# GSD Kills Westie



## RDalton (Sep 7, 2005)

Left my GSD (4 year old bitch) alone with my wifes west highland terrier (12 year old bitch) when I came back the GSD had mangled the westie, she had to be put down. 
The GSD has a lovely temperment and is very well trained in obedience, the westie is a westie but they have been left together and grown up together without any problems, the only problem now is my wife also has a chihuahua (7 year old bitch) and does not want the GSD back. 
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I once came home to what looked like the set of a horror movie. Blood splattered on the walls, floor - even ceiling.

My then 3 yr old bitch had gone after my then 2 year old bitch. Both intact. Both had lived together up until that point with no signs of problems.

Luckily the younger bitch survived but I learned a valuable lesson - *NEVER* leave two bitches alone together. While you may be able to do it for years and years with no problem all it takes is ONE fight and it could prove deadly.

If the GSD has never shown signs of problems while you are present then I wuold be comfortable with her being around the Chi - when you are PRESENT.

If you leave - CRATE HER.


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

This is so scary to me!!!! I have 2 Cairn Terriers and I leave Dozer alone with them all the time! I was hoping if they grew up together that would never be an issue. They all get a long great and love each other. I would feel bad leaving Dozer alone but I may be rethinking that after reading this. My main concern before getting a GSD was the safety of my Cairns and I will NOT put them in danger.
Dozer is still a puppy so I do not think that will be an issue now but I will be changing the setup when I am not home soon then.
They have never shown signs of aggression with each other but they play rough and I get worried it will escalate.

Had the GSD and the Westie been together since puppies?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang *NEVER* leave two bitches alone together.


Agree. This is always a risk with bitches, be they intact or spayed. 

Never leave them alone together, no matter how well they seem to get along. When you are not there to supervise, put one in a crate or kennel or use doors and baby gates to separate them giving each it's own space in the house where they can't get together when you are not home.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ditto - I have had 2 bitch fights - and hope to NEVER see one again - I was alone at a tracking field out in the middle of nowhere the last one....I truly thought I would have a dead dog before it ended....I tried to break it up, and finally wrapped a quilt around their heads hopeing they would not be able to breath and break apart...it worked.

I never leave any dogs alone loose in the house now. I used to let Kelsey (spayed) and Kyra together with no issues, but will not even leave Furi and Basha together loose alone now...and they can both be in the same room loose in standing heat with nothing more than some attempts at mutual mounting....I keep a sharp eye on them and both are very obedient...so I can break that up quickly...

The GSD or the Chi should be watched and not left alone loose...I understand your wife's pain and anger, though.....but it was dogs doing what dogs do naturally...unfortuantely - I am sorry for your loss....

Lee


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Dalton, your problem has two solutions, Crate the GSD and keep the Chi in another room then you aren't home or if your wife won't tolerate that then rehome the dog. Do not make your GSD an outside dog away from humans. Also with your situation the Westie could have been showing signs of age. It is instinct for females to get rid of the old female.

I have 3 bitches and one currently intact and 2 spayed. I never never leave them alone together. They are never even outside together unless I am there to supervise.

Once bitches fight there is no getting back the good freindship.

Keep the safe and keep them apart when you aren't there to supervise.

Here are some of my favorite Bitch Sayings

Males fight for breeding rights - Female fight for BREATHING rights.

Bitches equal stitches.


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## RDalton (Sep 7, 2005)

The terrier would have seen the GSD grow up

I am fully aware of the fact that bitches fight and it was my fault, I would imagine that the terrier overstepped the mark and paid the ultimate price. I know it would not have happened if I was present and she would not go near the chihuahua if I were present but the problem lies in the fact that my wife wants nothing to do with the GSD now and thinks that our daughter (5 year old girl) could be in danger. I know this not to be the case but thats how it lies at present. The dog is with a friend and trainer and he has been brilliant, he will mind her for a long as I like but that is not a long term solution. Attached is a pic of the two of them together. 










She had a op recently so thats why her leg is shaved.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

If your wife insisting that your GSD leave your family forever? Would she be doing the same thing if the Westie had killed the GSD (unlikely, but possible).

