# pups killed my daughters lamb



## kerryandruby (Jul 1, 2013)

so both my pups killed my girls lamb this morning, clean kill to the neck. they also wont stop harassing the neighbors stock and try to chase our cat which im sure given the chance will kill that too, so its a sad day for me but im re homing them both back to the breaders, there 5 months old now and we have been teaching them since day one to leave the animals alone and the one time i thought they would be ok they wernt and now they have had the taste i cant trust they wont do it again.

absolutely gutted i am but feed up aswell.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sounds like someone needs an E Collar and a Run, I wouldnt rehome but to each their own.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am sorry for your daughters lamb and your daughters feelings, why were the puppies not being watched and were able to get to the lamb?
Why would they be harassing the neighbors stock? Are they not contained? Do they run loose? I am surprised the neighbors have not shot them for chasing livestock.

Quit blaming the puppies, try building a fence or kennel and do some training.

Wait, on second thought, maybe sending the puppies back to the BREEDERS will at least keep them alive.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I think 5 months old is WAY to young to assume that a puppy (or two) would make a good decision on their own. I wouldn't trust mine (she is also 5 months old) for a second - and that is just one puppy, not two! They also shouldn't be left out and given a chance to harass the neighbors livestock. Again, they are way too young to know any better.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1 >>>> they were loose. not enough training.

2 >>>> they're harassing the neighbors stock and your cat.
why did you think they can be loose?

3 >>>> to young to be trusted. again a training issue.

4 >>>> many dogs live on farms and they're fed farm
animals and they don't attack the farm animals.

when i was a kid i would visit relatives that had farms.
they're dogs were protective and loose at night. they
didn't bother the chickens, rabbits, goats, cows, horses,
pigs, cats, etc. 



kerryandruby said:


> 1 >>>> both my pups killed my girls lamb this morning, clean kill to the neck.
> 
> 2 >>>> they also wont stop harassing the neighbors stock and try to chase our cat which im sure given the chance will kill that too,
> 
> ...


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## KMH (Jul 24, 2013)

Quite frankly, I think rehoming your pups back to the breeders is the best thing right now. I'm sure if your daughter was attached to the lamb she's not feeling very kindly toward the pups and probably won't ever. The hard part is that they now know how much fun it is to chase and kill. Not saying they can't be broken of this, but without serious controls set in place you won't need to. I don't know where you live but where I live I'm well within my legal rights to shoot any animal that comes on my property and harasses or kills my livestock. We call it triple S: Shoot, Shovel and Shutup. 
I think if you care for your pups rehoming them is the kindest thing you can do for them. Not being mean at all - it's just that you're not set up to deal with these guys.
Good luck,
Kristi


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

A good german Shepherd pup should be prey driven. If you don't have the time to properly manage one then it's probably best to rehome. But don't blame the pups for doing what comes natural to them. It's your fault! At 5 months you can't even get them to sit still much less stop chasing game. It is weird when you see your cute pup kill another animal though. When my pup killed a rabbit and was eating it's intestines, I wouldn't let him lick me for days! 

If you're fed up because 5 month pups don't understand to leave things alone that they were born to chase then yeah you should rehome. Most definitely not the right dogs for you. And why you would get 2 at one time is confusing?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Getting two puppies at the same time, expecting them to make the right decisions at 5 months old, and allowing them to roam not only your property to kill livestock, but the neighbors' as well? I agree that the best thing is to return them to the breeder.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You have enough grief to deal with, just wanted to say sorry it happened. I know we all get those moments where we think something will be ok and just the opposite happens. Take your time and make the decision the works best you and your family.


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## Al Pozzolini (Aug 13, 2013)

At least you know what kind of food to feed them...Lamb and Rice?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The absolute smartest thing you can do for these dogs is to return them to the breeder. It seems that you expect puppies to be completely trained and mature and be able to make good decisions without the benefit of time and effort!

Unfortunately, it seems you have had problem after problem with these two....but overall, the problems seem to be based in some misconception you have about what pups "know" - or what you think they know!!! They are still babies, not even teenagers in comparative terms, and have not had consistent structure and guidance...Please please please return them to the breeder so they can be rehomed and not pay with their lives for their just being puppies who are let to have freedome without training and structure ...

