# As long as this is supposed to be the "Creme de la Creme" ...



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

... I'm going to hurt feelings and bash Showlines! Ban me if you want but this is unacceptable and destroying our breed so who cares if someones feelings are hurt over *THE TRUTH*!!!!
How can anyone ignore this how can you deny the facts that are right in front of you and presented to the world in Kassel, recorded, put up on youtube for everyone to see? 
It's embarrassing that these dogs are allowed to be called German Shepherds! They are anything but Shepherds and on top of that it is extremely shameful for my country to let profit destroy our breed!

Watch and enjoy unless you have to cry like me!

schutzdienst huendinnen - YouTube


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I see rock solid dogs and read a post written by a fool. 


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

And am quite shocked by the person postings it. 


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

If those dogs look rock solid to you erfunhouse then why were so many DQ'd? I think I'll cry too now.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I prefer to be the fool rather than to accept these dogs as "rock solid".


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

At about the 20:40 mark (handler's number is 2016) what were they exchanging? I saw her give him the scorecard, but then they did something else? 

So far, this is beyond depressing and enlightening, but not in a way I'd like it to be. 

At the bare minimum, this is why it's important (for me) to be able to see the breeder's dogs. Pictures on a website and titles on a pedigree don't seem to mean much, if this is what's behind them....


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

erfunhouse said:


> I see rock solid dogs and read a post written by a fool.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


THOSE are 'rock solid' dogs? 
My POMERANIAN has more confidence than any of the dogs I've seen so far! I'm just past the 20 minute mark....


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I watched for 40 seconds and a helper called a dog to bite by clapping after it was distracted? and then the handler pushed its but down into a sit?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

WOW. One dog (a bit before the 27:00 mark) wasn't heeling, so the handler SPED UP, seemingly (to my untrained eye) to make it appear the dog was heeling.... 

This is just. I have no words.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

For a person who isn't going to hate on a type of GSD those dogs looks gorgeous. They were fearless. They seemed to move quickly. And I've seen worse angulation than that. Not the most severe I've seen. 


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

What title are these dogs going for?


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I thought his was more of the "hate on conformation" deal. I don't know. They looked nervous, but to a normal person decent enough. I guess they won't qualify? Then all the "awful" qualities won't be lauded. Done. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

erfunhouse said:


> For a person who isn't going to hate on a type of GSD those dogs looks gorgeous. They were fearless. They seemed to move quickly. And I've seen worse angulation than that. Not the most severe I've seen.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Fearless? It's a game to them and not a threat. This is not pressure. They can barely hold onto the sleeve. Let the helper run towards them screaming, have a bamboo stick instead of softstick and give them some real hits and they would run.
I don't hate them. I pity them.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Additionally, if this is a trial and these dogs are getting points, it's the judges not the dogs at fault. 


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Fearless? Let the helper run towards them screaming, have a bamboo stick instead of softstick and give them some real hits and they would run crapping their pants.


Well, that's not what they are doing, so that's not what you can judge. Like I said- why bash show breeds? Not the dogs fault. Blame the breeder/trainer/judges. Not the breeds fault. This is a completely inflammatory post. Rather shameful. 


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

erfunhouse said:


> Well, that's not what they are doing, so that's not what you can judge. Like I said- why bash show breeds? Not the dogs fault. Blame the breeder/trainer/judges. Not the breeds fault. This is a completely inflammatory post. Rather shameful.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Of course it's not the dogs' fault. 

The dogs don't choose who they breed with. People do. PEOPLE are doing this. 

'But they're pretty!' Yeah. That's all they are. A pretty face. What about the REST of the dog? The parts that actually MATTER? 
And to call those dogs fearless is a joke, I'm sorry.

ETA: To say they're 'decent enough' is pitiful and probably why these poor dogs are where they are. 'Decent enough' shouldn't cut it!


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Konotashi said:


> Of course it's not the dogs' fault.
> 
> The dogs don't choose who they breed with. People do. PEOPLE are doing this.
> 
> ...


So then why was the OP stating she is going to "bash showlines"...shutzhund is not the be all end all of GSD. Period. Shameful post. 


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My 9 month old is far better at the protection phase (just a game for her) than almost all those dogs? Where is this video from? its not really cream of the crop is it?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

In complete denial and absolutely not understanding anything but I'm the fool.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

erfunhouse said:


> So then why was the OP stating she is going to "bash showlines"...shutzhund is not the be all end all of GSD. Period. Shameful post.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What's more shameful, here? The fact that these dogs are all nervous trainwrecks, and judging by the looks on some of the handlers' faces when they see their scorecard, get (at least) 'decent enough' scores, or the fact that someone can see this and realize that they ARE nervous trainwrecks?

The whole WL vs SL feud isn't about conformation, necessarily. For the most part, from what I've seen (which honestly, isn't a whole lot) WL breeders breed for nerves, temperament, confidence - what makes a DOG a GERMAN SHEPHERD - and conformation isn't the highest on their list, so long as the dog doesn't have such poor conformation that it can't perform at the highest level possible. 

SL breeders, on the other hand, have it totally backwards. It's gotta be PRETTY. If it's not pretty when it trots around a show ring, who cares how well it can work!? 

THAT is the dispute. Not that these dogs have poor conformation. It's that the people who created these dogs seemed to have ONLY focused on that ONE aspect.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

volcano said:


> My 9 month old is far better at the protection phase (just a game for her) than almost all those dogs? Where is this video from? its not really cream of the crop is it?


Bundessiegerzuchtschau in Kassel 2013. These are the females.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I get that they aren't great. Fine. But why bash???? Poor choice for these dogs to do any protection/bite work. Fine. But why the need to bash? Like I said its not the be all end all. Not every dog can do it- not every GSD can do it. 

Now I get why I've read the things of read on this forum. It's disappointing. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Because on here, the truth and facts about Showline dogs is considered bashing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

This one is one of the very few Showline Dogs I really like. 

