# Dog fight = dead dog



## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

Hello, 

I have a story to tell. I would welcome advice. I am a complete dog person (aren't we all?) and have owned a few, but this is my first GSD.

Rex is a beautiful animal, 18 months, and you couldn't ask for a better dog around people. Usually he gets along fine with other dogs, with the exception of males who have not been neutered. Rex was neutered last Saturday.

Last Wednesday, we had four extra boys over for a birthday party, so there were 5 out in the front field on the trampolines (we live on 27 acres). The neighbor's beagle came over, and about the time he got to the fence line Rex hit him at about 30 miles per hour and tore him up in the next several minutes. I was 20 miles away and could do nothing to stop it. The kids yelled at him to stop, like that would work. We are talking about males 15 and 16 years old. They didn't do anything. So Rex chewed poor Jack to the point of several hundred dollars of vet bills and today he died from his injuries.

Apparently Rex went ballistic. I know this happened once before but the neighbor grabbed Rex by his collar and yanked him and he stopped. I don't know what problem these two dogs had and I never thought this would happen, and now the kids are sort of scared of Rex 'cause he turned into a complete snarling wolf-like being trying to kill an animal.

So, can Rex ever be trusted? This has never happened before. Some other dogs used to bother him but they don't come around any more 'cause Rex is too big to mess with. There are a lot of dogs running loose around here: pets, people drop dogs off 'cause they don't want them, etc. Rex is usually in a two acre fenced in area, on a leash, or a chain by the house, unless we are outside with him.

I know Rex has an extraordinary prey drive. We have to watch him around other animals like ducks. He will kill ground hogs, opossums or anything he can get his mouth on. But doesn't really bother the cats. 

Was this a one time thing or wassup with this dog? He is definitely Alpha, but will neutering him help? My wife left me with no choice on the neutering; that or he was GONE. I thought about having a female and puppies but not any more. I think he would have made a fantastic working dog with his instincts, but we don't need that in a pet. He is 93 pounds of adoring pet most of the time.

Thanks guys,

Donnie


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

lookin71 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a story to tell. I would welcome advice. I am a complete dog person (aren't we all?) and have owned a few, but this is my first GSD.
> 
> ...


Keeping a dog tied up can mess them up psychologically. They can't move much, which means they can't run, so they can feel cornered and trapped. Take away the flight option and all you have is fight. If I wanted to make a dog mean and unstable, I'd chain them up a lot. Might have been a contributing factor.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

No - Rex can and should never be trusted around other dogs ever again. He always needs to be supervised. Once is a mistake, second time is completely your fault. 

If you let him roam like this, he will do this again given the opportunity. I'll guarantee it.

And don't blame this on prey drive, being an alpha, and neutering. This is behavioral. It's up to you now to make sure it never happens again.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

You said it had never happened before, but then another paragraph down, you said it had occured one other time. ? Confused.

Can he be trusted? No. I'd say most certainly NOT. EVER. AGAIN. 

What a sad story.

I am tired.


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## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

"And don't blame this on prey drive, being an alpha, and neutering."

Hey Paul,

I honestly don't want to blame it on anything, I have NO idea what is up with Rex. I have owned, as an adult, three labs who were awesome pets and I don't recall them ever getting in a fight with other dogs. Rex will likely never be unsupervised around dogs or other animals again; I just don't understand this particular "behavior". 

What makes a dog do this? What kinda frigging behavior makes a dog attack another dog like this?

Are people safe around him? We think so, but is this just a behavior with other dogs or do I need to worry about people as well?


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## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

chelle said:


> You said it had never happened before, but then another paragraph down, you said it had occured one other time. ? Confused.
> 
> Can he be trusted? No. I'd say most certainly NOT. EVER. AGAIN.
> 
> ...


 
As far as it happening before, all I know is the neighbor said Rex and Jack got into it. They really didn't elaborate. I have seen their Husky and Jack get into it, but it didn't amount to anything at all. I don't think, at that time, Rex had time to do much because Ronnie was out there at the time and stopped it. They never said he was trying to kill Jack, and that was months ago and never another problem till last week.

I know, our fault. I just thought it was over food or something on the back porch.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I can't help you much, but I'm also curious what makes a dog kill another dog. I've never had one that did, either. I do have a friend with a Siberian Husky that she has had to keep away from other dogs it's entire life. It's a good companion to her, doesn't even bother her cat, but it will go for another dog if it's given the chance (which she makes sure it doesn't).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Dog aggression and human aggression are two completely different things. Dogs don't look at other dogs the same way they look at humans. If the dog has never shown any kinds of aggression (and that includes growling) towards a human than I wouldn't worry too much. If you're not sure, ALWAYS supervise. You know your dog better than me.

As for what makes a dog attack another dog... I really couldn't tell you for sure. Every dog and situation is different. Some dogs are just hardwired that way through it's genetics and some dogs just have bad experiences with other dogs to cause that aggression or fear. Nature vs. Nurture. 

Regardless and like I mentioned in my first post, after this, do not allow him to roam unsupervised or without adult supervision ever again. He did it once to a dog, so he'll more than likely do it again.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

lookin71 said:


> Usually he gets along fine with other dogs, with the exception of males who have not been neutered. Rex was neutered last Saturday.
> 
> ...The neighbor's beagle came over, and about the time he got to the fence line Rex hit him at about 30 miles per hour and tore him up in the next several minutes.


So the dog, whom you know isn't good with other dogs, nor has an absolute PERFECT recall, was let out to roam around during a 'party' (where no one is truly 'watching' him)? When you KNOW there are other dogs roaming around freely, as stated later in your post?



lookin71 said:


> I was *20 miles away* and could do nothing to stop it.


