# How many pups do breeders take back?



## maggs30

Do breeders often take back pups or it is a rare occurrence? I am thinking about going into breeding in the next 2 years. Not for Shepherds but for Dogue De Bordeaux or French Mastiffs. I am just starting to research the breed intensely and have a breeder/shower friend that I will probably acquire a pup from in June, and learn all I can from. The stud of his kennel has a .39 Penn Hip Score. The bitch has a Penn hip score in the 80th percentile. 

Anyways back to the original question...how many have you taken back? Have you ever had a hard time placing pups? 
There is a true need in the US for a good breeder of Bordeaux as the breeders I have seen hardly ever do Penn Hip or OFA testing, which is just horrible. I truly believe that I can help improve the quality of the breed if I do decide to take the plunge. Of course all Penn/OFA testing as well as many other tests would be run on my Dogues. Right now the things that worry me are not having the room if I end up taking back numerous pups for one reason or another, and the economy making the purchase of even stellar quality Dogues none existent. Thoughts and critiques? 

The down side is that I would no longer foster due to health concerns for the Dogues.


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## sgtmom52

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdDo breeders often take back pups or it is a rare occurrence? I am thinking about going into breeding in the next 2 years.


My sister shows Gordon Setters and has raised 3 or 4 litters from her show dogs. She has not had the need to take back any puppies however she has taken back several adult dogs from people who no longer wanted them for various reasons. She has it in her contract that she will take the dogs back at any time. She took one back that the owner when against the contract and took him to a shelter when he was moving ~ the shelter fortunately asked for the breeder's name ~ then called Gordon Setter Rescue who then called her.

She easily re-homed all but 1 which she kept. The one she kept was about 2 years old when she took her back. The people no longer wanted her because "she growled at someone who walked past her crate while she was chewing on a rawhide". Dazzle (old owners named her) is the sweetest dog and is doing well in agility & obedience training.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This thread doesn't answer your question directly, but had some interesting thoughts:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...&gonew=1#UNREAD

What is this breed bred for? What kind of breed tests do they do to check temperament? 

I always wonder that for some of the small breeds too...

Wow, just read the description of the breed a bit. I would think as a breeder (or rescue) the match making of owner to dog would be A. of paramount importance and B. you would have to screen through a ton of people looking for ego enhancers/macho/macha issues to find homes that were right for the dogs

I have wondered about that too, if as breeders you would be looking at adult returns, after mistakes had been made even more than puppy returns.


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## dd

I agree that a good breeder will take back dogs at any time in the dog's life. I have met a breeder (of dobies) who was flying an 8 year old dog back from across the country to spend his senior years with her since his family's situation had changed.

So it's not just a puppy thing.


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## angelaw

The oldest I've had come back was a 2 yr old male, couple was in seminary, had to move in with parents who had hybrids and didn't get along with strange dogs. He's now with a sch. judge who hopes to get his sch1 done shortly and qualify for nationals with him.


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## Chris Wild

We've never had cause to take back a dog we bred while still a pup, but have taken back 3 older ones. One at 12 months who turned out to be too much dog for the family, one at 16 months who we were co-owning with a friend but his situation changed and he could no longer keep her, and one at 2 years whose owner turned out to be a scumbag who abused and neglected the dog.


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## maggs30

The Dogue De Bordeaux is a Molosser that was originally breed as a Guard dog. They are breed for their courage, loyalty, and their strong sense of territory. They should be powerful and athletic. They should never shows signs of nervousness or aggressiveness. They need to have a strong solid temperament making them have the ability to guard without aggression unless it is absolutely necessary. Their overall nature is that of a gentle giant. 

Basically they are breed for a strong solid intimidating athletic body with a solid unwavering temperament. Loyal and protect yet gentle. 

Don't know if that made sense. They are the Turner and Hooch dogues. They are giant lovable dogues that are meant to be imposing and not vicious. 
I don't know that any formal checks are done to check for their temperament in the US. They are meant to only be breed by a breeder that socializes them at a very early age and raises them indoors interacting with people for the first 8 weeks. They should be calm, gentle, and patient.


