# polar bear puppies



## heddybo (Mar 26, 2011)

My family is wanting to get a german shepherd and we love the beauty of the white shepherd. I feel a little weird about not seeing the people and dogs face to face. I guess i'm a little old fashioned. Is this the case with most good breeders these days? Is everything done over the internet and phone? Oh and does anyone here recommend them? thanks


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with going and meeting the breeder face to face. I'd expect any reputable breeder will welcome you with open arms to their home and breeding facility. 

Only problem is there are far too few reputable breeders and visiting the kennel in person may not be an option depending on your location. Anyone can breed their dogs... the trick is finding a good breeder who does it the right way.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

No matter what 'flavor' of GSD you are interested in, please make sure you read all the links in this thread before you start calling and talking to breeders.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think it's a good idea, especially for someone who hasn't bought many GSD pups, to go out and meet the breeder, meet the parents (or at least the dam), see where their puppy will grow up and who will be raising it.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

heddybo- 
It's good you are doing some research. There is nothing wrong with picking the athstetic qualiites that appeal to you in a dog. However, do you know why white dogs are more rare than others? Do you know that faulty breeding created the white dogs? Faulty breeding that makes white dogs could also carry forward displaysia or agression. You want a healthy dog right? 

Please read my cut and paste from another message...

I know it's hard to seperate my comments about white shepherds if you own a beautiful white dog. I also can acknowledge that it is theoretically possible to have a white dog in perfect proportion, temperment, health, and abilities. 

It is the process I am uncomfortable with. I believe in ethical breeding which is thoughtful and continues the heritage of the breed. *A purebred dog has an intended purpose*. Humans create the situation in which the best traits are passed on for that breed. If you want other traits, you create a new breed which has been done throughout human history. So in 2011, when you have a white dog that was created by accident or latent genes left over from 100 years ago, you will have no knowledge (predictability) of the bad things that have also been brought through. 

The thing that seperates a true GSD from almost all other breeds is the care that went into selection; proof of working abilities, schutzhund, and a dedication to all physical aspects of the dog with predictable results. This only exists in small pockets in the US by people who understand this. 

I feel this applies to the OP's situation and while people were giving certain advice to her situation, no one mentioned the obvious problems with American breeding in general as it relates to white dogs, which as I said before are pictured on a website intended to promote the GSD breed. "Bad idea"


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Faulty breeding that makes white dogs could also carry forward displaysia or agression. You want a healthy dog right?


I am not a breeder, so I could be way off base here...but I have never heard that WGSDs are any more prone to health problems or behavioral issues than any other color. According to the breed standard the white dog is a color fault only.

I have fostered white dogs before and they have been a joy to live with and have gone on to do very well in their new homes. If anything they were soft dogs.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dr. Teeth is definitely entitled to his opinion. What you need to realize is that we do not _know_ the backgrownd, experience, dogs, etc of the people that post. He may know a lot, he may know very little. 

White dogs have been around since the breed was a breed. For a long time they were culled, as they were embarrassing to serious breeders. And, if the litter was large, the first to go were off-colors, as some countries had limits on how many pups a bitch could raise.

Also for a long time people felt that the white gene was also responsible for deafness, so they steered clear of dogs that were white, and dogs that threw white pups.

The very fact that they exist and in numbers, I think suggests that they can be pretty hardy. 

There are people breeding solely for color, and that is never a good thing. Also, the whites cannot be shown in AKC, so the white people had some freedom as they did not have to feel bound by the standard. If their people wanted large dogs, they could breed oversized, etc. White dogs can be shown in UKC rings though, and there is a following of dedicated white breeders. I do not know them and do not know how to find them.

There are white shepherds that excel in AKC performance events like Obedience and Rally. I have heard of white police dogs -- not many. 

