# WGWL not real



## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

So I've been studying different working lines and I've seen some people stating that wgwl are used mainly for high levels of sporting. Does this mean that they aren't very civil dogs generally? I've also seen some say that they are fairly aggressive. I'm really confused.

V (2009 USA SS) Boy von Zorra

For example, would you consider this to be a sporting line? I'm just curious if anybody could chime in.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

I'll let others with more knowledge of bloodlines in general and WGWL in particular chime in on whether they are appropriate for non-sporting family (although based on what I've seen in other threads I strongly suspect the answer is yes). I think you also need to be a little more careful in your terminology. It seems like you're using the term "civil" as a synonym for polite or well behaved with strangers. My understanding is that when someone says a GSD is a "civil" dog they mean something very different and it could create a real potential for miscommunication if you tell a breeder you are looking for a "civil" dog. "Aggressive" is also something of a loaded word that can be interpreted a number of ways.

BTW - I'm interested to hear what others say about the dog you linked to. My only observation is that generally I prefer the looks of the GSL dogs, but think that is one good looking dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This should explain civil:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/185534-civil-meaning.html


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Are you looking to get a dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you considering getting a Boy puppy? I've met him and I've owned and trained one of his sons so I could give my opinion but don't really want to use him as an example just because.


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

Yes to both questions lol


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Any good Shepherd will bark and alert you. No need to get caught up in the civil mumbo jumbo. 

This is over generalizing but if you want the most "real" of all the different stereotypical working lines then get a czech dog. High natural suspicion and have no problem biting. Also pretty territorial. Wouldn't recommend a plumber just walking into your house without permission. Then again I wouldn't recommend a good czech dog to a first time owner either.


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

simba405 said:


> Any good Shepherd will bark and alert you. No need to get caught up in the civil mumbo jumbo.
> 
> This is over generalizing but if you want the most "real" of all the different stereotypical working lines then get a czech dog. High natural suspicion and have no problem biting. Also pretty territorial. Wouldn't recommend a plumber just walking into your house without permission. Then again I wouldn't recommend a good czech dog to a first time owner either.



Ok thanks! Just the way some people refer to sports dogs make it seem like they are retrievers that play tug on a sleeve with no real aggression


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cltyus said:


> Ok thanks! Just the way some people refer to sports dogs make it seem like they are retrievers that play tug on a sleeve with no real aggression


Those kinda dogs are common. Civil, socially aggressive dogs aren't for everyone, but are manageable by a first time owner if they really consider what is entailed before getting such a dog


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

I can handle it, I've had other aggressive breeds before, and a shepherd, just wasn't a working line...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I tend to favor the WL dogs my self, they tend to make what your dealing with pretty clear!


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My first ever dog is a well tempered Czech working line- great dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have also hung out with Boy. He is a very clear, social dog, but you would not walk into the house uninvited.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Can't say much about the different lines myself as I am just learning, but my current one is a WGWL. He's smart as a whip, seems to have average drive (though that can vary depending on individual dogs), and a very solid temperament - I haven't found anything that spooks him. 

I can't say much about his protection ability as he is still young at under a year old. Haven't done any bite work, he has no protection training, but he will most definitely alert me if he feels something is off or if he hears or sees something strange inside or outside the house. Very alert and attentive in general. Other than that, he is relaxed and easygoing in pretty much every situation and around every person he has encountered.

I have heard if you are looking for a very high drive competition dog, the czech lines are the best ones to look at. I'm sure others with more experience will also give you more information. Good luck on your search!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Civil, socially aggressive dogs aren't for everyone, but are manageable by a first time owner if they really consider what is entailed before getting such a dog


Over & over one reads that breeds XYZ aren't for inexperienced owners...that they're not suited to 1st time owners. I've had a couple of Sibes, which are among those breeds 'inexperienced dog owners' are cautioned against but those warnings aren't (imo) well considered or really helpful. You can own 50 biddable Goldens & still not be prepared for the HUGE prey/kill drive, escapist tendencies, over the top energy & intransigent independence embodied in the average Husky. How many Cavalier Spaniels before one is prepared to keep one of the giant flock guards? 

Hunter's advice is (imo) spot on. Know what owning/managing a particular breed entails. Know the problems associated with particular breeds, types lines & be certain you can deal with those problems safely & effectively. Be very, very certain it's not the image or myth you're keen on, that the actual dog really is well suited to your circumstances, life style & community.


