# Digestive Issues on Raw



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Hi All,

I've been feeding Puppy raw for about a year. She's had phenomenal poop until quite recently. I'm not entirely sure when these issues started, but I'd estimate about a month.

1. She's had a few accidents in the house. When she does, the poop is messy and goopy and not well-formed. If I feed her a bonier diet the next day, they firm up significantly.

2. Yesterday I fed her a whole chicken. Later in the day, she had diarrhea and puked up the chicken. The chicken had a lot of chunks in it still.

3. Sometimes, I starve her for a day and feed her more the next day.

What can I do to improve? I haven't changed the staples of her diet or the source. I can try:

1. Feeding probiotic yogurt
2. Feeding pumpkin
3. Feeding coconut oil

I am also thinking of switching back to kibble for a while, especially since she'll be boarded for a month.

What do you guys think is the cause?

I took her to the vet yesterday. Vet didn't test poop, but did overall wellness check. Her temps are good, she is active, perky, and normal.


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm curious. Why do you starve her for a day? I would feel horrible not giving my girl anything to eat for a whole day.

I don't feed raw (looking into it, though) so I can't offer any suggestions for you. I was just wondering about the starving part.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

There are some schools of thought were fasting mimics their natural feeding habits - that's the sciency answer.

For us, it's because Puppy doesn't eat when I'm not home. Sometimes I don't come home until very late at night. At that point, she's pretty sleepy and doesn't really want to wake up to eat a large meal. So I just hold on and give it to her in the morning.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

In our case, we ended up not being able to feed chicken anymore.

You may have to go to another protein.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DonnaKay said:


> I'm curious. Why do you starve her for a day? I would feel horrible not giving my girl anything to eat for a whole day.
> 
> I don't feed raw (looking into it, though) so I can't offer any suggestions for you. I was just wondering about the starving part.


I fast mine too every now and then. Actually he didn't eat yesterday (treats only) 
It's healthy for them. It's also healthy for us. I've gone for a week or two without eating so I don't feel bad doing it to my dog at all.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I would get her on Earthborn Coastal catch, add salmon and coconut, limit treats to grain free, watch if she's getting into anything, and run a fecal


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I fast everyone about once a week - except preg, lactating, or sick dogs. Search the forum for a previous discussion as to why some fast


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am so confused. 

I don't understand how not eating for a week or two is healthy for a human being? I would think that would have the opposite effect and there is no way in heck I could go more than a day without getting sick.

I could never withold food from my dogs for a day. First of all they would both be incredibly annoying and would cry, beg and probably raid the cabinets when I am not looking. Second, both dogs start gagging and throw up when they haven't eaten for 12 hours.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...l-carnivorous-animals-need-meatless-days.html

Discussion as to why.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Wow good thing this came up !! I stumbled over this article today about fasting 1 day a week for your german shepherd..idk how it works on dog but .. when i was working out i do intermittent fasting 3 days a week thats 16 hrs fasting 3 days a week and my stomach feels great, no bloating and i have more energy. Have anyone here actually tried this on their dog and know for a fact that its beneficial ?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I used to skip days all the time with Avery. No I'll effects. I also never fed the same time from day to day to avoid the annoying I want to eat behavior...

And as sunflower said it could be a chicken intolerance. Has there been anything new introed to her diet? New treats? 


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Very interesting indeed. Thank you for all the responses.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> I am so confused.
> 
> I don't understand how not eating for a week or two is healthy for a human being? I would think that would have the opposite effect and there is no way in heck I could go more than a day without getting sick.
> 
> I could never withold food from my dogs for a day. First of all they would both be incredibly annoying and would cry, beg and probably raid the cabinets when I am not looking. Second, both dogs start gagging and throw up when they haven't eaten for 12 hours.


I never fasted my dog for 2 weeks, I fast him for a day here and there and he gets treats which are raw food kibble looking things. So he gets some food. 

I brought up my two weeks to say that I've gone without food and therefore I feel I can do it to him. 

As far as healthy for people, there's a school of thought that not eating for long periods of time (for people) is not only not harmful but it cures a host of diseases. Cures almost all skin diseases, many digestive problems and I don't remember what else. Paul Bregg, Herbert Shelton. I read them in Russian so I'm not sure if that's how their names are spelled. 
I didn't do it for health reasons, it just happened. But I read up on it. Anyway, this is def ot but I believe that fasting for a month (especially these days lol) can do wonders.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I never fasted my dog for 2 weeks, I fast him for a day here and there and he gets treats which are raw food kibble looking things. So he gets some food.
> 
> I brought up my two weeks to say that I've gone without food and therefore I feel I can do it to him.
> 
> ...


 
I know you didn't fast your dog for 2 weeks, I know that you said that _you_ have fasted for one to 2 weeks. That is why I said this



LaRen616 said:


> I am so confused.
> 
> I don't understand how not eating for a week or two is healthy for a human being? I would think that would have the opposite effect and there is no way in heck I could go more than a day without getting sick.
> 
> I could never withold food from my dogs for a day. First of all they would both be incredibly annoying and would cry, beg and probably raid the cabinets when I am not looking. Second, both dogs start gagging and throw up when they haven't eaten for 12 hours.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> I know you didn't fast your dog for 2 weeks, I know that you said that _you_ have fasted for one to 2 weeks. That is why I said this


Oh I misread)))


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I would get her on Earthborn Coastal catch, add salmon and coconut, limit treats to grain free, watch if she's getting into anything, and run a fecal


Thanks for the suggestion.

I'll check if I can get Earthborn here in the great north. If not, she's been on Orijen 6 fish before and did well, so I may get that.

I'll add coconut oil, and see if I can buy some salmon for her.

These past 2 days I've been supplementing tons of probiotic yogurt to her raw.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> In our case, we ended up not being able to feed chicken anymore.
> 
> You may have to go to another protein.


That would be devastating.
Hope that is not the case.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Cures almost all skin diseases,*
i think it could cure living too :shrug:

marshies why would switching to another protein be devastating?
i have fed fish consisting of cod and swai
pork and beef to my dogs
one can get creative


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

marshies said:


> I'll check if I can get Earthborn here in the great north. If not, she's been on Orijen 6 fish before and did well, so I may get that.
> 
> .



You can get the Earthborn at any Pet Valu store


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Try removing the skin from the chicken. Puppy may be getting to much fat. To much fat can cause diarrhea and pancreatitis. Also, most chicken is washed with chlorine and peracetic acid that isn't degraded because it isn't cooked. These may be your puppy's issues.

I understand that chicken is an inexpensive protein for raw fed. It can get expensive to raw feed when chicken can't be utilized. 

