# German Shepherd Kills 73 Year Old Woman.



## iLittleMiss (May 3, 2014)

Pensioner dies after being attacked by Cleveland police dog | Mail Online


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Not good at all.........


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder how often it is that police dogs in general bite people that are not perpetrators of crimes, but bystanders or residents. If it is not all that uncommon, and the reason we are hearing about this one is because the lady died, then maybe there needs to be changes in how the dogs are trained and used.

Or maybe this dog has a screw loose, and what happened was due to a bad decision by a single dog. Not to blame the dead lady, but I wonder how much of traits like suspicion could play in this. If the lady was very frightened the dog could easily have sensed that and turned his attention to her.

On the other hand the police were aware that the lady was there, and I am expecting that they should have done something differently to ensure her safety from their dog. 

This lady is the age of my parents. The idea of a trained GSD doing a full attack on one of them is horrifying. So sad that this happened.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Not good. This should not of happened,


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Attack dogs of any breed are trained to do just that. I have not seen any canine officers off of leash of handler. So need full truth before judgment. Though dog will be euthenized regardless.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

That is so awful.


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## Fade2Black (Apr 30, 2012)

Rule number one. Never give police permission to be on your property. Something bad could happen to you....

LE shoots your pet for seemingly any reason. But when one of theirs is out of control and attacking they let it kill someone. How many bullets would have been flying if it was an officer being torn apart??....

The handler should at a minimum be terminated for what happened.....


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Police don't carry guns in the UK, do they? I know nothing about their police dogs either, but......"the dog, described as a cross between a springer spaniel and an alsatian" Wait, what?? Springer spaniel? That's weird.

Very sad. Poor lady and her poor family.


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## Fade2Black (Apr 30, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Police don't carry guns in the UK, do they? I know nothing about their police dogs either, but......"the dog, described as a cross between a springer spaniel and an alsatian" Wait, what?? Springer spaniel? That's weird.
> 
> Very sad. Poor lady and her poor family.


Ding Ding ding......You are 110% correct and I was 110% wrong....

Gotta get this off my face-book page. Someone had told me about this being in Cleveland (USA). I was just so outraged with shootings in the US in just the last couple weeks I ran with it. LE in the UK and here is a complete different animal (so to speak). I am actually surprised this happened over there. While I think it's horrible that it happened. I don't think anything was malicious on the officers part. I also feel that unlike in the US. The officer will likely be disciplined or not _appropriately..._..


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The dog did NOT kill the poor lady....he bit her. She was in poor health, went into the hospital and passed there....probably of something totally unrelated to the dog bite. Older people die in hospital all the time of something totally different than what they went in for....a friend passed a few years back of pneumonia in the hospital...he went in to have a plastic surgeron do a repair on a botched surgery which gave him an inability to close his eye....10 weeks later he was still in hospital, had various escalated issues and passed. He was PLAYING GOLF the week before he went in for the eye problem.

Lee


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> cross between a springer spaniel and an alsatian" Wait, what?? Springer spaniel? That's weird.
> 
> Very sad. Poor lady and her poor family.


 My "assumption was that it was a "real' K9!

A Springer cross?? Who's bright idea was that?? Not a combo I'd ever chose to own myself. 

But I don't want to start 'Breed" bashing.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> The dog did NOT kill the poor lady....he bit her. She was in poor health, went into the hospital and passed there....probably of something totally unrelated to the dog bite. Older people die in hospital all the time of something totally different than what they went in for....a friend passed a few years back of pneumonia in the hospital...he went in to have a plastic surgeron do a repair on a botched surgery which gave him an inability to close his eye....10 weeks later he was still in hospital, had various escalated issues and passed. He was PLAYING GOLF the week before he went in for the eye problem.
> 
> Lee


 Aaaahhh, let's wait a minute. Regardless of her health, she had the right to live every moment she could, breathe every breath possible, before her eventual death. Yes, she *did* die from being attacked, even if it was because of the fear brought on by the attack. We certainly can't say what her quality of life was, nor can we predict how much longer she may have lived. Bottom line is, before the dog attacked she was alive, and as a result of the attack, she died.

