# Working line X Unknown Pedigree - Help me pick a pup?



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Well I got a call from one of the guys in the schutzhund club near me who heard I was looking for a pup and a friend of a friend had a litter that might interest me. So I said sure and got the contact information. It turns out the litter was an accidental one. Most of the pups in the litter were destined to pet homes but the owner of the sire and dam felt that 3 of the pups would be a bit much for an average family. That's the why they put feelers out towards the club. 

I feel really comfortable with the owner of the dogs. They aren't BYBs and they aren't profiting at all from this litter. The "rehoming fees" for the pups are less then what I would spend on a diner out with my signif. The owner does have experience with working shepherds as well - he is a K9 handler with the police department. Of course they are NOT breeders so I'm not sure how much experience they have assessing young pups. 

The sire is everything I would want in a shepherd. He's a retired dual purpose dog. Import from belgium. He was a solid worker. I absolutely loved his temperament. Calm, cool, confident, a bit aloof with me but totally tuned into his handler. They guy could make the slightest gesture and the dog would react. It looked like some sort of freaky mind reading! The only health issue the dog has had is arthritis - which is what ended his career at 9. 

The dam is the wild card. She was a rescue. No known history. They were told she was spayed and they had her for year with out any signs of that being untrue. Then she went into a silent heat. Thus the 11 little bundles of joy. The pregnancy had left her a bit shall we say touchy? The owners said that normally she is pretty middle of the road temperament wise. I will say I liked the way she was built. Straight back, slight angulation and my oh my did she have the most gorgeous trot! Very pretty girl. 

As for the pups. They are 7 weeks - I spent most of the time interacting with the three that the owners felt needed a job, but I did look at them all (I mean how can you say no to 11 little fluffballs!?!?) The 3 I looked at are definitely far more tenacious then their litter mates. If I didn't know any better I would say there was no way they were all the same litter! They formed a little pack all of there own as the other pups just couldn't handle their energy. Here are my observations on them.

*Initial Meeting:*

I just walked over and stood amongst them. Waited for them to approach me. All the pups seemed interested in sniffing and playing with my shoes. I bent down and lightly clapped my hands to get their attention and then started petting them. 

Puppy 1: Came running over immediately. Mouthed my shoe laces and tugged on them but was much more interested in my hands when I bent over and clapped. The most social of the bunch squirming and pushing his littermates out of the way when they were getting more attention.

Puppy 2: Came running over immediately. Began tugging on my laces. Very difficult to redirect away from them. He did a smack good job of untying them. He seemed to get frustrated when he hit the end and they didn't give any more. He got louder with his growls and did some head shaking. I had to tuck my laces into my shoe. Once the laces were out of sight he became more social accepting pets and mouthing

Puppy 3: Acknowledged my presence but didn't come over until she saw her brothers getting attention. Pounced on my shoes but decided they weren't fun and gave up. The first to loose interest in the new person and went back to doing her own thing. 

*Restraining The Pup
*
This was mostly the health check. Looking closely at their eyes, in their mouths, ears, holding all paws, flipping them over to check genitals and for umbilical hernias

Puppy 1: Struggled and thrashed. Put all of his might into not being restrained in any way.

Puppy 2: Struggled a bit at first but then stopped the struggling. Very very mouthy. Was calm and cool with any type of touch as long as some part of my body was in his mouth. 

Puppy 3: Accepting of pretty much what ever I wanted to do. Only resistance was a twitch when looking in an ear. 

*Cuddling The Pup*

I couldn't resist by this point. The cuteness took over. I held the puppy up and gave them a snuggle

Puppy 1: PUPPY KISSES!!! 

Puppy 2: Tried to bite my nose. 

Puppy 3: Seemed pretty relaxed kinda cuddley but probably just tolerating it.

*Playing with a toy*

I had a braided polar fleece rope toy. I dragged it around, made quick flicking motions with it and played tug. I eventually left it to the pups to play with on their own. 

Puppy 1: Chased but would give up if the toy moved too fast. Once he got a hold of it though he clamped down. Refuse to lose type attitude when it came to letting go. He was the biggest of the bunch and used his weight to his advantage when they were playing together. He just got low to the ground and held on. When he won it away from his littermates he just pranced off like he was the man. 

Puppy 2: Wasn't particularly interested in chasing after the toy. It had to be right in front of him to get him to engage with it. When playing tug he was very vocal, much louder growls then the other too. A lot of head shaking. The few times his thrashing won him the toy he ran with it. 

