# Zoe just went after my nephew...unprovoked:(



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Zoe has never liked strangers especially inside the house, but always has calmed down after awhile and been polite. My nephew is in town for Christmas and is spending the day with us. He has no pets of any kind and is terrified of dogs. I put Zoe in her crate when they came and she has spent the day in there to help him be more comfortable around dogs....plus she has been known to bark and lunge when any rough housing occurs.

I took both dogs for a walk with the kids and Zoe was fine- she completely ignored my nephew Luke and ran and played as usual with my lab. We came in and the boys went upstairs to play while Zoe and me lounged on the couch. I know Zoe is extra protective of the upstairs and it did occur to me maybe I should put her away before they came down in case she reacted, but I stupidly didn't- my mistake. While she is good with people downstairs usually for some reason she does not want anyone who does not live here upstairs.

So the boys came halfway down the stairs and she began to grumble. I told her no and my son came over petting her. She licked him tail wagging and happy. Luke stood paralyzed on the stairs afraid of Zoe and again I knew I should just put her back in the crate, but I didn't. Before I knew it she ran over to him still on the stairs barking and lunging though not biting at all. He of course flailed, screamed, flapped his arms, and cried. She scared the pee put of him literally I called her off and gave the crate command and she obediently went to the crate, but I can't just keep her crated every time we have company for the day- it's mean

Why is she such a psycho when people come over? We've had her since she was 10 weeks and have always had people in and out of the house. Early on we knew she didn't want guests to touch her so we told them to ignore her. A few of our most frequent guests have become her friend, but anyone else walking in needs a bite suit if I'm not right there. Lately, I just keep her in the crate as soon as someone pulls up before they can even get to the door, but I need a better solution here. When she barks and lunges she gets a firm no and the crate command- she listens, but it doesn't deter her from doing it again and again. How do I get her to stop trying to eat my guests?


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

what if your guests gave her treats?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

She will not take a treat from a stranger...we've tried. She loves my brother in-law, mom, and dad because they come here often. She is even okay with DH's parents though they haven't tried to go upstairs. Outside she ignores people as long as they ignore her, but the moment someone tries to come in the house she is on the alert and not friendly at all. My nephew is spending the night so Zoe will remain in the crate till whenever he leaves tomorrow which has me feeling guilty for her, but my nephews safety is more important here. 

I just don't know why she has such an issue with people inside our home- she's been like this from birth literally. My breeder happens to be my neighbor. Both dogs were health and hip tested, and have great dispositions though her father was door aggressive. As long as he is put in a stay BEFORE someone just walks in he is fine and a big old lush the moment they sit down. He licks strangers, is friendly, and wants to plop down in their laps. However, Zoe from the moment she could walk would retreat away from visitors and do her own thing- when picked up by a potential buyer she would nip and growl as young as 6 weeks. This is part of the reason we have her in the first place- she always loved me from the start

I knew we would have some issues so she has been socialized from the start- I take her everywhere with me, but always tell people to not try to touch her and I do steer away from kids since many will try and run up to say hi. She used to bark at people on our walks, but now ignores them as long as they keep their distance- 6ft. seems to be her threshold outdoors. We use the watch command to get past people and it works like a charm every time without her barking at all. We even take her to our friends homes and while she ignores them and follows me everywhere she plays great with their dogs, and never ever has barked or growled off her turf- this behavior seems to only occur in the home or when a stranger outside is too pushy about wanting to say hi. Part of me realizes this is just her personality- she is flawed and can not be trusted, but there has to be a way to circumvent her reactivity inside some way. Any suggestions?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx is the same way with small children. It is her genetics/nerves that make her this way(fear aggressive) 
She is fine with teenagers and adults. 
I just crate her because I can't "use the kids" for desensitization. I think it is because the kids are unpredictable and the dog is fearful, and that age is hardly ever around her. They look at the dogs in they eye and show "bad manners" as far as body language because they don't know better. And the level they are(eye) is another "threat" to dogs with issues.

If you do want Zoe to get over this, then she needs to know the kids won't cause her to be corrected, she'll associate the correction as coming from the kid not what she did as far as her reaction to him. 
Treats are good, if the child will be willing to help with it-just have him toss Zoe a treat without making eye contact or anything else.
Play the LAT game with her w/ kids, keep the tone upbeat and happy so she associates kids with positivity.
Because she did react this way, I would be on guard though(try not to let her feel your tension)


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## KatieStanley (Apr 27, 2010)

How old is Zoe? My Zoe is 11 months old and we have been dealing with her fear aggression/protectiveness for awhile. It's gradually getting better, but still an issue for us. I've started having our friends and family give her ham, turkey, or whatever kind of sandwich meat we have at the time- because like your girl...she won't take just normal treats from anyone...but super special ones she will. Someone may have better advice than me, but one thing I know for sure...it takes time. My Zoe has her good days and bad- on the worst, she goes to her crate if she won't settle down.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

What is the LAT game? Zoe will not and never has taken ANY treats from anyone but me, my kids, and my DH. Anyone else with treats is ignored not even if tossed on the ground- she won't even sniff at it. If I pick it up and offer it to her she still will not eat it either. I have to pick up a new treat and then she will eat that one. We've even tried tricking her but she knows when they don't smell like her family. She is almost 14 months old now and really a great dog though from this post it doesn't show,lol She just is not trustworthy with anyone new in the home adult or child. I have a double gate system in my kitchen that screws into the wall and is too tall to jump over so she is in there now eating safely. The boys are up here with me, but my poor nephew will not even go downstairs right now. I calmed him down and told him she didn't mean to scare him and wouldn't hurt him though I believe she would have hurt him had I not been there. The thing is she is golden with my own kids and her breeders 4 small children. They hug and kiss her, lay with her, and half the time she chooses to sleep in my youngest sons room. She absolutely loves my children, me, and DH but no one else. 

I had called a few behaviorists in my area after she went after my BIL, but 2 out of the 4 places recommended euthanasia and the other 2 didn't feel comfortable evaluating her- does that make sense? What is a behaviorist for?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Isn't MD Pat Miller territory? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Bottom line in this situation given what you know, Zoe was not going to succeed. Don't make that mistake when it matters, and when it doesn't you can work on behaviors, if that makes sense.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I don't want to make anyone angry or defensive, but this is one reason that I am afraid my wonderful GSD was a fluke of nature:wub:, especially since my vet liked him so much, saying that he was the most peaceful sweet natured GSD he had ever seen. He said 99% of the GSD he examines or treats have to be muzzled. When we bought our pup, it was really neat, because the breeder welcomed us into a large chain-link fenced area, where her GSDs were running about wagging tails with tongues hanging out with big doggy smiles. It was obvious that these were fantastic, balanced animals. No dogs rushed at us or made us nervous in any way, as they had at a couple other breeders' kennels we had visited! I am wondering from all you GSD experts on the forum if it makes a difference if your dog is from American or German lines? And can a breeder accurately assess a pup's temperament or prey drive by age 10-14 weeks when they are placed? In the area of PA where I used to live, I do have to say, on the behalf of GOOD GSD breeders out there, that many of the GSDs my vet saw were probably BYB & not from a well-researched breeder! These aggression & unpredictability issues are the main reason I will also explore the Shiloh Shepherd further with all the great info on this site. I know that they are giant sized & that this would impair their working ability/agility, but we will first & foremost be looking for a PET & possible pet therapy dog that will be sweet but protective. If I were looking for a working dog that would be a different situation. I am very eager to learn:help:, so I hope some honest discussions will be welcomed & not anger anyone. Thanks!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Temperament has a lot to do with genetics yes but I think defining temperament by just American or German lines is a little broad. The Shiloh Shepherd is not a purebred german shepherd to begin with so they aren't exactly a good measure of temperament for the breed. Zoe's mom is from East German working lines and dad from West German working lines both grandparents on each side titled though her parents were not. I really just need a contact for a good behaviorist or trainer people here know- I've talked to a lot of whack jobs that call themselves behaviorists or trainers but haven't let them near my dog after talking to them at length about her issues. I get euthanasia, electronic collar, or just keep her crated as my answers and none of these are feasible long term nor do anything to solve the problem.

I want to know first why she does this in the home and how to manage it without forever having her locked up. My kids often have sleep over because they can not sleep out yet so right now on those nights she is gated in the kitchen separated from us which makes her soooooo sad


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Zoey's Mom, I think you need to make a mental adjustment about crating Zoe. When you put her in the crate, you're not only protecting guests in your home, you're protecting her from herself. There's no reason you should feel bad about that in any way. 

If Zoe were to hurt a guest in your home, obviously that would be a horrible and traumtic experience for all the people involved but the aftermath could be disastrous for Zoe. She needs you to make sure she doesn't end up in that situation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

ITA with Paula. 

