# Help asap!



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Ok, I'm just going to lay the scenario out, I know I'm bound to get some negative comments but please be kind as this has been the most traumatic week I've ever been through. 

As some of you saw, last week the boys had an incident with the neighbours schnauzer , who is on the mend and up and walking around now I might add. 
The next day (last Saturday) my husband and are were to dog sit my parents two beagles. All of the dogs know each other well, play together and sleep together on a regular basis. 
We should have used our brains and not left the boys alone so soon after the chaos from the day before. 
We came home to pick the dogs up who had all been left out loose together in the "sideyard" (basically a yard off of the detached garage that the dogs go in and out of through the day while we are gone). 
There had been another attack. Now, since no one was home, we don't know what triggered it all we know was the Drew (10 year old beagle) was severely injured. My husband and I rushed her to the emergency clinic, where she said for the remainder of the weekend hooked up to iv fluids and had surgery to repair damage done to her abdomen. I do not need to go into graphic detail of what shape her body was in as I'm sure German Shepherd vs beagle paints the picture. 
Drew passed away in Monday after she went into cardiac arrest. 
My heart is shattered, not only for the loss of my girl, but that my boy did it. 

Now my family has put me in a position that they are basically saying I need to get rid of Wile E (we believe he was the one to do the damage). 
They think that now he is going to turn on my household, my kids mainly. I've assured them that I am contacting trainers and the breeder to get the help that I need to manage the dogs. But they don't seem to think that that will matter and want the dog out of my house. 

Help. 

I have cried for almost a week straight, I laid last night crying as Wile E licked the tears streaming down my face... How can I look at him and think of just... Giving up ... When in this tragic time... He is the one consoling me!?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So sorry about this whole situation and the loss of your senior girl, Drew.


Please, up your management....there is no other way to do this. Freedom is had when earned, no reason to let Wile E have the opportunity to do what he's done in the past. 
Only you can decide what other options you have with him, you know who he is, if he does this again, it is on you.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

omg I'm so sorry........... I wish I had advice other than what you are doing.... get help from someone! It's not up to your family whether or not you keep a dog. It's up to you if you are going to work with him and manage him or not. In the meantime can you keep him in a crate while you are gone?


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Oh yes, he is always crated while I'm gone.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

First of all I am sorry for the loss and the situation you are in. 
You are very brave to be open and honest and ask for opinions.

The question you need to ask your self is can you manage the dog in future?
If you can honestly say yes then keep the dog. If not then maybe it is better given to someone who can.

My boy has an excellent temperament however I can not control what other dogs do to annoy him etc. so when I sit other dogs I make sure they are never together unsupervised. I mean never.

In saying that a dog with dog aggression doesn't mean it is human aggressive.either way it is somthing you need to decide with yourself and your family.
Good luck


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Yikes!
I think it goes without saying that neither dog can be trusted around other pooches anymore- since you don't know which dog is the instigator. I don't have children but I wouldn't believe that your dogs would just automatically make the jump from attacking dogs to attacking humans. Whether you keep Wiley E or not, he will need a management strategy from here on out. 
We'll keep you and your family in our thoughts.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I don't think your parents should have a say in whether you keep your dog... that being said extra training never hurt anyone and constant supervison would be a must if you think its possible he would hurt anyone in the family...has he shown aggression other than these occassions in the household?


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Hey, I'm sorry this has happened. You have several issues to consider, here are some of them. Your future relationship with your parents, your children's emotions and their feelings of safety, grief over Drew, forgiving your dog, your ability to manage Wile E's environment. It could take your children absent-mindedly slipping up with security arrangements to have a future repeat episode.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

wick said:


> I don't think your parents should have a say in whether you keep your dog... that being said extra training never hurt anyone and constant supervison would be a must if you think its possible he would hurt anyone in the family...has he shown aggression other than these occassions in the household?



Never. 
The only thing he shows any sort of aggression over is his food with other dogs, he has been like that since we brought him home, they have always eaten in crates so it has never been an issue. 

I can't tell you the amount of people that have come into the house that they don't know, and they don't react any different than if they had known the person. 
With my kids.... If I didn't trust a dog, they wouldn't be near my kids simple as that.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am so sorry you are going through this. 

It sounds like you have already contacted a trainer. And that is good. You need to understand why he is suddenly so dog aggressive. Unless he always has been, and just now realized his power. 

Your dogs should never be left alone with other dogs unsupervised, including each other, again. 

From here out its management. In the course of a week your dogs have done pretty serious damage to someone else's beloved pets. Such a tragic situation for all involved. 

Dog aggression and human aggression are very different things. However, it may come down to WHY the aggression happened. And it may turn out that the instigating factor is something that could be triggered with people as well. Resource guarding, dominance behavior, redirection of anxiety. Any of those scenarios could potentially trigger an attack. So you MUST find a knowledgeable trainer to help you pinpoint the cause.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

How old are your kids?

My GSD is dog aggressive. I don't know to what extend, because I've never left her unsupervised and off leash around any animal, but twice she has attacked another dog. I was able to pull her off immediately, so I don't know what the end process would be if I left her alone with another dog.

She has never shown the slightest aggression towards my children. I have a 17yr old, 15yr old, 5yr old, and 3yr old. She plays with my teenagers, and kisses my you get girls, but does not like to play or be pet by them. If they try, she just walks away, and they've been taught not to follow. But I don't leave my GSD unsupervised around the children either. 

Dog aggressive doesn't automatically = aggressive to everyone/everything. But previous posters are giving you great advice. Can you handle keeping him constantly separated from other dogs, including your other GSD. Can you handle constant supervision around your children. Can you handle not having family come to your home out of fear? Can you handle the backlash of your family being upset that your dog ultimately killed tier beloved pet, and you deciding to keep him?

How are you certain it's Wilie that is the aggressor? If it's not certain, you're going to have to work both dogs the same. Never alone with another animal, never unsupervised around children, meet alone together regardless.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

jschrest said:


> How old are your kids?



They are 11 and 7. And have also been taught to respect dogs, and to remember that they are animals and not humans so need to be treated accordingly. 
They are also aware of the situation that happened at that there are new rules in the house when it comes to them. 
They each had a friend over the other day and respected the fact that the dogs were not to be down where the kids were playing and when the kids came upstairs the dogs when outside, kids went outside dogs came inside. Etc etc


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

bob_barker said:


> Never.
> The only thing he shows any sort of aggression over is his food with other dogs, he has been like that since we brought him home, they have always eaten in crates so it has never been an issue.
> 
> I can't tell you the amount of people that have come into the house that they don't know, and they don't react any different than if they had known the person.
> With my kids.... If I didn't trust a dog, they wouldn't be near my kids simple as that.


In that case I personally wouldn't even consider getting rid of him (as long as I had the capability to manage him/them as others mentioned), I would follow exactly what GSDSARs post recommends. On top of that I would never leave any kid, stranger, or dog with either of them unsupervised just in case, or anyone other than yourself and husband.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

jschrest said:


> How old are your kids?
> 
> My GSD is dog aggressive. I don't know to what extend, because I've never left her unsupervised and off leash around any animal, but twice she has attacked another dog. I was able to pull her off immediately, so I don't know what the end process would be if I left her alone with another dog.
> 
> ...


^^^^ and this!


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

You have a dog pack.
I was alarmed on the other thread when people kept saying it was all fine, the other dog wandered in, etc. so basically it's okay for your dogs to attack it.
I understand dogs will "defend" their territory but quite honestly I do not not think they should _savage _another animal. 
My own sheps recognize a "non threat" (another dog wandering by!) from a real threat and react accordingly. They have always done so. The threat is only dealt with to the extent that it actually is. In your case the other dog wasn't even really being a threat and your dogs put it in the vet hospital.
Now you know...too bad you couldn't have realized it before the beagle.
But now that you know you're going to have to make major changes in your life and theirs.
I do not blame your parents for feeling like they do - mismanagement caused this death of their dog 
Generally if you can't or don't make changes, it will happen again.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It's an awful situation. Why does everyone think it's one dog over the other? I think management is the key. I also don't think that dog aggression means human aggression. Some dogs don't like dogs, some don't like small dogs, etc. one of your guys does not like small dogs. Which dog did your daughter see attack the neighbor dog? A trainer is a good option. I have an instigator and for that reason Batman is in a crate when not supervised. I hate that he is in there, but it's better then him being dead. I doubt he mine will ever change, so it's management. I hope everything works out. Can I assume that your neighbors will watch their dog and not allow it to wander in your yard anymore?


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## LaurenAuslan14 (Jul 12, 2015)

My dog used to be dog aggressive, it took a few years of (first getting away from my dad's pit that instigated fights, nothing against pits.. he just liked to instigate ) and socialization he was better ... but also I trusted him with my kids 100%


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SkoobyDoo said:


> I do not blame your parents for feeling like they do - mismanagement caused this death of their dog
> Generally if you can't or don't make changes, it will happen again.


I can only guess that the parents knew what happened with the neighbor dog and still felt comfortable with leaving their dogs. I don't think there was any indication of what would happen and as tragic as it is they could have brought their dogs elsewhere. My point is that no one felt either dog was a threat. They shouldn't put the OP in this position, because everyone had choices. Sadly they weren't the right choices and it ended tragically.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> It's an awful situation. Why does everyone think it's one dog over the other? I think management is the key. I also don't think that dog aggression means human aggression. Some dogs don't like dogs, some don't like small dogs, etc. one of your guys does not like small dogs. Which dog did your daughter see attack the neighbor dog? A trainer is a good option. I have an instigator and for that reason Batman is in a crate when not supervised. I hate that he is in there, but it's better then him being dead. I doubt he mine will ever change, so it's management. I hope everything works out. Can I assume that your neighbors will watch their dog and not allow it to wander in your yard anymore?




We assume it's Wile E over Bob as he was the one that had blood all over his legs when we got their  

She said that when she went out it was both of the dogs, but that Bob "got off" as soon as she told him to and Wile E was harder to. 

Oh yes the neighbour has made it very clear that she will be keeping her dog away from our fence line and that the fence will be "beefed up". 

This is all just so awful. 

The hardest part I am having is telling my parents, that dog aggression does not = human aggression. 

I understand that they are upset, she was my dog too, so I'm hurt on both sides of this. 
It sucks so bad to say the least. 

Thank you all for your advice it really means a lot


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Any good trainer can explain to everyone that dog aggression doesn't mean human aggression. Most trainers would even say that dog aggression is more manageable then human aggression. Find a trainer, talk with the trainer, and involve the family so everyone knows how to mansge both dogs. It's really hard to determine which dog even with some evidence


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

What an absolutely horrible situation for you to be in. I'm so sorry for you. 

You've been given some great advice / info / suggestions. 

I have a couple of comments:

1 - dog aggression does NOT equal human aggression BUT I would have him under supervision for a while before I let him be alone with kids ... JUST to be on the safe side. My dog is VERY dog reactive if a dog gets in her face (she pins, no warning / no growl, no nothing). As a result I am very aware of loose dogs and we never do dog parks LOL. A GSD trainer / behaviourist will be able to give you a much better level of understanding on what you are dealing with. But, she's fine with people. She's aloof LOL, but doesn't attack them!

2 - management - not easy and not always fun, but imperative both for HIS safety and any other potential dog

3 - You might not like this comment, and I'm not trying to personally attack you so, please don't take it that way. I completely understand where your parents are coming from (and yes, I love dogs). In their mind your dog(s) have attacked twice, and the second attack resulted in their dog dying. If this was ANY other person's dog, they would be demanding that your dog be put down. If this was a pitbull, it would automatically be put down. 

Please, don't think I'm telling you to put your dog down, I'm not ... I'm just trying to get you to see if from THEIR perspective. Likely, they will always be afraid of your dog from now own, regardless of how he interacts with people - it's human nature, especially when they saw how much damage was done to their dog. 

My heart goes out to you and your family for the horrible experience you have gone through. I wish you all the best and hope that you can find a trainer / behaviourist to help you manage your dog's aggression.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not going to sugar coat this. 

This is totally your/your husband's fault. You left the dogs together and left, dogs that do not live with you, the day after a dog fight, in which your dogs played a part. You know this. So now you need to explain it to your folks, that it was your fault, it would have never happened, save for the irresponsibility.

Please do not kill your dog because of your error.

Yes, you should work with your dog, and get a good trainer -- you should be doing that regardless. But, do not believe that some trainer is going to wave a magic wand and now your dog will be able to be kenneled with other dogs it does not know while you are gone. That is insane. 

