# Learning submission problem



## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

One of the first things I did to start training with Sugar was to teach her submission. I did this by holding her to the floor on her side and not allowing her to get up. She put up a brief struggle, but quickly got the idea. Her personality is pretty passive so it was no big deal. She actually likes it now since she gets her belly rubbed.

I tried the same technique with another dog who is Sugar's playmate and about 7 months old. She is a rat terrier and basically out of control. I allow Sugar to play with the terrier since Sugar has weak socialization skills around other dogs while the terrier is the complete opposite. The hope is that Sugar would learn from the terrier. The problem is that Sugar is also learning bad habits from the terrier. So I decided to start training the terrier as well.

When I rolled the terrier on her side and held her, she fought as expected and eventually gave in. But the entire time she shook and quivered like she was about to be tortured. She never did calm down even though she gave up the struggle. I held her for 10 minutes hoping she would just relax and realize she wasn't being hurt. No dice. It looks like I have a nasty trust problem with her since she seems to be threatened by the handling. The dog has no history of abuse and is actually a bit on the spoiled side. Any suggestions?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Calipso Any suggestions?


My suggestion is to STOP doing this!

What you're doing will magnify any sort of trust problem and make it worse, not make it go away.

Forcing a dog into submission like this an unnecessary and psychologically damaging way to deal with the dog. Being a leader is being a leader, having the attitude of leadership, setting clear and fair rules and enforcing them consistently, teaching obedience, being in control of the resources. It's not alpha rolling or other displays of dominance. All those do is damage the relationship with the dog, causing fear and lack of trust.

The terrier is shaking because he's petrified. What you're doing is not something that another canine would do to another unless there was some major infraction on the lower ranking dogs part that needed a major correction. And then once the subordinate was put in it's place, it would be let up again and both would go back to whatever they were doing. It wouldn't be held down for minutes, or even seconds, on end. No good leader would do this out of the blue, just to do it. The dog doesn't understand it, and is frightened.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I agree with Chris, stop this practice on this dog and any dogs in the future.

There are a lot of things that can help this dog gain confidence. I don't want my dogs being submissive, I want them to do things because I have taught them how much fun doing things I want can be. 

Things like TellingtonTouch can help the dog relax so you can get the mind to a point where it can learn. Agility can build confidence when you get to the point that the dog trusts you.

Trust between dog and handler is very very important, you won't get that through your submissive excercises.

Val


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think that this could magnify any issues the dog may have with aggression. Onyx was 7 mos. and on leash w/ my 12 yr. daughter, she lunged at a 9 yr. old boy who came from behind her to pet her. I put her in a submissive position and told her "NO" held her there for about 10 seconds. She still has issues with small kids and I think I had something to do w/ it. I won't do that again to her, will work on things in a more positive re-enforcing way! It is too bad that my dog has to learn from my mistakes...


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Before I got my GSD I had a Jack Russell Terrier. Trying to roll the Jack Russell over on its side and make it submissive would cause precisely the reaction Chris and Wi. Tiger describe. 

Mine was peppy, sometimes seemed fearless and was intelligent. But, treating a terrier in that manner is a reputation for disaster.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Calipso
> When I rolled the terrier on her side and held her, she fought as expected and eventually gave in. But the entire time she shook and quivered like she was about to be tortured.


She WAS being tortured 




> Quote:She never did calm down even though she gave up the struggle. I held her for 10 minutes hoping she would just relax and realize she wasn't being hurt


She WAS being hurt, not physically, but psychologically




> Quote: It looks like I have a nasty trust problem with her since she seems to be threatened by the handling.


She IS threatened by the handling.




> Quote: The dog has no history of abuse.


Now she has.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I agree that the alpha roll goes against trust building, but some of you are being too harsh on Calipso.

She is here seeking advice on how to be a fair and respected pack leader, and is not intentionally abusing her dogs. She simply has recieved outdated and trust-shattering advice on achieving dominance within her pack. 