Having a dog with many food sensitivities, if you suspect sensitivities (allergies) then I strongly recommend testing. It saves so much time and anguish. Nothing worse than watching your pup suffer with ill health. Elimination diets are great, but they take a lot of time and money. Testing isn't cheap. However, in the long run much less expensive then guessing. Your dog will recover much faster if you know for sure what your puppy can/can't have. JMO

NutriScan Food Sensitivity and Intolerance Test for Cats and Dogs or consult your vet for testing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> *Cures almost all skin diseases,*
> i think it could cure living too :shrug:


It's amazing, almost everyone is 100 lbs overweight and still people think they will die if they don't eat for a day. A skinny person can go about a month, a fat one 2 months or so. 

Comments like this make me laugh. Fasting for a month is not starving. Fasting is stopped way before starvation sets in and your body will tell you in advance about it. 

When fasting, day 3 or 4 hunger completely disappears. You feel amazing, light, full of energy. Once the hunger comes back then you're about to go into starvation mode but that's after a month or so. Diff for diff people.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> It's amazing, almost everyone is 100 lbs overweight and still people think they will die if they don't eat for a day. A skinny person can go about a month, a fat one 2 months or so.
> 
> Comments like this make me laugh. Fasting for a month is not starving. Fasting is stopped way before starvation sets in and your body will tell you in advance about it.
> 
> When fasting, day 3 or 4 hunger completely disappears. You feel amazing, light, full of energy. Once the hunger comes back then you're about to go into starvation mode but that's after a month or so. Diff for diff people.


 For the benefit of the OP could this thread get back on track. Might I suggest taking this topic to a new thread in the chat room.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lalachka said:


> It's amazing, almost everyone is 100 lbs overweight and still people think they will die if they don't eat for a day. A skinny person can go about a month, a fat one 2 months or so.
> 
> Comments like this make me laugh. Fasting for a month is not starving. Fasting is stopped way before starvation sets in and your body will tell you in advance about it.
> 
> When fasting, day 3 or 4 hunger completely disappears. You feel amazing, light, full of energy. Once the hunger comes back then you're about to go into starvation mode but that's after a month or so. Diff for diff people.


Wow Lalaloopsy, almost everyone is 100 pounds overweight, really? :laugh:

I will admit that I am overweight, I am 35 pounds overweight, not even close to 100 pounds. Back when I had surgery years ago, I couldn't eat anything for 3-4 days and I definitely didn't feel amazing, light and full of energy, I felt HUNGRY, my stomach hurt and I felt sick.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lalachka said:


> It's amazing, almost everyone is 100 lbs overweight and still people think they will die if they don't eat for a day. A skinny person can go about a month, a fat one 2 months or so.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Seriously? Almost everyone is 100lbs overweight? Where do you keep getting this stuff from?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> Wow Lalaloopsy, almost everyone is 100 pounds overweight, really? :laugh:
> 
> I will admit that I am overweight, I am 35 pounds overweight, not even close to 100 pounds. Back when I had surgery years ago, I couldn't eat anything for 3-4 days and I definitely didn't feel amazing, light and full of energy, I felt HUNGRY, my stomach hurt and I felt sick.


I was exaggerating)))) I got 40 extra lbs myself. 
But look around. Most people are overweight. 

The hunger really does go away. there's an explanation behind it, I think after a few days the digestive juices stop producing and that's what makes you feel the hunger. 
But this only happens if you eat nothing at all, just drink. If you eat a tiny piece of anything then the 3-4 days restart. 

And most people do feel light and full of energy.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Marshies, did you ask Robin about this?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Marshies, did you ask Robin about this?


Hi,

No I didn't.
This didn't seem genetic or like an allergy to me..she's been fine before this so I thought I might try the board.

I'll ask Robin tonight.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> *Cures almost all skin diseases,*
> i think it could cure living too :shrug:
> 
> marshies why would switching to another protein be devastating?
> ...


I feed Puppy a lot of pork, beef, and lamb too.
Chicken is an easy to feed source of bone, and can be bought and fed whole to give Pup a funner feeding experience. Not to mention, chicken is dirty cheap in Toronto.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Mikelia said:


> You can get the Earthborn at any Pet Valu store


Thank you!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

NOw that I think about it, 1 month ago is when I started taking her to ravines and letter her play with water. 

She has never done well with outside water...


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Did you tell your vet that you feed her raw chicken? Lots of nasty bacteria in chicken that could make her sick. 

Don't take offense to this but it doesn't seem to me like you have a good handle on feeding a home prepared diet. I would go back to kibble she did good on because I won't feed raw but if you are determined to feed raw why not use a pre-made raw diet or The Honest Kitchen.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Heidigsd said:


> Don't take offense to this but it doesn't seem to me like you have a good handle on feeding home prepared diet.


Heidi, just wondering why you said that. I couldn't see anything in her posts that suggests she did something wrong. Did I miss it? Can you explain?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong then too


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well putting kibble in a kong toy or other feeding toy is fun mealtimes
feed what your dog is healthy on and does best on


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Heidigsd said:


> Did you tell your vet that you feed her raw chicken? Lots of nasty bacteria in chicken that could make her sick.
> 
> Don't take offense to this but it doesn't seem to me like you have a good handle on feeding a home prepared diet. I would go back to kibble she did good on because I won't feed raw but if you are determined to feed raw why not use a pre-made raw diet or The Honest Kitchen.


No offense taken, but curious why you feel this way?

My vet does indeed know what my dog is fed raw. 

I don't know if I come across extra-unprepared on the forum or what, but I think Puppy receives adequate nutrition while fed raw.

Some examples of what I feed her:
-Pork Heart, chicken wings
-Beef organ cubes, chicken quarters
-Veal brisket, organ cube
-Whole chicken

Either way, thank you for the advice. She will be back on kibble next month since I have to board her while I travel. I will ask the boarder about her poop on kibble.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

marshies said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been feeding Puppy raw for about a year. She's had phenomenal poop until quite recently. I'm not entirely sure when these issues started, but I'd estimate about a month.
> 
> ...


Feeding a whole chicken is way too much for a GSD to digest, no wonder there were problems with digesting it. I don't let my dogs gorge themselves and then fast them. I see no point whatsoever(even if that is what wolves may do in the wild~our domestic dogs are NOT wolves)
Instead of feeding a whole chicken why don't you feed an appropriate portion according to your dogs weight and metabolism? 
You set her up to have problems when you gave her a whole chicken in one meal.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> I won't feed raw but if you are determined to feed raw why not use a pre-made raw diet or The Honest Kitchen.


