# Breeding A Long-Haired Shepherd?



## Guest

Is it possible to breed a long-haired Shepherd and get a short-haired litter? When I first bought my sweet little puppy Ava, I had no intention of breeding, I was simply looking for a great family pet. The breeder told me on the phone that there were three puppies to chose from, but one of the three was a little "fuzzy". When we got the kennel, my sweet Ava ran to me. I couldn't even bring myself to look at the other puppies, because I just knew, she was the one for us. However, now that I am doing research and she's enrolled in classes, I think that I would really like for her to have a litter. But the more I read, it is an "undesirable" trait for Shepherds to have long hair. So my question is, if she has long hair, will all of her puppies have long hair?
Thanks so much
Sincerely,
Missy and Ava /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/pinksmile.gif


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## Ashten

The only way you will not get longcoats in a litter is if the sire does NOT carry the long coat factor (most do). If you breed to a short coat that carries the long coat you will get both short and long coats in the litter. 

There are many OTHER reasons/qualities besides coat that one needs to look at when considering breeding a dog. I am sure you will get some responses on this thread and from people with strong opinions. Please take the time to read them and think carefully about what the person is trying to say without becoming defensive. That can be hard at times but most of the times they mean well.


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## Guest

Oh absolutely, I am prepared for honest answers. My little Ava is still young, I have lots of time to think about and research the whole breeding process. I would certainly not breed her, if she or her pups run the risk of having any complications. I have talked it over with my vet and she has told me that she is definitly on board with any decision I make. That being said, I should also mention, she is definitly starting to grow out of her "fuzzy" stage, and has now settled into more of a medium length coat. Again though she is still a puppy so who knows what she'll turn out to look like. I am just curious is all. She is only 4 months old(probably should have said that in my first post, lol) She has just finished her first round in puppy class and begins her next round on Thursday. We know the potential of GSD and we want her to go as far as she can in "Dog" school. Anyway, thanks for your response and all the future responses
Take care
Missy & Ava


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## gsdsar

I too have a LC GSD and I love her to death, best dog ever. But I spayed her, for the sole reaosn that she was a long coat. It is not only undesirable for a GSD but a huge fault and should not be bred.

When deciding wether or not to breed you have to look at everything the dog has to offer. Temperment, drive, conformation, everything, if the pup lacks in any in a major way then they should not be bred. Breeding should be done for the betterment (is that even a word) of the breed, and to breed a dog clearly out of standard is not really ethical. 

I.E. My male pup Ike was never intended for a breeding dog, but he grew up beautifully is very masculine, has a great temperment and outstanding drive and soundness. So I put off neutering him unitl he was 2 to see how he turned out. Well he is too tall, by about 1 1/2 in and has a minor oddity in his bite. Not something most people would notice but I did. So he got fixed. 

There are so many dogs out there with the same qualities without the faults that it made no sense to add his genes to the gene pool. IMHO a dog should only be bred if they are OUTSTANDING and show all the traits a GSD should.

A dog with an obvious and huge fault should not be bred. I know you love your pup and she is probably a wonderful dog. But being a wonderful dog does not make her breed worthy. As a breeder it will be your responsibilty to ensure that only the best dogs be bred and by that retain the integrity of the breed.

Some day i hope to breed, some day I will find just the right dog, I dont have it right now.

As for your original question, both parents have to carry the LC gene for the any of the pups to be LC. So technically if you breed to male that does not carry the gene then none of the pups will be LC but they will still carry the possibilty of producing it if they are bred.

And as I am sure many will tell you, breeding is a HUGE responsibilty, you bring those pups into the world, you are responsible for their lives, are you prepared to make sure they have a good life, no matter what? Can you ensure that they will never be mistreated or sent to a pound? Even if that means that taking them back if their owners cant keep them? can you ensure the saftey of your female? Afford the time and money it takes to raise a litter? Will you female be titled in anything? Will you be able to make sure she has no other defects such as Hip Dysplasia or eye issues? can you handle the financial aspect if anything goes worng and she needs emergency care while giving birth? there are lots of things to consider.

If you do decide to breed her then I wish you good luck and i hope that you do eberything possible to ensure that she and the pups have a healthy and happy life.

Good luck-


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## Wetdog

At the risk of provoking a war here, let me say that conformation is important, but not the only criteria for breeding. Although it is[almost certainly] unlikely you will be able to title Ava in shows due to her coat, if you proceed to make the health checks and find her to be healthy and free of genetic disorders, I'd proceed to training and titling in performance events----GSD is a working breed and I think working ability is VERY important to have. Have some knowledgeable persons evaluate her conformation regardless of her coat. If all proves out well, and you do breed her--you should be able to produce good quality puppies that can be showable since the LC is a recessive gene, and they will be no more prone to throw LC puppies than any other recessive carriers who have a short coat. As it was pointed out earlier, most SC's carry a recessive LC gene. If you breed responsibly, you should be able to breed back to the SC without a problem, and assuming her genetics and conformation are sound, and have a puppy that you can show.


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## gsdsar

While I do agree that working abilty is important, I believe that there is no reaosn to breed a dog with such a disqualifying fault. There are alot of dogs out there without this fault and that have been titled and shown that should be bred instead. if we are truly breeding to better the breed than to breed a faulty dog is against the betterment of the breed as a whole.

To me its the same as breeding a dog with floppy ears, or one that is too big or small, or even one with an obvious temperment issue. Yes with careful breeding you can get rid of these in the puppies, but you have added the genes to a pool with enough problems as it is. We should only breed the best of the best.


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## Wetdog

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that there is no reaosn to breed a dog with such a disqualifying fault. There are alot of dogs out there without this fault and that have been titled and shown that should be bred instead. if we are truly breeding to better the breed than to breed a faulty dog is against the betterment of the breed as a whole.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because the "fault" is only a fault in the mind of the person looking at the dog. It is not a damaged or mutated gene, it is a widely spread inherent genetic trait. LC does not produce any sort of weakness or illness-it simply produces a different phenotype(what you see), it is not technically correct to call it a "fault" in my opinion. The genetic material in all the puppies from the same breeding is exactly the same, only expressed differently. "Back Breeding" to replicate lost ancestral traits is often a valuable tool in breeding management. Back breeding to replicate lost ancestral traits of hardiness and vigor is very popular in plants right now, with much interest in replicated "antique" varieties that offer greater disease resistance, ease of care, and increased ranges. If this lady back breeds her bitch to produce short coat pups, it does nothing to the overall gene pool. Admittedly, starting from the point that you suggest would be easier, but she already has her pup.
I'm not trying to argue with you here gsdsar--just point out that some of the ideas and language of breeding became established LONG before there was a clearer picture of genetics that we now have. Some of the assumptions and practices have stood the test of time and greater understanding(titling for instance)is still a good tool for comparison of complex behaviors.


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]


Because the "fault" is only a fault in the mind of the person looking at the dog. 

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but this doesn't take into account that some of the traits considered "faults" are faults for a good reason. With longcoats, the coat is a fault because it is not as waterproof and weather resistant as the standard stock coat, and because it is much higher maintenance to prevent matts, burrs, etc... 

This has nothing to do with people way back when not understanding genetics and thinking it was a mutated gene, indicator of health problems, etc... It is a fault out of practicality. While this might not matter to the average pet owner, the longcoat is considered a definite disadvantage for anyone wanting to use the dog for it's intended purpose doing herding, or other working endeavors.

There are plenty of longcoats in the breed, and longcoated puppies popping up in litters that are bred to conform to the standard. More than enough to supply those few qualified buyers who would have a hankering for a coat. We don't need more breeders further deviating from the standard to intentionally breed dogs with faults in order to supply the pet market.

-Chris


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## Ashten

[ QUOTE ]
With longcoats, the coat is a fault because it is not as waterproof and weather resistant as the standard stock coat, and because it is much higher maintenance to prevent matts, burrs, etc... 

[/ QUOTE ] 

In my experience most of the dogs we call 'longcoats' DO have the double coat. I think at some point the germans actually referred to them as stock coats. SO, in my opinion these are actually not 'long coats'. In fact many of them are just like many 'full' coated dogs with perhaps a bit more fur. When you consider the other breeds that have long coats (with both coats) and do herding, is this really a valid point? In fact many of the old herding shepherds were of the longer coat variety. There can actually be some advantages as well especially in colder weather especially if you compare them to the slick coated gsd.


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]


In my experience most of the dogs we call 'longcoats' DO have the double coat. I think at some point the germans actually referred to them as stock coats. SO, in my opinion these are actually not 'long coats'. In fact many of them are just like many 'full' coated dogs with perhaps a bit more fur. 

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 3 coat types.
Stock Coat (what we consider to be "normal")
Long Stock Coat... a long coat with a double coat.
Long Coat... a long coat without a double coat.

Long Stock Coats, dogs with a double coat, while still more prone to matting than normal Stock Coated dogs, do have all of the natural weatherproofing, yes. Long coats do not.

True, I'm sure many of the dogs people refer to as "long coats" are long stock coats.

[ QUOTE ]

When you consider the other breeds that have long coats (with both coats) and do herding, is this really a valid point? In fact many of the old herding shepherds were of the longer coat variety. There can actually be some advantages as well especially in colder weather especially if you compare them to the slick coated gsd. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is a valid point because we are not talking about those other breeds, we are talking about GSDs. 

I grew up and still live in Michigan. Believe me, we know what winter is. All my dogs have been stock coats. All have spent lots of time outside in the winter (some even living as strictly outside dogs when I was growing up) and the weather hasn't bothered them a bit. No extra fur needed.

I'm sure people get tired of us yapping on about the standard, but the fact is that the standard and breeding to it is what makes a GSD a GSD. If everyone just threw the standard out the window and was allowed to have their own interpretation of what they liked in GSDs and what they thought was a "good dog" how long until we found ourselves with a bunch of liver, long coated, soft eared dogs with absolutely no drive or working ability.

If you want to breed long coated herding dogs, get into Rough Collies. Blue dogs? Get Weims. If you just want a longcoat, or a blue, or whatever else as a pet because you think they're neat, that is fine too. But find one from a good breeder who just happens to have a fluke. Not from people breeding for personal gain and ignoring the standard. Then enjoy your dog for what it is, a GSD in a slightly unusual package, but please spay/neuter it.

-Chris


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## Ashten

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to breed long coated herding dogs, get into Rough Collies. Blue dogs? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

The rough collie actually comes in quite a coat variety as well. Border collies (the 'real' working/herding dog as some might say /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif) comes in all coat lengths. From slick to full to long coat. The coat length is NEVER a factor in breeding....the temperament and working ability is always No.1. 

I certainly don't advocate for people/breeders to take 'true' long coats (both sire/dam) and breed them together to produce a whole litter of longcoats for what you refer to as [ QUOTE ]
for personal gain 

[/ QUOTE ]. 

I think the biggest problem is the definition of a longcoat. If I remember correctly the SV was actually asked to reconsider allowing the 'stockcoat' in as part of the standard? Lets face it there are a lot of 'borderline' gsd long coats! Some do have thier V or VA rating.

As well, I guess one should also remember that is is not a disqualification in the american gsd standard. Some have thier american/canadian championship.

Would I buy a long coat puppy from a breeder who bred both sire/dam as longcoats where all the pups were longcoats? No. Would I buy a pup from a breeder who bred to a 'stockcoat' (Whether long or short) and where most of the pups were not longcoats. Would depend on the reason they bred the litter. Would depend on the qualities the dog had. I will say that when 'working' people have looked at pups/dogs for sale for 'real' work, they seldom cared if the sire/dam/pup was a longcoat or not. But again...I am not referring to the 'real' longcoat that only has the undercoat. It seems that you are assuming that all breeders/people who buy longcoats are doing so for a pet market. This is not necessarily true.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I find this very interesting because I have what we term a long coat male that I now know is a stock coat with a longer outer coat. I have also had some breeders tell me he is "plush". Max is a rescue that we sprang from death row. Until then I had NEVER seen a long coat. I knew they existed, I had seen pictures, but I never saw one in the fur before. 

