# Not all is peachy in our world- Jumping Issues



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The ground was hard enough (from the cold) that I could actually do some training outside today. Without the cold, the ground is basically mud which has made it difficult for outdoor training.

Anyway, I setup some setpoint stuff and thought it was going really well. However, after watching the slow motion and frame-by-frame shots, I can see Pimg's form is crap. I did forget that the setpoint should have a double jump in front of the spider instead of a single, but still- you can see the form is all jacked up. In fact, it's very bazaar that Pimg is even able to do what she is doing. You can see her jump into the setpoint landing on her front feet- but then lift off her front feet before her rear feet even land. How weird. 

In a way, I'm glad to see this. It's evident that while Pimg _can_ jump, she needs more training in how to jump efficiently. We will continue to work on this.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

In the first high jumps, I think you have her set up to close to the jump, She is a long legged girl, and needs more room to get some momentum up. I think if you back her up and give her some running room you'll see her jump more , maybe the word would be 'effortlessly'? 

Big dogs are always going to have better jumping at the lower jumps, and you'll see speed increase as well.

I think she jumps "fine" not to early, not to late, but I think you'll find if you start her off further back you will see a difference. 

Just my 2 cents


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for watching Diane. I'm trying to use as much info from the DVDs as possible. Salo did mention that for Border Collies she typically uses five to six foot long spider legs, while for bigger dogs, sevon foot legs are more appropriate. I think the leg length should be fine, but I'm not sure. Perhaps moving them shorter will force Pimg to get her legs under her. Maybe moving them further away might allow her room to collect more... I really don't know.

I sent a message to Susan Salo (found her email addy online) and am hoping she replies.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I am not really familiar enough with Susan Salo's work to give any sort of opinion. I've used some info she's had in clean run, some of her gridwork stuff but never used the spider legs or worked through her whole program. I will be interested to hear what she says though!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

One of the reasons I try to take seminars with the instructor, and only using reading materials or DVD's to supplement, is that I have a tendency to rush the training.

When I took Salo's seminar, one thing I remember crystal clear is when teaching her jumping style, the LAST thing you add way down the line (months?) is height to the jumps. When you want to teach style and takeoff/landing for our dogs to think, you start with the jumps super low. 8" ? even.

I'm trying to see if I can reformat the video I have so you can see/hear her and if I succeed I'll post some of it.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

That would be great MRL! She does mention in the DVDs that jump height is the least important thing and that you don't need the bar high. I need to rewatch it, but I believe she does say that you can _work up_ to full jump height for setpoint (which is what we did- we didn't start at 24" in the session). I'd love to see what material you have!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Really try to listen. Comments from both sides of the camera have information on stuff we were learning. 

Course I didn't get the 'spider' part of the day taped for viewing, that would have helped. But I didn't remember it being full height. Even the start of this video has the jumps down to 20" rather than the 24". 

Pretty much all the lines of jumps were kept really low, though sometimes changed up to 12" then and 8" the 8" then 12" etc. REally more about the dog learning to look ahead and guage FOR ITSELF what the striding needs to be. The additional 'power' move to get up and over a jump can come later and is supposed to be the easier part. 

WE handlers were supposed to be out of the picture. Why we are at the far side of the jumps and not supposed to move other than the verbal to cue the release at the start. We want the dog looking at the job ahead and figuring it out on their own. No corrections. Food ON the target and best if we can be a bit distant from that target. PLUS leave a distance between the target and the jump so the dog has room to complete the jump naturally then take a stride or so to the target.

Pay attention to how close we are setting up our dogs to that first low bar. It's for the 'set point' for the jumping, not really the 'jump' (that's the double) to teach the proper take off for the double. That's why it's always low...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the video, MRL. I'm not really seeing a difference in how close you had (gorgeous) Bretta Lee to the line compared to how close I had Pimg to the spider. Seems about the same to me. The distance from the jump to the setpoint (whether outlined by the spider or a bar jump) also seems about the same to me. I'm also seeing that the reward is about 10' out from the double, which is about what I was doing. Unless I'm overlooking something, I'm not seeing much difference between what you had Bretta Lee doing and what I had Pimg doing. Well- obviously I did forget that it was supposed to be a double jump.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo, I was just telling everyone GENERALLY to make sure they set up close to the set jump, and you can see it in the video. We worked on the spider earlier in the seminar but it wasn't taped so I was just able to show the next progression in the training.

I wasn't commenting on how you setup your pup in front of the spider.

Though I wouldn't use 24" when you start for the single jump height.

