# Praise only training



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Recently there has been an uprise here locally of praise only training. I know I have my opinions on it however I would LOVE to get others views especially those reay knowledgeable in training methods.

I think it strikes me so bad because this person feels the need to bad mouth any other training such as treat, clicker, negative reinforcement etc.. talking about how uneducated people are and these methods aren't reliable and of course hes also a board and train so in my mind the poor uneducated owner will leave their dog with him and he'll lock it in a crate/kennel all day long except for the little bit of time hes working with the dog (if that) and of course it will want attention/praise because it's being ignored the rest of the time. We all know the issues of board and train but to know how hes getting the dogs to work makes me seriously question whats going on behind the scene.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

In the 'olden' days, the only way we knew how to train was to set our dogs up to FAIL, because only then could we 'correct' them to show them that was 'wrong'.

So our dogs learned by being wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong, correction correction correction correction, and eventually would figure out what to do that would STOP getting them yanked/cranked and corrected.

So the entire basis of that training was our dogs had to be 'wrong' so we could show them that was bad with the correction.

The newer type of training is much harder FOR THE HANDLER. Because instead of easily having a 'bad' dog we correct correct correct, we had to instead use our brains to figure out how we can CATCH our dogs being 'right' then SHOW them that was 'right' by an instant reward. So we reward the 'right' instead of correcting the wrong.

This makes our dogs have to THINK also and be a part of the training because they start to want to figure out HOW to get the rewards. The are excited and wanting to engage and be with us.

Rather than the 'old' training where the dogs are just desperately trying to figure out how to AVOID the pain/correction no matter what (leave the area, run home, STOP TRAINING WITH MOM/DAD?).

For trainers that refuse to learn anything new (though they sure have high expectations for their dogs to learn fast  ) and know that MOST of the dogs do learn with their method cause they want to avoid the consequences, they have continued to be closed minded and not use any of the new methods THAT DO WORK. *But the human needs to learn something new, NOT just the dog, and it's much harder to train us than a dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Positive training isn't permissive training. And though some people really only use 100% positive and it may work for them, many of us use a blend and it works for us. I find I can use a clicker/treats/toys AND a prong collar and my dog comes thru it well in the end!


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Recently there has been an uprise here locally of praise only training. I know I have my opinions on it however I would LOVE to get others views especially those reay knowledgeable in training methods.
> 
> I think it strikes me so bad because this person feels the need to bad mouth any other training such as treat, clicker, negative reinforcement etc.. talking about how uneducated people are and these methods aren't reliable and of course hes also a board and train so in my mind the poor uneducated owner will leave their dog with him and he'll lock it in a crate/kennel all day long except for the little bit of time hes working with the dog (if that) and of course it will want attention/praise because it's being ignored the rest of the time. We all know the issues of board and train but to know how hes getting the dogs to work makes me seriously question whats going on behind the scene.


 
I always challange the person asking about "praise only" methods to go out and observe the person doing/teaching this training. I'd be willing to bet that in fact, it is based in compulsion.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Recently there has been an uprise here locally of praise only training.


I read your post initial as positive only training... glad I reread 

Would you work everyday if all you ever got was a pat on the head? Some people might but I also think it depends on the job you are doing. No way would I work my day job for just praise (not even a cookie?!). 

Any trainer that thinks their way is the only way automatically loses points in my book. Generally, I find that the people who screech the loudest about how bad things like corrections and prong collars are, are the people who know the least about how to properly use them. Balance in everything is the way to go.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't mind the praise only training as I am starting to get into the obedience ring and praise is really the only reward we can use in there. I did clicker training when he was a puppy, but that gets old fast as you always have to have a clicker on you for whenever your dog does anything good. We also still train with treats as sometimes that is the only way to motivate him. I believe some dogs, like mine, don't always respond to praise. I do believe if he had gone through his whole life without being pet, he would be just fine. Sometime when we coddle him he looks like he is just putting up with it because we like it lol.

I just don't like when trainers try to sell their craft by putting down other people's craft. Lets face it, the praise only helps to develop a dog that wants to do good because it likes the outcome, not a dog that doesn't want to do bad due to the outcome. I don't think that this is always possible as a puppy or in a young age because at some point I see my dog not caring that he won't get praise and just doing what he wants to do.

I have kind of figured out from the forum that people that truly work their dogs in SAR, Schutzhund, and other jobs/sports like that don't correct when their dog is a puppy and let them get away with a lot more than the average pet owner. In the end they end up with a very obedient dog 2 or 3 years down the line. But for many people they can't afford that first 2 year period of a dog that isn't very obedient. After dealing with my first dog (this one) I promised myself that I would try more of the "praise only" on the next one and see what the difference is like, then I might understand what is better in the long run.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mthurston0001 said:


> I always challange the person asking about "praise only" methods to go out and observe the person doing/teaching this training. I'd be willing to bet that in fact, it is based in compulsion.


