# Six-year-old Cincinnati girl mauled by pit bulls.



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Six-year-old girl named Zainabou Drame was mauled so badly by two pit bulls, that her family didn't even recognize her.

McElrath witnessed the attack, grabbed a baseball bat and try to beat the dogs off the little girl. His 20 pound dog also attacked the attacking pit bulls. When police arrived, the police shot the two pit bulls after the pit bulls charged police officers.

Family: Girl attacked by dogs needs major facial reconstruction | Local News - WLWT Home

Mom beat pit bulls with bat to save daughter

Pit bulls killed by officers after mauling young girl - Cincinnati Animal Advocacy | Examiner.com

Six-year-old Girl Attacked by Pit Bulls in Westwood

Ohio girl, 6, critical after mauling by dogs - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV

6-year-old mauled by dogs - Local 12 WKRC-TV Cincinnati - Top Stories

I don't think all pit bulls are dangerous. Many are quite docile, friendly and loving. Unfortunately they are often bred and trained to be aggressive, violent, fighters and killers. Unfortunately there is a psychotic and criminal element of human society that uses dogs this way. People that fight dogs, drug dealers and other criminals often mistreat dogs to make dogs more dangerous. 

It's not so much that pit bulls are inherently vicious; as is that some bad people encourage pit bulls and other dogs to be vicious.

Often when dogs are vicious, it often is because their owners are criminals or otherwise psychotic. There often is a connection to crime. Most often, drug crime.




> A man living at the home with the dogs, Zontae Irby, was arrested and *was facing weapon and drug charges*. He is the brother of Dierres Lee, who was *sentenced to 12 years in prison in April for killing a La Salle student during a drug deal*.
> 
> Valores White, 41, was also arrested and *charged with permitting drug abuse*, according to the Hamilton County Sheriff's office.


Source
Family: Girl attacked by dogs needs major facial reconstruction | Local News - WLWT Home


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Correction: It was "Tanina Drame" that tried to beat dogs off little girl with a baseball bat.

Sorry not able to edit to correct the original post.

From what I know about this case, I support the police actions in this case.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> 24-year-old Zontae Irby owns the dogs and was arrested early Thursday morning. Police searched Irby's home and *charged him with weapons under disability, drug abuse and drug trafficking*. Charges are pending in relation to the dog attack, Cincinnati Police say.


Source and full story.

Dog owner jailed after pit bulls attack 6 year-old girl - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Aren't pit bulls banned in Cincinnati? Or was that repealed?

Just having read the headlines, it sounds like the police did what they needed to do. And dogs that maul children need to be put down. Shot by cops, removes some the the insanity where the nutters will try to rescue and rehabilitate the dogs. Send the head off and test for rabies. Cheaper than having some kind of a hearing to determine whether or not the dog is ordered euthanized. 

See, this ticks me off. Some little kid is now disfigured, if she makes it. And that is the worst thing. But, it is also bad for other dog owners. When people don't bother to train and manage their dog, communities find they must enact laws that can impact all of us, because BSL is vilified so much that we cannot pass laws requiring people of the breeds with the worst record, it will be all of us. And if they do enact BSL, when choosing the breeds, they will lump our dogs with the pits and the rotties, maybe not to eliminate them, but to require that owners have specific fencing, muzzles, leashes, insurance and what have you.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

selzer said:


> Aren't pit bulls banned in Cincinnati? Or was that repealed?
> 
> Just having read the headlines, it sounds like the police did what they needed to do. And dogs that maul children need to be put down. Shot by cops, removes some the the insanity where the nutters will try to rescue and rehabilitate the dogs. Send the head off and test for rabies. Cheaper than having some kind of a hearing to determine whether or not the dog is ordered euthanized.
> 
> See, this ticks me off. Some little kid is now disfigured, if she makes it. And that is the worst thing. But, it is also bad for other dog owners. When people don't bother to train and manage their dog, communities find they must enact laws that can impact all of us, because BSL is vilified so much that we cannot pass laws requiring people of the breeds with the worst record, it will be all of us. And if they do enact BSL, when choosing the breeds, they will lump our dogs with the pits and the rotties, maybe not to eliminate them, but to require that owners have specific fencing, muzzles, leashes, insurance and what have you.


Cincinnati had a breed ban against pit bulls about two years ago, but the law was repealed. Some of the surrounding communities still have pit bull bans.

Morally I am against breed bans. Though regrettably pit bulls are a problem, but I feel the problem is deeper than just the breed itself. It is the people that breed and raise and train dogs to be vicious. It is people that ignorantly and recklessly own dogs that can be dangerous. 

Unfortunately many of the people that are attracted to the pit bull breed have the wrong motives and/or are reckless and too incompetent to own a dog, especially a dog that can be potentially dangerous.

Unfortunately there are many strays and many people let their dogs run loose. Unfortunately many dogs are not properly trained or properly socialized. So there are many timebombs and accidents waiting to happen.

Unfortunately the gangster/hoodlum type of people are attracted to the pit bull breed. Gangsters/hoodlums are cowards that fearfully band together and often have illegal weapons and/or pit bulls for defense, intimidation and bling. Pit bulls are often used to protect marijuana grow operations, drug dealer and fencing stashes, etc.