Have you ever lost someone you love? Have you ever seen someone you love go down to 83 lbs. during her fight with cancer? I have. Try telling _*your*_ story to her loved ones.

Susan


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Chip18 said:


> My "assumption was that it was a "real' K9!
> 
> A Springer cross?? Who's bright idea was that?? Not a combo I'd ever chose to own myself.
> 
> But I don't want to start 'Breed" bashing.


Yes, my impression also was that this was a "real" K9. I have no idea what breeds of dogs they use as K9s in the UK. I just found having the springer in there really odd. But, what do I know?


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Yes, my impression also was that this was a "real" K9. I have no idea what breeds of dogs they use as K9s in the UK. I just found having the springer in there really odd. But, what do I know?


Evidently there is a problem in springer spaniels with aggression and rage after age 2. If rescuing, people are advised to get dog after age 4.

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Breeds/English-Springer-Spaniel/Personality.aspx


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I gotta agree with the first half of susan gsd mom, its like saying "the jogger that got picked off was going to die one day so why not that day" 


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I gotta agree with the first half of susan gsd mom, its like saying "the jogger that got picked off was going to die one day so why not that day"
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Exactly.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

no one said that. they said that she died from something else completely unrelated to the dog bite.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> no one said that. they said that she died from something else completely unrelated to the dog bite.


Lol ^ she ended up in the hospital and dying because. .that is what senior people do right?
Absolutely pathetic. Lets all discredit her because she was older. I cant help but wonder if it would have been a different song and dance if it was a angry rotti that bit her. 

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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's a tragedy, for sure - but the fact is, if I'd have been bitten I would have recovered, because I'm relatively young and healthy. The elderly succumb to complications all the time. Falling down and breaking a hip at that age can kill a person, and not because of the broken bone. I don't understand how the dog had the opportunity to do this though. You'd think it would be on a lead, with its handler?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with Susan and missleslee. The poor woman's death was directly related to the dog attack. Yes, she had cancer and was frail. The attack by this dog is what pushed her over the edge. Even if something negative had happened in the hospital, she was only in the hospital because of the dog attack.

One said: ‘She wasn’t bitten, she was mauled. A relative told me the dog had punctured and broken her arm, ripped her other arm, and then managed to bite off her calf muscle after it had been restrained.’

​


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How does a dog still manage to bite while its restrained?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I must be slow because i am having one heck of a hard time figuring out how someone can justify the incident by saying "well she was old so that is pretty much the reason she died" like this woman did not have a right to live. 
Everyone goes on and on and on about how its the people who are responsible for dog attacks, so this LEO he was responsible for the mauling of this woman, plain and simple. The dogs are so highly trained that they bite when told right? so what on earth was that dog doing biting her? 

Irene Collins, an elderly cancer patient of Middlesbrough has died over the weekend, after being attacked by an out of control Cleveland police K9 last Wednesday night.

The police had a heavy presence in her neighborhood that evening and were going door to door searching for an escaped alleged drug dealer.

Neighbors of the ill grandmother reportedly warned the officers she was frail and in bad condition. They went to her door to disturb her anyway.

The dog attacked the woman in her kitchen as she was leading the officers to her back yard.

One neighbor told the Daily Mail, ‘She wasn’t bitten, she was mauled. A relative told me the dog had punctured and broken her arm, ripped her other arm, and then managed to bite off her calf muscle after it had been restrained.’

That is okay right? its okay that it mauled her right in her very own kitchen because she had cancer anyways?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Of course it's not ok! Why get yourself all worked up, imagining that _anyone_ would think it's ok???