That would be my guess too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> In the 'olden' days, the only way we knew how to train was to set our dogs up to FAIL, because only then could we 'correct' them to show them that was 'wrong'.
> 
> So our dogs learned by being wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong, correction correction correction correction, and eventually would figure out what to do that would STOP getting them yanked/cranked and corrected.
> 
> So the entire basis of that training was our dogs had to be 'wrong' so we could show them that was bad with the correction.


Exactly, and other than the obvious problem with method, that MRL points out - dogs can shut down and stop trying after awhile, it's much more efficient to show your dog what you DO what from them than what you DON'T want. For any command you want to teach your dog there is one right response and any number of incorrect ones. Doesn't it make sense to reinforce the right one than to correct all the wrong ones? I don't want my dog to learn all the various things that AREN'T a sit, I want him to know what IS a sit! Or a down, or heel, or a recall....


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I too dislike trainers when they bash the other methods. If your methods are so much better than others then tell me about them, not how bad the other method is.

There are times when I only use praise, usually becasue she does something totally amazing and I was not "training" but it was real life. When I do this I become so animated and playful that she does respond. But if I were to reach down and scratch her chest and say good girl in a boring voice it's going in one ear and out the other.

In the class I'm in now, the trainer doesn't really use treats, but wants us to praise the dogs. I see very little praise going on. I'm the most "happy, sappy, animated praiser" in the group and I consider myself tame and boring compared to the good dog trainers.

When I was working towards going obedience ring I would practice a small section of the trial without treats and at the end praise her and then run towards the treat container to give her one. This way she knew it was coming after we completed a few sections. Build up upon that and make the time longer and longer. It was working.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Edit: Nevermind, I didn't realize this was praise only! So no treats or anything?


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Wolfie's obedience classes were praise only. I found that it works just as well as training with treats, which is what I was doing at home.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Abby's basic obedience class was treats only(praise was allowed) and it didn't work for her because she is not treat-motivated. The OP is asking for expert advice, which I am NOT. But experience and observation has shown (me, anyways) that all three methods (praise, treat, and correction) have their place depending on the dog and depending on what you are trying to accomplish. I don't count clicker because it can be used with praise and/or treat. I would hope that nobody would try to use clicker with correction.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> I would hope that nobody would try to use clicker with correction.


Why is that?


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

I think that it is a little far fetched to think that one style of training is the only acceptable way. Just as people learn in different ways, one style of training will not fit all dogs. I think praise only training should be used for very young pups (like when people first get them), but as they get older people need to figure out the mix that works best for their dog. 

I would never go to a trainer that kept encouraging me to use only one style of training when it didn't really work for my dog (and I learned that this year).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sharkey19 said:


> I think praise only training should be used for very young pups (like when people first get them), but as they get older people need to figure out the mix that works best for their dog.


Actually, I think it's the exact opposite - a brand new puppy is the perfect time to capture and reward any behavior that you like and want to encourage. The more you reinforce, the more the puppy is going to offer it up, and then you can put it on cue. Phasing out food rewards should come later, IMO.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Why is that?


Well, I am probably wrong but I thought the click was supposed be associated with reward rather than correction.
Feel free to click and correct me.
:crazy:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Well, I am probably wrong but I thought the click was supposed be associated with reward rather than correction.
> Feel free to click and correct me.
> :crazy:


The click is a marker to mark that an action or behavior was correct. Doesn't mean you can't use a correction (yes, no click) when something is not correct; assuming of course that the dog knows what they were told to do.

ETA: Theoretically, someone could go the other way and use the click as a negative marker if they really wanted to. It's just not the generally used method of a clicker. Afterall, a click means nothing to a dog until they are taught what it should mean.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I find people that do "xxxxx ONLY" training to be missing the boat. I don't care what you do, if you ONLY do that, you're missing out, i don't care if it's praise, food, clicker, giant fluffy squirrels, whatever


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I had a trainer once that recommended giving a strong correction and then praising like crazy... always seemed sorta contradictory to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

crackem said:


> ....giant fluffy squirrels, whatever


Oh, man - my dogs would be SO happy if they got giant fluffy squirrel rewards!!! :rofl:


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually, I think it's the exact opposite - a brand new puppy is the perfect time to capture and reward any behavior that you like and want to encourage. The more you reinforce, the more the puppy is going to offer it up, and then you can put it on cue. Phasing out food rewards should come later, IMO.


Woops! Totally agree. In my mind, "praise only training" processed as "positive reinforcement training". I totally agree. Lots of treats for good puppies! What I meant to say was that I agree in that we should avoid negative punishment training for young puppies. But ya, not only praise only to train them, definitely lots of treats!


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I had a trainer once that recommended giving a strong correction and then praising like crazy... always seemed sorta contradictory to me.


If they changed their behaviour after the correction then they properly reacted to the correction. This deserves reward.

Eg, If doggy is barking at a horse and this is not acceptable behaviour, a correction is given. If doggy stops focusing on the horse and chages that focus to the person on the end of the leash, that is rewarded.


