# Hmm... what do you guys think?



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Well, i have more questions lol. I've been doing a lot of research on bloodlines, and titles, pricing for certain lines and training etc. Though i'm becoming very drawn to Schutzhund... but (there normally always is one lol), i've been trying to get my fiance atleast semi involved in my research. Anyways, when i was showing him dogs from working lines (German, DDR etc), he thought they were appealing, then when i came across a german showline puppy he just loved the look of him. I get it, when we (me and my fiance) think about a german shepherd we normally think about a black/tan or black/red. I myself have always preferred what you would call a showline bred dog (as far as looks). But like i said i'm just getting more and more interested in Schutzhund, i'm mostly seeing sables and bi-color (and of course black lol) for working lines. 

Well here's the kicker... i just ran across a breeder who has a pair of black/red shepherds that produced a litter. The thing is, by looking at the dogs you'd assume showlines, (humped back, coloring, the way they stack). But when you look at the pedigree there all working titled (ScHH)? Is this common, if so would it be possible to get a showline "looking" dog but with the prey drive and nerves to compete as a working dog? The parents of the breeding are also both ScHH2 titled, im just kind of shocked. Could it be they are technically showline bred, just were able to succeed in ScHH? Would you recommend even considering buying this kind of puppy for ScHH, or possibly an adult. I feel bad thinking about picking one type of bloodline over the other because one is well... "nicer" looking in my eye then the other. But everybody wants the complete package, so if i could get the dog that appeals to me, my family and my competitive interest, should that be what i start looking for? :help:


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

WeLuvGSD said:


> Well here's the kicker... i just ran across a breeder who has a pair of black/red shepherds that produced a litter. The thing is, by looking at the dogs you'd assume showlines, (humped back, coloring, the way they stack). But when you look at the pedigree there all working titled (ScHH)? Is this common, if so would it be possible to get a showline "looking" dog but with the prey drive and nerves to compete as a working dog? The parents of the breeding are also both ScHH2 titled, im just kind of shocked. Could it be they are technically showline bred, just were able to succeed in ScHH? Would you recommend even considering buying this kind of puppy for ScHH, or possibly an adult. I feel bad thinking about picking one type of bloodline over the other because one is well... "nicer" looking in my eye then the other. But everybody wants the complete package, so if i could get the dog that appeals to me, my family and my competitive interest, should that be what i start looking for? :help:



Under the German system, both working lines and show lines must title in Schutzhund in order to be approved for breeding. So naturally you see a lot of German show lines with SchH titles in their pedigree. However, if you watch a lot of show line dogs compete in Schutzhund, and you watch a lot of working line dogs compete in Shutzhund, you will start to feel like you are watching two different sports. 

What do you call the guy who graduated lowest in his class in medical school? 
"Doctor." 

All SchHIII's are not created equal. One guy might be starting quarterback for Notre Dame, one guy might be starting quarter back for Our Lady of Perpetual Sorrows University. Does that mean they're both equally good at football, or both equally likely to get a pro contract?

Can you do SchH with a show line dog? Absolutely. But if your goal is to do very very well, score high, and get into the higher levels, you'll want a working line dog. If you want a black and red dog who is also able to compete in the sport, a show line dog should do well, especially if you get one whose parents and grandparents did it. Also, if you are new to the sport, starting with a working line dog will probably be easier than starting with a show line dog.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no they are all titled in sch h which may mean something or not . This is a breeding prerequisite in Germany.
Know what you want . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I meant to add if you have the pedigree or the name of the parents post it on the forum. 
A decision can't and won't be made for you. The dogs might be out of this world ideal for someone and a total write off for another.
Know what you want.
Carmen
http:/www.carmspack.com


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Ok, thanks for the information. I was mostly going to start out in the future with a female to get in to Schutzhund for well just fun, but with the intentions of possibly becoming a breeder later on (if the bitch proves to be breeding worthy). But to be honest, IMO if i were to become a breeder i'd want to bring Schutzhund to a higher level in my breeding program like you suggested, so if that case were to inquire i would want working line bred dogs. To be honest im looking threw pedigreedatabase at the puppies, and it seems breeders are trying to pass show line bred dogs as working dogs? I dont know if i consider this opening the yes to buyer of the full potential or trying to trick people in to believing there buying a working bred dog?...