I love Max to pieces, he is the sweetest and has the kindest face. All the fluffies give him an endearing look that really draws people to him.

From a breeding standpoint that is all useless info. But what I am confused about is this .... I had a breeder tell me once that every now and then you need a long coat in the gene pool as that is what developed the stock coat as we know it now. 

What I know about breeding and genetics would fit in a thimble too, so I can handle it if you guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rotflmao.gif on that one!

Since I don't breed, I am not that particular about coat. Max may not conform but he is a good tracker, great at agility and loves to work for me and has a wonderful set of hips. And honestly, I would take a long coat over a sable. Really don't care for sables.


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]

I think the biggest problem is the definition of a longcoat. If I remember correctly the SV was actually asked to reconsider allowing the 'stockcoat' in as part of the standard? Lets face it there are a lot of 'borderline' gsd long coats! Some do have thier V or VA rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the long stock coat was allowed for many years. It was just a few years ago that the long stock coat was barred from getting a breed survey. The true long coat (non-double coated) has never been allowed. The true stock coat has always been preferred.

There are a lot of plush coated show dogs that do push the envelope, yes. But they are still not long/long stock coats. Put them next to a true long/long stock coat and the differences are obvious. A true long coat will have tufts in the ears, a part in the hair on the center of the back, etc... Stock coated dogs who just happen to have longer, fluffier hair than normal ("Plush" coats) do not.

[ QUOTE ]
As well, I guess one should also remember that is is not a disqualification in the american gsd standard. Some have thier american/canadian championship.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But then neither is any sort of health, temperament or working ability testing required. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/green.gif

[ QUOTE ]

It seems that you are assuming that all breeders/people who buy longcoats are doing so for a pet market. This is not necessarily true. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not necessarily true. But in most cases, particularly when breeders choose to breed to a coated dog, or breed 2 coated dogs together, that is the reason behind it. 

I still don't see any reason for someone to intentionally breed a long coat, unless they were doing it specifically hoping to produce more long coats. The coated dog may be a great dog, certainly.. But there are plenty of well qualified, well bred dogs out there who will bring the same traits to the puppies, and don't have the extra fluff. Why not use them instead? 

-Chris


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
I had a breeder tell me once that every now and then you need a long coat in the gene pool as that is what developed the stock coat as we know it now. 


[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite right. The normal stock coat is genetically dominant, and is by far the most common coat type. 

Having recessive long coat genes is part of what contributes to the "Plush" coat that is so highly valued in the German show ring. Those dogs are still technically stock coats, but their hair is thicker, longer and fuller than most normal stock coats. 

Because they want the plush coat, the genes for long coats are maintained because having those genes in the background contributes to the plush coat. And this is why German Show line breeders tend to produce a lot of long coat and long stock coat puppies. The working lines and American show lines, who don't strive for the plush coat thus produce far fewer long coated pups.

-Chris


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## Kayos and Havoc

Thanks Chris. I appreacite the explanation. Although I don't breed and really have no interest in doing so I pop in on this board because I learn from you guys that do this the right way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif


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## gsdsar

Although I can be no where near as eloquent as Chris on this matter, IMHO we dont get to pick and choose what part of the standard we like and dont like. the standard is juts that, and it is there for a reason.

As for other breeds with long hair still working, you are right, but i.e. today i trained USAR with a lady that has 5 BC, all are true workign sheep dogs, thats what the lady does, she is a sheep farmer. he male that she is no also doing USAR with is a short coat. She mentioned that when she is in the market for another dog, if this one works out as USAR, then she will need a new farm dog, that it has to be short coat, cause the longer haired dogs just get too many burrs and it is a pain to keep their coat in normal condition. this from a working sheep farmer, she knows what is practical and what is not. And they dont even have the thick caot like a LCGSD would have.


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## Prinzsalpha

I belive in the ckc the regulations and rules for longhairs are different. I purposely sought out a Altdeutscher Schaeferhund. With the correct lines there can be a market for them . I believe in Europe they are strongly lobbying for their own niche in the dog world. It is only here in America where there are set guidelines and certain conformations regarding the longhairs.


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## eichenluft

They are strongly lobbying for their own niche in the dog world, because long-hairs are a fault to the standard, and not allowed for breeding in Europe. Same with whites - sure you can make your own "niche" or your own special registration for the fault that you think is pretty (and yes long-hairs are very pretty) but that doesn't make it correct to the standard of the BREED. Long-hairs are a fault, period. That doesn't mean long-hairs can't work, can't make supurb pets, are not gorgeous or healthy or awesome SAR dogs. Just means they shouldn't be bred, can't be bred in Europe (without their own "niche made especially for them). NOT good for the BREED to do this sort of thing.

molly


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## Spitfire22

Chris, you mentioned the recessive long coat gene that many showline breeders covet. Please view the pic below , would this be a "plush" coat? or is this borderline long coat.

http://www.canisphere.com/gallery/Canisp..._H_E_ZW86_stand



Cheers


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## eichenluft

The dog in this picture is a normal stock coat. Nowhere near long-stock or "plush".


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## Spitfire22

Thank-You!

I would like to see a pic of a plush coat if anyone has one.


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## Prinzsalpha

I actually find it pretty humorous that so many in the gsd world have such an attitude toward longhair or for that matter white gsds. It seems obvious to me that if the dog carries the gene for these that it is just meant to be. Why are longhair acceptable in most breeds but not with the gsds?Long hairs have been and are actual the original herding stock. It is not until the Americans decided to create their own look that they try to dissuade others into thinking that anything but the American look is a default.I have a altedeutscher Schaeferhund and actually sought it out.I though think all gsds are gorgeous and plan on promoting the breed by explaining their heritage and how they have come to the standard they are now. Its amazing how many people approach me just because he is so beautiful and different.


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## Barb E

[ QUOTE ]
It is not until the Americans decided to create their own look that they try to dissuade others into thinking that anything but the American look is a default 

[/ QUOTE ] 
Isn't coat length part of the original standard?


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## gsdsar

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is not until the Americans decided to create their own look that they try to dissuade others into thinking that anything but the American look is a default 

[/ QUOTE ] 
Isn't coat length part of the original standard? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know- I know the true long coat without the undercoat has not been allowed for a very long time, but the coat with and undercoat was recently banned from breeding.


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
I have a altedeutscher Schaeferhund and actually sought it out. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. But we're talking about GSDs. Different breed.

Some of the original herding dogs used to create the breed were long coated, yes. Some were wirecoated. Some short coated. Some double coated like our GSDs today. There were some that were floppy eared too, and they came in a rainbow of colors. That's not the point. The point is that when the breed itself was created, certain aspects of those foundation dogs were desireable to maintain, and others were not. That's what creating a breed is all about.

The breed standard calls for the stock coat. A long coat without an undercoat is a handicap for a dog working outside in all types of weather and has been outlawed by the standard for quite sometime. A long coat with an undercoat (technically long stock coat) was only relatively recently banned from breeding in Germany.

[ QUOTE ]
It is only here in America where there are set guidelines and certain conformations regarding the longhairs. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

[ QUOTE ]
It is not until the Americans decided to create their own look that they try to dissuade others into thinking that anything but the American look is a default. 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is entirely false. Under the American (AKC) standard, the long coat is a fault, but not disqualified. It is the Germans who consider it disqualification from breeding, and have for a long, long time.


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## wolfstraum

The "look" that the American ring has developed has nothing to do with long coats....

the breed is just a few years more than 100 years old. And yes, anything different is often admired! Blues and livers, coats, whites...I have seen some very attactive coats, but that does not make them correct!!!!

Lee


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
Blues and livers, coats, whites...I have seen some very attactive coats, but that does not make them correct!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Doesn't make them any less wonderful dogs either. Just not breeding stock.

Two of my favorite "looks" for GSDs are solid blue and longcoated sable. Love them. I'd just never breed them. If one cropped up sometime and I was looking for another dog, and didn't want a breeding prospect.. it might come home with me.


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## EastGSD

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blues and livers, coats, whites...I have seen some very attactive coats, but that does not make them correct!!!!


[/ QUOTE ]


Chris, ever seen a solid blue longcoat? Or a solid liver longcoat? Striking....very beautiful. 

Cherri
Exactly. Doesn't make them any less wonderful dogs either. Just not breeding stock.

Two of my favorite "looks" for GSDs are solid blue and longcoated sable. Love them. I'd just never breed them. If one cropped up sometime and I was looking for another dog, and didn't want a breeding prospect.. it might come home with me. 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## Sara

This may sound a silly/dumb but I don't understand this part of what you said, so could you explain (thanks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif) [ QUOTE ]
can't be bred in Europe (without their own "niche made especially for them).

[/ QUOTE ]


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## eichenluft

This may sound a silly/dumb but I don't understand this part of what you said, so could you explain (thanks ) 
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can't be bred in Europe (without their own "niche made especially for them).


Whites, blues, long-hairs, etc are all faults to the standard of the GSD. Therefore in Europe, though they are allowed to be worked/trained/titled - they are not allowed to be breed surveyed, and they are not allowed to be bred. "Their own niche made especially for them" means - there are separate registries created by people who like these faults, breed for them and register the resulting pups with their own "special" registry. There is a separate long-coated GSD registry in Germany, they put on their own breed surveys and puppies are registered with whatever that separate registry is called. In this country, "rare breeds" such as the long-coated oversize GSD called "Shiloh" or "King" Shepherds, have their own registry or they can even register with UKC or CKC or another registry that allows them to join in.

molly


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## Sara

thanks for explaining that for me Molly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


sara /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


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## wolfstraum

Sort of like "**** a poos" or "labradoodles" - but coming from one breed of purebred instead of two. Just that in Germany, you can't breed without meeting certain performance tests and clearnaces and get papers at all. ]

Lee


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## Yvette

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a altedeutscher Schaeferhund and actually sought it out. 


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Ok. But we're talking about GSDs. Different breed. 



[/ QUOTE ] 
Just eduacating some of us that don't know...
altedeutscher Schaeferhund 



"Old German Shepherd" refers to the working sheep and cattle-herding dogs of Germany. Varying in type, these dogs were the foundation used in the development of the modern registered German Shepherd Dog. While the SV-registered dogs came to have a more standardized appearance and came to be bred more as police, service, companion and show dogs, herdsmen in Germany continued to breed their sheep and cattle dogs as they always had. The Old German Shepherds remained unregistered and were bred solely for the usefulness in herding. Appearance, not being a consideration, remained variable. 

Coats may be short, medium-length, or long; shaggy, wiry, or smooth-textured. Colors include black, black-and-tan, shades of brown or red, grey, blue merle, brindle, or white. Ears are semi-erect, erect, or sometimes folded close to the head. Old German Shepherds are characterized by their hardiness, endurance and easy-keeping qualities. They can be found throughout Germany. 

One type, the Westerwaelder Cowdog, became noted as a distinct strain. This dog has a natural heeling tendency (nipping low at the heels of the animals) and typically has a medium- long, hard coat of red-brown with black shadings. Used for herding large groups of cattle, taking them to and from the villages and keeping them together on unfenced pastures, it was also employed in sheepherding. 

As itinerant sheepherding and open-field cattle herding have declined in Germany, the Old German Shepherd and Westerwaelder Cowdog have diminished in numbers. Today the German Society for the Preservation of Old and Endangered Domestic Animal Breeds lists them as critically endangered. It is to be hoped that attention can be given to these fascinating, hard-working dogs and that they will be preserved. 