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

Just praise training would never have worked with Rio. Treats and toys were needed in abundance when she was a puppy. We used treats for every behaviour and she caught on quickly. The only command I relied on praise for was 'Come' and that was accidental. I forgot treats a few times while out on walks as I'm very absent minded and tried to praise like a fool when she returned. This is now her worst command and we are still struggling with it. We have faded out treats slightly with the commands she knows well but they are still given. 
She is also very sensitive to correction, a verbal corrention is usually all that is needed so I'm sure she would have shut down at an early age if we'd yanked and cranked her.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't think it's possible to train without any corrections at all.

Yes, positive training is fantastic. I use the clicker and praise, treats, attention, or toy/tug for positive training. I use it for teaching something new and for proofing commands my dog has learned in various situations.

However, at some point in training, there have got to be corrections. It's not possible to train without corrections. You can "disconnect" from the dog by ignoring them for unwanted behavior. That's a correction. You can withhold the reward. That's a correction. You can make a sound or use a negative marker for doing the wrong thing. That's a correction. And then, of course, you have what most people think of a correction - giving a tug on the collar.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

One small thing to remember about the "old methods" that are so often denigrated by so many today (esp. the "positive only" fans) is that they also relied on TEACH FIRST and only correct when they knew the behavior and chose not to do it either thru resistance or just inattention due to a distraction.

Read the Bill Koehler (an often hated old school "yank and crank" reputation trainer and author) book and you see a great emphasis on first training, then testing to insure the dog "knows" the command and then "Proof' the command by having the dog execute the behavior under increasing levels of distance and distraction.

Many of the PO advocates in our local obedience club are kind of funny - whenever their dog doesn't behave correctly when given a command - there is ALWAYS an excuse to make it "unfair" to the dog to demand the proper behavior.

Example - a group sit stay for the Open (3 minutes!). The dog layed down in two instances. The handler/trainer (PO person) explained the reason why the dog screwed up was "because we were doing the group on a rubber matt and the lines/grooves in the matt were the wrong direction so the poor dog couldn't maintain a sit because he slipped/slid along the grooves"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And to top it off, the next week in class we actually lined up the other way without the grooves and the dog layed down again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is why one must "PROOF" a dog (give them a chance to "Fail" and learn that is not acceptable.

I can't yet claim that my dog is 100% but I think that a "Stay" SHOULD be a stay short of some threat that would cause physical harm to the dog. I.E. a ball bounced along the line of dogs should not trigger a move nor should a dog walking along the line or even running along, etc. etc.

How do you train/insure that without "Proofing"? (I.E. "giving the dog a chance to Fail"?)

Just a couple of thoughts!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, I train with someone who has a rep of being more 'compulsion' based, but rewards with great timing and is fair. 
She wants the dog to succeed, so proofing is required always. The dog has to know there is no other option but to do what is asked. 
Since I've been training with her(started in Jan/2011), my dog has shown me more respect, gained work ethic, stamina to do what is asked, and does it happily. It is mental exercise for a dog to have to make the decision to not fail. I've seen him mature so much during this time...it is age and training combined~if I wasn't doing this type of training, not sure his mental maturity would have come along as it has.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've found that rewarding with a toy or food will bring up drive and it is necessary for my dog. 
If I just use praise(which I've experimented with lately) he tends to go flat during the BH pattern. I've phased out the ball/tug reward for the past few training sessions with my club when we train. It shows in his focus.
I think balance is key to keeping the dog engaged and will go back to ball reward next session, just to see how he does. 
We are trialing in a few weeks and all I'll have is myself to keep him engaged, so I need to let him know that he is doing a great job, even though he isn't getting paid constantly to do it.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i used praise and treats as part (a big part) of my training.
i didn't see the need for correction because i'm teaching
him something he doesn't know. what's there to correct???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When you have to proof the dog, then corrections come into play, not during the teaching/ learning stage. 
BUT proofing will teach _you_ more about your dog, so proofing is very important. 

Proofing doesn't mean the dog has to be corrected, but when the dog knows what is expected and doesn't do it, then you should not let them get away with it.
And adding in some challenges to what the dog knows shows the dog that there is more to the lesson. It will bring up the dogs confidence when he knows/shows you what is asked and then some.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i didn't think of your examples as corrections. i definitely
used a sound, a word, hand clap, stomp my feet, etc.
for some reason i didn't see these actions as a correction.



AbbyK9 said:


> However, at some point in training, there have got to be corrections. It's not possible to train without corrections.
> 
> >>>>>> You can "disconnect" from the dog by ignoring them for unwanted behavior. That's a correction. You can withhold the reward. That's a correction. You can make a sound or use a negative marker for doing the wrong thing. That's a correction.<<<<<<


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

yeaha...I trained Jax with "praise only" training, which as someone else noted was actually compulsion.

My new theory on this method is...

