# A newbie question regarding GSD's



## focker (Oct 4, 2008)

*A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Just a newbie question here. How come that more and more people especially people who are from police force and even narcotics turn themselves against GSD's and instead select BM's as their daily K9? WE all know that there isa well established line between Showline GSD & Working Line GSD's? Is it true that the original breeder, Max von Stephanitz intended this breed as a working dog only and not for its looks? I've seen it on youtube and a lot of sites the difference both on looks and on drive the GSD has nowadays. Even the AKC line, has more curved stack compared to euro lines. Just a question though Smile

Here's a video to all of you guys. Hope you Like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFf0IClzVNs


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

thanks for the video, I enjoyed watching it!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: FockerJust a newbie question here. How come that more and more people especially people who are from police force and even narcotics turn themselves against GSD's and instead select BM's as their daily K9?


I think each department has a preference, generally. I sometimes train with someone who trains dogs for the state police and if you mention "Malinois" he shudders, lol. Some say a GSD is a better visual deterrent (and most of the time the dog is just their barking and alerting, not attacking) because they are usually bigger and just look scary, especially a dark sable working line. People know what a GSD is and they use the stigma of them being an aggressive, protective dog in their favor. I watch that K9 Cops show and I think so far only once I've seen a dog actually engage a suspect, all the other times they see or hear the dog and immediately comply. Now I only train with one Malinois so I don't personally know if this is true but I am also told that in general, the GSD has a clearer head (ie, not over the top drive) and is easier to "turn off" at home and off duty. 

I actually heard the opposite, that a lot of people using Mals are switching back to GSDs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Much comes down to the old principles of supply and demand.

The Malinois has remained more a true working breed than the GSD as a whole. There aren't many people breeding Mals to be pets or for show dogs, therefore as a whole the Mal hasn't been watered down like the GSD has, so a greater percentage of the breed has maintained it's working ability. Whereas in GSDs, it is really only a small subset of the overall breed population that has been maintained as a working dog. So frankly it's just easier to find a Mal with good working traits than it is to find a GSD with good working traits. 

Additionally, when you do find those dogs, 99 times out of 100 the Mal is also going to be cheaper than the GSD. So that makes 2 very good reasons for LE agencies to often look for Mals over GSDs... easier to find, and cheaper when you do. Essentially, for the same price, and maybe even a little less, you can buy either a good GSD or a great Mal.

Yes, *in general* GSDs are clearer in the head and have better off switches than the typical Mal. But while these are important things for most dog owners, and even a good number of those private people wanting dogs for sport or work, it's not a huge priority for most LE agencies.

In recent years there are many LE agencies that are switching back to GSDs after trying Mals for several years because nerves can be a problem with some Mals, and they are also more tricky for officers to handle (keeping in mind that most K9 handlers are cops with dogs, they really aren't dog trainers). The GSD also tends to have more power and intimidation factor than a Mal and, again speaking in general, is more of a thinking dog. Not necessarily more intelligent or trainable, but more likely to think before it jumps whereas Mals often jump without thinking. But again the whole supply and cost problems still exist.


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## focker (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

i find it really hard on why these show lines show up in the first place. because what they are doing is only in the "looks department" of the gsd breed. capt. stephanitz didn't made this breed for its beauty but for its work ethics.
here in Manila, I'll be sad seeing a malinois being with a police officer inspecting bags, packages, etc. when a GSd can do all of it without ease.

here are some of the pictures that i want to share to you guys, a real GSD's.








http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/asero18/jersey/jer14.jpg</a>" alt="" /> 

























videos: 

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/asero18/training/?action=view&current=monkeybar.flv
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/asero18/?action=view&current=Culverts.flv

here in Manila where I lived, we train and treat our GSD just like the original breeder intended it to be : a true working dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

I think that showlines are important. In fact, dogs that meet the criteria for show dogs (stay within the standard), and are trained/used for working is the best of both worlds. 

Conformation is more than how pretty a dog is. The angulation of the dog was specified because if there is too little or too much angualtion, the dog's stride will not be correct and the dog will tire more quickly. Remember that the dog is supposed to herd sheep all day. 

Size, if you do not stick with a standard, then smaller and larger dogs will be bred and the intent was for a medium sized dog. A dog that could guard against predators and burglars, move sheep and cattle, but not eat you out of house and home. Also, always picking the largest dogs to continue breeding is not necessarily going to net you the most healthy. 

The double coat is necessary for a working dog to insulate against cold and hot. 

As a working dog, I would think that white would not be a preferred color, at least for police work, I would find it a much clearer target if someone was trying to shoot it. For sheep herding, the idea is that it would be harder to destinguish the sheep from the dog. 

Compact feet as opposed to hare feet. Compact feet are going to stand up to rigorous work much better than hair feet. 

Producing proper conformation, so long as the standard has not changed for aesthetic reasons, ensures that the dog is capable of performing the job that it was intended. 

It is never good to simply breed free for all.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Darn, I always want to debate with Chris, but she kinda nailed it.

The Mals are much more unpreditable, more hyper and more difficult to train. I do not believe police departments are leaning heavily toward using the Mals. 

As for the OP, have you ever dealt with Mals. I have dealt with a few, and the high end performers in competition have to be kept apart from the other breeds. 

I would like to see more data regarding why you think police forces are going toward the Mals versus the German Shepherds. You made that as a blanket statement, but in our neck of the woods I see no evidence of that. 

Futhermore, my trainer works with the Milwaukee police Department. The last dog he delivered to them, a wonderful GSD, has disarmed four people with guns in the last three months. The plague, and commendation from the cops sits in his office.

Someone, named Selzer who has posted many times perhaps implied that the showline American Dog and the European GSD, are not all that different and can be mixed. 