Puppy 3: The quickest to chase. She pounced after it in a way that reminded me of a fox hunting mice. These little hops before grabbing. Did not lose interest no matter how difficult it was to catch. Once she had it she didn't tug with anywhere near the intensity as the other two. When they had the toy to themselves the boys dominated it and she darted around barking, running in and nipping at them. 

*The evil puppy eating air compressor*

While I was chatting with the owners there son came out to add some air to his car tires near where the pups were playing at (Maybe 10 feet away?)

Puppy 1: Totally oblivious to the loud sudden noise.

Puppy 2: Seemed more curious about it then anything. Approached the machine cautiously while it was still running. When it was turned off he bit the wheel 

Puppy 3: Flinched and jumped a bit when it came on. Didn't run off though, she watched it for a while then went back to her games

*The wind down*

After the zoomies started to subside and they mellowed out I sat down on the ground with them and encouraged them to come over and just calmly pet them and then take my hand away. 

Puppy 1: Seemed to enjoy the affection. He would try to get back under my hand when I moved it away. Mouthed a bit. Followed puppy 3 when she departed. The two of them curled up together for a nap. 

Puppy 2: Hard to really pet around the constant mouthiness. Seemed pacified when allowed to have my finger to "chew". When I moved my hand away he would use his paws to try and pull it back to him. He curled up next to me and rested his head on my foot to sleep.

Puppy 3: Enjoyed a few pats but was then was off exploring before I even had the opportunity to move my hand away. She is the least mouthy of the three. Puppy one followed after her and they fell asleep together. 

What I am really looking for is an 'intro to schutzhund dog'. I want to get involved in the sport, I want to train in it and mostly I want to test my skills as a handler (far more so then my desire to test the skills of my dog). My goal is simply to enter a competition and not get disqualified XD. So I'll admit the idea of a puppy from this litter is appealing. It would give me the chance to get my feet wet & make sure I am really committed to it. That way I wouldn't waste the potential of a dog with a great pedigree. If the pup I get from this litter ends up washing out - I'd have a better idea of what I am looking for and in 2 to 3 years I wouldn't be opposed to getting a second dog - one from titled parents on both sides. Of course on the flip side I don't want to set myself for failure by getting a pup that has zero chance of ever setting foot into the ring. 

What do you think? Should I walk away from this litter? I know it's a bit of a craps shoot with any pup but do you think these guys would have potential? Which one? 

And thanks to everyone who actually got to the end of this


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I would say no thanks because of the unknown female and the way you said she became "touchy". I'd be worried puppies from that female would become "touchy" later on.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

if this is a breeding you are truly set on getting a pup from, I'd go with #1 and possibly #2 after another visit (window into the personality). #3 wouldn't interest me as I like a pup that isn't all that independent.

If you do choose a pup and it is a wash for sport, what will you do, do you have options in placing?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Pup 1 and 2 (siding more on 2) might be just right for you.
At least one of these 3 would have a home that gives them the best chance to shine .
If the pup doesn't work out totally for club sport then you would have had the opportunity to get experience and do better for the next one , which you are prepared to get anyway.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't want to derail the thread, and if I were the OP, and I was set on this litter, I would probably take #2.
But I am curious why no one likes #3, because I have to say based on descriptions she'd be my first choice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not as focused, attention span not as prolonged , bit of hesitation , at same time a bit busy and hectic , and I really like dogs who show interest in being part of a team - handler dog rapport . This #3 will need some aide - ball , food to bring her in or on board.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd like to test those pups without littermates around and in a strange to them environment before making any decisions.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Number 1 probably - although your comments say each have at least one strong negative


The unknown factors of the dam would definitely concern me.....it is tough enough for a novice to title a dog who is from known lines and test well....

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would probably go with #1. #2 sounds a bit hectic to me and way too obsessed with having to have something in his mouth. I have seen pups like that and never cared for the nerves. It is as though they have to have something in their mouth to feel secure. #3 I would want to see again at 8 weeks. She sounds lower threshold, but I would want to test her in a strange environment away from her siblings. I also like to see more out of females at this age. Males I might wait, but not females especially when the lines are totally questionable. She sounds like she shows good prey drive, but lacks in fight. The independence doesn't bother me. 

