# Brazilian Fila: As a protection dog



## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

It is my long term dream to own big live stock guardian breeds or mastiffs that are naturally protective.
Unfortunately now the circumstances don't permit. So I indulge myself only by reserching about these breeds.

Recently I did some research on the Fila Brasileiro also known as the Brazilian Mastiff.
One of the unique characteristics of this breed is the Portuguese word "Ojeriza", which directly translated into English means dislike and distrust.

They bond closely to their family, but have extreme disturst with strangers ehich make them effective guard dogs. They attack by jumping and holding the adversary in the face. They were originally developed to hold the prey, rather than tearing the prey apart.

Has any body in this fourm trained a Fila?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

It's my understanding that all mastiffs are protective of their families. One of the guys that work for me has had a lot of old English mastiffs and said that they have all been pretty distrustful of strangers.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'll admire them from afar.The liability issues scare me.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

One of the worse breeds to have if you expect ANY interaction with new people. They have a 6 month window (read somewhere) for socialization, and after that good luck trying to get them to be ok with new people. Not a breed for anyone that doesn't live on a 1000 acre ranch.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You better be very sure a stranger was trying to kill you if you have a 100 lb plus dog who will jump up and try to rip their face off. That is a lifetime disfigurement for the UPS guy...


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

I'd rather have my 75lb lean quick gsd than a 100lb mastiff. Also I'd rather have a dog that is neutral to everyone that i can light up easily than one that is naturally distrustful and I have to fight against every time I go for a walk. I dont know much about the fila but they dont seem like the ideal candidate for a PPD. Then again everyone will have their own goals and preferences.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Our neighbor had a Fila for a time. Reading about them, I was intrigued that they are judged in the show ring UNTOUCHED by the judge. I would not want the liability involved with owning such a breed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

maxtmill said:


> Our neighbor had a Fila for a time. Reading about them, I was intrigued that they are judged in the show ring UNTOUCHED by the judge. I would not want the liability involved with owning such a breed.


The way that reads it sounds like they weren't a permanent home for the dog? Any details of what happened. 

A couple years ago i heard about this guy who was crossing filas, dogos, and pit bulls trying to make the ultimate guard dog.

My impression was that it would be safer to put a little bottle rocket where the sun don't shine then be around that cross.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

My issue with a dog like that, is where is the enjoyment of being on guard all of the time? A well bred, sound gsd or malonois, or dutch will be a lot more enjoyable.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

voodoolamb said:


> The way that reads it sounds like they weren't a permanent home for the dog? Any details of what happened.
> 
> A couple years ago i heard about this guy who was crossing filas, dogos, and pit bulls trying to make the ultimate guard dog.
> 
> My impression was that it would be safer to put a little bottle rocket where the sun don't shine then be around that cross.


Well, the dog suddenly was not around anymore - we could see him in his fenced back yard when we drove home every night from work. One of the other neighbors said he died. I don't know the details, but he was a young animal. Then soon after the neighbors moved out and allowed their home to foreclose.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Interesting to note that unlike other breeds, the Fila breeders did not change the type of their breed in order to make them more suitable for a wider class of owners. They chose to stick to preserve the basic characteristic of their breed, although that meant their breed would be less popular than other more docile large breeds.

Even the show judges, respected and encouraged to preserve the nature of Fila. Something that did not happen for Dobes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

TEZPUR1976 said:


> Interesting to note that unlike other breeds, the Fila breeders did not change the type of their breed in order to make them more suitable for a wider class of owners. They chose to stick to preserve the basic characteristic of their breed, although that meant their breed would be less popular than other more docile large breeds.
> 
> Even the show judges, respected and encouraged to preserve the nature of Fila. Something that did not happen for Dobes.


The breeders of other breeds did not have to contend with the version of epilepsy (rage) that Dobe breeders had to and to do damage control.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Fila doing protection work

Rainha_video


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

I find few things quite remarkable about the filas and the breed enthusiasts

1. Although Fila entered show ring, but the breed did not undergo much change from its original type. Eg. In almost all the large breeds which went to shows, the antomy has undergone substantial change (except for Filas). For almost all other show line dogs the rear of the dog is Not substantially higher than wither. That would in fact be considered as quite undesirable in many show line breeds including GSDs. But in Fila's even the show dogs are high in the rear. That's accepted as the type.

2. The temperament of the Fila was not changed or softened. The show world accepted the Fila the way it is.
In that way the breed has been very lucky that it was not changed for commercial or glamour reasons.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The breeders of other breeds did not have to contend with the version of epilepsy (rage) that Dobe breeders had to and to do damage control.


Do you mind explaining the context behind that?



TEZPUR1976 said:


> I find few things quite remarkable about the filas and the breed enthusiasts
> 
> 1. Although Fila entered show ring, but the breed did not undergo much change from its original type. Eg. In almost all the large breeds which went to shows, the antomy has undergone substantial change (except for Filas). For almost all other show line dogs the rear of the dog is Not substantially higher than wither. That would in fact be considered as quite undesirable in many show line breeds including GSDs. But in Fila's even the show dogs are high in the rear. That's accepted as the type.
> 
> ...


OP, I too am a great admirer of the LGD-type dogs. I especially respect how many of these breeds have maintained a working and functional heritage and are still actively employed in the pastoral communities. I've only read about the Fila briefly, but it seems like an interesting breed and certainly worth seeing in person.

It's a shame that there has been negativity in some of the responses. This is GSD forum, so some bias is to be expected. Yet, I think its foolish to analyze and criticize LGD, or any dogs, through the perspective of GSD ownership. LGD's are an entirely different type of dog with very different temperaments (and even within that "LGD" category there is a broad spectrum of types and personalities). I don't think this dog, or similar breeds, are "walking liabilities" as some have suggested. It's incumbent upon the owner to make sure he/she has the training experience, physical space, and overall capacity to raise and keep such dogs; most violent incidents involving these types of dogs reflect the owner's inexperience and neglect more than anything else. 

I really do hope that the Fila maintains a working temperament. That said, if it's already in the show-ring, I think it's only a matter of time before the breed, or at least certain lines of the breed, start to "soften" up.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Do you mind explaining the context behind that?


There is a type of epilepsy that manifests itself as a raging attack on anybody near the dog when it is having a seizure. The dog is not aware of its surroundings, not recognizing people either, including its owners. The layman's term is "rage" syndrome. When the seizure is over, the dog acts confused and seems to be unaware of what just occurred as it returns to its normal self.

It is a genetic, health condition that was prevalent in Dobermans which led to them getting labeled as being known "to turn on their owners". Before breeders knew what they were dealing with, some tried breeding for a kinder and gentler Doberman hoping to ameliorate the condition thinking it was an aggression problem. When the widespread condition was finally identified, Doberman breeders were then able to nearly eliminate the condition in the breed. In the meantime, much damage had been done to the breed's reputation, and the trend to breed extra soft Dobes continued, giving us Dobes as we know them today in the US.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a type of epilepsy that manifests itself as a raging attack on anybody near the dog when it is having a seizure. The dog is not aware of its surroundings, not recognizing people either, including its owners. The layman's term is "rage" syndrome. When the seizure is over, the dog acts confused and seems to be unaware of what just occurred as it returns to its normal self.
> 
> It is a genetic, health condition that was prevalent in Dobermans which led to them getting labeled as being known "to turn on their owners". Before breeders knew what they were dealing with, some tried breeding for a kinder and gentler Doberman hoping to ameliorate the condition thinking it was an aggression problem. When the widespread condition was finally identified, Doberman breeders were then able to nearly eliminate the condition in the breed. In the meantime, much damage had been done to the breed's reputation, and the trend to breed extra soft Dobes continued, giving us Dobes as we know them today in the US.


Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't heard of that before, so I'll have to read up on it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm guessing lawsuits were not a thing when the Fila was being developed. Yes, this is a GSD forum, and most of us were drawn to the shepherd breeds because of their extreme love of people, especially "their" people, coupled with protective instincts, trainability, intelligence, versatility, and physical beauty. 

So, I don't think it's too surprising that some people on this forum would not be drawn to Filas, a dog who attacks people in the face, for just being there and has the power to kill a full grown human without the control to be called off or discernment not to go after everyone. Needs a very special handler, and lots of management. Not my thing, and maybe it's fine if dogs of this nature are bred out of existence. 

I like wolves, admire them and respect them. This does not mean I want one as a pet or in my home. Or that I'd trust one around my children. 

Just because a dog retains it's true "working lineage" does not mean it is a good dog. If that working lineage entails mauling strangers, poor trainability, and little connection to humans, including the handler, well, that's not a dog that I'd like to encounter. The only use for a dog like that is to keep it on a short chain protecting treasure. I just can't see any utility to a Fila in today's society. 

It's an animal. With instincts, and weighs 100 lbs. Because I respect that, I don't have any illusions. 

Fila's are statistically a very dangerous and deadly breed for humans. Know what you are getting into and be realistic in expectations.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I'm guessing lawsuits were not a thing when the Fila was being developed. Yes, this is a GSD forum, and most of us were drawn to the shepherd breeds because of their extreme love of people, especially "their" people, coupled with protective instincts, trainability, intelligence, versatility, and physical beauty.
> 
> *So, I don't think it's too surprising that some people on this forum would not be drawn to Filas, a dog who attacks people in the face, for just being there* and has the power to kill a full grown human without the control to be called off or discernment not to go after everyone. Needs a very special handler, and lots of management. Not my thing, *and maybe it's fine if dogs of this nature are bred out of existence.*


You really need to take a deep breath and realize that it's okay to talk about other breeds on this forum. I think we're all GSD enthusiasts, so our admiration, and even preference, for that breed is implicitly understood. That shouldn't preclude us from having conversations about other types of dogs though.

