# Dog Aggression, am I doing the right thing?



## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Hi all,

I want your help. I usually know what the problem is when it comes to behaviors, and I guess I just want your opinion on how I am going about fixing the problem.

When Apollo was little, he was very sick. It's not an excuse, it's the reason he wasn't socialized with dogs. He loves people, especially kids. 

Apollo really didn't start showing aggression to other dogs until he started getting better, and older. We got Zeus as a replacement pup, and he is the only dog that Apollo likes. (Well, he loves his brother, but you know what I mean) 

Anyhow. Apollo is going to be 11 months on the 17th. Basically what he does is if he sees another dog, he barks, and lunges trying to get at the dog. I have actually seen some improvement in him since we completed basic Obedience classes. But not much. 

He has never bit another dog, and I intend on keeping it that way, even if that means that he never gets to compete or never gets to be around other dogs. 

Here is how I plan on fixing this behavior: 

1. Socializing him with a stable dog. I plan on muzzling Apollo, and bring him and his brother over to a neighbor's house to socialize them with her dog. Zeus isn't dog or people aggressive. He loves people and animals.

2. I plan on taking Apollo to the dog park. We aren't actually going in to the dog park, but there is a fencing where I can bring up to the fence and correct any barking at the other dogs.

What do you guys think? Is any of this wrong? What would you do? I had wanted to compete with Apollo in Obedience or Agility, but if I can't fix this, then I won't be able to.


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

Hello GSDOwner, From what I see you are in the same boat as I am. My GS Major, is the same as your Apollo. Careful if you bring him to a park. Major would go there everyday when he was 3 months old till 6months. He was dragged, bitten, and got put down on his back numerous times. It stayed in his head all of that. My biggest mistake is taken him to a park thinking it would be good to socialize. A few vets and trainers told me the same thing, my dog remembers what was done to him and today he is revenging himself. I powerwalk with Major, and I do walk around the park and he is outside the park but his hair goes up and ready to go through the fence if I would hold him back. He is getting too big now even for me. He's 100lbs and hes a year old only. He listens extremely well and does whatever I tell him. BUT if he sees another dog, its like he gone into another world. Its really wreid. I will be getting a muzzle too for Major. 

So basically I dont really know what you want to do is the right thing. Its funny, tonight I was looking at Cesar and this lady had 3 GSD and one of them DAX was just like ours towards the other GS Pete. He went to see the dogs and even brought them at his dog pack in LA. Dax had a muzzle on. He roller blade with the 3 dogs and they were all under control. But you know what, from what I saw only in 15mins on the GS Dax I still didnt feel the owner would leave all 3 on their own. The GS of hers was not to be trusted with others. Cesar said it but in a different way. 

I was also talking to the person that sold me Major. He's trains his GS for S/R, Police dogs, drugs, tracking etc. and he said the same thing. His male (Major's dad) is like that too. He always got to keep an eye out for him not to be with other stud males cause he's not neutered. But even if he was neutered it will not solve the problem. So basically he said just keep up the training and not to leave him with other dogs. 

Sorry I cant help more. Like i said I am in the same boat as you. Oh and Major has an appointment next month to get neutered. Might bring him down a few notches. 

Good luck and yes I would be also interested what others have to say.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Gorgeous Apollo who always looks so happy with his brother??? OK... I would skip the dog park idea, that might give him barrier aggression towards the dogs inside having fun. Not sure about the muzzle, I've never done that.

Work on reading his body language when he sees another dog (with Morgan it was squirrels, that took forever to get under control). When another dog comes along on a walk, be preemptive and tell him how to behave before he does anything. Tell him to leave it, don't tense up and make a big deal, just 'leave it' and try to keep your attitude light like 'Hey Apollo, it's just another dog, he's not going to bother you'. Which is hard with a dog going crazy! 

Does he have a prong collar so you can give him a solid correction if he acts up after you told him not to?


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## TheGermanShedder (Nov 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008
> Here is how I plan on fixing this behavior:
> 
> 1. Socializing him with a stable dog. I plan on muzzling Apollo, and bring him and his brother over to a neighbor's house to socialize them with her dog. Zeus isn't dog or people aggressive. He loves people and animals.
> ...


I suggest working with someone that can see Apollo's behavior and give you one on one help. 

However, I believe this is moving too fast. A better idea would to have Apollo on leash with you. Have another dog approach to where Apollo first sees the dog, not any closer. The distance should be so that Apollo is not barking. At the moment he sees the other dog start giving him very high value treats. When the dog walks out of his view, stop giving the treats. Repeat. It may take more than one session for him to become comfortable. 

Doing this will help him learn that another dog in his view means he gets treats along with getting him to focus on you. As he starts to remain calm and look to you at this distance, decrease the distance between him and the other dog. 

There is more involved with working with dog aggression than stated here, and that is where the help of someone in person is needed.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I foster for rescue dogs, and ended up with a female named Zoie about five weeks ago. Zoie is about eighteen months old. The first foster said Zoie was out of control on leash and nipped at her kids, so she had Zoie for one night.

The dog was returned to my rescue group and putting her down was considered. Howver, we have a good trainer that takes are so-called aggressive dogs. 

Subsequently, I got Zoie from the trainer and had a tough time controlling her on walks, very similar to what you mentioned. So, without charge, the trainer had me bring the dog to a class. He used a thin pronged collar, and a light lease. Within the hour Zoie's attitude changed from aggression toward the other of the 12 dogs in our class to obedience. A tough correction and lots of yelps from Zoie. The episode seemed almost brutal, but this dog who was almost put to death, has been saved and lost none of her spirit.

Bottom line, when a shepherd causes concerns be tough with the dog.

Of course there are exceptions, I have an abused dog I adopted, and would never put her through that type of training.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I would love to work with a behaviorist, but most of the professionals in my area trainers, and don't really do behaviors. I will keep contacting trainers and see what I can find, but for now, no luck.

Apollo is always walked with a prong collar. I usually have a squirt bottle filled with vinegar, so if he barks, he will stop. (Vinegar or water, he doesn't like either of them). Apollo is also a very soft dog, if I give him a harsh correction, he will look at you like you've betrayed him.

Even when I do give him a solid correction, he acts as if it never happened.

I am going to try some of these ideas. I love my boy, he's my heart dog, but I need to fix this.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Can you continue with the dog classes because they seem to have helped. Classes are about much more than just the perfect sit or whatever they teach.

