# Are we doing Raw right? (Long)



## AMS06 (Apr 20, 2009)

Hello, I’ve been lurking around since before we got our pup, but this is my first post. Our boy Gibbs just turned two in March and he is about 90# and Neutered. I’ll give some history to help with my questions. 

We got Gibbs as an 8 week old puppy in May of 2009. At that time he was on Puppy Chow, but we quickly switched him over to Eagle Pack Holistic Select Large breed Puppy. He did well on this food, except his stools were often soft. I wanted to try switching him to RAW but at that time it wasn’t possible. At about 10 months of age or so we tried supplementing with a little raw on top of his kibble, most of the time we gave him a couple of ounces of burger. His stools became nice and firm and all was well. We then switched him to the Holistic Select Large breed food when he turned one, and shortly after he had diarrhea constantly. At the time we did not link it with the food change. At first our vet thought it might be a bacterial infection because it was in the spring and there was a lot of standing dirty water from the spring thaw. She gave us some antibiotic and had us put him on a boiled burger and rice diet for a week. His stools became perfect for that week and we thought all was well. Then when he was back on the kibble the diarrhea returned, we then tried other foods, some with better results than others. We then realized that it seemed to be the chicken in the dog food that was affecting him. The ones with extreme diarrhea had chicken at the top of the ingredient list. The others that were better had it farther down the list. We finally settled on Innova Red Meat because of the lack of chicken. His stools were much better but still a large percentage of them were still soft. So we started adding the burger again and that seemed to work. 

Fast forward to this winter when he started getting very dry itchy skin, we tried giving him fish oil pills, with no avail, so in the middle of February when we started noticing his fur getting thin due to itching, we decided to switch him to a completely RAW diet. We were in hopes that it would help the dry skin issues as well as the soft stools. It has helped substantially with his stools, they are much smaller and always nice and firm. His teeth are now nice and white and his breath never smells. The issue is that the dry skin has persisted. After more research on this wonderful forum, I have now switched to high quality salmon oil, and I also give him a vitamin E supplement. Also recently we added brewer’s yeast supplements trying to improve the skin and coat. In the last week or so the itching has subsided some, but that may be due to the temperatures finally warming up and the furnace running less. I’m not sure. 

Also in the last couple of weeks his ears have seemed to become slightly pink. I consulted a friend of ours who is a vet, because our Vet moved out of the area. I soon found out that he is very anti-raw, and was blaming the apparent allergy on the Raw food. We are currently trying to find a Vet that is friendly to the RAW diet as our last Vet was, but in the meantime. Is it possible that he is allergic to meat? The dry skin was before the completely raw diet so I don’t believe it can be blamed for that. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to help with the itching?

Before I mentioned that Gibbs is about 90 pound, he actually was a little over 90 pounds at 10 months old, and has stayed roughly right there ever since. He is actually down a bit so we are trying to up his food intake some. That was another reason we switched to the raw diet, because he never filled out, he is still fairly thin. So currently we are feeding him 8-9 ounce of beef heart and 7-8 ounces of pork necks twice a day. We tried adding 1 once of chicken liver once a day, but he wouldn’t touch it and actually wouldn’t go near the bowl if the liver even touched the bowl or anything in it. So we are currently trying to find a source for kidney or green tripe to try as an OM. I also give him an egg twice a week and sardines once a week. Am I missing something that could help his skin?

We are currently avoiding poultry because of his issues with the chicken in the kibble before. I was going to try turkey necks and possible chicken quarters soon once he seems to settle on the pork necks and beef heart. But recently there seems to be an issue with that as well. Last week he started skipping the RMB portion of his meal every couple of days. Now in the last three days or so he won’t touch the RMB at all. I even tried giving him a turkey neck as something new. No go. So today I put the RMB down only, with the thought that once he eats that I will put down the MM. He wouldn’t touch it this morning. So I picked it up and then offered it to him again at lunch. No go. I will offer it to him again at dinner, figuring eventually he will be hungry enough to eat it, and then I will give him the MM. My only concern with this is that we need him to put on a little weight, not lose more. Any suggestions on how to get him eating the RMB again, and why he lost interest in it in the first place? Any other suggestion on his diet? 

I know this is a long post, but I wanted to give enough back ground for people to understand the situation. 