If you went to work Monday - Friday and were expecting paycheck on Friday but instead got a pat on your head and a Good Job, would you come back on Monday?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

This is a great article explaining exactly what positive training entails and what it is not:
Do Treats and Kisses Lead to Training Misses? | Austin Dog Zone

A poster is correct, positive training is NOT permissive. ^Article above is worth reading.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Basically, praise only is fine if that's the reward your dog will work for. I use praise, treat, toy & a variety of clicker training in that you mark, name & reward the behavior. 
The name "praise only" implies that there is no negative correction. Because that would not be praise.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> The click is a marker to mark that an action or behavior was correct. Doesn't mean you can't use a correction (yes, no click) when something is not correct; assuming of course that the dog knows what they were told to do.
> 
> ETA: Theoretically, someone could go the other way and use the click as a negative marker if they really wanted to. It's just not the generally used method of a clicker. Afterall, a click means nothing to a dog until they are taught what it should mean.


Well, that clears it up.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i wouldn't come back for a pat on the head but
we're talking about dogs so i think a dog would come
back for a pat on the head and never for a pay check. 



Jax08 said:


> yeaha...I trained Jax with "praise only" training, which as someone else noted was actually compulsion.
> 
> My new theory on this method is...
> 
> If you went to work Monday - Friday and were expecting paycheck on Friday but instead got a pat on your head and a Good Job, would you come back on Monday?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> yeaha...I trained Jax with "praise only" training, which as someone else noted was actually compulsion.
> 
> My new theory on this method is...
> 
> If you went to work Monday - Friday and were expecting paycheck on Friday but instead got a pat on your head and a Good Job, would you come back on Monday?


 
If you were supposed to go to work each day (Learned the command!) and didn't go in Wed. because you wanted to go to the beach - would you expect a full paycheck on Friday? 

And would you expect to hear something (A correction?) from your boss when you didn't show up Wed.?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Most great trainers use combinations of techniques that are dependent on the individual dog's temperament and drives. Absolutes are "never" effective with all dogs, just like the same teaching method doesn't work as well with all kids. People learn new things become obsessed and think it is the only :slice of bread"....You learn to smile and nod your head and keep your thoughts to yourself. Codmaster, gave good explantion,imo, in his post with Bill Koehler in it.JMO


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> yeaha...I trained Jax with "praise only" training, which as someone else noted was actually compulsion.
> 
> My new theory on this method is...
> 
> If you went to work Monday - Friday and were expecting paycheck on Friday but instead got a pat on your head and a Good Job, would you come back on Monday?


To some dogs, praise is a paycheck, a treat is a bonus. And they don't need a bonus every time they do the right thing. A paycheck is sufficient.
When you volunteer to do something (help out, etc) you are happy with a pat on the head since you are doing it because you want to. There is a point in training where the dog volunteers to do the right thing and a pat on the head is all that is needed.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm starting to see more and more that it's not about praise vs. rewards vs. corrections nor is it about compulsion vs induction so much as it is about timing. I know it's obvious to many of you but I'm just realizing it myself. The well timed correction is just as effective as the well timed reward and both do nothing for the dog if they are too late or too early...


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

Just to offer a different kind of angle to the praise-only story: Cris was five and a half years old and 102 lbs., weighed at the vets on the day she became our girl....(hers was a situation of life-happens, not of abuse nor neglect). We figured about 30 lbs needed to come off her. So pretty much it was straight forward praise-only for the first nine months ....and that's how I learned a dog, at least a dog like Cris, will absolutely respond very positively to just the sound of LAUGHTER as praise. To this day, even tho she's been getting treat-rewarded because she's maintained the weight loss.....holey buckets of holy water she gets so tickled by my or GM's laughing. lol.

*From tuckered out* (Cris on the far right) after less than a mile trot:









*To a rocket* after a four mile run:









To be clear, we pretty much used praise-only for about the first nine months, and we did that because she really needed to lose weight for bettering her health situation.

Long Live Cris!:wub:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

What the heck kind of dog do you have that changes color!??? like an Artic fox????


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

What the heck kind of dog do you have that changes color!??? like an Artic fox????

I would never say JUST using praise won't work. I've seen dogs trained in many different ways. Alot of different stuff works, so if you just want to say 'my dog sits and I just ask them, so just asking works' you may be right.

But I don't just want the end behavior. In fact when I start training I don't care if my dog does it 100% of the time or even well. My training goals are NOT just the end behavior and I think that's what confuses many people (or they just have a lower expectation for their dog and that gets met).

What I WANT is drive and enthusiasm. I want my dog to be crazy to train and learn with/from me. When we go out in the yard to train I want a dog bouncing up and down and air snapping and ready to go go go and LEARN. And NOT HAVE TO USE A LEASH to 'make' my dog stay with me a 'make' my dog do what I want. 

I think that type of engagement and drive to learn is very hard to get from a dog that's only getting a pat on the head and an occasional 'good dog'. 