They are more about giving us the handler skills we need, and the leadership role the dog's need from us, in a safe environment with a good instructor for the instant feedback and help most of us need.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I am currently looking into trainers and seeing what I can find. I was just going to get classes for Zeus while I work on Apollo, but Apollo has an issue that needs to be corrected, so I am going to see if I can find anyone who can help.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Constant classes really helps Renji. The dog park isn't a great place to practice even if you are on the other side of the fence because it's still a very crazy place. Please do try classes. IIRC you don't live near central FL but if you ever have a chance, come on up to St Cloud to see if you can have a private and maybe a group session with my trainer. I don't know if she prefers to call herself a behaviorist or a trainer but she's done wonders with my boy. Renji does the same thing that Apollo does and I've found that he's just really excited to go and check out the other dog. He's quite rude in "Doginese." However, if a dog decides to challenge him, that's the end of that. So we do have to be careful. He did LOVE playing with an aussie/'houla mix female and actually ended up letting her run the show because she didn't force herself on him but she also didn't let him get away with squat and knew exactly when to relieve pressure. 

If you want to compete in OB and agility, I would continue on with the classes as much as possible. You may have to constantly be in them. I can't remember but if he is neutered, that might help. It will at least not set off more nasties in other dogs. Another thing that helps is when you're going to encounter other dogs, have the best treats ever on you. I discovered that Renji will willingly turn away from another dog for a squirt of Sqeez Cheez in the can without any leash prompting. That's a big thing. Also, the more corrections you make in response to the presence of other dogs, the worse your dog's view will become. However, if you're doling out the goodies around other dogs, his outlook will improve. "Oh man, here comes another dog, I'm going to get pronged again. Dangit, go away, Dog," versus, "Oooh look, another dog is coming, I'd like to check him out but wow, Mom's got my favorite GOODIES!" We fell into the trap of correcting whenever he paid too much attention to dogs, now we have to stop leash pops as much as possible and concentrate on focus and dishing out goodies. This also keeps him calmer and more apt to focus on me and less likely to overreact, which incidentally the prong contributes to his reactivity.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I never thought that leash corrections could actually be worsening the problem. I will see what I can dog reguarding the classes, I have been in contact with several people, and I am waiting on responses.

I am also trying to get people who I know with dogs to help me out as simply by walking up the street past us, being on the opposite side from us. Like oncoming traffic. We tried this in a class once, and I think it could be pretty helpful.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Yup, prong corrections with my dog do nothing but add fuel to the fire. He ends up in a rut of lunging bursts- calm one instant, hit the end of the leash the next, then calm, then lunge, then calm, then lunge, and his anxiety goes up. With the Gentle Leader, it does seem to calm him down more so when he does lunge, he fights a little, and then settles quicker, plus the behavior does not escalate.



> Quote:I am also trying to get people who I know with dogs to help me out as simply by walking up the street past us, being on the opposite side from us. Like oncoming traffic. We tried this in a class once, and I think it could be pretty helpful.


This is VERY helpful and a good thing to practice since similar activities occur in the CGC. Plus, it is more "real world" than just sitting by each other in class.


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

> Quote:
> 
> I suggest working with someone that can see Apollo's behavior and give you one on one help.
> 
> ...


This is how my trainer is working with us. Pepsi does the same thing you describe, but towards certain people, not usually dogs. We've only done two sessions so far, but we really enjoy it.

I've also read about this method being used with other dogs, as described above, in the Whole Dog Journal. They spoke very highly of it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would recommend reading the book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. It is very helpful in dealing with reactive dogs. I was lucky enough to go to a CU class for 8 weeks, and it did help. What Jenn said is important: _Read your dogs body language and_ _redirect when you see the reactivity start_. Maybe your local training club has the CU class. The training center I go to, very few people even know what it is, unless they are familiar with the book. Good luck with Apollo.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I know I encouraged my own dog's leash aggression by making leash corrections when he would react to other dogs by lunging or staring at them. 
I wasn't at all sure that simply by working on Tanner's obedience skills would help the problem, either. But I was wrong about that as well. By working on Tanner's obedience skills, I was giving him something else to concentrate on when he was around strange dogs. It has really helped my boy relax at least a little bit.
I agree with those that have expressed doubts about using a dog park to work on this issue. Even if you have total control over your dog, you have zero control over the other dogs. You might be on the opposite side of the fence, but what is your dog going to learn from being exposed to a dog that might have issues of their own with barrier frustration? Training needs to always be fair for the dog, and putting a reactive dog in that situation just doesn't sound fair to me.
You might need to start off with private lessons, and work your way up to training in the same general area as other dogs that are also training.
Anyway, that is my advice. I was happily surprised at how much success Tanner and I have enjoyed over the past 7 months. You can do it!
Good luck,
Sheilah


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I am surprised that strong, tough lease corrections have not worked. With my oldest GSD, the breeder told me to literally lift the dog off its feet when applying the correction. 

I almost gave up on one of my rescues; but fortunately our group has a trainer and I got tons of advice from this board, other dog people and my breeder.

The trainer's advice was bring her to my class, no charge. It has worked well, but I will add again he was rougher on this dog then I could have imagined.

I almost pulled the dog from the class, because I felt sorry for the animal. But the good news is her behavior is about 80 percent better, ad hopefullly instead of being out to death we will be posting her for adoption.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks for all of the advice, I will definately look into that book, thanks for that suggestion.

So far, the redirecting has worked a little bit, along with body blocking. Apollo is very reactive towards our cats because of the same thing, lack of socialization. I had treats, and when he looked at the cat, I stepped infront of him and gave the command to focus. It worked. Now, if I could only apply this to dogs. I am trying to arrange things, I will update when something happens.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

Another good book is "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell. Our Heidi has some reactivity issues as well. We took her to a "Grumpy Pup" class about six months after we got her and she's currently attending a "Reactive Rover" class as a refresher after she kind of regressed during an agility class we were taking with her. You might want to check around and see if you have any classes like this in your area.

Both classes used similar techniques of using food and various other techniques to get the dog's attention away from the other dog and on you and/or the food. Heidi has done really well with this. When we're walking by other dogs, we just say "Yes" and she'll look up at us for a treat. The objective is to have the dog associate the word (whatever word works for you) with a treat and to look up at you instead of looking at the dog. 

In the class we're currently in, they also use "watch me," body blocking, "Find It" (dropping treats on the ground in front of your dog), and turning around and moving away from the other dog if necessary.

The trainer noticed that Heidi has an "intense stare," which is probably one of the reasons a lot of dogs react badly towards her, which then makes her go off. That's why it's so important that we get her to look at us instead of the other dog. We also found out that she can go nose to nose with another dog while on leash, but it has to be fast (2 seconds according to the trainer and possibly 1 second for Heidi because of her "hard stare").

