# How to tell when pup needs more food for growth spurt?



## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Greetings all.

So, how do you know when your pup is having a growth spurt and therefore needs to eat a bit more than normal?

GSDs typically won't overeat and auto regulate better right? Righhttt?

🤣


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It's easy to tell: people will be saying, "Are you feeding that dog enough? He looks so skinny!"

During her growth spurt, I was giving Star about 5 cups of food a day, and you could STILL see all her ribs!
This was quite a bit more that the maximum recommended by the manufacturers of the food she was on.

When her growth slowed down, she began leaving food in her bowl.


As far as autoregulation goes, some dogs will...and some won't. Every time I see a fat animal (dog or cat) I ask the owner if they free-feed. The answer is almost always YES.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Growing pups can put on 2-3.5# a week on average. I have seen as much as 5# in one week. I don't play with food bag recommendations or meticulously measured foods. At that rate of growth, I look for a puppy that is satisfied with his meal. If he is frantically seeking kibble after a meal, I feed them.

IME, GSDs are hard gainers. If they are too lean as pups, they tend to not fill out as adults until much later, if at all. 

Puppies need good and adequate nutrition for proper growth, strong immune systems, and fat for a developing brain. Puppies should have a modicum of baby fat on them. It is normal and healthy. Don't be afraid to feed your pup.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm not the best one to ask since I have a monster pup that was all ribs and legs from 4-6 months and I had to feed up to 2.5c 3X per day of a quality puppy kibble. That;s a lot of food however I never would free feed and don't over feed.

My 80 pound 6 year old male eats just 2c 2X per day and my 8.5 month male is down to 2.5c 2X per day as he filled out (it took two months) and he's still very lean.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

If I am not mistaken, a friend’s GSD ate 7 lbs of raw food in one sitting.
Dogs will certainly overeat. They are opportunistic scavengers, designed to gorge and fast.
Just look at the dog. If he looks too thin, add a little more. But it is important to know what too thin really is.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Perfectly ok to see a dog’s ribs; never ok to see it’s backbone. I’ve always been guided by that, an abdominal tuck and muscle tone.

Of course, coat, teeth, eyes, rate of growth of nails - all are influencers, too.

I aim for this:










Try not to overthink it. With experience, it comes rather easily.

Best of luck to you and your pup.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i know you’re asking about feeding, but i’m just gonna say this...
would you expect the same body type from a human toddler, a preteen or teen and an adult?
yes there is a range but no pediatrician is going to compare a child to a grown man/woman.
feed your dog what it needs to develop! active puppies are very rarely overweight, but on the flip side, i personally don’t need to see a puppies ribs, regardless what they’re doing, especially one as young as yours.
frantic behavior, ravenous appetites, hard food taking, hyperactivity, reactivity, inability to focus - sure sometimes it’s genetics, sometimes it’s training, but sometimes these dogs are just *hungry*!


MineAreWorkingline said:


> Puppies need good and adequate nutrition for proper growth, strong immune systems, and fat for a developing brain. Puppies should have a modicum of baby fat on them. It is normal and healthy. Don't be afraid to feed your pup.


this!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A lot of people confuse a lean, muscular body with an appropriate ratio of body fat with being underweight. The two are not the same. In fact, they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. A dog should be well fed and maintain a lean, healthy state by the addition of proper exercise, not be underweight due to food restriction. 

Like Fodder stated, a puppy is supposed to be soft and floppy like a toddler. We don't put our young, fast growing children on rigid diets. We feed them a nutrient dense diet and then we send them out to play to burn off those calories.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i’ll also echo a couple of others.... don’t overthink it, when they start to look thin, add a little more food, and vice versa - growth spurts are not something you have to panic or try stay ahead of.... you’ll see when things need adjusting throughout your dogs life. i have an adult dog and at 7, i still adjust his food regularly based on the seasons, activity level and his behavior. if an ideal body condition score is 4-5, i _aim_ for 4.5... but realistically he hits all 3 of those numbers.

edit: another way to think about it... i’m heading out for a week long backpacking trip monday. i increased Keystones food starting yesterday and plan to keep him on that amount for the duration of the trip... not because it’ll be the end of the world if he sheds a couple lbs at the end of the week, but because he’ll feel better energy wise (avg 6-8 miles a day) and if he eats/drinks something that causes him to get sick/diarrhea on the trip, he also has a bit of “cushion”.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

OP, I know how you feel. I also worried if my puppy was getting enough food, and if I needed to feed her more because of a growth spurt. A couple of times, Juno was whiny (really whiny) and I realized I wasn't feeding her enough. 

