# Why You Shoudln't Listen to DogFoodAdvisor.com



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Dog Food Grains Linked to Allergies and Other Diseases

This is not true. 1) Bugs will eat literally any food that they can get access to, not just grain products and 2) These bugs typically will only eat food stuffs that have become wet, not dry foods and 3) All food products have to be stored in some way and he assumes there is no quality control. All food is subject to this risk.

Total rubbish..just an agenda website.

It is amazing he gets away with this stuff.

I am waiting for him to do a piece on the risk of Solanine poisoning from potatoes.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You've already made your position on dogfoodadviser.com quite clear many times before. Is it really necessary to start a thread just to bash them?


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You've already made your position on dogfoodadviser.com quite clear many times before. Is it really necessary to start a thread just to bash them?


 
yes actually


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe a thread should be started on why people shouldn't listen to hedge fund managers making dog food recommendations.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Maybe a thread should be started on why people shouldn't listen to hedge fund managers making dog food recommendations.


 
 Explain to my why his piece should not apply to grain-free foods and perhaps be about the risk of poor food storage in general.

"Grain Mites" is a generic term for a group of bugs, dozens, that eat stored foods. He is just taking people for a ride.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

jax08 said:


> maybe a thread should be started on why people shouldn't listen to hedge fund managers making dog food recommendations.


qft!


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Perhaps he should write about a real risk, knowing that the potatoes in many dog foods have been rejected by human food processors. You When this first happens, and it will, the grain-free craze will be over:


"The alkaloid in the potato is solanine. In the United States, healthy potatoes contain 1 to 5 milligrams of solanine per small potato. Under current FDA regulations, 20 milligrams of solanine per 100 grams (a small potato) can render it unfit to eat. 
Solanine is produced as the potato gets old or is exposed to light. So consumers should avoid potatoes that are old, sunburned (green under the skin) or spongy. Under these conditions, the solanine levels can increase sevenfold or more. Do not eat the potato eyes because they contain a high concentration of solanine. 
Toxic amounts of solanine can seriously affect the nervous system and have caused death"


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Explain to my why his piece should not apply to grain-free foods and perhaps be about the risk of poor food storage in general.
> 
> "Grain Mites" is a generic term for a group of bugs, dozens, that eat stored foods. He is just taking people for a ride.


Any food will go bad if not stored, or processed, properly. That is a silly point to argue.

The guy is a dentist or something like that, right? So what makes him LESS knowledgeable than you, the money manager? Neither of you are canine dietitians. I think it's foolish for anyone to just take anothers word for anything over the internet.


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Perhaps he should write about a real risk,


And perhaps, you'll learn to properly cite your sources one of these days. I won't be holding my breath.



sable123 said:


> "The alkaloid in the potato is solanine. In the United States, healthy potatoes contain 1 to 5 milligrams of solanine per small potato. Under current FDA regulations, 20 milligrams of solanine per 100 grams (a small potato) can render it unfit to eat.
> Solanine is produced as the potato gets old or is exposed to light. So consumers should avoid potatoes that are old, sunburned (green under the skin) or spongy. Under these conditions, the solanine levels can increase sevenfold or more. Do not eat the potato eyes because they contain a high concentration of solanine.
> Toxic amounts of solanine can seriously affect the nervous system and have caused death"


Above quote is from here:
The Food Domain: A Comprehensive Resource


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where is your quote from? You must cite references if you are going to quote it. GSD.com rules. 



sable123 said:


> Perhaps he should write about a real risk, knowing that the potatoes in many dog foods have been rejected by human food processors. You When this first happens, and it will, the grain-free craze will be over:
> 
> 
> "The alkaloid in the potato is solanine. In the United States, healthy potatoes contain 1 to 5 milligrams of solanine per small potato. Under current FDA regulations, 20 milligrams of solanine per 100 grams (a small potato) can render it unfit to eat.
> ...


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Look above you. LOL 

But I think possibly we SHOULDN'T listen to people who can't _spell_ shouldn't. 

Where does it state that potatoes used in dog food are human food rejects?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Any chance a sablefoodadvisor.com will be coming out in the near future? You'd rock the dog food world.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is true. You apparently only have to sound convincing and have a neat website to make any wild and false claim you want to, and have people believe it. After all, this _is_ the internet.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Folks, with all due respect, if you do not know about Solanine and its evil sister Chaconine do some research. 

As for the question about the quality of potatoes used in dog food. Well do you think Diamond and some others are breaking their backs to get the finest Idaho or Maine has to offer?

I have read reports of hogs dying from this very fast.

My point is that the good Dr. should be balanced. Sure, are some companies dirt bags about storage, yes, but don't assume poorly inspected and stored potatoes are safe. They are not safe.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know what they use, so if you could post some references, it would be helpful.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I don't know what they use, so if you could post some references, it would be helpful.


Canadian Poisonous Plants Information System

"Potato (_Solanum tuberosum_) is a common introduced garden plant cultivated for its edible tubers. The entire plant contains toxic glycoalkaloids but usually in harmless quantities in the edible tubers. However, in the presence of light, the tubers photosynthesize and coincidentally increase the amount of toxins. The skin, eyes, and sprouts of the tubers can develop toxic amounts. Even the flesh of the tuber can develop toxic quantities of the glycoalkaloids. Cattle, sheep, and swine as well as humans were poisoned and died after ingesting parts of potato plant. Other animals were also been poisoned experimentally. A dog became comatose after ingesting green potato tubers. The aboveground plant portion can also be toxic. The berries produced by the plant can contain 10-20 times more glycoalkaloids than the tubers (Cooper and Johnson 1984). The glycoalkaloids solanine and chaconine are not destroyed by normal cooking. Alkaloidal levels above 20 mg/100 g are considered unsafe for human consumption. Some cultivars have naturally high concentrations of alkaloids and have been rejected for use. Care should be taken to store potatoes in light-proof paper bags. If any green-colored potatoes are found, they should be discarded. Potato peelings and sprouts destined for a compost heap should be buried and kept from dogs or other animals. Sharma and Salunkhe (1989) provide an excellent review of potatoes and toxins and their effects on animals"


I am amazed that the same people that snicker, are not aware how dangerous a potato can be. Fortunately, for people, when you buy them in the store you can inspect them.

