# Time to call it quits?



## Josh's mom (Oct 30, 2010)

So, how do you know when your working dog prospect just isn't going to make it? 

We got Josh when he was 8 weeks old, he has working dogs on his fathers side, so we were hoping. He's got good food drive, tug and prey drive, he seems to have developed a case of nerves lately. My husband went to a scent training seminar with him a couple of week-ends ago and he was so discouraged, Josh was the most nervy dog there. He just turned 1, should you know by now who's going to make and who won't? He still has great focus and he has tracked with my husband up to 600 yards. Can you build nerve or is it all just hopeless. 

I'm wondering too if this isn't a temporary thing, I've read about a fear period that comes sometime about now. Also we've had some change in our family recently, we adopted a female GSD, we didn't plan on doing it now, she was in a bad situation (was scheduled to be PTS the day she was pulled), we fostered her for a week for the rescue and she got along with Josh so well we decided to keep her. She is spayed and a little younger than Josh, not sure what effect that would have on his nerve though. 

Truthfully my husband will be disappointed if he doesn't get to be a K9 officer but not enough to give Josh up, we've had him since the beginning and we'll be keeping him till the end. Same with Jenna, she's here to stay.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Afraid that you cannot build nerve and simple changes should really not impact the nerve base (like bringing in a new dog). If he was formerly bold and absolutely nothing rattled him, I would take him to a vet make sure there are no issues like vision -hearing - thyroid etc.

If he was always a bit on the spooky side (startled easily, had to be made comfortable with new things, approached with a bit of timidity and not boldness), you can't fix that. You can do a lot of socializing and make him comfortable around things that bother him as a pet, but in work (police, detection, SAR, etc) the strange and unexpected IS the norm and you can't train for that.

I believe most departments buy older dogs (under 2) so that all of the selection criteria are met. Even I, as a SAR handler, am looking at prospects over 6 months because puppies are such a gamble.


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## Josh's mom (Oct 30, 2010)

Thanks for your reply Nancy! See this is why we're confused, he hasn't been nervy before. He's not charging things barking and lunging at every new thing but he does approach things with confidence. Hubby took him to a golf course not long ago (first time there) and he was totally unaffected, with the noise, clubs being raised and coming down really fast, golf carts whizzing around him, he totally didn't care. They went to the seminar and they wanted him to get up on a table and he was shaking, not sure if it's something about being indoors, was he just having a bad day? Who knows. Ron has permission to go into some new buildings at our church, he's going to take him on Friday and see if it's an ongoing thing. 

Our new dog Jenna may have some working potential as well, she was surrendered because she "got too big". She had her AKC papers with her, we filed them and got her pedigree, on her mother's side she has generations of Czech and DDR dogs, apparently her other owner wanted a docile little house shepherd. She has a LOT of prey and ball drive and she loves her food. She approaches things with confidence as well, but she is leash reactive to other dogs, we're working on that now.

Not sure where to go from here, I think the whole K9 officer role is changing as well. We don't need a bite dog (the dept already has 3 neurotic mals that do that) we wanted a tracking/narcotics dog that can work in the schools.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would get him to a vet first. Check his thyroid. Nerve issues will still show up in the schools because those slick very shiny floors can be really give a number to some dogs--it is hard on them visually.

Now this is where I would drop off and you listen to Renee and David. They are LE and they both work drug dogs (as well as other things LE do). I am a SAR handler and it is not my bailiwyck (we just need solid nerve too)


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

If he was fine before, then I would give him a few months. Sometimes around 10-12 months, young dogs will go through some funky stages--barking at trashcans, alerting at ceiling fans, etc. I've had dogs who do this and then are totally over it a month or two later.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

should you know by now who's going to make and who won't? He still has great focus and he has tracked with my husband up to 600 yards. Can you build nerve or is it all just hopeless. 

*****************************

I am going to be blunt. The dog is a washout. Dear, I have seen this for well over 20 years. If he wants a dog for police work,he needs to buy a dog with the drive and temperament for it. wasting food,time and money on a dog that will never make it. The dog folded up at the seminar because he was in a strange environment. That is where we evaluate dogs for police work. Test them everywhere. Also, the dog needs over the top retrieve/hunt drive for scent work. I mean the dog has to be willing to search all day for a ball thrown and/hidden where the dog cannot see it and not be distracted by anything. period. I can explain how to test for that. It is very difficult to find dogs for police work. 
where are you in Texas? You really need to have a police k9 trainer evaluate the dogs before he wastes any more time.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I guess I don't understand how the dept is allowing him to go out and buy his own dogs as puppies to try to make into police dept dogs? Usually depts have contacts they use and are getting young adults for this??


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am certain there is a lot of variation. I DO know police officers who brought their own personal dog into the program and are working them as K9s. These are not people I know on the internet, but actual people I know face to face...

