# Hardness



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Can we get a discussion going about hardness in the GSD? I think my 6 mo old WGWL has it. He's a very sweet, loving & affectionate pup, but impervious to corrections of any kind.

Fortunately, he's got food drive off the charts & likes verbal praise & toys.

He loves people & other dogs (I wanted a social pup). He's really powerful & the prong doesn't affect him at all. Food & praise get him under control most of the time. Keeps me from going face first into the asphalt.

His obedience is quick & flashy. He LOVES tracking. And everything can be a tug toy to him. Redirect usually works.

I've never has a dog so unmoved by corrections, including the prong. 

Am I seeing true hardness in this guy? He doesn't react to corrections with any aggression--they just don't exist for him.

He's got a lot of drive & good nerves, so I have high hopes for him. I'm not used to this lack of handler sensitivity. I'm glad he's got such a nice temperament.

So, how does everyone define hardness?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Had a good discussion of this at a seminar a few years ago. Hardness can also be look at as resilience....the ability to not be adversely affected by a correction...and a dog can be hard/resilient and still be handler sensitive. Csabre gets higher and higher the longer you play/work with her....she starts to refuse to out a ball even....she was given one heck of a correction by direction of Roland Siebel....did not phase her, she did out ball after that (for that session LOL)....Dean Calderon pointed out that this was hardness - she did not shut down, stayed in drive, accepted that correction, complied and continued without any negative results.

At the same time, this is a handler sensitive dog who WANTS to please you, wants to work with you....have never needed to use an e-collar on her, and really, minimal corrections ever needed in training.

Your corrections are apparently not phasing him as they are not strong enough to affect him....a hard dog can take a pretty aggressive correction as I saw that day.

Lee


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Zebu is a really hard dog. He takes a 127 e collar stim and the only way you know it made contact is you can see the involuntary muscle contraction. Can prong him hard and it'll probably just make him angry. 

It is effective at reducing the incident of punished behavior so it isn't ineffective it just doesn't shut him down or pull him out of drive. He's very matter of fact about it because I'm very matter of fact about administering it. There is a social component to it though. I don't punish him that hard anymore. Enough to be annoying mostly. Every so often I give him a come to Jesus one but when they understand what punishment is why it happens and that it isn't that big of a deal I've found it is less about the force of a punishment and more about correct procedure.

With Crank I noticed when he was a younger puppy I had to use a lot more force then than I do now because of the social component and the understanding he now has about why it happens and how to avoid it.

To the OP if your corrections are ineffective you're not doing enough. All dogs have a point it gets to them and then once they understand you can go there you don't usually have to "go there" as often or as hard. Really hard dogs can be hard for some handlers because what used to floor a dog they had before just gets shrugged off by the hard dog and they find they have to practically wail on a dog to get their point across especially when that dog is in drive. Some people just can't do it, but that's why e collars got invented.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I always figured he'd need an e collar eventually. Recommendations, please? Thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I could be way off but I see hardness as something that tends to go along with clear-headedness: a dog that can take a hard (physically or mentally) yet fair correction and work through it, bounce back, and make progress in his training and work. I don't necessarily see hardness as a dog simply ignoring tough corrections and being stubborn or so crazed up he cannot think. I like a dog that can take physical and mental pressure from both the handler and a helper (or the environment) and work through that with confidence in himself. I do not see it as a dog that is just ignoring really rough corrections and ignoring the handler. Also I like dogs that have good secondary obedience in protection. I do not believe protection is a three-way fight between a dog, helper, and handler. I've seen this a lot with people insisting their dogs are so tough and need insane corrections and it ALWAYS ends up causing problems between the dog and handler in other phases. A dog can be a very tough, hard, resilient dog but also be clear-headed and a fun dog to train without having to constantly ramp up the corrections. I have a young dog that can take harder physical corrections than I've ever given a dog yet I do not describe him as a hard dog, he actually lacks confidence in himself and is very immature, mentally. He is 13 months old and has not done any bitework yet, none, and not sure if he will do IPO or not (I did not keep him for IPO so it makes no difference to me).


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Orick, my Czech rescue, seems to be a hard dog by nature, he certainly is now. But he is all full of confidence and security now, unlike when I got him. He had been with us about a week when I was sitting on the couch, and he was sitting at my knee. One of my other boys came to me for some affection and Orick went at him. I gave him a loud verbal correction, and he totally shut down, he dropped immediately. He lay in a ball at my feet for about 15 minutes. Then I got up, said 'C'mon boys, let's go out.' Orick got up and trotted outside with the rest, as if nothing had happened. I was careful with him for a long time after that, but it really didn't take long for him to show his true self. Now nothing fazes him, and it does take a hard correction for him to respond. 

