# Specifics?



## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

I'm wondering just how specific you can get when looking for a pup and if these traits are realistic. Also, would a dog with traits like these turn out the way an average dog owner like me thinks and hopes they will? I plan on getting a German Shepherd puppy and these traits are what I hope to ask for with the intent of waiting until the perfect pup was born to get them:

*1. Even-tempered as well as stable and sound.* | This is the temperament I assumed a dog I plan to do Schutzhund would need? Please, please tell me if I'm wrong so I can change this.

*2. Alpha material; tolerant, fair, respectful, assertive, patient.* | If everything works out well, I plan on getting a pup from this dog ( I want two GSDs ) and having dogs after him so I just feel a personality this would really help raise future dogs. It isn't necessary, just something I'd like. Tell me if I'm wrong about my initial conclusion!

*3. Reserved and tranquil attitude.* | I'd actually like a dog that was reserved and didn't warm up to others that easy but was still tranquil when "strangers" were around. One who isn't barky or ready to bite, but also - and I use this term loosely - no Golden Retriever. I don't want a dog eagerly running up to people, ready to jump in the car with them. I'm almost sure how social a dog is, has to due to their genetics so I'm curious to see if this is something a breeder would be able to see in a young puppy.-- I also know training can affect how reserved a dog is, but still.

*4. Clear ball and prey drive with a prominent off-switch.* | I know for a fact that breeders can test drive and see this in puppies early on, but I'm curious if the off-switch is something detectable and can be confirmed. Can drive and off-switch change as the dog matures?

*5. Doesn’t turn down a play session with littermates, but may not initiate it.* | This is something I just thought would go into his reserved attitude and how social he'd become, but it's not a necessity. Tell me if I'm wrong!

*6. Playful with littermates but respects space.* | With this, I was just thinking he wouldn't grow to be a very pushy dog and would respect the space of others. I've seen pushy puppies grow up to be dominant and really rude-- I do know training can curve this, but it really is genetics. Tell me if I'm wrong about any of this!

*7. Very observant, attentive, and clearly interested in what the handler has to offer; stays close to them.* | Thinking this would be an amazing quality for a dog trained in any sport-- Schutzhund especially.

*8. Interacts less with littermates when out and about. Seems more interested in interacting with handler and other things more than littermates.* | I'm just thinking a dog like this would grow up with little interest in other dogs making training easier, but I know it can always be taught in so it isn't a necessity-- I would still like feedback on if that were true or not though.

*9. Cleary confident when approached or approaching.* | I assume this would help in Schutzhund and I know confidence is in the temperament standard. Would a breeder be able to test for something like this and is it... "confirmable"? I'm just thinking because they're around their siblings it may just be because it knows it has backup or something.

*10. Watchful of surroundings.* | I'm assuming a pup showing this trait while young would grow into an excellent guard.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Totally unrealistic


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Totally unrealistic


Oof....well then. Your answer was somewhat helpful. Only answered one question, but it answered something so I guess that's good. Hopefully a breeder will be able to evaluate me and find a dog that suits me and my needs. Thanks!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Puppies change and you won't know what you have until some maturity develops and depending on the quality of training and upbringing they have. You are ascribing human traits to dogs. When looking for a sport dog, I wanting some craziness, not even tempered. That will come with maturity and training (if done correctly.) Alpha material? You won't find a true alpha dog. Fair, respectful, tranquil, reserved and a sport prospect? Respect is learned. An off switch is also taught unless the dog is hyper which is different from high drive. Dogs are not rude. People are rude. Staying close to the handler is the opposite of what some sports require. Confidence can change in a pup, just like many other traits. I would start over and determine more clearly what your goals for your dog will be and simplify what traits you hope to obtain. Repeat breedings will give you a better idea of what a breeding has produced. There are no perfect pups.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Puppies change and you won't know what you have until some maturity develops and depending on the quality of training and upbringing they have. You are ascribing human traits to dogs. When looking for a sport dog, I wanting some craziness, not even tempered. That will come with maturity and training (if done correctly.) Alpha material? You won't find a true alpha dog. Fair, respectful, tranquil, reserved and a sport prospect? Respect is learned. An off switch is also taught unless the dog is hyper which is different from high drive. Dogs are not rude. People are rude. Staying close to the handler is the opposite of what some sports require. Confidence can change in a pup, just like many other traits. I would start over and determine more clearly what your goals for your dog will be and simplify what traits you hope to obtain. Repeat breedings will give you a better idea of what a breeding has produced. There are no perfect pups.


Ah, thanks so much! The traits I applied are ones I've read in dogs bios from potential breeders I was looking at, but I guess you can't add too many traits from too many different dogs. What would be the right traits for a potential schutzhund dog? Also, what were the human traits? I'll definitely take them out my little list. I didn't even realize that I'd put in any.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Puppies change and you won't know what you have until some maturity develops and depending on the quality of training and upbringing they have. You are ascribing human traits to dogs. When looking for a sport dog, I wanting some craziness, not even tempered. That will come with maturity and training (if done correctly.) Alpha material? You won't find a true alpha dog. Fair, respectful, tranquil, reserved and a sport prospect? Respect is learned. An off switch is also taught unless the dog is hyper which is different from high drive. Dogs are not rude. People are rude. Staying close to the handler is the opposite of what some sports require. Confidence can change in a pup, just like many other traits. I would start over and determine more clearly what your goals for your dog will be and simplify what traits you hope to obtain. Repeat breedings will give you a better idea of what a breeding has produced. There are no perfect pups.


Also, also, is the thing I said about littermates necessarily true? Will a dog less interested in his littermates grow to be uninterested in other dogs? I've heard about it and "seen" it, but took in the fact that the those people may have trained their dogs that way or didn't socialize them well and said it was just how the dogs were.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

If you go to a very good breeder, you will be given an in depth interview that includes a lengthy questionnaire. Mine ended up being 16 pages. 

I feel that if you pick a breeder that is breeding and perfecting their own line as opposed to importing often, some of these traits which can be difficult to tell at such a young age may be more distinguishable by the breeder. 
Picking a good breeder is very important but it's also important to pick a breeder that excels at puppy selection. They need to be able to decipher what you need and read their puppies well. 

If I were you, I’d focus on what you will do with the dog. What will the dogs typical day be like? What are your training goals?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Schutzhund/IGP dogs are all very different. The basics are very high prey drive with a low thresheld for prey (easily stimulated in prey), very good food drive, very good nerves, genetically full grips, reasonable to good handler hardness (tolerates corrections without folding), being new, I'd look for a breeding that produces social dogs with a higher threshold for defense and that are not reactive. I personally don't like that type of dog for anything. Forget about the littermate thing. You want a pup, that when taken to a strange place away from his litter mates, he is still open, curious and confident. Look at health issues within a line like hips and elbows. Breeders who know what their dogs have produced are the way to go. I'd stay away from too much emphasis on things like DDR dogs which are essentially gone.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> If you go to a very good breeder, you will be given an in depth interview that includes a lengthy questionnaire. Mine ended up being 16 pages.
> 
> I feel that if you pick a breeder that is breeding and perfecting their own line as opposed to importing often, some of these traits which can be difficult to tell at such a young age may be more distinguishable by the breeder.
> Picking a good breeder is very important but it's also important to pick a breeder that excels at puppy selection. They need to be able to decipher what you need and read their puppies well.
> ...


I'm thinking a for a typical day: Wake up, walk, training session, off to work. Come home, walk/hike, training session, playtime or something, feeding/training session. 

One of the reasons I was drawn to German Shepherds was honestly because I was interested in a dog I could get out and be active with then come home and do ( and this is an exaggeration ) military type drills with. Belgian Malinois was an option but I think that's way to much dog for me-- Border Collies too.

I think my training goals would be to get into a sport like Schutzhund or IPO. I was solely interested in the obedience and protection aspect at first so PSA was my go to, but when I realized how intense it was, I rethought my options and just shrugged off the tracking part of Schutzhund. It will be fun and mentally stimulating for the dog so, why not?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Schutzhund/IGP dogs are all very different. The basics are very high prey drive with a low thresheld for prey (easily stimulated in prey), very good food drive, very good nerves, genetically full grips, reasonable to good handler hardness (tolerates corrections without folding), being new, I'd look for a breeding that produces social dogs with a higher threshold for defense and that are not reactive. I personally don't like that type of dog for anything. Forget about the littermate thing. You want a pup, that when taken to a strange place away from his litter mates, he is still open, curious and confident. Look at health issues within a line like hips and elbows. Breeders who know what their dogs have produced are the way to go. I'd stay away from too much emphasis on things like DDR dogs which are essentially gone.