Thanks


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Dogs can have allergies to some raw protein sources, too... so it is possible he's allergic to something you're feeding. There isn't a huge variety in his diet, so I would first suspect some sort of environmental allergy rather than something you're feeding him (unless it's perhaps a treat of some sort - see below). A few environmental things I would be look at are the laundry soap I wash my dogs beds with, any sort of air freshener (Fabreeze is a common allergen for dogs), or any kind of carpet or floor cleaner.

Are you giving him any sort of treats in addition to his raw diet? We discovered that our Rottie cannot tolerate Innova Wellbars biscuits... they give him ear infections. Innova is a very good brand, IMO, but for some reason they just didn't work to him. Once we cut out the biscuits, the ear issues resolved. 

You may have difficulty finding a vet that supports raw. My vet and I have agreed to disagree on the subject. She does bring it up as the first thing she feels is wrong every time one of my dogs has an issue. I listen to her input, do my own research, make my own decisions, and so far the issues have always been non-raw diet related. It is definitely frustrating to have a vet always look at raw as the first culprit, to the point of wanting to ignore everything else, but it is up to us to be our dog's best advocate and insist on checking for other things. Make sure you have the vet rule out ear mites, fleas, etc. 

As far as your dog's raw diet, if it were me, I would be giving more variety. Once you get the ear issues figured out, I would even consider adding in poultry. For one thing, duck and turkey are quite different from chicken, and just because he's allergic to chicken, doesn't mean all poultry is bad. Additionally, some dogs are allergic to the cooked down/processed kind of chicken found in kibble but do perfectly well with raw chicken.

As far as the RMBs, feel free to feed meatier cuts that simply contain bones, rather than something like a pork neck which is mostly bone. My dogs get pork ribs, pork butts, pork chops, etc, as well as bone in venison, chicken, turkey, partridge.... basically anything I can get my hands on. Beef is really the only meat I will always feed boneless, and I don't just feed hearts... I also feed boneless beef roasts, steaks, hamburger, etc. 

One thing your dogs diet may be lacking is Omega3. If you're purchasing meat from a wholesaler or grocery store, it is likely corn or grain fed which eliminates a lot of the Omega 3. You will want to supplement with fish oil (not sure if you're still doing that) or even sardines. I chose to switch to sardines after reading a lot of bad things about PCPs in fish oil pills.

As far as organ meat is concerned, kidneys are good, but I don't believe tripe is considered an organ meat. It is a muscle meat (please someone correct me if I'm wrong). Liver is also very important.. some rawfeeders (myself included) recommend that half of the organ meat intake should be liver. I would continue to try to entice your pup to eat it. I've found with my dogs if I feed it like it's a wonderful, yummy, amazing treat, they'll eat just about everything. You can also try lightly searing the liver or dressing it up with butter or parmesan cheese.

Hope this helps!


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

My dog Zeus was fed raw starting from 8 months old. All of a sudden in 2006, he developed an allergy- it CAN happen overnight- according to the specialist Vet that we saw.

Before going to a specialist, we took him to 3 different Vets and they all had different diagnosis- I remember one of them was PF- he even suggested cutting my dog's tail off!

I started feeding him Venison only, there's a dry food version because believe me I know how expensive the raw venison is. 

After he finished a whole bag- I tried chicken for 1 week. Nothing but chicken, no supplements, no vitamins. The next week- it was turkey.. and so on and so forth.

We won the battle in the end, it took a while but he got over his allergy. We still don't know what it was.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Get rid of the brewer's yeast. Many dogs are allergic to it. How much salmon oil do you feed? He may have environmental allergens that diet can help, but won't eliminate. The dry air from the furnace is hard on their skin just like it is on ours. 

He won't eat beef liver? I have one dog that doesn't care much for liver. It needs to be slightly frozen, cut into small pieces and mixed very well with yogurt and eggs. Two of my dogs hate chicken liver. 

If you decide to try poultry again, slowly introduce turkey or duck. If that is OK then try chicken. If the diarrhea comes back then you know that he can't tolerate chicken. 

You might feed fish one more day per week and he could probably tolerate a few more eggs (or at least the yolks).


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

I’ve become a firm believer in green tripe…its done wonders for Miikka. I believe the froze is better than the canned stuff so that’s what I use. 