????



lookin71 said:


> The kids yelled at him to stop, like that would work.


From the sound of it, it was known he doesn't have a reliable recall. By reliable recall, I mean the dog can be called off of anything and come back to you - whether it be a cat, little green aliens, or another dog. 



lookin71 said:


> We are talking about males 15 and 16 years old. They didn't do anything.


Was it truly their responsibility to do anything about it? Were they supposed to run to the fight/mauling to pry Rex off of the beagle, in which would have likely gotten one of them bitten?



lookin71 said:


> Apparently Rex went ballistic. I know *this happened once before* but the *neighbor *grabbed Rex by his collar and yanked him and he stopped.


Where were _you _when this happened, and why weren't you the one who got your dog off? 



lookin71 said:


> I don't know what problem these two dogs had and _I never thought this would happen._


How can you possibly say that, after you just said that your dog attacked the beagle once before? 



lookin71 said:


> So, can Rex ever be trusted? This has never happened before.


This part I'm not entirely sure about, but he can be managed. Practice NILIF (nothing in life is free) religiously. Try and get him into some obedience classes. Do NOT let him off lead outside unless he has a PERFECT recall!



lookin71 said:


> There are a lot of dogs running loose around here: pets, people drop dogs off 'cause they don't want them, etc. *Rex is usually in a two acre fenced in area, on a leash, or a chain by the house*, unless we are outside with him.


This right here sounds like it could have been a factor in why your dog dislikes other dogs, particularly intact males. He gets 2 acres all to himself. He may feel the need to protect HIS territory. If another male comes onto 'his' land, he sees it as an intrusion. 



lookin71 said:


> I know Rex has an extraordinary prey drive. We have to watch him around other animals like ducks. He will kill ground hogs, opossums or anything he can get his mouth on.


Again, he needs a reliable recall. What if he decides to attack a rabid raccoon, or an animal with some type of disease that he could catch? 



lookin71 said:


> Was this a one time thing or wassup with this dog?


It will continue if you don't train him. It's not the dog's fault - it's yours. I'm going to assume he had little socialization as a pup, not to mention he's outside in a yard to call his own or on a chain. 



lookin71 said:


> He is definitely Alpha, but will neutering him help? My wife left me with no choice on the neutering; that or he was GONE.


Why did she demand the dog be neutered? And why is he alpha? I don't usually believe in the alpha things, but he should not be allowed to think that he is in control. YOU should be the one controlling everything. 




lookin71 said:


> I thought about having a female and puppies but not any more.


Good, thank you for changing your mind. 



lookin71 said:


> I think he would have made a fantastic working dog with his instincts, but we don't need that in a pet.


Unfortunately, the fact is - he IS a working dog. A breed that was bred to work a strenuous job all day long and be close to their handler. If he's outside all the time, he can't be close to his family, which isn't the ideal situation for a GSD.



lookin71 said:


> He is 93 pounds of adoring pet most of the time.


Adoring pet or lawn ornament?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

lookin71 said:


> ...Rex will *likely never be* unsupervised around dogs or other animals again;...


I can't address your other questions, but that he will "*likely never be*" unsupervised around dogs isn't good enough. Your dog has mauled and killed another dog. Please don't downplay how incredibly serious that is. Leaving this dog in the care of teen males is not supervised. 

Are your neighbors going to sue you? I know this is not nice, but I would sue you. You're coming across as rather nonchalant about this issue, but maybe that is just the "tone" of words on a forum. 

I'm assuming, by your post alone, that you don't really know *what* your dog is doing, when and where. That is inexcusable. Contain your dog.


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## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> So the dog, whom you know isn't good with other dogs, nor has an absolute PERFECT recall, was let out to roam around during a 'party' (where no one is truly 'watching' him)? When you KNOW there are other dogs roaming around freely, as stated later in your post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*removed by moderator*


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

lookin71 said:


> "And don't blame this on prey drive, being an alpha, and neutering."
> 
> Hey Paul,
> 
> ...


'What's up' with Rex is the lack of training and lack of confinement. 

He's not a lab. Those dogs are bred to be happy, friendly, bouncing, love-everyone-and-everything kind of dogs. Comparing a lab to a GSD, temperament wise, is like apples and oranges.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lookin71 said:


> *removed by moderator*


Just a heads up, but it may seem like she's trying to make you feel guilty, but there's actually some pretty good advice in there. About knowing where your dog is at all times and containing him, NILIF training, a good recall, and all that. Just something to keep in mind.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

lookin71 said:


> *removed by moderator*


Wow, ok. Your dog has killed another dog and your response to a poster, starts out with "LMAO."

And this "someone like you" would show up.? Double wow.

Then to top it off, you call her "nimrod." Triple wow.

You don't need this forum then. I'll be the way bitch of the forum, since I'm already tired and grumpy and you just hit my last nerve. 

You're irresponsible. You aren't doing things right. Get over it and get on with it and contain this dog. *You want to laugh your ass off?* Good for you. Were you laughing when the neighbor's dog was mauled and later died? Was that pretty funny to you? You should come here with your tail between your legs so to speak, but instead you get a big attitude. Your frikkin dog KILLED another dog. That's a big deal. A really, big, hairy, huge deal. And you respond by telling the poster she's a nimrod. *removed by moderator* 

Crap just earlier tonight I posted about being nice. Guess that didn't last long.... sorry... but this is so over the top. Maybe you're just a troll.


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## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Just a heads up, but it may seem like she's trying to make you feel guilty, but there's actually some pretty good advice in there. About knowing where your dog is at all times and containing him, NILIF training, a good recall, and all that. Just something to keep in mind.


