# When do you move your puppy outside into a kennel?



## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

I got my puppy at 8 weeks and he's been inside in his crate every night for the last 6 weeks. I've already decided to have a kennel outside with protection from the weather but I am uncertain on exactly when he would be safe to move out of the house. During this time of year the temperatures at night dip to about 55-60 and a min of 48F in the coldest winter nights which he wont see until he is almost a year old. I planned to move him out when he out grew his crate but I am wondering if that is necessary as I can just continue the crate training method in a partitioned kennel. 

So what is everyones suggestions with when I can be confident to move Sagan out to his kennel? This is more of a question of his physical comfort than bonding as I take him to work with me and he's by my side the majority of the day.

Thanks


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Why wouldn't you want your dog to live inside with you?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I would keep him inside with you - he will want to be with you. The Monks of New Skete in their book "How to be Your Dog's Best Friend" have an helpful chapter on the importance of having your dog sleep in the bedroom with you (but on the floor)


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

MichaelE said:


> Why wouldn't you want your dog to live inside with you?


Do we have to go through this again? There is a dogma in this forum that the only acceptable way to own a dog is for the dog to live inside. 
There is no point in arguing with people who hold this 'religious' belief.
The OP has already defensively stated that his dog spends a lot of time with him, perhaps already anticipating the usual disapproval of the '"no outside dog" crowd. Predictably the first post in response doesn't even give due respect to the OP's question but starts proselytizing.

To answer the OP's question, your pup at 14 weeks can comfortably live in an outside kennel at 55 degrees. By next winter, he should be comfortable in an outside kennel at 48. He is a German shepherd, a breed that started out as a herding dog in harsh weather Germany. The temperatures in Maui should be a breeze as his body naturally adapts to the mild seasonal changes there. I would be more concerned about the heat in the hottest months and the rain in the wettest. However, you said his kennel is weather proof so I assume you have that taken care of with adequate shade, drinking water and rain proofing.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

He will be inside occasionally but I want him outside most of the time for both his own sanity in not being stuck indoors and also to serve better protection for my home at night. Currently the property isn't fully fenced so until then he will be in the kennel or on lead when outside. Being/sleeping inside isn't an option for much longer for many reasons but mostly because he's a dog (which I love) and I have particular standards inside that I couldn't fairly expect my dog to obey (shedding isn't a choice after all).


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

A dog out in a kennel cannot protect you, your house or anything else.

A dog in the back yard will only protect your lawn mower while a thief is inside stealing your jewelry and electronics.

A dog in you home can protect you while you sleep, and protect your stuff when you're away.

Why do you want to keep it in a kennel where it is useless?


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Ocean said:


> Do we have to go through this again? There is a dogma in this forum that the only acceptable way to own a dog is for the dog to live inside.
> There is no point in arguing with people who hold this 'religious' belief.
> The OP has already defensively stated that his dog spends a lot of time with him, perhaps already anticipating the usual disapproval of the '"no outside dog" crowd. Predictably the first post in response doesn't even give due respect to the OP's question but starts proselytizing.
> 
> To answer the OP's question, your pup at 14 weeks can comfortably live in an outside kennel at 55 degrees. By next winter, he should be comfortable in an outside kennel at 48. He is a German shepherd, a breed that started out as a herding dog in harsh weather Germany. The temperatures in Maui should be a breeze as his body naturally adapts to the mild seasonal changes there.


Thanks for the info that's really helpful. I know the breed can handle much colder temperatures but I know usually puppies come in the spring so I was still a little uncertain on the actual temperature tolerance for them as they're young.

Do you have any input on the upper threshold and hotter weather I should try to avoid? Thankfully I live in a pretty moderate elevation and the range is between 48-80 but down at sea level it can get upwards to 90. I know gsds that live by the ocean where it gets warmer but it can't certainly be very comfortable for them.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Rallhaus said:


> A dog out in a kennel cannot protect you, your house or anything else.
> 
> A dog in the back yard will only protect your lawn mower while a thief is inside stealing your jewelry and electronics.
> 
> ...


Well as I said the kennel should only be temporary before I am confident he will reamin inside the fence line. As for the purpose of protection in the interim, I am a light sleeper and the kennel is close to the only door that has access to my home so all I need is a few barks and I can inspect what is going on.


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

Unless your fence will be going all the way around your yard with a gate at the driveway, keeping a dog in the yard is not offering much protection.

