# Hard dog vs. Soft dog. When did you know?



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I never really thought about it before. Rogue is definitely not an overly soft dog. But other than that, it didn't really matter much. I haven't used any corrections except no or eh eh (like nope try again) when training. But today I was outside with her on a long line and my daughter was playing. She has a bad habit of running after or up to my daughter and biting her, thus the long line. She went to do it again but this time I walked up to her and grabbed the long line to walk her back to where I was sitting. I grabbed the leash just as she was going to jump at my daughter and said no. She hit the end of the leash pretty hard, giving herself a correction. Nothing I meant to do, I was just going to walk her back to me and have her lay down next to my chair. Anyways after the "correction" she went from a 6 ish in excitement to a 10. turned around and jumped and latched onto my bicep giving me the worst bite she has ever given me. It bled and instantly bruised. Not aggression, she's a baby. but it was excitement. The correction, instead of making her stop actually amped up her excitement level. Most dogs I have had in the past, and have worked with have been relatively soft dogs. The only dog I have ever had that reminds me of Rogue was my childhood shepherd mix. Anyways, is this at all a sign of hardness in a dog? Or was this just frustration because she couldn't get to my daughter so she turned to me? Or both? lol


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Just curious...
What is the age of your dog? And, what did you do after she bit you?

 Kat


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> I never really thought about it before. Rogue is definitely not an overly soft dog. But other than that, it didn't really matter much. I haven't used any corrections except no or eh eh (like nope try again) when training. But today I was outside with her on a long line and my daughter was playing. She has a bad habit of running after or up to my daughter and biting her, thus the long line. She went to do it again but this time I walked up to her and grabbed the long line to walk her back to where I was sitting. I grabbed the leash just as she was going to jump at my daughter and said no. She hit the end of the leash pretty hard, giving herself a correction. Nothing I meant to do, I was just going to walk her back to me and have her lay down next to my chair. Anyways after the "correction" she went from a 6 ish in excitement to a 10. turned around and jumped and latched onto my bicep giving me the worst bite she has ever given me. It bled and instantly bruised. *Not aggression*, she's a baby. but it was excitement. *The correction, instead of making her stop actually amped up her excitement level.* Most dogs I have had in the past, and have worked with have been relatively soft dogs. The only dog I have ever had that reminds me of Rogue was my childhood shepherd mix. Anyways, is this at all a sign of hardness in a dog? Or was this just frustration because she couldn't get to my daughter so she turned to me? Or both? lol


Big question is the age of your dog.

But a BIGGER question is this - Do you realize if a dog blows off your "correction"; it WASN'T a correction! Just at best a suggestion that the dog has an option of ignoring if they choose. (Yours did!)

Why in the world would you let your dog get away with biting your daughter (how old is she?) repeatedly?


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

She is 5 months old this week. 

She's not allowed to bite my daughter repeatedly. It happened once while hiking and I've made sure it hasn't happened since. But she tries to chase and bite her if we are hiking or playing outside so I keep her on a long line so she can't. And redirect her to games of tug with me or fetch or have her chew a bone next to my chair outside. 

I didn't do anything when she bit me initially. We are doing French ring and I was told not to have any negative associations with biting. Michael ellis talked about this also while i was at his training course. If you have a working dog for bite work who accidentally nails you and you understandably yell out because it hurts, it can cause a negative association. Although this wasn't accidental i still went about it the same way. Right now it's all redirection. But I did make her sit and then put her in her crate after so she could calm down a bit. And so I could also because dang it hurt! 

Also, I wasn't trying to give a physical correction. My intention was to say no and walk her back to her bone and my chair. She jumped and self corrected when hitting the leash. And she was just wearing a flat collar. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Excuse typos. I'm typing on my phone. 


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

My guess (just a guess since I didn't see it) is that your dog doesn't really know what a correction is, as you have never really used them. I have found this with both of my boys when they were puppies, they didn't respond to the first few corrections they got because they really had no idea what they were. One of my dogs turned out to be very hard and one is middle of the road (maybe a little on the soft side.) I would bet that biting you was just frustration and redirection. At this stage I would personally ignore it, but that is just me. I'm sure others will have opinions on that behaviour. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

shes still young you dont know what she will turn out to be. The older my dog gets the harder she gets. Shes VERY decoy hard but not so hard with me like my older male was he could take way to much of a correction.. My old male was very handler hard but he was a ***** when it came to a decoy he would shut down and run away.