It's a tough thing to have a dog like this when you want to be able to take them everywhere and you want to be able to do special training with them (Heidi was so good at agility and loved it, but I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to go further than the back yard).

Best of luck to you and Apollo!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks for the advice! I have been working on Apollo's focus, and I will continue to work on his focus until it's rock solid. Right now anything will break his focus, so I am training him without distractions, or if there are distractions, I use body blocking as well.

Has anyone had great progress with clicker training, or using squeaky toys instead of food?


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Scratch that last question, because I just watched an episode of It's Me or the Dog, Jilly Johnson's Great Danes, which describes Apollo to the T. 

Do you think that a gentle leader would work better for how she prescribed to handle the problem? I intend to muzzle at first just like she did to take precaution, and then if he acts like he wants to behave, then I will take it off. I think this was a great way to do it, and I wish I had seen this sooner!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Sorry, but I don't think a muzzle is necessary. Tough corrections are. 

As for the TV shows, be it the lady from the UK or Ceasar, they can be helpful, and as someone else suggested thre are many good books. Unfortunately I have read to many, because they tend to contradict each other.

If you can find a good trainer, my hunch is an hour, even in a class with other dogs, will do more then any thing you have seen on TV.

The tough part is finding the right trainer for your dog.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Apollo was in classes, and was showing mild improvement until we had a run in with a small dog that challenged us. Since then, I haven't seen any improvement. 

I know I am the one asking help, but tough corrections on this dog will either make him shut down, or make him worse. That is not the route I want to go.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Sorry, but I don't think a muzzle is necessary. Tough corrections are.


My dog has had those tough corrections as you describe them. They're enough to dissuade him at the moment, but that's about all. It's not all about corrections and just saying "give a good correction" is ignoring so much more. Sure you can jerk a dog into submission but some dogs are too stubborn for that and others would fall apart with that treatment. This is where proper training comes into play. 



> Quote:If you can find a good trainer, my hunch is an hour, even in a class with other dogs, will do more then any thing you have seen on TV.


Yeeeeeup! And in my experience, positive experiences that outweigh meaningful negative ones works best. She doesn't need a dog that's had its spirit broken from so many corrections, she needs a dog that's motivated to focus on HER, one that's learned that other dogs aren't a concern unless Mom makes it a concern, she's more fun anyway, besides the fact that disobeying can be quite undesirable.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008Has anyone had great progress with clicker training, or using squeaky toys instead of food?


We've had great progress with clicker training with Heidi. She really responds to it and she is much more quicker to obey when we use it. It's almost like it's a game with her when we bring it out. Plus, I think she likes the fact that it tells her exactly when she's doing something right and she gets really happy and proud. We haven't tried it in conjunction with the dog reactivity issue but it might be interesting to give it a try.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You've gotten lots of great advice and I agree with everything but the "tough corrections" and prong collar. Using harsh corrections are VERY dangerous and can cause *major fear aggression*. I would RUN from a trainer using such methods and would NEVER allow anyone to do anything to my dog or foster dog (and especially foster dog since that dog could come unhinged later) that I wasn't comfortable with. 

I've been training gsds for 20 years and some have been rescues with major issues including dog and/or leash reactivity. I like all of the books mentioned. "Feisty Fido" is short and gives you step by step instructions on how to counter-condition this behavior. I also add a positive command like, "Is that another dog?" and then "Watch Me" so that I can use the cue to direct the dog's attention. 

Clicker training is a wonderful way to mark desirable behaviors and many folks have had major success using clicker training with reactive dogs. There is a really wonderful book called, "Click to Calm" that deals with clicker training and working with dog aggressive dogs. In there she talks about how a trainer set her dog back unbelievably far by using harsh corrections. 

Gentle leaders have worked for some of my dogs but not as well for others. My preference is the Sense-ation harness because you have better control of their body when necessary. 

I would absolutely not do the dog park thing for a long, long time. That would be flooding and could set him back, especially if other dogs react to him through the fence. You want to take this very, very slowly and proof the focus and clicker training without distractions first. Then very gradually add distractions and lessen the distance between him and other dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The October issue of Whole Dog Journal has a great article on reactive dogs. Many of the above posts were right on, exept the tough corrections advice, never once was there anytime a dog should be corrected or told NO when their dog is reacting as they feel the correction comes from the other dog or person. "Fiesty Fido" by Karen Pryor was a recommended book in this article, and clicker training used for foundation training.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks for all of the good information. I am just trying to soak up everything I can that will be good for this dog. 

I agree about not doing the tough corrections, when Apollo reacts, a tough correction will just make it worse, or sometimes if he has started lunging, but hasn't really gotten "nasty" yet with all of the barking, a tough correction will make him shut down. He's a soft dog. I can't afford to lose that bond with Apollo.

I'm definately going to look into all of this, the books, and the clicker.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KarinWe haven't tried it in conjunction with the dog reactivity issue but it might be interesting to give it a try.


Duh!







I have the book, "Click to Calm" and have skimmed through it. What I've read is really good. I think I need to start putting it into use though since Heidi likes the clicker training so much. I have so many dog books, but haven't spent the time I should to read them thoroughly and put them into practice. This thread has inspired me to go back and put some effort into working on the click-to-calm method with Heidi!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I do not disagree completely. However, you used terms like so many corrections which is entirely inaccurate based on my reply. In reality the few corrections we used have worked well, and as I said the dog managed to come around with just a few short, but tough corrections. Remember, this was a dog that our first foster turned back after one day, described as violent, aggressive and impossible to walk. LOL has that changed, and hopefully she will find a permanent home shortly. 

I also mentioned that I have another Shepherd that I would not subject to tough training. So with her we go from day to day training gently. She has been abused, is gentle and fearful, but has never as much as even growled at another human. So with Paris Hilton, honest that is her name, the training is quite different.

As for my other two, the tough approach has helped. I am sorry you haven't had much luck with your dog.

Like I was for so long with Timber, I think the OP tends to treat the dog more like a human, then a pet.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I do not disagree completely. However, you used terms like so many corrections which is entirely inaccurate based on my reply. In reality the few corrections we used have worked well, and as I said the dog managed to come around with just a few short, but tough corrections. Remember, this was a dog that our first foster turned back after one day, described as violent, aggressive and impossible to walk. LOL has that changed, and hopefully she will find a permanent home shortly.
> 
> I also mentioned that I have another Shepherd that I would not subject to tough training. So with her we go from day to day training gently. She has been abused, is gentle and fearful, but has never as much as even growled at another human. So with Paris Hilton, honest that is her name, the training is quite different.
> 
> ...


