# Found a great breeder, but the female is a dm carrier



## mlw987m (Jun 5, 2009)

I found a wonderful breeder whom I spoke to at length, but I noticed her female is listed as a DM carrier. I'm thinking that this may not be right for me. Any thoughts?thanks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why? Is the sire a carrier as well? If not, and the test is actually accurate (which I have my doubts on the accuracy of the DM tests since you can get different results from different companies), then it's not an issue.


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## mlw987m (Jun 5, 2009)

She is using a stud TBD. I read that if one is a carrier and the other normal, there is a 50/50 chance of DM. I think I've done TOO much reading


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I think you should PM Carmen, or one of the other breeders for an opinion. I have no scientific knowledge. Just going from my gut, I would be concerned. If I had a choice between breeding stock who were DM carriers, or not, I would choose not. If I was purchasing a puppy, I would want to know that neither parent carried DM. I lost my previous GSD to DM. DM is horrible.

I guess I would want to know what is so awesome about this bitch, that she would be considered, even though she is a DM carrier. Or - maybe I am all wet and it is no big deal. It will be interesting to see what smarter people have to say about this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mlw987m said:


> She is using a stud TBD. I read that if one is a carrier and the other normal, there is a 50/50 chance of DM. I think I've done TOO much reading


There is a difference between being a carrier and actually developing DM. Talk to this breeder. They can explain it all.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Here is an article that may give you more insight as to causes and risks. 

Kerschberger German Shepherds Degenerative Myelopathy Health Information for ALL Dogs


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

For years and years and years - we had no way to know if a dog was going to have DM - now we have at least a clue!!!! I have tested a couple generations now.....my females are all clear, and so far, the progeny tested have been clear...even though three males I have used have been carriers.....my nearly 13 year old was clear and her progeny were mostly clear with one male carrier....

Is it perfect?????????? NO - not yet.....but it is still better than nothing......responsible breeders use the test to attempt to keep from producing it....no one said it was perfect - I have absolutely NO PROBLEM using a carrier with my clear females if I like everything else about him! My K - L -M litters were all from clear females and carrier males....I hope more of the pups get tested so that we keep building up that database...

If we throw out every dog who is a carrier we would so drastically reduce the gene pool that there would be new problems from too much backmassing and linebreeding...


Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

mlw987m said:


> She is using a stud TBD. I read that if one is a carrier and the other normal, there is a 50/50 chance of DM. I think I've done TOO much reading



No - only a 25% chance of the pup being a carrier....there is a 50/50 chance of getting a gene from the sire who is a carrier - and that is only half of the equation.....

Each parent has 2 genes - pup gets one from each....so there are 3 clears and one not clear - he gets a clear from clear mom, and ? from dad - could be clear - so a 1 in 4 chance of being a carrier




Lee


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

wolfstraum said:


> For years and years and years - we had no way to know if a dog was going to have DM - now we have at least a clue!!!! I have tested a couple generations now.....my females are all clear, and so far, the progeny tested have been clear...even though three males I have used have been carriers.....my nearly 13 year old was clear and her progeny were mostly clear with one male carrier....
> 
> Is it perfect?????????? NO - not yet.....but it is still better than nothing......responsible breeders use the test to attempt to keep from producing it....no one said it was perfect - I have absolutely NO PROBLEM using a carrier with my clear females if I like everything else about him! My K - L -M litters were all from clear females and carrier males....I hope more of the pups get tested so that we keep building up that database...
> 
> ...



Lee, thank you for the information. Just to clarify, you have said all your females were clear and you have used carrier males. Would you also use a female who is a carrier, as is the situation the OP is looking at.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What is the percentage chance that a carrier developes the disease?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sounds as if it's not desirable to breed carrier dogs but to eliminate them from breeding would in the long run restrict the GSD gene pool too much.

This is a case of allowing one defect and taking the risk to prevent other problems down the road? It may be, that the person looking for a GSD for themselves and is not a breeder may have some legitimate concerns. What are the breeders doing with the pups that carry 2 copies of the gene where the risk is increased? Are they disclosing anything in their contracts?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

There are two parts to the DM gene. As Lee said, carrier just means the dog carries one part of the two parts that make up the gene. If the dog carried both parts it wouldn't be a carrier, it would have DM. Big difference. My female is a carrier. I will breed her to a clear male. Plain and simple. Her mother is a carrier and was bred to clear males. The worst she has ever produced was carriers.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> There are two parts to the DM gene. As Lee said, carrier just means the dog carries one part of the two parts that make up the gene. If the dog carried both parts it wouldn't be a carrier, it would have DM. Big difference. My female is a carrier. I will breed her to a clear male. Plain and simple. Her mother is a carrier and was bred to clear males. The worst she has ever produced was carriers.


It seems like this would be a very important test to have done and a huge red flag if people test for hips and not DM. I had no idea the numbers were so high for any of the ratings. 

If someone purchased from a breeder and DM testing was not done in the sire or dam, with the high numbers and acceptance of positive testers in the breeding community - it sounds very dangerous. 

I am thinking if it is a common practice to use DM+ dogs, it should be disclosed (as the breeder has done with the OP) and it's absolutely necessary people know and understand never to breed that dog to an untested or positive tested dog. 

I see so many ads for GSD pups that say hips and elbows tested but seldom DM. How many JQP know that this is an accepted practice?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I found this a bit interesting:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Policies

And this:

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=GS


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is the percentage chance that a carrier developes the disease?




Unknown - any one claiming numbers is speculating - we have only been testing for what 5? 6 years???????


Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Lee, thank you for the information. Just to clarify, you have said all your females were clear and you have used carrier males. Would you also use a female who is a carrier, as is the situation the OP is looking at.



Sure - just like a male!!!!! As long as the female is solid, stable, outstanding in work ability and character and fit all my criteria - it does not matter to me if they are clear or carriers in either sex - as long as I am going to produce only clear or carriers in the pups and not 'at risk' animals given the information we have at hand. I would have to look long and hard to use an 'at risk' male, even with a clear - but would not condemn anyone for doing so....a male used very very heavily a few years back was at risk, but bred heavily both before and after being tested....video of the dog showed he was obviously affected at the end of his life....but I know he was bred to dogs who later were tested as clear....you have to remember this is fairly new and it is better than nothing!!!! 

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> Sounds as if it's not desirable to breed carrier dogs but to eliminate them from breeding would in the long run restrict the GSD gene pool too much.
> 
> This is a case of allowing one defect and taking the risk to prevent other problems down the road? It may be, that the person looking for a GSD for themselves and is not a breeder may have some legitimate concerns. What are the breeders doing with the pups that carry 2 copies of the gene where the risk is increased? Are they disclosing anything in their contracts?



