# What is the ideal GSD?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I know there are going to be a lot of different opinions in this thread but I am curious to hear what different breeders, owners, trainers, etc., would consider to be the ideal German Shepherd dog; from tempermant to drives to physical attributes, etc..

Is there a German Shepherd out there that you would consider ideal? Who comes the closest to your ideal GSD? Why? Or why not?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

To me it doesn't matter if he has a high balldrive or what kind of line he is from, what he looks like, etc. pp.

It is like with kids. The ideal German Sheperd to me is the one you own and have fun with. I would love to get Yukon "geköred", would love to do Schutzhund with him. Heck, he's got it in his bloodline but he doesn't feel comfortable out there. It's probably because the previous guy F"§$% him up so bad that he doesn't want to be anywhere near the Schutzhundtraining. Yet at home he's the perfect guarding dog. Nobdy would ever get into this apartment. He protects this place because it's HIS home. 

To me, he is ideal. even though he's missing half an ear and has the abuse background. I love this dog to death. He's silly, goofy, funny, playfull, not that much afraid of men anymore as he used to be but still a little shy but thats okay because that means he doesn't go with everybody. He's got one of the best working dogs bloodlines in the world, a great exterieur and to me, he is one of the best dogs in this world. No other dog could replace him.

Zenzy on the other hand is missing half her nose. As a puppy she had an infection which cost her half her nose. The vet said it would grow back but it never did. That's one of the reasons why nobody wanted to buy her. Who wants an imperfect German Sheperd? 
She's got it all, she isn't afraid of anything at all. She's naturally aggressive and to me she's perfect. People look at me weird because I am walking around with one dog missing half his ear and another dog missing half the nose. She looks a little like Miss Piggy but to me both of them are the ideal German Sheperd. 

Their kennel is one of the ten best kennels in Germany and I picked the two Sheperds that nobody else wanted. I don't care because to me, there is no such thing as an ideal or perfect German Sheperd. It's like with humans. We ain't perfect so why do we expect animals to be perfect?


----------



## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

It would be a combination of my two girls. 

Things I love about Grace (my <3 dog, for sure):
*Friendly and can be trusted around kids/new people/other dogs
*Protective when needed
*Great at relaxing and great at "get up and go-ing", just content to be with us
*Sweet personality and very loving
*Very obedient (but stubborn sometimes)

Things I love about Kira:
*Healthy (my number one requirement!!)
*Very drivey and eager to learn, super smart
*Happy, never worries, sassy personality
*Small size...I love that she only weighs 60ish pounds!
*Has very little undercoat and sheds way less than Grace.


----------



## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

aren't they all awesome!!
haven't met one I didn't like


----------



## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

The ideal GS is the one I have at the time, I socialize, train, and love them so to me they are the perfect ones.


----------



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

That's a difficult question. I think it's probably a myriad of things for everyone, but probably very similar things as well. Health is #1 of course. Not just the typical good hips and elbows and eyes and heart, but the other things that dogs seem plagued by these days, like ear infections, and skin conditions. 

The ideal temperament for me would be one that I know would protect me as I sleep at night, and easily accepts anyone I ask him to. A dog that I could trust to be around all types of people, children, small animals, other dogs, etc. I wouldn't want to worry if he will bark or nip at someone he meets. A dog that has my trust. A lot of that is training, but we are just talking ideals here









All GSDs are beautiful to me, though some are more appealing than others. I prefer a rich pigmented Black and Red, with a dark face. 

A dog that enjoys training, and wants to please. 

Yup, that pretty much sums it up for now


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm going to get all mushy...but to me, the ideal GSD is the one that allows you to be a part of their lives, kind spirit and unfaltering love while asking for nothing in return. 

Yes, Awwww.


----------



## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

For me a Rock Solid Temperament is #1. This will cover so many things but I would like to add that I prefer a dog that is not too dominate with other dogs and I strongly dislike a dog aggressive dog. 

Health a close second. Hips and Elbows and all the other stuff.

Good Working ability/attitude

MY ideal GSD - I want a a dog with a real desire to please / biddable and prefer a strong dog that is also somewhat handler sensitive.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It also depends of what you want to do with them. Do you want a show or a working dog? Than what kind of working dog do you want? What do you want to do with him? Sheperds are allrounders that is for sure. But you have to take a closer look of what his strength is and what isn't to find the ideal dog. 

One might not be the best Schutzhund but one heck of a Tracker.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: aubie the ideal GSD is the one that allows you to be a part of their lives, kind spirit and unfaltering love while asking for nothing in return.


 I bet our GSDs hope their ideal owner is just like that as well







Especially desirable is the last part about expecting nothing in return









Sorry, couldn't resist







I expect a lot from my dog but he rightfully has his own demands that I respect.

Strong nerves are #1 sign of good breeding for me. Health comes second.


