# Schutzhund Dogs, in or out?



## bmass01 (Apr 7, 2005)

So here is my question, with so many SchH dogs here, how many live in the house with you and how many feel a firm belief that a working dog should live outside or at least in a Kennel?


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I voted for in the house but in nice weather I do throw them out in the kennel for quite awhile. It seems to build up their anticipation to get out and do something and they are eager to get to work. When it's nice out, I hate to leave them cooped up for too long and I can padlock the kennels and leave them out.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

You also need to define "in the house". Are they all loose in the house, some crated (and for how long) or rotated day to day and what about the night.

Thanks


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I would bet a number of us will put them in kennels while we are at work and let them out when we get home, work/play with them for awhile and bring them in at night


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:*SchH dogs*


(ETA: I'm not singling out the OP. I have heard this many times from many sources.)


I have a BIG problem with this. Why single out Schutzhund dogs? Why not say Agility dogs or Rally dog or Herding dogs?

Why do people think that SchH dogs need to be treated any different?

Unless of course they are only interested in the top scores. Limit the dogs time with it's humans so it's more driven to work??

IMHO it all comes down to this - what happens if your dog totally TANKS at Schutzhund? Or any other sport for that matter. What then?

My dogs are always, first and foremost, family pets. They learn to live in the house together in harmony (if at all possible) and be good members of society.

Competition, high scores and fame all come second (if at all).

I knew and (used to) respect a lady in the agility group I belonged to. Her dogs were AWESOME! The first thing that made me question the respect I was giving her was when she went out and bought a Border Jack puppy. Border Collie/Jack Russel mix - bred SPECIFICALLY for agility. Fast but short (so you get the low jump heights).

She and I were in the same beginner class. Me with Tazer and her with her new puppy. She kept going on and on about how THIS dog was going to be the next National Champion. Week Three of class found her starting to worry about the dogs height. He was growing too tall. He had to stay under a certain height in order to get the lower jump height. Week Five and she was training the puppy to slouch when it felt the measuring stick on it's back.

Last time she came to class was Week Six. After that I found out from another member of the group that she had "gotten rid of" the puppy because he went over height.


I don't buy a dog with the sole purpose of competing. If I want to compete I'll buy something non-living - like a race car. I am buying a companion, someone to spend 13+ years of my life with.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ALL my dogs are primarily in, regardless of what they do. I don't have kennels or even a fenced yard so it's not an option (and hasn't been an issue).


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I have to agree with Lauri on this, I do not have my SchH dog yet, but all my dogs are family members first. I am *crossing fingers* getting a new pup to begin SchH with very soon, hopefully in May. The new pup will still be a companion and family member. I do believe in crate training, all my girls have used a crate, Dutch still does but Shadow doesn't need one anymore. New pup will have her own crate as well. Lauri that is a shame what that lady did with that pup....poor pupper.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'm in it for the total dog. When I get a dog that I can work with in schutzhund, it'll be a house dog and yes it will have a kennel outside but it won't live there. Renji also lives inside. I don't believe in owning a dog that lives outside and is only taken out to work.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

tyson is not a schH dog but PSA is close. he stays in the house but does not roam the house when we are gone, he is crated. now this new dog that im handleing stays in the trainer's kennels outside. but they also have a lot of working dogs so an abundance of them in the house together would not be a good idea.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We have 6 dogs. 2 now retired SchH dogs, a 10yo male and 12yo female, 1 house pet 9yo female who washed out of SchH very young and 3 younger dogs, 1 male and 2 females, still actively training in SchH.

All live in the house. But not all are loose in the house at the same time.. unfortunately if we just turned all 6 loose we'd have WWIII. We have certain combinations of dogs who get along together, and other combinations that don't. So they rotate. 2-3 dogs in the house, the others crated or, weather permitting, outside in a fenced enclosure. Everyone gets time every day playing with us, training, and playing with other dogs. Fortunately our work schedules allow for additional mid-day play time and rotation to break it up.

