# supplement kibble w/chicken?



## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi,

I currently just cannot go to a completely raw diet. But I do want to do the best I can. I've heard pros and cons of doing both raw and kibble. I think my dog is doing ok if I give raw, for example chicken leg quarters, first, and then the kibble. That way the raw, that goes through the digestive tract faster, is in first and isn't obstructed by kibble which will pass through slower.

My question is, how much do I need to reduce the kibble, if I give one chicken quarter?

She currently gets about 2 1/2 cups per day of Eagle Pack Holistic (right now it's the fishy flavor). She does well on that, but as soon as I give her chicken leg quarters she gets a little chubby.

Should I just stick with the kibble since she seems ok with it? Or should I decrease the kibble, and by how much? She's 13 months old, weighs about 52 pounds. I often add a little bit of something to the kibble like organic plain yoghurt, or maybe a little of whatever meat is for human dinner that night. Not usually enough to decrease the kibble. She also gets a Greenie or two a day, and an egg once a week. and a dab of peanut butter (to seal some kibble in a Kong for fun).


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

My adult lab gets a about a cup and a half of kibble in the morning and she gets a chicken quarter at night. Before she goes to bed she gets a handful of kibble just to ensure she wont get an upset stomach during the night.


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## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks acurajane! (Another "jane!)

How much does she weigh?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

My boys pretty much the same size as your girl and they eat about the same amount of calories a day according to the EP website. When I add plain meat to his meals I reduce his kibble by 1/2 a cup. So I'd use that to start with and adjust as needed.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I just cut out one meal of kibble for Jerzey and added half the recommended amount of raw.

Jerzey was being fed 3 cups/2x a day. Now she gets 3 cups of kibble in the morning and, for dinner, she gets 1.5% of her body weight in raw. I transitioned her to this cold turkey in the sense that I didn't mix her raw dinner with kibble. I, also, do not give her kibble in the evening at all. She has had no problems with the switch. 

I separate her meals because I don't like the idea of mixing kibble and raw together since they are digested in a different way. I know some people do this and it's fine but I just don't like the idea, personally, which is why I split them into separate meals completely.

If you want to do raw in the evening I would do the entire raw experience. Start with a single protein source (chicken!) and feed RMB (raw meaty bone) and MM (muscle meat) before adding OM (organ meat.) Once your dog is used to all of this and has good poops you can then add new protein sources in as your dog becomes accustomed to the chicken. I started Jerzey with whole chickesn (so I could easily get the meat to bone ratio right) and cut them into chunks until I got the 19 oz she was supposed to eat. I added OM to her meal as a regular part 2 weeks later (she was getting a little with her whole chickens but wasn't getting it every day.)

Now Jerzey has transitioned to eating chicken quarters or breast (bone in) as her RMB and I added ground beef as her MM. Most of the quarters were about a pound so I added ~3 oz of the ground beef. The breasts were lighter so I added more ground beef to get to the desired 19 oz along with about ~1 oz of liver as her OM. She has done fine with this mix. I recently bought turkey and lamb to add to her meals since I know she's now fine with chicken, ground beef, and beef liver.

With raw diets, variety is VERY IMPORTANT! Which is why I would recommend feeding more than just a chicken quarter for dinner and adding the RMB, MM, and OM as well as as many protein sources you can get your hands on! 

Oh, in case you were wondering Jerzey is a spayed female who will be a year in ~two weeks. She weighs 84 lbs and has been this half kibble half raw mix for about a month. Before we started she was fairly thin and actually gain 10 lbs on her first few weeks as she's filled out. I think the new diet has helped this process, although I have no proof. I also think her coat looks shinier but maybe I'm prejudice to the diet.









There are many people on the board that are much more experienced than I am that will probably be able to give you more tried and true advice but this is what I've been doing for the past month or so and it's been working fine for us!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Since chicken quarters come in all sizes and weights...it is kind of hard to give an exact answer. I have had some quarters when 3/4lb and some closer to 1.5 lbs...

