# Trouble getting dog into crate in car



## Teale (Nov 24, 2020)

So at the beginning of last year I invested in a Ruffland Kennel crate for my boy for in the car. He did grate with it for the first few months, but then late last summer I took him out on a hike that we've done a couple many times, and it was a fine until we got back to the car and he refused to jump into the crate. I spent a good twenty minutes trying to get him in, but he refused to. He ended up riding in the back seat home.

I thought maybe it was a fluke, but he continued to refuse to get into the crate when we were out.

I took the crate out since we aren't spending as much time away from our property with the cold weather, and have had it in the house. I've been re-conditioning him to it since he seemed somewhat fearful of it and he has no problem getting into it in the house now. So I moved it into the car, and had him practice jumping in and out several times without going anywhere and he does fine with that for the most part. He's still hesitant at first, but once he's in, he'll go back and forth on command several times no problem.

I tried taking him out using the crate for the first time in a while and he got in at home just fine, and then when it was time to load up to come back home he refused to get in.

I've tried using a high value treat, like raw meat (which he goes crazy for) and he will still refuse. He also won't let me pick him up. As best as I can tell, he's just afraid, but only once we're away from home.

Has anyone else had this issue with their shepherd? Do you have any advice for me?


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

Teale said:


> Has anyone else had this issue with their shepherd? Do you have any advice for me?


Negative reinforcement.


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

markdog said:


> Negative reinforcement.


I dont think that would necessarily work in this case? Charlie had trouble getting into the car for a bit and any sort of negative reinforcement just caused him to shut down, I think this dog may be fearful or cautious of actually riding in the crate during trips, which you'd never want to use NR for


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Don't want to get into a crate/safety debate but why do you need it if the dog is fearful of it or prefers the back seat?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Don't want to get into a crate/safety debate but why do you need it if the dog is fearful of it or prefers the back seat?


Because in an accident, he will become a projectile and can land on the back of people’s head and kill them.
😈 No need for debate.


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

peachygeorgia said:


> I dont think that would necessarily work in this case? Charlie had trouble getting into the car for a bit and any sort of negative reinforcement just caused him to shut down, I think this dog may be fearful or cautious of actually riding in the crate during trips, which you'd never want to use NR for


Here is fearful dog - notice the rattle jug trick he uses







5:45 is reactive mastiff getting crate training - using negative reinforcement with leash pressure


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

markdog said:


> Here is fearful dog - notice the rattle jug trick he uses
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hmm, interesting, although I cant say rattling a jug would even phase Charlie to get into something he didn't want to LOL

thanks for sharing though, maybe the OP could try it out once PR is exhausted


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

There may be some fear but according to OP the dog got his way the first time and the incorrect behavior was reinforced.



Teale said:


> So at the beginning of last year I invested in a Ruffland Kennel crate for my boy for in the car. He did grate with it for the first few months, but then late last summer I took him out on a hike that we've done a couple many times, and it was a fine until we got back to the car and he refused to jump into the crate. I spent a good twenty minutes trying to get him in, but he refused to. He ended up riding in the back seat home.


When I give dog command such as "crate" I enforce it or I don't give a command at all


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## Teale (Nov 24, 2020)

markdog said:


> There may be some fear but according to OP the dog got his way the first time and the incorrect behavior was reinforced.
> 
> 
> 
> When I give dog command such as "crate" I enforce it or I don't give a command at all



Thanks for the suggestion! I don't feel like negative reinforcement would help, but I'll do some research and try what I can.

I also reinforce every command that I give. However with this one, I am physically incapable of reinforcing it due to him being an 85 pound dog who doesn't like being picked up and me being not much bigger than him.


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## Teale (Nov 24, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Don't want to get into a crate/safety debate but why do you need it if the dog is fearful of it or prefers the back seat?


Well, I have several reasons
1. I believe that crating is the safest option in case of an accident. Plus I spent a lot of money on it, so I'd really like to use it.
2. I don't have to worry about him trying to get up front with me or distract me while I'm driving, therefore making it safer for both of us.
3. We're working through some reactivity right now, and if he can see another dog through the window he goes crazy. This prevents.
4. And lastly, it helps me keep my car a little bit cleaner.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Teale said:


> Thanks for the suggestion! I don't feel like negative reinforcement would help, but I'll do some research and try what I can.
> 
> I also reinforce every command that I give. However with this one, I am physically incapable of reinforcing it due to him being an 85 pound dog who doesn't like being picked up and me being not much bigger than him.


Are you familiar with negative reinforcement? 

It's not positive punishment.

Just making sure you understand the concept.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

You let him loose in the car where this highly intelligent, dominant, confident animal watched you drive. Now he is ready to drive. Sorry. They are like 14 year olds that think they can drive after watching you and no longer want anything to do with a car seat. You pretty much have to start all over again training them, and even that is not always going to work. Maybe a harness in the back seat????


