# Choosing A Puppy



## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

So, a friend of mine is really interested in getting a GSD puppy from a local breeder. The breeder did ask if they were comfortable with owning a hyperactive dog that sheds a lot and needs a lot of attention. Now, the breeder isn't picking her puppy for her. She's kind of new to picking out puppies, so for those of you that have picked out your own puppies...What were your methods of picking out the best puppy? I know that a lot of people here think that the breeder should ALWAYS pick out your puppy, but until you can really get around the puppies and see for yourself which one jives the best with you, you can never really know for sure. So, I would prefer no comments such as "walk away from this breeder" or "the breeder should always pick the pups". I know this and I have expressed my concern to her but the puppies are in good health and the parents are built pretty nice and have been hip/elbow tested clear so that's at least a plus.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would walk away from someone who promoted their dogs as being hyperactive.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

So I personally do not think a breeder should chose the puppy for you in all situations, but should help with input, especially since your friend is new to puppy picking. Coming from the working border collie world, having a breeder chose the puppy isn’t that common from what I have seen. The breeder has more knowledge than anyone on the drives and temperaments the puppies have shown to date which is a value to your friend in making her decision. I think it is completely in line for a breeder to say no to a customer if they know the puppy will not meet the needs of the new owners. When I picked Dante I had to rely on the breeder because the litter was across the county so I couldn’t size up the puppies myself. I had second pick because I wanted breeding rights and a dog to do protection sports with. The breeder tested the puppies drives and temperaments and gave me an honest assessment of which ones she thought would work. Based on looks alone, I wanted red collar puppy and my boyfriend liked green collar puppy, but we waited till seven weeks for the final evaluation of the temperaments before we made our choice. Based on that the breeder said she thought lime collar puppy and red collar puppy were the top two, so Paul’s pick was out and mine was in. It’s funny because the people in line first picked red collar puppy but they went in person to the puppies and black collar puppy picked them so they took him instead. So honestly I think your friend should tell the breeder what they want in a dog, and ask which ones they think would be a good match for that. Puppies are always a gamble honestly but you can stack the deck in your favor by getting educated opinions. I got one of my best dogs from a working border collie breeder in the UK, when I went to look at the puppies I wanted a male and my ex preferred black and white, there was one male black and white left so that was the puppy I went home with. He was the best dog I have ever had the pleasure of training and working. Most sheepdog people I have interacted with find a breeding they like and then just pick a puppy they like because they don’t really think you will know what you got until the dog is on sheep. I think German shepherds are a little different depending on what you want to do with them, but I am still of the opinion it is more important to find a good breeder who matched two dogs for certain reasons that which puppy out of the litter you get.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

knwilk44 said:


> She's kind of new to picking out puppies, so for those of you that have picked out your own puppies...What were your methods of picking out the best puppy?


There is no best puppy, there's only the best puppy for you. What might be the best puppy for one person would be Disaster Puppy for another person. What is your friend looking for in a dog?


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I would walk away from someone who promoted their dogs as being hyperactive.


Why? They are being brutally honest about the breed and making sure that the prospective new owners are fully aware of the breed and all that they entail. It's the honest truth about the breed. Personally, if I were looking for a puppy and someone was this honest about the breed I'd choose them over anyone that sugarcoated things.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Before you even think about picking a breeder, let alone a puppy from a breeder, it's very important you go in knowing http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html and http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...79460-different-flavors-german-shepherds.html

That way you'll be much more likely to recognize the good and the bad when you actually start talking to a breeder about their dogs and program.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Emoore said:


> There is no best puppy, there's only the best puppy for you. What might be the best puppy for one person would be Disaster Puppy for another person. What is your friend looking for in a dog?


 
She mainly wants something that can be a family dog and possibly do some obedience trials. Family dog is the utmost importance to her, I think. She's got a 9 year old girl so of course family oriented is something very important.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

knwilk44 said:


> Why? They are being brutally honest about the breed and making sure that the prospective new owners are fully aware of the breed and all that they entail. It's the honest truth about the breed. Personally, if I were looking for a puppy and someone was this honest about the breed I'd choose them over anyone that sugarcoated things.


I have two working line males. Neither one is hyperactive. 

That breeder may be brutally honest about the dogs they breed, but to make a blanket statement like that about GSDs it totally dishonest and misleading. It is not the honest truth about the breed, but a blatant lie.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> I have two working line males. Neither one is hyperactive.
> 
> That breeder may be brutally honest about the dogs they breed, but to make a blanket statement like that about GSDs it totally dishonest and misleading. It is not the honest truth about the breed, but a blatant lie.


 
I've met quite a few GSDs that have been "hyper" and it's honestly not that uncommon within the breed so not a blatant lie but it may be a lie about your own dogs.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Germans Shepherds are high energy dogs bred to work. High energy should never be confused with hyperactive.

I would think that most of the dogs you feel are hyper are merely underexercised, possbly poorly trained.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> Germans Shepherds are high energy dogs bred to work. *High energy should never be confused with hyperactive.*
> 
> I would think that most of the dogs you feel are hyper are merely underexercised, possbly poorly trained.


Excellent. Kudos. Nailed it.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> Germans Shepherds are high energy dogs bred to work. High energy should never be confused with hyperactive.
> 
> I would think that most of the dogs you feel are hyper are merely underexercised, possbly poorly trained.


 
I do think that is possibly what the breeder meant to say but possibly the wording came out wrong? I don't know the breeder personally but the parents are built pretty well and have been health tested, etc. so it's not all bad.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

There's some good info about choosing a medium-energy "pet" pup in Cesar's book How to Raise the Perfect Dog.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> I do think that is possibly what the breeder meant to say but possibly the wording came out wrong? I don't know the breeder personally but the parents are built pretty well and have been health tested, etc. so it's not all bad.


Kristin, slow down and look at the bigger picture here. 

Parents being "built pretty well" isn't enough. "Health tested" doesn't tell enough, either.