Alright, will do. Thanks so much. You learn something new everyday-- I had no idea grips were genetic. I see it all the time on dogs' bios but thought they were just trying to emphasize the dog's confidence. Now that I'm thinking about it, it makes total sense for it to be. That means the dog is well balanced mentally and confident, which are things I know can be passed down, duh! ( Not directed at you )

You said being new, I should look for a breeder that produces social dogs with a higher threshold for defense and that are not reactive. Would you be able to recommend someone? I've looked at a few and recently found out that two aren't reliable when getting back to you so you can ask questions and one just isn't a good person ( at least from a **** of a lot of similar reviews ). I'm currently looking at 3, but would love a few more options.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Chip


Symone said:


> I'm thinking a for a typical day: Wake up, walk, training session, off to work. Come home, walk/hike, training session, playtime or something, feeding/training session.
> 
> One of the reasons I was drawn to German Shepherds was honestly because I was interested in a dog I could get out and be active with then come home and do ( and this is an exaggeration ) military type drills with. Belgian Malinois was an option but I think that's way to much dog for me-- Border Collies too.
> 
> I think my training goals would be to get into a sport like Schutzhund or IPO. I was solely interested in the obedience and protection aspect at first so PSA was my go to, but when I realized how intense it was, I rethought my options and just shrugged off the tracking part of Schutzhund. It will be fun and mentally stimulating for the dog so, why not?


@Chip Blasiole described what seems like a good dog for you. He knows his stuff ?
I have a dog with a high threshold and it’s really very nice for someone newer to the sport and breed. I found that one issue for newer people is understanding all the lingo. I believe I have a good prey, high food, high threshold, medium hardness, handler focused dog. But even living with him every day, I’m still learning what his drives are considered. A good breeder will hear what you say and translate it into dog lingo, just as Chip did above. 

I assume you are looking at working lines?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> Chip
> 
> 
> @Chip Blasiole described what seems like a good dog for you. He knows his stuff ?
> ...


Yep, I am. And yeah certain words and terms just go right off the top of my head and I'm just like, "Well, yeah, I guess I want that." He really did make things easier.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Always train first and then walk if you need to. Actually, it is best to give the dog some "soak time" in the crate after training to absorb what he has just learned. Grips are often genetic, some to the point that the worst training won't mess them up, some that bad training will mess up and some are so genetically bad, the best training won't help much. It is not the grip per se that is genetic, but a combination of other traits that the grip arises from like intensity of prey, possessiveness, strength, jaw structure, nerves, etc. Also, a dogs needs to be calm when learning to grip and not all jacked up like many helpers create. This makes a dog hectic and interferes with learning. Dogs that simply like to bite things are a plus also.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Always train first and then walk if you need to. Actually, it is best to give the dog some "soak time" in the crate after training to absorb what he has just learned. Grips are often genetic, some to the point that the worst training won't mess them up, some that bad training will mess up and some are so genetically bad, the best training won't help much. It is not the grip per se that is genetic, but a combination of other traits that the grip arises from like intensity of prey, possessiveness, strength, jaw structure, nerves, etc. Also, a dogs needs to be calm when learning to grip and not all jacked up like many helpers create. This makes a dog hectic and interferes with learning. Dogs that simply like to bite things are a plus also.


Oh, alright. I was thinking that, but training first isn't something I do with my dog now so I just listed it first. Does that apply to younger pups too or should I take them out first until potty trained? I've only had rescues and adult dogs so this would all be pretty new to me.

And addressing that last thing you said-- do you think it would be a good idea to let my puppy chew "whatever" he wants? I was going to just because I know it assist with ears and ya' know- because puppies chew- but do you think a toy variety might encourage and strengthen a grip?


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Your best bet is to visit breeders who produce dogs that succeed at the sport you want to compete in. Meet their adult dogs and see if they are something you want to live with. When you have found the breeder that you trust, let them guide you in your decision. As has been pointed out above, what you see at 8 weeks old can be very misleading.
One time, many years ago my wife chose a golden retriever pup (field line) because it was the most quiet gentle pup in the litter. She seemed to be exactly what my wife wanted. We got her home, and it turned out she had a stomach infection, and that had made her lethargic. Two days after starting on meds she was a very stubborn, very difficult hellion. Just saying, you never know exactly what you are seeing at those young ages.
On the other hand, My breeder who chose my pup for me, noticed that when they took the pups to the vet at 7.5 weeks, while most of the pups were going crazy, one pup was totally calm and confident. When we went to pick up Max, we spent a bit of time with the breeder and he showed us the pup chasing the flirt poll and how he chased a ball. He commented that our pup was "hard on the ball" for that age. I wouldn't have seen the things he saw. He has had a lot of litters over the last thirty years, so his frame of reference was much more developed than mine, with my experience with different breeds and only 7 or 8 dogs. Trust your breeder.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Do you have any active and successful clubs local to you? If you're going to train in Schutzhund, that's just about as important as the dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Always let your pup/dog have the chance to relieve himself before training. I wouldn't let a pup chew anything for many reasons including safety and destructiveness. Raw soup and knuckle bones are good, but don't get the ones that are basted and baked. Certain hard nylon toys with little nubs are good. Never leave a pup unsupervised with a collar or chewing on something. The problem with a novice looking at adult dogs is they don't know what to look for. Also, a good dog might not be a good producer. Go with a breeder who has a good idea what their breeding pairs are likely to produce.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Jorski said:


> Your best bet is to visit breeders who produce dogs that succeed at the sport you want to compete in. Meet their adult dogs and see if they are something you want to live with. When you have found the breeder that you trust, let them guide you in your decision. As has been pointed out above, what you see at 8 weeks old can be very misleading.
> One time, many years ago my wife chose a golden retriever pup (field line) because it was the most quiet gentle pup in the litter. She seemed to be exactly what my wife wanted. We got her home, and it turned out she had a stomach infection, and that had made her lethargic. Two days after starting on meds she was a very stubborn, very difficult hellion. Just saying, you never know exactly what you are seeing at those young ages.
> On the other hand, My breeder who chose my pup for me, noticed that when they took the pups to the vet at 7.5 weeks, while most of the pups were going crazy, one pup was totally calm and confident. When we went to pick up Max, we spent a bit of time with the breeder and he showed us the pup chasing the flirt poll and how he chased a ball. He commented that our pup was "hard on the ball" for that age. I wouldn't have seen the things he saw. He has had a lot of litters over the last thirty years, so his frame of reference was much more developed than mine, with my experience with different breeds and only 7 or 8 dogs. Trust your breeder.


Yeah, I planned to, but your story really just opened my eyes and made me realize how extremely important it is. Thanks for sharing and thanks for the advice!


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Always let your pup/dog have the chance to relieve himself before training. I wouldn't let a pup chew anything for many reasons including safety and destructiveness. Raw soup and knuckle bones are good, but don't get the ones that are basted and baked. Certain hard nylon toys with little nubs are good. Never leave a pup unsupervised with a collar or chewing on something. The problem with a novice looking at adult dogs is they don't know what to look for. Also, a good dog might not be a good producer. Go with a breeder who has a good idea what their breeding pairs are likely to produce.


Oh I wasn't serious about that, sorry. But okay. And I knew about that collar thing already; as well as that raw vs cooked bone thing, I'm actually in the process of transitioning my guy to raw right now. Thanks for all this info, you've really helped. I'm revising my puppy "specifics" as I type and will share them shortly to get more feedback.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Do you have any active and successful clubs local to you? If you're going to train in Schutzhund, that's just about as important as the dog.


This is for a future dog so I'll have moved when I get him. Currently in an apartment and plan to be for a while and definitely don't want a GSD while in one. I'll be doing my research though, and will make sure to try to get into a place that has one nearby.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Once you're settled in, and ready for a dog, what I would do is let your dog adapt to your routine and lifestyle. If what you want is to center it on training, that's fine. Dogs go from a training life to retired all the time. Mine went from 7weeks old to IPO3, and now walking companion just fine. The key is don't fall into trying to entertain him all the time. Sometimes settle and relax needs to be another obedience for a while, but you need that balance. All the things you listed in your original post, I don't think its so much that its unrealistic, but will depend on who you're talking to. In general, think about it like this. You can't change temperament, but you can teach behavior, so all those things can be, at least to a certain degree trained and managed and they'll probably mean something a little different to every different person.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Once you're settled in, and ready for a dog, what I would do is let your dog adapt to your routine and lifestyle. If what you want is to center it on training, that's fine. Dogs go from a training life to retired all the time. Mine went from 7weeks old to IPO3, and now walking companion just fine. The key is don't fall into trying to entertain him all the time. Sometimes settle and relax needs to be another obedience for a while, but you need that balance. All the things you listed in your original post, I don't think its so much that its unrealistic, but will depend on who you're talking to. In general, think about it like this. You can't change temperament, but you can teach behavior, so all those things can be, at least to a certain degree trained and managed and they'll probably mean something a little different to every different person.