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

May I suggest something?

Go spend a lot of time around dogs. It doesn't sound like you know exactly what you want, and --forgive me-- it doesn't sound like you know a lot about this yet. The best way to learn is not to ask questions on a forum, but to go visit your local Schutzhund club, watch the different dogs work, and talk to their owners. After you watch the dogs for a while, you'll start to get a much clearer idea of what kind of dogs you like and what kind you really don't like. Then, once you start to get a good idea of what you like, you can talk to people about where they got those dogs.


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I meant to add if you have the pedigree or the name of the parents post it on the forum.
> A decision can't and won't be made for you. The dogs might be out of this world ideal for someone and a total write off for another.
> Know what you want.
> Carmen
> http:/www.carmspack.com


Didn't see your post until after i already posted. Anyways, here is the Dam: 
*SG Baylee vom Smalley 
*

she said the sire is listed on pedigreedatabase as well (atleast that's what it said on her website) but i couldnt find him, i only found the dam. Anyways, his name is Garth vom Mittlewest.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

And don't become a breeder till you really really know what you are doing.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> May I suggest something?
> 
> Go spend a lot of time around dogs. It doesn't sound like you know exactly what you want, and --forgive me-- it doesn't sound like you know a lot about this yet. The best way to learn is not to ask questions on a forum, but to go visit your local Schutzhund club, watch the different dogs work, and talk to their owners. After you watch the dogs for a while, you'll start to get a much clearer idea of what kind of dogs you like and what kind you really don't like. Then, once you start to get a good idea of what you like, you can talk to people about where they got those dogs.


I plan on it, i plan on joining United Schutzhund Clubs Of American and going to local shows to watch. I've also been watching a lot of online videos (which got me interested in Schutzhund in the first place) .


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dam:
SG Baylee vom Smalley - German shepherd dog

Sire:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=649630


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> And don't become a breeder till you really really know what you are doing.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Dont worry, i probably wont, and if i did, it would be after i had a lot of experience in the GSD industry in general, as well as having already had experience with titling. But everybody's got a dream . I dont plan on being next on the BYB list, i have no intentions of rushing, i honestly dont plan on owning a GSD for awhile. I want to be 100% i know what my goals are with my future dog before i purchase one.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

roached show lines. look at the dogs running in the ring, The back peaks like a triangle , a pyramid shape. Look at the front , restricted , no reach , shoulder not opening ,
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> roached show lines. look at the dogs running in the ring, The back peaks like a triangle , a pyramid shape. Look at the front , restricted , no reach , shoulder not opening ,
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I figured that out that they are showline bred dogs , i was just wondering what people think as far as a showline bred dog excelling in Schutzhund .


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a different take on it. Working line people who compete in Schutzhund make that their focus. For the showline dog, Schutzhund titles are just a small part of what they do. The dogs must have an endurance test, and they must run around and around the ring pulling out for long periods of time without showing any signs of fatigue. And at the sieger show, the must pass a protection test, but a pass is a pass, and if they pass, they are then placed in order of their overall structure and perhaps their progeny groups. 

A SchHIII is a SchHIII whether your score is at the minimum or the maximum. 

So a showline dog owner will train their dog, but they are going to have a different focus than the working line people. 

I personally think all around the German showline dogs are the best dogs for pets, for performance, for entry level schutzhund, and the working line dogs are perhaps better for full fledged working -- police dog, guardian, etc, or schutzhund competition. But then I am a little teensy bit prejudiced.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Selzer I had five or six dogs with the AD endurance test title . The oldest one being over 10 years of age . EACH time I have gone the ones who you would expect to do well "conformation" focus , have a hard time, get pulled etc. The last one was with Kilo at 10 years of age -- and he was so far ahead that when I returned to the driveway of the club's field , I dismounted the bike and waited hoping I was at the right place. 

Endurance is very important for working group . 

The BEST dog for entry level schutzhund or any other work or home enjoyment is a calm stable secure dog where ever it comes from.

Carmen
http;//www.carmspack.com


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> A SchHIII is a SchHIII whether your score is at the minimum or the maximum.


