# Insights into this Pedigree?



## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

I may be interested in a litter sometime next year with this pedigree for the father. I still need to find the mom's, but some of you on here (carmspack especially) have some super human knowledge of bloodlines. Any input or info that can be shared I would appreciate it. 

Hancock vom Güldenen Winkel - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The pedigree is strong for sports, but I would be more concerned with who the mother is, before I would ever consider this dog for a breeding. He is linebred 3X on Fero in five generations. If you are breeding him to a typical sportline of today, you may pick up 2 or 3 more lines to Fero, (especially through the Timmy or Troll). At this point, he would not be an attractive stud for me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This must have been one of the few litters that Jenna had. I never saw Jenna (except in video), but know her sister Jilnannah and her brother Javir (whom I have bred to). The bottom part of this pedigree is very strong not just for sport, but also for work. Exceptional nerves, excellent tracking ability and hunt drive, strong social aggression, but also with very clear heads. Also, for the most part, very good to excellent structure. They can be sleepers when young. I, personally very much like these dogs.

I was going to breed to Justin Pendal Bach when he came to the states, but he ended up sterile. I know his lines rather well and have trained with dogs from these lines. Some of these dogs have quite an edge to them and many are far from sporty. 

I don't know Agent. For me the weakest part of the pedigree is Agent's dam. Noditha has produced very well for sport, but just not my type of dogs. 

Where is this dog? Is he titled?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Good morning Cliff . I am going to be on the opposite side of the fence on this one. This stud is very interesting. Mainly because of who is dam is and the reputation of the entire J litter of Talka Marda , including BS Javir , Jilnannah belonging to Ajay Singh and having produced some very solid accomplished offspring for Patiala kennels, (side note -- love that face on "Jill" SG Jilnannah vom Talka Marda - German Shepherd Dog takes after her dam , who I think is a pillar dog of modern GSD , Quaste). Those black round eyes show the Bernd type coming through. 

This is a valuable pedigree to carry Bernd Lierberg forward , represented on both sire and dam lines. 

Herding lines - Uwe Kirschental - going back to the real old family - all this following the J litters sire mother line through Evi . Well bred . Valuable conservation. Logical. 

Look at the littermates -- V conformation , excellent hips .
Marc Herkulesblick -- I like seeing him in a pedigree. He brings in more Bernd (E litter Busecker Schloss / Mike Bungalow to Bernd daughter Seffe) . Marc brings in more herding lines through Urs - Bert v h Knufken.

These are all genetics that I have relied on and seak out.

It is a bonus to find a stud dog with such a good maternal line . That bodes well .

Matched with the RIGHT female this could be very very interesting . But that is the trick. 

The sire of this Hancock -- also impressive. Yet another resource of some pillar dogs - providing Bernd Lierberg through Minks dam Cora Haardblick . 

Then you have Oldo zu Starken Eiche - who I like seeing in a pedigree , whose sire is the Pollux Busecker Schloss I put up on the Conformation Folder as an example of beautiful balanced conformation. His sire , meaning Pollux now is son of Valet who goes to Claudius Hain . Hain being a very important genetic herding resource.
Pollux's dam brings in Faust Busecker Schloss who brings in Onyx Forellenbach , an important key in DDR dogs .
Remember this goes back a bit -- but this is a good , solid foundation. !!
Whew that was just on Worek Kassler Kreuz .
Dina Pendel Bach -- more Bernd through solid guy Mink , and Uwe Kirschental - more herding genetics. 
So far we have looked at Hancock's sire , Agent Wolfsheim sire (top) line through Justin Pendel Bach.
Good. 

Agent's dam , Nordita brings in Maineiche , with lines to Bernd (Dolf) and Racker Itztal who brings in more herding through Pirol Kirschental. 
You have Harro , more Racker - herding and Bernd. Harro has E litter Busecker Schloss - mention previously.

Repeat on Falko Sindern through another E Busecker Schloss "Eiche" .

Ajax Pixner -- more herding through Uwe Kirschental - Sirk and Seffe Busecker Schloss , (Anderl) 

I happen to like this pedigree very much. 

Sire and dam have distinquished themselves in performance . 

Hancock looks like a good solid honest dog without exaggeration. There is a calm authority to his look . 

Some of the modern sport dogs have a "crazy face" like a fox or mad man -- or malinois -- . 

When I see a pedigree I see it as music , there is a rhythm. 

This is a totally different pedigree than Dooney -- 

Is there a picture of Hancock that is more recent. In the pedigree data base he looks to be 6 or 7 months . 
Very honest looking dog .

