# Shock Collar training



## CorShepherd (Jun 20, 2012)

I assume this is probably a very opinionated and sensitive topic, so going to throw a quick disclaimer here before I get to my actual post. Please try not to be rude when replying.

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I understand what a shock collar is (not going to mask it with a pretty name), I've already bought one (but haven't used it yet), and I understand the risks involved. Some view it as cruel and inhumane, but are the alternatives better? Choking, pronging, and jerking can also be harmful.

I already shocked myself with the collar on the lowest setting intentionally so I know what my dog is feeling. I am not approaching this matter lightly, which is why I am doing my homework and research before doing a full training regimen.
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Primary problems I am trying to fix:

*Harassment/bullying of other dogs at the dog park.* This is primarily in the form of constant in-the-dogs-face barking with the goal of getting the dog to run for a chase. It is non-aggressive, but it sometimes makes other dog owners uneasy and the constant barking just plain irritates others.

*Obsession with small animals.* When visiting friends or family, I like to bring my dog. But she gets fixated on my friends rabbit, or my familys cats. I think the cats she don't do any harm to because they defend themselves. But if she got to the rabbit, I fear she would kill it.

Now, so far in my research it seems the best way to start is to get the dog used to the collar, by putting it on without using it. Otherwise she will learn that she doesn't have to behave when the collar is off. Some also say to keep the remote out of sight at all times so they don't associate the remote (and consequently you) with the shock. I imagine always having the remote with you would accomplish the same goal.

The next steps seems to be reinforcing already learned behaviors such as sit and come. To do this, the plan is to ask them to do the command, and shock them until they comply.

One article starts with the recall (Dr. P's Dog Training: The Electronic Collar), by shocking them without a command, but showing the dog the shock stops when they approach the trainer. To avoid the dog becoming a "velcro", he then teaches sit, and then sit-stay.

Other methods seem to just simply start with re-enforcing already learned commands, and shocking until they comply.

*I'm not sure what is truly the best way to introduce the dog to the shock collar, and I am looking for input on this.*

After re-enforcing already-learned commands, the next big step is the dog park. This I think will be the hardest and I am looking for the most input on.

The problem is we'll enter the park, or another dog will enter the park, and after quick initial greetings, she'll pick a dog to bark at (whichever gives the most reaction), and will bark and follow incessantly. She will also bark in the face of any dog trying to retrieve a toy, causing that dog to stop trying to retrieve the toy (and killing everyone's fun). 

I can tell her leave it and walk to the other side of the park all day, but she eventually will go back to that dog, or just find someone else to harass.

I'm not sure at what point I should be shocking her in this process, and if I should be using tones as a warning, or reserve tones as a reward noise. Some barking is ok. 

Should I be tying a command "leave it" to the shock?
How do I not make her entirely afraid of barking at the dog park, or attempting to play in general?

We've been going about once a week for the past year, so she strongly associates it with playtime, and I don't want to affect that.

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As for harassment of small animals, my plan is to shock her when she gets near the rabbit cage, or shock her when I tell her to leave it.

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading, and thanks for any tips.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Contact Lou Castle or find a trainer to help you. If you correct him while he is looking at other dogs, he could associate the correction with the dog instead of his behavior and you could potentially make him dog aggressive.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Here is a good site that should help you get started. Also check out Lou's message board: Home


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I agree with everyone else contact LouCastle. He is very helpful. Also I wouldn't start by training corrections. I would start with getting a good recall first. 


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## CorShepherd (Jun 20, 2012)

Thanks for pointing to Lou Castle... surprised I didn't find this in my google searches!


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

The shock collar, just like the prong collar is an excellent tool when used correctly. In the hands of a common sense trainer, neither are inhumane and both will get outstanding results fast.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I just ordered an e-collar for my boy as well, I have thoroughly read Lou Castles articles though, and definitely recommend you do the same. I also second starting with the recall.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*- Harassment/bullying of other dogs at the dog park*

*Your dog is a bully, and is attempting to dominate the other dogs, if you are going to take your dog to "doggie parks" you have to expect this.*

*I would never take my dogs to a doggie park for a number of reasons.*


*- Obsession with small animals*

*Your dog has a high "Prey Drive", chase the rabbit for its dinner*

*You don't require an e-collar for these problems, all you need to do is, number one- avoid going to doggy parks, number two- train your dog in basic obedience, a long line and a choke chain will solve these issues.*

*You will only get as much, as you put in to the training of your dog. E-collars can be a valuable tool if used correctly. *

*Most times they are used by people who are too lazy to take the time to properly train their dog, and "generally speaking" the use of E-collars should be restricted to working dogs. *


*Kim*


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Thanks for the support from those of you who have used my site and methods, and who have recommended both. 