Peaceable Paws

maxtmill - maybe start a new topic!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Pat Miller's training facility, Peaceable Paws, is just over an hour from you in Fairplay, MD. Peaceable Paws

I would give them a call tomorrow. 

I agree that keeping her in her crate is not only fair but until you are able to counter-condition her, it is the only way to set her up for success. For now she should get something super yummy and special in her crate every time someone comes to your house.

And to the person whose vet said that 99% of gsds have to be muzzled: there must be some very poor owners in your area or your vet is prejudiced against gsds. I have never had to muzzle a foster or any of of my own gsds at the vet and don't know anyone who has had to either.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I also say crate for now. You knew you should have as she was giving you the signals. So now you know  


as for the muzzling? i've had 5, none ever needed to be muzzled to go the vet or anywhere else, and all of them would bite when told to  There are lots of good dogs out there, just gotta find them


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with all suggestions given, and wanted to add, she very well could have picked up on your nephew's fear and maybe others?? Not to say that is her 'reason', but it could add to it.

I highly recommend Pat Miller if you can get into that

And Ruth,,my vet has said the SAME thing,,Masi is my 6th gsd, all previous gsds and the aussies, never ever had to be muzzled at the vets, my vet used to tell me all the time, my dogs were the easiest to work with but the majority of gsd's they get in have to be muzzled And yes, I do muzzle masi at the vets, she unfortunately, is absolutely petrified of my vet, has never tried to bite her, but to keep all safe, I do muzzle her..It actually seems to 'calm' her if that makes sense, like the decision to 'do' anything is taken out of her hands.. sorry to go a little OT..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even though it is not ok, your nephew's behavior and fear is probably something your dog keyed on. 

Dogs do not think the way we do. They are not thinking, he is on the steps let's get him. I think they are thinking, I smell fear, what is there to be afraid of? Why should I be afraid? Why is that person smelling so bad of that fear smell. Something is wrong with that person. 

I think criminals exhude a similar smell when they are doing something that they are fearful of getting caught, etc. If that was a yayhoo carrying a tv out from the upstairs to steal it and your dog did exactly what it did, you would have this in the braggs section. 

I think you have to especially evaluate your company, and yes protect them, your dog, and yourself by providing her with a place she is safe. If she is an only dog, than a kennel in the yard would just mean she would bark and be lonely and make you feel worse. 

How about a kennel in a garage if you have one. Maybe an inny outty with a dog door to the outside. If the garage is nice and heated. Move the cars outside, put a few chairs in there and a big screen tv, then people can hang out with the dog safely kenneled in the same area. 

I am thinking a 10 x 6 foot kennel pannels using the garage wall as part of the kennel, so a 20' x 6' area, where you can have a nice dog bed, toys, water bucket, cot, doggy door to the outside kennel, etc. 

Boy would I know what to do with a two car, heated garage. 

Sigh....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zoeys mom said:


> Zoe will not and never has taken ANY treats from anyone but me, my kids, and my DH.


That's okay - rather than having the treats come FROM the other person, they can just happen when other people are around. That's counter-conditioning, as Ruth mentioned. 

If you have ANY concern with her around a particular person (and now you know she has a problem with Luke, quite possibly because she reads his fear of her loud and clear), I agree with crating her. With people that you think she might be okay around, especially at a slight distance vs up close and personal (have them completely ignore her, just be maybe somewhere in the same room, or at least within sight), then you or anyone else she trusts feed her treats, super high value ones. Small doses of this, short sessions with her on leash so you can control her, over and over again with a variety of different people. Keep your demeanor light and happy - "Yay, how wonderful it is that so and so came over", and end the session _before_ she starts to stress. 

Eventually she'll start to associate people over with good things happening for her, and should start to relax around them and actually look forward to them being around. It can take time though, and you don't want to rush it. And with kids, or anyone who is afraid of or does not like dogs, I'd skip it and crate her until they're gone.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I'll have to call peaceable paws thats one I've never heard of- do they make house calls,lol? I don't feel bad when she's in there for a few hours when we have guests, but she's been in there minus 2 walks since 11 am, and will in there minus another two walks till around 11 am tomorrow. Technically she's gated in the kitchen now, but she is a snuggly dog and hates being away from the family

She's in heat, we just got our first cat, and my nephew definitely gives off the you scare me vibes- he won't even go downstairs without coaxing even though she's locked up


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I wish we had a garage but we live in a townhouse. Our kitchen and dining room are connected so she has a 20x20 place to hang locked up....I know it's not that bad, but all the same she looks pathetic in there. The thing is we have been giving her treats when we have company from day one, and yet anyone going upstairs is a threat to her. She seems fine with dog people downstairs, but yes anyone afraid of her gets snarling, lunging, and barking. Hubby just got home and is hanging with her now and the boys are in the next room being boys- she is quiet and sleeping in her crate with the door open though both gates locked- I wish the boys would quiet down


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> ITA with Paula.
> 
> Peaceable Paws
> 
> maxtmill - maybe start a new topic!


Hi! I am wondering if there is a way to move my comment/question into another topic area, or is this not possible? I am not the best on the computer! Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just wondering here...was your nephew frozen in place and staring at her? What might seem unprovoked to you, might actually be a trigger. If someone stares at Jax for to long she'll lunge at them.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

First he was frozen then jumping up and down like a weirdo screaming and flapping his arms like a bird,lol I don't think staring is a good enough reason to lunge and bark.....I expect more from her though I know it can be seen as aggressive behavior on his part. My kids stare at her, lay on her, run around, wrestle, screech, and god knows what else and she just loves being in the middle of them and their antics- she's like my third kid. She is so gentle and sweet with them yet downright vicious with visitors.

I don't expect her to like every guest that comes in the house or be social with them- I just need her not to attack people while they are in my house or test them by barking. She's never actually bit anyone but it's gotten close now three times. She used to tolerate my kids friends and young family and now even they aren't safe around her


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I had a (forever) foster who was like Zoe. He was surrendered after biting the delivery guy in the butt (just minor). I used to introduce him to new people in front of the house. They would take him for a walk without meandthen they would walk into the house together. You should try upping your leadership. YOU are in in charge of defending the house, not Zoe. NILIF


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I volunteer playing decoy when I am in the area. 
Karen Decker is one of the rare trainers who accepts iffy rescue dogs in her classes. I think formal obedience would help too.
I have another great trainer who saved many from the needle - he does use the e collar though.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Zoe is a dog, not a child. Who is in charge? The person (you), or the dog?
What is the dog's opinion on this?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't say it was acceptable. Just that it could be the trigger. If you find the trigger, you can work on controlling and correcting the behavior.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

So RebelGSD you planning on being in the area any time soon? I like the idea of having the stranger walk her into the home- it certainly would put a new spin on things. We practice NILIF here- she sits and stays for food, does not get on furniture without permission, walks behind me, and has to perform a command for almost anything. I don't even pet her unless she does something first. I can open my front door with her right there and walk away knowing she will stay, but I can't say I trust her with strangers.....that is becoming a major issue.

And PaddyD yes I know she is the dog I am the owner. Her only disobedience is with new people in the home and her current opinion is that they should not be there. I'm willing to try anything at this point to get her reactivity in home under control- any suggestions are totally welcomed


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Possible. I was there on the 24th. You may have some VGSR volunteers in the area too.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> So RebelGSD you planning on being in the area any time soon? I like the idea of having the stranger walk her into the home- it certainly would put a new spin on things. We practice NILIF here- she sits and stays for food, does not get on furniture without permission, walks behind me, and has to perform a command for almost anything. I don't even pet her unless she does something first. I can open my front door with her right there and walk away knowing she will stay, but I can't say I trust her with strangers.....that is becoming a major issue.
> 
> And PaddyD yes I know she is the dog I am the owner. Her only disobedience is with new people in the home and her current opinion is that they should not be there. I'm willing to try anything at this point to get her reactivity in home under control- any suggestions are totally welcomed


Sorry to appear harsh, but I get the impression of a dog who thinks she is in charge. I could be totally wrong. As for petting her only when she does something, that's another thing I don't go for. My dog gets petted for breathing, lying, sitting, farting, eating, sleeping. But she still knows who's in charge. It's unfair of me to judge your dog from just a little information. I think a lot of people need to lighten up about their dogs and maybe the dog will follow suit.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zoeys mom said:


> First he was frozen then jumping up and down like a weirdo screaming and flapping his arms like a bird,lol I don't think staring is a good enough reason to lunge and bark.....I expect more from her though I know it can be seen as aggressive behavior on his part.