A "backyard fence" will not help when the bad guy comes in the front door.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Rallhaus said:


> Unless your fence will be going all the way around your yard with a gate at the driveway, keeping a dog in the yard is not offering much protection.
> 
> A "backyard fence" will not help when the bad guy comes in the front door.


That's exactly how the property will be secured. Is there anything else you would like to know for my reason to ask the initial question? I can send you pictures of the current fence and gate if you want to give me your opinion on how secure it is and if it is gsd friendly...


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Sagan said:


> Do you have any input on the upper threshold and hotter weather I should try to avoid? Thankfully I live in a pretty moderate elevation and the range is between 48-80 but down at sea level it can get upwards to 90. I know gsds that live by the ocean where it gets warmer but it can't certainly be very comfortable for them.


As long as your dog has access to shade and water, and is healthy, 90 degrees should not be a problem. Just don't expect to go running several miles with him. In hotter weather it would be nice for him to have access to water where he can dunk himself. I have 5 gallon horse feeding troughs made of hard rubber that they basically use as bath tubs in hot weather that they have free access to. If you have a clean pond or a pool or an old bath tub that'll work too. One benefit with dogs that spend a lot of time outside is that their bodies and coats can gradually adapt to natural temperature and weather changes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sagan said:


> When do you move your puppy outside into a kennel?


I don't.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Ocean said:


> As long as your dog has access to shade and water, and is healthy, 90 degrees should not be a problem. Just don't expect to go running several miles with him. In hotter weather it would be nice for him to have access to water where he can dunk himself. I have 5 gallon horse feeding troughs made of hard rubber that they basically use as bath tubs in hot weather that they have free access to. If you have a clean pond or a pool or an old bath tub that'll work too. One benefit with dogs that spend a lot of time outside is that their bodies and coats can gradually adapt to natural temperature and weather changes.


Thanks, for the most part he will be in the same cooler climate. The warmer times will just be for the few hours in the back of my truck (shaded), on a hike or at the beach. So I'll make sure to have water and the necessities to keep him comfortable.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what can a puppy learn outside in a kennel, Sagan and Ocean?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm curious exactly why, if shedding is an issue, why you got a breed that sheds? You could have just as easily have gotten a poodle and had that alert capability. After all potential intruders would rather not deal with a dog anyway as a dog IN THE HOUSE doesn't make the property desirable. Thieves want the easy in and out. A dog prevents that.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My uncle is a k9 officer. His dog is with him for his entire 12 hour shift. Plus training. Plus free time play/socialization. His dogs have always been kenneled in the back yard/garage. Guess that's cruel for a dog that spends 15+ hours of the day with him? 

OP already stated the dog goes to work with him. That's spending more time with him than many people who's dogs are passed out on the couch while they work all day

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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My two GSD's are outside during the day in summer and spring. It keeps them acclimated to the weather. If it's bad weather they come inside and at night they are inside. During cooler weather they spend most time inside. They always work when it's cold, it's the heat they have to get used to. My puppy has been outside during the day in a run or x-pen since I got him at 8 weeks.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

by no means be confident your dog will remain inside the fence line.
don't count on your dog being protective. some GSD's are protective
some aren't. 



Sagan said:


> Well as
> 
> >>>> I said the kennel should only be temporary before I am confident he will reamin inside the fence line.<<<<
> 
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think passed out on the couch means the dog is indoors.
is your dog indoors or outside? the OP wants to leave a puppy
outside and when the dog is older he wants to leave the dog
outside without a fenced in yard.



Anubis_Star said:


> My uncle is a k9 officer. His dog is with him for his entire 12 hour shift. Plus training. Plus free time play/socialization. His dogs have always been kenneled in the back yard/garage. Guess that's cruel for a dog that spends 15+ hours of the day with him?
> 
> OP already stated the dog goes to work with him. That's spending more time with him than many people who's dogs are
> 
> ...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sagan said:


> He will be inside occasionally but I want him outside most of the time for both his own sanity in not being stuck indoors and also to serve better protection for my home at night. Currently the property isn't fully fenced so until then he will be in the kennel or on lead when outside. Being/sleeping inside isn't an option for much longer for many reasons but mostly because he's a dog (which I love) and I have particular standards inside that I couldn't fairly expect my dog to obey (shedding isn't a choice after all).


I LOVE it when people think having their dog OUTSIDE protects their house!

