# training issues



## heather122 (Nov 6, 2009)

I put Sadie in the puppy classes at PetSmart when she was 9 weeks old. She started out great. We are now in week 6 of our class and she just isn't learning the commands. "Stay" is soooo beyond her it seems. We work on "stay" so much, I'm sick of saying it! I can walk backward about 4 steps before she gets up. Her max time for "stay" is about 15 seconds. Our trainer seems a little annoyed that she still doesn't get it. I've tried and tried, but I dont think she is going to get it anytime soon. The rest of the classes require her to know "stay." I'm at a loss. She was doing great and now its like she's hit a plataeu (spelling?) Any suggestions???


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

15 sec is good for a pup! Just keep working on it and ping pong her stay time when you train (13, 16, 14, 15, 12, 18, etc.)

Ike is a week older than Sadie. I think his best stay is like ... I dunno ... 3 sec.


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## heather122 (Nov 6, 2009)

She's very attached to me, so I'm not sure if she's afraid that I'm going to leave her or what. I always walk away from her but stay close in her sight. She just does not like the word "stay!"


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

She will get it ...just be patient









My boy was 16 months old when I took that class(I adopted him) and he would always lay down when told to stay. Never did get a sit/stay out of him there.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There is no "getting it" for a 15 week old!!! Everything they do should be fun, fun, fun, they can do no wrong at this age, they just don't have the mental capacity to understand "I'm doing it wrong". She probably has a lot of energy and is confused about this "game". Who cares what all the other puppies in the class can do. Who cares about the instructor getting frustrated! A good instructor should remain positive always, encouraging always, and find new training tips to help you past roadblocks.

My 10 month old puppy isn't all that great at "stay" yet. I set him up for success - I don't push him past what he can reliably give me, so he doesn't always break a "stay". If you set your pup up in that situation, always asking for more than what she will give you, and her always getting up, what she is learning is that after mom takes 4 steps, I can get up. Keep it shorter, stay closer, find new ways to work her, if instructor gets "frustrated", find a more positive, more supportive class, and go back to basics and vary it up like Jason suggested. 

Catch your pup being good. Take one step, come back and reward her but don't make her get up (I know, he will want to get up, get her back down again, and reward). Work on the stay when she is tired, and don't focus on it too much (boring excercise for a young pup). Throw in lots of other stuff to do so that it stays exciting and fun for her

My pup will eventualy have to hold a 20 min down with me 30 paces away with my back turned, for trials. I have no doubt that this can easily be achieved, but I will build him positively and gradually so that he is solid., and will not worry about it for a looooong while yet.


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## victoria_warfel (Nov 29, 2007)

Don't worry about it ~ you want training to be fun for your pup! 

When Jedi was 10 months old, we tried the CGC test, and part of that is staying. I would get about 6' away and Jedi would follow me. Every time. Needless to say she didn't pass at the time (but she did 5 months later). The trainer wanted me to try harsher methods, like a leash correction if she followed, but my thought was I would rather have my dog follow me. Why correct her for following me?! We cut back on stay for a couple weeks, and worked on other stuff. When we started up again, we did baby steps. She is now 3 yrs and wonderful!


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## Wayne Dodge (Jan 8, 2010)

Some of the advice so far has been solid, yet I would add another aspect. 

You are consistently reinforcing this behavior by repeating it time and time again with the same results, obviously the puppy does not understand what you are asking of it. Stop what you are doing and reassess the whole situation, come up with a new game plan that uses positive motivation and sets realistic expectations from your puppy. 

As far as the trainer, find a new one, any trainer who gets frustrated enough for it to be evident in their body language or expressed verbally would have nothing to do with a puppy of mine… period.

Remember that it is supposed to be fun, a puppy can not even begin to comprehend your expectations of it, they move at their pace not yours or a trainers.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

You said you can walk backwards for about 4 steps before he breaks.

This could be your problem. We walked backwards as a proofing exercise after the dog knew the command. Walking backwards was a way we used to teach come. When we did this test in class in Level 2 - most of the dogs came towards their owners, and these dogs knew stay, or at least they did in the controlled stay.

When you put your dog in a sit stay. Take one step forward with your RIGHT foot and stand in front of him, then return praise softly, release, and praise him as if he just did the best thing in the world.

Then step out two steps, etc.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have to agree with Mary on this one.

When teaching the 'come' we would face the puppy and then shuffle backwards. Calling out the puppies name and making fun, exciting noises to draw attention to ourselves, the puppy always followed (which is what you want).

For the stay command, we would always step to the side, step back - then click reward when he stayed. At 15 weeks old, you can't expect a puppy to stay for more than a few seconds as Jason pointed out.

I think teaching 'come' at this age is more appropriate.

