# Biology of a OS German Shepherd



## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I know I might start some trouble with this thread but *Shrugs*. 

See I like big shepherds, what I mean by that is my female 80 pounds and my male 90-100 pounds. I know a lot of people would disagree. I'm just curious is there anyway to take the OS shepherd and just turn its body into majority muscle ? Will that help with body issues ? 

Can a OS shepherd have a working drive ? I know they're not allowed to work but that doesn't stop them from having that drive. 

Would you buy a OS shepherd from a breeder if the parents has good health history ?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I would not buy an OS dog from a breeder, no matter how healthy their own dogs seem. I would, however, rescue an OS dog, if I found the right one in a shelter (as long as I was looking for a pet and not an agility partner). It's not the dog's fault it was bred to be way out of standard. But my money would go to support a reputable breeder.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I would not buy an OS dog from a breeder, no matter how healthy their own dogs seem. I would, however, rescue an OS dog, if I found the right one in a shelter (as long as I was looking for a pet and not an agility partner). It's not the dog's fault it was bred to be way out of standard. But my money would go to support a reputable breeder.


So what's wrong with a healthy OS shepherd ?


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## Reef LeDoux (Feb 21, 2015)

OS meaning out of standard?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Reef LeDoux said:


> OS meaning out of standard?


Oversized  But yes the same thing


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Reef LeDoux said:


> OS meaning out of standard?


I guess you can say both over size or out of standards lol


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I like them big too, but that doesn't make them functional.
Eli for example, he was not bred to be o/s, just kept growing. Mom was med size and dad was average for a male. Eli is 95lbs super lean. He has lots of drive, tons of stamina, is very athletic. We run him with the four wheeler, he does to agility, he can clear a 3o" jump from a stand still. He also can NOT do the things a smaller dog can do. Think sumo wrestler versus mma boxing. He loves agility but I fear trialing him as he has SO much body to hoist over the jumps. Jumping is no problem for him, heaving 95lbs around an agility ring going over jump after jump after jump is his problem. 
I love him, I really really do. I really wish you could have that size and keep the agility, balance and workability. I run three dogs in agility - my 60lb border collie mutt, my 65lb gsd pup (no trials yet, just training and fun matches) and Eli. He is the only one I am hesitant to trial with as he is most likely to NQ for dropping a bar. He is just too big and too long. He works his butt off, he really does, and he amazes me with what he can do with that size, but his size is just not practical for anything other than a pet and a dog to show off and say 'ya, I have a 100lb shepherd'.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Mikelia said:


> I like them big too, but that doesn't make them functional.
> Eli for example, he was not bred to be o/s, just kept growing. Mom was med size and dad was average for a male. Eli is 95lbs super lean. He has lots of drive, tons of stamina, is very athletic. We run him with the four wheeler, he does to agility, he can clear a 3o" jump from a stand still. He also can NOT do the things a smaller dog can do. Think sumo wrestler versus mma boxing. He loves agility but I fear trialing him as he has SO much body to hoist over the jumps. Jumping is no problem for him, heaving 95lbs around an agility ring going over jump after jump after jump is his problem.
> I love him, I really really do. I really wish you could have that size and keep the agility, balance and workability. I run three dogs in agility - my 60lb border collie mutt, my 65lb gsd pup (no trials yet, just training and fun matches) and Eli. He is the only one I am hesitant to trial with as he is most likely to NQ for dropping a bar. He is just too big and too long. He works his butt off, he really does, and he amazes me with what he can do with that size, but his size is just not practical for anything other than a pet and a dog to show off and say 'ya, I have a 100lb shepherd'.


