# Where did you get your first dog?



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I am a part of another forum that is currently harassing someone for getting their first GSD from a BYB. I know that this is the case for many people who don't know what to look for in a reputable breeder, and I was wondering how many people actually knew better at the time that they got their first dog.

I got the majority of my childhood dogs from the local humane society. But I'll be honest, my first PB dog was my Beagle, Freckles, and I think I was about 12 when I picked her out of a BYB's litter. I clearly didn't know any better at that age, and neither did my mother. I bought Freckles with my own money, and she has turned out to be an absolutely fantastic dog. 

So how many of us made that mistake the first time? I would never think to bash someone for making that decision, but I would instead, educate the person for the future. I think there are a lot of people out there who are ashamed once they realize that their dog is from a BYB, and don't speak up about it. But the truth is, as long as you have learned from your mistake and you love your dog, what's done is done. 

I truly hate when someone is criticized about "supporting" a BYB when they got their first dog, before they were properly educated about what a good breeder really is. It's our job as breed ambassadors to properly educate others about what to look for in a good breeder. 

I'm just curious to know if it's happened to as many people as I thought. SOOOO...where was your first dog from?


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Growing up and my first few dogs (which we still have) were bought from pet stores. I didn't know any better. So then when I got my first GSD I thought I was doing the right thing by going with a breeder...but it turned out to be a glorified BYB. So my last puppy was bought from a reputable breeder. This wasn't last puppy. From here on, I will be going the rescue route...but obviously not for quite a few years!!


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

My first dog is Pookie, the papillon. She is most definitely from a BYB and I didn't know any better, but she is very smart, healthy, and an awesome girl.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

My first GSD was bought in pittsburgh from a BYB and lived to be 19.... he was a black and silver and was a pup from a retired police dog If my memory serves me right. The only reason we had to put him to sleep was, he was chewing his back leg off because of a tumor on it. The vet couldnt believe it, nor could we..He did everything by the sense of his nose. We had no clue of that, you coudlnt tell. So BYB are not always the end of the world.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Befor my current dog, all my dogs came from shelters. My current dog came from a BYB. I didn't know any better at the time and will not do it again. I will at least say that my "breeder" emails me everymonth to check on the puppy and makes everyone sign a spay neuter contract. I wouldn't trade my girl for anything! Even my schutzhund club is impressed with her. She is a well balanced dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My first GSD was bought on a dairy farm. Advertised for $30 in the newspaper(1981) Stomper was a great dog with no papers, we were the first to answer the ad and he was the only black male in the litter of B&T's. 
He was probably sired by the neighbors lab? But he looked & acted GSD. 

I rescued my next dog Clover for $30 and then my DH bought a pup for $250 without my knowledge(Onyx) from a first time breeder who didn't have the pedigree paperwork in order, or health tests, when she bred her female. She is not one that I'd ever support or consider to buy from had it been my decision. 
I will not ever support a breeder who doesn't health test or have pedigree info again....Onyx is a dog that needs careful management. I would have loved to train her in sport, but she's too reactive. Also suffers from environmental allergies. BUT, she has great hips and her teeth are perfect.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All of my dogs growing up came directly from the street...all strays. When I went out on my own all of them were strays up until the three I have now. The first/oldest one came from a animal shelter--I was her third owner and she has done fine with me. The second oldest is the golden retriever that I got from a breeder, he came with his papers and all, but they would still be considered byb's to most. My youngest is a 6 month old german shepherd that I got from a add on craigslist. She is the product of two guard dogs. In saying all of that I would go back and get dogs from both of these people again. My dogs are healthy, happy, not aggressive, very loveable, and well behaved...so I ask what is the problem with BYB's? I'm almost offended that someone would walk away from a litter of pups no matter where they are from. It is not the dogs fault and if you gave me the choice between a $1000.00 dog and what I got..I would take mine in a heart beat. but I do respect the decisions of others(even if I don't agree)!!


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm not sure how to answer this because it depends how you define a BYB.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> I'm not sure how to answer this because it depends how you define a BYB.


I think it would be a "breeder" that doesn't do the health checks, exams, etc on the parents or the accidental litter, etc.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

My family's dog when I was a kid was from a friend of the family whose "Cockapoo" had an "oops" litter. I don't know if that counts as where I got my dog, since my family got her a year before I was born. 
We got a second dog when I was 2nd grade or so, we took in my grandmother's senior dog when she passed away That poor dog pretty much got passed around to everyone in the family before ending up with us, no one else wanted him because he was not very good tempered, had no training at all and would have accidents in the house.

My own first dog was a stray I rescued, tried to find the owner but was unable so I ended up keeping her. That's how I got my second dog too.

My first GSD I found through an ad on Pedigree Database and got from her previous owner, who got her as a puppy from good lines, as a breeding/Sch prospect. Not from a BYB, they did health testing, exams, titling etc (although some buyers have had problems with them...) She was also OFA'd but she ended up getting pyometra and had to be spayed, so they were looking for a "pet" home for her.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

The spca...George was a purebred gsd. The only male in a litter of 6. He was 7 wks old and apparently a breeder had dropped them off because they had kennel cough. I could not have his reg. Papers because they did not want me to breed him..lol. I certainly question the kennel cough story, but not to look a gift horse in the mouth I paid my 32$ and left with my first best friend who lived 12 yrs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I think it would be a "breeder" that doesn't do the health checks, exams, etc on the parents or the accidental litter, etc.


Pretty much.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I ask what is the problem with BYB's? I'm almost offended that someone would walk away from a litter of pups no matter where they are from. It is not the dogs fault and if you gave me the choice between a $1000.00 dog and what I got..I would take mine in a heart beat. but I do respect the decisions of others(even if I don't agree)!!


The problem is supporting a breeder who doesn't breed for the dogs, but for themselves(regardless of the breed) To support a breeder that takes shortcuts and doesn't look at pedigree match is just adding to the cycle of shelters being overfilled, because usually they will sell to anyone showing them the $ and not making sure what they are producing are going to responsible owners. If they did at least that, and would take a dog back for whatever reason, instead of letting it be dumped after the cute puppy stage wore off, it may or may not make a difference.
There should be some accountability to what they are producing health and temperament wise, especially for dogs that are bred to carry some aggression in their make-up. In placing as well/GSDs aren't for just any one.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I never knew that there was a difference between BYB and good breeders.
You put two dogs together, you get puppies! Voila! 

That said, my first two dogs were from the shelter (Keeta is only my second dog). I did not want to support anyone that bred dogs, since so many ended up unwanted and in a shelter (the lucky ones. The unlucky ones were PTS or spend a lifetime chained to a dog house). 
At that time, had my heart been set on a GSD, I would have picked up a paper and picked one based on price (that is how much I knew about BYB vs. Good Breeding). 

The turning point for me was joining our SchH club with Keeta. That was my first exposure to dogs from good breeding. I also joined this forum because it had an active Schutzhund section, and became an avid forum reader and participant. Learning about these dogs, about what goes into their breeding, seeing these dogs, working with them, getting to know them in person at club, really opened my eyes and my understanding to the world of difference between a haphazard mating, and focused, knowledgeable, experienced, ethical breeding practices. 

So for my first GSD, I studied and read and discussed and researched for a couple of years before I felt confident that I was able to find an ethical breeder that would meet my needs and expectations. Before all this, as I said, I would have bought from a BYB, out of the newspaper, because I really would not have known any better. 

No one looks down on people's dogs from BYB's: All dogs are special and deserve a good, loving home. Not everyone may be lucky enough to have the kind of exporsure to GSDs I had before deciding to buy one, and without that exposure, how can they understand the impact of their decision? The important thing is that wherever they got their dog from, that this dog be raised with love. I would venture to guess that 99% of the dogs on this forum are loved to bits, and the owners are doing the best they can to be the best possible owners they can be. 

What is annoying discouraging is when people come on the forum asking for help and advice, but then still go ahead and get a BYB dog, because they don't want to spend the money on a well bred dog, or make other rationalization about their decision. Here you have a forum full of experienced people giving good advice, and all for nothing.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I think it would be a "breeder" that doesn't do the health checks, exams, etc on the parents or the accidental litter, etc.


If this is how you define it then my first dog (the first dog that is solely my responsibility to care and pay for) came from a breeder. They had hip and elbow checks, the pups had been to the vet several times, they were socialized. However, I wouldn't say he was the most knowledgeable breeder or anything. She is relatively healthy (some allergies and stomach issues, but she is a GSD.) In my opinion, this is still a BYB, but a good BYB. Her bloodlines probably aren't the greatest but she is a great dog. 

I just the second dog that is solely my responsibility and he came from a similar breeder (health checks and so forth) but the breeder seems to be a bit less knowledgeable. She also gave him to a pet store (where we got him from) which makes me not trust her (in her defense the store doesn't buy from mills and she suffered a tragedy in her life and could not find a home for him.) I am 100% against puppy mills-- not so much against people with good dogs who have them health checked and breed them (as long as they also provide healthcare for the pups and take responsibility for finding the pups a good home---unlike what my second pups breeder did.)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> I never knew that there was a difference between BYB and good breeders.
> You put two dogs together, you get puppies! Voila!


I prefer to purchase from somebody who puts a bit more thought into the process, but that's just me. 

My first dog is from somebody who bred convenient bitch A with convenient dog B and sold the resulting offspring to anyone who saw their ad in the paper and came up with $300 cash. He's a sweet, soft bag of nerves who's afraid of anything and everything and though I love him; his fear has made his life a lot harder than it needed to be. 

I love my dog, but someone who breeds like this is a plain crappy breeder. Even worse is someone who lies: "Oh, we're not breeders; our two purebred AKC registered dogs just had puppies". . . and then a month or two later their OTHER AKC registered female is pregnant by the same male. . . every few months like clockwork.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I am a part of another forum that is currently harassing someone for getting their first GSD from a BYB. I know that this is the case for many people who don't know what to look for in a reputable breeder, and I was wondering how many people actually knew better at the time that they got their first dog.
> 
> I'm just curious to know if it's happened to as many people as I thought. SOOOO...where was your first dog from?


My first dog was a free dog from the local newspaper. Akita/White Shepherd mix. She had HD and cost me a fortune for the surgery nearly $2000.00 back in the 1980's.. but she lasted until she was 13. What an awesome dog. I researched and got recommendations for my first PB Shepherd. A local SAR group recommended the breeder to me. I think by this forums standards she would be considered a BYB but I love her dogs (I've had 3 so far) and if she decides to do another litter I WILL get another one of her puppies.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Raven is from a BYB. I knew that it felt wrong to be getting her from them but didn't really know why. I had searched all the local shelters and didn't find what I was looking for and sort of happened upon Raven. I lucked out.... she's got a wonderful temperament and no health issues and an iron gut. (KNOCK WOOD)

Kaiser is also technically from a BYB but I got him from the shelter. I was supposed to foster him and ended up keeping him.

Some day I would love to buy from a responsible breeder but I don't love housebreaking and am heavily involved in rescue so I am sure that I will end up with more rescue dogs.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> I never knew that there was a difference between BYB and good breeders.
> You put two dogs together, you get puppies! Voila!
> 
> That said, my first two dogs were from the shelter (Keeta is only my second dog). I did not want to support anyone that bred dogs, since so many ended up unwanted and in a shelter (the lucky ones. The unlucky ones were PTS or spend a lifetime chained to a dog house).
> ...


Well put. After joining a schutzhund club I can now see the differences in lines and what certain drives really are. That being said my BYB puppy has part of a decent pedegree and is a well rounded dog. She will never be a national champion and thats ok with me. She is everything I wanted and more. Now that I know more about the breed though, I will be expecting more out of my next dog.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> No one looks down on people's dogs from BYB's: All dogs are special and deserve a good, loving home. Not everyone may be lucky enough to have the kind of exporsure to GSDs I had before deciding to buy one, and without that exposure, how can they understand the impact of their decision? *The important thing is that wherever they got their dog from, that this dog be raised with love. *


Unfortunately, I have to disagree. The dogs themselves may not be looked down on, but the owner/purchaser of that dog can be torn to shreds by people who see them as "supporting" that BYB. I do strongly agree with the bolded section, and also think that it's really all that matters in the end.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All dogs deserved to be loved, whether they come from the shelter, puppy mills, byb's, or "good breeders". Its a no win situation for the dog, so I guess its up to people...On that note things could also be turned around on good breeders....why do they keep breeding if the world is so over populated with dogs? Is it for the love of the breed? The money? The greed? Yes they might think they are finding a good home for the dog, but they can't control the economy, relationship status', and births of children that somehow take up all of the dogs time. Really everyone is at fault and the only way to solve it would be to stop all breeding until all dogs in the shelters find homes.....wouldn't that be nice if that happened?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Really everyone is at fault and the only way to solve it would be to stop all breeding until all dogs in the shelters find homes.....wouldn't that be nice if that happened?


No, it wouldn't be nice at all. Why would the good breeders, who are trying to do everything right, have to stop because BYBs and puppy mills are producing poorly bred dogs who are typically the purebreds you end up finding in shelters? What would doing this solve? You statement makes no sense to me.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

I've worked in a vet hosp my whole life. It doesn't exactly pay well. That doesn't mean my pets didn't have top notch medical care even when surgerys were required I made small payments out of my checks for years.

My point is, on my income I could never had written a breeder a check for $1200 or more for bloodlines and if that makes me undeserving of being a shepherd owner then I guess that can be your opinion. I have kids and other pets and a situation where bringing an older rescue into my home wouldn't have been a safe option. 

I think people who need byb are fine. Many fine loyal pets are produced that way. 

I was never in a situation where I needed to purchase a dog, but I have dealt with many many expensive champion breeders who did not care about anything but the almighty dollar.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My very first dog that I bought, after growing up and moving away from home, was a sable Sheltie. 

This was WAY before the internet, back in the 70's, when reputable breeders would put ads in the paper. 

I got her from a woman that showed Shelties, and was growing out this puppy to see if she wanted to show her or not. It was "or not", and I bought her.

I have to say though, that I had been going to dog shows since I was 12. I knew if I couldn't find a nice dog in the newspaper, that I could wait until the next local dog show, and go from there.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My first purebred dog was a Rottweiler I got for my 17th birthday. I guess the breeder would be considered a BYB by today's standards, although both parents were OFA certified and I did get AKC papers. 
He ended up being an AKC champion, got a CDX, was OFA Good and got ATTS certified. He came from really good foundation kennels here in the US as well as some great old German kennels. I had a book on Rottweilers and I looked at the pics in the book and looked at him and thought that he was as nice as any in the book. So in a very typical, naive, know it all teenage way I started showing him. I guess since I was a kid, the people in the local Rottweiler club decided to take pity on me and they all helped me out with showing and then with the obedience training. 
He was a great first competition dog, and an all around perfect best friend.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I adopted Massie from a shelter in Greenfield, MA. She was 10 weeks old. I think her adoption fee was $65 and came with a certificate for spaying, a free vet visit and an 8 week obedience class. I couldn't have asked for a better dog! 

My second dog (Chama, a rottie cross or muttweiler) was free, from an oops litter in a rural area of New Mexico. I found her listing in a Pennysaver (I was looking for a rottie or rottie mix and the humane society didn't have any at the time). 

My third dog (Basu) was an AKC registered WGSL from a rescue in WI. My fourth dog (Kai) was from a german shepherd rescue in NY. He was a gsd x acd. 