If you are planning on doing 1/2 raw and 1/2 kibble (one raw meal and one kibble) I would feed half the amount of kibble you normally feed and figure out how much raw your dog would be eating (if she was on a full diet) and feed 1/2. Adult dogs should be fed 2-3% of their weight and pups are fed 2-3% of their EXPECTED ADULT weight. Of course, every dog is different...and you will have to adjust depending if your dog is gaining or losing weight.


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## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the good comments and advice!

So, if I want to do half and half, then with her being about 50 lbs I would want to feed about 1/2 lb raw, and then 1/2 of the recommended kibble, right? Or if the raw is less than 1/2 lb, then maybe just start with reducing the kibble by 1/2 cup. I did notice the chicken quarters vary widely in size, even in the same bag.

Is there a reason to do kibble in the morning and raw in the evening rather than the other way round?

Also, I've heard that dogs' digestive tracts aren't meant to have something in them most of the time (unlike humans, who do well with healthy "grazing" throughout the day). So I thought, maybe eating raw (which moves faster) followed by kibble (which moves slower), and then going a full day before the next meal, might be good. Does that sound ok or is there something I'm overlooking?


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

At 50 lbs, your dog would need ~12 oz of raw (assuming you're feeding 1.5% of the dogs ideal weight.) I feed Jerzey 50% MM, 45% RMB, and 5% OM so your dog, based on my chart, would eat about 6 oz MM, 5.4 oz RMB and 0.6 oz of OM, although this will vary depending on your dog. Some people recommend different starting amounts but you'll find with works for your dog over time. You can tell if your dog needs more MM if the dog is constipated or the poop somehow seems too hard. Your dog will need more RMB (bone, mainly) if the dogs poops are consistently too runny.

Cut the dogs kibble rations in half and that should be all the kibble the dog will need.

I do kibble in the morning because I have class and I can just put it in her bowl and let her eat it. I like raw in the evening because it gives me more time to, not only clean up, but also watch her and make sure she's doing alright after the meal in case, God forbid, she had a bone puncture her or something. Plus raw just takes longer to eat and I want to give her more time to eat it while I'm around.

I can't offer any advice on whether to leave the dogs stomach empty for a day. I've never heard that before and I don't do that with Jerzey either. I think that a dog can deal with going a day or more without food since they have to hunt they're food and this may happen. However, I think if they could eat every day they would. I would be worried if you let the dog fast for a day they would be more likely to gulp they're food when they finally got it.







I have no idea.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

But, is 50 lbs her adult weight...seems to me, she might continue to grow and fill out a bit.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03But, is 50 lbs her adult weight...seems to me, she might continue to grow and fill out a bit.


True, you want to feed 1.5% of her _ideal_ weight. If you think she can stand to gain more weight than add that into the amount you would feed.


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## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks y'all! Especially for working out the different percentages for me.

She's a slim and trim 13 months old right now. She almost certainly will fill out, but I want to keep her very trim for now. I hope to start training her for a BH and then SchH if I can find anyone to work with, so the breeder told me to keep her so that ribs almost show, or 2 ribs just barely show. I know that's a lot thinner than most people keep their pets. But it's supposed to be better for the hips and pano too, to be on the thin side and not to grow too fast.

The last pictures I sent to people someone commented she looked a bit fat







so I'm being very careful to try to not put any more weight on her.

So, the chicken quarters counts as RMB but not MM? If I gave her some of whatever meat the humans eat, that would probably be MM right?

What is OM - oatmeal?

When I said "going a full day before the next meal" I meant, you feed one evening, then not feed again until the next evening. So the food had 24 hours to pass through.

