# A TRUE breed test



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I have always heard that Schutzhund was a test for breeding suitability. Personally, I think it seriously lacks in many areas - most importantly, where are the SHEEP?? It is a German SHEPHERD.

So, here is what *I* would say is a good test for breeding suitability for a German Shepherd.

Dog must move a flock of around 30 sheep out of their corral, down a road (keeping the sheep to the side of the road when a car drives past them) and into a 10 acre field. Once in the field the dog's owner has the dog contain the sheep in a 1 acre area for 15 minutes, then the dog is asked to move the sheep to a different area and contain them in another 1 acre section for another 15 minutes.

At sometime during the second 15 minute grazing period for the sheep a decoy would appear and attack the owner. The dog is expected to engage the decoy until commanded to release by the owner. The decoy is then told to leave and the dog is commanded to return to the grazing sheep.

At the end of the second 15 minute grazing period the dog is commanded to move the sheep out of the 10 acre field and back down the road, again keeping the sheep to the side of the road when a car passes.

During this time a stranger approaches the owner, greets them and keeps going. The dog is not to engage the stranger. 

Once the sheep are corralled the dog is hitched to a small cart and commanded to pull the cart one quarter mile while maintaining a heel position. The dog and owner maneuver around obstacles - turning right and left as well as stopping and waiting.

At the end of the quarter mile the owner commands the dog to watch the cart and disappears from sight. Several strangers walk past the cart - one walking another dog. The dog must ignore the strangers. A decoy approaches and tries to remove an item from the cart. The dog must actively repel the decoy for at least 60 seconds and prevent them from taking the item. At the owners return the dog is commanded to pull the cart and they return back to the beginning.

Somewhere in there I would throw some type of tracking test (too tired to think of one right now but I would make it something more realistic and less regimented).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't understand the need for pulling a cart for a shepherd. It isn't anything people do these days. 

As for the sheep, well, some people work sheep with dogs, but it is pretty tough to get shepherd owners to ordinary classes. I wonder what it would take to get shepherd owners to where the sheep are enough for them to learn the job. Are there that many sheep around in most areas?

I think that having two different six year old girls walk an adult bitch for a mile along a busy bike path will tell you a lot about the dog's temperament and ability to function properly in society. Add to that the girls do not live with the dog, but the dog is willing to be handled by them, is pretty cool, especially when there are cyclists coming from behind and toward them, and joggers, and strollers, and the occasional dog.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't think there is anything wrong with Schutzhund. It's accesible and if done right it's just fine. I'd like an actual attack out of the blind added and then have everyone be honest about their dog.

When your dog has a simple stick issue and you have to show it to them for 3 years before you trial and then do an easy drive with your own helper on your own field with a friendly judge to get yourself a title, don't go and think your dog is now breedworthy. The problem isn't always the test, it's the people.

The drives in herding are tested just fine in a schutzhund trial, minus the sheep. Where are you going to find the sheep? who's going to have the type gsd's need for a test? who is going to let us train, let alone trial?

you can tell so much about a dog by being simple. Sometimes more is just more


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

crackem said:


> The problem isn't always the test, it's the people.


Yep.

However, because I can't resist a good hypothetical: how about tracking down a wayward/lost sheep for the tracking portion?

Or tracking down a "sheep thief"?


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Or tracking down a "sheep thief"?


In my imagination this is a hilarious little scene!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

For people who care about the breedworthiness of a dog, SchH reveals many insights into a dog's strenghts and weaknesses. To a newbie, it all looks the same, to an experienced trainer, they can see a universe of difference between two dogs doing the same exercise, that not even training can cover up.

We can come up with as many breed tests as we want - it comes down to the integrity and ethics of the people involved, exactly as crackem said. 

When we say that SchH is lacking - it is not lacking in WHAT it tests, it is lacking in that one can work the system to pass a mediocre dog. It is lacking because a dog can do the exercises half-heartedly and without seriousness and joy, they do it because of harsh training or just pattern training, but tracking, obedience or protection are the LAST things these dogs are interested in doing, yet they get a title and are considered breedworthy. 

