# No means No - That's the basis of training



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

No biting
No begging
No chewing furniture or rugs
No barking
No pulling
No chasing the cat
No landsharking the kids
No slopping the water bowl
No eating random carp
No jumping on people

Once they know the word.... "No" sure takes care of a lot of problems.... but, only if you have established firm, honest and fair leadership. "No" is stop what you're doing.... but it always has to be followed by redirection and/or praise... That's when it becomes lifelong training.....


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I've somehow evolved the command for drop it (a single word) into a rather generic "cut it out".

I use it for: drop it, don't pick it up, stop it, don't chase the squirrel, get back on the trail, and more. Sometimes I wish people were this easy.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

"No" is a punisher or that is your intent anyways based on the fact that your purpose in saying it is to suppress or bring a behaviour to extinction.

Praise is only productive if the behaviour ceases and in many instances the benefits are neglegible when it comes to erradicating an unwelcome behaviour. 
Redirection has been proven to have very little effect on effectively suppressing a behaviour. The same goes for the common positive approach of training an alternate behaviour.
The most effective way to make NO or any other nuetral stimulis designed to act as a behaviour suppressor meaningful is to follow the word with a punisher. Failure to do so induces results that lack consistency and have minimal effect in overall behaviour suppression.

Ivan Pavlov and numerous other noted Behaviorists proved this in terms of both animal and human behaviour. 

Many trainers and "animal behaviourists" these days preach redirection or teaching alternate behaviours then have the nerve to call it science. There is not one piece of research that supports this claim nor can they ever point to one when pressed. There is however plenty of research to prove the opposite..even from the likes of Skinner who was idealogically opposed to punishment and prejeduced against it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors is successful in many ,but certainly not every situation.There are drives and instincts that require an outlet,not suppression.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> No biting
> 
> No eating random carp
> \


If you have taught your dog to only catch and eat the carp you tell the dog to catch and eat....well, I'm impressed..... this could come in very handy if one has a Koi pond.

Couldn't help myself ......


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> If you have taught your dog to only catch and eat the carp you tell the dog to catch and eat....well, I'm impressed..... this could come in very handy if one has a Koi pond.
> 
> Couldn't help myself ......
> 
> ...


Ha!. Actually Super G - I had the hardest time to train her not to eat her own carp.... Apparently she felt it was hers to do with as she pleases.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors is successful in many ,but certainly not every situation.There are drives and instincts that require an outlet,not suppression.


Boy, you got that right. Summer just went crazy on the squirrels again. I think it's mating season for them and there will be 4 or 5 in the yard chasing each other at the same time. She calmed down about them late last season but they've been gone and just come back and she's absolutely beside herself trying to catch one. No will never work with this, nor will redirection, but that's ok. It's a pretty harmless activity.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My dogs go nuts over squirrels too.I don't even try to call them off.It might be different if the darned things didn't go just out of reach and thumb their noses,lol!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> My dogs go nuts over squirrels too.I don't even try to call them off.It might be different if the darned things didn't go just out of reach and thumb their noses,lol!


lol Yea! and they moon 'em too! I saw it


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't know Stone - I've never really visualized or verbalized dog training as _not_ allowing the dog to do something. To me training is setting up the dog to do what I want (so think in positive terms, instead of NOT stealing food, training to wait patiently until he gets something, even if it is not what I'm eating, and even if he has to wait patiently until his regular meal. 

I'm just thinking back to my struggles with Keeta (hyper rescue with no prev. training), and the ease and flow with which Gryffon was raised and trained, and I just don't have a "No" mindset. It was about learning how to motivate Keeta to want to fit into the pack and follow my requests, and with Gryff, it was about managing his environment to minimize behaviours I didn't want, and rewarding the type of behaviours I wanted. 

I could of course do stuff like tell them Drop it, and they would spit out what they had, and they understood leave it - but I still see those actions as making a decision, choosing a behaviour, not as me being controlling: NO, you can't do this, NO you can't do that! 

I do use the word no, of course - but it is an indicator that my dog needs to make a different choice. 

I think if you have a plan and are a step ahead of your dogs so you can direct their actions so they make the right decisions, they don't even realize they are being controlled - they think they are the smartest, bestest dogs in the world who always do the right thing!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Interesting thought. I see things more as simply as positive or negative. It's the basic motivator for all living things - well, even computers only have 0 or 1.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors is successful in many ,but certainly not every situation.There are drives and instincts that require an outlet,not suppression.


Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors do not suppress existing behaviour. 
If you want to promote instinctual behaviors that is a different conversation. 

Proof is wonderful...science and my actual experience has proven this time and time again. I can quote sources and examples. Can you?

My puppy bit me so I give him a tug. Now he doesn't bite me anymore...or wait..lol.

My puppy bit me and I corrected him ergo his prey drive is suppressed and will have no natural outlet...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I always get the idea these discussions come down to how people apply the terminology more then the actual training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Proof is wonderful...science and my actual experience has proven this time and time again. I can quote sources and examples. Can you?


I'm sure everyone can - a little google search and anyone can find articles, blogs and advice from experts and non-experts alike, and have personal experiences to relate that may be completely counter to the personal experience of another person, to support whatever position they take. 

But this isn't about who is right and who is wrong - it is just some musings and an attempt to organize some thoughts on raising a well-behaved dog. 

Steve, completely agree. The way I read the "Using NO as a basis for training" statement, is using aversives as a basis for training. We recently had a discussion on using aversives when one member was promoting bonking a puppy on the head to "train" the puppy.

A discussion between what is training and what is aversives ensued. Sure I use aversives - I use "No" regularly too - but as a basis for training? That is a whole different discussion, which is what this thread is all about (I think . . . if I'm following what the OP is saying).


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors do not suppress existing behaviour.
> If you want to promote instinctual behaviors that is a different conversation.
> 
> Proof is wonderful...science and my actual experience has proven this time and time again. I can quote sources and examples. Can you?
> ...


As Steve said,we are just coming at things from a different angle.If puppy bites you shut it down.Then shortly after you teach an alternative behavior,the tug.If you do it wrong you inadvertently teach puppy to bite you in order to get the tug.
There are things that have to suppressed.Chasing cars is another example.All I'm saying is provide another outlet.

Samson gets amped up at the door more so than the other two.He will jump around and bite playfully(obnoxiously) me and the other dogs when released from a stay to go out.I leave a ball in the yard for him to find now.He's still excited but he'll shoot off and search for his toy...an alternate behavior.He redirected his enthusiasm.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't understand the concept that using the word "No" always has to be accompanied with some form of punishment. That's like saying that a dog cannot understand that simple communication and cannot learn from simple communication. Effective communication does not have to be followed with a positive or negative reinforcement forever (guess why).

When I say No to something it only pertains to that specific something. She still has free choice to do other things - chew on her bone, wander outside or climb up in her favorite chair or play with her squeek ball. I'm not punishing her and wrecking her day because I said no to one thing. This is not redirecting her to another specific thing (like go to your spot or sit stay) but just not to do that one thing. IMO it's much less restrictive as she still retains multiple choices. 

I guess I could say "Please redirect your activity and make a better choice next time". Or I could just pick up something and throw it at her every time. But for me, the word "NO" seems to work with her. 

It was just basically musings stemming from the fact that we are well into "mud season" here and it's been a long winter. I found myself saying No to her a lot lately and just stopped to look at how I was using it to control, redirect,train her behaviors during this time of extreme cabin fever.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its not as simple as it has to be. When you have 2 competing desires, chase the squirrel or play with me, no may have to mean more then make the right choice. Her idea of the right choice may not match yours, so no has a lot more effect if she relates it to a consequence. 

There's a lot of things you can train with a dog making choices. If you do this, you get that. But you have to be prepared for them to make wrong choices and when it really matters, knowing they'll get corrected may be the difference.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I try to use negative markers as little as possible, usually, an Eh or Eh-eh, and then repeat command whatever I am training. 

