# I'm going to shoot myself here in Des Moines, IA if I can't find something (long)



## chelle

I think my needs are simple. I want an Obedience class that allows the use of a prong. I would like it very much if we could bypass Obedience I, since we've done that and we really are ready to move on to a level up. 

The trainer (group class) that we attended for Obed I is not offering an Obed II. She said not enough takers. Sigh.

So I got pretty excited that I found what I thought would be a great class -- even offering Sunday classes! yay! -- and inquired about the possibility of bypassing Obedience I with an evaluation, they said sure it could be possible if Bailey passed the eval ... then I thought, ok, I'd better ask about treats/prong.. and just got the ix-nay on that. Treats, yes. Prong collar, no. 

I was told this: 

_"Once you get into class I think it will make more sense about how we are different. Relationship is everything when it comes to working with your dog and once relationship is established then you don't need other equipment to control the dog because the dog sees you as the best thing in the world. _

_For an example, xxxx and I have five dogs, three of which are under a year old. All of our dogs can be taken out doors hiking or out of our facility to potty off leash because we have established a relationship that overpowers any of their other wants. Granted our dogs that are under a year old aren't perfect but I can trust them and they respond to us when we need them to."_

You know, I can't argue with accomplished trainers. This just kinda rubs the wrong way. Bails and I have a very strong, very established relationship. He does see me as the best thing in the universe. He does tons of offleash everything, at home, the trails, etc and so on. The prong is what I use in other environments, where I want to be assured of control. At Petco. In our last training class. For a walk. Anywhere I'm not positive of the environment. It's not a crutch - it's a tool and it's effective and I like it. I KNOW I have the ultimate control over him and he knows it, too. If I attempt to take him into this class on a flat collar, he will be so incredibly excited about it that he will drag me and we will appear to be insane. Is this a weakness of MINE that I need to correct? I'm not willing to take him into a new environment like this on a buckle, actually. He WILL pull, and pull hard, and he is strong. I'd more likely use a harness, which I've been told about again and again, that it increases the dogs desire to pull, but is more manageable by far. I am very concerned over trachea damage, so the buckle in a new scene is ... OUT.

What do you think about the response I received? 

Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:

_"Beginners is a class for dogs 6 months of age and older, aimed at training you to train your dog. Emphasis is on the training needed to make the dog a good companion: walk on a loose leash, sit, stand, down, stay and come when called. Information about nutrition, grooming, crate training, problem solving, etc. is included."_

I know I'll come across as a know-it-all jerk here! but we've got these things covered!!!

I took one of my other dogs here to train and it is one large room with three rings. VERY loud, very boisterious, tons of distraction... so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. That's where I am with Bailey now -- he's pretty solid, but this training environment, with all its massive chaos, would be perhaps a pretty good proofing. (?)

The VERY first class we signed up for was horrible... they strapped a prong on Bailey when I'd never used one ever before and expected me to know, apparently thru osmosis, how to properly use it. The class session was mostly about yelling at me for doing things wrong. Well, duh?!

Then PetSmart... I strongly considered enrolling there to fill in the void time between his class ending and starting again after the New Year... only to have Selzer let me know they don't allow prongs. I stopped in and spoke with the trainer personally and she was not exactly snotty about prongs, but you could tell she didn't "approve" and said we'd have to train with a Martingale. Now why would I want to change one band aid for another?

Here's yet another response from another group class trainer that I received after a request for info:

_"Training your pet should be fun, I'll show you how. You'll see a huge change in your pet in just 48 hours. And, another huge change Week 3. Plan to leave my Class with a smile on your face, and your dog’s tail wagging._

_My Clients say "it's amazing", "shocking", or they "are stunned" at how much their pet puppy/dog changed after the first class. No kidding! _

_In my classes I address the issues of walking nicely on a leash , housebreaking/marking inappropriately, nipping, chewing, digging, and obedience training, as well as socialization (with humans, and other dogs), and lots more great doggie tips. You'll be amazed how quickly your dog will pick up my positive reinforcement training style."_

REALLY? A HUGE change in my pet in 48 hours? Amazing and shocking? What kind of fluffy junk is this, anyway?

The others I've contacted represent themselves on websites as having classes, but when you email for more info, they push in-home training. I don't want in-home training. I want to move forward in Obedience in a group setting, where we have other dogs, people, distractions.

I'm coming to the belief that dog training is some kind of stupid racket.