Well, there you go! Staring is definitely a trigger. I stare at my dogs all the time, and in fact I teach focus from a young age, so they've been heavily rewarded for making extended eye contact with me. BUT, that's not the same thing as someone else coming up and staring at them. With Keefer it's not an issue, but Halo doesn't care to be stared at either. If someone just walks right up to meet her she's usually fine, but if they stand a few feet away and stare at her, she will often start to bark at them. 

She's also more sensitive to people acting "weird" than I'm used to in my GSDs. And although Keefer does not have a problem with what Halo might deem weird human behavior, his prey drive is easily triggered. So if someone shrieked and jumped up and down flapping his arms it could very well flip that prey drive switch in his fuzzy little brain. He wouldn't bark or lunge, but he tends to jump around and get nippy when he's excited, which can be a problem. Zero intent to harm, but still - not good. 

I think if you're ever going to get her to be okay with him you'll need to teach him how to behave properly around dogs. And if that's just not possible, then keep her crated, for the safety of both of them.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm open to your opinions and don't think your being harsh at all. Apparently Zoe does think she is in charge when it comes to people coming in the home and I don't know how I created this. She is just so obedient otherwise. She doesn't need a lead when we're outdoors, we go hiking, fishing, to friends homes, the store, and she is a perfect angel. Then someone walks in the house and she goes absolutely berserk. It doesn't happen outside only inside. I put her in a sit stay when people come in, give her treats for staying, verbal praise, and the minute I release her from the stay she barks and barks and barks. If they (the person being barked at) screams in fear or runs she lunges while barking- never yet biting, but darn close. So it comes down to I screwed up somewhere, but where is my question?

I've owned dobes all my life since I was in diapers, had 2 pits, and of course my goofy lab. While my last dobe was definitely touchy he never reacted as easily as she does and a simple eh eh was enough to make him go lay down. Zoe will repeatedly bark at guests if they move, get up to use the bathroom, we go to another room, and going up the stairs with a guest is something I don't even try. I've thought about just not letting her go upstairs at all since that is definitely her hot spot, but how feasible is that....or is it?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

She was almost certainly reacting to your nephew's fear. That is all the more reason to give her a safe space--his reaction and your subsequent reaction reinforces her issues. 

I have had two fear aggressive dogs: Kai and Basu. Basu actually had to bite someone in the butt for me to wake up that I had to do things differently. He was adopted at age 4.5 and had not been socialized and had been abused and neglected. He was terrified of people but he was also 80 pounds of german shepherd and he thought he had to protect himself. People flailing their arms was a HUGE trigger for him. 

Body language is everything to dogs and until they learn that their person will handle scary situations for them you have to learn every single one of the dog's triggers. You have to anticipate what will set them off and you have to learn to read their body language so that you know when they are about to go off. While I was counter-conditioning Basu he was on a leash the entire time people were over and the other end of the leash was in my hand. He got treats for being quiet and he got treats for lying nicely on his bed. If someone looked at him he would bark. I instructed visitors on how to act around him. No one was to look at him or touch him until I gave the go ahead. For Basu it took years until he was trustworthy but that was because I got him as a middle aged dog. 

I was consistent, clear and confident around Basu and Kai and that worked well for both of them. Kai was much more challenging because he was genetically shy and fearful and as he matured more issues came up. Unlike with Basu (who I got under control in the house in a matter of months) Kai was never able to be loose when people were in the house. I crated him away from the people, for his own safety.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

For my first fear aggressive sheep spending time in boarding helped (I had to travel for work). She was forced to rely on and ineract with strangers in boarding.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Cassidy's mom I totally hear you, but my son has Asperger's so he flaps and screams all the time,lol. As a matter of fact before Zoe he would destroy things when he was having a meltdown, put his head through walls, cry for hours on end, fall all over the floor, and pretty much harm himself and whatever was in his path. Zoe from day one would jump up when he started shrieking and lick his face, lay on him, and rest her head of his chest. Instantly his tantrums stopped. We were considering medication for him because he had a great deal of difficulty being in a school setting and at home, but with Zoe he never gets to the point of a complete meltdown because she intervenes untold like clockwork every time.

So if she can tolerate him why not another child who by no means was being that odd- just really scared?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Because the other child isn't hers. I, and anyone in my family, can stare at Jax and the most she'll do is stare back or jump up and lick your face.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Zoeys mom said:


> Cassidy's mom I totally hear you, but my son has Asperger's so he flaps and screams all the time,lol. As a matter of fact before Zoe he would destroy things when he was having a meltdown, put his head through walls, cry for hours on end, fall all over the floor, and pretty much harm himself and whatever was in his path. Zoe from day one would jump up when he started shrieking and lick his face, lay on him, and rest her head of his chest. Instantly his tantrums stopped. We were considering medication for him because he had a great deal of difficulty being in a school setting and at home, but with Zoe he never gets to the point of a complete meltdown because she intervenes untold like clockwork every time.
> 
> So if she can tolerate him why not another child who by no means was being that odd- just really scared?


I could do anything around and/or with Basu or Kai and they were just fine. But someone else doing unpredictable, large and/or loud things were scary.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes I kinda figured I guess Ms. Zoe will be living in my kitchen when we have guests to avoid any oops bites. I need to find someone willing to come to my home for training and helping me figure out all her triggers since right now it seems any new person in the house is a trigger. Especially young kids who tend to run around and scream. Maybe leashing her when adults are over would be a good idea because they are more predictable and able to follow simple directions. I could build her confidence that way by not allowing anyone to touch her or come to close but just keeping her in the same room controlled is a start


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've read thru this thread and my feeling is maybe Zoe is thinking she has to protect your son from his friend. When my kids friends come down the stairs from the bedroom areas no matter what time of day or how often they see these kids, the females will bark. It is an alerting reaction(not that I think its ok, it just happens)
Then when the boy started his reactive behaviors it ramped Zoe up. 
I would still go with the peacable paws or foster volunteers if you can, but understand too where she is coming from and don't set her up to fail.
Practicing NILIF only goes so far with fear reactive dogs. Confidence building is wonderful, so the less corrections and redirections are best. Remember too that a leash will cause reactive behaviors, I'd rather use a crate instead of leashing her to you. Do you have the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt? It is wonderful for reactive behaviors.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I think having someone come to help you in your home is the best idea - good luck finding someone!!

I think that perhaps your attitude about locking her in the kitchen might be making situations worse. If I feel guilty about doing something, leaving the dogs behind, or putting them in their crates etc they are 10x worse, they drag their feet, whine, look pathetic etc. However, if I make a big show about leaving them with a new bone or a kong filled with goodies, they are THRILLED to see me walk out that door!

What if when you have visitors over it's a huge party where you give her a kong or something and gate her off - every single time you have a visitor she doesn't know. Then perhaps she will start to equate visitors with being comfortable in her own space, she doesn't need to worry about "protecting" you, your children or your home and your visitors aren't threatened. Maybe the best route is to take the options away entirely and then slowly add them back in - with the help of a trainer. I would also not allow visitors to come up to her gated area and stare, talk to or try to pet or treat. This might result in guarding behavior to that area specifically. However, I think if you keep it casual and don't stress and be happy she might fall for it...


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

We are so patient though with this beast,lol I don't yell at her, grab her, or freak out. She gets a no Zoe or eh eh followed by the crate command which she happily goes to. She does get a chew when she goes in and she doesn't whine or cry to come out at all. No heel dragging or other dramatic behavior just a simple okay mom I'm off and thats it. I feel bad because I am human- she on the other hand is just fine with being ousted, but when guests are here overnight it's harder. She got extra walks today to burn off the zoomies and a very yummy dinner, but I guess I just want her to be able to coexist with my guests without issue. I also realistically know this is not going to happen quite like that, but I'd settle for her simply ignoring them

And yes in home training is necessary right now. We did beginner and intermediate puppy classes and she did well- it's in the home we have an issue. I need a trainer to see her lose it so they can pinpoint what the issue is and how we manage it. She loves her leash so I'm not sure it would increase her reactivity, but it may. I just can't sit and say watch me while bestowing hot dogs and string cheese to her highness for the entire time our guests are over....kinda ruins me interacting with the other humans in the room. I usually crate her, let her smell, see, and hear the strangers; and then take her out for a few minutes of watch me while loading her up on treats then back to the crate. We make it fun and use our best aren't you the best doggie noises, but it's been 6 months now and it just isn't making much of a difference


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think Zoey is protecting Zoey. I do not think Zoey thinks she is in charge. I think Zoey is wired to think that anyone out of the ordinary is scarey. 

I know you have socialized and trained Zoey. 

I think maybe there is a book called, help for the shy dog that may help. Another is by Patricia McConnel, I think the dog whisperer, it may help. 

Really, we are ALL only guessing and trying to help here. It would be best to take it to a qualified trainer or behaviorist. 

She will not take treats from anyone other than you, but you can treat for positive outgoing behavior, and totally ignore any fearful behavior, but I would NOT ignore her charging at or barking at someone. 