Now it all depends who they are going to breed this dog to . If they know and respect what previous breeders have built to this point - all well and good -- if they breed to something that is contrary , for example this imagined creation - lots of Yoschy, Crok, that type then the interest fades .
Having Fero does not detract . Fero was a good dog that was a power house producer . It was how he was used . 

I would take a female to this Hancock -- very suitable for my pedigrees .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com 



Quaste


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would agree Lisa. The only weak part in the pedigree is Nordita's dam mother line Emma's mother --going to Cindy. Emma does have Uwe and Trussa , so her sire line is good. Emma's dam Cindy von der Rappacher Höhe - German Shepherd Dog is not as strong as it could be, and yet it is not without some good. Looks like there was a plan and step by step compensation and management made for some real good genetics. 
This one little "flaw" if that , is like looking a field of green and pointing out - oh look there is a dandelion. Well even that dandelion has value .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, but that one dandelion can take over that field of green in a very short period of time if not well controlled.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Exactly and in this case it is , not let to seed , never mind seed , you keep mowing the lawn to cut off that flower.
This male has a nice pedigree.

That is why I said if the person understood the pedigree the next generation could be very good .

If they go into the Croks, Pikes , Yoshchy's or even german show lines then you have let that dandelion flower and let the field become a chore to bring back to green.

Dooney's mum do you have any idea at all which females are up for consideration ?

How do you know this dog . Do you know him personally , at your club .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

But Carmen...smile....I never said I did not like the male, I am just particular about who the male is bred to for me to be interested in the progeny. I have seen many progeny of Javir, (there are quite a few in the southeast) and also seen progeny of Jimbeam and Jilhanna. It was a very successful breeding and has very good genetics, but some of their progeny is not so great and I blame that on the mix of the mate. That's my point, somewhat in line with Lisa, with the wrong mate it doesn't take much for the result to go backwards or strengthen negatives. I see so many "sport" dogs these days, that are great on the field but are lacking environmental soundness. Yes, Fero was a great producer, and Troll may be a greater still producer, but when I see a dog 5X in six generations.....well I get a little skeptical.....unless you are trying to turn the line into some kind of specialty for drive, gait or color. The male listed is fine.....but I would be particular about who I bred him to.....with full knowledge of the dogs contained in his pedigree. JMO


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey , reason to smile, for me is this dog who has a pedigree where all 4 groups of the GSD ancestry are present in balance . This is one of the better pedigrees I have looked at in the recent past . I don't often find a pedigree where there is that much conservation of heritage herding lines . That one female line was not as strong as the rest of the pedigree, but that is in the past and somebody worked through it . That is what breeding is about understanding what you are working with, and mastering it - even fighting caprice of nature sometimes , to bring about something that resembles the plan you set out to attain. I feel in this pedigree that was more than done . End result is afterall Agent Wolfsheim . So how did that turn out? 
This is a young pup still in the pose on the pedigree data base , but you can see the obviously masculine head already. That was what you would expect from Bernd , and Faust and Onyx . 
I just had to go find more about Hancock , so sharing with you -- big smile look at this -- very confident , sure of self dog, committs , not over the top at all, no leaking or redirect , calm, not prey monkey , no frantic or hysterics , seems very clear -- 



 Ed Reyes K9 Training

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Hancock looks like a GSD that all should strive to breed for(hopefully)
I have one out of three that is similar....you don't know it until you've experienced it. Though everyone wants that flashy, lower threshold prey dog for sport. Not me.
Here is one at a bit older, showing his progress:


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Wow thank you guys. My Schutzhund trainer owns him and is planning a litter or 2 sometime next year. I will ask to get some info on the females he will breed him to so I can get that as well and have an over all picture of what the pups could be like. I only know the one mom by call name and I don't believe she is titled as of yet, but is turning 2 next week and I watch her in class and I like everything I see about her. She is super friendly when not in training mode, once she is doing her OB she is totally focused, break out the decoy and that sweet loving dog I just saw 2 seconds ago is fully ON and ready to go. 

If I get a pup, I plan on getting a male, since I already have a female- who is doing pretty well in this training environment- not to take anything away from the other trainers I have used, but he has trained and worked with her parents and he is training 2 of her littermate brothers as well, so he knows what makes her tick- 

Will post the one dams pedigree as soon as I can get it (hopefully this weekend at class)

Thanks again for everyone's input and knowledge!!!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I have personally seen Hancock in action. He's an amazing dog. Very serious. I absolutely loved watching him run blinds. Very solid bite... fast, accurate, and hard! Love this dog! Definitely a sire I'd like a pup from. (working on Will to make that happen! lol! He's not thrilled with the idea.)

