# To Those of You That Want A Cheap Puppy



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Cheap puppy = BYB (usually)

If you want a cheap BYB dog, go to the shelter and save one.

Buying a puppy from a BYB will cause them to produce more puppies. If they are not making money, then they will not produce more dogs.

You're not saving a puppy by getting it from a BYB, you're giving the BYB more reason to keep producing puppies.

You have a better chance getting a healthier puppy if you go with a Reputable Breeder than getting one from a BYB. However, there is still a chance that you can get an unhealthy puppy from a Reputable Breeder, but the chance is smaller. 

Do not support BYB's, please get your puppy from a Reputable Breeder!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would like to add that I got my GSD from a BYB, I didn't know any better. He's a great dog and everything that I wanted but he isn't even 2 years old yet so who knows what health problems might come up in the future. 

I will never support a BYB again.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Many people don't think a $350 puppy is "cheap".


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would think it is cheap, rescues usually adopt dogs out for $200-$250. 

$350 sounds pretty cheap to me for a PB puppy.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I am not trying to steal your thread or anything, but I was wondering if there is a thread helping people identify a BYB. I mean some of the BYB's have pretty fancy websites and really put on a good show for people. Is it just the cheap price that helps you recognize that they are BYB breeders? If they are cheap then they are a BYB breeder? I am just wondering like I said because I would say 98% of all the classifieds I see then would be a BYB? I am not arguing that they aren't because they are, but are there other ways to help people to tell the difference between reputable and BYB?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Did you see this thread?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

This chart is pretty good too:
http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html

To me, the quickest way to separate the two has been to ask, "Why did you breed these two dogs?" A Byb will say something like, "Well, she's really gorgeous and my brother had this good-looking male and they both have really nice temperaments." 

A responsible breeder will talk for ever about the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, using phrases like "I brought Sven in to balance out the structure," or "I used an Arko son to improve hips" or "Quanda always brings strong pigment and a healthy prey drive," or "Kimi puppies tend to have an off-switch."


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I am not trying to steal your thread or anything, but I was wondering if there is a thread helping people identify a BYB. I mean some of the BYB's have pretty fancy websites and really put on a good show for people. Is it just the cheap price that helps you recognize that they are BYB breeders? If they are cheap then they are a BYB breeder? I am just wondering like I said because I would say 98% of all the classifieds I see then would be a BYB? I am not arguing that they aren't because they are, but are there other ways to help people to tell the difference between reputable and BYB?


You can ask whatever questions you like. 

I would say

1) Price

2) Are the dogs OFA'd?

3) Do they do any titling or showing or working with their dogs?

4) How many litters do they produce a year?

5) Do they let you choose whatever puppy you like?

6) Do they let you take home 2 or 3 puppies?

7) Do they ask you any questions or are they just interested in selling you a puppy?

8) Are they breeding dogs that are under 2 years old?

9) How many times do they breed one female a year?

10) Are they breeding females passed the age of 7? 

Those all say BYB to me.


That's all I can think of right now, sorry.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you both. I am not looking for another GSD. I can't handle another one right now. I was just wondering how to choose a reputable breeder in the future for a small breed dog(min pin). I know I will want another one in the future and was trying to do research, but I was quite confused about how to properly identify a BYB. That chart is very helpful-Thanks Emoore. 
Thank you LaRen.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Just noticed that the chart has a couple of things that apply specifically to Boxers, as it's from a Boxer organization. But 99% of the chart is applicable to all breeds. Some of the health tests that they mention apply to health issues that are prevalent in Boxers. You would want to ask your breeder for health tests that apply to GSDs, mostly hip/elbow x-rays.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

and the breeder will have a contract with you...that if ever you can't keep the dog...for the life of the dog...the dog is returned to the breeder....because they care...and never want to see their dogs passed around or end up in shelters.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I would like to add that I got my GSD from a BYB, I didn't know any better. He's a great dog and everything that I wanted but he isn't even 2 years old yet so who knows what health problems might come up in the future.
> 
> I will never support a BYB again.


_____________________
So did I, but 'my' BYB breeds seldom and selectively. I was fortunate to get a granddaughter of a Grand Victor for much less than a pet shop price. Not all BYBs are bad for the breed, some are just low-key about it. BTW, Some rescues in this area charge around $500 for the privilege.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

We were very lucky with our first GSD 11 years ago. It was clearly a BYB in which we purchased her. She was a beautiful dog who was easy to train. She did have 1 displasic hip (we gave her zubrin to help inflamation) and we did need to have her spleen removed at the age of 7 so the cost eventually was the same as buying from a reputable breeder in the long run, I guess... lol

With our newest puppy (my avatar) we decided to purchase from a reputable long-standing breeder in the area. Cost was significantly more, but I can't wait to see how different the new dog will be compared to our sweet former pup. I can already tell she will be easy to train.

It's amazing how many people are unaware of backyard breeders. We learned our lesson and didn't even have THAT many health issues along the way.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Did you see this thread?
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
> 
> This chart is pretty good too:
> ...


Agreed.

I thought I did a lot of research into my dogs, but I was wrong. Ended up with one with health issues and another with temperament problems. Please, for your own sanity, rescue a dog or buy one from a good breeder. It's heartbreaking to see your dogs in pain because the breeder didn't pay enough attention to health issues, or to see your dog unable to interact with people properly. Holding Minnie on the bathroom floor at 2 am while she cries because her tummy hurts every few weeks is horrible. The next time I buy a dog, I'm going to be the most obnoxious, pokey, nosey buyer I can be. For my sanity, and the physical and mental health of my dogs.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh, and I want to also say, that just because they're expensive doesn't mean you have a good breeder. Minnie was very expensive ($1000+).


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I wish there was a special web site that represented quality pups from reputable breeders that was easy to navigate for folks who are looking for GSD puppys (or older dogs) to look through when searching for a puppy. 

Like it would say working, show, companion and you choose which you are looking for. Then you keep drilling down till you find breeders that fit what you are looking for. 

It's just too easy for byb to advertise their pups. If a person is looking for a pup, the byb puppies are always the first you find. Unless, you find a forum like this..or know someone who knows someone....etc.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I think adopting might be in my future for my next small breed then. I have never adopted a small breed before only large breeds and that turned out well. Lola was adopted. I have had her since she was 4 months old. I just don't want to support a BYB and by all the information I just got it seems like almost all of the ads I see are for BYBs. Adoption is looking real good to me right now.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

My husband is the same way. When I told him or next GSD would cost 1200+ he about fliped. He said that's for a traind adult right I said no a puppy from traind adults. He said we WOULD NOT pay that much for a pup that we would get anoter the out of the paper like Bella For 200$ even tho she has a crappy temperment and is proving very hard to socilaze she loves us HATES everyone else. I can't even get her to accept my parents or inlaws. And my parents live next door and she sees them a few times a week.  ill have to send $ under the table and make him think I'm paying less than I really am.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I wish there was a special web site that represented quality pups from reputable breeders that was easy to navigate for folks who are looking for GSD puppys (or older dogs) to look through when searching for a puppy.
> 
> Like it would say working, show, companion and you choose which you are looking for. Then you keep drilling down till you find breeders that fit what you are looking for.
> 
> *It's just too easy for byb to advertise their pups. If a person is looking for a pup, the byb puppies are always the first you find.* Unless, you find a forum like this..or know someone who knows someone....etc.


