# The trainer popped my pup on the nose



## JazzNScout

I am big into positive reinforcement. I don't hit my dogs. The most dramatic I've gotten is smacking a newspaper against my leg to catch their attention if they've done or are doing something REALLY bad & are not listening.

Today in class, my puppy's trainer popped her on the nose with her hand. Layla is 8 months old, testing boundaries and can be both stubborn AND pushy. She wasn't doing anything particularly outrageous, just not going along with the game plan. I have never touched this dog in a punishing way -- never. She is very sensitive to being reprimanded by voice (I have a really funny video somewhere on here that shows this). Both Layla and I were taken aback. What I really hated was to see Layla's reaction -- she was really confused and didn't want to go near the trainer again. Her face looked like, "Enough of THIS...that hurt!" 

I told the trainer I'd take over from there. It was clear she had ruined the dog wanting to be near her, violated the trust that had been built up, and Layla was done working with her. 

Am I overreacting because she's my little baby? Or was this way out of line? The trainer later alluded to Layla being a tad spoiled. Well, she is, yes. Not quite sure that's the way to "cure" it, though.


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## DJEtzel

I would have reacted by popping my trainer in the face, personally.

You're not overreacting at all. _I _don't lay a hand on my dogs, there's no way some _stranger _is going to.


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## Emoore

That would be enough for me to stop using the trainer, IMHO.


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## ShenzisMom

I agree. Just because the trainer uses other methods doesn't mean she should use them on YOUR dog.
Find a different trainer, ASAP. A good trainer will use the methods you are comfortable with, not 'bop' YOUR dog on the nose on a whim. 

And this is from someone who believes in Come to Jesus Meetings...


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## jkscandi50

great way to make a dog head shy and a fear biter - sees the hand coming will bite to stop it.


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## Rusty_212

The trainer you picked doesn't know a **** thing on how to train dogs. Take your dog elsewhere or do it on your own. For petes sake, she's still a puppy! Puppy's are very unruly and don't want to do some things, I know cause my 5 month old is going to classes now and I'm about a half hr he's bored and wants to leave, hitting a dog gets you nowhere with training.
You are NOT overeacting at all.


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## Emoore

I won't say I've never bopped a dog on the nose, but it's pretty much only been when they bite my hand as a knee-jerk reaction to the pain.


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## Iletthedogout

JazzNScout said:


> I am big into positive reinforcement. I don't hit my dogs. The most dramatic I've gotten is smacking a newspaper against my leg to catch their attention if they've done or are doing something REALLY bad & are not listening.
> 
> I told the trainer I'd take over from there. It was clear she had ruined the dog wanting to be near her, violated the trust that had been built up, and Layla was done working with her.
> 
> Am I overreacting because she's my little baby? Or was this way out of line? The trainer later alluded to Layla being a tad spoiled. Well, she is, yes. Not quite sure that's the way to "cure" it, though.


Yes the trainer was out of line. Yes you are overreacting. I suspect the dog would have recovered and went on with the training being very attentive to the trainer. You admit your dog is spoiled. Start there and stop spoiling your little baby.


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## Stosh

I have never ever seen a trainer at our obedience club use a hand to correct or punish a dog. In fact, the first night of classes they say they don't want to see an owner hit or physically punish their dog. It's simply not tolerated.


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## elisabeth_00117

DJEtzel said:


> *I would have reacted by popping my trainer in the face, personally.*
> 
> You're not overreacting at all. _I _don't lay a hand on my dogs, there's no way some _stranger _is going to.


This.

I then would of taken my dog, walked out, got in my car and found a new trainer.


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## Minnieski

Well, was it a tap or did she really smack her? I don't ever hit my dogs, but sometimes I give them a tap on the nose with a "leave it" if they try to nose in on my food.


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## DJEtzel

Iletthedogout said:


> Yes the trainer was out of line. Yes you are overreacting. *I suspect the dog would have recovered and went on with the training being very attentive to the trainer.* You admit your dog is spoiled. Start there and stop spoiling your little baby.


Have you ever worked with a correction-sensitive dog? My GSD is now fear aggressive as a result of the VET manhandling him too rough. This would have no doubt gotten a bite from him. Dogs DON'T always recover from this, and they shouldn't have to.


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## Elaine

I have no problems with a hand correction when it's needed. I do have a problem with your trainer doing it though. If your dog needed one, you should have been the one doing it. As it did happen, you should have been unsympathetic to your dog and then immediately praised her for stopping whatever she was doing.

It sounds like your dog is spoiled and doesn't listen and your trainer is getting frustrated.


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## Rusty_212

Elaine said:


> I have no problems with a hand correction when it's needed. I do have a problem with your trainer doing it though. If your dog needed one, you should have been the one doing it. As it did happen, you should have been unsympathetic to your dog and then immediately praised her for stopping whatever she was doing.
> 
> It sounds like your dog is spoiled and doesn't listen and your trainer is getting frustrated.


Well this sounds as if a new thread should be started: How many owners slap their dogs?


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## Wolfiesmom

I know exactly how you feel! It wasn't a trainer that hit Wolfie, but a perfect stranger who fancied herself a trainer that did it. I was taken aback as well. I wouldn't use that trainer anymore if I were you.


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## Good_Karma

Wonder how the parents on this board would feel about a teacher smacking their child's bottom in front of them? Regardless of the child's behavior, it is not the place of the teacher to lay hands on your child.

I know that dogs are not children, but I see a lot of similarities between the two scenarios.


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## supaflyz

I remember my cousin taking me to a trainer somewhere near the Woodlands down here in Tx. The trainer specialty was to train labradors to retrieve things for hunting. I saw him taking a shotgun shell and scraping or piercing against the dog ear or something. It looks painful, but I didn't see the dog yelp or anything.


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## onyx'girl

#1 I wouldn't let a trainer take my dogs leash or have control over it
#2 even if the dog is a bit "spoiled" a nose pop is not going to do anything other than causing distrust.

An 8 month old is usually not into training as they were at 6 months so you have to step up with the engagement and keeping it fun. Too bad trainers get so impatient instead of letting the dog mature a bit more. 













DJEtzel said:


> Have you ever worked with a correction-sensitive dog? My GSD is now fear aggressive as a result of the VET manhandling him too rough. This would have no doubt gotten a bite from him. Dogs DON'T always recover from this, and they shouldn't have to.


I find this interesting as I remember you had a thread on your dog being labeled by a vet of being aggressive. You adamantly denied it and blasted the vet and clinic...now you do say your dog has fear aggression?


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## Iletthedogout

DJEtzel said:


> Have you ever worked with a correction-sensitive dog? My GSD is now fear aggressive as a result of the VET manhandling him too rough. This would have no doubt gotten a bite from him. Dogs DON'T always recover from this, and they shouldn't have to.


Can you describe "correction-sensitive"? Maybe you can describe the '"manhandling" vet and how it damaged your dog as well. 

In terms of recovery, I'm assuming that the dog was not physically harmed or suffered long-term psychological/emotional damage due to a single "pop on the nose." In which case, the dog might have been able to refocus with the work and continue with the training.

With the new information, about the manhandling vet transforming your dog into a fear aggressive canine, It seems like there may be more issues involved with your dog than this one particular training event.


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## skyscrapers

Iletthedogout said:


> Yes the trainer was out of line. Yes you are overreacting. I suspect the dog would have recovered and went on with the training being very attentive to the trainer. You admit your dog is spoiled. Start there and stop spoiling your little baby.



+1.


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## onyx'girl

If a pup is of sound temperament and nerve they should be able to recover from a nose pop or a vet visit with no residual effects. I agree, I wouldn't have made a big deal of it in front of the dog, but that trainer would never have the opportunity to touch my dog ever again(same goes for a vet that isn't using proper manners/body language)


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## elisabeth_00117

onyx'girl said:


> If a pup is of sound temperament and nerve they should be able to recover from a nose pop or a vet visit with no residual effects. I agree, I wouldn't have made a big deal of it in front of the dog, but that trainer would never have the opportunity to touch my dog ever again(same goes for a vet that isn't using proper manners/body language)


+1.


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## crackem

I'd say you're overreacting, and If you're not comfortable with the trainer, don't go back. a nose tap on an 8 month old isn't going to do much of anything


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## TitonsDad

DJEtzel said:


> I would have reacted by popping my trainer in the face, personally.


 
:spittingcoffee:


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## G-burg

> Today in class, my puppy's trainer popped her on the nose with her hand. Layla is 8 months old, testing boundaries and can be both stubborn AND pushy. She wasn't doing anything particularly outrageous, just not going along with the game plan.


