# Von, vom and naming your kennel.



## Wolfen

I am a little confused about the use of "vom" and "von" in registered names of dogs. I was under the impression that "vom" means _of_ and "von" means _the_, the first in relation to a specific kennel or bloodline. I think I am wrong about the meaning of von. Can someone please explain the two terms for me? It's greatly appreciated!

Also, when it comes to choosing a name for a working-line kennel, is it smart to go strictly German or is it okay to go with something English? I see some strictly German names and some kennels that use a format such as: Dogname vom Summerview.

Opinions? Thoughts? Experiences?

Thank you!


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## Amaruq

I am NOT a linguist but the way I understand it, vom and von both mean of/the depending on the noun that it preceeds. One is masculine and the other feminine.


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## Wolfen

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqI am NOT a linguist but the way I understand it, vom and von both mean of/the depending on the noun that it preceeds. One is masculine and the other feminine.


I see males and females using vom, so I don't think it's gender-specific.


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## SunCzarina

I think in dog naming conventions, the name is gender specific to the owner of the kennel (breeder), not the gender of the dog. Confuses me too. If it helps, Otto's registered name is Otto von Hena-C. His breeder is a woman who's maiden name is Hennessy.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Info on these sites may help:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/60725.html

It does sound like there is a male/female thing but possibly we in the USA (gasp







) have been confusing the 2, from the following:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=390924


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## W.Oliver

I am sitting next to my German Au Pair, (who had never been exposed to SchH until coming to America 15 months ago), and while it is true "von" is associative of the feminine, it is more correct to think of it as previously posted, von = of and vom = from....either working for dog naming convention.


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## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Wolfen
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: AmaruqI am NOT a linguist but the way I understand it, vom and von both mean of/the depending on the noun that it preceeds. One is masculine and the other feminine.
> 
> 
> 
> I see males and females using vom, so I don't think it's gender-specific.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with male or female DOGS it is the gender of the kennel name.


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## SunCzarina

Based on what Wayne02's au pair said, I wonder why a breeder would pick one over the other.


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## Castlemaid

And I am not German, nor do I speak German, but German nouns, even object nouns, all have a gender: masculine, feminine, or neutral. As in French, all object nouns are either masculine or feminine, and the article used in front has to agree with the noun that follows. English nouns are all neutral, and the designating article is also. 

For example, in English, you would say "The table", and "the truck", and neither table nor truck have a gender - they just are. 

In French, table is feminine and you would use the feminine spelling of "the" and truck if masculine, so you would use the masculine version of "the". 

For example, the table and the truck in French becomes:

"_Une table_ (feminine), and _Un camion_ (masculine).

So not sure exactly the difference between 'vom' and 'von', but as Wayne mentioned, there is both a gender rule, and a possessive/relationship rule to the word that it precedes, and the word/kennel name in and of itself would possess gender independent of the gender of the dog, or the gender of the breeder. 

There are board members who are fluent in German . . . if lucky, we may get a real good explanation - my explanation was just to highlight the concept of common nouns having gender, a strange concept to native English speakers.


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## Liesje

In general they are used the same, the difference only has to do with the gender of the kennel name, not the dog. It's actually the gender of the noun in the prepositional phrase, which in this case is the kennel name or surname of the breeder. 

"Von" is not _th_e; _the_ is "die", "der", or "das" (and "den" or "dem" depending on the use in prepositional phrases).

It's been a while, but technically the preposition is "von" meaning from, by, or of. It is a dative preposition so it becomes "vom" when the noun is masculine or neuter. Basically it's a shortening of "von dem". If the noun is feminine, it's "von den" which both have the "n". Hence "von" or "vom".



> Quote:Based on what Wayne02's au pair said, I wonder why a breeder would pick one over the other.


You cannot really pick unless you don't care that you might pick wrong. However the German language has far less words than many other language and obviously will not include all surnames used in kennel names. In these cases....I'm not really sure how to correctly describe it since I'm not a linguist but the correct one just _feels_ correct.


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## Chris Wild

It depends on the gender of the primary noun in the kennel name. Not the gender of the dog or owners of the kennel.

Von is correct for use with feminine nouns. Vom, which is actually a contraction of von and dem, is correct for use with masculine or neuter nouns.

For example our kennel name is Wildhaus. Haus is the noun. Haus is neuter. Therefore voM Wildhaus is correct and voN Wildhaus would be incorrect grammar.


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## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> "Von" is not _the_; _the_ is "die", "der", or "das" (and "den" or "dem" depending on the use in prepositional phrases).


I was just using "the" as an example. But probably good thing you clarified, I can see I might have confused people. .


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## Liesje

Lucia, your examples were great. I was responding to this...



> Originally Posted By: WolfenI was under the impression that "vom" means _of_ and "von" means _the_


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## AbbyK9

Unlike English, German assigns gender to its nouns. There are three possible genders - feminine, masculine, and neuter. The only way to learn which word is which gender is to learn the vocabulary along with the gender so you will get it right. For example -

der Tisch - the table - masculine ("der")
das Haus - the house - neuter ("das")
die Katze - the cat - feminine ("die")

This is important to know before you ever think about whether it should be "von" or "vom" because it plays a role in that.

"Von" and "vom" both translate to "of" or "from" in English because they are actually the same word used with nouns of different genders. Example -

Abby vom Haus Schmitt - Abby of/from House Schmitt
It has to be "vom" because "vom" is a contraction of "von dem". It has to be "dem" because that is the dative case of "das" in "das Haus". 