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

Thanks, I'm 100% sure on the dog. I've had a shepherd before, it was a dog we rescued from the streets, I was just looking more into the working lines that's all. I've had a shar pei from Hades, and managed that well lol I've researched for a couple years, been around different shepherds, so I'm sure as to what I'm getting into.


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

I've only heard great things about Boy!


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

"real" dogs aren't good for inexperienced owners because they have no problem biting and will actually go forward to bite. They need strong leadership and guidance and sometimes a firm hand. They need to be taught what is an appropriate threat and what isn't. 

Let an adolescent dog make its own decision and you could have a dog with multiple bites by the time it's one year old. 

Of course take any dog that's barking it's head off and biting a sleeve and call it real and an inexperienced buyer wouldn't know any different.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I got the OP's PM but will respond here since maybe it's still relevant....

I'm still not sure if we're talking about supposed "real dogs" in general or Boy....from what I have personally seen from Boy, I would not be concerned that he or a dog like him is going to be too much dog for a newbie owner as long as that owner understands owning a working line GSD in general. This is especially true if the puppy is bought from Bill and Jen, I believe they are very thorough with prospective buyers and sell the puppy that matches the buyer. 

I originally bought a Boy puppy *because* I though Boy was very stable, not an overly sharp dog, a "safe" sort of dog. A dog that would produce a nice working dog that could excel in many venues but not be a dog that couldn't live in my house with my family and accompany us on vacations or bonfires with kids, that sort of thing. I don't mean to say he's not a beast in protection, not at all, looks like he could really stop a helper, but when I met him I was not uncomfortable playing with him and petting him as if he were a pet. The puppy I raised for two years was a good natured dog, high prey drive and somewhat lower threshold for my taste but a fun, easy dog to train. He set a breed speed record in flyball after less than a year of training and just recently at 3 years of age placed 10th at the working dog championship with his current owner. I also put some fun titles on him like dock diving and lure coursing. I asked for a competitive Schutzhund prospect with drive to do all sorts of sports and be a safe family dog and I feel that's what I got. Sure there's a civil/defensive/real/whatever you want to call it side to him just as there is any dog if you push the right buttons.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

simba405 said:


> Then again I wouldn't recommend a good czech dog to a first time owner either.


Depends on the individual dog and the owner. 

It worked out very well for us.


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## cltyus (Feb 8, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I got the OP's PM but will respond here since maybe it's still relevant....
> 
> I'm still not sure if we're talking about supposed "real dogs" in general or Boy....from what I have personally seen from Boy, I would not be concerned that he or a dog like him is going to be too much dog for a newbie owner as long as that owner understands owning a working line GSD in general. This is especially true if the puppy is bought from Bill and Jen, I believe they are very thorough with prospective buyers and sell the puppy that matches the buyer.
> 
> I originally bought a Boy puppy *because* I though Boy was very stable, not an overly sharp dog, a "safe" sort of dog. A dog that would produce a nice working dog that could excel in many venues but not be a dog that couldn't live in my house with my family and accompany us on vacations or bonfires with kids, that sort of thing. I don't mean to say he's not a beast in protection, not at all, looks like he could really stop a helper, but when I met him I was not uncomfortable playing with him and petting him as if he were a pet. The puppy I raised for two years was a good natured dog, high prey drive and somewhat lower threshold for my taste but a fun, easy dog to train. He set a breed speed record in flyball after less than a year of training and just recently at 3 years of age placed 10th at the working dog championship with his current owner. I also put some fun titles on him like dock diving and lure coursing. I asked for a competitive Schutzhund prospect with drive to do all sorts of sports and be a safe family dog and I feel that's what I got. Sure there's a civil/defensive/real/whatever you want to call it side to him just as there is any dog if you push the right buttons.




Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to know..When I was saying real I was meaning that I've read of people breeding for so much sport, that they lose the level of aggression that should come with the breed to win titles....if that makes sense..... I wasn't concerned about boy, I was just using him as an example


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

He can (and has) produce dogs that will title. They may not be as sharp or civil as some, but often that's not really what you want if your goal is to title. I like him a lot, and I'm a pretty hard sell.


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