# Untitled parents?



## kyle6367 (May 15, 2014)

Hey everyone,
So I am looking for my first pup, and have a question. There is a breeder I am looking into who has a litter due around November. The breeder was very nice over the phone, and spent alot of time going over everything. The thing is neither parent has any titles to their name after looking them up. They do come from working lines as some dogs in the family tree on both sides do have titles. 
My question is would you have any hesitation in purchasing a puppy from parents without titles? The dog will be mostly a family dog, but I would like the option to work him in the future. Any suggestions would be great!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have purchased dogs from titled parents, dogs from non titled parents, and rescues.

It would depend on a couple things for me, health testing being a biggy, what health testing has the parents had? For me, it would also depend on the dogs involved and behind them..

Can you pm a pedigree/website? I'm not an expert, but can give you my opinion.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

If there is the possibility of working the dog at some point, I would not buy from untitled parents that I did not know. Just my .02


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Health testing would be my biggest concern, but I would want to know why the parents didn't have titles. Some experienced breeders have valid reasons for breeding untitled dogs (occasionally). Breeders who NEVER title their dogs, though, are another matter entirely- to me personally, it says they don't want to invest the time or money and don't know their dogs as well as someone who has been through the paces with them. Of course, then you get into folks who import already titled dogs, etc.... so it's kind of a rabbit hole. 

It's not a deal breaker, I'd just want to know why.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree with wanting to know why.

Personally health testing is my biggest concern but titles are my second - I want a dog from a breeder that knows their dogs inside and out. Health testing and titles are huge stepping stones 

Do look at the types of tiles as well, some carry more weight then others


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

^^^ What they said.

My female's sire is not titled, but I know why. I have seen him work a bit in person to help confirm.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I will be breeding an untitled female (OFA and show rating and temperament tested)...she was worked and because I had severe injuries which pretty much put me out of commission for two years due to a car accident she did not get titled. BUT I titled her mother and her grandmother....she is 5 so needs to be bred. 

That is much different than someone who is breeding untitled dogs, from untitled dog and has not titled anything in the family.

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I just put $$ down on a pup from untitled parents. The only reason I found the litter initially was a Youtube clip of some Bitework. The breeder has titled dogs in the past and also has dogs working in LE. That plus the vids were enough for me to take the dive.
What I dont like are fanciful stories that have no provable basis in reality, show dont just tell.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Best dog I've ever owned was from untitled parents. The dogs had the bloodlines I wanted. They were health tested. The guy just thought Schutzhund was stupid. Lol good enough reason for me. I saw his dogs work in person and was sold. 

Health testing is the most important. Titles are great but not a deal breaker. I've met ipo3 dogs that should never ever be bred. I've seen titled dogs that the judge had have to been blind on trail day. Your best bet is get someone knowledgeable to go assess the parents for you.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A lot of times when you see that the titles end with the current generation, its basically the "breeder" purchasing good dogs from other breeders and throwing them together without doing the work to prove those actual dogs. You'll still have all the names on the pedigree, you can talk about how the grandparents have all those titles, but you yourself don't have to actually title.

They'll mostly sell to people like you who are "looking for a pet" by selling you on the fact that the dog will make a great pet, and clearly the lines can work if you ever want to do a sport of some sort. But you still don't know that for sure.


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## DynamicDogLover (Jul 5, 2014)

I may have some good leads for you... when you say you want a dog who can work, how do you mean that? GSDs "work" in different fields.


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## lawhyno (Mar 9, 2013)

*Titles don't mean much these days...*

I've seen titled parents that aren't worth anything and untitled parents that are top notch dogs. 

In my opinion, this is how you choose:

1. Research the pedigree. See what type of dogs you like. Czech lines? East German? DDR? West German? Show? Though some are similar, they all have their own unique characteristics. Pick which you like and know what you're looking at in terms of pedigree. 

2. Meet the breeder, parents of pups, and pups. DON'T make the mistake of believing the breeder and buying without seeing. You need to see the temperament of the parents because chances are, you're pup will grow to be similar. You need to meet the pups and see what they're like. Are they outgoing and friendly? Or are they suspicious of strangers and guard dog material? If you're not experienced enough to know these answers, you'll have the opportunity to ask questions in person to the breeder and gauge whether you're lied to or not. 