Below are some examples of German herding dogs from early in the century. Dogs like these were registered by the SV and figured among the ancestors of the modern German Shepherd Dog. Similar dogs continued on as working dogs and are still to be found in Germany in all their variations.
[image]http://www.herdingontheweb.com/oldgerm1.jpg [/image] 
























Information and photos of Old German Shepherds as well as of many herding beeds of the world can be found in the book (in German) Hirten- und Huetehunde by Karl Hermann Finger, Eugen Ulmer GmbH & Co., 1988.

Herding On the Web


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## Maedchen

"They are strongly lobbying for their own niche in the dog world, because long-hairs are a fault to the standard"

Yeah, but because of what? Because only one hundred years ago ONE person had the OPINION it would be better for the working dog to have a shorter coat--mind you the longhaired was around before the short version and nobody complained or cared about and it did excellent work. What about all the other shepherds with long coat like Birards, Collies, Beardies just to name a few. What if now a person walks by and creates a "standard" which doesn't allow such and such. In my opinion Stephanitz is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/19_thumbdown.gif . There was a time were people believed the earth was flat too, but don't tell me a GSD can't work properly bc his coat is longer.
And anyway if the LC is such undesired example of a German shepherd Dog why not make sure that you absolutly don't produce one? But no, showline breeders still make a nice $ on LC's aswell although they should be so ashamed of themselves by creating such undesirable object that they should give it away in the middle of the night for only a small fee. But dare someone who actually wants to breed a LC. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif
I'm in love with the longcoats since I'm a child and I used to see them work too and I really give peanuts about what Stephanitz thinks bc he's WRONG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/03_wink.gif
Excluding the Longhaired from the breed is discrimination because he has ALWAYS been a part of the German Shepherd Dog and will always be and in my opinion its good that some people got together and created their own verein. And anyway -Just look at the SV dogs today--show me a show dog who doen't look crippled--and even the germans call them frogs---was this was Stephanitz had in mind for the breed? Is this the TOTAL GSD one is thriving for? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/19_thumbdown.gif
I know this has nothing to do with the LC in general, just wanted to point out some sign.changes within the breed since Steph.time, but nobody seems to complain about that.


----------



## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
ONE person had the OPINION it would be better for the working dog to have a shorter coat


[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. Neat thing about creating your own breed. You get to make the rules.


----------



## Mike R

Here's a thought. If you like LC's so much, come up with a name, a standard, pool together some breeders to form the foundation, create a stud book, keep meticulous records, then petition the FCI & AKC to recognize it as a separate breed.

It's not acceptable according to the GSD standard, so should be removed from the gene pool of breeding dogs (as should whites, blues, livers, dogs with poor pigment, dogs with poor nerves, etc etc). Pretty simple.


----------



## Prinzsalpha

If we did they would be the original german shepherds.Not what the breed has come to be with all its problems and imperfections.


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## wolfstraum

there was NO "original" GSD - the breed was created by Max vS using many other regional breeds and types of dogs who were not all of whome were "registered breeds", yes, some of which were coated...he did not choose to include coats or whites or blues or livers and had a blueprint in mind for both appearance and character. It takes more than one generation to set type and selectively breed a consistant type. It is an ongoing labor of love to breed dogs complying with Max's vision and the standard. 

IMO the problems in the breed come from people who think they should do what they like and ignore Max's vision of the standard for the breed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/09_mad.gif In particular, those who are more concerned with coat length and color to the exclusion of the balance of all qualities described in the standard. I am always astounded that people want to remake the breed in their own vision instead of following the standard!!!! If you don't like the breed as per the standard, find another breed that fits your ideals more closely!!! Collies are coated herding dogs...there are Kings and Shilohs that someone thought fit their ideals better than Max's dog.....perhaps you might be happier with one of those??????

Lee


----------



## selzer

Yes, there are Kings and Shilohs, I agree with that. I don't particularly want the breed to change either, but the standard changes. And some of the standard's changes over the years have not helped the breed. Maybe, it is not the standard, but what is "in" in the show ring, i.e. severe angulation. 

I also think that temperament has changed in the past couple of decades. And that might be because of breeders quest to breed for this and not for that. Long coats are normal, unlike floppy ears or curly tails. They are just not shown. The white shepherd fanciers have their own shows I believe. If there is enough of a following, maybe long coat fanciers could start something like that. 

Times change. Max had a wonderful vision and the breed is great the way it is for most of us. All the different breeds have changed from their original purposes, sizes, etc. The English setter's show line in considerably larger than the field line. And the dogs even hunt somewhat differently. Change really is inevitable particularly because the attitude about breeding dogs is to only breed if you feel you can improve the breed. What one person (who is not Max) thinks is an improvement or a refinement, may be to another (who is not Max) an abomination. 

So don't get all hot about it Wolfstraum. The white shepherd fancy hasn't hurt us. Neither will long coats.


----------



## wolfstraum

The standard describes the ideals of the breed. It really changes very little through the years, yes there is an evolution to the breed, but it still is defined by a standard. Breeding off colors, coats etc is NOT anywhere within the parameters of hte standard. Changes and splits in the [and any] breed to accomodate special interests is not in the best interest of the breed. 

There are thousands of unwanted GSDs in this country. Breeding "just because", breeding to personal taste without regard to the standard and understnading the balance and qualities defined by a standard, breeding for egos sake - to get a dog just like the one someone had as a kid, breeding for a quick buck...none of these are justifiable from an idealists standpoint!!! The crass commercialism of breeders all over the net touting "rare" colors, coats and over, under sized, and other variations of the breed are something to be concerned about if you are a true follower of the breed. What you are condoning is building a house disregarding the specs that make it fit together safely and smoothly! Just throwing it together at random. Breeding is an attempt to match up complimetnary animals with compensatory qualities in order to come as close as possible to the standard.


Lee


----------



## Fast

[ QUOTE ]


IMO the problems in the breed come from people who think they should do what they like and ignore Max's vision of the standard for the breed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/09_mad.gif In particular, those who are more concerned with coat length...

[/ QUOTE ]

But Max always allowed the longcoat.


----------



## khurley

[ QUOTE ]
But Max always allowed the longcoat. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Is that correct? Max led the group that promoted German Shepherds from 1899 to 1935, the long-coat was "out-lawed", so to speak, in 1915. Wouldn't that mean the decision to call the long-coat a flaw was made under Max's direction?


----------



## wolfstraum

there is a difference between allowing the long coat to be registered fully and using the dog with a long coat or any other to help fix and establish the specific traits of the breed - and with anything, you have to try to get the positives and then weed out the negatives.

Lee


----------



## Fast

I don't know where you got the date of 1915. AKC thing maybe?

The SVand FCI disallowed the the longcoat in the mid 90's.


----------



## Fast

[ QUOTE ]
there is a difference between allowing the long coat to be registered fully and using the dog with a long coat or any other to help fix and establish the specific traits of the breed - and with anything, you have to try to get the positives and then weed out the negatives.

Lee 

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The meaning of your post is unclear.


----------



## khurley

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know where you got the date of 1915. AKC thing maybe?


[/ QUOTE ] 

I've seen a reference to 1915 in a couple of places. Read here

dog breed info 

under origin. Unless they're referring to the wire coat?


----------



## Fast

Hmmm....I don’t know. Maybe they are writing about the wire-haired. I would take the info on that page with a grain of salt anyway. There are way too many opinions and inaccuracies to take it with any seriousness.


----------



## khurley

O.K., I researched it further. The long-coat without the undercoat was no longer allowed in breeding by the early 1900's, but the long-coat with undercoat was until the 1990's. Perhaps this is what they're referring to.


----------



## Maedchen

From what I understand the LC was only "not desired" under Stephanitz but still allowed. In 1991 the FCI declared the longcoat as absolut fault. That is also the reason why until now the integration of the LSVD (SV for LC) into the VDH had been refused.


----------



## Fast

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understand the LC was only "not desired" under Stephanitz but still allowed. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What leads you to this understanding?


----------



## wolfstraum

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there is a difference between allowing the long coat to be registered fully and using the dog with a long coat or any other to help fix and establish the specific traits of the breed - and with anything, you have to try to get the positives and then weed out the negatives.

Lee 

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The meaning of your post is unclear. 

[/ QUOTE ]



You have to look at the whole picture to see the progression. 

MvS used a wide variety of foundation stock...theoretically, some used had 80% of what he wanted to bring in, while others may only have had 10% of their qualities that he wanted and could not find elsewhere! So to get that 10% he had to take the qualities he did not desire and attempt to breed those away in the future, while retaining the 10% that he desired from that dog. {this is the same way the Germans developed warm blood horse breeds!} So, apparently the white herding dogs had some qualities he wanted, and he used them, figuring that the white color could be weeded out in subsequent generations. The coats were present in many of the foundation dogs apparently, as evidenced by their continued production...to eradicate them would be counter productive as they go hand in hand with too many desireable traits...and are too widespread throughout the genetic population. 

Don't the mal people just have a logical approach??? Breed 2 mals, if you get a coat, you put it in the Tuerv registry, and if you breed 2 Tuervs, and get a short coat, you register it as a Mal - the black coats - go into the Groendal registry.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif

Lee


----------



## Fast

[ QUOTE ]


Don't the mal people just have a logical approach??? Breed 2 mals, if you get a coat, you put it in the Tuerv registry, and if you breed 2 Tuervs, and get a short coat, you register it as a Mal - the black coats - go into the Groendal registry.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif

Lee 

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's not correct.


----------



## wolfstraum

hmmmm - someone just advertised a Tuerv pup from 2 mals on a bunch of schutzhund oriented lists....

lee


----------



## eichenluft

[ QUOTE ]
Don't the mal people just have a logical approach??? Breed 2 mals, if you get a coat, you put it in the Tuerv registry, and if you breed 2 Tuervs, and get a short coat, you register it as a Mal - the black coats - go into the Groendal registry.... 

Lee 

Fast wrote: No, that's not correct 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I don't know about black Tuervs being registered in the Belgian Sheepdog registry (have never heard of a black puppy in a Tuerv litter so maybe that's why) - but the rest of this statement is correct, according to some working Mali/Tuerv people I know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif

Molly


----------



## Fast

No, your Terv/Mal people are incorrect also. In fact the Groenendael to Terv breeding is the second most popular inter-variety breeding.


----------



## djpohn

One of our club members had a litter of Mal's, one was long haired - she is called a "Terv", but is not registered with the AKC as a Terv and can't be shown as a Terv. She is out of 2 "Mals". I was told to be registered as a Terv, the pup must be out of Terv parents. (correct me if I am wrong)


----------



## Fast

If you breed two Mals and you get a long coat you can’t register the dog as a Terv here in the US. The dog must be registered as a Mal. In the FCI countries all of the dogs are just Belgian Shepherds and there is no separate registry for each variety. 

If you breed two Tervs you will not get any short coats.

A short coated black dog is not a Mal, It’s just an off color Belgian.

There are strict rules governing what varieties can breed bred to which other varieties. For instance, you can’t breed a Mal or Laekenois to a Groenendael because of the aforementioned off color dogs.


----------



## eichenluft

You are right, according to AKC - but I was referring to FCI/European registrations. Here is a note from my friend who knows a lot more about Mal/Tuerv etc to explain.

quote - "The AKC has different rules for the 4
Belgian varieties than mainland Europe &
Canada. I'll start with AKC: it
recognizes the varieties as 3 distinct
breeds: Malinois, Tervuren, Groenendal
(it does not even recognize the
Laekenois-curly coat) which therefore
eliminates registering any puppy as a
different variety (even though it may
be). So, a "long-haired" Malinois born
from 2 Mals will be registered with the
AKC as a Malinois, 'long hair' not a Terv. Two
Tervuren cannot produce a Malinois
because they only carry the recessive
'long hair' gene (ss). 

2 Tervuren can indeed produce an all
black Terv, i.e. Groenendal. And in
keeping with the AKC is must be
registered as a Tervuren, long-hair
black.

