# Need Advice - Problem with High Protein?



## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

I recently switched my 19 mo. old male to the Wysong line, which is 40% protein. Now, my dog is drinking a large amount of water, but, only after he eats. I'm concerned, because this dog was never a big drinker. He also doesn't seem to be urinating a lot after all this drinking. Several hours later, or even the next morning, the floodgates will open, & he will empty his bladder. I contacted Wysong, & they said that increased water intake is common when switching to a high protein diet. I know that diets & protein have been discussed on this forum, but, is there a rule of thumb for a general amount of protein that a young adult should be eating? Before my dog was eating the Oma's Pride raw diet, & it was mixed with veggies, so, the protein was in the low 20's. He's been on other quality diets that were in the 32-34% protein range, & didn't drink like this.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Determining the actual protein level in a diet is tricky; you can't go by just the protein percentage listed, it has to be converted to protein percent dry weight. I've seen the formula and it's easy to use, but no longer have it. You would be surprised to see what the actual percentages are once converted.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't know anything about this food but I fed Evo which was around 42% protein and had issues with bloodwork related to the kidneys/water balance.

You may want to ask the company what the ash content is of this product though I imagine it is ok because meat is listed before meal but I don't know. Is the food hydrated for feeding? I know when I used to feed raw they did not drink nearly the water they drank on kibble.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

25% - 30 +/- is the best range.

If the excessive drinking doesn't stop then I would switch. It is a sign the food is not right for this dog. 

When calories start to get protein heavy the kidneys have to work much harder and frankly why risk that if the dog is only going to use 2/3rds of the protein in the food?


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## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

Elaine, I did find the formula for converting the protein percentage to dry weight. You're right, it was easy to use, & the results were very surprising! Jocoyn, yes, I do rehydrate the kibble & freeze dried raw prior to feeding. I contacted the company on all the formulas I rotate, & here are the ash percentages:
chicken kibble & freeze dried raw- 6.1% ash
beef, canned - 3.4% ash
venison canned - 8.7% ash
What percentage of ash should I be aiming for here? And, I agree with you, my dog drank very little water when he was still eating raw. Even when he ate 1 meal raw, & 1 meal of this, I didn't see his water consumption increase.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

LongFunRun said:


> 25% - 30 +/- is the best range.
> 
> If the excessive drinking doesn't stop then I would switch. It is a sign the food is not right for this dog.
> 
> When calories start to get protein heavy the kidneys have to work much harder and frankly why risk that if the dog is only going to use 2/3rds of the protein in the food?


My vets have always told me that high protein isn't necessarily a good thing for most dogs. If you are competing they may need the extra energy but otherwise, too hard on the kidneys.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Nico Pico said:


> Elaine, I did find the formula for converting the protein percentage to dry weight. You're right, it was easy to use, & the results were very surprising! Jocoyn, yes, I do rehydrate the kibble & freeze dried raw prior to feeding. I contacted the company on all the formulas I rotate, & here are the ash percentages:
> chicken kibble & freeze dried raw- 6.1% ash
> beef, canned - 3.4% ash
> venison canned - 8.7% ash
> What percentage of ash should I be aiming for here? And, I agree with you, my dog drank very little water when he was still eating raw. Even when he ate 1 meal raw, & 1 meal of this, I didn't see his water consumption increase.


How many grams of protein per day is the dog getting on this diet?


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## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

LongFunRun, the dry matter protein percentages are as follows:
Archetype, freeze dried raw - 48.6% protein
Optimum Performance kibble - 31% protein
Beef canned - 58.5% protein
Venison canned - 43.6%
Marnie, no, my dog isn't competing right now, & to be honest, he's seems a bit more sluggish on this diet.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Nico Pico said:


> LongFunRun, the dry matter protein percentages are as follows:
> Archetype, freeze dried raw - 48.6% protein
> Optimum Performance kibble - 31% protein
> Beef canned - 58.5% protein
> ...


Oooops you made an error. Optimum Performance is 40% GA Protein with 12% moisture, so 88% Dry Matter.