Powerful words of wisdom. I shall steal your phrase and live by it to help me in the future: "You can't change temperament, but you can teach behavior..." I know it'll be something I think of often and will help me when working with my dogs. Thanks for your input!


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Alright, so here are my revised "specifics". What do you guys think? Is it still too much to ask of a puppy? - P.S @Chip Blasiole: I figured out those human traits you mentioned. That was actually for ideal an adult dog and I didn't even realize those got in there but went with it. Thanks for pointing them out, I took 'em right off my puppy list. Here's the new one:


1. Stable and sound temperament-wise. 

2. Clear food and prey drive. 

3. Very observant.

4. Attentive and clearly interested in handler; interested in what they have to offer. 

5. Independent; confident when away from handler. 

6. Cleary confident when approached or approaching. 

7. Watchful of and curious about surroundings.

Also, by "handler", I'm talking about the breeder or person working with the pup, not myself.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I personally think you can see some of these traits when they are younger and can gauge from there. I helped whelp the Blackthorn Yy (Cody Blendy x Blackthorn's Xanthippe) and B3 litter (Zambia vd Emsaue x Link v Sequoyah Haus). I wasn't there each day but stopped by at least once a week to interact. You can see personalities develop and what they may grow up to be. A good breeder should be able to take what you're looking for and offer a litter suggestion (if they have one available) then help pick the puppy for you. Preferrably one that has dealt with those lines for a long time and has produced and kept back from their own breedings.

I think it truely depends on what exactly you are looking for. I think a sport dog can have an off switch that isn't taught - both of mine do and I would not call either of them "low or medium" drive dogs.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Katsugsd said:


> I personally think you can see some of these traits when they are younger and can gauge from there. I helped whelp the Blackthorn Yy (Cody Blendy x Blackthorn's Xanthippe) and B3 litter (Zambia vd Emsaue x Link v Sequoyah Haus). I wasn't there each day but stopped by at least once a week to interact. You can see personalities develop and what they may grow up to be. A good breeder should be able to take what you're looking for and offer a litter suggestion (if they have one available) then help pick the puppy for you. Preferrably one that has dealt with those lines for a long time and has produced and kept back from their own breedings.
> 
> I think it truely depends on what exactly you are looking for. I think a sport dog can have an off switch that isn't taught - both of mine do and I would not call either of them "low or medium" drive dogs.


Oh, alright, very cool. Thanks. So off switch is something that can be determined while young? Is there like a definite test or is it something a breeder assumes from looking at parents and past litters?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding the term "off switch" and whether it is genetic or can be taught, some dogs are genetically more hectic, hyper and tend to leak drive and many dogs become this way because of how they are incorrectly trained. You tend to see this training approach more in IGP because, IMO, the bark & hold in the blind is such a big part of the judging where judges want to see a strong rhythmic bark, so the whip is used a lot to stimulate prey and frustration, which also can create hecticness and makes it more difficult for the dog to learn things in a clear state of mind. I see no need for a B&H and think it is a big waste of a dog's energy and a waste of valuable training time that doesn't tell you much about a dog. Same goes for foundation bite work. You see videos all the time of helpers using the whip and getting the pup/dog so frustrated with misses of the prey object that the dog is in such a high state of drive he has trouble learning. If a dog has to be highly stimulated to bite, you have the wrong dog, but that is how many IGP dogs get their points and the dog's true temperament is masked. By not overstimulating a young pup or dog, he learns the mechanics of bite work much better and doesn't become a maniac as soon as you bring him on the field and he sees the helper. You have created an on and off switch through learning.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the term "off switch" and whether it is genetic or can be taught, some dogs are genetically more hectic, hyper and tend to leak drive and many dogs become this way because of how they are incorrectly trained. You tend to see this training approach more in IGP because, IMO, the bark & hold in the blind is such a big part of the judging where judges want to see a strong rhythmic bark, so the whip is used a lot to stimulate prey and frustration, which also can create hecticness and makes it more difficult for the dog to learn things in a clear state of mind. I see no need for a B&H and think it is a big waste of a dog's energy and a waste of valuable training time that doesn't tell you much about a dog. Same goes for foundation bite work. You see videos all the time of helpers using the whip and getting the pup/dog so frustrated with misses of the prey object that the dog is in such a high state of drive he has trouble learning. If a dog has to be highly stimulated to bite, you have the wrong dog, but that is how many IGP dogs get their points and the dog's true temperament is masked. By not overstimulating a young pup or dog, he learns the mechanics of bite work much better and doesn't become a maniac as soon as you bring him on the field and he sees the helper. You have created an on and off switch through learning.


Hmm. So do you think it would be a good idea to do lots of foundation work beforehand and wait a while before starting a sport? I intended to do foundation work but thought of joining a club and jumping right in the day my pup was old enough.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ideally, you would learn the foundation work at a club. You may be a little surprised too, how much personal likes play into how people use the same terms differently. Show me is what I go by. I always want to see for myself.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Incorrect foundation work is the main reason people have to retrain their dogs because their foundation was poorly taught. Based on your apparent level of experience, you will not be able to do correct foundation work. You need to find a very good club with very skilled helpers which is even harder than finding a good prospect dog. The other thing I see a lot of on videos is the helper running all around with sleeve. In an IGP trial you will never see a helper running all around on the field to stimulate a dog's prey drive. So why show the dog that picture when it is irrelevant to what he will see in a trial? Same with the whip. There is no whip in a trial.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Ideally, you would learn the foundation work at a club. You may be a little surprised too, how much personal likes play into how people use the same terms differently. Show me is what I go by. I always want to see for myself.





Chip Blasiole said:


> Incorrect foundation work is the main reason people have to retrain their dogs because their foundation was poorly taught. Based on your apparent level of experience, you will not be able to do correct foundation work. You need to find a very good club with very skilled helpers which is even harder than finding a good prospect dog. The other thing I see a lot of on videos is the helper running all around with sleeve. In an IGP trial you will never see a helper running all around on the field to stimulate a dog's prey drive. So why show the dog that picture when it is irrelevant to what he will see in a trial? Same with the whip. There is no whip in a trial.


Oh, okay. And yeah, I'm totally new to everything. I don't plan on getting a GSD for a _long while but _want to be completely prepared. I actually intended on learning foundation work from videos so thanks a lot for that last bit of info @Chip Blasiole. I'll definitely do my research and look into the club I decided to join.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd just keep it simple for now Symone. The bottom line, if you want a dog for something specific like a sport is will he do it? Drive is fine. Prey drive is fun just to play with them if nothing else. Does he have the nerve to hold it together? That's what I think makes them livable and the drives usable in whatever you're doing.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd just keep it simple for now Symone. The bottom line, if you want a dog for something specific like a sport is will he do it? Drive is fine. Prey drive is fun just to play with them if nothing else. Does he have the nerve to hold it together? That's what I think makes them livable and the drives usable in whatever you're doing.


Everyone who's replied has really helped lots. Thanks to all of you! If there's anything else, please keep it coming.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’d suggest visiting your local clubs and hanging out with the members for a day. See the sport, the helpers and the dogs. Pay attention to how the members get along, how they help less experienced trainers and their dogs’ stories. 
In joining a club, you end up spending a lot of time with the members. See if it’s a thing you’d want to do. 
Oh and if you visit bring them cookies ?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I’d suggest visiting your local clubs and hanging out with the members for a day. See the sport, the helpers and the dogs. Pay attention to how the members get along, how they help less experienced trainers and their dogs’ stories.
> In joining a club, you end up spending a lot of time with the members. See if it’s a thing you’d want to do.
> Oh and if you visit bring them cookies ?


Never thought about this, but I totally will! This'll also give me a chance to see if the sport I planned on doing is right for me. I'll also have an excuse to pet relaxing puppers when chatting ?...