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

How unbelievably sad and tragic.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sigh.....don't turn it into something it is not. Of course I think it is terrible that the dog attacked the woman. Don't escalate what I said into something else. My point is that a younger, stronger person would not have died from a dog bite. It is terrible that this woman was attacked in her own home. YES...I agree with that. 

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Sigh.....don't turn it into something it is not. Of course I think it is terrible that the dog attacked the woman. Don't escalate what I said into something else. My point is that a younger, stronger person would not have died from a dog bite. It is terrible that this woman was attacked in her own home. YES...I agree with that.
> 
> Lee


I think I see what you mean.. that someone who was healthier, not necessarily younger, _could_ have survived these injuries, however because of her state and health she died from them.. is that kinda right?

I can't imagine anyone saying "it's ok because she's old" more that her body couldn't handle that type of injury so she died from it.. whereas it might have not been the case for someone else.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK SHE DIED BECAUSE SHE WAS OLD.

My friend who died did not die because of the surgery to his eye. 

NO ONE SAW HER DEATH CERTIFICATE WHICH WILL STATE THE CAUSE OF DEATH. 

Quit putting spins on what I said to make it look callous and unfeeling. It is not. Healthy people have an issue and it is an issue....unhealthy frail people with the same issue will compound and escalate and complicate into further issues. 

Don't make it into a drama. The headline dramatizes and escalates the situation which was the point I was trying to make - obviously failing.

Lee


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> I NEVER SAID IT WAS OK SHE DIED BECAUSE SHE WAS OLD.
> 
> My friend who died did not die because of the surgery to his eye.
> 
> ...


Whoa whoa whoa... let's go ahead and bring it down a notch... 

If you reread what I said.. it was actually on your side, clarifying what I thought you were meaning in your original post that others might have misunderstood..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The breed really doesn't matter or the condition of the victim. It's a system failure! Either training the handler, the dog or circumstances?? Something went wrong??

If it was a bomb sniffing "Beagle" and went off on JQP something went wrong?? That's the problem/question here.

How do they keep it from happening in the future?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If a bomb sniffing beagle bit an elderly cancer-patient in the lower leg, and because of the health of the victim, the wound, though treated, delayed in healing and became infected, and caused septicemia or staph which the weakened victim's system succumbed to, will we put on the death certificate, dog attack. And crucify the bomb sniffing dog handler and the breed?

It's a terrible tragedy. And if the one person's report is correct, that the lady was seriously bitten several times, then it is probably a failure of training and possibly a failure in breeding as well. But, it doesn't take several bites for an elderly person to succumb to a shock or injury. And if an older person sees your dog running out, barking to see the visitor, and the old person turns quickly and goes down and breaks a hip, and dies in the hospital -- is that a liability for the owner of the dog?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> If a bomb sniffing beagle bit an elderly cancer-patient in the lower leg, and because of the health of the victim, the wound, though treated, delayed in healing and became infected, and caused septicemia or staph which the weakened victim's system succumbed to, will we put on the death certificate, dog attack. And crucify the bomb sniffing dog handler and the breed?


My point was the "system failed" unless they figure out what went wrong it can happen again regardless of breed. 

Sorry guess it was a poor example, although I have seen bomb sniffing Begals at the Airport.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I guess I am in the middle on this. It definitely sounds like the dog went overboard on someone who was not a threat, and the handler did not control it. But the discussion here sparks for me more questions. 

If the lady slipped next to the working dog and fell on it and got a single puncture from a tooth, that landed her in the ER and got staph or septicemia from the wound and died, would it still be the dog and handler's fault? 

Should a dog be retired if the old guy or gal he bit in the course of his work was actually not a perpetrator, and then died of its injuries, if it would have done the same for a 22 year old punk that was the perp? I mean some old people are crazy, mean, drunk and ornery. I can see one getting bit up -- not saying this was the case here of course. 

But what would happen if a crazy, drunken, elderly fellow got into a tussel with a police dog. The police dog will probably win, and the elderly fellow will probably land his butt in the hospital. He may just be to mean too die, but if he does, would that go against the dog, even if the dog did exactly what it would have done for a younger, healthier perp?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The dog went inside the woman's home, after she had given permission to search her yard, mauled her and she died from complications. Period. 