Also, have you lived with or even met a single Fila, let alone many? I suspect that you haven't. What makes you think that they are naturally inclined to "attack people in the face" or that they need to be "bred out of existence?" Seems like an overly extreme and knee-jerk reaction based on anecdotal evidence and a few bad new stories.



Muskeg said:


> I like wolves, admire them and respect them. This does not mean I want one as a pet or in my home. Or that I'd trust one around my children.
> 
> Just because a dog retains it's true "working lineage" does not mean it is a good dog. If that working lineage entails mauling strangers, poor trainability, and little connection to humans, including the handler, well, that's not a dog that I'd like to encounter. The only use for a dog like that is to keep it on a short chain protecting treasure. I just can't see any utility to a Fila in today's society.
> 
> ...


Comparing Fila's to wolves...
Mauling strangers...
Poor trainability...
Do you have any evidence or better yet, first-hand experience, to back up these subjective assertions?

Your last comment (in bold) yields itself to an interesting point though: According to dogsbite.org (which isn't necessarily the most neutral source when it comes to this stuff, but still it's better than nothing), there are many other breeds which rank over the Fila when it comes to attacks on humans. 

Report is referenced here: Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to December 31, 2014 - By Merritt Clifton - DogsBite.org 

And can be read in full here: http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2014.pdf

Akitas, Chows, Husky's, Pitbulls, Dobermans, Boxers and, you guessed it, even GSD's (that's only naming a few) all inflicted far more injuries than this so-called "face-attacking" Fila did. Now, I grant you, the Fila is much less common than most of these other breeds. All the same, the Fila has *5* confirmed human injuries associated with it in the US over a 32 year period....the GSD, and breed mixes, has over *150 *confirmed injuries in that same time period. But according to you, Fila's are the ones we really need to watch out for.....I think you're getting a little full of yourself there.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> I'm guessing lawsuits were not a thing when the Fila was being developed. Yes, this is a GSD forum, and most of us were drawn to the shepherd breeds because of their extreme love of people, especially "their" people, coupled with protective instincts, trainability, intelligence, versatility, and physical beauty.
> 
> So, I don't think it's too surprising that some people on this forum would not be drawn to Filas, a dog who attacks people in the face, for just being there and has the power to kill a full grown human without the control to be called off or discernment not to go after everyone. Needs a very special handler, and lots of management. Not my thing, and maybe it's fine if dogs of this nature are bred out of existence.
> 
> ...


Agree.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I am a dirty rotten pit bull lover - the most dangerous "breed" according to statistics... Though to be fair there are MILLIONS of pit and pit mixes in the US. Probably less than 1000 filas...

I have serious reservations about Filas. 

Here are some quotes from a Fila breeder's website: 



> The feature that perhaps is at first sight the most apparent in a Fila brasileiro's temperament is the “ojeriza” to strangers (ojeriza = sharp aversion). On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila brasileiro puppy is not inclined to playing relaxed with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila brasileiro will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila brasileiro would surely attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him.





> Each individual dog reaches its ojeriza at a different time, usually at the age of 6-12 months, and this will be the point of no return: from the playful puppy you will get a loyal companion for the family and a deadly enemy for strangers. The mature Fila brasileiro takes over his/her role as your personal protector, from threats great or small. If offended by anybody or anything, he/she will be there to take one step forward, to growl a deep growl and stare at the offender in a most hostile way. A false move, and in a flash, before anyone could blink, your Fila brasileiro will jump up into the air and grab the bad guy’s face or throat, knocking him down to the ground, holding him still. The offender is usually not hurt at all, but is held firmly. Something that is so cool about the breed and is such a credit to them is that the response is mostly equal to the offence. This is not a breed of dog that will go overboard or lose its head easily, if properly raised. However, God save the guys who come into your house uninvited or behave in a threatening way towards you! An agitated or restless disposition in a Fila brasileiro is highly undesirable as it may be a symptom of nervousness and insecurity. One must remember that the Fila brasileiro needs provocation in order to attack, for example, when an unknown person stares at him fixedly as a challenge. Here it becomes evident another typical feature of the Fila brasileiro: his courage will not allow him to move one step back when facing a provocation of any kind. No matter which instrument is used for the attack, the Fila brasileiro's reaction is always prompt, spontaneous, and without any sign of insecurity. He throws himself forward and upwards attempting to reach the face or the throat of the aggressor.





> Of course, his aversion towards persons he does not know demands certain precautions and may bring some disadvantages. A Fila brasileiro must be under control before guests come into the house! At a show, if the judge would focus on his eyes or would try to touch the dog, he might take the risk of an attack. All this belongs to the personality of the Fila brasileiro, these reactions are essential to the breed.


Fila Brasileiro

As the owner of a genetically aggressive breed (pit bulls luckily they've been selected for animal aggression not human) I am aware of this most unfortunate trend of irresponsible owners wanting the biggest baddest dogs possible for some reason and for soft owners wanting to love the "misunderstood" breeds better. Yes pit bulls attack and kill people, however the US population of pit bulls is literally several MILLION dogs. There can't be more then a few thousand Filas here.

If Filas were as popular as pit bulls- it would be worse then that show "Zoo"


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

This is a quote from the Fila Brasileiro Breed Standards

"It is a courageous, determined and daring dog. It does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional tenderness to its owners and family. Consequently, it is an unsurpassed watch dog in the cities, and an excellent herding dog and a hunter of big animals on farms. As a result of its temperament, at dog shows it does not allow the judge(a stranger) to touch it. And if it attacks the judge, such a reaction must not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament. At temperament tests, obligatory for dogs over one year old at shows, the Fila attack must be in an ascending diagonal, in front of handler and without showing dependence from him."

This is not a dog for 90% of the people out there. I have a soft spot for large mollosser type dogs. I have owned them before. I have met many Presa, Dogo Argentino, etc. I have taken bites from Presa Canarios and I have spent the night in a hotel room with a strange Presa that was PP trained. She was a great dog. I also met (in as much as one can "meet") a few Filas. Owners were essentially isolating themselves from others at the place because they were worried their dogs would bite if anyone came within range. 

I can see some very limited use for this breed. But for the most part, it is not a breed that most people can own responsibility.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I also met a few Filas. Owners were essentially isolating themselves from others at the place because they were worried their dogs would bite if anyone came within range.


This is exactly what concerns me. What type of life is that with a dog that you can't even have near people?

I don't trust molosser and pit bulls for protection work. There is a reason that modern police and military forces the world over choose herding breeds for man work. It's the genetic obedience.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Lol...90% of the dog-owning public shouldn't be owning working line GSD's or Malinois either. Heck, I don't think that most families should be owning working line Border Collies; they tend to be neurotic PITA's in households where they aren't actively employed to herd something. I think some of the stuff that's being said here amounts to nothing more than truisms. 

And as for the all the comments about how the breed has "limited use" or how its genetic aversion to strangers is an issue, you all probably need to keep in mind where this breed came from. Brazil has one of the worst crime rates in the world. It also has a lot of pastoral communities, where such a breed likely comes in handy for livestock protection.

The breed definitely had a functional heritage, and still does it sounds like. Any average family looking to own this dog should do some self-analysis on their needs and capabilities....but that should go without saying for pretty much any dog.

I just can't stand the hype and hysteria that some people foster in these types of threads. Throwing out labels like "face-attacking" and "statistically dangerous." It's a dog...if you don't feel you can handle the responsibility of owning one, don't own it. This isn't rocket science.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> Throwing out labels like "face-attacking"


But that is an accurate description of their attack style. According to actual breeders of the dogs.

It seems to be as instinctive as a border collie 'eyeing' the herd. Or a Australian cattle dog nipping heels. Or a a pit bull 'lock jaw' and shake.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Really enjoyed the informed yet emotionally charged debate.my aim is not to compare any breed with gsd.rather to study breeds that are naturally protective. However I will like to two comments. One was regarding breeding out Filas to extinction. Lets not be drastic. Many species have fallen victim to human prejudice. Another comment was what's the fun of owning a breed like fila. Well only the owners of the fila can respond to that.&#55357;&#56842;


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wow... this thread seems blown out of proportion. granted, I've only known 1 fila and the owner was a responsible, experienced, rare mastiff fancier... but the dog had, a rather normal life. not a dog park or coffee shop dog but she walked in the pack with his others. he had a good sized property where she roamed... he had company over... she was well trained, aloof, and kept to herself... I didn't get in her space, I didn't ask to pet her, I didn't enter the house or yard w/o him or his girlfriend present.... my face was never torn off.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Fodder said:


> wow... this thread seems blown out of proportion. granted, I've only known 1 fila and the owner was a responsible, experienced, rare mastiff fancier... but the dog had, a rather normal life. not a dog park or coffee shop dog but she walked in the pack with his others. he had a good sized property where she roamed... he had company over... she was well trained, aloof, and kept to herself... I didn't get in her space, I didn't ask to pet her, I didn't enter the house or yard w/o him or his girlfriend present.... my face was never torn off.


