# Help with aging female GS..."Molly"



## 38lisajohnson (Dec 2, 2015)

Hi, I am new here. As a matter of fact, I've never joined a forum before. But my baby girl is having some issues, and I need some good, educated advice.

Molly is about 11 years old. She is purebred. She has had joint problems since she was a year old. She also now has hip problems. She's been taking glucosimine-condroiten all her life. Recently, she started wetting herself. Just a little. I initially thought bladder infection, so I got her some cranberry pills. She took the whole bottle at adult dosages, but it never helped. I got her VetriScience Bladder strength canine formula pills. She's taken about half the bottle at recommended dosages. Her bladder leaks have as of tonight turned into serious, full on bladder incontinence. It happens when she is laying down sleeping. She get's up and she's soaked and so is the floor. She also has bloodshot eyes. Has had them for many months. She has only been to the vet a handful of times because she DOES NOT do well with other dogs or people. She is NOT nice. We didn't intentionally raise her this way, but when we got her we lived in a bad neighborhood, I was a stay at home mom, and she was pretty much our protector. It was a role she naturally fell into. The neighborhood is now safe, and she does great here at home, but out in a new environment her defenses go up and her manners go out the window. I called the vet prior to buying the last bottle of vitamins, and she said Molly is "at that age" and has "lived a long life". I know I need to take her back in for a visit and some confirmation. My question is: Do I make hubby take the day off work and come with us? Just in case the vet recommends euthanizing? My son is a Marine, and is coming home for Christmas. Molly has been a part of his life for over half of his life. Do I wait until after he goes back? We lost our other canine companion just a year and a half ago, so we are NOT ready for this. But that doesn't mean SHE isn't ready for this. 
Any advice?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi 38lisa and Welcome!
I'm so sorry.

But, why not take a urine sample into the vet just to see if it could be a bladder infection causing this? I'm a holistic person, but sometimes when things like cranberry tablets or herbals (like the VetriScience Bladder) is not working, you need to go the western medicine route and get an antibiotic.

If it happens to be a UTI and the leaking stops, after the meds, ask your vet about Adequan Shots for her joint problems. There are also MANY other herbals you can try for her comfort.

If it is time....... maybe all three of you could go with her when your son gets home. You could ask you vet for a light sedative to keep her calm before you would take her in.

Moms


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## 38lisajohnson (Dec 2, 2015)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi 38lisa and Welcome!
> I'm so sorry.
> 
> But, why not take a urine sample into the vet just to see if it could be a bladder infection causing this? I'm a holistic person, but sometimes when things like cranberry tablets or herbals (like the VetriScience Bladder) is not working, you need to go the western medicine route and get an antibiotic.
> ...


Thank you so much for your advice. I will ask the vet about these options when I call later today.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

The urine sample can help figure out if its an infection that can quickly be cleared up or if its due to her issues with mobility.Iam sorry you and Molly are going through this. The euthanization question could be delayedand perhaps done at home or maybe it doesnt need to be looked at right now. Im going through this w/ my boy Lucky. Its a difficult issue to judge balanv=cing pain and meds with quality of life. My thoughts are w/ you.


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## 38lisajohnson (Dec 2, 2015)

Thank you Daisy&Lucky'sMom!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Absolutely, grab a ladle, get a urine sample and take it in.

No need to put the girl through unnecessary stress. I hope it turns out that a quick round of antibiotics will fix her problem.
I would hate for your son to come back and not find her. Please tell him thank you for his service.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Even if there's no bladder issue found, there's also RX medication to help stop leakage that your vet can think about for her (Proin is one of the brand names). That medicine is very inexpensive, and there's a generic for it I think. It worked great in a senior male I had. You can also buy washable "pants" for incontinent dogs at Dr. Fosters & Smith - they have disposable pads inside (kind of like Poise pads for people). They also have disposable diapers for dogs. 

My point is there are LOTS of options here before you have to confront putting her to sleep. Just put that out of your mind, and instead think of this as a care issue about finding the right management for her geriatric issues.