So the calculation is 40/.88 or 45.45%

I can't get enough information from the Wysong website, but I will guess that food has 115 grams in a cup, so the amount of grams of protein is simply 40% times 115 grams, so 46 grams per cup. If you are feeding 4 cups that is more protein than I would use in light of the low fat content.

See how it goes over the next week or so but you may find that your dog needs more fat and carbohydrates and less protein. If the dog is forced to use protein for other than muscle repair, energy, then you will see the heavy drinking. A young active dog is a better candidate for a 30/20 style food that has cleaner fuel, so to speak, and a better protein/fat relationship.

If you are going to heavily train this dog, especially during the summer months, this is really the wrong food. Protein sacrifices 30% of the calories it provides and in that process creates heat.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

High protein is fine as long as it comes from a meat source...Period... I went and looked at the ingredient list and the majority of the protein in that product comes from a non meat source. The first key is how high the protein is, compared to the fat %. I would change dog food. Besides they have had a mold recall, ugh.

Wysong - More Info On Recall

I really don't like a lot about this product, look wheat, corn and lots of it. Poultry fat, an unnamed fat is really bad.

*Ingredients:* Organic Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken Giblets, Vegetable Protein (consisting of one or more of the following: Potato Protein, Rice Protein, Corn Protein, Wheat Protein), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols as a source of Vitamin E), Eggs, Yogurt, Flax Seed, Apple, Beet Pulp, Plums, Inulin, Dried Wheat Grass Powder, Dried Barley Grass Powder, Krill Oil, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Oregano Extract, Sage Extract, Rosemary Extract, Direct-Fed Microorganisms (Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactococcus lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus lactis), Ascorbic Acid, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Tony, you really need to properly represent the recall if you are going to disparage a food. The products were recalled in 2009 because moisture levels were out of spec. It states no mold was found. Actually, "no recalls" can mean the inspectors at a plant are asleep at the wheel. Too many recalls can mean they are not learning from their mistakes. Recalls are initiated by a company, often based on records review and without any negative product impact...some recalls do have product impact. My issue with the recent diamond recall is that they lagged over two weeks before recalling products from the plant with the salmonella issue...and the food I opened was clearly bad with a foul odor and returned well before they pulled back TOTW.

You DO know that Orijen had a recall of cat food sold to Austraila in 2008 where 27 cats developed neurological issues resulting in 4 euthanized. Orijen did, however, argue that the issue was because Australia requires irradiation of their pet foods (eeeek and they can zap the dickens out of food over here and not tell us a darned thing)

I know you have this thing about Orijen but it is NOT the only decent food out there.

I am not sure how you assess that the vegetable protein is the major source of protein since it is listed after a named meat, meat meal, and giblets.......all good stuff......and the chicken is organic (more than can be said for Orijen's chicken)...sad to say I understand there is not a source of organic chicken meal. Perhaps by definition.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

---------------

Now back to the original post - yes I understand the concern about the high protein levels because my dogs creatinine went off when he was on Evo (no grains or Peas or vegetable protein there) which was 42% at the time I think. 

And my concern was...was it due to the high protein or due to the high ash. The dog seemed fine but after the bloodwork I made a change as I did not want to have prolonged stress on those kidneys. I have heard similar stories with others dogs on uber protein diets.

I think this concern and questioning appropriate protein levels is a valid one.



My understanding for a working dog is FAT is the fuel of choice. You only need enough protein to maintain muscle and rebuild if doing work that tears it down which is perhaps more of a concern for a dog doing weight pulling etc. Certainly not the typical working pet doing an hour or two a day and then on the weekends.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Tony, you really need to properly represent the recall if you are going to disparage a food. The products were recalled in 2009 because moisture levels were out of spec. It states no mold was found. Actually, "no recalls" can mean the inspectors at a plant are asleep at the wheel. Too many recalls can mean they are not learning from their mistakes. Recalls are initiated by a company, often based on records review and without any negative product impact...some recalls do have product impact. My issue with the recent diamond recall is that they lagged over two weeks before recalling products from the plant with the salmonella issue...and the food I opened was clearly bad with a foul odor and returned well before they pulled back TOTW.
> 
> You DO know that Orijen had a recall of cat food sold to Austraila in 2008 where 27 cats developed neurological issues resulting in 4 euthanized. Orijen did, however, argue that the issue was because Australia requires irradiation of their pet foods (eeeek and they can zap the dickens out of food over here and not tell us a darned thing)
> 
> ...