Thanks for letting me vent. Continuing Bailey's training is super high priority to me. At this point, though, I am exceedingly, overwhelmingly, ridiculously frustrated.

All feedback very welcome.!


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## PaddyD

Large vent, short response.
I think the prong collar is a crutch.
So shoot me.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

Come to Ames and train with me and Sasha lol Jk I know that's a bit of a drive. 

I don't have a whole lot to say about most of this but I do have a comment about one thing you said:
*
Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:*

The place that Sasha and I will (hopefully) be training at is not very responsive to e-mailing but is pretty responsive to phone calls. Not everyone checks their e-mail very option (kind of like how it never dawns on me to check snail mail, older people sometimes aren't good about checking e-mail) so you may try contacting them over the phone if you're really interested in training there.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

PaddyD said:


> Large vent, short response.
> I think the prong collar is a crutch.
> So shoot me.


I think it can be, but like anything it depends on how it's used. I trained my golden with a prong when I was showing him in 4-H because he was too strong for me, and then weaned him off of it once we had an understanding that I was in control. It was a tool I used to help me gain control. We didn't use it forever but I couldn't have done anything with him without it; he was bigger and stronger than I was.


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## chelle

PaddyD said:


> Large vent, short response.
> I think the prong collar is a crutch.
> So shoot me.


I will not shoot you, I will only shoot me. Actually I don't own a gun so I won't shoot anyone. 

Ok, so how to get him "off" the prong then? Sure, I could go to a Martingale, but isn't that just as much of a crutch? How to get his excited behind thru the door with my shoulder and his trachea in healthy condition?



NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Come to Ames and train with me and Sasha lol Jk I know that's a bit of a drive.
> 
> I don't have a whole lot to say about most of this but I do have a comment about one thing you said:
> 
> *Another training class that is just two miles from home finally put their schedule online. I've emailed them three times, from different email addy's, just to get info. I promise, I wasn't "pushy." My first email inquired as to whether there were any exceptions to starting from the bottom level Obedience class. Then I thought, well, I might have come across as one of those stupid owners who thinks their dog is "all that," so the next time, I only asked about a schedule for 2012. No answer. A week or two later, I thought, how annoying!!! so I asked for the schedule again.... not one email was responded to. Is that the kind of training facility you'd want to go to even though they DO allow treats/prongs? Keeping in mind, it is apparently required to start from the bottom and the description of it:*
> 
> The place that Sasha and I will (hopefully) be training at is not very responsive to e-mailing but is pretty responsive to phone calls. Not everyone checks their e-mail very option (kind of like how it never dawns on me to check snail mail, older people sometimes aren't good about checking e-mail) so you may try contacting them over the phone if you're really interested in training there.


I think I will get on the phone next week and make some more inquiries. Actually I am not against driving north once a week for a good class!!!!


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## Emoore

What did these people say?
Des Moines Obedience Training Club


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## chelle

Emoore said:


> What did these people say?
> Des Moines Obedience Training Club


That's the one that won't answer emails, but is close to home and is a very distracting environment... but the one I'm sort of leaning towards at this point.


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## Emoore

I'd just drop in to watch a class and speak to the instructor if I were you. I've done that several times.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I have to say at his age, I agree with the no prong. I've taken nearly two dozen classes with four different dogs in the past 10+ years, and not a single one of them allowed prongs in class. You can certainly use one outside of class if you want, but I'd be working hard on engagement and focus right now, and reinforcing the behavior I wanted, and worrying about a corrective collar later. I've always done most of my at home training off leash, unless I'm specifically working on leash walking skills. It can be a challenge, but I think that forced me to learn how to keep the puppy attentive to me and interested and excited about training, and improved my training skills. Even a leash can be a crutch if it's the only thing keeping your dog from wandering off during a training session.

A regular harness can definitely encourage pulling, what I use in classes if I've got a big strong dog who is still not that great on leash is a front hook Sense-ation harness. It's similar to the Easy Walk harness, which is another option. When Halo was in the CGC prep class (she was about Bailey's age at the time, she had just turned 7 months old at the start of the class), I knew that on the last day we'd be doing the test, which could only be taken on a flat collar. So I did all my training both in class and outdoors in public places, on her flat collar. It was HARD! And at first I had a terrible time keeping her focus around all those distractions, but I persevered, and it got easier.


