# Im at a point where we cant do this anymore...



## thegreatescapex0 (May 17, 2009)

So I've been posting several questions about Liam's aggression that I noticed since he was a puppy, but not even socialization helped. We have been taking him on walks through the woods for the past 4 months, twice weekly on a trail where people take their dogs on walks and there he gets to meet and get used to dogs and people.

He is still very cautious and gets into a few barking/lunging situations but I've noticed that he only does this when people are running, or when he's held tightly on his leash when someone approaches. 

We had family over for New Years just today, and basically I ended up in tears on how aggressive he has become. Last time they came over (a month ago), he was barking for around two hours before we finally let him out once he's calmed down and he sniffed everyone out and they gave him treats for his calm behavior. He was among us the rest of the time and played around and was totally fine with everyone and everything.

Today, he was lunging and barking and snarling and growling at everyone. I could barely hold him back with a leash and a prong collar. Later on, my dad ended up putting a mesh muzzle on him and took him to a far corner of the room and asked him to get down and sit and praised him for it, one on one. Liam sat there politely, but as soon as someone approached him he began lunching and barking beyond belief. It really scares the heck out of all of our guests. We couldn't take anymore so we ended up closing him up for the rest of the time because his barking was just continious.

Liam wasn't socialized enough as a puppy.. that is where my mistakes begin and his father was known to be very defensive at times, so I guess he has the trait in him. We can't afford to spend any more than 350$ on training for him, so what can I do? I'm literally in tears, because I love him so much, he's a great family dog and is our "brother", but he's only almost one year old! and he lunges at people!!!!

We cannot take him to the vet, for fear of what could happen, and when we will want to go on vacation in the future, no one will be willing to take him in including any kennels. He also shows aggression to certain dogs, which are mostly males. Liam is not neutered, is that something that could ease his anxiety?

Please I'm desperate for any advice or help, I can't even stand to think about having to put him to sleep or sell him away if anyone would even be willing to take him in the future if this problem gets worse.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Have you ever had a thyroid test done?

This used to be a great group, I don't know if it still is: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/agbeh/


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you worked with a behaviorist to manage him? Or just a trainer? 
I agree, start with the thyroid, if that comes back normal(send it to Dr. Jean Dodds) then there are ways to manage this. 

He is still young and hormonal, so that has something to do with it, I'm sure. You can give him a relaxant to have vet examination go more stressfree. Your vet will know what to use when you explain the situation...some drugs can intensify the aggression.
The leash and prong were probably just ramping up his reactiveness. It would have been better to just crate him away(as you finally did) from everyone when you have guests over. He was overwhelmed and feeling the need to fight because he couldn't flee.
There are ways to manage it, it will take time and him to mature. He may never be a social dog, though. 
I am sorry you are going thru this, don't give up on him. Onyx was the same way at a year(she even nipped my SIL because she approached her with her hand out for Onyx to "sniff"), and now she is doing much, much better at 3. 
What really helped was me reading and doing the exercises in the book <u>Control Unleashed</u> by Leslie McDevitt, it helps manage reactive dogs. I was lucky enough to take a class based on the book, too.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Hang in there. It isn't easy to have an agressive dog. 

I agree with Jane, a behaviorist may be able to help and certainly see a vet. I don't think you need to fear a vet wanting to put your dog down because he is showing aggression.

However, if he is fine with your immediate family, the easiest answer may be just to crate him or put him in a seporate room when you have company over. My family was over yesterday and my BIL and Sis wanted to see Moose. I had to block him at the door to the room he was shut in just for them to look at him. He started growling, barking and lunging. I shut the door, and he was fine. He actually preferred to be left alone in there until they left.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is always best to start with the physical, vet exam. 

Even kenneled dogs should not be this fearful of people. So you may be right that there is a genetic component. However, I almost think that your dog lacks confidence. Training WILL help in this and no time like the present. Getting him out there every week around other people and dogs, lots of praise when he masters things. And start him in agility if possible. For some reason, the full body experience, the total positive training, the accomplishment, and the fun will often help dogs gain confidence. 

He si still young, and a lot of dogs go through a butt head stage about now. The trick is to continue to work with him through this stage. 

When the family is there, can you crate your dog in the main room where the people are and give him a nice bone that he can only work on while he is being crated while people are over? 