Hey Paul, 

Thanks. See, you can make comments that are beneficial and helpful to the issues at hand, and those in this comment I get. Other comments were complete BS. You know that, I know that, and SHE knows that.

This is completely my fault. I trained my labs on voice commands, hand signals, and the whistle. They were to fetch me ducklings. I did a great job all by myself. I had more time then, and maybe I am more lazy now, but I have the ability to train him to do everything suggested, I just didn't. THAT is what pisses me off about myself. Rex ain't the problem, I let HIM down. Now, his life just changed forever. I can't even drop him off at my father's when going out of town. I can't trust Rex around his dogs either. And Rex has had much socialization since we first got him. He has been around lots of dogs and other animals, and lots of people. We still take him to the flea market to walk around; everyone wants to pet the German Sheperd. So, anyway, I will fix him as far as training, but the cat's out of the bag on the behavior.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sometimes it isn't a socialization thing. Some dogs are just born with weaker nerves. They see a dog and something is immediately triggered in their brain. Fight or flight - he sounds like a fighter. You can train, socialize, and keep him around as many dogs as possible and that still may never change his natural instincts. He might always want to fight or kill other dogs regardless.

It's all about managing him now. Learn from your mistake and go from there. When it comes to strange dogs, don't allow him the opportunity to make the flight or fight choice. You make the choices for him beforehand - you contain him by a leash or a fence.


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## lookin71 (Jan 30, 2011)

chelle said:


> Wow, ok. Your dog has killed another dog and your response to a poster, starts out with "LMAO."





chelle said:


> And this "someone like you" would show up.? Double wow.
> 
> Then to top it off, you call her "nimrod." Triple wow.
> 
> ...



Let's just get it over with. Did I ask you or her for attitude? Where does that come from? Arrogance. Look it up. Check out the other posts. Check out the forums. Some people have a difficult time being nice in their responses. This is no secret. If this were customer service would either of you keep your jobs? Not if you worked for me. See, since this is a forum, the nicer the comments the more likely people will want to participate in the forums and that can bring all sorts of benefits to this website. I will let you stretch your brain and think about that. I KNEW that someone would have attitude, and I thought I would be the bigger person and ignore it. But I am not in the mood. I posted a nice initial comment asking a few questions, and you should look at the response of nimrod number one and tell me where I am wrong.

Here is a look at the main problem I have with her post:

Where were _you _when this happened, and why weren't you the one who got your dog off? (Took two girls to the Mall in St. Matthews to shop. Boy, I must be a nice guy or something.)

Adoring pet or lawn ornament?

Good, thank you for changing your mind. 

Uhhhhh, was this necessary? No, it was not. We call this BS. Some good advice in her post, no doubt, but then the attitude. You see it throughout these forums. 

I think YOU have to admit that certain parts of her post were not in anyway helpful. Period. End of story.

Check out the comments by Paul. Nice guy. And thanks Paul. Rex is now contained. He has been since this in a severe way.

As far as I am concerned an admistrator can close this thread. I have all the great advice I need. I am sure there will be more attitide, but my response has just halted. No more.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

really good advice before admin closes the thread...seriously. lawyer up.

oh, and maybe stop LYAO. nothing's funny about any of this. is it?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

And when i say contain the dog, I'm not saying to put the dog in doggie prison or anything like he's some kind of menace to society. He still needs his exercise and time outside of the home or he's going to get bored and seriously destructive.

Keep him on leash when there are no fences. Let him run around, but only in fenced in areas where he can't get out and strange dogs come in. When you're not there to supervise, keep him indoors or in an outside kennel. Let the dog live a happy life, but don't ever give him the opportunity to get into it with another dog. That's the kind of containment I mean.

And I hope you took care of all the vet expenses for that other dog's family. It's really the least you can do for them for their loss.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

***Everyone stop the bickering RIGHT NOW!!!****


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Keep him on leash when there are no fences. Let him run around, but only in fenced in areas where he can't get out and strange dogs come in. When you're not there to supervise, keep him indoors or in an outside kennel. Let the dog live a happy life, but don't ever give him the opportunity to get into it with another dog. That's the kind of containment I mean.


:thumbup:
You might want to buy him a muzzle too. It'll make it easier to take him to the vet, you won't have to worry if he's going to run into a dog he doesn't like.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Just my two cents: Dogs aren't born "Alphas" they are created that way by their owners. A feral dog will have to fight and compete to become Alpha. Only the Alphas can breed, so technically all the pups are born "alphas" no, it doesn't work out that way; they fight it out. 
Only a strict regimen of structure/NILF will help. Unfortunately, by letting him hunt possums, and other small creatures his prey drive has been rewarded and not in a good way.
A small dog once it's starts screaming/squealing only intensifies the Predatory mode. 
Scary actually, since GSDs were originally "all around dogs" herding, family, guarding.....if you have one that likes to kill smaller animals, herding may well be out of the question as it may kill a sheep/goat.
SAR out of the question as it would most likely leave a track to chase a squirrel or lead you into a bear. *(YIKES)*

I wish you the best of luck with your guy.
Lucy dog had some great containment advice as well as Whiteshepherds' muzzle advice. There's nothing wrong with Muzzle Training.
You may want to pick up a book on dog behavior. 
Patricia McConnell
Dr. Nicolas Dodman
Steve Dunno
I personally liked Dodman's "The Dog Who Loved Too Much"....he has proven a link with higher protein in diet to Dominance Aggression.
Combine the high protein diet, a working breed dog without a job, and little to no structure is a reciepe for disaster.
I'm so sorry that you have to owe up to the fact that your dog killed another dog. I'd be crushed and mortified beyond belief.
Hopefully, you can stick around and learn stuff here, there are many wise folks around.
Good Luck.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This is probably a combination of prey drive and territorial behavior. Some dogs will go after animals entering their territory, especially small animals running. I also had little dogs attack my dog in the street, luckily he does not react. You have to keep him safely confined, maybe add electricity to the fence as some GSDs can easily sale a 6 foot fence. In rescue we see quite a few dogs that are not good with other dog and they require careful management. Even those that are good can injure an animal intruder on the property. They can still make wonderful companions to people. Animal aggression does not translate to people aggression. You should always have him under control on leash around other dogs and best if the other dog is also leashed. If he does not show aggression during on leash interaction, the small animal running may have triggered his drive. Try to keep your dog challenged mentally with games and training. A bored GSD will get himself into trouble.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the majority of posters

You honestly can't compare a gsd to a lab, no dogs are alike even within their own breed.