Most of the stuff at home, is management moreso than training. But if a puppy starts chewing on my boot, it's Eh! followed by MINE, I take the boot away, give them something of theirs and say YOURS, then I follow that with "leave my boot alone, I can't believe you would do such a thing..." all the way back to where my boot was and belongs. Mostly, though I keep stuff out of reach of the puppy, and set the puppy up to succeed and praise it for doing so. The moment the puppy get's interested in the trash, "eh-eh, mine" coupled with the stink eye, and the pup moves onto something of their own, and keeps a wide berth from the trash can.

Dogs are actually pretty easy to manage. Rarely do we have to go so far as to punish them. It is we who have to be trained to pay attention to the puppy, train the puppy, be consistent, put our crap away where the puppy can't get it and so forth. If a puppy steals a steak off the counter top, well shame on you. The dog is just a dog, an opportunistic predator/scavenger. We can train them to never consider stealing meat off the counter, or we can just put the steak in the fridge before heading off to the bathroom for 20 minutes. Teaching a pup not to counter surf is a whole lot easier if it doesn't find free access to steak there.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

In my limited experience....tone makes a big difference....."yesssss" my positive verbal marker has such a different tone and feel to it than my "no" ....dog knows the difference but if the dog chooses to disregard my "no"...I feel there has to be consequences. I don't use "no" all that often as it is too general and not always associated with a specific behavior except as a negative verbal marker. A couple of trainers I worked with suggested that once a dog knows the behavior and has sufficiently displayed its ability to adhere to the command.... whether it is a "no" or any other command which the dog knows... the first time a "no" or other command is given is the "freebie"...if the dog fails... any additional repetition of a previously given command comes with a consequence since the dog has not obeyed. There were a few exceptions where no "freebie" was given....first time of noncompliance came with a consequence.

I think the trappings of using a catchall command like "no" is it is too broadly used at times hence my earlier thought regarding tone....it does work to convey to the dog that what it is doing is unacceptable but it is more in the tone that one's dog reacts to...not so much the specific word "no".

SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I absolutely agree Steve. I use the prong on walks because we are on a busy street and her minding me to keep her safe requires restrictions. I do issue corrections when needed.

Also, if she has gotten into something that can harm her or simply is over stimulated and No simply does not work - lol I pull out the big guns and use the words "Bad Dog". I use this rarely so get a good response. It's not the words - it's what's behind the words learned from past experience. Everything stops and she gets confined to a room for a while - every single time. That's the punishment and she hates it because I am outside and she is not with me. 

I am just voicing thoughts from my pet owner's view. The type of training that gets compliance every time in life and death situations - I understand is radically different than anything I will ever need to adopt. I don't think anyone here would say that proper training for the LE or the military dog could be accomplished without many methods that the average pet owner would be reluctant to sign up for. IMO a dog trained in that way, at that level "loses" something of himself and it is replaced with something else. Choices and freedoms are lost but the fill in is feeding the junkie drive that dog has - which gives it's own type of rewards. Not something the average pet owner is seeking.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Here's the thing. I think pet dog training has greatly suffered from the loads of misinformation spread and propogated by certain popular trainers and behaviourists that is driven by a strange human idealogy that makes no sense from theoretical scientific standpoint or a practical one. The cherry on the cake is that this ideology is presented as some sort of science when infact there is no conclusive research to back it.
Then we get it through the local trainers and breeders who then regurgitate it to pet owners who in turn often regurgitate said info to other dog owners.

Then when people who know better disagree, the truth becomes distorted through the bickering.

Bottom line, this nonsense has cost many a dog his/her life. It has cost owners uncountable amounts of money, stress and wasted time in ineffective training.

This is not some sort of voodoo or magic where everyone can just make up a story in their head, propogate it and next thing you know a new training theory is born.

This is not new stuff. When I speak about research I am not talking about google or some inane article Victoria Stillwell wrote, I am talking about guys like Skinner, Pavlov, Thorndike, Van Hoten etc. Its all there folks, there is no mystery. The science of behavior and the effect of reward and punishment on it have been studied extensively. 

Behaviorists like Skinner did their best to prove that undesirable behaviours could be changed or suppressed through means other then punishment. He and all the others have so far failed.


I look at many of the comments above and what I see is a fundamental lack of understanding in how dogs think and the effect of reinforcement and punishment on behaviour. People talk about not punishing their dog when infact thats exactly what they did. The same goes for reward. 

In dog training consistent, reproducible and reliable results are what is important. 

Nature gave people and animals the ability to feel pleasure, pain, happiness and fear. These sensations / emotions are all mechanisms of survival. They are necessary to the healthy development of a young organism and give meaning to the world around us. They are not inherently good or bad. Avoiding the use of any one of these or making it out to be some terrible option of last resort is foolish and removes an important avenue of communication you have with your dog. More importantly that your dog needs!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

To be honest I don't know why it bothers me. The continued confusion suffered and propogated by most mainstream pet training and dog owners consistently puts money in my pocket. I should probably just quiet down before I talk myself out of a job..lol.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Nature gave people and animals the ability to feel pleasure, pain, happiness and fear. These sensations / emotions are all mechanisms of survival. They are necessary to the healthy development of a young organism and give meaning to the world around us. They are not inherently good or bad. Avoiding the use of any one of these or making it out to be some terrible option of last resort is foolish and removes an important avenue of communication you have with your dog. More importantly that your dog needs!


Spoken like a true Zen monk, er, i mean Dog trainer...lol


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

So applying the science backed understanding of punishment my question is: once a dog who has aggression/reactive issues has been worked with using only collar correction and successfully learns to change behavior to a more relaxed behavior, has the dog been taught that no collar correction (punishment) is the reward?

This would be assuming that no other positive (treat or touch etc) is offered after the punishment?

I am in this w/my dog now. Went back to his trainer who is helping me. Uses collar correction and am seeing more progress. I just would like to understand how my dog is processing it.

I just a 1st time gsd pet owner. I do use positive reinforcement a lot to shape new behaviors and in a perfect world would choose to use it exclusively as the dogs happy response is a very strong human behavior reinforcer. But his unacceptable behavior needs to be well managed in order to allow him the opportunities to do the things he loves to do. 

Posts and conversations like this one are immeasurably helpful.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I am in this w/my dog now. Went back to his trainer who is helping me. Uses collar correction and am seeing more progress. I just would like to understand how my dog is processing it.


On the corrections,hopefully he's thinking "Holey,,,,,,, I'm not doing that again" and when he does what you want and it leads to something good, he thinks "Hey, I like that, lets do that again" They're a lot simpler then all the studies make it sound.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There was that person who had a melt down with her GSD on Christmas Day. She had previously sent her dog to boot camp training. When the dog was delivered to her door upon completion of the course her friend asked why the trainer kept moving his large set of keys around the dog's head. His reply was "because if he doesn't mind he gets this" and struck the dog in the head with his hand and key ring......

It's fine to believe in whatever type of training that works - however with professional trainers supporting physical corrections and not mentioning that they must be done properly and fairly is just giving some novices justification to start beating on their dog. Animal cruelty is real and often results from frustration and improper training. If you advocate for this - I hope that each and every time you insert a disclaimer so you don't become part of the problem instead of a help. 

The minute you hold yourself out as a trainer here - IMO you also bare the extra responsibility of being very careful about your statements. Any possible way you can imagine that is wrong can be picked up and run with because "a trainer on this site suggested it".


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> On the corrections,hopefully he's thinking "Holey,,,,,,, I'm not doing that again" and when he does what you want and it leads to something good, he thinks "Hey, I like that, lets do that again" They're a lot simpler then all the studies make it sound.


