# Ninja Update [Was Dangerous Aggression -- Fearing the Worst ]



## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Sorry I have been away. In addition to being a GSD owner I also have a full time job and in addition to that, I also Pastor a church here in PA (which is another full time job). It was the second job that took me away. A Member of ours was in a life or death struggle with Stage 4 Cancer -- and that took precedence over any dog issue I had...

I didn't get a chance to read through the (Now) locked thread. I'm guessing that it turned a little ugly -- but well, it's the internet. It happens more often than not. 

OK... so with that out of the way, let me do a quick catch up.

First off, Ninja is still alive. He turns 4 this month. I would say right now that his chances of seeing his 4th Birthday are about 50/50. But I'm trying.

After a lot of further research, I am hoping that this is a Thyroid problem. My challenge is getting the blood sample to confirm it. But I am working on that.

Since the last thread post, Ninja has attacked me one more time. This time it was after play. I was walking to the door, and he got right under my feet (he has some real personal space issues!) and I stepped on his paw. It was a glancing blow, but it set him off. (I think it was exacerbated by having just run, and I'm betting he was sore.) 

Fortunately, I had a towel in one hand, so I backed up, wrapped it around my left hand, let him attack that and grabbed his collar with my right. As usual, held him for a bit. Rage passed. We were fine. (Except the cuts on my hand of course.) 

I know what half of you are thinking: If you have the collar, choke him out. Hold him until he passes out and when he comes to, your problem will be solved.

To that I will say: Yes and no. I do think that eventually that would make him stop attacking me. However, he has shown the willingness to divert an attack to someone else, so that really wouldn't solve my problem.

I seriously thought about putting him down again after that. As I mentioned above my days were just shot, and I was pretty emotionally spent as well. I just couldn't deal with this. I had two friends who were hunters and they both offered to end him with a bullet. Since the medical route was a bust, I placed some calls. Well, little surprise, talking about it and actually doing it was two different things. So... back to trying to solve the problem.

As my schedule eased up, I started looking into other options. I found a vet who supposedly specialized in High drive K9s (did several police dogs in the area...) and I called them and made an appointment. I told them that what I really NEEDED was a blood sample drawn and sent to Hemopet. That is probably the leading lab for dealing with Thyroid tests. It is run by Dr. Dodds who literally wrote the book on Thyroid Disorder (I book that I know own and have read.)

They said no problem. Bring him over and we can deal with him.

Yeah. Right. Sure. 

So, I get him in the Jeep and head over. He is loving being in the Jeep again (I used to take him to the ball field to play with him in that Jeep.) So excited! Like old times. Until we pull into the parking lot of the Vets. Now, I'm no dummy. I pull past the building into the rear of the parking lot that is next to an open lot. 

But Ninja's no dummy either. When I go to the back door to get him out, he retreats as far away from me as possible. He has *never *done this before. Of course, he has never been here before. But he knows. Somehow, he knows.

He is wearing his E-Collar. (Because he always has that on him whenever he goes out to play -- one of the few good things I have ever stuck with. He goes through the roof excited whenever I unplug it. Never an issue getting the eCollar on him. He wears it from morning to night every day.)

Any other collar though... no dice. Not the Martingale. Not the slip collar. Nothing. 

The vet comes out to see if she can help. She is a 20-something vet fresh out of school. I'm thinking, they have to be kidding. She probably doesn't weigh as much as Ninja. But she is calm, and he comes to her. She offers him treats which he isn't about to take. I think maybe I can get him out. But he's too wary. If I approach with the lead or a collar, he backs away again.

At one point, I reach in to him, talking calmly, trying to slip the lead on him, and that's when he moves from Fright to Fight and comes at me full force. Fortunately, I have a Jeep door between us (I was reaching through the rear window.) So I back off far enough he doesn't get me, and after snarling at me a few times for good measure, he goes back into the rear of the Jeep.

The vet says the have Rabies poles. The can loop him like a wild animal and get a shot in him that will put him out. But, she suggests if I want to save him, that isn't probably the best bet.

At this point I still would like to save the son-of-a-bitch. But, I have to say with every attack it gets harder. 

So we decide to regroup. She gives me a prescription for Valium (for the dog, not me, although...) and the plan is to keep him mellow for 5 to 7 days and then give him an extra dose before I bring him back again. The thinking is that if we mellow him out enough he won't care that someone is reaching in the side door, and they can get a shot in him, at which time it is nighty night, and we can get the blood sample.

OK, so this is weird to me on a couple of levels. For one thing, I get the prescritpion filled at my pharmacy. I mean... For_ cryin-out-loud_! I have to show my Driver's License to get Advil Cold and Sinus, but I can get Freakin' Valium for my _dog_? Who, I will point out, doesn't drive, and doesn't even have a picture ID...

But it works. They just add him to my account, and there it is. Amazing.

OK, so the plan is two pills a day one morning, one night. Then the day of, in addition, right before he hops in the Jeep, two more. 

I decide to work him up to it. I give him 1 the next morning. Oh my. That is sad. He's a highly athletic dog so to see him walking into walls and things is kind of heart breaking. But he's out of all effects between four and six hours after. So, I give him a half a pill the next time -- trying to find a happy mellow spot, not fall down drunk. 