See where I live there's a handful of OS shepherds. They all look a little chunky, I'm just wondering could you cut that chunky part out slim him or her down make them their body more muscle than fat and will that increase their health ? I seen a couple of 100 pound shepherds who were muscular on breeders websites and they look extremely good


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Probably my lack of thoroughness when I breezed over the AKC Official Standard of the GSD but in the section subtitled " Size, Proportion, Substance"....I did not see any mention of actually weight. I know I have seen many other standards elsewhere for the GSD which do list weight for dogs and bitches but not in the AKC standard. "Oversize" to me would suggest over the limits of the height at the highest point of the shoulder per the standard. A well muscled GSD at the higher limit of the desired limit for height could easily weigh more than some of the weights listed in other "standards".

Am I missing the weight standard in the AKC Official standards??? I noticed the SV however does cite a weight range in their standard however.


Thanks,

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ILoveBella478 said:


> See I like big shepherds, what I mean by that is my female 80 pounds and my male 90-100 pounds. I know a lot of people would disagree. I'm just curious is there anyway to take the OS shepherd and just turn its body into majority muscle? Will that help with body issues?


Not sure what body issues you're referring to, but you can and should keep any dog lean and well conditioned with a good diet and regular exercise, regardless of size or breed. 



> Can a OS shepherd have a working drive ? I know they're not allowed to work but that doesn't stop them from having that drive.


Why wouldn't a larger shepherd not be "allowed" to work? :thinking: Working drives are a function of genetics, not size. 



> Would you buy a OS shepherd from a breeder if the parents has good health history?


Depends on whether you're talking about someone who breeds FOR large dogs, or someone who breeds to the standard but sometimes has pups that end up being oversized. For me, the former - no, the latter - maybe, although I do prefer mine to be more on the mid to low end of the standard. 

Keefer ranges between 76 and 80 pounds, so he's well within the male standard of about 88 pounds (converted from kgs). Halo ranges between 52 and 55 pounds, putting her slightly below the mid-point for females. Not only is she the smallest GSD we've ever had by quite a bit, (our previous females have been from about 72 pounds to nearly 80 pounds), she is by far the most agile and athletic. I think her more compact size has a lot to do with that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ILoveBella478 said:


> See where I live there's a handful of OS shepherds. They all look a little chunky, I'm just wondering could you cut that chunky part out slim him or her down make them their body more muscle than fat and will that increase their health?


Sure, feed less and provide adequate exercise. No different than with humans.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > See I like big shepherds, what I mean by that is my female 80 pounds and my male 90-100 pounds. I know a lot of people would disagree. I'm just curious is there anyway to take the OS shepherd and just turn its body into majority muscle? Will that help with body issues?
> ...


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Probably my lack of thoroughness when I breezed over the AKC Official Standard of the GSD but in the section subtitled " Size, Proportion, Substance"....I did not see any mention of actually weight. I know I have seen many other standards elsewhere for the GSD which do list weight for dogs and bitches but not in the AKC standard. "Oversize" to me would suggest over the limits of the height at the highest point of the shoulder per the standard. A well muscled GSD at the higher limit of the desired limit for height could easily weigh more than some of the weights listed in other "standards".
> 
> Am I missing the weight standard in the AKC Official standards??? I noticed the SV however does cite a weight range in their standard however.
> 
> ...


I thought it was a weight standard I have no clue I could've sworn someone told
Me that


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> So what's wrong with a healthy OS shepherd ?


It's not that I think there is anything wrong with individual OS German Sherpherds. I have a problem with giving money to a breeder who only breeds big dogs to produce more big dogs. GSDs are not supposed to be giants. Usually if people are purposely breeding out of standard, with their whole breeding philosophy being a desire to produce dogs way out of standard, they aren't working their dogs. Many may not health test. Those things don't seem to be very important to breeders who breed for size. I think it's better to support a breeder who is very involved with the breed, titling their own dogs, etc. To me, I think those breeders understand their dogs better, and will be better at matching a puppy to buyer.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I've seen a fair number of "big 'uns" in rescue. A good friend has a trim, athletic 85# female personal dog (WGSL, originally from a breeder, came to her through rescue when its family moved), another acquaintance has an enormous 100+# male (purchased from a local breeder, though not one I would call "reputable"). We've got another beautiful sable F that is probably close to 90# in foster care right now (probably WL). Many others have passed through.

