# Please help.. I need to get this right



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

In a nutshell... My neighbor likes to bring her 8 month old Giant Schnauzer male pup to our fenced back yard to play with our 5 1/2 month old male GSD litter mates. Her pup has a little height and weight on our pups. Most of the time the pups play pretty well together but occasionally the Schnauzer will pin one of our pups or they will get into a squabble over a toy. Recently the squabble turned into a fight and we pulled them apart ( with difficulty). I was much more concerned than my neighbor. We both consulted our dog's trainers for advice. Her trainer said we should leave them alone and let them work it out. My trainer said the opposite... She recommended brief, supervised play with leashes attached and watch closely for escalation and intervene before the fight begins.
All 3 of the dogs are well socialized. Our GSD's have never shown aggression towards other dogs. The Schnauzer will growl at my neighbor ( it's owner) over toys. am I being too protective of my pups? Any insight/ recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

You have your own pack...why do you have the Schnauzer in your yard at all?
Lock your gates and problem solved.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My own personal observations and opinions....most likely not correct. But first, an observation: All too many times, I see the owner of the dog "on top" being more tolerant of this type of situation...I suppose it stands to logic and the ego of the owner with the 'on top" dog. I speak from the position of the dog owner with the dog "on top"....however I have never let it continue even if the other owner of the dog getting beat up on is okay with it...because I am simply not. 

My opinion....dogs can engage as they choose but once I decide, enough is enough ( and that is my verbal command to the dog ) then the level intensity needs to diminish. I use to intervene at many a doggy get together in my backyard and as well used the lead and prong if need be. I'm still the sheriff and when it gets to a certain point where I deem it need not continue then that's how the story goes. I appreciate that I might be a bit too proactive before it escalates but reasonable civility demonstrated by my dog is not something which is asking too much.

Working with my dog ( on prong and 30 foot lead ) around the others yielded good results as no restraints are required anymore.....just a hearty " ENOUGH " to get her attention and civil balance is restored.

Oh, I know I was asking a lot of my girl as it is almost her backyard...almost because it's mine....but regardless of the setting, calling a dog off has merit.

Keep us updated on the process and results.


SuperG


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with YOUR trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would not allow them to play together. What is the point? You don't want your pups to feel bullied and lose confidence and possibly pay some vet bills. Maybe train together, let the pups all grow up with each other in their realm, but no more play with toys that may cause guarding behavior. Though, one of my dogs knows she needs to have her mouth stuffed with a toy so she isn't biting the others. 


Leash aggression may happen if you allow the dogs to interact with each other while on lines. 

If you decide to let them play, maybe do one on one and not all three together.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

5 1/2 months old? Nope. Stop the play with the schnauzer unless as directed by your trainer. Personally, since I've had to deal with a dog aggressive dog that was caused by another attacking it and fighting, I would stop the play all together.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Exactly! ThevGiant Schnauzer is getting the best of my pup so thevSchnauzer's owner thinks all is well. Time for me to grow a spine and protect my pups from bully Schnauzer.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> 5 1/2 months old? Nope. Stop the play with the schnauzer unless as directed by your trainer. Personally, since I've had to deal with a dog aggressive dog that was caused by another attacking it and fighting, I would stop the play all together.


Agree! No more tolerating bullying behavior of Schnauzer. Thanks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Schnauzer's have different body language too. They are higher strung dogs. Can be nervy. 

If I knew what fostering the doberman that kept attacking Jax would do in the long run, I would have been screaming for the rescue to move him much sooner. Continued fighting and attacks will make your boys start having the mentality of "I'll get him before he gets me" and then it's an uphill battle.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

My girlfriend 'used' to bring her dog over. Hope did not like Fritz as a pup, now that he is much bigger then her, she still doesn't like him. Last time Hope was over, she bit Fritz, so my friend put her dog in the car for the rest of the visit.. Its hard to see your 'baby' get hurt isn't it?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is your back yard . Your dogs', not neutral, territory.
Being made to eat dirt by being bullied by another dog is not a good dynamic. This probably happens to the very same dog that is made to eat dirt within your own two dogs.
Message driven home to that one dog is you're the underdog , a stressful place to be .
Didn't you have issues with this same neighbour before when you first brought your tandem team home?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

You've received some great info here ... I'll add one other thing. 

