# Breaking the whining game



## ViciousXUSMC (Feb 2, 2015)

Well checking in...

The crate training issue is getting a lot better.

Nova is really good in the crate during the day, when my other half or my friend comes over to take her out to walk and leaves she may throw a fit for say 10 minutes or less before she calms down and relaxes.

Night time was much much harder and we are still working on it, I have her in the crate sleeping in the other room. I get her pretty tired and put her in the crate about an hour before we go to bed so that she has time to settle while we are still in the room.

She will wake up a couple of hours later for the bathroom, and a few other times during the night about every 3 hours or so. 

She always throws a fit when I walk back into the bedroom, I say on average about 15 minutes to 20 minutes before she will calm. But on occasion she just decides that she is not going to calm and will go on and on, getting too loud for me to leave her alone. So I do not let her out of the crate or give her attention but I may put myself in the room until she falls back asleep.

But while a patient guy I see "waiting it out" is not working so I started to read around and just a "no" or "quiet" is not enough so I may have to correct her a little more like an alpha might. I tried last night and it didn't really work either and honestly I think the attention even if its not letting her out of the crate is still attention she would want because she knows if she keeps it up daddy will come yell at her at some point :/

We have a new gate to block her from the cat area, and she was going crazy this morning while getting ready for work whenever I am over the gate. So pretty much she is throwing fits whenever I am away and she can't get to me, it does not have to be the crate. 

I want to see if anybody has some recommendations of how to break her of this in a proper way. I am sure its just time more than anything that is needed but I definitely want to make sure I atleast asked/tried to find the best way and incorporate it.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Maybe try putting the crate in your room next to your bed and whenever she starts whining, just stick your finger in the crate and she should go back to sleep. I did this with Troy for the first week then I put his cage in a different room. He does perfectly fine now, only whines for a minute or so.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

How frustratingHave you tried a Kong filled with her favorite treat,preferably frozen so it lasts a long time?This would be something she only gets in the crate.You probably know this already,but don't acknowledge her when she's whining,wait for a pause in the noise.Hope she settles down soon so you can get some sleep.


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## ViciousXUSMC (Feb 2, 2015)

I have a kong for her but she has not learned yet how to use it, even with loose kibble in it she has not gotten it out. 

When she is in her crate she pretty much cares not for things like that, even her favorite bully stick just sits there in the crate.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Hmm, just re-read that I just skimmed through it the first time. You just need to ignore her cries, tough love. What I did was use earplugs! Haha, those were my best friend for the first few weeks. Make the crate a happy place  Give her treats when she goes inside, do all feedings in the crate, teach her to go into the crate on command (just taught Troy that) have 'crate only' toys etc. Make the crate full of happy surprises. Just keep a routine going and she will eventually get used to it. When she starts whining, I wouldn't say anything to her like "no" or "quite" that just teaches her that you will give her attention that way which is NOT what you want.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I always took care of this issue with an e collar. I'd sit out of sight of the dog and the instant it started to whine I would mark with a no and then stim the dog at a level just high enough to get the dog to stop. After a few seconds of silence Id tell the dog good in a slow soothing way. If the dog was quiet for a while I let the dog out or give treats through the crate door. 

At some point after I am sure the dog knows exactly what they're being stimmed for I generally up the stim level to a punishment level stim and that usually ends the issue fairly quickly.

If you go this route you need to stay consistent and if you're not able to be around you might want to consider a bark collar so the dog doesn't learn to just go nuts when you're not around.

They condition to chilling out in the crate. There's always someone who just assumes punishing a dog correctly in the crate for barking or whining will make them hate the crate but they are clueless about dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

On a 9 week old puppy, Baillif??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup low stim won't harm a puppy in a crate. It won't freak em out or melt them or ruin them forever. That crap is a myth.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Yup low stim won't harm a puppy in a crate. It won't freak em out or melt them or ruin them forever. That crap is a myth.


You do run a risk outside the crate of creating superstitions but inside the crate it is extremely minimal at lower stim with a behavior like whining. I never worry about that kind of thing because I see it and just show the dog whatever they've misunderstood is not the case and it's over.

The crate is as close to a Skinner box as you get in dog training. Makes pinning down problem behaviors super easy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I always took care of this issue with an e collar. I'd sit out of sight of the dog and the instant it started to whine I would mark with a no and then stim the dog at a level just high enough to get the dog to stop. After a few seconds of silence Id tell the dog good in a slow soothing way. If the dog was quiet for a while I let the dog out or give treats through the crate door.
> 
> At some point after I am sure the dog knows exactly what they're being stimmed for I generally up the stim level to a punishment level stim and that usually ends the issue fairly quickly.
> 
> ...


Baillif, question as a regular "pet person" which for me means...time is "not" a factor, I would train the *"Place Command"* and do the *"Sit on Dog"* thing if "I" had this problem.

