# Wanting to breed GSDs to truely better the breed. Opinions Please



## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

Hi everyone,

Now I am sure that I will get some backlash from some people because being a new breeder with no background never goes well. I am solely looking for guidance and I want to breed for the right reasons and could care less if I make a dollar. I will go through and give a little background about myself and then what I plan on doing.

I am a business owner in the auto service industry that has multiple locations and recently purchased a 15 acre property where my small cozy house is located. My girlfriend and I have a German Shepard (spayed) and a German Shepard Husky Mix (nuetered). Being true animal dog lovers we have been doing research on breeding for the past month and have come to the concusion that breeding is something that we would like to consider.

Now something about me is that if I am going to "invest" ( use quotes because I am not really looking to get a return on the investment) time and money that I want to do it the best and for the right reasons. We are developing our land to hold retired horses already and are prepared to build a structure that is attached to the house that would be for breeding. At the moment we have no stud or titled female and are in no rush to acquire one. We are doing the research now at the ground level to breed correctly and to do it for the right reasons. 

A couple of beginner questions that we are having trouble with is should we buy puppies which are cheaper initially but will cost a lot to become a breeding worthy dog and there is always risk involved or to buy a titled male and female that are 2-3 years old? Is it worth buying a puppy from germany and importing it and raising it? Again I am okay with waiting three years and having the dogs solely as a family dog for that time. Being new to the dog breeding world I am someone that will absorb everything told to me and try to improve and learn from everyone on here that is more experienced. 

I thank anyone who reads this thread and await the feedback. Happy to answer any questions as well. I have other questions but I figure it is easier to start with the big question of picking the right puppy and which method is the most responsible.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

What are you looking to do with the breed? Working line? Show lines? Are you looking at genetics? There is so much to it. Your best bet is to find an established breeder and apprentice under them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Cubano!

This question is the mystery. It seems to me to be a "who you know" to give you a start or how much time and money you have to title your dogs. Outside of that, other than mentoring under a breeder with good credentials you will never get anywhere with a breeding plan..... Those with money and time rule - just like anything else.....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Welcome Cubano!

I would start with learning the proper spelling of the breed name.


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

In all honesty after researching I prefer the show breed. I appreciate the honesty about the industry but being of Cuban decent I have always believed that working hard you can achieve anything. Coming from very modest beginning has made me appreciate everything else in life other than money. Having grown ups with dogs my whole life it makes me realize that this is something I really wouls really like to pursue.


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Welcome Cubano!
> 
> I would start with learning the proper spelling of the breed name.


Haha I didn't even realize that, sorry about that guys typed up the paragraph a little fast.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

If you are breeding show lines, you will need to get involved with conformation and dog shows. Proven lines, titles, etc. Go to a dog show. Start there. You will probably be paying big money for a puppywith potential and then there are so many variables. Its really not plug and play. Good luck


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> If you are breeding show lines, you will need to get involved with conformation and dog shows. Proven lines, titles, etc. Go to a dog show. Start there. You will probably be paying big money for a puppywith potential and then there are so many variables. Its really not plug and play. Good luck


Thanks for the advice, I want to do my due diligence now and limit the mistakes later. 

As a few people said earlier how would I become mentored by a breeder? Sounds like a stupid question but my college degree doesn't seem to qualify me for this job unfortunately.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Are you in Cuba? Just a stretch guess. The point of the question being, are there any GSD breeders, clubs or anything GSD related in your area?

If you are in the US - if you give your state and general region, you will get club referrals here...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

as a total novice, your chances of getting a good breeding female from Germany are about the same as my winning the lottery.....you are going to have to "pay your dues"....and that includes getting sold a problem female from Germany! There was a great article by Ricardo Carjabal years and years ago in the USA Magazine....and I have seen it play out over and over....on paper, the dog will look great, but in reality, it has problems and you are an easy solution to some German breeder.

the best you are going to do is to buy a young started or titled female from a big kennel here to show (if you are into show lines) and learn from the ground up. You will probably pay big bucks, be required to keep the breeders name on as co-owner and let them made the decisions as to breeding and training and shows....

But if you stay with the program, you will learn! The breeder will help you sell pups when the time comes, and you will learn to evaulate them with their help.

Do not just jump into buying a titled in whelp bitch or in 4 months you will have have, if you are lucky and have no disasters, 5-8 dogs and tons of calls looking for a $300 dog.

Lee


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Are you in Cuba? Just a stretch guess. The point of the question being, are there any GSD breeders, clubs or anything GSD related in your area?
> 
> If you are in the US - if you give your state and general region, you will get club referrals here...


He is from Chicago...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Heed Wolfstraums advice, it is good advice!