A typical day goes sort of like this.
Morning, everyone goes outside in pairs to potty and play a bit. Breakfast.
2 are left loose to roam the house when we're at work, the others crated.
Late morning, Tim gets home and has a few hours before he goes back to work so everyone goes outside again in pairs for potty breaks and longer play sessions and often some play/training with him too.
Early afternoon, he leaves for work again, and 2 are left free to roam the house while we're gone. Usually a different 2 than got the morning house shift.
Early evening when we're both home from work, everyone goes outside again in pairs for potty and doggy play. Everyone gets some one-on-one play and/or training with us.
Dinner.
2 or 3 are loose in the house with us in the evening while others are crated or playing together outside.
Night, everyone goes outside again for potty and doggy play. 2 stay out to roam the house overnight while others are crated.

Next day, same schedule but with different dogs getting the loose in the house priviledges at different times.

Weekends are pretty much devoted to dogs, with Sat being SchH club and Sun being the play day. So they all get lots of play and training and hang-out-with-us time on the weekends.

In many ways I would prefer to have outdoor kennels for whichever dogs aren't on the roam-the-house-rotation during the day when we are at work. But even though we're out in the country without any real neighbors, I worry about it from a safety/security standpoint.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I cannot vote because I truly think it depends on the dog, and the house. If you have a spouse constantly screaming and yelling and ill behaved monster kids, let the dog spend the majority of it's time in the kennel so he isn't constantly being screamed at and hiding under the coffee table!

Ok, the above senario is extreme, but we all know a schutzhund dog needs to have a high sense of self, confidence, free and open temperament. If the life in the house is stressful, for whatever reason, then most of the time in the kennel is not a bad thing. 

I am not an advocate of full time kennel dogs, as I believe all dogs should get quality time with their owners off the training field as well...a chance to go on errands, walks, hikes, swims. I don't think it is about where the dog spends the majority of it's time, it is about a quality of life.

If the owner works 8 hours a day, I would rather see ANY dog in the kennel, getting fresh air, room to run and play, than locked in a crate in the house.

Hawk, 12X SchH3 has always spent 80% of his time in the house with me. I now have Carlo, 9 months old, he does spend most of his time in the kennel , because Hawk is in the house, as a retired boy should be. I do give Carlo hang out time with me, but not nearly as much as Hawk gets. Hawk won't be aroud forever, so then Carlo will then move into the "king position". 

That said, my dogs LOVE their kennels...they can bark, jump, mark the dog house if they want, no human rules exist, they always have safe toys, nearby birdfeeders for entertainment...if I ever said "crate or kennel" they would zoom to the kennel with delight. Even Hawk would get sooooo excited heading out to the kennel I had to throw him a toy for his mouth to keep him from exploding with excitement via a bite!!!

All dogs here do come in the house, all sleep inside at night. All are well behaved in the house. And nobody is limited to kennel/crate/training. All have a quality life outside of that...

On a final note, the more time your dog spends outside, the better coat he will have. Years ago I had a old retired dog, who suffered for years with horrid allergies. One day, after trying every product under the sun to try and give him relief, I decided to try "more fresh air". Within a few weeks, he was like a brand new dog. Full time house dogs always have the worst coat.


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

I think it also depends on the dog. Our last GSD was in the house 100% of the time and I ony used a crate for travel. Radar is only in the house when we are able to supervise him well. He is young and still into everything. This is the type of dog that even when we think we are supervising him things happen.... in December he ate my duaghter's gingerbread house. We discovered last month that he can get his cuz off the top of the fridge! He is smart and fast! As a young pup we would crate him in the house when we needed to but he started a bad habit of rubbing his nose on the bars. We tried crates with two different size bars and he still had a sore nose so we started using the outside pen. He is inside when we are home and can watch him and he is outside when we are not home and can't watch him. I think the same traits that make him good in schH are the same traits that make the outside kennel a good fit for him. It's not like we don't love him as much as our last gsd or treat him differently because we do schH with him..... it's his drive and the fact that his safety comes first! We also give him a ton more physical and mental exercise than we gave our last gsd. I am not offended when people want to point out that schH dogs get treated differently because I think it's important for prospective owners to know what they are getting into!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I have a BIG problem with this. Why single out Schutzhund dogs? Why not say Agility dogs or Rally dog or Herding dogs?


