# Possible Oops breeding WWYD?



## Cory

I sent my bitch out with her handler with hopes of finishing her championship. While out with her handler she came into her 2nd heat cycle (she is 18 months old) 2 days ago I got a call from the handler that there was a problem. A 1 year old puppy that was crated next to her tied with her through the two crates (I do not own the puppy). This puppy is also a purebred GSD. At this moment we can not confirm whether or not she is pregnant. The handler is taking responsibility and is willing to pay for whatever I choose to do, should she be pregnant.

Here are more facts my bitch is clear for DM, puppy is a carrier. Neither dog has been OFAed yet (handler did offer to pay for preliminary OFA testing if I choose to keep the litter). I have not yet been able to contact the puppies owner. I had not decided on whether or not I was going to breed this bitch, and if it had it wouldn't have been for a couple of years. I would not have choose this dog to breed to, I am not a fan of his temperament. I have never raised a litter before but did plan to years down the line. I feel like if my bitch were to have this litter, my reputation in the area would be ruined. People love to talk and if they did not know the circumstances of how this happened, I feel like my name would be dragged right through the mud. I feel like I would have to sell the puppies totally under the radar and that people within the very small show community wouldn't be aloud to find out. Would I even register the puppies, or just sell them at a cheap cost with no papers? 

On the other hand, there is an emergency spay option, but with that option out goes all the time and money I've spent showing her. Her show career would be over. This option also comes with a medical risk. Of course her young age also poses a risk as well. So I guess this post is more of a vent/rant..it's too early to tell if she's pregnant so fingers crosses she's not. But at the same time I need to prepare. I'm wondering what would you do in my situation?


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## wolfy dog

Good that the handler takes responsibility. I personally would not spay her if you want to raise a legitimate litter down the road. Maybe do a litter reduction right after birth and leave 4 puppies to make it easier on the young mother. Don't know which sells easier, males or females. Then I would sell them for pet fee without papers and let people talk and gossip whatever they want to. The handler's reputation is also at stake and I think he needs to pay for the cost of raising the litter until the pups are off to their new owners. Keeping a secret will not work so you might as well bring it out in the open so they hear it first hand. A good lesson for everyone. I always wonder how crated dogs can pull this off? How do they do that? In Europe there is shot that works as the morning after pill but don't know about the US. But you have to be quick for that.


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## Stonevintage

The mis-bred shot. I got that for my female twice in her lifetime. Worked fine. I believe it has to be given within 48 hours. Shame the breeder didn't allow you time for that option. 

As far as I know, it's still available here in the USA. Mine got her shots 20 some years ago.


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## gsdsar

Yes. There is a mismate shot. It can be given fairly late in pregnancy. Occasionally multiple shots are needed. It should be done under the close supervision of a veterinarian. 

Many primary vets won't do it. You would most likely need to find a reproduction specialist. It carries a risk of pyometra. 

I think you need to figure out what feels right to you. 

Personally I would prefer to do a mismate shot than to cull puppies after they are born. Once they are on the ground, I couldn't kill them. 

If you chose to keep the litter, I think being upfront and honest about what happened is the best way to go. I would be wary of anyone selling pups on the DL to protect their reputation. 

You could spay her as well. But it's up to you to decide if you think she has a lot of promise as a show dog and what your priorities are.


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## wolfy dog

Does anyone know how two dogs in separate crates can mate? Maybe they were out together and this was the "explanation"?


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## Cory

Please tell me more about this mismate shot. If the risk is low that is obviously our best option. It has been after 48 hours but I will still contact our vet when he opens in the morning to ask the best option (this happens over the weekend, so we haven't been able to get in touch with him yet). I will call first thing in the morning and keep everybody in the loop with what the vet recommends.

If we do end up keeping the litter, I agree selling on the DL sounds really sketchy. I also wouldn't want to be advertising all over the internet "Oops litter but don't worry-Not my fault". I don't want to bring negative attention to the handler either. Aside from this incident, this handler has handled my dogs for years and I've been very pleased. I definitely don't want a huge public internet bashing of this handler.