And so do the criminals.  Hey, will I break into the house with the German Shepherds inside the home? Or safely penned in the outside kennel? Heck, they are constantly bothering the neighbors by barking all the time anyways... so the fact this ONE TIME there are burglars breaking in won't make a difference. :wild:

I don't mind brief kenneling opportunities in a large fenced in kennel if an owner knew they had to be gone for a long period of time during the day for an ADULT dog. But GENERALLY leaving dogs outside is not good for them (or the neighbors). ESPECIALLY when they are young (someone said 14 weeks? I STRONGLY disagree with that age for ANY pup/reason).

http://www.mdspca.org/petcare/documents/doginout.pdf

:apple:


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I LOVE it when people think having their dog OUTSIDE protects their house!
> 
> And so do the criminals.  Hey, will I break into the house with the German Shepherds inside the home? Or safely penned in the outside kennel? Heck, they are constantly bothering the neighbors by barking all the time anyways... so the fact this ONE TIME there are burglars breaking in won't make a difference. :wild:


This. A dog outside can be easily poisoned, shot or stolen. If a criminal really wants your stuff all he has to do is throw an anti-freeze laced steak over your fence and come back a couple days later. Never mind the potential for kids to tease your dog. Or what happens if one day they jump the fence to get their ball back and the "guard" dog bites them?

On top of that, an outside dog that barks gets ignored by the neighbors (if you are lucky) or it gets reported to AC. Either way, it's not going to be an alarm to get help as far as your neighbors are concerned.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

my old pitty stayed only outside, i let him inside when ever he wanted, but he was so energetic that the confined limited space inside was not nearly as appealing as the massive space, smells, sounds there are outside. his coat is not nearly suited to cold/rain but he loved running out in the rain, jumping in puddles. after all he is a dog!

i just don't understand how a large portion of this forum supports working breeds, raw feeding(the way nature intended) and then dogs staying inside?? hardly what nature intended.

i dont think its wrong for a dog to be inside or out. i think its up to the owner to decide what both they and the dog are happiest with.
i understand the pack association that dogs have with people. but the fact is that many people who are dog owners work 9-5 so its good for a dog to learn to be with out them for these 8 hours.
my next door neighbor has a poodle which stays outside(never been in the house) smartest little thing i have ever seen and soo well behaved. is he wrong to keep it outside? i think not

i dont think it is fair to tell someone what to do with their dog(unless it is harming the dog which it isnt)

German shepherds are very adaptable, feed him well, train him and spend much time with him and he will be very happy. they are quite good with weather but just make sure he has assess to water and shade all the time. these dogs are herding/working dogs, they are very durable.

not meaning to start a debate or anything. just my 2c worth.

regards.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Wow, I may have prefaced my question a bit differently had I known so many people have an issue with an outdoor dog. I suppose the reason for kenneling or having an outside dog matters but all the input seems irrelevant to my initial question. 

While I don't think I need to justify my choice I'll answer the couple questions/critiques. I would have been more specific to my situation earlier had I expected the disapproval. 



> what can a puppy learn outside in a kennel, Sagan and Ocean?


I don't have any intention in teaching my dog anything by putting him in the kennel. But maybe it's an opportunity to exercise his patience in being alone for a period of time without much stimuli. 



> I'm curious exactly why, if shedding is an issue, why you got a breed that sheds?


Shedding isn't the only issue for being inside but just one I listed. I got a gsd because I love the breed for many more reasons than what I know any of the cons being. 



> by no means be confident your dog will remain inside the fence line.
> don't count on your dog being protective. some GSD's are protective
> some aren't.


Yes, living with the assumptions of any absolutes can be unwise but it helps to prepare for the unexpected. Keeping in mind of the pitfalls when installing a fence can most likely prevent any escapes, especially when it's 8' high with only one gate. As for the protection I plan to introduce defensive drive work after my puppy becomes old enough for his nerves to handle any stress without fearing any action of cowardice or drive inhibition. 



> the OP wants to leave a puppy
> outside and when the dog is older he wants to leave the dog
> outside without a fenced in yard.


I either misrepresented my intention or you misunderstood. My dog will never be outside unattended without being in a secure fenced property. 



> And so do the criminals. Hey, will I break into the house with the German Shepherds inside the home? Or safely penned in the outside kennel? Heck, they are constantly bothering the neighbors by barking all the time anyways... so the fact this ONE TIME there are burglars breaking in won't make a difference.


Right now, and for the foreseeable future, I take my dog every time I leave, so he would be both absent from his kennel or inside the home whenever I am away and a burglar wanted to rob my house. My intention for 'protection' is when I am at home and would want to be alerted.



