# what kind of aggression is this?



## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

My white Kei is exhibiting reactions that are really making me nervous. If he sees a dog or person on the street he goes into a fit of snarling,growling and biting anything and everything he can. My female gets out of his way while he has this "fit".Corrections aren't even heard and he's come at me a couple of times. He has got 2 bites already(a friend,thank god) and I'm seriously considering putting him down. My trainer tells me he's a major liability, and be careful he doesn't get loose.When he's not aggitated, he's very loving to me, but will not accept anyone else. Is his fate to cross the bridge? I've tried so hard with him,socialized,trained till I'm blue in the face and he's getting worse.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Kat, this must be terribly difficult for you. I will just supply the recommendation that everybody gives: be sure there is nothing medical at the base of this aggression.

It could be thyroid imbalance and that means a full thyroid panel. That can be done with blood submitted to Dr. Jean Dodds at itsfortheanimals.com. 

It could be a brain tumor-and your local vet can make recommendations. 

Don't think of the Bridge if Kei has a treatable medical condition.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm really sorry you and Kei are going through all this! 

Can you give some more information about the circumstances in which Kei has bitten? Also what has happened when he came at you? The circumstances leading up to it, what happened next etc. Anything you noticed about his body language? - even seemingly trivial stuff can be important.

Any background on him? Where did he come from? How long have you had him? 

Sorry for all the questions! Just trying to put it all together before weighing in. There are a couple possibilities that occur to me from your post but it's hard to tell which is correct.


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## k9ma (Nov 15, 2002)

How old is he? How long have you had him? Have you consulted a behaviorist? (Not a trainer, but someone who specializes in animal behavior, specifically aggression.)

Some articles you should read:

Who's in charge here? A lesson in becoming alpha
Nothing in life is free


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## sunnygirl272 (Dec 10, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI'm really sorry you and Kei are going through all this!
> 
> Can you give some more information about the circumstances in which Kei has bitten? Also what has happened when he came at you? The circumstances leading up to it, what happened next etc. Anything you noticed about his body language? - even seemingly trivial stuff can be important.
> 
> ...


Ditto to ALL of that.


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## COOP98 (May 26, 2007)

Dont put him down, there are many dogs that go through these stages, read what everyone has said. It may take some work,but it will be worth it. I have seen the Dog Whisperor fix many dogs like this.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

Kei came from a pound in southern Illinois about 1 1/2 years ago at the age of about 10 months to a year. He was formerly owned by a drug dealer that let him run and was finally caught by ac there. He is aggressive to animals and people. He has escalated with his aggression to the point I'm scared to death if he ever got loose what he'd do. He gets into a frenzy so bad he will bite everything around him, like the fence,a shrub,anything near him. I understand he's frustrated hence the "bite everything" but good example, today I had both dogs in the car because I'm showing the house tryig to sell and need to have both out of the house. He saw a woman walking her dog and spazzed so bad he shredded my headrest,bit his own tongue and grabbed my shoulder and ripped my jacket.He was just hellbent on getting the dog. Corrections of , no,leave it,etc weren't even heard.He's so loving with me most of the time, but this behaviour is not ok., and I'm to the point I'm afraid to walk him on the street anymore.I work with him in the yard but his attention span in low to zero most of the time. Ya I know he's around 2 and at that age full of the dickens with attituds,behaviour glitches,etc. but this is a scarey pattern he's got.Trips to the vet mean he's sedated before,muzzled and he still fights contact(he doesn't like to be restrained)I'm by no means wimpy with him but he's really I'm ashamed to say out of control.He's gone through one hip surgery, has hd but is ok.. I don't want to pts but, once the house is sold I'm going to be renting(find an apartment that will accept 2 gsd's??)and once a landlord sees Kei in action they aren't going to rent to me. When he did bite my guest, I had introduced him to the person and Kei sniffed him, turned away then turned back and bit then repeated the same action but I grabbed him before he made contact. Maybe he didn't like the person but still it wasn't ok. His action was intense sniffing at the persons feet with tail wagging, no hackles or growling.I know he's testing for alpha with me so I am sure to correct each time but god, he's wearing me out!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry that you and your dog are going through this. A few quick things to try. 

1) Get a comfortable, wire basket muzzle for Kei (you mentioned you already had one?) and get him used to wearing it. Then be sure to take him out with it on _any time_ you leave your house, even if it's in the car. 

2) Get a seatbelt for him in the car. 

3.) Read "Bringing Light to Shadow." Actually there is a huge list of books I could recommend but I would start with that one. 