My mix mutt is really well built and currently healthy, but he sure ain't gonna be bred.

Your statement: _"Why? They are being brutally honest about the breed and making sure that the prospective new owners are fully aware of the breed and all that they entail. *It's the honest truth about the breed.* Personally, if I were looking for a puppy and someone was this honest about the breed I'd choose them over anyone that sugarcoated things."_

I'm going to pick this apart. Brutally honest about the breed? No. No self-respecting breeder would describe this breed as "hyperactive." They'd describe the breed as one that needed to work, to have a job, to be very well exercised, to be mentally challenged. To call those needs "hyperactive" would send me _*running*_ the other way.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

chelle said:


> Kristin, slow down and look at the bigger picture here.
> 
> Parents being "built pretty well" isn't enough. "Health tested" doesn't tell enough, either.
> 
> ...


 
I understand that completely. They're relatively new in the area and I think they're relatively new to breeding. However, I'm not too sure on that. I'll be going with her to pick up the puppy next weekend so if anything about them or the dogs seems off I can be there to warn her. But, perhaps people don't fully understand what hyperactive in a dog means. If you break down the word altogether, hyper- over and then of course active. What would be the bad thing about having an over active GSD? This is an honest question, no sarcasm intended. So, even though the parents may be viewed as hyper and "high energy" is what maybe he should have said, you could get one of the puppies and make sure it is properly trained and worked right, it could be one of the best dogs anyone has ever had? I, myself, am still relatively new to the breed and can't speak much for high energy dogs because Lord knows my Zach isn't high energy lol. Except for when he knows we are going for a walk and he does get excited but that's about the only time he could even be somewhat described as "hyper".


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

knwilk44 said:


> I understand that completely. They're relatively new in the area and I think they're relatively new to breeding. However, I'm not too sure on that. I'll be going with her to pick up the puppy next weekend so if anything about them or the dogs seems off I can be there to warn her. But, perhaps people don't fully understand what hyperactive in a dog means. If you break down the word altogether, hyper- over and then of course active. *What would be the bad thing about having an over active GSD?* This is an honest question, no sarcasm intended. So, even though the parents may be viewed as hyper and "high energy" is what maybe he should have said, *you could get one of the puppies and make sure it is properly trained and worked right, it could be one of the best dogs anyone has ever had?* I, myself, am still relatively new to the breed and can't speak much for high energy dogs because Lord knows my Zach isn't high energy lol. Except for when he knows we are going for a walk and he does get excited but that's about the only time he could even be somewhat described as "hyper".


Dogs need to have an off switch, that is why you want high energy to work, but not hyperactive and unable to settle in the house or miss a day or so of work or exercise. 

Thank you for defining hyperactive, but I would think that most of the people posting here were already well aware of the definition and not guessing at it.

Do you have any clue how much exercise and training is involved with a high energy dog? Have you or your friend ever had one? Or do you know anybody that has one?


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> Dogs need to have an off switch, that is why you want high energy to work, but not hyperactive and unable to settle in the house or miss a day or so of work or exercise.
> 
> Thank you for defining hyperactive, but I would think that most of the people posting here were already well aware of the definition and not guessing at it.
> 
> Do you have any clue how much exercise and training is involved with a high energy dog? Have you or your friend ever had one? Or do you know anybody that has one?


Well, obviously I don't have one like I said in my previous post and have never had one. She's willing to take the puppy to puppy classes and a trainer and will be doing so. I can about imagine how much work and training a high energy dog is lol. It also isn't like they're charging show/breeding quality prices for the puppies and have a spay/neuter contract that includes a clause that says if something should happen and the new owners can't keep the puppy that the puppy comes back to them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Energetic is a positive thing. 
Hyperactive...not so much.

And, as a rescue, we see a hyperactive dog from time to time. I mean, frenetic energy they can hardly burn off. 
None of my GSDs were ever that way.

If the "breeder" your friend has chosen does not meet the criteria shown in the posts others put up about reputable breeders, RUN LIKE ****!!! 
I mean...why buy a poorly bred puppy when you could rescue a dog or puppy for the same amount or less than a poorly bred puppy?? 

With a child in the home, the last thing they need is some BYB nervy hyperactive puppy!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> Do you have any clue how much exercise and training is involved with a high energy dog? Have you or your friend ever had one? Or do you know anybody that has one?


Solid point. There is a great difference between hyperactive and drive. My rescue dog is hyperactive, and it's a torture to live with her at times. She's constantly up and about, bugging everyone, can't sit still even when she is tired and is always whining. My Wiva is very driven and has incredible prey/ball drive. She can play 2 ball for hours on end. But if told, she goes to her crate or bed and stays quiet. It's just as important to be able to manage drive as it is to have drive...

Watch this. A high drive puppy is not an easy task. Unless you have expertise with the breed and high energy dogs, it's not a good idea to go with a "hyperactive" puppy right off the bat. 
Leerburg On Demand | So You Think You Want a High Drive Puppy

If your friend and you do not have the necessary experience to pick out a puppy, it's usually best to defer to the experts. A reputable breeder will usually listen to your specifications and select a puppy FOR you based on the breeder's better judgment. You will probably see the litter for a few hours. The breeder sees them since birth so a good breeder will be much better at picking a puppy for you than you.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

And I want to add that I never let my rescue dog that has hyperactivity issues around children. She is just too much of a liability. I can't trust her to behave herself around small humans that poke, prod, stumble around and yank.

Who is this breeder anyway? I assume in KY. Be careful with KY breeders is all I'll say...


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

knwilk44 said:


> *It also isn't like they're charging show/breeding quality prices* for the puppies and have a spay/neuter contract that includes a clause that says if something should happen and the new owners can't keep the puppy that the puppy comes back to them.


 
But if they are reputable breeders, why aren't they charging quality prices? 

I would run from a breeder that *did not have expectations* that the litter they bred, with proper health checks and titling, would be breedworthy.