Love your test Laurie! Wish we all had access to large flocks of sheep to really see what our dogs can and cannot do.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

What many people fail to realize is max von stephanitz wasnt really breeding HERDING dogs, he was attempting to create the perfect all around WORKING dog. He himself helped create schutzhund to test breeding stock, which should go to show how he saw his breed actually working.

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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

And the first Guide Dog was a GSD. That's a huge responsibility, and a very worthy job! Maybe the particular test in question isn't the issue, but the fact that the breed can be tested at all, if you know what I mean? To be trainable, capable, and willing to work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think Schutzhund is fine if some of the bites/attacks are taken more seriously, not all prey and fancy stuff but real attacks. I also read that they used to do a long attack where the dog transitioned from defense to prey? That would be interesting to see again, been meaning to try it with my dog. I'd also like to see a bit more agility/athleticism. Dogs still pass just fine when they kick off the jump and that's really the only agility type exercise (I don't mean like the sport of agility, but another exercise or two that tests the natural athleticism of the dog).


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Schutzhund is a pretty good breed test the way it is. Key is to train/title your dog yourself to level 3. 99.99% negative opinions with weird suggestions are made by people who never have or never could title their dog to level 3.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In my area, getting a hold of sheep is easier than schutzhund. I have been able to put one of my girls on sheep, and had other opportunities to do so within 100 miles. Schutzhund however, is much harder to find.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Ok, considering the fact that I don't know the first thing about Schutzhund and that I might be asking something really dumb...

I wouldn't want a dog that has been trained to bite, even a sleeve. Is that because I'm not understanding? 

If you're looking at a GSD for a pet, one that is never going to be trained to do Schutzhund, why does that matter for the pet owner? 

Apologies in advance for my ignorance in this area.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I like your test, and would definitely be up for training/attempting it.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sunstreaked said:


> Ok, considering the fact that I don't know the first thing about Schutzhund and that I might be asking something really dumb...
> 
> I wouldn't want a dog that has been trained to bite, even a sleeve. Is that because I'm not understanding?
> 
> ...


Because a Shepherd should be a shepherd. Pets never need to be trained, but only dogs that fit the breed standard in EVERY way (and that includes drive, courage, and temperament) should be bred. If you cant handle what a true german shepherd should be, then IMHO you shouldn't have one. Buy a lab or a golden. Dont put one in a wolf's clothing

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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Because a Shepherd should be a shepherd. Pets never need to be trained, but only dogs that fit the breed standard in EVERY way (and that includes drive, courage, and temperament) should be bred. If you cant handle what a true german shepherd should be, then IMHO you shouldn't have one. Buy a lab or a golden. Dont put one in a wolf's clothinghttp://www.petguide.com/mobile


I'm still confused. 

First, I completely agree with what you said about breeding. Pet home / no breeding.

There are a LOT of GSDs, right? Are the majority doing work of some sort or are the majority in pet homes? 

If you're not going to treat a GSD *like* a lab or golden, then why does Schutzhund matter for that dog? 

I'm not trying to be stupid here. I'd like to learn more.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sunstreaked said:


> I'm still confused.
> 
> First, I completely agree with what you said about breeding. Pet home / no breeding.
> 
> ...


All dogs have teeth and are capable of biting. A dog trained in schutzhund is probably much safer than most kept as pets. The level of obedience alone is well beyond your average pet. Those that train for this has far more control and discipline than your avg pet owner. 

Also, from what I understand, the dogs are targeting the sleeve, not the human. To most this is a game. Watch some of the videos of bite work, once the dog has the sleeve he/she will parade around with it just as mine do with the flirt pole.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sunstreaked said:


> Ok, considering the fact that I don't know the first thing about Schutzhund and that I might be asking something really dumb...
> 
> I wouldn't want a dog that has been trained to bite, even a sleeve. Is that because I'm not understanding?
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter if your dog has ever done Schutzhund or not - what matters is that BREEDERS commit themselves to preserving the strenghts and abilities and talents of the GSD breed. These are dog that can work as police K9's, SAR dogs, military working dogs, Personal Protection dogs, 4H dogs, obedience and agility dogs, tracking dogs, and well-loved pets and family members. 