I was at a dog park just outside of the greater Cincinnati area, when a couple of hoodlums pulled up and started to train their pit bulls to attack humans between a dog park and a playground. It was a crude gangster version of Schutzhund. I called police. Even though the dogs were off leash right next to a playground and the owners were training them to attack people; the police officers only gave them a warning.

I think part of the blame for the dog violence should go to authorities. Many of the laws and enforcement often is nonsensical. My GSD service dog is often treated like a threat, yet vicious dogs are often allowed to roam the street, and gangs training dogs to be vicious are treated with kid gloves. Authorities need to better, more fairly and more reasonably prioritize their authority. 

I got into it with the Hamilton County dog Warden, for bigotedly stereotyping GSDs as vicious dogs, yet allowing vicious dogs to roam the streets, and ignoring gangster types that fight dogs, and breed and train dogs to be vicious.

Part of the problem is much of the authority is corrupt, incompetent, prejudice and derelict. Often people that report crimes are threatened, harassed and slandered by authorities; yet criminals are often given a free pass. Greater Cincinnati and Hamilton County needs to clean house. Law enforcement, prosecutors, judges, etc. are often derelict of their duty, are often defiant of the law, often are incompetent, etc.

Greater Cincinnati and Hamilton County has a bad problem with illicit drugs, prostitution, and other criminal gang activity. 



> The dogs' owner, Zontae Irby, is in jail on *drug and weapons charges. He is also charged with receiving stolen property.*


Source
Cruiser cam from Westwood pit bull attack - Local 12 WKRC-TV Cincinnati - Top Stories

Police release chilling 911 calls after pit bull attack - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

selzer wrote:
Just having read the headlines, it sounds like the police did what they needed to do. And dogs that maul children need to be put down. Shot by cops, removes some the the insanity where the nutters will try to rescue and rehabilitate the dogs. Send the head off and test for rabies. Cheaper than having some kind of a hearing to determine whether or not the dog is ordered euthanized. 


Absolutely.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone...can you give specific examples of how you are vilified and how your life is negatively impacted by the authorities while at the same time allowing those with the actual vicious dogs to roam?

Sorry, when people start to stereotype, even though they expect majority agreement about that stereotype, I have a hard time believing a lot of what they say. Especially when most of your stories are extremely vague and the one about the crazy vicious dogs by the playground...if that actually happened the way you described, you need to get a camera phone and start lawsuits against your police department.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

martemchik said:


> DogGone...can you give specific examples of how you are vilified and how your life is negatively impacted by the authorities while at the same time allowing those with the actual vicious dogs to roam?
> 
> Sorry, when people start to stereotype, even though they expect majority agreement about that stereotype, I have a hard time believing a lot of what they say. Especially when most of your stories are extremely vague and the one about the crazy vicious dogs by the playground...if that actually happened the way you described, you need to get a camera phone and start lawsuits against your police department.


Your unfounded personal attacks, are slanderous, dishonest, bigoted, hateful and ignorant.

My factual accounts are not stereotypes. What makes you think I haven't documented and/or taken legal actions? The problem with our government is systemic. It is very difficult for complaints against corrupt authorities to take hold. They often are legally exempt and/or have a culture of corruption (blue code of silence, etc.) that makes them untouchable (above the law). They often discriminate, falsify evidence/reports, scapegoat/frame, bully, etc. Whistleblowers like me often face reprisals.

Have documented authorities hypocritically flaunting the law.
Police, Law Enforcement, Prosecutors, Judges, Attorneys, Violate Ohio Front License Plate Law? - YouTube

I captured an another assault on video, yet again no charges filed.
Mexicans or otherwise Hispanic, Street Fight In Ohio 5-18-2014 - YouTube

Hotel captured on video discriminating against the disabled with a service dog.
Capri Hotel Discrimination Of Disabled with Service Dog - YouTube

BMV (Ohio state Highway Patrol) on video discriminating and obstructing justice.
BMV (Ohio Highway Patrol) Discriminates Against The Disabled - YouTube

I captured an another assault on video, yet again no charges filed.
Fight At Hotel 4-22-2014 - YouTube

Reported probable drug paraphernalia, but police didn't even respond.
Suspected drug paraphernalia - YouTube

Reported suspected former marijuana grow, police haven't responded
MOVI0004 - YouTube

Have police and other government authorities on record falsifying records, obstructing justice, etc...
Sharonville Police & City Council Falsifying Records - YouTube

Have documented police and other government authorities discriminating, obstructing justice, etc.
http://youtu.be/xhZLk1Z63nM

I captured and turned in what seemed to be a "pit bull" to authorities that seemingly had eluded authorities for quite some time.
(The pit bull had a bunch of bumps on its skin. I suspect that the dog might have been used as a bait dog in dog fighting. The bumps may have been teeth marks and infections from dogfighting.)
Video of a stray pit bull I found - YouTube

Several of my friends at the dog park witnessed the thugs training two pit bulls off leash to fight humans near the dog park, right next to a playground. My friends also witnessed me calling police, talking to police and that the police only gave a warning. If I recall correctly I e-mailed the police department and Park Department about the incident. There were other signs of gang activity in the area. IE spray painting/tagging seeming gang signs to park property.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well late to the party but is the fact that a lot of Pitt bulls (former owner) tend to be owned by clueless irresponsible morons in debate??