Although I have heard some people have a "fasting" day once a week. I don't think my girl would take too kindly to that, if the humans were sitting down to dinner and she wasn't! LOL


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

storm is 19 months old and he is around 82 pounds. i give him 1 1/2 cups of wellness core reduced fat kibble in the morning. i do the reduced because most of the grain frees are super high in fat. this is a nice 9% fat. i also mix a bit of canned natural balance lamb or beef in his kibble. that's his breakfast. for dinner i do straight up raw. the reason i like the kibble in the am is because i feel it will hold him over while i'm at work. also, i like the raw at night because i feel that it's lighter and he can digest it faster, instead of having all that kibble laying in his stomach all nite. also, i worry about bloat. if you dog is active in the am, then do the kibble at night when he is less active. you should never exercise right before or after a meal anyway. at night storm gets about 12 ounces of raw meat. i do the premade, but sometimes add my own ground beef or heart or liver. he also gets rmb's a few times a week and he is maintaining a nice healthy weight.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

OM = Organ Meat
RMB = Raw Meaty Bones
MM = Muscle Meat (any piece of piece withOUT bone)

Quarters are considered RMB's, but they have a good ratio of bone:meat so you should be ok feeding just quarters. (Some dogs need more MM to go with the quarters and others do not, it just depends on the dog). If you were feeding something like turkey necks - you would definitely need to add some MM to that because the necks are quite boney.

You can always adjust the amount of food your pup gets - but I would work off the 2-3% of her ADULT weight and you can go from there. This is where a kitchen scale will come in handy. If she gains weight, you can feed less...if she gets too skinny, you can feed more. With a scale there won't be any guessing games.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: jayney
> 
> Also, I've heard that dogs' digestive tracts aren't meant to have something in them most of the time (unlike humans, who do well with healthy "grazing" throughout the day). So I thought, maybe eating raw (which moves faster) followed by kibble (which moves slower), and then going a full day before the next meal, might be good. Does that sound ok or is there something I'm overlooking?


I used to feed my dogs just once a day but was advised that it is better to feed 2 smaller meals a day rather than one big one. Reasons: avoid bloat by avoiding food gulping, and avoid empty stomach urps. There is a lot of contradictory info on this, but I weighed the risks and decided that 2 meals a day was healthier for my dogs.


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## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

I started wondering that too, tonight as I prepared her food. It sure seems like, if bloat is a common concern, that you wouldn't want to give all the day's food all at once.

Thanks for voicing that opinion. I'll have to look into exactly why a lot advise to feed only once a day.


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## jayne241 (Jan 30, 2009)

OM = Organ Meat ... thanks. (Boy was I way off, with guessing oatmeal!)

Are some organ meats preferred over others? Like, is too much liver bad?


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: jayneyOM = Organ Meat ... thanks. (Boy was I way off, with guessing oatmeal!)
> 
> Are some organ meats preferred over others? Like, is too much liver bad?


I know that liver can be very rich and cause diarrhea, so start with a small amount. Even if the OM is from the same protein source as the diet your dog is eating, transition it in by itself so you can tell if your dog is having bad reaction (aka bad poops) to it. The only OM there is, I believe, is liver and kidney. Some people feed 10% OM with at least half being liver. I feed only 5% OM because I only have access (as far as I've seen so far) to liver. I do not know that there is necessarily a preference and I believe liver is more common as it's easier to find.

I am new to raw so someone _PLEASE _correct me if I am mistaken, but this is what I understand.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: jayneyOM = Organ Meat ... thanks. (Boy was I way off, with guessing oatmeal!)
> ...


Is heart considered an OM?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Heart is considered a MM...


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Hi Jayney,

There was a thread recently asking almost your exact same question, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1019765&page=2#Post1019765

It is advised that if you are supplementing a kibble diet that no more than 30% of the calories be from fresh foods. This ensures that the kibble remains balanced and that you aren't throwing off the balance of nutrients.

In your case it is fine to supplement with chicken quarters only if you want as they have a good ratio of calcium to phos. Each ounce of chicken quarter with bone has 73 calories.

If you were only going to supplement with meat alone which is very high in phos, and no bone which is very high in calcium, you would need to add 250mg calcium to each 3.5 ounces of boneless meat.


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