# my ols schuts club over run with labs & BC getting BH's?



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

to stop membership going to just the TD the club had to do something to survive and justify locking up much contested public space - they allowed BC's in to do the BH, these dogs are all old campainers that have run out of titles to get thru the AKC and frankly most get the BH in no time and look a whole lot smarter than the GSD's. they also are allowed to get a tracking title which they all get easy. most already have tracking titles.

the handlers only do it cos they want to keep training and getting titles just for titles sake.

are these BH and tracking leg legitimate titles recognised by the world schuts peeps (if there is such a thing) or just bits of paper printed out by the club??

sadly the club has mals doing actuall schuts titles, and mainly BC, labs....all over the field, the only gsd you really see are show dogs getting a breed survey on the schuts field cos i guess it makes there lame breed survey which any mutt from the pound could pass in terms of the temp test "feel" more german and real.

i actually got asked back to join but my ego and pride got in the way cos they shunned my puppy.

so sad when it becomes elitism versus survival and elitism loses, sad for the elitists that is.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Where I am, any dog that can do the sport can be in the sport. There were 4 Rottweilers there the day I went. Dalmatians would be really good at it.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

obviously nobody is going to take an adult bc/lab that and start it in protection work so they just "title" in BH and tracking, and i meant to say do all the obed pahse from 1 to 3. actually on trial daysas well.

i might add and they get judged and points from a regular schuts judge.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I believe in Europe the BH is a standard temperament and obedience test for all breeds.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

makes sense, i think it should actually be harder and less precision focussed, like actually take yr dog out in a busy public area with real vehicle traffic and random dogs and people everywhere. too much liability i guess. 

if it was possible i would love to be internetlly assessed in the MH? that seems like a more legit temp test than the BH imo.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I know SO many breeds that have BH's. Frankly, I am happy to see anyone working any dog in any sport. SchH is hard, takes a lot of work, commitment, and time. I am impressed with a title, even if it is "only" a BH lol. Our club has rotties, GSDs, a pit bull, and a boxer(Rotties are all titled, some all the way to SchH 3, GSD-BH, Boxer-BH, Pit Bull-Just joined). They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I love seeing different breeds and how they act. My TD is of the mindset-if the dog can do the work and likes it-they aren't going to get turned away. I know a lot of clubs aren't like that, and are more "purests," meh...whatever.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i was recently dissapointed to learn that some euro sports only allow certain breeds or registries to compete - i thought these orgs just had the best dogs just cos they had the best dogs, when you lock a dog out cos of breed/papers or who it is registered with is a big negative for working dogs.

we have stock dog trials here in open country, real tough challenges with big prize money at stake, best dog wins no matter what breed, nobody even asks what breed yr dog is, a stupid question really to true working dog folks. 

thats true competition which *makes breeders breed better not breeding cos pedigree papers are a form of currency*.

like asians that dominated martial arts by not allowing ****** to compete, a frind of mine finally got into a big title match and beat the unbeatable champ, they did not like it but in the end they raised their own standards to become competitive again, some lesson in their for the dog world.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Schutzhund is open to all breeds, registered and not-registered. I started with my shelter mixed breed rescue. Got me hooked on training and interested in getting a working line GSD.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I really don't understand the issue with a lab or bc getting a bh, ob, or tracking title? Anyone can enter a trial.........bh is pass or fail. Something any breed should be able to do! Protection work is another story...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Schutzhund is open to all breeds, registered and not-registered. I started with my shelter mixed breed rescue. Got me hooked on training and interested in getting a working line GSD.


Our club is the same - we welcome anyone with a dog able to do the work and those who was dedicated to the sport and club.

We currently have 1 ACD training with us and he has probably more drive than most of our GSD's! He's fun to watch work although he has yet to do any C phase work but will probably start that this fall.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I really don't understand the issue with a lab or bc getting a bh, ob, or tracking title? Anyone can enter a trial.........bh is pass or fail. Something any breed should be able to do! Protection work is another story...


Agree.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Seriously, why on earth would that be bad?

The more people get involved in sports, the better-known those sports become. The better-known they become, the more people get involved. It's a really positive cycle if you can get it started.

I would think this would be especially true for the protection sports, which often have to fight quite a few negative stigmas in public perception. Having more people, and more dogs of different breeds, involved in and representing those sports can only be a good thing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> Frankly, I am happy to see anyone working any dog in any sport.


Agree!