Actually drive building through deprivation is not regulated to just the SchH world. It is, unfortunately, found in other canine sports.

My dogs are house dogs. Since I have two females that hate each other I split the time. Nike is always loose. Alexis and Vala each get 1/2 day and every other night. I use crates in the house. Nike and Alexis often also spend part of the day outside in the dog yard. Vala is my competition dog so she gets more one on one time with me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lhczth
> 
> 
> > Quote:I have a BIG problem with this. Why single out Schutzhund dogs? Why not say Agility dogs or Rally dog or Herding dogs?
> ...


I know someone who does a lot of sports but at an agility trial she asked me to hold her dog and not pet her for a few minutes before they ran. She said if she "abandoned" her dog and came back, the dog was really pumped up to run and work WITH her (the dog is a non-traditional breed as far as agility).

So, not as extreme as kenneling for long periods, but I guess it works. I often work Kenya right after I get home from work. She's really excited to see me and has a lot of energy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That isn't what we are talking about. Most of us crate our dogs at training or trials. What we are talking about are dogs that spend most of their lives sitting in a kennel or crate only seeing their handlers for brief periods to work.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't have "a kennel" - a couple of runs so dogs can be rotated outside to relax in the sun, their wading pools or play rough with their big balls or critter watch! 

I split up the females. My male is fine with any of them, so he is pretty much my full time house dog. Dogs are crated or kenneled when I am not home as there is too much outside neighborhood activity and I don't want to see one go out a window at some irresponsible owner's dog peeing in their yard (min pin is ALWAYS loose!). But they all get hang out time every day, and my boy and Basha always sleep loose overnight. Csabre will go in an open crate and go to sleep on her own if she is in the living room after 10! 

I think Basha and her kids actually work for me (& owners) better if they get alot of house time. This family has a ton of drive. BUT I have seen dogs who are medium/lower drive whose owners use attention deprivation to get better work - in my mind, if I have to deprive the dog of a normal life to get him to work, he should not be working or at least not working for someone so competitive that they will do this to eek out every point.

Lee


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## bmass01 (Apr 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThat isn't what we are talking about. Most of us crate our dogs at training or trials. What we are talking about are dogs that spend most of their lives sitting in a kennel or crate only seeing their handlers for brief periods to work.


Exactly! Sorry if I was a little vague in the beginning, thought popped in my head just before work. Reason I am asking, I just went to my local SchH club on Saturday for the first time and this is the line of thought for them. My dogs are not now nor ever will be outside (or kennelled) dogs but as puppies they are crated when I am gone and leashed to me when I am home. And I was wondering if being an outside (or kennelled) as opposed to inside really made a big difference in SchH as I am new to the whole thing. If I pursue this I want to be able to succeed and if having to kennel my puppy full time is the only way to do that, then it is a waste of my time. 

Sorry if I got anyone in an uproar.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Basha was a kennel dog in Belgium, came here, moved into the house. I have trained her and done anohter Schh3 on her. Her bond is much better with me I think as she is in the house. I have heard from others with Ufo progeny that they are much nicer dogs (easier and more responsive) to train after being house dogs! All my schutzhund dogs are house dogs who only have crate/kennel time so that everyone gets house time or to keep the house intact while I am at work.

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: bmass01
> Exactly! Sorry if I was a little vague in the beginning, thought popped in my head just before work. Reason I am asking, I just went to my local SchH club on Saturday for the first time and this is the line of thought for them. My dogs are not now nor ever will be outside (or kennelled) dogs but as puppies they are crated when I am gone and leashed to me when I am home. And I was wondering if being an outside (or kennelled) as opposed to inside really made a big difference in SchH as I am new to the whole thing. If I pursue this I want to be able to succeed and if having to kennel my puppy full time is the only way to do that, then it is a waste of my time.


