# Good conformation Folder



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

maximizing exposure to GOOD , CORRECT conformation

in answer to a thread "Disturbing" and others along the same vein - frog dog , cow hocks, roach back etc that may not get read because of the topic that they are connected with , I am starting this file on good and correct conformation -- 


Using Fred Lanting's Front and Rear Angulation in the Working Dog | Fred Lanting

and Hetty "von Lord Fandor"

and Dingo haus Gero 



dreamy

more later

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

That's hard to not admire.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Quite a sight to see...now tell me how they shot this video?


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

It's like watching Nat Geo. Gorgeous!! Thanks Carmen.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

There's two things I don't understand about that dog:


Why does his front left foot go _inside_ his rear left foot while his front right foot goes _outside_ his rear right foot? Or to shift the perspective to the rear- I would have expected both rear feet to come forward on the outside of the front feet. Is this normal?
I'm sure this dog has _extremely_ good conformation otherwise Carmen wouldn't have posted it. But I can't help but think that the humerus is a bit short. I'm sure I'm wrong but I want to learn about what I *think* I see...
In motion, it seems like the humerus and lower arm are very close in length:









But in the stack, I don't think I agree (note the credit given to Linda Shaw's artwork):









I don't mean this arrogantly- in fact, I am quite ignorant *and trying to learn*. What makes this dog's conformation better than any of the other GSDs out there that have a short humerus? What is it about this dog's front end that you like?

I can't stress enough that I am not bashing this dog. I don't know a thing about this dog. But as a Sieger and VA rated, someone must thing he's pretty great. I'm trying to learn here...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the main draw of using Gero as an example is that stacked he's not extreme at all but moving he looks great. He's usually the rebuttal to the trend of extreme rear angles, "banana backs", short and steep croup, broken topline being the desires trends. I'm no expert so I can't comment directly on your questions other than to say no dog is perfect! 

I actually have a folder on my computer where I save dogs I like, but very few dogs in there are my complete ideal picture, most of the pictures feature a desirable head, earset, shoulder, rear, topline, etc.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Is this thread for posting dogs we think have exceptional conformation?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Andaka- that was my take in reading Carmen's OP. That said, I hope people can feel free to question why someone thinks a specific dog has exceptional conformation, and that the poster can back their reasoning for thinking so.

Liesje- I can totally see your explanation. I am still having a _really_ hard time "reading" a dog's rear end conformation but would agree that Dingo haus Gero does somehow look very nice in topline and rear end. I think the thing that caught me off guard is that Carmen has stated that a poor front end is a major pet-peeve. I'm certainly not saying Dingo has a "poor" front end- just saying that I felt the humerus was a bit short.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Dingo...(albeit my beloved Drago's mother was line bred on him).....does/did not have a *straight or level* topline. oh oh......he also curved downward from his back to croup area. His wither was the highest point...as well as his croup (rear) being the lowest.....no *level* in his topline, even standing in his normal stance.
He could be easily "stacked" to exaggerate the curvature of his back...*push on rear, and extend back leg slightly.*...he also somewhat "fell" on his pasterns when in motion.....
My Tatianna (daughter of Drago) resembles this type of dog...and her movement is nearly flawless. Tatianna can gait for hours without tiring...and *honestly*...I have *never* seen her pace.....even when exhausted.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Wildo....the illustration with the "skeletal example" is not positioned properly.....look at where the shoulder blade is?.....the topline does not begin where it is placed.

Again....Illustration does not mean correct or perfect.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'd hope that the illustration actually _does_ mean "correct and perfect." Otherwise, what's the point of the illustration? I posit that the illustration is exactly what you want to see in the real dog- that's the point of the illustration.

I positioned that based on the placement and length of the lower arm. I felt I had that positioned properly. The illustration should be to scale so if the scapula falls in a different spot on the real dog, then the real bones must not be to the proper length and angulation, at least according to the illustration.

Either the dog is wrong, or the illustration is wrong...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The illustration is the opinion of the author.....
The illustration that "shows" the skeletal placement of the front (shoulder angle) is placed incorrectly....just by looking at it, you can see this.
The illustration does not connect to the actual picture's top-line.....so in all actuality, it is incorrect....there is a gap between picture and illustration...

Wildo...did you place the skeletal illustration up?...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Wow, now I really want to watch more dogs in slow mo so I can see their pasterns! My mind is not made for this kind of thing - I see "yikes" all over the place when I look at all dogs. To me his pasterns seemed to be hitting down too much/squishing - but I am not saying this as anything but the most ignorant person in the room. And I cringe watching my own GSD run.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jean...the pasterns are supposed to "cushion" the impact of the dog whilst in movement. They "need" to have flexibility in the pasterns, so there is less "pounding"...less injury.....even wolves's pastern "flex downward" when running.
I simply made the comment to have others "observe" the pasterns in a dog that has been noted as one of the best dogs in structure and movement, by the masses.
Absolutely...he was a great dog....in both movement and in character....but he was not a perfect dog either.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Here is an American Show Line dog:

Ch. Andaka-Zederland's U R It CD RAE2 TC OFA HECT Cerf



















Sorry, no video.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The point of overlaying the illustration over the stacked photo was to get a visual of where the humerus lay, and to indicate if it was too short or not. The goal was not to point out anything about the scapula. I do feel that the illustration (which, while opinion, is drawn based on criteria outlined in the standard- which should not be considered opinion) properly represents the placement and length of the lower arm bones. So if the scapula needs to go up in order to meet the proper location in the real dog, then either the humerus needs to be longer, or the scapula-humerus angle needs to increase beyond 90-95 degrees.

