# Calling All Pedigree Experts...



## chicagojosh

Hi All,

I got the Pedigress from the breeder. I've never read these before and don't know anything about the parents. If anyone has some insight about my puppy's pedigree I would very much appreciate your input...

thanks in advance!

Josh


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## Xeph

I really can't help much but to tell you that you've got some nice dogs in there


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## JKlatsky

Are these the pedigrees for the parents?

The first one doesn't look like much. Only hip ratings are far back in the lines, I don't see any CH confirmation titles, and nothing strikes me as German, and based on some of the names I would bet American pet lines. 

The second one is better in that it seems from what I can see to be based mostly in DDR/Czech working lines. This dog on the database has the same pedigree.
Foose Vom Hoyle Haus pedigree information - German shepherd dog

You can see that there are more OFA results, and in the third generation you finally see some titles, specifically Agar, who is Czech.


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## Xeph

Whoop! Didn't see there were two pedigrees! The first pedigree really isn't anything, and is likely just pet lines, but the second one (that I originally commented on) is indeed nicer


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## chicagojosh

thank both of you. as i mentoined, these are totally foreign to me. Xeph, how can you tell there are nice dogs in there? the letters/numbers by their name? told ya i have no idea how to read these lol

Jklatsky, yes maximum the dad and Myia the mom. after joining this site i decided i wanted to try and learn more about pedigrees and bloodlines and all.

thanks


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## Samba

I don't recognize any dogs, kennels or lines in the first pedigree. The Taft's would be the best source of information perhaps on these dogs. 

The second pedigree does eventually go back to predominantly czech and DDR dogs. 

The breeder would best be able to tell you about the lines and the characteristics they were trying to bring through to their breeding goals.


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## chicagojosh

thanks Samba. she didnt have a ton to say about them, but was happy to provide the papers. 

this was my 1st GSD. I am extremely happy with him. but next time around I will definitely do more research on the breeder.

what is DDR? thanks


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## JKlatsky

DDR is the Deutsche Demokratische Republik or East Germany. Mom has some DDR dogs a ways back in her pedigree.


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## chicagojosh

thanks for explaining..i have a lot to learn lol


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## MaggieRoseLee

chicagojosh said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I got the Pedigress from the breeder. I've never read these before and don't know anything about the parents. If anyone has some insight about my puppy's pedigree I would very much appreciate your input...
> 
> thanks in advance!
> 
> Josh


Did you run any of the dog's names thru the pedigreedatabase.com? You'll probably get to see photos and more info on the dogs.


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## cliffson1

If your dog's pedigree is the same as Foose, then I like the pedigree a lot. The Kuhnhof dogs were from the breeder Joseph Kuhns who imported and bred some of the Best DDR(East German)dogs, when the curtain first went down. Some of the dogs in this pedigree going back to Addi, Gomo, Held v Ritterberg, are very very nice dogs. Agar was owned by Nancy Sutton of Westwood kennel and was an example of the old Czech border patrol dogs. These dogs should have good strong nerve, possibly a little reactive, excellent family dogs, and very much like the GS of the 60's in type and structure. Joseph Kuhns hass passed on and he had a brother, Adam who also had DDR dogs but I don't know if he is still breeding.


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## Samba

I believe that Joe Kuhn had Haus Kuhn and Adam had Kuhnhoff kennels, perhaps? I wish I could remember the Joe stories I heard as they were good ones.

Josh, your dog shares several kin in the pedigree with my Samba girl. She carries Addi Toteneichen also. They share Elona Kuhnhoff through Brix Laimbachtal. Your fellow also carries a line with Lacy Kunhoff where Samba has her sister, Linda Kuhnhoff.

As I look at my girl's pedigree and see these dogs up close in there, I cringe at her age. As Cliff relays.... good nerve, a bit reactive, a most excellent companion and very devoted family dog. I hope you have something of these traits in your dog also! 

Mine exhibits very good innate tracking and also herding skills. If you look for things to do with your dog, you might check those activities out!


