# Psa Titles as breeding titles



## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

What is your opinion on psa Titles showing a dog is worthy of breeding? Meaning reputable breeders sell a dog with limited registration and will only make it full registration after dog has earn a title. Usually that's ipo but some breeders also accept psa Titles. Thoughts? 

If you were looking for a pup would you rather choose two parents with ipo Titles or two with psa Titles? I know that's a loaded question but just speaking in general terms. Thoughts?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Me personally? Probably PSA but I'd like to see how the dogs nose works too


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just depends on what you're looking for. If you're into PSA, look for PSA, if you're into IPO, I'm sure the IPO titles are more important.

Then there are people that know so much that they could care less about any titles and just want to see the dogs do something if their pedigree looks like its what they're interested in.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Id want a look at the parents and the pedigrees. Who cares about the titles? A good trainer with enough time and effort can push a dog to 3 in either that has no business being used as breeding stock.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

That's why i said loaded question. Of course you would rather just see the parents work. 

But you can't. So which title would hold more value to you? Precision focused ipo or nerve focused psa?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Do you have a way of knowing how the titles were obtained? Are they club trials with in house decoys? If so they mean very little, or were they national or world level titles obtained in another field they couldn't practice in with decoys they didn't know?


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Oh I'm not asking for me. Just a general question on if psa Titles make a Shepherd breed worthy? 

I agree on your point about "courage" test with a club decoy lol.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I do disagree with you about a good enough trainer being able to push a dog to psa3. Ipo3 yes. Psa3 I'm not so sure.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I think the saying is if you can get a dog to ipo3 then you have officially become a dog trainer


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the problem with the question is that "breedworthy" is such an objective thing. You'll see a lot of things that make a dog breedworthy. A dog without any titles can be considered breedworthy because a "reputable breeder" said so and everyone else just fell inline. But a dog that's IPO3 could not be considered breedworthy because a breeder of high enough caliber didn't give their approval.

If you're talking about on this forum...I would assume any high level bite sport title would get people to "approve" of the litter. I've noticed that any type of bite sport, because it has a reputation of proving a bit about the dog's nerves, gets a bit more credit than doing sports which don't have any kind of protection component.

I do SDA and IPO training. SDA is kind of small. It's fun, but it just doesn't have the same reach as IPO. So an SDA title won't be known by as many people as an IPO title. I'll assume the same is true for PSA. The more I read...the more I understand how important it is to actually watch/work the dogs you're thinking about getting a puppy out of. A dog can be an excellent example of the breed, but someone with an agenda can come on here and rip apart some small component of a video that was taken.

What I've seen/heard is that IPO people are a little more closed minded when it comes to other titles and they like to see IPO titles in the pedigree. The guy I work with for SDA says that it's important to breed back to IPO titled dogs in the pedigree because the more serious people in the sport (IPO) generally won't look at a puppy that doesn't have IPO titles within the last 2-3 generations. Other sports...the people seem to be a bit more open (which makes sense that if you do SDA you'll be fine with a generational pedigree that only has SDA titles in it). The same guy, basically says that most of the puppies are sold to pet homes who can give two rips about any titles lol.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm one of those that know so much that I give little thought to titles but more so to genetics and experience/knowledge of the breeder. ....at the end of the day, what you consistently breed/own speaks volumes about whether the way you determine breed worthy is valid. The thing I struggle with is defining the people who are continually lucky doing things their way.


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

I have titled the same dog in both IPO and PSA twice, and working on my third. I believe PSA is a better test of a dogs environmental stability, civility, substance and confidence in protection but believe IPO covers a broader spectrum in terms of the three phases.

You learn a great deal about an IPO dog when you transition to PSA...both good and bad. I believe PSA exposes more of the dog than IPO protection (I can write a book). But I believe a test that includes nose work is important too. IPO (even if the dog can be trained sufficiently to obtain a title) the work put into IPO tells the handler a little more. Tracking is difficult if the dog doesn't have good food drive, obedience and retrieves are more challenging with a dog who doesn't have sufficient toy drive. 