BS, all the Police Dogs have German Bloodlines, or come directly from overseas. We just got one a year or so ago, and the darn handled had to learn German. Silly, because we have a low crime rate, but Roscoe has been the hit of Mequon, WI. And he looks like my guy, Timber..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Quote: "Someone, named Selzer who has posted many times perhaps implied that the showline American Dog and the European GSD, are not all that different and can be mixed. 

BS, all the Police Dogs have German Bloodlines, or come directly from overseas. We just got one a year or so ago, and the darn handled had to learn German. Silly, because we have a low crime rate, but Roscoe has been the hit of Mequon, WI. And he looks like my guy, Timber.. "

Timber, you can definitely breed an American Showline dog to a German working line dog if you want to and they will produce unless the bitch misses and that can happen in any mix. So, the CAN be mixed. 

I am certainly not encouraging mixing the American showline dogs with German working lines, Chech lines, or any other lines for that matter. 

Someone suggested that show dogs should not even be around because a GSD is a working dog. 

The German Showline dogs CAN and ARE used for police work. I KNOW one. To compete in the sieger show they must demonstrate their ability to do Schutzhund, protection and or herding. 

Dallas and Geneva are both top herding dogs and top American showline dogs. 

My point is that you do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The standard was set up to ensure that the physical and temperament characteristics of the GSD will meet the requirements of a working dog. Whether or not Specialty judges are judging to the standard or their interpretation of what the standard ought to be is up for grabs. 

Personally, I am partial go German showline dogs and believe that a good German showline dog would make an excellent police dog candidate, one that will go for and bring down a criminal and could be taken into a kindergarten class the next day and loved on by the kids. I am not saying that is not possible with working lines. But I think it is certainly possible with showlines because I know one.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

There are fifty million GS in the world and you KNOW a showline dog that does policework......I was always taught that if the proof in a debate is the exception rather than the norm than you make the point for the otherside. I have seen showline dogs that were policedogs also, like one out of every fifty I run into. I have been to the USPCA nationals on many occaisions and the showline dog is rare if present. With this kind of representation, I think it is safe to say the showline doesn't normally produce dogs capable of policework...sorry, but facts are different from dreams!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

On MY OWN experience. I've still not meet a single showline SAR dog, not here nor in the Latin American and European countries I've visited. In my team there had been 5 showlines GSDs and all had been eliminated.

German Showlines are not something I'd recommend for SAR. I know one dalmatian in SAR, but I wouldn't recommend dalmatians either.

I think that Mals are one of the best dogs for SAR, police and military work, ever. But as Chris pointed they are harder to handle. The line between drive and compulsion, prey and defense, sharpness and fearfulness is so thin that they are not the dog for the inexperienced or uneducated. GSDs are maybe not the best in anything, not herding, not SAR, nor therapy, but they can do well in everything without the need of the handler to be a super trainer.

PD: This post was written as a reply to a selzer post, but it was deleted.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

German showline dogs, yes, several, out of the few police dogs that I know. Cero was one. My friend bred one that is currently used as a police dog and another that is a cadaver dog. 

I do not know about the American showline dogs doing police work. 

Who is dreaming? I am saying that conformation is important, and that German showlines can do the job.

It sounds like working line fanciers are completely unconcerned about structure -- I know this is not true or there would not be SG and V dogs that were working lines. But that's what it sounds like you are saying. Structure/conformation ensures the dog is physically capable to perform. 

German showline dogs are portrayed here as fluffs that hang out on the couch all day. But they have to pass endurance tests and protection work and be capable of herding or schutzhund. 

With the prevailing working line attitude, I certainly wouldn't show up with my pretty black and red dog, even if it could knock your socks off. 


There truly is a chasm between working and show, and attitudes are such that never the twain shall meet. I think that that is sad because I like a lot about both. I just prefer the show lines. I notice police dogs out of show lines because I prefer them. Kind of like when you have a saturn you start seeing them everywhere.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

yes, they say that GSDs are #2 at everything making them #1 all purpose dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Where do people get the idea that workingline people do not care about structure??????That's another fantasy!!! Many many workingline dogs are V and SG. That is Excellent and Very Good! Also, the current German showline is slowly crossing the line structurewise into the realm of the American showline. This extreme angulation and excessive shoulder is only gotten by continuing to breed on the same narrow genepool and you get the exaggerations in type and the decline in temperament. This happened in the American showline, now if this equation is correct and the German showline is going down the same path structurally, then the temperament should be going in decline also. Has this happened????? Ask people who do use German shepherds to do work (real herders, SAR, Police, Military,etc), if they are using or looking to use either showline dogs anymore???? Do you honestly think there are none of these people who wouldn't go to "superior" structure if these dogs could really hold up. And if these dogs don't hold up, hold do you breed them into your bloodline for structure improvement without bringing in the part that doesn't hold up????? Now you have added a piece to your program that makes some of your dogs produced unable to hold up and look where your at then. I LUVVVV a beautiful dog, but if the beauty isn't noble then it is ugly nomatter what kind of stance it can walk into.
Also, if Kirschental is the only kennel that successfully mixes the two in herding, then I would definitely put them in the exception catergory and not the norm!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Working line people certainly DO care about structure, but there is a world of difference between show winning structure and practical, utilitarian, can do the job and do it well and work all day for years without breaking down structure. And sadly, those differences become greater and greater as time goes on.









Yes, some show lines can do real work well. But they are pretty much the exceptions that prove the rule. As far as having to pass SchH trials and protection tests at Sieger shows, sure they do. But as with structure there seems to be a world of difference between what is considered acceptable, much less praiseworthy, work at show dog trials and conformation shows vs regular trials. Just go to YouTube and look up the protection tests at the Sieger shows... ANY of the Sieger shows... then look up some regular SchH trials. Doesn't even have to be the big trials, any ol' plain jane club trial will do, and you will see HUGE differences in the work.

This is sad, but true, and you don't have to take anyone's word for it. Plenty of proof out there.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Chris, with all your free time







could you find a video of Seiger trial and regular Sch trial that really shows what you are trying to say? For those of us that are green with the sport, it's kind of hard to know what we don't know (or see what we don't know to look for...)