That's it in a nutshell. 
There is nothing wrong with positive reinforcement or a reward in layman's terms. It's just as essential as a punisher. When you can apply both effectively to a behavior or complex chain of behaviors that's when you see a dog pick thIngs up faster then you would believe.
Your dog is punished for barking at other dogs.
The barking was likely rooted in instinctive behaviors that elicited a strong reaction in him.
Could be fear, excitement, aggression whatever.
Regardless he was satisfying that need through barking.
By adding an unpleasent consequence to that behaviour you are removing his incentive to repeat it and therefor make it less likely to occur again.
By rewarding an alternate behaviour like silence or sit or whatever you make that alternative more attractive and thus more likely. 
Both a punisher and reward are valuable in this instance.

Now to teach your dog to spin in a circle or go to his kennel a punisher would be counter productive. But used in the context of reinforcing one of those commands once taught it again becomes valuable.

It's simple but not and the learning never ends.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I have to say, mighty fine post. Well said. :thumbup:



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here's the thing. I think pet dog training has greatly suffered from the loads of misinformation spread and propogated by certain popular trainers and behaviourists that is driven by a strange human idealogy that makes no sense from theoretical scientific standpoint or a practical one. The cherry on the cake is that this ideology is presented as some sort of science when infact there is no conclusive research to back it.
> Then we get it through the local trainers and breeders who then regurgitate it to pet owners who in turn often regurgitate said info to other dog owners.
> 
> Then when people who know better disagree, the truth becomes distorted through the bickering.
> ...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There is a lot of misinformation out there,agreed.Classical and operative conditioning is ignored by tv and internet personalities to the detriment of dog owners struggling with problems that they end up making worse.
But there are actually some behaviors that can be changed without punishment by simply creating a new habit.Redirection and counter conditioning does work in many situations.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> But there are actually some behaviors that can be changed without punishment by simply creating a new habit.Redirection and counter conditioning does work in many situations.


True. Example; I've trained my dog to alert and bark on command. She's learning and sometimes she will bark inappropriately but she always looks to me for direction. If I physically punish her for barking at the wrong time - it's very likely to shut her down on barking at the right time also. 

A simple No or Hush - works while not dampening her willingness to bark when I want her to.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Stonevintage, I agree. Care must be taken and a lot of research and thought put in before choosing a trainer, applying negative reinforcement and especially handing your dog over for boot camp training. My own preferance, work w/the dog while working w/the trainer. That way not only do you get to watch a pro and his/her body language w/the dog but you also get to observe the dogs body language w/the pro. 

I can only offer info through my own experiences. My very first trainer when Sonny when he was only 12wks should have been...well, won't say it. After that I was lucky to have found a professional with years of experience. I also am very selective of what and how I apply any method I have learned/read via net. This is why these calm intelligent discussions are so important to us newbies.

Steve, Sonny absolutely did do the "holy cow" better pay attention. and after the session he was given appropriate positive reinforcement. But not while he was being worked close to other dogs by the trainer or myself. 

This is where I had been failing while I was trying to help Sonny on my own. He's darn smart and not a soft dog so when he would do that shepherd stare (precursor to aggression) I was collar correcting, he would ease up and look at me, reward was given and he would go back to staring.....rinse repeat. 

Now his reward comes only after successfully walking by other dogs with full compliance and the reward is loose leash so he can use his nose.

I think what may also be hard for newbies as it was for me is really recognizing what the dog truly values as reward. In his case free time to sniff. Took me awhile to figure out that I should use it to both our advantage.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The concepts are simple, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily easy. As one of our trainers said (Lisa Maze, Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel), in dog training there are a lot of moving parts! 

I think there's a different between behaviors that are self reinforcing and those that are not. A behavior that is not inherently reinforcing to the dog will eventually extinguish if he does not continue to be reinforced for doing it. Often, we inadvertently reinforce behaviors. An example is pushy attention seeking behavior. Looking at the dog, talking to the dog, telling the dog to stop, are all rewarding the dog with our attention, exactly what the dog is trying to get. It's working, so we have inadvertently reinforced a behavior we're trying to stop. A combination of NEVER rewarding that behavior and consistently giving attention when the dog is _not_ barking at us, or jumping on us, or some other obnoxious thing, will extinguish the behavior because it's no longer working, polite behavior is now working instead. Dogs aren't stupid. They're opportunists, and they are very good at learning associations - I do _this_, and this happens. I do _this_, and that doesn't happen, something else does. They figure out what works and what doesn't.

Behaviors that are self reinforcing will not simply extinguish because they aren't reliant on reinforcement from us. A dog likes to bark out the window at squirrels in the yard. It's fun, so the dog will keep doing it unless we do something to make it stop. Teaching an alternate behavior won't work because there's nothing more fun than barking at squirrels. Punishment can help and so can managing the environment to prevent the dog from having the opportunity to practice the behavior, such as by blocking the view to the yard. And the longer a behavior is allowed to continue, the harder it can be to stop, because there's already a history of reinforcement for practicing the behavior.

As far as "no" goes, that's perfectly fine if all you want is for the dog to stop whatever they're doing. Chasing the cat? Sure - knock that off right now! Sometimes there's something we'd rather the dog be doing, so we want the dog to stop doing that _and_ do this instead, like sitting politely to greet people rather than jumping all over them. That's where training an alternate behavior can be helpful. Sitting = person approaches or the dog is allowed to approach the person. Getting excited, breaking the sit, lunging forward on the leash in an attempt to get close enough to jump = person remains in place and the dog is not allowed to greet. Obviously, punishment for jumping can also be used, and might work faster. Training an alternate behavior can take patience, but the dog will learn that if it wants to greet people there's only one way that will work to make that happen.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

So if I tell my dog "No" and he or she ignores the "No" what should be the next step ?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Depends on whether the dog even knows what "no" means or is supposed to do when you say 'no"....gotta be fair to the dog before any negative consequences are levied.....in most cases.


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lots of good insight here from everyone. I do know that there are several ways to maintain the leadership position. Many - yes, do take longer but can be accomplished without striking the dog or applying other forms of physical punishment. She knows what "No" means.

She knows when I'm not pleased with a behavior. She also knows when everything's good and I am very happy with her behavior. That's simple stuff.

The hard part is restricting or redirecting her "more pronounced" natural drives. This, in my dog's daily life only presents itself to be a problem in two areas. One, the squirrels in the yard and two - her aggression to other dogs. The squirrels, I am confident that she will soon lose interest in as she did last Summer.

Her charging out the back door and barking up the neighborhood every morning I recently solved thru redirection. I simply grabbed a few pieces of kibble and threw them out the door just before I open it all the way to let her out. She stops to eat that and though the run will still happen - no more barking because the few seconds eating the food broke the "over excited" cycle and over the period of two weeks, broke the habit.... 

As I mentioned, I use the prong on walks. This because I'm placing her in an environment that is not controlled,could be dangerous and she gets too ramped up at this time to trust. A simple "No" or redirection will not work in these situations with her. Compared to the other 4 GSD's I have owned - this one would require pro training to ever get her reliable off leash. There's no way I can afford that, however being off leash is not something that I need with her. 

I just can't adopt the method that every little mis-step by a pup needs to be followed with a physical correction. It's just not needed in many situations, though is needed in some - those were not on my list. lol


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stone...I see what your saying or is that I hear what you're seeing ?

Seems to me, once a dog knows what it should do...it gets a chance to make decisions...and the decision many times is based on the outcome...reward vs punishment...might be too simply put but basically its choices. I'm of the belief that a dog will do what it knows it "shouldn't do" at times because the gratification it gets from doing the wrong thing outweighs either/both the reward or punishment dealt by the human. So, dependent on one's dog, the choice for the dog has to have either a hefty enough reward or negative consequence to match the level of obedience or lack of....I think this is pretty much what you are saying.



SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love my dogs. 

In fact, when Babsy begs, it is so cute...

And when she takes the tidbit (reward for begging) gently from my fingers, she rolls her eyes back just before she takes it and it is so cool. Even the girls like to watch her eyes when they give her treats. 

So the No Begging rule wouldn't go far here. LOL. 

