# Would you use this breeder?



## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I want to describe a situation, without giving specific names and see if you would go with this person. 
Sire is absolutely gorgeous. Fabulous movement, amazing German pedigree SchH3 throughout and Seiger. Was rated VP-3. Does not yet have his SchH1, but has strong full bite and may get it this year. 
Dam is also nice german type. Has BH. May get SchH1 this year. 
Both have been OFA'd. Both have wonderful temperaments and great drive. 
Prices for this litter will probably start at $1500, though it may be $2000 and go up.
This would be for someone interested in a SchH prospect.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

neither parent titled, ofa's at least are done, but wanting to do schutzhund? Sorry, I'd look at working lines versus showlines. If they just want to dabble in schutzhund, then maybe the showlines. 

Don't anyone yell at me. It's a fact in my area that alot of the showlines are more watered down. Heck I know one guy that had showlines whose converted to ddr and working lines for schutzhund. 

So for 1500 or up for untitled showlines? sorry you can find titled for 2000 and up. Now if I knew the breeder and knew that they followed thru on titling, etc maybe, but I'd look at them for showing not for serious schutzhund


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

It is *technically* a german show line male and female but their drive is off the wall for show lines and his pedigree in particular has SchH3 through like I said and he does very well in SchH training.

Also, this breeder has dogs that she has bred doing SAR, police work, etc...


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

I looked for six months and was advised to go back at least four generations on both parents which I did.

You might get a great dog, but in my research that is high for untitled parents.

Good luck.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I have a 5 generation pedigree for both parents. The male goes back to Seigers and SchHs all the way back.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

My thoughts are along the lines of Angela's.



> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberIt is *technically* a german show line male and female but their drive is off the wall for show lines and his pedigree in particular has SchH3 through like I said and he does very well in SchH training.


MOST German show lines have pedigree's packed with SchH3s. It's pretty obvious looking at the general show line population that doesn't equate to a high percentage of dogs with exceptional working ability.

As far as "off the wall drive". While most show lines are lower drive than most working lines, typically when I see show lines fail to be able to work well it's not a drive problem. Many of them have very nice drive. It's a lack of courage, character, hardness, ability to cope with stress, stick-to-it-tiveness, soundly based aggression (active, not just reactive/defense). 

Drive alone doesn't make a dog for SchH. If it did, there'd be SchH titled Labradors all over the place.

I also think those prices are rather high for untitled parents.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberI have a 5 generation pedigree for both parents. The male goes back to Seigers and SchHs all the way back.


That doesn't mean anything. As I already said, ALL German show lines "go back to Seigers and SchHs". That doesn't mean they can work well. Just go to Youtube and look up some bitework tests from the Seiger shows (where the "best of the best" show lines hang out) and compare to bitework from the BSP or USA Nationals (where the "best of the best" working lines hang out). Difference is night and day.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What are your intentions for the dog? If it's for SchH I would ask someone who is knowledgable in the sport (not just the protection tests done at Sieger shows) to evaluate the dog and give you an objective assessment of the dog's drive and potential. Like Chris said, words like "hard", "drive", "full bite", "lets out", etc have different meanings for SchH vs. show. Like Angela says, "watered down" is a good way of putting it! (and I say this as someone who has a show line and is dabbling in SchH)

I'm confused about the sire. VP ratings are given until the dog is one year. So either the dog is less than a year old or hasn't been shown recently (not that the latter is a deal-breaker, but the former would be!!).


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

CustomKimber this is not an insult, but your posts about dogs are all over the place, American Lines, German Showlines. What are your goals, what do you want to do? 

As far as this breeder goes. It depends greatly. First I like my Red and Black GSD's (aka German Showlines). But would I take a chance on this breeding that I would have a solid SchH dog at the price listed NOPE. If I am going to gamble then I want my potential loss to be as low as I can get it. There might be exceptions for me, if it was a Pedigree combination that I felt really good about, if I could have someone who is really experienced in SchH watch the dam and sire work. What some person sees as over the top drives maybe lack of nerve making the dog hectic.

Val


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

On my phone so brief answers. Sire will be. 3 this year. 
I personally know this breeder. I have had the same questions you guys are asking me for about 6 months but I am trying to learn from her as far as breeding and schH goes. But betty is about the same distance from me as this breeder so perhaps my time would be better spent learning from her. My intersts and abilities have been limited by what this breeder will allow me to do essentially. Thus the varying questions looking at german and American lines. What do I want? I want strong german working lines. I want schH. I want a male like ace of Nike and those in his kennel. The problem is that where I am located is isolated from good breeders and clubs from which I can learn.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberWhat do I want? I want strong german working lines. I want schH.


Then you don't need american lines or showlines. there are clubs all over florida unless you're in the panhandle, then I feel for ya!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerWhat some person sees as over the top drives maybe lack of nerve making the dog hectic.


This is a very good point. Quite often dogs are viewed as "high drive" when in reality they're hyperactive due to nerve weakness.

I think it also important that when someone says a dog is "high drive" or "over the top in drive" to know what basis of experience and standard of comparison the person is basing that opinion on. Without knowing where they're coming from it's hard to know what such subjective statements really translate to in terms of the dog's personality.