You need to spend more time learning who your dog is, what makes him tick, building a bond, but your dog is not a dog that should be let loose with other dogs, and no amount of training is going to change that. Oh, you can change his behavior while you are right there wielding an e-collar or some such junk, but e-collar or not, you will NEVER be able to leave this dog loose with other dogs. I would not leave him loose with another GSD that I owned.

Taking a dog I was entrusted with and leaving them in a kennel with a couple of my own dogs, is unthinkable to me. And, I am talking about dogs who have never had an instance of dog aggression. Coming home to a blood bath must have been terrible, and I am sure you have learned plenty. But, you err in that you are blaming the dog and not yourself. 

When we put the blame on others, or on a dog, we are unlikely to make the changes we need to make, because we do not understand where the fault lies. We now look at the dog at some sort of monster. The dog is a DOG. It is not a monster, but it is a critter, not a hairy, illiterate, mute child. When we live with dogs it is totally our responsibility to keep our dogs safe from other dogs and from themselves. Yes we do sometimes leave our dogs together. And generally there are no problems with that, but if there are, we should not blame the dog, or hold it against the dog, because we hold the greater blame.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

I never once said it WASNT my fault. I've been living with this guilt since the moment I walked up to that yard. 
My parents KNEW of the incident that happened the day before with the schnauzer, KNEW that our dogs were all going to be left alone together , and we're in fact the ones to leave the house AFTER us. 

I KNOW that it is my fault and I wasn't using my brain when I left those dogs alone together and it is something I must live with forever now. I have to live with the image of my baby girl the way that she was when we came home. 
I KNOW that there isn't a magical trainer in the world that can come into my home and wave some hocus pocus over my dogs and all will be better. But there are people that an help... And that's what I came on here for... 
I didn't come here asking to be blamed for something that I ALREADY knew was my fault. I came on here to ask for support and advice. 

Thank you to those who have given me their honest and humble opinions and advice.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Selzer is right. Most any dog can learn to fight to resolve issues given the right mix of circumstances but to take things as far as your dog did likely means there are core temperament issues that need to be managed. You can't ever let that dog be alone with another dog for any length of time without supervision. You shouldn't really allow dogs to be together unsupervised with any dogs period but doubly so for a dog like that.

It doesn't mean it will turn on you or your kids or snap or whatever. What the dog engaged in was not what I'd call the behavior of a temperamentally stable dog. If it was my dog if I saw it engage in any other aggressive behavior toward another dog in my presence I would come down extremely hard on that dog in a timed manner.

A trainer cannot just fix this dog to the point it will never act aggressively like that again. The dog has learned the behavior the dog has used it to resolve problems and moreover genetically carries a predisposition to that sort of behavior. Take it from me. I own a dog like this. Zebu. When I first got Crank as a puppy for weeks Zebu wanted to kill him and only eventually learned to get a long with him through use of force on my part. I do not allow them to play unsupervised because dogs are dogs and things can and do happen especially since both are un-neutered males. They get on great now but there are times when things get weird and I have to step in. This will always be a dog that must be managed.

What a trainer can do is put the brakes on the aggressive dog vs dog behavior to the point the dog can be managed in the presence of other dogs but the dog could end up going after another dog at anytime even with the inhibitions of past experiences the trainer can put on the dog in place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is the line I am worried about: "My heart is shattered, not only for the loss of my girl, but that my boy did it." and this one: "How can I look at him and think of just... Giving up ... When in this tragic time... He is the one consoling me!?"

Dog aggression does not equal people aggression. Unless there are indicators that he wants to attack children, this incident does not mean he will. But it is an incident that is serious, and I can understand your family's concerns. 

Assure them that you will never leave the boy out again with other dogs when you are gone. You will crate him or kennel him alone in a garage or basement. Sometimes family makes unreasonable demands, and we have to respect where they are coming from, but we cannot let them force us to do something we will certainly regret.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So sad. are you guys saying that even Bob is in jeopardy now?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I may not be the popular opinion here, but I would never think of leaving dogs together like that unattended, and have a hard time feeling sympathy for you when another dog had to suffer the consequences because of irresponsible ownership. What support could you possibly be looking for? There is no justification as to why another dog ended up being killed by another, other than human error. There's no sugar coating it and I wouldn't expect any support if I were you. 

A dog who has killed another dog is a massive liability. I cannot express my seriousness in that sentiment. This never should have happened and if you are not 100% sure that it won't happen again, then you should absolutely place the dog elsewhere that it can be managed. This post really made me sick to my stomach..


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I may not be the popular opinion here, but I would never think of leaving dogs together like that unattended, and have a hard time feeling sympathy for you when another dog had to suffer the consequences because of irresponsible ownership. What support could you possibly be looking for? There is no justification as to why another dog ended up being killed by another, other than human error. There's no sugar coating it and I wouldn't expect any support if I were you.
> 
> A dog who has killed another dog is a massive liability. I cannot express my seriousness in that sentiment. This never should have happened and if you are not 100% sure that it won't happen again, then you should absolutely place the dog elsewhere that it can be managed. This post really made me sick to my stomach..


It's not like this dog has ever showed signs of killing the beagle. They have been around each other since the beginning. There is no way you, I or the OP could have known or even suspected this would happen. Yes this dog did damage to another dog right before this, but that wasn't a dog the dogs were around all the time, it wandered on the property. My hope and I am sure everyone else would hope their dogs would not seriously attack a dog that wanders on to the property, but I'm not so sure we all an be positive it wouldn't be an issue. The question here isn't who is at fault, the OP accepts the blame, the OP does not want the dog to pay the price. The family on the other hand are feeling quite the opposite and are blaming the dog. I'm sure the OP would not have left the dogs together if they even suspected an issue. These are family dogs. The OP has started three threads on this and all of the sudden people are coming out of the woodwork. Obviously no one can see the dog and I think problems like this should never be addressed online. This is something that needs to be dealt with immediately in person. I can't imagine being in this situation but it's a very real possibility whenever there is more then one dog in the home. It's a hard lesson to learn and it's even harder when it's within the home and was never expected.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> It's not like this dog has ever showed signs of killing the beagle. They have been around each other since the beginning. There is no way you, I or the OP could have known or even suspected this would happen. Yes this dog did damage to another dog right before this, but that wasn't a dog the dogs were around all the time, it wandered on the property. My hope and I am sure everyone else would hope their dogs would not seriously attack a dog that wanders on to the property, but I'm not so sure we all an be positive it wouldn't be an issue. The question here isn't who is at fault, the OP accepts the blame, the OP does not want the dog to pay the price. The family on the other hand are feeling quite the opposite and are blaming the dog. I'm sure the OP would not have left the dogs together if they even suspected an issue. These are family dogs. The OP has started three threads on this and all of the sudden people are coming out of the woodwork. Obviously no one can see the dog and I think problems like this should never be addressed online. This is something that needs to be dealt with immediately in person. I can't imagine being in this situation but it's a very real possibility whenever there is more then one dog in the home. It's a hard lesson to learn and it's even harder when it's within the home and was never expected.


I agree, but placing emotion aside, I wish everyone would take another look at Bailiffs response. He is offering help and insight in a "neutral non emotional manner". I think that's the help the op is asking for in the form of support. We have all screwed up in our lives and we may do so again. Glass houses....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The OP knows that putting the dogs together so soon after the chaotic fight the day before wasn't a good idea, in hindsight. But it is true nonetheless. There are hormones or pharamones or some such stuff that takes a little time to come down after a fight. So the next day was way too soon to have the dogs that do not necessarily live together together.

In the midst of a fight a dog can transfer their attack onto another dog or person -- misdirected aggression. And this is where a child could be in danger. If the dogs are going at it and a child gets in between, trying to stop them, then a kid can get hurt. Management is key, and if adults are around when the family dogs are together, children should not be in any danger.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Can happen to anyone. I've had trainer friends who's dogs have been left alone for an hour or two never had issues before and they come back to dogs that have torn each other up.

I know people who have had crisis moments like this and that is the reason they became dog trainers, to make amends for things like this.

Take the lesson learn from it and don't repeat the mistakes again. Just don't blame the dog. Dogs are not moral beings. The dog was being a dog. It isn't evil or a bad seed or anything like that. It has genetic predispositions, it learned fighting was an option to resolve issues in the past and then when it was left to its own devices it went and resolved an issue in a tragic way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Can happen to anyone. I've had trainer friends who's dogs have been left alone for an hour or two never had issues before and they come back to dogs that have torn each other up.
> 
> I know people who have had crisis moments like this and that is the reason they became dog trainers, to make amends for things like this.
> 
> Take the lesson learn from it and don't repeat the mistakes again. Just don't blame the dog. Dogs are not moral beings. The dog was being a dog. It isn't evil or a bad seed or anything like that. It has genetic predispositions, it learned fighting was an option to resolve issues in the past and then when it was left to its own devices it went and resolved an issue in a tragic way.


Totally agree.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Sure, it can happen to anyone who decides to leave however many dogs completely unattended in a yard together. It happens in groups of dogs who are attended, so that's no surprise to me.

What I don't understand is the cry for sympathy. OP knew the options were to get a trainer or place the dog. But to come on here digging for sympathy? Why bother..


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Sure, it can happen to anyone who decides to leave however many dogs completely unattended in a yard together. It happens in groups of dogs who are attended, so that's no surprise to me.
> 
> What I don't understand is the cry for sympathy. OP knew the options were to get a trainer or place the dog. But to come on here digging for sympathy? Why bother..


I believe the OP came here to see if people thought she should do what her parents want: get rid of the dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I wouldn't. Things would change sure, but I'd keep the dog.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I may not be the popular opinion here, but I would never think of leaving dogs together like that unattended, and have a hard time feeling sympathy for you when another dog had to suffer the consequences because of irresponsible ownership. What support could you possibly be looking for? There is no justification as to why another dog ended up being killed by another, other than human error. There's no sugar coating it and I wouldn't expect any support if I were you.
> 
> *A dog who has killed another dog is a massive liability. I cannot express my seriousness in that sentiment. This never should have happened and if you are not 100% sure that it won't happen again, then you should absolutely place the dog elsewhere that it can be managed. *This post really made me sick to my stomach..


Then I should reiterate..


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I wouldn't. Things would change sure, but I'd keep the dog.


My dog killed another dog. We were at work. She was in a kennel with her litter. The neighbor's kids crossed our pasture with their hunting dog. Mine climbed the 6' chain link and killed their dog twice her size. Climbed back in the kennel with her pups. The dog wasn't dead when we got home. I offered to pay vet bills. They said no, the kids had to be taught a lesson so the dog bled out. (Frickin Texas). 

She was not a problem for the next 9 years unless another dog was attacking her first. Then she was a problem. Dog law.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> . (Frickin Texas).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


>


I get it!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, all the "hard truths" have been well stated...so we should move on from there:










In order to do that... first we have to know "if" the dog is staying put?? 

The attacking the kids thing is unlikely a dog that does not uh care for other dogs is not likely to attack humans.

Yes, it's now a dog killer! Not a lot of rescues are going to be eager to take that on! Steps should have been taken way before this happened! And sorry I don't recall the other three threads?? Was I in them???

But that aside as "Cesar" says...*dog live in the here and now!* and as Baillif said *"don't blame the dog..."*Part of that "process" is for the OP to let it go!

And that's not going to be easy! But sigh...like many things I have done with dogs to "accidently proof them" letting go is something I had to do with Rocky...he gave Gunther a very hard time and Gunther passed before I was able to "fix" the issue!!

I had a lot of resentment towards Rocky...but he was still with me and Gunther was gone. I had to let the anger and resentment go!

It's not easy but "if" you keep the dog...that is step one!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Sure, it can happen to anyone who decides to leave however many dogs completely unattended in a yard together. It happens in groups of dogs who are attended, so that's no surprise to me.
> 
> What I don't understand is the cry for sympathy. OP knew the options were to get a trainer or place the dog. But to come on here digging for sympathy? Why bother..