I don't think it's the only way, you should be able to raise your puppy as you see fit.

I don't have anything inherently wrong with having kennels and using them within reason. If I could, I would have part of a garage sectioned into a kennel, with a dog door that goes out to a full enclosed (meaning the top is also wired), locked kennel. Or maybe no kennel in the garage but a dog door to a kennel outdoors. I don't mind my dogs free indoors but it would be nice that they could let themselves out and get some fresh air while I work.

However it seems that if a SchH dog has to be kenneled anytime it's not working just to eek out the drive and willingness to work, I would wonder if that dog is suitable for SchH. I feel the same about people I have met who do absolutely NO obedience, manners, or anything with their SchH dogs. Dogs allowed to jump all over people, mouth on them, run around the house like crazy. Honestly if I had to put up with that to do SchH and worry that teaching just some basic manners and rules would "ruin" my dog and damage his psyche I'd probably not want to do SchH with that dog. For me, I want balanced dogs first and foremost. I will try lots of sports and activities with my dogs to bring out the best in them, but they must also be able to settle in the house and be my companion, learn the basic rules and manners. I guess I could see having to constantly crate or kennel a dog that is SO over the top it cannot settle in the house (as opposed to doing to bring out MORE drive), but I can't ever see myself having that sort of dog as my companion.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

If a dog must be crated/kenneled (talking as a lifestyle, not just at training) to create drive and desire to work via deprivation OR must be crated/kenneled because it is incapable of being a house dog and companion, it does not have correct temperament. Period. Doesn't matter how successful it is on the SchH field.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A lot of people leave working dogs in kennels when not working. A police officer who spends eight to ten hours a day with their dog, might kennel their dog at home, leaving him outside to sleep for a number of reasons. The dog is getting more than a normal amount of person-quality-time. Other police dogs stay in the house and roll around with the officer's children. This is not making a judgement here. 

If you have a number of dogs, because you are a breeder or competitor, leaving dogs kenneled may not be to improve drive, it may be so that the dog is relatively comfortable while you are working with your other dogs or not able to be home to supervise. 

While I am not a schutzhund competitor, I compete in Rally and Obedience, and have trained in Agility. I do not think my dogs work well for me because I deprive them of 100% house time, I think that they do better than some dogs as they are rested, relaxed, but not exploding with energy as some dogs who undergo much of their lives crated are.


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

Radar is my first high drive dog so i don't really know... are there really dogs that are incapable of being a house dog or just owners that do not take the time to exercise and teach them to calm down? Radar is a different dog in the house at almost 12 months than he was at 6 months. The biggest difference is that he has learned to be more gentle and to have more self control. This came from- play too rough in the house and you will get put in a crate or kennel-- play nice and you get more family time. Now he is out most of the time we are home. What about Mals? I have aways wondered if they are mostly house or kennel dogs. (I know people on here share stories about their mals and that they are good companions but I wonder if that is the norm.)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum actually work for me (& owners) better if they get alot of house time.


Same here. My experience has always been that the more house and family time, and time just doing regular companion things like hanging out, doing chores, running errands, taking walks, makes for a better bond, stronger relationship and better understanding and communication between dog and handler. Which in turn pays off with better work on the field.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We do not crate our dogs during the day or evening. Puppies are crate trained; that is pretty much the time that they might be in a crate for more than 1 or 2 hours (overnight) other than traveling to club/training. Puppies and other dogs do get to come in the house, 

I have seen the result of crating for extended amounts of time: during day when at owner is at work, rotated or full in the evening for sleep. The difference (decrease) in muscle tone was notable and the dog was very happy to be in a large run and built condition, coat and attitude back very quickly.

Our dogs are kenneled in an outside barn that we built; good size kennel runs built inside, access to fresh air, movement, something to watch, covered and protected from the elements. NPR playing in the background.... We do not kennel our dogs or crate them to build drive to work – that is not needed .