While this is terrible for the beagle and their owner, and I don't excuse Rex for what he did, it just shows you that these dogs are powerful animals and they don't like ALL dogs.

Dog aggression is different than human aggression..A dog may not like other animals but loves humans and vice versa. If he loves humans, I would have no worries at all.

You now know what you've got, and his potential to do it again. Definately keep him on a leash/long line when you are out on your open property. 

I hope you compensated the beagle owner for his loss It would be the right thing o do , I don't know what area your in, but some places an owner (the beagle owner) could have shot your dog to keep him from attacking his beagle..

Good luck.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

My GSD does not like smaller dogs. He also loves to kill chipmunks, squirrels, and other small moving things.

It sucks for me b/c I have a small terrier dog. I never, ever leave them unsupervised together.


How sad for your neighbor's poor beagle. I would work on repairing the relationship with my neighbor's first.

Then I would work with my dog. Which means containing him at all times. Finding somebody qualified to work with dog's that show aggression. You really need an experienced person to give you a working plan to help you. You need somebody that is removed from this situation to give you a fair assessment of your dog.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I read all the posts, but got so blindsided by the sarcasm and attitude that I don't remember if anyone suggested a trainer. 
A good solid recall is something a trainer can help with. 
Have you done any training with Rex?

Good luck and I hope you'll stick around regardless of the treatment you received.


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

I have no advice beyond things already mentioned but I wanted to share an experience we had several years ago.

At that time I had a lab, a collie/GSD mix, and a fox terrier. One day while my son and I were both in yard with them (my dogs on invisible fence), an elderly beagle wandered onto our property. My dogs immediately attacked this poor old fella. We pulled ours off and took the beagle to the emergency vet. Of course was weekend and couldn't get an ID from rabies tag (when found owners later, the dog had wandered about 3 miles). I paid for surgery and the beagle did fine, but it horrified me that my dogs did that.

I had that same group of dogs for another 8 years and nothing like that ever happened again, even when strange dogs came onto property.


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## jb_pwrstroke (Jul 9, 2007)

I lived in the country most of my life and every dog my parents or I have owned would attack anything that would come into the yard. It didn't matter if it was a cat dog skunk rabbit coyote possum if it had 4 legs and in our yard it was fair game. All there doing is protecting there yard its no different if a stranger walked in your house uninvited ill guarantee you your goin to do what ever it takes to stop them or make them leave. Brik attacked my neighbors dog twice once my neighbor let her dog in my house without asking and the second time her dog was on my front porch and b and I went outside not knowing it was there. I take brik to petsmart and rural king with me all the time and not once has she showed dog aggression I even let dogs come up and sniff her.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

GSDGunner said:


> I read all the posts, but got so blindsided by the sarcasm and attitude that I don't remember if anyone suggested a trainer.
> A good solid recall is something a trainer can help with.
> Have you done any training with Rex?
> 
> Good luck and I hope you'll stick around regardless of the treatment you received.


 
I do believe my post and few others right above me offered some suggestions. I think I also told him he could benefit from having a trainer.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Sorry to hear about what happened. Unfortunately some people don't realize how much training, exercise and supervision is needed until something bad happens. Just because a dog has a lot of yard to run around in nothing takes the place of a daily vigorous exercise and training regimen. If boredom sets in trouble will begin.
As long as you are committed to this dog and heed the good advice given you should be fine. I would never ever trust him around other animals unsupervised. His life is truly in your hands now. Good luck, I hope it all works out.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

jetscarbie said:


> I do believe my post and few others right above me offered some suggestions. I think I also told him he could benefit from having a trainer.


Sorry, I should have clarified my post better. I didn't mean to insinuate that there was no good advice. But it got lost in my brain from the assumptions, downright rude and sarcastic responses that offered no help to the OP.

I just hope that he sticks around. There are some great people here that can offer good, constructive advice, as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

lookin71, Even if you no longer post, I hope you are still reading. As others have already said.....Dog Aggression and Human Aggression are not related. I can not stress this strongly enough. My GSD has been dog aggressive her entire long life. She absolutely adores people. I have managed my GSD. In her younger years, she was walked with a prong collar and a muzzle. At 14, she no longer needs that. The most important commands I taught her were "LEAVE IT!" and "COME". Those commands are lifesavers. 

My dog never killed another dog, because I never allowed her the opportunity. Now that you know Rex is capable of killing, you must always be on guard. Be proactive to keep everyone safe - Rex, other dogs, and people who may try to break up a fight.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

I was rereading the initial post and -- I'm sure I will be jumped on for this -- it doesn't seem as bad as when I first read it. 

The dog is great with people and -- until the incident -- never had problems with other animals. 

The other dog came on to your property near your children and was attacked. 

Now, obviously it would be good if your dog would take it down a few notches (or 10). 

But, if my dog walked on to someone else's property where there were dogs, I wouldn't be surprised if they attacked her. I don't think she would be surprised either, which is why she wouldn't go there. Dogs understand the concept of territory very well. As horrible as it would be, I would only blame myself. 

