# Alpha Roll



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

After reading a recent thread regarding dominance, it was mentioned and discussed a few times that the OP should "alpha roll" their dog.

What's the point of it? Why do people do it? What are you really trying to accomplish by doing it? Do you think it works?

I guess people are trying to establish dominance over their dog by forcefully putting them on their back, but how is that accomplishing anything? How can you force a dog to submit? Seems like a bit of a paradox when you think about it.

Take for example this youtube video. The wolf doesn't have to pin the other wolf down with his paws. He doesn't flip the other wolf over and hold him down while he squirms. The submissive wolf *voluntarily *submits to the dominant wolf. There is no force involved at all. This is true dominance and submission - not some outdated training method.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Nice video! :thumbup:


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## Joshherd (Jul 11, 2011)

We were told to do that in puppy training class... hm makes me wonder about all those hundreds of dollars now!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Joshherd said:


> We were told to do that in puppy training class... hm makes me wonder about all those hundreds of dollars now!


It's a training method that makes zero sense. There is no dominance/submission when doing it. All it does it rile up the puppy/dog more than he already is and accomplishes nothing.

Any trainer who recommends alpha rolling a puppy is not someone I'd be taking advice from.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

yes, some parts I agree with, however others I do not. 

I agree that the alpha does not always "dominate" dog/wolves by standing over them and pinning them down. In this case you are dealing with an already submissive member of the pack. In a case where you are dealing with a more dominate member, the alpha and dominate member may need to hash things out to prove that there is a reason the alpha is the alpha. This is when you see a pin style domination. 

Same thing goes in the dog world. Some dogs are just submissive and easily dominated, some take more effort, and some you must portray the alpha roll completely and show them who is boss. 

This is how a pack works as well. This example does not show the full structure of pack behavior. 

HowStuffWorks "What is a wolf pack mentality?"


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

If you are refering to the thread dominane help i re-read through it and no where in it was it mentioned for the op to actually due the alpha role. but one thing that this video doesnt show is that at some point in time the dominant wolf in it had probably pinned or forcibly made the submissive wolf to submit. that is why the wolf just submitted it knew if it didnt that it could have beeen forcibly submitted. but saying that i dont really think that the alpha roll needs to be used in the training of dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Alpha roll? Don't even MENTION it.  

I don't see where anyone told the OP in the other thread to do alpha roll her dog, I think pretty much everyone told her NOT to. It can be dangerous and is a good way to get bitten.

As I described in the other thread: a method which I HAVE used is the "chill". You teach your pup to roll onto his side using food as a lure, then keeping them on their side with praise, petting and repeating the word "chill" (or "relax" or whatever) until they relax. Tummy rubs are optional.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

1rockyracoon1 said:


> If you are refering to the thread dominane help i re-read through it and no where in it was it mentioned for the op to actually due the alpha role. but one thing that this video doesnt show is that at some point in time the dominant wolf in it had probably pinned or forcibly made the submissive wolf to submit. that is why the wolf just submitted it knew if it didnt that it could have beeen forcibly submitted. but saying that i dont really think that the alpha roll needs to be used in the training of dogs.


That's just an assumption. You have no idea if there was ever a forceful "alpha roll" by that wolf in the past or not.

I'm not going to pretend to be a wolf behavior expert, but I've never seen a wolf ever forcefully pin down another wolf to make him submit.

With regards to dog training and my experience, dominance is established through hard work by bonding, training, and leading the dog. Not by some stupid 5 second pin to the ground by the owners hand.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The way I was taught to do it is that a dog will naturally squirm and try to break free because they don't like being on their back, in a very comrimising position. Once they stop squirming/trying to break free they have accepted that you are the stronger, alpha, and will not try to challenge you. I did this to my pup when he stepped out of line and after a while they pick up on the fact that the faster they stop moving the faster they are let go. I did it when he was smaller and easier to handle. I can probably still pull one off but he's just too smart now and will stop moving, look at me, and then get let go within seconds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm not going to pretend to be a wolf behavior expert, but I've never seen a wolf ever forcefully pin down another wolf to make him submit.


I have seen dogs do it to each other.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I can guarantee that at some point if a wolf (maybe not this one) did not show immediate submission to the alpha wolf then it was forcefully pinned. Wolves are not civilized and don't give second chances, it is a dog eat dog world and whoever is on top is one major goal they strive for not only for reproduction rights but access to first dibs on food as well. 