Yoschi Friedenspark. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=506747279413344&set=vb.100002342281770&type=2&theater


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

erfunhouse said:


> I get that they aren't great. Fine. But why bash???? Poor choice for these dogs to do any protection/bite work. Fine. But why the need to bash? Like I said its not the be all end all. Not every dog can do it- not every GSD can do it.
> 
> Now I get why I've read the things of read on this forum. It's disappointing.
> 
> ...


Therein lies the point. 

Schutzhund was a sport created FOR the GSD _specifically_, designed to be a TEST for GSDs to prove their suitability for working utility and breeding.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I'm not partial to SL. Not a fan of major angulation. On a quick 2 second pass and fast forward while at work- video looked fine. Watched a bit more- saw what u all were pointing out. Ok- so these dogs are not good at THIS SPORT. 


I just don't get the division. I'm absolutely sure I could find videos of WL, DDR and Czech doing poorly. 

Kinda sad. And I'm done with this thread, I have stuff to do. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No one is denying that there are working lines that shouldn't be in the sport nor being bred either. There is a lot of "garbage" out there. 

The issue is, the Bundessiegerzuchtschau is the Nationals for the Showline, so these dogs are supposed to be the Creme of the Crop and year after year I feel embarrassed of what my country has turned our dogs into and to think that this is what people pay 100's of thousands of Euros for makes me sick to my stomach and ashamed.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'd hate to see what dogs that didn't make it to this level look like out there.... Oh wait, maybe they're just not as 'pretty' while they're having a nervous breakdown.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

So thats what German shutzhund looks like? There are showline breders local to me and they title dogs and I dont think they are bad like that? Maybe I should visit and see.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

volcano said:


> So thats what German shutzhund looks like? There are showline breders local to me and they title dogs and I dont think they are bad like that? Maybe I should visit and see.


No, this is not Schutzhund... 

THIS is what German Schutzhund looks like (100 points in IPO1):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201686499273779&set=o.180312755315798&type=2&theater


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Not all the dogs/handler teams were bad. But a bunch were trainwrecks and it sucks if they get titles to put on pedigrees to screw up the future of the breed. Nothing about wl or sl but some of those dogs stink, and they do not deserve a title at all. They probably failed, but I dunno what the name of that event means, hopefully it doesnt mean they won a previous event. Most mutts would be on a sleeve harder than alot of those dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What is the most disappointing to me is that regardless of what type we prefer, you can be assured that many of these dogs have had some of the WORST training there is. They get titles slapped on them (0 to SchH1/2 in less than 6 months?!?). I have seen decent young dogs shipped off to Germany and they return home looking like they were physically and emotionally crushed, someone how have a title yet won't go near a blind, can't do a sit without a ball or food in their face (or someone thrashing on their collar). They are rushed through a title for KKL and breeding since it is required for showing and registering expensive puppies (and supposedly this system is far superior....). They spend months away with "trainers" that are often slapping titles on multiple dogs using whatever method gets it done the fastest. Sorry if I offend but I have YET to see a dog I know return from being titled in Germany and not be a mess. A dog with a nice temperament can certainly continue to train and title with the other but most don't because they have their title so now they can be bred once a year or more....

Anyway, there are decent showlines and breeders but they won't be featured on this video, as they are probably out training and spending time with their dogs, not obsessing over the Sieger Show. I am not embarrassed or ashamed of MY showline because most people who criticize haven't achieved half with their dog(s) as he has. Proof is in the pudding. I love a good dog and I'll look at the silhouette, not the color.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

People here know I love show lines. American show lines specifically. But I agree with Mrs. K and Liesje. That showing was ABYSMAL. And you're right, it is NOT the dogs fault. It is the owners, breeders, and handlers fault.

There were a couple of bitches that got DQ'd that I honestly think would have been very worthy of their titles had they been TRAINED! Their lack of training was obvious! I do not feel their nerves were lacking, I feel it was crap poor work on the part of the handler.

This is an *international high level event* and these girls couldn't even HEEL!

And while we're at it, I would like to comment on the disgustingly harsh treatment by the handlers on some of these bitches. These girls are being cranked on when they clearly BARELY have an idea of what "fuss" means. I am not ok with that.

I'm down with a correction when it is needed, but some of those handlers were cranking on those dogs a TON more than was necessary. If you treated a dog that way at an AKC event, you would be lucky not to be barred from any future exhibition.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm watching as I type, and I give Kudos to #2016 (20:45 time mark). The dog was TRAINED, and I actually thought she was very very nice. That was a good bitch in my opinion.

Her handler seemed to me to be someone that is actually taking the breed very seriously. She was also only the THIRD dog that actually had a real hold and bark. The others either did a weak silent guard or just barked randomly at the helper.

2201 (after 2016) was pathetic. 2016 SHOULD have had the applause 2201 got. What is wrong with people?!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ok....so you take the three years it takes to title them, are they now breed worthy with that title. The same dogs that clearly show anxiety, linking the lips, nervous unsureness, lack of confidence, stressed in a really non stressful environment.......so you get that title, DO YOU BREED the dog?.. Be honest! And if people are I think you will see a major part of what happened to this breed on a large scale.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is not unheard of for the judges to coach the helpers at the Seiger shows to not put too much pressure on the dogs. The highline dogs are about ego, money and greed, not the betterment of the breed and have severely contributed to the decline of the breed. That is not an insult to people on this board who own showline dogs. Hopefully, they will open their minds and become educated that the GSD us a working dog and not a show dog, and sales of showline dogs will decrease. If people want a GSD, but feel they cannot handle a workingline dog, they should either get some assistance or buy a different breed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Xeph said:


> I'm watching as I type, and I give Kudos to #2016 (20:45 time mark). The dog was TRAINED, and I actually thought she was very very nice. That was a good bitch in my opinion.


