# kirschental



## sprzybyl

Hi, 
I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to specifics as far as bloodlines/ pedigrees go, but I was wondering if someone could give me more info on the kirschental bloodline. If I'm not mistaken, this is a German working line? Looking at a pup from this origin, and want to know more about what I'm getting into


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## onyx'girl

http://www.leerburg.com/fuller.htm
This link is from a conversation Ed Frawley had with Karl Fuller, from the Kirschental Kennels. Onyx has some Kirschental in her background. I thought it was working lines, but was informed it is actually a showline. These dogs are working dogs though, IMO!!


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## WiscTiger

Kirchental Kennels were when Karl was younger known for producing great herding dogs. These dogs were a combination of working and showlines, more on the showlines with working lines to keep the drives where Karl wanted them. Many of the pups today still can herd, it is just that Karl can't any more.


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## sprzybyl

Thanks, especially for the link! Very useful! I see how they are a cross between show/ working lines. I guess I better get ready for that DRIVE!


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## Liesje

They look like west German show (and do show), but were intended for herding type work. My Kenya's breeder has several of them. One of them is a 12x HGH (herding) and BSZS herding Siegerin. I hope Karl's legacy will live on through the lines.


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## EastGSD

Yes....lovely lines







This was one of the major reasons I went with the German show line male that sired my last litter...his dam was down from Kirchental and some nice lines at that. 

Cherri


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## doggiedad

Kirchental Shepherds are one of the best. if you want the same high quality pedigree, show lines and imported take look at vomVollkommen Shepherds. http://www.vomvollkommenshepherds.com or http://www.vomvollkommen.com. great dogs but cheaper. if i'm not mistaken they're pups are 3,000.00 and up. i might be wrong on the price. vomVollKollmen pups, 1,800.00. i have one and couldn't be happier and believe me i looked hard and long before i found them. when you say "looking at a pup from this origin" what do you mean? is one parent from Kirchental and the other parent from some other breeder? i just thought of something if Kirchental has pet quality Sheps i bet there's a thin line between her pet quality and show dogs meaning her pet quality dogs are gorgeous and smart. good luck in your search for a puppy. don't rush, that special puppy and breeder is going to be out there for you. the longer you look the more you learn. keep notes on the different breeders and dogs. when you start looking at dogs on the Kirchental level you're going to see alot of nice dogs/pups. our boy is a show-working dog. he's calm in the house and active outside (we live in a small house). when you go with those top of the line dogs training is going be a breeze. stick with the forum there's lots of info and knowledge here. take care.


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## Brightelf

Kirschental is right here in where I live! Marion Füller now runs the kennel, I think? The page has a flag in English to click on...
http://www.kirschental.de
C'mon, you guys, come over and visit sometime.







The SV clubhouse is a 15 minute walk from here!


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## Chris Wild

The old Kirschental herding lines would be considered "working" and are found in many modern working line pedigrees. The more modern Kirschental stuff is considered German show lines. Many of the dogs can still herd, but the primary focus of the breeding is more geared toward the show ring.


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## Deejays_Owner

The Füller are crossing there "Show-lines" with working-lines also.
Saw a litter for sale, from them not to long ago.


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## onyx'girl

How do you do the u with the accents?? Sorry to get off topic


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## Ocean

Kirschental is not really easy to categorize even though most people today seem to have a thing for putting everything neatly in boxes.

Herr Karl Fuller was breeding GSDs since way back in the 50s, when there was no such thing as a "show" / "working" split. When the split happened in the 70s under the Martin Brothers, Fuller continued what he had always been doing, that is producing show dogs that could work. That is what his contemporaries did in the 50s and 60s: famous kennels such as Lierberg, Bungalow, Busecker Schloss, Haus Dexel, Wienerau, etc.

He always followed the old German practice of breeding working females (herding) with conformation males. A technique that has been practiced since Horand. If you follow the bloodlines of his females, you can see GSDs from the 40s and 50s that are more commonly found in so called working lines today.

So his dogs often have what people would consider "mixed" show/working bloodlines. Since Herr Fuller has forgotten more about GSD breeding than most "expert" GSD breeders today know, I think he deserves his own special category.


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## EastGSD

I agree Ocean. The blend in my puppies' sire's ped to me was interesting and with purpose not just VA to VA...it showed a thought process going on and it appeared to be it continued with Brebe Am See doing the same type of breeding....I respect this.