The alpha roll is not something I recommend for all dogs. I do however use it with my Siberian Husky as they have a very similar mentality as wolves (Akitas, Malamutes, Shiba Inu, etc). I do not pin my dog to the ground but I will have him lay down and if he does not then I will push him into a lay and roll him on to his back while standing over him telling him to stay. I do not need to hold him down as he knows that he will only move when released. I ONLY do this when he tries to dominate other dogs, I am in charge, not him. For the most part he will leave it when I tell him too, but sometimes he gets a little too feisty and I have to step in and regain control. He does not play like other dogs, he is very primal I suppose would be the best word. He goes for the feet to disable his "prey" and then likes to rolls around and wrestle. MOST dogs can't handle/don't know how to play this type of play so he rarely does it with any other breed except other huskies. He tries to with my GSD but Sonar just doesn't get the rough play and can't get into it. Sonar just wants to chase or be chased. 

I did "Alpha cradle" Sonar when he was a puppy to assist in getting him to submit to me for grooming in any position. This is done by sitting on your butt with your dog in between your legs holding the pup/dog belly up sitting basically like you. He was not a fan at first and screamed for almost 10 minutes the first time objecting to the whole situation. I would tell him to quiet and wait until he was quiet. The first time was the worst and 20 seconds after he stopped his protest I said GOOD BOY! released him with OK and gave him all sorts of loving. Then I just did this often, I'd grab him whenever and cradle him after about 2 weeks of doing it almost daily the protesting quit and he would just submit to me grabbing him and holding him in the position. Now he is almost 85lbs and I can grab him and pick him up in any position without protest, it also helps during grooming when I have to do his stomach. It also showed him that I'm in charge. period.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

I have absolutely put my pup on her side (not back) when she was biting me as a little one. Didn't have a toy to re-direct and "OW!" wasn't cutting it. She was already lying down and I "rolled" her to side and said "NO!". She calmed immediately, I let her up, and play was more gentle. I don't consider that "alpha rolling" - at least not how I've seen it in some videos. 

Just to clarify, before I get blasted, I did NOT put her down from a standing position, but pushed her onto her side.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Freestep said:


> I have seen dogs do it to each other.


As play, yeah, I have too.

To establish dominance, I've never seen that between two dogs that wasn't your typical dog fight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

http://www.professorshouse.com/Pets/Dogs/Training/Articles/The-Myth-of-Alpha---Part-1/

The Myth of Alpha -Part 2 | Dog Training

Alpha Dog Training

For every link that is posted in favor of Alpha Rolling, there is an expert to against it. The study was flawed. The person who originally did the study and came up with the idea of alpha rolling now SAYS it's flawed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My alpha roll sounds more like the alpha cradle, that suzzy was talking about. But I believe it establishes the same thing. Call it dominance or just the ability to position your dog whichever way you want it worked.

As a training technique, we all know that for every technique there will be an expert against it, so its really up to the owner if they want to use it or not. In my experience (one and only dog I have ever owned) it has not ruined him in one bit and he is absolutely fine with every other human and dog that he has ever met. He is more submissive, but that is probably partially his age and partially his "peace-keeping" mentality.

I've seen puppies do an "alpha roll" often to establish dominance, some call it play since it doesn't really hurt the other dog, but I believe phycologically they are establishing the pecking order.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> To establish dominance, I've never seen that between two dogs that wasn't your typical dog fight.


I have.

Back when I was in college, I used to walk everywhere with my dogs, and it seemed there were always loose dogs in the neighborhood. Most were friendly, benign dogs whose owners were hippies. One of these dogs was "Bear", a huge GSD/Newf mix. He wasn't aggressive, but clearly was alpha of the neighborhood. 

One time he followed my dog and I while we were walking, and we came upon another dog. The other dog was posturing, and I saw Bear, without hesitation, take that dog and pin him to the ground on his back. A moment of struggle, and then the other dog started licking Bear's face. Bear let him up and everything was cool, then both dogs followed us on our walk just as happy as could be.

That's just one example.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm not sure if it's the same thing, but mine sometimes rolls to his side when I approach him. My cats do it too. I can also make him do it on command.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I like egg rolls, alpha rolls not so much. I think the dog knows I'm not another dog. Personally, I believe too many trainers today put to much emphasis on the "alpha" role. 

