# Breeder red flags



## Ross Faverty (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi All,

New to the forum and looking for some assistance. My wife and I are looking for our first GSD puppy. I have grown up with GSD's my entire life and we said goodbye to our rescue GSD last year so this will be the first time going it alone with a GSD puppy outside of my parents. I grew up in England where the culture of GSD breeding that I was used to is very different to what I have experienced here in the states so far so I wondered if what I am about to share is considered the "norm" or if I should be weary of this breeder. 

Von Hoene Heritage Shepherds

Found them on the AKC breeders website and they have a "breeder of merit" acknowledgement. 

I emailed them asking if I could meet the parents and pups and asked for a copy of the lineage.

This is was the response I received....
__________________________________________________________________________________

Hi Ross:

A link (click here) type button for the pedigree showing the lineage of both Shuman and Princess is on the Available puppy page on my website. It is under the names of the people who have deposits down. I tried to link it to here, but I think they must be having trouble with their site because I can't get anything on the Pedigree Data Base to load on any of my devises. You might want to try again later. 
(I did some digging and the site has been down for weeks if not months)

Here are two pictures of Princess. She is a beautiful black and hot red female. 

As far as coming down to meet Princess and Shuman. Shuman is being used as a stud dog right now in Ohio, and then scheduled for service in Connecticut. He won't be back here for a while. Being a Remo Son (only one of 6 in the US) keeps him gone most of the time. 

Princess was at our handler's house in Ohio finishing her AKC Good Citizens testing and training for her BH when she gave birth 6 days early. Since it is hard on them to move them (5.5 hour drive), she is keeping them until the puppies are weaned, which should be around the 10th of April. She is keeping Princess to finish her showing and I am picking up the puppies. The puppies will be here then, and we have 12 other dogs here, one of which will be giving birth on or shortly after the 13th, so you are always welcome to come down. 

If you have any other questions, please feel free to call or text me as well. You will get a faster response that way. 

Thank you for your interest in our puppies!
__________________________________________________________________________________

For me personally there a few red flags here mainly taking the puppies away from their mother after only 5 weeks but like I said, im just looking to see what others think and to get a bit of guidance on our first puppy purchase.

Thanks for your time

Ross


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

They sent the dog away to "finish" CGC training?? But at any rate apparently the dam has no titles? What about the sire?

I couldn't make sense of the timeline but if they really took the puppies away from mom at 5 weeks that would be a dealbreaker for me.

Do they have OFA and other health testing that is easy for you to see on the breeding dogs?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I looked at the website. If I were puppy shopping, I wouldn't contact these people. I don't know if I can say why on the open board.


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## ARshuter (Mar 3, 2017)

As someone once told me "if you think it's wrong it probably is."


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Red flags to me are:

Prestige selling. Pushing the name of a famous _grandfather_ to make these dogs sound special. We don't know that yet. Let's see what makes the parents special first, other than being the offspring of a famous stud. 

Highest title I could see on a breeding dog is a BH.

Mixing of lines - looks like a confusing mix of West German Show, American Show, and Working lines. Does not look like there is a focused breeding plan.

Buyers get to pick their puppy in order of their deposit - this is a HUGE red flag! Good breeders get to know the buyers and match the right pup to the right family. What would be pick of the litter for me may well be a disaster for you. Any breeder that I would recommend would take the time and effort to personally get to know me, find out what I want in a pup, what my goals and past experiences are, and when the pups are 7 to 8 weeks old, and their personalities and traits are starting to coalesce, pick out the one that would fit with my expectations. 

Odd that the pedigree database is down. I don't think it has been down for over two months though, I'm sure I've been looking up pedigrees more recently than that.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

From what I see on their website they have no health testing done on their dogs. Even if they do most of there dogs have not been titled or proven. A handful have a BH or CGC which is good but still not breed worthy. Quality breeders will tell you what puppy is best for you and will pick one out for you, they know the puppies best and will place based on your needs and wants in a dog. If you really want a quality dog only look at breeders that follow the German rules for breeding or go above and beyond those requirements; both parents have to be titled (IPO/Schutzhund, HGH Herding, ect) have to have passing hips/elbows, and many now are testing for DM. I'm not saying this is a guarantee of a good quality dog but it sure puts the odds in your favor in getting a good puppy. There are tons of good breeders both working and show line that follow the German breeding regulations.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I looked at the website. If I were puppy shopping, I wouldn't contact these people. I don't know if I can say why on the open board.





