# How to train the DOWN STAY?



## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

I'm trying to get my 4.5 month old puppy to learn the DOWN STAY for an extended period of time.

She knows down. She knows stay. 

She will stay if she has her eyes on me. 

But she seems unable or unwilling to remain in the DOWN STAY position for as long as I want her to. 

Sometimes she pops up to SIT, back DOWN, then back up to a SIT. 

Sometimes, she gets up and wanders a little bit in my direction until I tell her again to go DOWN and STAY.

And if I disappear from sight, she will definitely pop up and start wandering around looking for me, or sniffing around.

And forget the down or the stay for any significant period of time it if there are other dogs nearby.

Is it just her age or am I missing something?

Thank you.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm laughing because your pup is only 4.5 mo! She's doing great! With my gnat brained 10 mo, platz is difficult and held for 1/2 second... 

I'll tell you how I taught it with my 5 yo when she was a youngster since I haven't done it with the gnat brain.

A lot of it is her age. You might want to decrease your expectation for a while.

Let her have her eyes on you. Reward the down stay BEFORE she breaks it. (walk up to her, praise her, reward her keep her in the down, move away ) Build on this gradually with many rewards - as success comes. 

Not ready for you to go out of site just yet.

Really it sounds like you have done great with her so far. Congratulate yourself and your pup. Play.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

arctic said:


> I'm trying to get my 4.5 month old puppy to learn the DOWN STAY *for an extended period of time.*


I agree with middle, at her age it's not realistic to expect her to hold a stay for an extended period of time. 

In fact, even though it seems like she "knows" both down and stay, it's likely that they're not fully generalized behaviors yet either. Will she immediately drop into a down on cue no matter where she is, no matter what she's doing, no matter where YOU are and what you're doing? For example, if you sit on the floor and tell her "down" does she immediately comply? How about if she's at the vet's office or on a busy street corner or in the car? With her both in front of you toe to toe and at your side in heel position or with your back turned? In a group of people or with other dogs nearby? If not, she doesn't really _know_ down yet. Working on your cues in a variety of places and under a variety of different circumstances will help her generalize. 

I also agree that you've done a great job with her so far, but it will be better for both you and your puppy if you try to keep your expectations reasonable based on her age and attention span. If you're both having fun with training she's going to learn much faster than if you get frustrated because she's not doing something you think she should know by now.

How have you been training her so far? Are you rewarding her in place? If you want her to maintain position it's best to reward her while she's doing it, which will reinforce that this is a good place to be and she should just hang out there and get some yummy treats!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

In this link I have step by step instructions on how I train stay: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/153300-training-stay.html#post2057182

As I mentioned in that post, Halo had the best stay of all the dogs in any of her classes.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

arctic said:


> I'm trying to get my 4.5 month old puppy to learn the DOWN STAY for an extended period of time.
> 
> She knows down. She knows stay.
> 
> ...


You tell us what she does, but whats more important is what your doing. The dog is going to respond according to what you are doing and how you're doing it.

Best thing to do is not separate the down and stay but combine them as the same. Just use the "down" command as both down and stay. Teach it that way. It helps with less confusion. Also utilise a hand signal with verbal command. Palm down motioning down with "down" verbal command. Once dog is down, start close. Take ones step back. If dog stays down walk to the dog and use a release word for her to come out of the down, then reward and praise. Repeat and each time increase the distance. If the dog comes out of the down, walk back and stern voice repeat the down command. Just keep working this. She will get the idea of what you expect with the command. It's important you walk back each time to release and reward. Don't release at a distance right now. 

As she improves, you can start introducing distractions at a distance and move in closer as she improves. 

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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think what you may be missing Arctic, is something Jafo mentioned. A clear release. She has to know when its time to move, that she's done and was correct. Even if its only 1 second, down, release, move. Then add seconds to that. Make the release very clear.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jafo220 said:


> It's important you walk back each time to *release and reward*.


To make it clearer to the dog what she's being rewarded for, I'd reward THEN release, not the other way around.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Its realistic to get a semi reliable down stay on a 12 week old puppy in less than a week of training once a day.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> Its realistic to get a semi reliable down stay on a 12 week old puppy in less than a week of training once a day.


Sure, if you know what you're doing and work on it consistently. Halo had a great down stay off leash in a room full of other dogs and people in her puppy class with me walking around the room. But if someone isn't a very experienced trainer and doesn't really know how to train a reliable down stay, it's a lot less realistic.