----------



## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I have my ideal dog right here. H'Doc vom Rex Lupus aka "Doc". Super temperament, solid nerve makes him a fantastic hang out dog that I can take anywhere. When riding in the back seat of my truck, he doesn't even lift his head up when we go through the car wash. Super with puppies and any female dog, doesn' start crap with males. Working Drive up the wazoo which makes training him so much fun if not a little dangerous..please don't snap for the ball until it is away from my body! An unmatched desire to please and get it right, and once he learns something, that's it..no testing, no more questions, he only gets it wrong when I screw it up. BIG Grips are always completely full and calm, animated happy obedience, natural tracker. He is always impressive on the schutzhund field. Very good conformation. No health issues. Calm in the kennel, crate, and house. He also has very clean habits which I can always appreciate. 

Every time he comes up to me for a snuggle I feel completely blessed.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he's gorgeous,,I am soooo partial to those black boys!!


----------



## GSDBrisko (Sep 13, 2006)

My ideal GSD would be...

A great natural Tracker, Eager and biddable in Obedience, Strong in the prtoection phase then comes off the feild and is great with kids, other dogs, cats even little kittens and tiny yappy dogs. All around happy dog to be around that can go anywhere or do anythign I ask of him!

And I feel that I already have him... my Dino


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well I've only had to so this probably changes every day! This is just a conglomeration of what I love/want/have admired.....

My ideal GSD is not extreme conformation (but cannot be poor conformation either). He is male with a strong head and dark eyes. He is a head-turner and has rich color and deep pigment (either black and tan or dark red or black sable). He is not large but has good bone and his strong head make him seem large. He has a great shoulder and front angulation, something I think can be improved in all the lines.

[sorry I had to start with conformation b/c that's what I know best right now, not that it's the most important!!]

At home he is well mannered and gentle. He gets along with all my other dogs even if he doesn't need to be a dog park dog. He alerts to people on the property but is safe, does not mind guests coming and going, and always defers to me. He is allowed on the couch and the bed because he knows better than to guard them from me or other dogs.

In training he is full of drive and energy. His drive and energy are such that he challenges me to get off my butt and work! He is so easy to motivate; HE is the one pushing ME! He works for his tug, his ball, or his treats. He also loves to track and is naturally focused yet calm and methodical. I hate tracking but he is good and loves it so much I enjoy doing it just for watching him teach me. In protection he is intense, turns on under pressure and relishes the fight. He is not out of his mind in prey drive, but is calculating. When on sheep he can turn on a dime and moves flawlessly in both directions. He has courage but doesn't lose his head chasing sheep. He is "heady" and can predict the movement of the sheep.

We have a strong bond, but at the same time he is a thinking dog that can work based on his confidence and instinct.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my ideal gsd is one with brains and solid temperament) I've been so blessed to have/had a few with just that..


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My ideal dog is a lot like Brisko's, but I will say that if the dog is aloof and not warm and fuzzy to everybody, I don't have a problem with that because the standard says they should be aloof and somewhat reserved especially around unfamilar people.


----------



## GSDBrisko (Sep 13, 2006)

I perfer my dogs to be aloof... My dogs are fine with people, if some idiot comes up and grabs them/pets them, but they really have no "need" for people outside of their "pack"


----------



## Pride (May 6, 2014)

Great question . Come on all breeders, trainers, owners ..... how about an answer to this . Who is the closest shepherd out there you consider t0 be the ideal.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

In general we try not to resurrect old threads unless there is a terribly good reason, and this one is 5 years old. You are welcome to start a new thread, maybe introduce yourself as well.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am only a pet owner but my ideal GSD is:

A large, black, muscular male, about 85-90 pounds, at the top of the standard height wise. Medium energy, medium drive, smart, fearless, loyal, friendly to all but not overly friendly and seeking out attention. Confident, willing to please, quick to obey, goofy but knows when to be serious, healthy and lives a long life.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> In general we try not to resurrect old threads unless there is a terribly good reason, and this one is 5 years old. You are welcome to start a new thread, maybe introduce yourself as well.


I like to see some of these old threads brought up....so many names I miss from the past that aren't participating on the board anymore.
I'd rather see an old thread ressurrected instead of having 100 threads on the same subject.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I like to see some of these old threads brought up....so many names I miss from the past that aren't participating on the board anymore.
> I'd rather see an old thread ressurrected instead of having 100 threads on the same subject.


:thumbup:

Yes, yes, yes! I 100% agree with Jane!

I love old threads and I don't see why we can't continue to comment on them!


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I've never understood the bias against resurrecting old threads. Many discussions are timeless & deserve to be re-visited.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, but it should be brought to attention that it is an old thread so advice to the OP doesn't carry on, if it is that type of thread.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The old threads and today's threads are analogous to the the old breed and the new breed today.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

How true, Cliff...How very, very true.


----------



## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

a GSD the day his owner realizes the puppy biting has stopped


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think there is a difference in an ideal dog and an ideal GSD. Most now seem to make it more about a dog and expect that breeds, and the genetic traits that go along with that breed, matter less. There is an idea that training can adjust the things you don't like.
This has always been a problem with the general public. People who would get a dog because they liked the looks but didn't consider just what it was that breed was bred to do. Then they would struggle endlessly working against the traits the breeder worked so hard to maintain.