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> as a total novice, your chances of getting a good breeding female from Germany are about the same as my winning the lottery.....you are going to have to "pay your dues"....and that includes getting sold a problem female from Germany! There was a great article by Ricardo Carjabal years and years ago in the USA Magazine....and I have seen it play out over and over....on paper, the dog will look great, but in reality, it has problems and you are an easy solution to some German breeder.
> 
> the best you are going to do is to buy a young started or titled female from a big kennel here to show (if you are into show lines) and learn from the ground up. You will probably pay big bucks, be required to keep the breeders name on as co-owner and let them made the decisions as to breeding and training and shows....
> 
> ...


Thank you that was very helpful and informative. So I am guessing try to get a stud puppy is even harder. It seems to make more sense to buy from here in the U.S. as we can see the dogs first hand. Another point I would like to bring up is if I buy a male of female that is already titled wouldn't that mean that the breeder is probably selling it because the dog is not good enough for their breeding standards?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Talk to breeders. Find a mentor. Study and learn before you buy anything.
Breeding is so much more than getting a dog and a bitch and letting them reproduce.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Most breeders don't keep a stud that they use necessarily for their own breedings (good breeders anyway). Your male may not bring to the table the things needed to complement the female you have. Most, after careful considering of what they need and what bloodlines they do or do not want, will choose an outside stud.


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

Sunflowers said:


> Talk to breeders. Find a mentor. Study and learn before you buy anything.
> Breeding is so much more than getting a dog and a bitch and letting them reproduce.


Not planning on buying this animal until I am confident that I know exactly what to do. It is interesting that people are saying to get the female as I would have thought that being patient and looking for the male would have been to appropriate approach.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Before you decide on dogs and all that good stuff find out what the codes are in the town and county on extra buildings and kennel licenses, etc.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

To better the breed leave it to people with experience and enjoy the dogs that you have.

Down the road with some understanding of the whole selection process you might make better decisions regarding breeding.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is my advice -

read until your eyeballs fall out of your head .

you should have an historical background of the breed -- the key aspects of what and how the character defined the breed , the foundational years , the golden era, the present day and what is looming for the future .

understand that there is essentially no one "breed" of the GSD . Since the late 60's , early 70's , the breed in Germany was divided into show lines and working lines . There is no chance of this changing. 
The other split was the development of a north "American" show line which is a natural , logical , evolution unlike the West German split. The "American" dog developed to suit the needs and sentiments of the people . 
Some years ago the SV wanted to cut the chord and take away the name "German" shepherd as it is essentially a different breed . That move was lost .
So there are three distinct divisions within one breed heading - all three no longer sharing genetics for some 60 years , each with a unique type , fulfilling requirements if one were to create and register a "new" breed.
Work and sport each have differences. 
Make your self familiar with all of these .

read suggestions -- just a start The Illustrated Standard for the German Shepherd Dog
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

a lively discussion started by Cliff http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

The last thing you need is a stud dog .

The first thing that you need is experience and information.

A question for you --- what do you see is the biggest problem in the breed to accomplish this "*Wanting to breed GSDs to truely better the breed."*


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Well said Carmen..Couldn't agree more.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

MadLab said:


> To better the breed leave it to people with experience and enjoy the dogs that you have.
> 
> Down the road with some understanding of the whole selection process you might make better decisions regarding breeding.


Bingo. There are plenty of experienced people already "bettering the breed," and no shortage of dogs and puppies.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A great breeding kennel is built on great females *AND* a breeder with knowledge. To get that knowledge you need to "read to your eyeballs fall out" as Carmen said, go to shows, go to trials, meet up with people who are working and showing their dogs, find a mentor and then buy the best female a breeder will co-own with you and spend years training, showing and titling her. Accept failures, be very honest with yourself and very critical of your dogs. 

A small breeder owns and works with females. Then they have the option of using any male in the world. Larger breeders can often justify owning a male or two because they have a much larger amount of females with a variety of bloodlines, structure and temperaments. If you just want to get your feet wet and get experience in training, showing and trialing then a male is fine. Find a good male and get out there and learn. Don't look at the dog for breeding. Look at him as experience. 

Breeding of any sort, but especially breeding of a working breed, should never be taken on lightly. The GSD has a lot of health issues that must be understood. They have a very intricate and challenging temperament with drives and character issues that must be understood. There are already enough junk breeders out there that don't care. If you don't want to fall into that category than take your time and pay your dues.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Cubano22---if I remember correctly, Chicago-area, correct? I would check out the GSD Training Club of Chicago (in Hanover Park, outside of Bloomingdale area)---very knowledgeable group to connect with locally (here is their site: German Shepherd Dog Training Club of Chicago Homepage) 

Good luck!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I would go to a number of different gsd clubs/ipo clubs and talk to people after you get a sense of who seems to know what. Discuss your goals. A knowledgable person can head you to a good pup or help you connect with a reputable person who also imports dogs. What I'm saying is that you will have a lot better luck once you have established some connections. And yes, read till your eyes fall out and none of it makes any sense any longer. Give it a rest and re read. I would give it quite a bit of time hanging out with people before I decided who I thought knew squat. (It's often the person who is a bit taciturn rather than the friendly fellow.) The knowledgable person may help you get a young male and title him with the idea that the pup would be a good match for one of his females. In return for the breeding, you may get a pup from that litter etc. 