It is a tough situation. With fearful dogs, it is one part training, two part persisitance, two parts management. I have never worked with a behaviorist. There is a book, something like Help for the shy dog, or how to make your shy dog a great pet. 

Since most of us are not behaviorists or even trainers, it is hard for us to give an opinion even without seeing the dog. A behaviorist might be able to give you the tools you need and diagnose the type of agression a lot better than we can. 

Good luck.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Someone just recommended the yahoo group Lisa posted to me and our trainer recommended the books "Control Unleashed" and "Click to Calm". 
An evaluation from a Behaviorist might help you understand the reasons for the aggression. There is a difference between a behviorist and a trainer. I think you and Liam can get through this. Adolescence is tough!. At almost one year you have a make teenager on steroids. I was told that it is important to keep the dog under "threshold" You don't want to get him to the point where he loses control and behaving aggressively becomes a practiced habit.l Maybe these resources can help you find that threshold. After awhile when he matures and mellows the threshold increases. 

Right now the main think is to protect Liam and others. Keep him in the crate when you have company. Put the crate in another room so he does not seek the people or put a sheet over it to create a barrier.


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## Bennett (Nov 17, 2009)

I understand exactly how you feel! We have been through this, too, and were fortunate to find a trainer who offered a class for reactive dogs and their owners. Our dog is fearful and anxious, but her behavior looks like aggression to most people. She has never bitten anyone, but she lets them know she is afraid by similar behavior. I understand that training can be expensive, but it is essential if you want to have any kind of a peaceful life with Liam. 

A physical exam would be the first place to start, of course, to see if there is any underlying medical condition causing the behavior. I have heard many people suggest thyroid testing for aggressive behavior, but don't know enough about this myself. Try googling it to get some additional information so you'll know the basic issues before you talk to your vet.

Then, search for a trainer (either through word of mouth or by going to www. ccpdt.org) in your area who does positive behavior modification. Call and describe Liam's situation and ask what they would do to help before you choose a trainer. You should look for someone who is experienced with aggression and reactive behavior, who uses strictly positive methods, since hard corrections will bring out more fear or aggression in a dog like Liam, and ideally one who knows the breed. If the cost of training with them is more than you can manage, be honest and don't be afraid to ask if they can make some adjustment in their fee. You love Liam and want to help him -- that is the bottom line. I hope you find a trainer who will teach you the skills to help him lead a happier life. Keep us posted.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

What training classes/socialization have you done with him in the last year?
maybe do an itemized list of his daily routine so people can give very specific advice.
Did you manage to locate any of the books suggested by *3K9Mom * (your local library can often order in books so you don't need to worry about buying them - also if the lending card is for a child, loan times may be longer & overdue fees may be waived).

I get the impression you are still very young & haven't gotten much help with this dog from your parents & Liam would be a 'hard' dog even for an experienced GSD person ...










As for taking him to the vet, you need to train Liam to believe that basket muzzle = treat basket, this will allow you to safely take him out & about. Many people take their pup frequently to the vet clinic just for a visit & treat or weigh-in etc so that the dog is happy & relaxed about going to the vet.

At this point I believe you need a one on one behaviorist~trainer to help Liam & if you can't see this ever happening, then I'd contact local rescues for help: hopefully they will be able to find him a placement with someone that is able to help Liam. You cannot wait until he has a bite record to do this













> Quote: *3K9Mom *
> It seems to me that what the woman said is that the pup could end up being an aggressive dog. And based on what the OP has written, she *might* be right unless things change.
> 
> Hopefully, the boarding situation can be remedied, and it sounds like help is on the way.
> ...


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## thegreatescapex0 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks for all your answers, I'm going to try to find a behaviorist in my area and get him evaluated. I'm not sure if he will even let them into our house, that's how bad it is. My family (parents and siblings), we are completely fine with him, no food aggression, or when my younger brother teases him when I happen to turn away, Liam is completely patient and just gets up and sits a bit away without a bark or growl.

I'm just assuming, although I'm not sure, but I think he has a "Pack Protector" image... He is a part of our pack, and won't allow anyone in our 'territory' or near us. 

On the trail, he has a more fearful barking behavior of bigger dogs, but not people. If he doesn't like someone, he will go straight at them lunging.. and I can tell by the fur on his back. It stands up like a porcupine when he feels a threat is coming. At home, there are no chances.. as soon as the door bell rings he starts barking and then when the person comes in, his territorial protection drive kicks in and he starts the lunging and snarling and hideous dreadful growling action.