I just adopted a mixed breed dog and plan on taking her along to my club to see if she can do any of the phases. My dog, my time, my money....as long as the club is open to other breeds then who cares?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

x11, surely you've seen the wonderful old video of Mr. Murphy, the JRT? Surely in your view the sport has a place for a joyful little munchkin like Mr. Murphy, doesn't it?


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

..they're taking over the world. See this scary silent guard.
Showdog1 - YouTube


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gagsd said:


> I believe in Europe the BH is a standard temperament and obedience test for all breeds.


Yes. It doesn't matter what breed you have and what venue you compete in, you will need the BH first to be able to compete in anything.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

OMG terriers are a trip! They crack me up. It's really too bad they aren't bigger--they are such scrappy little monsters!! Although if they were bigger we'd all be in BIG trouble!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

ok i guess i was a bit worried by the other breeds appearing in larger numbers than the breed the sport/test was designed for in that club. i am not in it at all so not really my problem.

democracy rules, the more the merrier i guess, so be it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well....there was a thread about a GR doing the sport. Controversy all over that one: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4431-who-said-goldens-cant-do-schutzhund.html


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, now that's an interesting thread. Thank you for bringing it up -- I hadn't seen that one before and probably never would have found it without the link.

I haven't read through the whole thing yet (only on page 7 -- but I'll finish it!) but I'm gonna stick by what I said earlier: more participation can only be a good thing. And maybe these points were already made in that original thread, since there are almost 20 pages left for me to read there, but still:

-- it's tough to get new people hooked on a sport, or the dogs who are supposed to be good at that sport, if they aren't allowed to try it with the dogs they currently have. More than likely, they'll just go "pfft" and do another sport that's more inclusionary;

-- if the dogs for whom the sport was originally intended are indeed the best at it, then (a) they should be able to prove it on a fair field open to all competitors, and shouldn't need protectionism to look good; and (b) if and when they _do_ beat all comers, the people who are seriously hooked on that sport tend to get one of those dogs as their next competition dog (see also: border collies in agility, golden retrievers and Shelties in obedience, border-staffies in flyball);

-- apparently there's a problem with Schutzhund clubs folding for lack of interest/attendance, so if this helps get their membership up, hooray for them;

-- as I said earlier, protection sports can have a negative image in some quarters. The more people who do them (and learn about them, and develop firsthand experience with them and the dogs who participate), and the more non-traditional breeds show in them, the more that negative image is likely to be countered by better public perceptions.

Now, obviously that argument is considerably less convincing if you view Schutzhund as a breed worthiness test rather than a sport, but from what I've seen on this board, _nobody_ seems to think it's serving a valuable purpose as a breed worthiness test anymore. Either the title doesn't tell you enough about the dog, or the test has been watered down such that it's not a sufficient test of the dog's nerve, or it's pushing the breed toward flashier Malinois-style performances, or some other flaw... but I don't think I've seen anyone defending the current state of Schutzhund as a valid test of breed worthiness in the U.S.

So it's a sport. And if it's a sport, the sport rationales apply, and more participation is a very good thing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You want a BIG terrier try a Black Russian Terrier!! LOL now that's a BIG terrier. 

I've actually had some hands on experience with one and this video doesn't do these dogs justice. They are intimidating, booming bark, large size lots of presence...





 



GSDElsa said:


> OMG terriers are a trip! They crack me up. It's really too bad they aren't bigger--they are such scrappy little monsters!! Although if they were bigger we'd all be in BIG trouble!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> *it's tough to get new people hooked on a sport*, or the dogs who are supposed to be good at that sport,* if they aren't allowed to try it with the dogs they currently have*. More than likely, they'll just go "pfft" and do another sport that's more inclusionary;-- apparently *there's a problem with Schutzhund clubs folding for lack of interest/attendance*, so if this helps get their membership up, hooray for them;


I think it is addictive to certain personalities...those that don't mind getting discouraged over and over or are up for a good challenge! I started with a dog that didn't have 'it' and washed her as soon as it was evident. It wasn't fair to her to continue. I then looked for a breeding that would better suit what I wanted to be in the sport. You don't know what you don't know until you know, LOL!

--Not so much lack of interest/attendance but lack of good helperwork, clubs(venues to train at with a permanent trial field) and equipment expenses.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

"inclusionary" - is that a real word, no matter i like it and will adopt it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

x11 said:


> "inclusionary" - is that a real word, no matter i like it and will adopt it.


