# Kibble Feeders: Who DOESN'T feed grain-free? Why?



## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Most people, myself included, have seen the great benefits of feeding grain free kibble. But I know there are people out there that for whatever reason choose not to. 

For those of you who don't already know, I feed RAW and kibble to my dogs for financial reasons. (Otherwise, I'd go full on RAW.) The dogs evening kibble meal is currently a grain free kibble, but I am seriously considering switching to a brand called Lukullus. This kibble has brown rice in it.

I'm curious to see how many of you kibble feeders out there have opted for a kibble that ISN'T grain free and why you chose to do so. 

Also, here are the ingredients of Lukullus. Any thoughts?

Beef meal (28%), brown rice, trout meal (6%), cold-pressed rapeseed oil, algae, alfalfa, beets, rice germs, herbs, pears, apples, egg yolk powder, caraway, linseed oil, carob, silica, kieselgur, yucca schidigera, bilberries, trace elements, vitamins


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't fee grain free. I was going to switch, but why would I if the dogs are healthy, like the food, have a nice coat, and poop is good. They are doing well with what they eat and I doubt I'll change it. We are all comfortable


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I feed Fromm, Jazzy eats the grain free varieties of their Four Star Line. Delgado eats their LBP for now which unfortunately isn't grain free but he will be switched


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The only benefit I see to grain free kibble is the reduction of gluten and that the proteins in the grains can be allergens (as can proteins from any source-grains, meats, peas - even potatoes). Gluten can also cause problems with nutrient absorbtion.

There are gluten free grains. (amaranth, brown rice, buckwheat,corn, millet, quinoa, sorghum, teff). Peas and beans are gluten free but the proteins bring allergy possibilities there as well. Corn is genetically modified (GMO) in such large numbers and has usually been sprayed with herbicides during its growth--virtually all corn has been "infected" with the genes from GMO corn, even organic corn, which by definition cannot be GMO. [same thing is also true for canola and soybeans and all these GMO producs are fed in large quantity to cattle, swine and poultry so unless you are feeding grass fed, grain free animals or organic meats you are getting the GMOs in the back door]. Brown rice has its own problems at that grown in the SE US is high in arsenic due to years and years of treating cotton grops with arsenic insecticides. It is more susceptible than other crops because the wet growing conditions facilitate uptake.

Carbohydrates are needed for the extrusion process and to reduce cost.
They are not necessary for a dogs nutrition and are to a dog's detriment if in excess.
Dogs do not have salivary amylase, only pancreatic amylase.

Potatoes, particularly white, are no better than many grains as they have a high glycemic index and, if low quality culls, can have solanine (green) on them which is toxic. Sweet potatoes are better. 

The ingredients in dog food are ranked by weight but that can be misleading. Meat has much much more water than meat meals and may be lower in protein than the next on the list. 

You can look at the label and one food may be 50% meat meal, then 48% grain while the next is 60% meat meal and 25% grain. You can't tell by looking. Those are not real number, just an example of how different they can be. Also ingredients can be splt so they are lower in the list but are still high in the food.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't feed grain-free. My dogs do very well on California Natural Lamb and Rice so I have no reason to switch. They are healthy, good weight, shiny coats, no allergies, small/firm poops. I've tried a wide variety of other kibbles (some supposedly better) and always go back. I last tried Fromm because it is cheaper yet made in the USA but they all itched like crazy and their poop was horrid (HUGE and disgustingly stinky). They like the Cal Nat kibble and it's very easy for me to store large amounts and travel with. I occasionally supplement with raw venison, beef marrow bones, or chicken breast. They also get fish oil capsules and coconut oil though I'm not sure either have made any difference (but it doesn't hurt to add).


