# Apartment Complex is giving me a rough time about GSD...



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

Hey everyone! First of all I'm new here and this is my first "real" thread, thanks for having me. Anyway, I'm picking up a new addition to my family mid-march, I've already paid my pet deposit, paid for the dog, and have a TON of puppy stuff awaiting her... and now my apartment complex has decided to put out an "Aggressive Breed" list, which, of course, a GSD is listed on. One of the people in the office (shhhh) suggested I simply say she's something else, because we haven't filled out the paper work, or had a "meet and greet" with the dog since she's obviously not old enough to leave her parents yet. However, this makes me feel a little dishonest, and i'm not sure what the right course of action to take in this situation is. The person that suggested just saying she's something else said that since she's completely black, she could easily pass for an Australian Kelpie or Shiloh shepherd mix, and I'm OK with saying that she is, but can any of you imagine that there will be any repercussion down the line for doing this? I'm a responsible pet owner, and trying to do things by the book, but boy are canine stereotypes making this hard. Thanks for your opinions!


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

If the proper paperwork was already signed and dated and afterwards there was "Aggressive Breed" list that was put into play I would talk to them about a possible grandfather clause. 

They're already given you permission to get the dog and wouldn't it be a breach of contract to revoke it?

I only owned a cocker spaniel when I rented a apartment so I have no experience dealing with a GSD in a apartment setting with rules


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wouldn't lie. If you lie...someone finds out...they could pretty much kick you out without notice. Then where would you go?

Are you sure the apartment just put one of these out? Most places have them in place for a long time and they are based on the insurance company that the complex has. This is probably the toughest thing when it comes to owning a GSD and renting. Trust me...you won't be able to pass your dog off as anything but a German Shepherd to anyone that knows anything about dogs. I'm really surprised someone in the office gave you that advice, as the next time someone decides to get a GSD or anything else on that list what are they going to do? Tell that person no and then watch them report you for having a GSD...

If you can break your lease and move I suggest doing that. This can work for a little while but probably won't end very well.


----------



## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Blacks are easy to get away with. Say it's a lab mix.


----------



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

Shade said:


> If the proper paperwork was already signed and dated and afterwards there was "Aggressive Breed" list that was put into play I would talk to them about a possible grandfather clause.
> 
> They're already given you permission to get the dog and wouldn't it be a breach of contract to revoke it?
> 
> I only owned a cocker spaniel when I rented a apartment so I have no experience dealing with a GSD in a apartment setting with rules


It would be wonderful if that was the case, but all I've done is pay the pet security deposit. The pet addendum ( basically their pet owner contract) can't be signed until they've "met" the puppy. 

I'll do what I have to do in the end, but I'll be heartbroken if I can't bring this little gal home.


----------



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I wouldn't lie. If you lie...someone finds out...they could pretty much kick you out without notice. Then where would you go?
> 
> Are you sure the apartment just put one of these out? Most places have them in place for a long time and they are based on the insurance company that the complex has. This is probably the toughest thing when it comes to owning a GSD and renting. Trust me...you won't be able to pass your dog off as anything but a German Shepherd to anyone that knows anything about dogs. I'm really surprised someone in the office gave you that advice, as the next time someone decides to get a GSD or anything else on that list what are they going to do? Tell that person no and then watch them report you for having a GSD...
> 
> If you can break your lease and move I suggest doing that. This can work for a little while but probably won't end very well.


It's a brand new apartment complex, (opened in August) and they just switched management companies at the beginning of the fiscal year, so they're coming out with a ton of new rules and regulations...


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

irickchad said:


> It would be wonderful if that was the case, but all I've done is pay the pet security deposit. The pet addendum ( basically their pet owner contract) can't be signed until they've "met" the puppy.
> 
> I'll do what I have to do in the end, but I'll be heartbroken if I can't bring this little gal home.


Dang 

Honestly, I wouldn't lie. Every time I'd take the dog out of the apartment I would be looking around and worried someone would recognize it. Triple check everything with the office staff, if there's no loopholes I would either move to a more pet friendly place or let go of this puppy and choose something else

If you do find a loophole make sure it's in writing and keep it handy in the apartment in case anyone makes a fuss


----------



## JohnD (May 1, 2012)

Don't hide and don't lie...Haha. If you lie they could terminate your lease and you could lose a lot.

