# Why the reluctance to publish pricing?



## ScousePete (Oct 29, 2013)

So I am in the beginning stages of searching for a breeder and viewing multiple websites. Some are great and full of information, others look like they were last updated a decade ago, but one common theme I am noticing is a lot of them have no pricing. One went as far as to print "As an ethical GSD breeder I do not publish prices on the internet" Is it ethics?

I know that price should not be the deciding factor, and for me it is not the deciding factor, but for me, and I'm sure a lot of people, it is certainly plays a part. Even a range would be helpful. If my budget is $1500, but your puppies start at $2500, but I have to call you to find that out, we've just wasted both our time.

I know it's not every breeder, and kudos to those that do publish their prices.

Thoughts?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

some breeders have multiple litters at one time. They probably have different prices according to the titles or whatever of the breeding match. I'd prefer to see prices as well, as you posted, it saves a call/e-mail to just find out their price point.
And I know of a couple breeders that feel out the prospective buyer, and what they are willing to pay or upwards, and price their pups high if they can get away with it.
I do see the working line breeders are pretty consistent in their prices. $1000 to 2000 is the norm, where showline breeders are all over the spectrum.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

To me, puppies are not a hard commodity to be sold to whoever wants to send money....I want to communicate with someone by email and phone before I am comfortable going to the stage of prices....If price is the most important factor, and that is all the person asks, we will probably not be a good fit...I have had calls where that is the first question, one lady was highly offended when I asked *her* a question and rudely said that she wasn't calling me to discuss her situation, all she wanted to know was the price of pup and if I had a <color> <sex> pup. When I tried to explain that I screened buyers, she hung up. To me putting a public price tag on the puppies is basically saying you don't care who buys them as long as they have $XXX to shell out. 

Lee


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> To me, puppies are not a hard commodity to be sold to whoever wants to send money....I want to communicate with someone by email and phone before I am comfortable going to the stage of prices....If price is the most important factor, and that is all the person asks, we will probably not be a good fit...I have had calls where that is the first question, one lady was highly offended when I asked *her* a question and rudely said that she wasn't calling me to discuss her situation, all she wanted to know was the price of pup and if I had a <color> <sex> pup. When I tried to explain that I screened buyers, she hung up. To me putting a public price tag on the puppies is basically saying you don't care who buys them as long as they have $XXX to shell out.


This!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think price is the most important factor either, but I also don't think it should be such a bad thing to ask price in the first conversation with a breeder. Breeders would do the same, if they were purchasing or choosing a stud for breeding, I would think?


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## ScousePete (Oct 29, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> To me, puppies are not a hard commodity to be sold to whoever wants to send money....I want to communicate with someone by email and phone before I am comfortable going to the stage of prices....If price is the most important factor, and that is all the person asks, we will probably not be a good fit...I have had calls where that is the first question, one lady was highly offended when I asked *her* a question and rudely said that she wasn't calling me to discuss her situation, all she wanted to know was the price of pup and if I had a <color> <sex> pup. When I tried to explain that I screened buyers, she hung up. To me putting a public price tag on the puppies is basically saying you don't care who buys them as long as they have $XXX to shell out.
> 
> Lee


Sigh. I expected this kind of response. As I said in my OP, price is not the most important factor, but you are misguided if you think money is no object for most people.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can see your point Scouspete, but I also can see Lee's.

My suggestion, if you see something your interested in, email the breeder, then your not really wasting alot of time trying to connect via phone..

I 'hate' asking prices,,with the puppies I've gotten, breeders I've gotten them from, I tend to have an c/p email I use,,tell about my myself, living conditions, what I'm looking for, any questions I may have..what I want and don't want...The LAST thing I ask, is price if I don't know it..

I usually write something like " I hate to discuss pricing, but could you give me an idea of what your asking for xxx?"...and thank you for your time"

Something like that..it's easy to write something up, copy/paste it to an email IF your contact a few breeders.

One more thing, sometimes people don't update their websites, so while it may be outdated, if its something your interested in, I would still contact them..


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't understand it either. Why not give the price for the litter? Just because someone contacts you as a breeder, knowing the price already, does not in any way obligate you to sell them a puppy. 

Not listing a basic price, or range is fishy. 




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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> some breeders have multiple litters at one time. They probably have different prices according to the titles or whatever of the breeding match. I'd prefer to see prices as well, as you posted, it saves a call/e-mail to just find out their price point.
> And I know of a couple breeders that feel out the prospective buyer, and what they are willing to pay or upwards, and price their pups high if they can get away with it.
> I do see the working line breeders are pretty consistent in their prices. $1000 to 2000 is the norm, where showline breeders are all over the spectrum.


This is good. Especially the point about breeders asking prospective buyers about their price range. I remember when I was looking, a few 'breeders' asking me, when I inquired the price range, what MY budget was. Why? Are you going to sell to me at a discount if say, I say $1500 and you're asking $2500?


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> This is good. Especially the point about breeders asking prospective buyers about their price range. I remember when I was looking, a few 'breeders' asking me, when I inquired the price range, what MY budget was. Why? Are you going to sell to me at a discount if say, I say $1500 and you're asking $2500?