The more experience you have, the less you need negatives/punishment. If you nip a behavior the moment the dog first thinks to do that, often the correction is slight, dog gets, it, and you don't have a nine month old puppy jumping on grandma, or a 15 month old puppy dragging you down darting after squirrels, or a 12 month old dog counter surfing. 

Good management and actual house training -- it's a lot more than pottying outside folks -- eliminates the need for a lot of the behavior elimination that people are thinking they need to correct for physically. 

Believe it or not, it works for 18 month old or 3 year old dogs that are acquired at that age, too. The first few weeks with the dog, you let them know by your word and actions, what the house rules are, and it isn't all that hard for them to fall into step. Of course, if you are a push over, well, the dogs will get that too.

Giving a correction to a dog that lets them know that something won't be tolerated, I have no problem with that. In fact it is more humane than trying to re-direct with treats or whatever, allowing the dog remain in a state of confusion about the rules for a longer period of time, sometimes being able to do a thing, and sometimes not, etc. But, I would guess 95% or more of all dog training issues are actually people training issues. Is it really fair to clock a dog when the reason it is acting like a nut is because it has been getting confusing signals from it's owner for months? Discipline in dog training is a must. People need to be disciplined. They need to be consistent. They need to stop nagging. They have to reward behavior they want and NOT reward behavior they do not want. They need to have realistic expectations. They need to train the dog. 

The reason most trainers I know tell people to stop using the word, "No" is because people have used it to such and extend with the dog, without any follow through, that the dog is effectively tuning it out, not because they do not believe in correcting dogs.

It is possible that in my little backward corner of the rural Midwest, I just haven't come across the insanity that some of you say is out there though.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> True. Example; I've trained my dog to alert and bark on command. She's learning and sometimes she will bark inappropriately but she always looks to me for direction. If I physically punish her for barking at the wrong time - it's very likely to shut her down on barking at the right time also.
> 
> A simple No or Hush - works while not dampening her willingness to bark when I want her to.


Then the behaviour was not strong or as already mentioned minimally self satisfying. 
In addition if no or Hush reliably stops the behaviour then you are punishing the dog .

Punishment for every dog is different. I hit my current dog with a whip during training and crack it often. For many dogs this would be a huge suppressor. Since my dog is classically conditioned to enjoy that sensation it actually acts as a reinforcer and creates an endorphine rush.

I have dogs trained for protection which includes a guarding component. I still correct them for inappropriate barking. It doesnt change a thing.

Redirection and teaching alternate behaviors does NOT suppress a behaviour. In some cases it can mask it but it does not eradicate the behaviour. That goes doubly so in the case of strong behaviours. 

I train dogs that are crazy in the house to go to and stay in a place on command. I have not suppressed crazy in the house, I have merely created an effective management strategy thats easy to implement. Of course punishment in making the dog remain in place is used. 
Why? Because its easy for the dog to understand being punished for leaving place as opposed to being crazy in the house, usually multiple erratic behaviours. Hard to punish.

What I have often found with internet training debates is what I term as manners or good training is very different from others. When you see a lot of different dogs with various training backgrounds and drive levels things become more clear.



To paraphrase Gary Wilkes "You can either live down to the dogs level or have the dog live up to your level".


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What I have often found with internet training debates is what I term as manners or good training is very different from others. When you see a lot of different dogs with various training backgrounds and drive levels things become more clear.


I can certainly agree with that. Otherwise - I just got lucky with 5 GSD's in 40 years that didn't need physical corrections 99% of the time.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

That's good. Once properly trained neither should any dog..


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Why? Because its easy for the dog to understand being punished for leaving place as opposed to being crazy in the house, usually multiple erratic behaviours. Hard to punish.


This is where I may have dodged a bullet. It was not hard for me to verbally correct multiple erratic behaviors when she was younger, I think because I'm pretty much home all the time (retired now) raising this one. She really didn't get away with much and was good to have free rein at 5 mos.

I'm curious Blitzkreig - I didn't know you trained for house manners also. Are you able to train to a point where a dog that's been crated for a year or more can be free in the house & trusted when the owner is away? This seems a sticking point with some (owners training) and I find it sad that the dog has to go through this type of confinement year after year when the owners are at work. Justification and acceptance of this practice is certainly deeply accepted at this point where it would have been deemed crazy a few years ago. 

I asked Bailiff this a while back and he said it's very difficult to train house manners (when left alone) because of the lack of owner follow through in training. Is this where you think most of the problem is also?


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> > Why? Because its easy for the dog to understand being punished for leaving place as opposed to being crazy in the house, usually multiple erratic behaviours. Hard to punish.
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't normally see this kind of thread but good that it's here. Good posts from Blitz so not much left to say.

The no as a marker for a consequence (making it a conditioned punisher) is different from a no that is spoken in disagreement to try to call a dog off a particular course of action. 

When it's backed by physical punishment the result is to reduce further incident of the behavior till frequency of incidence approaches zero. The idea is get rid of the behavior not make it dependent on constant handler input or intervention.

The difference is dog has been punished for chasing deer by no and correction it sees a deer and knows not to chase because the end result is not desirable. On the other hand the dog sees the deer gives chase unless the handler sees it early enough to dissuade it if they even have that much control, but perhaps owner is not paying attention turns around and dog is already 100 yards away because the owner didn't see to give input on not doing it. Huge difference.


As an aside chasing squirrels is not a harmless behavior. Allowing crittering is very dangerous. I've had friends that have lost dogs to chasing cats or squirrels into roads and were hit by cars.

Anyway end result. My dogs are Malinois and don't chase squirrels if they see them while doing obedience they don't even care. They got punished for it everytime they first showed the behavior so they never had fun doing it so it is just something they don't do, something I pretty much never have to punish for anymore. It's done. The lesson is learned. I get what I want. The dogs are safe. The need for punishment over this behavior is almost zero or at zero I say almost because maybe one day it pops up again but when it does I'll be there to punish it and keep it gone.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If the handler isn't present would the dog chase the squirrel?Dogs can be trained reliably to ignore livestock but squirrels and rabbits are Sooo tempting.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Depends. It's a self reinforcing behavior. If you punished it from the first time it was ever presented as a behavior then yes when you are not there the dog will not do it even when you are not present to punish. If you allow the dog to reinforce on the behavior for years you may have to stay on top of it for a while and make sure the dog can't perform the behavior when you aren't around then maybe set them up where you spy on them and have e collar to test it or something. It is def more something you have to work for a while if you allow it to go on for a while.

As a general rule if your dog is free and you're there you need to be watching period always ready no matter what because dogs learn all the time and if you don't have input they learn stuff that will annoy you at some point. But when I'm out with my dogs and I see rabbits and squirrels I watch but I don't get anxious or worried because it isn't going to happen and I'm 99.9% sure...but I'm still watching


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I should clarify if you punished from the start maybe it never happens even if you aren't there. Maybe. Odds are in your favor or at least more strongly in your favor. It's like a wolf going for a porcupine maybe after its first try and a bad experience it gives it up for good...maybe it needs to try again just to be sure. Who knows nothing in life is guaranteed aside from death.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

When I raise a pup from day 1 it's much easier for the dog to go without a crate after a little bit. 
When I get older dogs in that have been allowed to satisfy themselves with counter surfing, destruction and eliminating in the house making the behavior disappear quickly when you are out of the picture is difficult. You can use a nanny cam and remote collar but in most cases I don't bother.

Dogs have no issue being crated. Even the ones that come here with crate issues get over them quite quickly. The crate is a safe quiet place for the dog to sleep and relax. It also removes seperation anxiety and velcro dog type behaviour. No dog NEEDS to be loose in the house when the handler isn't around. Exercise and stimulation happen with the handler preferably outside. 
I tell clients that ask this question to first create 100% good house behaviour and when that is perfect allow the dog a bit of unsupervised time here and there and see how it goes. Escalate or deescelate from there.

Dogs I train tend to automatically go to their place even when loose without a handler present because the behaviour has become so hardwired. But that takes a bit of time and consistency.

