# My fault or his?



## ThomasO (Feb 19, 2013)

So the other day i took both my shepherds to the local park, and took them to the large lake there. Both my dogs love swimming so it was a pretty fun. So as im walking along, both my dogs swim out and shake.

I looked up and saw a boxer ahead. My dogs are generally good with other dogs, but can be extremely violant. So i put both their leads on and continued to walk past.

As i pass him i ask him to keep his dog away as my male is very protective over the female and can be very aggressive. He didnt leash his dog, and his boxer started sniffing my female. My male began to snarl and show teeth, so i kindly shouted to the guy to get hold of his dog. He ignored me completely, and then i dont really know who went off first. But my male and his boxer completely went at it, then my female proceeded to get involved.


After it was done, my hand was pouring with blood from trying to intervene, and his dog couldn't walk. This all happened in a matter of 30 seconds. By this time the guy finally comes over. And starts completely screaming in my face. At this point i asked him to try and keep calm ( Which i understand isn't easy in the case of what happened )

Now he is trying to to claim both my dogs are untrained wild animals and to be put down.


I have witness's to back me up but im afraid some of them may not really notice what happened due to the speed it happened.

I completely take responsibility for what my dogs did. But i asked him to keep his dog away, i told him why. He just ignored me and walked away calling his dogs name ( Clearly untrained as it refused to go to its owner )

I nearly lost my fingers trying to save his dog after his arrogance to not get his dog.


So the question remains. Was it my fault or his ?

* If it was my fault, id like to know what perhaps i could of done of done differently "

My dogs have many dogs who they play with in the park locally and are nothing but friendly. Its just my male can sometimes get over protective, and this is why when i see unfamiliar dogs, i leash both of them.


I forgot to add that my dogs are 4 and 2. And have both been in training since they were puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your dogs were leashed at the time? I"m going with his fault.

However, if you know your dogs are aggressive like that then I suggest better training and possibly a muzzle.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I may be wrong, but when you noticed the boxer you immediately leashed your dogs and called out to the other dog owner to keep his dog away that your dog could be aggressive because of the female. Your dogs were leashed his was not, I would consider him at fault. I do hope that his boxer is alright, the dog should not have to suffer because of his not listening to you.


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## BellaLuna (Jan 27, 2013)

In most cases if theres a dog off lead and yours are on the other person is at fault so I'm saying his to and you did however give him a heads up.


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## bigd3077 (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm saying it was his fault. Your dogs were leashed, and you gave warning...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Given what you've told us, he is the one at fault. You leashed your dogs in a effort to avoid a problem and then proceeded to ask him to keep his dog away and explained why. He didn't listen or make any real effort. He's to blame. And if you have witnesses, I would ask for written statements.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

his fault.

hope all dogs (and your hand) are ok!


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## ThomasO (Feb 19, 2013)

Honestly i just want him to drop the case to get my dogs put down. I have offered to pay any vet bills his insurance wont cover ( After all my dogs did the damage this i accept ). Sadly everytime i try to talk to him he says he'll see me in court.

But I'm just hoping perhaps he is going to listen to reason and drop this witch hunt. I'm accepting responsibility for my dogs actions, i feel he should accept it for his actions.


I just wanted to make sure i got some peoples opinions.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

As someone else stated, is there a way that you could get signed statements from the witnesses. People tend to forget for whatever reason and the sooner you could get their statement the better. Good luck.


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## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

Oh yuck Thomas, I really sympathize with you.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

His fault, your dogs were leashed and under control, his wasn't.

If the case does get dropped I would invest in a muzzle, it's not worth a second chance after an attack like this IMO


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

did anyone call animal control? What dog bit your hand? If it's his, he's in trouble. And don't offer to pay vet bills unless it's YOUR fault! Your dogs were leashed and under control


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with Michelle, it was very nice of you to offer to pay his vet bills, but his dog was UNLEASHED, that right there is his fault not yours.

I would seek out some legal counsel just to get some info on how to proceed.

ANd yes, did you or he, call AC? Who's dog bit you?