I am very sad about your daughters poor lamb!!!    Seeing pups destroy and gut soft toys I am not surprised though, this is just instinct....

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

how in the world was that even possible to happen in the first place. 

we have raised dozen and dozen of pups around livestop (lambs, sheeps, goats, chicken, ducks, geese and horses) and not once has a dog gotten into the pens and killed any of the livestock. 

While Shepherds are Herding dogs, they are also predators! 

It's a matter of management (livestock and dogs) and common sense.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sounds like someone needs an E Collar and a Run, I wouldnt rehome but to each their own.


Yup! My friend had a rottie that killed a goat. Ecollar and training avoidance to the goats and chickens and the problem was fixed! He doesn't go near any of them anymore.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, most dogs (especially one's on farms) need to be taught proper behavior around the livestock....please don't get another dog with high prey drive if you are going to continue to live around livestock....maybe an older dog, adoption? That has already been tested or lived around livestock?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

These are 5 month old puppies!!!!!!!! The owner is not educated about behavior and seems to think they know how to behave - not trash the house, not eat their stool, etc etc...An e-collar is the last thing he needs to do to these PUPPIES....even very experienced people do not normally want to raise littermates....

Lee


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

kerryandruby said:


> so both my pups killed my girls lamb this morning, clean kill to the neck. they also wont stop harassing the neighbors stock and try to chase our cat which im sure given the chance will kill that too, so its a sad day for me but im re homing them both back to the breaders, there 5 months old now and we have been teaching them since day one to leave the animals alone and the one time i thought they would be ok they wernt and now they have had the taste i cant trust they wont do it again.
> 
> absolutely gutted i am but feed up aswell.


Sorry to hear about the lamb......we get very attached to our pet lambs here too.
My dog would have killed a lamb at that age if he was left to his own devices. This is a management issue ........they just can't be able to do this or they will be hurt.
They are just doing what pups/ dogs do if they are unsupervised.
Try to take the emotion out of it and see it for what it is......more training more supervision will ensure it doesn't happen again.
Even now with all the training my bloke has had around stock he is never in a situation where he could do this type of thing.......training and management and everyone will be safe.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Just gonna add that I personally wouldn't use an e-collar on 5 month old puppies, anyway. With PUPPIES, prevention is key. Pups need guidance - something they can't have if they're allowed to run loose.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> These are 5 month old puppies!!!!!!!! The owner is not educated about behavior and seems to think they know how to behave - not trash the house, not eat their stool, etc etc...An e-collar is the last thing he needs to do to these PUPPIES....even very experienced people do not normally want to raise littermates....
> 
> Lee


This!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

You can train dogs around livestock without an ecollar........just takes time and perseverance


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> These are 5 month old puppies!!!!!!!! The owner is not educated about behavior and seems to think they know how to behave - not trash the house, not eat their stool, etc etc...An e-collar is the last thing he needs to do to these PUPPIES....even very experienced people do not normally want to raise littermates....
> 
> Lee


@Lee Didn't see the 5 month old part. My friend's rottie was a 1 year old rescue. Ideally it would have been taught from day 1 that it wasn't allowed to chase/harass the livestock. One session with an ecollar teaching avoidance and the dog has been a farm-hand dog ever since. ;-)

I also have not seen any other posts from OP, but it sounds like back-to-the-breeder, is the best option for reasons up to, and including this post. I've seen this age of dogs taught obedience around livestock with a pinch or pop-pop-correction for paying any attention to the livestock. Like I said though, most farmers(and I know a LOT of farmers, I used to work with an equine/large animal vet and my husbands whole family are farmers in Iowa) I know teach the pups livestock manners from the get go.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If you want to keep this Pups: GET A TRAINER!
If you do not want to keep the Pups: RETURN THEM TO THE BREEDER!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

sparra said:


> You can train dogs around livestock without an ecollar........just takes time and perseverance


Of course you can, but the fastest and most effective I have seen is with corrections and praise for proper actions.....no big deal, you can do it however you want to....but when we are talking about a dog that has already killed, and is out of control, and the next situation could be a bullet from a local farmer....well, I'll go with the short, clear, concise, sessions, that teach avoidance and obedience...immediately. I never said you couldn't do it any other way....just the fastest I have seen. And I actually have a lot of experience with farms and farm dogs. *Most never have a problem because they do it right from 8 weeks old.....but every now and then there is an older dog, rescue, that needs to quickly be taught control of impulses....and most farmers I know don't have time to play cookies, patience, and positive-only. To each there own, though. ;-)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DaniFani said:


