# My GS pup doesn’t want to be touched



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

My pup is 17 weeks old now and I’ve had him for 4 weeks. He’s very calm and follows me everywhere. He will play with toys. He’s perfect in every way but he will not let me touch him. He was not socialized at all by the breeder. 

Should I continue to wait for him to approach me? I understand he will lick me or put his head on my lap when he trusts me. How long could this take and should I do anything to accelerate this process? He needs a vet visit but he has not had a collar or leash on him to date.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

If you are new to GSDs, normal behavior is that they want to be touched all the time and will find some way to touch you even when you are sitting down ignoring them. A GSD head on your foot while you surf the web is entirely normal. I don't think I have ever seen one that really didn't want to be touched by its own family. Also standard behavior is wanting to walk between your legs repeatedly -- a full body hug from their point of view. 

It could be the same thing my male showed. I got last pick of the litter and he (the largest) was the last because he was shy when approached by strangers. People picking out puppies usually go for the eager ones first. He was shy and hesitant with me for a while when I got him home. Now, of course, it is quite different. I have to move his 100+ pound body out of my lap in order to write this. 

It took a few weeks for my male to get over it. I don't remember how long but it could have been a month or a little more. There are times when the dog must be touched, so you have to get them used to that as quickly as possible. My approach is to just act like I normally would with a dog. There are times that I have to wash him or groom him, so I did that as I normally would, and still do today. If he protests, I simply talk to him and tell him that it isn't that bad, like you would do with a kid. It didn't take long before he understood that me touching him was never going to be unpleasant. 

I would probably also do something like sit quietly on the couch watching TV and occasionally randomly offer him a treat, if he wants to come get it. First, he has to come to my side. Then, he has to touch me, put his paw on my leg or something. And finally, he has to crawl into my lap (even at 100+ pounds) to get it. He will get the idea. Mine is still quite shy with strangers, but a typical GSD to the family.

As always, be careful what you want, because you may actually get it. Now let me push this beast out of my lap so I can post this message.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Some dogs like to be touched and others don't. My last female was selective. she liked to lay tight to my legs on the ottoman but not on me. when she wanted attention she would bark at me. My male, even though he seeks attention more would be on the floor somewhere near me until the new puppy came and then he wants to lay on me for a few minutes before going off to lay on the floor. My 10 month old? She's a tornado but again when she's done will go find her place that she wants to be on the floor somewhere. I don't find any of them "cuddly" except for first thing in the morning when they want attention. After that they want to be near me but not on me.

But they all LET me touch them. What have you done to build engagement with him? Any games like tug? Do you work on just general handling with him and treating me?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

None of my dogs are overly affectionate. They like to be near me but not on me. I think that is fairly typical of the breed. 

What have you been doing to form a bond that you both enjoy?


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Think about getting down physically. Sit on the floor. When outside, lie on the grass (and roll around and be silly). Humans on the floor or ground seem to be very interesting to dogs. I guess the two leg bit is boring?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sometimes playing with them puts a lot of focus on your hands, so there's a period where maybe they aren't real sure about your intentions. Maybe a little expectation in them of some play, so its confusing when you reach out. Try to keep play focused on a toy and step by step practice just touching him calmly and briefly. No petting or grabbing at first, just a calm hand.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> None of my dogs are overly affectionate. They like to be near me but not on me.* I think that is fairly typical of the breed. *
> 
> What have you been doing to form a bond that you both enjoy?


Please tell that to my 100+ pound boy, and his 90 pound sister, who are both trying to sit in my lap as I type. I have had several. They were all the same. I had one that I had to tie up to take pictures of him because he wouldn't get far enough away for me to focus the camera. 


I agree that they are aloof with strangers. I disagree about their relationships with their families.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

middleofnowhere said:


> Think about getting down physically. Sit on the floor. When outside, lie on the grass (and roll around and be silly). Humans on the floor or ground seem to be very interesting to dogs. I guess the two leg bit is boring?


I always recommend getting on the floor with a dog. It conveys the idea that you are willing to play on their level. I have two GSDs in the 100 pound range and a 12-pound terrier. The dogs have the most fun when the terrier pins the big ones to the ground. That's because the big ones are signalling to the little one that they want to play bad enough that they will be careful not to hurt her, and won't overpower her as they could do without even trying. They signal that they are actively trying to have fun with the little one.

Also, it provides a lot of full body contact, which is good for relationship building.

Not to mention that is fun to be on the bottom of a puppy pile.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wm97 said:


> Please tell that to my 100+ pound boy, and his 90 pound sister, who are both trying to sit in my lap as I type. I have had several. They were all the same. I had one that I had to tie up to take pictures of him because he wouldn't get far enough away for me to focus the camera.
> 
> 
> I agree that they are aloof with strangers. I disagree about their relationships with their families.


I never said that they don't want to be near you. If you reread my post, I clearly said that they want to be near me but not on me. They don't make pests of themselves.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never said that they don't want to be near you. If you reread my post, I clearly said that they want to be near me but not on me. They don't make pests of themselves.


Mine have all wanted to be in physical contact pretty much 24/7/365. Like the big one I pushed off of my lap who now has his head on my foot. That's after I pushed his head out of my lap. If I sit on the floor, or lay on my bed, they will both immediately come and get as much full body contact as they can manage. That's not to mention the fact that they are constantly walking between my legs. 

Maybe it has something to do with your use of the word "pests". I would call it "amusing" when 200 pounds of dog wants to sit in my lap. I view it as "affection" not "pests". Dogs pick up on things like that.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> None of my dogs are overly affectionate. They like to be near me but not on me. I think that is fairly typical of the breed.
> 
> What have you been doing to form a bond that you both enjoy?


This is my experience as well. The only time any of them really climb on me is in the morning. They'll come over periodically if I'm sitting for attention but always lay on the floor near me. All the shepherds I know, mine and my friends, are like this. Seems pretty typical.

I'm more concerned of the statement that the dog "won't let me" touch him. That is not typical. I hope the OP better explains is it that he "won't" be touched or he's not craving contact and attention like a Doberman would. Now THAT is a velcro breed.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> This is my experience as well. The only time any of them really climb on me is in the morning. They'll come over periodically if I'm sitting for attention but always lay on the floor near me. All the shepherds I know, mine and my friends, are like this. Seems pretty typical.
> 
> I'm more concerned of the statement that the dog "won't let me" touch him. That is not typical. I hope the OP better explains is it that he "won't" be touched or he's not craving contact and attention like a Doberman would. Now THAT is a velcro breed.


There have been several threads here where people posted pictures of their dogs laying on their feet while they played on the computer. It is a common joke, velcro on the foot, so to speak. 

I don't know where people get any dog that doesn't crave to be touched. They are the exception with almost any breed, in my experience. Most of them have some velcro in them. But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wm97 said:


> There have been several threads here where people posted pictures of their dogs laying on their feet while they played on the computer. It is a common joke, velcro on the foot, so to speak.
> 
> I don't know where people get any dog that doesn't crave to be touched. They are the exception with almost any breed, in my experience. Most of them have some velcro in them. But maybe that's just me.


Dude...I'm not engaging. This thread is not about you or your dogs. You aren't the only one on this board to own this breed and others can share their experiences without you hijacking the thread to continuously argue your experience and opinion.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When I want it, its affection. When I don't, its pestering. That's what obedience is for. Or sometimes the kennel cause I'm lazy.


----------



## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Dude...I'm not engaging. This thread is not about you or your dogs. You aren't the only one on this board to own this breed and others can share their experiences without you hijacking the thread to continuously argue your experience and opinion.


Back at ya. Here's a clue. If two groups of people report wildly different experiences with the same breed, it's probably the person.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> My pup is 17 was old now and I’ve had him for 4 weeks. *He’s very calm and follows me everywhere.* He will play with toys. He’s perfect in every way but he will not let me touch him. He was not socialized at all by the breeder.
> 
> Should I continue to wait for him to approach me? I understand he will lick me or put his head on my lap when he trusts me. How long could this take and should I do anything to accelerate this process? He needs a vet visit but he has not had a collar or leash on him to date.



Back on topic....

He was 12 weeks old when you got him? I originally read that as 17 months old? But he's 17 weeks?

What does "not socialized at the breeders" mean? What did the breeder not do that you think they should have done?

What do you mean he won't let you touch him? At all? He's not pushing you for attention? You say he follows you everywhere, which is engaging with you so he's not avoiding you. 

Is he struggling when you try to hold him? Perfectly normal reaction. They want DOWN. Is he trying to bite you when you try to touch him? Again, perfectly normal. How are you playing with him? 

After reading your post again, I'm not really sure what you are expecting from a puppy in terms of being touched and held.

And get that collar and leash on him. He needs to get used to that.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

wm97 said:


> Back at ya. Here's a clue. If two groups of people report wildly different experiences with the same breed, it's probably the person.



What you have described is more of the lab/golden behavior or personality. I despise a dog that is all over me. Needy, nagie, attention craving. Not for me! I like the aloofness of the breed. To me, velcro dog is more of where I go he goes...but never literally stuck to me. If a dog is that sticky, it is a bad thing for me. Don't forget, the breed was used for herding, they needed to be able to work on their own, not stuck to their masters butt. 

My boy Remi did not like to be held at all. Did not want to be fondled or smothered at all. He would be laying down, I would go lay next to him and he would move. This was as a tiny pup. Very "independent", maybe that's not the best way to describe him. They say not to let the dog go up and down steep stairs as a puppy. Well, at 3 months, he refused to be picked up and carried downstairs. He started to get really annoyed...so we stopped. Even now, he comes over, gets some attention and leaves. 

To the OP, if your dog really won't let you touch him, you need to build trust and engagement. Do force it, some dogs just aren't cuddly. You should be able to pet the dog, brush him, etc. If you are unable to do those basic things, you will need to follow the good advice that you are getting.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> This is my experience as well. The only time any of them really climb on me is in the morning. They'll come over periodically if I'm sitting for attention but always lay on the floor near me. All the shepherds I know, mine and my friends, are like this. Seems pretty typical.
> 
> I'm more concerned of the statement that the dog "won't let me" touch him. That is not typical. I hope the OP better explains is it that he "won't" be touched or he's not craving contact and attention like a Doberman would. Now THAT is a velcro breed.


I agree. Clarity would help. I have a female here that adores me. She loves when I pet her but don't try to hug her as she will buck like a wild bronco. She is not a "huggy" kind of gal. I wonder if that is more what the OP is talking about.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

wm97 said:


> Back at ya. Here's a clue. If two groups of people report wildly different experiences with the same breed, it's probably the person.


I've had what I would say are wildly different experiences with the 3 German Shepherds I've owned, but others may not view them as all that different. I think its mainly how the op chose to describe what they're asking about, so like Jax and Mawl mentioned, some context is important. Not to sidetrack this, but I thought you had mastiffs? Or did I mistake something you posted?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

eddie1976E said:


> ..... Very "independent",...., he refused to be picked up and carried downstairs. He started to get really annoyed...so we stopped. Even now, he comes over, gets some attention and leaves.
> ..


SO much depends on the breeding and genetics. Exactly my young girl. She had other things to do. Did not want to be restrained. As she's matured, I can flip her on her back and clip her nails while she lays there like a noodle until I tell her I'm done. At 12-17 weeks? She was busy chasing the cat and imaginary butterflies and unicorns and she has a high amount of suspicion due to her genetics. She had to mature and learn to trust. BUT she never avoided us touching her. She was just busy and would settle on the ottoman at night while we watched TV. Now at 10 months she comes out for attention but then will go lay in the other room or kitchen instead of with us. My male is usually on the floor in front of the ottaman. I wonder if working lines are more prone to this behavior than other lines and breeding? Just more independent.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Some Gsds can be almost cat like with affection or touch.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> SO much depends on the breeding and genetics. Exactly my young girl. She had other things to do. Did not want to be restrained. As she's matured, I can flip her on her back and clip her nails while she lays there like a noodle until I tell her I'm done. At 12-17 weeks? She was busy chasing the cat and imaginary butterflies and unicorns and she has a high amount of suspicion due to her genetics. She had to mature and learn to trust. BUT she never avoided us touching her. She was just busy and would settle on the ottoman at night while we watched TV. Now at 10 months she comes out for attention but then will go lay in the other room or kitchen instead of with us. My male is usually on the floor in front of the ottaman. I wonder if working lines are more prone to this behavior than other lines and breeding? Just more independent.


I think you are on to something...as with yours, mine and MAWL, they are all working line dogs. When I talked to the breeder before getting Remi, she said he was extremely suspicious and I would need to really work with him otherwise he may end up being something that I would not like. With respect to that, he is great. I wish he was a little more suspicious...we kinda trained that out somewhat...he is still vigilant and watchful on walks. But what I like (and it could be how we raised him) he doesn't crave attention from people. He sniffs, gets a little excited, then goes picks up a stick or ignores the person we are talking to.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> My pup is 17 was old now and I’ve had him for 4 weeks. He’s very calm and follows me everywhere. He will play with toys. He’s perfect in every way but he will not let me touch him. He was not socialized at all by the breeder.
> 
> Should I continue to wait for him to approach me? I understand he will lick me or put his head on my lap when he trusts me. How long could this take and should I do anything to accelerate this process? He needs a vet visit but he has not had a collar or leash on him to date.


Is it that he will not let you touch him or he just does not seek contact? 
Of all of my GSD's , my current little love is the only one that I would describe as cuddly. Only on her terms though, and it didn't get that way until she was about a year old. Until then she was a bit like a feral dog. I could hold her but given a choice she would move away, and she was a bottle baby and absolutely socialized. My guess is genetics, some dogs take suspicion to a whole new level. The others wanted to be near me but disliked being mauled or held. Sabi slept with her paw touching some part of me but if I tried to cuddle she would mostly get up and move. Bud mostly positioned himself to stare at me, cuddled only if he was scared and I let him hide his head under my arm. 
As far as the vet, if it needs to happen then just do it. Sometimes you need to go with the lesser of two evils and I am of the belief that we often over think things and make them into a big deal when they didn't need to be. I don't condition for collars, leashes, muzzles, etc. I just put them on and go. I tried collar conditioning once and it made it into a huge deal for the dog when it didn't need to be. I tried conditioning the muzzle with Shadow and same result. When I stopped playing about and just put it on her she fussed for a minute and then moved on.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

All 3 of mine are just like my children, attached to me like leaches. They follow me everywhere, and if I happen to sit down, they are vying with each other to be on my lap, on my feet, and the one that’s SOL will just huff and lay down on the floor as close as possible to me.

I’ve never had a problem with them not wanting to be touched or leashed, and they all got collars as soon as they walked in my house. I did have one pup who wasn’t fond of being leashed, but loved everything that came after. So I bought a round lead line, and left that on him until he stopped putting up a fuss. 

How are you approaching the puppy? 3 weeks is usually plenty of time for the pup to get used to you. Getting on the floor with him is great advice. I’d take it one step further and sit on the floor with your back to him and ignore him, let him approach you. They normally get curious enough to come check you out. Have some yummy treats with you, and anytime he touches you, offer a treat and a yes, or good boy, or whatever praise term you use. Soon he’ll be eagerly looking to to you because he knows you come with yummy treats. You can eventually phase out the treats. Look up NILF, this should help you as well.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I don’t see this thread as an affectionate issue -a puppy not wanting to be touched. This is a PUPPY. Have you taken your pup into the vet to see if the puppy is in any physical pain that he would shy away from his owners touch? Have you discussed this with your breeder as to any bad experience this puppy had in regards to any physical affection. I would get down on the floor as mentioned and make any physical touches pleasant try using a stuffed toy then turning into play. Every time you pet your puppy give your puppy extra special yummy treats - the treats stop when the pets stop making your sessions short and fun. As a puppy he should be desensitized more quickly then an adult. Pups also don’t like to keep still or anything that will slow them down - much like toddlers so also important to keep any physical affection short and sweet and at times when they are most tired or relaxed.

In my experience german shepherds when mature have a strong connection with their owners and family and that connection is reminded through out the day in varying different ways dependent upon the dog whether it be either or all- lying a in an adjacent room, a few feet away , right at feet or right next to their owner, head in lap etc- all though aware of their owners next move in very subtle ways. Their heavy coats do make them hot and may keep affection times limited also their personalities and comfort levels. Dogs including german shepherds that oblige, comfortable with and seek out their families affection are not nuisances(most of the time lol),codependent, nor do they share their love with strangers. 

My gsd Karat who I did not have as pup he liked his own space and not big on affection - I respected that and we had a strong bond- and connected in different ways. All of my gsds always subtle ways knew/know where I was in the house. Max and Luna at times look like a tag team as they take turns keeping track of my whereabouts. They also enjoy there own space and need that. They are very comfortable with physical touch and affection from myself and kids even when it’s invading as they were raised from pups this way. The dogs move away when they had enough. This morning I woke up and found at the bottom of the bed my feet entangled with cozy warm paws - there could be no better in my book.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> wm97 said:
> 
> 
> > Back at ya. Here's a clue. If two groups of people report wildly different experiences with the same breed, it's probably the person.
> ...


I’m not sure how someone can despise animals especially when it causes no harm to the individual. It tells a lot of about someone’s character and sure is not strength. A behavior of a particular breed, or type of animal may be not for you but to despise it is something else. It is a reminder though that not all people who do own dogs are not because they have a love for animals but to fill their own empty gaps.


----------



## bnormal (Mar 29, 2019)

My 6 Dobes were certainly all over me and I loved every minute of it...Igor is getting there...and he follows me everywhere and I love it...course, different strokes...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Unless I misunderstood, I totally disagree with the comment regarding nuisance dogs. I was born an animal lover and my entire lifestyle has always been, and still is, built all around them. 

Like another has posted, I strongly dislike a pesky dog. An overly affectionate dog or one that does not respect personal space can be extremely stressful to live with. Not needing a dog to constantly fawn on them is not a sign of character weakness but I would suspect just the opposite. IME, I think people who seek an overly affectionate dog are the ones trying to fill their own empty gaps vs a love of dogs or animals. What an offensive thing to insinuate!


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m an animal lover. As in, I love my own animals. I love to meet new animals, briefly. 

When I go to my sisters house, she has a lab and a Yorkie. I hate her dogs. Why? Because they are annoying, and not mine. They jump all over you, have zero manners, are constantly dropping slobbery balls in your laps, and barking to get your attention. Not my cup of tea. Also, I’ll put up with A LOT for my guys, slobber and fur and all. But not for someone else’s dogs. 

Does it make me a crap person? Maybe. But probably more just an honest person. 

People come to my house and ask how I stand all the fur, slobber, barks, rough housing, and having no less than 2 dogs following me wherever I go. Laying outside the bathroom door waiting for me to finish. Laying at my feet while I’m doing dishes. Trying to help clean up piles while I’m sweeping by running through it with zoomies. And my answer is always the same. Because they are mine. 

The sheep I can do without, they are just serving a purpose. They crop my fields so I don’t have to jump on the tractor every weekend. I love the eggs my chickens give me, but don’t love my chickens. I don’t name them. I don’t play with them. I feed and water them, and clean up after them, same with the sheep. I have 2 horses. Love one, go through the motions with the other one. We just never bonded. But I still do everything with that horse that I do with the horse that holds my heart. 

You don’t have to be an “every animal lover” to love your dogs.


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

OP, Cafall was the same way initially He'd play and engage but didn't like to be pet and his version of cuddling was curled up alone on the other side of the room. As he grew and we had more interaction (hikes, classes, training, play dates, etc.) he slowly started coming around. He still isn't big on being pet. Just isn't his thing. However, now I can't lay in bed without him flopping a third of his weight onto me. 

Your pup is young. Give it time. Work on building the bond and I'm sure you'll both gain a better understanding of each other and with that comes trust and a desire for closeness.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Unless I misunderstood, I totally disagree with the comment regarding nuisance dogs. I was born an animal lover and my entire lifestyle has always been, and still is, built all around them.
> 
> Like another has posted, I strongly dislike a pesky dog. An overly affectionate dog or one that does not respect personal space can be extremely stressful to live with. Not needing a dog to constantly fawn on them is not a sign of character weakness but I would suspect just the opposite. IME, I think people who seek an overly affectionate dog are the ones trying to fill their own empty gaps vs a love of dogs or animals. What an offensive thing to insinuate!


My comment was not directed at you. My comment was not regarding likes and dislikes- we all have likes and dislikes. I did not insinuate anything. I was pretty clear. No one should go around despising animals for the only reason they are not one’s cup of tea. It’s not a strong character trait - it just is not. Despise is quiet a strong word and will get a response.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How did we get from a puppy that isn’t affectionate to being a bad person if we don’t like all dogs, even nuisance dogs? We all have different ideas of acceptable behaviors and those we can’t tolerate. I hated when relatives’ dogs would try to climb up my legs with sharp little toenails and ruin my clothing while they did it. The owners would say, just pick them up and they will stop jumping on you. Why would I want to pick up an overly excited out of control dog when I was dressed up? I can’t stand dogs that are out of control. Now, my working line is unusually friendly and loves guests as long as it’s Ok with me. He barks and does the watch dog thing until I give permission to stop or tell him thank you. Then he wants to socialize. My trainer said to cut that behavior back so he’s not so intrusive and we have. Why shouldn’t I expect other dog owners to be as respectful of me as I am of them? I intentionally don’t own lap dogs for a reason. People have told me my dogs scare them or asked me to keep my dogs away and I do. So, why should I be subjected to bad behaviors from their dogs? This is not about loving dogs. It’s about raising dogs to be good citizens out in the world in in people’s homes. Why else would AKC have the CGC awards program in place?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> How did we get from a puppy that isn’t affectionate to being a bad person if we don’t like all dogs, even nuisance dogs? We all have different ideas of acceptable behaviors and those we can’t tolerate. I hated when relatives’ dogs would try to climb up my legs with sharp little toenails and ruin my clothing while they did it. The owners would say, just pick them up and they will stop jumping on you. Why would I want to pick up an overly excited out of control dog when I was dressed up? I can’t stand dogs that are out of control. Now, my working line is unusually friendly and loves guests as long as it’s Ok with me. He barks and does the watch dog thing until I give permission to stop or tell him thank you. Then he wants to socialize. My trainer said to cut that behavior back so he’s not so intrusive and we have. Why shouldn’t I expect other dog owners to be as respectful of me as I am of them? I intentionally don’t own lap dogs for a reason. People have told me my dogs scare them or asked me to keep my dogs away and I do. So, why should I be subjected to bad behaviors from their dogs? This is not about loving dogs. It’s about raising dogs to be good citizens out in the world in in people’s homes. Why else would AKC have the CGC awards program in place?



What are you talking about?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> What are you talking about?


Not being able to dislike dogs we don’t like. When a dog misbehaves, I don’t like it very much. I’ve personally had it with small loose dogs charging my big dogs and owners getting angry with me or laughing while refusing to control their dogs. So, no, I’m not a fan of most small breeds, except for herding breeds. What did I miss?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > What are you talking about?
> ...


You may interpret my comment however you like. To me there is a big difference between not liking something and despising or loathing something. What am I missing?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think some people triggered at the word despise while others triggered at the character assassination for not liking in your face or nuisance kind of dogs.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Not being able to dislike dogs we don’t like. When a dog misbehaves, I don’t like it very much. I’ve personally had it with small loose dogs charging my big dogs and owners getting angry with me or laughing while refusing to control their dogs. So, no, I’m not a fan of most small breeds, except for herding breeds. What did I miss?


I have read many threads on this forum regarding people complaining about off leash dogs. When you cut to the chase, it often comes down to people not giving a hoot about a dog being off leash but about the dog not having the manners to stay out of another's personal space coupled with owners who don't care to do something about their dog's intrusion. Just a wild speculation based on observations, maybe most GSD kind of people appreciate a dog that is less needy / clingy with a sense of independence with the ability to self entertain at our feet, in the next room, or in the backyard. Then again, maybe it is just me and what I like about German Shepherds.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

ADMIN comment, responding to the reports on this thread - 

Guys, it’s a holiday weekend - please be decent.

We should be able to talk about different types of dogs without getting nasty toward someone who prefers what you yourself don’t.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> You may interpret my comment however you like. To me there is a big difference between not liking something and despising or loathing something. What am I missing?


What you are missing is the time stamp. Our two posts were sent within a few minutes of each other. I was writing my reply when you posted, then it looked like I was replying to you when I was answering the general comments above and hadn’t even seen your post. Let’s back up and go to the original post about affection. I have been offline with guests and haven’t been keeping up. 

To everyone: I think affection in our breed can be confusing. My first GSD as an adult was a family dog who adored children. She adored my spouse. I was busy, working, raising kids, taking care of the house and didn’t have as much time for her as everyone else did. So, she was pleasant to me but adored them. I could have assumed she didn’t like me as much or was not as affectionate, but in the end it didn’t matter. The funny part was because my interactions with her were limited, I mostly walked her and trained her. I worked part of time from home, so we were together even when I was ignoring her. So, she ended up being more aloof with me but also much better behaved. 

My WL is very affectionate but it took the first two years of rewarding behaviors I wanted before it became automatic. He didn't like restraint so he pulled away from hugs. Now he doesn’t. This is a very responsive breed to consistent training and handling. Behaviors can be taught, especially in puppies.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have read many threads on this forum regarding people complaining about off leash dogs. When you cut to the chase, it often comes down to people not giving a hoot about a dog being off leash but about the dog not having the manners to stay out of another's personal space coupled with owners who don't care to do something about their dog's intrusion. Just a wild speculation based on observations, maybe most GSD kind of people appreciate a dog that is less needy / clingy with a sense of independence with the ability to self entertain at our feet, in the next room, or in the backyard. Then again, maybe it is just me and what I like about German Shepherds.


Maybe I like dogs and not the owners. Maybe off leash doesn’t bother me as much as bad behavior. I will think about that more before making up my mind.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> I’m not sure how someone can despise animals especially when it causes no harm to the individual. It tells a lot of about someone’s character and sure is not strength. A behavior of a particular breed, or type of animal may be not for you but to despise it is something else. It is a reminder though that not all people who do own dogs are not because they have a love for animals but to fill their own empty gaps.


Clearly I touched a never. That was not the intent. The responses you have received from others on your personal attacks should put things in perspective for you. Not every comment you disagree with requires a response, specially a personal attack. If I did that, I would be on these forums 24/7. I stand by what I said, despise, hate, dislike, pick the word. A dog that is overly affectionate, demanding constant attention, in your face, etc. is just as bad as a dog that wants nothing to do with their owner at all or one that exhibits other behaviors that are inconsistent with what dog owners have come to expect from "Man's Best Friend". 