What was the exercise the trainer was teaching? What exactly was your dog doing to warrant the trainer popping her in the nose?

Just curious?


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## rvadog

Well what the heck was the reason for doing it?

If the dog won't sit then I'd usually say that was an inappropriate correction.

Then again there are some situations where it is appropriate.

What was the situation?


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## JKlatsky

Interesting to see everyone's different takes on this. 

First I don't think that it was OK for the trainer to bop your dog in the nose without talking to you about doing it first. I actually had a very well regarded trainer bop my dog in the nose when he was getting way too pushy with her over the ball. She bopped him good once, and you could see he was a little taken aback (at the time so was I). But he didn't try to be rude with her again. She had established very quickly that there were rules to her game. The bop on the nose served it's purpose and I was okay with it. I will do a certain amount of physical correction with my dogs after a positive marker based foundation is established, but I also believe and understand that different people have different feelings...and if they prefer to go a certain route with their training and are happy with the results- well that's their right to do with as they will with their dog (this includes the positive people AND the more old school type trainers)

You have a right to train your dog how you want to. 

However, I am inclined to agree with this statement.


Iletthedogout said:


> Yes the trainer was out of line. Yes you are overreacting. I suspect the dog would have recovered and went on with the training being very attentive to the trainer. You admit your dog is spoiled. Start there and stop spoiling your little baby.


I work a soft dog that is handler sensitive. I raise my voice and he wilts, he was also very sensitive to collar corrections. What I noticed with my dog was that when I chose not to use any collar/physical corrections at all in his foundation...when I finally got to the point where I really needed them to proof exercises (you think 8 months is rough? Wait until 18 months... ) my dog didn't think I could do anything but non-reward. So his first serious collar correction and DRAMA QUEEN. You would think I killed him. Did I stop using collar corrections? No. IMO dogs need to learn to work through corrections. If they quit the moment something gets a little uncomfortable, you have neglected to teach and reinforce work ethic. (It always reminds me of toddlers with over protective mothers...Did you ever watch a toddler who was learning to walk fall down and look around first to see if anyone was watching before they started to cry?? You can usually tell which kid has a Mom that fusses and which kid has a Mom that says You're fine. Get up) 

And like Onyx said...a good dog of sound temperament should recover quickly. 

Just my 2cents.


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## ShenzisMom

JKlatsky,

I completely agree with your statement.

Also-I think today's kids would be a little more well behaved if the teachers _did_ use corporal punishment. A little 'bop' on the butt didn't kill us. It won't kill them either. 

I thought it was a little low to compare kids to dogs...


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## ZebsMommy

I useda quick bop when needed occasionally, but mostly by using verbal corrections I have no issues. I would go with a different trainer that you are comfortable with.


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## PaddyD

Emoore said:


> That would be enough for me to stop using the trainer, IMHO.


Amen, time for a new trainer. Keepa you hands off!


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## JKlatsky

Deathmetal said:


> JKlatsky,
> 
> I completely agree with your statement.
> 
> Also-I think today's kids would be a little more well behaved if the teachers _did_ use corporal punishment. A little 'bop' on the butt didn't kill us. It won't kill them either.
> 
> I thought it was a little low to compare kids to dogs...


I'm a teacher. It's really amazing how much behavioral theory crosses over between dogs and kids...My mind can't help but draw parallels because it's what I see all the time.


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## JazzNScout

The trainer was showing me how to do something. After Layla did what she was told, she went for the treat with gumption. She didn't bite the trainer. Yes, she wants instant gratification (something I have mistakenly reinforced). The problem is she had done what she was supposed to and she clearly related finishing the command with being swatted. She didn't associate her going for the treat with the swat; therefore, she wouldn't repeat the command for the trainer and instead kept walking away from her like she was scared. 

Not to mention (again) I never touch my dog in a punishing manner and she's _very _sensitive to being talked to in a certain tone. 
I don't think my puppy is permanently damaged from this, but the punishment had a negative effect rather than a positive one. 
Without reacting with drama or coddling my dog, I simply said, "Let me try it with her." 

We have 3 more classes we have paid for. I'm going to insist me or my husband be the only ones handling the dog during the remainder of this session. I was planning on taking her elsewhere for more advanced obedience, anyway.


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## onyx'girl

So are you using a marker word before you reward her? That will stop her from assuming she gets a treat immediately after performing the command. And using a bridge word will help her to see that she has to hold position before the marker comes.
Have you viewed any of Michael Ellis's clips? There are so many training methods, personally I really like his!
The ones on engagement are timely in your situation:
Leerburg Streaming Video


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## G-burg

> she went for the treat with gumption. She didn't bite the trainer.


That's what I suspected.. But I also suspect that the dog did indeed get mouthy when going for treats and grabbed the instructors hand.. I would suspect too, the dog does the same to the handler.

And I only say this because I see it day in and day out. With a lot of clients asking for help in stopping their dogs from getting rough while taking a treat from them..


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## JazzNScout

onyx'girl said:


> So are you using a marker word before you reward her? That will stop her from assuming she gets a treat immediately after performing the command. And using a bridge word will help her to see that she has to hold position before the marker comes.
> Have you viewed any of Michael Ellis's clips? There are so many training methods, personally I really like his!
> The ones on engagement are timely in your situation:
> Leerburg Streaming Video


Excellent suggestion. Thank you.


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## JazzNScout

G-burg said:


> That's what I suspected.. But I also suspect that the dog did indeed get mouthy when going for treats and grabbed the instructors hand.. I would suspect too, the dog does the same to the handler.
> 
> And I only say this because I see it day in and day out. With a lot of clients asking for help in stopping their dogs from getting rough while taking a treat from them..


She does really well with "easy" and "gentle" when she gets too alligator-like when taking treats. In this instant, I believe she jumped forward for the treat vs. allowing the trainer to give it to her.


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## DJEtzel

onyx'girl said:


> I find this interesting as I remember you had a thread on your dog being labeled by a vet of being aggressive. You adamantly denied it and blasted the vet and clinic...now you do say your dog has fear aggression?


The vet said that he shouldn't be kept with other dogs because of aggression which yes, I adamantly denied, because he isn't dog aggressive. I never said he wasn't aggressive with the vet. All I can label it is fear aggression though.


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## kidkhmer

Hey....in the US can't you sue this person for doggy abuse ?


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## tierra nuestra

onyx'girl said:


> If a pup is of sound temperament and nerve they should be able to recover from a nose pop or a vet visit with no residual effects. I agree, I wouldn't have made a big deal of it in front of the dog, but that trainer would never have the opportunity to touch my dog ever again(same goes for a vet that isn't using proper manners/body language)


 :thumbup:


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## Rush

Imo, I'd stop using that trainer. Even if you have classes paid for, and even if the dog went in for a treat that was a little over the top, bopping a dog on the nose is not the way to react, and clearly- your dog was taken aback. If you believe the trust that was established has been corrupted, it's going to be really hard to rebuild, at least to the point where the trainer and the dog can have a fluid working relationship again. I see this a lot with the people I watch train, and a lot of the private owners I train for- over correcting, being harsh handed or even something as small as bopping a dog on the nose can be detrimental to the mentality of the dog. A lot of puppies would be shocked for a moment, but should recover, of course though not every dog has that "dream nerve" we can all preach about. If your's acted afraid it's a safe bet their relationship just went out the window. Switch trainers, that way you just have better piece of mind. It's a better idea to change trainers now and be able to work in an environment that isn't harboring animosity towards the trainer on your behalf, or on the dog's behalf. If you feel stressed, chances are your dog is going to be stressed, if your trainer is stressed on top of it and resorting to a more physical means of corrections (Even if it WAS just a nose bop) the environment isn't going to be a good place for your puppy. 

And imo, a good trainer knows how to keep their emotions in check. Dogs aren't always easy to work with, aren't always going to perform the way you want, and aren't always going to come from a background, or be raised in a way in which you agree with. If you're a good trainer, you'll learn to work with what you've been given, and keep your emotions in check to avoid becoming physical with any dog. Even if it was just a nose bop. Imo, if you're a good trainer, you've learned to find your "zen" when working with dogs and maintain calm confidence at all times. Lord knows, even when an over pushy puppy was using my arm as a chewtoy and I just wanted to kill her, keeping myself in check was the only way I got the dog and the owner (and my arm) through a training session. 

