# Mixing Working Lines with West German Show Lines



## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

So while I did previously have a negative perception towards Show Lines, I've learned that they're not that bad if bred properly.

While mixing bloodlines seems to be common among working lines, it seems to be something less common to mix working lines with show lines. Also seems to be frowned upon among working line enthusiasts.

But what about when they're bred properly? I recently saw a video on types of German Shepherds by David Harris from Protection Dog Sales, and it seems like a relatively large amount of his dogs are Working Lines mixed with West German Show Lines.






If you watch a good amount of this guy's videos, you know that his dogs are fully trained and raised to be Home Protection Dogs rather than some all out working Military style dog. In fact, he seems to be against creating those types of dogs as they're not the types of dogs he wants for regular people.

So the idea here seems to be to create a dog with the calm nature of a show line dog but with the hardiness and drive of a working dog. Basically, create a dog that can be taken anywhere, be around anyone but when the moment comes, they will defend and hold their ground against criminals and evil people.

I'm definitely on board with this, if someone out there properly breeds Working and Show Line Mixes, they sound like they'd make a great dog. Idk if I can handle a full on prey driven working dog lol. Probably could but not entirely sure about it.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Well, that's assuming when you breed two dogs that you will get the best qualities of each. The more different they are the more "all over the place" the mix of qualities are going to be in the litter. You may have a couple of puppies with the worst of both then what do you do?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A lot of things sound great, and then reality takes over.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

There is no reason a well bred working line dog can't do any of the things you mention. They can make wonderful companion/family dogs. No need to add show line to the pedigree for that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shepdad said:


> Well, that's assuming when you breed two dogs that you will get the best qualities of each. The more different they are the more "all over the place" the mix of qualities are going to be in the litter. You may have a couple of puppies with the worst of both then what do you do?


Tell people they're civil and raise the price? Lol.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Shepdad said:


> Well, that's assuming when you breed two dogs that you will get the best qualities of each. *The more different they are the more "all over the place" the mix of qualities are going to be in the litter.* You may have a couple of puppies with the worst of both then what do you do?


This is exactly how my girls turned out, you wouldn't even know they're related. If an unsuspecting buyer came home with Tuke, they'd be fine, she easy, but her sister Zoe they'd be way over their heads, no consistency in their litter. And Zoey has far more prey, hunt, and possessiveness than my Czech WL. Luckily she's very biddabie and loves to train.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Does mixing lines actually lead to improving the breed in general or just add to the dog population? I wonder why you want to breed a dog to improve the line? Shouldn't you just *not* breed this dog then? I am not a breeder so just being curious.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Tell people they're civil and raise the price? Lol.


Marketing 101 mixed with Biology 101. :laugh2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Rin Tin Tin wasn't a black and red was he?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So in Iris' 8 month old video it says she is protection trained....?? She will protect the child she is playing ball with at 8 mos??

Super Dog German Shepherd Female - Iris von Prufenpuden


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

My first GSD, and my first large breed working dog, was a working line GSD. We had to manage some dog-aggression, but other than that he was wonderful. I don't think one has to be a dog-whisperer to live with a working line GSD, just be committed to training, provide some exercise, don't be a complete push over, and start out with a pup from a good breeder...which is pretty much what I'd say of any GSD. 

I can see why working line breeders wouldn't need or want to include show lines in their program, but I can't help but think that it would be helpful to add some working lines into the modern show lines--if it was done by someone knowledgeable about both lines. If done well, it seems like it could potentially bring balance to the showline conformation and temperament. I know the argument that it could bring out the worst of both sides. But what if a showline (say WGSL) had some drive and a confident temperament and the dogs several generations back in its pedigree did as well. Is it impossible to find a good match between lines? I know color is not important, and I'd never choose a dog based on color, but with that said, it would make me really happy to see some black or bicolor WGSL, or a black-and-tan saddle back working line GSDs. 

I'm not a breeder, and there is not much chance that I'll ever be one, so no danger of me ruining the breed any time soon.  I do think that it is interesting to think about.


