# Alpha rolling a puppy



## LJak07 (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi, I need some advice from fellow GSD owners, I signed up for training class, (we really need it for us as well as the pup) and we walked in, she attempted to put a pinch collar on my puppy and Ghost my 17 week old jumped back, the trainer immediately alpha rolled him, with him peeing and screaming onto his side, I was beyond freaked out and have been upset since about that. She then went on to explain why and how we should do this and entertained the class by describing all the ways the White Shepherd was a genetic mess and we couldn't have possibly waited another second for this training. Okay, so we are there and my husband is doing the training, I am observing because of hand surgery and we stuck it out because I have never been to a class before and I did not know what to expect (I have had many dogs but all but one have been rescues with little to no problems in this area and my Standard Poodle just came knowing everything at 8 weeks). Ghost appears to be, from my reading here, a typical GDS puppy but is a little shy and reserved in public and completely nuts at home. Ghost is my first GSD and while he displays all the traits typical of the GDS puppy he is so very lovely and sweet when mellow and tired. We stayed for the rest of the class after signing up for 8 full classes before all this happened and the trainer was actually very good in most respects except for this, and most of what she says makes sense with bolstering his confidence and she even did some fun agility with the puppies at the end of the class but even my big manly husband was almost in tears when he had to "hold him down" to get him to submit. I am not sure if my slightly crazy but unimaginably sweet little guy should ever have to deal with this again but since my trainer knowledge is limited I am not sure what to do. I have been in tears since and while Ghost seems to be okay I am unsure if this will harm him in the long run. We do need the training badly, we need direction as well as Ghost as he is about to get even more teenagery I could just use some advice. Of course he is spoiled, and loves to bite with no particular method that is helping to prevent it, the biting seems to wax and wane with the week. This is mostly the problem we are looking to get help with but the alpha roll seems so very harsh and scary for a young puppy. Thanks for your help in advance.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Find a new trainer/class. What the trainer did is unacceptable and misinformed.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Even if it means losing your money, DO NOT GO BACK. Your puppy does not need a prong collar (I'm NOT anti-prong - but on a 17 week old puppy?), and he should associate training with having FUN! Not with being attacked by a stranger, and pinned by Dad. 

Rolling dogs or pups is ill-advised. You do not have to prove that you are bigger and stronger by manhandling and restraining a pup by force. They KNOW that we are bigger and stronger, otherwise we would have a world-wide dog rebellion on our hands. The way to make a puppy want to listen, is by developing a strong bond, mutual respect, and using positive reinforcement in training. 

I am not againts corrections or discipline, but there is a time and place for it, and a specific way to incorporate those things into a training regimen. It is not through rolling, or being pinned by a stranger when just walking into a new place. Boggles the mind and it makes me mad that you guys were subjected to this.

I suggest you ask around for other trainers and classes in your area, and ask if you can go and observe some classes before you sign up and commit yourself. We have a saying at our club: No training is better than bad training! Let your pup be a spoiled brat a little bit longer until you find a trainer that you feel happy with - it will be better than subjecting him to inappropriate and highly-questionable 'training' (ahem!) methods.


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## LJak07 (Dec 17, 2015)

Thank you so much, my instincts are screaming the same thing, just needed some guidance. Of course I am going to see if I can get a partial refund at least or chalk it up to bad luck, she has a german shepherd and has had almost 40 years of training experience, that's why I picked her. :/ Thanks again.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

That "trainer" is an idiot. Walk away.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

LJak07 said:


> Thank you so much, my instincts are screaming the same thing, just needed some guidance. Of course I am going to see if I can get a partial refund at least or chalk it up to bad luck, she has a german shepherd and has had almost 40 years of training experience, that's why I picked her. :/ Thanks again.


She may be stuck in the way they did things 40 years ago....


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

LJak07 said:


> Thank you so much, my instincts are screaming the same thing, just needed some guidance. Of course I am going to see if I can get a partial refund at least or chalk it up to bad luck, she has a german shepherd and has had almost 40 years of training experience, that's why I picked her. :/ Thanks again.


Experience is one thing. Results are an entirely different thing. Find local Schutzhund clubs and talk to the members to see who they recommend. Many clubs have "in house" trainers that have achieved good results in large (national, even) competitions, and would be a much better option than some "pet trainer."


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## LJak07 (Dec 17, 2015)

Again, I can't thank you enough. My poor little guy. I think you are right, stuck in a time warp or something. I am just so upset, I feel like I let him down. Oh he's awful, terrible and monsterous and so very wonderful but he's only a baby still and I know he needs training but this was beyond anything.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

Oh no, that's sad. I hope you find a better class. I'm not "anti-anything" except deliberately scaring the crap out of a young dog (or an old dog).
Knowledge is power, and luckilly there is much to be found free on the internet. That will give you the power to say "no" when necessary, and be able to interview trainers before signing up. 
It's sounds like it all caught you off guard, we expect to trust the pro, but sometimes things go very bad. Had my own "bad trainer" experience and learned to look at all methods with a critical eye.
Sounds like you have a lovely dog, hope to see pics soon. I love a well-bred white shepherd; my first was from a white breeder and she was an awesome dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

One of our trainers in town will take any breeds into her classes but a white shepherd. Don't know why this is....


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That makes me so angry. I would report that person if the class is through a group or a business. I would also ask for a refund. They misrepresented the training as a class not an abuse session. No one abuses my dog, and that's just what was done to yours. Mine is 5 months and not completely on board with his puppy class but no one there would ever do anything so stupid, so we are sticking it out.

One Alpha roll won't ruin him. My older dog alpha rolls my puppy sometimes and he tolerates it, but she is teaching him. I wouldn't do it, but hers hasn't hurt him. I don't see the point of what the teacher did or why, but he has already gotten over it. Use it as a wake up call for you to find another trainer.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"She then went on to explain why and how we should do this and entertained the class by describing all the ways the White Shepherd was a genetic mess and we couldn't have possibly waited another second for this training."

This also seems inappropriate to me. Why assume that a dog is a genetic mess, point it out in front of the entire class, and automatically alpha roll it? Even if wgsd are having issues with bad breeding, that's no guarantee that every onw you meet is messed up? 

in my opinion, your dog deserves someone who will train the dog in front of them not a stereotype.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wow...