Many of them either have spinal problems or hip issues -- some minor, some not. 

Thinking through all the over-sized dogs I know in my circle, I don't think I know of a single one that doesn't have a skeletal problem of some sort by the time they are a mature adult. Back issues seem to be rampant, as are hip issues. I know _lots _of young-ish OS dogs on Adequan. Maybe I just have a skewed sample, though.

My non-expert musing on what I've seen makes me wonder if the size was bred into them before the skeletal support caught up, and there's a genetic mismatch. If one were determined to get an OS dog from a breeder, I think looking at how that breeder's dogs age would be critical. I'd _really _want to see what their dogs' spines look like on xrays around 6-7 y.o. and older. If they show lots of stenosis or arthritis and write it off to "injury" unrelated to genes, I'd be skeptical. I've just seen too many spinal and other issues in huge dogs for me to believe it's all just "life happening" and unrelated to size.

I have a few threads in the archives about my journey managing arthritis in the hips of my dear old male, when he was still with me. He was a 90# guy in his prime. I loved every ounce of his big old self with all my heart. I wouldn't change having him in my life--he was totally worth everything we went through as a senior. I really do think his size worked against him when he got old though.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I'm referring to like HD or arthritis


Those don't have anything to do with size, that's genetics.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > So what's wrong with a healthy OS shepherd ?
> ...


Ahhh i understand, see I just want a boy who is red and black that will range 90-100 pounds. I want to make him healthy a muscular but I can't do that and it's all Bella fault why I can't lol


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm referring to like HD or arthritis
> ...


I was told the more weight on the dog the more problems on the joints and bones


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> Am I missing the weight standard in the AKC Official standards??? I noticed the SV however does cite a weight range in their standard however.


That's correct - the AKC only has a height standard, the SV has both a height and weight standard.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I was told the more weight on the dog the more problems on the joints and bones


Sure, but there's a difference between _causing_ a problem, and _exacerbating_ an existing problem. There's also a difference between a larger sized dog in excellent physical condition, and an overweight dog that doesn't get much exercise. Good muscle development will help support the joints, so if your dog has HD or arthritis it's just prudent to keep it as lean as possible.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Ahhh i understand, see I just want a boy who is red and black that will range 90-100 pounds. I want to make him healthy a muscular but I can't do that and it's all Bella fault why I can't lol


Is there really that much of a difference in appearance between an 80-85 lb male and a 90-100 lb male? That extra few lbs. isn't going to deter people more than they are already deterred by the sight of a GSD. I would much rather have a normal sized GSD whose parents are health tested and titled, whose temperaments are known than take a risk on a breeder who only breeds big dogs to make more big dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I know I might start some trouble with this thread but *Shrugs*.
> 
> See I like big shepherds, what I mean by that is my female 80 pounds and my male 90-100 pounds. I know a lot of people would disagree. I'm just curious is there anyway to take the OS shepherd and just turn its body into majority muscle ? Will that help with body issues ?
> 
> ...


 What do you mean they're not allowed to work?

I had an OS female from a BYB who worked with me for years, lots of that time contracted to the city.
Sabi was 82lbs/27 inches, in working trim at 3 years old.

And my male, Bud, is well bred and I got him from his breeder. He is 95lbs/27 inches. Neither sire or dam were oversized, but he is. There are degrees of oversize. And most breeders who are focusing on size are ignoring other stuff. But any breeder can produce, like Bud, a dog that is moderately over sized without trying to.
I personally would not buy from a breeder who was trying to breed big.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > I was told the more weight on the dog the more problems on the joints and bones
> ...


Ahhhhh see nobody has ever explain that to me. Okay better question, how do you exercise a dog that has HD if your no where near any place for him or her to swim ?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GypsyGhost said:


> Is there really that much of a difference in appearance between an 80-85 lb male and a 90-100 lb male?