The Honest Kitchen is not raw.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Ok I missed that part, about giving a whole chicken and fasting and then feeding more the next day. 

I still say it's ok to fast and it's healthy to fast them for a day here and there but then you go back to feeding the normal amounts, not more than before. 

And an entire chicken in one sitting is way too much. For some reason when I read that I pictured the small chickens, Cornish hens. I couldn't imagine someone giving a whole chicken at once 

They're supposed to get about 2 lbs a day, so a lb twice a day, give or take.

ETA and even the Cornish hens I split in two at least


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*I see no point whatsoever(even if that is what wolves may do in the wild~our domestic dogs are NOT wolves)*
this exactly
even if our dogs digestive systems were just like wolves you would need to go get an elk caracass and spread it out in the back yard for your dogs to eat to replicate their style of eating
because i have never seen wolves at the corner market picking out packaged chickens!

also marshies you do sound a bit inexperienced because you are not feeding balanced diet daily
or you would not have goopy poop you have to correct with a 'bonier meal' the next day

your dog should have consistent poops daily and not have to continually adjust the ratio of bone to meat

just do correct ratios daily instead of playing make-up day to day

there is also a formulation of how many ounces per day that goes according to your dogs weight
if your dog is 50lb then i think its around 1/2 lb a day and of that some is bone and some is organ

if the chicken weighed a pound and a half then you are overfeeding by 1 lb which means the dog will have issues such as you describe

i think heidi may be correct and that in your case kibble would be a more sensible choice


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Raw doesn't have to be balanced every day. It has to balance out over time. 

As far as fasting, I don't do it because of wolves, don't know about others.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if your dog is vomiting chunks of chicken and having diarrhea then it is not deriving the most out its food so yes i would say one should strive for daily balance

lala for gosh sake my post was not to you or about you 

i was replying to onyx and the op


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

And I was telling the op that it doesn't have to be balanced every day


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My comment was about gorging, not so much fasting. 
There is no reason to let a dog over eat and then rest the gut. Best to be consistent in portions and balances, IMO. That means balancing out the meat/bone/organ per meal so digestion isn't being stressed from too much of any one thing. Constipation isn't fun due to eating more bone than necessary, nor is runny poo from too much organ meat. Why not just feed the balance required for proper nutrition? It doesn't have to be strictly concise, but at least somewhat balanced.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> Why not just feed the balance required for proper nutrition? It doesn't have to be strictly concise, but at least somewhat balanced.


:thumbup:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Xuan - I would get her on kibble now so she does not have to adjust to new food along with boarding all at once. I think a novel single protein diet will be a good place to start. A lot of dogs are allergic to chicken. Be sure to run a fecal. Dogs get all kinds of critters from fresh water - coccidia, giardia, etc etc. be sure to rule that out


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

marshies said:


> No offense taken, but curious why you feel this way?
> 
> My vet does indeed know what my dog is fed raw.
> 
> ...


It's just the impression I got from reading your post and pretty much for the same reasons *my_boy_diesel* and *onyxgirl* brought up already.

Maybe you have crunched the numbers and you know exactly what your dogs requirements are and what her diet provides, it just didn't come across that way in your post. 

Here is a good post that explains the basics on how to analyze your dogs diet: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/85948-how-i-create-balance-homemade-diet.html


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Thanks for the posts guys. 

The chicken is not a conventional chicken as we see in super markets. It's a special kind of chicken in Chinese super markets that has a ton less meat. The drumsticks on these chickens, for example, are the same size as the drumettes in our regular chickens. 

But good point. I will cut them in half or take them away. 

Thanks for the posts. If the border reports issues I will have her go to get and run fecal


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Whole chicken??? my girl has never eaten that much. Plus, I notice she has a technique for eating her 1/4s maybe your dog just wolfed down a whole chicken and that makes sense that its puking???


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

To me it sounds like you fed waaaay too much! Chickens can weigh several pounds and eating too much in one sitting can cause diarrhea and vomiting... I'd try cutting down on the portions and adding a probiotic and digestive enzymes. Btw dogs digestive systems are designed to handle heavier bacteria loads... raw is perfectly safe for a healthy dog! I've been feeding 100% raw for awhile now to four dogs and will never go back to kibble, the difference I've seen in their health is proof enough for me.

This is a great starter guide if you need help learning portions and percentages, also if you're on Facebook the raw feeding community is awesome and full of super helper and knowledgeable people!

http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com...88/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.7.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/groups/preymodeldiet/


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

The Many Myths of Raw Feeding


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Cures almost all skin diseases,
i think it could cure living too 

lol!


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Carriesue said:


> To me it sounds like you fed waaaay too much! Chickens can weigh several pounds and eating too much in one sitting can cause diarrhea and vomiting... I'd try cutting down on the portions and adding a probiotic and digestive enzymes. *Btw dogs digestive systems are designed to handle heavier bacteria loads... raw is perfectly safe for a healthy dog! *I've been feeding 100% raw for awhile now to four dogs and will never go back to kibble, the difference I've seen in their health is proof enough for me.
> 
> This is a great starter guide if you need help learning portions and percentages, also if you're on Facebook the raw feeding community is awesome and full of super helper and knowledgeable people!
> 
> ...


I was hoping this thread wouldn't go down this road but the misinformation spread about raw feeding is mind boggling. I really don't care what people feed, they have to weigh the pros and cons but lets just stick with the facts. People on FB or a message board with absolutely no medical background that just keep repeating the same internet myths are not qualified to give advise about nutrition.

*Top Ten Myths about Raw Diets*
http://vet.tufts.edu/nutrition/resources/raw_meat_diets.pdf

*Advising clients who feed raw diets to pets by Dr. Remillard*
Raw Meat Diets

*Scroll down to Raw Diets*
Dog and Cat Foods: Nutrition: Small Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual

Chicken Safety | Chicken Contamination - Consumer Reports

This sounds wonderful: *There are two syndromes associated with Salmonella: diarrhea and sepsis. Salmonella bacteria, once consumed, attach to the intestine and secrete toxins. The toxins produce diarrhea that can be severe and even life-threatening in the young. If this were not bad enough, some Salmonella can produce an even more serious "part two." These bacteria are capable of invading the rest of the body through the damaged intestine.*
01 Campylobacter, Salmonella, & E. Coli: Causes of Diarrhea in Puppies & Kittens - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

And then there are those of us who believe more informed vets..