Sounds like a nice dog, but maybe one that would not be considered a good representation of the standard. When the standard says a judge shouldn't touch the dog for fear of a bite and if the dog bites, it is just a confirmation of the dogs correct breeding, then to me, the dog you saw is not true to the breed. 

The ones I have seen both owners warned me not to get close. If I can't take my dog out in public for a walk for fear of someone coming close enough to get bit, there is no enjoyment for me. Here is a scenario that has happened to me. I got a quote for new windows. The guy shows up, I place Remi on his place, the guy is in my house for 30 minutes. He walks around, measures, etc. Remi doesn't move. Guy gets up and leaves. I did this with a plumber also. Say I had a fila, could I do this? Based on what I have read, and heard from owners, the likelihood is no. Say the plumber decided to wack me over the head with a wrench. And I had a fila in another room locked up because I couldn't trust him with strangers coming into the house. What good is it for me to have that dog for protection? Say I had Remi PP trained and he is on his place mat and the plumber wacks me....Remi would be in the fight in a second. 

If someone wants a farm guardian, property guardian, junk yard dog, etc, the fila might be a good candidate. If you want a dog to protect you, the dog has to be trustworthy in all situations and be stable enough to go places with you. It has everything to do with your lifestyle I guess. I will take a well trained, solid nerve, balanced anything (GSD, Mal, pit, rottie, doberman) over a fila if I wanted a dog to protect me. Of course, I like the bumper sticker "forget the dog, be aware of the owner" and I live by it >


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> It's a dog...if you don't feel you can handle the responsibility of owning one, don't own it.


"It's a dog" denotes nothing special when the reality is that some breeds are just plain, inherently dangerous. Stating "it's a dog" sends out an unrealistic and dangerous message as if the breed requires no more than a pet Beagle.



eddie1976E said:


> . I got a quote for new windows. The guy shows up, I place Remi on his place, the guy is in my house for 30 minutes. He walks around, measures, etc. Remi doesn't move. Guy gets up and leaves. I did this with a plumber also. Say I had a fila, could I do this? Based on what I have read, and heard from owners, the likelihood is no. Say the plumber decided to wack me over the head with a wrench. And I had a fila in another room locked up because I couldn't trust him with strangers coming into the house. What good is it for me to have that dog for protection?


There is no way I would trust some of my dogs to stay in "place" while a stranger wandered the home or property. I know I am not alone with this. I know many that would not / could not trust their serious WL GSDs not to bite in such a situation. I know of somebody whose dog broke place and attacked a visiting family member when the dog felt that the rowdy visitor was a threat to the family. Thankfully, due to quick action by the owner, there was minimal damage and the family member opted not to sue. 

If you think about it, if you trust your dog not to break place, then what good is he if the plumber attacked you? After all, if he were trained through distractions, he should not break place, and if personal protection trained, in most cases, he should not attack without your command. How does that help you as the plumber strikes you and renders you incapable of speech, just sayin'. Then you might say, well the dog was trained to break place and attack if he saw the owner being accosted or attacked. How would the dog distinguish between a plumber hitting the owner with a pipe wrench vs the plumber swinging it around near the owner as he talked with his hands? Sounds like a lawsuit in the making.

On the other hand, if I mistrusted any contractor to that point, I would simply leash my dog, warn the contractors about the dog, and then just let them do their work.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

fair enough Eddie but a judge would... be in the dogs space, as well as touching the dog. I was a non threatening dog savvy visitor with respect for the dog, owner and it's training. if I was a guy with clanky tools rummaging around making trips in and out... surely she (all of his dogs) would have been put away. she was not purchased, to my knowledge, to protect against the plumber. I also don't believe anyone attempted to approach him while walking when or where he did with 2 dogos also in tow.

we have a different breed because we have different needs and preferences. I don't need 3 mastiffs to guard my property. if put in that position I'd probably still opt for a shepherd and argue that to a bystander they serve the same function. but, everyone doesn't like or want a shepherd.

all of that said - there are ridgebacks with no ridge and beaucerons with no dewclaws, GSD who don't hit every bullet of the breed description (mine don't) yet people still enjoy them and the qualities they do have. other breeds have particular attack styles and never attack...

my point was simply in reference mainly to the dogs quality of life - she did not strike me as this monster that remained on guard 26hrs a day who's only quality was a face grabbing attack.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> Sounds like a nice dog, but maybe one that would not be considered a good representation of the standard. When the standard says a judge shouldn't touch the dog for fear of a bite and if the dog bites, it is just a confirmation of the dogs correct breeding, then to me, the dog you saw is not true to the breed.



The breed standard of Fila does not Necessarily require a Filla to attack a stranger/show judge approaching him or her. The standard only says that IF a Fila shows aggression to an approaching stranger, then that behavior is not a disqualifying fault. 

Also a fila is expected to display is a expected to display distrust and dislike for unknown people. Which the dog in question did demonstrate. 

And the breeders also say that with extensive socialization up to 6 to 12 month you can have good dog that is reserved, yet not out of control

And finally no breed deserves to labelled as a "junkyard dog".

My home may not be the right place for a fila or even for a working line Rott or Mallinois or Dobe. That does not mean these breeds are bad. They are not right for me.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> But that is an accurate description of their attack style. According to actual breeders of the dogs.
> 
> It seems to be as instinctive as a border collie 'eyeing' the herd. Or a Australian cattle dog nipping heels. Or a a pit bull 'lock jaw' and shake.


That's an accurate description according to who? You saw it on a breeder's website? I can't even begin to recount how many times I've seen overblown, exaggerated garbage posted on breeder's websites...go out there and meet breeders or owners of the dog and see how it is for yourself.

Make your own judgments instead of relying on the internet "expertise" that is so often prevalent on these types of threads.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> "It's a dog" denotes nothing special when the reality is that some breeds are just plain, inherently dangerous. Stating "it's a dog" sends out an unrealistic and dangerous message as if the breed requires no more than a pet Beagle.


This is crazy we are even having this conversation...it is a dog! It's not a wolf. It's not a bear. It's not a feral, wild animal....it's a domesticated dog! You seem to be implying that because it doesn't act and behave in the same exact manner that you are used to seeing other dogs act, that it must be something far more than a dog. Are you going to tell me that a MWD Malinois or a hog-hunting Dogo Argentino are also "not dogs" because of how drastically different their temperaments are from the average beagle? There are many different breeds of dog, each with their own unique traits and temperaments, but at the end of the day a dog is a dog. It doesn't mean that they're all suitable for family/pet ownership, but that's a truism that should go without saying.


I realize now that having mature and thoughtful discussion on anything other than a GSD, or a Malinois, is a bridge too far for many in this crowd. Every time someone brings up a question on a different type of dog, there seems to be a barrage of criticisms and degrading remarks....often times from people, who in all likelihood, have no real experience with the dog in question. But I guess that's the beauty of the internet and google searches...everyone's an expert on everything nowadays.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> There are many different breeds of dog, each with their own unique traits and temperaments, but at the end of the day a dog is a dog. It doesn't mean that they're all suitable for family/pet ownership, but that's a truism that should go without saying.


Your comment contradicts itself. If at the end of the day, a dog is just a dog, then there would be no need for dog breeds and they all would be suitable for family or pet ownership.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your comment contradicts itself. If at the end of the day, a dog is just a dog, then there would be no need for dog breeds and they all would be suitable for family or pet ownership.


If you read it in full, my statement is illustrating that despite the drastic differences among the various breeds, we still consider them all to be dogs. They're all canines that have been bred by humans for use by humans, in one fashion or another.

A Porsche 911 is drastically different from a Honda Accord; they're not even in the same ballpark in terms of performance and purpose. Are you going to tell me that I'd be wrong to classify them both as "cars?"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> If you read it in full, my statement is illustrating that despite the drastic differences among the various breeds, we still consider them all to be dogs. They're all canines that have been bred by humans for use by humans, in one fashion or another.
> 
> A Porsche 911 is drastically different from a Honda Accord; they're not even in the same ballpark in terms of performance and purpose. Are you going to tell me that I'd be wrong to classify them both as "cars?"


When you mention "just cars", for most people, Chevys, Fords, and Nissans come to mind, not Porsches or Lamborghinis. Yes they are also cars, but at the end of the day, they are not "just cars". 

Your message comes across as no different than that of irresponsible shelters and rescues that misrepresent aggressive or dangerous breeds as no different from any other breed, a dog is a dog. That message has gotten a lot of people and pets mauled, maimed and even killed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> That's an accurate description according to who? You saw it on a breeder's website? I can't even begin to recount how many times I've seen overblown, exaggerated garbage posted on breeder's websites...go out there and meet breeders or owners of the dog and see how it is for yourself.
> 
> Make your own judgments instead of relying on the internet "expertise" that is so often prevalent on these types of threads.


It is accurate according to the BREED STANDARD.



> At temperament tests, obligatory for dogs over one year old at shows,* the Fila attack must be in an ascending diagonal*, in front of handler and without showing dependence from him.


Fila Brasileiro Breed Standards

If a dog were to attack on an ascending diagonal to a person what part of the body are they targeting?

I have nothing against the dogs. I am a pit bull fancier myself. However there is a very very very small percentage of the population I trust to have a dog like this. I feel the same about pits. I would totally support legislation that keeps these out of the hands of JQP.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> It is accurate according to the BREED STANDARD.
> 
> 
> Fila Brasileiro Breed Standards
> ...