The woman's death was caused by the attack. Period. The fact that she was older, less healthy, more prone to infection is irrelevant. Period. 

If this had been a toddler? The woman did the right thing. The police failed to protect her. If there was an inkling that the dog would do this, they should have removed her from the home while the dog was working. If the handler was incapable if controlling the dog off leash, it should have been leashed or the citizen protected. 

The fact that she was older is irrelevant. The fact is that the attack precipitated her death.

Say a person is hit by a reckless driver. They end up in a coma or paralyzed, years later they die from complications. Those complications would not have happened without the first issue. That reckless driver is at fault. Plain and simple. 

The handler and department are at fault. I see no other reasoning. 

I feel horrible for this woman's family. My prayers are with them. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, period.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, not ok, period. 

In most of the cops shoot dogs threads, everyone says wait for the results of the investigation, the news papers are all against cops. We don't have enough information. 

But here, we see a news story, and believe this one like the news has it, not sure why some news stories are to be trusted and others are not. Sometimes we wait for the results of investigations, and other times we call out the lynch mob. 

So just not sure of why there is a double standard here. Period.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I can patrol my own house, no cops allowed here if they say some garbage like "we need to search for a suspected drug dealer who got away". Its absolute nonsense for the cops to be that into chasing a suspect as to search citizens homes. 
RIP


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If some low-life scumbag is loose in my neighborhood, LE is more than welcome to search my premises. All I ask is that I have a second to crate my dog first. If their K9 rips out my throat and I die, then I give my permission to the media to run headlines about the dog killing me. Otherwise, no. If I die of complications, then they'd better get the story right. If you can blame the complications of a weakened immune system on the bite, and the consequences, then you can go a step further too: if I rush to the back door to see what my dog's barking at, trip on some spilled bird seed, and crack my head open, who do you blame for my death? My dog, for barking? The birds, for having seeds in the house? The neighbor, for slamming his car door and instigating my dog to bark? The breeder, for selling me a barker? Me, for wanting a barker? Where do you draw the line?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Girl, 4, attacked by police dog as she plays in park | Mail Online

Very old story but i guess it is safe to say that it is the little girls fault she went thru the park because she saw the dog and proceeded anyways. 
She chose to run so clearly that is why the off duty dog attacked, i mean silly child who runs around a park is just begging to be bit by a dog right? they dont make parks so kids can have fun you know.
Also i am gonna go out on a limb and say she is probably still scared of K9's? well so she should be, after all she was silly enough to go thru the park. It was totally not the fault of the off duty handler right? how could it have been. 
Just like it is not the fault of the k9 dog that this woman died of complications. She died because that is what happens to older people with frail immune systems, she probably would have kicked off anyways if the dog had not of bitten her..you know sooner then later.

Does is also mean that if a human puts another human in a coma and that person dies years later it is certainly NOT the fault of the person who put them there- because they died while in the coma and the coma is the cause?

How about the woman who gets all dolled up and hits the bar and gets raped? she probably should not off dressed like that because ya know, she asked for it right? 

It is all clear now.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Uh, so now we're adding apples and oranges and pears and bananas? Ok.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

misslesslee is right. And if that someone you put into a coma dies, you are now charged with murder. I bet, even if the the victim was a cancer patient that you shot, or stabbed, or beat into a coma, you would still be charged with murder.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's not even close to a comparison. Look up "Old Man's Friend" and then tell me what you think about that.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, Blanketback. A poor woman, who should be alive, is dead. Whether you want to blame the dog directly, indirectly, or not at all, the dog played a part and the woman is dead. That is sad and tragic. Arguing over it won't bring the poor soul back, or diminish what she suffered.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Well this took a nice turn.. All that is being said is the they dog bit a woman.. it was out of control of the handler, they are the true ones at fault here. No one is saying this woman died because she was old or that it was her fault.. just that the dog bite is not what killed her, it was complications from such combined with her already weakened immune system and body. NOT that this is ok in any mean, it still lies in the hands of the handler and the LE but the outcome may have been entirely different for someone who didn't have other complications to combine with the bite and was an otherwise truly healthy human being. The headline makes it seem that this woman was mauled by this dog and died on scene, which in fact, is wrong. That doesn't mean something shouldn't be done about the k9 and his handler..


