# Worst BYB attempt to look reputable....



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

For anyone who is bored and has time to read the ramblings of some idiot.......(not ME, the BYB lol)

I Was just looking at cute pics of puppies on k9 stud and found this 'breeder' that had over 101 puppies on sale on the site, german shepherds, huskies, rottweilers, and golden retrievers. This was their quote:

"Due to popular demand we decided to do a multiple sired ltter between Sage AKC German Shepherd and Luke AKC Siberian Husky together to produce Shepskies and Sage and Apollo for AKC German Shepherds.Both will be excellent family companions and protectors. Expecting some Plush/Wooly coated pups as well as short coat Shepskies. Pups are expected to be ready in June/July 2011. All parents are AKC, vet checked, and x-rayed, Luke and Apollo are also AKC DNAd. Shepsky Prices will most likely be between 650 and 800. Prices are determined by bone structure/physical appearance, bloodlines, and MOST IMPORTANTLY personality and character traits and are set accordingly to make sure they enter homes that ultimately understand that no dog is free and are willing to put the effort and time into raising a proper and healthy dog. "

"We are specializing in QUALITY AKC German Shepherds and Goberian (Golden Retriever/Siberian Husky hybrid) puppies ."




Their website is the worst I have ever seen, and they have like 10 hidden fees you must pay to get a puppy.

EX
*"1. A $50 FEE is required to be placed on any waiting list. This is a FEE and does not go toward puppy price unless otherwise stated. 
*
*2.A deposit of $200 through Paypal (There is a 3.5% fee added in that does not go toward puppy price) is required to hold any puppy."  *


This is what they said about hip dysplasia checks and elbow checks:

(They claim that playing tug of war causes it)

"I am a firm believer that hip dysplasia is 90% environmental."

"We have chosen to address the most common Genetic concerns puppy buyers have that are often the most recommended for Breeders to screen for in all of their breeding parents. 

We have done much research on the advantages and disadvantages of these tests and have chosen not to waste our time, money, and energy on these tests. As you will see below and in your own research, these test are not an exact Science. As responsible Breeders, we strive to breed from quality, healthy and sound parents that will produce no less in their puppies. Our parents are all checked by a licensed Veterinarian and continue to be throughout our breeding process and their lives. This is how it has been done, very successfully, by many breeders for many, many years. "

FUNNIEST PART :

*And of the breeders that do have testing done, most do not have results for every test recommended, Why? Because either they too, feel it is a waste of time... Or they had a bad test result and decided to just not disclose that result to the buyers!* You need to understand that the majority of breeders having these tests done are only doing the bare minimum to make them look good to the average buyer that does not know all the details about these tests. They are not having these tests done as often as recommened, as it is costly and time consuming. And most buyers are unaware of how these tests are to be done correctly, it just sounds impressive to them because they are not educated about these tests and all they are hearing these days is that "The Genetic Testing needs to be done" Who do you think is saying that to you??? The Testing Companies!


They have a page dedicated to 'scammers' where they complain about people who didnt buy their puppies...


Their page of 'customer testimonies' only includes first names and every single person puts 5 !!!!! at the end of every sentence and capitalizes random words....hmmmm seems like the same person to me



---------------------------
Has anyone else seen crazy sites like this ???? I deleted the name from the post, so I figured it was ok to discuss it...


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

**not 101....I meant 10


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

wow....wow just wow


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

> We have done much research on the advantages and disadvantages of these tests and have chosen not to waste our time, money, and energy on these tests.


:headbang:

Wow, there are far too many bad words rolling around in my head right now. So I will just leave it at this....:angryfire:


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Makes me mad that some people will fall for this


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Holy smokes!!!! Did I read right? Is the bitch have two different litters of pups together???


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

vat said:


> Holy smokes!!!! Did I read right? Is the bitch have two different litters of pups together???


Nope, one litter, two fathers.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

BOOO!! They are doing this to a GSD named Sage 

Does it explain that while the parents may be AKC the puppies you purchase will not be AKC because they will be mutts?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I just want to slap these people!


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

And they'll get rid of all of them.
Sell them, I mean.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

*shakes head in disgust*


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

Wow...I find this amazing - from the website:

"*American Canine Hybrid Club papers to insure that you are getting a quality hybrid and NOT a MUTT. (You will be able to see the lineage of your puppy to insure they are half/half and not a mixture of 10 different breeds-which is what a mutt consists of)."

*Obviously, I have been mistaken about mutts all this time!


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I really hate this new "designer dog" craze not to mention BYB in general.
Wow $650 for a mutt? LoL my uncle just bought a shapokies or something like that. Schnauzer and yorkie mix for several hundred dollars. He was so proud of himself. LoL


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh wow, laws and the dictionary are also wrong about hybrids

I wish I could believe people were not dumb enough to buy this crap


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow, are people this disgusted when 2 different colored people procreate, or is that ok because there isn't a piece of paper written by a guy 100 years ago about how tall people should be and how they should behave?
I understand why purebred standards are in place but that doesn't mean if someone has other aspirations, the breeder should be mocked and the puppies are garbage.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It's not an accurate comparison. 

A$piration$.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Wow way to make the jump from dogs to people - apples to oranges. One has nothing to do with the other.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> Wow, are people this disgusted when 2 different colored people procreate, or is that ok because there isn't a piece of paper written by a guy 100 years ago about how tall people should be and how they should behave?
> I understand why purebred standards are in place but that doesn't mean if someone has other aspirations, the breeder should be mocked and the puppies are garbage.


If this "breeder" has any genuine aspirations, they wouldn't throw together two dogs for the purpose of creating a new breed. And un-health tested dogs at that. If they don't want to waste their money to do health testing, then they are nothing more than a byb. And a byb of this caliber should not in any way be supported, or even defended.

It's breeders like this that fill the shelters and rescues.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

The part about the health testing bothers me the most. This breeder is UNeducating the public about what a reputable breeder really is. That's the biggest shame of all.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

so according to this so called "breeder" my Aussie/BC mix is a hybrid?! and all this time I thought she was a mutt


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

Maybe the whole thing started as an accident and the "breeder" just has a clever imagination about how to get rid of these puppies to good homes.
Or not.


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## whitcoco (Feb 23, 2011)

We are professional/Certified Dog Trainer/Instructors and Occasional Breeders. 

First off we don't have "10 different breeds", we help other breeders/friends and have their dogs advertised on our account as well.

We currently breed Goldens, German Shepherds, Siberians, and Goberians a total of 8 breeding dogs. 5 of which are females and are ONLY bred once a year and ONLY if we have 4-6 people on the waiting list. All dogs have been x-rayed and vet checked and are on NuVet Plus and are only fed premium food such as Taste of the Wild. None of our puppies have gone to a shelter, we REQUIRE pictures/vet records (if applicable) every 3-6 months proving so. None are "accident" litters and we love each and every pup, hence why we have whole litters sold before they are even conceived. And ONLY sell to people who can afford to take care of them properly! (Vet, food, NuVet, exercise etc), most likely the people who want a $200 dog will not care for them like they deserve. 

Just because we do not believe in the hype of a healthy dog equals OFA _papers_ doesn't make us bad breeders. So all of the dogs your dog is derived from who were bred before OFA were bred by bad breeders?

Every reputable breeder doesn't want to lose money through paypal, have you used it? There is a fee if it is not sent as a personal transfer and to do that the money has to be in the paypal account already, we tell people this and if they want to wait they are welcome to wait until it transfers over so there will not be a fee. 

All dogs have started out as a mix between other dogs, do you know how the GSD become about? By the mixture of 4-5 other dogs so if we go by your claims they are just pedigreed mutts.

Also, our testimony page has no number ratings or anything in bold. I'm not sure where the source is looking. 

All of our puppies are raised underfoot in our home and socialized daily, started on basic obedience and crate/house and leash training before leaving. 

I find it funny how these "reputable breeders" have to spend their time bashing others instead of out with their dogs, caring and spending time with them like they claim to be.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Goberians? 

Is that a Golden/Siberian cross?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:rofl: My head exploded


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I gotta ask... How is it that when a breeder is bashed on this board, said breeder appears as a brand new member in that thread and outs themselves?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Usually someone e-mails them and sends a link to the thread. 