I think that might be because a large number of inquiries come from folks who are used to paying BYB prices and think $500 is extravagant...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ScousePete said:


> Sigh. I expected this kind of response. As I said in my OP, price is not the most important factor, but you are misguided if you think money is no object for most people.


well - say you call me, we talk, I think you are a prospective good home....so your budget is lower than my price...but I might be able to steer you to someone who has pups that I think are good and in your price range...maybe someone who does not breed very often at all, but has a nice female and is expecting her first litter..and priced a bit lower as they don't have a production record. I often know of litters that are bred by people not online or without a website...like the one on Long Island right now bred by a friend who has not bred a litter for over 15 years...

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I truly don't understand Lee's thinking on this. Posting pricing on the site means that they don't screen buyers? That seems like quite a large jump to a conclusion.

Now, if there is a "buy it now" button next to the price, then I'd certainly agree. But a breeder listing a general price range, or specific price on a particular litter certainly does NOT automatically mean that they don't screen buyers.

I screen very carefully. It starts with a phone call, followed up with an 8 page questionnaire, then more phone calls (or meeting in person if possible), and reference checks. But I also work a full time job, have a lot of critters to take care of, like to eat and sleep at times and don't want to waste time on someone who is thinking they'll get a pup for newspaper prices. So I put the prices on my website. So do a lot of other excellent breeders who screen carefully. I don't think any conclusion at all can be drawn from a breeder just having prices listed.

Personally, I understand more where the OP is coming from than the price listed means breeder doesn't screen opinion. I can imagine it's frustrating for buyers to not know if a breeder is in their price range or not, or to have to waste their own time calling and finding out when they could eliminate some from contention more easily by looking at the website. I also think as someone mentioned that it gives breeders an opportunity to be UNethical, by getting an idea of the depth of the buyer's pocket book before quoting a price. And it puts the buyer in an uncomfortable position of having to ask. Just seems easier on everyone all around to list the prices.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Each dog I've bought either had the price listed or I was able to get it immediately the first time I asked the breeder. I don't breed myself, I've just sold one puppy with the price listed and got a few people who tried to barter or acted like buying a dog is like buying a house, you never actually pay for the list price (um, no) but I think breeders get weird people all the time, whether the price is published or not.

If I like a litter, not having the price is not going to be a deal breaker for me but I agree with Chris and I just think it's easier to know up front. If I think a price is outrageous then I will move on but not try to barter with a breeder.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I just chalk it up to one of those "customs vary" things and don't read a lot into it either way. From what little I can see, it's pretty common for GSD breeders to post prices publicly, but a whole lot of Terv breeders don't. Just a different custom in that breed. I also see more prices posted among working Mal breeders than I do AKC Mal breeders. Again, just seems to be a different custom in that subgroup.

I agree that it does make life more convenient when the price (or at least the general price range, if it varies by litter) is posted, but I don't worry that much about it either way. I'm much more concerned with whether I like the breeder's program, want to have an ongoing relationship with the breeder as a person, and think that I'll be able to find what I want in their dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ScousePete said:


> Sigh. I expected this kind of response. As I said in my OP, price is not the most important factor, but you are misguided if you think money is no object for most people.


I don't think he meant it as for you...but breeders that care about their dogs truly do screen their buyers.

You kind of have to understand that for a really good breeder...supply of puppies is much smaller than supply of customers. So someone that calls and just wants to get to price, is already behind the person that talks for 5 minutes and then asks for price. I also know breeders that will discount a puppy if they think its the perfect home for that dog. Maybe co-ownership comes up because they're discussing showing/trialing.

Trust me, I looked based on price as well when I purchased my dog. But now I know that its not as big of a deal if a price isn't listed online. If I'm interested, I call, I waste 10 minutes learning about the breeder, their ethics, their goals, their dogs (if you think we love talking about our dogs...breeders put us to shame), and then we get to price. If its more than what I want to spend...then I move on to the next one.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

When buying a pup I generally do not shop around the internet checking prices on forum breeders, we check pedigrees/performance and go for it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I also know breeders that will discount a puppy if they think its the perfect home for that dog. Maybe co-ownership comes up because they're discussing showing/trialing.


That's true too (and on the flipside, I know of at least one breeder -- not in GSDs and not on this forum -- who will quote a ridiculous fake price to make buyers go away if she really doesn't like how they come across during interviews).

It's not something that I would do, myself, but I'm not a breeder. When you're dealing with little lives that you produced, and all the emotions that can swirl around the decision to buy or sell a dog, I can certainly understand why people might choose to do things differently.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

breeders breed to make money; plain and simple. or why else wont they sell repeat liters for 200-300 dollars after they've recouped costs from titling their dam and sire and medical expenses?? i mean after you interview and ask a million questions and tell someone the cost is 1500 and they agree, why dont just sell them the dog for 200 since "its all about the dogs"????? its about profit so just list the price instead of pretending its all about the dog. 

when i was looking for a pup, if a breeder didnt have a price listed i just moved on. you could get a great dog at a lot of places that have great pedigrees; from sites that are more user friendly and has everything for you to see (pedigree, ofa number, videos of their dogs working) without all the fakeness.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> when i was looking for a pup, if a breeder didnt have a price listed i just moved on.