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I tried grain free (Earthborne lamb based) with my dogs, 1 gained weight even when I adjusted for the calories, 1 lost weight and I had to feed more, and the last 1 was the straw that made me go back to a grain based food Frank had severe diarrhea on it. 
After taking Frank to the vet several times and clearing any medical reason for the diarrhea, I noticed that all I had to do was add rice to his food and it stopped. 
I switched all 3 back to a good food with rice in it and all 3 are doing Great, Frank's poop has never been better.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I finally found a dog food that my dogs like and do well on. Why would I switch just because it says grain free?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

shepherdmom said:


> I finally found a dog food that my dogs like and do well on. Why would I switch just because it says grain free?


This exactly. I tried it, but I _haven't_ seen the much-touted benefits of grain-free. I'm glad you have, but let's try not to judge the one's that haven't.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

I do like the grain free kibbles and my dogs have done well on them in the past, but right now, the one they are on is causing really really really bad gas issues with them both. The stench could kill a donkey. 

Also there is the cost involved. For me, a bag of Orijen costs 100 euro. That translates to about $133. For ONE bag that's 13.5kg (29lb). That's a lot of money for me, especially with two dogs. I've never used Orijen because of that reason, but instead have used TOTW in the past (which I can't use right now because the calcium is too high for the puppy, and I'd prefer that both dogs eat the same kibble.) and Purizon (which has low calcium but is causing the gas issues).

TWO 15kg (33lb) bags of Lukullus is only 100 euro. 

I'm all for giving your dog the best and all, but sometimes I feel like I can get unbalanced in this regard and end up spending more on food and getting nice stuff for them than I do for myself and my family.

Which is why I'm looking to switch to something slightly cheaper but still good.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Franksmom said:


> I tried grain free (Earthborne lamb based) with my dogs, 1 gained weight even when I adjusted for the calories, 1 lost weight and I had to feed more, and the last 1 was the straw that made me go back to a grain based food Frank had severe diarrhea on it.
> After taking Frank to the vet several times and clearing any medical reason for the diarrhea, I noticed that all I had to do was add rice to his food and it stopped.
> I switched all 3 back to a good food with rice in it and all 3 are doing Great, Frank's poop has never been better.


This is another issue I'm having with the grainfree...

For some reason, Juno (who is a very very picky eater and skinny girl) can eat MOUNTAINS of Purizon and not gain a single ounce. I'd like her to gain a little weight because I've always found her to be a little too lean. 

She gets a 1lb Raw meal in the morning, but in the evening, she could easily pack away 3 full cups of kibble and a stuffed Kong if I let her. And she still isn't gaining anything. AND she acts hungry afterwards, which is unlike her. So I'm wondering if adding rice to her diet would help.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

There are some great grain-free foods, and there are some great grain inclusive foods. Just as there are some bad grain-free foods and there are some bad grain inclusive foods. In my opinion, it's all about the amount of protein that comes from meat and the quality of the ingredients.

I feed grain-free, and Jazz does great on it, but not because I think that grain-free is superior in any way to a good quality kibble that includes grains. Feed what works for your dog whether it includes grains or not. That your dog does well on the food you feed is the most important thing.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

I used to feed iams, and I switched to BB Wilderness Salmon. He did okay on iams until he stopped eating it. I wasn't exactly looking for grain free, but that's what i ended up with. He loves it, his poops are now good (smaller and firm) and his coat seems a tad softer.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

My dogs do super on Canidae and raw. The grain and grain free variety of the kibble made ZERO difference  I think it is overrated and people tend to imagine dramatic improvements one way or the other. Unless off course the dog has allergy issues or what not.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Honestly, the only reason I switched to Grain Free was to put a little weight on Finn. We were originally feeding Kibbles and Bits, but if he went even a small amount over the recommended amount, he would get severe diarrhea. After a lot of conversation between our vet and his breeder, we figured he was sensitive to either the sugar in the food or the dyes that made the food those pretty colors.

We switched to BB Wilderness purely out of chance. We bought a bag of BB and a bag of TOTW. He loved the BB and turned his nose up at the TOTW. He gained the recommended amount of weight and his stools are better, but if it weren't for the issue with the diarrhea, I'm sure we'd still have K&B in the house.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Packen said:


> My dogs do super on Canidae and raw. The grain and grain free variety of the kibble made ZERO difference  I think it is overrated and people tend to imagine dramatic improvements one way or the other. *Unless off course the dog has allergy issues or what not*.