If this breeder is new, what makes your friend so certain that this breeder will be around if she finds she can't handle a high energy dog, or worse, one that might be hyperactive?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think every person has their own idea of what high energy and hyperactive mean. Until you've really been around a lot of german shepherds, its really difficult to tell the difference between low, medium, and high of anything. OP, you stated your dog was not high energy, but you've met a few that were, well without knowing those dogs personally, or knowing their age and other factors, you can't really say how hyperactive they were. Maybe that situation got them excited but then the moment they are out of it they settle down just fine.

A GSD should have more energy than most other breeds of dog, the breeder sounds like they're trying to explain to your friend that the dog will need more work than an average dog, just maybe doing it in the wrong way. I got to pick my puppy, and we just kind of took some time and were around them a little bit. We saw which ones were playful, which ones were more standoffish, and which ones were just fine with finding a corner to sleep in. I took a ball and threw it to see who would go after it. In the end, we took the puppy that came and sat in my GF lap. The dog ended up being the perfect one for us.

I'd look at the parents and see what their level of activity is, maybe figure out what lines they're from (even a general line of ASL/Working/WGSL) so that you know what to kind of expect. It sounds like your friend would be really happy with an ASL dog that could do obedience trialing and other activities but doesn't necessarily require 2 hours of exercise and training every day. It's really difficult trying to figure out the personality of a puppy when you see it for the first time, or have not done it before (like a breeder). They're all so cute and fuzzy that we tend to make a decision based on coat color and the "cutest one." I don't suggest running from this breeder, but I'd just pick a puppy that seems happy, playful, and just all together full of life. I'm sure she'll love it no matter what.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

adding a dog is an investment for 10+ years of your life. Why is it that people do more research into buying a used car than purchasing a living creature?
We don't say "awesome. They are only selling this car for $100; it must be a great deal!" do we? No, because you get what you pay for.

Any good breeder is going to have pups that for whatever reason don't quite meet the standard. Might be what color it is, might be that they have 5 girl pups and were hoping for a male! Better to shoot for the stars and miss than to aim for the gutter and hit it.

That just means, if you aren't breeding the best of the best, then you aren't going to get the best puppies.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> Better to shoot for the stars and miss than to aim for the gutter and hit it.


:spittingcoffee:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I find it interesting that one statement from a breeder makes you all judge them as irresponsible. Also the price of the dog was never mentioned, it was stated that it isn't up to where the show dogs go for...which has been known to be $3000+. This puppy could be $1500 and according to my math that's much less than $3000 and would still be considered by most people on this forum as the price of a good working line.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

"no contracts", amongst other things, as well. There was more than just them describing their dogs as hyperactive.

OP, can you find OFA scores on the breeder's dogs? Also marte, I believe the price range is closer to $300.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'll be going with her to pick up the puppy next weekend so if anything about them or the dogs seems off I can be there to warn her.


Gosh, I hope you don't go and get puppy fever out there and bring one home for yourself!


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Gosh, I hope you don't go and get puppy fever out there and bring one home for yourself!


 
Lord no! As cute as they may be I know that I'm not equipped to handle two dogs right now. Zach is enough with my two babies. I've asked a couple people about the breeder and have gotten some information about them and all I can do is tell Abby (my friend) and let her make the decision.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

If you don't mind, I'll post what I posted elsewhere so others can possibly benefit or chime in as well:

A "pet" quality puppy has to do more than any other type of dog. He needs to be good with children, with the mailman, get along with other dogs and cats, control himself around the dinner table, provide companionship and serves as a partner. A pet should be no different than a show dog or working dog. A good dog is a good dog no matter his purpose. The end purpose should not deter you from going after the BEST puppy you can find for your home...just because the puppy is a pet does not mean he needs to come from a BYB. 

LOOKING at a puppy tells you nothing about his health. You cannot see his GENETICS by looking at him. That's why you need solid evidence about the reliability of the puppy. What are the health certifications for the sire and dam? What was the goal of the breeding? Were they breeding to make a quick buck or to IMPROVE the breed by producing something better with this breeding? Are there pedigrees going back for generations so you can trace inbreeding/linebreeding? Are the parents/grandparents/great-grandparents hip/elbow certified? Were the ancestors shown and worked? What evidence is there that this puppy is healthy? Someone's word is not good enough when they are trying to make a sale. You need to have proof because every puppy is the best puppy when a breeder is trying to make a sale 

What if the puppy starts to get elbow or hip dysplasia? What if he develops DM? What if he has severe aggression issues? What if he is a fear biter? What if he is a submissive urinator? What if he has terrible allergies? GSDs are prone to the following (and MORE) health conditions: hip/elbow issues, bloat, DM, fistulas, digestive issues, allergies, skin problems, cancers like hemangiosarcomas etc. The list is endless. 

Purebred dogs are riddled with health problems that you cannot see when you pick up a puppy. The dog develops these issues over time AFTER you bond with and love the dog. At that point, what will you do? Hip/elbow surgeries can easily cost 5000-6000k PER hip. An emergency bloat surgery costs 2-3 grand easily. I've experienced these problems and only wish others could learn from the mistakes that others have made. It's heartbreaking to watch as an owner has to put down his dog because he cannot afford the surgery fees. In the end, you will probably end up spending MORE than if you bought from a good breeder. 

Shelters are already so full of purebred dogs that come from BYBs and people discard them easily because they paid hardly anything for him so why not just get rid of him. And two, some of these issues cannot be solved and the person doesn't have or want to spend the time or money fixing these issues. 

It doesn't matter if a dog is a pet or is shown or worked professionally. What matters is that you want to support a breeder that goes about breeding in the RIGHT way. Doing things the RIGHT way is not cheap or easy. 

Anyone can put a male and female together. But when you do the right things by doing hips/elbows, showing them (so others can accurately evaluate if your dog is within the breed standard) and working them (so you can accurately judge your dog's ability and temperament based on a standard), you produce dogs that you can be confident about and stand behind. You should want to buy from someone that will support you from the beginning to the end. That kind of lifetime guarantee doesn't come cheap and easy. It comes from a breeder's hard work and dedication. 

