# purchasing



## axle5 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm looking to purchase a dog for a companion for myself and my other dog. I would like to purchase a protection dog b/c of a ton of drug activity around my area and I want my family to be safe when i'm away.
Does anyone have any links to GOOD breeders/sales of thsi type of animal. I have done some research myself and have noticed some of these dogs are outrangously overpriced. Thanks for any replies.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

where are you located at


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## axle5 (Oct 19, 2008)

Pennsylvania about 1 hour from pittsburgh


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you want a dog for you and your other dog and you want your family to be safe. i think that should be you want a dog to protect your family then as a companion for you and your other dog. 

now what's outrageously over priced to you? do you know the cost of dogs? do you want a puppy or a dog that's trained? what price range do you have in mind for a dog or puppy???


> Originally Posted By: axle5I'm looking to purchase a dog for a companion for myself and my other dog. I would like to purchase a protection dog b/c of a ton of drug activity around my area and I want my family to be safe when i'm away.
> Does anyone have any links to GOOD breeders/sales of thsi type of animal. I have done some research myself and have noticed some of these dogs are outrangously overpriced. Thanks for any replies.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

A protection trained dog has a TON of training which does not come "cheap". If you take short cuts you will be left with a HUGE liability on your hands. Most any GSD will be a deterrent alone without the PP training. A lot of ppl live in "dangerous" areas but 99% of the ppl do not nor SHOULD own a PP dog. They may come trained, however, that training needs to be maintained. Which will cost even more money. Also if you have a PP dog and your insurance company finds out it could mean a raise in rates or dropping the policy outright. A PP dog is bite trained and many people misunderstand that for a vicious dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is the dog that has some anxiety issues, right? I really think you should work with that dog first before adding another to your pack. 

If and when you do choose to add another please be aware that gsds do not have to be protection trained to be effective deterrents. Rafi is not even a gsd and is smaller (Mal size) and I can walk anywhere with him at night and people give us a very wide berth. My last gsd, Basu, was so protective of our yard and house that people avoided even passing it!


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

I have a half west german show half american and lets just say no one will be walking into my house that shouldn't be, out of my 3 dogs she is the one I know will protect us, she has shown us that before, my other one he looks at her and leaves it to her and my youngest is still growing but getting more protective, and they haven't had any training, you should find a nice german bred dog in my opinion (I have one german and one american as well) it all depends on who you get one from as well, if you are looking for a puppy and don't want to rescue I know of a couple good breeders in Va that is reasonable


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

buy the biggest, scariest looking dog u can find. 

i have my dog involved in PSA as a sport, not because i need protection. GSD's are scary looking and are naturally protective but they all are very capable to be a companion dog. if u buy a pup/young dog just check the parents backround and make sure that ur getting a solid dog. nerve bags dont make a good protection dog as they are easy to run off. 

PPD's are not a companion dog, well they can be but most of them come wired a bit different. with my short experience i have seen some very intense dogs that could care less about being pampered. on the other hand i have also seen very intense dogs that would make a perfect house dog. my advise would be that if u do consider a PPD to make sure that the dogs personality suits your lifestyle.


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## axle5 (Oct 19, 2008)

Anyhow, we contacted a dog company what has protection dogs, police dogs, etc. and asked them about the dog pedigrees. They said they dont keep the dogs pedigree when they get them. They actually shed the documents so there is no trace of were the dogs come from so someone can't come back on the buyer or them incase the dogs start winning money at shows or things like that. (I was really questioning this company at this point) 

I then asked to sendme more information and they sent me documents showing dogs with dutch ring titles and police dogs purchased through them. 

My question is: No pedigrees, is it a risk? 

Sorry about the words misspelled b/c my keyboard is messing up.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

As a trainer for a relatively large police canine unit, pedigrees never mattered to me. Having said that though, I don't buy puppies. That gives me the advantage of doing my own health checks and behavior tests. Pedigrees don't guarentee anything. However, I have purchased dogs from vendors that come with their "papers". The vendors I know pass the pedigrees along, if the dog has one. Whether or not they have one is immaterial to me as a trainer. 

DFrost


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DFrostAs a trainer for a relatively large police canine unit, pedigrees never mattered to me. Having said that though, I don't buy puppies. That gives me the advantage of doing my own health checks and behavior tests. Pedigrees don't guarentee anything. However, I have purchased dogs from vendors that come with their "papers". The vendors I know pass the pedigrees along, if the dog has one. Whether or not they have one is immaterial to me as a trainer.
> 
> DFrost


agree









i would say that if u are getting a puppy then the pedigree would matter because as a pup, u really cant tell what dog really is...know what i mean??

as an adult, what u see is what u get. 

i would just say to find out as much about the one particular dog, temperment, nerves, health..etc etc.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: axle5 They actually shed the documents so there is no trace of were the dogs come from so someone can't come back on the buyer or them incase the dogs start winning money at shows or things like that. (I was really questioning this company at this point)


That makes NO sense what so ever! My guess is that they don't give the papers (if they get them) so that if the dog bites someone, the individual that gets bitten can't come back on them!