So brown rice, oats, corn and barley don't sound so bad, do they?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm looking for what happens to them in dog food, not how toxic they can be. 
I saw the other link. 
I was hoping you had a reference for the types (or better, grades) of potatoes used in dog food manufacturing, not just a hunch that they don't get "Idahos finest" potatoes.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I'm looking for what happens to them in dog food, not how toxic they can be.
> I saw the other link.
> I was hoping you had a reference for the types (or better, grades) of potatoes used in dog food manufacturing, not just a hunch that they don't get "Idahos finest" potatoes.


I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. A solanine outbreak will happen, when is the question.

There is a huge amount of complacency regarding the safety of foods with potatoes. There is also a lot of misinformation about the safety of grains. There is not one grain that has the ability to create toxins, not one.

Use the information as you like.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sable123 said:


> I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. A solanine outbreak will happen, when is the question.
> 
> There is a huge amount of complacency regarding the safety of foods with potatoes. There is also a lot of misinformation about the safety of grains. There is not one grain that has the ability to create toxins, not one.
> 
> Use the information as you like.


There's also a million and one things that _may_ cause cancer these days too.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Really. You've not heard of Aflatoxin??

Cornell University Department of Animal Science


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I wonder if the potatoes go straight into the dog food or if they are processed into flakes first. Or dehydrated another way. 
That's why I'm asking, sable, not to be contentious but to point out that you don't know. Maybe you should contact one of the dog food manufacturers and find out?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't know a solanine from a solenoid or a dentist from a hedge fund manager from a general contractor, but I know I have some serious differences of opinion with all of the dog food rating sites out there. 

Their information is often out of date and their rating method is too simplistic and too heavily skewed in favor of grain-free.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. A solanine outbreak will happen, when is the question.
> 
> There is a huge amount of complacency regarding the safety of foods with potatoes. There is also a lot of misinformation about the safety of grains. *There is not one grain that has the ability to create toxins, not one.*
> 
> Use the information as you like.





msvette2u said:


> *Really. You've not heard of Aflatoxin??*
> 
> Cornell University Department of Animal Science



But aflatoxin is not created by grain breaking down. Per the quote above, solanine IS produced when the potato breaks down.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Aflatoxin: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

More about Aflatoxins.

*The mold that produces aflatoxin may be found in the following foods:

Peanuts and peanut butter
Tree nuts such as pecans
Corn
Wheat
Oil seeds such as cottonseed*


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Really. You've not heard of Aflatoxin??
> 
> Cornell University Department of Animal Science


Yes I do. 1) The Aflatoxin outbreak only happened at the South Carolina Plant of Diamond. 2) It is not something made by a grain, it is a contaminant, 3) It is simple to test for, Diamond just decided not to. & 4) It is the result of bad storage

So yes, it is a bad thing but not something created by the grain. Created by greed and stupidity.

Again you miss the point. The complacency regarding the use of potatoes is very high, when this is the case bad things happen.

Be guided,


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> But aflatoxin is not created by grain breaking down. Per the quote above, solanine IS produced when the potato breaks down.


Well...if by "breaking down" you mean normal aging or molding, yes, it is caused by that process. 
I'd say a potato "breaking down" is a normal aging process for that potato.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I wonder if the potatoes go straight into the dog food or if they are processed into flakes first. Or dehydrated another way.
> That's why I'm asking, sable, not to be contentious but to point out that you don't know. Maybe you should contact one of the dog food manufacturers and find out?


Some foods use fresh potatoes others use dried products, but it doesn't matter because heat does not neutralize these toxins.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Well...if by "breaking down" you mean normal aging or molding, yes, it is caused by that process.
> I'd say a potato "breaking down" is a normal aging process for that potato.


Solanine begins the moment the potato is exposed to light.

Why are you arguing with scientific fact?

Yikes, this is a real risk. I remember 25 years ago a whole grade of school kids almost died after eating lunch.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If they are there already but if they weren't, they wouldn't develop them. The dried product could be said to be in stasis at that point.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sable123 said:


> Solanine begins the moment the potato is exposed to light.
> 
> Why are you arguing with scientific fact?


I did not argue with the fact. I said it's a normal aging process. Yes they turn green and produce toxins. That's hardly a new fact to me, as I've thrown out potatoes for the same reason.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> If they are there already but if they weren't, they wouldn't develop them. The dried product could be said to be in stasis at that point.


Yes that is true. It is still a risk. 

You are like many people that have so much invested physcologically in "grain-free" feeding that you cannot see the risk. It will happen, trust me.

This could be far worse than anything yet seen in pet food contamination. Far, far worse.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I am?? 
Wow I didn't know that!
Is that why I use dog food with grain in it!??
Perhaps you should have asked what I feed before "pegging" me!


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Considering I know people whose dogs were killed by the melamine contamination of China-sourced wheat gluten in 2007, if I'm ever, for whatever reason, forced to go back to feeding kibble, the last thing I'm going to be looking at is grain-inclusive foods. When you wake up to find a dead dog, it hardly matters whether what killed him was a contaminant or something produced by a natural break-down of an ingredient before cooking/processing. It's still there, and it's still deadly. And the biggest outbreaks of potentially deadly contaminants or bacteria have, surprise surprise, been almost exclusively confined to grain-inclusive foods.

May have something to do with mine being allergic to wheat of course but grains are hardly more trustworthy because of some bizarre perception that something else is "worse," whether that's actually true or not.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Draugr said:


> Considering I know people whose dogs were killed by the melamine contamination of china-sourced wheat gluten in 2007, if I'm ever, for whatever reason, forced to go back to feeding kibble, the last thing I'm going to be looking at is grain-inclusive foods. When you wake up to find a dead dog, it hardly matters whether what killed him was a contaminant or something produced by a natural break-down of an ingredient before cooking/processing. It's still there, and it's still deadly.
> 
> May have something to do with mine being allergic to wheat of course but grains are hardly more trustworthy because of some bizarre perception that something else is "worse," whether that's actually true or not.