Expensive mutts. I can drive to most any shelter and find a Shepherd/Husky mix and not have to pay that kind of money. I'm not even sure what the point is behind such a cross as they are two breeds in completely different categories.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Now that my sanity is back...

Since you are breeding GSDs I hope you stick around and learn about GSDs. Hopefully you'll gain some knowledge and do things the right way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What the **** is a Goberian? Sounds like an alien off of Star Trek. I can spend less money and get a mutt from my local shelter. Any dog that is NOT a purebred is a mutt. Doesn't matter how many different breeds are in it's make up.

btw...there are no breeders that have responded on this thread. All potential buyers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

whitcoco said:


> We are professional/Certified Dog Trainer/Instructors and Occasional Breeders.
> 
> First off we don't have "10 different breeds", we help other breeders/friends and have their dogs advertised on our account as well.
> 
> ...


So you are going to make a new breed of dog? Why, what is it that your new dog can do, that cannot be accomplished by one of the current 200+ breeds out there? 

How in the world are your eight breeding dogs going to start a new breed. Do you have any idea what you really need to go through to do it properly. 

Max Von Stephanitz was a very well-to-do and influencial person prior to breeding dogs. He had a network of people and ran the club he created for the breed like a dictator. He took German Sheepherding dogs and refined them to create a German Shepherd. 

But you are going to change the world with eight dogs. Great. You have a whole bunch of others. So what really happened, after you bred your shepherds, did the husky get your bitch?

Whatever. Talk about irresponsible. Anyone deliberately creating mutts -- unreal. Now if we were going from automobiles to sled dogs because of the energy crisis, and needed to increase sheep production due to the cost of beef, and needed a strong, dog that could protect their owners from the desperados, pull the family vehicle fifty miles a day, and herd the family's meat supply maybe a shepherd/husky mix would make sense.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wow. Sheperdskys and Goberians. I feel like I'm re-reading Oryx and Crake. 

I just want to point out that these dogs are NOT hybrids. They are mutts or mixed breeds. You could even call them designer breeds. A hybrid is an animal like a wolfdog, coydog, mule, or liger.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> What the **** is a Goberian? Sounds like an alien off of Star Trek. I can spend less money and get a mutt from my local shelter. Any dog that is NOT a purebred is a mutt. Doesn't matter how many different breeds are in it's make up.
> 
> btw...there are no breeders that have responded on this thread. All potential buyers.


Alien off Star Trek!!!
:rofl: :spittingcoffee:

I better not tell my husband! He'd be all over that


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

whitcoco said:


> We are professional/Certified Dog Trainer/Instructors and Occasional Breeders.
> 
> First off we don't have "10 different breeds", we help other breeders/friends and have their dogs advertised on our account as well.
> 
> ...


Are your dogs titled in working and/or conformation? What's makes them good enough that you think that they should have offspring? Why are you making german shepherd/siberian crosses, what kind of 'new breed' are you hoping to create? These are two very different breeds, and I can't imagine what sort working environment they'd excel in. 

I find it annoying when every mutt breeder says that every dog breed started off as a mutt. That is true, but those mutts were created for a specific purpose. There are very few new breeds being created to do a specific job, most are just created because they'd make cute puppies. How are your mutts different? What are they designed to do? Why would they do this job better than a breed that can already do that job?


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

GSD_Xander said:


> Alien off Star Trek!!!
> :rofl: :spittingcoffee:
> 
> I better not tell my husband! He'd be all over that



The first thing I thought of was Goser the Goserian from Ghostbusters. 

To the "breeder"- your breeding mutts and apparently not even healthy ones if you aren't even getting basic testing done on the dogs. Disgusting.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

As a service dog user, I'm appalled at the placement of service dogs without testing hips and elbows... Luckily it looks like none have been placed yet, but a further expansion of their business in the works..


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

whitcoco said:


> And ONLY sell to people who can afford to take care of them properly! (Vet, food, NuVet, exercise etc), most likely the people who want a $200 dog will not care for them like they deserve.


As a person who has paid adoption fees to save dogs from being put to death, I find that statement highly offensive.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

whitcoco said:


> We are professional/Certified Dog Trainer/Instructors and Occasional Breeders.
> 
> Every reputable breeder doesn't want to lose money through paypal, have you used it? There is a fee if it is not sent as a personal transfer and to do that the money has to be in the paypal account already, we tell people this and if they want to wait they are welcome to wait until it transfers over so there will not be a fee.


Professional? Reputable? Yet you admit to trying to skirt Paypal policy. Hardly professional. The Paypal policy CLEARLY states that you MAY NOT accept personal payments for goods or services:



> 4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.


You also may NOT ask the buyer to pay a 3.5% paypal fee:


> 4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.


https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?...eement_full&locale.x=en_US#4. Receiving Money.

Professional my ***. Ridiculous.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People deliberately mixing shepherds with other dog breeds. That is kind of like shoving a bloody chicken into a group of hens. Let the education continue...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't know much about paypal but if they are admitting to defrauding paypal someone should report them and give proof so they may be banned from paypal and penalized accordingly.

I am also wondering if they are trying to pass of their GSD/Husky mixes as full blooded pups to provide AKC paperwork. Then they could be banned from AKC.

Wondering where they received certification to train. Bet that is made up as well.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
Currently you are not a responsible breeder. You have no arguement otherwise.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Lilie said:


> As a person who has paid adoption fees to save dogs from being put to death, I find that statement highly offensive.


Good point. I adopted Logan for around $175.. I can't remember exactly, their normal adoption fee was $250 but he hadn't been chipped or vax yet and they let me adopt him early and do it at my vet. 2 years later, I paid $4,000 when he spent a week in the ICU at purdue vet hospital. Then he passed away another 9 months later.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax was the best $75 I ever spent when I sprung her from death row. I don't have a clue what I have spent on training, toys, food, vet.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Jax's Mom said:


> I understand why purebred standards are in place but that doesn't mean if someone has other aspirations, the breeder should be mocked and the puppies are garbage.


If someone TRULY wants to create a new breed I say more power to them.

BUT - creating a new breed is NOT taking an X breed female and putting it with a Y breed male, giving the offspring some cutsy name that's a combination of the breeds used and selling the puppies.

Creating a new breed requires years of research, an in-depth understanding of genetics, very carefully planned breedings starting with F1s and working up to F4s and then being able to breed true to your desired new breed.


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## whitcoco (Feb 23, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> I don't know much about paypal but if they are admitting to defrauding paypal someone should report them and give proof so they may be banned from paypal and penalized accordingly.
> 
> I am also wondering if they are trying to pass of their GSD/Husky mixes as full blooded pups to provide AKC paperwork. Then they could be banned from AKC.
> 
> ...


Of course the Shepskies are not going to be AKC. All pups and parents are going to be DNA'd and Microchipped and papered accordingly. 

I trained through Hearts of Gold and through PennFoster and was mentored by a trainer in the area.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

sagelfn said:


> I am also wondering if they are trying to pass of their GSD/Husky mixes as full blooded pups to provide AKC paperwork. Then they could be banned from AKC.


I wonder too. I know AKC registers multiple sire litters, but what would they do if they found out that someone intentionally used a sire of a different breed as one of those sires. I can't imagine they would be too happy. Doesn't every pup in the litter need to be paternity tested to get registration papers for them?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

whitcoco said:


> Of course the Shepskies are not going to be AKC. All pups and parents are going to be DNA'd and Microchipped and papered accordingly.
> 
> I trained through Hearts of Gold and through PennFoster and was mentored by a trainer in the area.


No comment on defrauding Paypal? How professional is that...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

angelas said:


> I wonder too. I know AKC registers multiple sire litters, but what would they do if they found out that someone intentionally used a sire of a different breed as one of those sires. I can't imagine they would be too happy. Doesn't every pup in the litter need to be paternity tested to get registration papers for them?


Yes, you can use two sires on one litter, and every puppy would require DNA testing to assure who the pop was.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Wrong, just wrong. If I want a GSD/Husky mix I will go to my shelter. There is a Husky/Border Collie mix at my shelter that I am totally in love with.


