# formal obed compromises agility?



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

my dogs have a blast running around agility courses (never trialled). i also play at some formal obed. seems to be a lot of contradictions to the training especially with the turns. does anyone do both with same dog and does it present any problems?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I really dislike reading replies that start out with "Well, I don't do the thing your asking about, but I'll chime in anyway" but, well... I don't do obedience but I'll chime in anyway.

There are LOTS of people who do both, successfully, without issue. In many ways it is no different than a SchH dog doing therapy work. The dog is quite capable of figuring out what "game" it's playing- whether that be running really fast and jumping over stuff, or staying by my side sitting on command doing the most boring sport ever.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I find that the obedience helps with the agility. Mine has gone through lots of obedience and she is focused. I think that focus helps get us through the course. As far as different commands in obedience and agility, I don't have a problem with my dog knowing all of them and using her brain. The agility instructor always tells me to let her think and make a decision....I'll be darn if she doesn't do the right thing every time


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

it is the dog responding instantly to yr body position/cues at speed around turns and choosing correctly from a variety of obstacles in its face i thought would be the bigger problem than getting sloppy in a sit or down.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I am just new to trialing in both venues but I think each one compliments the other. German shepherds were designed to excel at any activity presented to them. Eli and I are consecutively working on agility, obedience and nosework titles. Both agility and obedience teach body awareness. With ob it is close but very precise, I find that has transferred into better turns and wrapping in agility. And agility teaches them to love working the game with you, which transfers excitement into the boring game of ob. 
And I don't think the dogs get confused at all. Eli knows the difference between agility obstacles, repetitive heeling and being let loose to search. 
But ultimately, it is up to how you present each 'game' to the dog. Harsh training is going to confuse the dog, no matter which venue you are training in. I chose to do agility with him as we were losing his 'umph' with the obedience, and it worked out beautifully


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

makes sense, i have had my dog want to fight me a bit to heel on my left side when i want no side bias at all. ps i am possibly the least hard trainer there is, and the bassids know it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I will say that I have MAJOR problems with Nikon's agility because of his obedience, but this is not *because* of agility or obedience, just the way I trained. I did a lot of obedience before he started agility. I was rather impatient with his agility, and the place where I trained agility is not a competitive facility, so in a 6 week course you basically rush through all the obstacles and then start running sequences. Agility buffs will cringe but let's face it, I was the *only* person in *all* the agility classes/levels that actually competed with my dog, everyone else had "pets" and just wanted to have fun running "courses" that were basically half a dozen obstacles in a big circle. I did not do a lot of flatwork or foundation work with Nikon, other than basic jumping technique (because I needed this for clearing the 1m hurdle in SchH). Nikon LOVES agility but holy crap he basically has a panic attack if I try to handle him on my right side, lol. He gets so lost and then he starts getting anxious because to him, he's only correct on the left. I did some CPE with him but we started at Level 1 where I could get away with running my courses with him almost always on my left. If I have time/money to get back into agility with him I'll basically need to start from scratch with flatwork, maybe train him hand targets so he is comfortable on either side. He's had so much more obedience than agility and had a high level of obedience before starting agility so yes, it is an issue for us but one that I created, not one that is inherent to either sport.

Now my first GSD, I got her when she was 3 and she had already been trained on all the agility obstacles and just had basic obedience. So she was the other way around. I never had problems handling on either side or doing crosses (well she didn't really like blind crosses but was fine front and rear). When we did a herding seminar the herding judge commented on how well the dog moved in *either* direction (the first skill we had to show was putting our dog on a long line and walking the dog like a horse around the arena in both directions and almost all of the dogs could not go around on their handler's right). This dog had agility first and much more agility foundation. We did obedience too and I never had problems there, she knew heel/fuss was on the left and she did both types of finishes.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I have seen dogs have the same problem that Liesje had-the dog not willing to work on the right. My trainer has worked with a few dogs like this and while it took a lot of work to get through it, they are getting better, but it can create a lot of extra work.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks you just confirmed a theory i had, a dog will have less problem going from agility to obed than a dog going from obed to agility. 

imo and i am by no means experienced i think agiltiy is possibly one of the best foundations for any venue.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

x11 said:


> imo and i am by no means experienced i think agiltiy is possibly one of the best foundations for any venue.