You are better off talking to the Apt House Manager and see if they can give you a exception in writing....

Sadly Most insurance companies have lists of dogs they won't insure. Or don't wish to insure. Either way the owners of your Apt building may not want to take the risk.

Good luck...But tell the truth!!


----------



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

I totally understand that if I lie I could lose a lot, and maybe if I'm patient with them and let them meet her they'll come to let me have her. I'm a law abiding citizen and completely understand why things such as this are in place, however, in my lease it pretty much says that they're not responsible for anything from fires to vehicle vandalism, so I don't know why they'd be responsible for dogs on their property and exclude certain ones. Regardless, I'm just hoping it all works out for the best. I find it asinine that there's an "Aggressive Breed" list anyhow. If anything, there should be a "not fit to raise a puppy" list, ha.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I mean if you can get something in writing its almost bulletproof...but since you didn't have the dog before its hard to "grandfather" something in you don't have. Talk to them and see what they can do...but its usually an insurance thing and not a management company thing.

I really suggest not lying and if they allow you to have her, make sure its in writing. You just don't know who will get pissed off at you or them and then decide to rat you out.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

irickchad said:


> I totally understand that if I lie I could lose a lot, and maybe if I'm patient with them and let them meet her they'll come to let me have her. I'm a law abiding citizen and completely understand why things such as this are in place, however, in my lease it pretty much says that they're not responsible for anything from fires to vehicle vandalism, so I don't know why they'd be responsible for dogs on their property and exclude certain ones. Regardless, I'm just hoping it all works out for the best. I find it asinine that there's an "Aggressive Breed" list anyhow. If anything, there should be a "not fit to raise a puppy" list, ha.


They aren't responsible for those things because they told you and then legally you can't sue them if anything like that happens. When it comes to dogs (I've asked my apartment complex this) if your dog gets out, and bites someone on their grounds/property...they can get sued (and most likely would because they have more money than the average citizen).

It has nothing to do with meeting people or showing them you have a good dog, its the insurance company saying no and not wanting the risk of having ONE bad dog that does something stupid.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

irickchad said:


> in my lease it pretty much says that they're not responsible for anything from fires to vehicle vandalism, so I don't know why they'd be responsible for dogs on their property and exclude certain ones.


It could be mandated by their insurance provider. If they are not liable, are you? Do you have a policy to cover the liability? If so I would let them know and maybe that would help.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It has nothing to do with meeting people or showing them you have a good dog, its the insurance company saying no and not wanting the risk of having ONE bad dog that does something stupid.


Right, large corporations can't make exceptions lightly, they're forced to look at everyone and toss them together in the same pot. 

My point of breach of contract was in the case the paperwork approving the dog had already been signed off on


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

We recently faced this problem. Its not the apartment complex rules but their insurance company. The paperwork from the Vet will have the full breed on it so calling her something els might not work.

I also have a prescription for an ESA animal and that still does not have any privilege in an apartment, but it did have more options for smaller homes, condos, and duplex type places. 

It would be sad if you got the dog and received the notice to relocate or get rid of the dog =/ I know many people that faced this because of the aggressive breed and there was nothing they could do. It's insurance stuff =/


----------



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, I spoke with the prop. manager via phone, and his basic response was " It's an insurance thing, but that's why we have the meet and greet. If your dog is social and well behaved, then it's obviously not going to be a problem. We base our decisions on the dog and the owner more than our breed list. Once a dog is approved, especially puppies, they stay approved until we have reason to believe they shouldn't be. However anything the dog does on our property is up to the owner to take care of, and that's why we have the pet addendum" Which is pretty awesome, so hopefully all works out when the time comes. He also added that they're not vets, and they can't require a DNA test, because they'd have to pay for it, so they have to take people's word or a vet's letter stating what kind of dog they have.