Everything the puppy does, from eating, to playing to training should be FUN. This not only builds a bond between you and your new puppy but also makes the dog WANT TO LEARN in the future. If it's fun, they want to be a part of it!

I think if your trainer is getting annoyed or upset that your 15 week old puppy is not staying for more than a few seconds, then you need to find a new trainer who understands puppies better, JMO.

My trainer doesn't even work on stay until level 2 obedience. Level 1 is all about fun, socializing and bonding. Yes, we worked on commands such as sits, platz, and such but the focus was on creating the attitude to WANT TO LEARN.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Some puppies have more trouble with stay than others. I only introduce this behavior to pups and ask for a short stay, usually I am feeding throughout. I don't want to put a lot of stay pressure on a youngster. I wait until the dog shows me the maturity to begin to deal with this type of controlled behavior.


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## heather122 (Nov 6, 2009)

Mary- that makes total sense!!!







I will try this different when I get home! I may also try "stay" when she's already laying down and trying to nap.

I try to set Sadie up for success and I reward her for staying even just for the 4 steps. I figure, she's just a toddler and even human toddlers dont understand "stay" when the parent is walking away. 

We only have 3 classes left and I think we are going to take a break for a while. Maybe go through the class again. I just think she's too young to have to "be good" She is very energetic and training goes against all she wants to do at this time. She's a very smart girl, but I think she may be too young. (And to think that some people start their puppies in classes at 6 weeks- she barely knew her name then!)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Can you describe how they taught stay? That might be the problem. For one thing, you only work on one of the "D"s at a time - Distance, Duration, and Distraction. Only after she's mastered each part do you try to include one of the others. For example, she can hold a stay if you walk 4 steps away OR she can hold a stay for 15 seconds with you right there rewarding her every few seconds. You don't immediately jump to 15 seconds with you 4 steps away, and NEVER in a distracting environment! 

She is young and has a short attention span, but I think she's capable of "getting it" if you teach it right. I start facing the dog and back away rather than having them in heel position next to me and stepping away with my back to them. A couple of reasons - if the puppy is even thinking about breaking I can see it and stop it by leaning towards them (moving my body forward, into the dog's space, can make them move back, and is often enough by itself to cause her to relax back into the sit or down before getting all the way up) and using a negative marker ("ah ah"). It's much better to prevent a break than to have to put her back in place after the fact. Walking away from her with your back turned may encourage her to get up and follow you, so I work up to that - personally I think it's more challenging for a puppy who has the instinct to follow you around to grasp the stay concept under those circumstances, so that's more advanced. I WANT my puppies to follow me when I walk away from them. For an older dog that's less of an issue. 

First I take a step back with one foot and immediately step forward again, praise and treat. Take a step back with the other foot, step forward again, praise and treat. This was referred to as the "bungee" method when I first learned it because you snap back towards the dog like a bungee each time you step away. If she will hold the stay, do a few more reps, rewarding each time you return to her, and then release her. Keep the sessions pretty short. If she's still having fun, do another short session. Once she's like a rock with you just stepping back with one foot (this can be in the very first training session), take 2 steps back and immediately return to her, praise and treat. If that's no problem, take one step to the side, return, praise and treat, then the other side, then 2 steps, etc. By this time she she's probably starting to figure out that all she has to do is just sit or lay there and you keep giving her treats! 

Gradually work up to taking more and more steps away, still facing her at this point, and taking more steps to the side. Then try walking 1/4 of the way around her, then halfway around her, then all the way around her, from both directions. Each time you return to her and praise/reward. Release her at the end of the session, but do not mark or reward the release. End the session before she seems bored or if she appears to be getting frustrated. It's better to do a couple of very short training sessions a day with a young puppy than one long one. 

When you can walk all the way around her in both directions and back away from her the length of the room, try stepping away from her with your back turned. She may break - if she does calmly put her back in place and make it easier by just moving a foot around with your back turned, and then both feet before attempting to step away. Always return, praise and reward. Try it with her next to you in heel position rather than facing you. When you can walk away from her the length of the room with your back to her and she won't budge, try ducking out of sight for just a second before returning to her. Gradually, VERY gradually, work up to a few seconds out of sight. 