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Symone said:


> Never thought about this, but I totally will! This'll also give me a chance to see if the sport I planned on doing is right for me. I'll also have an excuse to pet relaxing puppers when chatting ?...


I tried to visit as many as I could during my search. It’s really neat to see the different philosophies and applications of the same sport. Plan on an all day affair and bring lunch.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Symone,
Since this thread is under "Finding the Right Pup" here is a link to the type of pup that would be a good match for you.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

And what 


Chip Blasiole said:


> Symone,
> Since this thread is under "Finding the Right Pup" here is a link to the type of pup that would be a good match for you.


And what is this-- what would I ask a breeder for? A confident pup with lots of drive?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This is a joke. You will not see many GSDs at this age with this level of intensity and man orientation vs. equipment orientation. You would have to have a special connection to get a pup like this. I tried to follow up and see what this pup ended up doing but had no luck. It wouldn't surprise me me if he became police dog, which can be unfortunate because often such nice dogs are never bred or bred to the right bitch and becomes a genetic loss to the breed. The video gives you some perspective of what to realistically expect to see from a pup of this age and this pup is an exception to the rule.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Oh, okay. So it'd be better to expect a middle of the road type pup that I can build drive and stuff in? 

Also, I sadly report that no, he didn't. He passed at age two for reasons unknown to me ( I looked him up and found his pedigree page when you first sent it ).


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You are saying he died at age two? That is a loss to the breed. I have not seen a pup that nice at that age in terms of drive, confidence and structure.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

I used the term passed, but yes, he did die. His father did too, so unless his siblings are breeding ( I couldn't access it so I'm not sure ) it truly is a loss. That was one of the more driven pups I've seen too. A lot of training vids I've seen show pups backing into their handler when the helper comes at them and only going after the equipment and never really after the person.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Symone said:


> Oh, okay. So it'd be better to expect a middle of the road type pup that I can build drive and stuff in?
> 
> Also, I sadly report that no, he didn't. He passed at age two for reasons unknown to me ( I looked him up and found his pedigree page when you first sent it ).


Just something to keep in mind from a little bit of a consumer point of view. Build drive is little misleading. You can't build something that isn't there, you direct it through specific training. As your putting all this stuff together and watching and reading these things, watch these videos more for entertainment than anything really all that useful. I think there's a certain knack for or skill at heating these puppies up with all that stimulation to make them look like world beaters, but the actual training involved, how the puppies are away from all that, what was edited out, don't form your opinions from short clips from people trying to sell dogs.

I'm editing this in because I left it off, but when I say show me, I mean show me what I want and need to see, not just what *you* want me to see.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

JMO, when you talk to breeders, just use plain old English. Tell them how you'd like to spend your time with the dog, a bit about your household and your training experience, goals if you have them.

Don't get hung up on "I want medium-high ball drive, over the top food drive, high thresholds for blah blah blah"..... All those catchy words mean different things to different people, and you can drown in a sea of jargon trying to sort it all out.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> Just something to keep in mind from a little bit of a consumer point of view. Build drive is little misleading. You can't build something that isn't there, you direct it through specific training. As your putting all this stuff together and watching and reading these things, watch these videos more for entertainment than anything really all that useful. I think there's a certain knack for or skill at heating these puppies up with all that stimulation to make them look like world beaters, but the actual training involved, how the puppies are away from all that, what was edited out, don't form your opinions from short clips from people trying to sell dogs.
> 
> I'm editing this in because I left it off, but when I say show me, I mean show me what I want and need to see, not just what *you* want me to see.


Mm, okay. I totally get that. I'll be doing my research and looking into good breeders that have been known to match pups well.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> JMO, when you talk to breeders, just use plain old English. Tell them how you'd like to spend your time with the dog, a bit about your household and your training experience, goals if you have them.
> 
> Don't get hung up on "I want medium-high ball drive, over the top food drive, high thresholds for blah blah blah"..... All those catchy words mean different things to different people, and you can drown in a sea of jargon trying to sort it all out.


Oh yeah, and you see with me-- I assumed a breeder might prefer it if I knew ( er, thought I knew ) what I was talking about and would be able to place me with a good pup. I can totally see how that could end badly though. Thanks for the warning! When finally talking to a breeder I choose, I'll make sure to be as honest as possible with all that stuff instead of just trying to list it as I did here.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think it helps to use some jargon, but not go into too much detail if you really don't fully understand the different traits a GSD can possess. For example, if Symone wants to compete in IGP, it will be more fun and successful if the dog has very good prey drive. If someone doesn't want a GSD that is somewhat sharp or mistrustful, it would help to say you are looking for a highly social dog with solid nerves. High food drive always contributes to sport training. A strong desire to engage as opposed to a more independent dog is an asset for most sports. A degree of handler hardness as opposed to a dog that is soft to corrections will make training more enjoyable and successful. A dog with that package of drives and traits has little to no liability as opposed to a GSD whose primary drive is aggression, is very handler hard, very protective and mistrustful of strangers. If you want a dog like the first type I described, you are still going to have to be willing to have a proper place to house the dog and to tolerate some of the annoyance a high drive pup has. The pup will mature out of that annoyance if raised correctly and you will end up enjoying training the dog for sport much more than a lower drive dog with questionable nerves or a dog that is not that social. It is a personal preference. The trend is for the herdings dogs to be very social and some say this trend is beginning to show its downside in that dogs that will be operational and not sport dogs, are not holding up to certain challenges or they are dogs that anyone can just walk away with. Some breeders breed both types of dogs.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think it helps to use some jargon, but not go into too much detail if you really don't fully understand the different traits a GSD can possess. For example, if Symone wants to compete in IGP, it will be more fun and successful if the dog has very good prey drive. If someone doesn't want a GSD that is somewhat sharp or mistrustful, it would help to say you are looking for a highly social dog with solid nerves. High food drive always contributes to sport training. A strong desire to engage as opposed to a more independent dog is an asset for most sports. A degree of handler hardness as opposed to a dog that is soft to corrections will make training more enjoyable and successful. A dog with that package of drives and traits has little to no liability as opposed to a GSD whose primary drive is aggression, is very handler hard, very protective and mistrustful of strangers. If you want a dog like the first type I described, you are still going to have to be willing to have a proper place to house the dog and to tolerate some of the annoyance a high drive pup has. The pup will mature out of that annoyance if raised correctly and you will end up enjoying training the dog for sport much more than a lower drive dog with questionable nerves or a dog that is not that social. It is a personal preference. The trend is for the herdings dogs to be very social and some say this trend is beginning to show its downside in that dogs that will be operational and not sport dogs, are not holding up to certain challenges or they are dogs that anyone can just walk away with. Some breeders breed both types of dogs.


I know for sure that I'm interested in doing Schutzhund with my dog, but actually don't know the traits a dog would have to possess besides a certain amount of drive and good nerves. I mentioned this before, but the traits I'd listed originally were ones I'd seen in Schutzhund trained dogs bios. I'm actually pretty clueless when it comes to what a dog should and shouldn't have though, so my best bet really was just finding a good breeder who'd understand what I was looking for and would match me with a pup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Symone said:


> I know for sure that I'm interested in doing Schutzhund with my dog, but actually don't know the traits a dog would have to possess besides a certain amount of drive and good nerves. I mentioned this before, but the traits I'd listed originally were ones I'd seen in Schutzhund trained dogs bios. I'm actually pretty clueless when it comes to what a dog should and shouldn't have though, so my best bet really was just finding a good breeder who'd understand what I was looking for and would match me with a pup.


Find a club. Go watch the dogs. Ask questions. It's one thing to ask questions online in a theoretical manner and another to watch the dogs in action. You will find dogs that you like and dogs that you don't. ask about the breeders of the dogs you like. 