My fifth dog (Rafi) was listed through a gsd rescue in Ohio. I found him on petfinder. He is a german malinut. My two kittens are currently snuggled up with Rafi on the dog bed. 

I have only ever been looking for a companion dog who enjoys travelling, hiking, xx skiing and snowshoeing, although several of my dogs could have done SAR (Chama or Rafi), agility (Chama or Kai) or other sports or formal OB. 

And I am happy to say that my dogs have convinced other people (who did not know about rescue) to adopt dogs.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

I was driving on a back road one day and saw a sign "German Shepherd puppies". So in I went. Saw parents and spent time with pups. She said she wanted $175. Told her I was interested in the female but would have to come back in morning. Went back next day and the female had been sold. There were 2 males left. One was jumping everywhere and barking up a storm, the other sat quietly next to him staring at me. Left that day with the quiet one. Since that day, Harley has been my best friend, the best dog I could ask for. He has his issues now and then but growing up really never got into much trouble. Wouldn't change a thing. Best $175 I could of spent. He is my world!!!!! I could not spend a lot of money on any dog as I do not have it. Now if I did, then I would probably look at other options, maybe not. I only know I have a darn good dog for what I paid......


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

llombardo said:


> All dogs deserved to be loved, whether they come from the shelter, puppy mills, byb's, or "good breeders". Its a no win situation for the dog, so I guess its up to people...On that note things could also be turned around on good breeders....why do they keep breeding if the world is so over populated with dogs? Is it for the love of the breed? The money? The greed? Yes they might think they are finding a good home for the dog, but they can't control the economy, relationship status', and births of children that somehow take up all of the dogs time. Really everyone is at fault and the only way to solve it would be to stop all breeding until all dogs in the shelters find homes.....wouldn't that be nice if that happened?


No.

There are millions of dogs in this country, but precious few German Shepherds with solid nerves, appropriate drives, and good health.

If the good breeders stopped breeding, we'd be left with sub-par dogs.


All dogs deserve to be loved, but not all breeders deserve to be paid. 

If we don't pay the crappy breeders, the dogs will end up in a situation-- rescue, shelter, or free to good home-- where they can find a loving home without lining the pockets of crappy breeders.

Breeding is one of those things where you can utterly suck at what you do and put out an inferior product and make even more money than someone who does it well.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Castlemaid said:
> 
> 
> > I never knew that there was a difference between BYB and good breeders.
> ...


Sorry if I wasn't clear - that _used _ to be the level of my knowledge about breeding - my understanding has evolved a bit since then.  
(Sometimes I think I'm a bit too terse in my writing).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> Sorry if I wasn't clear - that _used _ to be the level of my knowledge about breeding - my understanding has evolved a bit since then.
> (Sometimes I think I'm a bit too terse in my writing).


Gotcha. :thumbup:


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Dakota is my first dog, I got him from a BYB, my ignorant days weren't too long ago. I do know better now.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't believe that only the best dogs should be bred. I do believe that they should have health checks and should have good temperament. Not everybody can afford a champion line GSD and there is nothing wrong with the offspring of healthy well tempered GSDs


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I got Chrono from a BYB. I consider her to be a BYB because I'm pretty sure she was breeding for size and/or color. And although she said she did hip testing and that Chrono's father had excellent hips and his mother had good hips, I could not find the results for Chrono's parents on the OFA website. She may have done hip testing but not OFA, or she might be lying, who knows. I also can't seem to find anything that says Chrono's father was titled in conformation(father was American/Canadian show lines), and I can't find anything that suggests that Chrono's mother had any obedience or schutzhund titles(mother was working lines). He's a good dog though. He doesn't really have a german shepherd temperament, but he's got solid nerves, nice drives, and so far no health issues besides indoor allergies, so I can't complain. 

I feel bad for supporting a BYB, but I try to make up for it by educating people I know who feel like getting a puppy from the classifieds. My next puppy will for sure be from a reputable breeder who is thinking about the future of the breed instead of thinking about how much money they can charge.

I think most people get their first puppy from a BYB because there usually isn't a reputable breeder down the street, and reputable breeders usually aren't advertising their dogs so you have to do some pretty intense searching on your own to find out what a reputable breeder is.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> I feel bad for supporting a BYB, but I try to make up for it by educating people I know who feel like getting a puppy from the classifieds. My next puppy will for sure be from a reputable breeder who is thinking about the future of the breed instead of thinking about how much money they can charge.
> 
> I think most people get their first puppy from a BYB because there usually isn't a reputable breeder down the street, and reputable breeders usually aren't advertising their dogs so you have to do some pretty intense searching on your own to find out what a reputable breeder is.


Exactly! :thumbup:


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> I don't believe that only the best dogs should be bred. I do believe that they should have health checks and should have good temperament. Not everybody can afford a champion line GSD and there is nothing wrong with the offspring of healthy well tempered GSDs


I totally agree 100%!!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vicky2200 said:


> I don't believe that only the best dogs should be bred. I do believe that they should have health checks and should have good temperament. Not everybody can afford a champion line GSD and there is nothing wrong with the offspring of healthy well tempered GSDs


But how do you know your 2 or 3 year old dog is genetically healthy and structurally sound if you've never done basic health testing? Genetic issues and HD don't always show up by then. How do you know they're good-tempered if they never go outside their social bubble? How do you know they're intelligent and trainable if you don't do much beyond "sit" and "stay" and even that's not very reliable? 

If someone is training their dog, working their dog, getting out and competing in things with their dog, and health testing their dog, more power to them. But the average puppy producer isn't doing this, so neither the buyer nor the seller knows what they're getting. It's a total crapshoot.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> I don't believe that only the best dogs should be bred. I do believe that they should have health checks and should have good temperament. Not everybody can afford a champion line GSD and there is nothing wrong with the offspring of healthy well tempered GSDs


If that's the case, then I believe people such as yourself should be looking into rescuing a dog from a breed specific rescue group, or adopting from a shelter. 

You have no idea what you are getting from a BYB who barely health tests or temperament tests their own dogs. You don't know what could be lying a generation or two back that can affect your puppy. You can't take a BYB for their "word" if they are just producing puppies for money.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I looked for a good pup, I didn't look at the champion titled breeders at all. That said, looking at what the breeder had produced in the past was very important. Proof is in the puppies and the owners they chose to show the potential of what they were breeding.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Emoore said:


> But how do you know your 2 or 3 year old dog is genetically healthy and structurally sound if you've never done basic health testing? Genetic issues and HD don't always show up by then. How do you know they're good-tempered if they never go outside their social bubble? How do you know they're intelligent and trainable if you don't do much beyond "sit" and "stay" and even that's not very reliable?
> 
> If someone is training their dog, working their dog, getting out and competing in things with their dog, and health testing their dog, more power to them. But the average puppy producer isn't doing this, so neither the buyer nor the seller knows what they're getting. It's a total crapshoot.


I still have tons to learn. Just curious if everyone that buys from a good breeder and pays top dollar, do they always have success or do things sometimes go wrong? Do they always know what they are getting?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

myshepharley said:


> I still have tons to learn. Just curious if everyone that buys from a good breeder and pays top dollar, do they always have success or do things sometimes go wrong? Do they always know what they are getting?


There is always going to be a random, slight chance of something going wrong, but (IMO) a reputable breeder will make sure that the puppy affected by whatever freak accident can not reproduce and pass it on. I think the best breeders will have limited registration and spay/neuter contracts with the buyers unless they are given proof at 2 years of age that the dog has been properly health tested and titled in some way. Otherwise, there is no need for that animal to reproduce. 

By properly health/temperament testing and working/showing of their breeding stock, the chances of getting any genetic diseases are very limited.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

myshepharley said:


> I still have tons to learn. Just curious if everyone that buys from a good breeder and pays top dollar, do they always have success or do things sometimes go wrong? Do they always know what they are getting?


Nothing is 100% with living animals. But in buying from a breeder who studies bloodlines and understands genetics, who health tests and temperament trials their dogs, you are immensely stacking the deck in your favor. In addition, you often get lifelong breeder support (I still talk to my breeder several times a year) and frequently a warranty. Someone who is a student of the breed and makes it their life's work to study and train and trial and test and improve their breeding will generally produce much better dogs than someone who breeds two random registered dogs together. 

For me, I'm going to be spending the next 12-14 years of my life with this dog. The only bigger commitment I've made than buying a dog was marrying my husband. Heck, I spend more time with my dog than I spend with my husband. Why in the world would I cheap out?


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> There is always going to be a random, slight chance of something going wrong, but (IMO) a reputable breeder will make sure that the puppy affected by whatever freak accident can not reproduce and pass it on. I think the best breeders will have limited registration and spay/neuter contracts with the buyers unless they are given proof at 2 years of age that the dog has been properly health tested and titled in some way. Otherwise, there is no need for that animal to reproduce.
> 
> By properly health/temperament testing and working/showing of their breeding stock, the chances of getting any genetic diseases are very limited.


Thank you. I was just curious. I don't think I would ever breed with my next one, just wandered how you could guarantee.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That and breeders who have passion are so into how their pups are faring. Even after having a few littters with 11/12 pups, it can be daunting, but a good breeder will keep track of how things are going. The internet with fb and other good group pages allow it to happen so conveniently, there is no excuse to not be in contact with the puppy buyers.
I'm even seeing group pages of breeders (that I have no relationship with) pupdates. It is a great way to see their commitment to the buyers.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Sasha is my first dog, that is only mine that is, not a family dog, and I got her from a rescue. I almost bought a puppy out of the newspaper, but before I did I wanted to learn a little more about the breed (wasn't very comfortable with the idea of owning a GSD when I was looking for one) and that's when I learned about BYBs. Then after further consideration I decided I wanted an adult. I am so very happy with her, but moreover I'm very very happy with my rescue. I keep in contact with them, and would definitely consider getting another dog from them.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Also, a good breeder will not allow their dogs to be rehomed or put into shelters without their knowledge. The dog will be returned to the breeder before any of that happens. So they shouldn't really be contributing to the shelter population, in reality.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> If that's the case, then I believe people such as yourself should be looking into rescuing a dog from a breed specific rescue group, or adopting from a shelter.
> 
> You have no idea what you are getting from a BYB who barely health tests or temperament tests their own dogs. You don't know what could be lying a generation or two back that can affect your puppy. You can't take a BYB for their "word" if they are just producing puppies for money.


How do you know what you're getting from a rescue? I'm curious. 
Like I said before, bringing an adult dog, many with issues isn't always feesible. 

I also think just as many health issues and tempermant, aggression, or training problems are equally posted on this site from reputable breeders and byb.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

My first dog was a cocker spaniel I got from the local humane society, then I got a miniature poodle from a backyard breeder, she was raised in the home and I met both parents and she's an awesome dog. I don't agree 100% with all of them, but some of them aren't so bad. My next dog which is a GSD is coming from a CKC excellent background


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> How do you know what you're getting from a rescue? I'm curious.
> Like I said before, bringing an adult dog, many with issues isn't always feesible.
> 
> I also think just as many health issues and tempermant, aggression, or training problems are equally posted on this site from reputable breeders and byb.


I get what you're saying, but in all fairness I think it's more of a game of Russian Roulette as far as what a puppy is going to turn out to be (especially a byb pup) rather than adopting an adult dog from a rescue where they have lived with someone who can tell you want the dog is like. I knew what I was getting when I got Sasha. There weren't many surprises. Her personality was established (she was two) the only thing that changed, for the most part, was her confidence grew leaps and bounds once she realized she was living the good life


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I got my first dog from a breeder. I applied to a local GSD rescue but they didn't have anything meeting the criteria I was looking for (house trained adult with no health issues), however the president of the rescue knew of a dog that had been returned to the breeder so she set me up with the breeder. It wasn't really an "adoption" like a rescue case, the dog was very well cared for her entire life and trained to be a lovely house dog, but I didn't pay for the dog. She was spayed when I agreed to adopt her and I got her when she was 3.5 years old. She has full AKC and UKC registration. I continued with her training and we earned about twelve titles/certs (see sig).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TaZoR said:


> How do you know what you're getting from a rescue?


You talk to the foster home who's been living with the dog for the last month or more and you evaluate the adult dog in question. You take it home for a temp-foster trial period. 


How do you know what you're getting from an 8-week old ball of fluff from completely unknown bloodlines with totally untested, untried parents?


I would happily and willingly adopt an adult dog from a rescue when I could evaluate the dog and talk with its foster family. No way in Hades would I buy a puppy without knowing its lineage, and I don't mean "Oh the parents look good and they haven't bitten anyone and haven't had any major medical issues yet."


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Many people who couldnt afford to pay top dollar for a pup did anything to afford the care their dog needed. At the hosp I worked at I saw people sell cars, and other possessions because their dogs were more important than money. Many arranged a payment plan with us but sold things if their dogs needed chemo or other treatments at the univ of penn.

I also saw people who paid top dollar not want to bother with training or treatments and put their dogs to sleep.

There are no guarantees. A great dog can come from anywhere and no one has the right to call someones dog inferior. I know people who trace their family trees back to royalty and are the biggest classless jerks i ever met.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> How do you know what you're getting from a rescue? I'm curious.
> Like I said before, bringing an adult dog, many with issues isn't always feesible.
> 
> I also think just as many health issues and tempermant, aggression, or training problems are equally posted on this site from reputable breeders and byb.


It depends on what you're looking for. Health wise, you most likely won't know in the long run. But you can get a great understanding of the temperament of the dogs through the rescues themselves having placed the dogs in foster homes. And spay/neuter contracts are almost always necessary.

But again, if you're willing to knowingly take these risks by purchasing a puppy from a BYB, then you are absolutely supporting them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tazor, you're arguing against no-one. 

Nobody's saying that people who buy from BYB are bad people or they don't care for their dogs.

Nobody's saying that people who buy from good breeders are better than people who buy from bybs.

Nobody's calling anybody's dog inferior. Lots of us on this thread who are arguing against bybs *own* byb dogs. 

And the analogy to human bloodlines is just silly. 

All we're saying is that, by going through a quality breeder who pours their heart and soul and passion into producing the best dogs possible, you have a better chance of getting a quality dog than by going to someone who kinda does it on the side like a hobby to make extra money.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Emoore said:


> You talk to the foster home who's been living with the dog for the last month or more and you evaluate the adult dog in question. You take it home for a temp-foster trial period.
> 
> 
> How do you know what you're getting from an 8-week old ball of fluff from completely unknown bloodlines with totally untested, untried parents?
> ...



We have a large boarding facility where I work and have taken care of hundreds of rescues over the years. From somoyeds, labs, pits, st. bernards, and more. We work with rescues of all kinds. Many of these rescues dont have foster homes and board with us for months. They are shown outside on the lawn to prospective families. They ask us how they are with other dogs, and some even asked us to parade them by cat cages to see how they react.

This is common among rescues in this area. It is a nice suburban upper class town. So, I do not agree with the knowledge that you assume to come with all rescues. Im not saying that no onevshould adopt these dogs, but I'm saying if i have small children or small animals it would be a consideration to get a pup i could raise and no one should be judged for that.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

My first dog was a purebred poodle my parents bought for me when I was 9. I have no idea whether she was a reputable breeder or not. The dog was a great little dog, lived to be 15. 

My first dog on my own was a pup I got from the Humane Society for $50. Great dog. Excellent nerves, looking back. 

Next was a yellow lab, just coming out of puppyhood and one of the best, if not the best, dogs I'll ever probably be lucky enough to own. 