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## jourdan (Jul 30, 2012)

I see it as his fault. Both of your dogs were leashed and you told him a few time to take hold of his dog. Please if you can get ahold of your witnesses and have them make written signed statements about what happened just incase the idiot doesn't drop charges. Better now when it's fresh vs months later. I really hope he pulls his head out of his butt and realizes he was wrong. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

his dog was unleashed but why didn't you keep walking?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think you should get a lawyer, regardless whose fault it is. Often they blame the stronger dog even if the victim is at fault. It is important to know which dog bit you. 
Now you know what your male is capable of. It would be better not to walk them together or to use a muzzle. You will run Ito dogs running loose in life.
Hope you and the dogs are ok,


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

He can sue you for any reason, or no reason. He can ask that your dogs be euthanized, but suing you and asking for them to be put to sleep doesn't mean he will win. 

If animal control is called and investigates, and find you were at fault, they can request your dogs be euthanized. But that is very, very different from the other owner being able to make you do it all on his own.

If I were you, given that you know your dogs can be "extremely violent" with other dogs and your male is "very protective over the female and can be very aggressive", I would strongly urge you to stop walking your dogs together and/or to stop walking them where you might run into other dogs. And I certainly wouldn't let my dogs off leash, given their temperaments. 

Good luck! I hope his dog recovers and you don't have to defend your dogs legally.
Sheilah


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Where do you live? Where did this happen? Most cities have leash laws. He was in violation of that. Also his dog came up to your dogs. It looks like it is his fault. Having said that, being the evil lawyer that I am, I would introduce your comments on this forum as evidence you knew your dogs were violent and did not take reasonable measures to protect the safety of others, such as a muzzle. Since you were injured, I would tell him that you want him to pay your medical bills and pain and suffering. Because he was most at fault, but for his dog being unleashed the attack and your injury would not have happened. As a lawyer, do not accept responsibility, because it can be seen as an admission of guilt. Just tell him that you offered to help pay the bills out of the goodness of your heart. You don't want to see an animal suffer because the owner cannot pay.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think I would consult with a lawyer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Was this in an off-leash dog park? Sometimes having a leashed dog might create problems. 

I think it was his fault, but I do think that maybe there were things you should have done knowing the situation:

First of all, if I knew my dog was aggressive for whatever reason, I would take the dog places alone, I would only walk the dog alone. It is a lot harder to manage 130# of snarling hair and fangs then it is to manage 75# of the same. With your mind on one dog, you have more opportunity to manage the environment. If you see a loose dog, you have more time to figure out how to proceed. 

Next, people are idiots in a lot of cases. If their dog is not aggressive, they really don't get it. If their dog is friendly with all dogs, then they think the world is a doggy haven and do not understand how bad things can get and quick. Their dog is coming up to yours seems perfectly natural to them. Because they do not have this problem. You know you have a problem so you have to have a plan. You can carry something like citronella or pepper spray to ward off a dog before they get right up to your dog's face. It won't make the owner happy, but then you can tell him that it is a lot cheaper than the vet bill the last dog that ran up on yours incurred. Or you can muzzle your dog to prevent other people's stupidity to get your dog in trouble. If your dog is used to a muzzle, you can slip it on them in milliseconds, so you do not have to take them out on a muzzle, but when you see a loose dog and clueless owner, you can slip it out of your pocket and put it on. 

I would have not told them the dog was aggressive around your female. Too many words. Spend that time muzzling your dog. I would have told him, "GET YOUR DOG!" That should have been enough for him to know that your dog isn't friendly. 

Lastly, don't accept the blame on this. In fact, I would call AC or the police in the area and tell them that while you were walking your dogs you saw the dog and his owner, so you leashed yours. You called to tell the guy to control his dog, and his dog came over where your dog was leashed, there was a fight, and you were injured. Both dogs were injured. In my GSD-Owner opinion, his dog entered your dog's self-space. He did not have control over his dog. His problem. I just hope the court sees it that way.


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## ThomasO (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks for all the great replies. It all happened so fast, but i think it was my female that landed a bite on my hand. I was trying to seperate them and foolishly put my hand into the fray , and from the way it happened, his dog didn't really have a chance to land a solid bite.

Im from the UK, and all parks in the area are " Leashed " Parks, only the forest's allow dogs to be unleashed. Though i think 95% of dogs i see in parks are unleashed.