Contrary to the way you framed it, it is not about a love for animals (I don't have an unconditional love for all animals...I don't have to), it is about having high expectations of pets. I expect my dog to behave at all times, especially in public. I expect him not no sniff peoples crotch as they walk by. I expect him not to lift his leg on someone I'm speaking with (I have had that happen to me...the owner brushed it off as the dog loves me). I expect my dog to leave my guests alone. Greet, and move on. 

Let's not taint this thread anymore than it has been. If you feel the need to discuss this further, PM me.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Yeah, sorry, no. I’m not going to change my opinion because one person may think I’m a horrible person for the way I feel regarding anything. 

I cannot stand little dogs. Yes, I would go so far as to say I despise little breed dogs. Why? Because I’ve yet to meet one that isn’t a yippy, yappy, in your face kind of dog. The ones that nip at, or straight up bite others that are not their owners. Little dogs seem to get this free pass for awful behavior because “ah, look how cute, they are just protecting me.” Also, they are prone to yapping constantly, in a high pitches sound that drills nails through my head. 

I hate dogs that aren’t well behaved. At my sisters, i hear her giving her dogs command after command, and neither of them listening to her. It’s made it to where I avoid her house. 

100% without a doubt, any of my family members hate coming to my house because of my dogs. The breed scares them. They are not poorly behaved around them, and they listen to me with no issue. If I tell them to go lay down, they go lay down. I don’t let them maul my guests with affection. Because that’s what it feels like to me at my sisters house. Like her dogs are mauling me with affection. But her dogs are fine to the rest of the family, because they are “friendly” breeds. 

Yep, not my cup of tea. And I’m not ashamed of it. I just don’t purchase or seek out attention from small breeds, and have no sympathy for owners who turn their dogs into yippy, yappy, jumpy, in your face annoying animals.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@eddie1976E I need no one to put things in perspective for me. I don’t believe any of these dogs discussed here are “bad”. I also only choose my own words. In regards to dogs and dogs that are obnoxiously misbehaved off leash- it’s always the owners that are fully responsible for their dogs actions not the dog. There are people though that rather blame an animal then the owner maybe it’s easier for them. 

op - i do apologize for derailing this thread.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am not much of a fan of small dog owners, votes still out on the small dogs themselves. I don't see much use for them and they are generally annoying. 
To the OP: As you can see the general consensus is that we picked this breed FOR the somewhat stand offish behavior. Individual dogs may be more outgoing but overall the breed has sort of a look but don't touch trait.
Personally as hot as it is I wish this mess of mine was a bit less cuddly. I feel like I have a 50lb blanket on me.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

After reading most of this thread.....thought I'd add my 2 cents......I can think of so many more characteristics and attributes which are so much more important than this one being discussed.


I've had it both ways with the 3 GSDs over my life......my current one is more at "arm's-length" by design from the get go.......the exceptions would be when she gets a good rib slapping for doing well or a few other events where physical contact is part of the overall process.....other than that....she can find her own comfort zone......never forced by me.




SuperG


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My GSDs have mostly been stand-offish. The only time I used to get one lying on my feet was when they were frightened by fireworks, and wanted the comfort of being close to me. My current two dogs are gun sure, and could care less about loud noises.

Eska tries to become a lap dog when we go to the vet, though. Shows who she's really bonded to, even if she doesn't do it at home.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's the labradoodles that undo me. 

It's important that a pup is able to be handled- especially if just putting on a collar or leash is an issue. But certainly some GSD are more cuddly and some are not. They may be herding dogs but they are not livestock guardians- they look to their owners for guidance and seek them out as work partners. And selective breeding has certainly made those characteristics stronger in many modern GSD most of whom will never see a sheep in their lives.


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

When Ryka was a pup, she’d dodge my hand and avoid head pats. She always wanted to be physically close, but I’d never describe her as very “pettable”. She didn’t want to be physically coddled outside of her own terms. It actually used to upset me a lot, but I came to terms with it. 

As she matured, however, that changed. She now likes to sit beside me as I scratch her head or stroke her neck fur. She’s currently asleep stealing my leg room as I lay diagonally on our queen sized bed, lol. She loves it when I gently rub her ears or pet her from head to back. But that didn’t come until well after the land shark phase and until she was more mature and had garnered an appreciation for physical affection in the form of petting. 

I will add, though, that she only seeks physical affection from me. She doesn’t care to be pet, cuddled, or snuggled by anyone else. She genuinely hugs me when I come home... everyone else she walks up to, wags her butt happily, then walks away. 

Some dogs love it right away, some grow to love it, some never do. Unless the dog is aggressively defending itself from you when you initiate harmless physical attention (in other words, just petting his neck or body gently), I think it’s just your dog putting up boundaries and not understanding that pets can be rewarding. 

Here’s a picture of the aformentioned leg room stealing beast. My legs are cramped, but she’s just so darn cute...


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Hello everyone! I started this thread and as I’m new to the forum I was so happy to check back and read all the responses. Let me give more background into my pups early life. The primary breeder was a woman who was killed in a wreck. That left her husband who had a broken leg and was overwhelmed. The momma dogs were allowed to have their litter in a remote barn. Other than being fed the dogs had zero human contact. They were however threatened by mountain lions who evidently got one or two pups. So, his life was pretty scary. Then at 14 weeks of age I bought him. We had to catch him and he tried to be invisible until he was finally released in my home. Since then I’ve added a backyard fence so he has access to the outside. He’s smart and happy. He will play tug and fetch. He will eat off my chest. Occasionally I’ll slip in a touch and he will shy away from it but is much less afraid than a month ago. I think that just being patient and working on trust is what I will continue for now. I think only negative things could come for me forcing him to wear a collar or leash right now. He does need to see the vet for shots though so I wish he would let me take him but I think I would lose a lot of trust to force that now. I’ve only had him 5 weeks.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Those are some pretty rough circumstances for all involved. Were you able to meet the sire and dam? What were thier temperaments like?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Hello everyone! I started this thread and as I’m new to the forum I was so happy to check back and read all the responses. Let me give more background into my pups early life. The primary breeder was a woman who was killed in a wreck. That left her husband who had a broken leg and was overwhelmed. The momma dogs were allowed to have their litter in a remote barn. Other than being fed the dogs had zero human contact. They were however threatened by mountain lions who evidently got one or two pups. So, his life was pretty scary. Then at 14 weeks of age I bought him. We had to catch him and he tried to be invisible until he was finally released in my home. Since then I’ve added a backyard fence so he has access to the outside. He’s smart and happy. He will play tug and fetch. He will eat off my chest. Occasionally I’ll slip in a touch and he will shy away from it but is much less afraid than a month ago. I think that just being patient and working on trust is what I will continue for now. I think only negative things could come for me forcing him to wear a collar or leash right now. He does need to see the vet for shots though so I wish he would let me take him but I think I would lose a lot of trust to force that now. I’ve only had him 5 weeks.


The background helps, but genetics will play into it as well. Just as much, maybe more. 
I have taken several young, completely feral dogs on and most turned out just amazing. 
As far as the vet goes, you need to determine what the risks are on both sides and weigh it out. Keep in mind that health issues can often be minimalized if caught early. While I don't personally like pushing pups there are some things that make it necessary. 
I used to have a vet that was amazing with fearful or shy dogs so they are out there. Parasites, viral infections, etc. should all be thought of. He is still young enough to be at risk for things like Parvo, which could kill him. 
Consider also that sometimes you need to shove them out of their comfort zone to keep making progress. He has had over a month, vet care is important.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

So you essentially purchased a feral pup. It’s not surprising that he’s touch shy. Time to build up trust is important, but so is vet care. 

Does he have a crate he sleeps in? If so, take the crate with the pup in it to the vets. Let them know the history, they are well versed in handling different doggie issues. It’s important to get him vetted, especially if you’re in an area with high cases of parvo or distemper.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Pictures today


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

No, he is free inside my home. He does not sleep in a crate. He has his first shots and I was able to worm him. I agree vet care is important but there are no other dogs around so it’s just me and him alone.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> No, he is free inside my home. He does not sleep in a crate. He has his first shots and I was able to worm him. I agree vet care is important but there are no other dogs around so it’s just me and him alone.


Parvo stays active in any yard for up to a year. So even is a stray decided to use your yard 6 months ago, your pup is still at risk. Deworming done OTC is pretty useless. So unless you were able to somehow purchase a dewormer somewhere other than a Walmart or pet store, it’s likely doing nothing to kill any internal parasites. There are also many different types of worms that can be present, and not every dewormer will work on every parasite. That’s why the vet will ask for a stool sample, so that all internal parasites have been dewormer for. 

If the pup isn’t crated, how do you prevent accidents inside. Where does the pup go when you leave the house? Do you live alone, or with family or a partner or roommate?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

But shoving him out of his comfort zone to make progress seems contrary to almost all the advice I’ve received. At 18 weeks now he’s strong as a bull! Shoving him out of his comfort zone could only mean trapping him and getting a collar and leash on him. That could be very difficult and I sure think it would set back the progress I’ve made.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> But shoving him out of his comfort zone to make progress seems contrary to almost all the advice I’ve received. At 18 weeks now he’s strong as a bull! Shoving him out of his comfort zone could only mean trapping him and getting a collar and leash on him. That could be very difficult and I sure think it would set back the progress I’ve made.


You do not need a collar or leash to take him to the vet. Most vets will not allow a dog that is not fully vaccinated to touch the floor, so either you, or a trained tech will be holding the pup. Or you could use a slip lead in place of a collar and leash. Create the circle, offer treats until his head is in the circle, and then tighten the lead so he can’t back out of it. 

I’d rather take the chance that it will push back the trust for a week or two, than lose my pup for something that could be easily treatable, or vaccinated against, at the vet.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I live alone and unfortunately I knew I was creating a problem as the pup must potty inside. The fence is built now but he pottied inside for a month. My floor is stained slab so cleanup is just my everyday routine now.

I bought chewable deworming pills from Tractor Supply. I don’t think he has worms. 

I think I can start him on Heart Worm pills without him seeing the vet. 

Really, I want to get him to the vet ASAP also. I just believe giving him another month may be worth it.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Ha! This dog sure isn’t dumb enough to put his head through a noose.!That just won’t happen. I’d have to rope him and then after the rodeo I may have a leash on him.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> Hello everyone! I started this thread and as I’m new to the forum I was so happy to check back and read all the responses. Let me give more background into my pups early life. The primary breeder was a woman who was killed in a wreck. That left her husband who had a broken leg and was overwhelmed. The momma dogs were allowed to have their litter in a remote barn. Other than being fed the dogs had zero human contact. They were however threatened by mountain lions who evidently got one or two pups. So, his life was pretty scary. Then at 14 weeks of age I bought him. We had to catch him and he tried to be invisible until he was finally released in my home. Since then I’ve added a backyard fence so he has access to the outside. He’s smart and happy. He will play tug and fetch. He will eat off my chest. Occasionally I’ll slip in a touch and he will shy away from it but is much less afraid than a month ago. I think that just being patient and working on trust is what I will continue for now. I think only negative things could come for me forcing him to wear a collar or leash right now. He does need to see the vet for shots though so I wish he would let me take him but I think I would lose a lot of trust to force that now. I’ve only had him 5 weeks.


Oh wow. So his entire imprinting as a puppy has been living in fear and not knowing humans. I think you just keep doing what you're doing. Sounds like he's fine when he approaches you but is leery when you touch him. So just keep desensitizing him to that touch and use food to do it.

All puppies fight the collar. So first, just put the collar on him. He'll adjust. Then add the leash. Just put it on and let him drag it until he's used to it. Then you can start walking with it. Expect him to fight it. They all do. It's normal. Just stand there quietly until it's over and then treat him. Just make sure he has on something like a Comfort Flex collar that won't dig into him and he can't slip out of.

As far as the vet - distemper and parvo are in the environment. It's not just about other dogs. You need to get him vaccinated. Put him in a crate in the car. When it's your turn, take him from the crate directly to the room. That saves on the leash fight but he's already 2 vaccines behind. You can even get the vaccines from most farm stores. Just make sure you keep them at the temp they are supposed to be at or they will be useless.

I only have experience with feral barn kittens. I would put a bowl of food down and sit on the floor. When they were eating, I would start to touch them. As they became accustomed to my touching them, I would pet them for longer periods. Also, when he's playing tug and is in drive, reach down and pet him. They will accept much more contact when they are in drive and their brains are in a different mode. Try those things with him. It doesn't sound like he's avoiding you if he will eat on your chest then he is ON you. He's just unsure of when you touch him.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gowacky said:


> But shoving him out of his comfort zone to make progress seems contrary to almost all the advice I’ve received. At 18 weeks now he’s strong as a bull! Shoving him out of his comfort zone could only mean trapping him and getting a collar and leash on him. That could be very difficult and I sure think it would set back the progress I’ve made.


There are some things you have to just do, and let them get over it. Prolonging it isn't the answer. I'd put a collar and a drag line on and then just leave him loose with it for a while. Keep an eye on him so he doesn't chew the line. Also, heart worm is prescription only. They draw blood before they'll start him on it.

Edit: Jax gave a good explanation and plan. Basically with the leash and collar you'll have opportunities that will be a lot more effective then the idea of having to "trap" him.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

It’s the whole idea of how much damage to our trust and how long would the negative effects of getting trapped last? Since I’ve only had 5 weeks to win him over don’t you believe I should be patient for another month or so before forcing him?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> But shoving him out of his comfort zone to make progress seems contrary to almost all the advice I’ve received. At 18 weeks now he’s strong as a bull! Shoving him out of his comfort zone could only mean trapping him and getting a collar and leash on him. That could be very difficult and I sure think it would set back the progress I’ve made.


That's ok. They never learn to deal with stress if you don't let them have stress. If you leave him in his comfort zone then you are never going to get anywhere with him. Push him a little and show him that it's ok. 

I would start with the food bowl thing and touching him when he's playing tug first before you tried to lasso him. And make sure you touch him all over. Start slow with your hand close to him. Then start moving it over him. Then start touching him. I bet you can touch him without him shying away within a week.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I heard from his sister’s owners, They put a long leash on her and would slowly work up the leash and pet her. They said she got used to that. 

It just seems that you have one chance to do it slowly. I’ll resort to forcing him but I’m going to try patience first.

I’ve read so much that I should wait for him to show he trusts me.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the advice you got was terrible. I would have been holding and feeding him constantly as a 12 week old when I could still physically handle him.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> I heard from his sister’s owners, They put a long leash on her and would slowly work up the leash and pet her. They said she got used to that.
> 
> It just seems that you have one chance to do it slowly. I’ll resort to forcing him but I’m going to try patience first.
> 
> I’ve read so much that I should wait for him to show he trusts me.


Do this when he is in drive playing with the ball and he will be far more tolerant. You may just have some genetically shy dogs on top of the imprinting.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I can literally hold his food in my hands and he will eat. He follows me everywhere. He plays tug. He just doesn’t want me to touch him.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I understand all of that. I'm saying to use that drive he has for food and tug to teach him that you touching him is ok. Tug tug tug, you touch him, be excited and tell him yes good boy and tug more. You touching him GETS more of what he wants.

I firmly believe that if you do not do this and show him it's ok that this behavior will never change. He IS interacting with you so he's not shying from you. He just doesn't understand that you touching him is a good thing.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Last thing, then I’ll leave you to your decision to wait another month before vetting.

Internal parasites are unlikely to be seen. Roundworms are really the only ones that can be seen, and that’s when they’ve reached maturity, and they look like spaghetti noodles. I’ve had a foster pup that the shelter said was wormed, and didn’t need it for another 2 weeks. 2 days later, I woke to a bloody crate and a panicked puppy. His worm load was so heavy, he ended up with a anal prolapse. His intestines were literally hanging about 8 inches out of his rear. To the emergency vet 1 1/2 hours away. They reinserted the intestines, and showed up how to do the same. When the regular vet opened, we called to schedule surgery. Every time he pooped, he pooped out intestines, and we would have to reinsert until he went into surgery. 

Not saying that’s going to happen to your pup, but no one but a vet with proper equipment can see the internal parasites, they are invisible to the naked eye.

Going potty inside the house?!?! For a month?!? I don’t envy you trying to retrain the pup that potty inside is off limits. Some of those parasites I was talking about? Those can infect a human via pet transference. You’re increasing your risk, as well as the pup, by letting him potty inside. 

I’m sorry, but it seems like you are putting your fears onto your puppy, and not taking actual responsibility for him. You need to get over the “what if’s” and vet your dog.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’ve just received a suggestion that sounds smart to me. That’s to ask my vet for a tranquilizer. Then when the dog is droggy I’ll put on the collar and leash. Then we’ll see the vet. After that I believe I’ll leave the leash attached. I’ll begin working slowly down the long leash and get him used to my touch.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I might add that I’ve watched the germansheperdman.com on YouTube a lot. He said you can’t do anything with a dog until you earn their trust. He said take a month or two months but do this first. I’ve only had this pup 5 weeks. 

But, he needs to see the vet and I’m comfortable using the tranquilizer idea.


----------



## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

My pup didn’t trust me and yet I took her to the vet on day one regardless. And she did indeed have worms. I’d prefer a healthy dog mad at me than a sick one


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> I’ve just received a suggestion that sounds smart to me. That’s to ask my vet for a tranquilizer. Then when the dog is droggy I’ll put on the collar and leash. Then we’ll see the vet. After that I believe I’ll leave the leash attached. I’ll begin working slowly down the long leash and get him used to my touch.


I tried. I tried really hard to bite my tongue and not say a word, especially since you aren’t taking anyone’s advice. 

Tranquilizers on a PUPPY?!?! Just for a simple vet visit? This pup is going to grow into a full size GSD, and I have a feeling he’s going to run roughshod all over you, and is going to be massive problem to handle as an adult.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Since you said he is too smart to put his head in a rope, he may just be using his smarts to get what he wants and avoid what he doesn’t. You may have already gained his trust and maybe he’s just taking you for a ride. I’m looking at those adorable pics and I don’t see any fear in his eyes. I do see intelligence though. I’m saying this in a light hearted manor and smiling at those pics. He’s handsome. I’m not questioning what you say about him, that he doesn’t like being touched But I really do see the intelligence in his eyes and perhaps a smidgeon of a hooligan gleam.

Sometimes we humans place preconceived ideas onto our GSDs based on our experiences with them and then realize that what we thought no longer applies. I would at least try once the suggestion of touching while he’s tugging or attempt to give a quick chest rub while he takes food off of your chest. Seems he’s very comfortable invading your body space, maybe it’s time to become equally comfortable invading his for a second or two. Let him run away, I would not even acknowledge that I tried to touch him or that he ran. I’d just lay there with more food and wait until I got bored or he came back for more food. If he does, don’t touch. Let him eat then end the “game”.


It’s just a thought.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> I might add that I’ve watched the germansheperdman.com on YouTube a lot. He said you can’t do anything with a dog until you earn their trust. He said take a month or two months but do this first. I’ve only had this pup 5 weeks.
> 
> But, he needs to see the vet and I’m comfortable using the tranquilizer idea.


Not sure that is a good source of info. 
I have pulled a lot of dogs of all ages out of some pretty horrifying situations. I can promise you that at no point did those dogs stay in my house without proper vet care. I would never have put myself, my kids or my own dogs in that jeopardy. And they all came around just fine. 
They got vetted, bathed and dewormed. In some cases we sedated, but generally it was just business as usual. 
I have had to muzzle, wrestle, pin, lift of the ground but vet care is non negotiable.
I keep saying this, I'm going to engrave it in a stone tablet soon, the bigger a deal you make out of things the bigger a deal your dog will think it is.
As far as using the bathroom? Not in my house, for any reason other then immobility. Ever. I have carried dogs, sometimes on a blanket or in a sling, dragged them, helped them walk. No pottying in the house.

I like that you want to help this dog. I love that you want to do your best by him. I believe you are a good person with good intentions. He trusts you. He is eating food you offer and playing tug. He does not want you to touch him. Tough. Life is rough and he needs to suck it up. So do you.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

You may want to ask the vet what tranquilizer they are going to use and then look up the side effects. Yes most are safe but best to know before hand all the pros and the cons.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I think this pup is awesome and I simply don’t want to be the cause for his failure. So, I’ve seen the passion from other owners and I will try to use the best advice. When I bought the dog I had no choice but to keep him inside. However, now I have built a backyard fence and that error can be reversed. I’ll miss him though as having his company is why I bought him. But, everyone is right... allowing him to potty in the house has to stop so that means he has my patio and backyard but he can not be allowed inside until he’s older and I can watch for the inside pottying.

Then there was the disgust in my idea of a tranquilizer. Maybe once again you’re right. But he weighs close to 50 lbs and he’s really strong. If I get a slip noose over his head I’ll have to hold him to attach the leash and collar. 

I’m not certain of how to proceed but I can make an attempt and see how it goes.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

HeartanndSoul, you sure said what I have felt in that he already trusts me, he also uses me to provide treats but once he sees I’m out he’s through. I do think he is just getting what he wants and avoids what he doesn’t want.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

The slip lead works as both leash and collar. You just cannot allow slack in the line or he can pull out of it. And trust me, most dogs will willingly put their head through a noose for a high value treat. 

Get a crate as well. There is no reason he either has to be outside 24/7, or inside 24/7 to potty train him. Utilize the crate when he’s already done his business, but you can’t keep an eye on him for any reason. 

I’ve also had very aggressive dogs in my house, very fearful dogs in my house, and older dogs than your pup who have never had human interaction except for feeding (my current GSD being one of them). No matter their issue, they got collared and leashed as soon as they hit my threshold. And they were all leashed to me, or crated when I had to leave the house. None of them ever broke because of it. You’re the adult, act like it and your pup will stop his BS. Slip lead, collar and leash, crate, or picking him up has got to happen so he can be vetted. Dogs are smarter than you think they are, and he’s learned in the last 5 weeks that he makes the rules. Time for you to start making them for the good of the pup.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

YeeeHaaaaw! I gathered my nerve and in just a bit he was wearing two collars and leashes. He just retreated as far as he could then just froze while I put the collars on him. 

He doesn’t seem to hate me ... lol, but I didn’t want to make a big mistake


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Well, I can usually tell what he’s thinking but now he has returned to his favorite corner but he is not comfortable. His ears are not up, they’re back. He shows no anger. He just doesn’t look happy. 

My patio is shaded with ceiling fans. I’m thinking he should be outside as cleaning up from him will now be impossible with him dragging two leashes through the potty.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Ugh


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

There’s no reason why he has to stay outside. It isn’t an either/or. I think you are overthinking this whole thing. Get a really long drag line, so you can reel him in without getting close to him. There’s no chasing. 

I've had to do something similar with a puppy mill rescue. A different breed, but he was essential feral. He was 2 years old. I took him to the vet, whether he liked it or not, and I housebroke him. Yes, he was afraid, and it wasn’t easy, but he had to learn to be a part of my family. Turned out to be a really great dog, and one of my all time favorites. 

Your puppy isn’t going to break. The longer you baby him, the harder it’s going to be when he gets big, and is used to doing whatever he wants. You don’t have to go at him like gangbusters, but I guarantee he’s a smart cookie, and will come around.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Well, I can usually tell what he’s thinking but now he has returned to his favorite corner but he is not comfortable. His ears are not up, they’re back. He shows no anger. He just doesn’t look happy.
> 
> My patio is shaded with ceiling fans. I’m thinking he should be outside as cleaning up from him will now be impossible with him dragging two leashes through the potty.


He's fine. He's being a brat and showing his disapproval of you actually taking control. 

He does not need two collars and leashes on him, one is sufficient. 

If you want to start the house training put the leash around your waist or fasten it to you so he has no choice but to stay near you and take him out every couple of hours. Reward with treats or praise when he relieves himself where he should.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Tethering is great advice.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ohhhh...I like the tethering idea too. 

Don't worry. He'll come out of his corner. If he'll chase food then throw some food back and forth to get him moving.

Why did you put two collars and two leashes on him?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I put two collars and leashes on him just for security. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t get them off anyway. He’s been pouting since I put them on. I plan to walk him in the morning and I think he could slip out of the flat collar so I want a backup.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What kind of collars did you put on? Please don't leave him overnight in a collar that will tighten if caught on something. Or leave the leashes on him overnight. I'm not really understanding what you mean by your post.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

You’re right. I don’t think he will break. We had a thunderstorm and he is inside but he’s sullen and not moving. He is not interested in treats. I’m just leaving him alone and see if he doesn’t accept the leash better with time


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I have him in a flat common type collar and a choke chain . I intend to leave the leashes on for not only overnight but for several days. I want to be able to reel him in and I want to avoid having to catch him again


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

In the morning I plan to put a longer leash on him and let him go for a walk. Not a training session but just to let him smell and hopefully relax a little.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You can not leave him unattended in a choke chain and don't leave the leashes on overnight or unattended. What if he chews the leashes and ends up with an obstruction? What if the choke collar gets caught on something and he hangs himself? Just leave the flat collar on him tonight.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think we need to find out what level of experience the OP has with dogs, puppies, and GSDs in particular. If this is their first dog or puppy, it would be helpful then to start from the very beginning.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> I put two collars and leashes on him just for security. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t get them off anyway. He’s been pouting since I put them on. I plan to walk him in the morning and I think he could slip out of the flat collar so I want a backup.


No Walking of unvaccinated dogs! 

I would seriously go with the tethering, but you cannot leave him unattended with a choke chain on. Play tug and give him treats, he'll get over it.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

dogfaeries said:


> I think we need to find out what level of experience the OP has with dogs, puppies, and GSDs in particular. If this is their first dog or puppy, it would be helpful then to start from the very beginning.


I’m going with first time pet owner. Not many seasoned owners would allow them to pee and poo inside the house for a month, and not collar or leash them.

OP, my fear is for your pup. GSD’s are not good learning breeds, and with the way you are handling him (and not handling him) he will likely get worse the older he gets. You’re going to have a large, and very powerful dog, if you can’t handle him as a pup, you’ll be even worse off when he’s an adult. Either get a trainer ASAP, or find a home for him that is familiar with the breed. 

Puppy classes wouldn’t be that great for what you are dealing with. You need a one on one trainer. 

Basic rules of thumb for any breed:
Don’t allow them to use the inside of your house as their bathroom.

Don’t allow them free reign of the house at such an early age, there is too much they can get into when they are alone, and some of those items are likely harmful. They should be crated or contained in an xpen. 

Don’t take him in public aside from vet visits until the pup is fully vaccinated. 

If you miss one of the puppy vaccines, they are likely going to start all over with the vaccines. They are supposed to be given in time intervals.

There are a ton of games you can play with the pup inside your home (hide and seek, soccer, hiding treats and having the pup find them, etc). 

They need to be taught what is okay, and what isn’t. No, you can’t chew on that, yes you can chew on this. 

