# Question on inbreeding



## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

My dog's mother is Alexis. In the attached pedigree, the dog Ruler Oney Vom Hallynn Haus, appears in two different sections of the pedigree. I think it is her great grandfather. Is this considered inbreeding? From what I know, he was an almost pure tan GSD. So I'm assuming that's why they introduced him twice? I have seen his offspring and they are almost pure tan GSDs with black muzzles, beautiful (I know nothing about pedigrees or breeding  )


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

That's linebreeding... not inbreeding.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

That far back, it's considered linebreeding, not inbreeding. Your dog is linebred 4-4 on Ruler Oney. The parents are position 1, grandparents are 2, great-grandparents are 3, etc. That dog appears twice in position 4, so the linebreeding is 4-4. 

That type of linebreeding is not at all uncommon in GSDs. The net genetic effect is about the same as if he were one generation closer, so a great-grandparent instead of a great-great grandparent. 

My puppy has a 3-3 linebreeding. It's not uncommon. Inbreeding would be brother-sister, mother-son, etc.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Linebreeding isn't a bad thing either as long as the breeder knows what they're doing. The breeding should always be done with a purpose. 

A good question to ask your breeder if you haven't already is why they chose to linebreed that specific dog. Was there a purpose to it?


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

You guys are awesome, thanks!

ps: How do I read AKC registration numbers and dates properly? The date in the AKC registration, is that the birthdate? Or is it the date they were registered. I purchased Ruler's pedigree from AKC's website. It lists his birthdate as 1/20/98. Yet the date after his DL number is 10-00?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Are you sure that is not 3-3. If the parents are 1, the grand parents are 2. This is the great grand-sire.

3-3 is considered acceptable in Germany. But, I hope they are using the dog for more than the color factor. It is good to find out all you can about dogs that appear more than once in 3-4 generations, sometimes even further back. More than physical traits are passed on through the genes.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> Are you sure that is not 3-3. If the parents are 1, the grand parents are 2. This is the great grand-sire.
> .


Alexis, the dog whose pedigree was posted, is 3-3. She is the OP's dog's mom, so the OP's dog is 4-4.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, thanks, you're right. I was looking at the pedigree as the pedigree for her dog, not the mother.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

mrudderman24 said:


> You guys are awesome, thanks!
> 
> ps: How do I read AKC registration numbers and dates properly? The date in the AKC registration, is that the birthdate? Or is it the date they were registered. I purchased Ruler's pedigree from AKC's website. It lists his birthdate as 1/20/98. Yet the date after his DL number is 10-00?


The date behind the name is most likely the date he was entered into the stud book.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Emoore said:


> Alexis, the dog whose pedigree was posted, is 3-3. She is the OP's dog's mom, so the OP's dog is 4-4.


Unless the OP's dog carries this dog in his sire also then the OP's dog would not be considered 4-4. The linebreeding reflects on the linebreedings between sire and dam and not any linebreeding found exclusively in either parent. Hope that makes sense.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> Unless the OP's dog carries this dog in his sire also then the OP's dog would not be considered 4-4. The linebreeding reflects on the linebreedings between sire and dam and not any linebreeding found exclusively in either parent. Hope that makes sense.


I was thinking about that since this is only the dam's pedigree. Wasn't sure what it was called, so I didn't say anything.

Since only the dam's pedigree is posted, what would this be considered with regards to the OP's dog and linebreeding?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lhczth said:


> Unless the OP's dog carries this dog in his sire also then the OP's dog would not be considered 4-4. The linebreeding reflects on the linebreedings between sire and dam and not any linebreeding found exclusively in either parent. Hope that makes sense.


I thought that it depended on how it was listed, Alexi would be 3-3 as the dog is listed on both sire and dam sides. But the pup would be 4,4 as it is both on the dam's side. If the dog is found in the fourth generation on the sire's side as well it would be 4-4,4. But I can be all wet like that. I have seen that 5-5,5; 3-4,4,5 and stuff like that when dogs are found multiple times in pedigrees and at one point I am sure I read somewhere that commas were used that way.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

4,4 on the op's dog. Makes sense.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok *IF* the OPs dog's sire was the dams brother it would be 4,4-4,4 but if there was no relationship in the sire there would be NO linebreeding, correct?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Linebreeding on a specific dog only reflects what is found in BOTH the sire and dam. The linebreeding of the sire and dam themselves has no bearing on their offspring. 

