# Extreme dog to dog aggression



## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Ok,so i have a 3 year old male GSD.Lovable pet,a total clown sometimes,generally good with people although a little wary of strangers .

The rest is nightmare...He is so dog agressive ,that he sees every single dog as a target no matter male or female.The only way to walk him without embarrasment is late at night when no dogs are around. He lunges and growls so much , that everyone gets scared.No matter how much i correct him through tags (with a prong collar),or food reward at the right time, nothing can stop him.He is primarily leash-reactive , but also displays this behaviour when in the car.
Now, i have been in obedience classes before , spent loads of money on trainers.Although there was some kind of improvement , the behaviour is still there and persists.When the trainer walked him he was the perfect dog ,not reactive.When i do it,the dog becomes a pitbull in a shepherd suit.
I am in total despair, i really want to walk my dog like i should , but it is nearly impossible with this problem.

I would apreciate any ideas.Sorry my english is not very good.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I would re-hire the trainer who walked him well. observe him, learn, then have him observe you. I'm not denying the dog has a problem but walking well with the trainer shows that the handler/relationship is a huge factor. he knows he can get away with it with you. suck huh? but it's part of the learning process and becoming a better trainer and handler.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The trainer may be exuding different vibes than you are. Are you nervous walking him? Are you keeping a tight lead? Are you afraid of dogs in general? 

I would definitely go back and work with the dog with the trainer that handled him well, as was suggested. Observe. Ask her to observe you.

Other things you might try:

Build your confidence, take a self-defense course. If you feel less confident your dog might be picking up on that, and if the dog senses you are feeling more confident, he may relax a bit.

Put a muzzle on the dog when you take him for walks. A big honking wire/leather muzzle. I think they call them Baskerville muzzles. The thing is, you don't want him to have any success at all with actual aggression with another dog, so he gets to put on his muzzle if he wants to go for a walk. If you feel very confident with him, then you can just carry it with, and the moment he starts to go into his routine, slap that muzzle on him, so that he knows that acting like a doofus means the muzzle goes on.

I think that Lou has had success with situations like this with an e-collar. I am not a fan of the devices, but if it makes your dog better, I say go for it. It is worth looking into. 

Good luck.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Agree with Sue. Only walk him in a muzzle. My GSD, Annie acted the same way on walks. She always wore a muzzle. Eventually, she was desensitized to the point she would ignore other dogs on walks. In general, I accepted that she wasn't a 'go everywhere' kind of dog. She loved people, especially children, and accepted everyone who came into our home. We had a large fenced backyard, where she could get plenty of exercise. She lived to be 14.5. I think she had a good life, despite her restrictions.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sometimes the difference in behavior happens because a dog perceives its owner as "weak" or "vulnerable" and in need of protection (this can happen because you're scared, and the dog knows it). He might be reacting to other dogs because he's afraid you need him to take charge and protect you. By contrast, the trainer's handling let the dog know "I've got this, so you can chill out, buddy." 

That's a silent conversation that you may not even know you're having with the dog, but I've seen it many, many times, and I've picked it up in myself in the past. I can't see your dog so I don't know if that's what's happening, but your trainer will be able to watch and tell you. The "everyone gets scared" part of your post makes me wonder if this might be what's going on. Dogs are amazingly perceptive readers of human emotions, and it all travels down the leash.

Ask your trainer to honestly give you the truth, as bluntly and honestly as he or she can --- they sometimes are afraid to say "you, human, are the cause" because people get mad. Be willing to set aside your pride and have that conversation -- a lot of good sometimes comes of it.

Again, I can only guess about this based on your words. It might be something different, but I agree with others that your trainer should be able to help you diagnose it by watching you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

First you need to find out if it's aggressiveness or reactivity out of frustration. Because he does find with the trainer I'm thinking reactivity. I had a dog like this, it was quite embarrassing. Once I felt comfortable and knew that no matter what he did I had control of him, my confidence increased. Once my confidence increased his reactivity decreased to none. Unlike you my trainers did tell me I was the problem. I changed what I was doing and the results were amazing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I like prong collars but if you are correcting him with it when he is ramped up I strongly believe it will make it worse not better. 

Agree that first you need to get at the root of the aggression. There is a lot you can do to manage the dog though likely he will never be the life of the party.

"When the trainer walked him he was the perfect dog ,not reactive.When i do it,the dog becomes a pitbull in a shepherd suit.". 

Can you get THAT trainer again-the one who had no issues with him? That person may know exactly what is going on. Often we send cues such as tightening on the lead etc. that send signals to the dog to be aggressive. If there is any fear basis for this aggression, being loose and confident is essential. (Agree 100% with the muzzle though - a good muzzle the dog can pant through like the Jafco)


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Thank you all for the great information and answers.

