# What is " lower drive German Shepherd?"



## cliffson1

I often see perspective owners and occasionally breeders that describe the dogs they want or breed as " lower drive German Shepherds ".
What does that mean? Does it mean that the dog is calm all the time? 
I always thought " drive" was an action, usually in conjunction with a basic characteristics of the breed.(i.e. Food,Sex, pack, defense, prey, etc)...
SO what is a lower drive German Shepherd?


----------



## thegooseman90

I think what they're looking for is a pet type dog who will be less maintenance. Meaning they'll be happy with less exercise and they don't need a job. A higher drive dog would be too much for them to handle for one reason or another because they can't give him the proper exercise and work and ultimately the dog is bouncing off the walls, tearing stuff up, etc because it's frustrated. 

Drive, when I think of it, is a desire to act on a certain instinct. Prey drive as an example you gave is the dogs desire to chase or hunt something.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

for me when someone like JQP says "lower drive", they are looking for a dog with low energy ..I don't think people (JGP) know the difference between 'energy' and 'drives'...I see all the time people say "my dog is high drive he'll go all day",,what they really mean is "my dog is high energy he'll go all day"..confusion between drives and energy


----------



## car2ner

What people should be asking for is a dog with clear calm drives and a nice off switch. But honestly, more people need a dog just a little bit pushy to get them off of the couch and out for a good walk.

I agree that "lower drive" is confused with "lower energy".


----------



## Jenny720

Yes I agree it is often confusion. Not sure if there really is a low energy gsd either. Although there are different levels of energy. I suppose it's one's own personal definition of energy. Is why I went with a completely different breed when I had toddlers as my own energy was spent and focused elsewhere. Calmness to me is considered a nice off switch and somewhat self control/ inner obedience. Inner obedience- not taught- one example when we eat dinner Luna will go lay down out of site and not bother us regardless if she was ever fed from the table or not. Max is a food slob and will be always trying to get me to think he is practicing his focus exercises during meal times. Max has a great off switch just not as disciplined in certain things.


----------



## wolfstraum

Recently had a dialog with someone looking for a puppy closer to the west coast.

They apparently had plans to breed the dog (undivulged! but they already have a male) given the lack of GSD pet dogs in their area (having a male that was not high drive) and indignantly reacted to a female with limited registration.

They found a back yard breeder producing dog of mixed type - czech/WGR/AKC pet unknown combos - who was glad to sell them a lower drive female on open papers....

Another back yard breeder is on the way - and dogs who look like GSDs but whose personalities and drives are more similar to a Collie or Golden are produced for the pet market who don't want a dog whose character is defined as a working animal.


Sad....very very sad.



Lee


----------



## cloudpump

Drive is different than energy. I feel drive is the intensity at which a dog reacts to something. A lab, or a golden can be high in drive. 
When you research about German Shepherds you see drive all over the place. And that often is equated to energy, as opposed to actual drives.


----------



## carmspack

This is EXACTLY what I asked on the "Appleridge" thread

quote 

"the OP said "My search for a lower drive shepherd lead" .

What exactly does that mean?

From what I see is is increased energy that isn't satisfied because it can not be channeled into
something useful. 
That is not what defines a working breed."

You look for "lower drive" because you don't want a dynamic dog with aptitude and capability for work .
Instead you end up with a dog not bred for drive , for balance , for that off switch .

There are breeders using "lower drive" as a niche , for pets -- and are proud that the dog doesn't have drive -
but it doesn't have potential either . Not the "total package" that a GSD should be.
Instead they have dogs with energy to spare and lack of focus - a charming (annoying) perpetual puppy-brain, never quite maturing .

Breeding for it deliberately - market niche --


----------



## JnK

As with all aspects of ownership, whenever a breeder talks to a prospective owner about drives, I think that is a great time for them to educate...a "teachable moment" if you will.

I am guilty of asking for exactly the same thing myself...I think I said I didn't want an "ultra high drive dog". Because of my prior experiences interacting with poorly bred animals in the past. As it was pointed out, I think what I was really asking for was a dog that I can successfully maintain having little experience truly working a dog. 

What "drive" means for me has changed in my short time as a GSD owner thanks to a little bit of education. I'm not afraid of the word like I was before. It doesn't equate to a high strung hot mess of a dog that I thought it did. 

As it turns out, I absolutely love my dog's drive. I can get him to work for me for something simple like a rope. His eyes are on me and he is giving me focus I have never seen any any of my other dogs for a small toy. We both look forward to working together because it is so rewarding for both of us. I don't think we would have as much fun if he didn't have the drive that he has...what is the point of a dog like this that isn't at least somewhat driven? Is the owner looking for a lawn ornament?

Now, all of this doesn't mean that I necessarily want a dog that _has_ to be working all the time either. So I also agree with the idea of pet owners wanting an "off switch"...that was something multiple people told me was present lines I ended up getting and it has proven to be true thus far and I'm happy for it. It should work out well for the personal goals I have set for us going forward and working together as a team.


----------



## carmspack

well said JnK !
" It doesn't equate to a high strung hot mess of a dog that I thought it did. 

As it turns out, I absolutely love my dog's drive. I can get him to work for me for something simple like a rope. His eyes are on me and he is giving me focus I have never seen any any of my other dogs for a small toy. We both look forward to working together because it is so rewarding for both of us. I don't think we would have as much fun if he didn't have the drive that he has...what is the point of a dog like this that isn't at least somewhat driven? Is the owner looking for a lawn ornament?

Now, all of this doesn't mean that I necessarily want a dog that has to be working all the time either. So I also agree with the idea of pet owners wanting an "off switch"...that was something multiple people told me was present lines I ended up getting and it has proven to be true thus far and I'm happy for it. It should work out well for the personal goals I have set for us going forward and working together as a team."

by co-incidence , and the young lady might be reading this, I was contacted over the phone by a person wanting a lower drive dog -- literally minutes before this thread popped up.
What JnK said is what i said to her.

I've seen the "lower drive dogs" that are put out by some breeders -- they lack desire to work with - need manipulation to motivate them , yet , they might have an abundance of energy .


----------



## ausdland

A dog that doesn't care if a ball goes bouncing by, if a squirrel runs by or isn't ravenous to eat.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

We've had GSDs for 30 years, and I still don't know if Halo is actually HIGH drive, or just _higher _drive than our previous dogs! That determination, IMO, requires some experience or at least the observation of dogs with various levels of drive, and the average pet owner simply doesn't have that perspective. 