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love my dogs.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Trying to stop the clueless and the lame si pretty much impossible so far?? What about a surtax for advertising Pitt Bulls for sale?? Anywhere on Craigslist you can find Pitt Bulls for ...free, $40 bucks and
$1800.00 dollars!! Razors Edge and they were actually English Bull Dogs/APBT mixes?? 

So madness abounds, just a thought.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Girl attacked by dogs in medically induced coma - Local 12 WKRC-TV Cincinnati - Top Stories

I don't think all pit bulls or all pit bull owners are bad; but I think there are a lot of bad pit bulls out there, because there is a lot of bad people that breed them to be vicious, train them to be vicious, and many people are too ignorant and too irresponsible to own and/or care for pit bulls.

Regretfully often the type of people that own pit bulls are irresponsible, ignorant and/or criminal thugs; that should not own or possess pit bulls.

I think rather than making out right breed laws against pit bulls; that convicted felons, offenders with convictions of violent crimes, offenders with convictions of drug abuse, drug dealing, theft, robbery, or similar crimes should be restricted from owning or possessing or having immediate access to pit bulls or other large bread dogs. I think judges, probation boards and parole boards should restrict pit bulls and other large bread dogs from violent criminals, convicted gangsters, drug-related convicts, fences, thieves, robbers, etc.

The alleged owner "Zontae Irby" has a long criminal record with many offenses. I list below many of the charges. Not all of them are convictions.

9/25/2009
RECEIVING STOLEN PROPERTY 2913-51A ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

8/26/2010
LICENSE PLATES 503-51 CMCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

10/6/2011
OBSTRUCT OFFICIAL BUSINESS M2 2921-31 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

10/14/2011
POSSESSION OF DRUGS 2925-11 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

10/15/2011
DRIVING UNDER FRA SUSPENSION 4510-16 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

3/5/2013
SELL CIGARETTES NOT BEAR STAMP 
ILLEG DISTRIB TABACCO TO MINOR
POSS ILLEG DRUG PARAPHENALIA 2925-14 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts


3/13/2013
ATTEMPT(TRAFFICKING IN MARIHUANA 2925-03A2) REDUCED 2923-02 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts


11/20/2013
DRIVING UNDER SUSPENSION/VIOLATON RESTRICTION 4510-11 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

3/20/2014
DRIVING UNDER FRA SUSPENSION 4510-16 ORCN
LICENSE PLATES 503-51 CMCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

Now charged with.

6/5/2014
HAVING WEAPONS WHILE UNDER DISABILTY 2923-13 ORCN
TRAFFICKING IN DRUGS 2925-03 ORCN
POSSESSION OF DRUGS 2925-11 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

6/6/2014
RECEIVING STOLEN PROPERTY 2913-51 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

A few days before the attack his mother was charged with building code violations. After the attack his mother was charged with permitting drug abuse. Perhaps the wayward son is dragging his mother down with him.

5/28/2014
BUILDING CODE VIOLATION - FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH ORDERS 1101-71 CMCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

6/5/2014
PERMITTING DRUG ABUSE 2925-13 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

You don't have to be a criminal to be an irresponsible pet owner! But by and large yeah, that is pretty much how it goes!


----------



## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

And conversely, you could have a criminal record and be a responsible dog owner. Humans and other animals are complex and blanket statements are not accurate nor fair.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Juliem24 said:


> And conversely, you could have a criminal record and be a responsible dog owner. Humans and other animals are complex and blanket statements are not accurate nor fair.











Did not see that one coming!


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> You don't have to be a criminal to be an irresponsible pet owner! But by and large yeah, that is pretty much how it goes!


No doubt.

I don't think my proposal would stop dog attacks on people, but I think it would reduce the problem. I think if severe criminals and the severely criminally insane were prevented from owning large breed dogs, that there would be a significant reduction of dog attacks on people.

I should have included criminally insane in my original post. I know of many habitually violent people that don't get convictions because they plead insanity.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Juliem24 said:


> And conversely, you could have a criminal record and be a responsible dog owner. Humans and other animals are complex and blanket statements are not accurate nor fair.


Who was making a blanket statement?

Nowadays many service dogs are trained by convicts in prison. Supposedly the inmates are carefully screened before they can participate in the program; as to reduce the chance that the dogs will be abused. Being part of the program is a privilege for inmates, not a right. 

If you were a parent, would you hire a convicted child molester to babysit?

If you were a banker; would you hire a bank robber to be a teller?


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

In a matter of speaking, has greater Cincinnati area police policy become open hunting of "pit bulls"?

Since Cincinnati area police shot and killed the two pit bulls that were attacking the six-year-old girl; police have shot two other "pit bulls". In less than a week, allegedly 4 pit bulls have been shot by police in the Cincinnati area.