Putting two dogs to produce a random puppy is a big gamble. I doubt these BYB health certify or guarantee their dogs. If I had young children in the house, I would never take a gamble with a dog. There are already so many BYB dogs in shelters and it breaks my heart that they will never find homes because of their health/temperament issues. 

If you are willing to take a gamble on a dog's health and temperament, you might as well save a dog from a shelter because you know just as much (if not more) about that shelter dog as you do about the dog you buy from a BYB. At least a reputable breeder will be able to give you EVIDENCE as to why their dogs are worthy of the breed. It's just a bad idea to gamble with BYB. Maybe some of the time, nothing will happen. But if something does happen, usually the poor dog loses out. It's devastating to watch a 1 year old puppy that cannot get up or a female with such bad aggression issues that she cannot be touched. It kills me because these dogs are dogs that SHOULD NOT have been bred. They were bred by someone not thinking about where their dogs end up or what they produce. When you see the horrible results of BYB, it makes sense why so many people are against irresponsible breeding...

Breeding is not about profit...breeding is a great responsibility and the right people should be doing it for the right reasons...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

qbchottu said:


> If you are willing to take a gamble on a dog's health and temperament, you might as well save a dog from a shelter because you know just as much (if not more) about that shelter dog as you do about the dog you buy from a BYB.


Great post!!! All of it but I liked this part here. This is what I always tell people - if you can't afford a well-bred dog, don't buy a cheap knock off (maybe make a nice pet, but maybe not, too!), go to the shelters where you'll be able to get a "what you see is what you get", maybe even a dog under a year of age!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Exactly!!! I try to work closely with small rescues that fellow club members are affiliated with and it's astonishing how many purebreds they get daily. If you wait and research, you can find most any breed/age/color that you want and maybe even some rare finds. For example, Tier Haven adopted out a gorgeous liver-colored purebred GSD female last year! If I didn't actively show or train dogs, I would be very happy to take in retired breeding females or rescue dogs.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Kristin

If your friend has this urge for a GDS that is a good family dog - why didn't she have Zayda? 

I'm sorry if I've got your ex dogs name wrong. 
__________
Sue


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Kristin
> 
> If your friend has this urge for a GDS that is a good family dog - why didn't she have Zayda?
> 
> ...


 
She didn't want an older dog. Abby wants a puppy that she can raise around her child and family and get trained properly.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Doesn't that make you feel sad and a bit cross, bearing in mind all the problems you had rehoming Zayda - especially as she was so well behaved and gorgeous, and so good with your twins. 

I think I'd be somewhat put out really. 
_________
Sue


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Doesn't that make you feel sad and a bit cross, bearing in mind all the problems you had rehoming Zayda - especially as she was so well behaved and gorgeous, and so good with your twins.
> 
> I think I'd be somewhat put out really.
> _________
> Sue


 
Why should that have any effect on me helping a friend find something that she really wants? I'm not going to force someone to take a dog that I couldn't take care of because my hands were full. She wants what she wants and I know that she was pretty well behaved and was good with my twins. That's not the point here. The point of this post was to ask for advice so that I could help out a friend. Please stay on point. I specifically asked for comments that were related to the original question.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the best advice, honestly, is to tell your friend to walk away. "She wants what she wants" is never a good idea because most of the time, people have no idea WHAT they truly want.
She wants a puppy. She NEEDS a stable mature dog that is proven good around small children. As my grandma likes to say "You're old enough that your wants won't hurt you." 
So, if she is set on a puppy, then she NEEDS a good responsible breeder who will carefully screen homes and will help her to choose the puppy. Honestly, if the breeder was even remotely good, your friend wouldn't need your help. She would have a highly experienced expert who knows these puppies as well as your friend knows her own children and who wants to make the best match possible for the client AND the puppy.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> the best advice, honestly, is to tell your friend to walk away. "She wants what she wants" is never a good idea because most of the time, people have no idea WHAT they truly want.
> She wants a puppy. She NEEDS a stable mature dog that is proven good around small children. As my grandma likes to say "You're old enough that your wants won't hurt you."
> So, if she is set on a puppy, then she NEEDS a good responsible breeder who will carefully screen homes and will help her to choose the puppy. Honestly, if the breeder was even remotely good, your friend wouldn't need your help. She would have a highly experienced expert who knows these puppies as well as your friend knows her own children and who wants to make the best match possible for the client AND the puppy.


We are already aware of this. And I have already read NUMEROUS comments similar to this and this is also under the type of comments that I said that I didn't want. We know this, BUT since she is dead set on one of these puppies, what methods would you use to pick your puppy? I want to help her pick out the best POSSIBLE puppy for her and her family. I know that if you pick a good enough puppy and it's raised around children most times it won't have any issues with them.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm just going to take a step back from this and look up puppy picking methods on google and go from there.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

knwilk44 said:


> I know that if you pick a *good enough puppy *and it's raised around children most times it won't have any issues with them.


And therein lies the problem, right? You have no idea if this is a "good enough puppy". It's a gamble. Perhaps you'll win out and you get a cheap puppy that is a good pet and lives to an old age with no issues. Or things can go terribly wrong, and you'll be back on this forum asking for help. I hope you remember that quote I posted when issues invariably start to arise as soon as the puppy loses that initial "awww" appeal.

But no worries, we'll still be here and ready to answer any questions about the new addition...


