# American showline and German Showline confusion



## Narny

I am trying to decide which breeder I want to go with and from what I read and the from the advice of others here and else where it may be best for me to get a dog that isnt a work line for a number of reasons but really dont need to get into that here. 

So I am looking at different dogs and realize that I have NO IDEA how to really tell the difference between a German showline and American showline. 

I know that the American show lines will be simply bred for their "pretty ness" which I want to stay FAR away from. 

I am really confused. How do you know the difference between American show and German show?

For example I am looking at these breeders and they have what I "think" is German show lines and German work lines. I just want to make sure that the German show lines arent bred for looks here in the states and/or end up with a necrotic dog.

http://www.rallhaus.com/Pages/Litters.aspx


----------



## martemchik

None of the dogs are bred for looks. Some are bred for the conformation ring and others are bred for "pet markets." German lines are bred with more drive, but drive is not always something people are ready for. What exactly are you looking for in a dog? Many people on this forum will advocate working lines, I own one, but I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't think about American lines. They are calmer, "mature" quicker, and are easier to own (generally don't require as much to do). There are plenty of American line dogs getting their UDX in AKC obedience and doing agility. They aren't all just bred to look pretty in the show ring. While this is the preferred method of titling your breeding stock in the United States, its because everyone wants a "champion dog" so they can tell their friends about it, most people have no idea what a CD, CDX, UD, UDX is.

American show lines are generally black and tan, German are black and red. There are some other differences but that's the main way to tell the difference for a novice person.


----------



## Chris Wild

The easiest way is to look at the dogs and their names.
German show lines will be black and red/tan saddle patterned dogs, with German sounding names, and usually V or VA (conformation titles) before their name and SchH or HGH titles after their name, hips probably certified through the A stamp.

American show lines come in all colors, will have American sounding names, conformation ratings will be Ch (Championship), they may or may not have any titles after their name, if there are hip ratings they will probably be through OFA.


----------



## EJQ

Hi there - quite honestly I think you should spend a little time researching the forums. There is a mint of information concerning the difference between the American & German lines.

GENERALLY speaking - - - I stress generally
_Color_: German working lines are usually dark sable in color. German show lines tend to be Black & Red. American show lines are usually Black & Tan but can come in many colors.
_Confirmation_: American show lines are more streamlined with steeply angled rears and are sometimes cow hocked. German show lines are more bulky & blocky, square in the rear end and are sometimes "roach backed". I often refer to them as Thoroughbreds vs Quarter Horses.
_Temperament_: Usually depends on the individual dog - breeding, training, socialization etc.

In terms of appearance you'll recognize the differences once you visit some web sites.


----------



## Emoore

Narny said:


> I know that the American show lines will be simply bred for their "pretty ness" which I want to stay FAR away from.


I would argue that someone who can't tell the difference between the lines doesn't really have the right to be insulting any of them. How do you know enough about them to insult them if you don't even know which ones they are? Just going by what somebody said on the internet? There are plenty of American breeders producing solid, healthy, stable American Show line dogs. 

Sorry, it's just one of my pet peeves and it happens a lot. "I know I don't want a show line because they're crippled and ugly and have sloped backs. By the way can you tell me if this is a show line?"


----------



## Narny

Emoore said:


> I would argue that someone who can't tell the difference between the lines doesn't really have the right to be insulting any of them. How do you know enough about them to insult them if you don't even know which ones they are? Just going by what somebody said on the internet? There are plenty of American breeders producing solid, healthy, stable American Show line dogs.
> 
> Sorry, it's just one of my pet peeves and it happens a lot. "I know I don't want a show line because they're crippled and ugly and have sloped backs. By the way can you tell me if this is a show line?"


This wasnt about insulting any one or their breeding habits. I thought this was simply just a matter of course. Of all the research and reading I have done I have never come across and wasnt aware of nor have I ever heard anyone anywhere say anything positive about the America breeding of GSDs. Of course this is what "I" consider good so its a personal opinion I suppose. 

Reading over and over that the breeders breed for confirmation, in my mind confirmation = pretty.