4). Practice NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) if you aren't already doing it. There is no need to meet aggression with aggression. Work on being a fair and consistent leader. He gets _nothing _without giving you something in return.

5). Get a front clip harness for him. I find these much easier to control dogs with and they cause no pain to the dog so there is no risk of amping up the aggression reaction. 

6). Start practicing getting his attention every day, multiple times a day, with a really high value treat (hot dog, cheese, sandwich meat, etc.). Start inside your house and then when you're solid there, move to outside in your yard. Only give him the treat when he responds to you. Along with this, I would teach the "Look," "Focus" or "Watch Me" command. Mark it first ("YES!" or with a clicker) and then give him the treat. Then start this on walks. Start with very low level distractions like a car going by or a dog in the very far off distance. Eventually you will get an automatic look from him when he sees another dog in anticipation of the treat. It will take a while but it really can work. 

In the meantime, I would consider putting him on some sort of anti-anxiety medication or herbs. Be sure that they do not have a side effect of increasing aggression.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

I'm game to try anything at this point. I'll give everything a whirl and pray something works for my baby. He is so damned loving when he's 1:1 with me it is just so frustrating when he goes beserk the way he does. Thank you.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'll admit right up front that I've never encountered anything on the level you're describing ( - and you have my total sympathy). 

But I'm interested in aggression and I'm trying to figure this one out. Sounds like a super reactive dog (duh - sorry) but maybe fear/phobia based? I have one that will escalate and go bonkers with the things that scare him - and becomes actively aggressive towards them even though he has an avenue to escape. It's very counterintuitive and hard to deal with.

My guess would be for your guy his spastic episodes are self reinforcing - they're probably incredibly scary for him as well as everyone else and just reinforce in his brain that these things are terrifying. Sort of like if you're afraid of flying and then one time you have a panic attack on the plane, the next time you're still scared of flying AND you're remembering the panic attack. 

I had a different foster who was incredibly aggressive towards cars. Once he went into the "red zone" there was no reaching him. He couldn't hear me or perceive anything I was doing at that point, he just lost it. The good news on that one was that we were able to desensitize him eventually and now he's a perfectly normal dog.

NILIF is still an excellent program regardless of the root cause of the behavior. Any little reinforcement he gets for non knucklehead behavior is a good thing and helps build boundaries and structure to his universe. 

I like Ruth's suggestions - anything that will physically prevent his antics and stop the escalation cycle is a good idea. Do you get any ramp up before he goes into full frenzy? Are there clues that it's on it's way or is he pretty much zero to 60 in a matter of seconds? 

Has your vet looked for non obvious things like hyper thyroid (rare in dogs and typically caused a thyroid tumor) or other metabolic issues?


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

There are some plastic greyhound muzzles which could suit a GSD and the beauty is they are very light compared to many other style muzzles which helps the dog to accept them. 

I feel for you with Kei's behaviour. He has to learn that he cannot vent his aggression on your property and (if nothing else) a muzzle will at least protect your property.

All the best.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

I've seen the plastic muzzles but wondered if they'd be strong enough to do the job as opposed to the wire ones(they hurt like **** when he wacks ya with it)


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

To restrain this baby means the seatbelt is shredded,the leash is chewed through(using a chain leash now) and he just blows up. I have never seen a dog act like this. I can compare it to my kid sisters tantrums when we were small. She'd just lash out at everyone then lay on the ground kicking and screaming until she was worn out.I know he's in the butthead stage of growth, like call him to come in and he just stares at me as if he's saying"you want me to do what?" He is a very stubborn baby.(he's not 100% shep, he's either part sibe or husky)Crating him means bribe him into the crate, then when he realizes he's locked in he goes into a spaz fit.He comes up lead when walking if he sees another dog trying to get loose and bites the lead(I keep my hands out of his way) but I can hold him. I usually run across a woman walking her brothers husky and she's got him on a flat collar and holds onto the trees to keep her dog from breaking away from her. I know it is scarey to see it because he's going to get away one day. Maybe Kei feels my fear of that other dog breaking away and is reacting. I don't know anymore. I'm so confused.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: nylasmomI've seen the plastic muzzles but wondered if they'd be strong enough to do the job as opposed to the wire ones(they hurt like **** when he wacks ya with it)


Yes they do work. The wire ones are very heavy but they also work with the added "whack" impact.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

I've re-read your post several times and will have bloodwork done, and get a lighter weight muzzle, and I really CAN'T pts. I re-read my own post and saw there are areas I need to work on.I can't fail this baby and if I did pts I would be doing just that.All you guys are great when I can't see the trees for the forest you always show me the way. Thanks, I hope to be able to work Kei and me through this issue.