Offer advice, but I see no need to go on the offensive. And if you are upset by her post, then disregard it knowing she is now turned on the right path, especially if there is nothing productive about the reply. 

JMHO. 

Calipso, there are other ways to build trust and be a pack leader. Be fair and just. That is the first aspect of a leader. Also being consistent is very important in your training. 

Good luck.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why would you hold your dog down? try training your dogs. that submissive @#**!!! is garbage. you want to train your dogs not break them. get a trainer, go to puppy classes talk to the pros. stay on this forum it will help you.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

A tough and not needed way to deal with a terrier. They are so different from GSD's. Other breeds, including a German Shepherd pup will react differently, but perhaps that is a different topic.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

The roll was recommended by a professional dog trainer who trains a variety of breeds for search and rescue and for the military security. I have no reason to doubt his judgment and it does actually make sense. The terrier is uncooperative and dominative. So long as the terrier believes she's the alpha, it's going to be very hard to train her because she thinks she's the leader. The roll is a benign way of establishing who's the pack leader.

Getting her accustomed to the roll is also practical and even necessary. It's better to have her accustomed to handling now in a calm familiar environment than to fight with her at the vet or groomers.

I've seen the roll done on numerous occasions with no problems. I've used it on some of my more assertive dogs in the past with no problems as well. This is just the first time I've had a dog react this way.

I'm open to ideas on how to rid her of the idea that's she's the alpha without doing a roll. But I can tell you that she doesn't respond to commands or treats. I tried being nice. It didn't work. She requires a firmer approach. Suggestions?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There are many of ways to be the leader of our dogs that do not involve physically being 'dominant'. 

I love the book The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell. As well as some of these articles:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/attitude.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/leadership.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/relationshipbased.html


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Oh Calipso, we have given you lots of reasons to question the trainer's advise... It's bad advise. It's old advise. And, guess what?, you've admitted it isn't working... 

I think part of the problem you are having is that you think you should dominate a dog. There's an interesting book out there that I haven't seen referenced here in a long time "So your dog's not Lassie." This would probably be an interesting read for you because it discusses challenges such as you present. 

My experience with challenging dogs is that they can teach me a lot. I do have to be open to learning, though. If you do stick it out with this terrier and learn a new way to work with this dog, you'll be surprised with the results.

There's a way to build a positive relationship with this little dog. Force isn't it.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CalipsoThe roll was recommended by a professional dog trainer who trains a variety of breeds for search and rescue and for the military security. I have no reason to doubt his judgment and it does actually make sense. The terrier is uncooperative and dominative. So long as the terrier believes she's the alpha, it's going to be very hard to train her because she thinks she's the leader. The roll is a benign way of establishing who's the pack leader.
> 
> Getting her accustomed to the roll is also practical and even necessary. It's better to have her accustomed to handling now in a calm familiar environment than to fight with her at the vet or groomers.
> 
> ...


Not all professional dog trainers are truly knowledgeable about dog psychology. Especially in the military where they are about twenty years behind the times with all of their training methods. 

She doesn't think she is Alpha! If she truly thought she was alpha you wouldn't be asking this. A truly dominant aggressive dog who believes he is the leader and the strongest will not allow an alpha roll they will fight, they will bite, they will die before they stop trying to escape. If you can roll one of these guys at all it usually isn't without a price in blood. Even with a Jack Russel a trip to the ER is in the offing. Since you wouldn't be typing with the bandages on, she doesn't believe she is the alpha.

If she won't respond to commands there are only two reasons: She doesn't understand the meaning of the command or she isn't motivated to carry it out. Motivation is the easiest thing to work on. If she doesn't want food, does she want to play with you? how about earning a game of fetch? Your trainer probably won't allow you to play tug as he probably thinks it teaches the dog dominance but Jack Russel's will often do anything for a good game of tug. You could let your dog skip the meal before training to insure that your food reward will be worth more to her. You can try different food I have a dog that only works well for cheese, I have heard of a Boxer that didn't care about raw meat but would work his butt off for a banana, it is up to you to find what works.