So when I think of training my dog, my mental picture isn't merely the simple action of the end behavior (my dog going 'down'). It's an entire and HUGE picture of my dog bouncing into me as we get ready to train, looking up at me dying to start, air snapping and barking to get me to START ALREADY, offering behaviors cause they are so anxious to learn and get rewarded from me. Of course I will want that 'down' in the session, but I also don't merely want a 'down'. I want it FAST, slamming down with the dog grinning up at me cause they are so proud! And doing it again and again cause they really love going 'down' cause they WANT to. Not cause I used the leash /collar to make them. But because I showed them, they get it, and the REWARD IS REALLY WORTH IT!











Look how this dog is wearing a leash/collar but it's not being USED and this is to teach heeling


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> What the heck kind of dog do you have that changes color!??? like an Artic fox????


LOL!!! Bless your heart! Just about everybody wants to know about that including us. Cris is out of working lines...she wasn't bred for color. I'm guessing it's due to the time of year that her coat changes....such as length of daylight that affects it the most. I'll be more sure as time passes. The higher quality of her meals might be another reason.....I can't be sure yet until we've got another season under our belts.


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

*What I WANT is drive and enthusiasm. I want my dog to be crazy to train and learn with/from me. When we go out in the yard to train I want a dog bouncing up and down and air snapping and ready to go go go and LEARN. And NOT HAVE TO USE A LEASH to 'make' my dog stay with me a 'make' my dog do what I want.*

That's Cris! At least now.....not so much when we first brought her home.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I also think that depends on the experience of the trainer and what you want from your dog. When I see the Schutzhund type of heeling with the dog looking straight at the handler and not getting off their leg, its cool, but it's not something I want. At a young age my boy didn't really want to heel, he would be at my side but at least a yard away, and if there were other dogs around (like in training class) I had to give him a few snaps to get him closer. Food wasn't doing it for him when other dogs were around, and a pat on the head and my excitement was the last thing he wanted, he wanted to play with the other dogs. On the next one I will try to do as much "praise only" as possible, but I know I'll fail at one point, or if the next one's personality is anything like this one's, corrections will be the only way to get it through his skull.

Gmthurst, did she really go from white to black? I have a sable, he changes, but that's the most dramatic change I have ever seen! Tell the truth, was there a mud puddle involved?


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

OOooh! Now I see what you're talking about....not her actual coat color changes....but the differences of lighting....full sun vs. shade. The first shot is direct full sun beating down on the subjects....(and my inability to find precise focus due to my eyesight....at that time I didn't realize just how severely my sight declined, which has even worsened since then). The second shot was beneath the shadow of the lanai (back patio roofing).....(and I notice how much better the focus is in that shot....which my husband took that one....lol).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

PaddyD said:


> There is a point in training where the dog volunteers to do the right thing and a pat on the head is all that is needed.


Absolutely, and I don't see anyone here disputing that. If you're doing a good job training, even if you use tons of food and/or toy rewards you're still going to get to the point where you don't need to be constantly rewarding every little thing the dog does. If the dog refuses to comply if you don't, you're not a very good trainer and failed to properly apply the concepts, it's not that the method was flawed. 

Nobody is saying that there isn't a place for corrections, or compulsion, or that every dog should be trained in exactly the same way. This thread was started because the OP knows a local trainer who says that using ANY reward other than "just praise" for ANY dog under ANY circumstances is inherently bad - that people who use food or toys are ignorant and will have unreliably trained dogs, that his way is the only right way to train. 

That's the issue we're debating here. Does anyone agree with this trainer?


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This thread was started because the OP knows a local trainer who says that using ANY reward other than "just praise" for ANY dog under ANY circumstances is inherently bad - that people who use food or toys are ignorant and will have unreliably trained dogs, that his way is the only right way to train.
> 
> That's the issue we're debating here. Does anyone agree with this trainer?


Absolutely not. I agree that for SOME dogs, praise from their owner is the greatest thing EVER and they would work all day long for a kind word or a pat.

Other dogs are motivated by food, others prefer play. The key is to find what motivates your particular dog.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I had a trainer once that recommended giving a strong correction and then praising like crazy... always seemed sorta contradictory to me.


It's not, really.....I think the idea is, you move on after the correction. You don't leave the dog hanging there dwelling on the correction.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Most great trainers use *combinations* of techniques that are dependent on the individual dog's temperament and drives. Absolutes are "never" effective with all dogs, just like the same teaching method doesn't work as well with all kids. People learn new things become obsessed and think it is the only :slice of bread"....You learn to smile and nod your head and keep your thoughts to yourself. Codmaster, gave good explantion,imo, in his post with Bill Koehler in it.JMO


Yep, great post. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> What I WANT is drive and enthusiasm. I want my dog to be crazy to train and learn with/from me. When we go out in the yard to train I want a dog bouncing up and down and air snapping and ready to go go go and LEARN. And NOT HAVE TO USE A LEASH to 'make' my dog stay with me a 'make' my dog do what I want.
> 
> I think that type of engagement and drive to learn is very hard to get from a dog that's only getting a pat on the head and an occasional 'good dog'.
> 
> So when I think of training my dog, my mental picture isn't merely the simple action of the end behavior (my dog going 'down'). It's an entire and HUGE picture of my dog bouncing into me as we get ready to train, looking up at me dying to start, air snapping and barking to get me to START ALREADY, offering behaviors cause they are so anxious to learn and get rewarded from me. Of course I will want that 'down' in the session, but I also don't merely want a 'down'. I want it FAST, slamming down with the dog grinning up at me cause they are so proud! And doing it again and again cause they really love going 'down' cause they WANT to. *Not cause I used the leash /collar to make them*. But because I showed them, they get it, and the *REWARD IS REALLY WORTH IT*!