Please don't make assumptions. While I love my boys dearly, I don't treat them like humans. I practice NILIF and a pack mentality, and I study dog behaviors. I have tried to fix this on my own and I can't, so I came here for help. I don't believe I said anything here that can make anyone think I treat them like humans, because that is not factual. All I have said here is that I am worried for my boy because he is headed down a dangerous path, and I had wanted to compete with him. If you can't post informative information, then please let others do that.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The OP definitely treats her dogs as dogs, not as humans. No concerns there!

The thing is, we all have to know our dogs well in order to train them. We can easily be guilty of giving too little correction just as we can be guilty of giving too much correction. This really varies with the dog and the context of the situation. In the same situation, one dog could do well with a verbal correction and another dog will probably not stop unless it's blasted off with an e-collar. If you reversed the corrections for the dogs, you can bet the first dog would probably run to Timbuktu and the second dog will suddenly have gone deaf. We don't want to play it too safe and end up nagging the dog but we don't want to overdo it either. 

I also think there is a big difference in correcting a dog that is reactive on leash as soon as it sees another dog versus a dog that sees another dog, is near that dog and doesn't really care and remains calm, but then suddenly decides to issue a stare challenge and perhaps escalate. The first scenario requires a whole different set of rules than the second. For the challenge situation, I totally agree that a correction that rocks the dog's world would be in order if it has been properly trained to focus and ignore other dogs as non-issues. In the first situation, such a correction may well lead the dog to ignore other dogs but it also creates the possibility that the dog will see other dogs as a major source of pain and fright. It may try to ignore other dogs as much as possible but if another dog gets too close, it could react with fear aggression in the hopes of driving away the potential threat; all this just to avoid a huge leash correction. 

Apollo isn't even a year yet. More than likely, this dog is insecure and unsure of the world and just not quite able to handle other dogs. Are they threats? Should I scare them off? Hmm my owner gets worried when other dogs come around, maybe they are bad? I just don't know! He needs to learn that not just in this situation but in the grand scheme of things, other dogs are not his concern as Mom will deal with all the decision making, besides she has yummy treats and fun toys and the dogs don't. Classes will help with this as Apollo will learn how to function around other dogs and ignore them. Then the opportunity will come for him to get leash corrections- say the class is doing heel work and Apollo decides to lunge at the border collie coming by- POP! Sorry App, it's not because of the other dog, it's because you willfully broke a command you knew very well. Now later on, the two dogs can sit by each other and Apollo can be fed yummy treats. Oh, that dog's not bad at all, I really did get corrected because I blew off Mom.

Do try a Gentle Leader. It does help a LOT (never thought I'd say that). Also, be creative with treats. The best ammo I have found yet that breaks Renji off very high distractions is a can of that shelf junk Squeez Cheez (Easy Cheese, I think). We don't want middle-of-the-road rewards, we want TOP SHELF when we're teaching very difficult things. So far, it's been a few days where I am just using the buckle and it's unbelievable what I can call his attention off from. You need to find a treat like that whether it's cheez in a can, fancy cheese, deli meats, liverwurst, fried fish, pizza, obviously nothing that is harmful but stuff that you will give sparingly, only for very tough situations, but stuff that your dog will blow off the world for.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Very good post. 

Apollo and Zeus are both intact males, and lately I have thought of neutering them both. I'm very crushed when I think about this because I want to compete with them, and I know you can get a ILP/PAL number from the AKC to do this, I just don't know if I will be able to. I have never had to neuter any of my boys, and another thing I am concerned about are the statistics.

I don't want Apollo or Zeus to be neutered early on to reduce a behavioral problem that could be fixed, given the time and effort, just to heighten the chances that they will get bone or prostate cancer. I also don't want them to become overgrown, or lanky because it was done early.

Is there a point where I should start to consider neutering?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

If they're AKC registered now, you're set, you don't need an ILP/PAL. That's just for dogs with no pedigree and unknown history. The only thing you cannot compete in would be conformation.

For Apollo, start thinking now because around two years of age it won't do much of anything except stop his production of Mini-Apollos. For Zeus, you still have some time.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Your dogs are going through mental as well as physical growing stages, and all you have to do is try to manage them. A friend who has a briard-her breeder told her the age of 1 to 1 1/2 is a stage where intact males don't get the calcium to the brain and go thru these "flakey" stages. Aggression triggered by nothing, going off for no reason. I haven't heard this about the calcium, but it may be true. Her dog chased after me and pounced on me(my back was to him) while growling, and he knows me. I think he was testing his testosterone!! I wouldn't necessarily snip them....just try to manage the behaviour and let them know what is not acceptible.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I didn't know about that, that raises an interesting point. I really don't want to have to neuter them (unwanted litters aren't an issue, the boys are never out of my sight) I was just considering it because if I can't fix it I wanted to do all I can, y'know?

You're right, the 1 year to 1 1/2 is a flakey stage, and I will do all of the reading, and try to get in back in classes. We already have a dog with an owner who is willing to help us out, and hopefully another one too.

Right now my two goofballs are sleeping on the floor, you'd never know Apollo had issues with other dogs if you just saw him around Zeus.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote: A tough correction and lots of yelps from Zoie. The episode seemed almost brutal, but this dog who was almost put to death, has been saved and lost none of her spirit.
> 
> Bottom line, when a shepherd causes concerns be tough with the dog.





> Quote: With my oldest GSD, the breeder told me to literally lift the dog off its feet when applying the correction.





> Quote: Sorry, but I don't think a muzzle is necessary. Tough corrections are.


Sorry but I cannot disagree more. Yes, it may have fixed the problem but I prefer NOT to use excessive physical force when working on a dog aggressive dog. And I have first hand experience that I learned from.

Years ago, a rescue group I worked with adopted out a dog that they didn’t realize was seriously dog aggressive. The couple that adopted the dog wanted to be able to take him for walks in the park by their house but he almost pulled them off their feet trying to get at other dogs.

Back then I was as ‘Pain’ trainer. I went to help the couple. I put a prong collar on the dog and we went to the park. When he saw another dog and started going off I started correcting him … hard. Not only did it INCREASE his dog aggression (from the dogs point of view – when I see another dog I experience pain – I hate that dog even more) but after a couple corrections the dog turned and nailed me in the leg.

That experience made me sit down and think about what I was doing.

Think of it this way – you want to teach a child not to go near the street. You can wait until the child approaches the street then slap them until they back away OR you can make being away from the street much more fun than being near the street.

Same thing is accomplished but using the second method the child actually ENJOYS the training – not fears it.

The way I deal with dog aggressive dog takes longer but the dog learns for themselves that NOT barking or acting stupid is better than barking and acting stupid.