I don't see it that way. The OP is not looking for sympathy, they are looking for a way to explain the difference between a dog that is dog aggressive versus human aggressive. The OP has asked questions in another thread and not one person explained how a dog is still hyped up from a previous fight or how a dog that has done damage has figured out what kind of power they now have. If all of this was addressed in the first thread, the beagle might still be alive. So if we want to take it further let's blame everyone that did or didn't offer advice leading up to this. This is why these issues should not be on a public forum. One piece of bad advice or lack of advice can be deadly. The only advice that should be offered is see a trainer asap. Most people are not thinking my dog got into a fight yesterday so he is probably still in that zone still. People visually see a dog that seems to be his normal self and move forward. There is no way for one to know the dog is still in kill mode.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

First of all I did not come here for sympathy, I did however ask people to "be kind", not because I can't handle the truth... But because I think there are such ways to handle such a sensitive subject. I mean, these are my dogs we are talking about here... Anyone would be as upset, hurt and confused as I am right now, I don't need someone sitting beside me rubbing my back telling me "everything's going to be okay"... Because it's not, my dog is dead and I now have another that I have some serious decisions to make about. But I do not need to be talked to like some idiot that hasn't the slightest clue about anything. 
If you really were so upset by this post, and only had things to say like I don't need sympathy, then you didn't need to comment on it.... I'm pretty sure the only sympathy I have got is over the loss of my dog. 

I KNOW that these dogs cannot be left alone with other dogs and that was decided (unfortunately) AFTER we got home and saw drew, it was decided before we even left the house to take her to the clinic. THAT is not the question I have presented... Again I KNOW I'm an idiot, for leaving all those dogs together while we went out... That is ALSO not the question I have presented. Yes I have mentioned that I am broken right now, but if you took that as a "feel bad for me" comment, you need to re read the OP. 

Going forward, any comments if you feel the need to write something like this Please feel free to write it.... And then delete it... In a time like this, I do NOT need negative remarks about myself. I DO NOT need to be reminded that THIS IS MY FAULT. 

Again, thank you to every one taking the time to give me CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, rather than personal attackS.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I never attacked you. I said I don't feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for the dead dog. No "personal attacks" at all, you're just not happy that I said what I was actually thinking. Nothing that I said could be interpreted as an "attack". It's my opinion.

I gave advice as well. And then quoted myself in bold go reiterate.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I do feel sorry for you. Yes, it is completely your fault, and you know that. Our brains are very stupid sometimes. If I were in your shoes, I would feel the way you do. I can't imagine the pain you are going through. 
I think everything I would advise has been mentioned. 
Do not EVER leave the dogs unattended again. EVER. Even with each other.
I wouldn't strictly blame Wile E. You weren't there, you don't know. It could have been the beagles that got into it and Wile E joined in. The gsds could have gotten into it, the beagle joined in and Wile E re directed. You don't know and if you place him and it happens again with Bob, you will feel even more hurt.
Definitely have a trainer come in to assess what is going on. 
Dog aggression does NOT equal human aggression. I have owned many severely dog aggressive dogs in my life and not one of them have ever been human aggressive. My gsd growing up would kill other dogs, she lived with two children and all of our friends and birthday parties and camping adventures. Amazing dog with children, just not with dogs. This being said, someone else mentioned that you don't know what is starting this so he needs to be evaluated to make sure the same triggers won't happen with people.
My concern is this: how old is Wile E? If memory serves me correctly, he is about a year old? If so, he is coming into his own and showing his true temperament. Which is clearly not what you though it was. Your life with your dogs (should you keep him) will be very different from here on out. His issues with other dogs could potentially get worse as he matures, and this is where a good trainer needs to evaluate the dogs so you know what you are dealing with. 
I do think you have decisions to make. Personally, I would keep the dog. But you have your family to think of (meaning that they know what he is capable of with other animals), you parents to keep happy. How easy is your life going to be in keeping this dog? I think it is totally do able, but if it comes at the expense of family stability, then that is something to consider.
I send you and your family strength to get through this, whatever outcome is decided.
If there is ANYTHING I can do to help, please let me know. I know dog aggression and unstable dogs all too well. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you want to chat.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Candice, I am so sorry for what you are going through. You have kicked yourself in the butt, now you have a decision to make, for you, for your family, for WileE and for Bob. You have been given good advice in some posts, read them again. Think long and hard, then do what is right for everyone concerned. Good luck. Deb


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Candice, my concern would actually be with your daughter. Dog aggression may not be the same as people aggression, but the problem is your daughter being the one to let the dogs out when you aren't there, being there alone with them when they got ahold of the neighbors dog, that kind of thing is what you can't let happen.

Whatever is going on between the two dogs when you aren't there, competition for, conflict over, whatever. Your daughter is right in the middle of it. You have a dog that has shown you he's not one to just nip. In my opinion a young male that would kill an old female like that, he's not going to restrain himself when he bites. I know you said he's fine with people and your kids, but I'd kennel him from now on until your home to completely manage everything.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Candice, 
As soon as I read your post, Imtexted my husband and asked him to begin separating our two dogs anytime he needs to leave them unsupervised. They are 12monts old, are intact, male littermates. One occasionally tries to " manage" the other one's space and has, on two occasions, attacked his brother, drawing blood on one occasion ( slight ear injury). 
Before today, we have been ok leaving them together and unsupervised for short periods of time ( a couple of hours). During that time they have free run of the house and can also use dog door to go to their dog run and out into the larger fenced back yard. 

Your post hit me hard. Intellectually, my husband and I both knew this was in safe but we were " hopeful" they would be ok. We were in denial. When we are both at work we take them to our petsitter but we hadn't totally figured out a good plan for short periods of time. Now we will begin leaving one inside and one in the garage/ dog run so they can't see each other and are both safe.

I understand how your situation happened and, of course hindsight is 20/20. I appreciate that you shared your story as it may have saved our boys. 
My husband just texted me again to tell me he plans to build a second dog run so both dogs will their own space for those unsupervised times. Your story woke us up. Thank you and know that I am sorry for your loss and your family situation. Maybe you can offer a full- proof option for your boys so family members can be assured they and their pets will be separated from your boys. Good luck.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Candice, my concern would actually be with your daughter. Dog aggression may not be the same as people aggression, but the problem is your daughter being the one to let the dogs out when you aren't there, being there alone with them when they got ahold of the neighbors dog, that kind of thing is what you can't let happen.
> 
> Whatever is going on between the two dogs when you aren't there, competition for, conflict over, whatever. Your daughter is right in the middle of it. You have a dog that has shown you he's not one to just nip. In my opinion a young male that would kill an old female like that, he's not going to restrain himself when he bites. I know you said he's fine with people and your kids, but I'd kennel him from now on until your home to completely manage everything.



Oh absolutely, we have talked with the kids and it is understood by everyone in the house that the boys are to be crated at all times when we are not home.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Candice,
> 
> As soon as I read your post, Imtexted my husband and asked him to begin separating our two dogs anytime he needs to leave them unsupervised. They are 12monts old, are intact, male littermates. One occasionally tries to " manage" the other one's space and has, on two occasions, attacked his brother, drawing blood on one occasion ( slight ear injury).
> 
> ...



It's scary. I hate that I did this, I hate that I pulled a "it will never happen to me"... It did... And it's really scary, and heart wrenching. I had to learn my lesson... We all had to learn our lesson that day in the most awful way. 
The boys are now under a very strict routine. I just had a great conversation with my trainer ... Who knows both of the boys. 
She gave me lots of great ideas, and tips for our future training starting ASAP... 
Muzzles have been ordered for both dogs. 
The dogs are on a new "one at a time" outside routine when we can't be out there with them. 
They both need to learn to be a little bit more independent, because they feed off each other's energy.. One gets riled up.. The other does. 
There's a long road a head of us, I understand that... And I'm prepared For it... I wouldn't have gotten into the breed if I couldn't handle the bad with the good. I'm sure there will be times coming up where I'm going to feel frustrated... But I am willing to do what I need to do to keep these dogs... And everyone in my family safe.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

bob_barker said:


> It's scary. I hate that I did this, I hate that I pulled a "it will never happen to me"... It did... And it's really scary, and heart wrenching. I had to learn my lesson... We all had to learn our lesson that day in the most awful way.
> The boys are now under a very strict routine. I just had a great conversation with my trainer ... Who knows both of the boys.
> She gave me lots of great ideas, and tips for our future training starting ASAP...
> Muzzles have been ordered for both dogs.
> ...


Been following this.. and I don't have experience in your situation but I completely appreciate you sharing your story. You know where the fault lies and you have come to terms with that.. now is time to move forward and press on! It looks like you are doing just that. Keep up with the trainer and management and don't get complacent, that's when things happen. Looking forward to updates on your boys, sorry for the loss of your beagle  it's never easy no matter how they go. sending prayers your way to give you strength through this time!


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

I don't have much to add, except a GIGANTIC HUG to you and to your kids. How are they? I can imagine what they are going through. Very traumatic for them, not only the dog incident, but the family emotional drama as well. 

I would advise crating the dog, fail safe management and just rest. Get to that peaceful state (well, as close as you can, considering), and don't make difficult decisions under stress. Listen to the good advice here, try to put a moratorium on the family drama (tell your parents you will take a few weeks to consider the next steps, but right now you need some peace and quiet to come to the right decision) and trust your informed heart. 

Key: TRUST (commit to 100%) your INFORMED (get info, make sure you don't have blinders on) HEART (your gut instinct, having assessed everything).

More (((((hugs)))))


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

So the boys breeder just left, they came to the house and spent a few hours talking with us and observing the boys behaviours. 
They assured us that they really don't think that these boys would ever be aggressive towards people... Especially my kids... They brought their 3 year old grandson to watch them with kids... Boy that boy could put them in their place.. Really cute to watch. 

They agreed with the steps that I will be taking and the precautions that we will have in place. 
They pointed out a few things that we need to nip in the bud, which we never put together with their reactions to other dogs. 

It felt reassuring having them come and see the dogs, and watch how the dogs interact with us and with "strange" people coming in the yard with a small child they have never met. ...: I think the boys remembered them.. It was neat to see it from the other side. 

Thank you for all of your advice everyone it has been so helpful, and has really eased my mind that I'm making the right decision. 

I will keep you all posted with our progress


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

For now... Here is a picture of the boys. I will love them forever with all of my heart.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are beautiful dogs. 

Most likely they will never attack a child, UNLESS they are fighting with each other or another dog. Letting the dogs outside on their own is a bad idea. They need to be supervised, fence or no fence. Can one be out in the fenced yard while you are inside and can hear if anything is going on? Probably fine, so long as your fence is secure. 

But if you let a dog out there while you are not home, you cannot prevent your dog from fence fighting with whatever might come along, on lead or off lead. You may be surprised, but some people think that if some dog is going nutso at their fence, they think its funny and will walk their dog by there over and again teasing the dog behind the fence.

A solid six foot fence that cannot be dug under and is locked with some form of pad lock will keep most dogs home. A dog that is being incited to riot, may climb that fence or try to jump it. They can be injured, and if they get out, then someone's dog is in serious trouble, and if they try to protect the dog -- that is how a LOT of dog bites happen. Then, you are looking at a major bill, probably a lawsuit, and your dog's fate may no longer be in your hands.

I am not being mean. I am just not sugar coating any of this. I would keep the dog but I would make sure the dog could not possibly attack another dog. And, I have the type of kennel that makes that possible. I would never leave the dog unsupervised with children, not because I feared the dog would attack the child, but if the dog managed to attack another dog, or was frustrated at the fence while another dog was on the other side, the child would be in a dangerous situation.

That being said, take it with a grain of salt what the breeder says about your dog. They do not want the dog back. They want you to keep the dog. The rule of thumb is that dog aggression is not people aggression. I would have more faith in him/her if they gave you better advice -- warned you about leaving the do outside unattended, warned you about the possibility of the dog misdirecting its aggression in the heat of battle.

I wish you luck with your dog. With good management, your dog, your kids, everyone else's dogs can be safe. It _is _a wake-up call though. And, it isn't normal for a young dog to attack a bitch to the point that it dies. If it was a Yorkie, a six pound elderly dog, it doesn't take that much, but the beagle is a pretty robust dog and a pack dog, and long before she was so cut up, that fight should have ended on its own. Most males are much more tolerant of females, than males, and males are generally easier same sex than females. We don't know what happened, but in the few instances per year when dogs actually cause the death of a human, usually the dogs have history. It is usually more than one dog, not always. And again, lots of people get bitten when they try to intervene -- the one lady tried to save her cat and the dog redirected onto her.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

sorry to be reading this  my neighbor has 2 beagles and my lexie would love to eat them (she is not good around small dogs), they also have 2 little toddlers which she adores. I hope you can work this out with a good trainer, good luck to you


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Small steps!! 

