# Help for YOU in Choosing the RIGHT PUPPY, try this adaptation of Volhard's Puppy Test



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

*Help for YOU in Choosing the RIGHT PUPPY, try this adaptation of Volhard's Puppy Test* 
​So many people are unhappy, getting the wrong "sort of attitude" puppy. There is a 7 week test that can be done, my little new Bitch for Breeding passed 3-3-3 score... Look, while not completely foolproof, this may be a HUGE asset for you in getting the RIGHT PUPPY for your purposes. It could save months of grief and heartache.... 

The Trainer that did this, is pretty well respected. My female scored middle of the road 3's, might be a bit athletic, biggest of the litter, will take some extra training and exercise.. *Look, with a little study you might be able to assess some of this with a version of the test on your own.. First response to each test is IT....*

*Volhard’s Puppy Aptitude Testing, or PAT is here edited, taken from a link to their website, thought it might be an asset to some of you, as I agree with the results on my new puppy... It is more than just "Puppy Love" ... I have taken Pick of the litter of two bloodlines I like, to start breeding. Having the right temperment for a larger sized Working Dog is important...*


*CHOOSING THE RIGHT PUPPY FOR THE RIGHT HOME!*​

Getting a dog or puppy on impulse is rarely a good idea. Remember that dogs, like cars, were designed for a particular function. 

When the various breeds were originally developed, there was a greater emphasis on the ability to do a job, such as herding, guarding, hunting, drafting, etc., than appearance. If a particular breed interests you, find out first what the dog was bred to do. There are so many different breeds to choose from and if there is a secret to getting that “perfect puppy”, it lies in doing your homework. 

DECIDING WHAT KIND OF DOG TO GET

The well-trained dog begins with some idea of what role the dog is expected to play in your life and then selecting a dog that is suitable for the job. Following are some of the reasons for selecting a dog:

• Companionship;
• Playmate for the kids;
• Protection;
• A special activity, such as hunting, herding, breeding, showing in conformation, or competing in performance events;
• Status symbol (not wise); or
• A combination of the above.

Some dogs are able to fill all of these expectations, while others have more limited talents. 

WHAT IS PUPPY TESTING?

Some of the tests we use were developed as long ago as the l930’s for dogs bred to become Guide Dogs. Then in the 1950’s, studies on puppies were done to determine how quickly they learned. These studies were actually done to identify children’s learning stages. 

*Top Dog Tips: The ideal age to test the puppy is at 49 days of age when the puppy is neurologically complete and it has the brain of an adult dog. With each passing day after the 49th day the responses will be tainted by prior learning.*

Later on in the early 60’s more tests were developed to determine if pups could be tested for dominance and submission. These tests determined that it was indeed possible to predict future behavioral traits of adult dogs by testing puppies at 49 days of age. Testing before or after that age, effected the accuracy of the test, depending on the time before or after the 49th day. 

We took these tests, added some of our own, and put together what is now known as the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test, or PAT. PAT uses a scoring system from 1-6 and consists of ten tests. The tests are done consecutively and in the order listed. Each test is scored separately, and interpreted on its own merits. The scores are not averaged, and there are no winners or losers. The entire purpose is to select the right puppy for the right home. 

*The tests are as follows:* 

1. Social Attraction - degree of social attraction to people, confidence or dependence. 
2. Following - willingness to follow a person. 
3. Restraint - degree of dominant or submissive tendency, and ease of handling in difficult situations.
4. Social Dominance - degree of acceptance of social dominance by a person. 
5. Elevation - degree of accepting dominance while in a position of no control, such as at the veterinarian or groomer. 
6. Retrieving - degree of willingness to do something for you. Together with Social Attraction and Following a key indicator for ease or difficulty in training.
7. Touch Sensitivity - degree of sensitivity to touch and a key indicator to the type of training equipment required.
8. Sound Sensitivity - degree of sensitivity to sound, such as loud noises or thunderstorms. 
9. Sight Sensitivity - degree of response to a moving object, such as chasing bicycles, children or squirrels.
10. Stability - degree of startle response to a strange object. 

During the testing make a note of the heart rate of the pup, which is an indication of how it deals with stress, as well as its energy level. Puppies come with high, medium or low energy levels. You have to decide for yourself, which suits your life style. Dogs with high energy levels need a great deal of exercise, and will get into mischief if this energy is not channeled into the right direction.

