# Czech work line - energy level



## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

How high of an energy level can I come to expect from my puppy? He's 3.5 months old now (and about 42 pounds). I hear they have higher energy levels than other work lines.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

You'll need to provide a pedigree for anyone to be able to tell you that, and even then it's relatively subjective. There are some very experienced folks here that could decipher a pedigree for you though.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

How high is his energy level now? I got my guy over a month ago, and on Friday (for the first time EVER) saw him sleep for a couple minutes. Before and since, I've never even seen him close his eyes.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Both of mine are Czech. Leyna has a higher drive than Hades and just recently after she turned 2 did she start actually calming and coming into her own. She is extremely pigheaded and independent and would like to do things she wanted to do. This is changing quite a bit as she matures and she is trying hard to please me now. She is also finally sleeping at night. Before she would sleep an hour or two but that was it.

Hades on the other hand is much more calm and settles much faster. He will be 6 months on the 9th. He wants to please constantly. He does get the overexcited puppy thing going at times, but for the most part he is very biddable to what I ask. He is food and toy driven, but will work just as much for a "good boy" and pat. He loves his sleep and does not like to be awakened.

It all depends on the lines and the pedigree and what it brings forward. That being said, Hades and Grim (Jag's pup) are first cousins and have almost identical pedigrees, but are completely different in actions.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

pkhoury said:


> How high of an energy level can I come to expect from my puppy? He's 3.5 months old now (and about 42 pounds). I hear they have higher energy levels than other work lines.


My Zefra is 18 months old and is only 1/2 Czech in her pedigree but temperament, drive, thresholds, personality... all Czech.  I have been told my some very well known Czech breeders who have watched her work (we do schH and agility) that in her work, you wouldn't know she wasn't fully Czech... lol.

Zefra is a HIGH HIGH energy, HIGH drive female with low-medium thresholds. She also has superb nerve and as she matures, she is able to cap (just a tad!) that with consistent training/corrections/redirection.

One thing to note is that this dog is EXTREMELY biddable and has IMPECCABLE focus - always has. She is also very versitile and can do anything I ask - and does it well! She is pretty much my dream dog.

She does have her issues, she is pretty sharp and if in protection, can be handler hard as well. She is also super friendly to a fault...lol. She acts more like a golden with people on the street and especially kids (I like it though). But she is a jumper and it's not something I have been able to correct (trust me, we have tried). 

She is also SUPER quick and extremely agile. 

She is worked everyday in some capacity, but we regularly train (Schutzhund) twice per week. This helps, but she is still unable to really settle in the house. Her 'settle' is laying with a ball chewing, or grabbing an antler or something), she has to be "doing something" while "relaxing".

I personally LOVE this about them, and am looking for my next working partner to be a full Czech dog. I just seem to be drawn to that line. 

I don't expect Zefra to really change in regards to her energy or working ability until she physically can't do those things anymore.. lol.

This is my 1/2 Czech female:


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## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

jaggirl47 said:


> Both of mine are Czech. Leyna has a higher drive than Hades and just recently after she turned 2 did she start actually calming and coming into her own. She is extremely pigheaded and independent and would like to do things she wanted to do. This is changing quite a bit as she matures and she is trying hard to please me now. She is also finally sleeping at night. Before she would sleep an hour or two but that was it.


That sounds like Max. He is bonding with me, but he seems to want to do his own thing often times. We're going to start training this Saturday at a K9 Police academy (that has really cheap training costs and is highly recommended by friends), so I'm hoping that will mold him better.


> Hades on the other hand is much more calm and settles much faster. He will be 6 months on the 9th. He wants to please constantly. He does get the overexcited puppy thing going at times, but for the most part he is very biddable to what I ask. He is food and toy driven, but will work just as much for a "good boy" and pat. He loves his sleep and does not like to be awakened.
> 
> It all depends on the lines and the pedigree and what it brings forward. That being said, Hades and Grim (Jag's pup) are first cousins and have almost identical pedigrees, but are completely different in actions.


