# When it comes to 'pure-bred' paperless dogs



## APBTLove

I always find it a little funny.. not that I have a problem with dedicating rescue to one breed, but because when a dog has no papers, who are you to say it is pure bred, and how can you be sure?

I mean, when it comes to GSDs, they could be a mix of many breeds and still look 'pure'. Mixes with:
Malinois 
Tervuren
Shiloh Shepherd
King Shepherd
Other Northern breeds (I.E Husky, Malamute, Elk Hound etc.)
And dogs who might have a Husky grandsire, but the grandam, sire/dam were both pure GSD can look like a GSD, but most certainly is not. 

Even a shepherd/collie can look like a pure shepherd as a pup. 

Edited by Admin. See below. Jean

Like I have done before, seen litters of puppies where one or two could so easily be passed as a GSD, but the rest are odd-colored mutts... however, if I wanted, I could have posted those two pups here because they had the general GSD look and colors, their ears were even starting to stand, but they were 1/4 cattle dog. 

Jaeger, my GSD with AKC papers.. I do not even feel SURE he's pure because his blood is only tracked a few Gens back.

Just me sharing my random thoughts for the day  No real questions or debate, I just feel it's silly that if my King Shepherd looks GSD enough, he is considered pure by the rescue section. And it always bugs me that I don't see people here say "You can never tell for sure without papers."


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## Emoore

Our rescue does GSDs and high-GSD mixes. If it looks Shepherdy enough that someone in the market to adopt a GSD will adopt it, it's in.


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## Whiteshepherds

Well you can't ever really be sure without papers, but isn't that a given?


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## Jessiewessie99

My shelter has the volunteers and staff read up on all the breeds so when a dog comes in we will be able to post the right breed and give people information in case they are interested in a certain dog we will be able to tell them what they are getting into.

Recently there was a 3 month old Sable German Shepherd at my shelter. He was a light Sable one, but everything about him screamed GSD. At most shelters or rescues(all breed ones) he would have been listed as a a "GSD/Husky Mix" or "GSD Mix".My shelter is a all breed rescue, but they are pretty darn accurate when it comes to guessing breeds, even guessing what a dog's mix is.


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## APBTLove

Whiteshepherds said:


> Well you can't ever really be sure without papers, but isn't that a given?


Yep. That's why I think it's odd that here and other sites, their rescue sections say "Pure Bred *breed*'s ONLY".
With rescues, you can never be SURE they are PURE BRED unless they came with papers, so that little rule just makes little sense.. Maybe "Dogs who look like pure *breed*'s ONLY."


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## Rerun

Jessiewessie99 said:


> My shelter has the volunteers and staff read up on all the breeds so when a dog comes in we will be able to post the right breed and give people information in case they are interested in a certain dog we will be able to tell them what they are getting into.
> 
> Recently there was a 3 month old Sable German Shepherd at my shelter. He was a light Sable one, but everything about him screamed GSD. At most shelters or rescues(all breed ones) he would have been listed as a a "GSD/Husky Mix" or "GSD Mix".My shelter is a all breed rescue, but they are pretty darn accurate when it comes to guessing breeds, even guessing what a dog's mix is.


The irony here is that you really have no idea how accurate they are given that they are mixes and in a shelter with no birth record or parents present. They can think they are accurate as long as the day is, but that "sable shepherd" very well could be a GSD/husky mix, or not even a GSD mix at all.


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## Jessiewessie99

Rerun said:


> The irony here is that you really have no idea how accurate they are given that they are mixes and in a shelter with no birth record or parents present. They can think they are accurate as long as the day is, but that "sable shepherd" very well could be a GSD/husky mix, or not even a GSD mix at all.


He was a GSD, I even looked up Light sable GSDs and he looked just like them. Also, some of the dogs that come in do come with papers.

There are those dogs that are indeed purebred GSDs such as these:
Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

The puppy at my shelter had the same coloring as this one:
Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles


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## APBTLove

Jessiewessie99 said:


> He was a GSD, I even looked up Light sable GSDs _and he *looked* just like them_. Also, some of the dogs that come in do come with papers.


That's what I mean, you can go off of looks all day - bloodlines can't be seen. My dog, Sparkles, could SO easily be shown in a group of Lhasa Apso's, but she is a Pomeranian/Shih-Tzu mix.

Looks can give you an idea, but you can be completely wrong.


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## Jessiewessie99

Nothing about him gave off Husky. Before him was a 8 months old GSD Mix who I can tell had Husking in her. She had the husky eyes and markings.


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## Rerun

Jessie I think you are missing the point of the thread.....


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## Jessiewessie99

Rerun said:


> Jessie I think you are missing the point of the thread.....


No I am actually not. I ma not saying every dog that comes into a shelter that has no papres is indeed a purebred, but sometimes they can be a purebred even without papers.


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## APBTLove

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No I am actually not. I ma not saying every dog that comes into a shelter that has no papres is indeed a purebred, but sometimes they can be a purebred even without papers.