Best of Luck, Sorry for the novel


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## Good_Karma

kidkhmer said:


> Hey....in the US can't you sue this person for doggy abuse ?


Hey Khmer, don't make come over there and sue you for sarcasm!


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## Navah

I would have probably have said something and then demanded my money back for the remaining classes. I would advise people to not hit my dog and unless they want to get hit by me. I am HUGE into positive reinforcement and have only seen good with this method.

I suspect I am somewhat in the same boat as you. My puppy is very hard to train and while positive reinforcement is taking longer then every single dog I have ever trained in my life lol it’s getting there and we have a respect for each other. Her jumping was the worst. Sure I can smack her on the nose when she jumps up or kick her in the chest OR I can turn around a few times for a few min until she sits and get the same results without hurting her physically. It’s all patience, I’m not about immediate results it’s not necessary in the long run. 

Don’t listen to all this jazz about being spoil either, I get this all the time. So what? My dog IS spoiled, she is my best friend, I love her to death, she would do anything for me and I don’t see anyone else wagging their butt for me every time they see me lol. It’s a whole new doggy world out there, the alpha position is being debated and you can train AND spoiled your dog at the same time.

As for a bop on the nose, a dog’s nose is one of the most sensitive parts of the dog’s body and they have a ton of nerve endings there. I would suspect it would hurt more then people think because of that. IMO a dog’s nose is made for kissing only!

NEVER feel that you are overacting as a dog owner, never. Your dog can not talk, it is up to you to protect your dog from the world and I think you are a fabulous and loving owner to even start this thread. Your dog is lucky little girl. Sorry for the novel as well lol.


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## Zoeys mom

"Don’t listen to all this jazz about being spoil either, I get this all the time. So what? My dog IS spoiled, she is my best friend, I love her to death, she would do anything for me and I don’t see anyone else wagging their butt for me every time they see me lol".


I think that should be the quote of the week,lol I sure don't have anyone but my dogs wagging their butt for me when I come home....everyone else just wants something or has a complaint


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## PaddyD

Dog's nose is sensitive? Tell my dog that. She uses it to bop my hand for a pat. She uses it as a shovel to bury bones, rocky soil doesn't bother her a bit. She bops her own nose all the time without a wimper. She has a head like a stone.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Totally agree with Navah - 0nly spoiled pets live in my house. Guess I am lucky they are willing to share the space with us humans. LOL!


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## kiya

I don't think the trainer should have corrected your dog in that manner. Personally I would have been pissed, no one has the right to "hit" another persons dog. It is hard to judge something unless you witnessed the action in person so thats all I will say.
I've been with my trainer for 8 years I don't think I have ever seen her hit a dog, leash pop yes because there are instances when she will "ask" a handler for thier dog to demo something (most times she uses her own dog) or she will tell the handler what to do to correct a behavior.
There is an exercise you can do to help your dog with "treat delivery". In the livingroom (or where ever) I place my dish of training treats on a shelf, no matter where the dog is (or I am), after I "click" the behavior I asked for I go to the dish and give the treat. Sometimes my delivery is slow unless Im rewarding motion.


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## codmaster

A "bop" on the nose?

When we took the Herding instinct test a while ago the evaluator told the small group of GSD owners (about 8 of us there) that she would protect her sheep if our young dogs got too frisky with the 3 sheep in the corral. So we all said ok and the test began.

She took each dog in one at a time and around after the sheep they would run - and of course almost allof them got very excited in chasing and herding the sheep. First sheep that any of them had ever seen of course.So she has this very long flexible pole and as Baron and others are running around and around chasing the sheep, she had to swat them on the muzzle some times to slow them down.

Most of the dogs reacted to it quickly and did back off the sheep (1 or 2 actually came running back to momma (owner in the ring). My 18 mo stopped momentarily and then started chasing again -took a few bops to slow him down.

Didn't seem to bother him and his relation with the one who bopped him - he was just as friendly coming out of the ring with her as when he went in and vice versa. As a matter of fact I felt proud as heck when she said to me as we were coming out thru the gate "I LIKE that dog!". And he passed!

Point is that an *appropriate* "bop" on the muzzle never hurt a dog and might go a long way to quickly improving their behavior.


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## codmaster

JazzNScout said:


> I am big into positive reinforcement. I don't hit my dogs. The most dramatic I've gotten is smacking a newspaper against my leg to catch their attention if they've done or are doing something REALLY bad & are not listening.
> 
> Today in class, my puppy's trainer popped her on the nose with her hand. Layla is 8 months old, testing boundaries and can be both stubborn AND pushy. She wasn't doing anything particularly outrageous, just not going along with the game plan. I have never touched this dog in a punishing way -- never. She is very sensitive to being reprimanded by voice (I have a really funny video somewhere on here that shows this). Both Layla and I were taken aback. What I really hated was to see Layla's reaction -- she was really confused and didn't want to go near the trainer again. Her face looked like, "Enough of THIS...that hurt!"
> 
> I told the trainer I'd take over from there. It was clear she had ruined the dog wanting to be near her, violated the trust that had been built up, and Layla was done working with her.
> 
> Am I overreacting because she's my little baby? Or was this way out of line? The trainer later alluded to Layla being a tad spoiled. Well, she is, yes. Not quite sure that's the way to "cure" it, though.


It would depend a lot on any previous relationship that I and my dog had with the stranger. Had she handled the dog a lot before?

And also what she was doing to elicit that reaction. And also of course - how hard a "Bop" was it?

Some dogs are very "hard" when it comes to handling a correction - meaning they can take it and go on with training. Others are much "softer" and react very much to a correction. the correction level has to be appropriate to the dog and their temperament to be effective.

Sort of like people - a good manager or coach will know that they can't yell at some folks while others a loud explanation will work most effectively to improve them. Culture also plays a role - military is very different place than most commercial organizations.


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## Sunstreaked

_"Don’t listen to all this jazz about being spoil either, I get this all the time. So what? My dog IS spoiled, she is my best friend, I love her to death, she would do anything for me and I don’t see anyone else wagging their butt for me every time they see me lol".

_I'm hearing this already, too. The looks that are exchanged by my mother to my sister and back. 

Somehow they seem to forget that the DH and I raised two kids who are mannered, responsible, have an amazing work ethic, and who are smart as heck. I "spoiled" them too. 

Those kids - and this dog - work for what they get (NILIF for the dog) and I'm not surprised to find out I did this for the kids too - although I didn't know it was called that! 

What I'm going for is consistency and fairness. Either shoes are off limits always or they can be chewed any time. No wishy-washy conditions. 

The hubby and I do NOT hit the dog. This is our rule for our dog. 

She is a baby and learning what is acceptable and what is not. I would rather repeat a word and a hand signal 1,000 times than make her afraid of my touch. 

I know others raise their dogs how they want to, but this works for us.


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## CaliBoy

I would finish out the lessons you have, but just tell the trainer not to physically strike your dog, on the nose or any other body part.


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## pache11

I would have asked the trainer about his/her style before ever starting classes and ask about their training methods. Hindsight is always 20/20 and good research about a trainer and their methods go along way. Unmet expectations result when people don't clearly express those expectations and don't plan for difficulties that can possibly result. 

Each dog is different in the way they experience corrections. Positive reinforcement techniques are great in the ways of training dogs with the proper motivation especially in comparison with the "old school" hard correction methods that I learned when I was just a child myself. A pure positive method is just as unbalanced as the old hard school corrections. A dog needs correction in certain situations and will learn how to cope with stressful and dangerous situations better if some correction techniques are used. The old saying that one should give 3 positives for every negative still holds alot of weight for children and even more so for dog training, more positives and less correction. Learning how to correctly motivate and channel our dogs energy is the key.

My dog, Maggie, would crumble if I were ever to use certain verbal corrections. The word "BAD" even used in casual conversation with other people had disasterous effects with my GSD. She was soft when it came to verbal corrections and the opposite when it came to physcial corrections. In fact physical corrections did little or nothing to affect her behavior. She taught me how to positive train dogs better then any other due to her tempermant. Corrections were usally only needed and reserved for times that affected her/others safety and even then moderate in nature. A bop on her nose would have been barely noticed and most likely even less aknowledged. Every dog is different in this respect, just as every child is different. Some are easy and mindful and some are independant and challenge our every move. Flexibility, kindness, love, and correction build a temper into our and our dogs lives that is deperately needed. Moving to any extreme brings a brittle weakness that will eventually show in a situation that we or our dogs don't understand or know how to cope.