Orick hasn't gone quite as far as another GSD I had years ago, though--a DDR boy who would 'correct' me when I corrected him, and look me in the eye as if to say, 'Now correct THIS.' With him I found that the best way to work him was ignore him, ignore his infractions, and just work right on as if they didn't exist. He then quit that behavior (because it didn't have any effect on me) to try another! He ended up one of my best and most obedient dogs!

Susan


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I think hardness is when a dog is able to use built up aggression from corrections rather than shut down.
Robust or strong is what we use for a dog to be able to take a high amount of corrections due to a high pain tolerance. 
Most I see people who think the have a hard dog because they correct and correct, the dog is not responding. 

Other times you see a dog pulling towards something and a Will ignore a hard correction this is called high drive intensity, some of these dogs can be quite soft when not in drive.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> I think hardness is when a dog is able to use built up aggression from corrections rather than shut down.
> Robust or strong is what we use for a dog to be able to take a high amount of corrections due to a high pain tolerance.
> *Most I see people who think the have a hard dog because they correct and correct, the dog is not responding. *
> 
> Other times you see a dog pulling towards something and a Will ignore a hard correction this is called high drive intensity, some of these dogs can be quite soft when not in drive.


In the bold above--because they don't know what they are doing--it's like giving a horse a hard mouth because you have heavy hands on the bit. 

Susan


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

For me, a nagging correction that does nothing..is abusive. Time to rethink what will work and why.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

I agree with the last couple of posters. I do believe that some "hard" dogs exist, but the vast majority of handlers that think they have a hard dog are just dogs with poor foundations in understanding of a correction. The handlers inadvertently teach the dog to withstand a lot of punishment, all the while not teaching the dog much. I wrote an article about this phenomenon on my blog as it relates to the e-collar. See it HERE


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

wolfmanusf said:


> I agree with the last couple of posters. I do believe that some "hard" dogs exist, but the vast majority of handlers that think they have a hard dog are just dogs with poor foundations in understanding of a correction. The handlers inadvertently teach the dog to withstand a lot of punishment, all the while not teaching the dog much. I wrote an article about this phenomenon on my blog as it relates to the e-collar. See it HERE


:thumbup: There is no "like" button so I'll go with the thumb up.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A hard dog is a dog that is resilient to pressure whether from the handler, the helper/decoy or the environment.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> A hard dog is a dog that is resilient to pressure whether from the handler, the helper/decoy or the environment.


Lisa,

That sounds like a good description of my pup. He's a happy go lucky guy who can handle a prong correction without flinching. We've been working him with the helper on the flirt pole, no issues there.

Fortunately, he does respond well to food & praise. The more he matures, the more praise motivated he becomes.

I can see the need for an e collar later, working down field away from him. He's bonded very well & prefers to be where I am.

The last pup I raised myself was super handler sensitive, probably too much so, though his nerves were excellent. So this is a real change & I'm finding I really have to change my approach.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

My pup is the same way. Food motivated, and especially with the ball. However, when get gets in drive he is very focused. However, sometimes he focuses too much on something he shouldn't be, and listening to me isn't a priority. I'm working with a trainer currently to help me. 
I've never had a high drive dog before, and I need more guidance on how to train him properly. 
He's also at that 14 month stage where he's starting to randomly get testy and previously listened to commands, he's not now. 
When he is corrected, it doesn't phase him and he will keep doing what he's doing. 
Sometimes for certain things, like going to the car. He pulls right thru his prong and screams/cries and has pulled me over just to get to the car. I praise for the right behavior and reward, we stop when he pulls, and treat when he stops making noise, and then he doesn't get rewarded for the bad behavior, but his want to do he bad behavior is so great, he doesn't care about the reward, even if it's high value. 
I'm hoping my new trainer can help with this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> Zebu is a really hard dog. He takes a 127 e collar stim and the only way you know it made contact is you can see the involuntary muscle contraction. Can prong him hard and it'll probably just make him angry.
> 
> It is effective at reducing the incident of punished behavior so it isn't ineffective it just doesn't shut him down or pull him out of drive. He's very matter of fact about it because I'm very matter of fact about administering it. There is a social component to it though. I don't punish him that hard anymore. Enough to be annoying mostly. Every so often I give him a come to Jesus one but when they understand what punishment is why it happens and that it isn't that big of a deal I've found it is less about the force of a punishment and more about correct procedure.
> 
> With Crank I noticed when he was a younger puppy I had to use a lot more force then than I do now because of the social component and the understanding he now has about why it happens and how to avoid it.