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

irickchad said:


> Well, I spoke with the prop. manager via phone, and his basic response was " It's an insurance thing, but that's why we have the meet and greet. If your dog is social and well behaved, then it's obviously not going to be a problem. We base our decisions on the dog and the owner more than our breed list. Once a dog is approved, especially puppies, they stay approved until we have reason to believe they shouldn't be. However anything the dog does on our property is up to the owner to take care of, and that's why we have the pet addendum" Which is pretty awesome, so hopefully all works out when the time comes. He also added that they're not vets, and they can't require a DNA test, because they'd have to pay for it, so they have to take people's word or a vet's letter stating what kind of dog they have.


Ok - so they are open to it for sure then.

When we rented there was a no "big dog policy", but both my dogs had their CGN (husky mix and pitbull) and were great dogs - so the owner agreed to the meet and greet.

Lab licked her hand and layed down at her feet, pitty jumped in her lap and snuggled right in. Both were approved however we did sign a paper saying we would accept all liability for having them on the property.

What I would do make sure you have your ducks in a row BEFORE puppy comes. Call the property manager again - tell them you have paid for the dog before the letter went out, but are willing to work with them to get the dog approved. Maybe a meet and greet with the expectation you will get the CGN certification by 1 year post meet and greet?

You can even provide them with the pamphlet that explains what exercises the dog will need to complete to pass, and what exactly the CGN means.

*I understand the CGN is not the end all be all of whether or not a dog is well behaved. But it is a structured test that even a property manager can look at and understand.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

irickchad said:


> Well, I spoke with the prop. manager via phone, and his basic response was " It's an insurance thing, but that's why we have the meet and greet. If your dog is social and well behaved, then it's obviously not going to be a problem. We base our decisions on the dog and the owner more than our breed list. Once a dog is approved, especially puppies, they stay approved until we have reason to believe they shouldn't be. However anything the dog does on our property is up to the owner to take care of, and that's why we have the pet addendum" Which is pretty awesome, so hopefully all works out when the time comes. He also added that they're not vets, and they can't require a DNA test, because they'd have to pay for it, so they have to take people's word or a vet's letter stating what kind of dog they have.


Sounds good...but the part about "approved until we have reason to believe they shouldn't be" scares me. The first sign of someone complaining about a bark being too loud? The first time someone comes and tells them your dog got too rough with their dog?

Very very very wishy washy policy they have. That's why I like black/white set in stone policies with no subjectivity....even when they make life harder for me. They're pretty much saying that any time they see fit they can change their policy and rule your dog unapproved and throw you out or ask you to get rid of your dog.

My apartment complex has pits, dobermans, rots, and akitas on their banned list. So we don't have any of those breeds in our complex. Many around us include GSDs (why I live where I live). I wouldn't try to argue with them or get my dog accepted because they would probably be able to change their mind at any time for any reason.

Anyways...I'm happy for you and your news. I'd really look into what would happen though if they do rule your dog unapproved. How long would they give you to move out/find a new place?

We had a woman who had a misbehaving boxer. She was outside with him on her porch and the maintenance guy was walking by...the dog went after the guy and since the tie out was too long almost got to him. They gave her a day to get rid of the dog or move out. Luckily her parents took him for the month until she found a place to live. (extreme situation but still)


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I agree with the people who say don't lie. It could have negative consequences in the long run if it can be used to terminate, or even accelerate the terms of your lease.

It is a liability problem from their perspective. Most likely their insurer won't cover the restricted breeds, and they were advised to implement the new policy.

You can try offering to carry your own personal liability policy and sign an indemnification with the complex. 

I have two GSDs and a Weimaraner and Allstate sold me $100,000 personal liability policy that covers all three dogs for less than $12/month.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's not about your own insurance...its about the fact that if YOUR dog bites someone on THEIR property, THEY can be held liable. You personally cannot waive their liability because the person who gets bit would be doing the suing...and you always sue the people with the bigger check book which in this case is the apartment complex. I also have renters insurance which covers my dog doing something...but its just to cover MY liability and not the complex's. This is why they usually don't allow these breeds...the insurance company doesn't want the risk.


----------



## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

Seems to be going ok for the time being. I got a call from another of the property managers who basically proclaimed that no matter what, they want me to be happy, and want me to continue living there. It was a woman this time, and she said that "basically" what the vet papers say, is what they have to go by, and that I could take that how I wanted.... so in short, I think she was saying... get my vet to say it's a lab mix, and I have a lab mix... get my vet to say it's a GSD... and it's a GSD... so on, so forth, etc. etc.