Also, the OP isn't just looking for a "semi reliable down stay", s/he wants a down stay for an "extended period of time", even out of sight, and also in the presence of other dogs. That's a much higher level of difficulty.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> To make it clearer to the dog what she's being rewarded for, I'd reward THEN release, not the other way around.


Actually, no. You would want to keep the dog at a lower level of anxiety. If you go up to the dog and start rewarding and praising, the dog may come out of their down position especially if they have a low threshold . You're setting up for failure which is ok if you're utilising a training tool then yeh, but the dynamics of training change also with the tool used. But just positive training methods, I would reward after release just to reinforce that they shouldn't move until released. This will also play into downing at distance also. You will get to the point where you won't want to run back every time they down correctly to just reward. There is nothing wrong with rewarding a good release. Just my opinion.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

jafo220 said:


> Actually, no. You would want to keep the dog at a lower level of anxiety. If you go up to the dog and start rewarding and praising, the dog may come out of their down position especially if they have a low threshold . You're setting up for failure which is ok if you're utilising a training tool then yeh, but the dynamics of training change also with the tool used. But just positive training methods, I would reward after release just to reinforce that they shouldn't move until released. This will also play into downing at distance also. You will get to the point where you won't want to run back every time they down correctly to just reward. There is nothing wrong with rewarding a good release. Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I disagree. If the dog is in a down stay you reward to make it crystal clear to the dog that staying in a down stay gets it a reward. You reward every few seconds the dog is in the down stay. The better the dog gets the longer you go between rewarding. 

If you do it your way the dog is just eagerly waiting the release. It's anxious to get up. It doesn't want to stay in the down because it doesn't get a reward. The way that you described is the way that leads to higher anxiety.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I do it the way Simba and Debbie describe. The reward is for holding position. You can get farther away, longer duration, but always reinforce BEFORE they break position. If they are continuing to break position then they aren't ready for that distance or duration. This should be a build up of time and space.

If you reward after the release then you've rewarded FOR the release and not the down.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, I do both. I pay on the release to teach the release and I feed a little in position to reinforce it. But for me, release/reward comes first. Everything has a beginning and an end and its always anticipation of reward that gets the attention and focus you want, it doesn't have to create anxiety.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jafo220 said:


> Actually, no. You would want to keep the dog at a lower level of anxiety. *If you go up to the dog and start rewarding and praising, the dog may come out of their down position *especially if they have a low threshold.


That's never been my experience.  But at first I don't really leave the dog, I only take a quick step back and then forward again, as I explain in the post I linked to. If the dog breaks, I put it back in place and try again. The dog ONLY gets rewarded for maintaining the stay. Then I take 2 steps away and immediately return to reward, then a step or two to the side, then I walk partially around the dog, then completely around the dog, each time returning to reward. It doesn't take a smart puppy very long to figure out that it gets lots of yummy treats for just hanging out doing nothing.  I can jump up and down, clap my hands, run in place, whatever, and puppy stays and gets rewarded. 

The release is low key because I don't want the dog to think it's being rewarded for the release, it's being rewarded for remaining in place, so that's where the rewards happen.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> The reward is for holding position. You can get farther away, longer duration, but always reinforce BEFORE they break position. *If they are continuing to break position then they aren't ready for that distance or duration.*



^This. :thumbup:


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I guess I think outside the norm on this. Meh, that's fine. 

There is a lot of good info here. Hope it works out for the OP.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Down/stays are great...I didn't read all the responses but hope you received many good informational responses.

Pursuing and mastering a quality down/stay will serve you well.....just like a quality recall.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I forgot to mention..... my experience dictates a down/stay of duration was probably harder on me than the dog...I've gotten better since especially with my current gal.

SuperG


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Do it really matter if the dog thinks he/she is being rewarded for staying or for releasing as long as he/she stays until the release is given?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

To me it is important. I want to reward the dog for whatever it is I am training. If I am training the stay then I reward the stay. If I am training the release then I reward that. 

There are many ways to train something. Some are just more efficient than others.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJMac said:


> Do it really matter if the dog thinks he/she is being rewarded for staying or for releasing as long as he/she stays until the release is given?


Yes it does. These aren't stupid creatures. It's why a clicker works so well with them. They understand when they get the treat and what they did. So I want them to stay in a down. I reward the down and THEN I free the dog with "all done" or "let's go" and they do NOT get a reward at that time. Rewarding after the dog is up will teach the dog the treat comes in a position other than the down.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Yes it does. These aren't stupid creatures. It's why a clicker works so well with them. They understand when they get the treat and what they did. So I want them to stay in a down. I reward the down and THEN I free the dog with "all done" or "let's go" and they do NOT get a reward at that time. Rewarding after the dog is up will teach the dog the treat comes in a position other than the down.