Last night I took Wile E to petsmart to get a new ball for them. There were a couple other dogs in there and he was a little nervous but I just kept on truckin and didn't feed into his nerves. 
Tonight took him for a walk around the neighbourhood and we passed a bunch of other dogs, one of them being loose ? and he was an angel !! He didn't even react to the little dogs barking at them from their yard! 
I think having him in his "In Training" vest made people respect him a little more as we were walking past. 
Proud of him. 
Small steps one at a time.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

bob_barker said:


> Small steps!!
> 
> Last night I took Wile E to petsmart to get a new ball for them. There were a couple other dogs in there and he was a little nervous but I just kept on truckin and didn't feed into his nerves.
> Tonight took him for a walk around the neighbourhood and we passed a bunch of other dogs, one of them being loose ? and he was an angel !! He didn't even react to the little dogs barking at them from their yard!
> ...


Wow. I just have to say, that after what's occurred in the last 10 days, the last thing I would have done is taken him into Petsmart. That was not a "small step" IMO. Did the trainers know you had planned to do this so soon?

Please understand, I am trying to help make this work for you, not criticizing. Just because your didn't have an issue with Petsmart OR the little dogs you walked by does not mean that you are no longer sitting on a powder keg ready to explode.

If you look back on the posts here, on this thread - specifically the trainers posts, you will see that the problem didn't just vanish. You don't know what triggered the 2 attacks with Wile E. Therefore, you cannot predict when the next will happen. I am in 100% agreement with the trainers who posted here, that your dog has learned how to deal with dogs he has some type of issue with. Very hard to "untrain" once this is learned and by your dog's knowledge, was extremely successful - in his mind.

It didn't just "go away". Please don't put your dog in a situation like "Petsmart" without consulting a trainer. In other words - slow down You get one "aggressive" dog walking toward yours in a place like Petsmart and it's going to be "clean up in isle 4".


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## Dragonheart (Jan 8, 2014)

Good for you!!! progress is such a wonderful thing. Keep on trucking


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Wow. I just have to say, that after what's occurred in the last 10 days, the last thing I would have done is taken him into Petsmart. That was not a "small step" IMO. Did the trainers know you had planned to do this so soon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I should have clarified as well, we went when I knew it would be quieter and when I saw another dog in a particular isle etc, I would walk past it and go to another rather than getting close. We never came closer than 30 feet with any other dog. I had discussed this with our trainer before going in as I was hesitant to bring him. 
With the type of reaction he has always had to dogs while I am present she didn't see this being an issue. 
After going as much as I was happy with how he behaved, we won't be going back for a while and we will be sticking closer to home.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Was the trainer with you when you went in to Petsmart?


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Was the trainer with you when you went in to Petsmart?



No she wasn't.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm sorry, but I don't think that was a wise decision. It's too much too soon. And if you're trainer was the one that encouraged you to go, alone, I would be looking for another trainer ASAP! Lyka has bitten a dog, and the last thing I would do is take her to a place where there are many dogs, most not well behaved from my experience. 

I fear another "help, he attacked again" post.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

jschrest said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't think that was a wise decision.



I knew not many people would. But like I said, I won't be going back for quite a while.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The dog hasn't attacked another dog when a person was present. The dog is resolving issues on his own. I know that when Midnite was reactive we started outside of Petsmart then gradually moved in, but Midnite would sound like he wanted to kill another dog, looked like it too. This particular dog needs to know that he can't take matters into his own hands. If the OP sits at home with the dog, she is looking to get a dog that will be ten times worse. I think that going to Petsmart when not crowded, keeping distance and not acting like anything is wrong or nervous is good for this dog. The biggest thing with reactive dogs is the fear that the handler has goes right down that leash. Once the owner has control and the dog knows it, the dog will behave differently. To the OP, are you using a prong or what did the trainer say about a prong?


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

I've never used a prong on him, he has never been a puller. He always walks loose lead right at my side. I'm not anti prong at all, just figured since he's not a puller it wouldn't make a difference with him. 

He's also not a lunger when he sees other dogs, he gets stiff (nervously) and tries to hide behind me... Unless I just keep moving.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> I've never used a prong on him, he has never been a puller. He always walks loose lead right at my side. I'm not anti prong at all, just figured since he's not a puller it wouldn't make a difference with him.
> 
> He's also not a lunger when he sees other dogs, he gets stiff (nervously) and tries to hide behind me... Unless I just keep moving.


The nervous ones are the ones to watch. Was he always like that? Did the trainer go over building his confidence? Have you ever played tug with him or games where he wins and you can see he is proud of winning(yes you can see this, I'm not crazy I swear)


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

He's always lacked a bit of confidence since the day we picked him up.
He LOVES when I praise him like that, we just played ball for a bit in the yard and every time he would catch the ball I'd go over the top with it and the look on his face is just adorable when he is proud of him self. 
I do it on our walks too, when he is doing really well I'll tell him and he will look up at me as if to say "yeah!".. Got a cute video of it tonight actually. 
The last couple weeks we've been doing a lot more one on one playing with the boys, one at a time out in the yard to play with us so they don't steal each other's "thunder" and it's not always a competition. Good idea?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are different types of aggression. A dog can be an angel when off his own turf, if the dog has territorial aggression, barrier aggression, etc. A dog can be awesome with dogs outside of the pack, and still fight with dogs within the pack if he is fighting for dominance within the pack -- there is a such thing. 

The things you are doing with your dog may or may not give you the information you are looking for. Don't let it lull you into lowering your management precautions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> He's always lacked a bit of confidence since the day we picked him up.
> He LOVES when I praise him like that, we just played ball for a bit in the yard and every time he would catch the ball I'd go over the top with it and the look on his face is just adorable when he is proud of him self.
> I do it on our walks too, when he is doing really well I'll tell him and he will look up at me as if to say "yeah!".. Got a cute video of it tonight actually.
> The last couple weeks we've been doing a lot more one on one playing with the boys, one at a time out in the yard to play with us so they don't steal each other's "thunder" and it's not always a competition. Good idea?


They are individual dogs so yes individual time is needed. You'll find that what one likes the other doesn't and vice versa. He needs to be sure of himself. Believe me, since I have several dogs I know that they all have different likes that I use with each individual dog.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

selzer said:


> The things you are doing with your dog may or may not give you the information you are looking for. Don't let it lull you into lowering your management precautions.




Definitely not... Things have changed quite a bit for them around here, and it's pretty amazing how quickly they have picked up the new routines. Waiting their turn to go outside when we aren't out there, waiting back while I am preparing meals, more crate time, no more dogs on the bed (I think it's harder for me than it is them ) etc. 
They seem more relaxed this past week than they have in a while. 

I know there is no magical cure, but living in a more relaxed setting definitely won't hurt.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Have you actually gotten a trainer to come evaluate the dogs? Not the breeder, but an actual trainer? It's great that they are making improvements at home, but a dog that has seriously wounded and then again wounded another to the point the dog died warrants a lot more than what has been done, with the hands on help of a trainer.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

jschrest said:


> Have you actually gotten a trainer to come evaluate the dogs? Not the breeder, but an actual trainer? It's great that they are making improvements at home, but a dog that has seriously wounded and then again wounded another to the point the dog died warrants a lot more than what has been done, with the hands on help of a trainer.



Yes, they have both been evaluated by a trainer. The same trainer that we went through all our obedience and CGN training with. 
The fact that they are doing great at home means I need to go further than home rather than sitting in the same spot. They won't get any socialization, or further ahead with anything if I don't take them out. 
I know what they can handle. 
I wouldn't take Bob into petsmart because I know he reacts completely different when he sees dogs, he's vocal and obnoxious... He will be staying far away from there until we get that under better control. Wile E does not react the same way, he is quiet and has never once lunged at the end of his lead, no matter the other dog that is passing by.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Q[UOTE=llombardo;7091337]The dog hasn't attacked another dog when a person was present. The dog is resolving issue s on his own.[/QUOTE]

The dog didn't attack anything prior to 10 days ago. This is not something that was present since he was a puppy. It just started. How can any situation be deemed safe or unsafe it this is a new behavior? How is the dog resolving the issue on his own? If the dog can do that - he should be treating people who cannot resolve their own issues.....

I would be all about working with a trainer to identify the trigger points as nothing in the past is enough to establish what these new trigger points may be. Knowing this (if it can be identified) will open up Wile E's world again. 

I have owned a dog that has killed another dog and wounded several others. Her "trigger point" was not existent until she was over 3 years old. Then, she was fine with any other dog in any situation - unless they had similar issues and did not show indifference or submission. Body language flashed in seconds from friendly to you must die. It was horrible and no way to predict.

I'm all for this not being a problem anymore and just don't leave him alone with other dogs, but from what I've experienced - you need to know your dogs temperament so there are no surprises or accidental exposures to the stressor. Bailiff knows his dogs, yet, there is one that is unpredictable - he does not put him in certain situations regardless of location for a reason.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> Yes, they have both been evaluated by a trainer. The same trainer that we went through all our obedience and CGN training with.
> The fact that they are doing great at home means I need to go further than home rather than sitting in the same spot. They won't get any socialization, or further ahead with anything if I don't take them out.
> I know what they can handle.
> I wouldn't take Bob into petsmart because I know he reacts completely different when he sees dogs, he's vocal and obnoxious... He will be staying far away from there until we get that under better control. Wile E does not react the same way, he is quiet and has never once lunged at the end of his lead, no matter the other dog that is passing by.


I agree that they need to be out and about. The worse thing you can do is put them in a bubble. As long as you know your dogs and your prepared for any and all situations it's good. Has the trainer suggested moving forward in obedience classes?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Didn't read all the posts, but Wille E (is that right?) might be dog aggressive but that doesn't mean he will be a threat to you or your children.

Dogs aren't people and they will do what dogs do.

You don't know what precipitated the attack but saw the results.

If you can keep Wille in such a way that he doesn't interact with other dogs, than I see no reason to rehome him.

So sorry for what you've been through.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I would be all about working with a trainer to identify the trigger points as nothing in the past is enough to establish what these new trigger points may be. Knowing this (if it can be identified) will open up Wile E's world again.



We have established what the two incidents had in common. Both attacks were on small, dominant dogs that were VERY vocal about their dominance... The schnauzer who stands in her backyard and taunts the boys by barking consistently until someone would physically come out and bring her inside. And Drew, our beagle, who was probably the most dominant dog I have ever owned, would bark if the boys even looked at her the wrong way, If they walked past her, or breathed in her direction. The dogs always just ignored her when this happened, because I was there to make her stop. 

This is the only thing ... As of now... That would make sense to be the trigger. So we are working off of that, since it's what we have to go with.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I agree that they need to be out and about. The worse thing you can do is put them in a bubble. As long as you know your dogs and your prepared for any and all situations it's good. Has the trainer suggested moving forward in obedience classes?



They have both completed all of the obedience classes and CGN, so I am thinking of putting them in Rally-O to keep them out and doing something. She did say that we could "redo" one of the ones they have already completed.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> They have both completed all of the obedience classes and CGN, so I am thinking of putting them in Rally-O to keep them out and doing something. She did say that we could "redo" one of the ones they have already completed.


Nose work might be a good idea too.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Q[UOTE=llombardo;7091337]The dog hasn't attacked another dog when a person was present. The dog is resolving issue s on his own.


 The dog didn't attack anything prior to 10 days ago. This is not something that was present since he was a puppy. It just started. How can any situation be deemed safe or unsafe it this is a new behavior? How is the dog resolving the issue on his own? If the dog can do that - he should be treating people who cannot resolve their own issues.....

I would be all about working with a trainer to identify the trigger points as nothing in the past is enough to establish what these new trigger points may be. Knowing this (if it can be identified) will open up Wile E's world again. 

I have owned a dog that has killed another dog and wounded several others. Her "trigger point" was not existent until she was over 3 years old. Then, she was fine with any other dog in any situation - unless they had similar issues and did not show indifference or submission. Body language flashed in seconds from friendly to you must die. It was horrible and no way to predict.

