# Sticky  Movement



## SkyeGSD

Hey Guys!
On one of my email lists this video was posted and discussed, and I found very interesting. Tell me what you think! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0


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## Guardyan

Amazing, balanced movement!









Thought these might be of interest . . . 

VA Dingo Haus Gero stand photo:









Pedigree link:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/39.html


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## im4dogz

Wow, beautiful dog, such perfection of structure and movement!


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## lhczth

Isn't that great to watch? Fluid free movement. Just beautiful.


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## SkyeGSD

I agree!! I thought this video was pretty impressive! Filmed in 1983 I believe? I love how this dog is not overdone in the slightest but opens up beautifully on both ends. He is SUPER functional.

Any other observations/comments??

Some people have commented on a "slight kickup" in the rear, but I would say that would be nitpicking. 

Apparently this video was actually filmed on the cart of a train?


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## Chris Wild

Effortless, ground covering movement. Just beautiful.

What I find interesting is if one looks at the dog, and especially the stacked photo, his structure is quite moderate and functional. Far from extreme. And it doesn't resemble the current trends followed by many in either conformation ring (where striving for such movement is supposedly the goal).


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## LadyHawk

What an awesome mover.........love the top line.


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## Guardyan

I thought this was interesting . . . 

Check out the structural similarities between Dingo and another dog renowned for superb movement, Fanto vom Hirschel.

Dingo (VA1 1983)









Fanto (VA1 1990 & 1991)


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## hudak004

beautiful, I love his structure


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## Deejays_Owner

I agree Chris, today they would say his backhand the (croupe) should be a bit longer.
You would not find him at the front of the lineup at a Sieger Show now.

Deejay has a very similar top-line, I believe the standard calls for this.


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## lhczth

It would be interesting to see a video of Fanto moving like the one of Dingo. Fanto has more rear angulation though their shoulders are similar. I would not except the same balance of movement.


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: lhczthFanto has more rear angulation though their shoulders are similar.


Any way you can tell me how/where you see this?
_*Hoping to learn*_


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## Andaka

> Quote: Fanto has more rear angulation though their shoulders are similar.


I do not agree that their shoulders are similar. Fanto has a much shorter upper arm, which will restrict his front reach.


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## bedhogs

Id actually love to see videos like this of many tops dogs.... it gives you a chance to pick it apart in a way thats not possible at a show. Incredible to be able to watch it with such motion and detail,more people need to invest in videos like this


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## lhczth

Andaka, I agree. I was trying not to pick him apart too much.


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## lhczth

Barb, someone else will have to explain. I can see it, but I can't seem to figure out a way to describe it.


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## Guardyan

I just thought it was fascinating that two dogs renowned for superb movement and born 8 years apart, are so similar in type. Just as an interesting comparison, check out Rikkor, who was born 8 years after Fanto. 










Not so similar . . . 

Barb, the visual landmarks for hind angulation are the hip joint, stifle joint, and hock joint. In an appropriately stacked dog, the upper thigh will be vertical and the hock will be vertical. This allows the judge to accurately assess the amount of hind angulation a dog has.

I think the easiest way to explain the difference between Dingo and Fanto’s hind angulation is to look at the angle formed by the lower thigh (bone between the stifle joint and hock joint). See how Fanto’s lower thigh forms an angle slightly different than Dingo’s? Fanto appears to have a slightly lesser degree of angulation between the upper and lower thighs. In the dog world, this is labeled more angulation. For example, a dog with 90 degree hind angulation would be considered to have “more” angulation than a dog with 110 degree hind angulation.

Another thing you could try is to visualize the bottom of the photo as a horizontal plane and compare the distance between each dog’s stifle joint and the ground.

For reference, the SV standard calls for 120 degrees of hind angulation between upper and lower thighs. 









Hope this makes sense . . .