*removed insults are not allowed* After treat rewarding 2-3 reps, I move to praise or mostly I just use body language to show satisfaction. I have pretty good results as well.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Well, I do both. I pay on the release to *teach the release* and I feed a little in position to reinforce it. But for me, release/reward comes first. Everything has a beginning and an end and its always anticipation of reward that gets the attention and focus you want, it doesn't have to create anxiety.


This is wrong. Its not teaching the release, Its rewarding for the completion of whatever.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJMac said:


> **removed*.* After treat rewarding 2-3 reps, I move to praise or mostly I just use body language to show satisfaction. I have pretty good results as well.



What? What was that for? What is wrong with you people that a person can't respond to a question you posted with information on how they personally do it without getting a response like this? Seriously.

ya know...don't respond. I'll just report the post


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> This is wrong. Its not teaching the release, Its rewarding for the completion of whatever.


Define "release". Is it a marker? I mark a behavior with a clicker or with a Yes! So if you consider Yes! the release then I do reward on the release. However, I reinforce the behavior I want such as an extended down by treating, moving out, coming back, treating and then release with a marker or simply by tossing a treat and telling him to Go. That way it is clear to the dog what I want. If he breaks before I mark or tell him to Go. It's a redo with no treats until he succeeds. I may have to shorten duration so he succeeds.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> What? What was that for? What is wrong with you people that a person can't respond to a question you posted with information on how they personally do it without getting a response like this? Seriously.
> 
> ya know...don't respond. I'll just report the post


Nooo wow I don't know what got into me (or my computer). Please know I apologize for the insult. Sorry. Please forgive me? :gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin::gsdbeggin:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DJMac said:


> Do it really matter if the dog thinks he/she is being rewarded for staying or for releasing as long as he/she stays until the release is given?


Uh... duh. That's what you're training. You're rewarding what you're training. If you're rewarding the release, they are going to start breaking stays because all they know to do is release.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Uh... duh. That's what you're training. You're rewarding what you're training. If you're rewarding the release, they are going to start breaking stays because all they know to do is release.


Not true! My pup stays in her down or sit or whatever until I say "free" which is my release word. Then she waits to see if you she's lucky enough to receive a treat or not. Clearly no method is the runaway winner here.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DJMac said:


> They are not stupid at all you are. After treat rewarding 2-3 reps, I move to praise or mostly I just use body language to show satisfaction. I have pretty good results as well.


Hahaha am I the only one that laughed out loud? It's like trying to have an intelligent convo with a 12 year old. 

Well I bet my dog could beat up your dog?!?!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DJMac said:


> Not true! My pup stays in her down or sit or whatever until I say "free" which is my release word. Then she waits to see if you she's lucky enough to receive a treat or not. Clearly no method is the runaway winner here.


How long has she known this command and how far, for how long, under what distractions?

I've taught owners to train hundreds of dogs, and I've yet to see a single one that knows what "stay" means without being rewarded for it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Define "release". Is it a marker? I mark a behavior with a clicker or with a Yes! So if you consider Yes! the release then I do reward on the release. However, I reinforce the behavior I want such as an extended down by treating, moving out, coming back, treating and then release with a marker or simply by tossing a treat and telling him to Go. That way it is clear to the dog what I want. If he breaks before I mark or tell him to Go. It's a redo with no treats until he succeeds. I may have to shorten duration so he succeeds.


 Close enough. Its not exactly, but as far as terminology goes, ok.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> How long has she known this command and how far, for how long, under what distractions?
> 
> I've taught owners to train hundreds of dogs, and I've yet to see a single one that knows what "stay" means without being rewarded for it.


Mine doesn't have a clue what stay means, but he knows not to get up till he's either released or heeled away and I haven't done anything to reinforce or reward that yet, other then say good. 

This all shows a good point. There's no absolutes with dogs. I don't think anyone was wrong about what they are saying. The proof is it worked, right?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Mine doesn't have a clue what stay means, but he knows not to get up till he's either released or heeled away and I haven't done anything to reinforce or reward that yet, other then say good.
> 
> This all shows a good point. There's no absolutes with dogs. I don't think anyone was wrong about what they are saying. The proof is it worked, right?


Saying "good" is rewarding and/or marking the appropriate behavior. That's not what I'm referring to at all.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Saying "good" is rewarding and/or marking the appropriate behavior. That's not what I'm referring to at all.