Not trying to cause problems, but her reaction to the situation makes me shake my head


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## RDalton (Sep 7, 2005)

Good answer Winkin


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I had a situation here once where a large dog killed a small dog I had in foster care. I still don't like talking about it but I'm throwing it out here on the possible chance some of my experience may help you in what you're going through. It will haunt me until the day I die. It was horrible and it was preventable but I let it happen because I had never seen any signs of such a thing, the GSD had been around small dogs plenty before, and I thought the dogs would be "fine" playing together in the yard while I washed the dishes inside. Sadly, it was not fine at all. Lesson learned now, too late to help that poor sweet dog. His ashes are with my passed pets ashes and I will keep them forever in his memory and as a reminder of what can happen when we ever get complacent. 

When it happened I went through a long period of grief. Not just for the dog who died and guilt with myself but grief because I felt betrayed by the GSD who had done it. It was devastating to me that a dog I trusted could be a "killer." I imagine this is partly how your wife is feeling now. This dog "murdered" her pet. It's hard for her to even look at the GSD without thinking of what happened. And if she saw her dog, those are very painful images for her right now. You look at the dog and for them everything is "normal" when you are so torn up inside. You feel like they don't "care." And I say this as a long time big dog person who should know better, but I still felt that way. I wish there were an easy fix, but ultimately it takes time. Over time I finally came to terms with the fact (which I always knew, but really had to accept) that dogs are not people. They don't know and they don't understand things in the same way we do. It's not that they don't "care" it's that they don't have any concept of this stuff. Your dog has no idea that the Westie is dead and certainly not that she caused it. It took a while but eventually I made my peace with it. I stopped looking at the dog and feeling that way. I changed my supervision practices and will never make that mistake again. But the whole thing takes time.

Given that the Westie was not dead when you got home, it is unlikely the GSD meant to kill her, but, as you say, they probably got in a fight that the GSD was clearly going to win. I don't know if that helps or not. I think the best thing you can do is talk to your wife and listen to her feelings about it. Let her tell you how upset she is, how hurt she is, and how scared for her other dog. She may also be very angry with your dog and in some way want to hurt her back or just remove this constant reminder of what happened. Since the GSD is not her dog, she may be especially likely to feel like the dog is "unpredictable" or dangerous and want her gone. But, while any dog with teeth can bite, these dog-dog incidents have no bearing whatsoever on a dog's aggression towards people and this incident does not in any way raise the level of danger your Shepherd poses towards your daughter. Obviously it does put you on alert to be very careful in all interactions with the Chihuahua. 

But regardless, let your wife tell you how she feels and like you're taking her feelings seriously. I'm NOT telling you to get rid of your GSD. I am hoping you do not. I'm just saying that healing can take a while and you hopefully want to be on the same side so that the household isn't in factions over the situation. The more safety precautions you can put in place, the better, for the Chihuahua's safety and everyone's peace of mind. Ask her how she'd feel about tabling the decision for some period of time, say 4 months, during which you will work together to find ways to make things better - more supervision, as we've said, dog's never alone together, but maybe also additional training classes or something else that might give her more peace of mind.

This is already too long but mainly I just wanted to say that I've been there and I understand how hard this is. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with such a tragic situation. It does get better, but it does take a while.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I go beyond that and never leave two dogs of any sex alone period unless supervised. It's very easy for them to start playing, and then get amped up a bit. I've seen dogs get tangled in collars and strangle one another, or at the very least destroy parts of the house while playing rough. Then, there's always the possibility of a fight. It's just not worth it. I split my house in half, and give my female the front and my male the back and basement.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

The reaction your wife's had is to be expected, and is part of the grief over loosing the Westie, and shock that the GSD could/would do such a thing. I experienced the same thing from my late partner, Marina, when one of the big dogs accidentally killed her little Pappilion. As you said about the Westie, she was being a typical Pap, and objected to the bigger dogs blocking her from a doorway and snapped in anger @ the bigger bitch. The GSD snapped back, and the Pap was killed (broke her neck on the doorway). I know it wasn't intentional... but the pain/grief ruled for quite a while afterwards. I did not remove the GSD from the house, but did crate either she or the other small dogs we had if I wasn't with them. Eventually Marina did get past seeing the GSD as a murderer... but it took time.