I appreciate the feed back but understand that just because someone has an outdoor dog they don't have legitimate reasons. There could be many limitations to an indoor pet that are justifiable reasons for keeping your dog outside weather permitting. (1)Perhaps someone is a renter and can't afford to sacrifice the security deposit for the scratched floors or other potential damage. (2)Maybe, even though there isn't much precedent, an owner with toddlers isn't willing to take the one in a million chance that the dog is always going to act appropriately. (3)Having multiple dogs might not make it reasonable to have them all inside at once and being outside keeps them happy and entertained playing. I'm not saying these specifically apply to me but they, and may others, are realistic reasons why an outdoor gsd is better than an indoor one.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

its one thing to leave a dog outside during the day while you're gone. It's entirely another for them to be full outside dogs. Whether the OP spends a pretty large amount of time with the dog or not. Dogs left outside to their own devices are dogs that are more susceptible to being shot, poisoned, getting you a citation for a barking dog, escaping, biting someone uncalled for, etc...

Then you consider that a bored dog will dig, bark, generally destroy things because its something to amuse them. A dog that barks often then becomes ignored by the owner because after checking on every bark with nothing, the owner starts to enter the mindset of "it's nothing like usual". What good does that do. A dog inside with the owner is far more likely to deter a robbery INSIDE than outside. It's very easy to bypass a dog confined to the yard. 

Then take into consideration a very large portion of responsible breeders now have a clause in their contract that states the dog will be inside as a member of the family and not left in the yard as an outside dog. They have legal rights to basically repossess the dog if word got back to them somehow that you are failing to keep up your end of the contract, ESPECIALLY that part because careful planning goes into the lineage for these dogs because they care. Leaving your dog in the yard full time leaves so many dangerous possibilities open, the list gets pretty long. 

My dogs are mainly inside dogs because that's where they prefer to be because that's where we are. They go hiking with us and out and about but they choose to stay inside. If I felt safe and confident in leaving them outside for a couple hours a day to play and goof off, I probably would. But I also can't because our current living arrangement prevents me from leaving dogs outside unattended for more than an hour at a time. 

Yes, these dogs were intended to be herding dogs which has them outside a large part of their lives tending livestock. These dogs were also bred to work closely with the handler to achieve this task. These dogs are intended to want to be with their person as much as possible and work with their person and they cant do that if they're relegated to the backyard


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Well put KZoppa. Hopefully it will be considered.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I kennel most of my dogs outside. They do fine. They are acclimated to the weather outside. There is not one thing inside my house that my dogs need when I am not there. 

An outdoor kennel allows a dog or puppy the opportunity to run, stretch, nap, potty, relax in a completely safe environment. Inside, the dog would be crated, or subject to things that if ingested could hurt him. 

Some of my outdoor kennels have indoor sections, and I normally have at least one bitch in the house besides those. If you are spending time with the dog, where he sleeps, and where he resides when you are not there doesn't really matter.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My aunt lives on a vwry large ranch. Largely lacking in fences. Has a gsd that has gone through pp work. There is a dog door to the main ranch house but that dog NEVER goes inside. He goes inside to eat and that's it.

I guess she better just get rid of him. That poor abused dog.

The op is clearly going to have a fenced yard. The dog goes to work with him daily. The op sounds like he takes the dog with him frequently on errands etc. It seems like the amount of time that dog would actually be outside alone is minimal - as in when it's bed time. Whats the difference between my dog sleeping in a crate in a back room or his dog sleeping in a weather proofed run outside?

This dog is not alone outside on a chain 24/7!! Stop seeing the small percentage you want to see to judge and look at the whole picture! My personal dogs go to work with me. Then we do a lot of training and play outside the home. When we're home my dogs are largely sleeping. 

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i think passed out on the couch means the dog is indoors.
> is your dog indoors or outside? the OP wants to leave a puppy
> outside and when the dog is older he wants to leave the dog
> outside without a fenced in yard.


Do you like to just see the parts you want and ignore the rest? I meant his dog is at work WITH HIM while the average dog is home ALONE on the couch while it's owner is at work. How is that better?

And he clearly said the dog would have run of the yard once it was fully fences with a gate. 

BTW berlin and zeke were in the back yard for 6 hours tonight. After berlin went to a 12 hour work shift with me, then we went straight to schutzhund club from work, 9am-1 pm. So when I got home I threw the dogs out back with water and bones so I could sleep. Are my dogs abused? I should probably get rid of them. You want them? Since you clearly sound like a much better home

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Tank and I - the neglected ranch dog 

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sorry phone error -

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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Who knew this simple question about climate could have inspired such a heated debate. I appreciate the concern everyone has and understand the cynicism and general negative perspective as I know the average person has an elitist attitude when it comes to pet rearing. 