Finally, look at the overall structure of the puppy. You see what you get at 49 days age. If the pup has strong and straight front and back legs, with all four feet pointing in the same direction, it will grow up that way, provided you give it the proper diet and environment in which to grow. If you notice something out of the ordinary at this age, it will stay with puppy for the rest of its life. He will not grow out of it.

** Post edited down to the 1000 word limit by ADMIN**


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

per German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner



> 13. Due to the size of the forum all posts should be less than 1,000 words. If you feel the information warrants exceeding the 1,000 word limit you need to get approval from one of the Administrators before posting. Should a post far exceed this limit please just provide a link on the board to a private web page where the article can be found.


This post above is over at 2,913 words, better to just post links and small amounts of what may be in them.

This is going to get edited/deleted by one of the moderators with power in this topic (not me ).


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

No worries, Thank You Moderators, Understand....:hug: *Owners: Search it on the Internet, and it comes with descriptions of the tests, how to do it, and how to score each reaction...*

Now, GSD Owners to be, DO YOUR HOMEWORK... I have had this PAT Puppy Aptitude Test done on my pup coming AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT... Get the right puppy, not hyperactive or too aggressive unless that is what you want... Look, this test is really not totally conclusive. I would give it a 70% accuracy rating. I have spent time with my Pup on visits, and my Breeder is taking another little female for her Breeding Program, hers got a 2's and 3' score on the critical three areas, mine was 3-3-3...

*Now if you repeated the test (simple, does not take much time) on your choice pup, and got a similar score another day, you could say it would be maybe 80% accurate on how your pup was predispositioned. That does not mean you could not train it out or in away from the genetic predispostion, but it will mean a lot of potential extra work and time... *

For instance, you would not want a hyperactive or aggressive dog for your family, and conversly you would not want a laid back, indifferent, independent or lazy dog for a Personal Protection Dog or a Watchdog, it would mean too much training or not at all and failing the PPD testing later on... Or getting a puppy that was too hyperactive (some call it drive) or was too aggressive to be around a family or children and friends... This Forum is full of people appealing for help, potentially having the wrong sort of dog for their needs.. Don't leave it to chance, honestly I think this testing improves your odds... Search it to their Website, learn how to do the test yourself, and put it into practice..

I hope this is a help for you future GSD Owners, don't make the mistake, this is one of the only or best ways of determining genetic response and compatibility for your needs... Maybe 70% accurate on the first go... Even 60% is better than "Awww look at the cute one" guesstimation...

*Look, who am I to give such advice?* Only 10 years with 4 GSD's? What do I know? Well, not a brag, but I am over the normal intelligence, way over the normal success rating, extrememely well off successful with Staff and Time, and cope with horses, travel, 50 Employees, and so on. I am probably more than just an opinion from the average bear OK? I have the time and money to appraise things, do all the R&D for my very successful Company, and this is not a brag, I am just qualifying myself to tell you... I would take this test seriously, it beats the pants off a pick on looks and the luck of the day... *The test at least gives you a better than 50-50 chance or luck of the draw, probably done twice will give you the 80% of giving a correct assessment of the aptititude and attitude of the pup... *

Kind regards, lone Ranger in Oz, doing "Dances with Wolves" with 4 GSDs:wub: and horses out on the "Last Frontier"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well.... a lot of folks do NOT follow the Volhard one time test but rely on day to day observations by a good breeder. Mine kept a chart of things they were doing and observations on each puppy. And boy, did she do a LOT! 

Me-25 years, working with GSDs and on #6, 2 of them nationally certified cadaver dogs and a 3rd who would have become a certified air scent dog but was diagnosed with severe HD at a young age and retired on the spot (she did, however, find a drowning victim before her retirement-that was a few years back before everyone was doing national certs) My biggest wreck of them all was the one *I* picked out using Volhard. Breeder selection works better for me. FWIW, he did just fine on the umbrella test and all that nonsense....but had nerves of butter. 

One thing as well, few breeders are going to hand you a litter of puppies and let you take them out of their sight to "test" them all in some strange place and that is what the test really calls for.