My bitch is very decoy hard and with me shes medium. So shes not handler hard or soft. I HATE to have a handler hard dog that is just crappy. But i love to have a dog that is hard on others.

yeah i have been bitten in the past by gsd pup which drew blood in play and hurt bad i would not take it serious right now either. Just keep redirecting and see if you can put your dog in some kind of sport or something where she can use all that.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Our Jaeger is about five months old and is too mouthy at times, but he is definitely a softy. A correction, for him, needs to be no more than a loud "Ouch" or a "No no!" He immediately goes into ears down, big-eyes apology mode and either goes to get a toy, lies down on my feet, or licks my hand a lot. 

I picked Jaeger out of his litter after watching them all play with both each other and with a person for quite awhile. I knew I wanted a dog that wasn't timid but that would err on the side of overthinking rather than impulsiveness. And I wanted a listener. An aggressive dog wouldn't work in our house. So far he has been perfect for us. It sounds like you wanted a somewhat aggressive dog, so I hope folks who have more experience with that will give you advice.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Ah ok. That's what I was wondering. Is it something that typically shows in young puppies or once they mature? But makes sense that it was just redirected frustration and not a sign of hardness at this point. 

She's such a crazy girl. But we love her. :wub: and her prey drive is great for FR. Not so much for crazy five year olds. :/ It's just management. Aside from the one time she chased and got her hiking, I've done very well keeping her leashed or separate unless she's calm and tired. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

take her to a club and have her looked at they will know where she stands as a puppy but yeah usually you can really tell when they are older but if you want to do FR with her take her to a club

FOr fr you dont need a handler hard dog but you need a dog that has hardness in them I hope that makes sense


good dogs being soft to their owners does not seem to transfer into protection or on the field in sport training, ALso from what ive seen females seem to be less handler hard than males. But the good ones sure know how to fight a decoy lol JMHO which is what i love about them.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't think you will really know until she is older and you are using a bit more compulsion in training. My dogs are kind of funny one is very soft in normal life and pretty hard in training. The other is very hard in normal life but can be quite responsive to corrections in training (unless I am asking him to out a toy! lol) I have found that their level of "hardness" has changed dramatically as they have matured, and as our bond has matured. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

pets4life said:


> take her to a club and have her looked at they will know where she stands as a puppy but yeah usually you can really tell when they are older but if you want to do FR with her take her to a club
> 
> FOr fr you dont need a handler hard dog but you need a dog that has hardness in them I hope that makes sense
> 
> ...


We started with a club a few weeks ago =) I am going wednesday and will talk to them about it then. Just thought I would ask here as well.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

KristiM said:


> I don't think you will really know until she is older and you are using a bit more compulsion in training. My dogs are kind of funny one is very soft in normal life and pretty hard in training. The other is very hard in normal life but can be quite responsive to corrections in training (unless I am asking him to out a toy! lol) I have found that their level of "hardness" has changed dramatically as they have matured, and as our bond has matured.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Good to know, thanks!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> She is 5 months old this week.
> 
> *She's not allowed to bite my daughter repeatedly. It happened once while hiking and I've made sure it hasn't happened since.* But she tries to chase and bite her if we are hiking or playing outside so I keep her on a long line so she can't. And redirect her to games of tug with me or fetch or have her chew a bone next to my chair outside. *How about a correction that your dog will respect to stop the daughter biting? *
> 
> ...


I was confused by your posts! See the quote above in red. Sounds like your dog bit your daughter once (in that line).

But in your initial post you said the following:
*"She has a bad habit of running after or up to my daughter and biting her, thus the long line"*

*I just sort of thought when you said "habit" that your dog did it more than once (hence your use of the word "habit").*

*So just to clear up any of my confusion - did your dog bite your daughter just that once while they were hiking, or does your dog really have a "habit" of biting your daughter?*

*The difference, as you could imagine would make a difference in any advice that I or any one else might offer.*

*How do you think your dog will learn that it is not OK to bite you (or esp. your daughter) if you don't teach the dog?*


*BTW, once your dog gets it's title in the French Ring sport - will it still be ok to bite your daughter and you? Just curious, as I don't know much if anything about the French Ring sport; but I do ScH and it would not be ok for a ScH trained dog (mine anyway) to bite their owner or a family member.*


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

codmaster it is a 5 month old prey driven working line pup of course it is going to be a biting monster right now. If he is with a club right now they will help him deal with any issues he has i am sure with the kids. But his pup is going to be a lil nightmare for a while. He has a club though he is training with which is good.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm with pets4life, it sounds like the op is managing the land shark phase well with his daughter. I don't think he was really asking for a solution to the biting, sounds like he is just going by the advice of his club. I don't have kids so I haven't got the slightest clue how any one survives the land shark phase with little ones lol. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

codmaster said:


> I was confused by your posts! See the quote above in red. Sounds like your dog bit your daughter once (in that line).
> 
> But in your initial post you said the following:
> *"She has a bad habit of running after or up to my daughter and biting her, thus the long line"*
> ...


