# War Dogs



## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Just stumbled across this excellent 2017 New York Times article about the Vietnam war dogs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/the-dogs-of-the-vietnam-war.html

Most people still don't know what happened to these heroic dogs when the US military withdrew from Vietnam. You can see the full story on youtube.com. It's not a new movie, but few people have seen it. I think everyone in this country should watch it. Just click on the link Watch this video on youtube in the video below when you try to play it and get the "Video unavailable" message.






It is one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever seen. America's betrayal of these magnificent dogs is unforgivable and should never be forgotten.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thank you. It’s a whole movie! I’m going to try to stream it on my TV rather than sitting over a tiny screen.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you. It’s a whole movie! I’m going to try to stream it on my TV rather than sitting over a tiny screen.


Thanks for your interest. Many people would rather not know.

I'll be very interested in hearing what you think. I think the movie is outstanding--very gripping and nothing like a boring documentary. Once you start watching, it's hard to stop.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

As Sherman said ...."war is ****"........




The video portrays a perspective which should get to the core of most all.....dog enthusiast or otherwise.





SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

So important all their stories are told and are always to be shared to promote a change. 
War horse a breath taking play taking place in ww1 about a boy and his horse and tells the true fate of the horses of war. 

It takes extraordinary people that help change and help continue to improve the fate of these four legged war heros after war. 

https://coffeeordie.com/mission-k9-...5cFVrvIQoibbemaOqKZ47IgXmnfdaznlALB6t-tJWU_mA

https://youtu.be/TbD1MP_DETc


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

https://justice4tedds.com/robbyslaw/

Laws were passed almost 20 years ago to help keep anything like that from happening again.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is a really touching video. I think it was shameful how the army treated these animals when they chose to leave them behind.

Things are much different now. If a handler gets wounded and returns home, so does the dog. If a handler is KIA, the dog returns home. If a dog gets wounded, they have the same priority as a soldier. They are often flown to Germany with the handler to receive the best veterinary care available. No U.S. Military dogs get left behind. 

There are still some major issues in the military dog world, particularly with adoption after the dog is retired, but things are much better than they used to be.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Laws were passed almost 20 years ago to help keep anything like that from happening again.


The best way to ensure that something like this will happen again is to assume that it never will.

Laws change. Another unpopular war, more claims of foreign canine diseases coming back with war dogs to the US, and it will all happen again.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

That is why it is so important to never forget what happened to the Vietnam war dogs. 

And watching the War Dogs video is a good way to honor these splendid dogs. Also, for people who don't fully realize how much these dogs are worth, the movie makes it totally clear.

Interesting that you are discouraging people from watching a movie that honors war dogs.

For folks who like to make up their own minds, you might want to check out the video. I guarantee you won't be bored. And you will come away with an understanding of war dogs far beyond what most people have.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> There are still some major issues in the military dog world, particularly with adoption after the dog is retired


And that is just disgraceful given the sacrifices made by these dogs and their handlers. There should be no issues at all. 

Yet another reason for people to watch the video so they understand what war dogs are worth and why they and their handlers deserve so much better than they are getting even today.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> https://justice4tedds.com/robbyslaw/
> 
> Laws were passed almost 20 years ago to help keep anything like that from happening again.


Are you familiar with Justice 4 TEDDs? They are a fantastic group working really hard at bringing people to justice for some less than stellar behavior. They also do everything possible to get retired dogs back to their handlers.

Fama was initially a TEDD dog. I was lucky enough to hear about her retirement on this forum and I had some friends here and in high places that enabled me to get her back. It isn't always so easy.

The producer of Black Fish is doing a documentary on the TEDD dogs.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Are you familiar with Justice 4 TEDDs? They are a fantastic group working really hard at bringing people to justice for some less than stellar behavior. They also do everything possible to get retired dogs back to their handlers.


An outstanding group, but it looks like they try to help only tactical explosive detection dogs. What about the other war dogs? Who (if anyone) helps them? What would have happened to Fama if she hadn't been a TEDD dog?

David, what can civilians do to make sure war dogs are treated right, including being promptly reunited with their handlers who want them? Public outrage over highly publicized cases like Sergeant Rex have forced the military to finally do right for individual dogs (although belately--Sergeant Rex didn't live long after the military finally allowed him to go home; I think it was hemangiosarcoma that killed him). But how to bring about general changes so the right thing is automatically and routinely and promptly done for the dogs and their handlers?

Obviously, civilians first need to get it about what war dogs and their handlers are worth. Which is why the video is so valuable. But then what? How to force the military to do what they are supposed to do?

I realize it's a lot easier for folks to sit around on their behinds going la la la, everything's fine now, don't worry, be happy. But for those of us who are livid about how many of these dogs are treated, what do you suggest we do to change this?


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

How incredibly sad that they were let down by the military that recruited them, and left to a fate worse than death if abandoned, or given over to the South Vietnamese. I'm sure they couldn't smell the difference between North and South Vietnamese- to the dogs they were the enemy. That was a heartbreaking film to watch.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

cvamoca said:


> How incredibly sad that they were let down by the military that recruited them, and left to a fate worse than death if abandoned, or given over to the South Vietnamese. I'm sure they couldn't smell the difference between North and South Vietnamese- to the dogs they were the enemy. That was a heartbreaking film to watch.


No, they couldn't tell the difference--that is an excellent insight. Here's a very sad comment on the New York Times article that speaks to this:

"Gilbert
Oct. 4, 2017
We were able to adopt 1 of those soldiers who were left behind. I was 8 years old and remembered that we took good care of him(we were well off & we did give him beef & he reluctantly ate it for his meals). However, he was quite unhappy (since he was trained to chase down VC and like it or not we looked like VC). We used a veterinarian to put him down after a 3-4 weeks as he refused to eat and was giving up on life. At least for 1 soldier who was abandoned, we gave him the best care."

From:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/the-dogs-of-the-vietnam-war.html#commentsContainer

America's betrayal of these dogs and their handlers was unforgivable and should *never* be forgotten.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JonRob said:


> Interesting that you are discouraging people from watching a movie that honors war dogs.


I have no idea how you come up with stuff like that on every single thread, but I'll just stay out of your own private Idaho from now.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Who is discouraging it? I think we all are pretty firm on the fact that the dogs have been wronged in the past, it’s been brought to light via many avenues. And people are standing up for these dogs and their rights as much as they do for human soldiers. It’s not something that’s being swept under a rug once a law is past through Congress. There are still people, to this very day, fighting for these dogs.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Are you familiar with Justice 4 TEDDs? They are a fantastic group working really hard at bringing people to justice for some less than stellar behavior. They also do everything possible to get retired dogs back to their handlers.
> 
> Fama was initially a TEDD dog. I was lucky enough to hear about her retirement on this forum and I had some friends here and in high places that enabled me to get her back. It isn't always so easy.
> 
> The producer of Black Fish is doing a documentary on the TEDD dogs.