Please don’t leave that poor pup leashed over night, it’s unnecessary and could get caught on any number of items inside your home, and eventually get so tangled up, he can choke himself out. Same goes with the choke chain. First, it’s not necessary if the pup is trained properly, and second, pups have choked themselves to death with choke chains inside kennel, I imagine it’s worse with free reign of the house.

You should probably hit a book store and get a puppies for dummy’s book. Or I’m sure other members here have better suggestions on puppy behavior and training books available. 

Search NILF either on the forum, or in a google search. It’s invaluable for anyone with a dog, whether it’s a pup or an older dog giving you problems.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm a fan of tethering as well......besides the arbitrary moving as one per my discretion....the times of settling as one provided great benefit for the team as well. I employed a great amount of indifference during the tethering days....no commands...no verbal cues....no corrections ....just lived a bit of my life with my dog attached to my belt loop with a lead......it did create an understanding which has been beneficial over the long haul.




SuperG


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jchrest said:


> GSD’s are not good learning breeds, .





Huh?




SuperG


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think she means a breed to learn on.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Yes, I meant not a good breed for first time dog owners to learn on. The breed itself is crazy stupid smart, I wouldn’t ever doubt the things GSD’s are capable of doing!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m 74 and live alone with my dog. I’ve remained with this pup full time since I got him. I’m not a first time GSD owner. There has been a great deal of well meaning discussion on my pup and a lot of condescending bull****. However, even the rude and ignorant remarks were well intentioned. I know you don’t know me but love the breed. 

After a couple of hours Tuff has relaxed and began taking treats again with his head and ears up. 

I live in the country on property. If I want to walk the dog on my property in the morning it will be okay. He goes to the vet tomorrow!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

If you recall this thread was created because I recognized he needed to see the vet yet he had not accepted me to the point of letting me touch him. In the end I came to believe that forcing the collar on would not be as bad as the possible effects of delaying the vet visit.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> If you recall this thread was created because I recognized he needed to see the vet yet he had not accepted me to the point of letting me touch him. In the end I came to believe that forcing the collar on would not be as bad as the possible effects of delaying the vet visit.


You are correct. But you only need one collar (the flat one) and you only leave the leash on when you are with him.  You just went a little overboard on the collars and leashes. 

Now that it's on him, work on tethering him to you and see how that goes. Work with him while he is in drive and reward any touches with food. Touch him, give food. Play tug, touch him with one hand while tugging with the other, and tug some more.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Keep the faith and don’t let your pups history get in the way of your success. We have trained a feral kitten that was 6 months old. Actually my daughter did most of it. It was during the most brutal winter and a fox was around getting some of these cats. We were waiting for months to get this kitten as we found her home for her sister months prior. This older kitten was really feral. The kitten was handled daily (with gloves at first)a little at a time slowly increasing. The kitten wanted nothing to do with us. I had my doubts as this kitten was older and really feral and but boy what a turn around. It took two - three months to get this kitten to become comfortable and trusting of people. Really turned into a nice cat and was able to a find a home with a friend who had a little boy. Such a great cat and really good with the little boy always get updates. 

Even though you have had shepherds in the past, it’s a good idea to get a reputable trainer familiar to come to your home who has experience with gsds if possible. It would be helpful. Again important to work with your pup daily. The trust will build when you show him
their is nothing to be worried about when getting out of his comfort zone.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

We made it through the night with both collars and leashes in place. As I suspected the flat collar was too loose and he pulled it off. Had I not had the choke chain on he would have been free and no progress would have been made. Now I’ve had a chance to tighten the flat collar. He continues to fight the collars but has shown no inclination to bite as yet. He has refused food and water since the collars have been on but I know he will drink when he relaxes some. He knows he is caught now so he is not running from me. I’m able to check the collars and pet him. I’ll just keep my contact with him brief and allow him to calm afterwards.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dog have been choked with getting choke chains caught and panicking and choked to death. Collars and leashes should be in when supervised only. If your must keep a flat collar on only a break away collar would be the safest. Especially a pup who is way past his comfort zone. It may be a good idea having help with bringing the pup to the vet. There are vets that come to the house. Again I advise an experienced trainer guide you through so you can help your pup in the best way.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ged-by-collar-in-horrific-freak-accident/amp/

https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/blog/dog-strangulation-by-collar/


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> Dog have been choked with getting choke chains caught and panicking and choked to death. Collars and leashes should be in when supervised only. If your must keep a flat collar on only a break away collar would be the safest. Especially a pup who is way past his comfort zone. It may be a good idea having help with bringing the pup to the vet. There are vets that come to the house. Again I advise an experienced trainer guide you through so you can help your pup in the best way.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ged-by-collar-in-horrific-freak-accident/amp/
> 
> https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/blog/dog-strangulation-by-collar/


OP has been given advice over and over again, and goes and does the opposite of what was advised. OP was told not to keep the collars and leashes on overnight by many members, and that 2 collars and leashes are overkill.

OP says that he/she has experience with GSD’s and animals, but everything he/she posts shows someone with little knowledge of the breed, or animals all together. 

Using the house to pee and poop at will because the OP was to afraid to collar and leash the pup to take him outside to go. Says the pup doesn’t seem to have worms. Is going to take the puppy on a walk this morning, when the pup is not vaccinated. The pup had one vaccine to date, and has missed the next two vaccines. Says that he wants to wait another month before trying a collar/leash to build trust first, and wait that month for a vet visit. 

It just doesn’t add up to someone familiar with the breed, or dogs in general. I’m beginning to wonder if OP is just making the whole thing up ?‍♀


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Jchrest, what an absolute load of garbage you have posted! The dog is doing just fine although he is not happy being controlled. The collars are on him and I can get him to relax and move with the leash. He also allows me to touch him. This is a lot of progress since he also got the collar about 12 hours ago. I approach him calmly and take the leash. He quickly quits fighting the leash and will take a few steps with me. When he does that I praise him and end that session.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> Jchrest, what an absolute load of garbage you have posted! The dog is doing just fine although he is not happy being controlled. The collars are on him and I can get him to relax and move with the leash. He also allows me to touch him. This is a lot of progress since he also got the collar about 12 hours ago. I approach him calmly and take the leash. He quickly quits fighting the leash and will take a few steps with me. When he does that I praise him and end that session.


You can think what you want, my concern is for a puppy that isn’t being handled properly. You’ve been given so much advice by members here, and you go off in a completely different direction.

Someone familiar with raising any pup would know that peeing and pooping inside is a huge no no. And YOU allowed it because you were too afraid to put a collar and leash on him. You haven’t potty trained him, and he’s 18weeks and 50lbs! You said he doesn’t like you holding the leash because he doesn’t like being controlled. No dog likes being controlled. But that’s what responsible dog owners do. They control the dogs behaviors through proper training and reinforce that training. 

I really don’t care either way of what your personal feelings are towards me, I care about the heath and well being of a pup who has been allowed to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants it. Because he is not going to be a puppy forever. And you’ve already complained about him being hard to handle because he is 50lbs, and doesn’t like you in control of him. I’m seeing a 100lb full grown adult being a MUCH bigger problem if you’re letting him control you as a pup.

I have 20-25yrs of fostering and rehabilitating dogs of all breeds. I’ve taken in dogs that no one could control because the original owner was a lot like you, and afraid to make the right choices for their dog. Two of those dogs I kept, and still have them. 

My now 9ish year old shepherd was 2-4 when I got her. She was used as a breeding bitch, and was chained to a chain link fence. The only human interaction she had was when she was fed, and when a male GSD was brought to her for mating. 

She tried attacking me multiple times a day while being tethered to me. She had never been around a person long enough to create a bond, and saw humans as the enemy. It took months until she would trust me, but I never gave up, even after having my arm torn to shreds by her in the first few weeks. But you know what? She was collared and tethered to me as soon as she came in the door. She was vetted the day after. You do what you have to do to ensure your pup or dog is properly cared for, and that includes potty training, vet care, and at minimum, basic training commands.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

J, I’m aware this is about the pup and not between us. But let’s straighten out the facts. I did allow the pup to be loose in my house for a month knowing that was a bad habit I was teaching him but I had hoped to get his trust before putting on a collar and leash. Through this forum I decided that the collar must go on whether he was ready or not. I did worm him and the vet will likely start all over on his shots. At this moment he is doing pretty well on the leash. He fights it initially but quickly gives to it. When he does give to it I praise him and end that session. I now have my yard fenced. I regret there was not a fence when he first got home. But right now he gets it that I’m in command, I have never been afraid of him ... just hoped to gentle him some. That didn’t work in total but the dog has learned I mean him no harm and although he doesn’t like the leash I believe he respects me. I think there has been no harm done. Now that he has a leash on I can work with him.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would suggest that you make it more than just praise. Will he take food from your hand or is he still to anxious to do that? I would have a party with him. Very excited. YES YES YES. Feed feed feed. The more you do that, the quicker the adjustment.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Right now my pup is tolerating the leash but he’s not happy. He has chosen to lay in a corner of my yard although he knows it’s cooler on the patio. I can approach him and he wants to avoid me. I step on the leash which stops him then I reel him in and pet him and praise him. His ears are up. He’s not at all afraid but he doesn’t like the leash. He’s not drinking water or taking food at this time. I think I should continue this approach until he accepts his predicament better. 

Just like yesterday, I did listen to you owners. I did put the collar and leash on. Now I’m attempting to condition him to it. 

I only know to continue to approach him and work through his problem with the leash. 

If there is anything else I could do now I’m open to suggestions.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Right now my pup is tolerating the leash but he’s not happy. He has chosen to lay in a corner of my yard although he knows it’s cooler on the patio. I can approach him and he wants to avoid me. I step on the leash which stops him then I reel him in and pet him and praise him. His ears are up. He’s not at all afraid but he doesn’t like the leash. He’s not drinking water or taking food at this time. I think I should continue this approach until he accepts his predicament better.
> 
> Just like yesterday, I did listen to you owners. I did put the collar and leash on. Now I’m attempting to condition him to it.
> 
> ...


You have shifted his whole perception of the game and he is showing you his displeasure, lol.

Up until now you have been his doormat. You gave, gave, gave and asked for nothing. He liked that. He made the rules. He set the boundaries. 
I would suspect that this dog will prove to be a steady, smart and fearless companion. He isn't cowering or hiding. He is doing the equivalent of crossing his arms and stamping his feet. It's like the child yelling that they hate you for making them eat their veggies.
I would just carry on and do what you like, if he wants to pout let him. When you want to walk, pick up the leash and "let's go". When you want to train, when it's time to come inside or go outside. The more you fuss over him the more he learns that he has you. He wins. Set the routine in a calm, clear way with no big show.
If he was fearful, I would take a different approach, but I see no fear in his eyes and nothing you describe is fearful behavior.
And more pictures! He's a handsome boy. I think you got a good one.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gowacky said:


> Right now my pup is tolerating the leash but he’s not happy. He has chosen to lay in a corner of my yard although he knows it’s cooler on the patio. I can approach him and he wants to avoid me. I step on the leash which stops him then I reel him in and pet him and praise him. His ears are up. He’s not at all afraid but he doesn’t like the leash. He’s not drinking water or taking food at this time. I think I should continue this approach until he accepts his predicament better.
> 
> Just like yesterday, I did listen to you owners. I did put the collar and leash on. Now I’m attempting to condition him to it.
> 
> ...


The drag line is so he can't take off, I'd quit reeling him in and start working on him willingly moving toward you on leash. Even if its as simple as him coming forward a foot to take a treat, its him doing it, not you with the leash. I'm personally not a tether fan, I never do that for the same reason. With your dog, and after you've cleared up a little of the grey area from you're original post, I'd try to avoid building any resistance in him you have to overcome. He's going to resist being pulled around to one degree or another. You're already seeing it with the accepts his predicament part of your post. I'd rather work through his problem with the leash by changing his perception to something good, rather than too much submit to it or else. 

When I said get it over with, I mean get it on him and then you can begin showing him the positive side of having it on.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> Right now my pup is tolerating the leash but he’s not happy. He has chosen to lay in a corner of my yard although he knows it’s cooler on the patio. I can approach him and he wants to avoid me. I step on the leash which stops him then I reel him in and pet him and praise him. His ears are up. He’s not at all afraid but he doesn’t like the leash. He’s not drinking water or taking food at this time. I think I should continue this approach until he accepts his predicament better.
> 
> Just like yesterday, I did listen to you owners. I did put the collar and leash on. Now I’m attempting to condition him to it.
> 
> ...


Will he chase a ball? The idea is to get him moving with the leash on him without any pressure on the leash from you. If he will just move and chase something, that will help him get over it. 

Steve is right, you have to get him in the mindset to come towards you. He was following you around so it's in there, he just needs to get past the leash thing to do it again.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Things should be fun and not battle of wills. 
A good video to help with the leash. Treats should be extra special with diced up chicken, hotdog, beef etc. 
https://youtu.be/1-eKSSuUaz4


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

He’s certainly not fearful and now he’s moved to a cool spot. He’s not happy with the leash but I think he’s adjusting well.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Well, can’t see the eyes but the way he’s sitting with the ear set and head slightly tilted, yup not very happy but thinking about it and that’s good. 

At this point, I bet he’s watching and paying very close attention to you. I’m pretty sure if he is, that it isn’t mistrust at all, it’s just that he’s probably watching your facial features to help him gauge how he should feel about all of this. This is a good thing also. It’s making him use his brain. Especially since you are staying calm and upbeat.

Also in case you don’t know, If when you are standing, or even when sitting sometimes a slightly forward bend will cause a dog to back away or will hesitate to come closer to you. A slight bend backwards invites them forward or to come to you. Doesn’t have to be exaggerated, just a shift of the upper body. It’s just something to keep in mind as you work with him.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

What a Pensive pup! 

So I've never dealt with a "feral" pup before but I trust my instincts when it comes to animals, they have not let me down yet. 

I agree with Steve in the sense that there can be a little less coercion and a bit more winning of trust. 

Don't use line to pull him to you...have tasty treats in your hand and call him to you. Leash can trail loose, not be a means of control/force.

For touching...you can just sit down and have treats on and around you, let him come snuffling very close and on top of you. If he lies on your chest or is very close, raise your hand slowly and give him a gentle touch, and put it back down again. Chances are, his sheer inertia (and love of treats) will make him think it's not worth it to get up and walk away. We taught our guinea pigs to tolerate petting/picking up with this method..and they were scared little prey critters!

If you're gardening or reading and he edges closer, praise him and say, "good boy! want to come see what I'm doing?!" 
Or you could 'play' with one of his toys and call for him, and when he comes over to you, it's playtime.

I know some people will think that some of this sounds like Bribery via Food, but food is a very powerful way to communicate with animals. Even goldfish know how to behave to get food, and remember who gives them food. You won't have to bribe and be Ms. Treat Lady for life...just till he unwinds and decides that you are the best human in the world...

I agree, he seems very smart and spirited and proud!


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I like to use toys to engage my dogs. One is toy crazed and will do just about anything for his tugs. If you can find something he loves, use it. Once they learn to play and have fun you can move past some of that fear. He doesn’t look fearful in the pictures, but cautious. You can work with that. Have you decided you can’t use a trainer?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This is one of those times I would hand feed his daily ration of kibble. If he wants to eat, he has to come to you and he will get rewarded each time. Start with tossing a couple of kibble a few feet away, gradually shortening the distance until you are dropping kibble at your feet and then progress to him taking it from your hand. I would not bother with trying to pet him too much throughout the day but I would have three or four sessions a day with high value treats such as cooked meat. During those sessions I would start with slowly reaching under his chin to stroke him as you fed the high value treat with your other hand. Over time, move the strokes to the side of his face and when you think he is comfortable, you can then pet the top of his head. Many dogs feel threatened by a head touch so go slowly. Making eye contact is okay but break it off after a second or two as staring can be threatening too.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thanks to all you who are following Tuff’s journey. He is truly a calm, smart dog. So 2 days ago the collar went on plus an attached leash. I’ve seen his behavior before and read this ... he would just get in a tight place and freeze. He never threatened to bite. So, with the immediate reaction to the collar he did the ‘wild thang’ for about 10 seconds. I was shocked the he quit so fast but I was calm and planted and I believe he quickly saw the futility in struggling. He then actually followed the leash like a pro. I just did that very briefly then let him go. The next morning as we go outside he was shying from me but I can step on the leash. He stops and again recognizes not to fight it. I’m calmly go down the leash to him and pet him a little. Then praise and release the pressure. This morning the same routine and noticed he had returned to the friendly dog with ears up and I give him a little raw steak and chicken. But today I picked him up and we made the vet visit. He acted perfect through the entire time. He gave no resistance to the vet or assistant. He is just perfect! I intend to continue the leash exercise until he will come when called. Then the leash comes off. But as he is at rest about 85% of the time he does not seem to mind dragging the leash. He simply has a wonderful temperament.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Wonderful to hear! I'm very happy for you. 
How did the vet visit go? Clean bill of health?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Yes he weighs right at 50 lbs and the vet said he appeared perfect. She restarted his shots as well as heart worm meds and he is scheduled for more shots and to be neutered in 30 days.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would hold off on the neutering for now. He is still really young and early neutering can cause health and behavioral issues as well as altering proper growth.


----------



## Kennaandkurama (Apr 15, 2019)

The vet will tell you otherwise to this most the time though ^^^ please, wait as long as you can to about 2.5 years till he’s done growing, Or at least a year to get him fixed! 
Vets tend to try and rush people to fix their dogs and I don’t completely understand why. Maybe because irresponsible people breeding them, or they think it’s better. I’m unsure but try to hold off! ?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

This vet is an Texas A&M grad. I didn’t go in there asking that he be nurtured so soon but she advocated for it.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Hmmm... I have great respect for you owners so maybe i should delay having him nurtured. I don’t see a downside to waiting. He won’t be making babies.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Vets push early spay/neuter, especially in some areas, to prevent unwanted puppies. Generally if the vet does not know you they will suggest it. It's not personal and really has nothing to do with money, since it will get more expensive as he grows. They are just doing their part to keep unwanted animals from happening.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My male will be 6 this year. Intact. He marked in a pet store twice. The second time I gave him a correction to remember. He has not done it since. His behavior and temperament are wonderful. If you are a responsible owner and you keep your dog from breeding unnecessarily then there is no reason to neuter. There are several studies from universities like UC Davis and Tufts that show early neuter/spay is not the healthiest choice. If you want to neuter, that's your choice. If not, then tell the vet No. You can google the studies and make an educated decision on this. If nothing else, try to wait until he's done growing.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Your dog is going to need all those male hormones for calming and confidence. I would be in no hurry to neuter until his adult temperament develops between two and three years. At that time, you can revisit the pros and cons of neutering and its impact on behavior to see if it is still something that you want to do.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thanks again! I was able to cancel his appointment and I was able to talk to the vet. All that she had to say was it would lessen his aggression. I thought that was very presumptuous. I do listen and appreciate you and I’m sure I can speak for Tuff ... Thanks Guys &Gals!.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What aggression???? lol Aggression and marking seem to be an early neuter tagline for vets.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Thanks again! I was able to cancel his appointment and I was able to talk to the vet. All that she had to say was it would lessen his aggression. I thought that was very presumptuous. I do listen and appreciate you and I’m sure I can speak for Tuff ... Thanks Guys &Gals!.


Your vet needs to update her education. Neutering only ever impacts behaviors tied to sexual drive or frustration, and in fact early neuter may very well increase aggression. Glad you spoke up. 
Just want to say for someone on such a big learning curve, you are handling this all like a pro. I think Tuff is in good hands.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Now that Tuff has a collar and his shots I’m thinking of changing our morning routine to make it more fun for him. Think I’ll remove the leash and use a long light rope and allow him to smell and explore. I could do a little training on the long rope too. He’s just not under control enough to play fetch outside the pen. If he got distracted I don’t have him trained well enough to be certain I could call him. But a long rope should be fun.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My dog is 10 months and I still have a 15' long line on her just in case. Don't be in a rush to not put a long line on him.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thank you very much. See we had a great love for a GSD but that was immediately after college which was a ways back. He was never nurtured and was a wonderful dog. 

One good thing about becoming ancient is a greater willingness to accept criticism. It’s particularly easy when you know it’s about the welfare of my dog. I have a calm and smart pup and I sure don’t want to ruin him out of ignorance.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

The vet. She does have a great education and Texas A&M is a great school. But I’ll bet she is in her 20’s. Very young. I can imagine personalities of dogs is just not on the curriculum. But the idea that animals are calmer if cut goes back many years. I know in horses that stud horses are more difficult to handle than geldings. Dogs probably are calmer. But as pointed out this trait may not be desirable in GSD’s.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Now that Tuff has a collar and his shots I’m thinking of changing our morning routine to make it more fun for him. Think I’ll remove the leash and use a long light rope and allow him to smell and explore. I could do a little training on the long rope too. He’s just not under control enough to play fetch outside the pen. If he got distracted I don’t have him trained well enough to be certain I could call him. But a long rope should be fun.


I was a horsewoman first, long lines make sense to me. They are an integral part of any training I do. Some people are uncomfortable with them, and I get it. They can be awkward to handle if you aren't used to them. I have a 9 year old dog that is a born hunter. She is never off leash or line. 
I'm sure Tuff will enjoy the freedom to sniff a bit, just make sure he stays on point that you are still calling the shots. Do short sessions in between letting him wander.


----------



## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

Vets want to neuter because it’s a money maker. There’s really no health benefit to it, in-fact doing it too early can cause health issues. If you must neuter wait till the dog is 2 years old and fully grown. Dogs aren’t more aggressive or dog aggressive because their intact. TBH most vets are pretty clueless, their robots for neutering too young, don’t feed raw but feed Science Diet because raw is dangerous, oh your dog has an ear infection we must treat him aggressively with antibiotics. Their all taught the same **** that’s sponsored by hills and pharmaceuticals company’s. IMO find a very good vet that practices in both western and eastern medicine.


----------



## davb47 (Nov 6, 2018)

My 18-month-old female is like that. She sometimes comes to me for petting, but usually is standoffish. When she does want touching, she is all for it. Just not as often as other dogs. She follows me from room to room and likes to be near me, but if I reach out to pet her she will usually pull away.

When I discovered this aspect of her personality (when we brought her home from the breeder at eight weeks), I deliberately handled her a lot, full-body massage, tummy rubs, scratching ears. She relaxed into it, but she would not initiate it.

Dogs, like people, have their preferences and personalities. I think handling your pup on your schedule, not hers, is important. She must let you collar her, trim her nails, looks at her teeth, etc, so you can’t not do it because she doesn’t care for it. Just be slow and patient and dole out treats while you do so she associates handling with good feelings. She may never be a cuddled, but she should learn to accept and even enjoy your attentions. My dog is becoming more overtly affectionate as the weeks go by. Good luck. Keep us posted.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I think I’m seeing that same tendency with Tuff.He has done very well, wants to be where I am, will eat from my hands, will get his paws on my chest to reach treats. When I catch the long leash he allows me to handle him, pet him, etc. However, he still shies away from touching. He tolerates it but will not seek affection. It’s hard to imagine that one day he will want affection. But we’re in a good place now. I can go slow.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

This morning was more good progress. Tuff let me approach him without shying away. Once this is established the leash can come off except for training. I will not chase him down every time I want to handle him.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff seems to learn so fast. After dragging the leash for just 3 days he has now began to allow me to approach him without shying away. After he did this repeatedly I removed the leash. As long as he continues to allow me to approach him he can be free of the leash until it’s needed. I continue to be amazed at how fast he learns.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think you both are doing great. Remember to start teaching Come. He needs to come to you.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff is 7 months old now and I’ve had him about 2 months now. Enough to begin to know him. I think he is probably very unusually calm. He is content to sleep the great majority of the time. Yes, he has a couple of active periods daily but they are brief. There seems to be different energy levels in dogs and Tuff may go against the trend in GSD’s but I believe that’s who he is. This suits me fine btw.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This raises a red flag for me. This is not what I'd consider normal for a 7 month old GSD, especially since the dog has not been to the vet, or properly wormed.

I strongly recommend you get him to the vet sooner rather than later. And of, course, take a stool sample with you for analysis.

I worked with a breeder who suspected that the breeder of a dog she'd imported had lied about the dog having been wormed. She gave the pup worm medication. This was the result:

I counted the round worms in the sample. There were over 30 of them. The dog appeared to be completely healthy with a normal energy level.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

But that is not the case. He has been to the vet and he’s been given a good report.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I was watching Michael Ellis and he mentioned that once he lived in an apartment with his GSD. He said he would come home daily to find the dog totally calm. Tuff is just a very calm dog. We’ve all seen dogs that are high energy. That does not describe Tuff.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> But that is not the case. He has been to the vet and he’s been given a good report.


Did you bring in a stool sample? Did they do a fecal test there? Did the vet deworm him? 

My foster that had a prolapse acted the same way. Sleep A LOT, more than any puppy/dog should. After the surgery (to surgically reattach the the intestines to the anal wall), and the deworming (after he was healed from surgery) his worm load was so bad that it looked like a bowl of spaghetti noodles, and did after the next few dewormers too. 

After, he completely changed. He had so much energy, so much life in him, it was like we were given a different dog by the vet. 

Please don’t rely on OTC dewormer. Allow your vet to do it, and bring a stool sample with you.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I just need to stop engaging in these threads, it’s driving me mad.

OP, I wish you and your pup all the luck in the world. I truly hope this ends with a happy ending many many years from now


----------



## stevreb07 (Oct 3, 2018)

Time, it's just going to be time, love and training...it shouldn't take long but some are more wary than others, be patient, be kind, be calm and use treats. I got my Korra at 4 mos old and she was part of a litter on a farm that was kept a little too long, I don't believe they were overly affectionate with them even though they had little kids, so it did take us a little while to get her to be okay with being loved on. Some are really affectionate, some are like cats, Korra loves to be hugged and kissed, she really loves her kisses but on her terms, she will get up and move just out of reach if she isn't in the mood. Korra has to be right there, right by us all the time, but not always touching. My husband brought home a GSD/Wolfhound mix, he was 7 weeks when we got him, he'd scream and whine when we'd pick him up like he'd never been held or cuddled before, it took him all of a week to realize that all the kisses and cuddles were AWESOME and that he would just die without them all the time, now we can't get him off of us, now at 6 mos old he is the size of a small horse, he has outgrown his sister by 10lbs and 5 inches and he's a terrible lap dog.