I did too. I called two breeders. One had dogs starting at $1500.00. She did not want to talk to me. She was very gruff and kept saying just fill out the form on her website. Yeah, no thank you. 

The second breeder had puppies starting at $2500.00. She was very nice. Talked to me about her puppies and my dog I had just lost due to medical issues. She was very knowledgeable and was not trying to rush me off the phone. We ended up getting a puppy from the second breeder. They also train and title their dogs. Every time I have a question or concern She always gets back to me. I would not hesitate to buy from them again. I never have felt I was cut off as soon as money was exchanged. Honestly I don't have a lot of questions, but I never feel like I can't call or email.

Price isn't everything from the buyers point of view either, but it's good to have a starting point. Then to be able to call and ask questions and to visit and see the puppies, parents and facility.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> breeders breed to make money; plain and simple. or why else wont they sell repeat liters for 200-300 dollars after they've recouped costs from titling their dam and sire and medical expenses?? i mean after you interview and ask a million questions and tell someone the cost is 1500 and they agree, why dont just sell them the dog for 200 since "its all about the dogs"????? its about profit so just list the price instead of pretending its all about the dog.


I disagree. I haven't bred a litter of my own yet, and any money I might one day take in for puppies placed wouldn't even BEGIN to offset the costs I've already put in to my dogs. Purchase itself, raising, training, vet costs, flea/tick/hw prevention, entries, travel and lodging, lectures, seminars, health testing... and that's all well before the actual costs of breeding (stud fees, x-rays, possible whelp complications, laundry, food, early development materials and more). There are plenty of 'actual costs of breeding' lists I'm sure others can link you to.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

while i've never bred a dog and dont really know the costs of breeding a liter, i cannot imagine you need to keep charging 1000+ liter after liter. once the dog has achieved titles and have had its hips/elbow xrayed, your not spending the same amount on every subsequent liter yet breeders continue to charge the same price. i dont care if a breeder charges 5 grand for a pup, i just have respect for the ones who are upfront and honest about their intentions. 

and in the case of trying to recoup cost of the dog + flea/tick + food IS trying to turn a profit. you're trying to cover costs that every single dog owner has to cover but justifying it by putting those dollars on the pups. so its not all about the pups, its about making profits to pay for every day costs that shouldnt be put on a perspective buyer. i also feel thats immoral.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

boomer11...if I'm understanding you correctly, you've come to the wrong conclusion.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This has been beat to death a few times....why shouldn't breeders make money for their efforts??? And the costs go far far far beyond the direct costs on that one female you see a litter from....

If I did not have dogs, I would not have had a Silverado (retired with 250K miles on it) or a Suburban (presently with 150K miles on it) I always had a small car for work and errands - that 400K miles was pretty much dog related....in vehicles that get less than 15 MPG....there are breedings that do not produce puppies, females who after investing 7 or 8K in, you find have an issue and are spayed and placed free in a pet home...I believe I would have netted more profit if I never had a dog and put all that money in investments...

Lee


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I have never understood people thinking a breeder shouldn't make a profit.....they are providing a service....why should they only break even? I think it's "immoral" to expect someone to provide you a service for free...because if all they are doing is breaking even...guess what?? All their time and energy was *free* to you! Most breeders I know don't make much of a profit, if at all...some struggle just to break even. I'm going to pay a breeder for a puppy who's parents were worked, titled, and health tested....I HOPE they make a profit...it's kind of "criminal" and sad, in my mind, if they don't....you don't take your car to be repaired and say "I'm only paying for parts...you charging me for your labor is 'immoral' " I also don't see anything wrong with them adding flea/tick medicine to their "out of pocket" cost in breeding...they probably wouldn't have 3+ dogs if they were just going to have a "pet only" home....they have those extra dogs to breed for clients, and these *breeding* dogs (business equipment...if you will, as cold as that sounds) need to be properly cared for....Jeez oh peet, lol. That being said, we all have our own opinions on what is "reputable/responsible" breeding...and the crazy *immoral*, *criminal*, thing...is the ones doing it "right" aren't the ones making a profit...it's the ones throwing Neighbor Joe and Neighbor Sally's pretty pooch-doodle-duck together and selling the puppies on craigslist, that are actually making away like bandits...C'est la vie, I guess....

That being said, I hate when a breeder doesn't have a price listed, mostly because I feel bad asking for some reason lol....I like the price to just be out of the way (knowledge wise) and just get down to talking about the dogs, their temperaments, drives, breeder's goal, experience, etc.... I don't know why a breeder would say a ridiculous price to get someone off the phone...why not just say, "sorry, don't think this is going to work." Then you won't have some yahoo going on some public forum talking about a crazy price point they were given....Just be upfront.....I don't understand people lol


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

like i said, i dont care if a breeder charges 5 grand for a pup. im sure the breeders who do it right are extremely passionate about their dogs and im sure it takes a lot of time and effort and hard work to breed. what irks me are the ones that do not list price, make you call them, grill you with a bunch of questions and tell you its all about the dogs and they just want to produce good dogs and they dont make anything and all kinds of things to justify that a 2 grand price tag has nothing to do with profits. those are the ones i would never buy from. charge me 3 grand but tell me that while your passionate about dogs it is a business and you want to make a profit and i'll buy from you, not to mention have respect for you.