Wolfy dog-I have heard of this happening before. They can also mate through chain link fences as well.

I definitely have a lot of option weighing to do. I'm sure the shot comes with risks, as done going through and letting her have this litter. I think the choice would be easier had the puppy been any other puppy. From what I know of this puppy his temperament is really not that great. Now I only know this puppy from what I can see at shows, but what I see in that environment I do not like. He appears to be dog reactive, and on more that one occasion I have seen him be excused from the ring for reasons such as cowering away from the judge.


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## Sunflowers

wolfy dog said:


> Does anyone know how two dogs in separate crates can mate? Maybe they were out together and this was the "explanation"?


Yup. Exactly what I wonder.

Sketchy.


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## Cory

Sunflowers said:


> Yup. Exactly what I wonder.
> 
> Sketchy.


I'm told this happened in the van used to transport the dogs to shows. 2 wire crates right next to each other...same thing as 2 dogs breeding through a chain link fence. 

Even if what I'm told wasn't the real story, I'm still in the same position.


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## gsdsar

There a few different drugs that are used for this purpose. And which one is chosen is going to depend on the stage of estrus, how far past mating you are, and veterinary experience. 

Call your vet. Most can be used at least up to day 30, some up to day 45. They carry increased risk of pyometra, can be very uncomfortable and can fail all together, in which the pups would end up not being viable, but carried to term. So it could be a mess. 

I have seen it done in a few dogs they all came through just fine and went on to carry healthy litters. My vet used a drug called lutalyse. 

Each med works to block or overload certain hormones to make the pregnancy fail.


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## wyominggrandma

The mismate shot DOES carry risks. It will bring her back into heat basically for another three weeks. It also carries a big risk of pyometra, which is either an immediate spay or possible death of your girl.
I'm sorry but I have handled dogs for years and have never had two dogs breed through a wire crate. I can't understand how they would tie for any length of time without someone getting hurt, even a big crate. How in the world would the male dog be able to hold on to the female through a wire crate long enough to tie? Hmm, I have also heard of dogs breeding through chain link, although in 40 years of having dogs together, big and small, have never had one breed through the fence or in a crate. Again, not like the male can put his front feet/legs through the fence/wire to hold onto female to breed and tie with her, then get front legs out of fence/wire, turn around and stay tied like that .
If this had happened to me, I would have flushed the female out immediately with water, I know this kills the sperm. The "eggs" are still free floating, have not planted into the uterine walls until at least day 15 or 16, not sure what day she is on. I would ask the vet to flush her out immediately, might help instead of giving the mismate shot. 
I think you are not being told the whole story, being around handlers and their helpers, sounds more likely that someone put them in the same expen or had them out at the same time and he caught her. I never ever kept females in heat anywhere around male dogs, young or old, especially client dogs to not have an issue happen. 

Your handler was negligent pure and simple, glad he/she is paying for everything. Like I said, have your vet flush your girl out as soon as you can, and then cross your fingers that she did not take. If she is pregnant, have the litter, sell them as unregistered and be truthful, she was bred while out with a handler. Not your fault, and your handler that you are PAYING to take care of your girl, was negligent and I'm sorry, maybe this story needs to be put out there in the show world so it doesn't happen to anyone else. Having it happen to one client is bad enough


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## Cory

wyominggrandma said:


> The mismate shot DOES carry risks. It will bring her back into heat basically for another three weeks. It also carries a big risk of pyometra, which is either an immediate spay or possible death of your girl.
> I'm sorry but I have handled dogs for years and have never had two dogs breed through a wire crate. I can't understand how they would tie for any length of time without someone getting hurt, even a big crate. How in the world would the male dog be able to hold on to the female through a wire crate long enough to tie? Hmm, I have also heard of dogs breeding through chain link, although in 40 years of having dogs together, big and small, have never had one breed through the fence or in a crate. Again, not like the male can put his front feet/legs through the fence/wire to hold onto female to breed and tie with her, then get front legs out of fence/wire, turn around and stay tied like that .
> If this had happened to me, I would have flushed the female out immediately with water, I know this kills the sperm. The "eggs" are still free floating, have not planted into the uterine walls until at least day 15 or 16, not sure what day she is on. I would ask the vet to flush her out immediately, might help instead of giving the mismate shot.
> I think you are not being told the whole story, being around handlers and their helpers, sounds more likely that someone put them in the same expen or had them out at the same time and he caught her. I never ever kept females in heat anywhere around male dogs, young or old, especially client dogs to not have an issue happen.
> 
> Your handler was negligent pure and simple, glad he/she is paying for everything. Like I said, have your vet flush your girl out as soon as you can, and then cross your fingers that she did not take. If she is pregnant, have the litter, sell them as unregistered and be truthful, she was bred while out with a handler. Not your fault, and your handler that you are PAYING to take care of your girl, was negligent and I'm sorry, maybe this story needs to be put out there in the show world so it doesn't happen to anyone else. Having it happen to one client is bad enough


Thank you for your input. It is after hours our primary vet is closed. There is an emergency vet about 2 hours away, if I take her now to get flushed out would it make much of a difference vs. waiting until morning for primary vet?

ALso, I did not realize how impossible this feat would be. I figured I've heard of them breeding through fences before, so thought the possibility could be pretty likely. Your explanation makes me think otherwise. I think I need to have a follow up conversation with the handler, and also speak to the puppies owner as soon as I'm able to get a hold of her (i haven't been able to get her on the phone). Seeing that you are a handler, how do you suggest I start that conversation and what should I say?


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## gsdsar

Flush with water? Sorry but that sounds like the old wives tale of douching after sex to prevent pregnancy. Years of working with a repro vet and have never heard that before. Sorry. 

Yes the mismate shot carries risks. That's why it's up to the OP to decide what's best for her dog. 

How it happened is a moot point now. Now she has to deal with the aftermath. She can make a decision as to whether she will continue to trust this handler or not.


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## llombardo

Cory said:


> Thank you for your input. It is after hours our primary vet is closed. There is an emergency vet about 2 hours away, if I take her now to get flushed out would it make much of a difference vs. waiting until morning for primary vet?
> 
> ALso, I did not realize how impossible this feat would be. I figured I've heard of them breeding through fences before, so thought the possibility could be pretty likely. Your explanation makes me think otherwise. I think I need to have a follow up conversation with the handler, and also speak to the puppies owner as soon as I'm able to get a hold of her (i haven't been able to get her on the phone). Seeing that you are a handler, how do you suggest I start that conversation and what should I say?


If the handler isn't being honest then is it possible it's not even the male in question?


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## wolfstraum

I would not do a mismate shot - I know a few vets who are board certified repro vets who will not give it.

If the handler is assuming responsibility, he needs to inform the owner of the male as well.

If the female is bred, I would have the pups, and if possible, paper them on limited papers, and place carefully in pet homes at reasonable enough prices so that people perceive them to have reasonable value - not throwaway pups. The handler should apologize to the owners of the male and try to arrange papers for the pups - no reason to jeopardize the future of the pups if you can paper them. You did not make the mistake, you did not condone the breeding and you have nothing to hide...cite the circumstances publicly and enlist the handler's assistance to place the pups appropriately. 

Lee


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## Cory

llombardo said:


> If the handler isn't being honest then is it possible it's not even the male in question?


As of right now I don't have any actual proof of the handler being dishonest, just some comments on here that lead me to believe that I may not have got the real story. I believed the story until I came here.

It doesn't make sense for him to lie though? The show they were at was a specialty so his van was full of pure bred GSDs. The worst case scenario is that the puppy was the one that got to her. Every other dog he had with him was older, had points towards their championships, better temperament and some have had preliminary OFAs and the older ones official OFAs. If he was going to lie about which dog surely he would of said it was one of the dogs that was more "ideal" for us to be in this situation with.