YES!!!!!!!!! I love the way you phrased that and it's *exactly* how I want to go about things.!!!!!!!!! I was amazed, just tonight, that Bails and I went out in the yard and worked on heel offleash. Prior, we've *always* worked heel on a prong. HE DID 100 TIMES BETTER on his heel and sit than he has EVER done on the prong. I was honestly *amazed*, happy and so proud of him! He did NOT need the corrections after all! Yes, I used treats, but his sits were nearly perfect, immediate and usually straight ahead (we've had issues that he likes to go sideways). 

It simply was amazing and I was _giddy_ with the joy of how well he worked! So I had a real realization moment that this dog loves to work for treats AND praise, so corrections, at this point, are just *not* what will get us where we want to be. Perhaps later, yes. If he is willfully disobeying, perhaps. But not now. For NOW, this dog loves to please. Treats are a nice reinforcement.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> i didn't think of your examples as corrections. i definitely
> used a sound, a word, hand clap, stomp my feet, etc.
> for some reason i didn't see these actions as a correction.


Why would you not view them as corrections?

A reward is when something positive happens and a correction is when something negative happens. Receiving no attention for an action is something negative, for example.

That's why behaviors that are "ignored" - like when you turn around and away from your dog when he jumps up on you - go away. They're being corrected. Whereas, if you pushed the dog away for jumping and yelled at him, you'd be rewarding him (with attention) and the behavior stays.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> Why would you not view them as corrections?
> 
> A reward is when something positive happens and a correction is when something negative happens. Receiving no attention for an action is something negative, for example.
> 
> That's why behaviors that are "ignored" - like when you turn around and away from your dog when he jumps up on you - go away. They're being corrected. Whereas, *if you pushed the dog away for jumping and yelled at him, you'd be rewarding him (with attention) and the behavior stays*.


 
*Interesting reasoning!*

So if I "ignore" a dogs bad behavior, i.e. counter surfing and grabbing something to eat from the counter, then he will *reason* that this is "bad" behavior and stop doing it on his/her own?

Guess that I must have a really dumb GSD cause I think that my dog would think "Hey cool! I can do what I feel like and grab that snack without any bad consequences and the good result of a nice snack!".

On the other hand, you say that the dog would like the physical correction and verbal correction of a harsh voice of jumping and will thus keep jumping even more, right?

Very interesting, indeed!

Guess your dog(s) must really think differently than all of the ones I have owned in the last 35+ years!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Apparently there's no need for a sarcasm font when your that well versed in the language. My screen is dripping.

Anyway, you're talking about two completely different behaviors. Ignoring jumping up on a person is completely different than ignoring jumping up on a counter to get food.

You can fix counter surfing without physical corrections, too: don't leave any food out!

I've found its actually quite difficult to stop counter surfing with corrections, because the reward (food) is too great.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Apparently *there's no need for a sarcasm font *when your that well versed in the language. My screen is dripping.
> 
> Anyway, you're talking about *two completely different behaviors*. Ignoring jumping up on a person is completely different than ignoring jumping up on a counter to get food.
> You can fix counter surfing without physical corrections, too: *don't leave any food out! *
> ...


*Didn't know there was such a thing, thanks!*

*Yes, two different behaviors, but both undesirable and a PITA. But both need to be stopped and quickly. *
*Actually the behaviors are very similar in intent - the dog WANTS to do either for something good to him/her. He/she enjoys doing either. The owner wants the behavior to stop.*

*Are you saying to ignore some bad behavior and correct for the others? If so, how do we ordinary (non pro) owners tell the difference so we would know how to stop it?*

*On the other hand, your comment sounds like your solution to some bad behavior is just to avoid the situation/temptation - is that true or did I misinterpret your suggestion of "Don't leave any food out"?*

*So if I follow this approach, if my dog guards his food, I don't let anyone or other dog around him; if he barks at strangers, don't let any strangers around him; if he won't come when called, don't call him, etc. etc. etc. Or have I misunderstood what you said when you said, if the dog counter surfs, don't correct him; just don't leave any food or anything the dog likes on the counter?*

*I am sorry but I personally could not live with that approach to training my dog. Seems like we are not training at all, just managing our dog so he/she never has to do what he is told to do when he is told to do it. *

*That approach actually sounds exactly like what a couple of positive only pro trainers here in my local area do use and tell their students. Didn't work for me at all!*


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> *Interesting reasoning!*
> 
> So if I "ignore" a dogs bad behavior, i.e. counter surfing and grabbing something to eat from the counter, then he will *reason* that this is "bad" behavior and stop doing it on his/her own?
> 
> ...


