# Opinion on parents?



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Hello! I'm currently on a deposit list for a breeder and I will be getting my male puppy in mid March, I'm so excited!  Anyways, I have attached links of the puppies parents, showing their pedigree and x-Rays. The mom is Berlin, and the father is Hudson. Both parents are german imports with german show line pedigrees, what are your opinions on the pedigree, X-rays, and the looks? The parents are both longhaired so the puppies well be the same as the parents which is what I was aiming for. Also, what kind of puppies do you think they will produce (color wise) thanks for reading!! 

LONGCOAT GERMAN SHEPHERD FEMALE, BERLIN


LONGCOAT GERMAN SHEPHERD MALE, HUDSON


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## Ltleo (Nov 18, 2012)

Very nice. Have you aske the breeder if this pairing was bred before?
Also, I noticed that the breeder posted 50% off for dogs who carry DM? have you inquired as to this policy? Does this refer to a reimbursement if your soon to be pup develops or is a carrior of DM? Remember carriers don't nessasry mean will get DM. 

For the color spectrums, the breeder should be able to come close to what colors could be produced from the line. What were the breeders intentions of the breeding? 

Nice looking show line though


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I personally like this breeder. They do not title all their dogs but health screen for everything. Both Hudson and Berlin are clear on DM, but I would be concerned that both parents scored a fair on OFA. I would prefer at least one parent to have a good or an excellent.
Puppies should be gorgeous but make sure to check hips on pup when old enough for a prelim, or hold off for Hudson and Midori litter. Midori has a good OFA rating.
Good Luck!


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

No I wasn't informed about the 50% off policy, how do you guys feel that she REQUIRES the owners to give the puppies Nuvet Plus? Would you advise using a better brand of vitamins for growing puppies? Thanks!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Bella67 said:


> No I wasn't informed about the 50% off policy, how do you guys feel that she REQUIRES the owners to give the puppies Nuvet Plus? Would you advise using a better brand of vitamins for growing puppies? Thanks!


I think the idea of giving vitamins/supplements to dogs and puppies is mostly hokum. Feed a quality kibble and you'll be fine. Nuvet is basically a multi-level marketing business that allows the breeder to make extra income. It's not that they don't believe in the product; I'm sure they do, but it makes me wonder what's wrong with these dogs that they need expensive vitamins to make it to healthy adulthood when 98% of dogs make it to healthy adulthood without vitamins.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

What happens if you don't feed Nuvet Plus? Does it void your health warranty?

I would be interested to see what OFA ratings littermates of the parents received.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go back to the website and read the DM portion .

It does not say 50% off of dogs that carry DM --- they do say 50% OF GSD carry DM , make sure to ask your breeder .


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Kaimeju said:


> What happens if you don't feed Nuvet Plus? Does it void your health warranty?
> 
> I would be interested to see what OFA ratings littermates of the parents received.


Yes the contract states that if not given the vitamins the health guarantee would be void. I went on the Petigree Database to see if any of the parents offspring were regristered, and they were as the breeder requires her puppies to be registered by the Schlossfelsen kennel name, but none of the offspring showed any OFA ratings on there, I think some of the testimonials did though.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

carmspack said:


> go back to the website and read the DM portion .
> 
> It does not say 50% off of dogs that carry DM --- they do say 50% OF GSD carry DM , make sure to ask your breeder .


Oh yes I did read that, the breeder didn't mention anything to be about that. I clicked on the link and all it showed was a YouTube video, no actual information about it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bella67 said:


> Yes the contract states that if not given the vitamins the health guarantee would be void..


that kind of micromanagement right there would have me running away. There is no scientific evidence that feeding supplements makes for a healthier dog. If you are feeding a kibble then it's already balanced for nutrients. And if hte dog is healthy to begin with then it shouldn't need any joint supplements or added vitamins/minerals.

Is she a dealer of this product?


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Bella67 said:


> Yes the contract states that if not given the vitamins the health guarantee would be void. I went on the Petigree Database to see if any of the parents offspring were regristered, and they were as the breeder requires her puppies to be registered by the Schlossfelsen kennel name, but none of the offspring showed any OFA ratings on there, I think some of the testimonials did though.


This would be a dealbreaker for me, personally. I would not feel comfortable with a health guarantee stating that I had to feed a product the breeder was pushing. I could see requiring large breed puppy food to prevent HD, but the vitamins thing sounds a bit sketchy. 

If a dog has been OFA'd you should be able to look them up on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals by their registered name. It will also show you relatives in the database. Pedigree database is pretty spotty for accurate hip ratings sometimes.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> that kind of micromanagement right there would have me running away. There is no scientific evidence that feeding supplements makes for a healthier dog. If you are feeding a kibble then it's already balanced for nutrients. And if hte dog is healthy to begin with then it shouldn't need any joint supplements or added vitamins/minerals.
> 
> Is she a dealer of this product?