Half of a pill does absolutely nothing. I call the vet. My concern is that it isn't just that he has less, I am concerned he might be developing a tolerance. If that is the case, shouldn't I give him _nothing _until the day of and then go for two and two?

She tells me she wants him to have a level and that it will help. I'm suspicious because if he is throwing it in 6 hours, giving him 2 pills a day isn't doing anything -- except maybe giving him bruises from running into chairs.

But I try it again. On Thursday I did a dry run of everything. His appointment was on Friday and I didn't want to get there and have to abort again. I wanted to _know _that it would work. I figure I can give it to him and do something that would trigger him to get excited and see what happens. 

Well, the first two pills in the morning seem to have no effect. The next two -- two hours later -- do hit him hard though. He's pretty sloppy. Dragging his paws when he walks. Leaning on walls for support. Sad really.

But the UPS man comes by with a package, and it's bye-bye valium, hello Prince Valiant. He's barking. Running to the door (OK, he trips a little, but it is still a pretty fair imitation of Uber Guard dog in action)

I call the vet to abort Friday's mission. We need to rethink dosages clearly. No one would get near this dog with a needle on only the 2 and 2 plan.

So now we're scheduled for Wednesday.

I need to figure out the right dosage by then. If any of you have ever had your GSDs on Valium, I'd love to hear your experiences with it. I need to figure out how much I can hit him with without damaging him.

But the fact is, we're running out of time... Tonight we almost had another incident.

We were between valium doses (He had one about 10AM, and hadn't had the evening dose yet). My daughter was upstairs and asked me to throw her a bottle of water. I went to the foot of the stairs (Ninja right with me of course, he follows me everywhere). I threw the first one, and I could tell he went on alert but didn't pay too much attention because whatever was he on alert for? The second bottle was too much -- with a growl, he started charging up the stairs at my daughter. Fortunately, she was two steps from her room, so she got inside and slammed the door. But I was shocked.

Up until now, I would have told you that I saw every trigger that caused Ninja's rage. But I cannot tell you what this was about. Thankfully it was a non-attack. But things like this make me think I am stupid to even try. I should just go the vet, tell them to get the rabies poles and just look the other way.

But a very large part of me just wants to know what was the cause of all of this. Even if I end up having to put him down, I have to know what turns this otherwise amazing dog into a raging lunatic.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

" I could tell he went on alert but didn't pay too much attention because whatever was he on alert for?"


Not that I know much about this and your particular situation......but why does it matter " whatever was he on alert for?" If the process generally evolves from that moment into one where the dog is going gonzo...I'd grab the moment where you have an opportunity to make it a learning experience.

If you been there and done it...... my apologies.

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, at this point your dog is drugged. He be reacting to normal things because normal is now abnormal. I know the valium I temporary, until we can get the blood drawn. But can't you just put a muzzle on the dog, take it to the vet, and have them slightly sedate the dog so they can draw blood? 

I mean, the dog will do a lot better if it happens and is over with rather than building up and building up.


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm sorry you are going through this. I hope you can get that test done soon. Before something else happens, yes, but also it is important to diagnosis a thyroid problem as quickly as possible. I don't really understand the vet wanting to wait like this, you'd think they'd be able to suggest a dose that would work and get er done! What happens when you muzzle your dog? Can you get him used to a muzzle? It doesn't really take too long to teach a dog to wear a muzzle. Put the muzzle on before getting in the car to go to the vet maybe?

I read your last thread, or some of it but don't remember, do they think it could be rage syndrome or seizure activity?

You mention in another post that the vets have been telling you if it was thyroid he'd be lethargic and fat. My dog is hypothyroid, before she was diagnosed she was anything but lethargic and fat, full of energy and not at all fat. 
Good Luck, I hope all works out for you.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Why isn't he wearing a muzzle and leash in the car? Shut the end of the leash in the door so it doesn't get lost & just pull him out...?


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

I agree with Thecowboysgirl that he should be wearing a muzzle. Consider getting a Jafco #4 hard plastic muzzle. It fits GSDs and is very good for aggressive dogs. It runs between $26 and $28 dollars, a little more if you get the extra security strap which it sounds like you should have. It would be a very good investment for someone in your situation.

A muzzle would keep you, your family and guests safe and give you more time to work things out if that is what you choose to do. It will help with tests and treatments at the vet. He should be wearing it unless he is eating. He can drink water with it on. If you give him treats, there is one with a "treat hole" in it. Make sure to give him some good play time and work time with the muzzle on so he will associate it with good things. There are GSDs that have to wear a muzzle a great deal of the time.

Jean Dodds is excellent. I am glad you are getting the test for him.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If it were my dog, for starters, I would quit monkeying around with the dosages of meds prescribed by the vet. She has trained for years to subscribe these meds safely.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

From reading earlier posts I began to think that this extreme superstition was created in the dog (mis)using the e collar.

And so the dog acting erratically for years.

The tool is not a magic wand, and if it was me trying to, in any way, help this dog, I'd lose the collar and go back to basics. Considering your so busy, means you might not have the time or the dog knowledge to do that. 