I'd like to know what makes a dog so disobedient that you need to go up to 127 to get any type of reaction?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It doesn't always mean so disobedient, but sometimes that big stick, to show them its there, helps make that small stick have some meaning.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd like to know what makes a dog so disobedient that you need to go up to 127 to get any type of reaction?


When you have a dog that is genetically so insensitive to stim you need to go high on the collar for a punishment level stim that means anything to the dog. In the behavior I introduced that it was simply a contact heel and when he came off the leg because he was distracted by dogs or whatever was catching his attention that he wasn't focusing on the task at hand I nicked him at 127. He tightened up and got the point without any drama. 

It is about obedience that is being bomb proofed under any and all distraction not disobedience. You can proof a dog at very very naggy levels of correction and then introduce something slightly new and the dog goes right back to needing the corrections again, or you can go at a higher level and then there's bleed over to where the dog will continue the behavior he was supposed to even in the face of new distractions because of an understanding of what it would mean to fail and an unwillingness to test a scenario. People have seen my dog work and how happy and care free he does it. Done well the dog doesn't freak out because there is a deep understanding of why the consequence occurs and how to avoid it in the future.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Are we talking about true hardness or just hard-headedness? I think most pups are just hard headed. True hardness is more rare. I would think that true hardness is the grit to tough out a hard job despite pain, fatigue and resistance.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

robk said:


> Are we talking about true hardness or just hard-headedness? I think most pups are just hard headed. True hardness is more rare. I would think that true hardness is the grit to tough out a hard job despite pain, fatigue and resistance.


This.

Most times when I see a dog someone tells me is really "hard" and "tough" because he can take the top level on the old school German e-collar or whatever, it's really a dog that is just crazy over a ball or sleeve on the ground or something like that. Then when real pressure is applied (like physical and mental pressure from a good helper or decoy), the dog is no longer acting very hard or tough. Biting starts to suffer, dog won't out, dog is screaming on the sleeve, dog is looking around because he's more worried about the handler than the helper, etc. I think there are plenty of dogs that are truly tough, hard dogs (at least tough enough to get the job done), but I don't really see the level of e-collar stim as a measure of this hardness. The truly tough dogs I have observed have also been more clear-headed, very in control of everything including not letting themselves get worked into a frenzy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A dogs nerves (how it deals with pressure from a handler or decoy or strange situation) is separate from their sensitivity or insensitivity to cold heat pain or discomfort.

Hardness is more about the later
Nerves or temperament is more about the former 

True hardness is genetic but it can be created.

A dog that becomes insensitive through repeated punishment over time isn't genetically a true hard dog it just has a punishment callus.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just don't see a lack of self-preservation as hardness. I think a truly hard dog is very much in control, whereas a dog just ignoring pain or corrections because he's so "driven" for a certain thing is a reactive frenzy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not that a dog is ignoring because it wants something. Dogs will shrug corrections out of drive just because they are insensitive.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Just when I thought "I get it"....nope lost it again.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Bailiff is descrbing my pup. His indifference to corrections has nothing to do with drive. If there is a distraction interesting enough, he falls out of food drive & ignores collar corrections, **** bent on dragging me over to see the new human or dog. He doesn't stay out of food drive long, but long enough to be uncontrollable. There are only so many yank & cranks you can do. He laughs at the prong.

That's why I'm thinking e collar is the way to go with him.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That still sounds like drive. I'm saying a hard dog if you had him calm and standing in front of you and you said sit and he just blew the command off and you nicked him with the collar or otherwise corrected at a high level would just non chantly take it and not be very concerned with what just happened. At lower levels the dog wouldn't even feel it.

Not all dogs feel stimulus the same way.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If the dog has already seen the stimuli it means he's probably in drive and if he has a high enough tolerance he won't care about a correction.

I'd like to see a video of your 6 month old completely ignoring a proper prong correction. I've yet to see a dog that young completely ignore proper prong corrections.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah prong is gonna do the job if done right


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> That still sounds like drive. I'm saying a hard dog if you had him calm and standing in front of you and you said sit and he just blew the command off and you nicked him with the collar or otherwise corrected at a high level would just non chantly take it and not be very concerned with what just happened. At lower levels the dog wouldn't even feel it.
> 
> Not all dogs feel stimulus the same way.


I'm starting to see your point. His obedience is actually quick & flashy. Unless there's a distraction & he loses his mind.

He's nearly impossible to correct in the house, though. Can't keep a tab line on him, he gnaws right through them.