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## whitcoco (Feb 23, 2011)

wildo said:


> No comment on defrauding Paypal? How professional is that...


Sorry, I was reviewing the rules on Paypal. We do actually charge $55 instead of $50 to those who send in through mail to cover gas to town and back to pick up the check/money order and I'm guessing people will start bashing over that now. 

The personal account states that a "Payment owed" can be sent as personal, the waiting list was considered a payment owed. Again I will change that.

Thank you for pointing it out. My mistake. And I admit to that.


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## whitcoco (Feb 23, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> If someone TRULY wants to create a new breed I say more power to them.
> 
> BUT - creating a new breed is NOT taking an X breed female and putting it with a Y breed male, giving the offspring some cutsy name that's a combination of the breeds used and selling the puppies.
> 
> Creating a new breed requires years of research, an in-depth understanding of genetics, very carefully planned breedings starting with F1s and working up to F4s and then being able to breed true to your desired new breed.



How do you know that we do not plan on doing so? This is our F1 litter. We can use outside sires as well to continue the breeding and in fact are in the process of a Goberian/Golden litter with a co-owned pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, because we never go and get the mail unless we expect a check from a dog buyer. 

One of my puppy purchaser's is paying me off $25/wk. I have to walk down my 100'+ drive to the mail box to pick up the check and then drive into town to deposit it into my bank account, I suppose I should probably charge an extra $5-$10 for that, LOL!

How much is that at the end of the year? 

Talk about it being all about the money... Shepskies. Sounds like you could find them in PetsMart next to the boots and raincoats.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

whitcoco said:


> How do you know that we do not plan on doing so? This is our F1 litter. We can use outside sires as well to continue the breeding and in fact are in the process of a Goberian/Golden litter with a co-owned pup.


Because you are not bothering about hip and elbow dysplasia. 

Sorry, no way are you going about producing a new breed in any reputable way. 

Never bothered to say what the mixture is supposed to DO, and why you need a dog that can pull a sled, retrieve birds, and herd sheep in one.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

WOw....and people got upset about Ebay Classifieds......
YEP.....breeder websites are a MUCH more professional way......look what you just came upon in this thread.
Good grief....


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

What makes your "shepsky" different from any other GSD/Husky mix? german shepherd husky mix - Google Search=

What traits from your GSD are you hoping to bring out? Does your GSD fit the GSD standard? Same for the Husky. What is your goal?

Why not be honest about what you're doing? You are misleading potential buyers. 

You say you are a trainer. Why don't your dogs have any OB titles?


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## whitcoco (Feb 23, 2011)

selzer said:


> Yeah, because we never go and get the mail unless we expect a check from a dog buyer.
> 
> One of my puppy purchaser's is paying me off $25/wk. I have to walk down my 100'+ drive to the mail box to pick up the check and then drive into town to deposit it into my bank account, I suppose I should probably charge an extra $5-$10 for that, LOL!
> 
> ...


Our personal and business mailboxes aren't the same. But according to Paypal you must charge the same fee you charge people who pay through paypal as the ones who don't. Only reason we have to do so. Most of the time the extra fee comes OFF of the puppy price, the website hasn't been updated on that page and was put on there under advice of another breeder, I am going to change the "fee" to "deposit" as it actually is. We also don't charge regular delivery fees like most breeders do. We only charge what our gas receipts shown upon delivery.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Regular delivery fees???

I just drove a puppy to another state for someone, I did not charge a red cent for that. Nor the bag of dog food. Nor the martingale. 

Whatever. 

I was looking at those photos -- people of WalMart today.

This is kind of like, Breeders of WalMart. 

Psssssp.... Whitcoco, you're exposing yourself pretty badly. You might want to just stop before you drop any deeper.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

You also require puppy buyers to buy some supplement called Nupro or else your warranty is null and void. I'm just guessing that you are a distributor of that supplement so you make money off that too.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

spiritsmom said:


> You also require puppy buyers to buy some supplement called Nupro or else your warranty is null and void. I'm just guessing that you are a distributor of that supplement so you make money off that too.


Nuvet, not Nupro.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That stuff is like $20 per bottle, and my guess is yes, they are either making money directly by selling it to them, or they are getting some type compensation for the recommendation.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Well I was close!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> That stuff is like $20 per bottle.


Ha! :crazy: The smallest bottle is $55! I looked into Nuvet before I settled on Nupro. I think Nuvet is a good product; basically a multivitamin for dogs. I don't think it's a bad product or a scam, but I think that voiding a puppy buyer's warranty for not giving it is a shady practice.




spiritsmom said:


> Well I was close!


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. They are two different but similar products; I just didn't want people to be confused. Nuvet is sold through a distributor program where the breeder gets a commission for selling it to their buyers. Nupro is not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I have bought a couple of bottles for $20, but it is only like a month's supply. And my dog food person says that the zinc content makes it not a good choice for dogs eating the food I am feeding, so, it is sitting at home getting dusty.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I've used Nupro on my dogs so it was just first on my mind - you weren't rude at all. I just felt sheepish for posting the wrong supplement name.

Dang Nuvet is not cheap, sheesh. That's why they are required to use it or void the health guarantee. They win either way - bonus money from selling the stuff or out of standing behind their guarantee if they don't buy it.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I was looking at those photos -- people of WalMart today.
> 
> This is kind of like, Breeders of WalMart.


Definitely Breeders Of Walmart (Parking Lot Version). 
Sheilah


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Originally Posted by *whitcoco*  
_And ONLY sell to people who can afford to take care of them properly! (Vet, food, NuVet, exercise etc), most likely the people who want a $200 dog will not care for them like they deserve. 

_



Lilie said:


> As a person who has paid adoption fees to save dogs from being put to death, I find that statement highly offensive.


 
You find that statement highly offensive? I'm absolutely seathing! :angryfire:


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

selzer said:


> Never bothered to say what the mixture is supposed to DO, and why you need a dog that can pull a sled, retrieve birds, and herd sheep in one.


I'd really like to hear the answer to this. What is this breeder trying to achieve? What's the goal? What traits is the breeder breeding for, and are these traits really so exclusive to this mix that they can't be found in an already established breed? Is there even a need for a dog that has these traits?

The website says that the dogs are bred to be family companions, so this breeder is a pet/mutt breeder. You can find so many pet quality mixes in shelters, people don't need to be specifically breeding for this goal.

Also, why do mutt breeders insist on naming their new breeds by combining two purebred names together? Shepkies? Goberian? Come on. At least other new breeds like 'Shiloh shepherd' were more creative about it.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Because names like "Crapperds, ****kies, and Mongrolberian"...were not as cute....
*...sorry...had a bad day...*


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:rofl: Robin


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> WOw....and people got upset about Ebay Classifieds......
> YEP.....breeder websites are a MUCH more professional way......look what you just came upon in this thread.
> Good grief....



Yea, because when there are people out there like this, that take the time and money to set up a website then how many would rather just throw a free ad up on ebay. 

It is all disgusting.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Because it's still JUST... ADVERTISING Dharma....no matter how you want to seperate the two. *Crap is Crap....no matter how you *disguise* it.
Your intentions are meritable...but one sided.
JMO


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Out of curiosity what is preventing an "unreputable" breeder from simply saying what you "want to hear" Thats my biggest worry when looking for a breeder, one that "talks the talk" but does not walk the walk... so to speak.

I mean all it would take is for this dude to "edit" his website to say all the proper things then people are REALLY screwed. 

And there are places where you can setup free websites as well...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Proof Polistes

You can look up and verify OFA, titles, check pedigrees, etc..


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Cant you forge those as well? Though I suppose calling the AKC or other dog club will quickly determine whether your being hoodwinked or not.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

I wonder if the dogs they're using in their "breeding program" were sold with the intent they would be pets...I guess if you're breeding hybrids then you don't need papers (or at least don't need full registration).


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

DharmasMom said:


> Yea, because when there are people out there like this, that take the time and money to set up a website then how many would rather just throw a free ad up on ebay.
> 
> It is all disgusting.