Clubs for USCA are listed on this page








Clubs & Events | United Schutzhund Clubs of America


Find a USCA club or event near you! We offer German Shepherd conformation shows, breed surveys, and trials nationwide.




www.germanshepherddog.com


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Find a club. Go watch the dogs. Ask questions. It's one thing to ask questions online in a theoretical manner and another to watch the dogs in action. You will find dogs that you like and dogs that you don't. ask about the breeders of the dogs you like.
> 
> Clubs for USCA are listed on this page
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I plan too, but still, thanks for the advice! Someone suggested it yesterday and I went right to that website. Turns out I live less than half an hour from two and a little over an hour away from another! They form a little awkward 'T' around me lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Symone said:


> Oh yeah, I plan too, but still, thanks for the advice! Someone suggested it yesterday and I went right to that website. Turns out I live less than half an hour from two and a little over an hour away from another! They form a little awkward 'T' around me lol


lol you are so lucky! I'm a 6 hour round trip from all my trainers! Ask to visit all of them. Some clubs are better than others


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

What's something I should look for when visiting-- club-wise. I'll be looking at and asking about dogs too, but I'm assuming I should ask about the club's results? That's what I've heard from this trainer I watch anyway. He says if your trainer or club hasn't tilted dogs then you're in the wrong place. Is that true?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. they should be titling dogs. You can PM the clubs to me. I can give you input if I know them. and there might be other groups around you that aren't official clubs.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Oh thanks, that'd be really awesome.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Of course, I would watch the dogs and ask about the dogs. Talk about dogs. Talk about your ideas of the dog you want to get. 
But also pay attention to the members. Do they get along? You’ll end up spending a lot of time with your club, do you get along with them? Do they help the less experienced? How quick do members form a group when asked? How many helpers do they have? How willing are they to help someone new to the sport?
Some clubs have training directors that function like a one-on-one trainer while some share the training guidance between members. Try to figure out the dynamics of the clubs you visit.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Another thing to consider is that all titles are not equal. Some dogs compete at the club level, regional level and national and international level. So you need a better dog and training the higher the level you are aiming for. Also, some people are just trialing for fun, some are serious competitors and some try to title a dog with the genetics of a strong police dog who they intend to breed to produce a certain type of dog. They know the training will be a challenge and not so pretty, but like the challenge. Others want the type of dog that, after all the training, will actually protect, but those dogs are in the minority. My bias is that this result is more common in IGP due to the emphasis on prey drive and it being a patterned sport, but there are some strong IGP dogs that are formidable.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Another thing to consider is that all titles are not equal. Some dogs compete at the club level, regional level and national and international level. So you need a better dog and training the higher the level you are aiming for. Also, some people are just trialing for fun, some are serious competitors and some try to title a dog with the genetics of a strong police dog who they intend to breed to produce a certain type of dog. They know the training will be a challenge and not so pretty, but like the challenge. Others want the type of dog that, after all the training, will actually protect, but those dogs are in the minority. My bias is that this result is more common in IGP due to the emphasis on prey drive and it being a patterned sport, but there are some strong IGP dogs that are formidable.


Oh, I'm interested in training a dog that's actually willing to protect when I need it to. Is that hard to achieve? I actually read somewhere that that's the reason why PSA is better-- "...because dogs trained in Schutzhund only know the sleeve and won't bite someone they don't see wearing one.." or something along the lines. I'll be on my own when I get my German Shepherd and while I'd be getting the dog because I like them, I know my mom wants the reassurance that I'll be safe.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> Of course, I would watch the dogs and ask about the dogs. Talk about dogs. Talk about your ideas of the dog you want to get.
> But also pay attention to the members. Do they get along? You’ll end up spending a lot of time with your club, do you get along with them? Do they help the less experienced? How quick do members form a group when asked? How many helpers do they have? How willing are they to help someone new to the sport?
> Some clubs have training directors that function like a one-on-one trainer while some share the training guidance between members. Try to figure out the dynamics of the clubs you visit.


Alright. I'll keep those things in mind. Thanks!


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I think you may be a little all over the place with your wants. Maybe decide your actual plan and find the dog to go with it... or with the potential to


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I think you may be a little all over the place with your wants. Maybe decide your actual plan and find the dog to go with it... or with the potential to
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that addressing the original wants or the revised ones? And I've decided I was to train a dog in Schutzhund or some other protection sport. Those original traits are ones I often read about in Schutzhund dog's bios so I was assuming it was something they needed-- minus all that littermate stuff, that was something personal.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I train in PSA and don't care for IGP. In IGP, the dog wins the sleeve so many times it is easier for the dog to become too equipment oriented. In PSA, we train with a thinner competition suit and the dog can feel the muscles, bones and tendons moving through the suit and gets more of a sense he is biting the man. Genetics play a large part as does training. But PSA is so much more about control and nerves. Dogs are coaxed to bite in obedience and protection scenarios and if they bite when they are not supposed to you get disqualified. It is not a patterned sport. It is primarily a Mal sport and Mals tend to have very high prey drive which can mask nerve issues. So it is not black and white. There are dogs in all sports that will bite for real and fight a man and dogs that won't. It is a combination of training and genetics.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, and PSA just makes me think "Too lazy to track" Another phrase for you Symone, "The dogs don't lie" In any sport, you'll see different types of dogs and you'll be able to figure it out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, and PSA just makes me think "Too lazy to track" Another phrase for you Symone, "The dogs don't lie" In any sport, you'll see different types of dogs and you'll be able to figure it out.


? Seger's retirement home.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> ? Seger's retirement home.
> 
> View attachment 557721


Whoa, looks like some tendon movin goin on there.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Michael Ellis talking about police k9 outs compared to sport dogs...


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I train in PSA and don't care for IGP. In IGP, the dog wins the sleeve so many times it is easier for the dog to become too equipment oriented. In PSA, we train with a thinner competition suit and the dog can feel the muscles, bones and tendons moving through the suit and gets more of a sense he is biting the man. Genetics play a large part as does training. But PSA is so much more about control and nerves. Dogs are coaxed to bite in obedience and protection scenarios and if they bite when they are not supposed to you get disqualified. It is not a patterned sport. It is primarily a Mal sport and Mals tend to have very high prey drive which can mask nerve issues. So it is not black and white. There are dogs in all sports that will bite for real and fight a man and dogs that won't. It is a combination of training and genetics.


Oh okay. And yeah, that's what I thought-- about the sports part. That's really why I was thinking PSA would be better, but I read that it was really created for Mals and German Shepherd tends to not have the nerve or drive to keep up. And the ones that do I think would be a lot for the first time GSD owner like me. And I don't want a Maligator. I've seen those dogs in action and know what it takes to keep one and I am not up for that challenge lol. Now is that part about the German Shepherds necessarily true or does it depend on that individual dog and the breeder you go to?



Steve Strom said:


> Lol, and PSA just makes me think "Too lazy to track" Another phrase for you Symone, "The dogs don't lie" In any sport, you'll see different types of dogs and you'll be able to figure it out.


I was actually interested in the tracking part of Schutzhund but mainly the obedience and protection. I was thinking tracking could be a side thing we'd train for and instead of doing it with a club, we'd do it in one of those AKC events. That and scent work would definitely be a recreational thing, but I would train in obedience and protection for the purpose of wanting a dog that'd be willing to protect me in an actual situation.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Symone said:


> Oh okay. And yeah, that's what I thought-- about the sports part. That's really why I was thinking PSA would be better, but I read that it was really created for Mals and German Shepherd tends to not have the nerve or drive to keep up. And the ones that do I think would be a lot for the first time GSD owner like me. And I don't want a Maligator. I've seen those dogs in action and know what it takes to keep one and I am not up for that challenge lol. Now is that part about the German Shepherds necessarily true or does it depend on that individual dog and the breeder you go to?
> 
> 
> I was actually interested in the tracking part of Schutzhund but mainly the obedience and protection. I was thinking tracking could be a side thing we'd train for and instead of doing it with a club, we'd do it in one of those AKC events. That and scent work would definitely be a recreational thing, but I would train in obedience and protection for the purpose of wanting a dog that'd be willing to protect me in an actual situation.


There is plenty of “overlap” between gsds and mals. There are gsds that can be every bit as difficult to live with and then some. Continue your research and see some dogs, find one that checks off most of the boxes and equally important one you can live with.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Nigel said:


> There is plenty of “overlap” between gsds and mals. There are gsds that can be every bit as difficult to live with and then some. Continue your research and see some dogs, find one that checks off most of the boxes and equally important one you can live with.


Yeah, I know, and GSDs did check off the boxes for me. _But_ I have to remember that I was looking at articles that may have been influenced by AKCs standard and not the working standard. _And_ I have take into account that I haven't even properly met a Mal, I've just seen them in action 

The biggest thing that made me choose the GSD is the energy level they usually get ranked. I've read many things saying their energy level tends to be low to mid range but the exercise needs are high; and that isn't a problem for me. With Mals it tends to say that they have very high energy levels and very high exercise needs; which I don't want or need. I was also drawn to the GSDs versatility. Even though Mals were originally bred to do and still can do exactly what the GSD can, you don't see it often and it's hard to find breeders that do have versatile dogs (protection isn't the only thing I have in mind when it comes to getting a GSDs, I'm also interested in herding, but that would be a different dog and different story). Dutchies and Belgian Sheepdogs were actually also an option for me, but when it boils down to it, those three just didn't make the cut. I'll do more research though and talk to more people, maybe there'll even be Mals around when I finally visit a Schutzhund club.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Symone said:


> Is that addressing the original wants or the revised ones? And I've decided I was to train a dog in Schutzhund or some other protection sport. Those original traits are ones I often read about in Schutzhund dog's bios so I was assuming it was something they needed-- minus all that littermate stuff, that was something personal.


