# Heel



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

So, I have a question... basically wondering how others would go about correcting this... 

I originally taught Zefra to go around me from a front into fuss. I had taught Stark the flip finish and thought I would change it up a bit with Zefra.... well, I don't like it... lol. I prefer the flip, so I taught her the flip instead.

Things were going great until last week (I had taken about 1 month off from training because of work) when I started working with her again.

Now, she will come into a front from anywhere. Nice and fast, straight, nice and close, it's basically beautiful every time. Something I am proud and happy about. I worked on this with her since she came home. Love it.

Here's the issue... when she is in position in front and I ask her to fuss she does not get all the way in (to the left). She is will move over so she is angled - still giving 100% focus and does so really fast, but is not really in position. 

I started asking her "get over". Realized that maybe this wasn't the best option so stopped.

I have been holding the reward where I want her (under my armpit) and then twitching my shoulder back. This will put her into correct position.

BUT... I am afraid that she will start relying on this... 

I tried a few sessions of me not doing anything - not moving - not asking her to move, etc.. but she would just sit there staring at me then eventually start barking at me or offering behaviours.. 

So.... curious as to how others would handle this?

Thanks guys!

I will try to get a video of it tomorrow since it is suppose to only be -5 out!


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

out of all the commands a dog obeys i love it when a dog
sits in front of a person and goes around them and sits.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd go back to food for a bit and reinforce/reward the position. You can get better positions without the body language and her drive state will be a bit lower(focus may be better). Though subtly cueing with the shoulder or whatever won't hurt. 
Or you could use a stick to guide/ tap her rear, but that may ramp her up!


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks - was thinking of food again as well.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Just thinking off the top of my head.. You could try luring with food again and rewarding when she's in the correct position.. You could try using a barrier, like a wall, a fence, etc. so she has no choice but to be correct.. Then gradually move away from the barrier.. You could withhold the reward until she makes more of an effort to get into the right position the first time..

Or you could simply correct her for not being correct.. which is what I would probably do at this point.. (watched the vid you posted on FB)..


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I would go back to food and use a fence or a wall to keep her in close. We had a seminar over the summer with Claudia Romard and we have one club member who is notorious for handler help, so she tied his leash around his shoulder and corrected the handler every time he moved, lol. At first, the dog had no understanding of what fuss meant because his handler wasn't moving his shoulder. He went back to luring and eventually faded the lure without using all the shoulder movement and the dog picked it up super fast.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would ask for the fuss, assume the dog won't be on position and slightly but QUICKLY correct the dog into position once and again and again and again until it becomes mechanical for the dog, I mean, no less than fifty, sixty repetitions before trying to fade the help away.

I've not seen the video, so I don't know how Zefra does it, but thinking on Diabla, who jumps into the fuss, a barrier would mess with her fluidity, so more than some kind of barrier, like a fence, I'd use something that makes her uncomfortable to sit on if crooked, like a piece of wood or bricks


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Hi Elizabeth
I would go back to the basics, she does not understand the fuss position. You stated she will do a great front coming from any direction, will she do a fuss coming from any direction?
I worked the fuss position with the dog coming into it from any direction, same with the front.
I also taught the command get it in and back to get the precision I needed. Once the dog understands the various commands in a lower drive using food as a reward then I up the drive, and play a game with her

I play a game with her when in high drive to see how well she understands the position and the precision going from front to fuss and fuss to front and then sit platz etc. always mixing it up, sometimes I reward sometimes I don't this creates more dirve and anticipation
I have also introduced the word heel to mean I want you in the fuss position on the right.

The fronts, finishes become very fast. Once it is clear in the dogs mind what the fuss position means I will practice it from a front very seldom. 
Journey actually does a flip or military finish, from the front she jumps up to me left shoulder and flips her body into the fuss position. 

Hope that helps
Laurel


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Just thinking off the top of my head.. You could try luring with food again and rewarding when she's in the correct position.. You could try using a barrier, like a wall, a fence, etc. so she has no choice but to be correct.. Then gradually move away from the barrier.. You could withhold the reward until she makes more of an effort to get into the right position the first time..
> 
> Or you could simply correct her for not being correct.. which is what I would probably do at this point.. (watched the vid you posted on FB)..



Yeah, that video was with my sister...... lol.... she doesn't "do" training - and Zefra doesn't really listen to her when it comes to formal training stuff...

She will get closer to position with me, but it's still the same idea.

I have went back to the wall and she is excellent every time. Seems like she is having difficulty when we move away.

I wonder if she just isn't paying attention to the command and just on the reward?


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

lsatov said:


> Hi Elizabeth
> I would go back to the basics, she does not understand the fuss position. You stated she will do a great front coming from any direction, will she do a fuss coming from any direction?
> I worked the fuss position with the dog coming into it from any direction, same with the front.
> I also taught the command get it in and back to get the precision I needed. Once the dog understands the various commands in a lower drive using food as a reward then I up the drive, and play a game with her
> ...


She will come into fuss from any position - even laying on the floor relaxing - but she will come in with a around finish.. not the flip I want.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

This is the video from yesterday.

My sister is working with her and is NOT a trainer at all. She just wanted to see if she could do it... lol. 

Anyways, feedback welcomed.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

So if you are standing with your dog in the fuss position and then step to the right and say fuss what does your dog do? Circle around you to go to fuss or just move over to the right.

The reason I ask is if she just moves to the right, then the front exercise to finish is just a pattern trained behavior. Go back to the basics of training the flip finish using a lure, clicker etc and perhaps introduce a different command in the begining.

Just some thoughts...good luck


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

She will step over to the right about 90% of the time... 

Thanks - I will definitely take another look at this and see if maybe going back to the basics will help this situation..


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would take several steps back and make sure she fully understands what you are asking. Then if she starts cheating I would either mark it with a "no" and make her do it over until she is correct or I would use a "correction" to help her get into the correct position. If the dog is shorting it and not even coming close to basic then I will pop the dog back with the leash when I ask for the finish. If the dog is close, but not straight I will just have the leash behind my legs and use pressure plus food to get them into position. Eventually the food is removed. I don't teach the finish this way, since I like a very animated flip finish, but it works to remind them about correct position. My dogs, though, understand what the leash pressure means from earlier training for the "in" (move your butt right).


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Lisa. 

I taught Stark to really FLIP into position and it looks AWESOME - but I can't remember how I did it... LOL. Surprisingly he has a better finish this way than Zefra. If I can replicate that then it should look awesome with her speed and enthusiasm..


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You also taught her the other finish first so she may just be confused.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, so I haven't switched or taught her anything different yet.. didn't change anything up.. but got a video of how she usually behaves with me (again, it's not all the time). We were at the park just hanging out when I thought I would have my sister video it for me.






I am going to use some suggestions and see how it goes. I will try to post an update in a few sessions (tomorrow-ish).


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Just watched your video. Noticed that after you assisted her to get in the correct position you rewarded her??
So perhaps she thinks that she will get rewarded for the incorrect position.
When I train if I need to assist to get the percision I do not reward until the dog does it on their own. I let them figure it out. It may take a bit longer but they get it . 

Laurel


----------