You are taking what was said and making a judgement/conclusion that was not stated.

It is not a matter of whether it is *desirable* or not to breed carriers....it is a fact that there are dogs who are carriers and a breeder just needs to make an informed decision about the parter when using them - just like testing is available for the coat gene! If you don't want coats, you look for a partner who does not carry it....but the coat gene is not tested for as producing a coat does not risk the dog's life and health like DM! I have several people who have had dogs from me in the past who want a coat...I have only ever produced them in one litter and although I have never bothered to test for them, I don't think I am going to produce them given the fact that none of the Kyra/Csabre/Bengal - Kira pups have ever been coats....so I don't check or worry about it....

DM is different - so people DO check, and DO base choices in breeding to avoid producing a double positive or 'at risk' dog....

Most responsible breeders also sell on limited and require health testing before papers are released.....personally, anyone who is breeding anything from my dogs will discuss what they are doing and I will make sure they understand that if the dog is a carrier that they will be responsible in their breeding practices....there is one male who will probably be used at stud out west - he is OFA Good/Normal and a carrier - his owner will not use him without running the female's info and stats by me and me approving the match - by HER CHOICE! It is a matter of being an intelligent responsible owner/breeder.

Seriously - long term we can eliminate it, but only in the segment of the population bred by responsible people - but the BYB and puppy mill and idiots just looking to make a buck selling cheap puppies for pets will perpetuate the disease anyway.


Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> You are taking what was said and making a judgement/conclusion that was not stated.
> 
> It is not a matter of whether it is *desirable* or not to breed carriers....it is a fact that there are dogs who are carriers and a breeder just needs to make an informed decision about the parter when using them - just like testing is available for the coat gene! If you don't want coats, you look for a partner who does not carry it....but the coat gene is not tested for as producing a coat does not risk the dog's life and health like DM! I have several people who have had dogs from me in the past who want a coat...I have only ever produced them in one litter and although I have never bothered to test for them, I don't think I am going to produce them given the fact that none of the Kyra/Csabre/Bengal - Kira pups have ever been coats....so I don't check or worry about it....
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> There are two parts to the DM gene. As Lee said, carrier just means the dog carries one part of the two parts that make up the gene. If the dog carried both parts it wouldn't be a carrier, it would have DM. .


actually the dog would be AT RISK of developing DM. Not all dogs that have 2 copies of the gene are going to actually develop DM. Merely that they may. Dogs that are clear or carriers (presuming that the result isn't a false negative) won't develop DM.

It's rather like the breast cancer genes in humans - it isn't a diagnosis. It is simply a tool to make more informed decisions


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My male is a carrier(both of them are) and I was really disappointed to not do a breeding because both the stud and bitch that was chosen are carriers. I would still love a puppy from that breeding, but no way would it be responsible to breed knowing both tested as carrier. 
That said, he has been used as stud with a clear bitch. As long as breeders are doing this(controversial test) at least there is some knowledge about who is or isn't a carrier. In my dogs mother lines there have been NO cases of DM in any dogs that are well over the age that it starts showing up. Longevity and healthy dogs are a given with the Mother Line( http://www.wildhauskennels.com/ira.htm ) . They live to 12-13 which for a GSD is the norm.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in order for statistics to have any validity there has to be a diagnosis which verifies the presence of a condition and with DM that means a post mortem , autopsy.

other than that the diagnosis is PRESUMED . 

heard someone state that their GSD which passed away at just over 15 years of age had DM . 
do you think that possibly the dog ran up against the inevitable , may have
had age-related arthritis 

there are forum members with young dogs with horrible , life impacting soft pasterns and ligaments ,
barely mobile . 

take that seriously

even if breeding two A / A animals there is RISK , not guaranteed .
A/A to 0/0 == next generation carrier A/0 to 0/0 - choose the best and continue. Eventually eliminate the problem without throwing baby out with bath water .


the understanding of disease genetics is changing -- epigenetics -- outside influences -- signals which are allowed to turn on , or are kept in an off position.

not so simple anymore - 

on top of that there are genetic deletion snips which can eliminate undesirable genetic material 

this can't be done for hip dysplasia which is complex and does not have a single gene in action -- multifactorial,
and environment especially in formative youth , and exercise and nutrition

breeding is art and science . 

I have yet to see or hear of a great dog produced by a geneticist.

as to my own dogs , they have been tested --

http://www.fredlanting.org/2010/02/the-new-knowledge-of-dm-“gsd-myelopathy”/


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

To me, this is just another example of how so many of the problems in the breed got perpetuated. From what we've heard and are able to track back to; some known bad lines were imported because "the money was there". These, earned but the very breeders in Germany knew they had defects.

It is known - that breeding dogs with the utmost care and available knowledge in genetics that very knowledgable breeders can keep something like this under control "within their echelon". It is also known, that this adherence to standards does not trickle down. 

If you want to acknowledge where these severe problems originated and are kept in the gene pool came from - it is from top down and I don't see how that is justified knowing what is going to happen. 

90% of the ads I see by "acknowledged reputable breeders" are not testing for DM. It's still listed as "optional" on many health sites and registries. I just don't understand the thinking. If the best interest of the breed was at consideration - the repetition of breeding these + dogs would not be considered as generation after generation is inheriting the trait and most of those pups and parents are not tested.

This, along with the environmental factor contributing to so many problems not seen before and the willingness to still breed them is astonishing to me. If you consider the betterment of the breed to get clean healthy dogs from the top down - eventually there should be a reversal - not with known problems like this being passed because "it's only ok for specific breedings - checked dogs" when you know that's not going to happen in the larger populations.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

perspective Degenerative Myelopathy - Using the DNA test 
excerpt from above link
" For breeds with a high frequency of the DM mutation, it will take wise use of the test and several generations to maintian a healthy and diverse gene pool while reducing the prevalence of DM. It is important for breeders and owners to keep in mind all the traits present in an individual dog, and not to simply breed a test result. We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process."

outside influences , your management , basic good idea no matter what 
copy from same link 
" Factors that may influence the age of onset of symptoms are the topic of current research - at this time we cannot predict which of the genetically at risk dogs will have an early appearance of clinical signs, and which will have a delayed onset."