He's actually a really nice dog, I'm just used to a little more handler sensitivity.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah there is probably way more to it than hardness of the dog. If you're pronging with bad timing inappropriate intensity or the dog isn't clear on the meaning of the correction you might just be jazzing the dog up more with the prong collar. It's handler error in there somewhere.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Yeah there is probably way more to it than hardness of the dog. If you're pronging with bad timing inappropriate intensity or the dog isn't clear on the meaning of the correction you might just be jazzing the dog up more with the prong collar. It's handler error in there somewhere.


Handler error, no doubt.

He did better this morning, I'm getting tougher with his prong. He only lost it once, when he saw a human--he loves people. The only way I could get him back under control was to stop walking entirely. We do 2 mi very early, like 4 am.

On my TD's advice, I'm using a medium weight HS on him. Should I switch to the heavy one?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Go small. The 2.3mm size is the only size you should go with. If the dog is losing it at all you are moving backwards. You have to stop the behavior progression very early.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

zetti said:


> Can we get a discussion going about hardness in the GSD? I think my 6 mo old WGWL has it. He's a very sweet, loving & affectionate pup, but impervious to corrections of any kind.
> 
> Fortunately, he's got food drive off the charts & likes verbal praise & toys.
> 
> ...


What you're describing I'd describe as stoic, not hardness per se. Hardness is more/includes mental pressure (when I use the word hardness anyway). Maybe you are also mentally/emotionally pressuring him with your corrections, or maybe he is off in la-la land in drive and just doesn't mind the correction there. Hardness I feel can only really be evaluated when you put very real pressure on the dog (as a decoy). 

So, an MMA fighter who is really trading blows but stays focused and in the game is hard. Rocky is a hard fictional character. Matt Damon's character in "Goodwill Hunting" is hard. All medal of honor recipients are hard. Both brothers in "Warrior" are hard.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

zetti said:


> Bailiff is descrbing my pup. His indifference to corrections has nothing to do with drive. If there is a distraction interesting enough, he falls out of food drive & ignores collar corrections, **** bent on dragging me over to see the new human or dog. He doesn't stay out of food drive long, but long enough to be uncontrollable. There are only so many yank & cranks you can do. He laughs at the prong.
> 
> That's why I'm thinking e collar is the way to go with him.


It is drive that is doing that to him. Either your corrections are not at the right level, or the dog doesn't understand that you are correcting him and you should work on "communication" at lower drive states. Any indifference to the prong will be the same eventually on an e-collar, or any other tool you choose to use.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Go small. The 2.3mm size is the only size you should go with. If the dog is losing it at all you are moving backwards. You have to stop the behavior progression very early.


+1. I only use 2.3mm HS prongs if I'm using a prong. Gave away all my larger ones


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *zetti*
> _Bailiff is descrbing my pup. His indifference to corrections has nothing to do with drive. If there is a distraction interesting enough, he falls out of food drive & ignores collar corrections, **** bent on dragging me over to see the new human or dog. He doesn't stay out of food drive long, but long enough to be uncontrollable. There are only so many yank & cranks you can do. He laughs at the prong.
> 
> ...


Zetti~ Just curious.. How old is your pup? And how much work have you done around distractions? 

I guess if it were me... I'd back way up and get the dog more into me and the toy/food.. I'm not saying you can't correct... But if your dog is focused MORE on someone/something else.. then to me that's an engagement problem.. and you need to address that with less stimuli and then build on it.. 

Something I had to do with my pup, as he really didn't need me for his enjoyment.. I worked hard on me being more important to him and it wasn't about corrections or how hard to correct or what tool to use!

And on the small prongs.. you do have to be careful with the corrections as I've seen too many bend and break apart..


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

G-burg said:


> But if your dog is focused MORE on someone/something else.. then to me that's an engagement problem.. and you need to address that with less stimuli and then build on it..



Ding ding ding we have a winner.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

G-burg said:


> Zetti~ Just curious.. How old is your pup? And how much work have you done around distractions?
> 
> I guess if it were me... I'd back way up and get the dog more into me and the toy/food.. I'm not saying you can't correct... But if your dog is focused MORE on someone/something else.. then to me that's an engagement problem.. and you need to address that with less stimuli and then build on it..
> 
> ...


 Yes....^^^^^^. It is disturbing to see people recommending all the corrective devices without addressing what is most likely at the core of the problem. This is just a six month old puppy? Is that what I read?....you have a long way to go in his training. Micro pinch collars are pretty severe on the scale of corrections...not for such a young pup IMO.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

LOL, I'm getting confused.. What do you say about this: my dog is VERY resilient to corrections, but only when they come from someone else than me. He can be knocked down and he just gets really aggressive, but from me a small leash correction is enough. He seems to be very hard and very soft at the same time.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

G-burg said:


> Zetti~ Just curious.. How old is your pup? And how much work have you done around distractions?
> 
> I guess if it were me... I'd back way up and get the dog more into me and the toy/food.. I'm not saying you can't correct... But if your dog is focused MORE on someone/something else.. then to me that's an engagement problem.. and you need to address that with less stimuli and then build on it..
> 
> ...