DFrost


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

When we only had one dog I think I bought into the concept more, but having two dogs we get to see how they really communicate and it's not with alpha rolls. I think anyone that owns two adult dogs can sit back and watch how dogs communicate, and 9 out of 10 times it's with their body posture and eye contact (or lack of), not by rolling each other to prove dominance.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I have.
> 
> Back when I was in college, I used to walk everywhere with my dogs, and it seemed there were always loose dogs in the neighborhood. Most were friendly, benign dogs whose owners were hippies. One of these dogs was "Bear", a huge GSD/Newf mix. He wasn't aggressive, but clearly was alpha of the neighborhood.
> 
> ...



Thats a good example. Not all dogs who are alpha dogs get into a "dog fight" to establish dominance. IF they establish the dominance with a less dominant dog, you are most likely to see what happened in this example. The dog began to lick the alpha (a sign of submission) and the alpha let him up. 

IF you have two alpha dogs who are fighting for dominance then you are most likely to see a dog scrap I will call it, _stable _dogs who are looking to establish the alpha roll are not looking to hurt the other dog only establish their rank in the pack. 


I was at a dog park yesterday (20 acres on the ocean) and we were walking along the beach and along came another dog. Young, 2 year old husky/mutt mix and somewhat dominant. He attempted to hump Onyx who I consider to be dominant to other dogs and they "scrapped" for a couple seconds and both myself and the other owners recalled and they quit. I called Onyx over and put him in a down stay (no alpha rolling) and made him stay there until he was calmer. Let him go a couple minutes later and everyone was fine. 

You have to think of it like this.....to humanize it a little..

If you were in a bar and a guy/girl came over to the bar where you were sitting and tried to push you off the stool to take it, what would you do?

-Alphas would scrap and defend their spot at the bar.
-Omegas would walk away and cuss the person out under their breath. 
-Everyone in between would maybe do a little of both, try and put up a fight but eventually give up and walk away.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

DFrost said:


> I like egg rolls, alpha rolls not so much. I think the dog knows I'm not another dog. Personally, I believe too many trainers today put to much emphasis on the "alpha" role.
> 
> DFrost


Agreed except for the egg roll part. I'm not a fan of those kind of rolls either.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I like this article:
Should I alpha roll my dog? Positive Police Dogs

Copied and pasted:
_
If you can successfully alpha roll your dog then it serves no purpose. If you’ve got the kind of dog that you think would benefit from being rolled then you will do nothing but create distrust and fear in your dog.

People often feel that the alpha roll is the appropriate course of action after their dog has growled, snapped or made some other gesture that necessitates the dog being put in his place.

The dog must have perceived some form of threat, hence the warning. If you go in with physical chastisement and fighting you are merely confirming his suspicions. The ensuing fight will go one of two not very successful ways.

You will either win and your dog will give up, full of resentment, distrust and fear or he will fight back and you will get hurt.

Both scenarios result in a dog and handler with trust issues and trust as we should all know is the basis of all healthy relationships.

Better to heed the warning and back away. Find a distraction to defuse the situation and when you can, safely put the dog away. THen analyse what went on.

Use your superior human brain to work out what could have happened to make your dog feel threatened by your presence or something you did. Then work out a way to stop your dog feeling like that.

The issues are quite often around valued objects or locations and in my experience, rare in dogs whose handlers attempt to primarily use positive reinforcement.

Anger breeds anger and fear breeds fear. We reap what we sow and what goes around comes around. We live what we learn. I’m sure there are other sayings that are appropriate but my brain has gone numb._


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I like that too, Leah! Thanks for sharing.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have found that if the alpha roll "worked", it wasn't necessary in the first place.

If you have a strong, rank dog who is aggressive toward you, well, I want to watch that alpha roll and then observe the positive result in the relationship. That will be entertaining!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If you can alpha roll a dog then it means it's a submissive type that doesn't need that alpha rolling in the first place. Puppies are submissive, and to alpha rolling them is bulling. 