Not really. I remembered there had been some legislation and I had looked at some available dogs a couple of times.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There was some post on this forum awhile back on just for TEDD the program had many issues and the people managing did a lot of mismanaging and crooked things despite the purpose of the program not all for their dogs back. I do understand they are suppose to change make revisions to the law.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@JonRob you need to chill out no one is discouraging anything. It is good to make people aware who are not but to make assumptions is questioning. Write to your representative is a start. There are organizations that help place military dogs to their handlers I just posted one.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://justice4tedds.com/

https://justice4tedds.com/2019/07/26/tedd-resolution-ndaa-2020/

http://www.operationwearehere.com/MilitaryWorkingDogs.html


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Are you familiar with Justice 4 TEDDs? They are a fantastic group working really hard at bringing people to justice for some less than stellar behavior. They also do everything possible to get retired dogs back to their handlers.
> ...


Fama was initially a TEDD, then a PEDD. That program (J4T) came about after I had already gotten her back. I was also a contractor for the same kennels that handled the TEDD program for the first few years. Another company won the bid and all the dogs that hadn't been rotated into regular Army dogs were moved. That's when all the alleged shady stuff went down.

Mission K9 Rescue is a great organization that deals with military and contract dogs. They help get contract dogs stuck overseas back to the U.S.

There are several Facebook groups dedicated to helping find handlers when dogs are in disposition.

Retired dogs can be adopted from Lackland AFB. They have a website for retired working dogs that outlines the process.

Write your congressman and tell them it's important to you.

Just to be 100% clear, there is no reason to be livid about how the vast majority of these dogs are treated. I thought I explained that in my earlier post. The only trouble with the military system is that some of the dogs are misappropriated after retirement. They go to a civilian home instead of to one of their prior handlers. I don't think that's mistreatment, but it certainly isn't right. 

There are some companies that will keep contract dogs that are being retired down range until they have amassed a lot of them to get them home for less money per dog. Some are left there if the contracting company is dropped. Mission K9 Rescue helps those dogs. Most of those companies are not U.S. based. These are NOT military dogs.

If you want to help, it's fairly easy to do a search for retired military working dog assistance organization and see what's out there.

Another way to help is to get on anysoldier.com and search for dog teams to send care packages. Things like Kongs, tugs, Scentlogix training aids, gloves, poop bags, tennis balls, water filters, long lines, leashes with frog snaps, ... All good stuff to send a deployed team. The best thing to send them is a letter and your email address (and Girl Scout cookies).


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Originally Posted by *JonRob* View Post
> _Interesting that you are discouraging people from watching a movie that honors war dogs.
> _
> I have no idea how you come up with stuff like that on every single thread, but I'll just stay out of your own private Idaho from now.


I can't think of a better way to discourage people from watching the video than suggesting that things are fixed now so no need to worry.

I'm curious too--why isn't someone who says he is so fond of working line dogs not *encouraging* people to watch a video that shows just how awesome war dogs and their handlers are?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> And people are standing up for these dogs and their rights as much as they do for human soldiers. It’s not something that’s being swept under a rug once a law is past through Congress. There are still people, to this very day, fighting for these dogs.


And it's clearly not enough. This from David:



David Winners said:


> There are still some major issues in the military dog world, particularly with adoption after the dog is retired


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Things are fixed.

This doesn't happen anymore.

Yes, it's a terrible thing that happened, but it's not like that anymore. 

I was in charge of 38 dogs in Afghanistan. All 38 came home safely.

There were a total of 500 active TEDDs at any given time. As of April 2013, none had been KIA. None were left in Afghanistan.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > And people are standing up for these dogs and their rights as much as they do for human soldiers. It’s not something that’s being swept under a rug once a law is past through Congress. There are still people, to this very day, fighting for these dogs.
> ...


There is major movement, including congressional investigations, into these problems as we speak.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> The only trouble with the military system is that some of the dogs are misappropriated after retirement. They go to a civilian home instead of to one of their prior handlers. I don't think that's mistreatment, but it certainly isn't right.


There's much worse stuff than that described on the TEDD website. Also, it is mistreatment to make a war dog pace away a long time in a kennel instead of promptly sending him home to his handler who wants him.

The stuff you describe to help is useful but it's all stopgap. Seems to me that the military should face some stiff financial penalties and some folks should be seriously demoted when they screw up with the war dogs and their handlers. (I suspect you'd feel much more strongly about this if Fama had been executed instead of finally being returned to you.) I'm going to talk to some of my politically savvy friends and an attorney to see what ideas they have.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Things are fixed.
> 
> This doesn't happen anymore.
> 
> ...


That part is fixed. But--sorry to keep quoting you, but the other data sources I've looked at show that your quote is accurate:



David Winners said:


> There are still some major issues in the military dog world, particularly with adoption after the dog is retired


Things are not fixed until they are totally fixed, and that means no more major issues.

And this:



David Winners said:


> Fama was initially a TEDD dog. I was lucky enough to hear about her retirement on this forum and I had some friends here and in high places that enabled me to get her back. It isn't always so easy.


That sure doesn't fall under the "things are fixed" category.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Who said she would be executed?

Ok, you're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I guess my TEDD roster, because I was a trainer and kennel master in the program, was forged.

Believe what you want. I'm done.

ETA: dogs don't rot in kennels. They are worked 5 days a week, groomed, bathed. They are assigned a handler to care for them and there is a kennel master there to ensure every dog is cared for properly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)




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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I am sad and upset that this has turned into an attack thread. To the OP: you posted a good link to a film that can inform all of us who don’t know about this history. Steve and David are two of the most informed, kindest and helpful people on this forum. I’m appalled at the personal attacks. It would be very nice to see an apology for what is obviously a misunderstanding on your part and reading things into posts that aren’t there. I still plan to watch this, in spite of the negativity I’ve seen here.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's a fantastic film! I said that. I encourage everyone to watch it.

The truth is that the terrible things that happened to the dogs in Vietnam don't happen anymore because handlers and concerned citizens spoke up and Congress passed Robby"s Law.

I'm very close to this. I'm involved in the documentary being released to shed light on the TEDD debacle.

I'm involved in finding handlers when their dogs come into disposition.

I'm involved in the current investigation into misconduct.

I just don't like misinformation. I would much rather people contact their congressman about relevant military dog issues than about a situation that was addressed 40 years ago.

I also don't like being told I don't know what I'm talking about when I have first hand knowledge of the situation.

And I didn't attack anyone.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I wasn’t clear. The attacks were from the OP who read things into posts that were not there. They were not from anyone else.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> It would be very nice to see an apology for what is obviously a misunderstanding on your part and reading things into posts that aren’t there.


Why would I apologize to David for telling him that his statement:



David Winners said:


> There are still some major issues in the military dog world, particularly with adoption after the dog is retired


is accurate? Or for paying attention to the TEDD website link he gave, which provides the following info:

"Soliden Technologies took 13 MWDs telling OPMG that they would be used to train for disabled veterans, but they actually dumped them at a Virginia kennel while attempting to sell the dogs to the government of Panama and other countries. Two men, Dean Henderson and Jaime Solis, claimed to be Secret Service agents"

From:

http://justice4tedds.com/the-details/ 

The TEDD website asks the same question I have:

"Thank you for continuing to support our handlers, Congressman Richard Hudson!

