# My experiment; early prong use



## wolfy dog

From the very beginning I knew that Griff would be a tough but awesome one. I allowed him to be a pup first but did teach him respect and impulse control along with the recall and sit only (no stays or waits). And of course play time. Some leash walking on socializing trips and some at home (off and on leash) but pretty informal by using the clicker.
At 5 months old, it was time for more serious leash work. He already didn't pull but I knew what he was up to and I wanted to be just one step ahead of him. So, before he ever tried to pull, I walked him on a prong and used it when needed.
You may think that this was cruel as there wasn't a problem to start with. But....undoing is much harder than preventing. So now at almost 7 months old and in full blown adolescence, I can walk him on any collar and he walks as if he wears the prong. He never knew the alternative.
Will post some amazing progress in the next thread to stay on topic.


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## car2ner

Nice. We have to train each dog according to their personality. There is no hard set rule that we have to wait until 6 months old. It is just a good average rule of thumb. 
My gal-dog went from harness to prong at 6 months. Now at 2 years old she sometimes pulls but often I can hook the leash to just her martingale and she walks just fine. I may have her wear a prong without hooking it up to the leash. It is there if we get into a situation that requires extra diligence. Then I can swap the leash to include the prong collar. Most days she does fine without connecting to the prong. 

What exercises did you do to help teach impulse control and patience?


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## wolfy dog

car2ner said:


> What exercises did you do to help teach impulse control and patience?


Waiting for food, out the door, car, toys etc. Kinda like NILIF 101. Very simple things actually. If he wanted something , he had to show patience to get it. Waiting to get out of his crate was the biggest challenge until rodeo day came and now he does well.


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## Jpage24.87

Seeing as you've had past experience with prongs and how your pup may begin acting once adolescence hits, you used your best judgement. Stopping behavior before it begins is going to make Griff so much better, he won't get a chance to be rude. He'll only know his manners. I love it. We practice impulse control and patience A LOT. The worst for us was waiting to be released from the car. He still fights me a bit on that one.
Had I known the prong collar was going to change my confidence and Sitka's in me, I would have began using it earlier. To be honest, they terrified me. I was so afraid it would hurt my dog, and he'd not look at me the same again. I spent weeks watching videos, and reading on how to use them, and fit them. Man, was I right...Sitka looks at me totally different after the prong...He thinks I'm the best person on earth when that prong comes out. He get so excited, he tried to leap (nicely) into it. ?


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## wolfy dog

Jpage24.87 said:


> Had I known the prong collar was going to change my confidence and Sitka's in me, I would have began using it earlier. To be honest, they terrified me. I was so afraid it would hurt my dog, and he'd not look at me the same again. I spent weeks watching videos, and reading on how to use them, and fit them. Man, was I right...Sitka looks at me totally different after the prong...He thinks I'm the best person on earth when that prong comes out. He get so excited, he tried to leap (nicely) into it. ?


Good to hear! Yep, same here. As a pet dog trainer I even mentioned on my (past website) that prongs and e collars were not allowed. Until I got my WL guys. They taught me to be open minded.


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## Chuck94!

Yup Rollo wasn’t as good with Griff but I could tell I was getting lazy and bad habits would really be rehearsed so I started working with a prong on Rollo around 6 or 7 months! I spent time before teaching him about leash pressure so it’s bewn a great and gently tool for us as well


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## Jpage24.87

wolfy dog said:


> Good to hear! Yep, same here. As a pet dog trainer I even mentioned on my (past website) that prongs and e collars were not allowed. Until I got my WL guys. They taught me to be open minded.


Good thing we learned to be more open minded. I bet our dogs are glad for it too. ?



Chuck94! said:


> Yup Rollo wasn’t as good with Griff but I could tell I was getting lazy and bad habits would really be rehearsed so I started working with a prong on Rollo around 6 or 7 months! I spent time before teaching him about leash pressure so it’s bewn a great and gently tool for us as well


Sitka was about the same age, 7 months when I convinced myself to try a prong. This was after he dang drug me on my face after a kid on a bike. That was a done deal. We spent a good deal of time on leash pressure, then we went for a walk. I don't think I've ever had to correct him for anytime, pressure is enough to remind him he needs to fall back or pay attention. It's been a real awesome tool.


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## Chuck94!

Couldn’t agree more!


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## Aly

Sitting here, sipping my coffee and reveling in the wisdom of this thread. Here are the highlights for me: 

*From @car2ner*: _Nice. We have to train each dog according to their personality._ 

I just love this! It's the same principle that I was taught from childhood: _Deal with the dog in front of you._ Convoluted hypotheses about the dog's breed, sex or even history are often unhelpful. What matters is _what the dog in front of you is doing_ and how to best address it — with the least effort.

*From @wolfy dog*: _Waiting for food, out the door, car, toys etc. Kinda like NILIF 101. Very simple things actually. If he wanted something , he had to show patience to get it._

Brilliant! I just love this approach: Teaches self-control, in a non-confrontational language that dogs/puppies can easily understand. Bonus is that the reinforcers are built-in and virtually automatic (e.g., show patience and you get dinner). 

*From @Jpage24.87*: Stopping behavior before it begins is going to make Griff so much better, he won't get a chance to be rude. He'll only know his manners. I love it

I love it too; it's the same approach my old trainer taught me. "Make the good things/behavior easy and fun, and the bad things/behavior difficult and unpleasant." Saves time and effort down the road, and you get a joyful _partner _at the end. 

*From @Chuck94!*: _ Couldn’t agree more!_ 

I couldn't either. 

Thanks all, this thread was a lovely way to start my morning. 

Aly


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## car2ner

wolfy dog said:


> Good to hear! Yep, same here. As a pet dog trainer I even mentioned on my (past website) that prongs and e collars were not allowed. Until I got my WL guys. They taught me to be open minded.


I never need a prong until I got my boy. My sister, who did agility with BC and an Aussie mix, never used prongs and was dead set against them....that was until they day we let her walk our big-boy without the prong. Being the smart GSD that he is, he figured "new walker, no prong. I'm going to let her know I want to walk much faster". My sister's comment, "It's like trying to walk a horse" ! :grin2:


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## cloudpump

You're doing a sport with griff? 
There is a thing as too much control....prepping for future problems could also be squashing.


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## wolfy dog

cloudpump said:


> You're doing a sport with griff?
> There is a thing as too much control....prepping for future problems could also be squashing.


No sport assigned yet until he is reliable in his obedience and has shown me what fits him well. I think he will like rally or obedience (seems odd right now :grin2: ) I am not squashing him; just not putting up with his puberty antics. I wish more people would do that instead of having to solve behavior issues later.


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## LuvShepherds

I find when I rely on a prong, it’s very difficult to ever remove it. That limits sports and other activities a dog can do when he gets older. I’m glad it worked for you, but my plan with future dogs is to avoid ever using the prong.


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## wolfy dog

LuvShepherds said:


> I find when I rely on a prong, it’s very difficult to ever remove it. That limits sports and other activities a dog can do when he gets older. I’m glad it worked for you, but my plan with future dogs is to avoid ever using the prong.


The good thing is that he doesn't walk any different no matter on which collar now since he hasn't had the opportunity to pull. I thik you run that risk of being dependent on a prong after you use it to undo pulling.
I am curious to see if any of you with strong WL drive dogs have been able to 'get away' with just the clicker or any other 'positive training' only. I once asked this before and never got a response.
My GSDs are the only ones so far in all my 40 years of having had (well-behaved) various breed or mixed breed dogs that I used a prong with. I go by the dog, not by the method alone anymore.
I had the same plan as you, only to rethink it based on the dogs' drives.


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## tim_s_adams

I've never used a prong or a clicker. Just good old balanced training with lots of patience and persistence! To me, positive only training would be exhausting! Even though balanced training IS 97% positive, for me it just makes logical sense to convey when something isn't good, just like it makes sense to reward good behavior! It doesn't involve punishment, just steering. I don't get angry and I don't yell, but I do insist...


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## wolfy dog

Tim, how do you correct pulling if they do/did? What collars do you use?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Absolutely no prongs here, never, and my dogs don't pull on leashes. 

Heavy obedience, use of aversives, too much control and management tends to suppress a puppy and conflicts with confidence, motivation, energy and commitment in a pup.

Oh, and all of my dogs except for the showline are from breeders producing LE style dogs and high end sport dogs.

Most of the high level trainers I know of do NOT use any aversives for basic obedience, including prongs, all positive.


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## gsdluvr

Corrections followed by quick praise is often used.

My large male was a pain on the leash barking at dogs and stuff around 5 or 6 months. I had a bad knee and it was very uncomfortable correcting him. I used the prong the way Leerburg shows, letting them correct themselves then praising. It was an immediate change and walks became WAY easier.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Oh, and being overbearing and having too many rules can create rebellion and frustration issues down the road so one can't say that they are being proactive and setting a dog up for good behavior.


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## Steve Strom

> I am curious to see if any of you with strong WL drive dogs have been able to 'get away' with just the clicker or any other 'positive training' only.


You don't look to get away with anything. You focus on the behavior you're training. With a stronger, more determined temperament, you're going to reach a point in some things where the desire for _that_ over rides the desire for _this_. If its _this_ you're looking for, there's going to have to be a consequence if they choose _that_. Whatever that consequence is, has to be effective. Part of being effective means not creating conflict with you over it. If saying no works, fine. If a sharp pop on a prong is what works, that's fine too.


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## MineAreWorkingline

And often the verbal works well eliminating the need for a physical aversive but you have to try it first to find this out.


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## car2ner

I have no problem giving a dog a "correction". Even dogs give each other "corrections". The thing is to be fair. Don't punish any living being for something they don't know is wrong. Don't punish beyond what is necessary. That can shake confidence. But lets face it, flowers have thorns, skunks have stink, a dog has a warning growl, cats have claws. If you can teach a dog to walk by your side consistently without a prong, awesome. If you and your dog use it as a reminder of limits, great. If you want to eventually use a flat collar, awesome. If you need the prong as an aide for years, so long as you aren't cranking down on your dog all the time, no problem. And I think our dogs are smart enough to know that when doing a sport they have alternate things to do more interesting than simply walking on a leash. For instance when we are trailing, we have our leash hooked to a harness. They are busy working on following scent so there is no nonsense of running after cats, squirrels, or other dogs. When going for a walk in the neighborhood, that can get boring..."hey hey hey, that other dog is looking at me. I wanna go over there and test his attitude cause that could be fun....hey hey hey, that other dog is talking smack" and then a prong can be a proper tool to remind your dog, ignore the taunt. To be honest, I don't have enough energy to be more interesting than the dog barking smack across the street or the dumb bunny that runs right across our path a few feet away.


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## Steve Strom

I think most people tell their puppy no.


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## tim_s_adams

wolfy dog said:


> Tim, how do you correct pulling if they do/did? What collars do you use?


With my current pup I used a flat collar and a starmark pro training collar. With previous dogs, and other people's dogs, I've used Martingales and choke collars along with flat collars.

To teach my pup not to pull I used a combination of things. First I taught her the heel position off leash, then on leash. Initially when not in a heel if she started to pull I'd just stop and stay there for a minute or two (which she absolutely hated!). When out on a walk now if she begins to pull I give a sharp leash correction and tell her "don't pull". I give her two chances with that at most, if she continues I make her heel for awhile. It's not a punishment, but less fun than being free to sniff and wander. It's likely not as quick as a prong would be, but it's always worked well!

And just to be clear, I'm not anti-prong. I've just always been able to get the behavior I wanted without using one.


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## Steve Strom

Starmark pro training collar:



> Gentle & Effective
> Pronged, linked design is gentle but effective in enforcing pack leadership. Helps prevent pulling and lunging behavior. Has appearance of a flat collar.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

I prefer to train the dog in front of me. My last WL shepherd was hard headed, and very strong willed, when he was young he liked to pull. He didn't care about the prong, but he did care about pleasing. I used his desire to please to my advantage, once he figured out I didn't want him to pull that was what he wanted too. Gandalf is the opposite in some ways (and not WL really), all I have to do is give him a look, sometimes a word if he is misbehaving and he is like oh crap! And quickly corrects himself. He also prior to 6 months old had no issues pulling on a leash, and still doesn't. May be your pup Griff just doesn't have that type of personality? Not all shepherds like to pull :wink2: , you may be preparing for something that never happens anyways. I use a prong for rare instances, he is still young but we didn't put one on him prior to 6 months. I want to be in control in case if he gets a smart idea (i'm a small girl and hes huge). He hasn't yet. But I will be prepared if he does. Lately i've been using a martingale instead, I will phase the prong completely out soon. My WL shepherd during adolescence pulled my mom into a lake full of gators just out of the blue, he was wearing a harness. IF she had a prong on him I don't think that would have happened. He was testing the waters literally.


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## tim_s_adams

> Starmark pro training collar:
> 
> Quote:
> Gentle & Effective
> Pronged, linked design is gentle but effective in enforcing pack leadership. Helps prevent pulling and lunging behavior. Has appearance of a flat collar.



Yes, but it's gentler LOL!


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## GandalfTheShepherd

Steve Strom said:


> Starmark pro training collar:


I like that collar if you're going to go prong anyways on a young dog, they don't have as much bite as a prong.


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## Steve Strom

Its the dogs perception of it that matters.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Tim, I start all my training, including heeling, off leash as well. I know many others do too.
@Steve, I agree. When taught "no", I find puppies very responsive to it as well as yes and good.

Also, I am not against prongs when used appropriately. I just think better results are achieved with puppies when aversives are used after other less conflicting methods have been tried and failed. It works well for me and my working line dogs.


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## tim_s_adams

Interestingly enough I found the Starmark collar almost totally ineffective at getting my puppy not to pull. What did work for her is what I said earlier, stopping for a minute or three. I still use the Starmark though sometimes, because I bought it and I don't like wasting money LOL!


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## gsdluvr

Steve Strom said:


> I think most people tell their puppy no.


I like to “load” “no”. If the tone of my voice isn’t enough, then correction along with vocal until the association becomes strong enough to phase out the correction. Every dog is different.


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## wolfy dog

Never mind. This was a correction :grin2:


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## Steve Strom

gsdluvr said:


> I like to “load” “no”. If the tone of my voice isn’t enough, then correction along with vocal until the association becomes strong enough to phase out the correction. Every dog is different.


No has to mean something. Either you can't have something or like you're doing, here comes the correction. They obey to avoid the physical in that case.


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## Steve Strom

wolfy dog said:


> Never mind. This was a correction :grin2:


Hey, you just withheld a self rewarding punch line from me.


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## gsdluvr

Steve Strom said:


> No has to mean something. Either you can't have something or like you're doing, here comes the correction. They obey to avoid the physical in that case.


Yep. I don't just load it without having a "something" to load on. LOL!


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## selzer

Other people used prong collars with my pups, hopefully for training, but whatever. I bet if I surveyed them, they would strongly agree that a prong was an absolute necessity for their dog's personality. 

I on the other hand have trained 1-3 out of each litter (I am working on U), and several that came back, one sporting a prong collar at 18 months old. I took that piece of dookey off of him before I got him home, and he hasn't seen a prong collar since. 

For some reason, ALL of my dogs walk like they were trained on a prong collar. Or, like they were trained. They certainly did not get a lot of training from me, but they do not drag me around like a wuss. And the vast majority have never experienced a prong. Odie I think was trained with one before I got her, and Cujo definitely. 

They have energy, they have drive, they have personality, they can actually work, some folks are doing protection work with them, and one is called out by police departments for my dog to track and apprehend criminals. They are not shrinking violets. Because that is generally what people say when we have this conversation. 

A German Shepherd Dog is an intelligent dog with a built in desire/drive to work with an owner he respects. A dog does not need for you to physically dominate him in any way to earn your respect. Somehow mine respect me and I rarely admonish them even with my voice. I am not permissive. If I tell them something I AM she who must be obeyed. I follow through if I give a command, and they all know it. I have reasonable expectations for puppies at every stage. I love puppies. I love their exuberance and their personalities. I love figuring out how this one ticks. They are all different, but none of them need a prong. 

Maybe there are dogs out there that need them. I have not experienced one yet. I've had a lot of dogs. Still do. I think way too many people believe their dog needs it. I think they are actually harmful, in that too many people let the training go by the wayside because they have the pointy collar. If I couldn't manage to train a dog without a prong, I would be embarrassed. People here see it as a rite of passage. I find that really sad.


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## wolfy dog

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I like that collar if you're going to go prong anyways on a young dog, they don't have as much bite as a prong.


I use what works but do take the dog in account first. For now I have found a good balance between the prong for a correction once in a while and praise and very sometimes a treat. I am happy with the progress and the respect he shows me. By the way, I don't just use a correction blindly but I also give him a command so he will think of something else.


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## MineAreWorkingline

You are using a prong to get his respect?


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## tim_s_adams

Used correctly there's nothing at all wrong with using a prong collar, IMHO. I think it's much more important to be consistent in whatever you do with a puppy or dog. What really throws them is inconsistent behavior...and I see that alot! 

Be consistent, be calm, and even if you're not using the "best" training method known to mankind it will work! Dogs prefer clear, as in black and white! When you make that noise, and for them our language is all just noise, I do this thing and I get praise or treats! Got it! Change that up, and instantly you'll see their discomfort and confusion. Do that too frequently and you'll see them check out, or rebel in one way or another. Not rocket science...pretty cut and dried in most cases...


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are using a prong to get his respect?