Now it seems, that mentality has worked it's way into the working sports. Many people no longer realize that SchH was about seeing if the GSD had the genetic traits it was intended to have. People are so much more clever, (or they think they are), in how they cheat the system. It first became apparent in the show line dogs, where suddenly SchH 3 dogs didn't seem to recognize what a dumbbell was. Now, it has moved to the working lines. There is mostly one kind of dog now, the high prey, low trigger dog that can be worked by the people who spend more time trying to understand the point system in IPO, than they do learning to understand their dog and his innate instincts. I continue to feel like this is such a huge loss. This new mentality that is all about training vs working with, and bringing out the genetic talents, of their GSD. 

For me, an ideal GSD is one who always has an ear to his handler. A dog who even though not raised with children, has a sense of what they are, and a somewhat maternal instinct becomes obvious in their presence. At the same time, they have an actual protective instinct. Where they will protect their handler in a way that, for the lack of a better way to put it, is also somewhat maternal in nature. No, not through "prey attraction" and not because they are "defensive" or any of the other terms that are now used way too often, without the understanding behind them. It is different in how it looks and how it is triggered. The good GSDs have a sense connected to this instinct that allows them to size up the situation before they act.

I want a dog who is easy to train. One that does not require endless repetitions to learn behaviors that should be easily accessible to the trainer. Where they pick up tracking like the naturals they should be and show a willingness to engage with their handler, seemingly asking, " what do you want to do now?" Not because the handler has food or a ball but because it is their handler and there is that bond. 

There should also be a degree of hardness where the dog can stand up to stress or actually get better when they experience conflict. Real courage, and an ability in protection work that does not have to be trained or controlled with electronics but dogs who see the bad guy and instinctively know what to do. Again, no endless work as a puppy chasing rags on flirt poles, but capable of biting "full and hard" the first time they ever see an agitator but still maintaining the ability to hear and comply with their handler's commands. Even while high in fight drive they have that very GSD quality of knowing when to escalate the fight, and the nerves to be capable of stopping when commanded. 

I guess everyone thinks they have this kind of dog but mostly now, I see one kind of dog as I said earlier. No, I can't see all the dog across the country and occasionally I see one that makes me think that might be an actual GSD. However, more and more, it is hard to find a different type of dog. The dogs are less of a medium threshold now and easier to stimulate. Those dogs have always been there but breeders understood how to use them to balance. Some would still like to find that balance but are having a great deal of trouble finding the right dog.

I know, people who have something to loose here will argue how great the dogs are now. That may be your perspective but mostly, anymore, I see people who lack the right kind of experience to make that judgment.


----------



## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I have several Ideal GSDs. Ideal dog one is Lycan, sloppy, goofy and lovable; hurling himself at you to the point of tripping you up; utterly impossible and adorable. 

Ideal dog two is Taker: The earnest, noble one who lives to please and probably would have made a great military dog. Smart,brave, loyal and loving. 

Ideal dog Three: Allie. The walking sponge. Allie firmly believes people exist solely to provide her with food, love and stuffed toys. The most important meal of the day is the next one and the universe revolves around her. 

Ideal dog four: Sweep. Gentle, shy and wanting nothing more than to be loved. 


I'm lucky I have all four kinds. 

Jelpy


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Vandal, legitimate discussion and hopefully it doesn’t make you defensive…

I loved your description of what a GSD should be. It’s an excellent description of the balance our breed needs and where it has gone with certain breeders.

But…I look at your website, your breeding program, and what I’m seeing is that you’re pretty much asking people to take your word that your dogs are like that. By your description, if you’re breeding that type of dog, I’d expect to see the Schutzhund titles piled up. You talk about ease of training, natural ability, and IMO, if the dogs had these traits the titles would be very easy to get to prove that your dogs are exactly as how you described they should be.

I guess the question is, how do you prove to someone that the dogs you breed have that connection with the handler? Have the natural ability to recognize a threat and dispatch with it properly?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh gosh, here we go , once again it has nothing to do with training or titles . 
See why I posted Anne's ms Vandal's post in full to "Nicholas" and to "Genetic obedience" threads.

Jelpy , I get it , the dogs are your personal treasures .


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> oh gosh, here we go , once again it has nothing to do with training or titles .
> See why I posted Anne's ms Vandal's post in full to "Nicholas" and to "Genetic obedience" threads.
> 
> Jelpy , I get it , the dogs are your personal treasures .


That's not where I'm trying to go...

I'm just wondering. Breeders will talk about the dog needs to be this or that, but where is the proof? Why, as a consumer, should I just trust that the dog is how the breeder talks about it? Or claims that the pair is a good match?

If the dog is capable of all the things vandal listed, shouldn't the title be easy to get and therefore meet the requirement that was set forth long ago for breeding a GSD?