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

I understand the reactions here. Nobody wants to encourage and support a back yard breeder which is unlikely to produce dogs worthy of the breed. But since we are talking about a home with a child, I'll give my quick puppy picking advice. First, sire and dam MUST have nerves of steel. No nervous, fearful dogs. Second, skip the puppies who do not approach you. The worst kind of dog to have in a home with kids are the shy puppies.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

knwilk44 said:


> I want to help her pick out the best POSSIBLE puppy for her and her family. I know that if you pick a good enough puppy and it's raised around children most times it won't have any issues with them.


but the point is that there is no WAY for you to help her pick the best possible puppy for her. 
"if you pick" and "most times"?? is that really good enough for her to risk her children? And not just her children, what about the health of the puppy?? What about the safety of the neighbor's children who might come to visit?

There are temperament tests that you can do on puppies, but again, it takes an experienced person to know what the pups' reactions MEAN. Are you an experienced trainer? Worked and/or titled numerous GSDs of various temperaments? Experienced in the behavior traits that are required in the breed and the common behavior problems? (saying that hyperactivity is common is a sign that you don't!) Experienced in the genetic basis of common GSD ailments? Experienced in heredity and genetics in general? Well-versed in the different bloodlines and the background of the dogs in the pedigree of these pups? Do you know what flaws the dogs in this pedigree have? What virtues? 

Has your friend talked in great detail about her exact plans for the pups? What experience she has in raising pups in general and GSDs in particular? Is she equipped for the amount of work and exercise a GSD puppy is going to need?


Unless you know these things, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to help her pick the best possible pick. So, my advise would be to find out as much of this info as possible. Otherwise, you might as well just let her take home the "cutest".


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Animal behavioralists have identified criteria for determining the pecking order of a litter during an age period of 5 to 7 weeks. It’s called the Campbell Puppy Behavior Test.
The test is fairly simple and requires four different procedures. Here’s an oversimplification:


First, take the puppy away from its comfort zone, probably its welping box, and love it up a bit. After putting the puppy down, see if it will come when it is called. It’s a good sign if the puppy comes. If it takes off, it shows that it is independent, if it hits the ground and clams up, it might tell you it’s a wallflower.
Second, take the puppy on a short walk. A puppy that tags along and nips at your pant legs shows its boldness. The other extreme is one that hesitates, with its tail between its legs.
Third is the restraining procedure. Turn the puppy on its back. If it fights and struggles, it usually is an indication it’s a go-getter. If it gives up, it shows it respects you as the boss.
Fourth, lift the pup off the ground 3 to 4 inches. An aggressive dog will fight you, while a passive one will let you handle it. What we are trying to do is eliminate the knothead, the one who thinks he’s the boss, or the shy one, that one that gives up.
A tough handler might want to pick a rowdy pup. But, if you’re more lackadaisical or easygoing, you might want the mellow one.
 But to do a proper job, it takes more than looking at a litter of puppies once and making a selection. The test works, but it has its limitations. First of all, it’s got to be run at different times of the day and at different ages during that 5-to 7-week-old growth period. This can be difficult because you and the breeder have a large time commitment.

(sorry for the highlights!)


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> Otherwise, you might as well just let her take home the "cutest".


Which is usually what ends up happening. Everyone falls in love with the first puppy that comes up to them or sits in their lap. Sometimes people want to rescue the littlest or get the biggest because he'll be huge. Other times they want to pick the "alpha" and pick the highest drive bully in the pack, then 6 months later come back and ask why he is jumping up on the kids. All random split second behavior from a pack of puppies somehow tend to carry great meaning to inexperienced puppy buyers. I know I was the exact same way when I didn't know any better. 

That's why for people who have little experience with this type of thing, it's best to go with a good breeder that can make the process rewarding and beneficial to everyone involved.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> "She wants what she wants" is never a good idea because most of the time, people have no idea WHAT they truly want.


Which is what keeps backyard breeders, puppy mills and petstores in business. And in turn, fills up rescues, shelters and land fills ALL the freaking time.

Kristin. Tell your friend if she likes her kids' faces without scars and stitches, to stay away from this breeder. Period.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

qbchottu said:


> Which is usually what ends up happening. Everyone falls in love with the first puppy that comes up to them or sits in their lap. .


I was once told that THIS is one of the #1 no-nos for the average pet owner. Quite often,the fist pup to approach a stranger is going to be the most confident and outgoing - likely a more alpha personality. NOT a good match for your average pet home, especially one with small children.

Or people pick the poor shy puppy - often a dog that grows up to have fear issues or at least insecurities. Not necessarily a problem in an experienced home but a disaster in the making for an inexperienced owner with small children.

So, one important criteria would be the middle pup. You don't want the most ambitious pup but avoid the shy wallflower as well.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> We are already aware of this. And I have already read NUMEROUS comments similar to this and this is also under the type of comments that *I said that I didn't want*. We know this, BUT since she is dead set on one of these puppies, what methods would you use to pick your puppy? *I want to help her pick out the best POSSIBLE puppy* for her and her family. *I know that if you pick a good enough puppy and it's raised around children most times it won't have any issues with them*.


*Bolded #1:* May not have wanted, but probably really needed to hear.

*Bolded #2:* How much help are you, really? You've already said you have zero experience here. This person is apparently looking to you as knowledgable and you're not, by your own admission. So you're now looking to Google. I hope you find something helpful. 

You will do your friend the greatest service by guiding her away from this. Tell her about your experience with the Husky. I wouldn't be as concerned if there weren't young children involved. If I had young children, I have no idea how I would properly exercise and train a puppy. Sure, people do it and kudos to them. OTOH, lots of people get a pup with good intentions, wanting to raise it with the child, pup goes thru nutball stage, doesn't get what it needs because children must come first... next thing you know, a 10 month old dog is for sale, or for free, on Craigslist. Yeah, I know -- I'm looking at such an abandoned dog in my living room right now. The dog was "put out back" from almost the start of its life and when it got too big and jumped on the little ones, it was nearly completely banished from human contact. That was a mother "protecting" her human children, yes, but that was also a human neglecting her responsibility to a dog.