You missed my point entirely. I am not saying there are no risks. What I am saying is if Dogfoodadvisor.com wants to be a legtimate source of information it should be completely truthful and objective. That piece is about food storage not about grains. His slobbering love affair with potato-based foods should be tempered with the facts that poorly stored potatoes can and will kill, just like poorly stored grains.

Likewise, some crooked chinese companies lacing wheat gluten is certainly not a reflection on the merits of wheat gluten.

Also, there is more risk to feeding raw than feeding a commercial food, both from a nutritional and safety standpoint. That is fact.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Also, there is more risk to feeding raw than feeding a commercial food, both from a nutritional and safety standpoint. That is fact.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Draugr said:


>


Smirk all you want, just read the threads on here. Would you let some of those people feed your dog? That is the majority of raw feeders.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

sable123 said:


> Smirk all you want, just read the threads on here. Would you let some of those people feed your dog? That is the majority of raw feeders.


Sure I would.

I'd never let _you_ within a mile's reach of him, however.

~

It's a minority viewpoint in most circles of the dog world that we're smart enough to feed ourselves and too stupid to feed our dogs.

Probably because that viewpoint is completely nonsensical.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sable123 said:


> Folks, with all due respect, if you do not know about Solanine and its evil sister Chaconine do some research.


Didya ever notice that when people say "with all due respect" they're about to be anything BUT respectful? 



sable123 said:


> Also, there is more risk to feeding raw than feeding a commercial food, both from a nutritional and safety standpoint. That is fact.


Nutritional I can understand... there are plenty of people out there who think "raw feeding" involves feeding a single protein source (like chicken leg quarters) and nothing else (no organs and not enough MEAT in the diet).

I don't understand what higher risk there is from a "safety standpoint," however. Care to elaborate? Respectfully, of course.


----------



## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Draugr said:


>


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Didya ever notice that when people say "with all due respect" they're about to be anything BUT respectful?
> 
> 
> Nutritional I can understand... there are plenty of people out there who think "raw feeding" involves feeding a single protein source (like chicken leg quarters) and nothing else (no organs and not enough MEAT in the diet).
> ...


 
Safety? Intestinal obstructions, from both undigested bones and even masses of fused calcium, palette and throat injuries, broken teeth, infections to both the dog and the people in the family.

Even breeders notice that some raw fed dogs just don't develop properly. I have heard many mention unexplainable difference in puppies as they mature.

Hey listen I have a freezer full of green tripe, some of it from local deer hunters, but I am not blind of the risk of bacterial shedding. I don't assume its risk free.

And, yes yes, raw bones should be ok, should be ok, but I know several dogs that have suffered deadly injuries from the chicken and turkey leg bones. They are hollow and they are sharp.

Again, there is risk to everything in life but too many people don't realize this because of what I call the 'wolf romance'. 

There is not one shred of evidence raw feeding is better, but plenty that it is not. 

If you know what you are doing it is a nice thing for the dog, not required but nice, but for the vast majority of people out there, stick with Pro Plan.

I have seen raw fed dogs in competition and they lack stamina and have horrible muscle tone most likely because their diets are totally out of balance.


----------



## shets114 (Dec 31, 2006)

So what's your thoughts on dogfoodanalysis.com?


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

even worse


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I read 3 pages and page #5 -- solanine , potatoes belong to the nightshade family. A potato actually is a better source for potassium than a banana which many erroneously think is a richer source . Important for those who want to lower their blood pressure.
The problem with potatoes is that they have to be handled correctly. When the potato tuber is exposed to sunlight / light the potato begins to get green , indicating that a process has begun where solanine develops and this is toxic. Eat a green potato and you will have stomach upset and flu like symptoms, achy muscles , achy joints.
Potatoes should be kept in the dark , in a bin, or paper bags. Don't buy or use potatoes that have a green tinge.
For dog food I wouldn't be comfortable with assuming that human edible ingredients are used , so green or turning green potatoes are possible. However grains are not human edible - often waste and certainly not sprouted or soaked to remove phytates (phytic acid) which inhibits mineral absorption through an enzyme inhibitor . 
use kibble -- demand quality .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I read 3 pages and page #5 -- solanine , potatoes belong to the nightshade family. A potato actually is a better source for potassium than a banana which many erroneously think is a richer source . Important for those who want to lower their blood pressure.
> The problem with potatoes is that they have to be handled correctly. When the potato tuber is exposed to sunlight / light the potato begins to get green , indicating that a process has begun where solanine develops and this is toxic. Eat a green potato and you will have stomach upset and flu like symptoms, achy muscles , achy joints.
> Potatoes should be kept in the dark , in a bin, or paper bags. Don't buy or use potatoes that have a green tinge.
> For dog food I wouldn't be comfortable with assuming that human edible ingredients are used , so green or turning green potatoes are possible. However grains are not human edible - often waste and certainly not sprouted or soaked to remove phytates (phytic acid) which inhibits mineral absorption through an enzyme inhibitor .
> ...


What you say about grains being waste is hyperbole. Just because kernels are broken does not make the grain unsafe or unusable for pet food. Brewers Rice for example is not waste from a brewery it is just broken rice from the milling process.

Many foods use human grade rice, oats, barley and corn, and any food made in an EU Cert facility must use a human grade.

The problem with potatoes is potentially worse. Just a small amount can result in death. Hopefully it won't happen.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Maybe you can finally tell us who you are, sable, and why we should listen to YOU. opcorn: 

Anyone can be an internet expert when you're anonymous.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Maybe you can finally tell us who you are, sable, and why we should listen to YOU. opcorn:
> 
> Anyone can be an internet expert when you're anonymous.[/QUOTE
> 
> Amen Sista


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I need some opcorn: for this one!!


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I need some opcorn: for this one!!


Does eating popcorn mean you're NOT on a grain-free diet?


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Does eating popcorn mean you're NOT on a grain-free diet?


Uh-oh! Maybe they can make potato-corn? Or is that pop-potatoes?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Maybe you can finally tell us who you are, sable, and why we should listen to YOU. opcorn:
> 
> Anyone can be an internet expert when you're anonymous.


He runs a hedge fund. I believe in NYC.