I did see a huge difference when I put Juno on grain free and raw when she was a puppy, but that was because she was on Pedigree when I first got her, and she was severely allergic to it at the time. You are right, though...sometimes people can be overly swayed by the hype and be totally drawn into the placebo effect with this sort of thing. 

Right now, my decision is becoming more of a financial one. I would be leaving the dogs on Purizon if it weren't for the dreadful SBDs that last for hours after eating it and the fact that Juno seems to have eat gallons of it to keep her weight from dropping. It doesn't help that she easily tires of her food whether RAW or kibble. She's such a drama queen sometimes. 

Bowser will eat anything and everything. So I never have to worry about him getting bored with food like Juno does.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Oh yeah, maintaining proper weight is huge for my 2. Both lead very active lifestyles and need a high calorie diet just to maintain weight. Trick is to find something that works well for the dog and then stick to it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Packen said:


> My dogs do super on Canidae and raw. The grain and grain free variety of the kibble made ZERO difference  I think it is overrated and people tend to imagine dramatic improvements one way or the other. Unless off course the dog has allergy issues or what not.


I tend to agree. I think many of the "grain free's" are still so loaded with sugars from rice, potatoes, veges, beets, fruits, that it makes little difference.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Emoore said:


> This exactly. I tried it, but I _haven't_ seen the much-touted benefits of grain-free. I'm glad you have, but let's try not to judge the one's that haven't.



And WHERE have you been, Miss Emily? I've missed you!


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I don't fee grain free. I was going to switch, but why would I if the dogs are healthy, like the food, have a nice coat, and poop is good. They are doing well with what they eat and I doubt I'll change it. We are all comfortable


Exactly this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Grain-free kibble isn't needed for all dogs. Some do just fine with grains.

Right now I am feeding Nature's Domain which happens to be grain-free; I didn't buy it *because* it's grain-free, just think it's a great food (especially for the price). But I sometimes switch to Diamond Naturals which has rice and barley. My dogs have done great on both. I do try to avoid corn and wheat.

I feed raw also, but unfortunately I can't afford to go 100% raw. Raw is great for the cats, but my 11 year old GSD tends to drop weight when on raw, so she gets mostly kibble.

I didn't see a poll option for "both kinds of kibble and raw", so I didn't vote.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My vet objects to grain-free. I don't agree with the foods she recommends - Eukanuba and Science Diet. So we compromise a bit and I feed Ruki Innova and Nature's Variety Prarie. He is also eating Canidae. He is not a good eater, and doggiedad mentioned in another thread he buys small bags of food and switches it up. I started doing that, and ever since Ruki loves to eat. He seems excited to find out what he is getting, and hasn't had any digestive issues. 

I don't have anything against grain-free. My last dog ate Orijen and Nature's Variety Instinct.


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## SukiGirl (Aug 31, 2012)

Has anyone that feeds grain free had any issues with anal glands? Suki is doing very well on grain free in every other aspect; coat looks good, skin isn't dried out, ears stay clean and she likes the food...but because her stools are smaller we've had issues with full anal glands in the last few months. We've tried pumpkin, but after awhile she stopped eating the pumpkin. Any other ideas?


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> This exactly. I tried it, but I _haven't_ seen the much-touted benefits of grain-free. I'm glad you have, but let's try not to judge the one's that haven't.


Wait...wasn't she saying that she ISN'T on grain free? Because she found a food that her dogs do well on, and just because it "DOESN'T" say grain-free doesn't mean it isn't as good?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I vary Aiden's diet pretty frequently. He may eat grain free or not depending on what I buy that month. The cost of the grain free foods that I like to feed are pretty astronomical ($70 or so per 25-30lb bag). We may be switching to Fromm gold in the near future due to the cost of their grain free that he had been eating recently. 