Your thoughts on that approach??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Time is always a factor. You don't want a dog to continue to practice undesirable behavior or emotional states. The longer they practice them the harder they are to de condition.

Also teaching a place command or sitting on the dog is teaching them to be in a place where they can't leave but it isn't teaching them not to whine. They can whine in place or while you're sitting on the dog. High drive dogs tend to be especially bad about that. Place or sitting on the dog isn't even an incompatible behavior (doing one behavior doesn't keep them from doing the other behavior).

Also it's two different pictures. One is in the crate the other is outside of the crate. Don't get me wrong, I like both those exercises and I do use them, but the bleed over from one picture into the other is minimal at best, meaning teaching a place or sitting on the dog isn't likely to aid in crate behavior. It couldn't hurt. But you're not likely to see much benefit. Not saying it couldn't happen because conditioning calmness is great, but not likely to help because the pictures are just too different.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Baillif said:


> I always took care of this issue with an e collar.


Yeah, gotta disagree with using a e collar on a 9 week old pup.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Stress level/Emotional discomfort of puppy freaking out in crate > Stress of Deconditioning it properly with ecollar. You haven't done it. You don't know. So disagree if you want but you don't know.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree, I don't know, because I've never had to resort to an e collar on a 9 week old puppy. Just sayin', don't agree with you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Time is always a factor. You don't want a dog to continue to practice undesirable behavior or emotional states. The longer they practice them the harder they are to de condition.
> 
> Also teaching a place command or sitting on the dog is teaching them to be in a place where they can't leave but it isn't teaching them not to whine. They can whine in place or while you're sitting on the dog. High drive dogs tend to be especially bad about that. Place or sitting on the dog isn't even an incompatible behavior (doing one behavior doesn't keep them from doing the other behavior).


 I do know it's not good for a dog to spend a lot of time "practicing" a negative behaviour. 

I've never experienced a "whiner" before, I tended to think,training one thing would stop the other...not necessarily! I undesrstand your point, thanks for sharing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> You do run a risk outside the crate of creating superstitions but inside the crate it is extremely minimal at lower stim with a behavior like whining. I never worry about that kind of thing because I see it and just show the dog whatever they've misunderstood is not the case and it's over.
> 
> The crate is as close to a Skinner box as you get in dog training. Makes pinning down problem behaviors super easy.


Interesting. Do you find this method helpful with high anxiety? We had a Boxer that broke her teeth on the crate. Total frenzy as a puppy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Kind of funny you mention that because yes you can. It can be tricky to pin down if it is a behavior like panting or something like that, but you can.

It sounds counter intuitive to someone when you say you can punish away anxiety because it would seem like the punishment would make the dog more anxious but if you eliminate the behaviors where the dog expresses anxiety the actual anxiety fades to nothing and calmness is what conditions. 

In a similar way to how if you were feeling down if you forced as genuine a smile as you could muster your mood would improve, the body and what the body is doing changes the emotional and mental state of the organism. This is much more pronounced in dogs than it is in humans. Elimination of operant behaviors can ease classical/emotional behaviors.

I've seen a dog positive reinforced into depression, and a dog punished into being more happy. It is doable. Sounds super strange but it is very very doable.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bella67 said:


> Maybe try putting the crate in your room next to your bed and whenever she starts whining, just stick your finger in the crate and she should go back to sleep. I did this with Troy for the first week then I put his cage in a different room. He does perfectly fine now, only whines for a minute or so.


This has always worked for me. It's also worked for numerous people who have come on the board with the exact same question, many of whom were adamant about NOT having the puppy in the bedroom, for whatever reason. When they finally relented and gave it a try, the problem was usually solved within a few days. 

She's in a new home, removed from her mom and littermates, and stuck alone in a room by herself. Being close to you at night will likely help comfort her so she settles down and sleeps. My dogs are 9-1/2 and 6, and they still sleep in crates in our room at night.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> Kind of funny you mention that because yes you can. It can be tricky to pin down if it is a behavior like panting or something like that, but you can.
> 
> It sounds counter intuitive to someone when you say you can punish away anxiety because it would seem like the punishment would make the dog more anxious but if you eliminate the behaviors where the dog expresses anxiety the actual anxiety fades to nothing and calmness is what conditions.
> 
> ...


I don't find that odd at all. One of the reasons I don't say a word when I give a correction is I don't want my emotions added to the correction. I correct and then instantly respond in a positive manner towards my dogs. 

I would imagine that using an e-collar for a dog with high anxiety in this way would be a huge plus as those dogs definitely feed off the owners emotions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But what if it doesn't work? What do you do if it just escalates it? I agree completely that sometimes its best to stop it, but as far as the ecollar on a 9wk old, whats the plan if it doesn't work?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I prefer to play Crate Games with my puppies and teach them the crate is a good place over correction at that age, all things equal.