3. Find a reputable breeder who KNOWS their dogs. It took me a while but I found two breeders who I trust completely. The gentleman I got my dogs from knew his dogs so well that everything he said about them have come true. 

At the end of the day, I got my male from a reputable breeder and both his parents aren't titled but he's the best dog I've ever owned. Naturally protective, cuddly around the house, obedient, and very very drivey on the field with hard and calm bites. I met pup and both parents and knew this was the dog I wanted.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

martemchik said:


> A lot of times when you see that the titles end with the current generation, its basically the "breeder" purchasing good dogs from other breeders and throwing them together without doing the work to prove those actual dogs. You'll still have all the names on the pedigree, you can talk about how the grandparents have all those titles, but you yourself don't have to actually title.
> 
> this is exactly the situation that we got our 6 1/2 month old gsd from. We purchased him from an Amish man who had bought his dogs from a decently well known breeder who titles his dogs. Lobo's parents However did not have any titles, but his relieves further down the line had numerous titles to their name. We would NOT have been interested at all, if Mr. Glick had not done health testing on the parents. Both of Lobo's parents are OFA certified, and we wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> They'll mostly sell to people like you who are "looking for a pet" by selling you on the fact that the dog will make a great pet, and clearly the lines can work if you ever want to do a sport of some sort. But you still don't know that for sure.


This is also the mind set that our breeder had. He sold them as pets who could do more if you so desired. 

We met the puppies when they were 8 weeks old, and selected our new puppy. We got to meet both parents, and their temperaments are what truly sold us on getting one of there pups. They where we'll taken care of, obeyed a command the first time they were asked and we're gorgeous to boot. 

The bitch was mildly suspicious of the 5 strangers that were handling her pups but was in no way aggressive. During all of the excitement, the pups latched on and tried to nurse, but the breeder quietly whispered the dam's name and she immediately left the pups and sat at his side. We were very impressed. The father was let into the yard with us, and after his initial sniff of everyone, became a handsome goofball  we really loved both of the parents and picked up our new addition the following week.  it was 4 hours both ways, but Lobo is/was worth every mile.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

martemchik said:


> A lot of times when you see that the titles end with the current generation, its basically the "breeder" purchasing good dogs from other breeders and throwing them together without doing the work to prove those actual dogs. You'll still have all the names on the pedigree, you can talk about how the grandparents have all those titles, but you yourself don't have to actually title.
> 
> They'll mostly sell to people like you who are "looking for a pet" by selling you on the fact that the dog will make a great pet, and clearly the lines can work if you ever want to do a sport of some sort. But you still don't know that for sure.


(for some reason my other reply came up funny and part of my response was in the quote, and I cant figure out how to delete it  so I am going to try again.)


this is exactly the situation that we got our 6 1/2 month old gsd from. We purchased him from an Amish man who had bought his dogs from a decently well known breeder who titles his dogs. Lobo's parents However did not have any titles, but his relieves further down the line had numerous titles to their name. We would NOT have been interested at all, if Mr. Glick had not done health testing on the parents. Both of Lobo's parents are OFA certified, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

"They'll mostly sell to people like you who are "looking for a pet" by selling you on the fact that the dog will make a great pet, and clearly the lines can work if you ever want to do a sport of some sort. But you still don't know that for sure.[/QUOTE]" 

This is also the mind set that our breeder had. He sold them as pets who could do more if you so desired. 

We met the puppies when they were 8 weeks old, and selected our new puppy. We got to meet both parents, and their temperaments are what truly sold us on getting one of there pups. They where we'll taken care of, obeyed a command the first time they were asked and we're gorgeous to boot. 