It is probably hard now too, as the behaviors are present for so long. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting some fault from the perspective of an owner. It is probably a good thing. Stop blaming the dog or looking for medical reasons to his condition. 

Try to find an experienced professional and explain all the history and how you used the tool over the dogs life. I'm sure pros like Tyler Muto will give your dog a chance to recover or rehab if your really wishing to help this dog. Something productive needs to be done.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Where are you from Mark


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Not going to answer everything, but a couple of things:

First, Where am I from? As in country? State? Mind-set? I live in Pittsburgh, PA area. Was also born here. 

*Muzzle:*
I have a muzzle for him. A Dean and Tyler basket that is really expensive. You can all be forgiven for not reading the whole (previous) post, but I only had that on him one time, and it didn't go well, so now he is hyper vigilant against them. Although, selzer makes a valid point, I might be able to get it on him when he is doped on Valium. Probably can. If I act fast. Hate doing it because I have worked so hard to build up trust, but on the other hand, the other option is killing him, so I guess losing a little trust is preferred.

My issue is: I can't leave him in the muzzle 24/7. It will take 24-48 hours to get the lab results back. During that time, I need to deal with him and he needs to trust me. He is around me all the time. Trust is a big thing. But, I may just have to find away around all of that.



GSD2 said:


> I don't really understand the vet wanting to wait like this, you'd think they'd be able to suggest a dose that would work and get er done!
> 
> I read your last thread, or some of it but don't remember, do they think it could be rage syndrome or seizure activity?
> 
> ...


GSD2: I agree with the waiting thing. Makes no sense. Supposedly it was to build up a level. But that really doesn't make sense to me since he has no effects after 6 hours, so what level can there be? The vet is young and I don't think she knows what she is doing. I think she is going to the senior vet, getting advice, and then parroting it back to me. The Senior vet is supposed to call me today. Hopefully then I can get real answers...

"*They*" don't know what it is. The vet's take is: we'll give you suggestions, and then try whatever you want to try. When you're done trying, we'll put him down for you. I think when you get to where I am with Ninja no one really knows anything and everyone is afraid of giving bad advice in case he goes berserk and really hurts someone and they get sued. (Except for the internet of course! People feel free to give all sorts of advice on here! :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2

And I'm glad to hear about your dog and its thyroid. I'm holding out hope that this is the issue. The concern is of course that even if it is, he has learned behavior now, so the aggression may not go away, even if the trigger gets removed.

If it isn't the thyroid, though, I will have no choice but to put him down. And that will be a sad day.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

BTW: Current Ninja pic, just because:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

He is such a beautiful dog. What was the deal with the breeder again? Will they help? What are his lines like? Have you ever posted his pedigree? Maybe there is some insight there?


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

llombardo said:


> He is such a beautiful dog. What was the deal with the breeder again? Will they help? What are his lines like? Have you ever posted his pedigree? Maybe there is some insight there?


The actual breeder is a mom and pop place in West Virginia. They are no help lat all. They said they would be. When I got him, they said they never wanted one of "their dogs" to end up in a pound, so to always call them if I couldn't keep him.

I called them after the first attack. They were shocked because the follow me on facebook, and I am one of those nuts who posts more dog pictures than anything. 

When I told them that Ninja not only bit me but attacked me, and described the first attack, they basically said that they wished me luck, but couldn't help me. The interesting thing is that one of Ninja's littermates was taken to be a service dog, and he failed out of the training. Why? No drive. They couldn't teach him anything. Ninja has every drive known to man plus a few never discovered. Same litter? Wow. Eenie-Meeney-Miney-Moe -- we could have picked the couch potato. This is why I am thinking it might be genetic. Both sides of that spectrum are weird to me.

They bought their dogs from a well known breeder in the Northwest, and I have resisted naming them because I don't _know _this is genetic. Yet.

His bloodlines look solid. Working dog lines. Maybe I should scan his Line and post it. Like I said, I've resisted because I would hate to make baseless claims.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MarkJoel60 said:


> The actual breeder is a mom and pop place in West Virginia. They are no help lat all. They said they would be. When I got him, they said they never wanted one of "their dogs" to end up in a pound, so to always call them if I couldn't keep him.
> 
> I called them after the first attack. They were shocked because the follow me on facebook, and I am one of those nuts who posts more dog pictures than anything.
> 
> ...




I only ask about his lines, because lots of people here might see something in those lines that didn't match up for breeding or maybe even see where a dog of this caliber came from. I can't do it, but I've seen it done on here. Some people know if a breeding is good or not.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't want to be one of those internet advice givers, because without seeing the dog in action, advice on actually working the dog can't be super helpful.

Are you willing to drive him to a trainer who works with aggression cases?

Bailiff on here is just one who could at least give you a fair evaluation and long-term plan, but there are probably some good trainers closer to you. 

My advice, if you want to work with him and keep him alive, is to get Ninja to a trainer who is experienced in aggression and knows what they are doing for a board and train or at the minimum an evaluation. 

I don't think thyroid will get you anywhere. I am wary of looking for zebras when you hear hoofbeats. 