----------



## stevreb07 (Oct 3, 2018)

You may want to see a different vet, my puppy is a calm puppy at 6 mos old but he is a regular pain in the butt, they are supposed to be a pain in the butt....there is calm and then there is sick calm. It would be worth doing a worming and having a second opinion just to see if this will perk him up. Good luck.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am inclined to believe that the lower energy may be a defense mechanism. I think this dog had a really rough start in life, I think he has had a lot thrown at him in a fairly short time and I suspect that once he has processed all of this his energy levels will change.
The dogs expression appears intelligent and calm. I think everyone is doing fine and time will tell. 
Sabi was a really quiet pup as well, and I did express concern to my vet. She was just fine and a whole heck of a lot smarter then me.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I think Sabi’s Mom is right on. And I think there is calm and sick calm. Tuff is just calm. This pup feels good. It’s just over 100 degrees daily and Tuff prefers the cool concrete and central air. And in the last week he’s accepted a collar and leash for the first time. He’s still a little resentful of this control that’s new to him.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> I was watching Michael Ellis and he mentioned that once he lived in an apartment with his GSD. He said he would come home daily to find the dog totally calm. Tuff is just a very calm dog. We’ve all seen dogs that are high energy. That does not describe Tuff.


I have a long haired German shepherd who was born calm. We have had her since she was a puppy, she's 7 now. She has never in her life done one bad thing, and her energy level is low. She's a complete couch (bed) potato. She's also my service dog, literally saving my life once already, and who's losing her sight.



Her also longhaired potential replacement has been here for 8 days. She's 8 weeks old, and a holy terror. May be wound too tight, or maybe I just forget what it's like to raise a puppy in house, it has been 7 years. But her parents are really good farm and all around dogs and she's a super smart puppy.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

So, this is the morning after night 2 outside. I think this is confusing to Tuff and I wanted to be consistent. The problem I created was allowing him to potty inside the house for a month. Now I have the backyard fenced and I am working on that problem. But I’m not gaining his trust with these changes. This morning he’s confused and although he wants to be near me he doesn’t want to be touched. It’s still early morning and I have coffee outside with him. All that’s on his mind is being allowed back inside. He’ll be allowed inside all day and he has pottied outside so although I expect some tendency to potty inside I’ll be in a better position to catch him and encourage him to go outside.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m sorry, but you’re making everything harder on both Tuff and yourself. He is a dog. Yes, we all love our dogs, but you are describing human emotions when you talk about Tuff. And it’s becoming a big deal because YOU ARE making it a big deal. 

And you still haven’t listen to the advice given (and not just my advice, but other members as well). There is no need for him to be left outside. Buy a crate today. Right after you finish your coffee. And then USE it. Anytime you can’t have your eyes on him, in the crate he goes. When you’re ready to take him out, straight to the backyard to potty. When he goes, make as much excited praise as you can. If he doesn’t go, he goes back into the kennel until he is ready to potty outside. At night, when it’s time for bed, move the crate next to your bed so you’ll be able to hear him if he needs to go out at night. Al though he is certainly old enough to hold it through the night at this age. 

You’ve had experience with this breed, and other breeds, per your posts. Potty training is puppy 101. 

My pup broke her jaw a week after we got her. She couldn’t be around the big dogs, because they hated the cone, and would try and attack her. So she was taken out front when she needed to potty. Not on a leash, no fence around my front yard. You do not need a leash or fence to potty train your dog. Seiran knows her boundaries out front, and doesn’t leave our yard, because I was diligent in watching her, and would give commands if she started to go outside the boundary. I rarely have to use a recall on her now. 

Dogs trust fair, firm, confident handlers. I’m not getting that vibe from you at all. You need training as well. 

Your pup is being a spoiled brat because you continue to let him get away with it because you feel bad and don’t want to upset him, and I hear you talk about trust a lot, but never hear what you’ve done to earn that, other than letting him get his way. Man up and be what you dog needs, not the man your dog wants. It’s that simply, I promise.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sorry but I hate the crate and he will not be put in one! I regret my yard wasn’t fenced when I got him but it is now and I don’t understand how putting him out at night is a problem. The problem as I see it is I’ve not been consistent. I agree I’m not doing anything to earn his trust. But I must address the potty problem and my answer is for him to be put out at night. Other than your preference to use a crate I’d like to know one good reason to not put him out.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Where do you live that you can sleep knowing your dog is outside alone all night? I'd be worried about idiots causing trouble. And if you dog starts barking at night are you going to get up and deal with it? Then your dog will learn that to get attention, he needs to bark at night. Personally I think the energy dealing with all of that would be much better spent teaching him to accept the crate. Of course he won't like it at first. You have to teach him that it is not negotiable and not really a big deal. The calmer you are over the whole thing (easier said than done) the sooner he'll understand what you expect of him.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Let’s see. Your fence line is very low. He can be taken by someone. He could be attacked by an animal jumping the low fence line. Looks like you live in an area with snakes, he could be bitten by a snake. He could get his collar and leash you leave on him tangled in the fence and choke himself to death. He could realize that he is big enough to jump that low fence, and away your doggie goes.

Crating is not torture to a dog. They are, by nature, den animals. Which means if they were left in the wild, they would burrow out a den and live in the den. Crates mimic a den for dogs. We never shut the door if we didn’t put them in their crates. But you know where they are when they want to rest? In their crates, because they love feeling that den feeling. It makes them feel safe to rest.

You blow through every bit of advice offered with lame excuses. I’m done beating this dead horse.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Putting out in the back hour are confusing him sending mixed messages that he may have done something wrong. Lots of trouble a pup can get into if left alone all night- mosquitoes heartworm disease - is your pup on preventative, digging holes, scaling fences, barking as mentioned, digging holes. Not sure what wild animals may live in your area. You are not showing him anything- he may hold it all night and when you let him poop in the house.

After your pup had drink some water, eat and play put him on a leash and go outside when he poops or pees mark it with a word go potty reward him big with much praise. He will get it. Then repeat through out the day. 
A crate is a communication tool. It is a tool to show the pup what you expect in the house and allows you to create structure and good habits. You have to ask yourself -what good habits are being taught to create by allowing him to be outside all night unattended. How are you letting him know what you want?


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

*******I’ve starred this because it’s extremely important and I haven’t seen it mentioned yet. If it has sorry.

Since your house has been used as the potty place, you need to clean it thoroughly with an enzyme cleaner to rid it of all odor of urine and feces that your pup can detect. To humans your house probably does smell clean and potty free but to any dog coming in, the odor is probably still there and will entice you pup to potty again. There are many enzyme cleaners for pets/dogs on the market so that should be easy enough to find. Since Tuff used your house for a while, I would clean several times spaced out a week or so apart and make absolute certain that Tuff does not potty in the house again until it is done. Use the tethering that has been advised when he’s in. *****
——

Fwiw, dh and I felt as you did concerning the crate. Never crated our previous dogs. I changed my mind about it and changed my attitude. Changing my attitude from it’s an ugly cage for convenience sake for lazy owners to it could be his safe haven. My guy loved his crate it was the place when he wanted peace and quiet. It’s all about how you introduce it and teach him. There are fun crate games you can play with him that actually will strengthen the trust bond between you.

It does not mean that Tuff will never have free roam of the house. Once you teach him, when and how you use it is entirely up to you. You don’t even have to reply and continue to say that you won’t use one, just asking you to open your mind a bit and look into it. I put the crate awaya long time ago and then had to bring it out because the sport that we do requires one. We enter the sport when he was five years old and he had been crate free 4 of those years. When I brought it out he remembered his safe haven and was happy to enter it again.

If Tuff ever has to go to the vets for an overnight, everything is going to be unfamiliar there except being crated with maybe a blanket or toy brought from home if he has already been crate trained. I hope that never happens but you will be thankful that you trained him for it.

Maybe just explore the possibilities. I won’t say another word about it everyone has their preferences.

But please get the enzyme cleaner if you haven’t already done so.

Been silently cheering you both for success.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

The more I think about you lecturing me about a crate the angrier I get. I believe I’m responsible to provide Tuff with a safe home. Most people do not have the luxury of space due to other pets, children, etc. Crates are almost the only answer for many people. BUT I live alone and now have an attached fenced backyard. I have the luxury of providing Tuff with a large secure area. 

Yes, I probably do talk about Tuff like I would a human. They’re **** close! 

In time he will develop a vocabulary with me and he’ll learn this is his place. 

He’s inside during the heat but out from 11-6 am. He can learn this is his life. I doubt you can provide as much for your dog but you likely have several and your life is simply different than mine. 

I’m waiting for your apology.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I think Tuff thinks you’re funny if you think there is an enzyme cleaner on the market that can prevent Tuff from always being able to smell where he and others have peed. I mentioned my floor is cement! I’ll bet you Tuff can detect about a half dozen other dogs who have peed in that spot. I just mop daily with dawn and vinegar. How could they make drug dogs if the scent was easily hidden?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The crate would just be a tool to use in training out what you said in your own post you've created. Peeing in the house. It would help make him reliable in the house, whether you want to leave him outside or inside. Just something to use like a collar and drag line. Scents can be scrubbed clean, whether its cocaine or urine, maybe what your using will do it. Enzyme cleaners are specifically for what stays as odor. Why have so many dogs been peeing in your house ?


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

If you were talking to me, I offer a very sincere apology as lecturing is not my intention. It was just my experience I had with my own very strong aversion to crates before my boy. 

Also saying this good naturedly, I am very aware of the power of their nose my guy is amazing at it. And your right, not much gets by them but the enzyme does help, thus the suggestion of a couple application. I do hear vinegar is good also, not sure it has the enzymes.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sorry, was kicked out via some glitch, I also apologize for the manner I typed it. Over did it with the stars alert. I probably would have been taken aback by that also. Im not able to undo the dumb stars or I would.

No offense meant and heading out now.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> The more I think about you lecturing me about a crate the angrier I get. I believe I’m responsible to provide Tuff with a safe home. Most people do not have the luxury of space due to other pets, children, etc. Crates are almost the only answer for many people. BUT I live alone and now have an attached fenced backyard. I have the luxury of providing Tuff with a large secure area.
> 
> Yes, I probably do talk about Tuff like I would a human. They’re **** close!
> 
> ...


Pretty sure this is directed at me. 

1. Don’t hold your breath, you’re never getting an apology from me. I haven’t said a single thing I regret, or a single thing that deserves an apology.

2. You asked me to give you a good reason not to leave him outside. I gave you more than one. But rather than address those issues in a mature manner, you just go off the deep end with anger.

3. I provide MUCH more for my dogs than you provide for yours, hands down. We have a large walk-in underground pool they take advantage of many times a day. I have an agility course setup in another section of my backyard, separately fenced. My dogs gave a large doghouse we built ourselves that has A/C in it. They have a doggie door, and can come and go when they please. The property is surrounded by a 6ft brick fence. We run them on the agility course, we play scent games and hide in seek in the house. We train daily, even for the older dogs, because it mentally stimulates them. I also have a property in CA that has 5 acres of land, and every weekend, I load my dogs and my kids up, and we all go up and have a blast for the weekend. My kids get to ride our horses, my GSD gets to herd our sheep and chickens into their pens every evening, and again, the property has a 6ft chain link fence around the perimeter of the property. I’m pretty positive my dogs love their lives. And love the fact that after all that running around, playing, training, and herding, they have their crates that they love to go lay down and take a nap in it. 

4. My 5 month old pup already knows off, down, sit, lay, look at me, come, too far, leave it, heel, wait, and is fully potty trained. 

5. You say you have the responsibility to make sure Tuff has a safe home, but there is nothing safe about leaving him out all night unattended, with the incredibly low fence line. You’ve done little to nothing to train him because you have this weird notion in your head that trust is the most important thing. Trust is built with guidance, not leaving a pup to use your house for the bathroom for a month, and now just be left outside because you won’t properly potty train him. You have to be the rock that they look to to make sure everything is okay. Again, learned through training. And they need to be treated like animals, because that’s what they are!!! I don’t know why you think they should learn and react like humans do, it’s not the case. Heck, even human babies are more trained than Tuff. 

6. Stop using anger as a cover up for the real issues. You bit off more than you can chew. You know nothing about raising this breed. And I hope for Tuff’s sake, you don’t end up with adult that attacks you like happened with another elderly gentleman who bite off more than he could chew.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m really not angry and never have been. I had correctly guessed this forum would be filled with passion and I was right. 

You have a awesome set up for your dogs. And I understand that you have spent and continue to spend a great deal of time training your dogs. I have no doubt that they are better off because of it. 

However, I hope and plan to provide a safe and happy home for Tuff. He is more of a companion. 

I understand you don’t approve of lots that I’m doing. I think you should be a bit more tolerant of other ways to live. There is a middle ground.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> I think Tuff thinks you’re funny if you think there is an enzyme cleaner on the market that can prevent Tuff from always being able to smell where he and others have peed. I mentioned my floor is cement! I’ll bet you Tuff can detect about a half dozen other dogs who have peed in that spot. I just mop daily with dawn and vinegar. How could they make drug dogs if the scent was easily hidden?



Yeah. You won't get that out. Concrete is porous unless it was sealed with a top coat. We've had Boxers that would go all over the house at night (my husband refused to crate them). I've soaked the floors with bleach and with vinegar. It's there. And Vinegar IS an enzyme cleaner. You can try one but at this point the only way to stop him is to tether him to you, take him out about 15 minutes after he eats/drinks until he gets the idea to go outside. I would imagine you'll have to give him a correction when he tries to go inside now too because it's now a habit that he's been allowed to do. 

Enzyme cleaners don't "hide" the scent. They neutralize it and it's gone. Drug scent can't be neutralized.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Now - as far as a crate. Dogs really do like them once they get used to them. There is a great DVD called Crate Games that will show you how to do it. It's only about $30. The dogs enjoy the game and learn to enjoy the crate as a "safe" place. All good things happen in the crate. They are fed in the crate, given treats in crate. My puppy RACES to a crate as soon as we grab a handful of food or say Crate. 

Crate training will help you in so many ways. One, the house breaking. Two, if he ever needs to go to the vet and stay overnight, he will be familiar with it. 

My 6 yr old still takes his treats to a crate to eat. It's his place where he can not be bothered. My dogs always have crates to go to when they want. I really urge you to give this consideration.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jchrest said:


> Pretty sure this is directed at me.
> 
> 1. Don’t hold your breath, you’re never getting an apology from me. I haven’t said a single thing I regret, or a single thing that deserves an apology.
> 
> ...


Your dog house sounds nicer than my house....Big enough for me to move in? :grin2: 

Sounds your dogs have it good. I bet they are happy pups.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

My DH can lay down in it, so as long as you’re not over 6 ft, come on over! I’m lazy though, still haven’t painted it, which was my only “job” in it being built ?


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

We ghetto rigged a high power window unit onto the dog house. It’s hard wired behind the dog house so no naughty dogs can chew the cord off (which happened the first time). The roof is covered with shingles and water proof, and can be opened all the way for cleanup and replacing bedding. Amateur at best, but I’m sure it will look cute as soon as I paint it and stencil the names on. I tried taking a pic of the roof opening, but it’s so danged heavy I couldn’t manage more than a crack ?


----------



## Gaia (Jul 9, 2019)

I respect other people's decisions to not crate their dogs, but I will give you this info:

Dogs of breeds like Tuff actually really enjoy having a "den".

I have a husky, a GSD, and 3 mutts. The mutts get run of the house and sleep wherever they want, but the other 2 have their own dedicated den space that they can run to when they want to calm down. They understand that it's the only place in the house that belongs to them and like being there.

It's not about punishing them, they just like having somewhere to go. And I know it's different for you because Tuff is your only dog. And you might think Tuff doesn't need his own space, if he hasn't tried to claim one.

But if you don't want to lock him away, maybe TRY getting a crate and never close the door. Put a comfy bed in it, all his favorite toys, give him his food in the crate.
Never even close the door.

He might not be into it, or he might thank you for giving him a den!
Just something to consider!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Gaia, it kills me to lock him away from me at night. And it confuses him as he thinks he’s being punished. He has chosen a place and its a yard from me. Then when I go to bed he wants to sleep in the bedroom. So as I often hear, he wants to be near. He’s 5 months old now and I don’t think he would go into a crate (I’m hearing screaming) I personally hate crates! Outside for 6-7 hours does not have to feel like punishment forever. I think he will not hear anything harsh from me when it’s ‘bedtime’ You know I can’t allow him to potty inside. Outside for a few hours is my answer although I hate it (but I hate crates more)


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I'm not pushing a crate on you but if you think that crating your dog next to your bed at night equals screaming, then you are doing it wrong.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Gaia, it kills me to lock him away from me at night. And it confuses him as he thinks he’s being punished. He has chosen a place and its a yard from me. Then when I go to bed he wants to sleep in the bedroom. So as I often hear, he wants to be near. He’s 5 months old now and I don’t think he would go into a crate (I’m hearing screaming) I personally hate crates! Outside for 6-7 hours does not have to feel like punishment forever. I think he will not hear anything harsh from me when it’s ‘bedtime’ You know I can’t allow him to potty inside. Outside for a few hours is my answer although I hate it (but I hate crates more)


I would guess for now outside is a viable solution, if you think it's safe.

Settle down folks, there was a time when putting the dog out for the night was normal. Admittedly it would never be my choice, but I like sleeping curled in a heap with the dog(s).

I am going to strongly suggest that you purchase a sturdy plastic crate, not the wire ones and work on crate training. For all the reasons mentioned. There may come a time when it is necessary and when he is injured, ill or stressed is not the time to teach him. It's a life skill.
Before I was homeless, lol, Shadows crate was in my spare room and it was not uncommon to find her in there napping. 
I have had dozens of dogs through my home of all ages and from all backgrounds, not one in the last couple of decades has left without being crate trained. I have found that almost all dogs welcome the personal space and for a feral dog it takes the place of a den and gives them a security they don't have elsewhere. 
We can help with methods that are stress free for him to learn to go in.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Both my dogs were crated as puppies when I couldn't keep an eye on them.
BOTH OF THEM voluntarily go to their crates during the day to nap and have some quiet time. 

The breeder of one of my females posted this on FB today. I had to edit it a bit for language: 

This lady is a very experienced breeder and does everything right. She just had a litter of 6 pups, and is posting daily pictures of them. She also does extensive socialization with them before they go to their new homes at 8 weeks. Many of her dogs have been purchased by the police or military, as well as being used as sport dogs (schutzhund, tracking) or just plain pets. Believe me, this is someone who REALLY REALLY knows her stuff!


----------



## NiabiTheGreat (Jul 14, 2019)

Okay, I am new here. I actually joined just so I can reply to this. I have never owned a (Purebred) GSD, I won't until August, 17th and that will be MY first ever dog, and my first ever GSD. I know, I know, not a great breed for beginners. But my family has ALWAYS had dogs that I ever much helped take care of. I also do shelter work when I have time and have seen my fair share of "Problem" dogs, and think I have a fair bit of knowledge about what im getting into.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt! Obviously we all have our own opinions. Ask 100 owners, get 100 different answers. Simple as that. Crates are used by so many people because they work! So many people wouldn't be using them so much if they didn't work/caused more problems than it is worth. As others have said at least do it for the simple fact he one day escapes and get picked up, or he is ill or has a bad reaction to meds or something of the sort and the vet need to keep him overnight in a kennel. He may react badly to that due to lack of training. Possibly even "aggressively" or bite someone out of fear and stress and he sounds like he will be a big boy! This could ultimately cause him to be put down if he escapes and you don't get word and he ends up in a shelter. Most "aggressive dogs" as they would call him in this case. Would never be adopted and then a very real possibility is that he would be euthanized. If you won't keep him in there at least do this to avoid potential heartbreak and lawsuits. 

Now to some other reasons. Again, if he is fine outside that is alright. Many breeds are actually left outside. Mainly LGD breeds, but they have really thick fur and have become very resistant to many issues over the years of breeding.

As has been mentions there are so many things that could happen outside that can make him ill, could kill him, could cause him pain, or you could lose him. What is so bad about a crate when compared to those things? He would be sad for a few days, maybe a few weeks. That's about as bad as it gets. Every dog I met that has never used a crate has learned to love it over days or weeks. Mothers of almost all carnivorous mammals will build a den. Those puppy or babies are then left in or mostly live in that den until they are ready to leave and live on their own which is generally between 3 months and 3 years. Crates are like a den for dogs. Once they learn it, and to like it they will sleep in it, retreat to it when they are stressed or scared. That is normal behavior. My families dogs and I, live on a large property(30+ acres). Lots of livestock. Lots of work. They are free to do(mostly) as they please and live a great, free, dream life. As soon as we come in for the day they go right into their crate for a nap. They aren't scared of it. Aren't stressed by it. They don't dislike it. I don't ever close the crate anymore, I don't need too. In fact, I don't even need the crate inside but they seem to be more stressed when its not here than when it is. 

You said you watched GermanShepherdMan one thing he says that I really like and that I do think if true to an extent is "About every 1 month in a dog, is 1 year in human years. Remember that. A 3 month old dog is like a 3 month old child. Doesn't really want to listen to you but will pay attention for a little while and then get bored or distracted and run off" so your 5 month old pup is like a 6 year old human. What does a 6 child do when he/she is stressed or doesn't want something. They will normally go into their room and close the door. Their room is a safe place. If they are put in there by a parent they normally throw a fit, might cry, scream, or just go to sleep/pout on their bed. Same with a dog. 


Another thing I want to mention is that dogs should be treated like dogs. Not like humans. The dogs I have seen with the worst problems are those people treated like a human. If you want a dog to be a human, you should join a group of something you enjoy, go out with friends, talk with neighbors, kids/grandkids, etc. A dog will never be and probably doesn't want to be a human. That's not to say you can't love him, and him to you. And not to say that he will not connect with you, listen to you, understand you, and provide you with companionship, loyalty, and unconditional love a human could not give. He will. But he is going to do it as a dog NOT a human. I love animals WAAY more than people, but even with that, I don't stop treating an animals as they are. I communicate to them in their own languages. My goats are treated like goats. Cats like cats. Horses like horses. Dogs like dogs. Etc. You need to learn to communicate like a dog to a dog, and also like a human to a dog.

I am not trying to be harsh in anyway. I hope it is not take the wrong way. I have seen so many people who tame criticism waaaay too seriously and you seem very mature about handling it. Every wants what's best for Tuff. We all want it to work out. I truly wish you the best in continuing with his training. I will be watching and rooting for both you! Sorry for any typos. It's late and im tired. Best of luck! -Niabi


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thank you again Sabis Mom! A voice of reason among so many who will not consider alternatives. This was Tuff’s 3 rd night on the patio. I’m trying to show him this is not punishment. He got a hamburger Kong as a bedtime snack. I might add he has not pottied in the house these last two days. Tuff will mind me but he still has that coyote wariness that I don’t like. He’s still confused and will not play. But he’s only heard kindness from me and I think he will come to realize it’s not so bad.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

BTW, my comment about hearing screaming referred to me imagining the response from the readers when I said I don’t think Tuff would go in a crate.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Good news! Tuff wanted to play tug this morning. After 3 nights outside and thinking he was being punished I saw a change this morning. Once again he wanted to play tug. That is a nice change from having nothing to do with me voluntarily. I see this as progress and resuming where we were before the change to sleeping outside.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm just going to harp on this crate thing one last time and then I'm going to go track my dogs.

Friday was a perfect example of why crate training is such a good idea. My dogs are trained because I do sports and they need to be in crates while others are on the field. I teach them to go in. I teach them to NOT come out until I say they can so they aren't busting out when other dogs are going by or into a road. That's the kind of control I teach mine which isn't necessary for a pet person.

But Friday, for the first time in 30 years, my husband messaged me and asked me to come home. He wasn't feeling well. Couldn't breathe. Chest was tight. No way is my 80# male going to let a stranger in if one of us is down. Because my dogs are trained, all he had to do was say "Crate" and they race for their crates. he didn't have to fight with them to get them outside or in a room while his heart rate was over 150. He just said "Crate" and shut the door. So now all the dogs are safe (because IF emergency personnel have to come thru that door, they will shoot the dog to get to you or you will die while they wait for someone to come contain the dog so they can get to you) and my husband's aunt could come down and monitor him until I got home. 

If you don't want to crate your dog, if I had a safe fenced place to let them out to run I certainly would. But at the very least, please train them to a crate in the event that he will be crated at a vet's office or in the event that he needs to be contained so someone can help you. I have yet to see a dog that doesn't love the Crate Games games or love to eat their treats in a "den" where they can be "safe".


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax, well said.

I used to not crate my dogs when in the car. Then, one of my dogs managed to lock me out of the car - TWICE!

The first time, I had a window open wide enough that it wasn't a problem. The second time, I was in an isolated area, the car windows were closed, and the vehicle was sitting in bright sun on a hot day. And of course, I didn't have my cell phone with me!

By the time I was able to get to a phone, and call my room mate to bring my spare keys, the dog had been shut in the hot car for 45 minutes.

I was very close to having to break a window to save the dog's life.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I have a zillion crate stories too. Mine are show dogs, so they need to learn to be crated at a show. They also need to learn to be crated safely in the minivan. They need to learn to be crated at the vet. So many applications for crates!

Carly recently had an eye removed. I brought her home, and she immediately climbed up on the couch next to me. About 10 minutes later she slithered off, went into the mud room and got into a crate, where she stayed for the next couple of hours. She had dog beds, chairs, and couches to choose from, but wanted to be in a crate. 

Russell, at about 6 months, chewed up something in the 10 seconds I wasn’t watching him, ended up needing exploratory surgery, lost 3 inches of intestines. When I got him back from the vet, I was instructed to keep him quiet, and no bouncing, etc. Crate rest, or risk undoing his intestines. He’s crate trained, so no problem. 

This isn’t always about locking a dog up in a box, because you’re lazy. It’s a good thing for a dog to learn to accept a crate.


----------



## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Can I harp on the crate thing? Even if you don’t want to regularly use a crate, it’s in the dog’s best interest to crate train them. They need to be crated for a vet stay, for grooming, boarding, flying, agility classes. I live in Florida, we get hurricanes. If I had to go to a temporary shelter, a lot of the dog friendly shelters required crating. Even without having to go to a shelter, I evacuated during Irma. I stayed at two hotels and my cousin’s house. She also had two dogs. THANK GOD my dogs were crate trained. I can’t imagine having to subject the hotel or my cousin’s family to crate training. That would have been inconsiderate. 

You think I want my dog to learn about crating in anyone of those situations especially without me???? You may think you have the ideal set up for your dog, but you never know what life throws at you. 

With that being said, my dog LOVES his crate. He goes in it on his own. He often takes naps in there with the door open. It’s helped tremendously in keeping him away from my elderly dog while I’m at work, or if I’m cleaning and don’t want him near the chemicals. Also, people come over to my house who are scared of him. It keeps him and everyone safe. 

