# Black/B&Tan



## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

My friend has a bitch, black with a sable bleed through around neck and legs.. Her parents were.. Dam. Black and Tan.... Sire.White masking sable. In her five generation ped it show colours of.. Blacks, Black and tan, White's masking both sable and black.

The bitch was mated twice before to a white masking sable dog. The first litter produced. Black/sable. Blacks and Sables.

The second litter to the same dog, she produced Blacks. Black/sables and whites.

Her last litter she was put to a black and tan male. 
The owner of the stud dog is questioning the parentage. She read in Malcom willis's book, that only one dog need to be a sable to produce a sable but 2 dogs would have to carry the black to produce blacks. The owner is convinced her dog doesn't carry the black. So she questioning where it has come from.

The owner of the stud cannot get her head around the colours that they have produced. which were Black/sable. Black, Sable and Black/Tan.
There was no way another male got to this bitch.
The owner of the bitch is quite prepared for DNA testing. Question.. Do all the pups have to be DNA'd. Or can just the parents and one or two of the pups be DNA'd eg; the sable and the black.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I would think only one pup would need to be tested.. you can have two different fathers to a littler, can you?


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

Yes you can have 2 different fathers to a litter. And I think this is at the back of the stud dogs owners mind. As the owner of the bitch kept a black son from the first mating. The bitch's owner had him away from her at all times. Under no circumstances did he get to her.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Hummm... there is this site I find interesting. 4GSD - Coat Colours 


> *Example:* A Sable dog can be either _Homozygous_ or_ Heterozygous_ Sable. This means it either carries 1 or 2 copies of the sable gene. If the Sable dog had, for example, a sable parent and a Saddle Back parent, that dog would carry both of those genes - Sable, and Saddle back. The dog would appear Sable since that is the_ dominant_ gene. This dog in turn could produce both Sables and Saddle backs, since he carries both genes.
> For a Sable dog to be Homozygous Sable, it would have to have 2 copies of the sable gene. This would mean the dog would have had 2 Sable parents that both passed the sable gene on to it, and also that this dog can ONLY produce sables.​





> *The Solid Pattern:*
> *
> *
> The solid pattern is a recessive gene, meaning it is only expressed when the dog has 2 copies of the gene. Dogs that are sable, black and tan, etc, can carry this gene. Two solid patterned dogs bred together can only produce solid patterned pups. There can be solid blacks, blues, or livers.​


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

At first..The Stud own was querying both the sable and the black, she contacted a third person, who has a sable bitch, that the male went to, and they got sables puppies. So now she thinks she understands that..But she querying now the black. Where did that come from...:crazy:
So hopefully somebody here can help, and then I can show her.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I hope your friend can get to the bottom of this. Sounds like it could be mess  We have lots of breeders, I'm sure they can figure this out.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

Thanks I hope so too....


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Well first of all, is the bitch sable or black? If she produced sable pups and black pups with a black and tan stud, the bitch MUST be sable with black recessive. And yes in order to produce Black puppies the Black and Tan stud must also be black recessive. 

How does the Stud Owner know that the Stud does not carry black? Is he's been genetically tested and does not carry the gene for black then there must be another dog in the mix. 

If the only other dog of concern is an all black male, the only puppies it could have sired would be the black or the sable puppies. Those would need to be tested for sure. Although (And I could be wrong) I think that when parentage of a litter is contested the whole litter needs to be tested for registration.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

This is also an excellent resource that shows the matrix for color genetics.
Ehret German Shepherds - Canine Genetics

The combo we'd be looking at on this chart would be Sable (aw+a) with Black and Tan (as+a) which would produce sable, black and tan, and black puppies.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

this is the photo of the mum









she looks black..is registered as black, but when fur is parted you can see the sable, around her knickers and neck.
No the stud dog has not been tested.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

She certainly does look black (which is a little worrisome to me since I'm not sure I've ever seen a sable shepherd that dark), but sable is dominate over black, so in order for her to produce sable puppies with a Black and tan, she HAS to be genetically sable. 