----------



## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

DO NOT GO BY WORD OF MOUTH. GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING.

Sorry for the caps, but this might come back to bite you. Probably not, but if there's a complaint or an incident, you could be left out in the cold, or it could be used as an excuse to evict you if things ever change.

It sounds like you already have in writing (with the new management company) that GSDs are not allowed. Your complex managers are like, "Stay with us, it's NBD as long as the pup is friendly!" Awesome! If they mean it, they should be willing to sign and date (in front of witnesses) a simple statement to the effect that you are allowed to have that particular dog (be sure to note identifying characteristics including registered name, breed, and coloring so there is no question which dog you mean). It shouldn't be a problem, and if it is, then you need to wonder why. Everything should be spelled out in writing when it comes to leases. Oral contracts are legally binding but also exceptionally hard to prove in court, and unscrupulous landlords/managers know this.

If they refuse, then it is probably a situation where the individual managers want to keep you (sometimes they get commission, so this does happen), but the actual property management company isn't cool with it...which can lead to major problems if management changes, the property is sold, etc.

Otherwise, you probably don't have many rights here. You probably won't qualify for a grandfather clause since you don't have the dog yet (and even there, they could theoretically just not renew your lease, although in the areas I know they probably couldn't evict you if they bought a property where you were living with a breed they didn't want), although that may apply if you had an oral agreement with the previous owners...but still you'd have to worry about your lease being up, and virtually everywhere (in the US at least) they have to give at least 30 days' notice, and legal eviction can drag on far longer than that...but it will also seriously hurt your credit and ability to find another rental in the future, so don't take this as advocating that...just a "worst case scenario" type of thing if it comes to that or dumping your dog in the shelter!

Don't lie. For one thing, usually mixes count in insurance policies so even claiming a "GSD mix" likely won't help, and for another, all it would take is the AKC papers or vet records listing the dog as a GSD to cause a serious problem. You could be evicted for this, and your records could be requested as a part of any legal proceedings. It isn't like this is criminal, but you could take a substantial financial and credit hit should things go bad, as well as being faced with the decision of "move or get rid of the dog," which may come at a time when moving is financially painful. Far better to make your own decisions here and be honest.

edit: Also, I am most definitely not a lawyer, just have been on both sides of the landlord/tenant relationship in 3 states, and this is my experience. A lot will vary based on local laws but IMO it isn't something to mess around with as a tenant, because while you do have definite rights, the power is still with the landlord in terms of eviction and forcing you to either move or get rid of your dog, hurting your credit, etc. So please just take my words as a jumping off point. But seriously, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING NO MATTER WHAT.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

look into the grandfather clause. if that doesn't happen
work out a deal with them where they give you enough
time to move.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

irickchad said:


> Seems to be going ok for the time being. I got a call from another of the property managers who basically proclaimed that no matter what, they want me to be happy, and want me to continue living there. It was a woman this time, and she said that "basically" what the vet papers say, is what they have to go by, and that I could take that how I wanted.... so in short, I think she was saying... get my vet to say it's a lab mix, and I have a lab mix... get my vet to say it's a GSD... and it's a GSD... so on, so forth, etc. etc.


Find a vet first, they are liable when they do this since they get breeders paperwork and first shots. I know many people that tried with every vet in this area and no go from any of them. =(


----------



## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Neko said:


> Find a vet first, they are liable when they do this since they get breeders paperwork and first shots. I know many people that tried with every vet in this area and no go from any of them. =(


This might work if you don't have the dog registered, but if you're getting an AKC registered pup, don't even try this. I mean, maybe you could pull it off, but all it takes is one or two experts saying, "that is clearly a GSD," and a request for registration records (not sure about GSD records, but I know in many horse records, it is very easy to track the owner-of-record and specific dogs by just paying a nominal fee too...) and you're screwed. And if you lie to the court, you are getting into criminal charges...

And even if you can find one vet to label it as a Lab mix, what happens if it bites someone and the expert witnesses all say it is clearly a GSD? These consequences are unlikely, but it is really irresponsible to take on the risk IMO.


----------