I also have a fenced in yard...but I’m in southern Florida near the Everglades. It’s simply not safe for him outside without me. Not just with the heat...we have bears, panthers, snakes, cane toads...etc. 

Crating isn’t just for people with limited spaces, or who think are taking the easy way out with training. You have no idea how practical and life saving crate training can be. 

I really want to stress how important it is for the dog. You shouldn’t let your feeling about crates get in the way of doing what is in your dog’s best interest. I say this as someone who used to feel the way you do...over 20 years ago. I will never go back to not crating my dogs. 

Off my soap box.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And again - If I had a safely fenced yard where I could let my dogs out, I would have them out all day long. I'm not against what you are doing at night with him. Just want to stress the situations where a dog knowing a crate could be so very important. It's just a tool, use it appropriately and there is no issue.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> And again - If I had a safely fenced yard where I could let my dogs out, I would have them out all day long. I'm not against what you are doing at night with him. Just want to stress the situations where a dog knowing a crate could be so very important. It's just a tool, use it appropriately and there is no issue.




I’m not against a dog outside just being a dog. I do have a secure dog yard, and frequently (weather permitting) toss my dogs out there. I have a dog door, and I’m pretty sure Russell slept outside a lot. If I can’t find Scarlet, I’ll whistle for her, and she’ll blast back in through the dog door. She likes to take a nap out on my brick patio. By herself. Sometimes though, she’s camped out in one of the crates in the house. Options are good.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> I’m not against a dog outside just being a dog. I do have a secure dog yard, and frequently (weather permitting) toss my dogs out there. I have a dog door, and I’m pretty sure Russell slept outside a lot. If I can’t find Scarlet, I’ll whistle for her, and she’ll blast back in through the dog door. She likes to take a nap out on my brick patio. By herself. Sometimes though, she’s camped out in one of the crates in the house. Options are good.



oh man. My dream is to have a back deck, fenced in at the bottom and let them come and go as they please. Dogs should be allowed to just be dogs, not little furry humans. Unless it's raining non stop. then they have to be little furry humans and not play in the mud unattended.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Thank you again Sabis Mom! A voice of reason among so many who will not consider alternatives. This was Tuff’s 3 rd night on the patio. I’m trying to show him this is not punishment. He got a hamburger Kong as a bedtime snack. I might add he has not pottied in the house these last two days. Tuff will mind me but he still has that coyote wariness that I don’t like. He’s still confused and will not play. But he’s only heard kindness from me and I think he will come to realize it’s not so bad.


I lived outside with stray dogs for a while, I have different views then some.

But I do strongly encourage you to crate train. IF, God forbid, you are ever in need of medical help it will be vital to your safety as @Jax08 pointed out.
As I and others have stated, you need not use it if that is your preference but it really is a life skill and can be a life saver.

I was assisting with removal of animals during a flood one year and we had a few dogs that were not appreciative of the assistance. We were removing them to high ground in a temp shelter stuffed with crates where they were documented and transported to safety. It was chaotic and stressful. We had fights, bites and a few flight risks. I remember clearly thinking that if even half were crate trained it would have been at least a bit less traumatic. These were dogs that were scared, lost, some injured. They were being handled by total strangers and a good many caused injuries to themselves fighting not us but the crates.
Just consider it, for his sake and yours.

I am glad Tuff is showing signs of improvement. Dogs are adaptable. I'm glad he likes tug, it's seems a great connection for you both. 
Something to consider. I taught all my dogs that when playing tug if the pressure was from above they could go nuts, but if it was lower they needed to be gentle. I did it because the kids were little at first and I did not want flinging of toddlers. Later it became useful with elder neighbors who liked to visit. Now with an injured shoulder it is a useful skill again.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thanks and I understand all the good reasoning behind crate training. Tuff’s a good smart dog. I can actually see daily progress with him. Right now it’s getting hot and he would like to come inside. Of course he’s welcome but I use his needs to battle this wariness that I hate. He would like for me to crack the storm door and then go sit down. I want to hold the door open for him and call him inside. We’re having a battle of wills now.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes! I forgot about all the dogs that had to be crated in the aftermath of our EF5 tornado a few years ago.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Then I had to sternly command him to be easy. He reluctantly obeyed. I then clipped the leash on. He balked at going through the door but we made it. Once inside I removed the leash. Now he’s settled into his corner where I knew he wanted to go. 

He’s just still a pup. Episodes like that will go away with a few repetitions.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> Thanks and I understand all the good reasoning behind crate training. Tuff’s a good smart dog. I can actually see daily progress with him. Right now it’s getting hot and he would like to come inside. Of course he’s welcome but I use his needs to battle this wariness that I hate. He would like for me to crack the storm door and then go sit down. I want to hold the door open for him and call him inside. We’re having a battle of wills now.


Are you rewarding him when he does come in? Feeding him from your hand? Giving him lots of praise? If you pay him, it makes things go much easier and he will be more willing. if you go to work and don't get paid on Friday, are you going back on Monday?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is really nice to be able to let the dogs out in the yard. I understand how it burns off a lot of energy - especially puppy energy and can be helpful. My yard helped me give exercise to my dogs when it was challenging for me to do so. Puppies though have to be checked in on as they can get into trouble when exploring. Similar to allowing puppies to free roam in the house when at work or out- pups gone wild. 

Luna, -once- when a pup attempted to dig up my slate patio when which took quite awhile to build. I am so very happy I caught that from the start. I had also learned quickly my four foot fence can be easily jumped by an adolescent max- lots of wild life to chase here and so much to explore. 
It is good to be aware of what puppies can get into. Often you get warnings of any things that need to be tweaked. Sometimes not.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Yes I reward Tuff. You see Tuff is supervised at all times except for time asleep at night. I’ve spent enough time with him now that I can often understand him or his confusion. He’s smart but still very young


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m sure that because I’ve been with him all the time he has had little time to get anxious which leads to destructive behavior. He has not destroyed a single thing to date. He has moved some things that he is not allowed to play with. As these instances happened when I didn’t see it I say nothing. I would only correct him if he’s in the act.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

When Tuff was first brought home he wanted to see every room. Just once he pawed a door. I allowed him to explore the house. Now he is not interested. He has a favorite place and prefers to stay there.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If it works for you that is great if it does not then you need to readjust. Puppies explore they are very curious and intelligent about the world and their surroundings. Puppies explore with their mouth they chomp and chew, chase, follow their noses and dig it is normal puppy behavior. Just the same as would be the same if a toddler climbed on a table or tried to swallowed a shiny penny, attempt to investigate a light socket. If adult dogs were destructive there would be different reasoning behind that.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Do you agree as I have read that in the animal world the new animal (Tuff) must come to the pack leader (Me) and want to be allowed to become a member of the pack? If this is the case I’m not getting anywhere with him. He will play just a little tug but otherwise he shows no interest in socializing. He avoids me instead. After putting the collar and leash on he fights it very little. And I can get him to reluctantly stand while I put the leash on. In other words he does only as much as he is forced to do. He likes treats and the air conditioned house but I’m seeing no interest at all in getting friendly. I’m thinking I should withdraw more from him and see if he will respond. I am so disappointed in the breeder allowing him to become feral. I have doubts that he will ever change. I do not have a playful puppy who likes people. I have a wild animal who is forced to eat but gives nothing in return. I have nothing but time and I’ll continue to try to get him to interact with me but I’m very concerned at this point.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Fwiw, you are probably going to have to teach the value of coming to you. Do you know his “sweet” spots? Most dogs love under the chin and front of neck, belly and butt rubs but some have other area where they melt. Every time you have to handle him, give him a good scratch or knuckle rub in one of those area. He may not like it at first just because you’re handling him but he’s going to think about it.

I rarely “pat” my boy as my hands automatically start rubbing or massaging. It’s how I taught him to become more affectionate with me when he was young. 

My thoughts of what wild animals do: we and they aren’t in the wild. Some basics can apply others not so much.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

All I know is that he loves to play tug. Other than that and taking treats from me he would prefer not to be touched. I think you’re right in that some animal world tendencies exist but it’s not a pure animal world. I’ll continue to work with him.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I think a few pages back another member suggested that when you tug, as your tugging with one hand, use the other to pat, touch etc. he’s less likely to back away because he’s concentrating on the tugging. Touching while tugging though will probably increase his tugging efforts which is good. But I would try also during another scenario.

Sometimes just laying the hand on him gently but firmly with out moving you hand will have a much calmer communication rather than the patting strokes. I use that technique when my guy is having a hard time settling when something outside got him going off like a banshee. It is effective.

Just some info and worth a try.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is good that he likes tug his engagement will grow with you. He must be greatly rewarded either by really good treats or games of tug for all the things you want from him -as mentioned. This is key. The rewards make him want to do things for you rather then he has to do things which is very important at this early stage of learning.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Another thing is to make him earn his meals. Hand feed him. 

Some GSD are more aloof. But most are very people oriented and want to work. If tug is what he loves, use that as much as possible.

Is he house trained yet? If not, I'd be focusing on that as well.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would not sweat the details. Just keep moving forward with him. Do what you need to do and he will fall in line. It's tough with dogs like this. I have never found any method that will speed the process, it depends on the dog.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I would not sweat the details. Just keep moving forward with him. Do what you need to do and he will fall in line. It's tough with dogs like this. I have never found any method that will speed the process, it depends on the dog.


I agree with all the above, but for one point. It doesn’t just depend on the dog, it depends on the dog AND the handler.

I understand OP that you are trying to be gentle with him because of the feral situation, but you’ve continued to allow him to be feral, and he’s now 7 months old! Your concern is for his feelings, you need to switch gears and be concerned about what is right for him, not what is comfortable for him. Take charge, and show him exactly what you want, and reward the holy bejesus out of him when he gives behaviors you want. You don’t have to be cruel to be in control. I think that’s what you’re missing. You can be firm and confident and take charge in a non threatening way. If you don’t do that soon, you’re always going to have a feral dog on your hands. It’s time to push some boundaries with him.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This dog is not feral. He simply had little neutral exposure to other people. Right now you seem to have a bonding issue with this pup. What are you doing for fun with him that he enjoys besides playing tug?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

HeartandSoul, I’m going to work on your suggestions. Thanks. Maybe I need to demand a little more from him. I’ve kept it very brief to this point but it’s not working well. I’ve taught him to stand there and let me attach the leash. Then he is doing well and wants to not hit the end of the leash so he’s trying cause it scares him when he fights it. But I think I need to increase the amount of touching I’m doing. He won’t like it but you’re right he will take note. 

We’re currently hung up over something weird. The difference between outside approaching 100 degrees and inside at 75 is my storm door. When it’s cooler I was adjusting it so it stayed open enough for him to go back and forth. Now he tells me when he wants in but he’s insisting I fix the door like it was. I think that writing this has made me understand I taught him one way and then switched. I don’t think that’s fair to him so I’m doing it his way. Don’t you agree?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I just read the other comments and they really struck home. I could always have this behavior if I don’t stop it. So I’ll handle him more and spend more sessions with leash work. I’ve not even attempted to teach commands but he needs to learn to come, sit, stay, down, drop it,


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> I agree with all the above, but for one point. It doesn’t just depend on the dog, it depends on the dog AND the handler.
> 
> I understand OP that you are trying to be gentle with him because of the feral situation, but you’ve continued to allow him to be feral, and he’s now 7 months old! Your concern is for his feelings, *you need to switch gears and be concerned about what is right for him,* not what is comfortable for him. Take charge, and *show him exactly what you want*, and reward the holy bejesus out of him when he gives behaviors you want. You don’t have to be cruel to be in control. I think that’s what you’re missing. You can be firm and confident and take charge in a non threatening way. If you don’t do that soon, you’re always going to have a feral dog on your hands. It’s time to push some boundaries with him.


Much better said, that was the point I was trying to make with do what do. Brain is still in first coffee mode.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m soaking all this in, I promise. As mentioned I think the technique of just resting my hand still on his chest would be calming. 

I see that I can take him from his calm spot and do some training and reward generously. 

And he has now gone 4 days without pottying in the house. I don’t think he’s trained so much as he’s being fed at bedtime and he’s out til mid morning. But I watch and I’m prepared to scold him if I catch him in the act.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Funny though. I had taught him the way the storm door worked and when I wanted to change on him he didn’t like it. This time I think he is right. I propped the door open, he came in immediately, now the door is closed and he’s in his fav spot.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> All I know is that he loves to play tug. Other than that and taking treats from me he would prefer not to be touched. I think you’re right in that some animal world tendencies exist but it’s not a pure animal world. I’ll continue to work with him.



I realize he's been a feral dog and probably hasn't had the best experiences with people. but, most dogs learn to LOVE to be touched. Only we can get that really awesome fist/knuckle into their ear to make them over-the-moon happy. Only we can give them a great butt scritch or massage their hips if they are feeling sore. 

I have a GSD puppy whose not quite 9 weeks old, and a 7 year old service GSD. Both long haired. Ellie, my service girl, God knows what life she had before coming to us at almost 4 months old--I know she didn't wag her tail, ever. For 6 months, not a wave or a wag. Now she wiggles like a fish out of water. I taught her and she taught me, from minute 1 she knew I was her safe place, and safe person. If she has a burdock (we're country dogs) I'm the one she runs to to save her. And in return, she saved my life, literally. I was caught on a cliff's edge, having fallen, being older, hanging by one arm from a tree, ass in the air--and husband was too far away, but Ellie was there in a few seconds. I said the one thing she knows is never negotiable--PULL, means "get me outta here", and outta there we went. Now, she's going blind, so I have to help her as much as she helps me. I'm hoping Daisy will learn to help both of us.

Now Daisy the Terror (almost 9 weeks, who isn't?) is smarter by a mile, but can be bratty because she is so quick. In a bit over 10 days she knows "Come" "Sit" "Down" "Off" "ACK-means NO"and she's added her own flair of a rollover, after a good down. I do Heel by luring, and she's really quick. She knows not to touch the chickens hanging out on the doorstep because they are also pets, she doesn't even notice the canaries I let loose every day to fly around for a few hours. AND--she knows her crate. I didn't teach that, they were in a metal enclosure at the breeders, and crate is where she gets her food and her special treats. She has NEVER pooped yet in the house, though I stopped using the drag line because she knows what going to the door means. The only time she's peed has been right in front of the door, and that's pretty close to outside. If this little furry monster already knows all this--your bigger monster can know it all, too. 

Because they are German Shepherds and because I've trained dogs for most of my 55 years--I will not EVER play tug. I have chickens and have seen what happens to one that ends up getting played with. (Has never happened here in all the years and all our dogs) Nope. If you have something in your mouth, you are giving it to me. Ellie and Daisy can play however they want, but I want a soft mouth that has never learned to pull back from my hand. 

Good luck with Tuff, he's smart...you need to be smarter than him, and don't humanize him, he's still a dog.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> I agree with all the above, but for one point. It doesn’t just depend on the dog, it depends on the dog AND the handler.
> 
> I understand OP that you are trying to be gentle with him because of the feral situation, but you’ve continued to allow him to be feral, and he’s now 7 months old! Your concern is for his feelings, you need to switch gears and be concerned about what is right for him, not what is comfortable for him. Take charge, and show him exactly what you want, and reward the holy bejesus out of him when he gives behaviors you want. You don’t have to be cruel to be in control. I think that’s what you’re missing. You can be firm and confident and take charge in a non threatening way. If you don’t do that soon, you’re always going to have a feral dog on your hands. It’s time to push some boundaries with him.



Spot on, Jchrest.

I always say Ellie was "Born good", because she has honestly never done a single incorrect thing. She just knows what to do and not do. I've never had to correct her, she's never even heard me say No. She's stable and low energy, where the whirling dervish puppy, is still a whirling dervish. I expect that as a young puppy, but by the time they are 5-6 months old, they are in obedience class and doing some fun but serious work. I praise highly and am always really energetic with my Good girls (Ellie won't take treats, but she works for praise.)


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Lets clarify something. Tuff is not technically a feral dog, he is a dog that lacked any sort of human imprinting. Left to their own devices dogs revert VERY quickly to feral type behaviors. Because these behaviors are instinctive and ingrained in the genetic memory they can be extremely difficult to get a dog out of. Especially if that is all they have ever known.
I brought Shadow home still blurry eyed at just a few weeks. I was there from that point forward. I cleaned her, cuddled her and fed her. Her earliest memories would be of me. I still went through a year of feral dog behavior. Hiding, denning, shying from touch, fighting restraint, running off with food. Given that mama was 2nd or 3rd gen on this property and the dogs in all that time had been largely left to their own devices with regards to survival, this is understandable.
In Tuffs case it sounds like poor mama had a huge paradigm shift at the worst possible time. And a previously cared for, if not loved, dog was essentially abandoned to her own devices with a litter of pups to defend. That would have a devastating impact and would clearly translate to the pups. By 4-5 months of age the bulk of "shaping" is done and this dog has no reason to trust, no background to draw from. Mom would likely be an easier project, she knows people are good. 
Humans have done nothing for him and the only real interaction was the act of removing him from the only environment he knew.
Yes he needs to learn to trust and that resting in a corner is a defence behavior. It speaks to an intelligent and thinking dog.  @Jchrest said that his boundaries need to be pushed. I agree, 100%. This dog will need to be not coaxed, but moved into his new life. The trust comes from letting nothing happen to him, from meeting his needs and showing him that you have his back. He needs to learn that good things happen when he does as asked. But I would not expect that this dog will willingly, on his own, come around. Why would he? He has no idea what the other side looks like.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I have a Furminator on order. Does your dog like to be brushed?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> I have a Furminator on order. Does your dog like to be brushed?


You may have better luck for now with just a regular brush. Some dogs love it and some hate it. My current dog will submit happily to a small slicker brush, but hates the shedding rake. 
Keep it simple.
On the screen door, some dogs are wary of things like doors. For now I see no harm in pinning it open. Practice going through it on leash a few times a day where you open and close it as normal.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Lets clarify something. Tuff is not technically a feral dog, he is a dog that lacked any sort of human imprinting. Left to their own devices dogs revert VERY quickly to feral type behaviors. Because these behaviors are instinctive and ingrained in the genetic memory they can be extremely difficult to get a dog out of. Especially if that is all they have ever known.
> I brought Shadow home still blurry eyed at just a few weeks. I was there from that point forward. I cleaned her, cuddled her and fed her. Her earliest memories would be of me. I still went through a year of feral dog behavior. Hiding, denning, shying from touch, fighting restraint, running off with food. Given that mama was 2nd or 3rd gen on this property and the dogs in all that time had been largely left to their own devices with regards to survival, this is understandable.
> *In Tuffs case it sounds like poor mama had a huge paradigm shift at the worst possible time. And a previously cared for, if not loved, dog was essentially abandoned to her own devices with a litter of pups to defend. That would have a devastating impact and would clearly translate to the pups. By 4-5 months of age the bulk of "shaping" is done and this dog has no reason to trust, no background to draw from. Mom would likely be an easier project, she knows people are good. *
> Humans have done nothing for him and the only real interaction was the act of removing him from the only environment he knew.
> ...



Sorry, I keep messing up trying to reply. It's a really sad situation. 
I know I said "feral", and it isn't technically correct. I have been reading this topic for quite awhile. 

He's unsocialized, and lived life as a kennel dog, having little human contact from day 1 of birth till OP got him. With new owner He's not house trained and barely allows her to leash him. Likes minimal contact but wants to be around her. Point one in his favour. 

The mom, I agree would have been an easier start, especially if OP is new to dog training. 

But as you said, he's an intelligent and thinking dog. German Shepherds usually are. He is craving a job, whether it's learning new commands with lots of treats, it's absolutely fun to teach a dog. When you are working as a team, OP- there's nothing finer. 

Agree with everyone who says he needs to be given something to do. Time to push him, he will like you for doing it, especially if he'll do treats or ball for reward. He'll trust you sooner and forever if you make him know YOU are his person. You teach him. Get him leash trained to basic obedience, and if you can't then have him trained by someone who can. Move him into the state he needs to be in. German Shepherds are smart dogs, herding dogs who really want to have a job.


(And give him a crate, he'll appreciate it!) I never close the doors on mine and there's a puppy in hers now. All dogs NEED to learn to be crated, they just do. There's lots of people who've said this in this thread, I'm adding my 2 cents too. :|If he's intact, better address that sooner than later. Or he'll be marking your home forever after.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I forgot to add...my dog was on the kill list at the shelter. They had put him on the list because HW+ and "will not allow staff to touch him". A rescue pulled him last minute and a foster family had him for a few MONTHS and said that slowly, he was "learning to be a dog". Because they had many other dogs, he was able to see them petting their other dogs and interacting with them, and that helped him to trust humans.

However to this day, although he enjoys a chest or tummy rub, he doesn't enjoy a lot of petting and touching. He lays nearby but physically, he is reserved. (He has licked my hand twice...once when I came back from being away for a week, and once when I was lying on sofa with the flu!) That is just the way he is...he will never be a touchy physical dog but we love each other, it's OK.

Anyway his foster family said it took MONTHS...so maybe Tuff needs that amount of time, too...? 
Maybe adjust your mental timeline?


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Yesterday was a good one for Tuff. I had a visitor who brought her female dog. Tuff socialized very well. His attention to the female made it easier to handle him too. And I increased the amount of handling of Tuff. I went to him several times and either held my hand to his chest or scratched his chest. Then we had more time on the leash. He did not fight the leash and wants to follow it. I’m sure he prefers to not get nervous and fight it. So we had a short session that ended well. He continues to shy away but quickly allows me to attach the leash and work with him a little. So, I handle him more than ever and he accepts it. I think we should continue this for some time. There’s lots of room for improvement but we’ve come a long ways this past two weeks.

And he hasn’t pottied in the house in about a week now.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I commend you for taking this pup and trying to do your best with him. I do know you are doing what you feel is right.

But I would never leave my dog outside at night alone. There are too many hazards out there that could be problems for him. Has he even had a rabies shot? Having a fenced yard is no guarantee that wildlife cannot get in. And he could dig himself out in minutes if he decided to. Then there are the people who want to hurt our pets, or steal them. To me, this is not a safe situation. 

As others have said, having a collar on him can also be a problem, especially outside. There are many things it could get caught on. I once lost a kitten having it outside with a collar on. I'll never make that mistake again.

I'm a firm believer that if you want a pup to bond with you and trust you, you need to live with him or her 24/7. To me, that makes a huge difference.

There are other ways to house train a dog without using a crate and without keeping him outside. Would you consider keeping the dog in a small pen inside, like keeping a toddler in a playpen? Your dog could sleep there beside your bed at night where you could monitor him and take him outside whenever he needed that.

Also, please don't scold him if he makes a mistake in the house. Those are your mistakes, not his. It's your responsibility to see that he gets outside often enough that he doesn't commit those errors. He hasn't yet learned the rules and you shouldn't punish him if he doesn't know the behavior is wrong. That won't help with his trust in you. Just take him outside and let him relieve himself there. When he does, make a big deal of it with lots of praise and maybe a treat. 

Make sure you take him out frequently during the day, especially after he eats and whenever he wakes up from a nap. 

It sounds like you are making some good progress. Keep up the good work, but don't be afraid to push your pup a bit. 

And forget the alpha thing. You want the dog to be a partner, with you as his leader and protector. He needs to know you are always there for him and will have his back. You have to be fair. One of my favorite saying is "Never lie to the dog".


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You have yet to answer whether you are rewarding this dog. A pat on the head is not enough.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Oh yes I reward him. I’ve learned how to make high value treats like small balls of frozen hamburger, freeze a spoonful of can dog food, cheese and milk bones. If there’s a mistake it’s that I sometimes just give him a treat for nothing.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Right now it doesn’t get much below 80 at night and quickly gets too hot in the morning. Tuff is not a high energy dog and loses interest pretty quick. He is supervised at all times. But we get inside and he’s content in his spot as long as I’m in my chair which is very near. I’ve began to go to him more and rub his chest. He’s no longer quick to run from that. He has yet to lick me or show affection but still we’re making huge progress.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Lick you? Lol. You might be waiting a long time. I have not found this breed to be a licking kind and that in itself is a major attraction for many of its fans.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

That’s funny. I’ve been hoping for a bit more affection and it doesn’t have to be a lick. I’m remembering puppy licks and they were gross!


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Pawsed said:


> I commend you for taking this pup and trying to do your best with him. I do know you are doing what you feel is right.
> 
> But I would never leave my dog outside at night alone. There are too many hazards out there that could be problems for him. Has he even had a rabies shot? Having a fenced yard is no guarantee that wildlife cannot get in. And he could dig himself out in minutes if he decided to. Then there are the people who want to hurt our pets, or steal them. To me, this is not a safe situation.
> 
> ...



Truer words were never spoken.
Puppies and young dogs are like sponges, they soak up so much in their young lives. Anything good, and anything bad. But I contend they want to learn, never met a puppy who didn't want to learn new things, just simple things like come or sit consistently. I know you'll work hard with him, just try not to make huge mistakes, read lots, watch decent trainers on youtube. There's SO much available now that wasn't available to us older folks before the internet, we had books. 



I personally like Larry Krohn/Pakmasters training, he does a lot with ecollars but you don't have to. I do not like the GSMan at all...he calls his wife Puppy Girl and thinks it's cute. Bleck. 

There's a young man named....shoot. Tom...? Upstate Canine Academy, he's quite young but he's really, REALLY good at reading dogs, I enjoy watching him teach, especially taking dogs straight from rescues and kennels with reactivity problems. I quite enjoy him.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Lick you? Lol. You might be waiting a long time. I have not found this breed to be a licking kind and that in itself is a major attraction for many of its fans.



My puppy Daisy is an insane licking machine. Never met such a wiggly, waggy puppy. When we tuck my husband in to bed with Ellie, (We're nighthawks, he's a day hawk) Daisy loses her mind, goes straight to hubby's face, sits on his chest and licks him til he's soaked and hysterical. 

Ellie, gives him one kiss on the chin at suppertime, and that's all the licking she ever does. It's the polite, "Thank you for feeding me" lick. But we know she loves us.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Lyka licks me like crazy, which I’m not crazy about. Her spit is super sticky and just ew, but she does it out of love, so I let her get always with it. Seiran is a licker too, but still a pup, so I expect that to go away sooner rather than later. Crios doesn’t lick, unless it’s feet. He will lick DH’s feet for ten minutes straight when he gets home from work. I won’t let him touch my feet, so gross!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I believe this could be called a paradigm shift. I still hate the crate but I think Tuff would accept being tethered at bedtime. I don’t think he would potty while tethered. If he needed out he would wake me and I’ll take him out. 

What do ye say?


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'd say no.

A former room mate is really, really dense when it comes to animals. Her parents were gifted a black mini poodle, and they didn't want it, so they tried to foist it off on my friend.