I will also add that not being able to tell the difference isnt the same as being unable to read over and over everywhere that American GSD's are not bred to be the standard and the standard is what I am looking for. I want a dog thats bred for its brains not its looks. If thats insulting I am sorry but that certainly was not my intent.


----------



## martemchik

Narny said:


> This wasnt about insulting any one or their breeding habits. I thought this was simply just a matter of course. Of all the research and reading I have done I have never come across and wasnt aware of nor have I ever heard anyone anywhere say anything positive about the America breeding of GSDs. Of course this is what "I" consider good so its a personal opinion I suppose.
> 
> Reading over and over that the breeders breed for confirmation, in my mind confirmation = pretty.


Where are you doing your research? Get off the computer and go to some shows, go to some GSD/training clubs. What is it that you're looking for in a dog? You said yourself, you don't want a dog that has the drive to work, then why look for a German dog when American lines can bring you everything you look for.

Conformation is how closely the dog matches the breed standard, a good conforming dog will be able to do everything that is asked of it and more. Conformation helps with movement and the point is to not waste any motion/energy. Most of the GSDs in the United States come from American lines, these dogs are perfect for pet homes and if you go through the right breeder they are just as healthy as any from a German line.


----------



## Narny

martemchik said:


> Where are you doing your research? Get off the computer and go to some shows, go to some GSD/training clubs. What is it that you're looking for in a dog? You said yourself, you don't want a dog that has the drive to work, then why look for a German dog when American lines can bring you everything you look for.
> 
> Conformation is how closely the dog matches the breed standard, a good conforming dog will be able to do everything that is asked of it and more. Conformation helps with movement and the point is to not waste any motion/energy. Most of the GSDs in the United States come from American lines, these dogs are perfect for pet homes and if you go through the right breeder they are just as healthy as any from a German line.


I have no problem with a dog bred to work however people have expressed concern given my situation ie younger kids and being new to keeping gsd's. I take that concern and the advice given to me seriously. I dont know nearly as much as most of the people here and I acknowledge that and take it seriously so I look for a dog that would best suit our family. There are still traits that I want in my dog such as willingness to work/train and a good house dog not to mention willingness and ability to protect if something happened that it was needed.

Work doesnt bother me at all I simply want to insure that I listen to the advice that is give. 

Man I have stepped in it havent I.


----------



## martemchik

Narny said:


> Man I have stepped in it havent I.


It's not that...its just the way you phrased your first post. And you're getting this from people that own working lines, just wait until someone with ASL sees this post. ASL get picked on a lot on the forum and its quite tiring to hear it from people that haven't seen the dogs and can't even tell the difference.

All ASLs will be trained just fine. I belong to a GSD club and 95% of the dogs in there are ASL, there are many with obedience titles. In regards to children, I would trust any WELL BRED line with kids. ASLs even more so because they are calmer and not as crazy as a driven German puppy is. If the dog is properly socialized around children from a young age, it will have no issue with kids. Most German shepherds will protect when needed, this has nothing to do with their lines and everything to do with the actual dog, but don't expect them to get protective until they are 2-3. If you're really worried about children, your best bet might be to rescue a tested dog. Or contact breeders that are retiring some of their breeding stock and are looking for homes for those dogs. A puppy can go either way but with an adult you will know when you adopt if it is good with kids or not.


----------



## DianaM

Narny, there are lots of good German showline dogs out there but they will need lots of exercise and training and outlets. Look at Liesje's Nikon (member on the board). Nikon is a German showline, a very handsome dog, but also clearly needs a job and does very well at all the activities Lies does with him. There are lots of working line dogs out there that have no jobs other than family pet but they get LOTS of mental and physical exercise. Yes, lots of American show or pet lines are softer and more sedate, more like golden retrievers but many do need jobs and excel at agility or obedience or herding. Bottom line, yes you may want from one GSD type or another but working or show or pet, you are getting a German shepherd dog and you do need to be prepared for a dog that won't accept a half hour walk a day and a few minutes of training a few days each week. Just make sure you're prepared for a dog that won't ever let you forget you own one. 