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## codmaster

Minnieski said:


> Well, was it a tap or did she really smack her? I don't ever hit my dogs, but sometimes I give them a tap on the nose with a "leave it" if they try to nose in on my food.


Of course! That is a reasonable thing to do.

Or a little pop with a finger or two when he grabs a treat too hard!

Good gracious - this is a K9 type dog we are talking about - do you folks really think that a little "Bop" is going to scar them for life?

If you do think that, just imagine how scarred they will become mentally the first time a "bad guy" whacks them with a little stick in Sch training. 

Or what about if another dog happens to bump them while playing a little too hard?

Or what if a sheep happens to run into them while herding?


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## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Have you ever worked with a correction-sensitive dog? My GSD is now fear aggressive as a result of the VET manhandling him too rough. This would have no doubt gotten a bite from him. Dogs DON'T always recover from this, and they shouldn't have to.


That is terrible! - I imagine the vet must have really abused your dog to have that bad a reaction. He must have been just a little puppy.

Sounds like a whole lot worse than just a "Bop" on the nose!


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## codmaster

Rusty_212 said:


> Well this sounds as if a new thread should be started: How many owners slap their dogs?


 
ME! But only when he bites me! And he thinks it is great fun so then comes back at me harder and so we go!


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## codmaster

Good_Karma said:


> Wonder how the parents on this board would feel about a teacher smacking their child's bottom in front of them? Regardless of the child's behavior, it is not the place of the teacher to lay hands on your child.
> 
> I know that dogs are not children, but I see a lot of similarities between the two scenarios.


Should just give the 7 mo puppy a timeout!


----------



## codmaster

JazzNScout said:


> The trainer was showing me how to do something. After Layla did what she was told, she went for the treat with gumption. She didn't bite the trainer. Yes, she wants instant gratification (something I have mistakenly reinforced). The problem is she had done what she was supposed to and she clearly related finishing the command with being swatted. She didn't associate her going for the treat with the swat; therefore, she wouldn't repeat the command for the trainer and instead kept walking away from her like she was scared.
> 
> Not to mention (again) I never touch my dog in a punishing manner and she's _very _sensitive to being talked to in a certain tone.
> I don't think my puppy is permanently damaged from this, but the punishment had a negative effect rather than a positive one.
> Without reacting with drama or coddling my dog, I simply said, "Let me try it with her."
> 
> We have 3 more classes we have paid for. I'm going to insist me or my husband be the only ones handling the dog during the remainder of this session. I was planning on taking her elsewhere for more advanced obedience, anyway.


 
So your 8 mo puppy grabbed the treat from the trainers fingers? If that was the case, then the dog deserved a little "bop" on the nose. Doesn't sound like the puppy would be emotionally scarred from that, and just maybe would have learned a little bit about not "chomping" the hand that holds the treat!

But as many have said here, if you don't agree with the trainer's methods; then just go to another trainer.

Just out of my own curiosity, how would you have handled your own puppy grabbing a treat from your fingers? Or maybe you think that is ok? - your dog, your right to do so.

Did you ever warn your trainer (or others) that your dog grabbed treats and would bite their fingers? Before he did so, I mean?

That would have eased the situation and your dog would probably not got "bopped".


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> The vet said that he shouldn't be kept with other dogs because of aggression which yes, I adamantly denied, because he isn't dog aggressive. I never said he wasn't aggressive with the vet. All I can label it is fear aggression though.


 
Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster

Interesting topic - really shows how we think of our dogs! 

Sure does stir a lot of emotion, though.

Wonder what some folks would think of the Drill Instructor if their "baby" went into the Army or Marine Corp. and saw how they "abuse" their skin kids? Heh! Heh!


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## MrsWoodcock

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, I wouldn't have made a big deal of it in front of the dog


Agreed. In my experiance, the way you react can heighten and make a situation more damaging to a dog mentally, depending on how the handler reacts, and depending on the severity of the situation at hand.

Bop on nose vs. dog attacking your dog


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## JazzNScout

codmaster said:


> So your 8 mo puppy grabbed the treat from the trainers fingers? If that was the case, then the dog deserved a little "bop" on the nose. Doesn't sound like the puppy would be emotionally scarred from that, and just maybe would have learned a little bit about not "chomping" the hand that holds the treat!
> 
> But as many have said here, if you don't agree with the trainer's methods; then just go to another trainer.
> 
> Just out of my own curiosity, how would you have handled your own puppy grabbing a treat from your fingers? Or maybe you think that is ok? - your dog, your right to do so.
> 
> Did you ever warn your trainer (or others) that your dog grabbed treats and would bite their fingers? Before he did so, I mean?
> 
> That would have eased the situation and your dog would probably not got "bopped".


Good grief. First, let me clarify AGAIN that I did _not_ freak out when the trainer did this, ok? We went on with the lesson, but I took over.

I also never said or indicated that my puppy was emotionally scarred from this incident. I _do_ believe the trust she had in the trainer was at the least harmed. She's been working with this trainer since she was 16 weeks old. 

lol -- No, my puppy is not allowed to grab treats from my fingers. A simple, "easy!" or "gentle" stops it right away. If it were to be worse, I'd do a "shooshing" noise or even a loud "OUCH!" myself. She is very sensitive to voice corrections. 

Do you REALLY think people should warn dog trainers that puppies sometimes go for treats with gumption? Seriously? :crazy: Again, this woman has worked with my dog for 4 months now.

P.S. I'm not even sure my puppy bit the woman's fingers. What I saw was the face-leap forward toward the treat. I think by Response #105, my puppy will have had the trainer by the neck and people will be yelling at me that I should have known I had an aggressive dog! lol! :rofl:


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## codmaster

JazzNScout said:


> .........................
> lol -- No, my puppy is not allowed to grab treats from my fingers. A simple, "easy!" or "gentle" stops it right away. If it were to be worse, I'd do a "shooshing" noise or even a loud "OUCH!" myself. She is very sensitive to voice corrections.
> 
> *But she did grab the trainers fingers, didn't she? Or are you saying that the trainer "bopped" her nose for no reason at all? Guess the voice corrections don't work to teach her not to grab? Or maybe I am missing something?*
> 
> Do you REALLY think people should warn dog trainers that puppies sometimes go for treats with gumption? Seriously? :crazy: Again, this woman has worked with my dog for 4 months now. *Evidently your trainer needed the warning, maybe? Or maybe just a remeinder that puppies sometimes forget what they do very well at home but not in a spot with more distractions and/or excitement?*
> 
> P.S. I'm not even sure my puppy bit the woman's fingers. What I saw was the face-leap forward toward the treat. I think by Response #105, my puppy will have had the trainer by the neck and people will be yelling at me that I should have known I had an aggressive dog! lol! :rofl:


Why not just ask the trainer what your dog did? Like "did she get you?". Then you would have a better reason why the trainer did what she did. 

If she did happen to "chomp" a little too hard in her probable excitement - would you be more accepting of the trainers action or would you feel she should have done nothing even if she did happen to get her finger?

After all, if you have been going to her for so long, you must have thought that she was at least ok up until now or you would not have kept going to her classes.

Unless you were totally upset with the "Bop" on your dog's muzzle, I think you should have let the trainer continue to handle the dog and get to where she could give her lots of praise and affection so the dog would not over react to a little bump. (I am assuming that the trainers action was not a serious "Whack" but merely a little unexpected bump, of course). Would have been better to let the dog and trainer work it out so the dog couldsee that there was nothing bad about to happen and they were still friends.

BTW, I have done the muzzle "bop" with a single finger to my friends GSD when we are together and I give him a treat and he grabs it. One little touch with a finger on the muzzle and an "Gentle" and what a difference in the next treat and the way he takes it. no resentment or upset either - just a finger with no teeth marks!!! LOL


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## Jelpy

My trainer at the oft slurred petsmart stood up on the first day and said rule number one was that you NEVER hit your dog. 

Jelpy and the Mesquite Mafia


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## PaddyD

Jelpy said:


> My trainer at the oft slurred petsmart stood up on the first day and said rule number one was that you NEVER hit your dog.
> 
> Jelpy and the Mesquite Mafia


I would never slur petsmart.


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## Rerun

JazzNScout said:


> lol -- No, my puppy is not allowed to grab treats from my fingers. A simple, "easy!" or "gentle" stops it right away.


With no disrespect intended, it sounds like this has been an ongoing issue since you talk about voice corrections, so apparently your vebal corrections aren't actually stopping the problem. It temporarily halts the behavior, but since it's reoccuring there is no long term training occuring.