Yes, I think the fear and the staring caused your dog to react. I think she is reactive, or fear aggressive. I think you need a professional who has worked with shepherds and has a good reputation to help you to manage and improve the behavior. 

Sorry that is not very helpful.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Maybe I'm "old school" BUT.....I don't think that giving treats to our dogs for "expected" positive behaviours is warranted.
I think we cause more problems by allowing our dogs to be "rewarded" from ourselves and others, when they are being taught or forced to face "unsure" situations..?!
I believe that we then...*reinforce* their insecurities.
If a dog is raised from puppy hood around specific situations (that become the norm in their everyday lives)...I don't think negative responses from them "later" to these things are acceptable.....especially when it involves children.
I think there is appropriate times from "reward"...as there are for proper "discipline".....each action should be addressed accordingly.
..jmo..
Robin


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

With a dog that has weak nerves you have to do things differently. You aren't reenforcing the behaviors when rewarding, but redirecting them and when the dog is redirected they get rewarded(if the timing is right and done properly).
If you constantly correct a dog when it reacts at whatever, the dog will see the correction as coming from what it is reacting to and associate it with negative.
If you redirect the dog from what it is reacting to(or hopefully watch body language and stop it before it even begins) then reward the focus back to you it does work. The LAT(look at that game) works for dogs with reactive behavior. It may take a bit longer than corrections, but over time works.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jane,
I must be one of the "old dogs then"...
I cannot accept "new" fearful aggressive reactions to everyday situations & people, that dogs have been surrounded by since puppy-hood.....and "reward" or "redirect" them from displaying those reactions...?!
To me...it's like rewarding negative responses...AFTER... a learned/taught behaviour.
I would rather "correct" (I don't mean beat) such an action with a negative "reaction"...than reinforce it....or cause any "gray area"...in the dog's mind.
Weak nerved dogs are never totally reliable....and fearful tendencies can manifest at a split moment. 
Dogs learn by *action/reaction*...and I am a HUGE fan of positive reinforcement....BUT...there are such instances, that warrant "tough love" (so to speak).
I think there is a very fine line that is too easily crossed, when rewarding a dog for NOT showing aggressive response's....or for NOT showing fearful actions.
Personally, I would rather my dog KNOW that an undesired aggressive action, will result in the same type of reaction from me (the pack leader).

*I respect your views & many, many times agree with you 100%...this is just one issue, that I have reservations on.*
Respectfully,
Robin


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Robin - thankfully for you, you are probably not as used to dealing with dogs who are in this bracket nerve wise. Basically when you correct, they transfer their fear of whatever to you - so there is compliance, but no learning, no retraining of neural paths, no conditioned behaviors that can replace their old behaviors. 

When you do the conditioning, redirecting, learning, they can adopt new, better behaviors. THEN, the best part, is that the dog can do these things without being attached - to a leash, to an e-collar - much more easily. 

I agree that Zoey needs to feel someone is in charge though. Not so that she doesn't act out but more so that she doesn't feel the need to protect herself. 

In the OP, there was a list of times that her mom said "I should have" and the dog was waiting, please, for the love of Dog woman, step up...and finally she just said screw it, I guess it's on me. 

The good thing is that the OP recognizes those things - because a lot of people miss them entirely. Now the next thing she needs to do is act on them. 

A too high stress level makes learning difficult - so these are not the times to train - these are the times to protect the dog from herself. 

Worth it just to read the archives: shy-k9s : shy-k9s


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

^^ Jean knows what she's talking about!! She's rehab'd some really serious fearful dogs!!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jean...I do understand about compliance because of correction...
My "problem" in redirecting fearful aggression in (everyday living) stems from a dog that has lived in the same situation(s) since puppy-hood.....
In my "mind" (block head)...I cannot accept this type of "aggression" with a positive reinforcement....or redirection.
My concern is that this dog is now reacting to stimuli that has been a part of it's normal everyday existence...?!
*example* If one of my dogs (after being brought up with children & my 4yr old grandson)...decides to react aggressive towards him over normal stimuli..?!
to me...that is unacceptable, and my reaction would be of "negative consequences".
I wish that I have not had instances of "weak nerved" dogs...I'd be lying to say otherwise. 
Much thanks to you & Jane...for trying to help me *see things differently*...but I have my reservations on this particular topic.
I hope that the OP finds the information needed to correct her situation.....that is most important! 
respectfully,
Robin


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

If I am reading this correctly though...the dog isn't reacting to what she was always comfortable with (i.e. her family / same routine / same situation/ what she has always lived with) but to strangers........

The OP said she has always been fearful of strangers..this isn't new behavior..it's always been her weakness....and...in this case...she isn't suddenly reacting her boy...but a strange new boy...which is actually normal for her...she's fearful of strangers.


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## RascalsMomSue (Feb 24, 2008)

Wes Jenson of Arrowwood Shepherds in Woodbine (www.arrowwoodshepherds.org) or Ethan Hall of Capitol K-9 (www.capitolk9.com) are not that far from you either....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> Jean...I do understand about compliance because of correction...
> My "problem" in redirecting fearful aggression in (everyday living) stems from a dog that has lived in the same situation(s) since puppy-hood.....
> In my "mind" (block head)...I cannot accept this type of "aggression" with a positive reinforcement....or redirection.
> My concern is that this dog is now reacting to stimuli that has been a part of it's normal everyday existence...?!
> ...


It can be a difficult concept to wrap your head around, especially if you're used to only rewarding the behavior you want to reinforce, which is how I learned to train initially. The difference with fear based behaviors is that you're not actually rewarding _the behavior_ when you counter-condition, you're changing the dogs emotional response to the trigger. And when you do that, the behavior extinguishes on it's own because there is no longer a reason for it. 

If this boy causes Zoe fear/stress/anxiety with his presence and HIS emotions (which she is likely feeding off of), and consequently she acts out with an aggressive display designed to scare him away, then simply correcting her for it can backfire - you've just given her even more reason to not want him around because he's now associated with bad things happening to her. BUT, if you can change her emotional response to him by pairing his presence (at a distance, where she knows he's there but he's not close enough to really bother her) with good stuff, then eventually she will start to look forward to him being around. And the bad behavior (barking and lunging) along with the fear/stress anxiety simply goes away. 

I totally understand correcting a dog for being a butthead, and there is definitely behavior I won't tolerate, but my dogs aren't fearful either. I have had a fearful dog (Cassidy), and ME staying calm, relaxed and happy in the presence of her triggers, as well as making her feel that way, really helped.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I did read the stranger issue....that's my concern.
The OP stated that she has always had people in and out of the house, since the dog was 10wks old....and she has always had an issue about it.
My concern is...."Why still is it an issue"?...it should be the "norm"...
Because this is not a puppy anymore...I don't think the dog has "learned" properly that this behaviour is totally unacceptable.
The dog doesn't have to "like" strangers...but I think it should have learned to "accept" the situation of strangers in the home..when the owners are present.
That is my concern with "positive redirection" at this point of age and situation....
I DO believe in positive learning...absolutely!
Robin
*am I explaining myself understandably?*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, I should add that the idea of counter-conditioning is that you start with the dog below threshold, BEFORE they react. If the dog is already reacting then you've moved too far too fast. So you're not really rewarding them for bad behavior.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Myamom said:


> If I am reading this correctly though...the dog isn't reacting to what she was always comfortable with (i.e. her family / same routine / same situation/ what she has always lived with) but to strangers........
> 
> The OP said she has always been fearful of strangers..this isn't new behavior..it's always been her weakness....and...in this case...she isn't suddenly reacting her boy...but a strange new boy...which is actually normal for her...she's fearful of strangers.


Yes - that. 

And the dog keeps getting pushed over her threshold, never allowing her to learn how to behave around strangers. She's not being taught anything. So we all agree that has to take place. 

I will give a correction - but like to do so after I know the dog gets what I want. And depending on the dog the correction may be a verbal redirection to get them doing what I want. Either way, as long as they are doing what we want, it is okay. But I don't think this dog knows what anyone wants.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We do train with positive reinforcement and positive direction....but we also use "negative response when warranted"....
I think training and rearing should be a solid combination of both.
Robin
*God....I must be a (rock-head)...maybe I expect too much from the dogs?...


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes, I saw Zoe get uncomfortable and I didn't remove her from the situation....I wanted her to tolerate him which was a mistake and I knew it before it happened. My nephew is now scarred because of my mistake though he was particularly afraid of shepherds before he ever met Zoe. His genius parents had a neighbor with a shepherd who was a biter and never let any of the kids get within 20 ft. of this dog. They taught them shepherds are mean and not to go near them, and his fear as unnatural as it is, was reinforced by me ignoring her cues to get her away. 