Well yes, of course pure animals end up in shelters - but what might look 100% german shepherd can very well be a high-content mix. I've seen a husky/wolf/GSD mix that look exactly like a GSD with pointier ears and blue eyes.. if not for those two characteristics he would have looked like a poorly bred BGSD..


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## Jessiewessie99

APBTLove said:


> Well yes, of course pure animals end up in shelters - but what might look 100% german shepherd can very well be a high-content mix. I've seen a husky/wolf/GSD mix that look exactly like a GSD with pointier ears and blue eyes.. if not for those two characteristics he would have looked like a poorly bred BGSD..


I am a member of another GSD board and another member posted something about her uncle breeding GSDs with blue and green eyes. Of course he was breeding other breeds to create the "Ultimate Guard Dog" or something like that. So those were probably mutts.

Yep, being a poorly bred dog can make a purebred one look like a mix.


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## GSDElsa

Well, I think the only reason websites like this say "purebreds only" is because it is a GSD board and if they allowed, say, what appears to be PB labs, poodles, rotties, or any other mix it would simply become out of control and there would be a thousand posts a week. So only dogs that APPEAR to be PB are allowed.

As far as breed rescues...maybe they are out there, but I don't know any that exclusively do one breed and will never take another dog. I personally love the idea of breed rescues because every breed has very different personalities and characteristics and I think it's great that you have a group of people who have an expertise and genuine love for a certain "type" of dog. Benefits everyone around. 

As far as you "cannot tell for sure without papers"...well, then there would be virtually no rescue section at all. I guess it's all about balance. 

Only allowing papered dogs would leave too many out in the cold. Allowing any mixes in would make it overwhelming and create too much of an influx.


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## novarobin

Even with papers you can't always be sure


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## GSDElsa

novarobin said:


> Even with papers you can't always be sure


That is true! Don't forget mama can be knocked up by more than one dog!


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## APBTLove

novarobin said:


> Even with papers you can't always be sure


Yep. 
And people are known to 'hang' papers... A certain kennel claiming to produce XXL 'pitbulls' does this, they used a PRESA CANARIO stud but listed one of their males as the sire.. Ridiculous..


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## APBTLove

GSDElsa said:


> Well, I think the only reason websites like this say "purebreds only" is because it is a GSD board and if they allowed, say, what appears to be PB labs, poodles, rotties, or any other mix it would simply become out of control and there would be a thousand posts a week. So only dogs that APPEAR to be PB are allowed.
> 
> As far as breed rescues...maybe they are out there, but I don't know any that exclusively do one breed and will never take another dog. I personally love the idea of breed rescues because every breed has very different personalities and characteristics and I think it's great that you have a group of people who have an expertise and genuine love for a certain "type" of dog. Benefits everyone around.
> 
> As far as you "cannot tell for sure without papers"...well, then there would be virtually no rescue section at all. I guess it's all about balance.
> 
> Only allowing papered dogs would leave too many out in the cold. Allowing any mixes in would make it overwhelming and create too much of an influx.


I agree with a lot of what you said... However, the forum I moderate has many members, very active, and the rescue section is open to all breeds and even non-dog rescues... And it's very easily managed. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't have breed rescues - I love the fact we do.. however I think it should be worded differently, 'pure-bred only'.. there is no way to tell if the dog is PURE. 

It's like when someone posts a picture of their dog and asks if it looks pure, people say "Yeah, certainly a pure bred." because it has the typical color and conformation of a GSD... But who knows what it's grandparent or parent may have been.. I know a pit dog/BYB GSD mix, she looks (if I were to guess) like a chow mix. Very poofy, broad muzzle, purple splotching on the tongue, tight feet.. But I've seen both parents. 

The whole thing is simply a pet peeve of mine... to call something you can't prove 'pure'.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well what words would you use?


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## allexblake

Yes exactly, what would you like me to call Ginger? A mute because we dont have papers on her? I saw both her parents and the litter before taking her. She is "pure breed" in our eyes and is adorable. No one has ever asked if she is pure breed at all. We dont care what bloodlines she comes from either. From everything we have read and the research we have did she is a "pure shepherd", from the way she acts and her mannerisms. We also have a mini daschund wo papers. So she is a mute also? She is very much pure breed. You can tell "mutes" and pure breed apart by looking at their colors and body build. Not sure why a member has an avatar of a pit in the GSD forums and talking about pits anyways. Looks as if your promoting pits.


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## Jessiewessie99

allexblake said:


> Yes exactly, what would you like me to call Ginger? A mute because we dont have papers on her? I saw both her parents and the litter before taking her. She is "pure breed" in our eyes and is adorable. No one has ever asked if she is pure breed at all. We dont care what bloodlines she comes from either. From everything we have read and the research we have did she is a "pure shepherd", from the way she acts and her mannerisms. We also have a mini daschund wo papers. So she is a mute also? She is very much pure breed. You can tell "mutes" and pure breed apart by looking at their colors and body build. Not sure why a member has an avatar of a pit in the GSD forums and talking about pits anyways. Looks as if your promoting pits.