So, your situation seems much different than if your dog wandered somewhere else and was attacking other dogs. 

If your dog is fine with animals outside your property, maybe just a better fence would solve much of the problem. Dogs really shouldn't be wandering onto your property anyway. Then you can start working on achieving better command control.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

Sounds like you have a great place for a dog. I hate seeing dogs chained up and it would be shame if thats what resulted from this.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I agree with Mister.

How many posters on her have GSDs that would kill a cat if it came onto their property? I know PLENTY and I know some who LAUGH at that fact, and take the attitude of "well the cat should have been contained." and "its just a cat" Maybe the beagle should have been contained better?

Ignore those with the attitude, if there is any help information in the posts then take that and disregard the rest.

I second getting a trainer and working with your dog. As its been said, dog aggression and human aggression are *not* nearly the same thing. Now you know what your dog is capable of, so now its time to take the steps to prevent it from happening again. Work on recall, work with a trainer, put up a fence if possible, or keep the dog on a leash (you can get a long lead) while you are in areas that are not fenced in.

Get online and print out some information about dog/human aggression, have the trainer come in and talk to your kids. This is not the end of the world and doesn't mean the dog is going to turn on you or your family.


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## MountainGSDs (Jul 25, 2011)

If the beagle came onto your property why are you paying the vet, or are you? My dogs are extremely people and kid friendly but they don't care for some animals. They are very discriminatory so if another animal comes into my yard they do so at their own risk.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I don't think he said he did/was, unless I missed it.


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## jb_pwrstroke (Jul 9, 2007)

I think it was more of a territorial thing I lived on only 2 acres I taught the dogs that this is ours don't leave it. Try teaching him that a smaller amount if the the property is his and until then you might have to tie him up but I don't think there's much to worry about. I got out of having to pay for my neighbors dogstwice vet bills because when it happened her dog was in my yard. In illinois im not legally responsible for it her dog was trespassing was what the county sheriff told me after her grandson called them.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

I am really curious what many of the forum posters' dogs would do if their dog was out in their yard (with children present) and a strange dog wandered in. 

Nobody wants a dog killed....but are they saying their dog wouldn't be aggressive at all? I know my girl would certainly put on a good show of ferocity, even if it was mostly show. Nonaggression in that situation would run counter to the deepest instincts in the dog. Wolves don't go in other wolves territories -- because they get killed! 

And, in that situation, with a strange dog wandering into your yard with your kids there -- would nonaggression even be desirable?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

The OP lives on 27 acres. The boys were in the front field. The hound came to the fence line. I'm "assuming" all this was on the OPs property? Maybe not? Don't know if he paid any expenses. I would just feel terrible if my dog killed another dog. Since there are supposedly 2 fenced in acres for the dog - hopefully escape proof and also able to keep out other dogs, I would not allow my GSD outside of that area unattended. What's done is done, but I would make changes to ensure it doesn't happen again. 

Maybe the beagle shouldn't have been on the property. Regardless, a neighbor is a neighbor. Bad feelings with a neighbor are never a good thing. Probably both neighbors should make changes in confining their pets.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

I think tying/chaining dogs up tends to make them MORE reactive and MORE territorial. Not to mention psychotic. Haven't you walked past some poor beast that's been tied up his whole life, who rushes to the end of his chain, and you know that if that chain breaks.....you are in some serious trouble?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

misterW said:


> I am really curious what many of the forum posters' dogs would do if their dog was out in their yard (with children present) and a strange dog wandered in.
> 
> Nobody wants a dog killed....but are they saying their dog wouldn't be aggressive at all? I know my girl would certainly put on a good show of ferocity, even if it was mostly show. Nonaggression in that situation would run counter to the deepest instincts in the dog. Wolves don't go in other wolves territories -- because they get killed!
> 
> And, in that situation, with a strange dog wandering into your yard with your kids there -- would nonaggression even be desirable?


A strange dog could not get into my yard. I believe dogs should be safely contained. My dog would be a danger to other dogs. She is DA. I would not allow her to wander on the front lawn where there is a risk of a dog coming onto or close to our property. I would not want young children to witness a dog fight. I would not want them to get in the middle of a dog fight. My dog lives in the house. My dog is never left in the yard unattended - even with a 6 foot privacy fence and is NEVER outside of the fence off leash.


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## jb_pwrstroke (Jul 9, 2007)

I agree with mister if my gf or i is in our yard and my dog is with me and another dog comes into my I want her to stop the other dog and not let it near me its called PROTECTION that's what her job is.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> I agree with Mister.
> 
> How many posters on her have GSDs that would kill a cat if it came onto their property? I know PLENTY and I know some who LAUGH at that fact, and take the attitude of "well the cat should have been contained." and "its just a cat" Maybe the beagle should have been contained better?


I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> A strange dog could not get into my yard. I believe dogs should be safely contained. My dog would be a danger to other dogs. She is DA. I would not allow her to wander on the front lawn where there is a risk of a dog coming onto or close to our property. I would not want young children to witness a dog fight. I would not want them to get in the middle of a dog fight. My dog lives in the house. My dog is never left in the yard unattended - even with a 6 foot privacy fence and is NEVER outside of the fence off leash.


