# Running Contacts or Not?



## LuvourGSDs

Just wondered who all uses his method? Why do you like this method? Do you wish you would have trained different?

I so far have been training the 2o2o way with pup & havin my older female wait on contacts. I feel this probably does slow my older gal expecting to have to wait.

I just ask this as I was surprised to read SG training this way with her pup Swagger & thought she was a big 2o2o person.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

You're going to find that everyone has their own opinion on this- and honestly not one opinion is right. You have to find what works best for your dog. Also, there's not just 2o2o and running, there's also 4o and probably others too. For the dog walk I use a stop command for all four paws on, in trials this translates into a running contact, but gets him to run to the bottom. His teetor and a-frame are running. I prefer not to use 2o2o because of the jamming into the ground on the a-frame. I taught a running on the a-frame by targeting the bottom of the a-frame, so this started like a 4o also.

If your only concern with 2o2o is that it takes more time, I believe people have made other threads on this topic, complete with videos, to show that it doesn't really take any more time.


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## wildo

There's a lot of good info here on the topic: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/168397-running-dogwalk-anyone.html


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## LuvourGSDs

Ok, thanks. 

I just have always been concerned with our big breed trying to
stop with a 2o2o. Just the force....

I was taught to use this method with the pup. I know SO many diff ways, just wanting to do correct here & not back pedal trying to correct my mistakes.


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## kbella999

One of my gsd's has "fast walking" or "slow running" contacts. I wish I knew how to train that as that is just how she always did it. My 2nd gsd is much faster and I have him do a 2o2o on the dog walk and a 1RT (One Rear Toe) on the A-frame. He has no stopping on the teeter. I taught him the "bang game" on it so he slams the teeter and runs off. I also tried the 4otf with my 2nd dog but that didn't work out for us. I like the 1RT but may change to running. Will just have to see. Every dog is differnt.


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## wildo

WOW! People actually use the 1RTO method!? Interesting.


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## gsdheeler

With my male I used 2o2o for all contact equip. He did end up having shoulder problems, (did xrays, it's soft tissue). He's retired.
With my girl I'm doing 2o2o on the dog DW and Teter. Running contacts on the A frame. I'll never know if coming to a full stop on the A frame caused his shoulder problem,but that was the deciding factor in teaching a running contact for the A frame.


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## LuvourGSDs

gsdheeler said:


> With my male I used 2o2o for all contact equip. He did end up having shoulder problems, (did xrays, it's soft tissue). He's retired.
> With my girl I'm doing 2o2o on the dog DW and Teter. Running contacts on the A frame. I'll never know if coming to a full stop on the A frame caused his shoulder problem,but that was the deciding factor in teaching a running contact for the A frame.


Hey thanks. This is what I have always worried about & mainly on the A-frame. Such a pitch to try & slow them on. 
Sorry about your boy.

I have never heard of the RTO method & I bet that is fun to teach.


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## wildo

LuvourGSDs said:


> I have never heard of the RTO method & I bet that is fun to teach.


http://www.awesomepaws.us/pdf/Reprint_OneRearToe.pdf

I read that article a while ago and came away laughing. I couldn't believe that people would actually train that. I guess perhaps I should have taken it more seriously... I really didn't think people actually trained it.


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## gsdheeler

I went to a seminar a few years ago given by Dr. Chris Zink DVM. She has a few books out on jumping and agility. I know she runs her oun dogs in agility. At the seminar
She showed slow motion videos of how dogs are using their bodies and it was an eye opener. That was another thing that made me rethink some of my training.


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## AgileGSD

gsdheeler said:


> I went to a seminar a few years ago given by Dr. Chris Zink DVM. She has a few books out on jumping and agility. I know she runs her oun dogs in agility. At the seminar
> She showed slow motion videos of how dogs are using their bodies and it was an eye opener. That was another thing that made me rethink some of my training.


 What did it show as far as contact stuff goes?


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## wildo

AgileGSD said:


> What did it show as far as contact stuff goes?


...And is it a public video?