These rules apply to puppies born of AKC
parents that are seeking AKC litter
applications. However the AKC will recognize an imported
Terv puppy that is born of Mal parents
so long as its 'legal' in the country of
its birth. For instance, I bought a
Malinois puppy from Canada whose mom was
a Mal & its dad was a Terv. He is
registered with the AKC as a Malinois.

Now with Cananda & Europe inter-variety breeding is allowed and may be done along these lines only: 
1.) Mal-Mal 2.)Mal-Terv 3.) Mal-Laken
4.) Terv-Terv 5.) Terv-Groen 6.)
Groen-Groen 7.) Laken-Laken *.) not sure
about Terv & Laken. These countries
recognize that a "long-haired" puppy
born from Malinois parents is a Terv and
can be registered as such. Same for
long-haired black born form 2 Tervs
(Groen).

Short hair is dominant over long hair. 
The color black is dominant over the
brown/red of Tervs. So if you mated a
Groen. & a Mal you would get some
short-haired, black Mals that are not
registerable in any country." end quote


----------



## Fast

My point was that a Belgian is never “registered” as an Terv, Mal etc. they are all registered as Belgians. The way Lee has it worded would mean that a black GSD would be registered as a black GSD, a longcoat would be registered as a longcoat, etc. But they are not they are registered as GSDs and a notation is made about color and coat. It is the same with Belgians but the combinations of coat type and color all have their own names. 

Tell your friend that you can't breed a Terv to a Laken because you can get a long wire coat.


----------



## ally2blake

hi,
well to start i favour the long coats to the short.
as i say this i have a lovely 11 week old short black and gold dog which i hope to use as a stud when he is older.
his mother was short and father long.
there were 3 shorts in the litter of 9.

as for long haired being a "fault" am sorry but u want ur head tested. i feel very strongly bout wot people think of the long coated dogs being considered a "fault" am sorry but would u put a short coat on the hills of germany to guard sheep cos i wouldnt . that is after all wot the shepherd was oragnally put together for.
its like putting a an dovanman in the show ring with a tail as the breed standerd calls for a short tail.
it surprizes me how many people will doctor or go to extremes to get a "perfect "dog that matches the breed standerd.
i have news for u THERE IS NO PERFECT DOG.
in response of the oragnal post if u put ur pup to a short coat when it gets older u will propbley get at least 1 short coated pup.
the only thing that should stop u if her comfamation is good and her temp is not putting her to a dog that is huge for ur bicth cos she may find it hard to hold him up and he may produce large pups that she my need help to delevaer.
u will not know if she is going to have diffeculty breeding if she has never had a litter before (miaden bitch)

this is coming from 6 years experance from me and 20 years breeding experance from my mum .
my mum also specalise in breeding the "dredded " long coats and they are booked before the bitch whelps the shorts take a bit longer to go.

so in closeing it dose not matter how long the coat is on the dog it shouldn`t stop u loving it any less or more
right i have had my say looks like we have opened a BIG CAN OF WORMS mybe we should put it to a vote?

thanks for listening.

ally and blake.from the uk.


----------



## SimplySleepie

Well, you're right about one thing...the length of the coat shouldn't make you love the dog any less. However, the breed standard exists for a reason and long coats are a fault. 
Short coats have double coats so it's not like the short coat would fail to keep the dog warm (if that's what you're implying with the field thing).

The long coats can be beautiful, but they are still a fault (and no, I don't need my head examined /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/08_rolleyes.gif )

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/31_paw.gif


----------



## ally2blake

hi,
well i feel the long coat is getting a bad rep here.
when there is nothing wrong with them if people shaved them they would look exactly like a short coat which has been cliped .lol

i also feel the breed standred should be changed to include long coats.
like i said i have nothing against short coats like i said i have a lovely short pup at my feet as we speak and wouldnt swap him for a long coat cos i fell in love with him
but i oraganly wanted a long coat.
i think some people think because yes loang coat is considered( i hate the word) "fault" that they dont get as muct repect as the short they are identcal other than the coat thing so should be treated the same in the show ring too.
oh and i do apogise if i offended anyone by the ( need ur head examine thing)it was <font color="blue"> </font> ment in fun. oh and for my spelling.

ally and blake.


----------



## Wetdog

Breed standard is the written guide agreed upon by a majority of the members of the organization making the breed standard. In the US, the AKC uses the standard set by the German Shepherd Club of America(AKC is a clerical and administrative business the handles paperwork and rules and regulations and oversees events for the member clubs), in UK it is set by the UK parent club member of the Kennel Club. There are other standards in use elsewhere, SV, FCI, World Union. Being a member of a parent club organization will usually mean that you have a say in what the standard is, either by direct vote or by representation. 
Standards are often similar but do not always agree. For instance, among Weimaraners in the US, long coat is allowed(registerable) but not prefered(not allowed to conformation show or field trial at AKC events)--similar to the long coat in the GSD. Elsewhere, throught the world, the long coat is allowed but often treated as a variety(judged seperately until the best of breed competition). Differing standards have differing ways of handling the same things.
Breed standards can and do change from time to time, depending on changing conditions and the standard setting authority.


----------



## sue2bear4me

sue


----------



## sue2bear4me

hi i breed long haired gsds and i have done for 20 years now all my dogs have a bubble coat and the coat is about 6-7 inches long i would post apick but dont now how to


----------



## blissirritated

[ QUOTE ]
It seems obvious to me that if the dog carries the gene for these that it is just meant to be. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, that got up my goat - does that mean that if a dog has a genetic disease and carries the gene for... a particular strain of cancer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif - then we should breed that dog because it's "meant to be"?


----------



## Prinzsalpha

Being long coated is not a disease it is and was a part of their genetic make-up.If you choose to have a gsd to fully comply to the standards that is fine but others choose longcoats.


----------



## wolfstraum

The whole issue is that there is a standard for the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

If you do not like the standard or agree with it - then IMO you should find a dog whose standard is what you want!!! You want a coat and you want to be a breeder - do Collies!!! Don't add to the problems of overpopulation by just doing your "own thing" when it is explicitly wrong by the breed standard /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/29_headbang.gif. 

The breed in the USA would be much better off if dogs who do not meet minimal requirements were not given papers!!!! Oh - I forgot - then people just make up a new registry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/28_geez.gif - like all the puppy millers have done to avoid doing DNA - or make up a new breed like the Pandas /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/29_headbang.gif

Bottom line - if you want to breed a German Shepherd Dog - follow the STANDARD of the breed as applied in the mother country of the breed. Coats, blues, livers, parti colors - NONE of these are acceptable - /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif but people pick one thing that they like off this list and condemn the people breeding the others /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/22_headscratch.gif - this is an all or nothing, black and white issue - follow the standard or get another breed whose standard you like and will follow - don't screw up the breed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/08_rolleyes.gif because of your personal tastes!!! And don't expect to be applauded and condoned and accepted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/09_mad.gif by breeders who love the breed and are appalled at the degredation of it by people who have no respect for the standard. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/29_headbang.gif

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that a Belgian is never “registered” as an Terv, Mal etc. they are all registered as Belgians. The way Lee has it worded would mean that a black GSD would be registered as a black GSD, a longcoat would be registered as a longcoat, etc. But they are not they are registered as GSDs and a notation is made about color and coat. It is the same with Belgians but the combinations of coat type and color all have their own names. 

Tell your friend that you can't breed a Terv to a Laken because you can get a long wire coat. 

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH??? that one comment pulled out of a longer post was NOT about GSDs - it was about the breakdown and practices in registering Mals Groendals and Turvs IN EUROPE - not AKC regulations - and the long post of quotes from a Mal person clarifed it furhter!

Lee


----------



## G-burg

[ QUOTE ]
The whole issue is that there is a standard for the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

If you do not like the standard or agree with it - then IMO you should find a dog whose standard is what you want!!! You want a coat and you want to be a breeder - do Collies!!! Don't add to the problems of overpopulation by just doing your "own thing" when it is explicitly wrong by the breed standard 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Amen to that!!

G-burg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/31_paw.gif


----------



## mnm

IMO Breeding a Long-Haired GSD is disrespectful to the breed. Many people say that they breed for the betterment of the breed, but then do not follow the guidelines set forth by the governing body of the original breed. (The SV) 

Just why do you want to breed an animal with faults? If you were in the livestock industry, meaning cattle or hogs, most people cull animals which do not meet the criteria for their programs. A cow that is barren once, maybe even twice in a row is sent to slaughter. A sow who consistantly throws pigs that rupture/prolapse will be culled from the breeding herd. The same principle applies to GSD's. If the bitch has problems whelping, she is culled from your breeding program. She might be a wonderful family member, but you don't keep breeding her. She should be spayed and then kept or given to someone else to love.

Breeding your Long Haired GSD, because you love her and want to have puppies from her is irresponsible as an owner and breeder, because you are breeding a fault that is against the standards of the breed. No one is going to fine you for it, but as it has been said several times before in thread, it is against the standard of the 
German Shepherd. 

That is the bottom line and regardless of your own personal feelings towards your own dog, you should respect what the German Shepherd is and adhere to the breed's guidelines.


----------



## KHN

^ That was the best, most constructive post I have seen in this thread so far. The emotion of whether or not one prefers a certain look, or loves their LC family pet, needs to be removed from the equation. Breed within the standard, to better the breed, or don't breed at all. Of course, nmn said it much better than I did.


----------



## Chris Wild

Very good post, Marsha.

It should also be mentioned that one doesn't have to support a breeder who intentionally thumbs his nose at the standard to find a non-standard dog. Long coats (and off colors and just about any other trait you can think of) do occasionally crop up in all bloodlines. Someone wanting a long coat, for example, can go to just about any German Show line breeder and they won't have much of a wait for a long coat puppy as they are very common in that type of GSD. 

If someone prefers the look of a long coat and wants one, that's fine. But please support the breeders who are breeding quality dogs to the standard, not those who are ignoring the standard for reasons of personal preference and financial gain. And please spay or neuter your long coat.


----------



## nimh

Had to jump in here. I have a long coated male. Our breeder does NOT breed for long coats, but as Chris mentioned they do come up sometimes if both dogs have the recessive gene. We love our pup to death and couldn't have asked for a better dog, but we KNEW when we bought him that the long coat was a fault in the GSD standard, and we purchased him on a neuter contract as a pet only.

I do have to say though, I'm glad we're past the point where people would "cull" pups born with faults (e.g. blues)!


----------



## selzer

They used to cull the whites and the blues and the livers. Now, they would like to set up a separate breed for white German Shepherd Dogs. Is it right??? Is is it wrong??? I am not an expert on the whites, I have never owned one and do not want to. I have heard they are at higher risk for certain issues and many have poor temperaments; then I heard that the first argument is unfounded and the second is because of the quality of breeding which came to be because the breeders were no longer held to any standard as their animals were rejected for show anyway. Thus poor and indiscriminate breeding policies can abound as no one is going for a show quality dog. 

What is the reason the long coat was considered undesireable? If the long coat has no undercoat then I can understand it being a fault, but what about long coats that do have an undercoat? 

I think a dog with exaggerated angulation is much worse than a dog with a long coat with an undercoat. One will win in the ring, one will be rejected. Why? When the first dog runs it may not have a level transmission as the standard requires, does anyone care? No. It wins. 

I do not own any long coats and never intend to, but there is a following for them. Where there is a following, savvy buisness-minded individuals will try to meet the demand. Does it truly do the breed a favor to reject these dogs, blues, livers, and whites? If livers are connected to a bad gene that causes most of them to die out, there are few breeders who would try to go into breeding them anyway, and eliminating them from the standard makes some sense. Blues are diluted, and even if they were not rejected, their chances of winning in the near future are slim. 

But whites and long coats are not a passing fancy. Both have a following and the demand for them exists. Where there is a demand, the supply will follow, why not try to improve the supply instead of limiting it to a few true fanciers and a hoard of greedy oportunists. 