This pup was from a reputable breeder who has been there for me anytime I've needed him. I texted him last night at midnight about my pup because he's been sick and he was a great help. He had texted me prior in the evening and had said not to hesitate to get a hold of him if I needed him and I'm glad I believed him.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> This pup was from a reputable breeder who has been there for me anytime I've needed him. I texted him last night at midnight about my pup because he's been sick and he was a great help. He had texted me prior in the evening and had said not to hesitate to get a hold of him if I needed him and I'm glad I believed him.


One of the many benefits of a _reputable _breeder!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TaZoR said:


> We have a large boarding facility where I work and have taken care of hundreds of rescues over the years. From somoyeds, labs, pits, st. bernards, and more. We work with rescues of all kinds. Many of these rescues dont have foster homes and board with us for months. They are shown outside on the lawn to prospective families. They ask us how they are with other dogs, and some even asked us to parade them by cat cages to see how they react..


:shrug: We all go on our own experiences. I think you've had a lousy rescue experience. Mine is with the rescue I've volunteered with for 10 years where the dogs live in private foster homes for a minimum of a month before being adopted.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

My first puppy, and the only one we have now is from a byb. My bf an I were looking for a puppy, he wanted a gsd I wanted a dobie but I said okay to the gsd. I looked for 6 hours online. An yet go figure i was nieve and didn't learn what I should have. It was almost my 19th birthday and I only had 250 to spend. I thought people we nuts to pay over 400 dollars for a dog. We drove 4 hours to get her she was a clearance puppy. The last out of a litter of 9 and she wanted her gone. 
When we first got their she showed us the parents. Her dad in the backyard snarling barking thru the fence, she let her
Mom out to meet us. Brought all the paperwork out to us, we were not allowed inside. She asked us if we wanted to breed, we replied no, and she filled out the akc paperwork and gave us a contract and finally let her out.
She wasn't a pretty thing, and at first I wanted to leave because she wasn't the "saddle back" I wanted. She kept licking the grass. I calle her over and I picked her up. She was skin and bones, full of fleas. So I paid my 250 and we took her home.
Before we left she gave her a final shot of wormer and gave us her shot records. 
The breeder was breeding every heat and she had 2 bitches and 2 sires. 
I've learned my lesson. Some health problems from the get go about 500 worth. And the 480 dollars on training to correct her fear problems. But we love her and im looking forward in a few years when I'm out of college and have a house to get a well
Bred gsd.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> This pup was from a reputable breeder who has been there for me anytime I've needed him. I texted him last night at midnight about my pup because he's been sick and he was a great help. He had texted me prior in the evening and had said not to hesitate to get a hold of him if I needed him and I'm glad I believed him.


My breeder who by some of the standards I've read here would fall as a BYB since she doesn't show or title them. They are UKC rather than AKC. They are actual working SAR dogs. For 9 + years she has been there for any question I might have. I can call/text her at midnight or 5 a.m.  .


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry if I went off the deep end but I saved my pup who was sick from euthansia, I didnt ask any questions besides would you consider letting me take and treat the pups instead. I would assume I own a byb dog.

When I read how byb dogs shouldnt be bred, and only the best lines should be continued....all I hear is blah blah blah, your dog shouldnt exist. If breeders will take back all unwanted dogs, then only people with money will be privy to owning shepherds. 

I love my dog more than anything and will love him throughout any problems he may have. I take it personally because he is perfect and priceless to me regardless of who's blood courses through his veins.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

My experience with rescuing was terrible. I am not saying I am against rescuing or that I never will rescue again but I agree with other people on here; it isn't always a good option. We rescued a German Shepherd. They didn't tell us that he had a megaesophagus that was so bad that NOTHING helped at all. That not even water could stay down. Now, I loved that dog and I wouldn't trade the time I had with him for anything- But sometimes people lie about what you are getting, even from a rescue. I could not rescue now (assuming I wanted another dog) because my alaskan husky does not get along with adult dogs and my other dogs aren't crazy about them either. Yes, I could rescue a puppy, but usually if there is a purebred puppy in a rescue, it's because there is something wrong with them.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> Sorry if I went off the deep end but I saved my pup who was sick from euthansia, I didnt ask any questions besides would you consider letting me take and treat the pups instead. I would assume I own a byb dog.
> 
> When I read how byb dogs shouldnt be bred, and only the best lines should be continued....all I hear is blah blah blah, your dog shouldnt exist. If breeders will take back all unwanted dogs, then only people with money will be privy to owning shepherds.
> 
> I love my dog more than anything and will love him throughout any problems he may have. I take it personally because he is perfect and priceless to me regardless of who's blood courses through his veins.



No one is trying to personally offend you. I also rescued my GSD from someone that I could consider a BYB because of the horrid conditions he was kept in. I love him to death and would kill or be killed for him. I'm sure you feel the same way about your dog.

I started this thread because I wanted to know how many people had to learn through experience about what a good breeder actually is, and how many of us unknowingly purchased a BYB dog before we did know any better. Not to criticize anyone's pets. I think the moral of the story is that the public needs to be educated more often about the importance of finding good, reputable breeders so that they don't resort to supporting BYB's - be it by accident or on purpose.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> My experience with rescuing was terrible. I am not saying I am against rescuing or that I never will rescue again but I agree with other people on here; it isn't always a good option. We rescued a German Shepherd. They didn't tell us that he had a megaesophagus that was so bad that NOTHING helped at all. That not even water could stay down. Now, I loved that dog and I wouldn't trade the time I had with him for anything- But sometimes people lie about what you are getting, even from a rescue. I could not rescue now (assuming I wanted another dog) because my alaskan husky does not get along with adult dogs and my other dogs aren't crazy about them either. Yes, I could rescue a puppy, but usually if there is a purebred puppy in a rescue, it's because there is something wrong with them.


I find that entire statement a little fishy...If the dog had a medical issue that prevented it from eating/drinking, then how was it alive long enough to even make it to a rescue/be adopted out?

And not every puppy in a rescue has a problem. I honestly don't really understand where that statement came from..


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I think the moral of the story is that the public needs to be educated more often about the importance of finding good, reputable breeders so that they don't resort to supporting BYB's - be it by accident or on purpose.


I guess it all depends on your definition of what is a BYB. Cause I wouldn't hesitate to support or buy another dog from where I got my dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TaZoR said:


> Sorry if I went off the deep end but I saved my pup who was sick from euthansia, I didnt ask any questions besides would you consider letting me take and treat the pups instead. I would assume I own a byb dog.
> 
> When I read how byb dogs shouldnt be bred, and only the best lines should be continued....all I hear is blah blah blah, your dog shouldnt exist. If breeders will take back all unwanted dogs, then only people with money will be privy to owning shepherds.
> 
> I love my dog more than anything and will love him throughout any problems he may have. I take it personally because he is perfect and priceless to me regardless of who's blood courses through his veins.


Nobody's saying your dog is inferior or shouldn't exist. We _are_ saying it would be better if you didn't breed him, since you don't know his family history or genetics.  

I'm curious, do you think somebody so irresponsible that they would dump an entire litter off to be euthanized because they didn't want to bother nursing them through illness, is someone who should be breeding? Do you think people should be out there doing that? Should they profit from their endeavors and charge people money for their ill-considered litters? 

You rescued your dog and that's an awesome thing; but that doesn't mean his "breeder" needs to be breeding and profiting from it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I guess it all depends on your definition of what is a BYB. Cause I wouldn't hesitate to support or buy another dog from where I got my dogs.


Well were the parent's and at least 3 generations back health/temperament tested? Because like a bunch of us already stated, you never know what your'e going to get if you go by the word of the breeder who owns both parent dogs and "swears" that they're great and healthy.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

my very first gsd, Trouble, was in danger of being shot and killed by her owner's neighbor. She liked to try to herd his sheep and her owners didnt wanna tie her up. They put an ad for her in the penny pincher, free to god home. She was an amazing dog! We got Rogue at a yard sale, for 250 dollars from a family who "didnt have time for her anymore" (bull) were having our issues like with any other puppy and I think she is a beautiful and amazing dog!


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

I have 4 toy poodles that are champion bred. The breeder who charged 2500. didnt want to bother getting up at night to feed them. I got them instead of euthanasia. She was an older woman, who admitted in the past she would have drowned them. After the first one I took, she just called me directly the other 3 times. 

Charging more money and having show dogs does not mean a person is a decent breeder or even humane. As she put it she put them in the water until the bubbles stopped. 

Many hundreds of cesarean sections also revealed the true colors of many breeders as they look over the pups and literally toss them into a box adding up the prices and show disapproval over sex, color, or confirmation. 

All I can say is they their are no guarantees, and although I have also dealt with many good caring breeders, from my experience, they are a box of chocolates. It is what it is, and it is a business.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Well were the parent's and at least 3 generations back health/temperament tested? Because like a bunch of us already stated, you never know what your'e going to get if you go by the word of the breeder who owns both parent dogs and "swears" that they're great and healthy.


I didn't know 3 genearations from my first dogs from her, although they are listed on my papers but I know them for at least 3 generations back now.  Yes they are temperament tested and hips are certified. 3 that I knew personally, were SAR. Two retired the third was killed in the line of duty. Never shown or titled though just friendly loveable working dogs.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> I find that entire statement a little fishy...If the dog had a medical issue that prevented it from eating/drinking, then how was it alive long enough to even make it to a rescue/be adopted out?
> 
> And not every puppy in a rescue has a problem. I honestly don't really understand where that statement came from..


A megaesophagus is a condition where the esophagus stops pushing food down into the stomach. At first, most of the food still makes it to the stomach. The longer the problem is left untreated/unattended to the worse it gets. The esophagus gets bigger around and food and water have a harder time passing into the stomach (because the dog's esophagus is parallel to the ground so gravity doesn't help, as it would in a human.) By the time we got him and it was diagnosed, there wasn't much that could be done. We held him upright after he ate for as long as possible and he ate on an incline, but he still vomited up at least 50% of his food. We had him for 2 years before we finally had to put him to sleep because nothing was staying down and he was completely miserable. If he would have stayed in the home he was at prior to us, with no incline (and no meds that didn't seem to work) he may have made it one year. 

I didn't say that all puppies in rescues have problems, I said that most purebred puppies in rescues have problems. The two most recent I have seen were victims of broken bones (one hit by a car) at a young age and were in rough shape.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> I have 4 toy poodles that are champion bred. The breeder who charged 2500. didnt want to bother getting up at night to feed them. I got them instead of euthanasia. She was an older woman, who admitted in the past she would have drowned them. After the first one I took, she just called me directly the other 3 times.
> 
> Charging more money and having show dogs does not mean a person is a decent breeder or even humane. As she put it she put them in the water until the bubbles stopped.
> 
> ...


I didn't need to argue with you until now. You are so totally and completely wrong.

A *reputable breeder* with a "champion" dog is required to keep their dogs looking healthy enough to receive titles in enough shows to qualify them as champions. This requires lots of food, time, and money. Clearly that woman wasn't actually reputable or she was blatantly lying to you.

A *reputable breeder* does not breed for sex or color. _Correct_ _conformation*_ is part of the breed standard, so of course they should try and keep that in mind when they are trying to better the breed.

A *reputable breeder* rarely even makes a profit from their dogs after the money spent from health testing, temperament testing, titling, and raising a healthy litter is added up.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

The reason why I have a problem with backyard breeders is the fact that they are root cause for animals ending up in pounds and shelters. Animals end up in rescue or euthanised because the people who bought them from a BYB may have a change of situation and can't keep the dog, but the breeder is in no position to take the dog back. 

If you can't be bothered or afford to ensure that your breeding animals are healthy (by getting them tested) and are in such desperate need to place you puppies when they get to 12-16 weeks that you will reduce the price to get them off your hands then you have no respect or true love for the lives you have brought into this world. 

BYB in my opinion do it for the love of having cute fluffy puppies and pocket money, but if they truly cared about the dogs they produced, they would make sure that they would do their darnest to ensure the animals that they are responsible for breeding do not end up neglected or homeless and would have a contract signed from the purchaser ensuring this. 

The whole point of being a registered and reputable breeder is declaring that you are accountable for the animals you breed, you want people to know which dogs and how many dogs you have bred, the health and temperaments that you have carefully selected for and you want to know that they are being placed in good homes that will be committed to your puppy/puppies for the rest of its life. 

BYB are often responsible for breeding dogs without understanding the implications of poor temperament and will often sell puppies to people without considering the dogs temperament and the people its going home with. They have no reputation to protect so if a dog they bred bites a child or attacks a dog they suffer no consequences, only the dog and its unassuming new owner suffers. 

So many reasons why BYB are unethical, if cost is an issue, go rescue a puppy(ironically, that no doubt was probably the product of a BYB) from a shelter or foster organisation that dedicates money and effort towards the dogs rather than selfish monetary gains, but don't reward BYB for their negligence and lack of foresight towards the pet overpopulation problems we have every today, with your money. 

By the way I'm not a breeder, I am a foster carer for abandoned dogs, and my own gsd was a rescue.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tazor, I need to add something else to the list of things that nobody's saying: Nobody's saying that charging a lot of money for a dog means you're a good breeder. Of I charge you $2000 for a pet rock that dosn't mean it's a great rock. It means I'm a crook and you're an idiot. What we're saying is that the decision to buy a puppy is a decision that needs thought and research. Study bloodlines. Meet lots of dogs. Think about it. Seek wise council. If you're married talk to your spouse about it. If you're spiritual pray about it. Don't get taken advantage of, for $200 or $2000.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Also, a good breeder will not allow their dogs to be rehomed or put into shelters without their knowledge. The dog will be returned to the breeder before any of that happens. So they shouldn't really be contributing to the shelter population, in reality.



well that would be in a perfect world. in the real world, that's not exactly how it works. having worked for collie rescue and afghan hound rescue and now done a tiny bit w/german shepherds i've found that there are many, many reputable breeders that when those dogs have been inshelter, or gone stray, or gotten impregnated by an unknown male, they do not want them back. i cannot tell you how many times there have been chips or tattoos read back to the breeder and the breeder turned down the rescue and asked them to please rehome them instead of taking them back. 

in the real world, irresponsibility doesn't just fall on lax owners or BYBs. there are excellent breeders who involve themselves deeply in rescue work, and they are to be commended. however, for every one of them that do there are 2 or 3 that turn their backs on the "product" they produce. 

dw


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Dragonwyke said:


> well that would be in a perfect world. in the real world, that's not exactly how it works. having worked for collie rescue and afghan hound rescue and now done a tiny bit w/german shepherds i've found that there are many, many reputable breeders that when those dogs have been inshelter, or gone stray, or gotten impregnated by an unknown male, they do not want them back. i cannot tell you how many times there have been chips or tattoos read back to the breeder and the breeder turned down the rescue and asked them to please rehome them instead of taking them back.
> 
> in the real world, irresponsibility doesn't just fall on lax owners or BYBs. there are excellent breeders who involve themselves deeply in rescue work, and they are to be commended. however, for every one of them that do there are 2 or 3 that turn their backs on the "product" they produce.
> 
> dw


I wouldn't refer to those 2 or 3 breeders as reputable breeders. I'd call them BYB's.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

atruepastime said:


> So many reasons why BYB are unethical, if cost is an issue, go rescue a puppy(ironically, that no doubt was probably the product of a BYB) from a shelter or foster organisation that dedicates money and effort towards the dogs rather than selfish monetary gains, but don't reward BYB for their negligence and lack of foresight towards the pet overpopulation problems we have every today, with your money.