The recall was a recall and I always try to leave a link so people can make their own opinions on that recall. Since I live so far away from where the Diamond issue has taken place I do not know anyone who has had issues, but TRUST is the name of the game to me. Yes, I heard about Orijens recall and many others. 
What, Orijen's chicken isn't in oooorganic's league, give me a break. I doubt the quality of chicken being used is nothing like Orijen's. Organic is what in chicken, if this much Organic chicken is used their wouldn't be anything left for people. I just wonder what parts of the ooorganic chicken is being used.

Organic chicken in dog food - Google Search. 

I haven't figured out why you keep bashing such a great dog food other than it's made in Canada. Maybe you are just jealous of all the awards they win every year. Maybe you just weren't the first to use it, but you are goofy to keep bashing Orijen.
There is absolutely no doubt that the majority of the protein in this product comes from non meat sources and that is why all the water drinking.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Some of these posts make me just shake my head and wonder...


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> There is absolutely no doubt that the majority of the protein in this product comes from non meat sources and that is why all the water drinking.



That has nothing to do with it. Protein is not an efficient source of energy. Because of how the body metabolizes it, hydration requirements increase, no matter the type of protein source.

This is why people trialing dogs push up fat more than protein as a % of diet. More efficient and easier on the dog's systems.

I just spent a nice Mother's Day morning with a working retriever trainer. She uses a 30/20 during training and dumps extra fat on during trialing. While she's not "old school" enough to do it herself, she remembers guys dumping bacon grease over kibble


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh goodness, this is silly. Not bashing Orijen. Even stated in plenty of threads I was considering using it in a blend. But their chickens are probably like everyone else's chickens. 

Yes, I remember bacon grease on dog food. I agree the FAT burns more efficiently. Burning protein is costly. No need for more than needed. I was on the bandwagon until I saw the bloodwork after a year on EVO and the restoration of normal blood values on a lower (32%) protein dog foodl.

I agree based on experience that 30/20 seems to work best. Add fat when you need it.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

GrammaD said:


> This is why people trialing dogs push up fat more than protein as a % of diet. More efficient and easier on the dog's systems.


Geez, what is fat , protein !!! Now, I did find a very informational site. I know it is on humans but it still is as close as you can get when getting proof.

Animal protein, animal fat, and cholesterol intakes a... [Stroke. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI


Animal protein was not significantly associated with infarction mortality after adjustment for animal fat and cholesterol.


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## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

Thank you for all your help. Even though I'm not a newbie, I sure feel like one. It's obvious my dog can't stay on this diet. In addition to his increased water consumption, he's scratching more than usual. When I switched him from raw, I scrambled to try to find something that he would eat. He's one of those fussy eaters, & already on the lean side. He will flat out refuse food, if it doesn't interest him. I've already tried Orijen, TOTW, Wellness, Merrick, Blue Buffalo, Fromm, & Kirkland Premium made by Diamond. I don't know what else to try. I do think the 30/20 will work best for him, He's not being trained heavily right now either. But, how do you add more fat to the diet anyway? Can anyone recommend a decent brand that I can try?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Nico. Now why would you need to increase fat above 30/20 if not actively working him....and above 20% would be a dog working at least several hours a day. I think we were saying that if a dog needs more energy for purposeing of working, fat is a better way of getting it . Does he have allergies? Have you tried the LID diets?

Your dog is grown; was he doing well with a different food? Just not enough protein than you thought he should be getting?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Geez, what is fat , protein !!! Now, I did find a very informational site. I know it is on humans but it still is as close as you can get when getting proof.
> 
> Animal protein, animal fat, and cholesterol intakes a... [Stroke. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> ...


Dogs are not people and they process fat differently. Artherosclerosis and coronary artery diseases are very uncommon in dogs and usually associated with other disease states.