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Jan, we do agree that this is sad and tragic. Nobody would deny that. I'm still trying to understand how the dog was able to inflict more damage while it was "restrained," because that's impossible. When I restrain my dog, he's under my control. I don't get it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the account given seems to come from a bit of a "rag" , sensational press .

BBC news and Huffington Post and other more sober responsible press give a different account. Yes she was bitten . Yes she passed away , several days after the incident .
In the link provided there is an account with arm broken , ripped the other , and tore the calf muscle from her leg.

No where is there a similar report . Always important to cross reference when reading .

This woman was very ill, and frail . Any injury was likely to be too much of a challenge for her .

It is a truly unfortunate incident .


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Blanketback said:


> If some low-life scumbag is loose in my neighborhood, LE is more than welcome to search my premises. All I ask is that I have a second to crate my dog first. If their K9 rips out my throat and I die, then I give my permission to the media to run headlines about the dog killing me. Otherwise, no. If I die of complications, then they'd better get the story right. If you can blame the complications of a weakened immune system on the bite, and the consequences, then you can go a step further too: if I rush to the back door to see what my dog's barking at, trip on some spilled bird seed, and crack my head open, who do you blame for my death? My dog, for barking? The birds, for having seeds in the house? The neighbor, for slamming his car door and instigating my dog to bark? The breeder, for selling me a barker? Me, for wanting a barker? Where do you draw the line?



Really?? You are comparing these things? The woman was bitten by the dog. Is that in dispute? She did not trip and fall into it's mouth. She was leading LE through her house to search her yard and was attacked. It is clearly gross negligence on the officers part. The dog should have been controlled and not able to attack the woman. Her health is irrelevant. 
She was not a threat to the dog or the officer. She was let down by the people who should have protected her. Again, PERIOD. 

I am aghast that people are placing any of the blame on her health. So what if a younger person would have survived. How does that matter.?

If my mother is hit by a drunk driver and succumbs it the DD fault. But if the same thing happened to me, and I survived, because I am younger and in better health, does that mean the DD is LESS at fault for my mothers death? No!! His actions and negligence caused my mothers death. Her state of health and age do not change the fact that he messed up. He got behind the wheel. 

I almost always fall on the side of LE, I am hugely grateful to them for allowing me peace and safety. I respect the heck out of them. But until I read otherwise, in this case, they messed up and a good citizen ended up dead. The fact that a younger person would have survived? Dare I say again, irrelevant. 









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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Really?? You are comparing these things? The woman was bitten by the dog. Is that in dispute? She did not trip and fall into it's mouth. She was leading LE through her house to search her yard and was attacked. It is clearly gross negligence on the officers part. The dog should have been controlled and not able to attack the woman. *Her health is irrelevant.*
> She was not a threat to the dog or the officer. She was let down by the people who should have protected her. Again, PERIOD.
> 
> I am aghast that people are placing any of the blame on her health. So what if a younger person would have survived. How does that matter.?
> ...


Your underlined, I agree with wholeheartedly. The bolded, IMO, is very wrong. It's obvious that there are two_ very_ different viewpoints going on here. I can't change your mind - but I would encourage you to think of the repercussions of allowing the general public to believe that K9s are so 'out of control' that a "restrained" dog is able to "kill" another human being, without any extenuating circumstances, such as very frail health.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So if a exuberant puppy runs up and bumps into a frail person and, because they are frail, they fall and break a hip, and then die in the hospital as a result of being old and having a broken hip, and just not being able to sustain the injury, should that death be attributed to the breed that the puppy is? 

