# Helper issue, is this right?



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, I have been struggling to find a place/club to work Wolf since our TD became ill and has now passed away. Yesterday was our second visit to a new club and working with this new helper. Last week, he worked Wolf on the sleeve and Wolf got in a few good bites and it seemed consistent with where we were in our training.

Yesterday however, he said that he just wanted to "play" with Wolf a little more. He put a tug on a long line and teased Wolf with it and then allowed Wolf to bite. He then pulled and pulled before he allowed Wolf to have it. Then he would not allow me to out Wolf. He made me pick him straight up by the agitation collar until he dropped it. Long story short, Wolf became more and more "agitated" . He had me stroke his sides to calm him, but then he would start the game all over again. Wolf went into "kill" mode and was violently shaking the tug. 

Now the helper does not want to work him in protection. He says that he is a dangerous dog and we need to work on his obedience. He has not even seen our obedience work. And he never let me verbally "out" Wolf.

I know you guys probably don't have the whole story, but does this sound normal. Does this helper seem to know what he is doing?

I am not inclined to go back. I am more inclined to work with my dog at home on obedience, tracking and agility and wait until I know more about what a helper should/should not be doing.

Knowledge, advice, comments welcome.


----------



## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

It sounds a little weird to me. If your dog knows 'out' or doesn't know it well enough, it seems that you practice that aspect of his attack. Did he use the term "dangerous dog"? I think you should feel lucky that you have a dog strong enough to commit to a serious bite.

Maybe your just not clicking with this guy, or he has different goals than you do.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe he was trying to get wolf to hold the tug without shaking killing it? A calm hold is better than a dog frantically shaking the tug/sleeve when it is won. 
Cradling his lower jaw while calmly petting is a way to encourage a calm hold. 
Not sure about the rest of the assessment. I think anyone working a dog would first want to see some obedience to see where the dog is before doing any bitework.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Your remarks so far seem to be on target with my thinking. I am just so new at this and it seems that the wrong kind of helper work can really screw up a dog. That is why that I am thinking to back off on protection and concentrate on the stuff that I can do myself. Wolf loves the bite work, however, so.....


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, hard to pass judgment with so little information. My first reaction is "stupid helper", but that could be unfair since I did not see the work nor do I know Wolf.

Jane, not all dogs like the jaw holding cradle and it can actually have the opposite effect.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Jane, not all dogs like the jaw holding cradle and it can actually have the opposite effect.


I know, Karlo isn't a shaker/killer but never really is into calmly holding the sleeve, he'd rather spit it to get the game back on. 
Just a thought on what the helper was trying to achieve....


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

clearcreekranch said:


> Yesterday however, he said that he just wanted to "play" with Wolf a little more. He put a tug on a long line and teased Wolf with it and then allowed Wolf to bite. He then pulled and pulled before he allowed Wolf to have it. Then he would not allow me to out Wolf. He made me pick him straight up by the agitation collar until he dropped it. Long story short, Wolf became more and more "agitated" . He had me stroke his sides to calm him, but then he would start the game all over again. Wolf went into "kill" mode and was violently shaking the tug.


We cannot say whether the helper knows what he's doing or not without seeing it, based only on a description on the internet. Particularly when there is no way to find out from the helper what he saw in the dog to make him draw conclusions. I will say though that your description of the work is perfectly normal young dog prey work. Whether young dog prey work is desired, or whether it is the best form of training for any particular dog, is open for debate. But certainly nothing in this description above would make me think the helper was off his rocker.

Nothing in your description of the work or Wolf's reaction would explain the helper's conclusion to not do protection with him. But, I would bet there is a lot missing here, probably quite a bit that the helper saw that you didn't see and that we certainly can't ascertain from so little information and without seeing it. What he saw in the dog that may have had him thinking the dog wasn't cut out for protection work, or at least not at this time, we would not do well to speculate because we can't know. We weren't there, we didn't see the dog, didn't see the work, and no matter how detailed your description of events I would expect some things were left out. Not intentionally, but because you didn't see the dog from the same perspective as the helper and didn't recognize them. Missing some things, or seeing them but not understanding them, is perfectly normal for a new handler like yourself as that ability comes from experience. Which the helper probably has more of.