Or are "experienced" breeders just allowed to test a puppy, see that it hits the nose to the ground and claim that its a natural tracker without proving the fact that it is. Or put the dog out on a training field with a helper at a young age, see the dog react, bite a puppy sleeve, and claim that it is a natural protector and it doesn't need to be proven any further? Or see that the dog heels at 8 weeks old, is willing to do "genetic obedience" and then claim that it doesn't need to be tested on a trial field because the breeder has seen that its capable.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have some dogs that aren't in the category of genetic obedience . I strive to make breeding decisions which enhance and do produce , genetic obedience.
It is a quality that is missing in the breed as a whole . It is a quality that I love. You don't have to condition or promote anything. It seems the moment you need it , the ability and desire is there.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am quite confident in my ability to evaluate what a GSD should be and I am not here trying to impress you or to sell my dogs. 

IPO is no longer SchH and while I "might" decide to title one or two of my dogs in the future, anyone who thinks a title is what makes a breeder capable, doesn't have a clue. As I already stated, IPO isn't what it used to be and is occupied by people with your mentality. Most now describe it as the "bare minimum"...another sad evolution but whatever. 

I board dogs here. One of my clients bought a pup from a man who has titled two dogs. One he competed with at the National level, the female is titled as well. The pup from that litter, is about the most frightened, nervous and neurotic dog I have ever seen. Only a poorly bred American line dog can compare to what that dog is. This is a working line dog, a fact that has left me more than a little disturbed. I see more and more examples of working line dogs headed in the direction of that dog. Recently, the breeder repeated the litter. Can't let those titles go to waste you know. Speaks to his experience level and what IPO has NOT taught him.

If you don't understand what I am saying, I can't help you. I am pretty clear in how I write and while I will credit SchH for teaching me what a good dog is really capable of, it has never been a case where a judge told me anything I didn't already know about my dogs. I always knew far more about my own dog than they did and breeding decisions have never been about the title. 

BTW, in the last decade or so, I have titled six dogs and trained many more, along with helping numerous people train and title their dogs. As always, it only matters what you do today for most people. Experience is something that no longer matters. 

I'll go back up and argue with the AR sympathizer and leave the expert breeding advise to the rest of you.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No, I get what you're saying. And just want to let you know that you have no idea what my mentality is. I'm asking the questions because I do want to learn.

The point of asking is mostly because of the advice I see given on this forum when it comes to new people purchasing a puppy. To put it bluntly, and I'm sure you've seen it happen as well, if someone asked about your program just based off of your website, this forum would scream "RED FLAG!" Mostly because you fail the "title test". Without knowing you personally, I'm not sure why a consumer would be confident in your ability to evaluate a GSD.

Unfortunately, more and more I'm understanding that the only way to get the solid dog you speak of is to be "in the know" or involved with the breed in some capacity. It's just disheartening to know that a newbie, or someone that has no interest or even ability to get that information, can't follow a set criteria to get a solid dog.

I know what you're saying about "what have you done lately" but unfortunately, its way too easy to lie to people about experience and make up that you have decades of it because its a lot of time, effort, and difficulty to actually check those credentials unless you're involved.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My problem with relying on the breeder and their experience, rather than seeing actual results is that I know a few too many American line breeders that will scream from the mountain tops about their experience, their time with the breed, their countless champions, ect. They have absolutely no problem convincing people that their dogs are the way the GSD is supposed to be and unfortunately the temperament flaws that vandal spoke of…aren’t usually noticed by the majority of the GSD owners in this country.

I know plenty of people that believe that my dog is “nervy” because he reacts to stimuli in his world, while other dogs that lay there without lifting their heads or batting their eyes at people that walk in, loud noises that are made, tennis balls that roll on the floor. I know people that believe their dogs are more stable than mine because they’re perfectly content not exploring or reacting to changes in the environment.

I was thinking about the GSDCA temperament test a few days ago. I remember there was a thread once where Carmen shared how the GSDCA tried to make those tests mandatory for dogs that are going to be shown in the breed ring and the breeders revolted because too many dogs weren’t passing the simplest of temperament tests. I thought back to my club, and how they made a very big deal about dogs passing this test. When I was first there, I was excited about pretty much everything my dog did, and so I was really excited as well when my dog passed the test. Now I look at it, and I realize that it’s really nothing to be excited about. Nothing that’s in that test should cause any problems to a normal GSD…they should pass it with flying colors and it shouldn’t be a huge party because a dog is able to ignore a can of shaking pennies, or walk over a grate and a tarp. A person shouldn’t worry that their dog can’t pass because nothing in there should cause a well-bred GSD a problem…but it does. And these dogs are bred by people with decades of experience.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Unfortunately, more and more I'm understanding that the only way to get the solid dog you speak of is to be "in the know" or involved with the breed in some capacity. It's just disheartening to know that a newbie, or someone that has no interest or even ability to get that information, can't follow a set criteria to get a solid dog.


I know, and we should be able to select our future spouses online as well. THAT is how ridiculous things have gotten.
You have never read a post from me, making excuses for not titling all of my dogs. I decide what I will breed to satisfy myself and I decide who gets one of my dogs. I don't make claims or base my decisions on whether someone who knows nothing, will be satisfied with me and you will never see me point out "red flags". 

It is the responsibility of the person to learn about DOGS instead of thinking a forum and a formula is how they select a living, breathing being. Most people know who I am. If they think I am FOS, there is nothing I can do about that. I sure won't be losing sleep over it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I love my silly/serious pup. I wouldn't trade him for the other perfect ones.
Everyone should have the perfect shepherd.