I guess this is a rhetoric question? He only wears it on walks but hardly needs a correction. I also work in other ways on respect in daily life. He doesn't spend hours in a crate during the day so plenty of opportunity for that.. It's not 'prong or nothing'. And... I haven't mentioned that I also reward his good behavior, have fun with him in play and generally living with him and Deja. It looks like it is mutual so Griff is having a good life.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

wolfy dog said:


> I guess this is a rhetoric question? He only wears it on walks but hardly needs a correction. I also work in other ways on respect in daily life. He doesn't spend hours in a crate during the day so plenty of opportunity for that.. It's not 'prong or nothing'. And... I haven't mentioned that I also reward his good behavior, have fun with him in play and generally living with him and Deja. It looks like it is mutual so Griff is having a good life.


If at 6 months old (or is he younger?) he is pulling and you are having to CORRECT (thats why you put a prong on right?) I wouldn't call that a success at all. I can't say i've really had a pup pull hard prior to 6 months old or at all, Gandalf was way more interested in sticking by me. You said he doesn't pull on a regular collar either, but why does he even need the prong then? Sounds confusing and contradicting. Maybe work on regular leash foundation first, I always like the turn around method or circle if he is checking something out. Use those rewards when he focuses on you. At this age I would be using positive reinforcement more than when I would be as they get older. Make the experience of walking on a leash pleasant and engaging, pull out a tug and play if hes really sticking by your side and making lots of eye contact. Their attention span is so short at that age i'm not sure a pup would even make the connection between a pull and a correction on a prong? Save the big guns for when you need them!!!


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## selzer

See, I don't see a dog respecting an owner at all with a prong. They respect the prong. Many of them get collar-wise. You see it in obedience and Rally where you can't use them, the dogs get in the ring and act up, because they are ring-wise -- they have learned you cannot correct in the ring, or they are collar-wise -- the big boy collar is not on, so I can do as I please. 


I see more often a lack of respect when people are dependent on the pointy collars than respect. 


Respect comes from calm, confident, consistent behavior from the owner. Dogs respect calmness -- they do not like heightened adrenalin, they think that is crazy and dogs really do not like crazy, they certainly do not follow and respect crazy. Dogs respect confidence -- throw your heart over the jump and the horse will follow, same with dogs -- you make it so, by believing in yourself and acting as if you believe in yourself until you do believe in yourself. Believe me, that I was NOT a natural leader. I had to learn the hard way. I had to learn to be confident with dogs. I had an A-1 doofus, pulled like a freight train, stubborn dominant GSD that I hadn't a clue what to do with. He taught me a LOT. The next GSD was a quiet, sensitive bitch that could not take that strong handling. She taught me more. I had to learn confidence by practice and I NEVER would have gotten there if I was hobbled by a prong collar. And training is communication, communication is consistency. We give a consistent signal to the dog for which there is an action and a reaction, every time. We learn how to make that signal consistent, the dog learns the proper action for that signal, and we follow through with the reaction that provides more communication to the dog. Not rocket science. 


The problem is on OUR end of the leash most of the time, and putting the pointy end on the dog, in my opinion is not fair, and especially on puppies.


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## Steve Strom

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> If at 6 months old (or is he younger?) he is pulling and you are having to CORRECT (thats why you put a prong on right?) I wouldn't call that a success at all. I can't say i've really had a pup pull hard prior to 6 months old or at all, Gandalf was way more interested in sticking by me. You said he doesn't pull on a regular collar either, but why does he even need the prong then? Sounds confusing and contradicting. Maybe work on regular leash foundation first, I always like the turn around method or circle if he is checking something out. Use those rewards when he focuses on you. At this age I would be using positive reinforcement more than when I would be as they get older. Make the experience of walking on a leash pleasant and engaging, pull out a tug and play if hes really sticking by your side and making lots of eye contact. Their attention span is so short at that age i'm not sure a pup would even make the connection between a pull and a correction on a prong? Save the big guns for when you need them!!!


The problem is defining things as a "need" If you look at most things as a need, you'll risk making them dependent on it and then, yeah, you're going to need it. Its actually pretty easy to use a prong to ease pulling, even at 10', or even 33'. Use what you want, but use what works the easiest and clearest to the dog. Not using a prong isn't any kind of significant measure of anything. All it means is you didn't use a prong. 

If you train the behavior, the dog doesn't care what collar they have on. Do they know? Of course they know what you put around their neck. If they really know what you expect and have taught them, the collar doesn't matter anymore. 

Different dogs, different goals, differences in people.


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## wolfy dog

Griff never pulled before. I know these dogs and I didn't want to go backing up-going forward forever as it eventually led to a prong anyways. So I experimented with using it before I needed it (after the 5 month I believe so I didn't put a prong him as a tiny pup!) because I knew him. And no, he is NOT collar wise. I am happy the way he is turning out and he appears happy and well adjusted. This doesn't mean I will use this technique for any dog. I adjust the method to the dog. I have learned not to 'dogma-tize' methods.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Steve, I think the problem comes from it being said that the puppy never pulls but the prong is put on and used when it is needed. That is confusing. If the puppy never pulls, then why preemptively use a big boy aversive on a puppy for something that has not happened and may never happen? If the prong is for the possibility of pulling, and the puppy does not pull, then there should not be a time where the prong is used, right? Yet it is being said the puppy does not pull yet the prong is being used when needed. No pull, no need, right? So when, how, and why is the prong being used? What is the need that is requiring its use? Just trying to understand what the brag is supposed to be about, that's all.


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## Steve Strom

I don't think there's any bragging in the topic. I read it as introducing the collar so it will be more effective without conflict later on, if she decides to use a prong. Makes it easier to get a positive response. You can turn anything you want into a big boy aversive, or you can use it appropriately to teach something. Depends on you and the dog.


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## Pytheis

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Steve, I think the problem comes from it being said that the puppy never pulls but the prong is put on and used when it is needed. That is confusing. If the puppy never pulls, then why preemptively use a big boy aversive on a puppy for something that has not happened and may never happen? If the prong is for the possibility of pulling, and the puppy does not pull, then there should not be a time where the prong is used, right? Yet it is being said the puppy does not pull yet the prong is being used when needed. No pull, no need, right? So when, how, and why is the prong being used? What is the need that is requiring its use? Just trying to understand what the brag is supposed to be about, that's all.


I don't think this is a brag thread. It is in the Training Theory & Methods section. :wink2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

I guess the words amazing progress caught my eye. I am just not having an easy time understanding what this is about.


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## Steve Strom

Thats a different thread.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

@MineAreWorkingline that is exactly what I am having trouble grasping. What is this "amazing progress" with a puppy who doesn't pull yet is pulling "sometimes"? I don't see the benefit.


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## Nigel

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> @MineAreWorkingline that is exactly what I am having trouble grasping. What is this "amazing progress" with a puppy who doesn't pull yet is pulling "sometimes"? I don't see the benefit.


Steve sums it up nicely here...



Steve Strom said:


> I don't think there's any bragging in the topic.* I read it as introducing the collar so it will be more effective without conflict later on, if she decides to use a prong. Makes it easier to get a positive response.* You can turn anything you want into a big boy aversive, or you can use it appropriately to teach something. Depends on you and the dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline

That is not what I am understanding. I am reading it to say the puppy has not pulled at all but the prong was put on him in case he might ever attempt to pull. In the mean time he is being given corrections when needed, but if he isn't even attempting to pull, I am curious to what he is doing that he is receiving a correction. Does what I wrote make sense? I find it all very confusing. I can imagine what a newbie might be thinking.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I guess the words amazing progress caught my eye. I am just not having an easy time understanding what this is about.


As said before, he was 5 +months old when I introduced the prong, based on his pushy and assertive behavior before starting him on walks. I had not taken him for walks yet, besides some socialization trips as a young pup (flat collar and clicker) to help prevent Pano. He did pull on it a few times of course but these were the only corrections he got on the prong. So he knows that whenever he pulls, there is a correction, no matter which collar (martingale or flat I use off and on). He does need a reminder once in a while but no more than jingling the collar. Again, as said before, it was an experiment (prevention is easier than correcting problem behavior) and it worked for him. No bragging involved. 
He is respectful and happy: lies at my feet, waits for the crate and doors to open, waits for his food, I can handle him all over, nails etc. For the latter I use treats. Comes happily back with a toy to play more fetch etc. 
I just wanted to share this idea to have a discussion and in that sense I was successful.


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## selzer

The nieces are eleven now. I went to a horse show Saturday. Elena is half-leasing a big horse called Gismo. I think he is part arabian, but I could be wrong about that. He weighs about 1500-1600 pounds. You have this skinny little girl leading this gigantic horse around the ring and putting him through his paces. She got a 3rd place in that. And in walk-trot showmanship and pleasure she got a 4th and 5th placement. 

The thing is, a lot of these folks own their horses and ride daily. Where, Elena gets to ride a few times a week. When I was her age, that would have been my dream come true, but whatever. 

They do not use prongs or the equivalent to manage these horses. And horses DO have a mind of their own. They can be stubborn, or vicious, or flighty, or fearful, or horse-aggressive, or full of energy. You have to have confidence, and you have to work with the horse in front of you, and you have to mean business, kind of like with dogs. They are prey animals, and not predators, and that makes them a little different. But evenso, if a little kid can get a gigantic horse to do what she wants without a crop or a "training-bit" than how come adults can't manage five month old puppies without them? 

I truly don't get it. I have a five-month old puppy that got to four of her six puppy class hours. She doesn't need a prong collar. Different strokes for different folks, but then you can have people putting mule bits on horses that don't need it and it simply isn't right. With horses and dogs, it is a relationship we are after. Frankly, I don't think it takes any longer to train without a prong if you know what you are doing. Certainly, you do not get a final product that is any more reliable, the opposite is true. I wish folks weren't so set on them. I wish women, caugh eck hack-tuey, wouldn't bemoan their sex and size and say they just can't do it without the collar. 

Moofie was 20 months old when my eight year old nieces walked him out of the biggest dog show in our area. They did not live with the dog. The dog was trained, never had a prong collar on him. Nder was 2 years old when I took him to meet a potential family for him with a 2 year old and a four year old. We met in the house and then went out into the yard. I dropped the leash and let the dog and kids get used to each other. The four year old picked up the leash and began walking the dog. The dog could have pulled him down, instead he walked along constantly turning his head to make sure the boy was following and the leash was slack. Nder never had a prong collar on him. 

I wish shepherd owners would realize how intelligent, and biddable these dogs are, and let go of the idea that they need to enforce the Law, demand Respect, be the Alpha. We actually can be our dog's buddy. He can be our best friend. Yes, we need to be able to have some control, that that simply isn't an issue when you have a relationship with your dog.


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## wolfy dog

Selzer, you have had success without the prong collar. I have succes with it. So we are both happy. You probably have different temperamented dogs than I do. Not every method works for every dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@selzer, you brought up three very good points. One is women using size and age as an excuse to put a prong on it and I agree that is a bunch of hooey. Another is that once most people put a prong on it, that is as far as it goes and they get stuck there never being able to move beyond the prong. The last one is the impression this makes on especially new GSD owners that come to this forum that they either need to use a prong or that a GSD can not be trained without one. Where is all the discussion about what the top trainers are doing? What methods and what tools are they using when training a puppy of their own or instructing basic obedience classes for puppies? Guess what? They aren't using prongs on baby dogs regardless of the temperament and we as presumably stewards of the breed on this forum should be putting that message out there for new and experienced owners to see. We should be advocating for what is best for both the owner and the dog, not for what is the easiest or fastest method for owners without regard for the dog. We should not be embracing the prong as the be all end all cure all here as it paints a picture of GSDs that can't be trained and can only be managed.


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## tim_s_adams

wolfy dog said:


> Selzer, you have had success without the prong collar. I have succes with it. So we are both happy. You probably have different temperamented dogs than I do. Not every method works for every dog.


I guarantee that I can take a dog with any temperment and train them just fine without using a prong collar or an e-collar. It's not a question of temperment, IMHO a prong collar is never "needed", it's a convenience for the person working the dog, period!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Early use of prongs on young dogs make me wonder how much of the response seen is suppression vs learning. I also question if such training methods can lead to future rebellious behaviors such as handler aggression in response to unfair corrections.


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## Steve Strom

> Where is all the discussion about what the top trainers are doing?


Ok, discuss it. Who? What? How do you define top trainer?


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## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> Ok, discuss it. Who? What? How do you define top trainer?



I would be interested in the answer to these questions as well. I doubt we'll hear any because this is an old argument played out on this board many times.



I don't know a single "top" trainer who does not use some sort of correction collar at some point and they are introduced at a young age paired with food to teach the dogs what the collars do in a way that won't shut them down. My dog had one on at 5 months. Nobody who has seen him train or trial or even just be around him casually would ever claim that it's "shut him down".


Also, these top trainers are 95% positive training using shaping and luring. Maybe old school yank and crank trainers aren't but the new trainers up and coming, the hot new handlers are POSITIVE based. There is only ONE person in IPO that claims to train only positive but even that person has been caught on video using prongs (that pesky technology  )



I doubt that a person whose goal is to do lower levels of Rally, AKC obedience, etc would ever find a need for a correction collar. You could even train a dog to IPO1 without ever correcting them. All food and toy rewards. But once you get to the next level, with the precision required, you have to have a consequence for an action.


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## Sabis mom

tim_s_adams said:


> I guarantee that I can take a dog with any temperment and train them just fine without using a prong collar or an e-collar. It's not a question of temperment, IMHO a prong collar is never "needed", it's a convenience for the person working the dog, period!



A few years ago I would have agreed with you. I trained Bud with a choke and a flat collar, and he was a big, strong, aggressive knot head. 
I was pretty firmly in the camp of if I need a prong I did it wrong. 
Then I met Shadow. Fear made her impossible to walk safely at all. She was injuring us both and on a choke she would literally throttle herself fighting. The prong gave me a way to communicate, without her being injured, that kept her attention on me and allowed me to show her that she did not need to be afraid of everything. It is still not a go to for me and I keep her on her martingale, but like all tools the prong served it's purpose so we could move on. I will say she was 5 years old when I put it on her, she had been trained and I had exhausted all other options. In some ways I wish I had done it sooner but I am not sure that as a tool it should be used to train, rather I see it as something to be used after the dog understands a behavior or command to reinforce or proof. I would not put one on a puppy.


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## Heartandsoul

My two cents and what I have seen more times than not and my own experience with my boy, most go for the prong at a time when they are struggling with issues and in the midst of conflict about using it and feeling that it is the last pitch feeling of needing it. I was one of those.

I saw this thread and thought what a great idea! Get the pup use to the feeling of the prong and the owner time to learn the correct placement and use at a time when it can be gently introduced. It does not mean yanking and cranking or even hard correction. There is a finesse that one learns with this tool, as brought up, a slight hand jiggle tells my boy to hold up a minute or I can verbalized it. To him there is no difference other than one is a sensation at the neck the other a sensation in the ear.

That being said, I read this thread with consideration of Wolfy dogs background and prior posts as an experienced trainer. Though she did clarify using her method of training with rewards later in the thread, I took that as a given. Yup newbies are reading also but really, I can't envision this pup being adversely effected by the prong while in her hands.

Also from my own experience with its use, my boy knows which collar is on or even if he is wearing one. Doesn't matter if the commands and reinforcement is consistent. 

From one who never leaves home without the prong on, a couple days ago I couldn't find his prong and thought the heck with it since I was taking him to a secluded spot and it was going to be a short walk. Sure enough, as we are walking back to the car he sees another owner walking his dog. My boy starts to stiffen, I give a verbal and minor flat collar correction and he strengthened up. Had he not straightened up, he knows that a firmer correction would immediately follow for this behavior and honestly, I did not want to give that kind of correction while on a flat collar as I think it is messier, less to the point, and doesn't have the lightening fast quick pinch and release that a prong has.

This is a good thread and offeres something to think about before issues begin instead of having to think about it later if issues start.


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## Steve Strom

tim_s_adams said:


> I guarantee that I can take a dog with any temperment and train them just fine without using a prong collar or an e-collar. It's not a question of temperment, IMHO a prong collar is never "needed", it's a convenience for the person working the dog, period!


So my question would be, trained to what Tim? I've never met anyone anywhere willing to make that claim,top trainer or schmoes like me. Personally, convenience to me is fine. That means easier, and that's the way I like to do things.


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## Aly

selzer said:


> ...They do not use prongs or the equivalent to manage these horses. And horses DO have a mind of their own. They can be stubborn, or vicious, or flighty, or fearful, or horse-aggressive, or full of energy. You have to have confidence, and you have to work with the horse in front of you, and you have to mean business, kind of like with dogs. They are prey animals, and not predators, and that makes them a little different. But evenso, if a little kid can get a gigantic horse to do what she wants without a crop or a "training-bit" than how come adults can't manage five month old puppies without them?


Selzer, it's far more likely than not that somewhere in that (and most) horses' youth, someone used a "prong equivalent" to teach it manners --- manners being what makes the horse amenable to being handled and ridden by a "skinny little kid" or an inexperienced, middle-aged adult. Those "prong equivalents" include various kinds of bits, whips, spurs, headcollars, ropes, saddles, martingales, etc., etc.

I've found that the basic principles of training are the same in dogs and horses: clarity, patience, lots of rewards, some corrections --- appropriate to the behavior in question --- and _the right tools for the animal in front of you._ 

Some horses could do a grand prix jumping competition in a snaffle (or no bit at all, come to that), whereas others might need a chain over their noses just to be led to pasture. Similarly, some dogs can be trained from start to finish in a flat collar, whereas others may need/respond better to a choke or a prong to get the basics down. What approach is chosen and what works is as much a function of what the animal brings to the table (in terms of history, IQ, temperament and character) as it is the handler's experience and skillset. 