You are very right. When you open a newspaper it is FILLED with BYB's in the dog section. It's terrible!


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> You are very right. When you open a newspaper it is FILLED with BYB's in the dog section. It's terrible!


Yes, that is why I was so confused because those are the only types of ads I ever see. I could not distinguish them apart from reputable. Some of them have really fancy websites too. It is so hard to tell them apart. So like I said before adoption is definately looking like the way to go for me.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Yes, that is why I was so confused because those are the only types of ads I ever see. I could not distinguish them apart from reputable. Some of them have really fancy websites too. It is so hard to tell them apart. So like I said before adoption is definately looking like the way to go for me.


Adoption is always a wonderful option, you are saving a life.

But if you ever want to go through a breeder again just remember what signs to avoid.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Minnieski said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The next time I buy a dog, I'm going to be the most obnoxious, pokey, nosey buyer I can be. For my sanity, and the physical and mental health of my dogs.


That's exactly how we were!! LOL We had contact with the breeder for 2 full weeks before we felt comfortable to purchase from them. Asked them every question you can imagine. They met all of the criteria in the reputative breeder thread, every single one. Made me feel better paying the price we paid, although my friends think I'm nuts.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

LaRen616 said:


> You can ask whatever questions you like.
> 
> I would say
> 
> ...


Price isn't always a deciding factor (I hate the term BYB). There are many "breeders" that I would not buy from that sell their pups for high prices because the market allows them to. 

Breeding a female back to back is not bad. A female's uterus is meant to be pregnant. A back to back breeding when the previous litter was small or in an older female that comes out of her last litter in good shape is not a bad thing. Now if they are doing back to back to back, every heat cycle until the female is used up, yes, I would say that person is not thinking about the welfare of their female.

Why the age limit? A healthy fit female is perfectly capable of safely having a litter past the age of 7. Some females don't start having puppies until they are over 3 because they were training, trialing and titling. Some have had very few litters becauase they have been out competiting and not making puppies. A female that is bred every year from the time she is two could have had 5 litters by the time she is seven to 7.5 where as a female that is out competing may have only had 2. 

There are no absolutes.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Price isn't always a deciding factor (I hate the term BYB). There are many "breeders" that I would not buy from that sell their pups for high prices because the market allows them to.
> 
> You are correct, but the majority of BYB's are cheap.
> 
> ...


Just my opinion.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You are basing your opinions on "feelings" and not on science. Talk to any good canine reproductive specialist and they will tell you that it is healthier for the canine uterus to be pregnant. You also can not compare dogs to humans.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

ChristenHolden said:


> My husband is the same way. When I told him or next GSD would cost 1200+ he about fliped. He said that's for a traind adult right I said no a puppy from traind adults. He said we WOULD NOT pay that much for a pup that we would get anoter the out of the paper like Bella For 200$ even tho she has a crappy temperment and is proving very hard to socilaze she loves us HATES everyone else. I can't even get her to accept my parents or inlaws. And my parents live next door and she sees them a few times a week.  ill have to send $ under the table and make him think I'm paying less than I really am.


Are you planning on adding another dog soon? Instead of spending more money on another animal you could pay a behaviorist to help you work with Bella.


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## SouthernNdN (Nov 17, 2010)

I did alot of research on a great many of breeders, not just in GSD but in another breed as well.

I came across one reputable breeder who basically stated that their dogs were bred for the working man, and by working man, they meant affordable. Until I inquired about the price. $3000.00 per dog, to me isn't on a working mans budget. lol I'm sorry, but unless your making 40-50k with no kids then perhaps, otherwise, that's a fairy tale.

For me, a reputable breeder would be putting out perhaps 1 litter a yr maybe 2 tops. However when I come across a breeder that is putting out 3+ litters a year to me that's not breeding for good traits, that's breeding for a nice bank account. No matter how many titles the dogs within the breeding program have.

And I've definately had my fare share of trying to speak to a breeder and getting a nose or two turned up at me. I can only think perhaps it's because confirmation wasn't what I was looking to do, and therefore their kennel name wouldn't be seen in the spotlight like the sun is in the day.

It's a pitty that BYB will never stop due to the pricing some breeders place on their pups. And those BYB/ppl that are just looking to make a quick buck. It's almost like living back in ancient times when only royalty were allowed to own animals due to their status.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

OH LORD HAVE MURCY NO no no I'm not planing on another dog of ANY kind for at least 2 or 3 years at least. Next year our house is paid for and we will be upgradeing to something biger with more room, we have to had to the dog pen, I have to work with Bellas issues. I can not bring a hyper nosey land shark in here right now. Bella needs work first.


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2010)

Out of all the breeders i researched, within 8hrs driving time, only 3 stick in my mind that earn the term "reputable". I consider the breeder's willingness to always answers my calls and emails high on the list. I need to know I can always call them with questions. At first glance, my breeder appeared to be a BYB (some may consider her one). I found her on a classifieds ad! She did not have dogs who were OFA'd. But the sire's parents were and so were several of the ancestors on both sides. I even called the breeder's vet and spoke to them about their dogs and pups. The breeder presented the full pedigree, which I used to contact other breeders and their respective vets as well. She also didn't participate in shows or agility training etc. However she checked out, so I feel a little better about it. My dog was $650 with vet checkup, shots etc.

There are some "reputable" breeders I've dealt with that I wouldn't buy dog food from. I also think anything above $2000 for a companion is too expensive. Just my opinion


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Knight said:


> Out of all the breeders i researched, within 8hrs driving time, only 3 stick in my mind that earn the term "reputable". I consider the breeder's willingness to always answers my calls and emails high on the list. I need to know I can always call them with questions. At first glance, my breeder appeared to be a BYB (some may consider her one). I found her on a classifieds ad! She did not have dogs who were OFA'd. But the sire's parents were and so were several of the ancestors on both sides. I even called the breeder's vet and spoke to them about their dogs and pups. The breeder presented the full pedigree, which I used to contact other breeders and their respective vets as well. She also didn't participate in shows or agility training etc. However she checked out, so I feel a little better about it. My dog was $650 with vet checkup, shots etc.
> 
> There are some "reputable" breeders I've dealt with that I wouldn't buy dog food from. I also think anything above $2000 for a companion is too expensive. Just my opinion


A breeder who does not OFA her breeding stock is far from reputable in my book - sorta sad that someone who does not work their dogs and does no health testing was the most reputable of the 8 breeders you checked out. The other seven sound scary in comparison.


