# Thoughts?



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

The Rainbow Bridge Curse: Loving Dogs Into Dumbness - Bedlam Farm Journal Bedlam Farm Journal


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Learned helplessness....yup...seen it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Not just dogs, as the article says - I posted a picture of a sturdy little pony pulling two lawnmowers yesterday, and someone complained that they shouldn't make the pony work so hard! Um, isn't that what they are BRED to do??


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Most blatant example of dumbed down helplessness via human intervention is when I see a human pick up their ldog for no other reason than to get from here to there faster. i.e., snowbank at the edge of the park is a little bit high. The dog gets the lift up instead of the time and encouragement to allow him to figure it out and do it on his own. Or picked up while on a walk because human has no confidence that the dog has enough wits to keep himself clear from being stepped on.

The article talks about when dogs were free to roam. One of the most viscous examples of two dogs working out an issue came from our first dog. He was free roaming and lived pre-leash law. He and a few dogs would roam together from time to time. One of those dogs came in the yard and aggressively went at my son causing a dog fight between Tucker and that dog. Other than dh running out to break up the fight, No other human intervention occurred. We didn't contact the owner, the owner didn't contact us. Everyday after that the dog would cross the street if he had to pass our house. Tucker would just calmly watch him until he passed. They seemed to have come to a mutual understanding.

He also learned great recall through his own choice. We were camping. Again, no leash. He was hanging out at the edge of camp. Time to leave and when we called, he just looked at us. We packed the kids in the car and started to drive off. He decided to come running. (No we would never have left him.)

I would hate to face the first incident in this day and age: can imagine Headlines: dog attacked child, Tucker named hero. Neighbor counter sues for vet bills. AC takes and quarantines both dogs. Dogs returned with a muzzle order. Child needs psychological help to get over the trauma witnessed. And on and on and on. The truth of it is that both dogs were decent dogs and behaved just fine afterwards.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I agree with the majority of what was said in the article. My one nit would be it is a bit too cavalier on some topics that fall under responsible ownership, not babying and personifying. For instance when dogs die in hot cars. No I am not the type to break a car window without looking into things or making a phone call first, but ..you know, dog owners should know the basics. Hot car ok with proper ventilation (not just cracked windows). Don't give them bakers chocolate, stuff like that. We beat people up here when they are letting dogs off lead prematurely and we would absolutely judge someone who let their dog bite a child or let their dog get hit by a car.

We had a house in farmland in Lancaster when I was little. Yeah our dogs ran free and sometimes got the neighbors chickens, and we had to pay for them and they tore up a little boy's bunny in front of him once. That was NOT ok. My dad should have done better to contain them. Destroying people's property should never be viewed as a "hey it's dog what can you do" attitude. 

Granted it has gone way too far which I think is what the article means.. which I agree with. It just poo poos some basic dog owner responsibilities though. Maybe that was not the intention but it came out that way. 

I'd say I agree with 99% of the article, but I am not "that" Darwinian with my dog. I mean hey I like him and he cost a lot too. Though he is insured lol Still don't want him to get "runned over" in the road. 

Conversely I was talking to someone about home defense. Said my dog would be a great help if someone broke in..perimeter alarm, and buying me time by possibly engaging while I got ready to defend the family. A lady said but how do you shoot the bad guy but not your dog if they are tussling? I said shoot throughs count. She was horrified. I was horrified at how impractical she could be. It was a proposed scenario where kids are locked in bedroom while you deal with an intruder. Sorry buddy, I love you but we have to protect the kids. If a dog is programmed to lay his life down for you...let him. If he could talk Im sure he would rather die a hero than have his life spared if it meant harm would come to his people.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

When a dogs only job is to earn ribbons, the breed suffers also.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Same with children. Ever seen a kid with over protective parents. The kids grow up and have no idea how to handle life.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> Same with children. Ever seen a kid with over protective parents. The kids grow up and have no idea how to handle life.


It is mind numbing. I have been interviewing college aged kids lately. Oy. OOOOY.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> When a dogs only job is to earn ribbons, the breed suffers also.