CorShepherd I'm right here if you have any questions that the protcols don't answer. BTW the article you linked to on Dr. P's website, is mine.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I have used Lou's protocol for recall and it is wonderful! And we have had great success with sitting at a distance. I still don't trust Stella off leash when there might be other strange dogs around, but in the yard it has helped with property line lunging, barking etc. I HIGHLY recommend Lou's training methods.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

You said you shocked yourself on low so you know what it does. Id suggest setting on hi and shocking yourself. That way youll respect the tool and know never to turn it up too high. I had been to a trainer and he showed me that low setting doesnt hurt stuff, when I got my einstein I put it on high and its like a taser, now im extra careful not to turn it up too high.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sometimes you have to go higher when the dog is in drive. Theres a reason they give you higher settings.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

This is interesting. Having failed to train the dog we resort to using a teaser?

Having changed nothing else, ie same poor dog handling and knowledge, why do we believe we will be successful with an ecollar?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

NTexFoster said:


> This is interesting. Having failed to train the dog we resort to using a teaser?
> 
> Having changed nothing else, ie same poor dog handling and knowledge, why do we believe we will be successful with an ecollar?


Nothing wrong with a properly used E Collar. Not all tools work equally well for everyone. Sometimes simply changing the tool used can empower the handler, change their mindset and result in success. Not saying this is the case here but I like the E Collar its not a tool of last resort, its a tool..plain and simple.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

NTexFoster said:


> This is interesting. Having failed to train the dog we resort to using a teaser?
> 
> Having changed nothing else, ie same poor dog handling and knowledge, why do we believe we will be successful with an ecollar?


Nothing can compare with a wireless correction for the named problems. An ecollar is the best way to tweak your dog in every area. The results are fast and sure. This does not hurt the dog in any way and there are no long term effects other than your dog doing what you tell it to do on a dime 99% of the time. Every once in a great while, a refresher course may be needed in some areas.


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## jmoney (Jul 21, 2010)

I absolutely would not recommend you get an e-collar, unless you start some reading (lou castle's site) and stop with the dog parks. Getting one of these things, working a few days and then using it at a dog park is a bad idea. Start with the OB. take your time with it. Really master it. Then...still stay away from the freaking dog park.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

jmoney said:


> I absolutely would not recommend you get an e-collar, unless you start some reading (lou castle's site) and stop with the dog parks. Getting one of these things, working a few days and then using it at a dog park is a bad idea. Start with the OB. take your time with it. Really master it. Then...still stay away from the freaking dog park.


I love it when I hear people say to stay away from dog parks. I don't like the real dog parks where there rr a bunch of dogs crammed in and not too much space. 

But a park with off leash hours that's not necessarily a dog park, just has off leash dogs there, those should be avoided too?



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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

Sorry, completely unconvinced that e-collars are anything other than modernized medieval torture devices.

Even with my incompetent ham-fisted inconsistent dog 'training' I'm able to either get the dog to do what I intend or am wise enough not to put the dog in to a position where it is not going to do what I need.

Perhaps instead of tazing the dog we could avoid dog parks and taking the dog to other people's houses until we have bonded with and figured out our dog well enough to get what we're after.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

NTexFoster said:


> Sorry, completely unconvinced that e-collars are anything other than modernized medieval torture devices.
> 
> Even with my incompetent ham-fisted inconsistent dog 'training' I'm able to either get the dog to do what I intend or am wise enough not to put the dog in to a position where it is not going to do what I need.
> 
> Perhaps instead of tazing the dog we could avoid dog parks and taking the dog to other people's houses until we have bonded with and figured out our dog well enough to get what we're after.


I'm afraid of tools I'm not familiar with, too NTex. Get to know the tool, see it used the right way. It might not ultimately be a tool you need, but it is an option. Just like a prong collar, head collar, choke, or a smack. Are any of them anything less than a 'modernized torture device/practice'? Someone could easily argue that all are. But they're tools at a trainer's disposal, and all have effective and ineffective/inhumane methods.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

NTexFoster said:


> Sorry, completely unconvinced that e-collars are anything other than modernized medieval torture devices.


I suggest that you get yourself some education. Statements made without knowledge are apt to be ignored, as they should be. 



NTexFoster said:


> Even with my incompetent ham-fisted inconsistent dog 'training' I'm able to either get the dog to do what I intend or am wise enough not to put the dog in to a position where it is not going to do what I need.


That's great, but it has nothing to do with the OP's dog or this discussion. 



NTexFoster said:


> Perhaps instead of * tazing * the dog


A wonderful emotional ploy, but no basis in fact or reality.