> @Lee Didn't see the 5 month old part. My friend's rottie was a 1 year old rescue. Ideally it would have been taught from day 1 that it wasn't allowed to chase/harass the livestock. One session with an ecollar teaching avoidance and the dog has been a farm-hand dog ever since. ;-)
> 
> I also have not seen any other posts from OP, but it sounds like back-to-the-breeder, is the best option for reasons up to, and including this post. I've seen this age of dogs taught obedience around livestock with a pinch or pop-pop-correction for paying any attention to the livestock. Like I said though, most farmers(and I know a LOT of farmers, I used to work with an equine/large animal vet and my husbands whole family are farmers in Iowa) I know teach the pups livestock manners from the get go.



READ the posts and threads about these pups!

OP seems to love GSDs and the pups...but does not have the background and experience to discern that puppies do not come with the persona of Rin Tin Tin!!! Telling him to train them etc is probably not helpful as he has no foundation of knowledge to make a good start....

I have taught ALL my dogs how to behave around livestock, esp. horses myself...leashes and prong collars (if older bigger dogs) are a must as is close supervision....

Lee


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## Al Pozzolini (Aug 13, 2013)

Sorry for your tough situation. You may not be able to cure the dogs of their memory, but at least you know your dogs aren't timid. You might use this to your training advantage. After all, knowledge is power. Be calm, and find a positive and grow from it.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Of course you can, but the fastest and most effective I have seen is with corrections and praise for proper actions.....no big deal, you can do it however you want to....but when we are talking about a dog that has already killed, and is out of control, and the next situation could be a bullet from a local farmer....well, I'll go with the short, clear, concise, sessions, that teach avoidance and obedience...immediately. I never said you couldn't do it any other way....just the fastest I have seen. And I actually have a lot of experience with farms and farm dogs. *Most never have a problem because they do it right from 8 weeks old.....but every now and then there is an older dog, rescue, that needs to quickly be taught control of impulses....and most farmers I know don't have time to play cookies, patience, and positive-only. To each there own, though. ;-)


What's with the eyeroll.......I am a farmer .....we run over 3000 head of sheep using our kelpie ........we dont want avoidance so yes we use patience.
5 month old puppies dont require an ecollar which you clarified....all good.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> READ the posts and threads about these pups!
> 
> OP seems to love GSDs and the pups...but does not have the background and experience to discern that puppies do not come with the persona of Rin Tin Tin!!! Telling him to train them etc is probably not helpful as he has no foundation of knowledge to make a good start....J
> I have taught ALL my dogs how to behave around livestock, esp. horses myself...leashes and prong collars (if older bigger dogs) are a must as is close supervision....
> ...


Yes.....a long line made out of baling twine is inexpensive and works wonders.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> READ the posts and threads about these pups!
> 
> OP seems to love GSDs and the pups...but does not have the background and experience to discern that puppies do not come with the persona of Rin Tin Tin!!! Telling him to train them etc is probably not helpful as he has no foundation of knowledge to make a good start....
> 
> ...


Alright, skimmed through older posts. I agree with others, pups should just go back to the breeder. Honestly, at this point, I think if they don't they will get shot by a neighbor. Farmers rarely put up with one harassment of their livestock let alone multiple...and they shouldn't have to.

OP, it doesn't seem that you understand how important management of the dog's environment is. I see that you are training "constantly" (according to your other post), but training with a cookie, in your living room (just ASSuming here lol) and getting perfect obedience does NOT mean the dog is "proofed" to behave under the unbelievable exciting situation of chickens/lambs/goats etc...

There is a video on Denise Fenzi's site where she is trying to get her (I think 1 year old) Terv (sp?) to do obedience with ONE chicken, in a box, in the middle of her backyard. She loses her dog by the end of it, and can't get focus. This is a dog that she shows "proofed" in her family room.....well of course the dog will be obedient in a family room, with cookies, and no distractions. 