I'm all for this not being a problem anymore and just don't leave him alone with other dogs, but from what I've experienced - you need to know your dogs temperament so there are no surprises or accidental exposures to the stressor. Bailiff knows his dogs, yet, there is one that is unpredictable - he does not put him in certain situations regardless of location for a reason.[/QUOTE]

*The dog has always lacked confidence and shows signs of nervousness since he was a pup. Although he hasn't attacked prior to this it probably has been building up. If left on his own he is choosing fight over flight. When he is with his owner he is choosing flight over fight. He needs to be neutral to call it successful and that might never happen. Who is going to leave their dog to test it, that would be dangerous and not recommended. Neither incident involved him on a leash or someone present to stop him. No one was there to see what triggered either situation. What we do know is that he doesn't do this when his owner is present, we take that and build off that.*


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Nose work might be a good idea too.



I like that idea. Fun for all of us!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand what you are saying, and I hope it works. We agree to disagree.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> I like that idea. Fun for all of us!


What's good about this is that when you go into the area to search for stuff some places have it in a room, so it's only you and the dog, no other dogs around.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> What's good about this is that when you go into the area to search for stuff some places have it in a room, so it's only you and the dog, no other dogs around.



I'm going to look into this ! Thanks !


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well three years old and this happened??? Must be a GSD thing?? I guess this is where "responsable" Pitt/Pitt mix, owner have "ironically" an advantage! 

Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix mix rolled out the box, not much caring for other dogs! So ignoring other dogs started early! And I have had two occasions where dogs "unexpectedly" wound up in our yard and in his face!

Our annoying neighbors still have there little piece of crap little dog, thanks to my hard work! On two separate occasions two different dogs got in Gunther face and Struddel (Boxer) was wing dog! The little dog was bark, bark, bark, little dog did not step forward and Gunther never stepped back but he did not attack and Strudell was in the rear waiting for a cue! That could have ended badly!

I said Good boy... daddy's got this and got the dog out of his face! Second time, neighbor's dog was in the back yard, came through the fence, same deal. My guys held ground but did not move!

On these occasions the dogs were unobserved and they did do as they had been trained even on there own property,ignore other dogs! So it can be done, but yes it helps if you "know" early on you have a problem! Not really liking the fact that GSD's are capable of "hiding" issues like this for years???

The Petco thing...yeah..."bubble dog" you can't fix it by hiding the dog! OP did exercise common sense. Leash was loose and she now seems to see the signs of trouble! Slight pull sideways if you see him starting to "stiffen" would be helpful to break his concentration and if it's in a store a fabric muzzle could have been used but it appears there was no need.

Not sure what the plan of action would have been "if" there were to be a problem??? But here is what it looks "if" the dog gets out of hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwcvjWOaII&list=PLB6f2gzhz_Ak6LI9pCPSjyvzZNnU2Y1I-&index=3

I could say how far in it is but... hey I found it so those that want to know should have to do some work! 

By and large though, yes you do have to expose him to other dogs to fix this! I just think a lot of folks were surprised at how quickly your moving!

But I guess folks want to "stress" that what a dog does under "supervision" is one thing and what he does unsupervised...can be quite another!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

bob_barker said:


> We have established what the two incidents had in common. Both attacks were on small, dominant dogs that were VERY vocal about their dominance... The schnauzer who stands in her backyard and taunts the boys by barking consistently until someone would physically come out and bring her inside. And Drew, our beagle, who was probably the most dominant dog I have ever owned, would bark if the boys even looked at her the wrong way, If they walked past her, or breathed in her direction. The dogs always just ignored her when this happened, because I was there to make her stop.
> 
> This is the only thing ... As of now... That would make sense to be the trigger. So we are working off of that, since it's what we have to go with.


A dog barking at your dog's from their yard does not necessarily = dominant or taunting. It could quite be the opposite as in fearful or just plain excited. 

My dog barks at other dogs from his yard, he's not being dominant or taunting. I'm sorry but that's a cop out. You have some serious behaviour issues IMO and your job now is to make sure it never happens again. I would not find it acceptable for my dog to kill anything that walks into "his" yard. I wouldn't find it acceptable for him to attack someone for walking into my house. That's not a reasonable threat to me.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I do not think an obedience and CGC trainer is the right choice in this situation, I would be bringing in a behaviorist experienced with the breed. I also would muzzle train this dog and have him muzzled whenever he's in a location where other strange dogs will be.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I would not find it acceptable for my dog to kill anything that walks into "his" yard. I wouldn't find it acceptable for him to attack someone for walking into my house. That's not a reasonable threat to me.



I never said I found it acceptable. It's actually quite the opposite. That's why I am working on this.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> I do not think an obedience and CGC trainer is the right choice in this situation, I would be bringing in a behaviorist experienced with the breed. I also would muzzle train this dog and have him muzzled whenever he's in a location where other strange dogs will be.



Who said she wasn't?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

bob_barker said:


> We have established what the two incidents had in common. Both attacks were on small, dominant dogs that were VERY vocal about their dominance... The schnauzer who stands in her backyard and taunts the boys by barking consistently until someone would physically come out and bring her inside.


This makes me believe you found it "understandable" that your dog did what he did. Making excuses is how it came across.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Saphire said:


> This makes me believe you found it "understandable" that your dog did what he did. Making excuses is how it came across.



Not making excuses.... Trying to get to the root of the problem, as of now this is the only thing that we can put in common with the two attacks. 

It's not "understandable"... It's not acceptable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

People on here have dogs that kill rabbits, raccoons and squirrels that enter their yard and it's not looked down on, in fact most shrug it off as prey drive. None of these things are a threat either but it's ok as long as it's not a dog? I would be horrified if my dog mauled or killed anything, but at the same time it is not only their home, it's their property, which extends to the yard. I spend lots of time in my yard, do I can completely see how guarding the inside transfers to the yard. The kids play out there, we cook out there, and we eat out there. I have done everything possible to keep all creatures out. I wasn't counting on baby birds falling from a tree, but even then both Apollo and Midnite found one and did not attempt to kill them. They indicated they were there by pawing and barking at the little guys. I'm not so sure it would be the same for a larger animals. 

I can not stand it when dogs or kids are on the other side of the fence bothering a dog, they are looking for trouble and it should never happen. It is frustrating for me to see, I can't imagine how the dog feels


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This is strictly MY opinion and I have no University degree or research papers to back it.

I do expect my dog to differentiate between rabbits (prey animal) and dogs. I would not be and have not been upset when my dog catches and eats a rabbit. Coyotes hunt prey animals aka rabbits, chickens etc. without hunting and eating each other. 
I don't allow my dog to decide who comes into my home or yard. I would have failed should my dog kill another dog.....ever. I don't believe dogs taunt each other. They want to go or not so learning to read your dog is our responsibility.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Oh wow people. I live in the same city as Candace, and although we have not met, I have known her trainer since I was a child. Her trainer has 30 years of dog training experienced. She owns rottweilers and pit bulls, and her pitties are all rescue dogs. Trust me, this lady knows dog aggression and how to handle it. Why is everyone questioning this?
And who's to say Wile E is actually dog aggressive? From what I have read the dog sounds very insecure and fearful of dogs outside of his comfort zone. He attacked dogs he knows and dogs he has a good advantage over, and it was all in his comfort zone. I would say this is more of a dog who is nervous about his world, and takes leadership in the small situations he feels comfortable in. Not excusing him, and honestly I'd rather deal with an all out dog aggressive dog, but not once has this dog shown aggression to other dogs in all of the classes it has been in. 
I think he does need to be taken out, he needs to gain confidence, he needs to feel secure in his owner that she will deal with situations. I personally would be muzzling him in places like Petsmart because the dog was clearly stressed and you don't know how he would react and you can't control the other dogs. Muzzling him makes the owner feel more secure and will then make the dog feel more secure. But he definitely needs to be leaving the property and having training sessions outside of his comfort zone. 
"In accordance with the standards of the Animal Behaviour Society a certified animal behaviorist must have at least a Masters of Science in either Ethology, Psychology, or Applied Animal Behavior, must have apprenticed for an extended period under an applied animal behaviourist certified by the Animal Behaviour Society, and must have conducted a significant amount of peer reviewed behavioral research." For the record, the only 'behaviourists' we have access to here are from out of town, charge at least $400 per visit (plus travel time) and are purely science based. So basically you will have someone come into your house, fit your dog for a muzzle, fit it for a gentle leader, watches how it interacts in your home, teaches you classical conditioning and basically writes your dog off if there are serious problems. Basically you pay a lot of money to be told if your dog is dominant or submissive. For most dogs around here with serious issues, an actual behaviourist is not the way to go.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

bob_barker said:


> Not making excuses.... Trying to get to the root of the problem, as of now this is the only thing that we can put in common with the two attacks.
> 
> It's not "understandable"... It's not acceptable.


I would be trying to get to the root of the problem too. I think if it were me, I would contact a few trainers and ask these three questions after I described the situation.

1. Do you have experience with this.

2. Would you be able to create test situations to see if this behavior is isolated to certain stress situations so the "triggers" can be identified?

3. Do you believe that this new behavior may carry over into other areas?

I see what you are saying with the similarity on the two situations. The other similarity could be that the dog will react this way regardless of the location if he feels unable to get out of the stress situation. If it's fight of flee maybe. I think this could be tested for, but I'm not sure. A qualified trainer should be able to answer these basic questions though, and that, would give you more to go on. I would expect some fairly direct answers to these questions and would be wary of any trainer that gave vague or rambling responses.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> 1. Do you have experience with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These questions have been asked.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Candice - I have a male GSD who will not allow any other dogs on his property. I have no doubt he would kill them. He will not tolerate any of the other male dogs (intact or not) within his own pack. I manage him. 

He is totally an aloof dog and will ignore dogs / people when off property. When on property, he'll check out people and then sit back and observe. That is his way. 

He isn't a monster. He doesn't eat children. He doesn't attack us in our sleep. He is more difficult to manage than my other dogs. And that's OK. I've always been hyper vigilant with him because he's an aloof dog.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Lilie said:


> Candice - I have a male GSD who will not allow any other dogs on his property. I have no doubt he would kill them. He will not tolerate any of the other male dogs (intact or not) within his own pack. I manage him.
> 
> He is totally an aloof dog and will ignore dogs / people when off property. When on property, he'll check out people and then sit back and observe. That is his way.
> 
> He isn't a monster. He doesn't eat children. He doesn't attack us in our sleep. He is more difficult to manage than my other dogs. And that's OK. I've always been hyper vigilant with him because he's an aloof dog.


There is the key. Management.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

You post on a public forum for advice/help, you don't get to choose how those people are going to respond. 

Your dog attacked 2 dogs, injuring both, causing the death of one. In your first thread, you were given advice to keep the seperated, to not allow them alone with other dogs. A week later, another attack.

Now you have people telling you taking that dog into a very public place with dogs that may or may not give your dog "attitude" or "a look," and you defend your actions.

Obviously the dog needs to be worked, along side and with other dogs. In a CONTROLLED environment. Petsmart is the least controlled environment I could think of. At least my local petsmart, and others I have been in in other states, are chalk full of annoying, yapping, uncontrolled dogs. Sure, they are leashed, but most aren't controlled. 

I find it hard to believe a respected and experienced trainer advised you to take your dog into petsmart. And if she did, and didn't accompany you, I'd be questioning just how respectable of a trainer she is. 

Your dog may have been fine around other dogs in your presence in the past, but his behaviors have changed suddenly and drastically with the last two attacks. It's not far fetched to think his behavior could just as suddenly and drastically change with you present and not on guard for it. 

And if your trainer owns so many breeds, why is she not working your dog with her dogs instead of sending you into petsmart?

My dog is dog aggressive. To any other breed than GSD's. She's happy go lucky around them. But that doesn't mean I say go for it and let her go romp and play with them because she has never tried to attack one. And I certainly don't take her into public places with other dogs to let her work it out on her own. I just got her evaluated, and her trainer is going to work on her with these issues in a controlled environment, with dogs that have solid calm temperaments, with both of us present. That seems, to my unprofessional opinion, the sign of a respectable experienced trainer. If she ever suggested I take her to petsmart or a dog park, if thank her for her time and send her on her way.

You are being irresponsible in a very dangerous situation. And we've all read the posts were you being irresponsible has caused two attacks. So don't be surprised when we tell you that taking him to petsmart is another irresponsible idea.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Mikelia said:


> Oh wow people. I live in the same city as Candace, and although we have not met, I have known her trainer since I was a child. Her trainer has 30 years of dog training experienced. She owns rottweilers and pit bulls, and her pitties are all rescue dogs. Trust me, this lady knows dog aggression and how to handle it. Why is everyone questioning this?
> .


Maybe because she told OP to take her dog to Petsmart? 