Only for myself, if I had young kids, I'd absolutely, positively insist on going to the best possible breeder and doing my research and homework. We're not talking about little fuzzball dogs here. We're talking about a breed that has been overbred in places, and such dogs are far more prone to aggression and health issues. Going thru a good, responsible breeder doesn't guarantee things, no, but it certainly ups the likelihood of not getting a nervebag dog. I own a partially nervebag dog. It has taken extensive work. Work that I absolutely cannot possibly see a young mother being able to do simply due to time constraints. The likelihood of her getting such a dog is much higher the way she is going about it. That's just the truth. Could she get lucky? Sure. I hope she does. 

*Bolded #3:* A "good enough" puppy? I'm not trying to be nasty, but that statement is just.. folly. Won't have "any" issues? All pups have "issues." Some are just different than others. Some worse than others. 

Has this person *ever* raised a puppy? I do mean, raised a puppy by herself? If no, she's taking on A LOT here. Too much, I think. Sounds like she's blinded by what she wants this to be. I really hope and pray you're not back here in 6, 8, 10 months trying to find a good home for this dog.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, I have to voice my opinion here. There is no way anyone here can sit here and tell me that a pup from this "breeder" will be a nervy, aggressive nut case without personally meeting the parents. That's why we aren't buying from a supposed "reputable breeder" and having a pup shipped to us unknowing of what the parents truly are. We will see how the parents act and are with us since we are total strangers and then go from there. If they act great around us and are friendly and accepting then with the help of a trainer that Abby will seek out to help with the training of the pup, I'm pretty positive that if she gets a middle of the pack pup it will be fine if raised with her child. She's raised a puppy before. She's older than I am and has already been told about what the husky did. The prime example of why she doesn't want an older dog. No telling what you're really gonna get.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would reply here, but I have a feeling I would be wasting my time.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

That is exactly OPPOSITE! With an older dog, it is what it is. If the dog is confidemt and good with children, then that is what you have. Pups? They have 2 years of growing to do before they are adults! 
Also, pups are more than just their parents' temperaments. You have to know about siblings and grandparents and aunts and uncles. How 2 dogs react in the comfort of their own home with their owners isn't any kind of evaluation for saying the pups won't have problems. ANY pup can have issues, even a dog from the most responsible of breeders. But going with less than the best increases the odds of problems.
She has raised puppies? Good! Has she ever dealt with a GSD pop? They call them landsharks for a reason! And they can easily overwhelm a child. Not to mention that the cute fuzzy puppy is going to quickly outweigh a young child.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Stupid phone ate part of my post, so here it is again.
I would recommend a pup from a RESPONSIBLE breeder shipped sight unseen over a BYB pup any day. Notice I didnt say reputable? There are many threads here about how to choose a rezponsible breeder. Things to look for and things to avoid. Take that checklist and evaluate this breeder objectively.
In the end, only your friend can make rhe decision. But taking the easy way out is rarely worth it in the end.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> Well, I have to voice my opinion here. *There is no way anyone here can sit here and tell me that a pup from this "breeder" will be a nervy, aggressive nut case* without personally meeting the parents. That's why we aren't buying from a supposed "reputable breeder" and having a pup shipped to us unknowing of what the parents truly are. We will see how the parents act and are with us since we are total strangers and then go from there. If they act great around us and are friendly and accepting then with the help of a trainer that Abby will seek out to help with the training of the pup, I'm pretty positive that if she gets a middle of the pack pup it will be fine if raised with her child. She's raised a puppy before. She's older than I am and has already been told about what the husky did. The prime example of why she doesn't want an older dog. No telling what you're really gonna get.


Bolded 1 -- No one can say that, true enough, but I don't believe anyone has. At least in a definite sense. They've warned it is a likely possibility. 

Slow down -- let those hackles sink back in. 

I actually do think your heart is in the right place, but the impetuous nature of this is my concern. You young people just move too darned fast sometimes. You don't do your proper homework. I can say that because I have been young and impetuous myself. 

I am personally not a fan of shipping a dog. I would not do it. I would drive there. ~~BUT~~ I *would* purchase, sight-unseen, from a breeder that I had properly researched, communicated with extensively, and felt they were completely on board with me in terms of my future plans, needs, etc. And I would do that without ever meeting the parents. This would not be a fast process to me. I can see it easily being a year long ordeal. I would want the interest and support of the breeder, and I'd want that breeder to believe in ME. I'd want that breeder to want to remain in touch with me, and know what I am doing with that dog. 

(Also -- keep in mind, the bitch may not be any too happy to see you, she may likely still be pretty protective of those pups!)

The parents may be wonderful. Yet, that doesn't tell diddly about health.

What if the parents are not wonderful? Will she change her mind?

Kristen... seriously... slow down.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

chelle said:


> Bolded 1 -- No one can say that, true enough, but I don't believe anyone has. At least in a definite sense. They've warned it is a likely possibility.
> 
> Slow down -- let those hackles sink back in.
> 
> ...


 
Hackles were never up  It just irritates me when I say in the OP that we are already aware of what a responsible breeder will do and that I didn't need to be lectured in what one was. I'm not in any rush at all.... Abby is the one buying the pup and only wants me to go with her I guess for the moral support because she doesn't know these people. They seem like nice people and the pups have already been to the vet for their first round of puppy shots and been dewormed. I called and talked to them today. I also told Abby that when we go to look at the puppies next week if they show no vet records at all I'm dragging her back to the car and we are leaving. I also have warned her about what a GSD puppy can be like and her child is an older child in school from 7-4 so she has those hours every day to devote to a puppy and I know she will take the puppy through puppy classes and have a trainer on hand when the puppy gets older. Her and I have spent the last hour or so talking this over and she's fully aware of the health risks involved. But, I have to comment on adult dogs are what you see what you get. Not ALWAYS the case, as was proved in the case where my husky bit my child. She started out the first few days fine with the kids. Didn't really pay much attention them and then she up and bites him and starts dragging him away. She was also misrepresented as being kid friendly. So no, you don't always get what you "see" in an adult dog. I just got lucky with Zach and am so thankful that the Lord blessed my family with such an amazing family dog. With all of that said, I've made Abby full aware that the puppy may very well herd and jump on Lily (her daughter) and she agreed that that's what the trainer is for. She will be fully dedicated to this puppy for it's entire lifetime and will not just give up that easily. They have also had long haired dogs before, so when I warned her of possible allergies going on with the dog as well, she then told me about the long haired dog that her ex had when Lily was a bit younger and none were allergic to the hair then. We will just have to go and look at the puppies and she has been doing quite a bit of research on the breed for a while now. I have even lent her my copy of German Shepherds For Dummies so that she can do some further reading. She's already prepared with a crate, bowls, smaller bag of food, collar and leash. It's not like she is just completely diving head first into getting a puppy. She's been learning about the breed for the past couple months and feels that everyone in the family is ready for a puppy and the tasks that are ahead of them.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