You're not being fair and trying to compare apples to oranges in a way. 

The poster referred to ignoring the dog when it jumps up. You then took it to a different level by trying to compare counter surfing. Perhaps your opinion on correction for each behavior is the same, and that's peachy, but don't misconstrue and take it in a different direction than was the original intent.

The poster being responded to in such a sarcastic manner did not specifically speak of behaviors that should be ignored vs should be dealt with. There is a place, I think, in my super duper humble opinion, that you should deal with by ignoring the dog. You simply took it several steps further in specifically bringing in counter surfing, which in most owners' minds, I would think, would deserve correction rather than ignoring.

35 years, that's terrific. You surely have all the answers, then. I'd think with all that experience that you could spew all the answers with a little less vitriol.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> You're not being fair and trying to compare apples to oranges in a way.
> 
> The poster referred to ignoring the dog when it jumps up. You then took it to a different level by trying to compare counter surfing. Perhaps your opinion on correction for each behavior is the same, and that's peachy, but don't misconstrue and take it in a different direction than was the original intent.
> 
> ...


A "little" sarcastic yourself? Or are you just against "old" people?

Did you fail to note that I simply asked the poster if he/she distinguished between bad behaviors that he/she would just ignore (and hope that that approach would somehow cause it to stop and the bad behaviors that he/she would correct somehow. 

I obviously just picked countersurfing as an example of an annoying but harmless bad behavior of dogs. Can you think of one that you might consider more like "apples and oranges" with jumping on someone? If so, then just substitute it in my post. 

And then perhaps try to answer the training question that I asked. 

*(And please, if you can, leave my age out of your answer). *

Unless of course if you really think that my age has anything to do with this whole discussion topic. 

Since you jumped on me for asking it, I would guess that you yourself would also not want to try to answer that question - correct?

Is that comparing "apples to oranges" also?

BTW, nice word "vitriol" - *something highly caustic or severe in effect*


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> A "little" sarcastic yourself? Or are you just against "old" people?
> 
> Did you fail to note that I simply asked the poster if he/she distinguished between bad behaviors that he/she would just ignore (and hope that that approach would somehow cause it to stop and the bad behaviors that he/she would correct somehow.
> 
> ...


Well, you DID throw in the 35 year thing.. so I went with it. Am I against "old" people? Most certainly not. I'm old in some circles of thinking at 41. My parents are "old" in others' circle of thinking. I *like* "old." *That's usually where the most knowledge is*. Often the most stubborn and set in their ways, too, though.  I do say that with *respect*, however. (Really)

Yes, indeed, a little sarcastic myself. I like sarcasm, to an extent. A little cynicism is in my bag at times, too. 

I cannot see where you asked the poster to differentiate between behaviors that would require ignoring vs correction. Just re-read and nope, can't find that question. 

I'm confused by: <<Since you jumped on me for asking it, I would guess that you yourself would also not want to try to answer that question - correct?>>

This question? <<Can you think of one that you might consider more like "apples and oranges" with jumping on someone?>>

First, I will say I do *not* believe that the answer to counter surfing is to simply remove the food. As you stated, that is *_management_* and *not* _control_. Completely agree with that.

I think you have to be careful here, because once a dog finds he can find great rewards on the counter he will be that much harder to break of it. I have placed yummy stuff on the counter and snuck around the corner, just waiting for him to go for it, simply so I CAN do the correction. And it is harsh. I don't hit my dogs, never have, I don't mean that... but they do get mama's full wrath. It is *totally* unacceptable to steal from my counter and my pup *must* know he will meet with the full extent of correction. So this may be seen as management, in that I make sure he cannot grab something UNTIL I'm ready for him to try it... so I can swoop in.

Some people don't have the same opinion of the problem of counter surfing. I despise it and can't stand for it. My dogs are never allowed people food as the people are eating. They've never once been fed from the table or anywhere I'm eating. I eat first and they might occasionally get scraps but only well after the humans are done. I've had too many friends who feed their dogs scraps AS they eat and it makes for a whiny jerk of a dog too often. Not here. 

So, to me, my "apple" would be counter-surfing, in this instance. My "orange" would be... excitement (happy excitement) and forgetting his manners and jumping up on someone. (just to use the original issues.)

Countersurfing will be met with a harsh owner reaction. Jumping up will be met with a stern and enforced OFF. Countersurfing, once taught it is unacceptable, is disobedience. Jumping up is a happy, perhaps overstimulated, excited dog. 

I guess we all have our opinions as to what is acceptable vs not acceptable behavior. To state again, I don't like the idea of simple management. It may be effective, but it is a PITA to the owner and something the owner must continue for the entire course of the dog's life??!! Nah.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Someone needs to go back and read the original list of corrections I posted, which range from ignoring a behavior to giving a physical correction. 