Perhaps this web article will help explain. There are several at this site. I did not go digging up a journal article though I posted one earlier that stated the same thing but it was from 1994 .

I don't think anyone said animal protein would cause heart attack or stroke but that the burning of excess protein for fuel was inefficient and also put additional stress on the kidneys.

Dogs Blood Fat Fraction

http://www.hilarywatson.com/athletes.pdf

I think you need to consider what a dog is doing when you assess what you are feeding it. That wolf laying on your sofa is probably not covering vast geographies on a daily basis hunting for food and can do quite fine on protein in the twenties. Working dogs need more protein to repair and build muscle that is damaged through excercise.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Nico Pico said:


> Thank you for all your help. Even though I'm not a newbie, I sure feel like one. It's obvious my dog can't stay on this diet. In addition to his increased water consumption, he's scratching more than usual. When I switched him from raw, I scrambled to try to find something that he would eat. He's one of those fussy eaters, & already on the lean side. He will flat out refuse food, if it doesn't interest him. I've already tried Orijen, TOTW, Wellness, Merrick, Blue Buffalo, Fromm, & Kirkland Premium made by Diamond. I don't know what else to try. I do think the 30/20 will work best for him, He's not being trained heavily right now either. But, how do you add more fat to the diet anyway? Can anyone recommend a decent brand that I can try?


Annamaet Ultra/Extra/Salcha
Dr. Tim's Kinesis/Pursuit
Enhance Professional Athlete
Precise Competition/Endurance
Eukanuba Premium 
Pro Pac Performance
Eagle Power Pack
Native Level 2/3
Loyall Active Adult


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## robfromga (May 10, 2012)

Funny thing, I was just talking this over with my vet the other day. We are feeding BB. Basics. He was saying that feeding a large breed type food to a pup was fine, and from yhr info he's been getting its better for the dog due to its protein levels being lower than puppy food. He said shoot for about 20-22% protein. And that the dog is going to grow as big as its genetic potential, extra protien isn't going to let the dog grow any "better" . His point was your feeding a good nutrient rich food. If the the dog digests it well, then stick with it.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Geez, what is fat , protein !!! .


Fat.Is.Not.Protein.

This is why dogs who have sensitivities to certain proteins can often still eat the fat from that same protein source.

When those of us who work our dogs talk about efficiency of fat for calories versus protein we aren't talking about cardiac health LOL What burns most cleanly- provides the most energy with the least metabolic challenge? FAT (for dogs) Carbs (for humans)

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but at times you really do not come off as knowing very much about this subject.


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## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

I was wondering if participating in Schutzhund would warrant an increase in fat, above the 30/20 we've been discussing? Right now though, the 30/20 would be fine. The commercially prepared raw diet that he was eating didn't include grains. He did tolerate brown rice in the Kirkland Premium, but, I want to stay away from any Diamond Products. The raw diet became too expensive to continue feeding after I lost my job. Plus, the dog didn't seem to like it, & would only pick at in the bowl. He is also very lean, & can't afford to lose any weight. I was just searching for a quality diet that he would eat, not that I thought he needed additional protein. Everything that was recommend was grain free, not necessarily LID. I lost my last dog to cancer, & I often wondered if her diet was a factor. That's why I'm trying to do the right thing for my dog, as well as my budget.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

> Can anyone recommend a decent brand that I can try?


In addition to the ones already mentioned, Nutrisource Performance and Super Performance.



> I was wondering if participating in Schutzhund would warrant an increase in fat, above the 30/20 we've been discussing?


Probably not. Although training for the Endurance Test might. 

My lab didn't need anything extra for agility. Field work is much more physically demanding though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

EDIT- REPLY IS TO OP I don't think so. YOu are talking relatively short bursts of energy. May want some for the A/D but 30/20 is for hunting dogs working all day. My interest is based on personal experience with working a cadaver dog 4 to 6 hours in the summer heat and humidity...he did better with higher fat and protein than was in the kibble I was feeding him, which DID give him a coat to die for (Natural Balance LID) but he suffered for endurance in the summer heat. This dog does better when I jack up the protein and fat a bit.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with brown rice that I can see if the dog is not allergic to it. They are no more designed to eat potatoes than grains so they both have to be cooked to be utilized. So much speculation as to why are our dogs getting cancer.