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> A breeder who does not OFA her breeding stock is far from reputable in my book - sorta sad that someone who does not work their dogs and does no health testing was the most reputable of the 8 breeders you checked out. The other seven sound scary in comparison.


Wake up on the wrong side of bed? :wild: Where did I say I looked at 8 breeders and where did I say she was The most reputable? She was the right choice for me, all things considered and I have no regrets. Of course you have a better chance going with OFA'd dogs, but the breeder I chose just didn't have them. Her vet never has diagnosed any of her dogs or pups with hip issues, or any other serious genetic issues.( several of her pups went to local people). The other breeder, second on my list, does not have OFA'd dogs either. Several people on this board have dogs from that breeder and all have great things to say. Only one of his pups in the last 2 years, has had hip issues. I prefer reference checks over anything else. I guess I am old school, but at least I'm not miserable like you


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

You want to talk about reputable, I was looking in the paper and there was an add for a puppy store


> Tiny paws puppies and supplies - Large selection of puppies! $50 off Any Puppy with a Regular Pricved Purchase. Take home a bundle of fur today and pick up the supplies while you are here.


Makes me so mad!


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Knight said:


> Out of all the breeders i researched, within 8hrs driving time, only 3 stick in my mind that earn the term "reputable". I consider the breeder's willingness to always answers my calls and emails high on the list. I need to know I can always call them with questions. At first glance, my breeder appeared to be a BYB (some may consider her one). I found her on a classifieds ad! She did not have dogs who were OFA'd. But the sire's parents were and so were several of the ancestors on both sides. I even called the breeder's vet and spoke to them about their dogs and pups. The breeder presented the full pedigree, which I used to contact other breeders and their respective vets as well. She also didn't participate in shows or agility training etc. However she checked out, so I feel a little better about it. My dog was $650 with vet checkup, shots etc.
> 
> There are some "reputable" breeders I've dealt with that I wouldn't buy dog food from. I also think anything above $2000 for a companion is too expensive. Just my opinion


This sounds like the breeder of my first GSD. She was BYB but I didn't know what that even meant. The dog's grandparents were OFA'd but not the parents or her. We paid $350 for her. Now, we DID have health issues, but they were not extreme. She had moderate displasia is just 1 hip and we were able to give Zubrin to help. At age 7 she needed her spleen removed (2k later) but there were no tumors, it was just 10 times it's normal size. She ultimately died of cancer at age 10.5. She did have MASSIVE anxiety and nothing worked to alleviate it, but who knows if that was our fault, not her genetics. All in all, she was an impressive dog and sweeter than you can possibly imagine!

However, with that said, this time around we did pay 1500 for a top line dog from a reputable breeder after tons and tons of research. I'm really interested to see if we end up with more or less health issues. Should be interesting. I'm sure hoping for less 

All in all, I'm sure you will have a wonderful pet, BYB or not!


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2010)

Interesting to know! Thanks Momma . I am not too worried about it any more. As others have said, they are living creatures and anything can happen. Of course going with a top breeder puts the ball in your court, but I weighed the risks an pulled the trigger. I would love to support a local breeder who loves the breed and tries to improve it. But the ones near me love the money more. I actually had a deposit down with a very well known breeder here. I put a stop payment on the check after reading reviews on her (her dogs are great however). My pup may have problems, or he may have none. I am obviously hoping for the latter, I did purchase a policy from Petplan for piece of mind. I have a health gurantee from my breeder, but in my eyes, those are worthless once you become attached to the dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Knight said:


> *Wake up on the wrong side of bed?* :wild: Where did I say I looked at 8 breeders and where did I say she was The most reputable? She was the right choice for me, all things considered and I have no regrets. Of course you have a better chance going with OFA'd dogs, but the breeder I chose just didn't have them. Her vet never has diagnosed any of her dogs or pups with hip issues, or any other serious genetic issues.( several of her pups went to local people). *The other breeder, second on my list, does not have OFA'd dogs either. Several people on this board have dogs from that breeder* and all have great things to say. Only one of his pups in the last 2 years, has had hip issues. I prefer reference checks over anything else. I guess I am old school,* but at least I'm not miserable like you*


Knight, your first sentence and last comment was uncalled for.... In fact it was rude. 
I agree with Lucia, a reputable breeder will do all health testing before breeding because they are being responsible.

Reputation can be good or bad, I'd rather the breeder be responsible than reputable. I'd like to know who the breeder is that has pups/owners on the board that isn't being responsible?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No worries Jane! The OP feels s/he mad a good choice and is offended that someone may disagree. I'm not taking it personally, and at least, I don't feel the need to resort to name calling.


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> No worries Jane! The OP feels s/he mad a good choice and is offended that someone may disagree. I'm not taking it personally, and at least, I don't feel the need to resort to name calling.




Go back and read your original response and tell me who started things off rude? Hey you can disagree all you want, no problem, but there's a way to disagree respectfully and then there's the other way!

Most people who are rude right off the bat, generally have miserable lives. Hence the comment I made. 

You all have a nice day. I'd love to stay and argue semantics, but I have to go to work.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Knight said:


> Go back and read your original response and tell me who started things off rude? Hey you can disagree all you want, no problem, but there's a way to disagree respectfully and then there's the other way!


Perhaps you need to go back and reread her response. Lucia was neither rude nor disrespectful. She did however voice an opinion that your breeder's practices aren't what most would consider responsible. I'm sorry that you took it personally and felt the need to be rude.

It's great that you and others are happy with your dogs from that breeder. The rest of us will continue to educate others on what is a responsible breeder so that the breed that we love so much will continue to improve.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ENOUGH personal posts back and forth. Please get back on topic. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa

****


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

LaRen616,
Not all breeders fall into the classification of BYB (I hate that term BTW) if they have more than 2-3 litters a year, or breed females over the age of 7.
*I agree with Lisa on this one* ...and yes...you are entitled to your own opinion.
We just bred a female that was almost 8 at the time of whelp. This is her last litter.
She had 7 beautiful, healthy, fat babies....all were over 1 1/2 [email protected] She had no problem in whelp.. She is a great mother, and has only had a total of 4 litters her entire life...and one was in Germany (where they leased her from us).
We occasionally have more than 2-3 litters a year...depends on circumstances, and individual dogs involved.
JMO....but be careful when grouping people into categories. There are many *individual* factors that need to be considered when evaluating people.
I'm not picking on you...(just the opposite!)...I like reading your posts!
I just thought that I would post my opinion....because (I don't consider myself a BYB at all)...but your *list* classified me as such.
Robin


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is difficult to sort out the definitions of reputable and BYB. I wish there were easy answers and ways to tell. I mostly have to get to know the breeder and their stock and production over time. It is not all easy to sort out for the novice setting out to get a dog.