I don't understand why you are maligning this type of feeding and food, if you don't care what other people feed. And if you think kibble is free of salmonella, do some more research.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

marshies said:


> Thanks for the posts guys.
> 
> The chicken is not a conventional chicken as we see in super markets. It's a special kind of chicken in Chinese super markets that has a ton less meat. The drumsticks on these chickens, for example, are the same size as the drumettes in our regular chickens.
> 
> ...


Ohh I've seen those. They're like really really skinny 
Smaller than Cornish hens I think. But they're mostly all bone. So the diarrhea wouldn't come from lack of bone 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

raw feeding without doing measuring and research is doing your dog a disservice
there are ratios to everything and if you are giving unbalanced meals day in and day out you are going to harm your dog in the long run

in those cases kibble would be a better choice as it is balanced


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Balanced? On paper everything looks great. Not everything in kibble is bioavailable, and that's why their poop is so big.
If feeding dehydrated little pellets were so wonderful, tasty and healthful, we would be eating that, too.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well as i mentioned earlier if your dog is having diarrhea and vomiting then something is wrong
kibble is not the worst thing that could happen to a dog btw


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> well as i mentioned earlier if your dog is having diarrhea and vomiting then something is wrong.


Absolutely. That happened to me, which is why I said it might be the chicken.
Come to think of it, my dog came to me on kibble that contained chicken, and his poops were horrendous and smelly, and his eyes were watery.

So raw or kibble, if your dog is sensitive to a certain type of meat, you should try something else.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> well as i mentioned earlier if your dog is having diarrhea and vomiting then something is wrong
> *kibble is not the worst thing that could happen to a dog btw*


:thumbup:


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

And then there are those of us who believe more informed vets.. I guess that's a matter of opinion 

I don't understand why you are maligning this type of feeding and food, if you don't care what other people feed. And if you think kibble is free of salmonella, do some more research. I am not "maligning" anything, just get tired of seeing misinformation spread. What's wrong with posting some facts?


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Sunflowers said:


> And then there are those of us who believe more informed vets..
> 
> I don't understand why you are maligning this type of feeding and food, if you don't care what other people feed. And if you think kibble is free of salmonella, do some more research.
> 
> ...


My research is pretty up-to-date about kibble and salmonella but thanks for your input!


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> What's wrong with posting some facts?[/COLOR]



http://rawfed.com/myths/


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Mrs.P said:


> The Many Myths of Raw Feeding


The author of this wonderful piece didn't list her credentials...could you please provide them...thanks


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Heidigsd said:


> The author of this wonderful piece didn't list her credentials...could you please provide them...thanks


Why? Can't you just pick apart what she's saying? Why does it matter what the credentials are, she either knows what she's talking about or she doesn't. 

Or if she has the education to back it up then her words gain more weight?
Her, him, I don't know who wrote that and only read half of a page. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> The author of this wonderful piece didn't list her credentials...could you please provide them...thanks



There are plenty of studies cited that support(have a look through) -I pasted an example for your connivence . Your choice to feed which ever you wish. My point is that kibble is not the worse thing to happen to a dog nor is balanced raw diet. Those who feed correctly see the benefits  


"

Millions of dogs eat kibble. And millions of dogs—at least 85% of all dogs—suffer from periodontal disease by age 3 as a result of eating these processed foods (Penman, S. and P. Emily. 1991. Scaling, Polishing and Dental Home Care. Waltham International Focus. 1(3): 2-8. In Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones. pg 110). This translates to teeth covered with plaque and teeming with bacteria. These bacteria get into the gums and provoke the body's inflammatory response continually for the rest of the animal's life. Dogs (and cats!) are doomed to have nasty teeth and rancid breath. "It's normal," people said. "Dogs are supposed to have bad dog breath.

"


MSU Presents Partnership Award

"Topeka, Kan. - Michigan State University (MSU) College of Veterinary Medicine recently presented the 2004 Partnership Award to Hill's Pet Nutrition Inc. 

"The award recognizes the working relationship between the MSU and Hill's. 

"Hill's provides financial and educational support to nearly every veterinary college in North America, as well as to veterinary students attending those institutions. This commitment to the profession includes Hill's sponsored teaching programs, residencies and faculty programs in veterinary schools and teaching hospitals all over the world.

" 'Hill's is incredibly responsive to anything students or faculty have asked of them,' says Dr. Lonnie King, dean of the college of veterinary medicine at MSU. 'Their steadfast support, generosity and collaboration in advancing the college's mission is recognized as a vital part of our veterinary medicine program.' 

"Hill's has shown its commitment to the partnership with MSU by providing support to many student groups and student activities; covering costs for students to attend the SCAVMA Symposium; providing students with the textbook Small Animal Clinical Nutrition and other various handouts; providing employment to student representatives; and by supporting the awards banquet for seniors graduating from the program."


—DVM News Magazine, August 2004 (emphasis added)


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

lalachka said:


> Why? Can't you just pick apart what she's saying? Why does it matter what the credentials are, she either knows what she's talking about or she doesn't.
> 
> Or if she has the education to back it up then her words gain more weight?
> Her, him, I don't know who wrote that and only read half of a page.
> ...


I am not going to do this back and forth. People can read the information in this thread, do their own research and decide what they want to feed and how. Some people just want to argue everything to death and I have better things to do with my time.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Marshies, how's Puppy girl feeling today ?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mrs.P said:


> There are plenty of studies cited that support(have a look through) -I pasted an example for your connivence . Your choice to feed which ever you wish. My point is that kibble is not the worse thing to happen to a dog nor is balanced raw diet. Those who feed correctly see the benefits
> 
> 
> "
> ...


I didn't get to this part. I love smelling my dog's breath. I do it for pleasure. Also smell his neck a few times a day, also for pleasure. 

My sis bought a breath spray for her foster. She's elderly, maybe that's why her breath stinks and has nothing to do with the fact that she's on expensive kibble. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Marshies, how's Puppy girl feeling today ?


She didn't puke since that one episode.

Yesterday I fed her pork instead of chicken, and in a smaller portion.
I can't monitor her poop because my dad lets her out in the backyard when he comes back from work to potty. But she's very energetic and otherwise healthy.

Thanks for asking!

For boarding I will have to switch her over to kibble. She has done well on Orijen, so I will switch her back to that.

The last time we boarded she did not want to eat much, so this time I'm leaving the boarder with canned tripe, eggs, yogurt, etc to help make the meals a bit more enticing for her.