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## cliffson1

Samba,
I think you are right about the differences in the brothers kennel names. Thanks!!


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## Cyrak6

Hello, Josh -

I am in the process of trying to figure out exactly what I am looking for, and which breeder to go with. I was looking at photos of your dog, Cody, and he is beautiful! Do you mind telling me where you got him, so I can research that breeder?

Thank you!


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## chicagojosh

hi all, been busy, so sorry for the delay replying!

Cliffson1 and Samba - Thanks for the valuable input. I find it amazing how much you guys know about all these breeders and generations of GSD's.

Cody has made an excellent companion. good temperment and boy does he TRACK! as of now we're still working through basic obediance. he is only 8 months. he passed his puppy class, and then i took a break so our weekends wouldn't be tied up all summer. instead we've been doing lots of camping, hiking and swimming with the dogs. come fall, he's going back for basic obediance and then onto advanced. afterward i was looking at either agility or tracking for him. in the meantime we are of course pounding in all the basic commands, slowly adding distractions etc...

Cyrak6- the breeder was Sally Batha. her e-mail is [email protected]. She's located in Sterling Il, and I think I saw her Facebook page mention another litter... thanks for the compliment!


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## agilegsds

cliffson1 said:


> Joseph Kuhns hass passed on and he had a brother, Adam who also had DDR dogs but I don't know if he is still breeding.


Adam Kuhn is Haus Kuhn and he is still breeding. The kennel is around the corner from me - one minute away. Looks like he has quite a few dogs. I haven't been in there but I see them from the road.


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## cliffson1

I remember Adam had Rex v haus Iris, a bi-color stud. Very very nice looking dog.


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## Samba

Rex










Masculine looks.


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## NarysDad

Cliff's right Joe has passed away and his brother Took over for his dogs. Joe's kennel was Kuhnhoff. I haven't heard much from Adam for a few year though


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## todd hansen

adam is in woodstock and still breeding. i have a 9 month old black and tan male and a 5 yr old import black female of his. he is a great guy. sad to say i never met his brother but adam is very knowledgeable when it comes to shepherds. you guys should stop by him, he'd be happy to see you i am sure !!!


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## cliffson1

Carmen has a wealth of knowledge, some of it firsthand, on the second pedigree!!


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## carmspack

Cliff I do indeed. As you know Joe Kuhn and I were good friends . To this day I remain good friends with a lady who was very close to him , handled all his animals , knew them inside out. She has a very tough little black dog from me that she says Joe would have loved.

Joe Kuhn and his brother were very different. Joe was a steward of the breed. He was in charge of the direction based on what he thought was right. He did not breed to the whims of the market , did not provide a supply for the demand. 
Joe Kuhn was Kuhnhof kennels. I can hear his voice even as I type -- he always answered the phone "kuhnhof kennels" in that deep sonorous voice. And then we got on to joking around.

His brother Adam . Very different . More of a pleaser . Adam is haus Kuhn , but many of the matches and or breeding partners were Kuhnhof . As a kennel Adam wanted to breed more to the wants of the average American - softer dog , more showy. What can I say but normal family friction .

The first dog I had from Joe was Idonah haus Kuhn Idonah vom Haus Kuhn - German shepherd dog progeny of a Kuhnhof female (Ranka) and according to Joe he was instrumental in the breeding of her sire Odin . 
I took her to breed to a brand new import that Joe had got in Ulf haus Iris . Joe was relatively new to DDR dogs at the time. He was not into getting excited about the origin of a dog . He wanted to see the nerve and temperament . Here is a result of that breeding of Idonah to Ulf Carmspack Kilo - German shepherd dog
Don Rolandsteich had been available in North America for a while and I had a lot of interest in him . There was no provision for recognizing registration so I bided my time.