Exactly. I don't follow any of that stuff, but I feel that line breeding from way back is one of the major problems with the breed (or any) today

I know the border collie people fight tooth and nail with the AKC to not make a border collie standard because it'll ruin the breed. It's a working dog, not a ribbon winning dog. (At least this is what I've heard)


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

So many typos it's as if I wrote it LOL.
I think it boils down to what people consider responsible ownership. I take my dogs well being almost as serious as my children.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

There is another piece there called Stewardship. It seems to contradict what was written in this one. I live in a slum, where it is common for dogs to be poisoned, stolen or let loose just for fun. Not to mention the hood rats that think it's sport to tease and torment through fences.
No chance of my dogs being let outside unattended. 
I was very secure in Buds ability to fend for himself, as just as sure that if I allowed that someone would sue me and Bud would be euthanized because he scared/chased/bite/scratched someone. 
I caught the junkies next door trying to steal Shadow as a pup. A few times.
Letting dogs be dogs is one thing, jeopardizing their well being knowingly is another.
We also need to keep in mind that some of us own dogs that never would have made it out of the barn in years past. How many of us as children watched or heard of pups being disposed of because "it's for the best" and how many breeders of dogs sat all night in whelping pens, or rushed the bitch in for an emergency c section 50 years ago? A far more likely scenario was the discovery of a dead bitch in the morning and the digging of a hole.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Same with children. Ever seen a kid with over protective parents. The kids grow up and have no idea how to handle life.


You beat me to it. Not all young adults are hopeless but too many are entering grown life unready for the realities of "adulting"


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

car2ner said:


> You beat me to it. Not all young adults are hopeless but too many are entering grown life unready for the realities of "adulting"


Or evening "teening" come to that....


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CometDog said:


> It is mind numbing. I have been interviewing college aged kids lately. Oy. OOOOY.


Employee-Why do you tell me what to do?
Me-Umm, I am your boss.
Employee-yes but why are you always in charge?
Me-umm, I'm your boss
Employee-But shouldn't we all be in agreement?
Me-Sort of but sometimes I just need you to do what I say.
Employee-But I don't like being told what to do
Me-Would you like my job?
Employee-Sure
Me-Great. But I don't like being told what to do
Employee-But I would be your boss. So I would have to tell you what to do.
Me-Correct. Now go do your job please.
Employee-that's not very nice

An actual conversation with a 22 year old employee.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

First, we don't make an animal dumber by the way we treat them. Just like Lamark was wrong when he thought giraffes grew longer necks, and could pass that trait on, by stretching to reach branches. Acquired inheritance is not a thing. Simple genetics and Darwinism proves that theory wrong. 

Second, there are so many rabid dogs in India that 20,000 !! people a year die from dog bites. That is a whole lot of people. Allowing dogs to simply roam and be dogs isn't beneficial to people or dogs. It's not a happy existence for people or dogs. 

But, I do wish we could live and let live a lot more. Certainly, stop treating dogs like spoiled children and allow them to be dogs. Let them roam off leash, let them feel the rain and snow on their coats (jackets aren't necessary for most dogs), and let them do what they were bred for, or a close facsimile there-of (there are some exceptions to this, but I don't want to go down that rabbithole... please). 

I've said this before, but I don't think the "good old days" we so very good for many dogs. I also think we really MUST train our dogs and manage them in today's society, because most of us don't live on farms where the dogs can just be outside and do their thing without much management or supervision. A dog being a dog will do things that are harmful or dangerous. 

If you love your dog, you train and contain him. It's just the way life is these days, and that doesn't mean dogs are dumber for it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I dont' think we make dogs dumber. I think we make them helpless. When they are never allowed to work thru stress. Or never allowed to figure out something on their own. Dogs no longer know how to communicate and function as dogs. Look at dogs that are free shaped vs dogs that are helped every step of the way. The dogs that have been trained to think with free shaping will work to find a solution. 



I don't think it's about genetics but more about how we teach them to function.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

@Sabis, your employee to boss dialog cracked me up. Lol. 




"I don't think it's about genetics but more about how we teach them to function."

I just remembered this memory. Hahahaha:

Case in point, when my boy was a pup, we use to pick him up to get into the car or truck. When he got a little bigger and heavier, he would put his fore legs in and we would heft his hind end up. One day when he was around 7months, and his front paws were up, He looked back at me with a what are you waiting for expression. That expression stopped me in my tracks. 

picking up and helping a healthy Shepherd is just embarrassing.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When this subject is brought up, it seems I can hear the crickets much better!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

How to avoid life is beyond me. Sometimes I Wish i was a chihihuahu and had owner that did not let me walk - kidding aside. I think this article is good for PETA also for many chihuahua owners who think their little dogs can’t walk. They can actually keep up with the big dogs and keeps their heart pumping. I always said this about the carriage horses working is keeps them alive and earns their keep. I also think at the same time when people disable their pets (mostly larger active breeds)and it happens to effects the owners lives in a negative way those dogs/animals are often tossed away. I remember back in the day that often happened dogs were let loose -chaos in the streets and many did not care if the dogs came home. You did not find all these rescue groups that they have now and often they were put to sleep at the pound.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I dont' think we make dogs dumber. I think we make them helpless. When they are never allowed to work thru stress. Or never allowed to figure out something on their own. Dogs no longer know how to communicate and function as dogs. Look at dogs that are free shaped vs dogs that are helped every step of the way. The dogs that have been trained to think with free shaping will work to find a solution.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's about genetics but more about how we teach them to function.