When deciding to get her, our first WL shepherd, I was concerned that she might be too much dog for me. And she was a challenge at first, until I figured out what to do with her drives. We have a great local trainer that helped us channel them appropriately, but I can definitely relate to people being intimidated by the concept of a high drive dog, and not really understanding what that entails.

Keefer is an old fart now, but he was drivier in his youth than our previous dogs had been up to that point. Even at nearly 12 years old he still has lots of energy and enthusiasm, although obviously not the stamina that he used to. In that sense Halo wasn't THAT different, although she's got a work ethic that goes beyond anything he ever had. And she's actually lazier around the house than he is. Her off switch is amazing, she can turn it on an off like flipping a light switch, which is pretty cool to see. I love her drives, her focus, her intensity, her love of training, and her passion for her sport. :wub: Her crafty intelligence is a constant source of amusement too. Those wheels in her brain are ALWAYS turning, lol.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

ausdland said:


> A dog that doesn't care if a ball goes bouncing by, if a squirrel runs by or isn't ravenous to eat.


Well, by that measurement, Halo is ULTRA high drive! She is obsessed with balls, would eat until she exploded, and goes batcrap crazy at the squirrels in the backyard. :rofl:


----------



## duenorth

Once you've learned how to work with a dog's drives and train that way - whether it's using food or toys or whatever is the motivator - I think it becomes much more challenging to work with a dog that IS lower in drive. First-time owners who want a low drive GSD don't know what they're missing. Granted, there's a learning curve to working a dog correctly in drive but when you see them light up with joy and anticipation, it's absolutely worth it. There's nothing like a working dog that loves to work.


----------



## lhczth

A dog without drive would be a dog that has no interest in working. What a sad thing to happen to a GSD. 

This is how I look at it when I am choosing a dog to work Vs. one that could work yet will fit in fine with an active family. I, personally, want to own animals that DEMAND to work. They can settle, they can deal with mom not being up to working them that day, but they are pushy and would find other things to do if their minds were not utilized in some ways. The pups I put into active pet homes want to work, but don't need to work. They are happy just chasing a ball, hanging with the kids in the back yard, going to games, running with dad or going on a nice hike on the weekend. For those people who want a dog with no desire to work, they need to find another breed.


----------



## holland

wolfstraum said:


> Recently had a dialog with someone looking for a puppy closer to the west coast.
> 
> They apparently had plans to breed the dog (undivulged! but they already have a male) given the lack of GSD pet dogs in their area (having a male that was not high drive) and indignantly reacted to a female with limited registration.
> 
> They found a back yard breeder producing dog of mixed type - czech/WGR/AKC pet unknown combos - who was glad to sell them a lower drive female on open papers....
> 
> Another back yard breeder is on the way - and dogs who look like GSDs but whose personalities and drives are more similar to a Collie or Golden are produced for the pet market who don't want a dog whose character is defined as a working animal.
> 
> 
> Sad....very very sad.
> 
> 
> 
> Lee



Umm...goldens were bred to hunt and Collies were bred to herd....both of those things in my opinion are working-goldens are not couch potatoes...not sure why every gsd person says people who shouldn't own a gsd should get a golden drives me crazy-some of them should go get a golden and post back


----------



## ausdland

holland said:


> Umm...goldens were bred to hunt and Collies were bred to herd....both of those things in my opinion are working-goldens are not couch potatoes...not sure why every gsd person says people who shouldn't own a gsd should get a golden drives me crazy-some of them should go get a golden and post back


? Best avalanche rescue dogs


----------



## SamsontheGSD

Some dogs are more chilled out than others. Compared to our last girl (Trouble), who would run/chase for hours on end Samson is chilled out. That doesn't mean he doesn't have prey drive, is lazy, or doesn't need a job. It just means he prefers/requires less than Trouble did. She just never stopped no matter what you did. Although at nearly 7 months we're seeing some changes in Samson.


----------



## cliffson1

I saw a sable WL dog that was a guide dog for a visually impaired person....would that be a contradiction?...Was that a low drive dog? I have read on this forum those type dogs are not for pet people.


----------



## cdwoodcox

carmspack said:


> I've seen the "lower drive dogs" that are put out by some breeders -- they lack desire to work with - need manipulation to motivate them , yet , they might have an abundance of energy .


 Misguided random acts of terror energy. The dog has no focus in the sense of purpose.


----------



## Love4gsds

*Drive*



cliffson1 said:


> I often see perspective owners and occasionally breeders that describe the dogs they want or breed as " lower drive German Shepherds ".
> What does that mean? Does it mean that the dog is calm all the time?
> I always thought " drive" was an action, usually in conjunction with a basic characteristics of the breed.(i.e. Food,Sex, pack, defense, prey, etc)...
> SO what is a lower drive German Shepherd?


I'm getting a lot of static from folks in regards to my saying I am looking for a lower drive GSD. And suggesting I should want a golden. I see in the adult world there are still bullies on the playground. 
I had my first GSD when I was 8 years old. I trained her in obedience and tracking. I did not show as I was a child in WV whose parents did not have the knowledge or the means for this. I have had 5 others since then. I have first hand witnessed the evolution of the GSD. I realize I may not be as educated and versed in all the politically correct terms and am not an "Expert" on today's Gsd's and all the types and sub-types as all of you fine people. I do deserve to be able to have a "well bred" healthy GSD for a family companion with proper exercise, stimulation and nutrition that is not so "driven" and "intense" that goes for anything that moves, is intent on "eating" other pets or animals within the family and is so aggressiive you have to muzzle to go to the vet, or crate to invite folks into your home, or so separation anxiety ridden you have to crate them for their safety to leave your home without them, and one you can't take into public because of their fear and aggression towards everything that moves. 
To me that is a lot of what is available today. To me that is not what a German shepherd is. I would hope there are kennels who breed Gsd's for family companions that don't charge thousands and thousands of dolllars. I hope I just haven't found them yet. All the GSD's in rescues that I have found are listed as " not for homes with children or other pets because of their intensity or lack of socialization. I know first hand that some Gsd's no matter how much training, socialization and exercise are just neurotic. Bad breeding, I get that, and unfortunately for the Gsd's it is all to common. 
Sooo, I will quit asking for referrals to breeders with lower drives and am asking for breeder referrals to kennels with "well bred GSDs" with appropriate drives and temperaments to be great family companions.