In addition to their website, this breeder has thrown up ads for puppies and studding services on ebay too.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Sounds like one of those "puppy mills" Its too bad they are still around.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

Shepskies sounds like one of the Three Stooges from Eastern Europe.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm on the fence right now about this thread whether it should stay or GO,,it's very disturbing BUT, KEEP THE breeder bashing out of it, BE CONSTRUCTIVE.

BASHING is not allowed, so if this thread is to remain, try to contain yourselves (know thats hard because I have some negative thoughts as well) or unfortunatly, this thread will be shut down..


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm on the fence right now about this thread whether it should stay or GO,,it's very disturbing BUT, KEEP THE breeder bashing out of it, BE CONSTRUCTIVE.
> 
> BASHING is not allowed, so if this thread is to remain, try to contain yourselves (know thats hard because I have some negative thoughts as well) or unfortunatly, this thread will be shut down..


REMEMBER ALL OF THE ABOVE!!! 

whitcoco............just to give you a heads up, generally the breeding practices we support on this site are well explained http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Just so you know where many of us are coming from.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Good God.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

I have a question......putting aside the medical certifications, how are you ensuring good temperament in your program?

Having seen the majority of dogs coming through behavior modification being "designer" types and each carrying the worst of both breeds I would like to know just how you are going to avoid this situation. 

Such as your Shepskies! Taking the drive of a Shepherd and adding more drive of a Husky how are everyday people supposed to manage this type of dog in everyday life.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

valreegrl said:


> Such as your Shepskies! Taking the drive of a Shepherd and adding more drive of a Husky how are everyday people supposed to manage this type of dog in everyday life.


The drive of a Shepherd with the independence of a Husky scares me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Polistes said:


> Cant you forge those as well? Though I suppose calling the AKC or other dog club will quickly determine whether your being hoodwinked or not.


It wouldn't be very easy to forge a set of AKC or SV papers well enough to fool someone who had seen them before. 

If a breeder claims OFA certs, you can verify those through OFA. If they're saying their dog has a Sch title or obedience title, those can be verified through the organization.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Emoore said:


> The drive of a Shepherd with the independence of a Husky scares me.


Exactly  

I hope the people buying this type of dog are well aware of the ramifications, and own stock in dry wall


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## emsoskar (Oct 17, 2008)

opcorn:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Exactly
> 
> I hope the people buying this type of dog are well aware of the ramifications, and own stock in dry wall


Not to mention that the Sire is 12.5% wolf. Even at a low-low quantity wolf, I find it incredibly irresponsible to be creating wolfdogs. It's fairly well documented that they don't make good pets. Mix it with the concerns above, and this is *not* an easy mix to deal with...

Their website states:


> Sire is 50% Samoyed, 12.5% wolf, 18.75% Siberian Husky and 18.75% German Shepherd. (Owned by second party-not by [Kennel name removed] )


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm on the fence right now about this thread whether it should stay or GO,,it's very disturbing BUT, KEEP THE breeder bashing out of it, BE CONSTRUCTIVE.
> 
> BASHING is not allowed, so if this thread is to remain, try to contain yourselves (know thats hard because I have some negative thoughts as well) or unfortunatly, this thread will be shut down..


I wouldn't consider them a breeder, more of a puppymill. Big difference.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I wouldn't consider them a puppy mill at all. They have fewer than 10 breeding dogs and they say their females are bred no more than once a year. Puppy mills are those terrible, hellish places where hundreds of dogs are warehoused and bred without ceasing until they're used up. They eat, sleep, give birth, and die in their own filth. 

This is a puppy mill: CAPS vs. Bauck on Vimeo

I strongly disagree with these people's breeding practices, but I wouldn't call them a puppy mill.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I just can't get my head around why anybody would want to spend that kind of money for the exact same thing they can find at a shelter or a rescue. I really don't get it.


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## BOHICA Bay (Jan 26, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I just can't get my head around why anybody would want to spend that kind of money for the exact same thing they can find at a shelter or a rescue. I really don't get it.


Well, silly, it's because those dogs at the shelter are mutts or mixed-breeds, these are shepskies, SOOO much different  I am so tired of seeing designer dogs marketed and something special.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

whitcoco said:


> How do you know that we do not plan on doing so? This is our F1 litter. We can use outside sires as well to continue the breeding and in fact are in the process of a Goberian/Golden litter with a co-owned pup.


 
Because you wouldn't be slapping an outrageous pricetag on their tails and selling them as soon as they're ready to go without even knowing what you have...you'd keep them, see what you "created" and learn of modifications that need to be made to make your "better" breed instead of making a quick buck.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't know if I ought to bang my head into the wall until their stupid stops bothering me, or bang their heads into the wall until their stupid just stops.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> I don't know if I ought to bang my head into the wall until their stupid stops bothering me, or bang their heads into the wall until their stupid just stops.


Now, that's funny stuff right there.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lilie said:


> Now, that's funny stuff right there.....


I don't care who you are!....

Sorry...couldn't resist adding that! :wild:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

whitcoco said:


> We are professional/Certified Dog Trainer/Instructors and Occasional Breeders.
> 
> First off we don't have "10 different breeds", we help other breeders/friends and have their dogs advertised on our account as well.
> 
> ...


 
Unbelievable!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

whitcoco said:


> Of course the Shepskies are not going to be AKC. All pups and parents are going to be DNA'd and Microchipped and papered accordingly.
> 
> I trained through Hearts of Gold and through PennFoster and was mentored by a trainer in the area.


But did you advise people how to defraud PayPal?

"trained thru"?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Aren't those correspondence courses? I just want to point out that taking a few dog training courses does NOT make a person a dog trainer. It might give a piece of papers stating a person is but that doesn't mean a person knows what they are doing. Please, when looking for a trainer, make sure their 'certification' is backed up by KNOWLEDGE!


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> Aren't those correspondence courses? I just want to point out that taking a few dog training courses does NOT make a person a dog trainer. It might give a piece of papers stating a person is but that doesn't mean a person knows what they are doing. Please, when looking for a trainer, make sure their 'certification' is backed up by KNOWLEDGE!


Hearts of Gold is with West Virginia University and is an actual course. But from what I'm seeing of the curriculum, the students aren't exactly learning to becoming trainers. It's like an introductory course that most of us get at a basic obedience class with our own dogs.
Hearts of Gold - Courses

And yes, PennFoster is an "online college".

Not impressed with the "breeder's" credentials.

I took a quick peek at the website. Very disturbing... Reads like the almighty dollar rules over all else, including common sense.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

My favorite are the "Service Dogs" they "train" and charge plenty of extra money for. As per their website -



> have placed 2 dogs so far into Service/Therapy homes


Someone please tell them that Service Dogs and Therapy Dogs are two VERY different things and have very different training and very different work. 

Oh, and then the Service Dog you buy from them will know "over 60 commands" and 



> They will get their CGC certificates and will be registered with the United States Service Dog Registry and will come with a certificate, tag, and their personalized vest.


Two issues. One, every dog with BASIC OBEDIENCE can pass a CGC. Second, Service Dogs need to learn tasks specific to the needs of their disabled handler, not just a laundry list of "commands". Third, the United States Service Dog Registry (The United States Service Dog Registry) is another one of those SCAM REGISTRIES that you send some money to and you get, in return, a certificate and "ID" card.

Ridiculous.

Personally, I don't know how I would feel about having a dog "trained" by these "experts", considering the center photo on their website shows a dog with an incorrectly fitted prong. If you can't even FIT your equipment and put it on properly, how the heck can you TRAIN with it?

Of course, since none of their breeding stock have any listed accomplishments, only a "list" of "names/accomplishments in their pedigree include ..." (somewhere down the line, I'm sure ... their one GSD's pedigree is posted on PDB, no SchH on the dog, or its parents. First SchH title is two generations back) Since they're such great "trainers", you'd think they'd actually do something with their dogs. You know, besides breeding. A bunch of completely different breeds. Together. XD

Really love this one, too, from the Goberian page -



> Goldie and Peyton tied on November 15th and 18th! Goldie is Approx. 63% English lined and *Peyton is roughly 35-40% English lined from a first glance look at his pedigree, I haven't had a chance to really analyze it yet though.*


Way to research lines before breeding. XD

Also, did anyone notice this on the Shepherd/Husky puppies page -



> Dam to the litter will be an AKC German Shepherd. (*From a litter produced at our kennel*- she is 75% German lines/25% American lines).
> 
> and further down
> 
> Dam to the litter *is training to be a Service Dog* so will produce quality, sound temperaments.