I agree your vet is not going to be helpful, most likely. I have found it is very worthwhile going to a vet who at least has some experience with working dogs of some kind. It makes a big difference. 

But the vet is much less important than finding a good trainer and getting in for a evaluation. You've gone this far with your dog, at least get an expert's opinion. 

In the meantime, I wouldn't have this dog anywhere near your kids.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

To add, feel free to post pedigree but it doesn't matter right now. All that matters is the dog in front of you and the behaviors you are having issues with. Who cares what the genetics are. I could pick apart my dog's pedigree and say he got his civil from here and his ball drive from here. Who cares. I train the dog in front of me. Were I choosing a pup, or choosing a stud, pedigree would matter much more.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can't do anything for this dog without a skilled, competent and experienced trainer used to handling dog aggression. Health reasons or not, once a dog shows this kind of aggression toward the owner, it's not going to go away with a thyroid pill. I don't remember why you were using an ecollar, but that is only a tool. If used correctly, it can be a good training mechanism, if not, you can have serious problems.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So is it too dangerous to try and condition him to wear the muzzle? Is he food motivated? I mean if you can't get a muzzle on him how in the world is the vet staff supposed to draw blood safely?

I rarely put in any effort myself in teaching dogs to put their nose in a muzzle, I just shape it with a clicker and good treats. 

I mean, if he is too dangerous to teach him to wear a muzzle.....I just don't know other than maybe send him to board and train with someone really, REALLY good, like someone that all of the most experienced ppl on this forum agree is a really well respected trainer?

Tyler Muto?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

But heaven forbid you send a dog like this to the wrong person for board and train, which is why I am stressing so much to vet the heck out of the trainer first.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm in NC and do cases like Ninja fairly regularly. It would be a heck of a ride down here but it's an option on the table if you want. John Soares is probably closer to you. Not sure if he deals with cases like yours but worth a call. 

Evaluation wise we don't know what you're working with till we see the dog. Generally cases like this are a dog that is fearful and has learned to use its teeth to relieve pressure it feels from some outside source. Assuming the dog isn't completely wired wrong and unpredictable it's generally good outcomes from cases like that. How old is the dog?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wasn't there something suspicious about this dog's hind end? Have you ever had him x rayed or examined by a vet for any pain issue that may be contributing? I guess at this point it isn't much if an option because you can't even get him a blood draw.

Pain will definitely make animals nasty.

You have considered euthanizing him. My personal opinion is that if you want to keep him alive you have got to get him to somebody who can handle him. None of this is meant judgmentally or in a hurtful way....but you are not able to put a muzzle on him, not able to get him out of the car for a vet visit. This isn't working and it isn't safe. 

If this dog needed to see a vet for an acutal injury or illness I guess he couldn't? It's go time. Gotta find competent help either locally or not just be SO careful who you hire.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bailif I think he said the dog is turning 4


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> I'm in NC and do cases like Ninja fairly regularly. It would be a heck of a ride down here but it's an option on the table if you want. John Soares is probably closer to you. Not sure if he deals with cases like yours but worth a call.
> 
> Evaluation wise we don't know what you're working with till we see the dog. Generally cases like this are a dog that is fearful and has learned to use its teeth to relieve pressure it feels from some outside source. Assuming the dog isn't completely wired wrong and unpredictable it's generally good outcomes from cases like that. How old is the dog?


A little background on OP and his dog from prior threads. This is the same dog from his past threads that he wanted to use a choker on as a 14 week puppy because: "he HATES putting the buckle collar on him (actually it was one of those plastic clip ons) because it takes forever to get it on." He had trouble "walking" his leashed puppy back then. He was having problems with control and biting him at four months and felt he was being too much Shepherd and he could not wait until the puppy turned six months so he could slap an e collar on him. This poster took a previous GSD thru Sch obedience training: "thanks to an excellent trainer who did much of the work" but never finished the other aspects. I doubt you will get him to John Soares from Pittsburgh. From his threads regarding help with his dog: "but it takes so much time, I am not sure I can do it."


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Things take a lot of time when you do them wrong. There is a lot of bad advice out there that pervades dog training especially on the internet but even amongst many professional trainers. When you're working with this kind of information and you have an aggressive dog, perhaps one you're even a little afraid of because it bites or it seems to snap out of seemingly nowhere with no rhyme or reason it seems like a huge daunting task where you maybe make one step forward and seem to take three steps back. It is a paralyzing kind of thing. Really all of this probably came out of lack of knowledge, and the problem just compounded and compounded as the dog practiced maladaptive behaviors. 