----------



## Jenny720

Why would a Gsd a guide dog for the blind be low drive? There is alot of focused channeled energy needed. The dog needs to be clearly focused in its job and a strong work ethic. Not hectic. I can imagine a highest threshold to. I would think the same for a service dog. Is there really Gsd with low drives? When I hear low drive I think of my chihuahua. Hardest little guy to obedient train he tries his hardest. Easiest dog to own at the same time.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Love4gsds said:


> I'm getting a lot of static from folks in regards to my saying I am looking for a lower drive GSD. And suggesting I should want a golden. I see in the adult world there are still bullies on the playground.
> I had my first GSD when I was 8 years old. I trained her in obedience and tracking. I did not show as I was a child in WV whose parents did not have the knowledge or the means for this. I have had 5 others since then. I have first hand witnessed the evolution of the GSD. I realize I may not be as educated and versed in all the politically correct terms and am not an "Expert" on today's Gsd's and all the types and sub-types as all of you fine people. I do deserve to be able to have a "well bred" healthy GSD for a family companion with proper exercise, stimulation and nutrition that is not so "driven" and "intense" that goes for anything that moves, is intent on "eating" other pets or animals within the family and is so aggressiive you have to muzzle to go to the vet, or crate to invite folks into your home, or so separation anxiety ridden you have to crate them for their safety to leave your home without them, and one you can't take into public because of their fear and aggression towards everything that moves.
> To me that is a lot of what is available today. To me that is not what a German shepherd is. I would hope there are kennels who breed Gsd's for family companions that don't charge thousands and thousands of dolllars. I hope I just haven't found them yet. All the GSD's in rescues that I have found are listed as " not for homes with children or other pets because of their intensity or lack of socialization. I know first hand that some Gsd's no matter how much training, socialization and exercise are just neurotic. Bad breeding, I get that, and unfortunately for the Gsd's it is all to common.
> Sooo, I will quit asking for referrals to breeders with lower drives and am asking for breeder referrals to kennels with "well bred GSDs" with appropriate drives and temperaments to be great family companions.


I think it is completely reasonable to expect to find a well bred GSD that will fit in with your family. I think the problem most people have with people looking for GSD with low drives is that many of those people (I am definitely not saying you!) really do expect to find a couch potato that requires no work. Many people expect to find a dog that looks like a GSD, yet has no aggression, no drive, no energy. That is what I think sends people into a tizzy. 

The best thing you can do in order to find a nice GSD to suit your needs would be to get out to some clubs (GSD or IPO) and observe. See if the dogs appear confident. Talk to the owners and the trainers about their dogs, what they are like at home, what they are like out in public. Ask if they are good with kids. Ask if they live with other animals, and how they get along with those other animals. If you find a GSD you really like, ask the owner where they got their dog. The internet is a nice place to get info, but really nothing compares to seeing dogs in person, away from their home environment, to assess what the dogs are really like. What one person here thinks of as lower drive, might still be too much dog for another. Actively going out to see a bunch of dogs is of course more time consuming, but it is much easier to see a dog and say "I want a dog like that" than it is to try to describe what you want. If you post your general location, perhaps someone can help direct you to a club at which you can observe. Best wishes in your search!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

lhczth said:


> A dog without drive would be a dog that has no interest in working. What a sad thing to happen to a GSD.
> 
> This is how I look at it when I am choosing a dog to work Vs. one that could work yet will fit in fine with an active family. I, personally, want to own animals that DEMAND to work. They can settle, they can deal with mom not being up to working them that day, but they are pushy and would find other things to do if their minds were not utilized in some ways. The pups I put into active pet homes want to work, but don't need to work. They are happy just chasing a ball, hanging with the kids in the back yard, going to games, running with dad or going on a nice hike on the weekend. For those people who want a dog with no desire to work, they need to find another breed.


I would describe my female as very much like the DEMANDING type that is described here first. She was always ready for more, always wanted more, sometimes more than I had and she was a working dog. She was outstanding at her job, never let me down.

The second type, the want to but don't need to, is how I would describe my boy. And I love him, he is just what I wanted. He has never not thrown himself 100% into anything I asked of him and impressed me, but if I don't ask anything of him he is pretty content to just fool around in the yard with his cuz toys. I don't think he is ever happier than when it's time to go to work at something, but he's much more go with the flow than she ever was.


----------



## WateryTart

GypsyGhost said:


> I think it is completely reasonable to expect to find a well bred GSD that will fit in with your family. I think the problem most people have with people looking for GSD with low drives is that many of those people (I am definitely not saying you!) really do expect to find a couch potato that requires no work. Many people expect to find a dog that looks like a GSD, yet has no aggression, no drive, no energy. That is what I think sends people into a tizzy.


To piggyback on this, I have what I suspect people would term a low drive GSD. And yes, she's got a calm temperament. But her calm, level demeanor does not mean she has no energy. She's pretty much always ready to go when I want to, and she needs both physical and mental exercise to be satisfied. She isn't a couch potato!



GypsyGhost said:


> The best thing you can do in order to find a nice GSD to suit your needs would be to get out to some clubs (GSD or IPO) and observe. See if the dogs appear confident. Talk to the owners and the trainers about their dogs, what they are like at home, what they are like out in public. Ask if they are good with kids. Ask if they live with other animals, and how they get along with those other animals. If you find a GSD you really like, ask the owner where they got their dog. The internet is a nice place to get info, but really nothing compares to seeing dogs in person, away from their home environment, to assess what the dogs are really like. What one person here thinks of as lower drive, might still be too much dog for another. Actively going out to see a bunch of dogs is of course more time consuming, but it is much easier to see a dog and say "I want a dog like that" than it is to try to describe what you want. If you post your general location, perhaps someone can help direct you to a club at which you can observe. Best wishes in your search!


Absolutely. This is what I tell people in my area who say they want a dog. I direct them to our local club and tell them when and where they can see training classes. Going to shows is useful, too (most of the dogs bred locally to me are ASL). It is way better to go and see dogs and get familiar with a variety of dogs from a variety of kennels. You learn a ton about what you like - I love my dog and fortunately what I learned after getting her just confirmed what a good match we found, but it's never bad info to have.