She has a GSD.


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## Konotashi

allexblake said:


> Yes exactly, what would you like me to call Ginger? A mute because we dont have papers on her? I saw both her parents and the litter before taking her. She is "pure breed" in our eyes and is adorable. No one has ever asked if she is pure breed at all. We dont care what bloodlines she comes from either. From everything we have read and the research we have did she is a "pure shepherd", from the way she acts and her mannerisms. We also have a mini daschund wo papers. So she is a mute also? She is very much pure breed. You can tell "mutes" and pure breed apart by looking at their colors and body build. *Not sure why a member has an avatar of a pit in the GSD forums and talking about pits anyways. Looks as if your promoting pits*.


Why does that matter? I have a Pom in my avatar and post pics of him all the time. Does that mean I should be kicked off the GSD board, simply because Ozzy isn't a GSD? 
And I imagine she used those examples because there are a lot of dogs that look like pit bulls, and there's a wide spectrum of what a pit bull should look like. I've seen some "APBTs" that look nothing like what a pit bull should be. Short, fat, almost bulldog, funky looking dogs. Not saying GSD mixes aren't common, but pit bull mixes appear to be most common. Plus, there is a very close resemblance between the pedigreed and papered APBT she posted and the rescue that could very well be a mix.


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## selzer

I agree that you cannot truly call it a purbred without papers to back it up. 

But it makes sense for the rescue section to draw the line somewhere. Is it possible that a purebred shep will fall through the cracks because it is a dwarf, or has a happy tail, or has floppy ears and a big white splotch on the chest? I suppose it is possible. 

But, it has been determined that they can only keep up with those dogs that most closely resemble purebred GSDs. I think it does no one any good to overstretch your resources to include everything with a hint of shep in it. 

Then people say, you can find nice sheps in rescue, and they go over and see a bunch of pit bull /gsd mixes, lab/gsd mixes, hound/gsd mixes, and they quickly believe that rescues are full of mixed dogs or very poorly bred dogs. 

If you can rehome 100 dogs by limiting it, or leaving it wide open and find homes for only 50, which is more correct? 

As for APBTlove having a pit and using pits in some of her posts, or even promoting pitties, I see nothing wrong with that. I think Shattering Glass has dals, not sure she even has a GSD, but no one sees a problem with that.


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## MaggieRoseLee

APBTLove said:


> Yep. That's why I think it's odd that here and other sites, their rescue sections say "Pure Bred *breed*'s ONLY".
> With rescues, you can never be SURE they are PURE BRED unless they came with papers, so that little rule just makes little sense.. Maybe "Dogs who look like pure *breed*'s ONLY."


It's not 'odd' at all.

Millions of dogs are killed in our shelters every year.

Millions. Mixed breed and purebred, healthy and sick, old and young. Millions.

We can't save them all. Particularly on this site. This GERMAN SHEPHERD site. So the decision was made a long time ago that due to the fact there is another really great site that IS used to post any and all dogs (petfinder) as well as other rescue group sites, THIS site would focus on the breed it is called for, the German Shepherd breed.

And YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!!!!! You can't tell a mix if it's got alot of GSD in it, or a little or all wolf or all Husky/Malinois or or or . That's the point! There are tons and tons and tons of mixes with no papers/history that makes it impossible to tell the amount of GSD (if any?). So we could have THOUSANDS more dogs listed on this site.

Thousands.

Thousands.

Then what would happen, is all the ones that are all GSD or as close to all GSD as we can tell by seeing will get lost amidst all the THOUSANDS of mixes that would now be listed.

If you are active on our rescue board, you will see that with only GSD's being allowed to be posted there are tons, and we still have some killed in shelters cause there aren't enough homes for them. 

This is a German Shepherd board for people who love the breed and support the breed and come to look for GSD's. Does it make GSD's 'better' than other dogs that we only post them here? It's not a judgement call on which dog is 'better'. Heck if you love pitbulls you KNOW how wonderful they are. If you own poodles they are the love of your life and you know that too! That's wonderful!

But the goal and intent of this board/forum is GERMAN SHEPHERDS. To be able to pull out any GSD's that can be located in shelters/rescue so THEY can be highlighted and focused on at one site with one goal and tons of members with the same love.

When the day comes that 100% of the GSD's are saved on this board all the time, and 100% GSD's are no longer being killled in shelters so no longer need a place like this...............then the subject may be addressed at that time. 

Though I can't imagine our Rescue site ever being completely empty of GSD's needing homes (be nice though).


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## LaRen616

That was an excellent post MRL, I completely agree with you and I believe you worded it perfectly.

:thumbup:


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## MaggieRoseLee

APBTLove said:


> .............The whole thing is simply a pet peeve of mine... to call something you can't prove 'pure'.