So now he says the dog with the big teeth is mean and yes she certainly was to him. To make matters worse he just left with my son for the bay and now my other nephew is coming home with my daughter.....my other nephew is just not nice to dogs so both of them have to be locked away from him. The lab will tolerate his abuse, but I don't allow that and Zoe will tear into him so here goes another day with her locked up because we have guests in the house. 

Zoe has always been suspicious of strangers so a lot of this is fear based IMO though I need a professional set of eyes that are unbiased. I love my furry butt head but I need to build her confidence around new people coming inside since new people outside don't faze her at all. We do the treats and praise for short periods letting her in and out of the crate but it's a constant battle. Another thing that just dawned on me is Zoe seems fine with strangers when it's just her and my DH- she gets nasty when my kids are home?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It seems that even though she was socialized with strangers, she opted to interact with you only even when away from home. If she were my dog, I would put her into boarding for a couple of days - from time to time. There are some nice places that take dogs for walks or play with them. With you out of the picure, she will be forced to take food from strangers and interact with them. Gradually she will figure out that strangers are not necessarily bad. I had several fear aggressive dogs and boarding helped quite a bit. I had to do it because of travel for work. They usually don't have the guts to engage when the owner is not around.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This is an overused phrase, but Zoey needs a leader. 

IF she is fearful, she needs one more than a dog with solid nerve - even more "dominant" dogs. Just that leadership looks a little different. 

But with all the sturm and drang of the holidays, I wouldn't be trying anything new. There are far worse fates for dogs who snark than to be locked up for a few days during the holidays - worse is to feel bad for her, keep her out, let her connect with someone and be labeled a truly dangerous dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Yes to the stronger leader and yes to understanding triggers and thresholds. I am someone who uses negative markers but with truly fearful dogs I haven't found them particularly useful. The dog may or may not shut down the behavior b/c of the marker but if they are already over their threshold (which, at first, is usually very small/short) then (as Jean or someone said) no learning takes place. Kai and Basu were both like that. Basu would stop the behavior but would shut down and Kai wouldn't stop the behavior but would actually get more amped up. 

With both dogs I had to take baby steps with the counter conditioning and was very careful to set up situations where I could control what was happening. If I couldn't control it (like with children) then I crated them for their own security. The leadership part comes in because the dogs needs to learn that you are in charge in these scary situations and that you aren't going to allow anyone near the dog if the the dog is scared. That's why proofing something like Watch Me and LAT away from any triggers is so important.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Just a note to add, I am not an experienced dog person like Ruth or Jean or Debbie, but I was able to desensitize our fear aggressive Wolf. The info at shyK9s is great and the whole method of changing the dog's mind about his triggers actually works, even for the unskilled-like me. It can take time, but it all depends on Zoe herself.

It's always safe to agree with Jean  but like she said, this season is not the best time to begin a behavior modification program. Keep Zoe safe and with a good volunteer stranger or even just people out on walks-set her up for success.

MJ


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## Helios (Aug 29, 2010)

I am not an experienced dog person like Mary Jane said but Helios is a "Psycho" when it comes to someone getting inside the house too. What has worked wonders for me is making a call to whoever is coming to tell them to call me back when they are near my house so that I can go out with helios leashed and wait outside the house right next to the door _then_ I tell them to go inside and helios doesn't seem to mind at all. 

But if Helios is inside the house it's a different story,he'll bark bark and bark. And If i tell him sit he'll do it and keep barking that's while they're outside and it gets worse when I open the door and they get inside. I've to choke him in order to make him stop which he does immediately because he'll bark and lunge. It takes him like 5min to relax _IF_ I don't redirect his attention to a toy yet We always tell the guest to ignore helios because after he has settled if someone does something funny to make him "play" he'll try to play with them but I know that they're not used to helios and he plays rough so I just tell them to ignore him :smirk:



RebelGSD said:


> I had a (forever) foster who was like Zoe. He was surrendered after biting the delivery guy in the butt (just minor). I used to introduce him to new people in front of the house. They would take him for a walk without meandthen they would walk into the house together. You should try upping your leadership. YOU are in in charge of defending the house, not Zoe. NILIF


This is what I kinda do, Introduce him to the people that'll go inside the house in front of the house. As long as he's outside the house while they get in he's okay.

Yesterday a friend of mine came without even mentioning and when i went to the garage helios started his usual thing _BUT_ what seemed to help was the fact that she came with a Bulldog. I made him sit while opening the door but he could careless about her all he wanted to do is sniff the bulldog.



RebelGSD said:


> It seems that even though she was socialized with strangers, she opted to interact with you only even when away from home. If she were my dog, I would put her into boarding for a couple of days - from time to time. There are some nice places that take dogs for walks or play with them. With you out of the picure, she will be forced to take food from strangers and interact with them. Gradually she will figure out that strangers are not necessarily bad. I had several fear aggressive dogs and boarding helped quite a bit. I had to do it because of travel for work. They usually don't have the guts to engage when the owner is not around.


This is true. Helios spent a few weeks with a trainer a few months ago and then again 19 days while my family and I were out of the country for vacations . She has a big place there, dogs and workers who usually are there most of the time. The fact that he spent those few weeks a few months ago seemed to help him A LOT. There were always workers passing by, and stuff he had never seen before such as a tractor,pool,etc.

Another thing that seems to trigger his behavior is the doorbell I think. I will start to desensitize him from it and I will see it if helps.

EDIT: Helios is 9MO


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

So what are some specific ways to up my leadership with her so she becomes more confident? She's a pro at watch me which is good to get her out of the area to her crate without incident, but does nothing when she's already over threshold. I had no clue what the LAT game was until I watched that video and that is exactly what I do when adult guests are over. I make her focus on me....or the treat and toy really and keep her busy. She is treated while focused and redirected when she looks away at them instead of me. The problem is I can't stand there feeding her treats and playing with her for hours while we have company and it's a little rude

What are some leadership building methods I can practice alone with her?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Read the dog Whisperer By Jan Fennel. I said Patricia McConnel before. She is good too, but Jan Fennel respond to this exact question and has rehabbed dogs too. I thought her book was well written. 

I do not believe that being harsh with a dog who is acting out of fear will do what you need. I think there is great danger of making things worse.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Zoeys mom said:


> So what are some specific ways to up my leadership with her so she becomes more confident? She's a pro at watch me which is good to get her out of the area to her crate without incident, but does nothing when she's already over threshold. I had no clue what the LAT game was until I watched that video and that is exactly what I do when adult guests are over. I make her focus on me....or the treat and toy really and keep her busy. She is treated while focused and redirected when she looks away at them instead of me. The problem is I can't stand there feeding her treats and playing with her for hours while we have company and it's a little rude
> 
> What are some leadership building methods I can practice alone with her?


You are beyond the back and forth on a forum - you need a real live person working with you at this point, someone who has a good understanding of all kinds of dog behaviors. 

I am sure other people will continue to respond, but I would be afraid that any further suggestions I made would be counterproductive to her/your progress. Because there are infinitesimal behaviors that are happening that we cannot see and could be SO important. 

Did I read that Zoey is currently in heat?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Oh yes the princess is in heat for the holidays with a new cat in the house and probably extra stressed. I have tomorrow off work so I will resume calling around for an in home behaviorist willing to work with her indoor aggression issues. We love her despite her quirks, but want to understand how to avoid them without crating her for the duration our company is here every time. Around kids, yes she will ALWAYS now be crated I can't trust her, but I would like to be able to have friends come in without such an issue


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book that Selzer is talking about is The Dog Listener(not whisperer) by Jan Fennell







Amazon.com: The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation (9780060089467): Jan Fennell: Books 
I would get in touch with a behaviorist that is recommended in your area for more help...I wish I had had someone work with me during Onyx's peak phase of FA.(she was 12 months and it was about a year after that when I was able to get her in a Control Unleashed class. That really helped me to manage her.
She has, at maturity become a much better dog, but I still cannot have her around small children.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree Onyx, and thank you for finding the book and correcting the title -- that is the one. 

I think that reading AND working with someone in person is good because unfortunately, there are a lot of trainers/behaviorists that do not have a good set of skills. How do you as a consumer know that they do not. How long do you give them and how much damage do you do to the dog while you do the ole college try? 

Anything you feel REALLY uncomfortable with, Don't do, consider it, sleep on it, bring it to the forum and weed out replies that make sense. 

Good luck with Zoey. Don't beat yourself up about it. What you have been doing, hasn't done the trick up to this point, so a change in leadership style might be helpful. 

Evenso, if Zoey did this to a stranger stealing your TV, she would be a hero.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes, that is my concern with choosing a trainer....how do I know they know what their doing since I sure don't. Will I know if they are doing damage? Probably not I can safely say no one is walking out with any of my plasma's any time soon though,lol I just want our friends and family to be comfortable around her.