I will say, and I don't mean to be offensive here, but based on some of your previous threads regarding issues with your dog in certain situations, his reactivity and unapproachability that you have written about at times, I don't find it surprising that a helper may feel he's not a good candidate for the work, at least not at this time, and focus should be elsewhere.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Chris, no offense taken. I have just gotten the opinion that this guy may think he knows more than he does. I don't know his qualifications and for that, I think that I may need a scolding. I just have been trying so hard to learn and there just seems to be such limited access to good knowledgeable clubs, helpers, etc. in my area. 

Other helpers have told me that he is right on target, has a hard bite and really wants to work. He goes after the sleeve/tug and not body parts. He is very intense and wants the sleeve/tug bad, but will out will I tell him too. He has always acted like it was one fun game and never gotten aggressive.


----------



## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> We cannot say whether the helper knows what he's doing or not without seeing it, based only on a description on the internet. Particularly when there is no way to find out from the helper what he saw in the dog to make him draw conclusions. I will say though that your description of the work is perfectly normal young dog prey work. Whether young dog prey work is desired, or whether it is the best form of training for any particular dog, is open for debate. But certainly nothing in this description above would make me think the helper was off his rocker.
> 
> Nothing in your description of the work or Wolf's reaction would explain the helper's conclusion to not do protection with him. But, I would bet there is a lot missing here, probably quite a bit that the helper saw that you didn't see and that we certainly can't ascertain from so little information and without seeing it. What he saw in the dog that may have had him thinking the dog wasn't cut out for protection work, or at least not at this time, we would not do well to speculate because we can't know. We weren't there, we didn't see the dog, didn't see the work, and no matter how detailed your description of events I would expect some things were left out. Not intentionally, but because you didn't see the dog from the same perspective as the helper and didn't recognize them. Missing some things, or seeing them but not understanding them, is perfectly normal for a new handler like yourself as that ability comes from experience. Which the helper probably has more of.


:thumbup:

To stop any more confusion, give the helper a call, email or just drive over on a training day and ask him to explain the last session to you, how he feels about the suitability of your dog for schutzhund, and where you can go from there.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Hillary_Plog said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> To stop any more confusion, give the helper a call, email or just drive over on a training day and ask him to explain the last session to you, how he feels about the suitability of your dog for schutzhund, and where you can go from there.


 
Excellent advice.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is my advice. Ask the helper why he is working the dog that way and ask him why he thinks the dog is dangerous. Tell him you are trying to understand so you can help work the dog correctly. 

Here is my guess. It sounds to me, from the behaviors of both the dog and helper that your helper is trying to promote some prey drive in your dog, where the sleeve or tug starts to mean a bit more and where he will want to hold it vs killing it. The thrashing behavior is, many times, fight, ( although it can be something else as well), and it sounds like he is channeling that fight into the sleeve. I have seen dogs like this and worked them. The helper is trying to make some distance by working the dog with a tug on a line. The line makes it possible to make more prey attractions. If he holds it and tries to move it, it is harder to make prey attractions and the dog will look more at the helper anyway because the tug, ( and of course the sleeve), is so closely attached to the helper. The closer the "prey item" is to the helper, the easier for the dog to focus on just the helper. Sounds like the helper is trying to balance things out. Might not be possible if the dog is too much on one side of things genetically.
The closer the helper is to the dog, the more the dog will want to fight with him and the worse that killing behavior is. Having said that, some dogs will not switch to a more prey driven state when the helper swings the tug, they view it as an attack and will get more agitated. That might be why he is calling the dog dangerous. Maybe not the right word or maybe it is. Requires seeing the dog to really know what is going on but that is my best guess.
It is important, IMO, for the handler to understand protection as well as the helper does. We expect the helpers to learn it all and to read and attend seminars but the handler can be there not doing much. It makes the work much easier for both if both the handler and helper understand what is going on. Also, asking why is a very good thing to do. Not only for your own knowledge but for the helper as well. When you are asked to explain what you are doing, putting it into words can be a learning experience for the person explaining as well. At least it always has been for me. I explained and clarified things in my own mind when people asked me why I worked their dogs a certain way. One of the best ways to learn IMO.