Diet -- inflammation is a key initiating factor in many degenerative diseases, including joint issues and the nervous system. 
Degenerative Myelopathy is suspected to have an auto-immune connection. 
When the digestive system is flawed , several problems including allergies, sensitivities, IBS, and more serious
inflammation driven ailments happen.
DM is the immune system turning on itself .
Even if the dog has a chance of DM you can suppress the disease process .
Put these dietary aides to use ---- antioxidants , fish oil EPA/DHA , phosphatidylcholine sourced from egg YOLKS, sunflower seed lecithin, liver* -- full 8 compound vitamin E , http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/1259...herol-transfer-protein-mRNA-in-German-shephep
quick quote from above link "However, there are indications that vitamin E deficiency may be involved in the pathogenesis of DM. Therefore, we analyzed the expression and the nucleotide sequence of the canine alpha-tocopherol transfer protein (alpha Ttp) of German shepherd dogs with DM in order to determine whether a deficiency or a defect of the alpha Ttp could be a primary factor in the pathogenesis of DM"

* more on liver --- one of those offal foods that have fallen out of disfavour in our own diets .
Liver is a great source of Vitamin B 12 . Neuropathy and a deficiency of this vitamin do have a proven link.

somewhere in the forum archives there should be some of my posts covering nutrition and DM

later--


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process."


Why just test potential breeding stock? Wouldn't it make more sense to test all puppies produced from dogs that are carriers? (The test can be done on puppies.) Wouldn't that give a clearer picture?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I just want to say from what I have gathered from the breeders commenting on this thread, hats off to the lot of you. It is not an easy task that you are faced with and there are a lot of unknowns and nature can be fickle.

While others are derisive of all that you do, your time, diligence, and passion as stewards of this breed is well appreciated by those who enjoy and appreciate the fruits of your efforts.

Thank you for breeding for the whole package, the total German Shepherd, with emphasis on correct temperament while balancing other factors.

I have had two German Shepherds with genetic issues, HD. The first was a stray we took in that was later given to us when we found the owner, and one could not have asked for a better German Shepherd. Despite his hips, his temperament was exemplary. The other GSD was from a breeder that placed a strong emphasis on health at the cost of other traits. I don't blame the breeder for that dog still having HD despite the best of their efforts, but I will blame for not breeding with other important traits in mind, such as temperament. The dog with the correct temperament and poor health was still a joy to live with while the dog with bad temperament and poor health was a struggle.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> To me, this is just another example of how so many of the problems in the breed got perpetuated. From what we've heard and are able to track back to; some known bad lines were imported because "the money was there". These, earned but the very breeders in Germany knew they had defects.
> 
> It is known - that breeding dogs with the utmost care and available knowledge in genetics that very knowledgable breeders can keep something like this under control "within their echelon". It is also known, that this adherence to standards does not trickle down.
> 
> ...


the biggest problem in this country is backyard breeders who do NO health testing, no temperament testing - breed for money or out of ignorance and flood the market with puppies so people can buy "affordable" pets and then those people go ahead and repeat the cycle....

many of the people who profess or appear to be good breeders are pumping out litter after litter after litter with no goal other than making money and have figured out how to manipulate their presentation of what they are selling to appeal to the broadest range of people with money in their pocket and a little knowledge.

The number of breeders who breed working dogs, with care, concern and ethics is a drop in the bucket compared to the general population of people producing GSDs who have AKC papers, then there is CKC (continental( UKC and whatever else they have thought up to get around the minimal AKC requirements.


Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mlw987m said:


> I found a wonderful breeder whom I spoke to at length, but I noticed her female is listed as a DM carrier. I'm thinking that this may not be right for me. Any thoughts?thanks


I am wondering why you would be considering a pup from a breeder you don't trust. Because that is what this boils down to.
Most breeders have dogs that are carriers, some even have dogs that are at risk. It's HOW they use them that is important. We can't just run around throwing away good genes. 
I lost the love of my life to DM, so I am pretty twitchy about it. When I thought I could get a pup and reached out to breeders I was very clear about my need to never go through that again. None had an issue with that. It simply excludes me from future breedings that may produce at risk pups. All understood my position. And understand that as others have pointed out even at risk dogs may never become symptomatic. DM is late onset and the bottom line is that some dogs don't live long enough for the disease to show it's face, or something else takes them down first. No reputable breeder is going to sell someone an at risk dog without full disclosure.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> the biggest problem in this country is backyard breeders who do NO health testing, no temperament testing - breed for money or out of ignorance and flood the market with puppies so people can buy "affordable" pets and then those people go ahead and repeat the cycle....
> 
> many of the people who profess or appear to be good breeders are pumping out litter after litter after litter with no goal other than making money and have figured out how to manipulate their presentation of what they are selling to appeal to the broadest range of people with money in their pocket and a little knowledge.
> 
> ...


 I wish I could multiple "like" this.
I wish I could press the golden button and confetti would rain down from the ceiling.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DM ... yeah sadly many "Boxers" are well acquainted with it! I was quite surprised to discover it could be an issue with GSD's also?? 


But with "Boxers" AFAIK ... there is only one "Breeder" of Boxers that has "DM" clear breeding pairs?? And I asked her about the "one clear and one carrier" thing and why do that??? And she said "if the DM carriers where were eliminated from the "Boxer" gene pool ..."70" percent of all Breeding pairs would be "gone" her dogs tend to be from Europe.

But for an understanding of the "Carrier and at Risk" with "DM" here you go:
DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY - Gentry Boxers


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> the biggest problem in this country is backyard breeders who do NO health testing, no temperament testing - breed for money or out of ignorance and flood the market with puppies so people can buy "affordable" pets and then those people go ahead and repeat the cycle....
> 
> many of the people who profess or appear to be good breeders are pumping out litter after litter after litter with no goal other than making money and have figured out how to manipulate their presentation of what they are selling to appeal to the broadest range of people with money in their pocket and a little knowledge.
> 
> ...


I didn't know that the reputable breeders were getting any of their stock from backyard breeders??? This would be the only plausible reason for the problems according to the explanation. Why else would someone be forced to breed these dogs? Are any of these problems inherent in just WL or SL dogs?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> I didn't know that the reputable breeders were getting any of their stock from backyard breeders??? This would be the only plausible reason for the problems according to the explanation. Why else would someone be forced to breed these dogs? Are any of these problems inherent in just WL or SL dogs?


HUH?????????

I am sorry - I apparently am having problems expressing myself clearly!!!!

NO one said reputable breeders are getting BYB dogs for breeding stock.....certainly not me

What I said was that there are so many BYB who do not health test that this disease will never be eradicated. That pet people looking for an inexpensive puppy will always run a risk of ending up with a DM dog...

The number of litters produced by reputable breeders doing European lines and health testing and temperament testing is a drop in the bucket when you look at the huge numbers of German Shepherds produced in this country.

Is this more clear?????


