# Best Line for Work?



## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

Which line would you use for Schutzhund? Any line available in the GSD world, even a mix.

You could use DDR, Czech lines, East German, West German, anything. Even a mix of lines, ie DDR x Czech or an East-West.

So which Line would you use for Schutzhund?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am currently working two dogs in the sport.

Stark (1/4 DDR 1/4 WG and 1/2 Showlines), is not an ideal dog for sport. 

Zefra (1/2 Czech 1/4 DDR 1/4 WG) is proving to be an ideal dog for sport or any work of any kind. 

If Zeffie continues on the path she is on, I would most definitely do this cross again.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Do you want to earn the title or do you want to be competitive on the national level?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Do you want to earn the title or do you want to be competitive on the national level?


Who me? Or the OP? (Sorry been a long day, not sure who this was directed at).


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Do you want to earn the title or do you want to be competitive on the national level?


I would like to hear your opinion if someone is interested in the national level?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Who me? Or the OP? (Sorry been a long day, not sure who this was directed at).


I was asking the original poster--we replied at almost the same moment.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Do you want to earn the title or do you want to be competitive on the national level?


I'm not sure yet I am just starting out with learning about shutzhund ect.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I am currently working two dogs in the sport.
> 
> Stark (1/4 DDR 1/4 WG and 1/2 Showlines), is not an ideal dog for sport.
> 
> ...


Would you say that the show lines 'softened' the dogs up? And reduced their drive?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have always been told that WG is the way to go if you want to go far in the sport. Not sure how true that is, but it's what I have heard.

I know Zefra and a few other dogs who are high Czech mixes seem a little too "real" for the sport world. I get told this all the time, she is only 5 months old but is already a very intense dog. I personally like that though.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

_Crystal_ said:


> Would you say that the show lines 'softened' the dogs up? And reduced their drive?


I have had a heck of a time with my male, we were really close to trying for his BH (he has been in schH since he was about a year, he is now 2.5 years old) but have had some motivation/focus/engagement issues as of late, again.

He has low-medium drive which is fine, I could work with that it's the lack of motivation/enthusiasm for working that is what is holding us back. I credit that to his showline side, yes.

I don't think he is a soft dog at all, no. Reduced the drive, definitely.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I have always been told that WG is the way to go if you want to go far in the sport. Not sure how true that is, but it's what I have heard.
> 
> I know Zefra and a few other dogs who are high Czech mixes seem a little too "real" for the sport world. I get told this all the time, she is only 5 months old but is already a very intense dog. I personally like that though.


On another dog forum I'm on someone who breeds working Shepherds noted that Czech mixes seem to have "Malinois like drives" which "lack an off-switch, which is why I breed DDR x Czech to create a reliable on and off switch dog" (quoted from him/her)

Honestly I'm leaning toward a DDR x Czech mix or a West German Line GSD, but I'm not sure if it would be good for work. [keep in mind this is not soon, and may be later in life, but I like to plan ahead, lol.]


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

FG167 said:


> I would like to hear your opinion if someone is interested in the national level?


It looks like there are some Czech dogs who are doing quite well at top levels of competition. They seem to have heavy doses of dogs from Belgian and German working lines, though.

If I wanted to be competitive, though, I'd probably go to a Belgian-German working combo, with maybe a dash of the right Czech bloodlines. 

A lot of Belgian dogs actually go back to DDR within a few generations (e.g., Nessel and Orry vh Antverpa --> Ingo Rudingen). And the Belgian dogs will give speed, athleticism, low thresholds, high trainability. The Czech will bring a bit of power, and the German will bring in... uhh... stuff. 

Speaking in the broadest of generalizations, of course.

I competed with my Nessel grandson and he was so much fun to train and compete with--so I may be biased a bit toward the Belgian dogs just for the purpose of high-level competition.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> If I wanted to be competitive, though, I'd probably go to a Belgian-German working combo, with maybe a dash of the right Czech bloodlines.
> 
> And the Belgian dogs will give speed, athleticism, low thresholds, high trainability. The Czech will bring a bit of power, and the German will bring in... uhh... stuff.


Hmmm, that sounds like _exactly_ what I have then  Along with the "stuff"


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> and the German will bring in... uhh... stuff.


Of course me being the most oblivious person on the earth, I must ask what "uhh... stuff" is.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The German dogs can bring in trainability and better basic conformation and steadiness of nerves and handler hardness as well as useful things like biddability and natural retrieving instinct. It all depends, of course, on what dogs and the individual parents. 