I don’t expect a dog aggressive dog to learn to love other dogs. I expect them to learn to control their emotions around other dogs, to be able to walk past another dog without trying to attack it and to be more interested in ME than the other dog.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> > Quote: A tough correction and lots of yelps from Zoie. The episode seemed almost brutal, but this dog who was almost put to death, has been saved and lost none of her spirit.
> ...


This is what I want to accomplish with Apollo. If he is never that dog that can play with other dogs, then I want to at least teach him how to control himself. (To be honest, I would rather work with dog aggression than people aggression. I am so glad Apollo loves people)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I'm home from work today so I'll write up the method I use and post it this afternoon.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, that would be very helpful!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Lauri,

I have to disagree agree with you on the tough correction recommendation, in the case of Zoie. This dog was so aggressive we could not even get close to another human or animal.

Zoie was placed with me, after the first foster could not handle her. Nor could I, until I sought advice from a trainer that works with us and the Milwaukee Police Depertment.

Zoie's spirit remains intact, and my neighbors now mistake her for a gentle rescue named Paris that I adopted. As for the prong and use of force, I have never done that with another dog. But unlike your experience, the prong has saved the dog from being put to death.

Being that you are from the Midwest send me a personal E Mail, and I would be happy to let you know the trainer's name. 

I guess I offended the OP.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Now I am totally confused...*

New development.

Apollo will usually go up to our backyard fence and bark at the other dogs, hackles raised. Today, he went up to the fence, his barking was a little less nasty, his hackles weren't up, and his tail was wagging. He was even pawing at the fence. I haven't even really worked with him out back yet, what does this mean in terms of his aggression out back?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Wagging tail doesn't always mean happy. I think a lot of what we think is dog aggression is actually reactivity, curiosity, and a desire to check out the other dog but showing it in a very rude way which could perpetuate aggression if the other dog isn't so lenient. Some fence fighters end up being best friends when allowed to finally meet and interact. If the neighbor is willing and the dog is known to be fine, you could get a sturdy pole like a walking stick and even a muzzle for yours and allow them to meet. It's taking a risk, but a lot of times the aggressive displays fizzle to either "ho hum" or "let's play." Obviously, if either of you are uncomfortable at all or not confident in abilities to control the dogs in the event of an argument, don't attempt this.

When we first introduced my dog to another for play, my trainer was there and she had a pole made out of PVC. Everything worked out fine and after some time playing, the novelty of another dog wore off and Renji just wanted to go back to me. I'm not comfortable introducing him to other dogs at all unless my trainer is present but at least I know that most of his reactivity is due to curiosity and a desire to play. I do have to watch, though; he will not back down from a challenge and I think he might even initiate them. That's my doof.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

I was going to try this with the black lab, but not the small dogs, I don't trust them, I know for a fact that they aren't trained, that they live, eat, and poop, outside. The lab is well taken care of, and while I don't think he participates in sports, he has manners. I was thinking about muzzling Apollo and seeing what would happen dropping his leash. (That way he wouldn't feel restrained, but I can get control if something happened)

I think most of it is that Apollo is curious, but he is so rude! Basically, I am just going to try to desensitize him a lot. But slowly. Great idea with the PVC pipe.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

I wanted to say something about the concept of using harsh corrections to "fix" an aggression problem. This is old style training and has been shown to backfire on many dogs. I've seen it myself. The problem with harsh corrections is that it teaches the dog to hide their fear/reactivity. It doesn't take it away (and in fact can increase fear). So what you end up with is a dog that appears to be calm and accepting but is in all actuality full of reactivity and fear. And when that finally breaks out, it's really not pretty.

We used to use pretty stiff corrections for growling, lunging, etc. back when I first started training. The dogs learned very quickly that acting that way meant that pain would soon follow, so they quit acting that way. But I saw several incidents with these dogs (one of mine, as well as several others belonging to club members) where the dogs went from calm and quiet to full aggression without ANY signals beforehand. This was sometimes six months later, sometimes years later. We hadn't fixed a thing - we'd simply provided a weak band-aid and the infection burst out later.

There is SO much you can do with desensitization, finding the dog's comfort level and rewarding for non-reactivity, gradually increasing the criteria and continuing to reward for non-reactivity, etc. This deals with the actual problem and doesn't simply hide the dog's reaction. It builds a trust in the dog - trust in their handler, trust in their own ability to deal with problems, and trust in their surroundings. It heightens confidence, instead of using pain to force submissive behavior. And in the long run, it works MUCH better than trying to get a quick fix.

Timber1, I am really sorry to hear that you used such a harsh method on a dog that probably has tremendous fear and trust issues. And I'm further sorry that you promote these harsh corrections to others, especially online where you don't really have a clue as to the behavior of the dog being described. There's a huge risk in using corrections like you talk about - permanent scarring of the dog's confidence can happen quite easily. Using desensitization techniques is much safer and much more likely to provide a true solution.

I'm glad the OP is going with more reasonable techniques.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Beyond perhaps teaching the dog to mask his/her natural warnings, physical, compulsion-type corrections teach the dog that his agression is right - something bad happens when the perceived threat comes around!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008.... I really don't want to have to neuter them (unwanted litters aren't an issue, the boys are never out of my sight) ....


 OK slightly off topic BUT beaware, the dog doesn't need privacy to breed! Years ago I had my shep/elky off lead in a laundromat (no one else was there). A bitch in heat arrived... sigh. THAT was an embarrassing moment (well not a moment--- many moments!) I have never been so aware of the number of windows in a laundromat.


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## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

There is a new method for the kind of problem you are having with your dog, it is called CAT and here is a previous thread on it though it is not discussed in any depth or detail:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=702839&page=1

It works very quickly, in a matter of days, as opposed to CC&D, which may never really work.

In a nutshell, Dog A (aggressive) is placed in a circle with a handler. 

Dog B (any dog but esp. one who Dog A does not like) approaches Dog A from say 50ft as directed by their handler. Dog A reacts with barking, growling, lunging, etc. The second Dog A 'takes a break' for just a second from this reaction, Dog B and handler retreat. 

Then Dog B and handler repeat this over and over until they are able to get a little closer each time because Dog A is having longer and longer 'breaks' from their reaction. Eventually, over the weekend, Dog B is able to interact with Dog A. Dog A has realized it is not her aggressive behavior that makes Dog B retreat, but rather the lack of it and then also realizes that Dog B is not a threat as a result. It's the first use of operant conditioning that takes advantage of the dog's *emotions* (as in this is a living being, not a switchplate). 

Makes perfect sense doesn't it? There was an article about it by Pat Miller in the May 2008 issue of WDJ.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008.... I really don't want to have to neuter them (unwanted litters aren't an issue, the boys are never out of my sight) ....
> ...