Yes the trainer clearly told me that i am the cause of the dogs problem,because he thinks that i am very scared that my dog may harm someone.of course he also told me that my dog has some kind of genetic tendency to aggression but not at this intensity.i followed his orders and the dog is great inside the class,but not when i walk him around.Problem is i have the EXACT same behaviour (or i think so) but the results are different.

He is more prone to reactivity when the other dog is also on leash.He just seems to go red hot when he sees another animal but not humans.

I know i may be the problem but i dont know how to fix it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Pierre said:


> Thank you all for the great information and answers.
> 
> Yes the trainer clearly told me that i am the cause of the dogs problem,because he thinks that i am very scared that my dog may harm someone.of course he also told me that my dog has some kind of genetic tendency to aggression but not at this intensity.i followed his orders and the dog is great inside the class,but not when i walk him around.Problem is i have the EXACT same behaviour (or i think so) but the results are different.
> 
> ...


You use a prong? If so, is it the smaller links? Is there a back up collar? See you are worried what others think and you are afraid you will lose control and he will get away. You probably tense up before he even sees a dog, you might even take a deep breath like here we go--he senses all of this. I originally used the bigger links on the prong, that did not work, I got the smaller links(worked wonders) and add a choke collar that is about two inches bigger then the dogs neck--connect the two. Now you have double collars for extra security. Next you have to work on focus. You are more important then any dog.


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Sorry , bad english again  i use a choke not a prong collar.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... you're in the process of doing what you need to do to solve this right now, *"Out Think Your Dog."* So next you need to take a deep breath and relax! 

In an uncharacteristic bit of restraint for me, I'll refrain from casting "aspersions" at the behaviourist. 

The trainer, however, I will explain, in as much as I can do the same thing. His "secret" is that when "he" takes control of a dog he "expects" the dog to behave! And if it does not, he knows how to deal with it effectively! It's pretty much that simple, in my view. 

So he's clearly great with dogs but "people" not so much?? I say that because if he could transfer what he knows and does, to you, ...then by default ...you would not be here!

I'm gonna guess here but most likely he has you doing something like this, see the second clip here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

If it is, and it's not working for you ... let's try something different. 

We're going to fake it! Muzzle has already been mentioned I used one myself for awhile no biggie. What I did not know at the time ... was that the muzzle helps the dog to relax! If the dog is muzzled, he understands that it is not in his best interest to act a fool!

You will know, your dog can't hurt another so you relax! The goal is to get your dog to "ignore" other dogs! Keep your goals simple and they are easier to achieve.

Moving on ... delivering "proper" correction is most likely also a problem?? You're not alone and a solution is at hand, The Pet convincer, see the last two links here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7400865-post6.html

Arm yourself with those tools and the sec you see your dog "start to act a fool" let him have it and say "move along dog nothing to see here" if that. 

And ... add this to the training regimen.:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


And as often say ... be like Jeff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

Good luck and ask questions, and welcome aboard.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Pierre said:


> Sorry , bad english again  i use a choke not a prong collar.


Well this can be a game changer for you if you are open to using a prong(along with the choker. Are you open to that?


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Well this can be a game changer for you if you are open to using a prong(along with the choker. Are you open to that?


I am open to everything that could help and is relatively harmless,although i dont know how to use a prong.Is it more effective than a choker?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Pierre said:


> I am open to everything that could help and is relatively harmless,although i dont know how to use a prong.Is it more effective than a choker?


Most would say yes. Can you ask the trainer if they can help you fit it properly. The better ones can be found on leerburg website.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Are you in Europe? (France, I'm guessing based on your name?) If so, then you should have no problem finding the HS Sprenger brand of prong collars, made in Germany:
Eine Vielfalt an Dressurhalsketten für Ihren Hund von HS Sprenger

It's very important that you have someone show you how to use it correctly. It takes a much lighter hand to correct than a choke chain. You really do have to change the technique if you are used to yanking on a choke-chain.


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Magwart said:


> Are you in Europe? (France, I'm guessing based on your name?) If so, then you should have no problem finding the HS Sprenger brand of prong collars, made in Germany:
> Eine Vielfalt an Dressurhalsketten für Ihren Hund von HS Sprenger
> 
> It's very important that you have someone show you how to use it correctly. It takes a much lighter hand to correct than a choke chain. You really do have to change the technique if you are used to yanking on a choke-chain.


Yes i am in Europe , i suppose i can find these collars.I forgot to mention that i also have a tiny dog who is a heavy barker as most small dogs tend to be.They grew up together and the shepherd really loves the small dog.Could this be a part of the shepherd's tendency to react? They always go for a walk seperately.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Pierre said:


> Yes i am in Europe , i suppose i can find these collars.I forgot to mention that i also have a tiny dog who is a heavy barker as most small dogs tend to be.They grew up together and the shepherd really loves the small dog.Could this be a part of the shepherd's tendency to react? They always go for a walk seperately.