She didn't have a dog crate, the house was wall to wall broadloom, and of course, the pup was NOT housebroken. So she tied it to the handle of a cupboard door in the kitchen at bed time.

I got up during the night to check on it. The dog was so wrapped up in the leash (which was a chain, not leather!) that it was nearly strangling itself!

She had a dog of her own, a mixed breed which she would tether outside, and not really care when it wrapped its tieout around bushes and couldn't reach its water bowl. 

If I had a backyard I couldn't fence, I'd maybe rig up a clothesline type tieout so the dog could run back and forth, but even then, I would be keeping a very close eye on it while it was outside.

Another story: my grandmother tried tethering her cat outside. Unfortunately, the tether was long enough for him to reach the nearest tree. Luckily he was wearing a harness, or he would have strangled to death. As it was, I have no idea how long he was hanging suspended in mid-air before I looked out and found him hanging there!

Nope, nope, nope, do NOT like tieouts!!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

You don’t know Tuff and don’t quite understand my intentions. First, Tuff will not fight the leash. He is calm and will lay still. Second, I’m talking about keeping him within 6’ of me. 

What you described was terrible and I agree with you re that situation. This is not even close.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I lost a GSD pup to tethering alone outside. sigh.

in the bedroom might work. Personally, if I didn't crate, I'd close the bedroom door and set a timer for a couple of hours. Get up, walk the dog and go back to bed. Even with a crate I did that with my pups until they could sleep through the night dry.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

If you’re so positively against crating (still don’t understand why, it’s not cruel or lazy) would you try an x-pen? https://www.amazon.com/New-World-Pe...d=1563316164&s=gateway&sprefix=pupoy+e&sr=8-3

You can change the shape of it to be a long narrow dog run beside your bed. No crate, more freedom of movement, but he’s still close enough to whine if he needs to go potty.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Lick you? Lol. You might be waiting a long time. I have not found this breed to be a licking kind and that in itself is a major attraction for many of its fans.



Really? All 3 of mine try to slobber all over my face. They don't lick my hands (that annoying thing other breeds do) but they seek out my face even under a pillow and love to lick my face chin to hairline. It's kind of gross.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Really? All 3 of mine try to slobber all over my face. They don't lick my hands (that annoying thing other breeds do) but they seek out my face even under a pillow and love to lick my face chin to hairline. It's kind of gross.


Better you than me! Lol! But nope, no licking except for a rare quick swipe of a drier tongue on occasion from some, not at all by others.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sabi would lick my face if for some reason I laid on the floor, or if I needed reviving(mornings or the couple of times I got knocked out)
Bud was gross and would lick my face in spite of all efforts to avoid it.
Lex did run bys if you happened to be laying on the couch.
Not a fan of the licking thing. 

Shadow does this cute, shy little licking thing that I find completely endearing.

But yup, they have all done it.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Shepherd kisses are the best! Max and Luna give kisses. Especially when I have to wake the kids up for whatever reason. Max thinks he is helping me out - In a way he is. Topper our chihuahua does not give kisses but be will try to lick hands or blanket which gets stopped right away- stinky breath i think he likes to share.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’ll report how it goes tonight. I checked out the X-pen and it looks fine. I am pretty sure Tuff will do as well on a leash tethered but if there is a problem I’ll get an Xpen


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

If no crate, X-pen with a comfy dog bed, placed by your bed, seems like good alternative to me! He will have more freedom and will not have danger or discomfort from collar/leash getting tangled or wound around his legs, etc. For example, my dog always turns around 3 times before lying down - would that be hard if tethered? If the x-pen area is smallish, he won't potty in it...same principle as crate...

_(And hopefully he doesn't pant like my dog does...we couldn't stand him sleeping in our bedroom on the summer nights! That's not the kind of heavy breathing anybody wants in their bedroom, lol! We "persuaded" him to sleep out in the living room by leaving the ceiling fan on all night long out there...he likes laying where he can catch a breeze from the fan.)_


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My male shepherd, who slept on a dog bed in my room because he was my hearing ear dog, SNORED! This usually happens with the breeds that have pushed in muzzles, but Ranger was an exception. I can't hear the smoke alarm go off when I don't have my 'ears' on, but by golly, I could hear him snore!! :laugh2:

It wasn't loud enough to keep me awake, though, and I found it kind of comforting.

Oh, and I probably should mention, I got him as an adult rescue. He'd never lived in a house, but he was housebroken in less than a week!

Sometimes the adults are easier to train than the pups, because they have bigger bladders and better bladder control. Could be the same with your guy!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

We made it through the night w no problem. There was a small patch of wall (Sheetrock) where he must have gnawed for a bit so I’ve moved his spot so he can’t reach that place. Then we walked outside for a bit. Now he’s off leash and we’re on the patio. He’s been offered food. Last nights routine was different but I think he handled it well. He is big enough that he didn’t need to potty. In a bit we’ll go inside for the day. During the day now is when I’ll have to watch him. This is when I’ll need to anticipate when he needs to potty and take him out.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm glad you made it through the night. 
Everyone is harping about the danger to the dog from tethering, which I don't really see in this circumstance, but no one has mentioned the danger to you! A sleeping human with a dog tied to them is at risk. 
I was going to mention it yesterday but figured you seem sensible so I thought you would figure it out. If tethering is your plan going forward may I suggest to the bed frame or similar.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Yes, he was tethered to the bed, not me. He’s always calm and quiet and does not fight the leash. He was quiet through the night but did chew the wall very briefly or more damage would have been done. That little chewing must have been from the change and it made him a little nervous. I really regret changing his schedule any and hope this will work and be a long term solution. He’s always been a little unpredictable about eating. I put his food down but if he doesn’t eat I’ll take it up. I can tell when he wants to eat. 

I’m with him 24/7 so he is supervised. I know the big job now is to watch him and get him outside to potty. I’ll be patient as I allowed this bad habit and now I have to change it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh...and xpen would be great. I would not put a bed in there incase he chewed it. Obstruction surgery doesn't sound like much fun. But it might keep him contained and give him more room.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I just placed an order for an xpen


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> Yes, he was tethered to the bed, not me. He’s always calm and quiet and does not fight the leash. He was quiet through the night but did chew the wall very briefly or more damage would have been done. That little chewing must have been from the change and it made him a little nervous. I really regret changing his schedule any and hope this will work and be a long term solution. He’s always been a little unpredictable about eating. I put his food down but if he doesn’t eat I’ll take it up. I can tell when he wants to eat.
> 
> I’m with him 24/7 so he is supervised. I know the big job now is to watch him and get him outside to potty. I’ll be patient as I allowed this bad habit and now I have to change it.



You did, and you're doing well rectifying it. It's easier to teach an older puppy, and he is a puppy still because their bladders are bigger than the little farts. Just take him out when he eats, after he plays, when he wakes and anytime he might give the floor a sniff, they always have "tells". Even if you catch him in the act, a No, Ack, whatever will often stop them so you can get outside to finish the job. Don't punish the mistakes but praise the correct job to high heaven when he does it outside. I overslept this morning and Daisy still woke me when she needed to pee, she's just 9 weeks. 

We have few mistakes in the house, and when we do it's usually my fault for not being quicker when she telegraphs her need. She has a tiny little bladder, but she has my secret weapon the older dog, they go out together, Ellie pees on command and Daisy just does monkey see, monkey do. 

Really glad you ordered an X pen, they are wonderful tools. I don't have the room for one but if I did, I'd be using one, she was raised in a big one with her litter and always went to the grass to pee. Tuff's beautiful, I hope you have many happy years together.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I ordered the xpen but can’t really see how the gate works but I’m sure it’s simple. I have a space between my bed and the wall and I can make it fit, I think.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for ordering that. I think you and Tuff will be much happier with that solution. And he will be much safer in that pen so you can sleep easier at night.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Would you do anything to introduce the xpen? Until it gets here I’ll be using the tether in the same spot. When I build the xpen I’m sure he must walk through a gate. Should I leave it open for a while or lure him in with treats?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gowacky said:


> Would you do anything to introduce the xpen? Until it gets here I’ll be using the tether in the same spot. When I build the xpen I’m sure he must walk through a gate. Should I leave it open for a while or lure him in with treats?


Look up Crate Games that I suggested previously. SAme concept. Go in, be happy there, be calm.

I would suggest you feed him in a xpen. They don't typically mess where they eat. Give treats there. Always Always Always, give him a few pieces of kibble as a treat for going in.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I watched crate training and I know Tuff. I think this will be like the decision that he must wear a collar. We got past that. I think the pen will get here and be put in place and as I do now I take him on a leash and transfer him to the leash attached to the bed. The first time or 10 he will be attached to the leash inside the xpen. He’ll be nervous for a while but will lie down and relax quickly. In time I think just telling him it’s bedtime and he will go in the pen. I’ll show him the pen earlier and put treats in it.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I know a GSD is smart but can he be this smart? Tuff was unfortunately allowed to potty inside for a month. So I was prepared for a long effort to break that habit. But it’s just been a week since I’ve started trying to change that and he hasn’t gone inside all week!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This is great news!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

And he is resting much better now that I’m allowing him to sleep beside me.His appetite has returned and he’s more active. Those few nights outside were not restful for him. Last night I was awake at 4 and thought he might like to go out. We took a walk and he didn’t potty but walks nicely. He does not like to fight the leash so I just handle him gently. When he understands what I want he obliges. When he begins to mess with something he’s not supposed to I verbally correct. He will quit it but often runs to his safe place outside. Then he quickly returns. 

Just these last two weeks have been amazing progress for him. He’s perfect!


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> And he is resting much better now that I’m allowing him to sleep beside me.His appetite has returned and he’s more active. Those few nights outside were not restful for him. Last night I was awake at 4 and thought he might like to go out. We took a walk and he didn’t potty but walks nicely. He does not like to fight the leash so I just handle him gently. When he understands what I want he obliges. When he begins to mess with something he’s not supposed to I verbally correct. He will quit it but often runs to his safe place outside. Then he quickly returns.
> 
> Just these last two weeks have been amazing progress for him. He’s perfect!



German Shepherds are known for being intelligent, thinking dogs. I'm sure he's figuring out, that going out is where he needs to go pee/poop (potty, hate that word, feels like they are children) Use whatever command you plan on using to get him to think about doing his business outside, take him to where he's relieved himself in the past and wait a few minutes, I keep the little pup moving to engage her nose, and Ellie because she literally pees on command. It's great to have an older dog to help teach. The fact he's older means he CAN hold his bladder and bowels much longer than my 9 week puppy. 

You're doing great, keep it up and most of all, enjoy him.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m enjoying him a lot however his pooping outside was just a result of my controls and not a newfound resolution on his part. He was very unhappy those nights he camped out. He ate little and slept all day cause he wasn’t sleeping outside. Now after two nights where he’s been allowed to sleep tethered by my bed, he feels much better today and his appetite has returned. He’s much happier today and has lots more energy. The only bad news is that the streak has been broken and he has again pooped inside. I’ll just have to watch him closer. No I didn’t scold him as I found it .. didn’t catch him in the act.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

It’s harder since he was allowed to pee and poop in the house, but you can housebreak this dog pretty easily if you just start from square one, and treat him like a baby puppy. Take him out when he wakes up, after he eats, after he plays. I took my puppies out every 30 minutes to an hour when they were little. They just weren’t given the opportunity to go to the bathroom in the house. You have to watch him like a hawk. Yes, it’s a whole lot of running outside, but it pays off. 

It doesn’t matter if he wants to go out or not, just go out there with him anyway. If he pees or poops, then throw a mini party (“Good dog, Tuff!” in a happy voice.) 

I had a dog that wasn’t handled for the first 2 years of his life. If he could figure it out, then your guy can.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I was going to say just what dogfaeries said! 

We took our rescue out after eating, and for the first few weeks, about every 2 hours throughout the day. At night, he was in a crate so he held it in (he is a clean guy, like most dogs).
One strategy we used was to take him for a 20-30 min stroll around neighborhood at 10pm right before going to bed...that encouraged him to really empty everything out. 
(Ha ha, my husband and I became the unofficial "community watch" patrol)

2 hours grew rapidly to 3, then 4, then 5-6. 

Now he has a dog door so it's not so timed, but if the dogdoor is not available he will stand right in front of it as his "signal" that he needs Out.

They are intelligent and easy to train, I think your dog will understand quickly!
Try to keep an eye on him and keep him nearby...if you can catch him in the act once and scold him, he should really understand then.
And yes, treats and praise for pottying outside! 

Hopefully your inside smells will fade over time and become less attractive to him. 
He probably picked just a few favorite spots and you could dump some of the enzyme cleaner there.

It's been nice to hear his updates, he will become a "tame" dog before he knows it!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Another day as we learn each other. We played fetch and the flip toy a while this morning. He had a good night sleeping on the tether by my bed. Then I showed him the leash and told him it was time to train. Initially he broke for the safety of the backyard. I expressed disappointment like telling him he should let me put him on the leash. I continue to sit in the house at my island knowing in a short time he would come back. Twice more he ran but what surprised me was that then he came in, took his corner and this time when I approached him he let me attach the leash. We trained on it for a short time. He doesn’t like it but really avoids feeling it and tries very hard to walk with me. Then I praised him and gave him a piece of Velvetta and released him. A very good morning! 

But I’m thinking of a system that will help with the habit of pooping inside. I think about feeding him at bedtime. He can hold it I think but if he wakes me it’s okay. Then we go right outside when we wake.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

My experience (others may differ) is that dogs do better when fed twice daily. So I'd rethink feeding him only once, at night, if that's what you mean. You also might consider looking at what you feed as not all foods agree with all dogs which may be contributing to the problem. Also, I'd consider feeding him slightly smaller (still multiple) meals daily for a bit, at least while active house training is going on. If I'm feeding a new dog/puppy kibble, I always start by feeding somewhat less than the recommended package amounts until I get a good sense of how the pup/dog does on the food amounts --- adjusting up or down (or changing food altogether) to keep it in good condition.


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Our dogs are fed in the morning and right before we have our evening meal. We make sure they go outside just before we go to bed so there are a few hours between when they eat and going out for the last time at night.

I don't understand why you want to fed your dog at bedtime. What is your thinking there? It makes no sense to me to force him to hold it all night and have him be uncomfortable, just because he can. Why do that to your dog? That doesn't sound fair to the dog, in my opinion.

Whatever you do, you need to settle on a schedule and stick to it. Please don't keep changing things around. That's not going to help your dog with his house training.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

My thinking on feeding him at bedtime is to regulate his pooping habit. I want to take him out early and before he’s inside all day he will have the opportunity to poop outside.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I don’t like changing anything for him either. But I have to house train him. He slept outside for 2 nights and that was not a good plan. Now he sleeps beside my bed. If he’s fed in the morning that sets him up to poop inside. He’s not eating on a regular basis at this time. But he’s big enough that I don’t believe he would get uncomfortable holding it. I’m trying to establish habits that work. I’m not happy with where we are now, that’s for sure.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

This may have already been suggested but how about attaching/hanging a bell on the door and every single time you take him out to pee/poo you pause and jiggle the bell and then walk out. Let him do his business and walk back in but don’t bother touching the bell. Also don’t intentionally touch the bell when you are just going outside to play. Yes the bell will jingle on its own but you haven’t intentionally touched it.

Do this every single time for potty intention only. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) Tuff is going to get the connection between touching/jiggling the bell means going out to potty. Most get the connection quickly.

The first beauty of it, you are training it just by adding one extra jester without worrying about having to praise or treat so it becomes effortless and needs no analyzing. It’s what I call unintentional training and it happens all the time with a lot of other things because this breed is so observant, smart and has the ability to connect cause and effect. Also, at least with my guy, I have found when the unintentional training happens it seems that the behavior became more permanently imbedded because he used his own brain power to figure it out. But that’s just my own theory also.

The second beauty of it is that you are giving/showing Tuff a behavior that makes the need to potty very clear and just you opening the door so he can relieve himself will be the reward that he is asking for.

The bell will also ensure that you don’t miss an obvious or subtle signal that he has to go.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I like the idea of using the bell. Amazon probably has them! That’s not really where we are though as my door is propped open a bit so he can come and go at will. We’re still dealing with his reluctance to have the leash on. He still runs away at first but I patiently walk him down and he always reluctantly lets me leash him, Then we walk on the leash a little and he fights it little and tries to not hit the end of it. I’m calm whatever he does. After a few reps I praise him and let him go. 

He is unusually low drive and calm. He still only wants maybe 20 minutes of exercise for the day and sleeps the rest of the time. 

Because he’s so calm and sleeps so well I still think feeding him at bedtime and tethering him for the night will work. If he’s uncomfortable he certainly has a different bark to tell me.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Ordered Doggie Bells from Amazon


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

It’s probably because I’m grumpy from lack of sleep and an injured pup, but good lord, I’m surprised Tuff hasn’t completely detached and shut down all together by now. 

You’re giving him a ton of mixed messages! Yes, you can go in the house. No, you can’t go in the house. Now you can’t even be in the house at night because you still want to use the house as your personal bathroom. Yes, I won’t leash or collar you, and allow you to sit in your corner and decide how you want to act for the day. Okay, tossing you outside all night now, with 2 collars and 2 leashes always attached. Yes, I’ll leave the storm door open so you can come and go. No, I will not leave it open, you’ll have to come and ask me to open. He doesn’t struggle on the leash, and then he’s fighting the leash. Now he’s tied to your bed at night. If he was pooping a lot in the house during the day, he was probably being fed more than once a day. Now he only gets fed at night, because you don’t know or want to properly potty train him, so you fed him once at night, then tossed him outside afterwards so he didn’t go potty in your house. His age ranges are also all over the place. Is he 8 months now? 7 months? 6 months? 

I’m amazed he does anything for you with all the curveballs you are constantly throwing at him. He’s old enough to hold his bladder at night. Seiran has been doing it since she was 9 weeks. He’s old enough to know at least the basic commands, but you don’t seem to be doing any training with him, other than some brief leashing, which confuses me, and I’m not a dog. 

You refuse to crate, but are fine tying him to your bed at night. That sounds far more uncomfortable than having a safe den (crate) that he can get really comfortable in and also help him feel safe. 

One member suggests introducing something in, and bam, done. There is no introduction to Tuff, you just do it. MY head spins trying to read through your post. You seem to think he just knows what you want. He’s not a mind reader, he has no idea what you want unless you show him, verbally correct negative behavior with a firm no, and reward like crazy when he stops. Reward him like crazy if he shows a positive behavior, whether it’s you showing him that behavior, or him doing it on his own. But you’re just fixated on the leash thing. He struggles on it, then he doesn’t because he knows you don’t want him to do that. How, how does he know you don’t want him to do that? 

Your heart may be in the right place, but your heart is working against him. This breed needs structures, rules, jobs, direction, and lots and lots of training. He’s 8 months and the furthest you have gotten with him is sometimes not struggling with a leash, and sometimes struggling with it. Sometimes going potty inside, sometimes not. And then you have a battle of wills with him, which isn’t uncommon, but it is uncommon when you do it over something new and he has no idea what you’re expecting out of him. Because trust me pal, he DOES NOT intuit what your desires are. That takes months and months of training and creating a bond with your dog. 

Where are you located? Don’t have to tell me the city, but the state or country would be helpful. As much as you think he’s improved, he is nowhere near where he should be, even taking in consideration of his early life, and the month of crapping in your house and hiding in a corner. You need professional help via a trainer familiar with the needs and abilities of the breed. And you need to be trained as much as Tuff does. So stop putting money into amazon to order whatever product that was recommended via the forum, and use that money on a trainer. He doesn’t need a bell to ring, he needs firm, consistent guidance and training. The bell can wait.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

And his unusually low drive? That’s not his drive. That’s him being confused as all get out on what he’s supposed to be doing, and sleeping to avoid further stress or confusion. 

Or he hasn’t been properly vetted. I know you said you took him once, but gave no details. Has he properly been wormed? Aside from a chewable you picked up from a tractor supply store? Have you kept up on his shots? Seiran is 5 months old, and her puppy shots are done, and she will be having the rabies shot and she’s done. Then we will titter every year to see whether she needs any annual boosters. I’m still not convinced he has been vetted, and living in the conditions he lived in both at the breeders, and with you, I would bet my big toe his “unusually” low drive is actually more about a worm load, in conjunction with the lack of structure given, than any lack of drive.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Wow, bet you feel better now having let that all out. 

But you know more than me and I live in the high plains of Texas, however, there will be no professional trainer so hang in there and help for Tuff’s sake, not mine.

I’ll address as many issues as I can now. First, he has been to Haskell Vetenary. He is up to date and on schedule for all vaccinations and we stopped his castration plan.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

He doesn’t take refuge in his corner and never has. His ears stay up, he’s plugged in’ I must not be training as rapidly as you think I should. He was born mid Jan 19 so he’s just six months old and was wild the first 4 months.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m guilty of the house potty issue but now I have to deal with it. 

You don’t agree but he sleeps very comfortably on the tether. I like the idea of feeding him at bedtime cause he will eliminate in the morning. I’m setting him up to not need to go inside.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

And his reluctance to allow me to attach the leash. Now he’s pulling a 15’ cord again as I can step on it and when he feels that he lets me do some leash training. And today I added sit command. I also used a rake on him today and I was gentle and he may have even liked it. Not sure but it sure adds time handling him.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> I don’t like changing anything for him either. But I have to house train him. He slept outside for 2 nights and that was not a good plan. Now he sleeps beside my bed. If he’s fed in the morning that sets him up to poop inside. He’s not eating on a regular basis at this time. But he’s big enough that I don’t believe he would get uncomfortable holding it. I’m trying to establish habits that work. I’m not happy with where we are now, that’s for sure.


Gowacky, just so you know, it usually takes a LOT longer than 12 hours for food to pass through a dog's digestive system! I'm saying this because it sounds like you are trying to set him up to poop in the morning. (I may not be interpreting this just right, my apologies if I'm wrong.)

Also, the act of eating may trigger the need to eliminate. That's why we take puppies outside very shortly after they finish their meals. If that's what you meant, fine, yeah, that works!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

You twist some things. I think it’s common for him to pick a spot. He lays there. Why must you characterize it as cowering there?


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I disagree that you are setting him up to go in the morning. You are setting him up so you don't have to do your job and keep him from going inside the house. The responsibility is yours, not his.

If you just watch him while he is inside, you will be able to see when he needs to go out. It's easy, but it takes some commitment on your part. You can't just ignore him all day and expect him to house train himself. He will only learn if you will help him understand what you want of him. Just feeding him and leaving him be will not teach him anything.

In my opinion and that of many people here, a young dog should be fed twice a day, not once. Actually most people here feed their dogs twice a day for their entire lives. 

I don't understand why you are so adverse to doing these things that have repeatedly been said here. It seems you really don't want the help that people are trying so hard to give you.

Sorry if this seems harsh. I'm suppose I'm getting a bit frustrated and I'll bow out now.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Finally, I’m telling you after reading about so many GSDS through this forum, he is just unusually calm. I equate that to low drive. That first month he was so wild. I allowed him to just get acquainted with his new home. He chose to sleep A LOT!


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Gowacky said:


> My thinking on feeding him at bedtime is to regulate his pooping habit. I want to take him out early and before he’s inside all day he will have the opportunity to poop outside.


Consider rethinking what your goal is and how well your apparent strategy is going to help you achieve that goal. In this specific instance, your goal is to house train the dog (i.e., potty outside). IME, feeding him only once daily works directly _against _that goal, thereby prolonging the training and resulting in more 'accidents.' By feeding only one meal daily, you're loading up his belly thereby virtually _guaranteeing _his discomfort and subsequent need to relieve himself sooner rather than later. Whatever your logic (which, frankly, escapes me), your approach is counter to the stated goal. 

Here's what's worked well for me over the years:

Set Him Up for Success #1. Buy a good enzyme based cleaner (e.g., Nature's Miracle) and clean your floors and rugs thoroughly. By thoroughly, I mean clean ALL flooring surfaces and rugs --- not just where he went. You or he may have walked through the accidents and left scent in all sorts of places and you want to remove them because those lingering scents will bring him back to that spot. The next day, do it again. You've got to remove ALL traces of previous accidents. Once around simply won't do it. Then, make sure that you ALWAYS have a bottle on hand. Stuff happens...

Set him up for Success #2. Buy and use a crate as others have suggested; tethering him to your bed isn't likely to be successful in the short or long run IMO. Right now, the message he's getting is, "At night, you're tied to the bed." The message he _should be_ getting is, "Dogs don't pee/poop in the house." Unless you are_ actively supervising_ him (e.g., training or playing), put him in the crate. Make the crate an enjoyable experience for him, but use it daily for, at least, the next several months. 

Set Him Up for Success #3. Feed him _at least _twice daily, approx. 12 hours apart. Take him outside to relieve himself 5-10 minutes after each meal and keep him outside 20 minutes or so until he at least pees. Praise him wildly when he does ("Yes! Good pee/poop! Good boy!). Rinse and repeat as required. 

Set Him Up for Success #4. Take him out to relieve himself _multiple _times daily --- under your direct supervision. Don't just turn him out by himself. If going out coincides with walks or training sessions, set aside the first 10-15 minutes as potty time. Again, praise him wildly when he goes (see above). Then proceed with walks and/or training sessions, as planned. If you can't get him out to relieve himself multiple times daily, hire someone to do it for you.

Set Him Up for Success #5. Puppies _need _structure and absolute consistency. Right now it doesn't seem that he's getting either; so that's on you. "Loving" a dog sounds nice and so does "bonding." Problem is, "loving" won't get the dog trained --- nor bonded to you, come to that. Structure and consistency lays the foundation for the relationship you say you want. So, that's the direction you want to take. The rest will come in time as your training skills deepen.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I did a bit of research and you are indeed right that it takes several hours for food to be totally eliminated from a dog. 

However, from observation it is common for them to poop in a couple of hours or less.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Ali, I appreciate the time you gave me. Let’s see if you will go for partial compliance?

Regarding cleaning the house I have a stained slab floor, no rugs, no carpet. From the beginning I’ve got a heavy duty mop setup and I’m using lots of white vinegar. I mop every morning!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m not going with the crate and he sleeps very well tethered.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

However, I also don’t particularly like the idea of not feeding him twice a day. So, I’ll drop the once a day feeding thought.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

This has just become a case of having an “askhole” posting for advice, and taking none of it, and doing whatever the heck he wants anyway, then posting that and asking what we think. Well, I told you what I think, and instead of taking constructive criticism (many many many members have provided for you), you go instantly into denial mode. Your dog is not trained. Pure and simple. And what you’re doing isn’t working, plain and simple. Stop asking for advice that you’re not going to take. 

