# genetics of herding



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this thread started by ms Blackthorn asking " Would love to know of any dogs carrying Tarbes. 

You seem to most often get Bert v Haus Knufken from Arthus who was 5-3 on Bert. And Arthus is definitely a significant force in today's working lines -- you have quite a few big names going back to him -- "

The answer is I do . Carmspack Joker Carmspack Joker - German Shepherd Dog -- note that Joker's dam Binga also has Bert Haus Knufken through her sire Urban Hopfenstrasse .
Joker was a breeze to train. We were building our horse paddocks at the time , digging post holes that kept filling up with water - days and days of rain . So , to keep my young son Jared occupied I had him "train" Joker on the sidelines to keep him in view and busy , the boy, not the dog . My son was around 10 years or so and he trained the dog with nothing more than a shoe lace from a hockey skate . 
so to follow pedigree building conserving herding genetics I bred this Joker to Carmspack Ivana Carmspack Ivana - German Shepherd Dog
The Kilo side of the pedigree brings in Pirol Kirschental through Racker , goes back to Claudius Hain and Centa Busecker Schloss through Zita , Illo and Centa Mummelsee, and Sybille and Knolle v d Hain . On the dam's side we bring in Bert Knufken again Pirol again through Peggy Korbelbach , and Centa Busecker Schloss and Marko Cellerland through Askia Froschgraben, and the good resource coming from Uwe Kirschental's dam 
Fenga .
Next generation I select Vyck Antverpa Jaymars Power of Carmspack - German Shepherd Dog Vyck brings in herding again through Ora Karthago going back to the herding Busecker Schloss lines and through Sam Bensch and especially Gibsy alten Wassermuhle's Pushka Haus Himpel going to Norbert von Fasanental .
next generation - Carmspack Case and Rachel mothers and grand dams to several service dogs including bomb (Silva) -- herding once again through Busecker Schloss Carmspack Case - German Shepherd Dog
next generation Carmspack Claudia - German Shepherd Dog (Claudia , Silva , Mon Ami , Bella etc) ] Silva - cert bomb dog, Mon Ami dam of 2 SWAT dogs, Bella cert narc dog. ) Bringing in Winni Geiersnest who carries Bert haus Knufken, the Pushka Haus Himpel lines , Enno Beilstein, Uran Kirschental , 

next generation -- already have plans - of course bringing in herding lines

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

This female has a lot of herding titles--

*HTCH, SG Gidget Tjuya vom Adelhertz - CGC, THD (TDI), BH, STDds OTDs *
 *HXAMS HSAD HIBS HXC HRD3 HTD3 HTAD3 RLF3 F-RLFX3* 
HTCH, SG Gidget Tjuya vom Adelhertz - CGC, THD (TDI), BH, STDds OTDs - German Shepherd Dog

She was recently bred to another herding dog--closely related, actually:

*Hikita Vom Insel* 
 *HRDIS/GE,HTDIS,RLFIIIS,HIASD,HXCS,AD,CGC
*http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=632941


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm confused, a bit, Carmen--is Joker still alive/breeding? Are you breeding Claudia to Joker? Oh, I see--Claudia is your female going back to Joker along the female line.

(It's late, I should go to bed!)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lord Gleisdreieck , Hetty Schwedenschanzen http://www.vonlordfandor.de/hetty.html


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Carmen - I'd love to hear your take on Kessy's pedigree one of these days 

For those that are not familiar with her - she is an HGH dog that has proven to be an outstanding tending dog...she's been tested in every situation and has always excelled. I could lay down in the graze for a nap for 3 hours and I know she would keep the sheep where they need to be. She's moved the flock across a busy highway and was more than willing to take on a 250 lb ram when he decided to challenge her. It just kills me that I wasn't able to get any puppies out of her  

Kira, my younger girl (co-owned with Lee), has also shown great instincts from a young age. She hasn't been truly tested yet, or put into challenging situations (due to her age), but so far, as Geary said, you'd think she comes from pure unbroken herding lines - she has so much instinct. Her dam and granddam also showed great herding instincts.