Go meet a breeder or owner in person and stop regurgitating internet trivia as if that is somehow a sufficient replacement for first-hand experience.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> When you mention "just cars", for most people, Chevys, Fords, and Nissans come to mind, not Porsches or Lamborghinis. Yes they are also cars, but at the end of the day, they are not "just cars".


Where did I say "just cars?"

I'm a car guy and I appreciate the massive discrepancies in performance, price tags and purpose between the various cars. A Porsche may offer a completely different experience from what a no-frills Chevy offers, but if it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and works like a car, I'm inclined to call it a car. The same applies for dogs; I can appreciate the drastic or even subtle differences between the breeds, but there are some universal characteristics that they all share in the general sense...if that wasn't the case, we never would've come up with the collective term of "dogs" in the first place.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your message comes across as no different than that of irresponsible shelters and rescues that misrepresent aggressive or dangerous breeds as no different from any other breed, a dog is a dog. That message has gotten a lot of people and pets mauled, maimed and even killed.


Firstly, you too need to take it easy. You think I'm worthy of blame for simply having a different opinion from you? 

Secondly, I've never blamed any particular breed and most certainly not the rescue organizations who are trying to find humane solutions to those problems. I blame the owners and breeders who either through negligence or criminal intent, turn the dogs into poorly socialized, and in some cases, vicious animals. The pit bull problem, which is so often used by people with your viewpoint, has nothing to do with the breed itself, but rather with the people who breed and use them for dogfights or negligent BYB's who want to sell a junkyard dog for a few $'s. There are plenty of pitbulls who are doing just fine either as pets or as working dogs (they seem to be popular for hog hunting); it's all a matter of matching the right dog with the right environment.

And thirdly, to my knowledge this isn't a widespread problem with the Fila. For as much naysaying and criticism that you and others have levied against the Fila, I just don't see any substance to back it up. They aren't wrecking households left and right and there aren't rescue groups trying to rehome them with unwitting and naive families....at least not to the degree that you've implied. It seems that the only real basis for your view on the Fila are anecdotal experiences of others relayed over the internet. 

And no, I'm not saying that a Fila is a gentle giant that would be suitable for the average household. I'm saying that like a lot of other dogs with working heritages, each prospective owner needs to analyze the pro's and con's of owning a Fila and reach an educated conclusion on whether or not owning one is feasible.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Saying that Filas are just a dog really bothers me. 

The difference is between literal and implied meaning. Yes literally they are a dog, but the implication of the word "dog" to the vast majority of the population conjures up images of the big goofy tennis ball loving lab, the prissy poodle, the skate boarding bull dog, the taco loving chihuahua. 

I said jokingly up the thread I didn't have a dog in this fight because I am a dirty rotten pit bull lover... and that is true. I have spent thousands of dollars and man hours involved in pit rescue. I have shared my home with pits and pit mixes for well over 15 years. I love the breed. I think they are the bees knees! 

But I will be one of the first to say they aren't just a dog.

There is a reason they top the statistics in regards to human and pet deaths. Actually a multitude of reasons - a prevalent one though is the "it's just a dog mantra". 

That attitude has directly harmed the pit bull breed / type. People are unrealistic about the inherent drives of these dogs and they mismanage them leading to tragedy all too often. Which ends up with legislation being passed that leads to the death of many dogs.

Some breeds have been selected for traits that do make them inherently dangerous in modern society - high defensive and prey drives. JQP often forgets that dogs are predators. When the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) drives and thresholds are in place a dog is every bit as dangerous as a wolf, tiger or bear. They've got the right equipment after all. But thats just not the public perception. Its easier to say that the "dangerous" / more intense breeds are more than just a dog than it is to change the cultural idea of what a dog is.

Personally, I've never been too offended by the posters here who dislike my other breed. It's been an agree to disagree type of thing.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> Go meet a breeder or owner in person and stop regurgitating internet trivia as if that is somehow a sufficient replacement for first-hand experience.


I find the BREED STANDARD to be sufficient in providing information as to the general disposition of a breed. 

I mean, that is the purpose of having a standard after all...


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Saying that Filas are just a dog really bothers me.


Well if you don't like the inclusion of the word "just," go talk to Mineareworkinglines, because he is the one who introduced that word.



voodoolamb said:


> There is a reason they top the statistics in regards to human and pet deaths. Actually a multitude of reasons - a prevalent one though is the "it's just a dog mantra".
> 
> That attitude has directly harmed the pit bull breed / type. People are unrealistic about the inherent drives of these dogs and they mismanage them leading to tragedy all too often.
> 
> Some breeds have been selected for traits that do make them inherently dangerous in modern society - high defensive and prey drives. JQP often forgets that dogs are predators. When the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) drives and thresholds are in place a dog is every bit as dangerous as a wolf, tiger or bear. They've got the right equipment after all. But thats just not the public perception. Its easier to say that the "dangerous" / more intense breeds are more than just a dog to change the cultural idea of what a dog is.


Again, what is the common theme here? These dogs are products of *human *actions, or inaction in some cases. If a certain breed or line turns into a human-aggressive, overly reactive biting machine, it's because* we, as humans*, let it happen, either on purpose or through negligence. As it stands, the dreaded pitbull has been demonized and even outlawed in many communities because of poor management and breeding *by **humans*. And yet those same drives and temperaments in the pitbull, which you seem to think are too dangerous for the modern world, are put to good use in hunting quarry, pulling competitions and even credible protection work. 

Like I said earlier, it's all a matter of matching the right dog with the right environment. If you don't think you can handle owning and training a Fila, *don't get a Fila*. It's as simple as that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Where did I say "just cars?"
> 
> I'm a car guy and I appreciate the massive discrepancies in performance, price tags and purpose between the various cars. A Porsche may offer a completely different experience from what a no-frills Chevy offers, but if it looks like a car, sounds like a car, and works like a car, I'm inclined to call it a car. The same applies for dogs; I can appreciate the drastic or even subtle differences between the breeds, but there are some universal characteristics that they all share in the general sense...if that wasn't the case, we never would've come up with the collective term of "dogs" in the first place.
> 
> ...


Once again your statement contradicts your dog is a dog philosophy.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I find the BREED STANDARD to be sufficient in providing information as to the general disposition of a breed.
> 
> I mean, that is the purpose of having a standard after all...


Lol...all right. Well I guess you know all there is to know about the Fila. I don't see any point then in you going and meeting one in person. You seem to have it all figured out. The Fila is a dangerous, face-attacking dog....case closed. 

Gotta love that internet! I mean at this rate, you'll be an expert on just about every single breed without even leaving your desk. :wink2:


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, you said a dog is a dog and I should have said a car is a car. Go get a Lamborghini and come back and let us know if your insurance company thinks a car is a car.


Sigh...Okay, I'm done with this bit of the conversation. Apparently despite having passenger compartments, axles, gearing, an internal combustion engine, drive shafts, wheels, and a bunch of other common components, some cars just aren't cars.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who posted that you blamed any breed or rescue organization for anything? Certainly not me.


I'm not saying that you did. I'm saying that I disagree with your view that shelters and rescue groups are to blame for the pitbull issue, as per what you stated in a previous post.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Up until this point, I gave you more credit for being a bit more dog savvy. Seriously? Poor socialization can result in viciousness? You have not seen poorly socialized and extremely neglected and abused dogs be rescued from horrific circumstances and come out all kisses and wagging tails for their rescuers? That is called genetics and not all dogs are created equal.


You're muddying the waters here. I never said that genetics don't at some level influence how a dog acts around people or other dogs. But it is beyond debate at this point that dogs with poor socialization are more likely to bite or negatively react to humans, either out of fear or some perceived threat/transgression.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> The Pit Bull problem has nothing to do with being game bred, i.e., to fight to the finish without regard to self preservation? Or its inherent hold and grip bite style? Or other genetic traits?
> 
> The Pit Bull is purposebred to fight and kill other animals. You can eliminate every dog fighter on this planet, but that still does not change the purpose for which the breed was created. To breed these inherent qualities out of a Pit Bull would leave one with nothing but an empty shell of a Pit Bull not much different than somebody that breeds German Shepherds which have Golden Retriever temperaments.
> 
> ...


Yes pitbulls that have been bred to dog-fight will behave differently from other dogs or even other pitbulls. No question about that. And in the wrong hands, they can lead to problems. But I think you yourself summed it up best with your statement:


> There is nothing wrong with a good gamebred Pit Bull in the hands of somebody that knows what they have.


As long as a dog is in the right hands, living in the right environment, it can still serve a useful purpose without causing problems. This has been my main point about the Fila, so it seems that you and I are starting to find at least some common ground here.

As for all that junk on how hog-hunting is a "blood sport," I really could care less about your view on that. It's a traditional form of hunting hogs and other pest animals. Wolves chase down and tear open deer and elk when they're too exhausted to move but still alive. I don't subscribe to this idea that there is some inherent right or wrong to that...it's simply how nature works. In the case of hog-hunting, we've simply found a way to make a dog's nature work to our advantage in attaining food.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> The only thing I have said against the Fila is that a dog is not a dog, i.e., breed matters.


Well I have a sneaking suspicion that your true feelings on the Fila go well beyond that simple statement, as indicated by the likes you've given out on this thread.

And I've never said that breed doesn't matter; quite to the contrary actually, I've said that people need to do some self-analysis when selecting a breed. Use your common sense and pick a dog that makes sense for you; this is a rule of thumb that should be applied when considering just about any dog.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Well if you don't like the inclusion of the word "just," go talk to Mineareworkinglines, because he is the one who introduced that word.