I do not feel that white shepherds or long coated shepherds will hurt the breed if these were no longer disqualifying faults. Truly, I could care less about long coats as I don't like the idea of dealing with the added grooming they would require, but as they do crop up out of ordinary litters, it makes more sense to allow them than to reject them. In the current system, only those dogs whose breeders are free with breeding rights on the puppies they sell would allow a long coat to go to anyone wishing to breed them. Thus the quality of the long coated dogs bred by these dogs would likely be less than those who in their ultimate wisdom demand that these animals be spayed or neutered. 

Coat color and coat length are a matter of individual taste, only the beauty which is in the eye of the beholder is affected by these two things. I would think we would have bigger fish to fry than color and coat length, like things that affect the ability of the dogs to do the work that they were bred to do: intelligence, temperament, drive, angulation and structure, height and weight.... 

So, that is my current opinion for what it is worth.


----------



## mnm

The last several posts have all been very good in my opinion. 

One thing that I didn't say before is that I do think the long-coated GSD's are very beautiful and they can do a variety of work. That in no way changes my opinion on breeding them. I also recognize that long coated pups appear in normal litters due to recessive genes from each parent. I do not find fault with the breeders when that happens unless they don't have a spay/neuter contract on the pup.

And yes, As Seltzer said - Where there is a demand, the supply will follow. 

Then we will know that the breeder is in it for the money, just like Ladradoodles and other mixed breeds which have become a fad that people want to become a registered breed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/30_nono.gif


----------



## Xeph

Ever tried tracking with a long coated Shepherd? Their feathering gets caught and matted in the brush. They pick up sticks and burrs, etc etc.

What about the Rough Collies then? The Rough Collie isn't as versatile a dog as the Shepherd, and thus, there is little need for them to do such things. But for a breed that does so much, our breed, that long coat just isn't practical.

Even if a longcoat has an undercoat, when that coat gets wet, all that extra hair will weight the dog down and collect mud a lot easier than a stock coat. Then you've got a slower dog and more of a mess to clean up, and a dog that will eventually, in my opinion, tire more quickly due to the fact that water just does not roll off a long coat as easily as a short one.


----------



## Caitlin

I have a question. What would you all think of the longcoats being made into a separate breed? And why was the longcoat with undercoat disallowed in the 90's? 

Not trying to start an argument, just interested. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


----------



## alex9179

Your interest wouldn't have anything to do with Mali, would it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif 

Good question, since the long-haired varieties of other breeds are recognized by the show community already. I believe the LHs weren't viewed as a fault and just seperated out in those examples, though. I think the likelyhood that AKC will admit a "mistake", and create a category for the LH GSD after disallowing it, isnt very good.

Not necessarily relevent, but I saw "K9 to Five" yesterday and a LH GSD was profiled for it's SAR work in South Africa. Really impressive talent.


----------



## Wildtim

I'll thy to answer your questions but someone with a little more SV political savy might know better
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question. What would you all think of the longcoats being made into a separate breed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine but they aren't GSD's according to the current standard

[ QUOTE ]
And why was the longcoat with undercoat disallowed in the 90's? 

Not trying to start an argument, just interested. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was dissallowed because the leaders of the organization saw a bad trend starting: 
the longest plushiest coats were winning in the ring, so people who wanted to win bred longer plushier coats than last years winners etc... 
At that point the heads of the SV said enough is enough and this is just getting silly so NO MORE long coated shepherds this isn't what the breed is about and we don't want it to become so. As they have the athority to do that it became so. A similar problem happened back in the twenties if I remember correctly, the longest dogs ware then being picked as winners in the ring and so ... but back then Max had the final say as to who won the German national title. So rather than change the written standard he just kept picking the shortest dog entered and after a couple of years the look of the breed moved back towards what he liked. Too bad there isn't someone with that kind of vision around today to head things up (not that the politics would let them).


----------



## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
And why was the longcoat with undercoat disallowed in the 90's? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Long coats of both varieties have always been frowned upon. While a long stock coat is more utilitarian than a long coat, it is still at a large disadvantage compared to the normal stock coat. 

The long stock coat was allowed, much the way dogs that are slightly over/undersized, missing a premolar, etc... are still allowed. It was automatic KKL2, but permissible under the idea of "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". If the dog had other good qualities to contribute, it might be worth breeding, but the coat should be taken into consideration and effort made to eliminate that flaw.

This changed in the 90s because there was no longer a need for it. The gene pool was large enough, and the breed global enough with modern communication and transportation technology meaning that breeders were no longer limited to the dogs in their immediate area. So the unfavorable trait could be eliminated without affecting the quality of the dogs.

I'm sure the ridiculous number of long coats of both varieties that have been croping up in recent years due to the all consuming quest for the plush coat had a lot to do with that decision.


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]
A similar problem happened back in the twenties if I remember correctly, the longest dogs ware then being picked as winners in the ring and so ... but back then Max had the final say as to who won the German national title. So rather than change the written standard he just kept picking the shortest dog entered and after a couple of years the look of the breed moved back towards what he liked. Too bad there isn't someone with that kind of vision around today to head things up (not that the politics would let them). 

[/ QUOTE ]

Back in the early days the Sieger show performed a much different function than it does now. Now, it supposedly names the dog who most closely represents the standard, and should get bred, bred, bred. Back then, it represented the dog who demonstrated the characteristics that were found lacking in the breed as a whole. Naming that dog sieger meant he'd be bred a lot, and hopefully those traits improved. 

Hence why when the dogs were getting too large and square, the sieger selected was the shortest, longest dog there.... 1925 Sieger Klodo v Boxberg.


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## Wildtim

she always corrects me at home too


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## Barb E

[ QUOTE ]
she always corrects me at home too 

[/ QUOTE ]
I wondered if we were going to have a "Wild debate" here
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


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## Lauri & The Gang

Look at it this way.

Why not breed Shepherds with ears that don't stand up? It obviously doesn't keep Labs from working, nor Cockers or any other drop-eared breeds. It doesn't make a GSD any less a dog - they can still work, still perform all the functions they were bred to do.

But it DOES go against what the founders of the breed decided was 'correct' for the breed.

So you have to decide - are you going to breed true to the breed or not?

I have no problem if people want to 'create' a new breed. Heck, I'd have much more respect for the 'Doodle' breeders out there if they WERE going for breed recognition. It's a long, involved road to 'make' a breed the RIGHT way. Creating and maintaining a Stud book, breeding generation after generation until you can breed true to type - it's a labor of love for people that truly want their 'breed' recognized.

But unfortunately most of those breeders are in it for the money and could care less about type and such. I was at a local dog show over the weekend and they had so many people asking "where's the Labradoodles" they had to put up signs saying there was NO such breed. They said they would have a booth at the next show specifically to address 'designer breeds' and such.


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## Wetdog

OK, here is a question for you all. I have a reason for asking.

If I prefer long coated GSD's and they are allowed in the standard of almost every other country in the world except the US, would you all be telling me that I am destroying the breed, and that I should choose a different breed or move to another country?


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## Chris Wild

[ QUOTE ]


If I prefer long coated GSD's and they are allowed in the standard of almost every other country in the world except the US, would you all be telling me that I am destroying the breed, and that I should choose a different breed or move to another country? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's not true. Under the SV standard they cannot be breed surveyed, and thus cannot be bred. They are still registerable. Under the AKC standard they are not disqualified, but simply considered a fault. They can and do compete in AKC conformation shows. And of course under the AKC, anything can be bred whether it fits the standard or not.

People who prefer long coats have plenty of good options to choose from to purchase one. Breeders who are breeding for the overall benefit of the breed, and to the standard, but just happen to have the occasional long coat. While I do not agree with intentionally breeding long coats, there are worse things. If I had to choose, I'd take a pup from someone intentionally breeding long coats that are thoroughly health tested, OFAed, and performance titled to prove temperament before I'd take a pup bred to the standard by a breeder who can't bother with any of the above. But there are plenty of breeders who do breed to the standard and do all the health testing and titling of their breeding stock.. many of whom have the occasional long coat pup.


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## eichenluft

I have a litter of 7 puppies - 6 of them are normal-coats, one is a long-coat. I have them in a kennel right now with shavings on the concrete area, then grass. Yesterday it rained, and there was mud. I called the puppies out for their meal, and 6 clean puppies came, and one that looked like the swamp monster. She had mud everywhere, stuck to her belly, legs, tail - and white pine shavings attached to every part of her body, even her ears. Just a complete mess. And so that's my input on why the long-coats are a fault - they are not 'wash and wear' like the breed is meant to be - far from it! I'll be picking shavings out of her coat for weeks.

molly


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## Wetdog

You are touching on many of the arguements that are running through my mind Chris.

There should be no breed where coat length is the single and overriding defining characteristic. There are so many other considerations that are far more important in my opinion. 
I also have Weimaraners. In this house, with standard coats, the GSD's are the long hairs. Anyway, Audry completed her final certificaate and is now triple international Baltic States Champion and Working Class Certified, so Irena and I are thinking about males to breed her to. One strong possibility is a long coat carrier, so there is a good possibility we'd have at least some long coats in the litter(a long coat Weim looks very similar to a grey Irish Setter). We'd kind of like to keep a Langhaar puppy if we have some, but people here are outraged at the thought--like "THE STANDARD" is one of the commandments given to Moses engraved in stone or something. The US is the only country that does not recognize Langhaars. If we do keep a Langhaar, we'll show it in Europe, it does nothing to affect the breed here.

As for moving to another country--that might be a possibility too, just might do that next year, we'll just have to see what happens. Living in Europe for awhile wouldn't hurt my feelings any. I'll probably be shipping Riga(GSD) to Irena to show in Europe before too long.


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## Prinzsalpha

You are funny wetdog!!


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## Maedchen

" There should be no breed where coat length is the single and overriding defining characteristic. There are so many other considerations that are far more important in my opinion."

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif Wetdog!
I know of a GSD working line breeder in Germany who wouldn't hesitate breeding with a LH should he have exceptional qualities. After all its a GSD. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/03_wink.gif


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## K9mom

I understand what ya'll are trying to say. BUT, I wonder then why some of you "elite" "by the book" breeders are breeding dogs from litters where many siblings were Long Haired. They carry the same genes my friends. You should be Spaying/Neutering those dogs if they are going to produce such undesirable pups according to the standard. I have a LH sibling to a well titled Blk Bitch many of you have bred (she seems to be passed around, the poor girl) and I know ya'll got coated pups.


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## kutzro357

Wow I rarely see Tim`s posts.


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## WiscTiger

K9Mom, if you spayed and neutered every GSD that produced some coats there would be no gene pool left to bred with. Since I am still in learning mode, I think the gene pool is limited enough. Since the LC gene came into the gene pool with some of the original dogs, I believe it would be pretty tough to get rid of. Personally I believe that there are bigger problems in the breed besides the number of LC's that are produced.

Breeders are so afraid of admitting there is a problem or too greedy, or kennel blind, or just plain uneducated; that it is nearly impossible to try to get honest information.

Val


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## GSDolch

Im sorry, i just gotta post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/15_ssst.gif

first..wow..just, wow, this thread started..a loooong time ago /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif

My views, are kind of on the fence. To be honest, the way I look at it, the breed has many more problems than the length of coat it has. Talking about this one and only thing..i'll be honest. If I had a LC that had good structure, a good temperment, health was cleared and it had some sort of working titles..I would consider breeding it. The partner to the dog would also be selected on these same abilities, not the length of its coat. The same could almost be said for color, but, were talking about LC.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/13_puppy.gif

Flame if you want, but people are doing worse things to the GSD than just breeding long coats. I think its the ethics behind it, and some ethics ends up being a matter of opinion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif


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## DianaM

I used to think "if it produces long coats, don't breed it," but yes, that would indeed shrink the gene pool down to what, 13 individuals? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/07_tongue.gif Now I'm with the crowd that doesn't mind a longcoat but won't breed it unless not breeding the dog would deprive the breed of the best genes ever (aside from the coat). I've groomed my fair share of coated dogs and when there's something stuck in the coat, that's where you're spending your next couple hours. I can see why they originally wanted a stock coat. Longcoats do look great but they simply aren't practical.