----------



## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

The ideal GSD is the one that is always glad to see you, train and exercise with you no matter who, why, where, he or she came from. Always a charmer. No matter a companion, work or both. The one you go to the store for. The one you read the labels on everything you buy for that charmer. Your concern is like that for a child. If you know deep in your heart that you have a good dog and you love that GSD there is no power on this planet that will not make your GSD the ideal.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

This stud's progeny is where Ill be looking for my second dog. Somehow they managed to title him even though he is supposedly all that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgaSqQgVBQ

I think when a breeder gets to the point where they no longer believe they need to title breeding stock (males at the minimum), kennel blindness is just around the corner...or perhaps its already there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXAdo3qyWU 


I like this one too..


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

same lines as Kris at von Forell , who learned a thing or two from Vandal and self on another forum many years ago . Those lines are here - in North America .


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

My baby girly GSD is ideal for me; imperfections and all!

<3


----------



## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

A happy GSD


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

ApselBear said:


> A happy GSD


Ohhh!!! I like!

<3

C:


----------



## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

carmspack said:


> oh gosh, here we go , once again it has nothing to do with training or titles.


Thank you! I really appreciate what Vandal brings to this forum, and this discussion really nails home a pet peeve of mine re: titling & breeding.  Anne's articulation on this is very informative.

I also tip my hat to her differentiation between an ideal companion and the ideal GSD.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My personal ideal GSD: 

Balanced drives. Ready to work, happy to work, willing to try, handles failure. But does not give up. 

I want a GSD, that I can take with me everywhere. A dog that can handle a crowd without being crazy. A dog that accepts friendly strangers if I am relaxed. 

I want a GSD that wants to be with me. On a trail, at the beach, working, they are confident to move away from me, but want to check in. 

I want a GSD that has an imposing presence. A dog that people notice. But one they are drawn to. I like a dog that brings people to me, be it kids or adults that share stories of GSD they grew up with. 

My ideal dog has good bone, great expression, good pigment. 

They should have strong work ethic, willingness to fight through bad things, and an open personality. 

My ideal dog loves me, is happy to be with me, wherever I am. And one that brings me joy. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> This stud's progeny is where Ill be looking for my second dog. Somehow they managed to title him even though he is supposedly all that.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QgaSqQgVBQ
> ...


The second video shows the kind of dog I was referring to in my earlier post. Frantic, screaming barking and the behavior after the out says a great deal about who this dog is. My bet is, this dog is not titled or he had a very hard time passing in protection.
The puppy is clearly stressed and that stress is written all over his face once he has that wedge in his mouth.
Seems there are many people yelling about titles, who actually don't have much of an idea what they are looking at as far as the dogs go.
If you were inclined to want to breed the kind of dog Floyd is, you would really need the right partner but as I said earlier, those kinds of dogs are getting very difficult to find. This is due to the training methods now and the kinds of dogs who fit those methods. Floyd probably does nice obedience but you do have to do all three in IPO.


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Wen I read breeders descriptions of a dog with working ability yet great in the house- my dog fits the bill/ but I know most of them are lying or covering up some negative aspects. I went to a trainer with a champion stud, supposedly recommended to breed. But you cant look at the dog or have another dog in its presence or its biting to get out its cage???

My version of ideal includes both the ability to work, and the smarts to be calm until the shtf.


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

If titles meant so much 100% of the GSD population in germany would have proof of their genetic ability for work and character, and people didn´t need to worry if the dog in question is a good representative of the breed. This is not the case so I´m afraid there is no way around this problem than educating yourself what you think is a good and close to ideal GSD. I think anne has a good point about screaming frantic GSDs often seen, is such dogs even if they have their SCH-title really telling us much about the correct genetics and ability for function in various situations and staying cool under pressure? Or is it a a narrow view that mostly is good for just that, screaming and biting a sleeve and function in a more limited area that really has not so much to do with the ideal GSD, if that is not what you think is ideal that is


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that, Anne and Bjorn is what is the wedge that is being created between "sport" and "working" .


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wasn’t screaming about a title…my point was that its extremely difficult to believe that a breeder without them, is breeding the type of dog that Anne described.

Yes, if you know her, and if you’ve had the privilege of following her breeding program for years, seeing how progeny turns out, and meeting plenty of her dogs, you can believe that without the title, she’s breeding the type of dog she described.

But…if you don’t know her, why would you believe her over any other breeder out there that claims to be doing the same thing, but in all actuality isn’t breeding those types of dogs.

And I 100% agree with you guys that there are plenty of Schutzhund titled dogs that aren’t well balanced, that are way over the top, and get titled. In the same way that there are dogs that don’t show the working traits/abilities necessary and still get Schutzhund titles because the sport has become watered down and depending on the trial setting and the judge the dog gets a title.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwi5lU5cnaQ

Floyd looks fine in protection despite having a problematic out..probably why he was on the pole in the first place. Looks like a nice young dog...plenty of young dogs scream in protection and get over that with age as you can see in the vid the screaming is gone.
I like his grip, drive and hardness to the helper and handler. Nice young dog.
FYI: Floyd is IPO 1 and has 90+ in all fazes.