I believe he has two breedings planned next year. The litter Dooney's Mom is mentioning is from a fantastic young female. Our training wants to see a few more advancements from her and titles before breeding (she's still young, 2 in a week.. so that will happen before next years hopeful breeding date I am sure.). She's the perfect example of a sable female working line GSD! I absolutely love her! Very loving when not working, and VERY focused while working. Exactly what I want!

Both of these dogs will make awesome pups... I can't wait! Hopefully many will stick around class so I can watch them grow.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

aha!!! I didn't find the actual pedigree- BUT I have found an older video of her- Jayzee- says she is a Baron vom Wolfsheim daughter- I will look for the pedigree tomorrow for you- this girl has got to go to bed. Night you all!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you need to know the pedigree . This female may work well , and be incompatible. So far just judging on minutes of youtubey clips - I like the male, Hancock better. The female is intense , more prey than the male Hancock . 
I can't find a Baron Wolfsheim -- do you mean Bandit -- because if the female is a Bandit daughter , then , for me it would be a no thanks . Here you would be linebreeding on the very line that has the weak link . Norditha .
Here is Agent sire of Hancock 



 
I think , based only on what I see here , that Jenna Talka Marda , Hancock's dam , gives him that calm focus . Even physically he resembles Jenna more than Agent .




 
here is Noditha working Noditha vom Teufelsgrund Video - Schoo - MyVideo

now go back and watch the video of Noditha's son Agent , same itching to go , exciteable .
Even when I view Hekor Talka Marda , a Quaste son , (Jenna a Quaste daughter) I see the dog more "with" the handler 



 . so you start to see where things come from , who contributes what to the animal in front of you.
Do not misunderstand my comments about Noditha . Just look at the youtubey and you can see that she has intensity and confidence . I know people that have her offspring and grandkids and they are thrilled with them.
As far as a pedigree , and that is what you asked to have examined , it is Noditha that has the little bit of a weak link . She and that top half of the Hancock pedigree are a little more sport type.

You need to guard against a dog that is over the top .

Looking forward to the pedigrees of the potential mates.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hancock appears to be a really nice dog and has the genetics behind him, but as I said, for me it still depends on who he is bred to for me to feel that way about the progeny. I am sure you can breed him to another Wolfsheim dog and get some nice dogs for schutzhund. 
Either way, Good Luck on prospective pup.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

ok, I can't find JayZee's pedigree BUT I did confirm her sire and dam- here is a mating check 

Line-breeding for the progeny of V Bomber vom Wolfsheim and Isca von Haus Welbergen - German Shepherd Dog


Bandit is apparently brother to Bomber- her dad.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

dang it- I missed the "edit" window

Apparently Hancock has "performance" issues, and artificial insemination would be used. I read back over what you have said Carmen- and I am assuming that because the dad is the brother of Bandit, this breeding would be a no thanks for you. I am still new to all of the terminology, so is it because you think it would be too "drivey" too over the top, too much dog? 



I just want to make a more informed decision than I did when I purchased Dooney, who is a handful to say the least, still love my girl to death though and she is doing well in Schutzund for starting late. The trainer (who owns Hancock) has trained both of her parents so I like that he is familiar with her "issues" and her major stubborness- she is apparently just like her father was, and her 2 littermates in class are as well- all 2 are exactly alike! Just in different stages of training.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this for me- I really do appreciate it!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

with this female for me it is a NO.
This female from Bomber (or Baron ?) and Isca already shows that edginess -- excitability -- , same as her mother Noditha . You wanted something closer to Hancock vom guldenen Winkel , whose sire is a Noditha son .
You would be doubling up on Noditha in this proposed mating. PLUS you would be adding more excitabilty through Mona Dollenwiese and more Fero .

Too much -- typical sport , would be flashy and quick and reactive -- I would worry that the nerve base would be undermined . Not to my taste .

so studs and dams are made by breeding choices.

Hancock has the pedigree to produce good solid dogs -- find the right female.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you said "and I am assuming that because the dad is the brother of Bandit, this breeding would be a no thanks "

could you show me ? in case I am misunderstanding you.

Bandit and Agent (sire to Hancock) have the same mother Noditha.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Thanks Carmen! I appreciate your input!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> The pedigree is strong for sports, but I would be more concerned with who the mother is, before I would ever consider this dog for a breeding. He is linebred 3X on Fero in five generations. If you are breeding him to a typical sportline of today, you may pick up 2 or 3 more lines to Fero, (especially through the Timmy or Troll). At this point, he would not be an attractive stud for me.