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Lee. I'd also get both dogs hips and elbows xray'd as well so at least you have that knowledge going forward.


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## Kahrg4

Maybe I missed it, so correct me if I'm wrong. There does still exist the possibility that your female isn't pregnant, right? Aka, might be best to wait and get that checked first?


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## lhczth

Agree with Lee.


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## Magwart

Culling healthy pups seems like it's fraught with moral issues to me, if she carries the litter. 

If that's on the table, and she really is pregnant, please see if a reputable breed rescue will work with you on placements, if your handler is carrying all costs. Some rescues will be ugly because you may yet want to breed the dog in the future -- ignore them and move on. Others will be happy to help, if they have waiting lists of good adopters who want pups, esp. if you agree at the outset that you will donate all the adoption fees to the rescue. That donation would end up supporting the care of older, sick dogs every rescue has draining resources. Rescue adopters don't care about papers and will be under spay/neuter contracts. 

Partnering with a good breed rescue has another benefit. It ensures a safety net for life for these dogs, if placements don't work out. Otherwise you may have to be the safety-net for 12 or so years -- and possibly deal with that out-of-the blue phone call a few years from now from the person who's got a new baby and no longer wants the dog, or the shelter who found it stray and tracked it back to you through a microchip you purchased years ago. Someone's got to be there for them--bad stuff happens, no matter how carefully breeders and rescues screen, and if you aren't ready to take on that responsibility spanning more than a decade, it would be wise to get help.


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## wolfstraum

Magwart has another perspective that I agree is a very viable alternative if she is pregnant....

I missed the comment about culling in previous posts....I am not in agreement with culling at all.

Lee


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## shepherdmom

Cory said:


> I would not have choose this dog to breed to, I am not a fan of his temperament.


This says it all. If there is a pregnancy terminate. You do not want puppies of uncertain temperament in the pet world.


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## middleofnowhere

As I understood it, terminating a pregnancy is hard on the bitch. I don't know what I would do. Hang the handler's butt on a flag pole. If the handler is covering all expenses, does that include replacing your bitch with another of your choosing? This is a collossal (sp) screw up. THe OP seems amazingly calm. I would not be amazingly calm.


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## selzer

#1 It is absolute baloney that the dog and bitch managed to tie while being crated next to each other. Not possible. Your handler is lying to you. If you watch this procedure, you will know this it true, so, find a new handler.

For the bitch's health, I would not spay nor would I do a mismate shot. Have the puppies. Then continue your bitch's show career. 

Good luck.


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## wolfy dog

DNA test the pups to find out more about the story.
I take back my advice of culling; never thought of getting the rescue involved. Seems the best solution.


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## wyominggrandma

Old wives tale or not, we have flushed out eggs of mares to implant in another mare, dogs could be flushed just the same with saline to remove eggs before they implant. Maybe I am an "old wife".
Just curious, is the handler well known?


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## holland

Hopefully she isn't pregnant-it does seem very odd that both dogs were in a crate and the female might be pregnant?? I might ask a few questions-


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## Cory

UPDATE:
I took the day off of work to figure things out. We spoke and met with a nice repro vet that was able to talk us through the situation. He did an exam on her and found that she was in good health. We talked through our options should she be pregnant and he believes the safest option for us is to let her go ahead and have the litter. He said an 18 month old in good health having a litter had lower health risks when compared to terminating the pregnancy. We talked about our concerns about us having never raised a litter before. The emergency vet is a 2 hour drive from us, so that was a little unsettling to us. The repro vet actually has a few contacts in our area that he is referring us to for some nice local help. I'm really glad we went in and spoke with him today.

Today I also spoke with the handler and told him about our vet visit and our decision (yes handler is well known somebody here had asked). He has reimbursed us all handling expenses for last week, is paying all vet care for puppies, dam and x-rays on both parents. He will help us find homes, and if we can't find homes by 12 weeks he is taking the extra puppies back.