I get it. Not every dog is easy. There are some out there that are harder than others but in general when youre doing things right things progress pretty quickly. It is tough to want to make a hail mary for a dog like this when its gone after you and attacked you even though youre caring for him and feeding him, and it just seems like the animal is a bad seed or ungrateful, but chances are the OP created the behaviors hes seeing now without realizing it, or at least magnified them through practice. The problem with most dogs is the human at the other end of the leash.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Really the reason I am not afraid of aggression cases like this is because I am armed with knowledge about the nature of the animal itself. I know why they do what they do. I can see them about to react way before they go there. I can set up situations to ensure my own safety while working with the animal. I know how to stop them from doing the things I don't want them doing and do what I would rather see them do instead. I've seen dogs the size of a Pomeranian hold an entire family hostage in fear in their own home. Would never happen if people knew how to handle the animal.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sounds like Baillif is the way to go to get the answers you need. It would be worth the trip. Wish you the best of luck.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

OP, please do contact Bailiff, and either bring your dog to him or someone he recommends. I strongly feel your money is better spent seeing an experienced skilled trainer than on vet bills.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MarkJoel,
You could reach out to Shallow Creek Kennels. They are outside of Pittsburgh, so not too far from you. They have experience with aggressive dogs. They supply dogs to LE the Military. If nothing else they could evaluate your dog and point you in the right direction.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Shallow creek imports trained and semi trained dogs from Europe for resale - it is near New Castle.....I suggested a vet apx 45 miles and that seemed to be viewed as a long trip - New Castle is another 40....I think the OP will sign over the dog to someone who would work through the issues and not want him back from posts here 

So many people in this area seem reluctant to go more than 10 -15 miles from home for ANYTHING - not just dog people - this is not the most well laid out city/geographical area - but it is really strange how people seem to think 30-50 miles is the other end of the world.



Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> Shallow creek imports trained and semi trained dogs from Europe for resale - it is near New Castle.....I suggested a vet apx 45 miles and that seemed to be viewed as a long trip - New Castle is another 40....I think the OP will sign over the dog to someone who would work through the issues and not want him back from posts here
> 
> So many people in this area seem reluctant to go more than 10 -15 miles from home for ANYTHING - not just dog people - this is not the most well laid out city/geographical area - but it is really strange how people seem to think 30-50 miles is the other end of the world.
> 
> ...


I hope you are right, I get the feeling that it will be OP's way or no way and that does not bode well for Ninja.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I hope you are right, I get the feeling that it will be OP's way or no way and that does not bode well for Ninja.


 
That makes me sad.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> Shallow creek imports trained and semi trained dogs from Europe for resale - it is near New Castle.....I suggested a vet apx 45 miles and that seemed to be viewed as a long trip - New Castle is another 40....I think the OP will sign over the dog to someone who would work through the issues and not want him back from posts here


Wow, Lee. I sure did not expect that. 

First off, Cranberry is a little over an hour from me -- just to the turnpike exit, no telling how far to the vets. Secondly, if you knew how car rides jacked him up, you'd understand why I would want to keep travel to a minimum. Third, I said that if the current vet -- who works with Police K-9s and high drive dogs and who is only 20 minutes from me -- doesn't work out, I'd have to consider the Cranberry option.

Did not expect you to use something said in private to throw me under the bus in public. 

Why I expected better I am not sure. But I did.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Wow, Lee. I sure did not expect that.
> 
> First off, Cranberry is a little over an hour from me -- just to the turnpike exit, no telling how far to the vets. Secondly, if you knew how car rides jacked him up, you'd understand why I would want to keep travel to a minimum. Third, I said that if the current vet -- who works with Police K-9s and high drive dogs and who is only 20 minutes from me -- doesn't work out, I'd have to consider the Cranberry option.
> 
> ...


Here is how I see it. You have been offered info/access to some good trainers. Toss him a couple of valium, load his limp butt into a sturdy crate in your jeep and take him to them. Or do the same and get him to a vet for blood work if you must.
We are talking about a dog who is randomly attacking his owner. If you want to save this dogs life, as you insist you do, be prepared for it to not go down pretty and clean. You need to stop babying him and do what you need to do.

I don't want to be mean, I just want you to face reality. I want this to work out for the dog, and for you.

I fostered a dog that attacked. I spent a month wedging his head in a door, to get a muzzle on him and have two of us in heavy jackets and work gloves carry his fighting ass outside so he could run in a large enclosure for a few hours before repeating the process to get him back to the basement. He mangled my right forearm and put a seven inch gash in my rib cage before it got to that point. Before that he used to curl up on my pillow next to my face and snarl at me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Wow, Lee. I sure did not expect that.
> 
> First off, Cranberry is a little over an hour from me -- just to the turnpike exit, no telling how far to the vets. Secondly, if you knew how car rides jacked him up, you'd understand why I would want to keep travel to a minimum. Third, I said that if the current vet -- who works with Police K-9s and high drive dogs and who is only 20 minutes from me -- doesn't work out, I'd have to consider the Cranberry option.
> 
> ...



I am sorry - I was not intending you to be thrown under a bus!!!! I don't think saying that it was a long way from your home was throwing you under a bus....and I think you stated over and over that car rides were a big issue.....maybe I mixed up some info apparently.....but you posted that you would be willing to give him up to someone who understood him??? and could help him....- and I don't think Shallow Creek is really a training facility

Again, my apologies - I was NOT trying to demean you.....

Lee


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Wow, Lee. I sure did not expect that.
> 
> First off, Cranberry is a little over an hour from me -- just to the turnpike exit, no telling how far to the vets. Secondly, if you knew how car rides jacked him up, you'd understand why I would want to keep travel to a minimum. Third, I said that if the current vet -- who works with Police K-9s and high drive dogs and who is only 20 minutes from me -- doesn't work out, I'd have to consider the Cranberry option.
> 
> ...