Cherri


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlHow do you do the u with the accents?? Sorry to get off topic


Turn on your Num Lock, then hold Alt and press 129 (on the number pad to the right, or the Num Lock numbers over the letters on the keyboard, not your normal numbers along the top)


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## cliffson1

Ocean,
Your comments are very accurate and the kirschental kennel is one of the great herding kennels. Karl Fuller has forgot more about GS then most people will ever know. He has always used the same breeding practices, and those other kennels also bred in that fashion.The only difference today (and it is a giant difference), is like you said in the 50's and 60's, the showline dogs had genetic vigor and diversity and thus still retained their working ability. Top show dogs were bi-color, sables, and even blacks. Today that is no longer the case and the vigor, genetic diversity, and working ability has been compromised in the top showlines...ie this formula has been abandoned by the other kennels you have named, except Winereau who was a major contributor to today's showlines being what they are. Love Karl Fuller, and Kirschental, but old breeding practice is no longer as effective with today's showlines...JMO.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Did you check out this brag link ???

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=699869&page=0#Post699869


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## luvmygirl

We have a Kirschental boy! We were lucky enough to go to the 2006 BSZS and got to meet Marion Fuller and talk with her a bit. We learned so much on that trip. 

Patti, look out - we may just do it!!!


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## Brightelf

LOL Pam, come on down!!







Lots of things to see and do here. PM me if you ever want to come visit!







If you bring your Kirschental boy with you (envy..envy..envy..), Grimm would love to meet him.







Me, too!


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## luvmygirl

You got it!







Just waiting for the dollar to recover against the euro, ugh...


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeDid you check out this brag link ???
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=699869&page=0#Post699869


That's my Kenya's breeder. ALL of her breeding dogs are directly from Kirschental (and carry the kennel name), not just by way of pedigree. They are very beautiful and talented dogs. I admire them each time I go now that we have a club there.


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## avagsd

I have had two Kirschental dogs, a male and a female. Their most outstanding characteristic was their biddability. These dogs were so compliant - the easiest dogs to train on the planet. Neither ever touched anything that wasn't specifically given to them by me. They could both be loose in the house (when I was out) by six months of age. I would never do that with any of my other dogs at that age... LOL. Great personalities.

Ava


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## hooptybug

> Originally Posted By: luvmygirlJust waiting for the dollar to recover against the euro, ugh...


We have a club here forming for that....


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## sprzybyl

> Originally Posted By: avagsdI have had two Kirschental dogs, a male and a female. Their most outstanding characteristic was their biddability. These dogs were so compliant - the easiest dogs to train on the planet. Neither ever touched anything that wasn't specifically given to them by me. They could both be loose in the house (when I was out) by six months of age. I would never do that with any of my other dogs at that age... LOL. Great personalities.
> 
> Ava


Oh goodness- my 4 month old puppy is smart as a whistle! She learned her name, "Come", and "sit" IMMEDIATELY. (We are talking 3 hours of owning her, ha). She is a JOY! She isn't overly energetic and is doing sooo well with everything- just like you said... surprisingly well!! If all puppies were this wonderful I think I'd have 3!! (lol). ::knocks on wood!::


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## Xeph

If you guys don't mind me asking, how much do they charge for puppies? I've wanted a Kirschental pup for years...


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## Brightelf

Jackie, I don't know what the price for a pup out of Kirschental is.. but look at Panjo







on their page!! Come surf my sofa this summer. The SV is 15 minutes by walking from my place, and full of Kirschental dogs. Marion Füller is in the club. Kirschental kennel itself is here in my hometown. I have seen a few of their dogs around town-- all amazingly well-behaved.. THAT really stands out, even in the puppy I saw on the bus. His ears were still semi-floppy, and he was supercalm riding the big, noisy citybus! _Very _good nerves. Grimm adores guests. Got a passport? Seriously, *you are welcome *anytime!


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## Xeph

I do indeed have a passport. What I don't have is money xD But I certainly WILL come visit sometime! I've been to Austria once before and loved it...I bet Germany is to die for!

I'd love to see a Siegerschau there!


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## sprzybyl

> Originally Posted By: XephIf you guys don't mind me asking, how much do they charge for puppies? I've wanted a Kirschental pup for years...


Michele from Alpenhof (alpenhofgsd.ca) breeds kirschental. She's considerably closer (in Niagra Falls area of Canada).


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## kutzro357

How does this work? I`m looking at one of my pedigrees and it shows
<span style="color: #CC0000">Dam Mangona Vom Kirschental to Sire Irk Von Arminius
produced
Dam Lessli Vom Kirschental
then
Dam Lessli Vom Kirschental to Sire Gauner Von Arminius
produced 
Sire Wiko Vom Kirschental</span>

Fleischerheim, Vom Hirschel , Haus Beck , Vom Wildsteiger Land , Arminius, etc are all my 3 dogs pedigrees. I was always told they are German Showline. That`s correct, right?


