# when to start biting training?



## Aralango (Sep 12, 2012)

My GSD is 10 months old. And the trainer said, she don't want to bite (in her biting protection training). Is it because she still a puppy? or her personality?

I'm worry that she will never be a protective dog.

What I know about her:

*Super submissive!
*Fear aggression.
*Barking a lot at strangers.

She likes to be (or pretend) to be aggressive at strangers, by barking strongly non-stop, or heading to them like she wanna attack them. But when the person didn't care and keep heading to her, she get scare and go back "retreating".


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Do you really think it's a good idea to attempt to bite train a dog with all those issues?

You really should just be working on her confidence instead of trying to make her more aggressive or a possible weapon.


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## Aralango (Sep 12, 2012)

That what was the trainer doing, trying to give her the confidence by barking at an intruder, and then the intruder will run away (because she was barking) and petting her.
So, in barking she is good, but in biting no.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If I were to train a dog to bite or in protection, I'd want the dog to have the right stuff upstairs. Strong nerves, high thresholds, confidence, a clear mind. 

Any dog with poor nerves can bark. It's the ones that can think before reacting that are the ones that are right for real protection training IMO. 

Training a dog that is already fearful of people and with a not so great nerve base is just asking for trouble and a possible lawsuit. You're reinforcing her fear. She barks and you're telling her good girl. Do you really think she's going to be able to tell if the person she's barking at means harm to you? If this were my dog, I'd ditch the protection training all together. 

Who is this trainer and what credentials does he have in this kind of training? 

At this point, she's still young and probably can be worked with. You want to teach her that people are good. You should want her to ignore and not react to everyone and everything. Build a bond with your dog. Let her feel like you're the one doing the protecting... not the other way around. Do you really want a dog who thinks it's actually a good thing to bark at every single person and strange thing she sees out in public? This is what I mean by building her confidence.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

No reputable trainer in their right mind would even consider doing bite work with a fear aggressive dog. Protection training does not instill confidence in a dog like that, it reinforces their fear as LucyDog said. You are asking for trouble and a lawsuit. She is not "pretending" to be aggressive. She cannot determine what is a real threat and what is not, because she is extremely insecure. Rewarding her for that behavior only tells her that EVERYONE is a threat. 

This person you are seeing is not a good trainer. At all. Find a new one, ASAP. If you want to get into protection work, find a REPUTABLE protection trainer. When they tell you your dog is not suitable for that training, they will be able to help you with what to look for in a future dog. Then, work with your dog on the fear aggression and building confidence the RIGHT way, so that she may live a normal life without constant management and liability on your part...because right now, she's an accident waiting to happen and that's without any real bite training.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

LoveEcho said:


> No reputable trainer in their right mind would even consider doing bite work with a fear aggressive dog.


Just an aside.... I have seen a very well known trainer who competes internationally working a dog as described by the OP in bitework.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

I would bet that well known trainer is not putting that dog in a situation where it is charging people on the street. He/she is probably working on building confidence and a foundation to see if they have something to work with or not. The OP's dog is not showing the characteristics that I would want if I were going to start bitework.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Freddy said:


> The OP's dog is not showing the characteristics that I would want if I were going to start bitework.


Nor I. 
But blanket statements based on an interpretation of short internet posts should, imo, be challenged.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Agreed. Just my opinion. Could be a stage of development. My male was very sharp at that point, and was kenneled whenever we had guests. He's now still protective but very social and wonderful and affectionate in the house, even with guests. Great in bitework too.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I wouldn't do bitework with this dog - (from what you say) doesn't have the nerve or temperament for it. Focus on obedience, tracking, socialization, management


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OP- I agree with the others. Skip the protection training for now. Work on socialization and confidence. Let strangers give your dog a treat. Let him know people are not all out to get him. Build confidence by taking him on playground equipment at a local park and things like this. Expose your dog to as many things as possible. If these issues go away then start looking for a GOOD protection trainer. Right now the dog just does not seem to be in the proper state of mind mind for bite work.


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## Aralango (Sep 12, 2012)

> Do you really want a dog who thinks it's actually a good thing to bark at every single person and strange thing she sees out in public? This is what I mean by building her confidence.


No. When she bark (at someone, or another dog) while we are walking, I just ignore her. However, when some one passed us and she just ignore him/her/it, I treat and petting her.
But the strange thing:
I took her to a busy street in downtown (so, she can be used for people and all other sounds) So, I was petting her for ignoring people, and we were ok. Suddenly, she bark aggressively toward someone (who didn't look at her, and not even close to her). Then, she explode and start barking to everyone passing. This happened 3 times, I dunno why. So, I stopped taking her downtown or any busy streets.