On her website she has a code that we can use to purchase the product. I haven't gave my 7 month old any vitamins since I've had her, I just give her Diamond supplemented with Grizzly Oil. I haven't had any health issues at all with her, and her coat is very shiny and soft.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Bella67 said:


> On her website she has a code that we can use to purchase the product. I .


That's because when you use the code and purchase the product, the breeder makes money from selling the vitamins.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I just hope I haven't made a mistake on putting a deposit down as it is non refundable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are a lot of things I don't like about her contract. Are you buying on limited or full registration?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> There are a lot of things I don't like about her contract. Are you buying on limited or full registration?


What are the things you don't like? I'm just curious. I'm buying limited, I have no intentions on breeding, the puppy would just be a family companion.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Bella67 said:


> I just hope I haven't made a mistake on putting a deposit down as it is non refundable.


My opinion is that you're buying a dog, not a contract. From what I understand, the notion of buying a puppy with a contract or warranty is pretty exclusive to the United States. In other countries when you buy a dog you get the dog, not a dog with a 3 year 36,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. There were aspects of my breeder's contract that I wasn't particularly thrilled with either, but I wanted the dog. I loved the parents and the puppy was everything I wanted, so I bought the dog and ignored the warranty deed. If you want the dog, buy the dog. If you don't want to feed NuVet, don't feed it.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Emoore said:


> My opinion is that you're buying a dog, not a contract. From what I understand, the notion of buying a puppy with a contract or warranty is pretty exclusive to the United States. In other countries when you buy a dog you get the dog, not a dog with a 3 year 36,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. There were aspects of my breeder's contract that I wasn't particularly thrilled with either, but I wanted the dog. I loved the parents and the puppy was everything I wanted, so I bought the dog and ignored the warranty deed. If you want the dog, buy the dog. If you don't want to feed NuVet, don't feed it.


You're completely right, thanks for your input!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think the food they are recommending is a top notch food which makes me question their knowledge.

I don't like the limited/full price difference.

I don't like they only guarantee for 2 years, which will cover HD, but not other genetic disease like DM. Now they've tested for that but that test is not 100% accurate.

The vitamins kill me. 

The recommend Ester C for puppies, which contains additional calcium. Probably not enough to raise the ratio of daily intake but still a no-no.

she lets people pick their own puppies based on order of payment. I think she should be placing them according to drives/temperament and the needs of the person.

The parents are tested out the wazoo. I'm sure you will get a healthy puppy. I would try to dig into the progeny of the parents a little more to see what they've produced. and try to meet the parents


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with Emoore. I did not buy my dog with a contract at all and I'm fine with that. I'm just always suspicious when a breeder tries to micromanage the feeding and supplementation of a puppy.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think the food they are recommending is a top notch food which makes me question their knowledge.
> 
> I don't like the limited/full price difference.
> 
> ...


I agree. I can't meet the parents due to the fact that I don't live in Nebraska like she does.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a thought. You should probably ask why Berlin is not listed in the OFA database but there are ratings listed on the website
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

She is breeding two dogs with "fair" ratings and a history of "fair" ratings in the lines. Fair is still passing but it's still the lowest passing rating.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Just a thought. You should probably ask why Berlin is not listed in the OFA database but there are ratings listed on the website
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> She is breeding two dogs with "fair" ratings and a history of "fair" ratings in the lines. Fair is still passing but it's still the lowest passing rating.


I looked up Berlin on the website and I found this;


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, that's right. But there should be a listing for the hips and elbows as well and there is not.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe its just me, but applications with a bunch of supposedly critical questions, or a 'Purchase Process' just come accross as a little too Philadelphia lawyer'ly for me. Good luck, I hope you get what you want and your happy, that's all that will really matter.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Thanks for your help guys! Either way I'll be happy with the puppy, can't wait for him to come home in March even though it's long ways away!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

my concern 4 studs, 9 females breeding, too many for me and none are being worked or doing anything, all dogs are stable at home playing, I prefer something off property showing the dog is stable and self confident..Also long coats are a fault and I don't like anyone purposely breeding for a fault, how about if a breeder bred for floppy ears???


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Long stock coats are not a fault and have their own classes in conformation under the SV system.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Some breeders dont want vaccines... Others don't want kibble fed dogs.. i.e. RAW diet...

At the end of the day you are keeping the dog... 

The breeder is putting an incentivised reason for you to give your dogs certain vitamins... The breeder believes in the product and is obviously also making more money of it I believe (she probably has a discounted price on promoting the product and you probably wont find anywhere else to get it cheeper)...