She had a habit of Trying. She wants to chase everything. A kid running around is no different. So I keep her leashed. She still tries to chase her but with her leashed I can stop her and redirect her when needed. 

No of course it would not be OK for her to bite us after titling. She's not allowed to do that now. But at this age it's my management mistake. She will learn by showing her what IS appropriate. I'm not against corrections at an appropriate age, I will talk to the club Wednesday. 


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with Codmaster. She shouldn't be allowed to bite. This is the not fair to your daughter, you, and the pup. She needs to learn manners before she hurts someone.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Sometimes posts here get over analyzed a little. I should have wrote has a habit of TRYING to chase and bite my daughter. But really what parents sits back and watches their puppy chase and bite their kid several times? I'm not a noob to dogs or training in general. But I enjoy asking questions, learning more and getting other's opinions here. So if I sounded like one, I apologize. I really just wanted to hear others' experiences and gave background information on why I was asking. I'm not looking for training advice per say. I'm working with a club and right now I was told it is just a lot of management. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yeah i would see what your club says because you dont want to curb any of her drive by mistake ever. FoR fr they need a lot of drive lol Lots of running and biting lol


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

pets4life said:


> codmaster it is a 5 month old prey driven working line pup of course it is going to be a biting monster right now. If he is with a club right now they will help him deal with any issues he has i am sure with the kids. But his pup is going to be a lil nightmare for a while. He has a club though he is training with which is good.


Yes. This is what I am told is normal right now in a working line GSD puppy. And I am a she  I am a stay at home mom and my day revolves around managing puppy and children and making sure rogue is some what tired before her interacting with the 5 year old. Or separated. 




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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Looks as if you have a handle on everything and the club to back you up.
Enjoy your land shark! I do not miss those days, LOL!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

pets4life said:


> codmaster it is a 5 month old *prey driven working line* pup of course it is going to be a biting monster right now. If he is with a club right now they will help him deal with any issues he has i am sure with the kids. But his pup is going to be a lil nightmare for a while. He *has a club* though he is training with which is good.


 
"Working Line" has absolutely nothing to do with the dog's behavior! 

Unless you are saying that a BYB or a US showline or a Europe SL puppy will not have any biting issues. (My own US SL male GSD would certainly disagree with you if you really do believe what you wrote as he was a biting monster at that age but did actually learn to curb and control his biting). Or maybe that these dogs don't have any "prey drive"?

If the OP's club is so helpful with his puppy's behavior, I wonder why he even thought to ask about what he could do on this forum? Just curious.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> She had a habit of Trying. She wants to chase everything. A kid running around is no different. So I keep her leashed. She still tries to chase her but with her leashed I can stop her and redirect her when needed.
> 
> No of course it would not be OK for her to bite us after titling. She's not allowed to do that now. But at this age it's my management mistake. *She will learn by showing her what IS appropriate.* *I'm not against corrections at an appropriate age, I will talk to the club Wednesday.*


 
Heh! Heh! Whatever you are happy with is what you should do. After all, it is your dog!


Just out of curiosity, what would be an appropriate age in your opinion to actually correct a dog? 

Sounds like your dog might be in for an eye opening some time in the future when she exhibits the same inappropriate behavior (i.e. biting your daughter) and gets an actual physical correction.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

codmaster said:


> "Working Line" has absolutely nothing to do with the dog's behavior!
> 
> Unless you are saying that a BYB or a US showline or a Europe SL puppy will not have any biting issues. (My own US SL male GSD would certainly disagree with you if you really do believe what you wrote as he was a biting monster at that age but did actually learn to curb and control his biting). Or maybe that these dogs don't have any "prey drive"?
> 
> If the OP's club is so helpful with his puppy's behavior, I wonder why he even thought to ask about what he could do on this forum? Just curious.


*
This is the original question...*

Hard dog vs. Soft dog. When did you know?

*This is the follow up question...*

Anyways, is this at all a sign of hardness in a dog? Or was this just frustration because she couldn't get to my daughter so she turned to me? Or both? lol 

These are the reasons he brought it up... to give you back round info that you wouldnt already have. He didnt ask for help with the biting. The OP ALREADY has a handle on the biting. Thus the long lead and watchful eye. What else should he be doing?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

[email protected]


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Narny said:


> *This is the original question...*
> 
> Hard dog vs. Soft dog. When did you know?
> 
> ...


Narny, narny,

Did you read the original post?

