# Neutering Question



## Leetle (Aug 13, 2009)

Can anyone tell me when I should get Rex neutered? I had heard 4 months now I read on here 2 years so I am very confused and just want to do what is best. He is an indoor dog goes out with me for exercise and gets along great with my 5 year old rescued spayed female doberman.


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## Leetle (Aug 13, 2009)

Did I post this question in the correct place?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

If you are sure you are capable of keeping him from reproducing, I would wait until he is at least 2yo or not neuter him at all. I would NOT do it at 4 months no matter WHAT the vet says!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

here's a site with some information 
http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/spay_neuter_risks_benefits.aspx

I know I've had one vet say wait until at least 2 if ever and another who advocated neutering at 6 months.

From what I've read and heard, I agree with waiting until at least two years old if you can control your dog (prevent unwanted pregnancies).

Makes sense me that the dogs need their natural hormones to develop properly .


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## Leetle (Aug 13, 2009)

Having another dog in the house and him being an inside dog will he not start marking before 2 years?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Depends on the dog. IMO, marking in the house is more of a housebreaking "issue" than an "intact male" issue.

My male is intact and will be 10yo on the 29th. He has NEVER marked in the house even when sharing it with 2 other intact males. Not even when Siren was in heat did he EVER even attempt to mark in the house.

My males littermate "Butch" used to live here too. HE DID attempt to mark in the house ONCE. We had a "come to jesus meeting" and he NEVER did it again.

If you are asking about him marking OUTSIDE, then he probably will. But as long as it is outside, who cares.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quoteepends on the dog.


Depends on the dog AND the owner. Do NOT tolerate this behavior. IF you live with others, spouse, children , roomies etc, be certain <u>nobody</u> tolerates it.


> Quote:HE DID attempt to mark in the house ONCE. We had a "come to jesus meeting" and he NEVER did it again.


Exactly! Dog AND owner.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I agree with the suggestion to wait until the dog is at least 2 or don't have it done at all, as long as he isn't allowed to roam. 

I have a 7 year old intact dog who has been bred several times who lives with intact females and he doesn't mark in the house. My family always kept intact males as pets when I was younger and they never marked either, even when we had three living together. There is a lot of propaganda out there about intact animals and benefits of altering. Most of what you read is very one sided, half truths or outright lies intended to sway people into altering their pet. The Animal Rights movement has made spaying/neutering PC to shelters, the general public and even pet professionals such as vets, trainers and groomers using this propaganda over the past couple decades.


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## lauramichelle (Mar 11, 2009)

My vet recomended to have my boy neutered as soon as everything dropped. We had it done at 4.5 months. He healed very well with no complications. I dont know much about the controversy of waiting longer....but I trust my vet and she said the younger the better for large dogs, so that is what I did. 

Our old dog (non-gsd) who is 14 was neutered at 4 months old as well....and he has never had any issues.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I heard the big reason is testosterone helps build bone and muscle mass. That said, I had Otto done right after his first birthday. I was starting to see some behaviors that lead me to believe he'd start cruising for chicks soon. 

Also, his breeder has a strict policy about not registering the dogs until they are sp/neutered


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

In my contract with the breeder for Stark, it states that I can not neuter until he is atleast 9 months old. 

I plan to wait longer, closer to the 1-2 year mark just for the reasons mentioned above (build bone, muscle mass, etc..).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Isn't there also a possible cancer risk if neutered before a year old?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1193178&page=2#Post1193178


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

There is no study that says that although it seems to be a widespread misconception. I think it's based on a misunderstanding of the conclusions of the Rottie/osteosarcoma study's results.

If it were me, I'd neuter around 8 months. With the exception of the Rottie study, there isn't any scientific evidence that waiting longer than that confers any benefit even if it's the widespread opinion of people on this board. And the Rottie study didn't conclude that neutering at a year or later than a year was protective, it looked at lifetime increased risk versus lifetime spent unaltered in a breed known for a high incidence of osteosarcoma. 

I'd agree that there really aren't the health benefits to neutering that there are to spaying but I think the behavioral benefits can be substantial. Yes, you can definitely have an intact male who doesn't mark and who gets along well with other male dogs, but after fostering hundreds of dogs, I can definitely say that your odds of not marking and not fighting are better with a neutered dog. For most pet owners, neutering is going to help them have a pet they can live with and reduce the incidence of some of the behaviors that cause people to give dogs up.


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## chrissyho (Sep 16, 2009)

When I adopted my 9 weeks old gsd he was already fixed... and the first night he got home he already raped my hello kitty... I just wonder if he had a clean fixed or he was too young or it's gonna happen no matter what?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Humping behavior in puppies is a part of normal social behavior and is not sexual. It's not caused by early or incomplete neutering.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqThere is no study that says that although it seems to be a widespread misconception. I think it's based on a misunderstanding of the conclusions of the Rottie/osteosarcoma study's results.