Just saying that not all departments have the resources to buy proper prospects or the creativity to scrounge for them using other means.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Yes there are those who purchase their own dogs. I formed the k9 unit for the third largest sheriff's dept in Texas over 20 years ago and we bought our own dogs, they still do. We wanted to own our own even though the agency has plenty funding. However we purchased the same quality. A full time police service dog must have the proper drive and temperament to be a proficient addition to the agency or they are better off without one
Also we do not buy pups. We buy young adults whose drive and temperament can be thoroughly evaluated as well as hips.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We have been screening our team prospects using, in part, the FEMA screening test available on Disaster Dog Traininghttp://www.disasterdog.org. Those of us on 2nd and 3rd dogs usually wind up just going with a suitable young adult (which costs more than a puppy but in the scope of things is worth it.....)

It is a link on the right sidebar. Now that is for *SAR* work *NOT* police work so I am sure there is more that needs to be added there but it does have tests for prey and hunt drive and nerve strength - but not for fight drive.

With young puppies most of what we recommend is extensive socialization, maybe some tracking, until they get old enough to better evaluate.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well how to say it -- you probably have two pets.

The dog has demonstrated, and who knows how many other times that went unnoticed because you weren't watching, that the nerve base is not there. A tracking seminar should be no more worrisome than a walk in a park , and a golf course is "boring" where most people go to sooth their frayed nerves , another walk in the park. 
There really isn't a lot of pressure for the dog to contend with.
There should not have been ANY nervy dogs at the seminar , not for k9 potentials .

have a look at this blog showing Blast (ready for his urban tracking ) and young Elle/Kira only 8 months old Birch-Bark Hill

some of the prep work Birch-Bark Hill: 7/31/11 - 8/7/11

hide games Birch-Bark Hill: 6/26/11 - 7/3/11

showing the dog on a school bus with kids, and on moving objects in the hardware , still with the burning desire to search Birch-Bark Hill: 8/7/11 - 8/14/11

Charging and lunging are not indicators of confidence , often the opposite 

There is a great deal that goes in to the selection of a potential service dog.

There is a great deal that goes in to the raising of a potential service dog.

I don't know where you got your puppy from or what the lines are , and it really does not matter , as only the dog that you have matters for the evaluation. 

I assume the breeder has no prior experience in having produced or having selected a young dog suitable for service.

That the pup had some working dogs on his fathers side means little. I might look at the pedigree and see none. I might look at the pedigree and see anonymous dogs close up followed by some dogs with SchH (1,2,or 3) which even german show lines have.
SchH titles unfortunately are not a guarantee for much, anymore, not when people practice for the longest time for a CGC (not sch h related) or the BH, the most minimal basic temperament tests which should be done improtu. Not when dogs that pass BH and go to trial and get titles break the down stay to attack another dog while in trial and not when dogs having those qualifications are out of control and take bad bites in totally unwarranted situations such as in a parking lot , innocent person. 

There is a great deal in raising that pup which goes beyond a niz pup for the home. 

Life is not a pampered pet with multiple handlers .
You have to provide opportunities that throw the pup into a wide variety of environments and situations . NOT to condition the dog . To observe the dog. To find the flaws. You are always looking for the achilles heels , the weak points and when you find them you reject the dog and reconsider the rest of his life. The dog has to have the wherewithall even as a young dog to go forward with confidence or if , due to age, that "moment" have an almost instantaneous recovery , show resilience , and the next time not show any problem or hesitation. This is only the youngest of dogs.

Raising two dogs in the household not ideal for a service dog. 

Your dog has not been confronted with threat yet , so maybe that is a test that you can set up . Have one of your officers meet with you somewhere without having any contact with the dog. Set it up so you are in an open space and your friend , the bad guy, is out of view, behind the parked vehicle, behind a building. Arrange to have a signal like you turning the other way or raising your right arm to have him stop . No point in blowing the dog away - yhou only want to see what he will do . Suddenly he comes out running towards you yelling. Allow enough distance for the dog to spot him without him being right on top of you. What does the dog do. When does he see him. Does he go forward . Does he hackle. What is his tail doing, his ears, his eyes. 

If all goes well and the dog is able to stand up to this pressure then the man goes running right by you , back in a circle to where he came from and then you can either use the dog to find him on leash , or stay where you are with ample praise , while the man goes into the car and goes away.

no friendly contact with the person. You can do all your post game break down later without the dog.

If you feel the dog genuinely has ability then keep exposing him to situations so that you can see him act or react . Don't have the two pups together.
Treat him as a working dog and not as a pet .

Also at one year of age it is a good time to check those hips and elbows with an x ray. Good orthopedics are another hurdle. No hips , no dog . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Truthfully, if he was a candidate for Patrol/Scent work......you wouldn't have these doubts from behavoirs you have seen. Just put my sixth consecutive dog into a police academy last week that was raised from puppy....from 8 weeks to 20 months he was always strong in all aspects. Pups are a crapshoot, but many can look at pups and have a good feel. Like their is a difference in a dog that's young and unexposed to something and not doing it first time and a dog that stands shaking when asked to do something first time. Good evaluators can see the difference. I now have another 6 month pup that I have raised from 8 weeks and he is very confident in new things and once shown will get the hang of something he doesn't know in heartbeat. Always ready to try...I think he will be fine. But the best way to acquire police dog is getting an older tested puppy(between 1 year and 2 years) usually from sources that have already exposed the dog to many environmental elements.


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