I would have bopped my puppy on the nose for doing that too. My 5 mo old doesn't even snatch for treats during training, nor do any of my adults. But if you don't like the trainer, it is certainly your right to move onto a different one. You aren't going to change your trainers opinion on training, but I certainly wouldn't be up in arms over a bop on the nose for treat snatching.


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## JazzNScout

A lot of assumptions are happening here, which I know is easy on a forum like this, so I'm going to leave this thread alone now, as I'm repeating myself now. I appreciate the responses, and I have decided, as I mentioned several responses back, to continue with this session (a few more classes), handle my dog myself and go elsewhere for further training. I train with no physical punishment, be it a bop on the nose or a smack on the butt -- so in reality, it doesn't matter what my dog did or didn't do; in my view, the response was not appropriate and had a negative rather than a positive effect.


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## s14roller

It seems like a pretty simple case of personal preference...just like how parents punish their kids. 

For me, I don't see the issue...the dog got a bop (dad used to give the back of my head a slap) and would be fine with it, but can see how it might upset someone.


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## codmaster

JazzNScout said:


> A lot of assumptions are happening here, which I know is easy on a forum like this, so I'm going to leave this thread alone now, as I'm repeating myself now. I appreciate the responses, and I have decided, as I mentioned several responses back, to continue with this session (a few more classes), handle my dog myself and go elsewhere for further training. I train with no physical punishment, be it a bop on the nose or a smack on the butt -- so in reality, it *doesn't matter what my dog did or didn't do*; in my view, the response was not appropriate and had a negative rather than a positive effect.


*It doesn't matter what your dog did?????*

Now you do sound like some parents whom I know!!!!!!!!

Do you ever give your dog's leash a small tug?

Hope you can find a suitable trainer when you leave the one who "bopped" your puppy?


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## onyx'girl

a 7 month old pup is what it is...a bop on the nose will teach it what? Sorry but there are plenty other methods to choose from to teach taking rewards without snapping or snatching. Why is the comparison to children brought into this...I'm all for NILIF with my dogs and kids(I have teenagers, so NILIF is huge for me with them, but I don't bop my kids noses to get compliance. It just isn't a good way to "teach" anything except distrust and fear.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> a 7 month old pup is what it is...a bop on the nose will teach it what? .......


Obviously, it will teach them very quickly not to snap at a treat. 

Works very well along with a verbal command and I really truly believe that a little pop on the muzzle with 1 or 2 fingers is not going to destroy a GSD puppy with a normal temperament.

OTOH, if you have one with a temperament which you think would be adversly affected by such a physical correction, then don't do it. just tell them not to snap so much. Your dog, your method.


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## FG167

I bop my dogs. I also smack their butts. I've also done both of those things as part of play. I pound their sides, I grab their faces, I smack their butts as they butt-tuck around, pinch their butts etc etc I'm extremely physical with my dogs in play so when I bop them with a couple of fingers it's more to grab attention and show "no" than to do anything with pain - I KNOW it doesn't hurt them. I also do NILIF and I'm very into positive reinforcement training. I think the type of training you accept is personal preference. I am very picky on who I allowed to "bop" my dogs and why. If Madix nipped someone's fingers taking a treat, I would be totally ok with a "bop". If they were waving it around having him chase it and then he did, then I would not want a "bop" but a verbal. Again all personal preference. I think attitude is more important than the actual physicality of a punishment. I am MUCH rougher on my dogs in play than when they're punished but boy they can tell by my attitude when they're in trouble. Often all I have to do is frown at Madix.


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## Konotashi

I think that if she took the treat a little too roughly, the trainer could have taken the treat out of reach. That's what we did with our dogs. We taught them that they didn't get the treat until they took it gently from us.

I don't know that the dog will associate the pop on the nose with taking the treat too rough.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

JazzNScout said:


> A lot of assumptions are happening here, which I know is easy on a forum like this, so I'm going to leave this thread alone now, as I'm repeating myself now. I appreciate the responses, and I have decided, as I mentioned several responses back, to continue with this session (a few more classes), handle my dog myself and go elsewhere for further training. I train with no physical punishment, be it a bop on the nose or a smack on the butt -- so in reality, it doesn't matter what my dog did or didn't do; in my view, the response was not appropriate and had a negative rather than a positive effect.


Zoiks! I only read the last couple of pages - :wild: - and understand what you are saying. 

I know a trainer who does this with her dogs but doesn't do it with others. Because she knows other people don't like it.


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## Navah

JazzNScout said:


> A lot of assumptions are happening here, which I know is easy on a forum like this, so I'm going to leave this thread alone now, as I'm repeating myself now. I appreciate the responses, and I have decided, as I mentioned several responses back, to continue with this session (a few more classes), handle my dog myself and go elsewhere for further training. I train with no physical punishment, be it a bop on the nose or a smack on the butt -- so in reality, it doesn't matter what my dog did or didn't do; in my view, the response was not appropriate and had a negative rather than a positive effect.


I agree with you totally, even if the trainer’s whole hand was in the dog’s mouth she had NO right to bop your dog. A good trainer should expect a nip here and there especially with puppies. I don’t know why people are being so judgmental and making so many assumptions. It seems to me if all of us positive reinforcement sat there and criticized them for using physical force they would get upset as well. We shouldn’t have to defend ourselves about feeling upset over something that happened to our dog. Int he end, no matter what training we use (to an extent) we all love our dogs =).


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## codmaster

FG167 said:


> I bop my dogs. I also smack their butts. I've also done both of those things as part of play. I pound their sides, I grab their faces, I smack their butts as they butt-tuck around, pinch their butts etc etc I'm extremely physical with my dogs in play so when I bop them with a couple of fingers it's more to grab attention and show "no" than to do anything with pain - I KNOW it doesn't hurt them. I also do NILIF and I'm very into positive reinforcement training. I think the type of training you accept is personal preference. I am very picky on who I allowed to "bop" my dogs and why. If Madix nipped someone's fingers taking a treat, I would be totally ok with a "bop". If they were waving it around having him chase it and then he did, then I would not want a "bop" but a verbal. Again all personal preference. I think attitude is more important than the actual physicality of a punishment. I am MUCH rougher on my dogs in play than when they're punished but boy they can tell by my attitude when they're in trouble. Often all I have to do is frown at Madix.


Well said!


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## ilivenanigloo

I'd smack the trainer, demand my money back and leave! My sister used to work at a vet and a cop brought his GSD in. He actually told my sister that the way to train a GSD was pop them on the nose!


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## AgileGSD

Sounds like your dog needs some work on impulse control. These videos explain how to teach impulse control with food and with "crate games". A 7 month old puppy is certainly old enough to be taught impulse control.

Food:





Crate Games:


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## RudeDogTraining

Some people have the idea that when GSDs hit sexual maturity (6-9 months), then they need a heavy hand or heavy correction or they will take advantage of you. Granted, yes they need to understand that what they are doing is unacceptable (which is where collar/verbal corrections would come in), however, should NEVER be hit. I don't care what kind of trainer you are or how long you've been training. you NEVER hit the dog. It's a great way to break any positive association the dog has with either a trainer or another handler. Even Cesar-freggin-Millan does his little two finger poke thing to "mimic a nip" is garbage. You are not a dog. Don't try to mimic dog behavior by "immitation nips".


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## Chicagocanine

Iletthedogout said:


> Can you describe "correction-sensitive"? Maybe you can describe the '"manhandling" vet and how it damaged your dog as well.
> 
> In terms of recovery, I'm assuming that the dog was not physically harmed or suffered long-term psychological/emotional damage due to a single "pop on the nose." In which case, the dog might have been able to refocus with the work and continue with the training.


I had a dog who had a long-term reaction due to a single correction by a trainer. My Golden was very sensitive and "soft". This was a long time ago, at the time most training classes in the area used choke/slip collars. We were taking a class as a refresher. When I gave collar corrections to her they were VERY light, slight pressure where it was mostly the sound she was reacting to. The trainer in the class asked to use my dog to demonstrate the recall. I said sure since my dog already knew the recall and was only taking the class to brush up on her training. Well she put the dog in a stay and walked away, then called her. She hesitated for a second and looked over at me (unsure of going to a 'stranger' instead of me) and the trainer gave a very strong jerk of the leash, strong enough to move my 65 lb dog forward against her will. Yes, she came to her after that (although she did several more pops because my dog was coming slowly). From then on, my dog who had no problem with a good, straight recall before would always crab sideways on the recall. Instead of coming straight in, she would walk sideways and come in very crooked. It took me many many months of training to fix that.
I should have left the class then, but I went on with it and just didn't let the trainer handle my dog after that... This trainer also gave a Lab owner a piece of hosing and told her to pop the dog on the nose whenever he barked (I saw the dog several months later in the vet's office, still barking at everything) and told a small/toy breed's owner that when she gave a collar correction the dog's front legs should lift off the ground.