At the end of the day speak with your vet... who you trust... And decide with him what you would like to do regarding vitamins.

Its kind of like buying an apple product with 1 year guarantee and paying for the apple care to get it extended to 3 years... People are risk averse so they usually end up paying....

At the end of the day I dont think the vitamins will do bad for the dog... 
At the same time I dont think they are exclusively necessary...
The breeder believes there is less chance her puppies will develop problems i guess on those vitamins + added sales incentive.

Say your dog does have a serious pathology... Its not like an apple product that you take back...
If you do have a major ailment, it will probably end up costing you a lot more than that 50%... I mean it will help to be re-inbursed a sum to help care for the dog.. Essentially you are paying anyways for that reimbursement through the vitamins, but your dog also gets some vitamins that may or may not help.. 

All said and done... I think although not ideal... The breeder believes in that product.. She is forming some sort of extended warranty plan... i.e. discounting part of the cost of dog should your dog not be ok...

I wouldn't really call this whole thing a dealbreaker...
The dogs seem to have pretty decent titled lines... 
The parents are very beautiful (Especially the male)

I LOVE LONG HAIRS  so beautiful.. 

Just be aware that these dogs are matched specifically to try get long-haired puppies... So the grandparents/greatgrandparents may have good lineage as pertaining to titled dogs... The actual parents of the dogs are not matched as per title/temperment. They are matched predominantly for long-hair/bigger dog.More for looks... 

Nevertheless If you want a long hair specifically very beautiful dogs.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I do not know the breeder personally, but do know of her, as she is relatively close to me, being that I'm in Nebraska (mid-south western) and she is western. Probably the biggest things that I do not like, which is just my personal preference, it that she has been breeding specifically for long coats for quite some time. Even back before the long coats were allowed again in breedings by the SV. At one time, many years ago, I believe she used to do some schutzhund training with her dogs. She does lots of health testing. She breeds and sells lots of puppies. There are long coats that come up in breedings all the time with two normal coated parents, but I just have a problem with specifically breeding for a long coat. 

As for requiring that you purchase and feed a particular product, that does two things. Either you buy the products and they are making money off of it, or you don't and it voids the warranty/guarantee on your dog. Not what I would ever consider acceptable. I also don't believe in different prices for limited or full. I do have requirements to get full papers, and in the mean time they are limited until proof of requirements, but no extra charge.

Bottom line is you need to be comfortable with every thing. If so, then fine, if not, then perhaps you need to look elsewhere. There are probably some reputable breeders that are closer to you, that would potentially have a long coat puppy. 

Goodluck!!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

mnm said:


> There are long coats that come up in breedings all the time with two normal coated parents, but I just have a problem with specifically breeding for a long coat.
> 
> As for requiring that you purchase and feed a particular product, that does two things. Either you buy the products and they are making money off of it, or you don't and it voids the warranty/guarantee on your dog.


Well said!


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Her dogs are true long coats right? Meaning they don't have an undercoat.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Not a breeder I would go with. 

Just the NuVet is enough to turn me off, since it is something I associate with BYBs and greeders, rather than reputable breeders.

They have one litter on the ground, two more on the way, with another three already planned. How many litters do they have in a year? 

The dogs I looked at didn't have any titles shown, and incomplete health testing.

Their guarantee also puzzles me a bit. They require a dog to have hip x-rays done at "at least 12 months" of age for their guarantee, but if I remember correctly, you can't do OFA prelims until 18 months. They also don't offer a refund/exchange for any dog over 26 months. 

And for Dog's sake, could they have someone proofread their website?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Also another thing I noticed...

There are no official links to the dogs ancestry.....

Berlin and Hudson just have some pictures up...

And then they show ancestry underneath like they would at a pedigree database... 
eg. 
V1 Sacco vom leithawald

Official Databases check that all there registered dogs have the required pedigree papers and Certs to be listed... I cant seem to find a link to an official database on the website you gave...

So tread with care... Are the dogs breeding registered? why has she included lineage without a direct link to a databse for the dog? 


Just make sure you get your pedigree papers and it does have that lineage... Lineage looks more impressive than the parents... Thats for sure...

I have been tricked years ago on one of my GSD's before and never got papers even though I bought 'pedigree'.. Apparently the mom's hip dysplacia papers got lost... And she couldnt get registered... (complete rubbish excuse)...
At the end of the day I was too excited to get the puppy and didn't do the necessary checks... Dont take anybodys word on anything...

Make sure the parents are at least registered... And actually part of the line they are advertised as being part off.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Ok traced the father in the pedigree database:

Found this: Hudson vom Team Baierblick

The above is the official father of your dogs...

hudson-vom-team-baierblick...