That you've enjoyed success with your methods and your dogs is laudable. But that doesn't make it, of itself, prescriptive for every other dog and handler.

Many roads...

Aly


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## wolfy dog

Selzer (quote)"But evenso, if a little kid can get a gigantic horse to do what she wants without a crop or a "training-bit" than how come adults can't manage five month old puppies without them? "

Evidently you have not read my motivation correctly. Nowhere did I imply that I couldn't handle this pup. Unless you were not referring to me.
Also note that whenever a new method is mentioned or an idea, people stagger because it is something to think about and it turns their world upside down. I remember when clicker training first came up. The old establishment hated it until people started to think about it, study it, proofed that it worked. I am not (just in case things get taken out of context again) saying that I invented a new method. I just tried something new, that's all and so far, I am happy with the results. I overthink these ideas pretty extensively before applying them.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

tim_s_adams said:


> I guarantee that I can take a dog with any temperment and train them just fine without using a prong collar or an e-collar. It's not a question of temperment, IMHO a prong collar is never "needed", it's a convenience for the person working the dog, period!


I agree with this, and sometimes that convenience is not getting dragged into a lake full of gators like my mom and my WL shepherd. Trust me she tried her heart out to not get dragged into that lake (she should have just let go honestly but she loved that dog and didn't want a gator to eat him), but my old shepherd and his harness were up for the job though lol. As far as what selzer said about 11 year old girls and horses... I've seen plenty of people trampled by crazy horses. Its not all ponies and sunshine. (my dad was against me taking horseback riding lessons because the girl down the street fell off and her skull got crushed in and she died) Thats why I like to offer a prong to an unpredictable dog that just needs to work through some kinks for the safety of the owner. Sometimes it really isn't an "excuse". These are ANIMALS after all, not "furbabies" or fuzzy humans. IF the dog KNOWS what to expect then sometimes a prong correction can be the most clear statement. I think MOST people can manage a 5 month old puppy however... For your average 5 month old puppy I feel like prong use could be detrimental to the early bonding stages between you and the pup (great way to squash a soft dog). A lot of it depends on the temperament of that individual dog and owner.


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## wolfy dog

double post


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## wolfy dog

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> For your average 5 month old puppy I feel like prong use could be detrimental to the early bonding stages between you and the pup (great way to squash a soft dog). A lot of it depends on the temperament of that individual dog and owner.


Sigh.... yes. Yesterday I worked with a 15 week old Bichon Frisee. What do you think I used for that pup?


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## Steve Strom

wolfy dog said:


> Sigh.... yes. Yesterday I worked with a 15 week old Bichon Frisee. What do you think I used for that pup?


Dogtra?


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## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> Dogtra?



On Dance Mode.


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## wolfy dog

Double post


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## Muskeg

One of the bigger challenges I faced was teaching a working shepherd dog to pull in harness while skijoring AND also pass other dogs and people, while maintaining speed.

I couldn't and didn't use prong, e, food, or toys. 

I did use corrections. And I did use commands that were trained and enforced. It's not as easy as it might be with a dog bred just for running. Putting a harness on a dog who carries the drives for protection work can be tricky, you have to teach them the difference between jobs. No bite reward when skijoring! Protection work starts in harness for a reason. 

It taught me a lot about dog training, drives, and relationships. 

My point is, the tools aren't so important- it is about how they are used. And I use prongs and e in other training scenarios. It really depends on the dog, what I am trying to do with that dog, and where we are in training.


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## Aly

@Muskeg, I'd love to see video of that. 

Pretty please?

Aly


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> On Dance Mode.


Layer it in with your Itunes. Teach them the language of Hip and Hop. Maybe I should embrace some of the fancy, new words. May be fun.


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## wolfy dog

I have not found good flat collars for these small breed puppies. They are too thin/sharp and can easily hurt a pup. Just because they are small doesn't mean the collars have to be 5 mm wide. So I suggested to sew one her self. Was very different working with that puppy compared to Griff. I *briefly* thought that I chose the wrong breed!


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## Muskeg

Aly- here ya go... she did pretty well racing here as replacement for my so-called sled dog who was supposed to be my race dog. Tikko slacked off so bad in the race before this one, I went with Abby. She'd only seen the pulk a couple times prior to the race.


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## Jax08

wolfy dog said:


> I have not found good flat collars for these small breed puppies. They are too thin/sharp and can easily hurt a pup. Just because they are small doesn't mean the collars have to be 5 mm wide. So I suggested to sew one her self. Was very different working with that puppy compared to Griff. I *briefly* thought that I chose the wrong breed!



Try this store. She doesn't have harnesses for little dogs yet (we're still working out the drawing) but she does have various widths of collars and does a really nice job with design


https://endofthelinek9.com/


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## tim_s_adams

Steve Strom said:


> So my question would be, trained to what Tim? I've never met anyone anywhere willing to make that claim,top trainer or schmoes like me. Personally, convenience to me is fine. That means easier, and that's the way I like to do things.


Valid question, I could have worded that better. But it was late and I didn't have the energy to edit it. There are some outliers that I'm sure would prove to be challenging! Very weak nerved dogs and handler aggressive dogs can be tough to work with, no question! 

What I was trying to say is that a dog that "can" be trained can be trained just as well using other methods. And I strongly believe that! That being said, I don't participate in dog sports, nor have I ever titled a dog in one. So maybe I'm just naive >

I'm not at all against easier nor am I against correctly using prong collars. I just don't believe there's only "one" way to teach a dog anything, and often it seems to me like people who use prong or e collars, at least, state it that way...

Of course, had I known that the dogtra had a dance mode, my experiences in dog training would probably have been way different...


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## Aly

@Muskeg, OMG that looks like SO much fun!! Kudos to you and Abby!! Can't believe she'd only seen the pulk (that's the sled-like object?) a couple of times before. You have me :grin2:

Thanks!

Aly


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## Jax08

@wolfy dog


Facebook page with more patterns
https://www.facebook.com/EndoftheLineK9/


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## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> Valid question, I could have worded that better. But it was late and I didn't have the energy to edit it. There are some outliers that I'm sure would prove to be challenging! Very weak nerved dogs and handler aggressive dogs can be tough to work with, no question!
> 
> What I was trying to say is that a dog that "can" be trained can be trained just as well using other methods. And I strongly believe that! That being said, I don't participate in dog sports, nor have I ever titled a dog in one. So maybe I'm just naive >
> 
> I'm not at all against easier nor am I against correctly using prong collars. I just don't believe there's only "one" way to teach a dog anything, *and often it seems to me like people who use prong or e collars, at least, state it that way...*
> 
> Of course, had I known that the dogtra had a dance mode, my experiences in dog training would probably have been way different...


To the part I bolded... I find it funny that I see it go the other way more. People who absolutely will not use anything other than a flat collar (or martingale, or easy walk harness, or whatever else they deem less cruel then a prong or an ecollar) truly seem to condemn the use of correction collars.

I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use. I currently have three dogs, each with very different temperaments, each with different balance of drives. While I did do some things the same for each (luring, shaping, etc), once we’ve moved to the next step, they’ve all needed different methods, different motivators AND different tools. It also depends what my goals are for each dog. I don’t go into sport training assuming I’ll “need” an ecollar or a prong, but I’ve found that for fine tuning, an ecollar works great and a prong can be extremely versatile, as well. Building drive with a prong is not something most people who don’t train in dog sports would think about. It’s not always used to squash a behavior or to correct a dog. 

My male, who doesn’t have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. But just because it worked well for him, I don’t assume EVERY dog will respond the way he did. I don’t use it much for my girl, who is very appropriate and biddable. When she was still doing IPO, I did use the ecollar to fine tune some things, but for day to day training, it just wouldn’t benefit her. Different dogs. Different temperaments. Different responses to tools. My puppy is only 6 months old, I don’t yet know which tools I will use for him. Right now, it’s a martingale collar. Who knows what the future will bring.

All that said, I believe the judgement that comes with using certain tools to be a little tiresome. Of course there is a wrong way to use them. But there is also a wrong way to use a flat collar. And just because you (general you) haven’t found use for them in the type of training you are doing with one dog, does not mean that there is no place for those tools, period. It also doesn’t mean that you could absolutely, hands down, train MY dog (or any other dog) with your methods. If you can train your dog to walk nicely in public on a flat collar, that’s wonderful for you. If you can get through rally class with a martigale, that’s wonderful, too. But just because you can do those things does not mean you are a better trainer than someone who chooses different methods. It just means that the methods you prefer happen to work for your dog, in your situation.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

wolfy dog said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> 
> For your average 5 month old puppy I feel like prong use could be detrimental to the early bonding stages between you and the pup (great way to squash a soft dog). A lot of it depends on the temperament of that individual dog and owner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh.... yes. Yesterday I worked with a 15 week old Bichon Frisee. What do you think I used for that pup?
Click to expand...

Honestly I don't even want to know...


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## lhczth

GypsyGhost said:


> To the part I bolded... I find it funny that I see it go the other way more. People who absolutely will not use anything other than a flat collar (or martingale, or easy walk harness, or whatever else they deem less cruel then a prong or an ecollar) truly seem to condemn the use of correction collars.
> 
> I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use. I currently have three dogs, each with very different temperaments, each with different balance of drives. While I did do some things the same for each (luring, shaping, etc), once we’ve moved to the next step, they’ve all needed different methods, different motivators AND different tools. It also depends what my goals are for each dog. I don’t go into sport training assuming I’ll “need” an ecollar or a prong, but I’ve found that for fine tuning, an ecollar works great and a prong can be extremely versatile, as well. Building drive with a prong is not something most people who don’t train in dog sports would think about. It’s not always used to squash a behavior or to correct a dog.
> 
> My male, who doesn’t have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. But just because it worked well for him, I don’t assume EVERY dog will respond the way he did. I don’t use it much for my girl, who is very appropriate and biddable. When she was still doing IPO, I did use the ecollar to fine tune some things, but for day to day training, it just wouldn’t benefit her. Different dogs. Different temperaments. Different responses to tools. My puppy is only 6 months old, I don’t yet know which tools I will use for him. Right now, it’s a martingale collar. Who knows what the future will bring.
> 
> All that said, I believe the judgement that comes with using certain tools to be a little tiresome. Of course there is a wrong way to use them. But there is also a wrong way to use a flat collar. And just because you (general you) haven’t found use for them in the type of training you are doing with one dog, does not mean that there is no place for those tools, period. It also doesn’t mean that you could absolutely, hands down, train MY dog (or any other dog) with your methods. If you can train your dog to walk nicely in public on a flat collar, that’s wonderful for you. If you can get through rally class with a martigale, that’s wonderful, too. But just because you can do those things does not mean you are a better trainer than someone who chooses different methods. It just means that the methods you prefer happen to work for your dog, in your situation.



Thank you!


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## tim_s_adams

I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:



> My male, who doesn’t have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. *Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. *


E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.


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## Steve Strom

GypsyGhost said:


> I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use.


Seems pretty reasonable, I think I see people post the first sentence in different ways all the time. Then comes the second part. NOT A PRONG!!!! AHHHH!!!, LOl.


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## Steve Strom

tim_s_adams said:


> I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:
> 
> 
> 
> E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.


That's not what she's saying.


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## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> I never said, nor do I believe, that I'm a "better" trainer than anyone just because I don't use those tools. But your statement below is a great example of what I did just say:
> 
> 
> 
> E-collar vs less full life. That reads alot to me like you're saying "no other method would have worked", and on that point I disagree. I don't disagree with you saying the ecollar worked, it can be an effective training tool. But it isn't the only way IMHO.


And I never said you said you were better. 

Want to come meet my male and show me how you could handle him differently? You’re welcome to. Of course other methods could work, but for him, none would work AS WELL. I didn’t know that saying one tool gave one dog a better life meant that I thought it was the ONLY way to train dogs. And here I thought I had made a point of saying the best tool for the dog in front of you was the tool that worked best for that dog.


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## wolfy dog

I once met an off leash Bloodhound (with owner!) on the beach. I had to ask him how he accomplished that recall. E-collar. At that time I was very much against anything that wasn't 'positive only'. But I thought about it after he told me that that collar bought that dog her freedom to run and have fun on the beach. It changed my way of thinking about it then.


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## wolfy dog

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Honestly I don't even want to know...


Clicker and treats Gandalf! :grin2: You thought that I used a mini E-collar or mini-prong?


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## LuvShepherds

wolfy dog said:


> I once met an off leash Bloodhound (with owner!) on the beach. I had to ask him how he accomplished that recall. E-collar. At that time I was very much against anything that wasn't 'positive only'. But I thought about it after he told me that that collar bought that dog her freedom to run and have fun on the beach. It changed my way of thinking about it then.


I refused to use an e collar on an aggressive rescue. The old trainer was pushing me, but in general, his methods were harsh and I stood my ground. That dog never reached his full potential. Then a woman I knew got Corgi puppies and almost immediately strained her back. She had two high exercise dogs and could not exercise them. The trainer put them in e collars at 6 months and had them running off leash everywhere with perfect recall in one week. Problem solved. So I was a tiny bit more receptive. Then I had a dog who for a lot of reasons missed much early training. By the time he got through his problems, he had learned some impossible habits from my older rescue. Why she is allowed to misbehave is long and complicated. If anyone wants to know PM me. I’m not going to get into it on the forum as it is way off subject. I did everything I knew to do, but he was jumping on people, and he was out of control a lot when I was not around. My family needed to be able to handle him. I upped his exercise, I worked on Sit and other obedience, but he still had some dangerously bad habits. I found a new trainer who explained a different use of e collars. I fought it all the way, then gave in. With one lesson, no more counter surfing. No more tearing up the house and carpets. No jumping on guests. He was pretty good with me before, but he was horrible for family members. With the e collar, he suddenly listened focused and behaved. I use it differently than most people. It’s almost like a clicker. I use all the features, including the sounds. He rarely ever gets a shock and it’s always low level. I’m not using it right now because I don’t need to. I am barely using a prong. For me, the tools are just tools and it’s all in how you use them.


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## tim_s_adams

GypsyGhost said:


> And I never said you said you were better.
> 
> Want to come meet my male and show me how you could handle him differently? You’re welcome to. Of course other methods could work, but for him, none would work AS WELL. I didn’t know that saying one tool gave one dog a better life meant that I thought it was the ONLY way to train dogs. And here I thought I had made a point of saying the best tool for the dog in front of you was the tool that worked best for that dog.


Sorry if I misunderstood you. I'm sure your male is way beyond my skill level. Glad the e-collar helped him! 

In the interest of full disclosure, I worked for awhile with a guy who did board-and-trains for hunting dogs. He'd do initial training with puppies, but also tune-ups for older dogs just prior to hunting season. He relied heavily on negative reinforcement and e-collars. I definitely did not ever presume to question his methods. I watched and learned what I could. And he was very effective using those methods and had lots of repeat customers who sent their dogs to him annually! So I do have lots of experience with e-collars (though I admit they've come a long way since then!). 

I'm not against their use, but it's not a tool I use on my own dogs...just a choice, not right or wrong. But if people are thinking about using an e-collar or a prong they should know clearly that these are not (a) a replacement for training, and (b) a magical solution to all problem behaviors. I think sometimes people, and particularly those new to dogs in general or GSDs specifically, get the wrong idea... 

There was a new thread just today where someone has a 9 month old GSD puppy that is completely out of control, and they asked if using an e-collar would be okay. So lots of people see it as a shortcut replacement for training. Doesn't work that way!

Just for the sake of further discussion, ever wonder how people trained tough dogs for competition before e-collars were available? Was it all done yank-and-crank, or via compulsion of some kind?


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## selzer

GypsyGhost said:


> To the part I bolded... I find it funny that I see it go the other way more. People who absolutely will not use anything other than a flat collar (or martingale, or easy walk harness, or whatever else they deem less cruel then a prong or an ecollar) truly seem to condemn the use of correction collars.
> 
> I firmly believe that you need to adjust your training to each dog. That includes which tools you use. I currently have three dogs, each with very different temperaments, each with different balance of drives. While I did do some things the same for each (luring, shaping, etc), once we’ve moved to the next step, they’ve all needed different methods, different motivators AND different tools. It also depends what my goals are for each dog. I don’t go into sport training assuming I’ll “need” an ecollar or a prong, but I’ve found that for fine tuning, an ecollar works great and a prong can be extremely versatile, as well. Building drive with a prong is not something most people who don’t train in dog sports would think about. It’s not always used to squash a behavior or to correct a dog.
> 
> My male, who doesn’t have the most appropriate temperament, has benefited greatly from the use of an ecollar. It clarified things for him in a way that no other training/proofing had. Had I been firmly against the use of that tool, he would reqire much more management, and have a less full life. But just because it worked well for him, I don’t assume EVERY dog will respond the way he did. I don’t use it much for my girl, who is very appropriate and biddable. When she was still doing IPO, I did use the ecollar to fine tune some things, but for day to day training, it just wouldn’t benefit her. Different dogs. Different temperaments. Different responses to tools. My puppy is only 6 months old, I don’t yet know which tools I will use for him. Right now, it’s a martingale collar. Who knows what the future will bring.
> 
> All that said, I believe the judgement that comes with using certain tools to be a little tiresome. Of course there is a wrong way to use them. But there is also a wrong way to use a flat collar. And just because you (general you) haven’t found use for them in the type of training you are doing with one dog, does not mean that there is no place for those tools, period. It also doesn’t mean that you could absolutely, hands down, train MY dog (or any other dog) with your methods. If you can train your dog to walk nicely in public on a flat collar, that’s wonderful for you. If you can get through rally class with a martigale, that’s wonderful, too. But just because you can do those things does not mean you are a better trainer than someone who chooses different methods. It just means that the methods you prefer happen to work for your dog, in your situation.