Abby von den Blauen Bergen - Abby from the Blue Mountains
It has to be "von den" because "Bergen" is plural (it's generally "von den" if there is a plural involved)

The word "von" is not influenced by the gender of the dog, but the gender of the kennel name. 

If your kennel name is, for example, "Haus Mueller" it needs to be "vom" because it is "das Haus" and Mueller is a name. 

If your kennel name is, for example, "Leerburg", it would be "von Leerburg" because Leerburg is a name, not a word.

If your kennel name is, for example, "Blaue Berge", it would be "von den Blauen Bergen" because it is plural.

If your kennel name is, for example, "Blauer Berg", it would be "vom Blauen Berg" because it's singular and "der Berg", masculine.


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## Castlemaid

So moral of the story - check with a fluent German speaker to make sure that you use the correct grammar when coming up with a kennel name!


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:So moral of the story - check with a fluent German speaker to make sure that you use the correct grammar when coming up with a kennel name!


Or you will end up with something like "vom Schwarze-Hunde" and those of us who speak German will point and laugh.


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## Wolfen

Thank you all so much, I'll check with everyone when the time comes.


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## doggiedad

great advice.



> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidSo moral of the story - check with a fluent German speaker to make sure that you use the correct grammar when coming up with a kennel name!


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## mjbgsd

I love learning things like this, so informative.


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## BJDimock

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:So moral of the story - check with a fluent German speaker to make sure that you use the correct grammar when coming up with a kennel name!
> 
> 
> 
> Or you will end up with something like "vom Schwarze-Hunde" and those of us who speak German will point and laugh.
Click to expand...






































Or you have just solved your dog's gender confusion!
Mr. Frodo von Baggins.........


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## smerry

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> Or you will end up with something like "vom Schwarze-Hunde" and those of us who speak German will point and laugh.


So my vom Zederbach is okay  ???


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## AbbyK9

> Quote:So my vom Zederbach is okay  ???


Yup, looks good to me!


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## charlie319

My pup is Ares der Kühne Vom Überlandpark or "Ares the bold of/from Overland Park" The boy is as bold as they come when it comes to "lobbying" for treats...


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## jeremy12095

*Naming Questions*

Hello All,

I am new to the whole GSD naming, I named my puppy Holly. She is from a working class family ( no clue what that means) from an Amish Breeder.

Her parents names are 

Rustus VON Hinrichs and the mother is Tassie VOM Kalkstein.


How do I pick a cool VON or VOM name? I have been reading the posts and am very confused. I have the AKC register form and would like to get it filled out and sent out.

Any help you guys could give me would be great, Some of the names i see on this post are great and very unique.

Thank you.


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## Leika 11

Hi everybody,

I am a German national and I can *totally understand* your confusion on this matter.

But what *AbbyK9* on 01-02-2010 (see page 2) explained is *soooooo excellent* (and
*correct*) that I am just speechless. 

This man *must be* German, too. 

So if *AbbyK9* would not be a Crowned Member already, he would receive *a crown*
from me for having been *perfect in German!!!

@ *smerry: Yes, your "vom Zederbach" is ok. But you could also say "vom Zederbach-
kennel". Both is correct.

*@ AbbyK9:* *Congratulations, you REALLY did an excellent job!!!


*


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## Carter4612

Ok. I have a female GSD. Her name is Bella. The Kennel owners last name is Hord. Would "Bella vom Hord" or "Bella von Hord" be correct? I would think "vom".


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## Liesje

I don't know that the word "Hord" means anything in German. If it does, then it depends on the gender of Hord (NOT the gender of the actual person, but the gender that the language assigns to the noun). If the word Hord does not exist in the German language then I would just look at other words like it.

ETA: You could just make it Hordhaus ("haus" being a word for house/estate/kennel) and it would be "vom".


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## Germ

what would i use for Schatten-Haus? Vom? and would i make it one word? SchattenHaus? thanks!


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## Mary1990

My female German shepherd registered name is winny vom goldenfallt, but I think the IKC (I'm from Ireland) picks the name because there the ones who send the papers back to the breeders, so I dont think it's the breeders


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## Reigle1972

*If you look at a translator (from German to English or vise)you will see that Von is "Of" and Vom is "From" with no use of male or female. It's only when a masculine or feminine name proceeds the Vom/Von. For example if I named my kennel Vom Reigle Kennel it will translate to "Reigle from Kennel" or Von Reigle Kennel would be "Reigle of Kennel". Everyone here just has to decide for them self's how to use Vom/Von. I myself would choose Vom, and I think everyone here is correct in using these words as for sexuality of the owner of the kennel.*


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## Liesje

There's more to it than just deciding. Von/vom is based on the gender of the noun in the prepositional phrase and if the noun has no assigned gender (because it's not a word in the German alphabet) a native speaker can probably tell you that one just sounds better given the flow of the language. The noun genders are not arbitrarily assigned. Even having only studied the language for four years using von/vom is fairly natural without knowing every possibly noun in the vocabulary and memorizing the gender.

Von and Vom are the same thing. Usually in the context of the prepositional phrase, of or from can be used interchangeably. It's not that one means of and one means from. Even in English you can often use them interchangeably.


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## JGX2

*Naming our puppy*

We're trying to come up with a full name for our puppy's AKC registration. My understanding is that the name can contain pretty much anything? Would someone who speaks fluent German give me an opinion on whether or not this is written correctly?
"Blitzen der Kuhne Vom Haus Giuglia"

'Giuglia' is a modification of our last name..unsure whether or not to use that quite yet. Our other option is using the kennel name from the the Sire+Dam. Is that more common to use? Or do we just pick a word we like and use its translation??