> She cannot determine what is a real threat and what is not, because she is extremely insecure. Rewarding her for that behavior only tells her that EVERYONE is a threat.


No rewarding for that behavior (I told that to the trainer). The trainer reward her, after she bark and scared the intruder, when there is a "Burglar intruder's case". So, she can build her confidant (by feeling that her barking made the intruder to run away). And just only for the strangers who touch the fence or try to climb it. (I went there and saw the trainer with her from far. He is with her, and then he will give her the word "watch", then her ears will stand up and start looking straight. And then, the intruder (since she will be a home protection dog, which there is no attackers in this case) will start moving slowly and hidden behind cars or walls, and then when he close and she sees him trying to come to her territory, she start barking, and after 10 to 15 seconds, the intruder will retreat and start running. Finally, the trainer will reward her for protecting her territory (the house). And she was good with that.
The next step is, when the intruder didn't retreat or stop, then she have to bite. And here is her problem, no biting, and SHE (not the intruder) start retreat.




> Let strangers give your dog a treat. Let him know people are not all out to get him. Build confidence by taking him on playground equipment at a local park and things like this. Expose your dog to as many things as possible. If these issues go away then start looking for a GOOD protection trainer. Right now the dog just does not seem to be in the proper state of mind mind for bite work.


I used to take her to the local park, but one time she chased a woman passing far from us, and start barking at her. The woman was really scared (she thought she was gonna attack her, and I don't blame the woman).
However, i'll try to go more often to the park with the leash.
Ill try taking her more out


gagsd, Freddy, and qbchottu thank you for your comments.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> If I were to train a dog to bite or in protection, I'd want the dog to have the right stuff upstairs. Strong nerves, high thresholds, confidence, a clear mind.
> 
> Any dog with poor nerves can bark. It's the ones that can think before reacting that are the ones that are right for real protection training IMO.


This, x100!!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

You need a new trainer, no offense. She is rewarding a lot of behaviors that aren't good....barking at someone, making them run away, and getting a reward(at ten months old with fear aggression!?)...that is NOT building confidence. You should be working on obedience, focus, and ignoring ALL other dogs and animals....it's YOUR job to protect your DOG, not his job to protect you(especially at this age with this temperament that you are describing, in my humble opinion), you are a team. I hate it when people put all this responsibility on a young, immature, dog, with little training, and behavior issues. You are on your way to having a dog that resource guards your house from EVERYTHING, including inanimate objects and non-threats.....Your trainer should know this. Good luck.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Just an aside.... I have seen a very well known trainer who competes internationally working a dog as described by the OP in bitework.


Yes, but with a novice handler/owner, and right off the bat (i.e. without working on the dog's stability), combined with rewarding for fear aggression? That was my only point. I should have clarified that, unless in expert hands, it shouldn't be done.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Aralango said:


> My GSD is 10 months old. And the trainer said, she don't want to bite (in her biting protection training). Is it because she still a puppy? or her personality?
> 
> I'm worry that she will never be a protective dog.
> 
> ...


10 months is too young and still a puppy. A legitimate dog trainer would have told you that right away.

Before you go any further, do you realize the possible consequences of having a dog that will bite a home intruder? You better have a six figure sum of money ready to hire expensive lawyers in case she does. Depending on the state, home intruders have successfully sued and claimed damages from home owners whose dog bit them. There is a much higher probability that a biting dog will bite a neighbor, family member, friend, or a service worker like the delivery person than an actual criminal.

If your dog barks at a home intruder she is doing her job. To expect more is unfair, and a liability. It is my dog's job to alert me to possible danger and it is my job to assess and take care of the danger, not theirs. 99 times out of 100 there is no danger.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Ocean said:


> 10 months is too young and still a puppy. A legitimate dog trainer would have told you that right away.


 
10 months is to young for what? Trainers for bite work in my area said that this is the best age to start


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

llombardo said:


> 10 months is to young for what? Trainers for bite work in my area said that this is the best age to start


I am talking about protection training not bite work. You can start an 8 week old puppy on bite work. You need an adult dog and human to start protection training.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Ocean said:


> I am talking about protection training not bite work. You can start an 8 week old puppy on bite work. You need an adult dog and human to start protection training.