And sable... I said this in an earlier post in a half joking kind of way, but in all seriousness, have you ever considered puting together your own website or forum? You obviously have strong opinions regarding pet food diets and you don't like the ones out there (and i agree with you about that), so why not just create your own? I'm sure you'll draw plenty of attention - both positive and negative.


----------



## Bigdogsolo (Nov 6, 2011)

Its all above my pay grade, but makes for interesting fodder...uh I mean fooder!


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> He runs a hedge fund. I believe in NYC.
> 
> And sable... I said this in an earlier post in a half joking kind of way, but in all seriousness, have you ever considered puting together your own website or forum? You obviously have strong opinions regarding pet food diets and you don't like the ones out there (and i agree with you about that), so why not just create your own? I'm sure you'll draw plenty of attention - both positive and negative.


Well, hedgehogs are sable.
And what are Sable's creds? Just another voice in the wilderness?
Opinions are like, well, you know.
And everyone has one.


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I think the thing that baffles me the most about you, Sable, is that you seem determined to convince the members of this forum that whatever their method is of feeding THEIR dogs is wrong, unless it is YOUR method. Not only that, but if we are not taking your advice, then we are putting our dogs at serious risk for health issues. 

Just as we've all known someone who's fed their dog crappy food and they lived to be 14 years old, we also known people who've done the same feeding raw or grain free foods. No one knows a dog and it's needs better than the person raising and caring for them. WE are the ones who see first hand the results in feeding in our dogs. It's not something we've heard on a training field or read on the Internet or knew of some long ago breeder that did it. I believe most of us are capable enough adults to understand that not all dogs require the same diet or carry the same needs and that there is no ONE FITS ALL diet or food. 

I know that you are convinced that the majority of us are brainwashed, grain free, raw loving fools, but I can assure you, that at least in my case, that is 
hardly the truth...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lakl said:


> I know that you are convinced that the majority of us are brainwashed, grain free, raw loving fools...


Yep, that does seem to be his deal, but even if it were true, (which it's not), why should he care? It's like a true believer spreading their religious cause at gunpoint, cramming it down everyone's throat for their own good.  People are going to believe what they're going to believe and they're going to do what they're going to. 

Get over it, sable. The crappy attitude and insults certain aren't helping your cause any either.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> Does eating popcorn mean you're NOT on a grain-free diet?


:laugh: Pshaw. I love grains


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Uh-oh! Maybe they can make potato-corn? Or is that pop-potatoes? 

Hey , no need there are lots and lots of Potato chips to tempt us .


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

sable123 said:


> Perhaps he should write about a real risk, knowing that the potatoes in many dog foods have been rejected by human food processors. You When this first happens, and it will, the grain-free craze will be over.


 There's plenty of potential risks as far as pet food ingredients go. I don't believe any kibble contains 100% human grade food. Potatoes are just one of many ingredients that in kibble that are likely to have been rejected by human food processors. Just one other example, cows not approved at the USDA slaughterhouses for human consumption go to rendering companies to be used in pet food.




sable123 said:


> Yes I do. 1) The Aflatoxin outbreak only happened at the South Carolina Plant of Diamond. 2) It is not something made by a grain, it is a contaminant, 3) It is simple to test for, Diamond just decided not to. & 4) It is the result of bad storage
> 
> So yes, it is a bad thing but not something created by the grain. Created by greed and stupidity.


 
Aflatoxins are not just something that happened to Diamond. It is overall one of the most common reasons for kibble to be recalled over the years. Innova had an Aflatoxin issue years ago. And I know of a dog who nearly died due to allowable amounts of aflatoxons in Wellness - he was just very sensitive to it. 

There is a risk of aflatoxins in any processed food (and a few raw foods as well) containing grain or nuts. Nearly all peanut butter contains aflatoxins. It is so common in that FDA has guidelines pertaining to what is considered an allowable amount:

"Aflatoxins are considered unavoidable contaminants of food and feed, even where good manufacturing practices have been followed. The FDA has established specific guidelines on acceptable levels of aflatoxins in human food and animal feed by establishing action levels that allow for the removal of violative lots from commerce. The action level for human food is 20 ppb total aflatoxins, with the exception of milk which has an action level of 0.5 ppb for aflatoxin M1. The action level for most feeds is also 20 ppb. However, it is very difficult to accurately estimate aflatoxins concentration in a large







quantity of material because of the variability associated with testing procedures; hence, the true aflatoxin concentration in a lot cannot be determined with 100% certainty."



Also aflatoxins may be pretty worrisome even in low amounts over a long period of time:

"Because aflatoxins, especially aflatoxin B1, are potent carcinogens in some animals, there is interest in the effects of long-term exposure to low levels of these important mycotoxins on humans .* In 1988, the IARC placed aflatoxin B1 on the list of human carcinogens.* This is supported by a number of epidemiological studies done in Asia and Africa that have demonstrated a *positive association between dietary aflatoxins and Liver Cell Cancer (LCC) .*"

Cornell University Department of Animal Science


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

sable123 said:


> Safety? Intestinal obstructions, from both undigested bones and even masses of fused calcium, palette and throat injuries, broken teeth, infections to both the dog and the people in the family.


I have been raw feeding for over a decade. In that time I estimate that I have fed over 10 THOUSAND pounds of raw meat - both with and without bone. I have feed fresh raw meat and stuff that smells so bad it would singe your nose hairs. I have also raised and butchered meat rabbits.

I have whelped two litters and weaned directly to raw. The pups that remained raw fed are doing fine. I have switched 8 week old puppies to raw (both mine and any fosters). I have switched adults to raw. I even switched an ancient, very sick Husky to raw.

In all that time I have NEVER ONCE had a dog get a bowel obstruction, palette or throat injury, broken tooth nor have myself or my dogs gotten sick.

Statistically speaking, if the problems you listed are all that common then I should have been affected by at LEAST one of them.



> If you know what you are doing it is a nice thing for the dog, not required but nice, but for the vast majority of people out there, stick with Pro Plan.
> 
> I have seen raw fed dogs in competition and they lack stamina and have horrible muscle tone most likely because their diets are totally out of balance.