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## Brightelf

Jackie, if you can someday scrounge the planefare, the lodging to crash at my place is free, as would be your meals.(DH is/was gourmet chef--no kidding). The Siegerschau is great to see, but too, lots of stuff here is different.. lots of cars with crates built into them for dogshows, hooks outside shops for dogs to be leashed outside while handler shops, etc. Plus, Giant Schnauzers have tails and natural ears, Rottweilers have tails here.. and most common breed we see are wirecoat Dachsies. PM me if you ever want to visit. I would also love to see Kirschental kennels-- am hoping to have a second visit to the SV here!







Very nice people!


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: XephIf you guys don't mind me asking, how much do they charge for puppies? I've wanted a Kirschental pup for years...


PM GSDRule. She is Kenya's breeder and knows the Fullers personally (has been to their home/kennel). All of her bitches are directly from Kirschental. Her "Funny" (Faye) was Karl's favorite dog, champion herding bitch. She can tell you more about them. Some things in this thread are merely speculation/observation. Best to get info from them or at least people who know them personally....


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## onyx'girl

Onyx' grandfather is: Larus von Alpenhof http://www.alpenhofgsd.ca
great-grandparents are sire: SG Lassan vom Kirschetal
dam: V Resa vom Kirschental 
Unfortunately, I cannot get Onyx sire's pedigree(still working on it, though!


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## WiscTiger

kutzro357, Kirschental are show lines that work. When Karl was younger and herding a lot of sheep they were know more for herding dogs. The lines still herd and they mixed showlines with working lines very successfully.


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## kutzro357

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tigerkutzro357, Kirschental are show lines that work. When Karl was younger and herding a lot of sheep they were know more for herding dogs. The lines still herd and they mixed showlines with working lines very successfully.


That`s what they say about the other half of their pedigree which is Vom Haus Beck, Wildsteiger Land, and Fanto Vom Hirschel who I`ve heard was awesome at Schutzhund from some judges.
I like the drive and temperament that produced.


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## traumhof

Hi Everyone,
I don't often post here, but this thread was brought to my attention & I couldn't resist.
There are several of us in the US that are breeding Kirschental lines, carrying on a long legacy of a mother line that works and produces progeny that can work. (Herding IS also work, folks.)
Some people invest in a K bitch for their program, and then breed her to whatever they are breeding for - which might be conformation. Karl & Marion have no control over this. What others do in their program is up to the individual. Others are trying to stick to the "original recipee" & be sure not to lose/dilute the Kirschental work ethic & characteristics we love.
For those who make comments based on hearsay, you really shouldn't! Karl is indeed still herding; just not as his daily occupation/job. He has not been in the best health in recent years, but he does continue to work dogs with sheep. He put a HGH on my Xeniali Kirschental in 2006, and since then has titled a couple more. Laiga Kirschental was titled this summer.
It is also untrue to say that his goals have ever changed. Karl's goals have remained the same. The mother line is so strong here, and breeds so true (Meaning the progeny most often carry the characteristics of the mother line) that he has been able to successfully cross on carefully selected conformation/Showline dogs, and the occasional Working Line dog, and still keep the qualities we all love in his own line. 
My Kirschental dogs Herd. They are titled HGH and they work sheep here in the USA, too. Some ar ealso titled Schutzhund. My double K bred young dogs are in training according to what they show the most promise for - HGH or Schutzhund. We also have produced dogs actively working in SAR.
Karl has always been known for producing the best looking, most conformationally correct Herding dogs he could. He does not breed for current fads, but for the long term goal. He has been successful for over 50 years. 
For those of you who feel something has been "lost" & that the dogs now are "mere" show dogs; you are mistaken. The dogs still have the Herding ability they always had.
I invite you to come to our club and see Sherry vom Kirschental - 2X HGH Sieger - do his bitework.. or come the other weekend day and watch him with sheep. Sherry is everyhtign good about a K dog - he has work ethic, he is handsome, and he is 100% sound in character; a dog you cna take anyhwere and trust. Similarly, my Kirschental bitches are also excellent with sheep, and some are equally strong in bitework. Sherry's young daughter Bunny - show rated SG - is a natural with sheep, and we hope to title her this fall. 
The K dogs are not known for being the Hardest ever, or the Conformation type of the moment... but I assure you they are dogs with work ethic, brains, problem solving ability to spare, and a desire to be correct. A true golden middle dog. This makes life training them much easier than with some other individuals!
My program is and always will be based on K lines. They are my personal preference. Everyone has one, right?!
Karl and Marion are honest people who breed great dogs, and I am proud to have their dogs & call them my friends. 
For those interested in Karl's views on things.. I am finishing work on an article that will be in an upcoming issue of USA Schtuzhund magazine. Karl, who remains elusive as far interviews, agreed to participate and work with me on this article (He agreed with Marion's Persuasion!).
Brightelf: Maybe we can introduce ourselves! I will be staying with the Fullers for the BSZS. I was also to the training club the last time I was there.
My personal advice; if you want a Kirschental bred puppy, with the strength of all their breeding behind it, get one from the Fullers or from someone who breeds for the same goals as they do. 
Karen Priest
http://www.traumhofgsd.com


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## onyx'girl

Thank you for posting that information! Onyx has the herding instinct which never shuts off. Her grandfather and great grandparents are from Kirschental, and those bloodlines must be strong. Looking thru the Kirshental website, I only saw one bi-color and it was an old pic. Do you see many bi-colors coming from this line? Her mother has thrown 4 out of two litters(3 and 1), with different sires.