My issue isn't with the inclusion of the word "just".

It's the way you used "it's a dog" in your original statement. The context was an air of incredulity that people voiced concern as to the possible dangers that Filas pose. 



> Again, what is the common theme here? These dogs are products of *human *actions, or inaction in some cases. If a certain breed or line turns into a human-aggressive, overly reactive biting machine, it's because* we, as humans*, let it happen, either on purpose or through negligence. As it stands, the dreaded pitbull has been demonized and even outlawed in many communities because of poor management and breeding *by **humans*. And yet those same drives and temperaments in the pitbull, which you seem to think are too dangerous for the modern world, are put to good use in hunting quarry, pulling competitions and even credible protection work.
> 
> Like I said earlier, it's all a matter of matching the right dog with the right environment. If you don't think you can handle owning and training a Fila, *don't get a Fila*. It's as simple as that.


As *humans we live in a society *And as such the *decisions we make effect others* The issue isn't as simple as if I can't handle a Fila don't get one. The issue is Joe schmoo down the street who can't handle a strong, powerful, independent dog gets one anyways.

Pits ARE inherently dangerous - especially when owned by the general public. They have been selected to be incredibly high drive with genetic aggression. They have full on prey drive. Stalk. Chase. Kill. Consume. Most other breeds have modified prey drives that remove the 'kill' part. Farmers don't want collies killing the sheep that they herd and hunters don't want their labs to eat the duck they bring in. Herding and retrieving are prey based behaviors. A pits desire to fight is also prey based - but they also want to kill. They've also been selected for a physique that makes them formidable. 

And this is coming from someone who loves and owns them! Heck I let my last one sleep in my bed every night for 12 years.

But here is the thing. If every owner of pit bulls out there managed their dogs the way I managed my pits, then pit bulls would NOT be a statstical problem. My dogs were on lock down, muzzled when needed, and trained to a higher level of obedience than your average pet. Because I respect what they are capable of. But most pit bull owners don't. They treatbthem as a regular dog and that's why they are involved in so many attacks.

That is NOT to say they don't have other good qualities. But PROTECTION is not one of them. They have enough drive to make for good sports dogs but anyone pushing a pit bull as a credible PPD makes me raise my eye brows. Pit bulls lack the intelligence and discernment needed to make a SAFE protection dog. They just haven't been bred to have those qualities. Its not in their nature. A well bred GSD is capable of discerning a true threat.

The same issue i have with pits as PPDs is what gives me pause about the Filas: Their apparent lack of discernment. They see all strangers as a threat. Even judges at a show. 

I love dogs. I just have zero faith in the capabilities of the general public to manage the higher drive ones.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> I'm not saying that you did. I'm saying that I disagree with your view that shelters and rescue groups are to blame for the pitbull issue, as per what you stated in a previous post.
> 
> Shelters are to blame for the Pit Bull problem for promoting the philosophy that at the end of the day, it is just a dog. Details matter.
> 
> ...


If you have to do self analysis when selecting a breed, then at the end of the day, individual breeds are not just dogs.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

I stated this thread. Never expected this thread to become such a fiercely debated topic.

Actually Fila has two personalities: 1. Extreme aversion for strangers. 
2. Fiercely loyal and Docile with his own family, which is reason for an old Brazilian proverb
"Faithful as a Fila dog"

The 1st character means this is not a dog for an average, inexperienced house hold, where lot of people come and there are no proper space to confine a large dog like fila.

However like any canine it bonds closely with its pack/family, thrives on love and affection of the family, early socialization, should not be left alone for long hours alone etc. In this sense its requirements are also similar to many other large dogs. So yes its very much a dog for a family that owns him or her.

But for its natural aversion for strangers and size, very serious introspection must be made by prospective owners and breeders must also carefully interview and choose the homes where they place the puppy.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you have to do self analysis when selecting a breed, then at the end of the day, individual breeds are not just dogs.





voodoolamb said:


> My issue isn't with the inclusion of the word "just".
> 
> It's the way you used "it's a dog" in your original statement. The context was an air of incredulity that people voiced concern as to the possible dangers that Filas pose.


The Fila is a dog. I made that statement to counter the implications made by some here that the Fila is some disproportionately dangerous, ticking time-bomb that will attack anything and everything in sight that isn't its owner. I've no doubt that owning a Fila requires a lot more responsibility and experience than say owning a Golden Retriever, but the same can be said for a lot of breeds, including GSD's of working heritages. The fear-mongering and antagonism directed at this breed is totally unwarranted, especially considering how few documented incidents there are of a Fila injuring a human.

If you don't think you have the need or capability to own a Fila, don't own one! It's that simple. Just because you can't or won't own the breed, doesn't preclude others from owning and raising one in a healthy, problem-free environment. The earlier example of the game-bred pitbull being raised in the right or wrong hands illustrates this concept perfectly.

That said, I really don't see any point in continuing this conversation. Both of you, and a few other posters, should go and meet a Fila owner/breeder in person rather than rely on breeder websites and anecdotal experience. 

This whole thread is an example of internet hysteria at its finest....


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
> 
> Simple Definition of blood sport
> : a sport (such as hunting) in which birds or animals are killed
> ...


So when I follow the literal logic of saying a dog is a dog, you take issue. But then you have no problem with using the literal, antiquated definition of bloodsport.

Most people that I know, even those who don't hunt, don't consider hunting to be a bloodsport. There is a difference between killing for the sake of killing and killing to attain food or manage wildlife. Is a wildlife control officer killing a rabid coyote "bloodsport?" How about a hunter killing a deer to get his family meat for the winter. Is a wolf chewing off the hind quarters of a still-breathing elk "bloodsport?" The methods some natural predators use to take down their quarry are far more bloody and painful than anything us humans do. Should we call that "bloodsport?"

I hear this rhetoric frequently from certain fringe animal-rights groups but can never take them seriously. The fact is most people in this country understand why hunting is allowed and how it has been inherent to humanity's existence, and still is. If you don't like it then stop eating meat and go join HSUS or PETA.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> The Fila is a dog. I made that statement to counter the implications made by some here that the Fila is some disproportionately dangerous, ticking time-bomb that will attack anything and everything in sight that isn't its owner. I've no doubt that owning a Fila requires a lot more responsibility and experience than say owning a Golden Retriever, but the same can be said for a lot of breeds, including GSD's of working heritages. The fear-mongering and antagonism directed at this breed is totally unwarranted, especially considering how few documented incidents there are of a Fila injuring a human.
> 
> If you have no doubt that owning a Fila requires a lot more responsibility and experience than a Golden Retriever, then stop contradicting yourself by saying at the end of the day a dog is a dog. Obviously from what you have just posted, you already understand that but somehow can't bring yourself to acknowledge it. To imply that a Fila is a dog no different than a Golden is reckless and irresponsible.
> 
> ...


Why should I meet a Fila? You are the one demonstrating internet hysteria by accusing others of things they have not said, or implied. I have no issues with Filas. I do have an issue with the way you present them as just another nice doggie like any other, but you keep saying you agree with me that they are not as you post comments that keep disagreeing with your own comments. :crazy:

I do agree that this thread should be closed about now. It is no secret that one can't make sense out of nonsense and that is where this thread is right now. Either the Fila is a dog that most likely needs special handling or it is just a dog like a Beagle or a Golden Retriever suitable for the average novice. You can't have it both ways.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> So when I follow the literal logic of saying a dog is a dog, you take issue. But then you have no problem with using the literal, antiquated definition of bloodsport.
> 
> Most people that I know, even those who don't hunt, don't consider hunting to be a bloodsport. There is a difference between killing for the sake of killing and killing to attain food or manage wildlife. Is a wildlife control officer killing a rabid coyote "bloodsport?" How about a hunter killing a deer to get his family meat for the winter. Is a wolf chewing off the hind quarters of a still-breathing elk "bloodsport?" The methods some natural predators use to take down their quarry are far more bloody and painful than anything us humans do. Should we call that "bloodsport?"
> 
> I hear this rhetoric frequently from certain fringe animal-rights groups but can never take them seriously. The fact is most people in this country understand why hunting is allowed and how it has been inherent to humanity's existence, and still is. If you don't like it then stop eating meat and go join HSUS or PETA.


You are on a dog forum. There are many newbies and lurkers that come here to learn and more will come in the future. To imply that a Fila is no different than any other dog is reckless and irresponsible to those readers.

When I posted the definition of bloodsports, I did so with simplicity in mind. Let me spell it out that although hunting by gun and hunting by dogs are both technically bloodsports, to speak of both as if they were the same is not correct or accurate, as one is carried out with humanity as a forethought focusing on a quick and painless death for the animal while the other is practiced without regard to cruelty resulting in a long, slow, torturous, pain and fear filled death of the animal. So yes, bloodsports in its purest sense* should come with a qualifier* just like using the term dog as both encompass aspects that are at odds.

Why would you compare a hunter that humanely kills a deer by a gun or a bow and arrow with the slow and torturous slaughter of a hog hunted by dogs? Why would you compare man to natural predators, as if man were a wild animal that did not have humane weapons to accomplish the same? 

Where did I say that I am against hunting or its purpose? I clearly stated their is no need for cruelty and inhumanity in the practice. That's all.