He has never had any previous negative experiences with people, ever. All good. But I think it is the lack of experiences that makes him have no trust in anyone.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It does sound like he is fear aggressive to me. 
And like Selzer said, building his confidence will help. There are so many of us that have been thru this, and you can get him thru it too! 
I took Onyx to a trainer/behaviorist Julie, and while there she wouldn't make eye contact while Julie was cutting up high value treats.
We were talking about Onyx's issues during this time and Julie would just toss a treat now and then, but basically ignored her. Finally after about 1/2 hr Onyx would give her focus. There was construction going on outside the facility so we heard banging and noise the whole time.
A guy came in from the side door(to use the bathroom) wearing carharts. I wasn't holding Onyx's leash, letting he sniff around while we talked and Onyx rushed him, barking wildly. She did NOT bite him but stood there barking til Julie told him to turn around. I went over to grab her leash and luckily there was no bite. 
So it wasn't a territory thing, we weren't in Onyx's domain. It was plain fear aggression. After that, Onyx regressed, no eye contact wouldn't take a treat(she is food motivated) so it really showed how stressed she was and over her threshhold in an environment that really wasn't a threat to her.
We left shortly after with some instructions for hand targeting, marker training and distraction exercises along with the CU book I had previously bought from Julie. We started the CU class about a month later.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

His behavior, based soley on what you typed, doesn't sound like protective behavior to me. It sounds like he's afraid. I would highly recommend the books Lori (3K9Mom) suggested. <u>Scaredy Dog</u> was the turning point for Risa and I and <u>Control Unleashed</u> is full of great exercises as well.

I live with a fearful dog. She has made amazing strides in the time I've had her but she is STILL fearful. Therefore, I have to manage situations all the time. Ris does best when she realizes I will handle things and keep her safe (to the best of my ability anyway).









We had a lot of company over the Holidays. People Ris had never met before. I knew seeing strangers enter the house would be stressful for her so I put her in the bedroom in her kennel. After everyone had arrived, I brought her out to mingle for a bit. I had treats and stuffed her full of them. I didn't let anyone push her too hard to interact. I gave people treats to give to her. I let her take her time and adjust. Once I felt like she had had enough, I returned her to her kennel for a break.

I will echo everyone else's suggestions. Get him checked out at the vet and consult with a good behaviorist. Training should be kept positive. Collar corrections are generally not advised with fearful dogs as it often increases the undesirable behavior. 

Good luck!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

http://www.peaceablepaws.com/

How far are you from here??


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

This is a young pup still. Prong collars, restraint probably only escalate the undesirable behavior. You might want to check out bill campbell's website (someone help me here - it's been a while) he has some interesting case studies posted. 

It sounds to me like what your dog needs is positive experiences with people outside the family. I know this can be hard to achieve when he's exhibiting behavior that makes them afraid. I think part of the problem with the escalating behavior is that your family and you expect it. Your worry transfers to the pup who exhibits barking and lunging as a response to your concerns. (OK I know very well how hard it is to relax when your dog is exhibiting behavior you are not happy with. Try.)

You have 350 to spend on training. That should help a lot as part of it will be getting your dog used to working around other people and other dogs.

Best of luck and I hope more people step up with potential trainers in your area.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think to ease your worries about your dog possibly biting someone is to get him used to a muzzel. this will relax you more, which in turn help him. you need to introduce the muzzel as a positive which takes time.........put on muzzel, treat, take muzzel off.he will associate it with food a good thing.....
Even with a muzzel on you need to let him know you will protect him, you are in charge.....and i would only expose him to situation with muzzel on in short sessions........

it sounds like you need to counter condition and work with a professional. trying to deal with these issues on your own will be very frustrating..its worth spending the time and money getting someone to help that knows what they are doing...

best of luck...
debbie


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## krispifsu (Dec 23, 2007)

I saw in your first post that you are limited on the funds that you can spend - so when you find a trainer, I'd go through the initial evaluation and then ask the trainer to show you some techniques and then work on them on your own. When you need more help, go back. For example, our trainer first had us work on body blocking, removing Lily from a stressful situation, and finding her comfort zone (before she showed any reaction like hackles raised, heavier breathing, etc.). Then we went back and worked on slowly lessening her comfort zone, redirecting her attention, etc. The trainer showed us techniques, we work on mastering them at home, and then would go back for more tools and to work on some old issues we were still having problems mastering. This helps to strech out your budget some and still provides for constant training. 