 Aren't you referring to physically giving a reward, like a treat? Good may to some degree be marking something, but there's no reward associated with the word. Encouragement, keep it up, that kinda thing.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Aren't you referring to physically giving a reward, like a treat? Good may to some degree be marking something, but there's no reward associated with the word. Encouragement, keep it up, that kinda thing.


No. I'm referring to rewarding a behavior. To some dogs, as in your case, a "good job" is rewarding. To some, a pet is. Just because it is praise, doesn't mean it's not reinforcing. I am referring to only rewarding after a release - that is not doing anything to reward for the stay or control position. Where you place your reward absolutely DOES matter.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> How long has she known this command and how far, for how long, under what distractions?
> 
> I've taught owners to train hundreds of dogs, and I've yet to see a single one that knows what "stay" means without being rewarded for it.


She is only 6 months. I'd say for about a month at the most. For as long as I need her to be still. Which is never longer than a few minutes. I didn't teach it as stay. I taught it as sit/down until you are released.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DJMac said:


> She is only 6 months. I'd say for about a month at the most. For as long as I need her to be still. Which is never longer than a few minutes. I didn't teach it as stay. I taught it as sit/down until you are released.


And you are not rewarding before the release, ever? It doesn't matter what you call it. I teach control positions, so my dogs learn the same way. But I teach them by rewarding them for staying there, before I release them with a "break" command. If I released them everytime and rewarded them for the release, the command would not last long. Since your dog has only been doing this for about a month at one minute, I am sure you will run into difficulty when you ask for this in a group of dogs, for more than 30 seconds, or as time goes on. 

She is learned that she is being rewarded for breaking the position. Rewarded behaviors are more likely to occur and ignored behaviors (the staying still) are less likely to occur.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not real big on terminology, but you seem to be blurring reward and reinforce DJ.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not real big on terminology, but you seem to be blurring reward and reinforce DJ.



I agree. If the dog is still in the command and you are verbally giving feedback without releasing, I would call that reinforcing. The reward is the hoopla at the end.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> And you are not rewarding before the release, ever? It doesn't matter what you call it. I teach control positions, so my dogs learn the same way. But I teach them by rewarding them for staying there, before I release them with a "break" command. If I released them everytime and rewarded them for the release, the command would not last long. Since your dog has only been doing this for about a month at one minute, I am sure you will run into difficulty when you ask for this in a group of dogs, for more than 30 seconds, or as time goes on.
> 
> She is learned that she is being rewarded for breaking the position. Rewarded behaviors are more likely to occur and ignored behaviors (the staying still) are less likely to occur.


You have a point. Initially, she was rewarded before the release but she would move after the release. That's when I decided to just wait until after the release if I was going to offer anything other than verbal praise.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not real big on terminology, but you seem to be blurring reward and reinforce DJ.


How so?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DJMac said:


> How so?


Oops, sorry. I meant DJ-Etzel.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Oops, sorry. I meant DJ-Etzel.


Lol okay.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Stay"" that's good!! Good stay!" Breaks stay" put back in position! Good stay" stay a few seconds" release" okay!
Love" pet. Always works for me " happy obedient dogs! Work out of site were you can watch out a window so you can put back when stay is broken. Good luck Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not real big on terminology, but you seem to be blurring reward and reinforce DJ.





Jax08 said:


> I agree. If the dog is still in the command and you are verbally giving feedback without releasing, I would call that reinforcing. The reward is the hoopla at the end.


Reward (verb) - To recompense or requite (a person or animal) for service, merit, achievement, etc. 

Reinforce (verb) - To strengthen with some added piece, support, or material: to reinforce a wall.

I use them interchangeably. Maybe I'm terrible wrong, but I don't see the difference? I don't do "hoopla" at the end, so I'm not sure what would be the difference between the reward and the reinforcer? Rewards for the dog are very often praise, petting, etc...



DJMac said:


> You have a point. Initially, she was rewarded before the release but she would move after the release. That's when I decided to just wait until after the release if I was going to offer anything other than verbal praise.