'I’ve been screaming and banging on the desk saying, ‘This was wrong. It was mishandled,' Hudson said.

Hudson now says he wants to question the secretary of the U.S. Air Force.

'One question I have: The people who did wrong, are they going to be punished?' Hudson said.”

From:

http://justice4tedds.com/2018/03/14/are-they-going-to-be-punished/

And Strom still can't bring himself to encourage folks to watch the video.



David Winners said:


> I would much rather people contact their congressman about relevant military dog issues than about a situation that was addressed 40 years ago.


Same here. I've never suggested otherwise. That's why I asked you about ways to fix the relevant military dog issues that you brought up.

Political/legal tactics are a rough business. My politically savvy friends tell me--and I believe them--that the only way to stop people in authority from doing wrong is to make bad behavior very costly for them. And making that happen is a lot harder than sending a care package (which is obviously worth doing for other reasons, and which my girlfriend and I will do).


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Your post shows me that you are not understanding why I said what I said. There is no other way to explain that, other than what I already posted, so I have nothing further to say. Maybe you want to go back and reread all the posts here very carefully. You started the thread but you don’t have a right to expect people to only post things that support your position or that you agree with. Once a thread is started it belongs to the forum.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> you don’t have a right to expect people to only post things that support your position or that you agree with.


Of course not and I don't. I have never told people not to post things I disagree with. But others have told me to "just chill" and not post things they disagree with. I think disagreements are often useful and informative. I will never tell people not to post things I disagree with. And I don't get mad or distraught if someone disagrees with me and continues to do so. But others will continue go into a tizzy and tell me to kiss up, shut up, and apologize for daring to disagree with someone. Ain't gonna happen, folks. Anyone who is looking for a toady is banging on the wrong door.

I've been around for a long time and I've never understood why some people cannot stand the fact that someone disagrees with them about something. It never made sense to me, even when I was a kid, and it never will.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There is a huge difference between disagreement vs disrespect / disparagement. The two should never be confused for one and the same. The same can be said about contrived arguments vs debates.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You had accused Steve of discouraging a movie you posted just because he posted a link to the law that was enacted due to the treatment of past war dogs. It is worthy information. David Winners who actually worked with and trained military dogs also talked about how things have changed that they do not abandon military dogs anymore. There is nothing wrong with looking at the improvements made since Vietnam war. For some reason you see this as some forfeit of the people on the gsd forum. Their are movements to improve things that need attention. In the midst of all this you were given information and anyone who wants to contact their representative/congress person support improvements in the military dog program. This is all good information that your post was able to relay but you had transformed into some argument. You then stated that people on here disagree with you and your not a toad. Who is disagreeing with you and what are they disagreeing? I broke this down just so you can see what has been going on here. I’m done though.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jenny720 said:


> things have changed that they do not abandon military dogs anymore.


This didn't happen 20 years ago:

"Contractor DynCorp ended up working at least 3 [retired] MWDs after the US State Department acquired them – these dogs are currently working in Afghanistan."

From:

http://justice4tedds.com/the-details

This didn't happen 20 years ago either:

"Soliden Technologies took 13 MWDs telling OPMG that they would be used to train for disabled veterans, but they actually dumped them at a Virginia kennel while attempting to sell the dogs to the government of Panama and other countries. Two men, Dean Henderson and Jaime Solis, claimed to be Secret Service agents"

From:

http://justice4tedds.com/the-details

Not the same as turning war dogs over to the South Vietnamese army but bad enough.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a huge difference between disagreement vs disrespect / disparagement. The two should never be confused for one and the same. The same can be said about contrived arguments vs debates.


 And of course there's disagreement about what is what. Claiming that I live in a private Idaho, as Strom did, is obviously disrespect/disparagement but of course you would disagree. It's fine with me when you guys do stuff like that because it makes it obvious to lurkers and many posters what the nature of your argument is. And if you think I'm going to burst into tears and stop posting when you do stuff like that--well, once again, you're banging on the wrong door. This stuff didn't bother me when I was a kid and it sure as heck doesn't bother me now that I'm old.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JonRob said:


> And of course there's disagreement about what is what. Claiming that I live in a private Idaho, as Strom did, is obviously disrespect/disparagement but of course you would disagree. It's fine with me when you guys do stuff like that because it makes it obvious to lurkers and many posters what the nature of your argument is. And if you think I'm going to burst into tears and stop posting when you do stuff like that--well, once again, you're banging on the wrong door. This stuff didn't bother me when I was a kid and it sure as heck doesn't bother me now that I'm old.


I wasn't talking to you. Guilty conscience?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

JonRob said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > things have changed that they do not abandon military dogs anymore.
> ...



This why the link was shared this why the advise was to contact your congress person. This is why amendments are trying to be passed. 
This is why they are putting up all the mistakes of the program on their own website. This is why 
as mentioned a documentary is being made by the same person who made black fish and directed Megan Leavey to make people aware.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Good article and while its heartbreaking its not at all surprising to most veterans. Just look how our human soldiers are often treated by the very government they serve. 

I know that laws have been passed to avoid leaving dogs behind but last I heard there was a very large contractor that was somehow getting first pick of the retired dogs, completely bypassing the former handlers. Hopefully theyve fixed this. Either way, a whole heck of alot more needs to be put into doing whats right for all veterans.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a huge difference between disagreement vs disrespect / disparagement. The two should never be confused for one and the same. The same can be said about contrived arguments vs debates.


I know.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > things have changed that they do not abandon military dogs anymore.
> ...


Oh my goodness. Makes it obvious to the lurkers the nature of the argument?

I lurked a little on this thread. My takeaway? Internet arguments aren't that important. Typically a waste of time. If someone treats someone else unfairly usually no one cares. Rarely does anyone who needs to change their mind actually do it. Why it's typically a waste of time. 
The end.

My other takeaway: I was glad to hear from DW how much improvement there is now over Vietnam era, and how we might all be active in trying to cause more improvement. I'd like to think a lot of things have improved since Vietnam!

One more thing I've made note of is Steve Strom posts a lot and has for a long time and he is typically fair, knowledgeable and helpful.

Other people seem to be picking fights over nothing...alll...the...time....

If it gets me kicked off for saying that, I'm fine with it, I always think I should stay off of here and for some reason click on it when I'm bored


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

These dogs were supposed to return to the 1/29th Scout Dog Detachment in Fort Benning, Ga. In 1975, when we left and the dogs should have been brought back, I was a dog instructor at the 1/29th. The whole Detachment, especially the senior NCOs were very distressed with the decision by the Dept of Army to leave those dogs there. Prior to this we had dogs at Benning that had been deployed in Nam and returned stateside. But this was a very sad chapter in our military dog history.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> These dogs were supposed to return to the 1/29th Scout Dog Detachment in Fort Benning, Ga. In 1975, when we left and the dogs should have been brought back, I was a dog instructor at the 1/29th. The whole Detachment, especially the senior NCOs were very distressed with the decision by the Dept of Army to leave those dogs there. Prior to this we had dogs at Benning that had been deployed in Nam and returned stateside. But this was a very sad chapter in our military dog history.