Dena and Keefer (Cassidy's Mom's dogs) always look impeccable, though. Maybe a Teflon-coated dog sneaked into the gene pool? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


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## Wiesenland

IMHO, if a dog/bitch has all the desired qualities, has excellent hip/elbow scores and comes from a great line [working/show] then why not. By choosing the "mate" carefully - as with any mating - why not?

In fact this year we will be mating a "long" coat girl.
Her breeding is impeccable, going back through Vasall vom Kirschental, *her hips and elbow scores are 0:0 and she has C.D.X. and T.D. titles - working fast to her T.D.X. and A/Tracking Championship and U.D. Title*
Why wouldn't we breed with her? No idea


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## DianaM

Big congrats to all those titles! She looks a bit roach backed, though maybe that's the stack? The OB titles and hip scores are great. Have you tried her in schutzhund to see how she'd do in that?


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## cliffson1

By all means breed that bitch if you are so inclined. She is gorgeous and she wouldn't have the level of accomplisments you have on her if she wasn't sound. 
I would do my homework as to finding a stud that hasn't demonstrated carrying the LC gene or over a long period of breeding has found that fault to be extremely infrequent. If you do and the male meets your other requirements, Fine!
The problem would be if you breed her to a male that is a LC carrier up close, then you intensify that fault for the puppies of future generations through this litter.
Congratulations on a real nice bitch!!


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## Wiesenland

Schutzhund is not accepted or condoned by the A.N.K.C. at this time in Australia.

But trust me, seeing her "protecting" her mum's car and house..she would be very acceptable in the trails. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif
Cheers,
Dianne


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## WiscTiger

OK, Di which one of the males is going to be the choosen one?

Val


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## Wiesenland

Well, hopefully she won't be mated until this young man is over 18months [the allowed age in Oz. for G.S.Ds to be bred from. ....and because Billie trilas her in Tracking during Winter she will want her [presumably] with her Tracking Championship minimum before mated. So more than likely later /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif

KYLAIN BLACK HAWK RISING[A][Z] "Karl" who hopefully will also be Titled by then. Hips 0:2 Elbows 0:0









He is a son of LUX von SATYR[A][Z][H][Imp. Ger.] Cl. 1 
*V. Kliff von Trollbachtal Kkl.1 SchH111 X V.A. Karat's Hela Kkl.1 SchH1* 
Karl's mother is from Australian Lines you probably wouldn't be aware of.


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## KariKeller

I am absolutely amazed and extremely disappointed that not once, in all the posts here, do any of you refer to your dog, or any dog, by their actual name!! 
Remember, love me-love my dog; man's best friend, soul-mate???? 

Hello-where's the love here? 

Kizer is 3 1/2. Hips and Elbows 0:0 He has earned is CGC, C.D. and C.D.X. 
Temperament is exceptional and the most gentle boy with all dogs and people.
I brush him, maybe, once a week, otherwise his hair is gorgeous and silky with no mats whatsoever!

According to my standards- It doesn't get any better than this!!


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## Wiesenland

[ QUOTE ]
KYLAIN BLACK HAWK RISING[A][Z] "Karl" who hopefully will also be Titled by then. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Um sorry mate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/11_confused.gif think you missed something, and if you read any of my posts and many other's here you will see [we] love and respect our dogs above most humans..sorry but my dogs are my best friends.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/24_hello.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/26_cheers.gif

Most people on this board wouldn't have a clue who I was refering too if I didn't give their registered names..even then I doubt they do...being from Oz.
Dianne


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## eichenluft

[ QUOTE ]
Kizer is 3 1/2. Hips and Elbows 0:0 He has earned is CGC, C.D. and C.D.X. 
Temperament is exceptional and the most gentle boy with all dogs and people.
I brush him, maybe, once a week, otherwise his hair is gorgeous and silky with no mats whatsoever!

According to my standards- It doesn't get any better than this!! 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Is Kizer a Shiloh Shepherd? He's beautiful - and I can see the Malamute strongly in him. There are long-coated Malamutes as well, could be where he got his coat from.

molly


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## WiscTiger

KariKeller, Kizer is a beautiful looking dog. My first GSD was very much like him, except he was all Black, he had the shorter legs, stocky body and nice small ears. Great personality, calm friendly but aloof, ball drive to die for and rock solid nerves.

Molly, my guy was all GSD no Shilo or Malamute. His mom was your typical nice late 70's - early 80's vintage AKC and dad was import working dog. Wish I could give you the lines but the sire was a working K9 that wasn't suppose to be breeding, so no papers.

Great dog, taught me a lot. 

KariKeller, enjoy your dog for what he is a great companion and family member.

Di has a very different situation living in OZ, as the gene pool isn't as open and diverse as it is in other countries. Also there is a big difference in the quality and being cloe to the standard. The sily coat is no where close to the standard.

Val


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## KariKeller

Like Val's shepherd, Kizer has no Shiloh or Malamute in his lines. 
Val-thank you for the sweet comments about my boy!!

Dianne-I may have come across a little strong in my first post so I apologize if I offended you. I feel certain every here does love their dogs more than humans!! I tell people I love Kizer more than life itself!!
I just feel sometimes we get so caught up in the little things and lose sight of the bigger ones.

Having a wonderful GSD (no matter what his/her coat looks like) is like experiencing Heaven on Earth!!


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## wolfstraum

Kizar is obviously a coated GSD! And I must admit, gorgeous - I can see why people love the coats - this is probably the nicest photo I have seen of a coat! Even though I would not want to own one because of participating in the sport and doing some breeding, I can appreciate the attractiveness of your boy!

Lee


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## Wiesenland

You are welcome KariKeller 
Dianne


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## Wiesenland

Just out of interest, seeing this thread is about breeding with long coats [can't resist the opportunity to show off my "fluffs" as they are called here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/23_hug.gif]

The Grand sire of our current *"Rikki"A/Grand Champion:Gipfel Silver Shadow[A][Z][H] * was a fluffy - he was *"Quanta" Jantaybri Hedon's Hope[A][Z][H] U.D.* 
........and was so obviously the sire of the following 2 dogs - *"SHADOW" A/Ch: Gipgel Quanta's Shadow[A][Z][H] C.G.C.* 










AND

Our favourite glamour boy *"B.J." AUSTRALIAN TRACKING CHAMPION:GIPFEL QUANTA'S IMAGE[A][Z][H] U.D. *







...
down the line there have only been past this first mating of "fluffy Quanta" to our girl there has been 3 fluffs from many progeny.

Here is another, a grand son..Bear









Why you may ask did I choose a fluff as a sire?
BLOODLINE
TEMPERAMENT/WORK ETHIC [which may have a different meaning here in Oz.]
COMFORMATION/MOVEMEMNT
SCORES....

so to the original poster don't hesitate if your choice is on sound foundation, you won't regret it, we haven't, not have all the families who have a wonderful companion and competition dog.

Cheers,

Dianne /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/26_cheers.gif


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## Amaruq

Dianne, I think your "fluffs" look more like plush stock coats to me not the longhair referred to earlier. I know there can be some that are borderline but they look more plush to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif


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## BCGSD

What does anyone think of Kalle vom Welzbachtal.
6xBSP, 3xWUSV, WUSV-Sieger 2002, BSP-3 2002, FCI-B.Q.-Sieger 2001, LGA-Sieger 2005, 2006 !!!!
http://www.sonorian.fi/WelzbachtalKallevomSukutaulu.htm
Would any of the working line breeders on this board breed to him even though he's a long coat?


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## DianaM

He looks very nice. If he brings all the good things to the table and the coat is the only issue, honestly I don't see a reason why not. He would have to be exceptional and noteworthy in the working department, IMO. Of course that's without seeing him work or even knowing anything more about the dog. I do have a question though: would being a longcoat inhibit any registrations or koreklassing or show ratings for his litters?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/63936.html
Easier to read pedigree that also includes points.


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## Wiesenland

Amaruq..your terminologies are a mystery to me LOL.

See them in the flesh..LOOOONG COATS WITH the required undercoats. Plush to me is a heavy -hmmm. "english type coat" gee how terms differ from country to country and we all speak english..LOL LOL.

Cheers,
Dianne


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## Wiesenland

DianaM ..No at this point in time "fluffs" maybe registered on the Main Register in Australia. Breed Survey ratings??? Who would know - our G.S.D.C.A. do some interesting things, I would not think that the coat would be an issue for children and grand children, but i really can't answer that one.

Fluffies CANNOT BE SHOWN in breed classes here, be they Specialty Shows or All Breed Shows, they can however be trialled and worked in all aspects of the field [herding/agility/tracking/obedience] without hinderence.

The "B.J." MAN in my post is de sexed due to injury and the 'BEAR" MAN is on Limited Registration - meaning he was sold as a pet but may be Worked in A.N.K.C.Trials, but not bred from, or shown. 

There are 3 levels of registration in Australia, which may well be a different thread. 2 for Purebred Dogs and 1 for Unregistered [pet/crosses] so they can compete in Trials.


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## Prinzsalpha

Beautiful Fluffies Dianne! I also have a coat and am partial to them.


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## Amaruq

[ QUOTE ]
Amaruq..your terminologies are a mystery to me LOL.

See them in the flesh..LOOOONG COATS WITH the required undercoats. Plush to me is a heavy -hmmm. "english type coat" gee how terms differ from country to country and we all speak english..LOL LOL.

Cheers,
Dianne 

[/ QUOTE ]

Allow me to try to translate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/03_wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/33_rofl.gif

To me they look like a lot of the German Show line coats which they call "plush" (even though many of them look long to me). Of course the long coats can't be shown in Germany so perhaps they trim the extra fuzz and let them slide by, I don't know. I guess I am used to seeing longer coats than the ones that you posted considered plush and not long coats. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


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## KariKeller

Diane
What absolutely beautiful dogs!! I would love to see more pictures of them.


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## Qyn

Lovely dogs one and all but IME I have never heard the terms "fluff" or "fluffies", it has always been long coat or coated dogs. I find it embarrassing to think that those terms are anything other than a locally affectionate term (which is quite acceptable). Too many times Australians are seen as laidback and casual which is often incorrectly interpretated as being unprofessional and using inaccurate/colloquial terms is IMO part of that.


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## Wiesenland

Sorry if you are embarrassed Qyn.

I've ben in the breed over 25 years as a registered breeder, and the term "fluffies" is yes affectionate and all my piers have always used it. Gee are you migrating from another board?

Perhaps we are laid back. Thank goodness


----------



## Wiesenland

Actually, 32 years.


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## Qyn

[ QUOTE ]
Gee are you migrating from another board?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what you mean by this, I was reading this board b4 I got my pup and joined when she was about 4mo in Jan 2005 and I am on some other dog/grooming boards but none that I am aware that you are on. I have read your other posts along with others with no complaints and neither was my previous post a complaint. Well .... it was not meant to be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif more as a clarification.

I have no problem with you, your professionalism {your website and dogs are great}, or Australians being viewed as laidback or casual (yes, that is a good thing), nor have I any intention of being a breeder. I do have an issue with Australians being seen as non-professional and things appearing to be said on my or others behalf when it is not my viewpoint or experience - not that it's a pissing contest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/24_hello.gif

So, when you appeared to be speaking on behalf of all Austalians and it read as if you were saying we [Australians] used the terms "fluffs or fluffies" *instead of or in preference to* the terms "longcoats or coated" and because none of the breeders I know or my peers in the grooming side use those terms, it gave me an incorrect impression. When you mean it in another affectionate context that gives a totally different impression. Hope that's sorted. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/26_cheers.gif


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## Scarlett

Coated corgis are referred to as "fluffies".