Make a list of traits you like in a dog and a list of traits you dislike. BE HONEST about your schedule and your willingness to commit time, money, and gas to training your dog. Are you resolute that you do not want to participate in any dog sports or did you see an agility video on youtube the other day and you thought it looked like something fun to do? Do you want a dog that will be a pal to everyone or do you prefer a dog who doesn't give a rip about anyone but you and your family? Do you want to be continuously challenged to be a better dog trainer or will you train because you have to, not because you want to and enjoy it? Do you want a dog you can take anywhere that will allow dogs or do you prefer "just a dog" that hangs out at home and in the yard? Questions like these and your list of good/bad traits can be taken to breeders of the different lines and they can tell you if their lines will be a good match, recommend you to other breeders within the type if not, recommend you to the other breed types, or tell you that you may not be a good candidate for the breed. 

If you want to get a better idea for what you're looking at, gather some of the breeder websites you're looking at and post them and we can tell you what lines they are. Ralhaus has working and show litters.

V Nord II Suché Lazce - German Shepherd Dog
This is the male at the top of the page from the Ralhaus link you posted. Notice how the dogs in the pedigree look almost identical? That's a quirk of German showlines. Yes, you will see working titles, but if you watch the working portion of a sieger show and compare it to the Schutzhund nationals (which you can, thanks to YouTube), you will generally see a huge difference in how the dogs are worked and how the dogs react. There is a lot more to it than just that statement and it has been thoroughly discussed in other threads on this board.

V1, CAC, CACIB, P1 Samer z Kurimskeho haje - German Shepherd Dog
The male from the bottom of the Ralhaus page you linked. See how they all look different? There are sables, a black, and a black and tan. All sorts of working titles. 

SEL CH Kaleefs Geneva Aeval-Achtung - German Shepherd Dog
A very famous American showline dog. Just like with the German showlines, there is a lot of uniformity in type (but the German dogs just look Xeroxed to me). ROMs and Ch. designations dominate, you will see AKC titles like CD, CDX, RN, etc.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

Narny said:


> I have no problem with a dog bred to work however people have expressed concern given my situation ie younger kids and being new to keeping gsd's. I take that concern and the advice given to me seriously. I dont know nearly as much as most of the people here and I acknowledge that and take it seriously so I look for a dog that would best suit our family. There are still traits that I want in my dog such as willingness to work/train and a good house dog not to mention willingness and ability to protect if something happened that it was needed.
> 
> Work doesnt bother me at all I simply want to insure that I listen to the advice that is give.
> 
> Man I have stepped in it havent I.



My dog trainer(who runs a schutzhund club) is personal friends with Kim and has excellent things to say about her dogs and breeding program, he has trained some of them. I will be meeting her new litter on Friday 

Don't totally discount conformation because as someone stated above, conformation is very important..not just for "prettiness", but for overall function and mobility. What good is a working dog if it has poor structure? Conformation has its place.

Now, as far as protection, GSDs are naturally protective to some degree, but if you want a dog that will actually back up that bark with a serious bite, the only way to really guarantee that is to drop tens of thousands of dollars on a serious protection trained dog. Protection training is different than the sport of schutzhund.


----------



## DianaM

> Most German shepherds will protect when needed, this has nothing to do with their lines and everything to do with the actual dog, but don't expect them to get protective until they are 2-3.


Probably not. Most will bark and put up quite a show. Many can have their bluffs called and sent for the hills since most are reacting from fear and defense as opposed to fight. You said it right, it does depend on the dog. There are plenty of small dogs out there with a lot more fight in them than a lot of GSDs (don't anger a good terrier). The best bet at this point is pedigree research as opposed to "oh it's a working line dog from generations of SchH III dogs and dogs that competed in Nationals and World Championships, it will protect me from all the evils of the planet!"


----------



## msvette2u

> Confirmation: American show lines are more streamlined with steeply angled rears and are sometimes cow hocked. German show lines are more bulky & blocky, square in the rear end and are sometimes "roach backed". I often refer to them as Thoroughbreds vs Quarter Horses.