We could start a whole darn 'nother thread around this statement right here. 



selzer said:


> But then I am a little teensy bit prejudiced.


We all are. Carmen breeds working line dogs. I'll always try to steer pet homes towards rescue first, but I like the working dogs also. Everybody has their favorite; the OP just needs to figure out what hers is.


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> We all are. Carmen breeds working line dogs. I'll always try to steer pet homes towards rescue first, but I like the working dogs also. Everybody has their favorite; the OP just needs to figure out what hers is.


Thank you Emoore that was my point to starting this thread lol. It will really help my direction in what kind of GSD i want by knowing if i would be able to excell in showing Schutzhund with a showline bred dog . I still have plenty of thinking to do, im in no hurry.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> Selzer I had five or six dogs with the AD endurance test title . The oldest one being over 10 years of age . EACH time I have gone the ones who you would expect to do well "conformation" focus , have a hard time, get pulled etc. The last one was with Kilo at 10 years of age -- and he was so far ahead that when I returned to the driveway of the club's field , I dismounted the bike and waited hoping I was at the right place.
> *
> Endurance is very important for working group* .
> 
> ...


I never said it was not. But a showline person who shows their dog is going to be more concerned with how the dog pulls out and displays itself in the ring, then they are on the schutzhund field. Because a title is a titles, I II or III, whether you earn your title with top scores or passing scores, but only one dog goes VA1 and one bitch goes VA1, and only a handful get VA ratings. Not saying they are better than your working lines, but those ratings are not based on their schutzhund scores. They are based on what the judge sees in the ring. 

So I think the focus is different. Yes, they want a dog with good nerve that they can title without major headaches, but they want a dog that is impressive in the ring first. 

Here in the US, while I am taking my pup through Star puppy, basic obedience, CGC, the showline puppies are going to conformation type classes, getting handled, getting handed off, showing their teeth, and getting their berries checked. In the end, my therapy dog might shove his tail between his legs after getting his berries checked for the first time, while a dog raised with that in mind will take it without any outward signs. 

I think it is silly for working line people to diss the showlines and showlines to turn their nose up at the working lines, for Obedience people to turn their noses up at the Rally people, for schutzhund people to turn their nose up at AKC performance events. For performance people to diss the show people and for show people to do likewise to the performance people. It is all so petty. 

We all have the only dogs that should continue on the breed. Yes, the show people believe their dogs have the proper conformation and therefore, their dogs are proper and should be bred. Schutzhund people think their dogs best match what the breed was intended for and no other dogs should be bred. 

We hear people say the whole dog, the whole dog, but rarely do they put their money where their mouth is. They will take the dog that does well in their area of focus and use it for breeding even if they cannot finish it in shows, and they will blame one thing or the other. 

In the end there are showline people that want nothing do do with working lines, and working line people that want nothing to do with showlines. Ok. I can get that. But do we constantly have to duke it out all the time?

Schutzhund may have been created as a breed testing tool for GSDs, but if showline dogs gain titles, then suddenly the testing venue is not good enough, because everyone knows that the only valid dogs out there are in the working lines. 

It is unreal. Reading the posts makes me completely dislike working line dogs. Hearing the showlines be dissed for roaches or angulation makes me want to come on and say, something just as nasty about the working line dogs' shape. It is sad that this forum contributes to the chasm between the lines.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> It is sad that this forum contributes to the chasm between the lines.


I'm glad someone finally said that. I've seen showlines dissed, called crippled, and even an "ewww" in there.
I have the worst showline, a dreaded American. Even worse.
I have to say, I had hopped this forum was different, but sadly I see it's not.
It's one thing to dislike a certain line, it's another to insult and demean it.
How can you claim to love the breed and insult and hate different lines?

There's division within our own breed and I find that so sad.


----------



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

selzer said:


> I never said it was not. But a showline person who shows their dog is going to be more concerned with how the dog pulls out and displays itself in the ring, then they are on the schutzhund field. Because a title is a titles, I II or III, whether you earn your title with top scores or passing scores, but only one dog goes VA1 and one bitch goes VA1, and only a handful get VA ratings. Not saying they are better than your working lines, but those ratings are not based on their schutzhund scores. They are based on what the judge sees in the ring.
> 
> So I think the focus is different. Yes, they want a dog with good nerve that they can title without major headaches, but they want a dog that is impressive in the ring first.
> 
> ...