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Wow! I'm kinda surprised so many here feed their dogs both kibble and raw. I thought I was the minority in that regard. Good to know! :thumbup:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I do feed grain free, although recently I tried Halo on Nature's Logic for a few months, which is not grain free - it has millet. Keefer has been on numerous different foods over the years, more of them with grain than without, but right now both of them are on Orijen. Halo was raised on LBP and has been on Adult since she was a year old, with a brief foray into the Nature's Logic and Earthborn Hollistics Primitive Natural. Keefer has been on Orijen 6 Fish for a long time now.

The overwhelming reason I switched to grain free was due to the food recalls several years ago - all of the ingredients sourced from China that were contaminated with melamine were grain products. After that I just didn't trust grains in pet foods. Thousands of pets got sick and died, and it just felt too risky for me, so I cut out the grains. 

With Keefer there has been a huge health difference. He's always been an itchy boy, and still is to some extent, but he's been so bad that several times he's rubbed the fur off his muzzle, leaving a bald or partially bald spot, and sometimes sores and scabs from rubbing the skin off. With grain free foods he's much better, although it wasn't until I put him on a fish based grain free food that he completely cleared up. He still sometimes rubs his face on stuff, but not out of control like it has been in the past. He would rub his face against the stucco on the outside of the house when he went out to potty, and in the house he'd do it on the heater intake - sharp metal! I did try Earthborn Holistics fish based kibble briefly, and the itching got worse and then improved again when I put him back on Orijen. Obviously since a food change has made such a big difference it has something to do with food allergies or intolerances, but I suspect he has some environmental thing going on too. 

With Halo, her stools were larger and softer on Nature's Logic. And on Earthborn Holistics her coat felt coarse and dry, although if I remember correctly her stool was okay. I don't think dogs NEED grains, but if your dog is doing fine on them I don't see a burning need to switch to grain free. For me, my dogs just do better on certain foods, so that's what I'll continue to use.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I feed a combination of grain free kibble (California Naturals or Evo) and home cooked. Breakfast and lunch are kibble (soaked in chicken stock), and dinner is cooked chicken and scrambled eggs from our own hens. I don't do Raw because I don't have the freezer space or the extra electricity to supply a second freezer, but I do admire those who do manage to feed it. I buy whole chickens, boil them, and then strip the meat and pressure can it in the broth so that way I can store large amounts of chicken without taking up lots of freezer space. And I always have extra broth which gets pressure canned as well, for soaking the kibble in.

I also give a daily multivitamin, just in case my home cooked meal is missing any key nutrients.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I feed Orijen and supplement with raw days three times per week.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Total raw here, but my dogs clean the birdroom floor and eat pellets/seeds from the parrots. They'll also go under the outdoor feeder. I see the evidence when I do poop patrol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog food is a racket. 

Mostly it is marketing. And the marketing is basically to villify whatever is in the foods that your food does not have in it. Grain-free, dogs in the wilderness wouldn't eat grains, well shucky darns it has peas and potatoes, and dogs in the wilderness would probably not eat those either. 

Dogs have been eating grains for thousands of years, ever since they have clung to the garbage heaps of humans and became domesticated, humans have fed them whatever leftover and the least desirable of whatever they had. The dogs of my childhood ate grains and lived for 14 or 15 years. 

If things were different, maybe I would raise chickens and rabbits, a beef critter and sheep to feed my dogs. But I just don't think it is even that much better to go raw, unless you have a stellar source for your meat. I mean the steers and the chickens are eating that GMO corn. The dogs are getting it anyhow. And if you don't have that strictly watched, there will be antibiotics and hormones all through that meat too. 

I have tried Wellness Core, Solid Gold Barking at the Moon, Prarie Raw Instict, and Taste of the Wild. Some my dogs have tolerated with no negative effects. TOTW I actually packed up and sent to the shelter. My dogs did terrible on that. 