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## StryderPup

Why do you guys think that using a prong is a crutch? I still use a prong with Stryder and had he not had a prong when he was younger.....we would have been in bog trouble. I started with a Martingale and then my trainer gave me a prong to use...we use it on our daily walks....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I've taken a lot of Volhard type classes and they use a collar that Leerburg calls the dominant dog collar (?) but they don't use it on the choke ring. It's something that you fit high and tight and seems to work well. Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition I think is their website I think it's on there (and will look). 

I do have to say that by NOT using the prong you are forced to rely on so many other things that you really do engage with the dog. And agree with PaddyD. Brave man! 

Same as the front clip harness - I have used those KNOWING that they are a crutch. I prefer to use that crutch over a prong crutch though - I think it makes more sense and reminds me more of horseback riding (minus the riding part!) in terms of the rein like control I feel I have with it. 

I have a foster puppy right now - she's untrained for her 11 months, been in 6 placements prior, and is a 42# mix ball of energy and I have the Easy Walk but am working really hard on using the martingale and hope to be able to return the harness to the store. It is a lot more work, but I think we will get farther this way. 

What my dogs WILL do that a dog on a prong or front clip harness might not - is that on occasion when they see something crazy interesting, they will pull until I can get them back with me, or sometimes I make it a command of "let's go seeeee!" so that it's my idea that I am getting dragged somewhere. 

RE: Why these tools are crutches - NOT comparing kids and dogs - just using examples we can relate to as people - if you were a kid I took out for a walk - and you have no tether, or one of those kid leashes, or I held you by your hair, which is going to give me the best control all other things being equal? Probably the hair. Now what are you going to do when I let go of your hair? So I have taught you that I need to be holding your hair for you to behave. However, if I just use the kid leash and help you to understand how I want you to walk with me, you are likely to do this a. when your kid leash is on and b. eventually maybe when we drop the leash. Does this make sense or am I too tired to be posting?


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## StryderPup

Sorry...I did not mean to hijack this thread....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think it goes with! 

Yep - the collar is on that website:

I didn't even know you could use it on the choke ring and wouldn't. ​


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## chelle

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> ....I do have to say that by NOT using the prong you are forced to rely on so many other things that you really do engage with the dog.


Really good point, thank you. I don't want to be reliant on a prong forever. It's been a great tool and allows me so much control. But, developing the relationship and training further so we don't "need" it is important. Imperative, even. I don't want to be close-minded. I just don't want to exchange one band-aid method for another. There are just so many collars and harnesses out there! How to decide which one? 



StryderPup said:


> Sorry...I did not mean to hijack this thread....


Heck, no you didn't!! It is all part of the conversation, I'm glad you asked!


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## selzer

I think that if you are contemplating shooting yourself, over not being able to use a prong, you are a little too attached to your prong, LOL! 

I was thinking that I feel like shooting myself if it doesn't stop raining -- much better than shooting oneself over dog training.


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## chelle

selzer said:


> I think that if you are contemplating shooting yourself, over not being able to use a prong, you are a little too attached to your prong, LOL!
> 
> I was thinking that I feel like shooting myself if it doesn't stop raining -- much better than shooting oneself over dog training.


Haha, no, I'm not *that* attached :rofl:.

Just the frustration of finding a class is ridiculous. Something I forgot to add earlier, too, was that the first class I talked about requires Bordatella. They're the only one of all I've checked into that requires it. I'm not too keen on that.

Thanks for all the input. The no prong is not the end of the world. We can wear it on the way into the facility when his excitement will be high and then go without. I'm interested in finding out if the training collar JeanKBBMMMAAN suggested would be allowed. I think I'm going to get one of those anyway.

Emoore, would love to stop in just to observe but that seems almost impossible around here. You have to come on night #1, usually without the dog, to register. Next week the class starts. At that point, a person could observe probably, but then you've blown six weeks by not signing up.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

chelle said:


> Haha, no, I'm not *that* attached :rofl:.
> 
> Just the frustration of finding a class is ridiculous. Something I forgot to add earlier, too, was that the first class I talked about requires Bordatella. They're the only one of all I've checked into that requires it. I'm not too keen on that.
> 
> Thanks for all the input. The no prong is not the end of the world. We can wear it on the way into the facility when his excitement will be high and then go without. I'm interested in finding out if the training collar JeanKBBMMMAAN suggested would be allowed. I think I'm going to get one of those anyway.
> 
> *Emoore, would love to stop in just to observe but that seems almost impossible around here. You have to come on night #1, usually without the dog, to register. Next week the class starts. At that point, a person could observe probably, but then you've blown six weeks by not signing up.*


If they are doing any training that they've already started, you could visit now and talk about signing up for the next sessions (I'm assuming it starts in January). If they aren't then I guess you're right and have to decide how imperative it is that you start now. 