I have had incredible luck at the animal shelter. All healthy dogs, all trainable and competing. I think I might start there and then take my dog to training, plug into the GSD community and begin to learn about the breed and get to know breeders. 

I did start this way. Learning to train and do things with my GSD while I read and began to network with people in the breed helped me learn a lot about where to go and what to look for.


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## Dejavu (Nov 11, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Many people don't think a $350 puppy is "cheap".


Please forgive my ignorance, but how much is in average a puppy from a reputable breeder?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Depending on the lines

Working lines seems to run $1200 - $3000 with the majority around $1500
Show lines seem to start at $3000


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*Some of us have puppy prices from $1500 -$1800 for nice showline pedigrees*...$3000 is plain crazy IMO!


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## Dejavu (Nov 11, 2010)

Thank you for answering my question!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

*robinhuerta*
Not all breeders fall into the classification of BYB (I hate that term BTW) if they have more than 2-3 litters a year, or breed females over the age of 7.

I never said 2-3 litters a year is a BYB? I said "How many litters do they have a year" 

*I agree with Lisa on this one* ...and yes...you are entitled to your own opinion.
We just bred a female that was almost 8 at the time of whelp. This is her last litter.
She had 7 beautiful, healthy, fat babies....all were over 1 1/2 [email protected] She had no problem in whelp.. She is a great mother, and has only had a total of 4 litters her entire life...and one was in Germany (where they leased her from us).

I know nothing of breeding, I just thought that pregnancy is harder on older women so I thought that would be the same for older dogs.

We occasionally have more than 2-3 litters a year...depends on circumstances, and individual dogs involved. 

I do not think having 2-3 litters a year makes you a BYB.

JMO....but be careful when grouping people into categories. There are many *individual* factors that need to be considered when evaluating people.
I'm not picking on you...(just the opposite!)...I like reading your posts!
I just thought that I would post my opinion....because (I don't consider myself a BYB at all)...but your *list* classified me as such.
Robin

Alot of my list was questions.



LaRen616 said:


> You can ask whatever questions you like.
> 
> I would say
> 
> ...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Hi LaRen,
It was the caption after your list of questions.....*they all say BYB to me*.
So I just wanted to express myself...that's all.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Hi LaRen,
> It was the caption after your list of questions.....*they all say BYB to me*.
> So I just wanted to express myself...that's all.


I'm sorry you felt that I was calling you a BYB, I do not think that you are.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think the list LaRen posted is good, but needs to be taken as a whole. It's not like 1 or 2 yesses makes somebody a bad breeder. Somebody can break a few of the rules and still be a great breeder. Like anything else, it's hard to say definitively, "These are the things that separate good breeders from bad ones.


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## timmster (Jan 26, 2011)

I hope this is at least a little on topic.....

but I am looking to rescue a GSD from one of my local rescues, but I am always concerned about hip issues when rescuing one. As an avid runner (I usually run 5 days a week), I am looking for a running companion as well. I'm worried that one of the dogs I adopt might come down with hip dyslpasia. Now my question is, do most GSDs in rescues have good joints and whatnot? Or is it for the most part on a dog to dog basis and varies?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Knight said:


> Out of all the breeders i researched, within 8hrs driving time, only 3 stick in my mind that earn the term "reputable". I consider the breeder's willingness to always answers my calls and emails high on the list. I need to know I can always call them with questions. At first glance, my breeder appeared to be a BYB (some may consider her one). I found her on a classifieds ad! She did not have dogs who were OFA'd. But the sire's parents were and so were several of the ancestors on both sides. I even called the breeder's vet and spoke to them about their dogs and pups. The breeder presented the full pedigree, which I used to contact other breeders and their respective vets as well. She also didn't participate in shows or agility training etc. However she checked out, so I feel a little better about it. My dog was $650 with vet checkup, shots etc.
> 
> There are some "reputable" breeders I've dealt with that I wouldn't buy dog food from. I also think anything above $2000 for a companion is too expensive. Just my opinion


Hate to say it, but your breeder is clearly not a reputable breeder.

A reputable breeder is someone working to better the breed. A breed that is plaqued with temperament and health issues because of breeders just like yours. 

If your breeder does not, at the very least, OFA their breeding dogs, what exactly are they doing to prevent one of the most significant health issues a GSD can have - HD/ED? 

You also mentioned that she doesnt participate in any kind of showing or agility, so what is she doing to prove and test the temperament of the dogs she choosing to breed? Temperament is absolutely a genetic trait.

You mentioned that she "checked out", but what exactly checked out about her? That she has cute puppies for a decent price? That she answered a few of your questions and responded to emails? Any Joe schmo with a male and female PB, a computer, and a telephone can do these things.

I'm just trying to figure out what exactly "checked out" to make you bring her up and defend your choice to buy from her in a thread about not buying from a BYB. What exactly do you consider this lady doing to better this breed?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

timmster said:


> I hope this is at least a little on topic.....
> 
> but I am looking to rescue a GSD from one of my local rescues, but I am always concerned about hip issues when rescuing one. As an avid runner (I usually run 5 days a week), I am looking for a running companion as well. I'm worried that one of the dogs I adopt might come down with hip dyslpasia. Now my question is, do most GSDs in rescues have good joints and whatnot? Or is it for the most part on a dog to dog basis and varies?


Ask for the dogs medical records. If there aren't any and it really is a big deal, try to see if you can get the dog's hips x-rayed prior to adoption. 

X-rays are really the only way to confirm HD, so I'd suggest you go about getting them done. If you're going to get the hips x-rayed, i'd also get the elbows done as well. ED can be just as serious as HD.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

The terms reputable breeder vs BYB are not mutually exclusive. I found the chart to be two ends of a wide spectrum. There are many BYB who may meet more of the stated preferred attributes and there are reputable breeders that fall short. 

BTW- you can still get puppy with health problems from a "reputable" breeder. IMO reputable has less to do with meeting the attributes on the list as it does with their history, professionalism and reputation among the GSD community.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Iletthedogout said:


> The terms reputable breeder vs BYB are not mutually exclusive. I found the chart to be two ends of a wide spectrum. There are many BYB who may meet more of the stated preferred attributes and there are reputable breeders that fall short.
> 
> BTW- you can still get puppy with health problems from a "reputable" breeder. IMO reputable has less to do with meeting the attributes on the list as it does with their history, professionalism and reputation among the GSD community.


If a breeder falls short of more than one or two of the preferred attributes on the chart, then they're not really a reputable breeder. They might be a byb or a puppymill, or simply an irresponsible breeder. And of course there are many small time hobby breeders that might actually breed their dogs in their backyard but are very responsible breeders. 

of course you can get a puppy with health or temperament problems anywhere; going with a good breeder who knows their lines is simply stacking the deck in your favor.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Figured this thread should be brought back up since there seems to be several posts from new members purchasing from bybs.