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## cliffson1

I have an hour tape of Fanto and have had it for about 10 years.(Yes I look at showlines too!!) Anyway, there is video of him and his personal handler going down a bike path offleash. This dog can flat out FLY! There is also video of him winning his second seiger show in which he starts from behind in the gaiting and just plain blows past the front dog in gaiting without ever double stepping. Fanto could flat out gait, I do't know about the nitpicking but on the Seiger scene TWICE he was better than everybody else. BTW, I also liked his bitework, it was clean and convincing without that look of uncertainly in the eyes. Very nice dog!!!IMO.


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## Catu

What I most like of the video is how straight looks the back of the dog, perfectly parallel to the floor and so effortless. Show dogs I've seen now frequently are so sloped that even in movement they look like a triangle.


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## Ocean

Very nice to watch if a dog is trotting straight ahead with its head in a straight ahead position. Looks good in a show ring and in a video.
I might be the first person in this whole thread which is going to say something negative...here goes...LOL.
From my experience, dogs with this much front extension on the gait do not change directions that well in a real working situation. In a way, they are too committed to going straight ahead.
Doesn't work that well in schutzhund; doesn't work that well in herding; neither in agility. all venues where dogs need to change directions quickly at times, as they do in police work and SAR as well.
This may be the reason why most working lines are criticized in the korungs as not having enough front reach or are too straight in the front but there is an excellent working reason for this!
This again may be a case of when "looking good" beats "working good".


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## Catu

Never thought on changes of directions... very, very interesting. Thanks.


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## Scarlett

I think a dog's lack of athleticism has less to do with a correct outreaching front than it does with lack of balance, poor ligamentation and bad proportions. A correct front, as exhibited by the dog in the video is in balance with the rest of the dog, he would not be able to move so well in the front if he didn't have balance in the rear, a correct and functioning middle piece and strong back. A total package that is in condition and moves correctly will be a dog who can and will change speeds, gaits and directions in a blink.


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## Ocean

I respectfully disagree. Of course, a dog that is in good condition and has firm ligaments will be more athletic than one who is less so, all things being equal. I agree with all of your statements about Dingo: balanced, strong back, correct middle. But if you have any background in engineering or complex systems, or have actually worked dogs in schutzhund and herding, you will know that you can not optimize on everything. At some point, every complex system makes a tradeoff; favoring one element over another. Some cars have excellent straight line stability on the freeway but do not have a sharp turn-in into corners. Anyone who has driven high performance cars knows this. You simply can not have everything. In the case of this dog, straight line speed and stability is favored in comparison to maximum manueverability. Personally, I will favor the sportscar over the limousine. But we all have different tastes. The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance.


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## Romance

<span style="color: #3333FF">The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance. </span>

Do not even go there Ocean. We have had the working line vs the show line argument a lot here, and most of the time the thread gets locked.
Can we not have a nice discussion without beating up on a particular sport or line of dog?


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## Scarlett

You are welcome to respectfully disagree. I don't believe one needs a background in engineering to appreciate the complexities of canine structure, they are not necessarily comparable. However, without understanding the mechanics (if you would like to use that word) of correct structure in the dog and how a well structured dog functions, an untrained eye will become accustomed to what is incorrect if that is what one most often sees, and if that incorrectness becomes the norm, the breed becomes less adept at it's overall abilities . It does not matter which function the dog might perform, if structured harmoniously and correctly it will be a dog who is quite capable and without suffering undue long term detriment to it's body.

The video posted should be watched again and again, to appreciate how a dog like this WOULD BE athletic and capable in any work or sport. Don't think for a minute that a dog this correct couldn't do it all.


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## cliffson1

If todays top conformation does not lead to top working a majority of the time then something is wrong with the equation; plain and simple! I'm not saying it is or isn't, everybody knows the truth, I'm just saying that correct form should lead to top function MOST of the time. Does it????????


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## Xeph

No clifton, it doesn't, but in the case of Dingo, I would say wholeheartedly that it does!