RUN. RUN FAST. RUN FAR!

Where are you located? I'm sure someone here can recommend a good trainer.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Did she encourage this with all the dogs or just yours?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Couple of links first on finding a competant qualified trainer local to you:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

And what to look for in a training class:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7569801-post70.html

And as others have said ...don't go back! Welcome aboard.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

LJak07 said:


> Hi, I need some advice from fellow GSD owners, I signed up for training class, (we really need it for us as well as the pup) and we walked in, she attempted to put a pinch collar on my puppy and Ghost my 17 week old jumped back, the trainer immediately alpha rolled him


I would have knocked this **** out right here.



LJak07 said:


> Hi, I need some advice from fellow GSD owners, I signed up for training class, (we really need it for us as well as the pup) and we walked in, she attempted to put a pinch collar on my puppy


Though right here I would be like hold on I'd like to communicate before you start placing or using a tool on my dog.

You do not need a trainer there is so much free information out there to train a dog just put some effort in finding it and making it work for you. Is a Prong a great tool? Yes. When used properly but A person whose character gives her the gull to touch my dog in such a manner I wouldn't trust. Im gonna keep reading.

p.s You're a trainer but I'm his owner he is like a car anything you want to do to him I have to sign off on or no dice.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

"She then went on to explain why and how we should do this and entertained the class by describing all the ways the White Shepherd was a genetic mess and we couldn't have possibly waited another second for this training."

This demonstrates that this 'trainer' enjoys being the center of attention, is unconcerned with facts and has a bias against white GSDs. You can believe she would be certain to make you and your dog the "bad example" for the remaining class sessions. 

Personally, I'd have left the place upon hearing that remark, much less her physical abuse of your pup. If there's a management structure she has to answer to, I'd inform them, very politely, of this entire incident and look for another outfit.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Is there any chance you are from NW Ohio? Sounds so much like the first trainer I took Tessa to. The first thing they told the class to do was Alpha Roll these tiny pups..Yikes


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> Is there any chance you are from NW Ohio? Sounds so much like the first trainer I took Tessa to. The first thing they told the class to do was Alpha Roll these tiny pups..Yikes


Well I don't know maybe it's like lifting a Calf when your young??

You grow stronger and as the Calf becomes a Cow you'll still be able to lift it??? 

But in all seriousness that trainer is "insane!" Future "my dog bit my face" threads in the making! Best to stay clear of that guy and his "methods!"


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## LJak07 (Dec 17, 2015)

You guys are awesome...thanks you for reaffirming what my feeling was. Like I said, I have never been to a dog trainer and had no idea what to expect. While I usually have no problem letting people have it, I was in shock. This is a common practice from what I see in the class, she had everyone alpha roll their puppies at the beginning. 

We are kind of at our wits end with Ghost and the biting and that was the reason to get him into the class, mostly to help us help him. Since my hand surgery he has taken the liberty of getting even more exuberant with his nipping because he knows I can't play with him and he is trying to get my attention, he's basically acting like a complete pill with me, one moment he's biting my pants and legs, (so much so that he sometimes gets a minute or two timeout in his crate while I recover) and the next gazing adoringly into my eyes with such love and devotion. Other than the biting, his training we do at home is coming along great, he is smart and picks stuff up quickly, he likes to not listen even though he has those giant radar ears. He walks (mostly, he is a puppy..lol) great on a leash, right at our side, he's truly fantastic. 

We are in Salt Lake City and I will be doing some better and more in depth research into classes before I take him anywhere else and certainly asking very pointed questions, lesson learned for sure. 

As for his breeding, I am clueless in what to look for as far as lines and names, I can register him in the AKC but that really doesn't mean anything. It was a small breeder that I got him from, one that has bred the WGSD for 15 years but none of my other dogs (rescues and my Spoodle pup was bred by a friend and given to us as a gift) have had stellar breeding either, and they all turned out perfectly awesome. But there is no right for anyone to hate on my little guy just because he is white, she also said the black ones were terrible too. The funny part of it, the next class had a grown WGSD that was perfectly behaved. 

Again, I can't thank you all enough for all the advice. I will certainly be reading a whole lot more on this website. 
:smirk::wub:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LJak07 said:


> You guys are awesome...thanks you for reaffirming what my feeling was. Like I said, I have never been to a dog trainer and had no idea what to expect. While I usually have no problem letting people have it, I was in shock. This is a common practice from what I see in the class, she had everyone alpha roll their puppies at the beginning.
> 
> We are kind of at our wits end with Ghost and the biting and that was the reason to get him into the class, mostly to help us help him. Since my hand surgery he has taken the liberty of getting even more exuberant with his nipping because he knows I can't play with him and he is trying to get my attention, he's basically acting like a complete pill with me, one moment he's biting my pants and legs, (so much so that he sometimes gets a minute or two timeout in his crate while I recover) and the next gazing adoringly into my eyes with such love and devotion. Other than the biting, his training we do at home is coming along great, he is smart and picks stuff up quickly, he likes to not listen even though he has those giant radar ears. He walks (mostly, he is a puppy..lol) great on a leash, right at our side, he's truly fantastic.
> 
> ...


 Well there are a lot of effective ways to stop puppy biting but most of the effective methods, require using your hand to make it uncomfortable to chew your hand. Does not sound like that is a good option for you??

A better and quicker approach is the "Pet Convincer.":
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Pet-Convincer-Dog-Training-Device/dp/B000QWPWDM[/ame]

And since you're in Salt Lake city??? Here you go, I stumbled unto Ty The Dog Guy a while ago and I like how he works. 

Education Center |

And he "shows his work" and I have posted a lot of it, so your not gonna get sandbagged there.


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## Malachi (Dec 4, 2015)

yuriy said:


> Experience is one thing. Results are an entirely different thing. Find local Schutzhund clubs and talk to the members to see who they recommend. Many clubs have "in house" trainers that have achieved good results in large (national, even) competitions, and would be a much better option than some "pet trainer."


That's what I did to find my trainer and I believe there will be good results, given the references I spoke with from the local club.