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

i find it really interesting you said you have 2 gsds. How does Kei act in the house around the other dog? Id their any dominance over the other dog, any fights? I think if he can see one dog hes not afraid of, then their is hope! Is your other dog good with people/dogs? or do they both have similar traits about strangers?


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## blackbirdzach (Jan 13, 2008)

Has he always been this way? I've worked with numerous aggressive dogs before, but never had one that would just "loose it" like that...biting the fence, bushes, headrests, etc.


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## bearlasmom (Sep 21, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: nylasmomI've seen the plastic muzzles but wondered if they'd be strong enough to do the job as opposed to the wire ones(they hurt like **** when he wacks ya with it)


BEARLA has a plastic bucket muzzle. it can hold up, just make sure you get the right size. Bearla is a size 9 as most GSD are from what i hear. ive never had to muzzle a dog before (except the pitbull and that is due to city laws and the ban).


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

He's grown progressively worse with his fits.When I first adopted him I found out he didn't like his feet being touched at all, and would try to bite if I tried. I still have to sedate and knock him out if his nails need trimming.(I try to keep him active on hot top to keep the nails trimmed naturally)To get his vaccinations done, he's muzzled,sedated and at least 2 vet techs to hold him. I don't know what this baby experienced from his former owner(and my step son,(now gone).I'm trying to feel my way through his behaviour and 1. I was "the person" that took him from the flight crate,2.I am the one that does feedings,grooms,walks,exercise,etc. I'm wondering if he thinks he's protecting me? He's good with my female, both a little jealous but not an issue.


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## diva82 (Feb 20, 2007)

Hi,

You are a good person, and I commend you for taking on this responsibility. I have experience with the symptoms you described. First things first, rule out medical problems. I know, it's hard to get medical attention when the pup is terrorizing everyone who tries to help, so try this:

SUPER SOAKER water gun. The kind that has a finger-pull trigger. I've worked with numerous behaviorists, professional trainers, etc., and found that even the craziest reactive dogs can be "shocked" out of their fits. You just have to find the right thing. For one of my rescues, the prong only excited his aggression faster. I needed something to snap him out of his fit and get his attention if only for a split second. 

I had water gun in one hand and sprayed it towards the front feet or head area. It might grab your boy's attention for enough time to allow you to give a proper correction and command. After a few corrections, all I had to do is shake the water gun and the sound of the splashing water was enough to make my boy back off.

Everyone has provided you great advice here. Find what you are comfortable with and believe in, because if you don't believe it can work, your implementation will be weak. He needs a strong-minded handler that he can look to to lead him. Strive to be that leader and don't give up!


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

I remember this dog. He didn't behave like this initially, did he? I thought his shelter temp test was perfect.

Has he had bad experiences with other dogs?

When you say you've "trained till you're blue in the face," what methods were you using? Do you use clicker or other positive training, or are you using more traditional methods, like with a choke chain, pinch collar or shock collar? 

What training have you tried when he's reacted?


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

Here's what we had on the original intake of Kei (formerly Kilo):



> Quote: Young white purebred german shepherd. Kilo was an owner
> surrender because he did not want to pay for a ticket. He is a bit shy but friendly.


Nylasmom, what has happened since then? BTW -- I know this town and the ACO at the Richland County shelter. This is my mother's home town and my grandmother still lives there.


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## artisgsd (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: COOPERGSDDont put him down, there are many dogs that go through these stages, read what everyone has said. It may take some work,but it will be worth it. I have seen the Dog Whisperor fix many dogs like this.


In the Dog Whisperer the dog isn't the problem, it's the owner that's the problem. 

Have you contacted a behaviorist or a trainer? It doesn't sound like you are equipped to handle this alone...otherwise, it's going to end very badly for Kei.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I really wish I had this forum 15 years ago with my Heidi......she would go absolutely bullistic if someone knocked, or walked in front of the house........she became completely unhinged if someone rang the doorbell. Biting the handle and sounding like she would chew right through the door. I could never break her of it.....the thing is, as soon as I let the person in, she would run and get her toy and bring it to the visitor and loved to be petted by the new person and wanted to play.....really weird...No aggression outside the house, no fear of dogs, people, fireworks.....nothing......but if someone walked by the house or stepped on the property.....all bets were off. Kids stopped walking down the sidewalk in front of our house, they would actually cross the street pass and then cross back.......I always felt so bad about that.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