I can't like this post because I don't. I can't reply to it because I don't know what to say. I can't not reply because it deserves acknowledgement.

I wish as humans we would display more humanity, I wish that we lived in a world where neither humans nor animals needed to fight wars.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

astrovan2487 said:


> Good article and while its heartbreaking its not at all surprising to most veterans. Just look how our human soldiers are often treated by the very government they serve.
> 
> I know that laws have been passed to avoid leaving dogs behind but last I heard there was a very large contractor that was somehow getting first pick of the retired dogs, completely bypassing the former handlers. Hopefully theyve fixed this. Either way, a whole heck of alot more needs to be put into doing whats right for all veterans.



Off topic and maybe too political. I will edit the post if anyone requests it.

I'm just one retired soldier with only my experience to draw from.

My government has treated me very well. They encouraged me to get the help I needed, both as an active duty soldier and as a retiree. The medical and psychological care I have received while on active duty and through the VA has been top notch, free, and has always been timely.

My experience with my fellow soldiers of this era has been the same.

Many Vets that came before us had to endure a less than supportive government. They fought the hard fight and got a lot of things changed by bringing them to light and demanding quality health care. 

Nothing is perfect, and we should always strive to make things better. 

As far as misappropriation of retired working dogs, that is being investigated. Some heads have rolled already.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

David, I couldn’t agree more. But your post is missing one thing. The soldiers coming back from Nam were often treated like horrific wild animals. I’m so happy to see this had changed over the years, but listening to my neighbors stories about how crippling it was to even leave the house because of the abuse from fellow citizens that opposed the war. It wasn’t only the dogs that got left behind, it was humanity towards the men and women who fought to make it happen (the women being nurses in this case). We can never go back in time and correct the injustices that already happened, but we can dang sure help them out now. I’ll be posting an update on my neighbor as soon as I hear from him.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

We really REALLY can't veer into political discussion.I come from a military family and my son is currently serving so believe me I've got some storiesWe are required to keep the topic to dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sorry everybody!


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Things are fixed.
> 
> There were a total of 500 active TEDDs at any given time. As of April 2013, none had been KIA.


I guess these war dogs who were KIA don't matter?

"Published: February 25, 2019

Military working dogs have repeatedly proven their worth in combat zones during America’s lengthy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, where their discerning snouts have sniffed out explosive booby traps better than any machine could.

But their work has come at a cost. A recent study found that of an estimated 2,600 war dogs deployed from 2001 through 2013 to those two countries, 92 died, primarily of gunshot wounds and explosions.

Now, a group of veterinarians and medical experts with the Department of Defense is urging funding for a trauma registry for military working dogs like that being used to collate and analyze battle injuries incurred by human warfighters."

From:

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/fund...ries-deaths-of-deployed-working-dogs-1.570387

Here's the study:

http://watermark.silverchair.com/us...UyH4TiICn2Uxm6FA23idDvbOpvcdQFm5S6f1FnCmKNhgY

The causes of death for 71 of these 92 war dogs:

Gunshot wounds 29
Explosion/blast 24
Environmental exposure (heat stress) 9
Drowning 2
Electrocution 2
Blunt trauma, NOSb 2 
Struck by vehicle 2 
Helicopter crash 1 

Also:

"Published: December 4, 2018

KABUL, Afghanistan — A U.S. military working dog was killed during a recent clash in Afghanistan in which an American soldier also died, military officials confirmed Tuesday after the dog’s unofficial biography began circulating on social media.

The dog, named Maiko, and Sgt. Leandro A.S. Jasso — who was assigned to the 75th Ranger Regiment’s 2nd Battalion and whose death was previously reported — were fatally wounded during a raid against al-Qaida militants in southern Nimruz province on Nov. 24, military officials said.

The 7-year-old dog was leading Rangers into a compound when at least one militant fired at him, revealing the militant’s position, which the Rangers then targeted, according to a biography of the dog.

“The actions of Maiko directly saved the life of his handler ... and other Rangers involved during the clearance,” the biography said."

From:

http://www.stripes.com/news/army-ranger-dog-who-died-in-afghanistan-saved-soldiers-lives-1.559190

David, I understand your loyalty to an organization that has been--and should be--very good to you. But it's important to keep the facts straight about the war dogs who sacrifice so much.

I wonder if these dogs would do it if they understood the risks they were taking, or that some folks would pretend they didn't make these sacrifices, including the ultimate sacrifice?

As for Robby's Law--anyone who thinks that just passing a law fixes a problem needs to read the Inspector General's Report on how the military disregarded this law:

http://media.defense.gov/2018/Mar/01/2001884674/-1/-1/1/DODIG-2018-081_FINAL_REDACTED.PDF


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Things are fixed.
> ...


You are intentionally removing parts of my posts so they are out of context.

Do not put words in my mouth or elude to my feelings.

I will not discuss anything with you.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Things are fixed.
> ...


How could you possibly quote this guy as if he made a statement that war dogs killed in action don't matter? 

That doesn't make any sense at all. Obviously he cares very much about his own dogs that he was partnered with and other MWD. 

I would be willing to bet there is no one on this forum who thinks any dog killed in action, military or police, doesn't matter. We are here because we love dogs!!

I'm happy we are at a time where people do fundraisers to supply k9s with safety vests. I am happy we are at a time where people recognize these dogs should be cared for and offered retirement homes esp. With a handler they know.

And Cliffson just said something to the effect that everyone was upset that those dogs were left overseas but I don't think they had any power to do anything about it.

Nobody has said at any point that the dogs don't matter, except you!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

JonRob said:


> I wonder if these dogs would do it if they understood the risks they were taking, or that some folks would pretend they didn't make these sacrifices, including the ultimate sacrifice?



Is there a right or wrong answer to your question?.......I'd like to know before I answer....don't want to get you going......




SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SuperG said:


> JonRob said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if these dogs would do it if they understood the risks they were taking, or that some folks would pretend they didn't make these sacrifices, including the ultimate sacrifice?
> ...


You know, I have a nearly 13 y/o dog who put me before herself for the better part of an 11 year career as a medical service dog. And I can say with near certainty that as much capacity as a dog has to make a choice like that, she made it in spades. Complete with jumping out the window of an RV in the pitch dark when she had already begun to lose her eyesight. She did that because I was out there and she alerted and intended to finish her alert and task jumping blindly into the dark from way higher than was safe esp at her then age. She did not hesitate a little. She never hesitated to do ANYtHING for me no matter the cost to herself. I did not compell her to do that. That is who she is.

And she is almost 13 now and lots of stuff going wrong and I am sitting in the waiting room at the referral hospital gonna leave here a thousand dollars lighter but there is nothing I wouldn't do for her either. I try all the time to pay her back for everything she did for me. I bet the MWD handlers feel the same and do the same when they can. To suggest otherwise is beyond insulting

Her job wasn't as dangerous for sure. But she made sacrifices for her work, and she did so because it was her calling and all she ever wanted to do


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> . To suggest otherwise is beyond insulting





I'll assume that was not directed at me......




SuperG


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> How could you possibly quote this guy as if he made a statement that war dogs killed in action don't matter?