If the dog is strong and confident than your alpha rolling would be really entertaining to watch, just like Samba said above  Have you ever encountered a dog that pushes back as hard as you push him, and doesn't take ****? If you haven't than you should, because he also gives back ten times more in terms of partnership, love, respect, loyalty than you can even offer him. With such dog you'll forget about alpha rolling like it was a bad dream.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> _The dog must have perceived some form of threat, hence the warning. If you go in with physical chastisement and fighting you are merely confirming his suspicions. The ensuing fight will go one of two not very successful ways.
> 
> __
> __You will either win and your dog will give up, full of resentment, distrust and fear or he will fight back and you will get hurt.
> ...


I won't defend the alpha roll. I didn't even know what one was until a couple of years ago.

Goodkarma. 

Could just be you are being challenged. Distraction, and (when you can) safely put the dog away are not going to go far in the dog knowing who is in charge.

If we aren't in charge then our dogs are. I have been in many a household where the dogs are in charge and they can be truly chaotic.

I love my dog and I wish I could just sit down and reason with him but it's not the way it works.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Hunter Jack said:


> I won't defend the alpha roll. I didn't even know what one was until a couple of years ago.
> 
> Goodkarma.
> 
> ...


Just so you know, I didn't write that. That was copied and pasted from the link I provided.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

alpha rolling, dog being dominant;
with training and socializing you
don't have to worry about any of this stuff.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Good Karma. I apologize.

doggiedad. I agree.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are many ways to get to a relationship that does not require an alpha roll.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Great thread.... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

martemchik said:


> My alpha roll sounds more like the alpha cradle, that suzzy was talking about. But I believe it establishes the same thing. Call it dominance or just the ability to position your dog whichever way you want it worked.


We did an exercise in puppy class where you cradle the pup in your lap and gently restrain them until they stop struggling to get free. In addition, we would touch ears, belly, tail, muzzle, feet, etc., while feeding treats. This had absolutely nothing to do with establishing dominance, it was a handling desensitization exercise to teach puppies to accept the kinds of handling and restraint that would be used for grooming and veterinary procedures.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thank you for posting that link Brandi, I was going to go look for it!

Here are two more:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/89990-how-do-you-define-being-alpha.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html

Lot's of good stuff on these previous threads - hopefully people will go read them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My post from the "better pack leader" thread, so I don't have to type out my thoughts all over again: 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I just read a great article by Pat Miller in the Whole Dog Journal called "Biscuits, Not Rolls". It's about using alpha rolls, and other forms of physical dominance with your dog and why it's not a good idea. The article is from July 06, I'm a little behind in my reading, lol! I can't paste it here without violating copyright laws, but there are a couple of things I'd like to paraphrase and add to this thread.
> 
> She writes that Ethology studies from the 70's and 80's suggest that canine social structure holds together because _appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher ranking members demand subservience_. Successful leaders calmly control the good stuff, the basis for modern positive training as an appropriate and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed species social group.
> 
> ...


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## 1rockyracoon1 (May 27, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's just an assumption. You have no idea if there was ever a forceful "alpha roll" by that wolf in the past or not.
> 
> I'm not going to pretend to be a wolf behavior expert, but I've never seen a wolf ever forcefully pin down another wolf to make him submit.
> 
> With regards to dog training and my experience, dominance is established through hard work by bonding, training, and leading the dog. Not by some stupid 5 second pin to the ground by the owners hand.


 
While i am not an expert either i also know that it most likely isnt an assumption because i have had many talks with a friend that is a client for the company that i used to work for and he has had 4 wolves through out his life and we have had the alpha role dicussion (about wolves) and he is against as am i. 
one of the funniest things but is completely true that he has said is a wolf is never a pet the wolf may respect you but they always lokk at you as their inferior they. if a dog has a problem it is having trouble solving it will look for a human to help. while a wolf will not look at a human or anything for help they keep trying until they eventually succeed (if you want to know that i was informed of by my friend and i have seen a documentary on it as well)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Thank you for reposting the Debbie. Some good stuff, IMO.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The only Alpha roll here is....my husband wrapped up in a snugglie....however, when I'm pissed off at him.....then...he's more like a "pig in a blanket". LOL:wild:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sagelfn said:


> Great thread.... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html


Perfect explanation of the "alpha roll" by someone who obviously knows what they're talking about. Thanks for posting this thread... it's the first time I've seen it. 

Very good read for anyone who is pro-alpha roll. Might make you think twice.