My parents are dog saavy and raised me with dobes. She went after my dad once barking and he stood there looking away but firm on his feet. He didn't make a sound or put his hands on her...just stood there. She stopped right at his hand, looked at him, sniffed, and went to her crate looking defeated. Then when I was just let out of the hospital and my mom was in town she opened my bedroom door to check on me- Zoe lunged barking at her. My mom gave a firm no and walked her downstairs to her crate- Zoe now loves both of my parents I think because they didn't tolerate her butt headedness. She licks them, plays with them, and is happy to have them visit- same with my BIL Zoe lunges at a few months ago while rough housing with my son. They are now best friends and whenever I'm in the hospital he is the one who comes midday to walk them- she definitely has the hots for him

So all this tells me she is able to interact with other adults...just not willing to concede at first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am glad your parents are dog savy. I am not saying what they did is wrong. I think that you have to step up to the plate more. The dog needs to know from you what she did wrong. 

I am out of my league on this as I have not had a problem like this. I want to say keep the dog on line when you think there may be an issue, and if anything escallates, keep your cool, tell the dog firmly, No. and put her in her safe place. 

But I could be telling you completely wrong too. The thing is, if a trainer/behaviorist gave you the same advice, I would say it sounds good. And it may be just as bad. If you understand me. So listen to the people who have experience working with fearful, reactive, or aggressive dogs first. And hopefully people who really do not know what the heck they are talking about will admit it so that we do not compound the problem.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Pat Miller though is pretty highly regarded, eh?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

robinhuerta said:


> We do train with positive reinforcement and positive direction....but we also use "negative response when warranted"....
> I think training and rearing should be a solid combination of both.
> Robin
> *God....I must be a (rock-head)...maybe I expect too much from the dogs?...


Robin,

I don't think you are a rock head and I don't think you expect too much from a dog. 

We have a similar situation with our rescue girl Sasha. She is terrified of strangers - inside the house, outside the house, at the store - doesn't matter where. She will back at them to try and scare them away the whole time she's looking for an escape route. If cornered I don't doubt she would bite.

But, when we invite someone into our house I expect a certain degree of behavior from the dogs. From the Cresteds it's "don't leap into the people arms and start drenching their face with your tongues". For Mauser (the GSD) it's "don't grab your dirtiest toy and drop it in the person's lap and STARE at them until they throw it". 

For Sasha it's basically "Shut Up". We do NOT allow her to bark her head off in the house when we have people over.

When people first come in the dogs make a ruckus. I let everyone bark for about a minute (sometimes less) and then say "ENOUGH" in a very stern voice. I use that command to mean "stop whatever you are doing".

Usually all the dog but Sasha stop barking on the first command (Tazer I don't count 'cause he's pretty much deaf now).

If she doesn't stop I get in her face and say "THAT. IS. ENOUGH!".

Regardless of her fears she needs to learn that barking at people after I let them in the house is NOT allowed.

We do ask people to feed her treats and all that to try to make friends with her, and sometimes it helps. She has a long way to go but she's more the homebody type so we don't put as much effort into retraining her as we normally would.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Could it be the jumping around and flailing the arms that set her off? That's erratic behavior, and if she already has issues that kind of screaming jumping, fast movements, etc is going to make the situation worse. I know that when people, especially kids, are jumping around, it gets Wolfie hyper. He runs straight for that person and jumps on them. He isn't looking to attack, he's looking to play. He doesn't have issues with company in the house, but that behavior is a trigger.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well little Ms. Zoe the demon just surprised me when my SIL who she barely knows walked in unexpected. She just walked in- no knocking or warning she was coming. There are no kids here tonight...not even mine and she walked right up to her, sniffed, wagged her tail, and asked for a pet. Really Zoe? My retarded self came flying down the stairs giving the crate command until I noticed her happy relaxed state.. My DH swears Zoe only acts up when the kids are around. Being I NEVER don't have my kids in tow I wouldn't know this personally. She took treats from my SIL, licked her, and was perfectly fine for about 20 minutes until she left. Could she be protecting my kids from strangers and not scared? My DH has had the guys over for games when me and the kids leave for the day to shop with his mom or do other non football related stuff and Zoe is fine with all his loud obnoxious male friends- she handles them better than me. DH says the kids and me make Zoe crazy- is this even possible?

Who is Pat Miller and is he located in or around Maryland? I think I will google him now.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

LOL Pat Miller is from Peaceable Paws, but they don't do home visits that I can tell Still searching.....


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Zoe sounds a great deal like my Nadia. She simply does not like strangers. I know this and because of her dislike for strangers, this is what I do:

When I am expecting someone, be it my son, friends, whomever, they let me know when they will be here and I first make sure the dogs are tired. Good game of fetch at the least, walks and free run at the park if I have time. Then, when company arrives, Nadia is always crated. People come in, sit, we chat and I casually reach down and unlock the crate. She is allowed to greet and sniff. Then she comes and lays by my side. Once in a blue moon she will meet someone that she appears to be especially fond of, and that's okay too. One time my friends house mate came over with her, and Nadia was all over him! Licking him, sitting in his lap practically and laying on his feet(that is One occasion in a year and a half!). As long as she is well behaved, no problem! If a guest gets up to use the restroom or anything else, I hold Nadia so she cannot go after them. If I did not hold onto her collar she would try to grab them by the calf of their leg. So I just make sure she does not have the opportunity. That way, she does not fail at meeting a stranger. It is normally not a mushy success, but it is not a failure either. The only possible failure in our situation, is when I fail her by not taking total control of our environment, so she feels she has to. Oh, and when it comes to kids, I have to be extra careful. My older two grandkids can do whatever they want to her, but all the younger kids~ we have a hands off and a no running policy here and at the same time, because kids forget easily, Nadia is tethered to me in their presence, or crated.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes I realize I need to stop expecting behaviors she's not comfortable giving just yet. I expected her to tolerate my nephew, knew she wasn't, and still didn't crate her....I failed not her. I like the tether idea and it is something I may try and see if it increases or decreases her reactivity. It looks like Peaceable Paws will do home visits after all so I'll be calling early Monday. I want her assessed with me and the kids around, and then just with my DH since he swears she's a different dog in our absence. I can't say he's lying but I've never seen it myself,lol


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Zoeys mom said:


> I called her off and gave the crate command and she obediently went to the crate, but I can't just keep her crated every time we have company for the day- it's mean


 It is more "mean" to repeatedly force a dog into a situation that she isn't capable of dealing with in a way that humans find appropriate. Not only is it not mean to keep her away from your guests, right now it is the best and most responsible thing for everyone involved including and especially Zoe.

I suggest reading up on "bite thresholds" to better help you understand what happened with Zoe and your nephew. This article explains it pretty well: How Are Dog Bites Like Tetris?




Zoeys mom said:


> I'm open to your opinions and don't think your being harsh at all. Apparently Zoe does think she is in charge when it comes to people coming in the home and I don't know how I created this. She is just so obedient otherwise. She doesn't need a lead when we're outdoors, we go hiking, fishing, to friends homes, the store, and she is a perfect angel. Then someone walks in the house and she goes absolutely berserk.


 Where would you get the idea that Zoe thinks she is in charge? You acknowledged in your first post that she has never been comfortable with strangers in the house. And later on that she is so stressed by strangers that she won't even take food from them. That does not describe a dog who "thinks she is in charge". It describes a nervous, stressed dog who is dealing with her stress the only way she, as a dog is knows how to. 

People have suggested some decent books but I think Ruff Love by Susan Garrett would be the most appropriate for your situation. It is a fairly short, very easy to follow book that deal with behavior more than dealing with fancy notions of "alpha", who should eat first and who should go through doors first (none of which really matters to dogs when you are looking to change behavior). It is a fairly strict program to start but much of what it outlines is very applicable to your situation.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not sure if Zoe thinks she is in charge or is generally fearful. I wonder because outside she is not at all fearful of strangers. I wouldn't call her friendly, but we've never had an outdoor incident since she was 12 weeks old- she just ignores people on the whole. I also keep wondering about DH's insistence she doesn't react this way when me and the kids are gone. Now he is a little dog retarded, but you can't miss her flying across the room barking so again if it is fear why does it only manifest in the presence of me and my children?

This is what I need another set of eyes for. I'm not pompous enough to think I can self diagnose my beast. I am her owner and completely flawed with bias's because I love her. I need to step away and let someone experienced tell me like it is. Whether it is fear or leadership issues I obviously have not been doing something right and if I could figure it out I wouldn't be posting. I know from now on when guests come she has to be crated...no wiggling on that. No possibility to react is a success even a small one. It's all the stuff I need to be doing after I'm hazy on.