These types of topics are so frustrating. You already have your mind made up. You argue with people who try to help you. I get it, no one wants to admit they have created a problem they can't solve. But after reading this entire thread, it sounds like this is a problem you don't have the time or experience to fix and you aren't sure what to do. What do you really want to do and what outcome do you expect to have? I'm not getting a real sense of where you are.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree. 

You are in over your head. Sorry. But a low thyroid is not the "answer" yes, he may be low thyroid, but this behavior and how it is handled are bigger than that. 

You and your family are not capable of handling and retraining this dog, without serious, and I mean intense and serious help. 

So you have a few choices. 

Put him to sleep. 

Find a trainer, Bailiff has offered, but it's probably a 10 hour drive. And do everything exactly as they say. Expensive and time intensive, but the dogs only chance to stay with the family. If you can ever trust him again. 

And we'll that's it. Sorry. 

This dog has not just bitten, it has ATTACKED you, on multiple occasions. You have children to think about, a life to live. No matter this dogs true issue, you are in no place to handle it. 

You need to make a decision. If you are dead set on getting thyroid checked, put the dog in a crate in the car, drive him to the vet, and let them pole him, sedate him and get the dang blood. Hemming and hawing and trying to find the right dose is going to end badly. 

You are worried about the dog trusting you? He doesn't trust you now. Moot point. Get it done and make an informed decision.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Just throwing it out there but some trainers will travel (limited distance and expenses paid) to where you are to evaluate the dog in your home, maybe something to consider ?


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Sorry for the double post but I was just looking up a few Vet Clinics in my area and a few Vets will also do house calls so that might be worth a phone call. Now I'm in Canada so maybe it's not the same where you live


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We're catering a lot to what jacks this dog up.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Well, four pages of posts. Last thread made 5... so we're about there. Admins, you can lock this thread if you want.

A few things, and then I'm going to stop reading/responding:

1. I've been called argumentative in this thread. I'm not sure where. I think I took an awful lot of criticism without saying a thing. Yes, when things I said in a private PM were made public I may have lost my cool a bit. So if that's what you are referring to, I can only say, I just wait until that happens to you... 

2. What did I expect when I opened this thread? Nothing really. I fully expected 50% of the posts to be: "You're an idiot who doesn't know how to raise a German Shepherd, please never buy another one", about 20% to be: "Oh this is awful, I am so sorry" and another 25% to be: "please OP, don't give up yet, I'm sure the _next _trainer will be able to help you." It was the last 5% that I was hoping for. Someone who maybe could give me something I hadn't considered yet.

3. The other reason I opened my thread again is that I know a lot of people read without posting at all. Some of them are dealing with a situation like Ninja right now. They would never post here because they see what happens to those who are honest about their problems on here. I know this is true, because I have had some PMs from some of them. My heart goes out to all of them. If my public discussion about what I am going through with Ninja can help anyone stumbling onto this thread in the future, I am happy I posted. What I would say to them is this: Trust your instincts. You know your dog better than anyone on here who has never seen your dog. 

4. Recently, I answered someone in a PM who was trying to encourage me to keep trying. Since, apparently what I say in private is perfectly fine to share in public, let me go ahead and share my answer to them here:



> I don't think there is going to be a miraculous solution. The Thyroid issue is a Hail Mary pass at the end of a game that I expect to lose.
> 
> But Ninja is not normal. Whatever this is was not a result of being a bad owner or bad training -- not to say mistakes weren't made along the way. By far the biggest mistake was not recognizing that Ninja was different than the other GSDs I've owned. I should have responded to it much sooner.
> 
> ...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I haven't read everything but I have read enough to give my personal opinion.

I think the kindest thing to do for this dog and the safest thing to do for people is to euthanize this dog. Some dogs cannot be saved and some dogs shouldn't be saved. JMO


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree that is it brave of the OP to post here. There are always experts on forums who are willing to judge. I'm not judging. In my opinion the OP has done more than most people would for his dog. 

But if you are looking for a magic pill, there is none. The ONLY solution when it has gone as far as Ninja is a trainer skilled in working with dog aggression. That is it. 

So it's not a matter of take your dog to just ONE more trainer. It's a matter of finding a trainer with the skills and experience in working with this type of dog. 

The issue is, most trainers, the vast majority of "trainers", do not know how to deal with a dog like Ninja. 

Ninja isn't that unique. I skimmed the older thread. Nothing there shouts "crazy". It bothers me when people say, oh but MY dog is just super duper insane so I can't do a thing with him. I haven't seen any dogs that are insane yet. A bit crazy, sure. But not so insane they can't be worked with to be safe. 

I recommend Bailiff on this forum, but I'm not going to say he's the only one in the country who can help you, I'm sure there are other great trainers out there. 

Thing is, as the OP already discovered, the vast majority of trainers don't have a clue about aggressive dogs. I find this to be true again and again. They'll just bow out and tell you to kill the dog. 

I don't know how much the OP is willing to spend, but if you want to at least give Ninja a chance, dope him up on Valium, take a long weekend, and get him to a trainer with a proven track record. And then work with that trainer extensively on follow up.