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Breeding from what I have seen if done properly is a labor of love.... Especially in this breed with the costs of titling and training and so on that some other breeds may not have. Hips/elbows/DM etc.... There are so many costs that people don't see when buying a pup from a breeder. Breeders that I know seem to lose money more often than make it but they keep doing it because they love that breed of dogs and want to share the breed with others. 

I do feel breeders should post prices. Breeders can sell to whom ever they feel is a good fit for their puppy/dog. 

I personally let the stud and female make my mind up for me....price never factors in to my decisions unless we are talking 5k+ and then you might catching me singing a different tune depending on that individual dog....


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Profit is not a dirty word. Its necessary to insure future business. I am not a breeder, but every customer who walks in the door at my business thinks that it should be a "Labor of Love" for me to sell them my product. If this were true, I would be out of business in a very short period of time. I am not saying that dogs are purely a product, but there is a lot that goes into doing it right.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also don't think profit is a dirty word.

I am not a breeder, but I know ALOT goes into having a litter of puppies, it's alot of work for that person, time and effort is worth 'something' altho it can be labor of love

It really doesn't bother me if a breeder doesn't list their price, if I'm interested I'll contact them and go from there..


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am perfectly fine with reputable breeders asking for $2,000+ for their puppies, I understand that it costs a lot of money to show/title/health test/care for their dogs. I don't care at all that they make money off breeding either, breeding is a lot of work and they deserve to get paid for the time and effort they put in to each litter. I do wish that they would put their puppy price on their website though, I don't care about wasting my time but I don't want to waste a breeder's time if they are out of my price range.

I personally will not/can not pay over $1,500 for a puppy, I just can't do it. I live alone, I don't make a lot of money and I have other mouths to feed. It's not just $1,500 that you spend, within a year of that puppy's life you spend closer to $2,500-$3,000 after trips to the Vet for shots, medication for heartworm/fleas, toys and food. 

(Non GSD) I've had my puppy for almost 8 weeks now and I have spent at least $2,000 on him so far and he is only 18 weeks old, that's a lot of money for someone like me, I am not hurting for money but it does make a dent in the checkbook.


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Robk Everyone wishes they could get something for nothing lol. I'm not saying that breeders make no money but most if they are realistic don't make a ton and that is why they work a job as well. If it was me and I was breeding pups and could get to the point where the puppies I placed would cover the expenses the dogs/pups created I would be perfectly happy with that. That's just me though.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

I would have been third generation shepherd breeder. I decided very early on (like, as a child), that it was way too hard, heartbreaking, and expensive...it is definitely, if done right, a labor of love. And separate from the money issue, most people really have NO clue what a responsibility those little lives, and finding them safe and caring homes, are. 

Before there were web sites, you simply had to call or write and ask. if now, to some, it seems inconvenient, perhaps we've become too dependent upon technology?

And what I really, REALLY, dislike are large, commercial operations who make their ENTIRE living off the dogs, because it can be a HUGE conflict of interest when you're trying to determine if a prospective buyer would be a good home, when the money coming from that buyer is paying for your home.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> breeders breed to make money; plain and simple. or why else wont they sell repeat liters for 200-300 dollars after they've recouped costs from titling their dam and sire and medical expenses?? i mean after you interview and ask a million questions and tell someone the cost is 1500 and they agree, why dont just sell them the dog for 200 since "its all about the dogs"????? its about profit so just list the price instead of pretending its all about the dog.
> 
> when i was looking for a pup, if a breeder didnt have a price listed i just moved on. you could get a great dog at a lot of places that have great pedigrees; from sites that are more user friendly and has everything for you to see (pedigree, ofa number, videos of their dogs working) without all the fakeness.


The breeder I'm going to is a friend and I've spoken to them on this subject plenty of times. Their guess is they've pumped at least $20,000 in to their first female, and at least that into their second. Their first one has had two litters and is being retired. She's 8. Each litter was 6 puppies. Do the math...didn't make up for the costs.

The second one's first litter only had 3 puppies make it. This one was started younger and will probably end up having 4 or 5 litters at this point. She might be able to make them more than what they've put into her, and they're not counting the "regular costs" that all pet owners have anyways.

It's up to you to just "move on." If you really want a certain line, or a certain dog. You'll call and ask. If you don't care and are just looking for a pet, you can just move on. Like I said, the good breeders aren't hurting for customers. They have waiting lists of 10+ people and will have no problem selling any of their pups just because some random person on the internet feels the need to skip them. And luckily for those people, there's so many GSD breeders out there that you can easily find one that fits your needs...website info and all.