Thanks to everyone for posting more information. I always love hearing more than one voice in the thread. I think it's up to every owner to make informed decisions about how to feed, and part of that decision is looking through different opinions and subscribing to one that you think is most sound.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*


Mrs.P said:



"

Millions of dogs eat kibble. And millions of dogs—at least 85% of all dogs—suffer from periodontal disease by age 3 as a result of eating these processed foods (Penman, S. and P. Emily. 1991. Scaling, Polishing and Dental Home Care. Waltham International Focus. 1(3): 2-8. In Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones. pg 110). This translates to teeth covered with plaque and teeming with bacteria. These bacteria get into the gums and provoke the body's inflammatory response continually for the rest of the animal's life. Dogs (and cats!) are doomed to have nasty teeth and rancid breath. "It's normal," people said. "Dogs are supposed to have bad dog breath.

Click to expand...

*


Mrs.P said:


> I can buy into this due to firsthand experience...most likely many can in here. My first three dogs all ate kibble and my current dog is fed raw. The significant differences in dental health ( pearly whites ) is dramatic. My last GSD was plagued with EPI, so her kibble was softened as it had to soak with the enzymes for a spell before she was fed. Her teeth were horrible as there was no "crunch" to anything in her diet. The vet suggested a teeth cleaning and I was fine with that until she said they have to put the dog under...I'm not a fan of anesthetizing so I searched on...I tried brushing her teeth and she allowed me to but the results were not sufficient...so I decided to give her a raw beef neck bone and deal with the runs since I couldn't apply the enzymes to the neck bone. WOW!...after the first beef neck bone it was amazing... much of the greenish/brownish calculus and tartar was gone after one neck bone...I continued giving her a neck bone every week and her teeth were tons better....and her bad breath completely disappeared as well......it was just that simple and to think I contemplated getting my doggy's teeth cleaned at the vet...I wonder why the vet didn't simply say to give the dog a neck bone??? Yeah, I know...no $$$$ in the vet cash register.
> 
> Anyway, I somewhat believe the choice of a beef neck bone is an optimal choice for cleaning a dog's teeth as all the irregularities and convolutions perhaps come in contact with more of the surface area on a dog's teeth.
> 
> ...


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

If you don't believe in the diet why are you even commenting on the thread? I have first hand experience feeding raw and have reaped the benefits for myself. My Pom who had inflamed gums and nasty yellow teeth now has pearly white teeth and healthy gums since he's been on raw with NO brushing or cleaning. Their coats and energy have improved and their poops are teeny tiny... No amount of misinformation you spew out is going to change my mind. You can feed whatever you want but don't go around bashing someone else's food choice based off something you really don't know much about. 

Marshies, I hope your pup is feeling better! One thing to consider when you board is doing a freeze dried raw, when I go camping, etc I use a food called k9 naturals so that I don't have to upset their tummies with kibble... Works great!

My boys beautiful coat on raw and his pearly whites(I have never brushed his teeth!).


Stack improving! by Carriesue82, on Flickr


Untitled photo by Carriesue82, on Flickr


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Carriesue,

I can tell you feed your pooch raw....in the second picture look how vicious he is..oh, he certainly has nice healthy white teeth just all the better to tear a human to shreds.....it certainly proves the point that feeding a dog raw bloody meat turns them into wild savage beasts....

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Oh, I forgot...you have obviously sent your dog to the dentist for teeth whitening...only Hollywood dogs have teeth that white and shiny.

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Oh, I forgot...you have obviously sent your dog to the dentist for teeth whitening...only Hollywood dogs have teeth that white and shiny.
> 
> SuperG


Lol right? No one thinks it's weird anymore that dogs need to go under to get their teeth cleaned. And weekly tooth brushings are just part of the routine. And kibble is the best thing to feed your dogs. 

At least with people junk and fast food is recognized for what it is, a fast and easy but not healthy alternative. With dogs it's now the only accepted diet. (Not my thought, read somewhere)


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Just an observation on the evolution of mass produced dog food (kibble)....what I find interesting is many of the dog food producers over the past decade or so have incorporated products into their line which are "grain free". These products are very popular but yet fly in the face of what used to be a "balanced" diet for Fido as described by the dog food producers...how can this be?

Maybe this excerpt says it best...."..._ dogs have no nutritional requirement for dietary carbohydrates. They can get everything they need from a diet that contains only protein and fat. Energy metabolism in the dog can be based on fat oxidation and the breakdown of protein to produce glucose. __There are two main reasons why we feed carbs to dogs. The first reason is because we can. Dogs can utilize just about anything we feed them; their digestive tracts are extremely versatile. The second reason is economic; fat and protein sources are much more expensive than carbohydrates_."


Feed whatever you choose as you are the steward of your furry companions, I'm certain we all do what we feel is best for our dogs.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Lol right? No one thinks it's weird anymore that dogs need to go under to get their teeth cleaned. And weekly tooth brushings are just part of the routine. And kibble is the best thing to feed your dogs.
> 
> At least with people junk and fast food is recognized for what it is, a fast and easy but not healthy alternative. With dogs it's now the only accepted diet. (Not my thought, read somewhere)



Hmmmmmm....you have me thinking...I wonder if just getting the dollar value menu items at Taco Bell, McDonalds etc...might be a good way to go for my dog....??? Would you suggest sugar free soda or just the regular stuff?

SuperG


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol good point. It used be said that the grains and corn and whatever are there because the dogs must have them and that wolves eat stomachs of their prey and berries (interesting how when it's convenient wolves are used as an example but once they're used to justify raw feeding it's always 'dogs are not wolves'), not that they're are a cheap filler. 

So now somehow they can survive without them and strictly meat is the best diet? 

I would have no problem with kibble if the marketing and vets would offer it for what it is, a convenient and sometimes cheaper way to feed a dog. When they start throwing all this bs around and make people feel like they're not smart enough to feed their dogs - then I want to argue.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Hmmmmmm....you have me thinking...I wonder if just getting the dollar value menu items at Taco Bell, McDonalds etc...might be a good way to go for my dog....??? Would you suggest sugar free soda or just the regular stuff?
> 
> SuperG


Nope, too much meat (lol the few mgs there is) Vegan is the new movement. Research shows dogs thrive on it


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

If you don't believe in the diet why are you even commenting on the thread? I didn't realize you are only allowed to comment if you *BELIEVE* :laugh: I don't need your permission to post *believe* it or not. 

I have first hand experience feeding raw and have reaped the benefits for myself. My Pom who had inflamed gums and nasty yellow teeth now has pearly white teeth and healthy gums since he's been on raw with NO brushing or cleaning. Their coats and energy have improved and their poops are teeny tiny... No amount of misinformation you spew out is going to change my mind. I am not trying to change your mind, I don't care what you feed your dogs. You could feed your family raw meat and I wouldn't care. You were the one providing misinformation and I posted information that shows you are wrong and that is your problem.