I will probably invest into a muzzle for the pair of them, while the male is more of an issue, whenever he starts, she tends to follow shortly. The only reason i havn't previously is due to the fact, when people see a dog muzzled they assume the worst. My dogs are far from untrained wild animals, the male just doesn't like dogs getting close to him or the female ( I should of really tried to sort that when i first noticed the problem )


And i offered to pay any uncovered vet bills, purely because i know in today's world, vets aren't cheap. And i would hate to see any animal suffer for what my dogs did, the dog shouldn't suffer because his owner over estimated his control over his dog.


I have contacted a lawyer today, and have a consult on friday. I also have got the phone numbers of 6 eye witnesses so hopefully i can get a signed statement from them as suggested.



*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doesn't the UK have strict laws on "dangerous" dogs? I'm glad you contacted a lawyer. And bless you for your kind heart!


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## ThomasO (Feb 19, 2013)

We have laws yes. But i wouldn't class them as strict. A house 6 doors down from me has 4 pitbull's. Who by law are required to wear a muzzle. Both my dogs have had fights with their dogs. I have called the police many times. Nothing ever gets done.

So now i just ignore all dog act's and just do what i feel is correct in the situation, and try and teach my dogs the correct behaviors.

Luckily both my dogs can handle themselves vs other dogs. I wish the pitbull's down the road were my biggest problem but they arn't. The police where i live just ignore it all. Even seen 2 police officers walk past a dog pooping in the pavement and walking off with its owner. Which is meant to be an instant £500 fine.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

".... nothing but friendly. Its just my male can sometimes get over protective, and this is why when i see unfamiliar dogs, i leash both of them."


*Your words seem to be in conflict! how can a dog be "nothing but friendly" and also be "Overprotective"?*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ThomasO said:


> We have laws yes. But i wouldn't class them as strict. A house 6 doors down from me has 4 pitbull's. Who by law are required to wear a muzzle. Both my dogs have had fights with their dogs. I have called the police many times. Nothing ever gets done.
> 
> So now i just ignore all dog act's and just do what i feel is correct in the situation, and try and teach my dogs the correct behaviors.
> 
> *Luckily both my dogs can handle themselves vs other dogs. *I wish the pitbull's down the road were my biggest problem but they arn't. The police where i live just ignore it all. Even seen 2 police officers walk past a dog pooping in the pavement and walking off with its owner. Which is meant to be an instant £500 fine.


 
Yea, that is great!

Strongly advise you to NOT test that with pitties for your dog's sake! 

Even if it is 2 against 1 again (like th poor boxer).


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## ThomasO (Feb 19, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Yea, that is great!
> 
> Strongly advise you to NOT test that with pitties for your dog's sake!
> 
> Even if it is 2 against 1 again (like th poor boxer).




Well since i don't let my dogs fight, since that is not behavior i want. I avoid most confrontations with all other dogs.

And yes my dogs are nothing but friendly. But my male does get over protective. Both my dogs have plenty of dogs they get along with. But dogs i and they are unfamiliar with i take no risks. I leash them. So whether or not he can be protective or not. i take precautions by being responsible and leashing them.

And yes it is " Poor boxer " I feel for the guy, he did nothing wrong but be a curious dog. But if the boxer had an owner who listened to people who warn him. His dog would be perfectly fine.


And do i sound like i would let my dogs fight pitbull's? My dog breed was to herd that breed was to fight.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ThomasO said:


> Well since i don't let my dogs fight, since that is not behavior i want. I avoid most confrontations with all other dogs.
> 
> And yes my dogs are nothing but friendly. But my male does get over protective. Both my dogs have plenty of dogs they get along with. But dogs i and they are unfamiliar with i take no risks. I leash them. So whether or not he can be protective or not. i take precautions by being responsible and leashing them.
> 
> ...


"*Luckily both my dogs can handle themselves vs other dogs." Other dogsd do include Pit Bulls, you know.*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

seems like your dogs have had many encounters with other dogs to show off their or his potential to be extremely violant.
knowing this , you have to take extra precautions .
the dogs may have been gathered up to be put back on lead , but they were not under control. The other dog, the boxer , did not approach aggressively , he sniffed the female and then your male lost it . He was the one who showed teeth and showed aggression . Should the other dog have been loose - NO. 
this is contradictory "My dogs have many dogs who they play with in the park locally and are nothing but friendly. Its just my male can sometimes get over protective, and this is why when i see unfamiliar dogs, i leash both of them"
If it is a public leash free dog park you are going to have unfamiliar dogs drop by spontaneously. No one is going to phone you ahead of time to let you know -- so either your dogs are good . Or they are not .