It is getting to the point where your only arguments are false assumptions about another's intentions or putting words into the mouth of another that were never said. It is getting tiresome defending myself against things I never stated.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why should I meet a Fila? You are the one demonstrating internet hysteria by accusing others of things they have not said, or implied. I have no issues with Filas. I do have an issue with the way you present them as just another nice doggie like any other, but you keep saying you agree with me that they are not as you post comments that keep disagreeing with your own comments.


You may not have made those implications but you were showing support for those that did...so there is no need to pretend you're neutral on this topic...:wink2:

And I never said that the Fila is "just a dog" or "another nice doggie." Again you're putting words in my mouth. I said a dog is a dog. Train it. Socialize it. Feed and take care of it. Give it an appropriate outlet for its drives and energy. If you can’t safely and effectively perform those basic functions for a large, protective LGD-style of dog, then pick another breed. 

Lol…I’m stating some fairly basic concepts here that apply to pretty much all dogs. You’re getting too wrapped up in the semantics, or you just like to “win” every argument.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> You may not have made those implications but you were showing support for those that did...so there is no need to pretend you're neutral on this topic...:wink2:
> 
> I never once supported a comment that reflected negatively on a Fila. I did support comments that reflected on the breed standard and expected behavior as well as comments that did not support your at the end of the day a Fila is just a dog post. I don't need to pretend that I did not support something I did not support.
> 
> ...


Your concepts may be basic to you, but obviously other experienced people have differing opinions and for some reason you take exception to that. Win what? At the end of the day the same facts will stand.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You are on a dog forum. There are many newbies and lurkers that come here to learn and more will come in the future. To imply that a Fila is no different than any other dog is reckless and irresponsible to those readers.
> 
> When I posted the definition of bloodsports, I did so with simplicity in mind. Let me spell it out that although hunting by gun and hunting by dogs are both technically bloodsports, to speak of both as if they were the same is not correct or accurate, as one is carried out with humanity as a forethought focusing on a quick and painless death for the animal while the other is practiced without regard to cruelty resulting in a long, slow, torturous, pain and fear filled death of the animal. So yes, bloodsports in its purest sense* should come with a qualifier* just like using the term dog as both encompass aspects that are at odds.
> 
> Why would you compare a hunter that humanely kills a deer by a gun or a bow and arrow with the slow and torturous slaughter of a hog hunted by dogs? Why would you compare man to natural predators, as if man were a wild animal that did not have humane weapons to accomplish the same?



You need to get out of your bubble and go try a hog hunt, without dogs that is. Or perhaps you just need to go on a hunt period, since it sounds like you've never been. Hunters use dogs to hunt hogs across the globe because it is one of the more effective ways to hunt them in the swampy and vegetated terrain they inhabit. If you take single shots at hogs, which believe it or not are very wary prey, the rest of the sounder disperses, breeds with other sounders and the problem spreads. Dogs are one means of rounding up and catching a good many hogs all at once. And that method is often used in coordination with other efforts (like trapping, aerial hunting, fences, ect.).

I notice too that you refuse to even acknowledge my comment on how natural predators hunt. The average hog gets bayed and held down by a few dogs while a hunter comes up and dispatches it with a knife to the heart...the hog is usually dead within seconds of the hunter's knife stroke. While there are some sadistic idiots out there, as there are everywhere, most hog hunters aren't looking to prolong the hog's chase and death, both for the safety of their dogs and themselves and the quality of the meat...believe it or not there is a practical incentive to get relatively quick and humane kills. I encourage you to go watch some real footage of how wolves hunt elk in the western part of North America...not some PG-rated, nicely edited show. Go watch real footage and see how they'll eat their prey while it is still alive and struggling...and then come back to me and tell me how "inhumane" hog hunting is by comparison. Moreover, I don't see how you can criticize a dog with hunting instincts for doing what comes naturally to it while ignoring a wild wolf for doing the same exact thing. They're both doing what comes naturally to them. 

Mankind is a natural predator, and has been ever since we lived in caves. The only difference between us and other predators is that we learned to employ tools and advanced methods, including hunting dogs, to get our quarry. In fact, hunting is one of the main reasons we domesticated dogs in the first place. There are issues of fair chase and unethical practices in the modern hunting culture, but that will differ from area to area. And it really isn't fair to criticize a hunting method simply because it seems unfair or uncommon from your perspective.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Where did I say that I am against hunting or its purpose? I clearly stated their is no need for cruelty and inhumanity in the practice. That's all.
> 
> It is getting to the point where your only arguments are false assumptions about another's intentions or putting words into the mouth of another that were never said. It is getting tiresome defending myself against things I never stated.


You said that by definition, hunting should be considered a "bloodsport." Such a view is not at all aligned with how must Americans view hunting. And quite honestly, nowadays when you say "bloodsport" cockfighting or dogfighting is what comes to mind, not hunting. So when you say something like that, it strongly suggests you have a negative view of hunting.

If you wanted to convey a more nuanced view of hunting, then you should have taken the time to explain yourself in greater detail. Otherwise, making such broad generalizations will encourage people to question and criticize your remarks....kind of like what you did with me earlier.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have only had 2 experiences with Fila. Both at a rare breed dog show. 

The first, we were watching a class and heard "Fila coming through" and everyone parted like Red Sea. Seriously the entire aisle cleared in seconds and a handler comes through with a leash being used as a muzzle on the dog as it was ushered through. Everyone just got out of the way, once it passed everything went back to normal. It was weird. 

Second, at the same show, I watching a class again and felt a dog jump on me, on my side. I turned and was face to face with a dog. I looked at the handler and asked "what breed?" To which he replied, it's a Fila puppy. This dog was HUGE already. But was friendly. I froze a bit when he told me, but he was unconcerned, aside from being a bit embarrassed that the dog jumped on me. 

I put this breed in the same mental category as a Boerbel. Fine in the right hands. If understood and handled properly, fine. But dangerous in the wrong hands. 

Neither are a breed I would own. Just don't interest me at all to be honest. I don't live in an area that would require or be conducive to owning one of them. Nor am I a fan in general of Molosser type dogs. 

They are dogs. They have been bred for specific purposes and in the right hands, the I am sure they have wonderful lives and their owners love their dogs. It just won't be my hands. 

But I also feel the same way about many breeds. Chihuahuas, border collies, beagles, coonhounds, huskies, Malinois. I don't like their temperaments or drives and hence, don't want one. Except Border Collies. I love them. I am an innappropriate home for one. So I admire from afar. 

In the end, yes they are dogs. Just like every breed. Is this a breed of dog that requires a very specific environment and training. Yup. This is not a dog breed that is going to thrive in almost every situation. It's not a golden or a lab. They are toyotas, this is a Mack truck with wheel spikes. LOL.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> You need to get out of your bubble and go try a hog hunt, without dogs that is. Or perhaps you just need to go on a hunt period, since it sounds like you've never been. Hunters use dogs to hunt hogs across the globe because it is one of the more effective ways to hunt them in the swampy and vegetated terrain they inhabit. If you take single shots at hogs, which believe it or not are very wary prey, the rest of the sounder disperses, breeds with other sounders and the problem spreads. Dogs are one means of rounding up and catching a good many hogs all at once. And that method is often used in coordination with other efforts (like trapping, aerial hunting, fences, ect.).
> 
> Maybe you ought to come out of your bubble and get your toenails painted. Let me know when you do and perhaps then you might get me to attend a hunt.
> 
> ...


But once more, I did not make any broad generalizations, Merriam Webster did, so nobody is criticizing or questioning my remarks. They are questioning why others feel a need to put words into somebody else's mouth, and then arguing with the accused about things that were never said.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Tezpur, as you said, very serious introspection must be made by prospective owners and breeders must also carefully interview and choose the homes where they place the puppy. Sadly, that isn't usually the case. I was just playing on the internet and found this ad listed in a town not far from me. I counted 13 puppies in this litter. I doubt most of the new owners will have any idea of what they're getting into.


_I have a litter of Fila Mastiff puppies that need their forever home. They are 9 weeks old, weaned, dewormed and had their first set of shots. They each come with a detailed health record from our local vet. The parents are registered but due to issues with the breeder we have yet to receive papers; so only asking for rehoming fee of $500. I have fawn colored as well as different shades of brindle. Inlcuding some general pics of the puppies and of the parents. Contact me for additional pictures. These are wonderful family dogs that require a lot of work but they're worth it. Very protective but not agressive unless their family is being threatened. Don't hesitate to text with any additional questions and thanks!_


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Deb said:


> Tezpur, as you said, very serious introspection must be made by prospective owners and breeders must also carefully interview and choose the homes where they place the puppy. Sadly, that isn't usually the case. I was just playing on the internet and found this ad listed in a town not far from me. I counted 13 puppies in this litter. I doubt most of the new owners will have any idea of what they're getting into.
> 
> 
> _I have a litter of Fila Mastiff puppies that need their forever home. They are 9 weeks old, weaned, dewormed and had their first set of shots. They each come with a detailed health record from our local vet. The parents are registered but due to issues with the breeder we have yet to receive papers; so only asking for rehoming fee of $500. I have fawn colored as well as different shades of brindle. Inlcuding some general pics of the puppies and of the parents. Contact me for additional pictures. These are wonderful family dogs that require a lot of work but they're worth it. Very protective but not agressive unless their family is being threatened. Don't hesitate to text with any additional questions and thanks!_


And that is exactly what concerns me. I've seen other fila litters advertised on craigslist. This is not the way to keep the dogs in the hands of serious fanciers of the breed. 