I would love to hear more about free shaping. Also, opinions on can we overtrain for sport or performance and also get the same undesired result? For instance I know this dog who is ON POINT. He will focus on his handler unbelievably. Unless someone else has "the ball on the string". He is very "work for the ball" driven. Great for safety, but good for the dog? I have been going back and forth on a few training methods (which I try to keep it in my head rather trying it on the dog as I am trying to avoid the dreaded inconsistency as much as possible) 

My dog had a great fuss/heel. But, he wasn't looking at me, and he is not in the perfect shoulder to thigh position.. He likes to look around. I got a lot of flack for that. Some of it is based in nerves, mild at best. He wasn't looking at me, but if I turned or stopped or ran he went right with me. I was reluctant to put too much energy in the "focused heel"..I wanted, rather, a "watch me" command. Also, as he is looking around why we are walking, if something different happens, whether it is a person approaching or another dog, he tends to stare at my face naturally, to look for my reaction and what is next. I totally see the value in the focused heel at this point, but WHY would anyone want a "default" focused heel, rather than a "watch me" command? Is it just for points? I guess what I mean is it seems the "look" command and "fuss" in sports have become one in the same. Am I correct at that, or am I interpreting wrong? Or am I watching the wrong people? I don't know. 

As far as over trained, what I mean is when a little WL progeny is so engaged from 8 weeks up, with ALL the focus being on markers, performance, just ..everything done in such a way it is geared towards getting those points when they can start the BH/IPO journey....does it also cause the dog to be helpless as well, because he is never allowed to screw up?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

CometDog said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont' think we make dogs dumber. I think we make them helpless. When they are never allowed to work thru stress. Or never allowed to figure out something on their own. Dogs no longer know how to communicate and function as dogs. Look at dogs that are free shaped vs dogs that are helped every step of the way. The dogs that have been trained to think with free shaping will work to find a solution.
> ...


 I can't attest to free shaping, as I don't have patience for a dog to figure out what I want them to do. I would rather show them then tell them. 
I think my wife is trying free shaping on me. Except she doesn't have much patience either it's usually just her saying "why didn't you do this or that" . I am like "I don't know, didn't know you wanted me to". She's like " well you should have known, I shouldn't have to tell you everything". To which I am like " yeah, you do, I'm not psychic, I don't know what you're thinking unless you use your words". So I would rather not put my dogs through anything remotely close to that.
As far as over training, my dogs know when we're working and when they can be dogs. Even still, Athena finds it OK to walk through stores in a focused heel. The responses from people are usually about the same. Wow, she really loves you, or I'll bet she doesn't get too far from you. She's watching your every move. I wish my dog was 1/2 that obedient.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

That was a fantastic answer/analogy lol


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

I am guilty of making my 3-yr-old Beau a little more helpless than he really needs to be. I’m trying to fix it! But when he yelped as a puppy, I babied him too often for too little. He still yelps when something startles him, or when he doesn’t like something. Since I stopped fussing over him it’s gotten less frequent, so I hope I can make a dogly dog of him yet.

Re: free shaping, if I understand the term, then just about everything Beau learns from me is free shaping. I am not a very good trainer. Really no instinct for it, though I’m trying to learn. Thank luck he is a very very smart dog. 

Beau knows cues for getting in his crate, leaving the dog park, heading home from a walk, drinking some water, picking up something I’ve dropped, fetching and catching his ball, Take It, Put It Here, Drop It, getting his dish to the door of his crate, taking a treat nicely from my hand, walking slowly, finding a specific toy (or sometimes, my other shoe), and a host of other useful acts. All as a result of me asking him to do X, and him figuring it out. Our trainer taught him Heel, his breeder taught him Sit, Stay, Down, and Leave It. Everything else (and there’s a lot) he figured out from me asking and pointing and saying Yes!! when he did it. 

Our trainer is trying to teach me how to actually train him so we can do some more structured (and more interesting!) activities for him. But getting along in daily living is all free shaping. I suspect in both directions.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Learned helplessness....yup...seen it.


 Make sure to let us know when the book has been published.
I cringed seeing these border collies. Neutering and spaying doesn't help either. I think, especially the males, get a more docile (dumber?) look. I have seen it in my dogs from the past. Please don't kill me over the internet :grin2:
It also goes for kids and any animal with a brain. I have pet mice and they are a lot more resourceful than the ones in the pet store whose only distraction is the mind-killing wheel.
Many kids grow up over protected and have lost initiative, creativity and resilience, only to be served and being entitled. Just kicked out a 20+ year old who was hoping to spend the summer at my place while working a few jobs. After two weeks, no job and no sign of any. So that was that; just nicely relaxing and doing nothing. He is the example of just that.


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