Lee


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I need to explain my comments too. I am not down on breeders but I don't see where all the blame can be placed at the lower levels. I also do not see how even the best breeders can deal with today's problems in the breed with the lesser testing options offered. If, what is known about this breed and the universities and top geneticists could be turned lose to focus their most current knowledge, brilliant minds and latest tech equipment on the problems, then I could see hope and a possibly very bright future for the breed.

As I have stated many times, in every post questioning top down - I don't understand how they can expect to deal with these problems when such meager resources are available. This is so frustrating because the knowledge and technology is probably out there but years away because of course, humans are the focus.

I would like to read just one post here, that talks about the problems and intentional breedings with dogs such as DM+ dogs and why it is done rather than just result to blame at the bottom uninformed level. These are higher level topics and IMO need to be talked about rather than just beating the old scapegoat "bottom" again. 

I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed. Lets all agree that minor problems can and probably become major problems at the "bottom" but, what about the middle and upper that are trying? What are they doing above and beyond the hip and elbow tests? If they do test for DM in their breeding selections - do they test the puppies and disclose? Do they disclose when a dog or pup they raised is carrying both genes? Why is this testing still considered optional?

I don't know what the "bottom" does - the "bottom does as it always do, and it will always be here... I want to know what the "middle" and "top" does - because that is the only future to look forward to..... and if something doesn't seem right - an explanation would be appreciated.....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Who is breeding DM+ dogs on the top? Can anybody name one breeder or is this pure speculation? 
@wolfstraum  Dang girl, you had me fooled. I always thought that you looked at the whole picture and the future of the breed. 
@carmspak Same goes to you.

And to think I would not hesitate to seek these people out for their knowledge. Boy do I feel foolish now.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I would feel foolish too. None of the hard questions have been answered here, It's all questions and speculation by all, unless you are a top breeder - some will form their die hard shells and defend until the end, but none seems qualified to answer even the newby questions when a subject like this comes up. I understand now, that it's because they do not know because they are not living in the top current environment. 

I'm sure it's because they aren't currently breeders and "at the top" but, there are questions without answers and it would be great if someone currently a top breeder could help us with these questions, someone qualified. Does anyone here know someone like that they may invite to come here and help answer some of these questions? Someone that is living/breathing living in the now of the "top" - not someone who does not have the direct current experience? That's all great but "more current affairs" would be more accurate to the questions asked for today's and future GSD owners.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote StoneyV
"I would really like to hear from someone that looks at the whole picture and future of the breed"

Okay. You heard . And there are certainly other breeders that I would put into this league sitting in the wings of this forum , conformation experts such as Linda Shaw , breeder- trainers who bemoan the disappearance of valuable traits, authors such as Willis , Lanting , who give a good genetic perspective of the breed through the years, many people I look up to and learn from with proven track records outside of the SV system. 

"If, what is known about this breed and the universities and top geneticists could be turned lose to focus their most current knowledge, brilliant minds and latest tech equipment on the problems, then I could see hope and a possibly very bright future for the breed."

I have a dear friend that fits this description exactly. Super-top geneticist ! Contributor and participant in both the Human and Canine Genomic studies , the later released in 2003 or 2004 . 
Would I trust him, want him to breed , and produce a good dog . Hahahahahaha , lol. No way.

This is a good site http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/resources/Canine-degenerative-myelopathy-NSDTRetPK.pdf 

again , mention of nutrients to stall or halt onset , which seems to be set into motion by some pivotal trigger, trauma, deficiency in diet, inflammation .

Antioxidants anyone ? 

I'd be interested in knowing if there are stats which record the sex of the confirmed DM afflicted dog. 

Often DM is compared to human MS . Apparently in MS there are 3 or 4 times as many women suffering MS then there are males, suggesting a hormonal component .
Is this the case with our canines.

DM is the result of one mutated gene . 
What is the big picture of the entire canine DM confirmed patient. 
Is there a frequency of some other commonality , some condition of management (diet , stress , urban/rural living , exposure to toxins) . Some other reports on organic or other orthopedic health.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The hard questions have been answered. Some just choose not to hear it.

What constitutes breeders at the top? 

What disqualifies breeders like Carmspak and Wolfstraum from being considered breeders at the top?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This is also the type of information I want to know. I will read your link tomorrow when my eyes don't feel so filled with sandpaper. I want to know. Just, I want to know - what's being done at the top all across the board to save this breed. I don't see anything in the very near future because of restrictions in funding and priorities - people come first. I CAN'T take the answers that this breed is not in imminent danger, everything is under control and it will all be ok. Where does anyone see that? This is the kind of question I would like to ask to your guy....

I am very happy to see the recent partnering and huge increase of funding because of the proven association with humans/dogs in the area of OCD/CCD genetic defects. Who can say that DM isn't also directly associated with many human conditions that the more simple study thru dogs might prove to be a win, win for both species?

It is a little more than coincidence, IMO that these things are coming to be - environmental may be so much a part of the problems that it's showing across species - it's that bad and still we don't get it.....


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

The fact that we do have these tests is a sign that the breed isn't in imminent danger. It's about using the knowledge at hand and buyers knowing what that knowledge actually means.

There is even reasoning behind why some top breeders don't do the test for DM. When it was first introduced, the results came back as clear, carrier, and DM positive. However, there were dogs that were diagnosed as clear or carrier who had DM-like symptoms before death and were diagnosed by a vet as having DM. Dogs that came back as positive that never showed a sign of having the disease. Naturally, this led to quite a bit of distrust among many breeders.

People worked with the researchers, had autopsies done on their dogs and waited for further developments. What was learned was that A) having 2 copies of the gene didn't mean that a dog would get DM, just that they were at risk for it, and B) that many of the dogs who were being diagnosed with DM actually had other problems that mimicked the symptoms of DM. It was also found that many of those similar diseases were often not being treated, allowing dogs that could have been saved to die. So, the wording of the results were changed - at risk instead of positive - and attempts are being made to spread the word about the different issues which may mimic DM.

Of course, the vet community isn't always a help with this. Vets are rarely up to date on all of the breed specific research unless they are either interested in that disease itself or are actively involved in that breed. Think of all the people who come here asking if their young puppy has HD because it bunny hops - many vets will say "yes" simply on the fact that GSDs are prone to HD. I'm on an all-breed group where a puppy buyer was encouraged to have surgery done on their dog to "prevent" developing arthritis and hip issues later in life. It would only be $300 extra if done at the time of neuter. Of course, that surgery needs to be done before the pup is 4 months old so he needs to be neutered ASAP. This pup has no sign of hip issues, a poorly focused and positioned radiograph, generations of HD-tested parents but the vet says it's for the best to have it done!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IF we were to eliminate all carriers and, even, at risk from the gene pool we would decrease the genetic diversity in this breed even more thus risking the emergence of more deleterious issues. A wise breeder uses these tests to help with their breeding decisions, but they know they can not be the sole reason for doing a breeding without causing damage to the breed as a whole. 