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## skier16 (Feb 21, 2013)

my dog loves her ecollar. If I leave it on a low table she will grab it and come put it in my lap because she knows when its on she gets to work.

also from what ive read on here i regularly work with a higher stim setting then most when she is in drive (up to low 40's on dogtra out of 120), and has never responded negatively to it.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh my goodness....the amount of anthropomorphizing and emotional-fear-language on here is silly. It's a dog, not a person....OP I am glad you are researching so much, trying to learn the best methods, and are set on achieving great obedience and manners. My father used ecollars(among many other tools and methods) the whole time I was growing up, to teach family dogs and bird dogs obedience. They are great tools, with fast results, and sometimes with big, high drive dogs, those fast results are a must. Anyone can train their dog however they want. Positive only, ecollar, prong, praise, choke, etc....or, like most of us, a combination of all of the above lol. 

I will add myself to the list of people recommending Lou. His stuff works, many people on here have had great success with it with their dogs. I would also add my two cents on dog parks. I, like you, started out thinking my dog had to "socialize" in dog parks....this created a bit of fear in my pup, because big dogs kind of ran him over (I took him way too young...dumb, dumb). He is over it now, because I stopped the dog parks, stopped believing my dog had to "socialize" and focused on obedience, building a trusting bond with me, and taking the responsibility of protecting himself out of his hands. Sounds like your dog is kind of going to the opposite extreme....he's decided he needs to asert himself before the other dogs even get a chance....whether this is fear, dominance, or a combination of both....don't know...but it's not something you probably want to reinforce by placing him in situations where neither of you have control of any of the dogs or interactions.

Anyway, good luck! Sounds like you are trying your best to do the best. I'd just re-think dog parks lol. I moved from the midwest (no dog parks really) to the west coast, where dog parks are *everywhere*, and everyone thinks their dog needs to play, like a human child, at the park....lol. I was slowly taught how wrong that was, and how it was really dumb luck if your dog hadn't been attacked in one way or another.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

skier16 said:


> my dog loves her ecollar. If I leave it on a low table she will grab it and come put it in my lap because she knows when its on she gets to work.
> 
> also from what ive read on here i regularly work with a higher stim setting then most when she is in drive (up to low 40's on dogtra out of 120), and has never responded negatively to it.


Ammo is the same way with his. He knows that when its on that means he has more "freedom." He knows that with the collar on he can be outside without being tied to me and can run more. 

He is so funny when he's distracted by a cat or loss dog and I push the button to get his attention. He won't always turn and look at me, usually he will keep watching whatever it is that has his attention and very quickly back up to me and sit. 


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## Dbrooke407 (Apr 18, 2013)

Dog park: (you'll need somebody that understands the situation and is willing to help)
Have a friend meet you somewhere with their dog and yours. Somewhere there aren't other dogs to distract. Approach the other dog with your dog. Reward HEAVILY and IMMEDIATELY with extremely delicious treats when your dog is being polite and just playing. Immediately take away the other dog if your dog starts acting up. It won't be a quick fix, it'll take quite some time.


Small animals: It's all about distraction. Work on the "focus" or "watch me" command heavily for a couple of weeks. When the dog has it down to a T, introduce the small animal distractions. Tell your dog to focus or watch you. If she cant seem to focus on anything other than the small animals, take her favorite treat and hold it in front of her nose and then lure her face away from the distraction. 

Good luck and I commend you for not taking shock collars so lightly like most people do these days. 

Shock collars really can help with training, to be honest. But they can also create other problems for you to have to work on. 


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

my collar has a beep button, that makes the collar it's self beep, that's like the warning, and usually that enough, I mainly use mine when I have her off the leash that way incase she's not listening, or recalling, or if she takes off after something, I only shock and on a lower setting if I have no control over her drive that she's in. cureent I have a husky mix, and waiting on my GSD pup, but it works the same on all dogs, unless you just get a bone head of a dog, but they are very effective when used properly, although, she does no when she has it on and when she doesn't.. I messed up there, but for the most part she's pretty good.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I think that you're saying that you use the beep as a warning that if the dog does not comply with a command, that the stim is coming. (If that's wrong please let me know). I'm not a fan of doing this. If the training has been done properly, _ the command _ should be giving this _"warning."_ If the dog does not comply, after basic work with the Ecollar has been done, then I repeat the command and give a stim. Merely giving a warning does not contain much information, it's just a noise, and if the dog is distracted, it may not have heard the command in the first place. The noise, by itself, won't have much meaning to the dog. It may interrupt whatever behavior the dog is doing at the moment, but it won't have any information to him as to what you want him to do.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