The only time I make being loose in the house a priority is for the PP dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

It should also be noted that many people have minimal issues with pulling house manners or anything with their dogs. These dogs tend to be low drive / low energy fairly balanced individuals. I have had this dog, you see people with this dog regularly. Sometimes its not training..it's really just the dog.
Most people that have these issues tend to have either created the behavior see most pet owners or have a medium to higher drive dog that is bored and living without necessary structure. Or the anxious nervebag type at the other end of the spectrum.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah the super chill ones naturally are what I call doormat dogs. They just lay there while you walk by them and are super chill. Nothing wrong with that. For certain people those guys are great. Not for me personally, but that's just me.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you guys for your responses. The reason I asked the question about training house manners after long term crating is because it has been mentioned here several times. Where - they crated for the first year to year and a half and then tried to provide house privileges which worked until they were left alone the first few times.

It didn't seem to be a mass destruction derby. Just certain things, trash or things left on coffee table tops. A frequent response was, well - they're not ready yet but we'll try again in 6 months or next year. As if, they are waiting for age and maturity to take care of the problem. 

These are the people that I hope can be helped. The ones that do have the desire to put the crate away. Personally, I want my dog to be able to bark at a front or back door or a window if there's someone checking out the property. She also has access to two picture windows and sends out a pretty good bark and visual to those who should just move on down the road....

Call them all doormats if you will. But on that - you are wrong. They are a great deterrent. My last "doormat" GSD did get a bite in on one guy going over the back fence one night here - came back with a black knit ski mask as a present to me. The police said "Good Dog Smoke":laugh:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I tend to look at house manners as meaning I'm there. Whether a dog is ok alone I think is mostly temperament. My nervy, bark and pace 6yr old can be left anywhere. He's never shown anything close to being destructive or getting into anything that wasn't offered.

Our sweet, calm, easily trained lab years ago or our ultra laid back English Setter couldn't be trusted around anything when you weren't there. You could set up any scenario and punishment you can think of, you left, they're doing what they want.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great to have all three of you on one post. Because you all pretty much agree - it's word to me. I'm sure happy, I've had the temperament type GSD's over the last 40 years that were able to settle in the house. It was especially important, I think in their elderly years. Great input on this topic - Thank you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Stone, I'm no authority on anything. I'm just pointing out my opinion and basing it on our dogs and friends dogs that we may have spent a decent amount of time with.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Stone, I'm no authority on anything. I'm just pointing out my opinion and basing it on our dogs and friends dogs that we may have spent a decent amount of time with.


I understand Steve. I take commonalities out of posts like this. My take away on this primarily are the discussions on temperament and behavior when a dog is left alone to it's own devises.... That it would be very difficult to do with some - ever - by the average pet owner and that is a new concept to me. You all have much more experience than I. Because I've only had a few dogs, my perception was off that this is a relatively simple thing to train. I thought it was the dog owners lack of knowledge that provides this stumbling block but it may be just the nature of the dog.

I also understand more about the reasons for you guys never allowing an inch with much of the behaviors. It's like there is a huge elephant in the room with the problem dog (or maybe several) and when you successfully train - that elephant becomes a miniature toy elephant and the continued enforcement against that elephant does not eliminate it - but keeps it at the tiny size that it's barely noticed anymore. It will always be there, it will just be inconsequential and hold no power over the dog.... (unless I've totally misunderstood)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> The reason I asked the question about training house manners after long term crating is because it has been mentioned here several times. Where - they crated for the first year to year and a half and then tried to provide house privileges which worked until they were left alone the first few times.
> 
> It didn't seem to be a mass destruction derby. Just certain things, trash or things left on coffee table tops. A frequent response was, well - they're not ready yet but we'll try again in 6 months or next year. As if, they are waiting for age and maturity to take care of the problem.
> 
> These are the people that I hope can be helped.


I object to your characterization that people who safely confine their dogs when they're gone, either in a crate or some other way, don't train house manners. I train house manners from day one, and my dogs are very good around the house. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't get into mischief when unsupervised for long periods of time. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But it doesn't matter to me, the garage pen we've used with four dogs over the past 15 years works very well and I see no reason to change the way we've being doing it. 

They have plenty of room (it's approximately 8 x 8 feet), Kuranda beds, and a dog door to a securely fenced outdoor run. And yeah, at night my adult dogs are still crated in our bedroom at night. I don't need to be "helped" to change my mind about doing what's best for us and our dogs, IMO. Your opinion is different, and that's fine. I don't really care what anyone else does and unless someone was having a particular problem and asking for advice to help solve it, I wouldn't presume to tell them what I think they should be doing instead. It would be nice if you felt the same way, but sometimes people's biases override their good manners. 



Steve Strom said:


> I tend to look at house manners as meaning I'm there. *Whether a dog is ok alone I think is mostly temperament. *My nervy, bark and pace 6yr old can be left anywhere. He's never shown anything close to being destructive or getting into anything that wasn't offered.


A thousand times this!



> Our sweet, calm, easily trained lab years ago or our ultra laid back English Setter couldn't be trusted around anything when you weren't there. You could set up any scenario and punishment you can think of, you left, they're doing what they want.


And this too. It's easy to say that any dog _should_ be able to be left loose alone in the house at some point, but the reality is never that simple. Nor is it always a manner of training, because as several people in addition to Steve have pointed out, it's extremely difficult to train your dog not to do something when you're not there. If you have a dog that's fine when you're not around you can decide it's due to your stellar training skills if you want, and that any person could do the same thing with any dog if they just chose to, but you'd be wrong. 

Dena was practically perfect by 3 months old. Tom left shoes on the floor and she never chewed a single one. Halo on the other hand, is 7 years old and still chews potholders and toilet paper. How could I be such a fantastic dog trainer to have a beautifully behaved 3 month old puppy in 2005, but 10+ years later I have one that's so incorrigible???? Hint: It's not about my training skills, it's about the inherent temperament of the DOG.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And I respect everyone's experience. You raised 4 dogs successfully to what you wanted at that time. We all end up with a dog that throws us a curve and makes us learn something new and sometimes we end up with different goals.

Maybe there's an elephant, and maybe there isn't. For me, I just find structure and a routine easy. No matter if the dog is a problem or not, its how I enjoy them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I object to your characterization that people who safely confine their dogs when they're gone, either in a crate or some other way, don't train house manners. I train house manners from day one, and my dogs are very good around the house. But that doesn't mean that they wouldn't get into mischief when unsupervised for long periods of time. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But it doesn't matter to me, the garage pen we've used with four dogs over the past 15 years works very well and I see no reason to change the way we've being doing it.


Please read my post #50 again. Then please read my last post. I was very specific in noting that I was only bringing up this question for people who have expressed a desire to uncrate their dogs and later experienced some problems. I was asking for tips to help them. My last post also acknowledges and thanks those who were helpful to clear up my misconceptions about what role temperament plays in this.

It had absolutely nothing to do with you or anyone who has not expressed a desire to uncrate their dogs. Please don't take this good thread there.....


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Every dog I've ever had was never destructive indoors after their first birthday.Some were crate trained and some not.I've got two now that love to dig though.Have to keep a close watch on them in the yard.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mine aren't doormat dogs, but they are pretty easy going with my things. Except...

Ok, well, I had Quinn in with her mother until about 4.5 months old, when I put Karma in their area (in the house behind my living room with a baby gate to the living room and a doggy door to an outside kennel. And I put Quinn in with Babs during the day on the other side of the room with a baby gate to a small outdoor kennel. 

Now, she's been allowed to be up in the house and has been awesome, toys strewed around the living room that she loves playing with and just an eh-eh, kept her from going for the garbage or counter surfing. Nice puppy. I thought. So when I moved her to the otherside, I let her take some of her toys out there. They have a cot, and some open crates, and well, it's a pretty comfortable area, lots of toys, nothing to get hurt on. 