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## Nelly

> Quote:I respectfully disagree. Of course, a dog that is in good condition and has firm ligaments will be more athletic than one who is less so, all things being equal. I agree with all of your statements about Dingo: balanced, strong back, correct middle. But if you have any background in engineering or complex systems, or have actually worked dogs in schutzhund and herding, you will know that you can not optimize on everything. At some point, every complex system makes a tradeoff; favoring one element over another. Some cars have excellent straight line stability on the freeway but do not have a sharp turn-in into corners. Anyone who has driven high performance cars knows this. You simply can not have everything. In the case of this dog, straight line speed and stability is favored in comparison to maximum manueverability. Personally, I will favor the sportscar over the limousine. But we all have different tastes. The problem with show people is you do not use your dogs in high performance events, gaiting around a show ring is not high performance.


Agree with that, ...what they gain in the modern show structure, they lose out in other areas, in the ability to run and jump with speed in comparison with some other types...JMHO

I prefer Dingo to the ones you see today, he looks much less exaggerated but still....


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## cliffson1

Ceph,
We' on the same page though I also liked Fanto's working ability and his daughter Frigga v Silbersee had excellent working traits. 
Nothing wrong with good movement especially if it is balanced like Worls Seiger Marko vom Cellerland who was so balanced that his shortcomings still allowed him to be German and World Seiger.


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## wolfstraum

I think working ability has more to do with character than structure.

I have seen a nearly 15 year old VA female who has great desire for the work, will still bounce a bit attempting to do a H&B, and take a good full grip and a 4th generation male who is linebred on this female who shows very good working potential. Working ability is NOT lost, it is just not always as high a priority in some matchings.

It is not in breeding for specific structure the show lines lose the intensity for work, and many do have good drive for bite work - it is that attention to character and drive for work have to be addressed as a higher priority. It is baby steps to regain and making hard choices as a breeder, the same as we who do working lines MUST look at structure (functional, not fashionable - I am not advocating breeding a G bitch to a VA dog!). The best conformed pup in a litter may not have the best drive, and in fact, it may be one of the less perfect pups. The choice is with the breeder to sacrifice a degree of angulation or shade of depth of pigment to keep that pup with more desire/intensity in their program.

I have seen dogs coming from Fanto as well with good drives - 3rd and 4th generation even.

Lee


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## cliffson1

I agree with your post Lee but I am talking more about the movement of the GS in reference to correct conformation. The ability to start, stop, change direction, explosive propulsion,jump, or all the things that a good shepherd dog would have to do to manage 300 sheep or do the police work. The character is another component also, but do you ever see dogs that seem clumsy, or so long that the quickness is not there. To be correct conformation should show these attributes in abundance because they are the qualities that are needed to do work(herding/police) and thus should define the breed.


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## Ocean

I was enjoying an AKC show last summer, and saw shepherds which I thought looked and moved beautifully. Their handlers were wearing Nike running shoes and moved beautifully as well but shockingly looked more athletic than the dogs! I saw some handlers had to slow down to let some dogs catch up w/them in making tight turns! When you have a "working dog" breed that looks less athletic than its human handler that breed has a problem IMHO.


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## wolfstraum

sorry - I sort of went off on a tangent there!!! As far as economical movement, I think the smaller working GSDs are more agile and can still trot pretty well, if not as breatakenly "pretty" - I know I was driving a quad around the Kentucky Horse park and watching my working line trot at a solid 25 MPH for at least a half mile!!! Yet she was a whiz at twists, turns, jumps etc in agility. The bigger the animal, generally the less agile and athletic.

Lee


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## lhczth

bump to avoid pruning


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## DianaM

That is a fantastic and beautiful video. Now there is a flying trot to write home about! True perfection in motion.









EDIT: Is that VA Dingo in the video? If not, anyone know who that is?


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## Deejays_Owner

Yes, the dog is VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero, his hip production was not so good.
He was known for a lot of "Fast Normal" hips.
But passed on some of the best hardness and fighting instinct of any of the Great Show Males.


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## DianaM

That's not so bad if there were still a low incidence of truly bad hips. If he produced litters that were consistently fast normal for the most part with only occasional bad hips, I think the structure and ability and temperament he brought to the table would be well worth it, but again that is something that must be decided after much pedigree research and choosing the right bitch lines.

Does anyone know if there are any recent dogs that have Dingo in their lineage once or more that also retain his abilities? Or any kennels?


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