Are the differences mainly in protection or also in the tracking and obedience??


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Here's examples from the 2008 Sieger show. The performance test for the males in the "working class". These dogs are all titled (SchH3) and have seen this very abbreviated version of protection that is done as the performance tests in the conformation shows and breed surveys countless times, so this is nothing new to them.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=sieger+show+2008+working+males&aq=f

See any there that could do police work? Since this is the biggest event in the US, these are supposedly the best of the best and they are certainly the dogs getting the most breedings and thus stamping their genetics on the breed.









Compare to any working dog event: WUSV, BSP, USA Nationals, Regionals, most any club trial. Don't just look at one dog, look at several, and you can see definite trends between the types. And don't just look at the dogs but at the helperwork too. Differences in the strength and performance of the dogs, as well as the pressure being applied (or not) by the helpers are pretty apparent, even to novice eyes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1There are fifty million GS in the world and you KNOW a showline dog that does policework......I was always taught that if the proof in a debate is the exception rather than the norm than you make the point for the otherside. I have seen showline dogs that were policedogs also, like one out of every fifty I run into. I have been to the USPCA nationals on many occaisions and the showline dog is rare if present. With this kind of representation, I think it is safe to say the showline doesn't normally produce dogs capable of policework...sorry, but facts are different from dreams!


While I agree with you, also consider that show lines are way more expensive, so even if show lines were comparable as far as work, it would not make sense to use them. Also I do think that the general public has some awareness of a "show line" vs. a "working line". When I walk my GSDs, people cross the street if I have my working line (who ironically is very light in color and is only 55lbs). The neighborhood kids insist that she is either a police dog or part wolf or both and are thus terrified of her. On the other hand, they are not the least bit bothered by Nikon even though he is already taller and subsantially heavier boned with a bigger head. They see the sable dogs, especially the dark ones, and they immediately think "police dog". Since visual deterrence is such a huge factor, I would think it makes more sense to go with the dog that is dark and scary looking rather than the one that that is more mellow and noble looking.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: Chris WildHere's examples from the 2008 Sieger show. The performance test for the males in the "working class". These dogs are all titled (SchH3) and have seen this very abbreviated version of protection that is done as the performance tests in the conformation shows and breed surveys countless times, so this is nothing new to them.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=sieger+show+2008+working+males&aq=f
> 
> See any there that could do police work? Since this is the biggest event in the US, these are supposedly the best of the best and they are certainly the dogs getting the most breedings and thus stamping their genetics on the breed.


There is one comment on the video. The translation is: "Very bad work. It is a shame that those dogs work like that."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Ugh, that video is embarrassing. Sadly this year was not any better.

To clarify though, not the working class males are SchH3. I think they have to be SchH1. There were some SchH1 and 2 males this year. Still, yes, I know..... *hangs head*. They have to be SchH2 to get a second V rating and SchH3 to be eligible for VA, I think.

I asked a guy I am training with what to make of this. He just got a show line dog and he's a sport guy. I made it clear his expectations should be veeeery low. He said that while there are dogs with temperament issues, the majority are just not being trained and/or did not get the important foundation work that the sport people are so good at. He said most are fine dogs, and could have been much better. Their breeders, owners, and handlers just don't focus on this aspect, which is sad and I think demeaning to the dog and the breed. Could they match the level of the top sport dogs? Probably not, but not everyone wants/needs that, even people with working line dogs doing SchH.

It's sad that I love the breed and even these types of shows but find myself bored and daydreaming during the protection tests...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Lies, so you think that the genetic path that these dogs are following being the same as the American showline followed hasn't led to the same result????With the thinking you and this individual are subscribing to, then the american showlines are not flighty/spooky/ weaknerved....they just need to be trained more with more foundation....afterall they are travelling the same path genetically; do you honestly think the end result won't be the same even though the evidence points in that direction already. When will the blinders come off and people see that genetic harm is and has been done to these lines that training and foundation will not bring up to par for the dog to maintain its working status.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

I know absolutely nothing about American show lines, to be honest. I've only seen maybe one or two in person and have never trained with one in any form of dog sport. So I cannot speak to their genetics and breeding or how they perform on the field. I didn't mention anything about them in my posts so I'm not sure where the implication comes from. I was only referring to German show lines that are titled and simply paraphrasing what was said to me by someone that competes in the sport with different breeds and different lines of GSDs. I personally don't know enough about the sport to comment from that level of experience. What I've seen at NASS and at the Sieger Show this weekend was at best boring, more like disappointing and embarrassing, but there were some highlights.

I enjoy going to dog shows, almost more for the social aspect (not for my dogs but for myself) and it gets boring when you don't ever have much to do. So the best compromise between dog shows and SchH is a German show line dog. I'll just flip flop back and forth, most likely. My first GSD was pure working line, my new one is a show line, and my next one will be a working line. I appreciate different aspects of both and if I continue with SchH with my show line it will likely just be club level stuff. I have no intention of breeding dogs or competing seriously in any venue; I selfishly own dogs simply b/c I like having them around and training/competing as I please. Ironically my pure working line from a high-in-trial male is the one with temperament issues and lacking the drive and motivation. So yes, I do believe that laying the right foundation is crucial regardless of lines/type. Of course genetics will cap both ends of the spectrum but it's up to the owner and trainers to develop the dog to its fullest potential.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Okay Lies, I understand and apologize, I didnot know that you were uninformed about the american lines. this is one of my problems and it really surfaces on the internet; in that I take for granted when i see people post positions on the breed, I assume that they have a history of knowledge on the breed to support the position. Oftentimes, you have to see an earlier point of time, and have attended many events to have a perspective as where something is, is going, and once was. With my passion for the breed and the mediocrity that I see accepted by so many for this noble breed compared to what it should "normally" be....sometimes I forget that peoples statements (not yours Lies), are not in line with their subject knowledge. For this i apologize,but.... for my committment and passion for bringing the breed back to when there was no such thing as working and show because the show dogs could and did compete in working venues at the highest levels, I will never apologize because I remember and owned dogs that were of this caliber in the past so I know that these dogs exist. I also know what manipulations man(judges and breeders) did to create today's mess, and it has to do with genetics and not training and foundation. The mal is the top working dog today because the GS has declined, just like Irish Stters, and Poodles for what they were made to do....and for me this is a trajedy!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