Example: Burgos' Unika - German Shepherd Dog My female Nike carries no linebreeding. Her sire, on the other hand is linebred on T litter Körbelbach 2-3, Caro vom Allerswald 4,5-5 (twice in sire's lines, once in dam's), and Ari vom Neffeltal 5-5. Her dam is linebred Mink 2-2, Ira vom Jägermeister 2-4, Greif zum Lahntal 4-4,5 (once in sire's lines, twice in dam's), and Enno vom Antrefftal 4-5. Because there are NO common ancestors in the first 5 generations of Nike's pedigree she carries no linebreeding despite all of the linebreeding of her parent's. 

A dog that is linebred say 4,4,5-5,5,5 on Greif Lahntal would mean that Greif is found in the 4th generation twice and the 5th once in the sire and three times in the 5th of the dam.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

thanks for clearing that up.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jocoyn said:


> Ok *IF* the OPs dog's sire was the dams brother it would be 4,4-4,4 but if there was no relationship in the sire there would be NO linebreeding, correct?


If the OP's dog's sire is say, Jake from Wonder Dogs, and the dam is Jane from Wonder Dogs, the linebreeding would be J litter Wonder Dogs 1-1. Is that what you are asking? This would be a breeding between littermates. 

The pedigreedatabase.com is a TERRIBLE place to learn about linebreeding because it does not reflect linebreeding on littermates and shows linebreedings on the sire and dam of dogs already mentioned. A good example of just how messed up their linebreeding program is just look at Nike's dam: SG Citty vom Haus Ming - German Shepherd Dog I posted her linebreeding earlier.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

lhczth said:


> If the OP's dog's sire is say, Jake from Wonder Dogs, and the dam is Jane from Wonder Dogs, the linebreeding would be J litter Wonder Dogs 1-1. Is that what you are asking? This would be a breeding between littermates.
> 
> The pedigreedatabase.com is a TERRIBLE place to learn about linebreeding because it does not reflect linebreeding on littermates and shows linebreedings on the sire and dam of dogs already mentioned. A good example of just how messed up their linebreeding program is just look at Nike's dam: SG Citty vom Haus Ming - German Shepherd Dog I posted her linebreeding earlier.


No my question was like on the last exampe you gave with Grief. If the dame is 4-4 and the sire is 4-4 then the offspring would be 4,4-4,4


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So even if the same dog shows up on the same side (sire or dams side only) of a dog's pedigree within the first 5 generations, it's still not considered linebreeding?

And if that's not considered linebreeding, because it's not on both sides, what is it considered?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jocoyn said:


> No my question was like on the last exampe you gave with Grief. If the dame is 4-4 and the sire is 4-4 then the offspring would be 4,4-4,4


Ahhhhh. No, the offspring would be 5,5-5,5. The dog moves back another generation.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If it is not found on both sides it is considered nothing as far as the linebreeding is concerned.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> If it is not found on both sides it is considered nothing as far as the linebreeding is concerned.


Gotcha... thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lucy Dog said:


> So even if the same dog shows up on the same side (sire or dams side only) of a dog's pedigree within the first 5 generations, it's still not considered linebreeding?
> 
> And if that's not considered linebreeding, because it's not on both sides, what is it considered?



I think it makes sense because you cannot DO anything about how much line breeding the breeding dogs have. But you CAN make decisions on whom you breed that dog to. 

So if the dam is heavy on Uran and the sire has not Uran, the pup is not line bred on Uran. The breeding that produced the pup did not add any more Uran. (Hard to do, I know.)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So back to the OP's original question. When is linebreeding considered inbreeding? How close does it have to be when it crosses that line to inbreeding? 1-1? 1-2?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> How close does it have to be when it crosses that line to inbreeding?


The closest breeding normally allowed by the SV is 3-2. So any tighter than that is generally considered inbreeding, although occasionally still done. I would guess that it is rarer in Germany than it is here.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's linebreeding... not inbreeding.


What HE ^^^said. It is not unusual to see the same ancestor more than once if you go back a few generations. Sundance is in Abby's background about 20 times.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Technically it is all inbreeding.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> Technically it is all inbreeding.


Yeah... it is. I just meant more of... when is it considered not acceptable breeding practices.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

1-1 would be impossible.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> 1-1 would be impossible.


lol... good point. That would be pretty difficult to make happen.


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