TO the OP, you are not reinforcing the dog's refusal to follow a command by providing a shock, you are punishing the dog. Reinforcement increases the frequency of a behavior and punishment decreases the frequency of the behavior. Some might say the shock is negative reinforcement in that removal of the shock increases the behavior of compliance. But I would call it punishment because the disobedience comes first.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> I think that you're saying that you use the beep as a warning that if the dog does not comply with a command, that the stim is coming. (If that's wrong please let me know). I'm not a fan of doing this. If the training has been done properly, _the command _should be giving this _"warning."_ If the dog does not comply, after basic work with the Ecollar has been done, then I repeat the command and give a stim. Merely giving a warning does not contain much information, it's just a noise, and if the dog is distracted, it may not have heard the command in the first place. The noise, by itself, won't have much meaning to the dog. It may interrupt whatever behavior the dog is doing at the moment, but it won't have any information to him as to what you want him to do.


 
I understand what you are saying, how ever, the way i have her trained I don't feel that she should get stim because she to interested in something. To me, shocking because they dog didn't immediatly follow a command isn't right. I wouldn't immediatly spank my kid if they didn't learn to do what I said the first time I said it. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, and from what I've read above you seem to be the 'go-to' person on this subject. My use was a training collar to learn her limits on how far she can go and stuff, I don't use it when I teach simple commands such as sit. I only use if she's doing something to harm herself, or something identicle, or if she takes off after a cat or something other critter. She's listens for the most part.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I used to have a prey drive issue with my dog once my dog reached 1. Since we both love to hike off leash, an ecollar was the best option for us, amongst other reasons. I followed the training protocols outlined by Michael Ellis, similar to Lou but not exactly the same, and it worked beautifully. I can stop her from starting a chase under voice command and she now knows she can't chase so I don't have to remind her every time. She'll just look and go on her merry way. If she forgets, I can tell her to get on her merry way. At home in the yard, she chases wild life critters and I allow it. Just to say, the dog can distinguish the difference when taught properly of exactly what you want it to do and not become a basket case. If I want it to stop chasing critters at home, I can teach her, but I do want her to guard my yard from those critters. If learned properly, the dog shouldn't change the compliance to what was taught much, if at all, when off the ecollar. I now use the ecollar to proof other things, not the chase anymore, she's got that down cold. 

Hope you much success whichever route you take!


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

I agree, and like I said earlier, I wasn't trying to stir up anything, I just have a certain way of doing things with her. for my GSD pup I'm sure I will do it different then I have with the last one, but the GSD will be smart, and will want to please me. My current dog is just a dog... she's smart, but she still likes to do her own thing.. I think it's a size issue, ha... she's only 35 pounds or so... but like I said, I will prob follow a tutorial with the GSD givin I've no experience training one.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

countryboy73703 said:


> I understand what you are saying, how ever, the way i have her trained I don't feel that she should get stim because she to interested in something.


As you describe this situation she would not be _"get[ting] a stim because she [is too] interested in something."_ She's getting a stim because she did not obey a command. 



countryboy73703 said:


> To me, shocking because they dog didn't immediatly follow a command isn't right. I wouldn't immediatly spank my kid if they didn't learn to do what I said the first time I said it.


But this is not _"the first time [you] said it."_ You have (or you should have, at this point) trained the dog what the command means and she's demonstrated she understands it. To go to your example, you've trained your child that she should come to you when called. If she does not, punishment is appropriate. Just because she's _"interested in something"_ is not an excuse for not obeying. What you are doing amounts to "double commands" and most trainer and owners should be avoiding that. If you allow it to continue, in a short time your recall command will become the command PLUS the tone, not just the command. The dog will learn that your command means nothing without the tone. And if you don't stim after the tone, soon, the tone will be disregarded. This is the road to unreliability. 



countryboy73703 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, and from what I've read above you seem to be the 'go-to' person on this subject. My use was a training collar to learn her limits on how far she can go and stuff, I don't use it when I teach simple commands such as sit. I only use if she's doing something to harm herself, or something identicle, or if she takes off after a cat or something other critter. She's listens for the most part.


I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. But if you want reliable OB you'll stop doing this. If you want a life time of managing your dog's behavior, this is a good start down that road. As you tell us, _"She listens * for the most part." * _ _"For the most part"_ translates to, "when she feels like it." When she doesn’t, she'll blow you off. That being said, if you don't mind if it takes 2-3 commands for your dog to obey, that's fine with me. But realize that in an emergency, that delay could cost her life.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lol medievil torture device..Id rather take stim then a leash correction.. Ill bet money your inconsistently trained dogs dont provide you with consistent obedience off leash under distractions.