It’s just addressing the fact that I’ve seen personal protection, igp, psa, and herding all mentioned as your plans for the goal. Doing all of that isn’t realistic in my opinion. Even the highest level dog trainers can’t do all that with one dog


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> It’s just addressing the fact that I’ve seen personal protection, igp, psa, and herding all mentioned as your plans for the goal. Doing all of that isn’t realistic in my opinion. Even the highest level dog trainers can’t do all that with one dog
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh! I thought in your initial comment you'd meant that the _traits _I ( thought I* ) wanted in a dog are all over the place. I didn't know you were talking about the goals. But all that was actually just me mentioning and asking about different things, not sharing a set plan that I intend to accomplish or anything like that. What is set is that I want to definitely ( if the dog makes the cut ) get into some type of protection work with my _first _GSD. The _next _GSD would be the one I would try out something like herding with. My last post was just me saying I liked the GSD _because _of its versatility, not that I wanted one dog to do all those things. One dog doing one thing, while the other does another.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Symone said:


> Oh! I thought in your initial comment you'd meant that the _traits _I ( thought I* ) wanted in a dog are all over the place. I didn't know you were talking about the goals. But all that was actually just me mentioning and asking about different things, not sharing a set plan that I intend to accomplish or anything like that. What is set is that I want to definitely ( if the dog makes the cut ) get into some type of protection work with my _first _GSD. The _next _GSD would be the one I would try out something like herding with. My last post was just me saying I liked the GSD _because _of its versatility, not that I wanted one dog to do all those things. One dog doing one thing, while the other does another.


Gotcha. I’m not criticizing, just sharing my experience. I wish I would have developed a training plan before I even brought my dog home. Sometimes it feels as though we’re playing catch-up in training for igp. Just a thought. Good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Gotcha. I’m not criticizing, just sharing my experience. I wish I would have developed a training plan before I even brought my dog home. Sometimes it feels as though we’re playing catch-up in training for igp. Just a thought. Good luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oof, I totally understand, it's the same with me and my current rescue. Even though we aren't doing anything like IGP, there are lots of basic things I wish I would've known, done and planned out before we got him. That's actually what I'm afraid of repeating and that's why I'm trying to figure everything out now. I know it's a lot of planning when I won't get this dog for years. I've just heard so many stories about people wishing they were prepared or what they wished they would've done differently before they got their GSD, so I want to make sure I'm completely prepared this time and have a plan.


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## Stuckey (Feb 1, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Puppies change and you won't know what you have until some maturity develops and depending on the quality of training and upbringing they have. You are ascribing human traits to dogs. When looking for a sport dog, I wanting some craziness, not even tempered. That will come with maturity and training (if done correctly.) Alpha material? You won't find a true alpha dog. Fair, respectful, tranquil, reserved and a sport prospect? Respect is learned. An off switch is also taught unless the dog is hyper which is different from high drive. Dogs are not rude. People are rude. Staying close to the handler is the opposite of what some sports require. Confidence can change in a pup, just like many other traits. I would start over and determine more clearly what your goals for your dog will be and simplify what traits you hope to obtain. Repeat breedings will give you a better idea of what a breeding has produced. There are no perfect pups.


Yes puppies change. What you ask for is probably what you want In Schutzhund. But it could change right after you get him.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding tracking and laziness in IGP, I have done my share, think it is boring and is more of an obedience exercise than real tracking. Regarding the tendon comment, some people have had good success teaching targeting with a reversed Belgian sleeve, but I think it is a poor training approach and really limits how the decoy can present the bicep. That is why you tend to see dogs in PSA taught to target with a Belgian sleeve biting down near the elbow instead high on the bicep, where the bite should be. In the photo of Seger, it looks like he has a mouth full of sleeve and is not biting the decoy's arm at all. One reason Mals tend to dominate is PSA (only one GSD has obtained a PSA 3 since the sport's inception) is that, as I said before, many Mals have such high prey drive, it masks their nerve issues and they push through their fear because their prey is of a more compulsive nature. The other issue is that, IMO, nerve problems in the GSD are one of the breed's biggest shortcomings. I see Schutzhund/IGP as having a role in that because the dogs are not really tested in the sport for nerve and the sport is more an assessment of a handler's skill than a dog's genetics. Protection sports are largely prey based, so in PSA, you need a GSD with good nerves and prey and a higher threshold for defense because it is all about controlled aggression. Dogs that are sharp, or that have a low threshold for defense, or whose primary drive is defense rather than prey won't fair well in PSA. I also think IGP is more forgiving of poor foundation training than PSA because as a dog trials at the higher levels, there are many more changes in a trial that build upon earlier training and it is not choreographed or patterned like IGP. While Mals/Mal X's/DS's definitely have higher drive, I think it is a misconception to think they are bouncing off the walls all the time. They are not a good choice for a pet, but the main difference I see is their speed, intensity to strike a toy or prey object, and they don't go down in drive as easily when corrected like a GSD, so you have the advantage of better prey and a higher tolerance for compulsion, which makes training more successful.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding tracking and laziness in IGP, I have done my share, think it is boring and is more of an obedience exercise than real tracking. Regarding the tendon comment, some people have had good success teaching targeting with a reversed Belgian sleeve, but I think it is a poor training approach and really limits how the decoy can present the bicep. That is why you tend to see dogs in PSA taught to target with a Belgian sleeve biting down near the elbow instead high on the bicep, where the bite should be. In the photo of Seger, it looks like he has a mouth full of sleeve and is not biting the decoy's arm at all. One reason Mals tend to dominate is PSA (only one GSD has obtained a PSA 3 since the sport's inception) is that, as I said before, many Mals have such high prey drive, it masks their nerve issues and they push through their fear because their prey is of a more compulsive nature. The other issue is that, IMO, nerve problems in the GSD are one of the breed's biggest shortcomings. I see Schutzhund/IGP as having a role in that because the dogs are not really tested in the sport for nerve and the sport is more an assessment of a handler's skill than a dog's genetics. Protection sports are largely prey based, so in PSA, you need a GSD with good nerves and prey and a higher threshold for defense because it is all about controlled aggression. Dogs that are sharp, or that have a low threshold for defense, or whose primary drive is defense rather than prey won't fair well in PSA. I also think IGP is more forgiving of poor foundation training than PSA because as a dog trials at the higher levels, there are many more changes in a trial that build upon earlier training and it is not choreographed or patterned like IGP. While Mals/Mal X's/DS's definitely have higher drive, I think it is a misconception to think they are bouncing off the walls all the time. They are not a good choice for a pet, but the main difference I see is their speed, intensity to strike a toy or prey object, and they don't go down in drive as easily when corrected like a GSD, so you have the advantage of better prey and a higher tolerance for compulsion, which makes training more successful.


That's something I've actually heard as well-- that they are not a good choice for a pet and need a job. I'm really looking for a dog that I can have as a pet and do a bunch of fun activities with, and still have one that'd be willing to actually bite someone when I need them to. I know technically a Mal can do all that, I just prefer GSDs.

I want to ask a question about sports. Do I need to do it on a different forum or could I do it here since it somewhat relates to me 'Picking The Right Puppy'?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I doubt anyone would mind if you asked here. I'll add that my GSD as a pup would not be considered by many to be a good pet. There were many times he would run at you full steam and crash his full body into you. He still does that some, but in a more tame way. He was extremely mouthy, biting hard and redirection or punishment had no effect except to make the behavior worse. Now he has matured and is very well behaved in the house. I choose to ignore or go away from him (negative reinforcement) and over time with maturity the behaviors extinguished. And with maturity, he is not the type of dog to take to parties or picnics, even though he is socially appropriate other than being very territorial in the vehicle and not being the type of dog that people should assume he wants to be touched by.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Alright, well, I basically wanted to ask - just judging by the info I gave - what would be the best sport for me? To do a recap: I want a German Shepherd. I'm mainly interested in obedience and protection; protection just because I want/need a reliable dog who'd protect me in a time of need, and obedience because I believe if your dog is gonna be protecting you, they should be trained in obedience as well-- and just because I find obedience interesting and it'd be a nice mental stimulation for my dog. I'm wouldn't be interested in doing protection type work for the titles or the this and the that, it'd be solely to train my dog to be a reliable protector. If it came down to it and the only types of protection work required you to have those things then, of course, I would try my very best to get them, but that's not what I'm interested in training for. In an earlier message, I said I was interested in tracking, but that would purely be for recreation and for the fun of getting out with my dog.