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## wyominggrandma

I see the "manhandling" side a bit different than some owners as I have been bitten numerous times while working 40 years in vet clinics, all due to the owner stating" my dog minds me perfectly and won't bite you".. Hogwash.
Sometimes vets or vet techs HAVE to "manhandle" your dog because you can't or won't and you are not the one to get bit. We are, because we are the one doing things to your sweet little snookems and little snookems doesn't like it one bit.
You might be able to softly tell your dog to stop trying at bite me because I want to take your temp or because you have to be given a shot, but snookems isn't listening and only sees us as the bad guys. Do you know how many dogs are brought into the vet being told" its okay , its okay poor baby poor baby, the mean doctor won't hurt you? Believe me, it happens all the time. That is why most vet offices will not let the person hold their own dog for procedures anymore and the majority have signs in the clinic saying that. Just because your dog is perfect and minds you, just because your dog is never given a physical punishment, that doesn't mean that all of us that work in vet clinics have to sit back and be bit when we try to physically hold your dogs muzzle to look in the ear, or hold a leg out for a preanesthetic shot or clip nails. 
Training your dog with positive reinforcement is great and more power to you, BUt make sure your dog can and will take physical restraint from a vet or vet tech without biting, because sometimes if they are never taught that a hand can hold their head or face or muzzle or leg or whatever, they will act up and possible bite.
We had a guy come in with a cute GSD puppy the other day. Needed its nails cut and he boasted that his dog had never been touched "with a mean hand", he did everything by word. Real proud of himself and was great until we tried to hold his foot for clipping. The dog went balastic and it took two vet techs and the vet to hold this dog down to clip his nails. The whole time the guy was standing there saying" its okay buddy".. No it wasn't okay for the dog to be stupid, but he was telling him it was okay.
Train you dog however it works for you, but remember at some point the dog will have to be handled by someone else and needs to learn that. My puppy is touched, muzzle held, rubbed all over daily by any number of people that i trust. She may not like it, but knows that anyone can touch her and handler her and she is happy to see everyone.


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## EMarie59

s14roller said:


> It seems like a pretty simple case of personal preference...just like how parents punish their kids.
> 
> For me, I don't see the issue...the dog got a bop (dad used to give the back of my head a slap) and would be fine with it, but can see how it might upset someone.


So, if your Dad was standing by you and you maybe got a bit rude with a stranger, and the stranger slapped you, how do you think your Dad would have reacted? What YOUR Dad may have done with you is one thing. This is not about the owner of the dog bopping him.
Aside from that, many moons ago I remember with obedience class with Duchess that you NEVER hit on the nose but if they are getting nippy and saying NO is not doing it, then to tap UNDER the mouth so they do not get hand shy.
Everyone has their views on both sides, and I can see where both are coming from, BUT with that said...
If ANYONE and I mean ANYONE EVER bops MY dog in front of me? They can guarantee that my IMMEDIATE reaction will be to BOP their head, and trust me, it will be more than just a bop. :angryfire:
Hmm, I am about to meet a trainer early next week with Chance. I need to let her know ahead of time how I am in regards to that...


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## codmaster

This discussion reminds me of when I took my then 1 1/2 yo male GSD to his herding instinct test. The tester told us (group of about 7 GSD owners) that she might have to correct the dogs if they got too rough with her three sheep that were in the corral to be the test herd. And she had a long limber stick that she showed us.

Sure enough a few of the dogs got a bit too enthusiastic with the chasing (herding!) and she "popped" them on the muzzle a few times.

What a difference in the dogs reactions - all the way from just slowing down (my dog Baron did this) to a look of shock and then running behind the owner (who was also in the ring standing there watching their dog be handled by the tester).

Baron needed a couple of "touches" each time that he got to herding the sheep as he really did get into the herding and chasing the sheep. But he didn't resent it or get upset as he remained VERY friendly with the instructor/tester woman.

As long as it is a reasonable correction, I don't have a problem with any instructer correcting my dog if she/he is actually handling him at the time.


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## EMarie59

codmaster said:


> Baron needed a couple of "touches" each time that he got to herding the sheep as he really did get into the herding and chasing the sheep. But he didn't resent it or get upset as he remained VERY friendly with the instructor/tester woman.
> 
> As long as it is a reasonable correction, I don't have a problem with any instructer correcting my dog if she/he is actually handling him at the time.


Totally see your point. Seems that the trainer also had explained his/her self to start off with and what may have to happen.

In regards to Chance, he was from an abusive home and I believe, and granted, I could be wrong, (but I DON"T CARE) that any kind of physical hand correction would hinder him, not help.
I still do not see in regards to what was going on with the pup where it warranted that type of correction.


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## GSD07

wyominggrandma said:


> The dog went balastic and it took two vet techs and the vet to hold this dog down to clip his nails.


 And you, your fellow tech and the vet successfully created a very big problem for the owner to overcome. That's why everyone on this forum will tell new owners not to take there pup to the vet for nail clipping. I wish you stopped, forgot about your $14 for the service, and sent the owner home with the instructions to start handling the puppy's paws. I hope that owner found a different vet.


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## codmaster

GSD07 said:


> And you, your fellow tech and the vet successfully created a very big problem for the owner to overcome. That's why everyone on this forum will tell new owners not to take there pup to the vet for nail clipping. I wish you stopped, forgot about your $14 for the service, and sent the owner home with the instructions to start handling the puppy's paws. I hope that owner found a different vet.


Very well said! They should have just stopped - although that probably would have upset some owners as well.


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## codmaster

"Today in class, my puppy's trainer popped her on the nose with her hand."

It might help if you could better define what you meant by "popped" - i.e. was it a little finger pop with one finger OR maybe a full swing of the arm and a chop like a karate chop OR a punch into the nose itself. that difference would make a great deal of difference to my reaction to an instructor doing something to my dog. Also maybe explain what the dog was actually doing - i.e. it would make a big difference to me if the dog was maybe growling at the instructor or at something else or just a slow sit or maybe heeling a little wide.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

OP has already bowed out of the thread. It's an older thread and sometimes I wish we would just Leerburg those when they get revived (lock).


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## Jax08

Oh I don't know Jean. I think there might still be a lesson in this one given the one post.


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## Jax08

wyominggrandma said:


> *Sometimes vets or vet techs HAVE to "manhandle" your dog *because you can't or won't and you are not the one to get bit. ...
> 
> *Training your dog with positive reinforcement is great and more power to you, *B*Ut make sure your dog can and will take physical restraint from a vet or vet tech without biting,* because sometimes if they are never taught that a hand can hold their head or face or muzzle or leg or whatever, they will act up and possible bite.
> We had a guy come in with a cute GSD puppy the other day. *Needed its nails cut and he boasted that his dog had never been touched "with a mean hand", *he did everything by word. Real proud of himself and was great until we tried to hold his foot for clipping. The dog went balastic and it took* two vet techs and the vet to hold this dog down *to clip his nails. The whole time the guy was standing there saying" its okay buddy"..* No it wasn't okay for the dog to be stupid,* but he was telling him it was okay.
> Train you dog however it works for you, but remember at some point the dog will have to be handled by someone else and needs to learn that. My puppy is touched, muzzle held, rubbed all over daily by any number of people that i trust. She may not like it, but knows that anyone can touch her and handler her and she is happy to see everyone.


This is not in defense of the owners who say their dog won't bite but the blame is not entirely on the owner in this example. This is a perfect example of why your vet and the techs are NOT trainers or behaviorist. Positive vs negative training does not have a single thing to do with teaching a puppy to be restrained. It is all about training, just training..period.

The puppy was not stupid. The puppy was anxious and scared.  Being restrained is not natural to them. This could have been a perfect time to teach the owner how to teach his puppy to accept someone playing with its feet. Instead the puppy was manhandled and had a terrible experience at the vet's office.

It was also a perfect time for your office to help the puppy have a pleasant experience at the office. There are many vet's out there that can cut an unwilling dog's nails without a fuss. Perhaps, your office also need some training in how to handle animals without excessive force instead of laying all the blame on the owner and a puppy.