Looks like I am repeating what was already said in this thread, good advice, use it.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One more comment. Holding the dog up until he outs is a way to make the dog want the prey item more. Everything has a purpose although many helpers do not understand them. If you have a prey driven dog, outting might be a better way to go. If you have a more man, ( or woman), focused dog, using methods to make the prey more attractive is a good idea. The out command can actually raise aggression, so, not using it can be a good thing.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks, Anne and to all the rest. I am starting to understand. I plan on doing some reading on protection and drives before my dog is worked in protection again. If my club doesn't get up and going, I am going to go back and try to watch and ask questions. I seem to be the only one at this particular club that is new to the sport. It is a little intimidating. I feel that sometimes, my questions weren't well received. Could be my inhibitions and insecurities. We still don't know if this is the right place for us to train, but I am going to work on what I know and try to learn and understand this aspect before I go back or let anyone else work my dog. I have plenty of other things to concentrate on on my end.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Most helpers think they know more than they do. Good helpers are hard to find. Helpers who are good at being a trial helper but don't know how to read the dog well are more common. Thrashing on the sleeve and going to town on it is a prey instinct... thats how one kills a prey item that has been caught. Its not aggression or the mark of a dangerous dog. A dangerous dog has no interest in the sleeve and just wants a piece of the helper or handler. If the helper agitates him and then throws the tug off to the side, watch where the dog's attention goes. If its after the tug, then I don't know what the helper's issue is. At the end of the day, we're doing bitework... you will eventually get bitten (on purpose or by mistake) so in a sense all dogs in high drive are dangerous

Choking the dog off the sleeve will build drive fast. Infact, you don't want to use a command if you're choking him off as he'll grow to respond to the command with more drive and your command will stop working. 'Out' should only be given on a loose leash with no tension on the leash or on the prey item.

We have dogs in our club that are way too inclined to go right into heavy defensive drive in bitework and we have to put considerable effort into bringing them back into prey before working. Also have dogs that sometimes refuse to out. Also have had dogs that just don't want to do bite work. We don't turn away any dogs, we work them all and do our best to give that dog what it needs to progress. I don't like helpers that give up on dogs


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Here is my advice. Ask the helper why he is working the dog that way and ask him why he thinks the dog is dangerous. Tell him you are trying to understand so you can help work the dog correctly.
> 
> Here is my guess. It sounds to me, from the behaviors of both the dog and helper that your helper is trying to promote some prey drive in your dog, where the sleeve or tug starts to mean a bit more and where he will want to hold it vs killing it. The thrashing behavior is, many times, fight, ( although it can be something else as well), and it sounds like he is channeling that fight into the sleeve. I have seen dogs like this and worked them. The helper is trying to make some distance by working the dog with a tug on a line. The line makes it possible to make more prey attractions. If he holds it and tries to move it, it is harder to make prey attractions and the dog will look more at the helper anyway because the tug, ( and of course the sleeve), is so closely attached to the helper. The closer the "prey item" is to the helper, the easier for the dog to focus on just the helper. Sounds like the helper is trying to balance things out. Might not be possible if the dog is too much on one side of things genetically.
> The closer the helper is to the dog, the more the dog will want to fight with him and the worse that killing behavior is. Having said that, some dogs will not switch to a more prey driven state when the helper swings the tug, they view it as an attack and will get more agitated. That might be why he is calling the dog dangerous. Maybe not the right word or maybe it is. Requires seeing the dog to really know what is going on but that is my best guess.
> ...


I would add that in order to not come off as doubting the helper's assessment, say "I would like to learn to be a helper someday, so can you explain what you saw and how you came to that conclusion? I'm new and it didn't look any different to me than any other dog" or something along those lines.. make it clear you respect his opinion and what to learn, not argue about your dog's qualities


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks, Hunter. Wolf is always focused on the sleeve or the tug as he was this time. He has been tested on this aspect on numerous occasions and he always wants to get at the tug/sleeve. No helper has ever felt that Wolf was not 100% focused on the tug/sleeve. Some dummies have even worked in their shorts.....I must say that Wolf has not ever been worked on the tug with a long line and as much noise and motion that this helper was using, so this was actually a different kind of game for him with a new person.