It's "conformation" and not all ASL are "cow hocked". People who have no idea what they are breeding for but just manage to toss a few dogs together can get the 
"cow hocks" you speak of, but well-bred ASL are not crippled or cow hocked.


----------



## Freestep

Narny said:


> I know that the American show lines will be simply bred for their "pretty ness" which I want to stay FAR away from.
> 
> I am really confused. How do you know the difference between American show and German show?
> 
> For example I am looking at these breeders and they have what I "think" is German show lines and German work lines. I just want to make sure that the German show lines arent bred for looks here in the states and/or end up with a necrotic dog.
> 
> Litters - Current and Upcoming


The link provided shows some German show line and some working line litters.

As was mentioned before, German show lines tend to be black and red saddlebacks, with VA, V, or SG before the name, and SchH1, 2, or 3 after the name. The names usually have the dog's name first, the kennel name last, and von, vom, or von der in the middle. The names are German (or European--whatever country the dog was born in). Some of the dogs have a humpbacked appearance. In Germany, all GSD used for breeding MUST have passed either a SchH1 or HGH (herding) trial, have a show rating, and a hip evaluation.

German working lines tend to be dominated by sable dogs, though you will see blacks, bicolor, and saddle/blanket back dogs as well. They generally have straighter backs and less angulation than the show dogs, and will have G, SG, or V in front of their name and may have several working titles. Very rarely will you see a VA working dog these days.

American show lines come in all colors, have noticeably more slope to the back when in a show pose, and the back legs have a noticeably steeper angle to them. The names sound American and often the kennel name comes before the dog's name. There may be "CH" in front of the name, and if there are any "working" titles (CD, CDX, TD) they come after the name. America does not require the dogs to have any working titles, show ratings, or hip evaluations.

You can find good dogs in all lines, and neurotic dogs in all lines, but in general, I find that the American dogs have a softer temperament. Because American breeders have not been held to a strict standard in terms of working ability, it is harder to find an American show line that will excel in SchH, but they may do well in obedience, agility, etc.

Personally I think that, in any line, a lot depends on the breeder and the specific dogs they have chosen for their breeding program. What are the breeder's goals and what have they accomplished with their dogs? If they have bred, trained and titled their own dogs over many generations, they will know their bloodlines inside and out.

There are some breeders who mix bloodlines, but this must be done very carefully and with a specific goal in mind. If you mix a nervous American bitch with a hot-headed Czech male, for example, the offspring could wind up with the worst of both.

I totally understand you saying you don't want bloodlines bred for "prettiness" alone, many people feel the same way, and it's a fair criticism of American show lines to say that they haven't been bred for working ability. However, there are American breeders working toward improving this. To be honest, I never liked American showlines but they have gotten much better over the past 15-20 years or so. I'm seeing more moderate conformation and better temperament than I did in the 80s and 90s.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

It all depends what YOU want from your dog. What look you prefer, what activities you want to do (any sports?)..

I own both an ASL and a GSL. Now, because of my preferences, I will never own another ASL. I love the GSL and GWL. But, that doesn't mean the ASL is bad, or can't be trained, or not intelligent. They are just bred for something different. Which is why you need to know exactly what you want from your dog.

I personally want to go more towards protection sport, like Schutzhund... it's been a goal of mine for about 10 years. I love the stocky bodies, and block heads. The GSL and GWL are more my type. I enjoy their temperaments, their drive, and their looks. That's my preference.

However, my ASL can kill my GSL in agility. She would probably be excellent at herding, and she is pretty good with OB. She is taller, and thin... not bulky at all. Her head is pointy compared to my GSL. And her coat is pretty short, with not much undercoat. (This seems to be the norm in ASL) Her coat is not as high maintenance as my GSL. Not all have less energy though.... my ASL can run circles around my GSL all day, every day. Her energy doesn't stop. So, don't just go by that. Her drive is a bit less, but she is in no way a calmer house dog. She's always on the go!

When it comes down to it.... as long as you find a GOOD breeder, you will have a fantastic dog from either end of the spectrum. Just depends what you are looking for. Be careful where you go though, because ALL lines have "issues" when you go to someone who doesn't breed for the right reasons or is ignorant with their lines. Know exactly what you want, go to the right breeder and let them know.... if you do that, you will get the right pup for your family.