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## My5dogs (Aug 30, 2013)

I read an article on a well known boxer breeder. She broke it down as to how much she actually made in a normal litter size of 8. After all the supplements vaccines etc etc she literally ended up with nothing. So I don't believe they are all in it for the money. Will post the article if I can find it.


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## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

I am now building my website for my breeding program. This is very interesting because I have debated whether or not to put pricing on the site or have people just email or call to find that out. I have a hard time because I have been in the shoes of buyers where I was like sheesh, I don't want to look at all these beautiful dogs if I can't afford their pups, I wish I knew now what the price is. 

But I can see it from a breeder perspective now too. I want to know that people are willing to investigate me more based on my quality of dogs, not just that I am cheaper than so and so breeder. My breeding goals are clear and I have goals in mind for my girl's pups so I want to know that people looking are thinking hard about what they are buying, not just that my pups fall into their price range.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

BriskaBoo13 said:


> I am now building my website for my breeding program. This is very interesting because I have debated whether or not to put pricing on the site or have people just email or call to find that out. I have a hard time because I have been in the shoes of buyers where I was like sheesh, I don't want to look at all these beautiful dogs if I can't afford their pups, I wish I knew now what the price is.
> 
> But I can see it from a breeder perspective now too. I want to know that people are willing to investigate me more based on my quality of dogs, not just that I am cheaper than so and so breeder. My breeding goals are clear and I have goals in mind for my girl's pups so I want to know that people looking are thinking hard about what they are buying, not just that my pups fall into their price range.


You are going to be breeding? Do you health test, show or title?

I only ask because you have asked some questions that seem very inexperienced for a dog owner let alone a breeder. Like you asking about whether your 7 month old female playing and jumping will effect her hips and elbows.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

katieliz said:


> I would have been third generation shepherd breeder.  I decided very early on (like, as a child), that it was way too hard, heartbreaking, and expensive...it is definitely, if done right, a labor of love. And separate from the money issue, most people really have NO clue what a responsibility those little lives, and finding them safe and caring homes, are.
> 
> Before there were web sites, you simply had to call or write and ask. if now, to some, it seems inconvenient, perhaps we've become too dependent upon technology?
> 
> And what I really, REALLY, dislike are large, commercial operations who make their ENTIRE living off the dogs, because it can be a HUGE conflict of interest when you're trying to determine if a prospective buyer would be a good home, when the money coming from that buyer is paying for your home.


I think the uncomfortableness occurs because, while money is _an_ issue for most people, no one wants it to be _the_ issue. When you're looking for a puppy, it makes sense to narrow down the options as much as possible before beginning a lengthy two-way interview process. The more information you have to begin with- lines, health, breeding goals, price points, etc, the less likely you are to have to call just to see if the breeder is one you're interested in. Of course a lot of sites put information about the health, breeding goals and other important factors. Then you're just missing the price, so you have to write just to ask about that, and that makes you look like you don't care about the dogs. Plus it's really heartbreaking to fall in love with a breeder just to find out you can't afford them.

Wedding photography is really similar, both in the photographers' resistance to posting prices and the clients' desire to just know upfront.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you've done what I would consider enough research, you should kind of know what to expect to pay depending on what you see on the website.

Titled, SchH3, working line parents, OFA, show rating = $1200 - $2000. Anything more, you're getting ripped off.

Titled, SchH3, show line parents, OFA, show rating = $2000 + depending on the rating, the shows the dog has been in, ect.

No titles, registered, no OFA = $500 - $1000 depending on the market around the breeder.

No registration = $500 or less.

Those are the prices I expect. If I call the breeder, talk to them for 5 minutes, and ask them how much they charge...and it doesn't fit into that price range. I know there is probably something better out there for the money.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

While probably most breeders don't do it for this reason I think there is some benefit to them to not putting the prices up. There are chances that once you make the call and learn more about the breeder/puppies you are starting to already have a sense of commitment and are more likely to buy. I know it at least happened to me. I was looking for a lower price range of around $1500 though shipping was about $500. I found a closer breeder, but their prices weren't listed while the first one was. While I mostly stopped looking at the first breeder because of some "red flags" I ended up going with a breeder where the pups were $2500 as I had watched them for some time. Had I known off the bat that they were that high I might not have become so interested in them and decided the $$ amt difference was fine.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Bequavious said:


> I think the uncomfortableness occurs because, while money is _an_ issue for most people, no one wants it to be _the_ issue. When you're looking for a puppy, it makes sense to narrow down the options as much as possible before beginning a lengthy two-way interview process. The more information you have to begin with- lines, health, breeding goals, price points, etc, the less likely you are to have to call just to see if the breeder is one you're interested in. Of course a lot of sites put information about the health, breeding goals and other important factors. Then you're just missing the price, so you have to write just to ask about that, and that makes you look like you don't care about the dogs. Plus it's really heartbreaking to fall in love with a breeder just to find out you can't afford them.
> 
> Wedding photography is really similar, both in the photographers' resistance to posting prices and the clients' desire to just know upfront.
> 
> ...