I understand, I meant that they are either in the house under my supervision, or on a leash outside, so unless I actually let them mate, nothing will happen, promise!

Strongheart, I have heard of that technique before, and I have forgotten about it! I think if our meetup with this other dog doesn't go well, I will try that!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Melanie,

I appreciate your comments, and for the most part agree with you. Probably 19 of 20 times, I would never be harsh when training a dog. As I mentioned before, I adopted a rescue who was extremely shy, but gentle, and I would never be harsh with my adopted rescue. It would backfire horribly on the adopted dog.

But this dog, Zoie, was different. And I did not seek out the advice of a low end trainer. I worked with a guy that takes our problem rescues, after the dog had been rejected by the humane society, and was placed with a man that always adopts or places our problem rescues. As I mentioned, he also trained the best police dog, the Milwaukee Cops have ever owned. 

In this specific case, if it was not for the trainer, this dog would likely have been put to death. 

Her spirit broken, not in the least. As I told the President of our rescue group, whomever adopts this dog will end up with an intelligent, easy to work with German Shepherd. 

Our President is still concerned, because the last time she met the dog was before the help I received. So we compromised. She will take Zoie, and in exchange I get a dog that literally jumped through a two story window, glass and all, and was dumped by his first foster. 

I will add that when I got Zoie, I was disappointed in my inability to deal with this dog, as she continued to be so aggressive. Heck, NILIF was a joke, she would not even accept a treat. But things have changed for the better. To an extent few that met her prior and after the training can't believe it.

As an aside, if anyone has a desire to meet or adopt Zoie, let me know via personal E Mail.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Not trying to offend anyone, but I kinda feel like my thread is being hijacked...


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

I don't know if the thread has been hijacked, I've learnt to ignore some people and skip read those post, but to go back into topic.

Something I've used with dogs that bark out of excitement, not yet aggression but going that way if allowed or unintentionally encouraged by the owners, is to "abandon" the dog.

The idea is to tether the dog to something, like a fence or a post and to stay next to him. Then a friend with a neutral dog on leash walks near you. When the dog start barking you leave it alone "to fend for himself". If the dog calms down and seek you, you start walking towards him again, if he starts barking again, you go back. If you are able to go next to him again, give him a very good treat.

I wont say it works in every case, some dog are just to independent and don't care if they are left alone, but it worth a try, no damage can be done.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Very interesting! I'll have to give this a try too. What I like about forums with so many members is that they can give me fast responses, but varied responses on different approaches that I can try.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*



> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008Not trying to offend anyone, but I kinda feel like my thread is being hijacked...


Sent you a PM.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Ok, here it is.

To me it doesn’t matter if the dog is fearful or aggressive. The only thing that matters is that the dog is REACTIVE to other dogs. And I want to stop that reactivity.

The first step is to determine the dog’s threshold. How close can another dog get before your dog reacts.

And this is where most people fail. They think “react” means the dog starts barking and pulling or growling. By the time the dog does these things they are in full blown reaction-mode and it’s too late to try to reach them.

What I mean by “react” is how close can another dog get before your dog starts to stiffen up? Stands erect and puffs out their chest? Brings their ears forward and lifts their tail?

These are the signs of pending reaction – and they are the signals to look for. When the dog starts these they are still in a state of mind where you CAN reach them.

So, here’s how you start. Get a friend with a totally UNreactive dog. Ask them to just stand in one spot. They do not move or do anything – just stand there for now.

Put your dog on leash, start from VERY far away and walk towards them. Watch your dog for the signs I described above. The moment you see them – that is the dogs threshold. Mark that spot on the ground (I use a rock I spray painted). Turn around and walk away.

Now the real training starts.

You will not be using ANY corrections with this method (flat buckle collar - no prong). The main point is to make YOU so much more exciting than the other dog.

Start a good 50 feet from the threshold mark and walk towards the other dog. You might not get all the way to that mark because your dog already knows the other dog is out there – so watch for signals. The key here is to wait for those initial signals – when the dog sees the other dog but BEFORE their brain shuts off because of it – and then make yourself much more exciting than that other dog.

As you approach the mark watch your dog. The moment you see any reaction you will start making a fool of yourself. Seriously. You will talk baby talk, laugh, sing, jump up and down – whatever it takes to get your dog to look at YOU.

And look at you they will! The first time they usually give you a look like “Holy Crap, Mom!! What’s YOUR problem??”

The moment they look at YOU, wild praise, shove REALLY good treats in their face or their favorite toy, turn and dance away.

Here’s the end goal of all this – when your dogs sees another dog they should turn and look to YOU for praise.

So, you will continue this training. It could take hours, it could take days. Do NOT move forward too fast (another big mistake). The idea is to avoid ANY reaction.

Once the dog is anticipating your reaction at the initial threshold mark you will take one step PAST the threshold and then party with the dog, turn and go away.

If the dog DOES react just turn and walk away without a word. Drag the dog if you have to but do NOT correct them. Don’t bother trying to call them or give them commands. Once they have crossed that boundary their brain has shut off to all but their reaction. Go back and start over and be SURE to stop moving forward BEFORe the dog reacts.

When you have proceeded to the point where you reach about halfway from the initial threshold to the other dog you will change up the training. Now YOU will stand still and the other dog will approach.

Be prepared to lose some of that distance you’ve worked hard for. It’s different when the dog is coming AT your dog then when your dog is going towards another.

Just keep an eye on your dog and be sure to catch them BEFORE they go into reaction-mode. Reward just the same. Wild reward party with tons of really good treats. Once your party starts have the other owner and dog turn and walk away.

Hopefully this all makes sense.

Does this take a lot of time? Yes, it can. But it is changing the way your dog SEES other dogs. Now your dog sees them as something to either fear or fight. After the training your dog will see them as a means to a wild praise party!!

Your dog may never be friends with other dogs but you should be able to get them to the point where they ignore the other dog.

Hopefully this all makes sense. If not, let me know.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

This makes a lot of sense! Great post, everything in the method is logical, because Apollo has gotten in the state where he just won't listen. If I do it your way without the prong I can hopefully change his view on other dogs like you mentioned. This is definately worth a try! I'm trying to recruit owners with unreactive dogs, so as soon as the one person I have for sure gets better, I will definately give this a shot! Thanks for the informative post.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*



> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> And this is where most people fail. They think “react” means the dog starts barking and pulling or growling. By the time the dog does these things they are in full blown reaction-mode and it’s too late to try to reach them.


Lauri, your post is one of the best I have ever read on this forum, on this issue. Your point about timing is perfect!
Sheilah


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Thanks, Sheilah!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

If your reply about hijacking the post was meant was for me, I apologize.