No worries, I think we are really in agreement. You will not find me defending American line dogs or German show dogs as far as their ability to seriously "work". There are maybe a handful that are comparable at a high level of SchH and there are several that are amazing herders (I'm talking 300+ head of sheep on a daily basis, not moving 3 sheep around some cones at a "trial" once every few months). But beyond those dogs I think many breeders, fanciers, and judges should be embarrassed by the current state of the breed.

To me, the American lines are like a different breed, in fact I feel I know more about some other breeds than American line GSDs! I know the basic differences, I've seen these dogs show (in conformation), I know the big breeders and the top dogs...but as far as their involvement in _work and sport_, I have never seen such a thing so I can only assume it doesn't exist. I consider myself "uninformed" in that I have never owned or trained an American line dog and don't plan to.

Basically my commitment and loyalties lie with my individual dogs, period. I am trying not to get involved in the politics. I refuse to become kennel blind. I will choose my dogs as I see fit, train them and trial them as I see fit. I have nothing to prove other than bringing out the potential in each individual dog, whether it be a German show line or a working line dog. I like both and I won't choose which one is "better". I like participating in a variety of dog events and sports, and no one dog can really excel at everything so I like having different types.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

I only have a few things to say here as I am frankly pretty much done talking about show lines . I used to complain loudly about what was becoming of the American line dogs but that was years ago and the damage is now complete. Nothing left to talk about at this point as there is no desire or method that can turn that situation around. That's a done deal.

The German show dogs are now in the same predicament. The breeders of these dogs have taken those lines to the very end of the road and there is no more pavement to drive on. Even if there is a mile or so left, it is all leading to the same place anyway. There is no way to redeem those dogs by breeding on the same lines, that's all there is to it. They have pretty much bred out anything that the standard calls for and that includes conformation. Working ability and temperament is now a freak event if it happens in those bloodlines and people want us to believe that is acceptable? IMO, the only time it is appropriate to have to sift thru that much sh!t to find something of value is when your dog eats your gold ring. 

Of course, now we have to hear all the time about how the dogs are just not trained. They are SchH 3 but not trained. Amazingly, people repeat that malarkey without much consideration of how ludicrous it is. If you repeat a lie long enough I guess people will believe it and repeat it and that little marketing gimmick seems to be one people have grabbed onto. What an insult to the intelligence of anyone who understands the GSD, temperament and dog training. I am not trying to take this out on Liesje, you are simply one of the many new people who are being taken for a ride by the people spouting all this BS. The people saying this stuff are lying or ignorant or both. I am simply sick to death of the dishonesty and I WISH people would take the time to actually learn about the dogs and what they 'really' are supposed to be. It would be nice if the breeders would do the same, instead of putting all that effort into trying to "look" like they know what they are doing and making up stuff they think the ignorant masses will believe.

Like Cliff, I have seen the steep decline of the breed as a whole. People who did not see the dogs back then will never be able to appreciate the difference but you can at least believe your eyes when you see these weak dogs vs believing the lies people are telling. I've worked GSDs for almost 33 years now, as the helper as well as handling them. I can tell you, you can see pretty quickly what dogs have it and what dogs don't. The dogs who startle at the helper attacking them from the blind, always struggle with it no matter how easy the helpers try make it. You are not simply seeing a lack of training, I can assure you of that. You are seeing a lack of lots of other things that should be there though....like say, courage, nerves, drives...all those components that make up what a GSD is supposed to be. I have dogs who bite better during their first protection session than what those "SchH 3" dogs are doing. No amount of proper foundation work can make up for a dog who doesn't possess the necessary traits to do the work as it was intended.

The owners of these dogs are presenting them to the public as SchH 3 dogs and that is the criteria they should be judged on, not the many excuses and lies that come out of their mouths after another one of their dismal protection routines.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> Of course, now we have to hear all the time about how the dogs are just not trained. They are SchH 3 but not trained. Amazingly, people repeat that malarkey without much consideration of how ludicrous it is. If you repeat a lie long enough I guess people will believe it and repeat it and that little marketing gimmick seems to be one people have grabbed onto. What an insult to the intelligence of anyone who understands the GSD, temperament and dog training. I am not trying to take this out on Liesje, you are simply one of the many new people who are being taken for a ride by the people spouting all this BS. The people saying this stuff are lying or ignorant or both. I am simply sick to death of the dishonesty and I WISH people would take the time to actually learn about the dogs and what they 'really' are supposed to be. It would be nice if the breeders would do the same, instead of putting all that effort into trying to "look" like they know what they are doing and making up stuff they think the ignorant masses will believe.


No harsh feelings, I actually agree 100%.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Anne, as always........


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## 24kgsd (Aug 26, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> I asked a guy I am training with what to make of this. He just got a show line dog and he's a sport guy. I made it clear his expectations should be veeeery low.


Hey Lies,

I am confused by what you are saying. Can you provide some clarification?

Thanks,

Julie


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Julie I meant the protection test at the show, not the dog!!! I asked him how he felt about the whole thing and he was very very pleased with his dog and said he is "perfect" to him.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Over the years I have watched a rapid decline in what I consider good work behavior in the German Show lines. Each year, it becomes harder and harder to find a dog that I deem breed worthy. Keep in mind I am probably the VERY most critical of GSL dogs. 