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## kbella999

Not sure why you thought it was funny but my boy is tall and I did not want him doing a 2o2o on the A-frame. It is a little harder to train than a 2o2o but so far he has been doing very well on it. The 4otf didn't work for us but that isn't to say it is bad, just not for us. I may try running in the future but he is green and my instructor and I decided a stopped contact was best for now. 



wildo said:


> http://www.awesomepaws.us/pdf/Reprint_OneRearToe.pdf
> 
> I read that article a while ago and came away laughing. I couldn't believe that people would actually train that. I guess perhaps I should have taken it more seriously... I really didn't think people actually trained it.


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## wildo

I thought it was funny because it's so odd... Well, I find it odd anyway. I'm glad it is working for you!


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## kbella999

Thanks. Its been fun to train with him. Here is a video of some of his training. 



 


wildo said:


> I thought it was funny because it's so odd... Well, I find it odd anyway. I'm glad it is working for you!


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## wildo

It's just so interesting to me. How does the dog _power_ off the a-frame to the next obstacle if one of his legs isn't in position to propel? One leg is up under the body while the other is at full extension (rendering it useless for an explosive release). It looks like it's working well for you though! Nice a-frame by the way. And wow- you have grass in your yard! haha


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## kbella999

I never thought of it from that point. Jerry Lee is a power house so I don't think I will have any problems with that but if I did, I would have to choose this way because I believe it is better for his elbows, shoulders, and spine. Oh I wish that was my back yard. LOL It is one of the places I train. Do you do running contacts on the A-Frame? I still may switch to that.



wildo said:


> It's just so interesting to me. How does the dog _power_ off the a-frame to the next obstacle if one of his legs isn't in position to propel? One leg is up under the body while the other is at full extension (rendering it useless for an explosive release). It looks like it's working well for you though! Nice a-frame by the way. And wow- you have grass in your yard! haha


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## wildo

kbella999 said:


> Do you do running contacts on the A-Frame? I still may switch to that.


We do not yet have a trained contact performance. My winter training plans included contact training, but then my dog was injured. We are on a short hiatus from agility, unfortunately. I do, however, plan on training a running a-frame.


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## kbella999

Oh, so sorry to hear that! I hope he recovers quickly. Jerry Lee is also on hiatus right now because he has bad elbows (not from training or injury, supposedly genetic). I plan on doing a lot of rehab and if I decide to do running then there is the "which method of running" to teach. LOL


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## LuvourGSDs

Cool guys, thanks for all your input! 

Like to hear what has worked for others, just wish I would find/get a method & stay with it! I do not want to confuse the furkids & hate back pedaling. 

I have started to try & stop my older gal now as she always had a running frame, I have worried about this tho. Nice if ya gotta make a cross at a show tho, has came in handy. 

Just wanted get a method & stick with it with Skyrah. 

Had seen a recent blog just today about SG maybe gonna offer a contact online deal. Would be super awesome, but wowsa, cannot afford them.  whaaah

I did think she was a big 2o2o person, but I guess I am wrong, she stated did RC. Hmmmm, not sure why I thought that.


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## wildo

LuvourGSDs said:


> I did think she was a big 2o2o person, but I guess I am wrong, she stated did RC. Hmmmm, not sure why I thought that.


She is a big 2o2o person, but also does running contacts. That is to say, she trains both. She hasn't been overly public about running contacts because (to paraphrase her) she couldn't find a "sure-fire, bullet proof, will always work" method of training it. Apparently since she is now putting together the course (which, according to a Recaller's Coaching Call, is slated for sometime in March) she must have found a method that she likes.


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> She is a big 2o2o person, but also does running contacts. That is to say, she trains both. She hasn't been overly public about running contacts because (to paraphrase her) she couldn't find a "sure-fire, bullet proof, will always work" method of training it. Apparently since she is now putting together the course (which, according to a Recaller's Coaching Call, is slated for sometime in March) she must have found a method that she likes.


 I'll be very interested to hear what RC method she's decided to go with. Her course is specifically for running contacts?


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## wildo

Looks like she is still developing the class. Take her survey here to help her come up with a game plan: Leaving Facebook... | Facebook

If that link doesn't work, then just go locate it on her Facebook wall: https://www.facebook.com/SusanGarrettDogAgility


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> Looks like she is still developing the class. Take her survey here to help her come up with a game plan: Leaving Facebook... | Facebook
> 
> If that link doesn't work, then just go locate it on her Facebook wall: https://www.facebook.com/SusanGarrettDogAgility



I'm thinking someone is trying to compete with Silvia Trkman's online classes with the mention of RC and Tricks training options  I didn't take it though because I won't be taking any of her online courses, so can't really offer feedback about what I would or wouldn't want in one. 