Susan glad to see you here. He has never been able to have his feet(nails) done, he is resistant to being hel(I do cuddle him as much as he'll let me) but he will come to me when he wants attention. I go with his flow so I don't spook him.When I first got him my older big male and he were not good with each other, so I did the crate,gate,seperate and he did good with my female. Last spring my big male was pts due to not being able to stand anymore(spondylosis) Kei has been good with my female, but doesn't want/accept other dogs. Socialization ongoing but he stands up on his back feet to try to get the other dogs when on walks, in petsmart,etc. He tries to bite me when I cut my own nails ?? so I close the door so he can't see me. I use a prong collar to train with and he does heel and sit and come(on leash) but freaks when there's another dog around(not my female) With me he is great but, I am at my wits end trying to figure out what is wrong. He will get up on my bed and roll onto his back to wake me up and we "play" touch his feet and cuddle. He's very affectionate at this time and I take full advantage of touching feet.nose,etc. Something my stepson did probably had something to do with his reactions: I was late going to work one night and it was just before Kei' s first hip surgery(had 2) and I caught ss shove him into the wall with his foot.His father did not correct so I suspect something was going on when I was at work, time frame unknown. In less than 1 weeks time both he and his father were gone from the house for good.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

I don't want to put him down. I see something with him that keeps me trying to find what's wrong. The negative people in this house are gone and I am looking for a new place(short sale) Nice guy hubby to push for foreclosure. Lookiing for an apt that I can keep both my dogs. It's hard, time is running out. I almost had a rent to own in nh on 2 acres but the woman kinda pulled back on the deal, long story. I'm sure they both feel my stress too.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Guess I would reply to this given my experience with a damaged rescue GSD.I adopted despite a history of dog aggression/bite.I felt my love and support could change/save this dog.I still have him and he is my heart dog HOWEVER.I expected too much from this damaged dog thought love and training could solve everything-NOT true in some cases.What did I do --2 trainers 1 dog behaviorist NILF tethering.I still have and love this damaged dog but have learned to accept his limits and still give him a somewhat limited full life.As in post he has come up the leash at me on a prong collar -has unrelenting dog aggression despite MANY attempts to correct.I guess I would say there are some dogs that have been so damanged by ignorant/uncaring humans that despite whatever is done they will never truly 100% recover.If you accept the limits most of these dogs will be 100% loving obedient to you as their leader but will always be unreliable in 'wierd/scary/who knows what situations.(depends on history)I guess I believe in what Cesar Milan says about dogs being able to live in present.BUT this is NOT true under all circumstances.If you are strong and loving enough to be able to rehome such a dog there are many rewards as they tend to bond very closely to you.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

Susan, It turned out Kei is part husky not a pb. He's still got his freckles,marches like a soldier and stamps his feet. Yes, he stamps his feet, like thumper.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

He has bonded to me alone. He does accept my own son and his girl but no one else.I just keep thinking he thinks he's protecting me and is scrambled on the right way to do it. Maybe the big world is too big for him to understand?


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

On one of many positives Kei does is wait to go out the door until I exit then waits to be told to come. Gentleman. He's easy to train in some areas and combative in others. He's very smart, even after his hip surgery after fighting the vets contact initially, he walked over to her and put his head on her shoulder(she was sitting on the floor with him) and just nuzzled her. Is this a fear/aggression he's been exibiting?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Nylasmom==Think you may have understood this dog.What you do is up to you.My dog totally!!accepts those I accept and conditionally accepts others.I keep myself in front of anyone who I know my dog has not accepted.I also give him lots of challenges/one on one one learning and a safe place for him to be (his room in my house).He will NEVER be a perfect dog and may be a liability.It is totally up to me how far I will go.I will NOT yo-yo this dog he is my responsibility and my liability (kinda like a skinkid)


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

What do you mean? Do I have his number sort of, or am I all wrong? I know he's a liability but I do not try to set him up in a negative place to react bad, I'm careful about where we go and if we need to be in an area where he may act out(vet's office) I do muzzle him for his safety as well as others. I think I'm being preventive? But then I second guess myself am I antagonizing by muzzling and preventing his natural defense(to bite) to protect himself?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I would say this is almost certainly fear aggression. He's fine in his comfort zone - with you, with your other dog, at your house etc. Where he has problems is out in the big scary world. 

I think muzzling him where you have to is for his protection as much as anyone's. It's very important that you never put him in a position where he bites someone because the consequences for him are likely to be more severe than to that person. 