I can't say I've ever met an *OVERWEIGHT* _raw fed_ dog but I could walk down my street and point out at least a dozen fat KIBBLE fed dogs.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I have been raw feeding for over a decade. In that time I estimate that I have fed over 10 THOUSAND pounds of raw meat - both with and without bone. I have feed fresh raw meat and stuff that smells so bad it would singe your nose hairs. I have also raised and butchered meat rabbits.
> 
> I have whelped two litters and weaned directly to raw. The pups that remained raw fed are doing fine. I have switched 8 week old puppies to raw (both mine and any fosters). I have switched adults to raw. I even switched an ancient, very sick Husky to raw.
> 
> ...


 
Well all those things happen frequently. Its obvious you love your animals and spend enormous amounts of time taking care of them, but in serious competition raw fed dogs just don't cut it.

Despite the time and money people dedicate to this hobby, their dogs are no healthier and will live no longer than a dog eating Blue Seal Krunchies. That is fact. Every Vet school in the school in the country and overseas cannot find any link between health and longevity and the price of the food.

One of my best friends owns a large family owned feed store that carries over 50 brands of food from crappy CoreStates Coop to the most expensive dehydrated, and he feeds his Newfies Blue Seal Natural 26. He once told me he had ethical issues selling useless expensive foods but with 4 daughters to put through school and get married he really had no choice.

He also told me the more expensive the food the lower the repeat buying, which only means people don't see any difference.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Overweight dogs has more to do with the amount fed then the type food fed, sorry but that is a fact. 
Kibble does not automatically equal fat dogs no more than raw automatically equal thin dogs. 

What you're probably seeing is that some people (the kind that should not own dogs at all) just pour food into a bowl and think it's the right amount, or else they read the bag instead of reading the dog and if it's becoming chunky. 

I'm sure raw feeders have given more thought into preparing their dogs' food, not necessarily more thought and care than a kibble feeder who feeds higher qualities and in a set/measured amount, but more than most average folks who, again, go by the bag's suggested amount, or maybe even free feed.

But the type of food, raw vs. kibble, does not alone make a thinner or fatter dog. Along with how much food is fed, there's also factors like how much exercise a pet gets and it's individual metabolism. 

Just wanted to clarify that.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

sable123 said:


> but in serious competition raw fed dogs just don't cut it.


And this statement is based on what exactly?

I know more than a few dogs in agility, obedience, tracking and schutzhund and other protection sports, lure coursing, terrier racing, and weight pull that are raw fed and do just fine in "serious competition". There is certainly no lack of muscle mass, stamina, or any of the other claims you have made against raw.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

second Chris. Almost 30 years now of feeding raw , dogs that have stamina to run along top ranking dogs being trained for the Iditarod . Dogs living long and pain free , with luxurious coats , no issues , good orthopedics . 
When you feed raw you see and know what you are feeding. I go directly to the slaughter house . I SEE what the kibble companies use . Think it is that plump chicken that they show on the promotions for kibble company -- I can tell you it is not . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

sable123 said:


> ... in serious competition raw fed dogs just don't cut it.


And you can prove this how??



sable123 said:


> Every Vet school in the school in the country and overseas cannot find any link between health and longevity and the price of the food.


I wasn't aware that vets are now deeply studying nutrition in dogs, or that anyone was insinuating the link between health and the price of food. I'm pretty sure the argument here has more or less been about the quality of ingredients??



sable123 said:


> He also told me the more expensive the food the lower the repeat buying, *which only means people don't see any difference*.


This statement is laughable at best. More often than not, it's because people are trying to find cheaper alternatives to feeding their dogs.

Almost every statement you make seems to be based on what someone told you, what you heard, or what you read somewhere. I've seen the difference FIRST HAND in my 4 dogs who are 3 different breeds and range in age from 10 months to almost 10 years. I've seen the affects of feeding cheap grain filled foods, to higher quality grain free, to feeding RAW (to which I now love and will stay with). Why don't you stop preaching what you've heard or read and tell us what you've actually witnessed during your VAST experience... Just my thoughts...


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And after all this, I'm still trying to find one single reason why I should listen to Sable123 . . .


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> And after all this, I'm still trying to find one single reason why I should listen to Sable123 . . .


I think we're all asking ourselves that question :S.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> And after all this, I'm still trying to find one single reason why I should listen to Sable123 . . .


He has some good things to say, and he has some wild things to say. He's on one end of the spectrum-- websites that want you to spend $90 on a 30lb bag of grain-free food from Canada are on the other end of the spectrum. (Oh wait, you're in Canada. That one might be a good choice for you. Maybe it's more affordable up there. ) I don't wholeheartedly subscribe to either one, but somewhere in the middle is good sense. 

Both my dogs eat kibbles that were recommended by Sable. My senior eats Precise and my 1-year old eats Victor. Good quality foods made in my state from USA ingredients, neither one is made by a giant corporation, neither one has ever been involved in a recall, and they fit my budget.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

With some of the kibble recommendations  they've made, I'd _feed_ raw if that was my only kibble choice!



> but somewhere in the middle is good sense.


We feed and recommend Kirkland signature, no corn, wheat or by-products and no soy. I do not like soy in dog food, it makes them too gassy as a rule. 
To our allergic dogs we feed Natural Balance, as the other brands of limited ingredients were not as limited as they needed to be, or whatever. I may rethink white potatoes in food, or at least watch for potential side effects. 
I am in no way opposed to grains in foods but do think corn is hard to digest except if you're a chicken. 
We recommend adopters read labels, avoid the above ingredients and look at (for instance) Kirkland, Blue Buffalo, Wellness and a few others we've listed. If they have a natural food pet store where they live, we often recommend they talk to those folks about which foods to choose, and recommend against grocery store brands. 
As for our own feeding (and feeding the rescue/foster dogs) we like to take the position that "it isn't broken so we're not going to fix it". 
None of our "kibble fed" dogs are fat, they are a 3 (perfect body score) whenever we take them to the vet, no matter what vet we use (sometimes it's a Saturday so we have to see a different clinic). It has more to do with the amounts fed, measuring and watching the dog's body, and knowing when their weight has started to creep up (winter's harder as we're outdoors less) than the type of food.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I can see both sides. My first encounter with Sable was him rambling on for pages about dogfoodadvisor, after I recommended someone could go on there to see a list of ingredients. I never stated that one should base their decision on the website, but merely see all the ingredients of different foods on one site. So at first I was a little put off, and all in all reading a lot of his posts, his delivery ummmmm (trying to not use a curse word) However one on one in messaging he took the time to make some recommendations for our 2 dogs....I can't wait until we get low on food to try his suggestions as they have everything we seem to need at a much better price.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> And this statement is based on what exactly?
> 
> I know more than a few dogs in agility, obedience, tracking and schutzhund and other protection sports, lure coursing, terrier racing, and weight pull that are raw fed and do just fine in "serious competition". There is certainly no lack of muscle mass, stamina, or any of the other claims you have made against raw.





carmspack said:


> second Chris. Almost 30 years now of feeding raw , dogs that have stamina to run along top ranking dogs being trained for the Iditarod . Dogs living long and pain free , with luxurious coats , no issues , good orthopedics .