I did jump when Grando Mecklenburger Buffel was available Carmspack Mocca Yeulett - German shepherd dog
I was the first in Canada to breed to a DDR dog , when no provisions existed for CKC (public stud book recognition) . I fought for almost 3 years for full recognition which laughingly coincided with the Wall coming down . 
The dam that I took to Grando , Tetley, had a sire that was a working west coast police dog carrying Marko Cellerland , Kai Silberbrand , etc. Her sisters Jasmine, Salada and Stash were rcmp SAR and her brother TomBrown was an rcmp dog that died on the operating table while having surgery from knife wounds sustained during an arrest. Tetley was the dam of two of the first dogs with Metro Toronto Police , Tell , and the black dog Keno who opens my web page, who is a Purina Hall of Fame winning dog. I mentioned this particular breeding because every breeding done was done to match and advance this combination into future generations.

Back to Kuhnhof -- Josef Kuhn 

One of the all time favourite dogs that Joe had was his Brix Laimbachtal SG Brix vom Laimbachtal - German shepherd dog. He loved Boris Trogenbach , the man stopper. 

I owned Brix daughter Elona Kuhnhof Elona v Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog

I owned Binga Kuhnhof Binga vom Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog

I owned Udet Kuhnhof Udet Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog

I had the opportunity to breed Binga while she was with Joe so I instructed that we match her herding ancestry to his male Tarbes haus Knufken , last of a line merging two very accomplished old herding families of Kirschental and haus Knufken -- . Tarbes was a son of Uran Kirschental at a time when U litter Kirschental was already in the 4th / 5th generation. You could not get any closer. 
Here is the breeding then Carmspack Joker - German shepherd dog

I owned Linda Kuhnhof , Linda vom Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog . I got her by default. I was to get a male "Lion" . Everything was arranged, Joe took him to get the international health certificate and the vaccinations. The dog died within hours of the vaccination -- a bad batch at a particular pharmaceutical. I know which one but that is history so no need to dredge it up. There were other pups dying from the same "batch". There was only one other male , Luger, but he had been promised and so a female was offered. That was Linda Kuhnhof. 
He bought Linda's dam Monchi Malatesta and was thrilled that here was a female so tough that she could back him into a wall . Mink Wittfeld and Monchi have the same mother. Joe also owned Nasra Malatesta who I believe was also a Alfa daughter.

I owned Udet Kuhnhof Udet Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog

Joe was not into ddr or czech . He did own Agar Pohranicni Strasse . Nancy Sutton got him as part of the spoils of Joes estate. Frankly Joe did not know what to do with him or how to use him. Seriously.

He got as excited as a boy at Christmas when he got Ax Schindergraben V Ax vom Schindergraben - German shepherd dog
He was central to our plans -- I had planned a breeding but that did not happen.

Joe liked to see Bert Knufken in his pedigrees , he liked U litter Kirschental .
Joe loved Uran Kirschental . Said that he was a natural , had a natural hardness.

Joe admitted that he was getting older and could finally appreciate an easy dog, which is how he described his Fox Gleisdreieck SG Fox vom Gleisdreieck - German shepherd dog

We had so many discussions. He was not exactly Mr Public Relations . He was intimidating to many. We had great times -- to this day I am good friends with a woman who was very close to him. She has a tough little bitch of mine that she says Joe would have loved -- would have made him proud . 

Ulf haus Iris was sort of his first DDR dog. I found out the importance of his genetics . I did the digging and research on the ddr side of the pedigree and he shared what he knew so very well, the west german working dogs. Joe was not in to schutzhund , said it did not prove much. He was very puzzled by all this need to test a dog in a round about way with ball play. Want tracking -- test tracking , want herding test with sheep, etc. He did not condition dogs or school them for bite work . He let them be, let them age out , and then one day someone came to test them for active aggression and the dogs revealed their true basic selves.

I know why we got along so well. 

The second pedigree is very nice . I know most of the animals on it . All pedigrees that I have provided are woven in to the fabric of my current dogs.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LAPK-9

I use to have a DDR dog from Joe Kuhn. He is the one that knew the most about the bloodlines. Adam does too....but I have my issues with him not being honest about the dogs he has. I'd be surprised if the pedigrees match the dogs he sells let alone the x- rays. Etu von Kuhnhof - German shepherd dog That is the dog I had.He was a serious dog that didn't care if the decoy had a sleeve on or not.He actually rather have them NOT have one on. If I had the money...I would have cloned him before he died. He was the best German Shepherd I have ever had.