If she owns such great and well-trained dogs, why is she not having OP work with her own dogs instead of sending her client to a place where there are so many out of control, untrained ones, handled by clueless owners?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saphire said:


> This is strictly MY opinion and I have no University degree or research papers to back it.
> 
> I do expect my dog to differentiate between rabbits (prey animal) and dogs. I would not be and have not been upset when my dog catches and eats a rabbit. Coyotes hunt prey animals aka rabbits, chickens etc. without hunting and eating each other.
> I don't allow my dog to decide who comes into my home or yard. I would have failed should my dog kill another dog.....ever. I don't believe dogs taunt each other. They want to go or not so learning to read your dog is our responsibility.


Prey drive is prey drive no matter what the prey is.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

llombardo said:


> Prey drive is prey drive no matter what the prey is.


My dog has a ton of prey drive, would kill and eat bunnies but doesn't run around gutting dogs. How would you explain that?

P.S. Has NOT been socialized with other dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Prey drive is prey drive no matter what the prey is.


Agreed.

Another dog, however, is another predator, not prey.

I think this had much more to do with dogs having conflicts with other dogs, instead of the GSD considering the beagle to be prey..


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Yes exactly. The dog is not a balanced dog and therefore needs to be managed carefully for the rest of its life. No play dates at Pets Mart.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Here's how I think about this: the dog was ticked enough at another dog to kill it.

Two deadly attacks-- that is kind of like a bell you cannot unring.(The only reason the schnauzer is not dead is because the schnauzer got lucky.)

I do not think that anything can turn this dog into one that is OK with other dogs.
If he was stressed enough to kill another dog, no matter what the reason, then I would think that I should keep him away from other dogs.
I think it's better for him, better for all the dogs out there, and probably better for the owner, who won't have to face another scary situation every time the dog gets exposed to another.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saphire said:


> My dog has a ton of prey drive, would kill and eat bunnies but doesn't run around gutting dogs. How would you explain that?
> 
> P.S. Has NOT been socialized with other dogs.


So do mine but they have never killed anything. It's called control. It is not ok for a dog to kill ANYTHING. I don't see a bunny as a threat, do you?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Here's how I think about this: the dog was ticked enough at another dog to kill it.
> 
> Two deadly attacks-- that is kind of like a bell you cannot unring.(The only reason the schnauzer is not dead is because the schnauzer got lucky.)
> 
> ...


The OP never said anything about play dates with other dogs. 30 ft away from other dogs is not going kill any dog. How do you suppose the OP takes the dog for a walk for exercise? There isn't really much they can do about loose dogs or stupid owners that let their dog approach other dogs. What is so different from going to Petsmart on a day it's not crowded versus walking down the street?"or even going to the vet for shots? Dogs are everywhere and along with that comes stupid owners. Yes this dog has to be managed and no it should not be allowed left alone with other dogs, but you can't keep a dog in a bubble, because then you have a dog you can take absolutely no where. The dog might or might not ever understand the right or wrong way of handling stress, but to let him to just sit at home with no exposure is not doing the dog any good. It's a vicious circle, I've bern there. I've been not allowed and kicked out of classes. Nothing was going to change that except for me going out and exposing my dog to the things he reacted to, finding out the triggers, and then working on them. You can't just sit back and do nothing. This is coming from someone that busted their butt with a reactive dog. It was not something that I wanted to continue. I knew what my dogs general temperament was and I tuned into him. The OP is doing the same thing.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

That is why you put on a muzzle, and do your best to go out at times when there are as few possibilities of an encounter as you can have.

You don't go and seek encounters. That, to me, is crazy.
What I would do is make sure that the dog is not triggered. Nobody needs for him to be triggered.
And what would be the purpose of dragging him around exposing him to something that he's obviously extremely uncomfortable with?

You have to work with what you have, and manage that.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So do mine but they have never killed anything. It's called control. It is not ok for a dog to kill ANYTHING. I don't see a bunny as a threat, do you?


Sigh.

The bunny is prey.

Just...never mind.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

My take on it is this. Dogs learn for the most part through operant and classical conditioning and are very contextual. Aggression/fighting, confidence, fear, anger are all behaviors or reactions that generally occur under a specific context. Obedience also happens under specific context. 

There is a measure of bleed-over of behaviors from one context to the next but it is for the most part unpredictable as to how strong that bleed-over will be and in which circumstances it will occur or not occur.

For example. Me eating before my dog, or going through doors before my dog or making my dog wait to go through doors before I do will not make the dog obey me more when it comes to things like walking loose on the leash or not barking at dogs that pass me by when I am walking the dog on the leash. It will not make the dog more confident around other dogs when I am there because I am more "alpha". 

That kind of thing does not bleed over and doing those things won't affect the dogs behavior under other circumstances. NILF or 2 week shut downs or whatever will not get rid of the aggression against other dogs under whatever circumstances it was happening under. It does not address specific behaviors under an operant or classical conditioning setting.

Any trainer that thinks it does brings their credibility into serious question.

As for socialization with dogs. That wont be enough either at this point. Your dog has gotten into two serious fights in a fairly short amount of time. It has learned fighting is a solution to problems with smaller dogs. You can't get the dog to unlearn that. You can punish it and suppress it if you were around to see it, but in doing that you put small dogs at risk and given the dog's history that isn't a good risk to take.

Are you willing to put small dogs at risk to suppress the behavior in your dog? If the answer is no then manage your dog, because I'm telling you from experience that is the only way to get it done with any kind of reliability and it isn't worth it. Even if it "works" you are still in a position where you have to constantly watch that dog in the presence of other dogs because that attack behavior can resurface at ANY TIME. You can suppress the behavior through punishment, in some dogs maybe even eliminate it altogether but how do you know if you suppressed or eliminated it? You don't.

If you miss the signs and the dog engages in that behavior that would be unfair to any animal you put the dog with. Very very very unfair.

Zebu wanted to kill Crank when he was a puppy. I had to get them to get along through force. Zebu would get aggressive and I would punish him with the proper timing and intensity to get him to realize that aggression against Crank was NOT a productive option. I had to stay on top of them for weeks and manage their interactions to keep them positive. I haven't had a real issue in almost a year, but there have been times where maybe they get playing a little too hard or there's a weird picture around a person or a resource or a door entry way where Zebu will act aggressively and I have to be there to check him before it escalates. It takes active monitoring. I do not leave them alone together even after months with no issues because I know what could happen if I do.

A trainer can put inhibition on the dog to engage in that behavior. A trainer can also teach you how to maintain that inhibition but regardless of this you are having to manage and monitor that dog. It isn't something you can "cure."


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

Arriving late to this, but did want to make a couple of comments.

On the question of management... my last GSD had human
aggression. I had adopted her at about age 5, and only had
about 5 years of constant vigilance. It is really a rough row
to hoe, let me tell you. Just a couple of seconds inattention
can bring disaster. You have a headache, the phone rings,
your daughter has the flu... just about anything can be just
long enough and you can never go back, You possibly risk
a law suit, loss of insurance, loss of home... it's a lot to
contemplate. I for one, would never do it again. Human
beings make mistakes. I hated the gnawing in my gut and the
worry.

As to the Pet Smart trip, I will only say that at a lot of my
trips through (with or w/o dog in tow) there have been kids
screaming running around corners or kids and adults dropping
leashes accidentally and dogs taking off, a number of things
nearly every time. Unless you take your boy muzzled, he very
well could be startled/scared enough to attack again and cause
further damage.

I'm very sorry, I well remember how tough this is, although mine
was HA and not DA. I do hope for the best, whatever you
decide.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

The first fight your dog was in was a small dog that attacked your dog, correct? This happened just a few days before the second fight, correct?

This second fight, that resulted in the death of the Beagle, happened when you weren't home and your two dogs were alone with your folks two dogs, correct? The Beagle died due to significant injuries to it's belly, correct?


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Lilie said:


> The first fight your dog was in was a small dog that attacked your dog, correct? This happened just a few days before the second fight, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> This second fight, that resulted in the death of the Beagle, happened when you weren't home and your two dogs were alone with your folks two dogs, correct? The Beagle died due to significant injuries to it's belly, correct?



The first one was the small dog that got into our yard. 

And yes correct about the second. She was at the clinic recovering from her injuries when she went into cardiac arrest. 

Both times the dogs were unsupervised.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't recall reading that the OP ' S dogs were attacked.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I don't recall reading that the OP ' S dogs were attacked.



They weren't


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you Bailiff! "Bleed-over" is a great term to use to help explain. 

A muzzle is certainly a form of management. But, I have a concern with this. If I muzzle my dog aggressive dog and she encounters another loose dog aggressive dog, she will not be able to defend herself. That concerns me as I am not confident that I could break up a fight without help and there may not be any.

That would not be fair to my dog. Catch 22.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

bob_barker said:


> The first one was the small dog that got into our yard.
> 
> And yes correct about the second. She was at the clinic recovering from her injuries when she went into cardiac arrest.
> 
> Both times the dogs were unsupervised.


 
This is just my opinion.....It is not unusual for a fight to occur when an outside dog wanders onto another dog's territory. The best we can do is try and make sure it never happens. 

The second fight happened too soon after the first. I suspect the Beagle has been accustomed to snipping at your GSD(s) and your GSD(s) allowing it. This time, they didn't. I think at some point both dogs were involved and possibly even the other Beagle. That is what happens when dogs fight. Everyone wants to jump in. 

Because of the belly injury, the Beagle attempted to submit. But when you have a few dogs geared into the fight, submission is ignored. Funny how much like humans they are when it comes to ganging up on someone. 

I think your trainer came out and assessed your dog(s). I think he/she is expert enough to assess the entire situation and decide that you have the capability to learn from your mistakes and are more than capable to handle your dog. 

BTW - I have two males at home now, together, unsupervised.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Lilie said:


> The second fight happened too soon after the first. I suspect the Beagle has been accustomed to snipping at your GSD(s) and your GSD(s) allowing it. This time, they didn't.



I have videos of this EXACT behaviour... And before anyone jumps down my throat for taking a video of it instead of stopping the behaviour I took it to show my mother the interaction between the dogs ... Literally the weekend before this all happened.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you Bailiff! "Bleed-over" is a great term to use to help explain.
> 
> A muzzle is certainly a form of management. But, I have a concern with this. If I muzzle my dog aggressive dog and she encounters another loose dog aggressive dog, she will not be able to defend herself. That concerns me as I am not confident that I could break up a fight without help and there may not be any.
> 
> That would not be fair to my dog. Catch 22.


That is a reasonable question! 

The answer is "protect" your dog! If you have to "break up a fight" crap has gone badly wrong! 

If one needs to use a muzzle and where they "normal" walk is in an area with a high risk of random dog encounters, then the most reasonable course of action is to go somewhere else for training purposes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> My take on it is this. Dogs learn for the most part through operant and classical conditioning and are very contextual. Aggression/fighting, confidence, fear, anger are all behaviors or reactions that generally occur under a specific context. Obedience also happens under specific context.


Just to clarify the "obvious" once a dog has gotten the opportunity to practice, the bad behaviour, it's harder to deal with then a dog that has not learned that attacking is an option??

I guess I'm actually 50/50 here Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) never given an opportunity to attack another dog (he did slap down a Boxer puppy,once at 'Petco!) but no harm done, I was a tool. :blush: 

Rocky GSD...yeah, Rank drive issues, actual attacks happened, never got the chance to fix that one.

So I kinda know the answer but asking anyway. 

Oh and...we are not dealing with a newbie here and the first post was "not" my dog attacked two dogs...what do I did?? OP gets it and she's trying to move on! Constant browbeating does not really serve the "greater good!"


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> That is a reasonable question!
> 
> The answer is "protect" your dog! If you have to "break up a fight" crap has gone badly wrong!
> 
> If one needs to use a muzzle and where they "normal" walk is in an area with a high risk of random dog encounters, then the most reasonable course of action is to go somewhere else for training purposes.


That would be nice. Just go somewhere else. I can't. Don't drive. In the last 10 weeks here is what we have for new neighbors. 5 doors down 2 pits, 8 doors down, 1 pit, 7 doors up 2 pits. It's the pits, no pun intended. 

I don't drive. These are all rental houses that get away with exorbitant rents in the summer. Many work at the resort just down the street and leave at the end of the season. Many of the dogs end up in the shelter. The dogs are unattended in their yards as the owners are at work. Small yards with 3-5' fencing. Rentals such as these are the only one's allowing these types of dogs. They are out of state owners and care nothing for the neighborhood or if their renter's dogs have a history. The young people that rent these houses normally move 4 or 5 of their friends in to split the rent. The landlords are just after the crazy high rents. 

