# New Question



## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Since I am relatively new to feeding my dogs RAW, I still have some questions. 

Today I contacted my local meat store. On their website they actually advertise Pet Food. It is made up of Beef, Liver, Kidney and beef fat. When I talked to them I asked how much % is the beef fat, and they said it is about 20-25% Now I know they need fat, but is that too much?

So far I have fed my two chicken leg qtrs, turkey necks, & chx gizzards. This has been for about 2-3 weeks. I am adding salmon oil and Vit E starting tomorrow(for some reason, I keep forgetting to add it, so have it set out in plain site now). 

At the meat store, I can get chx backs for $.89/lb, and they have to be ordered in 20lb increments; turkey [email protected]$.99/lb &30lbs is the smallest order they take, and the Beef Pet Food is $1.09/lb

I ordered 10lbs-Beef Pet Food
20lbs-chx backs
30lbs-turkey necks for a total of $68.30

I still feed kibble in the morning, with Kefir(yogurt culture) salmon oil, Vit E mixed into the kibble. Add pumpkin as needed. Have not added any eggs yet. I plan to change this schedule to feed them RAW in the morning and kibble at night, because they will eat better(Zisso tends to need excercise before he will eat kibble) before I go to work, when that happens in a few months. I am thinking my order will be between 2-3 months worth given my 50/50 feeding schedule.

At night I feed RAW. Nadia is 72lbs and I feed her about 9-10oz RMB, 7 about 6-7 oz MM. I have not yet added any OM.
Zisso looks best at 65 lbs-I feed him about 8oz RMB & about 4.5 oz MM, no OM yet.

I know that I will need to add the Beef slowly and in very small amounts when I do start adding it, but due to the fact that it has liver and kidneys in it, that would mean I should omit any extra OM, correct? What am I missing, other than fish? Doing wrong? I have really tried my best to do my homework on this. 

Forgot to say that they both are average activity level. We walk for 1-1.5hrs a day and play fetch for 30 minutes 2 or 3 times a day; train 3x's/day for 15 minutes each(remember I do this with each dog individually, so it is double everything for me, excpet fetch, time wise)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZissoSince I am relatively new to feeding my dogs RAW, I still have some questions.
> 
> Today I contacted my local meat store. On their website they actually advertise Pet Food. It is made up of Beef, Liver, Kidney and beef fat. When I talked to them I asked how much % is the beef fat, and they said it is about 20-25% Now I know they need fat, but is that too much?


I'd rather know what percentage is liver and what is kidney and what exactly is the beef meat. Also - no bone in it?

20-25% is a bit high but I wouldn't write it off just because of that.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

That is good to know Lauri...I will talk to them again tomorrow and post it here. The reason I asked about the fat content is because it seems that both of my dogs get very soft stools with too much fat.

Are you the Lauri that has the website with the spreadsheet? http://www.rawdogranch.com
If so I want to thank you for it!! It has helped me tremendously in getting this all figured out!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Zisso, I am new to this, too, and have been feeding raw for just a few weeks. Our butcher has a similar thing they call "kennel mix" and I had the same question about it. That thread (complete with photos) is here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1315315&page=3#Post1315315

I think it is going to be hard to get an accurate picture of the amounts in it - I have not been able to here - it is just the trimmings and stuff they don't use when slaughtering/packing animals. It is USDA inspected, I was able to determine, but could have varying amounts of MM/OM. 

I've found in experimenting with it so far, that it is very rich. Although Luther does fine with liver, too much kennel mix does affect him. He loves it - and I put just a spoonful of it on his meals at this point and will decide as time goes on whether I will include it as a regular menu item - probably never a major player.

Welcome to the "Raw Side"


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Martie-Thanks for the link to your other thread. I bet that is about what I get in this order! I think I will start out with just a spoonful too. I am going to call the meat market today to ask about what is in it as far as MM and OM and try to get better percentages and therefore a better idea. Too bad they don't sell it in smaller portions, but then I guess if it is too rich for my two sensitive pups it will last a long long time! I am thinking that because I only feed one meal raw that this order will last about 3 months anyway.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Just got off the phone with the meat market- they do not measure the amounts of liver, kidney etc and there is no bone in it. So it is made up of liver, kidney and beef fat. They said there is not any major amount of MM in it, other than what might be on the blade when they scrape it off. So in the long run, I am getting 10lbs of OM....







now to figure out what to use as MM and get it ordered


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Our butcher freezes the kennel mix and they saw it into ~1 pound blocks, so it's easy to work with. I also feed beef liver and for now am using the kennel mix as an adjunct OM - just because I don't know for sure what's in it.