I also was able to get in touch with the males owner. I told her about how we were going to have the litter is she was pregnant-she wants a stud fee now. We're going to let the handler deal with that one LOL

We have a follow up appointment with the repro vet next month but for now we are just keeping her happy and healthy. Thanks everyone that contributed to the thread.


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## wolfy dog

And maybe she won't be pregnant. Sounds like you all came to a good solution. I guess the winner is the stud dog's owner. Best to you.


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## Liesje

I think you made the right choice. If you are undecided on breeding her later (meaning, you may want to), I would wait it out, hope she's not pregnant, and not risk trying to terminate the pregnancy, especially with the handler offering help as his reputation is on the line.


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## LuvShepherds

A stud fee for a dog of questionable temperament for puppies that no one wants? Why not give the owner of the male all the puppies as a stud fee. Problems solved.


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## onyx'girl

wow, she wants a stud fee for a pup of questionable temperament? I find that despicable and hope she doesn't try to promote her puppy as a stud until he has his health tests and some titles to prove he is worthy of reproducing.


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## selzer

Why would no one want the puppies? Because of a slightly higher risk of DM? The pup's owner is providing the paperwork so that the litter is AKC registered. She did not approve of the breeding prior. If you want the puppies to be able to go to the best homes they can, then pay the stud fee, or have the handler pay the stud fee, but you want the puppies to have the opportunity for papers.


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## LuvShepherds

I didn't realize they are both AKC and might end up being good puppies. Didn't someone say that there may not be buyers for them? I read it all quickly, might have missed something.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> wow, she wants a stud fee for a pup of questionable temperament? I find that despicable and hope she doesn't try to promote her puppy as a stud until he has his health tests and some titles to prove he is worthy of reproducing.


 The owner of the bitch is not a fan of the pup's temperament The owner of the dog-pup might be perfectly happy with his temperament. Who is right? 

If you want to register the litter, you need to pay the stud fee. If not, then don't pay the stud fee. That's pretty simple. But I think having the pups registered and then selling them on a limited registration allows you to make that decision when the pups have grown a bit, if you want. 

I'd still fire the handler. Accidents do not just happen. A handler ought to be able to hand the animals he is boarding at his place. And then lying about the animals being crated and tying through a pair of crates -- that is actually insulting.


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## Liesje

I think the handler should settle up with the male pup's owners. The OP did a good thing by making sure they know what happened. It happened on (in?) the handler's property and was the handler's fault.


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## Magwart

Who's keeping the purchase fees for these pups? The handler?


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> Why would no one want the puppies? Because of a slightly higher risk of DM? .



Bad temperment, risk of DM. Too young parents. I wouldn't want one of those puppies! I sure as heck wouldn't pay for one.


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## Sabis mom

Two points to make. You said your bitch was DM clear and the male was a carrier? The worst that could be produced is a carrier. 
The dog owner wants a stud fee? I would say only if the DNA test proves him the father. Since this was negligent handling, how else would you ever know? You would not want to register the pups with the wrong sire listed.


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## LeoRose

shepherdmom said:


> Bad temperment, risk of DM. Too young parents. I wouldn't want one of those puppies! I sure as heck wouldn't pay for one.


Then don't get one of them. 

The OP didn't expressly say that the male had a bad temperament, just that they were "not a fan of" his temperament. Heck, a lot of people wouldn't be happy with my GSD's temperament. Not because she isn't friendly, but just the opposite. She is friendly to a fault. 

There are thousands of deliberately bred BYB dogs out there from untitled, untested, too young parents. A goodly chunk of them are bred and purchased by people who don't even _know_ what DM or hip dysplasia is, let alone test for it.

If the OP is upfront and honest about the fact that this was an oops litter, and places the pups on limited registration, I don't see a problem with it.