A good trainer/behaviorist is what REALLY helped us. There were things that I was doing despite all the reading/research I did that were just making the situation worse. When I had someone right there to watch Lily and I together she pointed out things that I never would have even though of - and also some things where I had a complete DUH moment. We have come SO far with Lily. We have set backs now and then and she'll always be who she is, but we are comfortable enough with her that she's goes to Lowes, the pet store, the park, etc. and I don't worry that she's freak out because I've learned to manage most situations. It became for us a matter of dealing with the little things so we can stop Lily before she goes off. And if she does go off because I couldn't stop something or I didn't expect her to react in that way or I didn't pay attention the signs that she was getting stressed, then we've learned how to calm her down. 

Lots of luck to you and don't give up yet. If you read through the stories in here you'll see lots of posts very similar to your (and there are still days where I get tired and wonder why she reacts the way she does sometimes), but dealing with Lily has made me a better owner and I wouldn't trade her for any pup in the world.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Instead of walking him in the bush on a path that people have to approach and pass near and where other dogs may be loose, go to a park, sit on a bench away from a busy walkway, then read a book, magazine, etc for maybe 30 min. Hopefully he will calm down and lay down, Do this daily and on different benches. Eventually in maybe a month move a wee bit closer to where people might pass by but still not walking toward. He needs to learn you are unconcerned as people pass by. Wear his muzzle and ignore him. If he pulls and lunges tie the leash to the bench. If you become more confident that he isn't going to bite and you relax he will also start to and he will be getting used to different sights and sounds.

I would also take him to a vet, maybe weekly and just walk in, get a treat, you feed him at first, weigh him and leave. After 3-4 visits have a full check up and neuter him, He will be worse when hormones and teenage challenges begin so nip them now. Use the money you have at the vets and then save up for more training but start getting him out in a controlled place like a park. 

When you start noticing him relaxing sooner at the bench, then start practicing heeling and sits and downs and SHORT stays, all on leash to start showing him he can obey when away from home. This will be very tiring for him but don't worry it will be good for him. He won't be able to lunge and go nuts for too long, and that is why you read so you can ignore him and then the time will seem to go faster and you will eventually see results. Too bad you let him get to this age with out more work on him. Good luck


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i sent you a pm but it is still marked unread. do you know how to open pm's (personal messages here on the board)? it's a flashing red envelope next to "my stuff" on the header bar near the top of your screen window.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

There are some great suggestions here, I hope LiamGSD is able to find something that works. 

This right here stands out screaming at me and sounds SO much like me before I learned that *I* was causing most of my dog's issues:



> Quote:He is still very cautious and gets into a few barking/lunging situations but I've noticed that he only does this when people are running, or when he's held tightly on his leash when someone approaches.


People running by - could very well be nothing more than prey drive. Many dogs have it and GSD's are definitely in this group. This is not an excuse, it's a valid reason your dog may be reacting the way he is.

I can tell you that holding the leash tight is a HUGE contributor to your dog's problems. I have 100% no doubt of that, it's exactly what I was doing and no longer do and it's made a huge improvement. 

I could have missed it in all the posts but in case it's not here ... since you sound so much like me and my situation I'm going to do some assuming here. For a few days in a few different situations, pay good close attention to what YOU are doing and how YOU are feeling - not your dog - YOU. 

Are you scared, anxious, nervous - any or all of these and more are real possible, but you have to be willing to be extremely honest with yourself and take a good hard look. Any one or combination of these things WILL be reflected in your dog's attitude and behavior. If you are nervous, it goes right down that leash and affects your dog negatively. 

*Nervous/scared/anxious owner = Nervous/scared/anxious dog = dangerous dog.* I'm living proof of this and also living proof that realizing what I'M doing affects my dog and being able to change ME has changed my dog for the better.

It would be very normal for you to be feeling any or all of these emotions, you're dealing with an unstable dog. So, don't be afraid to be super-honest with yourself. Until you do that, I don't think you have a snowball's chance in [heck] of fixing the problems here and that comes from someone who's been there and done it.

Keep in mind, this won't change his prey drive!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Ran out of editing time ... just wanted to add ... you may as well not spend any more money on any trainers or books or anything else UNTIL you find out what's going on with YOU and work on YOU if you find you're doing the same thing I was. You'd only be wasting your money because until YOU are fixed you absolutely CAN'T do anything with your dog's behavior. It will be impossible. 