Kira is a cocky little thing, she has been from a very young age, I don't think much will be able to phase her!!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This was one of my early attractions to the first DDR dogs that were made available to the outside world. There was a wealth of herding blood that was being made available. Dogs like Held v Ritterberd, Lord v Gleisdreick, Ingo v Rudigan, ex v Reidstern, Ali Granert, were all sires that had rich resources that go back to herding dogs from the past.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Some of the American lines seem to do well in herding. Every dog that I have taken to be tested (12-15) have shown instinct, but they also showed differing levels of drive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have to applaud you Andaka for taking your dogs out there to see what they have to offer. You could add some German lines as was done in the pedigree of Linda Shaw's "Timmy" , good solid "canadian/american show line to west German/DDR strong herding heritage Kilo. Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs . Genetically though the herding is hard to find -- and yet Covy Tucker Hills Angelique did have a line to Gauss Stauderpark (Valet Busecker Schloss) . Predominantly breeding selection was on Hein Richterbach.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

adding Vito Waldwinkel (if I have not already included hime) V Vito vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My yougest dog does incorporate some DDR in him.

Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog

But I haven't taken the time to try him on sheep yet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I see that -- keep adding dogs with Bernd Lierberg and in particular Puska Haus Himpel. 
You have to know the DDR lines because if you don't and just select "ddr" you can get what you don't want and that is sharp dogs - there has to be an anchor for stability .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just have to repeat this thread - so much excellent information contained in it http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/herding/155584-hgh-training-progress-videos-start.html

phgsd can you check your PMs from me because I did spend the time and did provide you with a complete breakdown of Kessy's herding heritage -- which is A LOT ! and from different old herding lines being brought together - which is better than just repeating on one . Brings in the nuances and personal touches of different herding breeders . I had a field day going through her background ! You are lucky to have Kessy and Kira . Both look like they could be nicely at home in my own back yard.
If you can't find it I will redo it but when I have the time to concentrate .


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

phgsd said:


> Carmen - I'd love to hear your take on Kessy's pedigree one of these days
> 
> For those that are not familiar with her - she is an HGH dog that has proven to be an outstanding tending dog...she's been tested in every situation and has always excelled. I could lay down in the graze for a nap for 3 hours and I know she would keep the sheep where they need to be. She's moved the flock across a busy highway and was more than willing to take on a 250 lb ram when he decided to challenge her. It just kills me that I wasn't able to get any puppies out of her


Kessy did influence my decision to breed Jubilee to a Vox son. 

Blackthorn's Riddle - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ms Blackthorn I hope you don't mind my using a reply to someone else back in 2002 - 

"
The litter I had from Tarbes was Tarbes (obviously) and Binga Kuhnhof who was from Urban Hopfenstrasse,
and Xira Kuhnhof which was Brix Laimbachtal to Dieda Kuhnhof a Gildo Korbelbach daughter.

I have a male from that litter which I have access to for stud. I have taken advantage of him twice, each
time taking him to females combining the Boris that Brix had, and on the other the Boris that Fero Zeuterner Himmelreich
had AND the Uwe Kirschental that the former bitch had through Asko Schloss Zweibruggen's Asko Joufne Keyleff,
and Uwe Kirschental through Andy Bildsaule on the second female.

The one litter produced a single male pup. He was sold to a schutzhund person who was offered $3,500 US at 4
months so of course he sold the dog. 