Go to petfinder and type in Carson City, NV. There are 11 German Shepherds. 2 are Senior, one is special needs most are mixes and have warnings no kids, no cats, etc. So please tell me where I can find all these unwanted German Shepherd puppies please? I will gladly rescue one.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Dragonwyke said:


> well that would be in a perfect world. in the real world, that's not exactly how it works. having worked for collie rescue and afghan hound rescue and now done a tiny bit w/german shepherds i've found that there are many, many reputable breeders that when those dogs have been inshelter, or gone stray, or gotten impregnated by an unknown male, they do not want them back. i cannot tell you how many times there have been chips or tattoos read back to the breeder and the breeder turned down the rescue and asked them to please rehome them instead of taking them back.
> 
> in the real world, irresponsibility doesn't just fall on lax owners or BYBs. there are excellent breeders who involve themselves deeply in rescue work, and they are to be commended. however, for every one of them that do there are 2 or 3 that turn their backs on the "product" they produce.
> 
> dw


Thank you, at least one person recognizes that not all breeders are as perfect as they would like their prospective clients to believe, and are not by any standards byb. My second shepherd was an adult rescue, and he was a GREAT dog. I think many people would be astonished at what we see behind the scenes.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> Thank you, at least one person recognizes that not all breeders are as perfect as they would like their prospective clients to believe, and are not by any standards byb. My second shepherd was an adult rescue, and he was a GREAT dog. I think many people would be astonished at what we see behind the scenes.


You have taken this topic in a totally different direction. And you obviously don't know what to look for in a true reputable breeder. My question was only if you made the mistake of buying from a BYB before you knew any better, not if you chose to knowingly support a BYB or not. 

As far as your "behind the scenes" experience goes...I am a vet tech and I am involved in rescue. So I've seen "behind the scenes" thank you very much.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> Yes, I could rescue a puppy, but usually if there is a purebred puppy in a rescue, it's because there is something wrong with them.



vicky, i am so sorry you had a terrible experience w/a rescue group. i really am. this is one, of many reasons, i don't work w/groups anymore and only independents i personally know. however, do not let it sour you on them all. because your idea that there is something wrong w/an animal in rescue because it's in rescue is simply not true. especially with todays economy and job and housing market. whenever someone gets into financial straits the first thing that goes, even before the ipod, cable, and cell phone is the family dog. you can check any shelter and you'll find that more 1/3 of the animals in there are pure breds. 

right now in the Miami-Dade Animal Control Center, the worst shelter in the state of Florida, a high-kill shelter, there are at least 13 purebred german shepherds. most of them less than 5yrs old and all of them will be dead within a week. because it's that full with gsds EVERY week. and they aren't there because there's anything wrong w/them. they're there because ppl lost their jobs, lost their homes, have to move into smaller homes, homes w/out yards, got divorced because of all the losses etc etc etc. these dogs will either be dead or picked up by the 2 gsd rescues here. 

so don't close your mind to rescues. they're not all liars, they're not all out to make money off the backs of the ill fortune of others. i promise some of us really do have the better fortune of the animals at heart. 

dw


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> You have taken this topic in a totally different direction. And you obviously don't know what to look for in a true reputable breeder. My question was only if you made the mistake of buying from a BYB before you knew any better, not if you chose to knowingly support a BYB or not.
> 
> As far as your "behind the scenes" experience goes...I am a vet tech and I am involved in rescue. So I've seen "behind the scenes" thank you very much.


Sorry it was me, not Tazor, that said I would knowingly go back to the breeder where I got my previous German Shepherds.  I don't consider her a BYB but I'm sure some would.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

The term BYB always conjures up negative thoughts in peoples minds - especially on this forum. And it's not as cut and dried and people make it out to be. 

We got Juno from what I would now consider an upper end BYB. She'd had (some) tests done on the sire and dam, the pups were in good health, the bitches were not bred every heat, and the vaccinations were up to date. I had been perusing the internet adverts in Ireland for GSD puppies for a couple of months. We opted to see this breeders puppies because the hips score on the sire was 3/3, and the dam was A1. I know now there is much more to health screening than just hips, but for a BYB, I don't feel that is half bad. We paid our 400 euro for Juno and are delighted with her.

All in all, she wasn't the most knowledgeable breeder out there. I actually feel I know more about the GSD breed at this stage than she did. (That sounds haughty, but I don't know how to put it more delicately.) This breeder was very difficult to get ahold of when I had questions, and when I did get through to her, the answers I got tended to be not overly helpful and vague, as if she didn't know the answer. I gained far more knowledge after joining this board. I tried contacting the sire's owner a few weeks ago. I wanted to get a better idea of what Juno's background pedigree was. She comes from great "stock" on paper. Her grandparents were "world champions". But the sire himself was never titled or anything. I got the feeling the owner of him was riding on the coattails of a good hip score and a champion background to put his dog up for stud. 

All in all, I do not feel that Juno's breeder was the worst BYB out there. She provided a good home for her dogs and pups. I'm not ashamed that I bought from a BYB, because I bought based on the knowledge I had at the time. But knowing what I know now, I would do things differently. You live and learn.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

TaZoR said:


> We have a large boarding facility where I work and have taken care of hundreds of rescues over the years. From somoyeds, labs, pits, st. bernards, and more. We work with rescues of all kinds. Many of these rescues dont have foster homes and board with us for months. They are shown outside on the lawn to prospective families. They ask us how they are with other dogs, and some even asked us to parade them by cat cages to see how they react.
> 
> *This is common among rescues in this area.* It is a nice suburban upper class town. So, I do not agree with the knowledge that you assume to come with all rescues. Im not saying that no onevshould adopt these dogs, but I'm saying if i have small children or small animals it would be a consideration to get a pup i could raise and no one should be judged for that.


As someone from your area and very active in the rescue community, it is NOT common of area rescues. MOST rescues in this area (unless shipping dogs up from the south) use foster homes. This is especially true of the GSD rescues. 

The rescue I work with now boards some of their dogs BUT we train, exercise and love each one of our dogs for a minimum 2 hours a day. We have them in classes, our office is setup like a living room so we can simulate the home environment and we talk them out on errands. We are fortunate enough to have a full time care giver and 24 hour access to our kennel.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Go to petfinder and type in Carson City, NV. There are 11 German Shepherds. 2 are Senior, one is special needs most are mixes and have warnings no kids, no cats, etc. So please tell me where I can find all these unwanted German Shepherd puppies please? I will gladly rescue one.


My dog was a 4 month old pup, the people who gave her up bought her because they wanted a puppy gsd because they had a young child (2 year old), what happened? In two months the cute 8 week old puppy was 16 weeks old and too much energy for the baby so they couldn't keep her. Getting a puppy is not necessarily a solution, if you get a puppy with a genetic temperament that is unsuitable for your lifestyle then you in just as much a bind, the benefit of a reputable breeder though, is that they will put careful thought into the pup they place with a family with children, and should gladly replace or take back a pup if the match is wrong. That is good business (for the customers) and it is ethically appropriate (for the puppy).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Verivus said:


> No, it wouldn't be nice at all. Why would the good breeders, who are trying to do everything right, have to stop because BYBs and puppy mills are producing poorly bred dogs who are typically the purebreds you end up finding in shelters? What would doing this solve? You statement makes no sense to me.


Do you really think that the only reason that any dog ends up in a shelter is because its poorly bred? Then maybe you should take a walk through the shelter and see how many are taken in because they can't afford them, they moved, they got divorced, they had a baby, etc..I seen a beautiful golden retriever brought in because he jumped on someone...I have owned and had 100's of dogs in my lifetime and it didn't matter where they came from everyone of them were good dogs with crappy owners. I watched pure breds get put to sleep with parvo, because guess what their owners could go get another healthy dog for the same price...You really need to go to a shelter or call a rescue to see how it really is out there.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

atruepastime said:


> My dog was a 4 month old pup, the people who gave her up bought her because they wanted a puppy gsd because they had a young child (2 year old), what happened? In two months the cute 8 week old puppy was 16 weeks old and too much energy for the baby so they couldn't keep her. Getting a puppy is not necessarily a solution, if you get a puppy with a genetic temperament that is unsuitable for your lifestyle then you in just as much a bind, the benefit of a reputable breeder though, is that they will put careful thought into the pup they place with a family with children, and should gladly replace or take back a pup if the match is wrong. That is good business (for the customers) and it is ethically appropriate (for the puppy).


I don't believe a breeder can predict the temperament of a puppy at all. I have seen puppies come from the meanest parents and turn into wonderful dogs. As in any dog, the breed itself plays a role. If your getting a shepherd, rott, or pit then anything can happen, its up to the owner to make sure the dog is well socialized in every aspect.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My family dogs were all from byb.

Sinister was also from a byb.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Emoore said:


> No.
> 
> There are millions of dogs in this country, but precious few German Shepherds with solid nerves, appropriate drives, and good health.
> 
> ...


I would like to know what your definition of a sub par is? Because I have had nothing but dogs in the situation you describe above and they were all amazing dogs. People need to start fixing their pets so there are no accidental litters, people need to see the faces of all the dogs in shelters that will never leave there--this is a good one for people that would rather spend thousands on a dog, when they can go to a shelter and get a wonderful dog or even two for so much less. Dogs don't just end up in a shelter because of byb's and if you think that your crazy. Dogs end up in the shelter because of people that take the easy way out. I can go and get about 4 pure bred german shepherds that came from "good" breeders right now for under $500.00 because their owners are moving and can't take them with...Guess what all of these dogs will end up in a shelter because the owner isn't taking the time to even call the breeder.....So again its got nothing to do with breeders...its the owners.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

atruepastime said:


> My dog was a 4 month old pup, the people who gave her up bought her because they wanted a puppy gsd because they had a young child (2 year old), what happened? In two months the cute 8 week old puppy was 16 weeks old and too much energy for the baby so they couldn't keep her. Getting a puppy is not necessarily a solution, if you get a puppy with a genetic temperament that is unsuitable for your lifestyle then you in just as much a bind, the benefit of a reputable breeder though, is that they will put careful thought into the pup they place with a family with children, and should gladly replace or take back a pup if the match is wrong. That is good business (for the customers) and it is ethically appropriate (for the puppy).


And to add to this most rescues and shelters will not adopt any bigger dog to a family with kids under the age of 5...whether its a shepherd, lab, or a golden retriever because again people use the kids as an out when they want to get rid of the dog!!


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

What I'm saying is that not everyone can afford a dog from a reputable breeder. Yes, I know what that means. If byb suddenly disappeared then many loving owners would be denied the chance to own a german shepherd. Since, by your way of thinking byb dogs are the only ones who end up in a rescue. 

I do not feel my dog is sub par in any way and I am proud of him every day. He may not ever get to westminster but he is my champion regardless of his pedigree. 

Rescue dogs are fine, but in reality, many have issues I would not choose to bring into a home with children. Even foster homes will push you to take on a dog that may not be suitable.

The hosp/boarding facility I worked at was huge. High volume and could hold over 200 dogs comfortably. 4 vets worked at the same time daily. In 25 yrs, I have come in contact with an insane amount of owners, breeds, rescued, breeders...etc. 

I will not defend byb who mistreat or neglect breeding dogs, nor will I concede that all top show breeders are treating their dogs as they should. 

The owner of my facility took in many adoptions over the years and they are surrendered for all reasons from all financial backgrounds. A $4000. dog from someone who earns $750,000. a yr, is the same to them as a $400. dog is to someone who makes $40,000. I don't feel breeding has anything to do with the amount of rescues. People dont bother going back to a breeder if its easier to bring the dog to us or an aspca or specific breed rescue. 

I wanted Tazor, he appeared as if by magic a month after I put my shepherd of 13 yrs to sleep. He filled a hole in my heart and continues to do so everyday. 

This entire site seems full of people who are demeaning to those of us who simply want a pet. When someone asks a question that you percieve as stupid, many, not all, attack instead of helping.

My dog will not be tracking, herding, participating in shows or schutzhund training or obedience class training...(gasp). He will be excersized, loved, play fetch, go everywhere I go and be a well mannered dog I am soooo proud of. 

I do not think I wish to be a member of this site because their are so many people who are condescending to the point of disregarding people who cannot spell as well as you, and start a thread about it. Everyone is here because they love their dog, and want to learn more by forming an alliance, not because they want to feel like you would like to see the breeder of the love of their life put out of business. 

Take this however you want, but I CAN google elsewhere for answers to my questions should I have any.

Sincerely, 

Tazor Vom Puppymill

Apologies to all, who do not fit my concerns


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> What I'm saying is that not everyone can afford a dog from a reputable breeder. Yes, I know what that means. If byb suddenly disappeared then many loving owners would be denied the chance to own a german shepherd. Since, by your way of thinking byb dogs are the only ones who end up in a rescue.
> 
> I do not feel my dog is sub par in any way and I am proud of him every day. He may not ever get to westminster but he is my champion regardless of his pedigree.
> 
> ...



Very good points and I agree on most And the rescue dogs that you wouldn't bring into the home with children has nothing to do with the dog but everything to do with the person who raised it and didn't socialize it the right way. My dogs are my pets and companions not trophies


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> What I'm saying is that not everyone can afford a dog from a reputable breeder. Yes, I know what that means. If byb suddenly disappeared then many loving owners would be denied the chance to own a german shepherd. Since, by your way of thinking byb dogs are the only ones who end up in a rescue.
> 
> I do not feel my dog is sub par in any way and I am proud of him every day. He may not ever get to westminster but he is my champion regardless of his pedigree.
> 
> ...


Again, you are taking this whole thing personally. *You fail to notice that the vast majority of us are saying that our first dogs were from a BYB.* The difference is that we most likely would not chose that BYB again for another dog. And I started this thread asking a simple question, that you then turned into a personal bashing fest of people who support good breeders. 

Sorry you had such crappy experiences with rescues and breeders. Not one person here said that your dog wasn't worth what you went through to get him. I'm sorry that you can't realize why it is so important to have well developed and tested breeding stock in a reputable breeder rather than just breeding two family pets to make puppies. Hopefully you never have to experience any problems related to that with your puppy, as so many of us have.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Again, you are taking this whole thing personally. *You fail to notice that the vast majority of us are saying that our first dogs were from a BYB.* The difference is that we most likely would not chose that BYB again for another dog. And I started this thread asking a simple question, that you then turned into a personal bashing fest of people who support good breeders.
> 
> Sorry you had such crappy experiences with rescues and breeders. Not one person here said that your dog wasn't worth what you went through to get him. I'm sorry that you can't realize why it is so important to have well developed and tested breeding stock in a reputable breeder rather than just breeding two family pets to make puppies. Hopefully you never have to experience any problems related to that with your puppy, as so many of us have.



What you are failing to read is that most people got their dogs at a BYB and they might not go back to that one, but from what I am reading they will get another dog the same way...I will never personally go to a breeder and pay an over the top fee for any dog when in my experience the best dogs I have had were free, rescues, strays, or from BYB. And yes its personal when people are suggesting that unless you go to a good breeder your dog is sub par...that is very offensive All the testing in the world is not going to guarantee a good dog, but if that makes people feel better and they want to spend tons of money..more power to them, but the same problems can happen whether the dog is from a good breeder or not. Its about the breed in general and what they are prone to.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sinister is from a byb, I did not know the difference between a reputable breeder and a byb when I got him. He is the best dog in the world. I wish that he would live forever because he is the kind of dog that I would want to spend forever with. He is perfect to me, everything I could have ever wanted, I would risk my life to save him. Although he is amazing, I would never buy from his breeder again, I would never recommend them to people wanting to buy a GSD puppy.