You want to save Ninja? That is the only way. There is no magical ground up unicorn horn you can feed Ninja that will change him. He needs to work with a good, highlight good, trainer.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> They would never post here because they see what happens to those who are honest about their problems on here. I know this is true, because I have had some PMs from some of them. My heart goes out to all of them.


People post here everyday about aggression issues and get good advice. The forum is well moderated too. Anybody with aggression issues can read through the old threads and get advice that way too. Probably what a lot of people do. 

What you will get if you post is peoples opinions. And they won't be always what you want to hear. But you can get some perspective in issues and as well as someone else experiences of being in a similar situation.

I'm sure the pros usually out weigh the cons on the question of posting or not. If people are looking for solutions it can't hurt too bad. 

Generally we need to look beyond the 'issues' and try to learn more about dog behavior to try cure our dogs when they go bad. What does a dog need to be content in the environment we make them live in?




> If my public discussion about what I am going through with Ninja can help anyone stumbling onto this thread in the future, I am happy I posted.


What did you learn through the experience? whats your advice to help others? Would you have changed your initial approach now 4 years later?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Look, 

We can tell you, "put the dog down." But you don't want to hear that, and there are members here that will come on and tell you to try a bajillion other things with this dog because they think every dog is salvageable. 

So someone suggested a trainer that would work with the dog. It seems you have totally discounted that. Maybe too far away -- that's ok. If you truly believe that this is not a training issue, than put the dog down, or wait for the tests. 

It is frustrating to me that you are letting the dog determine what you will or won't have done with him. Waiting weeks to do blood work??? Not on your life. If I am afraid I wont be able to control the dog, I would muzzle it. To heck with trust. The dog needs a test and the less baloney you go through to complete that test, the quicker the dog will get over it. But you have put a muzzle on the dog once and he didn't like it, so...

Some people come on here with their list of issues, and then they have four lists of excuses for every suggestion that comes their way. It is frustrating for BOTH sides here because I don't think people do that on purpose. But it still happens. 

Dog gets jacked up in the car, tough. Crate him, drug him, do what you need to do to get him where he needs to be. Or put the poor thing down. 

C'mon, he isn't a happy dog. He is not in a good place. Yes this can be related to a medical condition. Not just thyroid. Could be B-vitamin deficiency. Could be a form of epilepsy/rage syndrome -- they think is a form of epilepsy. Could be a brain tumor or swelling on the brain causing problems like these. Could be a genetic temperament issue that is what it is. Some of these -- no cure. It isn't the dog's fault, but yes, you can't sacrifice your daughter to keep your dog. 

It is not safe, nor truly ethical to rehome a dog like this. And it is not safe in your home. Make the appointment and either take you dog to the vet or have the vet come to your home, and put the dog down. The dog will be out of its pain, and the sooner it is done the quicker you can heal and move on. 

I know that sounds cold, but we have plenty of suggestions here. The only one who has the answer is you. 

I don't think this is rage syndrome because there are triggers. But I guess it is still possible. Maybe phenobarbital and or potassium bromide (?) would help a dog with rage syndrome. I really don't know if they have tried it for that. Pressure on the brain could cause the symptoms I guess. The thing is, really, does it matter at this point. Yeah if it is medical AND there is management or cure you would do that for your dog, give it a try. But if you can't even get the dog to the vet to be assessed, and will they be able to diagnose anything if the dog is totally drugged up?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

probably not helpful, but if I were you I'd put the dog down. You're probably never going to be able to trust him. Maybe get to the point of controlling him, but right now it sounds like nothing in his life is pleasant and you're constantly walking on pins and needles.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't think someone can judge whether a dog needs to be killed unless they've seen the dog in question.

Yes, if a dog was on his last legs physically and someone came on here for advice on quality of life, sure we could give our input. 

But I think telling someone to kill their healthy dog based on forum posts alone on the dog's behavior is not right. My opinion only, of course.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Muskeg said:


> I don't think someone can judge whether a dog needs to be killed unless they've seen the dog in question.
> 
> Yes, if a dog was on his last legs physically and someone came on here for advice on quality of life, sure we could give our input.
> 
> But I think telling someone to kill their healthy dog based on forum posts alone on the dog's behavior is not right. My opinion only, of course.


If a dog attacks me where I have bloody wounds, unless in breaking up a dog fight, I would probably put the dog down. If the dog attacked one of my nieces -- no question. 

We are talking about a dog with serious human aggression here. I think a lot of people would be of the opinion the dog should be euthanized. 

Sometimes you really do not need a full work up from a behaviorist. We are talking about a dog that the guy can't muzzle, can't take in the car, can't act ordinarily around other people in his house because it might set the dog off. No one should live with a ticking time bomb. We don't get a pet for that. 

Yes, I think people can suggest euthanasia. The owner of the dog has to make the ultimate decision. 

It is a hard decision, and people offering that as a suggestion if it were them, well, maybe it will make making that decision a little easier.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> We are talking about a dog that the guy can't muzzle, can't take in the car, can't act ordinarily around other people in his house because it might set the dog off.


This is why Muskeg is correct and nobody should be telling this man to put his dog down.