Now I do not care for the white ones. Yupp prejudiced. I like the expression found in black and tans/black and reds, and am not interested in owning blacks, whites, sables, bi's, blues, or livers, though I did know a beautiful red shepherd when I was a kid that I absolutely loved. But color should be the least of our worries. If you really like the white dogs, find a breeder who either shows their dog in conformation (UKC) or in performace events. If you are not planning on doing schutzhund with your dog, you really do not need to buy a pup from someone who does. 

White shepherds require training, socialization, time, and attention, that the other colors do. All the issues facing shepherds today also face the white shepherd owners. They belong here as much as the sables and black and tans.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

DrTeeth said:


> It's good you are doing some research. There is nothing wrong with picking the athstetic qualiites that appeal to you in a dog. However, do you know why white dogs are more rare than others? Do you know that faulty breeding created the white dogs? Faulty breeding that makes white dogs could also carry forward displaysia or agression. You want a healthy dog right?


You are misinformed. Whites are not rare and this can be verified by researching the AKC registration statistics.

Faulty breeding did not create the white shepherd, white is natural color of the breed found in a recessive gene. 

You are correct that white is considered a disqualifying fault in the AKC standard and because of that, people who want a white shepherd need to be extra careful in their search for a breeder. HP and aggression are faults that should be avoided by any breeder and are not more common in the whites. 

For anyone looking for a white shepherd I suggest turning to the American White Shepherd Association, the White German Shepherd Dog Club of America or the United White Shepherd Club (Canada) for guidance. If you are anyplace other than the US or Canada or want to import, look to the breed clubs for Berger Blanc Suisse and White Shepherds across the globe. 

The attempt to remove whites from the breed didn't work in the 1930's and it's still not working.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'm a little worried that the breeder "Polar Bear Puppies" seems to be focusing on large, plush coat whites. Seems like an awfully small gene pool to me and that to focus on three physical characteristics like that might lead to problems elsewhere. Plus you have to be skeptical of a breeder that says right on their website that crates are cruel and inhumane.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

I have the same opinion when somebody touts overweight dogs on their website, like the polar bear people. It raises serious doubts, that they breed anything of the GSD standard. Do they have any purpose in what they are doing besides big and white. 

If they ignore one part of the standard, did they ignore the part about strength, or temperment, or clarity? Who knows? You wouldn't defend that would you? When I'm paying serious money for a puppy that I want to grow up healthy first of all, and able to perform the way the GSD standard says it "must". I would never take chances given the serious problems that are all around with untested dogs. Especially when real GSD's are for sale that have generation after generation of Schutzhund, proving their working abilites, endurance testing, shows determining world rankings, and experts approving and selecting which are best to breed. Great Pyranees are big and white why not get one of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

White sheps are real Dr. Teeth. GSDs that come out of non-schutzhund stock are real too. Just because a puppy comes out of a line of schutzhund titled dogs DOES NOT mean the pup will be suited for police work, or SAR, or that it will have good hips and elbows, proper drives, etc. 

I do not understand why you insist that the white ones are not really GSDs. It is deliberately alienating people on this board who one white dogs. White shepherds and Great Pyranese dogs are like apples and oranges.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We have a local white GSD in SAR.

White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || Welcome

AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

some of the white GSD's history:
GERMAN KRIEGHUND - White Shepherd Tunisian Sniper Scout

the reason that the white color on GSDs it's not allowed especially here in Europe it's because of what happened in the WWII. they where used in the war as mine dogs etc etc and because of their color they where an easy target to the enemy so after the WW they stopped breeding the white german shepherd. other than that the white color it's not a bad thing on GS.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Dr. Teeth said:


> If they ignore one part of the standard, did they ignore the part about strength, or temperment, or clarity? Who knows? You wouldn't defend that would you?


I won't defend any breeder that doesn't deserve defending, I don't care what color the dogs are.  

What I will speak up about is the absurd belief that everyone who breeds white shepherds turns a blind eye to their temperament, health, train-ability etc. Are there bad breeders turning out whites? You bet, but there are also some great whites being produced by very good breeders. The generalizations that fly around this forum are mind boggling.