That said, I wouldn't take him places where he needs to be muzzled unless you absolutely have to because scaring him is just going to set you back further as his having him reinforced for acting up. I think you''d both really benefit from some sessions with am experienced positive-based behaviorist looking into ways to desensitize him slowly and gradually. 

Is that an option where you live? Maybe some people here have recommendations of someone good?


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

Kat, 

IMHO, I'd start working with this guy in a more positive manner. Popping him with a pinch collar is obviously not working. Whether he's PB or not (and, yes, I remember his freckles), he may be too soft a dog to work with harsh training.

If you're in Massachusetts, I know there are good, positive, clicker-style trainers in your area, particularly if you're near the NH border. Our NH foster home goes to training in MA every week.

If I remember correctly, you've had some problems previously with aggressive dogs. If I were you, and I know I'm not, I think I would be looking to modify my management style because it doesn't seem to be working very well. If you suspect that your husband and step-son were abusing your dog(s), it's great that they're gone, but that just means that you have a lot of repair work to do to rebuild their trust and reduce their anxiety.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

He sounds as if he is fear aggressive with redirected aggression. this boy will need a lot of time and work to heal. This is not an overnight or even a "better after a month" process. This will be something you will need to work on for at least a year. During that year you must manage him very carefully.

There is a great book out there called "How To Right A Dog Gone Wrong" that details what to teach him and how to go about his desensitizing and training him. It is a long process and it is by the same woman who wrote "Bringing Light To Shadow". 

This is a long process and correcting him is not the way to go. Aggression begets aggression and correcting him either physically or audibly is not going to work. New connections need to be made in his brain about how to relax and accept things he is unsure of. This will take time. He can get better with consistant management and training, though he will probably never be 100% trustworthy. 

Read those two books. They don't cost much and usually you can find them a little cheaper on Amazon or even ebay.

He really needs positive training and group classes are not the way to start with him. Take private lessons and read as much as possible.

Good luck!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

What fun is it to own a dog like this? You live in a constant state of WORRY/STRESS.. when is he gonna bite someone else, what if he gets out, can I lose my house if he bites the wrong person, what if he seriously injury's someone, a child perhaps? With a dog like you've described, you have to be on guard 24/7.. 

Is it really worth it, when there are so many nice, nice, NICE dogs out there..

You are never gonna change a dog like this.. Been there done that and will never do it again..


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

G-burg If i may I will agree and disagree at the same time.Some human MAY have made this dog be the way he is OR it may be genetic.I would not encourage anyone with children or those who cannot provide a secure non-threatening environment and more patience and perhaps a bit of non-dominance than an average dog owner might have-this includes those who say a GOOD dog is a totally reliable obedient dog.A totally reliable dog may massage your ego a troubled dog is NOT a total loss and can teach you more than you think about how to be a responsible owner and also a true DOG lover!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I totally agree ttalldog! Also, we need to be really careful giving advice to give up on a dog via the Internet without actually having evaluated it ourselves. Look at the dog in MI posted on the non-urgent board. The dog was adopted from a rescue but the new home said he was aggressive, was biting people, and would try to attack other dogs. 

He's now in another rescue and from what I hear is doing just fine with everybody. The people that owned him seem to have misdiagnosed uninhibited puppy behavior as aggression. 

I rescued a dog myself who was described as untrustworthy and aggressive towards people. She even had an appointment to be put down. The only reason I even found out about her was through a friend of a friend, the people that owned the dog weren't trying to place her, they were trying to do what they thought was the "responsible" thing. 

I evaluated this dog and she was AWESOME! No aggression at all. I probed further with the people - and finally got her to do what they'd been describing. The "attacks"? When when this young working lines girl got really riled up playing she would jump up and grab people's sleeves or pants legs. For this she was termed "aggressive" and was going to die. 

I'm not saying that's what's happening here or that Kei doesn't have real issues but all these terms we throw around are highly subjective and open to interpretation. 

It would be tragic to steer someone towards a decision like that for a fixable problem. 

I hope Kei's owner is able to hook up with a reputable positive-based trainer. Even if Kei has fear aggression issues, there's often a lot that can be done with a dog like that especially since he has a history of evaling okay.