 
Its pretty much the same thing.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

llombardo said:


> Its pretty much the same thing.


Have you done either?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Have you done either?


Yes I was interested and I got as far as the evaluation and decided after she was in that I did not want to do that sport. When my dog was evaluated for shutzhund(which is a combination of tracking, obedience, and protection) the man was in full gear(body suit/sleeve, etc). Yes the test for character, bite, and drive, but in the end it is still a protection sport. Its both bite work and protection the way I look at it The training is intense and I was told that 10 months was a good age to start, so thats when I went.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It could also depend on the situation. 

- 1st time tested and shows the issue(s)? Maybe after that session, the answer about working the dog would be no.

- Someone who goes to multiple people for bite work and the dog is now having issues that did not have issues before? We have seen that happen with young dogs and older dogs. People want to rush their training, not work with a training helper and not focus on foundation. Will jump around with training.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

llombardo said:


> Its pretty much the same thing.


Humbly disagree. Not the same thing.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Yes I was interested and I got as far as the evaluation and decided after she was in that I did not want to do that sport. When my dog was evaluated for shutzhund(which is a combination of tracking, obedience, and protection) the man was in full gear(body suit/sleeve, etc). Yes the test for character, bite, and drive, but in the end it is still a protection sport. Its both bite work and protection the way I look at it)


Not at all the same. 

You can start training a dog at 8weeks old.... however, you don't add anything with "protection" at all. It's a fun game, nothing serious about it. A dog should not be pushed in that for a while down the road, until they are mature and settled. You let them "grow up" a bit. 

Not all dogs are the same, so the timeline for that is depending on the individual dog. There's no real age you can put on it. Which is why that's evaluated by professionals.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So is this trainer doing IPO or PP? Utah doesn't have many options for either does it?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Humbly disagree. Not the same thing.


Please define IPO, Schutzhund, and bite work for me, please? I can't find anyone in my area that would do just bite work. It starts that way and goes into protection and from what I have seen, fairly quickly, but its still called protection/schutzhund. At my local "Schutzhund Club", it clearly states that obedience is at this time and protection training is at this time,there is nothing else in between those two. Its all connected and called different things but means the same thing and again this is just my opinion. I have watched tons of trials and they are all the same kind of trials just called different things. Going back to the original reason that I posted, its because there are dogs everywhere that start at about 10 months and IMO it is just not that young, granted the dog is stable enough to do the sport. I would be interested in finding a place that would do bite work only, which I have never been able to find


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dog that does protection/bitework need an obedience foundation as well...that is why there are seldom just 'bitework' trainers. You can hire a helper or decoy to work your dog, but that helper/decoy must have some trust in your handling skills. Dogs need to learn drive transition and control. And a dog that shows fear or other timidness will not go very far. Obedience will bring confidence because the handler and the dog are a team. The dog needs to know the handler is there for him/her. And yet the dog also needs to work independently when necessary.
Maturity helps with all of this. That is why starting young isn't always a good thing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Jane. Assuming the dog is as the OP says, she really needs more confidence before starting bitework. When a dog starts bitework is an individual thing and will depend on the dog's temperament, the goals and experience of the owner, and how the helper works the dog. There's no rush especially with a ten month old. I suppose bitework could help elevate confidence but I think that would take a pretty experienced handler and helper. I wouldn't want to risk it. Get the dog in a better place, mentally, before starting bitework.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

in my opinion your dog is young and maybe not ready for
bite work. what are you worried about? if you have a dog that's
not protective get another one that is protective and i don't
mean get rid of your dog. i mean find another one that
suits your needs. remember some are protective some aren't.
maybe question the training. get another opinion. 



Aralango said:


> My GSD is 10 months old. And the trainer said, she don't want to bite (in her biting protection training). Is it because she still a puppy? or her personality?
> 
> >>>>> I'm worry that she will never be a protective dog.<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

doggiedads Back!!! 
To build some confidence while using a decoy, a good way to do it is by having the decoy act like a threat from afar. The dog will alert/bark and the decoy retreats, but comes back....after a few of these 'plays' the dog will bark deep and as a 'reward' the decoy runs out into the great beyond, dog won, making that threat go away, saving the handler. No bite involved. 
Session lasts about 3 minutes max.
Crate the dog to process what just happened. Repeat it a few times over a week or two and there is subtle confidence building happening. 
If the dog won't engage in that scenario...then time to do something else because protection/bitework is a no-go with said dog.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

That is the problem. Too many protection only people that get into it for business and that do helper work and do not understand the foundation and training aspects of it.