Ill keep it short but the truth is that it would serve everyone much better to stay on topic and not try to thrust your opinions on others unless they're asked for. The majority of the posts would be a lot more relevant if I ask "Im thinking about kennelling my dog outside what do you think about this?" I have already decided it and it was more of a question on when. If I had concerns about safety issues or dealing with neighbors I would have asked. To the point of dangers outside, has anyone considered the indoors dangers? 110/220 volts of electircity if chewing on a cord? Breaking and getting cut on glass objects? Life is dangerous and it's about minimizing those dangers to the best of our abilities and I feel the best way to do that is to surround the animal in it's most natural environment. Would you still have the same concern if I told you I live on 40 acres of pasture land and I'm fencing 4 of it which is why it's not finished? 

Its just really strange that everyone seems to have the right answer for a scenario they know nothing about. Sure everyone does there best to make reasonable assumptions to better help others but it would save time and energy to entertain alternative options than how you think the worst scenario would be.


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## Loz (Feb 25, 2013)

Here, here Sagan!! Unfortunately a lot of people cannot see past what they know themselves and unfortunately what they know is restricted to their own choices....which makes everyone else's wrong!! 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

This dog could be living in worse circumstances , has anyone looked at his location? Maui) 

While my dogs may live a different lifestyle than the OP's and I may not want for my dogs what he has in mind for his, that's my choice. 

Everyone is entitled to choose whatever they wish for their own circumstance.

The same as everyone is entitled to their opinion and is able to post it on this board.
You (general you) take what information helps you and ignore the rest, simple as that

As to the original question, I know the temps seem pretty warm where you are. I'm not real sure exactly how old your puppy is? Personally if I was going to do this, I probably would start kenneling outside when he's around 5 mths old , but if it's colder at nite maybe bring him in/crate him at nite in the house until he's a little older, the temps warm up and he's adjusted.

Just want to add, I do think concerns like poisoning/escaping/having shelter/shade/access to water all the time is something to keep in mind


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess my main concern (and this would go with ANY unsupervised outside stays) is the danger of escape. Having had several dogs over the years that spent a lot of time outside while I was at work, I no longer leave dogs outside. There is a LOT of work to be done before you could trust that your dog can't get out .. I've had some dogs climb the fence and others dig two feet down to go under, probably in response to an outside stimuli, so that I no longer trust a fence except as a barrier while we're outside playing.


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## elizabethtrotchie (May 10, 2013)

Since my husband and i own our own company our pup goes with us to work,he also is a house dog, but every dog loves to be outside sometimes. Since when is it cruelty for your dog to be outside sometimes though? As long as the owner takes the nesesary precautions and the dog is still well socialized I see nothing wrong with it

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## Swifty (May 11, 2013)

If I'm away from home my puppy is either in her crate or in the kennel outside. She hasn't shown much interest in chewing furniture but she isn't trusted yet with having the run of the house without supervision (plus she is constantly fighting with our older Golden). I think she would prefer having more space in the outside kennel rather than the crate.

I would love to be able to take her with me to work, though. We're very attached to each other.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I waited until my pup was older before I started leaving him outside while I was at work. I wanted to make sure that he didn't dig, howl or bark all day when I'm not home. I'm thinking he was somewhere between 6-8 months old. 

As my boys don't bark at silly things, the neighbors know when my dogs are barking something is amiss.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

My Kennel is outside gets too much sun but I have tarps to provide shade fresh water and insulated dog house. In the winter I put up plastic barriers to block snow drift and wind (I live in Canada)

My puppy started staying outside in his kennel a little at a time at 9 weeks, 8-9weeks he was with me all the time everywhere I went, starting at 9weeks-10weeks I knew I was going back to work at 10 weeks so I needed him used to his kennel.

I started him in short windows (10-20minutes) I started feeding him exclusively in his kennel to make the kennel a "Good Place" I also provided a heavy sweater that I used to use all the time so he had my scent in the kennel with him (This helped EMENSELY until he was a bit older and it became a chew toy)

By time I was done 10weeks he was staying 4-6 hours in his kennel while me and my wife were working..I consider the kennel much more humane than a crate (Though he does sleep beside me in his crate at night, and **** sometimes I sleep on the floor right beside him)

I think the kennel is great he loves it (Well more than his crate) during the day, I haven't had him sleep outside I'd be too worried he'd bark at everything and wake the neighbors.


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