I just read that and now a bit confused. 

Would you prefer we limit the dogs that are posted even more to those that only have papers? That way we would know they were 'pure'.

Or do you have a better way to word it so the end dogs listed here would be the same (what we currently call 'purebred') but you wouldn't be as confused.


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## Deuce

LaRen616 said:


> That was an excellent post MRL, I completely agree with you and I believe you worded it perfectly.
> 
> :thumbup:


Agreed.


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## JakodaCD OA

so should we have a section called "it looks like a german shepherd?" 

This site is dedicated to german shepherds and owners of ALL breeds are welcome.


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## Cassidy's Mom

JakodaCD OA said:


> This site is dedicated to german shepherds and owners of ALL breeds are welcome.


BUT - this is in the rescue forum, and since the rescue forum is for GSDs only, why are we comparing pictures of pitbulls?  That doesn't have anything to do with the question (yet again - this has been asked and answered numerous times) of why we only allow postings of dogs that are or appear to be purebred GSDs, which MRL answered perfectly.


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## Emoore

I thin APBTLove was just wanting to start a philosophical discussion about how we say a dog in a shelter is purebred, or we say that a certain rescue specializes in purebreds, when in reality most of these dogs don't have papers. And even the ones who do have papers. . .. we all know how easily those can be faked or cheated. So I *think* that the point she was trying to make is that you never really know if a dog is pure or not. She wasn't saying that we should have breed-specific rescue or breed-specific boards or whatnot, just trying to philosophize a bit.


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## JonnyRico

APBTLove said:


> .. there is no way to tell if the dog is PURE.
> 
> It's like when someone posts a picture of their dog and asks if it looks pure, people say "Yeah, certainly a pure bred." because it has the typical color and conformation of a GSD... But who knows what it's grandparent or parent may have been.. I know a pit dog/BYB GSD mix, she looks (if I were to guess) like a chow mix. Very poofy, broad muzzle, purple splotching on the tongue, tight feet.. But I've seen both parents.
> 
> The whole thing is simply a pet peeve of mine... to call something you can't prove 'pure'.


 
if it looks like a gsd... and acts like a gsd.. maybe it is a gsd?!? lol. 

Just a thought... my GSD (or possibly a gsd mix ) does not have papers. She was from an accidental litter. I have seen both her parents... both clearly "looked" like gsd's. So because she doesn't have papers, I shouldn't call her a PB?

What if we were to apply that to people? Can a Irishman, call himself Irish, if he doesn't have a geneology report?... Afterall, his great-great-great grandmother could have been Scotish, right?


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## LaRen616

JonnyRico said:


> if it looks like a gsd... and acts like a gsd.. maybe it is a gsd?!? lol.
> 
> Just a thought... my GSD (or possibly a gsd mix ) does not have papers. She was from an accidental litter. I have seen both her parents... both clearly "looked" like gsd's. So because she doesn't have papers, I shouldn't call her a PB?
> 
> What if we were to apply that to people? Can a Irishman, call himself Irish, if he doesn't have a geneology report?... Afterall, his great-great-great grandmother could have been Scotish, right?


hahaha


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## Wilhoit

Perhaps the "context" might help with how we understand a GSD as a GSD. I was blessed to receive a GSD from a rescue. He looked like a GSD and more importantly acted and trained like a good GSD, so in the context of what I wanted in a dog, he was definitely a GSD. I would never have claimed, though, that he was purebred to the GSD fanciers, because in their context (breeding and showing), he was not. Maybe common sense would dictate that we use different definitions of GSD, so that those who want a rescue who is a GSD (in the way the dog reacts to them and can be trained and its appearance), can go to a rescue with the understanding that if it "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck," or a GSD for their purposes. A lot of us have something very specific in mind when we look for a dog, and if we want to go the rescue route, then it is a real blessing to have a breed rescue that offers that breed according to the "duck" definition, or maybe a mix with that breed.


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## RunShepherdRun

Many dogs that confirm to the breed standard both in structure and temperament have no proof of ancestry. 

In rescue, we do as Wilhoit described so well: Looks like one, acts like one, is one. 

For dogs to be entered in performance events, the SV and USA have a 'Gebrauchshunderegister' and 'Performance Register' for GSDs without proven ancestry (shelter GSDs, or breeders/owners didn't do the paperwork). Entry is decided by an SV judge or another SV/USA officer who examines the dog. Dogs in the Performance Register cannot be bred by SV/USA rules but can compete in SV/USA Schutzhund, herding, etc. The AKC has the ILP, indefinite listing privilege, upon written application with photos, for a dog to become eligible for its obedience competitions.

With SV/USA, the breed warden's supervision of breeding activities and litters is a measure to ensure the identity of dogs being bred. Not foolproof, but nothing is. The requirement for DNA ID in addition to tattoos speaks for a need to not rely on information provided by breeders alone. AKC relies on breeders' information only. The degree of certainty that a dog is who the papers state is thus higher with SV or USA papers compared to just AKC papers. For those who care about pedigrees.