So what you did is teach her the criteria, then you changed the breaking point. She knows the criteria because she was rewarded for it. In the beginning, you don't want to call your dog out of the stay much because they are going to think *that's* what they're being rewarded for. If they fully understand what "stay" means (or your control position) then there is no harm in releasing them before rewarding/reinforcing the stay. They already know their criteria.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Reward (verb) - To recompense or requite (a person or animal) for service, merit, achievement, etc.
> 
> Reinforce (verb) - To strengthen with some added piece, support, or material: to reinforce a wall.
> 
> I use them interchangeably. Maybe I'm terrible wrong, but I don't see the difference? I don't do "hoopla" at the end, *so I'm not sure what would be the difference between the reward and the reinforcer?* Rewards for the dog are very often praise, petting, etc...


:shrug: Probably just the way we work it thru in our heads.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And that's why I generally avoid terminology and all the big words. They don't always work thru very well for me.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> So what you did is teach her the criteria, then you changed the breaking point. She knows the criteria because she was rewarded for it. In the beginning, you don't want to call your dog out of the stay much because they are going to think *that's* what they're being rewarded for. If they fully understand what "stay" means (or your control position) then there is no harm in releasing them before rewarding/reinforcing the stay. They already know their criteria.


I see what you did there.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its not a breaking point, and its not a control position. Its an active obedience that is taught with a beginning and an end. In between, a little random reinforcement here and there.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not a breaking point, and its not a control position. Its an active obedience that is taught with a beginning and an end. In between, a little random reinforcement here and there.


I believe you are looking into it too deep.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

As a newby trainer I think I'm doing excellent using these methods 

1) Use CRAP Consistency Repetition And Praise 
2) use the 1 second rule. Add 1 second a week on your stay or heel or what ever it is you wish to train. Sounds easy but in this logic in 2 years time you will have your dog in a solid down for 2 minutes with no problem, healing with you for 2 min 

This style also continues to challenge your odd as they grow. The crap also helps your dog effectively communicate with you.

Good luck



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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> As a newby trainer I think I'm doing excellent using these methods
> 
> 1) Use CRAP Consistency Repetition And Praise
> 2) use the 1 second rule. Add 1 second a week on your stay or heel or what ever it is you wish to train. Sounds easy but in this logic in 2 years time you will have your dog in a solid down for 2 minutes with no problem, healing with you for 2 min
> ...


Lol wow. That is a long wait for tiny results.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DJMac said:


> Lol wow. That is a long wait for tiny results.


Can I say I definitely agree with the "crap" idea? LOL

At a year old, a 3-5 minute stay should not be unreasonable if you're working on these behaviors regularly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not a breaking point, and its not a control position. Its an active obedience that is taught with a beginning and an end. In between, a little random reinforcement here and there.


It really is that simple.

I just like what you have to say.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Is it just me or is this being taken way to literally and over analyzed? I think so.

Difference between "reward" and "praise"? Yes there is.

Rewarding before or after the release? A matter of opinion.

Is this all THAT complicated? Not really.

Does every trainer use the same technique? No they don't.


How is the OP doing on their down/stay? That's what interest me. Not whether your technique is technically better than mine. If they both net the desired results, than neither one is incorrect except in the minds of the ones arguing about it.

I have a novel idea. Try both and go with the one that works the best for your dog and situation.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

it is complicated for people that want to understand how and why the techniques work. I'm one of them and it's very annoying to have people tell me to stop over analyzing


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not a breaking point, and its not a control position. Its an active obedience that is taught with a beginning and an end. In between, a little random reinforcement here and there.


I really couldn't put it any better. This is how I view it also.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

lalachka said:


> it is complicated for people that want to understand how and why the techniques work. I'm one of them and it's very annoying to have people tell me to stop over analyzing


For one, I understand your point about wanting to know how and why techniques work. I'm still learning myself, everyday I work with my dog, I find something that works better than what I was taught but not all the time. As long as it's not cruel to the dog, in my mind you should tweak and adjust your methods to keep the dog engaged while training. Having had numerous trainers with this single dog, you would be surprised in the difference in methods. 

As far as being annoyed by people telling you to stop over analyzing, I assume your response is pointed at me, it doesn't or shouldn't take this many pages to figure out how to teach this command. So pick a method out you feel comfortable with and go for it. If you have troubles or questions then come back and get advice. That's where I was coming from. The dog is not going to learn the command by someone reading ten pages of people going back and forth about technique. At some point you just have to do it. That's all I'm saying. Not meant to offend. Really.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Also another technique you can use is start with a sit or down command and reward and praise once they sit or down. Once you have worked this command and the dog is executing like they should, put them into a down and slowly walk around the dog and reward and praise if they execute it right then use your release command and praise. 

This way since your just starting out you stay in close proximity to the dog incase they come out of their down/stay, you can put them right back into it and if you choose to separate your rewards/praise between the down/stay and release you can. It would also allow you to use it for more of a time increase method and slowly graduate to distance and time and eventually out of sight and major distractions.