Hopefully, when summer's over, the kids renting these places will be gone. It gets quiet off season and much safer. For now, I am walking her on the busy street away from potential problems in my neighborhood.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Just to clarify the "obvious" once a dog has gotten the opportunity to practice, the bad behaviour, it's harder to deal with then a dog that has not learned that attacking is an option??
> 
> I guess I'm actually 50/50 here Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) never given an opportunity to attack another dog (he did slap down a Boxer puppy,once at 'Petco!) but no harm done, I was a tool. :blush:
> 
> ...


Actually chip, this post is titled HELP ASAP. 

Her taking her dog in public to an area with other dogs, including small dogs, is setting her /her dog up for failure and more threads like the two she has already posted. 

This is the second thread where her dog has attacked another dog.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

jschrest said:


> Actually chip, this post is titled HELP ASAP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're right.... And you have made your point SEVERAL times... And instead of offering advice you have told me what I have done wrong. And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion... But let's move on here... I get it..: you don't agree with what I have done... Can we not move on and look forward instead of dwelling on the "could have happends"? 
Thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jschrest said:


> Actually chip, this post is titled HELP ASAP.
> 
> Her taking her dog in public to an area with other dogs, including small dogs, is setting her /her dog up for failure and more threads like the two she has already posted.
> 
> This is the second thread where her dog has attacked another dog.


Yes, but...

Yes, but both of those incidents were in the dog's home/yard. Just because a dog is territorial, does not mean he will be an idiot at PetsMart or dog classes. 

And just because the dog ignores other dogs in public or in classes, does not mean the dog is safe to be with dogs in his home or yard. 

I would probably have waited for 1-2 weeks before doing anything doggy with the dog, and then I might take the dog somewhere so I could observe how the dog acts outside his own home ground. Of course you would have to be vigilent. And, just because he did not react about one Newf and one westie does not mean that he is territorial and fine with animals not at home. 

I think the questions we have to ask ourselves is whether we have the ability to gauge the dog constantly, over the course of a year, maybe more, to figure out what makes the dog tick, so we can feel comfortable with the dog in whatever situation we have the dog in. Or is there going to be another major incident.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bob_barker said:


> But let's move on here...


Yes...some here have a problem with the moving on thing at times..but pretty sure you know that!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yes, but...
> 
> Yes, but both of those incidents were in the dog's home/yard. Just because a dog is territorial, does not mean he will be an idiot at PetsMart or dog classes.
> 
> ...


Y

Yes advise along these lines ^^^ is "actually useful! I think the fact that you did this so soon was kind of a surprise to some of us??

The dog "has" to be exposed to other dogs in order to be made safe and civilized around other dogs!

The more he does that the better but it "still" does not mean he can "ever" be "trusted" around other dogs unsupervised!

Pretty sure I would have used a muzzle on the first outing and having a plan of action in case "crap" goes wrong is a good move! 

Apparently, arm out, leash pressure upward and spin the dog is the way to go! Most likely that would be tough to pull off for someone new to it! But the clip I posted shows how it's done!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sue your last paragraph is right on the money.A dog's temperament evolves over time as they mature and they react differently towards other dogs and people.Sometimes it happens so slowly it can go unnoticed.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I do not agree with exposing these dogs to unknowing people and their dogs. One misstep and a dog is seriously injured all while the owner is aware their dogs were capable.

I am also not trying to berate or admonish the OP. It's just so very important that they know what they own and manage it. No excuses, no exceptions, plain management.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I thought my comments included advice, but I guess it wasn't very clear. And yes, I can come of as brash to people who don't know me. I tend to speak bluntly and very straight forward. So I will make this my last post of this thread, and wish the OP all the luck in the world.

Have your trainer work with your dog with other dogs with the proper temperament in a controlled environment. Not in an uncontrolled environment like a petsmart or dog park. 

Avoid encounters with other dogs in uncontrolled environments.

Crate and rotate your two GSD's when you are not there to supervise to avoid any issues that could very easily arise between the two of them. They may be best friends now, but one dog has proven he can't be trusted around another dog alone.

Don't allow them out in the yard unsupervised. 

Use your trainer. OP never verified if it was her trainer that told her to go to petsmart, but I think it's a safe bet OP made that call on her own.

Lower you expectations of him being "cured." It's a dog that will need constant management. 

I'm certainly no expert, I've got a GSD with issues a mile long. I'm just offering common sense advice. And advice I've received from others here with my GSD, as well as advice from the trainer that will be working with mine. My apologies for the proverbial "beating of a dead horse."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> I thought my comments included advice, but I guess it wasn't very clear. And yes, I can come of as brash to people who don't know me. I tend to speak bluntly and very straight forward. So I will make this my last post of this thread, and wish the OP all the luck in the world.
> 
> Have your trainer work with your dog with other dogs with the proper temperament in a controlled environment. Not in an uncontrolled environment like a petsmart or dog park.
> 
> ...


Well then...this is better!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It seems like now that the dust has settled, that most agree on lifelong management. I got lost on the prey predator stuff. I have seen multiple dogs gang up on one when left to their own devices, even their own pack members. I'm not sure what triggers this to happen, maybe predator or prey "blind frenzy".

Is sounds as though I am going to have to manage my dog in the same way and lifelong. I have been really watching her to try to figure out how to stifle but she shows the same exact behavior with prey (squirrels) or predator (other dogs). Hair up on neck and also up just above her but. Tail up and out of her head.

But I guess in the long run, after reading these posts, it doesn't really matter. If it can't really ever be trained out and only managed, and yet, still unpredictable then what kind of training would the op receive? Would it be just to know how to correct the behavior at that moment to stop things from progressing?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Bob Barker - Look at this! 13 pages of information ... some helpful, some not! I'll add my other two cents:

My dog was attacked 5 times in a 6 month period - every time we were on leash, either walking or she was running beside me while I was biking (I bike slow LOL)

She was 18 months - 2 years when these attacks happened. 

Kyleigh is now 4 years old and I have got her behaviour / obedience to a point where as long as a dog is NOT in her face, we are fine. I can walk her past any dog losing it's stuff at her in the back yard, across the street, etc. and she doesn't bat an eye. 

The second a dog is in her face, all bets are off ... she doesn't even "assess" if the dog's a threat or not - she's on it. 

It took me almost a year to get her to this point, and I worked my butt off. 

My words to you are those of encouragement - you screwed up. Yeah, well, we are all human, and the only way we become better people is to learn from our mistakes and move forward and don't repeat them. After the experiences you've just had, I highly doubt you're going to make the same mistake!

With the proper training (and by this I mean ROCK SOLID / BOMB PROOF obedience) and learning your dog's thresholds and ACCEPTING them you can still have a great relationship with your dog. BUT, it will take time, patience and huge amounts of effort. 

I changed a lot of the stuff that I was doing with Kyleigh (we were doing a lot of "group" stuff where other dogs were around in close quarters). 

We signed up for scent detection, she loved that ... I do urban agility with her - she rocks at that and I upped her training to levels I don't need, but are good for her brain. 

Here's a good chuckle for you - I was working her in a field with long distance obedience. I put her in a down and walked off about 150 feet. I called her to me. About half way I said STOP. She stopped. I said DOWN, she dropped. I called her to me again. STOP / LEFT / COME / STOP / COME / STOP / GO RIGHT / STOP / COME / DOWN / COME / STOP / GO BACK. 

We were having a blast - she was pumped and a couple of times she was even barking at me - as if to say, would you just let me come to you!!!

I had her come to me and put the leash back on her and then I hear a voice from about 20 feet away ... WOW, that is awesome!

I turned around and there's a cop on a bicycle. My first reaction was CRAP, she was off leash LOL 

The cop was super impressed with her! And my aloof dog? She was such a tramp LOL ... She went up to him to sniff and just dropped on the ground and rolled over for him (I was super surprised - she only does that to the furnace guy, me and my dad!)

I didn't get in heck for not having her on leash ... and he asked if I could do it again and could he tape it! So I did ... I don't know who had more fun! Him and I watching her perform like an ace ... or her with that extra step of "look at me ... see how smart I am" while I ran her through everything. 

So, chin up! There's always hope! BUT, you might have to change your views on what you can / cannot do with him anymore. In the end, you might have more fun doing things with him that you wouldn't have thought of doing in the first place!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> That would be nice. Just go somewhere else. I can't. Don't drive.


It was an "assumption" on my part and you know what they say about assumptions!



Stonevintage said:


> In the last 10 weeks here is what we have for new neighbors. 5 doors down 2 pits, 8 doors down, 1 pit, 7 doors up 2 pits. It's the pits, no pun intended.


 Ok that would just flat suck big time!! Do you carry a walking stick??You can use it to jam in front of a dog in order to deter him.

But yeah that's a rough situation your in!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> It was an "assumption" on my part and you know what they say about assumptions!
> 
> Ok that would just flat suck big time!! Do you carry a walking stick??You can use it to jam in front of a dog in order to deter him.
> 
> But yeah that's a rough situation your in!


Chip - ah, yes I have a walking stick. I'm not reluctant to carry it because of my older age and the typecasting thing. I sell all manner of unusual objects for a living. The walking stick - well, it's made out of a bull's you know what. I could see the headlines now - "woman thwarts Pitbull attack with......" I've been looking for the nice strong hickory ones, but actually the one I have would be perfect. It has a pointy end, rawhide texture for a good grip and lightweight but strong.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Chip - ah, yes I have a walking stick. I'm not reluctant to carry it because of my older age and the typecasting thing. I sell all manner of unusual objects for a living. The walking stick - well, it's made out of a bull's you know what. I could see the headlines now - "woman thwarts Pitbull attack with......" I've been looking for the nice strong hickory ones, but actually the one I have would be perfect. It has a pointy end, rawhide texture for a good grip and lightweight but strong.


In "theory" you don't need to hit the dog with the cane/stick! You jam it in front of him to thwart his advance!

Keep him at bay and give the negligent owners time to intervene! Assuming of course there is an owner present and there not on crack! Sorry couldn't help myself!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> In "theory" you don't need to hit the dog with the cane/stick! You jam it in front of him to thwart his advance!
> 
> Keep him at bay and give the negligent owners time to intervene! Assuming of course there is an owner present and there not on crack! Sorry couldn't help myself!


Well, I have imagined all ways to use a walking stick but what do you mean by "jam it in front of him"? A stick is pretty narrow, do you place it or threaten with it, just how do you wield this mighty weapon?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You lay down a barrage with that stick. Then you pray it isn't a ring dog and you're just showing it the picture it wants to see.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You lay down a barrage with that stick. Then you pray it isn't a ring dog and you're just showing it the picture it wants to see.


That requires a "further" explanation for us "pet people" if you will??


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

You wack the **** out of the attacking dog with it, and pray it's not a ring dog - aka - trained to attack (bite) someone wielding a stick or whip and "hitting" the dog with it. YouTube videos of bite work, the bait person is normally wielding a stick or whip.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You lay down a barrage with that stick. Then you pray it isn't a ring dog and you're just showing it the picture it wants to see.


That's what I was thinking. No ring dogs here, small town, neighbor Pits. When I won my attack with the 2 Pits, I was wielding bagged cans of green beans. It wasn't until I connected with one really solid to the head that the attack by both dogs quickly broke off.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jschrest said:


> You wack the **** out of the attacking dog with it, and pray it's not a ring dog - aka - trained to attack (bite) someone wielding a stick or whip and "hitting" the dog with it. YouTube videos of bite work, the bait person is normally wielding a stick or whip.


I've never had to result to actually hitting a dog!

By and large in my "experience" they are looking at your dog and don't even see the human!

But assuming we are talking about Pitts...sigh. By and large they are pretty impervious to being hit by a stick! 

Jamming an object in front of them "disrupts" there planned trajectory and gives there "brain" an opportunity to catch up with there chosen course of action/direction!

Hitting them with anything short of a baseball in the head...good luck with that! It would be more like "man that really ticked me off!!!

BUll Mastiff/APBT/Lab mix owner here and yes of course "my" dog did not go around attacking People and Dogs! 