Have you looked at these people: Canine Craze Performance Center - Central Iowa's Premier Dog Training, Daycare and Boarding Facility

I believe they're in Urbandale, but they look kinda neat. I'm thinking of taking Sasha there this summer to try agility.


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## chelle

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> If they are doing any training that they've already started, you could visit now and talk about signing up for the next sessions (I'm assuming it starts in January). If they aren't then I guess you're right and have to decide how imperative it is that you start now.
> 
> Have you looked at these people: Canine Craze Performance Center - Central Iowa's Premier Dog Training, Daycare and Boarding Facility
> 
> I believe they're in Urbandale, but they look kinda neat. I'm thinking of taking Sasha there this summer to try agility.


Yep, that's the one I was pretty excited about, especially with Sunday classes, and the first one I was talking about in my first post. We still may do that one. The Sunday classes are a *big* plus because the bf is going to take our Shiba and that's the only day of the week he can do it. It'll turn out to be a bit pricey, since I'd have to take two dogs to get Bordatella to get into that class.

And no, no one and I mean no one except for one on one in home training has had any classes down here. Otherwise we would be in one. I can't afford to let another six weeks go by.


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## Whiteshepherds

chelle said:


> Something I forgot to add earlier, too, was that the first class I talked about requires Bordatella.


We've had to show proof that the dogs have had their shots for Bordatella for every trainer we've taken them to and also the local kennel.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I have a question, perhaps a stupid one, but I've seen you mention the Bordatella thing a few times and was wondering if there is a reason you're not really wanting to give it? Sasha hasn't had it either because she isn't around other dogs that much (and almost zero where I don't know the owner very very well), but it seems like a reasonable thing to give a dog that is going to be coming in contact with a bunch of other random dogs. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just wondering if there is a genuine reason why someone might not want to get their dogs vaccinated for it in a situation like this?


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## RebelGSD

Every dog is different. I see nothing wrong in using a prong on an excitable, powerful young male that can drag a person around. Sure there are other methods that accomplish the same. On the other hand, joggling with other methods can stress the owner and distract from the learning process. I would definitely not use the choker on a hyper GSD.


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## chelle

Whiteshepherds said:


> We've had to show proof that the dogs have had their shots for Bordatella for every trainer we've taken them to and also the local kennel.


It is required here for daycare and boarding, but only this training class requires Bordatella. (Or at least I'm going by the websites' requirements for class.)



NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I have a question, perhaps a stupid one, but I've seen you mention the Bordatella thing a few times and was wondering if there is a reason you're not really wanting to give it? Sasha hasn't had it either because she isn't around other dogs that much (and almost zero where I don't know the owner very very well), but it seems like a reasonable thing to give a dog that is going to be coming in contact with a bunch of other random dogs. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just wondering if there is a genuine reason why someone might not want to get their dogs vaccinated for it in a situation like this?


From what I've read -- when Bailey got kennel cough -- summarized, the risks associated with the vaccine are higher than the supposidely beneficial side of them not getting kennel cough. And Bordatella does not at all guarantee they won't get kennel cough anyway. Well, here's one link I'd read about it:
Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy

I didn't enjoy Bailey getting the kennel cough, but it wasn't a big deal. It didn't last *that* long, it didn't change his activity, eating, etc.. we just had to keep him home until it was over.



RebelGSD said:


> Every dog is different. I see nothing wrong in using a prong on an excitable, powerful young male that can drag a person around. Sure there are other methods that accomplish the same. On the other hand, joggling with other methods can stress the owner and distract from the learning process. I would definitely not use the choker on a hyper GSD.