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## RuthArt (Oct 25, 2017)

I was just wondering about this the other day, it's seems the working lines are smaller but have better muscle mass. Why not
breed working line with show line? I like a confident dog but not one that I have to worry about aggression. The 3 dogs
I had from Grunenfeld Kennels over the last 30 years were the best temperament I could ask for. I never got them for 
protection, just as companions and to bark. Wiena was the sweetest dog and she would bark and look ferocious on command.
But I never asked her to protect me. But all 3 of those dogs had bad hips and Hemangiosarcoma which ultimately took
them from me. I will probably not ever have another dog because I have 2 cats who are terrorists toward dogs. I can't
even adopt a rescue now.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The Amish around here have been mixing lines for a while. Matter of fact they'll mix any lines.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So in Iris' 8 month old video it says she is protection trained....?? She will protect the child she is playing ball with at 8 mos??
> 
> Super Dog German Shepherd Female - Iris von Prufenpuden


30 grand. He knows a winner when he see's one. Nevermind.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > So in Iris' 8 month old video it says she is protection trained....?? She will protect the child she is playing ball with at 8 mos??
> ...


Is that a real thing or is it one of those making a joke of over priced dogs thing.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

sebrench;8778602
I can see why working line breeders wouldn't need or want to include show lines in their program said:


> There have actually been breeders, I think mainly from Russia and the Ukraine, who have been mixing working lines to show lines to get black GSDs w/showline conformation. There seems to be a market demand for it. I think the quickest workaround to getting consistently high levels of utility working dog qualities in showlines is for the SV to simply start awarding VA placements to black and to sable dogs. Some years back there was Timo B., a faded sable of pure SL lines, who was VA2 and supposedly should have been VA1 if he was red and black. Sold to China for something like $300k and never heard from again. Because the GSL community has backed itself into a small corner in color, the only way for them to get colors other than saddle B&T is to breed to black and to sable WL.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its right there, in that link.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I watched the link. Even watched a video. But that made me think even more it could be a spoof thing. Especially when they said the last name proof in pudding


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mixing show and working lines can be a real disaster. Especially, ASL X WL dogs. You can wind up with drivey dogs that lack the nerve strength to handle the drive. Also, nervy dogs that lack the nerve strength to handle the aggression and drive. Low thresholds and high drive can be a very bad mixture. 

Also, working line dogs are not necessarily smaller than show line dogs, regardless of line a GSD is a medium sized dog. An American bred dog may come in all sizes, but these dogs are not SL or WL dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> So while I did previously have a negative perception towards Show Lines, I've learned that they're not that bad if bred properly.
> 
> While mixing bloodlines seems to be common among working lines, it seems to be something less common to mix working lines with show lines. Also seems to be frowned upon among working line enthusiasts.
> 
> ...


The only thing I am impressed by is the asking price of his dogs, if he actually gets it. Not overly impressed by the dogs. Nothing against the dogs, they seem to be ok. 

I'd be very skeptical of the part of your post that I bolded. I doubt he supplies dogs that will really "hold their ground against criminals and evil people."


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> The only thing I am impressed by is the asking price of his dogs, if he actually gets it. Not overly impressed by the dogs. Nothing against the dogs, they seem to be ok.
> 
> I'd be very skeptical of the part of your post that I bolded. I doubt he supplies dogs that will really "hold their ground against criminals and evil people."


I wonder if they'll still retrieve and do tricks?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> Mixing show and working lines can be a real disaster. Especially, ASL X WL dogs. You can wind up with drivey dogs that lack the nerve strength to handle the drive. Also, nervy dogs that lack the nerve strength to handle the aggression and drive. Low thresholds and high drive can be a very bad mixture.
> 
> Also, working line dogs are not necessarily smaller than show line dogs, regardless of line a GSD is a medium sized dog. An American bred dog may come in all sizes, but these dogs are not SL or WL dogs.


all of the above .

and when did this (cliche) become a given "calm nature of a show line dog"

the more self assured , the more confident they are the more "calm" they are because 
they are not hyper vigilant of their environment -- and if poop happens , the nerve is there
to handle the situation


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

Oh how I wish my WGSL was calm. 
She’ll be 5 months in December. Her favorite things are playing tug and play attacking toys. She’ll fetch, but she gets bored. If I don’t take her out several times a day for intense play, she will literally eat the furniture. 