Without sounding boastful or a braggart, okay, just a bit...there are still GSL out there in the hands of breeders who RECOGNIZE and are DOING something about the lack of working ability in the dog. The hardest part is finding another dog to breed to that has IT ALL. A true GSD, not labeled by working or showing, but a dog that has the correct temperament for the job. 

My female's first litter is due to turn 2 in Sept this year. Two of the pups from that litter will be certified in SAR in the fall. Additionally, one of those pups has been an active Narcotics Detection K9 in a NYS county Sheriff Dept, since Oct 08. He will be graduating fully active Narcotics/patrol/apprehension in June this year. 

My female is due to whelp in about 3 weeks with her second litter. She was bred to a V rated SchH3 IPO3 FH2 FR PPD, who happens to be 100% German show line. I KNOW how hard it is to believe that there ARE breeders out there that breed for the complete dog and not the pretty prance around a ring kind of dog. We are out here! and we are striving to increase the working temperament. 

Our biggest issue, or at least my biggest issue has been finding males who really are the complete dog. After this litter the next breeding (next year) will most likely be between my show line female and a working line male. Unless, I can find another GSL stud who REALLY can work, has produced such, AND is owned by someone who understands and appreciates HOT.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaire AND is owned by someone who understands and appreciates HOT.


Ugh, there's another biggy for me. So much buying, selling, importing, leasing, brokering..... doesn't anyone just take pride in their OWN dogs anymore?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Dee, you thought process is on the right track in introducing a working line dog with the high conformation structure....why would you even consider another showline dog no matter what the physical/mental attributes, when you will still be furthering the genetic bottlenecking of the breed . The showlines are what they are as a result of too much linebredding on the same dogs for 30 odd years now....if you go to a typical showline for this breeding no matter what the temperament it will further strengthen all the recssives of the showlines from over the years. Many SL breeders are trying to breed for temperament, but as long as the genetics are just another variation of the dogs that are so pathetic in the Seiger show....then it will not improve!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Many SL breeders are trying to breed for temperament


Maybe this is part of the problem, their idea of "temperament" is not the same as working line people. With the way some SL people applaud and praise some of the dogs' "bitework", I wonder if they've ever even _seen_ a proper Schutzhund dog. I hate to say something like that, but based on the cheering and applause I saw/heard in person at the Seiger show and what dogs and subpar "work" was being applauded, it makes me wonder..... They need to raise the bar, the minimum standard is WAY too low. And they shouldn't wait until they are forced by tighter rules.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

But that goes back to the proper foundation training, TD, helper in the club they belong to, No?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Yep, and actually caring how the dog performs as far as his drive and his work.

When I go to a show and hear lots of people applaud and cheer a dog that was mediocre at best, more like hanging on by a tooth and then looking around at the crowd and the handler with his tongue lolling instead of guarding the helper....I can only assume that the applause means those people think that is acceptable. So if that's acceptable for them, I doubt they are really investing that much in good training. You can look around on YouTube and find videos of 6 month old puppies just getting on a sleeve and doing better work than what we saw as a whole at the show. The few dogs that looked good, you could see a difference in attitude in how their owners/handlers carried themselves and performed the test.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Cliftonanderson,

You are right about bottlenecking, in MOST SL. That is part of the reason why I am going to a working line male after this current breeding. 

I chose the male my female is currently bred to because there isn't any common ancestor between them until the 5th generation, PLUS, he actually happens to be an EXTREMELY well balanced EXCEPTIONALLY well temperamented dog. Which combined with my female, and all the schutzhund gods willing, these two will produce exactly what I look for in a GSD. Not a show line GSD, not a working line GSD, but what every GSD SHOULD be. 

I happen to really like the line behind my female. The working ability has shown itself through her line for many years. She is trained like a working dog, treated like a working dog, trialed like a working dog, and is expected to work like a working dog. She just happens to be black and red. 

Your comment about temperament is very valid. I do NOT enter into breeding lightly. My female is 5 years old, and has only had one litter, with one due in a few weeks. I have spent years since the day she was born looking to who I would breed her to, when and if the time came that she was deemed breed worthy. I chose the currently stud, for more than his temperament. He has a list of working accomplishments behind him that a lot of working line dogs wish they had. In 2007, he was the ONLY GSD on the USA French Ring team. 

Nothing ticks me off more than what show line breeders and owners accept for working behavior. It is a total disservice to the breed. For too long breeders have watered this exceptional breed down to fancy golden retrievers. For too long mediocre work has been accepted, and expected by too many. 

I do not look to the show ring for breeding material. I do not even look to the show ring to see progeny. I watch what goes on at the training of working dog clubs and I go to working dog trials to observe dogs I am interested in. I won't even look at dog that was sent away for training and titles. I need to know what went into the training of the dog I am interested in. However, I am not the typical show line person, as I prefer to say I am a handler owner trainer of GSDs. The show ring is a necessary evil ONLY for the breed survey, as far as I am concerned.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Dee do you think it will become more common for breeders to cross lines? I noticed Heidi Theis is breeding her female to a Pohranicni Straze male.

I respect people like you value the entire process and don't just see titling as a means to an end.

I am trying to learn more about this because I love working lines and some show lines.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Liesje,

I wish I had a definite answer for this. I know for me it has taken 5 years of looking ahead and having people (breeders, trainers, handlers, and helpers) I trust on the look out for males they think would be right for my female. That is just the beginning. There is so much to know on the ancestry that is so important when crossing. On top of that, even though the working lines aren't bottlenecked, there are some lines that are heavily line bred. It isn't just enough to breed the two dogs. You need to be committed to take a female from that breeding, train, trial, and title and THEN see what comes of that initial cross after the female is then bred back to a strong show line male. Which brings us back to the initial problem of finding good show line males. It is a gamble, even for an experienced breeder. 