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## cliffson1

Good stuff LAk9 and Carmen....to the newbies of the breed....this is a vital piece to acquiring meaningful information about the breed. People like Carmen who learned a lot from Joe. Or Joe who I'm sure learned a lot from Carmen. Researching the lines, mentoring, discussions, sitting up under people and listening and absorbing,etc. Your gut, if you are diligent, will tell you when you hit a treasure trove and then you just have to mine it. Good Stuff!!


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## VomBlack

carmspack said:


> He did own Agar Pohranicni Strasse . Nancy Sutton got him as part of the spoils of Joes estate. Frankly Joe did not know what to do with him or how to use him. Seriously.


Where you (or anyone here really) able to meet Agar? If so what would your opinion be on him, and how did he compare to the z PS dogs in general? My dog's dam has Agar in her pedigree.


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## MrsMiaW

Wow!! I have to say these are always my favorite threads on this forum. You guys, Cliff, Carmen, Chris and others, always have so much amazing information to share. Thanks for helping the rest of us learn so that we can make informed decisions about dogs we are interested in owning and we can have a better understanding of the breed we all love so much!! :toasting:


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## Lehrerin

Samba said:


> I believe that Joe Kuhn had Haus Kuhn and Adam had Kuhnhoff kennels, perhaps? I wish I could remember the Joe stories I heard as they were good ones.
> 
> Josh, your dog shares several kin in the pedigree with my Samba girl. She carries Addi Toteneichen also. They share Elona Kuhnhoff through Brix Laimbachtal. Your fellow also carries a line with Lacy Kunhoff where Samba has her sister, Linda Kuhnhoff.
> 
> As I look at my girl's pedigree and see these dogs up close in there, I cringe at her age. As Cliff relays.... good nerve, a bit reactive, a most excellent companion and very devoted family dog. I hope you have something of these traits in your dog also!
> 
> Mine exhibits very good innate tracking and also herding skills. If you look for things to do with your dog, you might check those activities out!


A bit late-but I just found this site.....Joe Kuhn was KUHNHOF Kennels and his brother Adam was Haus Kuhn.

I owned Connie v. Kuhnhof, CD, HIC, TT, for many years, and she went to college with me Bred her to Jmm v. Fichtenschlag SchHIII, FH for a wonderful litter, and kept one little black and red boy....this goes back many, many years, but I will never forget Joe or my FIRST German Shepherd And all those Apple Schnapps we used to drink back in the day!


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## Valerie Clayton

I know this is an old thread..but wow it sure brings back memories. I had a Marko Von Cellerland linebred bitch that I bred to Joe's Jmm Von Fichtenschlag, i was just a kid, maybe 14 yrs old. As I remember, Jmm was reserve national Sch III champion in 81 or 82? I'll never forget being horrified at how Joe handled the breeding of my reluctant girl LOL. I also remember Dieda and Wanko Kuhnhof when they were owned by Joe Dworatschek, Dieda was an insane worker. I remember seeing VA Wanko Maaraue at Joe's where I believe he stood for only one season and then he went straight back to Germany. I had no idea at the time what a legend of a dog I was seeing. A great grandson of Bernd Lierberg, he was magnificent and his production record for working ability and structure is practically unmatched since. I heard stories that a "U" Kuhnhof litter sired by VA Wanko were so over the top that many were euthanized because most of us here in the states didn't know what to do with these dogs, I knew one of those dogs so I could certainly believe the rumors. Joe was an original, I hope he's floating around somewhere in the sky and hears how much he was appreciated by so many.


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## lhczth

> I heard stories that a "U" Kuhnhof litter sired by VA Wanko were so over the top that many were euthanized because most of us here in the states didn't know what to do with these dogs, I knew one of those dogs so I could certainly believe the rumors.