So the first night, when I came home from work, I thought I would just let her have the run of the house while I cooked a late supper. I opened the x-pen, the baby gate, and the baby gate to the living room and went to the kitchen to start supper. IDK, maybe 30 minutes went by before checking on her. 

Both boots were outside, two hats, both my gloves, she even went into my dirty clothes basket in my bathroom and dragged my bra back into her area in the room. Is there a pattern here??? What a little monster! 

She did not chew on them. Just carried them out there, either in the room or through the doggy door to the outside. Before when she was in, she only played with her toys in the living room. So what is with my outside clothes and stuff??? 

Well, anyway, she can be in, but the baby gate to her day time area has to be shut. She is not destructive. She doesn't eat stuff she shouldn't. She isn't the type to just lie there when you walk by. She's actually a nice dog. But trust her??? Not on your life! Not yet.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lol - bra in the yard. Got that badge of honor too. Mine hasn't touched anything for a year and a half. I had to leave right after breakfast a couple of weeks ago and left a paper plate with a crust of peanut butter toast on the side of my computer table.

The crust was gone when I got home. My mouse was hanging off the edge of the table and on the blank screen - she had typed the letter "g"..... nothing else. I don't know if she was going to say "good stuff" or "gods! she's home already!".

I had the door open most of the day today, first nice day. Just coming and going to the shop. She carried her balls into the house (4) then she carried them out again but I did a yard sweep just to see if she remembered to keep to her stuff cause it's been a long winter but she was good. I guess i got fair warning about leaving peanut butter toast lying about though....


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

All 3 of my GSDs over the years earned full roaming privileges in my house unattended......none were crate trained. However, my first dog...an Irish Setter...well that's a different story.

SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Yeah the super chill ones naturally are what I call doormat dogs. They just lay there while you walk by them and are super chill. Nothing wrong with that. For certain people those guys are great. Not for me personally, but that's just me.


Not for me either. I'm firmly on the dark side now..when I retire I might get another GSD. Lol


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So do you guys post on a Mal site now and just come "slumming" here? Wouldn't want you to get too bored with the Doormat types. lol:laugh::laugh:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> So do you guys post on a Mal site now and just come "slumming" here? Wouldn't want you to get too bored with the Doormat types. lol:laugh::laugh:


No, there are no mal sites. And mal owners are too wiped out by their dogs to set one up. So they just come here and show off their crazy, crack-r-jack dogs here, while slamming GSDs as boring doormat dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

GSD are not what I'd consider doormat dogs. Doormat dogs are not breed specific they are personality specific. 

There are definitely dogs out there that can't be trusted in a house unsupervised even after training. Crank is one of them because he has an extreme oral fixation that is just part of who he is. He goes outside and grabs something and carries it around all day. Even sleeping at night he will sometimes wake up and full mouth grip a pillow and just hang on. He does that quietly enough it's hard to catch him. Luckily he doesn't normally tear stuff up but he easily could get into that.


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

Just wanted to say I've absolutely LOVE this thread! I keep checking for new posts. Great discussion. 

I had an 'argument' once on a board about whether a dog can understand the word "no". I took the position that a dog, just like a toddler, learns the word and what it means from context. My opponent's position was that, unless I could explain to the dog, in English, what the word 'no' means, then it couldn't possibly understand... I say she wasn't giving dogs enough credit. 

I have always used crates for potty training only. Once the pups have been potty trained, they then learn the rules of the house and obey them 100% while I was gone... That was true for my first four dogs, 2 of which were GSDs (doormats, I suppose). They were all left together when we left the house. Never an incident of any kind. Ah, the good old days...

I have a feeling my new puppy is going to be different. We will use the crate as long as necessary, possibly all his life. Whatever it takes. Using a crate or not using a crate - neither is right or wrong. It's all in what works best for dog and owner.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think what they understand is the tone, not exactly the word unless the word itself is followed by something. Maybe a harsh, short NO will interrupt something, but it probably won't be enough to put an end to them doing whatever it is.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The very first training class I attended,the trainer said NO is useless and to only use cues for behavior you want.I disagree.I'm with Steve on that.I use the word in a no nonsense tone to stop something immediately,then redirect.It be any word of course,MARSHMALLOW!!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Tongue in cheek kids...tongue in cheek...
There will be a very nice WL GSD with top bloodlines here very soon.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And at some point someone here will be like man that's a nice dog it's spun up and drivey like a mal, and then some of us will roll our eyes and think well, if that's what you wanted why didn't you just get a mal.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

FourIsCompany said:


> Just wanted to say I've absolutely LOVE this thread! I keep checking for new posts. Great discussion.
> 
> I had an 'argument' once on a board about whether a dog can understand the word "no". I took the position that a dog, just like a toddler, learns the word and what it means from context. My opponent's position was that, unless I could explain to the dog, in English, what the word 'no' means, then it couldn't possibly understand... I say she wasn't giving dogs enough credit..


How Dogs Understand What We Say : Shots - Health News : NPR

And I say she wasn't giving dogs enough credit either.:laugh: Every year that goes by, we learn more about dog communication. This study was published 2/2014. There is every indication that because dogs "co-evolved" with us - and evolved so rapidly specifically to coevolve with us that there is apparently a way that they use their brain to analyze human language (among other things) to understand what we are communicating to them. 

When you consider that just 130 years ago that 80% of all dog breeds we know today didn't exist - you can see how far and how fast man has altered and refined the dog. 

I believe that dogs know what "No" means MORE THAN any other species on earth outside of man. This most recent study has opened a door that many of us knew existed but until it could be tested - many would not believe it. I'm sure the jury's still out but not for much longer.....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> And at some point someone here will be like man that's a nice dog it's spun up and drivey like a mal, and then some of us will roll our eyes and think well, if that's what you wanted why didn't you just get a mal.


Hahaha! Exactly. At some point - it's pointless to compare the two. They are different and you have choices. The differences have their own merit, not one over the other..... I didn't know that in addition to HD (also), Mals have a vision problem in later years going on too.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> And at some point someone here will be like man that's a nice dog it's spun up and drivey like a mal, and then some of us will roll our eyes and think well, if that's what you wanted why didn't you just get a mal.


:thumbup::thumbup:

Never once seen or heard of one with eye issues.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Never once seen or heard of one with eye issues.


Breed Info | Riverview, Florida Veterinarians | Brandon Lakes Animal Hospital

scroll down just past halfway until you find the discussion on eye issues in the Mal. I believe their breed club recommends eye checks which the OFA maintains a registry for.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I wouldnt take that article as any kind of gospel..


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

German Shepherds door mat dogs????:nono:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This is one arena where GSDs have it over Mals.

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/BelgianMalinois.php


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When max got out of the crate because it was not shut right at 8 months old he chewed our arm chair. Gradually we let him out of the crate loose in the house when we were not home. When he was 10 months old we went away for a weekend trip then at a later time a 1 week trip. We left him loose in the house with mom and dad checking in on him. When we got back the house was as we left it accept for a roll of shredded paper towels. I wAs very proud of my boy.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I wouldnt take that article as any kind of gospel..


Blitz - I know you won't. But I would expect you to look into it. Sorry, but I'm not going to serve it up on an acceptable platter for you. Do your own research, if you can't or don't know how- drop an e-mail to the Mal registry group. But, maybe they don't have a clue either.....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is one arena where GSDs have it over Mals.
> 
> https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/BelgianMalinois.php


Over the few that have that issue maybe. Some of us are into dogs that glaze over at the eyes and bite the **** out of stuff.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Over the few that have that issue maybe. Some of us are into dogs that glaze over at the eyes and bite the **** out of stuff.


Actually, I think that was what they were talking about. 

But seriously, it brings to my mind "rage", a form of epilepsy which once was so prevalent in Dobermans and is still found throughout all breeds today on an occasional basis. I wonder if it is related or, possibly, the same thing.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually, I think that was what they were talking about.
> 
> But seriously, it brings to my mind "rage", a form of epilepsy which once was so prevalent in Dobermans and is still found throughout all breeds today on an occasional basis. I wonder if it is related or, possibly, the same thing.