You can feed whatever you want but don't go around bashing someone else's food choice based off something you really don't know much about. I wasn't bashing anyone's food choice. Marshies dog was having diarrhea and vomiting which could be related to the raw chicken she was feeding...how is that bashing? Do a search on here and put in *"raw meat diarrhea" *and see how many dogs are sick that are fed raw. People always want to blame it on everything else but the raw meat, which is really not fair to the dogs and that's what I care about...not your opinion!

Here is another article from Tufts worth reading but they probably don't know much about it either just like me  Risks outweigh benefits of raw meat-based diets for pets | Tufts Now


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've fed raw for over 7 yrs and never had issues with it. How often do we read about dogs getting sick from eating raw? If it is fed properly, seldom if ever are there problems.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> I've fed raw for over 7 yrs and never had issues with it. How often do we read about dogs getting sick from eating raw? If it is fed properly, seldom if ever are there problems.


There are plenty of posts on here that dogs fed raw showed symptoms of food poisoning over the years. IMO...it happens a lot more than people want to admit. We know that many owners won't tell their vet they are feeding raw when they take their sick dog to be seen, so the vet treats the symptoms and the dog gets better.

I don't want to argue about this but it's really hard to understand why people just won't admit that it's a real risk? But every time someone even dares to question if the dog could be sick from eating raw meat you get verbally attacked  

There is also lots of evidence that these diets are unbalanced, despite of people on message boards and FB telling people otherwise. So, why is it so bad to look at both sides of the issue and let people make up their own minds. 

Here is an article about cats with Septicemic Salmonellosis: Septicemic salmonellosis in two... [J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 2003 Nov-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI

There have been recent posts on here from vet techs that confirmed that they are seeing more sick dogs at their clinics from raw meat but that kind of information just seems to get dismissed. Are they spreading misinformation also? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ing-hard-time-making-up-my-mind-raw-diet.html

This is a member who's puppy was ill from eating raw meat: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/401354-barf-not-my-dog-3.html

Here is a quick search:
Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for raw meat diarrhea


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Heidigsd said:


> I don't want to argue about this but it's really hard to understand why people just won't admit that it's a real risk? But every time someone even dares to question if the dog could be sick from eating raw meat you get verbally attacked


I don't think it's so much you listing the risks. It's the fact that you disagree. That's all it takes. 

A person should feed their dog whatever their dog thrives best on. No right or wrong answer. Has nothing to do with 'fast food' or someone being lazy. (Big shocker that point was brought up...)


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I do know that there are risks in raw, for sure there are. Bones are one risk (breaking a tooth, swallowing sharp piece, etc), bacteria is another. But as you said, it's all about weighing the risks and benefits and IMO the benefits outweigh the risks. 

If kibble never got contaminated then we can talk about dangers of bacteria but there's as good of a chance of getting something from kibble as there is from raw meat. And things they can get from raw meat are things their bodies are usually prepared to deal with. Stuff kibble got recalled over - aflatoxin, for example, they're not. 

As far as sharp bone pieces, yep, def a risk. So is breaking a tooth. 


As far as kibble and convenience. I'm not calling anyone lazy. I'm lazier than anyone here, I can bet on it. But it is true that kibble was invented as a fast food for dogs and it was marketed that way. It was acknowledged that this is not the best choice for them (as fast food for humans isn't either) but it was advertising the benefits of saving time and effort. 

Then, at some point, the companies went a step further and said that this is the ONLY way to properly feed your dogs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Heidigsd said:


> Risks outweigh benefits of raw meat-based diets for pets | Tufts Now



A quote from the article..." _Wolves in the wild, which typically only live for a few years, eat foods that are not optimal for pets that we hope will live long and healthy lives, the authors note._"...I am a bit suspect of this claim as too many other wolf studies state the average life expectancy is 6-8 years in the wild.

SuperG


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would never say that all dogs should be fed raw - some just don't do good on it- and if you don't know what your doing and it's not balanced then you have a mess. 

My boy did fine on kibble but I decided to switch him to raw when he was 6 months old and he has thrived on it. Nothing wrong with kibble however.

This will probably get me sent to the dog house but Rusty has buried raw meaty bones in the yard and dug them up and ate them a day later He was fine - tough gut. His dam has never had kibble...ever. She's 11 now.

Has a dog got sick being fed raw - I'm sure plenty have. I have not experienced it personally.

I think the reason some pet owners don't tell their vets they are feeding raw is any ailment would then be blamed on raw - thus wasting time getting to the root of the problem.

I did fess up to my vet that Rusty is fed raw. He's not a fan but admitted if it's fed correctly it's fine. It's easier to recommend a bag of kibble-one stop shopping. He had a lady who was feeding her dog "raw" but ONLY raw hamburger - the dog was a mess (bone structure). This obviously upset him, rightfully so.

Anyways - glad to hear Puppy is feeling better


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I guess same way as people don't understand the denial of the dangers of raw, I also don't understand the denial that kibble is more convenient


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> There are plenty of posts on here that dogs fed raw showed symptoms of food poisoning over the years.


 
You're going to have a bias here that is not a sample of the whole. Just like with say dog-reactivity here. People are not going to post here is my puppy he ate a lamb trotter and he was fine. Day 32 Yep puppy is still fine on his raw diet ate some pork shoulder today. Day 63 ate a beef heart today yep puppy is still fine ect ect. You are only going to see the issues, usually due to owner-error. There are risks with everything no one is denying such. IMO kibble is too risky much rather feed raw.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think this needs its own thread right now.

I will say this: I would love to feed kibble. 

I joined this board because I hadn't had a dog in 10 years and I was looking for the best kibble available nowadays. 

I saw this thread, and never looked back. I must admit, I was disappointed to realize I had to feed raw. It would have been much easier to feed kibble.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/111711-changes-after-being-switched-raw.html

We can argue the theory all we want-- but the proof is in the dog's physical condition and health.


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## Timowen1 (May 29, 2013)

You know I just don't understand the raw meat diet thing. I guess I need to 
research this more. I am on my 3rd GSD in 37 years. I never had more than 
one at a time the 1st was healthy and vet checked twice a year and always
vaccinated. He lived 16 years. The second the same, we got 14 years out of him. 
They ate Purina Dog Chow. My boy now is 16 months old and a healthy 125 lbs. 
we feed him Hills large breed puppy and will keep him on it two more months.
With the pooping issues and other problems I hear people talk about associated 
with the raw meat diet I have to wonder.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

16mo and 125lb? Sounds extremely oversized or overweight. Have a picture?