THIS , what Cliff said , is exactly what is happening .

Hancock on his own has a good versatile pedigree with some strong dogs for work. 
By breeding him to this female Jayzee , or what ever her name is, it becomes a typical modern sport type pedigree --- yes, adding more Fero (through Yoschy - even).

It is as if the Hancock's owner does not even appreciate his male's pedigree . 

Carmen


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:wub::wub:


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

so you like the match Cliffson, or you like Carmen's response?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Not a breeding I would be interested in either and would wonder about the reason for chosing this female and doing the linebreeding on Noditha. Also why does a young male have performance issues in breeding?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I like the male.....but the female is going in the wrong direction for my taste. Still, if the target of the puppies is sport homes....you are probably alright. But on balance.....not for me.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I like the male.....but the female is going in the wrong direction for my taste. Still, if the target of the puppies is sport homes....you are probably alright. But on balance.....not for me.


Ok thank you for the clarification!


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Not a breeding I would be interested in either and would wonder about the reason for chosing this female and doing the linebreeding on Noditha. Also why does a young male have performance issues in breeding?


Not sure exactly, he "tries" but nothing happens.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'd also like to know why the dog can't breed by himself, preserving reproductive problems is the best way to ruin a breed (ask Holstein cows breeders how they struggle with technology now to get calves). Unless it is something like a fractured penis or a very unique bloodline that needs to be preserved t all costs I prefer to trust in the wisdom of mother nature. And if I were a breeder expecting to get a pup to maybe use him/her in the future, I'd definitely NOT get a pup without at least knowing the reasons.

To have the technology and money to do something not always mean it is the right thing to do... my humble opinion.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Catu said:


> I'd also like to know why the dog can't breed by himself, preserving reproductive problems is the best way to ruin a breed (ask Holstein cows breeders how they struggle with technology now to get calves). Unless it is something like a fractured penis or a very unique bloodline that needs to be preserved t all costs I prefer to trust in the wisdom of mother nature. And if I were a breeder expecting to get a pup to maybe use him/her in the future, I'd definitely NOT get a pup without at least knowing the reasons.
> 
> To have the technology and money to do something not always mean it is the right thing to do... my humble opinion.


wow, i would have never thought of that being an issue. I guess coming from the horse world where insemination is a daily occurence, that didn't even phase me. 

I am seriously reconsidering a pup from this breeding and this is the only female he is breeding to this year- dang it man


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Dooney's Mom said:


> wow, i would have never thought of that being an issue. I guess coming from the horse world where insemination is a daily occurence, that didn't even phase me.
> 
> I am seriously reconsidering a pup from this breeding and this is the only female he is breeding to this year- dang it man


I think he has an Ulix litter planned.... not sure, you'd have to ask. It'll be mid next year I think and I am not sure which bitch he's looking to pair up with him. If it's another Ulix/Legend litter.... I will die! No way could I resist! I want a clone of Ryker... lol


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Dooney's Mom said:


> Not sure exactly, he "tries" but nothing happens.


Sometimes this is an issue in a young dog when a female isn't really ready to be bred--physiologically his response will be better when the female is ready for breeding.

Have they gotten a semen sample from him before? Don't know how you'd do an AI without him being able to "do something"...


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Sometimes this is an issue in a young dog when a female isn't really ready to be bred--physiologically his response will be better when the female is ready for breeding.
> 
> Have they gotten a semen sample from him before? Don't know how you'd do an AI without him being able to "do something"...


I believe he was bred before, he had to be um.... manipulated- he "did something" but just not with the female


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

lhczth said:


> This must have been one of the few litters that Jenna had. I never saw Jenna (except in video), but know her sister Jilnannah and her brother Javir (whom I have bred to). The bottom part of this pedigree is very strong not just for sport, but also for work. Exceptional nerves, excellent tracking ability and hunt drive, strong social aggression, but also with very clear heads. Also, for the most part, very good to excellent structure. They can be sleepers when young. I, personally very much like these dogs.
> 
> I was going to breed to Justin Pendal Bach when he came to the states, but he ended up sterile. I know his lines rather well and have trained with dogs from these lines. Some of these dogs have quite an edge to them and many are far from sporty.
> 
> ...


 
Trying to learn pedigrees and such and I couldn't help but wonder something. If Justin Pendal Bach is sterile, how could this pedigree even be real then?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Dogs can go sterile as they get older - so will produce normally up until that point.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, this is when Justin was an older dog.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Ohhhh ok. Lol. I understand now. I didn't know that they could do that. Forgive my newby-ness.


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