I just did what every one else recommended, which is watch her tuck and ribs. She's 55 lbs and eats 4 cups of Fromm's grain free formula. That's almost twice the amount recommended on the package. I followed the breeder's instructions. Still, she is on the skinny side, but healthy. Alert, and happy as far as I can tell.

Whether she is getting enough food is a decision I make over days or a week. Also, because I train her with kibble, she does not get the same amount every day. I measure her four cups into a tupperware in the morning, so I know how much is she is getting.

GSDs are larger dogs, so a skinny or underfed dog is easier to catch and correct than, let's a say chihuahua.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Keep saying to yourself "feed the dog in front of you"
Only you can judge body composition, exercise levels, skin, teeth, eyes and overall health.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> . I followed the breeder's instructions. Still, she is on the skinny side, but healthy. Alert, and happy as far as I can tell.


I wonder if Robin said what she said to me when I picked up Hans: “I hope that everyone who sees your dog tells you he’s too skinny.” 😄


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

We've got him on two cups of Orijen large puppy for now. A third of that is for training and the rest is in his Kong in his crate when he goes in after his excursions, tug and marker charge.

Might up it to 2.5 cups over the next week then 👍 I know he's a pup but he seems verryyy food motivated. 

Thanks all! I wonder what I can overthink next 🤣


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> We've got him on two cups of Orijen large puppy for now. A third of that is for training and the rest is in his Kong in his crate when he goes in after his excursions, tug and marker charge.
> 
> Might up it to 2.5 cups over the next week then 👍 I know he's a pup but he seems verryyy food motivated.
> 
> Thanks all! I wonder what I can overthink next 🤣


high food motivation is great, it’ll make training a breeze. because he’s already showing this - i’d allow him at least 1 meal a day to enjoy just as a meal and not having to work for it..incl kongs.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Why is that?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Why is that?


isn’t it nice those days when your order takeout or come home to an already prepared meal and just get to relax and eat?


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

I run myself pretty hard TBH but ok sure I understand. 👍


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> I run myself pretty hard TBH but ok sure I understand. 👍


try relaxing sometime.....it’ll help with the overthinking too ;-)


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Lol! Why thank you.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Prepare your self for the growth spurt. For about a month, my pup was eating 7 cups of Fromm's kibble + 1 cup chopped roast chicken in three meals per day, a couple of eggs, some high-fat Greek yogurt, and 1/4 cup of peanut butter for a bedtime snack! Every day, I would just run my hand across his ribs, hips, and abdomen to make sure he wasn't getting to bony.

At 11 months, he is down to a little under 5 cups of Fromm's kibble and two tablespoons of peanut butter in a toy per day.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

What about the sternum? Can you judge their weight by feeling along the chest?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> What about the sternum? Can you judge their weight by feeling along the chest?


nothing should be boney or protruding!
hips, spine, sternum, occipital bone, shoulder blades...


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

My boy's skeleton grew faster than his muscles. His chest and shoulders felt kind of bony for a couple of months. At 11 months he is starting to grow into them.

His muscles are growing into his skeleton the same way his head grew into his giant ears. I looked pretty goofy as a kid as well. It took me a while to grow into my feet.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

davewis said:


> Prepare your self for the growth spurt. For about a month, my pup was eating 7 cups of Fromm's kibble + 1 cup chopped roast chicken in three meals per day, a couple of eggs, some high-fat Greek yogurt, and 1/4 cup of peanut butter for a bedtime snack! Every day, I would just run my hand across his ribs, hips, and abdomen to make sure he wasn't getting to bony.
> 
> At 11 months, he is down to a little under 5 cups of Fromm's kibble and two tablespoons of peanut butter in a toy per day.


Not much chance to get "too bony" on that diet. I thought you were going to say "I would just run my hand across his ribs, hips, and abdomen to make sure he wasn't getting to FAT."


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

WNGD said:


> "I would just run my hand across his ribs, hips, and abdomen to make sure he wasn't getting to FAT."