The bitch was mildly suspicious of the 5 strangers that were handling her pups but was in no way aggressive. During all of the excitement, the pups latched on and tried to nurse, but the breeder quietly whispered the dam's name and she immediately left the pups and sat at his side. We were very impressed. The father was let into the yard with us, and after his initial sniff of everyone, became a handsome goofball  we really loved both of the parents and picked up our new addition the following week.  it was 4 hours both ways, but Lobo is/was worth every mile.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Sometimes life gets in the way for many breeders and thay cannot title a dog. If they just don't want to be bothered with putting the work into the dogs or they are simply buying titled dogs and breeding them without knowing the dogs and what they are capable of, that would be an issue for me. 

There are also some breeders that have other people title their dogs or ship them off to Germany for training and titling. I am not so certain that breeder knows the dogs either. 

My first GSD was a BYB. She was a great obedience dog. 

The breeder I got my Mayhem from does not put a lot of advanced titles on her dogs, life gets in her way. But she knows her lines. Many of her puppy buyers have put advanced titles on the dogs and are very sucessful with them. 

I used to be in the camp 'no titless- no buy' but I think that is not so important to me anymore. Breeder needs to know what they are breeding more so that titing I think.

Also need to make sure health testing is being done.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> *Sometimes life gets in the way for many breeders and thay cannot title a dog.* If they just don't want to be bothered with putting the work into the dogs or they are simply buying titled dogs and breeding them without knowing the dogs and what they are capable of, that would be an issue for me.
> 
> There are also some breeders that have other people title their dogs or ship them off to Germany for training and titling. I am not so certain that breeder knows the dogs either.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I can't really understand this. How can a breeder not have time to title a dog, but have the time to put into breeding/whelping/raising puppies? That concept will never make any sense to me.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I have a dog from untitled papered parents. However, I am in the minority in a very big way. I got very lucky because I am stubborn and my dog is not an investment per-se. She's a pet !! I invested in equipment, training, good food, supplements, but on a percentage basis the odds were stacked against me, (behind the 8 ball, snookered). 

My dog at 11 months, imo was a bargain. People here have paid 10X what I paid and perhaps got less > ? I have no clue and had no clue on hips, elbows, temperament and/or health. It was all put in God's hands from the first moment my wife and I saw a picture and held the dog.

But let's be realistic. I am in the 2%. 98% of dogs like Isabella are not even close to what she is.* Don't try this at home.* Do as much due diligence as possible and pay a little more, because you may not have the same luck..

Her training was appreciated today when she hit the "do do" target as a bulls - eye in her "poopy dog tray.". A plastic concrete mixing tub from Home Depot... Now, both are "tray trained.".. Good doggies !!! :wub:

SGCSG


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Alexis, sadly they are caring for aging parents now. Her husband is a minister ad she works full time. She trains and trials when she can and is working on titling 3 different dogs. Just finished 2 in the breed ring ring and one more needs one more point I think. 

Sometimes weekends are not our own and showing becomes a back burner issue.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Kopper is from untitled parents, but I did have the opportunity to meet both parents on multiple occasions and watch them at training. I have no regrets.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

I've got an WGWL untitled male. He is everything a GSD should be and I wish I could have another from his line as he is now old. He has a great pedigree and his parents are titled. He's not titled because he was trained in personal protection for the owner's personal use, rather than Schutzhund or another sport. He is so loving and level-headed, one would never know. I forget, myself! But don't threaten me. You won't win.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

GatorDog said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't really understand this. How can a breeder not have time to title a dog, but have the time to put into breeding/whelping/raising puppies? That concept will never make any sense to me.



Look at the reality of IPO in this country. The VAST majority of people interested in IPO have NO WHERE to train - there are clusters of clubs throughout the US - there are more clubs in Germany in a country which is smaller than the state of Texas - than there are in the whole US. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live close to a club with a good helper/program, not everyone has the resources or is healthy enough to drive 400 miles a weekend to train....some people have "paid their dues" so to speak and due to life changes cannot continue to spend every waking moment and available dollar on training. Add that to the insane drama and nonsense so heavily prevalent in this sport and clubs, along with the lack of GOOD helpers. Spend another dozen years in the sport and you WILL understand. 