In order for a BREEDER to be able to determine which dogs have the required attributes needed to carry forward the GSD work ethic and temperament, Schutzhund and other working venues are invaluable to allow us to see into their psyche and see what the dogs are made of. 

A balanced dog switches from aggression in appropriate time and place, to being calm, controlled and confident in everyday normal situations. Just like a trained martial arts athlete, they have developed a lot of self-discipline and self-control through the practice of their fighting style. The agression that a good dog has is NOT 'anger' just simmering below the surface, ready to explode out-of-control at the slightest provocation - that is an unbalanced, reactive dog with low threshold. Instead, the appropriate, protective aggression that is part of the breed standard is part of an inner protective strength, a strong core of self-confidence and ability to discern threat from non-threat. 

Many of us on this board do SchH/bite training with our dogs because we enjoy the training process, the control it gives us, the bond that it forges. We appreciate and value the inner courage and mental strength that this training allows us to see in our dogs. But these same dogs are also house pets, that live with children, other dogs, cats. My dogs sleep on the bed, come to work with me, stroll through Farmer's Markets, and sit sweetly for little kids to come and pet them. 

There is nothing wrong as a pet owner if you are not doing SchH, because being a pet is a very important job too - but the mystique and reputation that the GSD has earned over the years didn't just happen by accident - it came about BREEDERS understanding what a GSD is supposed to be, and understanding how to test and evaluate breeding prospects for those traits (through working them, in SchH, tending style herding, service dog candidates, working dual purpose K9, etc . . . ), and making breeding decisions based on those results. 

Here is a little video by a forum member who did an IPO/bitework demonstration at an event recently - some of the OB is just showing off, and not part of the routine, but it shows how well the dogs are trained, and what a great relationship is forged through the training:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...27514-schutzhund-action-working-dog-show.html

Dogs were perfectly fine to go and mix with the crowd and get attention from complete strangers after the demo - a balanced dog should be able to adapt quickly to different situations.

And from the same member (who really has a talent both in dog training and making videos!), an introduction to IPO and what it tests - lots of information packed into a few minutes, might take a few views to get it, but the video is so much fun, you'll want to watch it over and over again. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...38-ipobservations-episode-1-elegance-ipo.html


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

If you really LOOK at the schutzhund videos, when the handler sends the dog out to each blind- that is similar to herders sending their dogs out to the right and to the left to manage the sheep. From my readings and from videos I've seen, Shepherds dont herd sheep the way border collies do (splitting the herd up, moving 2 this way and 3 that way)...they stay on the border making sure the sheep are guarded, and that's what the blind looks like to me. 

They were also bred to guard the sheep from intruders at night- hence the bite work and courage tests...can't leave a dog out with the sheep at night and trust him to guard a flock alone without that right? Bite work? Shoot..someone comes to steal my sheep bet your hiney I want a dog that wont shy away from biting someone and then sticking on them when they are trying to beat him off! 

I used to think it was dangerous too---but I'm jumping full in. Why? Watch the dogs body language (the same can be said for stable police dogs too) their tail is going a mile a minute when they have that bite! It's a freaking game of tug! They just happen to be tugging on a persons arm! Having a dog that weighs as much as a small human, with pure muscle is dangerous period! (Look at maltese dogs that have maimed children for crying out loud! And they are as big as a GSD head!) Having one that is so tight on obedience? and is sound of mind too? Priceless!


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

And as far as kicking off the jumps---Those jumps are at least 4 feet high. I'm 5'3 and for me to jump it I have to boost up...an Agility jump is 26" max from what i've seen, there's a big difference!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sunstreaked said:


> I'm still confused.
> 
> First, I completely agree with what you said about breeding. Pet home / no breeding.
> 
> ...


Well I feel a large majority of our breed Is ruined in a way. Poorly bred, fearful, poor health... all in the name of breeding for "pet homes" and to line the wallet.

Do I think the majority of gsds should be in pet only homes with no type of sport or work outlet? No. You get all these people that like the look of the dog but cant handle the drive of the dog. If you can't handle a breed, then don't water it down until you can. Simply dont own it.