astrovan2487 said:


> From what I see on their website they have no health testing done on their dogs. Even if they do most of there dogs have not been titled or proven. A handful have a BH or CGC which is good but still not breed worthy. Quality breeders will tell you what puppy is best for you and will pick one out for you, they know the puppies best and will place based on your needs and wants in a dog. If you really want a quality dog only look at breeders that follow the German rules for breeding or go above and beyond those requirements; both parents have to be titled (IPO/Schutzhund, HGH Herding, ect) have to have passing hips/elbows, and many now are testing for DM. I'm not saying this is a guarantee of a good quality dog but it sure puts the odds in your favor in getting a good puppy. There are tons of good breeders both working and show line that follow the German breeding regulations.


I found it, it's on another page...there are some OFAs, some DM tests. One dog they listed as DM clear and with a good OFA score on hips, I looked it up in the OFA database and it only showed DM, with no hip scores. I double checked a few others and they are in the OFA database with "good/normal". So there is some testing, not everything on all dogs, but as far as I could tell.

Since Castlemaid already said it, when I was breeding goats, it was surefire sign when someone was saying "such and such accomplishment in the pedigree", or some famous animal in the pedigree 3 or 4 generations back. For me, that's a sign that they are riding on the coat tails of ancestors who are what small percentage of this animal. I think the breeding dogs should be proven in their own right before they even consider breeding.

I never bought a goat because there was a top ten milker 3 or 4 generations back in the pedigree...or because it was the great grandson of a national champion.


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## Ross Faverty (Mar 10, 2017)

Thank you all very much for your input. Before I had a chance to check for responses the breeder actually reached out me over the phone. 

I asked her about the puppies being taken from their mother at 5 weeks and she said that was a mistake in the email - it will be 6 weeks. The mother had her puppies early, while with the breeders trainer so the mother and the puppies are staying with the trainer for as long as possible. The trainer cannot keep the puppies past 6 weeks. She acknowledged it wasn't something she was comfortable with. She also said that she would make arrangements for me to drive over to OH and meet the mother and puppies if I wanted to.

I discussed the healthy checks on the dogs and she says she has hip and elbow scores of normal for both parents and DM. She advised that the provides a 26 month puppy guarantee on all her dogs for genetic disorders and will replace the puppy if any are found. She said that in her years of breeding she has never had to replace a puppy. 

I had never heard of the breeder picking the puppy for you before, that is an interesting approach. My parents and I always picked our own but my mum knew what she was doing and what to look for. 

re the pedigree database its back up this morning so I will review and see what I can find. 

We are not looking for a show or working dog, just a good healthy, family GSD with the black and tan or red coat.


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## Erica0629 (Dec 21, 2016)

You came on here looking for advice because you were already concerned with red flags for this breeder...others shared the concern, you should heed the warnings given by others. It is your choice but I would hate to see you post down the road about issues that you could have avoided. Good luck on your search for a puppy I hope things work out for you and your wife


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ross Faverty said:


> Thank you all very much for your input. Before I had a chance to check for responses the breeder actually reached out me over the phone.
> 
> I asked her about the puppies being taken from their mother at 5 weeks and she said that was a mistake in the email - it will be 6 weeks. The mother had her puppies early, while with the breeders trainer so the mother and the puppies are staying with the trainer for as long as possible. The trainer cannot keep the puppies past 6 weeks. She acknowledged it wasn't something she was comfortable with. She also said that she would make arrangements for me to drive over to OH and meet the mother and puppies if I wanted to.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I find this a little hard to believe. A reputable breeder who can't plan any better than to have their heavily pregnant bitch sent off somewhere that is unable to keep her to the full time she needs to spend with her puppies should she have them while in their care? Just doesn't ring true. For me that amounts to either irresponsibly poor planning or lies, either of which is basically a deal breaker for me.

LOTS of people think their breeder doesn't need to title their dogs ECT ECT ECT because they only want a pet, they don't want to show or compete, so why get a dog that is proven somehow.