And I do plan on going back and asking the helper to explain it to me. A side note, just found out this helper is going away for 4 mos. and a new helper will be taking his place at the end of June. Does this hurt my dog since he is still trying to learn? Should I just wait until I find something more stable? It does seem that helpers are few and far between, and good helpers.........


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would still go back and get a feel for the club. The new helper may be better for your dog. You won't know until he comes.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

clearcreekranch said:


> Thanks, Hunter. Wolf is always focused on the sleeve or the tug as he was this time. He has been tested on this aspect on numerous occasions and he always wants to get at the tug/sleeve. No helper has ever felt that Wolf was not 100% focused on the tug/sleeve. Some dummies have even worked in their shorts.....I must say that Wolf has not ever been worked on the tug with a long line and as much noise and motion that this helper was using, so this was actually a different kind of game for him with a new person.
> 
> And I do plan on going back and asking the helper to explain it to me. A side note, just found out this helper is going away for 4 mos. and a new helper will be taking his place at the end of June. Does this hurt my dog since he is still trying to learn? Should I just wait until I find something more stable? It does seem that helpers are few and far between, and good helpers.........


I've just started down the road of becoming a helper. I have no interest in being a trial helper, just in better reading the dogs. I've worked a dog in a t-shirt and shorts once. I won't be doing that again. Claws are sharp. I always wear a leather apron now.

If the new one is a decent helper, it won't hurt the dog, but there won't be a lot of progress while the helper learns your dog better.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok, I just wondered how confused these dogs get when different people work them with different techniques. And I want to make sure that we are still having fun and learning and not getting more confused and more screwed up than we are. LOL Wolf gets soooooooo excited on training day and is so much happier with a job. so, I will keep talking with you guys and keep doing my reading and dvd watching and go back a few more times and see how things progess.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The best seminar I've ever been to... half the day was just discussing protection work and what a helper should be doing within the context of each of our dogs that were worked that morning. The speaker said his hope was to make sure you knew exactly what you wanted out of the helper, and when to see a helper is not doing what he should. Often people blindly trust whatever the helper says to do and aren't well equipped knowledge-wise to dispute or disagree.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> The best seminar I've ever been to... half the day was just discussing protection work and what a helper should be doing within the context of each of our dogs that were worked that morning. The speaker said his hope was to make sure you knew exactly what you wanted out of the helper, and when to see a helper is not doing what he should. Often people blindly trust whatever the helper says to do and aren't well equipped knowledge-wise to dispute or disagree.


Guilty as charged! Not anymore. I don't know why I haven't ask more questions; I'm definitely not shy. I think it is just intimidating starting something new and then before you really know what you are doing, having to change groups/trainers, etc. in midstream. I have felt like my dog is up for inspection and somehow doesn't fit the mold. I don't think he is going to a nationals prospect(I know he is not the perfect Schutzhund dog), but I do hope to surprise a lot of people with our determination and dedication.

I am going to a Dave Kroyer seminar in June. Hope to get more knowledge.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

clearcreekranch said:


> I feel that sometimes, my questions weren't well received.





hunterisgreat said:


> I would add that in order to not come off as doubting the helper's assessment, say "I would like to learn to be a helper someday, so can you explain what you saw and how you came to that conclusion? I'm new and it didn't look any different to me than any other dog" or something along those lines.. make it clear you respect his opinion and what to learn, not argue about your dog's qualities


I dunno, a part of me thinks that we shouldn't have to tip-toe around a helper's ego in order to get answers and do what is best for our dogs. There are a few points of training where I disagree with my helper/TD and he knows this. It's not personal. My dogs belong to me and I will train them and have them worked as I see fit. If I need to constantly re-phrase my questions in a way that makes me seem more inexperienced so that the helper feels justified....well, I'd be on my way to a new helper. The helper is part of the club too. He doesn't know *everything* about all dogs.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> And I do plan on going back and asking the helper to explain it to me. A side note, just found out this helper is going away for 4 mos. and a new helper will be taking his place at the end of June. Does this hurt my dog since he is still trying to learn? Should I just wait until I find something more stable? It does seem that helpers are few and far between, and good helpers........