Another issue is that there may be two forms of DM in the GSD since they have had clear dogs (tested twice by the UoM) that were confirmed to have DM upon necropsy (the ONLY way to diagnosis DM). Interestingly they have discovered the gene looked for in the DM test in Fox Terriers. A breed that has never had a confirmed case of DM. We need to use the test wisely, but knowing the background of our dogs is equally important to decrease the incidence of these awful health issues.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Other than cancers, I am not sure we are seeing more cases of terrible health issues like DM. The WWW has just brought more people together to discuss these things thus making us more informed (well, not in all cases).


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can only add in relation regarding to the immune system my own experience and documented through a biopsy - aluminum in vaccines can cause or wake up all kinds of immune system disorders or cause macrophagic myofascitiis which mimics MS/lupis with whom may have a weak or faulty immune system(myself having asthma and allergies). So owners who have a dog with DM or a weak immune system becareful of the effects vaccines can have on your dog.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I'd be interested in knowing if there are stats which record the sex of the confirmed DM afflicted dog.


You can pull the information up on the OFA database.
6421 dogs have been tested. 
5687 of the results are public.

Public database shows this for GSD's:

Males: 
Clear 1833
Carriers 614
At Risk 328
Total: 2775

Females:
Clear 2015
Carriers 515
At Risk 382
Total: 2912

Statistic for all 6421 dogs tested is below. Not broken down into M/F
53% Clear
31.7% Carriers
15.3% At Risk


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey , I would get together with my researcher friend and yack for hours any day of the week.
When we meet and "lunch" the wait staff gets a whopping tip to compensate for the table not turning over for new customers Call it "rent".

The fate of the breed is in the hands of the breeders, the judges , the buyer/owners , and the public which form policy and tolerance levels . 
Think of IPO changing to be more PC acceptable .

Sometimes the breeder / judges are one and the same and when they hold high office such as President of the SV long reaching changes are made , better or worse -- depending on how other breeders and the buying public respond.
Think of the Martin brothers - Wienerau and Arminius .

"It's about using the knowledge at hand and buyers knowing what that knowledge actually means."
Dainerra said .

Oh so true. 

Not just this discussed issue with DM . Go back and read both of Lisa's posts .

The issue of buyers knowing what the information actually means extends to hip dysplasia ratings.

The OP wouldn't want to buy a pup from a "wonderful breeder" because they had a carrier female.

I know this goes on with people looking at OFA FAIR and rejecting the litter , or the stud , or the female.

Get the facts but know what the facts actually mean.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I can only speak from personal experience.

Breeders who don't test, don't deserve my business.
But I want to see other relevant testing done as well. And I want to see some care for the breed as a whole. DM is part of a bigger picture, only part.
Since testing is a relatively new thing, I get how a breeder could have a dog that is phenomenal in all areas and tests at risk. I would never suggest those genetics be garbaged, I simply want to see a breeder take care with those genes and ensure that such a dog is bred to prevent continuation of the disease.
The reality is that many at risk dogs will live full, healthy lives. As Carmen pointed out there are other factors at play and research is to new for anyone to determine if certain lines have earlier onset then others. 
Look at the number of tested dogs, it's low and almost all of those dogs are breeding stock from reputable, caring breeders.
I want buyers to take a stand and educate themselves about all aspects of health. Diet, exercise, routine care, etc.
With an aching heart I can see that I may have contributed to Sabi's condition, live and learn. I was fortunate that she was not diagnosed until quite late in life, and with diligent care she lived a long time after the initial diagnosis. Ultimately it was my decision to let her go and simple old age was a definite factor. 
The prognosis with DM is death. And it sucks to watch, but with diligent and careful breeding practices and educated owners this disease can be wiped out. The problem lies with the buyers who want bargain puppies, not with the breeders who test and select.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who is breeding DM+ dogs on the top? Can anybody name one breeder or is this pure speculation?
> 
> @wolfstraum Dang girl, you had me fooled. I always thought that you looked at the whole picture and the future of the breed.
> 
> ...


Don't jump to conclusions. 

A well known dog was bred quite heavily. I knew someone who got carriers out of each puppy tested....I also know that a breeder requested the test be done - at a very late stage in the dogs life. THERE IS NO POINT IN MENTIONING THE DOG BY NAME - HE IS DEAD NOW.

I NEVER BRED TO THE DOG - for other reasons....Personally I would NOT breed to a +/+ dog unless there was a super super good reason....I would not KEEP a +/+ dog if I had bred it [NO chance of that!!! unless all the tests are wrong BTW]


PLEASE REREAD MORE CAREFULLY WHATEVER CAUSED YOU TO POST THAT YOU FEEL FOOLISH FOR BELIEVING THAT CARMEN AND I ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE AND KNOWLEDGABLE...AND MAKING SUCH A STATEMENT!!!!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> Don't jump to conclusions.
> 
> A well known dog was bred quite heavily. I knew someone who got carriers out of each puppy tested....I also know that a breeder requested the test be done - at a very late stage in the dogs life. THERE IS NO POINT IN MENTIONING THE DOG BY NAME - HE IS DEAD NOW.
> 
> ...


So sorry! I was being sarcastic based on another's rude comment. I have all the respect in the world for you and Carmspak. Please accept my apology.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So sorry! I was being sarcastic based on another's rude comment. I have all the respect in the world for you and Carmspak. Please accept my apology.



Without the little  or  it is quite often hard to know by just words that sarcasm is intended!

  

Thanks!



Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> Without the little  or  it is quite often hard to know by just words that sarcasm is intended!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I had a quarter for every time I was told to add a few happy emoticons to my comments, we both could retire! :smile2:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

earlier I said 

"The issue of buyers knowing what the information actually means extends to hip dysplasia ratings.

The OP wouldn't want to buy a pup from a "wonderful breeder" because they had a carrier female.

I know this goes on with people looking at OFA FAIR and rejecting the litter , or the stud , or the female.

Get the facts but know what the facts actually mean."

If I could slip this in regarding hips and guarantees. When you buy a pup often there is a guarantee on the hip results .
This is voluntary.
I don't know of any european breeder that offers a hip guarantee. 

Here is the issue. The guarantee does not mean that the dog won't or can't get hip dysplasia . The guarantee is the private arrangement between buyer and breeder as to what will happen SHOULD the dog have dysplasia (and to what degree) .
Once you agree to whatever the terms are , then you can't squawk afterwards.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> earlier I said
> 
> "The issue of buyers knowing what the information actually means extends to hip dysplasia ratings.
> 
> ...