Best post I've read all day!! :thumbup:


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> I think it is silly for working line people to diss the showlines and showlines to turn their nose up at the working lines, for Obedience people to turn their noses up at the Rally people, for schutzhund people to turn their nose up at AKC performance events. For performance people to diss the show people and for show people to do likewise to the performance people. It is all so petty.


Agreed


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The truth hurts...


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Before everyone flies off an different tangents - the OP is asking about getting a dog for Schutzhund - 

To the OP: your best bet is to get a working line. Even those of us whose dogs are pets first, Schutzhund dogs second, will go for working lines, much higher chance of getting a dog with the right drives and the desire to do the work. 

Most show lines will barely do Schutzhund, if at all, but there are some show line breeders out there that do still work hard to preserve that working ability in their lines, so if you are adamant on the black and red, you can ask for recommendations and people here can help you out. 

I know when I first saw a sable, I thought it looked "weird", wasn't used to that look in GSDs at all. But the more sables I saw, the more pictures shared on line, the more I liked them, until the sable became my ideal of the quintessential GSD  .

So I would say find a breeder that produces the type of dog that you are looking for in character and temperament, one that will be a joy for a newbie to take to a club and learn about Schutzhund - it will be nothing but frustrating and disappointing if after all this work to find a breeder you end up with a dog that may or may not work out for you. And whatever colour or pattern your puppy is, you will end up falling in love and adoring him just as much, and will make you proud.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If this dog is the beginning of your foundation as a breeding kennel(maybe the dog won't be bred, but you'll gain much knowledge with the first GSD you own) take a year or so and travel to different events to see the differences in the lines and what their strengths/weeknesses may be in the venues you are attending.
Then you look at the kennel names of the dogs that you are attracted to. By that time you'll have a much better idea of what you want in your future. 
Just take lots of time and research, research research....because we all have our favorites as you've seen on these three pages.


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks castlemaid and onyxgirl. My biggest fear would be just that, spending all my time and money on a GSD and it not turn out to be what i wanted, or be competitive in what i want. I'm thinking about e-mailing a few breeders who title there showline bred GSD's in Schutzhund and asking some questions. I'm really hoping to go to some Schutzhund shows, i seen a few listed on USCA, it might require some traveling but i think it would be a lot of fun and give me a lot of the much needed information and experience i need


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I've met a nice showline that would be good for SchH. Very nice dog. He's from TeMar kennels.


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

It is because I love the breed so very much that I find certain things to be so disgusting. If it's any consolation, I firmly believe probably roughly 95% of working line "breeders" have no business breeding either. There are dogs with form for function AND working ability AND temperament, and they do not happen by accident. It is absolutely inexcusable that so few breed for that total package.


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

GSDO7 i found TeMar Kennels site (if its in Canby, OR anyways). There dogs are outstanding, i love the looks of them, she seems to do great in Schutzhund with them. Which is what i'm looking towards doing .


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would definitely go out and see dogs. Also, make sure when listening to advice that those giving the advice actually have experience working and titling dogs in SchH, no matter the lines.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

First off, if this is your first GSD (?) or at least GSD you plan on doing SchH with...being "competitive" in the sense that--what? You'll be going to nationals? Shouldn't even be on your radar. Of course if you end up with a super-star that's great, but it takes a lot of forces aligning correctly to really make an amazing dog.

You're interested in SchH and you want to become a breeder. The pretty colors should be the absolute last thing on your mind. If you TRULY want to do SchH and you TRULY want to try and be competitive--you need to go for working lines. Yes, we can argue all day about showlines vs. working lines, but the bottom line is that the BEST SchH dogs in the world are working lines. So, you need to decide--be a "jack of all trades, master of none" (if you're to go by the description of showlines that selzer is giving) or do you want to one day be up on the podium at WUSV?

I personally think that worrying about getting a foundation bitch shouldn't be on your radar. Just work on working with a reputable breeder to get you the absolute best dog for your situation...one that is going to be easy, fun, and stable for you to learn on.