Since being on this forum I have learned the difference between a byb and a reputable breeder. I will never go the byb route ever again, regardless of what breed I am going with.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

llombardo said:


> What you are failing to read is that most people got their dogs at a BYB and they might not go back to that one, but from what I am reading they will get another dog the same way...I will never personally go to a breeder and pay an over the top fee for any dog when in my experience the best dogs I have had were free, rescues, strays, or from BYB. *And yes its personal when people are suggesting that unless you go to a good breeder your dog is sub par...that is very offensive *All the testing in the world is not going to guarantee a good dog, but if that makes people feel better and they want to spend tons of money..more power to them, but the same problems can happen whether the dog is from a good breeder or not. Its about the breed in general and what they are prone to.


How am I suggesting that the dog is sub par? _I own two dogs that I would consider BYB._ I do not consider them sub par at all. Am I then personally trying to offend myself? Not sure how saying that a dog is from a BYB is considered offensive at all. It has nothing to do about the dog itself. It has to do with the irresponsibility of the breeder, and the support given to that breeder when they profit from breeding puppies whose parents have not been properly health and temperament tested, and have not developed properly managed contracts with interested buyers. Anyone who buys a puppy from a breeder without a contract is open to breed their dog, regardless of any testing whatsoever, yet again, contributing to the rising population of animals that will end up in shelters or rescues from being placed in improper homes and genetic health issues.

Buying a dog from a breeder severely limits the chances of puppies carrying any genetic diseases. That's the point of spending the money on proper health testing. If you're just going to say, "Well the GSD is prone to HD so I won't be surprised if my dog has it" is absurd. It's yet another reason why proper health screening is done.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> Tazor, I need to add something else to the list of things that nobody's saying: Nobody's saying that charging a lot of money for a dog means you're a good breeder. Of I charge you $2000 for a pet rock that dosn't mean it's a great rock. It means I'm a crook and you're an idiot. What we're saying is that the decision to buy a puppy is a decision that needs thought and research. Study bloodlines. Meet lots of dogs. Think about it. Seek wise council. If you're married talk to your spouse about it. If you're spiritual pray about it. Don't get taken advantage of, for $200 or $2000.


Nobody wants to argue with this? Anyone? Bueller? 

In answer to the OP's question: yes, I bought my first dog from a byb. I've met lots of byb dogs and lots of breeder dogs. And after experiencing the difference between a dog from generations of well-thought-out breeding and a dogs that happened by chance because somebody thought it would be nice to breed, I will never buy anything but a dog with known lineage from a well-thought-out breeding program again.

I will also rescue adult dogs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Nobody wants to argue with this? Anyone? Bueller?
> 
> In answer to the OP's question: yes, I bought my first dog from a byb. I've met lots of byb dogs and lots of breeder dogs. And after experiencing the difference between a dog from generations of well-thought-out breeding and a dogs that happened by chance because somebody thought it would be nice to breed, I will never buy anything but a dog with known lineage from a well-thought-out breeding program again.
> 
> I will also rescue adult dogs.


No argument here! I totally agree with you. 

Be honest, do I really sound like I'm trying to bash the owners and dogs of BYB pets? Considering the fact that I own two, I'm finding it hard to believe that I am coming off that way. Although they are great pets, I would never want to support the breeders which they came from due to their irresponsibility, and I know that many people here agree with me and feel the same way about their own pets. I don't know what else to say, I guess.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My lab is from either a BYB or a puppy mill - not clear on the difference. He was on sale for $400 if we bought him that weekend. He was from a breeder that basically had multiple litters of pups, living in pens. He was very difficult to housebreak, and our vet felt it was because he came from a pen and was probably lying around in feces (although he was clean when we got him). He would potty in his crate, then lay down right in the stool. Thankfully after a full year of cleaning him, his crate, etc. right away when he had an accident he seemed to learn to like being clean. He is diabetic, has hip dysplasia, pica. A person I work with now used to work for a local vet, and she said the dogs from this breeder were well known for having health problems. He has cost so much money to keep going over the past 9 years. He has a wonderful temperment, and a heart of gold. 

I think I still didn't understand the concept of BYB totally until I started reading this forum while looking for a GSD. A few of the breeders I called would fit the definition, but thanks to advice I read on this forum I was able to pick up on the warning signs. I have put a deposit on a puppy from a reputable breeder here in Michigan. Our new puppy will be coming in April.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Sinister is from a byb, I did not know the difference between a reputable breeder and a byb when I got him. He is the best dog in the world. I wish that he would live forever because he is the kind of dog that I would want to spend forever with. He is perfect to me, everything I could have ever wanted, I would risk my life to save him. Although he is amazing, I would never buy from his breeder again, I would never recommend them to people wanting to buy a GSD puppy.
> 
> Since being on this forum I have learned the difference between a byb and a reputable breeder. I will never go the byb route ever again, regardless of what breed I am going with.


I would say that ALL of this is true (for me) of Abby. The BYB where I got her was reputable and conscientious and into the breed... but still a BYB.
My first 2 dogs were mutts I got from the humane society at 10 weeks each... 20 years apart.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

atruepastime said:


> My dog was a 4 month old pup, the people who gave her up bought her because they wanted a puppy gsd because they had a young child (2 year old), what happened? In two months the cute 8 week old puppy was 16 weeks old and too much energy for the baby so they couldn't keep her. Getting a puppy is not necessarily a solution, if you get a puppy with a genetic temperament that is unsuitable for your lifestyle then you in just as much a bind, the benefit of a reputable breeder though, is that they will put careful thought into the pup they place with a family with children, and should gladly replace or take back a pup if the match is wrong. That is good business (for the customers) and it is ethically appropriate (for the puppy).


And again we are around to the question of what exactly is a BYB. My breeder checks temperment and does health tests, she stay's in contact (I've known her for 9+ years), she takes dogs back. What she doesn't do is show, title, or charge over 1000 dollars for a puppy. Up until she retired from SAR her breeding dogs were her SAR dogs. My dogs sire was a search and cadaver dog. My dogs brother, also a search dog, a beautiful loving sweetheart that died in the line of duty. She doesn't breed every heat cycle or even every year. She does breed to keep her line of wonderful search dogs going. Dogs that are not used for search are put in pet homes like mine with contracts saying we must spay and neuter. What I'm saying is not all BYB are bad! Would I ever get a dog from a puppy mill. NO! Would I go back and get another puppy from my breeder, Yes absolutley.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> And again we are around to the question of what exactly is a BYB. My breeder checks temperment and does health tests, she stay's in contact (I've known her for 9+ years), she takes dogs back. What she doesn't do is show, title, or charge over 1000 dollars for a puppy. Up until she retired from SAR her breeding dogs were her SAR dogs. My dogs sire was a search and cadaver dog. My dogs brother, also a search dog, a beautiful loving sweetheart that died in the line of duty. She doesn't breed every heat cycle or even every year. She does breed to keep her line of wonderful search dogs going. Dogs that are not used for search are put in pet homes like mine with contracts saying we must spay and neuter. What I'm saying is not all BYB are bad! Would I ever get a dog from a puppy mill. NO! Would I go back and get another puppy from my breeder, Yes absolutley.


I don't think I would exactly consider your dog's breeder a BYB. If she participate din SAR, then IMO she was indeed working those dogs. Health tested parents and a spay/neuter contract! Sounds good to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally I think people can get their dogs from wherever and whomever they please. It's a free country.

I don't agree that one has to support "BYBs" (whatever that means) because they can't afford a reputable breeder. I got a quality dog (great pedigree, healthy, house trained, crate trained, beginning obedience and agility trained, UKC Champion, great hips, no health problems whatsoever) from a reputable breeder FOR FREE (see my earlier posts, answering the OP question).


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

i think i'm glad i have no idea what kind of breeders produced my dogs. quincy i know was an experimental breeding - someone in florida was trying to produce a different crossing to get a "comfort golden" using a corgi and a golden retriever, he is the result. there are 3 breeders here trying that that are registered and probably more that aren't. grover is chow/beagle mix that was a feral who knows where he came from. sasha is a gsd/husky/wolfdog mix from NC and oops litter from the mountains, banshee is a gsd that was abandoned in wisconsin, and hugo was a local abandonment here in florida. 

i used to receive collie retiree girls from a breeder years ago for rehoming. she was a wonderful woman. i don't know what kind of breeder she would be considered. i didn't like her setup, but alot of other collie breeders used and bought her dogs. i know someone that studs her bull mastiff and i definitely don't like her setup, but is she considered a breeder, she doesn't hold the pups. she just collects $3000 for each service. 

i don't think, speaking as a rescuer, decent breeders should be stopped from breeding altogether. i do think breeding should restricted. puppy mills should be wiped out completely, pet stores should be banned from selling animals of any kind. there should be a better way of licensing and oversight on that licensing for breeding and kennels. AKC is nothing but paperwork that anyone can fake. the Ag Dept is a joke when it comes to oversight. HSUS, ASPCA are not organizations that care a lick for the animals themselves but for political expediency, only 1% or their billions per year go to actual animal care. none of these entities do what they were meant to do. 

in the end the quality and proper care of the canine world is fully dependent on good breeders and caring rescuers. these two groups one at the beginning and the other at the end must work hand in hand to make this work. 

dw


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

TaZoR said:


> What I'm saying is that not everyone can afford a dog from a reputable breeder. Yes, I know what that means. If byb suddenly disappeared then many loving owners would be denied the chance to own a german shepherd. Since, by your way of thinking byb dogs are the only ones who end up in a rescue.
> 
> I do not feel my dog is sub par in any way and I am proud of him every day. He may not ever get to westminster but he is my champion regardless of his pedigree.
> 
> ...


I for one agree with what you posted - for reasons stated at the end of my post.

However, I feel bad that you do not wish to be a part of the forum any more. I tend to be a background observer on most of the threads here, partially because I'm still learning, and partially because I have neither the time nor the energy to argue with those who wish to "have a go". I have watched many a thread go pear shaped quickly, and it seems to be a growing trend that a fair few have been driven away on this board due to feeling attacked, etc. 

I dont think everyone that comes off as attacking means to, though. Overall, everyone is here because they love their dogs and feel passionately about the breed and the best way to give their beloved pets the best life possible. (Although there are a few on some other threads that seem to "have a go" no matter what the subject is!) 

I do hope you don't leave forever. I for one have found your viewpoints on various threads to be really informative and interesting. My sister has worked in a few shelters/vet clinics and can tell a lot of the same type of stories you have mentioned regarding various dogs/breeders/etc, so I understand where you are coming from.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dragonwyke said:


> AKC is nothing but paperwork that anyone can fake.


Really? Do you know of breeders or dogs with fake papers? Sometimes it's a difficult process to get papers even with legit breedings (foreign mating, one dog not AKC but foreign FCI registry, etc).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> How am I suggesting that the dog is sub par? _I own two dogs that I would consider BYB._ I do not consider them sub par at all. Am I then personally trying to offend myself? Not sure how saying that a dog is from a BYB is considered offensive at all. It has nothing to do about the dog itself. It has to do with the irresponsibility of the breeder, and the support given to that breeder when they profit from breeding puppies whose parents have not been properly health and temperament tested, and have not developed properly managed contracts with interested buyers. Anyone who buys a puppy from a breeder without a contract is open to breed their dog, regardless of any testing whatsoever, yet again, contributing to the rising population of animals that will end up in shelters or rescues from being placed in improper homes and genetic health issues.
> 
> Buying a dog from a breeder severely limits the chances of puppies carrying any genetic diseases. That's the point of spending the money on proper health testing. If you're just going to say, "Well the GSD is prone to HD so I won't be surprised if my dog has it" is absurd. It's yet another reason why proper health screening is done.


It wasn't you that suggested the dogs were sub par......and I don't think its absurd to hold in the back of my mind that any larger size dog I have might come up with hd or another health issue associated with the breed. Breeding is not an exact science, so all the tests and money spent in the world can not guarantee the end result...it just won't and don't happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Really? Do you know of breeders or dogs with fake papers? Sometimes it's a difficult process to get papers even with legit breedings (foreign mating, one dog not AKC but foreign FCI registry, etc).


AKC paperwork really doesn't mean anything...read below quote directly from AKC..
_"There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" guarantee the quality of a dog. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog"_


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

llombardo said:


> Breeding is not an exact science, so all the tests and money spent in the world can not guarantee the end result...it just won't and don't happen.


Breeding is a blend of science and art and it takes passion and education to do it well consistently. I don't understand why someone would want to buy from someone who half-***es it.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

All my dogs have been either shelter pups or free off of craigslist. Although, had I not volunteered when I was little at our local shelter and had some awesome people educate me early on, I could have easily fallen into a BYB trap. Don't judge people, educate them. If they still don't care, then feel free to judge them all you want!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I don't think I would exactly consider your dog's breeder a BYB. If she participate din SAR, then IMO she was indeed working those dogs. Health tested parents and a spay/neuter contract! Sounds good to me.


That is exactly what I'm saying. I don't consider her to be a BYB but some do.  Some might say hobby breeder or any number of other labels. I spent what I could afford and got the dogs I wanted. I just get annoyed with the whole "your dogs don't come from championship lines" (i.e. reputable breeder) nonsense. Not that you are saying that just that some do! The Akita I got from a rescue many many years ago did come from championship lines. He was put outside on a chain and ignored for years. When we finally got him he had a broken canine from chewing rocks because he was so bored. (I don't know why the breeder didn't take him back of if they were even contacted but I do know even with his linage he wound up in rescue) Their loss our gain.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Really? Do you know of breeders or dogs with fake papers? Sometimes it's a difficult process to get papers even with legit breedings (foreign mating, one dog not AKC but foreign FCI registry, etc).


here are just a few articles: 
SEE CLEARLY AKC Mail Fraud Fake Titles

Fake AKC Registration For Puppy Mill Dogs In Missouri Prop B | Global Animal

Dog owner runs into problems over AKC registration :: WRAL.com

Official Dog Registry Papers for Your German Shepherd - For Dummies (read the last paragraph)

there are many, many more articles on this subject. there are even articles on how to go about doing it. yes, there are fake akc registrations. akc registers to puppymills AND to byb as well as to decent and responsible breeders. anyone can register with akc. even me if i have enough names to put in the spaces and enough money to pay the fee. 

dw


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

My first dog came from a rescue group: Big Dogs Big Hearts Rescue Buffalo NY Rochester NY and it was a VERY good experience. My husband and I got to visit our puppy several times before we brought her home, and I have made a lifelong friendship with Rosa's foster mom. I have nothing but positive things to say about that particular rescue. It was an excellent experience and if I ever decide to do a rescue dog again, I would go back to them. 

My second dog came from an American show line breeder: German Shepherds at Peakesbrook, AKC German Shepherd Puppies, New York German Shepherd Breeder, AKC German Shepherds for sale. and we chose this breeder without really having any knowledge of the different lines that exist. But Niko's breeder does extensive health testing and his parents are champion show dogs with lovely pedigrees. Knowing more now about the different lines, I might have gone with a breeder who titled her dogs in a sport rather than conformation. However, I am very satisfied with Niko. He is physically flawless and exhibits a lot of the traits that epitomize the GSD. As I am not a very experienced dog person, that has presented me with some training challenges, but that is hardly Niko's fault.