We were discussing helper work at our club last weekend. The helper should be directed by you on what you want to work on. Though the inexperienced may not know what to work on, so staying with a consistant helper is important for newbies with green dogs. 
We visited a club recently where the helper didn't know the dogs. 
He asked at the beginning what we were working on and what we wanted to do. He told me after my session that I need to slow down and take more control...it is *my* dog, *my* field and* I* am in control of the helper during *my* time. And if I do something that is unsafe, I better be ready to explain!
It was kind of a lightbulb moment for me, I've always let the helper take the lead....because I do trust who is working my dog. 
It is always good to ask questions, even when other dogs are being worked, to understand why they are doing what at the time. Every session I watch, I learn something!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

While we do need to control our training, we also have to trust the helper to do what he thinks is best for the dog during our sessions. The helper sees things from the front of the dog that we can not see from behind. That, of course, doesn't mean we have to allow the helper to do what ever he wants. I had a helper tell me that he could probably fix Vala coming in and taking a cheap shot when she first came into the blind. I told him that if he stick hit my dog I would take the stick and beat him with it.  He laughed and said, no, that wasn't what he was going to suggest. :rofl: We are our dogs voice so it is always up to us to do what we feel is best for them. 

OK, sort of got off topic.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL true Lisa. Every time I send my dog in my first question is "What did he do?" I hate training in the building but sometimes it is nice b/c there are lots of mirrors!

That said I would hate for someone to feel like they can't ask questions or have to be careful about how they are phrased simply for being the newbie. Not sure about other clubs but when we have visitors we LOVE the people who watch every dog, ask tons of questions, want to stand near the helper (depending on the dog). And every once in a while, a "what the bleep was that?" is appropriate!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Agree. As Anne pointed out earlier, we need to understand what is going on in order to do the best work with our dogs.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I dunno, a part of me thinks that we shouldn't have to tip-toe around a helper's ego in order to get answers and do what is best for our dogs. There are a few points of training where I disagree with my helper/TD and he knows this. It's not personal. My dogs belong to me and I will train them and have them worked as I see fit. If I need to constantly re-phrase my questions in a way that makes me seem more inexperienced so that the helper feels justified....well, I'd be on my way to a new helper. The helper is part of the club too. He doesn't know *everything* about all dogs.


In a perfect world no... But for most of us there is only one convenient club... Rolling to the next helper isn't always a viable option. If placating someones ego gets the job done, I'm ok with that.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> LOL true Lisa. Every time I send my dog in my first question is "What did he do?" I hate training in the building but sometimes it is nice b/c there are lots of mirrors!
> 
> That said I would hate for someone to feel like they can't ask questions or have to be careful about how they are phrased simply for being the newbie. Not sure about other clubs but when we have visitors we LOVE the people who watch every dog, ask tons of questions, want to stand near the helper (depending on the dog). And every once in a while, a "what the bleep was that?" is appropriate!


I film almost everthIng so I can critique myself and the dog


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

This discussion has been very helpful. I would love to tell you all the whole story about my experience with this club, but I have learned that discretion is the better part of valor or in other words, keep my big mouth shut. Wolf and I have been told that because of Wolf's "temperament" , this club will not accept liability and responsibility related to teaching him bite work. If I want to do the sport, it is suggested that I get a more suitable dog. He is reactive to people at this point and I did warn them. I just thought that a club that is knowledgeable would help me with this aspect of my dog and not tell me to get a new dog after 2 and I might add, very short sessions. My former club never said that this was going to be a long term problem and they were willing to help me train through it. Of course, they knew my dog for a year. I miss them so much.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would tend to agree, if your dog is showing reactivity to people, best not to train him in bitework.
I would find a good behaviorist and spend your time working on that issue instead of doing SchH. 