If a puppy's sharp baby teeth or nails scratch or bite someone with a weakened immune system, should the cause of death be dog-bite? 

I guess I just want to hear more about the bite, what the handler's take is on the incident. The lady is dead. And there is no way to change that fact. But sometimes people do stuff that is totally odd around k9s. I guess I would feel a lot better about the situation if the dog did something understandable but very unfortunate. If the dog bit her one time, not ripping her calf muscle off as one of the less reputable rags has reported. I like to give the benefit of the doubt. 

If you or I slip on my sidewalk we may hurt, but are probably not going to die. If a seriously ill or very elderly person does, they might. And does that mean then that I am liable for that death? I don't think so. I kind of think that when your number is up, it's up. And maybe you didn't get a serious infection to a dog bite, but got a serious infection from a burn from your coffee. 

If you are committing a crime, like mugging an old lady, or driving under the influence, and because of your criminal activity, someone died, it's a totally different story I think. 

The handler of the dog did not wake up that morning and decide to put an old lady in jeapardy with his dog. Maybe he was seriously negligent. Somehow the dog manage to bite the lady, maybe more than once. But this is a situation with consequences that may affect a man's career, the dog's life, and the k9 department in that area, and I don't know that it should be judged by what was reported in the newspaper. It should be judged by people who have all the facts, and can make an unbiased decision.

I would be horrified if one of my parents died from being bitten by a police dog. That's awful. But there are an awful lot of bites where the bitten party says -- "oh, that was my fault, I shouldn't have ________." Fill in the blank. Just because someone is old or frail doesn't mean they are immune to making a dumb move around a dog -- and no one wants to say that happened, because the lady is dead, and no one wants to hear it.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

selzer said:


> The handler of the dog did not wake up that morning and decide to put an old lady in jeapardy with his dog. Maybe he was seriously negligent. Somehow the dog manage to bite the lady, maybe more than once. But this is a situation with consequences that may affect a man's career, the dog's life, and the k9 department in that area, and I don't know that it should be judged by what was reported in the newspaper. It should be judged by people who have all the facts, and can make an unbiased decision.
> 
> I would be horrified if one of my parents died from being bitten by a police dog. That's awful. But there are an awful lot of bites where the bitten party says -- "oh, that was my fault, I shouldn't have ________." Fill in the blank. Just because someone is old or frail doesn't mean they are immune to making a dumb move around a dog -- and no one wants to say that happened, because the lady is dead, and no one wants to hear it.


What makes you think that the local government is not going to be the ones making that decision? Somehow I don't think the fate of the dog and the handler is going to be determined by what is written or discussed on this board...............

I'm not sure what you want. The lady is dead. From all reports I have report it does appear that she died because of the bite. It is beyond tragic and my heart goes out to her family.

She could of made a dumb move, she could of tripped, the dog could of gone Cujo, we just don't know.

But she is dead and some of us are just horrified at that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Betty said:


> What makes you think that the local government is not going to be the ones making that decision? Somehow I don't think the fate of the dog and the handler is going to be determined by what is written or discussed on this board...............
> 
> I'm not sure what you want. The lady is dead. From all reports I have report it does appear that she died because of the bite. It is beyond tragic and my heart goes out to her family.
> 
> ...



I am just as horrified by the idea of it, but I think this site never makes any sense. Most of the time, they say, "we don't have enough information." But on this one, maybe because it is a dog that is at fault, they have all the info they need. The lady is dead. 

I guess I just don't buy the idea that, so long as someone is dead, if a dog was involved, the case is closed. 

I guess suggesting the possibility of wrong doing by a dead person is taboo. Suggesting the news may not have given the actual facts if someone is dead is also taboo. 

And suggesting a possibility that is not the commonly approved opinion, shared by the mods is taboo, period.


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