When you start adding duration, decrease the distance. Stand close and reward often, then release. Work up to longer time before the release but don't be predictable - you don't want her to anticipate and self release. Do 10 seconds one time, then 20 seconds, then 5 seconds, etc. Combine them by taking a couple of steps away, waiting 5 seconds, then return, praise and reward, etc. Gradually work on distance and duration together. When you start working in more distracting environments, decrease both the distance and duration and gradually work your way back up to where you were at home with no distractions. Practice this for 5 or 10 minutes a couple of times a day, and I guarantee she WILL get it! You can also add other stuff later, once she's solid - clap your hands, jump up and down, sing loudly, knock on the wall, run in a circle around her. This is how I trained Halo and she had by far the best stay in each class she was in. We were the envy of everyone in her Family Dog 2 class - truly, there were some snarky (but good natured) comments about how she was making all the other dogs look bad, LOL! Not only were her stays rock solid, I was doing way more advanced stuff with her than anyone else was doing with their dogs during the stay exercises.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

At 8 months, I am not very far away from my pup and don't have much duration either. It is just not a skill I push early. If you belabor this activity and create negative emotions around it.... problems can occur. I am currently helping a lady retrain the stay due to approaches that were used. I have seen a fair amount of poor stay training approaches. If you haven't done the bungee method described above, maybe they had you moving away too soon?

I have a goofy dog that has trouble with stay. I am teaching him to stay on a little elevated bed and then I take that bed every where we work on stay because he has an association with the little bed and the stay. He is a rescue but certainly over a year old. I am still taking this slow as far as distance and duration with him because a slow, positive basis eventually pays off better than one rushed or associated with frustration. He gets lots of food reward while he is staying. I try to build up a highly positive association with the stay. Are you getting lots of treats in during the stay? I begin the stay with the dog lying down or sitting and eating continuously and release when the food is almost gone. The dogs then really hope for a "stay" command because it is associated with nomnoms!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Another way to do this - especially if you are dealing with a pup or a dog that can't sit still - is instead of teaching a pup "stay" you backchain it and teach the pup his release word first. This was how it was taught to me and Dottie at her agility class and I think it's pretty good. 

The way we trained Dottie (who was completely wild and didn't know a single obedience command when we adopted her and she was already 2 yrs old) is I would play with Dots, get her chasing a toy (or food), tell her to sit or down, take a step back or walk in place, wait a few seconds, say "Yes", and as soon as she breaks position, resume playing/feeding - and then slowly stretch out the time or the distance (but like Cassidy's Mom said, not both) between command and release. 

So this way she sees stay as not as the termination of play but as prelude to more play (that is, if she follows the rule). That's what I'm doing with Ike. Like everyone say, you don't really want to force the issue with the pup right now. Stay is kind of a stressful exercise for the dogs so you don't want take the dog out of his comfort zone too far or too fast.


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomCan you describe how they taught stay? That might be the problem. For one thing, you only work on one of the "D"s at a time - Distance, Duration, and Distraction. Only after she's mastered each part do you try to include one of the others. For example, she can hold a stay if you walk 4 steps away OR she can hold a stay for 15 seconds with you right there rewarding her every few seconds. You don't immediately jump to 15 seconds with you 4 steps away, and NEVER in a distracting environment!
> 
> She is young and has a short attention span, but I think she's capable of "getting it" if you teach it right. I start facing the dog and back away rather than having them in heel position next to me and stepping away with my back to them. A couple of reasons - if the puppy is even thinking about breaking I can see it and stop it by leaning towards them (moving my body forward, into the dog's space, can make them move back, and is often enough by itself to cause her to relax back into the sit or down before getting all the way up) and using a negative marker ("ah ah"). It's much better to prevent a break than to have to put her back in place after the fact. Walking away from her with your back turned may encourage her to get up and follow you, so I work up to that - personally I think it's more challenging for a puppy who has the instinct to follow you around to grasp the stay concept under those circumstances, so that's more advanced. I WANT my puppies to follow me when I walk away from them. For an older dog that's less of an issue.
> 
> ...


I second what she said! Excellent advice, and what I do with my own puppies.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Here is a nice slow progression of stay training. I think classes often push too much too soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJqTtsfbhU&feature=related

I use a LOT of treats in stay training. Dogs love that stay stuff then.


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## heather122 (Nov 6, 2009)

Cassidy's mom:
We were taught to teach "stay" with Sadie in the "sit" position, but changed it to the "down" position because she was sliding on the floor. So, after she was down, we were taught to take a step back, regain focus and continue to walk backward and "try" to go forward before she got up. Sadie doesn't like this! lol. The next class focused on "down" position and "stay" walking a complete circle around the puppies. Sadie was not having one bit of this! So, we were taught to hold the treat at her mouth but not release it until our circle was complete. This only resulted in a confused Sadie and bloody fingers for me!

I will definitely try your method when she is done being crazy dog (jumping over the couch, chasing cats right now.) I like the "bungee" method. If nothing else, it reassures her that you will be right back with "candy."