I'd be very frustrated, and angry, if I saw a "trainer" abusing a pup, or dealing too severely with a pup...that makes no sense; also, suggesting there is some sort of inherent problem with all White Shepherds seems ignorant to me. I think I'd run away and not look back! 

I hope you will be able to find a truly good trainer...good luck!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LJak07 said:


> Thank you so much, my instincts are screaming the same thing, just needed some guidance. Of course I am going to see if I can get a partial refund at least or chalk it up to bad luck,* she has a german shepherd and has had almost 40 years of training experience, that's why I picked her*. :/ Thanks again.


I had the same experience with Onyx when I chose a trainer that had GSD's. She came highly recommended, worked for a vet and classes were full. She pinned Onyx after grabbing her because Onyx lunged at another puppy. Onyx submissively peed any time the trainer came around after that. I did complete the class and it was a huge mistake. 
This trainer also puts prongs on pups, even toy breeds she suggests them. 
Watching the trainer do demo's with her own dog(which at the time was a cattle dog), his ears were always back, he clearly showed stress. I knew that I would not go back for more classes with her.
This was 9 yrs ago and the trainer is still busy, and from what I know, hasn't changed her methods. Ugh.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm curious to know if anyone ever used the pet convincer and it worked, or it could just be a link that is being posted over and over and over again. 

Gadgets - people LOVE gadgets!! The secret of all dog training is gadgets, it seems. 

I'd be careful about using offensive, loud noises as deterents with puppies - you don't want to create a fear of loud noises, it can backfire at a later time. I used to work with a guy who used the "pennies in a can" method to train his Border Terriers -they (he and his wife) would shake the can loudly by the dog's head and yell no when the pups did something they weren't supposed to. It worked great! Pups would freeze and run-away! Yeah!!!

Except now as grown dogs, they were both deatly afraid of any metallic jingling sounds. If the guy so much as picked up his keys the dogs would start shaking and cowering.

Throw chains, bonkers, pet convincers - non of these things is training. It is bullying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I graduated from college many years ago, the speaker they chose said something to the effect that what happens in our lives is 5% due to the situation and 95% our response to the situation. I think that applies to dogs a lot. Please to not treat your puppy differently because this happened. For the puppy it was pretty much over with when he got up off the floor. Don't compound it by your reaction to what happened.

I agree, that is really bad behavior on the part of the trainer. The only time a trainer may be justified in correcting your dog without your permission is if the dog is biting her. Doing that to a scared pup or dog isn't going to help anything and will mean that it may take a little longer to build the confidence and get that trust. 

I think we all need to be careful when we take pups to classes, to be assertive, and step in front of our pups and not allow altercations between the pup and other dogs or humans, even trainers. The thing is most of us don't know this going into a class. We are there to learn. We are the students. 

Hope you can find a good class. Sometimes it helps to find someone who actively competes in rally/obedience/agility and has some organization that they are affiliated with, like the APDT -- American Pet Dog Trainers, that you can look up on the internet and see what you can expect from trainers that they endorse. 

Sorry you had a bad experience. I always suggest training classes, but it is hard when there are trainers out there that aren't so good.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Get ahold of the Greater Salt Lake City Dog Training Club. Great club and they do obedience classes, etc. They also put on one or two Obedience Trials a year.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm curious to know if anyone ever used the pet convincer and it worked, or it could just be a link that is being posted over and over and over again.
> 
> Gadgets - people LOVE gadgets!! The secret of all dog training is gadgets, it seems.
> 
> ...


Well to answer your question?? Yes, I have heard from members here and on Boxerforum. 

Pet Convincer Question (Chip18 this is for you!) - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

She seems pretty thrilled to me??

Bonkers and Pet Convictions are for "delivering an "Adversive" for dogs with over the top issues, that those dogs owners cannot deal with properly. If they could they would need those tools.

And I have linked in the past a "Pro" that stopped a rescue from "marking in the house" with the use of a "Throw Chain."

I still only use a Slip Lead Leash myself for dealing with, well any dog with leash reactivity issues. So it's pretty much "tool" free for me ... but that's not of much help to others?? 

I'm pretty sure "these" owners would give the world to have there "Boxers" back and a "Bonker" could have stopped the "escaping" crap cold and it's cheaper and easier to use than an E-Collar.

Two Dogs Were Shot After Being Mistaken For Pit Bulls, Beloved Boxers Mourned By Owner

If a dog escapes thru an open door and gets killed because of it?? It's a bit too late for "proper trainer??"

And "perhaps" this PD needs to incorporate the "Bonker" to train their dogs to "respect" thresholds?? A "Bonker" one time in the face would have been a lot cheaper than retiring the dog because he bum rushed dog?? But LE K9's aren't my thing maybe, all off duty K9's (rush thresholds) I expect better from my dogs.  

Massillon K9 officer off after attack, may possibly be removed from force permanently | fox8.com

I am flattered that somehow I seem to be getting the credit/blame for all of these "tools??" But no it was not me that "created" them, they are used and recommend by trainers, that have trained thousands of dogs worldwide.

And people that follow my post know who they are?? I never notice anyone getting in my face ever contacting them?? So I'll just go with those who say thank you, for pointing them out. So yeah I'm good.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm curious to know if anyone ever used the pet convincer and it worked


.

Had to look that up!!!

A friend of mine uses one of those. I'll shoot her a message and ask her about how she uses it. I wasn't paying much attention when she was using it. 

I must have missed something. What does this gadget and cans and chains have to do with alpha rolling?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> .
> 
> Had to look that up!!!
> 
> ...


 *"NOTHING"* blow back from past post by me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

IMO, I think if you are going to classify throw chains, bonkers, and pet convincers as methods of bullying, then one should not forget most people's favorite methods of bullying, the prong collar followed by the e collar. One would be hard pressed to find a more widely abused tool than the prong. It seems once most pet people put one on their dog, they use them only to bully and training goes out the window, it becomes a permanent fixture. That doesn't mean that a prong or e collar aren't valuable tools when properly used on the right dog, same can be said of the other methods. One size does not fit all. 

I have seen people use the convincer and similar methods on some dog aggressive Pit Bulls coming through rescues. In very short time (and I mean in a matter of a few days), they seemed to be able to "rehab" the Pit Bulls who were then able to run, play and be considered safe with other dogs. I sincerely have my doubts as to the long term results without follow up, but that is not the topic.