Because he made a statement that suggested that none of these dogs are being KIA. That is of course absurd so I checked it out. And of course they are being KIA, and that should be emphasized. It is emphasized by folks who think these dogs matter more than words can say.

Having war dogs matter to you means you don't just type out gooey sentiments and accept questionable statements that trivialize the sacrifices these dogs make and the way they are treated. You do some work and look up the facts. And you start looking into effective ways to fix the problems. Because what was done in the past hasn't been nearly enough. Did you bother to read the study? Or the Inspector General's Report? They won't make you comfortable if you really care about these dogs. I guess it's a lot more fun to rant at someone who presents the unpleasant facts.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Is there a right or wrong answer to your question?.......I'd like to know before I answer....don't want to get you going......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll bet you Boise there's not.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Just for the **** of it, because I know better than to get involved, I bet you anything some/most of these dogs would continue to do their duties happily, even knowing how much they may have to sacrifice. After all, a lot of people know exactly what they may end up sacrificing when they willingly go into war, charge into burning buildings, go into gunfire to save complete strangers. Lots of people are willing to give their lives to protect their country, their friends, their family. I couldn’t be more grateful to people willing to go to war to protect my freedom. I can only imagine dogs, knowing the full consequences, have the same kind of courage.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

And...you can't tell me they DON'T understand when they've dpne something heroic and changed or saved a life, and the gratitude and love their person has for them for it. They know.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Is there a right or wrong answer to your question?.......I'd like to know before I answer....don't want to get you going......
> 
> 
> SuperG


Which is why I stopped posting. Intentional flames don’t win people over, they only cause the rest of us to stop participating. I have some things I would like to say but won’t because I’m not going to go there again. I am so over that person’s bad attitude.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JonRob said:


> I guess these war dogs who were KIA don't matter?
> 
> "Published: February 25, 2019
> 
> ...


Now you are just being nuts! The primary purpose of these dogs is to save lives! Clearly there will be loses in the course of performing that job. 
The Vietnam issue was tragic and unforgivable. It will never happen again and that has been and continues to be a focus point. 
If you think for one second that these dogs would not protect and serve of their own free will you know nothing about them. And if you think that the handlers and trainers are blind to the willingness to place themselves ahead of their handlers then you know nothing about being a dog handler. You owe David and all the other men you insult an apology.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> The primary purpose of these dogs is to save lives! Clearly there will be loses in the course of performing that job.


Exactly. Which is why I looked up the facts which show that these dogs are being KIA when David suggested that none of them were or are.

But why would I have any interest in trying to convince people who would rather spew insults than read the study and the Inspector General's Report? I don't. I'm posting for the people who will read these and give some serious thought to how they can make the changes that are clearly needed. These folks likely won't be posting but it doesn't matter.



Sabis mom said:


> If you think for one second that these dogs would not protect and serve of their own free will you know nothing about them.


I'm not arrogant enough to think I know what they would do. No one knows what they would do if they truly understood the risks and how badly many of them would be treated. Would the Vietnam war dogs have served if they had known that the reward for their sacrifices would consist of being abandoned to horrible fates?

Frankly, if the dogs knew and had a choice about being war dogs, I would hope they would say no. We don't deserve them.

I will continue to post facts as I find them, and other folks will continue to respond by spewing out insults. But I'm not posting for them. I'm posting for those who want to know the facts.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

For clarification.

My post was about TEDDs during a certain timeframe. I'm giving first hand knowledge. Don't imply that I'm lying about KIA MWDs. 

And I don't see any reports on CWDs, DEA dogs, SFMPCs, other Coalition Forces dogs, ANA dogs, ANP dogs, NDS dogs, EDDs from Africa.

Does that mean you don't care about them?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> My post was about TEDDs during a certain timeframe. I'm giving first hand knowledge. Don't imply that I'm lying about KIA MWDs.


David, this is what you posted:



David Winners said:


> There were a total of 500 active TEDDs at any given time. As of April 2013, none had been KIA.


The fact that you say nothing about any other MWDs being KIA suggests that none of them were or are. I have no idea what your motives are for making a statement like this are. Also, how did you have firsthand knowledge of 500 dogs?



David Winners said:


> And I don't see any reports on CWDs, DEA dogs, SFMPCs, other Coalition Forces dogs, ANA dogs, ANP dogs, NDS dogs, EDDs from Africa.
> 
> Does that mean you don't care about them?


It means I haven't found any such reports, although I will continue to look. Perhaps you can post the links to these reports?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Guys WHAT is the argument here!? Everybody loves and honors the dogs. No one wants them to die. Nobody lies about them dying or not dying.

I guess JonRob's main point at this time is that the MWD can't make a conscious choice to risk their lives or not like humans can by enlisting or not although unless I am mistaken due to the draft, Vietnam era men and dogs had no choice.

I can only assume JonRob that I understand that you do not want dogs used by police or military period. How about SAR? That can be dangerous.

What else? Do you eat meat? Are you a member of PETA ? ?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

David Winners said:


> For clarification.
> 
> *My post was about TEDDs during a certain timeframe*. I'm giving first hand knowledge. Don't imply that I'm lying about KIA MWDs.
> 
> ...





JonRob said:


> David, this is what you posted:
> 
> The fact that you say nothing about any other MWDs being KIA suggests that none of them were or are. I have no idea what your motives are for making a statement like this are. Also, how did you have firsthand knowledge of 500 dogs?
> 
> It means I haven't found any such reports, although I will continue to look. Perhaps you can post the links to these reports?


Dude, seriously??? He was specifically referring to TEDD dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Sabis mom said:
> 
> 
> > The primary purpose of these dogs is to save lives! Clearly there will be loses in the course of performing that job.
> ...


To what end? Some dogs die in action. Nobody ever disputed that. David Winners made a statement about a particular group of dogs and you ran with your assumption of his ulterior motive which by the way I don't believe existed.

Nobody wants the dogs to die. Nobody wants soliders to die. I think everybody on this thread agreed that we were glad major improvements were made and Davic Winners himself suggested some ways to make our voices heard to continue improvements unless I am remembering wrong.

So again, what in the world are you arguing about JonRob? Other than that as best as I can understand you don't think dogs should be used in military or police applications because they may be killed in action.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> due to the draft, Vietnam era men and dogs had no choice.


Of course the men had a choice. Many of them moved to Canada in a hurry when they got that draft notice. The dogs had no choice at all.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Do you eat meat?


Yup. Lots. Buffalo meat--it's healthy, buffalo don't get mad cow disease, and the rancher I get it from slaughters them humanely (no shipping, quick shot to the head at the ranch). Hard to slaughter a buffalo any other way because they will kill you if you screw with them,



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Are you a member of PETA


I despise PETA. They kill just about every animal they get their hands on and steal pets off people's property, drag them to their kill vans, and kill them.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

http://www.nathanwinograd.com/category/peta/

So what do I think about MWDs and police dogs? 

I think it's a very hard question and there is no good answer.

I think it's unbelievably arrogant for someone to claim that they know exactly what these dogs would choose if they understood the risks they face and the chance of abuse or abandonment as thanks for their sacrifices. No one knows.