One of the many interesting things about attending the seminar WITH Salo was her eye and experience. She'd frequently get up and move a jump just an inch or 2 closer together and we could instantly see a difference in the dogs jumping. Or and inch or 2 further away. Or move the handler. Or move the target. Or use a toy not a plastic target. Or move one jump height in the grid to 12" and keep the others at 8 inches, or switch it around. Tweaking, adjusting and COMMENTING on what we should be seeing (or not).

I think the taping above of my dogs was the second day (the spider was first day) because we had realized that even though we were taking notes and writing everything down (and I usually NEVER take notes so had to borrow paper!) we couldn't always SEE or remember what she was asking us to see. I needed her comments PLUS the video. The class wasn't just about teaching my dog to jump properly but also an attempt to teach all the handlers eye to SEE what was going on and how we can adjust. Have to admit Salo had more trouble teaching the handlers than the dogs!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Woah! I actually got a response from Susan Salo! How freak'n cool!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Very cool! Will we get to see a follow-up video?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Was gonna do it tonight, but once again- I haven't managed to leave work yet. It's getting a bit dark out there. I plan on getting some training in this weekend though.

Susan mentioned that from working with lots of other GSDs, she's noticed that they have a harder time getting all their leg collected under them for a correct angle of elevation. She mentioned that they often have a lot of leg behind the hip when standing, and it's difficult to get them collected properly. 

She suggested to use a low, wide double- 16" high with a 18" spread. She thinks this will help Pimg use more of her back end and less of her shoulders. 

She also mentioned that it didn't appear to her that Pimg was actually pulling off her shoulders, she's just a bit late to get them out of the way. (I'm not exactly sure what that means.)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I had a _really_ busy weekend and while Pimg got plenty of training (we train random stuff all the time- NILIF kind of stuff), we didn't working any set point drills.

I did just have this video pop up from my youtube subscription list though, and what great timing. The beginning says that the facilitator (which is equivalent to the spider) is 7' from the bar jump. I'm not so sure about that unless the dog is a very long dog. The dog fills the gap between the facilitator and the first bar jump sans about 1.5 feet. I'm guessing if the dog is 48" long (tip of nose to base of tail) then that gap is really closer to 5.5 feet. At any rate, the last jump is very, very nice. I would understand how Susan Salo may call this jump a "quiet" jump:





This gives me a better reference at what this kind of work should look like for our big dogs. Here's the same dog doing some gridwork:





By the way- is this dog on this forum? I can't remember how I found them other than perhaps just browsing "GSD Agility" on youtube. I'm curious if this is one of you... I've been subscribed for some time, but don't remember the genesis of it.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Interesting . . . Willy are you working from the Susan Salo DVD's? If so, there is a document on the DVDs called something like "Foundation Jumping Notes". Our club uses the drills found in that document for our agility classes. Each drill has a height/spacing guide for different sizes of dogs. We've always used those guides and consequently I don't know if we've ever even gone up to full height. Please keep in mind I'm not a pro and I have a ton more to learn, but my thinking is that the drills are a good way to teach your dog how to jump and where to take off. Then, they can take these skills along with some much needed momentum to the full height sequences. Just my humble opinion . . .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well, yes, I agree- I thought the jumps were _awfully_ high in that video. I am working from the DVDs and I do believe that Susan mentions that the set point exercise is one that you CAN take to full jump height. She also mentions though that jump height is the least most important aspect of the jump.

I'm glad you mentioned the document on the DVD. I really despise watching movies on my laptop (that's why I have a TV!) so I haven't loaded them on the computer yet. It sounds like I need to do so in order to checkout that doc. Sounds very helpful!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well, I found the articles on Disk 4 of Foundation Jumping, but didn't find a jump chart. I'll have to keep looking. The best I have so far is this:



> You can move the jump within the apparatus to allow for more
> or less room, depending on the size of the dog you are working
> with. The basic range for this can be 2' to 2.5' for the smallest of
> dogs, Norwich, Silky, and so on. I generally use approximately
> ...


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I might have renamed the file. The document I'm referring to starts with, "Introduction - Components of the 'Jump' Cue for the Dog". There are a few pages of notes with the first drill on page 6 of 25. Each drill has its own spacing chart.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok- finally got a chance to be outside and do some set point training. Following the advice from Susan Salo about setting the jumps at 16" with an 18" gap, I think Pimg is showing a lot of improvement. 

Guardyan- I did find the doc you were referring to, and it was helpful indeed!


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