Personally, I would be concerned with any of these methods to the damage done to the puppy's confidence.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I still have no idea how this thread morphed into throwing chains. And really no idea on why a person would need to throw a chain at a dog. And WHAT is a bonker? oh nevermind. But anywho....

Tools are what you make them. I briefly talked to one trainer/breeder who is conditioning their dogs to a shaker can. Pair it with food, use it wisely and fairly, and you have a positive experience with the can. Same with a prong and e-collars. It's all in how you use the tool and condition it.

Back to the alpha roll....hope you (the OP) found a new trainer! I would never go back to someone who did that to my puppy and then proceeded to humiliate me in front of the whole class with a biased opinion. Bad training and unprofessional.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

I would definitely leave some online reviews if the trainer/training school doesn't address this issue satisfactorily.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Chip suggested the "pet convincer" to get the pup to stop nipping - I warned about the danger of creating a fear of loud noises in a pup when using such drastic aversives and gave an example of people I knew who used the "pennies in a can" method" to train their dogs. (Basically shake the can over the head of the dog when you want them to stop doing something and the noise is supposed to set up a negative associations with the action). Worked great to get the dogs to stop chewing, digging, grabbing stuff, rough-housing, etc, but developed in them a life-long fear of metallic noises. They cowered and shook with every little thing, like someone picking up a set a keys, handling cuttlery, opening a soda can . . . etc .

And No, I don't agree that using a prong or an e-collar is the same as using aversives like bonkers (yeah, bonking the puppy on the head is training, very smooth . . . ) and so on, but I'll have to stop harping on these things since I don't want my posts to turn into petty bickering and then I'll have to give myself a time-out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Chip suggested the "pet convincer" to get the pup to stop nipping - I warned about the danger of creating a fear of loud noises in a pup when using such drastic aversives and gave an example of people I knew who used the "pennies in a can" method" to train their dogs. (Basically shake the can over the head of the dog when you want them to stop doing something and the noise is supposed to set up a negative associations with the action). Worked great to get the dogs to stop chewing, digging, grabbing stuff, rough-housing, etc, but developed in them a life-long fear of metallic noises. They cowered and shook with every little thing, like someone picking up a set a keys, handling cuttlery, opening a soda can . . . etc .
> 
> And No, I don't agree that using a prong or an e-collar is the same as using aversives like bonkers (yeah, bonking the puppy on the head is training, very smooth . . . ) and so on, but I'll have to stop harping on these things since I don't want my posts to turn into petty bickering and then I'll have to give myself a time-out.



ahhhh...I don't see his posts. ** Rest removed by ADMIN since it does nothing to further the conversation** . 

Yeah, if a person is going to throw things at their dog, "bonk" them over the head and use these pet convincers in place of training...SUPER bad idea! On so many levels.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Especially on a puppy!!! I'm not against aversives (like rattlesnake training - it can be a life-saver), but training takes awareness, time, energy, and always being a step ahead of the dog so it can be managed and directed to do the right thing. Using aversives means you are a step behind your dog, so we need to be on our toes, especially with our smart breed. Using aversives _instead_ training can really play havoc with a dog's self-confidence. Save it for life-and death issues, and for an adult dog who has shown that their confidence will not be shaken.


Actually, I used aversives a lot on my very first dog, before I knew beans about training. 

Then I got Miss Keeta, who laughed at aversives (and me too, I'm sure!!!). So off to training we went, to train me to train my dog, and you know what?? Haven't needed it since then. Gryff was pretty much trained off lead, off collar, with careful planning on my part to set him up to succeed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> ahhhh...I don't see his posts. My world is fairly quiet. A self induced time out is never a bad thing .
> 
> Yeah, if a person is going to throw things at their dog, "bonk" them over the head and use these pet convincers in place of training...SUPER bad idea! On so many levels.


Well clearly the "PC" can be used for *"Behaviour Modification"* and "Training" those are two* distinctly different *"Protocols." I would think more "experienced" members would understand that and stop conflating the two?? Those that can *"Train"* a dog ...don't need those tools, those that cannot "do" need them. "Because" depending on what there dog is doing?? They might not have a dog to "Train" ... as I showed by the way.

I see the "shake can" got thrown into the mix also?? I have "never" recommended that "tool" for "Behaviour Modification" myself ... just saying. 

In closing ... how effective is the "PC??" People can judge for themselves.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo


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## koRn (Jan 7, 2016)

Trainer or not. Any stranger tries to alpha roll Cato I'll alpha roll them so hard they won't know what happened. 
Such an antiquated/Victorian method.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

koRn said:


> Trainer or not. Any stranger tries to alpha roll Cato I'll alpha roll them so hard they won't know what happened.
> Such an antiquated/Victorian method.


 But "apparently" it's still being done by some "trainers" (note the lowercase) There was another thread a few weeks ago and someone stumbled into the same thing?? 

Maybe they "don't" have internet access and don't know things have changed??


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> When I graduated from college many years ago, the speaker they chose said something to the effect that *what happens in our lives is 5% due to the situation and 95% our response to the situation. I think that applies to dogs a lot. Please to not treat your puppy differently because this happened. For the puppy it was pretty much over with when he got up off the floor. Don't compound it by your reaction to what happened.
> *
> I agree, that is really bad behavior on the part of the trainer. The only time a trainer may be justified in correcting your dog without your permission is if the dog is biting her. Doing that to a scared pup or dog isn't going to help anything and will mean that it may take a little longer to build the confidence and get that trust.
> 
> ...


I agree, don't compound the problem with your reaction. Let it go and move on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Castlemaid said:


> Chip suggested the "pet convincer" to get the pup to stop nipping - I warned about the danger of creating a fear of loud noises in a pup when using such drastic aversives and gave an example of people I knew who used the "pennies in a can" method" to train their dogs. (Basically shake the can over the head of the dog when you want them to stop doing something and the noise is supposed to set up a negative associations with the action). Worked great to get the dogs to stop chewing, digging, grabbing stuff, rough-housing, etc, but developed in them a life-long fear of metallic noises. They cowered and shook with every little thing, like someone picking up a set a keys, handling cuttlery, opening a soda can . . . etc .
> 
> And No, I don't agree that using a prong or an e-collar is the same as using aversives like bonkers (yeah, bonking the puppy on the head is training, very smooth . . . ) and so on, but I'll have to stop harping on these things since I don't want my posts to turn into petty bickering and then I'll have to give myself a time-out.