The other part of this is, the majority of people looking to purchase show line dogs, either want what they are told will be a mild companion or they want to show the dog. If a SL X with WL produces what you want by bringing in drive, temperament, genetic grip behavior etc. EVEN with a WL with outstanding SG or V conformation, from what I have seen, you get more of a WL looking dog, which is FINE with me. As long as the working ability I am looking for is present. A good working dog, is a good working dog, no matter the pedigree or color. However, those who are stuck on thinking the SL is the "perfect example of the GSD standard" are NOT interested in the litter produced, UNLESS they are really looking to work the dog.

I think that is why we won't see too many breeders taking the chance. They don't have a market for these type of dogs. 

Heidi is an OUTSTANDING breeder who I am sure, like myself, has really taken a long hard look at what her ultimate goal is for her breeding program. When you look at your female, with eyes wide open, and then begin your list of what you need to add to her or take away from her, you have a nice list. Then you look at what is out there stud wise. I am sure Heidi has been as disappointed as I have been. That's when you really see the value you bring to the breed as a whole. Are you just breeding to produce puppies? or are you breeding to produce the best you can, improving YOUR line? Are you breeding for you, or to the market? Those breeders who breed for themselves and not to a market, tend breed what is correct, IMO. 

I already know with my upcoming litter, that the typical show line fancier is not going to be interested in this litter. Neither dog is typical of the normal GSL. That's fine with me, I have no regrets. This breeding is for me. It is for me to find my next competition dog and I have no doubt that if the female I keep from this litter is everything I am praying for, once she is titled & breed surveyed, she will be bred to a WL male. My goal has always been for the dogs I produce to be of correct temperament, and have the ability to work. So far, KNOCK on wood, I have done that. 

A very wise German woman once told me, "Do not be limited by the labels others will put on your dog. Instead leave them saying, 'Now, that's a GSD!' " I still believe she was right. We should strive to produce a German Shepherd Dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaire
> I think that is why we won't see too many breeders taking the chance. They don't have a market for these type of dogs.


I guess I should have thought of this, lol. I suppose it could be said of me, I got a SL dog and I don't regret doing it and I don't feel that I have to constantly justify why I have which dogs. He is exactly what I wanted and he's doing exactly as I had hoped for in the areas that I planned to train/show him. I am so new to dogs that for me, the process is more important than getting to the final goal. I like to dabble in a lot of different things and am not too concerned with excelling in any one of them. What I want in a dog today might change into something totally different if I get another dog in a few years. In fact I'll probably get a working line dog next. At the moment there's things I like about both and don't have a problem flip-flopping. It's not to say that I'm unhappy with my SL and now want something else. I love my working line bitch, my show line male, and my dumb-as-nails rescue mutt. The whole thing is like Macs vs. PCs, lol. I have both and I love both!! They don't have to be mutually exclusive as long as we're all honest about each one and not trying to pass them off as something they're not.

FWIW, I have no plans to breed him or any other dogs and if I did, I would hope that if his bitework was no better than the average of what I saw on Saturday I would know better than to even show up. I'd probably rather not title and show in the open class at club shows than present something subpar as "working class".


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Ok, I have a question and will ask it. First let me say I do not show or title my dogs ( and I know this makes me a sorry person in some people's eyes) so I have no biases in asking this. Suppose for moment I bred a line of dogs that are built upon the bloodlines from the "golden years" of German shepherds in the US - the 1960's. I know some in here are not old enough to remember some of those dogs while others do. Let's look back at dogs such as US Ch Pfeffer v Bern, US Ch Odin v BuseckerSchloss, GS US Ch Arras a.d. Stadt-Verbert, Bernd von Kallengarten, Troll von Ricterbach, Vol of LongWorth, Nyx of LongWorth, and say VA Condor vom Zollgrenzschutz. All of these dogs were recognized as the best in their day. IF I produced a dog or litter out of these bloodlines with correct conformation, temperament, etc, where would they excel? Obviously they are not low riding rump draggers in the ring, and may not posses the knock down and grip that is found in the "working lines" of today. But in their day, these dogs were German shepherds - period. Not classified as one type or another.

The sad commentary is that these "old" lines are dying off and being replaced with lines built upon a limited gene pool. Over-breeding on particular lines is to the point of no return I am afraid. And until all organizations/judges/breeders in both camps admit that, things will continue to decline. In the show lines - where are the LongWorth, RockyReach, San Miguel, Bauerhoffen bloodlines? And for working lines, what happened to the Olderhill and Osnabrucker lines and the lines out of the Ensomhed and Emmview Kennels? They have all been lost.

Lloyd Brackett said it best when he said " physical compensation is the foundation rock upon which all enduring worth must be built". And until we get back to "one" german shepherd that can show and work the versitility of the German shepherd will continue to diverge into specialized areas. A most unfortunate path to take this outstanding breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Dee, i have new found respect for you after your post as it reflects careful deliberate calculation on your path for the breed based on your dogs being able to do what GS should do. Kudos, and I'm sure you have been on this journey I just didn't realize it!

Doc, I am very familar with the dogs and lines of which you speak....I think these type dogs go up to the earlt 70's with Bernd and Marko also being cut out of the cloth that could work and show...unfortunately the show barometer was changed by the Martin Brothers in Germany and the Fran-jo line in America and the reputable nonworking people all drank the Kool-aid!!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Mr. cliftonanderson1 it is comforting to know someone has seen these wonderful dogs.

Rest assured, I didn't drink the cool-aid and I don't show or compete because of it. Do you think a judge today would even look at dog that has the qualities of those from the 60's and early 70's? I bet not. But at some point, probably not in my life time, I have to beleive that history will repeat itself and at some future point German shepherds will look and show and work like the dogs of yesteryear.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Doc, I feel the same Likewise. But, the breeding mentality has to change and I don't see it happening. I told people in 1977 that the American showline dog would become useless for work if they didn't breed to German dogs....32 years later it is complete....Well the same with the WSL dogs....in another 15 years they will be working on 40 some years of breeding to the same dogs and just like the American Lance progeny, this too will self destruct....time tells all!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Hey Clif ... if I mix the Kool-Aid can you get them to drink it?