Dogs can tend to learn bad behaviors from each other. If the GSD is reacting out of frustration it doesn't mean he wants to kill the other dog. My best guess and this is only a guess is that the GSD would meet other dogs right in their face which can cause a reaction from other dogs then in turn causes a reaction with yours. 

Go back to the trainer, get a prong, have them show you how to fit it and use it, work on manners, focus and obedience.


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Short update: I have started a stricter approach with my dog,not letting him misbehave inside and outside the house.I persist until Hugo does what i want (in a non violent way of course,except a light tap in the nose which seems to work) . I put him on sit/stay outside yards which have dogs inside.He whines a lot but he doesnt lunge like before. But when we see a dog outside nothing can stop him.

The trainer suggested guard dog training as a great way to anger management, and energy burning,while being strong in obedience.

Is there any light in the end of the tunnel?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Choke collar is a bad idea. I'd use a flat collar instead and I would work the dog under threshold, rewarding and gradually moving past this issue. Check out some of Pat Miller's articles in Whole Dog Journal about dog agressive dogs and working under threshold.
BTE2 wanted to eat cars as a youngster. We started walking at low traffic volume times when the handler could see a car coming. We would move away from the road a bit (like down a side street a few feet or into a driveway), have the pup sit and focus on me and reward with high value treats. In a few weeks she could walk and totally ignor traffic, including fire trucks with sirens full blast.

That was a product of working under threshold and building tolerance.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pierre said:


> Short update: I have started a stricter approach with my dog,not letting him misbehave inside and outside the house.I persist until Hugo does what i want (in a non violent way of course,except a light tap in the nose which seems to work) . I put him on sit/stay outside yards which have dogs inside.He whines a lot but he doesnt lunge like before. But when we see a dog outside nothing can stop him.
> 
> The trainer suggested guard dog training as a great way to anger management, and energy burning,while being strong in obedience.
> 
> Is there any light in the end of the tunnel?


Guard dog training??? Yeah ... moving on.

If you want to know how to use a "Prong Collar" you can find out on the sites I sourced for you.

Additionally, a "Prong Collar" can take "drive out of a dog" and it can also put "drive into a dog." The trainers I cited saw people struggling with that also and so they started recommending the "Pet Convincer":

Last two links here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7400865-post6.html


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## Pierre (Jan 4, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Guard dog training??? Yeah ... moving on.
> 
> If you want to know how to use a "Prong Collar" you can find out on the sites I sourced for you.
> 
> ...


So you think guard dog training a bad idea? 

The trainer told me that this kind of training done properly make dogs far more obedient and calm.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm I just posted this have a look:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7558265-post2.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pierre said:


> So you think guard dog training a bad idea?
> 
> The trainer told me that this kind of training done properly make dogs far more obedient and calm.


I think you would do much better with info from the links in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

save for Lou these guys do only "family pets" but a badly behaved dog is a badly behaved dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok ... switching to "Boxer" mode here. 

So you have used a trainer "apparently" that has worked with this dog and "this" is the results you get?? If he was that good ... you would not be here looking for help I would think??

So I'm not impressed by him myself, but hey that's me. The guard dog thing, cultural barrier maybe?? Does that mean a Personal Protection Dog or some backwoods "Chained up junkyard dog??" Two very different things! A "PPD" has an extremely high level of obedience! But if this is the same guy that helped you already ... good luck with that.  

Now you seem to be "fixated" on the "Prong Collar" no problem, if you want to understand how to use one properly, you now have all the information available to help you do just that! Review the information on Sean and Jeff's site and heck I'll add one more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

And if your still unsure find a competent trainer to help you over the last bit of getting it down properly.

I've used a Jump Rope, fashioned into a Slip Lead Leash myself so I'm good. 

But while you are doing that (learning how to use a Prong) ... you won't be training your dog. You will need to first understand how to properly use "any" tool and then "train your dog." 

Hence The "Pet Convincer" frankly I thought it was crap myself but the guys that have trained, thousands of dogs. Started to recommend it to their clients that were *"struggling to use a Prong Collar properly." *If it was good enough for them to recommend ...so it was good enough for me to do the same. Still people crap and whine about it all the time (PC) "BoxerForum" and those same people are struggling with their dogs.

But I will persist, I will also tell you that first you can ask "Jeff questions yourself on his facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/

and he does do "Skype Sessions" and they are about $400 dollars US. I don't do Skype sessions and I flatter myself but I'm pretty sure a lot of things I've said ... you would hear from him! (Add the Place Command and Sit on the Dog" he does Sit on the Dog but calls it something else.)

Actually, when I first heard him I was "stunned" I was like ... hey, that's what I say!

So ... everything you need to know you already have access to! You just have to get out of this mode:
The Substitute Teacher Syndrome – Solid K9 Training

and you can take care of business and that does not take force it just take "Knowlege and a Plan."


As always ask questions.

So that said ... "Boxer mode" off!


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