I am speaking in the grossest of generalizations, as I said.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

Okay, got it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a WG/Czech blend and his threshold is higher, he has an off switch, very biddable yet can turn on when needed. 
He isn't real flashy during obedience, but I blame that on me not bringing it out in him. 
He has hunt drive and tracks fine, but he tends to be on the suspicious side so does not 'tunnel vision' focus when he tracks.
He is a thinker, not a reactor unless he feels it is necessary. 
He has confidence on the protection field too, will work thru pressure and recovers easily. 
The whole litter was/ is pretty consistent ~stable nerves, other than my pup is about 20# heavier and 3" taller than his siblings(females) the other male isn't as big as he is, but they are basically the same as far as temperaments go.

For his size, he is extremely agile and will try any piece of equipment~playground ladder-slides/
A-frame/jump/tunnel/wall/teeter without hesitation. 
He loves the A-frame!
I prefer a blending of working lines, as long as the breeder knows what they are doing with the pedigree.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I have a WG/Czech blend and his threshold is higher, he has an off switch, very biddable yet can turn on when needed.
> He isn't real flashy during obedience, but I blame that on me not bringing it out in him.
> He has hunt drive and tracks fine, but he tends to be on the suspicious side so does not 'tunnel vision' focus when he tracks.
> He is a thinker, not a reactor unless he feels it is necessary.
> ...


Thanks for the reply


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am just getting started my self with Schutzhund so I am no expert. However my boy is Belgium / Dutch KNPV / West German Working and I couldn't be happier. He oozes drive out of every poor when we are working / training / playing but when it comes time to relax around the house he settles down quite nicely.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

_Crystal_ said:


> Which line would you use for Schutzhund? Any line available in the GSD world, even a mix.
> 
> You could use DDR, Czech lines, East German, West German, anything. Even a mix of lines, ie DDR x Czech or an East-West.
> 
> So which Line would you use for Schutzhund?


DDR and East German the same thing.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Go out and watch dogs work. Find a breeder that is breeding consistently for what you would like to do and go see their dogs working. You need to get a feel for what you can handle, what you want to train and what you want to live with. Many (not all) of the podium dogs in this country are mixes with Czech lines, but the world over maybe not so much. 

I personally like my west German lines, but might consider crosses with maybe a hair of DDR or Czech. They would have to be the right dogs and crosses, though.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Well - the Belgians have won alot of World Championships!

A good dog - and most good dogs - are blends of a dogs whose origins are few different European countries

Orry h Antverpa - LOSH with DDR behind him...his great grandson Eros - 2x WUSV winner - SV with LOSH sire! Tom, also a WUSV winner, and Eros son, Como - I think is either NSBH or LOSH...

So IMO - it is a dog who is a judicious blend of WGR, DDR, Belgian and Czech!!!

WGR SL generally NOT going to be a good mix - but at least one very sucessful National level dog does have a dab of showline in first 5 gens - most WGR dogs have the well known SL of the 50s/60s in 9-12th gens.....

VERY VERY few people go to a national level _successfully_ with their first dog....I know one! But really, titling your first dog is a big accomplishment and something to be very proud of!

Lee


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

> Go out and watch dogs work. Find a breeder that is breeding consistently for what you would like to do and go see their dogs working. You need to get a feel for what you can handle, what you want to train and what you want to live with.


Worth repeating, many times over. You can't predict what or even guess what your dog is going to be because it's "czech" or DDR or WG or anything else unless you go see the breeder, see the dogs and see the lineage and progeny.

I laugh everytime I read threads about these dogs are this and those dogs are that. All it is, is internet fodder for people to talk like they know something. 

Get out and work the dogs and really learn, don't just read about it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

What I wonder about of this kind of threads is... in how many parts you can disect working lines? How many pure Czech and DDR dogs are still out there? Can we really asset something based on if a dog is 1/4 or 1/8 east or west german?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

As Lisa says - go see dogs working...see dogs who are parents of dogs working in the sport...find out how those dogs live - kennel or as pets in the house - if you can see the dogs you like on the field, off the field in normal environments, that will help too! You need find out the temperament of the dogs you like, and if their parents are in this country - see/talk to people with their parents...their siblings - when you find a working dog whose temperament and looks you like - then look further into the sources of those dogs for a puppy....

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

_Crystal_ said:


> Would you say that the show lines 'softened' the dogs up? And reduced their drive?


I know this was not directed at me but I just wanted to comment because right now I am working/training two dogs and one is a WGSL male (all SL, not a cross) and he is my favorite dog to own, train, work. When I go out looking for new dogs I will be comparing them against this dog even long after he has left this earth. He is not a "podium dog", not crazy-fast or really flashy. But owning, training, and titling him has given me the opportunity to dissect what *I* really look for in a dog and the more I learn with him the more I realized that what I want seems to be a lot different than what most other people want even though we are all doing Schutzhund and a lot of the same sports and protection work. I see a lot of dogs these days that IMO could benefit from some "reduced drive" and have learned that you do not need an extreme dog in order to succeed and have a dog that is easy to train and live with. As far as German Shepherd dogs go I would consider my dog a medium drive dog with a medium to high threshold (as far as ALL breeds of dogs go I think a "medium drive" GSD ends up being more of a "high drive" dog overall).