Since there are so many GSDs in shelters, I personally don't feel any need to buy a pedigreed dog. My shelter GSD had a fantastic work ethic. If into competitive sports, I can apply for a paperless GSD to get into the Performance Register SV/USA, or with a mix/mutt, I can join DVG and compete to my heart's content. If that's what I want.


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## RunShepherdRun

PS 

I just quickly looked up the names of the two SV Leistungssieger (GSDs who won the Bundessiegerpruefung BSP, the SV's working dog Sieger trial) that were registered in the SV Gebrauchshunderegister, had no pedigree, and whose parents were unknown:

1970 Drago, Reg. 2232 (his birthday was unknown, too)
1980 Rex, Reg. 25848

Cheers to them and their handlers!


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## APBTLove

I'm a bit swamped at the moment.. can't reply to everyone right now, but I'll point out the reason I use the pit pictures - because I have permission to use them from their owner, and the other dog who looks just like the pure APBT is one I am dealing with and I took the picture. I don't have GSD pics (that I have permission to use) that would fit in with the point I'm trying to make.. and the Avatar dog (Lil Bit) is a dog I admire and have permission to use the picture. I ***** J's pics so much already I assumed everyone knew I had him.. lol

If I had permission to use pictures of a mixed dog who looked pure as a GSD who could be traced back to the first GSDs, I would use his pictures, but I don't.

Not comparing the two breeds to each other, but showing how alike they can look, but you just can't be sure.


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## APBTLove

Thank you for the long, well-worded post MRL!


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## APBTLove

JonnyRico said:


> if it looks like a gsd... and acts like a gsd.. maybe it is a gsd?!? lol.
> 
> Just a thought... my GSD (or possibly a gsd mix ) does not have papers. She was from an accidental litter. I have seen both her parents... both clearly "looked" like gsd's. So because she doesn't have papers, I shouldn't call her a PB?
> 
> What if we were to apply that to people? Can a Irishman, call himself Irish, if he doesn't have a geneology report?... Afterall, his great-great-great grandmother could have been Scotish, right?


You can call her whatever you want, you own her... But yes, it's possible there is another breed in there if the parents aren't papered... I have family who used the be BYBs with GSDs. They picked a mutt GSD up at the shelter and bred her. She had the usual B&T color, and conformation, yet she had a butterfly nose and a blue eye... and they bred her with an AKC registered male, and sold the pups are pure-bred, they looked it too.. Non of them had the nose or eye. As far as the owners knew, they were getting pure GSDs. And they might have been, but it's not usual for a GSD to look like a catahoula was mixed in there somewhere.

lol - I suppose he could call himself an Irishman.


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## APBTLove

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I just read that and now a bit confused.
> 
> Would you prefer we limit the dogs that are posted even more to those that only have papers? That way we would know they were 'pure'.
> 
> Or do you have a better way to word it so the end dogs listed here would be the same (what we currently call 'purebred') but you wouldn't be as confused.


Nope. Only saving dogs who have bits of paper with their names and their ancestors names on it is ridiculous -I wouldn't suggest such a thing.

I just think that the way it's SAID, not the fact that you guys sort through and pick the dogs who look most like a pure GSD, is odd. That only Pure-bred dogs can be posted, when you can't prove the dog is pure anyway.. the wording.

Told you there was not a whole lot of point to this post- just my random thoughts being spewed into the public, seems to have gotten a few people's hackles up. :crazy:


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## LaRen616

Sometimes I wish we could post GSD mixes in the rescue area but then again everyone might have a different idea of a dog that has GSD mix in them.

Like GSD/Husky mixes, they almost always carry traits of both breeds and are usually easily recognized as that mix.


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## APBTLove

LaRen616 said:


> Sometimes I wish we could post GSD mixes in the rescue area but then again everyone might have a different idea of a dog that has GSD mix in them.
> 
> Like GSD/Husky mixes, they almost always carry traits of both breeds and are usually easily recognized as that mix.


Yeah... There was a big old discussion about it, having a sub-forum for mixed or different breeds.. You could probably find it. I don't worry any more, I just take the ugly mutts to other forums' rescue sections.


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## APBTLove

Here it is..
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...127762-im-sure-its-been-asked-many-times.html


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## LaRen616

APBTLove said:


> Yeah... There was a big old discussion about it, having a sub-forum for mixed or different breeds.. You could probably find it. I don't worry any more, I just take the ugly mutts to other forums' rescue sections.


I remember that thread. I just love GSD/Husky mixes, I guess I almost consider them an actual breed. I would never own a Husky again, I probably wouldn't own a different GSD mix, I would either get another GSD or another GSD/Husky mix. I just think it is an excellent mix.


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## APBTLove

LaRen616 said:


> I remember that thread. I just love GSD/Husky mixes, I guess I almost consider them an actual breed. I would never own a Husky again, I probably wouldn't own a different GSD mix, I would either get another GSD or another GSD/Husky mix. I just think it is an excellent mix.