If none of the above helps to motivate your dog (or your trainer doesn't understand what you are doing) and you still need help, you can motivate a dog to work using pain through a collar like a pinch or electronic trainer, avoidance of pain is a powerful motivator. This would to me be a last resort in training but its still a far more useful training tool to teach obedience than the Alpha Roll.

The most important thing you can do to get better obedience on the field is to regain her trust off of it. This is going to take a lot of play time and fun outings were nothing from you is negative. Without that bridge of trust though her work will never be as good as it can be.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Getting her accustomed to the roll is also practical and even necessary. It's better to have her accustomed to handling now in a calm familiar environment than to fight with her at the vet or groomers.


I don't think anyone here is saying that you shouldn't get her accustomed to handling. It's definitely important for all the reasons you describe. I think people are just debating that "dominating" her is the best way to do it.

Can you go over the reasons and behaviors she's offering that are causing you to think she's super dominant? She sounds more fearful.



> Quote: I've seen the roll done on numerous occasions with no problems. I've used it on some of my more assertive dogs in the past with no problems as well. This is just the first time I've had a dog react this way.


I'm wondering if that's not why. I know alpha rolls seem to make sense - I think that's why they've hung on so long but these days they really are outdated and were based on some wolf research that has since been discredited. That said, they don't really do any harm to a confident and comfortable dog - but neither do they offer any benefit. However, to a truly dominant dog you can get the situation Tim mentions. And in a fearful dog you can get a similar reaction. The dog thinks they're going to die - they're terrified! Even in wild canids, a subordinate is not necessarily going to roll over or give up food to a higher ranking pack member. A lot of what we think we know about wild canids is based on captive packs where other normal behaviors - like running away, were unavailable. 




> Quote: I'm open to ideas on how to rid her of the idea that's she's the alpha without doing a roll. But I can tell you that she doesn't respond to commands or treats. I tried being nice. It didn't work. She requires a firmer approach. Suggestions?


There are a lot of knowledgable people on here and I think it's great that you're open to other approaches. Can you maybe list specifically what it is that you want her to do and what she's doing instead?


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Hello Calipso,

I figure as much your training was based on professional advice. It is unfortunate, but it is normal for any individual to trust someone who is considered an 'expert' or a person of authority. And it is not uncommon for these professionals to be dead wrong. 

Don't feel bad, you are realizing there is a problem and coming here to seek it. 

Anyway, I personally like to suggest you invest in this DVD:
http://www.leerburg.com/308.htm

I am no spokesperson for this kennel, but I own this DVD on establishing pack structure, and it is incredibly informative & in-depth. I think it will help you understand how to be a packleader without any need of force far better than most written advice. 

Good luck.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Calipso, in my experience, the best way to establish leadership over a dog is to withhold whatever the dog enjoys most (food, affection, treats, play, etc.) and show it how it can work for you to obtain those things. You have to teach the dog that in order to get what she wants, she must respect and obey you. NILF really works, trust me.

First establish trust, then she will begin to respect you. The only time I've ever alpha rolled a dog was Sasha, who wanted to be a super bitch to any dog in her sight by attacking and pinning for the slightest perceived infraction. When verbal and leash corrections didn't work, I showed HER a super bitch alpha roll once, and she found she didn't like it. She accepted my position, but wanted to super-dominate the other dogs we lived with at the time, and I had to show her that was unacceptable. 

But she is my dog and I already knew I could do whatever I wanted to her and wasn't going to bite me. I'd never do it to a dog that was dominant aggressive to people, or that wasn't my own dog.

Good luck with the terrier


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

Jessica beat me to it, but allow me to second it, NILIF. I can't stress strongly enough how much better this would be for both you and the dog than the method you're currently using. Obviously, from the dogs reaction, alpha rolling him is not going to work and only cause a LOT of damage. I have yet to see a dog that NILIF did not work with and it promotes a positive, CORRECT relationship between dog and owner.