Can't wait to see how you will include it in your posts!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I think it is addictive to certain personalities...those that don't mind getting discouraged over and over or are up for a good challenge! I started with a dog that didn't have 'it' and washed her as soon as it was evident. It wasn't fair to her to continue. I then looked for a breeding that would better suit what I wanted to be in the sport. You don't know what you don't know until you know, LOL!
> 
> --Not so much lack of interest/attendance but lack of good helperwork, clubs(venues to train at with a permanent trial field) and equipment expenses.


Good points both. 

I don't have a SchH dog right now myself. Both of my mutts are way too soft (and one's outright fearful) -- it would honestly be abusive for me to even put them on the field. Whenever I see somebody say anything like "oh any dog can do Schutzhund, it's so watered down now," I secretly think "uh did you see the 293874923874 threads about 'help my dog can't do Schutzhund'?" Because no, all dogs definitely _can't_ do it, watered down or not!

But I'd _like_ to do it. I want to get a dog who can do it. And the reason I want to do it is because it looks like a whole lot of (slightly masochistic) fun. If it didn't look fun, or I thought everybody doing it was a big mean exclusionary jerk (which is what I used to think about the AKC, until a good friend kindly told me to pull my head out of my butt), I wouldn't be interested. That simple.

As for the lack of equipment/helpers/venues -- yes, but that all ultimately ties back to participation. I mean, look at how much equipment, space, and specialized staff a football team needs. That is a TON of money, time, and personnel. But football is really popular, so teams can get all that stuff together.

Agility takes a lot of expensive equipment and space too. But, again, it's popular, so people get together and make it happen.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

personally as a non-hacker i would prefer to see less focus on precision and n increase in level of difficulty of the tests. by that i mean harder tests where the dog can sort of do it in their own way and not have to be so precise.

i don't think any part of shuts routine in isolation is that hard (but i never tried it), hence the only thing left to stand out is precision, precision, precision. 

which imo = a specific type of dog temp, excellent training/support to get the dog there, that all means it becomes less about the breed and more about the individual dog, the trainer and the scene.

prolly makes no sense


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The AWDF scores were all over the place, and the judges obviously had sharp pencils... w/top teams participating. 
One of those top trainers complained about 3 points lost on the long bite(oops, I mean courage test). 3 points is a huge deal! 
Results


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thats exactly the point, haw,haw.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think that it is good that all dogs can and possibly do the BH. Great example of what a club can do, when it is done correctly. Great for the sport.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

In my clubs, we have GSD's, Mals, Rotties, Dobes, Boxers, Pit Bulls, American Bulldogs, Cattle Dogs and some mixed breeds from the shelter. Personally, I love working all the different breeds. 

As for participation, There are hundreds of people that want to handle their dogs, but very few who want to or are capable of catching dogs. Being a helper is an art of itself and requires tons of studying as well as practical application. Like Jane said, the majority of clubs fold because of lack of helper. There is currently a club that's on its way out a couple hours from me because of this very issue. It's members have been coming to us one by one. Unfortunately our club is very full and our training director has to turn them away now. We have three great helpers but can only work so many dogs in a day. So....


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

How much do paid helpers run? I saw $20/run on another thread but I have no idea if that's a standard rate or abnormally high or low or what.

$20/run works out to be... how much per hour?

Seems like with a little more publicity, if the demand is there, it ought to be possible to find people willing to work for that rate in this economy, whether or not they care a whit about Schutzhund.

Of course, "if the demand is there" is key. You'd need to be able to promise people a reasonably steady rate of employment for it to be worthwhile, if they didn't actually care about the sport for its own sake. But with sufficient demand, it seems like it certainly _ought_ to be possible.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> well....there was a thread about a GR doing the sport. Controversy all over that one: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4431-who-said-goldens-cant-do-schutzhund.html


Which was kind of stupid if you ask me 

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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The founder said that breeding FOR show or sport would lead to the demise of the breed.....the older I get, the smarter he seems....lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Merciel said:


> How much do paid helpers run? I saw $20/run on another thread but I have no idea if that's a standard rate or abnormally high or low or what.
> 
> $20/run works out to be... how much per hour?
> 
> ...


I've paid average of $30 a session(could be two turns, could be one depending on what you are working on) Also includes spotting the obedience phase. 

It isn't so much the cost of helperwork, but having the good,great helpers mentor others willing to carry on the craft. That takes so much time to get to the level of doing it on your own. And not many people are willing to let an inexperienced helper work their dog.