Well, I'll keep searching for the not so acceptable dogs that have historic blood running through them in hopes that one day the tides will turn.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaireA very wise German woman once told me, "Do not be limited by the labels others will put on your dog. Instead leave them saying, 'Now, that's a GSD!"


That does just about say it all doesn't it?


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Of course you have read all the subsequent relies and decided not to respond again. 

I am no expert, having met only five police dogs, all working line dogs from Europe. But believe it or not, here in Mequon, WI. one police officer had to learn the German commands.

Another dog, Roscoe or Bosco, can't remember the name got some type of special commendation for dis-arming four people with guns in three weeks, and I can tell you the locations. Bar closing in Milwaukee. The guy I work with trained this dog, strictly a German Shepherd working line guy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

I talked to my friend yesterday. She currently has four police dogs working in geauga county and a cadaver dog and a SAR dog. These are ALL German Showline dogs. 

So the German working lines, if trained in German cannot make the switch to English? That's funny. Arwen understands Blieb, platz, setz, and Komenzeehere (no idea on the spelling of these), but she also understands stay, down, sit, and Come. Hmmmmm. Now if only I can get her to understand Ain Beer Bitta, I'd have it made.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

My GSD experience only goes back about 20 years, not in showing or trails but living with GSD's. I am a sucker for Red and Black dogs, but unless I can find the right SL I will be looking for a WL or a cross. 

I have purchased GSD's for the thought on possibly breeding, but I have not found what I would want in a female to start with.

I have had some dogs with GREAT nerve one GSD and one Mutt. Those two are my measuring stick for if this is a dog I would want to breed.

Here is my opinion. If you have a dog with GREAT nerves, you can't mess them up with under socalizing or poor training. Both of the dogs I talk about were not taken every place as pups or young dog, they weren't taken to training classes they were trained by me. I could take either of these dogs any where, they were unflapable, nothing rattled either dog. 

I can honestly see the difference in my GSD from the late 80's to the ones I have now. My two that I have that are the closest in nerve to my 80's is my male who is SL/WL cross and my oldest female who is SL/and gasp AM BYB. Both have a joint problems, the male has elbow problems and the female had mild HD hips. I can tolerate the mild hip or elbow problems over a dog that has weak nerves. I also have one of those, who is WL/American line cross I would never buy that mix again. 

My SL female is your typical Red/Black typie female. She has good nerve, but just not enough to suit me to carry forward with it.

IMHO, GSD's would be easier for people who don't have a lot of experience to own and handle IF the SL's had better nerve.

So in 5 or 6 years when I will start looking for another GSD I will have my work cut out. I may go with WL, but not sure in my cough late 50's that I will be able to keep up with a WL.

I know Cliff mentioned the Martins in a post. That was when the devide started. But the people who followed the Martins, seemed to have forgotten one part of the breeding program and that was an outcross, the pattern was 2 line breedings then outcross. The two line breedings were to set type and the outcross was supposed to be used to correct temperament and keep workability. If I spend some time tracing back all of the Martin's breedings I would probably find that they started forgetting the outcross in favor of making sure they had the type that was going to place.

Val


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

re the Martins - they falsified MANY of their breeding records....when DNA came in the SV was shredding and reissuing pedigrees by the hundreds or maybe even thousands! The kennels were suspended from breeding as a result of "poor record keeping" and Wienerau only came back into activity a few years ago, now run by a daughter...the damage done to the breed and the fanciers - who were slowly brainwashed by the Martins LOL - may be as irretrievable as Cliff says....I think that there are breeders who are trying to keep some ability in their lines, but their perspective of what ability actually is is far different than the WL breeders. What I see is dogs with some innate drives, but without the strength to be trained to be correct....if it isn't fun then they fold and quit - obedience is the bugaboo in training a SL more often than tracking or protection.

As far as them being police dogs ---- to quote a K9 handler I recently spent some time with - and who took some bites from my guys - "we just want them to bark, run and bite" While they were very impressed wtih the ability my schutzhund dogs had, they were aghast at the work put into the off leash work - the transports, the escape, some of the training with attentive heeling around a helper until released - thought that the control and obedience was much more work than they wanted to bother with!

And may police dogs are as much a visual deterrant and PR in communities as they are for really catching bad guys...

Lee


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Originally Posted By: Timber1The Mals are much more unpreditable, more hyper and more difficult to train. I do not believe police departments are leaning heavily toward using the Mals.


Sorry, I'm late for this party. Also I only read the first page and felt I needed to post.

The problem with Malinois is that there are a LOT of bad breeders out there. I just ran across an add yesterday for "Malinois puppies with Law Enforcement background". I saw a photo of the puppies and they definitely don't look like pure Malinois. Then there's they guy in Tennessee that bred two "LE" Malinois to try to sell and only sold 1 of the 8 puppies. The rest went to the Dutch Shepherd Rescue. 

Also, they are not harder to train, but easier. BUT, they are very literal and will remember exactly what you show it. If you do it wrong, well how's the dog supposed to know.







I found this out with my first Malinois. 

Yes, they are hyper, but not unpredictable. They will do exactly what they were trained to do. This is where the "thinking" comes in. A GSD might think first, but a Malinois will do what you say without question. 

My Malinois is from French Ring Lines. You can see in her pedigree many FRIII dogs. She is smart as a whip. She will think, also. If she's not sure what I'm asking, then she will experiement and try different behaviors. But once she knows what a command means, she's lightening fast in her execution. 

I think the reasons LE is going back to GSDs and Labs. GSD are more intimidating, and the Malinois are too smart for them. Possible, also is that the Malinois they bought at the height of popularity was poorly bred. Also, Labs are cheap.