Remedy . don't walk them together . Get more training on the male. If there is more of a history than you are telling then take precautions and walk him in a muzzle. Get training .


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

If your dogs were leashed and his wasn't, it is 100 million percent his fault. It's sad that you, your dogs, and his dog had to be the ones to suffer for his stupidity.
I really hope his idiocy doesn't cost your dogs their lives.

If you must, carry pepper spray on you. If you yell, "I'll pepper spray your dog if you don't get it away!" that will usually make them move quicker and prevent stuff like this from happening.... Should it be necessary? No. Is it? Unfortunately, it seems to be....


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Why you would offer to pay this morons vet bills is beyond me. The fact that you leashed your dog and he ignored your warning says it all.
Im not going to get into the dog handling or behavioral aspects of this situation since they are beside the point. 
You are completely free of fault pay nothing and counter sue. Also, if I were you I would be going after him for the damage caused to your hand by HIS negligence.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Legally its the other guy's fault, but in cases where laws are generally not followed (you weren't following it minutes before) and not really enforced by the police, the "leash law" is just a liability law and isn't something that is respected in your country.

I also don't understand why you didn't just keep walking and do everything in your power to keep the male away from this dog. Knowing that he reacts like that you should've done everything you could to make sure he couldn't get close to the boxer. If you can't control both dogs at the same time (too much power) I would either walk one at a time, or in this case could you have dropped the female's leash and just worked on removing the male from the situation? It sounds to me like the female wouldn't have reacted unless the male did and so you could've prevented the whole thing. Just a thought.

But yeah...the guy definitely needed to have his dog on leash. Where I'm at people have a respect of other dogs and know that there could be issues. So when I'm in the woods where people don't really follow the leash law, we all try to keep our dogs away from each other just in case something like this were to happen.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think talking to an attorney has been the best advice. I would do nothing else until you have talked to him/her.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

in any situation never offer to pay someone, that means you automatically assume that it was your fault. learned that from my insurance company  

Im sorry but I think it's your fault, your dog was agressive not his, even though his was unleashed..most dogs are curious and will come over and sniff you, they don't mean harm, but yours did wan to harm.. if I am walking my dog and I KNOW she will react I walk away, I would never depend on another person to control their dog. I know you said it all happend fast,and maybe there was no time for you to walk away? I think deep down you know you are a fault that's why you agreed to pay... wish u the best. 


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## Meeah'sMom (Sep 21, 2012)

I think that the boxer's owner was irresponsible and put his dog in danger. He didn't heed your warning, so his dog unfortunately suffered the consequence. I feel really bad for the boxer--it wasn't his fault. His owner should have protected him and didn't. I wouldn't have offered to pay his vet bills...he had clear warning. I hope everything works out for you and your dogs. This whole situation never should have happened!


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm in the UK too and i think he doesnt have a leg to stand on, firstly they rarely take dog on dog fights seriously, and since your were on a lead they will see you as having control (more control than him) over your dog.
Luckily it was you that was bitten not him.
Try and get those people to sign somthing asap just in case.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

julie87 said:


> Im sorry but I think it's your fault, your dog was agressive not his,
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



How was this, is any way, shape, or form, his fault?
If he kept walking, I'm sure the other dog still would have followed.
Both of his dogs were leashed. The boxer wasn't. The boxer's owner was given CLEAR warning to collect his dog, but didn't. 
Everyone is telling him to walk the dogs separately - he shouldn't have to. Had the other owner been responsible and leashed his dog or at least had his dog under control, this wouldn't have happened.

Do whatever you feel you need to do to protect yourself and your dogs in the future, (I would carry pepper spray personally, as I mentioned before) but this was 100% absolutely NOT your fault!

ETA: When I had that run-in with the boxer owner the other day, (boxer was leashed, Ozzy wasn't, but was still under my control), had Ozzy NOT been under my control 100% and ignored me and ran up to the boxer and got killed - that would have been MY fault. Yes, the leashed boxer was dog aggressive. But that wouldn't matter. She had her dog on a leash, I didn't.
The same thing happened here, but the difference is that this guy didn't have his dog under control.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think both are at fault. 