I've had people guess Keefer is as big as 105 pounds. That's off by 25 or 30 pounds! :wild: And my little female is WAY more intimidating than my boy. She's a pistol! :wub:


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > I know I might start some trouble with this thread but *Shrugs*.
> ...


I was told on this very forum that OS shepherds couldn't work. This is why I'm asking all these questions. A lot of people here make it seem like OS is such a horrible thing


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

There's a big difference between people who breed dogs because they are big and people who breed dogs for an actual purpose that may produce oversized offspring.

Why not just type it into the search bar and look at the hundreds of responses on this thread that has been repeated plenty of times by now..


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Magwart said:


> I've seen a fair number of "big 'uns" in rescue. A good friend has a trim, athletic 85# female personal dog (WGSL, originally from a breeder, came to her through rescue when its family moved), another acquaintance has an enormous 100+# male (purchased from a local breeder, though not one I would call "reputable"). We've got another beautiful sable F that is probably close to 90# in foster care right now (probably WL). Many others have passed through.
> 
> Many of them either have spinal problems or hip issues -- some minor, some not.
> 
> ...


This is my biggest fear with my girl she will be over sized her mom is 92 pounds the last time I saw her. I got my puppy from a BYB and she's already having issues at 8 months hips clicking sometimes she gets sore but her temperament is awesome everything about her is awesome her coat her alertness. I plan keeping her very lean


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> There's a big difference between people who breed dogs because they are big and people who breed dogs for an actual purpose that may produce oversized offspring.
> 
> Why not just type it into the search bar and look at the hundreds of responses on this thread that has been repeated plenty of times by now..


 Because I want to ask questions myself if that's okay with you


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> There's a big difference between people who breed dogs because they are big and people who breed dogs for an actual purpose that may produce oversized offspring.
> 
> Why not just type it into the search bar and look at the hundreds of responses on this thread that has been repeated plenty of times by now..


This thread isn't about breeders it's about how to keep a over size shepherd looking fit and muscular


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm not here to debate breeders or anything else I'm here to get information about OS shepherds


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

ILoveBella478 said:


> how do you exercise a dog that has HD if your no where near any place for him or her to swim ?


Walking is one of the world's great exercises for dogs and people. Steady, gentle, rhythmic exercise has loads of research showing benefits for arthritis. Exercise is one of the key pillars of managing arthritis in people _and _dogs. You need to talk to your vet (orto vet, ideally) about what kind of exercise, and how much, based on what's going on with those hips.

My vet told me to walk my old arthritic male as much as the dog wanted. The dog told me how long, and how fast. We had a silent conversation about how he was feeling every time we walked, and my job was to read his cues. He always felt better after being out moving. It loosened him up.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I was told on this very forum that OS shepherds couldn't work. This is why I'm asking all these questions. A lot of people here make it seem like OS is such a horrible thing


OK, keep the dog fit and healthy. There is no reason that a moderately OS dog can't be healthy. Bud is 13 and still active and in great health overall.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> ILoveBella478 said:
> 
> 
> > I was told on this very forum that OS shepherds couldn't work. This is why I'm asking all these questions. A lot of people here make it seem like OS is such a horrible thing
> ...


See this is what I want to hear basically that it's possible


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Unless the dog has genetic diseases like HD/ED. In which case sometimes keeping them lean helps and sometimes it doesn't make a difference because the joints are so horrible. No one here could actually tell you about your dog's condition. A vet could.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> Unless the dog has genetic diseases like HD/ED. In which case sometimes keeping them lean helps and sometimes it doesn't make a difference because the joints are so horrible. No one here could actually tell you about your dog's condition. A vet could.


Yeah the vet told me three days ago it would be very pointless to get x rays now because from now and until the time she's 18 months her hips would change. She told me to limit exercise. So how do I exercise her what do I do ? There isn't a place I can take her swimming. The vet said limit her walks


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Have you seen an orthopedic specialist? They are experts in these issues. They can even refer to canine PT. Given all your worry, I think you would be well served by working with an ortho.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Magwart said:


> Have you seen an orthopedic specialist? They are experts in these issues. They can even refer to canine PT. Given all your worry, I think you would be well served by working with an ortho.