I totally agree with Moms about Adequan. It's actually one of my vet peeves when they recommend putting down an old arthritic dog without at least _offering _it. The reason, I think, is that a lot of vets simply don't know about it or know how to use it. Or they wrongly assume clients won't be willing to pay for it. I've found it much more widely used with younger vets -- _esp. _vets who know anything about horses (as it came out of the racehorse world before it started being used n dogs). I fired the first vet I consulted with who wanted to deal with arthritis _only _with NSAIDs. I will use NSAIDs when they're needed, but they're not a long-term solution--they're a temporary fix, with risks, while working toward a better endgame with Adequan, exercise and good supplements.

If she's not good at the vet, you may need to talk with the vet about sedating her for her next visit for two reasons: one is to do a urine draw (that can be painful), and two is to get a good set of xrays to see what's going on in the hips. I don't think with seniors its wise to assume it's HD arthritis without xrays as there's so much else that can cause pain -- from pulled muscles to bone cancer. If you have to sedate for those two things, think about anything else that needs to be done at the same time (dental cleaning??) so that she's only under one time for everything to minimize the need to do that again any time soon. 

With a dog bad at the vet, you can ask the vet to let you do the Adequan shots at home. It's cheaper that way, and less stressful for the dog. I know lots of people who do that with their vets permissions (most buy it online through Valley Vet with their vet's RX). Otherwise, to do the loading dose, you have to go into the vet office for a shot twice a week for 4 weeks....then probably every other week for life to maintain. 

That sounds overwhelming at first and like it's just a lot of shots. However, the results are astonishing when it works: I had one go from barely able to shuffle behind me on a slow walk to trotting at a fast clip, in 3 weeks. He stopped needed his carprofen/Rimadyl (that was the *goal*) and had more mobility than he'd had in years. We always knew when he was at the end of his two weeks and needed another shot--he felt better very fast after he got it.

Please also look at the old threads here on arthritis management. Gluc/chon is not all that effective compared to other supplements. It's not harmful, but it's unlikely to be enough to give the dog enough relief either, without adding something more. A gluc/chron pill that also adds some MSM would be a step up.

I think arthritic dogs should be on a big dose of fish oil, for the anti-inflammatory benefit (+ vitamin E, the mixed tocopherol type). 

I'm a huge fan of Natural Eggshell Membrane supplement, and there are a few threads on it. I also think Type II Collagen (Biocell II is the trade name) with hyaluronic acid is good stuff -- you can buy as a supplement or make it yourself with chicken or turkey bones (esp. necks). Carmen (Carmspack) and Gatorbytes have posted their bone broth recipes to extract it out of the bones -- those recipes are in the archives in the old threads about arthritis.

Others have had good results with tumeric and duralactin, among others. 

All these supplements can support the Adequan. My vet (who's an evidence based vet) told me that dogs that get Adequan, supplements, and good exercise seem to do much better than dogs who just get one of those things. There's some synergy that happens that's more than the sum of the parts. That's how we were able to fade away the NSAID for my old dog, and give him better quality of life than when he was on it. We added 2 _really_ good years to his life this way. He'd have kept on going if cancer hadn't gotten him first.

There's really great info here, if you search those old threads. If this old dog is still enjoying life, there's a lot you can do to support her and maybe give her some more quality time.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Absolutely, grab a ladle, get a urine sample and take it in.


Have you been able to do this?? Every time I've tried to catch it to take in, the dogs stop peeing as soon as the ladle gets close! We had to do a sedated urine draw with my last one--she was due for a dental, so we combined it, but I'd have really like to have been able to just drop off a sample. 

What's your secret to catching the urine before they stop peeing?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP - There's plenty to do with incontenence besides euthanizing the dog. There are doggy diapers and there are piddle pads. Piddle pads worked great with my last aging bitch. I would place them under her when she laid down. They are very absorbent. I think the cheapest I found them was at Walgreens. Doggie diapers work if she is moving about (also lined with an absorbent pad.) You can also modify baby diapers to fit.
Red eyes may be irritation or allergies. Talk to the vet about possible eye drops.
For mobility, I would recommend accupuncture and chiropractic or lazer treatments. I know your dog isn't keen on other folks but perhaps the right practitioner would work out. There's also a book out on T Touch for dogs that might help.