A quote from it below just in case you didn't get a chance prior to your email above:
*"Or was this just frustration because she couldn't get to my daughter so she turned to me? Or both? lol "*

*See, I thought that the OP was asking about his dog biting him and his daughter. *

*It sounds like from your email above that you must have thought that the OP was asking the group about his puppy's "hardness"?*

*Was that the case? That would certainly explain your kind of insulting and rude comment (CAPITALS and all).*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

pets4life said:


> *OMG*@codmaster


 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Why the use of the word GOD?


I now leave this topic to those who know much better than I about little GSD puppies (also know as "LandSharks" - all varieties) and how to handle their biting!

Getting much too emotional.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I WAS asking about hardness vs softness. She redirected her frustration and excitement to me. So I was asking if, since the fact that I said no. And then She hit the end of the leash giving herself a correction, which did not phase her and actually got her more excited was a sign that she is a relatively hard dog? Or was it just frustration, plain and simple and I won't know her hardness or softness until later? I guess I wrote the initial post a little hastily and not clear enough. I wasn't asking about how to get her to stop biting or stop wanting to chase things. I'm actually purposely doing things to encourage her drive to chase and bite. Not my daughter, but shes just learning that and it will come with time. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

You don't have to leave or get emotional. The original question is when did you know you had a hard or soft dog. That's it. And just to clarify:
*I do not let my dog bite my children. 
*I also do not allow my child to tease the dog, making the dog want to chase and bite her more. And have explained that things like high pitched noises and flailing arms get puppies excited to chase and bite. 
*I do not give physical corrections, aside from removing her from a situation at this time.
*the appropriate age for a physical correction depends on the dog, and the goals for the dog. But generally not until the dog understands the rules or the behavior being asked of him and then chooses to ignore them. Which is taught with positive reinforcement first. 

I think that should clarify it all. Next time I will slow down and proof read before posting. Whew. 

And I asked here, even though I'm working with a club, because it was like 4 pm on a Sunday night and I was curious of Other's experiences. As I said I'm not new to dogs and training, but I am no pro either. Can always learn more and I enjoy and respect many member's opinions and experiences here.  

Oh and I am a SHE  


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I sort of thought the *title of the thread *was self explanatory 

I don't think the scenario tells one anything about "hardness" but it certainly seems to suggest that when excited/frustrated she **might** have a tendency to redirect inappropriately. There has to be a medium between freaking out and shutting down due to correction and I hope you can help her find it.

Going off topic and to the nipping behavior with your daughter- can you get an experienced trainer from your club to come to your home and help you with this specific issue? Just a thought.


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

Hard dog vs. Soft dog. When did you know?

Puppies usually start showing telltale signs at around 7 weeks. When doing puppy temperament tests on can have a pretty good idea.

That being said, the experiences they have as they grow and the way in which their owners react plays a roll in how the puppy turns out.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> I WAS asking about hardness vs softness. She redirected her frustration and excitement to me. So I was asking if, since the fact that I said no. And then She hit the end of the leash giving herself a correction, which did not phase her and actually got her more excited was a sign that she is a relatively hard dog? Or was it just frustration, plain and simple and I won't know her hardness or softness until later? I guess I wrote the initial post a little hastily and not clear enough. I wasn't asking about how to get her to stop biting or stop wanting to chase things. I'm actually purposely doing things to encourage her drive to chase and bite. Not my daughter, but shes just learning that and it will come with time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


I can see where codmaster is coming from.
What if she had redirected the bite to your daughters face??
But sounds like you have it under control.
I have a WL and I am not sure it is entirely accurate to say this is "normal" for a 5 month old puppy.....we had well and truly nipped this behavior in the bud by then (scuse the pun ) Must be tricky trying to encourage chasing and biting but at the same time keeping your daughter safe.
Good Luck.....she looks like a pocket rocket.....very cute!!!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> Oh and I am a SHE


Of course you are......only a "SHE" could manage a baby, a 5 year old AND a GSD puppy all at the same time!!!


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

sparra said:


> Of course you are......only a "SHE" could manage a baby, a 5 year old AND a GSD puppy all at the same time!!!



:thumbup: Only a she would be willing too!


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

sparra said:


> Of course you are......only a "SHE" could manage a baby, a 5 year old AND a GSD puppy all at the same time!!!