Actually - quite a few breeders will warranty hips out of Europe - they send you a replacement puppy of their choice....of course - the three people I know who received replacement pups received terribly nervy pups....2 from a well known Belgian kennel, 1 from a West German....the breeder I imported Zibera (Panther) from stated that they would replace her if she did not pass hips and elbows.


Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Too many times - breeds run to test or over test, before determining what the real issues facing a breed are. In breeds where there are vast numbers - it is simple to say I test for XYZ and then breed around it. 


THE PROBLEM

Purebred dogs are increasingly afflicted with genetic disorders that negatively affect health, lifespan, behavior, and the ability to lead a full, happy life. The technology to explore the causes of disease at the molecular level is improving rapidly, and because the canine genome has become an excellent model in which to study the basis of many human diseases, the current interest in canine genetics will continue to increase.

Locating the genes that underlie genetic disorders in dogs can identify cause and function, but don’t eliminate the deleterious consequences to health. Breeders use test information to minimize the risk of affected offspring through selection of breeding pairs, but as the number of genetic disorders increase, the breeding options diminish. As breeders select away from unwanted genes, the genetic diversity of the gene pool declines, which increases the probability that other deleterious genes will begin to be a problem. In a way, the best efforts of breeders to minimize the health risks of the puppies they produce by testing and careful selection, only continue to make matters worse over the long term. To learn more about this project: GLOBAL DOG PEDIGREE PROJECT


from a biologist's / geneticist's view point BREEDS as we know them are a modern , artificial construct. Future ? I don't know . The fate of this too is in the hands of the breeders. 

http:GLOBAL DOG PEDIGREE PROJECT


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

And the next paragraph in that article titled "The Solution" goes on to say;

"The solution to this problem is to improve the genetic health of the dog. In some cases, this can be done by locating isolated populations, perhaps in another kennel or even in another country, that contains unique genes that can be reintroduced into the larger breeding population.

It might be accomplished by bringing dogs together from field and bench lines that have been genetically separated for perhaps generations.

In the most desperate situations, where extinction of a breed is possible, outcrossing to another breed can be the only option left to save the breed." 

This article is 2012 and I could not find any updates on their endeavor. I also noticed the GSD at that point in time was not included.

Here is a sidebar article from that page that is very encouraging and I am interested if any breeders out there are using genetic testing (say using the simple swab technique) now currently available to help them with their decisions. 
How molecular genetics will change dog breeding


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

from the study 
"The solution to this problem is to improve the genetic health of the dog. In some cases, this can be done by locating isolated populations, perhaps in another kennel or even in another country, that contains unique genes that can be reintroduced into the larger breeding population.

yes , the breed which is supporting this study is a breed with a very small number of dogs .
By finding and disseminating information all breeders will have knowledge of what there is to choose from, somewhat similar to the pedigree data base for GSD.

However the GSD has in reality become 3 breeds , satisfying the requirements of distinct breed by exclusive selection , those being WGSLs , ASLs and the "other" WGWand non SV working genetic groups.

We had opportunities for accessing isolated populations, when the DDR opened , later reunified and when Czech and Slovenian lines became available.

In some ways the British "Alsation" represent an isolated "island" population . There are breeders which wish to maintain a separate "pure" Alsation bloodline which excludes all now-available access to foreign GSD lines.

molecular genetics is what my friend is doing ---


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Visualization of Genome Diversity in German Shepherd Dogs

When breeders get this information, will they know what to do with it?

This article in the discussion also warns against selecting for specific traits.....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry, one last link. It all ties together. This one gives a more specific picture of what might be done with the information.

Genetic characterization of four native Italian shepherd dog breeds and analysis of their relationship to cosmopolitan dog breeds using microsatell... - PubMed - NCBI


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

With this type of information available and very soon very affordable, what will the near future bring?

This is complex information and needs to be tied with other determinations such as environmental(which covers a huge scope).

I was trying to envision a day in the next 5 or 10 years when a prospective aware GSD buyer wants "tests" done to assure health or if plans to breed sufficient genetic sufficiency/diversity for a match.

It would seem that at least during the next few years that a service would be needed to answer questions to the test results on both ends - on a professional level for the breeders in close conjunction with whatever program they have going and at the same time an explanatory service for the novice buyer. LOL, rest assured that the insurance companies will jump on this new tech and they will force the issue early and often. So many changes happen thru insurance company demands....

In the mean time - we get closer and closer with computers rather than an experienced "eyeball" or "hunch" on breedings, it plays out well with the livestock industry. This is the future....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the prospective buyer has wanted "tests" done for many years and most reputable breeders have incorporated these tests into their breeding programs long ago. It is nothing new at all. If genetics is playing out well in the cattle industry, have no doubt that the same is being done in the dog world with reputable breeders using the same protocols as related to dogs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I see no where this is being done with dogs yet. The data bases have not been formed/ the testing is still not quite affordable enough and the environmental partnership has not been formed all blended with breeder partnership. This is a goal. But if I'm mistaken please let me know who's doing this???? That's what I was asking for originally - what's being done at the top? 

I'm excited to read your referrals as to who is using this data at the breeder level - especially since it hasn't been gathered yet lol:grin2:

But thanks for your positive response to my thoughts and article links:grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have not given any positive responses to your thoughts as I don't find a valid foundation for them and I have not read your links. 

I do know a very successful breeder that is well versed in genetics of the cattle industry and is immensely successful, and does genetic testing on his dogs. The data bases have been formed and the testing is quite affordable and being done and used and the links have already been provided. This breeder is only one of so very many.

I can't find or refer to a breeder with _your_ breeding goals, nor would I want to as I look for so much more than that in a dog.

Some top breeders have already given you the answers, that has not been good enough for you. 

The best referral I can give to you is for you to do some research and learn what a reputable breeder is, there are many good links on this very forum. Armed with that knowledge, you might be far less confused.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> With this type of information available and very soon very affordable, what will the near future bring?
> 
> This is complex information and needs to be tied with other determinations such as environmental(which covers a huge scope).
> 
> ...




I fear those days. 
Decisions should not be in the hands of the bureaucrats .

Implications go far beyond dog breeding.

Decisions on whether to terminate a pregnancy.
Decisions on whether you are employable because your DNA test shows that you MAY have some disease process.
Insurance rates, health rates that anticipate your need for funds at some time.

We have these tick the boxes "what makes for a good breeder" many times on the forum. 
Okay , it is a start .
But it doesn't make a great breeder , or produce great dogs.

There is so much more to breeding than what the dog does not have .