Also, I'd hook up with a SchH club so you can get a feel for what types of dogs that you do or don't like WORKING. Not for looks.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

WeLuvGSD said:


> I'm really hoping to go to some Schutzhund shows


FYI they're called "trials" not "shows." Wouldn't want you to show up sounding like a noob.


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> First off, if this is your first GSD (?) or at least GSD you plan on doing SchH with...being "competitive" in the sense that--what? You'll be going to nationals? Shouldn't even be on your radar. Of course if you end up with a super-star that's great, but it takes a lot of forces aligning correctly to really make an amazing dog.
> 
> You're interested in SchH and you want to become a breeder. The pretty colors should be the absolute last thing on your mind. If you TRULY want to do SchH and you TRULY want to try and be competitive--you need to go for working lines. Yes, we can argue all day about showlines vs. working lines, but the bottom line is that the BEST SchH dogs in the world are working lines. So, you need to decide--be a "jack of all trades, master of none" (if you're to go by the description of showlines that selzer is giving) or do you want to one day be up on the podium at WUSV?
> 
> ...


By competitive i mean that they will excel in ScHH and have the nerves and drive for it. No this wont be my first GSD, but yes it will be my first time in ScHH. I actually found somebody who breeds and competes in ScHH not far from me and she offers training. So i'm going to contact her and see if possibly i can come out and watch her training sessions or meet her dogs. As far as being my foundation bitch, It's not as if im out to buy a dog and turn her in to some kind of breeding machine. But i would like to buy a bitch who has the bloodlines, temperament and ability to be a breeder. Why not start out with the best dog you can get, if i can afford to get a great female who has a great potential in being a foundation bitch, why not get her? I've been looking and normally the price between show and pet is a few hundred, so if i were to start out with a pet, and then later decide i want a foundation bitch, instead of paying the extra money in the first place to get the bitch with the potential. I'd have to spend "thousands" more to get a second female. Thats not to mean i think buying a pet would be pointless or useless. I'm just trying to think wisely as far as investing my savings in to a GSD. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Could you pm me the club/breeder you are going to visit? Or share it here if you want.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

WeLuvGSD said:


> As far as being my foundation bitch, It's not as if im out to buy a dog and turn her in to some kind of breeding machine. But i would like to buy a bitch who has the bloodlines, temperament and ability to be a breeder. Why not start out with the best dog you can get, if i can afford to get a great female who has a great potential in being a foundation bitch, why not get her?


Because you are going to make most of your mistakes with your first dog. I am not a breeder, but I've seen this question asked several times, and the experienced, responsible breeders say that your foundation bitch should be your second or third well-bred, competitive dog. . . not your first. Your first one, you get her, you love her, you train her as best you can, and you make a lot of mistakes. Then when you're ready to actually buy your foundation female, you have a 100x better idea of what you want and what you're looking for, you have more contacts with other breeders, people take you more seriously, and a bunch of your biggest mistakes are behind you.


----------



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

If your real intention is Schutzhund you NEED a working line dog- reread GSD Elsa's post because it is spot on. I like the pigmentation of show dogs too, but if your looking for a sport dog your best chances of ending up with what you want is to go with a well known working line breeder. Some showline dogs get Schutz titles and some are actually pretty good, but if you do a little reading here on the downfall of Schutzhund you'll see why it is getting easier for these showline dogs to compete against the working class. If you want to dabble in schutz or are happy eking through get a pretty dog...if you want to kick some tail get a dog meant for the sport!


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

carmspack said:


> The BEST dog for entry level schutzhund or any other work or home enjoyment is a calm stable secure dog where ever it comes from.
> 
> Carmen
> http;//www.carmspack.com


 I think this statement is worth repeating. 

If the OP and his SO likes the looks of showlines and only thinks about SchH with her SO not completely on board then I would go with the showline in this case (even though I personally would not get a showline, just not my cup of tea).


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Could you pm me the club/breeder you are going to visit? Or share it here if you want.



Sure, her name is Tammy Blackford, i found her on United Schutzhund Clubs of American she's listed on there as a trainer.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

people like certain things within the breed. people
dislike certain things in the breed. all of the
different people and different thoughts still love
the GSD. you look at all of it and learn from it.
people saying what seems to be mean, insulting,
hatefull, discriminating, looking down on or whatever
doesn't really matter. the GSD's aren't effected by
peoples verbal opinions.



