# Balen critique please. :)



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

This is just for fun and to help me learn about GSD conformation. I've been a little confused b/c of the different lines. Anyway, for those that havent seen my other threads on Balen, he was a rescue boy, estimated to be about 13 months old. He is currently 60 pounds. 

I hope these pictures are ok to use for the critique, I have such respect for anyone who can stack a dog, lol. The pictures in front of the fence are for me to keep visual track of the weight he has been putting on. He is a tad bit more filled out now. 

2 questions, Is his tail the proper length? Sometimes it looks fine to me, and sometimes it looks a little short. Would you consider him a working line? 

Thanks to anyone who gives a critique.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Let's see how I do...as a complete and utter novice 

Flat and short croup(?)
Minimal angulation in the back and I think the front too but I can't be sure. 

His tail is not too long but it sets a big high on his croup. Tail must be past the hock which is his, but there's only a mention of too short, not too long if I remember correctly. 
He has nice coloring/pigment. 
He does have a nick behind his withers, so his topline isn't what you'd consider "straight".
His ears are rather non-standard but not sure how I'd describe them. 
German Shepherd Dog Page

AND that's about all I have - I'm dying to know how "close" I am. I find conformation to be very interesting and am trying to learn, as well!


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

> His ears are rather non-standard but not sure how I'd describe them.


LOL! I couldnt even come up with "non standard" for those ears.... I think thats a nice way to put it.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I know nothing of the technical terms but I have been following all of your posts about him and think he is absolutely stunning!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Good looking boy! I don't think his tail is too short, I think the hair on the tip of his tail is a bit short, making the tail appear shorter than it is.

Hard to say whether he is a working line, or just a byb mix of lines.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks Msvette2u for your critique!




x0emiroxy0x said:


> I know nothing of the technical terms but I have been following all of your posts about him and think he is absolutely stunning!


Awww thank you. 



Freestep said:


> Good looking boy! I don't think his tail is too short, I think the hair on the tip of his tail is a bit short, making the tail appear shorter than it is.
> 
> Hard to say whether he is a working line, or just a byb mix of lines.


I think you are right about the hair. I felt the tip of his tail, and basically the hairs barely cover it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Don't thank me yet. I'm waiting for some of the experts to come along and make mincemeat of it


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I forgot to ad these....


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am sure the way he is, is good enough for you. Not a very useful comment maybe but still....


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

I think his conformation is actually quite nice. He's definitely a head turner with his gorgeous eyes and his coloring. I like his intelligent, yet happy and easy going expression in these pics. He doesn't look byb to me-he looks like a quality dog.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

CeCe said:


> I think his conformation is actually quite nice. He's definitely a head turner with his gorgeous eyes and his coloring. I like his intelligent, yet happy and easy going expression in these pics. He doesn't look byb to me-he looks like a quality dog.


Thank you.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Don't sweat it, he is a very young dog, at that "goofy" phase of growing up. I really like him, and I think by 2 years old, he will be one very good looking dog. Give the dude some time to mature. Best of luck with him!


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

lemans said:


> Don't sweat it, he is a very young dog, at that "goofy" phase of growing up. I really like him, and I think by 2 years old, he will be one very good looking dog. Give the dude some time to mature. Best of luck with him!


Thanks! I think by 2 years old he'll look a lot better too, I just hope his overall growth hasnt been stunted by being so malnourished at such a young age.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Do you have a picture of Balen in a proper stack? The natural stack does not lend well to a proper critique. You cannot confirm (at least I can't, perhaps the more season critiquers can) the dog's angulation when not in a stack. This is because the angulation is actually defined from the stacked position.

For what it's worth, I don't think Balen has a short croup. I think it might be just a bit steep, but what really makes the critique on his pelvis angle hard is the high tail set that breaks the flow of the topline. This gives an indication of a short croup. In this picture, I think the angle is probably OK, but once his rear drops a bit in the stack position, then angle will increase. So for that reason, I'm thinking his croup is a bit steep. The tail length seems acceptable to me, but again- I think it looks short based on the high tail set.

He has nice strong pasterns, but a short humerus causing insufficient angulation up front. Withers appear flat, but once stacked the topline may improve. The T11 dip is quite pronounced in his top line. He has a nice face in my opinion, looks male- good secondary sex characteristics and good pigmentation. He appears to have nice dark eyes.

I'd like to see him in a more confident pose regarding his ear position. He seems to be bordering on "airplane" ears which could be a sense of unsureness in what he's doing ("Why the heck are you making me stand like this!?"). Maybe having him focus on a ball or toy could help.

I think he's got a lot of rear leg, a pretty leggy dog- but I think he his leg in the rear is balanced by the long lower leg up front. He appears athletic. I'd be remiss for not pointing out his well defined loin. My Pimg shows the same way- a strong loin line with a concave stomach area under the lion. I'm not sure what causes this, but I've not seen it in many of the critiques here, even in well conditioned dogs.