Interesting on the pennies in a can technique. One day at PetsMart (I am going to start a thread with that, kind of like People of Walmart), I was hanging out waiting for one of my bitches to be done at the salon, when I started to pay attention to a puppy class. 

This little slip of a girl was doing the training, looked about 18 years old, and she had a clicker in one hand, treats somewhere and a can of pennies in the other. Her timing was so bad, that I wanted to rip the crap out of her hands and smack her. (I didn't.) But really, someone needed a bonker to teach when to praise or correct. The poor puppy was so bewildered. It was so difficult to watch, painful, that I had to leave.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Jax another admin went and edited your post (I can't even remember what it said), and I also removed a few more posts as it was turning into a personal conversation and off topic. 

Back to commenting on the Poster's ex-trainer and helping dealing with their bratty pup until they can find a _good_ trainer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh ... ex-trainer! So no glowing reviews for that guy here!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> In closing ... how effective is the "PC??" People can judge for themselves.:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo


I didn't watch the whole thing, because it is 30 minutes long, but I watched the beginning and the parts through it. 

Now you may wish to not believe me, but Keeta was WORSE than this dog! She was good at the shelter (she was underweight and obviously not doing very well when I got her, so she was quiet and subdued then), but after the honeymoon period, the dog that showed up was just as wild and even more hyper than this dog. The jumping, nipping, pulling, never-stopping? That was her, except she would jump up, grab my top or jacket, and pull and shake like a world-level Schutzhund dog on a sleeve. I was terrified, and way over my head with her. Crazy zoomies on leash out in public so that she almost pulled me over! When doing the grabbing and pulling, she would growl away so that I didn't know if she was being aggressive or play-growling. I was mentally exhausted and drained just dealing with her. 

I did a lot of what the trainer in the video does (waiting her out, not paying attention, etc), and it helped a lot. It was learning how dogs learn, how to set them up for success, how to manage them so they did what you wanted and rewarding, making training a fun game that ended in play and treats - it took work, but I got a great dog out of there who calmed down as time went on and she became secure in knowing that I was leading the way in how to behave, and that she was doing it right. 

The trainer at the classes I took her too told me he had never seen such a wild dog change and calm down so much - and not one correction during this time, all just basic, widely used and practiced training methods (and lots of treats!).

I forgot to mention - first day at classes: I could NOT get Keeta to break her focus off the other people and dogs, and she was pulling so hard and was so hyper, that even to just get from the car into the building, I had to grab her by the collar, lift of her front off the ground, and drag her into the building this way. 

Yeah, we needed help bad! And this dog went on to be the top dog in basic Obedience classes, Got a standing ovation in Tracking class, and was invited by the trainer to join the Schutzhund club - all this, without using aversives, and me just learning basics along with her.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

^^^ That was an outstanding post^^^


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I didn't watch the whole thing, because it is 30 minutes long, but I watched the beginning and the parts through it.
> 
> Now you may wish to not believe me, but Keeta was WORSE than this dog! She was good at the shelter (she was underweight and obviously not doing very well when I got her, so she was quiet and subdued then), but after the honeymoon period, the dog that showed up was just as wild and even more hyper than this dog. The jumping, nipping, pulling, never-stopping? That was her, except she would jump up, grab my top or jacket, and pull and shake like a world-level Schutzhund dog on a sleeve. I was terrified, and way over my head with her. Crazy zoomies on leash out in public so that she almost pulled me over! When doing the grabbing and pulling, she would growl away so that I didn't know if she was being aggressive or play-growling. I was mentally exhausted and drained just dealing with her.
> 
> ...


 I have no reason to doubt your dog was worst than that one! That would be crazy over the top by comparison but you would know. 

Nor do I doubt that "you" were able to train "your" dog starting out, without aversives. I can do the same (thus far) and so can many others. I use a SLL to train a dog that's all "I" need. But that's not of much value to other owners struggling with there dogs issues.

Jeff, did not "need" to use the "PC" to train that dog. He used it to show others "struggling" with there dogs issues,how they can quickly solve their dogs issues without having to spend years to figure it out.

And he and other trainers have eyes on dogs and clients and some of their clients were still failing with "Prong" collar corrections. So just take leash "corrections" off the table and use a PC. 

"Pet People" whose dogs are dragging them down the street, don't really care about the "nuances" of a "PC??" They just want to be able to walk "Rufus" down the street without having their arms pulled out of there sockets or breaking a hip, as there 85+ lbs "Roofus" "whatever breed" takes off after whatever happens to catch his eye?? 

It's not "always about us" it's kinda about helping those less skilled or so I thought?? 

And as an aside ... and without citing sources. 

I find it truly difficult to believe?? That I am the only one "here" that understands the difference between "Behaviour Modification" and "Training??"

Just saying.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It's not that people don't understand - it's that you post the exact same thing in every thread, whether it applies or not. We're talking about 17 week old puppy - not an adult where the lack of a quick and miraculous transformation would mean PTS. 

A 17 week old puppy needs management, being set up for success, consistency, exercise and training. Aversives on such young pups can create life-long phobias that are going to be worse than the original behaviours that the owners were trying to stop. 

I can go on the internet and post a bazillion links that I googled. Eventually, one of them may be relevant to the poster. What is more helpful is people talking from personal experience about situations that relate directly to them. 

A lot of dog people I refer to as "TV dog whisperer generation", where they believe that any issue can be dealt with in 30 minutes of bullying the dog. 99% of those issues can easily be dealt with on more rational, step-by-step approach, and in ways that builds the bond with the dog, not breaks it down. But that makes for slow, boring, much-less dramatic viewing. 

But hey, what do I know? I see posted videos of of "out-of-control" dogs that make me laugh, they are so tame compared to what I went through with Keeta. And I only have a working line that while a dream to live with, has so much power that a police dog trainer I've seen a few times for bite-work, told me he'd rather spend the weekend working 20 active-duty police dogs than work my dog. Police dogs don't bite hard, he said, but he gets more beat-up and bruised doing 3 or 4 sessions of bite work with my dog than traveling around doing training (he is in high demand with police agencies). He is not the only one, I get the same type of comments from most anyone that has worked him. 