I agree with all of that. To the OP I would personally be relieved that your children did not try to intervene. I am not sure if Kaos would do the same thing, but I wouldn't bet against it. He tolerates/ and or ignores other dogs when we are out walking or in public (always on leash)....but I would not want to test what would happen if a dog came onto his property especially if my kids were outside. Is he "too protective" probably...is that due to some fault of mine in his younger years....I'd venture to say yes. So since your dog is young and you are now aware it is an issue. I would up the training as others have stated for a reliable "leave it" and recall. I would also if possible have the dog indoors more and if need be outside unsupervised in a run rather then chained/tied. I also agree that DA and HA are two very different problems. Best of luck, and sorry for the circumstances.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

mysweetkaos said:


> I agree with all of that. To the OP I would personally be relieved that your children did not try to intervene. I am not sure if Kaos would do the same thing, but I wouldn't bet against it. *He tolerates/ and or ignores other dogs when we are out walking or in public (always on leash)....but I would not want to test what would happen if a dog came onto his property especially if my kids were outside.* Is he "too protective" probably...is that due to some fault of mine in his younger years....I'd venture to say yes. So since your dog is young and you are now aware it is an issue. I would up the training as others have stated for a reliable "leave it" and recall. I would also if possible have the dog indoors more and if need be outside unsupervised in a run rather then chained/tied. I also agree that DA and HA are two very different problems. Best of luck, and sorry for the circumstances.


Exactly! To answer others, "YES!" Many of our dogs would react as the OPs dog did. I don't think that makes it OK. I don't think that means I have no responsibility. I don't want my to kill other dogs. I can and will prevent that from happening.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

Many people don't have the luxury of yards or places for a dog to run or hang out in. 

I understand where people are coming from, but it would seem (to me) a shame to deny a dog that in an effort to protect dogs that are roaming where they shouldn't be. 

Almost like making sure there is nothing in your house to trip on in case a burglar passes through in the middle of the night. 

I fully agree with training the dog to be called off when necessary. Although, to be fair, maybe the dog WOULD have responded to the owner, had he been there.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I will admit I allowed my temper to get the better of me, especially after your (removed) response. 

It came across as exceedingly cold and callous and although I certainly could have done a better job to contain my temper (and keyboard), I did not. 

I wonder if you'd be receiving so many, "Oh poor new poster" comments if they could have read that. I think the mod did you a nice favor by removing your comment.

I hope you will very handsomely compensate your neighbor.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know. It seemed the original post was almost a "brag" so I really didn't know what to say.
Then hurling insults at everyone rather turned me off.
The only thing I'd add is that others are right, your dog is not "alpha", he's messed up and not trained, and maybe messed up worse by being chained. 
If you can secure your property, do so. If not, make a smaller area for him and secure that. 
And train him.


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## jb_pwrstroke (Jul 9, 2007)

Its not there job to compensate there neighbor, the neighbors dog was in there property so its not there duty to take care of it. If someone broke into your house and you shot and killed them would you compensate there family?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Actually he said "fence line". Not sure if that means there is a fence, or no fence. Not sure if the Beagle was on his property or on his own.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

Here's a question: what are the best ways to train your dog to be "called off" of attacking an animal?

This is similar to an issue that I've had. I wanted to train my dog to be able to call her off from deer, but how does one practice that? I don't have any deer available to practice on. She will come back to me from playing with other dogs, but that's not nearly the same level of excitement. And if we're walking in the woods, trying to start training her when she has spotted one and already flying towards it at 30+ mph is probably not going to work so well. 

So how does one go about training their dog to respond while they are in a fight?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You just train until the dog can be recalled no matter what the distraction.


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## misterW (Jan 25, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> You just train until the dog can be recalled no matter what the distraction.


How do you know if the dog can be recalled from a high excitement (fight/chasing an animal/etc.) distraction until it happens? And when training, shouldn't you only give a command if you are sure it will be obeyed or able to enforce that it is obeyed (ie dog is on a lead, etc.)?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know that most dogs won't be able to make the distinction between a little dog and a big dog, but seriously this was a beagle. Most dogs should however be able to distinguish between a threatening dog and a non threatening dog. I get that it was being protective in its own territory, but that territory should be the family's first. The boys were yelling at the dog to stop, and it didn't.

Most people on here will tell you that a good GSD will look at their master/handler for direction. If the people aren't feeling threatened, the dog should not go after another dog. This is what protection work/shutzhund teaches. To control that ability, not to just use it whenever they want.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

misterW said:


> How do you know if the dog can be recalled from a high excitement (fight/chasing an animal/etc.) distraction until it happens? And when training, shouldn't you only give a command if you are sure it will be obeyed or able to enforce that it is obeyed (ie dog is on a lead, etc.)?




I'm not sure about your area, but there are places here in Texas where you can have your dog "crittered" or "critter proofed." They use captive prey animals (or another dog for a dog-aggressive dog) and an e-collar. 

Here's a good article on it by Lou Castle, arguably THE expert on e-collar training:
LOU CASTLE - CRITTERING AND AGGRESSION


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Wow, that must have been so scary for your kids to witness. I can certainly understand why they might be a bit nervous around the dog now, but like has already been stated, dog aggression is not the same as human aggression.

I will be completely honest here. I live on a large parcel of land too, smack dab in the middle of the woods (no road frontage, you can't even see my house from the road) and I often have both of my dogs off leash in the yard with me. There are plenty of local dogs who are not contained in their yards in spite of a leash law. They are country dogs, and country dogs run free apparently. If a dog were to wander into my yard, I could not call Niko off the dog either. I don't know if he would fight, I suspect it would depend on the other dog, but it is entirely possible.

I'm really sorry this happened to you. I'm really sorry that someone had to lose their dog. I don't think either party is completely innocent or completely to blame. Just a sucky situation all around. I hope that you do consider finding someone to evaluate your dog, maybe the situation is not completely hopeless and the person can give you tips on how to deal with his dog aggression. At the very least, I think he should be carefully managed for the rest of his life and not allowed contact with any other strange dogs. Good luck.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

No I wouldn't trust him around other dogs - especially one encroaching on his territory.