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## selzer

I normally wouldn't buy from any oops litter, because I believe bitch owners ought to be able to manage their bitches, if they want to sell puppies. This litter does sound like it is not the fault of the owner. So, I wouldn't have any problem paying for one of these puppies. It is not going to produce DM -- that is a plus because usually people do not even test for that, so you can be pretty sure your pup will be clear of the disease. Plus. These are show dogs. That means both sire and bitch are decent specimens of conformation, and probably, they exhibit typical temperament of the show dogs. Unless there was some seriously close in-breeding between sire and dam, I wouldn't worry about purchasing a pup from the breeding.

Sire and dam are not too young to reproduce. They are too young to be certified free of hip and elbow dysplasia through OFA. Now, as for prelims. Yes, have the stud dog prelimed. Forget the bitch until after the pups are born. I probably would wait until they are weaned -- her system would probably be at a better place for the overall x-rays -- heat cycles/pregnancy can make the x-rays look looser than they normally are. A lot of people like to test 1/2 way between heat cycles. When the pups are 6-8 weeks, pre-lim her. 

If the dog is 12 months, he is not providing genes that are immature to the bitch. If the bitch is 18 months, she is not providing immature genes to the puppies. The puppies are not going to be doubly immature because of the age of the sire and dam. So, this really isn't a problem.

The pups are eligible for AKC. It is not the dog-pup-owner's fault this happened. She should get a stud fee, and she should then complete her part of the registration as the stud owner. If you trust the handler, then you can probably go ahead and register, calling him out as the one who facilitated the breeding. If you don't, then have the AKC to a dna test on the litter and stud dog.


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## Liesje

shepherdmom said:


> Bad temperment, risk of DM. Too young parents. I wouldn't want one of those puppies! I sure as heck wouldn't pay for one.


Assuming DM is a simple recessive, then no, this litter would actually *not* be at risk for DM. They will be clear or carriers, not affected. If you don't assume DM is a simple recessive (I don't) or put stake in the current tests, then this litter is no more or less at risk than any other.


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## onyx'girl

> The pups are eligible for AKC.


of course...money to be made for registering. Oops litters from a young dog with no health clearances. AKC registered really means alot, doesn't it?


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> of course...money to be made for registering. Oops litters from a young dog with no health clearances. AKC registered really means alot, doesn't it?


 I really don't know how it is around you. But around here, if you want to place your puppies in good homes, they had better have AKC papers. Limited? No problem, but if people do not care about papers, they are looking for a freebie, and will most likely dump the dog if it is inconvenient. 

Health clearances sound good, but they really do not mean that much. Having sire and dam with OFA good/normal, whoo hoo! can charge 12-1500, but at the end of the day, the puppies can still have issues, including hips and elbows. 

Having puppies from imported GSL or WL, doesn't matter, hip scores all the way up to the moon, does not mean that the puppies will be free of the issue. It doesn't work that way. 

If you are showing GSDs, you want to go to someone who is breeding dogs that are winning. You would expect to and like to see hip scores, but if you heard the story about the youngsters being bred while with the handler, than you can look behind them, and see if they were produced out of ancestors with clearances. 

Worst-case scenario, one of the breeding pair has an issue. That doesn't mean the pups -- any of them will. It just means that sire or dam had it. Dog is still an individual and may or may not be affected. 

What we have is showline breeders producing showline dogs out of animals that are good enough that a professional handler is willing to take them on, and try for a championship with them. The puppies should be whelped, should be raised, should be registered, should be sold -- not given away. 

This is done, it's a done deal. If the bitch is pregnant, then what SHOULD happen to these puppies? Given away at a WalMart parking lot for free? Is that what should happen to them? Should they be in some rescue or dumped by someone whose landlord doesn't allow pets??? When something is free or cheap, many people are not as willing to put money into it. Sorry, but I just find this to be true. Lots of people look for bargains, and they look for bargains on food, vet care, and everything else pertaining to the dog. When something happens and the dog needs something expensive, these people may or may not be in a position to provide it. 