----------



## Jenny720

WateryTart said:


> GypsyGhost said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is completely reasonable to expect to find a well bred GSD that will fit in with your family. I think the problem most people have with people looking for GSD with low drives is that many of those people (I am definitely not saying you!) really do expect to find a couch potato that requires no work. Many people expect to find a dog that looks like a GSD, yet has no aggression, no drive, no energy. That is what I think sends people into a tizzy.
> 
> 
> 
> To piggyback on this, I have what I suspect people would term a low drive GSD. And yes, she's got a calm temperament. But her calm, level demeanor does not mean she has no energy. She's pretty much always ready to go when I want to, and she needs both physical and mental exercise to be satisfied. She isn't a couch potato!
> 
> 
> 
> GypsyGhost said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best thing you can do in order to find a nice GSD to suit your needs would be to get out to some clubs (GSD or IPO) and observe. See if the dogs appear confident. Talk to the owners and the trainers about their dogs, what they are like at home, what they are like out in public. Ask if they are good with kids. Ask if they live with other animals, and how they get along with those other animals. If you find a GSD you really like, ask the owner where they got their dog. The internet is a nice place to get info, but really nothing compares to seeing dogs in person, away from their home environment, to assess what the dogs are really like. What one person here thinks of as lower drive, might still be too much dog for another. Actively going out to see a bunch of dogs is of course more time consuming, but it is much easier to see a dog and say "I want a dog like that" than it is to try to describe what you want. If you post your general location, perhaps someone can help direct you to a club at which you can observe. Best wishes in your search!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely. This is what I tell people in my area who say they want a dog. I direct them to our local club and tell them when and where they can see training classes. Going to shows is useful, too (most of the dogs bred locally to me are ASL). It is way better to go and see dogs and get familiar with a variety of dogs from a variety of kennels. You learn a ton about what you like - I love my dog and fortunately what I learned after getting her just confirmed what a good match we found, but it's never bad info to have.
Click to expand...

Luv4gsds- oops. My phone ate what I wrote basically yes to all of the above. I have two showlines asl and wgsl they are calm -have nice drives Luna is still a pup. Max can be more intense. Not hectic or hyper but needs his mind worked. So does Luna. Nice family dogs with enough fuel to do cool things with. I had a working line he was super calm nice drives and needed his mind worked and exercise no more or less then I have now energy wise -more serious incredibly disciplined but still a big baby inside. Today is raining all day and they kept each other with their new bark box they got delivered today. They could use an outing but not today pouring out.


----------



## carmspack

cdwoodcox said:


> Misguided random acts of terror energy. The dog has no focus in the sense of purpose.


exactly !


----------



## Kazel

Love4gsds said:


> I'm getting a lot of static from folks in regards to my saying I am looking for a lower drive GSD. And suggesting I should want a golden. I see in the adult world there are still bullies on the playground.
> I had my first GSD when I was 8 years old. I trained her in obedience and tracking. I did not show as I was a child in WV whose parents did not have the knowledge or the means for this. I have had 5 others since then. I have first hand witnessed the evolution of the GSD. I realize I may not be as educated and versed in all the politically correct terms and am not an "Expert" on today's Gsd's and all the types and sub-types as all of you fine people. I do deserve to be able to have a "well bred" healthy GSD for a family companion with proper exercise, stimulation and nutrition that is not so "driven" and "intense" that goes for anything that moves, is intent on "eating" other pets or animals within the family and is so aggressive you have to muzzle to go to the vet, or crate to invite folks into your home, or so separation anxiety ridden you have to crate them for their safety to leave your home without them, and one you can't take into public because of their fear and aggression towards everything that moves.
> To me that is a lot of what is available today. To me that is not what a German shepherd is. I would hope there are kennels who breed Gsd's for family companions that don't charge thousands and thousands of dollars. I hope I just haven't found them yet. All the GSD's in rescues that I have found are listed as " not for homes with children or other pets because of their intensity or lack of socialization. I know first hand that some Gsd's no matter how much training, socialization and exercise are just neurotic. Bad breeding, I get that, and unfortunately for the Gsd's it is all to common.
> Sooo, I will quit asking for referrals to breeders with lower drives and am asking for breeder referrals to kennels with "well bred GSDs" with appropriate drives and temperaments to be great family companions.


I see a lot of those negative traits you listed in the people breeding the 'pet GSDs'. This is because(the ones I see) they have no rhyme or reason to their breeding and breed the first two dogs that they can get together. When people ask why the dogs have no titles (or even papers) they respond with, "My dogs are pet dogs, so they don't need titles." I'm not saying you need IPO, but even just CGC or obedience titles or just something. shows you did at least something with the dog. That it is capable of being out in public and you can work with it. 

A good breeder regardless of 'type' should be breeding level headed dogs that don't do this, especially with the proper training and socialization. 

My dog Shelby has 'lower' drives and she also has fairly high anxiety. She is not easy to focus and it can be difficult to motivate her because she has fairly low drives, but very high energy.


----------



## Liffey

I didn't read all the replies, but I would say that I have a low drive GSD. He sleeps when I sleep, never wakes me up early, is happy batting around a deflated soccer ball in the back yard and generally is just a very easygoing mellow dog. That being said, we walk about 3-5 miles every day around the neighborhood with several trips a week to do other fun stuff. 

He never really destroyed anything as a puppy and even when we are in the middle of intense play (I let him jump up and grab my arm, feel free to yell at me) his "off switch" is readily accessible - stand still, and he lays in the grass with his tongue out. 

I have to say... he can also be "lazy" in our group training classes. He is not laser focused on me and doesn't really "burst" with energy. But I love it. It suits my equally calm personality. I can't picture him with the obsessive demonic stare of a competitive obedience dog but he is always paying some level of attention to me.


----------



## astrovan2487

From what I've experienced most people outside of dog sport do not know what an off switch is, I believe when they say they want a low energy or low drive dog they mean a dog with a good off switch that can settle in the house and be calm when it is time to be calm. 
It really is a shame it's not easier to educate people about different drives and how important a balance of those drives is when buying a puppy.
I have yet to see any breeders that breed specifically for pets that seem to know anything about pedigrees or understand drives/balance. I can bet that most of the dogs you are seeing listed for rescue as not for homes with children or other pets were dogs who's breeder's would say they are bred for pets. I highly doubt many of them are from working line or show line breeders.