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> You let him loose in the car where this highly intelligent, dominant, confident animal watched you drive. Now he is ready to drive. Sorry. They are like 14 year olds that think they can drive after watching you and no longer want anything to do with a car seat. You pretty much have to start all over again training them, and even that is not always going to work. Maybe a harness in the back seat????


im giggling, this reminds me of my cousin, who keeps Norwegian Elkhounds, when she'd she say she'd buy her male Tucker a red Corvette if he made it to 16, he did........they ended up settling on an electric one meant for kids, he was NOT happy.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> Are you familiar with negative reinforcement?
> 
> It's not positive punishment.
> 
> Just making sure you understand the concept.


i wondered the same thing when @peachygeorgia mentioned their dog shutting down. shutting down is actually less likely since the dog realizes that they can control the pressure, in turn, coming out as the winner.

cheat sheet:
+P add something to decrease/extinguish a behavior
-P remove to decrease
+R add to increase
-R remove to increase


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Fodder said:


> i wondered the same thing when @peachygeorgia mentioned their dog shutting down. shutting down is actually less likely since the dog realizes that they can control the pressure, in turn, coming out as the winner.
> 
> cheat sheet:
> +P add something to decrease/extinguish a behavior
> ...


yeah I admit I think I applied my own scenario a bit too much, the OPS dog is probably learned he can get away with it because he prefers the back seat, and I didn't initially think of that at first. My boy has pretty severe trauma with vehicles so he tends to shut down with any NR near vehicles, so all positive has been the way to go for me! I think MarkDog gave some really good advice once I realized, sorry about that!

I'll definitely be saving that for future use lol


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Teale said:


> I also reinforce every command that I give. However with this one, I am physically incapable of reinforcing it due to him being an 85 pound dog who doesn't like being picked up and me being not much bigger than him.


i don’t know that @markdog was necessarily faulting you… but it does explain why his resistance has increased. the dog doesn’t know that there was a physical limitation… in his mind, you gave in and he got what he wanted. you’ll notice in the first video mark posted… it was important for the trainer to remain in the struggle and not let the dog win. dogs repeat what works. the root cause in your case could have been something superficial such as a sound that happened the moment you asked him to get in, or him feeling sore after the hike and not wanting to get in…. at this point it doesn’t really matter, he’s created a habit and an association/belief in his head.

from here… you’ll start from scratch. either with a new technique altogether, or build off what you’re already doing. if he gets in a home, great, try going down the block, then around the corner, etc etc


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What I do with a crate: I ask my dog to go to the crate and it’s his choice. He goes in, he gets a treat, praise etc. If he must to go to the crate, into the vehicle, inside, and has no choice, I take his collar and put him in quickly, in one motion, with no command. He gives into the collar, does not resist and knows that there is no choice, I trained the collar give separately when he was a pup.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> What I do with a crate: I ask my dog to go to the crate and it’s his choice. He goes in, he gets a treat, praise etc. If he must to go to the crate, into the vehicle, inside, and has no choice, I take his collar and put him in quickly, in one motion, with no command. He gives into the collar, does not resist and knows that there is no choice, I trained the collar give separately when he was a pup.


This is negative reinforcement. Collar pressure goes away when the behavior is performed.

I still think there is some confusion about that in this thread. A correction is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Exactly, the dog is in control and knows exactly what to do so why the need for correction? The goal is to get the dog into crate. Sometimes just physically doing something is faster and makes more sense than commands with corrections.

OP, you wrote: 'I've tried using a high value treat, like raw meat (which he goes crazy for) and he will still refuse. He also won't let me pick him up. ' How do you use the treats? Do you bribe him with the treats? Try to do the 'it's your choice' training. Come to the vehicle and tell him to get into the crate. If he does he gets a treat. If he doesn't that's ok, just move away and do something else, no treats given. Repeat. Do it in a new location. Then train also the collar give. I would not rush, really. Get a clip and have him attached to the seat belt in a meanwhile.

My dog hated being in the car because he had severe motion sickness as a puppy, the rides were very unpleasant for him. I had to work with him on that so I went through the process myself.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

My dogs's crates were snug and each time they go in they found hot dog bits in there. It was always matter of fact, no big deal from me. 

I would also check to make sure your dog isn't hurt. Sometimes pain in the back or the leg can make a do superstitious blaming getting into the crate as the cause.


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## Teale (Nov 24, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> Exactly, the dog is in control and knows exactly what to do so why the need for correction? The goal is to get the dog into crate. Sometimes just physically doing something is faster and makes more sense than commands with corrections.
> 
> OP, you wrote: 'I've tried using a high value treat, like raw meat (which he goes crazy for) and he will still refuse. He also won't let me pick him up. ' How do you use the treats? Do you bribe him with the treats? Try to do the 'it's your choice' training. Come to the vehicle and tell him to get into the crate. If he does he gets a treat. If he doesn't that's ok, just move away and do something else, no treats given. Repeat. Do it in a new location. Then train also the collar give. I would not rush, really. Get a clip and have him attached to the seat belt in a meanwhile.
> 
> My dog hated being in the car because he had severe motion sickness as a puppy, the rides were very unpleasant for him. I had to work with him on that so I went through the process myself.


I think I've accidentally slipped into trying to bribe him out of desperation XD Thanks for the advice! I'm gonna start training with these techniques right away!


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