I've met one.. more personality than most people! Almost brought a Norwegian Elkhound/GSD mix puppy home - thank goodness I didn't have room...


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## gsdraven

APBTLove said:


> I don't worry any more, I just take the ugly mutts to other forums' rescue sections.


Come on now, that's just not necessary. Many of the people (including the moderators) on this board own several breeds including mutts. No one said they were ugly.

I do rescue, my rescue only takes in "pure-bred" GSDs or at least as pure bred as we can tell. We've taken some obviously mixed dogs but very rarely and we still can't help enough dogs. 

I don't think it's bad to focus on as close to pure-bred as you can get when talking about rescues and leave the mixes to someone else especially when you are talking about a breed that requires a certain type of owner/handler and are not your average dog.

I think the fact that no one can guarantee the dog is 100% pure bred is a given when talking about rescues.


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## Castlemaid

> I don't worry any more, I just take the ugly mutts to other forums' rescue sections.


Well isn't that a mature attitude! And what is wrong with having a GSD only rescue section on a GSD board? No one here that has a mixed breed, or other breed has ever, EVER felt that their dogs were not appreciated or valued any less than the GSD owner members. 

People come to a GSD board rescue section because they want to adopt a GSD. If they wanted a mix, there are a bazzillion-megazillion mixes easily adoptable through shelters everywhere.


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## selzer

Ya know, I think of all of what APBT has posted, if you read back through the entire thread, I really do not think she warranted the attacks/defensiveness aimed at her. And she makes one little comment, and the sharks set in calling her immature. 

I think the rescue people on here need to simmer down a little and stop taking everything so personally.

They attacked her for posting pictures that certainly illustrated her point. They attacked her avatar. They accused her of promoting pitbulls, like that is a crime. They took her post that had nothing to do with suggesting that we list mixes on the site, and made it sound like that is what she wanted. 

Her question is valid. The dogs cannot really be considered pure-bred because they are not registered with a kennel club. 

Why not just accept German Shepherd Dogs in the rescue section and not go on to qualify them as pure-bred. Dogs who do not appear to be all GSD, would be considered GSD-mixes and not allowed. 

So limit the rescue section to German Shepherd Dogs. No way are they purebred, because it cannot be proved, they do not have the papers from a registry that guarantees that status.


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## MaggieRoseLee

LaRen616 said:


> Sometimes I wish we could post GSD mixes in the rescue area but then again everyone might have a different idea of a dog that has GSD mix in them.
> 
> Like GSD/Husky mixes, they almost always carry traits of both breeds and are usually easily recognized as that mix.


This gets back to the fact that how mixed is mixed....

If you hang out in the rescue section at all, even with our current rule there are blurry lines and confusion about some dogs and being sure (or not) about if they are GSD's (or not). 

Truly, with so many GSD's that do look pure that our wonderful members DO find and are able to post here (btw, a ton of them seem to be listed as 'mixed' at the shelter to add to the confusion, specially the long coats, sables and blacks) I can't see that the current rule will ever change unless dog owners in the USA do some huge brain shift and start spaying/neutering or being more responsible to make sure there aren't accidental litters.


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## Jessiewessie99

Even if a dog has papers who to say how pure that dog is?It may have great great great great great great great great great great grandparents who were Huskies, or Malamutes.

I read somewhere, forgot where, that every breed of dog has at least .000099% wolf in them. I am not sure if that was the right number, it was something like that though. I don't know how true that is.:crazy:

And I think only 1 person commented on APBT's avatar and pitbull comparison. 

No one ever said mutts were ugly. Because they aren't. There are some usually looking dogs out there, but someone thinks they are beautiful!My previous dogs were Sheltie Mixes and never thought they were less of a dog. I got many compliments on how beautiful they were(from non dog people and dog people.). But to say just because a dog has no papers it is a mix when the dog clearly looks, acts, sounds, behaves like a certain breed.

Like Maggie said, most rescues and shelters don't realize how many colors GSDs come in. Most shelters and rescues when they get a Sable GSD they will call it a "GSD Mix" or black GSD a "GSD Mix" also. Dogs who are not bred to the standard will indeed look different than the dog that is bred to the standard. I am white, so because I don't have papers to prove me being white means I am not white is a blind statement. Also not everyone finds the need to get their registered to prove its "pureness".


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## APBTLove

gsdraven said:


> Come on now, that's just not necessary. Many of the people (including the moderators) on this board own several breeds including mutts. No one said they were ugly.


I did - I didn't mean it as a demeaning comment. I own an ugly mutt too. Hey, I'm an ugly mutt. I guess you cannot hear the humor in my voice through text. 



Castlemaid said:


> Well isn't that a mature attitude! * And what is wrong with having a GSD only rescue section on a GSD board?* No one here that has a mixed breed, or other breed has ever, EVER felt that their dogs were not appreciated or valued any less than the GSD owner members.