When police shot the two "pit bulls" that was attacking the young girl; I feel that the police were acting appropriately and heroically.

I can't find an online news article about it, but shortly after the two "pit bulls" were shot a couple of men got in a fight in another location in the greater Cincinnati area. A "pit bull" attacked one of the men that were fighting. The police responding to the fight, shot the "pit bull". I suspect that the police were acting appropriately and heroically.

The third case is a little bit more fuzzy to me. A "pit bull" was wandering the street. Police tried to corral the dog, during which they used a stun gun on the dog twice. The dog responded by lunging at police, police responded by shooting the dog.

While I'm glad to see police taking the problem of wandering "pit bulls" seriously; and I'm glad to see that something is being done about the problem. Perhaps agencies like the SPCA and animal control would be a more appropriate agencies to round up "pit bulls" and strays wandering the streets? I think those agencies might be better at rounding up dogs wandering the streets, then police. I think the police had good intentions, but fear that they may have antagonized, (escalated) the situation, in their pursuit and use of stun gun on the "pit bull". If you scare a dog chasing it, then inflict pain with a stun gun; there's a good chance that is going to antagonize and escalate the problem and the dog will respond aggressively.

Without knowing the specifics, I'm not sure whether or not to support or criticize the police on this most recent incident that police shot a "pit bull".

Pit bull shot, killed by police

"Pit bull" is somewhat confusing and dubious terminology that is a loose vague definition that is often subject of wide interpretation and results in many arguments. If I recall correctly, in Ohio essentially three breeds are considered "pit bull". Authorities and the media often labels any of those breeds, or a mix of any of those breeds or anything that looks and acts similar to be a "pit bull".

I think agencies like the SPCA and animal control are probably better equipped, better trained and more experienced, thus are probably more appropriate than regular police to round up the dogs wandering the streets. However the reality is those agencies are probably too small and spread too thin; so regular police end up filling the gaps.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

But as strict as prisons are, and with as little privacy as they have in jail, don't you think that the program is likely very strict and closely monitored? 

I don't think going to prison automatically makes someone a bad person, from what I have seen of the programs in prison where inmates train dogs it looks like a very positive experience for the dogs and inmates.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lol...when did youtube become a credible source?

If you want to discuss how to take away X from whoever YOU decide shouldn't own one, that's cool. But that's not how our government works.

In addition...most of that stuff is basically unenforceable unless the dog does something stupid, and at the end of the day, a very small percentage of dogs (including pits) do something stupid. No one would stand for police officers stopping every single person that they see walking one down the street and asking them about their criminal history. 99/100 times, they'll be asking perfectly good, law abiding citizens...and no one would agree to that.

*"Your unfounded personal attacks, are slanderous, dishonest, bigoted, hateful and ignorant."*

Nothing I said was anything like that. You should look up what some of those words mean, because again, just writing them pretty much discredits anything and everything else you've written.

You've been the one using bigoted, hateful and ignorant words. Like gangster, hoodlum, coward, thug. Basically saying criminals or "one type of person" is attracted to the breed. 

This discussion is basically..."Take away pits from people that I believe to be criminals, living in X part of town, looking like Y." That's the hateful part. You probably wouldn't care one bit about the suburban family owning a pittie, they're "responsible." And the moment the law starts to extend to other dangerous breeds (such as the one you own) you'll be 100% against it...as at that point it becomes discriminatory. But it's very "American" to not care about discriminatory laws until they start to discriminate against you.

I'm still waiting for YOUR experience with police officers and how they've allowed pitbulls to run around attacking kids at a playground, but questioned you about your GSD.

I live in a city where we have breed specific laws against pits and rotts. Shorter leashes/taller fences, stuff like that. I've seen plenty of people walking pits on longer leashes. There's one in my neighborhood that does it all the time, a 6ft leash and not a 4ft!!! Believe that law breaker! The city's K9 and handler live in my neighborhood...he's never done anything to them. Just like no police officer has ever had anything but good things to say about my shepherds.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DogGone said:


> Who was making a blanket statement?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To continue your logic, I wouldn't hire a dog abuser to train my dog. People are in jail for a myriad of reasons. I see nothing wrong with these programs. Animals bring out the best in people. 


What if someone is there for using drugs? Did yu know that many people are in jail for crimes that have to do with using drugs, meaning, they do illegal things to get money for drugs. You have a problem with those too?



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Like I said, it's this is part of the reason I think that convicted criminals with drug offenses, etc. should not be allowed to own pit bulls or other large dogs. 



> *Police: Pit bulls in attack that injured girl were guarding criminal operation*
> 
> Cincinnati police said two people were using the pit bulls to guard a "criminal operation"


Police: Pit bulls in attack that injured Zainabou Drame were guarding criminal operation - Story

Sure there is always some exceptions, but for the most part I think there are many criminals and criminally insane that should not be allowed to own pit bulls and other large breeds.

Analogy. By default I think violent criminals, the criminally insane, convicted felons should be barred from owning or possessing firearms. It doesn't mean that I'm against making exceptions. David Marshall Williams was a repentant criminal that designed and manufactured machine guns.