Yes, the growth spurt ended as quickly as it started. Pup was none too happy when his diet went back to normal when his neck started to get chubby.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

So, hold up.. there's only one growth spurt? Or more than one but they last a decent amount of time?
I'm sure our trainer said there may be multiple.. even a couple of days but "don't worry, he'll let you know when he needs to eat more."
I'm finding it confusing as we're supposed to let them cry it out in the crate and not encourage begging.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> So, hold up.. there's only one growth spurt? Or more than one but they last a decent amount of time?
> I'm sure our trainer said there may be multiple.. even a couple of days but "don't worry, he'll let you know when he needs to eat more."
> I'm finding it confusing as we're supposed to let them cry it out in the crate and not encourage begging.


What? You are supposed to let him cry it out in the crate? For what?


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What? You are supposed to let him cry it out in the crate? For what?


Yes. Because otherwise they learn that crying gets attention. This is what both the breeder and trainer told me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Yes. Because otherwise they learn that crying gets attention. This is what both the breeder and trainer told me.


That and a caveman club will usually get you anxiety, frustration and over arousal at the cost of an inability to learn in that state.

Try feeding your dog before you eat and crate him with a nice meaty bone while you eat. It encourages a state of calm and relaxation for both you and the puppy.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

I understand this but more than ever before in my life, I'm finding the amount of information and opinions out there very conflicting and difficult to filter. (Yes, I'm aware I ask a lot of questions here!)
They were both pretty firm on this - they both have great dogs that are trained to a really high level.

Agreed on the bone thing, though - I gave him a mini venison tendon the other night and holllyyy ****, haha.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Please don't read too much into my pup's appetite. From everything I have seen and heard he was an outlier. 80 pounds at 8 months and had the energy of a border collie on cocaine.

One thing I did to keep him busy was to toss his dry kibble around the room instead of feeding him in a bowl. Eating became a fun adventure. After a potty break, he was ready to settle in for a nap while the humans ate.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> I understand this but more than ever before in my life, I'm finding the amount of information and opinions out there very conflicting and difficult to filter. (Yes, I'm aware I ask a lot of questions here!)
> They were both pretty firm on this - they both have great dogs that are trained to a really high level.
> 
> Agreed on the bone thing, though - I gave him a mini venison tendon the other night and holllyyy ****, haha.


A lot depends on how you choose to raise and train your dog. A lot of the problems on this forum stem from puppies that have been encouraged to respond in a state of hyper arousal with owners later saying that the puppy has no off switch and can't calm down. 

What your breeder and trainer are recommending creates conflict and over arousal, a dog that doesn't *learn* to be calm and have an off switch. Next they will be recommending aversives such as prongs because your puppy can't settle down after you created the problem.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A lot depends on how you choose to raise and train your dog. A lot of the problems on this forum stem from puppies that have been encouraged to respond in a state of hyper arousal with owners later saying that the puppy has no off switch and can't calm down.
> 
> What your breeder and trainer are recommending creates conflict and over arousal, a dog that doesn't *learn* to be calm and have an off switch. Next they will be recommending aversives such as prongs because your puppy can't settle down after you created the problem.


They said off switch is a word or whatever when they go into the crate with food and calm down. 

So, what would you be suggesting?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> They said off switch is a word or whatever when they go into the crate with food and calm down.
> 
> So, what would you be suggesting?


You never clearly stated the problem or what you want for a terminal response unless I missed it. I am assuming that you want him to be able to relax in his crate while you enjoy your dinner. 

You need to crate train him There are lots of ways to do that feed him in his crate, toss treats in his crate, sneak high value treats into the crate for him to find... things that make the crate a good place to be. Then you can start closing the crate door when he is in it for just one second, then two seconds, and progress in increments. Don't be afraid to take a step or two back if your puppy shows stress. The puppy sets the pace. 

This method may take a little more time and work but you will build a stronger foundation to build on down the road, create a stronger and more trusting bond with him and the bonus is that you won't be creating problems that will need fixed down the road.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You never clearly stated the problem or what you want for a terminal response unless I missed it. I am assuming that you want him to be able to relax in his crate while you enjoy your dinner.
> 
> You need to crate train him There are lots of ways to do that feed him in his crate, toss treats in his crate, sneak high value treats into the crate for him to find... things that make the crate a good place to be. Then you can start closing the crate door when he is in it for just one second, then two seconds, and progress in increments. Don't be afraid to take a step or two back if your puppy shows stress. The puppy sets the pace.
> 
> This method may take a little more time and work but you will build a stronger foundation to build on down the road, create a stronger and more trusting bond with him and the bonus is that you won't be creating problems that will need fixed down the road.