And with that being said, in the sled dog world, a lot of the mushers *FEED THEIR DOGS RAW! * Serious canine athletes! Same goes for Greyhound racers. Their diets, or at least some component of them, is RAW MEAT.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> And with that being said, in the sled dog world, a lot of the mushers *FEED THEIR DOGS RAW! *Serious canine athletes! Same goes for Greyhound racers. Their diets, or at least some component of them, is RAW MEAT.


Raw meat consumption in sled dogs is dropping very quickly and is probably less than 25% because the foods have improved so much. In short races, people don't do it anymore. Also, one of the reasons that fresh meat is given is to help with hydration.

I know on Dr. Tim's teams fresh meat supplementation is minimal. I know two Annamaet teams in New England that do not supplement at all.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> And after all this, I'm still trying to find one single reason why I should listen to Sable123 . . .


Because he says you should, and if you don't, you're just as brainwashed as the rest of them!!!! :angryfire::angryfire:


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Because he says you should, and if you don't, you're just as brainwashed as the rest of them!!!! :angryfire::angryfire:


Because I will pass on things that I have learned from the top people in nutrition, Robert Downey, Tim Hunt, Egil Ellis, Brent Sass, etc.

They would chuckle at what goes on and what people spend on food for regular dogs. One of those guys sells Dr. Tim's all over Alaska for $1lb. 35/25 possibly the best food every sold.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's all in the delivery, Sable. Hopefully one of these days you'll learn that. Maybe even people will start taking you seriously.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> It's all in the delivery, Sable. Hopefully one of these days you'll learn that. Maybe even people will start taking you seriously.


Thanks for the tip


----------



## golfbum (Jan 11, 2010)

I for one love having Sable123 on this board. I feel that he at least explains why he feels the way he does and goes out of his way to help find a food that may work better. I am a novice dog owner and started my pups on grainfree top end kibble like Acana and Orijen with very mixed results. I then studied my butt off and went with RAW for my first female, she did have a bowel obstruction and on my vets recommendation (not against RAW at all) went back to kibble. After having dogs for the last two years with average coats and mixed stool, I am now feeding Fromm Gold and although we are only a couple weeks in I like what I see so far. Stools are better and coats seem to be improving. I do supplement with raw meat and fish oil however. 

As for the grainfree kibbles, I am not sure why the carbs/starches used in these foods are any better then grains???

Flame away!!!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know as "better" is how I see it, but some grains are particularly hard to digest and some dogs are allergic to them. So...better _for that dog _perhaps, but not necessarily better overall.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I like having Sable123 around on these boards too. Good comic relief. I love waiting to see what he's going to say next.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

sable123 said:


> I have seen raw fed dogs in competition and they lack stamina and have horrible muscle tone most likely because their diets are totally out of balance.


 I haven't personally had that issue with my raw fed dogs at all.


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I personally have no issue with grains. My girl is allergic and that's why I switched to grain free. However, the prices on quality grain free and lack of decent selections in my area led me to try RAW. My dogs have never been healthier, especially my yorkie who's going on 10 years old. My dogs don't smell, I don't have to do poop pick up in the yard, they're all now at healthy, easy to maintain weights, sparkling teeth, beautiful coats, and shedding has reduced drastically since switching them. I think it's great if Sable123 wants to help others find an inexpensive grain kibble to feed their dogs, if that's what works for them. But to basically bash others because they choose or simply cannot go that route is just ridiculous and pointless.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our poor kibble fed dogs "don't smell" either. We bathe them about 2x a year. 
I don't think raw is unhealthy like some but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of dog feeding either and when I see claims like "my dog's don't smell", it makes me wonder, how bad they smelled before!? 

I did try raw for a while. 
My dog actually got fat on it. And itched badly. He was allergic to chicken (I was using chicken!). A switch to a chicken free diet, usually venison/sweet potato or salmon/sweet potato has helped tremendously, he is now trim and fit. And, like the rest (always have) he smells just fine.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Lakl said:


> I personally have no issue with grains. My girl is allergic and that's why I switched to grain free. However, the prices on quality grain free and lack of decent selections in my area led me to try RAW. My dogs have never been healthier, especially my yorkie who's going on 10 years old. My dogs don't smell,* I don't have to do poop pick up in the yard*, they're all now at healthy, easy to maintain weights, sparkling teeth, beautiful coats, and shedding has reduced drastically since switching them. I think it's great if Sable123 wants to help others find an inexpensive grain kibble to feed their dogs, if that's what works for them. But to basically bash others because they choose or simply cannot go that route is just ridiculous and pointless.


Curious about that? I would switch to anything that eliminates pooping:wild:


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Same with me and the raw diet.

I no longer have to pick up poop in the yard whereas before in a matter of weeks the back yard (his "potty area") was a toxic waste dump. NOTHING went away until I cleaned it up no matter how much time had passed. This was even on a higher quality grain-free diet. And for certain people who think that was the problem, my dog's best friend is on Purina ONE, is the same size dog, and it's the same story. It stays, and it stays, and it stays, and it stays.

Now I can let him poop wherever he wants and know that in just a few days it will have deteriorated/decomposed into nothing.

I still pick it up if he has to go in public, of course, but at home...no need.