Now my dogs do awesome on a mid-range kibble with good ingredients, including grains. All my dogs do well on the food. I am getting better poops than I ever got, including the grain free poop. My dogs have pretty much gained the weight I wanted them to gain after a bad episode with some 5 star food, and a rather lengthy trial of food with corn in it that gave good results initially, but then not so good. 

Occasionally I will give them raw chicken. But it is mostly just an occasional treat. 

All the dog food companies are out there with one goal in mind, and that is to make money. Some put a common name on their food and people buy the name thought the ingredients stink. Some fill the bags with the greatest of ingredients, and charge and arm and a leg for them, and chances are just as good that they are buying very low-grade ingredients. Yes it is Salmon, salmon that is totally out of date and not fit for human consumption -- how would we know? 

For $133 a bag, I could feed totally raw. I would definitely go that route if it came down to it. I have heard a lot of people not completely satisfied with that food anyhow.


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## PXDesign (Oct 17, 2011)

Selzer — which kibble did you end up using for your dogs?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PXDesign said:


> Selzer — which kibble did you end up using for your dogs?


Diamond Naturals Adult Chicken and Rice and Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, 50/50, which is about 29/20 protein to fat, and around 420kcal/cup. It has no listed glutens, so they aren't dumping gluten in there to spike the protein levels artificially. The dogs have been on it for a little more than a year and they are all doing really good. 
And it doesn't break the bank.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I was feeding non-grain feed kibble before (Fromm Gold LBP + Blue Buffalo LBP) but recently switched over to NutriLife Gold grain free, and he is finally doing well on a food. I don't feel like I HAVE to feed grain free, I just feed him whatever kibble he does well on.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I picked Orijen while I was researching dog food, and have kept Puppy on it since she came home at 4 months. She does not smell at all, has great coat, and small firm poops.

I'm not against grained foods. In fact, I think some of her treats I feed her have grains in them. I just picked a food and stuck with it.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I feed kibble with grain. I would love to go grain free, occasionally do to switch it up, but it all comes down to what he does best on. I have tried a LOT of foods so far in the 4-5 star ratings because I feel better about it but keep going back because he has issues with dander. And when I say issues I mean the wall next to his crate has a coating of dander on it. He also has issues keeping weight on. So I stick to the food that gives him a shiny-dander-free coat, keeps his weight on without having to feed 6 cups a day, no gas, less poo.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

selzer said:


> Diamond Naturals Adult Chicken and Rice and Diamond Naturals *Extreme Athlete*, 50/50, which is about 29/20 protein to fat, and around 420kcal/cup. It has no listed glutens, so they aren't dumping gluten in there to spike the protein levels artificially. The dogs have been on it for a little more than a year and they are all doing really good.
> And it doesn't break the bank.


:thumbup: This is what Jackson eats too. I have issues with Diamond in general, but it seems to be the only one that works for both him and my wallet.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Three of our dogs did fine on high quality food with rice in it but . . .Pele has a problem with gas. I'm talking the kind of problem that drives you out of a room. And she is a very sensitive old girl and it got to the point that, when someone said "PHEW!" she would droop and leave the room (even if it wasn't her). So we switched to grain free and our poor gaseous greyhound/husky/lab cross can once again curl up next to her sister without feeling unwelcome, lol.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> This exactly. I tried it, but I _haven't_ seen the much-touted benefits of grain-free. I'm glad you have, but let's try not to judge the one's that haven't.


This also.
"for whatever reason", how about these reasons? 
"Grain free" is a sales tool? Simply the latest fad??
How about, my dogs look and feel awesome on the food they eat?
And, I'm not one to jump on bandwagons? Those are but a few reasons 
Your poll is way too limited, as well, for me to answer.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know, I have also always hydrated my kibble before feeding it. I figure it gives the enzymes added to the food a little time, takes care of any swelling issues (some do and some don't), slows down the dog and, in general has better results...also keeps the dog hydrated. I figure a natural diet (which is my goal but can't do right now) is very high in moisture and dry biscuit is even less natural.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

I switched mine to Blue Buffalo LBP from Royal Canin...she liked it at first but now losing interest.. I must say the dog looks great! Poop is excellent, shiny coat and shedding reduced tremendously. Her coat actually feels oily... The only problem is I wish she was excited about eating it..I'm in process of finding her another quality kibble,it's so complicated !!!