I sure as heck hope the dam to this litter is NOT the one listed on the "previous German Shepherd Puppies" page that is "in training to become a Service Dog", as that site states she will "be here until she is 1 and a half years to 2 years old. She is training to be a Service Dog and *is currently 7 months old* and knows 17 commands."

I sure as heck hope the site is really, really outdated and they didn't just breed a less than a year old puppy to produce these mixed pups. XD


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I have noticed that the name calling has stopped. Quoting the breeder and checking credentials is making the breeder look much worse than the name calling.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Lilie said:


> Now, that's funny stuff right there.....





Jax08 said:


> I don't care who you are!....
> 
> Sorry...couldn't resist adding that! :wild:


Perfect! :thumbup:


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quoting the breeder and checking credentials is making the breeder look much worse than the name calling.


Agreed. "Breeder" does a great job looking like the BYB they are, just by what they are posting on their website (and by what they are NOT posting, too). The fact that they are coming here, to a community of people who DO things with their dogs and DO support REPUTABLE breeders (and know what to look for), is just funny. They're just making themselves look more stupid AND are reaching a wider audience who can caution people to keep away from them when searching for a reputable breeder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Originally Posted by *whitcoco*  
_And ONLY sell to people who can afford to take care of them properly! (Vet, food, NuVet, exercise etc), most likely the people who want a $200 dog will not care for them like they deserve? _

I'm still curious as to how much money do I have to spend purchasing a dog that would ensure that I will care for them like they deserve. And is there some sort of ******* price sheet that I can utilize as a guide to my social standings in doggydom?


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

> Because Service Dogs typically range between 4,000 and 10,000 we are now taking donations to help cover the costs of training, boarding, socialization etc. All donations are welcome and will be deducted from clients cost! Your donations are also tax deductible!


 
I think this is what really gives me the willys....no where on their website do they indicate that they are working with a specific service dog trainer or group or that they are a501(c)(3) or a tax exempt organization that can make that kind of statement..."your donations would be tax deductible." 

The last I check with the Internal Revenue Code, these are the groups that can make that claim:

*Public charity* - A public charity receives a sizable part of its income from the public (broadly, not just from family and friends) or the government. This is defined under IRS codes 509(a)(1) through 509(a)(4).
*Private foundation* - A private foundation gets most of its income from investments and endowments and uses that money to award grants to other groups. This falls under IRS Code 509(a).
*Private operating foundation* - A private operating foundation is a private foundation that donates most of its assets directly to the causes it represents, rather than awarding grants to other charities. This falls under IRS Code 4942(j)(3).


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

whitcoco said:


> And ONLY sell to people who can afford to take care of them properly! (Vet, food, NuVet, exercise etc), most likely the people who want a $200 dog will not care for them like they deserve.


I guess I'm at risk to not take care of my Golden Retriever properly since we paid $200 or so for him.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

will_and_jamie said:


> I guess I'm at risk to not take care of my Golden Retriever properly since we paid $200 or so for him.


If I'm understanding correctly, you are not providing the life he deserves unless you are breeding your Golden to the neighbors' dog (it doesn't matter what it is). Please let me know when you do so I can think of some cutesy name to call your new breed.....of course you'll owe me for my creativity regarding the naming rights...... and you'll owe me for using my idea to acutally breed your dog..... and the small fee for reading your post......and then there is the usual fee that I'll have to charge you for actually typing this reply.....no worries, you can pay me through Pay Pal....don't forget to add the normal fees for using Pay Pal....


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Lilie said:


> If I'm understanding correctly, you are not providing the life he deserves unless you are breeding your Golden to the neighbors' dog (it doesn't matter what it is). Please let me know when you do so I can think of some cutesy name to call your new breed.....of course you'll owe me for my creativity regarding the naming rights...... and you'll owe me for using my idea to acutally breed your dog..... and the small fee for reading your post......and then there is the usual fee that I'll have to charge you for actually typing this reply.....no worries, you can pay me through Pay Pal....don't forget to add the normal fees for using Pay Pal....


When my neighbor comes home, I'll go talk to her about breeding my male Golden with her female Chihuahua even though it's impossible and even if it were possible, it will kill the dog, but yeah I'm sure she'll be up for it. Your services are so valuable. I'd never be able to think of them on my own. Thanks so much for your time!


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

I always wanted a "sheplab".....

A golden X whatever your neighbors dog is would be cool too LOL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh!! Not a Gohuahua!!! Anything but that!


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## BOHICA Bay (Jan 26, 2011)

While we're busy designing dogs - I want a Jack Russel x Shih tzu ---we shall call it the Jack-s**t


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

BOHICA Bay said:


> While we're busy designing dogs - I want a Jack Russel x Shih tzu ---we shall call it the Jack-s**t


:rofl: Best combo yet!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

BOHICA Bay said:


> While we're busy designing dogs - I want a Jack Russel x Shih tzu ---we shall call it the Jack-s**t


Lol!

Or how about a bull terrier and a shih-tzu? Then you get a Bull****!


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

"I find it funny how these "reputable breeders" have to spend their time bashing others instead of out with their dogs, caring and spending time with them like they claim to be."


First off, wow. I posted last night, went to bed, went to class, then came home to 11 pages of replies.

To the owner of the site--I never started this thread to "bash" you....I started it because many people are confused by what a reputable breeder and back yard breeder are, and I wanted to show that just because someone has a website it doesn't mean they are a reputable breeder.

And also, in response to the above quote...most of us are not breeders and writing a five sentence long response does not take away from us spending time with our dogs.........


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

will_and_jamie said:


> When my neighbor comes home, I'll go talk to her about breeding my male Golden with her female Chihuahua even though it's impossible and even if it were possible, it will kill the dog, but yeah I'm sure she'll be up for it. Your services are so valuable. I'd never be able to think of them on my own. Thanks so much for your time!


No problem! It's all about me!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I don't know if I ought to bang my head into the wall until their stupid stops bothering me, or bang their heads into the wall until their stupid just stops.


This is the best thing I've read all week.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> Lol!
> 
> Or how about a bull terrier and a shih-tzu? Then you get a Bull****!


Wait- that may be even better than jack s***!:wild:


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> My favorite are the "Service Dogs" they "train" and charge plenty of extra money for. As per their website -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did it say they've already placed 2? I think the website changed since I posted about them training SDs! I can't find the same page I read the other day.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

BOHICA Bay said:


> While we're busy designing dogs - I want a Jack Russel x Shih tzu ---we shall call it the Jack-s**t






Syaoransbear said:


> Lol!
> 
> Or how about a bull terrier and a shih-tzu? Then you get a Bull****!


:spittingcoffee:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Can someone pm me the link for this "breeder"?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

jaggirl47 said:


> Can someone pm me the link for this "breeder"?


If you google "goberian breeder" they're the first breeder that pops up.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Wow


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I hope the thread does not get deleted. Mods if you must please lock it and delete what is needed so that this thread pops up when people search the breeder. Hopefully no one else will be fooled by them.

I do not think they will be back to try and defend themself


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I will say something non related to the breeding program itself:

I sure hope that someone shows them how to properly fit a prong collar eventually....


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I am trying to figure out how this is their F1 litter coming up when they have had 3 litters since 2008? I know F1 is first generation breeding, but this person is seriously crooked and can't even be honest with themselves. It's sad.


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## Kay (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm very sad that these people exist. Those poor pups are probably being purchased by people that have no idea hat they're getting into and will end up unwanted in shelters; that is the worst part... breaks my heart :/


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Any time you put two different breeds together the breeding is an F1.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I haven't read this whole thread, but does anybody else find it extremley *shallow, and offensive* to take half the name of one breed and half the name of the other and call it a HYBRID, or a NEW breed??