Sounds like you're well on your way! Let us know how it goes - hope it's as great an experience as ours has been. I'm sure they'll be very, very happy.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Okay...I decided not to get the "Pet Food" because I have a strong feeling that it will not go well with either of my guys. Last night they had chicken leg qtrs and chicken breast. No OM. I eyeballed the breast meat. Tossed it in at the last minute with the qtrs. Today from what I could see, Nadia did fine(I am very happy with her stools) but Zisso-had some extra soft/loose stuff that I was not pleased with. I wish that I could just give them chx qtrs or turkey necks for their raw meals! They both do so good poop wise when that is what they get. I know they NEED more than this, but their stools tell a different story. 

I am, howver, going to keep plugging away at this!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

When I feed chicken I feed just the chicken quarters. A lot of the chicken quarters are pretty meaty. And some dogs do better with more bone in their diet. Also Chicken is quite fatty and while I leave the skin on, I cut the fat glob that on it's "knee" area. So Zisso might just need a little less fat, or a bit more bone. You could feed some meals just quarters, or half a chicken (small) and another meal of turkey necks and the chicken breast, or ground turkey. Good luck


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I bought 10lbs of chicken backs and ended up with 40lbs of turkey necks from the meat market(I ordered 30lbs Turkey necks, but they sold me 40lbs when I got there) I also bought ground turkey and Talapia today. I have to wait for all of the backs and necks to thaw a bit before I can start packaging. Though I would give them backs with the ground turkey. 

Here is another question tho... do my weights in my original post look right? Or should I be giving them more RAW at night? They still get kibble in the morning, with salmon oil, vit E, and Kefir(yogurt culture) And won't I eventually have to give them beef and pork and other stuff to make sure they get everything they need?


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Please qualify this by remembering I am new also and hopefully more-experienced others will chime in. (You will sure help me, if you do as well!)

I understand that the proportion of RMB to MM can directly affect poop quality. Chicken leg quarters are meaty and maybe by adding in the breast meat, you threw that balance off for Zisso. More bone = less and firmer poop; more MM = softer poop. You may need to adjust amounts for each of them separately. I might also suggest getting some chicken livers (they are easy to find in most grocery stores in the "wierd meat" section) and starting with just a tiny amount - see how it goes - and increase when you can.

Now you have chicken backs and turkey necks (turkey is another protein - so add that slowly). Both have much less meat on them so adding MM will be important for your dogs.

Are you planning to go all raw - or continue half & half? I can't remember where, but I thought that in order to keep the diet balanced, you should not go more than 30% raw/kibble? Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong!

In any event, if you start with Lauri's suggested 50% RMB, 45% MM, 5% OM, and then adjust from there, you should be OK. The beef and pork and other stuff can come in a week or so when you achieve the right proportions and know they're doing well.


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

Also - as a fellow new-to-raw person - please weigh everything and keep track of what you're feeding. It's so easy to do what you did - just throw in that chicken breast because it "looks" OK - but we newbies really need to be careful about what we're doing!







It's so easy to eyeball something and get it wrong - and then not truly understand why because we don't have good records. I, a card-carrying member of the AR club, have a spreadsheet I built just for this purpose. Lauri has one on her website that is extremely helpful and (THANK YOU LAURI!) it is available to download.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Martie








You answered my question very well!! I kind of thought that adding that extra chicken breast is what threw Z off. I always forget to say that I have chicken liver in the freezer too. Just wanted to wait till I got my order & was ready to start packing it all up. When I do start adding the liver it will be in teent tiny increments to make sure I don't doom them for the bad poops! And I do have Lauri
s speadsheet downloaded-I am just so not sure about the weights & proportions, because I am still planning on doing 50/50 raw/kibble. My old scale seems to have broken so I bought a digital one today at Walmart. I Definitely plan on weighing everything so I can make sure I get this right









It feels like it is going to take a day at least for the turkey necks and chicken backs to thaw enough to package!! arrghhh! I will probably spend tomorrow getting it all done up.