Overall, I think he's a nice dog to look at!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

As an example of the loin line, check out Pan. He's a _very_ well conditioned dog and while you do see the loin, it's not pronounced like on Pimg or Balen. So like I said, I'm not sure what causes it- but I've definitely noticed it in my own dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I wasn't so far off! Whew!
But thank you for the info on the croup, that makes sense!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Calling admin Lisa! Haha! msvette2u and I want to know how close we are. :rofl:

I keep questioning and looking closer at the croup. I'm comparing to my own dog who was critiqued as having nice length and angle of croup. I also just happened to take a look at Kaiser who Lisa said had a good croup length and angle. I'm pretty sure I've read Balen correctly here. I like the length, and I think the angle is good in a natural stack, but will increase to borderline when the rear drops for a proper show stack. I don't know, the tail set is making it really difficult for me. I _think_ I read him correctly though. Lisa... we need you! haha!


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks for the great critique Wildo! I dont have any pictures of Balen in a proper stack, sorry! Try for some better pics....that stacking business is really hard, lol.

I see what you mean about the nice loins on Balen and Pimg. Had never noticed that before.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

PatchonGSD said:


> I see what you mean about the nice loins on Balen and Pimg. Had never noticed that before.


In re-reading what I wrote, I can see how you would think I was calling it nice. I'm not calling it not nice. haha... Actually, I'm just pointing out that this well defined loin section above a concave stomach section is different than I've seen on other well conditioned dogs. I don't know what causes the difference, and I don't have an opinion on whether it's a good or bad thing-- just different. :thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it's a combination of a thin, well conditioned dog (both good thing!) and the dog not being stacked. I can't really tell what the croup is like or if the tail is set high because the dog is not stacked, not "hand stacked" or standing in a natural stack. The thin loin/tuck I think is easier to see on a sable especially a lighter sable and working line type dogs that don't have as much coat. The same is true for my Kenya, a lighter patterned sable. Now Nikon, a black and red dog, is not lacking tuck in the loin area at all but since that area is solid black and he has more coat than some other dogs it doesn't always show as obvious in a photograph. Pan is sable but he has a good deal of coat, sometimes even more than Nikon so it can give the impression of more substance in a 2 dimensional photo.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I've been practicing the stack.....I'll get a good photo soon. lol

Thanks everyone.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ah, I see what you mean, Lies. So the "skinny sides" are there on Pan, but I didn't notice as much since he has a thicker coat and is much darker (the darker coat was probably throwing me off most). And I definitely see how it's even harder to see on Nikon due to his thicker coat. So I guess what I'm seeing is quite normal after all. I just never "read" it correctly. Very good to know!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I could be wrong, just a guess, but it's just that I could take a silhouette of Kenya and put it over Balen and I bet it would be so close. I think he has a tad more rear angulation than her, but the croup/loin/tuck area looks exactly the same and it's notable to me that they are similar in overall structure but also coat texture, color, and pattern. I often wonder if Nikon's color gives him the "larger than life" look. Most people say he weighs 80-90lbs looking at a photo and he weighs 70lbs and in person you can see his ribs and there is a definite tuck when you look at him over the top. In fact my 50lbs GSD Kenya with the very visible tuck (in photos) was actually wider through the chest than Nikon. She was not barrel chested per se but being smaller and thinner than Nikon she's definitely not narrower, if that makes sense.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Just as a final note on that whole "skinny sides" thing, I happened to think about GatorDog's Aiden vom HausDaka. There's another example of a dig with a very nicely defined loin and good tuck. So it does appear that this is more normal than I realized. And pretty nice to look at, in my opinion. Nothing worse than a flat sided dog (read: fat).


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

PatchonGSD said:


> Thanks! I think by 2 years old he'll look a lot better too, I just hope his overall growth hasnt been stunted by being so malnourished at such a young age.


At 13 months my male was 63 lbs. He is now 79 lbs at 2 years old, perfect weight for his age/breed. So your boy is on track for a slow healthy growth.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I know nothing but I think his coloring is gorgeous. I'm not sure I'd buy that he was a byb dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wildo said:


> I'd like to see him in a more confident pose regarding his ear position. He seems to be bordering on "airplane" ears which could be a sense of unsureness in what he's doing ("Why the heck are you making me stand like this!?"). Maybe having him focus on a ball or toy could help.


To me, his ears look relaxed, not unsure. Unsureness is ears folded back, which is what a lot of dogs tend to do when I bring out my camera (Oh God, what is she pointing at me and what is she gonna do with it?).


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

lemans said:


> At 13 months my male was 63 lbs. He is now 79 lbs at 2 years old, perfect weight for his age/breed. So your boy is on track for a slow healthy growth.
> 
> Well that makes me feel better. I think Balen should be 2-3 pounds heavier at this point, but we are taking that slowly. Is "Argos" the dog you are talking about?