In my area, there are several good helpers, some don't get paid, others will take 'tips' and then there are the paid sleeves that people come from all over to train with. Still, there is a shortage of good helpers, so traveling 1 to 4 hours is normal.
Those paid sleeves are thankfully mentoring other up and coming helpers, but it is a talent and you need to know how to read the particular dog and timing is everything. That only comes with experience/and of course the physical condition of the helper is important. 

Where I pay to play, the helper/trainer works dogs 4 days a week and it is very, very tiring. And then he also competes, so he has to go elsewhere to have his dog worked. It is very demanding, I can see why good helpers are hard to come by!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Merciel said:


> _nobody_ seems to think it's serving a valuable purpose as a breed worthiness test anymore.


I do, but I personally don't breed or decide which dogs to buy based on a *single* indicator of breed worthiness and that's not unique to GSDs or Schutzhund. For example if I were looking for a flyball dog I would not purchase a dog solely on the number of points the parents have earned or their fastest times even though they'd have to be proven dogs in those regards. Because I enjoy doing SchH with my GSDs and want it to be fun and do respectably well, suitability based on pedigree is valuable to me.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Merciel said:


> from what I've seen on this board, _nobody_ seems to think it's serving a valuable purpose as a breed worthiness test anymore..


 


See, I look at schutzhund as nothing more than a breed survey. That's just for me though. I still think it's an important part of the GSD however to me it is not a sport. I do it because I feel it is important. That being said, if people with other breeds want to do it as a sport by all means go for it! IMO there are other sports out there that test your dog more
though.

I would be one of the helpers that works for tips. I don't get much but it's a nice gesture. Since I have became a helper, I have worked as little as three and up to six days a week. Now I don't have to pay for my dogs protection sessions(all the helpers work each others dogs for free) so I save money there, but have not even made enough money to maintain my gear. I do it because I love it! Honestly I like being on the bite side more than handling. I would love to be in a position where I could make enough money catching dogs all day to support my family. Even the part time job being a meat cushion for the local PD's K9 department doesn't help.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I've paid average of $30 a session(could be two turns, could be one depending on what you are working on) Also includes spotting the obedience phase.
> 
> It isn't so much the cost of helperwork, but having the good,great helpers mentor others willing to carry on the craft. That takes so much time to get to the level of doing it on your own. And not many people are willing to let an inexperienced helper work their dog.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that it would be easy. Just that _if_ there is sufficient demand (big if!) and _if_ that demand stays consistent over time, then I think there would be people willing to learn the craft. $30/run is a pretty decent wage.

There are a lot of people who do part-time work in other dog-related fields partly for money but also because they enjoy animals: dog walkers, pet sitters, part-time trainers. The skill threshold for doing these things is considerably lower, of course, and the demand is much higher because they're all catering to the pet market, but in a magical world where Schutzhund was as popular as agility, I think over time you _could_ start to see a shift. Good helpers could get paid for putting on seminars and teaching newbies. Again, IF there were demand and IF it stayed consistent over time.

It's purely a hypothetical, of course. I don't think the sport is anywhere near there yet. But wouldn't it be nice if it were?


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Mrs. K where are you? Out of curiosity, question for you: do club helpers in Germany get paid? Trial helpers? Or is the sport popular enough that there are always enough young people willing to learn and available to do helper work?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I do, but I personally don't breed or decide which dogs to buy based on a *single* indicator of breed worthiness and that's not unique to GSDs or Schutzhund. For example if I were looking for a flyball dog I would not purchase a dog solely on the number of points the parents have earned or their fastest times even though they'd have to be proven dogs in those regards. Because I enjoy doing SchH with my GSDs and want it to be fun and do respectably well, suitability based on pedigree is valuable to me.


This sort of ties into something else I was thinking about: namely, that increased popularity results in increased expertise on any given subject.

Like right now I don't know _anything_ about Schutzhund (which is probably pretty evident from my repeated clueless posts on the subject... yet here I am, not shutting up). I'm going to go see my first trial on Saturday. In the protection and tracking phases, I will have only the vaguest notion what I should be looking for or what differentiates a good performance from a great one, although I'll probably be able to spot the real disasters. In obedience, I expect I'll have a fair idea of what a good performance looks like, but the very fine nuances may escape me because Schutzhund obedience is different from AKC obedience in the details, and that might throw me a little.

I expect my husband is going to have basically no idea what's going on and won't be able to tell the GSDs from the Malinois. He's... not really a dog person.