There is another test for working puppies called P.A.W.S that may give additional insight.
http://www.searchdogsne.org/reference/The%20PAWS%20Evaluation.pdf

Sure, all of these tests give some insight but one puppy one day is not nearly as good as detailed observation over time by a breeder who knows what the heck to look for. JMO.

One thing I really don't see in these tests is a subjective test of real engagement. Eye contact. There is a connection there and you know when it is there if you can see it. Maybe someone else can make better sense of what I am saying. But I have seen puppies avoid my gaze, others look right through me, and others gaze back and connect. I have had more than a few tell me that is a good sign to look for.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Well.... a lot of folks do NOT follow the Volhard one time test but rely on day to day observations by a good breeder. Mine kept a chart of things they were doing and observations on each puppy. And boy, did she do a LOT!
> 
> Sure, all of these tests give some insight but one puppy one day is not nearly as good as detailed observation over time by a breeder who knows what the heck to look for. JMO.
> .


Look, I basically agree, but it is hard to find that dedicated of Breeder, maybe as hard as choosing the right puppy... :wild: *It is hard enough to find the Genotype and Phenotype of the dog you want, let alone that good of Service from a Breeder...:wild: *

My first and best Breeder for Caesar did the same, detailed reports and pictures, for the entire period... I was overseas so She even kept and potty trained and Delivery was at 10 weeks on Caesar. It is very hard to find such a great Breeder to record daily development, and send reports and pictures weekly...

I was giving people another choice and this test has a ring of truth on what we have observed on both puppies we are getting..  It seems to work and I was impressed as it matched my Breeders and my own observations... Reinforced our decisions... I am hoping to give people another tool to help make such an important life changing decision, thats all...

Kind regards...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It would be tough if you could not get that. .......I still think even without detailed record keeping a good breeder will have some valuable insights.

I did feel the test gives some insight but it is one test one day one time and is limited in that regard. 

You may want to check out the PAWS test as well, our SAR team does use it when folks bring in puppies but we dont formally assess them until they are about a year old using a tool developed by FEMA for young adults.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

My advice still stands:

Do it twice, different days, and IMO maybe 80% accuracy if the responses are reasonably the same on different days...

Further*: *No I am not talking about doing it to ALL the puppies as you suggest, just verification on the one you would have picked running blind... It increases the odds of a Newbie, getting the RIGHT pup for the job they want to fill.. Or at least give them a pause to reflect... This is a single opportunity, at 49 days, 7 weeks, to get the job done.

It is better than depending on a guesstimate and good luck.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I had a buyer come to pick up "his/her" puppy and they started "administering" this test.....I asked what they were doing, and they said "puppy testing".......seriously???
There is nothing about a litter of puppies that I cannot tell you....they are MY puppies.....from MY dogs.
The WORSE thing is when someone "thinks" they have gathered a little bit of knowledge...and runs with it.....
Little pieces of read theories, read threads and given advice...is far worse than someone who knows nothing.....it can and many times causes more problems than it can possibly solve.
I will never allow anyone to "dominate" my puppies.....NO rollovers, NO hold downs, NO closing of mouths/muzzles.....and ABSOLUTELY NO CORRECTIONS......go find another breeder, if you feel you must do these things.....you would not hurt my feelings.

Pack order "changes" every time a puppy leaves, just like pack order can change on any given day...
Puppies develop their own personalities, traits and drives from birth till maturity.
A good breeder *knows* their dogs, bloodlines and capabilities.....better than any outsider with a "test" they read about....
JMO....nothing more...spoken from personal experience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lone Ranger said:


> It is better than depending on a guesstimate and good luck.


Or, they can just consult with the breeder (and owners of the dogs, if not the breeder) and discuss what they are looking for in their pup.

I'm helping to raise a pup for a friend right now and a potential buyer wanted to know how he reacted to a specific situation, so I said sure I was willing to test that and post a video. I won't however let random people come to my house and "test" dogs for this or that without any sort of explanation or prior relationship.