Sensing more uniformity, less diversity.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It is not my desire to have any conversation. I got a lot out of this thread from Carmspack and I would like to thank her for that and I envy her lunches with her genome buddy - Looking to the near future - awesome:grin2:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Yes, there's all that on the bad side, but there's two sides. How many people's career got replaced with technology... it's really just the same story being repeated again. The Gen coming up today - the one's that will be inviting this dog into their lives for the next 12-14 years - they live in 15 minute increments anymore. I don't know where it's going to go either but even if the breeders do the best, the quality of life for the family GSD is likely to decrease unless it happens in a formalized field somewhere. 

I count myself fortunate in that I live a mix of both the new and old. No one's taking my microwave - but I have weeds in my yard and it's not immaculate. As I said in my post - I'm hoping for a blend of the Genome knowledge along with the environmental and the breeders to all get together. That seems a long way off, but with the way the new science is just dropping from trees at a suddenly very affordable rate, it seems the other two need to get into the game asap and get a partnership formed. Otherwise the wrighting is one the wall - stick to the old ways and pass stuff you don't want to...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

what was the original intent of the PDB/AKC to register DNA tests?

I've read it's just used to prove parentage in pups but was the original vision larger?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It's what the founder of the breed did and I have no doubt he wouldn't hesitate to use this technology combined with his knowledge and experience.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> what was the original intent of the PDB/AKC to register DNA tests?
> 
> I've read it's just used to prove parentage in pups but was the original vision larger?


The original purpose of the AKC DNA program was and still is to help guarantee the integrity of purebred dogs pedigrees. The AKC uses DNA testing to confirm parentage. The DNA profiles don't give any information about what breed the dog is or genetic diseases it may carry for. 

The AKC Canine Health Foundation was established to further the cause of genetic research and health but the last I knew they don't have a central database like OFA. They do work with parent clubs to help promote voluntary genetic testing along with labs and universities ( giving grants) to further genetic studies. (more involved but you get the idea)

The Pedigree Database (if that's what you meant by PDB) has no affiliation with any registry. It's an independently owned database that allows people to enter information about their dogs, but there is no verification process meaning the information on their database may or may not be accurate.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The original purpose of the AKC DNA program was and still is to help guarantee the integrity of purebred dogs pedigrees. The AKC uses DNA testing to confirm parentage. The DNA profiles don't give any information about what breed the dog is or genetic diseases it may carry for.
> 
> The AKC Canine Health Foundation was established to further the cause of genetic research and health but the last I knew they don't have a central database like OFA. They do work with parent clubs to help promote voluntary genetic testing along with labs and universities ( giving grants) to further genetic studies. (more involved but you get the idea)
> 
> The Pedigree Database (if that's what you meant by PDB) has no affiliation with any registry. It's an independently owned database that allows people to enter information about their dogs, but there is no verification process meaning the information on their database may or may not be accurate.



I researched today about the AKC role in the DNA testing and it seems what they do is spot check breeders to verify that the pups are from the sire and dam that they are advertised to be. Nothing else. They check the Sire, Dam and pup randomly and if you want a specific check, for a particular pup - that costs extra. Real big use of the DNA test lol! It will soon be so much more.
http://www.akc.org/dna/


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Other than cancers, I am not sure we are seeing more cases of terrible health issues like DM. The WWW has just brought more people together to discuss these things thus making us more informed (well, not in all cases).


Yes, in come cases - we need to open our minds and embrace where the future is taking us.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I want to apologize for my spelling the last few months. It looks good to me until sometime later. They said these type of migraines would ack as mini strokes over time. I'm trying but It's weird to me too.:|


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Real big use of the DNA test lol! It will soon be so much more.
> DNA and the AKC - American Kennel Club



An DNA Advisory Committee was appointed by the AKC in 2000. If you read through their final report you can get a better idea of where the AKC is headed (or not) in regards to DNA testing and the reasoning behind some of the committees recommendations.
Page 11 deals with DNA testing for health. If you don't read the whole report, read that section.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/dna/finalreportv7.0.090302.pdf?_ga=1.109531013.1028366375.1466902912


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks! I will do that tomorrow am.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
Other than cancers, I am not sure we are seeing more cases of terrible health issues like DM. The WWW has just brought more people together to discuss these things thus making us more informed (well, not in all cases).

StoneyV
Yes, in come cases - we need to open our minds and embrace where the future is taking us.

xxxxxxx and then there are those that are making the future !!

Agree with lhczth -- 

StoneyV -- would you embrace the idea where there may not be any "breeds" -- that the concept failed ?

The success of the future for the GSD will be secured by those that know the history , the original purpose , the original form and will breed to that with respect .

Not just "our" breed . 

All breeds .

All you have to do is look at Corgis now compared to Corgis in the 1930's when they had legs . Yes legs.
And by the way since this is a DM thread -- Corgis have high DM statistics . 

This is a link to the INDEPENDENT INQUIRY INTO DOG BREEDING authored by Patrick Bateson University of Cambridge , initiated by the 2008 BBC TV documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed - where the GSD was the frog-dog.

https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/special/final-dog-inquiry-120110.pdf 

will also put this link onto the Iceberg Breeders thread .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lhczth View Post
> Other than cancers, I am not sure we are seeing more cases of terrible health issues like DM. The WWW has just brought more people together to discuss these things thus making us more informed (well, not in all cases).
> 
> ...


Do you mean what if man wasn't able to manipulate dogs to create breeds that suit their fancy? In in other words, natural selection would create it's own breeds?

I would. I've always been drawn to dogs that are built in such a way and have the intelligence it takes to be able to survive in the wild. That opinion has stayed with me from the time I was a very short person lol. 

Agh! You guys gave me some hefty reading this morning. But thank you for the link included in your last post. I think the problems were summed up well in pages 3 & 4. 

I don't think improvements can be made without the cooperation of science and the breeders knowledge as I said, it's going to take both and this article reinforces that. It also sums up the issues that practices and desires are causing to the breeds at the expense of health.

Everyone agrees that breed standards should never be in place that cause obvious harm to health - but here you have it, the interpretation has been corrupted and no one's at the wheel to correct the course. Plus breeder acceptance to pass diseases such as DM if other favorable characteristics are there that make it "worth it". So, what is agreed on in principal is not done in practice. 