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I feed Orijen, not because it is grain-free, but, because I feel it contains the cleanest ingredient's and the most meat. It also, contains the most Glucosamine and by a large margin, compared to any of the good food's made. I like rice and I really like brown whole rice. It seems all the grained dog foods contain a lot of other grain crap, crap, such as barley, pearled barley, oats, oat bran, wheat, sorghum, brewers rice, rice flour, soybean and other low grain crap.
I also like seeing whole meats, I know they are calculated wet compared to meals, which are dry, but meals are mostly bone. I have been researching meals for over a year now and I am surprised on how little meat is contained in "any" chicken meal or any named meals. Even the chicken meal used by the very best dog food companies, contain mostly bone and skin.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Diamond Naturals Adult Chicken and Rice and Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, 50/50, which is about 29/20 protein to fat, and around 420kcal/cup. It has no listed glutens, so they aren't dumping gluten in there to spike the protein levels artificially. The dogs have been on it for a little more than a year and they are all doing really good.
> And it doesn't break the bank.


This is what I've fed to my dogs when they needed to gain weight. I think it really is an excellent kibble. I wouldn't recommend it for the average pet dog, as you only have to feed 2/3 as much as most kibbles; much more than that and your pet can get FAT. But it's fantastic for working dogs, sport dogs, or any dog that needs to put on weight.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> This also.
> "for whatever reason", how about these reasons?
> "Grain free" is a sales tool? Simply the latest fad??
> How about, my dogs look and feel awesome on the food they eat?
> ...





Emoore said:


> This exactly. I tried it, but I _haven't_ seen the much-touted benefits of grain-free. I'm glad you have, but let's try not to judge the one's that haven't.


Ah here! Relax! I wasn't havin a go at anyone here. I wanted to get some opinions because I'm looking to CHANGE from grain free to non grain free. 

And I'm sorry my poll is way to limited. There was an option for those who feed GF and one who doesn't. There was an option for those who chose to do both RAW and kibble (and I meant that in a general sense - ie: any kibble, though I should have probably specified that.) And then there as an option for RAW. 

Is there another option you reckon I should've added?


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I feed Orijen, not because it is grain-free, but, because I feel it contains the cleanest ingredient's and the most meat. It also, contains the most Glucosamine and by a large margin, compared to any of the good food's made. I like rice and I really like brown whole rice. It seems all the grained dog foods contain a lot of other grain crap, crap, such as barley, pearled barley, oats, oat bran, wheat, sorghum, brewers rice, rice flour, soybean and other low grain crap.
> I also like seeing whole meats, I know they are calculated wet compared to meals, which are dry, but meals are mostly bone. I have been researching meals for over a year now and I am surprised on how little meat is contained in "any" chicken meal or any named meals. *Even the chicken meal used by the very best dog food companies, contain mostly bone and skin.*


Really? That's interesting...I was always under the impression that meals were supposed to be higher in protein than whole meats. I didn't know they were so full of bone.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You can have some insight into the amount of bone in a meal by looking at the overall Calcium and Phosphorus content of the food. 

Many folks like Orijen but there are plenty of other foods that are not "crap". If I am feeding a food with meat meal and no other significant source of proteins (such as peas, beans, lentils) then I am going to assume most of it came from the meat in the meal.

Ken made the best point! Use what works for your own dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am now mixing grain frees (and trying to do like Ken said in looking at ingredients) with grain foods. I have four dogs who are 9 and up and I feel like they do better on the combo. Who knows, but that's my reason!