At his age, doubt you can significantly alter his dog on dog aggression and don't think neutering him will change anything.

As long as he's good with people, I'd just monitor his outdoor activities.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

jb_pwrstroke said:


> I agree with mister if my gf or i is in our yard and my dog is with me and another dog comes into my I want her to stop the other dog and not let it near me its called PROTECTION that's what her job is.


Even a lost puppy posing no threat? Should your dog be protecting you against that? Would your protection dog know the difference between a dog looking to attack you and your girlfriend and a lost dog?

Depending on the situation, I would not call what you described as protection at all.



jb_pwrstroke said:


> Its not there job to compensate there neighbor, the neighbors dog was in there property so its not there duty to take care of it. If someone broke into your house and you shot and killed them would you compensate there family?


Comparing a neighbors or a lost dog wandering on your property to someone breaking into your house is like comparing apples an oranges. It's completely irrelevant. Burglars/criminals have completely different intentions than a wandering dog.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree with a lot that MisterW said.

And I would sure as heck not compensate my neighbors if their beagle came into my yard and my dog killed it. The dog didn't leave his yard. If there were leash laws, maybe. But in a country setting like this, I doubt there are. Growing up my childhood dog killed or injured MANY dogs that came into our yard, while he was on a long run (tree to tree) and supervised. He was dog aggressive, but he was contained and on his property. It's sad to see/have happen, but maybe the neighbors will learn better than to let their dogs loose. 

So the best advice I have that many others have stated, is to keep your dog on a long lead or fenced in at your house, to prevent him from leaving the yard, and hopefully remove him from fighting situations. Dog aggression can just start like it did, and sometimes we have no idea what triggers it, but it is completely different from human aggression and you should not feel unsafe having him as a pet. HOWEVER, make sure your family realizes that dogs can REDIRECT dog aggression onto a human during a fight- so if you or your children try breaking him out of a fight ever, he may turn around and bite them because he is in kill mode on a dog and doesn't realize they are people instead. Try not to put him in the situation again, though. For everyone's best interest. He may be large and dominant, but he might get approached by a larger, more dominant dog next time and might not be so lucky.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Has anyone asked themselves how the GSD managed to "tear apart" and kill a Beagle through a fence?
Why is it assumed the Beagle is on the GSD's property? The OP said "As it approached the 'fence line'" meaning the dog was not _on _the property _yet. _
Unless I am missing something, everyone is assuming the Beagle left it's own property.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Has anyone asked themselves how the GSD managed to "tear apart" and kill a Beagle through a fence?
> Why is it assumed the Beagle is on the GSD's property? The OP said "As it approached the 'fence line'" meaning the dog was not _on _the property _yet. _
> Unless I am missing something, everyone is assuming the Beagle left it's own property.


I got the same impression that the attack happened on the beagle owner's property. If so, it sounds like the GSDs owner needs to fence his dog in!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I must have lousy German Shepherds. I walked out to the back yard last year to find them both snuggled up with the neighbor's little white Maltese puppy! After that the neighbors couldn't let their puppy off the leash or she'd make a beeline for my back yard.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

arycrest said:


> I got the same impression that the attack happened on the beagle owner's property. If so, it sounds like the GSDs owner needs to fence his dog in!



To me is sounded like there is a history of both dogs running loose. So this was a situation waiting to happen, regardless of whos property it was on. If I allow my dog to run loose, and I know it gets into scuffles with another dog that also runs loose, then I am just as much to blame for my dogs death, regardless of who's property it is on.

The issues on this though are between the OP and the neighbor to work out. 

The OP is now aware of what his dog is capable of and should now do what is right by his dog. The owner of the beagle should also do the same for any other dogs, or future dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> I must have lousy German Shepherds. I walked out to the back yard last year to find them both snuggled up with the neighbor's little white Maltese puppy! After that the neighbors couldn't let their puppy off the leash or she'd make a beeline for my back yard.


Don't you just hate when your dogs don't kill other innocent dogs? What kind of protection is that?!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Has anyone asked themselves how the GSD managed to "tear apart" and kill a Beagle through a fence?


I figured since they lived in the country, it was most likely a hog type fence (wire fence) in poor repair, or maybe a barb (or barb less) wire fence. 

You'd be shocked at how easily a dog can slip through a wire fence.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Everyone reads and interpets posts in their own way, but from what I read nowhere did I think the OP was bragging about what happened.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh yeah well if it was like hog panel or cattle panels, yeah I could see that. 
Or just downtrodden wire. 
I was imagining some spiffy chain link jobber.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Oh yeah well if it was like hog panel or cattle panels, yeah I could see that.
> Or just downtrodden wire.
> I was imagining some spiffy chain link jobber.


Not that I'm speaking from experiance here.....:blush:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I guess it was this --



> Some other dogs used to bother him but they don't come around any more 'cause* Rex is too big to mess with.*
> 
> I know Rex has an *extraordinary prey drive.*
> 
> ...


That came off more as a brag and kind of an "oopsie, I guess he killed the wrong thing this time". 
And the posts that were deleted.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My understanding was that a smaller part of the property is feces in for the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

RebelGSD said:


> My understanding was that a smaller part of the property is *feces* in for the dog.


Um...autocorrect I presume?


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

msvette2u said:


> I guess it was this --
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could it be that he was just stating facts about his dog. The fact that you took it as bragging... that's your issue.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well as mentioned, there was other things said that got deleted but a lot of people missed it as it was late last night. 
It was a combination of things said.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I know that most dogs won't be able to make the distinction between a little dog and a big dog, but seriously this was a beagle.