I think that the OP, since he knew his dog was dog-aggressive, should have muzzled the dog or walked the dogs one at a time. 

I think the boxer owner should have been able to recall his dog, and listen to the guy with his dogs leashed. 

I think here we can be held more liable if we have a Beware of Dog sign because it implies that we have knowledge that our dog is aggressive, and therefore should be that much more careful to ensure the dog does not have the opportunity to eat people. 

The same is true here. If you _know_ your dog is dog-aggressive that you really need to take that in account when you visit areas where dogs are likely to be. The other dog was not on lead, the parks are not off-lead but the public generally ignores that rule. Again that is a sticky distinction. Here, there is a leash law, if your dog is not leashed and mine is, then you are at fault -- probably. But in a park where it is Common that dogs are off-lead, and the owner _knows _the dog is dog-aggressive -- that is setting his dogs up. 

Having more dog than he can handle is added to this. 

The OP offered to pay the vet bills because he, deep down knows that he does carry some of the liability of this problem. 

It would be up to a judge to determine how much fault is carried by each owner. I think that since the parks are generally used off-leash, and since the man shouted out that his dog was aggressive, he may carry more blame. 

In my opinion, the OP should train his dogs in a controlled setting around other dogs that are also controlled and should not take his dog where there are other, uncontrolled dog whether his is muzzled or not. He should walk the dogs alone so that he has a better ability to manage any situation that arises. And he should pay the vet bills for the dog that was injured because he said he would.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Konotashi said:


> How was this, is any way, shape, or form, his fault?
> If he kept walking, I'm sure the other dog still would have followed.
> Both of his dogs were leashed. The boxer wasn't. The boxer's owner was given CLEAR warning to collect his dog, but didn't.
> Everyone is telling him to walk the dogs separately - he shouldn't have to. Had the other owner been responsible and leashed his dog or at least had his dog under control, this wouldn't have happened.
> ...



If your dog was in an off-lead park and it ran up to the boxer and the boxer killed it, whose fault would it be? Everything is really not all that black and white.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> If your dog was in an off-lead park and it ran up to the boxer and the boxer killed it, whose fault would it be? Everything is really not all that black and white.


It wasn't in an off-leash park, so that's not the question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually he was in a park where dogs are generally off-lead. He knew that. He took his dog-aggressive dog there anyway with another dog in tow. He set the situation up. I am just saying that the other guy may have a case. And with then general bad feeling about GSDs, it just isn't all that cut and dried.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ThomasO said:


> Thanks for all the great replies. It all happened so fast, but i think it was my female that landed a bite on my hand. I was trying to seperate them and foolishly put my hand into the fray , and from the way it happened, his dog didn't really have a chance to land a solid bite.
> 
> *Im from the UK, and all parks in the area are " Leashed " Parks, only the forest's allow dogs to be unleashed. Though i think 95% of dogs i see in parks are unleashed.*
> 
> ...


95% of the dogs are unleashed. HIS dogs were unleashed and swimming until he saw the other dog. So really using the park was a leashed-park defense, I don't think will fly. 

Also, writing about the situation on the internet might not be a good idea if there is litigation.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Your dogs were leashed at the time? I"m going with his fault.
> 
> However, if you know your dogs are aggressive like that then I suggest better training and possibly a muzzle.


You can't train instinct. My male is not dog aggressive but will intervene if a dog is aggressive with my female (or a dude is aggressive with me). Training cannot change this.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Actually training CAN change a dog's behavior. That is the whole point of training. At least for me and my dog, it is the point of training.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was wondering where everyone was getting that the male was DA from, but a few of the previous posts were worded a bit weird, so I didn't say anything. Surely if he WAS DA, there wouldn't have been any calm before the storm.

Your boy probably felt some tension coming from you, and rightfully so. You had no idea what that dog was going to do, and you had to worry about what your dogs could do to him.
If the male WAS being protective, whether it was to the OP or to the female... isn't that why most of you guys got GSDs in the first place? The protectiveness factor?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

From the OP:



ThomasO said:


> So the other day i took both my shepherds to the local park, and took them to the large lake there. Both my dogs love swimming so it was a pretty fun. So as im walking along, both my dogs swim out and shake.
> 
> I looked up and saw a boxer ahead.* My dogs are generally good with other dogs, but can be extremely violant.* So i put both their leads on and continued to walk past.
> 
> ...