I'd never judge a person for making a mistake based on lack of information. In my rural area, researching for a good breeder before buying a dog is pretty much unheard of. I think it just does not occur to most people to consider anything more than looks and price when purchasing a puppy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Breeding is a blend of science and art and it takes passion and education to do it well consistently. I don't understand why someone would want to buy from someone who half-***es it.


Because as in anything in life, nothing is perfect and never will be. So you can take all the science and art in the world and it doesn't mean you will always get something beautiful...breeders are not Gods and they can't predict, prevent, or pretend that they know what any of the dogs will turn into. I do believe some people have a passion and love for the breed that they breed but are very closed minded and money is the bottom line. If they truly loved the breed and were "educated" they would take a step back and look at what already is here and needs home, not bring more into the world to end up homeless. I have three wonderful dogs(not including all the ones that I have had in the past) that are exceptional dogs that according to your standards came from someone that half-***ed it....and guess what I saved their lives because they didn't ask to be here and I'd do it a million times if I had to. I don't care about titles one little bit, my dogs are my family and are treated as such and in return they give me unconditional love..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

llombardo said:


> AKC paperwork really doesn't mean anything...read below quote directly from AKC..


Whether it means anything is not the point. The poster stated anyone can fake it.... Not anyone can register with the AKC, the dog must be AKC registerable. There are other registries millers use for marketing but these are not AKC. I'd like to see John Q Public obtain full AKC registry for a dog that is not AKC-registerable....


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Because as in anything in life, nothing is perfect and never will be. So you can take all the science and art in the world and it doesn't mean you will always get something beautiful...breeders are not Gods and they can't predict, prevent, or pretend that they know what any of the dogs will turn into. *I do believe some people have a passion and love for the breed that they breed but are very closed minded and money is the bottom line. **If they truly loved the breed and were "educated" they would take a step back and look at what already is here and needs home, not bring more into the world to end up homeless. *I have three wonderful dogs(not including all the ones that I have had in the past) that are exceptional dogs that according to your standards came from someone that half-***ed it....and guess what I saved their lives because they didn't ask to be here and I'd do it a million times if I had to. I don't care about titles one little bit, my dogs are my family and are treated as such and in return they give me unconditional love..


It is very clear the you are the close minded one in this instance. I sincerely hope that one of the breeders on this forum comes here to tell you about the so called "money" that is their "bottom line". Or some of the fellow posters on this forum that have purchased a puppy from these breeders can come on here and tell you about the quality puppy that they received and life long relationship that they maintain with their breeder.

A reputable breeder does not contribute to the dogs that are in shelters.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

llombardo said:


> AKC paperwork really doesn't mean anything...read below quote directly from AKC..
> _"There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" guarantee the quality of a dog. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog"_


No one said that it meant that the dog was of good quality. But no, you can not just pick up a stray dog on the street and get AKC papers on it. It's not that easy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> My second dog came from an American show line breeder: German Shepherds at Peakesbrook, AKC German Shepherd Puppies, New York German Shepherd Breeder, AKC German Shepherds for sale. and we chose this breeder without really having any knowledge of the different lines that exist. But Niko's breeder does extensive health testing and his parents are champion show dogs with lovely pedigrees. Knowing more now about the different lines, I might have gone with a breeder who titled her dogs in a sport rather than conformation. However, I am very satisfied with Niko. He is physically flawless and exhibits a lot of the traits that epitomize the GSD. As I am not a very experienced dog person, that has presented me with some training challenges, but that is hardly Niko's fault.
> 
> I'd never judge a person for making a mistake based on lack of information. In my rural area, researching for a good breeder before buying a dog is pretty much unheard of. I think it just does not occur to most people to consider anything more than looks and price when purchasing a puppy.



Mine is physically flawless and exhibits all the traits of a German Shepherd and I don't know a thing about her line...just saying again its what you put into them, not where they came from. I sat in class with dogs that came from some of the "best breeders" and they paid thousands of dollars for their dogs and guess what, they were mean and reactive dogs..mine looked at them like they were crazy!! I paid a lot less for mine and in my opinion got so much more. She's beautiful, confident, graceful, and we can't go anywhere without people asking what breeder I got her from..I smile and say craigslist


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> It is very clear the you are the close minded one in this instance. I sincerely hope that one of the breeders on this forum comes here to tell you about the so called "money" that is their "bottom line". Or some of the fellow posters on this forum that have purchased a puppy from these breeders can come on here and tell you about the quality puppy that they received and life long relationship that they maintain with their breeder.
> 
> A reputable breeder does not contribute to the dogs that are in shelters.


A reputable breeder doesn't know that the person that they sold the dog to 3 years ago just dropped their dog off at the shelter........again not the breeders fault, the owners fault for not going back to the breeder but it happens and happens all the time. Again I feel that you think if I didn't get my dog from a reputable breeder that I didn't get a quality dog. If it isn't about money, then why do dogs get sold for $2000.00 a pop, why not just sell the dog for $500.00 which is more affordable to most people? I understand that they put money into the parents for testing and such, but that is a one time shot and that money will be made back the first litter...what about the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th litter at $2000.00 per dog. Really?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> No one said that it meant that the dog was of good quality. But no, you can not just pick up a stray dog on the street and get AKC papers on it. It's not that easy.


What do AKC papers mean? That yet another person can start breeding? One can compete with their dogs?(I can compete with my dog per AKC without papers-all I need is two pictures showing she is a shepherd and $25) I have a mixed breed that can compete because she has "papers" through AKC. They can say they have papers? What does it mean?


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

llombardo said:


> ..I smile and say craigslist


i get the same kind of remarks when my guys are out in the yard. i love it. i tell everyone, "these guys are all throwaways", when they ask me where they can get a dog like mine. lol 

i love a good breeder. i do. some of them do some really great, great work. done right a breeder isn't making a penny on the backs of their dogs. there's too much that goes into the testing, the prenatal care, the health care of the dam, the long term care of the parents, and health care of the pups, the training and showing of the parents, the travel involved in all of that. 

i once travelled w/a woman who worked catahoula leopard dogs, hunting dogs. now that's some exciting stuff. these dogs do real world trailing, tracking, hog hunting down here. some of southerners might know about these dogs and dangerous work they do. talk about expense. there's no money in this field folks. 

a REAL breeder, someone who is the field to improve, or standardize the breed, who really loves the breed doesn't make money. they don't produce limitless puppies year in and year out. they might put out one litter every couple of years. then they take these pups and they decide which to sell and which to keep and train for either show, trail, schutzh, protection or defense. ALL of which is very expensive to do. by the time training is done between 6mos to 2yrs later they've put in thousands of dollars and they will NEVER get that money back no matter how much they sell that dog for. the ones already sold barely cover any of the costs of prenatal care, lol. knowing what vets cost, that's just laughable. 

no, none of us should close our minds to a decent reputable breeder. nor should we shut down the small hobby breeder, and none of us should think so highly of ourselves that we turn on each other in an effort of self defense. we all love our dogs, immensely. none of us would walk away from them. and in the end, isn't that what brings us all here  

dw


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

As a kid, my first dog came from a want ad ( think Craigslist only in the paper) She was a purebred AKC registered Labrador Retriever. The owners just had a baby and couldn't take care of the 5 month old pup too. She got a good home with us, was Dad's hunting dog as well as our pet, and died when she was 13. We fostered a GSD for a summer when I was a kid, and then my father came home one night with the tiniest GSD pup I have ever seen. He was in my father's pocket. I have no idea how old the pup was, but my father took him because the BYB he ran into was going to kill the pup for being too small. He was very sickly and we almost lost him to a bad case of heartworm. He spent a month in the animal hospital. He grew up to be an awesome dog. 
My own first GSD pup that I got when I was an adult, we got from a reputable, well known breeder. Same with Wolfie.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I bought Zeus from a good breeder in Napa.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Dragonwyke said:


> i get the same kind of remarks when my guys are out in the yard. i love it. i tell everyone, "these guys are all throwaways", when they ask me where they can get a dog like mine. lol
> 
> i love a good breeder. i do. some of them do some really great, great work. done right a breeder isn't making a penny on the backs of their dogs. there's too much that goes into the testing, the prenatal care, the health care of the dam, the long term care of the parents, and health care of the pups, the training and showing of the parents, the travel involved in all of that.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Mine is physically flawless and exhibits all the traits of a German Shepherd and I don't know a thing about her line...just saying again its what you put into them, not where they came from. I sat in class with dogs that came from some of the "best breeders" and they paid thousands of dollars for their dogs and guess what, they were mean and reactive dogs..mine looked at them like they were crazy!! I paid a lot less for mine and in my opinion got so much more. She's beautiful, confident, graceful, and we can't go anywhere without people asking what breeder I got her from..I smile and say craigslist


According to your signature, your GSD is five months old. So technically you can't say he's flawless until you've had his two year hips and elbows done.  But I've very glad you had a good experience with your dog so far. Bottom line, we all must do what our conscience tells us is the right thing, and of course it will not be the same for everyone.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

When discussing purchasing a dog the main issue, for me, is not whether one will obtain a "quality dog" it is whether one will be supporting the betterment of a breed or a reputable rescue - or - putting money into the pockets of people who breed/broker/dump without thought for the animals involved.

I have a physical wreck of a Golden Retriever whom I obtained through a reputable rescue (which I also foster for) and he is beyond price. But I didn't pay some back yard dealer/dumper on craigslist to bring him into my life. I supported a reputable rescue.

I have 2 very well bred dogs from good breeders as well. Also beyond price to me. But I didn't pay a pet store or BYBer or puppy mill or craigslist dealer/dumper to bring them into my life. I supported reputable breeders.

All 3 of my dogs are equally valuable to me. 

And if it is, indeed, all about "what you put into them, not where they came from" my Golden should be a temperament disaster. A "ticking time bomb" of a dog. Because until rescue got the call from AC his life was one of horrific neglect. But his genes saved him. Literally. If he hadn't been a dog of sound temperament, given his physical condition, AC would have put him down the same day they took him in. 

Which brings me to another important issue. While reputable breeders can produce dogs with health and/or temperament issues, they stack the deck very heavily against such outcomes by diligent practices. If money were their "bottom line" they could certainly skip the health testing, the temperament testing, the showing, the eventing. The _**only**_ people for whom money is the "bottom line" in dogs/dog breeding are the BYBers and millers and brokers and dumpers.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Oops, sorry llombardo, I wrote he instead of she in reference to your pup. My bad.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> I do not feel my dog is sub par in any way and I am proud of him every day. He may not ever get to westminster but he is my champion regardless of his pedigree.
> 
> *Your dog is not sub par in the sense that he is a wonderful companion, most likely as loving and loyal as a dog with a champion pedigree. Sasha is most likely BYB (she's a rescue so there's no for sure way to know, but based on her temperament that would be my guess); she is loving to a fault, a more loyal friend I could not find, but that being said she should never have been, not that I'm not glad she was, I am, but her temperament is not right. She is an AMAZING dog, but is not everything that a shepherd should be. I wouldn't trade her for the best bred dog in the world, but I'd never breed her either. *
> 
> ...


To leave is obviously your choice, but I don't think anyone is questioning that you have a great dog. Everyone loves their dog the same on this board, whether it's a champion or just a champion in the eyes of the owner, everyone here loves their dog with all their hearts, and everyone knows that every dog deserves to be loved. No one was questioning that.


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## boiseno (Oct 20, 2011)

My first dog (gsd x norwegian elk hound) was found at the park when i was 17. She was a wonderful dog who lived with me for ten years or so then stayed with my brother after they had to put their gsd to sleep and i had to live in a college dorm. She was put to sleep this last year at 15 yo.

We got our newest GSD from a byb before i really knew what we were doing. She is just over six months old now, healthy, smart, and beautiful. Next one will come from a breeder though.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Mine is physically flawless and exhibits all the traits of a German Shepherd and I don't know a thing about her line...j*ust saying again its what you put into them, not where they came from.* I sat in class with dogs that came from some of the "best breeders" and they paid thousands of dollars for their dogs and guess what, they were mean and reactive dogs..mine looked at them like they were crazy!! I paid a lot less for mine and in my opinion got so much more. She's beautiful, confident, graceful, and we can't go anywhere without people asking what breeder I got her from..I smile and say craigslist


That's not really 100% true. I could spend all the time with Sasha in the world and I don't think she would ever not be afraid of fireworks or gun shots. I don't think she'd ever be "bomb proof". She's wonderful, and some of it is a nature verses nurture kind of deal, but having bred animals before (not dogs but sheep) there are things that genetics play a role in. 

You can never know 100% what you're going to get when a living thing comes into the world, but you can stack the deck in your favor. When we were breeding sheep we spent time researching what traits we had, what traits we needed, what genetic defects we'd found in our herd, how to breed that out of the herd, it took a lot of time and money and it's a continual processes. We were happy the years we broke even on it; not all creatures are equal genetics wise. That doesn't mean that any animal deserves to be treated like crap, but it does mean that not every animal contributes positively to the gene pool. If we want our companions to live as long and as healthily as possible, we want to stack the deck in their favor. No one wants to have to put their best friend down for hips or aggression, or some other genetic flaw. We want them to live long and happy lives and cross the bridge when they've lived life to the fullest and they're ready to go home.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ok we're going in circles. I'm checking out of this discussion


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The first dog I actually purchased was from the shelter. My first GSD came from a breeder with a back yard. She had some excellent imported titled dogs and was mentored by one of the best out of Germany. Not sure if she did her breedings in the back yard or if she was a house breeder or maybe a garage breeder.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

My first breeder is Robin and Carlos at Team Huerta Hof.
I think I have it much easier than folks buying their dogs in the 90s and 80s in that educating myself today is as easy as a google search. If I started my puppy search in the 90s, I would've probably picked up a the Canada dog breed magazine book thingy and circled the breeder that looked the best on paper.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Ok we're going in circles. I'm checking out of this discussion


Me too. Thanks to everyone who had some logical input!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's kind of the issue I'm reading into...a reputable breeder can be reputable to a group of people, but not to another group. Take my club for instance:

I called them looking for a puppy, the lady talked my ear off about this and that and this and that, stuff I didn't really care about. She then told me that they all go home from 3 to 4 months, whenever the breeder deems it okay. I thought that was crazy, I wanted my dog at 8 weeks old like all the other breeders I have read about do. So we didn't go with any of the breeders at the club.

I brought my dog there (from a breeder I liked that would be considered a byb), and I was judged, not openly, but I could tell the people didn't really appreciate where I got my dog from.

It's now more than a year later, my dog doesn't come from the best lines, but he's easily one of the best working dogs in that place. We have mostly show dog people, but they can all appreciate the working ability of my dog. He can go for days while theirs quickly tire from an hour of obedience. This is kind of going towards a lines discussion, but its mostly a story about how a $500 dog, is more GSD than the $1500+ dogs he trains with. I couldn't be happier with the dog that I have, and although we will wait and see about his health, he is the perfect dog for me and I have gotten more compliments on him than I ever expected.

I know that I got lucky, I know that I am in the small percentage of people that got more from their byb dog than they ever expected, and I know that I got more from him than I ever would've gotten from any of the reputable breeders at my club. Nothing against their dogs, there are tons of champions and UDX dogs that have come from those lines, but after training with them for a year, my completely biased opinion is that my dog is leaps and bounds better than anything they could've produced and sold me.

So although on paper they are great breeders, and they produce good dogs, many of you would never want a dog from them. They have sold tons of dogs in my area, and will continue to do so, but they are not dogs that people can't get anywhere else in this country. They have produced grand victors and victrex, but if that doesn't matter to you then why buy from them? 