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## countryboy73703 (Sep 13, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> lol medievil torture device..Id rather take stim then a leash correction.. Ill bet money your inconsistently trained dogs dont provide you with consistent obedience off leash under distractions.


 Is this towards me or a general statement?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

countryboy73703 said:


> Is this towards me or a general statement?


Nope ntexfoster


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

NTexFoster said:


> Sorry, completely unconvinced that e-collars are anything other than modernized medieval torture devices.
> 
> Even with my incompetent ham-fisted inconsistent dog 'training' I'm able to either get the dog to do what I intend or am wise enough not to put the dog in to a position where it is not going to do what I need.
> 
> Perhaps instead of tazing the dog we could avoid dog parks and taking the dog to other people's houses until we have bonded with and figured out our dog well enough to get what we're after.


xxx


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## Nikkia (Jul 27, 2008)

I trained Nikkia to stop being a bully and strengthen her recall at the park with the E-Collar as well. 

I don't take her to those little chain linked dog parks, those have always spelled trouble and I swear I see a fight or severe bullying every time I walk by one in my area. There is an enclosed nature dog park about 4 miles from us which has a trail, creek, and water area for the dogs it is also about a 1/2 mile long that I walk her and Kavik to. The owners that take their dogs there are generally much more responsible and I'd say over 50% have an e-collar on their dogs if they know their dog is prone to bullying or not coming back. I also like to take her up the canyon off leash, and there is even one trail that goes up to a "lake" (More like a very large non mucky pond) dedicated for dogs to play in.

Nikkia used to be a terrible bully she'd chase dogs much bigger than herself or run after certain dogs barking and would play dominantly. It was also the only place I found where I couldn't get a reliable recall out of her. Lets just say I only took her once and I ended up being super embarrassed. I didn't want to have to go hiking without her though. I talked to my trainer and she taught me how to use the E-collar. I was reluctant at first as I was an E-collar hater. Lets just say it took 2 visits to the park using it and now she is a reformed girl. She plays nice, she doesn't steal toys (and if she does she drops them when told and comes back to me), on the rare occasion that there is a scuffle instead of running towards it she either comes to me or stays in the creek an plays near me (I don't even have to ask her to come back from those anymore she just knows they're trouble and chooses to stay out of them on her own now), she also comes back to me if she is being bullied instead of confronting it and if the dog follows I shoo it away. She isn't in any way afraid of the park or afraid of playing with the other dogs but she respects my commands and the way us humans believe park etiquette should be. I am also a E-collar convert now and believe that it is a very useful tool for the right cases with proper humane application under the supervision/advice of a trainer who understands E-collar work.

I worked with her over a year ago now and don't even need to use the collar anymore when we are there and can leave it off completely. I waited to stop until she had gone at least 4-6 mos of regular attendance on the trails and at the park without needing a correction though.

Good luck with your training!


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## Baddogkuzz (Mar 29, 2015)

LouCastle said:


> I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. But if you want reliable OB you'll stop doing this. If you want a life time of managing your dog's behavior, this is a good start down that road. As you tell us, _"She listens * for the most part." * _ _"For the most part"_ translates to, "when she feels like it." When she doesn’t, she'll blow you off. That being said, if you don't mind if it takes 2-3 commands for your dog to obey, that's fine with me. But realize that in an emergency, that delay could cost her life.


 Lou first of all I am very impressed with your website and your skills. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Secondly I am doing my research on the subject of E collars since my Max doesn't listen or follow commands 100% of the time and actually it is closer to 80% of the time. Which isn't good enough for me. If Maximus is a leash or within arms length he follow commands 95% of the time. Mind you Max is 8 mths old and I personally think I should have him listening at least 98% of the time. So I have just ordered a E collar and plan to follow your guild lines to the letter. This is my first GSD and I am trying my best to train him well. I have been using the new school positive training and don't want to have to go all old school on this dog. Before this puppy and before I started a family I raised junk yard dogs big nasty Rot./ St. Bernard mixes and they weren't all that smart but they were alot easier to train then this GSD. Mind you I trained them old school the way my father trained a dog. So I am looking forward to using the E collar to get the results I am looking for.

I have never been a fan of dog parks and I have never owned a dog up until now that I would take to a dog park. But I had people here on this forum tell me that I need to socialize him and that a dog park would be good for him. well "They were WRONG" I will never take my Max to a dog park again. He had a bad experience his first and only time when some other smaller dog bite him. That and if I hadn't had my little girl 7 yrs old there who was crying over everything that had happened. I would have beaten the owner and his dog with my bear hands.
I will never go back !!!!!


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