Nothing at all - not the point of my post... My point was, well Selz said it very well. 



selzer said:


> Ya know, I think of all of what APBT has posted, if you read back through the entire thread, I really do not think she warranted the attacks/defensiveness aimed at her. And she makes one little comment, and the sharks set in calling her immature.
> 
> I think the rescue people on here need to simmer down a little and stop taking everything so personally.
> 
> They attacked her for posting pictures that certainly illustrated her point. They attacked her avatar. They accused her of promoting pitbulls, like that is a crime. They took her post that had nothing to do with suggesting that we list mixes on the site, and made it sound like that is what she wanted.
> 
> Her question is valid. The dogs cannot really be considered pure-bred because they are not registered with a kennel club.
> 
> Why not just accept German Shepherd Dogs in the rescue section and not go on to qualify them as pure-bred. Dogs who do not appear to be all GSD, would be considered GSD-mixes and not allowed.
> 
> So limit the rescue section to German Shepherd Dogs. No way are they purebred, because it cannot be proved, they do not have the papers from a registry that guarantees that status.


Thank you very much Selzer, and you have certainly gotten what I meant..


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Just a question - who are the rescue people in this thread?


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## Jessiewessie99

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Just a question - who are the rescue people in this thread?


I am. I volunteer at a animal shelter, and adopted a dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I meant who need to simmer down and not take things so personally. 

Because I think in general the ones who are volunteering were pretty factual, or just asked questions...I hope so anyway!


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## GSDElsa

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I meant who need to simmer down and not take things so personally.
> 
> Because I think in general the ones who are volunteering were pretty factual, or just asked questions...I hope so anyway!


I agree! There was only one really snotty comment on here about "why is there a pitbull in your avatar". I thought the rest were pretty informative and the "rescue people" (???) were not all all being snippy! Where the heck did that come from? Quoted examples, please!


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## JakodaCD OA

I think just because a dog has "papers" and is "registered" doesn't mean it's a purebred either, sure it may make the dog "legitimate", but I've seen alot of so called purebred dogs that certainly don't look purebred to me.

Yes, it bugs me to no end, to say go on Petfinder, look up GSD, and get a ton of GSD mixes, or dogs that no way have any gsd in them, that is the people 'labeling' them

I haven't seen any snooty comments from rescue people either. I think the thing is, if your talking about GSD's, why compare them with pits? We aren't a pit forum, we are a gsd forum.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's usually a duck or atleast a high content duck 

If a dog doesn't appeal to you, well pass on it, easy as that..In the end, Papers do not make the dog.


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## Wilhoit

May I say, as one of the "customers" of an excellent GSD rescue, that:

1.) If I had to wade through page after page of non-GSDs or partial GSDs when looking for my next GSD, I'd be very discouraged. BUT, we are all human (and have loving hearts), so when I see a few mixes or even the occasional non-GSD on rescue listings, I'm delighted that another deserving dog has a chance at a life. Please, though, keep the FOCUS on GSDs. This is such a help for reasons others have already mentioned.

2.) Since we are all human, allow me to say as well that I really look forward to hearing stories about that pom puppy, Ozzy, in addition to stories about Wolfie and the Beast, and everyone else's GSDs. I also enjoy reading comments from the point of view of the pit fancier because the comments do seem applicable to GSDs and this is the pit fancier's area of expertise.

The point I'm offering is just that perhaps we place our focus on GSDs, but not so exclusively that we cut out any mention of non-GSDs or mixes. We could think of it as a continuum, with the focus on the point on the line close to, but not at the end that is only GSDs, and certainly away from the other end, "anything goes." However, I do think the Rescue Section here ought to be for GSDs, both according to the "duck" definition and for the occasional papered GSD, just so we can help more of them more easily.


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## Jessiewessie99

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I meant who need to simmer down and not take things so personally.
> 
> Because I think in general the ones who are volunteering were pretty factual, or just asked questions...I hope so anyway!


Oh ok.lol


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## Jessiewessie99

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think just because a dog has "papers" and is "registered" doesn't mean it's a purebred either, sure it may make the dog "legitimate", but I've seen alot of so called purebred dogs that certainly don't look purebred to me.
> 
> Yes, it bugs me to no end, to say go on Petfinder, look up GSD, and get a ton of GSD mixes, or dogs that no way have any gsd in them, that is the people 'labeling' them
> 
> I haven't seen any snooty comments from rescue people either. I think the thing is, if your talking about GSD's, why compare them with pits? We aren't a pit forum, we are a gsd forum.
> 
> If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's usually a duck or atleast a high content duck
> 
> If a dog doesn't appeal to you, well pass on it, easy as that..In the end, Papers do not make the dog.


I agree. I couldn't help bu laugh at the High content duck.lol.

After all they are just papers.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Oh ok.lol


Go bake some brownies, Jessie!