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## ahlamarana

I hope this isn't a hijack, or if this question is too personal, just ignore







. When you (breeders in general, not singling anyone out) say "take back" a dog, are you refunding the original purchase price or is the owner just turning the dog over to you?


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## angelaw

depends on the situation, but most times its turning the dog over.


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## maggs30

I don't so much worry about placing them to the right family, because being in rescue I have learned how hard to question in what areas. A Dogue would not be happy in a single household with no other companions or one that is not experienced with strong owners used to handling slightly stubborn strong willed Dogues. The owners that mention anything about wanting a "guard dogue" even if that is what they are breed for would not get a pup from me. 

Was it easy for everyone to place the older dogs after they were returned? I have absolutely no problem taking them back except for the limit of room that I have. I would expect them to be brought back if there were ever any problems. 
All the pups will be microchipped before they ever leave my property. 
I would be highly PO'd if one of mine ever ended up in a shelter. 
I can tell you the guy I am looking at being my mentor has four and when I went to spend time with him and the Dogues they are very intimidating, the ground will literally shake when they bark....and then you are drooled on as soon has he grants you access to his yard....and I mean a lot of drool! Their temperament is solid and desired...except his were not raised with cats and when he tried to bring one in they did chase it to the ends of the earth. They never once hurt it, but did not want it in their territory. On the flip side there are plenty that live with tiny kittens.


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## Chris Wild

Depends on the situation and why the dog is coming back in the first place.


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## maggs30

> Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaI hope this isn't a hijack, or if this question is too personal, just ignore
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> . When you (breeders in general, not singling anyone out) say "take back" a dog, are you refunding the original purchase price or is the owner just turning the dog over to you?


Yeah it would depend on the situation. If there is a defect in the dogs health or temperament, depending on contract, you would refund all or some of the purchase price. If they are wanting it rehomed due to their personal circumstances that is no fault of the breeder, they sign over rights. Also stated on a "good" contract.


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## maggs30

If anyone is more interested look at the difference in the Dogues that are breed in France, Czech and Germany compared to the breeders you see in the US. I know there are bad ones everywhere, but it just seems to me that the better breeders that take the time to breed a good Dogue mostly seem to be overseas...which would make sense since it is not an American breed. The span in difference is just amazing to me though.


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## ahlamarana

Makes sense, thanks!


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## Betty

I have right of first refusal in my contract which means that hopefully the owner and I can agree to terms. At bare minimum it should mean that I'm informed and can involved in the process of finding a new home.

My oldest litter is only a year old so it's not something I have had to deal with yet but I would work with the family and try and do anything possible to get the dog back here where I could rehome him or her. I think breeders are a little better set up to vet prospective owners then the normal family.


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## maggs30

> Originally Posted By: Betty101I have right of first refusal in my contract which means that hopefully the owner and I can agree to terms. At bare minimum it should mean that I'm informed and can involved in the process of finding a new home.
> 
> My oldest litter is only a year old so it's not something I have had to deal with yet but I would work with the family and try and do anything possible to get the dog back here where I could rehome him or her. I think breeders are a little better set up to vet prospective owners then the normal family.


I totally agree with that. Not that if I found a great home and their situation drastically change I wouldn't trust them, but breeders just have more exposure and better connections to screen and find the better home than just rehoming it to one of the neighbors.


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## lhczth

If you are worried about not having the room or time to keep and/or take back an entire litter then don't breed. If you have the room to deal with some at any time during their lives then just limit how much you breed. Also, if you can't afford to do any of the above, don't breed. You never know when you might have to buy back one of your dogs just to get them out of a bad situation. 

I have had to take back one young dog.


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## maggs30

> Originally Posted By: lhczthIf you are worried about not having the room or time to keep and/or take back an entire litter then don't breed. If you have the room to deal with some at any time during their lives then just limit how much you breed. Also, if you can't afford to do any of the above, don't breed. You never know when you might have to buy back one of your dogs just to get them out of a bad situation.
> 
> I have had to take back one young dog.