It is a 3 phase sport.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> That is the problem. Too many protection only people that get into it for business and that do helper work and do not understand the foundation and training aspects of it.
> 
> It is a 3 phase sport.


And the three phases are tracking, obedience, and protection?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Smithie86 said:


> - Someone who goes to multiple people for bite work and the dog is now having issues that did not have issues before? We have seen that happen with young dogs and older dogs. People want to rush their training, not work with a training helper and not focus on foundation. Will jump around with training.


And then they come back to their main helper and expect him to fix things. :crazy:

I use two primary helpers now. One is excellent at developing the H&B and bring out the power in the barking. The other has tremendous feel when the dog is on the sleeve and is excellent in reinforcing their fight and power once on the sleeve. 

Sorry, I think that is off topic.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

llombardo said:


> And the three phases are tracking, obedience, and protection?


Yes. 

BTW, there are helpers that will do protection only including PP. I have trained with them.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> And then they come back to their main helper and expect him to fix things. :crazy:


No, not off topic. We see that more often than not. When you ask about it, they will quickly deny it.

But, people forget that you can see it in the dog's work and the handling work. Things change.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I dont think bite work and protection is the same thing. bite work is a game to the dog. their tail is wagging and they are having fun. protection is when they deem the threat as real and defense is brought out of them. 

you can start bite work on a puppy. its just playing tug. but i feel some dogs are built for it and some are not. if you play tug with your dog and it constantly readjusts the tug in its mouth then its not a good candidate. if it bites down on the tug and doesnt let go no matter how hard you pull or yank then its a good candidate. you want a dog that gets a good powerful clamp on that sleeve and doesnt let go (even when the trainer is hitting it on the side, yelling, turning) until told to do so

if my dog cant even sit on a busy street without barking uncontrollably at random strangers that isnt even looking at it, i'd stay far away from turning my dog into a weapon.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Maybe we should clarify by calling it "Phase C" and Protection.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> ....
> To build some confidence while using a decoy, a good way to do it is by having the decoy act like a threat from afar. The dog will alert/bark and the decoy retreats, but comes back....after a few of these 'plays' the dog will bark deep and as a 'reward' the decoy runs out into the great beyond, dog won, making that threat go away, saving the handler. No bite involved.
> Session lasts about 3 minutes max.
> ....


This is a good description of the work I have seen done on dogs who were not very sure of themselves. The only dog I watched progress, did indeed become more confident and a "better" dog.... not a fear biting menace.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I dunno if this trainer really is bad. I mean, it sounds like they are gently telling this person your dog has no business doing bitework/protection. Althugh I'm not sure why you aren't actually asking the person who told you think what they meant rather than coming here and asking us wat we THINK they meant?

I just don't think there is enough info really to judge if it's a bad or good trainer. I can definitely see--if done correctly--where building confidence through barking and having the "threat" retreat can set up a dog well for the future if they are going through a "fear" phase and aren't a total mental case.

It sounds like your dog has a threshold for the amount of people exposure it can take and you're flooding her when you go to these super public places, so once she snaps her mind is just gone and it's a lost cause. Stick to uncrowded areas where you aren't stressing her that much by people around people.

LAT game might be something to try.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There are some reactive dogs that are quite capable of bitework and even take pressure quite well. There are some that will never have what it takes. 
Had a dog at the club that would hide and shy from people even on his own turf. Now he is on the hard sleeve and is much more protective of the home. 
Another dog that was a fear biter taken to Scch 1.

I recently put up my reactive female, she was doing all the foundation work with me quite well it was the transition to a stranger that she just could not handle without going into defence. She will probably never have what it takes to do protection.
Have seen some real friendly confident dogs that are barely interested in the helper tug or anything other then socializing. Will never be suited to bitework.
Its a crap shoot you can improve your odds with good genetics but nothing is guarenteed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And then there is the dog that is born to it, never really needing the foundation for hold&bark or transitions from prey to defense because it is in their heart. 
The ones that need so much work just to get to trial, is it fair to the dog and is the dog having fun or getting stressed from too much pressure? It isn't ever a bad thing to wash a dog from protection. I'd rather do it early on when it shows the heart isn't in it, than try to make the dog into what it can never be.

From what I get of the posts, it is someone working one on one with them, and IPO style isn't involved.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

True worked a female today with 10-12 sessions total in her life. Already full grips on the hard sleeve, deep bark, nice temperment etc.


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