----------



## LuvShepherds

I'm not sure why this has become a major issue for people. To me, a dog with extreme high drive is one that is very intense and has no off switch. When I looked for my most recent dog a friend who does SAR suggested I look for a dog with an off switch. I liked that concept. I ended up getting a WL dog from a breeder who insisted the dogs were medium drive. Compared to what? I was very clear, I wanted an energetic dog with an off switch, which is exactly what I got. But he is not medium drive. He is high drive but not over the top.. That is, a dog who will go go go but when I call him off, will Out. My private trainer even told me, this is not a medium drive dog. I am happy, though. I got exactly what I wanted. At first, I thought he might be too much dog for me but after working with a private trainer whose earlier career was with working line German Shepherds, we found the right methods for us and he has become the best companion. He loves to learn and work for me.

When I was looking, I also talked to a WGSL breeder who hesitated to sell me a dog when I told her what I wanted because "all puppies have energy." I never once mentioned energy to her, I was talking about drive. How can a breeder of GSDs not understand drive? Of course, I took her off my list, even though she had dogs related to my first WGSL who was an awesome dog. I decided it wasn't worth continuing the discussion.

I don't think there are any low drive German Shepherds. All GSDs have some drive. There may be less intense dogs, but there is natural drive in all of them.


----------



## kimbale

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm not sure why this has become a major issue for people. To me, a dog with extreme high drive is one that is very intense and has no off switch. When I looked for my most recent dog a friend who does SAR suggested I look for a dog with an off switch. I liked that concept. I ended up getting a WL dog from a breeder who insisted the dogs were medium drive. Compared to what? I was very clear, I wanted an energetic dog with an off switch, which is exactly what I got. But he is not medium drive. He is high drive but not over the top.. That is, a dog who will go go go but when I call him off, will Out. My private trainer even told me, this is not a medium drive dog. I am happy, though. I got exactly what I wanted. At first, I thought he might be too much dog for me but after working with a private trainer whose earlier career was with working line German Shepherds, we found the right methods for us and he has become the best companion. He loves to learn and work for me.
> 
> When I was looking, I also talked to a WGSL breeder who hesitated to sell me a dog when I told her what I wanted because "all puppies have energy." I never once mentioned energy to her, I was talking about drive. How can a breeder of GSDs not understand drive? Of course, I took her off my list, even though she had dogs related to my first WGSL who was an awesome dog. I decided it wasn't worth continuing the discussion.
> 
> I don't think there are any low drive German Shepherds. All GSDs have some drive. There may be less intense dogs, but there is natural drive in all of them.


Completely agree with this. I define drive as intensity, not energy. Will the dog keep performing its task, regardless of distraction or discouragement. My WL girl is high drive; when she is asked to do something she does it without stopping. That said, she has a great off switch and can be laid back when the situation warrants it. She is extremely toy and food motivated and would likely not lose focus on either if the world were falling down around her ears.

My WGSL pup, I wanted something with a bit less intensity. Having two high drive, intense dogs just didn't appeal to me and I wanted to experience the showline. I can already tell he's more medium drive, which is what I wanted. He's a ball of energy, which is good. I want high energy dogs because they marathon train with me and this little bugger will take Mac's place as my training partner which she gets too old for it (she's 9). 

But regarding drive, he's just not as intense as Mac was as a pup. He's more naturally relaxed. Still very food and toy motivated, almost to the extent of Mac, but he's more of a goober than she was (and that's a technical term). 

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


----------



## gsdsar

So I know it has been said, but I think it bears repeating that most people confuse the term drive with term energy. So someone may say they are looking for a "lower drive" dog, but what they mean is a lower energy dog.

I have seen plenty of dogs, evaluated plenty of dog that were said be VERY HIGH DRIVE, but they weren't, they were high energy. Always on the go, but with no purpose to their energy.

I also think the word drive has somehow morphed into meaning high 'prey/play" drive. And that becomes an issue as well. GSD should have and utilize multiple types of drive, prey/play, hunt,pack, defense. A dog can have a high prey drive, but very low hunt drive. So I think that we have a done s disservice by focusing so much on the "my dog will play ball all day long, he will jump off roofs to get his ball" But that same dog wont look for more than 5 second to find a ball that went into the brush.

In the SAR world, I typically look for a dog with a medium prey/play. A dog that really enjoys the toy and will do things to get that reward. But a deal breaker is a dog that wont look for that toy tirelessly. We have "tests" for SAR dogs. Throw the toy into heavy brush, hold the dog back for 30-60 second, turns them a around a few times, and then let them go. A dog will be washed if they dont go out and bust through brush and search and search for that toy. 

So I think we need to look at how we use the word to describe what we are looking for.

My boy now is an overall medium drive dog. medium prey, medium hunt, good pack, medium energy. He like to play and tug, he will search for a pretty good time for his toy, he revels in praise when working and is fairly low energy. All in all an easy dog to live with. He will bring me toys at innopportune times and push to play, he will fetch for a while, he enjoys being challenged and loves to nap on the couch. None of his drives are at a level that would make him a good SAR dog. But he is a great dog that is enjoying other forms of work.

If he is a 6 in drive, I would like an 8 for SAR work. That said, people stop and watch us doing obedience and Rally. He is fun to watch work, because when he is on, he is ON. He is a dork a lot of the time, be he commands attention. 

So to be honest and f using the words as I think thye should be used, a low drive would be pretty boring, they would have no desire to play, they would not want to work for their owner for anything. But that does not mean they would not be a busy dog.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Maybe, GSDSAR, but I had a dog with an extremely high prey drive who had energy but burned it off. However, if she fixated on a small animal, I could not easily pull her off, whether she was tired or not. I had her until she was almost 14. Her energy gradually gave out but her prey drive and fixation on small animals never did.