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## GunnersMoms

I have to jump in here because my bitch is from two german imports. Her mother is a "plush" coat.. and so is my bitch. She has a double coat, is a beautiful dog. I think a lot of times, people think they have a longcoat, and they don't. While I agree that there is a breed standard for a reason, I certainly don't think breeding a dog with a great temperment, solid nerves, and good working drive should go down the tubes because of coat length. I think what is really wrecking the gene pool is breeding ill tempered, shy, aggressive, non-working, hip/elbow dysplasic dogs. Breeding needs to be done responsibly. If you have a coated dog that otherwise meets criteria, then just breed the coats back out of it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/congratualtionsSmiley.gif


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## Caitlin

Long coats have long hair around the ears and between the toes. Plush coats don't. At least that's how I understand it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif


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## kilaka

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to throw in my 02. I absolutley LOVE long coated or plush coated, (whatever you'd like to call them)GSD. I just can't understand why it is a fault. GSD should be bread for temperment and workability not long coat or short coat.


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## Xeph

It's a fault because long coats collect debris more readily than a short coat, and it's very hard to groom out.

Shepherds don't want to spend time pulling sticks, twigs, and burrs from their dogs fur.


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## Prinzsalpha

I have a coat and I dont have any of those problems. The only thing I see is when it rains he really gets wet but then so do all the other dogs so.........?


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## Caitlin

Same here, Mali goes swimming, goes in the woods, etc. Doesn't ever get a lot of stuff stuck, and when she does all I have to do is barely brush it with my hand and it will fall off.


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## mfarabia

My understanding is that the coated dogs sometimes don't have the thick double coat which would give a herding dog protection in bad weather. Their silky haircoat is certainly pleasurable to touch and it is not surprising that folks will often pay enormous prices for longcoats, but the breed standard calls for the standard coat length because of the GSD's herding origins. The breed isn't very old and was made up of many coat lengths/textures originally, so it isn't surprising that we sometimes see coated pups from breedings of standard coated parents.We've had a few over the years and they always seem to be the pups everyone wants to take home!


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## bmass01

[ QUOTE ]
It's a fault because long coats collect debris more readily than a short coat, and it's very hard to groom out.

Shepherds don't want to spend time pulling sticks, twigs, and burrs from their dogs fur. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I have to agree with this. Although it is not really hard to get out, the little burrs are certainly a PIA, Dallas has long belly hair and a thick fuzzy butt, all he has to do is walk close to a burr bush to get them. As far as other debris, a "shake it" command works wonders! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


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## luvsheps

Some long coats in face have a good undercoat, some do not. The gene to get long coats in litters of short coated parents each one must carry the gene. I have a pair that does and produces gorgeous deep pigment coats. I am not breeding them again however as most want stock coats. You can test for all kinds of genetics and a gene slips through, even in Germany good as they are, it happens. Dogs are hip-elbow rated at one year, tatooed in right ear. They do no further testing, do not have Rabi vac nor heart worms. Breeding is so risky, u can do the best and still get some problems. That is why good breeders give a warranty.


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## Dakota

I only can tell you how it worked with the longcoated ( or long stock coated as we say in Germany) in my breeding club, the LSVD.
This question is placed again and again of interested parties and members. When the association 1984 was established, one had include in regarded that the VDH as a yet far removed goal. The total attention was dedicated to the construction of the association. First as 1989 a new board selected was, got this subject again meaning. The statute and breeding order was adapted the guidelines of the VDH. The members meeting concluded include in placed become should 1990, that the proposition around the VDH. At the 02.01.1991, the LSVD placed the proposition on reception. Unfortunately the association had to learn that at the 23.03.1991 the standard of the German shepherd dog was changed in the F. C. I. Until at this time, the langstockhaarige (longhairs)shepherd dog in the standard was classified as undesirable. But after the proposition position, this shepherd dog was classified as an excluding mistake. End this reason includes in find the LSVD unfortunately no the VDH. But all members found this variant of the German shepherd dog for laud, also without the blessing of the large umbrella organization further to breedings. The success in the course of the past years gives the LSVD quite. The > "> langstockhaarige> "> (longhairs) shepherd dog is pleased increasing popularity. From that one can recognize that the serious and careful work of the association recognition found. Also without membership in the VDH, that is forbids become us through a disputed gambit, the LSVD can pride on its breeding successes.

At the moment, the german shepherd club ( SV) think about to allow breeding with the longstock coat.


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## Ardatha

The only drawback I ever saw in my long haired shepherd (I had him many years ago when there weren't that many of them around and his coat had the undercoat, too) was that when he tried to swim, his coat would soak up so much water he'd sink like a rock. I had to rescue him a few times before we gave up throwing his ball in the deeper water! LOL He was the most beautiful shepherd I'd ever seen, at the time, though. Long hairs are probably still pretty much my favorite, even thought it's considered a fault.


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## Dakota

Our dogs love swimming and i never had any problems with sinking







A dog from my c-litters is a water-rescue dog.










He is an avalanche search dog , too


















He never has problems with his coat


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## Cassidy's Mom

Beautiful dog! My two longcoats are terrific swimmers too, I wish *I* could swim as well as they do, lol!


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## Liesje

Do coats matter much for swimming? What about newfs, chessies, and other breeds designed for swimming that have long/thick coats?


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## Ardatha

You know, I never really thought anything about it until the first time I saw it happen. He was in the water going after a ball when his eyes looked into mine while he was sinking. I waded in and pulled him out. He didn't know he couldn't swim and tried several times afterwards with the same result. I know I've seen other long haired dogs not have any problem. All I can think of is that his coat just soaked up too much water?


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## arycrest

Echo LOVED diving and swimming - he was like a fish in the water and never got tired. His long coat never interfered with the swimming.


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## KariKeller

My two LH's LOVE the water. They will swim until the cows come home if I let them!


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## Chris Wild

I can't imagine how length of coat would affect swimming. Might take them longer to dry, but that's about it.

The only weatherproof issue encountered with long coats is that there are two different types of long coats: Long coat, which has a long outer coat and NO undercoat, and Long stock coat, which has a long outer coat and the same undercoat seen in regular coated dogs. That undercoat is important for insulation, both helping the dog stay cool when it's hot and helping the dog stay warm when it's cold.

The lack of undercoat as is seen on some long coats could impact a dog's ability to comfortably and safely swim, especially in cold water, due to the lack of insulation. Not the length of the hair.


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## Dakota

That`s right, but in my 10 years at the longcoat scene, i`ve never seen a longcoat without undercoat. Dogs without undercoat would be not allowed breeding even in longcoated clubs. Practically all longcoated i know are longstock coated, they only named longcoat or longhair because most people in germany don´t know the name "longstock coated" Here this dogs are often named "altdeutscher schaeferhund", "old german shepherd"


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## DDRshep

http://www.lsvd-net.de/html/deckrueden.htm

Long stock coat studs in Europe, all SchH 3..some famous stock coats like Xato von der bösen Nachbarschaft, Quax v. Waldwinkel, Kevin vom Murrtal , Ury vom Fuchsgraben, Wotan v. Bärenfang, Camp vom Mühlteich, Aly vom Vordersteinwald are behind these dogs

anyone know any long stock coat SchH3 studs in the U.S.?


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## Brightelf

In Europe it is very different, the longstock coated dogs are bred for their brains, working ability, health, titles... they are working on farms, for customs, earning working titles, and being home companions too. 

In USA, it is more common to find longcoats without undercoat, or with LESS undercoat, bred just because someone wants their pet to have cute babies. 

There are some fantastic longstockcoats in USA, too... only saying, in Europe, the focus is very strong on a functional, practical, sound-minded dog you can work. These longstockcoats just happen to also be beautiful, too!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DDRshep
> anyone know any long stock coat SchH3 studs in the U.S.?


Nick vom Altbacher Wald is a long stock coat. He trains with a nearby club and has done fairly well in competition too (just took 2nd at the ME regionals). I don't know if Jim offers him for stud though.


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## Dakota

> Quote: Nick vom Altbacher Wald is a long stock coat


And he has a nice pedigree, very interesting line


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## wolfstraum

Nick is gorgeous, great worker...

there is a Tom L. Schh3 son in NE PA that a guy breeds

Lee


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## K_RIZ114

I currently own a long haired German shepherd stud named Kody. His hair does not get in the way of tracking and when he is wet he is dry in a matter of minutes. He is of German blood and has a clean bill of health. I do not agree in the comparison of long haired G.S's with breeders of laberdoodles...Kody was not cross bred he comes from complete European background. He is my father's bestfriend and exibits amazing shepherd qualities. I am not one of those people asking for them to be recognized as a different breed, however I just want to put that our there. Anyone from Oregon here?


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## spartshep

This is a coated male out of Puck x Ulla. While I am not a fan of coated GSD's, I think this one is absolutely gorgeous...his owner is Suzy Shamus...this dog certified in SAR at just over 1 year of age~~Enjoy


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## cgarrity

Newfs and Chessies have very oils coats that repel water when they swim so they are not weighed down. Labs (although not long-coated dogs) also have an oily water resistant coat that repels water.


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## K9mom

I saw a gorgeous Black Sable LH Guide Dog yesterday assisting a man cross a very busy street yesterday. I have seen many of them as Fidelco does end up with many LH's in their line (as other programs do). It doesn't stop them from working in the real world here in New England. The only problem I could imagine would be if a LH stays outside in icy snow too long and the owner doesn't trim the bottom of his feet, he could get snow balls between his toes (which does also happen to one of my stock coated dogs). Otherwise, a wet dog is a wet dog. Then again, I guess I never really owned a true Long Coat becuase ALL mine have & had very thick undercoats.

Tina


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## Cooper&me

Pls do not breed Ava just for the sake of it. Don't we have enough pups looking for homes?


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## KCandMace

The original post was in 2004. She also hasn't been here since the day she signed on.

This was a very good thread over all.

My KC is a Altdeutscher Schaeferhund x Deutsche Schaeferhund.
The boys are pure Altdeutscher Schaeferhund.
And because they were bred for their working ability and not GSD Standard we can not register them. Because someone said that their long coats are not acceptable to a show ring shouldn't impact them for breeding into a working line. I searched for the long coated Altdeutscher as that was what I wanted. I found a breeder with excellent parents. And now I have two adorable boys. We all know what we are looking for in our pups. I don't understand why the show ring should dictate so much of a breed standard. As that is what I feel the AKC is more of.


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## denwil2007

The show ring doesn't dictate the standard. The longcoat dog is not showable because the standard says long coats are a fault. And since the standard says it, the show ring follows suit, just like floppy ears, dock tails, undershot, overshot bite, and temperment issues are faults.


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## K9mom

These are the only Disqualifying faults, anything else is considered a minor fault and can be shown (probably wouldn't win but could be shown).

Taken directly from the AKC webpage:
"Disqualifications:
Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs. 
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge. "

I HAVE shown my Long coated GSD and won BOB in a young dog class over one other female who was a normal coat. A minor/major fault and a disqualifying fault are completely different and I wish people would learn that. I even have Long Coats who have letters signed off by judges for the GSDCA ATAA program certifying they have no disqualifying faults so I KNOW for a fact a Long coat is not disqualifying besides what is printed in the standard. It is simply not perfect.

Tina


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## umzilla

The SV delegates just had a meeting and voted that LONG STOCK COATS (ie. long coats with an undercoat) are now acceptable in the standard. The FCI standard will be revised.

Might deserve it's own thread..........

Christine


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## denwil2007

yes, not a disqualifying fault, but a fault none the less, so most aren't going to waste time and money showing something that is considered unshowable, or breeding a coated dog either. It's like anything else that show folks consider pet quality, and pet quality dogs aren't bred.