I think this is such an important distinction that a lot of people don't know, and as you can see, can result in the *death* of another animal. You are talking about animals (GSDs, Mals, etc) with very VERY intense prey drive. So intense, that you and the cookie (usually) will not be anything nearly as fun or entertaining as the chicken/goat/lamb. And if these dogs haven't been taught since introduction to the home, that livestock is completely off limits...well, then you have a problem. 

I wonder if OP had great obedience/recalls in sterile environments, and never bothered to teach the dog about livestock...because it was too young? To really care about it if they were ever close to it...or (worse) it was cute to watch a little puppy chase chickens/goats/lambs (because it was too little to do damage), so the behavior was reinforced and suddenly the dog is big enough to do damage...has the pack mentality with it's litter mate...and kills....I only give this scenario, because I've seen it. Specifically with someone who boarded horses at a place that had chickens/goats....brought their dog in only a few times when it was little(thought it was cute when it chased the chicken), and then it came in big enough to do damage, and owner was shocked when it killed the rooster.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

sparra said:


> What's with the eyeroll.......I am a farmer .....we run over 3000 head of sheep using our kelpie ........we dont want avoidance so yes we use patience.
> 5 month old puppies dont require an ecollar which you clarified....all good.


Haha, sorry I jumped on the defensive there....you obviously know more than me there haha. 3000 sheep!? That's awesome!! I'm thinking of having my corgi go in for the herding test to see how his instincts are. I wouldn't want avoidance either, but the farmers I know don't use their dogs for herding. They are coyote deterrents, farm companions, and every now and then they "think" they are herding lol! I don't know any sheep farmers....all cattle and pigs, some fancy horses, and poultry, and then of course the Iowans are all bean/corn farmers with a few pigs ;-). So they just mainly want their dogs to leave the animals alone.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm just trying to comprehend a 5 month old puppy killing anything? Both of mine have prey drive and I just can't see them doing something like this. They would never even have the opportunity. Maybe these dogs should be rehomed, before they get into trouble with someone in the area.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I'm just trying to comprehend a 5 month old puppy killing anything? Both of mine have prey drive and I just can't see them doing something like this. They would never even have the opportunity. Maybe these dogs should be rehomed, before they get into trouble with someone in the area.


Oh I bet given the opportunity they would....thing is most people aren't really around livestock, so it's not a huge worry. My guy doesn't even have *huge prey drive, but we were training up north at a guy's house that has a bucnch of chickens. I was on the training field and my dog (just turned 6 months) was playing tug with me, I wasn't paying attention, and we literally almost ran over a dang hen. My dog turned into a different dog, it was like nothing else existed except that chicken. Thank goodness I had him on a long line that I grabbed up...I don't doubt he would have killed it....but until then I probably would have said, "nah....my guy wouldn't." Lol! Boy was I wrong ;-) It's just most don't have chickens around to proof their dog with lol.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Because people do not realize that dogs are actually predators. To a lot of people a 1 year old dog is still a Baby... and they believe that these "Babys" can do no wrong and should be able to reason.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Haha, sorry I jumped on the defensive there....you obviously know more than me there haha. 3000 sheep!? That's awesome!! I'm thinking of having my corgi go in for the herding test to see how his instincts are. I wouldn't want avoidance either, but the farmers I know don't use their dogs for herding. They are coyote deterrents, farm companions, and every now and then they "think" they are herding lol! I don't know any sheep farmers....all cattle and pigs, some fancy horses, and poultry, and then of course the Iowans are all bean/corn farmers with a few pigs ;-). So they just mainly want their dogs to leave the animals alone.


No worries. 3000 sheep is a lot of work!!!! We are shearing at the moment....have today off.....will take us a couple weeks.
We also have 5000 acres under crop.....wheat, canola,barley, peas, beans.
Our kelpie is very handy....not a fabulous sheep dog but handy. My GSD gets a go too.....he is pretty good and has fun which is the main thing.
He was basically attached to me on a long line for the first 6 months or so but graduated to being off the line and now just does his thing on his own.
You are right.....the earlier the better.....these pups would be fine with the right training.

llombardo....it doesn't take a lot to kill a lamb


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Because people do not realize that dogs are actually predators. To a lot of people a 1 year old dog is still a Baby... and they believe that these "Babys" can do no wrong and should be able to reason.


Basically like expecting a toddler to have enough reason or sense to not put their hand on a hot stove....