I went back and reread each and every post by OP on all threads. I did not come to the same conclusion as you. There is a big difference between can't and won't, and the way I see it, OP won't do any of the things you mentioned, not that he can't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is why Muskeg is correct and nobody should be telling this man to put his dog down.
> 
> I went back and reread each and every post by OP on all threads. I did not come to the same conclusion as you. There is a big difference between can't and won't, and the way I see it, OP won't do any of the things you mentioned, not that he can't.


 
He won't because he can't. He can't without the dog going berserk and biting him. And it isn't just bites, it is sustained attacks. A dog that bites out of pain or fear, once, even twice ok. A dog that attacks and causes damage to family members, I'm sorry. There are way too many dogs dying in shelters according to HSUS that are perfectly wonderful and have never bitten anyone, to try and find someone else who is willing to put up with a dog that is willing to attack the people he lives with. So, rehoming the dog shouldn't even be a question. Owning a dog that will attack you and attack your daughter, sorry that's an awful lot of liability there. 

Most dogs won't do this even if they have horrendous handlers. I mean even if people kick their dog and beat it they won't do this. Even if they dress it up in little tu tus and shove treats in its face when it acts like a nutcase -- they won't do this. Even if they alpha roll the dog that they have no bond with, they won't do this level of attacking. At least that is what it sounds like. Frodo wouldn't and he was WL. Jazzy wouldn't and she was WL. None of my show line dogs would do this. I'm not saying they won't bite, of course they may bite if terrified or in pain, but it isn't going to be an attack. 

In fact, I broke Karma's toe -- that had to hurt, and she yelped, but she didn't bite. Which leaves the I'm-the-king-of-the-mountain stuff. A dog that doesn't get the difference between dogs and humans, well I don't know if they are worth working with. Do some dogs just need to know that you have the power behind you to make them submit to your leadership? I don't know. I haven't experienced such a dog. Who would want to have to do battle with their dog. 

Could a different leader turn this dog around? Yes? No? Maybe? Could it then go back to its owner, with instructions and be perfectly safe? 

I think there is a point when you pull the plug. Where you don't put more time, and energy, and money into a dog. That point for me is when it is unsafe to be around people, especially people it ought to know and trust. 

It is an opinion. That is all. Just a keyboard jockey here who was raised by people who spouted sayings like "a good dog will not bite the hand that feeds it," and "a good dog will go and hide before biting a baby," and "a dog that bites a baby needs to be put down."

I am guessing the daughter is in her teens or tweens, because Daddies don't put up with much when it comes to daughters who are little. I understand the love for an animal, but most fathers will not tolerate a dog that bites a girl-child. Boys are a little different. A father might ask the boy what he did to the dog before taking action. Not sure whether the dog has drawn blood or not on the daughter. It seems that he was going for her though. And, this crap is beyond call a trainer. This is not puppy land sharking, or adolescent posturing. 

It is giving a bad name to shepherds. Why have GSDs made the top ten list in biting? Because the same dogs are biting over and over again. A dog like this isn't good as a pet and isn't good as a working dog. And letting another 6 months go by isn't going to make it any easier when the final decision is made. It is STILL going to hurt like ****. 

I feel sorry for the dog. I feel sorry that is thus afflicted. I feel bad for it like I would feel bad for a dog who lost the use of its back legs, or has hemangiosarcoma. I would love to see this guy make the ten hour trip to Bailiff and see if Bailiff can work some magic with the dog. I have little to no faith in this owner going out there and finding a good, experienced trainer, that can work with this dog on his own. You have to have quite a bit of experience to know whether the trainer is good or is just a good salesman.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

And then you have Jette from the other thread that was portrayed as a pyscho dog, just like this one. Who had a behaviorist intervene in person, assess the dog, and stated there simply was not anything wrong with the dog. The dog was being mishandled. And kill nation was out in force on that thread too, far worse than on this one. And what happened?

The owner adapted her expectations to the dog in front of her and voila! She came back to say most of the bad behaviors were gone or ameliorated and everything was hunky dory at home, no chance of rehoming or put to sleep.

And did not OP post that he literally allowed his dog to maul his hand? He fed his hand to it as an alternative to what he perceived might happen? Is this a psycho dog or a psycho...

Yes, Sue, this is why we don't get bit by our dogs, we don't let this happen.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

MarkJoel60 said:


> The actual breeder is a mom and pop place in West Virginia ... They bought their dogs from a well known breeder in the Northwest, and I have resisted naming them because I don't know if this is genetic. Yet. His bloodlines look solid. Working dog lines. Maybe I should scan his Line and post it. Like I said, I've resisted because I would hate to make baseless claims.





llombardo said:


> I only ask about his lines, because lots of people here might see something in those lines that didn't match up for breeding or maybe even see where a dog of this caliber came from. I can't do it, but I've seen it done on here. Some people know if a breeding is good or not.


Lombardo is correct. It might not be the lines per se but something that a more experienced breeder might not have put together. Breeding for good temperament, drive, etc. is really a science. It takes a solid knowledge of genetics and health, just to mention a couple of things. It might not be a reflection on where they bought the dogs from but on their own knowledge of breeding.


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