I agree. If you train them both at the same time with both in mind, I think you'd be fine. My problem was that for Nikon, agility didn't happen until his obedience is basically what it still is today and I didn't keep agility in mind while doing the obedience. Also he sees a lot more pressure in training than my other dogs, he gets more +P and -R so being in correct heel position (on the left) is "safe" for him and when he's not quite sure where to go, that's where he'll try to go. With agility we just started learning obstacles, it was my fault I did not take the time to make him really understand the handling *between* the obstacles regardless of right or left.


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## gmcwife1 (Apr 5, 2012)

Mikelia said:


> I am just new to trialing in both venues but I think each one compliments the other. German shepherds were designed to excel at any activity presented to them. Eli and I are consecutively working on agility, obedience and nosework titles. Both agility and obedience teach body awareness. With ob it is close but very precise, I find that has transferred into better turns and wrapping in agility. And agility teaches them to love working the game with you, which transfers excitement into the boring game of ob.
> And I don't think the dogs get confused at all. Eli knows the difference between agility obstacles, repetitive heeling and being let loose to search.
> But ultimately, it is up to how you present each 'game' to the dog. Harsh training is going to confuse the dog, no matter which venue you are training in. I chose to do agility with him as we were losing his 'umph' with the obedience, and it worked out beautifully


We are hoping this will be our experience 

Our daughter is training our pup (9 month old) in obedience and rally first and will then move to agility when she is old enough.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually I started doing competition obedience prior to agility, however, I ended up doing both at once, and trained left and right heeling positions .

I found having a good solid basic obedience complimented the agility.

However, as an example, my sister was a die hard obedience person when she transitioned to agility, it was VERy hard for her to work her dog off her right side. The dog was ok with it, my sister, the handler had a hard time with it..This was years ago, and she is now switched breeds (from lab to paps), and is now a die hard agility person Having a good trainer , she's got a couple of the top paps in agility right now.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

wildo said:


> I really dislike reading replies that start out with "Well, I don't do the thing your asking about, but I'll chime in anyway" but, well... I don't do obedience but I'll chime in anyway.
> 
> There are LOTS of people who do both, successfully, without issue. In many ways it is no different than a SchH dog doing therapy work. The dog is quite capable of figuring out what "game" it's playing- whether that be running really fast and jumping over stuff, or staying by my side sitting on command doing the most boring sport ever.


LOLOLOLOLO Thats all I can add!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> ... (well she didn't really like blind crosses but was fine front and rear). ....


 
yr trainer lets you do them? i was always told no way.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes she made everyone try all three types of crosses several times. First she would tell us what cross to do and then after we did all three we could pick which one to use once we ran a longer sequence.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

wildo said:


> I really dislike reading replies that start out with "Well, I don't do the thing your asking about, but I'll chime in anyway" but, well... I don't do obedience but I'll chime in anyway.
> 
> There are LOTS of people who do both, successfully, without issue. In many ways it is no different than a SchH dog doing therapy work. The dog is quite capable of figuring out what "game" it's playing- whether that be running really fast and jumping over stuff, or staying by my side sitting on command *doing the most boring sport ever*.


I laughed out loud at my desk at work when I read that. You must be talking about some other kind of obedience than IPO style ob that I think is pretty cool.. Have you seen any of Vislors videos?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

x11 said:


> yr trainer lets you do them? i was always told no way.


They are becoming more and more common! I use them a lot and my trainer has actually gone to a trainer to learn more about them and when to use them so she can teach them in class.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think as long as you balance out both sides you are fine. IMO a lot of the basic work for agility and some things in obedience are the same....perch work, targeting, paying attention to body cues............as long as you're smart about it and have both in mind I don't think there should be a problem.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x11 said:


> it is the dog responding instantly to yr body position/cues at speed around turns and choosing correctly from a variety of obstacles in its face i thought would be the bigger problem than getting sloppy in a sit or down.


IMO mess ups in agility are handler errors. The dog is working off the handlers ques and if the handler is too far one way or the other I could see the dog making the decision to go where they think is correct.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

x11- like Mikko said, blind crosses are definitely becoming more common. Actually- my understanding is that they WERE common, but went out of style (my extrapolation here: perhaps they went out of style as Susan Garrett [who is adamantly against them] started winning more and more). They are now coming back in style- and wouldn't you know it- the people who are winning big agility competitions are using them. I don't think I'd want to train with someone who wouldn't let me experiment with different handling styles. Go look at all the threads I've started in the agility section about handling systems. The best (recent) advice I've gotten lately is to NOT be a slave to a system. Pick and choose what works for YOU.