But you know the funny thing...most people can't actually tell what the lines are anyways. So...I can call my boy anything and everything, and its not like a regular pet buyer will be able to look at the pedigree and tell me he's not DDR, Czech, or whatever it is I choose to call him. So if you think about it, the majority of the information on a website is pointless. Sure...OFA, registration numbers, ect so that you can do some of your own research. But most people just see "dogs have been health tested" and that's good enough for them.

I had a friend that was buying a somethingpoo. She claimed to find a great breeder, health tested, blah blah blah. I told her, ask your breeder for an OFA number so that you can make sure and check she's not lying. She asked...breeder stopped talking to her. I told my friend other things to "prove" some of the things that breeders claim on their website. She realized quickly that you can't trust the majority of things you see on the web anyways...sadly, especially when it comes to dog breeding.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If you've done what I would consider enough research, you should kind of know what to expect to pay depending on what you see on the website.
> 
> Titled, SchH3, working line parents, OFA, show rating = $1200 - $2000. Anything more, you're getting ripped off.
> 
> ...



In your first post, you say anything more than $2000 and 'you're getting ripped off'. Maybe. Maybe not. But, you have to ask to find out. Asking is what makes most people uncomfortable. 

People who have done their research at least to some degree, will have a general pool of breeders to look at. Maybe you have three breeders that, after looking at combinations, discussing with people, maybe even having seen the dogs.... any of the breedings you're looking at would be acceptable for what you want. And say, two are in the $1500 range, and one is over $2000. If a pup from any of the breedings would most likely be fine for you, and you like all three breeders, 'asking' and then declining further because of the $ makes you seem like a putz. No one wants to be 'that guy'.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If all you're looking for is a pet...no plans of WUSV championships, just the idea of "I might dabble in IPO but its going to be a companion first," and you want a WL...you can definitely find a dog that will fit your needs lower than $2000. At the end of the day...the pedigree shouldn't matter that much to you. The amount of hunt drive from this dog, and the amount of prey drive from that dog, 5 generations back in the pedigree doesn't matter to the average American pet owner. Hopefully you can trust the breeder enough to produce, nice, stable animals with great temperaments, but its not like that type of owner is going to be able to see the small differences that we like to discuss on this forum or on the training field.

I'm that type of owner...I don't care that much about line breeding on this dog or that dog, because at the end of the day, any information I get about those dogs is going to be hearsay. It will be from someone else, who is biased, and imparting their own opinion on that dog. And you know that the breeder probably thinks that those line bred dogs are excellent...otherwise they wouldn't be doing the breeding, right?

I'll be getting an excellent dog in a few months for $1200...it will be able to do everything I ask of it and more. IMO, if I were to pay someone else $2000 for a dog that might be "slightly" more capable, its not worth it and I'd be getting ripped off. If my goal is only to get a UDX and some agility titles, and I can do that with a $1200 dog, isn't anything more (even if it's better) getting ripped off?

I guess asking never makes me uncomfortable...maybe my explanation shows why price is important to me. Whenever people ask about dogs on here, and its coming from a BYB, I still look at how that price fits into the market. If you're only paying $500 for a dog, where the breeder hasn't done anything to prove that dog, then its not like you're getting "ripped off." You're getting a lower quality product for a lower price. I'm not for supporting BYB...but as long as that BYB isn't charging the price of a well-bred dog, that person should feel alright about their purchase (money wise). When someone says, this person charges $1000, I can tell hem that for $200 or so more they can get a much higher quality of product.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I absolutely disagree about pedigree not mattering. I also see your point about competing at high levels vs not competing at all, but I want a GSD that acts like a GSD should, IMHO. That is largely determined by only one thing, and that is genetics. If someone has old lines that I like, that are not as accessible anymore, $500-700 is not a deal breaker to me. IMHO those lines may well be worth $2000, especially if the care is put into the combinations or they are using sperm from a deceased stud. 

But the point is, it isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me to have to inquire, either, just that the OP asked why the reluctance to publish. I would prefer to see a range of pricing or a flat fee listed. My opinion.


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## ScousePete (Oct 29, 2013)

katieliz said:


> Before there were web sites, you simply had to call or write and ask. if now, to some, it seems inconvenient, perhaps we've become too dependent upon technology?


You are absolutely right, we have become reliant on technology. Everyone who posts (or even views) on this website has access to a computer. I'd bet that each one of us has a cellphone, some smarter than others (the phones, not the people!) 

It doesn't have to be a bad thing, we don't have to fear technology. But that is not the point - the breeders who have websites have embraced technology to a certain degree because if they hadn't their websites wouldn't exist. What some of them have chosen not to do is list their prices - that has nothing to do with technology.

There is a certain elitist element to it. _*If you need to ask the price, then this puppy's not for you.*_ Good luck to those breeders and it's great if they do have 10+ people waiting just to get on the waiting list. I won't be one of them though.

All credit to those breeders who do ask background questions. I want to work with someone who cares about where their puppies will live and grow up and to ensure the new owner has the space and time to care for a new dog. But caring about the well being of their pups is non synonymous with not displaying the prices. It's as ridiculous as saying those breeders who *do *display their prices don't care about their puppies.