Oh, and I attended a Ivan Balabanov seminar which had a Penn LE GSD in attendence. This dog (Czech I believe) had a bad habit of sneaky bites. After being called off the decoy, the dog would turn around and go in for a bite on his own. So, the "thinking" part is not necessarily a good thing. 
-------------------------------------------------------------
A news story about a town that is replacing their retiring Malinois with Labs...

http://www2.statesville.com/content/2009/apr/29/spd-adds-two-canines-crime-fighting-force/

A quote...

"Also, he said, labs do not tend to have the same physical problems
that sometimes plague the Malinois, such as hip and joint problems and a tendency to get cancer."

Um, Really? Labs are highly cancer and hip dysplasia prone. HD in Malinois is not a common problem. Possible, but not common. Keep in mind that many import unregistered Malinois are mixed with GSD.
----------------------------------------------------------
I see a lot of GSDs coming through my dog training club. Some good some bad. While I love the breed, I'll stick to my Belgians, thank you.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Historically the GSD was bred to be BOTH a show dog and a working dog. That can be interpreted in 2 ways: (1) the ideal GSD dog should be good in both; (2) or the breed as a whole s/d have both (not necessarily present in just an individual dog).

Today, (2) seems to be the prevailing interpretation. There were times in the history of the breed when (1) was the prevailing interpretation. I agree w/Doc and Mr. Anderson that in the golden age of the GSD with the dogs they mentioned interpretation (1) was dominant. 
The main problem with interpretation (2) is the splitting up and the moving apart of types to the extremes. It also leads to genetic bottlenecks from extreme linebreeding bec. the extremes can be more quickly and easily achieved through linebreeding, or to be perfectly honest, inbreeding.

The problem with interpretation (1) is it is just plain more difficult to do in breeding, and limits the popularity of the breed (meaning financial return). Since personally, I think the primary core problem of the breed is overpopularity, my preference is interpretation (1).


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

This has been a fun post to follow along with.








Like a few here I do remember the dogs before the split, just turned 50 so I was young.








In the late sixties my father was breeding Black/Golds that we showed here in Canada.
The ones that could not go into the show homes went to family or local K9 units.
He died back in 1970, it was a long haul till I had my own house with a large backyard for my own GSD.
Got back in 16 years ago with a AM/German show cross, my Mom used to say that he was a pony not a GSD.
Very strong and way over sized, have a 4 year old high-line male that I got lucky with also.
Have a 1 year old (on Sunday) working line in the house my teenage daughters dog, that's on the "sharp" side.
But on the other hand in the house she is very settled & so dam sweet it's not funny.
We are seeing more and more V rated kkl1 working-line dogs that can V in sport as well, this is the future of the breed.
The show people don't want to see it, all they see is Black/Red = $.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

So with the risk of really generalizing badly, which do you think is worse for the novice GSD owner:

1. Owning a soft showline dog with less than stellar nerves, but fine with early training and socialization.

or 

2. Owning a high energy, high drive, rock solid working line dog that doesn't appear to have an off button. 

I think novice owners are going to have trouble in both circumstances, but unless the nerves are really screwy on the showline dogs, then I think they will be able to manage that a lot easier than the energizer bunny dogs. 

If you have good breeding on the showlines, you will have sufficient nerves. If you have good breeding on the working lines, you will have an off button. I guess I am asking about dogs that are a little off for both lines going to newbie owners.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

For most novice owners, #1 is going to be easier to handle. Though of course neither dog is correct.

Regarding #2 though, the lack of an "off button" is a nerve issue, not a drive level issue. Hence, the lack of the off switch means the dog is in fact not "rock solid" after all and this dog would also fall into the "less than stellar nerves" category. And while it's possible the lack of off button is the only area where the dog exhibits nerve weakness, it's not likely so there's probably other nerve issues as well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Chris you are so right...I get tired of seeing on/off button tied to drives. They are not the same. There are showlines with high drives also. dogs that don't have off buttons have nerve issues. All nerve issues don't manifest in shy/weak. some nerve issues result in leakage of drive containment. Just like many aggressive dogs are not "hard", more often than not extreme aggression has to do with nerve issues. But all of these issues can really only be fully understood if you have worked your dog to see them manifest themselves. That's why you can look at many posts and tell people don't work their dogs because they don't know the fundamentals of a working dog....and these same people will be the "first" ones passing judgement on breeding practices or quality of dogs, and they don't know the working components of a working breed.....its crazy!!!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

Thanks Chris and Cliff for pointing that out!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

The misconception that hyperactive = high drive seems to be very common. Just like the one that snarling, barking, hackling, growling, lunging = kick butt "protective" dog. I encounter people all the time who think because their dog is always on the go, paces constantly, doesn't settle down it is high drive, when in fact the dog is hyperactive due to issues in the nerves. Many of these dogs wouldn't chase a tennis ball if their life depended on it.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*

We have a little high drive one here








She will be sleeping on her back, the second you go for the door she is in front of you.
You can't get the door open before she has launched herself out the door off a two level deck across
the yard grabbed a basketball and is shaking the crap out of it. All this just to go out for a pee!!
Call her back, she goes straight for her perch for a cookie, then goes and lays down again its so sweet.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: A newbie question regarding GSD's*



> Quote: I encounter people all the time who think because their dog is always on the go, paces constantly, doesn't settle down it is high drive, when in fact the dog is hyperactive due to issues in the nerves.


Couldn't this also be due to the dog/pup not getting nearly enough physical/mental activity? I ask b/c many pet homes fail to provide their dogs the activity even most _seniors_ need to thrive. I'm not disagreeing with the statement. It's excellent info & exactly what I hope to learn by reading here, but some owners, especially pet owners, are clueless as to how much activity athletic, particularly young, athletic dogs really need. Imagine taking an inquisitive, athletic 10 yr old child & forcing that child to live like an asthmatic, arthritic semi-invalid over weight retired accountant.


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