# Barking at Strangers



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

This is not an all the time behavior and I cannot seem to put my finger on what is triggering it which makes it hard for me to fix it.

Havoc is a high drive 17 month old neutered male GSD. He is fun, he is drivy, he loves to work with me. His focus is awesome given his age. A friend watched him heel free last night in a distracting loud training building with 2 classes going on at once - her comment was WOW he looks good! He does. 

But he sometimes barks at strangers and worse the majority of the strangers he barks at are kids. He has been pretty well socialized. When I had puppy parties at the house and invited kids over he really wanted nothing to do with them. I have no problem with that, he does not have to love them but he does need to be okay with them. 

I had been doing LAT (llok at that from Control Unleashed), calm walking around all people and popping treats as I said hey there goes a guy with a big hat - cool have a treat! We have done that with skateboards, bikes, cars, motorcyles, and he is fine with them. 

He just keeps barking at the occassional stranger. Last night it got very embarrassing as it happened at obedience class. I also realized that perhaps I may need some professional help as this could have gotten ugly. He was on a down stay with leash on but draped on the floor 40 feet from me. A stranger walked into the building at the fairgorunds with his small dog in his arms and his wife in tow. He walked through a puppy class and a CGC class to get to our Novice class. 6 of us were doing stays and were on the other side of the ring when he approached me to ask how to join the class.I had my back turned to the man facing Havoc and I turned to speak with him when Havoc jumped up from his down and began barking at the man and woman. His hackles were up and he took about 3 steps forward and stopped when I firmly told him NO! I did not yell, I simply walked into him and firmly told him NO and took him by the leash which was trailing behind him and moved him away. I asked him to sit which he did. I could see he was very uncomfortable. His mouth was moving forward and back which to me seemes to indicate he was really unsure. So I walked him in a circle and as I came a little closer to the guy the man began yelling that my dog had gone after his wife. I was a little suprised and simply told him that was not the case and moved further away. Thankfully our training director was in the class too and she took the man aside and spoke to him. I have no clue what she said and I don't care. 

We finished class with no further issues. Typically on class night he may see 30 different people, some bring kids, all have dogs. Havoc is fine with the dogs so I do not think he was barking at the dog, it seems he was directing it to the wife who was not holding the dog.

Later I had to go to Petco to pick up cat litter and I decided to bring Hav in with me. we did re-orienting at all the doors and walked in. A lady was comig out with her 2 teen boys and one of them tried to approach us. Havoc was fine but the mother screamed "NO - he is vicious!!!" I had never seen this woman before in my life but it was clear she did not like GSD's. Havoc did nothing, he remained perfectly calm. In the store kids were shopping with parents, a lady had a cat on a leash. Havoc was perfect. A few kids petted him and he was great.

I do not understand what is setting off this occassional behavior. I do not know if at 17 months he believes he needs to protect me from some percieved threat that only he senses from certain people? Is he simply being a teenage butthead and does he need me to continue to handle him as I did when he barked in class? Is he afraid? Are they staring at him? I could not tell that as my back was to them? 

This is a good and obedient dog who is not inherently aggressive just aloof. 

I'm lost on this and I am afraid that if it goes much further I may have a bite and lose my dog.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy, Havoc is still a young dog. Some times things happen that set them off, it could have been the man's posture or it could have been that this person was throwing off body or eye signals that you weren't seeing. The thing is that Havoc recovered, that to me is the important part. 

I don't tend to get concerned about a young dog reacting to something, I am more concerned about the recovery of said event. Yea we don't want our dogs doing dumb stuff to embarrass us, but maybe I don't embarrass easily or I just don't care what other people think. 

The lady at Petco was your typical person who hasn't been in contact with good GSD's. The guy at class, who knows for sure, it could have been the little dog in his arms eying Havoc. 

The recovery and the behavior at Petco to me is more important that him reacting in class.

Val


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OMG, Kathy! It lookes like Havoc assessed the woman as a threat to you, or she was staring him down because she was fearful of him. I'm sorry you had to deal with a yelling man.

Now I understand why the training director came over right away when she heard Anton's barking, she just had enough of working German shepherds that night









I understand why you are worried and I am anxcious (sp?) to see the replies because they will help me with understanding and dealing with my pup who is so similar to Havoc in some ways.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think poor Lezlie about died when I flipped the guy off behind his back as he left. It was very rude, but fun and Debbi lost it! 

I think to me the most bothersome part is the barking at kids. His little (big) mouth is just at the rignt level to inflict some damage if they moved wrong. 

I have never had a dog do this.