I also think that by displaying a basic price range it would deter a lot of the time wasters who think a puppy costs $100. At the end of the day it's the breeder's choice, it's their business. This thread got slightly derailed debating whether breeders should make a profit from their pups - of course they should! That wasn't the point of this thread.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I must have gotten off a completely different boat at some point. When I see no prices being offered on a site, I make the assumption that the breeder is inviting the prospect puppy buyer to contact them. "Like what you see? Give me a call, I wanna talk to you." 

I am just as careful screening a breeder as a breeder would be to screen me. I want someone who will stand behind their pup. Someone who is willing to have a lasting relationship with me. They don't have to like me personally, or invite me for tea, but if I have a specific question they should me my first point of reference regarding my pup. I should trust their opinions. 

So I call them up and listen. I'm willing to pay more for that relationship. I want a breeder who feels strongly in their breeding program and wants my puppy to succeed as much as I do.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I must have gotten off a completely different boat at some point. When I see no prices being offered on a site, I make the assumption that the breeder is inviting the prospect puppy buyer to contact them. "Like what you see? Give me a call, I wanna talk to you."
> 
> I am just as careful screening a breeder as a breeder would be to screen me. I want someone who will stand behind their pup. Someone who is willing to have a lasting relationship with me. They don't have to like me personally, or invite me for tea, but if I have a specific question they should me my first point of reference regarding my pup. I should trust their opinions.
> 
> So I call them up and listen. I'm willing to pay more for that relationship. I want a breeder who feels strongly in their breeding program and wants my puppy to succeed as much as I do.



This, 100%. For me, frankly it's a turn-off to see prices. It's very impersonal. I know at the end of the day, dogs are property, but when I'm putting so much time, thought, and consideration into a dog, I don't want it to feel like online shopping. I don't want it to be about "oh, that's too much, I'll keep looking." I want it to be about the individual dogs, and the breeder, and that relationship.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm only interested in free dogs so no pricing attracts me


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LoveEcho said:


> I want it to be about the individual dogs, and the breeder, and that relationship.


Exactly. I'm not just buying a dog, I want to buy the entire package.


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## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> You are going to be breeding? Do you health test, show or title?
> 
> I only ask because you have asked some questions that seem very inexperienced for a dog owner let alone a breeder. Like you asking about whether your 7 month old female playing and jumping will effect her hips and elbows.


I only asked that because I had conflicting answers from other owners and wanted a larger pool of people to ask. Some said yes it will, others said no it won't. Curious what more than a handful of people thought. 

Yes, I am breeding her IF she grows the way I think she will and YES I am doing conformation with her and YES she is being trained as a SAR dog so I am using her as a working dog and YES I health test before I breed. I'm not a novice, just curious what others thoughts were on that one thing. Other than that one (stupid apparently?) question the only other thing I have posted was about a bad dealing with a breeder. BTW I am a certified dog trainer too. I'm not inexperienced with dogs. Just had conflicting answers and wanted more peoples opinions. Thanks for the concern though. I know a lot of people say hey look I have a dog I forgot to spay, I guess I'll breed her. I'm not that person though


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> charge me 3 grand but tell me that while your passionate about dogs it is a business and you want to make a profit and i'll buy from you, not to mention have respect for you.





katieliz said:


> And what I really, REALLY, dislike are large, commercial operations who make their ENTIRE living off the dogs, because it can be a HUGE conflict of interest when you're trying to determine if a prospective buyer would be a good home, when the money coming from that buyer is paying for your home.


Katieliz hit the nail on the head.

When breeding dogs becomes a business that you make a living from, it creates all kinds of ethical concerns. I don't think I'd be comfortable buying from a breeder that uses puppy sales as their sole means of support. Most reputable breeders, even those selling pups for $2000 each, don't make a profit on their litters because of the time, energy and expense that goes into breeding dogs the right way. Even if they do make a profit on one litter, they might lose money on the next one, so in order to make a predictable profit, you have to either cut corners or make it a huge puppy-mill type operation. I wish that responsible breeders *could* make a living breeding dogs, but the puppy prices would have to be astronomical, and no one could afford them.

When living, sentient beings become a business, it's always fraught. I groom dogs for a living. Every day I have to make decisions. I can do what is best for the dog, or I can do what the owner is willing to pay for. Most of the time, I can do both, but there comes a time when I simply cannot give the animal 3 hours of my time when the owner will only pay for 1 hour. Sometimes I do it anyway, but that's not a good business model. I'm in this business because I love dogs, but if I don't make enough money, I will go broke and lose my business, and then I won't be able to do anything for the dogs. There needs to be a balance. I have yet to see a breeder who can achieve this balance using breeding as their sole means of income.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think a big difference is that many newbies think: "I want a GSD. This is how much I'm willing to pay", and that is what drives and determines their search. 

More experience people think: "I want a GSD from these lines, from a breeder that works, titles, health screens, and has a track record for being ethical, reputable, and consistently producing what I want in a dog. Such a dog from such a breeder falls in this price range. I will start saving up for such a time that I have the money to get what I want", and that is what drives their search for a GSD. 