Why? Because it shows the dogs have been tested, it shows the breeder's commitment to the breed and it shows they truly know what their stock is made of. So that means the puppies are going to have more predictable and reliable temperaments, and therefore, make better pets. Don't fall for this trap of, I only need a pet so I will just go to a "pet" breeder. If you think you are saving money, you may wind up spending that money in spades on vets and trainers down the road


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I've traveled to rally trials quite a bit with my young dog. When I take him someplace new, sometimes I learn something new about him.

Having your dog on your own property day to day, maybe even living in a kennel, tells you much, much less about that dog. How does it react to stress? What stresses the dog out? What are the dog's weaknesses? Are they the same weaknesses as the dog they are being bred to?

I am not a breeder, and an actual breeder could probably say something way more intelligent about this issue than me. My youngest dog's breeder did get a tracking title and a BH on his sire but the vast majority of the sire's titles were in AKC- and he competed to pretty high levels in AKC, he had a UDX--is there anything after Utility? I'm not sure.

What does that mean? Among other things I'm pretty sure there is a judge's exam in every single AKC obedience routine, so a new stranger touched this dog every time and shyness or aggression would disqualify. That's what I mean about learning about the dog. Someone's dog in the backyard doesn't get tested like that. The untested one is not the one you want for a pet, because what happens when your kid's friends come over or your neighbor comes over or whatever, you want to know what this dog is made of, that it will be a good family companion.

I don't think the testing and titles have to be schutzhund, there are tons of performance venues to title a dog and doing it requires the person to bring their dog into these crowded buildings, travel, stay in hotels, ect ect ect. After you have done all that you know a lot more about what your dog is made of.

And lastly, I just feel strongly when you have a choice, the right choice is to support the breeders who are working so hard to really truly better the breed and not just scrape by at a bare minimum to make money off puppies.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

There are many very reputable breeders that we can recommend to you, if you think something is weird then it probably is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

6 weeks old at adoption is the only red flag I would need to NOT pursue a pup from them. The others are already mentioned. Your call, you have gotten good advice.


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## ARshuter (Mar 3, 2017)

Cowboysgirl wrote: Don't fall for this trap of, I only need a pet so I will just go to a "pet" breeder. If you think you are saving money, you may wind up spending that money in spades on vets and trainers down the road


Heed these words. My first GSD I didn't listen and bought one cause I just wanted a pet. At 2 years old I had to have his first hip operated on. At 3 1/2 the other. After all that expense I had to have him put down at 5 years old. He developed an infection after the second operation and several vets could not get it under control, so I had to make the hardest decision of my life, trust me it isn't fun. Yes this could happen to any dog but chances are more in your favor with a breeder that cares.


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## Ross Faverty (Mar 10, 2017)

Thanks everyone, after further review and talking with the breeder again my gut just keeps telling me something isn't right here so I'm walking away. Taking the pups away from the mother at 6 weeks just doesn't sit well with me and as someone already mentioned; the breeder if they were responsible enough wouldn't have had the mother away so close to the expecting date. Also She could not arrange for me to meet to the mother and puppies, said the trainer wouldn't allow that so again - MAJOR red flag there and I'm out. 

The search continues....

Thanks again everyone!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Ross!

If you tell us what state you are in & give us a little more information, there are many here that can steer you towards a good breeder!


 *What activities or sports do you plan on doing with him/her.

*What type of lifestyle do you have that will include the dog?

*Tell a little about yourself/your family!


*What is your price range? (usual is $1,600 to $3,000)


*What state are you in and how far are you willing to travel (hours)?


*Are you willing to have a dog shipped?

Here are some good reading materials!
(German Shepherd and Schutzhund Articles, by Wildhaus Kennels ) 


[FONT=&quot]Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder

German Shepherd Guide - Home



Moms [/FONT]


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Did you say you are in Ohio? Isn't that where @selzer is? Her dogs might be a nice fit for you. If not or if she does not have puppies she might at least know some other breeders to recommend. Hers are West German Show line which is mostly the type you were looking at and kind of sound like you want.