I'm not against service dog programs in prisons; as long as prisoners are properly screened/selected and monitored. If they have reasonably good behavior in prison, I feel that they should be allowed to own and work with large dogs after leaving prison as long they stay on the right side of the law. There are some circumstances that I think probation, parole and judges should allow exceptions.

Dog fighting operations often have connections with illicit drug operations. Gangsters often breed and train dogs to be vicious to fight or guard their life or illegal stash.



martemchik said:


> when did youtube become a credible source?......


You are in no position to be questioning YouTube's credibility. lol

You're too busy judging the spec of sawdust in your neighbors eye, but ignoring the plank in your own.

Again you're taking dishonestly taking words out of context to make unfounded personal attacks, with your hateful ignorant diatribes.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I think that's a bad idea. I'd be OK with special licensing, permits, mandatory training but to let your past decide your future sounds unfair. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> You are in no position to be questioning YouTube's credibility. lol
> 
> You're too busy judging the spec of sawdust in your neighbors eye, but ignoring the plank in your own.
> 
> Again you're taking dishonestly taking words out of context to make unfounded personal attacks, with your hateful ignorant diatribes.


Did you look up bigoted and decide to leave it out of your sentence this time around?

I didn't attack you, I just wanted some actual evidence of the stories you've told. Sorry, but they just sound completely ridiculous. The cops decided to stop a random person walking a perfectly well behaved GSD? But didn't do anything when people allowed off-leash pitbulls to harass kids on a playground? There's not a single journalist that decided to pick this story up anywhere?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Sure there is always some exceptions, but for the most part I think there are many criminals and criminally insane that should not be allowed to own pit bulls and other large breeds.
> 
> Analogy. By default I think violent criminals, the criminally insane, convicted felons should be barred from owning or possessing firearms. It doesn't mean that I'm against making exceptions. David Marshall Williams was a repentant criminal that designed and manufactured machine guns.


Who would "approve" these exceptions? What would be the criteria for the exceptions? Explain your idea, rather than just writing things that sound good. I'm truly interested. What would happen the first time one of your exceptions fails and their dog attacks someone? Who would be held responsible for "allowing" this exception?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Dog fighting operations often have connections with illicit drug operations. Gangsters often breed and train dogs to be vicious to fight or guard their life or illegal stash.


What is your experience with gangsters and illicit drug operations? Have you met a lot of people that do this? It's a lot of work to train a vicious dog to fight or guard people...especially a breed of dog not known for human aggression and known for dog aggression.


----------



## Baileysowner (Jun 15, 2013)

Very terrible+,, im from the cinci area

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm often a critic of government officials, but here's a couple of government officials that I agree with at least on this issue.



> Council Member Charlie Winburn proposed that a code be written to strengthen the laws against drug dealers and gang members who use their dogs for violence.
> 
> Vice-Chair of the Committee Kevin Flynn said he was on board with the idea, adding that having a dog for criminal purposes should have the same penalty as having a gun.
> 
> "When you're using a pit bull in the commission of another crime, it is using deadly force," he said.


Council considers new legislation after dog attack last week - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV

But I also think there should be new laws that restrict some convicts from owning/possessing "pit bull" and other large protective dogs. As they are potential deadly weapons.



martemchik said:


> It's a lot of work to train a vicious dog to fight or guard people...especially a breed of dog not known for human aggression and known for dog aggression.


Get a clue. 

Almost any dog can be fundamentally trained to be a vicious guard dog. It doesn't take hardly any knowledge to turn a dog into a "junkyard dog". Irish setters, golden retrievers, Labrador retrievers, Dalmatians, have all been turned into "junkyard" dogs by unscrupulous people. It comes much easier in a fighting breed like a pit bull.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> In addition to that, Local 12 also learned about two more pit bull attacks over the weekend. Friday night Cincinnati Police responded to a street fight on West Liberty where *a man was using his pit bull to attack other people*. When police arrived they shot and killed the dog. Then again Sunday police shot and killed a pit bull that was running toward children playing on Montana. They tased the dog first and when it went after the officers they shot and killed that one too.
> 
> *That's four dead pit bulls in this city in less than a week.*


Source and full story.

Update on vicious dog attack: Council members considering pit bull laws - Local 12 WKRC-TV Cincinnati - Top Stories

I don't want the law says, but as far as I am concerned using a dog like a pit bull for an unjust attack; is an assault with a deadly weapon. As far as I'm concerned convicted felons, people convicted of violent crimes, and the criminally insane by default should not possess large attack dogs like pit bulls.


----------



## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

I agree that any large dog can be a "menace". American Bull Terrior is automatically judged as violent. Oh and Pit Bull is Generic wording. Face it and know we can only do so much. adopting a "high risk" breed should be allowed for the kind and caring and tolerant and willing to teach correct behaviors. If your dog loves you they all want to defend you. Not just attack every person place or thing.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

This was a separate pit bull attack in Cincinnati, from the one that mauled the six-year-old girl. 