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## ShenzisMom

Most pedigrees only go back 4-6 generations, yes? Even if the dog is papered you would have to go through alot of paperwork to go back, and back, and even if the dogs great x7 dam was a....beauceron for example, would it really matter? The blood is so diluted from that dog, like 1/14 or so(I'm not math major, can you tell!-or geneticist) does it really matter? I mean you might get the odd dog with double dews, I guess...
My point, and rambling, being that you never really know what is truely behind your animal unless you seriously look into it, and it takes alot of time and effort!
(I'm currently researching doberman pedigrees from euro decent and I'll tell you-its not easy going back 6 generations to see health issues, causes of death, conformation/working titles)


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## Jessiewessie99

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Go bake some brownies, Jessie!


I can't right now I am busy with my new Vet Assistant online course!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wilhoit said:


> The point I'm offering is just that perhaps we place our focus on GSDs, but not so exclusively that we cut out any mention of non-GSDs or mixes. We could think of it as a continuum, with the focus on the point on the line close to, but not at the end that is only GSDs, and certainly away from the other end, "anything goes." However, I do think the Rescue Section here ought to be for GSDs, both according to the "duck" definition and for the occasional papered GSD, just so we can help more of them more easily.


Pretty much ALL of us love all dogs and encourage any and all dog stories/tales/photos/movies/brags on ANY breed on this forum.

EXCEPT

There is only a very few places on this forum that we pull the 'must be a GSD' rule and that's in the Rescue section and I think the photo contest section (and even this allows other dogs in the picture as long as at least one is a GSD). Otherwise, that vast majority of the board welcomes any and all breeds all the time.


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## Jessiewessie99

*Off- Topic.*



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Go bake some brownies, Jessie!


I will make some tomorrow.

What do you guys prefer? Cake like brownies or Fudge brownies?


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## Wilhoit

MaggieRoseLee, Those sound like great rules--I'm going to feel very much at home!


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## PupperLove

Here's my theory as to why it would say purebred GSD's only.

When people are looking for a dog to adopt, some of them have a certain breed personality and look that they desire, myself included. So when they are shopping to get the look AND personality of a purebred GSD, they can go to a breeder and get it, go to a breed rescue and get it, go to a shelter and look for it, or look for it in other places. I think saying "purebreds only" regardless of whether or not they are truly 100% can help open the door for these "purebred dogs" to get to the homes of the people who are looking for them. I really wanted the look of a purebred GSD, to me they are drop dead gorgeous- and looking through tons of mixes got discouraging after a while, I have to say.

Whether or not the dog is ACTUALLY purebred is probably not that big of a deal. If someone is going to a rescue to adopt, they either love GSD's traits and/or love the look of them. Having a dog with papers is probably not a priority- Im sure if someone wanted to do confirmation, breed, etc, they would go to a reputable breeder instead. For instance my lab has papers but looks NOTHING like the dogs in the show ring. AT ALL. So he is either A. mixed, or B. Poorly bred, but still has papers. His papers say that he is purebred but is he really?? When there's 7 dogs in a kennel and they "accidentally must have mated when they wern't looking" who really knows....but he has papers!!!! I think a breed rescue is about putting dogs that fit the description of the breed into homes of people who WANT them and who are LOOKING for them.


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## selzer

MRL, I do not think this post EVER meant to include other dogs in the rescue section. 

Diane, I think the pit pictures were explained rather well when they were first posted, and even better later on. They illustrate a point, they are not being used to compare them to GSDs, except in how an unknown dog might resemble a purebred, but cannot be called a purebred. 

Anyone, why not just go with GSDs, why the diclaimer pure-bred, when the vast majority cannot be valid pure-bred dogs. 

Jean, my bad on attacking rescue people in general. I think that MRLs post that kind of confused this thread by going into why we do not want to post mixes, and other breeds, and then the posts about the avatar and pit bulls, followed by people jumping all over the ugly mutt statement -- that is what got me going. I too have had ugly mutts, and would not care if anyone called them that. I did not think that her one statement in her post required a general clammor, it is just a difference in how people talk. Not something to take personally. Like how I call kids brats or monsters -- other people are horrified. They would probably pop a vein if they heard what all my mother called us when we were little. 

Sorry for going off on you all.


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## APBTLove

JakodaCD OA said:


> I haven't seen any snooty comments from rescue people either. I think the thing is, if your talking about GSD's, why compare them with pits? We aren't a pit forum, we are a gsd forum.
> I wasn't comparing them TO bulldogs. I was using bulldogs as an example, because I have permission to use those pictures, but I do not have permission to use GSD pictures that would fit with the point I was trying to make.. The little black mutt bulldog is a rescue with no papers, she LOOKS full APBT, but who knows? Whereas the other, Envy, IS a pure APBT, no doubt about it. They even had the same colors... but I find it wrong to call Roxy (the mutt) an APBT with no proof.


Replies in red.


Selzer, you have my intent right again..


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