If you search something like "west german showline breeders" or "reputable west german showline breeders" on here it has been discussed at length and you might be able to find one


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Even if you don't want to show or work your dog it is still important to get a dog from lines that have been shown or worked and proven by getting titled. 
What you have said is something that most pet buyers say when they want to buy a cheaper puppy from a not so great breeder. And I'm not in any way trying to put you or anyone else who thinks that way down, heck I thought the same exact thing not long ago. 
Keep doing just what you're already doing, researching breeders and asking questions, get educated so you can make the best possible decision. Visit lots of breeders and get an idea for what you like and don't like.
In order to get most working and show titles the dog has to be put through tons of training and tests that show the character and temperament of the dog. A "pet" breeder rarely does this. The breeder that actively trains and titles their dogs knows their dogs very well, how they react to different and stressful situations and how they compare to other dogs. 
I think you made a really good decision not going with that breeder, huge red flag that you could not get to see mom or puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are two show line litters expected at Hollow Hills in Clarks Summit. She has dogs with great temperaments and health. Beth is super knowledgeable and open.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Did you say you are in Ohio? Isn't that where @selzer is? Her dogs might be a nice fit for you. If not or if she does not have puppies she might at least know some other breeders to recommend. Hers are West German Show line which is mostly the type you were looking at and kind of sound like you want.
> 
> If you search something like "west german showline breeders" or "reputable west german showline breeders" on here it has been discussed at length and you might be able to find one


LOL I just mentioned "Selzer's" dog on "BoxerForum." 

Sometimes people do want to expand there horizons and "Selzer's" dogs sound like they would be good "intro" for "Boxer" owners.


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## Ross Faverty (Mar 10, 2017)

*What activities or sports do you plan on doing with him/her.
Running, walking, hiking, biking, agility possibly, love playing football (soccer with GSD's too).

*What type of lifestyle do you have that will include the dog?
Bring the dog out with us as much as possible.

*Tell a little about yourself/your family!
(no kids...yet) Both my wife and I work full time but I work from home - I'm pretty active and enjoy physical exercise. We have a cat and 9lb 8yr old female (spayed) Pomeranian. I grew up with GSD's my whole life. Last year put down our rescue gsd so not we are ready for a new dog but would like a puppy this time.

*What is your price range? (usual is $1,600 to $3,000)
under $2k


*What state are you in and how far are you willing to travel (hours)?
Indiana - would drive 3-4 hours one way

*Are you willing to have a dog shipped?
No

Been talking with this breeder over the last couple days:
Vom Lebenstraum German Shepherds Lake Village, Indiana 46349

Seems promising


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Ross Faverty said:


> *What activities or sports do you plan on doing with him/her.
> Running, walking, hiking, biking, agility possibly, love playing football (soccer with GSD's too).
> 
> *What type of lifestyle do you have that will include the dog?
> ...


To be completely honest, if you're planning on doing a lot of outdoor activities I would go with a nice medium drive working line dog. They tend to be healthier overall and can do activities pretty much all day long. I've had a show line that got tired after 15 minutes of light play and needed 30 minutes of rest. It was pretty frustrating, plus her hips were weak and wobbly at 2.5 years old. Others might have had different experiences but that's mine. If you've had GSDs I think you'll be fine with a working line this time around.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You won't be able to touch a showline for under 3K. Huerta Hof in Illinois might be the only one who sells for less. 

You're price range would include most working lines. Lots of breeders in your area.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Okay, I'm jumping in here. Any of the different lines should be able to do the activities that the OP listed. I have a 7 year old ASL (hips are OFA Good) that runs in the woods, runs along a bicycle, plays ball until you tell her to stop. She definitely doesn't need to rest after playing for a few minutes, lol. She's very agile, and has been known to simply leap over the other dogs instead of going around them. Don't discount the other lines simply because someone else has a preference.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'll second what dogfaeries said. There are great dogs in all the lines, and great white german shepherds too, I have one. My white boy OFA'ed good/normal. 