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

i want a cheap puppy, but from a top class breeder, ofa the whole nine yards! hehe. im only willing to pay $300!:crazy: 

but jokes aside, we did fall foul to 3 bybs before we bought Mia from a 'real' breeder!. the first one we paid 300, next 2 i 'rescued', do not want to go into details but was a nightmare. didnt know better, . Managed to find homes for the 2 , 1st one back to the byb, cause my vet threatened to report him!
after all the grief, money spent , even on 'free' puppies we decided to to it right this time. by now i was somewhat educated on this. yes we had to shell out thousand just for a 3month oldpuppy, but boy was it worth it! i spent more trying to'fix' some problems the other 3 had. that much money and i would have been able to get a Mia like gsd way earlier.
so yes i agree with the OP. if not going the shelter way then plz do not support bybs. only very few will be lucky. rest only grief


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

and yes yes , buying from a reputable breeder doesnt gaurantee - no health problems but from a byb gaurantees a few, sometimes a lot


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## Tin-pup (Oct 22, 2011)

Just adding my experience.

My first dog was purchased by picking up the newspaper one day and going to get her. She was my first GSD and although her tempermant was superb, she also had mega-esophagus (unbeknownst to us at the time). We had to put her to sleep at the age of 4. She was purchased as a puppy for the low price of $350. Looking back now, we were not allowed to interact with the dam or the grand-dam. We were only allowed to look at them through a cage. When I called the "breeder" to inform her of our dog's mega-e, she did not even know what it was. But she did refund us our money.

Fast forward 1 1/2 years. I began the hunt for a pup 3-4 months ago. Posted here about finding breeders, read pages and pages of threads. Learned so much more about the GSD. Had several members of this community teach me things. Learned to read a pedigree. Started contacting breeders. And finally put down a deposit on a puppy with a breeder I believe to be very reputable, but only after 2 weeks of drilling her with questions. Also got to meet both the dam and the sire, see her home and how the dogs are handled as well as meet all the pups. 

I picked her up less than 2 weeks ago. 8 week old female. Awesome lines. SMART! Into everything ...and HEALTHY. I paid over $1200 for her and was willing to do so. I'll be looking for another in about a year and will only do it this way again!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah I guess if the thread is about generalizing and statistics, then you are more likely to get a "bad" dog from a byb. But some how many hobby breeders and puppy mills do manage to produce a very good pet GSD. The biggest thing for me that separates a reputable breeder and a byb or a hobbist is that contract. The ones that stand behind their dogs and will take them back no questions asked definately have a leg up in my book.

The sad part is that there are a lot of good, reputable breeders breeding dogs that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. They have the titles in obedience or confirmation but they don't produce a GSD anywhere near what I want to see in a GSD. My club is filled with these dogs that have come from a breeder that charges more and fits the diagram much more than the breeder where I got my dog, but they just aren't the same. I know a big part of this is that my dog is east/west german working lines and those are mostly American, but they are considered reputable. There are even Grand Victrix and Victors in our club that I would never want in my dog's lines, but they sell pups, much faster than many people breeding better dogs but without the "reputation."


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

martemchik said:


> The biggest thing for me that separates a reputable breeder and a byb or a hobbist is that contract. The ones that stand behind their dogs and will take them back no questions asked definately have a leg up in my book.


If this is the case, there are no reputable breeders in Germany.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Germany and Europe in general has different breeding standards and different consumers then the United States. I would never purchase a pup from Germany so I could care less about what is included with the dog. I know that customers don't care about guarantees and warrantees there where in the United States we want a guarantee on everything we purchase.

Thank you for taking one sentence and relating it to something that wasn't even discussed in the thread.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

martemchik said:


> Germany and Europe in general has different breeding standards and different consumers then the United States. I would never purchase a pup from Germany so I could care less about what is included with the dog. I know that customers don't care about guarantees and warrantees there where in the United States we want a guarantee on everything we purchase.
> 
> 
> Thank you for taking one sentence and relating it to something that wasn't even discussed in the thread.


You're welcome. I'm glad that, using your ESP, you're able to tell that nobody who reads this thread will ever be interested in importing. I don't have that talent so I'm glad you're here to do it for me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm sorry, I inferred that someone looking to not spend a lot of money on a dog, wouldn't want to import one. Check out the title of the thread, "To Those That Want a Cheap Puppy." Sorry, but when I think cheap, I don't think import.

Its not ESP, its logic.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

martemchik said:


> I'm sorry, I inferred that someone looking to not spend a lot of money on a dog, wouldn't want to import one. Check out the title of the thread, "To Those That Want a Cheap Puppy." Sorry, but when I think cheap, I don't think import.


I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, but sometimes I read threads on this forum just for general knowledge and information, not because the title of the thread is exactly applicable to my specific situation at the time. I'm probably the only one who does that, though. :blush:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, but sometimes I read threads on this forum just for general knowledge and information, not because the title of the thread is exactly applicable to my specific situation at the time. I'm probably the only one who does that, though. :blush:


Nope, not the only one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The problem with rescuing is they often don't have purebred baby puppies. 
We only get them when something drastic or grievous happens, like the dam died in labor and the puppies got surrendered. That's how our last purebred litter came to us.
That and owner surrenders due to health issues (of the puppy usually). That's why Caliber is here. 

I'll always rescue and I'll be honest, not only are purebred - _well bred _ dogs expensive to purchase, there's a ton of great rescue dogs out there, many purebreds as well as mixes. 

To anyone on a budget I'd always say rescue/adopt first but not just because you want a "cheap dog" or puppy. As a rescuer, I like to know that people's budget will allow for yearly visits to the vet as well as incidentals that may arise with their pet's health.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, but sometimes I read threads on this forum just for general knowledge and information, not because the title of the thread is exactly applicable to my specific situation at the time. I'm probably the only one who does that, though. :blush:


Now I'm embarrassed to admit that I clicked on this thread and was reading it, even though it is not applicable to me either:blush:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I read threads because I'm bored (usually) and also because I may be able to toss out some gems of wisdom from time to time :rofl:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Martenmchick, I apologize if I made it sound like I was calling you out or questioning your opinion. I certainly didn't mean it that way. My dry, sideways sense of humor gets me in trouble again. . . .

I was just trying to point out that just because a breeder has a good-sounding contract doesn't make them ethical, and just because a breeder doesn't have a contract doesn't make them unethical.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

And you're right, it doesn't, but that's a big sign for me personally. I would turn and walk away before any information if they didn't have a contract, just because it seems like it is "industry standard" at this point. Like I stated, there are breeders in my club with amazing contracts and dogs that have been grand champions, but that doesn't mean they are ethical in any way.