I know people that have built the small houses with attached kennels – Charlie with Nike (2nd place WUSV) has one that we saw in a video and someone explained that was Nike’s house . So, he is an outside dog, but Charlie apparently takes him on the road with him. No impact to his work...

The focus should be on the quality time that you spend with your dog. That is part of the reason that I asked for clarification on inside versus outside. Back to what Dennis alluded to a few weeks ago – just because a dog is inside does not mean they have open access to the house. A lot of “inside dogs” that I know of/heard of are taken out in the AM, crated in wire/vari kennels all day (9+ hours), rotated a bit in the evening and then back to crates. So, there are some dogs that are crated about 16-18 hours per day.

The dog should be happy to see you and be happy to do something to do. A good and strong relationship with the dog will create that; no crating to build drive, in the house, etc.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: TNGSD... are there really dogs that are incapable of being a house dog or just owners that do not take the time to exercise and teach them to calm down?


Yes, there are! I'm not saying they are necessrily mentally "sound", but there are some that no amount of exercise or training will convince them that the house is a place for being calm and resting. And the ONLY time they will relax and/or sleep is if they are crated or kenneled.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There are, but they're really not that common. And in those cases what is commonly misunderstood as the dog having too much drive is actually the dog having a nerve weakness causing hyperactivity.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild And in those cases what is commonly misunderstood as the dog having too much drive is actually the dog having a nerve weakness causing hyperactivity.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum*... in my mind, if I have to deprive the dog of a normal life to get him to work, he should not be working or at least not working for someone so competitive that they will do this to eek out every point.*Lee


BRAVO!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: bmass01 If I pursue this I want to be able to succeed and if having to kennel my puppy full time is the only way to do that, then it is a waste of my time.



You have to decide what "succeed" means to YOU.

To me it means my dog and I have fun together, learn together, grow together.

If Mauser enjoys Schutzhund then we will keep doing it. Even if we never trial (whatever the reason).


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The high level competitors that I know (both here in the states and in Germany, Holland, Belgium, Austria, Italy, Sweden and Hungary) do not deprive the dog to eek out points. The focus is on building the relationship with the dog, quality time with the dog, establishing structure with the dog, training the dog yourself and knowing how to train your dog as well as instruct the helper what you want done. These are people that look at this as a team and as a sport.

There is sometimes too much of a generalization (the deprive action) based on knowing or hearing about 1 or 2 people. This is an eduring adage that is brought up, based on 1 or 2 incidents or competitors.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The high level competitors that I know (both here in the states and in Germany, Holland, Belgium, Austria, Italy, Sweden and Hungary) do not deprive the dog to eek out points. The focus is on building the relationship with the dog, quality time with the dog, establishing structure with the dog, training the dog yourself and knowing how to train your dog as well as instruct the helper what you want done.

There is sometimes too much of a generalization (the deprive action) based on knowing or hearing about 1 or 2 people. This is an eduring adage that is brought up, based on 1 or 2 incidents or competitors.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I got into "discussions" with some people for the need to keep your Sch dog in the kennel, That's not what I wanted, I wanted a well trained dog I could take to the playground with my kids and be a full time family companion that can turn it on when the need arises or at least give pause to any nefarious charactors. I admit it, I wanted a dog that I could show off and be the envy of most every one that sees her. You can't do that if she is bouncing off the kennel walls. Yes I keep them in kennels when I'm at work or have contractors over or doing yard work and when feeding but the rest of the time they are under foot being a total PITA and I'm happy with that


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Sue that spending their time in a kennel is far healthier for the dog than being in the house stuffed in a crate for 18 hours or more per day. When kenneled they can potty, move around, view the world, etc. Kenneling, though, is NOT required for a dog to be a good schutzhund.


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## bmass01 (Apr 7, 2005)

Thank you all very much for you views and opinions.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And you might also want to clarify - already titled dogs or dogs in training.

Hope that helps!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

Too many "ifs" to really answer that question. Are we talking Schutzhund dog or a true working dog? Big difference.


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