Thanks everyone for your input. I will come back to this if/when I can get an actual stacked photo.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

wildo said:


> Do you have a picture of Balen in a proper stack? The natural stack does not lend well to a proper critique. You cannot confirm (at least I can't, perhaps the more season critiquers can) the dog's angulation when not in a stack. This is because the angulation is actually defined from the stacked position.
> 
> For what it's worth, I don't think Balen has a short croup. I think it might be just a bit steep, but what really makes the critique on his pelvis angle hard is the high tail set that breaks the flow of the topline. This gives an indication of a short croup. In this picture, I think the angle is probably OK, but once his rear drops a bit in the stack position, then angle will increase. So for that reason, I'm thinking his croup is a bit steep. The tail length seems acceptable to me, but again- I think it looks short based on the high tail set.
> 
> ...


Yah, now I'm dying to know!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> To me, his ears look relaxed, not unsure. Unsureness is ears folded back, which is what a lot of dogs tend to do when I bring out my camera (Oh God, what is she pointing at me and what is she gonna do with it?).


Agreed. Nikon has big, wide set ears and he looks like Yoda 90% of the time. If he's unsure he flicks them sideways or pins them back.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Sorry- I only know how my own dog looks and uses her ears. In my dog's case- an ear set like that would be uncertainty. That certainly doesn't hold true for every dog, and it's hard to tell from a static picture in a dog I've never met.

Even if this dog is relaxed, I still maintain that the ear set would look better in a more alert, up position.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

PatchonGSD: "Is "Argos" the dog you are talking about?"

Yes.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

wildo said:


> Sorry- I only know how my own dog looks and uses her ears. In my dog's case- an ear set like that would be uncertainty. That certainly doesn't hold true for every dog, and it's hard to tell from a static picture in a dog I've never met.
> 
> Even if this dog is relaxed, I still maintain that the ear set would look better in a more alert, up position.


He does have a wide ear set, I think the airplane ears in these pictures were due to his lack of muscle. (he was emaciated when I got him) Since he has been gaining his overall strength back, and has had lots of RMB he has been able to hold his ears higher and higher on a regular basis. While still wide set and, IMO, a little oddly shaped, they look more correct and better placed now than they did. 

Again- my fault for not having better pictures....still working on that. 



lemans said:


> PatchonGSD: "Is "Argos" the dog you are talking about?"
> 
> Yes.


He is a stunning dog. How tall is he?


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Thank you!

Ok, just measured him, 24 1/2"


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Guess none of these pictures will do any good? Almost got a stack photo-angle was off though. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-out-trying-get-stacked-photos-critique.html


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think that the movement pictures confirm (I think) what I said.

Here you can see good extension backwards on the rear foot. This is able to happen because of the croup angle and length. If the croup is short and steep, then the dog won't be able to extend the foot rearward as far limiting the pushing force. However, if I remember from the "German Shepherd, The German Way" dvd series, the long upper leg (femur) will not allow the dog to get his rear legs completely forward. I think this means the dog will likely choose to gallop rather than trot. 









And in these two pictures, you can see in the front that the reach is not there. I think the things to key in on is that at full extension, the foot is off the ground (so the dog is bending at the elbows in order to TRY to get reach):










And here when the foot hits the ground, the arm is not all the way forward- again- indicating the short humerus. He's also ever-so-slightly running downhill further indicating the short humerus:










I think I've said it in this thread- I try to always say it- I'm still learning. This could all be wrong.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What we could gather from this is, while some mock conformation, and say they don't care if they have a "pretty" dog, correct conformation is why dogs can move easily while dogs with incorrect conformation have a tougher time moving.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I cannot comment on conformation, which I know nothing of, but I have to say that the recent pictures of Balen are awesome.
I can't believe how he has filled out in the short time that he has spent with you already! Good Job


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

*Wildo*- Thanks for the critique- its been very informative for me!


> I think this means the dog will likely choose to gallop rather than trot.


 This is interesting, because, he actually almost always chooses to trot. For the sake of learning for everyone- and because I've been getting cruddy pics-would a video of him moving be beneficial? 



msvette2u said:


> What we could gather from this is, while some mock conformation, and say they don't care if they have a "pretty" dog, correct conformation is why dogs can move easily while dogs with incorrect conformation have a tougher time moving.


:thumbup:


Bear GSD said:


> I cannot comment on conformation, which I know nothing of, but I have to say that the recent pictures of Balen are awesome.
> I can't believe how he has filled out in the short time that he has spent with you already! Good Job


Thank you!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

He is looking really good


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

PatchonGSD said:


> *Wildo*- Thanks for the critique- its been very informative for me! This is interesting, because, he actually almost always chooses to trot. For the sake of learning for everyone- and because I've been getting cruddy pics-would a video of him moving be beneficial?


Probably that means I just don't know what I'm talking about. :rofl:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I still am really interested to learn from this thread. Bumping in hopes that some of the _true_ conformation gurus notice and jump in.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks for bumping Willy.

Here are a couple more pics....


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

bump


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