And the dog was a normal size. Geez... these bitches are MASSIVE!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I am not embarrassed or ashamed of MY showline because most people who criticize haven't achieved half with their dog(s) as he has. Proof is in the pudding.


This I couldn't agree more with. I could only dream of putting as many titles on my dogs as Lies has with Nikon. He's an awesome dog and has WORKED to prove it. My favorite SL... He changed my opinion on them. Yes- there ARE good SLs out there, no doubt.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Ok....so you take the three years it takes to title them, are they now breed worthy with that title. The same dogs that clearly show anxiety, linking the lips, nervous unsureness, lack of confidence, stressed in a really non stressful environment.......so you get that title, DO YOU BREED the dog?.. Be honest! And if people are I think you will see a major part of what happened to this breed on a large scale.


I never said any of these dogs are worthy of anything, I'm just saying that I personally do not judge a dog, nay, an entire line/type of dogs, based on these comically bad 30 second clips. I personally take offense to people showing up a the "premier" world event for these dogs with dogs that have had little to no training (and slapping an e-collar on a dog to work on aus-platz two weeks before the big event is not training) or have been subjected to some of the worst training on the planet. The same thing happens at the big shows here, why I haven't entered or even attended in years. It's embarrassing to watch let alone be a part of. It's a disgrace to the breed, anyone who cares, and the dogs themselves. I'm not going to sit here and speculate which dogs *could* have passed or *might* have decent temperaments. Clearly that's not what matters to these breeders and exhibitors anyway.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It is not unheard of for the judges to coach the helpers at the Seiger shows to not put too much pressure on the dogs.


Oh not only is it not unheard of, it's common, even at club shows. When I took my dog for a breed survey the judge told me that I didn't really have to heel to the blind, I could hold the collar (we heeled off leash the entire time, had to do it for SchH and other protection sports so why change it up for a breed survey). Also the "attack" out of the blind was more like a helper doing a sideways backup bite at a trot. It's depressing but whatever. If that's how they like the test, I guess I can find plenty of other ways to really test and pressure the dog (like any given 30 seconds of protection training at the SchH club).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also as evident by the video clips, simply withholding VA rankings is not the answer (duh)....


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm sure if you looked you can find videos of WL dogs that have titles they don't deserve. 

I'm sure if you looked you can find videos of SL dogs that do deserve their titles. 

I'm sure if you looked you could find SL dogs that put WL dogs to shame. It is all in the invididual dog. 

Your post also assumes that all GSD need to be working dogs and pet GSD's really shouldn't even exist. I can understand the concern that if people are breeding/buying dogs based off title the titles should mean something, but I am sure the same issues exist in WL dogs. 

Like all prejudices once you have made a decision that everything in a group is the same there is no point in trying to change your mind.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The whole attitude of this thread is so disappointing. 

I'll never be ashamed of my showline for not being the absolute most powerful dog on the field. At least we don't have any excuses to say why we couldn't or didn't get out there and do it.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't understand the point of this thread other than to clearly bash on showlines AS USUAL. It really gets old. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> What is the most disappointing to me is that regardless of what type we prefer, you can be assured that many of these dogs have had some of the WORST training there is. They get titles slapped on them (0 to SchH1/2 in less than 6 months?!?). I have seen decent young dogs shipped off to Germany and they return home looking like they were physically and emotionally crushed, someone how have a title yet won't go near a blind, can't do a sit without a ball or food in their face (or someone thrashing on their collar). They are rushed through a title for KKL and breeding since it is required for showing and registering expensive puppies (and supposedly this system is far superior....). They spend months away with "trainers" that are often slapping titles on multiple dogs using whatever method gets it done the fastest. Sorry if I offend but I have YET to see a dog I know return from being titled in Germany and not be a mess. A dog with a nice temperament can certainly continue to train and title with the other but most don't because they have their title so now they can be bred once a year or more....
> 
> Anyway, there are decent showlines and breeders but they won't be featured on this video, as they are probably out training and spending time with their dogs, not obsessing over the Sieger Show. I am not embarrassed or ashamed of MY showline because most people who criticize haven't achieved half with their dog(s) as he has. Proof is in the pudding. I love a good dog and I'll look at the silhouette, not the color.



Agreed.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> The whole attitude of this thread is so disappointing.
> 
> I'll never be ashamed of my showline for not being the absolute most powerful dog on the field. At least we don't have any excuses to say why we couldn't or didn't get out there and do it.


What people do not seem to understand, and sadly you don't seem to have understood it either is, that I do not hate these dogs.* I have issues with the people producing them over greed. I have issues that THESE are the nationals and that THESE are the dogs presented AT THE NATIONALS! When I said I'm bashing Showlines, I wasn't talking about the dogs but of those in charge of producing these dogs. 
*
These are dogs that are supposed to be titled and how many dogs did you ee in this video that would have been able to get through a title, just by seeing what was presented? 

Again, I do not hate these dogs. But the evidence is right before you on an INTERNATIONAL event. 

Yes, I am ashamed. I am ashamed that THIS is what *WE THE GERMANS* have turned the breed into. I am ashamed how evident it is that most of these dogs could not even get through a 1, be it the lack of training or the lack of actual dog. 

I am ashamed and embarrassed that profit and greed is driving the German Shepherd into the ground!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I'm sure if you looked you can find videos of WL dogs that have titles they don't deserve.
> 
> I'm sure if you looked you can find videos of SL dogs that do deserve their titles.


Yeah, you could....but they're both harder to find.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> What people do not seem to understand, and sadly you don't seem to have understood it either is, that I do not hate these dogs.* I have issues with the people producing them over greed. I have issues that THESE are the nationals and that THESE are the dogs presented AT THE NATIONALS! When I said I'm bashing Showlines, I wasn't talking about the dogs but of those in charge of producing these dogs.
> *
> These are dogs that are supposed to be titled and how many dogs did you ee in this video that would have been able to get through a title, just by seeing what was presented?
> 
> ...