Magwart - secret is to have the dog on lead and have them used to you being close- And use something that isn't so foreign as a ladle. (I used a 6 or 8 ounce plastic container that once held yogurt when I needed to do this.)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Magwart said:


> Have you been able to do this?? Every time I've tried to catch it to take in, the dogs stop peeing as soon as the ladle gets close! We had to do a sedated urine draw with my last one--she was due for a dental, so we combined it, but I'd have really like to have been able to just drop off a sample.
> 
> What's your secret to catching the urine before they stop peeing?


Gosh, no secret, LOL. 

I guess I just have a good pee-er. :wild:

Once he starts, he goes!

And, yes, he was on leash.


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## 38lisajohnson (Dec 2, 2015)

Thank you everyone! I spoke to the vet's office and they have set up a day next week for me to bring Molly in first thing in the morning, before all the other dogs and people are there. They are thinking it has something to do with her spaying and the muscles weakening. They are considering a medication to treat that. But they also want to do a head to paw look-over to make sure it isn't anything else.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

38lisajohnson said:


> Thank you everyone! I spoke to the vet's office and they have set up a day next week for me to bring Molly in first thing in the morning, before all the other dogs and people are there. They are thinking it has something to do with her spaying and the muscles weakening. They are considering a medication to treat that. But they also want to do a head to paw look-over to make sure it isn't anything else.


That's great. My Daisy was when younger was the dog we made special plans for taking to the vet. Sounds like your getting some answers. I have to get a urine sample from my Charlie as husbansd saw a spot of bloof so Ill be trying everyone's suggestions.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Gosh, no secret, LOL.
> 
> I guess I just have a good pee-er. :wild:
> 
> ...



As soon as I bent down to catch it, she stopped peeing and looked up at me like I was nuts. After a few tries, I had to stop because she's a very soft, shy dog, and I don't want her to become reluctant to be next to me at potty time. She's also a deep squatter who gets close to the ground, which doesn't make it easy to sneak under her from behind. 

My boys could probably be coaxed to hit a container for target practice because...boys. I've never been able to figure out how to get anything under a female in time to catch it, before she stops, and low enough to the ground. A yogurt container would be too tall for the low, deep squat. It would need to be very shallow to get under her.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Magwart said:


> As soon as I bent down to catch it, she stopped peeing and looked up at me like I was nuts. After a few tries, I had to stop because she's a very soft, shy dog, and I don't want her to become reluctant to be next to me at potty time. She's also a deep squatter who gets close to the ground, which doesn't make it easy to sneak under her from behind.
> 
> My boys could probably be coaxed to hit a container for target practice because...boys. I've never been able to figure out how to get anything under a female in time to catch it, before she stops, and low enough to the ground. A yogurt container would be too tall for the low, deep squat. It would need to be very shallow to get under her.


Ha! I know what you mean Magwart! No way our boy would let us get even close to "his package" while peeing! LOL:laugh:

I had our vets office laughing hysterically a few months ago when they asked me to catch a urine sample and I told them I can not get it in a cup.
I found a zip loc baggie in the car, and asked them for some tape. Opened up the baggie, placed it over his personals, put a piece of tape on both side and took him out to potty! Wallll-la! Urine went right into the baggie!

Since then, I occasionally practice with a plastic ladle, just in case it needs to be a sterile sample. 
I put him on a leash, walk around with him, and every time he finds a spot to pee, I bend down putting the ladle under him. Then when he goes, I give him a BIG hooray....good boy and sometimes a treat!!!!

I use a aluminum pie plate for our female who also squats low.

38lisa....so glad you are taking her in to see the vet! Finger's crossed for you!

Moms


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Magwart said:


> As soon as I bent down to catch it, she stopped peeing and looked up at me like I was nuts. After a few tries, I had to stop because she's a very soft, shy dog, and I don't want her to become reluctant to be next to me at potty time. :


:wub: Awwwwww... She's a lady!

I wonder if others have trouble getting a sample that way from females...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> :wub: Awwwwww... She's a lady!
> 
> I wonder if others have trouble getting a sample that way from females...


 It took me almost a week to get a sample from Shadow. Every time I tried she stopped. Had the same issue with Sabi as well.


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