The byb/reputable discussion is so subjective that it doesn't even matter. As long as you are happy with the dog you have, that's all that matters. Who cares if you will go back to the breeder or not? I would have no problem going to my breeder again, but I'm not going to. And it has nothing to do with them, its just that I want something different. If I can have a clone of my pup, I'd love it, but I want to learn and grow as a handler, and have a new challenge on my hands.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

When I was 14 I got my first dog. She was a year old pound dog. She was a border collie mix. I trained her, walked her, went to the vet with her, groomed her, and fed her. She was my responsibly. She lived to be 16 I learned so much from her. I have had dogs ever since. I had 3 dogs at the age of 24.

I never plan to go to a breeder unless I was to become a breeder and I don't. 
Rescue dogs for life.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

1st dog BYB
2nd shelter
3rd BYB 
4th BYB

from then on, rescues and ligit breeders.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

GatorDog said:


> I am a part of another forum that is currently harassing someone for getting their first GSD from a BYB.


tell em to 'bite you'!!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

GrammaD said:


> When discussing purchasing a dog the main issue, for me, is not whether one will obtain a "quality dog" it is whether one will be supporting the betterment of a breed or a reputable rescue - or - putting money into the pockets of people who breed/broker/dump without thought for the animals involved.
> 
> I have a physical wreck of a Golden Retriever whom I obtained through a reputable rescue (which I also foster for) and he is beyond price. But I didn't pay some back yard dealer/dumper on craigslist to bring him into my life. I supported a reputable rescue.
> 
> ...


Daisy is my dog i love her w/ all my heart but her issues came as aresult of poor breeding. She has never been abused ,never slept outside is the princess diva and her temperment is managable but if she had lived through what the golden above did god help the person trying to rescue. Lucky is my heart dog he has issues but different then Daisy but still a BYB probably. 
I have no idea what Ill do when they are gone,Im praying I dont need to decide for a long time. I want a therapy dog ,a dog i can take to festivals ,walks, camping and family events. I love rescues but a well bred dog who betters the breed,who has a stable temperment I could do with that. So maybe a rescue and a a dog from a good breeder.Hopefully years from now.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my first dog as a kid was a border collie mix that my Dad got from a lady who could no longer keep her.

We had a few dogs living at home, a couple of gsd's, rescues, and a couple of mixed breeds. 

My first dog out on my own was of course a GSD, who came from a breeder. I wouldn't call her a byb , but she wasn't well known. Health tested, did obed with her dogs, used a Fidelco stud dog, that was back in 87. He was a great dog, such an ambassador of the breed.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

marshies said:


> My first breeder is Robin and Carlos at Team Huerta Hof.
> I think I have it much easier than folks buying their dogs in the 90s and 80s in that educating myself today is as easy as a google search. If I started my puppy search in the 90s, I would've probably picked up a the Canada dog breed magazine book thingy and circled the breeder that looked the best on paper.


That's true, back in the 90s (when I was a kid and wanted a GSD), I looked in the DOGS USA annual book/magazine and Dog Fancy, and found breeders from there... I never did end up getting a GSD back then though because I ended up adopting a stray dog instead. If I had I probably would have ended up picking one of the ones from there though.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

I don't want to say that I got Gracie from a BYB. The breeder had a few dogs and only had a litter once or twice every couple of years. She took amazing care of her dogs and truly cared for them. However, I will say that Gracie is the result of nice people breeding their good pets. We never saw the father of the puppies, but we did meet the mother. She was a very mellow, friendly dog. She didn't have titles, but was still a good dog. The problems I have with are on the father's side. 

After we bought the puppy, I discovered that there was a history of hip problems and soft ears in her dad's line. We are experiencing the soft ears and it is very annoying. I hope we don't run into hip issues...but I won't be surprised if we do. 

Gracie is not a bad dog, but she doesn't come from the best that a GSD can be. I wish I had known what questions to ask the breeder and what too look for in a puppy, besides just picking out a cute one. I have socialized her and work her daily in obedience. She is a great dog and I am happy to have her...but I am aware that the next time I get a dog...I need to be wiser.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Mine came from a puppy store. Before then? Who knows. All I know is he's got great nerves, and his only real issue is Resource guarding, which I will take over other temperament issues ANY day. He can handle gun shots, car rides, big machines, the blow dryer, the vacuum, I can touch his feet, look in his mouth, play with his ears, etc. Who's to say BYB's always produce crappy quality dogs?


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## Msmart (Dec 18, 2011)

I to really didn't know so much when I got my gsd. I had looked every where and could not find what I wanted so I had posted an add on craigslist looking for a gsd, lab or a golden. The very next day a man emailed me and said that his male and female had a accidental litter which turned out to be 10 puppies and was down to two puppies. one of which he was going to keep. However he had the last 10 week old female was willing to give up for $400. I jumped at the chance and do not regret it for one second. I am very happy with how it turned out for me and my family.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

iBaman said:


> Mine came from a puppy store. Before then? Who knows. All I know is he's got great nerves, and his only real issue is Resource guarding, which I will take over other temperament issues ANY day. He can handle gun shots, car rides, big machines, the blow dryer, the vacuum, I can touch his feet, look in his mouth, play with his ears, etc. Who's to say BYB's always produce crappy quality dogs?


You are aware that puppy store puppies come from puppy mills, yes?


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

My first was a Brittany Spaniel, working line breeder had a litter. My dad was the guys boss at the time and dad managed first pick. This guy's dog's were renown hunters and he had 3-4 litters pre-sold. I vaguely remember this, I was 4 years old at the time. I remember the puppies were in a 20x20 pen with their mother, I want to say 9 or so puppies. Dad picked me up and put me in the pen and told to find a puppy. I picked the one that followed me around and liked to play the most. We named him Carolina Victor, Vic for short. Amazing bird dog, would hold a point for hours. When he scented a grouse he would lose his mind, that dog lived to hunt.

The breeder asked that we keep him intact as he was the one that he wanted to breed (I had good dog instincts at age 4...hey!). At around age three Vic had a seizure, he had very very mild epilepsy, no triggers that we could determine, just every year or so he'd have a seizure. That knocked him out of contention for breeding, which was a real shame as he was a real bird dog. Hunting him was a pleasure, he had massive stamina, listened well and had a soft as cotton mouth. 

He died my first year of college. Ripe old age of 14 years old, he had a terrific run of it. Fenced acreage, pond to play in and of course hunting. He wasn't a cuddle dog, he lived outside (we tried to get him inside but he really liked it outside better). Drop the tailgate on the truck and he lit up like a roman candle HUNT HUNT HUNT.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

When we were kids our terrier, Snickles, was a stray that I brought home and persuaded my mom to let me keep. Our next family dog, Sebastian, was from a neighbor with free puppies. The first dog I got on my own was Kinsey, she came from the Indianapolis Humane Society. I got Dallas at Indianapolis Care and Control. While Willow was definitely bred by a BYB, I got her from a local rescue organization where she was rescued at the age of 5 weeks.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> You are aware that puppy store puppies come from puppy mills, yes?


Or BYB's...but yes, I do know that. I'm still very pleased with how everything is turning out. =]


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Who is a reputable breeder and who is not is very subjective. 99% of dog breeders are not reputable if you follow the standards put forth in some of the choosing breeder threads on this forum. 

Supposedly reputable breeders bash BYB for ruining the breed, but what about the "reputable" breeders that breed these crazy high drive sport dogs. To me they are ruining the breed as well. A german shepherd sould not be a crazy land shark either.

I bought mine from a breeder, I probably wouldnt buy another dog from him because of his practices now but my dog was great. I would say medium drive and very smart and healthy.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Ooh ooh I want to express my opinions too! Er, sorry, I'm on new meds and they are making me a bit loopy. Hopefully what I'm saying will make sense though. First off, my very first dog was a GSD mix off the street in Costa Rica, probably dumped. Then my dogs were pretty much all rescues/dumped dogs until I caved and bought one at a huge discount from a pet store to keep him from being euthed when he was going to be sent back to the "breeder". And then back to all rescues and shelter dogs for quite a while, and finally Koshka from a good breeder. So I've not been around the good breeders so much, but plenty of experience with all the rest along the way. 

I think it's less of a black and white thing when it comes to breeders. I feel that it's a whole line, starting at one end with the very best of the breeders, the ones that almost everybody would agree are excellent breeders doing it the right way, and going all the way to the other end - the horrible puppy mill breeders that almost nobody would think are good breeders. Everything else falls somewhere in between - the BYB, 'pet breeders', hobby breeders, etc. 

The thing is, that where exactly on that line one breeder may fall is going to vary depending on exactly what you are looking for in a breeder. One person may be perfectly content to buy the dog from the guy who bred his two nice dogs together after doing some health testing, and things can work out wonderfully for them. The next might only want pups from titled parents who have had every test possible and where there is a very strict contract, and things can work out wonderfully for them. 

I personally will always urge people to rescue first if they have no real care where the dog comes from. There are plenty of puppies in rescues to choose from, and you can probably find enough purebred dogs to pick the one you want, though you may have to wait. If somebody is set on a certain breed, then I will encourage them to go to a breeder that is good by my standards - either they show or work their dogs, they complete health testing, they understand the genetics and how the lines combine and so on,and they breed to improve the breed. *Some* of the breeders I will call good ones are considered BYBs by others. 

I think I can understand how hard it can be when you can't afford to get that really expensive super awesome dog from the best breeder ever, and to feel like people are looking down their nose at you for not shelling out thousands to get that dog. I don't feel that's being said here, it seems more like people are trying to say they have done the same, and feel they've learned about how they will do it next time. Buying a dog from a really good breeder is a way of stacking the deck in favor of having the healthiest and best dog possible.

Feel free to ask me to clarify anything that I've muddled up here, since I may not be communicating very clearly.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OriginalWacky said:


> I think I can understand how hard it can be when you can't afford to get that really expensive super awesome dog from the best breeder ever


"I can't afford it" makes me crazy. 

Most of us aren't living in a tent city in Haiti or a slum in India. 

If you live in the United States and you're *not* in the middle of a job/income/medical/etc crisis. . . . you should be able to save up $1500 or $2000 over the course of a year or so. If you can't, you probably can't afford dog food and medical care and all the other stuff that goes along with a dog. If you *are* in the middle of a job/income/medical/family crisis, you probably shouldn't be adding a puppy right now

For most Americans "I can't afford it" = "it's not a priority." 

There's this idea floating around the forum that those of us who own dogs from known, quality bloodlines are a bunch of rich snooty one percenters. My car and my husband's car put together are worth about $7000. I don't have TV. I buy my clothes at Goodwill and much of my furniture is secondhand. But I have a nicely-bred dog from a good breeder because I saved up for it. I can afford it because made it a priority.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> "I can't afford it" makes me crazy.
> 
> If you live in the United States and you're *not* in the middle of a job/income/medical/etc crisis. . . . you should be able to save up $1500 or $2000 over the course of a year or so. If you can't, you probably can't afford dog food and medical care and all the other stuff that goes along with a dog. If you *are* in the middle of a job/income/medical/family crisis, you probably shouldn't be adding a puppy right now
> 
> For most Americans "I can't afford it" = "it's not a priority."


You are right. Spending 1500 or 2000 dollars is not a priority for many. I've got two kids in college. I'm not about to spend $2000 + to buy a dog. I'll spend that and have spent that and more in vet bills if my wonderful dog gets sick. I'm not showing, I'm not breeding and I don't give a flying fig about papers. I don't see why anyone should look down upon me because I choose to not to go to an expensive breeder.  Personally I think that someone who spends a year or two saving $2000 for a dog might consider using it towards a college education first. Now there is an investment that will pay off in the future rather than cost you money for the next 10-14 years.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> And again we are around to the question of what exactly is a BYB. My breeder checks temperment and does health tests, she stay's in contact (I've known her for 9+ years), she takes dogs back. What she doesn't do is show, title, or charge over 1000 dollars for a puppy. Up until she retired from SAR her breeding dogs were her SAR dogs. My dogs sire was a search and cadaver dog. My dogs brother, also a search dog, a beautiful loving sweetheart that died in the line of duty. She doesn't breed every heat cycle or even every year. She does breed to keep her line of wonderful search dogs going. Dogs that are not used for search are put in pet homes like mine with contracts saying we must spay and neuter. What I'm saying is not all BYB are bad! Would I ever get a dog from a puppy mill. NO! Would I go back and get another puppy from my breeder, Yes absolutley.


From what you are describing I wouldn't call your breeder a byb, she does all the responsible things to promote health temperament and work ethic in her stock, I would be so lucky to have a pup from someone who works this hard to ensure she is producing quality pups. I think there is a distinction in what a byb is to one person is quite different to another. 

As an emergency vet nurse 9 out of 10 "breeders" that we see coming in late at night because their bitch is in labour are byb, they aren't sure as to when there is actual problems with the labour and usually come in very late when pups that could be saved are dying/ dead or the mother is too exhausted from pushing and they failed to recognise that. They haven't any clue as to the actual day of ovulation so they don't know if the litter is coming unusually late or early, and low and behold they are distastefully disappointed when their realise that the cost of the vet care and caesarean is going to cost them much more out of pocket than the money they expected to get out of the litter. 

Pretty much they are your average Joe who bought two pure bred dogs, with no knowledge of genetics and the impact of lineage, and bred them to make some money. They may only want one litter or maybe a few more if the first litter sells well, but they are in it for the joy of their dog experiencing "parenthood" and the financial perks they get from selling puppies for "cheaper" because they haven't put in the initial outlays that a responsible breeder would - testing and ensuring that the pedigrees compliment the expected progeny. That is my personal blunt and basic description for a BYB, and they are the reason our pounds and shelters are filled with unwanted dogs. 

BYB are what have reduced the original strong nerved well tempered gsd to the nervous- reactive specimens of today, over popularity of the breed made it so sought after they were bred without any proper understanding of what it takes to improve or preserve the quality of the breed, instead they kept the outside appearance of the breed while allowing the inside nature and health to change for the worst.

I know a dog who is a therapy dog the most sweet and calm gsd, his father however was an aggressive unstable dog that was naturally very serious and enjoyed to fight people and dogs, now if the therapy dog's owner was to breed him with a bitch with the expectation that the pups will only turn out like the immediate parents they are kidding themselves, there is every chance that they might produce a throw back puppy like the unstable grandfather and sell it to some unsuspecting person who did not realise that it genetics runs deeper than one generation and that viewing the bitch and sire is not all that counts. 

If the thought of spending $1000 on your pet seems snort worthy, then what responsible breeder would WANT to sell you their pup, if you can't afford to buy the dog, then how you will you afford to vaccinate, worm, vet check, microchip, desex, obedience train, pay for accidental and emergency treatment & feed your dog well, for the next 10 to 14 years? If your $400 byb pup swallowed a pebble that caused an obstruction, would you then be prepared to spend the $2000.00 for surgery to fix it? Or would you have no choice but to put it to sleep because affording the purchase of the pup itself was a stretch. 

If I were to breed I would want to ensure the pups I bred went to homes that would be able to financially afford them for the rest of their lives within what is expected of normal pet ownership.. because pet ownership in particular german shepherd ownership is normally never cheap.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

shepherdmom said:


> You are right. Spending 1500 or 2000 dollars is not a priority for many. I've got two kids in college. I'm not about to spend $2000 + to buy a dog. I'll spend that and have spent that and more in vet bills if my wonderful dog gets sick.


There you go. I admire you for saying it.