Oh. Yeah, we do this. Lol. His Kong stays in there and he goes in every time with some sort of treat. He just spent the past 3 hours very quietly sleeping with my sister and I chatting in the lounge with him in crate.

He just seems to hate being alone in it. Half the time we'll put him in crate with loaded Kong and he is FIZZING to get in that crate. Then we go to leave and he's watching us like WHERE ARE YOU GOING.

It's his overnight loneliness that's tough.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Where do you keep his crate at night?

You should start closing the crate door for short periods of time when you are there. Build up time in increments. Then start doing things like walking out of the room and coming right back in with the crate door closed. Slowly build up time for being out of the room.

Make sure that you give him his loaded kong just before you close the door. In the beginning, when you are working on closing the door on him and the kong, when you open the door, remove the kong. Only give it back to him the next time that you close the door. Rinse and repeat. Do the same when you leave the room and come back and let him out. Take the kong out of the crate. He will start to come to associate his release from the crate with the removal of his goody filled kong. Hopefully he will start wanting to spend more time in the crate with his kong and he won't be so eager for you to come back and release him.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Repeat, where do you keep his crate at night? Apologies if you've answered this before.

Yes. you'll get conflicting answers from owners and each has to find what works for them I suppose.

Some use prong and e-collars, many (most?) don't.
Some crate some don't
Some crate in the kitchen, (most?) in the bedroom
Most use smaller crate and move up in size, some don't (my pup started in a 48" crate, no separation in the crate....zero accidents in the crate
Some even put the crate ON the bed 
Some use a lot of treats, some don't

Most all pups are going to whine a bit for the first few nights, much can be calmed just by seeing you, hearing your voice and a few fingers through the crate to feel you. Pups need to be let out for a bathroom break in the night for the first few days/weeks. Some say months, just not my experience.

The whining/crying you're talking about is crating during the day and the advice you're getting is good. In my opinion, a bit of whining on crating is quite natural at first but the old "let them cry it out in the basement/kitchen is cruel and unnecessary

Some have a lot of opinions too lol


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Repeat, where do you keep his crate at night? Apologies if you've answered this before.
> 
> Yes. you'll get conflicting answers from owners and each has to find what works for them I suppose.
> 
> ...


He was all good last night. He moved from out bedroom crated to lounge crated. First night absolute disaster. Last night great!

He is calming a lot. Continuing the crate games and trying not to move around so much.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

He's actually really good now.
He seems to be becoming more comfortable in his own skin, doesn't react to our every movement and is fine during the night now.

It's great. Except comfortable in his own skin also means he's very comfortable biting harder and harder. 🤣🤣🤣


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> He's actually really good now.
> He seems to be becoming more comfortable in his own skin, doesn't react to our every movement and is fine during the night now.
> 
> It's great. Except comfortable in his own skin also means he's very comfortable biting harder and harder. 🤣🤣🤣


Provide appropriate chew toys and don't forget to exercise him. There is no reason for him to use you for a chew toy.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Provide appropriate chew toys and don't forget to exercise him. There is no reason for him to use you for a chew toy.


He has his Kong and Safestick. We have his rags for tug and stuff but often he just wants to bite us - which requires pushing off/redirect so there is still contact for a moment.

And he gets his exercise, sure. Some exposure daily publicly but apart from that, lots of ball and tug for non repetitive stuff.

Got an agility tunnel and poles coming also as we are back into lockdown.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Your choice if you want him to chew on you or not.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your choice if you want him to chew on you or not.


Ah, so, is what you're saying that -your- dogs don't have an innate desire to bite on you and playmates?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Ah, so, is what you're saying that -your- dogs don't have an innate desire to bite on you and playmates?


I never mentioned my other dogs anywhere but now that you mentioned them, the pups prefer to play with each other but never have shown much of an inclination to bite the adults. When they did show the inclination to bite an adult dog, the adult dogs took the fun out of it.