"I know I am the one asking help, but tough corrections on this dog will either make him shut down, or make him worse. That is not the route I want to go."

You know your dog better then any of us, so good luck; however you proceed.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*



> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOk, here it is.
> 
> To me it doesn’t matter if the dog is fearful or aggressive. The only thing that matters is that the dog is REACTIVE to other dogs. And I want to stop that reactivity.
> 
> ...


Lauri,

I am so happy to see you post!!! This is exactly the steps I have used to work with many reactive dogs as well. It has worked beautifully. Your description is excellent!
To the OP, I really cannot stress enough how effective this method is. 
I also, second all those against using a prong/electric collar/choke collar in these situations.
These are quick "fixes" that teach the dog that warnings are not allowed, and what you end up with is a even more unpredictable and aggressive animal. People using this style are old school, impatient, and unconcerned about the owners future with the dog in my opinion. 
I am so glad to see you are more interested in clicker and desensitization! I like the gentle leader also when dealing with aggression, it really does have a calming/self controlling effect on the dogs that I have worked with. I like incorporating the clicker into this method when I get the dogs eye contact and calm behavior I feel it really reinforces what I am looking for and promotes more "thinking" on the dogs part. 
I look forward to seeing your progress! Keep us updated!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

A minor update:

We took Apollo to the vet today... He has ringworm! So we will be treating him for that and make sure it's healed before we can do anything because it is contagious, so hopefully it will clear up in a week or so, he was given a spray and shampoo.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

I have been following this with interest, and I would like to print out Lauries post, is that ok? It will go into my Control Unleashed book as a sidenote! I have one thing to add to her great advice. I would use an adjustable slip collar instead of a flat one, just in case Apollo tries to twist out of his collar. To me it is added security, and is the same feel as a flat collar to the dog. I hope Apollos ringworm clears ASAP!!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*

Thanks, I hope so too.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Now I am totally confused...*



> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI have been following this with interest, and I would like to print out Lauries post, is that ok?


Sure!!

If a dog does have issues with trying to back out of a collar I'd go with a martingale instead of the slip.

And besides, if a dog is reacting THAT much you've goon too far too fast. The idea is to avoid ALL reactions.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Oh Apollo....*

Something new, and not good.

Apollo has his issues towards other dogs, and we were going to start working on that until we found out he has ringworm, so we were going to treat that first, and then socialize him because I have heard that ringworm is contagious.

He's never taken out his issues on Zeus before, and now he's worrying me. Lately he has been very possesive of their toys, so I eliminated that by taking them away and only letting them have them when they are separated. Except now that anytime Zeus gets mad because Apollo is doing something he doesn't like, Apollo gets furious and then things escalate.

Sometimes Zeus won't be doing anything. Sometimes he will just walk past Apollo's crate, or the washroom when they are separated when they eat, and Apollo just goes nuts! He doesn't do it all the time, and he doesn't really give any warning.
Just BAM!

Help?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

I still think it is age related, too bad he is being such a bu**. I know Onyx went thru a really weird stage at just over a year, and I was sure it would end in a bite situation. The observation of the briard breeder still sticks in my mind for the flakey attitude.
I bought a muzzle and really stepped up the NILIF when she was going thru this. She did grow out of it and is really a good dog, though still fearful at the vet and if people give her touch type attention, she will give a warning growl. I observe every bit of her body language. I hope Apollo is just going thru a flakey period and more good advice for you and others that may be in simular situations will add to this thread.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

Read this thread. This is a very similar situation and I think you will find a lot of good information in it:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=804708&page=3#Post804708


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

Thanks, I muzzled him and had both boys out... He was so miserable in that muzzle, not that he was trying to get out of it, he just seemed depressed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

I only used the muzzle when Onyx was in public. I was getting her use to it at home and she removed it and brought it back to me in her mouth! There was snow on the ground and I was happy she brought it back. She was/still always wants to herd Kacie and Clover. The muzzle made it nice for them, they didn't get their legs nipped. I had the mesh one. Never had to upgrade to a wire basket. I have it still in my toolbox, but haven't needed it for a long time. I think some of these high driven dogs just need an outlet for their energy. And they seem to mature at a slower rate than the more laid back.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

That's the odd thing. Apollo is the laid back one, the one who NEVER destroyed anything. 

Zeus is the one with higher drives who needs more attention. Which he has gotten and he has been such a good boy lately.

I'm just going to have to keep an even closer eye on them, which I don't even think is possible. Hopefully Apollo is just going through a flakey stage. We will be working on him though once he gets better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

Its kind of weird, when I bring Onyx home from training, especially Sch. she goes nuts over/on Kacie, like she is getting her frustration & anxiety out on someone she trusts wont go off on her. Sch. is kind of hard on her,as she sees dogs in an agitated state. She doesn't do the bitework, cant handle it due to her temp, so only observes in small doses. but when we get home, she tries to let it all out on Kacie, but I manage this as well. Maybe Apollo is letting out his stress on Zeus, who he knows best?


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Oh Apollo....*

Could be possible. Is there anything you do specifically to redirect this frustration? Like any mental exercises or physical(I guess)?


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## lawhite (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: StrongheartThere is a new method for the kind of problem you are having with your dog, it is called CAT and here is a previous thread on it though it is not discussed in any depth or detail:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=702839&page=1
> 
> It works very quickly, in a matter of days, as opposed to CC&D, which may never really work.


Actually, if you read up on this, and it is stated in the WDJ article, CAT is no more a "quick" fix than CC & D. They state that it takes a long time, lots of reps, in different locations. I have thought of doing this with my dog, and I am going to check out the DVDs. One issue is the potential for flooding if you are not so good at reading your dogs stress level.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Apollo is a teenager and Zeus is getting there. They're being typical dog-boys. From now until Zeus is fully mature, things will be very rocky. There is a chance that they may decide they don't like each other period and that is that, permanent separation. They may be SOBs toward each other until both is mature and then calm down and decide that if they have to live with each other, they might as well enjoy it. Or maybe it's just whatever Apollo is dealing with right now that's making him pissy. Or maybe Apollo doesn't like Zeusy's hormone output (is Zeus still intact?). 