I would also test their hunt drive or at least the desire to work a scent box for food. Take them all out alone in a strange place (it can be a room they have never been in, a different yard or a park) and see how they are again. Play with them, let them explore, etc.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Id raise 1 or 2 as a PP prospect wouldnt bother with either for sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

#1 or #3 for me.


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## LaurenAuslan14 (Jul 12, 2015)

I like #2, I don't know anything about the sport though! He just sounds just like my puppy


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

THANK YOU for your responses everyone!!! I very much appreciate them  I'm not dead set on this litter it was just passed along to me and I figured I would go check them out! I am kinda drawn to one of the pups so I think I will visit them again and see if we can see their reactions in a novel environment as suggested by a few of you . I'm not really concerned with actually titling what ever dog I get - my day dreams are more of the going out to the club every weekend and working the dog seeing little improvements every few weeks. If I get bit by the competition bug I wouldn't have a problem purchasing another dog (and if more serious competition and titling does become a new goal for me I'd probably opt for an older/started dog instead of a pup anyways) 



onyx'girl said:


> If you do choose a pup and it is a wash for sport, what will you do, do you have options in placing?


Yes I have an option for placing - my couch  Whether I get a pup from this litter or from a breeder I have every intention of keeping it around for the next decade and a half regardless of it's capabilities for sport.



carmspack said:


> At least one of these 3 would have a home that gives them the best chance to shine .
> If the pup doesn't work out totally for club sport then you would have had the opportunity to get experience and do better for the next one , which you are prepared to get anyway.


 That's actually something I was thinking about earlier today. The people who are in the market for a working shepherd are going to pass these guys up because of their breeding but they are going to be too much dog for those who want a pet. I can just see them ending up in a bad situation. 



Sabis mom said:


> I don't want to derail the thread, and if I were the OP, and I was set on this litter, I would probably take #2.
> But I am curious why no one likes #3, because I have to say based on descriptions she'd be my first choice.


No! By all means derail! Derail! I am loving reading the insights and the whys of puppy x vs puppy y. Even if I don't end up with one of these three this is too good of a learning opportunity 



lhczth said:


> I would also test their hunt drive or at least the desire to work a scent box for food. Take them all out alone in a strange place (it can be a room they have never been in, a different yard or a park) and see how they are again. Play with them, let them explore, etc.


Will Do!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd like to test those pups without littermates around and in a strange to them environment before making any decisions.


Yes. before they are 8 weeks and with someone unknown. They know you now. Observe for a good, out-of-smell distance.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

"No! By all means derail! Derail! I am loving reading the insights and the whys of puppy x vs puppy y. Even if I don't end up with one of these three this is too good of a learning opportunity "

Do NOT take my advice! I am neither an expert, nor experienced with sport dogs.
I have largely owned dogs of unknown pedigree, and I have had great success with the dogs no one else wants. This is possibly because my expectations are lower, possibly because I have a knack for finding their 'key'. I was the same way when I trained horses. I got solid gold out of the write-offs.
The female pup you described appealed to me because independence doesn't scare me, because in spite of startling she held her ground and took a look. I find that much more attractive then no response at all. I like that she displayed tenacity in getting the tug, but lost interest once she had it. She won, she moved on. I like that she displayed enough courage to strike out on her own, but was easy enough to handle. 
I would like to see her out of her environment, with an unknown person, but your description is of a brave, inquisitive, willing hunter. The right person could build on that. 
I have been sitting here trying to think if I could find a way to get her here


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I am kinda with Sabis mom.. I like either #1 or #3, 3 being more my kind of dog. I like an independent personality that still has drive when you want/need them to but can still turn off after the fact. #1 for IPO/ScH might be nice though because he was very confident up front and didn't display any fear. While I wasn't fond of him not being interested in the tug if it was too quick, once he got ahold of it, he seemed locked on. That and he showed interest in YOU.. liked the cuddles and allowed to be "checked" with no issue. #2 seemed a little mouthy for me not being able to calm without something in his mouth. Currently having a dog who is very high drive and doesn't calm well, I, personally, would pass on him because of that. 

Still I think I would go with #3, for me.. solely based off this one experience. However, it would def. behoove you to take a look at them outside their normal environment individually.. see how they do without the reassurance of their litter mates around. 

Take all that with the fact that.... I don't do IPO/ScH. No expert here, just an opinion from a fellow GSD mom, lol.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I have an independent dog (like #3)....I wouldn't recommend it for someone that enjoys a dog that wants to work with you. At least in my experience, an independent dog takes a lot more work as opposed to one that loves to engage and work with you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the trait of having something in his mouth comes down from the Wurttemberger herding dogs - so that would include Bernd Lierberg .