The point I'm clumsily trying to get at is that you don't _know_ what's good or bad in any given sport unless you have some experience in it, and the more experience you have, the more you can see. This is why the Olympics always have former athletes commenting on the performances: because the average viewer isn't going to catch the nuances without help.

You don't develop experience without interest and opportunity to learn. Increased popularity of a given sport improves your chances of having both. And once you CAN see the nuances, and can evaluate a performance beyond the flat point score, it's much more likely that you're going to be able to make an informed, critical judgment about what you do or do not want in your sport dog.

Nobody goes "oh gee I would really like to get a crappy dog who's going to totally suck at this. _That's_ what I want. I'm just gonna run out and pay the big bucks for one of those." But apparently a fair number of people wind up doing exactly that, because _they don't know_ what they should be looking for beyond the "Schutzhund 1" on an import dog's papers. These people have the interest -- apparently enough interest to drop four or five figures on a dog. What they maybe haven't had is the opportunity to learn.

This board is a tremendous educational resource. I think it's absolutely wonderful and I'm exceedingly grateful to everyone who shares their information for the benefit of clueless noobs like me. But it's in no way a substitute for witnessing something firsthand and developing your own educated eye. For that, you need to see the dogs in person, and you need to be able to contrast great performances against good ones against all-out lousy ones.

The more dogs are out there doing Schutzhund -- and, yes, dogs of _all_ breeds, because it really does help to see how different structures influence performance if you see a greyhound and a pug attempting the same exercise back to back -- the better off we'll all be at learning which dogs are genuinely good at the sport, what that looks like, and how we can seek it out in our own animals.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

The pay to play is one of the biggest reasons the sport is on the decline or at best stagnant. Everyone with a sleeve wants a buck. I work dogs because I enjoy it and I love this sport. 25 years ago nobody charged squat unless they brought in someone for a seminar. 

Sorry 30.00-50.00 for 5-10 minutes is BS and I paid that for a lot of years. No more. I have no issues with chipping in for a helper's gas money or supplying a sleeve cover to help replace equipment they use. I'm so past contributing to someones mortgage or truck payment to have my dog worked.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

KJenkins said:


> The pay to play is one of the biggest reasons the sport is on the decline or at best stagnant. Everyone with a sleeve wants a buck. I work dogs because I enjoy it and I love this sport. 25 years ago nobody charged squat unless they brought in someone for a seminar.
> 
> Sorry 30.00-50.00 for 5-10 minutes is BS and I paid that for a lot of years. No more. I have no issues with chipping in for a helper's gas money or supplying a sleeve cover to help replace equipment they use. I'm so past contributing to someones mortgage or truck payment to have my dog worked.




I guess it would depend on the pay to play. I'm at one now and I love it for a couple reasons. I actually spend less money per year with them. After club dues and what not my pay to play is cheaper or at least about the same. My pay to play supplies equipment, although I still use my own. My pay to play holds twice as many trials a year than my other club. Plus I have noticed a difference in the people at the pay to play. Maybe I'm just lucky. My pay to play people are more like a club than my club people are. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't care as much as I used to though right now I'm in a club and don't pay a helper. As it is with what I pay in dues and how often I can actually get to training, I'm paying more than I would if I just paid a helper on the weekends I can train. I wish there were more clubs and less pay-to-play but there aren't...so what's the alternative, those people all quit?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Pay to play to me all depends on the circumstance. My club for years has had to bring in a helper from out of state, so he has a lot of cost that factors into coming out and working our dogs--not to mention he's literally spending the ENTIRE weekend away from his family. I have no problem forking over $40 a day for him working dogs because after gas (6 hour drive one way) and wear and tear on his car I really don't think he is coming out that ahead. We finally have another helper coming up the ranks and he's on a tip-basis. I think just about everyone throws him $5 when he works dogs....I'd have serious problems paying him much more than that.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

x11 said:


> personally as a non-hacker i would prefer to see less focus on precision and n increase in level of difficulty of the tests. by that i mean harder tests where the dog can sort of do it in their own way and not have to be so precise.
> 
> i don't think any part of shuts routine in isolation is that hard (but i never tried it), hence the only thing left to stand out is precision, precision, precision.
> 
> ...


If you are so unhappy with an existing sport, instead of complaining about how it should be changed, why don't you just try a new one that seems more suitable to you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Labs and Border Collies obtaining BHs and I'm sure their owners work very hard with them. Maybe consider not raining on everyone's parade all the time?


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