I think it's rotten that MWDs are dragged into our wars.

I think it's rotten that some dogs are dumped into horrible conditions or killed when they retire.

I think it's rotten that some police officers will send a dog into a very dangerous situation when there is no good reason to do so, getting the dog killed or badly injured.

I think we don't deserve these dogs.

I think if we demand this kind of service from them, we owe them the best treatment, and we have no business just sitting around on our behinds assuming that everything is just fine or that someone else is fixing everything up.

I think there's no point in carrying about how we all just loooooove the doggies so much when you can't be bothered to get your facts straight and read an important MWD study and an important Inspector General's Report about how the military refused to follow Robby's Law.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SuperG said:


> I'll assume that was not directed at me......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


SuperG definitely not directed at you...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

JonRob said:


> Of course the men had a choice. Many of them moved to Canada in a hurry when they got that draft notice. The dogs had no choice at all.


That is absurd. Are you a Vietnam war historian? It’s my understanding if someone fled to Canada after receiving a draft notice, they were breaking the law and risking that they could never go home again. It was an option but not a good choice or a legal one.



> I think it's unbelievably arrogant for someone to claim that they know exactly what these dogs would choose if they understood the risks they face and the chance of abuse or abandonment as thanks for their sacrifices. No one knows.


And yet you are accusing people of saying or thinking things they never posted. What kind of arrogance does it take to put words or thoughts into someone’s head when you have absolutely no idea what they think? I said I was done with this thread and I am. Please don’t bother to respond back to me as I won’t read it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I have mixed feelings about MWD’s. For me, it’s like the lessor of two evils, and no one wins. As an animal lover, it breaks my heart to know dogs were lost in the line of duty, yet at the same time, that single dog can provide life to a unit of men risking their lives to save our freedom and fight for our country, which I can’t do personally. 

Is it right, moral, ethical? It’s a fine line. But if I was given the choice to send Lyka (who is my entire heart and soul) overseas to save even one man/woman fighting for my country, knowing that she would likely die in the line of service, I would send her. Not because I don’t value her, but because I value the men and women who risk their own lives in an attempt to save ours. And I couldn’t think of a better way for her to die, serving our (once) great country.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Many of you are getting your "buttons pushed" and feeding the beast.......




SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > due to the draft, Vietnam era men and dogs had no choice.
> ...


That's a big statement, that police send a dog into a very dangerous situation when there is no good reason to do so. What police officer. What situation? You seem big on research papers with bibliographies and all so I'd like to know exactly what you are referring to there.

I agree they deserve the best from us. The dog who worked for me got just that. I bought her her own dog preserve where she could hike on her own land, swim in her own pond. I have gotten up in the night with her probably 35 out of the last 40 nights because she can't hold it all night anymore. My kitchen looks like an ER right now, she is getting fluids twice a day by me plus a bunch of other stuff but this way she does not have to be hospitalized which is better for her because all she wants is to be with me. And the place she would need to be hospitalized is hours away, most of our local vets, mine included, don't have staff past 6pm I drove about 5 hours today to get her to a specialist. I was up at 4am this morning to be sure she was comfortable and not crashing.

Don't underestimate what people will do for their dogs.

By the way, what facts did I get wrong? I couldn't be bothered to get my facts straight, what facts? I said things are better than they were in vietnam era. You disagree?

So I'm arrogant because I absolutely believe my dog chose to work for me. That's fine. She thrived on it. Sure she can't reason like a human but I know my dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SuperG said:


> Many of you are getting your "buttons pushed" and feeding the beast.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are totally right. And basically banging my head against a brick wall. Good night.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > How could you possibly quote this guy as if he made a statement that war dogs killed in action don't matter?
> ...


Oops I didn't log off. Besides brow beating a bunch of ppl who do care...and accusing us of sitting on our butts and doing nothing, what have YOU done on behalf of the MWDs??


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There seems to be a lot of distortion on this thread. It sounds like you are placing yourself as the shining star on this thread where everyone else are selfish dog haters in the greatest denial. The only one that appears bitter and angry is you. Have you contacted your representative? I think your efforts should be aimed elsewhere and you were given information -the page posted with the resolution information and to contact your representative. It is at least a start of being more productive.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hconres43/text sign up to track and contact your local representative.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Dogs didn’t sign up to be a tool of the government, people did. Would they do it willingly because we asked? Of course. They are dogs. The embodiment of loyalty, love and friendship. More than that. Let’s all appreciate and love those, both human and animal kind, that have given the ultimate sacrifices for the rest of us.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> These dogs were supposed to return to the 1/29th Scout Dog Detachment in Fort Benning, Ga. In 1975, when we left and the dogs should have been brought back, I was a dog instructor at the 1/29th. The whole Detachment, especially the senior NCOs were very distressed with the decision by the Dept of Army to leave those dogs there. Prior to this we had dogs at Benning that had been deployed in Nam and returned stateside. But this was a very sad chapter in our military dog history.


Was there any kind of not for the public explanation you ever heard?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The truth is, we force our will upon dogs everyday. We domesticated dogs. It wasn't free will on the part of the wolves that were first forced or coerced into a behavior that was unnatural for them. It isn't free will that we take advantage of the need for a species to propagate during selective breeding. It isn't free will that we take puppies away from their mothers at 8 weeks and distribute them to someone that neither the puppy or the mother picked. It isn't free will we use when shaping behaviors. We take advantage of the natural needs of the dog and drives necessary for survival to shape their behavior into something we deem desirable. Herding sheep, picking something up off the floor, going outside to defecate, not barking at things we deem inappropriate, walking politely on a leash; these are all behaviors that are shaped against a dog's will through coercion. 

You can't really stand on the idea that a military dog doesn't have a choice when virtually no dog has a choice. 

It is apparent to me that dogs like to be around us. They are the most domesticated of animals and display symbiotic behaviors not found in any other animal. We take advantage of their basic needs to get them to do what we want. They give us joy and perform tasks that we ask because it is beneficial to them.

Just because one job is different from another doesn't change the fact that the dog is doing something not of their own free will. They may want to do that job because of our manipulation of their drives and need to survive, but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't choose their own fate.

Yes, being a military or LE dog does carry some inherent risk. So does riding in the car, crossing the street, going hiking, dock diving, doing agility, hunting, retrieving, playing 2 ball, going into the back yard where the pond is located. All these activities include risk. The level of risk you are willing to accept for your dog is a personal thing. The dog has no way to understand the risk involved in any of these activities or to object to any risk that they may feel besides non-compliance, but we choose to make the decision for them and overcome their unwillingness.

Is the risk worth the reward? Obviously, some organizations are willing to risk the life of a dog to help mitigate the risk to humans. I would like to discourage people from armchair handling a K9. Unless you have been there and done that, and you have all the information at hand that the handler used to make the decision to use or not use their K9 in some capacity, you really have no business throwing stones. Nor do you have a frame of reference for reasonable behavior on the part of a K9 handler.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> These dogs were supposed to return to the 1/29th Scout Dog Detachment in Fort Benning, Ga. In 1975, when we left and the dogs should have been brought back, I was a dog instructor at the 1/29th. The whole Detachment, especially the senior NCOs were very distressed with the decision by the Dept of Army to leave those dogs there. Prior to this we had dogs at Benning that had been deployed in Nam and returned stateside. But this was a very sad chapter in our military dog history.