Here's a link 

NILIF


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, I've been doing some reading and there looks to be two rather different forms of the alpha roll. The first is the one proposed by the Monks which is completely flipping the dog over and throttling it by the throat. The other (the one I used) involves laying the dog on its side and restraining it by the shoulder.

I'm not really seeing how lying the dog on its side and holding it is really any different than restraining it at the groomer or vet. Fortunately, the troublesome terrier is only 11 lbs so it's no problem restraining her. But it would be nice if she would just sit there on her own.

I've since shifted to a new technique which involves cradling the dog. The dog soon tires of being held and struggles to be put down. I continue to hold the dog until she relaxes and then put her down on my terms. This is actually working out nicely. It doesn't threaten the dog and it establishes control. I've since noticed changes in her behavior. For one, the humping has nearly stopped and when she does do it, it's very tentative now. She tries to do it in slow motion to test the waters. A dirty look is all that's necessary to to stop the behavior. You used to have to pry her off. The good news is that she isn't becoming fearful of me. She's still quite eager to play and sit in my lap, and she is now taking notice of verbal corrections.

I imagine there's going to be a lot of controversy over the benefits or harm of establishing physical dominance. It looks like it's working out in my case. Your mileage may vary. It think it comes down to how you do it.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I struggled with this issue when my pup was going thru puppy kindergarden. The first red flag I saw in your post is IT WAS NOT YOUR DOG. There is no trust or bond between the two of you. Maybe if the owner did it but not you. I think it should be a bonding experience. Sounds like the terrier was terrorized. I am amazed his owner let you do it.


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## Devin (Feb 4, 2008)

yeah, I dont think putting the dog into "submission" is a good idea, did someone tell you to do that? That doesnt make too much sense to me, would you do that to your child?


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Devinyeah, I dont think putting the dog into "submission" is a good idea, did someone tell you to do that? That doesnt make too much sense to me, would you do that to your child?


Yes, she has stated that a professional trainer had advised her. She explained it quite clearly in this thread.


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## Devin (Feb 4, 2008)

relax...........I was just voicing my opinion, I would think even if a "trainer" told her to do this she would really use common sense when it comes to animals and putting them into "submission"


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_"The terrier is uncooperative and dominative. So long as the terrier believes she's the alpha, it's going to be very hard to train her because she thinks she's the leader. The roll is a benign way of establishing who's the pack leader."_

Being uncooperative has nothing to do with dominance! 
No, the alpha roll will not establish leadership, bc an alpha roll DOES NOT fall into the repertoire of dog behavior! Wild dogs/wolfs don't get alpha-rolled by their leader, ever! So how is a dog to undertand, that you're probing your alpha status, if he doesn't even know what it is? 
To alpha roll a dog can be seen as a serious life endangering threat by the dog. There's a very good chance that the alpha rolled dog will -in his way to defend for his life- attack you. If not, he will still be very suspicious and cautious of you later on, since you "are obviously nuts & threatening" for no apparent reason to him.



_"I imagine there's going to be a lot of controversy over the benefits or harm of establishing physical dominance. It looks like it's working out in my case. Your mileage may vary. It think it comes down to how you do it"._

I used to alpha roll my first dog, but it didn't "benefit" at all. I was told to alpha roll when the dog didn't obey commands. After a while she tried to attack me while/and after doing the roll, wouldn't come when called-or walk around me in a wide circle, very uncertain of what to expect next and you could clearly see she had lost all trust in me. It took me many months to make it up to her and I will never ever have a dog fear me again. 
Maybe terriers have a tougher skin, but i can imagine after you've alpha rolled him for some time, you'll likely get similar "results" as me. The dog will fear you, not because you're a leader, but bc you abuse him.