I think with picking breeders and puppies people just need to use common sense. There is no checklist that meets everyone's needs or expectations and no black/white way to do it. In the past I have purchased dogs sight unseen but my next dog I am picking myself and already have this agreement in writing. Why? Because I own and have raised from 7 weeks the dog that was bred so in this case I do feel qualified to choose my puppy (and will of course ask for the input from the breeder who is whelping the litter and caring for them). However the last time I got a dog, I chatted with the breeder on several occasions, giving examples of what I wanted and didn't want and the breeder was able to say "This is your puppy" when I first showed up to get him. You have to take more into consideration than just the pups in front of you and some arbitrary tests. There is the pedigree, the experience and knowledge of the breeder, and your relationship with the breeder and/or the dogs being bred, if applicable.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lies...you are correct.
BOTH the buyer and breeder need to converse. 
There is no black & white way to "picking a puppy".....all things must be considered.
Your breeder is your foundation....the "ground" that helps access the proper puppy for the buyer.
I have no problem with a "seasoned" buyer or breeder...assist with final choice of a puppy.

I simply have a problem with the "newperts" that think they can inform me, through "parroted" knowledge or readings....about my own puppies and dogs.
*THAT gets me going!* LOL


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Totally agree, Robin. Yours a great response. If someone doesn't like it, they can go somewhere else


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I had a buyer come to pick up "his/her" puppy and they started "administering" this test.....I asked what they were doing, and they said "puppy testing".......seriously???
> There is nothing about a litter of puppies that I cannot tell you....they are MY puppies.....from MY dogs.
> The WORSE thing is when someone "thinks" they have gathered a little bit of knowledge...and runs with it.....
> Little pieces of read theories, read threads and given advice...is far worse than someone who knows nothing.....it can and many times causes more problems than it can possibly solve.
> ...


:thumbup:

If the buyer has done their homework to begin with then they would have found a good breeder that knows their dogs. You can't in an hour with a litter of puppies and determine which is the best for you. The breeder I got my new puppy from sent me videos of all the puppies on almost a daily basis. Based on the what I saw in the videos I had my choice but did not voice it. I know the breeder, trust the breeder and have seen(and own one) a dozen or so of her dogs that I was impressed with. So when she had called me and said I was getting x puppy, I was shocked. He was one in all the videos that I was not overly impressed with. Rather than state what I thought I told her if he's the one she thinks fits ME best then that's the pup for me. She sent him and I could not be happier. It was the day to day that I didn't see that made her like this puppy over the others for me. 

I hope this made sense.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Just an example of "incorrect perception".....

*Puppy buyer just picked up a puppy from airport 8 1/2wks old. Buyer posts, "Puppy was nervous and anxious"......I read this and FREAK OUT!
Nervous and anxious?...this puppy?...no way.
So I ask..."What is she doing for you to believe she is exhibiting either of those behaviors?"

Buyer's response....."She was making noise when he picked her up from airport (in crate)...came out quickly and was licking his face. Then, when they got home...she followed him around, then started searching into the other rooms, all around the house."
She just didn't lay down and stay calm...she started to investigate the other rooms....so she seemed nervous and anxious.......
OMG...I replied.....she is showing her confidence and inquisitive character.....the following around is perfect! She is a baby, new to her surroundings, coming from a flight, separated from her siblings & all things known. She is showing her confidence by investigating all the rooms in your home without fear......THIS is NOT being nervous and having anxiety.
After she went outside and pottied, she played with the two small kids and fell asleep near the feet of the adult.

I almost fainted when I read the post......OMG.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

same page , same verse , same line as Robin !!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah the problem with these tests is that your average puppy buyer has maybe bought 5-10 puppies in their lifetime. If they're younger (like myself) they've really only dealt with one or maybe two puppies in their life. How is someone like me, supposed to figure out what the dog's response is to a test that is put in front of it? How do I compare that dog's response to another dog...and figure out where to rank the reaction. At the same time as I'm doing that, I'm supposed to figure out what the dog's heart beat is doing and monitor that?

On top of that...we're all biased, and all want things out of our puppy that are predetermined before we get there. This bias makes us tend to think a reaction is more to what we have read on the page and would like to see out of the puppy...rather than what the reaction actually is. So...if I want the dog to get a 4, its reaction might be a 2, but if I really like that puppy for some reason (coat being a huge factor in most people's decision) I might sway that closer to a 3 or maybe even a 4.