Questions are welcomed if it'd help you help me.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Symone said:


> Alright, well, I basically wanted to ask - just judging by the info I gave - what would be the best sport for me? To do a recap: I want a German Shepherd. I'm mainly interested in obedience and protection; protection just because I want/need a reliable dog who'd protect me in a time of need, and obedience because I believe if your dog is gonna be protecting you, they should be trained in obedience as well-- and just because I find obedience interesting and it'd be a nice mental stimulation for my dog. I'm wouldn't be interested in doing protection type work for the titles or the this and the that, it'd be solely to train my dog to be a reliable protector. If it came down to it and the only types of protection work required you to have those things then, of course, I would try my very best to get them, but that's not what I'm interested in training for. In an earlier message, I said I was interested in tracking, but that would purely be for recreation and for the fun of getting out with my dog.
> 
> Questions are welcomed if it'd help you help me.


I think you should buy a finished personal protection dog and leave the sports alone if that’s what you want. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think that finding and training a dog that will truly bite a human to protect you may be more difficult than it seems. 
Many people get significant ‘protection’ through deterrent. My pup is only 6 months and he gets a lot of respect and fear on walks. It would take one strong nerved attacker to approach. 
This might be asking too much. But what type of protection do you foresee needing?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I think you should buy a finished personal protection dog and leave the sports alone if that’s what you want.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd actually thought about that too - it was actually my first option - but there was this nagging voice going, 'Wouldn't it be better to train with the dog rather than getting one fully trained so you learn too?' I assume they would tell you everything you need to know before letting you walk away with one of their dogs, but there was still that fear. I was also thinking a fully trained adult may be too much to work with-- at least for me I think it would be, but you never know, I've still got some growing to do. I really think I'd be more comfortable being there while my puppy was getting trained or being the actual handler so I could be trained as well as the dog-- though that could very well be due to my insecurities when it comes to dog training (training hasn't been going well with my current adult dog and I "tend to be really hard on myself" - my mom's words). I'll definitely look more into that though. It's still an option.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I find PP training boring, usually done by people not committed to become better handlers and trainers and not really knowing how to train a dog, and its utility is limited. If someone wants to harm you they will simply shoot you and/ or your dog. There are a handful of people out there that can actually select and train the right dog for PP. Sport should be for enjoying your dog, and for some, if you are going to invest the time it takes to accomplish the most you can with your dog, it make sense that you have a dog with the genetics and training that he will protect, even though a dog is no match for a gun. There is also real liability and responsibility that goes with owning a dog trained and genetically suited to bite for real. As I said, IMO schutzhund/IGP has significantly declined as a way of assessing and selecting GSDs for working ability and breed suitability. GSDs from European working lines don't often come from top winning IGP dogs/lines. There is KNPV in Holland, which is still a sport, but its goal is to select dogs for police work and some of the best dogs come from there, but most are unregistered Mal X's that at some time over the years have been outcrossed to other breeds to bring in new traits or strengthen other existing traits.There is an effort to revamp schutzhund with American Schutzhund, but I don't think the changes remotely go far enough. PSA had a rough start and almost failed, but is largely thriving, originated as an American protection sport, which is unusual, and the quality of training has vastly improved from its beginnings. Because the U.S. is so large and the working dog culture is different than in Europe where in some parts you can find an IGP club with little trouble or distance to travel, finding a good PSA club is not so easy. What general area of the country are you in, such as the south, east, mid Atlantic, west, central, etc?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I think that finding and training a dog that will truly bite a human to protect you may be more difficult than it seems.
> Many people get significant ‘protection’ through deterrent. My pup is only 6 months and he gets a lot of respect and fear on walks. It would take one strong nerved attacker to approach.
> This might be asking too much. But what type of protection do you foresee needing?


I'm a really outdoorsy person. As soon as I move out, I plan out being on any and every hiking trail I can find, visiting every and all types of national and state parks and just being outside whenever I can be. On my own. My mom barely likes me going to parks on my own now (even one right down the street!) so this dog would really be my best friend and guardian while also reassurance for my mom that while on one of these outdoor adventures I won't just be a sitting duck. So I guess that would mean protection from unwanted company?


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I find PP training boring, usually done by people not committed to become better handlers and trainers and not really knowing how to train a dog, and its utility is limited. If someone wants to harm you they will simply shoot you and/ or your dog. There are a handful of people out there that can actually select and train the right dog for PP. Sport should be for enjoying your dog, and for some, if you are going to invest the time it takes to accomplish the most you can with your dog, it make sense that you have a dog with the genetics and training that he will protect, even though a dog is no match for a gun. There is also real liability and responsibility that goes with owning a dog trained and genetically suited to bite for real. As I said, IMO schutzhund/IGP has significantly declined as a way of assessing and selecting GSDs for working ability and breed suitability. GSDs from European working lines don't often come from top winning IGP dogs/lines. There is KNPV in Holland, which is still a sport, but its goal is to select dogs for police work and some of the best dogs come from there, but most are unregistered Mal X's that at some time over the years have been outcrossed to other breeds to bring in new traits or strengthen other existing traits.There is an effort to revamp schutzhund with American Schutzhund, but I don't think the changes remotely go far enough. PSA had a rough start and almost failed, but is largely thriving, originated as an American protection sport, which is unusual, and the quality of training has vastly improved from its beginnings. Because the U.S. is so large and the working dog culture is different than in Europe where in some parts you can find an IGP club with little trouble or distance to travel, finding a good PSA club is not so easy. What general area of the country are you in, such as the south, east, mid Atlantic, west, central, etc?


I'm in the west. California now, but I'll likely end up in another western state when I move out.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

@Chip Blasiole And about that gun part, I know. I know you may just be saying that for emphasis but just to share-- my mom actually wants me trained and licensed the day I get out of here so I have two options because of the fact. Her thinking: If they're unarmed but determined, they get the dog. If push comes to shove, they get the bullet.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There are some very good PSA clubs out west. Regarding starting with an adult vs. a pup, there are pros and cons to both. A pup is a crap shoot, but you can increase your odds by doing your homework and making sure you get good information. With an adult, you can see what you are getting, check the dog out for health issues, but you often don't know what is the result of training vs. genetics. Also, if the dog is so good, why is he being sold? Sometimes a breeder has enough of a dog's genetics from the dog's progeny, but usually that type of dog will be older and used as a stud dog by his new owner. IMO, with the right pup and a good club, you will learn so much more than with an adult and you will be able to ease more comfortably into a dog's maturity and the potential issues it might present starting with a pup. My bias is that you really need to find someone who either knows the dogs and lines your are selecting a pup from and how they tend to produce, or a breeder who has actually developed their own lines through generations of breeding and can better predict what one of their breedings will produce. Too many breeders, often in the U.S. will breed two top sport dogs with little to no knowledge of what dominant genes the parents or the dogs close up in the pedigree tend to produce. Just because a dog is good doesn't mean it is a good producer. One rule of thumb is too look for producers of producers in the first five or so generations of a pedigree. And even then what one person defines as a good producer is going to be subjective depending on what type of dog one prefers. Other things like hips and elbow health, genetic diseases, etc. people tend to agree on. Someone looking for a police dog would likely be looking for a breeding that produces different dogs than someone looking for a high level sport dog, depending on the sport. A police dog should have a high tolerance for pain, where with, say an IGP dog, that trait is not so important because the dog is not going to be subjected to the same level of pain.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I support the second amendment and the right of concealed carry.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Symone said:


> I'm in the west. California now, but I'll likely end up in another western state when I move out.