RobK- Actually, I was referring to AKC obedience- specifically the CD and CDX title. I actually think that the AKC's Utility Dog title is pretty cool- articles, directed jumping, etc. That's neat. SchH obedience is pretty neat too with the aframe and panel jumps. And I think SchH obedience has the send away with the down at the end? That's REALLY neat in _very_ fast Malinois that slide to a stop.

I suppose in a way that was kind of meant as an inside joke in case ponyfarm read it. She knows that I find obedience pretty boring. I'm glad that you guys got a laugh out of it anyway!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Lol obedience is about as fun as watching paint dry!!! (IMO) I do both with my dogs, I could probably go put up to a CDX title on either of my dogs with just a little polishing/proofing. But I just cant force myself to wake up early on a weekend to go to an obedience trial lol. I like obedience because you are working so closely with the dog and I think it helps us improve as a team. I also like the body awareness involved in positions and heeling. Plus havoc needs a lot of mental stimulation and focused heeling is GREAT for that!

Odin did nothing but obedience until he was 2, never had an issue when I started agility. Havoc had strong foundation in both starting as a puppy, never had an issue with him either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't do AKC obedience but there is an obedience component to Schutzhund and much more so for SDA - lots of "alerting" the dog, then recalling to basic position during the protection tests - and that's probably why Nikon falls back on obedience/heel position. It's not just a habit from *obedience* heeling but being a non-negotiable part of protection work as well.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't do AKC obedience but there is an obedience component to Schutzhund and much more so for SDA - lots of "alerting" the dog, then recalling to basic position during the protection tests - and that's probably why Nikon falls back on obedience/heel position. It's not just a habit from *obedience* heeling but being a non-negotiable part of protection work as well.


Ya I can definitely see why that would cause more of an issue! 

It used to drive me nuts watching all of the obedience people dabble in agility, refusing I run the dog on their right because it was an obedience dog and everything had to be on the left! That was over 10 years ago though, and I see the same people now running agility on both sides I guess they figured out that their obedience dog wouldn't melt if they worked it on the right lol.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

not sure but i think some protection sports don't have a preference for what side you heel?

so if these obedience dogs are so obedient should they not be able to be directed equally left or right without issue - that would be obedience not programming.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I had the hardest time running the dogs on my left. My gsd had no issue with either side - so long as I was giving clear signals with my body. By border collie x had a harder time, she defaults to proper heel position. She still struggles on the odd sequence if it is on my right but really it was me. It took me a LONG time to adjust to running the dogs on my right lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> Ya I can definitely see why that would cause more of an issue!
> 
> It used to drive me nuts watching all of the obedience people dabble in agility, refusing I run the dog on their right because it was an obedience dog and everything had to be on the left! That was over 10 years ago though, and I see the same people now running agility on both sides I guess they figured out that their obedience dog wouldn't melt if they worked it on the right lol.



See, I don't say my dog can't run on the right because I think that will damage his obedience. I WISH he WOULD run on the right! But considering his level of training and *how* the training was done, the only context he knows is that the right is the "wrong" side and might get him serious corrections. So with that in mind I want him to have fun doing agility, so I run him on the left. I'm not worried about agility interfering with his obedience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

x11 said:


> not sure but i think some protection sports don't have a preference for what side you heel?


SDA requires left side:

"*c. **Scoring the Heeling on Leash Exercise. *The dog should always heel close to the left knee of the handler and the shoulder blade of the dog should be aligned next to the handler’s knee. Dogs that demonstrate positive, energetic, and attentive attention to the handler are very desirable for awarding full points."


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

x11 said:


> not sure but i think some protection sports don't have a preference for what side you heel?
> 
> so if these obedience dogs are so obedient should they not be able to be directed equally left or right without issue - that would be obedience not programming.


Competitive style obedience really has very little to do with actual "obedience" it's more of a precise dance than anything.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Oddly enough when I went to agility today a small pit bull wouldn't do anything unless it was on the left. I have never seen it before today. She is a smart little girl and it is beginning agility so I think that her owner can work with her.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My dog had a CD on him and was training for CDX before I even started agility. I see no problem in it. Its actually helpful because there are certain commands he knows and I know that I have complete control of him in most situations. It gets difficult when I have to "position" him before an obstacle and he's on my right (I tell him to be on my right) but he'll run on either side of me and will stay there as long as I don't say "heel." In my opinion, its nice to have some obedience on a dog before starting agility (if you're just starting out and haven't been training for both at the same time) because they just listen better and have some expectations on them.