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## jewels04 (Jul 20, 2012)

We feed grain free but not because we want to we feed it because Jerry requires it. Grain free with no chicken. I am uncomfortable with feeding a puppy grain free because of growth issues but when he was feed food with grains or chicken and was sick and not gaining weight and just not seeming to thrive as his brothers did I was worried. Since going grain free he has gained weight appropriately, his growth is steady and slow as it should be, and he is doing much better. He was failing to thrive until being put on grain free foods.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I think that is, and should be, the point! Feed your dog what he does best on. 

The whole thing about too much calcium for puppies and keeping the ratios of Ca to P in check is good advice, but when it comes to ingredients, the best food in the world is the worst food if your dog doesn't do well on it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Rua said:


> Really? That's interesting...I was always under the impression that meals were supposed to be higher in protein than whole meats. I didn't know they were so full of bone.


Tony's info is incorrect. Meat (specified) meals is muscle meat.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Meal is not full of bone. Unless of course you are thinking about bone meal. Meal is meat that has had the moisture removed. At least it was when I studied.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I feed only raw, but if i had to feed kibble, i'd probably end up not feeding grain free, just based on cost alone. Some of the prices of those foods are crazy, $60-$70 for under 30lbs.

I get 80lbs of raw poutry for under $40 at the distributor I go to.


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

I feed grain free........ for us the difference I've noticed since switching to the grain free is a LOT LESS shedding from the GSD and a LOT LESS gas from the boxer. We use the Kirkland Grain Free.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Tony's info is incorrect. Meat (specified) meals is muscle meat.





Doc said:


> Meal is not full of bone. Unless of course you are thinking about bone meal. Meal is meat that has had the moisture removed. At least it was when I studied.


Yeah, that's what I thought it was. Maybe Tony was thinking of meat by-products which are used a lot in different dog foods?



ShatteringGlass said:


> I feed only raw, but if i had to feed kibble, i'd probably end up not feeding grain free, just based on cost alone. Some of the prices of those foods are crazy, $60-$70 for under 30lbs.
> 
> I get 80lbs of raw poutry for under $40 at the distributor I go to.


Lucky you! I wish I could get it that cheap. Right now, it would cost me about €150 for 80lbs of raw poultry. 

In the end, I decided against the Lukullus (the food I was considering when I began this thread), solely because it has alfalfa in it. And from what I understand Alfalfa is linked to bloat in dogs.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Happy is on grain free - Wellness core reduced fat. 
The pup is on Fromm Gold. I do supplement a bit. In the morning they get some coconut oil with their kibble, and at night they get Kirkland cuts in gravy and the puppy gets a squirt of salmon oil. Once a week they do get raw bones. 
They're both doing great with what they are on right now.


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## Finnick<3 (Oct 29, 2012)

I change foods each 30ish pound bag and feed both grain inclusive and grain free in my rotation.

Finn, my 7 month old GSD, does best on Orijen. I see a difference in his coat and stamina. However, with Jasmine my 8 year old rottie, Orijen changes nothing.


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## Maya (Dec 21, 2011)

I am feeding grain free Back to Basics and Presidents Choice Nutrition first puppy canned grain free to both my dogs now. The older chow was always overweight and had tummy issues until I made the switch. She has never looked better at 14 years of age. The shepherd with EPI has to have grain free and is a whopping 87 pounds of bounding good health. Dogs do not have sufficient pancreatic enzymes to digest the corn and wheat fillers they add to dog foods and this can cause a host of digestive issues as well as obesity problems.


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

I have probably tried every grain free kibble out there because I thought it would be better. 3 years of dealing with a variety of intestinal issues I read on this forum of success with California Natural. I switched and the results were amaziing. No more grain free kibble for us !I guess that is why there are so many types of kibble out there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some helpful resources

Pet Food Labels - General

How to Avoid Choosing Dog Food with Inferior Meat Content

I actually think meat meals can have bone in them and that is why looking at the ash as well as calcium is important because that gives you some insight into how MUCH bone-is added. Though vegetable matter can also contribute to both ash and calcium.

The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal


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