My WGSL male is a pretty dang hard dog. I don't mean hard as in stubborn or hard-headed in the work, but he can take a buttload of pressure from anyone including myself and not shut down. I can use any training method I want with him and get the results I want. He is a pretty serious dog, he really does taking training seriously. He is attached to me and wants to succeed for me. Even using treats and clicker or methods some people think are silly actually work well for him because he takes his work seriously. Same thing with compulsion. He is a thinker. He can also be a bit of a jerk like he's trying to figure out what's in it for him, but I actually like that because he doesn't waste any energy. He's not going to run off a cliff for a ball or bark at a helper that's just dancing around waving a tug toy. Maybe he's a diamond in the rough but being a show line has definitely NOT softened him. Ask my helper, he will tell you the dog can take more than probably *any* other dog in our SchH club including the pure working line dogs.

I am not saying to get a WGSL or a cross, I'm just saying it's more about what dog YOU want than about what lines are good at this or that. There are some dogs I've met that have titles and accomplishments I could not dream of achieving and yet you could not PAY me to own these dogs. There are many dogs I see where I love the end result as far as how they perform their obedience and protection routines but if you think about the frame of mind the dog is in while working, it drives me nuts. You have to consider the whole picture. IT took me a few years to realize that some of the things I previously thought were "wrong" with my dog are things that I actually *want* in a dog and have grown to not only appreciate but seek out.


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## _Crystal_ (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks for the responses, learning a lot here.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

_Crystal_ said:


> On another dog forum I'm on someone who breeds working Shepherds noted that *Czech mixes seem to have "Malinois like drives" which "lack an off-switch*, which is why I breed DDR x Czech to create a reliable on and off switch dog" (quoted from him/her)
> 
> Honestly I'm leaning toward a DDR x Czech mix or a West German Line GSD, but I'm not sure if it would be good for work. [keep in mind this is not soon, and may be later in life, but I like to plan ahead, lol.]


I would say this is probably not an accurate statement. I think you're much more likely to find the "Malinois like drives" in West German Working, specifically Belgian lines.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I think you're much more likely to find the "Malinois like drives" in West German Working, specifically Belgian lines.


We have two dogs from Belgian lines and I feel they are both more Malinois-like in drive. Kastle is also very, very athletic and flings himself about like my Dutch Shepherd used to - which Ike does not do.


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## Mike69 (Jun 30, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I have always been told that WG is the way to go if you want to go far in the sport. Not sure how true that is, but it's what I have heard.
> 
> I know Zefra and a few other dogs who are high Czech mixes seem a little too "real" for the sport world. I get told this all the time, she is only 5 months old but is already a very intense dog. I personally like that though.


 
Hi, Elisabeth. What to you mean when you say that the "dogs who are high Czech mixes seem alttle too "real" for the sport world."? What do you mean by "real"? Can you elaborate.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm not Elisabeth, but when you're looking for a dog to compete in high level sport, you want a dog who loves the whole game. If they go into every protection session like it's a real fight, it's a lot of stress (as in cortisol levels surging and adrenaline racing). If the dog is thinking this is a real fight with a real threat, then it's going to be a bit harder to tweak the protection for higher points. 

I am not saying that a high point dog can't see the fight as a real fight or has to be only a prey dog, but if the dog only sees the fight as a true battle that must genuinely be won EVERY TIME, then outs and guards and heeling and blind searches (those things that make up the points) are rather extraneous to the battle.

So if a dog has an bit of an idea of the protection phase as a game--a boxing match rather rather than a fight for life--then it can be easier to go for high points.


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## Mike69 (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks for the elaboration. Not to get off topic, but do you think this is why some GSD people complain about Schutzund not being a true test of GSD character anymore because it's geared more for "sport" dogs, rather than being a test of "real" dogs as it was intended to be when it was first developed?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, it's part of it. But any time something becomes an highly competitive, it moves away from its foundations. 

I think that training schutzhund tells quite a bit about the dog. That doesn't mean that someone seeing that dog after the end of training knows what that dog is. But, truthfully, the same applies to almost any activity. 

If you are training your dog for the BH, you learn a lot about your dog. But that doesn't mean that having a BH tells someone who has never seen the dog very much. Same applies to the Sch1, 2, or 3.

So, perhaps the fault is in the concept of some test of behavior that can dissect and proof temperament and drive like a yes/no DNA test for an outside observer who never sees the dog?


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## Mike69 (Jun 30, 2009)

Thank you, Christine.


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