For your dogs sake, please read "DOMINANCE: FACT OR FICTION?" by Barry Eaton.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Please note, as I mentioned above, the roll technique I applied is not the same alpha roll technique originally advocated by the Monks which involved throttling the dog. The method I used just holds the dog on its side to demonstrate that you have physical domination. If you have ever physically restrained your dog to trim its nails, to bathe it, or to allow a vet exam, you've essentially done the exact same thing whether you care to admit it or not. Sooner or later, the dog needs to learn to relax when being restrained, otherwise vet and grooming trips are going to be a fight each time.

As far as the method being useful as a training tool, let me point out again that the she's already shown improvement. The humping has stopped and she is more responsive to the "no" command which she largely ignored before. On the flip side, I can hold her in my lap or roll her over at will with no problem. She's quickly learned to enjoy the attention.

Regarding the fact that technically, she's not my dog, let me give you some background: The dog was given to a family member at 5 months old (she's now 8mo) because her original owner was unable to give her the attention she demands. (Rat terriers are very high energy dogs.) Likewise, her new owner has the same problem with available time. I work out of my house so I see more of her than her other owners ever did or do. It's because of this that the task of reining in her behavior fell into my lap. I didn't really need an additional dog to train since I'm already working with my 3mo GSD, Sugar. But Sugar is learning bad habits from the terrier so something had to be done.

I have tried to use positive reenforcement training as much as possible. But there are behaviors that require scolding when caught in the act. The dog learned to ignore verbal scoldings ("NO!"), which gave rise to establishing the physical dominance. Now the scoldings carry more weight because she knows I can back up my words with force if necessary.

Could I have established dominance using another way? Yes with time. By controlling her food and access to her toys and such. But the situation required a more immediate approach because she is destroying furniture and doing dangerous things like chewing lamp cords.

Was establishing dominance even necessary? Well the proof is in the pudding. I've got better control over her now. And no, she has not been reduced to whimpering mass of fur. She's every bit as energetic and she's happy to see me and likes nothing better than to go outside and play fetch and chase the cat. She sits in the extra chair next to my desk along with Sugar at my feet, both happy as can be. But now she's finally on the path to learning there are limits which are non-negotiable. Despite the initial unpleasantness of the experience, she's going to be a lot happier and safer in the long run.

Would I ever use dominance as a training tool again? Maybe. Sugar had no problems with it, but she had been taught from the very beginning to allow it. The terrier didn't like it one bit. She had been king of the roost most of her 8mo life with very little discipline so it came as shock to her. I guess it really depends on the dog's current temperament and the severity of the behavior problems.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CalipsoPlease note, as I mentioned above, the roll technique I applied is not the same alpha roll technique originally advocated by the Monks which involved throttling the dog. The method I used just holds the dog on its side to demonstrate that you have physical domination.


To the dog, there isn't much difference between the two. Physical domination is physical domination, whether you throttled the dog to start the whole thing or not. However you do it, it is unnecessary and potentially harmful to your relationship with the dog.




> Originally Posted By: Calipso
> If you have ever physically restrained your dog to trim its nails, to bathe it, or to allow a vet exam, you've essentially done the exact same thing whether you care to admit it or not. Sooner or later, the dog needs to learn to relax when being restrained, otherwise vet and grooming trips are going to be a fight each time.


Yup... and it's MUCH easier when the dog trusts you and is comfortable with being handled and restrained than when the dog distrusts you and expects and unpleasant experience (and has that expectation confirmed as valid by your actions). To teach the former requires a solid, trusting, respectful relationship with the dog, which comes about through patience, time, and above all gentleness and understanding on the handler's part... not through force and physical domination.



> Originally Posted By: Calipso
> Was establishing dominance even necessary? Well the proof is in the pudding. I've got better control over her now.


Fear and force is a powerful motivator and can be used with any animal to instill "control". It doesn't take rocket science to see that, or to employ it in the name of training. But situations where it is the best way, or the only way, are very, very rare.