I've known many people from pet/show backgrounds who say their dogs are super high drive... then when I see the dogs I discover that their idea of "high drive" is my idea of "moderate drive" because we're coming from two completely different perspectives when it comes to judging drive levels.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

That's the problem. I am in Tallahassee.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Betty's about 1 1/2 hrs from you and she does train on weekends


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I will admit that I am jaded in my view of her dogs by her opinion of them.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Go with Betty


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I thought you were looking for an American showline bitch pup to show in AKC style conformation? Now this one about German Show lines which will generally NOT do as well in the AKC ring.

As has been mentioned by nearly every reply in this thread ALL German Show lines will have SCH titles if they are following the SV because they HAVE to have a SCH title AND a show rating to register the offspring. Perhaps this person isn't following the SV guidelines because the litter you described could not be registered with the SV unless both parents had a SCH 1 (minimum) and a show rating. It is possible that they are just taking shortcuts to save money or it is possible they just have not been able to title their dogs yet. The latter could be for MANY reasons: the dogs have training issues, or character issues that they have not yet been trained well enough to get through a trial, owners life may have been hectic away from dogs, or simply lack of trials. The TRUE answer would help but a lot of people are really good at telling prospective buyers what they want to hear which may or may not be the actual truth. 

It would help if we knew exactly what you were looking for in a dog. But in this particular instance it is a "good price" for a show line dog but without the titles I would pass.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Ruq thank you for your reply. Please see my previous reply as to what I want vs what I feel pressure toward what "I am allowed to do. "


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

OK so I took too long to reply. 


If you want strong working lines I too would go with Betty. But I am still uncertain about the Am show line you were posting about I think it was last night?


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes I was posting about that. You are correct. But I am not going to stifle what I want to go after otherwise I will never get there, even if it means breaking off a relationship. 
The mother can't be sv as she is part American show


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I train mostly with German Working Lines. You are more then welcome to come out and watch the different dogs and get a little more feel for them.

We have a small group here but it it growing. We had a lady come out yesterday with her personal therapy dog that is looking to learn how to do tracking and schutzhund ob with her dog. 

Be warned though. I will not try and sell you a dog but if you come out we have a tendecy to put you to work with one of the young dogs or the pups! And we insist that you help socialize any puppies that are present!

Tally is about a 90 minute drive from my house. If you interested in coming out pm me and I will give you directions. 

Price of admission is to tell me how cool my dogs are........LOL And to act interested if you have a simple question and get the long version of an answer................<Goes to prove that nothing in life is free>


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimber The problem is that where I am located is isolated from good breeders and clubs from which I can learn.


I think clubs is a bigger problem than breeders. Many breeders will ship, and if it's really what you want, do a weekend road trip to pick up the pup. I think there are a few members here who recently got their first SchH dogs and are driving 2, 3 hours for training. I used to complain about 1.75 hrs each way but not anymore!

I'm having a similar problem with clubs, like I said my current club is 1.75 hrs which is not such a long drive but when you combine that with Michigan winter, often I just can't go, period. The club could be 10 minutes away and the drive is too dangerous. But, we are probably moving this summer so I'm already looking for clubs in these possible areas and contacting them about openings.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberRuq thank you for your reply. Please see my previous reply as to what I want vs what I feel pressure toward what "I am allowed to do. "


Since you are a "proud single mom to 2 skin kids" according to your sig, you are obviously an ADULT and can do WHAT EVER *YOU* WANT! If someone else doesn't like it TOO BAD. If you change YOUR wants to match someone elses, you WILL BE SORRY in the long run.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I agree with Tracy. You need to determine what YOU want vs what others are trying to get you to get.

What Betty and Charlie (Nike) have are vastly different from the other lines you are talking about.

And if the show sire is 3, they did not even put him back in the 12-18 to get a SG. Where are they training in SCH? Ask for examples of the dogs they talk about. You will see a lot of people claiming expertise on the various avenues (k9, agility, SAR, assistance); but when pressed to give specifics......


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thank you everyone for all of your advice. It really is very helpful and I really do appreciate it. And I am going to go after what I want.
Betty, I'm sure I'll be hitting you up. 
I know that Betty's lines and the ones of Nike are vastly different and what they entail and require. 
I don't want to give specifics about the breeder, but they do go to SchH club and as far as knowledge about dogs, german shepherds, training, etc... is very knowledgeable.
But obviously, everyone can still have their shortcomings.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Not quite sure why you seem focused on Nike as there are many excellent working lines of similar, and different, pedigree. As far as Nike goes, you might want to PM board member NicholeW for some info specific to him.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh I'm not specifically focused on him. I have just seen him in action and liked what I saw. But no, I'm not set on him


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I have seen Nike in training (Gabor coached Charlie a few years ago and had caught the dog numerous times) and in action at the various WUSVs and the videos that someone posted on the PDB of the puppies a few weeks back. Looked nice.

I think Nicole has a puppy from a littermate and Zidane; doe she have one from Nike?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

If you're interested in showing AND working there are some German showlines out there that CAN work just as well as the working lines. I'm a working line fan through and through but I thought I'd put that out there.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Lol Diana I know you like those working lines


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