I guess I really don't have any clue how to read a front end. I really should stay out of these threads... I thought the standard _defined_ all this stuff. I thought that illustration put a picture to the words of the standard (scapula, humerus, lower arm all equal length; scapula-humerus angle near 90 to 95 degrees, etc). I live in a world of logic- it's either one way or the other- can't have them both! :rofl:


*[EDIT]*- Correction. I guess the breed standard does indicate that the scapula-humerus angle is permissible up to 110 degrees. I suppose if you raised up the scapula in the illustration (opening the shoulder angle) you would be able to leave all bone lengths equal. So perhaps it is not that the humerus is short, but that the scapula-humerus angle is obtuse.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Ok..now I understand what you did! LOL.....well...you actually *did* show a problem....and made it completely visible.
*see!*...no such thing as a "perfect dog"....even when one is illustrated as being one!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

robinhuerta said:


> Jean...the pasterns are supposed to "cushion" the impact of the dog whilst in movement. They "need" to have flexibility in the pasterns, so there is less "pounding"...less injury.....even wolves's pastern "flex downward" when running.
> I simply made the comment to have others "observe" the pasterns in a dog that has been noted as one of the best dogs in structure and movement, by the masses.
> Absolutely...he was a great dog....in both movement and in character....but he was not a perfect dog either.


Thank you! You know what I am going to be doing later today - watching all my dogs' and trying to see that movement! It is interesting to watch the difference between the mixes - some seem "better/sturdier" some not and the GSDs I either have had or fostered. Like I said, I am not at all up on this and see things that I am not sure what I am seeing. Thanks.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't know too much about confirmation, but that is one handsome pup, and his movement is so flowy!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Daphne...nice dog! I like him!...but i think I responded to liking him in another thread too!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Andaka said:


> Here is an American Show Line dog:
> 
> Ch. Andaka-Zederland's U R It CD RAE2 TC OFA HECT Cerf
> 
> ...


At full extension, shouldn't the dog be "flying"? 

I think that this dog has more rear angulation than front, which prevents him from having that period of suspension at the moment of being outstretched. Also, it looks like it lifts his front end a bit so it's not near the ground. Totally not sure of myself on this point, so consider this more a question than a statement!

Now I'm going to have to go watch that video again!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Christine...because the dog is "leashed" and not free to gait...you will not get a *complete* picture of extension (this goes for any dog) especially if the dog in movement is not going at a faster speed.
In the AKC rings...there is not much room...nor do they run at the speed (fast run) as the SV shows.

Let me find a picture of more extension....but again....no dog is perfect.
gimmi a sec...


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wildo said:


> The point of overlaying the illustration over the stacked photo was to get a visual of where the humerus lay, and to indicate if it was too short or not. The goal was not to point out anything about the scapula. I do feel that the illustration (which, while opinion, is drawn based on criteria outlined in the standard- which should not be considered opinion) properly represents the placement and length of the lower arm bones. So if the scapula needs to go up in order to meet the proper location in the real dog, then either the humerus needs to be longer, or the scapula-humerus angle needs to increase beyond 90-95 degrees.
> ...
> *[EDIT]*- Correction. I guess the breed standard does indicate that the scapula-humerus angle is permissible up to 110 degrees. I suppose if you raised up the scapula in the illustration (opening the shoulder angle) you would be able to leave all bone lengths equal. So perhaps it is not that the humerus is short, but that the scapula-humerus angle is obtuse.


I think the point of elbow on the illustration also is somewhat off from the image. 

We have to remember that the illustrations are static "best guesses" -- and to a certain degree, the "proof is in the pudding" -- that is if the dog's movement is correct but doesn't match the illustration, I would think that the illustration is wrong. The illustration is done from life to try to represent what we think will be the ideal skeletal construction--but skeletons, especially the shoulder, are not static. So if the movement is right, it's more likely, IMO, that the illustration is wrong than vice versa.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Since I won't offer up another person's dog as an example for this....
Here are a couple of mine...









*This is Ivan in a "walk" around the Conformation ring......head up (looking for owner). His drive in the back is very good.....he can use a little better reach in the front.....









*This is Luca starting a "fast run" around the Conformation ring. Her reach is actually very nice, ALTHOUGH restricted with a tight leash (as you can see at the neck and shoulder area), so her foot is slightly raised........her rear drive can be slightly better (than pictured).....due to her being close in the rear.