Yes, we chose to get German Shepherds due to their courage and the fact that criminals do not want to tangle with them. Usually when people say their dogs are protective, that means the dogs are fearful-reactive. They perceive as threats normal people, places, and things. That is fearfullness, not courage.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

His dog was off leash, he broke the law. It doesn't matter who is at fault morally, ethically, whatever: you are not legally at fault.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The OP was breaking that same law minutes before with two dogs. 

95% of the dogs in the area according to the OP break that law.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I was down at the Ford, yeah we have this little area where people go for a variety of things, not really a park, but there is parking there, and water, and woods, and people do take their dogs there. 

If I am there alone, I will have my dogs off-lead. If someone comes, I put my dogs on lead. We have a leash law in Ohio that is statewide. If you are hunting, and if your dog is under control, you can satisfy the leash law though. 

But if there was someone running their dogs at the Ford, and I come up with my dog, and they told me to leash my dog, as they were leashing theirs, I don't know if I would feel so happy about that either. I mean, that guy was letting his dogs swim, and now I come up and he wants me to keep my dog tethered. Well, he can just control his own dogs or not have them where dogs can enjoy a little freedom. 

I don't like the idea of fights so I would hang onto my dog until the guy loaded up and left. But I can see where someone else might think someone is being a bit forward ordering them to leash their dog when they had their own dogs running around.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

is gsd under the dangerous dog act? in uk? pitbulls are here if a pit does anything doesnt matter how it happens where what or why the pit will get in trouble it seems and be put down. Or I think pits are just banned all together here and not allowed period. Not the samething going on there.

Make sure the area where your dogs attacked the boxer was not leash free. Then he will claim you took an aggressive dangerous dog into a leash free area.

Its like me taking an aggressive dog in a dog park then telling people to keep their dogs away from it. A dog goes to sniff my dog and gets brutalized. Things wont work that way here I will be blamed. Leash or no leash.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dogs, especially GSDs, do not have to be all-or-nothing as far as being social. My Nikon is like the OP describes. He's perfectly fine with my dogs, my friends' dogs, all the dogs on our flyball team, all my foster dogs, and probably 90% of other dogs in public. However if another large male dog comes right up to him (or any of my other dogs) he's not going to like that very much. That doesn't mean he's severely dog aggressive or very "violent". The only dog fights he's been in were a few that were started by MY other male dog (and neither of them got hurt). Maybe the Boxer started the fight anyway. I do not think someone should keep his dog at home or have to muzzle his dog because someone ELSE'S dog comes charging over and picks a fight. I walk my dogs all the time and they are out in public a lot and if another large dog came and jumped on them you bet my male GSD would react. I have absolutely no reason to "train" this out of him. Granted I don't take him to off leash dog parks because he would not enjoy it, but if I were out walking my dog on his 4' leash on a public sidewalk and a Boxer came at him I would charge the Boxer's owner for my dog's vet bills not the other way around. Just because GSDs don't put up with every dog coming in their space does not make them violent or unmanageably aggressive.

Anyway, I would recommend the OP consults a lawyer. I have no idea how these things work in the UK. What I would do in this situation is of no relevance because the laws are different. I would not recommend paying anyone's bills (including your own if you had to get stitched up from the bite) until consulting with a lawyer.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Where everyone is on lead as a regular thing, you should feel comfortable letting a dog that might act aggressively walk on lead with you where you are going. 

Where everyone or 95% of the dogs are generally off-lead, I think that it is presumptuous for us to think that everyone else should grab their dog and put them on lead because you are coming through with yours, especially if you had your dogs off-lead. Your dog is either safe going to an off-lead area or is not safe going to an off-lead area. But what is an off-lead area? Is it off-lead only if there are signs saying that dogs can be off lead, or if there are no signs saying dogs must be on lead. Or is it where dogs in general are off-lead regardless to the laws. 

If I know dogs are likely to be off-lead, and I know that my dog is likely to react, then I wouldn't go, whatever the signs say.