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Look at the reality of IPO in this country. The VAST majority of people interested in IPO have NO WHERE to train - there are clusters of clubs throughout the US - there are more clubs in Germany in a country which is smaller than the state of Texas - than there are in the whole US. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live close to a club with a good helper/program, not everyone has the resources or is healthy enough to drive 400 miles a weekend to train....some people have "paid their dues" so to speak and due to life changes cannot continue to spend every waking moment and available dollar on training. Add that to the insane drama and nonsense so heavily prevalent in this sport and clubs, along with the lack of GOOD helpers. Spend another dozen years in the sport and you WILL understand.
> 
> Lee


Nothing but excuses.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Look at the reality of IPO in this country. The VAST majority of people interested in IPO have NO WHERE to train - there are clusters of clubs throughout the US - there are more clubs in Germany in a country which is smaller than the state of Texas - than there are in the whole US. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live close to a club with a good helper/program, not everyone has the resources or is healthy enough to drive 400 miles a weekend to train....some people have "paid their dues" so to speak and due to life changes cannot continue to spend every waking moment and available dollar on training. Add that to the insane drama and nonsense so heavily prevalent in this sport and clubs, along with the lack of GOOD helpers. Spend another dozen years in the sport and you WILL understand.
> 
> Lee



I still don't get it. I also have a full time job and I'm in between finishing up my college degree with plenty of life drama and I still find time to train and title my dogs. And driving up to three hours in each direction for the work that they need, I might add. 

I just don't understand the mentality that once you hit a certain "year mark" that you've done enough, and from that point on you don't have to follow the standards you once stuck by, or would expect someone else to.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

martemchik said:


> Nothing but excuses.



That is an insult and uncalled for. 

How many dogs have you titled? How many have you bred that have been titled? How many next generation of your breeding are titled? How many from your lines have gone to high levels competitively?

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

GatorDog said:


> I still don't get it. I also have a full time job and I'm in between finishing up my college degree with plenty of life drama and I still find time to train and title my dogs. And driving up to three hours in each direction for the work that they need, I might add.
> 
> I just don't understand the mentality that once you hit a certain "year mark" that you've done enough, and from that point on you don't have to follow the standards you once stuck by, or would expect someone else to.


Don't twist what I said. I never said I had done "enough" and was going to just go on breeding untitled dogs. 

I spent over 12 years driving 600-800 miles a week to train. I wore out a $40,000 truck and a $50,000 truck doing it. I spent every waking moment that I was not working training or going to training....and more than every available dollar! I was nearly killed in a car wreck, am severely compromised and cannot physically handle that schedule - or a big strong male dog....I fall down. Flat. Alot. Not an "excuse" - a fact. I just gave away the best male I ever bred - two of them actually - so that they could be titled. Because I personally am unable to do the work. I have two females out on co-owns because of the lack of a helper that I can get to. I am ALWAYS looking for training opportunities...I have not just "quit" because I did it for 15 years.....I would love to be able to move somewhere that there was good training available - but that is not just done with a snap of the fingers either. Jobs, mortgages, commitments that keep someone in the same place....

I am not condoning breeders who breed generation after generation of untitled dogs either. I am saying that there are many reasons that someone may choose to breed an untitled dog and that the big picture is what counts. What I find worse is "breeders" who just go out and buy dogs that are titled, breed litter after litter, never or only rarely keeping or titling any of those themselves. 

My point about the geography and availability of clubs, good helpers, and the drama and nonsense in clubs is indisputable. I know people who are 5 or 6 hours from a club...where it is impossible to go train - what they should starve to death because it would be a choice of buying food or gas to go train every week? I knew someone who was in that position at one point - she could not afford to even buy a $5 lunch at a trial....she slept in her truck at a trial. 

If you can afford to do this and you are young and healthy and strong enough and have a good helper - then count your blessings, and be a bit more understanding of the big picture and of other people's situations.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree that good clubs and helperwork is far and few between. And some breeders have families(or dogs they can't leave for whole days at a time), they can't just up and go train several hours away. 
Those that have clubs/helpers within an hour(s) drive should count themselves blessed(as well as trials that are happening spring and fall without having to get a hotel room, go for a whole weekend) 
Though, personally, I'd only buy a pup from an untitled dog if I knew the breeder was knowledgeable of the lines they were breeding and have produced well in the past, they also do train and represent....not a breeder just breeding to breed(or using a well known stud to market their pups).