You aren’t doing the best for Tuff, you’re doing what’s easiest for YOU. Denial is a cruel crutch to lean on. I’m sure Tuff will teach YOU that when he gets tired of being mishandled, mislead, and not trained, and eventually goes after you. Because THAT is what you are setting you AND him up for.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stepping in here again. Tuff sounds like he is making progress. I will give you my best advice based on your situation and your wants and needs. 
At his age it is healthier and better for his development to feed him two or even three times a day. Feed him wait about 30 minutes as he is older and then take him outside and play with him until he relieves himself. High praise for the desired behavior. 
You may also find that a brisk walk produces results.
I see no issue with tethering him at night, especially as he has proven to be a thinker rather then a fighter. When you wake up in the morning either take him outside or put him outside right away. I used to often kick the dogs out and then take my coffee and join them for a few minutes. 
I believe you ordered an x pen? The panels are also useful individually for blocking doorways and keeping the dog in an area you can watch.

Keep up the good work, you will get there. Some recent pictures of Tuff would be great.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Gowacky said:


> Finally, I’m telling you after reading about so many GSDS through this forum, he is just unusually calm. I equate that to low drive. That first month he was so wild. I allowed him to just get acquainted with his new home. He chose to sleep A LOT!


I've always found this forum to be extremely educational and would encourage you (heck, everybody) to keep reading. That said, no amount of reading is the same as "eyes and hands on the dog." Experience, in other words; experience with GSDs, in particular, and experience with dogs more generally. Both are what make for good owners and trainers. I say all of this because so many of your posts strike me as someone who may have done a lot of reading, but doesn't have a lot of actual experience in training and/or living with dogs.

For example, if someone tells me their 5-6 month old puppy (a GSD especially) is "unusually calm," I don't think low drives immediately. He could well have low drives, but given what you've described, that would NOT be my immediate assumption. _Given what you've described thus far and how you described it,_ I'd immediately think (a) rule out physical issues (e.g., injury, a parasite load, and/or some disease process), (b) examine the feeding regimen (e.g., what's being fed [is it good or crap, especially for a puppy], how much and how often, and (c) consider confusion and/or depression, following adoption. 

Try focussing on those possibilities rather than a naive assumption of low drives.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> Ali, I appreciate the time you gave me. Let’s see if you will go for partial compliance?
> 
> Regarding cleaning the house I have a stained slab floor, no rugs, no carpet. From the beginning I’ve got a heavy duty mop setup and I’m using lots of white vinegar. I mop every morning!


This right here. Ali gave you clear cut direction on where to head with training, and how to accomplish that, and you take NONE of the advice and do whatever you want anyway. It’s neglect, plain and simple. You are neglecting his needs to satisfy whatever twisted ideas you have on what is comfortable for a dog.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The advise that's been given on house training is pretty much what I would have offered until my most recent puppy. I thought I had house training down. 



Let's start with "ring the bell" - previous pup - show her the bell, ring it - I think just once - her response: "Got it. Ring bell, door opens." most recent pup - show bell, ring it open door go out multiple times - her response "Huh?"


Four previous pups over the years - House breaking is easy, in some instances remarkably so. What are people bitching about? 



This pup - It took a good year YEAR! to get it figured out. There were many false successes... (aka times when I was sure we had it and then Oh NO! we didn't have it.)


So far as eating & excreting scheduling ---- My picky eater often prefers to eat at night - both servings and often a third. Usually after we have done our last outing for the day (right before I go to bed). This dog is very good about cluing me in if she needs to go out --- I haven't caught that there's an issue of needing to defecate during the night. I know it is different with puppies. 



I do think having the door propped open is not conducive to house training but... after the last pup, who am I to know squat about this?


I would, if I were the OP, take a second or third read about the responses. During the first read, I can find myself getting defensive and missing valid points. It might be helpful to let them sit for a while and then reconsider what's been offered.


But this thread has certainly morphed from "Can't touch the dog" into much more.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jchrest, with all due respect, I think you are being too hard on the OP. 

You had a really rough night, with your sister's drunken behaviour causing one of your dogs to be seriously injured. Maybe just step back and breathe for a bit, okay?

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar in this world.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> Jchrest, with all due respect, I think you are being too hard on the OP.
> 
> You had a really rough night, with your sister's drunken behaviour causing one of your dogs to be seriously injured. Maybe just step back and breathe for a bit, okay?
> 
> You catch more flies with honey than vinegar in this world.


You’re probably right, I am exhausted and being tough on the OP. But only because this has been going on for so long. He ignores the advice, and focuses on the praise. He does whatever he wants (which is his right, it’s his dog) and expects us to all follow along and encourage behavior that most members wouldn’t condone. I’m quite surprised at how many people are handling him with kid gloves. I’ve seen members ripped to shreds for less than this. If there was a way to hide this thread from popping up, I would be more than happy to disappear. It’s my lack of self control that keeps me coming back. I’m watching a train wreck right before my eyes.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sabis Mom, you’re the best. Some are yelling ‘get a rope and string him up!’

I think I’m doing okay. Lots of things were never implemented on Tuff, some of my bad ideas were stopped before Tuff had to endure them. I’m resuming 2 times a day feeding. I can watch him and correct should he start to potty inside. 

I don’t think he has to be on a leash and praised to know he must potty outside. All he has to know regarding what I expect is to not potty inside!


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Gowacky said:


> Ali, I appreciate the time you gave me. Let’s see if you will go for partial compliance?
> 
> Regarding cleaning the house I have a stained slab floor, no rugs, no carpet. From the beginning I’ve got a heavy duty mop setup and I’m using lots of white vinegar. I mop every morning!


Not sure if this is in response to my post or not, but I'm answering anyway.  

No, white vinegar won't cut it. Use an enzyme based cleaner. Full stop. 

Sorry to say this, but "partial compliance" won't cut it for me either. Frankly, in situations like this, I don't distinguish between "partial compliance" and noncompliance because I don't think there _is _a meaningful difference --- particularly when the well-being of a sentient creature is at stake (i.e., your puppy).

My values to be sure, but I just don't think you're doing right by this puppy. I don't doubt that your _intention _is just the opposite, but the difference between your stated intention and the actions you describe appears large and _growing_. That concerns me. 

You've gotten excellent (and repeated!) advice from multiple, highly experienced people. I can't say that I've been impressed or reassured by your responsiveness thus far. That concerns me too.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Gowacy, never underestimate the power of praise/positive reinforcement! It's what we base our training on! 

Works well with people, too! :laugh2:

Edit: Aly, as has been mentioned previously NOTHING is going to get the smell out of a concrete slab floor, because the concrete is porous. Okay, an enzyme cleaner is probably better than vinegar, but still not enough to completely get rid of the smell, given how powerful a dog's sense of smell is.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Gowacy, never underestimate the power of praise/positive reinforcement! It's what we base our training on!
> 
> Works well with people, too! :laugh2:


So does direct feedback...


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Think of all the good that has happened to Tuff due to input from forum members. Tuff was 6 months old yesterday. Just two weeks ago he got a collar attached and his vet visit. A neutering was avoided. He’ll continue being fed twice daily. 

I really hate anytime I feel I’m not being consistent with him. And remember that I’ve accepted and followed much good advice. The many crate fans will not be satisfied though.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

@Sunsilver said, "Aly, as has been mentioned previously NOTHING is going to get the smell out of a concrete slab floor, because the concrete is porous. Okay, an enzyme cleaner is probably better than vinegar, but still not enough to completely get rid of the smell, given how powerful a dog's sense of smell is."

I take your point, but it's better than vinegar.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

One last question, and then I’m going to take a long relaxing nap.

Is your flooring sealed? I had the two mother in law quarters in CA done with the stained concrete. It floods there a lot, and I was tired of replacing flooring all the time. Plus it makes mud clean up much easier! After the acid stain was done, it was then sealed. The sealant prevents any odors or spills from leaching into my the concrete. So if his concrete IS sealed, it’s actually easier to get smells out than it would be on tile, carpet, wood, or laminate.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> Sabis Mom, you’re the best. Some are yelling ‘get a rope and string him up!’
> 
> I think I’m doing okay. Lots of things were never implemented on Tuff, some of my bad ideas were stopped before Tuff had to endure them. I’m resuming 2 times a day feeding. I can watch him and correct should he start to potty inside.
> 
> I don’t think he has to be on a leash and praised to know he must potty outside. All he has to know regarding what I expect is to not potty inside!


It's not that he must be on leash and praised, it's that it will work faster and strengthen the bond if you give him clear and well defined rules. Especially in his case because we changed the rules mid game.
As I said, I often booted the dogs outside, and then joined them with my coffee. I still praise Shadow when she goes, mostly because it thrills her to get praise and I like watching her wiggle.:laugh2:

I will say, and I mean NO offense, I haven't pushed tethering because we are dealing with a young, strong dog and a senior person of unknown condition. I think some posters need to bear that in mind. Even in the best of shape a fall, bump or mishap could be serious for someone your age and I am keeping THAT to the fore as I try and give advice. Also keeping in mind that you said you live alone. I am choosing to offer, as I know it, the path of least resistance that will get you where you want to go.

I think you are doing just fine and Tuff is a good boy.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

A naive assumption of low drive huh? Naive? He’s had a full vet check and he’s been declared healthy and he acts and looks healthy. He can jump 6’ chasing the flip toy. His food was chosen through the assistance of dog food advisor.com. It’s made by Diamond and scored well. I’m not naive and he’s healthy... he is just unusually calm and I take that as an indication of good breeding. I’m certainly glad he’s not one of these weak hip high energy destructive results of over breeding. He’s well bred, low drive.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Gowacky said:


> A naive assumption of low drive huh? Naive? He’s had a full vet check and he’s been declared healthy and he acts and looks healthy. He can jump 6’ chasing the flip toy. His food was chosen through the assistance of dog food advisor.com. It’s made by Diamond and scored well. I’m not naive and he’s healthy... he is just unusually calm and I take that as an indication of good breeding. I’m certainly glad he’s not one of these weak hip high energy destructive results of over breeding. He’s well bred, low drive.


Go back and read what you posted. You based your assertion of "low drives" on what you read here and apparently on that basis alone. You did not provide any other bases for that assumption and still haven't done so. I commented on the process by which you apparently reached that conclusion vs. the process I would have followed. 

Further, I said that the _assumption _was naive, not you. Don't get your panties in twist, 'naive' is a simply a descriptor.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sabits Mom, thank you! You’re right in all regards. I’m well and capable today but accidents happen. I didn’t quite follow you regarding that. 

Right now Tuff has eaten a large meal and he’s chosen the spot where he sleeps at night to take a nap. I’m posted on a couch that gives me full surveillance of his potty area. The back door is cracked which gives him access to outside. When he wakes I expect him to go outside and yes I’ll monitor and give high value treats.

I prefer to handle him off leash and he prefers it too. I just don’t have his obedience even close to being able to do everything off leash.

Bear in mind I live outside the city limits on an acre. I’m anxious to be able to exercise him off leash. I’m thinking of trying it with him trailing a 15’ length of light rope.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

One vet check and he’s deemed healthy. Did they ask you to bring in a stool sample, and did you? Or did they take a fecal sample themselves. One vet visit doesn’t ensure health. One worming kills the adults, doesn’t kill the eggs, so it has to be done on a regular basis until you get parasite free stools. Free of eggs, larvae, and adults. Dogs with a worm load (especially an untreated one), are often low energy and lethargic. 

I am keeping his age in the forefront of my mind also. A full grown, untrained adult is likely to injure a 74yr old, intentionally or not. Many of us have offered positive information that is thrown out the window. What irks me is that he has been given so much valuable and solid advice, and continues to be in denial about what it’s going to look like when Tuff is fully grown. He’s not doing anything to setup Tuff for success that will make life easier for a senior. He is setting Tuff up to be a wild card, and could potentially harm an elderly man. 

If he was 17 instead of 74, the board would be chanting “rehome, rehome, rehome.” Well, now we have the same situation, but with an elderly man that can’t handle the dog he purchased. 

What is wrong about saying enough progress hasn’t been made in the months he’s owned this dog. What’s wrong about saying he needs to seek out an actual trainer rather than reading or watching videos? What is wrong with giving potty training advice to no avail. I’m not seeing other members in the wrong here. 

OP, what’s your routine from morning to night with Tuff? That could provide a wealth of information that could lead to more specific advice. Hoping you would heed that advice that is. 

The only positive I’ve seen come into play is that the dog is not using the house for the bathroom, not being neutered, and not being left outside alone. I find it hard to believe that given a different age, the OP would be treated much differently for all the mistakes, and the fact that he just continues doing what he thinks is best, even though it goes against advice from some very experienced members.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> ...
> I will say, and I mean NO offense, I haven't pushed tethering because we are dealing with a young, strong dog and a senior person of unknown condition...


Ahhh. I'd missed that or forgotten it. Thanks for pointing that out, @Sabis mom.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Look guys, when I brought Sabi home at just 7 weeks she was SO quiet that I kept taking her back to the vet because after countless pups through my house I was convinced she must be critically ill. My good fortune to have a vet that did not abuse my trust. 
She was perfectly healthy, just a quiet and thoughtful pup that beyond the occasional bouts of play liked to sit and observe. She was much the same all her life and would happily nap when not working or following me around. She spent countless hours sitting on the front steps surveying her kingdom. She was 12 years and 9 months when I put her down.
Morri at 6 months or so was almost exactly the same. She came from a puppy mill we cleaned out. She had never been handled, we had to cut her out of her cage. Again perfect health. She is like that to this day.
The demon spawn pup that I wore gloves around had a brother who liked to sit on top of Sabi and watch, just watch, all the chaos around him. At last report his favorite pastime was sitting on the picnic table watching the kids play.
Whether anyone has experienced it or not, some of these dogs are just quiet. It happens. Tuff is not by all accounts a wild, rodeo kind of guy. He has offered no sign of aggression and while I believe that part of his behavior is uncertainty, that will resolve. All in all he sounds like a solid, good natured, pet type dog.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> One vet check and he’s deemed healthy. Did they ask you to bring in a stool sample, and did you? Or did they take a fecal sample themselves. One vet visit doesn’t ensure health. One worming kills the adults, doesn’t kill the eggs, so it has to be done on a regular basis until you get parasite free stools. Free of eggs, larvae, and adults. Dogs with a worm load (especially an untreated one), are often low energy and lethargic.
> 
> *I am keeping his age in the forefront of my mind also. A full grown, untrained adult is likely to injure a 74yr old, intentionally or not. Many of us have offered positive information that is thrown out the window. What irks me is that he has been given so much valuable and solid advice, and continues to be in denial about what it’s going to look like when Tuff is fully grown. He’s not doing anything to setup Tuff for success that will make life easier for a senior. He is setting Tuff up to be a wild card, and could potentially harm an elderly man.
> *
> ...



I'm 55 and partially sighted with an almost blind service dog. I also fall and break bones rather often due to my age, my sex, and a neurological condition. I also have a new puppy in the house. 

I'm not making any of these mistakes, and I fail to see how anyone can be so obtuse as to not see the harm you OP are doing with your waffling.
You avoided neutering him?


Heck, that should be his first thing. 

Don't care if he's the best bred dog in the world, a 74 year old doesn't need an untrained un-neutered MALE dog, especially if you cannot train him, and you obviously are unwilling or unable to. He isn't house trained, and in no time he'll be lifting his leg to pee all over your house, tethered or not. 

READ, and DO. Don't argue. These people on this forum know their stuff.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> I'm 55 and partially sighted with an almost blind service dog. I also fall and break bones rather often due to my age, my sex, and a neurological condition. I also have a new puppy in the house.
> 
> I'm not making any of these mistakes, and I fail to see how anyone can be so obtuse as to not see the harm you OP are doing with your waffling.
> You avoided neutering him?
> ...


What??


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

cvamoca, you DO NOT neuter a 5 month old dog! New findings have shown it greatly increases the risk of certain health problems. I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread, if you want to wade your way through all the posts... :rolleyes2:

Or maybe not...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP, when you tether your dog at night, what does he sleep on? Concrete?

German Shepherds are a working dog, bred to have strong drives and plenty of energy so that they may work all day. Well bred German Shepherds are also known for situational awareness and alertness. That doesn't mean that all German Shepherds will be like this but they should fall into a range similar to this.

Since you are in Texas, I assume that it is very hot, sunny and humid where you are. Maybe I missed pictures posted of your pup, but is he a coatie? Your puppy may be laying around simply because he is hot. 

At his age, he is probably going through a massive growth spurt. Dogs do most of this growing while they sleep. This can be another reason for him lacking energy especially if he is big boned or going to be a big dog.

As someone else already mentioned, I suspect much of his behavior stems from deriving from pet lines. How far this dog can go depends a lot on his genetic capabilities as well as what OP actually expects from their dog.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> cvamoca, you DO NOT neuter a 5 month old dog! New findings have shown it greatly increases the risk of certain health problems. I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread, if you want to wade your way through all the posts... :rolleyes2:
> 
> Or maybe not...


Yes, I do know that. From my own ownership of German Shepherds, I wait till they are over a year, closer to 18 months.
Just in this case...man he's in for a world of trouble when that boy's hormones kick in.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> What??



What, what, Sabis Mom? He's not listening to anything you guys have said. No, you shouldn't neuter a young dog, but if you have zero control over them now--how bad will it be later when he's hormonal? (I mean Tuff and OP, not you) An elderly man and an intact untrained male dog, isn't my first choice.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Just a final comment on and illustration of crating. As previous posters have repeatedly noted, dogs are den animals. Dens or den equivalents (such as crates) are relaxing and enjoyable to them. Not to you, perhaps OP, _but to the dog._ Properly introduced and reinforced (both of which are insanely easy to do), most dogs _love _and voluntarily use crates. Further, if the owner doesn't provide a satisfactory den (i.e., crate), the dog may invent one of her own...


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> What, what, Sabis Mom? He's not listening to anything you guys have said. No, you shouldn't neuter a young dog, but if you have zero control over them now--how bad will it be later when he's hormonal? (I mean Tuff and OP, not you) An elderly man and an intact untrained male dog, isn't my first choice.


Male, female whatever. Where is this idea that at some mystical age hormones will turn dogs into demons coming from? Neutering does not fix behavior, training does. 
This dog has given no indication that he is anything other then a big ol' oaf. He has not fought, growled or even really protested anything. Neutered dogs show increased aggressive behavior, especially when done young. 
Tuff is doing fine and so is his owner. We are working through things and sorting out problems as we go.
I suspect we may get a curve ball or two, and the mature adult owner of the dog will handle it as he has everything else.
Go back and read the whole thread. Tuff was scheduled to be neutered, we offered some advice as to why that was a bad idea and that advice was put with some research and the appointment was cancelled.
Now I'm gonna send my really outspoken and opinionated 25 year old step daughter over to tell you how to run your life. Let me know how you feel about that.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sabits Mom ... you’re the best! Don’t you get a hoot out of some of these comments? 
But despite those who won’t believe it Tuff has had a very good day. And I’m keeping a closer eye on him. 
Tuff does have a heavy coat and chooses to sleep on the cool concrete. As he has been in the habit lately of avoiding me when I want to put a leash on him I reattached the long line. This stopped him immediately and we’ve had two nice walks on the long line. I’m watching his potty area inside so he has not had a mistake. He’s quiet well mannered and smart.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Here’s a picture of the ‘animal of interest’


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

He is such a handsome boy!

If you want to try a new thing with him? Call his name, and when he looks at you toss him a small, yummy treat. Once he reliably looks at you toss the treats progressively closer. He should eventually come to you when you say his name. You can fade the treats out once he comes to you reliably.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thanks! He’ll come to me and eat from my hand. I just don’t think I could get absolute obedience to come if we were outside the fenced area and something got his attention. But he’s better every day.

And thank you so much for your support as well as suggestions.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Male, female whatever. Where is this idea that at some mystical age hormones will turn dogs into demons coming from? Neutering does not fix behavior, training does.
> This dog has given no indication that he is anything other then a big ol' oaf. He has not fought, growled or even really protested anything. Neutered dogs show increased aggressive behavior, especially when done young.
> Tuff is doing fine and so is his owner. We are working through things and sorting out problems as we go.
> I suspect we may get a curve ball or two, and the mature adult owner of the dog will handle it as he has everything else.
> ...




*Yeah, I don't think so. 
*
*I've read every single word of this entire thread daily since it started. You do your thing, he can do his thing. Don't send me your kid. 
*
*Enjoy your day.*
*Amoca*


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> [/B]
> 
> *Yeah, I don't think so.
> *
> ...


Lol. But you missed the neuter part?


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Lol. But you missed the neuter part?


 Sabi, no I didn't miss it. I'm just not sure in this case it might not be the lesser of 2 evils. I'm also NOT saying I'm right. 

We are all entitled to our opinions. I know you all talked him out of neutering. I'm just not sure with a non house trained, semi "feral-ish" dog, whether neutering a destined to always be house pet might not be the lesser of the 2 evils. 

My breeder insisted in writing, of our older dog being spayed at 6 months. I held out for 2 heats, a bit over a year before she would grant my my CKC papers.


Also, I won't engage in this thread anymore, so as not to cause any more disagreement. Wasn't my intent to cause problems, you just quoted me super-fast, and I hadn't thought everything out before I finished that post.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I find it rather interesting that the thread right under this one is about eating stones and people wanting to (jokingly) start a pool on how long it’s going to take the pup to dig up the dirt and grass plugs, and the OP is being nailed for not supervising her dog, but this thread, the OP is being given positive feedback and encouragement, when he literally doesn’t take a word of advice, and has yet to answer the many many questions members have asked him. Double standards are so fun.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> Sabi, no I didn't miss it. I'm just not sure in this case it might not be the lesser of 2 evils. I'm also NOT saying I'm right.
> 
> We are all entitled to our opinions. I know you all talked him out of neutering. I'm just not sure with a non house trained, semi "feral-ish" dog, whether neutering a destined to always be house pet might not be the lesser of the 2 evils.
> 
> ...


We are all entitle to our opinions of course. All opinions are valuable and other members catch me saying stuff all the time. 
I genuinely believe that based on what I know of Tuff and his owner, from this thread and private conversations, that we are in good shape with a surprisingly solid and level headed dog and a capable owner who is committed to handling any issues that arise.
I have handled countless BYB and unknown origin dogs and sometimes you just really do hit solid gold. All arrows are pointing to Tuff being pretty awesome.
Time will tell, but I would really like to keep his owner engaged with us so that if issues start to pop up we may be able to head them off.
What I am reading in text and the dogs expression is showing me a wary but calm dog who is too smart to fight and smart enough to express himself and manipulate a person. He thinks things through and masters new situations easily. He enjoys the company of his person and will seek to stay near.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sometimes we tend to get way too emotionally involved and frustrated with the way a thread evolves.If anyone finds themselves in this dilemma please skip the thread and move on.Sniping back and forth only results in closed threads and suspensions.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

dogma13 said:


> Sometimes we tend to get way too emotionally involved and frustrated with the way a thread evolves.If anyone finds themselves in this dilemma please skip the thread and move on.Sniping back and forth only results in closed threads and suspensions.



I was out of line, couldn't edit, and know it. Apologies to all but mostly to the OP. It's super humid here and we're all on our last nerve. 

Sometimes I don't type things in a diplomatically correct way, again not meaning to be unkind--I just suck at that skill. People can't read inflection. 

My apologies to all.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cvamoca said:


> I was out of line, couldn't edit, and know it. Apologies to all but mostly to the OP. It's super humid here and we're all on our last nerve.
> 
> Sometimes I don't type things in a diplomatically correct way, again not meaning to be unkind--I just suck at that skill. People can't read inflection.
> 
> My apologies to all.


It's stupid hot and humid here as well. Did you say you are on the east coast? Where at?

I cannot count the number of people on here that I have offended. Apparently my broken filter is also broken in print! Lol. Whatever I think just falls out.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> cvamoca said:
> 
> 
> > I was out of line, couldn't edit, and know it. Apologies to all but mostly to the OP. It's super humid here and we're all on our last nerve.
> ...


Same. Filter? What filter? I’m glad you’re working with him Sabs, and I hope he is heeding your advice at least. 

I’ll do my best to NOT open this thread again, because I just get worked up every single time I read it. And my advice is clearly not heeded or wanted.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gowacky said:


> Thanks! He’ll come to me and eat from my hand. I just don’t think I could get absolute obedience to come if we were outside the fenced area and something got his attention. But he’s better every day.
> 
> And thank you so much for your support as well as suggestions.


Don't be too static. Move around a little bit so he'll follow to get the food. Show him a little more effort will lead to reward. As far as neutering, you can't remove testosterone from a male and not change something. The difference between a 6mo old, 1 year old, 2-4 year old as they mature can be pretty dramatic and at least some of that is dependent on hormones. I know there's a tendency sometimes to think of neutering as some kind of cure all for behavior that it isn't, but it does alter a dog in some way. Maybe good, maybe not. Maybe not even detectable if you don't try and see.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff has began another day. He slept well and handled perfectly on our walk. However he has yet to potty for me when on the leash. But he eats good and as I now take my position to be able to watch him I can catch him should he want to potty inside. He never eats like he’s hungry but always lets it sit a while. I don’t leave it down for too long. 

It would seem the stress of following this thread is not healthy for some of you. If you can’t participate without resorting to ugly behavior maybe you should not read it. For those who will help I welcome your comments.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Let’s take this is smaller steps. I want to be consistent and predictable for Tuff but his behavior confuses me. He slept good and we took a walk. He’s been offered food but now he’s in one of his spots and he’s asleep. For him to sleep another couple of hours is likely. For me to monitor the potty issue I need to stay where I can watch him. It’s early morning and he doesn’t belong in a crate now and of course I don’t own one. I can’t leave him unsupervised in the house. I can either stay with him and monitor him or put him outside. There are things I need to do so I suppose it’s outside for him.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

July 21


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

July 21


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Very handsome fellow! I'm curious, do you know if the parents were AKC registered?


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

He looks pretty happy and healthy. I'd be careful with that double tether. It could become tangles and be a trap. Does your community have tethering laws? They've added time limits where I live that got a number of people upset. As rural communities, that had dogs living outdoors, changes to urban / suburban, ideas on how to treat dogs changes and the laws have changed too. Make sure you are in compliance.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Yes they are AKC registered and I was given a paper showing his sire and dam.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Thanks!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

We have no laws here regarding leashes or other. I live in the country.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

We make progress but in small steps. I use the long line because he obeys much quicker. But he’s much better at coming when called. And a first this morning, I was able to call him inside while holding the door open. Previously he would not come in unless I just cracked the door and disappeared. But leaving the door cracked must end. I’m letting cool air out and flies in. Now he’s eaten and he’s back in his spot resting. I’ll just monitor him closely and take him for a walk occasionally. He hasn’t pooped inside but I haven’t had an opportunity to praise him for going outside either.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I think of a tether meaning he’s tied to something. I think of attaching a long line as a bit different than tethering as it just gives me easier control as he still avoids being caught although he completely relaxes when he is.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

That is not a proper tether, it’s a thin rope tied to a climbers snap link. Is the other end attached to anything, or is he just dragging around a rope? 