I know rage syndrome or they may use a different term now does sound very similar but has been noted in dobermans, shepherds,cocker spaniels, english spaniels and a few other breeds. Im not sure it is the same. They are both glitches in the brain though how much different can they really be.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Over the few that have that issue maybe. Some of us are into dogs that glaze over at the eyes and bite the **** out of stuff.


Sometimes I wonder what motivates the extremist. Regardless of the motivation, it's always pretty obvious that they are not very concerned with driving the dog ultimately into the ground and go on to the next......regardless if that is protection or sport. The dogs break down early and often. They simply get replaced.....plug and play. No concern with care for the life of the dog.They are not pet owners.....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> I know rage syndrome or they may use a different term now does sound very similar but has been noted in dobermans, shepherds,cocker spaniels, english spaniels and a few other breeds. Im not sure it is the same. They are both glitches in the brain though how much different can they really be.


I never heard of it in Shepherds, but it once was rather common in Saint Bernards as well. I knew somebody whose Saint had it and if it wasn't for their Pyr being there when it first occurred, things could have gotten quite nasty with a dog of that size.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It seems to be a big problem in english springer spaniels and cocker spaniels. a handful of other breeds can get it a Gsd is one of them but not that common.Our pediatrician had gsd with rage syndrome she did everything at extreme great lengths to help this dog and was not able to. The article you posted about the bm's have not heard of it not sure if they use seizure medications or if condition can be managed. In rage syndrome prognosis is unmanagable. Saint bernard -yes huge damage. Your friends are lucky their other dog was strong enough to stop it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Over the few that have that issue maybe. Some of us are into dogs that glaze over at the eyes and bite the **** out of stuff.


 :thumbup:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Stone...I dont need anything served on a platter.. I'm glad the AKC is helping to provide information to the uninformed on Mals. Once again be careful what sources you choose to accept as reliable.

As for your other comment, have you seen videos of Bailiff's dogs training? Its like asking someone why they would drive a ferrari if they could get a civic. 

From a personal standpoint, I'm a lot of handler, and I need a lot of dog to keep up with me..we get along. Ironically I get asked all the time if Mals make good pets by people that see my dog in public and like his stable demeanor and control. 
Mals were bred for work and still are largely bred exclusively for working applications. When this is the primary factor that informs breeding selection it is not surprising that they are exceptional in this role. Its not "extreme", they are exactly what they should be to suit the function they were designed for. Most people shouldnt have one and there is nothing wrong with that. Infact it is probably the best thing to happen to the breed.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

My boy is a bit chill out dormat in house that said I have a question.

When playing tug with his ball, he doesn't get quite the glazed look but he sure gets a look in his eyes that I only see during tug.

My question is when I scratch or rub his neck and chest it really amps him up. Why would this amp him up as opposed to calming him down. How does he Perceive it? As an attaboy give me more of that drive or is he viewing it as a nuisance touch, stop bugging me I want thatballlllll!

I really do like when I can understand the thought process.

Also I would not play like this if I did not have such a great bond and trust factor with him as the ball is not large and my hands are very close to either side of his mouth. and it does all start with the no means no and the foundation manners that have been taught.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> As for your other comment, have you seen videos of Bailiff's dogs training? Its like asking someone why they would drive a ferrari if they could get a civic.


Other then the one on positions? I'd like to see them, do you have anything else Bailiff?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> My boy is a bit chill out dormat in house that said I have a question.
> 
> When playing tug with his ball, he doesn't get quite the glazed look but he sure gets a look in his eyes that I only see during tug.
> 
> ...


Being in a amped up state all the time is mentally and physically unhealthy and there would be a crash. It important the dog is able to become quiet so it is good.
Is your dog starting to get amped then up a fast motion scratch or any touch would give him the green light to go and would just add to the energy. Opposed to your dog being tired where a calming pet or scratch would be soothing. Yeah the glaze it seems to be in their blood. When it comes to the ball tug there seems to be a powerful disconnect from everthing and everyone other then that ball. What i like about this is you can transfer that focus on to you in training with ball or tug rewards. They can move mountains with that focus


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The mals are capable of chilling around the house. Even the very high level ones can be taught to relax and shut off the crazy. There are certainly some handlers that are more into the sport and trophies and that kind of thing and when they're done with the dog they rehome or whatever but I don't think that handler is all that prevalent. Many want to be able to live with the dog off the field. How they manage is something that varies wildly from trainer to trainer.

My dogs are not crazy in the house, they don't destroy my stuff. Some of that is accomplished through training some management, but I have my pattern that works for me and my dogs and a GSD or mal would fit into it just fine without a significant change of effort on my part. When you know dogs dogs are pretty easy regardless of energy level.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you guys for your responses. The reason I asked the question about training house manners after long term crating is because it has been mentioned here several times. Where - they crated for the first year to year and a half and then tried to provide house privileges which worked until they were left alone the first few times.
> 
> It didn't seem to be a mass destruction derby. Just certain things, trash or things left on coffee table tops. A frequent response was, well - they're not ready yet but we'll try again in 6 months or next year. As if, they are waiting for age and maturity to take care of the problem.
> 
> These are the people that I hope can be helped. The ones that do have the desire to put the crate away.


Your tone reads like the rest of us are beyond help! 

I don't think my dog will ever have free run of the house. Perhaps the top floor, but not the full house. She's still a dog, and we have cats. Given that I'm perfectly fine with crating or confining, it's okay if she doesn't, but if she earns the privilege of freedom upstairs when we are gone or sleeping, also fine.

My husband WFH pretty much full time now, so it's only rarely that she's crated during the day. She behaves pretty well with minimal supervision and has taken to waiting on the couch in "her" spot when he leaves her for 15 minutes to get a coffee. 

I do chalk this up largely to maturity along with the ever-growing "bank" of training we have done with her in general; despite ongoing work on house manners and reinforcing the house rules, she couldn't do this a year ago. Six months ago, it was iffy. Now, at nearly 2, she does well. Her impulse control is much better, and she has mellowed a bit. I have been told that two years is a fairly reliable age at which the dog has matured enough to be trusted more readily (obviously this is on average, dogs will mature at different rates), and this seems to be pretty true for her. I don't expect her to be cool all at once at age 2, but I do expect that her capacity to behave well uncrated will increase as she matures. She has known the rules from the time she was young, but I have adjusted my expectations of her actual (versus ideal) adherence to said rules as she has grown up.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Your tone reads like the rest of us are beyond help!
> 
> 
> I do chalk this up largely to maturity along with the ever-growing "bank" of training we have done with her in general; despite ongoing work on house manners and reinforcing the house rules, she couldn't do this a year ago. Six months ago, it was iffy. Now, at nearly 2, she does well. Her impulse control is much better, and she has mellowed a bit. I have been told that two years is a fairly reliable age at which the dog has matured enough to be trusted more readily (obviously this is on average, dogs will mature at different rates), and this seems to be pretty true for her.


That was certainly not my intent. My question was to ask for tips for the people that are having a difficult time. The impression I got from their specific posts were this; I left my dog out for 4 hours while I was gone. He tore up some toilet paper (or whatever) - I'll try it again in 6 months....

What's missing in these old posts that's not missing in yours is the considerable training that you have put in. If you were asked by one of these people how to accomplish the transition rather than (oops - my dog blew the privilege dog - back in the crate with him/her for another 6 months) which is what they are doing(without training) - what would you tell them? What tips would you share with them? I honestly don't know how I would tell them to help if asked.

The only thing I do know is that yes, I lost some stuff that got munched, that's unavoidable IMO (I lost a couch years ago to my wolf/shepherd) - but I put everything away that could get munched and was willing to take the risk and trust the training I had put in. It cost me 5 pair of reading glasses and clipped cords on an old vacuum and computer monitor(unplugged) but I count myself very lucky But each of those ended up a training opportunity. It's very possible that maturity eliminates part of the problem but without the training, trust and correction - but how will they learn without the training and some losses?