So, I'm thinking the most important fix here is FREE







but don't expect it will be easy to accomplish, it's not. Finding these things in yourself may be difficult or not - just depends on how willing you are to be honest with yourself in your soul search. Once found, the hard part begins in working on yourself. I would say I've been working on this about a year and I've made some huge changes in myself. I feel I'm about 90% of the way there and my dog is definitely 90% better


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Assuming the thyroid checks out...

This sounds like more than just lack of socialization. I think it's a combination of his age/stage, his genetics, and repeatedly being placed in these situations that make him react. What I would do honestly is not even try to work on this right now. I think this dog needs some time and some space. The behavior you are describing illustrates that the dog is in some pretty extreme discomfort with the situation. If he's reacting this way in his own home, than for his sake I would say for now it's best to either not have people over that upset him, or make sure he is kept comfortable and away from company when they are over. The key to dealing with this type of reaction is preventing it. If he's already escalating, then the physical restraints are only going to make it worse. I would say take a deep breath because you obviously care very much and have tried very hard, but IMO I think a little too hard. Try to look at it from the dog's perspective. He doesn't understand that these people are nice, all he knows is that he is uncomfortable but is constantly pressured even in his own space and his own home. I would forget about trying to desensitize him and flood him with socialization right now, and just work on building a bond with the dog and doing some simple obedience with using all motivational and positive techniques. He sounds like he needs a major confidence boost and will need more time and effort put into trusting the family so that in time, he will defer to you guys rather than feeling he has to constantly be aggressive at people.

If it were me, I'd even be a little reluctant to hire another trainer or behaviorist because I know too many that just want to constantly flood the dogs and put them in these situations over and over that clearly make the dog uncomfortable. The dog does not need to learn not to react to people, what he needs to learn is self-confidence and trust in his family to protect him. That is something that will have to come from you. A lot of dogs go through fear stages and periods of being very suspicious. Instead of putting more pressure on them, they need time and space to mature and develop and they need to know that the owners have their needs at heart and won't constantly expose them to things that make them anxious.


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## Hansdale (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi
My Meldoy was a kennel dog and not socialised at all. I have been working with her and she is a lot better.She does get scared and nevous with strangers.
The great lady I asked for help has done lots of correctional training so this was a plus.
I always have my treat bag on when we go out.
Melody does not get treats all the time but it is a great distraction from some situations.
I always take her away from a situation before she has had enough. 
leave on a good note.
lots and lots of praise. 
I never use a tight lead as she thinks I want her to act agressively when the lead is tight.( known why just a trait)
I always ask for her attention so she is more focused on me.
I try not to walk the same way each walk so she does not get board. 
I cross the road ots so to mix up what I want her to do and do sits and drops at the curb , A bit of variety.
Now when people come to our home ,we don't get many visitors( thank goodness) she is not good with small children so she is sent to bed when the grand kids come.adults she is ok with but only for short times .So I limit her with them. 
At the park she is a lot better and I can work with her off lead when no one else is around.
She is ok with dogs in yards now but wow in the begining was terrible.
Don't ever reward him if he is barking or doing anything you don't want him to do. But as soon as he stops say good boy and treat.he will get the message that being quiet he gets yummy food.
stick with it but it won't happen over night
good luck
I also use a clicker and think they are a wonderful training tool when used correctly.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

Sandra, I see you are in NJ. WHERE? I may be able to give you the names of some trainers who can help you.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiamGSD
> <span style="color: #FF0000">when he's held tightly on his leash when someone approaches.
> 
> I could barely hold him back with a leash and a prong collar. </span>


This^^^^^^^

I have the same EXACT problems with my dog. He was also socialized and it didn't help much. I think other factors are contributing. The above are the reasons he is on the offensive. I know because my dog does the same thing the minute he is restrained. 

The reason he was okay New Years was because you let him out he barked sniffed and it was done with. He was not held back. My dog ALSO does this. As long as he can explore the thing he fears he quickly gets over his fears. Of course, this is not always possible when he's barking at complete strangers but at least at home you have some control. 