EDIT - ha great grannies think alike! The Nutrisource is still on my short list. I want to look into the cooking temps as one site said they were rather high (350F). One article (journal article) said extrusion temps this high can damage the unsaturated fats in the dog food as well as the lysine at these temps. It is an economical food. I cook at 350F often. Makes me wonder for myself more than my dog as extrustion times are a lot shorter than my cooking times! IT looks like a good food and economical to feed.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Nico Pico said:


> I was wondering if participating in Schutzhund would warrant an increase in fat, above the 30/20 we've been discussing? Right now though, the 30/20 would be fine. The commercially prepared raw diet that he was eating didn't include grains. He did tolerate brown rice in the Kirkland Premium, but, I want to stay away from any Diamond Products. The raw diet became too expensive to continue feeding after I lost my job. Plus, the dog didn't seem to like it, & would only pick at in the bowl. He is also very lean, & can't afford to lose any weight. I was just searching for a quality diet that he would eat, not that I thought he needed additional protein. Everything that was recommend was grain free, not necessarily LID. I lost my last dog to cancer, & I often wondered if her diet was a factor. That's why I'm trying to do the right thing for my dog, as well as my budget.


He needs a good balance of short burst and aerobic/endurance energy, short burst equals carbohydrates and aerobic/endurance equals fat.

I would sincerely doubt there is a benefit above 20% that is why most foods stop there.

Any of the foods I listed above will do the trick and they range from $.75lb to about $1.50lb.

By the way what county are you in in NJ?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Although this "White Paper" was published by Orijen, the data is taken from 33 different studies/doctor's.
Thought you might find it interesting and beneficial in your quest for answers! 
http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Although this "White Paper" was published by Orijen, the data is taken from 33 different studies/doctor's.
> Thought you might find it interesting and beneficial in your quest for answers!
> http://files.championpetfoods.com/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf


Interesting that you would post this. The Honest Kitchen you feed is in the same range of protein that we are suggesting and NOT the uber high value found in Orijen and Evo and some others. I honestly do believe that perhaps the high protein kidney/blood chemistries issues I have seen as have others has more to do with ash content than protein content but for working I stil believe fat is a better fuel. 

I have read that the FDA thinks that perhaps the issues with the chicken jerky treats is the concentrated protein. It is NOT natural for dogs to eat concentrated dried protein all in one setting. Raw Meat is naturally hydrated. Could bee too much going into the bloodstream at one time or some such thing. 

Grain-Free Dog Food | All Natural Dog Food | Dehydrated Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Interesting that you would post this. The Honest Kitchen you feed is in the same range of protein that we are suggesting and NOT the uber high value found in Orijen and Evo and some others. I honestly do believe that perhaps the high protein kidney/blood chemistries issues I have seen as have others has more to do with ash content than protein content but for working I stil believe fat is a better fuel.
> 
> I have read that the FDA thinks that perhaps the issues with the chicken jerky treats is the concentrated protein. It is NOT natural for dogs to eat concentrated dried protein all in one setting. Raw Meat is naturally hydrated. Could bee too much going into the bloodstream at one time or some such thing.
> 
> Grain-Free Dog Food | All Natural Dog Food | Dehydrated Dog Food | The Honest Kitchen


Agreed! Sometimes is just good to investigate different views. 
I've been making my own total raw diet for my babies for 17 years and just use the HK when I run out or go away for a few days.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Agreed! Sometimes is just good to investigate different views.
> I've been making my own total raw diet for my babies for 17 years and just use the HK when I run out or go away for a few days.


 
THIS could be the flaw in the logic - From the article -

​_"The natural diet contains almost no carbohydrate at all, and the small predigested grains, fruits & vegetables in the stomach of a prey animal make up a very small fraction of the total diet_ "
 
My understanding is that ACTUALLY the stomach content is not necessarily eaten first as reported- the hind leg muscle meat is the most valuable. AND they love fruit as reported by Carmen in the analysis of coyote stomach contents and the video. I KNOW my dogs eat green grass, and LOVE wild strawberries and fruits and greens-bet they eat nuts and acorns too- and they certainly like to eat the predigested carb rich poop of ruminants! IF I let them, my dogs would chow down on that and I bet a dime to a dollar so do wolves. 