I am sorry you had to endure that. Such a tragedy. I can't imagine how you guys were feeling at that time.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Herding sheep, picking something up off the floor, going outside to defecate, not barking at things we deem inappropriate, walking politely on a leash; these are all behaviors that are shaped against a dog's will through coercion.


How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.



David Winners said:


> Yes, being a military or LE dog does carry some inherent risk. So does riding in the car, crossing the street, going hiking, dock diving, doing agility, hunting, retrieving, playing 2 ball, going into the back yard where the pond is located. All these activities include risk.


Comparing what war dogs risk and what many suffer to the risk of crossing the street is obscene. No further comment is needed.



David Winners said:


> I would like to discourage people from armchair handling a K9. Unless you have been there and done that, and you have all the information at hand that the handler used to make the decision to use or not use their K9 in some capacity, you really have no business throwing stones. Nor do you have a frame of reference for reasonable behavior on the part of a K9 handler.


Sorry, David, wrong country. This is America, where we have not only the freedom but the obligation to question those in authority, including K9 handlers, when things don't seem right. Today is an especially good day to think about how important our freedoms and obligations are.

BTW David, why in earth did you agree to be a moderator when this means you have to be exposed to viewpoints you disagree with, which is something you seem to be unable to tolerate? This is not the first time you've told people not to say things you disagree with. The whole point of a forum is to present information and different viewpoints,

Your post has been helpful in one respect though. It's helped me understand something. The casual attitudes that, heck, we force dogs to do everything so it's no big deal to force them to be war dogs, and besides, what's the difference between crossing the street and living in a war zone, it's all risky--these attitudes make it totally clear why so many of these dogs are treated so badly.

Even if we support the use of war dogs in some circumstances, we should never be comfortable with it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)




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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I guess persuasion would be a better term. Coercion speaks of force, which is not always the case. We effect the feelings of the dog which in turn effects their behavior in a way we desire. And I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.

You can certainly question anything. It's important to remember your frame of reference. Having been part of several investigations involving dog teams, there is an incredible amount of time spent educating parties on the behavior of dog teams and how they make decisions. Typically this process takes days before a panel can grasp how a seemingly simple situation can present itself from the perspective of the handler. That is how a jury or panel looks at this type of situation, from the perspective of each party involved. 

The only person I have specifically told not to say something is you. You were putting words in my mouth, quoting me out of context and eluding to my feelings. 

My statement above is simply to discourage others from jumping on the bash cops type mentality an to consider that without all the information and the right perspective, you can't really judge something fairly. This was basically a response to your comment about cops sending dogs into dangerous situations without provocation. I am paraphrasing here, but that is basically what I got from your statement.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> You know, I have a nearly 13 y/o dog who put me before herself for the better part of an 11 year career as a medical service dog. And I can say with near certainty that as much capacity as a dog has to make a choice like that, she made it in spades. Complete with jumping out the window of an RV in the pitch dark when she had already begun to lose her eyesight. She did that because I was out there and she alerted and intended to finish her alert and task jumping blindly into the dark from way higher than was safe esp at her then age. She did not hesitate a little. She never hesitated to do ANYtHING for me no matter the cost to herself. I did not compell her to do that. That is who she is.
> 
> And she is almost 13 now and lots of stuff going wrong and I am sitting in the waiting room at the referral hospital gonna leave here a thousand dollars lighter but there is nothing I wouldn't do for her either. I try all the time to pay her back for everything she did for me. I bet the MWD handlers feel the same and do the same when they can. To suggest otherwise is beyond insulting
> 
> Her job wasn't as dangerous for sure. But she made sacrifices for her work, and she did so because it was her calling and all she ever wanted to do



I'm REALLY way behind on this thread but I'm replying to this, in agreement.
I think dogs are pretty selfless, exactly because they have no concept of "identity/self" to be selfish. I've only ever owned working breeds, and believe it's true in their case--They just want to please us, help us, do things with us, BE with us. 

I think MWDs were and are happy to do their jobs. They are loved by and love their handlers (mostly), and in the case of the film, at least one dog under fire and while injured, pulled his handler to safety- obviously having some concept of the dire nature of their position. They certainly understand the concept of danger, look at how many dogs have saved people from burning buildings, or many other things dogs have heroically done for us their family.

David knows this better than most, as he had an incredible partnership with Fama. 
We (the forum in general) didn't, Jonrob. You didn't either. 

Unless we were in his situation deployed in action with a dog, none of us can truly understand how vital it is for a dog and it's handler and everyone even remotely connected with the scene, to do the job right, or people die. That is a bond that few people really get, although some of us have had dogs do heroic things for us. I absolutely think if the dogs were given a choice, they would still decide to do the jobs we gave them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think that we sometimes forget that domesticated dogs were developed and manipulated for our benefit and use. I love my dogs, but at the end of the day they are dogs. If the use of dogs in the military, law enforcement or private sector to protect, detect or deter helps preserve human life, well, that is imo necessary. I absolutely believe that we have a responsibility to treat ALL the creatures in our care with the utmost respect, but I also think that we need to stop treating them like humans. Dogs do not perceive things the same way we do and to suggest otherwise is insulting to them. 
We have seen ample evidence that dogs of any breed will run headlong into danger to assist the humans they adore. Of their own free will. No training required. 

Countless stories of dogs going above and beyond to return to, protect and defend those they love with no regard for their own safety. They do it because they can.


The war dogs left behind were a clear tragedy, one that we learned from at huge cost to the dogs _and the men who had to leave them_! Their story should be told and studied, being careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.
No one made the same mistake again, any mistakes following that were new ones that taught new lessons. As humans we only learn from our mistakes. It is impossible to foretell every situation and all we can ever do is use past history and our best judgement to go forward.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cvamoca said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > You know, I have a nearly 13 y/o dog who put me before herself for the better part of an 11 year career as a medical service dog. And I can say with near certainty that as much capacity as a dog has to make a choice like that, she made it in spades. Complete with jumping out the window of an RV in the pitch dark when she had already begun to lose her eyesight. She did that because I was out there and she alerted and intended to finish her alert and task jumping blindly into the dark from way higher than was safe esp at her then age. She did not hesitate a little. She never hesitated to do ANYtHING for me no matter the cost to herself. I did not compell her to do that. That is who she is.
> ...


There is no doubt that a MWD loves the work. They don't have a sense of duty that can be called upon to motivate them to do something difficult. Bite work is one thing, but tracking or detection is work that they need to love. If they don't want to work, you really can't make them. They will run around, but they won't search.

There is a reason bomb dogs, in particular, have to have off the charts hunt drive. Imagine running around, breathing through your nose, actively searching, with your respiration rate at 3-5 times normal, for miles. Then searching 20 buildings, then searching the entire route back to the trucks or birds or safety.

Every day for a year.