Thanks for any and all opinions!


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## mehpenn

Because our dogs weren't bred in Germany, even though their lineage is traceable directly to Germany, we opted to not offer "German" names to our pups, from the kennel standpoint. 
Our pups are "Penley's blah, blah, blah." 
"Penley" being our farm, which is a combination of our last name (my married name) and my grandfather's last name, who owned and started the farm we run now, and then the owners get to pick the rest of the name. They've been very creative, to say the least. 
For example, Penley's Premiere Zee, Penley's Silver Lining and Penley's Gold Plated Impression. And then we did have one pup get named a combination; his name is something like Penley's Mack von whatever. 
Of course those are their registered names, and they each have their regular call name. Some are a part of the registered name, some are completely different.

I know it's customary for GSD's to be given German names, but we figured our dogs are American bred, and so, to us, it just made more sense to give them an American name. Of course, looking back through their pedigree's, you'll find German name, after German name, all referring to either a kennel or foundation dog. It's pretty interesting when you start breaking it down and researching it.


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## burdock87

Now I have a question here.... I have a breeder in mind for when I'm ready for a pup. They give their dogs call names, and their parents are AKC registered, but are not "German" registered with von OR vom. 

One day down the road when life has smoothed out and I know I can do it properly, I would like to breed a litter of pups. I don't want to get into an argument about breeding more dogs when so many die in shelters...I know what characteristics I'd like to breed in a litter, and if I don't find the right dogs, I will simply have mine spayed/neutered.

But... is there anything that says I have to be a breeder, or use the breeder's name when naming my dog? 

Let's say the breeder's name is Smith. And the dog is Fido. Would the dog "have" to be registered with von/vom Smith as its name, or could I name it whatever I want? Does the "kennel" have to be a breeding kennel to name the dog with von/vom? If I wanted to name the dog after my and my hubby's name (we'll say Smith, also, I guess)... could the dog be named Fido von Smith? or could I name it Fido von Whatever-I-Want ?

Just to clarify... do I have to own a sire/dam to use von/vom?


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## lhczth

If your breeder does not name the pups first and register them and does not require using a specified kennel name in the contract you can name your puppy what ever you want. Is that what you are asking?


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## burdock87

First...I apologize for how haughty that post came out. I was overtired and trying to think, and had just run a couple ambulance calls back to back. >.>

Lisa, that is exactly what I was asking. I know I can name the pup anything...but to give the pup a kennel name, do I have to have an actual breeding kennel? Or can I call the pup vom/von Anything without owning a sire/dam and actual breeding kennel? Is there any "rule" about that? (You know... the pup naming police or something? hehe)


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## Castlemaid

There are no actual rules enforced by law, but there are naming conventions. 

You can buy sire and dam from different kennels, and they come with their von/vom kennel name, as registered by the previous owner. There are AKC/North American naming conventions, and German SV naming convention, and they are somewhat different in how the kennel names are built and what is considered appropriate naming of registered dogs. In AKC naming conventions, it is considered appropriate to include part of the names of the parents and/or the names of the kennels the parents came from, and/or your components of your own name and/or the name of the previous owners. 

In the German naming convention, you will need to come up with your own unique kennel name, that may or may not have von/vom in it, and it is considered very bad form to use the kennel name of another breeder when naming your pups. I know this is all very confusing, so I'll give you some examples. I'll do it in two parts so that the posts don't get too long. 

*German naming convention*:

In the German naming convention you buy female from kennel von Drooly, named Limpy von Drooly (as the owners of the Drooly kennel bred the female and registered her in their own kennel name), and you buy a male from another kennel. Lets say the other kennel is called Bitey Kennels . The owners of Bitey kennel bred the male you bought, and they have already registered the male in their own kennel name as Squinty vom Bitey. 

If you are following the German naming convention, you will have to come up with a unique kennel name, and use your own unique kennel name when registering the pups YOU bred (regardless of where the parents came from). So lets say your kennel is called Barksalot Kennels. Your first litter will be the "A" litter, and all the pups will be registered with a name that starts with "A". You can come up with puppy names yourself and register them, or your puppy buyers can pick an "A" name that they like and suggest it for their puppy. So you can have Achy von Barksalot, Action von Barksalot, Andy von Barksalot, and so on. You CAN name your kennel after yourself, and call it Smith kennels, and register the dogs as Achy von Smith, Action von Smith, and so on. 

The second litter you would breed at Barksalot/Smith kennels would be the B litter, the third the C litter and so on. It doesn't matter if the A, B, and C litters all have different parents acquired from different kennels, the main thing is that you own the females and bred them and registered them in your kennel name because that is where the puppies come from - your kennel. This way when people see a registered name published somewhere - OFA results, IPO results, Agility Trial results, they know which kennel the dog came from and from what litter. 

For example Gryffon came from the G litter from Wildhaus kennels. His Dam is Denali vom Wildhaus, from the Wildhaus D litter that was help back for breeding. The alphabet naming convention continues on from litters bred BY THE KENNEL - not by the female used. So the Dam is from the fourth litter bred by Wildhaus. When Della (Denali) had her first litter, it was the 7th litter bred by Wildhaus, and thus the G litter. The breeder chose the puppy names and registered the litter. Owners of future pups are of course free to use any call name they wish, it does not have to be the registered name. I like Gryffon and kept it. Another member on the board here, Onyx'girl has a littermate of Gryffon, with the registered name of Gideon vom Wildhaus, but she chose the call name of Karlo for her dog, and that is what we all know him by.