I firmly believe you have to adjust your training to each dog, and I currently have fourteen, so I am constantly adjusting. I just don't have that connection to adjust the tools I use. I have one leash for my adult dogs. One. I have a couple of martingales because the boys are bigger than the girls. The adjusting for me, is in the motivation, in the mind, because I really don't use treats, or clickers or any tools. I use relationship with each dog, knowing each dog, knowing what expect with respect to their temperament and training, knowing who they are, what they like, what they dislike and how to outwit them. We have the thumbs and we have the brains. We can outwit a dog and never need any physical show of superiority. 

Ah well, I am glad that there are others who are not afraid to say "no" to what is considered to be protocol. And, I am glad that others are not just clapping their hands when people are putting prongs on puppies for no reason whatsoever.


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## selzer

I'll go further. As a kid I read a book about a girl that was thrown from a horse at a camp, and lost her nerve. A friend of hers, who knew she had potential with horses, took an interest, and at a horse show, bought a mare he had known previously, but now was a nervous wreck. He gave it to the girl to help both recover. Not going to recount the story, because it is a fairy tale, and not what this is about. But he said something, about touching the mare as you would a bird. She will respond. 

I wonder how many of us touch our dogs with that kind of gentleness. I do. And, they do respond. But I never see big, bad, GSD owners talking about how gently they stroke their GSD. Instead, we "communicate" through points on a collar. I KNOW it works. I also know that gentleness and time, and allowing a dog to come to you -- even an abused and injured dog (who happened to be very high drive), yeah, I gave her space, and time, and when she came to me, I gave her very gentle attention. And you should have seen that dog. That was one I cried over. She went into the back seat and drove 4 hours to her new home beside the car seat of the baby. She was solid as a rock. If I tried to put a prong on her or an e-collar, I believe the best I would have gotten out of her would have been "maybe ok."


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## GypsyGhost

selzer said:


> I'll go further. As a kid I read a book about a girl that was thrown from a horse at a camp, and lost her nerve. A friend of hers, who knew she had potential with horses, took an interest, and at a horse show, bought a mare he had known previously, but now was a nervous wreck. He gave it to the girl to help both recover. Not going to recount the story, because it is a fairy tale, and not what this is about. But he said something, about touching the mare as you would a bird. She will respond.
> 
> I wonder how many of us touch our dogs with that kind of gentleness. I do. And, they do respond. But I never see big, bad, GSD owners talking about how gently they stroke their GSD. Instead, we "communicate" through points on a collar. I KNOW it works. I also know that gentleness and time, and allowing a dog to come to you -- even an abused and injured dog (who happened to be very high drive), yeah, I gave her space, and time, and when she came to me, I gave her very gentle attention. And you should have seen that dog. That was one I cried over. She went into the back seat and drove 4 hours to her new home beside the car seat of the baby. She was solid as a rock. If I tried to put a prong on her or an e-collar, I believe the best I would have gotten out of her would have been "maybe ok."


I will not speak for others who use correction collars here, but I certainly know how loving I am toward my dogs. I don’t see how using a certain collar changes that. It’s not like I just slapped a prong or an ecollar on any of my dogs right off the bat and expected magic. Sometimes there are dogs where you don’t have the benefit of having all the time in the world to fix things. With a stable dog, who has a good temperament to start, sure. And for my stable dogs, for day to day training, no correction collars are used. At all. For sport, they are used to build drive and fine tune what they already know, but that’s not what I want to focus on here. There ARE dogs, like it or not, who do not have motivation for praise, or food, or toys. There are dogs that do not come with an innate desire to please. There are dogs who naturally do not have a desire to engage. There are dogs with no discernible threshold, who will react to inappropriate things in inappropriate ways. What then? What do you do when your choices are to keep beating a dead horse (so to speak) or use other methods? Do you just euthanize a dog like that? Is that better than seeking out other methods to break through to the dog? Like it or not, some dogs’ biggest motivator is the avoidance of a correction. Is it fun to train these dogs? Absolutely not, at first. But many come around to other methods and other motivators once the rules are crystal clear. Using correction collars does NOT ruin your relationship with your dog. If you are consistent, fair and educated in their proper use, they are great tools for some dogs and/or some situations. And just because a correction collar is used, that does NOT mean the training isn’t still overwhelmingly positive. The use of a correction doesn’t take away positive reinforcement. That’s still there in spades.

I know my boy is not perfect. And his temperament is not correct for a GSD. I don’t ever recount my experiences with him in a light that makes it seem like I think all GSD should be like him. He is not what a GSD is supposed to be like. I wouldn’t wish having to train a dog like him on anyone. But he came into my home, and if I can make his life a little more clear, a little less scary, then I will.

I don’t judge you for how you train your dogs. I have never once said that correction collars are the only way to train every dog. I understand your way of training. I respect it. I guess I would just like to see an attempt to understand mine.


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## Jax08

Why do you guys continue to attempt to justify and explain your collar choices to people who have proven time and again that they have no desire to learn or understand, have never used said training method so have no knowledgeable input on the subject, and only want to tell you that you are wrong even though your personal experience says otherwise ??


Once again, a post about training a young dog with a prong had devolved into a "omg..I've never used one so you are so wrong" by the 13th post. Such a shame, it could have been a good thread.

Just don't go down that rabbit hole with them.


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## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry if I misunderstood you. I'm sure your male is way beyond my skill level. Glad the e-collar helped him!
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I worked for awhile with a guy who did board-and-trains for hunting dogs. He'd do initial training with puppies, but also tune-ups for older dogs just prior to hunting season. He relied heavily on negative reinforcement and e-collars. I definitely did not ever presume to question his methods. I watched and learned what I could. And he was very effective using those methods and had lots of repeat customers who sent their dogs to him annually! So I do have lots of experience with e-collars (though I admit they've come a long way since then!).
> 
> I'm not against their use, but it's not a tool I use on my own dogs...just a choice, not right or wrong. But if people are thinking about using an e-collar or a prong they should know clearly that these are not (a) a replacement for training, and (b) a magical solution to all problem behaviors. I think sometimes people, and particularly those new to dogs in general or GSDs specifically, get the wrong idea...
> 
> There was a new thread just today where someone has a 9 month old GSD puppy that is completely out of control, and they asked if using an e-collar would be okay. So lots of people see it as a shortcut replacement for training. Doesn't work that way!
> 
> Just for the sake of further discussion, ever wonder how people trained tough dogs for competition before e-collars were available? Was it all done yank-and-crank, or via compulsion of some kind?


I think you would find it interesting to go to a GOOD IPO trainer, one who trains motivationally but also uses an ecollar, and see how completely different its use is away from hunting dogs. It’s really a very versatile tool. Not suggesting you use an ecollar on your dog, but it may really be an eye opener for you to see how others use it.

FWIW, I’ve seen more people use compulsion away from sport than in it. I remember handling my grandfather’s dobes in class when I was a kid/teenager and watching people yank and crank their dogs all over the place. And this was just prep for AKC obedience trials. I’m certain some brutal methods were used for “hard” dogs before training motivationally kind of took over. I’m sure some still train “the old way”. I don’t, and never have, so I will not comment further on that.


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## GypsyGhost

Jax08 said:


> Why do you guys continue to attempt to justify and explain your collar choices to people who have proven time and again that they have no desire to learn or understand, have never used said training method so have no knowledgeable input on the subject, and only want to tell you that you are wrong even though your personal experience says otherwise ??
> 
> Just don't go down that rabbit hole with them.


I’d like there to be a record of sane people who don’t vilify the proper use of tools in these threads in case someone with an open mind comes along some day. If no one speaks up about their success with the proper use of these collars, people start doing things like banning collars. I certainly don’t think I’m going to change any minds here.


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## Femfa

When I worked at a renowned horse stable that produced national and international champions in hunter, bridal, dressage, jump, and even cross country, shanks were commonly used when leading the hot headed sport horses. They were often put on the walker with them on as well. You could call these the equivalent of a prong if you wanted. Not all of them needed them. One of their best champions was the sweetest male I’ve ever met. A child could lead that horse anywhere, and I adored him. There were others who tried to kick me in the head while leading because they wanted to stay with other horses, so they threw a temper tantrum. I mean, one tried to bite me when I went to change its water out. It made me realize that there are horses with fiery temperaments that you can’t win over with hands full of treats. They’ll just bite your hand and scoff at you. 

I feel like people use horses as this perfect example of “lead by kindness”, and yet most of the horses I see trained in competitive sport use corrections just the same as they do positive reinforcement. Some trainers are more balanced, some more positive, some more compulsive. Depends on where you are and who you train with. The corrections just look different. 

I really do agree with what the general message said - train the dog in front of you. Sometimes food isn’t enough. Sometimes toys don’t matter. And sometimes the only way to get what you want is by a hard correction, which is followed by play and praise. It doesn’t mean it feels good, but it becomes a motivator for the dog to develop a strong foundation so that eventually, you aren’t reliant on it and neither is the dog. 

I also think Wolfydog took the right steps for her dog. She isn’t going to destroy the confidence in the dog she’s been working so hard with. She saw a training opportunity and it worked well for her. I think sharing things like that is important, because regardless of people agreeing on how they would do it, it allows others to think more openly about how to approach training. Most training is reactive rather than proactive, and that’s important to reflect on. 

I mean, I slapped a prong on my girl at 6 months because she was secretly a sled dog in hiding, and I worked endlessly on leash pressure and walking loose leash. It worked perfectly until she hit her teen months and said, nope, don’t care. She had never pulled a day in her life before that. It took a few months of learning, especially because I’m still learning, but we can walk loose leash on the flat again past the annoying little dogs that eat ankles for lunch. 

You might use a DeWalt brand screw driver, but I’ll stick to my stupid little Walmart branded multi-headed one, ‘cause it works for me even if it looks dumb and isn’t as fancy. But it’s quick, and it works just fine. And I still get the job done well.


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## wolfy dog

Femfa, thanks for wrapping it up. We were posting at the same time and you were one step ahead of me. And yes, Griff is a happy, confident dog, who, I know, will never take "no" for an answer. But I have his number. I can only imagine him in the hands of someone who only wants 'to guide him gently and be successful. The breeder told me he would not repeat this breeding because the dogs are too high drive for someone who "just" wants to have a GSD for a pet. We were both happy that there were only three pups in that litter.
If it were me, I would now close this thread as it is going the wrong way. Everything has been said and we don't need the 'better than thou' comments.


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## Jax08

GypsyGhost said:


> I’d like there to be a record of sane people who don’t vilify the proper use of tools in these threads in case someone with an open mind comes along some day. If no one speaks up about their success with the proper use of these collars, people start doing things like banning collars. I certainly don’t think I’m going to change any minds here.


I get that and respect that but I think you would accomplish that by stating your experience instead of getting lost in the back and forth with others. 

Listen, you and I have been fortunate to experience some of the top trainers in the country. Trainers who read and understand the latest research on how dogs learn. Trainers that already knew and understood how dogs learn before the research confirmed it.

They know how to use these collars. They know how to motivate and build strong relationships with their dogs. Our dogs would NEVER perform at the level they do if we were pounding on them. The training of old when only the hardest dogs could compete because only they could take the yank and crank methods are over. We know this.

We also know that in countries where these tools are not allowed, the trainers are physically going at these dogs and beating them. The top competitors are going behind tall fences and using these collars. This has all been witnesses and videotaped.

If we are going to beat the AR people, we need to stick to facts and humane training methods, not defense of our methods with keyboard warriors.


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## Jax08

And as my final post on this thread, the most brutal punishments I've seen in training were not done with a collar....it was done with the hands of the trainer in a violent, personal, attack on the dog.


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## Aly

Femfa said:


> ...
> I also think Wolfydog took the right steps for her dog. She isn’t going to destroy the confidence in the dog she’s been working so hard with. She saw a training opportunity and it worked well for her.* I think sharing things like that is important, because regardless of people agreeing on how they would do it, it allows others to think more openly about how to approach training.* Most training is reactive rather than proactive, and that’s important to reflect on.


I really enjoyed your entire post, @Femfa, but the above excerpt is absolutely key --- particularly the portion that I bolded.

Thank you again, @Wolfydog, for starting such an interesting thread. Thanks too to the members whose thoughtful posts made this such an enjoyable discussion to read.

Aly


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## lhczth

tim_s_adams said:


> Just for the sake of further discussion, ever wonder how people trained tough dogs for competition before e-collars were available? Was it all done yank-and-crank, or via compulsion of some kind?



E-collars have been around for awhile. They have evolved a lot compared to the original product. Pinch collars have been around a very long time. Choke collars, throw chains, leather leashes, hands, feet, food and toys have been around a lot longer. All are tools for training, not to replace training. Sometimes I think people do jump to using a specific tool thinking that it will be an instant fix instead of a way to help their training, but that doesn't make the tool the problem. 



Training methods vary as much as the humans and dogs involved. I have been training working dogs for 35 years. IMO training has evolved tremendously over the years and most is because of the tools now available. Unfortunately there are a lot of sanctimonious people out there that would happily force their narrowly defined ideas on training on all trainers and all dogs.


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## lhczth

Jax08 said:


> And as my final post on this thread, the most brutal punishments I've seen in training were not done with a collar....it was done with the hands of the trainer in a violent, personal, attack on the dog.



YES. :frown2:


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## Steve Strom

Training has evolved, sanctimony hasn't. In the early 90's there was still debate about whether or not you could train using food. The first ecollar I saw had three settings and you had to change the contacts to change those. Basically, high, higher, and highest.


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## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> Training has evolved, sanctimony hasn't. In the early 90's there was still debate about whether or not you could train using food. The first ecollar I saw had three settings and you had to change the contacts to change those. Basically, high, higher, and highest.



Using food and toys was pretty new in the AKC world in the early to mid 80's. Training was still mostly choke collars, some pinch collars (if needed) and praise. The club I belonged to at the time had people who went PP (though I have never considered building drive through deprivation to be P) and wanted to ban new members who used any physical corrections because they believe their methods were far better. Luckily the club balanced out over time. I have also watched the SchH/IPO world evolve over time.


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## Steve Strom

> I have also watched the SchH/IPO world evolve over time.


Its always interesting to just look at some different things and see how people who've been involved for a long time start to use different techniques they never would have in the past.


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## lhczth

Those that are consistently at the top are there because they know how to fit their training to the dog in front of them.


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## Muskeg

I read an old bird dog training book at the library once, and they had a few suggestions for dogs that hunted "varmin" (deer or unwanted game).

First, follow the dog while chasing until you can cut him off somewhere. Grab the dog, and give him a beating he won't forget. Along those same lines was the suggestion to pepper the chasing dog with bird shot. 

Or, kill/cull that dog. 

So, e-collar can fix varmint hunting in a few minutes. Isn't that more humane? 

Same goes for IPO and protection sports. Tools, used correctly, make the training more humane, not less. They also allow a wider range of dogs to participate or compete. Along with a greater variety of handlers- many of whom vastly prefer more motivational, clear methods of training. 

Anyone who tells you training was more humane prior to the e-collar or prong, they really don't know what they are talking about. Of course, any tool can be abused, but if you start to dig into dog sports and activities, you'll find the methods have become more humane and motivational, not less.


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## LuvShepherds

My conclusion on training collars is to use the least intrusive tool you need and use it correctly.


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## wolfy dog

LuvShepherds said:


> My conclusion on training collars is to use the least intrusive tool you need and use it correctly.


My Whippets never wore anything else but their hound collar; a buckle collar with a wide part across the throat, softly padded to protect their trachea when they would lunge when a leaf blew during puppy hood, a squirrel crossed the street, right in front of them or at a lure coursing event etc. I never corrected that behavior because it was so hardwired in their brains. Other than that puling was never an issue. I taught them with a clicker and treats and weaned them off that as soon as they got it. Never had a problem with them. They were just as much loved as my current GSDs. The amount of love is not equal to the training method.


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## selzer

I keep posting because my premise is that it is not the tools it is the handlers, and often the handler's belief that they need these tools. Most don't. Might you have a dog that is totally independent and way over on the I don't care about anything scale? Sure. That is a rarity. That just isn't going to happen in nature very often. 


The problem is not the tools it is the human condition that screams "Yes, but my dog is..." I would bet my house and all my dogs on the vast majority of these dogs don't need a prong collar. Their owners do. 


That needs to be said. It needs to be read. 


One can be gentle and still not be permissive, it's attitude. Elena does well with horses because she has confidence and a certain attitude. And she is helping to train another horse at the barn. 


Probably 98 percent of problems with dogs are in the minds/attitude of their owners. And probably better than 70% of prong users think that their dog is a 2 percent-er. 


The problem is the human condition. If we could radically accept that, then change could be made. 


What I have noticed in the past 40 years, is that dogs are worse-behaved, not better behaved, since prong and e-collars became the rage. Something IS missing. Yes, we had choke chains in the seventies. No one knew how to use them, and half the folks did not know the right way to put them on. Books were written with how to put the choke chain on the dog. A choke chain may be more brutal than a prong injury wise, but it certainly never was dubbed "power steering." Once you get it on right, you still have to train the dog. And people did. 


I never heard of dogs or cats being mauled waiting their turn at the vet's office. Nowadays they are. Why? These are all the dogs that do not sport the correction collars??? Nope. The only dog that ever got close enough to bite one of mine was sporting both a prong and an e-collar. The problem there was DEFINITELY on the other side of the leash. 