----------



## SamsontheGSD

Love4gsds said:


> cliffson1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I often see perspective owners and occasionally breeders that describe the dogs they want or breed as " lower drive German Shepherds ".
> What does that mean? Does it mean that the dog is calm all the time?
> I always thought " drive" was an action, usually in conjunction with a basic characteristics of the breed.(i.e. Food,Sex, pack, defense, prey, etc)...
> SO what is a lower drive German Shepherd?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting a lot of static from folks in regards to my saying I am looking for a lower drive GSD. And suggesting I should want a golden. I see in the adult world there are still bullies on the playground.
> I had my first GSD when I was 8 years old. I trained her in obedience and tracking. I did not show as I was a child in WV whose parents did not have the knowledge or the means for this. I have had 5 others since then. I have first hand witnessed the evolution of the GSD. I realize I may not be as educated and versed in all the politically correct terms and am not an "Expert" on today's Gsd's and all the types and sub-types as all of you fine people. I do deserve to be able to have a "well bred" healthy GSD for a family companion with proper exercise, stimulation and nutrition that is not so "driven" and "intense" that goes for anything that moves, is intent on "eating" other pets or animals within the family and is so aggressiive you have to muzzle to go to the vet, or crate to invite folks into your home, or so separation anxiety ridden you have to crate them for their safety to leave your home without them, and one you can't take into public because of their fear and aggression towards everything that moves.
> To me that is a lot of what is available today. To me that is not what a German shepherd is. I would hope there are kennels who breed Gsd's for family companions that don't charge thousands and thousands of dolllars. I hope I just haven't found them yet. All the GSD's in rescues that I have found are listed as " not for homes with children or other pets because of their intensity or lack of socialization. I know first hand that some Gsd's no matter how much training, socialization and exercise are just neurotic. Bad breeding, I get that, and unfortunately for the Gsd's it is all to common.
> Sooo, I will quit asking for referrals to breeders with lower drives and am asking for breeder referrals to kennels with "well bred GSDs" with appropriate drives and temperaments to be great family companions.
Click to expand...

The key for you is a good breeder to match you up with a puppy that fits. Our breeder knew we wanted a family pet, would get a CGC certificate, maybe do some tracking and possibly therapy work. It turned out that one of her more calm puppies was coated, which is a fault, and made the price more reasonable. Not all of the puppies in the litter would have been a goid fit, but Samson was. Remember, not every pup in a litter is the same. There will be different levels of intensity throughout the litter. You just need to find a good breeder.


----------



## gsdsar

LuvShepherds said:


> Maybe, GSDSAR, but I had a dog with an extremely high prey drive who had energy but burned it off. However, if she fixated on a small animal, I could not easily pull her off, whether she was tired or not. I had her until she was almost 14. Her energy gradually gave out but her prey drive and fixation on small animals never did.


You can have a dog that has both high prey drive and high energy. They are not synonymous is what I am getting at. To be perfectly honest, its not a dog that I would enjoy owning. But to each his own. I am also not a fan of the current trend in crazy high prey drive. I just dont like it. I like moderate prey/play, high biddability and moderate to high hunt.


----------



## LuvShepherds

gsdsar said:


> You can have a dog that has both high prey drive and high energy. They are not synonymous is what I am getting at. To be perfectly honest, its not a dog that I would enjoy owning. But to each his own. I am also not a fan of the current trend in crazy high prey drive. I just dont like it. I like moderate prey/play, high biddability and moderate to high hunt.


I see, I didn't quite understand what you meant at first. My friend's SAR dog has a definite off switch. That is one calm dog, but with very strong focus and will not give up. I intentionally did not get another dog with high prey drive.


----------



## ausdland

gsdsar said:


> You can have a dog that has both high prey drive and high energy. They are not synonymous is what I am getting at. To be perfectly honest, its not a dog that I would enjoy owning. But to each his own. I am also not a fan of the current trend in crazy high prey drive. I just dont like it. I like moderate prey/play, high biddability and moderate to high hunt.


It's tiring but makes for a great tracking and soon to be search dog.


----------



## Xeph

I want to know where people get the idea that service dogs are low drive. They are most certainly not. It requires a ton of focus, clearheadedness, and nerve strength to do what these dogs do.

What I have learned is that drive is 100% subjective and it depends entirely on who you ask as to what is what. As far as I'm concerned, Strauss was a high drive dog with a great off switch.

Other people would have called him medium or low drive. Still others would have called him extreme.

What I know is that he was the right fit for me, but describing what I want to others has not gotten me what I wanted, because it's completely subjective. It's the same for energy. One person's high energy is another person's lay about.


----------



## cliffson1

I thank everyone for their opinions on what " low drive " is. I definitely learned that most GS folks understand drives through their opinions defined more by likes and lifestyles. 
Thanks, again.


----------



## Xeph

*shrugs* That's just the reality. Most things are going to be defined by likes and lifestyle

I don't think there's any quantitative way to measure drive beyond "Yes it's there, no it's not". After the "yes" or "no" answer, it's subjective.


----------



## carmspack

Xeph said:


> *shrugs* That's just the reality. Most things are going to be defined by likes and lifestyle
> 
> I don't think there's any quantitative way to measure drive beyond "Yes it's there, no it's not". After the "yes" or "no" answer, it's subjective.


that is a really sad state of affairs then . 

there most certainly are quantitative and qualitative ways to measure what drives are developed in an individual and as a general view of the breed.

that was the original intent behind the sch h / ipo trials - or some work application .

testing of the drives was so important that there was a bar or standard to meet prior to permission to breed.

this is a working breed.

drive is to GSD as lightbulb is to lamp.


----------



## carmspack

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
You can have a dog that has both high prey drive and high energy. They are not synonymous is what I am getting at. To be perfectly honest, its not a dog that I would enjoy owning. But to each his own. I am also not a fan of the current trend in crazy high prey drive. I just dont like it. I like moderate prey/play, high biddability and moderate to high hunt.

ausdland replied
It's tiring but makes for a great tracking and soon to be search dog.


now this is an area that I have a great deal of experience with .

my answer is not really . 

I also think it comes down to a resistance to testing for aptitude and understanding drives necessary and recognizing when you are seeing them . 
Instead of looking for inherent drives , people test for motivators .


----------



## WateryTart

carmspack said:


> that is a really sad state of affairs then .
> 
> there most certainly are quantitative and qualitative ways to measure what drives are developed in an individual and as a general view of the breed.
> 
> that was the original intent behind the sch h / ipo trials - or some work application .
> 
> testing of the drives was so important that there was a bar or standard to meet prior to permission to breed.
> 
> this is a working breed.
> 
> drive is to GSD as lightbulb is to lamp.