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

Susan, yes I did have a problem with 2 dogs in the past. One was diagnosed with a physcotic break before I ever got him and I had to deal with the results. He was diagnosed by a vet not me. I tried for 4 months to work with that dog and he got steadily worse and finally returned to his rescue org. The second was a poor soul that had lived his 3 years on the end of a rope and poorly if at all fed. He also was, by a vet, diagnosed as a dangerous dog. I know I have a lot to learn with training ,that's why I ask so many questions, I want what's best for my dogs and for them to be happy. A lot of pound dogs do have issues, not all, but I am trying to find a way for this dog to be happy within himself and not be so afraid of the world. There has been a LOT of feedback regarding this issue and I do thank everyone that has given me both positive/negative answers.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Having lived with a dog who was severely neglected and abused for 4.5 years, I will second calls for working with the dog and not giving up on him. Basu grew into a wonderful companion and I was able to take him anywhere after a few years of counter-conditioning and many training classes. Exercise can be very helpful because it tires them out and makes them more relaxed. I would also read every positive training book for dogs with fear and aggression issues you can get your hands on. I've gotten a lot from the library and the rest used on-line. Classes would also be very good for both of you.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I am glad you want to help Kei. I hope you are able to find a behaviorist who can work with you both. 

Please be very cautious taking advice on behavior from veterinarians. People think of vets as experts on all things dog but they are not. More recent graduates may have had a few rotations and be better informed but for the most part vets are not equipped to deal with behavioral problems. This isn't a slam of vets - it's just like going to your general practitioner for counseling help. The most responsible thing the GP can do is refer you to a psychologist. 

This board alone is full of people who were given outdated and potentially destructive advice on training from their vet. 

Is there a positive-philosophy behaviorist person up there who will work with you?


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## nylasmom (Aug 21, 2002)

Ruth, thank you. I do know I need a different trainer for what I need to do. My present trainer has brought me as far as he can and I know I need to "specialize" with a new one. Books are good, questions are good, and just having the great support group here is helping me immensley. I know there's a problem with my baby and I just need to find the magic button that will click for him/me to work through this issue.Thank you.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Kudos on not giving up on this guy. While not every dog can be saved the vast majority can from all that I've seen & read.

You're wise to get a 2nd trainer at this point. My own dog problems have been blessedly easy compared to yours but one thing I've found useful is to 'think outside the box'. 

WHAT is causing this? Fear/anxiety seems the most likely cause but it's not the only one & it's essential to understand why he's aggressing.

What can you do to get his attention? You're spinning your wheels unless you can get him to focus on you. Worse, the continued bad behavior is reinforcing itself & becoming increasingly ingrained.

Is he food motivated? Does he like realllly yummy treats? IF you use food as a motivator I'd keep him extremely hungry so the treats are more tempting. (IF you do that, have your vet confirm that his food intake can be safely resticted)

How much damage or injury has he caused with his biting to either humans or other animals? IF he hasn't caused much then, it could be his aggression is a lot of show, not so much immediate danger. Not that it isn't still risky, & to be taken very seriously, but his intentions could be more about warning/bluffing than hurting.

Have you discussed medicating him with your vet & trainer? It shouldn't be done hastily, but it's worth considering, especially if being pts is a possibility. You need a clear idea of what medication can reasonably accomplish & what are its limitations, but for some dogs it can be a valuable adjunct to training & behavior modification. IMO, there are dogs that are 'organically mentally ill' ie their problems are not due solely to environment, including past abuse.

I've got all paws crossed for you & Kei.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

A couple of things I see here:
There's a chance the dog is over-attached. This IS a case where I would suggest he not be allowed on the bed or with other privileges until he regains control. I think (there are too many posts to straighten it all out) you claimed to be practicing NILIF but if you are, you are not doing it correctly or the dog would not be getting these rewards when his behavior is the way you describe.
I would suggest you try to change your mind set and stop referring to him as "my baby" because I think this feeds into the idea that he may be over attached. Start thinking of him as your dog, expect him to behave as a dog, and take direction as a dog.
One of the worst things to do in a situation like this is to use any product that causes the perception of potential pain (prong collar) ESPECIALLY when it does nothing to help the situation. A harness may be a better deal.
If I've followed the thread correctly this is your third dog with issues like this. The other two were problems before you got them but they were still significant problem animals that were in your care. You may want to step back and work through why you are drawn to do this. I find it helpful in dealing with situations to figure out why I put myself in that place. I can then figure out the current situation a little better. Anyway, sometimes it helps. At least it gets me a little out of the moment, a little more balanced.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If I were in MA I would check out Tufts. 

Current studies: http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/case_current.shtml

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

You might want to look into CAT (Constructional Aggression Treatment). 
I've heard of several success stories with similar dogs then yours. 
CAT


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