I disagree. One of the qualities GSD should possess is outstanding judgment. They should certainly be able to easily assess the lack of risk posed by children, small dogs or physically frail beings. It's appalling Rex all out attacked & killed a dog that's presumably much smaller.

Can the dog be trusted with other dogs? No. Never. He can & s/b carefully managed, loved & trained, but he should not get another opportunity to kill another dog. I feel too that's it's important that he be fully integrated into the household if he isn't already. Dogs need & deserve to be full fledged members of the family. It's healthier for both dogs & humans, IMO.



> I must have lousy German Shepherds. I walked out to the back yard last year to find them both snuggled up with the neighbor's little white Maltese puppy! After that the neighbors couldn't let their puppy off the leash or she'd make a beeline for my back yard.


Emoore, you made me smile. My GSD are equally lousy. Even when small dogs get snotty with 'em they just raise an eyebrow & give them an 'As IF' look. Small, scrappy beasts are simply beneath their notice & I LOVE it. Sadly, Spanky, the American Bulldog, can't ignore a challenge regardless of how pointlessly ridiculous it is. The ongoing need to manage her gets tedious.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

RubyTuesday said:


> I disagree. One of the qualities GSD should possess is outstanding judgment. They should certainly be able to easily assess the lack of risk posed by children, small dogs or physically frail beings. It's appalling Rex all out attacked & killed a dog that's presumably much smaller.
> 
> Can the dog be trusted with other dogs? No. Never. He can & s/b carefully managed, loved & trained, but he should not get another opportunity to kill another dog. I feel too that's it's important that he be fully integrated into the household if he isn't already. Dogs need & deserve to be full fledged members of the family. It's healthier for both dogs & humans, IMO.
> 
> Emoore, you made me smile. My GSD are equally lousy. Even when small dogs get snotty with 'em they just raise an eyebrow & give them an 'As IF' look. Small, scrappy beasts are simply beneath their notice & I LOVE it. Sadly, Spanky, the American Bulldog, can't ignore a challenge regardless of how pointlessly ridiculous it is. The ongoing need to manage her gets tedious.


I agree with this. I doubt I'd own a dog who killed other dogs, for many reasons - large or small. 
And I agree they should have discrimination.
Makes me wonder if these two had ongoing "issues" prior to this - they must have?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the poster said that there was a previous incident between the beagle and Rex. The owner wasn't there to see it though. Only said that the neighbor separated them. If the neighbor is the one who did, sounds to me like Rex was at the neighbor's place, fighting with the beagle, on at least one occasion. 
No, wouldn't trust Rex around dogs in the future. That means YOU, not the kids, have to be in charge of him at all times. Keep him in his fenced area. Work on his recall training and get him solid on that. Until that is done, no off-leash running on the 27 acres. After he is 100% on his training, then only loose under direct ADULT supervision.

I don't necessarily fault the dog for the attack - some dogs just don't like certain individuals and there IS a history here. Both neighbors are at fault for not taking care of the situation the first time.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I think sometimes we underestimate our dogs. We talk about "pack structure" as if the dogs believe that we are also dogs. Clearly, we are not, and I think they know that.

We talk about "prey drive" with little dogs... and while it may come into play with the initial "chase," I don't think a GSD is going to mistake a beagle or any other little dog for "prey." I believe they absolutely can tell what's a dog and what isn't.

A GSD killing a cat or a rabbit, etc., that's prey drive. Killing another dog that came onto their property: dog aggression/protectiveness. 

My Luna killed a rabbit the other day that wandered underneath our gate. My neighbors have a bassett, a little spaniel mix, and a Great Pyr that roam free all of the time. The little spaniel once wandered under the gate once and then ran around like a mad little thing because it couldn't figure out how to get back out again. Luna went up to it happily, wagging her tail. She knew full well it wasn't a rabbit or other "prey." 

We don't have the full details of this "attack" and likely never will. I initially thought that the beagle had wandered onto the GSD's property, but obviously others interpreted the story differently. I didn't feel the OP was bragging, but neither did I feel the OP was all that upset. IMO, the point of the post was to ask whether the dog was likely to show aggression towards the children, since he showed aggression towards the dog.

I believe that has been answered. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression, however dogs in the heat of the moment can and do "redirect" on humans so that is where you need to be careful. You also need to make sure your dog is never unsupervised with other dogs: always keep him on a leash or otherwise contained when other dogs are present.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RudbyTuesday, I completely agree that our dogs should have that discrimination. Mine definately does. He ignores all little dogs except his older cousin (a westie). He just doesn't bother with little dogs. But I've noticed many dogs don't have this discrimination. They smell a dog, any dog, and are ready to attack or play with a chihuahua the same way they are ready to attack or play with a great dane. My dog looks at most other dogs as play mates, someone to have fun with. He looks at little rodents/cats like prey. Therefore he is not allowed around little rodents or cats.

I guess my wording was a little off, but I have seen too many dogs go just off of smell. They smell another dog, and forget that there is a size difference. Its probably more apparant in little dogs than big dogs. Those little suckers will get fiesty with a big dog and bark their heads off just as they will with a little dog. I guess what I was trying to get to was that dogs aren't as rational as we are. I'm not going up to a guy 10 times my size and yelling at him, but dogs do it all the time. There are many GSDs that would see a little dog wandering onto their property and ignore it, they know its not a threat to anyone, and if it became a threat it would be delt with quite quickly and easily. But there are plenty out there that wouldn't care. They would just deal with it as if it was as dangerous as a 100 lb dog.

Its the same idea when anyone comes onto the forum asking for "protection training help." They usually don't understand that if you teach your dog to attack a person without proper socialization, it will attack all people, not just the bad ones. Since it has no idea what the difference is.


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