Onyx is the same way, I got a pup to continue with SchH...don't take it personally, some dogs just aren't right for it.
Your club may have someone willing to work with you on Wolfs reactivity. Good luck!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's hard for us to say because we've never seen the dog. In general, most SchH clubs are serious about SchH and not so much about helping with behavior issues. A lot of behavior issues are what they are, and behaviorist can make a lot of money trying to help "desensitize" dogs or whatever but if a dog has a particular issue it may come down to just being managed properly and finding activities that suit the dog's temperament. For example, I get a lot of e-mails from people who say their dog is "dog aggressive". Well, in the context of SchH we are not a dog park, dogs do not come out to interact with each other. What we can help with is making sure your dog minds YOU and works when it's time to work without getting distracted, but the dog might always be dog aggressive.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

dog aggressive and people aggressive are different.
As a newbie to bitework, I never would train my 'people reactive' dog in protection, way to hard to manage and a liability already~ let alone not stable in the nerve dept.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have a dog with a short fuse and very strong forward aggression. I have gotten the feeling that my club would rather not work him and I respect that. The club, and particularly club officers and property owners, may well be liable if any incident were to occur.
Another club I have been to loves that same dog.
Each club is different, and it is best sometimes to just accept that.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Each club is different. Some are willing to work with special cases, some not. At times it comes down to a question of resources and comfort level for the club, and whether they have the ability and desire to work with a less than ideal dog. But at the same time liability can indeed be a very big issue. I've known at least one case where and unsuitable dog was trained in SchH, years later bit an innocent bystander, and the trainer who had done the initial SchH work with the dog many years before was also named in the lawsuit. So I can definitely see, and support, a club that is unwilling to work with a dog that they feel could be a liability due to temperament, because if something ever happens, even years down the road, they can be held responsible for teaching that dog "to bite people". Sad reality, but a very common one.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks so much for the input. You guys really have helped me understand things better. Other things happened at this club that I was not comfortable with and had nothing to do with my dog. This just helped me make my decision not to go back and to keep looking for a better fit.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> Each club is different. Some are willing to work with special cases, some not.


I agree. But who YOU are makes a difference too. If the club members like you they will deal with your dog. You might be surprised at how much love $20 worth of snacks and drinks will buy you.


----------



## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

clearcreekranch said:


> Ok, I have been struggling to find a place/club to work Wolf since our TD became ill and has now passed away. Yesterday was our second visit to a new club and working with this new helper. Last week, he worked Wolf on the sleeve and Wolf got in a few good bites and it seemed consistent with where we were in our training.
> 
> Yesterday however, he said that he just wanted to "play" with Wolf a little more. He put a tug on a long line and teased Wolf with it and then allowed Wolf to bite. He then pulled and pulled before he allowed Wolf to have it. Then he would not allow me to out Wolf. He made me pick him straight up by the agitation collar until he dropped it. Long story short, Wolf became more and more "agitated" . He had me stroke his sides to calm him, but then he would start the game all over again. Wolf went into "kill" mode and was violently shaking the tug.


All of this is pretty typical.
Choking the dog off the bite adds drive, because the dog feels the item slooooooowly slipping away, and next time, fights harder to keep it.

For that reason, many people like to use it, especially with newer dogs, as it's a quick way to build drive and encourage the dog to bite harder. 





> Now the helper does not want to work him in protection. He says that he is a dangerous dog and we need to work on his obedience. He has not even seen our obedience work. And he never let me verbally "out" Wolf.
> 
> I know you guys probably don't have the whole story, but does this sound normal. Does this helper seem to know what he is doing?
> 
> ...


Not knowing the whole story, I don't know what the helper sees.
I suspect that he sees something that has him concerned, and is trying to spare your feelings.

Email him outside of training and ask him to level with you. Explain that you aren't trying to disagree with him or his opinion, but that you want to know what it is, and what his reasoning is for putting protection work on pause. Don't be confrontational. Don't object to the idea of putting protection work on hold. Be very clear that all you want, is to know *why* he thinks that is the best thing to do right now. 

What is it that makes him concerned about the dog's safety? Specifically.

If he cannot, or will not, give you VERY specific reasons for discouraging further protection work, then you need to find a new helper.
For a training relationship to work, he has to be willing to tell you what he sees in your dog. 