Puppy looks real nice to me dont see any stress..I see plenty of stressed pups around here and they dont look like that. Grip like a vice, nice pulling, barking, looks like a pushy little guy with forward body language. Id be happy to own him.

Im not interested in fanciful stories about mythical lassies, seeing is believing. 
I like fast, hard, strong and pushy. Better to much then not enough.

Different strokes for different folks. 





Vandal said:


> The second video shows the kind of dog I was referring to in my earlier post. Frantic, screaming barking and the behavior after the out says a great deal about who this dog is. My bet is, this dog is not titled or he had a very hard time passing in protection.
> The puppy is clearly stressed and that stress is written all over his face once he has that wedge in his mouth.
> Seems there are many people yelling about titles, who actually don't have much of an idea what they are looking at as far as the dogs go.
> If you were inclined to want to breed the kind of dog Floyd is, you would really need the right partner but as I said earlier, those kinds of dogs are getting very difficult to find. This is due to the training methods now and the kinds of dogs who fit those methods. Floyd probably does nice obedience but you do have to do all three in IPO.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yes, seeing is in fact believing but apparently, you think you can explain away "Lassie's" behavior here as he gets a 0 in protection and we should all just take _your _word for it.
Looks like exactly what I predicted but you go ahead and spin it anyway you like. 0 is about 90 points away from 90+. 

There are behaviors in the blind that speak to the dog's state of mind in this video. He gets close and then jumps back away from the helper a number of times. You can also see the problems with the grip, (that they prevented with the back tie in the training video), once he is free on the escape. The grip moves to the hand area of the sleeve, (which is usually related to the dog not feeling confident in front of the helper), and he is very slow to out, requiring multiple commands. Yelps/screams as he is leaving on the pursuit in the escape and whines throughout the routine. Not to mention his training helper there did not to do a full on re-attack, pops the sleeve up and then turns away for the initial bite. 

Then we have the courage test where during the drive he is growling/grumbling and once again the grip moves to the hand on the sleeve while refusing to out until the third command.

It was clear in the training video the dog had this issue with the grip. Not only due to the use of the back tie but the way the helper somewhat feeds the sleeve to the dog. For people with your level of experience, I am sure it all looks impressive. Many think an out problem is a sign of strength. It is a sign of what I said earlier. He has not outgrown the issues that will continue to be a problem for his trainer, not in this video anyway. I see he passed eventually. I will be interested to see his IPO 2 and 3.

If you like that kind of dog, that's certainly your prerogative but don't try to tell people who know better, your form of "Lassie Tales". 

Good luck with your new puppy .


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

No substantive comments, but I wanted to say that I've really appreciated the posting of those clips and the discussion of what they show. It helps me understand what I'm seeing (some of which I had guessed but did not have enough knowledge to be certain of), and I'm grateful for that.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Vandal said:


> Yes, seeing is in fact believing but apparently, you think you can explain away "Lassie's" behavior here as he gets a 0 in protection and we should all just take _your _word for it.
> Looks like exactly what I predicted but you go ahead and spin it anyway you like. 0 is about 90 points away from 90+.
> 
> There are behaviors in the blind that speak to the dog's state of mind in this video. He gets close and then jumps back away from the helper a number of times. You can also see the problems with the grip, (that they prevented with the back tie in the training video), once he is free on the escape. The grip moves to the hand area of the sleeve, (which is usually related to the dog not feeling confident in front of the helper), and he is very slow to out, requiring multiple commands. Yelps/screams as he is leaving on the pursuit in the escape and whines throughout the routine. Not to mention his training helper there did not to do a full on re-attack, pops the sleeve up and then turns away for the initial bite.
> ...


 
Yes there are many dogs that fail in protection for not outing, I never said it was a strength nor do I see it as necessarily weakness. I think that depends on the dog. As I said he had an out problem.

He got 94 in protection last I checked, Ill bet good money that will continue on to the 3 level. Ill also bet that the hectic vocalization and movement reduces with maturity. 

He may not be the epitome of extreme power but Ill stand by my statement that he is a nice young dog. Nicer then many other young dogs you see on the field. 

Im not telling Lassie tales Im showing video of an actual dog as opposed to telling stories.

Perhaps Im out to lunch it wouldnt be the first time, but show me a young dog from your breeding thats better and eptomizes what your talking about and Ill eat crow.


----------



## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Merciel said:


> No substantive comments, but I wanted to say that I've really appreciated the posting of those clips and the discussion of what they show.


I'm with you, Merciel.  You articulated my thoughts very nicely. 

I am still learning... But it helps learning from the experienced breeders/trainers/handlers, as well as reading opinions from others and the discussions that follow.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Im not telling Lassie tales Im showing video of an actual dog as opposed to telling stories.
> 
> Perhaps Im out to lunch it wouldnt be the first time, but show me a young dog from your breeding thats better and eptomizes what your talking about and Ill eat crow.