If you could begin bringing the GSD home for an hour to be in the yard with you, then gradually extend the time so that your wife is forced to deal with her aversion and hopefully start to relate to her again?? The whole success or failure will depend on that. Keeping the dog away 100% will only strengthen your wife's fears and discomfort with her. Don't bring the other little dog nor the child around the GSD right now... as it will heighten your wife's fears... work into the whole return to the home/house slowly... but I'd suggest you begin now. Be prepared or your wife NOT to like the idea. But you both have rights, and it's definately worth pushing the issue a bit to see if you can bring her around...

Good luck


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

It def. will take time to get over. Vishnu (RIP) killed a 3 wk old puppy I had in my bedroom to supplement as she wasn't gaining like the rest. I didn't even realize the bedroom door wasn't completely shut. I went to tend to the rest of the litter. Hubby came to tell me pup was dead. Apparently pup had started making noise, Vishnu either thought she was a squeaky toy or wanted to comfort her, don't know. He tried picking her up and punctured her, killing her. I know it wasn't intentional but I couldn't stop crying and calling him PK (puppy killer) for months.


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

I know that this has been something I think about a lot and after reading this I will NEVER leave my Cairns alone with Dozer now. This is the most terrifying thin I thought about before getting a GSD. He is still a puppy so I am not super worried now but I will be separating them soon.

I am so sorry about the little Westie and your wife must be devastated, I would be and I am not sure how I would feel about my GSD after.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

GSDs are in general pretty good (as large breeds go), it's just that when an accident does happen, you'd give anything to go back and change things. And even a very non-aggressive non-predatory dog can get in a funky situation, as someone else mentioned, where collars get tangled and the dogs panic. Just because of his size, Dozer has so much more potential to hurt the little guys, even without ever meaning to. 

Better safe than sorry is now our motto.


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## BucksMom (Aug 13, 2007)

So sorry to hear about the Westie.

Can you crate you wifes Chihuahua that would be the safest thing.

I have 5 Chihuahua's, 3 GSD's, I do not leave my Chi's loose with the GSD's. All my dogs are crated separately. Each Chihuahua has their own crate, each GSD has their own crate.
Works great and everyone stays safe.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Maybe you could get the trainer to talk to the wife about the GSD being no danger to your daughter.


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm sorry for what you've been through. Thank you for sharing this story because I did not know about not leaving females together. I may get a second dog in the future and it is good to know this.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I have a question.

I've heard a lot about bitch fights, but having never owned two females at the same time, have no experience.

Is this peculiar to GSDs, or do bitches of other breeds tend toward the same behavior?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Barker the Elder first came to me when I had a 10 yo mixed breed female. No problems ever with fighting. Barker the Younger joined BTE when the mixed breed died. Nearly 11 years with no problems. The only arguments (quickly settled without human intervention) were over food when BTE objected to BTY messing with her food. Food was never left down when I left. Food spats were quick and easily settled. It was the point BTY knew she shouldn't cross. One vet's office made a mistake of trying to feed them together and that was the only incident requiring care - two-three stitches was all.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Is this peculiar to GSDs, or do bitches of other breeds tend toward the same behavior?


No, it's overall. There are some breeds that it's particularly bad - three I've noticed are Rotties, Malamutes, and Akitas. Same issue with male-male pairs for many of the same breeds. And it's certainly not always true for dogs in general or even those breeds - loads of female pairs get along great, but your best bet of compatibility is always an opposite sex pair.

In the tragedy we suffered it was an opposite sex pairing but in our case I think it was a prey driven behavior - seeing the small dog as a toy or something. And that's another thing big dog/small dog combo owners need to look out for.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:Is this peculiar to GSDs, or do bitches of other breeds tend toward the same behavior?


I don't know if it's 'peculiar to GSDs' but it's considerably less prevalent in some breeds. A friend has bred IWs for decades & has never had aggression problem with her bitches, whether spayed or intact, regardless of whether she also has intact males at the same time.

She did have a male that did poorly with other males regardless of whether they were intact or neutered. He was intact for yrs, though never bred, & then neutered, which also made no difference. (She didn't breed any of the males she kept)

Sam, my GSD retired breeder, doesn't seem to have the 'bitch thing' going. She had a fight with Spanky, the American Bulldog spayed bitch, over a yr ago over food. I've fed them differently (& separately) since that time with no recurrences.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

IW? 