Do you realize that people put in YEARS of hard work and selective breeding into developing Siberians and Golden Retrievers, and every other REAL breed? How *incredibally disrespectful* and irresponsible....This really, really upsets me. At the very least come up with a PURPOSE and a name of your own. And to think that health testing is pretty much just a joke, ESPECIALLY when trying to "create" a new breed as you are, that is just throwing your own "new breed" under the bus and setting it up to fail as a whole. THE DOGS ARE MUTTS.

MUTTS!!! 
U
T
T
S


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Kay said:


> I'm very sad that these people exist. Those poor pups are probably being purchased by people that have no idea hat they're getting into and will end up unwanted in shelters; that is the worst part... breaks my heart :/


 
"A fool and his money are soon parted" :nono:

HSUS estimates 4 million pets are euthanized each year in the U.S. :gsdsit: 

I'm no big fan of HSUS, but I do support my LOCAL Humane Shelters. :hugs:

With so many animals being killed, I'm making a personal choice to only rescue, or adopt surrendered dogs. I won't buy from a puppy mill, a back-yard-breeder, a front yard breeder, a "proffesional" breeder, a designer dog breeder, or any other breeder.

Sure, I realize that I probably won't get a "perfect" puppy this way. So what?!?! :rolleyes2: Lifes a gamble. 

I've just made it my choice not to be part of the _demand_ side of this supply and demand equation.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I think certain people (NO NAMES! DONT WANNA BREEDER BASH!) should consider "bullshihtz" as their breed of focus. It would suit them better if they can't refrain themselves from breeding two animals.

KIDDING! Ok I'm done now.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

i feel bad for the dogs in shelters. because now, why would someone want to get a shelter dog normally who is a mix, isnt perfect, and normally shelter dogs are older. most of the puppies go quickly in the shelter. but why would someone buy that dog from the shelter when they can get a puppy from this breeder. if more of these "breeders" surface and claim to be reputable they will be 2x or 3x as many dogs in the shelter and less people to adopt them. why get something that has a past and could have potential problems when you can get the same "cute" mix from a breeder as a pup. personally, some mutts are cute, ive had 2 shelter dogs and i loved them both, but i wouldnt pay 600-800 for them. until proven by this breeder otherwise, i feel that the combinations of these breeds are not benificial and bring nothing to the table. as a potential buyer, personally i would rather go to my shelter, pick out a nice dog and if it has problems take it to a professional trainner and spend my $$ there than supporting a breeder who just breeds dogs to create new breeds just for the heck of it. unfortunately there are plenty of people out there who won't. they want to raise this mix like they want, and when it has problems, dump it in a shelter. i feel sorry for the pups born to these breeder types because they are born without a purpose.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Where did it say they've already placed 2? I think the website changed since I posted about them training SDs! I can't find the same page I read the other day.


That was on the "Dogs That Help" page, which WAS located between HOME and OUR FACILITY earlier today, before they read the posts here, got scared, and removed, changed, and altered much of their website. 

I went back to the "Dogs That Help" page, the link to which was still saved in my browser cache, and they are now changing that page. They have removed the reference to "Service/Therapy" to just read "Service" and they've removed the tax-deductible donation bit. 

DISHONEST!

And FYI, they are altering and removing much of their website to reflect what they have been criticized on and learned from this thread, such as the "tax deductible donation" bit (that being illegal and all) and the PayPal fees (that being against PayPal's terms). They have also removed the link to their "training" business, any reference to their "beliefs" on what causes dysplasia and why they don't test for it, even the town in which they are located.

They're also changing a ton of the information. Seems that now, suddenly, they are "in the process of OFA-ing all breeding dogs". They've even added a page on rescues/shelters now with a couple of links.

They're still bragging up that a lot of their dogs are dual registered AKC / APRI (scam registry - "America's Pet Registry, Inc.) or CKC (Continental KC - BYB registry) or ACHC (another scam registry - "American Canine Hybrid Club"). Let's see how long THAT stays up now that it's been mentioned.

The "Service Dog" in training is now no longer available, apparently. The Goldie/Payton litter where it said she hadn't had "time to look at his pedigree in depth" has had that removed and a note inserted about finding a companion on Petfinder.com instead. The Shepherd/Husky mix page (the litter they bred out of their "Service Dog" in training, who is less than 2 years old) is gone, too.

Loads of notes that they have "surveillance cameras" have been inserted, though.

BAD, BAD, BAD breeder and seriously DISHONEST business people. Skirting the edges of illegal in a lot of their practices (like the tax deductible donations), too.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I wish someone had been able to save their pages before they made all the changes. People seriously should be warned about this "breeder" and their less-than-honest business.


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## emsoskar (Oct 17, 2008)

I believe the super quallities of the shih tzy are worth mixing with any other breed. I mean, why not. Don't know about you, but I'm betting a big ol' hairy goldenshihtz would be a top seller. Or perhaps a nice box-er-shihtz. and how about the siber-shihtz for the "cyber" savvy folks?

ah ok. I'm done now. Ban me if you must


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

emsoskar said:


> i believe the super quallities of the shih tzy are worth mixing with any other breed. I mean, why not. Don't know about you, but i'm betting a big ol' hairy goldenshihtz would be a top seller. Or perhaps a nice box-er-shihtz. And how about the siber-shihtz for the "cyber" savvy folks?
> 
> Ah ok. I'm done now. Ban me if you must


rofl!!!


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## RockinIt (Jan 29, 2011)

Wow...


:dogsledding: 
My Gerberian Shepskies

^^^Was that in bad taste???^^^
:hammer:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

AbbyK9 said:


> I wish someone had been able to save their pages before they made all the changes. People seriously should be warned about this "breeder" and their less-than-honest business.


You can google: "cache:[website]" to see the old version. At least I can see the old version. Probably the most important thing to persist is their ridiculous view on scientific testing:



> Our Views and Research on Genetic Testing We have chosen to address the most common Genetic concerns puppy buyers have that are often the most recommended for Breeders to screen for in all of their breeding parents. We have done much research on the advantages and disadvantages of these tests and have chosen not to waste our time, money, and energy on these tests. As you will see below and in your own research, these test are not an exact Science. As responsible Breeders, we strive to breed from quality, healthy and sound parents that will produce no less in their puppies. Our parents are all checked, x-rayed, and approved by a licensed Veterinarian and continue to be throughout our breeding process and their lives. This is how it has been done, very successfully, by many breeders for many, many years. I would agree that the tests would be a wonderful thing if... 1) They were accurate and reliable 2) If breeders understood that the results of the tests should not eliminate dogs that test less than "Excellent” As this will lead to more in-line breeding. And that more In-line breeding is what has caused serious health issues is certain breeds to begin with. For example: Pugs with serious breathing disorders, English Bull dogs that cannot mate or deliver pups naturally. German Shepard’s that have serious hip problems. I believe in the long run these tests are going to do more harm then good to the purebred lines! Information about the testing being done..... HIP DYSPLASIA: OFA or PENNHIP Testing Hip Dysplasia can be caused by environmental issues (excessive exercise such as tug-of-war, jumping in the air and landing on hips, excessive stair climbing during it’s development as a puppy or obesity.) “Strenuous exercise before the bones are grown can cause many bone problems, including hip dysplasia. "Bad rearing and feeding probably is responsible for most bone problems.. At this moment in time there does not seem to be a definite inheritance factor, as two dogs, X-ray cleared, can throw a dog with hip dysplasia, and vice versa." 1 Dogs cannot be x-rayed and certified until after 2 years old. Even if both parents are certified Excellent, they can and do produce puppies with good, fair, or poor hips. (This explains it’s self… A puppy that was allowed to jump, run, over eat, or has poor nutrition can develop Hip Dysplasia no matter what the parents test at. Also, they can have it even if parents have no signs of it. Last is the fact that if the x-rays are taken too close to the female's heat cycle, it will show incorrect results.) I am a firm believer that hip dysplasia is 90% environmental. I also believe that a lot of joint problems are subline scurvy. When a wolf kills a deer the first thing they eat are the internal organs which include the kidneys, they are rich in vitamin C NOT CALCIUM . Excess vitamin C is expelled through the kidneys so it is very hard to overdose a dog with it. Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA): “PRA is found in all sizes but is most common in the smaller Poodles. PRA causes the retina to degenerate gradually and eventually leads to blindness. It usually comes on late, when the dog is 5 to 7 years old.” 2 This book does go on to reference The Canine Eye Registration Foundation, commonly referred to as CERF, which “certifies” dogs free of eye disease. 2 (However, as the quote says, PRA shows up in later years, beyond breeding age for most breeding dogs. If it does show up at that time, how will this affect the offspring that were produced when the dog was deemed “Clear”? This test is useless to dogs of breeding age, as it does not show up at that young of an age. ) “Standard Poodles rarely inherit eye trouble.”1 Sources of Reference1 - “The Complete Standard Poodle", Author Eileen Geeson, page 1332 - "The Essential Poodle", Howell Book House, page 28 Information Taken from the Testing Companies’ Own Web-Sites…. CERF Evaluation (Eye Testing) The certification is only good for 12 months from the date of the exam and afterwards the dog must be re-examined and re-certified to maintain its' registration with CERF. Test results can change from month to month on a dog, therefore testing must be repeated yearly. PRA does not show up until later in life, after breeding years of a dog. Therefore a dog could test “Clear” for several years only to have PRA later in life. (Also, If a breeder gets a bad test result, they would never tell anyone and then just go to Dog Show Clinics and re-test until they get a good result or they would just not let anyone know they h=ever had the test done and never show the poor results to anyone. Or their dog tests "clear" only to have it later after it is past it's breeding years.) VON WILLEBRAND’S DISEASE: Several Veterinarians said it is rarely, if ever seen in their clients' animals. If a female does not show excessive bleeding during her first heat, or if unless any puppy or adult dog show excessive bleeding for a minor abrasion or cut, it is very unlikely this disease exists. Sebaceous Adenitis Flea bites and other irritations form matted hair coats or vigorous grooming can cause mild inflammation, shampooing the dog 2 weeks prior to the SA biopsy sampling, if the biopsy samples are taken within of 3 inches from topical flea control product application sites, they can result in equivocal test results. (The accuracy of this test is not 100% because of human error in getting the samples. Also, if the breeder has raised their dog since birth up to breeding age, they would know if the dog has SA as their would be signs of skin problems and/or hair loss during that time. It is best to always see current photos of the breeding Sir and Dam if you cannot meet them in person.)
> 
> *** See part 2 had to remove over the 1000 word limit/repasted on pg 16*****