That is what went wrong with pits.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> And that is exactly what concerns me. I've seen other fila litters advertised on craigslist. This is not the way to keep the dogs in the hands of serious fanciers of the breed.
> 
> That is what went wrong with pits.


Dogs that are potentially dangerous and affordable. Wonderful...


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Dear Deb, The problem are we the humans. Now with the advent of internet based marketing dogs are getting traded like soft toys in most parts of the world. We need serious legislation to prohibit this dog trading over olx, or quikr or similar sites which are a platform to sell anything.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

TEZPUR1976 said:


> Dear Deb, The problem are we the humans. Now with the advent of internet based marketing dogs are getting traded like soft toys in most parts of the world. We need serious legislation to prohibit this dog trading over olx, or quikr or similar sites which are a platform to sell anything.



True, but before the internet they could all be found in newspapers or tacked up on bulletin boards at stores. I think the only real difference now is you can find almost anything you want on the internet and before you were limited to what was more local.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I was at a social gathering last night and at our table was a vet that I met for the first time. Conversation turned to dogs and the vet mentioned that yesterday was the first time she had encountered a Brazilian mastiff. Someone had gotten a puppy from CA and they had 24 hours to get it vet checked. She wanted to know if anyone knew anything about them.

I filled in some facts about the fila brought up in this thread. I asked her what were the people like who had the fila puppy. Were they experienced dog people? She just raised her eyebrows and shook her head. Do you think they know how dangerous files are? I asked the vet, and she shook her head. I mentioned worry about now fila will be the new pitbull for the macho crowd. Cane Corso is the new pitbull at the present others at the table agreed. 

Yikes, if filas become "popular."


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Yikes. Here in Costa Rica, I have seen many many Pitt bulls, both owned by people as well as street dogs, and the current popular go-to breed appears to be the Cane Corso. Dear Lord. -especially because most ticos neither neuter nor keep their dogs confined in any way. Unless you count being tied to a tree.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Moriah said:


> .... I filled in some facts about the fila brought up in this thread. I asked her what were the people like who had the fila puppy. Were they experienced dog people? She just raised her eyebrows and shook her head. Do you think they know how dangerous files are? I asked the vet, and she shook her head. I mentioned worry about now fila will be the new pitbull for the macho crowd. Cane Corso is the new pitbull at the present others at the table agreed.
> 
> Yikes, if filas become "popular."


Thank you M. This is exactly one of the reasons why I start these kind of threads on dog breeds other than gsd. You see even an experienced Vet did not know much about Fila and you could help him or her out. The more we discuss, the more message will spread among dog loving community.0


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But once more, I did not make any broad generalizations, Merriam Webster did, so nobody is criticizing or questioning my remarks. They are questioning why others feel a need to put words into somebody else's mouth, and then arguing with the accused about things that were never said.


Well suffice it to say, I think your views on some of these topics are a product of thinking and living in a bubble. 

Mankind was historically not a vegetarian, despite your opinion on the matter. And BTW, being a vegetarian is different from being am omnivore. Man was, and still is, an omnivore as illustrated why we historically hunted for much of our food in addition to supplementing it with food from agriculture. Also, our stomachs are and digestive systems are not set up the same way as true herbivores. So your quite off the mark both historically and scientifically on that issue.

Using dogs to hunt hogs is a widely-used practice, despite what your friends tell you, both here in parts of North and South America and in other continents. And until you've actually gone hog-hunting, or hunting in general, I really don't see how you have any credibility to say whether or not it is effective. And, despite your refusal to acknowledge it, wild predators inflict far more pain and suffering on their prey than anything us humans do, with or without dogs. There is no concept of morality or a "humane" hunt on the part of wild animals, which stands in direct contrast to how most humans hunt, especially here in North America. So, in that sense, you're right that it is an apple to oranges comparison.

I agree (and have agreed from the beginning) that the Fila isn't for everyone, despite being a "dog." I think gsdar summed that issue up nicely. As he said, there are a lot of dogs, outside of the Fila, that he has no desire to own. Sound decision-making and self-assessment is key to determining whether or not it is a smart idea for someone to own a Fila....as they are for many other breeds of dog. That statement is pretty common-sense, but I suspect you're to wound up to agree with me on that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Well suffice it to say, I think your views on some of these topics are a product of thinking and living in a bubble.
> 
> My views on the subject or the views of others that you keep falsely accusing me of having?
> 
> ...


I am not here to agree with you or the false accusations about me that continually make in your comments.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> Using dogs to hunt hogs is a widely-used practice, despite what your friends tell you, both here in parts of North and South America and in other continents. And until you've actually gone hog-hunting, or hunting in general, I really don't see how you have any credibility to say whether or not it is effective. And, despite your refusal to acknowledge it, wild predators inflict far more pain and suffering on their prey than anything us humans do, with or without dogs. There is no concept of morality or a "humane" hunt on the part of wild animals, which stands in direct contrast to how most humans hunt, especially here in North America.


I actually have hunted and regularly slaughter animals myself. As in each week I'm killing something. Often animals I raised and named. 
And yes, I have been on a hog hunt that used dogs. 



> And, despite your refusal to acknowledge it, wild predators inflict far more pain and suffering on their prey than anything us humans do, with or without dogs.


This part here doesn't make any sense to me. Yes wild predators inflict more pain and suffering. But dogs are predators too. They inflict the same amount of pain and suffering. So when humans choose to use catch dogs that is exactly what they are doing. It can take a long time for the hunters to catch up with the pack and plenty of hunters let the dogs finish off the hogs instead of dispatching it themselves. 

What I find interesting is that penned hog - dog fights have been prosecuted under existing animal cruelty laws. Hog dog fights usually are far shorter in length then actual hunting of hogs. Yet the same thing happens they are bitten repeatedly, torn up and held down by a dog. 

I find the use of catch dogs cruel. Not just to the pig - the dogs themselves get torn up pretty bad too. There are other, more humane ways to kill hogs. Heck you can even use dogs - Bay dogs are effective at finding and cornering hogs. They just don't latch on. 

Besides that - the adrenaline makes the meat taste horrible. Personally, the people I know who eat wild game meat won't touch dog runned hogs. It does seem that the hunters who are using dogs are either in it for the sport or use it as hazing/extermination.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not here to agree with you or the false accusations about me that continually make in your comments.


Alright bud. Apparently you're not making any arguments so I can't really post any responses.

You've brought up how the definition of bloodsport includes hunting, but yet you don't personally consider hunting to be a bloodsport.

You've stated that some people think mankind is vegetarian in response to my comments about man's historical hunting practices, but you apparently don't share said beliefs.

I guess all of this is just you playing devil's advocate? Why not state what you actually think and believe instead of playing these silly games? Rhetorical on my part, as I suspect you're not really interested in making any argument at all except that you disagree with whatever I say. I'm glad this thread has gone the way it has...:grin2:



voodoolamb said:


> This part here doesn't make any sense to me. Yes wild predators inflict more pain and suffering. But dogs are predators too. They inflict the same amount of pain and suffering. So when humans choose to use catch dogs that is exactly what they are doing. It can take a long time for the hunters to catch up with the pack and plenty of hunters let the dogs finish off the hogs instead of dispatching it themselves.


This is absolute horse crap. Dogs, even catch dogs, don't tear the hog up and eat it alive. They hold it down until the hunter arrives and quickly dispatches it....that's a world of difference from a how a wolf or a grizzly takes down and devours still breathing prey.



voodoolamb said:


> What I find interesting is that penned hog - dog fights have been prosecuted under existing animal cruelty laws. Hog dog fights usually are far shorter in length then actual hunting of hogs. Yet the same thing happens they are bitten repeatedly, torn up and held down by a dog.
> 
> I find the use of catch dogs cruel. Not just to the pig - the dogs themselves get torn up pretty bad too. There are other, more humane ways to kill hogs. Heck you can even use dogs - Bay dogs are effective at finding and cornering hogs. They just don't latch on.
> 
> Besides that - the adrenaline makes the meat taste horrible. Personally, the people I know who eat wild game meat won't touch dog runned hogs. It does seem that the hunters who are using dogs are either in it for the sport or use it as hazing/extermination.


Spoken like someone who just doesn't hunt much. Again, people need to get their heads out of the sand and realize *hunting is one of the main reasons we domesticated dogs in the first place.* It is only a recent experiment where we've started to restrict or outright prohibit hunting with dogs, at least for certain species. And I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why a pack of wolves hunting an elk is cruel and inhumane while a pack of domesticated dogs hunting similarly in coordination with a hunter is somehow cruel. Why is one considered "natural" while the other is considered "inhumane?" If it's for purposes of food or population control, I don't see what people are getting upset about. And your friends are idiots; plenty of people eat the hogs harvested by dog-hunting crews...it's pretty much a regional cuisine in many of the southern states, Hawaii, and parts of South America, where hog overpopulation has become a widespread problem.

And hunting is different from animal baiting or fighting, which is illegal and has no inherent purpose other than entertainment. Most hunters who use dogs, whether it be for pigs or bears or whatever, have a very basic reason to keep their dogs alive and properly cared for: if the dog gets seriously injured or killed, they lose their ability to hunt or they have to buy another dog. I get that you probably watch PETA videos to "learn" about hunting dogs, but the reality is most hunters aren't looking to mistreat or lose their dogs. And to say that certain dogs "enjoy" hunting is an understatement....they live for it...it's just as much in their DNA as it is for wolves.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Alright bud. Apparently you're not making any arguments so I can't really post any responses.
> 
> You've brought up how the definition of bloodsport includes hunting, but yet you don't personally consider hunting to be a bloodsport.
> 
> ...