There are no hard rules with AKC about using von/vom as a registered name. However, if using the German von/vom naming convention, it is considered very bad form in the GSD world to "steal" a kennel name, i.e. use the kennel name of an existing kennel as part of your kennel name. 

Some people do it innocently enough because they don't understand the German convention, and some people do it on purpose, wanting to take advantage of prestige associated by well-established, well known kennel. So for example, you may see a pedigree with a dog with a kennel name of Truehaus (an actual kennel). You may just love the name and decide to use it when you register your pups - since there are no laws and regulations on that, you can. You could register a puppy as Honesty vom Truehaus (because you think this would be a cool name) , and, AKC would accept it, but people knowledgeable in the breed would look at the pedigree, and know that Honesty is NOT a puppy from the Truehaus H litter, and would consider it 'stealing' a kennel name.


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## Castlemaid

*AKC style naming conventions.*

With AKC style naming convention, there is a lot more variation in how breeders and puppy owners choose registered names. I'm more familiar with the German SV style, so maybe others can fill in more details that I might have missed. 

In AKC/CKC (Canadian) naming conventions, different breeders have different 'themes' they like to see in coming up with registered names for the puppies they have bred. I think the conventions are also different in different breeds - but some breeders will want their kennel name worked into the pups' name somehow, or part of the names of the dam and sire. 

Litters do not normally follow the Alphabet like in the German Convention, but they often follow a naming theme - the theme could be something like race cars, or Christmas, or Pagan Magic, for example. The the breeder may want their own name worked in, and/or the name or kennel name of the dam and sire, for example - that is on reason you see such loooooong AKC style names. 

Some breeders will have some specific requirements on puppy naming, some will have only one request (keep to the litter theme), and others will make suggestions but allow the new owner to pick any registered name they want. 

I can never come up with good AKC style names, LOL - just don't seem to be creative enough! But for example, let's say that the Breeder is Smith, who owns ThunderBolt kennels, just bred Midnight Lightning Bella to Winter Thunderstorm Dan for a new litter, and they decide to make it Sport Car Themed litter - than the registered name could be something like:

Castlemaid's Midnight Thunderstorm Maserati Smith III (which I think turned out to be a pretty cool name!).

German SV naming conventions are pretty cut and dry - AKC style naming conventions are many and varied - some people work a von/vom name into an AKC style name, but I don't really get the point of combining the two conventions - just causes confusion when the whole idea of a naming convention is to have some kind of system that gives you some info in where the dog came from.


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## Castlemaid

burdock87 said:


> I know I can name the pup anything...but to give the pup a kennel name, do I have to have an actual breeding kennel? Or can I call the pup vom/von Anything without owning a sire/dam and actual breeding kennel? Is there any "rule" about that? (You know... the pup naming police or something? hehe)


Short answer: yes, you can name your pup anything - but it would be considered inappropriate in the GSD world for you to come up with a von/vom name and register a pup that was bred by someone else in a von/vom kennel name of your own. You did not breed the pup, so it should NOT have YOUR kennel name, if you are following the German naming conventions. 

When you BREED your first litter, then the pups can be registered with your own von/vom kennel name.


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## burdock87

Wow... that's a lot of information to take in! I truly appreciate all of it. The pup I get will have registration papers (I think CKC), but I think I'm given the "right" to name the pup anything I want. I'll have to double check with the breeder once I get the pup.

The last litter she had were all cars - Ford, Chevy, etc. I thought it was cute, though if I ever breed a litter, I think I would like to follow the German convention, and start with an "A" litter. I'll have to discuss all of that with hubby, but for now... I'm just waiting on my pup.


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## Andaka

Which CKC? Canadian or Continental?


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## Freestep

Is that CKC the Canadian Kennel Club, or the Continental Kennel Club? The former is a legitimate registry, but the latter is a fake registry for BYBs and puppy mills. AKC (American Kennel Club) and UKC (United Kennel Club) are also legitimate registries. Find out which your breeder is using, because if they are using Continental Kennel Club, it's a sure sign of poor breeding practices. Especially if you are looking to breed in the future--you want to start out the right way.


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## burdock87

Continental. How is it a fake registry? Is there a way to get a non-AKC registered pup and have it registered through AKC? Do they have any sort of way to prove your pup is purebred?

Now as far as naming kennels goes.... I think (at least for the moment), I'm learning toward giving it my grandma's maiden name of Daul. I thought calling it Daulhaus. Would the pups be voN Daulhaus, or voM Daulhaus, and does that even make sense whatsoever?


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## Freestep

No. the CKC (Continental) will "register" any dog as a purebred with only a photo. It is used by BYBs and puppy mills who cannot register their dogs with a legitimate registry, either because they have no pedigree, the breeder has been banned from the AKC, or what have you. Any breeder who uses the Continental Kennel Club is a breeder I would stay far, far away from. Gigantic red flag there. Keep looking. If you want to breed eventually, you need to stick with legitimate registries. AKC and other real registries will not accept CKC papers.


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## Castlemaid

It would be voM Daulhaus because 'haus' is a feminin noun (like in French), 

CKC(Continental) is not a reputable registry. We have had people here post their CKC registration papers for feedback, and turns out the pedigree was fake - easy to spot that the pedigree was fabricated if you know of some of the dogs listed, and colour genetics. 

You would think that if you are going to lie and fabricate a pedigree, you would at least half-try to make it believable by not coming up with impossible genetic colour combinations. 