I do have to add...I did directive jumping, and other agility introductions before I officially joined a class, so that might be why he's fine with many of the things we do in agility.

And I believe that all competitive obedience rings require a left side heel. I don't believe any require a command to switch to the right.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> It gets difficult when I have to "position" him before an obstacle and he's on my right (I tell him to be on my right) but he'll run on either side of me and will stay there as long as I don't say "heel."


In order to position mine I use the side command to get her in a good sit, then I run it with her on my right. It works because she is in the sit/stay position. Today they had me go way ahead of her while she was in a sit/stay, if I don't do it that way, she passes me up. So either she's really fast or I'm really slow


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> In order to position mine I use the side command to get her in a good sit, then I run it with her on my right. It works because she is in the sit/stay position. Today they had me go way ahead of her while she was in a sit/stay, if I don't do it that way, she passes me up. So either she's really fast or I'm really slow


Yeah I need to teach him another command for the right side...just haven't gotten around to it. A lot of it is handler error though, so hard not to say "heel" when he's not right next to me and even if I don't say it he wants to go on the left side most times. It's a blast though...I haven't been this aggravated with training since we learned to take the dumbbell. Really brings you back and you have to remember that they will make mistakes at this point. I expect close to perfection in obedience, and what really gets to me is when he doesn't listen/ignores me. Tough when starting out in agility because it is so open and so fun, don't want to squash that drive, but also don't want to allow him to do what he wants.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I have seen dogs have the same problem that Liesje had-*the dog not willing to work on the right.* My trainer has worked with a few dogs like this and while it took a lot of work to get through it, they are getting better, but it can create a lot of extra work.


I've also seen this be a problem, along with the dog being comfortable with a distance away from the handler. The default position in obedience is against the handlers leg on the left side and that's not going to help on an agility course.

Big influence of obedience vs agility is how the obedience was taught. Older strict correction based (leash based) obedience tends to suck the fun out of training with mom/dad. Also does NOT reward offering new behaviors and allowing our dogs to think for themselves. When your dog is always on leash with a training collar it's much easier to 'make' the dog do something rather than off leash training that makes we handlers figure out a smarter way to TEACH the dog to figure it out. Agility has TONS of things our dogs need to do on their own and figure out on their own with their focus on the course and NOT pinned on the handler 100% of the time. 

More *positive based obedience* with clickers/markers/treats/toys and the dogs happy attitude being a priority RATHER THAN JUST THE FOCUS BE THE BEHAVIOR (no care if the dog is slow/reluctant/hating it all... as long as they do it then that's the goal) tends to give a better overlap with agility and doing well. 

There are MANY obedience dogs that also do very well with agility. But it tends to have alot to do with the way the obedience was taught plus the handler being aware of the needs in both sports.

Interesting (and painful to watch) story I saw a few years ago at an agility trial from a guy who CLEARLY came from the obedience world and decided he could easily teach this 'agility' on his own in the yard (who needs classes!). He had some big dog (malinois? GSD? Belgian? I can't remember). He set the large dog at the start line, did a lead out, released the dog that did a wonderful job of going fast over the 1st jump, headed fast for the next (and correct jump) but was going to be ahead of the handler so the guy CALLED THE DOG BACK so they could go together. Then the guy sent the dog over the next jump (again the dog is ahead ) so the guy AGAIN calls the dog back by saying 'heel'. IT WAS CRAZY! The guy took this fast drivey dog and literally got it back into 'heel' position after each piece of equipment. Of course the run was a nightmare of off courses and refusals and confusion for the poor dog. Plus the guy was FURIOUS cause I'm sure he was so embarrassed by his dog (  ) in front of everyone. I was so pissed when I saw him leash his dog up after the run and you could see he was angry as he aggressively corrected and heeled that poor wonderful dog off the trial grounds.


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

When I got Rusti she was very heavily obedient trained from her previous owner. She could only work on one side of me in agility. Even taking her to the park to walk and get her to walk on both sides was a challenge. I jokingly said she was blind in one eye. After a lot of work, she can now work on both sides of me but she is still a velcro girl but not as bad as she used to be.


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