Grains are not natural for dogs OR humans when you think about it.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Grains are not natural for dogs OR humans when you think about it.


Why are grains not natural for humans? There is evidence that humans have been utilizing grain in their diet for over 100,000 years.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

You'll get my oatmeal when you pry it from my cold dead sticky fingers


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Clyde said:


> Why are grains not natural for humans? There is evidence that humans have been utilizing grain in their diet for over 100,000 years.


And how many billion asians eat rice everyday for 75% of their calories?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Clyde said:


> Why are grains not natural for humans? There is evidence that humans have been utilizing grain in their diet for over 100,000 years.


By that I mean we have to cook them to extract nutritional value. Yes, without grains we would be hunter gatherers and there would be no civilization as we know it. And dogs have been sharing our cooked grains with us all along..........


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> By that I mean we have to cook them to extract nutritional value. Yes, without grains we would be hunter gatherers and there would be no civilization as we know it. And dogs have been sharing our cooked grains with us all along..........


That is 100% true. I laugh when I hear the ancestral diet bull. The history of wolf domestication is that a few very social pack members entered settlements to get leftover food, mostly grain products. North American wolves ate kibbled corn and other wild grains in Native American settlements long before they were put in dog food.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

I just want to put my two cents in for the fat = protein comment earlier. My degree is in human nutrition and I work as a food service director for a school district in Ohio, so I can completely assure you that fats and proteins are NOT the same. Proteins provide 7 cal/gram - fats provide 9 cal/gram. They are metabolized differently. Humans do need carbs (grains being one form) for proper brain activity and other functions. These too are metabolized differently than proteins & fats and supply 4cal/gram. I realize that one cannot fully equate human nutrition with canine, but there certainly are parallels with all mammals.

I also agree with the poster that arterio and atherosclerosis in dogs is not caused by diet - my vet assured me that it was a genetic disease when my Schatzie died of a massive heart attack 9 yrs. ago. OK, sorry for going on and on, but as one of my professors said - "Nutrition is a science, not an opinion." Thanks!


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## Nico Pico (Mar 5, 2012)

I really didn't understand my dog's dietary requirements before, & the information you've all provided me with is truly invaluable. Thanks for taking the time to educate me, as well as assist me. I'll research the diets that you've recommended, & hope my dog eats what I choose for him.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

SusiQ said:


> I just want to put my two cents in for the fat = protein comment earlier. My degree is in human nutrition and I work as a food service director for a school district in Ohio, so I can completely assure you that fats and proteins are NOT the same. Proteins provide 7 cal/gram - fats provide 9 cal/gram. They are metabolized differently. Humans do need carbs (grains being one form) for proper brain activity and other functions. These too are metabolized differently than proteins & fats and supply 4cal/gram. I realize that one cannot fully equate human nutrition with canine, but there certainly are parallels with all mammals.
> 
> I also agree with the poster that arterio and atherosclerosis in dogs is not caused by diet - my vet assured me that it was a genetic disease when my Schatzie died of a massive heart attack 9 yrs. ago. OK, sorry for going on and on, but as one of my professors said - "Nutrition is a science, not an opinion." Thanks!


For dogs it is 3.5 calories/gram for carbs and protein but 8.5 for fat.


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## LongFunRun (May 6, 2012)

Nico Pico said:


> I really didn't understand my dog's dietary requirements before, & the information you've all provided me with is truly invaluable. Thanks for taking the time to educate me, as well as assist me. I'll research the diets that you've recommended, & hope my dog eats what I choose for him.


Use what Pro's use. That is the best advice you can get. One of the most prominent Schutzhund trainers in the world uses (and formulated) a 22%/22% food sold by Best Breed.

Most pro's don't like to feed as much protein as you have been led to believe.

Personally, I like 30/20 types because of the value and quality of these foods, even Pro Plan and Eukanuba make great ones.


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