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## Redhawk (Jul 8, 2011)

I do believe dominance is important for our relationship with dogs, but I don't believe humans need to use physical corrections (like alpha role) to work with that "dominance".

To me dominance is simply who controls the environment the most. If you are a human you can open/close doors, put a dog in or out a crate and of course control the food. Just by being human you naturally hold an EXTREMELY dominant position because if you don't feed it the dog will simply die. Just use the food and door system to reward the behavior you want and you are all set, no need to be physical about it or worry about being dominant. 

I taught my pup to wait for me to tell her whether she could get out the door or not when it opens simply by closing it when she rushed towards it. She learned I always won that battle and so decided to defer to me when the situation arose.

If I were living in a wild pack of wolves outside I would expect to have to use physical interactions to get what I wanted, otherwise I would be toast. However you have to be able to win the battles you start if you want to make the decisions, and if you use physical corrections you have to be prepared to follow them all the way through all the time. Personally, I don't like my chances of going 1-1 in a fight with an adult GSD, so I'll put my bet on the door and food system, where I am most likely to win, no matter what age they are. And much less stress on myself.

RH

PS Some people talk about positive reinforcement using treats as if it were different from dominance. In my opinion, its just another way of reminding the pup you are dominant (that you control the food). Although it seems a "nicer" way of going about it. Think about it - if you were hungry and someone only gave you the treats/food when you did exactly what they wanted, you wouldn't think it was such a positive thing after all. Although, I think it is the nicest way to train a dog.


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## Two (Jul 18, 2011)

I wouldn't really call this a video, but nice photos. Maybe Photobucket would be good =]?


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I alpha roll. Rub my dog's belly and he rolls over.  



Good_Karma said:


> I like this article:
> Should I alpha roll my dog? Positive Police Dogs
> 
> Copied and pasted:
> ...


Like this article.:thumbup:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

In wolf packs, the "alpha" is not the biggest, meanest wolf who got there by forcing all the other wolves to be submissive. In a natural wolf pack the alphas are generally the alphas because they are the _parents_ of the rest of the pack. In general the other wolves voluntarily submit to them, they don't forcefully flip other wolves over. Forcibly flipping another wolf on their back is generally an aggressive move and I don't understand why people ever thought that was a good thing to do to a dog.
Even one of the primary wolf researchers who previously described alpha theory has admitted that this is incorrect.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

On the other hand, if my dog growls at me when I try to do something, i.e. when i try to take something away from him or get him to move off the bed; and i back away from him then, haven't I just taught him that he can control MY behavior? 

Wouldn't a reasonably smart dog (GSD!) quickly learn that if he doesn't want to do something I want him to do, then growl and he doesn't have to?

That is how it seems to me. Not saying one should attempt an "Alpha roll", but it seems like something needs to happen to convince the dog who is really calling the shots.

If he growls when I reach to take away a toy and I offer a real bone, what would anyone recommend I do if he decides that he likes the toy more than the bone; wait for him to change his doggy mind or look for something (what?) even better. You know - the often touted "Higher Value" treat?

I know what I would do! 

One thought to consider - never have a dog that you are afraid of!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So if your dog growled at you, you automatically alpha roll him? No verbal correction?
I would just take what is mine(it is all mine!) away from my dog, and ignore the posturing and growls.
I would not back away, and if the dog is on the bed when growling then no more bed time for him. But I don't see a need to pin him down to show my 'dominance'.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> So *if your dog growled at you, you automatically alpha roll him?* No verbal correction?
> I would just take what is mine(it is all mine!) away from my dog, and ignore the posturing and growls.
> I would not back away, and if the dog is on the bed when growling then no more bed time for him. But I don't see a need to pin him down to show my 'dominance'.


Onyx - if your above message was aimed at me (seems like it but i could just be paranoid, of course);

Then I must very politely suggest that you actually read my post before commenting. Here is part of what I wrote in my post - *"Not saying one should attempt an "Alpha roll"...".*

*BTW, a little warning; with many dogs, if you ignore the growls you may just end up with a bite/snap. Then what do you do - ignore the bite as well? Tell him "Bad Dog" before you leave for the emergency room?*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you correct the dog for warning with a growl, you may get bit without a warning. 
And yes I did read your post, you will alpha roll a dog for growling...._ *"I know what I would do"*_
or did I read that wrong?