No I haven't seen any orthopedic specialist but now that mention it I'm getting ready to look up a few in my area thanks for that


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Get a second opinion or a new vet. If I had any dog over 6 months that was "sore" and I could hear clicking in the joints, I'd get an x ray done regardless.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> Get a second opinion or a new vet. If I had any dog over 6 months that was "sore" and I could hear clicking in the joints, I'd get an x ray done regardless.


I just got off the phone with the specialist


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I thought it was a weight standard I have no clue I could've sworn someone told
> Me that


 When I first bought Nara and started educating myself on the breed, the weight range was in the AKC breed standard along with height. Later on, at some point, it magically disappeared and now only lists height standards. I'm glad the SV still contains both, so I don't think I'm losing my mind with old age. Ha!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Yeah the vet told me three days ago it would be very pointless to get x rays now because from now and until the time she's 18 months her hips would change. She told me to limit exercise. So how do I exercise her what do I do ? There isn't a place I can take her swimming. The vet said limit her walks


I disagree. Yes, she will continue to grow and you wouldn't want to use prelims done at this age to decide if a dog should be bred (not that you're intending to breed her) but an x-ray can help to rule out certain issues. 

I've might have missed a post somewhere...has the vet ruled out pano?

As for exercise - If I'm not mistaken, swimming is good exercise and easier on the joints.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Get an x ray. My OS WGWL/SL had pano at about 8 months and 85lbs. Jack was 28"+ and around 100lbs full grown. Lean, well boned and muscled. Deep chested and big feet. Diet and exercise is the key. Hydrotherapy would be good. Funny thing people would guess his weight at 125-150lbs. Jack Prince of Hearts lived over 13.5 years. The "Joker" RIP


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

See the problem Is there isn't a place around my area for her to swim so what do I do ?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> See this is what I want to hear basically that it's possible


 Let me qualify this. Buds breeder was adamant about health testing, as well as temperament and work ability. Nothing passed to breeding until it had been proven in the field. Also both of his parents were within standard, big but within standard, and both worked. His mother was a handful, but a better working dog I have never seen-except Sabs
My point is that OS or not, he came from tested and proven stock. It isn't surprising that he is aging well, and the dogs from his line tended toward longevity. Also he is moderately OS, not massive.


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## Reef LeDoux (Feb 21, 2015)

In addition to my GSD, I have a show pedigree English lab. She truly is perfect for the breed standard and EVERYONE asks me what type of dog she is. 
Some people even ask if she is a "Mini Lab" 

Labradors by the standard are not the huge dogs you see every where. She is 21" tall at the withers and 58 lbs full grown. 

With this said... the breed standard according to AKC is not the standard the general public wants or in this case even knows. 

If someone wants a GSD for a family dog/ pet they just might be better of with a larger and more relaxed OS GSD. Its really just preference


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I wouldn't want to buy an oversized GSD from a breeder, but would have no issues rescuing one, I have an OS rescue and love her to pieces. I really like the smaller GSDs, they are very agile, compact, and easier to travel with in the car. My rescue Shasta is huge for a female, she was 92 lbs in her prime and never overweight. Poor thing always was the clumsiest dog ever. Like a horse in the house. She must have good genes though because at 15 1/2 years old she still gets around pretty good.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Exercises: Try walking up and down moderate hillsides on an angle. You can do repetitive sit stand sit. Put her on a bed and "gently" push her side to side so she has to keep her balance. Do you have a playground you can go to so she can climb on the equipment. Walking up and down a toddler slide (low angle, short distance) is great for muscle strengthening. All of these things will help strengthen muscles around the hips. 

My female was diagnosed with HD by x-ray at 19 months (she's 29 mo. now). She doesn't have any clicking or show signs of pain so we have the go ahead to let her "act like a dog" no limitations. She runs like the wind and we allow moderate jumping (not repetitive jumping). 