People have been buying puppies for years and years without the benefit of a breeder picking out which pup goes where, but honestly, it just makes good sense to work with a breeder that's spent time evaluating their puppies and one who makes the match between pup and owner. (especially for people not familiar with the breed) But if that's not the kind of breeder your friend wants to go with, do the best you can. 

Ask a lot of questions. Which puppy is the most inquisitive, which one has the most energy, which one wanders off by itself etc. etc. There are some things you can pick up on right away when you meet puppies, excessive shyness or a timid dog as an example. Take time to interact with them all individually away from the rest of the litter and then with the litter. 

Take a close look at the parents. Take another look. Watch the dam, she's been raising the pups. Is she overly cautious, leary, barking past the initial "strangers just came in the yard" bark. Take another look at the sire. Try to be objective. 

Ask about their health, shots etc. Have they been dewormed, have they been to a vet. Watch out for runny eyes, overly swollen bellies, lethargic pups.

It's going to be a crap shoot if you don't know what you're seeing and it's going to be a crap shoot because you can't evaluate puppies in an hour. The truth is, your friend won't be the first or last person to pick out a puppy based on little more than "awe she licked my hand". Do the best you can and hope for the best.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

First I think you've gotten some good advice/suggestions.

It sounds like your friend Abby is dead set on one of these puppies..

You posted something rather conflicting, I just want to point out, about the breeder being brutally honest, how do you know they are being honest when neither one of you have ever met them or 'know' them? Just keep that in mind. 

If the dogs have elbow/hip clearances, ask to SEE the OFA paperwork. Ask for the name of their vet, and call & ask for a reference. 

I'm not liking that a breeder will let an inexperienced person just come in and pick a puppy. A good breeder will ask the person what they are looking for in a dog, and say ok, here's "3" that may fit the bill, (just throwing out a number there)...pick from those '3'... That breeder has lived with these puppies for 7+ weeks, if they observe and can 'peg' puppies, they will have a pretty good idea of personalities and temperament and match accordingly.

Lastly, if your friend is dead set on one, I personally, would NOT pick one for her. You can give your opinion, but I wouldn't pick one. What if the puppy YOU picked turned out to be totally wrong for them, they are going to come back and say "you picked a jerk thanks"..

No, no one can say what these dogs have produced, and frankly, neither will you be able to. Just because one jives with them the first visit, doesn't mean it will jive with them on the next.

People are going to do what they do, and I agree with do the best you can and hope for the best.

You don't mention "price"..?? It would also be interesting to see a copy of the pedigree.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Trying to predict future behavior around children regardless of whether a pup comes from a "reputable breeder" or "BYB" is almost impossible. Same goes for rescues.
There are too many other factors like training, teaching both dog and child to behave around each other, and the biggest to me is your own leadership abilities.
If you are not in charge then the best bred dog could become unmanageable.
I see more dog problems that are from the owners than the breeding. 
There are dogs that genetically will just not be "right" but there are a lot of dogs that would be fine if their owners would step up to the plate.
If your friend doesn't get one of these puppies someone else will so it won't alter dogs winding up in rescues one bit.
I would like to find a rescue that can or would guarantee how an adopted dog would be around children. Won't happen and shouldn't because the dynamics change once the dog hits its new home.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Same goes for rescues.


Yes and no. If you mean puppies, I agree. 
But adult dogs, quite another thing, because you can _see_ how they are with other dogs, cats, and kids. You can view the "finished product", if you will.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Yes and no. If you mean puppies, I agree.
> But adult dogs, quite another thing, because you can _see_ how they are with other dogs, cats, and kids. You can view the "finished product", if you will.


But still like Andy said, no one can guarantee how a dog will react to new children in a new environment.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> But still like Andy said, no one can guarantee how a dog will react to new children in a new environment.


Not a guarantee...but an adult who has already lived with kids is a safer bet than a crapshoot puppy from skitzy parentage.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> Hackles were never up  It just irritates me when I say in the OP that we are already aware of what a responsible breeder will do and that I didn't need to be lectured in what one was. I'm not in any rush at all.... Abby is the one buying the pup and only wants me to go with her I guess for the moral support because she doesn't know these people. They seem like nice people and the pups have already been to the vet for their first round of puppy shots and been dewormed. I called and talked to them today. I also told Abby that when we go to look at the puppies next week if they show no vet records at all I'm dragging her back to the car and we are leaving. I also have warned her about what a GSD puppy can be like and her child is an older child in school from 7-4 so she has those hours every day to devote to a puppy and I know she will take the puppy through puppy classes and have a trainer on hand when the puppy gets older. Her and I have spent the last hour or so talking this over and she's fully aware of the health risks involved. But, I have to comment on adult dogs are what you see what you get. Not ALWAYS the case, as was proved in the case where my husky bit my child. She started out the first few days fine with the kids. Didn't really pay much attention them and then she up and bites him and starts dragging him away. *She was also misrepresented as being kid friendly.* So no, you don't always get what you "see" in an adult dog. I just got lucky with Zach and am so thankful that the Lord blessed my family with such an amazing family dog. With all of that said, I've made Abby full aware that the puppy may very well herd and *jump on Lily (her daughter) and she agreed that that's what the trainer is for*. She will be fully dedicated to this puppy for it's entire lifetime and *will not just give up that easily.* They have also had long haired dogs before, so when I warned her of possible allergies going on with the dog as well, she then told me about the long haired dog that her ex had when Lily was a bit younger and none were allergic to the hair then. We will just have to go and look at the puppies and she has been doing quite a bit of research on the breed for a while now. I have even lent her my copy of German Shepherds For Dummies so that she can do some further reading. She's already prepared with a crate, bowls, smaller bag of food, collar and leash. It's not like she is just completely diving head first into getting a puppy. She's been learning about the breed for the past couple months and feels that everyone in the family is ready for a puppy and the tasks that are ahead of them.