I wish I knew an exact pedigree, but I think that's difficult in my case.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

interesting stuff, i have been led to believe that the high energy dogs are the wgwl which has had more selection for sport. the east stuff i thought was selected for more working roles and had more defence less prey based???

on other forums some competitors write the east stuff off as "lacking work ethic" for high level sport???

the phrase "mallinisation" of the gsd enetred the vocabulary due to the demand from sport to have stupid levels of prey bred into the mainly the west dogs.

now i'm confused???

will say some breedrs i respect have the postion that east/west/czech/ddr etc are just words now due to all the outcrossing occurring for generations? claims it is just pure marketting in the majority of cases???

i KNOW that stereotyping lines is not very fruitful at best, considering the educated buyers/breeders look for the variation in a single litter eg from same litter you will get pet/ring type/sch type etc/service type....to varying degrees, so to speak of a whole line as......????


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

There are still pure Czech line dogs out there. There aren't many breeders that have them in the US, but there are some. My dog's pedigree isn't just 'marketing'. He's pure Czech lines, as are some others here. The current thinking seems to be mixing Czech with WGWL. However, I'd not say that a Czech dog isn't a utility dog. Maybe more serious in some cases, but still able to do anything out there.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Too much variance--you'll know more about your puppy's adult energy and activity levels by looking at his current energy and activity levels. As a puppy, he will go for shorter periods, have less focus, and less stamina--but other elements usually remain very similar.

And remember that energy and activity and drive are not the same, nor are they always correlated.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Too much variance--you'll know more about your puppy's adult energy and activity levels by looking at his current energy and activity levels. As a puppy, he will go for shorter periods, have less focus, and less stamina--but other elements usually remain very similar.
> 
> And remember that *energy and activity and drive are not the same*, nor are they always correlated.


 
an area i am starting to self realise having different breeds together - could you please expand on this line of thought please, sorry op if off topic.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Zefra is a HIGH HIGH energy, HIGH drive female with low-medium thresholds. She also has superb nerve and as she matures, she is able to cap (just a tad!) that with consistent training/corrections/redirection.
> 
> One thing to note is that this dog is EXTREMELY biddable and has IMPECCABLE focus - always has. She is also very versitile and can do anything I ask - and does it well! She is pretty much my dream dog.
> 
> ...


This describes the Czech/WGWL female I used to have, except that she did not have the focus and the biddability. She was pretty pig-headed.  She had strong nerves, low-medium thresholds, very friendly with people and other dogs, super super energy, agility and athleticism, could jump like she was spring-loaded. She was a really neat dog in some ways, but could not settle in the house, and was obsessed with my cats in an unhealthy way. 

She wasn't a good fit for my household, so I placed her with a SchH enthusiast with four other dogs and no cats.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually, the experience I have made with Czech dogs is that they took longer to mature than west german working lines and they didn't have that crazy high prey drive but were much more serious and had more defense than anything else. They also were more reactive and had a much lower threshhold and only when they matured they became calmer.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Mrs. K do you think their slow maturing is part because you don't see the high prey drive so there isn't a lot to "see" in the dog when it's young (so next to a WGWL appears immature), and also part because defense takes a while to develop in any dog? Curious to hear your thoughts

I have found some Czech dogs lack that high prey. Do you think this is a bad thing? Or is this a personal preference?

I have a Czech female with Grim, Cordon, & Tom up close and she has pretty high prey. I didn't get her until she was about 17 months and had to fix some terrible mistakes her previous handlers made on her. But her prey is very high and she produces that. She also has medium to high thresholds. Really nothing phases this dog. Gunfire, a construction loader dropping a bucket right next to her, among many other very loud and even ground shaking things and it doesn't phase her. I will say her son (1/2 Czech / 1/2 WGWL) is a little more reactive and seems to have lower thresholds. But he is only 1/2 so part of that could be from his sire.

Also I wanted clarification because everyone seems to have different descriptions. When you say "reactive" do you mean "sharp" and quick to growl at something that appears threatening. Or do you mean reactive as in handler sensitive (quick to respond to handlers needs and commands, flashy obedience etc.)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My male is a WG/Czechmix and he has a higher threshold, decent prey drive and an off switch. He isn't a super high drive sport dog, carries some suspicion, not dog aggressive. He is biddable and a bit handler sensitive, depending on what is asked of him! Slow to mature.
As far as energy level, I don't crate him during the day(inside loose), he gets to run with my other dogs when I'm home and does get his energy out. IF I did crate him daily and limited his time with my other dogs, I don't think he would be as balanced as he is.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Activity - how much the dog likes to be moving, how much the dog naturally moves around. Even when nothing is going on, these dogs will be moving. They might patrol the yard or the house or just like to move. Think of a human who is always tapping a pencil or foot or pacing.