So again...If someone wants to buy a white shepherd they must be careful about the breeder they pick. The process is no different than when you look for any other dog.
The only way to know what a breeder produces is to research the bloodlines, see what's happened with the progeny, check the OFA scores etc. etc. 



Dr. Teeth said:


> Especially *when real GSD's are for sale ...*snip... Great Pyranees are big and white why not get one of them.


You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. The Great Pyranees are nice dogs but we're partial to GSD's, thanks for the suggestion. 

I hope like us, that you have found a "real" dog or dogs that rock your world. If not, I'd be happy to recommend a breeder for you...if you're tough enough to come over the dark side that is. oke:

Who could have guessed that the black sheep in the family would be white??????


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Whiteshepherds said:


> You are misinformed. Whites are not rare and this can be verified by researching the AKC registration statistics.
> 
> Faulty breeding did not create the white shepherd, white is natural color of the breed found in a recessive gene.
> 
> ...


Whites are disqualified - not because of a genetic fault.....It was an arbitrary rule of the parent breed club, the SV in Germany....in spite of that, there is a following ... a white breed was used in formation of the breed, and it was a guarding type from what I remember....the guarding breeds were intended to blend with the sheep...the herding dogs were a contrast that the shepherd and the sheep could pick out against the white sheep. Pure and simple from what I remember of my von Stephenitz...

Personally, I always liked the whites - chalk it up to Mickey Mouse Club's Shadow, just like Fury, the black stallion! But I respect the standard and would not breed them....if I got one, it would be placed as a pet with irrevocable limited registration. I support the idea of making the whites a separate breed, but wonder if the color breed genetics could be closed and thus have no access to the colored dogs gene pool.

Lee


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I have heard good things about this breeder

Hallmark Shepherds - Home Page


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> a white breed was used in formation of the breed, and it was a guarding type from what I remember....the guarding breeds were intended to blend with the sheep...the herding dogs were a contrast that the shepherd and the sheep could pick out against the white sheep. Pure and simple from what I remember of my von Stephenitz...


Lee, I have heard this repeated time and time again (along with various other reasons regarding why the white color was disqualified). Is there any support to back this up? Did von Stephanitz ever state this explicitly, or even imply it, in his book? I've always wondered and never received a satisfying answer (I am usually told that it is "common sense"...). I did not read the Captain's book with extreme care, and have only read/skimmed through it twice and want to know what I might have missed on the white color. All I remember him saying is that "no good dog is a bad color" or something along those lines.

Also, I may be mistaken, but aren't Pulis and Pumis and Pyrenean Sheepdogs herders as well? I know that those breeds do come in white, and cream is an accepted color in Mudis, which I also have heard to be a herding breed (I don't think it any easier to spot a small cream coated dog amongst a flock of sheep than it is to spot a white one!).

I have always wondered if those advocating for breed separation also wish the German Shepherd Dog be divided among the different breed types, with American show lines as one breed, German show lines as another, West German working lines as yet another, etc.? The argument and reasoning behind this has always intrigued me.


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## mahhi22 (Jul 14, 2009)

To the OP, 
I'm thinking you might be around the PNW if you're considering a Polar Bear pup. I don't know anything about that breeder. But when Rumi & I were in puppy class earlier this year, a woman had a white pup from this breeder located in Longview, WA SureFire Shepherds


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> I support the idea of making the whites a separate breed, but wonder if the color breed genetics could be closed and thus have no access to the colored dogs gene pool.
> 
> Lee


This is a pretty interesting article written by Fred Lanting about creating a new breed, the whites separating, how the gene pool will be affected etc. http://www.siriusdog.com/white-german-shepherd-dog.htm


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Here is a link to the history of the white german Shepherd and also a link to a very good site that studies genetice and health issues of the White German Shepherd .(They are every bit as healthy as the colored GSD's and the only difference is the color of this site benefits all GSD's

According to this it was not Stephanitz who disliked the whites but the Nazi's

White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd

White Shepherd Genetics Project - Home Page


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## heddybo (Mar 26, 2011)

oh my goodness. I feel a bit overloaded with information. You all have definitely brought up some great points and lots for me to think about. THANK YOU !!!! I look forward to have such a knowledgable resource as i search for the next member of our family!