You know Havoc started this off and on about 6 or 8 months ago. So we may be seeing some similarities. My intention is to continue to tell him NO and re-direct him, stepping in front of him is a good idea too as it blocks the space and tells him it is MINE not his.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy young dogs learn from encounters like this, Not that we want them to happen but as long as it is not all the time and when it does happen we use it as a teaching program for the dog we are OK. Yes Havoc needs to learn who is in control. 

Val


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So if you are training your dog, that guy felt it was ok to approach you while class was going on? I would have let him know that while you are training,they should stay out of the area. I don't even like to walk my dogs thru a class while one is going on(we have to go along the side to get to the other class, I wait til the focus work is finished)
But in the Schh club, there are so many reactive dogs it seems crazy at times, but the handlers hopefully have control. When the dogs are working, they are completely focused on the task, though the young ones (yearlings)are not so focused, and most are intact.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

This was a just a guy off the street, he had no idea. I just happened to be the first person that noticed him I think. 

I have had 6 GSD's and Havoc is the first one to display this behavior at this age. Usually I see it at about 6 to 8 months and it seems to stop quickly. Although it is not all the time it seems to be dragging on which leads me to believe I am mishandling it or cueing it somehow. But being as far away as I was last night kind of threw a wrench in that theory. 

Wish I could get inside his head.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy I think with some of these W.German Showlines that there is a balance you have to figure out. Raya is German Showline and there are days I want to just throw up my hands. But I didn't get her until she was 8 months old, so we lost some foundation time.

I really think there is a need for these dogs for us to show a great amount of leadership. I think they some times flip between a strong dog and a weak dog. I can't really explain it, but there are time when it seems the switch just gets flipped. 

I did some training with Cheyenne at Petsmart and the one really good thing I could say about it is the dogs get use to working under distraction. It isn't a sterile environment like training places, there are strangers, dogs, aggressive dogs, people, smart mouth teen agers calling your dog, kids reaching over the fence, shopping carts, tow motors, you name it.

Sorry but if my dog is in a down, it doesn't make any difference who walks up to me, their job is to be in the down. If I need them or want them I will call them. Now when training are my dogs always successful at it no, but if they break the down, I take them right back to the place and put them in a down again. I didn't give them permission to move, so they needed to be returned to the place where they were told to stay, even if I needed to then stay closer to make sure they remained in the down. 

Val


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm with Val on this - from what you've described (and I don't know Havoc, just going on what I've read) he needs to really know that you are the leader and you DON'T need his protection unless you ask for it .. *L* .. if there's the least amount of doubt, some dogs will step in when help isn't wanted and that sounds like what Havoc did at class. If one of my dogs reacted like Havoc did (Tazer is of a similar nature to Havoc, I think - about the same age, too) I would have verbally corrected and firmly put them back in a down, and then gone right back to talking to the people. 

I also agree that when my dogs are in a down (or any stay), anyone should be able to walk up to me and not have a reaction. I'll let them know if I need them. We used to really train the stays hard back in the old days - I can remember the entire class on a down-stay (a dozen dogs or so) and my Aussie doing a recall from one end to the other, jumping over each dog. And the dogs all held their stays! We did so much proofing in those days that it was really rare to have a dog break a stay, in or out of class. Now it's hard to get people to practice a stay, it seems, and they're all so worried about the dogs breaking that no one wants to really offer stress. In MY classes they don't have a choice! *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You know Havoc is not really a leader, he is very content to follow. But like any young dog I imagine he will test the water from time to time. I also have never had a dog test, especially with people, this much at this age, it is usually done with by now. Heck Kayos will still occassionally try to pull a fast one with another dog but it is immediately corrected. She barked at people a few times during fear periods. Havoc is not in a fear period. He is being an A--hole.

Later in the same class session, we were doing downs again as other dogs were practicing recalls and retreives. He did get up and yes he was re-placed in position. His stays have been pretty solid until last week but as he had been limping with what I thought was Pano I was not asking for much thinking he might be sore. So I put him back in position for a few seconds and then released him. He may just be pushing buttons AGAIN....... 

My old white GSD did (button pushed most of his life) this but never aggressed at a person or dog - ever. This just might be Havoc's method of button pushing. He is also only the second West German Showline I have had and he just might be slower to come into himself too. 

I have taken a few measures, one I took several months ago as there is always a wait list. Havoc and I start "leadership class" at a facility in Yakima, WA, about 2 hours from here. I took Kayos through this and it is excellent. I have been on the list since July for a spot in class. Oksana (GSD07) and Anton are coming too. So it will be fun for us and Havoc and Anton get along well so it should be a fun car trip for us too. 

The other thing I have done is schedule a consult with a behaviorist in November. It may be possible I am not providing something for this particular dog. As each dog is different things I have done with the others may not be effective for this dog. So I will have a professional take a critical look at us. Either way I will always learn something new to apply and to put in my tool box. My tool box may need a wagon to pull it soon too. 