Why don't you invite her here? Why go thru a middle person (you) ?

My intention earlier, when breeders and such came up, was not to steer the conversation that way. Just some of what you were saying didn't sound at all like you could recognize a good breeder. I chose a poor breeder in the past with my middle dog, so I am not throwing arrows at you. I know how the mistake gets made. 

As far as the "jump on Lilly and that's what the trainer is for" I'm not too clear there. I think you mean the trainer will teach her how to train the dog not to jump up? I don't like to assume.

I'm glad she seems to be fully and 100% committed.

As far as the misrepresentation with the Husky... if you didn't appreciate that it was misreprented to you, why did you turn around and describe her as kid friendly when you tried to re-home her?

If I had young children, I wouldn't likely get an adult shelter dog. I know, I know, that won't be a popular thing to say, but I feel the risk is too great. I would go to a rescue though, as they have lived with that dog for some time in their own homes.

I hope it all works out well for Abby and the pup she chooses.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> If I had young children, I wouldn't likely get an adult shelter dog. I know, I know, that won't be a popular thing to say, but I feel the risk is too great.


No, I agree.
A rescued pet - young adult to adult age (one in rescue, not a shelter) would be the way to go, with a caveat.
And that is, you've been to the foster home to meet the dog, interact with it, and seen how it interacts with the kids (if present, if not find another rescued pet) cats and other dogs. 
Oh and it would help for it to be a reputable rescue. When you read the dog's bio you should be able to get a "feel" for the dog and if you are suited or not, if you read the bio and there's no description there's going to be more footwork on your end!


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, Abby and I went to look at the puppies from the supposed "breeder" today. We did not come back with one. This breeder appalled me. He had puppies there with nasal deformities where their nose was crooked and looked like it had been wind swept. The mother was of course defensive over her pups, but that was expected with a new mother. The father was psycho and aggressive and had to be tied up the whole time we were there. So, as soon as we saw the puppy with the nose deformity we both looked at each other and agreed that we wouldn't be spending a second more there. Granted we are both relatively new to the breed and picking out a good GSD puppy....this was just something ANYONE could have told was wrong. Also, the puppies parents weren't health checked like he said and they were also only 5 weeks! When he had told us that they would be 8 weeks this weekend. Need less to say, I need to know who to report the dude to, because for one he has aggressive and dangerous dogs, for two he's selling puppies illegally. I doubt they had had any shots done at all and I didn't stick around to see if he was lying to us about that or not. Definitely a bad overall experience and I'm so mad that she was lied to like that and the fact that he's putting money above the welfare of those dogs and breeding/selling deformed dogs. The puppies also had fleas and ticks all over them as they were being kept outside. UGH! So frustrating that anybody could ever do that. But, I did get word that there may be a couple of full blooded puppies coming in to this reputable rescue up in Indiana that deals with GSD's. Maybe Abby can go and adopt one of those.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I know this is a a bit of a moot point because the breeder ended up being a big L-O-S-E-R. BUT. I think this can also be a matter of schematics. I think EVERY dog (other than bums) can easily get "hyperactive." An owner who does not meet their dog's mental and phsyical needs can turn into a monster. So a breeder being a bit melodramtic about a dogs energy level isn't necessarily bad I don't think.

I tend to talk up the negatives of our breed to most people. I love them (no kidding!), but am protective about who owns them.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

GSDElsa said:


> I know this is a a bit of a moot point because the breeder ended up being a big L-O-S-E-R. BUT. I think this can also be a matter of schematics. I think EVERY dog (other than bums) can easily get "hyperactive." An owner who does not meet their dog's mental and phsyical needs can turn into a monster. So a breeder being a bit melodramtic about a dogs energy level isn't necessarily bad I don't think.
> 
> I tend to talk up the negatives of our breed to most people. I love them (no kidding!), but am protective about who owns them.


 
I agree on talking up the negatives of the breed being a good thing to new puppy owners. If they are prepared to deal with the negatives that could "possibly" come out of owning the puppy then they're gonna make good owners for the puppies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Instead of saying "a hyper puppy", which IMO makes people sound uneducated...as if they sit around eating ding dongs all day watching the puppy destroy the house...why not say "an intelligent energetic breed that needs daily exercise, and an energy outlet. A good home for this breed would be one that likes to get outside daily and walk, jog, hike, etc., the dog may enjoy herding or agility, or even Schutzhund sports"?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't like using or hearing the word "hyper" I don't think there are truly 'hyper' dogs, I think it's more 'energy' level. Some have more energy than others, when they don't have an outlet to burn off that energy, well problems arise and to many tend to say "my dog is hyper", when it's in fact Energy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a dog I'd call hyper at times. It's not just energy but the dog has a very low threshold for what stimulates his drives, especially prey drive. He has a lot of energy but I wouldn't call him a super high energy dog, he doesn't get half the exercise that some people on this board describe, but he takes a bit longer to settle and if settled he's pretty easily roused, jumping around, whining/squealing, wanting to run and play. His mind is go, go, go and to him there's always something to see and do. It's like he thinks if he settles down and goes to sleep he's going to miss out on something.


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