GSDGunner said:


> I'm glad someone finally said that. I've seen showlines dissed, called crippled, and even an "ewww" in there.
> I have the worst showline, a dreaded American. Even worse.
> I have to say, I had hopped this forum was different, but sadly I see it's not.
> It's one thing to dislike a certain line, it's another to insult and demean it.
> ...


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> people like certain things within the breed. people
> dislike certain things in the breed. all of the
> different people and different thoughts still love
> the GSD. you look at all of it and learn from it.
> ...


I'm sorry, but it does really matter. Verbal attacks to demean or insult might not affect the dog, but there's a human on the other end and I think people forget that.
Insult my dog, you've insulted me.
It's a little hard not to take it personally. I dislike certain lines, but would never diss someone's dog because they own one. 
We're supposed to be united in our love of the GSD. I didn't realize that love had to be split between lines. That's just sad to me.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

WeLuvGSD said:


> By competitive i mean that they will excel in ScHH and have the nerves and drive for it. No this wont be my first GSD, but yes it will be my first time in ScHH. I actually found somebody who breeds and competes in ScHH not far from me and she offers training. So i'm going to contact her and see if possibly i can come out and watch her training sessions or meet her dogs. As far as being my foundation bitch, It's not as if im out to buy a dog and turn her in to some kind of breeding machine. But i would like to buy a bitch who has the bloodlines, temperament and ability to be a breeder. Why not start out with the best dog you can get, if i can afford to get a great female who has a great potential in being a foundation bitch, why not get her? I've been looking and normally the price between show and pet is a few hundred, so if i were to start out with a pet, and then later decide i want a foundation bitch, instead of paying the extra money in the first place to get the bitch with the potential. I'd have to spend "thousands" more to get a second female. Thats not to mean i think buying a pet would be pointless or useless. I'm just trying to think wisely as far as investing my savings in to a GSD. I hope that makes sense.


 
Hmmm...no...most breeders have all their puppies in the litter at the same price................

I'm not suggesting you get a "pet" quality dog. I'm suggesting that you get a dog that is going to be good for a person doing SchH for the first time. A litter is going to have those dogs that should be active compansions. They might have dogs that are going to be great for novice sport homes. And they might have dogs that a breeder thinks belongs in a serious working home. A good breeder will place a dog according to your wants, needs, and experience. Yes, get a SchH prospect. Might she be the perfect bitch to start a kennel? Possibly. But most breeders don't start with their first dogs they compete with. They learn from those dogs. Learn the ins and outs of the sport world and bloodlines. Hopefully have a solid dog to make mistakes on (as Emoore said)....and THEN move onto breeding with other dogs down the line.

Of COURSE there is always the chance this might be a perfect dog to start a kennel. But you're putting the cart before the horse a little bit.

Also.............if you're concerned about the price of having to purchase 2 dogs potentially....well, I guess I'll leave it up to the breeders to talk about the money that goes into it. The $1500 you are likely going to spend on a dog is a drop in the bucket of what it's going to cost to even get one dog to being ready for breeding.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

See , the answer I gave you was not biased as GSD07 pointed out. I said , The BEST dog for entry level schutzhund or any other work or home enjoyment is a calm stable secure dog where ever it comes from.

How is that biased. If you can from the show lines , more power to you . If you can from the sport lines / working lines , good , tell me where.

You said , the gsd industry. Ah ha . Breeding is not an industry. That is the problem. That is the approach of bybs and mass producers , no matter what kennel names they go under. You are not just filling in requisitions for numbers.

Breeding when done correctly is a science and an art.

GSD's in particular need lots of personal attention . 
Until you really know the breed and pedigrees and have an understanding you can't determine who will be that one great foundation bitch.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The pricing difference for pet and for breeding you are talking about is often seen from showline breeders. Big commercial breeders at that, who pump out litter after litter from many a breeding pair, don't do much about working their dogs themselves, rely on the titles and ancestors of their breeding dogs to justify their high prices and odd pricing levels, and use words like "companion/pet/protecton", "select show quality" and "excellent, world-class, schutzhund/show potential" to market their dogs and appeal to those who are looking for prestige. Some of these breeders are selling pups from a "pet quality" dog starting at 2000$ to their "elite" hand-picked selection for up to 5000$ or more. (note that these are puppies out of the same litter, if the litter lacks this much uniformity, then one has to question the success of their breeding program). 