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Hmm didnt catch the 5 month part..Id wait another month then go with the E Collar..  
Fyi The E Collar doesnt have to be used to teach full on avoidance. I would just punish inappropriate contact on a lower setting if I wanted the dog to actually herd the sheep.
Avoidance, higher level of stim for any type of fixation / chase behavior.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

I personally think that these pups should go back to the Breeder. The OP clearly does not have what it takes to train these two dogs... It might be different if they had only one but having two pups from the same litter can be a disaster! When dealing with livestock you need to train early! These pups should have been on a long line or a leash and been taught not to bother any of the farm animals. 

Although I do not have livestock myself (I plan on one day having some though) I have many MANY friends and family that do. So when I got Penny it was management and training from the get go. I would take her over to friends/family's farms/hobby farms and put Penny on her long line, from there if she showed any aggressive behavior she would get a correction. For smaller animals like the chickens/rabbits/geese/ducks she was taught its a big NO NO to even try to interact with these animals and now she simply ignores them when she is near them.

As for Penny and goats/sheep... She loves them! I have had her out with baby goats and sheep for the past 4 months and she loves them, when she first had contact again it was all about management and training. Now she can come into paddocks with us (and her other doggy friends) and she plays (gently) with the baby goats, although she still has a hate on for the one goat who is very mean and tries to headbutt everything and everyone lol Penny barks at her but knows not to go near that one!

So OP I think you made the right decision to give them back to the breeder. There they will go to (hopefully) someone who knows more about this breed and knows how to train and handle them. 

Sorry about your daughters Lamb that would have been very sad for sure


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Oh I bet given the opportunity they would....thing is most people aren't really around livestock, so it's not a huge worry. My guy doesn't even have *huge prey drive, but we were training up north at a guy's house that has a bucnch of chickens. I was on the training field and my dog (just turned 6 months) was playing tug with me, I wasn't paying attention, and we literally almost ran over a dang hen. My dog turned into a different dog, it was like nothing else existed except that chicken. Thank goodness I had him on a long line that I grabbed up...I don't doubt he would have killed it....but until then I probably would have said, "nah....my guy wouldn't." Lol! Boy was I wrong ;-) It's just most don't have chickens around to proof their dog with lol.


I had ducks and geese and LOTS of them. Sometimes 50 at a time. Not one of my dogs ever even tried to chase them. They were around them from the moment they(dogs) walked into my home(because ducks were there year round). Even my male that came in when he was older never bothered with them. These ducks would be within 5 ft of them or right outside the door, no reaction. It would not be allowed, period.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Please send the pups back to the breeder. First mistake was getting TWO puppies and it went down hill from there. The breeder should never have sold two together in the first place but it sounds like (based on your post) he/she will take them back (hoping that is not an assumption on your part and it has been discussed).


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Delgado was raised from the day he was born with dogs, cats, parrots, fish, horses, sheep, cows, chickens, and turkeys. Even with all the desensitizing he had from day one it took a lot of proofing for Delgado to be reliable 

Even now if I just left him outside unsupervised at my parents...I would hope he would behave but I wouldn't bet on it. Dogs are dogs and predatory nature is part of their makeup. For him it would be play rather than hunting but that switch could be flipped at any time.

I simply take the precaution of watching him when he's not inside the house or in the fenced yard, I can call him off easily if I see him focusing too hard and no one gets hurt. 

Accidents can happen; if the OP took all precautions and it was an accident that they got out I wouldn't blame the dogs. If the OP was leaving them outside unsupervised and expected them to behave then I don't blame the dogs either. You can't blame and be angry at an animal for doing something that is natural to them; it's up to the humans to protect both the dog and other animals. It sounds like the pups going back to the breeder is the best action; hopefully they’ll find homes that will be a better match for them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I brought chickens in when my youngest was 4 and oldest 11. (dogs that is

The gsd is fine around the chickens altho I'd never leave her alone with them The aussies would love to pounce and kill one if they were free ranging.

Dogs are dogs, if supervised they can be managed. Accidents DO happen, but reading back on some of the OP's previous postings, I think they've lacked training.

One dog is one thing, two is a pack, and they WILL cause havoc if left to their own devices especially puppies.