I am sorry about the Westie. My girls have all inherited the Green Monster from their dam. They are more likely to fight when I am there, and they fight over my attention. One day I got home and two bitches were looking over the baby gate at me, Heidi and Jenna were loose together. They were fine, but when I came in Jenna jumped Heidi. I pulled them apart without injury, but it could have been nasty. 

It is right for your wife to worry about the chi. What is important is that when you are not supervising, they are crated from now on. But here is the question, isn't it possible for the shepherd to kill the chi pretty much instantaneously? 

I feel for the family. I have multiple bitches, but each has their own kennel, their own crate, food is given in the crates, and only one at a time is left loose in the house or yard. Only the puppies are allowed to run together, and sometimes an adult with them. 

I just do not like mopping them up. I do not like trying to separate them. My heart races, and I cannot breathe and it is extremely difficult. However, some of them seem to tolerate some others very well while others HATE each other. Arwen hates Jenna, Jenna pretty much goads Arwen. Jenna and Babsy seem amiable. Jenna seems rather good with Heidi. Tori is not good with any of them BUT Arwen. It is weird. But I do not trust any well enough to leave them alone together. 

I hate the idea of losing your shepherd. But I really feel that the chi is at risk, If it was a bigger hardier dog, it might take a sustained attack to kill it. I doubt if you would be able to reach it before it was dispatched if that is what the shepherd wants to do. Sorry, that is just an opinion. I do not think your child is at risk at all. If you are not able to keep the two separated, then I think you need to consider rehoming the shepherd. 

That said, it isn't all that hard to keep them apart. One is out while the other is crated, there is always a baby gate between them, etc.

Your girl did what girls do. She may not have even started it. I am sorry this happened.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

My Weim breeder friend said that Male-Male aggression is much worse in the Weims, than Female-female.

Val


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> IW?


Irish Wolfhound


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: Is this peculiar to GSDs, or do bitches of other breeds tend toward the same behavior?
> ...


Is this male/male or female/female agression limited to two or more dogs living together in one household, or can there be problems when two females meet?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

It can be both - or either, or neither. I have had more problems with males who wouldn't tolerate any other males, in their house or out of it, than females actually, but that's just my personal experience. Also do just want to say for balance that I've had a tiny handful of female foster dogs who had issues with other females and not many more males who had issues with males. The vast majority, of both GSDs and in general, have been fine. I have 2 females and 2 males right now and routinely have foster dogs of either genders without issue, or at least without any gender related issue (sometimes you get dogs who just don't get along or have bad chemistry, irrespective of gender). So it really all depends.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MaryWIs this male/male or female/female agression limited to two or more dogs living together in one household, or can there be problems when two females meet?


No, it's not limited. And it's not a given, either ... but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

Right now I have 3 bitches in my pack - Sasha, Winnie and Kaynya. Kaynya is intact - the other two are spayed. They are loose together in the yard and in the house - as long as I am HOME. When I go out Sasha goes in her crate (she likes to chew things) and Winnie and Kaynya have x-pens.


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## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: Is this peculiar to GSDs, or do bitches of other breeds tend toward the same behavior?
> ...


Add Australian Cattle Dog bitches to that list, their fights can be legendary. I am fortunate to have never experienced them, but I have heard some bad stories. I currently have a spayed female GSD (Lexi - 2 yrs old), a spayed female ACD (Ivy - 9 months old) that are mine and a spayed female foster ACD puppy that is only 3 months old. The foster, Katy is going to be **** on wheels and will probably do best with a male in the future.









My parents have 2 Siberian Huskies, a male & a female, both fixed and they get into some pretty good fights sometimes.

Kristina


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## RDalton (Sep 7, 2005)

Hi All,

Many thanks for all yor replies, my dog is back home now and all is well, took her for a long walk yesterday, great to have her back,


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## domypart (May 10, 2009)

Normally in matters like this one my wife wins. If that turns out to be true in this case please check out my post maybe somehow it will help you.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...708#Post1069997


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What a beautiful dog. I am glad she is back home.


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