And again, I don't know how many ways we need to say it, or how many languages we need to use, or if we need to get an interpreter in here, but most of us on this thread have dogs from bybs. Nobody is looking down on you.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

atruepastime said:


> From what you are describing I wouldn't call your breeder a byb, she does all the responsible things to promote health temperament and work ethic in her stock, I would be so lucky to have a pup from someone who works this hard to ensure she is producing quality pups. I think there is a distinction in what a byb is to one person is quite different to another.
> 
> *Thanks I wouldn't call her that either.  but as you say what a byb is to one is quite different to another.*
> 
> ...


Charging a lot of money for a dog will not ensure that. I've seen people who spend a ton of money on buying a champion dog, then throw it away when its not cute and easy, and I know people myself included who have spent a ton on free or rescue dogs. I don't really know how to solve the problem because as the comedian Ron White says, "you can't fix stupid." there are stupid people at every income bracket.  Then there are those people who are just not dog people who for some reason still feel the need to have a dog, and then proceed to throw them in the backyard and ignore them. *sigh*


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

People need to make their own call on what they feel is reputable or so called "BYB".

I think it is important for buyers to visit breeders and meet the dogs. One might think buying a german shepherd from a breeder who won nationals at schutzhund is "doing the right thing", but from my perspective a dog that wins nationals at schutzhund is not a good representation of the GSD. They are a very good representation of a dog that can perform a routine maybe. Alot of those top contending dogs live in kennels. I spoke with a "top breeder" who competes in nationals and he said he would hope his dogs werent capable of being seeing eye dogs, as those dogs wouldnt have the drive he wanted. I thought german shepherds were supposed to be capable of being seeing eye dogs?? they used to be number one (I think) but now the lab is taking over.

It is important to talk with the breeder and visit the breeder to understand their program and make an informed decision. 

One thing I think we all would agree on is not to buy from a pet shop. I dont care what the pet shop advertises or says they get the dogs from a puppy mill.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

atruepastime said:


> As an emergency vet nurse 9 out of 10 "breeders" that we see coming in late at night because their bitch is in labour are byb, they aren't sure as to when there is actual problems with the labour and usually come in very late when pups that could be saved are dying/ dead or the mother is too exhausted from pushing and they failed to recognise that. They haven't any clue as to the actual day of ovulation so they don't know if the litter is coming unusually late or early, and low and behold they are distastefully disappointed when their realise that the cost of the vet care and caesarean is going to cost them much more out of pocket than the money they expected to get out of the litter.
> 
> Pretty much they are your average Joe who bought two pure bred dogs, with no knowledge of genetics and the impact of lineage, and bred them to make some money. They may only want one litter or maybe a few more if the first litter sells well, but they are in it for the joy of their dog experiencing "parenthood" and the financial perks they get from selling puppies for "cheaper" because they haven't put in the initial outlays that a responsible breeder would - testing and ensuring that the pedigrees compliment the expected progeny. That is my personal blunt and basic description for a BYB, and they are the reason our pounds and shelters are filled with unwanted dogs.
> 
> ...


wow! I stop back in and its still going on?

bybs wouldnt be having so many problems with health issues had it not been for the prize winning esteemed show breeders. Had these dogs been bred for temperment, soundness and ability to function as the breed was meant to do we wouldn't be having this debate.

I don't know if you have ever seen pedigree dogs exposed on you tube, but I know you have seen the crippling effect of exagerated breeding over the years in our shows. the dogs look like its an effort to even walk to the winners circle.

In my opinion we need more byb and less show enthusiasts. I am including an example...

Health of Pedigree Dogs - YouTube

I know I said I was leaving here and I have signed up to a very nice forum. However, I have decided that its ok to disagree and even give some insight ..along with receiving some. 

As far as paying for medical expenses, I have found that many people will go to the ends of the earth to find the money for their pets. However on both sides of the coins many people with money do not care to bother to pay for medical care. Also financial situations can change in an instant or even over a couple years.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> There you go. I admire you for saying it.
> 
> And again, I don't know how many ways we need to say it, or how many languages we need to use, or if we need to get an interpreter in here, but most of us on this thread have dogs from bybs. Nobody is looking down on you.


 I know that most are not looking down upon me and those that do I really don't care. My dog loves me. That is what matters.  I just wanted to share my experience about where I got my dogs and why I would do it again. Because I think they're a lot of misconceptions floating around and not any good hard fast rules for classifing a smaller breeder like mine from a BYB.


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## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> wow! I stop back in and its still going on?
> 
> bybs wouldnt be having so many problems with health issues had it not been for the prize winning esteemed show breeders. Had these dogs been bred for temperment, soundness and ability to function as the breed was meant to do we wouldn't be having this debate.
> 
> ...


You make a good point. The hardcore show AND schutzhund people are ruining the GSD as much or more than the "BYB" because as is human nature, they take it to the extreme!

Extreme one way or the other is not good!!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tazor, that's the biggest straw man argument in the breed and it's been hashed to death. NOBODY-- not working breeders, not herding breeders, not sport breeders, not service dog breeders, not even 98% of show dog breeders-- likes or admires or produces dogs like the ones you posted above. Pedigree Dogs Exposed and the other video you posted represent about .1% of German Shepherds. Those videos are sensationalistic rags designed to influence impressionable newbies. 

I see they're still doing a good job.

If you look around the dogs on this forum, you will see zero-- or close to zero-- dogs that actually look or walk like that. That video is about as representative of the breed as a whole as a Detroit slum is of the United States.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Tazor, that's the biggest straw man argument in the breed and it's been hashed to death. NOBODY-- not working breeders, not herding breeders, not sport breeders, not service dog breeders, not even 98% of show dog breeders-- likes or admires or produces dogs like the ones you posted above. Pedigree Dogs Exposed and the other video you posted represent about .1% of German Shepherds. Those videos are sensationalistic rags designed to influence impressionable newbies.
> 
> I see they're still doing a good job.
> 
> If you look around the dogs on this forum, you will see zero-- or close to zero-- dogs that actually look or walk like that. That video is about as representative of the breed as a whole as a Detroit slum is of the United States.


Wow, you're more informed than a nightline news team who investigated, interviewed, traveled, and included pics of what breeds used to look like.. Even the AKC admits wrong doing in their standards and has been working to correct the problem. It is not a surprise to anyone else who has noticed the decline of purebred dogs. 

I have seen plenty of gsds who are hunkered down and weak and wobbly. They end up at the vet. I am not a newbie, I'm 48 and have owned shepherds for going on 26 yrs. I have done hundreds if not thousands of OfAs. 

Denial never helps in solving problems..Own it and work to correct it. The link I included was not pedigree dogs exposed.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My babies dont look like frogs and they are not weak or wobbly either. 

My byb male. :wub:












My female from a reputable breeder. :wub:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

TaZoR said:


> wow! I stop back in and its still going on?


 "this is the thread that never ends... It just goes on and on my friends"


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> "this is the thread that never ends... It just goes on and on my friends"


Exactly. Everyone's opinions are going to be different. One person will continually support BYB dogs and bash on reputable breeders and vice versa. 

The initial question was just, "Where did you get your first dog?" Not "would you get another dog from a BYB again?" There is definitely another thread for that already.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

My first dog when I was 12 came from a shelter. She was an Australian Cattle dog mix. We also had a German Shepherd/lab mix.

My first German Shepherd we got in Germany. My husband is German, and she was a birthday present shortly after we got married. So I managed to avoid all the bybs on the first go. 

My Asja ("ass-yaa" - a short form of Anastasia). She lived to 13.5 and died in her sleep.


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## RileyMay (Aug 6, 2011)

My first dog I got was a Black Labrador from a reputable breeder. His name was Rocky. We got him when he was 12 weeks old, the breeder wanted to wait until after Rocky's second set of shots to release to him to us. I miss him so much, and he was a great dog.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Titan came from a BYB. I regret, to an extent, not doing further research on breeders as I was very ignorant to breeding in general. Pups were able to be picked out (not taken home, just picked) at 3-4 weeks old. No type of testing was done on them and the breeder claimed to have health standards and policies in place should my puppy have a genetic defect, then fell off the face of the Earth once all were adopted. In the end though, I wouldn't change a thing. Titan is an AMAZING dog and I love him to pieces.. he is great physically and mentally, I have accepted the fact that I will NEVER in my life have as great a dog as he. I may come close but none will compare to his temperament, physique, and intellect. I lucked out, and have since bought another pup from a reputable breeder.. but in all honesty I can't say I wouldn't go with a BYB again.. they need homes too, and the likelyhood of them ending up in shelters is much higher so in the end, someone is going to adopt them regardless, why not me or you? Not meant to be an arguement.. just an opinion.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

llombardo said:


> Mine is physically flawless and exhibits all the traits of a German Shepherd and I don't know a thing about her line...just saying again its what you put into them, not where they came from. I sat in class with dogs that came from some of the "best breeders" and they paid thousands of dollars for their dogs and guess what, they were mean and reactive dogs..mine looked at them like they were crazy!! I paid a lot less for mine and in my opinion got so much more. She's beautiful, confident, graceful, and we can't go anywhere without people asking what breeder I got her from..I smile and say craigslist


How do YOU know these dogs came from some of the "best breeders"? I think it's quite obvious you don't know what that is.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> How do YOU know these dogs came from some of the "best breeders"? I think it's quite obvious you don't know what that is.


I'm assuming they probably bragged about getting from the "best breeders." Which is still quite possible especially if those people decided to not train or socialize properly and were ignorant to dog behavior. You can get a dog from a reputable breeder but if you don't correctly train them and give it adequate exercise and attention, it will likely be dog aggressive and ill mannered. No need to be rude about it.. llombardo may indeed know a lot about good breeders and in their opinion those were good breeders who adopted out to people who didn't know what to do with their dogs. Like they said it's a matter as what effort you put into your dog, and in the end I really agree with that. Having a good line doesn't at all guarantee your dog will be immediately obediant and have the perfect temperament. It just means they have a lot more potential in those areas should you take the time to bring those traits to light. If not.. you end up with a dog that's just that.. a dog.. with potential sure.. but not if you don't do anything with that potential. 

And that's not saying they were good breeders, I myself am still learning about what constitutes a good breeder.. I know a bit but not all. Just wanted to give you a different perspective on the matter..


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Dragonwyke said:


> i get the same kind of remarks when my guys are out in the yard. i love it. i tell everyone, "these guys are all throwaways", when they ask me where they can get a dog like mine. lol
> 
> i love a good breeder. i do. some of them do some really great, great work. done right a breeder isn't making a penny on the backs of their dogs. there's too much that goes into the testing, the prenatal care, the health care of the dam, the long term care of the parents, and health care of the pups, the training and showing of the parents, the travel involved in all of that.
> 
> ...


This is my favorite response. IMO it's very very true. Reputable breeders are great.. And I have bought my second dog from and really really great breeder and Athena is just wonderful. Titan was from a BYB and he is the best dog I have every had. 

It makes me sad to see people attacking eachother over this topic. Yes reputable breeders are fantastic! but not all BYB are terrible either.. and either was you spin it.. there are dogs that are needing to be adopted.. for those that can't afford a $2000 dog why shouldn't they get one for $500 from a BYB.. as long as they are willing to care for the animal and love it the same I couldn't judge someone for that, as I did the same thing.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Originally Posted by *Dragonwyke*  
_i get the same kind of remarks when my guys are out in the yard. i love it. i tell everyone, "these guys are all throwaways", when they ask me where they can get a dog like mine. lol 

i love a good breeder. i do. some of them do some really great, great work. done right a breeder isn't making a penny on the backs of their dogs. there's too much that goes into the testing, the prenatal care, the health care of the dam, the long term care of the parents, and health care of the pups, the training and showing of the parents, the travel involved in all of that. 

i once travelled w/a woman who worked catahoula leopard dogs, hunting dogs. now that's some exciting stuff. these dogs do real world trailing, tracking, hog hunting down here. some of southerners might know about these dogs and dangerous work they do. talk about expense. there's no money in this field folks. 

a REAL breeder, someone who is the field to improve, or standardize the breed, who really loves the breed doesn't make money. they don't produce limitless puppies year in and year out. they might put out one litter every couple of years. then they take these pups and they decide which to sell and which to keep and train for either show, trail, schutzh, protection or defense. ALL of which is very expensive to do. by the time training is done between 6mos to 2yrs later they've put in thousands of dollars and they will NEVER get that money back no matter how much they sell that dog for. the ones already sold barely cover any of the costs of prenatal care, lol. knowing what vets cost, that's just laughable. 

no, none of us should close our minds to a decent reputable breeder. nor should we shut down the small hobby breeder, and none of us should think so highly of ourselves that we turn on each other in an effort of self defense. we all love our dogs, immensely. none of us would walk away from them. and in the end, isn't that what brings us all here  

dw_



_I second this for the best response. Growing up the scenario was the same for every animal we owned, cat, dogs, duck....it went like this_

_We'd be with some of our backwards extended family....they'd start talking, my dad would say "you're going to do what with the cat, dog, or duck?" depending on which ******* family we were visiting...and my dad would give them a $20 and talk them into letting us take it home._
_Every single animal was acquired that way, we had mixes, we had purebreds...always from someone who failed to research or didn't care about the needs of the animal._

_As for Kaos my "first" dog as an adult. I'd call her more of a hobby breeder. She had 2 dogs, bred every other year, hips and elbows were certified...as that was all that was the "norm" at that time. She stayed in touch for the first few years very well. We did not lose touch until her cancer returned and she was too ill to carry on. Kaos is by far the best dog I could ever ask for.:wub:_
_Sherman...well you can just add me to the foster failure list. _


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

I had been training and fostering dogs for 10 years before I decided to keep one. My thoughts were that I keep spots open in my home for dogs who really needed me.

I knew a woman who was a hoarder. This woman had more money than anyone else I ever knew. She had 5 dogs and 18 cats. The smallest of the dogs, was a Teddybear Pomeranian, who was so scared of the world. He was beaten up, humped, had his food stolen, ears nipped, and reguarly abused by the other animals, while simultaneously being ignored by the owners and their kids. When the kids did interract with this dog, they would pick him up and throw him to the ground, blowing out both his knees. He had severe mobility issues. I never witnessed the abuse but the kids would brag about it to me, when I would come to house sit. 
None of the dogs were housebroken, groomed, or even walked on a leash until I stayed at her house. I would work on housebreaking, groom each dog, and take them for 3 walks a day when I was house sitting. They loved to see me come through the door and I had a special bond with all of them, especially the smallest.
One Christmas, the family decided to take a vacation to Mexico. The vet told her that the oldest dog was living on borrowed time. He had congestive heart failure. Well, knowing she didn't care about the dogs, she went on vacation anyways. He passed away on day 3. I had to call her and leave a message that the dog died. She never called me back. I took the dog to the vet to be disposed of per the note she left me. I felt this woman was so cold hearted. BUT no everyone loves dogs as much as me, which was my way of dealing with it.
2 weeks goes by and they return from vacation. I get a call from the woman who informs me that after the last 4 years of badgering her to rehome her dogs, she was finally taking my advice. 
I found homes for the remaining 3 dogs and kept one of them. I kept the smallest of them all, the one who was so scared of the world. He is now a Service Dog and is the most socially outgoing brat on the planet.

This is Louie:










He has so many health issues, but it's been worth the struggle for him and us. He is now, almost 13 years old, and doing great!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Chance&Reno said:


> This is Louie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh man.. what a cutie!!


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