Valerie, did you see Uwe that was here in MI?


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## Valerie Clayton

Yep, I knew Uwe well.


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## lhczth

I never got to see him, but heard a lot of stories about him from his owner and my SchH mentors. 

Nike goes back on Wanko (so do all the rest of my dogs) through her sire.


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## Valerie Clayton

I hesitate to tell Uwe stories in a public forum because they sound a little, um, extreme to someone who wasn't around back then . I've been out of the dog scene for years now, but i just started working a dog at John Bochenek's club so if I run into you at a trial this summer, I'll spill all my Uwe stories. I'll throw in a few Garp and Granit vom Wolfshagen stories too lol


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## lhczth

Come up and visit sometime . We are only 18 miles via the back roads from John. Would love to hear the stores and even the ones I was told were not for here.


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## carmspack

ah yes , Joe and Adam , oil and water - very different . 
I was absolutely shocked to get the news of Joes passing just hours after a typical marathon length phone call.
Most of the dogs that Joe had , outside of some that Joe D took , were put down by Adam - 

Joe's favourite dogs were WEST - Urban Kirschental, his favourite Brix Laimbachtal whose picture he ran in the Dog World Ads years after Brix was deceased - finally convinced him to be more current. Then he finally got Ax Schindergraben -- his big hope. He loved Ulf Iris , Addi Tonteichen, MONCHI malatesta -- I will have to check into Agar , for some reason I think he may have imported the dog and have been an owner for a period , then sold him to Westwood Nancy Sutton. 
The person who took care of his dogs and lived with him is a friend of mine , who has my dogs , who keep the "Joe" dogs alive for her. I will ask her about Agar.
Joe did not care where they came from , east , czech, he knew his west --.
Okay so what Uwe are you talking about?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Valerie Clayton

Uwe von Kuhnhof. He was a VA Wanko von Maaraue son, born sometime in the mid 80s.


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## carmspack

would you know the dam , please.


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## lafalce

Interesting thread regarding Kuhnhof dogs and since my girl has a few Kuhnhof dogs in her pedigree and must ask, why would Adam put some of his dogs down, if they could of been sold????

That seems kinda sad to me. Actually there is a breeder is southern Illinois that has built his kennel on Kuhnhof dogs and currently has a litter. Carmen, since you know these lines well, do you think his current litter would be OK for a GSD beginner???? My sister's step daughter lives in southern Illinois and is thinking about getting a GSD. This would be her first. This breeder has the linebreeding listed on his website. This would be a companion dog and she would go to obedience classes. I don't see her doing SCH.

the website is www.gidcumbshepherds.com. If you look at the past dogs you will see his foundation dogs.
Thanks


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## carmspack

Joe and Adam liked different types of dogs. Adam produced for the public - a softer dog , beauty dogs . Joe produced to the standard for work - a more robust dog. Joe did not have the "market" dictate to him. 

I got the surprise seeing those pedigrees handwritten in Joes handwriting .

there is no reason why they would not be alright for your relative. I knew many of the dogs, owned some of them, used some of them .


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## Valerie Clayton

I don't remember the dam, if I ever knew it. Joe D. would know.


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## LaRen616

lafalce said:


> the website is www.gidcumbshepherds.com. If you look at the past dogs you will see his foundation dogs.
> Thanks


Utz Vom Haus Gidcumb is my baby's daddy.


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## lafalce

Carmen,
Thanks for checking out that web-site. Yes, I guess they were hand written back in the day.

I'll pass the info on to her. If you can think of any other info regarding his dogs, do continue on.


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## lafalce

Hmmmmm, it is indeed a small world.

Thanks LaRen616:apple:


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## elisabeth_00117

Valerie Clayton said:


> I don't remember the dam, if I ever knew it. Joe D. would know.


Did you or Carmen ever ask Joe D or get this information on who the dam was?

I know Joe from working with him with my male (I am from Essex, just minutes from his home/field) and just reputation around my area. He is the one who taught me and my boy to track. I can remember many a stories from him in the short time I got to know him.


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