Then perhaps that's what you should have originally posted. This is NOT what you originally posted. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wish people took more pride in their own dogs. I'm not even say you have to train and title a dog to "prove" you love him or whatever, but I hate just seeing rows of kennels, dogs that have to be shipped to an entirely different continent just for a SchH1 title, people complaining clubs are too far between yet have no problems dropping tens of thousands on sending their dogs somewhere else and entering every prestigious show with an expensive handler, etc. Heck I don't even like leaving my dog in a crate for more than 4 hours, I can't imagine him sending him away for months. I own dogs because I love dogs, I love their company whether we are at SchH club or walking around the block. A title is nice because it shows that you put in the time together, you put on a public display, you got the nod from a judge that you probably didn't know often in a place you've never been before, but for me it's always been about the journey and always will be. I know people often have high regard for the German system of requiring titles to register breedings but is this really better? It's like in the US we require all these standardized tests and look at our public education...crap in many places, just teaching the tests.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I didn't read all the responses. I blame the trainers. My TD will never allow any of our dogs to enter a competition with dogs that are lacking confidence and training.. it doesn't matter if you have a powerhouse dog or ehem "showline".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

erfunhouse said:


> Then perhaps that's what you should have originally posted. This is NOT what you originally posted.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I said what I said because I'm always accused of bashing Showlines, so alas... I am bashing Showlines once more and I continue to do so. 

If peoples feelings are hurt over the truth that is presented in the video and because people open their mouths and speak the truth than it's their issue, not mine. The proof is in the pudding. 

There are some VERY nice Showlines out there and I've said it over and over and over again, a good dog is a good dog no matter what breed or lines the dog is. 

But THIS is shameful and embarrassing because this is an international event. It's so evident that most of these dogs couldnt even get through a 1 if the handler wanted to because they simply were not trained.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Not sure what this has to do with SL's, all I see is some really horribly trained(if trained much at all) dogs. My dog who has only learned focus heeling a couple months ago can heel better then these dogs... Put a WL out there with the same 'training' and he'd perform exactly the same. But whatever bash away, I'm over it. 

But I do agree if this is all a dog needs to do to be able to pass on its genes and win a title that is not a good thing. But this is NOT all SL dogs, people just want to see what they want to see.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Ok....so you take the three years it takes to title them, are they now breed worthy with that title. The same dogs that clearly show anxiety, linking the lips, nervous unsureness, lack of confidence, stressed in a really non stressful environment.......so you get that title, DO YOU BREED the dog?.. Be honest! And if people are I think you will see a major part of what happened to this breed on a large scale.


 
I would say no, I would not breed the dog. I push for titles because I believe you can learn a lot about your dog in the process. Not because I think that just because a dog achieved them does it magically make a dog breed worthy. One of the weakest nerved dogs I have worked runs a schH routine beautifully. That doesn't change who the dog is. From working and training the dog the breeder can see who the dog is. Then the ball is in their court to make the *ETHICAL *decision to breed or not. As we can all see, there are many parts to this puzzle. 

This thread has shown me that many people have no clue what they see when they are watching a dog perform. It shouldn't bother me, but it does when they make certain arguments.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am the first to say that the same thing is going on in Working Lines. I NEVER denied that since I'm the first to point it out there too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carriesue said:


> Not sure what this has to do with SL's, all I see is some really horribly trained(if trained much at all) dogs. My dog who has only learned focus heeling a couple months ago can heel better then these dogs... Put a WL out there with the same 'training' and he'd perform exactly the same. But whatever bash away, I'm over it.
> 
> But I do agree if this is all a dog needs to do to be able to pass on its genes and win a title that is not a good thing. But this is NOT all SL dogs, people just want to see what they want to see.


You can do a whole lot with todays trainings methods. But if one can't see whats wrong, while it's right in front of them than they are either in denial or they just don't know what exactly they are looking at. 

I am glad that I have learned to see these things without ever having titled a dog. It's right there on the video for the WHOLE WORLD to see what we have turned this breed into. 

Showline AND Working Lines!


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> I get that they aren't great. Fine. But why bash???? Poor choice for these dogs to do any protection/bite work. Fine. But why the need to bash? Like I said its not the be all end all. Not every dog can do it- not every GSD can do it.
> 
> Now I get why I've read the things of read on this forum. It's disappointing.
> 
> ...


GSD were originally bred to work, run, jump, alert, protect, etc. 
they were not originally bred to look pretty trotting around a show ring. 


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Yeah, you could....but they're both harder to find.


How much of that is because WL dogs are out working and not trotted in front of video cameras at dog shows? If there were as many youtube videos of WL dogs getting titled we would probably be seeing posts saying these WL dogs are ruining the breed!!!!! How many people show their WL dogs washing out of the job on youtube? 

How much actual work has to be proven by a breeder to call his dog a WL dog and how much is just the pedegree?

I think it is sad to bash an entire line of dogs because of some at dog shows. Honestly I have never been as impressed with dogs at shows as I have dogs that I see in person.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> The whole attitude of this thread is so disappointing.
> 
> I'll never be ashamed of my showline for not being the absolute most powerful dog on the field. At least we don't have any excuses to say why we couldn't or didn't get out there and do it.


Yes...and plus its just the same old same old...these threads just get so old already:help:


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

People! I'm realizing a problem here. Everyone keeps talking about the "training". Training has nothing to do with it. Look at the dogs! I don't care what line it's from. The point of these surveys and tests was to evaluate DOGS not training. If that's all you can see then stop arguing things you know nothing about.