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## Castlemaid

Agree with you Jax and GSD07, and that is one reason I won't let vet techs take my dogs for a procedure without me being there. 

Keeta is exellent with people - but she has limits. A few years back I took her in for urine leakage, and they wanted a urine sample in case it was UTI. I let the vet tech take her in the back, not really aware of how they get a sample. When she brought her back to me, the vet tech was in shock: Your dog growled at me when I was doing the procedure! she said all surprised. Well, I found out that "the procedure" was putting her up on a table, lying her down on her back while being restrained, and using a needle and syringe to poke through her belly into the bladder for a urine sample! Well, no WONDER she growled!!! What the heck did they expect??? And if all she did was growl, then I'm proud of my girl for her steady and solid temperament considering the situation. I could have given them a sample so easy!!! Just take her outside, and she would have marked, guaranteed!

The whole situation was so wrong - I stopped using that vet clinic later on, just a lot of little stuff that bugged me, and so far at the new clinic, no issues with me restraining my dog, and the people there do not all act like they are afraid of big dogs. If they want to take my dog into the back area, I ask to come too - they have no problem with that. 

Just because someone else has a dog that acts up at the vets, that does not mean that you can descriminate against me and assume that I can't get my dogs to listen and mind and accept handling with me there.


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## MikeyMerciless

You're not overreacting at all. Like DJEtzel said, I would have popped the trainer in the nose as well...


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## Jax08

Geesh Lucia..they didn't sedate her first? Jax had to have a sterile sample and they kept her for the day and sedated her before taking it. Ouch! Having a needle stuck into an organ but be excruciating!


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## wyominggrandma

I am a trainer, groomer, have been showing dogs for years and years and excuse me but the owner INSISTED we finish trimming the dogs nails. I tell people with new puppies to spend lots and lots touching and rubbing their feet, just like I tried to explain to this man that is what he needed to do with his dog. He demanded we finish the dogs nails. 
This forum is nothing but a bunch of people who feel they know better than the person standing there or being there or anything else and don't even give a chance for anyone to say anything. I didnot feel the need to get into a three page long explanation of what the owner wanted and why we did what we did, I was trying to say that WE are the ones who get bit and chewed up when YOUR dog will not tolorate being touched. EXCUSE me if I didn't going into total explanation, I figured some people might just try to understand what I was trying to say instead of blasting me and my vet. YOU don't know me, YOU don't know what I do everyday or everyweekend so YOU do not have the right to tell me what a horrible vet tech I am. EVERYTHING with dogs is not cut and dry, not a text book case. Obviously if one dares to post to this forum, the majority will trash them or tell them their opinions.
See ya, too bad your opinions make people leave or not want to post.


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## codmaster

wyominggrandma said:


> I am a trainer, groomer, have been showing dogs for years and years and excuse me but the owner INSISTED we finish trimming the dogs nails. I tell people with new puppies to spend lots and lots touching and rubbing their feet, just like I tried to explain to this man that is what he needed to do with his dog. He demanded we finish the dogs nails.
> This forum is nothing but a bunch of people who feel they know better than the person standing there or being there or anything else and don't even give a chance for anyone to say anything. I didnot feel the need to get into a three page long explanation of what the owner wanted and why we did what we did, I was trying to say that WE are the ones who get bit and chewed up when YOUR dog will not tolorate being touched. *EXCUSE me* if I didn't going into total explanation, I figured some people might just try to understand what I was trying to say instead of blasting me and my vet. YOU don't know me, YOU don't know what I do everyday or everyweekend so YOU do not have the right to tell me what a horrible vet tech I am. EVERYTHING with dogs is not cut and dry, not a text book case. Obviously if one dares to post to this forum, the majority will trash them or tell them their opinions.
> See ya, too bad your opinions make people leave or not want to post.


*You are excused.*

If you look at it rationally, there was not really a lot of background in what was originally posted so people had to make some assumptions and maybe they have had bad vets and/or techs who *did* mistreat their dogs.

I know I will not let my dog go "in the back" any more at the vets without me there.


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## Jax08

Overreact much? 

If you want to leave because somebody disagreed with you, then you need to grow a thicker skin. We are just as entitled to our opinions, given the information you provided, as you are of yours. I don't think you hurt anyone's feelings with your above rant.

Nobody said you are a horrible vet tech. You never once said that the owner demanded you finish the nails, nor that you tried to explain to the guy what he needed to do. Those are pretty vital pieces of information in your story you neglected to put in there. And, the vet can legally deny to do any service as they see fit. The responsibility is still not 100% on the owner in this case. There are many vets and techs out there that can handle a puppy without three people holding it down.

And sorry...but how the **** do you know what any of us do for a living or what experience any of us have with animals?


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## Castlemaid

Jax08 said:


> Geesh Lucia..they didn't sedate her first? Jax had to have a sterile sample and they kept her for the day and sedated her before taking it. Ouch! Having a needle stuck into an organ but be excruciating!


No kidding! I was incredulous!!! And the vet tech was shocked that Keeta growled!! 
And the thing is that it is ridiculously easy to get a sample from Keeta because she marks territory - 

I take her outside, she sniffs, she pees - voila, a fresh sample! That is exactly how it went recently. The vet just asked me how hard would it be for me to get a sample - not hard at all, I said, I'll be right back! and I was. A bit less intrusive than the other method. 

wyominggrandma, I'm sure you have to deal with a lot of doozies in your job, and the majority of pet owners are really clueless, so I can see your side of the story. 

Then there is the other side of the story where a vet tech tries to take a urine sample from my dog by restraining her and then gets upset that she growls . . . this after me having spent a LOT of time getting my adopted dog used to handling - I'm just glad that she has a good enough temperament that it did not cause an issues with further vet visits - and if there had been, I'm sure it would have been my fault!


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## wyominggrandma

Yep, I am posting again.Um, I never said I knew what you are anyone did for a living or experience with animals, what I said is nobody knows what I do. And since you were not there, you have no idea how bad this puppy was being not that is matters to anyone on this forum. I posted something and immediately was told how we probably ruined the puppy, needed schooling in handling animals and that since none of us were trainers that we ruined the puppy. Overreact much?
Guess you need to be an expert to post to this forum. Too bad, its a very informative site and alot of folks have posted informative comments to a few questions I have asked. I posted on this thread because I have been involved with the "other " side of trying to work with sick, injured or just plain spoiled dogs. Heck my dogs are spoiled, but they will lay on the table and have most any type of vet work and grooming work done on them without issue because they have been taught by ME to deal with life and the unpleasant sides of it. As show dogs, they are taught to have strangers go over them, to have their testicles touched, their mouths opened, and have hands go all over their bodies, all the time wagging their tails. I have put obedience titles on dogs as well as many conformation championships on many different breeds. So, yes I feel experienced enough to comment on this thread and I did.
Now I know to keep my mouth shut and my hands off the keys so the many many experts won't have to waste their time telling me what a mean unknowledgeable vet tech I am. Oh yea, guess a groomer, trainer and handler needs to be added to the list.


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## Jax08

As I stated in my first post, I was NOT defending the people that say their dogs won't bite when they will.

I love my vets. I brought a 105# rescue in for vet check and neuter before sending him on to the rescue. The vet leaned over him while he was laying on the floor. He growled with a small sneer. She calmly stood up and said "My fault, I leaned over him" I dropped him off a few days later for his neuter. They all loved him. 

My former vet stalked into the room with the tech. The tech grabbed Sierra's leash, attached to a prong collar, and drug her across the room before I could blink. Then was upset when she growled at them. Go figure. Insisted she had to have a muzzle on because she was dangerous. Not nearly as dangerous as I was about to become. Thanks for hurting my dog and creating a problem that wasn't there before.

Banshee gets muzzled as soon as we come into the room. She is terrified and backs right under the chair we're sitting in. 90% our fault not socializing like we should have but something happened at a vet's office that we've never been able to figure out.

Gotta be able to read the animals body language and take responsibility for the actions that cause animals to react. To many techs, and vets, out there choose to use force. That's just reality.