So whether prices are on a website or not and how people react to having the price on the website or not has more to do with the buyer's frame of mind getting into the buying process than about the breeder and their ethics. 

Personally, I like to see a price range, it doesn't hurt anything. Some breeders don't like to make the price public, because they feel it is nobody's business what a buyer paid for their dog, and so it should not be advertised - 

I think people who do their research, like coming here and asking questions or talking to people in the breed, get a good idea of what is an average price range on a dog, so they'll have a better idea what to expect once they get searching on line.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> This, 100%. For me, frankly it's a turn-off to see prices. It's very impersonal. I know at the end of the day, dogs are property, but when I'm putting so much time, thought, and consideration into a dog, I don't want it to feel like online shopping. I don't want it to be about "oh, that's too much, I'll keep looking." I want it to be about the individual dogs, and the breeder, and that relationship.


This is an interesting perspective because it sounds like your reasons for not wanting to know the price upfront are really similar to my reasons _for_ wanting to know. I really care about the individual dogs and the breeder relationship too, such that I could easily see myself blowing a mortgage payment or two on a dog/breeder that I fell in love with. Maybe I'll feel differently when I'm more established and have a higher budget, but right now I like to know what's out of my reach before I meet the breeder and get too attached 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lilie said:


> I must have gotten off a completely different boat at some point. When I see no prices being offered on a site, I make the assumption that the breeder is inviting the prospect puppy buyer to contact them. "Like what you see? Give me a call, I wanna talk to you."
> 
> I am just as careful screening a breeder as a breeder would be to screen me. I want someone who will stand behind their pup. Someone who is willing to have a lasting relationship with me. They don't have to like me personally, or invite me for tea, but if I have a specific question they should me my first point of reference regarding my pup. I should trust their opinions.
> 
> So I call them up and listen. I'm willing to pay more for that relationship. I want a breeder who feels strongly in their breeding program and wants my puppy to succeed as much as I do.



Exactly - I agree! Except that you may not pay "more" just because pricing is not listed!

Basically, I think pricing should take into account the credentials of the breeding dogs and the breeder and not all litters are priced the same - esp with a small breeder who does not have 5 active breeding females and a stud dog/s. 

As far as "profit" - sure on some litters you can make a profit ON THAT LITTER...but looking at the big picture - LOL I am afraid to do that! I won't go into a breeding again where my initial out of pocket is $3/4000 for travel and related work loss, stud fee up front etc....and then there is the chance of losing a breeding female with a male used alot POSSIBLY (vet's opinion) passing some sort of STD....happened to me....

The other thing is - not everyone wants the whole world to know what THEY are paying for a puppy!!!! Often they want to share via the breeders website their future pup...but don't want mom/dad/spouse-SO to KNOW what they are paying for a puppy!! I usually offer pricing in the initial phone call or email - it is not a secret....but don't see the need to have it public.

Lee


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I must have gotten off a completely different boat at some point. When I see no prices being offered on a site, I make the assumption that the breeder is inviting the prospect puppy buyer to contact them. "Like what you see? Give me a call, I wanna talk to you."
> 
> I am just as careful screening a breeder as a breeder would be to screen me. I want someone who will stand behind their pup. Someone who is willing to have a lasting relationship with me. They don't have to like me personally, or invite me for tea, but if I have a specific question they should me my first point of reference regarding my pup. I should trust their opinions.
> 
> So I call them up and listen. I'm willing to pay more for that relationship. I want a breeder who feels strongly in their breeding program and wants my puppy to succeed as much as I do.


I'm with you.

Though I did look for prices on the sites. I wanted to see them. Not because I was totally willing to pay $1500 but not a dollar over $2000, but because if I saw $300 puppies I might be wondering about that breeder (if nothing else tripped my BYB alarm).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> I absolutely disagree about pedigree not mattering. I also see your point about competing at high levels vs not competing at all, but I want a GSD that acts like a GSD should, IMHO. That is largely determined by only one thing, and that is genetics. If someone has old lines that I like, that are not as accessible anymore, $500-700 is not a deal breaker to me. IMHO those lines may well be worth $2000, especially if the care is put into the combinations or they are using sperm from a deceased stud.
> 
> But the point is, it isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me to have to inquire, either, just that the OP asked why the reluctance to publish. I would prefer to see a range of pricing or a flat fee listed. My opinion.


I think I explained the pedigree thing wrong. My point was, the vast majority can't read a pedigree, don't have any idea who the 16 dogs are in the pedigree, and therefore it doesn't matter at all what that pedigree says. Sure...they can come on a forum like this one and ask, but so few actually do that and on top of that...even those that comment on this forum generally don't know that much about the pedigree. It's usually, "I've heard of this dog or that dog but can't really tell you much more."


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> If my goal is only to get a UDX and some agility titles, and I can do that with a $1200 dog, isn't anything more (even if it's better) getting ripped off?


"only"?!



(I agree with your larger point, of course. But that ain't no "only" in my universe!)


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