I do think you are a bit paranoid, from other posts you've written. Have you been bitten often?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> If you correct the dog for warning with a growl, you may get bit without a warning.
> And yes I did read your post, you will alpha roll a dog for growling...._ *"I know what I would do"*_
> or did I read that wrong?
> 
> I do think you are a bit paranoid, from other posts you've written. Have you been bitten often?


So then you *assumed* something - very bad to do that. I hope that you will learn not to assume so easily.

All I meant, by the way, (just so you are more aware), by the little piece that you quoted, was that I would correct the dog's behavior, preferably with a leash or tab correction.

I have never bitten by any dog that I have owned! How about you? 

Been bitten a lot by your own dogs? - sounds like maybe that might be it. Not to worry about me getting bit - a lot of getting bit by any dog is your body language and "presence" or lack of it. Dogs seem to be able to discern what they can get away with a lot of people and often act accordingly.

You do sound a little paranoid/defensive yourself. Is it that I mentioned correcting a dog instead of "reasoning" with him to alter his behavior?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> .... Not saying one should attempt an "Alpha roll", but it seems like something needs to happen to convince the dog who is really calling the shots...


What do you think that is if not an alpha roll?

Have you read these yet?



sagelfn said:


> Great thread.... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html





Good_Karma said:


> I like this article:
> Should I alpha roll my dog? Positive Police Dogs
> 
> Copied and pasted:
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> That is how it seems to me. Not saying one should attempt an "Alpha roll", but it seems like something needs to happen to convince the dog who is really calling the shots.


This sounds like* you* would alpha roll *your* dog, even if you aren't suggesting others do so~ you never ever mentioned you'd correct with a leash or tab. I give my dogs corrections when needed and redirect them when the situation demands it. I have no problem with corrections as long as they are fair and timed right.
And nope, I've never been bitten by my dogs...not paranoid either. They do growl however, but not at me, usually at each other. Growls are a way of communication along with body language. I'm not intimidated by it whatsoever.
I will say this, I did alpha roll Onyx when she was about 7 months. She had been spayed 3 weeks earlier, hormones were probably messing her up emotionally. She was going after a 7 or 8 year old boy(herding or what, I didn't analyze it, just reacted) and I stopped it with a pin down. 
EVER since then, she has reacted to small kids, so I feel that the reaction I made to her reaction(fear based) ingrained a hatred/fear of smaller children. I didn't know better and regret it. It was the only time I ever did it and after seeing the lack of results(backfiring) I knew then that it was a no-no.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> What do you think that is if not an alpha roll?
> Have you read these yet?


Sagelfn,

Are you aware that not every correction involves an "Alpha Roll"? 

In fact I haven't "Alpha rolled a dog in a really long time - fact I can't remember ever having to do it although i did once grab a fiesty 9 mo German GSD male once by the scruff of the neck when he growled at me when i took a real bone away from him - he seemed to have learned his lesson and never growled at me ever again. BTW, he also excelled on the ScH field so i guess that i didn't destroy his spirit either.

Sometimes I correct my dog with an "AAAHHH" and it works. Sometimes it takes a little motion with my leash.

You don't consider these to be too harsh, and the same as an "Alpha Roll", do you?

So far it doesn't seem to have broken him and he seems to still love me (and also listens to me).


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Sagelfn,
> 
> Are you aware that not every correction involves an "Alpha Roll"?


Of course. I also read your post thinking you were talking about alpha rolls since that is the topic of thread and you didn't mention any other type of correction. My mistake.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

codmaster said:


> If he growls when I reach to take away a toy and I offer a real bone, what would anyone recommend I do if he decides that he likes the toy more than the bone; wait for him to change his doggy mind or look for something (what?) even better. You know - the often touted "Higher Value" treat?
> 
> I know what I would do!


I would definitely not reprimand the growling, that is for sure! A growl is a warning, and if you teach the dog that growling is bad they may learn to skip the growl and go straight to a bite. Not something I want for sure. 

What I would recommend is first tell everyone in the house NOT to bother the dog when he is eating, second pick up all toys/bones and control when and where the dog can have them, and third start working on the issue in a controlled manner. Not by correcting the growling. Giving a physical correction and/or taking the toy or bone away when the dog growls is not going to help fix resource guarding, in fact it may make it worse because the dog can feel that s/he needs to protect the item even more.


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