I have also used the walk around for stays. It takes them a few times to get the idea of what you're doing and what you're wanting.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> it is complicated for people that want to understand how and why the techniques work. I'm one of them and it's very annoying to have people tell me to stop over analyzing


If you really want to understand how and why training methods work, you have to study learning theory and behavior. 

I suggest the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training. All 3 volumes. It's a good place to start. 

David Winners


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> In this link I have step by step instructions on how I train stay: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/153300-training-stay.html#post2057182
> 
> As I mentioned in that post, Halo had the best stay of all the dogs in any of her classes.


I hope the OP reads the post I linked to, it has detailed instructions of how I teach stay, and since I'd already posted them on another thread I didn't want to type them out all over again.  

As I mentioned in the post, Halo was dubbed the "Stay Star" in one of her classes (in the 7-9 month old age range), and we were jokingly accused of making all the other people and dogs in her next class look bad because they were SO far behind what she was capable of. The instructor in that class would tell everyone to put their dog in a stay and go to the end of the leash, "if you can", and then she'd look at me and say something like "for Halo, go to the top of those stairs over there". :laugh:


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> it is complicated for people that want to understand how and why the techniques work. I'm one of them and it's very annoying to have people tell me to stop over analyzing


Had to chime in as well.....I'm one of those type as well....for a couple reasons...one, so as to be a better team mate...and two, because I find it fascinating with a twist of introspection. I would like to believe, the more I understand about my dogs....the more I understand about myself...if that makes any sense???


SuperG


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

DJMac said:


> Lol wow. That is a long wait for tiny results.



Id rather a perfect sit stay that I know lasts 30 seconds rather than a sit stay that lasts 4 minutes 90% of the time.

I can say my dog has never failed a stay. I will never set him up for failure. 
He is now at 30 seconds with distractions at a perfect stay. Can I get him to go longer? Ofcourse will I? Only 1 second a week. Always set your dog up for success.

Maybe if they dog was over two year old and I was training positive and negatively with an e collar I would I much longer stays. 





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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Dogs need to have some failure to understand what the entire criteria and picture is. You don't know how far to push a dog if there is no failure.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Had to chime in as well.....I'm one of those type as well....for a couple reasons...one, so as to be a better team mate...and two, because I find it fascinating with a twist of introspection. I would like to believe, the more I understand about my dogs....the more I understand about myself...if that makes any sense???
> 
> 
> SuperG


yep, those are my reasons too. want to understand him and it's just fascinating. 
and yeah it makes me understand myself a little better. 


David, that book isn't available as an ebook and it's expensive. the ebook is a deal breaker though, hopefully it's available some day.


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## DJMac (Jun 16, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> Id rather a perfect sit stay that I know lasts 30 seconds rather than a sit stay that lasts 4 minutes 90% of the time.
> 
> I can say my dog has never failed a stay. I will never set him up for failure.
> He is now at 30 seconds with distractions at a perfect stay. Can I get him to go longer? Ofcourse will I? Only 1 second a week. Always set your dog up for success.
> ...


Or you could just demand perfection. What's learning without errors? What's life without mistakes? Mistakes are only opportunities to learn, so I have no problem with mistakes from Sam. I make mistakes (step on her, trip over her, etc.) so it's understandable. I rather work 1 month with a 4 min stay 90% of the time, than wait 30 weeks for only 30 seconds. As she grow older she will be perfect.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

DJMac said:


> Or you could just demand perfection. What's learning without errors? What's life without mistakes? Mistakes are only opportunities to learn, so I have no problem with mistakes from Sam. I make mistakes (step on her, trip over her, etc.) so it's understandable. I rather work 1 month with a 4 min stay 90% of the time, than wait 30 weeks for only 30 seconds. As she grow older she will be perfect.



You tell a pup to sit stay, he says for 4 minutes and then it eventually gets bored and moves on. What has it learned?
Either reward it before it moves, or correct it after it moves. And when I say correct I mean uh uh or nope. After the age of 1 I would use a leash correction or e-collor.

Leaving a dog to move from a stay is a handler mistake especially with out a correction for it. 

We all have different training methods. Neither is right or wrong or more correct than another. This one simply suits me and is what "I" believe to be very reliable. 


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

In my opinion the sit stay and come are the two most important commands. They can save a dogs life of they are obeyed 100% of the time. 

They are two commands I train very very seriously!


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