Here is a link to the brand we use. We can purchase it locally but if you cannot, you can order it online here. www.greentripe.com We use both the Excalibur and the regular tripe. The Excalibur is tripe with a few extras: organ meat, gullet, ground bone and a few other animal body parts :crazy:. I mix the two kinds up together and then separate everything into serving sizes and freeze it until ready to use. The reason I use both is because Miikka eats a lot of turkey necks and I don’t want to give her too much bone so I use the regular tripe to offset the extra bone in the Excalibur. I give my dogs about a ½ cup of tripe everyday. 

Tripe is very, very smelly. It smells awful but it works wonders. Oh, and another thing..I use rubber gloves when I work with it. 

If you go to the above link there is an article about tripe and its many wonders…you should read it.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

For the liver, try pork or beef liver and see if he has a better reaction to it. If not, you can feed it frozen, or try cooking it slightly (or completely) just to get him to eat it. If he'll eat it cooked, gradually cook it less and less each day until he's eating it raw.

If you are feeding half pork necks and half beef heart it might be a little heavy on the bone...the pork necks are very bony. So for him to prefer muscle meat is not the end of the world especially if you're trying to put weight on him...JMO. You can use crushed eggshells with the MM to provide calcium - I can't tell you the exact amount through, I have not had to try that as mine will eat anything. But maybe someone else can tell you or you could find it on google. I wouldn't use it forever, eventually he will have to eat bone but for now it'd be fine.
I would also leave out the brewer's yeast.
Tripe is fed as MM - so it is not an organ. Liver, kidney, lung, brain, sweetbreads...those are OM.

My oldest has a lot of allergies - but since being on raw they are 90% improved. However she can only tolerate certain meats...she has allergies to chicken, beef, and pork, but she does fine on turkey, lamb/mutton, goat, duck, and rabbit. Djenga can eat everything except venison - she starts losing hair on her chest and legs, and gets terrible ear infections if we feed her much venison. But each dog is different...some can't tolerate chicken kibble for example but will do fine on raw chicken. So you will have to see how your guy does on each type of protein.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with feeding the organ meat partially frozen....that goes for fish too. My dogs won't eat fish if it is thawed.
I also _Totally_ agree with the fresh(frozen)green tripe.
This article outlines the benefits:
A Place for Paws - Columbiana, Ohio - Tripe - The Other White Meat


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Miikkas mom said:


> I’ve become a firm believer in green tripe…its done wonders for Miikka. I believe the froze is better than the canned stuff so that’s what I use.
> 
> Here is a link to the brand we use. We can purchase it locally but if you cannot, you can order it online here. www.greentripe.com We use both the Excalibur and the regular tripe. The Excalibur is tripe with a few extras: organ meat, gullet, ground bone and a few other animal body parts :crazy:. I mix the two kinds up together and then separate everything into serving sizes and freeze it until ready to use. The reason I use both is because Miikka eats a lot of turkey necks and I don’t want to give her too much bone so I use the regular tripe to offset the extra bone in the Excalibur. I give my dogs about a ½ cup of tripe everyday.
> 
> ...


Ditto. Although I don't mix the xkabiler and the greentripe together, I avoid getting in contact with the tripe, even though I wear gloves. What I do is, I feed the 2 lb. xcaliber once a week, that is pretty much his meal for the whole day, half in the morning and half at dinner.


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## AMS06 (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies and information. We do seem to be making progress. I went with Rott-n-GSDs suggestion and seared the chicken liver with a little butter as a treat removed from dinner and Gibbs gobbled it up. I will try beef liver the same way, but I bet he will love it just the same. I also cut out all supplements over the weekend and the pink ears seemed to clear up very quickly. My guess is the brewers yeast was the issue as ihczth mentioned. 

We don’t use Fabreeze or other air fresheners. Friends of ours had a problem with their dog having seizures, and it turned out to be the Fabreeze they used. So we have stayed away from those kinds of things. 

We started giving him a little ground turkey and it seems to be going well so far. I will stick with that for a while, and then try chicken. I will also increase the fish and eggs as suggested and I will also hunt down the green tripe. How much of the MM should be green tripe? 

Thanks again for all the information.


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