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## VSGSD (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't think its fair to generalize based on a video that did not even cover all Working class entries at a single Sieger show in Germany. A lot of those bitches were likely rushed through titles with far too much pressure applied far too soon, had those bitches who were rushed through actually had someone take the time to train them properly, I think the outcome would be very different. Dogs who are raised to be competitive in sport, are trained for sport from the beginning, trained slowly in the right way, because scores are important. I doubt there are many dogs competing at the Sieger show trained that way, some yes, most need to simply make the title, pass their breed survey and pass courage tests then go on to show. They make their title, go to club every once in a while, and get a refresher before the sieger show. We will never see some of these dogs true potential because of training, and really, I don't think anyone has the right to judge (unless you are the one holding the clipboard and handing out TSB results). WL have their problems as well and many created by breeding for competitive sport. There is good and bad in every dog, no matter breeding or bloodline. The German Shepherd as a whole does not begin and end with a BSZS courage test, nor with Schutzund sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As an aside, I always find it funny they run two protection tests at a time. My dogs would probably go over/under/through the partition at the helper and then be excused as having "bad temperaments" or something like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> Yes...and plus its just the same old same old...these threads just get so old already:help:


As these are the nationals, and this is 2013 and this is the state the breed is in, we should be alarmed and hurting feelings should be the least of our concern. 

I do not hate the breed, I don't hate the lines. It's because I LOVE the breed. 

It may be the same old , same old but do we really let them get away with OBVIOUS corruption?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> People! I'm realizing a problem here. Everyone keeps talking about the "training". Training has nothing to do with it. Look at the dogs! I don't care what line it's from. The point of these surveys and tests was to evaluate DOGS not training. If that's all you can see then stop arguing things you know nothing about.


I agree but to a point. Some of the training I have seen is just not fair for ANY dog of ANY line and even a young WL female would probably look clueless for this test if they'd received the same "training" (see how quickly some come off the sleeve and are hopelessly distracted by the handler?). I don't think a dog needs to be Superdog (meaning it receives a few weeks of very harsh training to get an out but then is expected to just go out and perform superbly because of the dog it is and no real training at all) just to move on for a show title. The point of the survey is not to showcase a completely green dog nor to prove that a dog who has had zero foundation and a few weeks or months of entirely aversive training can outperform all the other dogs.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I see a bunch of dogs, some need training, some need a different sport, and others well... 

In this forum however I see a lot of sharpness, fearful aggression, and very low threshold combined with possibly weak nerves 

Get over it people, there will be good and bad dogs in every showing. And IMO if you can't or don't feel comfortable producing videos of YOU working YOUR dog to be judged by a bunch of strangers on an internet forum you might want to go spend more time with your dog and less time on the web... 

To quote someone much smarter than me:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

- Theodore Roosevelt


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I see a bunch of dogs, some need training, some need a different sport, and others well...
> 
> In this forum however I see a lot of sharpness, fearful aggression, and very low threshold combined with possibly weak nerves
> 
> Get over it people, there will be good and bad dogs in every showing. And IMO if you can't or don't feel comfortable producing videos of YOU working YOUR dog to be judged by a bunch of strangers on an internet forum you might want to go spend more time with your dog and less time on the web...


This. Its exactly why I will post a bunch of videos of my happy go lucky WL puppy working, but none of my less confident and weaker nerved SL/WL male. Because its people like this who just sit behind a computer screen and bash consistently. 

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> This. Its exactly why I will post a bunch of videos of my happy go lucky WL puppy working, but none of my less confident and weaker nerved SL/WL male. Because its people like this who just sit behind a computer screen and bash consistently.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


People like "this" work their dogs just as much as you do even without having access to a great club like yours and people like "this" have actually complimented you on your work with your weaker nerved dog but you are NOT taking your weak nerved dog and will reproduce with him for profit. You would not take a dog to a national event like that because "people like this" (and it's obvious you mean me) believe that you have the INTEGRITY not to. 

So much about "people like this" consistently bashing!


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I would say no, I would not breed the dog. I push for titles because I believe you can learn a lot about your dog in the process. Not because I think that just because a dog achieved them does it magically make a dog breed worthy. One of the weakest nerved dogs I have worked runs a schH routine beautifully. That doesn't change who the dog is. From working and training the dog the breeder can see who the dog is. Then the ball is in their court to make the *ETHICAL *decision to breed or not. As we can all see, there are many parts to this puzzle.
> 
> This thread has shown me that many people have no clue what they see when they are watching a dog perform. It shouldn't bother me, but it does when they make certain arguments.


I'm the only one who said anything in defense, and because it was an attack at showlines I was only looking at hips, which didn't look angled. So if barbed comments are going to be snakily made, don't be coy. Additionally once it was clarified, I went back and changed what I said. So again- you are already hiding behind a computer, might as well drop the coy crap. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

it is NOT an attack on the Showlines... it's sad that only a few are capable to actually understand what I was saying to begin with.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I was only looking at hips, which didn't look angled


Hips aren't angled. You may want to do a bit more studying on how dogs are put together (and no, this is not meant to be snarky).


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> People like "this" work their dogs just as much as you do even without having access to a great club like yours and people like "this" have actually complimented you on your work with your weaker nerved dog but you are NOT taking your weak nerved dog and will reproduce with him for profit. You would not take a dog to a national event like that because "people like this" (and it's obvious you mean me) believe that you have the INTEGRITY not to.
> 
> So much about "people like this" consistently bashing!


And if you had no idea who I was or what agenda I had with my dog and you saw us out there, you're saying you wouldn't have some sort of opinion similar to the one you started this thread with? So many judgemental people in this sport..Makes me seriously lose hope.


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## VSGSD (Apr 4, 2006)

TSB of the males: 



 
Some strong, some not, even a handsome dark sable boy at the 20 min mark...although I do not think he was in the mood to listen that day, gave his handler a little grin before going with his own agenda!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The shame needs to be placed on the system. Passing dogs that are clearly undeserving is of no fault but the judges who passed the dogs. The judge gave the passing score to allow that dog to be bred. 

Ive been told before that my title was a "gift". By a spectator with no IPO titles, nonetheless. If IPO were really a breed test, then no gifts should be given. I didn't ask for any "gifts", and if thats how the judge really felt, then thats on them. But I know **** well that I've put way to much into this to be given any freebies. 