----------



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Draugr said:


> I like having Sable123 around on these boards too. Good comic relief. I love waiting to see what he's going to say next.


How about you are a fool.

When you whelp 20 litters have raised 3 NAVHDA VC's, numerous AKC Hunt Awards and 5 NAVHDA breeder awards you can come to talk to me. I have one GSD that I a friend left to me. 13 dogs total. A 75K kennel with 3 acres of fenced area with a pond.

You are like every other know nothing that walks around shows snickering at the best dogs in the country eating nothing but Pro Plan or Eukanuba.

You have a lot to learn. You are 24 years old and should listen rather than parrot Tom Lonsdale books, who by the way is not a nutritionist.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

sable123 said:


> How about you are a fool.
> 
> When you whelp 20 litters have raised 3 NAVHDA VC's, numerous AKC Hunt Awards and 5 NAVHDA breeder awards you can come to talk to me. I have one GSD that I a friend left to me. 13 dogs total. A 75K kennel with 3 acres of fenced area with a pond.
> 
> ...


XD

Skin off my back.

You truly are amusing. Keep it up. Kind of like a defeated animal. When they know they've lost they're just throwing out token pathetic resistance. Although I have to admit, as bland and boring as "fool" and "know nothing" are, they're not ones you hear often.

"I've done this and I've done that" mean nothing on the internet when you are a nameless face, especially when you're spouting nonsense about how great corn is for a carnivorous species, and slamming other diets every chance you get.

Or when it's known you're a hedge fund manager for a dog food company. Ulterior motive, much?


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Who the **** is tom lonsdale????

And as others have mentioned people might take you seriously if your presentation wasn't so horrible. And if you didn't spend all of it parroting crap for the ones that write your paycheck.


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Our poor kibble fed dogs "don't smell" either. We bathe them about 2x a year.
> I don't think raw is unhealthy like some but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of dog feeding either and when I see claims like "my dog's don't smell", it makes me wonder, how bad they smelled before!?
> 
> I did try raw for a while.
> My dog actually got fat on it. And itched badly. He was allergic to chicken (I was using chicken!). A switch to a chicken free diet, usually venison/sweet potato or salmon/sweet potato has helped tremendously, he is now trim and fit. And, like the rest (always have) he smells just fine.


Which further proves my point that one diet doesn't work for ALL dogs. You're sharing you're experience with one dog on raw, I'm sharing my experience with 4 dogs, 3 different breeds, in age range from pup to 10 yrs and weight from 5lbs to 70. If you're dog does great on kibble, three cheers to you. I don't knock anyone on what they choose to feed and if you ever heard me say my choice or 
RAW was THE BEST, then let me know. And YES, they did smell bad before, and I bathed them once a month or took them to the groomers. They were on Taste of the Wild, and then Natural Balance for awhile. I can't tell you the last time they've been bathed since I switched them to raw. 

I really don't understand the RAW haters out there. Like those of us that feed RAW are simply making stuff up in order to promote our ideals. I'm not promoting anything, simply sharing MY experience. It doesn't break my heart if RAW doesn't work for you!


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Draugr said:


> Same with me and the raw diet.
> 
> I no longer have to pick up poop in the yard whereas before in a matter of weeks the back yard (his "potty area") was a toxic waste dump. NOTHING went away until I cleaned it up no matter how much time had passed. This was even on a higher quality grain-free diet. And for certain people who think that was the problem, my dog's best friend is on Purina ONE, is the same size dog, and it's the same story. It stays, and it stays, and it stays, and it stays.
> 
> ...


Holy cow, can I relate! It was the absolute worst ever when they were on Natural Balance. They each pooped about five times a day and the smell was enough to make me gag!  Personally, I think it was the amount of sweet potatoes used in the ingredients cause it wasn't as bad when they were on TOTW, but scooping is something I definitely don't miss!!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't hate raw feeders. 

I just hate how they make kibble feeders seem lazy/cheap/whatever


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not a raw hater, I am lazy, cheap, whatever. I am also not a nutritionist. So I leave it to the experts. And if I do not like how my dogs are doing, I switch. I supplement with the occasional home-cooked meal, and raw meat and bones. But the vast majority is kibble.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Lakl said:


> Holy cow, can I relate! It was the absolute worst ever when they were on Natural Balance. They each pooped about five times a day and the smell was enough to make me gag!  Personally, I think it was the amount of sweet potatoes used in the ingredients cause it wasn't as bad when they were on TOTW, but scooping is something I definitely don't miss!!



I never got the bad smell to go away myself. Still stinks just as bad as it did on any kind of food. But it sure is nice to always have that clean yard eh?


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I don't hate raw feeders.
> 
> I just hate how they make kibble feeders seem lazy/cheap/whatever


It's ok, in the "real world" I get shocked expressions and remarks that I'm turning my dogs into blood thirsty viscous animals by feeding them raw meat!


----------



## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Personally I think Sable123 has some good input. I don't agree with everything he says, but most of his thought process is logical. I can believe that a raw diet done right might lead to less cancer or other issues depending on the meat producer, but for the masses, kibble is the way of life. 

I don't find that he pushes one product or another any more than Orijen is pushed by most users on the board, or on dog food sites. I was feeding wellness core, and he recommended eagle pack, made by the same company. Whether my dog does well on it long term is to be determined, but I can say his stool quality has improved from core to eagle pack. 

Better ingredients on a label don't always equate to quality products that are actually in the food. Is there anyway to really know what goes on? Probably not, so I choose what I am comfortable with.

Everything in moderation.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

30 years ago, buying Purina or Dads with the 100% balanced nutrition on the label seemed sufficient. We did not hear about EPI, SIBO, as much cancer, as many allergies. Our dogs had iron stomachs that could handle chocolate chip cookies, chocolate donuts, onions in the left-overs, pork and steak bones, and never raw. 

I get the impression these days that if our dogs walked by a ham bone cooked on Christmas day, and then three days later in the bean soup, they would disintegrate on the spot. But our dogs managed such a bone with relish back in the days. 

Back in the days a can of dog food or a the semi-moist food, or the kibble smelled nasty, and you fed volumes of the stuff. But the dogs were indestructible. And we NEVER spent a week or more switching foods. What's up with that? Dad brought home Dads Trail Mix this week, and the next time he came home it was with some Purina Dog Chow or Alpo Come & Get It. When bag A was done, bag B replaced it, there was no weaning. 