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

IPO isn't that big at all here, as in I'd guess over half the breeders arn't breeding titled dogs. 

Vader's parents are not titled, but there is titles in the line mostly from when they were imported, and a majority of the dogs from the breeder end up as police service dogs and that anyway, so I more went with the breeders rep from people I know than any kind of titles.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You guys take these things so personally as if we talk about your breeding program when we're answering to a general question. I could care less why you do or don't title your dogs, at the end of the day, I won't buy a puppy from a sire or a dam I haven't watched work anyways. The theoretical discussion should focus on the fact that the MAJORITY of breeders who breed untitled dogs are doing so without any prior titling experience and is a major indicator of BYB. If I see a pedigree with no titles for 2-3 generations, I'll assume BYB and I would not recommend a breeder like that. I'd also never recommend a breeder I don't personally know or have seen at least a few dogs worked out of that kennel. I'm also in the huge minority that does have access to seeing dogs get worked and understand what I'm seeing when I see a dog work...the majority of puppy buyers have no idea what they're looking for and even if they can watch a dog get worked, it means absolutely nothing to them.

I love how some of you love to call others out for "insults" when you do the same. Calling someone out for not being old enough to have spent enough time in the sport, is getting personal, and completely uncalled for. So when you do that, I'll call you out for something that I don't agree with, and really don't care how it makes you feel.

Breed whatever you want, whenever you want, it doesn't affect me or my dogs in any way. If one of those dogs ever makes it's way to my club, I'll give it a good, unbiased, assessment, but it will probably never happen so I couldn't care less about what your breeding decisions are.

Also...I'm "wearing out" a $70,000 BMW driving back and forth to training, so do I win?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Maybe people should step back and reflect a bit and leave the personal stuff out of the posts. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## QballK (Nov 2, 2014)

> Also...I'm "wearing out" a $70,000 BMW driving back and forth to training, so do I win?


My wife spent my entire deployment money to drive to clubs and on her female Nala. I win!

And when I came home from deployment I totaled our Jeep and there was no money left to replace it. It's one of the reason why she quit with IPO. The money and time put into it, is not worth it. She bred two untitled dogs and the results are in the process of proving themselves in RH. 

It's not like she doesn't want to do it. But like Lee said, not everyone has the means to do it. She's spent my entire deployment pay. That is a lot of money and it wasn't enough to title a dog. For that money she could have imported two titled dogs and we would have money left over.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My feeling is...put your money where your mouth is. Titled, untitled, I don't care, I am not the breed police. But if someone tells me they want to get working line puppy specifically FOR IPO, then I would never understand WHY they aren't looking at breeders who breed titled dogs and are out there training and titling themselves. Same thing for any other sport or activity. It cracks me up when people advertise their litters as potential flyball dogs because they have a dog that would chase a tennis ball over the cliff (I'm not just talking GSDs here, but my feelings are the same regardless of breed or cross). Um, no, try actually DOING flyball for a few years and then tell me you know what dogs are going to be good and win. If someone wants a balanced pet that can settle in the house and interact with other people and other dogs....why go to breeders that have to kennel or crate-and-rotate dogs to keep themselves sane? This breed is so crazy popular, you can get what you want in practically any color, size, gender, and coat type if you just spend more than a few minutes actually looking. I don't buy it when breeders title a dog in *one* thing and think they can advertise their dogs as prospects for half a dozen other sports they've never tried. I mean, my own dog HAS titled in like 12 different things and I STILL don't consider him a top prospect at most of those. His best sport/working trait is absolutely tracking and scent work, which happens to be the one aspect of training that I enjoy the very least! (I like flyball, agility, and the obedience part of IPO).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not a bad argument Liesje , one comment on this " don't buy it when breeders title a dog in *one* thing and think they can advertise their dogs as prospects for half a dozen other sports they've never tried"

Response would be , the breeder also gathers feed-back from all the dogs that they produced that are out there in the big world. That becomes a basis for confidently saying what the potentials may be .
This is especially true for working dogs .
The breeder can't personally go out there and participate in the work . The feed-back can be as sharp as a knife cut.
Provide dogs that don't evaluate , don't perform and the opportunity to provide is slammed shut . The reputation follows through the network. Provide dogs of quality , and they are sought after , reputation follows throughout the network.