I also think returning them to the breeder is the best idea, you can't expect puppies to train themselves, nor realize what's right and wrong . These dogs ARE a herding breed, and again, don't train themselves, it takes supervision, committment and patience..


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Also - I think people who offer advice should consider the experience level of the intended user!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would not give a child a chainsaw would you??? Try to understand the level of experience and perspective of the OP...E collars are great TRAINING tools - but should not just be strapped on and start hitting the button!!!! Everyone wants to be so helpful - and authoritative, but is not looking at the whole situation! E Collars are sophisticated tools and easy to abuse....telling someone with no experience to start correcting these pups with an e-collar and they will understand is unrealistic!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Without clear understanding, and training goals with a definite game plan, these two pups are doomed if they are allowed to run free and expected to have the innate understanding of a Rin Tin Tin.....everyone giving examples as of how THEIR dogs are fine with livestock is an experienced owner to some extent - some extremely experienced....the OP is NOT experienced, and does not have realistic expectations of these pups.


Please rehome these pups to someone who will understand that they are PUPPIES and will treat and train them accordingly.

Lee


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This kind of post absolutely floors me. You got two predators, whose method of playing involves killing. That is what dogs do when they go after a toy, they pretend to kill it.
Two predators, forming a little pack, left around baby livestock. Hmmmm...
Yeah. Rehoming these dogs would be a great idea.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Also - I think people who offer advice should consider the experience level of the intended user!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would not give a child a chainsaw would you??? Try to understand the level of experience and perspective of the OP...E collars are great TRAINING tools - but should not just be strapped on and start hitting the button!!!! Everyone wants to be so helpful - and authoritative, but is not looking at the whole situation! E Collars are sophisticated tools and easy to abuse....telling someone with no experience to start correcting these pups with an e-collar and they will understand is unrealistic!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Without clear understanding, and training goals with a definite game plan, these two pups are doomed if they are allowed to run free and expected to have the innate understanding of a Rin Tin Tin.....everyone giving examples as of how THEIR dogs are fine with livestock is an experienced owner to some extent - some extremely experienced....the OP is NOT experienced, and does not have realistic expectations of these pups.
> 
> ...


Your right of course e collars are not as complicated and awful as many on here make them out to be, but they do require common sense and some research of which their seems to be a lack in this case.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

This is going to be a bit harsher then I like but your pups did not kill your daughter's lamb. 

You did.

I am floored that in addition to this incident you made the statement that the farmers are getting fed up. I live in a farming community, if my dogs started harassing livestock it would be their death sentence and while it would break my heart I would be responsible for their deaths, not the farmer protecting his living.

This is a trainable issue. If you are willing to train it. If not, for whatever reason, please return the pups to the breeder so that they have a chance.


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## GoldenGloves (Jul 7, 2013)

Al Pozzolini said:


> At least you know what kind of food to feed them...Lamb and Rice?


Ouch! I like your "dark" humor Al 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

GoldenGloves said:


> Ouch! I like your "dark" humor Al
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Me too. If only there was a LIKE and DISLIKE button on every post. This would have been a LIKE.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

I have heard of sheep that from the day they are born they are looking for new and inventive ways to die 

Point of interest, I was talking with an Idaho rancher friend over the 'net recently re: sheepdogs. Cattle dogs like heelers and I suppose the original corgis commonly drive cows with their teeth ie. biting at the cow's heels to get it to move. Hence both these breeds are notorious ankle-biters on humans.

OTOH I have always heard that biting or nipping sheep in a sheepdog is regarded as a serious fault and that they are bred with a bite inhibition.

My friend related a case where his sister's yorkie got into a pen with a lamb and went into full terrier mode, attacking it and actually hanging by its teeth from the wool. 

Sounds comical but the lamb later died even though no visible wounds were inflicted, the way my friend explained was that a sheep's skin is but loosely attached to the body and the tiny dog had caused enough subdermal damage by hanging from it that the sheep died.

...and I agree with previous posters, a long leash and firm consistent discipline early one oughtta nip livestock chasing in the bud from the get go. Various family members own horses, cattle and sheep, and it is a given that their dogs (mostly heelers now) are left loose around them.

On the topic of loose dogs getting shot....