Btw - there are plenty of threads about GI issues on kibble as well so I'm not sure what correlation you're attempting to illustrate?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I always wondered what's in dog food that makes switching foods such a project. Like you need to give a little with their current food for a week or so. Can someone explain?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

lalachka said:


> I always wondered what's in dog food that makes switching foods such a project. Like you need to give a little with their current food for a week or so. Can someone explain?


Every dog food has different fillers. These fillers are for adding "nutrition," but also serve as a glue to make the mix able to be made into pellets, and have those pellets stay together.

When a dog is eating a certain kind of food, his stomach secretions have adjusted to that. So if you change abruptly, the juices necessary to digest the old food might not be adequate for the new, and you have digestive upset.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You know, there are people who eat raw, too.


Here is some of what they say:

_Believe it or not, you and your family can eat raw meat for good health as long as you eat the right kind. My daughter and I (and thousands of other people) have been doing it for years and have never been sick. The important thing to note is that all meat is not created equally. There’s the range stuff – cows who eat grass on farms, and there’s the feedlot stuff – cows who eat grains and live in their own black muck. Meat from the latter can harbor some pretty nasty viruses and bacteria – we hear about them all the time in the news – but the fact is that meat from animals who eat their natural diets and live in their natural habitats don’t get sick. And neither will you if you eat them.

Why Eat Raw Meat

Raw meat is easy to digest. Many people note that indigestion is eliminated after switching to raw meat, although one probably wouldn't have indigestion if they didn't eat grains.
Raw meat has more vitamins than cooked meat and contains enzymes for digestion.
Raw meat contains fewer free radicals and no heat-mutated proteins.
Raw fats help balance metabolism and detoxify the body._


More here:
http://theprimalparent.com/2011/04/06/it-is-safe-to-eat-raw-meat/

Four Years Eating Raw Meat | The Primal Parent


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

The dog gut uses different enzymes and chemicals to break down food. When the gut is used to digesting a certain type of food, the pancreas and digestive tract secrete a particular ratio of enzymes as the gut is prepared and used to a certain type of protein and carb. When you switch food, especially when the dog is not used to different proteins (chicken vs beef vs fish for example) or protein/fat ratio (30/20 vs 20/12), the gut needs time to adjust to this change. Switching too fast shocks the system and results in diarrhea and digestive issues. 

I have not had any issues switching suddenly when the dog is used to various proteins, or when the new food has the same protein/fat ratio as the old food


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Timowen1 said:


> You know I just don't understand the raw meat diet thing. I guess I need to
> research this more. I am on my 3rd GSD in 37 years. I never had more than
> one at a time the 1st was healthy and vet checked twice a year and always
> vaccinated. He lived 16 years. The second the same, we got 14 years out of him.
> ...


Kibble has changed in the past 20 or 30 yrs. Horse meat use to be the main protein in the 60's-70's. I don't think the fillers were as prominent then either. Back in the 80's Science Diet and Iams were 'cutting edge' and the best you could get. But was it really? 

I still think a versatile raw diet is better than the best kibble. The person feeding has more control in what their dog actually ingests. Knowledge should be first and foremost in any choice of nutrition fed.

I don't really think you can compare a dogs health from 30 yrs ago to now. Environment, breeding practices(pedigree bottlenecking) and nutrition all play into longevity.


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## jztherapist1 (Dec 16, 2012)

Dear Amaretto,

My German Shepherds are rarely if ever under the weather and most have lived into their teens. I'm not a big believer in fad diets and would certainly not fast them on a regular basis. 

These are not wild dogs who have go for long periods without eating because they have not taken down prey. I've had the most success with Petsmart Brand (Authority) Lamb and Rice Mini Chunks. Their poop is great and the food is both all natural and reasonably priced. 

My 13-year old gets Micro-Lactin, Cosequin, Arnica Montana and Vitamin C in each of her meals. This helped to virtually eliminate age-related arthritis and she is spry and fit. My 2-year old male gets Vitamin C and Salmon Oil caps in each meal. He, too, is in wonderful condition.

It's clear that your girl's diet is not agreeing with her. I would get back to basics, once she has had a health clearance (bloodwork and stool check) from your veterinarian. Give her a simple , all-natural kibble and throw in some raw chopped meat if it makes you feel good. Your dog's digestive system is letting you know that it's not happy.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Is raw a fad diet? Before I moved to the USA, my dogs were exclusively on raw. I never bought a bag of kibble until I came here. My dogs lived into the teens as well. 
I would certainly not call raw a fad diet

Just because your dog does well on a certain kibble, it does not mean every dog will. 

What does that mean "all natural kibble"? All kibble is processed and made in a factory using industrial methods.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i know this is the raw forum and i myself use raw foods but if necessary i would not hesitate to switch back to kibble
dogs are really omnivores and can derive nutrition from scavenging which is how they were designed to eat
kibble fed dogs live just as long as raw fed dogs 
they seriously do!
go to a vet clinic and watch the average dog come in for euthanasia at the end of a long happy life where it lived to perhaps 12-14 or even 15 or 16 and ask what the owner fed
chances are it was purina or ol roy

now of course there are better quality kibbles but the honest to god truth is that raw fed is more for the owners own peace of mind than for the dog
because plenty of dogs have shiny healthy coats on kibble and many have shiny healthy teeth if cared for and given a kong toy or other dental toy along with brushing or minimum care
yes in some ways raw is healthier but you cannot argue with basic facts and the fact is many more dogs are kibble fed than raw fed and they are doing just fine!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

People live until they're old on McDonald's, processed food, and sweets.
That doesn't mean they're feeding their bodies and getting optimal nutrition. 

Small dog I had in the 80s lived until he was 18 1/2 --on kibble. His nickname was Garbage Breath.

I always wonder how he would have done had I fed him raw.
I disagree that raw is for the owner's peace of mind.
My mom had two dogs she fed kibble. They stunk, ears were yeasty, they had itchy paws, they scratched all the time, and they had the most horrendous breath you have ever smelled. They lived to be old, but they did have these issues, plus dirty teeth and dry coats. 
And no, , they were not fed Ol' Roy or Purina.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I always wondered what's in dog food that makes switching foods such a project. Like you need to give a little with their current food for a week or so. Can someone explain?


I've never had a problem with switching kibble when I fed that to my previous dogs....since I am a cynic...I think it BS to a degree....to dissuade owners from switching brands..did I mention I was a cynic ??