My bone to pick is new breeders with extravagant , hyperbolic advertising when they don't know , have not the experience , have not the record for themselves producing such animals.
The same goes for some breeders, topic of recent other threads , who breed niche market dogs, colour , DDR , or any other category -- don't work the dogs, don't title the dogs , have no dogs going out to work - in other words no stress-test testing of a claim (collapses on first load) and yet say dogs can be anything including specialized fields of work .


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Carmen, the difference is many breeders/bybs doing this have never *participated* in said venues of sport or work. Obviously someone that has trained and titled 35 SchH dogs over a period of as many years is going to get a lot more cred from me than someone who has never done SchH and is just buying titled dogs to breed. It goes both ways for me, experience and titles. That is what I said in my original post. When I wanted a SchH dog, I went to a breeder that was breeding titled dogs (mostly titled themselves) AND currently training and titling dogs. SchH is a lifestyle for them, not just letters on a paper or stud contract. The dog I bought was exactly what I asked for, easy to train in SchH. I no longer own him but he is multiple times SchH3, two of those earned at national competitions. But just because a dog is good for SchH does not mean he is going to be just as good at any other sport, or the traits that we desire for SchH are going to carry over. That goes for any activity. My dog is V rated and U-CH but I would never tell a prospective puppy buyer, "yeah his puppies would do great in the AKC conformation ring!" When people make statements without having any real knowledge or experience in the venue it feels somewhat disrespectful to people who put as much time an energy in that venue as others do in SchH. I will not debate which ones are "better" or more important for the breed (FWIW I still and will always believe SchH is the breed test), but from a buyer or "end user" point of view, it's not helpful to make assumptions that aren't true.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lets not kid ourselves and assume that the people breeding untitled dogs have had decades of experience and tons of progeny that have had success in either real working venues or Schutzhund or whatever other venue people have thought up these days. Most...are the terrible BYBs we talk about. Without a lot more knowledge or information about a breeder, a famous/known kennel name, the assumption should always be that these people are BYB and just throwing dogs together without wanting to take the time to train or title because they know they don't have to and they will sell the puppies anyways.

In regards to money spent...most people don't do Schutzhund in order to get a title and be "allowed" to breed their dog. To most of us, this is after all OUR hobby. We enjoy it just as much if not more than the dog does. So the cost, is just a cost of me enjoying my time and learning something about my dog. Which is something that is forgotten about training and trialing...the handler/trainer gets to learn about the dog, gets to find out its strengths and weaknesses. So it's less about the letters after the dogs name, and more about the knowledge you hope that breeder has gained about the dog in order to make a better pairing decision in the future.


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## lawhyno (Mar 9, 2013)

Police dogs don't have titles. Does that mean a Sch dog is better for breeding? Nope. When you see value in a dog, titles have no value. You'll find value in the type of dog that suits your needs and you don't need a title to tell you that. I've seen titled dogs produce duds.

What you need to know is what type of dog you want and how to find it. You need to know the breed. You need to find a breeder who knows their dogs and can set you up with the right fit. 

Stigmas are tricky. I know doctors and lawyers who are some of the socially stupid people I've ever met. It can be the same thing with dogs and titles. 

Most BYB don't know the breed. They don't know why they're breeding. Bottom line, they don't know their dogs. That doesn't mean they're all like that. I'm sure there's some out there that know their stuff. You need to talk to people and gauge if they know what they're talking about.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

lawhyno said:


> Police dogs don't have titles. Does that mean a Sch dog is better for breeding? Nope. When you see value in a dog, titles have no value. You'll find value in the type of dog that suits your needs and you don't need a title to tell you that. I've seen titled dogs produce duds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can't possibly say "titles have no value". I know plenty of police dogs that are garbage too.


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