And no, all in all my pups never had much of an inclination to bite me. It has happened on rare occasion but it usually only took one self metered correction, more rarely two, for it to never happen again.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Cool. Our pup wants to play with us a lot and we are redirecting but it's not always perfectly timed.

I'm afraid that we're not perfect. 😢


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Cool. Our pup wants to play with us a lot and we are redirecting but it's not always perfectly timed.
> 
> I'm afraid that we're not perfect. 😢


Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with you or your wife being imperfect, your words, but how you are playing with your puppy.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

When my pup was young I always had a pocket full of chew toys. That way when he showed signs of chewing, I had something appropriate to give him to play with. If I wasn't careful, pup could get a good nip in before I had grabbed a toy. Those baby teeth are sharp.

It took me a while to realize that all rough playing had to happen outside in the yard. A rambunctious puppy is adorable. Even 40 lbs of energetic German Shepard is a lot in the house. Over time he learned to turn it on and off as appropriate.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Your pup is old enough to have been taught No.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never mentioned my other dogs anywhere but now that you mentioned them, the pups prefer to play with each other but never have shown much of an inclination to bite the adults. When they did show the inclination to bite an adult dog, the adult dogs took the fun out of it.
> 
> And no, all in all my pups never had much of an inclination to bite me. It has happened on rare occasion but it usually only took one self metered correction, more rarely two, for it to never happen again.


Exactly. I'll never understand people allowing themselves to be mouthed, nipped or bitten. Those teeth get huge and fast. One or two appropriate swift corrections AND a redirection is all it should take. Don't give them flowers, a sausage or a toy alone and expect anything to change quickly if at all.

7 months later "how do you get a pup to stop biting"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WNGD said:


> Exactly. I'll never understand people allowing themselves to be mouthed, nipped or bitten. Those teeth get huge and fast. One or two appropriate swift corrections AND a redirection is all it should take. Don't give them flowers, a sausage or a toy alone and expect anything to change quickly if at all.
> 
> 7 months later "how do you get a pup to stop biting"


Bingo!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

NO excuse after about 12 weeks unless you really thought it was cute and unknowingly of otherwise, encouraged it


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

We are doing this. When we play it's tug - he tugs and plays fine but will target hand instead of rag sometimes. Or just happen to bite and it's not a result of us not trying to give other options.

I could be wrong but I believe we are doing this to keep his desire to bite sleeves and stuff up.

We're not allowing it because it's cute or we're lazy.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Sounds like they grow out of it.

Thanks for all the kind advice guys.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Sounds like they grow out of it.
> 
> Thanks for all the kind advice guys.


Well, a bunch of people told you the opposite of that but if you want to wait for a dog biting you and others to "grow out of it" all power to you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WNGD said:


> Well, a bunch of people told you the opposite of that but if you want to wait for a dog biting you and others to "grow out of it" all power to you.


I agree. I didn't read where growing out of it was the concensus.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Timeline: I signed up to GS forum -> asked questions -> got trainer -> continued to answer and engage here despite having trainer.

Look, it's all good.. I brought this entire specific issue up with her again and the breeder and she assured me again - we won't be letting him bite forever but we're trying to keep his motivation to play and engage up. Also, Nate Schoemer (recommended here) also says they grow out of it.

So, I appreciate the help. I really do - I'm trying to be polite and disengage on this one. 👍


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Timeline: I signed up to GS forum -> asked questions -> got trainer -> continued to answer and engage here despite having trainer.
> 
> Look, it's all good.. I brought this entire specific issue up with her again and the breeder and she assured me again - we won't be letting him bite forever but we're trying to keep his motivation to play and engage up. Also, Nate Schoemer (recommended here) also says they grow out of it.
> 
> So, I appreciate the help. I really do - I'm trying to be polite and disengage on this one. 👍


Fair enough. good luck.
But what a bunch of experienced owners are telling you (because you asked) is that you don't have to wait around for them to eventual.y grow out of it. Your call. 

But we answer that way because we see owner after owner come on here and ask how to stop their 7 month old or 9 month old to stop biting. I guess from now on we'll just tell them their pup will grow out of it.....


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

All good. I'm not upset with you or have a desire to not participate.
I realise that I asked but since I did, I got a trainer. 

I know you are only trying to help - I know how to stop biting now.


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