But yeah the numbers are pretty bad as regards Pitts!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So, earlier today, because of Chip's suggestion. I put a bid on a really cool walking stick. It has a brass 5" Eagle's head handle with a steel cane. I'm still trying to picture how I'm suppose to hold back my 75lb young GSD with one hand while using the cane with the other. I thought about stepping on her leash to use it as leverage to keep her with me, but is that a bad move? Her lunge could knock me on my but which would not be a good defensive posture


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I am not worried about anything but Pits. And it's only because of their latch on and don't let go style. I am not concerned with other dogs because they rarely go to extremes and last that long. I think that my dog and I can repel any other breed without much damage to either dog. 

You might have read last month when I posted about carrying an ice pick with me. This morning I found an umbrella with an 8"stainless steel blade inside. I understand suddenly opening an umbrella in front of an approaching dog can break the cycle. I really like the umbrella. But, there are those that think that my thoughts are cruel. I think of them as protecting my dog's life, should it ever come to the one in a million extreme.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I'm still trying to picture how I'm suppose to hold back my 75lb young GSD with one hand while using the cane with the other. I thought about stepping on her leash to use it as leverage to keep her with me, but is that a bad move? Her lunge could knock me on my but which would not be a good defensive posture


Awww there is the rub! 

The goal is...you tell your dog to stay! You step in front and deter the intruder! You want to be dealing with that dog and not your own!

Rocky did that "extremely" well eight years ago under pressure from two charging dogs!!
*
This just in!* Just now, Rocky is getting sloppy! Daughter in law came over from Ca. We went on a walk, I neglected my usually head up eyes and ears open, look and scan advise! Open garage door, which I "advise" people to look for! Pitt mix "of course" came charging! Rocky did not stay behind me, he did not advance but he stood beside me to see what was up! 

He stood next to me and seemed to be non perturbed by the other dog in his face, barking!! Owner was asking me if Rocky's was friendly!! 

I don't care,was my retort, get your dog! No harm done no fighting...I'm just not happen with him (Rocky) at the moment! 

I will say that he was off leash, the other dog charged and my experience with Rocky has shown me that he is much better disciplined on leash than off!

In eight years and five dogs, that "is" as close as a dog has gotten to one of mine! Well OK there was the puppy spin with a charging Pitt 14 years ago!

Aww Pitts...gotta luv'em! :wild:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

See, there ya' go. It could have gone either way with the other dog, unknown. 

Could you do me a huge favor and promise you will try to leash in your use of exclamation points instead of periods? I get these headaches......


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I am not worried about anything but Pits. And it's only because of their latch on and don't let go style. I am not concerned with other dogs because they rarely go to extremes and last that long. I think that my dog and I can repel any other breed without much damage to either dog.
> 
> You might have read last month when I posted about carrying an ice pick with me. This morning I found an umbrella with an 8"stainless steel blade inside. I understand suddenly opening an umbrella in front of an approaching dog can break the cycle. I really like the umbrella. But, there are those that think that my thoughts are cruel. I think of them as protecting my dog's life, should it ever come to the one in a million extreme.


Stone, on another thread, somebody suggested a leash that goes across the body that would leave your hands free. I am thinking about trying one..


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

newlie said:


> Stone, on another thread, somebody suggested a leash that goes across the body that would leave your hands free. I am thinking about trying one..


Perfect. I will search for it tomorrow morning. Thanks!


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

The next dog that comes at Lillie with intent to kill her 
like the one did last year, is getting his skull cracked as 
hard and as many times as I can until he's laid out. I
can't count on a nearby contractor pulling out an eight
foot long 2 X 4 and doing it for me. 

Some dogs might be deterred by an umbrella, or throwing 
treats in front of them or whatever I've heard suggested before
but this one definitely would not have and I'm not taking a
chance ever again.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> See, there ya' go. It could have gone either way with the other dog, unknown.
> 
> Could you do me a huge favor and promise you will try to leash in your use of exclamation points instead of periods? I get these headaches......


For you..I'll try! opps I meant to use (.)

But seriously that time they were needed. (Hmm this is hard to do.) But, his dog came out of "nowhere" charging us. I was between that dog and Rocky and Rocky stepped from behind me to beside me. 

I was not happy at that, so I'm watching both dogs, Rocky is standing by me smiling,the other dog is charging and barking and the guy is "shouting is your dog friendly???

The dogs were fine, I was ticked off! I said I don't know get your dog. I was not happy, that was the first time a dog I don't know got that close. Well third actually but that was a while ago and Rocky stopped that one when I fell, another story I've told before.

I'm not particularly "friendly" when I feel my dogs are under threat but yeah Rocky was cool, yet again under pressure. 

Me not so much, I tend to meet aggression with aggression, most likely "not" the way to go but it is what it is.

If people think your on the edge as it were...they are more likely to keep a tighter rein on there dog. That dog has been there eight years and this was a first. 

But as I tend to say on occasion, "I offer sound advise...I don't necessarily follow it."


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

newlie said:


> Stone, on another thread, somebody suggested a leash that goes across the body that would leave your hands free. I am thinking about trying one..


Not sure if that was me or not, but I do use one.. I LOVE IT. It is the greatest thing I have ever used as far as a lead. It's double ended and can clip into any form (regular lead, short lead, cross body, double lead for 2 dogs, etc.). I will say, if your dog is a puller, this is not for you.. because you will go where he goes. But if he's a good heeler and respects you on the walk/run/whatever, and listens, you will love it. I use it in stores too when I have to get a lot of dog things. very convenient. 

I've read other people don't like them because "anything can happen" and where when you are just hold a lead, you can drop it, you can't exactly do that with the cross body leash. but for me it's so easy to unclip/pull out of, that it doesn't phase me. Plus there's the whole "scan and look and be prepared" think Chip talks about.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Plus there's the whole "scan and look and be prepared" think Chip talks about.


Yep I do! And yep...this one time I forgot! Open garage dog! Look for dogs!!

This know dog...came out of nowhere! Big and noisy big...not really a thread! Rocky came from behind me to beside to see what the fuss was???

I was not happy at that! I was "not" pleasant to the dogs owners!!! Apparently... "I" take my "protect your advise" my seriously then even I realized! I was still a shield first even after being taken by surprise! But the Gunther steps up to see what the fuss was???

I was ticked off!!! And my next dog will be a female Boxer, God help a dog if he tries to get in her face!!! I guess I'm wrapped a bit to tight as regards my female Boxers!

Oh well guess I'm not full of crap in regards to "protect your dog" nice to know...I guess?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> Not sure if that was me or not, but I do use one.. I LOVE IT. It is the greatest thing I have ever used as far as a lead. It's double ended and can clip into any form (regular lead, short lead, cross body, double lead for 2 dogs, etc.). I will say, if your dog is a puller, this is not for you.. because you will go where he goes. But if he's a good heeler and respects you on the walk/run/whatever, and listens, you will love it. I use it in stores too when I have to get a lot of dog things. very convenient.
> 
> I've read other people don't like them because "anything can happen" and where when you are just hold a lead, you can drop it, you can't exactly do that with the cross body leash. but for me it's so easy to unclip/pull out of, that it doesn't phase me. Plus there's the whole "scan and look and be prepared" think Chip talks about.


 Wyoung, what brand is the one you have? I have shopped a little online and there are a lot of different ones, so I'd like to try a brand that somebody has recommended..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Yep I do! And yep...this one time I forgot! Open garage dog! Look for dogs!!
> 
> This know dog...came out of nowhere! Big and noisy big...not really a thread! Rocky came from behind me to beside to see what the fuss was???
> 
> ...


I meant this "known" dog...
I "always" looked for and this I did not!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

newlie said:


> Wyoung, what brand is the one you have? I have shopped a little online and there are a lot of different ones, so I'd like to try a brand that somebody has recommended..


So unfortunately I have never been able to find Titan's leashes online. We bought them when we were stationed in Germany and when I need another, I have a friend who will purchase them for me and send them to me  I think the brand is "Hunter" and I have just never been able to find any online.

I did a little searching and found a few that look very similar to what we use.. the first one being my first pick if I ever couldn't get on from my friend.

Multipurpose Dog Leash for German Shepherd [L15##1070 Nylon dog lead] : German Shepherd dog harness, German Shepherd dog muzzle, German Shepherd dog collar, Dog leash, German Shepherd

Leather dog leash multi functional - L1-20mm [L120#1073 Leather police dog leash for training] - $39.90 : Dog harness , Dog collar , Dog leash , Dog muzzle - Dog training equipment from Trusted Direct Source - Home, Dog Supplies

Adjustable-Length Reflective Dog Leash | ActiveDogs.com

Hope this helps.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

WAIT!!!! More digging... I have found it!!!!!! MAN I am so excited.. lol. going on 6 years and I have NEVER found his leashes online. This is the one we use:

adjustable Nylon Leash - www.Dog-Shop.org

I have the dark Navy and a black one!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I actually prefer leather to the nylon. and much easier to find!

Active Dogs Schutzhund Leather Leash 7 Foot

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/European-Multifunctional-Leather-Adjustable-Schutzhund/dp/B004GTKAJC[/ame]

Dog Care Products and Accessories in California - Dogs My Love


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> I actually prefer leather to the nylon. and much easier to find!
> 
> Active Dogs Schutzhund Leather Leash 7 Foot
> 
> ...


Awesome. Good to have more links to the same kind of leash we love. Thanks for sharing those. I haven't ever had leather, but we are looking at this one next, it's the same brand as the nylon ones we already use. 

http://www.hundeshop24.biz/adjustable-Leash-Hunter-SPECIAL-EDITION

Curiosity, why leather over Nylon? Is there a benefit?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wyoung2153 said:


> Awesome. Good to have more links to the same kind of leash we love. Thanks for sharing those. I haven't ever had leather, but we are looking at this one next, it's the same brand as the nylon ones we already use.
> 
> http://www.hundeshop24.biz/adjustable-Leash-Hunter-SPECIAL-EDITION
> 
> Curiosity, why leather over Nylon? Is there a benefit?


Ummmm, gee, thanks.

You just cost me a hundred bucks.

Had to order two of their collars!:wild:

Hey, at least they removed $30 in VAT  that Europeans have to pay.

PS-- please start a new thread linking that website. People might want quality German-made leashes and collars!


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Dang it! I should not go to those websites . I hope Wolf enjoys his new leather leash, collar (and I'm embarrased but, harness) lol


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Ummmm, gee, thanks.
> 
> You just cost me a hundred bucks.
> 
> ...


 Haha! I LOVE the Hunter brand. I am so excited I finally found the website! I have started the thread!!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/574497-quality-leashes-other-tools.html

Feel free to add any products you love!



Ryankappel said:


> Dang it! I should not go to those websites . I hope Wolf enjoys his new leather leash, collar (and I'm embarrased but, harness) lol


Lol, oh he will! I love getting Titan new things.. my bank account, not so much, lol.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Question for everyone giving advice on this situation. 

The boys have both been doing great the last few weeks... 
But the other night I ran into a situation that was handled but I don't know if I handled it correctly...


I had Wile E out for a walk in the conservation area just down the road from my house where we go nightly... Most people are really good for keeping their dogs on leash since they have been really cracking down with the law. He is not leash reactive at all, he will look at the other dog and then look at me and carry on... But the other day we were approaching a man with his little poodle who was off leash... 

What I did was stayed calm, and put myself in between Wile E and this dog that was approaching and just kept walking, I stayed on the opposite side of the path... I got the classic "oh he's friendly" line.... So I gave him the "well mines not"... 

Wile E didn't react and just kept on walking... 


Did I handle this ok!?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Yes.

The only thing better would have been to call to the man to leash his dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I would have also said, "Get your dog!" But it sounds like there were no accidents and injuries so all is good. Lots of people with breeds not likely to be aggressive, never consider that anyone would take a less than 100% bombproof dog out in public.


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## Keisha1 (Aug 28, 2013)

Here is a link to a 6 in 1 leash -the clip to adjust the leash can be locked- can be adjusted for long leash- short leash- 2 dogs- hand free- etc

http://www.kurgo.com/leashes-collars/quantum-leash/#PhotoSwipe1439608941581


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

That is exactly what I would have done. We have some issues with dogs in our neighborhood close to my house where theirs are not leashed, and often the owners are not outside with them. I just get in between them and Titan and take it from there. A few times I have had to face the dog as it's barreling toward us, but they turn away once they realize I won't let them get away with that. It's all about "protecting" our dog, not even just from harm, but just from starting something it shouldn't. You did well. I would have put up my dog after and gone to the owners about their dog being off lead.


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