Energy - how long the dog can go, how much stamina and oomph to their actions. So, a very energetic dog might be completely calm in the house or in the kennel, but when something is going on, they will go and go and go. This type of dog needs a regular "burn" of energy to stay sane, but they don't necessarily pace or fiddle or patrol or move around just to be moving.

Drive (high drive/low drive): A dog that needs to do something in response to an outside influence. A high activity and high drive dog might discover that he can play hockey with his food bowl or water bucket and will toss it into the air and bat it around and start a game going that meets his need to be active and to use drive. 

A high activity dog with low drive is just sort of pointlessly in motion. A high drive dog is more likely to find some way to channel that activity--so they will be active with a purpose or target for their activity--this might be the dog that decides to dig up the sprinkler system in the yard. They make up games to serve as outlets for their need to be active and their need to be express their drive.

A dog with lots of energy and lots of drive but maybe not so much activity is not as common. I have a girl like this--if she's loose in the house, she watches the cats. She's incredibly calm and quiet and intense. But if she sees a cat out of place, she immediately goes into motion, almost explosively. I know from the training and playing with her how this applies in obedience and herding. She is intensely focused and has the energy to stay "on" for long periods of time, she doesn't have to take action just because she is in drive--but she can be explosive when she does take action.

A low drive, low activity but moderate+ energy dog might be a total couch potato in the house. He may be hard to motivate for training but you want to go for a 10 mile hike--that dog will be right with you

There is, obviously, some correlation between high drive and high energy and high activity--you're not going to have many high activity and high drive dogs who are low energy--so possibly energy is a result of drive + health + conditioning + something innate. And most active dogs are going to be pretty high energy, but you can have an active dog who just is sort of a flash of activity without any staying power--not common in GSDs, I think.



> I have a Czech female with Grim, Cordon, & Tom up close and she has pretty high prey.


I understand that Grim brings a lot of prey. Cordon and Tom are going to bring some prey, but more seriousness.



> When you say "reactive" do you mean "sharp" and quick to growl at something that appears threatening. Or do you mean reactive as in handler sensitive (quick to respond to handlers needs and commands, flashy obedience etc.)


I think of reactivity as how quick a dog triggers or responds to something. Thinking of an actual trigger on a gun--how much pressure does it take to make that gun go off. If only a little bit of input from your finger, that is very low threshold and very reactive. If it takes a lot of finger pressure to pull the trigger, that is very high threshold, very low reactivity. Reactivity is widespread and not just in one area of life (not just prey or defense) -- so, how fast does your puppy stimulate and decide to chase your pants cuff, a rag on a string, a grasshopper in the yard? How fast does your dog trigger to a cat beginning to walk through the room? What does it take for your dog in the car to begin to bark at that passerby?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Activity - how much the dog likes to be moving, how much the dog naturally moves around. Even when nothing is going on, these dogs will be moving. They might patrol the yard or the house or just like to move. Think of a human who is always tapping a pencil or foot or pacing.
> 
> Energy - how long the dog can go, how much stamina and oomph to their actions. So, a very energetic dog might be completely calm in the house or in the kennel, but when something is going on, they will go and go and go. This type of dog needs a regular "burn" of energy to stay sane, but they don't necessarily pace or fiddle or patrol or move around just to be moving.
> 
> ...


Wonderful explanation Christine thank you so much for your input!


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh and I would agree then. Czech dogs (at least my dogs and the ones I meet) are more reactive. 
Although mine all settle nicely and calm down as soon as I bring them inside or load them on a crate.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Freestep said:


> This describes the Czech/WGWL female I used to have, except that she did not have the focus and the biddability. She was pretty pig-headed.  She had strong nerves, low-medium thresholds, very friendly with people and other dogs, super super energy, agility and athleticism, could jump like she was spring-loaded. She was a really neat dog in some ways, but could not settle in the house, and was obsessed with my cats in an unhealthy way.
> 
> She wasn't a good fit for my household, so I placed her with a SchH enthusiast with four other dogs and no cats.