Back in the day, dogs were dogs and there were realistic expectations for dogs. Back in the day, people trained their dogs and did not rely on a bunch of external aids. Trainers who started back in the dark ages, if they were any good at all, moved away from compulsion training/avoiding correction, to more motivational training and have grown with their experience. The prong collar is like training wheels to a lot of folks. The hope is that the training wheels will no longer be needed at some point, but for a lot of folks, the training wheels are good enough, and certainly it is not embarrassing to have your training wheels on when you are six or seven or fourteen or twenty eight. Not. It IS embarrassing. But folks wear around those prongs like they are as bad-explicative as their dog, like it is a badge of honor. 


When I see a dog on a prong, I'm cautious, moreso than when I see a dog without a prong, moreso even than when I see a dog on a flexi. 


If you are working with your fourth dog, and you needed a prong with each of them, then the problem is problem is probably on the owner-end of the leash, and it probably is time to hang up the training wheels, so you can learn to balance and give your dogs something more.


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## Steve Strom

Something to think about in the never ending debate that I think people either insist on ignoring, or just refuse to admit with the differences in dogs. There's things you can generally suppress just by never doing or using them, but once you open those up you aren't going to kiss and cuddle them out of it. Whatever line, if all you do is walk them or throw a ball, there's going to be the things in their temperament you never see. Until you're the one holding the leash and doing it, you really don't know or understand. I admit I couldn't say for sure my dog would walk a rally course in a flat collar, never tried.


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## tim_s_adams

To put people's mind at ease, I am and always will be STRONGLY opposed to any legislation that would ban e or prong collars. The fact that I don't use them does not mean I don't see their value! 

But I am against the notion that the average pet owner "needs" either one to train their dog! Selzer said it very well:



> Probably 98 percent of problems with dogs are in the minds/attitude of their owners. And probably better than 70% of prong users think that their dog is a 2 percent-er.


Most dogs can and should be trained without them IMHO.


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## Castlemaid

LOL, Sue - you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not from a place of personal experience. I have been on the board long enough that I remember when your repetitive refrain about working dogs and drive was "it's not the dog, it's the training", and had long, drawn-out post with a bazillion logical points about how taking a puppy (any puppy, from any breeding), and starting drive-building exercises as an early age would bring out the dog's drive and make it into an IPO/Police/Service/SAR dog. No matter how many people with LOADS of personal experience breeding/rearing/training working dogs posted to explain that drive is innate and genetic, and the dog has it or does not, you stuck to your logically thought-out, well presented with many theoretical (made-up) examples arguments. 

Then, those arguments stopped. Hmm, did you figure something out from personal experience? I don't know. 

And as far as saying that prong collars are for people who don't know how to train dogs, well, Gryffon had ALL of his training done on a flat, most of it off leash. He was a happy, bidabble, self-controlled dog that only wanted to please. The prong only went on for protection, and when I was walking two dogs at a time, for extra safety, to make sure I could hold them. 

Gryffon was so strong, that in two separate instances, during agitation training, I handed the line to one of the trainers to hold Gryffon (he was on an agitation collar). Both times, experienced full-grown, physically fit men. Neither could hold him. Both times, they were dragged down the field, while they tried with all their might to dig in their heels and stop him (as a brag - I could hold him back, so they were surprised that they could not). A prong collar just made me feel more confident in controlling my dog, knowing what I was dealing with at the end of the leash. Though most of the time, he was on a flat, for rally-o, or for walks in town. 

Anyways, enough stories. The Collective experience and knowledge of the posters here probably adds up to years and years and years of all sorts of training of all sorts of dogs over all sorts of disciplines, and their collective opinion, experience and knowledge of the use of a prong collar is not to be sneezed at.


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## wolfy dog

Selzer, how are you walking, playing, training 14 dogs on a flat collar? Every day all dogs? Or all of them separate? You just cannot possibly have time to work them all to their potential and thus to know them for a 100%. I guess this because I have the same amount of hours in a day as you do. If they spend a lot of time in their kennels or inside doing nothing in particular, it is easy to judge others who work their butts off with the high drive dogs.
If your dogs are softer temperamented (you have show lines from what I remember) you just cannot judge people who have these high drive dogs. Until I got the WL GSDs I had tunnel vision in thinking that clickering was the gospel; after all it had worked beautifully with all my dogs (Whippets and many foster dogs and dogs in my class). So go ahead and write another repetitive essay to proof your point.
This was my last post in this thread.


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## Steve Strom

tim_s_adams said:


> Most dogs can and should be trained without them IMHO.


Can I just say its a Starmark and pretend, Lol.


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## WateryTart

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I prefer to train the dog in front of me. My last WL shepherd was hard headed, and very strong willed, when he was young he liked to pull. He didn't care about the prong, but he did care about pleasing. I used his desire to please to my advantage, once he figured out I didn't want him to pull that was what he wanted too. Gandalf is the opposite in some ways (and not WL really), all I have to do is give him a look, sometimes a word if he is misbehaving and he is like oh crap! And quickly corrects himself. He also prior to 6 months old had no issues pulling on a leash, and still doesn't. May be your pup Griff just doesn't have that type of personality? Not all shepherds like to pull :wink2: , you may be preparing for something that never happens anyways. I use a prong for rare instances, he is still young but we didn't put one on him prior to 6 months. I want to be in control in case if he gets a smart idea (i'm a small girl and hes huge). He hasn't yet. But I will be prepared if he does. Lately i've been using a martingale instead, I will phase the prong completely out soon. My WL shepherd during adolescence pulled my mom into a lake full of gators just out of the blue, he was wearing a harness. IF she had a prong on him I don't think that would have happened. He was testing the waters literally.




Wait wait - GATORS?? I don’t believe it! That’s crazy!


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## MineAreWorkingline

@selzer, I could not agree more than with your statement about the majority thinking they own a two percenter and they don't. I think that when it comes to puppies and basic obedience, you hit the nail on the head when you said a prong is like training wheels for the owner rather than power steering for the dogs.
@Steve, without going back and rereading the whole thread, I think you commented that you use a prong on your puppies because it is the easiest method for you. That's the best statement on this thread. My apologies if you did not post that.
@LuvShepherds, Great post!


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## WateryTart

Double post


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## CometDog

I have an atypical prong story...my fearful pit mix Ruger. We had him on a no escape harness because he would turn into such a K9 kite when spooked that he slipped everything. He would pull on a slip so hard he was choking and drooling by the time we calmed him down. I mean, a surprise sunflower around a bend use to be enough to do this to him. I won't even tell about the solar panels that were on my lawn during install.

He slipped the no slip harness one day.

We tried all positive, we tried food, we tried relationship building games. No matter what he had 2 conditions. A)in my house or yard with no company over ..B ) Flooded 

At this point my trainer said in a rather thoughtful voice..correct the behavior. Try a prong.

So we did, and it worked. He would still shut down, but at least he was next to me and still on lead. And the corrections he got were light. I used a Leerburg prong lead with a dominant dog collar for back up in case he slipped the prong which is near impossible to do.

So it worked. And it continues to work. Because fleeing was no longer an option he had to just deal, and when nobody died he got better and better at dealing. We adapted a "nothing is nothing" posture/attitude and just simply did not acknowledge his fear. 

The improvement is remarkable. The ONLY time he cowers now is if some idiot persists with the "all dogs love me" gig. He walks with his tail up even on busy streets. He still flinches when manhole covers are run over and go KACHUNK..but he does not attempt to flee or shut down at all. Just a flinch. 

If he goes out without the prong? If we attempt just the slip collar? He.Is.Nervous. The prong, properly fitting too, centers him. He has an association with it. It's the nothing is going to kill me while going bye byes collar lol

Is it a permanent part of his life? Yes. Has his life improved for using this tool? Oh Lordy yes. So who cares? So does that make me or my trainer at failure at all the other methods we tried? Or does it make us versatile enough to think outside the box and try what may work on an individual basis? 

Again with the congruities in my life..I don't profess do know anyone here for real and hey we can be anyone we want to be on the internet...but if someone is not having a history of training high drive working lines and is knocking choosing tools, it is the same as people with non autistic/ normal kids telling me the got their kids to listen by using a sticker chart. Well booly booly for you!


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> I firmly believe you have to adjust your training to each dog, and I currently have fourteen, so I am constantly adjusting. I just don't have that connection to adjust the tools I use. I have one leash for my adult dogs. One. I have a couple of martingales because the boys are bigger than the girls. The adjusting for me, is in the motivation, in the mind, because I really don't use treats, or clickers or any tools. I use relationship with each dog, knowing each dog, knowing what expect with respect to their temperament and training, knowing who they are, what they like, what they dislike and how to outwit them. We have the thumbs and we have the brains. We can outwit a dog and never need any physical show of superiority.
> 
> Ah well, I am glad that there are others who are not afraid to say "no" to what is considered to be protocol. And, I am glad that others are not just clapping their hands when people are putting prongs on puppies for no reason whatsoever.




Okay trying this again. I thought I had a double post and then it turns out I didn’t.

Seltzer can you talk more about that? I’d be interestrd in knowing how that works. I am a strong proponent of train the dog in front of you, which to me also means that can change as the dog changes. When she was a puppy, she needed firmer hand and more boundaries. Now that she is older I use mostly positive methods and we are mainly teaching new skills anyway without a lot of need for me to step in with jey don’t do that.

We are working mostly on transitioning away from a prong to martingale formloose leash walking. She does reasonably well with heeling without a training collar but the loose leash skill would be nice to build. Nothing, but NOTHING is as interesting to this dog as sniffing sometimes. (Not me, not husband, not food, not anything.) obviously this is something we are working on with a trainer but I am intrigued by your use of your relationship with your dog. Does that just mean you work on being more interesting than the distractor (which is what I’m currently doing) or are there other strategies you are using? 


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## tim_s_adams

Steve Strom said:


> Can I just say its a Starmark and pretend, Lol.


It is a Starmark LOL, no pretending, and I don't recommend it!

Look, I jumped into this "discussion" because Wolfy specifically asked for comments from people who have trained working line dogs without using a prong collar. I have.

What I haven't done is say that these tools you all are so vehemently defending are "bad". I am not an AR person, or a keyboard warrior, or sanctimonious, I just don't use them. And I don't think the average pet owner "needs" them either. But it is a go-to recommendation too often IMHO, for people with undertrained, adolescent dogs. We can agree to disagree on this point, that's fine.


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## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> It is a Starmark LOL, no pretending, and I don't recommend it!
> 
> Look, I jumped into this "discussion" because Wolfy specifically asked for comments from people who have trained working line dogs without using a prong collar. I have.
> 
> What I haven't done is say that these tools you all are so vehemently defending are "bad". I am not an AR person, or a keyboard warrior, or sanctimonious, I just don't use them. And I don't think the average pet owner "needs" them either. But it is a go-to recommendation too often IMHO, for people with undertrained, adolescent dogs. We can agree to disagree on this point, that's fine.


Can you tell me why you think using a choke on some dogs is ok, but using a prong is not something you will use? How did you convince yourself to use the starmark prong collar (whether successful or not) if you say prongs are not necessary? I’m honestly curious, especially about your use of a choke. I won’t say I’ve never used them, but they are not my go-to collar, unless it’s something like a DDC and I am specifically trying to take drive out of a dog. Thanks in advance.


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## Steve Strom

I'm not defending a collar. I'm defending the choice of people to use the easiest most effective, humane equipment and method possible, even if its just for their convenience without the implication of they've failed or taken short cuts from something better.


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## mycobraracr

I use anything that works for the dog. I dont care what it is. Prong, E, flat, choke, slip lead, makes no difference to me as long as Im getting the desired results from the dog. As already stated, the tool doesnt matter, but how theyre used. 

As for training a working dog without a prong. I didnt have a correction collar on Areli until I had the eight year old girl handling her. She need it for control. When I work Areli I dont. Areli has been mostly through modivation. Its what seems to be the best for her. Even with teaching the retrieve. For the most part, corrections seem to make Areli hectic. Almost like she doesnt understand them. Not saying she doesnt get any, but she doesnt need a ton usually. Ive been leaving a prong on her these days, but its rarely used. 

Now my other dogs use prongs and E. My pit uses a choke as thats what makes sense to him. Kimber works best on E, and we use her prong to bring out aggression. Xander uses a dominant collar or E. All depends on the dog. 

I 100% agree most issues in the pet world are caused because of whos on the end of the leash. I deal with it daily. What it comes down to for me, is the people arent going to change a whole lot, so if using a prong or E, makes it so they can have a well behaved dog the. So be it. It doesnt matter how good the dog is in my hands. I only have it for training. The rest is on the owner. I can do things most pet people cant. Thats why they pay me to fix it. So....


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## LuvShepherds

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not defending a collar. I'm defending the choice of people to use the easiest most effective, humane equipment and method possible, even if its just for their convenience without the implication of they've failed or taken short cuts from something better.


We (GSD owners) tend to have strong opinions. We got into this endless loop originally because of the proliferance of new posters who want to slap prongs on puppies. I don’t think any experienced German Shepherd owner agrees with that. Also, most of us get a puppy, then don’t get the next one for years. @selzer is a breeder with a lot of dogs, so she has had to learn and has had the opportunity to work with more puppies in a few years than most of us have in 10 years.

I am in awe of @MineAreWorkingline, who has a pack of very high drive, very well bred intense WL dogs and a SL, all of which were trained off leash and who are very responsive and well trained. That is both talent, an innate understanding of dog behavior and the opportunity to learn and try things on many puppies in a short time.

I know I made some poor choices with my WL because I was used to much easier dogs. My rescues have all been relatively easy, other than some HA. My trainer even said I will never have another puppy as challenging as he has been. My other breeder dogs have all been less intense. All WGSL. Lines are different dogs are different. I completely agree with your comment above.


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## tim_s_adams

GypsyGhost said:


> Can you tell me why you think using a choke on some dogs is ok, but using a prong is not something you will use? How did you convince yourself to use the starmark prong collar (whether successful or not) if you say prongs are not necessary? I’m honestly curious, especially about your use of a choke. I won’t say I’ve never used them, but they are not my go-to collar, unless it’s something like a DDC and I am specifically trying to take drive out of a dog. Thanks in advance.


Good questions! My use of a choke chain is mostly due to the fact that it was very popular, the current go-to recommendation, back when I was doing the training. I got my first dog in 1969. In the 70s the choke collar was still the go-to for all the people I worked with, so use them I did. I have not used one since the mid 80s. My first 2 dogs never had another collar. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, but the Martingale or a flat collar is my preference now.

I did not ever say I won't use a prong collar! What I said was, I haven't. 

My choice to try the Starmark collar was spurred primarily by reading comments on this forum. I'm not opposed to trying something new LOL, and all the glowing success stories I was reading here started making me feel out-of-date. 

My intention at the time was to give a prong collar a try, but my puppy was still pretty young, about 5 or 6 months old at the time, and the Starmark had been recommended by a trainer friend as a good compromise. So I bought one. 

The Starmark has little plastic triangles fixed on the inside of the collar, which quite frankly do nothing. There is no pinch effect using this collar, and it took my puppy about 2 days to realize that! I still use it because I'm a cheapskate, but my dog is now 19 months old and very very rarely needs any kind of correction. When she does, I use my voice. At this stage she responds well to that even in drive. 

A good friend of mine has titled many dogs in IPO, and trained LEOs and their canines for many years. She has 2 dogs that are never outside without their prong collars on, and her Doberman is also always muzzled because she's a bit reactive at times LOL. I don't question her choice to use those tools, she knows what she's doing! Beyond that, they're her dogs, and I don't tell anyone how to treat their dogs unless they ask me. BTW she's given me excellent advice many times, for which I'm eternally grateful!

Again, I joined the discussion because Wolfy specifically asked to hear from people who've trained WL GSDs without a prong. I have. I never said I thought the tool was bad, but I do think they are over utilized. And I'm glad I didn't buy one because other methods worked nicely for my pup. If that makes me out-of-date so be it, I'm over that fear LOL!


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## GandalfTheShepherd

wolfy dog said:


> Clicker and treats Gandalf! :grin2: You thought that I used a mini E-collar or mini-prong?


I kid you not we nearly got mauled by a tiny whippet with a prong collar on the trail once, Gandalf was pulling and I was on roller blades and we rolled right on past. The dude let the little whippet lunge at us while we passed by. I had to double take, couldn't believe what I had just seen. :laugh2: .


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## Thecowboysgirl

Steve Strom said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> 
> If at 6 months old (or is he younger?) he is pulling and you are having to CORRECT (thats why you put a prong on right?) I wouldn't call that a success at all. I can't say i've really had a pup pull hard prior to 6 months old or at all, Gandalf was way more interested in sticking by me. You said he doesn't pull on a regular collar either, but why does he even need the prong then? Sounds confusing and contradicting. Maybe work on regular leash foundation first, I always like the turn around method or circle if he is checking something out. Use those rewards when he focuses on you. At this age I would be using positive reinforcement more than when I would be as they get older. Make the experience of walking on a leash pleasant and engaging, pull out a tug and play if hes really sticking by your side and making lots of eye contact. Their attention span is so short at that age i'm not sure a pup would even make the connection between a pull and a correction on a prong? Save the big guns for when you need them!!!
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is defining things as a "need" If you look at most things as a need, you'll risk making them dependent on it and then, yeah, you're going to need it. Its actually pretty easy to use a prong to ease pulling, even at 10', or even 33'. Use what you want, but use what works the easiest and clearest to the dog. Not using a prong isn't any kind of significant measure of anything. All it means is you didn't use a prong.
> 
> If you train the behavior, the dog doesn't care what collar they have on. Do they know? Of course they know what you put around their neck. If they really know what you expect and have taught them, the collar doesn't matter anymore.
> 
> Different dogs, different goals, differences in people.
Click to expand...