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## Jax08

Get over it. Really. You left out VERY IMPORTANT DETAILS. And you are reading insults into the comments that aren't even there. Maybe you need to go take a long, hot bath and relax.



wyominggrandma said:


> Yep, I am posting again.Um, I never said I knew what you are anyone did for a living or experience with animals, what I said is nobody knows what I do. And since you were not there, you have no idea how bad this puppy was being not that is matters to anyone on this forum. I posted something and immediately was told how we probably ruined the puppy, needed schooling in handling animals and that since none of us were trainers that we ruined the puppy. Overreact much?
> Guess you need to be an expert to post to this forum. Too bad, its a very informative site and alot of folks have posted informative comments to a few questions I have asked. I posted on this thread because I have been involved with the "other " side of trying to work with sick, injured or just plain spoiled dogs. Heck my dogs are spoiled, but they will lay on the table and have most any type of vet work and grooming work done on them without issue because they have been taught by ME to deal with life and the unpleasant sides of it. As show dogs, they are taught to have strangers go over them, to have their testicles touched, their mouths opened, and have hands go all over their bodies, all the time wagging their tails. I have put obedience titles on dogs as well as many conformation championships on many different breeds. So, yes I feel experienced enough to comment on this thread and I did.
> Now I know to keep my mouth shut and my hands off the keys so the many many experts won't have to waste their time telling me what a mean unknowledgeable vet tech I am. Oh yea, guess a groomer, trainer and handler needs to be added to the list.


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## wyominggrandma

We never in our practice grab a dog and drag it anywhere. Not part of the way we handle animals. I have spent years working with the vets ( yes the vets)and the other techs explaining how to approach dogs, how to hold them, how to handle them. I give training advice on the spot, I teach new owners how to housebreak, how to trim nails, how to hold them, touch them, all that is not what I get paid for, but I do it.
When the macho guy or gal comes in with her very unsocialized dog that is growling, pulling the owner around, being a jerk, then yes, I do step in and manage the dog before one of us gets hurt. I will also explain what I am doing and why I am doing it so they don't get upset, but if its between me and the vet getting bit or the dog learning how to behave on the table then the dog is going to be muzzled and dealt with.
I have been know to get on my knees while a dog is worried and spend ten minutes or more getting that dog to trust me before anyone else even touches the dog or comes in the room. You do have to read body language of the animal before you even get close to it. But, the whole point of my first post and the ones following is there are some owners who are so insistant about their poor little princess not having to mind that somebody will get hurt if we don't step in. We do have a couple who insist their 100 lb fat lab girls HATE the table and will not tolerate it. So, we scrabble around on the floor trying to take their temps while mommy and daddy coo little sweet nothings in their ears. Luckily they are sweet fat old girls. However, when mommy and daddy drop them off for ear cleaning under anesth. or to remove some tumors, they were happy as clams laying on the table while being put under. In this case, the dogs needed mommy and daddy gone. We have no problem with the owners being there while we do simple procedures as long as they will let us do what we have to do.


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## wyominggrandma

Jax08
I am not perfect, obviously you are. Why don't you get over it and leave me alone. I am trying to post again, but you are making it impossible to even want to. Whatever.


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## Castlemaid

Really bugs me when people say that _puppies_ are being bad. That is like saying an infant is bad for crying because they have colic. 

Jax, I'd be LIVID if anyone handled my dogs that way!

For me, I don't care if the vet staff like my dogs or not - what I care about is if they treat me and my dogs with consideration and respect, and don't assume that they can handle the dogs better than I can.


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## onyx'girl

I have a reactive dog who, at the vet has to be muzzled. She isn't a "princess" but a fearful dog because her experiences at the previous vet were never positive. She is 90# of muscle and not a fatty. I have to ace her just to have the control that we do. The table works wonders for her, and my vet(new one) knows that Onyx needs different approach than: just grab, get er done and get her out. When the vet shows confidence(not dominance) the dog feels a bit more secure. I trust my vet, not so sure about the techs...

I believe some dogs are better off if the owner isn't there, in my dogs case, I am at her head while the vet and techs do their thing. 
Every dog is different and every experience is different. But the experience should be as positive as we can make it for them whatever the temperament of the dog(or owner).


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## Jax08

Why is it when I disagree with someone, I'm perfect?   I am not picking on you. I am addressing issues that you are ignoring from a client perspective. How many times do I need to say that I was not making excuses for animals that will bite and owners that lie? Are you purposely ignoring that fact? I hardly think I'm a responsible for your bad mood so don't blame me for your over reacting to what was said.



wyominggrandma said:


> Jax08
> I am not perfect, obviously you are. Why don't you get over it and leave me alone. I am trying to post again, but you are making it impossible to even want to. Whatever.


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## Jax08

onyx'girl said:


> I have a reactive dog who, at the vet has to be muzzled. She isn't a "princess" but a fearful dog because her experiences at the previous vet were never positive. She is 90# of muscle and not a fatty. I have to ace her just to have the control that we do. The table works wonders for her, and my vet(new one) knows that Onyx needs different approach than: just grab, get er done and get her out. When the vet shows confidence(not dominance) the dog feels a bit more secure. I trust my vet, not so sure about the techs...
> 
> I believe some dogs are better off if the owner isn't there, in my dogs case, I am at her head while the vet and techs do their thing.
> Every dog is different and every experience is different. But the experience should be as positive as we can make it for them whatever the temperament of the dog(or owner).



Jane - do you get the Ace prior to the visit? We've discussed this with our former vet for Banshee but then when it came time to bring her in we got the run around. She is so terrified that her hair flies off in clumps. She is definitely better for me than DH. He babies her and I won't put up with nonsense. I've been wondering about having the vet come here on a farm call for her to see if that makes it any better for her.


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## Jax08

Lucia - I YELLED at that tech. She didn't come back into the room. It wasn't long before I switched vets for other things that happened but I always tried to schedule my appt's depending on what tech was working and to avoid one of the vets that worked there. I wish I lived closer to the chiropractic vet. He was awesome!


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## codmaster

wyominggrandma, Would you let a Dr. (and nurse) take your 4 yo child (if you had one) in the back treatment room and do a procedure on him/her without you going with him/her?

How about if you heard them scream out? Or come back into the room all shaken up and crying?

Is that ok? Because the Dr. and/or nurse are pros and know the best way to treat a child??????? Don't they?


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## Chicagocanine

wyominggrandma said:


> Training your dog with positive reinforcement is great and more power to you, BUt make sure your dog can and will take physical restraint from a vet or vet tech without biting, because sometimes if they are never taught that a hand can hold their head or face or muzzle or leg or whatever, they will act up and possible bite.


Whether or not someone trains with positive reinforcement has nothing to do with whether a dog is comfortable with vet restraint. The two are not connected.


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## G-burg

> I am a trainer, groomer, have been showing dogs for years and years and excuse me but the owner INSISTED we finish trimming the dogs nails. I tell people with new puppies to spend lots and lots touching and rubbing their feet, just like I tried to explain to this man that is what he needed to do with his dog. He demanded we finish the dogs nails.
> This forum is nothing but a bunch of people who feel they know better than the person standing there or being there or anything else and don't even give a chance for anyone to say anything. I didnot feel the need to get into a three page long explanation of what the owner wanted and why we did what we did, I was trying to say that WE are the ones who get bit and chewed up when YOUR dog will not tolorate being touched. EXCUSE me if I didn't going into total explanation, I figured some people might just try to understand what I was trying to say instead of blasting me and my vet. YOU don't know me, YOU don't know what I do everyday or everyweekend so YOU do not have the right to tell me what a horrible vet tech I am. EVERYTHING with dogs is not cut and dry, not a text book case. Obviously if one dares to post to this forum, the majority will trash them or tell them their opinions.
> See ya, too bad your opinions make people leave or not want to post.


wyominggrandma...
I feel ya and totally understand where your coming from.. We experience it all.. Advice I can give you... Let it go.. Don't let an internet chat board get to you.. I work in a dog training facility, that also does grooming..

What I've learned on these types of boards over the years is to not share to much information.. Everyone has an opinion on what's best and that's okay.. Even though I know the methods we use work and have worked well, have helped thousands of people with their dogs over the years and will continue to help people that are open minded to the different training techniques and want a well behaved pet.. That's what I focus on, the real experiences of watching the dogs transform..

Not everyone that comes to our classes are going to subscribe to our methods, there gonna know more than you, be resistant to what you have to offer and that's okay too..


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## plusdoegsd

that would have been our last training session with this obviously incapable trainer wannabe. lasting results dont come from harsh training techniques but from investing time and earning trust and patiently making the dog enjoy working with you.


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## selzer

parkerlaniermusic said:


> What does that even mean?


No idea, but the last post was ten years ago, so that pup probably figured it out by now or is dead. If you have a similar situation or question, then it would be better to start a new thread.


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