I don't see how you can misunderstand this statement (taken from the study notes - the bolding is mine):



> Quote:To determine whether there was an association between
> endogenous sex hormones and risk of bone sarcoma,
> relative risk (RR) of incidence rates and hazard ratios for
> bone sarcoma were calculated for dogs subdivided on the
> ...


Here is a link to the study notes:

http://www.rawdogranch.com/EarlySpayNeuter.pdf


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Another quote from the study (again, bolding is mine):



> Quote:Females were more often diagnosed with bone sarcoma than males, however, the difference was not statistically significant [hazard ratio (95% CI)  1.01 (0.66–1.55); P  0.97] (Table 2). Age at gonadectomy significantly influenced risk for bone sarcoma. Both males and females that developed bone sarcoma were sexually intact for significantly fewer months than dogs that did not develop bone sarcoma (Table 2) [hazard ratios (95% CI)  0.98 (0.98–0.99) for males and 0.98 (0.97–0.99) for females; P  0.0001 for both]. In multivariate analysis, months intact remained significantly inversely associated with bone sarcoma risk after controlling for gender, adult height, and adult body weight (P  0.0001; Table 3). *For each additional month of being sexually intact, there was a 1.4% reduction in bone sarcoma risk*.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The misunderstanding is that 1 year of age represents some kind of magic number where gonadectomy prior to a year increases cancer risk but gonadectomy afterwards does not. That's not what the study is saying. The study correlated lifetime risk with lifetime alteration status. So waiting until your dog is a year old isn't protective and doing it before your dog is a year old isn't necessarily consigning them to cancer.

The biggest place I see this misunderstanding play out is with female dogs where people trade the very real benefits of the "magic number" of spaying before first heat versus after it, for a marginal decrease in the risk of osteosarcoma. They think by spaying after a couple heats that they're getting the best of both worlds when in fact they're actually getting the worst of both. 

Does that make sense? They weren't comparing dogs neutered at one year with dogs neutered after a year. The statement about dogs neutered prior to a year of age is just a benchmark and they're comparing dogs neutered prior to a year with dogs not neutered at all or neutered much much later in life.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: GSD SamWhen I adopted my 9 weeks old gsd he was already fixed... and the first night he got home he already raped my hello kitty...












The funny way it's put aside, Otto still jumps on my arm and makes the motion when he's anxious. Occasionally he curls his front leg around my leg, a much more endearing gesture that I encourage!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Argh,this is one thing I don't like to think about. Obie was surrendered to SPCA at 8 weeks old and neutered at 9 weeks.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqThe misunderstanding is that 1 year of age represents some kind of magic number where gonadectomy prior to a year increases cancer risk but gonadectomy afterwards does not. That's not what the study is saying. The study correlated lifetime risk with lifetime alteration status. So waiting until your dog is a year old isn't protective and doing it before your dog is a year old isn't necessarily consigning them to cancer.


See the second quote I made:



> Quote:For each additional month of being sexually intact, there was a 1.4% reduction in bone sarcoma risk.


That would mean that waiting longer *DOES* protect your dog.

If you wait until the dog is 12 months old instead of 6 months then you have reduced the risk by 8.4% (6 months * 1.4%).

If you wait until 24 months instead of 6 months then you have reduced the risk by 15.6%.

I would call that VERY protective.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I never said that waiting doesn't increase protection. I said that there's no study that shows that 1 year is a magic number. 

In terms of the percentages, that's not what they found. One, they looked at dogs altered before a year and compared them to dogs not altered at all in the statement you posted. They make no claims about variations between dogs altered at 4 months, 6 months, or 12 months etc. They did compar dogs altered before a year to dogs in other later age cohorts but if you look at the numbers, those stats aren't as compelling. Secondly, this is a 1.4% reduction out of a lifetime risk of 25% (at most), so that's not an absolute number. It's a percent of a percent. And thirdly, there's no hormonal exposure prior to puberty so you don't get your 1.4% of 25% until, let's say 9 months or so. By waiting until a dog is a year old, you're getting - at most with a very osteosarcoma prone breed - a 4.2% decrease of an overall risk of 25%, again - NOT an absolute 4.2% decrease. And again, we're talking Rotties. In other breeds, particularly smaller dogs, the lifetime risk is much much less (giant breeds have 185 times higher lifetime osteosarcoma risk than smaller dogs) so your benefit is proportionately smaller. 

When you compare this to a 8-22% absolute rate INCREASE in risk of mammary cancer, that's just not a good trade. 







Also, while dogs spayed before their first heat almost NEVER get mammary cancer, dogs who remain intact for their whole lives DO still get bone cancer. 