A better way to describe it might be that it seems easier to measure drive in a relative sense versus an absolute. Intangibles are often easier to measure that way. Either you measure the dog relative to other dogs, or you measure the dog relative to some agreed-upon standard or rubric.

I think some people confuse "quantitative" with "absolute" and they are not synonymous.


----------



## WIBackpacker

carmspack said:


> *I also think it comes down to a resistance to testing for aptitude and understanding drives necessary and recognizing when you are seeing them . *
> Instead of looking for inherent drives , people test for motivators .


Interesting.... is this "resistance to testing" something you can elaborate on? I'm not sure that I'm understanding.

I don't have experience in a lot of venues mentioned on this thread. I have watched dozens (maybe over a hundred by now) of dogs evaluated for livestock work, and it's pretty clear - either the dog has raw potential and instinct, or it doesn't. The lightbulb goes on, or it doesn't. Attempting to throw some sort of other "motivator" into the scenario wouldn't do any good, it would be silly or confusing. Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding.


----------



## carmspack

WIBackpacker said:


> Interesting.... is this "resistance to testing" something you can elaborate on? I'm not sure that I'm understanding.
> 
> I don't have experience in a lot of venues mentioned on this thread. I have watched dozens (maybe over a hundred by now) of dogs evaluated for livestock work, and it's pretty clear - either the dog has raw potential and instinct, or it doesn't. The lightbulb goes on, or it doesn't.
> 
> super LIKE .
> 
> and then you say
> " Attempting to throw some sort of other "motivator" into the scenario wouldn't do any good, it would be silly or confusing. "
> 
> and yet that is exactly what is being done. What a backward way of doing things.
> Makes for more effort , more management and less information about the genetic ability to
> transfer a trait across the generations.
> 
> and then you say
> "Though, perhaps I'm misunderstanding.


No - you do understand!

you cut short the wording which should have been "a resistance to testing for aptitude "

testing for aptitude -- not testing for the motivator - totally different things


----------



## carmspack

I have no idea why the above post showed up the way it did . It shouldn't be in the grey block.

got things to do - will expand on this later.


----------



## cliffson1

Xeph said:


> *shrugs* That's just the reality. Most things are going to be defined by likes and lifestyle
> 
> I don't think there's any quantitative way to measure drive beyond "Yes it's there, no it's not". After the "yes" or "no" answer, it's subjective.


I do think there are quantitative ways of assessing drives, but in America most prioritize that behind likes and lifestyle. 
Though I think it's important, eventually everything runs its course, and I feel the same will occur within the breed. 
In meantime, everyone should enjoy their dogs, and their likes?.


----------



## Dotbat215

cliffson1 said:


> Though I think it's important, eventually everything runs its course, and I feel the same will occur within the breed.


I think that might be the crux of these discussions about the future of the GSD. Many want to preserve the breed, but at what cost?

Many breeds no longer exist today...I am sure in their heyday someone loved them and thought they were the ultimate dog. But I think when a breed is created for a purpose and then that purpose becomes less popular or goes away then the fanciers have to adapt or potentially watch their breed disappear....and maybe that is okay. If a certain breed is at it's happiest flushing out badgers and then all the sudden they can't do that any more and owners have no desire to own badger flushing dogs then maybe it's best to let the breed dissipate rather than forcing a dog to live an unhappy existence. 

Just my thoughts, anyway.


----------



## cliffson1

Dotbat215 said:


> I think that might be the crux of these discussions about the future of the GSD. Many want to preserve the breed, but at what cost?
> 
> Many breeds no longer exist today...I am sure in their heyday someone loved them and thought they were the ultimate dog. But I think when a breed is created for a purpose and then that purpose becomes less popular or goes away then the fanciers have to adapt or potentially watch their breed disappear....and maybe that is okay. If a certain breed is at it's happiest flushing out badgers and then all the sudden they can't do that any more and owners have no desire to own badger flushing dogs then maybe it's best to let the breed dissipate rather than forcing a dog to live an unhappy existence.
> 
> Just my thoughts, anyway.


Aha.....I see things going the other way.....As the time goes on I think we will see two things occur. 1) The areas of performance whether it is sport or work will be dominated by the WL type. Already, I see the highest percent of AKC obedience dogs coming from either WL or GSL. In SAR, the same, if you notice whenever you see guide dogs for visually impaired currently....they seem to be WL also. These are things that are not going to evaporate because society needs the working dogs. 2) I think you are going to continue to see increase in health issues, ( physical or mental) in some lines, and a corresponding decline in popularity in those types from JQP. As these health issues permeate society, I think many people are going to choose another breed as they weigh their likes with their pocketbooks for issues of chronic conditions, behavioral interventions, etc. OR they are going to seek the type of GS that they see in AKC obedience or service, or types that have reputations for LESS health and temperament issues.
I could be wrong, but I see the numbers continuing to dwindle in some lines, and the numbers steadily increasing in other lines. 
So I am optimistic for the breed in the future, this is a resilient breed, and I think the adjustments by JQP will be positive for the resilient lines.
But, I could be wrong.......,


----------



## cdwoodcox

Dotbat215 said:


> I think that might be the crux of these discussions about the future of the GSD. Many want to preserve the breed, but at what cost?
> 
> Many breeds no longer exist today...I am sure in their heyday someone loved them and thought they were the ultimate dog. But I think when a breed is created for a purpose and then that purpose becomes less popular or goes away then the fanciers have to adapt or potentially watch their breed disappear....and maybe that is okay. If a certain breed is at it's happiest flushing out badgers and then all the sudden they can't do that any more and owners have no desire to own badger flushing dogs then maybe it's best to let the breed dissipate rather than forcing a dog to live an unhappy existence.
> 
> Just my thoughts, anyway.


 This made me immediately think of the bulldog. Once a fierce bull fighter, now not so much. Some wanted to let the breed die out. Others wanted to preserve the breed and now they are something with a slight resemblance to their original self.


----------



## lhczth

Dotbat215 said:


> I think that might be the crux of these discussions about the future of the GSD. Many want to preserve the breed, but at what cost?
> 
> Many breeds no longer exist today...I am sure in their heyday someone loved them and thought they were the ultimate dog. But I think when a breed is created for a purpose and then that purpose becomes less popular or goes away then the fanciers have to adapt or potentially watch their breed disappear....and maybe that is okay. If a certain breed is at it's happiest flushing out badgers and then all the sudden they can't do that any more and owners have no desire to own badger flushing dogs then maybe it's best to let the breed dissipate rather than forcing a dog to live an unhappy existence.
> 
> Just my thoughts, anyway.