SuperG


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I have noticed that issues usually arise when you go from a lower protein and fat ratio to a higher protein/fat. If you stay within a similar nutrient range, they tend to not have issues with transitioning.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

qbchottu said:


> I have noticed that issues usually arise when you go from a lower protein and fat ratio to a higher protein/fat. If you stay within a similar nutrient range, they tend to not have issues with transitioning.



Agreed...I could see a higher fat ratio being problematic....perhaps


SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> They stunk, ears were yeasty, they had itchy paws, they scratched all the time, and they had the most horrendous breath you have ever smelled.


theres a lot more to this than just kibble
owners who care tend to switch kibble until they find one that agrees with the dog
just like you said about your dog and chicken 'dogs can have bad rreactions to kibble too
and it takes a change of brands to fix em up
raw is wonderful but people should not be made to feel they are killing their dogs by feeding kibble because truth is they aint


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

my boy diesel said:


> theres a lot more to this than just kibble
> owners who care tend to switch kibble until they find one that agrees with the dog
> just like you said about your dog and chicken 'dogs can have bad rreactions to kibble too
> and it takes a change of brands to fix em up
> raw is wonderful but* people should not be made to feel they are killing their dogs by feeding kibble because truth is they aint*


I have to disagree. The recalls of kibble, and deaths that were going on around the beginning of 2007 were enough to make me switch to raw. My sister had Onyx's littermate and the Nutro recall was just the beginning. Her pup got deathly ill, Parvo was not the cause, and after 3 weeks of vetting, he passed away. Pup was fed Nutro. She didn't have a necropsy done, yet the coincidence of dogs dying during that time were telling. I decided to not feed kibble shortly after that. Between the transporting in extreme heat, the manufacturing processes which are also compromising quality, I'll stay with my grocery store or raw distributor and feed the lesser evil, lol


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Who said people were killing dogs by feeding kibble?

This whole discussion started when somebody posted a bunch of links and said the fact is that raw is horrible and dangerous.
It doesn't surprise me that one person thinks that raw is horrible, but people who are not posting are reading, and they need to hear all sides in order to make an informed decision for their pet.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

A lot of people mistake their dogs doing poorly on raw when they first switch and blaming raw when in reality it's actually detoxing which will pass so it's crucial that you not switch back to kibble until the dog is done detoxing. Detox - The Dog's Dinner - by Ann Ridyard

That said yes I agree not every dog will thrive on raw. Dogs have salmonella in their digestive tracts whether they eat raw or kibble... Several thousand dogs have been killed by contaminated kibble over the last few years so I'll take my chances with raw. I have never had an issue and clean up just like when I'm preparing raw meat to cook for myself... I've never gotten sick and my dogs have never gotten sick, they are HEALTHIER so why on earth would I want to go back to kibble?

If someone doesn't feel comfortable feeding raw, fine... I'm not going to make them feel bad about it or pressure them to switch. But I am sticking with what works and makes logical sense to me.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

The reason Marshies was having issues is because she fed WAY too much, it had nothing to do with salmonella or bacteria... my dog has thrown up when he ate too much of a whole chicken or if I introduced too many new things at once. But now that I feed the correct portions, etc he's back to normal.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Back to the original post, we don't even know if the dog ate the entire chicken, which could very well have been the problem! 
Doggy gluttony!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> theres a lot more to this than just kibble
> owners who care tend to switch kibble until they find one that agrees with the dog
> just like you said about your dog and chicken 'dogs can have bad rreactions to kibble too
> and it takes a change of brands to fix em up


I lost count of how many brands they tried.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Marshies posted that the chicken was not the 'norm' for size. But even a cornish game hen is more than I'd feed as far as ratio's go. And some chickens are so plumped up, it is scary to know how they got that way


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well the bottom line is to feed your dog what they are doing good on
if it aint broke dont fix it but if it is broke then do something different


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Marshies posted that the chicken was not the 'norm' for size. But even a cornish game hen is more than I'd feed as far as ratio's go. And some chickens are so plumped up, it is scary to know how they got that way


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

:rofl:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> I've never had a problem with switching kibble when I fed that to my previous dogs....since I am a cynic...I think it BS to a degree....to dissuade owners from switching brands..did I mention I was a cynic ??
> 
> 
> SuperG



I'm a cynic too but I haven't thought of this lol. Very possible))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Marshies posted that the chicken was not the 'norm' for size. But even a cornish game hen is more than I'd feed as far as ratio's go. And some chickens are so plumped up, it is scary to know how they got that way



I think they're smaller than that. I saw it at a Chinese store. I didn't study it but it looked like an anorexic chicken.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

It is VERY small.
There isn't a whole ton of meat on this chicken. 
I don't buy human groceries, so I googled up cornish hen and it looks to have less meat than that.

Either way guys, thanks for the contributions. I've sent her off today to board since i'm flying out tomorrow...I've asked the boarder to keep an eye. She was sent off with Orijen 6 fish and a carton of eggs to entice her to eat the kibble.

In terms of transitioning, Puppy has always transitioned well, she does well on all proteins, does great on kibble and raw. She really doesn't have issues...except this ONE time. In the past, her digestive issues were always linked to playing in fresh water. I suspect this may be similar, or it may be that I fed too much. Either way, I'm hoping she'll be fine. My parents are still in the city if, heaven forbids, she does need vet care. 

Thank you to everyone who took time to respond.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*"I don't buy human groceries,"

*What kind of groceries do you buy????


SuperG


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## Ute (Dec 6, 2013)

Hi there, I want to pick up on the description of the poop - always a popular topic. Has this just been a one off or do you see a soft or runny affair regularly? Also, how is your dog's weight? There are always various possibilities with underlying digestive issues and things like probiotic yoghurt can help. Pumpkin helps firm the poop but doesn't solve the problem if there is one. As Sunflower suggested, another protein could help if there is an allergic reaction to chicken. The most important possibility you want to eliminate is: epi (equine pancreatic insufficiecy). Watch the poops and weight, because if your dog can't digest properly the result will be huge and tyically runny, mucousy and increasingly yellowy stools. If this is an ongoing concern, the vet can do a test. It may not be this at all, but if it is, it needs managing immediately, usually with digestive enzymes. Hope this helps. 

Ute (Nena's & Blitz's mum)


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I thought the not buying human groceries was weird too? But there was another person on here that said the dog got sick after feeding it mutant and that was even weirder.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

volcano said:


> I thought the not buying human groceries was weird too? But there was another person on here that said the dog got sick after feeding it mutant and that was even weirder.


haha. I just meant I don't do groceries for my household, and only ever buy groceries for my Pup.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I don't do groceries for my household


well _that_ clarified things ! 

do you mean you grown your own stuff?


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