This current litter...has 3 male pups...a black, dark sable, and sable. I love the dark sable one (but we want a female so we're not getting him). When I spoke with the breeder, the dark sable is the most calm, the most reserved, and probably not the type of dog that would fit ME best. But I love his color, and I could easily convince myself (if the breeder gave me the choice) that that's the one I want and that he'd be fine for what I need him for (AKC obedience/agility/rally). Well the black is the most "alpha" and the regular sable is the most energetic. The regular sable would probably fit me and my venue best...but I'd still want the dark sable. And although he'd probably be just fine, and excel in that venue due to his lines...out of the 3 boys, he wouldn't be the most spectacular at it.

And another note on the structure...I know what a fully grown GSD is supposed to look like. I can tell you some structural faults in most dogs (if they are apparent). I can not for the life of me tell the structure of a puppy that is 6-8 weeks old. My breeder, and most of the ones on this forum, can easily tell what they expect that puppy to look like as a fully grown dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Or, people could find a good breeder and have him or her match them with the right puppy.

Yes, you have experience, but many of us do not. 

I, for one, would've had no idea where to even begin testing a puppy, even if I would have read instructions on the Internet.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Robin, you said it perfectly! 

I visited Djibouti's litter 2 or 3 times before picking him up but it was my conversations with his breeder that had me convinced we were well matched. My environment can be challenging (urban high crime neighborhhod, lotsa noise, commotion & kids), my home presents additional challenges (other pets including dogs, cats & a Macaw) & then there's me...cranky, demanding, bad tempered. 

I tried to be very clear with her on my needs & concerns. She had a stunning coatie I was drooling over but she told me he was poorly suited to my environment as he was very sweet but a mite timid. Her assessment indicated she was truly hearing what I'd been trying to convey. 

Of course it behooves buyers to be clear with breeders on what they're seeking & what they can't abide. I put my preferred physical characteristics last on my list & let her know that those preferences were mild. (For example, I love sable coaties. Djibouti is a BT stock coat. I still prefer sable coaties & I'm still very, very, very glad I have Djibouti.)


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

O.P. here,

Look, I basically agree with all of you that say that the Breeder should know his puppies. My Black GSD WD had such a Breeder. I got pictures and reports every week to twice a week... 

However, I am looking for a specific Genotype and Phenotype, and when I found (My Black GSDs Breeder found) the second Breeder did not do much of a good job in that respect. Now you in America have vastly more resources, here in Oz this was the only, without travelling thousands of miles and flying with a puppy...

The Volhard test was done by a retired K-9 Police Trainer, and the results were reassuring. All of you that have spoken up a Breeder, that sound offended, just understand if I was near you, I would have let you tell me about the development and personality traits of each puppy. Here, we do not have the choices, and *Volhard I thought was a great asset.... It certainly worked well for us, and confirmed our choices and what we saw on our visits.. *

It is not a boogey-man test, it is simple and non-invasive, and when it worked so well for us, I thought some of you Newbies might benefit from it if you have your doubts...

Kind regards, only trying to help, You Good Breeders do not need to be defensive, if I had you on the case I would have done it your way..

lone Ranger


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i was at a breeder's place who rarely sells dogs to the public watching a litter of pups play, the breeder only ever sells green and trained dogs. the buyer arrived with a folder and a pen to do tests and select the puppy going word for word off the leerburg puppy tests which the breeder was unaware of the details. the buyer explained a little and then wanted to see the pups one by one which the breeder consented to (no big deal), the guy bought his own frying pan and dropped it on the hard floor and watched the recovery - all good - recorded results for each pup etc then he strted to hold a pup on its back while it started to strugle the breeder jumped straight in and stopped it in about a millisecond, the guy explained this is international best practice as taught by a world expert....the breeder terminated the tests and i know the next test was going to be pinching a toe untill the puppy squealed, i intervened for the well being of the puppy buyer who was about to get his butt kicked - the puppy buyer then spread word that the breeder is to scared to allow best practice testing on his pups and is therefore a byb, the breeder now forbids any member of the public to enter his property, view, test or purchase a pup.

hasn't hurt his business one iota, in fact he just exported two started detection dogs for the best price he has ever got, i think around $15 000 a piece straight into service.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Great replies

Just wanted to add, it is NOT hard to find a good breeder and a good dog/puppy

When one finds a good breeder, everything else should fall into place. 

BE EDUCATED as a buyer! Simple as that!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lone Ranger said:


> O.P. here,
> 
> Look, I basically agree with all of you that say that the Breeder should know his puppies. My Black GSD WD had such a Breeder. I got pictures and reports every week to twice a week...
> 
> ...