I'll definitely be ordering a few books tomorrow and calling Peaceable Paws. Maybe they will see something I am missing and have some ideas on how to desensitize her to new people coming inside.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It seems like she thinks that she has to protect you and the kids and not your husband.
GSDs can be quite protective of children, they can sense that they are "puppies".
As far as you are concerned, you can try different, more self-confident posture (make yourself bigger and watch Cesar Millan ;-)

The dog is stressed out because she feels that she has to protect but she does not have the nerves and self-confidence.
More outside obedience/agility classes that build self-confidence will help.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would take a guess that you could be on to something with her and your child, Do you have any friends that would be willing to put it to the test other than your SIL who passed ? 

I would set her up again, with a stranger who's willing of course to do just what your SIL did, without the kids around..would be interesting to see the results.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You posted awhile back that your son has Asbergers and Zoe will show herself as a therapy dog to him when he is stressing and she is protective of him. 
I think in the instance of your sons friend coming down the stairs which isn't a public area of the home, Zoe did react in a way of "protecting" your son. Still it isn't appropriate behavior and she does need help in looking to you or even your son and the rest of the family before she takes it upon herself to react. 
I think Diane's suggestion is good, but you need to know how to handle Zoe if/when she reacts during the scenario.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

It is definitely very important to know how to read your dog and act on it, no matter what. Indoors, outdoors, upstairs, downstairs, everywhere. 

I think that is the most important lesson I ever learned regarding Nadia. That and to accept the fact that she may never be a calm, accepting dog. I had to face the fact that she is my work in progress and will always need guidance to reach her potential. I would never try the experiment above with her for fear that it would not go well. I need every experience to be positive. She gets verbal corrections for inappropriate behaviors but they are verbal because that is what she responds to the best. 

I do wonder if I had a professional evaluate her (like Cesar Milan or the like), what the results would be.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

zoeys mom said:


> yes i realize i need to stop expecting behaviors she's not comfortable giving just yet. I expected her to tolerate my nephew, knew she wasn't, and still didn't crate her....i failed not her. I like the tether idea and it is something i may try and see if it increases or decreases her reactivity. * it looks like peaceable paws will do home visits after all so i'll be calling early monday.* i want her assessed with me and the kids around, and then just with my dh since he swears she's a different dog in our absence. I can't say he's lying but i've never seen it myself,lol


Excellent Excellent Excellent!

Her books on dogwise: http://www.dogwise.com/search.cfm


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well my son was about to go up the stairs when Zoe rushed by him to bark at Luke my nephew so I do believe her bond with him is part of the problem- maybe she thought Luke was going toward Nate my son when in fact it was my son going toward him. Either way I am my son's mother, this is my house, and those are my stairs,lol My kids will be back today but we are leaving to go ice skating so I will see if DH wants to invite one of his lovely friends over.

I e-mailed Peaceable Paws so hopefully after the New Year we can start some training with Ms. Thing and see if in fact it is the kids, fear/confidence issues, or resource guarding our house. Hopefully they will have a game plan to make us more successful


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Or both!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Zoeys mom said:


> I want her assessed with me and the kids around, and then just with my DH since he swears she's a different dog in our absence. I can't say he's lying but I've never seen it myself,lol


Very good idea!!

If you have a video camera (or can borrow one) I would set it up so you can then watch and see if and how she behaves differently with your husband.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well he had his clan of butt heads over yesterday while we were all out ice skating and all boys say she was an angel. She just lays in her open crate when we are gone and ignores everyone. This tells me she is not comfortable with his guests, but all the same can remain under threshold and ignore them. I'll be interested to see what a professionals ideas are because I have exhausted my doggie knowledge on this girl,lol


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you don't want to crate her put her in another room with the door closed.
you have to contain her untill she learns how to behave
around me people.



Zoeys mom said:


> She scared the pee put of him literally I called her off and gave the crate command and she obediently went to the crate, but I can't just keep her crated every time we have company for the day- it's mean


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Zoe could easily be both very protective & fearful, which is a combination fraught with the potential for trouble. 

Kudos to you for thinking this through, remaining open minded & acting NOW. I strongly agree with Jean that these situations are beyond what discussion boards can reliably provide. IMO, knowledgeable professionals s/b consulted whenever a dog shows the potential to be dangerous. Any dog that's a risk to others is an even greater risk to itself.

The lively discourse b/w Robin, Laurie, Jean, Jane & Ruth has been deeply, Deeply, DEEPLY thought provoking. LOL. I find myself nodding in agreement to somewhat opposing views b/c you've all presented such well reasoned & intelligent arguments. I suspect there is more than a grain of truth even in these opposing views. 

My only advice in this situation is:

1) Yep, professional help. A limitation of discussion boards is that others must rely on written descriptions of what is transpiring. In a world where so many can't distinguish playing from fighting, or fear avoidance from protection, it s/b remembered that many behavioral descriptions could be incomplete &/or inaccurate.

2) Get a feel for those proffering advice. Knowledge & experience is allll over the place on discussion boards. I have many years experience with dogs...confident, outgoing dogs with solid nerves who are not reactive, not unduly suspicious, with loooong fuses, who don't rile easily, are excellent with people & other dogs & aren't inclined to bite. Even decades of experience with such dogs can't qualify me to provide training advice to people struggling to succeed with fearful, nervous, reactive dogs. I suspect there are others as limited as myself who simply don't realize it. 

3) Remember that simplistic solutions are often, at best, inadequate & can be downright bad (ie the 'alpha roll' that was recommended willy nilly for so many years). Practicing NILIF & establishing firm, fair leadership are good ideas, but fearful, insecure dogs might require considerably more to build their confidence & develop their potential.

4) In fearful dogs, that anxiety is only one component of their temperament. Zoe appears to be fearful, protective & perhaps somewhat suspicious. Professional behaviorists should assess all aspects of the dogs temperament & personality to better understand/ define the problems & devise solutions. Triggers, reactivity levels & responses s/b identified, analyzed & ultimately understood in the context of the total dog & its unique situation.

Zoe is fortunate to have landed with a family dedicated to helping her succeed with the savvy to seek constructive solutions. I look forward to seeing how Zoeys mom succeeds with her b/c I do believe they will succeed.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Zoe is extraordinarily suspicious and always has been...of everything,lol She notices when we move something out of it's spot, she has to investigate everything new, and even notices and points out things that have changed on our walks. She is also protective of our home and children, and possibly fearful of new people though sometimes I'm unsure. She confidently goes after people and doesn't pull away, slink down, or hide behind me like she did as a pup. She just stands her ground and loudly gives get out vibes.

My ex came today to drop my daughter off and he is one of the people Zoe loves- whats wrong with that dog? Anyway he came in as usual without knocking and Zoe ran barking until she saw it was him. Her tail began to wag, she licked his hands, and relished in his pets. Then he commented he'd never seen Kaelyn's room and began to walk upstairs. Zoe ran in front of him blocking the stairs and barking,lol Even he couldn't convince her he belonged up there. So I gave the crate command and he proceeded to go check out her room commenting it was a good thing she didn't allow non family members upstairs. My DH also loves this quality and neither understood why it is a big deal.

So it seems the upstairs, kids around my son, and adults around my son are her main triggers. She barks at strangers when they come in, but only goes in for the bite when they near our stairs or kids. Otherwise she barks, eyes them, and then goes to her crate. I can't wait for these people to get back to me about private training she needs it yesterday.

Part of me can't wait to know where I've gone wrong since I considered myself dog saavy before her. I've had more than one sharp dobe and a fearful pitbull I successfully trained with few issues. I feel like a slight failure here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Because Zoey is a German Shepherd so she is SMART and all then all the other things combined. It is much easier to help make changes in something that is not thinking. That's my opinion anyway! 

The Dobermans I met back when almost all Dobermans were sharp  and the one I lived with (and ending up training) were smart, but not in the same way a GSD is. A pitbull is - well I have no idea. 

Ruby Tuesday - nice summation. I am looking forward to hearing how everything goes with Zoey.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Slight failure!?!? Pffft. You're doing great. Dogs are sentient, complex, multi-dimensional creatures that never simply fit into textbook descriptions. Consequently, we've gotta expect the unexpected to hit now & then.

Jean, a good Pit s/b very smart, capable of sound judgment & a reasoning, thinking dog. They're not *my* breed, but decent examples abound. I'm actually more concerned when people talk of blindly acquiring a GSD than a Pit. Unfortunately, in the past few years, I've been seeing Pits with that 'worried look' that Cliff so eloquently describes (& deplores) in some GSDs. This is the absolute antithesis of a Pit & truly an abomination.