You may want to research all the lines where there is no bias information.... Just because one line doesn't work for Jane and John doesn't mean it's wrong for you and your family. 

Good luck.


----------



## GrammaD

I absolutely adore my ASL (sire) x WGSL (dam) cross puppy. 

here is Dad-









here is Mom (with Huxley's litter- I have a stacked photo of her but haven't scanned it in)-









He is smart, biddable (example, he learned to ring the bells on the door to go outside in a matter of days- is completely reliable in the house already at 3+ months, learned sit-down-watch me-heel and does them all reliably by either voice command or hand signal) very sturdy in temperament (good with everyone he has met ages 2-50) good with other dogs, is ball driven, already jumped off the dock after a thrown wubba, runs through his agility chute/tunnel....

I could write a novel  

I don't believe it is as simple as ASL= this and WGSL=that and WL=yet another thing. You need to look at the individual dogs, their pedigrees, the breeders program, and be able to describe to a breeder what you are looking for in a dog. Chances are you can find it within any type if you do your due diligence.


----------



## msvette2u

> I don't believe it is as simple as ASL= this and WGSL=that and WL=yet another thing.


:thumbup:

I meant to say, "cow hocked" is a product of bad breeding rather than a particular "line".


----------



## Narny

I want to say this to any ASL owner or anyone else that may have been offended, I really didnt mean to offend anyone and if I did offend you I am really sorry about that. It was a bit of ignorance on my part and I simply passed on the bad information that I had received.

Now I am going to go back and re read all of the posts as I wasnt able to post this earlier as I had to leave the house for a few.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

I have no idea who this breeder is so it's not a pitch. I was googling to find some pics of the different lines for you to see and this came up. There are some pics of ASL, WGSL, WL, and some other European line, all stacked. Keep in mind that there are other color representations so this is just one view.

German Shepherd types and bloodlines with pictures | German Shepherd types | German Shepherd dog | German Shepherds


----------



## Courtney

Narny said:


> I want to say this to any ASL owner or anyone else that may have been offended, I really didnt mean to offend anyone and if I did offend you I am really sorry about that. It was a bit of ignorance on my part and I simply passed on the bad information that I had received.
> 
> Now I am going to go back and re read all of the posts as I wasnt able to post this earlier as I had to leave the house for a few.


Narny, you're just trying to learn I think it's impossible not to repeat what we hear sometimes right or wrong. I have honestly never seen another breed of dog that varies in appearance as much as the GSD!


----------



## Castlemaid

I absolutely agree that one cannot get a feel for the general differences in the lines just by reading, no matter how thrustworthy a source. People really need to go out and see and experience the dogs themselves. 

I'm totally a working line nut, but when I first started reading about dogs and dog breeds in general, I came across a lot of warning (and rightly so) that working breeds like GSDs and Rottweilers, for example, need strong leadership, knowledgeable training, tons of exercise. The info I was reading was accurate, and I came to the conclusion that dogs bred for work where NOT for me. They felt like too much dog, and I did not feel like I would be up to the challenge. 

That is until I ended up with a Rottie mix, and got into dog training and Schutzhund. What I found from hands-on experience was that working lines where ABSOLUTELY for me! I loved everything about them, and they were a natural fit for my interests and lifestyle, and can't imagine owning anything else now. 

Just another example about the dangers of reading something and coming to a conclusion on one's own, I would have not had that insight and understand about working dogs if it was not for personal experience. 

Better to talk to people that have experience with the different lines, and go out and see for oneself the differences and similarities.


----------



## Emoore

For someone who wants a fabulous pet, someone who isn't looking to do hard-core Schutzhund or other protection sport, someone who wants a family companion for obedience or agility or rally, a well-bred American Show line dog can be an excellent choice. Tripp Hill Shepherds in Austin springs to mind.


----------



## DunRingill

martemchik said:


> There are plenty of American line dogs getting their UDX in AKC obedience and doing agility. They aren't all just bred to look pretty in the show ring.