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> And if you had no idea who I was or what agenda I had with my dog and you saw us out there, you're saying you wouldn't have some sort of opinion similar to the one you started this thread with? So many judgemental people in this sport..Makes me seriously lose hope.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Are you not judging right now? There are judgmental people on both sides. 

One would have to be blind not to see that you are a talented handler so no, I would not judge you and I am hyperaware of my very own shortcomings as a handler and will tell you pointblank what they are because I'm not afraid to point them out either.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> *The shame needs to be placed on the system. *Passing dogs that are clearly undeserving is of no fault but the judges who passed the dogs. The judge gave the passing score to allow that dog to be bred.
> 
> Ive been told before that my title was a "gift". By a spectator with no IPO titles, nonetheless. If IPO were really a breed test, then no gifts should be given. I didn't ask for any "gifts", and if thats how the judge really felt, then thats on them. But I know **** well that I've put way to much into this to be given any freebies.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's what I am doing. I blame the people, greed and entire machinery behind the breed. It's greed and profit that is thriving it and ruining the breed.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Some people dabble in everything not to be proficient in anything.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

erfunhouse said:


> Well, that's not what they are doing, so that's not what you can judge. Like I said- why bash show breeds? Not the dogs fault. Blame the breeder/trainer/judges. Not the breeds fault. This is a completely inflammatory post. Rather shameful.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm still reading but I agree. Even if they rr hideous or whatever they're being called, it's all a matter or perception. 

Whatever someone says is a fault I can turn into a quality. 

But even if that wasn't the case, even if they were truly bad with no excuses to be made, there are so many people that love and have these dogs. Who are you to say that they're wrong and these dogs don't deserve to be loved?

Yes, we already know that your dog will take hits and not let go off the sleeve. Congratulations, want a medal?
Are you posting this so you can once again talk about her and go on about how superior she is to all these hideous dogs?

As some smart person said, don't compare to those under you, compare to those above you. And then yours might be called hideous by some too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Courtney said:


> Some people dabble in everything not to be proficient in anything.


Maybe they have fun doing so.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> That's what I am doing. I blame the people, greed and entire machinery behind the breed. It's greed and profit that is thriving it and ruining the breed.


How am I being judgemental? If you were trying to blame the system then you dont start a thread off by bashing showlines. Two different things there..sarcasm or not.

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lalachka said:


> I'm still reading but I agree. Even if they rr hideous or whatever they're being called, it's all a matter or perception.
> 
> Whatever someone says is a fault I can turn into a quality.
> 
> ...


No, I do not. Have I mentioned her with one word in this topic? Or any of my dogs for that matter? 
But since you brought it up I am the first one to point out that in fact, compared to the standard, I have an ugly, not so nice looking dog. But she can work! To some she may be even hideous but I do not care if she's called hideous because in fact, she ain't pretty. 

Everyone is like "Oooh she's so pretty" and I'm like "No, she's not!" and I mean it. She's not pretty. So yeah... kinda sucks that you can't even use that against me, eh?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> This. Its exactly why I will post a bunch of videos of my happy go lucky WL puppy working, but none of my less confident and weaker nerved SL/WL male. Because its people like this who just sit behind a computer screen and bash consistently.


I post videos of my nutjob fearful GSD mix all the time, but he's a mix and neutered so nobody cares.

If I had a SL, I wouldn't post videos either, or at least I'd be extra careful to only put up the ones where he looked good. Because you're right, it's way too much hostility.

And that's really sad because it means the only visual examples that many people see are ones like this.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have 195 YouTube videos, the majority are my crappy showline dog, lol. Many of them ARENT good/perfect because my point in sharing them is that I get advice from people that aren't always close enough to train with me all the time. It's really not that scary. I can't say I get tons of unsolicited advice from people who just want to bash show lines...I usually get the advice or reassurance I need from the people I'm seeking advice from.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I have 195 YouTube videos, the majority are my crappy showline dog, lol. Many of them ARENT good/perfect because my point in sharing them is that I get advice from people that aren't always close enough to train with me all the time. It's really not that scary. I can't say I get tons of unsolicited advice from people who just want to bash show lines...I usually get the advice or reassurance I need from the people I'm seeking advice from.


I never bashed your dog and I don't will because he's the kind of dog anyone could be proud of. A good dog is a good dog, no matter what lines he's coming from and a dog wouldn't achieve all these things and excel on top if it wasn't a good dog with a good and devoted handler.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Omg! Enough already!

You want to know how you change the breed. You take your version of perfect dog... And you train it, go out and let people see it, friends, family, etc. then when they all want a dog like yours you tell them where to find one. Your breeder or people you know producing dogs like yours. 

Change doesn't happen by focussing on the issues, it happens by focussing on the solution. Consumers drive the market, when the consumers demand a better product or different product that is what will be produced. There is only money in this because people are buying the puppies! 

I do see more working line dogs than ever now, I also have met some nice show dogs. Now I don't think they were VA-1 or whatever but they were black and red and nice stable family dogs. Showing extremes of anything and ranting is not going to change a darn thing. Leading by example and education the general public is. And when I say educating I don't mean trying to preach your beliefs, I mean understanding their desires and helping them to the best possible solution. 

German Shepherds are not one type. There are several different types now. For good reason too, it's the world we live in. The job these dogs do most now is not ultimate utility dog, it's family companion. That title means a lot of different things to different people. So go find the type you enjoy based on what you enjoy to do and expect from your dog, even what you would prefer it look like! Encourage people to pick a responsible breeder from the type they choose and be happy!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This thread isn't really about "bashing" showlines, even though Mrs. K said that she was, I think that was merely a sarcastic inside joke.

What's really being bashed here is the system. Corruption, nepotism, ego, money and greed. It's not the dogs' fault, they are just pawns in the whole scheme.