I am sorry, but for the bitch, the best course is to whelp/raise the litter. At that point we have puppies on the ground, and all of us should want for them the best homes possible. They are no more likely to have issues than any other dogs currently being produced. AKC papers will give them a better chance at getting a good home. People will go with the bitch and dog being young, they will go with the DM carrier/clear, they will go with lack of OFA, but no registration papers means you probably have a dog that can't be registered -- bred on limited registration (for a reason) or not a purebred. No papers, no sale. Then the pups have to be given away, and then they are very lucky to get a good home.


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## LuvShepherds

It won't be the first time someone had an accidental breeding. If this handler is so well known and reputable I don't see how he allowed this to happen. Is it possible he has someone else working for him who was careless with the dogs and he doesn't want that to get out? The accident story through a crate, doesn't make sense.


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## wolfy dog

So will you share the puppy adoption payments with the handler?


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## onyx'girl

ugh, this scenario plays out more often than we want...oops litters from untested parents, yet they can be registered with AKC. 
This is not what I think the breed registry should be doing to keep the breed going in a positive direction. Sad....but $ is the motive. There should be some restrictions on litter requirements other than 'paid stud fee'.


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## Stonevintage

Seems like OP is not concerned as much with the litter, but her "future reputation" with the Dam. None of the remedies mentioned on the logistics of the "possible litter" address her concern????


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## wolfy dog

Stonevintage said:


> Seems like OP is not concerned as much with the litter, but her "future reputation" with the Dam. None of the remedies mentioned on the logistics of the "possible litter" address her concern????


I think it was addressed; "let people talk."


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## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> I think it was addressed; "let people talk."


I went back and looked, can't find "let people talk" (I must be going blind) can you give me the post # on that and her response? Thanks!


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## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> So will you share the puppy adoption payments with the handler?


 The risk to the bitch, an unwanted pregnancy in the middle of a bitch's show career -- the bitch owner is still the injured party here. 

Not an adoption fee. Whatever.


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> The risk to the bitch, an unwanted pregnancy in the middle of a bitch's show career -- the bitch owner is still the injured party here.
> 
> Not an adoption fee. Whatever.


That's what I was thinking. This owner had plans to finish the dog and "people talk" - it's a vicious tight competition from what I understand and this is large with the career. Personally, I would have consulted an attorney, not to sue but just to keep things from getting out of control and to get input how to keep impact on her career to a minimum.


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## wolfy dog

Stonevintage said:


> I went back and looked, can't find "let people talk" (I must be going blind) can you give me the post # on that and her response? Thanks!


Stone: My comment in the second post"let people talk and gossip whatever they want to".


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## dogfaeries

LuvShepherds said:


> It won't be the first time someone had an accidental breeding. If this handler is so well known and reputable I don't see how he allowed this to happen. Is it possible he has someone else working for him who was careless with the dogs and he doesn't want that to get out? The accident story through a crate, doesn't make sense.


Big name handlers typically have assistants working for them. Some of them are pretty young, and I could see something like this happening. Turning dogs out together that shouldn't be together. Yes, ooops. Could be that the handler doesn't have the full story, or does, and is trying to make it as right as possible for the owner of the bitch. 

If the bitch is pregnant, these aren't going to be BYB puppies, but puppies of decent quality. It takes some big bucks to send a dog out with a handler, and most people that can afford a name handler can afford a good dog. If this had happened to my bitch, I'd be honest about the ooops breeding while out with the handler, and just sell the puppies like you normally would. Limited registration for pet puppies. OFA everyone when you can, and hopefully all's good.


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## Cory

I just joined the forums and don't yet know how to quote multiple responders at once so please bear with me here while I try to respond to everyone in one post.

We will be keeping the sale fees for the puppies if she is pregnant. It is stress on our bitch, a huge inconvenience, we're raising the litter. My husband and I will have to take time off work to tend to the litter. It doesn't seem right that the handler would keep the fees for the puppies? He doesn't own the sire nor dam and he was profiting off of showing both. It is us that has been investing money into getting her finished.

To the person who said we don't said concerned with our bitch, please. If we were not concerned with her health we would have have just had the pregnancy terminated and had her right back on the road hoping to finish her CH by year end. Of course we're also concerned about our reputation. After an incident like this it can be very difficult to purchase another puppy should we ever choose, difficult to find studs, difficult if we ever wanted to lease a bitch, you get the idea.