Actually I hate PETA. 

I hunted every white tail and Turkey season for well over 15 years. Stopping after career took me into urban living. Last weekend I slaughtered 25 birds for freezer camp. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. In a log cabin then we moved to a farm... I've literally killed literally thousands of animals. Mostly providing food for myself and my pets. Or to protect property. I've had to shoot stray dogs and I am a huge dog lover. 

My friends aren't idiots they apparently just have better taste buds then you. The difference between game that had a stressful death that took multiple shots or had to be downed by a knife after being pursued is a night and day difference. If we had a bad bag on a deer - the entire thing ended up as hamburger meat or dog food. Adrenaline doesnt taste good. My friends do eat wild hog. A lot of it (we are in the south after all). They prefer hogs that were trapped and killed quick. Tastes better. Personally I'm not a fan of boar meat at all. I can only stomach it smoked and drowned in that lovely vinegary carolina style bbq. 

Ever been bitten by a dog? I mean a full on good bite. The type of bite that would be used to restrain an animal fighting for its life... I've had bad dog bites before, with the scars to prove it. And they HURT. Bad. I've had dog bite puncture wounds go down into the muscle with gobs of my fat popping out of the hole. The same wounds I have SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES on dog attacked prey. It was seriously one of the most painful things in my life. And I've broken multiple bones and had a 3rd degree burn. 

That's why I think using catch dogs is inhumane. Nothing against killing the hogs. They are an invasive species and should be hunted without prejudice. But catch dogs do inflict a great deal of pain to the hog and waiting on the hunter to get their while being held down it isn't a quick death. I personally do not wish to inflict more pain or fear than absolutely neccessary on my food. 

As for dogs loving to hunt. Sure. I absolutely buy that. However that doesn't make it right. I have had game bred pits dogs that LIVES to fight and kill other dogs. They LOVED it. But it absolutely would have been cruel for me to let them act on those instincts...

The difference between what a pack of wolves do and what humans do is called empathy and compassion. We are capable of understanding pain and fear inflicted upon others and further more we are CAPABLE of choosing methods that are less painful and stressful when the need arises to kill. Wolves cannot do that, they can only kill with their teeth and claws.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> Alright bud. Apparently you're not making any arguments so I can't really post any responses.
> 
> You finally picked up on that?
> 
> ...


I never said any dog "enjoys", or doesn't enjoy, hunting.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

500 dollar filas ... not good. Most certainly ... not a dog for "fools" If the objective is a PPD then "apparently" the first course of action would be at least a year of "stric" basic obedience. Then the challenge would be finding someone "willing" to help train a "fila" in "PP."

I luv "Molossers" myself ... bt the "Fila" and the swayback kinda look??? Not my cup of tea ... I look at those dogs and I always think ... well if "Fred Flintstone" had a dog ... it would look like that. 

If you want to be different but successful ... Look for a real working line "Neapolitan Mastiff" a "Johnson" Type American Bulldog a Cane Corso or a Dogo Argentino. And of course ... the .... "American Band Dawg" which as I understand is actually a "Job Description" and not a breed?? But no one cares?? So that aside ... a cross between an APBT and a Neo. 

Lots of them out there ... not a dog for fools.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Fred Flintstone had a dog -- Dino , don't you know - lol -


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Fred Flintstone had a dog -- Dino , don't you know - lol -
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ztgW2eZp0


LOL ... my bad ... I forgot about "Dino!" Clearly he exhibits all the characteristics of a "poorly" trained dog??? 

I guess "Fred" got the last of an "extinct breed?? The rare ... long necked, hairless, purple skinned ... Dogasaurus??? They don't show up here.:

Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

A "Dogasaurus" would have me rethinking my used of a SLL??


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It's interesting that someone with very few posts would critique and analyze someone with thousands of posts and never quite "get" what the experienced poster is saying, as well as critiquing this forum. I suggest reading much more here before making snap judgments about people with more posts on record.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Fred Flintstone had a dog -- Dino , don't you know - lol -


Dino! Don't we all want one?


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's interesting that someone with very few posts would critique and analyze someone with thousands of posts and never quite "get" what the experienced poster is saying, as well as critiquing this forum. I suggest reading much more here before making snap judgments about people with more posts on record.


Agreed. I am quite embarrassed the way the this thread turned out to be, viz. some members taking things quite far away from the original topic. I had earlier posted a thread on another LSG breed, viz. the CO with more than 6000 visits. But I had not seen such hysteria there.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

On the other hand, does anyone with more posts have more experience with dogs, is a better trainer?


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> On the other hand, does anyone with more posts have more experience with dogs, is a better trainer?


No, a good dog person may not like to post


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

wolfy dog said:


> On the other hand, does anyone with more posts have more experience with dogs, is a better trainer?


That may be true, but I don't think that is what LoveShepherds was saying. I have not been active in this thread, but have been reading it. From my observation, one person was making assumptions about other members, which were not true. I blame that one person for taking the thread so far off track. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. State your opinion, without getting personal with other members. It only makes you look argumentative and does nothing to substantiate your point of view.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> That may be true, but I don't think that is what LoveShepherds was saying. I have not been active in this thread, but have been reading it. From my observation, one person was making assumptions about other members, which were not true. I blame that one person for taking the thread so far off track. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. State your opinion, without getting personal with other members. It only makes you look argumentative and does nothing to substantiate your point of view.


Yes, thank you. I saw no reason for someone relatively new here to attack another member who has spent a huge amounts personal time helping others without at least taking the time to learn more. People have different experiences and beliefs. It's not a reason to call someone names or jump to conclusions. Even the OP was uncomfortable.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

TEZPUR1976 said:


> Agreed. I am quite embarrassed the way the this thread turned out to be, viz. some members taking things quite far away from the original topic. I had earlier posted a thread on another LSG breed, viz. the CO with more than 6000 visits. But I had not seen such hysteria there.


It's not your fault. It happens here. I decided I wasn't going to jump in but when the person kept it alive for no good reason, and no one else said anything, I changed my mind.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Actually I hate PETA.
> 
> I hunted every white tail and Turkey season for well over 15 years. Stopping after career took me into urban living. Last weekend I slaughtered 25 birds for freezer camp. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. In a log cabin then we moved to a farm... I've literally killed literally thousands of animals. Mostly providing food for myself and my pets. Or to protect property. I've had to shoot stray dogs and I am a huge dog lover.
> 
> ...


You're building up the narrative that suits your views. Hogs get hunted all over the world, as they are considered to be an invasive species in many parts of the globe, not just in the US. To suggest that hunting them with dogs is some misguided, ill-informed effort is naive. Hunting them with dogs is one, of many, methods used to hunt and control their numbers. Yes, they get a bit more adrenaline flowing through them when getting chased and caught by dogs, but that's a tradeoff. And I know many hunters who have no problems eating dog-caught hogs, just like many hunters have no problems with eating dog-caught bear or cougar. The adrenaline doesn't always ruin the meat, especially if the hunter is quick to link up with the dogs and dispatch the hog, so I think you're overplaying that issue a bit. The reality is that you can't really hunt and control hog numbers by shooting them one at a time; you shoot one and the rest of the sounder disperses and breeds and their numbers grow. Trapping can work in some environments, but hogs have been know to wise up to those methods over time. Dog hunting is a tried and true method of getting at hogs in hard to reach areas. I also don't think you truly appreciate how bad the hog infestation has become in some states, which has played a large role in motivating hunters to employ dogs to track and catch them.

I don't see any of that as inhumane...it's simply how nature works. One animal dies so that another can live. We as humans have set rules for ourselves in order to manage animals, instead of wiping them out. If you really do have as much experience as you claim, I have no freaking idea how you can go on a lengthy rant about how dog-hunting is more inhumane than other methods. You think shooting an arrow, or even a bullet, through a deer's lungs and having it suffocate on its own blood is any less "painful" or "inhumane?" You think raising and slaughtering cattle all within the confines of a small pen is less "inhumane?" Is a terrier used to hunt and kill rats any less "inhumane?" Humanity in general relies on hunting and livestock management in order to sustain itself. There is some amount of suffering and pain inherent to that process. Do you apply this "humane" principle equally to all the different hunting and food procurement methods, of is it only dogs hunting hogs that bothers you? 

And "humane" is a relative and human-inspired term. I promise you that the death that a hog experiences while being caught by dogs and dispatched with a knife is much more "humane" than how most elk and deer get taken out by wolves or bear. There is no concept of morality or "humaneness" in nature; it's simply Darwinism in its rawest form. Suffering is inherent to that process; to say that we need to prohibit one hunting method because it inflicts pain on the prey is going down an endless rabbit hole...pain and suffering is inevitable in nature, with or without human intervention. Believe it or not, most wild animals don't just keel over and die peacefully in their sleep. It's either a slow starvation during a hard winter or a bloody death from opportunistic predators that finishes them off. Hunting hogs with dogs is not inflicting anything upon these animals that they aren't already experiencing in nature.

Again, I question how much hunting experience you really have, because most hunters and conservationists already know all of this.


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