? Ain't that the truth. Haha 


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## yuricamp (Mar 13, 2011)

Just to add my comments on here, I thought I would never be able to allow my dog to interact with my 2 yo daughter because whenever I played with him as a young pup, his sharp teeth would draw blood, all accidentally of course, in that there was no malicious intent just him playing as he did with his litter mates. He is now nineteen months old and well past his puppy years and that fear has since passed. I think they just have to get past their excitable "toddler" stage. 
Now I just worry, because whenever he is inside around my nine month old he wants to lick his face, especially his mouth, and that annoys the devil out of me and irritates the baby.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

sparra said:


> Of course you are......only a "SHE" could manage a baby, a 5 year old AND a GSD puppy all at the same time!!!


? Ain't that the truth. Haha 

Yes if she would have made contact on my daughter it would not have been good. But I was already preventing that with the long line. Instead of stepping on it I walked close to her to tell her no, make her sit and redirect her to the bone near my chair. So I put myself in the line of fire I guess. 

She has always liked to chase and bite. But her prey drive has taken a huge leap the past week or so. She REALLY is enjoying it. She's hitting the tug and flirt pole thing with much more intensity these days. So this is relatively new. Habit was probably the wrong word because she hasn't been doing it for long but she has made an attempt several times. Apparently thinking before typing is not my strong suit. But I can catch it quickly. She gets a little crazy gleam In Her eye, ears perk, sometimes a momentary stare and then she'll want to take off. Or sometimes she's bouncy bouncy excited and just wants anything near by to grab in her mouth. 

She is getting better about trying to bite my hands throughout the day. Especially when tired. And she never puts her mouth on the baby. If she's close to him she gets slow and gentle and gives him a kiss. But shes rarely close enough to kiss him. She's usually just close enough to hear him and smell him and all that. I'm actually amazed at the natural instinct around him to be very gentle and slow. 

Also, although it doesn't make biting kids ok or anything, rogue is a VERY small 5 month old. Only 25 pounds and about 17 inches, I believe. So this is not a 50-60 pound dog pulling me over mauling children or anything. 

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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> You don't have to leave or get emotional. The original question is when did you know you had a hard or soft dog. That's it. And just to clarify:
> *I do not let my dog bite my children.
> *I also do not allow my child to tease the dog, making the dog want to chase and bite her more. And have explained that things like high pitched noises and flailing arms get puppies excited to chase and bite.
> *I do not give physical corrections, aside from removing her from a situation at this time.
> ...


 

Good luck with your puppy!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Capone22 said:


> &#55357;&#56397; Ain't that the truth. Haha
> 
> Yes if she would have made contact on my daughter it would not have been good. But I was already preventing that with the long line. Instead of stepping on it I walked close to her to tell her no, make her sit and redirect her to the bone near my chair. So I put myself in the line of fire I guess.
> 
> ...


No but she soon will be a powerful 50 - 60 lbs + GSD!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

My Sting pulled that once at 8 months when he was 90 lbs- the glint in the eye then ram right at me. Fortunately I had a thick parka on. I was so ticked off - I alpha rolled him. He never did it again. I then worked with him and taught him (yes bite that tug I'm holding) no, when you feel the urge - I am not a decoy, nor is the cat. It didn't inhibit his bite - he loves tug and will bite hard down on the tugs. He just had to learn what he could bite at and what not. At 5 months, Sting was not as advanced your working line pup, but he still needed to learn - no chasing after the cat - no playing tug with the leash and so on. I know you posted as is this hard or soft - well, it is hard, in my viewpoint, but not acceptable for any pup. Your pup bit your daughter out hiking, now when you stop her and she hits the end of the leash - she turns and bites you. To be frank, this doesn't sound like you have a handle on the problem.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Capone22 said:


> I grabbed the leash just as she was going to jump at my daughter and said no. She hit the end of the leash pretty hard, giving herself a correction.. turned around and jumped and latched onto my bicep giving me the worst bite she has ever given me.


I'm curious (because I think this would provide the missing link for me) did your pup hit the end of the leash with impact, twist in the air and grab your arm? Or did your pup hit the end of the leash, recieve the correction, turn and run the length of the long lead towards you, leap and grab your arm?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious (because I think this would provide the missing link for me) did your pup hit the end of the leash with impact, twist in the air and grab your arm? Or did your pup hit the end of the leash, recieve the correction, turn and run the length of the long lead towards you, leap and grab your arm?


I am wondering the same thing. 

Last fall I had Kyleigh on a tie out in the front yard while I was gardening. She was about 6 or 7 months old and all of a sudden a squirrel came REALLY close to her. She took off after the squirrel ... as I'm yelling LEAVE IT, and running to her. She definitely hit the end of the tie out and popped back (almost flipped over) and I was right in her path ... she bit me, and good!

BUT, I didn't do a thing about it because I figured it was "reflex" mouth popping closed? Or something like that ... 

She never has gone after another squirrel while on her tie out tho!


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