Yes, handlers do have assistants. They have junior handlers apprentice under them. (For non-conformation junior=a handler under 18 that is learning to handle). They usually help groom the dogs, cover a dog in winners if needed, exercise dogs, etc.

It has been arranged with the stud owner that any potential puppies will be papered. And while I have concerns about the sires temperament, I do not believe these will be "throw away" puppies. Both sire and dam have exceptional pedigrees, full of american and canadian champions. As well as full pedigrees of OFA screened animals. They actually would probably be pretty desirable if this litter was planned.


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## dogfaeries

Cory said:


> And while I have concerns about the sires temperament, I do not believe these will be "throw away" puppies. Both sire and dam have exceptional pedigrees, full of american and canadian champions. As well as full pedigrees of OFA screened animals. They actually would probably be pretty desirable if this litter was planned.



That's what I thought. You know, fingers crossed that she isn't pregnant and you guys can get back out there and finish her. If not, you may well have some really nice puppies. And no your handler doesn't profit from this. You own the bitch. The litter is yours.


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## selzer

I think you are doing the right thing.

I do not understand how you reputation will be marred by this. You should be able to buy puppies in the future and show your bitch. Stuff happens. This one wasn't your fault, and, well, the show community will most likely find out both that your bitch had a litter, and how it came about. I wouldn't worry over much about that.

The thing to do now is to determine when to increase the nutrition to your bitch and by what. Bitches will often lose coat -- and I mean lose their coats during the weaning process. Otherwise, a thin young bitch might put on some weight and keep it. So that is good. But you are probably out a good six months of her show year by having the litter, though you could show her pregnant, I guess. Hard to say. Some do not show much. I would keep unnecessary stress to a minimum in the first 3 weeks, but after that, for the final six weeks, you can pretty much do whatever with her. But the last couple of weeks, she should be showing, so probably not showing. Still you might finish her during weeks 4 and 5 if you can get a show in???

It just depends on your girl.


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## Cory

We'll be keeping her home during her (possible) pregnancy. She only needs 2 singles to finish, but I don't want to put added stress on her right now. Also don't want to expose her to anything nasty she or puppies could pick up at a show. Not to mention we're kind of out of a handler at the moment lol


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## dogfaeries

Cory said:


> Not to mention we're kind of out of a handler at the moment lol


Yeah, that's a drag, especially if you liked your handler a lot. I wish I had a dog right now for my handler to show, LOL!

Congrats on just needing those 2 singles.


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## selzer

The first three weeks are the most likely for her to lose the litter, as they are not connected and can be more easily aborted naturally at this time. The rest of the pregnancy, is pretty much go as normal. In fact, she could do well with some good exercise -- lots of walking. I wouldn't school her over hurdles, but the whelping process is strenuous, and she needs good musculature and good stamina, to make whelping as easy as possible. 

Good luck on the upcoming litter, and congratulations on needing just the two singles left.


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## RubyTuesday

> From what I know of this puppy his temperament is really not that great. Now I only know this puppy from what I can see at shows, but what I see in that environment I do not like. He appears to be dog reactive, and on more that one occasion I have seen him be excused from the ring for reasons such as cowering away from the judge.


This is truly an undesirable temperament, particularly in a well socialized dog that's actively being shown. I'm not quite sure why that fact is being sugar coated & brushed aside.

Cory, if your bitch is pregnant & you're determined to continue the pregnancy, please inform potential puppy buyers about this. It's not a dog I'd want a pup from regardless of lineage or his ancestors' accomplishments in the ring. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. And please, do all you can to ensure puppy buyers spay/neuter the offspring.


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## cliffson1

Ruby Tuesday


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## Doc

Has anyone looked at the pedigrees?


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## WateryTart

I am really, really sorry this happened to you. What a mess!


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## Jameson23

any updates ? Is she pregnant ?


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