I know from your other threads that you are very interested in breeding and training police service dogs - my suggestion to you is that a dog suitable for your goals is not going to come from a breeder that has CKC registered dogs - find a breeder that breeds for the same goals you want your dog to achieve, and has a TRACK RECORD of producing, placing and TRAINING dogs that end up as active working dogs. 

From the sound of it, you are not even familiar of the difference between the different lines and their different traits and temperaments. Your first puppy should be a learning/practice puppy. Not a breeding prospect. Once you've raised your pup and trained it and titled it for everything under the sun (for you to gain experience and to learn about drives and working traits), THEN you will be in a much better position to find the right pup and think about breeding for your end goals.


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## burdock87

That's good to know. I've looked into the CKC because I wasn't sure about it. The breeder I am looking at has AKC and CKC registered dogs. I figured she is a reputable breeder and sells her dogs all over the US and hasn't had any issues with them. Hmm. Good to know. Thank you!


Lucia; I was looking at one of my dad's pups for a "training" pup. His dogs are not registered, etc. The bitch has beautiful coloring, disposition, and confirmation; the stud is a white shepherd and I'm not a huge fan of his confirmation, but he's intelligent and gentle. I figured my first pup would be something to learn with. Find out what methods work, what will produce a willing partner, and what trainers I like, and who to stay away from. You're correct - I would love to breed police and/or service dogs, though I know I can't do it without the right genetics, traits, and training. I'm not looking to find a bitch to put out litters and call them K9s. 

I'm not completely familiar with the different lines, no. I'm looking into all sorts of things so I can be prepared when I'm ready for a pup of my own. I've been scouring the forums here to find out all the information I can, and adventuring off to the wonderful world of Google when I'm not sure of something; or I ask ridiculous questions here so I understand what I need to know for the future. I truly appreciate all the help I've gotten here!


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## Castlemaid

Puppy mills sell their dogs all over. All it takes is a convincing web site. Here is a website from a breeder who breeds BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with dogs - not based on fancy pedigrees and great web marketing:
German Shepherd Breeder | Police Dogs | Schutzhund | Washington USA | BC Canada

Also sells and places pups all over the US and Canada - the difference is that K9 departments come to her for dogs because of knowledge of k9 dogs, and dogs she sells actually end up WORKING as k9. Anyone can make a claim on their website that their dogs come from police dogs (somewhere back in the pedigree), or that their dogs are suitable as working dogs, but unless people are lining up to get working dogs from the breeder because they have proven that they deliver what they advertise, then it is just talk. 

Don't go for just the talk. Go for the walk. And breeding 20 litters and having one working dog in the bunch, that is not walking the walk, that is a fluke.  

More on finding a breeder, and what to look for and avoid:
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad one | Ruffly Speaking

Here is another breeder that walks the walks - don't need to brag all that much, their own personal accomplishments and the accomplishements of the dogs they have bred talk for themselves. The website makes my eyes hurt, LOL, but this is a breeder that knows working dogs, and their knowledge comes from years and years and years of working with dogs in many different venues -

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/main.asp


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## burdock87

I know what puppy mills are, though I figured this breeder was good, as her pups do go all over. I don't know where they end up, working-wise, or if they are just pets. I know my husband's dog came from them, and he is one of the best dogs I have ever had. 

Guess I have more research ahead of me. That's ok...I still have to convince hubby I need a pup of my own so he can resume training his OWN dog. 

I will definitely check out the links provided and go through the AKC website a little better. Maybe I can find a good pup there. (Now where was my Santa wish-list again?)


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## Castlemaid

The breeder may have some wonderful dogs, and the pups could very well be wonderful, healthy companions, but for your foundation bitch, you need to be more choosy - you have to know the difference between lines, get a dog from a breeder that has a track record for producing working traits, and the dogs are properly registered so that potential health issues can be tracked and avoided. 

Once you start REALLY getting into training for actual working titles, like IPO or PSA or PP, you will get a solid understanding of drives, hardness, bidability, mental balance, good vs bad aggression, thresholds, reactivity, etc. You will see that not any dog has it what it takes, and that "IT" has to be bred for. It doesn't come just from training. Some lines have been bred for "IT" for generations, and that is the background you want in your breeding dog (again, one reason to have a dog with proper AKC registration, where you can trust the pedigree).


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## burdock87

Yeah, her dogs are amazing. They are family raised and socialized. They are around a variety of animals, situations, strangers...a little of everything. Their dogs are solid animals and fantastic companions. Bullet, I think, with proper training, could be a great narcotic dog. He's not much for bitework (he was injured before training for it, and hubby doesn't think he'd hold up to the physical strain. I think it's crap - Bullet runs and jumps and crawls and gets stomped by horses and doesn't STOP). I digress.

I like the working European line. They have a nice look to them, and as their name implies, they're for working. I guess I don't really want a show dog that will have less capability for performing.

Are you Wildhaus kennel, or do you just have a dog from them? I have looked into them numerous times and have been scared by the cost of the pup, though I know a great dog with bloodlines isn't going to be cheap. The more I look into them, the more I'm absolutely in love. I want to find the best possible animal for what I'd like to train for. Now to convince hubby that I absolutely need a great dog to start with so I can build on training later on down the road.

(Oh man, I can see this argument already. Me: Hey, hubby...what do you think of.....
hubby: NO. )


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## Maximilian

Castlemaid said:


> It would be voM Daulhaus because 'haus' is a feminin noun (like in French),


In German, "das Haus" is neutral and therefore uses "vom." All masculine and neutral nouns in German use "vom." For a feminine noun, German uses "von." See post #10 in this thread for a description of this.