I don't seem to have an applause emoji.

Imagine an applause emoji


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## MineAreWorkingline

I am not so sure why those who find in their experience that the easiest, most effective, humane methods of training do not include prongs for the majority of puppies are always accused of being anti prong. That simply is not true. All that is being said is that there are other proven methods to be considered that many people have used with a high degree of success on some pretty tough dogs. Nobody is saying a prong is never the appropriate tool.


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## Thecowboysgirl

wolfy dog said:


> Selzer, how are you walking, playing, training 14 dogs on a flat collar? Every day all dogs? Or all of them separate? You just cannot possibly have time to work them all to their potential and thus to know them for a 100%. I guess this because I have the same amount of hours in a day as you do. If they spend a lot of time in their kennels or inside doing nothing in particular, it is easy to judge others who work their butts off with the high drive dogs.
> If your dogs are softer temperamented (you have show lines from what I remember) you just cannot judge people who have these high drive dogs. Until I got the WL GSDs I had tunnel vision in thinking that clickering was the gospel; after all it had worked beautifully with all my dogs (Whippets and many foster dogs and dogs in my class). So go ahead and write another repetitive essay to proof your point.
> This was my last post in this thread.


I have had 3 shepherds in the past 12 years. 2 still living. 1 is a working line. Probably not "high drive". But she is a working line. She has never had a prong on in her life. She has had very little correction in her life. When i got her I was indoctrinated by clicker and force free trainers and I totally drank the koolaid. 

When she was maybe 4, i did very limited E Collar proofing of her recall because there were some instances when she would choose to blow me off. She had a very good motivational recall foundation, ala Susan Garrett. E collar cured her of deer chasing and that was that.

My other rescue never used a prong. Extensive e collar due to his desire to kill stuff.

My young white dog I have used one sometimes during adolescence when he realized he was way stronger than me and he was sometimes acting like an idiot either because of squirrels or once the neighbor's dog. He is big and strong. I wanted to quickly let him know that throwing his weight around would not be tolerated. It was successful. He is not a high drive dog but he isn't a dope either. I have not used the prong to train anything for competition. No need at all. I think the only correction he has ever had regarding competition stuff was leave it for deer poop while tracking and i said "ow!" Dramatically when he mouthed me heeling even though it didn't hurt at all, i wanted him to stop and he is very sensitive about thinking he hurt someone. He would get jacked up for his ball and mouth my jacket a little. Almost like a reflex. He doesn't do that anymore. Because I said ow.


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## Nigel

selzer said:


> I keep posting because my premise is that it is not the tools it is the handlers, and often the handler's belief that they need these tools. Most don't. Might you have a dog that is totally independent and way over on the I don't care about anything scale? Sure. That is a rarity. That just isn't going to happen in nature very often.
> 
> 
> The problem is not the tools it is the human condition that screams "Yes, but my dog is..." I would bet my house and all my dogs on the vast majority of these dogs don't need a prong collar. Their owners do.
> 
> There are plenty of owners that'll take the easy way, slap on a prong and never move on from there. What percentage of the dog owning population do they represent? I have no idea.
> 
> Then you have have those that choose a prong because they know it will be the most effective tool to get the job done. It's not because they believe thier dog is some particular hard case.
> 
> That needs to be said. It needs to be read.
> 
> 
> One can be gentle and still not be permissive, it's attitude. Elena does well with horses because she has confidence and a certain attitude. And she is helping to train another horse at the barn.
> 
> 
> Probably 98 percent of problems with dogs are in the minds/attitude of their owners. And probably better than 70% of prong users think that their dog is a 2 percent-er.
> 
> 
> The problem is the human condition. If we could radically accept that, then change could be made.
> 
> 
> What I have noticed in the past 40 years, is that dogs are worse-behaved, not better behaved, since prong and e-collars became the rage. Something IS missing. Yes, we had choke chains in the seventies. No one knew how to use them, and half the folks did not know the right way to put them on. Books were written with how to put the choke chain on the dog. A choke chain may be more brutal than a prong injury wise, but it certainly never was dubbed "power steering." Once you get it on right, you still have to train the dog. And people did.
> 
> Tools available today have nothing to do with the current state of dog behavoir, at least not imop. I think the "fur baby" crowd may have more to do with this, that's my guess anyways.
> 
> I never heard of dogs or cats being mauled waiting their turn at the vet's office. Nowadays they are. Why? These are all the dogs that do not sport the correction collars??? Nope. The only dog that ever got close enough to bite one of mine was sporting both a prong and an e-collar. The problem there was DEFINITELY on the other side of the leash.
> 
> Social media and multi sources of "news" is why you hear more about these incidents. My old vet (retired) had plenty of stories from his past. Crap happened back then too, we just didn't hear about it.
> 
> Back in the day, dogs were dogs and there were realistic expectations for dogs. Back in the day, people trained their dogs and did not rely on a bunch of external aids. Trainers who started back in the dark ages, if they were any good at all, moved away from compulsion training/avoiding correction, to more motivational training and have grown with their experience. The prong collar is like training wheels to a lot of folks. The hope is that the training wheels will no longer be needed at some point, but for a lot of folks, the training wheels are good enough, and certainly it is not embarrassing to have your training wheels on when you are six or seven or fourteen or twenty eight. Not. It IS embarrassing. But folks wear around those prongs like they are as bad-explicative as their dog, like it is a badge of honor.
> 
> 
> When I see a dog on a prong, I'm cautious, moreso than when I see a dog without a prong, moreso even than when I see a dog on a flexi.
> 
> Usually I can spot potential problem dogs long before I get close enough to identify the type of collar it's wearing. In the few instances where I was unable to avoid the dog/owner, none wore a prong or ecollar.
> 
> If you are working with your fourth dog, and you needed a prong with each of them, then the problem is problem is probably on the owner-end of the leash, and it probably is time to hang up the training wheels, so you can learn to balance and give your dogs something more.


Again, it not always about need, it's about choice. People have different goals or face situations that the prong collar may be the most effective (or convenient ) tool to use, pretty simple. None of my dogs have fit into a one size fits all training routine. Different drives, thresholds, temperament and my expectations for them all factor in making my training decisions.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not so sure why those who find in their experience that the easiest, most effective, humane methods of training do not include prongs for the majority of puppies are always accused of being anti prong. That simply is not true. All that is being said is that there are other proven methods to be considered that many people have used with a high degree of success on some pretty tough dogs. Nobody is saying a prong is never the appropriate tool.


Because the implication is always the prong is - fill in the clever pejorative- and it should be a last resort, not a first choice. It always has to be something to get rid of, when that actually has no significance. Its a lack of experience that leads people to think that. I don't care what collar is on a dogs neck. The dog cares, and it all comes down to what you do with it. What exactly are you defining as success? I imagine there are things you can accomplish with tough dogs and no collar at all, but what exactly are you talking about? Anything specific so I know we're talking about the same things.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't seem to have an applause emoji.
> 
> Imagine an applause emoji





Nigel said:


> Again, it not always about need, it's about choice. People have different goals or face situations that the prong collar may be the most effective (or convenient ) tool to use, pretty simple. None of my dogs have fit into a one size fits all training routine. Different drives, thresholds, temperament and my expectations for them all factor in making my training decisions.



For me it is a choice _and_ a need. I chose to use a prong collar with my adolescent dog because he weighs as much as I DO , and it is a great choice while we are running through the city and have loose aggressive dogs near by, or heavy traffic. In those instances I _do_ consider it an actual need for his and my safety. I want complete control so that if something spooks him since he is new to the world and still learning he won't get hit by a car or make a dumb move and get bit by a dog we are running by. He is a young ANIMAL (18 months) prone to mistakes and failures. It is unrealistic to expect a large puppy of his age to not make mistakes, failures are how they learn just like us. Just like with an E collar I would rather him endure slight discomfort than be seriously injured or me injured too while running at a quick pace through a very dangerous environment. I realize A LOT of people on here don't do that every day, many live way out in the middle of no where without these kinds of dangers so maybe a prong isn't the next realistic step for them. For me I NEED my prong right now in these situations. Could he go on a flat collar and do fine? Of course. We lost our equipment a few months back and had to do just that, and he did great.. didn't pull me once. But I was not comfortable with the fact that if something serious happened he could easily over power me. He is not a nervous dog by any means, but I have been walking and had a group of teenagers jump out behind bushes and chuck fire crackers right at Gandalf, he could have easily bolted into oncoming traffic if I had not had control with my prong because he was terrified!! Again would I throw a prong on a <6 month old puppy? No because I wouldn't be running through the city with a <6 month old puppy, and I could easily over power a <6 month old puppy. But maybe your grandma cant so maybe she needs a prong!!!! I use our martingale or flat collar for strolls around the block, but for those serious moments I want my A game on. Depends on the dog, Depends on your situation .


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Steve. The implication can also be made that there are usually only two pieces of advice given on this forum at any given time, one is to get a trainer and the other is a DIY, (but not always), to put a prong on it. Read any thread. Other methods seldom get a mention and if they do, it is glossed over with glassy eyes and largely ignored because all too often newbies and those in over their heads are looking for approval to do what they already know they want to do, put a prong on it, vs what they need to do, train the dog in front of them.

If one has no intention of phasing out an aversive, why train? Why not just keep on controlling and managing? I think it has a lot of significance especially when IMO some aversives create discomfort even when not being used for training or corrections but just by their nature and application.

For the purpose of this forum and the newbies and inexperienced pet owners that come here looking for help, my comments about prongs are about them, not somebody working a dog in a venue with higher level goals.


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## LuvShepherds

Talking about old methods, we forget or are too young to remember the Koehler method of using a choke chain to yank a dog around. If the dog misbehaves, hang it for a few seconds until you get the behavior you like. I picked up a used copy of the book after I found my library had destroyed their copies. There is some useful information and a lot of things that are out of date and not used anymore. The choke chain is one of the worst tools in the hands of a beginner because it can seriously harm a dog if it pulls too hard or does not release after a correction. Now people use slip leads which use the same principal but more safely.


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Steve. The implication can also be made that there are usually only two pieces of advice given on this forum at any given time, one is to get a trainer and the other is a DIY, (but not always), to put a prong on it. Read any thread. Other methods seldom get a mention and if they do, it is glossed over with glassy eyes and largely ignored because all too often newbies and those in over their heads are looking for approval to do what they already know they want to do, put a prong on it, vs what they need to do, train the dog in front of them.
> 
> If one has no intention of phasing out an aversive, why train? Why not just keep on controlling and managing? I think it has a lot of significance especially when IMO some aversives create discomfort even when not being used for training or corrections but just by their nature and application.
> 
> For the purpose of this forum and the newbies and inexperienced pet owners that come here looking for help, my comments about prongs are about them, not somebody working a dog in a venue with higher level goals.


Ok, perfect. We're in the same context, nothing to do with any formal venue. I think that implication is wrong too, I see a lot of threads with long, thoughtful ideas and techniques explained depending on the original post, but to be honest, I never really looked at any of them as a contest to see who gets listened to. And again,there you go, put a prong on isn't training. Its just a fact that there are things that can be much easier with a prong. In some cases its depends on the dog, some things on the handler. Just the ease of the pop and release. How clear that is. Trained is trained. I define trained as a point where its done willingly and reliably. I don't know if we exactly agree on that, but that's what I look for.

At that point, the collar doesn't matter anymore. Just being on their neck doesn't have to mean any more discomfort then any other collar. How tight is it? You can cinch anything high and tight and put the same pressure on the neck. If the leash is loose and they're complying, you aren't controlling or managing. How many times on these threads have people commenting on their dogs excitement when you get out the prong?They don't do that for discomfort. 

Lets take something I'm never going to do. I'm never going to stand still and wait a pulling dog out. I don't have the patience and because of how I like to use opposition reflex in a dog that has it, its counter productive. The prong is the best choice for me to train,not control or manage. 

You have the patience to wait them out. Its the best choice for you. We're both training, but in this conversation, I'm doing my dog a disservice and ruining his quality of life. I'm not going to point out to those infamous newbies, or that un named JQP they're wasting their time doing it your way, but how many times is the prong derided? I think it was Tim that used the term "Go to" about them. Maybe there's a good reason for that, beyond what you guys want to acknowledge.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Steve. I don't look at any advice given as contests to see who gets listened to or who is right. My point was often people come here asking for advice or solutions but what they really are looking for is the approval of others. Right or wrong, they already know what they are going to do.

I did not say that a prong can't be used for training. I said that mostly what I see is prongs used for control and management. That is not the tool but how the human uses it. ?

Correct me if I am wrong, but does not a prong need to sit high up on the neck, below the ears, with little to no slack? Yes, anything placed so would create discomfort, especially something with pinching prongs.

Hmm... Just because people accidentally (or not) use classical conditioning to create associations by pairing the excitement of a walk or other fun activity to a prong doesn't mean the discomfort no longer exists. Rats will respond with enthusiasm to electric shocks if it means it's time to eat. 

This isn't about you or your dog so let's not take this personal. Let me repeat that my prong comments are for those less experienced. This thread is not about using a prong to stop a dog from pulling. It is about preemptively using a prong on a puppy just in case a puppy that does not pull just might decide to someday.


----------



## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> Selzer, how are you walking, playing, training 14 dogs on a flat collar? Every day all dogs? Or all of them separate? You just cannot possibly have time to work them all to their potential and thus to know them for a 100%. I guess this because I have the same amount of hours in a day as you do. If they spend a lot of time in their kennels or inside doing nothing in particular, it is easy to judge others who work their butts off with the high drive dogs.
> If your dogs are softer temperamented (you have show lines from what I remember) you just cannot judge people who have these high drive dogs. Until I got the WL GSDs I had tunnel vision in thinking that clickering was the gospel; after all it had worked beautifully with all my dogs (Whippets and many foster dogs and dogs in my class). So go ahead and write another repetitive essay to proof your point.
> This was my last post in this thread.


I am down to 14. It was tougher when I had 22. But, now it is not so bad. For one thing half of them are on my vet's chart for geriatric. Babs at almost 13 doesn't need training. Her training is still there. Heidi at 12 doesn't need any. I spend the majority of my time with my youngsters: Kojak, Quinn, Tinnie, and Ramona. Yep, only so many hours in the day, and actually, once the dog learns how to heel and how to sit and how to down, I can take them into the ring and get a title on them. I can then stop all training with them, and take them into the ring years later and STILL have a dog that will get a blue ribbon, both in advanced and excellent -- off lead, with jumps, and she had never done the excellent signs until after the walk-through when I went to get her out of my vehicle and did them with her in the parking lot while rushing to get in there. Tell me how training with a prong collar beats that? It doesn't. Because I see all these dogs with their prongs on year after year. 

Whatever, I titled 3 dogs in a weekend, and got a leg on a fourth, titled six by the end of the year, from July to December. No big deal. I am used to working with dogs, and am pretty amazed at how well they do respond with their limited training and limited exposure. I guaranty you I did not put the work into Quinnie that people put into dogs with prongs, and she placed every time in the ring (3 in two days). 

And, wow, we need a prong to walk two just to be safe? And I took my bitch to work with me every day for a year, in down town Cleveland, and didn't use a leash at all. Because the dog was trained and under voice control. I could walk another dog with a leash, and have her loose and healing. 

I am tired of the baloney. I know what a good dog is. I have seen my pups do all your IPO and protection stuff. They have drive. Plenty of it. 

The thing is, people are so vested in the prong collars, that they cannot bear to consider it to be counter-productive. They can't consider that maybe they would get better results if they ditch those collars. They're too afraid to. Try it without the training wheels. It isn't hard. 

And yes you can have a relationship with 14 dogs, just like you have have a relationship with a bunch of kids. You do things a little differently, but it isn't all that hard. They do not all need to run five miles before breakfast to keep them sane in a crate all day. They are running and playing all day with their kennel mate, and when I come around to take one somewhere, they are ON, 100%. They are excited, but under control. Whether we go to the vet or the pet store or the walking trail or to class, my dogs have no problem being under control. I can and have taken two at once, but I don't like that. I have to split my attention, and I don't think I or the dogs get as much out of that. So I take one at a time, unless more than one needs to go to the vet, and then I will do what I have to -- we aren't there for bonding or training, I can handle two without prongs.


----------



## selzer

WateryTart said:


> Okay trying this again. I thought I had a double post and then it turns out I didn’t.
> 
> Seltzer can you talk more about that? I’d be interestrd in knowing how that works. I am a strong proponent of train the dog in front of you, which to me also means that can change as the dog changes. When she was a puppy, she needed firmer hand and more boundaries. Now that she is older I use mostly positive methods and we are mainly teaching new skills anyway without a lot of need for me to step in with jey don’t do that.
> 
> We are working mostly on transitioning away from a prong to martingale formloose leash walking. She does reasonably well with heeling without a training collar but the loose leash skill would be nice to build. Nothing, but NOTHING is as interesting to this dog as sniffing sometimes. (Not me, not husband, not food, not anything.) obviously this is something we are working on with a trainer but I am intrigued by your use of your relationship with your dog. Does that just mean you work on being more interesting than the distractor (which is what I’m currently doing) or are there other strategies you are using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First, my name is Selzer. Please do not put a T in it. I have three names and no T anywhere. I'm sorry, but it is frustrating. 

I have trained dogs that were originally trained by others with prong collars. It makes it harder in my experience, not easier, because the dog is conditioned to listen when it hears the jingle that says it is about to get a correction or reach the points. But it can still be done. I just remove the prong and go forward. The dog and I go through a period of getting to know each other. 