Her previous sable puppies could be attributed to the white masking sable dog. If she is genetically black, then there is a real pickle because there has to be more than 1 father to the litter and one must be genetically sable. Very tricky. I would test the whole litter.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

Trying to get my friend to join and post, but she has a wopping headache trying to explain to the stud dog owner


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

another of her.









and sat. You can see the sable in her legs. She hasn't been genetically tested either









The litter she was in had 2 b/t's 2 blacks and 5 sables


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

yeah, you can kinda see some silver tips in there. She's pretty.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

She is very pretty! 

However it's still very difficult to tell without seeing her is it's actually sable or if it's jsut bleed through. Some genetically black dogs have some tan or red that shows through. Not really questioning, but pointing out that their can be a number of factors. Are we sure that the stud is black and tan? Some sable dogs look very much like black and tan dogs...

My advice would still be to test the whole litter. Then you will know for sure if she is genetically sable or not. If the sable pups do belong to the Black and tan stud, then she has to be sable genetically.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Check out this thread for a similar colored dog.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/110656-king-bleed-through-sable.html


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

The stud dog owner is ok about the sable in the litter now, as she's heard that only one need to carry it... But where would the black come from
as she read that both need to carry it...


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

Wow..those photo's could be her.. in fact, one of her pups from her 1st litter is just like that.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

One of her pups from 1st litter.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

well, seems that most dogs lighten up as they get older. Is it maybe the case here? Perhaps it will show more color when it grows?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

If it were me and I questioned the parentage, I'd do the DNA tests so there wouldn't be any more questions.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

crispy said:


> The stud dog owner is ok about the sable in the litter now, as she's heard that only one need to carry it... But where would the black come from
> as she read that both need to carry it...


 
The thing is, that if the dog carries sable, then the color they present IS Sable. So calling this female black, would in fact be a misrepresentation. 

I would say that the puppy is a true black sable based on the collar that he shows. Gorgeous BTW. 

So, the major concern is whether or not the stud dog could carry black. If he doesn't it is true that there is no way he could produce a black puppy. Both parents do need to carry the gene for black to have a black puppy. Clearly Mom does, but Dad must also. 

Now you could start with just the black pup for testing. But if it came back that the B/T dog was NOT the Sire, then I think you would have to go back and test the whole litter. That will address the concerns.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

She has some one checking the stud dogs pedigree for black ancestry. She is also prepared to have the pups dna'd. So is it true they both have to carry the black gene. to produce black pups. even though only 1 have to have the sable gene to produce sable. Much appreciated on all feedback.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

The way I'm understanding it is..... White recessive..... Black recessive.... A black and tan male could go to 10 black/tan females and only produce black/tan pups..Then the male could could go to the 11 female and produce a white or a black puppy if the female & the male carries that recessive gene....whew!!!! 
Has anyone heard of
there is an all black dog way way back in 1903. Roland von starkenburg
In his pedigee. Also Hektor von schwaben is a black. Would that be classed as recessive.
Has any one heard of.
Lasso vom neuenberg, uran vom wildsteigerland, jeck v noricum or arko vom huhnegrab
producing blacks


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Sable is the most dominant color. Then black and tan, then Bi-color, then black. All a dog has to have is one sable gene and they are automatically presenting sable color. A sable dog can have another sable gene, or b/t, bi, or black recessive gene. A Sable/Sable dog would only produce sable pups regardless of what they are bred to. 

A black dog can only have black genes and must inherit one from each parent. If they had any other gene they wouldn't be black. They would present physically the other gene that they have. 

Tracing a single black gene from 1903 is kind of a stretch. But if the Sire's more recent parents or grandparents produced any black puppies then the must have had a black gene and would increase the liklihood that the Sire himself has a black gene.


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## crispy (Apr 13, 2001)

You are so helpful Jklasky thank you..we have a team of about 4 this end looking through his pedigree. :crazy:


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