I would ask to see his official papers 
Do the same thing with mom...

Then you are ok...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LeoRose said:


> They require a dog to have hip x-rays done at "at least 12 months" of age for their guarantee, but if I remember correctly, you can't do OFA prelims until 18 months.


No, you can submit prelims as early as 4 months old. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yeah I just looked at that and he looks nothing like he does in the pictures compared to the pedigree picture, but thanks for your time!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No, you can submit prelims as early as 4 months old. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


I have no idea how this works for a breeder...

Personally I get the dysplacia checks early for my self...

However a breeder needs checks done later I would believe...

The dog can still develop problems at a later stage... I dont think 4 months old preliminaries is a good idea for breeding...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm not sure what your point is, Lykoz. How would having prelims done at 4 months old, or any other age for that matter, have anything to do with breeding? You can't get an OFA rating until 24 months of age, and dogs _should _get a rating of Excellent, Good, or Fair before being bred. Whether those dogs were also prelimed prior to the age where they could get an OFA rating shouldn't be a factor one way or the other. They'll either get a passing rating when they're old enough, or they won't.

But in any case, I was merely responding to LeoRose, who questioned a requirement to have x-rays done at "at least 12 months of age", saying that you can't submit prelims that early. Not only can you have it done before 18 months, as s/he stated, you can have it done well before that if you choose. From the link:



> Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. *For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).*


I had Keefer's hips checked at 15 months old, when I had him neutered, and Halo at 13 months, when I had her spayed. At those ages, the reliability is over 95%, which was good enough for me.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm not sure what your point is, Lykoz. How would having prelims done at 4 months old, or any other age for that matter, have anything to do with breeding? You can't get an OFA rating until 24 months of age, and dogs _should _get a rating of Excellent, Good, or Fair before being bred. Whether those dogs were also prelimed prior to the age where they could get an OFA rating shouldn't be a factor one way or the other. They'll either get a passing rating when they're old enough, or they won't.
> 
> But in any case, I was merely responding to LeoRose, who questioned a requirement to have x-rays done at "at least 12 months of age", saying that you can't submit prelims that early. Not only can you have it done before 18 months, as s/he stated, you can have it done well before that if you choose. From the link:
> 
> ...



I read what you said in the wrong context...
Sorry.

Didn't realise it was pertinent to the guarantee but thought incorrectly that you meant the hip dysplasia certifications for the parents of the puppies.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

At, gotcha. Yeah, a prelim is just a prelim, it can be useful information but it's not a substitute for an actual OFA rating, which you can't get prior to 24 months. 

Since I don't breed, I didn't get an official rating on my dogs. Actually, Keefer's x-rays were read by a veterinary radiologist and I didn't even bother to send them to the OFA since he came back as "good" hip conformation. I did send Halo's prelims in, and she was also "good" for hips and "normal" for elbows. Mostly I wanted to know if I needed to take any precautions as far as their activities, and if they should be getting any sort of supplements. I wanted to do a sport with her, so it was good to know that she was structurally healthy enough. Halo is my flyball dog.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> At, gotcha. Yeah, a prelim is just a prelim, it can be useful information but it's not a substitute for an actual OFA rating, which you can't get prior to 24 months.
> 
> Since I don't breed, I didn't get an official rating on my dogs. Actually, Keefer's x-rays were read by a veterinary radiologist and I didn't even bother to send them to the OFA since he came back as "good" hip conformation. I did send Halo's prelims in, and she was also "good" for hips and "normal" for elbows. Mostly I wanted to know if I needed to take any precautions as far as their activities, and if they should be getting any sort of supplements. I wanted to do a sport with her, so it was good to know that she was structurally healthy enough. Halo is my flyball dog.


Debbi, I plan on doing a very early prelim OFA also on my new pup for the same reason as you. It is good to know how to proceed with activities and also for concerns when planning their menu and any supplements. I'm thinking probably around 6 - 9 months and then at 24 months. Hopefully my new pup along with other duties will also become my Service Dog for mobility assistance.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Kaimeju said:


> I could see requiring large breed puppy food to prevent HD, but the vitamins thing sounds a bit sketchy.


This is reallllly old but, I was re-reading this thread, and the breeder is going to feed the puppies of the litter adult TOTW instead of the puppy version because the sire is a little 'bigger' than the other males. The last time I checked, the adult formula has more calcium than the puppy formula. So it doesn't make any since why she would feed the adult formula when it has more calcium.. am I wrong?


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## Aviorwolf (Apr 10, 2013)

Bella, I sent you a PM.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

lol old thread.. thanks for the PM. I'm very happy with Troy who is from a different breeder.


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