I think the reason we're all posting the way we are is because your thread title pretty much states if you're a puppy buyer, you should do this when picking your puppy. No where does it state that you should recruit a retired police K9 handler to do the test so that you have someone there with more experience than you have.

We want to limit people finding your thread and thinking that this is the way to do it. I get it, you have less "reputable breeders" where you're at, but then you should state that in your thread. In general (at least in America/Germany) its not difficult to find a good breeder that would do all the things for you and pick the right dog for you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lone ranger, no offense but I don't really accept the excuse. If I was in an area where good breeders/puppies were exceptionally hard to find, I would save up a little longer, start a conversation with a good breeder farther out (I'm talking even possibly another continent), and just fly out to get a puppy and take it back. I'm getting my next puppy from California and there's a chance I might just fly out and pick him up rather than shipping. I will not see the litter before I either pick him up or he is delivered to me. I know what I want and I trust that with the breeder's help we can pick together without me having to roll puppies around.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with Lies! The whole logic of doing your own testing on a puppy because there are no local reputable breeders who know their pups well enough to be able to identify a pup with the attributes you are looking for is very off. 

Why would you even get a pup from such a breeder? If they are that clueless, inexperienced, and ignorant about the traits that will make for a good working litter, and do not know how to specifically identify those traits among their pups, what makes a person think that they will find their next protection dog among the litter?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

If I can't trust the breeder to be able to pick out the best pup (maybe in some cases a choice of two to discuss further) for me after I have told them what sex and other criteria - along with why I want such - through various conversations then I know I need to look elsewhere. 

Nothing wrong in asking how they came to their decision but the trust in the breeder knowing their pup should be there. I also need to trust that the breeder will tell me that none of their current pups fit my needs and though disappointed I would rather wait for another litter and end up with the right pup.

Right now I am looking for a male pup for sometime in 2014. I have a female in mind that I believe would be the one I want a pup from, but if the breeder (who I have spoken with for years on this upcoming pup and that I trust) tells me that she believes I would be better with a pup from a different female then I will go with that decision.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree with the comments made by Lies & ILGHAUS. For one thing, I've seen dogs that appeared solid as pups but matured into fearful, nervous adults. I want a breeder who thoroughly knows her dogs, their background & what to expect as the pups mature. Travelling to a good breeder, or having a pup shipped, is vastly preferable to settling for a breeder I don't trust on something as basic as knowing her dogs.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There was actually a study done to prove the inaccuracy of the test (but unfortunately I can't find a link to it) by Margaret Young, U of North Carolina. I found this tidbit in Bruce Fogle's _The Dog's Mind._


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Robin and others said it perfectly. I agree with them completely. A buyer throwing a one time test at a pup is NOT the best way to find the right puppy.

Beyond that, IF someone was going to do such a thing and allow a puppy test to be the end all and be all of puppy selection, the Volhard is pretty much the LAST puppy test I would use. Particularly for GSDs. Much of it is pointless, it completely ignores many facets of temperament and does nothing to test them, and many of the conclusions it draws in it's attempt to pigeon hole puppies into numerical categories are potentially gross misinterpretations of the puppy's behavior. If one has to use a test, find a different one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> For one thing, I've seen dogs that appeared solid as pups but matured into fearful, nervous adults. I want a breeder who thoroughly knows her dogs, their background & what to expect as the pups mature.


Yep opposite too. When I got Pan I wanted a high drive tough dog very well suited for Schutzhund at a high level and crossing over into other protection sports and performance events. As a puppy he was mellow. Not lazy or lethargic, still very confident but in a more cool sort of way. He was quiet (no barking) and wasn't real into toys, fetch, or tugging. However around 6 months a lightbulb went on and all the drives kicked in. By 1 year old he was exactly what I had asked for and at age 1 he broke the breed speed record in flyball at his first tournament, definitely NOT a lazy mellow dog. When I picked him up at 7 weeks there was only half the litter left and they pointed him out to me. I didn't challenge it or attempt to test him against the other puppies there. We had already discussed at length what I wanted and why, and I'd already considered the same breeder years ago before I got a previous GSD. If I hadn't trusted them or trusted what they were producing I would have gone elsewhere, not taken a gamble doing a test on puppies I only spent a few hours with. The breeder knew the lines and it was a repeat litter (another reason I trusted them to pick my puppy).