The pup is 7 mos. The collar is a medium weight HS. We've been working on walks ar 4 am--almost no distractions. I don't think he's ready.

How would you suggest I make myself more interesting than a human or other dog--he's just so social. He has been well socialized as a youngster.

Right now, he's going through a nasty bout with panno in both front legs ( it can be worse, I had a dog 10 yrs ago have it in all 4 legs). So we're not working. This is a good time for me to learn.

When he does fuss, he's very flashy & attentive. Up until he spots a human or dog. The prong barely makes a dent in him, he's so over excited.

He's also semi velcro, he stays close to me naturally at home & when we're out, another trait I love. Though he shows plenty of confidence in new locations & that's when the dragging starts.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Jarkko said:


> LOL, I'm getting confused.. What do you say about this: my dog is VERY resilient to corrections, but only when they come from someone else than me. He can be knocked down and he just gets really aggressive, but from me a small leash correction is enough. He seems to be very hard and very soft at the same time.


Sounds like your dog is handler sensitive.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

zetti said:


> The pup is 7 mos. The collar is a medium weight HS. We've been working on walks ar 4 am--almost no distractions. I don't think he's ready.
> 
> How would you suggest I make myself more interesting than a human or other dog--he's just so social. He has been well socialized as a youngster.
> 
> ...


Not an expert. But I would say you need to back track around stimuli that he has trouble with and just start by asking for focus and engagement at small increments and work up to complicated behaviors like heeling. The puppy is only 7 months. No need to rush, you have over half a year before you could even consider a BH. Why be in a hurry? Heeling around heavy distraction is not something I would ask of a puppy.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Is it going to confuse him if I walk him without making him fuss? When his panno isn't acting up as it is today, I take him with me on my morning 2 mi walk. I use treats to keep him focused. I don't use the fuss command, just tell him "let's go".

If I just let him be a puppy on his walk, is that going to screw him up? I think I know the answer, but I need validation that it won't.

Of course, now he'll expect treats when we walk.

He's fine, I've confused myself.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think its important to let him be a dog on a walk and not always stay right next to me. Most of the time, mine is 8' from me, sniffing, seeing the world. When I want him next to me, I use an informal command and I don't reward or do anything that brings very much attention to me. I put the emphasis on the release, to let him move out and go sniff. 

It takes a few walks, I just shorten up the leash a little and tell him "With me" Walk him past something like a lawn, and casually tell him ok and guide him towards the lawn or tree or whatever.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dog has focused heeling to die for, and acts like a wild animal most of the time otherwise. All depends on what you're willing to deal with. as long as she's not being stupidly leash reactive or pulling my arm out of socket, I truly don't care what she wants to do on walks.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I strongly agree with what some of the posts already point out, and in my own words - this is a puppy so slow down the expectations and build a relationship based on trust and clear communication. A bunch of corrections at this age is going to only decrease the pups enjoyment factor with you and increase the desire to be anywhere except with you. I strongly agree that people should let a puppy walk and experience its surroundings, it can't do that if the owner is requiring a focused heel. Young dogs need to smell and look to learn about the human environment we expect them to live in. The enjoyable relaxed walk will also help build a desire to be with you. Fundamentally, I think it is important to TEACH a pup/dog that they can get what they want (food, praise, play) thru doing what you want using modern (classical and operant) training methods appropriate for a young dog. If the pup/dog doesn't understand this concept and people get into a pattern of corrections to teach, they most likely are training the dog that it must endure punishment to get thru life. Some people like to think this is a hard dog but in reality it is confused and insensitive with learned endurance to pain. A dog trained this way will not ever have the kind of relationship with its handler that produces a consistent high level of partnership and the awesome behavior that comes with that. And I am not saying that physical corrections are never needed in dog training, we are talking puppy training and I am trying to keep this short and simple.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

And I skipped a question that the OP asked - just walking and enjoying the walk is not going to screw up focused heeling because you have not asked for focused heeling. Focused heeling at a young age should be kept short and in drive. If the pup is going to compete it is important to make a clear distinction of when the pup is "working" and when it's just playing and enjoying a walk.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How confident are you that you have the prong fitted correctly and that you know how to deliver a sharp correction with a prong collar? There is definitely a skill set involved.


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