I think the idiot yelling that my dog had "gone after" his wife may have been an eye opener. If Havoc hd been serious he would have followed through. He did not and I never saw serious intent but it tells me perhaps something I am doing ior not doing is not providing something for this dog. 

Dogs........ especailly male dogs...... darn men!


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

In all of this, have you thought about you're own fleeting thought about this man? Did he maybe have an annoying affect on you, or trigger an uncomfortable feeling? Did you not agree with his dog?

This may sound stupid, and my "working dogs" become guides, but I find that they are oversensitive to my smallest emotions. My Fidelco guides have their obiedence down pat before they go into the facitlity for official training; weekly classes and one on one assesments make sure of that; but every one of my dogs has disobeyed if they felt a flicker of fear me. Some of it has been so subtle, I've really had to go back and look at myself but good.

I know I'm in control. My dogs who reside with me know I'm in control. But goodness, let me have a fleeting moment (OMG, That man looks just like that creepy character I watched last night on TV) and my dogs are hackles up, ready to defend. They know it's their job to listen and obey, but they want their pack safe.

If I'm not completely sure of a situation, consciously or not, I have found that my dogs wont be either.

This is making me to look really hard at every situation. One more lession my dogs are teaching me. 

Luv those dogs!!!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Funny I considered the same thing. Yesterday after work I took him to a moderately busy park. It is lovely and right on the river. It has a nice playground for kids and a walking trail that is about a mile around. Sometimes there is no one there and sometimes it is pretty busy. Yesterday was pretty busy with several joggers, walkers bikers and people pushing strollers and about 6 kids at the playground. We went around twice. 

There were 2 ladies walking behind us and closing on us as we had to stop to sniff. Well Havoc did the sniffing! LOL!! Havoc kept turning to watch them and began to get the concerned look that preceeds the bark. I realized he was looking because I was looking. I was looking so I could gage when I needed to move over to let them pass as they were side by side and fairly large ladies. I think Havoc saw that as mom is watching them so I have to be vigilant. When I realized that I told him let's go and he never looked back.

Went to the same park today and just got back, another crowded day. He was awesome. The only arousal I saw from him was when a ACD began staring, lunging and barking at us. Havoc tried a little lunge (no bark) himself and I told leave it and we walked away. A jogger came up behind us pushing a dual stroller and passed us fairly close, Havoc looked and immediately looked to me. 

I had been arcing on the grass to go past people but today we stayed on the path and walked right by. I think me just realizing that even that little instant pause as I think about what someone is doing is giving him the idea he needs to step up. Dog is too intuitive!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I spend all summer walking in the parks and hanging out near playgrounds (I felt stupid sometimes because people were there with kids and I was with a puppy, every day ) I never step out on the grass from the pass unless a puppy needs to potty.

Yana still barks once in a while at someone who stares too hard at her but I explain that she's fearful and the person feels superiour to her and takes it easy. Maybe, if Havoc barks and the person is scared tell the person that Havoc is just scared and unsure and you are working on that by socializing? It won't make any difference to Havoc but you won't believe how much forgiving people will be in this case. 

I was lucky to socialize Anton so much with kids, even with babies so now he loves them. Not just likes them but absolutely melts down from their attention. He lays down for the little ones and enjoys hugs and belly rubs, and he can have 3 of them petting him at once and he loves it. He's the most popular puppy at our neighborhood playground and if some kids are afraid of dogs they are encouraged to meet Anton as their first dog experience









I'm looking forward to our trip to Yakima tomorrow!!!!!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Hey maybe Havoc will bark at someone!!!!! (just kidding)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Kathy,
i am going through the same thing with Sam right now. although he is 6 months, there are some situations similar to yours. but, toddlers and children he is apprehnsive about. he barks at them. its hard since i don't have any young kids in the house or at close hand, so i have to go out an seek them. we have been hanging around the local grammer school. standing and watching, and doing OB. having kids and parents give him treats, etc. i think the kid thing takes ALOT of exposure. meaning every day going somewhere where there are kids. i do tell people Sam is apprehensive of kids and i am socializing him with them, most are understanding and are willing to participate. at 6 months Sam is also apprehnsive of strangers. i have been taking him everywhere, and anywhere. but, i found the best thing is taking him to work with me since he gets to meet a new person every half hour. its not so overwhelming meeting one new person at a time, he gets to spend time with them, and them with him. building the trust, etc. i dunno, i guess every pup/dog is different in going through these periods. i can understand your concern, i think we all just want to work through these times, and do things right so that our dogs can be social and predictable in situations. i also am taking a good look at anything i might be doing wrong, signals i am giving and not realizing. i guess you learn something new with each new dog you have.

debbie


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