I didn't watch the video, but I've seen others that show ill-prepared, poorly trained dogs that are not really cut out for Schutzhund. The problem is, this is supposed to be the "best of the best"... and yes, it's a sad state of affairs when the dogs that are supposed to be "cream of the crop", the highest-rated show dogs, perform poorly. 

It's not about bashing dogs or bloodlines. It's about the system that allows this kind of thing to go on. The dogs are innocent, they have no idea what their breeding is and have no control over it.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you really not see how it is hard to figure out when you start with 

... I'm going to hurt feelings and bash Showlines! Ban me if you want but this is unacceptable and destroying our breed so who cares if someones feelings are hurt over *THE TRUTH*!!!!

then ...

it is NOT an attack on the Showlines... it's sad that only a few are capable to actually understand what I was saying to begin with.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I feel like Nikon is in a slightly different (but still good and important) category because he has solid nerves. So he's a great counterexample to all the people who say "oh but SLs are low-drive chicken dogs who can't do anything" (and therefore, IMO, extremely valuable as an example for newbies who come to the board and get talked out of SLs when that might well be a better fit for their needs), but he doesn't, as far as I can tell, have the vulnerability of actually _being_ a softer or weaker-nerved dog.

If you actually do happen to have a SL who could even conceivably be interpreted as showing fear or hesitation in the video, welp, I think you would have to be a very brave person indeed to post that clip on this board. Because then suddenly your dog isn't just your dog, it's a living indictment of the entire line and fodder for people's agendas.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrs.K....you seem hostile and upset lately.....maybe you should take a break from the forum/internets for a while....I'm not trying to be snarky, just thinking maybe you shoud take a chill pill, relax, and enjoy life....I only make this comment (haven't read the whole thread yet), because you've been making some semi-angry posts lately and seem very dooms-day about everything....hope whatever is getting to you abates soon. :-(


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> No, I do not. Have I mentioned her with one word in this topic? Or any of my dogs for that matter?
> But since you brought it up I am the first one to point out that in fact, compared to the standard, I have an ugly, not so nice looking dog. But she can work! To some she may be even hideous but I do not care if she's called hideous because in fact, she ain't pretty.
> 
> Everyone is like "Oooh she's so pretty" and I'm like "No, she's not!" and I mean it. She's not pretty. So yeah... kinda sucks that you can't even use that against me, eh?


Nope, didnt mention her by name but did try opening the door by saying something like 'if these dogs were hit by a bamboo stick and a helper ran towards them.,,'. The convo didn't go the right way for you to bring her up. 

And now since you did bring her up. So uu have a dog that might be better than some (again, all a matter of perception). So? You and millions others. How is that your achievement or anything to be proud of?

Are uu saying you have better taste than others?

I don't get it, the bashing of not even single dogs but an entire line. Similar to racism. It's very intelligent to assume an entire line is bad because you saw 100 or 1000 bad dogs. 

As far as you saying that your dog is ugly and that's supposed to give you the right to bash others?
Nope. Going by everything you've said to you performance goes before looks, so you're OK with an ugly dog as long as it performs. So you're still proud of her, just for something that weighs more in your opinion. 



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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

You should go back to Germany and start kicking these judges in the head, give them the "WHAT THE **** ARE YOU THINKING" in your best German mad voice.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Holy WA!!! #1240 at the 24 mark. NICE dog!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lalachka said:


> *Nope, didnt mention her by name but did try opening the door by saying something like 'if these dogs were hit by a bamboo stick and a helper ran towards them.,,'. The convo didn't go the right way for you to bring her up. *
> 
> And now since you did bring her up. So uu have a dog that might be better than some (again, all a matter of perception). So? You and millions others. How is that your achievement or anything to be proud of?
> 
> ...



You have got to be kidding me :rofl: it's SCHUTZHUND(!) ... not going into it. Not giving you the platform.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> You have got to be kidding me :rofl: it's SCHUTZHUND(!) ... not going into it. Not giving you the platform.


I'm done with this thread anyway, I said all I wanted. 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Holy WA!!! #1240 at the 24 mark. NICE dog!


Saw him too. 

Not so impressed with the sable that was mentioned though.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I don't get it, the bashing of not even single dogs but an entire line. Similar to racism. It's very intelligent to assume an entire line is bad because you saw 100 or 1000 bad dogs.


Racism? Really?  

Again, she's not really bashing the DOGS. She's bashing the system.

I know the opening line of her post said she was bashing showlines, but I wish there was a sarcasm font so that people don't take everything so literally.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Racism? Really?
> 
> Again, she's not really bashing the DOGS. She's bashing the system.
> 
> I know the opening line of her post said she was bashing showlines, but I wish there was a sarcasm font so that people don't take everything so literally.


 
Honeslty after reading the entire thread it should have been about dogs but it seems like the idea was to throw in a bunch of jabs at SL to get more angry and more reponses.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

But as you say .. it IS written word and very difficult to infuse with emotion. That simply means more care should be taken in word choice .. not less. Because it's pretty harsh when put so bluntly .. particularly without any disclaimers whatsoever. Backtracking later doesn't really counter the initial face slap (I don't have a SL) to anyone reading.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Galathiel said:


> But as you say .. it IS written word and very difficult to infuse with emotion. That simply means more care should be taken in word choice .. not less. Because it's pretty harsh when put so bluntly .. particularly without any disclaimers whatsoever. Backtracking later doesn't really counter the initial face slap (I don't have a SL) to anyone reading.


Not backtracking. Simply an "inside" joke and sarcastic response to something that was going on yesterday and I'm not going to apologize for it either!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

An inside joke on a public forum, and then you dont understand why people don't read right through your sarcasm?