Gryffon is a sweet dog and a joy to live with, but with that kind of mental toughness and physical power in him, I'd be setting myself up for major problems if I tried to use aversives for training. I don't ever want to create a situation where I give Gryffon reason to not trust me. 

I don't know other people's dogs, I don't know their threshold, their temperament, the bond and relationship they have with their owners, so I am not going to set them up to harm their relationship with their dog by telling them to blow blasts of high-pressure air into their face, bonk them on the head, or create new fears and phobias using other negative methods.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> It's not that people don't understand - it's that you post the exact same thing in every thread, whether it applies or not. We're talking about 17 week old puppy - not an adult where the lack of a quick and miraculous transformation would mean PTS.
> 
> A 17 week old puppy needs management, being set up for success, consistency, exercise and training. Aversives on such young pups can create life-long phobias that are going to be worse than the original behaviours that the owners were trying to stop.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

selzer said:


> This little slip of a girl was doing the training, looked about 18 years old, and she had a clicker in one hand, treats somewhere and a can of pennies in the other. Her timing was so bad, that I wanted to rip the crap out of her hands and smack her. (I didn't.) But really, someone needed a bonker to teach when to praise or correct. The poor puppy was so bewildered. It was so difficult to watch, painful, that I had to leave.


I was watching a "trainer" at PetCo doing a private lesson with a client. They were working on sit and heel, from what I could gather. Dog is staring vacantly around the store. Owner "sit" "sit" "sit" "sit" the dog eventually got bored of just standing there and laid down. Trainer clicks and treats saying "close enough. that's great progress." 

Heeling through the store - dog is dragged across the floor since the dog never bothered to try to stand up. Dog gets tired of it and stands up when the woman stops and he's not being pulled along the floor. Dog takes a couple steps over to a shelf and grabs a ball. "EXCELLENT!! Reward him for moving"


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Responding to the initial situation: 
I am amazed that people who call themselves trainers are still doing this with puppies. I would think that the entire class would be tempted to walk out once they recovered from being totally stunned.

As for "But there is no right for anyone to hate on my little guy just because he is white, she also said the black ones were terrible too. " Look at it this way: Any GSD pup with a good amount of drive is going to be terrible. (So she's right on that count.) I have several "terrible" GSDs. Mostly black & tans - one bi-color in there. Full of that and vinegar! 

BTW it's not that he "knows you can't play" It's that he wants you to play. And is persistent in expressing this desire in a rather annoying way.

Hey, glad you realized the trainer was not right. Take comfort in that your pup will recover and that you have now learned it is OK to say "No" to a trainer. After many years of training, I found myself in a similar situation. Due to circumstances, I didn't say what I wanted to say. I just made sure she never did that again. And I didn't go back to advanced classes. Your pup forgives you. They are very forgiving.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> It's not that people don't understand - it's that you post the exact same thing in every thread, whether it applies or not. We're talking about 17 week old puppy - not an adult where the lack of a quick and miraculous transformation would mean PTS.
> 
> A 17 week old puppy needs management, being set up for success, consistency, exercise and training. Aversives on such young pups can create life-long phobias that are going to be worse than the original behaviours that the owners were trying to stop.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your amazing response and also for stating what many of us have felt about so many posts.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> It's not that people don't understand - it's that you post the exact same thing in every thread, whether it applies or not. We're talking about 17 week old puppy - not an adult where the lack of a quick and miraculous transformation would mean PTS.
> 
> I can go on the internet and post a bazillion links that I googled. Eventually, one of them may be relevant to the poster. What is more helpful is people talking from personal experience about situations that relate directly to them.
> 
> ...


I agree. The videos can be good to give a concept and show one method but that's only the tip of the iceberg. Many times here, conversations about problems go much deeper and underlying problems are discovered that would cause all the training videos in the world to be ineffective and perhaps even damaging if there are underlying issues such as temperament differences or owners misreading what's really going on with their particular dog. 

To insist that the videos will solve all problems and in person trainers are not needed is setting the owner and dog up to fail. To present a dog with aversive training for deviations in temperament that are genetic and known to be very difficult to manage is futile and can aggravate the problem. IMO using aversives should be a last resort not a first resort and you have to know how it will affect your dog in the short and long term. 

With so many of the problems presented here - there are many helpful posters that offer alternatives and once presented - the OP that really wants answers will "unleash" a whole series of Yea but's and questions. This all to help them understand these seemingly "simple" training concepts as they relate more specifically to their dog. If they just march off and "monkey see, monkey do" applying a mixed bag of training principals they saw on a video -they are going to end up lost and possibly having to reverse damage done because they selected the wrong way to train their dog. I had to change methods with my pup 4 times because the videos I viewed weren't working with my particular pup and I was training multiple methods which conflicted. 

How can one successfully select a training method without knowing their dog? In person trainers and many of the questions that end up getting addressed here help to fill that vital gap for the OP. 

Which is more likely to happen? An owner choosing to follow a video that is online and free or to actually learn about different training methods and their concepts, learn the temperament of their dog and then select a best method.....


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's vital to understand your dog's temperament and point of view in order to communicate and train effectively.I find videos useful for exploring different ways to teach or solve a problem.I can incorporate or reject a method based on what my dog will be responsive to.But a competent trainer is worth their weight in gold.They can see what your dog needs and show you how to best communicate it clearly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> And I only have a working line that while a dream to live with, has so much power that a police dog trainer I've seen a few times for bite-work, told me he'd rather spend the weekend working 20 active-duty police dogs than work my dog. Police dogs don't bite hard, he said, but he gets more beat-up and bruised doing 3 or 4 sessions of bite work with my dog than traveling around doing training (he is in high demand with police agencies). He is not the only one, I get the same type of comments from most anyone that has worked him.
> 
> Gryffon is a sweet dog and a joy to live with, but with that kind of mental toughness and physical power in him, I'd be setting myself up for major problems if I tried to use aversives for training. I don't ever want to create a situation where I give Gryffon reason to not trust me.