The best way to state it would be, if I had a check list, a contract would be #1, and if there is no check next to it I wouldn't bother going to #2. Could that keep me from a great breeder? Possibly, but I'm sure I can find one just as good if not better that provides a contract.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

I guess cheap is in the eye of the beholder. We have bought and imported three German Shepherds from Germany for the typical German price of approximately $1000, from a good, but small breeder. I should also point out my husband is German and so we go there anyway. For that $1000 (including shipping home), we can buy a very nice puppy or young dog that in the US would cost at least double. No, the Germans don't give guarantees on living creatures, but I understand that. They think there are too many variables that can affect the dog, they don't do it. Plus, once the papers are signed over, the dog is mine, clear and free, no limited registration. I know there are bad breeders in every country, but there are plenty of good small breeders around, and those are the ones I support, not big kennels. 

My "cheap" rescue dog was the most expensive dog I ever had. The few months I had him, he cost well over $2000, and he died anyway. After that, my husband refuses to rescue again.


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## Ninamarie (Feb 14, 2010)

we got chewy froma family here in our city and not a BYB or a lic. Breeder. He was 360.00. but has no papers butis a White GSD!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> Cheap puppy = BYB (usually)
> 
> If you want a cheap BYB dog, go to the shelter and save one.
> 
> ...


I find nowadays nothing proliferates backyard breeders faster than rescues. It is obvious that good breeders can be cost prohibitive, but one should not be blind to how rescues contribute to the demand for BYB breeders. The bar that some rescues set can be nearly insurmountable and incredibly invasive.

I tried rescues before buying from a breeder before I bought my older dog. Some of the reasons I was turned down:

-there was another dog in the household, they wanted their dogs to be the only dog in the house so that they could "get all the love and attention they deserve", and felt that owning more than one was not in their dog's better interest. (I always found that most people that truly love dogs and spend a lot of time and money on them generally own more than one.

-another family member owned an elderly unneutered male dog. I cannot control what somebody else chooses to do with their pet and neutering a dog at that age would certainly not be in his better interest.

-I worked full time. Really? Excuse me for not hitting the lottery, but I am a responsible person that works for a living and can afford a dog and his needs.
　
-I didn't have a fenced in yard. At that time, I lived on a quiet cul-de-sac and planned on taking the dog out with me as I did with the dog I eventually purchased. Just because you have a fenced yard does not mean that a dog won't dig under it, jump over it or an irresponsible person would not leave the gate open. Forgive me for being dedicated like the mailman...neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night ....I go out with my dog. Just thought I mention that now I have a fenced in yard and I still go out with my dog!

Oh, and I did try shelters, 95% of the dogs in shelters around here are pits, definitely not the dog for me. When a PB GSD is brought in to a shelter, rescues swoop down on these dogs then hold them for hostage or worse. I have seen where adoptable dogs can languish in rescues for years, literally. 

There was one particular GSD brought to a local shelter, he was put on pet finder. When I contacted the shelter, I was informed that they had received numerous responses for this dog, but a rescue had quickly snatched him up. The shelter went on to mention that this particular dog was turned in because neighborhood male teens had been antagonizing this dog and the owner's did not want to keep the dog inside when they worked but did not want the dog to be abused either. What did this rescue do? Why after they almost tripped over their own feet to get to this dog before anybody else had a chance at adopting him, they took this poor dog and put him in a foster home (well knowing his background) that had a teenage boy!!! Guess what happened? Yep, the dog bit the boy and the rescue destroyed the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lilie said:


> I wish there was a special web site that represented quality pups from reputable breeders that was easy to navigate for folks who are looking for GSD puppys (or older dogs) to look through when searching for a puppy.


You go to shows, agility trials, Schutzhund clubs, GSD meetups, volunteer to hide for the local SAR team. Then you meet people you like and you see dogs you like. Find out who those people are, what they breed if they breed or who they recommend. Find out who those dogs are, are there common patterns in their pedigrees, if so who is breeding those types of dogs...

I don't think one-stop shopping for a dog is realistic.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The trouble with a lot of these threads is that the information is like preaching to the choir.

Most average people looking for a pet don't care if it's "pure bred" and don't know what that entails. Most really don't care what breed it is.

They are people looking for a pet and will get one wherever they find it. Maybe the neighbor has a litter and the pups are cute and the price is reasonable.

This is a GSD forum. So the views expressed here are not the views of the general pet owning population.

The general public will continue to buy puppies from anywhere and everywhere. It's not against the law to breed dogs, althogh some places you do need a liscense. So the dog population problem will continue.
BYB's, whatever they are, will continue to thrive.

It is often stated that breeders should breed for the betterment of the breed, since this is one of the things that make them reputable.

How many breeders would say they don't really care about the breed. Maybe a lot of them don't but they will not say that.

On the contracts thing. It doesn't mean anything to me. Most of the time when a person realizes there is a problem with their dog they are already in love with the animal. Most contracts allow for a replacement pup. Some want the original dog back and some don't. Not a good situation either way for the owner.

Anyway there is a larger population of people who want dogs for pets than for expensive dogs of any kind. Accordingly they don"t want to pay very much.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jack's Dad is right, pet dogs are a purchase of convenience. Its the reason that puppy stores stay in business somehow. Its the reason that most of the dogs I see at the park are mixed-breeds. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with owning one, but the "All-American Dog" is the most popular dog breed in the United States by a long shot. If someone wants a GSD, they do some research, read how amazing the breed is on Wikipedia, and find the closest "breeder" to them. Many could care less about AKC paperwork as they will never show their dogs so they talk to a good breeder who wants $1500 and then find some puppies in the paper for $200. To them there is no difference.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Jack's Dad is right, pet dogs are a purchase of convenience. Its the reason that puppy stores stay in business somehow. Its the reason that most of the dogs I see at the park are mixed-breeds. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with owning one, but the "All-American Dog" is the most popular dog breed in the United States by a long shot. If someone wants a GSD, they do some research, read how amazing the breed is on Wikipedia, and find the closest "breeder" to them. Many could care less about AKC paperwork as they will never show their dogs so they talk to a good breeder who wants $1500 and then find some puppies in the paper for $200. To them there is no difference.



Yep.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

cool! based on the chart I actually got Cody from a reputuable breeder  I sort of thought the breeder was a bit in the "grey" area, but they meet at least 9 of the 10 criteria


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'll go against the grain a bit here. I have a web site for my dogs (none of whom I breed and never have). A lot of the content is "hidden" (stuff I need online for myself, stuff I share with friends/training buddies, etc) but there is a "front" of pages about my dogs. I get frequent e-mails from people who live in my state and are researching GSDs and breeders and would like recommendations. I do think that a lot of the time, people really do want to become educated and make the right decision. They might need to adjust their expectations as far as time line, cost, etc but based on the number of people that reach out to me as a complete stranger it gives me hope.