That's kind of my thinking, too. Why change to a completely different thing; harness/halter/you name it. If we go somewhere non-prong, I think we will just work even harder to accomplish it on a buckle. I'm not sure, I need to research more on these various collars and such. And I will never again in this lifetime put a choker on any dog.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

chelle said:


> It is required here for daycare and boarding, but only this training class requires Bordatella. (Or at least I'm going by the websites' requirements for class.)
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've read -- when Bailey got kennel cough -- summarized, the risks associated with the vaccine are higher than the supposidely beneficial side of them not getting kennel cough. And Bordatella does not at all guarantee they won't get kennel cough anyway. Well, here's one link I'd read about it:
> Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy
> 
> I didn't enjoy Bailey getting the kennel cough, but it wasn't a big deal. It didn't last *that* long, it didn't change his activity, eating, etc.. we just had to keep him home until it was over.
> 
> 
> 
> That's kind of my thinking, too. Why change to a completely different thing; harness/halter/you name it. If we go somewhere non-prong, I think we will just work even harder to accomplish it on a buckle. I'm not sure, I need to research more on these various collars and such. And I will never again in this lifetime put a choker on any dog.


Thanks for the info!

About the prong...I use one on Sasha for correcting her when she fully understands what I'm asking (she will ignore vocal or regular collar corrections when really excited). I used one on my golden because he was bigger than me when we were training and I had to make sure I could handle him. I think they're a useful tool. I will never use a choker on a dog for training. I like them as just a slumming around the house collar as it has been my experience that the dogs like them better than flat collars. Also, when I used one (just for slumming or going potty) Sasha actually managed to break one when she got scared and pulled real hard. It was very fast too; I was moving to grab hold of her collar so it didn't constrict while she tried to escape the fireworks, and by the time my hand grabbed her collar she'd broken the ring that the leash clips onto. My girl currently has a martingdale because she likes to try and slip her collar, but that's all we use that for. Right now she's wearing a lovely Christmas collar  No corrections, only jingles


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## BlackPuppy

chelle said:


> That's the one that won't answer emails, but is close to home and is a very distracting environment... but the one I'm sort of leaning towards at this point.


I wouldn't be turned off too much by no email answers, especially this time of the year. They are probably really busy and these people are volunteers and not paid employees. You should try to locate the teacher of the class ou want to take at the training facility and observe him/her training an actual class. 

Since you already took a level one, there's no reason why you would have to retake it. I would not back down on that. Your dog should be able to walk/heel by your side on a loose leash, sit stay for one minute, and come when you call. Those are our general guidelines for OB2. Most of our OB1 students can pass the CGC, or close to it. If you aren't at that level yet, work at home until you are before signing up.

All of our classes (my club) are taught is a huge building with 4 separate rings for different classes. It's loud, and busy. But the real training is done in your home, anyway. 

There also shouldn't be a problem with you using a prong. I used to, and a lot of students in our classes demand them. I also think it's just a crutch and I stopped using them 6 years ago. I use a flat collar, unless there's a chance of the dog slipping out of it, then I will use the martingale for safety purposes. I'm probably one of the few people you will see walking a DS around without a prong.

I hope you find a place. Merry Christmas!


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## BlackPuppy

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I've taken a lot of Volhard type classes and they use a collar that Leerburg calls the dominant dog collar.


I used one of these last year during a Basic I class with my DS, I used it in a couple of classes when he was stressing about too many dogs. He's somewhat reactive, and the collar stops him cold. I was able to unhook it and hook up to his regular collar, but I left it on his neck, but after a few sessions I stopped using it entirely. You'll have to try it on your dog and see how it works for you. It works because there's no slack,so there is immediate correction when the dog decides to take off.


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## chelle

BlackPuppy said:


> *I wouldn't be turned off too much by no email answers, especially this time of the year*. They are probably really busy and these people are *volunteers and not paid employees*. You should try to locate the teacher of the class ou want to take at the training facility and observe him/her training an actual class.
> 
> *Since you already took a level one, there's no reason why you would have to retake it. I would not back down on that*. Your dog should be able to walk/heel by your side on a loose leash, sit stay for one minute, and come when you call. Those are our general guidelines for OB2. *Most of our OB1 students can pass the CGC, or close to it.* If you aren't at that level yet, work at home until you are before signing up.
> 
> All of our classes (my club) are taught is a huge building with 4 separate rings for different classes. It's loud, and busy. *But the real training is done in your home, anyway. *
> 
> There also shouldn't be a problem with you using a prong. I used to, and a lot of students in our classes demand them. I also think it's just a crutch and I stopped using them 6 years ago. I use a flat collar, unless there's a chance of the dog slipping out of it, then I will use the martingale for safety purposes. I'm probably one of the few people you will see walking a DS around without a prong.
> 
> I hope you find a place. Merry Christmas!