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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> An inside joke on a public forum, and then you dont understand why people don't read right through your sarcasm?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah how is someone who is new to the forum or not aware of your "joke" supposed to know? 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> An inside joke on a public forum, and then you dont understand why people don't read right through your sarcasm?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, you know what they say about Germans, right?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Merciel;[URL="javascript:void(0)" said:


> 4161442[/URL]]If you actually do happen to have a SL who could even conceivably be interpreted as showing fear or hesitation in the video, welp, I think you would have to be a very brave person indeed to post that clip on this board. Because then suddenly your dog isn't just your dog, it's a living indictment of the entire line and fodder for people's agendas.


I don't know about that. I have a puppy mill dog- worse off than all of those "terrible" showline people. Yeah, I gave money to a pet store for my girl. Yet I have 217 youtube videos and post regularly to the forum. I've never had anyone shame me for her roots, or her extremely faded coat, or her crappy wore down teeth, or the fact that she'd show almost no interest at all (if not fear and retreat) if a bad guy came at us aggressively, or any of the many other things...

I don't think it takes bravery. I think it simply takes getting out there, working the dog, and trying to overcome the cards you've been dealt to make something of it.

BYBs and Puppy Mills are absolutely bashed more so than highline dogs. Doesn't stop me from working her, and posting videos. I don't think bravery has anything to do with it. A desire to work, bond, train, enjoy, and live with my dog- that's what keeps me going and posting videos.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> This. Its exactly why I will post a bunch of videos of my happy go lucky WL puppy working, but none of my less confident and weaker nerved SL/WL male. Because its people like this who just sit behind a computer screen and bash consistently.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've read up to this point. I think some of you are taking this as a "bashing showlines and dogs" thread....I understand...the line in the subject about line bashing and being kicked off the forum would lead to that conclusion...*if you stopped reading there*....but if you watch the video, read the comments by Mrs.K and others....they are talking about the *big picture* here...low standards, bad-rushed training (in some opinions), corrupt judges/handlers/breeders, focusing on the almighty dollar and ego, rather than the betterment of the breed, etc....and all this leading to breeding a dog with a "national title" that shouldn't (in some opinions) be bred at all. Now you are inundating the breeding lines with dogs that have not shown stellar temperaments, nerve, solidity, etc....Yeah, it could be the training, it is probably everything. I can't speak towards the "look, temperament, etc" of the dogs, I am new at reading dog's language during bitework. But even my amateur eye can see that at the very minimum....this isn't stellar work.

I get that people don't like dog's being talked about in "harsh" lights...but this isn't about the dog, in a sense of hurting it's "feelings" by saying it is terrible at bitework. The dog doesn't care if it's terrible at bitework, or what we think of it's grip/confidence/nerve etc....the point is, these dogs are supposed to be, as Mrs.K put it....the best of the best....dogs that will be bred and bragged up as "national competing" dogs....and if someone just takes that at face-value, and never watches the actual work...well....it's the reason people like me are so intimidated when looking to buy a new puppy...how do you trust ANYONE lol.

And I do think this is an absolute relevant topic....it's the national competition, of this year....it's the current "best of the best" that will be continuing on the GSD lines....it *should* be critiqued and talked about...imo.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I think along with, money, corruption, greed, and ego...is this ridiculous fear of hurting people's feelings, especially the "wrong" people....We live in a world of ever-increasing sensitivity and political-correctedness (word?). A lot of people can't handle being told their dog isn't that great, or cut out for everything a GSD should be cut out for. I also think the "well I can make a quality you deem bad, seem great"....really?? That's great for the feel-good stuff....but when we are talking about breeding a dog, continuing the lines, and looking at what the breed will be 7 generations down....I don't care what qualities you can turn around to "seem" good. I care about the standard, nerve, balance, etc....I can't speak to actually seeing that very well yet (unless in obvious situations)...but I am learning and trust people who have been working their dogs for years and years....decades even. And breeding them as well.

Merciel, I disagree that someone posting a SL working dog video would get bashed. Now, I can see if they want to breed their dog, they will probably get some pretty strong critiques(as will anyone). But if you post a video, of training any dog, and just want advice on working on the grip, positioning the dog, etc...I think you'd get a lot of helpful advice. imho


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wildo said:


> I don't know about that. I have a puppy mill dog- worse off than all of those "terrible" showline people. Yeah, I gave money to a pet store for my girl. Yet I have 217 youtube videos and post regularly to the forum. I've never had anyone shame me for her roots, or her extremely faded coat, or her crappy wore down teeth, or the fact that she'd show almost no interest at all (if not fear and retreat) if a bad guy came at us aggressively, or any of the many other things...
> 
> I don't think it takes bravery. I think it simply takes getting out there, working the dog, and trying to overcome the cards you've been dealt to make something of it.
> 
> BYBs and Puppy Mills are absolutely bashed more so than highline dogs. Doesn't stop me from working her, and posting videos. I don't think bravery has anything to do with it. A desire to work, bond, train, enjoy, and live with my dog- that's what keeps me going and posting videos.


Again, though, it's a slightly different situation, because presumably you aren't advocating that other people go out there and buy pet store dogs. It's not really open to dispute that most products of puppy mills are "lesser" dogs, so nobody's going to bash your dog for not starting out on the same footing as theirs; instead you're likely to get messages of encouragement and support for overcoming those odds to do something legitimately awesome with your dog.

I'm in more or less the same boat with Pongu. He has _loads_ of problems. We go out there and do what we can anyway, while recognizing our limitations. Nobody criticizes him for being a fear-addled nutcase, because the people who produced him were not trying to produce a good dog, and I've never tried to argue that he is. The fact that he's handicapped by his temperament problems is isolated to Pongu; it's not an indictment of an entire line of dogs. He doesn't even _have_ a line.

But people who have and love SLs and want them to be on more-equal footing with WLs in terms of how they're perceived on this board _do_ have to process that concern on some level. If they put up videos that show their dogs in a lesser light, and that can be taken as "proof" that SLs inherently suck at the job across the board, that's an issue.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Mrs.K said:


> ... ...........Ban me if you want ...........


 
Your wish is our command. ADMIN Lisa


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