I am not in any hurry. I like to take my time. I have a bunch of dogs, so the training I do do, is often done one day and a week may go by before we do another training session. The dogs are great. I think the time helps them, it doesn't hinder them. The dogs do not get bored -- another problem with over-training. So the time we spend today will be part going over what we did a week ago, part introducing something new. There will be something fun. There will be stuff in the beginning and ending of the session that the dog is likely to do well and be praised for. We do not do much, before moving on to something else. And we stop when the dog still wants to do more. 

The rest of the week I just watch and learn. Each dog has its own personality. The rest of the week there is no leash or collar, but we do stuff. It might be the run to the fridge and sit for cheese. It might be a run to the car and an ice-cream run. It might be a weigh in at the vet (need a leash for that though). I spend a lot of my time just observing the dog, until I can pretty much know what the dog is going to do before he has a chance to do anything. I am not going to use a carpenter's apron to carry all the tools for dog training, Sorry Sandi. Not doing it. 

But I learn how to motivate, mostly through praise. I "load the clicker" so to speak, but the clicker is Just my voice. In puppy classes where I do use treats, they learn the words of praise and the good tone that accompanies the treat. After that first set of puppy classes, I take a break, and when we go back, I use praise and no treats. It works for me. We might hit the ice-cream stand on the way home, and get a hot dog or an ice cream, but that is just given to the dog. Cheese from the fridge requires a butt on the ground. All other food and treats are just given to the dogs. They do fine with it. 

The thing is, some dogs need conversational tones, some need a firmer voice-correction, and some just need to repeat the command, to know it wasn't done properly. This is the kind of thing, I learn from my dogs: How to measure praise to the performance, how to praise each dog because some like a high excited voice and others do better with an even "Good Girl." Having a party with praise is sometimes indicated with some dogs. Others just need that good girl, and move on. And it is the same with corrections.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

selzer said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Selzer, how are you walking, playing, training 14 dogs on a flat collar? Every day all dogs? Or all of them separate? You just cannot possibly have time to work them all to their potential and thus to know them for a 100%. I guess this because I have the same amount of hours in a day as you do. If they spend a lot of time in their kennels or inside doing nothing in particular, it is easy to judge others who work their butts off with the high drive dogs.
> If your dogs are softer temperamented (you have show lines from what I remember) you just cannot judge people who have these high drive dogs. Until I got the WL GSDs I had tunnel vision in thinking that clickering was the gospel; after all it had worked beautifully with all my dogs (Whippets and many foster dogs and dogs in my class). So go ahead and write another repetitive essay to proof your point.
> This was my last post in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I am down to 14. It was tougher when I had 22. But, now it is not so bad. For one thing half of them are on my vet's chart for geriatric. Babs at almost 13 doesn't need training. Her training is still there. Heidi at 12 doesn't need any. I spend the majority of my time with my youngsters: Kojak, Quinn, Tinnie, and Ramona. Yep, only so many hours in the day, and actually, once the dog learns how to heel and how to sit and how to down, I can take them into the ring and get a title on them. I can then stop all training with them, and take them into the ring years later and STILL have a dog that will get a blue ribbon, both in advanced and excellent -- off lead, with jumps, and she had never done the excellent signs until after the walk-through when I went to get her out of my vehicle and did them with her in the parking lot while rushing to get in there. Tell me how training with a prong collar beats that? It doesn't. Because I see all these dogs with their prongs on year after year.
> 
> Whatever, I titled 3 dogs in a weekend, and got a leg on a fourth, titled six by the end of the year, from July to December. No big deal. I am used to working with dogs, and am pretty amazed at how well they do respond with their limited training and limited exposure. I guaranty you I did not put the work into Quinnie that people put into dogs with prongs, and she placed every time in the ring (3 in two days).
> 
> And, wow, we need a prong to walk two just to be safe? And I took my bitch to work with me every day for a year, in down town Cleveland, and didn't use a leash at all. Because the dog was trained and under voice control. I could walk another dog with a leash, and have her loose and healing.
> 
> I am tired of the baloney. I know what a good dog is. I have seen my pups do all your IPO and protection stuff. They have drive. Plenty of it.
> 
> The thing is, people are so vested in the prong collars, that they cannot bear to consider it to be counter-productive. They can't consider that maybe they would get better results if they ditch those collars. They're too afraid to. Try it without the training wheels. It isn't hard.
> 
> And yes you can have a relationship with 14 dogs, just like you have have a relationship with a bunch of kids. You do things a little differently, but it isn't all that hard. They do not all need to run five miles before breakfast to keep them sane in a crate all day. They are running and playing all day with their kennel mate, and when I come around to take one somewhere, they are ON, 100%. They are excited, but under control. Whether we go to the vet or the pet store or the walking trail or to class, my dogs have no problem being under control. I can and have taken two at once, but I don't like that. I have to split my attention, and I don't think I or the dogs get as much out of that. So I take one at a time, unless more than one needs to go to the vet, and then I will do what I have to -- we aren't there for bonding or training, I can handle two without prongs.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what prong collars have to do with training for rally. 

But I will say this. If somebody with a super bored barely trained pet dog went to a rally class because a prong made the dog temporarily manageable, and they wouldn't have had the nerve to go to class with dog pulling on a flat collar, then I say slap a prong on and go do something with your dog! Chances are as tbe dog gets out a little more you won't need the prong anymore and you and the dog will be happier.

Lastly. Rally itself does NOT engage drive in the dog like some other sports do. So training for it is just not the same thing. A dog holding a stay for recall in rally...heck even vs holding a stay on the dock for dock diving, whole different ball game. I think the same with IPO, the dog is really fired up and really WANTS something, that just doesn't happen in rally. Although i used my dog's ball drive to train his obedience for rally but that just makes his engagement better than a lot of dogs i see doing rally or akc ob.

I also maintain that it is somewhat a numbers game...how often do you take your dog to new situations, how often is your dog offleash in nature, what kind of nature. On public trails i have seen deer much less than on my own property. They know where the people are. My dogs are offleash in my woods full of wild life every single day. Therefore, we encounter wildlife WAY more than say selzer's dogs probably do.

Anyway. If anybody has great control of their dogs without prongs or e collars good for you. I am happy for anyone who has great control of their dogs. And if you want to use a prong or an e collar to get better control or achieve some goal in training...good for you, glad you are doing something with your dog. I hope ppl are fair with those tools, otherwise, to each his own


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## cliffson1

Performance cars and regular cars have vastly different equipment( safety and structural) and usually skill set of person operating them. Neither would be safe or effective without these features. 
Until folks really understand the VARIANCE in both dogs, and people’s owner/training level, you cannot make absolute statements about which tool is most effective, humane, or necessary.
I personally have not used a pinch collar for the past 10 years in obedience training or anything else. Yet, in private consultations or my obedience classes I have sometimes strongly recommended the use of pinch collar for the family or training BECAUSE in these situations factoring in the ability or capabilities of those involved it is the best tool available for what is trying to be achieved. 
So would I say that a pinch is a necessary tool?, no I would be a hypocrite based on my notneeding/using one; would I say never using a pinch a best option in a situation?, noo, I would be a hypocrite because there are many situations in which it is best option factoring in the other elements. ( Nothing worse than seeing a dog that is totally too much or unresponsive to training or handling techniques that the dog ignores)
In my 45 plus years, I have seldom if ever found extreme or absolute attitudes towards dogs, training, or tools as being best for all situations.....but that’s my limited experiences.


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## Aly

cliffson1 said:


> In my 45 plus years, I have seldom if ever found extreme or absolute attitudes towards dogs, training, or tools as being best for all situations.....but that’s my limited experiences.


Thank you, Cliff.

Aly


----------



## WateryTart

selzer said:


> First, my name is Selzer. Please do not put a T in it. I have three names and no T anywhere. I'm sorry, but it is frustrating.
> 
> I have trained dogs that were originally trained by others with prong collars. It makes it harder in my experience, not easier, because the dog is conditioned to listen when it hears the jingle that says it is about to get a correction or reach the points. But it can still be done. I just remove the prong and go forward. The dog and I go through a period of getting to know each other.
> 
> I am not in any hurry. I like to take my time. I have a bunch of dogs, so the training I do do, is often done one day and a week may go by before we do another training session. The dogs are great. I think the time helps them, it doesn't hinder them. The dogs do not get bored -- another problem with over-training. So the time we spend today will be part going over what we did a week ago, part introducing something new. There will be something fun. There will be stuff in the beginning and ending of the session that the dog is likely to do well and be praised for. We do not do much, before moving on to something else. And we stop when the dog still wants to do more.
> 
> The rest of the week I just watch and learn. Each dog has its own personality. The rest of the week there is no leash or collar, but we do stuff. It might be the run to the fridge and sit for cheese. It might be a run to the car and an ice-cream run. It might be a weigh in at the vet (need a leash for that though). I spend a lot of my time just observing the dog, until I can pretty much know what the dog is going to do before he has a chance to do anything. I am not going to use a carpenter's apron to carry all the tools for dog training, Sorry Sandi. Not doing it.
> 
> But I learn how to motivate, mostly through praise. I "load the clicker" so to speak, but the clicker is Just my voice. In puppy classes where I do use treats, they learn the words of praise and the good tone that accompanies the treat. After that first set of puppy classes, I take a break, and when we go back, I use praise and no treats. It works for me. We might hit the ice-cream stand on the way home, and get a hot dog or an ice cream, but that is just given to the dog. Cheese from the fridge requires a butt on the ground. All other food and treats are just given to the dogs. They do fine with it.
> 
> The thing is, some dogs need conversational tones, some need a firmer voice-correction, and some just need to repeat the command, to know it wasn't done properly. This is the kind of thing, I learn from my dogs: How to measure praise to the performance, how to praise each dog because some like a high excited voice and others do better with an even "Good Girl." Having a party with praise is sometimes indicated with some dogs. Others just need that good girl, and move on. And it is the same with corrections.




Sorry, seltzer, I’m on my phone and the autocorrect is on. If I’m on a computer it’s a different story but my phone will just change stuff. And I’m not on the form from a computer much anymore.

I like the basic idea of that approach as we move toward a different training paradigm, parts of that may work for her. But we do a lot of stuff. We are training in actual classes three or four days a week, so ill have to adapt around that. I do try to keep at home stuff fun and lower key and I do try to adapt my voice to what she needs in the moment. Most of what she needs is conversational or upbeat and that’s if, but every now and then she does need me to throw my voice a little more as a reminder. Hmm. Stuff to think about. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Strom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Steve. I don't look at any advice given as contests to see who gets listened to or who is right. My point was often people come here asking for advice or solutions but what they really are looking for is the approval of others. Right or wrong, they already know what they are going to do.
> 
> I did not say that a prong can't be used for training. I said that mostly what I see is prongs used for control and management. That is not the tool but how the human uses it. ?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but does not a prong need to sit high up on the neck, below the ears, with little to no slack? Yes, anything placed so would create discomfort, especially something with pinching prongs.
> 
> Hmm... Just because people accidentally (or not) use classical conditioning to create associations by pairing the excitement of a walk or other fun activity to a prong doesn't mean the discomfort no longer exists. Rats will respond with enthusiasm to electric shocks if it means it's time to eat.
> 
> This isn't about you or your dog so let's not take this personal. Let me repeat that my prong comments are for those less experienced. This thread is not about using a prong to stop a dog from pulling. It is about preemptively using a prong on a puppy just in case a puppy that does not pull just might decide to someday.


The best thing I can do is explain through my personal experience and why I do something, and since pulling has come up on the thread I thought that would be a good example. Some people put the prong up high, just as many don't. It has to be tight enough so that it won't easily come apart, which isn't tight enough to come close to discomfort. 

We can point out people doing something wrong or not as good all day, in everything. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything any certain way like I do, but on my exit from the rabbit hole, the reason we're going to talk around each other is right there in your post. You say preemptive, I say introductory.


----------



## Steve Strom

> Hmm... Just because people accidentally (or not) use classical conditioning to create associations by pairing the excitement of a walk or other fun activity to a prong doesn't mean the discomfort no longer exists. Rats will respond with enthusiasm to electric shocks if it means it's time to eat.


I forgot something, and I should probably just leave it forgot, but I thought the association has an effect of lessening discomfort? So that change in perception means they can tolerate it to a point of it being no big deal, not they seek out the pain to get the food? So the dog doesn't seek the pain or view it as pain anymore once its been associated, unless you change the degree of, I don't know, pressure or a harder pop? In layman terms, I'm not beating them up with it, so its not a big deal.


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## car2ner

I am glad to see how many people on this thread are not All-or-Nothing kind of trainers. Many of you say, "here is my preference> Your mileage may vary". Use what works, and by golly learn how to use each tool properly. But even how to use a tool changes with what the goal is.

For those who would push to the extreme of "I would never" or "I always cause it always works for me", someday you may have to eat those words. (unless it comes to beating dogs. I think we all draw the line firmly on that one) I was listening to a podcast about dog training and it seems a number of good / decent trainers get burnt out from not only difficult clients but from other trainers arguing over what technique is best. The "How dare you do that" mentality may cause us to loose some good mentors in the dog training world. 

My 2 Cents. I never used a prong collar before my big-boy. He knows he can yank me around. I use it as a reminder. I've worn the collar around my own neck and forgot I had it on when I went in to a store (It was the most convenient way to carry it that day) If someone had yanked me with it, I'm sure I'd have remembered it. 

Would I rather walk my dogs with a martingale or float collar? sure. Then one day my gal dog got over excited seeing my big-boy and wanted desperately to get to him. The martingale dug into her throat and I found myself thinking, "If she had her prong on she wouldn't be pulling that hard and hurting herself". To be honest, most of the time she does just fine with the martingale. 
I don't plan on ever using an e-collar. But I remind myself to never say never. I have used a choke chain. Used properly I can count on one hand how often the "choke" happened and even then it was for a very short period. My dogs had good happy lives. Would I use one now? No, I don't think scaring the dog into submission is the best way to go but if I had no other option, yes I'd use a choke chain or dominant dog collar. 
Do i wish I could always leave the house without treats or toys? Sure and sometimes I do. I also don't fool myself into thinking I am the most interesting thing out there and being my buddy trumps all other things, even if it is only momentary distractions. Sometimes it isn't pulling that is the problem. Sometimes it is not moving because a smell is too delightful. Sometimes a surprise can be temporarily overwhelming. 

In a perfect world my dogs would be trotting near me off leash all the time. But the world isn't perfect, nor are my dogs and neither am I. We still try though. goals are good.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Steve, you are taking this way too personal. I will agree with your first post, we see things from different perspectives, and just want to add regarding the second, it depends on the dog and the trainer.


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## Steve Strom

Lol, nah. I don't anything personal. I just try to stick to what I have experience with. I don't think I should talk about things I haven't done in a way that implies I have, and because I don't take take things personal, I'll use myself as an example.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I have seen dogs change demeanor when having harnesses and head halters put on. Mostly head halters. Even tho it means going for a walk. In my experience more dogs change demeanor over head halters than prongs and e collars.

I absolutely agree with whoever said absolutely no never isnt that helpful in dog training. I used to say that kind of a lot until I encountered dogs who just weren't turning around. My best example of that is my killer dog who learned yo live without killing and be safe (with supervision) around livestock. Prior to that dog I said no never to e collars. I don't think for a minute that dog would have had the long happy life he had if not for the e collar. So that pretty much shot up my black and white thinking and I began to feel that there is all sorts of middle ground on the issues of tools and techniques.

I believe there are times when the ends justify the means

Times when as steve said, it's just not that big of a deal

The force free trainers talk as if one correction will ruin your dog and your bond with your dog. Well. Me and my dog got tangled up and I stepped on my dog's foot on the way into the competition ring once. Bad. He hollered, so I know I hurt him. He has never hollered like that from a correction i have ever given him. He walked it off and forgot it ever happened. No association to me, the place, no impact on his performance in the ring. That's as bad as he has ever been "hurt", by me where I know he knew I did it, and it has had zero impact on our lives.

I saw a post from Ivan B not that long ago saying something like yes you can correct your dog and the dog will be ok. 

I feel they know what our true intentions are and I feel the over all relationship effects how they percieve what we do. My dogs love me and trust me, we enjoy each other and have a lot of fun. Most of everything we do together is tons of fun and we are all very happy. Sometimes they get a correction or train with whatever tool and i use it however the most fair way is I can think of to use it and that's that. It reallt doesn't seem to impact the overal quality of life for the worse and sometimes it does for the better

Maybe someday i will change my mind on all this because I have before. So I won't even say no never will I ever stop using prongs or E Collars.