Since you stated you have contacted an Ortho vet I would wait until after that eval and discussion before I would start any kind of "new" exercise program.

My unqualified answer to your OS question. There is a huge difference between over sized in length and height, which by nature would mean the dog would weigh more, and using over sized as a way of not saying FAT. I've seen many described "OS" GSD's that in reality were just fat. Is being out of breed standard for height an issue? In some cases yes and some no. IMO if the blood line is otherwise healthy and the dog is out of standard for height but kept lean it wouldn't necessarily be an issue. My two cents!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Springbrz said:


> Exercises:
> moderate jumping (not repetitive jumping).
> 
> 
> My unqualified answer to your OS question. There is a huge difference between over sized in length and height, which by nature would mean the dog would weigh more, and using over sized as a way of not saying FAT. I've seen many described "OS" GSD's that in reality were just fat. Is being out of breed standard for height an issue? In some cases yes and some no. IMO if the blood line is otherwise healthy and the dog is out of standard for height but kept lean it wouldn't necessarily be an issue. My two cents!


Great observation. Many of the charts give weight/height but not length. My girl is looong. and 26.5 in height. When she sits sometimes, she looks really dorky because she is not fat - but a little taller than the norm and -looong. I wish there was a length range too. She's only 14 mos and gets "more" balanced every month - but is out of balance right now.....


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

ILoveBella478 said:


> See where I live there's a handful of OS shepherds. They all look a little chunky, I'm just wondering could you cut that chunky part out slim him or her down make them their body more muscle than fat and will that increase their health ? I seen a couple of 100 pound shepherds who were muscular on breeders websites and they look extremely good


I think my dog looks great, he has barely an ounce of fat on him and tons of muscle. He also has what I think to be a gorgeous thick coat  But he still can't work the same as my smaller dogs. He can run the same distances, but the excessive jumping gets to him and I cringe to think what heaving his 95lbs over however many jumps are in a typical agility day (five runs or so) does to his joints in the long run. That's a LOT of weight to land. Also, I could never imagine anyone trying to jump out of a helicopter with him attached lol. He has no ortho issues whatsoever, he does have weak pasterns but that is an asl thing. He just turned six and has no problem being active. We live on 300 acres and he is a farm dog, obedience dog, rally dog, scent detection dog, agility dog, biking and hiking partner. But he still does not come anywhere close to comparing to my smaller dogs athleticism and agility. 
People have no idea what dogs weigh. Most people guess he weighs 150lbs haha. I was just talking to someone yesterday who was talking about this purebred king german shepherd she knew that was an amazing dog. Turned out the dog was from my breeder, I knew the dog well. She said he weigh 135lbs. The dog was the same size as my smaller boy, weighed no more than 80lbs haha.
Here is a pic of my boy in agility. I run him at 16" now because it strains him less. We do it for fun so although he can jump 26" no problem, I don't feel right with him jumping that height over and over and over.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My male is within standard for height and he has filled out a lot with maturity. When I was weighing him during his active IPO training, he was always around 80-85 at the heaviest, up until around 5 years old. I weighed him recently at 6 years old and he's 95lbs (pictured). I still wouldn't call him oversize.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you are concerned, have a good vet or specialist do x-rays. Plenty of us do "prelim" x-rays even if the dogs are not experiencing any problems. Yes, their joints change but so what? You can get new x-rays later on. Many breeding, sport, and working people get x-rays done around 6-12 months and then again at 24 months.

There is no real correlation between a larger dog having less drive or ability to work other than it seems that breeders who promote larger dogs out of standard are often the same breeders who do not actually do hard work or higher level training/sports with their dogs so they are in a sense also promoting medium or lower drive dogs. Most people who are serious about training and work want a dog that is the correct size because that size and structure is there for a reason. Some dogs in the litters may end up out of standard and that is just fine, but like Alexis has said, that should not be the breeder's goal.


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