Yeah, I can't see Zefra just being a pet in some medium active pet home. I mean, don't get me wrong, she is a great dog and if the family had a understanding of her needs, it may work - but she definitely needs to be worked in some capacity.

For example, only doing walks at night because of my work schedule and the dog who has NEVER destroyed anything in my house, chewed my couch and my comforter set...... she needs more than playing ball and nightly walks.. lol. 

She is a fun dog but not a dog for everyone.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Actually, the experience I have made with Czech dogs is that they took longer to mature than west german working lines and they didn't have that crazy high prey drive but were much more serious and had more defense than anything else. They also were more reactive and had a much lower threshhold and only when they matured they became calmer.


I am finding this to be true with Zefra.

She jumps (always has) into defense first, but she unlike some Czech dogs I have met, also has good prey drive, so she is able to work out of both. She can switch very nicely. Don't piss her off though because it will be hard to bring her back into prey once you REALLY made her mad... LMAO!

She is 18 months old and is just now showing signs of maturity.. not every often, but I can see stints of it now.. lol.

She is reactive, and what I mean by this is that she reacts very quickly to things - good and bad. She is not dog reactive, or people reactive AT ALL. But if she sees a rabbit or squirrel, BOOM! She is at the end of the leash. Helper with a sleeve - BOOM barking and doing her thing, it is just now that we have been able to put some obedience on her during protection because she was just jumping into drive too strongly. She can now actually work with the decoy present. Low threshold but like I said, as she matures I noticed a slight difference.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Activity - how much the dog likes to be moving, how much the dog naturally moves around. Even when nothing is going on, these dogs will be moving. They might patrol the yard or the house or just like to move. Think of a human who is always tapping a pencil or foot or pacing.
> 
> Energy - how long the dog can go, how much stamina and oomph to their actions. So, a very energetic dog might be completely calm in the house or in the kennel, but when something is going on, they will go and go and go. This type of dog needs a regular "burn" of energy to stay sane, but they don't necessarily pace or fiddle or patrol or move around just to be moving.
> 
> ...


Very, very interesting. Very easy to read and understand. Thanks for posting this.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks BlackthornGSD i actually got that, the nergy but i kind of didn't but energy is the most misused word in the english language so i'm not going to try and get that bit.

so from yr definitions and because this is a gsd board i would think that the ideal gsd in its original form would be a high activity, low prey drive, high reactive dog.

this is the original gsd prior to venue specialisation??

in yr definition then a reactive dogs and a sharp dog is the same thing??

reactive = thin nerves???


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

No, I don't think a reactive dog and a sharp dog are the same thing. A sharp dog is going to be reactive, but a dog can be reactive without being sharp.

I don't think the original GSDs were low prey drive. And I don't know how high in activity they were, either. That probably varied quite a bit among the founding types.

I also think that the "ideal" balance is going to vary for each person and purpose. They will still all be GSDs, but not all exactly the same. 

I think a dog can be reactive and not have bad nerves. But they do tend to go together to some degree.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

x11 said:


> so from yr definitions and because this is a gsd board i would think that the ideal gsd in its original form would be a high activity, low prey drive, high reactive dog.


I don't think I'd call that ideal.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

blackhorn can u say the diff between sharp and reactive? I always consider them the same?

And do you consider most sharp dogs to be kinda nervous? i always consider it kinda shy sharp. But not always there are sharp dogs that are not nervous but i thought most sharp gsds were just thin nerved and unstable.

There are some presa and LGD i know that are sharp but i feel deep down that they are nervous deep down there. But i know there are sharp mal or gsd that are not scared at all its just who they are. They are just not social dogs you can take to a family get together.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I had a rescue foster for a while who I thought was a bit sharp--but not reactive. If she was pushed or felt cornered or likely to be injured, she would bite. But if I walked around a corner and saw a dog, she didn't go into aggression barking. But if some dog had tried to intimidate her and put her on her back (she was little), she would respond with teeth. Biting was in her repertoire of responses. To me, a sharp dog is one who tends to react quickly and with actual aggression (not just vocalization) as a likely response.