Agreed. The money is not a problem, nor is the time involved. I would have room to take back one or two at any given time but of course everyone here knows there are so many variables in breeding that it is something that must be thought out at all angles before it is undertaken. That is my goal over the next 18-24 months is to study the breed very in depth and look at it from all possible angles. 

Do must breeders here breed every 2nd or 3rd cycle? I was thinking every 2 or 3 cycles would be the ideal, but of course there are a lot of opinions on this. Also with Bordeaux's they have a life span of only 6-8 years with an age of 10 yrs being ancient. So looking it from that perspective any female I had would only be breed a maximum of 4 times since she would not be breed until almost 2 or over. They also sometimes have C-sections needed due to the large heads. 

It is something I have wanted to do since I was 8 years old and my sisters friends mother breed Collies. I don't have the fondness for Collies that I do for Bordeaux's and Shepherds. But I did learn a lot from watching her over the years. I would never take on breeding Shepherd with all the different lines and different standards. I would be lost on where to start to better the breed so more power to the Shepherd breeders here. There is so much involved with all the lines. Kind of makes my head spin! LOL!


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## lhczth

I actually breed when I want another dog to work. Nike had two litters. One in 2003 and one in 2004. I got what I wanted out of her second litter. Then I bred her daughter, Vala, in 2008 and she will have another litter in about 2 weeks. IF I breed Vala again it probably won't be until 2011. I don't look at the cycles so much as the age of the bitch and what I want out of the litter.


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## BlackGSD

Talking about space, if you don't have the space for say 4 or more extra large dogs, I wouldn't breed either. I wouldn't imagine there is an overwelming number of qualified people that want a Douge. What happens if you have a litter of say 8 but can only find homes for 3 and end up having to keep the rest for several months or a year before you can find homes for them?


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote: but have taken back 3 older ones. One at 12 months who turned out to be too much dog for the family, one at 16 months who we were co-owning with a friend but his situation changed and he could no longer keep her, and one at 2 years whose owner turned out to be a scumbag who abused and neglected the dog.


Think that's the reality that responsible breeders keep in mind each and every time they breed. And know that why they do the best to find the BEST owners in the best situations. Even knowing that by doing their best, situations change that may mean they may get some dogs back in the future.

And if you aren't in a situation to deal with the reality of that, you probably shouldn't breed without keeping that in mind.


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## rokanhaus

I have taken a few dogs back, usually due to divorce or the pup ending up being not enough dog or too much dog. I never have a problem finding them a more suitable , "meant to be" type of home. Sometimes seems like fate is playing a huge hidden role.

I have a "parents getting divorced now" back.

Also just got a 4 yr old..I feel bad for her...the non profit farm she belonged too loved her to death, but business is booming, which meant city folks wandered onto the property unnannounced, usually tagging along a little foo foo dog, and they were just getting really afraid visitors being greeted by a black barking GSD was becoming an increased liability. 

As a breeder, you do always have to have time and space available.

With my kennels currently snowed in, it is quite a juggle right now!!


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## maggs30

Most of the Dogue breeders have a waiting list for pups. There are actually not that many in the US. So a want for the breed is not a problem in the right economy. They have liters of 3 to 12 with 6 being the normal size. To say that anyone that doesn't have room to keep 3-4 Dogues shouldn't breed or that if you can't take back an entire litter don't breed. If you breed right and screen right you shouldn't be taking back very many at all. As many breeders have chimed in and none have had to take back an entire litter.


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## Daisy1986

Or you could start a Bordeaux Rescue for the BYB out there who are currently doing it wrong. 


http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8788152

Good job,







for thinking this out and asking questions.


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## BlackGSD

I never said anything about taking back an entire litter. As a matter of fact I never said anything about taking back ANY.
And if there is that much of a demand and breeders are overrun with QUALIFIED homes, then you shouldn't have to worry about not being able to place the pups either. 