Frankly, I really don't care what you eat for dinner and it's not my job to serve it to you. I simply discussed what an "Ideal GSD" is to me, (based on my experience but without mentioning a word about my own dogs), only to be interrogated by the breeding police and then subsequently insulted by you. You seem to think quite a bit of yourself and dish out the insults without a thought to who you are talking to.

Now you are asking for videos of my dogs so you can see the difference? And you think I believe that you will? HA!! 
Sorry, I don't have much faith that will be the case, not after this conversation. You only see what you want to see while rambling on about how others are "blind" lol.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

One with this kind of love on their face...


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I wasn’t screaming about a title…my point was that its extremely difficult to believe that a breeder without them, is breeding the type of dog that Anne described.
> 
> Yes, if you know her, and if you’ve had the privilege of following her breeding program for years, seeing how progeny turns out, and meeting plenty of her dogs, you can believe that without the title, she’s breeding the type of dog she described.
> 
> But…if you don’t know her, why would you believe her over any other breeder out there that claims to be doing the same thing, but in all actuality isn’t breeding those types of dogs.


If you don´t trust the breeder or/and need the breeder to evaluate what is good or not, what then will a SCH-title tell you anyway about a dogs natural ability to track under tough circumstances or work beyond the restrictions of the sport, especially since titled dogs comes in all shapes and types of character and even good points doesn´t mean the dog is of a type you like.

This is a type of dog I find impressive, nice both in his work and structure and general look, a bit to heavy/bulky maybe but a nice natural structure with normal angulations and a short straight back,






This dog is another I find more or less ideal as far as looks and structure goes, not too big or too small and have the structure I think a GSD should have,

http://extrasida.se/upload/699856140.AVI


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Vandal said:


> Frankly, I really don't care what you eat for dinner and it's not my job to serve it to you. I simply discussed what an "Ideal GSD" is to me, (based on my experience but without mentioning a word about my own dogs), only to be interrogated by the breeding police and then subsequently insulted by you. You seem to think quite a bit of yourself *I guess you know how it feels* and dish out the insults without a thought to who you are talking to.
> 
> *Actually I made some general statements about what I thought I never mentioned your name or kennel. I didnt realize that disagreement with your views equate to insults.
> As to who Im talking to..should I bow to your greatness because you have been breeding dogs for some time? The world and internet is full of those. They all tell stories, a few are true but most are FOS. Unless I can find consistent records of success in trial results or your dogs in others pedigrees all I know is you bred a lot of dogs...which in the grand scheme of things means.. *
> ...


You mean kennel blind, because if so thats what I said. I said many breeders are kennel blind and full of stories and BS. I never said you where, I never bought a dog from you or saw a dog from you. So I dont know if your one of them. 
Im a buyer not a seller, I have my eye out for product that has a proven track record and visual evidence that I can access. I learned the hard way as have many others on here and at the club that stories can fall apart quickly when you start training the dog and find out what you truly have.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Such a predictable response. Okay, yes, I am "chicken" HA! Suddenly I feel much younger, no one has said that to me since I was in grade school. 
I suppose your comments about Lassie were intended as a compliment. Again, you seem to have little ability to see what others are trying to show you. If that ever changes, I might be interested in your little challenge but so far, you are making little progress.

To both you and Martemchik.....You would be hard pressed to find me talking about my dogs on this forum or trying to sell them here. Not much of a name dropper either. I work them as the handler and as a helper and have for quite some time. What I know about dogs does not come from boards and online videos, my remarks come from years of working with them. 

I have helped anyone on this board who asked me for it in a civil fashion. That is mostly what I have enjoyed doing when I post here, which is not often anymore. I am sure that's all boring to you in your search for track records and proof. There are others here who are just as quick to make assumptions, accuse and disrespect the knowledge that a few here have offered. That's their loss. Carry on.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

björn said:


> If you don´t trust the breeder or/and need the breeder to evaluate what is good or not, what then will a SCH-title tell you anyway about a dogs natural ability to track under tough circumstances or work beyond the restrictions of the sport, especially since titled dogs comes in all shapes and types of character and even good points doesn´t mean the dog is of a type you like.


At minimum the Schutzhund title at least tells you the breeder took time to train and evaluate the dog. The dog was then evaluated by an impartial judge. Of course it would help to have watched the trial or the training sessions at which this dog was at, but most people don’t do that and would never plan on doing that in order to get a puppy that would never work or participate in sports.

I kind of equate it to the American auto industry through the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. They lived off their reputations, and people allowed it to happen. It was like…well you built good cars for the last 50 years, why wouldn’t we trust you? And then the quality decreased, little by little, even though they claimed to have all that experience and expertise.

I think sometimes people get comfortable with what they know. They think they’re amazing at doing whatever it is they do…other people give them that recognition, and they don’t realize that the quality is slipping, or they’re not getting out to see what else is out there and are just reviewing YouTube videos of possible studs to see what it is that THEY like.