So what I'm really saying is Schutzhund doesnt need to matter to an owner. Maybe you do agility or rally or flyball or dock diving or whatever. And even the best breedings will produce pups simply not capable of it. But your dog should of been bred with work in mind, and for our breed a lot of that is schutzhund and other bite sports.

I also dont get your last line? A GSD should never be treated like a lab or golden because they are very different. But they were bred for different things. Labs are one of the most over bred and poorly bred dogs out there. You may not hunt, but if you want a REAL, well bred lab or golden you should probably buy from tested, proven hunting stock. Because that's what the breed was intended for

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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Well I feel a large majority of our breed Is ruined in a way. Poorly bred, fearful, poor health... all in the name of breeding for "pet homes" and to line the wallet.


I can certainly understand this concern. 



> Do I think the majority of gsds should be in pet only homes with no type of sport or work outlet? No. You get all these people that like the look of the dog but cant handle the drive of the dog. If you can't handle a breed, then don't water it down until you can. Simply dont own it.


Learning more about this breed, I see what you're saying here. I guess what I was thinking was there are so many active things to do with a dog like this, it doesn't _have_ to be sport or work. 



> So what I'm really saying is Schutzhund doesnt need to matter to an owner. Maybe you do agility or rally or flyball or dock diving or whatever. And even the best breedings will produce pups simply not capable of it. But your dog should of been bred with work in mind, and for our breed a lot of that is schutzhund and other bite sports.


I completely get what you're saying here. 



> I also dont get your last line? A GSD should never be treated like a lab or golden because they are very different. But they were bred for different things. Labs are one of the most over bred and poorly bred dogs out there. You may not hunt, but if you want a REAL, well bred lab or golden you should probably buy from tested, proven hunting stock. Because that's what the breed was intended for


Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant was that if the owner treats a GSD like a GSD, meeting exercise needs and the need for a job (which a lot of dogs don't really require), then the dog can be a good placement in a pet home.

I would never expect an experienced breeder to select a dog for me for a pet home that would be a better prospect in an actual job. That would be a bad match. As you said, however, there are pup(s) in litters that would not be suited to that and would thrive in a pet home.

I guess where I was going with this is that I don't think pet homes should be considered bad placements. I really *do* see all of yours points though and the really unfortunate amount of GSDs that are turned into shelters because the owners (and bad "breeders") didn't care/learn lends a lot of weight to what it seems you believe. (If I'm reading your words correctly.)


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Yes that's what I'm saying  if you just want an active partner but are active and will commit to training needs theres no reason a lower drive couldnt fit into your home. But if you arent willing to commit to DAILY activity and training you shouldn't own the breed

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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

THere's no reason high drive can't fit either. Guess what I did with my dogs today? Not a **** thing. It's been off an on rain, they went out to pee once and have been laying by my feet or on my couch with me all day watching football 

The only other thing I have planned for them today is sharing a bowl of ice cream for sunday night football


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

In my Schutzhund club ( though i'm not a member any more) many trainers expressed such an opinion, that, in fact, Schutzhund training has very little to do with true agression. Our dogs met our decoys with happy barks, and nobody of them was ever bitten outside the training ground. In training, the dogs were trained to hold back their emotions, and grab the sleeve when they were told to grab. Grab - release, grab - release. Many Schutzhund trained dogs would hesitate to bite a human without a protective suite. The dogs are intelligent creatures, they wouldn't mistake flesh for fabric. A Schutzhund trained dog bites left sleeve, while right hand beats him.

In *guard training* your dog is trained to destroy. The decoy plays a killer, your dog must bite whatever he beats him with. He should be able to take over from right hand to left hand easily, depending which hand holds the cold weapon. Should be able to avoid any kicks and grab the thigh at its back. Should be able to hold the decoy in one spot by running and keeping at his rear, making short cutting bites on his dear soft double part on the way. Should be able to pull and bring the decoy down to the ground and bite every time that one makes a slightest move. Should ... Enough?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

crackem said:


> THere's no reason high drive can't fit either. Guess what I did with my dogs today? Not a **** thing. It's been off an on rain, they went out to pee once and have been laying by my feet or on my couch with me all day watching football
> 
> The only other thing I have planned for them today is sharing a bowl of ice cream for sunday night football


Lol well this is true. Berlin hasnt done anything all week due to the flooding. I tried to do some tracking at the park yesterday but he was way more interested in rolling in the soggy grass.