BlackPuppy said:


> I used one of these last year during a Basic I class with my DS, I used it in a couple of classes when he was stressing about too many dogs. He's somewhat reactive, and the collar stops him cold. I was able to unhook it and hook up to his regular collar, but I left it on his neck, but after a few sessions I stopped using it entirely. *You'll have to try it on your dog and see how it works for you.* It works because there's no slack,so there is immediate correction when the dog decides to take off.


Thank you, lots of info there. My first email to that facility was actually back in November... but they are volunteers, I understand that. I'm just going to get on the phone on Monday, Tuesday of next week and give up on this dumb emailing stuff.

A number of things you said caught my eye (bolded.)

I do not want to re-take Obedience I. That's something I will very politely inquire about on my phone calls. I am willing to re-take it over taking nothing at all, though. I will find it irritating if we waste expensive class time talking about crate training, nutrition, digging, housebreaking, etc.. I apologize if I come across wrong saying that, but those issues seem to belong more so in a puppy class of some kind? I might be showing my ignorance here, but they seem such basic things.

You said: _"Your dog should be able to walk/heel by your side on a loose leash, sit stay for one minute, and come when you call. " _Bailey can heel on a loose leash with treats or on the prong. We have work to do here. Walking is a weakness, because our activity is always offleash; playing in the yard, the county park, the trails, the dog park. His offleash heel is excellent when using treats - better than onleash. Come when called is stellar. Stays are no problem provided I'm within sight. At home we work on out-of-sight stays and they're about 50%. (Some days I may have to return him to the say a couple/few times before he "gets" he can't break it. This has actually seemed to have gotten worse with time.. ?)

You said your Obed I graduates are nearly ready for CGC and that impresses me.. so I went to the AKC site to look up what must be done to pass the CGC. (Why hadn't I looked that up before?) (V8 to the head here.) What is very interesting to me is that our previous trainer was clearly working on this curriculum, but never told us. Never mentioned CGC. In reading thru the requirements, I'd say we're 75%. He will be an epic fail on the supervised separation.

Anyway... sorry to ramble, I'm always good for that, but you made me think a bit more outside the box, so I appreciate that.


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## Draugr

Ah, too bad you don't live any closer to me, I could direct you to a *great* trainer that makes use of the prong as a good tool. She helped get Samson settled down and back in control of himself in new situations with the prong collar.

The way she introduced it to me I could tell she'd had lots of people have negative reactions to it, she was pretty surprised when I was relieved to hear she was willing to use it. I think it is a great tool and no more of a "crutch" than a normal flat buckle collar is.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you find a good place for you and your dog .


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## Cassidy's Mom

chelle said:


> At home we work on out-of-sight stays and they're about 50%. (Some days I may have to return him to the stay a couple/few times before he "gets" he can't break it. This has actually seemed to have gotten worse with time.. ?)


You're probably pushing the difficulty too quickly. If he's at 50% that means that half the time he's broken the stay before you released him. Allowing him to do that is about the quickest way I can think of to degrade your stay, so I'm not surprised that he seems to be getting worse! 

You want to reinforce that "stay" ALWAYS means to remain in place until released, and the best way to do that is to make sure he succeeds. Every time he gets up and you have to put him back, you're chipping away at his reliability. Back up a step or two, to wherever his stay was solid, and work at that level a little longer. Increase time from there in very small increments. You can also vary the time rather than making it always longer and longer and longer. If he'll reliably stay until released for 30 seconds so a bunch of random times, like 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds, etc. Be unpredictable. I like to return to the dog often to give a treat and then walk away again. I do this several times before finally releasing. Staying should be GOOD, so I want to reward in place often to reinforce that.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Regarding the use of a prong in an obedience class: I agree with not using them. I used to use one in obedience with my dogs, but quickly found that I would often accidentally correct my dogs at the most inopportune moments. If you're teaching something new or relatively new, you don't want to correct them for doing it wrong. It's so easy to "accidentally" correct: the dog does it himself when he gets to the end of the lead. 

We started wearing the prongs to class, but then taking them off before they get into the ring. We're trying to get away from prongs altogether and wishing we would've never started with them in the first place.

Regarding the place that didn't email: it's possible they simply don't check email. I would call.



NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I have a question, perhaps a stupid one, but I've seen you mention the Bordatella thing a few times and was wondering if there is a reason you're not really wanting to give it? Sasha hasn't had it either because she isn't around other dogs that much (and almost zero where I don't know the owner very very well), but it seems like a reasonable thing to give a dog that is going to be coming in contact with a bunch of other random dogs. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just wondering if there is a genuine reason why someone might not want to get their dogs vaccinated for it in a situation like this?


I do not give ANY unnecessary vaccines to my dogs, bordetella included. My Luna gets a mild reaction to the Bordetella vaccine. If places require the vaccine, I call and ask if I can sign a waiver instead (many places allow this, since they're protecting their own butts by requiring the vaccine in the first place). The waiver basically says you won't sue them if your dog gets bordetella. If they don't allow the waiver, I don't go.


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## martemchik

At 7 months old you might be jumping too far ahead. Our training club doesn't have levels like the ones you speak of and the only reason they require every dog to go through beginner is so that they know the HANDLER knows what they are doing and what the AKC commands/motions are like and what is expected of you. Since the obedience is all based on getting the BN, CD, CDX, and onward they have to know that as a trainer you know what all the commands the "judge" can give you mean.

My dog is currently in the "novice" level. We are almost ready to start the CD and he's 17 months old. Most of the dogs in that level are older than him. If my GF decided she wants to train him also, she would have to go through beginner with him and then pass out of intermediate to get into the novice class.

We are allowed to use prongs, and many times they are recommended. I've been weaning mine off the prong and onto a choke chain due to shows, he has gotten his BN so he can work without it. Is there a GSD club anywhere by you? I'd be surprised if there wasn't in such a big city. We train at an all GSD club so that's why I'm wondering. I don't pay by the class or by the session, just a yearly fee, so I guess thats why I wouldn't care if he goes back into lower classes.

I also suggest not pushing him and letting him fail like you do. He's too young for the out of sight stays and you might really be setting him back. I don't know what your goals are, and if you even plan on titling, but bad habits are easier prevented than trained out later on. We have a class that is "novice" and "intermediate" combined since there is not enough dogs on Tuesday, and intermediate people try to push their dogs off leash too fast and their dogs wander off. Without a quick correction the dog doesn't realize its doing something wrong by being 2 feet away from the owner.


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## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You're probably pushing the difficulty too quickly. If he's at 50% that means that half the time he's broken the stay before you released him. Allowing him to do that is about the quickest way I can think of to degrade your stay, so I'm not surprised that he seems to be getting worse!
> 
> You want to reinforce that "stay" ALWAYS means to remain in place until released, and the best way to do that is to make sure he succeeds. Every time he gets up and you have to put him back, you're chipping away at his reliability. Back up a step or two, to wherever his stay was solid, and work at that level a little longer. Increase time from there in very small increments. You can also vary the time rather than making it always longer and longer and longer. If he'll reliably stay until released for 30 seconds so a bunch of random times, like 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds, etc. Be unpredictable. I like to return to the dog often to give a treat and then walk away again. I do this several times before finally releasing. Staying should be GOOD, so I want to reward in place often to reinforce that.


Thank you very much for the advice and reality check. I think I did get too ambitious because his stays were just so good. He was the one dog in class that would never break his stay -- although he had eyes on me the whole time. Eyes-on is a breeze, he never breaks one if he can see me ... so I thought, let's take it up a notch. Worked out pretty well at first, I only went out of sight for 5, 10 seconds. He kept the stay, so I would go a little longer. I was also trying to get rid of saying "stay" with a hand signal after putting him in the sit. You're right, I was trying to do too much. I'll back it down.



martemchik said:


> At 7 months old you might be jumping too far ahead...... I also suggest not pushing him and letting him fail like you do. He's too young for the out of sight stays and you might really be setting him back. I don't know what your goals are, and if you even plan on titling, but bad habits are easier prevented than trained out later on. We have a class that is "novice" and "intermediate" combined since there is not enough dogs on Tuesday, and intermediate people try to push their dogs off leash too fast and their dogs wander off. Without a quick correction the dog doesn't realize its doing something wrong by being 2 feet away from the owner.


Gotcha. I will back down on the out of sight stays, or make them very short, since I know he will hold the really short ones.