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## grant miller (Feb 13, 2012)

**This type of post must be done in PM's ONLY. ADMIN**


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Great Pyranees are big and white why not get one of them.


Perhaps b/c despite their impressive size & beauty Great Pyrs are not GSD. They lack the biddability, problem solving skills & discernment of a well bred GSD. Surprise! Some of those well bred GSD are white. IF someone wants to breed exclusively whites that's not difficult & the current gene pool is probably large enough to do it properly.

Frankly, if they wanted a Great Pyr, I imagine that's what they'd be seeking. This nonsensical suggestion that crops up is both ridiculous & insulting, as are the implications that white GSD are likely to be unhealthy, dysplastic or inappropriately aggressive. Continuously bludgeoning people with the standard will not increase respect for it.

Heddybo, I know nothing about the breeder you posted & haven't looked. For excellent info you should pm Whiteshepherds. She's among the most knowledgeable about the white GSD.

Whiteshepherd, _"Who could have guessed that the black sheep in the family would be white??????"_ would make a great sig. I LOVE it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I have heard of white police dogs -- not many.


Where are these white police dogs? I asked this question awhile back and no one had heard of a white GSD in law enforcement. I did, however, see photos of some doing bitework, and some doing SAR.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Where are these white police dogs? I asked this question awhile back and no one had heard of a white GSD in law enforcement. I did, however, see photos of some doing bitework, and some doing SAR.


From the White German Shepherd Dog club of America site... "Ve-Lin�s _Kaiser the Role_, otherwise known as K9 Conan, is just one example of a White German Shepherd police dog. This dog earned many citations for evidence explosive detection, and criminal apprehension for the military."


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Freestep said:


> Where are these white police dogs? I asked this question awhile back and no one had heard of a white GSD in law enforcement. I did, however, see photos of some doing bitework, and some doing SAR.


There was a white K9 named Bart with the Minneapolis PD in the '90's. There are pics and an article from the newspaper on the white GSD clubs website.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Conan was partnered with a friend of mine here in the St. Louis area. They had numerous busts, and his handler stated to me once that he was the best dog he had ever handled.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Ah, so there are! Cool.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

RubyTuesday said:


> Perhaps b/c despite their impressive size & beauty Great Pyrs are not GSD. They lack the biddability, problem solving skills & discernment of a well bred GSD. Surprise! Some of those well bred GSD are white. IF someone wants to breed exclusively whites that's not difficult & the current gene pool is probably large enough to do it properly.
> 
> Frankly, if they wanted a Great Pyr, I imagine that's what they'd be seeking. This nonsensical suggestion that crops up is both ridiculous & insulting, as are the implications that white GSD are likely to be unhealthy, dysplastic or inappropriately aggressive. Continuously bludgeoning people with the standard will not increase respect for it.


:thumbup:

I would never own a Great Pyrenees. I am not cut out for that breed. 
They are as different as day and night from a GSD. GSDs are people dogs, Pyrs are livestock dogs, bred to think independently (read: NOT TAKE ORDERS FROM HUMANS) and make their own decisions. They are a loaded gun in the wrong hands, and I am here to tell ya, I'm "the wrong hands" for that breed. 

If they didn't require such above average coat care (and are an XL breed to boot) I'd consider owning one to live with our livestock but in our area they are very popular and I see them all the time out there in the muck and poo getting burs and other weeds in their coats and never being groomed. 
I'd never own a dog I could not care for properly, both mentally (their minds, and training) and physically (coat care).


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Andaka said:


> Conan was partnered with a friend of mine here in the St. Louis area. They had numerous busts, and his handler stated to me once that he was the best dog he had ever handled.


That's cool ... I met Conan and his partner at a WGSDCII show once. His breeder is remarried and now living in CA.


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