If a dog were to start winning at "shows" what better way to get MORE buisness if everyone knows where the dog came from?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DFrostAs a trainer for a relatively large police canine unit, pedigrees never mattered to me. Having said that though, I don't buy puppies. That gives me the advantage of doing my own health checks and behavior tests. Pedigrees don't guarentee anything. However, I have purchased dogs from vendors that come with their "papers". The vendors I know pass the pedigrees along, if the dog has one. Whether or not they have one is immaterial to me as a trainer.
> ...




I don't disagree, but a pedigree is no guarentee either. It does increase the odds, but it doesn't assure that will happen.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

i would say that if u are getting a puppy then the pedigree would matter because as a pup, u really cant tell what dog really is...know what i mean??

**************************************************

That is why most of we cops and military do not purchase pups for work. Too risky. I have never trained a pedigree and one does not know what one has until the pup is old enough to test. Then there is the hip issue......


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

[qu

That makes NO sense what so ever! My guess is that they don't give the papers (if they get them) so that if the dog bites someone, the individual that gets bitten can't come back on them!

If a dog were to start winning at "shows" what better way to get MORE buisness if everyone knows where the dog came from? [/quote]

Those of we who work dogs do not show them. The reason a lot of folks in Europe do not send the papers with the dog is A) they do not register them and B) they will stick the papers on another dog they sell to the US because the buyer wants papers. This is common in breeds other than GSDs. It has nothing to do with liability. One can always find the vendor who sold the dog


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

Another reason for no papers might be the lack of papers with K9's. If a breeder or whoever chooses to breed to a K9/police dog that doesn't have papers, there would be no papers on the puppies. Doesn't mean they're not quality dogs....but I'd want very thorough health checks first. At a minimum, you should be able to know the hip ratings on the pup's parents. No dog (even a police dog with or without papers) should be bred without hip xrays done. They should have that info for sure. 

Seems a little shady to me though...doesn't seem like the reason they gave you has too much merit. Their dogs might be great...or they might not, but I'd be hesitant to deal with a breeder that gives out a reason like that. Just doesn't seem very honest. I'd run. There's plenty of good breeders out there...why take a chance on this one, especially if they've already given you a bad feeling.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I am not talking about breeders nor about the US. I was referring to practices overseas with regard to importing dogs for police work. As in adult dogs. Anyone here in the us buying a pup will receive papers if it is a reputable breeder. Now, some of these folks who are breeding imported dogs that were purchased by an agency from a vendor may or may not have registration papers. ANY police agency,however, that purchases a dog without hip xrays is clueless. It is common practice for vendors to provide hip xrays on dogs.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Hips, elbows and spine, from a reputable vet that validates the tattoo.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've stated before, I don't buy puppies. I do buy dogs from vendors. I have purchased a few from breeders. Either way, I treat vendors and breeders like I would a used car salesman. I have my own physicals, including xrays, conducted at my expense. Even if they provide me x-rays with the dog I purchase. It only costs a couple of hundred dollars. Relatively cheap when you consider the amount of training and time that will be spent on the dog. The only "showing" we may do is when the public sees the dog. Handlers are not permitted to breed their dogs. It's state property. None of the dogs belong to the handler.

DFrost


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

One of the older K9s (our best dog by far) here did not come with papers. It was explained to me by someone that in some countries they can only sell so many dogs or breed so many? Something like that. So they sell the dog with no papers, I guess sort of "off the books". Has anyone heard of a situation like that before?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Overseas breeders approach it a lot differently than most US breeders. The ones that are selling "working dogs" are just not as concerned about pedigrees, but more the working quality of a dog. Those that do sell because of pedigrees, past titles, titles on the parents and up the lineage usually are not within the price range of police departments. Police department trainers just don't buy dogs bases on what the ancestors have done. Most of the police trainers in the US recognize we are only getting the top of the bottom of the barrel anyway.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DFrostOverseas breeders approach it a lot differently than most US breeders. The ones that are selling "working dogs" are just not as concerned about pedigrees, but more the working quality of a dog. Those that do sell because of pedigrees, past titles, titles on the parents and up the lineage usually are not within the price range of police departments. Police department trainers just don't buy dogs bases on what the ancestors have done. Most of the police trainers in the US recognize we are only getting the top of the bottom of the barrel anyway.
> 
> DFrost



Exactly. A bunch of dogs go up for sale after nationals in Holland and the Bundesieger and German Sieger show for all purposes.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Nope. Probably depends on who they deal with.