I know that Fama just wanted to do whatever I was doing. She would work all day and/or night, or chill on my bed and play Skyrim. As long as it wasn't raining, she was always ready to go.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


>


I forgot all about this song.???


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> https://youtu.be/UE6iAjEv9dQ



:rofl:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When you got my kinda stacks! Lol.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

David Winners said:


> I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.


If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.



David Winners said:


> Having been part of several investigations involving dog teams, there is an incredible amount of time spent educating parties on the behavior of dog teams and how they make decisions. Typically this process takes days before a panel can grasp how a seemingly simple situation can present itself from the perspective of the handler.


"Several" investigations? That's it? You have no idea how most investigations are conducted. Given the atrocities involving dogs and people that regularly surface in the media, it's no wonder body cams are increasingly becoming required for police officers. They often show that the officer did right BTW. But without a public outcry, there often is no investigation or only a sham investigation. And this isn't cop bashing. My grandfather and great grandfather were both police officers. Nothing infuriated my grandfather more than bad behavior by cops, and if body cams had been around in his day he would have moved heaven and earth to require them in his department.

And, yeah, when I read about a retired police K9 living in a filthy hellhole behind a sheriff's house while the sheriff decides when he's going to shoot him, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer whose backyard has the buried bodies of his three former police K9s that were shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about a police K9 officer who deliberately left his K9 in his car with the AC running while he spent an hour in the shooting range, never once checked on the dog, and finally finished up at the shooting range and found his dog dead of heatstroke because the AC failed, yeah, I'll question that.

When I read about police sending a police K9 after some mope of a car thief who was running away and, as the police admitted, was not threatening anyone, and the dog is shot to death, yeah, I'll question that.



David Winners said:


> You were putting words in my mouth, quoting me out of context and eluding to my feelings.


Nope. The only feeling I mentioned was your apparent strong loyalty to the military which has been very good to you. If you do not in fact feel this loyalty, you are free to make that clear. I have not put words in your mouth or quoted you out of context. People do this with my posts all the time BTW, and I don't even bother to respond. I certainly don't tell them not to do this or not to say anything else. If they want to misrepresent things, fine.

But David, this complaint from you is a bit odd. In one of your posts, you falsely claimed that I said you lied. I didn't. I have questioned some statements in your posts that seem to be factually incorrect. That doesn't mean you lied. You could be simply misinformed or careless about checking your facts. I don't care what the reason is. I just want correct information.

Here's my all-time favorite from you, David. I never posted a single negative word about your dog Fama. This is what I did post about her:



JonRob said:


> Fama was a truly awesome dog. My girlfriend and I loved your stories about her. They made us laugh, and, well, when we heard she had crossed over, that made us cry. And we are not exactly the weepy type.
> 
> When you do write your book about her, we will be the first to buy it.
> 
> ...


I know you read my post because you responded (appropriately) to it. Then you decided it was intolerable that I disagreed with you and some other posters, and this became your response:



David Winners said:


> You think I had a terrible family dog because she was possessive, aggressive and had the inclination to bite things and people.
> 
> Just don't bash my dog because you don't understand her. It's offensive.


I figure there's no way to have any kind of rational conversation with someone who flies off the handle like this when someone compliments his dog. Or with his fan club. And I have dogs to train. So this is my last post on this for a while. I will post factual and legal MWD updates as I find them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Jax08 I can’t stop laughing. Thank you!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

JonRob said:


> How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.





JonRob said:


> If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.


The term in herding is "pressure", which can mean anything from a raised eyebrow to a very real correction. Herding inserts control on the dog, essentially interrupting the canine prey cycle and re-wiring the end result. 

Eye, Stalk, Chase, Kill, Eat - becomes - Eye, Stalk, _Herding_. 

Even the most talented and biddable dogs are put under a considerable amount of pressure over the course of learning. Through deliberate breeding, we have shaped the gripping behavior of some dogs, and we as handlers then have to lay down rules regarding when it's ok to grip (bite), where on the animal is ok to grip (bite), and when it is not ok to put teeth anywhere near the animal. 

The innate prey cycle has none of those rules. Those are human rules, and the dog has to acquiesce if it is going to be useful. While it is correct that you cannot force any dog to herd, it is equally correct to say that we impose our will on them, to accomplish tasks _of *our *design, according to *our *rules_ - not theirs.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Uh oh. Time to re-boot the Mac and search out a few new studies.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JonRob said:


> If you ever get any experience with sheep herding dogs with the right genetics you will learn that they ecstatically choose their herding jobs out of free will.
> 
> "Several" investigations? That's it? You have no idea how most investigations are conducted. Given the atrocities involving dogs and people that regularly surface in the media, it's no wonder body cams are increasingly becoming required for police officers. They often show that the officer did right BTW. But without a public outcry, there often is no investigation or only a sham investigation. And this isn't cop bashing. My grandfather and great grandfather were both police officers. Nothing infuriated my grandfather more than bad behavior by cops, and if body cams had been around in his day he would have moved heaven and earth to require them in his department.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

@Jax08 If I'm ever unable to figure out that its "Me", I'm counting on you to point it out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> @Jax08 If I'm ever unable to figure out that its "Me", I'm counting on you to point it out.


I got your back, my friend. :wink2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JonRob said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I never said a dog couldn't love it's job, just that it didn't choose it out of free will.
> ...


Well here is a striking difference. You say "when I read about" over and over. So basically you read about this stuff on the internet. Others on this thread actually handled and trained MWDs. Big difference. One of you knows what you are talking about and the other one just read about some stuff on the internet.

I asked you for specifics a long time ago and you haven't responded. Besides insulting a MED handler who loved and cared for his dog in her retirement and worjed hard to get her back.. what have YOU done to benefit these dogs JonRob? 

And I'd still like to know your actual proof of cops sending their dogs to die for no reason. 

And if that happened one time, legitimately, that warrants belittling every police k9 handler out there?? I don't think so.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wait a minute you said the herding dogs ecstatically choose their jobs of free will...

I thought your whole position was that is was arrogamt to think dogs could choose or that we could tell if they had chosen??? Help me out here


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

JonRob said:


> How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.
> 
> Comparing what war dogs risk and what many suffer to the risk of crossing the street is obscene. No further comment is needed.
> 
> ...


As I understand it, the moderators in these forums can boot you at will for being disruptive and any number of reasons. At the very least, they can censor you. I've had my words changed. The fact that you're still here to write out your responses, proves that he (and other moderators) is "tolerating" your views. So your point that he "is unable to tolerate" is moot.

I don't have a horse in this race. I don't know DW (nor you) from boo. But all I (and everyone else in here) see is you being the "irrational" one. You gotta let it go, kid. Ten pages of this s is enough. You started this thread...that was a good thing. Then it took a turn for the worse when you decided to attack someone that you misread/misunderstood. Don't serve your ego anymore, let it go.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tc68 said:


> JonRob said:
> 
> 
> > How unfortunate that you are apparently unaware of non-coercive methods of dog training. As for sheep herding, this is instinctive behavior that dogs with the genetics for it do joyfully and willingly. We shape that behavior through training but we don't force the dog to herd, as anyone who has trained sheep herding dogs knows.
> ...


Well said!!


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