The gender is based on the noun, not the person or dog involved. English speakers will NEVER be able to correctly guess the gender of a noun, you must simply memorize them. There is no logical scheme to the categorization.


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## Liesje

If you use the language long enough I think there are patterns in speech, how the sounds and the words flow. Some just sound more natural than others. I don't think they are completely random. I have correctly guessed many times.


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## Maximilian

Liesje,

I agree that once a person has enough experience with German you can start to guess, there are some patterns that emerge. But is was never systematic from the start. For example, look at silverware. You have fork (die Gabel), spoon (der Loeffel) and knife (das Messer). There is no reason for the assignment of gender for these items. You must simply memorize these. And so it goes throughout the language.


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## Liesje

But the words Gable, Loeffel, and Messer are very different. I'm talking about the sounds as it rolls of the tongue being spoken, not what the words represent (items of a similar use/nature). I honestly don't know how the gender is assigned and have never studied linguistics or the history of the German language but have found that the more you use the language (spoken) the easier it is to "guess" the gender of a noun you may not have memorized.


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## Doc

Liesje said:


> But the words Gable, Loeffel, and Messer are very different. I'm talking about the sounds as it rolls of the tongue being spoken, not what the words represent (items of a similar use/nature). I honestly don't know how the gender is assigned and have never studied linguistics or the history of the German language but have found that the more you use the language (spoken) the easier it is to "guess" the gender of a noun you may not have memorized.


Huh?


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## Liesje

What don't you get? There are several categories of words or word endings in German that will make it always be a certain gender. You don't have to memorize the gender in the language to be able to correctly use prepositional phrases, etc. For example, _-heit, -keit, -tät, -ung, -schaft..._these are ALWAYS feminine. Doesn't matter what the words actually _mean_, only that they sound the same with those endings.


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## willoglen

*Help naming my puppy*

Just found and read this entire thread, and now I have a question.

First, the background. My GSD was found abandoned in the woods with his dam and 9 littermates. [They could be mixes, of course, but the dam appears purebred as do all 10 puppies (they are 8 months old now), but I digress....] The DNA test on my puppy indicates purebred.

I will be applying for an ILP number from AKC for him so that I can show him in obedience and tracking.

I was planning on naming him "Otto von Willoglen," Willoglen being a combination of my parents' names and the kennel name that I used when breeding and showing Shelties.

Will this be considered poor form? I don't want to offend any purists as I plan on getting a 2nd GSD from a reputable breeder in a few years. (I am still researching, but I am very attracted to photos of Esko vom Klammeck at Truehaus...again, digressing....) I would like to get involved in working titles at some point.

Thanks for your help! Suggestions will be appreciated!


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## Liesje

I don't think it matters b/c Willowglen are not German words. You could use the gender of the German word for "glen". Also I don't think it's poor form, I give my rescue dogs "full" names too  The name "Otto" has likely been used dozens of times so the AKC would just attach your last name or a number, so you might as well think of something cute.


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## NancyJ

So is Beau von den alten bergen correct? {basically Beau of the old mountains I think, from west virginny}


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## Liesje

German plurals use the feminine form and it's dative plural, so it's probably correct....it's been a while!


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## BoTaBe

jocoyn said:


> So is Beau von den alten bergen correct? {basically Beau of the old mountains I think, from west virginny}


Yes, the form is correct! Only thing would be that "Bergen" hast to be spelled with a capital "B" (noun).
--> Beau von den alten Bergen would be the correct name!


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## hunterisgreat

Wolfen said:


> I see males and females using vom, so I don't think it's gender-specific.


gender of the kennel not the dog


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## SpookyShepherd

It's a while still before breeding, but we're wanting to use Hawkhurst as the kennel name. Would that be a von or vom? I'm still rather turned around on what's correct... but would prefer to be accurate.

As a side note, Hawkhurst is the ancestral home of the landed "Maynard" family in Kent, England.


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## Liesje

If it's not a German word, I'm not sure. "vom" would be my guess just based on how it sounds/feels to say, or maybe go by whatever gender is assigned to the German word for "hurst" (if there is one?).


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## BoTaBe

SpookyShepherd said:


> It's a while still before breeding, but we're wanting to use Hawkhurst as the kennel name. Would that be a von or vom? I'm still rather turned around on what's correct... but would prefer to be accurate.
> 
> As a side note, Hawkhurst is the ancestral home of the landed "Maynard" family in Kent, England.


If it's supposed to be grammatically correct it'd have to be "aus Hawkkhurst" (if it refers to the village i just googled because I've never heard of it before :blush:).


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## Maximilian

SpookyShepherd,

I grew up speaking German and have worked professional jobs and lived in the US and Germany.

Resorting to the dictionary to sort this out won't give you the best answer. You want to express that your kennel is from Hawkhurst. The dictionary will give you von and aus as translations for from. You need to understand where to use each. If you're telling me where you live, or where you were originally from, you would use aus. For example, to say you come from Hawkhurst you would write "Ich komme aus Hawkhurst." However, in the title of a kennel you want to tell me where it is located so you use von.

To figure out whether you say von or vom you will need to know the gramatical gender of the noun it refers to. There is no rule in German that governs this although there are many patterns. Generally, nouns that refer to females are given the feminine gender die (for example die Frau). However, there are exceptions (for example, das Weib). If you study German you will simply need to remember the genders. For nouns that fall outside of the patterns you will not be able to guess, there simply is no rule for this in German. There isn't even a rule that governs the patterns, they are simply patterns.