Here in Texas a rifle, especially the various assault rifle clones, are common implements on ranches, brung along for use on feral hogs, coyotes and loose dogs. That sort of rifle being all at once reliable, portable, and having the range and firepower to efficiently hit as many pigs as possible before they flee out of sight and to allow multiple attempts to hit fleeing coyotes. Many ranchers/landowners also shoot ALL loose dogs on sight, especially if they don't recognize them.

Just too much money tied up in their animals to do anything different.

Birdwatcher


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Birdwatcher said:


> I have heard of sheep that from the day they are born they are looking for new and inventive ways to die
> 
> Point of interest, I was talking with an Idaho rancher friend over the 'net recently re: sheepdogs. Cattle dogs like heelers and I suppose the original corgis commonly drive cows with their teeth ie. biting at the cow's heels to get it to move. Hence both these breeds are notorious ankle-biters on humans.
> 
> ...


FYI - an article about German Style Herding and gripping sheep Leerburg | American Controversy over German Sheep Herding "The HGH"

In AKC herding trials, gripping is not allowed. In AHBA, dogs may grip the sheep if it is warranted (to get them moving). Obviously, excessive gripping is not allowed. 

These puppies, unfortunately, just didn't know any better and did not have any supervision. Not their fault. At 9 yrs old, I would *possibly* let my female around livestock unsupervised for a few minutes if I had to (and it would depend on the livestock - certainly not chickens, etc). If her brother (Levi) were still alive, NEVER - he would make some poor decisions on his own, yet he was an excellent herder. Together would I allow them unsupervised around livestock? - an even stronger NEVER than just letting Levi around them unsupervised.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

Thank you for that informative post, I will pass it along. It would certainly explain why shepherds and malinois are different from border collies and such.

Again in the interest of general dog topics, this is a pic taken forty years ago back in New York State...










At that time, in America, the Old English Sheepdog was trendy, but being bred here for hair and size and not much else. 

Mozart there, in the pic, was an actual British dog imported from England, the wealthy lady that had imported him was one of the horsey set but quickly found Mozart too much to handle. When he started guarding the horses and the horse barns against their actual owners that was too much  

And so he was passed on to us. Really our first dog as we had recently moved here from England ourselves, and were never able to have dogs as kids because our parents knew we'd be emigrating at some point.

I have never seen an actual working Old English Sheepdog, even in England, but Mozart turned out to be a wonderful dog, with good working dog brains. About 50lbs full grown (smaller than the American Old English version at the time), shaved of his hair he resembled a fuzzy, tailless, lop-eared, barrel-chested doberman and was blessed with a similar speed and agility.

I never did see him kill anything though, not even a mouse.

Our house at the time had an old-fashioned porch with inside and outside doors enclosing about a 6'x6' alcove. We had chickens (which Mozart didn't bother) and kept the bag of feed in the corner of this alcove.

One day there was this large rat hiding under the sack of feed so I called the dog, closed me, the dog and the rat inside the alcove, and with a flourish pulled aside the sack of feed....

All heck broke loose  The rat bouncing off of the walls and running up my legs, the dog right on the rat, and me jumping around yelling at the dog to get the rat.

But... he would NOT bite down on it. Finally I ended up stomping on the rat to kill it.

I have always figured that was an example of an inhibited bite reflex, and presumed that was from his sheepdog roots.

Birdwatcher


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## kerryandruby (Jul 1, 2013)

i know i done the wrong thing letting them out that morning. my mistake totaly but i never thought they could get the gate open (smart doggies)
. littermates are hard core and i have learnt the hard way. the bitch came to work with me every day and the male stayed at home with the wife and kids. we trained every day with them and they were fantastic but put them together and it was just trouble i also no that they are still babies and need alot more training etc . they have been taken back to the breaders and one has already found a great home at the beach, i dont like my desision here but i think it was for the best for us and them to give them the best posible out come. when we ever decide to get another dog it will only be one and i hope it to still be a shepherd. this has taught me a awfull lot about what to do and not what to do. i feel i have done the right thing despite people flaming me.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

kerryandruby said:


> i dont like my desision here but i think it was for the best for us and them to give them the best posible out come. when we ever decide to get another dog it will only be one and i hope it to still be a shepherd. this has taught me a awfull lot about what to do and not what to do. i feel i have done the right thing despite people flaming me.


Good for you...... learning things the hard way often has a lasting effect.


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