It is much more than knowing if a dog will bite for real or can obtain high scores. It is in the training that teaches you the most.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Warrior.....though I agree with pretty much everything you just wrote, I must remind you that in discussing breeding or breed worthy, I have yet to see a dog that can pass the title or the training through their sperm. In judging worth of individual dog, I often give much value to performances or titles in the higher venues of sport or PSA.....but it won't change the genetics when I look at the dog from breeding perspective. But remember,:wub:, I am very outdated in my approaches!


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

@ Cliff. Agreed but if folks don't test genetics with training and titles how do you accurately evaluate?
If a dog has zero titles in the closest four generations can you accurately assess their pedigrees? Know their strengths and weaknesses?

I have an imported Czech dog who I washed from PSA because of environmental sensitivity. But he has excellent drives and is doing good in IPO (where the most fields look and helpers behave the same) He isn't breed worthy and you probably couldn't tell that from his pedigree.

so while a dog can't train and pass a title with his sperm, the training/title will eliminate those who are not worthy JMO. ;-)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Send me his pedigree in pm....let me see.


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

PM sent


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Warrior K9 said:


> so while a dog can't train and pass a title with his sperm, the training/title will eliminate those who are not worthy JMO. ;-)


:thumbup:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

But it will also, make dogs breed worthy who really aren't , so I'm not sure the value of the point.


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

and that's why I need you ;-) haha


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> But it will also, make dogs breed worthy who really aren't , so I'm not sure the value of the point.


I've realized "breed worthy" is the most subjective term that gets thrown around on this forum.

Each one of us is looking for something different, and when we find it, we get it no matter what others say. So no matter what the pedigree says, I'm sure someone out there can find a fault in it, and no matter how high of a score the dog gets at a PSA/SDA/IPO trial, someone will still watch it work and find an issue and tell you why they wouldn't breed that dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Got me!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Even if the dog has 'it' with the nose, the protection and all else, if there is some health issues in the progeny or history, the dog is not breedworthy. So looking at the dog individually and how that dog is~ without seeing siblings or others produced, is that a fair assessment? 
I think there is way more to PSA, SDA or IPO titles when it comes to the larger picture when it comes to reproducing. 
But then again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

As far as I know only the GSD has a specific test. 

How do all those **** dog folks manage to breed good dogs without a "breed test"?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Smaller, less popular breed...not everyone and their mother wants a **** hound. But I have a feeling they have just as many debates about their show dogs and the dogs that actually still hunt raccoon.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I suppose there are few titles available that are worthless IF the breeder have a good eye if a certain dog is breedworthy and have what it takes for the purpose of the breedingprogram, then PSA,SCH,policedog and so on is of less importance because you look at the dog first and not the titles. As mentioned earlier breeding is not only about one dog, it´s also to have knowledge about the relatives/family of the dogs regarding health and their workingability, if you have that then the "genetic power" of the dog is stronger compared to a dog that have nice titles and points as an individual but besides that you don´t know much or it doesn´t look so impressive regarding health and workingability.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Smaller, less popular breed...not everyone and their mother wants a **** hound. But I have a feeling they have just as many debates about their show dogs and the dogs that actually still hunt raccoon.


Some years ago I helped a friend who was showing at a AKC lab speciality and yup, lots of debates between show and field lines.

Another friend was into goldens. Same thing, show goldens vs field. She preferred field and completed in AKC OB (her dogs made UDX too!) and hunt tests. 

GSDs do manage to take this debate to a whole 'nuther level though.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> But it will also, make dogs breed worthy who really aren't , so I'm not sure the value of the point.


 Nope. Only breeders can make dogs breed worthy who aren't.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> As far as I know only the GSD has a specific test.
> 
> How do all those **** dog folks manage to breed good dogs without a "breed test"?


I deal with a lot of them as clients (and bear dogs too) and that is because they only breed proven stock . If they can't hunt they aren't bred, pretty simple!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oh I get it Lisa, kinda like only Judges can give dogs titles.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Now that's a novel concept!....(@ugavet)


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Now that's a novel concept!....(@ugavet)


Yeah, funny how that works out......