I have seen what has happened to the other working breeds as breeders tried to change them to fit with society. Most are very sad representatives to the once great working breeds they were. With great working temperament also comes everything else that makes/made these breeds what they were. Now they are just hollow shells of once great breeds. I would rather the GSD were to die out than to see that happen.

I, though, agree with Cliff. There is still a great need for our breed as a working dog and, as some breeders attempt to destroy that heritage to appease an ignorant market, more buyers will flock to those still breeding and preserving the GSD as a working dog.


----------



## Xeph

carmspack said:


> that is a really sad state of affairs then .
> 
> there most certainly are quantitative and qualitative ways to measure what drives are developed in an individual and as a general view of the breed.
> 
> that was the original intent behind the sch h / ipo trials - or some work application .
> 
> testing of the drives was so important that there was a bar or standard to meet prior to permission to breed.
> 
> this is a working breed.
> 
> drive is to GSD as lightbulb is to lamp.


But I'm not talking about what drives are there and what are developed. I'm talking about how people view those drives in terms of "High" "medium" and "low"

We frequently see people requesting a "high" or "low" drive dog. What that means varies wildly.

Drives being THERE is not a measure of how high or low they are.


----------



## cliffson1

I really don't think the word " drive" or high/low drive is in the standard, so I never understood people's fascination....much as show/ working line is also NOT in the standard( that's why I rail so much against line designation).....it's all really creations of people's " likes and lifestyles IMPOSED on the breed. The standard clearly delineates WHAT a German Shepherd should be and is!.....Either you are breeding for the total dog as close to the standard as possible or you are negatively impacting the breed no matter how noble your intention in your own mind( unless you created the breed or wrote the accepted standard) 
This breed should be defined by what it is and not what BREEDERS or CONSUMERS like or want. 
So when I see SL/WL in standard, I will accept it, the same as I feel about breeding for high/low drive....it's not the measure of the drive, but rather if the drives bred for allow the pups to have the potential to fulfill the standard.


----------



## Hineni7

I agree with what you are saying cliffson1.. I think it gets murky when we try to describe what we are seeing in the dog to someone else. Then, someone wants or doesn't want what they see and regurgitate the verbiage to a breeder (talking about the beginning of the given word be it drive, or whatever) and the breeder (if not a good one) breeds for that niche.. Soon, you begin to see that verbiage in the marketing ploy and there you have it. Perhaps an oversimplification, but it does begin with us trying to explain what we see and whether we like it or not. We all know there are pups in each liter that have a more tenacious spirit and job oriented from the get go, and others more laid back and need to be drawn out. The savvy breeder places each pup with the right home (hopefully) that will aid in the pup having a great life and the family having a great dog. How does the buyer describe he wants a 'pet' dog, but may do IPO (I read this alot).. They usually mean a 'medium drive' dog, has an off switch (another term we use) etc. You don't have to breed for the 'medium drive' dog, some will appear in a litter, but we describe it that way so we as humans can grasp what they are looking for... 

Which cycles back to the crux of the problem... A GSD is a GSD.. Drives and all.. We shouldn't tailor make the breed into what is profitable lest we destroy what is loved so dearly... What a quandary


----------



## Xeph

I live in reality. I'm really wanting to move past worrying about who I am disappointing or not disappointing by the breedings I do or the direction I want to go with my program. Somebody's gonna hate it no matter what I do.

Part of reality is realizing that if breeds/breeders don't adapt to the world that exists, then the breed goes extinct.

Everything's a mess really, and the options are power through, or let it all die out. We can dislike the separation in the breed all we want. It's still here. It's not going anywhere. 

I highly doubt that any ethical breeder feels they're breeding against the standard.


----------



## carmspack

for the sake of discussion then 
"Part of reality is realizing that if breeds/breeders don't adapt to the world that exists, then the breed goes extinct."

or changes to something beyond recognition -- being a "member" of the breed in name only. It is a facsimile . There is no assurance to someone getting what they need when they are looking for the distinct breed specific characteristics which generated the whole thing to begin with.

then what is the use of it all , it is a sham . It isn't real . It isn't extinct - it is morphed . 

Perhaps fewer people should be looking to own a gsd - because they don't value what they should or could be .
The breed was never one for everyone .

Cliff said 
"the standard clearly delineates WHAT a German Shepherd should be and is!.....Either you are breeding for the total dog as close to the standard as possible or you are negatively impacting the breed no matter how noble your intention in your own mind"

Clearly. 
Which dogs in our age exemplify this ?

Cliff also said
".much as show/ working line is also NOT in the standard("

Not written -- but there always has been an understanding promoted by the powers that be . The Martin brothers exploiting a vulnerability within the breed brought on by its own popularity , which was present from the beginning.
"Special" breedings done to satisfy the well heeled . Vanity owners who would stroll around with their prick eared fireside wolf like dogs. 

The dogs are divided and judged by unspoken disparate standards.

Hochzucht and leistung . 
Selective refined breeding and performance.
Neither one able to compete or be appreciated in each other's venues.

Two breeds?
and then the American bred version --- Three breeds?

The SV rides on the legendary performance . Just watch any promotion and you may catch a minute or two worth of some (usually sable) dog springing into heroic action - and then the rest is the parade of the "hochzucht" .

One written standard . They don't look like one another . They don't act like one another .


----------



## cliffson1

I appreciate everyone's input. I deal in reality also. I choose to develop my likes and direction in the breed based on the complete standard. I think Carmen makes a good point; in that my lifelong journey has been to breed/promote the type of dog that the standard says a perspective owner/buyer/user expects to receive, when they base their desire to get GS on what the standard says the breed should be and can do. Heinei is right that pups in litter will vary, and good breeder will place pup with home that reflects why person is acquiring the dog. Yet, still the ethical breeder, imo, will never breed for one aspect of the breed at the expense of other aspects of the breed. 
This has been my journey in the breed. That folks when they get a dog from me, the dog closely reflects what the standard say this dog should be....and I feel that is ethical.....because it's really not about me....in my opinion, but the breed.
Ps ....these are my thoughts for me and are not in response to any individual but for the edification of perspective newbies.


----------