There is probably a warning you are not seeing. Does Apollo suddenly get very still when Zeus starts to walk by? Correct RIGHT THERE. His brain is planning an outburst. It could be a few moments, it could be a bare instant. Maybe Zeus is actually pushing boundaries that Apollo has set and Apollo is putting Zeus in his place! And yet Zeus apparently is trying to discipline Apollo when he does something that Zeus does not like. It could very well be that we have two teenage male dogs that will be arguing for their place in the pack and you not only have to be the ultimate boss but also the referee. Step up the leadership as much as possible. Make it crystal clear that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what either dog thinks, only what YOU decide. They live, breathe, eat, and poop by your grace. Piss off Mom, and now the dogs will be stuck doing half hour-long down-stays next to each other, dragging leashes around the house, one being crated while the other is loose, and all rights revoked from all bedrooms. Boot Camp their furry behinds!

It could be so many things, but your guys are very close in age and that could sometimes spell trouble.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm very good about getting Apollo right when he freezes up, and I will separate them when a scuffle occurs, and I will put the offender in the washroom with a babygate until he chills out. 

They are both intact boys, and Apollo has actually shown improvement on his walks, my Dad took a hunk of cheese and has been making their walks more fun and he says that Apollo is getting better. He still has a long way to go, but that is something.

You're right, they are being teenage dog boys, I will just have to cut down on their "Privileges". Do you think hand feeding would be a wise thing to do for Apollo? Zeus has no problem listening to me.

The long down stays sound like a good idea, we used to do that when Apollo would get too rough when Zeus was little, or we would just separate and alternate them. I think I will put those back into the mix.

I do think frustration is part of it though, he didn't get his walk yesterday, and he was being a bully. He got his walk today, and he has been fine with his brother so far.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'd say if you have to revoke privileges for one, revoke them for BOTH. NILIF both dogs. Take them both to square one. 



> Quote:I do think frustration is part of it though, he didn't get his walk yesterday, and he was being a bully. He got his walk today, and he has been fine with his brother so far.


Prevention is worth all the cure in the world. Exercise those two poofballs until they're too tired to even look at each other.







Keep us updated!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Will do. Everyone has been behaving so far... Apollo is even laying at the babygate. I have been rotating them today in the washroom and living room. They were out a good bit together today though, and no blood!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Did you read through the thread I posted above? It's a very similar situation and her situation is much better because she's changed the way she does things. 

I use counter conditioning and redirection for these types of problems and it has worked. It does take some time but it really does work. And I run a very tight ship around my house. Not getting along and/or bullying is not an option.









Are you going to neuter Apollo? I would do that sooner rather than later because it can help and it will certainly cut down the raging hormones.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I did read through that thread actually. It is a similar situation, but I do think Apollo's hormones along with his reactivity to other dogs are adding fuel to the fire. I have cut down on their privileges already for both of them, so they know they are in the same boat, and no one is getting special treatment.

I'm not sure if we will neuter Apollo, I mean, I know that it would help with the hormones, but what if it doesn't help at all? Then I have increased health risks for no reason. So, I would at least try to do Lauri's method first with working on his reactivity before any decision is made on neutering him.

I am also going to condition Apollo to get on the treadmill that way I can exercise him more than just one walk, and with my condition, I can't really walk him far or fast right now, so my Dad is usually the one who walks him. I just think more exercise will definately benefit Apollo. I do admit that I need to step up his mental stimulation as well.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The one thing I would add to Lauri's method is to get a rock solid focus before you start anything else. 

Have you read any of Patricia McConnell's books? I used to take Basu to classes at her training center. I think Feisty Fido would be a good one to read (basically lays out counter conditioning step by step) as well as The Other End of the Leash, if you haven't already read that. Take a look on dogwise.com under aggression. There are some other good books out there too. 

As for the neutering issues, I respectfully disagree. I have spayed or neutered all of my animals and there have been no adverse affects. However, health risks aside (and of course there are risks for not neutering) and I'm saying this from years of experience being out in the world with my own dogs and fosters, I have seen more dog-dog aggression toward un-neutered males than otherwise. Since most male dogs are neutered, they tend to react more aggressively toward un-neutered males. I've seen this from my own dogs and toward fosters I've had (before they've been neutered).


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I have been looking into books for Apollo's issues, some you mentioned, some others have reccomended to me.

I have been working on Apollo's focus, training or not, he must look to me before he does anything, eating, being let out to use the bathroom, anything. He's almost to the point where even if Zeus walks up, he's still looking at me.

With the Neutering, I will have to respectfully say that I stick to my opinion. I've read too many articles that have substantial evidence. He's my boy, my heart dog, he's had problems with his health since he was a little pup, and I don't want to risk his health by putting him through a surgery he may not need. His immune system isn't the best.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I understand. Neither is Rafi's because he had such a rough first year (before I adopted him). 

I'm just giving you a heads up that Apollo may get challenges from other dogs that he would not get were he neutered. I know that whenever an un-neutered dog would come to the dog park I used to go to there would be a line of neutered dogs waiting to try to mount him.









And I saw a huge difference in the way other male dogs reacted to my last foster Peri, before and then a couple months after he was neutered. 

Just something to be aware of...


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Update:

Something was up with Apollo when I posted about him being ugly towards his brother because today and yesterday they are back to themselves. Apollo and Zeus have been playing like they normally do, running around, laying down, gaping their chompers at each other, followed by a mellowing out and licking each other. They slept together last night in the washroom with a babygate and they did great! (They aren't ready to be left out at night yet)


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Just don't rest on your laurels. They can be like this for months, then all of a sudden decide to kick it up and get serious. Personally, I'd still "boot camp" them to drive the point home that you won't tolerate any guff. They best straighten up and fly right lest they incur the wrath of Mom!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Oh no, I'm not going to slack up again! They must mind their manners at all times, not when they feel like it. I'm just glad they aren't acting up right now.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Just an Update*

We have decided that it is the best thing for Apollo to be neutered. It will be taken care of sometime this week. Poor boy, I don't think this is what he wanted for his birthday. 

I'm usually anti-neuter before 2 years of age, but if I want it to affect his behavior, I can't wait that long. Just wanted to let you guys know how everything is going. 

Apollo plays with his brother, but I have to make sure neither of them get angry, otherwise it will set Apollo off. He's not determined to kill though because if I tell them to knock it off in a firm voice and walk up to them in a firm body language Apollo usually stops. There has been no blood, not even ripped hair or a scratch.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Just an Update*

Hopefully this will help. I know you've worked hard but every dog's an individual and though some intact males get along, some just don't. Keep in mind that Zeusy might be next in line; neutered dogs can often react negatively to intact ones. 



> Quote:Apollo plays with his brother, but I have to make sure neither of them get angry, otherwise it will set Apollo off. He's not determined to kill though because if I tell them to knock it off in a firm voice and walk up to them in a firm body language Apollo usually stops. There has been no blood, not even ripped hair or a scratch.


Typical male buttheads.







Give Apollo and Zeus a good scritchin' for me.


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