If you are hiding behind the dogs-must-be-leashed-no-exceptions-sign defense, then you should be following that rule religiously whether there are other dogs around or not. Then you would have never offered to pay for the dog's vet bills, and this conversation would be very different. You would be contacting your lawyer for damages to your hand.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree Sue, but in this case we don't know who started the fight. It could have been the Boxer that was posturing and made the first move. But I agree that you can't have it both ways, the OP should keep these dogs on lead now that he's seen they can and will do damage. However I'm not sure it matters, since the GSDs were both on lead when the incident happened. What people usually do or what people get away with doesn't make it right.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with Liesle 

Question for those of us that have dogs that will defend themsleves fiercely from an attack. Do you think keeping a video camera or even trying to turn one on is a good idea if a dog does try to attack yours while you are walking on leash?

I was walking to my car and a lab attacked us then ended up screaming and rolling after my dog corrected it harshly. I have been in situations like that before a hyped up dog attacks us my dog counter attacks the dog screams its head off and bolts in areas where my dog is on leash side walks public places etc... ANyway For situations like that if our dogs cause damage I wonder if there is a way we can just record what is going on so we can save our dog future issues. THese are for non aggressive dogs that will just defend themslves. We have been approached by a lot of friendly dogs and to be honest I don't care about those we just keep walking. My dog has no reaction to dogs that don't want to fight.

I dont consider a dog that will defend itself in a very serious manner from attack to be dog aggressive or even dangerous.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Dogs, especially GSDs, do not have to be all-or-nothing as far as being social. My Nikon is like the OP describes. He's perfectly fine with my dogs, my friends' dogs, all the dogs on our flyball team, all my foster dogs, and probably 90% of other dogs in public. However if another large male dog comes right up to him (or any of my other dogs) he's not going to like that very much. That doesn't mean he's severely dog aggressive or very "violent". The only dog fights he's been in were a few that were started by MY other male dog (and neither of them got hurt). Maybe the Boxer started the fight anyway. I do not think someone should keep his dog at home or have to muzzle his dog because someone ELSE'S dog comes charging over and picks a fight. I walk my dogs all the time and they are out in public a lot and if another large dog came and jumped on them you bet my male GSD would react. I have absolutely no reason to "train" this out of him. Granted I don't take him to off leash dog parks because he would not enjoy it, but if I were out walking my dog on his 4' leash on a public sidewalk and a Boxer came at him I would charge the Boxer's owner for my dog's vet bills not the other way around. Just because GSDs don't put up with every dog coming in their space does not make them violent or unmanageably aggressive.
> 
> Anyway, I would recommend the OP consults a lawyer. I have no idea how these things work in the UK. What I would do in this situation is of no relevance because the laws are different. I would not recommend paying anyone's bills (including your own if you had to get stitched up from the bite) until consulting with a lawyer.


Well stated!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pets4life, Well, trying to put myself in place of a Judge, how would that look? Instead of trying to maintain control of your dog, you are filming the dog approaching and the attack. In anticipation of your dog causing injury to another dog, you are walking around the street with a video-camera so you can record your liability. That suggests you expect your dog to cause injury. A judge might think you would have been better served muzzling your dog and carrying something to protect it with. 

Hard to say. 

I can only say, I have dogs that if they are attacked, they will probably defend themselves, but they have never had to. So I think I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it, and if it happens, I will call the police and tell them that my dog was leashed, a dog came at us and this is what happened. I think that in the vast majority of cases, the leashed dog is going to have the sympathy -- unless it is in an area designated as off-leash.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most people already carry phones that can video. Like Sue says the few times a nasty dog has come at my dog I'm WAY too busy shielding my dogs to be filming. My first priority is protecting my dogs and I'm not really thinking of much else in the moment.

I have had dogs come at my dogs but luckily none of my dogs have really "attacked" back because in all my cases they were very small dogs and I was able to just shoo them away with my feet until their owner grabbed them and the actual threat to my dogs was pretty minimal (in one case the offending dog was so fat he kept trying to jump and latch onto Coke's neck but was so fat he couldn't do it). Luckily my dogs have never put teeth on any other dogs except the few scuffles I've had at home between my own dogs but I'm not naive enough to think they would just lay down and take it if another dog their size attacked us.


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