It really ticks me off when I hear people say "let the dogs work it out." Really?

It's one thing for a puppy to get corrected by ONE dog for being over exuberant, and taking that correction and lowering their play energy and carrying back on with appropriate play. That is AWESOME, and it's how puppies learn to play properly, how they learn about bite inhibition with other puppies. 

Not all dogs will correct properly - I know for a fact that Kyleigh is over the top with her corrections with puppies, so I don't let exuberant puppies play with her. She won't teach them a lesson, she's being a bi**h ... 

If one dog is corrected by the another dog, and the recipient dog doesn't take the correction and goes after the other dog ... get your butt in there and separate those dogs ... letting them work it out at this point? Not going to happen ... and this is where so many people fail their dog. 

Your trainer was right ... supervised play for 15-20 minutes is enough ... shorter or non-existent if the shnauzer doesn't catch on that his behaviour is not tolerated. 

Good luck,


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your insight and recommendations. As I learn more and more about the GSD personalities/characteristics by spending time with our boys, I realize just how knowledgeable you GSD forum members are and also, how much I still have to learn. 
This issue with my neighbor and her Schnauzer are so challenging for me because she and I have worked together for 14 years and we continue to work together. I'm treading lightly here so will consider a short, supervised visit with my trainer present to watch the interaction. Thanks to all of you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You and your neighbor can still train together! The dogs can be within each others sight, but know that interacting with the handler is more fun than 'play' with each other. I don't know why the need for the schnauzer to play with other dogs is such a big deal to your neighbor. Your dogs have each other, if she is so adament on her dog playing, she should get another dog, lol.
As Carmen posted the territory should be neutral regardless if you think your trainer needs to see what is going on. But I wouldn't go that route if I was in this situation. Just stop the interaction now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How about if you just tell her that since your dogs are very young, you would like to put more obedience on them and restrict access to dogs outside the pack that are older than them? 

Dogs don't need to play with all other dogs. Maybe she can find a playmate better suited to her dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> You and your neighbor can still train together! The dogs can be within each others sight, but know that interacting with the handler is more fun than 'play' with each other. I don't know why the need for the schnauzer to play with other dogs is such a big deal to your neighbor. Your dogs have each other, if she is so adament on her dog playing, she should get another dog, lol.


Jane said it better than I!!!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

One more question... Does anyone know why so many people recommend letting the dogs work it out for themselves? Is that an acceptable approach for specific breeds or specific ages of dogs? It seems barbaric to me but is a very common recommendation I keep hearing from folks around here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It helps set pack hierarchy. However, in your case, your pack is your two dogs. Not a neighbors dog. To me, I don't like to pay emergency vet bills so I do not recommend letting them sort it out themselves. A snark here and there within your pack when you know your dogs? Yes. An outside dog? Never.

For instance, if we let Jax and Sierra sort it out then we're heading for stitches in the dogs and ourselves. But I let Jax and Seger sort things out most times because Seger has super body language and those two have a completely different relationship. Once in a while I'll step in and tell them to knock it off, especially if one is resource guarding something they shouldn't be.


and just a note to really take into consideration...You have two dogs. If there is a fight with an outside dog, they will learn to fight as a pack and attack together. Just stand up for your dogs and tell this woman no. If it was her child coming over and starting fights with your child, would you allow it to continue?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

One more question... Does anyone know why so many people recommend letting the dogs work it out for themselves? Is that an acceptable approach for specific breeds or specific ages of dogs? It seems barbaric to me but is a very common recommendation I keep hearing from folks around here.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

I honestly don't know why people recommend letting dogs work it out, but my first impression is that's a lazy approach. Some people have the mentality that dogs in the wild work things out for themselves, eat whatever they want, get cuts or injuries, and that our pets will work it out, or get over it, or heal on their own since they would in the wild. My husband has gotten frustrated at Gunther injuring himself before and said these words to me. Of course he doesn't ever mean it and would do anything for Gunther just as I would. Again, this is just my first impression of people who say these things. What they fail to recognize is that the wild dog mentality is widely separated from the domesticated pets we own in our home.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> One more question... Does anyone know why so many people recommend letting the dogs work it out for themselves? Is that an acceptable approach for specific breeds or specific ages of dogs? It seems barbaric to me but is a very common recommendation I keep hearing from folks around here.