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## Xeph

I know plenty of breeders that use longcoat bitches as broods...


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## crackem

like I really care what a show breeder does, I wish they'd just finish off the split already, and have Show Shepherds and German Shepherds


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## SkyeGSD

I highly doubt that there will be a "split" anytime soon...


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: umzillaThe SV delegates just had a meeting and voted that LONG STOCK COATS (ie. long coats with an undercoat) are now acceptable in the standard. The FCI standard will be revised.
> 
> Might deserve it's own thread..........
> 
> Christine


So does that mean in a Sieger show they will not be faulted? I wonder if the AKC will follow.


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## EastGSD

> Originally Posted By: chasethedogyes, not a disqualifying fault, but a fault none the less, so most aren't going to waste time and money showing something that is considered unshowable, or breeding a coated dog either. It's like anything else that show folks consider pet quality, and pet quality dogs aren't bred.


I disagree with the above and I do not know where you got that impression?

Many show people have shown coats and gotten class wins with them. And a large number use them in their breeding programs.

Cherri


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## umzilla

According to reports, they will be shown as another variety. They will not be in the ring with the stock coats, but will be eligible for any show rating that a stock coat can get - but will compete with other Long Stock Coats. This will also allow them to enter for breed surveys, assuming they also meet the other requirements. Effective 2009.

NOTE: this is taken from reports and explanations about what was voted on at the SV delegates meeting. 

Christine


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## DHau

This was a long time in coming. Yay! I bet there are going to be some beauties competing. I have not seen an ugly long coat yet.


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## denwil2007

> Originally Posted By: EastGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: chasethedogyes, not a disqualifying fault, but a fault none the less, so most aren't going to waste time and money showing something that is considered unshowable, or breeding a coated dog either. It's like anything else that show folks consider pet quality, and pet quality dogs aren't bred.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the above and I do not know where you got that impression?
> 
> Many show people have shown coats and gotten class wins with them. And a large number use them in their breeding programs.
> 
> Cherri
Click to expand...

actually. I got that impression from the showgsd list I am a member of, and the many breed clubs that I am affliated with.


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## EastGSD

Really? That is very odd since many Ambred show breeders are very fond of their coated brood bitches.

Cherri


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## Xeph

^ What she said.

Like I said a page ago...I know plenty of people that'll use a long coat as a brood bitch


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## Ocean

This SV decision will open up the genetic pool to more dogs with good genetics that have been unused due to their being LHs. I can remember an interesting discussion in peddbase about breeding a WUSV champion that is an LH. Most people were against it and these were supposedly working line folks that valued working ability above all else. We can't close off dogs like that from the gene pool simply because of hair size.


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## denwil2007

we just had this discussion about long coated dogs on showgsd-l. perhaps I should forward the discussion to you? sure there are folks who have them, and they may even use them for breeding only if the structure of the female is good enough to mitigate the coat. breed her to a non coated dog to get a stock coat pup with the dam's structure. However, a true long coat will not finish without some creative scissoring by the handler, so conventional wisdom is to spay and place in a pet home. look through the websites/pedigrees of many gsd breeders, and you aren't going to see many long coat dogs.

there is a reason why coated dogs are faulted in the standard, major or minor fault. everyone is always talking about breeding to the standard. changing the standard with make it seem like it's flexible, and seems like a step backwards to all those folks that use it as a guillotine above show breeders necks.


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## DHau

I went to an AKC dog show in May and was a little surprised by what I saw. Dachunds are usually short haired dogs to my knowledge. I saw long haired ones being shown in the ring. So if there are long and short coated Dachunds, why can't there be stock and long coated German Shepherds each competing in a class of their own? It doesn't seem fair to the long coats because other breeds have different hair lengths and it's sanctioned.


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## Brightelf

DHau, supposedly longcoats are less workable in foul weather.














Longstock coats DO have an undercoat. I live in Germany, and we have less rain than Oregon and Washington. Some parts rarely get heavy snows, but not often. A longstock coat with undercoat is in the same job as the Border Collie, Rough Scotch Collie, Old English sheepdog, (bred to the extreme nowadays), Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren, Bearded collie, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, and flock guardians with long heavy coats such as Pyrenese, Caucasian Ovcharkra, etc etc etc. All manage fine in rain, snow, etc-- moving and guarding flocks here in Europe.

Oh, and here we see many _wirecoated_ Dachshunds.


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## WiscTiger

I love my Long Stock coats, we won't even go into the variations of the Doxie...... Wire Haried, Dapple, Pie-Bald and so on to the point it is difficult to find a GOOD black & tan, smooth coat.


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## VKristallaugen4

> Originally Posted By: chasethedogyes, not a disqualifying fault, but a fault none the less, so most aren't going to waste time and money showing something that is considered unshowable, or breeding a coated dog either. It's like anything else that show folks consider pet quality, and pet quality dogs aren't bred.


I know plenty of great show breeders who use longcoats as brood bitches. I would make sure I was more well informed before sticking my foot in my mouth.


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## VKristallaugen4

> Originally Posted By: chasethedog
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: EastGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: chasethedogyes, not a disqualifying fault, but a fault none the less, so most aren't going to waste time and money showing something that is considered unshowable, or breeding a coated dog either. It's like anything else that show folks consider pet quality, and pet quality dogs aren't bred.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the above and I do not know where you got that impression?
> 
> Many show people have shown coats and gotten class wins with them. And a large number use them in their breeding programs.
> 
> Cherri
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> actually. I got that impression from the showgsd list I am a member of, and the many breed clubs that I am affliated with.
Click to expand...

I seriously think you misunderstood them, because alot of you most succesfull American Showline breeders incorporate coats into their breeding program. As I have been told...it helps to keep the "plushiness" and I believe it is true.


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## EastGSD

Dachshunds come in three coat varieties: smooth, wire and long

and then of course have like over 120 different color variations

and...two sizes...








I want a Dachie









Cherri


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## Brightelf

Cherri, the Dackels here are very, very different than I was accustomed to in USA. VERY strong-minded, heftier, yet not as extreme. None of the newfangled cutesy color variations here though-- and they tend to be quite healthy.

I wonder if my next GSD someday may be a longcoat. I am interested to see how things will change now with the new acceptance ruling on longcoats. They truly are beautiful!


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## EastGSD

Ohhh yes I love the German Teckles







I found a kennel over there with wonderful dogs...but







I could never afford it with the Euro now and shipping







I have a beautiful photo on my puter here that is a wonderful black and tan boy that I just am in awe of...... I wish









Cherri


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## DHau

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfDHau, supposedly longcoats are less workable in foul weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Longstock coats DO have an undercoat. I live in Germany, and we have less rain than Oregon and Washington. Some parts rarely get heavy snows, but not often. A longstock coat with undercoat is in the same job as the Border Collie, Rough Scotch Collie, Old English sheepdog, (bred to the extreme nowadays), Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren, Bearded collie, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, and flock guardians with long heavy coats such as Pyrenese, Caucasian Ovcharkra, etc etc etc. All manage fine in rain, snow, etc-- moving and guarding flocks here in Europe.
> 
> Oh, and here we see many _wirecoated_ Dachshunds.


This has been covered before in previous threads. It just doesn't seem fair to discriminate over hair, either length or by color considering other breeds are accepted. I'm beating a dead horse I know. lol. BUT then, how many GS actually work on farms herding nowadays in the states?


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## longhairshepmom

I absolutely love and adore longstock haired German Shepherds. The only kind I want.

I find them by FAR way easier to groom and take care off, there is much less shedding too, and I've yet to find a mat in the coat.

For me the challenge is to find a quality bred one.

I do not want to go to a breeder that purposely breeds for longhaired ones. I believe if you breed for a certain color or characteristic ONLY , you loose quality overall. 

What I want is a quality breeder, quality dogs with awesome temperament (very important) and health that just "happen" to have a longcoat in the litter. Which just happens to be the temperament and sex I'm looking for.

Its a challenge. 

But I wouldnt' want it any other way.


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## shepherdbydesign

Patti you are right about that they are beautiful, we had one here that was every bit beautiful but we placed her in a forever home last year, And yes they do shed less due to some having no undercoats.


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## WiscTiger

OK, as a person who has 3 sotck long coats and 1 stock coat, my stock coat Raya sheds a little all the time. It seems with my coats that there is minimal shedding EXCEPT when they blow their coat, then look out.

You can find good Stock long coats from breeders who aren't breeding just for LC's.


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## charlie319

I guess things change this year:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/documents/2009GBMMinutes.pdf

The SV in 2010 will allow long stock coat with undercoat dogs under a separate registry. They may be shown at breed shows with a separate ring and judge.


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## charlie319

IMPO, you breed first and foremost for temperament (drive, hardness are included here), then (a very close second) for conformation. Coat is a recessive gene and while you may try to avoid it, it may show up anyways. The one problem I see with the breeders is that they seem to fixate on a few traits and assume that the rest of the genetics package will carry forth.


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## Mariam

gsdsar said:


> I too have a LC GSD and I love her to death, best dog ever. But I spayed her, for the sole reaosn that she was a long coat. It is not only undesirable for a GSD but a huge fault and should not be bred.
> 
> When deciding wether or not to breed you have to look at everything the dog has to offer. Temperment, drive, conformation, everything, if the pup lacks in any in a major way then they should not be bred. Breeding should be done for the betterment (is that even a word) of the breed, and to breed a dog clearly out of standard is not really ethical.
> 
> I.E. My male pup Ike was never intended for a breeding dog, but he grew up beautifully is very masculine, has a great temperment and outstanding drive and soundness. So I put off neutering him unitl he was 2 to see how he turned out. Well he is too tall, by about 1 1/2 in and has a minor oddity in his bite. Not something most people would notice but I did. So he got fixed.
> 
> There are so many dogs out there with the same qualities without the faults that it made no sense to add his genes to the gene pool. IMHO a dog should only be bred if they are OUTSTANDING and show all the traits a GSD should.
> 
> A dog with an obvious and huge fault should not be bred. I know you love your pup and she is probably a wonderful dog. But being a wonderful dog does not make her breed worthy. As a breeder it will be your responsibilty to ensure that only the best dogs be bred and by that retain the integrity of the breed.
> 
> Some day i hope to breed, some day I will find just the right dog, I dont have it right now.
> 
> As for your original question, both parents have to carry the LC gene for the any of the pups to be LC. So technically if you breed to male that does not carry the gene then none of the pups will be LC but they will still carry the possibilty of producing it if they are bred.
> 
> And as I am sure many will tell you, breeding is a HUGE responsibilty, you bring those pups into the world, you are responsible for their lives, are you prepared to make sure they have a good life, no matter what? Can you ensure that they will never be mistreated or sent to a pound? Even if that means that taking them back if their owners cant keep them? can you ensure the saftey of your female? Afford the time and money it takes to raise a litter? Will you female be titled in anything? Will you be able to make sure she has no other defects such as Hip Dysplasia or eye issues? can you handle the financial aspect if anything goes worng and she needs emergency care while giving birth? there are lots of things to consider.
> 
> If you do decide to breed her then I wish you good luck and i hope that you do eberything possible to ensure that she and the pups have a healthy and happy life.
> 
> Good luck-


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## Mariam

It is not an undesirable trait . Long hair german Shepherd are winning show all over the world . I just paid 5000 dollars importing one from Germany and I have a mail from Czech that is working line that is long hair . Both have had all health tests and are **** near perfect . Who told you it’s undesirable?


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## Mariam

charlie319 said:


> I guess things change this year:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherddog.com/documents/2009GBMMinutes.pdf
> 
> The SV in 2010 will allow long stock coat with undercoat dogs under a separate registry. They may be shown at breed shows with a separate ring and judge.


More and more people are wanting the long coat gsd .


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