> According to court documents, Galen was arguing with others near his home on the 4000 block of West Liberty Street Saturday when he "let his dog out of the house in an effort to scare and cause alarm to others."
> 
> The dog then bit someone in the hand and caused alarm in the community, records indicate.
> 
> When police arrived on scene, they shot and killed the dog.


Source and full story
Man faces charges after letting 'vicious' dog loose

Charges against Angel Galen.

6/7/2014
DANGEROUS DOG TO BE PROP CONFINED OR LEASHED 
INDUCING PANIC 2917-31 ORCN
Tracy Winkler - Clerk of Courts

I don't know if it is allowable under current law, but feel he should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, if he without good cause; deliberately and intentionally released his "pit bull" to intimidate and or attack.

If police haven't already done so, I feel that Angel Galen's residence and property should be thoroughly searched for other illegal activity. IE illicit drugs, illegal weapons, criminal tools, stolen property, etc. I also think his blood and or urine should be tested for alcohol and drugs. I think if someone uses an aggressive dog to menace or attack; that it should be probable cause to search the offenders residence, property and body.

I feel that anyone that unjustly threatens other people with a pit bull or other potentially deadly animal; should be charged with menacing and or brandishing.


In this case I feel the police were justified and heroic for shooting the dog.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So basically you want to set a precedent that if I feel threatened, I wouldn’t be allowed to use my dog to defend me even though he’s being trained to do so? There goes everyone’s hopeful dreams of having personal protection dogs…


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

martemchik said:


> So basically you want to set a precedent that if I feel threatened, I wouldn’t be allowed to use my dog to defend me even though he’s being trained to do so? There goes everyone’s hopeful dreams of having personal protection dogs…


Again you are taking my words out of context to make unfounded personal attacks.

With your chronic history of slander and unfounded personal attacks; I don't think you should have a protection dog that can be used as a deadly weapon in an unjust attack.

I think self-defense is okay as long as it is well-founded (ethical, just, reasonable and legitimate).

I don't think sociopaths should have deadly weapons.



DogGone said:


> I don't know if it is allowable under current law, but feel he should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, if he *without good cause*; deliberately and intentionally released his "pit bull" to intimidate and or attack.
> 
> I feel that anyone that *unjustly* threatens other people with a pit bull or other potentially deadly animal; should be charged with menacing and or brandishing.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Again you are taking my words out of context to make unfounded personal attacks.
> 
> With your chronic history of slander and unfounded personal attacks; I don't think you should have a protection dog that can be used as a deadly weapon in an unjust attack.
> 
> ...


Lol...my chronic history of slander and personal attacks? I haven't done anything.

What's an unjust attack? Who's opinion are we using to call an attack "unjust"? Basically...you just said that I shouldn't have a protection dog based off of 4 posts on an internet thread. Who do you think should be allowed to have a personal protection dog? Are you going to look at every single person that might have one and go through a testing process to figure out who you would "allow" to have one?

I'm just trying to get more information, get this to be more objective than subjective. Our laws have to be objective, very little gray area. When you leave gray area, you leave it open to be challenged and more than likely overturned. When you rely on people's opinions of a situation, or a person, you're bringing in a lifetime of bias into the situation which isn't fair for anyone when you're talking about crime and punishment.

It's not out of context...the words you bolded are extremely subjective. What's just to you, might not be to me. What's "good cause?" If someone is on my property, and I ask them to leave, and they don't...is that good cause? If someone parks themselves on my lawn in protest, but they aren't "threatening" me in any way, is that good cause to use my dog to get them off my lawn?

Your idea is good in theory, its just got TONS of holes. It's one of those "in a perfect world" ideas where everyone would agree 100% on every situation. But in reality, most cases are 51/49.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

> If police haven't already done so, I feel that Angel Galen's residence and property should be thoroughly searched for other illegal activity. IE illicit drugs, illegal weapons, criminal tools, stolen property, etc. I also think his blood and or urine should be tested for alcohol and drugs. I think if someone uses an aggressive dog to menace or attack; that it should be probable cause to search the offenders residence, property and body.


Why? I don't agree with that at all. Just because some owners might be involved with those things doesn't mean that somebody's dog getting loose is evidence of drug activity and a green light to invade their privacy, I get that you are passionate about this but I just can't agree with a lot of what you say.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Sarah~ said:


> Why? I don't agree with that at all. Just because some owners might be involved with those things doesn't mean that somebody's dog getting loose is evidence of drug activity and a green light to invade their privacy, I get that you are passionate about this but I just can't agree with a lot of what you say.


Angel Galen's dog had not simply gotten loose. Don't you know English? Have no reading comprehension? You seem trigger happy and full of rage.

Angel Galen allegedly was fighting, went back into his house and set his dog loose and sicced it on people.

A 24-year-old guy allegedly using a pit bull to attack a 57-year-old man.


> The incident report states *Galen directed his pit bull to attack a 57-year-old man, who was bitten in the hand*.


Man charged after letting 'vicious' pit bull loose
There is a huge difference between a dog getting loose, and a dog that is deliberately used as a weapon.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The dog is a terrible weapon...all it did was bite someone in the hand. Just more proof that it's a terrible guard or attack dog. Dogs that attack extremities are not sure of themselves, they know what they "should" do, but they don't really want to.