The other dog in the class is a husky and is 2 weeks younger than Sadie. She learned the basics a little quicker than he did, but neither of them seem to be doing too well with "stay" so I'm wanting to say that she is just too young. I'm just glad to see that there are several others out there much older than she is that still struggle with "stay" it gives me encouragement that she will eventually get it and that I will just have to be patient and wait. 

Thanks so much for all the advice!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: heather122Cassidy's mom:
> We were taught to teach "stay" with Sadie in the "sit" position, but changed it to the "down" position because she was sliding on the floor. So, after she was down, we were taught to take a step back, regain focus and continue to walk backward and "try" to go forward before she got up.


Ah, I suspected as much - they're having you move WAY too fast! I would also teach a sit/stay AND a down/stay, separately. Do the sit on carpet or a rug (or outside on grass?) so she won't slide (I have the same problem, my dogs are longcoats so they have hairy paws and have a hard time holding a sit for more than a few seconds on our hardwood floors or the stone tile in the kitchen without their front feet sliding out from under them). I had a little trouble with them wanting to lay down during a sit/stay, so I had to work on that. They got the idea that they were going to hang out and not move for awhile, so I guess they thought they might as well get comfy, lol! 

I don't like holding the treat in front of her face while you walk around her either.







Especially if you haven't already spent a lot of time teaching her that if you hold food in front of her face she's to ignore it and look at you instead, which is something I like to do with puppies. How on earth is she supposed to understand? If she already has the idea that you'll take a few steps away and come right back to give her a treat, walking around her, as long as you work up to it gradually as I described, should be no problem.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Waaaaaayyyyyyy to fast!!! Is this a petsmart/big box pet store class? Honestly, the instructor does not seem to understand the importance of teaching skills and behaviors in small increments first. Second class and puppy is expected to keep a stay while owner walks around puppy - holy cow, that is an ADVANCED excercise!! Plus that she gets frustrated because because the puppies aren't learning this fast really has me wondering.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You've paid for the classes, so use them just to socialize your pup and don't let the trainer push you or your puppy.

If the trainer tries to take over or handle your pup, hold your ground.

At this age - and age - training should be fun. You should be the most fun person your dog knows.

I don't want to judge from afar, but trainer sounds like he/she needs a bit more experience.

Your puppy sounds normal to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

A great exercise that I like to do with puppies to teach focus and impulse control is this: It's Yer Choice, by Susan Garrett 

You'll see that in the video she's working with very young puppies. I used to practice this with Halo every day, she got most of her lunch kibble as training treats, and much of it was doing this exercise. This is not a "stay" exercise per se, it's actually closer to a "leave it" exercise, but there are no commands given, the dog learns that the right choice earns rewards, and I think it does help when you start training stay by building a foundation that calm self control is a good thing! 

Here's Halo at 14 weeks old in her second week of puppy class, staring at me intently (off leash!) in a room full of people and other puppies, with a piece of food on the floor in front of her:










By the time I added movement away from her for "stay" it was not much more difficult for her than something we were already doing a bit of each day.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That picture is just too cute!!! Good girl Halo!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I know, wasn't she just an ADORABLE little fuzzball?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Halo... what a precious little fuzz butt!!

So cute.. and a smart girl to boot!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: heather122I put Sadie in the puppy classes at PetSmart when she was 9 weeks old. She started out great. We are now in week 6 of our class and she just isn't learning the commands. "Stay" is soooo beyond her it seems. We work on "stay" so much, I'm sick of saying it! I can walk backward about 4 steps before she gets up. Her max time for "stay" is about 15 seconds. Our trainer seems a little annoyed that she still doesn't get it. I've tried and tried, but I dont think she is going to get it anytime soon. The rest of the classes require her to know "stay." I'm at a loss. She was doing great and now its like she's hit a plataeu (spelling?) Any suggestions???


I didn't have a chance to read all the replies but I've been reading Sheila Booth on my way home. Go get her book "Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition"

Listen to your dog not the trainer. Back up to something she succeeds at & be willing to tell the trainer to take a hike. What the heck. It's puppy class for pete's sake! It's not a bar exam! Training needs to be fun for you and your pup. It doesn't always go in the neat little linear progression humans want to lay out.

Give Sadie a break and have some fun. Remember to reward the successes ALL the time. Don't get frantic with the negatives, don't turn the command into a negative by getting upset. Remember IT"S PUPPY CLASS!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:Here is a nice slow progression of stay training. I think classes often push too much too soon.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJqTtsfbhU&feature=related
> 
> I use a LOT of treats in stay training. Dogs love that stay stuff then.


I really liked watching this. I was going a little too fast with Akbar and my ob instructor did it a little different so I'm going to start doing it this way. I really liked the results in this video. Thanks for posting it!


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## paladin (Oct 12, 2009)

I bought "Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition" by Sheila Booth and it's an A+ book.


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