If you seek out small hobby working line or show line breeders, you won't find this kind of hoopla and marketing ploys. What you will find is pricing between 1000 to 2000 dollars. Normally males/females pet/schutzhund potential will be priced the same - and they will be pick of the litter in the sense that the breeder, with their years of experience in evaluating and placing puppies, will be able to pick the best puppy for your wants, needs, and experience level. 

So agree with GSDElsa, though I understand your thinking, the monetary "extra" you are thinking about for first getting a "learning" dog then moving on to a "breeding" dog should not be an issue if you go with a small reputable breeder. 

I'd stay away from breeders who have such pricing policies as the example I listed above, and then you can concentrate on getting a great dog to learn the ropes with, instead of worrying about the cost outlay to get you to your breeding goals.


----------



## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> I never said it was not. But a showline person who shows their dog is going to be more concerned with how the dog pulls out and displays itself in the ring, then they are on the schutzhund field. Because a title is a titles, I II or III, whether you earn your title with top scores or passing scores, but only one dog goes VA1 and one bitch goes VA1, and only a handful get VA ratings. Not saying they are better than your working lines, but those ratings are not based on their schutzhund scores. They are based on what the judge sees in the ring.
> 
> So I think the focus is different. Yes, they want a dog with good nerve that they can title without major headaches, but they want a dog that is impressive in the ring first.
> 
> ...


great post !!


----------



## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

GSDGunner said:


> I'm glad someone finally said that. I've seen showlines dissed, called crippled, and even an "ewww" in there.
> I have the worst showline, a dreaded American. Even worse.
> I have to say, I had hopped this forum was different, but sadly I see it's not.
> It's one thing to dislike a certain line, it's another to insult and demean it.
> ...


I too own a ASL, I have basically stopped posting on this forum , every time I do , It's a bashing fest.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

horsegirl said:


> I too own a ASL, I have basically stopped posting on this forum , every time I do , It's a bashing fest.



I don't think it is "hate" - it is disgust and sadness that the breed has been so disfigured and lost the working ability because of the fashion of the show ring...and trust me, it is true in the European show ring as well - but not to the same extreme. I have had pet people tell me right out, they like the GSD for its looks, but not the "crippled ones" but they want a Lab or poodle in personality...so the BYB wins again! And then the ASL people do not understand that they HAVE lost the working ability, that they HAVE reconformed the breed into something that most lay people find distasteful. There is no objectivity - and that is NOT limited to ASL people sadly. LOL maybe me too, as no one will ever convince me that ANY ASL or WGSL is more gorgeous than Xito Maineiche or Paska Salztalblick or Nolan alten Wingertshaus or Eyko Morfelder Land or Buster Adelsmanfelderland!!!

And as far as HATE ???? From personal experience, this is even more prevalent coming from some of the ASL breeders towards the European dogs/breeders - 

What I feel badly about is the dogs themselves - how can they be happy when they fall over when they run (an AKC Champion), or when they are fearful and nervy???? It is not their fault that their breeders are type/kennel blind or misguided!

Lee


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think all breeders should strive to produce noble, loyal, courageous, dogs regardless of color or lines. I think breeders should be versed in simple genetic facts on breeding so that bloodlines don't get "bottlenecked" and then genetic recessives start to dominate, regardless of color or lines. Personally, Black and red is my favorite color in GS, but because of genetic "bottlenecking" of the dogs today I won't get one because it increases the probability of introducing concentrated doses of recessives that are hard to balance out or eliminate. So does that make me a basher of the black and red dogs or an intelligent breeder based on genetics. 
I started a post on excessive "prey drive" in working lines harming the breed....more drive than brains as I phrase it. So now I am bashing the working lines...the true breeders on this board acknowledged this occurrence, the workingline breeders that do this, got offended. Whew!! So I guess I shouldn't own either working or show because I criticize them when they go too far in one direction. 
The OP should go out to trials and shows and see the dogs in both venues and give yourself at least three times of each....I am sure your eyes will tell you much better than the internet chatter and sobbing.
In the end, a good GS is a good GS and as long as its intelligent, loyal, courageous, noble and loving, this is what the breed is about. If you are breeding these type of dogs, Bravo!, regardless of the lines. If the dogs being bred don't possess these traits ...then shame on you for breeding away from what the breed should be and hiding behind indignation.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I think all breeders should strive to produce noble, loyal, courageous, dogs regardless of color or lines.