We have turned down awesome dogs, because of not passing elbows. And then a vendor from the US will buy right after us.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: And then a vendor from the US will buy right after us.


Oh I agree. Unfortunately, a lot of agencies do not have a trainer on board that can evaluate dogs. Vendors will roll whatever they can to whomever has the check in many cases. Once agency washes one,there will be another that will not know the difference....


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

You sound like you are not really looking for a PPD, most of those dogs are a hand full,and you really need to know what you are doing with them. You can get a dog who is from working lines that is not trainned for that kind of work,and most will be protective on their own, and you can do as much trainning as you can handle, most puppies will adapt to its up bringing,as well as adjust to the other dog.I fear that if you brought in a PPD you may end up with more than you can handle,and the dog will be punished in the end.There are good breeders were you live, just do your research first.best


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Renee,

The vendor that did buy the dog that did not pass the elbows did have his trainer with him and has been in the business for quite some time. We are one of the few, if not the only one, that insisted on hips, elbows and spines.

I was just surprised.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

""We are one of the few, if not the only one, that insisted on hips, elbows and spines.""

I xray everything I buy. I also do a complete physical including internal parasites and heartworm. It's a relatively cheap price to pay for such an investment. I've always said, I treat vendors like used car salesmen.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I've always said, I treat vendors like used car salesmen.


 yep buyer beware


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

David,

What I meant is when we were over there and looking at dogs, prior to import, and doing the medical tests.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I understand Sue, and you are right. A lot (most) don't xray before importing. 

DFrost


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## focker (Oct 4, 2008)

my short and easy advice is for you to buy a gsd pup or two.
gsd's are natural protector to its masters.
you may have the money to buy a trained PP dog but in the long run, you'll never know how much money you'll lose regarding the training and accidents caused by lack of knowledge of handling an adult PP dog.
Try having a gsd pup and raise it.
They'll protect you and your properties as they grow older each day.
Plus, watching gsd's grow and watch them protect you is a joy without any equal price


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: axle5Anyhow, we contacted a dog company what has protection dogs, police dogs, etc. and asked them about the dog pedigrees. They said they dont keep the dogs pedigree when they get them. They actually shed the documents so there is no trace of were the dogs come from so someone can't come back on the buyer or them incase the dogs start winning money at shows or things like that. (I was really questioning this company at this point)
> 
> I then asked to sendme more information and they sent me documents showing dogs with dutch ring titles and police dogs purchased through them.
> 
> ...


I have an idea of who this may be - if in the general WPA/Ohio line area. Bringing in dogs and selling for high prices with no documentation. How do you KNOW the dog is the age they say, has the hips/elbows they claim? I would be very very wary of anyone selling without any paperwork to PROVE what the dog is and where the dog came from. 


The comment about "winning money at shows"














Money is NOT a component of "winning" at shows! And winning is a positive - but to put it as an excuse???







They can't show without papers! 
Lee


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm with the posters not recommending a trained protection dog at all. Between the training YOU need to work with the dog. And then the upkeep of training you need to CONTINUE to do with the dog.......(and you haven't trained a protection dog before, right?) I know it would be too much for me. But if you don't do it, the liability with the dog is at risk, as well as you having to get rid of the dog down the line because of all the issues that would probably start up.

I've never trained either of my GSD's to protect me. But just cause they ARE GSD's it's not uncommon for me to see people cross the road ahead of us rather than share the sidewalk. And almost everyone says 'are your dogs friendly' before coming near.

Because I have my dogs socialized and trained for what I AM doing in my real life the vast majority of the time. Going new places. Out with friends. Having friends over. With kids they know and new kids. THAT is what I actively 'train' and socialize for. So I have safe dogs that I can rely on.

That said, one of the reasons I have GSD's is because of the way they look and the reputation they have. Just sitting beside me in public people can be wary. My dog doesn't have to to growling, barking, or 'protecting' me. They can just be sitting there being well behaved. SPECIALLY my sable girl, somehow the darker dog is more off-putting to most people.

Added to the fact they DO bark in the house when people come to the door or go past. So clearly I DO have big loud scary dogs. To all the strangers who may be up to no good.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

If you can afford and maintain a real PPD you can probably afford to move to a better nieghborhood. you might be better off going to a rescue and getting a barker


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## mike1835 (Jan 29, 2009)

To the OP. I currently have a retired police k-9 and have trained with the pd k-9's. If you are looking for a good PPD, get a german sheperd, and spend as much time with him/her as possible. GSD have a strong family instinct and you will be protected. If you are looking for a PPD, from my experience, he/she will not make a great family dog. PPD's are trained/ bred to be high strung, ex. junk yard dogs. If you get a GSD and bring him up right, that will be all the protection you need. 

This is my humble opinion. Thanks


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