Another poster said that he had never thought of some of them as being a "correction" - like using the disconnect (ignoring) as a correcting. But it is and there are situations where it is a perfectly appropriate and sensible choice whereas a different type of correction would give you a very different result.

Jumping up onto a person is such a situation. You can turn away and make the dog "invisible" (ignore him) until the behavior stops and an appropriate behavior (such as the dog sitting or standing with all four paws on the ground) occurs, which you then reward. On the other hand, making physical contact (pushing the dog off) or shouting can just reinforce the behavior because the dog IS receiving attention.

Another example where ignoring works as a correction is barking or whining in the crate when you're crate training. If you go check on the dog every time he whines and take him out to comfort him, you're reinforcing that whining = attention. If you ignore the behavior and instead go and take him out when he's quiet, you're reinforcing that quiet = attention, whining = no attention.

There are plenty of other types of corrections, from voice to physical that have plenty of other places in training where they're used.

I don't understand why people think correction must equal physical force.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

MHO, which is probably not worth much here, but...there are different ways of training, just as there are different ways of correcting. Most of them have their time and place. What works for one behavior may not work for another. But whichever method is chosen, it must be used with fairness, consistency and probably most importantly, with belief behind it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

:thumbup:rocketdog

Totally agree, I am all for what works with that particular dog, whether it be a food reward for something, a toy, praise, and I also believe corrections have their place for certain instances.

Masi is not 'into' food rewards AT ALL, but get a tug, a frisbee, and that is her JACKPOT as well as Praise..Do I use corrections at times? You betcha. 

My aussie on the other hand who is a submissive little creature, was all food based reward,,correct her, and she shuts down big time. 

All of the gsd's I've had at one point or another needed a correction, and it didn't hurt their 'feelings', it didn't make them shut down, correct, they got over it , "ok lets move on" attiude..

Masi did not do well nor enjoy a purely positive class, (long story),,I went to a trainer who used the older Koehler method along with Praise, and it wasn't just 'yank and crank'..No food, PRAISE ONLY...and ya know what? She LOVED IT! 

For a dog who didn't want to enter the building at the PP classes, to a dog who dragged me into the "other" classes, it worked for her..

So ya go with what works..


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

I am by no means any kind of expert, but have to say that I don't think there is any way I could raise a dog without corrections. Counter surfing is a huge thing for me too. There is absolutely no way never to have food out....after all in the midst of preparing a meal, your back has to be turned at times...you may have to leave the room to get another supply, etc. I want to be able to trust my dog to leave my things alone, including food!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I am not a "pro" dog trainer and I can grasp the concept of different consequences for different behavior. It's not that difficult. Humans are not robots, and neither are dogs. There isn't a "one size fits all" cookie cutter technique for everything.



codmaster said:


> *On the other hand, your comment sounds like your solution to some bad behavior is just to avoid the situation/temptation - is that true or did I misinterpret your suggestion of "Don't leave any food out"?*
> 
> *So if I follow this approach, if my dog guards his food, I don't let anyone or other dog around him; if he barks at strangers, don't let any strangers around him; if he won't come when called, don't call him, etc. etc. etc. Or have I misunderstood what you said when you said, if the dog counter surfs, don't correct him; just don't leave any food or anything the dog likes on the counter?*


Again, this is absolutely ridiculous thinking and you're taking it to the extreme. I would guess you are intelligent enough to know that and are simply being sarcastic and purposefully "over the top" in your answer. Either that, or no matter what undesirable behavior your dog offers, you crank the heck out of him. To each their own, I guess.

IMO and IME, the best way to train is to *avoid setting your dog up to fail*. If he barks at strangers, start small and don't bombard him with strangers, work in a low distraction area with a single stranger rather than a giant crowd of people. If he doesn't know proper recall, don't expect him to come when he calls, but instead teach him to come and reward him for doing so *in a controlled environment* before expecting him to come in a distracting one.

But, yes, don't leave food on the counter for a counter surfing dog to find. If the dog jumps up on the counter, eats the food and THEN you correct him, *he still got to eat the food*. He got what he wanted in the first place, so what you're teaching him is to eat the food quickly before you get there. The fact that he gets corrected doesn't matter, because the reward already occurred. 

But I suspect that any of what I say is going to be disregarded by you, because you obviously are set in your own training methods and everyone else's are wrong... and that's just fine. Personally, I'm still a "newbie" to the training world and am soaking up and learning as much as I possibly can. I'm just relating what worked for me, for friends' dogs I've worked with, and what makes the most sense to me. 



RocketDog said:


> MHO, which is probably not worth much here, but...there are different ways of training, just as there are different ways of correcting. Most of them have their time and place. What works for one behavior may not work for another. But whichever method is chosen, it must be used with fairness, consistency and probably most importantly, with belief behind it.


Actually, it's worth a lot. Great post.


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