I will be curious if she is using some variation of an existing RC method or has created a new approach. She's been pretty outspoken against RCs in the past but to compete at World Championship level, you pretty much have to have them in some form.


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## christinaekenn

I have taught a variety of different contact methods over the years. For my younger shepherd, we are doing a 2O2O on the teeter and dogwalk but a running on the a-frame. I had pretty good success with Rachael Sander's box method on the a-frame. Not knocking anyone but I wouldn't train the 1 foot or toe on personally- for the reasons Wildo posted and also because I have seen dogs who are more likely to not hold onto the contact and then reach back with one foot and touch. This is a DQ. If I was to train a 2O2O again, it would be in an "extended" position instead of right at the base of the a-frame. I have seen a lot of big dog owners have success with the 4 on the floor method also. 

I will say though, the 2O2O isn't bad on the shoulders IF you teach the dog to do it properly such as to rock back on their rear ends. Those that just teach the dog to fly and stop end up jamming their shoulders a bit.


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## LuvourGSDs

christinaekenn said:


> I have taught a variety of different contact methods over the years. For my younger shepherd, we are doing a 2O2O on the teeter and dogwalk but a running on the a-frame. I had pretty good success with Rachael Sander's box method on the a-frame. Not knocking anyone but I wouldn't train the 1 foot or toe on personally- for the reasons Wildo posted and also because I have seen dogs who are more likely to not hold onto the contact and then reach back with one foot and touch. This is a DQ. If I was to train a 2O2O again, it would be in an "extended" position instead of right at the base of the a-frame. I have seen a lot of big dog owners have success with the 4 on the floor method also.
> 
> I will say though, the 2O2O isn't bad on the shoulders IF you teach the dog to do it properly such as to rock back on their rear ends. Those that just teach the dog to fly and stop end up jamming their shoulders a bit.


Good info! Just wondered, best way you would go about teaching them to rock back?


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## christinaekenn

I do a LOT of tug work at the bottom of my contacts if the dogs are doing a 2O2O. This causes them to rock back onto their rears as they tug- they learn not to come off the contact either until released. It because a kind of game- I try to pull them off while tugging and they lean into their rears as hard as they can. Unless I am doing a running a-frame, I DON'T like the dog to float the apex because they tend to slam their shoulders.


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## LuvourGSDs

Ok, cool. Do you release with the tug still in their mouth? I normally don't give the toy till after they do what I wanted, but the idea of tugging rocking them back is cool. What if you don't use a toy?


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## wildo

SG also discusses the importance of teaching the dog to shift their weight back for 2o2o contacts in her book Shaping Success. It is a common theme in the book in reference to contact training, starting with teaching a firm, strong "backup" command.


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## christinaekenn

I release with the tug in their mouth. Eventually when I get the rock back, I don't tug on the contact anymore. I do a lot of race games on the flat too where I hold the dog like you would in flyball- this teaches the dog to push off the rear. I also do a TON of rear end awareness like Wildo mentions. One being the back up. I teach puppies to back up onto an object like a box as well and tug on that or release to food or toy off of the object. Unless there is a structure or health problem, the dogs naturally rock back onto the object so they can get a good push off. If you dog isn't well structured or fully sound on the rear, you can't do a whole lot to get them to rock back without being unfair. I would do running or 4 on the floor at that point.


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## wildo

AgileGSD said:


> I'll be very interested to hear what RC method she's decided to go with. Her course is specifically for running contacts?


Just watched the last coaching call for Recallers 3.0. At the end of the call she mentioned running contacts will NOT be covered in the contacts course she is developing. I think that's a real shame. She is offering a premise-based class for a small number of people at her facility to teach running contacts though. Hmmm... if only we could all drop everything in our lives and fly to Canada. I'm pretty bummed about this news...


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## Stosh

Are you coming to TX for the Internationals? It's in Ft Worth


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## wildo

Stosh said:


> Are you coming to TX for the Internationals? It's in Ft Worth


Is that directed at me? No... at least not at this point. I'll have to find some more info about this one.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Just watched the last coaching call for Recallers 3.0. At the end of the call she mentioned running contacts will NOT be covered in the contacts course she is developing. I think that's a real shame. She is offering a premise-based class for a small number of people at her facility to teach running contacts though. Hmmm... if only we could all drop everything in our lives and fly to Canada. I'm pretty bummed about this news...