It's much more difficult and time consuming to gain control through respect and understanding. But the rewards are much greater. It's kinder to the animal, and builds a much better relationship.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

<span style='font-size: 11pt'>i think you'll find success if you start training and socializing from day one. train and socialize every day, 3 or 4 or 5 times a day for 5 minutes each session. when training, our boy is taught one thing at a time. once he gets it we move. sometimes he picks up 2 things at once. the socializing is all the time. i keep him in all kinds of situations and we repeat things. as far as acting up at the Vet, we take our boy to Vet when nothing is wrong. the Vet handles him. mock exams, petting and treats him. now when we go the Vet he just stands there and the Vet can do whatever. stay with the forum. the people here know dogs.</span>


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what does NILIF mean?????


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

"Nothing in Life is Free" it's a popular training theory. Google it and you'll get some good descriptions of it and techniques you can use at home. 

The basic principle is that the dog has to "earn" everything. You ask the dog to do a task (sit, for example) before getting food, treat, or even to go through a doorway.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_I have tried to use positive reenforcement training as much as possible. But there are behaviors that require scolding when caught in the act. The dog learned to ignore verbal scoldings ("NO!"), which gave rise to establishing the physical dominance. Now the scoldings carry more weight because she knows I can back up my words with force if necessary._

In which way did the dog "ignore" the verbal scolding? Did he look away? which would be considered a calming signal in doggy language. Why do you assume that dogs get the concept of a verbal scolding, if they don't even speak english. How would you react if I scream at you in a language you don't understand?- I assume, you'd look a bit flabbergast and didn't really know what to do, while I'll have to hit you over the head since you obviously ignored my command.







After a while you'll learn to offer me a behavior- just something, so I see you "got it"- to avoid the punishment, but it doesn't really mean that you understood the concept behind it.

I'm sad that you don't get the concept, that you don't need to be dominant over your dog in order for him to comply.

I don't restrain my dogs when they get their nails trimmed and also don't hold them down when they get a bath.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: If you have ever physically restrained your dog to trim its nails, to bathe it, or to allow a vet exam, you've essentially done the exact same thing whether you care to admit it or not. Sooner or later, the dog needs to learn to relax when being restrained, otherwise vet and grooming trips are going to be a fight each time.


I'm not sure why a dog has to be physically restrained to do all the above things? When they can be taught through positive means? Having a dog accept handling is a very easy thing to accomplish w/o much force! It's amazing what a handful of treats can do!

I work in a dog training/grooming facility and we teach a stand/pose command for handling.. Sure it might take a few weeks but once the dog understands the command, you can brush, dry off, clean the feet, look in the ears, put them in this command at the vets.. Makes everyone's job much easier.. AND it's less STRESSFUL for the dog..


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I can't see that being a good thing.

Submission is not about fear or force. It's about respect.


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## MacknCody (Nov 24, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Calipso
> 
> Could I have established dominance using another way? Yes with time. By controlling her food and access to her toys and such. But the situation required a more immediate approach because she is destroying furniture and doing dangerous things like chewing lamp cords.


How does the alpha roll help with this? Sounds like the dog needs more attention and exercise by the owner. Since your training this dog, are you also training the owners? Its not going to do much good if the dog knows to pay attention to you if the people don't know how to control it. 



> Originally Posted By: Calipso If you have ever physically restrained your dog to trim its nails, to bathe it, or to allow a vet exam, you've essentially done the exact same thing whether you care to admit it or not. Sooner or later, the dog needs to learn to relax when being restrained, otherwise vet and grooming trips are going to be a fight each time.


I don't have to physically restrain my dogs to give them a bath, take them to the vet, or trim their nails. I sit/kneel beside them and just hold the collar. Well, not Mack yet but we're working on it, the other dogs are fine though. 

Since your training this dog, are you also training the owners? Its not going to do much good if the dog knows to pay attention to you if the people don't know how to control it. 

As always, JMHO.


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