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Was there a decision made?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Was there a decision made?


I'm wondering the same thing.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I ran into a labradoodle pup recently that like putting things in his mouth.....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good observation.

you would expect this from two breeds developed for retrieval , the lab and yes the poodle (water retriever)

gsd were not developed for retrieval -- so carrying comes from a different place


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm thinking that the "independence" of #3 is probably not as polarized as we might think, or that it would at least take more evaluation. When we first met Nikon's litter, he was basically as #3 is described. Didn't care what we did to him, but wasn't running over to greet us (all the other puppies did and he was still off in another corner doing his own thing), and was the first to chase/interact with toys. He is absolutely *not* what I would call and independent dog. He was basically up my butt until he turned 5 or 6 years old! Only in the past year will he lie down and stay lying down in another room where I am not in his sight line. I always wished he were a bit more independent and love how he is now. He likes to know where I am and what I'm doing, but no longer has to follow me *everywhere*. He no longer runs over to check on me when I simply reach over for the TV remote, lol. IMO any GSD should want to work with a human and engage when there is actually something to do.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Any one of the three would be a good learning experience for the sport. Believe me, my current youngest is a far different dog to train than the older dog which was my first Schutzhund dog.

As far as someone looking for a working dog passing this litter up -- not so fast on that. DVG has no breed restrictions. We have a small, mutsy dog at our club that is doing very well. The last I knew it looked like she would do fine with the #1 dumbbell, too. So sometimes people in the sport fuss over the pedigree, other times they work with the dog they find and do quite well.

I come back to any of the three will give him plenty to work with.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes, a decision has been made! I have a puppy now  

I was able to see them in a new to them environment a week later, also brought some yummy treats along. 

Puppy #1 - He was much more subdued in the neighbors yard then at home. Less of a brute. For the most part he just sat on his chunky butt and looked around quietly. Not overtly frightened just not interested in the environment. Took some coaxing and encouragement when we walked around to get him to follow, but was quick to engage in play. Still a super tugger! Pulling out the toy is like a light switch with this boy. He seems to be mouthier then the previous visit. He was interested in the treats and was fairly easy to lure into positions with them. 

Puppy #2 - Whined a lot in the new yard, but would explore. Saw some things he was unsure about (Red plastic pail in sand box) backed up at first but then his curiosity got the better of him and he would check it out. He was quick to follow and even a bit underfoot. Not as mouthy as landsharking now. Grabbed my hand and did not want to let go. Tried playing tug with my flesh. Ouchie. He was very interested in the treats and did his best to use paws, claws and teeth to pry them from my hand. Got frustrated and barked at me.

Puppy # 3 - I passed on her because another party was interested in the pups for SAR work and she was their first choice. I figured it was best to let her go to someone who knew what they were doing! I don't know much about SAR training but it seems that with her prey drive and independence/willing to explore her environment she would be suited for it 

Whew! It was a tough decision - but I am already in love with my little man so I am super happy with it. He's an awesome pup. A total trouble maker.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so who was it ?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

So which one? You don't say.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

d'oh! I thought I mentioned it LOL 

Puppy # 2 is the little ankle biter that has been wreaking all sorts of puppy havoc


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

YEAH !!!!!! 
would love to follow this one as he grows up.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Congrats! Pics please

Sounds like you got a good one.

And I'm happy that the little girl went to a SAR home.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

awesome!!!  yes yes.. pictures


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Here is the little ankle biter at 7 weeks. He is not the most photogenic pup! LOL I'll get some more recent pics up as soon as I find the cord for my digi cam. But for now enjoy the shakey cell cam pic


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Congrats! This guy will keep you very busy... Have fun!


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## Fun (Jul 16, 2015)

Whee, congrats for the new addition to your family!

I have to say that I'm rather curious about what kind of GSD #3 would grow into.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

with a name like voodoolamb the dog should be called Black Sheep

what is Einstein-puppy's name?


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

What a cutie!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone!  



carmspack said:


> with a name like voodoolamb the dog should be called Black Sheep
> 
> what is Einstein-puppy's name?


hehehe Well since he is a smart cookie that likes to bite and walks around the house mouth open seeking his next needle teeth victim - He has been named after the shark species with the highest brain to body ratio, and is now called "Mako"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what a great name . love it .
looks like he's been well looked after .
all the best


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