# How to determine if the puppies are inbred?



## rosefox911 (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi,

I am looking into a breeder. 
Here is the mother: Shadow vom Haus Garech
Here is the father: Troy Von Dem Waldkonig

I had a question:

1. How do I determine if they are related?
2. Based on this information, how do I determine if the parents have any health issues? Thank you!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Litter from Troy Von Dem Waldkonig and Shadow vom Haus Garech 2nd and 3rd generation line breeding.
Chat with the breeder, of the planned litter and of the parents. Neither parents have earned any titles, maybe ask why? Many times health issues can be found out from the owners of siblings of the parents. Allergies, sensitive gut issues are chronic and good breeders would not breed dogs with such issues. Hip and elbows are the least of what this breed tends to have show up over the years.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Litter from Troy Von Dem Waldkonig and Shadow vom Haus Garech 

they are related through Lord v d Grauen Monstab

the breeder should be able to tell you why a combination was chosen - and it surely should go beyond "they look nice together"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

2-3 line breeding, is a little close, certainly not unheard of. Yes, worth asking why they picked sire and dam.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

The COI collectively is a lot higher than what I am comfortable with. Usually you want to keep it at or below the breed average, which for GSDs is 3.4. Honestly that is pretty frequently passed when linebreeding for specific traits, but even it's usually around the 4% mark on 5-5s.


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## rosefox911 (Aug 13, 2013)

Otakubenny said:


> The COI collectively is a lot higher than what I am comfortable with. Usually you want to keep it at or below the breed average, which for GSDs is 3.4. Honestly that is pretty frequently passed when linebreeding for specific traits, but even it's usually around the 4% mark on 5-5s.


What determines the inbreeding coefficient? Wright's or Hardiman's? Which should I keep below 3.4? Lastly, what does the 2-3 mean exactly? Thanks!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The price has dropped 300 dollars in a month. If you wait till August, maybe he'll pay you.
Akc German Sheperds Puppies in Miami, Florida - Hoobly Classifieds

German Sheperds dogs

I wouldn't worry as much about the pedigree or what the person would tell you about it, but I'd verify the health records and pay close attention to the temperaments of the two bred dogs.


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## rosefox911 (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> The price has dropped 300 dollars in a month. If you wait till August, maybe he'll pay you.
> Akc German Sheperds Puppies in Miami, Florida - Hoobly Classifieds
> 
> German Sheperds dogs
> ...


I'm primarily wondering for educational purposes. 


What determines the inbreeding coefficient? Wright's or Hardiman's? Which should I keep below 3.4? Lastly, what does the 2-3 mean exactly?


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

rosefox911 said:


> What determines the inbreeding coefficient? Wright's or Hardiman's? Which should I keep below 3.4? Lastly, what does the 2-3 mean exactly? Thanks!


Wright's and Hardiman are two different methods of calculating COI, you can read about the differences here.

3.4% is the breed average calculated in Hardiman's, and Hardiman's is the one people default to for the most part. Numbers like 2-3, 5-5, etc refer to linebreeding. The numbers are generations, the dash separates sire and dam. So 2-3 means the same dog appears in this pedigree 2 generations back through the sire's line and 3 generations back through the dam's line.


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## rosefox911 (Aug 13, 2013)

Otakubenny said:


> Wright's and Hardiman are two different methods of calculating COI, you can read about the differences here.
> 
> 3.4% is the breed average calculated in Hardiman's, and Hardiman's is the one people default to for the most part. Numbers like 2-3, 5-5, etc refer to linebreeding. The numbers are generations, the dash separates sire and dam. So 2-3 means the same dog appears in this pedigree 2 generations back through the sire's line and 3 generations back through the dam's line.


Thanks a ton for the info. So the further the linebreeding is, the better. 4-5 or 5-4 would be acceptable. What about if they have no linebreeding in 5 generations? I assume that is even better?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't reduce it to some mathematical equation.

it matters who and what and why the linebreeding is used


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

rosefox911 said:


> I'm primarily wondering for educational purposes.
> 
> 
> What determines the inbreeding coefficient? Wright's or Hardiman's? Which should I keep below 3.4? Lastly, what does the 2-3 mean exactly?


If you're looking for a puppy, whats going to be the most useful information to you is what the breeder can tell you about the dogs being bred and what comes from who in the pedigree. If I was to buy two dogs with a bunch of working titles in the pedigree and then leave them laying around my yard till they bred, the only thing I could tell you would be they're good at laying in the yard.

I never met any of the dogs or people involved in that pedigree and I don't have a clue why any of them were even bred. Hopefully the two dogs I bred have the important health checks and they have good temperaments because you're putting your trust in me and my rapidly lowered prices.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

rosefox911 said:


> Thanks a ton for the info. So the further the linebreeding is, the better. 4-5 or 5-4 would be acceptable. What about if they have no linebreeding in 5 generations? I assume that is even better?


Not necessarily. When breeders are looking to improve what they have to make it closer to the breed standard, they will often look to line breed on a dog that is correct in the trait they are trying to improve. For example, if you would like to improve your top line, and there is a well-known producer in the 4th generation, who is known to produce a correct top line, you might look for a mate to your dog that has a correct topline and that dog in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation. 

If you have a champion, and want to breed a champion, you are more likely to do so my linebreeding on dogs that you know what they produce, than outcrossing. Outcrossing is done to bring in a trait that your lines are weak on, but usually you would then want to line breed the pup out of the outcrossing and maybe out of that generation or the next, you will have the desired trait implanted, and will not have lost what you liked from your line. 

Line breeding isn't bad, but you have to know the dogs behind your dogs, not just how they look, but what they produce, and what health concerns they have produced.


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