However, you're luck in this case. You want to use a foreign word and in German most (but not all!) foreign words use the neuter gender das. Initially in German your kennel would be called "von dem Hawkhurst." However, German contracts von and dem to form vom. Therefore, the correct name of your kennel would be "vom Hawkhurst."

Hope this helps.


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## Maeuselchen Hasenherz

I'm not a liguist, but I'm a native speaker and this is how I would use it so that it doesn't sound „wrong“ in my ears. 


„Vom“ is actually a combined word of „Von“ an the dativ article „dem“ for masculine or neutrum Nouns, so it means „of the“.
The question to ask to get the Dativ object in a sentence would be „wem“ or in old english „whom“.
„Wem gehört dieser Hund?“- „Das ist der Hund *von dem* Gärtner.“
„To whom does this dog belong?“ -“That's the dog *of the* Gardener.“
„Von wem stammt dieser Hund ab?“ -“*Von dem* Rüden da drüben.“
„whom does it come of?“ -“*Of the* male dog over there.“
the feminine form would be „Von der“ like the medieval poet Walther von der Vogelweide.


„Vom“ is also always specific while „von“ alone can als be inspecific.
„der Hund *von dem* Mädchen“ (The dog *of that* girl) is specific, while
„Der Hund *von* jemandem.“ „the dog *of* somebody“ doesn't tell us anything about the owner of the dogs except that he or she is owning a dog. 


And then there is this thing with the given names. If the is a name after it, it is always von and not „vom“ or „von der“.
So it is „Von Schmied“ if the breeder's name is Schmied but it is „vom Schmied“ if the breeder's profession is being a smith.
That's why in kennel names „Von Waldhof“ (of Forest Farm) is right because it is the name of the farm where they breed as well as „Vom Waldhof“ (of the forest farm) hen the farm the kennel is located is actually in a forest. 



*according to my dictionary "hurst" is a little forest. so it would be "Hag", "wald"/"Wäldchen" (little forest) or "Forst".
how ever i think that the "hurst" looks a lot like a "Horst" which is the nest of a bird of prey. and a Hawk/habicht is such bird, so that would fit to.


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## Maeuselchen Hasenherz

@SpookyShepherd: Sorry that din't answer your question at all.

since Hawkhurst is a given name it would be "Von Hawkhurst" if you want to translate it could be something like "Vom Habichtswäldchen"...the original hawkhurst sounds much more badass though.


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## Nasg

Hi

I´ve read the entire thread, but my doubt persists

If I want to name my Kennel with my lastname

What would be right to use, von or vom?

1) Kennel *VOM*/*VON* HAUS NASGUEWEITZ

2) Kennel *VOM*/*VON* NASGUEWEITZ

in the two cases above, what should I use? VOM or VON?

I hope you guys can help me with this

Thanks a lot
.


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## gre0481

Not too long ago I purchased an AKC/UKC American Eskimo Dog from Amar's Kennels.

Here's how we worked it out. The breeder required us to begin with Amar's.

The Sire is Amar's Dangerous Dan, The Dam SR Touching Fame. (or Touching Flame via AKC)

We named Kizzy , Amar's Dangerous Flame to honor her parents, and kennel.

In regards to your own kennel name. If you do have a full registration, and have a litter of pups that are either UKC or AKC, or Both (Or CKC, ETC) Then you would begin your own kennel.

In regards to being a registered breeder, breeder of merit, or other titles given by different clubs, that varys.

My breeder would only allow me full registration if I agreed to show my dog. Others offer limited (Like I'm working with now), for two years, and offer to switch to full if you meet the requirements of genetic screening for various defects. This breeder is concerned for the well being of the breed. No full registration if they do not meet health requirements.

I hope this comes in handy. I've been researching. Would like to breed eventually.

I currently have a 3 mos old GSD, but due to the breeder having complications getting the sire's papers; she will not be a breeding candidate.


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## wolfstraum

I think this is as complicated as English!!!! My kennel name was done by a veterinarian friend from Germany....native speaker...we were going for an idea that followed suite of my horses names (Sheer Fantasy and Heir of Dreams - mother and daughter)....and wanted to incorporate "Wolf"....Fantasy was way too unwieldy, so we went with Dream...

I have now had several native speaking Germans tell me I should have used "vom" and others said "von" is right....

Lee


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## Ute

wolfstraum
I have now had several native speaking Germans tell me I should have used "vom" and others said "von" is right....[/QUOTE said:


> What a great name! Your informants' native speaker intuition was right on both counts because both options are the same and only differ in terms of whether a contraction is used (just like you can say _is not_ OR _isn't_)
> - von is right because it's "von dem Wolfstraum" [der Traum, masc noun changes to dem]
> - vom is right because it's simply the contracted form of "Von dem Wolfstraum" [von+dem = vom]
> 
> The simple truth is there is just ONE "V" word and it is VON!
> But it comes along in various combinations:
> - von - by itself, e.g. with just a family name (no article)
> - von + dem (= vom) as the contracted version with masculine nouns (i.e. 'von' is still hidden in there).
> - von der / von den (where you can't contract with feminine or plural nouns following, otherwise you'd get von+der=*vonr or von+den = *vonn - which would be a bit like I am not = I amn't,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> In answer to Nasq's question therefore:
> 
> 1) Kennel *VOM*/*VON* HAUS NASGUEWEITZ > Vom = von dem Haus
> 
> 2) Kennel *VOM*/*VON* NASGUEWEITZ > Von = e.g. if Nasgueweitz is a family name
> 
> Clear as mud, isn't it?
> 
> Ute