Cliff, I have to admit that words like "loyal" and "noble" in breeder websites have always irritated me because I see them as fluff words for breeders who aren't really accomplishing anything. (not to mention that they're often followed by "large" and "straight backed") 

Sure, everybody wants a dog that is noble and loyal, but how do you prove or select for this? Has a dog ever been kicked out of a breeding program for disloyalty? Or being a little too low-class? I've also noticed that if you ask 5 different people the definition of loyalty in a dog, you'll get five different answers. 

However, when somebody that I respect uses words like this, I'm willing to listen and learn. So how do you define and select for these characteristics?


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> The pricing difference for pet and for breeding you are talking about is often seen from showline breeders. Big commercial breeders at that, who pump out litter after litter from many a breeding pair, don't do much about working their dogs themselves, rely on the titles and ancestors of their breeding dogs to justify their high prices and odd pricing levels, and use words like "companion/pet/protecton", "select show quality" and "excellent, world-class, schutzhund/show potential" to market their dogs and appeal to those who are looking for prestige. Some of these breeders are selling pups from a "pet quality" dog starting at 2000$ to their "elite" hand-picked selection for up to 5000$ or more. (note that these are puppies out of the same litter, if the litter lacks this much uniformity, then one has to question the success of their breeding program).
> 
> If you seek out small hobby working line or show line breeders, you won't find this kind of hoopla and marketing ploys. What you will find is pricing between 1000 to 2000 dollars. Normally males/females pet/schutzhund potential will be priced the same - and they will be pick of the litter in the sense that the breeder, with their years of experience in evaluating and placing puppies, will be able to pick the best puppy for your wants, needs, and experience level.
> 
> ...



Does anybody have links to some of these breeders? Maybe im looking in the wrong place because im not finding any. I did get some recommendations on this site, but they to charge different prices between pet and show? I think i did find one the other day on Hoobly. I think they were showline pups though, and they wanted $1,800 for every puppy.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Does anybody have links to some of these breeders?


I don't want to start a flame-war on your thread, so I sent you a couple of links via PM.



> I think they were showline pups though, and they wanted $1,800 for every puppy.


That's good, and a decent price for showlines. But as others have said, the best thing to do is to go out there, and see the different dogs working in different venues, including Schutzhund, and talk to the people who are involved.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Emoore, Do you notice I also always insert courageous and noble. It has been my experience that if a German Shepherd is courageous and noble...then it can be trained to work. Might not be a good police dog, but would make a good seeing eye dog and that's okay for me. I mean I could go into specific detail about traits, but in general the breed has always been courageous and noble. The breeders that produce dogs that are fearful, overly aggressive, hyper, and lacking nerve, are not producing good German Shepherds.Might be nice dogs, but they aren't good specimens of German Shepherds...now if people can't or won't understand that; I question their love for the INTEGRITY of the breed. This holds for any lines! If the line you like happens to have more of these traits then should pop up only occaisonally, then don't hate Cliff, question the breeding practices of these breeders...again for the integrity of the breed. I don't dislike any lines, actually I don't believe in lines, I just have little patience for breeders that produce dogs that are not noble and courageous among other things. Afterall, isn't this what the dog was made to be.....the quality of the breed is more important than people's feelings to me!!


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> That's good, and a decent price for showlines. But as others have said, the best thing to do is to go out there, and see the different dogs working in different venues, including Schutzhund, and talk to the people who are involved.


I found a local trial on USA, its in May so i will hopefully be attending it. :happyboogie:


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

WeLuvGSD, I am sending you a PM.
Sheilah


----------



## WeLuvGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

sit said:


> WeLuvGSD, I am sending you a PM.
> Sheilah


Responded


----------