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Smaller, less popular breed...not everyone and their mother wants a **** hound. But I have a feeling they have just as many debates about their show dogs and the dogs that actually still hunt raccoon.


Yes, they do ! Believe it or not, they have a lot of the same types of arguments as GSD folks. My grandfather and uncles were avid hunters as well as a couple of my close friends right now. They constantly have the old fashioned type hound vs competition type hound. As they say when they make a breeding, "Do you want the meat or the money" LOL, meaning the old style dogs are slower, have "colder" noses ,and more methodical, while the "competition/sport type hounds are faster but have a tendency to be lighter boned, lack the grit to confront what they're hunting, or become "slick treeing dogs" and/or "babblers" (dogs that tree when nothing's really there or bark a lot when they haven't really caught the trail). Older dogs were used/bred to truly locate/hunt for food while a lot of newer dogs are used for competitions/titles. Now, of course all of the older type dogs weren't great and all of the newer type dogs aren't fine boned, slick tree dogs, but that just entails some of the argument. It reminds me so much of the GSD when people talk about "true working dogs" vs "sport dogs". A lot of houndsmen have interesting views as far as pedigrees though. No matter how the dog is bred, until is is actually treeing, it's just viewed as a dog. As I've heard a million times when someone has pulled out their pedigrees: "papers don't tree *****" and "dogs can't read" LOL !


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Pretty much sums it up.....most old school breeders don't have websites and competition trophies, so what do they know; besides a good dog when they see it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

What a concept. Breeding dogs who are good at their job.

Instead of breeding for a test.

Hmmm.

.


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok how is this...my girl got her PDC yesterday (1st try) after only being shown the bicep and suit for a couple months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXFxTwSDMas

It is not the title that makes her breed worthy it was how easy it was to transition her from IPO (bitebar/forarm sleeve) to PSA (bicep on a suit) that makes her breed worthy IMO.

Or when I introduced my then IPO only dog to a civil bite, she took it without hesitation...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrlYBB-YkR8&list=UU_TqcCcm7Y6KeolRcK7teAg
(this was her second session on the hidden sleeve, didn't get the first on video)

Any shmo can train a dog for a title...and flaws can go undiscovered when you don't work a dog. She has her strengths and weaknesses, every dog does...they are not machines. I asked someone about a stud and she said he is perfect (bull****)...she also bought him titled and has rarely worked him. One must become a student of the working dog to know what is truly before you. JMHO


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

And of course, as always, I checked with Cliff LOL


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Congrats to you and your BHOT girl Rue! I'd trust any breeding match you decide upon, you know what is necessary to compliment the pedigrees because you work and trial your dogs. Proof is in the pudding


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Warrior K9 said:


> And of course, as always, I checked with Cliff LOL


Who doesn't? Lol


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Congrats Warrior, I am not against any titles, because they show a development of the dog. I just trust breeders more than titles for breeding decisions.


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

Warrior K9 said:


> ...and flaws can go undiscovered when you don't work a dog. She has her strengths and weaknesses, every dog does...they are not machines. I asked someone about a stud and she said he is perfect (bull****)...she also bought him titled and has rarely worked him. One must become a student of the working dog to know what is truly before you. JMHO


This is so, so true Warrior K9. I spoke about this a while back on apost. I know, for me, the biggest challenge used to be (and still is although to a lesser degree )trying to determine how much was "dog" and how much was training. You really do have to become a student. The thing about it is that your studying never ends


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

Warrior K9 said:


> Ok how is this...my girl got her PDC yesterday (1st try) after only being shown the bicep and suit for a couple months.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXFxTwSDMas
> 
> ...


Very, very nice female by the way. She's very high spirited and fast with good looks to boot.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I wish I could watch the videos.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> I wish I could watch the videos.


Can you try downloading them? It's really easy, much faster and then you can watch on your computer. I csn explain how, maybe your connection can handle it


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## Warrior K9 (Jan 26, 2012)

my video's? You should be able to copy and paste the URL to your browser


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My computer connection is too slow and I am low on data on my phone.  I'll have to remember to watch them once I have more data again.


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