If his _*SOLE*_ reason for discouraging protection work is the shaking on the tug, you need a new helper. If he cites that as the reason, he's either lying to you, or an idiot.

I know that you're thinking of seeking a new club already, but you really need to get a full answer from him, regardless of what you decide.

You need to know what he saw. He may have very valid points, that you need to hear, about your dog and its suitability.
He may not.

But you need to know.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Just sent an e-mail to the helper asking what he saw in my dog that made him think that we should not be doing bite work at this time.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> While we do need to control our training, we also have to trust the helper to do what he thinks is best for the dog during our sessions. The helper sees things from the front of the dog that we can not see from behind. That, of course, doesn't mean we have to allow the helper to do what ever he wants. I had a helper tell me that he could probably fix Vala coming in and taking a cheap shot when she first came into the blind. I told him that if he stick hit my dog I would take the stick and beat him with it.  He laughed and said, no, that wasn't what he was going to suggest. :rofl: We are our dogs voice so it is always up to us to do what we feel is best for them.
> 
> OK, sort of got off topic.


Lisa,

I disagree, I think this is the essence of the topic. Taking charge of your dog's training comes with experience and knowledge. The key to navigating through the initial period is training with folks you are comfortable with and can trust.

In a trial, the Helper works for the Judge, in training, the Helper works for the Handler/Trainer.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Fast said:


> I agree. But who YOU are makes a difference too. If the club members like you they will deal with your dog. You might be surprised at how much love $20 worth of snacks and drinks will buy you.


Amen! I am a jerk, but I bring bagels every week!!!!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hmmm, yeah and I bring a show line dog out every weekend!

I think you have to trust your helper, but not just *because* he's a/the helper, if that makes sense? 

My helper and I may not always agree 100% on everything but I think we adhere to the same "program" as far as how we view protection and the progression of training a dog. I've gone a few other places and we are not as well suited for that, not because I think those helpers are bad or wrong but it's just a different program, my dog doesn't really understand it and won't work very seriously or to his full potential. I visited one club and did not like how the SchH protection was being done but I did like the decoy work so I had my dog worked on a suit and did SDA routines rather than SchH. But they have their own club dogs that make progress so what works for them may not work for me and vice versa. I look more at the overall picture based on how I personally view protection and not just the SchH routines and how the points are awarded.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

W.Oliver said:


> Lisa,
> 
> I disagree, I think this is the essence of the topic. Taking charge of your dog's training comes with experience and knowledge. The key to navigating through the initial period is training with folks you are comfortable with and can trust.
> 
> In a trial, the Helper works for the Judge, in training, the Helper works for the Handler/Trainer.



I have been a little too trusting and "not taking charge" because of my ignorance. Not anymore. If I have learned nothing from this whole experience other than I need to do more reading, more asking questions and more watching, Wolf will benefit greatly. I started on this journey just wanting a companion and a dog that people will not bother me when I take trips alone and now it has become that and I REALLY want to keep training. LOL


----------



## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Do you have a training director at your club along with the helpers? One nice thing about having a training director you can ask questions of if you are a novice they can help guide you a little instead of blind faith with the helper.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> Do you have a training director at your club along with the helpers? One nice thing about having a training director you can ask questions of if you are a novice they can help guide you a little instead of blind faith with the helper.


Not a lot of guidance and the "TD" or who everyone says will decide if they let me join is the one who told me to get a new dog and she could direct me to a breeder.

Update, went back one more time to check things out. It just isn't a good fit for Wolf and I right now. I am going to keep looking until we find something that is right for both of us and I will keep training at home, going to seminars, reading and watching dvds(and of course, listening to what you guys are talking about).


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

clearcreekranch said:


> Update, went back one more time to check things out. It just isn't a good fit for Wolf and I right now. I am going to keep looking until we find something that is right for both of us and I will keep training at home, going to seminars, reading and watching dvds(and of course, listening to what you guys are talking about).


Hey I'm going to audit the seminar in Magnolia at Rod Dean's kennel the first weekend of June. Maybe I'll see you there!!


----------