Actually, there aren't a lot of GSDs (German OR American lines) getting their UDX in AKC Obedience. Last data I saw, a grand total of 10 GSDs earned a UDX1 in 2010. That's it. 5 finished the OM1, 2 finished an OTCh. 

There really aren't a lot of German Shepherds earning obedience titles. Sad but true.


----------



## martemchik

You really have to look at yourself and your lifestyle before you purchase a dog. Don't expect a dog to conform to your lifestyle, expect your lifestyle to conform to the dog. I got a working line because of things I read, he's a lot of dog. I don't do Schutzhund, but we train for obedience and rally 3 times a week. I never pictured myself doing that, but I fell in love with training, I also have the time to do so (no kids).

I defend ASLs because I have nothing against them. The people at my club that have ASL dogs made the right choice, they couldn't handle a dog like mine with their lifestyle. Now many people will argue that they shouldn't be bred just because someone wants a GSD, and that those people should just pick another breed, but we live in America, and everyone wants a GSD, especially when you see so many well trained ones. Not too many people understand the work that goes into getting a dog to that point.

I would rather have you get the dog that is closer to fitting your lifestyle so that there is no chance you want to rehome or get rid of it. A dog shouldn't be a burden, and some GSDs would be a burden on many people's lives.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

DunRingill said:


> Actually, there aren't a lot of GSDs (German OR American lines) getting their UDX in AKC Obedience. Last data I saw, a grand total of 10 GSDs earned a UDX1 in 2010. That's it. 5 finished the OM1, 2 finished an OTCh.
> 
> There really aren't a lot of German Shepherds earning obedience titles. Sad but true.



You're right, the numbers are very, very low. I did a 10 year comparison for 2000-2010, it was pretty dismal when you stop and consider how many GSD's there are in the AKC.


----------



## martemchik

DunRingill said:


> Actually, there aren't a lot of GSDs (German OR American lines) getting their UDX in AKC Obedience. Last data I saw, a grand total of 10 GSDs earned a UDX1 in 2010. That's it. 5 finished the OM1, 2 finished an OTCh.
> 
> There really aren't a lot of German Shepherds earning obedience titles. Sad but true.


I don't know where you found this data but there's at least 10 UDX dogs at my club...they didn't all achieve it in 2010 but I couldn't find any data relating to UDX and breeds. There's also few more than 10 UDX dogs on this forum as well. If anything this just proves how hard the title is to get.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> I don't know where you found this data but there's at least 10 UDX dogs at my club...they didn't all achieve it in 2010 but I couldn't find any data relating to UDX and breeds. There's also few more than 10 UDX dogs on this forum as well. If anything this just proves how hard the title is to get.


The AKC publishes it every year. I'm guessing the UKC and CKC do the same?


----------



## martemchik

Whiteshepherds said:


> The AKC publishes it every year. I'm guessing the UKC and CKC do the same?


Found it! It stinks but it doesn't tell you anything about the dog, just the owners. I mean 252 CDs is a joke also (I'm getting my second leg on Sunday). Sadly in the United States conformation titles make the breeders money not working titles. So the conformation is more popular because of a higher return on investment. I don't blame the dogs, I blame the society they live in. I mean, how many dog owners have ever been to an obedience trial? Maybe 1%?


----------



## DianaM

Off topic, but got to thinking about the shrinking UDX numbers.

Should we read into the amount of GSDs getting the UDX? With agility getting so popular and rally also getting popular, and now nosework, and also the increasing opportunities for protection work (USA, DVG, WDA, PSA) is it possible that more people are choosing these other venues as opposed to traditional obedience?


----------



## martemchik

DianaM said:


> Off topic, but got to thinking about the shrinking UDX numbers.
> 
> Should we read into the amount of GSDs getting the UDX? With agility getting so popular and rally also getting popular, and now nosework, and also the increasing opportunities for protection work (USA, DVG, WDA, PSA) is it possible that more people are choosing these other venues as opposed to traditional obedience?


I'm going to start a new thread for this...look for it.


----------