I was really more just trying to say that even though the extreme drive, excellent sport/work prospect probably shouldn't go to a pet home doesnt mean a litter from titled working lines wont produce pups that would do just fine as active engaged pets. But we both know very well there are people who have dogs that are lucky if they ever get walked, let alone trained. These people definitely should not own a GSD.

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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Liesje said:


> I also read that they used to do a long attack where the dog transitioned from defense to prey?


The courage test consisted of the helper coming out of blind 4, running away from the dog down the center line, the dog was scent, and while in a prey type pursuit, the helper would turn and attack the dog (defense). The dog had to transition from prey to defense. It was interesting to see.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> The courage test consisted of the helper coming out of blind 4, running away from the dog down the center line, the dog was scent, and while in a prey type pursuit, the helper would turn and attack the dog (defense). The dog had to transition from prey to defense. It was interesting to see.



Ah, OK I had it backwards! I still want to see it though


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> But we both know very well there are people who have dogs that are lucky if they ever get walked, let alone trained. These people definitely should not own a GSD.


Oh wow, you just reminded me of something from when my dog was about 6 months old.

We were leaving the beach and up on the sidewalk another couple had a purebred GSD that was about the same age as ours (we asked). 

Their dog was out of control aggressively barking at us. First dog in over 3 decades I've been afraid to go near, never mind touch. The dog was staring me in the eyes (even as mine were a bit averted) and I *knew* if my hand got to close it would bite me. 

What were the owners doing? Nothing. I could NOT believe it. Urged them to get to a trainer asap. I don't know what happened to that dog, but I'm not thinking it was anything good.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I agree with schutzhund, but I also think there should be a non-visible sleeve stuff, sheep herding, and protecting sheep. I think that a dog shouldn't have to think of it as a game, I think it should be instinctual for the dog to protect what it's supposed to from what it's supposed to. Hope that made some sense.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Because a Shepherd should be a shepherd. Pets never need to be trained, but only dogs that fit the breed standard in EVERY way (and that includes drive, courage, and temperament) should be bred. If you cant handle what a true german shepherd should be, then IMHO you shouldn't have one. Buy a lab or a golden. Dont put one in a wolf's clothing
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How come most (not saying all) people on here say something to the point of "if you can't handle the drive, courage, or temperament of a gsd, go for a lab..."? 

If I got a lab, the last one I would want would be an ill tempered, frightened, non driven lab.... Labs have an extremely high drive. Are extremely obedient when properly trained. Are very courageous and have an extreme amount of stamina. 

Just drives me bonkers that people that expect the highest of breeding quality from their breed would not recommend that of another. 

And yes, I seen your later post suggesting to get a lab from good stock, I just quoted this one cause it was an example. 

One thing to remember is that shepherding is not a nine to five. You are gone for months at a time, day and night, moving from food plot to water to a new food plot (to not over work the previous) etc... Dogs go days without seeing there handler, they are expected to stay with the flock and still remain able to perform the tasks. A Chihuahua can bite on command... 

The one thing I honestly think is by far thee most magnificent trait of the German Shepherd Dog is their natural ability to to assess situations, To assess persons, to realize "is there a threat", to have a plan of action. I guarantee most of you have noticed it at one point. They know if something is wrong. Not because they are taught to or commanded to. They were expected to not eat babies, which if you have ever had dogs around birthing animals with fresh after birth on the ground, it makes them hungry as all get up. They let shepherds know when one of the flock was injured. And no shepherd I know ever went out and broke a ewe's leg and then said, K dog, tell me she is hurt. It's just natural. 

So all in all I will say, I am very thankful for those breeders who have kept the gsd in good standards. But titling is like the Bible, it is always a person's own interpretation of preset standards. What passes for one person might not pass with another, and vice versa. 
Howdy from Idaho! 
Oliver Kahn der Fasan Suchenden 
08/03/13


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