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## PattyGannon

I have a Sherry puppy and I could not be any happier. Beside having brains, this stud dog has the personality and kindness. The proof is in the pudding, check out this pix of dad and his prodigy!








Here is Sherry hanging out with my husband.








Patty


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## WiscTiger

Sorry last I hear Karl was not in good health and not working the dogs much.

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc

I love the k dogs! Kayos' breeder has a K dog and I would love a pup one day.


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## Robocop

bumpin this


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## onyx'girl

FYI~~The July-August issue of GSDCA-WDA newsletter has an interview with Karl Fuller by Karen Priest!!


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## koda00

i just found this thread by accident as im still trying to name my new pup. I was going thru the Kirschental lines to see about names and i came across this. This is where i acquired both my pups, from karen of Traumhof. My new pup is a Sherry Kirschental son and my Ryker is a grandson of Sherry.


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## Bitsy Seuffert

sprzybyl said:


> Hi,
> I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to specifics as far as bloodlines/ pedigrees go, but I was wondering if someone could give me more info on the kirschental bloodline. If I'm not mistaken, this is a German working line? Looking at a pup from this origin, and want to know more about what I'm getting into


could I ask you which breeder you were looking at for this Kirschental offspring? Just lost our GSD with his lines and we are beginning to look for another. Cannot imagine getting another line given our great success with our first.


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## wolfstraum

Traumhof is in MA I believe and has a deep pool of Kirschental breeding stock.

Lee


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## blehmannwa

New Skete is also using Kirschental in their stock as is a breeder in Washington state.


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## Liesje

Alpenhof had Kirschental dogs, not sure how many are still alive or breeding though.

Also Alta-Tollhaus in Michigan. My dog is from there and his mother was imported from Kirschental, she is passed though, as are some of the other previous brood bitches from Kirschental, but I think two of my dog's sisters are being bred so they carry the line.


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## alexg

wolfstraum said:


> Traumhof is in MA I believe and has a deep pool of Kirschental breeding stock.
> 
> Lee


Are they that good as they say they are? Thx
I mean the kennel not the dogs...


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## Liesje

The dogs now are basically west German show line. The ones that I have personally known, trained with, and observed in training and at home have, in my opinion, had better temperaments than most WGSL. They had more hardness, more drive, more aptitude for training and work that involved a fair amount of pressure. After Herr Fuller passed away, his family sold off most of the remaining dogs and was no longer going to breed. However I believe recently his wife is getting back into it a bit. Herr Fuller was a shepherd himself, he used his dogs to work his flock.


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## Donovan514

I just purchased a pup from one of the last dogs Karl worked with. I'm hoping she's a great dog as I know Kirschental lines are top notch.


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## Donovan514

Sorry, didn't realize this was such an old topic.


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## mspiker03

Donovan514 said:


> I just purchased a pup from one of the last dogs Karl worked with. I'm hoping she's a great dog as I know Kirschental lines are top notch.


Do you have a Xally puppy too?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Donovan514

mspiker03 said:


> Do you have a Xally puppy too?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have a pup from V1 Java Von Kirschental. I believe Java is 6 years old.


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## mspiker03

Donovan514 said:


> I have a pup from V1 Java Von Kirschental. I believe Java is 6 years old.


Gotcha. I know Marion (at Kirschental) just had another litter from Xally, who my pup is from. 


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## lrodptl

I have a New Skete Shepherd (5 years old) whose parents are both Kirschental. He is a complete nervebag and has bitten. He is the most intelligent and athletic shepherd I've seen but he is uncontrollable when his environment is less than calm. He's also afraid of ringing cellphones,certain noises and cowers and pees if you ask him for his paw. He pees when pressured,even to put his collar on. He needs managed. I heard Kirschental had a bad decade or so after Karl passed. Also,my dog's left ear never went up,another trait I heard that Kirschental has produced.


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## mspiker03

I am not going to comment on nerve issues (my two Kirschentals are fine - and zero noise sensitivity) and ear issues (paisleys were up at 12 weeks and my pups are now up almost 100% of the time - I give it another week; his brothers ears are up). But, Karl only passed in 2012 I believe and Marion only continued breeding for 1.5-2 years. Not sure what the decade after he passed they had issues is all about...

Just wanted to correct some of the facts that weren't accurate.


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