I see the same in his brother. Aren't we blessed? :wub:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL, I'm back with a great example of behaviour Modification that did NOT require aversives (like I said, save it for life and death situations, behaviours can be modified quite well without them when people know what they are doing.)

Gryff was six months old when I got him. In my eyes, the perfect puppy, but he was a crate spinner - spinning and whinning with excitement whenever I approached to get him out of the crate. Nice to have a happy pup that gets all excited when they see you and get all happy knowing that play time with Mom is coming up, but I didn't want to let him out of the crate with a hyper mind-set. I wanted a calm puppy, that was paying attention and under control. 

I did the wait-him-out game, and let him spin until he stopped to look at me. When dogs start obsessive/repetitive behaviours like this, in their mind, it is the behaviour that they are doing that is making happen what they want. The way a dog's mind works, is that they think "Hey, spinning MAKES Mom open the crate door - cool! I'll just do it more and more and more, and I can control Mom to open the crate door whenever she walks up to the crate". People are not aware that most behaviours we don't want in our dogs, we somehow, one way or another, created it by making behavioural associations in our dogs' minds. So completely unfair to the dogs to label them as bad dogs, or problem dogs, and start a regimen of punishment to stop the behaviour that we owners created in them. Supposedly, we are smarter than them, so let's put those smarts to use getting the dog we want. 

So I wait Gryffon out, I have the crate door unlatched so my timing can be split-second perfect - and after spinning, spinning, spinning - he suddenly stops and looks at me (he is thinking "I'm doing my part of the behaviour - why isn't Mom doing hers?" Split second timing, I open the crate door and praise him. 

Next time, he stops to check in with me a lot sooner, and even sooner the time after that. 

It took 3 days only to get him to completely stop spinning in his crate. 3 days of behavior modification that anyone could have done with a little bit of direction in how to go about it. I changed my behaviour (not letting him out when he was spinning), and his behaviour change followed. Never had an issue with crate spinning again - well, that's not true, I get a few spins out of Gryff when I take him out of the vehicle crate when we are a training and his turn for bite-work comes up - but that I'm willing to overlook. I mean, it's BITE-WORK!! The level of exciement is over the moon! 

No aversives to stop the early crate spinning. The crate spinning was NOT a situation that I would want to use anything that might bring a negative association with being in a crate, or with me approaching. Granted, took more than 30 minutes, but no one can argue that arriving to a change in behaviour in 3 days is a bad thing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> People are not aware that most behaviours we don't want in our dogs, we somehow, one way or another, created it by making behavioural associations in our dogs' minds. So completely unfair to the dogs to label them as bad dogs, or problem dogs, and start a regimen of punishment to stop the behaviour that we owners created in them. Supposedly, we are smarter than them, so let's put those smarts to use getting the dog we want.


Before I get up on my soapbox with a general statement, I just wanted to say what a superb comment and this is something that should be repeated on every thread posted with problem dogs. :thumbup:

With that said, I think a lot of training advice is flawed and short sighted by only looking at the dog and totally disregarding the person. Not only is each dog an individual, but so is the person and as not all training methods work for all dogs, nor do they work for all dog owners. The wrong methods used repeatedly on the dog will not meet with much success. The wrong methods used by the person will frequently result in frustration, resentment, and abandonment of training by the owner. 

I am not sitting here judging, or even disagreeing, with the comments made on this thread, or the whys, but I am saying different strokes for different folks and the dog is only half the equation. There are many alternatives and we should not close our minds to them. What kind of trainer, or dog owner, limits their knowledge and tools in their boxes? IMO, not a very good one.

Then you have Chip. I personally am not one to leave a site to follow links, but that is just me. Just because that is how I choose to use this forum, does not make it the only way. One can't make a blanket statement that he posts the same links without qualifying that he repeats those links to different OPs, that wouldn't be fair. It may be repetitive to those who frequent the forum, but to newbies, it is fresh. Maybe the best solution to appease all would to break down the forum into many subsets of the different methods of training and then others could simply avoid the topics with which they don't agree. Maybe a better approach would be to have a civil conversation regarding any given method of training, why it works or doesn't, why one chooses to use it or not, even why one would elect not to see it advised on this forum, than to selectively single out one person, especially when a lot of bad information, IMO, is repeatedly given out by others as well, not pointing the finger at any one person in particular.

Maybe the methods presented, whether we agree or disagree with them, are just the perfect solution to somebody else's problem. Why should this forum recommend withholding this information? And who are we to judge, or try to control, how another person learns? Some might excel with trainers, others might flounder. Others might do well in training by watching a video, reading a forum or book, or talking on the phone with a breeder. There are great variations in learning from person to person, just as in dogs. To dismiss the individuality of the owner, or the dog, and try to force a square peg into a round hole, does a disservice to both, and this should not be condoned on a forum where people come for help with their dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Before I get up on my soapbox with a general statement, I just wanted to say what a superb comment and this is something that should be repeated on every thread posted with problem dogs. :thumbup:
> 
> With that said, I think a lot of training advice is flawed and short sighted by only looking at the dog and totally disregarding the person. Not only is each dog an individual, but so is the person and as not all training methods work for all dogs, nor do they work for all dog owners. The wrong methods used repeatedly on the dog will not meet with much success. The wrong methods used by the person will frequently result in frustration, resentment, and abandonment of training by the owner.
> 
> ...


Well I got nothing to add ... that won't start yet another "off topic" conservation. 

So I'm good,


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> Gryff was six months old when I got him. In my eyes, the perfect puppy, but he was a crate spinner - spinning and whinning with excitement whenever I approached to get him out of the crate. Nice to have a happy pup that gets all excited when they see you and get all happy knowing that play time with Mom is coming up, but I didn't want to let him out of the crate with a hyper mind-set. I wanted a calm puppy, that was paying attention and under control.
> 
> I did the wait-him-out game, and let him spin until he stopped to look at me. When dogs start obsessive/repetitive behaviours like this, in their mind, it is the behaviour that they are doing that is making happen what they want.



With dogs that truly have a severe form of OCD manifesting as "spinning" or "tail chasing" (which is inherited) that is called Stereotypical Tail Chasing" This method may work temporarily but the OCD behavior will "break out" time and time again and in many cases become more severe as the dog ages. If it's a simple accidental association that the dog made that an action got him attention so he repeats not the same as an Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder.