We tell these people they have to meet their breeder, ask a certain list of questions, touch the dogs, see the health records.... but in some places there's not a half-decent breeder within a day's drive so then what? We tell these people they just have to trust the breeder, location should not matter and they should have the puppy shipped, bla bla bla....so which is it?

Honestly I think what this breed needs more than constant harping on the BYB vs. reputable breeders issue is some young blood investing themselves in this breed and its future. We need more GOOD breeders! Just think if everyone took the time spent in this thread and instead used that time to be with their dog, train it a new trick, take a look at its pedigree....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Please *DON'T* excuse my ignorance here but, What does a dogs parents being obedience champions or anything like that have to do with a puppy? Doesn't it all depend on how much work I put into my dog? My Dad is a rocket scientist but I can barely spell as you can see. So I am just a little confused. As for health issues doesn't a lot of that have to do with how you care for your dog? I am just trying to learn as well. My current pup is my first not from the pound. She has already proven to be the best dog I have ever had in the sence of eas of training and wanting to learn.


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## amaris (Jan 6, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> I find nowadays nothing proliferates backyard breeders faster than rescues. It is obvious that good breeders can be cost prohibitive, but one should not be blind to how rescues contribute to the demand for BYB breeders. The bar that some rescues set can be nearly insurmountable and incredibly invasive.
> 
> I tried rescues before buying from a breeder before I bought my older dog. Some of the reasons I was turned down:
> 
> ...


tell me about it, we were turned down from 1 rescue because wanting a dog that was good with children (we have frequent young visitors), good with other dogs (street has 5 dogs) and workable with cats, because our neighbours' have gotten out before...was too demanding and made us a hard placement.

other times, we needed GSD experience, didn't matter from where.

and the last one, the dog was a fit for us and we adored his description and the way he looked...but they wanted a house with another dog at least...

so now, after spending the last 6 mths working with rescues and being home-approved etc etc only to get turned down RIIIIGHT before they let us adopt, i'm going back to breeders...and if it weren't for my dad be willing to spend on a well-bred, WGSL dog (he loves them), i'm sure my mum would have okayed a BYB dog...slowly educating my parents....slowly but surely


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

mycobraracr said:


> Doesn't it all depend on how much work I put into my dog? My Dad is a rocket scientist but I can barely spell as you can see. So I am just a little confused. As for health issues doesn't a lot of that have to do with how you care for your dog?


In a word, no. 

Many elements of temperament and health are genetic and have very little to do with raising. Nerve strength, for example, is largely genetic. Whether you have a nervous fearful dog or a strong confident dog has much more to do with genetics than with raising, I have one nervous, fearful dog and one bold, confident dog. Both were bought as puppies and raised in the same household.

With health, there are many health problems such as degenerative myelopathy, bloat, hip dysplasia, elbow displasia, and heart defects which are either totally genetic or have genetic components.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

amaris said:


> tell me about it, we were turned down from 1 rescue because wanting a dog that was good with children (we have frequent young visitors), good with other dogs (street has 5 dogs) and workable with cats, because our neighbours' have gotten out before...was too demanding and made us a hard placement.
> 
> I would think that this is what most people expect from their dogs!
> 
> ...


I am sorry that you spent so much time working with the rescues only to be turned down. That does not even seem right. It does not take six months to determine whether you are suitable or not.

I find it interesting that you seem to be having bad experiences form rescues as I had, but for totally opposite reasons. When I looked into a rescue, it was about ten years ago, and I have subsequently read repeatedly that rescues have a very high failure rate. I wonder if things have changed since my experience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mycobraracr said:


> Please *DON'T* excuse my ignorance here but, What does a dogs parents being obedience champions or anything like that have to do with a puppy? Doesn't it all depend on how much work I put into my dog? My Dad is a rocket scientist but I can barely spell as you can see. So I am just a little confused. As for health issues doesn't a lot of that have to do with how you care for your dog? I am just trying to learn as well. My current pup is my first not from the pound. She has already proven to be the best dog I have ever had in the sence of eas of training and wanting to learn.


I think that having the breeding dogs achieve some sort of title does make a difference to the buyer, or it should. Well, it tells me something about the dogs, not much but something. It tells me that they were stable enough to go to three separate shows, and perform what they were trained to perform in a ring in the presence of strangers and other dogs. A dog that was seriously human or dog aggressive would be difficult to manage this. And it tells me that the breeder works with their dogs, and cares enough about them to train them or at least have them trained and titled up to a certain level. If they train them themselves, that gives them an excellent understanding of the dog's character, how they learn, etc.

I think it is more important that the bitch be of good temperament than the dog, as she imprints the puppies as well as passes on her genetics. 

I do not think titles or lack of titles should be the reason for buying or not buying a pup, but you look at the whole picture: pedigree, conformation, temperament, training, titles, health, instinct, breeder-experience, stud dog choice, and so forth. If you want just a pet, that pet needs good temperament, and needs to be trainable, just as much as someone who wants to raise an obedience dog or a schutzhund dog. 

You still need to do your part, socializing, training, leadership, etc. But the difference is taking a pup with that should be able to succeed, and working with it, and getting an excellent pet; or taking a pup that is a complete questionmark, maybe in its genetics no matter how much you try and work with it, it will still be extremely shy, or very dog-aggressive.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

But I like the fact that they come to me with no shots and no deworming done yet. As well as no papers to say when they were born. For all I know, I could be a mixed breed but I definitely believe the ad when they say pure breed German Shepherd Dog!

On a serious note, I've learned so much on this forum about GSD's as well as dogs in general. I'm not in the market for another GSD yet but will be in the next year or so. Whichever opportunity (adopt or breeder) comes first, I'm taking it.


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## Kaz (Nov 21, 2011)

I wish shelters were more responsive in LA. I had called and left voice mails and emails to over 4 shelters about potential pups, prior to purchasing Manfred for a king's ransom. I wasnt concerned about saving money, but I wanted to rescue a poor little pup.

NOT ONE shelter replied back. 

I was so angry, I left them dirty voice mails like "Shame on you for not helping to make a baby puppy's life more happy!". Finally after that, (and 2 or more weeks after I purchased Manfred), middle aged ladies with outraged voices called me to "get back" at me. 

As far as I am concerned, I am not a "breed" fanatic or a training fanatic. 

Manfred has one job, to be a cuddly soft toy. It doesnt matter if he is big or small or brown or black. 

Yes he does have excellent certified lineage, and hips guaranteed for 2 years, but even if he does get dysplasia, what am I gonna do? Return him for a new pup?

Manfred is family.

When I had a rabbit, and he broke his front teeth and was unable to eat by himself. The vet recommended I put him down. We refused. We fed the rabbit mashed foods for a period of 6 months, before it finally died of natural causes. Pets are family!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

When you really get into training and being around the breed you understand what a well bred shepherd is and what an ok shepherd is. You start really seeing the differences in the lines as soon as you work around different lines. No amount of reading on the forum will truly get you to understand the difference between your dog, and another dog.