I'm still looking for the difference between what this guy did, and what say I would do if I got in an argument with someone and felt my life threatened...where are you drawing the line of what's okay and what isn't? Why is it wrong for him to use his dog to protect himself? BTW...none of your articles said anything about what the argument was about, what kind of threats might've been involved, or what could've caused the guy to do this.

You should really stop attacking people that are just pointing other things out and stating their own opinion. Just because they don't agree with everything you say doesn't mean they are the things you've said. No one is attacking you, people are just pointing out how incorrect some of your statements are and how they don't agree with certain parts of your argument...you posted a thread on the internet...you're not just going to get a bunch of people to agree with you, there will be those that are on the other side.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

DogGone said:


> Angel Galen's dog had not simply gotten loose. Don't you know English? Have no reading comprehension? You seem trigger happy and full of rage.
> 
> Angel Galen allegedly was fighting, went back into his house and set his dog loose and sicced it on people.
> 
> ...


I thought I was being very polite, I'd appreciate it if you were the same to me since all I did was disagree with you. And my mistake, I should not have said 'a dog getting loose'. I still do not agree that the man should have had his home and his person searched for drugs unless the fight that led to the dog being sent to attack was over drugs.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

martemchik I don't think people like you should own a pit bull, or any other large dog that could be used as a weapon. You chronically take things out of context to make unfounded personal attacks, slander and lie. You chronically go on hateful ignorant rages. I don't think you're competent. You seem to be quite ignorant about dogs. You seem to be itching for a fight. You seem to be a troll. If this forum had any decent moderation, you would be banned.

If you have even the most basic knowledge of dogs, then you should know that it pit bulls can easily be trained to attack humans. Do you live under a rock? There are often news reports of pit bulls attacking humans.

Dogs like people, are often a product of their environment. How they are treated often has a large influence on their behavior.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> martemchik I don't think people like you should own a pit bull, or any other large dog that could be used as a weapon. You chronically take things out of context to make unfounded personal attacks, slander and lie. You chronically go on hateful ignorant rages. I don't think you're competent. You seem to be quite ignorant about dogs. You seem to be itching for a fight. You seem to be a troll. If this forum had any decent moderation, you would be banned.
> 
> If you have even the most basic knowledge of dogs, then you should know that it pit bulls can easily be trained to attack humans. Do you live under a rock? There are often news reports of pit bulls attacking humans.
> 
> Dogs like people, are often a product of their environment. How they are treated often has a large influence on their behavior.


Lol...

Good thing no one gives you powers to tell people who can and can't own a dog. Also, please point out to me where I slandered and lied about anything. Do you know what slander even means? Can you also point out the time I "personally attacked" you?

The dogs in question aren't trained to attack people. I can guarantee you that. The people you are targeting...don't train their dogs period. They more than likely do not have the means, or the ability to train their dog to attack a person. The fact that the dog bit someone on the hand proves that.

The more you learn about dogs and their behavior, the more you realize they are often the product of their genetics and not their environment. Environment can mold a dog one way or another, but generally a dog will revert to its natural instincts.

You've made the assumption that I have a PP dog...I don't. I have a dog that has started training in protection sports and from that experience I understand what it takes to train a dog to bite a human, its not easy. You've also made the assumption that I would sic my dog on someone...I wouldn't, I'm just stating a completely theoretical situation in which I might. I'll probably never ever run into that kind of a situation, but I was just looking for where YOU draw the line when it comes to what you would consider a situation where it's okay to use a dog to defend yourself.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

DogGone said:


> martemchik I don't think people like you should own a pit bull, or any other large dog that could be used as a weapon. You chronically take things out of context to make unfounded personal attacks, slander and lie. You chronically go on hateful ignorant rages. I don't think you're competent. You seem to be quite ignorant about dogs. You seem to be itching for a fight. You seem to be a troll. If this forum had any decent moderation, you would be banned.
> 
> If you have even the most basic knowledge of dogs, then you should know that it pit bulls can easily be trained to attack humans. Do you live under a rock? There are often news reports of pit bulls attacking humans.
> 
> Dogs like people, are often a product of their environment. How they are treated often has a large influence on their behavior.


A properly bred pit bull is garbage as a guard dog because they were bred SPECIFICALLY not to be human aggressive, so they wouldn't attack people going into the pit to pull their dogs out. And news reports are not gospel they can have errors and even be biased. You are spreading a lot of bad information and making it seem like owning a certain breed is evidence of a crime, as a pit bull owner all of these things make me really angry, but I have a feeling not many will listen to you because you seem really irrational... I think this thread should be closed.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Sarah~ said:


> I thought I was being very polite, I'd appreciate it if you were the same to me since all I did was disagree with you. And my mistake, I should not have said 'a dog getting loose'. I still do not agree that the man should have had his home and his person searched for drugs unless the fight that led to the dog being sent to attack was over drugs.


Hypocrisy. You have been very rude. I would have to lower myself a lot to treat you the same.