So basically, you don't want to start this on your own. You want to establish some connections and prove that you are serious.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

lhczth said:


> A great breeding kennel is built on great females *AND* a breeder with knowledge. To get that knowledge you need to "read to your eyeballs fall out" as Carmen said, go to shows, go to trials, meet up with people who are working and showing their dogs, find a mentor and then buy the best female a breeder will co-own with you and spend years training, showing and titling her. Accept failures, be very honest with yourself and very critical of your dogs.
> 
> A small breeder owns and works with females. Then they have the option of using any male in the world. Larger breeders can often justify owning a male or two because they have a much larger amount of females with a variety of bloodlines, structure and temperaments. If you just want to get your feet wet and get experience in training, showing and trialing then a male is fine. Find a good male and get out there and learn. Don't look at the dog for breeding. Look at him as experience.
> 
> Breeding of any sort, but especially breeding of a working breed, should never be taken on lightly. The GSD has a lot of health issues that must be understood. They have a very intricate and challenging temperament with drives and character issues that must be understood. There are already enough junk breeders out there that don't care. If you don't want to fall into that category than take your time and pay your dues.



Lisa just saved me a bunch of typing! 

Females - the breed is built on females.....

We all strive to meet and even to exceed the standard....very few dogs actually meet the standard.....thus the people with females control breeding - they CHOOSE what males get breedings, the owner of the male just has to hope someone wants to use his male.....good breeders never start off with a male.....my second dog was a male I absolutely loved dearly....I had him and a Sch3 female at the same time - I took the female to HIS FATHER - because what I loved about him came from his father, and there were things that his mother's family was producing that did not fit in my goals.....

You need a female, and a breeder to guide you....and as Carmen said - read your eyeballs out....the Iceberg Breeders thread has fantastic food for thought.


Lee


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

Thank you everyone for the input, I really do appreciate it and don't worry I plan on reading until my eyes fall out haha. I will definitely read the attached articles and look into the clubs around Chicago. The point made about the connections I found very valuable as going to shows and meeting experienced people will only help me. As it stands right now the thought of going with a female with a good pedigree seems like the most logical choice and training it with no breeding in mind until it is titled. In order to get to that level of training I'm sure it takes a more serious trainer that has trained dogs for these competitions before. I think the best course of action is to go to these shows as a spectator and a fan and make these initial connections with the professionals.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Cubano22 said:


> Thank you everyone for the input, I really do appreciate it and don't worry I plan on reading until my eyes fall out haha. I will definitely read the attached articles and look into the clubs around Chicago. The point made about the connections I found very valuable as going to shows and meeting experienced people will only help me. As it stands right now the thought of going with a female with a good pedigree seems like the most logical choice and training it with no breeding in mind until it is titled. In order to get to *that level of training I'm sure it takes a more serious trainer that has trained dogs for these competitions before.* I think the best course of action is to go to these shows as a spectator and a fan and make these initial connections with the professionals.


The thing that makes a good breeder an outstanding one, is the fact that they actually do train/title and understand their dogs strengths and weaknesses because of all that training. Then they can make proper breeding decisions based on that knowledge they gained throughout that training process. Selecting a stud that will complement is yet another very time consuming task.
They do NOT send their dogs out for titles just so they can breed titled dogs, nor do they constantly change out their breeding bitches. They use what they breed for future generations.

If you are on fb, this page has some really good breeders contributing, there are files you could read as well. There are many other fb pages with breeders, some are less than responsible and do not have the ethics that this page does: https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/?fref=ts


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you want to get a feel for the show "thing", the USCA Sieger Show will be in Indianapolis in April this year. 

Home ? USCA Sieger Show

This is a conformation show, sort of the conformation show championship for European style dogs, for the types of dogs you are probably most interested in. 3 days starting Friday with the performance test. I would highly recommend coming down.


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## Cubano22 (Jan 11, 2016)

lhczth said:


> If you want to get a feel for the show "thing", the USCA Sieger Show will be in Indianapolis in April this year.
> 
> Home ? USCA Sieger Show
> 
> This is a conformation show, sort of the conformation show championship for European style dogs, for the types of dogs you are probably most interested in. 3 days starting Friday with the performance test. I would highly recommend coming down.



Thank you I will definitely go down there. Already put it in the calendar. Probably wouldn't do a purchase of a puppy until after I go to the show and talk to some people. I also read a bill from the Illinois government that says they are trying to pass a breeding license the breeders would need. I think it is a good idea wondering what you guys think. Also what kind of structure would you guys recommend would be best and responsible for the dogs?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You might want to start a new thread with that question. 

ADMIN Lisa


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