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Chris thanks for pointing out the things they have changed and posting it for record.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> ou can google: "cache:[website]" to see the old version. At least I can see the old version.


Excellent! 
I hope everyone here saves the cached version to compare to the "new" version.

ETA that only works for the index page for me. Once I went to the "Dogs that Help" page, it showed the new version w/o the tax deductible stuff?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

AbbyK9 said:


> ETA that only works for the index page for me. Once I went to the "Dogs that Help" page, it showed the new version w/o the tax deductible stuff?


Sorry- I noticed the same. I tried on other pages too, and wasn't able to see a difference. At least the index page works (for now). I assume eventually google would update its cache and that info would be lost.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

The bad thing about forums like these is that these bad breeders can learn and then change their tactics to sucker people who have done their research into getting a bad dog anyways.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

> The Goberian puppies will be American Canine Hybrid Club registered.


So I looked it up  achclub

Anyone see the homemade kennels? 

Link to reputable breeders on her site 
Someone of this caliber does not know what a reputable breeder is

I am at work and do not have time but here is a link to cache searches Archives of Dead Web Pages: Wayback, Cache, and More


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> The bad thing about forums like these is that these bad breeders can learn and then change their tactics to sucker people who have done their research into getting a bad dog anyways.


Which is why it's doubly important to have information available for people looking for puppies that tells them what they should look for and what they should ask before they ever give a breeder any money for deposit.

The sheer fact that these people breed a bunch of different breeds and create mixed litters would be a huge red flag to anyone who has done any research on how to find a quality breeder.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I would say their constant talk of money, specifically the bolded red text stating no refunds all over every page would be the huge red flag (literally!) for me.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I just love how this breeder and the "reputable" breeders they link all go on about how their GSDs are "excellent protectors", yet not one of them is involved in any type of protection work...


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Samba said:


> Any time you put two different breeds together the breeding is an F1.


 
I know the first time 2 different breeds are together is an F1. However, they have had 3 mutt litters since 2008. I am trying to figure out how this next litter is their F1, or at least how they consider it that. What is their plan? How are they monitoring? You know...things like that. Kinda why is this 4th litter different than the other 3?


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> I just love how this breeder and the "reputable" breeders they link all go on about how their GSDs are "excellent protectors", yet not one of them is involved in any type of protection work...


While not really going to deliberately support this breeder I will say that the GSD I worked with was a great protector even though he himself had no training, you could not raise your hand to another person as if you were going to strike them, he would grab your wrist gently and restrain it. It did not matter if it was his owner or someone else, "threatening movements" towards people or other dogs were not tolerated.(And by threatening I mean like actual movements like you were going to strike the other person or dog, simply raising your hand would not illicit that response from him it was really cool to see.)


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> that the GSD I worked with was a great protector even though he himself had no training, you could not raise your hand to another person as if you were going to strike them, he would grab your wrist gently and restrain it.


The problem with that is that it is an exception rather than a rule.

When you look at these types of breeders, you will find almost all of them describe their dogs as "excellent protectors" and having "great temperament" without having done anything at all to test either their ability and willingness to protect or their temperament, and they are often entirely clueless as to what constitutes either.

I've found that most of the time, when these types of breeders talk about dogs that would make "excellent guard dogs" or "working dogs", they have dogs that are fear aggressive and therefore show a lot of aggression. They don't generally have anything to do with protection sports or actual protection work, don't understand their dogs' drives or temperament, but think that a dog that acts aggressively should be advertised as an "excellent protector" or "great guard dog" because there will be that dumb person who trusts their judgment and will give them plenty of money for that dog.

I've also noticed that this type of breeder uses "great temperament" a lot to mean "has no drive and will lie on the couch all day / let the kids hang all over him because he's too lazy to move."

The point is, when I see a breeder telling me about temperament or abilities of their dogs, and the things their dogs excel at, I like to see them back this up with something other than their opinion ... for example, with the opinion of an impartial judge who has seen this dog work on a field away from home, maybe under stressful conditions. Heck, I would settle for the breeder having seen their dogs do any work beyond sit, down, stay at this point. (And before anyone says it, a CGC is *not* enough of a test of temperament in this case. Anyone can put a CGC on a dog. I put a CGC on Ronja within a month of getting her. Big deal.)


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

What you say is definetly true.  Though it CAN happen but as you said its the exception and Dakota is an exceptional GSD, but if I were a breeder I would not state such a fact without having titles to back up the claims.

And off topic but whats wrong with a lazy GSD? I would think that in this day thats a trait that would be bred FOR


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> And off topic but whats wrong with a lazy GSD? I would think that in this day thats a trait that would be bred FOR


What's wrong with it is that this is a WORKING breed and should be able TO WORK, not just lay on the couch. There are too many breeders producing what looks like a GSD but doesn't act like one. That's as bad as producing GSDs that are "rare" colors (like liver or blue) or purposely breeding for huge size.

A breed is a breed due to its function and standard. When you ditch one because it "makes more sense" and "people want it", it's no longer correct for the breed.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

I see thanks for the info.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Wow, has the "breeder" ever changed her website...



> The last time the whole website was updated (As in the Services page, Customer Testimonies, Company Policies etc-pages other than Available Puppies/Previous Puppies was 2/10/2010, I have now tried to update as much as possible (2/24/2011)during this some things were deleted and some things added as things have changed in our breeding program and outlook on a number of different things. If you have questions or concerns please feel free to email me with them and I will be happy to help!


Not only has she removed the dishonest parts of her site, she's also taken to addressing our discussion...