You should email her and ask why. I'm wondering if it's because of the level of difficulty to teach a reliable running contact...


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You should email her and ask why. I'm wondering if it's because of the level of difficulty to teach a reliable running contact...


No, I don't believe this is the issue at all. In fact, she said on the call that she had come up with a method that was near 100% reliable in less than two weeks worth of work with Swagger _without_ tons of repetition.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> No, I don't believe this is the issue at all. In fact, she said on the call that she had come up with a method that was near 100% reliable in less than two weeks worth of work with Swagger _without_ tons of repetition.


There must be some good reason then.....


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> No, I don't believe this is the issue at all. In fact, she said on the call that she had come up with a method that was near 100% reliable in less than two weeks worth of work with Swagger _without_ tons of repetition.


 It sounds like she maybe isn't confident with how this method will work with other dogs?


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## wildo

Again, I don't really have the details. I know she is hosting a _private_ session at her facility for a very limited number of people for training running contacts. Perhaps that is the issue- that she wants to try it out on other dogs before "going live." I'm just not sure... What I do know is that I'm pretty bummed that it won't be in the course. It's hard to justify the (expected) high cost of a SG class (even online) when there is a TON of info available online. The running contacts stuff was a real selling point for me.


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> Again, I don't really have the details. I know she is hosting a _private_ session at her facility for a very limited number of people for training running contacts. Perhaps that is the issue- that she wants to try it out on other dogs before "going live." I'm just not sure... What I do know is that I'm pretty bummed that it won't be in the course. It's hard to justify the (expected) high cost of a SG class (even online) when there is a TON of info available online. The running contacts stuff was a real selling point for me.


 Especially when it was sort of implied it would be covered. 

I very much expect that she won't be teaching RCs on a large scale until multiple dogs trained with whatever method is she is using are successfully trialing. Because that seems to be how she is and because she's in the past said there was no reliable methods for training it that worked on all dogs.


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## AgileGSD

Just heard SG is offering her RC course for $5000...


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## wildo

I wasn't gonna announce that... Yeah- I watched the video (I'm not sure if it's public). I love SG as a trainer, but I think she's a little off her rocker on that one. Oh well.


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> I wasn't gonna announce that... Yeah- I watched the video (I'm not sure if it's public). I love SG as a trainer, but I think she's a little off her rocker on that one. Oh well.


 I saw it posted on FB, so I assumed it was public. I agree with you, she's a great trainer but I admit to having a bit of sticker shock when I saw that. I'm still super curious as to what her method is and if it's really totally new like her 2x2 Weaves were or if it's similar to existing methods.

I'm really surprised she's offering it now because she hasn't tested it fully in trials and what not with her dog and others. That was always her biggest issue with RCs, was that she didn't feel any method held up to heavy competition well enough with all dogs who were trained with it.


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## wildo

Here is a little promo in case you are curious.


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## AgileGSD

LOL just makes me more curious as if this is truly a "new" method or a rehash of someone else's! I'm very surprised she's willing to say this is a reliable method when the dog trained with it has only been on full sized equipment for 12 days and is not competing. Especially since her previous opinion of RCs was (and IMO not necessarily accurate) "I have had a few of you email me privately and one post to my blog why I thought a_ “fool-proof method of running contacts was unlikely.”_ I don’t pretend to have all of the dog training answers and I am not a pessimist about ANYTHING. However, I do believe I have a pretty good grasp of how behaviours are learned and how they are eroded. That is why I think a fool-proof, cookie-cutter running contact method is unlikely. Notice I didn’t say impossible, I am still holding out hope. But lets look at the facts, there is yet to be anyone running at the elite level of the sport that has produced a running contact with more than one dog that has stood up for the dogs’ entire career. " A Critical Key To Training the Running Contact? Susan Garrett’s Dog Training Blog

It's a bit mysterious overall! I guess we'll eventually find out though


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## wildo

I just don't have the patience to wait it out! haha! Fortunately, I also don't have the $5k to jump the gun!! :rofl:


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