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## Shadow's mum (Mar 13, 2010)

Hi I am by no means an expert, just thought I would add my bit, and I might add I can only go by my experience with my own dogs (past and present, there have been many)
Firstly I too have at least one aspie child, Shadow our GSD is extremely protective and watchful of him even though she is ultimately my older sons dog she will protect and nurture my younger asperger son foremost. She seams to sense when he is distressed and she is there before anyone else can get there, she checks in on him regularly, she needs to know where he is at all times. (need to add-meltdowns have been fewer and further apart since Shadow's arrival, yay) Shadow even went so far as to give a warning nip to my older son for setting my youngest son off one day, (remember she knows she belongs to my oldest and she listens to him impeccably, but she seams to feel it is her job to look after my youngest). Shadow is also very proactive and excited when my youngest has his aspergers friend over. She knows both boys are vulnerable and for want of a better word special, she doesn't show the same intuitiveness towards my 7 yr old nephew who she sees more often than my son's friend. 
I'm telling you all of this because I'm thinking Zoey's maternal/protective instincts are also playing a part in whats going on ( I think there is also a lot of fear involved as well). I also find that the screaming from a meltdown and happy screaming (both can be high pitched) can be confusing and make me even a little high strung. 
Aside from Zoey feeling like she needs to protect your son, I also think there is fear involved. 
After we were broken into, I was reminded by the police that attended that fear and adrenalin release endorphins that dogs can sense and will often react to, either by a fight or flight response. If you have guests over, Zoeys protective mode for you, herself and particularly your son have kicked up a notch, then your guests are aware that she is in the house and they are watching out for her, their fear/adrenalin kicked up a notch, your watchfulness and stress probably edged up to because of past experiences, so the endorphins and stress levels are at a high for her, well over what is normal.
If I've read it right, even though Zoey isn't comfortable with visitors and just your hubby home, she is no where near as bad, so to me obviously she is feeling more secure with his leadership. You defiantly need a professional to help you as you know, but I'm wondering if you could tether her to you for just short bursts whilst visitors are over, hopefully she will pick up that you are calm and these are welcome guests. I would also put a note on the front door telling visitors "that welcome visitors to your home should not fear your dog as she will be tethered to you and under your full supervision", hopefully then, guests will become less nervous being in the house with her and there will be a drop in the fear she is sensing. If possible it would be better to greet them in your front yard and then walk in together, as someone else suggested. Then once she was tethered I would give out yummy treats (something special just for when visitors are over). I would ask all visitors to try to ignore her, don't have them drop treats or anything yet. It would be a long while before I would ask visitors to acknowledge her or treat her. These are all just my opinions.
I would also personally be concerned that crating her or putting her away where she can't keep an eye on whats going on may in fact add to her stress levels and her association with visitors = she gets banished. You need to show her that you are in charge and can keep everyone safe without removing her. Of course she will need some crate time, but I think you could slowly increase her time out tethered to you.
I see it a little like my youngests sons fears, the more I buy into them without hitting them on the head straight away, the worse they become.
Please remember I am no expert these are just my own personal opinions and suggestions. Good luck.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Shadow's mom, Zoe is better with my DH alone, but if me and the kids are home she is the same old protective beast with him there. My son definitely is her hot spot. Our adult friends are not afraid of her at all thank goodness it's mostly his young friends or my daughters friends that we have a problem with. She used to be so good with kids too so this is all kinda new. Her crate is in the area we spend time in so she can see our guests and doesn't throw a tantrum in her crate unless one of them gets within a few feet of the crate. I'm still impatiently waiting for peaceable paws to respond to my e-mail,lol We want to start ASAP!!!

It just kills me since she is sooooo good outside off leash. She ignores other dogs, kids, and people. Wouldn't a fearful dog react both indoors and outdoors? I'm hoping by the end of the week I have some more answers and will keep everyone informed of the little demon beasts progress


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> she will *protect and nurture* my younger asperger son foremost.she will protect and nurture my younger asperger son foremost.
> _bolding added_


Something that is (IMO) too often overlooked is the 'nurturing' protective instincts as opposed to those grounded in suspicion & 'guarding'. Personally, I love to see this in dogs but I rarely do. One of the most appropriately protective dogs I ever knew was a 5 month old Rottweiler bitch who by default wound up in charge of 3 young children aged 3 to 4 or 5. Despite being left alone with 'em all day (& loose outside to boot!) she never pushed, snapped, snarled, hackled or overwhelmed them. However, she wouldn't allow them to play in traffic & used her body to herd them away from the street & keep them by the curb or in the yard. She was so young herself, but very calm, self possessed & assured. Rotties aren't my breed, but I adored that bitch.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well Zoe checks on my son and daughter every hour all night long and has a meltdown if I close their doors, Sleeps between their rooms and mine never going downstairs at night, follows them everywhere outside, lays on my son licking when he has a tantrum, watches them when they bathe even though I'm right there, and pretty much is with both my kids at all times unless she is crated. While she is watchful with my daughter she goes after people near my son and we think guards the stairs because it leads to their rooms. Peaceful Paws has still not got back to me


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

IF they haven't gotten back with you, follow up with them. They might just be overwhelmed following the holidays or have misplaced your contact info.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I just spoke with Peaceable Paws though Pat does not do in homes in my area due to distance However, they were amazing at recommending trainers that have graduated from their school and I think I may have found one willing to come to my area. I have just sent Hedda Garland an e-mail about my beast and hopefully she is willing and able to help me in our home


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I would have no problem with anyone that Pat Miller recommends. Good luck!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well I will let you guys know how it goes if this lady is willing to trek into the city for us She comes highly recommended, has shepherds, kids, and is a school teacher so hopefully she will be an asset


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

I could be totally wrong here but do you think when your son went to pet Zoe it almost reinforced her behavior? You said right after Zoe started getting protective your son tried to calm her down by petting her. I'm wondering if when he did that Zoe thought her behavior was good? Like I said I could be wrong but it just crossed my mind and made me curious.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

No he didn't pet her before she went after him though I agree petting an agitated dog is reinforcing their agitation. I think with her and Peaceable Paws agree's it's a combo of fear/low confidence and high protection drive. She doesn't seem to read people she doesn't know and therefore lashes out because she is fearful of the unknown, and overly protective. 

Basically the plan is to do a 2 hour evaluation with her where I fill out 12 PAGES (OMG) of questions about my beast, they go over them, and then we set a plan in place. At first when we have guests before they even get in the home she will be crated until we have enacted whatever the plan is. This is so she doesn't fail because we know she doesn't have the skills to succeed right now. Then once we enact the plan they will send decoy's over for meet and greets where we will use whatever skills I am going to learn to hopefully get some results.

They will tweak the plan, provide free correspondence to me, and of course have several sessions where they see if we are gaining any ground. My goal is to have a trustworthy dog in the end. She doesn't have to be outgoing, happy, tail wagging, and jumping up to give strangers kisses- just civil I assume we will be working on strengthening her confidence and somehow reducing her protective drive because right now it is on autopilot


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

And yes you are right, lol My son was petting her while she was on the couch with me before she went after my nephew. That may have something to do with it I'll have to remind the kids never to touch, pet, or verbally console her when she is barking or growling


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

Aw well she sounds like a good dog who just has a setback. I'm sure it will all work out


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Today was an awesome day everyone!! I spoke on the phone with Hedda Zoe's new trainer for over 2 hours. She was able to give me TONS of advice and a place to start which will actually not be training right away. We are going to take her to a thyroid specialist and have her thyroid test redone. Apparently it's common for vets to interpret the tests as normal even if certain numbers are too high or too low so we want a better picture to start with. Then she will be seeing a behavioral veterinarian to see if maybe some anxiety medication will tone her down enough to make training worthwhile. Hedda was honest in saying it seems we have tried lots of things she would have suggested herself and she feels like if we jumped into training now she'd be ripping me off. She also gave me an awesome cheap raw resource locally if any Marylanders are interested!!

So we will be making appointments for Zoe next week though she warned for these doctors we're looking at a 2 month wait. I am ordering a DAP plug in for the house which supposedly puts out pheromones similar to what a nursing mother gives off and can be calming though who knows it's worth a try for now. If Hedda finds Zoe too much of a challenge even after these changes are made she has a slew of other trainers she recommends for true aggression though we are hoping these are confidence issues, and she has found a few nose, agility, and advanced OB classes that are just down the street from me and take people aggressive dogs....YAY!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm glad you have options for help. I look forward to updates. Can't the vet use the previous lab from the thyroid test to have a re-eval done? May save some time?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well she was worried since we had it done when Zoe was only 7 months things may have changed anyway...she's 14 months now. I assume it can't hurt anything and since we're having Zoe spayed here next month I might as well combine the lab work all in one shot. I just ordered the DAP plug in has anyone here has experience with these? Looks a little silly to me though like I said worth a shot


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