We'll have to disagree. I think assault with a deadly weapon is a good grounds to search a person's residence, home, property and person. Whether it be drugs or evidence of other illicit activity motivating/contributing to the violence.

Your arguments make me suspicious that you might have illegal activity like drug abuse or drug dealing to hide


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

How do you report threads from your phone? I really feel this one should be so consider this my 'report' since I can't find the button to do it.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Your arguments make me suspicious that you might have illegal activity like drug abuse or drug dealing to hide


LOL!!!

You can make that deduction from a few internet posts?!?!?


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sarah~ said:


> How do you report threads from your phone? I really feel this one should be so consider this my 'report' since I can't find the button to do it.


Not sure about phone usage, but I agree with you and I'm on it. 

ADMIN


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Sarah~ said:


> A properly bred pit bull is garbage as a guard dog because they were bred SPECIFICALLY not to be human aggressive, so they wouldn't attack people going into the pit to pull their dogs out. And news reports are not gospel they can have errors and even be biased. You are spreading a lot of bad information and making it seem like owning a certain breed is evidence of a crime, as a pit bull owner all of these things make me really angry, but I have a feeling not many will listen to you because you seem really irrational... I think this thread should be closed.


It sounds like you think dogfighting is an admirable, ethical, intellectual and honorable sport.

It hilarious you criticizing questioning the credibility of others. As horrible and as ignorant as the media is, they seem much better than your posts.

Handlers in dog fights often get bit by pit bulls, so don't give me a bunch of malarkey about how well pit bulls are bred not to bite humans. As if it pit bull fighter are reputable dog breeders, trainers and handlers.

You and martemchik seem very irrational. Taking things out of context to make unfounded personal attacks. You two seem to be blinded by hatred and ignorance.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Handlers in dog fights often get bit by pit bulls, so don't give me a bunch of malarkey about how well pit bulls are bred not to bite humans. As if it pit bull fighter are reputable dog breeders, trainers and handlers.


How do you know this about handlers in dog fights?

Anyone breaking up a dog fight risks getting bit...usually the dog doesn't mean to do it, it just happens that your hand or body part ends up somewhere that the other dog is targeting on another dog. I've been bit by a dog in a dog fight...he didn't mean to do it, he didn't know what was happening...just had his mouth open and was in 100% flight mode to try and get away from a different dog.

Those types of bites are different than dogs actually going after humans...its a very tough thing to teach, especially if the dog is off it's own territory. Generally...when a dog has the option to flight, it will take it over fight any day.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

martemchik said:


> How do you know this about handlers in dog fights?


Anyone that has watched a decent documentary on dog fights, knows the dog handlers often get injured.

I know people that have infiltrated and busted dogfighting rings. I have seen much of the evidence that is not readily available to the public. I have seen the connections between dogfighting, to illicit drugs and other criminal activity.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DogGone said:


> Anyone that has watched a decent documentary on dog fights, knows the dog handlers often get injured.
> 
> I know people that have infiltrated and busted dogfighting rings. I have seen much of the evidence that is not readily available to the public. I have seen the connections between dogfighting, to illicit drugs and other criminal activity.


So now we're on to dog fighting...which I can agree with you on. Dogfighting usually is connected to other illegal things.

But owning a pit bull...or previously being a criminal...doesn't mean you're involved in dog fighting or other illegal activity.

So in your suggestion, where you would "ban" criminals from owning pits...how would you do it? That's my question. You can't really tell by looking at someone that they've been to prison at some point in their life. You can't really look at someone and tell what kind of dog owner they are. So how would you enforce that kind of a ban?

I could see making the consequences bigger...so stating that if you're a criminal and your dog does something stupid, you'll be charged with a higher charge than you currently would be today, but that doesn't PREVENT the crime, it just makes a higher penalty for doing it. And I don't think higher penalties ever prevent crimes or people from making stupid decisions. If they're willing to make the decision, the difference between 5 or 10 years in prison isn't their biggest worry.

Your solution is still reactive...and if you were to implement it in an active manner...you'd really be invading people's privacy which would never work.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I kind of agree with doggone, if someone uses his dog to get involved in a fight, that would be an attack with a deadly weapon. 

It sounds like it wasn't much of an attack, and it sucks that the dog paid the price here.

No, I think if you can go into your home to release your dog into a fray, then you could have gone in, locked the door and called the police. 

When we were taught self-defense, it was impressed upon us to do what it takes to get away. Using a dog to intimidate or attack someone isn't ok. Having a dog trained in protection, would be a real deterrent if you were walking down the street to get money from the ATM with your dog. Or to keep burglars out of your home. But to sick them on people that you are arguing with? 

I do not agree that if you are violating some type of crime with a dog, it is sufficient grounds to search your home and personal property for evidence of other criminal activity. If it is the norm for that to happen whenever people are arrested for anything, maybe, I don't know. I think that police should have cause to go into someone's home. And being an idiot with your dog, or getting into a fight doesn't sound like it fits the bill for me.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Locking this as this thread has become a personal rant and an attack on members who haven't done or said anything or deserved the attitude they are getting from the OP.


----------