And yes, Thank you ever so much to Lauri for the spreadsheet!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Zisso It feels like it is going to take a day at least for the turkey necks and chicken backs to thaw enough to package!! arrghhh! I will probably spend tomorrow getting it all done up.










I'll be thinking of you tomorrow! It actually didn't take that long to do my box of chicken backs - but I was sure glad to wrap that last #$%@$% one!!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Also...backs can have a lot of fat on them and I know you are worried about the fat content your dogs were gettingn and thinking they were sensitive about it.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

mspkier -yes, I am watching that issue too. I am trimming off a lot of fat for now. Will wait to add ground turkey till I am sure they can handle the backs, as the GT is 15% fat, and when I do add it plan to start with an ounce and move up from there.

I am soooo ticked off right now! My little, very old scale would not zero out anymore, so yesterday I bought a digital scale at Walmart. This morning I was 12 packs into packing up the backs and the danged battery died!







Now I am on my way to replace the battery or get a different scale so I can spend the rest of the day getting this stuff packed up.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Got a different scale and have to say that I am exhausted after packing up 40lbs of turkey necks, 20lbs chicken backs, & 10lbs ground turkey! WOW! I don't how you guys do it on a regular basis!! But it is done, and the dogs will have turkey for dinner tonight







My kitchen is cleaner than ever before...LOL That must be the bonus for all of this


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Are you weighing the daily portions as you are unpacking? That will make the process very exhausting, I'm sure. I just pack the RMB in gallon zip lock bags and the MM in quart size bags, and only weigh during mealtimes. Also, previous posters are right about different dogs doing well on different portions of raw. Wolfie does best on 60% RMB and 40% MM & OM. I am using beef kennel mix as well (as Martie showed above) and so far Wolfie has been doing fine with it. He hasn't had issues with fat in the past, maybe that's why. Thank goodness because stomach issues on top of his kidney issues would have done me in, for sure!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

UConnGSD~yes, I weighed everything as I went. 

What I did was weight most of it in 12oz portions with the thought that if it isn't enough I can always add more. I also did the ground turkey on 2oz portions for now since I need to start that shlow with them. So tonight for dinner they had 12oz turkey necks, and about an oz ground turkey. 

I don't know if I would like having to deal with Kidney issues, but then again I am not having much fun dealing with sensitive GI's either. I am crossing my fingers that they have good solid poop in the morning. Someday I will find the perfect balance!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Yeah, weighing each portion at once does take a bit more time. I used to do that (I actually prepackaged meals - RMB's and MM into one bag) but I got lazy and now just stuff as much as I can into bigger zip lock bags and weigh each meal.
FYI - 12oz turkey necks and only 1 oz ground turkey will probably get your dogs constipated. Turkey necks are very boney and they will need a bit more MM with them.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Thank you! I thought about that with the turkey necks, but worry about the fat content in the ground turkey so wanted to start them out easy since they have never had it before. I have pumpkin on hand if it is needed too







I think I might get lazy from now on too...LOL Gosh that was exhausting!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Update on poops after 12oz turkey necks and 1oz mm(ground turkey)

They were not constipated!! My dogs go out first thing in the morning while coffee is brewing and I sit up by the house having my morning smoke, so I do not see where and when they 'go'. Later in the morning when it is light out so I can see, I do pooper scooper duties before we play. What I found this morning was exactly what I have been finding for the past month since I have been feeding them RAW for dinner-perfectly formed, small, tidy, glorious turds














This after almost a full year of occassional diarrhea and soft stools from Z and 6 months of a variety from Nadi. One little pile looked to have a little bit of mucous with it, so I am thinking that the fat content of the ground turkey caused it and I will be keeping a close watch on that. Fingers crossed that the chicken backs tomorrow night don't cause total upset!

A big thank you to every one for your help here


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Taking both dogs to vet today for weight check. Crossing fingers that it is my imagination, but they seem to be losing weight! They are also starting to refuse to eat their morning kibble unless it has at least some yogurt or Kefir in it- just before starting to feed RAW for their evening meal I was almost thinking Nadia was getting chunky. Z seemed to be holding his own at his 60lbs. If they are indeed losing weight, should I up their RAW at night? I do not want them to lose weight-wanted Z to put on 5 lbs and Nadia was looking good at 72 so really wanted her to stay about the same.


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