Perhaps, this "letting the dogs work it out" mentality begins when many a new pup owner brings their pup to puppy socialization classes AKA Puppy Wrestling 101. I have attended these classes with each of the pups I have had over the years and the process and guidance by the instructors was pretty standard when it came to the " free for all " play time portion of the class. The typical "guidance" by the instructors was exactly as you stated when some of the pups started rumbling with a bit more enthusiasm than others....." oh, just let them go..they'll work it out....they're just learning bite inhibitions....they're learning.....etc" The most proactive guidance I have ever seen by the instructors was a bit of separation by size and perhaps age.....maybe intensity exhibited by the pup as well. Anyway, the takeaway from these ab initio puppy classes for many might be that this behavior is acceptable which in most cases it is at this particular time in a pup's development.....and then the pup's owner walks away with this mentality and may never revisit another formal training class to discover that this original behavior left unchecked can become problematic.

Just a guess on my behalf...


SuperG


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

When Isabella GSD was 5.5 months. I made certain that NO interaction with other animals except Nelson JRT (8) our own dog....... The reason was simple......

Bella needed to develop mentally and have all the necessary maturity to handle herself. I ran off a Lab owner neighbor. He and my wife were in disbelief, then at the campground, "Oh I have two Shepherd's that can romp in the grassy section off lead," Bella stood her ground in the playpen and showed her teeth (big time for the 1st. time). She was now getting to the point where she could handle herself. Now, she will be 1 yr. in 8 days. If for some reason a dog or a naive (lack of a better word) owner comes running up, the deal will be closed immediately if she is backed against the wall. We were playing yesterday and my index finger was extended, "sorry Dad, it was an accident. You've taught me to be gentle, loving and the rest of the story is mine to decide now."

*"Run them off."* These are the exact words *Lou Castle* said:

SGCSG

HH


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> .
> and just a note to really take into consideration...You have two dogs. If there is a fight with an outside dog, they will learn to fight as a pack and attack together. Just stand up for your dogs and tell this woman no. If it was her child coming over and starting fights with your child, would you allow it to continue?


Reading the op I was thinking the same thing, you have 2 litter mates and most likey they will both join the fight. My wife and I attended seperate OB and other classes with our litter mate females. When we finally took a class together, Zoey ended up being attacked from behind by another GSD, Tuke noticed what happened instantly and would have answered the bell if not on lead. Hard enough separating 2 fighting dogs.


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

My GSD was a bit of a baby when he was younger and I could tell he didn't like rough play with other dogs. I was pretty in tune with his feelings, and as soon as/or even before I could tell he was uncomfortable I would intervene and end the interaction. He is now a confident dog and likes to play with other dogs. I was never a fan of letting him work it out because I felt he would end up getting the short end of the stick and feel bullied.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Among other things, I would be worried that the outside dog would teach my dogs to resource guard. If the Schnauzer growls at it's owner for removing a toy, it's going to continue the behavior and it will get worse. Your pups will get the brunt of the behavior and/or learn that resource guarding is an acceptable behavior. 

I wouldn't allow my male dogs to work it out. Someone would get seriously injured. And I don't believe they'd EVER work it out. They will always get snippy with each other. The question would be to what extent? Not a chance I'm willing to take. ALL my dogs will bow down to my little female Minie Doxie. She'll only get snippy if food is involved. I don't allow that either. I'm the only one allowed to get snippy.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Never, ever doubt that it's your job to protect your pups/dogs, never apologize for being protective of your animals. Keep the schnauzer out of your yard, end the "play times" without apology or regret immediately. Your neighbor and trainer are very foolish people and you should disassociate yourself and your dogs/pups from them for good. You can NEVER be too protective of your animals, something truly awful can happen in an instant, and you would be filled with regret for a very, very long time. You also have enough on your plate properly training and supervising litter mates.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "for me because she and I have worked together for 14 years and we continue to work together"

good then , assert yourself on your own property, welcome her , leave Schnauzer at home . When (if) you reciprocate with a friendly visit you leave your two at home.

If your relationship is so intertwined that you are "friends/neighbours and work mates , it is even more important that no incident creates hostility , open or otherwise .


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Boy I would just say, "My trainer said so."
If you knew my trainer....LOL.... it is so true.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

okay, I didn't read the part about you being more than just neighbors. so i change that part of my post to "what Carmen said".


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