If you're close to the Bay Area where I am Symone, IPO, there's a lot of options for you to see. People to meet, and dogs you're going to like. Being around people with a goal of not just going out training , but training for and trialing dogs gives you a different perspective. It gives you a different feeling about all the blah,blah,blah WIBackpacker mentioned. There are a couple of PSA clubs around here. Gilroy and the peninsula someplace, but I'm not so sure they're always active. So. Cal, I don't know.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There are some very good PSA clubs out west. Regarding starting with an adult vs. a pup, there are pros and cons to both. A pup is a crap shoot, but you can increase your odds by doing your homework and making sure you get good information. With an adult, you can see what you are getting, check the dog out for health issues, but you often don't know what is the result of training vs. genetics. Also, if the dog is so good, why is he being sold? Sometimes a breeder has enough of a dog's genetics from the dog's progeny, but usually that type of dog will be older and used as a stud dog by his new owner. IMO, with the right pup and a good club, you will learn so much more than with an adult and you will be able to ease more comfortably into a dog's maturity and the potential issues it might present starting with a pup. My bias is that you really need to find someone who either knows the dogs and lines your are selecting a pup from and how they tend to produce, or a breeder who has actually developed their own lines through generations of breeding and can better predict what one of their breedings will produce. Too many breeders, often in the U.S. will breed two top sport dogs with little to no knowledge of what dominant genes the parents or the dogs close up in the pedigree tend to produce. Just because a dog is good doesn't mean it is a good producer. One rule of thumb is too look for producers of producers in the first five or so generations of a pedigree. And even then what one person defines as a good producer is going to be subjective depending on what type of dog one prefers. Other things like hips and elbow health, genetic diseases, etc. people tend to agree on. Someone looking for a police dog would likely be looking for a breeding that produces different dogs than someone looking for a high level sport dog, depending on the sport. A police dog should have a high tolerance for pain, where with, say an IGP dog, that trait is not so important because the dog is not going to be subjected to the same level of pain.


Very good points and very questions that I'll keep in mind if I end up deciding to get a fully trained dog. Do you have any particular recommendations for PSA clubs? The only thing I really know to look for are dogs they've trained and titled.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> If you're close to the Bay Area where I am Symone, IPO, there's a lot of options for you to see. People to meet, and dogs you're going to like. Being around people with a goal of not just going out training , but training for and trialing dogs gives you a different perspective. It gives you a different feeling about all the blah,blah,blah WIBackpacker mentioned. There are a couple of PSA clubs around here. Gilroy and the peninsula someplace, but I'm not so sure they're always active. So. Cal, I don't know.


Yeah, I actually am in the Bay Area. I've found a few and with the help of someone, was able to judge them based on some of the information they offered on their website. Apparently, the helper of one is going to be on a world team. I'll be going to one of their training sessions in about two weeks.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I am not sure what you mean by a fully trained dog. One of the nice things about PSA is that you can keep trialing for a PSA 1,2 or 3 after you have obtained the title to see if you can do better and qualify for regional or national competition. Then keep in mind that a titled dog is trained for that particular sport. If you wanted a dog for PP also, you would need to find a good trainer and do some retraining because in some ways PSA is inconsistent with PP because it arguably overemphasizes controlled aggression where dogs are challenged by a decoy and are not allowed to bite using their own discretion. As for what to look for in clubs, the better clubs are going to have members who have titled dogs to level 2 and 3 titles and have competed in national competitions. The exercises, training, and nerves of the dog become significantly more important and difficult at the higher levels, so only dogs with good genetics (for PSA) and good foundation training are going to be successful. As I said, only one GSD has ever obtained a PSA 3. Just to complicate things, there are those who would like to look at breedings that would have a good chance at producing strong police dog prospects and would never consider a breeding from a male and female with a PSA 3 title. One reason is because those dogs are likely not that balanced and are usually highly driven prey dogs that don't have strong defensive aggression or much dominance that can bring power to a police dog. It comes down to what you want to do with your dog, do you want to explore breeding, and what type of dog you like. For example, some of the male Mal X's competing only weigh about 50 pounds. Other weigh 95 pounds. There is a lot of variability in non FCI registered Mal X's which are more popular in protection sports than FCI registered Mals because the former tend to be better dogs. With GSDs it is a little different. Different working GSD bloodlines can vary a lot. For PSA, a GSD with very good prey drive and nerves, good food drive and a higher threshold for defense will serve you much better than a super hard ass, dominant GSD with very strong defensive aggression that is on the sharp side. Many top level PSA competitors will not train a GSD for the sport.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I am not sure what you mean by a fully trained dog. One of the nice things about PSA is that you can keep trialing for a PSA 1,2 or 3 after you have obtained the title to see if you can do better and qualify for regional or national competition. Then keep in mind that a titled dog is trained for that particular sport. If you wanted a dog for PP also, you would need to find a good trainer and do some retraining because in some ways PSA is inconsistent with PP because it arguably overemphasizes controlled aggression where dogs are challenged by a decoy and are not allowed to bite using their own discretion. As for what to look for in clubs, the better clubs are going to have members who have titled dogs to level 2 and 3 titles and have competed in national competitions. The exercises, training, and nerves of the dog become significantly more important and difficult at the higher levels, so only dogs with good genetics (for PSA) and good foundation training are going to be successful. As I said, only one GSD has ever obtained a PSA 3. Just to complicate things, there are those who would like to look at breedings that would have a good chance at producing strong police dog prospects and would never consider a breeding from a male and female with a PSA 3 title. One reason is because those dogs are likely not that balanced and are usually highly driven prey dogs that don't have strong defensive aggression or much dominance that can bring power to a police dog. It comes down to what you want to do with your dog, do you want to explore breeding, and what type of dog you like. For example, some of the male Mal X's competing only weigh about 50 pounds. Other weigh 95 pounds. There is a lot of variability in non FCI registered Mal X's which are more popular in protection sports than FCI registered Mals because the former tend to be better dogs. With GSDs it is a little different. Different working GSD bloodlines can vary a lot. For PSA, a GSD with very good prey drive and nerves, good food drive and a higher threshold for defense will serve you much better than a super hard ass, dominant GSD with very strong defensive aggression that is on the sharp side. Many top level PSA competitors will not train a GSD for the sport.


Oh, by fully trained I just meant an older adult that'd already started some type of protection work and maybe even had a title. And thanks for the info, it helps a lot. I've actually found a few trainers for personal protection too, but I'll keep searching and will definitely keep an open mind about everything else just in case I change my mind or a sport ends up as the better choice for me and my dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IGP, PSA and actuall PP are different beasts. I do not expect my IPO3 dog to protect me based on his training. He's trained to target a sleeve. I just now am moving into PSA with him and he will be taught to target the bicep. Would these dogs protect us in real life? Possibly but I know how a police K9 targets and is trains is very different than IGP and more similar to PSA.

BUT the first thing you need to do is just go watch dogs. Visit clubs and talk to people. Find a breeder. I also would NOT suggest, being your first dog, that you go for the hardest, baddest, dog you can find thinking it will protect you best. You need to be able to control it and that is obedience.


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> IGP, PSA and actuall PP are different beasts. I do not expect my IPO3 dog to protect me based on his training. He's trained to target a sleeve. I just now am moving into PSA with him and he will be taught to target the bicep. Would these dogs protect us in real life? Possibly but I know how a police K9 targets and is trains is very different than IGP and more similar to PSA.
> 
> BUT the first thing you need to do is just go watch dogs. Visit clubs and talk to people. Find a breeder. I also would NOT suggest, being your first dog, that you go for the hardest, baddest, dog you can find thinking it will protect you best. You need to be able to control it and that is obedience.


Yeah, I will be soon. I can't wait! And the 'hardest, baddest dog I could find' was never an option for me. I've known my limits for a long time when it comes to dogs and they have yet to changed so I'll make sure to talk to spill every detail about them when I find a breeder. My siblings actually think that's the reason why I want a German Shepherd-- just to have this dog that I can show off and make attack people for the fun of it but that couldn't be furthest from the truth lol.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Excellent.  The helper I've been training with is a K9 officer as well as a PSA decoy and IGP helper. It's very interesting the different things the dogs are taught.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think one of the biggest misconceptions about PSA is the level of control needed. For example, one thing we train for is for a dog to maintain a focused heel heel while a decoy is walking next to the dog shaking clatter sticks and actually striking the dog with them intermittently and the dog doesn't break his focus on the handler. As you pointed out, this approach is very inconsistent with training a dog for PP.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd say in the beginning, just look around and see what you like, then see how that matches up with what you want to do.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Symone,
> Since this thread is under "Finding the Right Pup" here is a link to the type of pup that would be a good match for you.


I want that pup, lol!


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## Symone (Feb 25, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd say in the beginning, just look around and see what you like, then see how that matches up with what you want to do.


Alrighty, will do.


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