My humble opinon is that all the lines have their strengths and shortcomings, and there are exceptional dogs in all of them


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## Glaicer (Aug 6, 2016)

American showlines and working lines will fall in your price range. Jackie Short-Nguyen is a member of this forum(her user name is Xeph), a highly ethical breeder, and currently has an American/German show litter that are priced under 2K I believe. Here's her website she is also highly active on facebook. She's posted pictures of the pups in the pictures forum.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Whatever you do, go see parents and pups before you make a decision. It will help a lot more than trying to differentiate info given on forums. Not that there isn't good info on forums, but there is also ludicrous info given on forums. The genetic strength of dog will have larger impact on future of dog than most other aspects. Most of the advice don't factor this in, breeding and whelping practices vary from breeder to breeder, some of the red flags listed by some are not necessarily valid, that's why I say go see the parents and pups. Some of the breeders recommended are really not different than this breeder in terms of genetics and basic breeding practices. The mixing of lines isn't a bad thing as it brings genetic diversity, as long as it doesn't involve extreme dogs. 
Good luck and maybe call some other breeders and pose your questions.


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## Mamashepherd (Apr 19, 2018)

I am the breeder in this conversation. I hope he found what he was looking for.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mamashepherd said:


> I am the breeder in this conversation. I hope he found what he was looking for.


Since you are here, some of us had questions. Would you mind answering some of them? It may clear up confusion in the future if members here are looking for puppies.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

You know, I would not want a breeder to pick a puppy for me. Thats just the way I am. I did fine on my first GSD, somehow I just knew. And besides, she picked me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> You know, I would not want a breeder to pick a puppy for me. Thats just the way I am. I did fine on my first GSD, somehow I just knew. And besides, she picked me.


Most breeders do the choosing. Or at best give you a choice of pup a or pup b. They know their puppies better then someone who has seen them for 5 minutes. I am good with that. Makes sense.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Carly, Sage and Scarlet were all picked for me by my breeder. Good stories to tell about the process of that with all three, but no time to tell it now. Got errands to run!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

If I don't get to choose from among available puppies I would not buy. Sure I listen the breeders opinion after I have chosen and might reconsider. The key word here is might.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I am glad you are going a different direction. It is an investment and there will always be a variety in a litter, you often get companion quality in a slamming titled litter so why breed to companion standards? I don't mean to knock the breeder in question who posted here. I mean in general. There are a lot of "hobby breeders" that are actually backyard breeders, but they do not know it. Plenty have the best of intentions, but just don't realize they don't in fact know what they are doing. And that fact will start showing in what they are producing at some point. I don't know Beth at Hollow Hills, but if she is in your area she is definitely one that seems to have a ton of respect on this forum, across the board. I'd go that way, "knowing" the ones on this forum who post about her, and knowing their knowledge and experience.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

The only way I would let the puppy buyer pick their puppy, is if there is more than one puppy that I feel is suitable for the type of home they will be. I do list puppy buyers in order of deposit, but, the first buyer might be for a male working puppy, and second might be a male companion. I wouldn't be choosing between the same puppies for both of these homes. My focus is to place the puppy into the home that closest matches what I see in the pup with what they are planning on doing with the pup. If I let a companion home buyer choose my top working prospect puppy, they are not going to be happy with the over the top pup, and the pup is going to have a difficult time and not be allowed to reach his full potential. Lose Lose for buyer, puppy and also for me.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

when we went for our first pup we discussed our plans with the breeder. She had two litters and we went to see both mothers. I know it is hard to tell a lot about a do in one meeting but we preferred the behavior of one mom over the other. The breeder and her staff all knew the disposition of the parents and were sure we'd do well..and they were right. 

Our second, I chose a pup but asked the breeder her thoughts on the gal. She gave me a bit more information about her behavior and temperament and then I asked her to reserve the pup for me.


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## Ahardebeck (Apr 24, 2018)

I just happened to stumble upon this post and while I don't normally comment on forums, I feel fairly qualifed to say something in regards to this, since I have actually gotten one of this breeder's dogs!

Nothing I say may change the OPs gut feeling, and everybody needs to make the decision they feel comfortable with, but for any future readers, I will say that she is a very dedicated breeder who pours all her time and energy into her beautiful dogs. She has always been available to answer any concerns or questions I had about my dog. Callie was the most intelligent, athletic, healthy, beautiful dog I have ever owned, and she had an awesome temperament! She was my dream dog! A tragic accident took her from me recently, but I'm saving up to buy another GSD puppy, and I'm going back to get another one from Von Hoene Heritage Shepherds. 

I would recommend going to talk to Jennie personally if you have concerns about her testing practices and see her dogs first before forming a negative opinion of her!


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