Is there plenty of fresh water out for him? You’re in Texas where it is hot and humid, which is a climate that can easily and quickly give a dog, let alone a puppy, heat stroke. Water left overnight is a breeding ground for pesky mosquitos, and if your dog ingests the water, it leads to heart worms. Did the vet give you the monthly chewables to prevent heart worm? Please make sure you dump any water from the previous day and give him fresh water to drink and play in daily. 

Are you willing to lose your dog entirely rather than crate train him so he can be in a climate controlled home, napping peacefully? What happens if you need to go somewhere during the hottest part of the day? You leave him outside? Does he at least have a dog house or somewhere safe he can get to when outside?

I’ll tell you the same thing I told my son when he got a puppy. The walk isn’t over until the puppy has pooped and peed. Once he started implementing that, surprise, no more morning messes to clean up, and he didn’t need to boot his puppy outside. He is in NE FL with weather similar to yours. I myself lived there for 11 years, and have seen many people and pets affected negatively during the summer months when the humidity levels are through the roof.

You’re saying small steps, is the small step just getting him to walk with you? 

And sorry, but you are on a public forum, and asked for advice. That doesn’t mean you get to chose which type of advice you get. That means you have to be ready for people giving it to you straight as well as the only ones you respond to, which is sugar coating everything. It honestly feels like you’re baiting or taunting with the things you post and say, so don’t be surprised when someone takes the bait.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’m not baiting you JC. I tolerate your comments. Yes, he’s just dragging around a rope. And are you serious? Not a proper tether? Of course he has plenty of fresh water and he’s on heart worm meds. Give it a rest on the crate idea. And no I don’t put him outside during the heat. The small step I mentioned was him coming through the door.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Gowacky said:


> We make progress but in small steps. I use the long line because he obeys much quicker. But he’s much better at coming when called. And a first this morning, I was able to call him inside while holding the door open. Previously he would not come in unless I just cracked the door and disappeared. But leaving the door cracked must end. I’m letting cool air out and flies in. Now he’s eaten and he’s back in his spot resting. I’ll just monitor him closely and take him for a walk occasionally. He hasn’t pooped inside but I haven’t had an opportunity to praise him for going outside either.


That's a huge step for him! Good boy Tuff. 
He really is a handsome boy.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I didn’t say you were specifically targeting me. I was explain what happens on public pages (no matter the subject type) where anyone asks for advice. They get the good, the bad, and the ugly, and it’s up to the poster to weed through the responses they get. 

And I have offered plenty of good advice. I did in the post above. Make sure to dump and give him fresh water daily. A lot of people don’t think about their dogs water dish or splash pool as a breeding ground. I’m not accusing you of giving him filthy water, it was literally just advice. 

And I’m not pushing the crate, I am absolutely curious as to what you are going to do with Tuff if something comes up (emergency or forgotten plans) during the hottest part of the day, and you won’t be able to supervise him. Most people have a plan in place for this. I’m curios as to what yours in, since you only have the two options of inside supervised or outside unsupervised.

As for the tether, using a thin rope like that can be dangerous. It can unravel quickly, and if Tuff swallows some of that, it can lead to an obstruction that requires surgery. That’s why proper leads are made in thicker diameter with tighter weave, so it’s less likely to start fraying or be chewed apart by little puppy teeth. 

Is your storm door a sliding glass door by chance?


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

A couple of questions that may lead to more productive help from others who have been participating in helping you and Tuff. And more productive guidance on helping you achieve your goals.

My first questions that I don’t think has been brought up is what made you come to the conclusion that Tuff was under socialized as a pup while with the breeder and what is your definition of under socialization?

My second question, since you do have his papers, would you care to either share his sire and dams formal name on this thread or to someone who understands lines well enough to get a general idea of what those two lines would produce via pm?

At this point, I think that answering these three questions will make a difference to those who are helping. 

Way back in the first few pages, a very knowledgeable member mentioned that genetics does matter. With my one guy and the quest to understand him, genetics did matter. It helped guide me to do some things that by my own nature I found difficult to do but proved to be in his and my best interest. And other things through my understanding of his genetics (offered by a member way back when) and temperament help me to understand and decided when and what scenarios I needed to give a little more time and leeway. 

It is just another thought.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sure, I’ll list his information regarding his dam and sire. Give me a bit.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Sire - ALPHATEX’s ZEUS VOM BACH

Dam- DAKOTA VOM BACH


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

I’ll answer your question regarding his under socialization although it is lengthy and already been conveyed. 

The breeders were a husband and wife. She was the primary person and she died in a wreck a year ago. The husband has a broken leg and was overwhelmed. The females were allowed to have their litters in a remote barn where mountain lion attacks took a couple of pups. He was forced to try to sell out. I got Tuff who was the next to last one to leave. He had no interaction with people. He was almost feral.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

AKC papers


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Gowacky said:


> I’ll answer your question regarding his under socialization although it is lengthy and already been conveyed.
> 
> The breeders were a husband and wife. She was the primary person and she died in a wreck a year ago. The husband has a broken leg and was overwhelmed. The females were allowed to have their litters in a remote barn where mountain lion attacks took a couple of pups. He was forced to try to sell out. I got Tuff who was the next to last one to leave. He had no interaction with people. He was almost feral.


I appreciate the info as it seems that you as well as those replying are faced with explaining info that has already been given. It is a two sided coin when trying to help and trying to utilize the help. Had I known that it was already relayed wouldn’t have asked. 

The Pedegree just adds more info to who your boy is and the genetic component to his potential. Knowledge is power when used appropriately.

I have to say this. My condolences to that family and the entire set of circumstances that were at the beginning of Tuffs’ life. 

Keep at it, stay as open minded as you can, I don’t think this boy will fail you.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thank you and if the information on his papers means anything to you I’d like to know what you learn from it.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

From the little I know about pedigree's, that looks like pretty much pet stock breeding to me. 

If I am correct, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for you as "pet" breeders breed for out of standard temperament. They want lower drive, more social dogs. It has down sides. I don't see any indicators of health testing or any testing at all. 
The other down side is that it's tough, lol, to say how the genetics will combine in terms of temperament. 

This means he is a dog that really needs to be judged based on what you see. So far that's promising. He is wary, and that means balancing between pushing him enough to act without forcing him to react if that makes sense. A wary dog will not budge without some incentive. 
@Jax08 gave you some good video suggestions I think for training and @Steve Strom is a good source for info as well, even if he comes across a bit blunt sometimes. He was very supportive of me when I was struggling with Shadow, if a bit "no nonsense. Sometimes we all need that. 

So far he seems like a pleasant pup, but you do need to start forcing the issue a bit with obedience and routine. I know you just want a companion but structure is good for everyone.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

He is certainly wary but that improves daily. He comes right through the door when I open it for him now and just yesterday he wouldn’t do that. He really tries to please. I regret his month loose inside. That is probably the most confusing for him. He’s very sensitive and I’ve recognized that and never scolded him for the potty issue. I don’t think he gets it about where he can potty. I’ll just monitor him and I’m pretty confident that when he gets it we will have a huge improvement.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Gowacky said:


> He is certainly wary but that improves daily. He comes right through the door when I open it for him now and just yesterday he wouldn’t do that. He really tries to please. I regret his month loose inside. That is probably the most confusing for him. He’s very sensitive and I’ve recognized that and never scolded him for the potty issue. I don’t think he gets it about where he can potty. I’ll just monitor him and I’m pretty confident that when he gets it we will have a huge improvement.


This may seem like strange advise, but leave just a little stool (not the entire mass) when he eliminates outside. You want the scent to draw him to that spot and remind him that that's where he goes. If the spot isn't where you want him to go (e.g., the patio), take a bit of poop and move it to the spot you prefer and leave it there for a couple of days. Sometimes that approach helps.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I asked for the info knowing that others with more knowledge (such as Sabis etc) would see and,hopefully offer some info. I have an intense interest in the subject,of pedigree but it is very limited to what little I know and have learned of my own boy’s lines. But I love looking at the different pedigrees that others post and follow the information others offer. It’s how I have learned. Knowledge is powered even when that Avenue doesn’t offer much it still offers some.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Gowacky the reason for asking if your storm door is a sliding glass door is because the make doggie door inserts for sliding glass doors that take little to no effort to install. It would help with potty training a lot.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jchrest said:


> @Gowacky the reason for asking if your storm door is a sliding glass door is because the make doggie door inserts for sliding glass doors that take little to no effort to install. It would help with potty training a lot.




Yes, I was thinking the same thing. My dog door is a life saver. Housebreaking was a snap with the dog door, even with adult rescue dogs.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Aly said:


> This may seem like strange advise, but leave just a little stool (not the entire mass) when he eliminates outside. You want the scent to draw him to that spot and remind him that that's where he goes. If the spot isn't where you want him to go (e.g., the patio), take a bit of poop and move it to the spot you prefer and leave it there for a couple of days. Sometimes that approach helps.


That's how I do it. It's called "seeding" and is a tried and true method for most animals. You clean up the undesirable area and leave the desired area marked.


----------



## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Guys, take a look at the "Brazen coyotes" thread before recommending a dog door automatically. Keep in mind that if dogs can come and go, other critters (e.g., coyote, raccoon, burglars) can too.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Seeding does work. I had a rescue once that would ONLY go on puppy pads, and it was a 120lb Rottweiler. No way was I going to be allowing those huge piles happen inside, both for health reasons, and because, um, gross! Lol. 

So I waited until he soiled a pad, and brought it to a corner of the yard I wanted him to go in. Took a few tries, and one or two accidents inside, but he got it down, and puppy pads were quickly trashed.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am not a fan of dog doors because I'm a control freak, lol. I don't let my dogs outside unattended ever, but most of that is conditioned response to living in a city where dog theft is rampant and poisonings are a normal thing.
I know loads of very knowledgeable and experienced people who swear by them.
@Jchrest, it is definitely one of the most effective ways I've found. And just eww! Rottie on a pee pad. Not in my house either.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

My storm door is solid but I wondered if the glass company could cut it and install a doggie door. I’d love that. He’s smart and he communicates well so I would think he could learn to bark when he wants out. BTW though I have the doggie bells on order. They may work and they were cheap. He sure knows how to tell me he wants in. He should be able to tell me he wants out.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

The backyard is seeded. He has pooped out there. It seems he does not want to go for me even on a long line but he will poop in the backyard when unattended. I’d like to praise and reinforce that but it’s been difficult to catch him. Still I think this is good news. He is not going inside and that’s the main goal.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> My storm door is solid but I wondered if the glass company could cut it and install a doggie door. I’d love that. He’s smart and he communicates well so I would think he could learn to bark when he wants out. BTW though I have the doggie bells on order. They may work and they were cheap. He sure knows how to tell me he wants in. He should be able to tell me he wants out.


You can have someone install it on an actual wall leading out, it would probably be cheaper and safer than trying it with a glass door. I’ll attached a picture of mine so you can see what I’m talking about. 

As for other animals getting in and out of your home via doggie door access, they do have doggie doors that only operate with an animal that has a collar on that opens and closes the doggie door. Our doggie door has two flaps, so one on the inside, and one on the outside. We have 115 degree weather in the summers here, and the doggie door helps to keep the house cool with the double flaps, as opposed to holding the door open to let them in and out. 

We have plenty of wild animals in CA, and have never had an issue with it being used by skunks, raccoons, opossums, other dogs, or coyotes. And the house is in the country where there a plenty. They do, however, try to get to the chickens. We had something slightly similar to a doggie door installed, but is on a timer. The chickens have learned that when dusk comes, they get into the barn, and the door automatically shuts and locks. Then opens again at daybreak. It’s the nocturnal animals that are a concern, and since Tuff sleeps in doors, the doggie door can easily enough be closed off to prevent anything coming in.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

My home is all rock. Putting a doggie door through that is not an option. I could buy another storm door that already has a dog door in it. I just need to see what is available. 

We do not have the kind of varmint problem that is enough to be concerned.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Doggie Door??


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

That looks easily enough replaced with a door that is half wood and half glass. Glass on the top, wood on the bottom, and a doggie door installed on the bottom wooden part. It will block some of your natural light coming indoors, but my doggie door is a lifesaver, I’d be willing to give up some natural light for a doggie door anytime.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

A dog door is an option. It works great if it fits your lifestyle and location. It’s wonderful for me. I’ve had my dog door for 20 years, through Dobermans, Italian Greyhounds and GSDs. 

My dogs have access to a secure dog yard. I have an expensive dog door that won’t blow open in this Oklahoma wind. The magnets are too strong for the average housecat to open, so there’s no concern my cats will leave. I close the dog door when it storms, when I want to do yard work without a bunch of helpers, or whenever I want them in or out. 

I’m not sure where my two are at the moment, because I don’t watch them 24/7. They are either on the couch in the living room or out in the yard. I’m in the TV room under a pile of Siamese cats. The dogs are like a bunch of little kids that run in and out all day long. They have options. 

I think as long as you don’t have a recall on him though, it might be difficult. Dragging a line through a dog door won’t work.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

We took off our old storm door (the screen was ripped and it was 20 years old) and we replaced it with a Larson Pet Door that I bought at Lowes. It's basically a storm door, but the top slides to be glass or screen, and the bottom third has a dog door with a sturdy plastic weatherproof flap. It also comes with a plastic "tray" that you can slip into the petdoor to close it off. However we just usually close and lock our solid inner back door in the evening. 

Our dog is not an escape artist...the most he will ever do is go out, sniff, pee, and then come right back to lay within sight of me at all times. He doesn't like to be in the backyard alone!

Why we got it: he had a bout of diarrhea in the wintertime. I was getting up and opening the back door all through the night, every few hours! I couldn't leave the back door propped open because the heat would run constantly and the house would drop to 50 degrees.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff shows bravery! His first trip to the lake and he was not afraid to walk to the boat dock. There were holes he had to negotiate and he handled it so easily.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I do have to say, Tuff is absolutely gorgeous! I may have puppy envy right now.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

That’s very kind of you JC


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think if you take it easy on him and focus on exposure without force and focus on bonding doing fun things with him like going to the lake that he is going to be a really nice boy for you. 

His coloring is gorgeous and I look forward to seeing future pictures as he grows and matures.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nice to see him out and about with you. He really is a handsome lad.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Thank so much. I’ve been looking forward to getting him out more but it gets hot so early most days. His behavior has improved so much that I’m trying to go off leash with him almost all the time. I see he wants to mind and would do so off leash even better I believe. For some reason unknown to me he still seeks out his safe spot in the flower bed initially but the improvement is that he gives in and comes to me now. But I’ll be glad when he no longer feels the need to avoid first. Inside he has two spots and the potty area. He’s only had one accident and that was predictable. So he’s doing very well. He’s content to sleep a lot and I can monitor him. So, he’s doing all his business outside but almost none is done when I see him so I’m not able to praise. It’s working pretty good so this may be our life.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Glad to hear things are working out for you. Take your time and don't rush anything. Working with under exposure takes time. Whatever you are doing is working out good for you and him. Keep at it!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I saw a comment on drives vs energy. I just wanted to point out those are not the same thing. They are related but not the same. Drive is explosive. You can have a dog that is very chill in the house or out and about but be "explosive" when the ball appears which would be high drive, good off switch. Or a dog that can't settle, has super high energy, but has zero desire to chase a ball = low drive, no off switch. 

And also that high energy dogs are NOT necessarily poorly bred nervous wrecks. That's where impulse control training comes in. Some dogs need to be taught to settle and have the good nerve to do it. If they have bad nerves, then they would have problems settling.

So many assumptions and false hoods running around.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff and House Breaking - Well, as this is unorthodox I’m prepared to be flogged again. But I had to report on Tuff’s amazing success. When I began tethering him to my bedside the pottying inside the house stopped. I am not tooting my horn too loud but this is creating the desired result so educate me as to why this is terrible. I’m handling him off leash and he no longer drags a line. Our schedule is to be outside early and he’s staying with me just fine while I’m allowing him to smell the chickens. He’s rushed the fence towards them when he’s been inside. We have yet to have one flush close to him. When that happens I’ll report. But he minds me and he stays in his chosen spot while inside. He has access to water but I just don’t allow him to go in the area where he had pottied. The result is he is into his 2nd week with no mistakes. Tuff is happy and desires to sleep a LOT.... 16 hours a day, easy! But he’s smart and healthy and I’m lucky to have him, but at 6 months his behavior seems very unusual.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The only time there is something wrong with what someone is doing is if it isn't working.

You and Tuff seem to be finding a rhythm and that is great. People get caught up in over thinking things or they get stuck in a rut of their own and cannot see out of it. The tethering works because dogs don't like to go where they sleep. I've tethered dogs, lots of them. It's certainly not a catastrophe.
I'm glad you are both spending time outside together. Those chickens better watch out!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

To Mine are Working Line - First I want to thank you for taking the time to help Tuff and me. I’ve read your comments several times but just don’t know how to interpret ‘working with under exposure dogs’. I mean I get it that Tuff is just going to be my companion for what could be perhaps a long life for him too. That’s giving us both a generous 15 years. And by under exposure I take it that you know I live alone in a rural area and have an acre for Tuff. Tuff is beginning to have periods when he’s wanting to burn some energy. My home has a big room (30x40) and the floor is the slab. He’s carved out a race track doing lots of high speed sliding turns. He’s a mess! It’s 100 degrees outside and he has a heavy coat so he understandably prefers to stay inside, We do make an outside trip at first light. He loves to chase the flip pole toy and he will chase some other toys and most of the time he retrieves them. After that active period Tuff is content to lay in his spot close to me. If I move he’s with me. LoL None of that behavior was taught by me. It’s his desire to be with me. Unfortunately for me that doesn’t include rights to handle him ... he’s a bit aloof. But the love is there and every day he seems to quickly respond to my call. I haven’t had to compete with much though. I watched him rush the fence a time or two when one of the chickens was near. I had decided that was his nature and if he killed a chicken or all three I was not going to scold him. BUT He has now had the opportunity off leash and outside to chase a chicken but he didn’t do it. That may not be a lifetime warranty... LoL 

It seems to me that Tuff and I communicate primarily by motion. Me moving or hand signals. 

Anyway I think I answered my own question. This life is under exposure.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

That exposure without force is exactly what I do I think. In our morning walk I have him off leash. I wanted to get to this point but it took some time before I was confident I could get him home. But he comes well now so he gets to be exposed to the outside. And I just observe so there’s no force.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Gowacky, so happy things are working out. Exposure is where you expose your dog to a lot of different experiences, people, water, parks, stairs, heights, etc., but you don't force interaction if it makes them uncomfortable. That doesn't mean you can't encourage them, just you don't force them over their comfort levels. 

I am glad you have him off leash. Sounds like you are making progress. I would not let things get out of control with your chickens though. Sounds like he is in a good place regarding them and it is your job to not let things escalate. 

Thanks for the update! I think the people on the forum are ready for some updated pictures. How old is he now?


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Gowacky said:


> To Mine are Working Line - First I want to thank you for taking the time to help Tuff and me. I’ve read your comments several times but just don’t know how to interpret ‘working with under exposure dogs’. I mean I get it that Tuff is just going to be my companion for what could be perhaps a long life for him too. That’s giving us both a generous 15 years. And by under exposure I take it that you know I live alone in a rural area and have an acre for Tuff. Tuff is beginning to have periods when he’s wanting to burn some energy. My home has a big room (30x40) and the floor is the slab. He’s carved out a race track doing lots of high speed sliding turns. He’s a mess! It’s 100 degrees outside and he has a heavy coat so he understandably prefers to stay inside, We do make an outside trip at first light. He loves to chase the flip pole toy and he will chase some other toys and most of the time he retrieves them. After that active period Tuff is content to lay in his spot close to me. If I move he’s with me. LoL None of that behavior was taught by me. It’s his desire to be with me. Unfortunately for me that doesn’t include rights to handle him ... he’s a bit aloof. But the love is there and every day he seems to quickly respond to my call. I haven’t had to compete with much though*. I watched him rush the fence a time or two when one of the chickens was near. I had decided that was his nature and if he killed a chicken or all three I was not going to scold him. BUT He has now had the opportunity off leash and outside to chase a chicken but he didn’t do it. That may not be a lifetime warranty... *LoL
> 
> It seems to me that Tuff and I communicate primarily by motion. Me moving or hand signals.
> 
> Anyway I think I answered my own question. This life is under exposure.



I said I wouldn't reply to this thread but when it comes to chickens, I have many years of experience. 


Do not EVER let him touch a chicken, and if he does, yes scold him if you catch him in the act. Chickens explode quite easily, feathers and blood everywhere, so don't allow this EVER. I have 60 hens and roosters and chicks, and even my 11 week old knows NO/leave it when it comes to chickens. They deserve a life, too. Prevent that from occurring, by saying NO or LEAVE IT and MEAN IT in a voice that means business. 

I have done flooding with both my dogs soon as they arrived here as puppies, one has zero prey drive, the little one has some, but after sitting there in stalk position, and having me throw bread on the ground by her and being rushed by about 30 chickens, she understands no means no, and chickens freak her out a bit. I consider that insurance for my chickens, some who are 10-13 years old and have spent their lives here with us. No means "no, not ever". An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cvamoca said:


> I said I wouldn't reply to this thread but when it comes to chickens, I have many years of experience.
> 
> 
> Do not EVER let him touch a chicken, and if he does, yes scold him if you catch him in the act. *Chickens explode quite easily, feathers and blood everywhere*, so don't allow this EVER. I have 60 hens and roosters and chicks, and even my 11 week old knows NO/leave it when it comes to chickens. They deserve a life, too. Prevent that from occurring, by saying NO or LEAVE IT and MEAN IT in a voice that means business.
> ...


The bolded statement paints two very different pictures, lol! :smile2: Can you elaborate on this a bit? Are you saying they'll explode behaviorally and fight or succumb quickly to a dogs bite? We are new to chickens and have 6, soon to be 5 as one is actually a rooster. Still learning a ton.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Chickens “explode” when they feel threatened. It means they puff up as big as they can, and start dropping feathers (in an explosive display). So you have the noise, the feather flying everywhere, and the chicken itself running away as fast as possible. 

It can increase the odds that once your dog finds hunting down chickens to kill, he will start looking for other small prey to kill. Or he may just stick with chickens, but it’s a pretty distressing way to die for a chicken. And when you’ve raised those chickens from chicks, it’s distressing and heart breaking for the chicken owner, which could in turn lead to resentment towards the dog.


----------



## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Nigel said:


> The bolded statement paints two very different pictures, lol! :smile2: Can you elaborate on this a bit? Are you saying they'll explode behaviorally and fight or succumb quickly to a dogs bite? We are new to chickens and have 6, soon to be 5 as one is actually a rooster. Still learning a ton.


 Here goes...sorry been off doing chores.
No, I don't mean they puff up, though they often do, I mean if a dog gets one.

Chickens are delicious, incredible treats to a dog. They are squeaky, they are fluffy, and they explode like a pinata if a dog bites one! So in my household, they must NEVER bite one. Or touch one.

I've kept dogs and chickens forever, and watched in absolute horror when a neighbour's dog plowed into my fenced flock of really important (to me) show birds. Took out 7 that quick, in mere seconds. 

I tried to teach my neighbour how to fix the problem in her own yard, eventually the old dog died and the problem's resolved. 

It's just really, really easy for a dog to chase and bite, therefore in my world, no dog is allowed to chase or bite unless I say so. My birds are long lived family pets, and as such are not afraid of dogs and don't run, which is super helpful. German Shepherds were bred to be a shepherd dog, rounding up is part of their character, but biting the livestock shouldn't be. 

What I do when teaching a new puppy here, first-- is I don't buy toys that resemble real animals. No fake chickens or ducks or fluffies when puppy is young. No squeaky toys. (I have Silkie chickens) Rope toys, balls, and plant pots which we have in abundance are all fun suitable toys for my place. 

No touching, or sniffing my chickens, til older and nose only. There are enough of them, and they are loose literally on the doorstep, and super friendly so they will walk right up to a new puppy and run up to me. I have a really special Brahma rooster and flock of girls, plus some of my old show birds are still alive. So, they've taught Ellie, and Happy and Luna previously, and Daisy now, that they are just "things in the yard, to be ignored". 

Ellie naturally protects the chickens by laying with them under the step and chasing off predators, specifically foxes--if she hears a rooster make the startle sound, she is gone. Not so much now as she can't see that far. 

Daisy is a bit too young yet to really expect much at 11 weeks, but she knows NO/leave it, because I taught that the first week, and work with her a lot in many small sessions daily. She knows she's not supposed to touch them, she is with Ellie, and Ellie is actively teaching her the correct ropes. Watch the horse, watch the geese, don't watch the chickens, or don't react to them.

When doing fetch games, I teach "out//release" when the dog brings whatever it is back to me. We don't play tug of any kind in my household. We just can't. If that behavior is not taught or learned naturally, it's never going to be a learned behavior. It's just so much easier than trying to correct a learned wrong behavior. Anyone who's worked with horses for any amount of time, knows this to be true as well. You can more easily train a horse correctly the FIRST time, than trying to fix up something you, or someone else screwed up. It's just so much better for them to learn it right. 

Apologies to all for such a long reply.


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

August 1st


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

He is such a handsome boy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What a handsome boy! His expression is one of calm! That's wonderful!


----------



## Gowacky (Jun 12, 2019)

Tuff More than any other description of him, calm is the first choice. He was plenty wild when I got him but from the very beginning every time he would choose to get calm rather than all worked up and he certainly didn’t want the leash. But he gave to it immediately and continues to walk on leash with zero pressure.


----------



## JulieLobato (Sep 24, 2019)

I would have a thourough vet check done immediately. If I had known this pup had not been socialized I would've walked away. This type of irresponsible breeding is sickening. What is the reaction to your attempt at handling him? Growling? Dont back down from a vocal pup as you lose your leadership role. Now is the time to condition him. Get treats out. When he goes for a treat in your closed fist, gently scratch his chin and say Yes! Then treat him. Work your way up to more. You need to be able to touch every part of his body and associate it with positive . 

You will have an unmanageable and dangerous dog on your hands if you don't do this work of desensitization immediately. Don't scold or roll him over but praise all good behaviors.

I sincerely hope you and your pup will update us with how things go.


----------