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## ViciousXUSMC (Feb 2, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This has always worked for me. It's also worked for numerous people who have come on the board with the exact same question, many of whom were adamant about NOT having the puppy in the bedroom, for whatever reason. When they finally relented and gave it a try, the problem was usually solved within a few days.
> 
> She's in a new home, removed from her mom and littermates, and stuck alone in a room by herself. Being close to you at night will likely help comfort her so she settles down and sleeps. My dogs are 9-1/2 and 6, and they still sleep in crates in our room at night.


I have two options here.

If I can fit/move her crate into the bedroom (not sure it will fit) that would be ok for night, but what about day when she can normally go in there to eat/drink and be around us in the living space. 

It would be too much to move it back and forth so that brings option #2.
I have a 2nd crate, its also very large (42 instead of 48) but at least I could leave it in the room, but my fear here is disassociating her crate as "her place" if she has two places and one day I need her to sleep in the other crate I am affraid she would be out of place and used to having 2 crates. 

We are making progress for sure, she is already a lot better than she was so I think I can finish off her training in the other room rather than backtrack to haviner her be next to us in the room.

I honestly would probably be more prone to sleep in the living space next to her crate, so then she can get used to me being gone rather than her entire crate moving when time comes to "wing" her off.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> But what if it doesn't work? What do you do if it just escalates it? I agree completely that sometimes its best to stop it, but as far as the ecollar on a 9wk old, whats the plan if it doesn't work?


If it doesn't work or you see a strengthening of behavior you obviously stop and reexamine what is going on because either you are doing something wrong or there are other factors at play that have to be considered. I have never had issue with going that route though.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But how many people have brought in 9wk old puppies for you to put an ecollar on?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> But how many people have brought in 9wk old puppies for you to put an ecollar on?


The "truly" overwhelmed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ViciousXUSMC said:


> I have two options here.
> 
> If I can fit/move her crate into the bedroom (not sure it will fit) that would be ok for night, but what about day when she can normally go in there to eat/drink and be around us in the living space.
> 
> ...


I think once she's got the whole crate concept down it really shouldn't matter, she should be able to generalize among more than one crate. I have a smaller crate that goes next to the bed for puppies, (I think it's the intermediate size Vari Kennel) and when they outgrow it there's a larger crate across the room that they get moved into. But I've used an even smaller crate for the last two, who were shipped. I used their shipping crates next to the bed and in the car until they outgrew them, and then sent them back to the breeder. 

And Halo is in her soft crate at flyball practice every weekend. It's totally different than the plastic crate she sleeps in at home (and occasionally goes in for naps during the day, with the door open), but to her it's just a crate. She's in it at tournaments, and hotel rooms when we travel out of town.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think once she's got the whole crate concept down it really shouldn't matter, she should be able to generalize among more than one crate.


I agree - my dogs each have their own crate, but I can request them to switch out if it's required. It also doesn't matter if that crate is in the living room, in a hotel room or in the back of my truck bed. They are still quiet and comfortable.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> But how many people have brought in 9wk old puppies for you to put an ecollar on?


Plenty. The ecollar ones turn out a lot nicer than the ones without or the ones that were done just with food or the ones with other forms of correction.

One of these days I might show a video of a 9 week old puppy learning a happy place stay in 15 minutes at a level most people couldn't get with an adult.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've moved my dogs to crates in different rooms.I move their bedding also,so the crate is different but the blanket they sleep on is the same so it smells and feels the same.Never had issues.


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## ViciousXUSMC (Feb 2, 2015)

I think Nova has gotten the hang of things now. 
Huge improvement with no real change to the routine, and to help bolster I have spent some time with her in the crate playing/petting with the door open but not letting her out and also closed the door during the day while I do things around the house.

For the first time she actually went in on her own accord and took a nap with the door open, that was a big sign of success for me.


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## phps01 (Jan 22, 2015)

to the OP, 

I have a crate in both the living room and the bedroom, and when he whined i used to say in a soothing voice-"go to sleep" & " i am here" like a lullaby a couple of times. For the first week home, this was every 2-3 hours in the night...when he quietened he got a "good boy".....the whining eventually stopped within 2-3 weeks. My boy is now 2 years old and if i say "go to sleep"" i am here" now...you can see his eyes dropping and he will eventually fall asleep....it is all in your tone ..hope this helps.

to your other point, when i leave for work, i am usually calm and do not look at him..i ask him to go to his crate , drop a few treats and say- "find your treats, go to sleep, i will be back"...again all in a very low normal tone, not high pitched. Now he is free in the house, but for 1.5 years, he was crated....he tore up the carpet when i tried leaving him free @1yr.

phps01


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