Now I'm not totally against testing puppies if you are somehow already involved with the breeder or the breeding, but I wouldn't advocate that a newbie can have a much higher rate of success if they are to do this test once or twice and pick their puppy.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

There's quite a few nice working dog breeders over here!!! We're not as remote or backward as some people seem to think 
I'd be reluctant to get a baby puppy shipped from another continent just cuz of how far away Australia actually is but I know plenty of people that have imported them at 4 - 6 month old without any problems. Unfortunately our quarantine laws are REALLY strict so it's not an easy undertaking. You couldn't pick the puppy up from the airport and take it straight home, depending on where it comes from it will have to spend some time in a quarantine facility I'm pretty sure.

LOl Lisje I think flying from Michigan to California is similar to flying from Queensland to Melbourne here  I would not hesitate to fly a few hours to pick up a puppy interstate.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mooch said:


> LOl Lisje I think flying from Michigan to California is similar to flying from Queensland to Melbourne here  I would not hesitate to fly a few hours to pick up a puppy interstate.


Probably, but if the situation is as dire as long ranger makes it sound, I would also not hesitate to fly to Europe and get a dog there either, if it's that or pick from a breeder I don't really trust. Flying with the dog as "baggage" as opposed to shipping is different (I'd be more reluctant to just ship the dog). I know people who have flown with dozens of dogs internationally.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Yeah that makes sense, some of my friends breed working Dobes they go to Germany to buy dogs. So yeah people definitely do that here too 

The only setback for that scenario is just cost - but then the OP did say he was very well off so that's not a problem. 
Sadly personally I could not afford to do that 
But yeah we do have some good trustworthy breeders here too  


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There are a number of small breeders in my area, but I didn't feel that they were producing what I was looking for - so I searched for a breeder that did produce what I was looking for, and found one far away (like 2000 miles away, in a different country). If I just wanted a house pet, I would have gone to the shelter and adopted. But I was looking for specific lines, specific temperament traits, specific drives and energy levels. I really didn't feel that I would be able to find this depth of insight into a pup on my own, puppy testing or no puppy testing. Instead, I talked to people that I felt where somewhat in my experience and life-style equivalent, asked about their satisfaction with their dogs and about the breeder, and went with that. 

The understanding and insight into the lines from my breeder was pretty amazing. She was sending out weekly reports of the pups' progress to the potential new owners - at the time, I was not looking at that litter, so didn't pay much attention to them. I ended up with one of the pups at a later date, and when dog was all grown up, I got curious and asked for the final pupdate that described the dog - I just about fell off my chair at how accurate the predictions were. 

Another important point about finding a breeder that can do proper evals on their pups, is that some pups vary more from day to day than others. Gryffon was such a dog, help back for further observations as he seemed to vary between lazy couch potato, not interested in much of anything pup, and high level competition prospect with extreme drives. Depending on what you were looking for, and what day you were coming to look at the puppies, you may have ended up choosing the opposite of what you wanted. An ethical, reponsible breeder will hold back a pup like this until they have a better handle on what kind of dog they will mature into. 

As Gryff matured, the two extremes of his temperament evened out and solidified, so he is a perfect, completely consistent balanced pup - not extreme in either way. When the breeder said, "This pup is perfect for you, and will completely fit your expectations", I completely trusted her. 

So more reason to take the time and effort to find such breeders, and not 'settle' for less. Hoping that the one-time test that a buyer administers will reveal secrets about the core of the puppies that no-one else, including the breeder, has been able to discern is not very realistic.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lucia makes a very good point on puppy testing. They evaluate only a small snapshot in time. Puppies vary a lot from day to day and hour to hour. The craziest in the litter may test as a dullard if he's overly tired at test time because he just spent 2 hours zooming around and harassing his littermates. The dullest in the litter may test as much more than he is because he slept through all of that and is now fresh while the others are tired. This is the one big problem with puppy testing - trying to distill personality into a few minutes of observations.