And treats? Milk bone dog buscuits, or no-name dog buscuits and God knew how long they sat on the shelf in the drug store. To think these dogs made it to 14 and 15 with rarely a hiccup. 

Today we lift our noses at Purina and Iams and Dads. We scoff at those who feed Bil-Jac, Royal Canine, and Nutro. We are afraid to mention a food that contains the evil C, for fear of being lynched. And we pay 50+ dollars a bag for 30-35 pounds of dog food. Our dogs systems do not always manage the super-food, so we pick another, and another. We pump them full of kelp, supplement, vitamins, and the like. Treats are scrutinized almost as much as the food is, and we go with 100% meat, or cheese and meats sold for human consumption.

Old time dog people who have raised their dogs on Purina Pro Plan and continue to do so, are treated like lepers. Ew! you feed _that_??? Until we are shamed into trying the high priced, highly concentrated foods available today. And if the dog does not take to it like a fish to water, we figure it is the dog, not the food. 

I dunno. When I was stocking shelves for WalMart a bunch of years ago, I was stacking bleach, and marveled at all the choices. The blue bottle of clorox has spawned so many different flavors and types. Sometimes i think we have too many choices. We are drowning in choices. Year's ago, someone said her dogs seem to do best on mid-range dog food. I wonder why. Maybe grain free foods aren't the best for every dog out there.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Great post


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Draugr said:


> XD
> Or when it's known you're a hedge fund manager for a dog food company. Ulterior motive, much?


I have no idea what sable's motives are but I highly doubt he's managing the money of all the small time companies he's always pushing.

It takes A LOT of money to invest in a hedge fund. I'm talking millions at the very minimum for some (some more, some less), so unless every single "value pick" he pushes is giving him millions and millions of dollars at a time, I'm guessing that his motives aren't money related.


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

How do you know he's a hedge fund manager of a dog food company? Just curious, since he hasn't confirmed or denied...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

He hasn't confirmed or denied ANYTHING so far.....


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lakl said:


> How do you know he's a hedge fund manager of a dog food company? Just curious, since he hasn't confirmed or denied...


There's no such thing as a hedge fund manager for a dog food company. A dog food company may invest their money/pension plan/whatever with a hedge fund, but they're two seperate entities. Neither work for the other.

How drauger came up with that idea or assumption... I have no idea.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

That's been said by multiple members here multiple times in the past. I took sable123's repeated silence on the matter as an affirmative.

/shrug

Regardless, claiming one has accomplished x y and z over the internet is a rather foolish endeavor because even IF that could be verified, it's irrelevant concerning the quality of the advice given. Indicative of the quality you might expect, sure. I don't get the puffing out the chest and claiming you've done such and such a thing as though that alone legitimizes what you say.

/doubleshrug

I don't believe all dogs are going to do best on one diet or even a diet most in the dog world hold up as "quality." I don't even think all of sabl123's advice is bad. I take exception at the rather ruthless vitrol displayed toward any diet that isn't approved by them and the constant irrelevant harping on on RAW. There are better ways to make a point than to drag the competition through the mud. Or even viewing it as competition.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry, was posting from my phone at the time. Ran out of "edit" time.

Wanted to add, perhaps I should not have assumed what other members were saying was true. But at the time, I saw people who had been on this forum far longer than I have saying he was a hedge fund manager, I saw sable123 not offer so much as a "what are you talking about," just silence instead, which seemed to me to be an affirmative at the time. If that's not true, I apologize for making said claim. Perhaps I misunderstood and there is some sort of forum history I'm unaware of and that's a sort of joke, or something? I guess that is another explanation.

~

Also I don't balk at foods with corn in them but there is a difference from thinking a dog food that is inclusive of corn is fine to feed, and making claims that corn is one of the better biologically appropriate sources of nutrition for a dog, and that foods that are inclusive of them in any amount are superior to others. The advocacy for supposed "lower quality" kibbles does not bother me (note I'm using lower quality as in the terms of what most modern dog-savvy people qualify these kibbles as, not what I consider them to be), the lengths to which he goes to claim they are superior to everything else, does.

There may be food/kibbles that are "generally" better than others but not all dogs do great on just one diet. Dogs are the most genetically diverse species on the planet and it would be the height of foolishness to assume they all will do best on RAW or they will all do best on Pro Plan.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Draugr said:


> Sorry, was posting from my phone at the time. Ran out of "edit" time.
> 
> Wanted to add, perhaps I should not have assumed what other members were saying was true. But at the time, I saw people who had been on this forum far longer than I have saying he was a hedge fund manager, I saw sable123 not offer so much as a "what are you talking about," just silence instead, which seemed to me to be an affirmative at the time. If that's not true, I apologize for making said claim. Perhaps I misunderstood and there is some sort of forum history I'm unaware of and that's a sort of joke, or something? I guess that is another explanation.


According to himself directly, he is a fund manager. He never said he has any relation (business or personal) to any of the foods he pushes though. 

That's all i was trying to point out.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

sable123 comes out and peppers Draugr with a barage
of head and body shots. sable123 is on his toes. again
a straight shot to the head of Draugr. Draugr is against
the kennel wire. Draugr could be looking for the kennel door.
sable123 cuts off the kennel and delivers a hook off the jab.
the crowd is on their haunches you can't hear anything
except the bark. the food dish clanks and it's the end
page 9.



Draugr said:


> I like having Sable123 around on these boards too. Good comic relief. I love waiting to see what he's going to say next.





sable123 said:


> How about you are a fool.
> 
> When you whelp 20 litters have raised 3 NAVHDA VC's, numerous AKC Hunt Awards and 5 NAVHDA breeder awards you can come to talk to me. I have one GSD that I a friend left to me. 13 dogs total. A 75K kennel with 3 acres of fenced area with a pond.
> 
> ...


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I don't hate raw feeders.
> 
> I just hate how they make kibble feeders seem lazy/cheap/whatever


And here, after reading another thread on how much others spend on kibble I was happy with how cheap raw is


----------