The other litter produced a dog which is with a Canadian police dept and made the papers often . I have seen his
handler's dossier on the dog's career. In fact I recently placed another dog with the same dept.
Both litters were "street" oriented  same as another person said that  her Tarbes dogs tended to be.
If you look at the Red covered Dog Calendar put out by Brown Trout, photographed by Mark Raycroft, the cover
dog, the first sable to be used commercially you will see a Tarbes grandson. That dog is Argos , a son of my Kilo
and my Link who was a daughter of Tarbes and Binga. How does he work. Well he was with a club I belonged to
that did Ring. Unlike Schutzhund the decoy does not stand and catch the dog, he escapes it, which adds to the
challenge in the fight. This dog would rocket down the field eye the decoy who is moving out of the way, adjust to
the change in a split second, slid in on his left shoulder a good 4 feet and a the last moment pop up, and knock
the decoy off his feet like a bowling ball and pin. A repeat of this combination was made and one of the males,
Irie, went to a detention center where the law would send troubled youth for last chance rehabilitation. This was
in a very remote, wooded area. The dog
was class room deterent, did late night cabin patrol check up and was family guardian. One day while coming up
the long drive way , the dog leaps out of the window of a moving car since he has spied one of the "customers" 
bothering the owners kids who were playing among the pine in the snow. The dog darted in got the offender and
then the young kids around 8 years of age could control the dog till dad got there.
Part of the purpose of Tarbes was as a representative of the U litter Kirschental. This was before the time of sperm
storage that we have available now. Joe was fierce in his understanding pedigrees and his logical application.
Tarbes was from the last breeding that Uran Kirschental had. I don't know where else there was a living member of that
dynasty in that year. The purpose was to conserve , as in a museum, bloodlines of past value so that they could
be refreshed. Tarbes also had Marko Cellerland twice. Once through Mark Abtei - Eck, and once through the great
and beautiful Kai Silberbrand. 
That was the dogs purpose.

and another "
One of the reasons Joe liked Tarbes was because he contained himself. He had all this drive
and power yet was "quiet" or "calm". Joe had said he loved him because of his natural aggression,
his natural hardness. Nothing had to be done to bring it out. The dog was presented with a situation
and it emerged, correctly and with convinction , no fooling around or need for an education.
Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the burg Fasanental herding line that runs through several DDR (Pushka haus Himpel) also runs through the Frei vd Gugge in addition to serious herding contribution from Claudius Hain -- follow Cherusker von Burg Fasanental - German Shepherd Dog keep going back through the years to see this line. 

here you see Edo http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2057 (Frei Gugge pedigree) and you can see Claudius von Hain - see the intensity of herding female stock through Knolle, then again through female Loni Maschtor - Burg Fasanental , then again through the female Kundry bringing in Blasienburg herding dogs.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I just realized that Donn v Dreidorfereck, a dog who is in the 4th generation of my first workingline GSD, is another dog who brings forward Bert vh Knufken--and Frei, and Bernd. 

5 geneneration pedigree for V Donn vom Dreidörfereck - German Shepherd Dog

You will still see him in working dog pedigrees, back a few generations--not as common a name as some others, though. My female goes to him through Xita v Entzal--daughter of an HGH female (Sara Kirschental x Sagus v Busecker Schloss): 
Xita vom Enztal - German Shepherd Dog

So maybe that's a big source of the herding instinct that I've found. Although, the female I had (Frostbite) was too unclear in her drive and couldn't stop screaming while herding, so we didn't very far with it. Have done much better a few generations down--breeding for more clarity while not losing drive or intelligence or desire to work.


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## SchlesienGSD (Oct 13, 2012)

*Herding GSD with true Courage*

A pup ......... from this dam on Halloween weekend herding trial 2015 :groovy:


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## SchlesienGSD (Oct 13, 2012)

Need to post thre times before hyperlink is allowed


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## SchlesienGSD (Oct 13, 2012)

Third posting


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## SchlesienGSD (Oct 13, 2012)

*Herding GSD with true Courage*

Pup from this dam--- herding at Halloween Trial 2015- 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/65846-schlesiengsd-albums21698-herding-gsd.html

:dogsledding:






BlackthornGSD said:


> This female has a lot of herding titles--
> 
> *HTCH, SG Gidget Tjuya vom Adelhertz - CGC, THD (TDI), BH, STDds OTDs *
> *HXAMS HSAD HIBS HXC HRD3 HTD3 HTAD3 RLF3 F-RLFX3*
> ...


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Cools dogs and pictures!

The outcome of the mating would look like this:
Litter from Hikita Vom Insel and Gidget Tjuya vom Adelhertz

*3 - 3,4**Mara vom Preußenstein

*
*3 - 3**G JKC 76/99 Magbert vom Blitzen Stein*


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