The recommendations are sound. If the judges are part of the problem - get new judges. If the breed standard is causing problems - change it and if the breeders are passing defects and inbreeding - don't register the litter. This has been available for correction for some time and nothing has been done. Certain people don't want it done _Yet all agree that their top priority is the health of the breed_

DNA/genetic research is the key and we possess it. It shouldn't be thought of as a big scarey thing that is going to take away all control from people. It is a key to knowledge, that's all. The "politics" of how to deal with the knowledge and the motivations to not want certain knowledge available because the smoke and mirrors will fall for some - that's a different story....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

???I am sorry, but I don't see anybody saying the health of the breed is their top priority. Can you link to that?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

stoneyV asked
"Do you mean what if man wasn't able to manipulate dogs to create breeds that suit their fancy? In in other words, natural selection would create it's own breeds?"

yes there would be natural selection as seen in the pariah dogs, the street dogs in every old agricultural / hunting society.

relevant to the breeding discussion -- man has created helpful dogs for a variety of purposes whether , pastoral use , moving livestock , or draught , hunting , security -- a happy and mutually beneficial relationship since time immemorial.

critically though , until recently , those dogs were bred for purpose and function , both in character , skills , and bodily form. Physical uniformity did not matter . Was the dog sound, was he competent in his work , was he hardy and rugged , and prepared to look forward to work - naturally .

that is not the case now .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> stoneyV asked
> "Do you mean what if man wasn't able to manipulate dogs to create breeds that suit their fancy? In in other words, natural selection would create it's own breeds?"
> 
> yes there would be natural selection as seen in the pariah dogs, the street dogs in every old agricultural / hunting society.
> ...


A few months ago I was reading about European lifestyles at the turn of the century. There was a period of time when the leisure class went through an extremely busy time in "changing' common things to be fancier, more attractive, show status and they had the resources to do it. The result was discussed in some of the wonderful architectural styles that came out of that era but also covered what they did with their dogs, desirable imports and creation of new breeds. These dogs did not work but were used as a status symbol. My impression from reading that is breeding of dogs for show and not work has actually been around quite a long time.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> My impression from reading that is breeding of dogs for show and not work has actually been around quite a long time.


That's true but the GSD managed to remain a true working breed longer than some breeds in spite of the harm that comes from using the conformation ring as the only test used to measure breed worthiness.... but then....things started to change and now the breed is split into more pieces than a Thanksgiving pie. 

...Which has nothing to do with DM or the value of DNA testing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> A few months ago I was reading about European lifestyles at the turn of the century. There was a period of time when the leisure class went through an extremely busy time in "changing' common things to be fancier, more attractive, show status and they had the resources to do it. The result was discussed in some of the wonderful architectural styles that came out of that era but also covered what they did with their dogs, desirable imports and creation of new breeds. These dogs did not work but were used as a status symbol. My impression from reading that is breeding of dogs for show and not work has actually been around quite a long time.


 
I am puzzled by the problem. Look at what a few years of KC recognition has done to the border collie.
You should note that the Arabian horse is the oldest pure breed of horse and they have records going back forever yet they remain hardy, resilient and long lived. Still capable of the endurance, loyalty and courage that the breed is renowned for. 
I have never understood why dog lovers allow the complete destruction of the animal in the interest of looks. Hounds of all types have been kept by the upper classes for centuries, but they hunted and only when hunting ability was proven did they become prized. What is our modern obsession with taking a dog that should work and turning it into a pretty ornament?

With genetic testing comes the ability to selectively breed for the very best, yet we have gone in entirely the opposite direction.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I am puzzled by the problem. Look at what a few years of KC recognition has done to the border collie.
> You should note that the Arabian horse is the oldest pure breed of horse and they have records going back forever yet they remain hardy, resilient and long lived. Still capable of the endurance, loyalty and courage that the breed is renowned for.
> I have never understood why dog lovers allow the complete destruction of the animal in the interest of looks. Hounds of all types have been kept by the upper classes for centuries, but they hunted and only when hunting ability was proven did they become prized. What is our modern obsession with taking a dog that should work and turning it into a pretty ornament?
> 
> With genetic testing comes the ability to selectively breed for the very best, yet we have gone in entirely the opposite direction.


If anyone gets a chance, the link that Carmspack posted gives so much insight into the issues and the opinions of the entities that have the breeds best interest at heart. 

The format of it is a thing of beauty. There is a lot of "tell" in the breeders responses in the evidence section. The impression I got was that all the respondents want what is best for a breed and it's health but have a strong resistance to many of the suggestions. Something's not right but heck - look at our Gov't - they can't agree on anything either. 

Anyway, that Link might make your eyelids bleed but it's really informative and helps explain lots of questions.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> I am puzzled by the problem. Look at what a few years of KC recognition has done to the border collie.
> You should note that the Arabian horse is the oldest pure breed of horse and they have records going back forever yet they remain hardy, resilient and long lived. Still capable of the endurance, loyalty and courage that the breed is renowned for.
> I have never understood why dog lovers allow the complete destruction of the animal in the interest of looks. Hounds of all types have been kept by the upper classes for centuries, but they hunted and only when hunting ability was proven did they become prized. What is our modern obsession with taking a dog that should work and turning it into a pretty ornament?
> 
> With genetic testing comes the ability to selectively breed for the very best, yet we have gone in entirely the opposite direction.


I think a lot of it also has to do with money, plain and simple. 
Like for Arabians. If you tried to sell an Arabian that was just "pretty" but couldn't be ridden, wasn't healthy and only lived 5-6 years, where would you find a buyer? Oh you would likely eventually find someone if you priced them low enough. And horses don't exactly multiply as quickly as dogs.
You have buyers who will pay a couple hundred for an old nag to shove in a small paddock and say "Yeah! We bought a horse for the kids!" but they aren't going to pay $3000-4000+ that many "low end" horses cost.
They have plenty of stock auction nags that they can get for pennies on the dollar.

Compare to the dog market. We still are largely influenced by what sells. And, if you are breeding in conformation, what sells is what wins. And what wins is often the type that is most frequently seen. It's often a cycle. 
Plus, when it comes to the public, what sells is what they want to hear. If you can make it sound good and the price is right, you have no limit of buyers who will line up to put money down. And of course many of those people are going to be excited to breed their dog and make some $$ of their own.

My point being, in the end it comes down to the market. Few horse buyers don't do at least some portion of research. Few dog buyers do any research at all.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> Few dog buyers do any research at all.


I find this to be the biggest problem of all. Yet those very same people are the ones pointing the finger at reputable breeders.

I find no shortage of breeders who are doing health checks. I find no shortage of breeders breeding for the whole package. I would not buy a dog from a breeder that placed too high of a priority on health at the cost of the total package any more than I would buy a dog from a breeder that breeds for size or color. If the buyer did their due diligence, then maybe more breeders who don't health test would feel the pressure to do so.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

genome basics 101 - audio - Ted Talks presentation

https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schuler_genomics_101?language=en


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