I do believe there are breeders on the board that have had to keep puppies longer than 8 weeks for various reasons though. Wether the reason is having a buyer back out at the last minute or needing to wait a few weeks after 8 weeks to take posession of the pup, they can't fly the pup to it's new home due to the weather, or any other reason.


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## Smithie86

This might come up more in the future with re-homing due to the economy But, the more you talk to people and really ask questions and really listen to what people say and do not say. That helps in hopefully eliminating some of those situations, from too busy schedules, too 

I have learned who is serious and who is not; just info gathering/window shopping. I like when people are upfront and straight – it is amazing how many vague emails you get, either from fake emails or others. 

I have learned to ask more specific questions than what is usually asked and what is on interview type questions. I ask to speak to the training director to ensure that they are OK with the person getting a puppy from someone else. Some are not OK with that and are not happy. Some training directors are great and will pick up the phone and work with you. Those are the ones that are in it for the right reasons. Even of the person does not buy a puppy from you.

1st right of refusal in contract. 

Also, with a titled adult we sold, the owner became sick (and dog was 7) and we helped him find an awesome home. He was one of those dogs that wanted to be an only dog.

It also depends as to what truly can happen. Some breeders might be restricted by codes/homeowner situations and can only have “x” number of dogs legally on their property. What happens in that situation? How can state that they pull back a dog unless they are really under the limit? We ensure that we have room.

This is an issue that a friend of mine runs into in CA, but I know of other breeders that have similar restrictions. How do other breeders handle that?


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## maggs30

http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.c...view=&zip=75056

I have looked at rescue Dogues. There are usually anywhere from 50-75 listed in the whole US. The National Dogue De Bordeaux Rescue places 95% of them. 

It was stated in this thread that if you can't take back an entire litter don't breed. There is a huge difference in taking back 6 175 pound Dogues and holding a few pups over for a couple weeks, or taking back one or two adults over time. I can see no circumstance were it would be required of any breeder to take back an entire litter of adult dogs.


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## lhczth

No, it probably doesn't happen, but it is something you should think about. There is also the chance you could get back an older dog due to who knows what reason. Look at how hard it can be to place old dogs. You could end up having a few live out their remaining years with you. What about your retired females? Do you place them or keep them. This can add to your doggie population. My females live out their lives here so I have to take that in to consideration when I breed. I could never place them. They are part of my life. 

Not saying that you shouldn't breed. These are just thing that we all have to consider.


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## maggs30

I have never rehomed a pet to this day and I don't plan on starting with a retired female. We do plan on moving further out onto more land in a few years...probably 5-7 years. One or two for long term or living out their lives I would have room for. I plan on starting with one female, then after a year or two going to two females. That plan could change if I have some come back that still need placed. I do not plan on keeping males on the premise for at least 5 years though. I do not think I would ever do more than 3 females breeding or retired at any given time. I think that too many would cause some things to get overlooked that are important. I would not want to try to do too much at once and hurt the breed instead of help it.


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## lhczth

I also keep myself down in numbers so as not to overwhelm myself and so I can give ample attention and time to everyone. I don't keep males. Saves on a lot of worries.


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## maggs30

> Originally Posted By: lhczthI also keep myself down in numbers so as not to overwhelm myself and so I can give ample attention and time to everyone. I don't keep males. Saves on a lot of worries.


I think if I had a ton of room I would consider keeping a male on premise, but the extra steps of catching the sometimes not on schedule heat could be a problem! LOL! My poor breeder friend has two males and two females. Sometimes the heat cycles are 4 months apart and sometimes 6 months apart...umm no thanks! LOL!


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## Lauri & The Gang

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a breed that can be affected by breed bans.

If the city/tow where the owner lives suddenly enforces a breed ban will the owners move or will they end up having to send the dog back to you?

Just something to keep in mind.

The lady that got me started in Shepherds takes back maybe a couple dogs a year. She even takes in dogs that aren't out of her breeding.


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