My dog discovered a large mirror the other day. During the following two days, she would go to the mirror and look at me (out in the other room) and it made me laugh. She took her balls to the mirror to see if the "me" in the mirror wanted to play because I told her I didn't want to. Made me laugh. So - instant behavior learned. For the last 3 days when she wants my attention she goes to the mirror and stares at me. We are in the process of ignoring that mirror for a while.....and the behavior is starting to fade.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Stone, YES, Absolutely about real OCD spinning and tail chasing - a whole different kettle of fish!! Still important to not reward the behaviour - but just waiting it out may not work. Interupting and redirecting is needed, and the key would be to not let it start at all. I'm not going to go into it though, that is a different situation than the one I used as an example. 

Wow, that mirror story is funny and fascinating! These dogs are so darn smart, it's scary! We really need to be on our toes and always a step ahead of them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> With that said, I think a lot of training advice is flawed and short sighted by only looking at the dog and totally disregarding the person. Not only is each dog an individual, but so is the person and as not all training methods work for all dogs, nor do they work for all dog owners. The wrong methods used repeatedly on the dog will not meet with much success. The wrong methods used by the person will frequently result in frustration, resentment, and abandonment of training by the owner.
> 
> I am not sitting here judging, or even disagreeing, with the comments made on this thread, or the whys, but I am saying different strokes for different folks and the dog is only half the equation. There are many alternatives and we should not close our minds to them. What kind of trainer, or dog owner, limits their knowledge and tools in their boxes? IMO, not a very good one.


I don't think anyone will argue with this. So, then - what is irking some people?

IMO for the very reasons sighted one of which is the lack of ability of some sources to provide training for the owner - the training video's are indeed limited as to how much they can teach the person to teach the dog - regardless of which video and training method is selected. They are good for introducing basic concept but lacking IMO in many areas. I will always prefer one on one or in person training or an open format where you can ask questions specific to your dog over a video or book.

My concern is these sources are being referred to as a "replacement" to and not a "side reference" to more interactive education and training. 

I think it's great to have every viable method discussed here and that's done every hour of every day here. I think problems arise when a poster feels others suggestions or methods offered are inferior without discussion as to why - just go read this book or watch this video. You've got people here investing their time and effort to help a poster and in one fell swoop here comes huge posts with redirection and often quite a bit of negative comments about alternative training ideas being discussed. 

If I post here with questions it's because this is a good format for me to learn in. That's why I posted the question here. Occasionally posters will mention their opinion and also provide a link to a specific outside source that they feel may benefit the OP. But the reference is as a sidenote.

I don't think it's my imagination that certain posts here criticize other methods of training outside of those they chose to adopt. That gets tiresome when there is no individual thought or consideration given to a specific topic. Sometimes these referrals end up plopping into the middle of a conversation and they have no remote relevancy to the topic. lol 

There is a distinct attitude in some posts that seem ignore or discount others recommendations and are very convinced that their choices are the best and encourage the thought of don't bother wasting your time or money on other methods. 

Hundreds of thousands of posters here exchange ideas. I don't mind when trainers or those working with dogs in a professional capacity have discussions about why their recommendations conflict (until it gets to 3 or 4 pages)lol. Then every one just wants out of the car wreck. But that's not what we are talking about here. 

Some of the E-Collar great debates might demonstrate how one poster can really turn off people by creating post after post that are designed to downplay others chosen methods in order to promote their own.... an extreme example but the core is the same.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Training and behavior modification are not mutually exclusive. All training is not behavior modification, but all behavior modification involves some aspect of training. You simply cannot completely separate the two.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> Stone, YES, Absolutely about real OCD spinning and tail chasing - a whole different kettle of fish!! Still important to not reward the behaviour - but just waiting it out may not work. Interupting and redirecting is needed, and the key would be to not let it start at all. I'm not going to go into it though, that is a different situation than the one I used as an example.
> 
> Wow, that mirror story is funny and fascinating! These dogs are so darn smart, it's scary! We really need to be on our toes and always a step ahead of them.


Your comment about what we "inadvertently" teach our dogs was my "lesson of the week" with mine LOL Reminds me of that song "Every step you make, every breath you take - I'll be watching you...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Before I get up on my soapbox with a general statement, I just wanted to say what a superb comment and this is something that should be repeated on every thread posted with problem dogs. :thumbup:
> 
> With that said, I think a lot of training advice is flawed and short sighted by only looking at the dog and totally disregarding the person. Not only is each dog an individual, but so is the person and as not all training methods work for all dogs, nor do they work for all dog owners. The wrong methods used repeatedly on the dog will not meet with much success. The wrong methods used by the person will frequently result in frustration, resentment, and abandonment of training by the owner.


I use videos to learn different methods for teaching my dog obedience and manners behaviors, like how to walk on a loose lead. When I had what looked like a blooming behavior problem, I immediately contacted a private trainer. Within two days he evaluated my dog, made a few suggestions and scheduled an extended training session in a few weeks after we try his suggestions. The good news was that he didn't think we had a serious problem, just an annoying one that will be solved through consistent socialization vs one that needs sudden and serious intervention. By the time we meet with him in a public park with distractions, we will be fine tuning rather than changing a behavior. Because we worked with him for several rescues we know his methods and more important, he knows us and what we are and aren't capable of. So his interventions are things that will work for us and for this dog.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Couple of suggestions:
- lets get back to the original topic
- take criticisms of one another's posting style to private messages perhaps

just suggestions. I am not sure how much interest others have in the arm wrestling match but mine's pretty low.

Oh, wait! Let's suggest Chip & Stone be alpha rolled!  That would tie it together.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I was alpha rolled as a small child....I guess that answers why I drop to the ground and roll over on my back whenever I see my parents......I hate that when it happens especially in public.


SuperG


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LJak - sorry, bunch of people are getting off topic and getting personal here - I deleted some posts that were subtle attacks on others, and I'll lock this thread as people's ego seem to not be able to take a back-seat to actually helping others. 

We'd love to help as much as we can, if you have any quesionst, please don't hesitate to start a new thread. Thanks!


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