As an example, the word drive gets thrown around a lot on the forum, well what can you compare it to? This is my first shepherd, I knew he was working lines, but I couldn't compare him to a different line because I was never around shepherds or even dogs so what amound of drive he had I had no idea. Then I joined a GSD club, full of American lines with a few German show and working lines sprinkled in. Boy did I see the difference between my dog and theirs. And they were bred by good breeders, just different lines.

In a breed as varied as the German Shephed Dog there are many outstanding examples of individual dogs and just as many bad ones. Its kind of sad seeing people that buy a GSD because of the movies and the stories and whatever else comes along with owning the dog, but then quickly realize its not what they expected. Its a nervous, shy, fearful dog. I used to think the same way as you Myco (and I've only had my dog for 15 months), but then you see all these people that have had decades of experience, struggle with dogs that are genetically inept. Those were the people that finally showed me the true worth of a good breeder and the importance of a good lineage.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks, I have a lot to learn! I am very pleased with my puppy. For now that is all I can ask for and do the best I can to be the best owner I can. She has already exceeded my expectations but maybe I didn't have the bar set very high. That is all changing with the research I do. Thanks again for everyones patience with me.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I had to adjust my expectations for the price I was going to pay for a puppy. I was planning on paying $500 to $1000 but the breeders I spoke to in that price range were not too impressive (I'm in Michigan). One I spoke with basically said all of her dogs/puppies have the same temperment and just focused on what I would like the dog to look like.

The breeder I am hoping to buy from charges up to $2500 but she has an excellent reputation and when I spoke to her she asked many questions about what I'm looking for in a dog. She told me which of her upcoming litters she thought would be a good match for my family, and went into details about the personality of her dog. 

My current dog is a lab that is from a puppy mill (didn't research enough when I got him). He was on sale for $400, reduced from $600 if I bought him that weekend. We have spend probably close to $15,000 over the past 9 years just to keep him going, and we are still shelling out the money. He has a heart of gold, so he's well worth it to us. We always chuckle about what a bargain he has been.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

LaneyB said:


> My current dog is a lab that is from a puppy mill (didn't research enough when I got him). He was on sale for $400, reduced from $600 if I bought him that weekend. We have spend probably close to $15,000 over the past 9 years just to keep him going, and we are still shelling out the money. He has a heart of gold, so he's well worth it to us. We always chuckle about what a bargain he has been.


I've almost always had rescues, with some of them being purebred dogs, and I have spent a LOT of money that I probably wouldn't have if I'd paid up front for a well-bred dog. (Same with the cats - those "free" ones wind up being super spendy sometimes!) Of course I think they are worth it, but man, I'm kinda happy to have a dog that doesn't need a bunch of (medical) work to start off with.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

My list to diferenciate BYB from responsible breeders is not that long.

1) responsible breeders have knowlege of the breed and of how genetic works.

That being said, I'd choose a BYB any time over a breeder who does it for the wrong reasons.


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## EricIndy (Feb 23, 2012)

I feel horrible about supporting a BYB. I did so much research and still didn't know the difference. But one negative made me realize my mistake. The breeder said I could bring the dog back at any time, for any reason. I got to meet the sire & dam and they were both beautiful, healthy dogs. But he let me take the puppy home too soon, which really upset me. So far I haven't had any problems, but it still doesn't excuse the fact.

I don't know how to look up the pedigree. I have the AKC registration numbers and names for the sire & dam. Can I look it up with that?

There's no way I'd return my puppy. He's already a part of the family and that's a bond you can't break. Even if it's only lasted a few days!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> I am sorry that you spent so much time working with the rescues only to be turned down. That does not even seem right. It does not take six months to determine whether you are suitable or not.
> 
> I find it interesting that you seem to be having bad experiences form rescues as I had, but for totally opposite reasons. When I looked into a rescue, it was about ten years ago, and I have subsequently read repeatedly that rescues have a very high failure rate. I wonder if things have changed since my experience.


I've had real good experiences with rescue organizations and some not so good. Just like with a breeder you have to shop around. 

Re: breeders I think my breeder might be classified as a BYB from some of what I've read on here. My dogs were UKC registered not AKC. She didn't title her dogs, she used them for SAR. I've got to say they were the most awesome dogs on the planet. Great hips, my vet loves them for their temperment and said they are some of the best shepherds she has ever met. My breeder has been a friend to me, answered tons of questions and has kept in touch for 9+ years. I don't know how many "real" kennels would have done that.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I am more concerned about telling breeders from puppy mills. When I go to a site that has 5 male and 17 females with multiple litters an the ground that concerns me. Yes it could be a reputalbe breeder with a large kennel and that is fine but you can't always tell from a web page. Too many dogs makes me think puppy mill and I would rather go to a BYB than that.


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## EricIndy (Feb 23, 2012)

SiegersMom said:


> I am more concerned about telling breeders from puppy mills. When I go to a site that has 5 male and 17 females with multiple litters an the ground that concerns me. Yes it could be a reputalbe breeder with a large kennel and that is fine but you can't always tell from a web page. Too many dogs makes me think puppy mill and I would rather go to a BYB than that.



That was what I was trying to avoid! Overall the breeder I went to was a great experience. He sent the pup home early, which I disagree with. But there was only two adult GSD's. A male, and female. Definitely not a puppy mill. My uncle runs the biggest pet store in the state and I didn't buy the puppy from him for a reason. The dam only had one litter last year and a litter this year. I felt like the dogs were cared for and he genuinely loved his animals. I'll probably buy from him again if there are no issues at the two year mark.

It's hard to tell the difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB. I didn't know anyone with a GSD before I got mine. My only real experience (and the reason I fell in love with the breed) was because my father was a K9 police officer and we had a GSD growing up.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I searched and searched for my dog...I oversearched and suffered information overload! I got confused looking at breeders and became concerned from visiting with some that the working line dog I envisioned would be way too high drive for us. I had kids and friends kids coming over and I did not want a dog with such drive I could not control it. I kept hearing about dogs being too drivey. THis was our 1st GSD...first real puppy since I was a kid. All my dogs since I got married and started a family have been adult rescues. I did end up buying from a BYB. Would I buy from them again...no. Not because I do not lover our dog. He is great...personality, health all is good. The Sire and Dam were great with my kids on our visits and I decided that the personality would work with our family. With that said...I now feel prepared for what it takes to raise a GSD and I feel more confident spending that extra money. When the time is right I will find more what I envisioned originally...hopefully without having to go out of state. In the mean time our current GSD is a beautifull well mannered and healthy dog (I did take him to a trainer weekly for the first year and will go back with my next dog).


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## GSDisBest (Jan 29, 2012)

A good example of a BYB to is a breeder who can't spell shepherd right.. and think bc you can register the pups Akc there perfect. Even if the sire and dame aren't registered.


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