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## Cassidy's Mom

chelle said:


> Thank you very much for the advice and reality check. I think I did get too ambitious because his stays were just so good. He was the one dog in class that would never break his stay -- although he had eyes on me the whole time. Eyes-on is a breeze, he never breaks one if he can see me ... so I thought, let's take it up a notch. Worked out pretty well at first, I only went out of sight for 5, 10 seconds. He kept the stay, so I would go a little longer.


Yeah, I hear you - I like to challenge my dogs too. I'd rather push them a bit than keep doing the same thing over and over again until we're both bored out of our minds, lol!

What I would suggest is that the _first_ time he breaks, you take that as a sign that you've gone too far too fast, and back up a step. Break it down into the smallest increments that you can and work at each level until he's reliable before increasing difficulty. Out of sight stays are much harder than with you within sight, so I'd set him up in an area where you can still be close and just duck around a corner for a second. 

You probably already know that you need to work on the three "D"s separately - distance, duration, and distraction, yes? What that means is that even if he's perfect in a 3 minute stay with you two feet away you don't jump straight to expecting a perfect 3 minute stay with you across the room from him. Once you start adding distance you're going to go back to square one on duration, taking a step away then returning to reward, then two steps, then a step to the right and back, a step to the left and back, etc. And doing it all in your living room, even if you've done a ton of work on both distance and duration to the point where you can start to put them together, is going to be completely different than doing it outdoors. Even though you'll go back to the beginning each time you increase the difficulty, he'll progress faster, because he already has the general idea. 

Halo has always had a great stay, in the CGC prep class she was dubbed the "stay star" by one of the other people in the class, a woman who actually worked at the facility where the class was. She was also the youngest dog in the class, at just over 7 months old. In fact, I think she's had the best stay in every class I've taken with her (not all her skills matched her stay, unfortunately, lol!), sometimes by far. But I built that slowly and carefully rather than rushing it.


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## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ....What I would suggest is that the* first time he breaks, you take that as a sign that you've gone too far too fast*, and back up a step. Break it down into the smallest increments that you can and work at each level until he's reliable before increasing difficulty. Out of sight stays are much harder than with you within sight, so I'd set him up in an area where you can still be close and just duck around a corner for a second.
> 
> You probably already know that you need to work on the three "D"s separately - distance, duration, and distraction, yes? What that means is that even if he's perfect in a 3 minute stay with you two feet away you don't jump straight to expecting a perfect 3 minute stay with you across the room from him. Once you start adding distance you're going to go back to square one on duration, taking a step away then returning to reward, then two steps, then a step to the right and back, a step to the left and back, etc. And doing it all in your living room, even if you've done a ton of work on both distance and duration to the point where you can start to put them together, is going to be completely different than doing it outdoors. *Even though you'll go back to the beginning each time you increase the difficulty, he'll progress faster, because he already has the general idea.*
> 
> ..... _But I built that slowly and carefully rather than rushing it_.


Thank you.! That makes a ton of sense, I like how you worded that. As I think about this, I have been rushing it and trying to go too fast thru the steps. Mixing up the three D's too much.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Here's a more detailed writeup of how I teach stay: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...basic/127273-training-issues.html#post1723463

Good luck!


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## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's a more detailed writeup of how I teach stay: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...basic/127273-training-issues.html#post1723463
> 
> Good luck!


Yes, thank you, great post. The best part I took from it, for us, was:

_"When you start working in more distracting environments, decrease both the distance and duration and gradually work your way back up to where you were at home with no distractions."_

Great info, truly taken to heart. Bails was the rock star stayer at Obed I and I have to admit, it made me very proud and happy. He broke his stay once when the trainer went thru the room stomping her feet. We came home and worked on his stay while I stomped my feet, so he was ready for that one the following week and held it. 

I expect too much out of this guy. I've also not been consistent enough with solidifying one area before trying more and harder.

Anyway, thank you! Mama needs to slow down and be happy with the achievements we've made and not push quite so hard.


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## shepherdmom

chelle said:


> That's kind of my thinking, too. Why change to a completely different thing; harness/halter/you name it. If we go somewhere non-prong, I think we will just work even harder to accomplish it on a buckle. I'm not sure, I need to research more on these various collars and such. And I will never again in this lifetime put a choker on any dog.


Its been a while since I've needed to train a dog. My sweet baby is 9. However, last week we went stupid  and added another dog to our household. She is a wild adolecent. My previous trainers all recommended choke collars and it is what I've always used. Apparently I'm way behind the times. What is wrong with choke collars and what is the recommended collar now?


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