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't understand what prong collars have to do with training for rally.
> 
> But I will say this. If somebody with a super bored barely trained pet dog went to a rally class because a prong made the dog temporarily manageable, and they wouldn't have had the nerve to go to class with dog pulling on a flat collar, then I say slap a prong on and go do something with your dog! Chances are as tbe dog gets out a little more you won't need the prong anymore and you and the dog will be happier.
> 
> Lastly. Rally itself does NOT engage drive in the dog like some other sports do. So training for it is just not the same thing. A dog holding a stay for recall in rally...heck even vs holding a stay on the dock for dock diving, whole different ball game. I think the same with IPO, the dog is really fired up and really WANTS something, that just doesn't happen in rally. Although i used my dog's ball drive to train his obedience for rally but that just makes his engagement better than a lot of dogs i see doing rally or akc ob.
> 
> I also maintain that it is somewhat a numbers game...how often do you take your dog to new situations, how often is your dog offleash in nature, what kind of nature. On public trails i have seen deer much less than on my own property. They know where the people are. My dogs are offleash in my woods full of wild life every single day. Therefore, we encounter wildlife WAY more than say selzer's dogs probably do.
> 
> Anyway. If anybody has great control of their dogs without prongs or e collars good for you. I am happy for anyone who has great control of their dogs. And if you want to use a prong or an e collar to get better control or achieve some goal in training...good for you, glad you are doing something with your dog. I hope ppl are fair with those tools, otherwise, to each his own


Not sure if I mentioned Rally. It is my preferred sport because my hearing is going, but I also title in Obedience. Whoo Hoo. I have also done agility, and herding. I live in the country, and my mangies do deter wildlife a lot of the time. But we do see lots of ground hogs, and other critters that my dogs are very interested in. We don't see a lot of deer out here, because people hunt them. They are fast, and sneaky, and suicidal, and come out at dusk and dawn. Mostly they run in front of my car. So far I have gotten 9. With my cars. Did I mention I do not like deer? Whatever. I have been able to call dogs to heel when they have kicked up rabbit or squirrel and are at full flight. That's training and relationship. Has nothing to do with drive. 

As for slap a prong on your dog and go to Rally classes? I hope not! The rest of us want to work in these classes without some untrained idiot of a dog with an untrained idiot owner making it dangerous for us, and slowing us down. Rally classes are for dogs that already have the basics down, and can already work around other dogs and people. One shouldn't need a prong collar to do those simple things. You can't use the pointy collar in the ring, so why get dependent on it? That's crazy.


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have seen dogs change demeanor when having harnesses and head halters put on. Mostly head halters. Even tho it means going for a walk. In my experience more dogs change demeanor over head halters than prongs and e collars.
> 
> I absolutely agree with whoever said absolutely no never isnt that helpful in dog training. I used to say that kind of a lot until I encountered dogs who just weren't turning around. My best example of that is my killer dog who learned yo live without killing and be safe (with supervision) around livestock. Prior to that dog I said no never to e collars. I don't think for a minute that dog would have had the long happy life he had if not for the e collar. So that pretty much shot up my black and white thinking and I began to feel that there is all sorts of middle ground on the issues of tools and techniques.
> 
> I believe there are times when the ends justify the means
> 
> Times when as steve said, it's just not that big of a deal
> 
> The force free trainers talk as if one correction will ruin your dog and your bond with your dog. Well. Me and my dog got tangled up and I stepped on my dog's foot on the way into the competition ring once. Bad. He hollered, so I know I hurt him. He has never hollered like that from a correction i have ever given him. He walked it off and forgot it ever happened. No association to me, the place, no impact on his performance in the ring. That's as bad as he has ever been "hurt", by me where I know he knew I did it, and it has had zero impact on our lives.
> 
> I saw a post from Ivan B not that long ago saying something like yes you can correct your dog and the dog will be ok.
> 
> I feel they know what our true intentions are and I feel the over all relationship effects how they percieve what we do. My dogs love me and trust me, we enjoy each other and have a lot of fun. Most of everything we do together is tons of fun and we are all very happy. Sometimes they get a correction or train with whatever tool and i use it however the most fair way is I can think of to use it and that's that. It reallt doesn't seem to impact the overal quality of life for the worse and sometimes it does for the better
> 
> Maybe someday i will change my mind on all this because I have before. So I won't even say no never will I ever stop using prongs or E Collars.


I agree about head-halters. Dogs don't like them. I won't use them because if I were to correct (yes, I do) a dog can be injured so easily with a head halter on. Most folks probably shouldn't use these for this reason.


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## selzer

WateryTart said:


> Sorry, seltzer, I’m on my phone and the autocorrect is on. If I’m on a computer it’s a different story but my phone will just change stuff. And I’m not on the form from a computer much anymore.
> 
> I like the basic idea of that approach as we move toward a different training paradigm, parts of that may work for her. But we do a lot of stuff. We are training in actual classes three or four days a week, so ill have to adapt around that. I do try to keep at home stuff fun and lower key and I do try to adapt my voice to what she needs in the moment. Most of what she needs is conversational or upbeat and that’s if, but every now and then she does need me to throw my voice a little more as a reminder. Hmm. Stuff to think about. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then STOP using my name! It is pissing me off big time, and YOU know this. We have had this conversation. I find it incredibly rude. It is my name. It matters to me. It is six simple letters, but if you are using some form of technology that is likely to massacre names, then do not use names. Call me Sue. That is also my name. Your phone won't [your choice] with it.


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## selzer

What???? Mods here do not have Timmy and Lassie-type dogs all the time???? :grin2:

I am not all or nothing. I can't use the collars in AKC shows, so I have no desire to get dependent on them. I do not think they are hurting the dogs. I think they have a great tendency to limit the owners. That is my beef with them. I think you can go farther, more reliably and even quicker without them, but folks are so set on them, that they cannot consider the concept. Whatever. I really don't care what people do with their dogs. You say we can all agree on not beating dogs? Well, there was a time when that was considered the way to go. Have you read Lad, a dog or The Call of the Wild? Well changes do happen. I bet folks were just as set on choke chains, or even beating dogs, and those attitudes changed. 





car2ner said:


> I am glad to see how many people on this thread are not All-or-Nothing kind of trainers. Many of you say, "here is my preference> Your mileage may vary". Use what works, and by golly learn how to use each tool properly. But even how to use a tool changes with what the goal is.
> 
> For those who would push to the extreme of "I would never" or "I always cause it always works for me", someday you may have to eat those words. (unless it comes to beating dogs. I think we all draw the line firmly on that one) I was listening to a podcast about dog training and it seems a number of good / decent trainers get burnt out from not only difficult clients but from other trainers arguing over what technique is best. The "How dare you do that" mentality may cause us to loose some good mentors in the dog training world.
> 
> My 2 Cents. I never used a prong collar before my big-boy. He knows he can yank me around. I use it as a reminder. I've worn the collar around my own neck and forgot I had it on when I went in to a store (It was the most convenient way to carry it that day) If someone had yanked me with it, I'm sure I'd have remembered it.
> 
> Would I rather walk my dogs with a martingale or float collar? sure. Then one day my gal dog got over excited seeing my big-boy and wanted desperately to get to him. The martingale dug into her throat and I found myself thinking, "If she had her prong on she wouldn't be pulling that hard and hurting herself". To be honest, most of the time she does just fine with the martingale.
> I don't plan on ever using an e-collar. But I remind myself to never say never. I have used a choke chain. Used properly I can count on one hand how often the "choke" happened and even then it was for a very short period. My dogs had good happy lives. Would I use one now? No, I don't think scaring the dog into submission is the best way to go but if I had no other option, yes I'd use a choke chain or dominant dog collar.
> Do i wish I could always leave the house without treats or toys? Sure and sometimes I do. I also don't fool myself into thinking I am the most interesting thing out there and being my buddy trumps all other things, even if it is only momentary distractions. Sometimes it isn't pulling that is the problem. Sometimes it is not moving because a smell is too delightful. Sometimes a surprise can be temporarily overwhelming.
> 
> In a perfect world my dogs would be trotting near me off leash all the time. But the world isn't perfect, nor are my dogs and neither am I. We still try though. goals are good.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> Then STOP using my name! It is pissing me off big time, and YOU know this. We have had this conversation. I find it incredibly rude. It is my name. It matters to me. It is six simple letters, but if you are using some form of technology that is likely to massacre names, then do not use names. Call me Sue. That is also my name. Your phone won't [your choice] with it.




Sorry, didn’t know it did that again. I typed and hit list and was done. I wasn’t trying to be rude, my phone autocorrects, there’s nothing more sinister than that. I don’t know what else to tell you other than I’m not doing it on purpose. It’s a little unfair to get so mad about an accidental mistake. I will try to remember to say sue instead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## car2ner

selzer said:


> What???? I do not think they are hurting the dogs. I think they have a great tendency to limit the owners. That is my beef with them.



I would have to agree with you there. We get stuck using what works, even if something might work even better, or at least works in an optional way. Similar to the ideas tossed around in the latest podcast of Dog Training Conversations.


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## Steve Strom

car2ner said:


> I would have to agree with you there. We get stuck using what works, even if something might work even better, or at least works in an optional way. Similar to the ideas tossed around in the latest podcast of Dog Training Conversations.


I've tried something new with every dog I've had just for the fun of it, but stuck with what works? If it works, that's the point, atnd I'tm ntot wtorried atbout wthat stomeone wthose ntever dtone stomething tthinks atbout itt.


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## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> I've tried something new with every dog I've had just for the fun of it, but stuck with what works? If it works, that's the point, atnd I'tm ntot wtorried atbout wthat stomeone wthose ntever dtone stomething tthinks atbout itt.



Steve...you're stuttering. It's time to go train the dog. :wink2::grin2:


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> The thing is, people are so vested in the prong collars, that they cannot bear to consider it to be counter-productive. They can't consider that maybe they would get better results if they ditch those collars. They're too afraid to. Try it without the training wheels. It isn't hard.


There's a world of difference between being dependent on a device and using one to train a certain behavior. OP's first post doesn't give any indication that the dog or the handler is dependent on a prong.



wolfy dog said:


> So now at almost 7 months old and in full blown adolescence, *I can walk him on any collar* and he walks as if he wears the prong. He never knew the alternative. Will post some amazing progress in the next thread to stay on topic.


What's really sad about this thread is a brag of sorts became the basis for a debate. Nothing wrong with debates but this thread shouldn't have been used for one.


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> Steve...you're stuttering. It's time to go train the dog. :wink2::grin2:


I quit, he may become dependent on it.


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## Slamdunc

I’ve avoided this thread, but I will add my thoughts on prong collar use. There is nothing wrong with the proper use of a prong collar. I view a prong collar the same way I view power steering or antilock brakes on a car. Some of us may remember what it was like to drive a car with out power steering. Modern cars are much more responsive and easier to handle thanks to the improvements in technology. I will never buy another car with out AWD, even on a sedan. If you have driven a vehicle at high speeds or a performance car you quickly learn to appreciate what ABS, AWD, traction control, etc offers and the benefits. If all you do is drive down a country road to Church and the grocery store on Sundays, well you may not have an appreciation for the technology and equipment. 

The same goes for handling, working and training our dogs. Simply put, a prong collar may give a novice handler with a GSD a sense of confidence and a higher degree of control. This means the dog and handler can go more places and do more things. That is the goal. Do all dogs need a prong, certainly not. Is there anything wrong with a dog wearing a prong on a walk, no there is not. Are prong collars super uncomfortable for a dog, I don’t think so. Except, for maybe the very soft and sensitive dogs. If that is the case, don’t use it. 

I track my dogs in a prong collar. I have even done bitework in a prong. Properly fitted and used it causes no drop in drive or discomfort with my dogs. My dogs wear a prong for every walk. They are well trained and I could handle them with out a prong collar, I choose not too. 

This whole dependence thing is a bit of a myth to me. Training is needed regardless of the dog’s collar. The collar should not be a crutch used instead of doing obedience training. 

Yes, while many GSD’s can easily be handled, worked and trained with out a leash or collar, some can not. Some owners lack the skills needed to easily handle or train even a soft or medium drive dog. To them their dog is out of control and hard to handle. Their perception is their reality. I’ve had my hands on all types of GSD’s. Some of the stuff posted about training dogs on flat collars will not work with all dogs. It certainly will not work with the dogs I own and handle. To generalize is naive.


I had to edit this post, that darn autocorrect changed "prong" to "print" collar. It also added in some extra "T's". At least it didn't change "thing" to "thong", that has happened in text messages and the whole intent of the message was altered.


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## Steve Strom

I don't know why saying "Its different" is like throwing down the gauntlet.


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## Sunsilver

Well said, Jim!


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## Thecowboysgirl

Bahahahaha I texted somebody about a thong just this week. Not what I wrote, thanks, autocorrect!


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## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> Their perception is their reality.


:thumbup:


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## gsdluvr

Slamdunc said:


> Some of the stuff posted about training dogs on flat collars will not work with all dogs. It certainly will not work with the dogs I own and handle. *To generalize is naive.
> *
> 
> .


Yup!


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## selzer

And now we have gotten to things and thongs. Just glad I wasn't drinking coffee. Thanks for the laugh! 

But, SELZER has NO T in it. No T. It matters to me. Everyone has a line they don't like crossed. That's mine. One of them. Usually, I bite my lip and let it slide. But when the moon and the stars line up just so, firecrackers start going off in my brain when I see a T sitting in the middle of my name. 

That almost rhymes.


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## Femfa

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, while many GSD’s can easily be handled, worked and trained with out a leash or collar, some can not. *Some owners lack the skills needed to easily handle or train even a soft or medium drive dog. To them their dog is out of control and hard to handle. Their perception is their reality.* I’ve had my hands on all types of GSD’s. Some of the stuff posted about training dogs on flat collars will not work with all dogs. It certainly will not work with the dogs I own and handle. To generalize is naive.


This speaks to me on a very personal level. My girl isn't hard to handle, but she is to me. She's not high drive or necessarily very low drive. She's not as soft as I like to say she is, because in reality I'm just a big ol' soft newbie. I can imagine in the right hands, she would be a way better dog than what I can make her be. I am still learning what it means it motivate and handle a dog that is medium drive. It's not as easy as a high drive dog, but not as hard in other ways either. Same goes for the lower end of the spectrum. But it involves a lot more of everything on my part. More praise. More engagement. More correction. Sometimes I don't know how I feel about it because I just don't know enough. I don't know if I have that one thing that makes her go, "ah, yep, that's exactly what I want and I'll do whatever it is to get it". That changes on the daily, and I'm not experienced enough to always catch what that is and make it happen the way I want it to. 

When I put more in, I get more in. But I'm still learning. And it's hard, because I'm doing things I thought I'd never do before. But I'm getting the results I was aiming for, and so long as my dog still loves me at the end of the day and we can continue to work towards the goal I want, I'm going to continue.

Ultimately, when you accumulate experience and you learn from your mistakes and successes, the most wonderful thing you can do is share. Even if people don't agree with it. Because more likely than not, there's someone sitting in the back wondering if that's something they could do, and you just gave them the information and courage to try to be successful on their own.


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## Beau's Mom

Yes, what she said ?.

I’m sure any one of you could handle Beau without a prong collar, and probably train him to do almost anything. He is scary smart, softish and very handler sensitive, medium-high energy but able to settle, high toy and prey drive and usually likes to learn. He’s sweet and eager to please. Yet once he hit adolescence, he was too much for me, just completely out of control all the time the moment we left the house. 

I keep writing pages and pages and then deleting them, don’t want to hijack the thread. Just know that I eventually sought help cuz he couldn’t *go* anywhere, and that was just so wrong. I’ve now been to 4 professional trainers, all different styles but all of whom immediately recommended a prong collar. None of them told me it wasn’t the *dog* who needed it, though. I wish they had -I might’ve examined my end of the leash more frankly, and earlier in the game. This thread has actually inspired me to do just that.

So thanks all of you, on all sides of the debate, for spending the time you have on this!


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## selzer

Beau's Mom said:


> Yes, what she said ?.
> 
> I’m sure any one of you could handle Beau without a prong collar, and probably train him to do almost anything. He is scary smart, softish and very handler sensitive, medium-high energy but able to settle, high toy and prey drive and usually likes to learn. He’s sweet and eager to please. Yet once he hit adolescence, he was too much for me, just completely out of control all the time the moment we left the house.
> 
> I keep writing pages and pages and then deleting them, don’t want to hijack the thread. Just know that I eventually sought help cuz he couldn’t *go* anywhere, and that was just so wrong. I’ve now been to 4 professional trainers, all different styles but all of whom immediately recommended a prong collar. None of them told me it wasn’t the *dog* who needed it, though. I wish they had -I might’ve examined my end of the leash more frankly, and earlier in the game. This thread has actually inspired me to do just that.
> 
> So thanks all of you, on all sides of the debate, for spending the time you have on this!


And this is the problem with trainers and vets and groomers. If they tell us something the wrong way, they will lose a customer. And, they may not, but they do not know that. A lot of vets will not tell their clients that they are feeding their dog too much, and that he needs diet and exercise because the people will leave in a huff and never come back. That's really, REALLY bad. So, my vet will not tell me if something I am allowing to happen, that I could change, that IS going to affect my dog's life, because I MIGHT get offended and leave or even give them a bad review. 

I am totally opposite. I have to ask, flat out, "Weight, OK?" STILL, I've been lied to. Rushie was 105 pounds when I got him back from the Judge's folks, he looked like a coffee table. He was always 78-82 pounds with me. I effected his mobility and he had good hips and elbows. 

As for trainers. Yeah, if they say prong-collar as one of their first choices, I would be outta there. That's me. Prong collars work. They do. There is no denying it. I can put a prong collar on my dog without paying a trainer to tell me to do that. The trainers I use DO suggest prong collars to some owners. They have a lot of other ideas and do not rely heavily on prongs to keep a class in order though.


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## Beau's Mom

Thanks, selzer, that’s been a source of mild frustration for me, too. I suppose a trainer might lose a client for speaking too plainly, I hadn’t thought of that. Well, I wouldn’t want someone to call me names or curse at me, but otherwise I like direct. I don’t mind being told that I’ve got a lot to learn, especially since that’s what I’ve come to do. Will make that clear to trainer #5.

Wow, 105 -> 78, big difference! What a relief that must have been for his joints. 

I’ve really made some kind of cognitive leap reading this thread. Just hope I can apply it now in practice. Again, thanks!


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