We do puppy tests, as most breeders do, but they are only a small part of the overall picture. We don't utilize them to tell us who the pups are, as after 8 weeks of living with them and watching them we've already pretty much figured that out. What we use them for is to see if the observations we've made over those weeks and who we believe the pup to be holds true when he is removed from his comfort zone, placed in a strange location by himself with a strange person and no familiar humans or littermates for back up.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello GSD Lovers :wub:

Most of all what you have said is good, and works with good conciencious Breeders that will take the time and notes... I guess why my O.P. situation is here we do not have many of the larger boned big Working Dog Breeders, or that many good Breeders because our population is about like only ONE of your States, over an area the size of North America.. 

I thought this was a valid tool in making sure you had the right tempermant. I think those of you that talk it down, are doing a dis-service to someone in a remote area like we are in Australia or some other part of the world. Your point, is more valid where you have dozens of Breeders in good range. My point is of value to those in a remote setting. 

Even for me, I am not going to fly down to visit puppies 2,200 kms in Melbourne Australia, or more like 5000 kms to Perth, several times since birth, to make sure I am getting the right one... Myself? I got lucky and found a Breeder of Caesar that put me IN with the Breeders, so I got pick of the litter from a good Breeder. But they are not the majority, in fact in my opinion, it appears to be the minority case.. I had my choice of two, as my main mentor and Breeder was taking the other for her Breeding Program, and I five weeks to make my mind up because of being on the INSIDE with the Breeders. 

Kind regards, only meant to show a test that validated what the Breeder thought and it was minimal and not even noticed by the puppy... It could be a HUGE help to someone operating alone in a remote area. 

*I will have nothing more to say about it, except that most of you that responded are from priveldged regions with plenty of Breeders.. My point is valid for more remote regions without such great resources...*

lone Ranger in Oz...


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

and you are doing a disservice to the excellent breeders that ARE in australia, right in yr neighbourhood in fact, jens knows as much about judging and breeding the best schuts stock as anyone else in the world, yes he is in germany now and has switched to mainly mals but his networks and legacy is and will be nothing but positive for generations of the GSD breed in aus, did you even contact him, do you know who he is?

you have mentioned many times yr abundant wealth and free time and you don't even make a $100 2 hour flight to victoria to see the best genetics available in the world in multi-generational proven bloodlines by breeders involved in every aspect of the working GSD??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> or that many good Breeders because our population is about like only ONE of your States, over an area the size of North America..


As is Canada. Population equal to that of California, spread over a landmass GREATER than that of Australia. But let's not make excuses, and I will not kid myself that I can, better than a knowledgeable breeder, do a one-time evaluation based on written instructions of a puppy test I have never seen administered before. 

Many in my training club have had pups flown from the East Coast of Canada to the West Coast, from the US, from Europe. If one is serious about getting a good pup, it is not something that a person should gamble on, hoping that they will have the 'luck' to find that diamond in the ruff amid an average litter bred by average breeders, who don't even know enough to evaluate their own pups for people interested in working prospects. But they were local, so is that the only thing to consider?


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

x11 said:


> and you are doing a disservice to the excellent breeders that ARE in australia, right in yr neighbourhood in fact, jens knows as much about judging and breeding the best schuts stock as anyone else in the world, yes he is in germany now and has switched to mainly mals but his networks and legacy is and will be nothing but positive for generations of the GSD breed in aus, did you even contact him, do you know who he is?
> 
> you have mentioned many times yr abundant wealth and free time and you don't even make a $100 2 hour flight to victoria to see the best genetics available in the world in multi-generational proven bloodlines by breeders involved in every aspect of the working GSD??


x11, true to form you are almost always negative... I go all over Australia with my Business.. I spent two weeks in Melbourne before I bought Caesar..

x11, I spend my time here to try and share and help others. 

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

where have you asked me to not respond to yr posts, please provide link cos i missed it???

yes you have called me negative and said something like people like me will never get anywhere, what does this have to do with dogs??

and how exactly am i negative - cos i called you out???

(above reference removed by ADMIN).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*ADMIN NOTE: 

Please keep the personal snipping back and forth off the board and stick to discussion of the subject at hand. No one has the right to tell another member to not post in a thread. No one "owns" a thread. You may need to review the board rules in order to avoid warnings and edits. 

Thank you! *


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i get edited for for pointing out what someone else wrote while the initial comment remains???


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No, it's removed - you just saw your post before I was finished with the other one.


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