Just out of curiosity, where did you get your pup? Who was the breeder? I'm from NJ too I wonder if our pups are siblings?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

How old is he?
Is the prong collar fitted properly? When fitted properly he should yelp when he pulls.
Kilo is 90 pounds & he cant even budge me when hes on his prong.
I think you should get a professional trainer. (if you can afford one)


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

From looking at past posts, it looks like your pup is a little over a year old? I agree with several other assessments that it sounds like fearful aggression rather than straight up aggression. I didn't see in previous posts if there was an actual *bite* incident. If there was _not_,then you should be able to take your pup to the vet without fearing that they will put him down: follow some safety precautions: mine are mentioned a little farther.

The Yahoo site for shy dogs is extremely helpful as are the books mentioned earlier in this thread. Another useful book for me was When Pigs Fly 

We have had River for a year now, and I figure she is a little over 2.We put River in a dog run when people are at the house; we can never take a chance; *she will bite*. I have family and friends who want to help with socializing her and we have her on a tie down in our family room, with *one person at a time*. They don't approach her or look at her, they talk to me and toss treats her way. It is a long slow process and over a year, we are seeing some improvement.

When I take her to the vet, I use a nylon muzzle and a gentle leader, *BOTH*; I always hold her head myself. I love my vets, both of them, but won't take the chance that she will 'taste' them if given the chance. Controlling her head with a gentle leader and having her muzzled allow me to protect her and other people at the vets office from her fear. I know some people don't agree, but this is what works for us.

When I walk her, I use two leads: One on a flat collar and one on a gentle leader: If she lunges, I can easily control her head. I avoid situations where _triggers_, people, dogs, bikes, are close. When she alerts that her trigger is in view, I stop and treat. When she relaxes, I proceed. If she doesn't relax, I turn and go back. Then I turn around and try again.

I spent money that I didn't have on a trainer and a behaviorist. Both were very different, very informative, and invaluable for teaching *ME* how to handle a shy/fearful-agressive dog. There is no quick and easy fix; it takes a lot of time, education, and patience. The trainer didn't think that she would ever improve but she has. The behaviorist didn't see as much fearful agression as she often shows, and thought that I was exagerating. I can't emphasize enought that you work on your confidence and skill as much as your dogs. You need to know and understand your pups signals better than anyone else in order to work with him.

Please, before you give up your pup, try some of the advice that you have received in this thread. The books alone will give you lots of different handling/training ideas. She is still in her* teenage butthead *period and lots of changes to come. A dog is a longterm committment of both time and money. I read the books from dogwise over and over; what didn't work with my last reading may work if I try it again. 

The most important thing is confidence for both you as her handler, and her. Everything else develops from there


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: doggonefool
> When I take her to the vet, I use a nylon muzzle and a gentle leader, *BOTH*; I always hold her head myself. I love my vets, both of them, but won't take the chance that she will 'taste' them if given the chance. Controlling her head with a gentle leader and having her muzzled allow me to protect her and other people at the vets office from her fear. I know some people don't agree, but this is what works for us.


Carol, you are doing fabulous job with River, she's so lucky to have you on her side. The only thing that I may suggest (it's up to you to listen to it) is to use a wire basket muzzle instead of a nylon muzzle. In that case she'll be able to breath and pant freely, and bark, and she won't bite anyone. GSDs pant a lot and a nylon muzzle doesn't allow that by keeping their mouth shut which makes a dog even more nervous. 

Agree with the last statement completely!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I use a muzzle at the vet, too.
Onyx was there the other day, we ace her beforehand as she is fear aggressive. We did ear swabs in the exam room and she was extremely aggitated, would have bitten the vet if she wasn't muzzled(even w/ acing) Vet decided to put her on the table in the back room for blood draw.
Putting her up on the table was really helpful. It took her fear away and she was very cooperative~totally different attitude, as she was eyelevel w/ the tech and vet. 
I am always w/ her, so I held her head during the procedure. 
I won't let them take her from me unless she has to have a surgical procedure. I don't know this vet well enough yet.


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

LOL







We tried the basket muzzle, which we will use at home, but she will hook her claws in the weave and pull it off. Her nylon muzzle has enough 'play' that she can lick and take treats, but can't really pull at it so easily. The vets prefer that muzzle, so it is only for vet use


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

This sounds like an owner problem - I can see a number of things that a good trainer should be able to fix, but it would take the right trainer and some one-on-one work.

It's a concern when there are all sorts of comments and suggestions, and the OP hasn't been back since 1/1.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Have not see her back online, I wonder what happened.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I always worry about the dogs....