> We have also gotten a lot of harassment and bashing towards our "mixed breed" puppies and would like to say that some people don't want anything to do with a mixed breed from a breeder and others do, it's a BIG world out there and everyone is entitled to their opinions/beliefs/wants. We love all of our dogs and always do what is best for them. I know some will try to say we are "Bad breeders" because of this, more power to em, that is what they believe in. We believe in providing quality family companions with desired traits such as loyalty, obedience, and who have stable, healthy temperaments who had a healthy start in life. We know our dogs and have spent several years observing them and their offspring and are very pleased with the results. We DO recommend getting a rescue or shelter dog as a companion for your dog or if you are wanting to save a life right now. We have ALWAYS stated this in all our ads etc and have recommended them to all our puppy buyers.


I find it interesting that they NOW have included links to rescues and petfinder...sure wasn't on her site prior!

I also like that she's addressed the question as far as her "training" ability and defending her "education". She has set up a new website for her "training" program. She is charging $180 for a 6 week basic obedience class.



> We are also now offering Basic, Advanced, and Service Dog training. One on One sessions. We have a website on rates etc but I haven't updated it since I made it. Feel free to take a look and email with any questions you may have. *her BRAND NEW TRAINING website removed by me* - We are also training a GSD as a Service Dog right now who will be ready at around 2.5 years of age(She will initially be taught 60 commands but we can add or eliminate any command that the individual will need), she will be spayed before leaving but will come with all her documents and her Service Dog vest specially made for her. I have had training/mentoring and have gone through PennFoster(which included lessons, projects and hands on activities) to become certified. I have been training (professionally) for 2 years now and have been training our own dogs in basic obedience etc for around 5 years. Positive reinforcement is the key to success, training the owners brings an even greater success.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Addressing her new training website...she is making this claim about the Service dog program she has:



> _Service Dog Training_is aimed towards dogs who have completed basic obedience 1 and 2 and want to continue working as a Service Dog. This class will include 37 commands and will continue to work on public outings/socialization and will receive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought training a service dog was more involved in just teaching a specific 37 commands.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Part TWO of WIldo's posting: (had to remove over the 1000 word limit)
Diane


Autoimmune Thyroiditis - Thyroid The disease has variable onset, but tends to clinically manifest itself at 3 to 5 years of age. Dogs may be clinically normal for years, only to become hypothyroid at a later date. The marker for autoimmune thyroiditis, thyroglobulin autoantibody formation, usually occurs prior to the occurrence of clinical signs. Therefore, periodic re-testing is recommended. The majority of dogs that develop auto antibodies have them by 3 to 4 years of age.(This means that any test done on a dog will be cleared before it actually has markers or clinical signs, which usually doesn’t show up on dogs until ages 3 to 5 years.) Most breeders that do have this test done; have it done when they are ready to begin breeding the dogs, usually at 2 years of age (Usually too young for the markers to show up) Also, most breeders only have it done that one time. And of the breeders that do have testing done, most do not have results for every test recommended, Why? Because either they too, feel it is a waste of time... Or they had a bad test result and decided to just not disclose that result to the buyers! You need to understand that the majority of breeders having these tests done are only doing the bare minimum to make them look good to the average buyer that does not know all the details about these tests. They are not having these tests done as often as recommened, as it is costly and time consuming. And most buyers are unaware of how these tests are to be done correctly, it just sounds impressive to them because they are not educated about these tests and all they are hearing these days is that "The Genetic Testing needs to be done" Who do you think is saying that to you??? The Testing Companies! These are just a few reasons why we do not feel the need to have these tests done on our breeding dogs. Many websites will advise you to deal only with a Breeder who performs all the “recommended” health screening tests for genetic diseases, and that only “reputable” Breeders practice this in their breeding program. But Please remember that all of these Companies are out to make a profit, so OF COURSE they are going to tell you that all dogs need THEIR test before breeding! These tests are very costly and an imperfect science, the cost will be reflected in the purchase price of your puppy with no more of a guarantee from health issues then are already in place with our carefully picking quality dogs to breed. Please research the most common diseases and the percentage of chances this disease may exist among the dogs owned by the breeder in question Your warranty is the most important part of your purchase when you are considering a “Reputable Breeder” and picking your puppy! There is a large profit in the dog breeding world for Companies that do all of these type of testing, so of course they are trying to get people to believe that all dogs should have “their” test done before breeding. A good quality breeder has already checked the family history and blood-line of the dogs they are breeding… We do this before we ever buy our breeding dogs! Our Vet has treated them during this time. There is a lot of time, effort, and expense involved long before any puppies are actually born. There are some breeders that are trying to take a few short cuts. They don’t take the time to study and learn about the family history of the dog they want to breed before they buy it. Or they buy a dog as a family pet, never have it spayed or neutered, then say, "Oh, we have such a Great dog, we should breed it." Never knowing anything about the dog’s family medical history! For these types of breeders, they should do any and all testing that is out there even if it is not an exact science, and do them often! Bad breeders breed low quality, unhealthy puppies![/quote]


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

The Service Dog program is downright ridiculous and a great example of what happens when people who know nothing at all about Service Dogs but think they know a little about training decide they need to make more money. XD

First, I would like to see all this "training experience" backed up with something. Like, oh, competitive titles ... such as obedience. Or agility. Or something relevant to doing something with your dogs that involved training. Preferably something more than CGC, TDI, Rally Novice, etc. 

Second, I would love for them to understand that a Service Dog is ONLY a Service Dog when the dog is WORKING for ONE disabled person who is LEGALLY disabled as well as MEDICALLY disabled. And then the dog has to be trained SPECIFIC tasks that help the SPECIFIC disability of THAT SPECIFIC handler. Training a laundry list of commands does not a Service Dog make, nor does it give a non-disabled person the right to take the dog in public.

And third, the "United States Service Dog Registry" is a SCAM REGISTRY and means NOTHING. Might as well just print their own certificate and buy a $35 vest of ActiveDogs.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Wrong, just wrong. If I want a GSD/Husky mix I will go to my shelter.


 
Just for the fun of it, I went to Petfinder, put in my zip code and got the following:

Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Bloomington, MN | Thor



Just sayin'

There are 6 of them.

:gsdsit:


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Aww now we have landsharks with the independence of the husky! They are cute though!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Polistes said:


> Aww now we have landsharks with the independence of the husky! They are cute though!


Yanno that was my thinking too....Huskies are cute, heck my Novice A dog was a longcoated sibe. My family had 2 huskies and I've worked with a bunch more, NO WAY would that be my first choice to add to a mix intended to be family pets. They definitely are NOT for everyone!


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

German Shepherd Dog x Pug = Shug

REALLY?! Im gonna assume.... that it was a male pug, and a female german shepherd.... and.... WHAT THE **** WOULD THIS LOOK LIKE. it baffles me. REALLY?!
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/s/shug.htm

hmmmm.... no thanks.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

How would a male of that size perform the necessary deed?


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Zoeys mom said:


> How would a male of that size perform the necessary deed?


 
LOL......True love always finds a way.

:rofl:


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

CassandGunnar said:


> LOL......True love always finds a way.
> 
> :rofl:


:spittingcoffee:

Determined little bugger


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Females can be quite accomadating when they want to be. My guess is she lay herself down for him. The idea that someone would AI that combination would really be unreal.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I thought AI would be the only way,lol but I guess if she was lying down it would be possible though I am pretty grossed out trying tp imagine what a pug/shepherd cross would look like.


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> I thought AI would be the only way,lol but I guess if she was lying down it would be possible though I am pretty grossed out trying tp imagine what a pug/shepherd cross would look like.


Thats what i was saying and failed miserably at haha. I thought they could only AI that as well. 

Guess i was wrong! :crazy: The link i put on there if you scroll down has a few pictures of a shug. not my cup of tea....


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

not to mention, i couldnt see a female pug..... giving birth to a pug who was half GSD! lol. ouchies much?! :wild:


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

There had to be pictures,lol Not as horrid as I was imagining honestly but still not for me either,lol


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> There had to be pictures,lol Not as horrid as I was imagining honestly but still not for me either,lol


AGREED. i also had something WAY WORSE in my head lol


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## Marshmallows (Jan 28, 2007)

CassandGunnar said:


> LOL......True love always finds a way.
> 
> :rofl:


Very true 
I heard a story of a female Mastiff accommodating a male Chihuahua by backing up to a bed. And I have seen more than one Lab/dachshund cross.


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