Since 95% of most breedings go to pet homes, those people don’t have as high of expectations as working or sport people. They have a dog, that seems solid, that’s not fearful/aggressive/dysplastic, and they’re happy. They scream from the mountain tops that the dog is amazing and the greatest dog they’ve ever owned…except that they’ve only owned two dogs, so how much importance can you place on that review? The 5% that do end up trying Schutzhund or maybe working, some do fine, some fail, breeder doesn’t care much though…they’re making their reputation in the pet world anyways and all those people are loving their dogs.

And I’m not talking about any particular breeder, and I’m not assuming that this is what’s happening in all kennels…but I’m seeing it happen in plenty of kennels around me. Some in particular that get recommended on this forum all the time…and no one is the wiser because we don’t get those reviews, we just expect that the breeder is still successful because they were successful 20 or even 10 years ago.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Vandal" Anne" please continue to post ! No substitute for your many years of experience. I'm 53 trained most of my life" and I smart enough to know good advice" and can always learn More! Thanks Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

bill said:


> Vandal "Anne" please continue to post! No substitute for your many years of experience. I'm 53 trained most of my life" and I smart enough to know good advice" and can always learn More! Thanks Bill


I agree. Vandal's contributions, along with several other members, are invaluable to those who are here to learn. I am one of the latter.

There are many egos and opinions, but I think the discernible person and dog owners can filter out the white noise from wisdom & knowledge.

A lot of very logical, realistic points were brought into this discussion and some of the responses only highlights them further. 

Bjorn: You brought up a valid point, because I witnessed what you are talking about. I was tracking with a handler who was trying to title a SL male and female for breeding. The male did earn his title, and the female will probably do so eventually. Will I buy their pups? Watching them on the field - just tracking alone - never ever! My TD said the handler would probably trade his bitch for my SL female any day, that was how weak that female was. For my dog, she is a good middle & I love her dearly, but isn't cream of the crop for breeding. But as a buyer who thinks titles are important and not knowing what to *really* look beyond certificates and papers, it would fit the bill, for sure! I am learning a lot... on this forum and since joining a club in March. And the more I learn, the less I know...


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

If the goal is a dog that should be a pet then I don´t know if a GSD who are able to do good policework or a dog who is not only titled but can deliver a good performance is what you need or are looking for. Likewise, a dog that is titled but insecure around people and highly dogaggresive may not be ideal for breedings if an easy going petdog is what you want. Judges,breeders and people in general have different taste and goals so the SCH-title itself doesn´t make a dog breedworthy, evaluating the dogs you should do regardless. Sport and workingdog people want a dog that meets the goal they have, if they buy a dog from a breeder that has not so good dogs I guess they will be more picky next time and don´t only look for titles and what the breeder says.

It´s probably true people can get comfortable but with what they know, but I suppose the point here in this discussion is the ideal dog hasn´t changed so much, it´s more the goals and what people prefer that have changed some, and not always to the better.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Vandal said:


> Such a predictable response. Okay, yes, I am "chicken" HA! Suddenly I feel much younger, no one has said that to me since I was in grade school.
> I suppose your comments about Lassie were intended as a compliment. Again, you seem to have little ability to see what others are trying to show you. If that ever changes, I might be interested in your little challenge but so far, you are making little progress.
> 
> To both you and Martemchik.....You would be hard pressed to find me talking about my dogs on this forum or trying to sell them here. Not much of a name dropper either. I work them as the handler and as a helper and have for quite some time. What I know about dogs does not come from boards and online videos, my remarks come from years of working with them.
> ...


 
You havent *SHOWN* me anything...which was my point. 


Dont worry most of the people on here will never question your wisdom or dare to "disrespect" you. 


On the other hand I cant afford to just take people's "word" for what is a good dog. I learned this early on the hard way. Unless you are Koos, Huber or some other such luminary or someone with an easily accessible proven track record of success you will have to forgive me for not just blindly agreeing with you. 


I train in real life regularly and desire to be competitive not just show up to the club once a week and have my doggy bark at the helper.

I need a certain type of dog and value a certain type of dog. 

There are lots of stories out there told by people breeding the "ideal" man stopping GSD that have been doing it for 20-30 years. Just read the forums, classifieds or go to the local club. Most of them are full of nonsense.


For me stories just arent going to cut it. Thats my reality.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would like to know why this discussion is in the pregnancy/whelping/raising a litter forum.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am not sure why, but Anne posted her description of what she considers her ideal dog and then proceeded to get attacked. If you don't agree with her than post your ideal instead of turning this whole thread into a personal back and forth battle. People could learn a lot from her, Carmen, Björn, and the others who have spent decades in this breed if they would just open their minds and listen. If you don't want to listen, that is fine, but you will be respectful (and that is my Admin hat going on) in your responses.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jane, you are right. I moved it to a better forum.


----------



## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

The trouble is, so many of the "old hands" just give up and quit posting, so those of us just trying to learn end up losing all the benefits they brought.


----------



## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Such a broad question, I can only answer for me personally.

Me - a little larger than standard size, typical black/red/gold/tan, longish stock coat but not long enough to be labelled a 'coat', focused, high drives, stable, confident and graceful.

Not much to ask for


----------