If someone has a _male_ giant breed then I agree there is a decent argument for waiting to neuter, assuming that the person is willing and able to deal with any associated behavioral or reproductive issues, but for spaying it really doesn't make sense to wait, at least not in terms of cancer risk. And even for males, the difference of younger than a year and just at or past a year is very slight because again, you're talking about a 1.4% reduction in an overall maximum 25% risk, and for a non-giant breed it's going to be a lot less.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I have been followng this thread carefully and would like to know what others would do in my situation and why. The breeder where I got Benny does not as a rule believe in neutering if a dog can be kept from unwanted breeding. My vet has never agrred with this and recommends nuetering at 4- 6 months. Benny is 5,5 months and is monorchid with one testicle that has not come down. The other was down when we got him at 7.5 weeks. I have been told that neutering is defintely recommended with a retained testicle because this increases the risk of cancer. I had planned to wait until Benny is 15- 18 months so he could fully develop? 

Should this be done earlier because of the retained testicle?
Is it possible that he does not even have that testicle?
Is it really true that a retained testicle increases cancer?

I know there are many different opinions abd I would like to know what others would di in my situation.

Our daughters friend, a vet tech said last night that she cannot even feel it on the inside.

Our vet said the surgery is less risky and easier on the dog at 4- 6 months. 

I tend to be the type to not mess with nature as much as possible . 

If and when I do have Benny neutered I will insist on an ultrasound to locate the testicle and also preop test to determine and clotting problems. I decided this after my son lost his beloved 5 year old Pit Bull in July 4 days after being neutered when it was discovered he had hemophilia type B.

The new Pit Puppy he adopted had to be spayed at 4 months before we could take her home so the choice was not ours.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Dante was cryptorchid.
The contract said I'd neuter at 2 but I decided to neuter at 14 months as I got concerned about the testicular cancer.

If I ever have another that is cryptorchid I will go ahead and wait (barring anything else) until the dog is 2 years old. The reading I did later made me feel that the cancer risk (which is real) actually doesn't become an issue until they are older.

Dante's retained testicle was in deep hiding and so I wish we had done an ultrasound first to locate it. The vet said she'd suggest it to future clients - she'd never had a testicle in the place where Dante's was.

The only issue was keeping Dante quiet for the 2 weeks, since his incision was so large (which you shouldn't have with an ultra sound first) he was on leash and crate for the entire time and I thought we would both go nuts. Since he did everything with great enthusiasm we couldn't play the normal indoor "quiet" games.


Should this be done earlier because of the retained testicle?
In my opinion (not a vet, don't even play one on tv) No

Is it possible that he does not even have that testicle?
Yes

Is it really true that a retained testicle increases cancer?
In my opinion (not a vet, don't even play one on tv) Yes


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I would definitely neuter due to the retained testicle, even if your original plan was not to neuter him as per your breeder's recommendations. But I don't think you need to rush out and do it right this second, waiting until he's 15-18 months is probably fine.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Ringer had a retained testicle and his co-owner had me take him to several specialists. I was told there was no problem in waiting until he was 18 - 24 months old before having him neutered and the retained testicle removed (but they all agreed it should be removed to prevent cancer).

IMHO if the vet can't locate the retained testicle prior to surgery, I'd have an ultra-sound done to find it.


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

Rex is 6 mo old now and i have an appointment with the vet in 2 weeks to talk about getting him neutered. EVERYBODY tells me to neuter him now before a bad/aggressive behavior even starts... I really don't know what to do. 
Wait or listen to the vet and other people and neuter him asap


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Most vets seem to want to nueuter between 4 and 6 months, but many German Shepherd breeder feel it best to wait until 18 months or 2 so they can fully develop. Read the earlier posts on this thread for good info.

Why does your vet assume Res will become aggressive?


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't know honestly... it seems to me that everybody I talk to says "Do you want an aggressive dog?- If not, neuter him"... 

Rex doesn't show any aggressive behavior but I guess a lot of people think ALL GSD are going to be aggressive at some point?!









I have an appointment with another vet in 2 weeks. We'll see what he says. My breeder also said between 6-12 months is a good time to neuter him...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

When I had Dodge, he wasn't neutered until he was probably almost 2.5 - 3 years old,,I showed him for awhile..Anyhow, he lived with 2 other male dogs and an intact female for awhile. 

I NEVER had a problem with him marking, being aggressive or looking to hump any female in site. 

I totally agree it depends on the dog and the diligence of the owner as well..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rush is a therapy dog. He is intact and 3 1/2. No aggressive problems. 

I got him at ten weeks, took him to puppy kindergarten at twelve weeks (six weeks), then basic obedience (6 wks), advanced obedience (six weeks), CGC classes (8 wks), After that I have let him finish out a class here or there if a bitch went in heat. 

The thing is, he had been out and about and around other dogs and people as a youngster. He is absolutely adorable at the vet. I am afraid that a burglar could steal him.


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## michel33 (Sep 22, 2009)

I've been wondering the same thing. I have two males and I really don't want to have them neutered. I even read in an older dog training book that if you wait too long it won't do too much to curb aggression. So many different answers from so many different people, it's hard to decide what to do.


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