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

LMAO my german grandma is going to have a field day when I tell her my dog's name then...I "think" I got it right, but totally by accident. Since Lena was an accidental litter, she did not have a kennel name so she is now Von Mozart's Lena. My mother was a music major and Mozart is one of her favorite composers (and mine also). Oh well, she is just Lena Bean to me! lol


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## IndianRose

*Curious*

at some point in my life, I'm hoping to start my own breeding kennel. I've been doing lots of research, etc. It's not my first paper route, however, I won't breed unless I make sure all necessary lines, temperaments, etc are as perfect as I can get. 
All that being said, I'm wondering if I got my girl's name correct. I was attempting to honor both parents lines, in her case. I'll be getting a pup in the fall, his dam is from one of the same lines as my girl, his sire is from completely different line. I haven't yet picked out a name for him.....Breeder of both my pups has given me carte blanche on the names.

My female is Storm Front's Gräfin Dita von Strait - call name Dita. Is this correct?
Storm Front is a direct ancestor, Gräfin in keeping with the name theme back in her line (king, princess, queen, etc), Dita an ancestor of her sire's line. Strait is my last name.

I want to use the name Strongheart in my males name somehow, as he (and my girl btw) are direct descendants of that amazing dog and I wish to honor him (Etzel von Oeringen). Is this ok? I don't want to insult, upset, or be considered in bad form in any sense, but I so want to honor their ancestors as well. Granted, I know that it's up to me to make sure that my pups do them proud 

I think this thread has helped in such that I understand about naming the initial dogs, potential sire & dam, and I'll be able to attach my kennel name (which I haven't decided on yet) to the pups I breed. Am I correct in my understanding this?
Oh goodness - I am sorry for the long, confusing post, but hopefully someone will understand what I'm getting at. LOL


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## martemchik

The name of the dog doesn't really matter as long as you have a pedigree. So you don't need the other breeders name on your dog. The breeder will tell you if they want you to use the kennel name or if they don't care.

The line is traced with the pedigree and not always with the kennel name or the current dog's name.

For example...my dog is vom X, if I breed her, I will be able to put my kennel name on the puppies, there doesn't have to be any reference to vom X. The way people figure out what lines the puppies come from, is to look at their pedigrees.


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## breannakristine

would von or vom be correct for the following:

von/vom Valinor


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## Sadie_M

So if I purchased my pup from kennel name "C Acres" and I live next to a "Bow Creek" could I properly name my pup "C Acre's blah vom Bow Creek" or does it have to be "Bow Creek's blah vom C Acres" or should Bow Creek not be in there at all because he was not bred at "Bow Creek" that only if he were to have offspring they would have Bow Creek in their name?


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## Sadie_M

Also does "Das Wachter" translate to "the Guardian" or is "Der" needed?

Would "Wachter vom Bow Creek" translate to Guardian of Bow Creek?


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## Liesje

Sadie_M said:


> So if I purchased my pup from kennel name "C Acres" and I live next to a "Bow Creek" could I properly name my pup "C Acre's blah vom Bow Creek" or does it have to be "Bow Creek's blah vom C Acres" or should Bow Creek not be in there at all because he was not bred at "Bow Creek" that only if he were to have offspring they would have Bow Creek in their name?


It doesn't really make sense to use a German preposition with English words, so I would use "from" or "of". Generally the dog carries the kennel name of the breeder, unless the dog was co-bred.


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## RunShepherdRun

It is 'der Wächter' in German for 'the guardian'. Umlaut. "Der' is the masculine definite article, 'das' the neutral, 'die' the feminine. Native speaker here 

As Liesje said about not using German prepositions with English terms. You can but it's odd.

In England and in some American show lines I have seen the kennel that owns a dog add their name to the breeders' kennel name, e.g. "Clayfield Woodside Texaco" or "Woodside Fire Opal of Geyer" in the US, or "Alkarah's All American [with Strco]' in the UK. This is not permitted in the German SV system. It makes names awfully long and is potentially confusing. I don't like it but one can with AKC, CKC, and KC.


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## Sopilotl

wolfstraum said:


> I think this is as complicated as English!!!! My kennel name was done by a veterinarian friend from Germany....native speaker...we were going for an idea that followed suite of my horses names (Sheer Fantasy and Heir of Dreams - mother and daughter)....and wanted to incorporate "Wolf"....Fantasy was way too unwieldy, so we went with Dream...
> 
> I have now had several native speaking Germans tell me I should have used "vom" and others said "von" is right....
> 
> Lee


Not a native speaker but I believe the confusion is that you have four forms that are potentially valid, depending if dream is definite or indefinite, and plural or singular:
Von Wolfstraum = Of [a] Wolf's dream (indefinite/singular)
Von Wolfsträume = Of [a] Wolf's dreams (indefinite/plural)
Vom Wolfstraum = Of [the] Wolf's dream (definite/singular)
Von Den Wolfsträume = Of [the] Wolf's dreams (definite/plural)

(German with its cases and gender is very precise; in English these things are simply left ambiguous and an exercise for the reader to guess at and argue over. Also lets German get away with those compound nouns. Dutch is a curious hybrid that dropped most of the complexity but still keeps some of the old stuff around like, Des Gravenhage, lit. of the Count's hedge, in translation, The Hague)


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## wolfstraum

LOL Thanks for the info!!! Seems it is (can be considered!) correct....and there were 4 correct choices so everyone who argued with me about it has had cause - sorta! Several non GSD people who I have known who were from Germany, as well as a couple of judges/wives, have told me they really like the name!

Lee


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