I now understand (from posts here) that a temperament issue may prevent some dogs from ever having house privileges. Perhaps a kennel is an option for some for the long term for those that want an alternative. For those that want an alternative NOT for those who do not want an alternative. My posts have nothing to do with them. 

Factsheets : Dog Keeping laws for Germany

Just in case anyone's curious about dog confinement in other countries, here's one link. The link is a summary of dog keeping rules in Germany. They've given us some fine breeds over the decades. They are apparently very serious about providing plenty of space for their dogs. (A dog height ATW of 65cm would be a little over 24 inches, the 10 sqm would equal a little more than a 10 foot x 10 foot kennel.) I think their minimum kennel size and adequate shelter for weather/warmth and exercise periods are good and sound requirements.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, ya know, dogs do mature. There are phases that pups go through when the teeth are overactive. So just waiting a few more weeks/months will actually make a difference. Also, in six months, the chances are great that the dog will have more experiences when the owner is home to correct the puppy, in the course of every day stuff, and stuff like chewing on inappropriate objects seems to resolve itself with the added time. The training is there, it is just not noticeable.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Those standards are for if the dog lives in the enclosure 24/7. It does not speak to crating..
Even if it did it would not be meaningful if you understood the current situation with laws relating to animals in Germany and other western European countries. Facts and reality have very little to do with many of their new laws relating to dog training and ownership.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> That was certainly not my intent. My question was to ask for tips for the people that are having a difficult time. The impression I got from their specific posts were this; I left my dog out for 4 hours while I was gone. He tore up some toilet paper (or whatever) - I'll try it again in 6 months....
> 
> What's missing in these old posts that's not missing in yours is the considerable training that you have put in. If you were asked by one of these people how to accomplish the transition rather than (oops - my dog blew the privilege dog - back in the crate with him/her for another 6 months) which is what they are doing(without training) - what would you tell them? What tips would you share with them? I honestly don't know how I would tell them to help if asked.


I was totally teasing you! 

And you know, I wouldn't know what to tell them either. Because our training was ongoing and implicit from day one. It really wasn't focused on, "And now we will work up to leaving Puppy uncrated" but instead on raising a puppy who was a livable house companion in general and giving her a chance to mature. It was pretty much what Selzer said:


selzer said:


> Well, ya know, dogs do mature. There are phases that pups go through when the teeth are overactive. So just waiting a few more weeks/months will actually make a difference. Also, in six months, the chances are great that the dog will have more experiences when the owner is home to correct the puppy, in the course of every day stuff, and stuff like chewing on inappropriate objects seems to resolve itself with the added time. The training is there, it is just not noticeable.


In a single sentence, daily opportunities to teach and correct and for the dog to grow and learn. We don't expect the world right away; we've been doing these very short increments and she does fine. I would never expect her to be fine for 4 hours right off the bat. When she was unsuccessful, we just dialed back our expectations and we gave it some time before trying again.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

A circle is generally round in shape....

There you go Blitz... have at it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> That was certainly not my intent. My question was to ask for tips for the people that are having a difficult time. The impression I got from their specific posts were this; I left my dog out for 4 hours while I was gone. He tore up some toilet paper (or whatever) - I'll try it again in 6 months....
> 
> What's missing in these old posts that's not missing in yours is the considerable training that you have put in. If you were asked by one of these people how to accomplish the transition rather than (oops - my dog blew the privilege dog - back in the crate with him/her for another 6 months) which is what they are doing(without training) - what would you tell them? What tips would you share with them? I honestly don't know how I would tell them to help if asked.
> 
> ...


 Isn't a meter about 3'? So wouldn't 10 square meters be about 30'x30'? Those would be large kennels.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Isn't a meter about 3'? So wouldn't 10 square meters be about 30'x30'? Those would be large kennels.


Yes. Approximately 3.28 feet to a meter. So essentially the 10m x 10m kennel would be approximately 1076 square feet.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> Isn't a meter about 3'? So wouldn't 10 square meters be about 30'x30'? Those would be large kennels.


10 square meters would be the floor area not how long the sides are.It would be a little more than 3 meters per side.Math lesson for the day ,lol!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> 10 square meters would be the floor area not how long the sides are.It would be a little more than 3 meters per side.Math lesson for the day ,lol!


ARGH you are right and I just totally failed at math.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lol Remember years ago when they tried to make us in the USA switch over? Nuf said...:laugh::laugh:There's 10.7 square feet in 1 square meter....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> 10 square meters would be the floor area not how long the sides are.It would be a little more than 3 meters per side.Math lesson for the day ,lol!


You're right. It would be the square root of 10 to get the side. That makes sense. 

Here and I thought my dogs were really being neglected. Most of my kennels are 10x15 and if they have 2 or more in them, they are 14-15'x23-25' So, I'm ok. LOL!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My pup was trained and had free rein the day she turned 5 mos old. That's why I never considered maturity as a necessary requirement to train this. 3 of the 5 pair of reading glasses I lost happened when I was here. I intentionally set them on the night stand and would wait until she went into the bedroom and got all together too quiet in there. This way I was able to catch her in the act. They only cost 1.98 each from the thrift store so it was an affordable lesson.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stone,

I think the big difference both you and I enjoy regarding the free rein...is the 24/7 with the pup. When I was working it didn't happen nearly as quick but it did happen but not in 6 months like my current girl. The other factor in my situation which led to a 6 month free rein situation was my daily leave it training....I really pounded that into this dog, she's amazing in that department. I purposely set this dog up to fail in so many ways regarding leave it training but she figured it out incredibly well...

Whoops...gotta go my dog is eating the stereo speaker...


SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WateryTart said:


> Yes. Approximately 3.28 feet to a meter. So essentially the 10m x 10m kennel would be approximately 1076 square feet.


Our first house wasn't that big! :wild:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Stone,
> 
> I think the big difference both you and I enjoy regarding the free rein...is the 24/7 with the pup. When I was working it didn't happen nearly as quick but it did happen but not in 6 months like my current girl. The other factor in my situation which led to a 6 month free rein situation was my daily leave it training....I really pounded that into this dog, she's amazing in that department. I purposely set this dog up to fail in so many ways regarding leave it training but she figured it out incredibly well...
> 
> ...


LOL! I don't know. I've just been thinking back. My two GSD's in San Diego slept with us every night but were outside during the day when we were at work. But, when we moved to Tahoe, we left them in all day when the weather was super cold but just a few weeks a year (but they would have been a year and and a half old by that time). Same with here in CDA my pup before Summer was inside while I was at work all day when the weather would go sub zero for a couple of weeks in Dec/Jan. He would have been between 6 & 7 mos because I got him in August. That worried me cause he had to be in with the 2 cats - but it all worked.

The only commonality with my experience is they all slept in our bedroom with us at night as soon as they were house broken and therefore had the house manners down pat. Oh Yes! All their first names were "Leave It"! for a long while.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Stone,
> 
> I think the big difference both you and I enjoy regarding the free rein...is the 24/7 with the pup. When I was working it didn't happen nearly as quick but it did happen but not in 6 months like my current girl. The other factor in my situation which led to a 6 month free rein situation was my daily leave it training....I really pounded that into this dog, she's amazing in that department. I purposely set this dog up to fail in so many ways regarding leave it training but she figured it out incredibly well...
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHAHA!!

And this is a great point - the number of hours you spend reinforcing those lessons is greatly multiplied when you're home more. Two young professionals working full time will not have that same level of opportunity. Of course, even when working from home when she was younger, I had to crate her sometimes just so I could get something done quickly without interruption. I don't think there's anything wrong with crate training and using a crate in that situation, but it does change the dog's opportunities to practice house manners. We just tried to make all of our off time count.


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