A reactive dog, IMO, is one who is responding without thinking, to an outside stimulus. This isn't always an aggressive response and it is likely to be vocal, perhaps aggressive barking--but it isn't always barking. Say I'm at Petsmart and walk around a corner and there's a beagle, a reactive dog might respond with scary sounding barking without really processing that the beagle isn't representing any real threat that would make such a reaction reasonable. But usually, these dogs are all sound without any real intention to use their teeth.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i see so a sharp dog as a pp dog would be a big no no 


not something you can take in public wthout a muzzle at least


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

eh? around the home you want a very sharp dog for ppd??

apparently sharp is only undesirable in the states (generally speaking) - what i gather in euro it's generally considered a good thing??


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

my dog can be sharp around her fence/home but thats also territorial aggression I think also. 

But in public shes calm and good and always stable. 

You cant have a pp dog that is nasty in public cause you need it to go everywhere with you and be ur protector and then turn on in a second when you need it. It has to go everywhere with you and not take out people that go beside you. YOu could take a dog with a muzzle i guess but that would suck. It would be way better to take a social dog that you can take everywhere that has it in them to be a monster when you turn it on. That way you can it to public gatherings, hikes, shopping, vacations, anywhere you want and not have to worry about it taking someone out. 

Around the house when ur asleep its a whole nother story. OR when your dog is in the yard.

IF your life was in serious constant danger and no one is suppose to go around you at all then i would want a sharp dangerous dog and just muzzle it all the time. But again how is that going to work you gonna take off the muzzle when someone starts killing you? Even eva mendas dog isnt muzzled when her starker started giving her rape and death threats. Shes able to take her dog shopping down the strip.










if she had a sharp dog she would not be able to take it shopping like that. No one is going to get near her with that dog lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

using this lexicon, my two females are extreme high drive, one is high activity, the other extreme high activity, both lower energy than my male, who is high drive and low activity. he moves when there is a reason to move. Katya moves if I do, Aska doesn't stop moving. Jager has vastly higher stamina than either of the other two, but they are both "quicker". I believe they have a higher makeup of fast twitch muscle tissue where as he has higher slow twitch. one provides lightning fast movement, the other slower movement but with extended duration of performance before exhaustion.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

pets4life said:


> my dog can be sharp around her fence/home but thats also territorial aggression I think also.
> 
> But in public shes calm and good and always stable.
> 
> ...


Believe me, you can teach a muzzled dog to hurt someone just as bad as an unmuzzled one. A well seasoned muzzle dog can snap ribs with ease. My helper won't work Katya anymore in muzzlework without at muzzle vest (ordered) as she is getting too violent and causing too much pain at this point


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

that women in the pic should just ask me to protect her.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

hunter will she grab wrists? Has she done a lot of jacket work? wow she sounds like a monster lol


x11 shes eva mendes a big time hollywood actress in america shes not just any woman lol I can't belive u didnt know who she is. She doesn't even exercise or work or do anything with her pp dog i bet other than bond or lil things. Shes probably too busy acting shopping and being pretty. She must have hired people to take care of and do all that stuff for her dog.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

don't care who she is - she looks fine.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

lol # x11 


hunter ur girls training sounds so real not sporty at all


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## pkhoury (Jun 4, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Too much variance--you'll know more about your puppy's adult energy and activity levels by looking at his current energy and activity levels. As a puppy, he will go for shorter periods, have less focus, and less stamina--but other elements usually remain very similar.
> 
> And remember that energy and activity and drive are not the same, nor are they always correlated.


We had our first training session last Saturday, and he performed better than half the other dogs there when they worked on an intro to bite training (intro, because he's still losing and acquiring teeth). His energy level tends to be pretty high, although when we're done, he does go out like a lamp and sleep pretty well.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

pets4life said:


> lol # x11
> 
> 
> hunter ur girls training sounds so real not sporty at all


Some dogs are just more "real" and see protection as just that. I know my girl does as well, I haven't done muzzle work but she will bite a hidden sleeve with no hesitation. I would LOVE to try muzzle work with her but would need a decoy/helper with experience before I tried it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> but would need a decoy/helper with experience before I tried it.


and one willing to have a few ribs or cheekbones cracked....


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> and one willing to have a few ribs or cheekbones cracked....


Haha... Yeah, she may be a small package but she hits like a brick house.. lol.


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