My computer takes forever to load pics.....so these are the only ones I had a chance to load for now.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Ch. Andaka-Zederland's This Kiss HSAs RE OFA


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> Daphne...nice dog! I like him!...but i think I responded to liking him in another thread too!


Thanks, Robin.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a good one Redirect Notice


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a good one - Eko-lans Shiloh CH Eko-Lan's Shiloh - German Shepherd Dog

Fred Migliorie had some nice balance , beautiful fronts on his dogs . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

have not forgotten this folder -- going through 1980 German Shepherd League of Great Britain handbook I saw a head shot of Orsof vom Busecker Schloss -- such a keen expression -- checked pedigree data base , no body shot of him but what a pedigree Orsof von Busecker Schloss - German Shepherd Dog

I don't know what Orsof looks like but I will add his sire Pollux Busecker Schloss to the folder as a nice balanced working type conformation -- V Pollux vom Busecker Schloß - German Shepherd Dog 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> At full extension, shouldn't the dog be "flying"?
> 
> I think that this dog has more rear angulation than front, which prevents him from having that period of suspension at the moment of being outstretched. Also, it looks like it lifts his front end a bit so it's not near the ground. Totally not sure of myself on this point, so consider this more a question than a statement!
> 
> Now I'm going to have to go watch that video again!


This is Ch. Tag we are talking about, right?

Actually he is pulling on the leash, which tends to lift his front up. That makes him appear to have more rear than front as he drives into the tight leash.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would like to add these two dogs to the Good Conformation folder -- 


Eliese vom Ziegenhainer Tal SG Eliese vom Ziegenhainer Tal

who has a good old DDR pedigree - and Wildo if you are reading this , the structure is ideal for your agility and speed fließendes Gangwerk -- well muscled rear and swift ground covering movement.










*Cito vom Haus Hübner* war der zweite Schäferhund der 

what a handsome masculine male with beautiful structure , appearance of strength and head - also DDR


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I know this is an old thread, but I almost fell asleep while watching this!  Sooo dddrrreeeaaammmyyyyzzzzzzzzzzzz...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The great Hatter (Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan)









Branko Salztalblick









Troll Haus Milinda









Ajax Rohnsaler Bach - I am not digging his front, but look at that croup! And the color <3









Campaigner's Gatewood Uzi


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Manhattan is not ideal , even though he was a B I S winner at Westminster. He is a pretty dog , had very apparent friendliness , charming in seeking out attention but not correct GSD aloof character . Soft . Pasterns soft , front assembly not in balance with rear . More rear than front.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Any bitework vids of dingo?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

And that's fine to have your opinion, Carmen. He's a dog I like...wish I could have seen him. Was too young.

Ideals differ between people.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

That doesn't look like the 'standard' as I would perceive it either. Especially, the last one. Probably nice dogs but are they not a bit short?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

beautiful all-day trotting build Tinka vom Alt-Ostland


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

adding 
*Aly von Gut Korten*


Ganz weit draußen am Ende des Regenbogens werden wir uns wiedersehen








V: Ahron von Granit Rose
M: Cleo von der Bildsäule
*V Frauke von Gut Korten 
**ED NORMAL, BH, SCHH1,*

*Dam born : 08. January 2009*




_SZ 2230926_

*Franco von Gut Korten*











WT: 08.01.2009 
V: Quasimodo vom Rosseleck 
M: Easy von Gut Korten 
*Jill von der Donnerbrücke *


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ulf von der Fuchswiese


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

TIMMY "
Shawlein Easter Parade SchH3 AD TD CD CGC HT OFA, “Tim”


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

his sire, his dam, his son

CH Wiesental’s Corry Mensenredder TT CGC OFA OVC. Tim’s dad.
 Corry



Carmspack Katiana TT ovc

son Kato

Carmspack Kato BH TT,


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CH Canispheres Hope Of Faith OFA H/E


American show lines -- owned by Prairieside GDS


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ralle Grubenstolz 

built to move all day -- strong back , bones and ligaments , beautiful feminine expression 

if someone can just paste the picture of her I would appreciate it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Image may contain: text
354 Likes3 Comments42 Shares


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

carmspack said:


> Ralle Grubenstolz
> 
> built to move all day -- strong back , bones and ligaments , beautiful feminine expression
> 
> if someone can just paste the picture of her I would appreciate it.


Here:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this dog Xena belongs on this thread 

this is what correct conformation allows you to do .
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/750471-dog-park.html 

if someone can just post the images?


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## Eddoo (Oct 6, 2018)

carmspack said:


> this dog Xena belongs on this thread
> 
> this is what correct conformation allows you to do .
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/750471-dog-park.html
> ...


 @Nurse2b


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Found this, and thought I'd add it in, as there is no photo of Timmy on Working Dog. From Linda Shaw's book, The Illustrated Standard for the GSD:


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