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## kt67 (Apr 10, 2004)

I would try St. Huberts school... They are in Madison, and I hope you are close enough.

St. Huberts 

The class I would recommend is Feisty Fidos


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: kt67I would try St. Huberts school... They are in Madison, and I hope you are close enough.
> 
> St. Huberts
> 
> The class I would recommend is Feisty Fidos


The OP never came back, but I was going to tell her/him about this place. I am scheduled to meet with a trainer on the 30th of this month to evaluate my dog. This place has come highly recommended to me by several people.

My dog displays similar behaviors as the OP's dog and the trainer recommended a private evaluation instead of just enrolling in the feisty course. He explained the Feisty course is more for dogs who are reactive towards other dogs but the OP's dog is also reactive towards people. 

They will probably want to set up private sessions that run for 8 months, once every 4-6 weeks. I think the price was 175 so it would be within the range the OP had been looking for. The trainer who deals with reactive dogs is Vinny. He is the person you will have to speak to.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great info you guys, thanks for posting it!


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

I am in NJ and I am aware of many private trainers too but the OP hasn't returned to tell me her area of NJ so I can give her specific recommendations. I hope everything is ok.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Her email is listed in her profile...maybe she'll answer her emails?


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## thegreatescapex0 (May 17, 2009)

So sorry I haven't been on in a while to check for any more advice, and yes I'm in Northern New Jersey, I'll have to check out a few of these recommended training facilities. 

The basket muzzle sounds much better and makes more sense than the nylon, due to the fact that the nylon stresses him out and he cannot bark or breathe freely. I try to refrain from the muzzle though, because I know it just makes it 100x worse.

You guys want to hear something interesting? So my dad has been taking him on these walks through the trail 3x weekly, and INCREDIBLE improvements have been made. He takes him during the weekday mornings, so I only get to go with them on every other weekend, and its amazing what I see. 

The first trip I went with them was around two weeks ago, it was the first time in a month or two that I've gone with them, because it used to bring my hopes down and I would just give up. We get out and I'm strictly holding the leash tight and Liam is going nuts, sniffing and not paying ANY attention to us. My dad told me he was gonna take the lead because my energy is killing him, so I gave it to him and just kept walking. The only thing running through my mind was "Oh boy, please please dont let anyone in our way". We go in a little bit, and my dad just unhooks the leash. I thought he lost his mind, is he CRAZY? He gives me a look and tells me to relax, it's fine, he wont do anything. With Liam circling us and playing around with him some bit, I look up and I see a couple with a German Shepherd ahead of us, loose. I was going crazy, ready for the worst, trying to catch Liam. But my dad said no, leave him alone, its fine. Now Liam's walking slow and cautiously, which is absolutely surprising because usually he just full out lunges and runs to any "threats". I could barely breath once we reach the dog and the couple, and after some nervous sniffing, BOOM Liam takes off running and playing and chasing with the dog. I was absolutely speechless, he even let the couple pet him and we gave him tons of praise/treats. For the rest of the walk, this was basically the behavior he displayed, even when there were 4-5 dogs with like 6-7 people all together, he would sniff, maybe ONE of them would growl at him to back off, and the rest would play around with him. He payed no attention to people, and if he did, it was only a sniff and tail wag and he would continue on. That day I was on top of the world. So proud of Liam 

It's been like that ever since, but ONLY at the park/trail, and ONLY if he is off his leash. He never ever runs away, always stays close, and shows absolutely no aggression/reactive behavior with other people/dogs. We just take precautions when people with big coats or baggy clothing come by alone without dogs, because thats when he gets a little eh, so we just try to put him on his leash, but nice and loose, and run past these people to make him think of it as a good thing, and also the fact that he wouldnt stop while running. So basiclly, we take him to this trail as often as possible, the more positive encounters, the better.

Although this is great, he still is stubborn and absolutely awful when he hears guests in the house or on walks on his leash in the street. Still reacting, still barking, still lunging. 

And yes I know, you may think that it's dangerous to others that I let him off of his leash on this trail, but we DO take precautions and practice continuously calling him back, which he responds to EVERY time, and we put him on his leash, loosely, every once in a while, to let him know that having the leash is a good thing, along with treats of course. Liam is a totally different dog at this park, we like to call it "Miracle Forest", haha, we all enjoy it


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