Today she heard something in the woods. She never growled or barked, just stood still and the hair on her back stood up like a mowhawk. Such a menacing puppy. Lol. I’m not sure what’s she’s going to be when she grows up, but I doubt calm will be in the description.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Mixing lines could And have led to a mess and that can happen without mixing lines -but they also had led to successful breedings and that’s is done by breeders who know their dogs and very experienced. Sure their are plenty of people that just breed with out a thought to mixing lines. Experienced Breeders who were not happy with the results but also breeders who produced nice dogs mixing the lines. If someone gets a gsd from mixed lines I would suggest a breeder who is highly recommended. There was a poster on here andaka who had asl/ working lines. There are many working lines that go to actual pet homes. Find a reputable breeder and tell them what you looking for. The three different lines of German Shepherds including my workIng line , American line and West german showlines -none were hyper crazed or insecure nerve buckets, Golden retrievers or couch potatoes but healthy active dogs who need to be kept busy physically and mentally to stay healthy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Joys said:


> Oh how I wish my WGSL was calm.
> She’ll be 5 months in December. Her favorite things are playing tug and play attacking toys. She’ll fetch, but she gets bored. If I don’t take her out several times a day for intense play, she will literally eat the furniture.
> 
> Today she heard something in the woods. She never growled or barked, just stood still and the hair on her back stood up like a mowhawk. Such a menacing puppy. Lol. I’m not sure what’s she’s going to be when she grows up, but I doubt calm will be in the description.


when we are talking about calm we are not talking about a level of physicality - although that kind of energy is part of the equation

calm is a centered emotional state . 

self-regulating , organized , off switch - the predator not the prey

you said this
"Today she heard something in the woods. She never growled or barked, just stood still and the hair on her back stood up like a mowhawk. "

that is like a pre-flight check in --

the dog is frightened , not a menacing pup.
any more pressure and she would have run for the hills

" I’m not sure what’s she’s going to be when she grows up"

there was a pretty good indication of what to expect when you took her home 
and from descriptions given in other posts and this one.

there won't be much change in her nature so you have to change in how you 
manage her so that she has some trust and confidence that YOU give the dog 

part of being successful is understanding her and being realistic in your expectations


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> So while I did previously have a negative perception towards Show Lines, I've learned that they're not that bad if bred properly.
> 
> While mixing bloodlines seems to be common among working lines, it seems to be something less common to mix working lines with show lines. Also seems to be frowned upon among working line enthusiasts.
> 
> ...


Just remember... there are experts in _dogs_ and experts in _marketing_. 

Don't let flashy videos, large price tags, and smooth talk fool you into which type of expert you are dealing with.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Joy said [ Quote

Ahh, but is that all?

" hackling mowhawk , 

Chaos, half Tiekerhook at 8yrs
The dog in the distance ? Hackling, running, but not from, rather

circles.

Nice puppy, never went to class. Working Line.

Nerve Bag. It happens Joy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think...that if you mix lines you have to have good genetic knowledge. Say you are breeding GSL to GWL.....it’s good to know if your GSL has strong foundation from Canto or Quanto or Mutz. There were different strengths in temperaments/ drives in these three dogs. The GSL is saturated on two of these dogs and a few GSL breeders still have strong beginnings to Mutz. If you are using the GWL you should want to know if it’s the newer Timmy/Troll saturation, or maybe the older Mink/ Fero foundation, or even a foundation in the older German working lines. There are differences in temperament/drives in these mixtures also. Then I think you would have to assess( as Slam/Carmen mentioned) whether the drives in one are too much for the nerves in other. 
Lastly, it is important to know if the dogs that you are mixing from different lines are representative of THEIR lines. Example: suppose you are using a WL dog that is calm with good moderate drives, BUT the majority of the litter from which this dog came from were screamers with intense prey drive.....or the SL dog was strong with excellent drives, but a majority of the pups from the SL dog’s litter were sensitive and mellow.....will the resulting breeding reflect mostly the combination of the great SL dog and great WL dog ??? I think genetic background is more important than the dogs in front of me, but I understand most don’t see things that way or more breeders would have in-depth knowledge of the dogs they breed. Hey, but this is only my perspective, and is probably outdated like me!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not only all of what Cliff said -- 
but this plan would have to be so well thought out every which way , up, down and sideways -- and there needs to be a REASON for doing so .

that means you need to know how and where you are going to direct the resulting pups for the next generation .

that means you have to critically evaluate whether your particular male and female representatives of show and working gave you what you wanted to achieve .

maybe , maybe not . They may be okay pups -- but did they meet your goal .

this all means a LONG-term breeding strategy.

then you have to be totally capable of communicating your plan -- and providing a valid reason and evidence that it was a good idea , because the show line people don't want them and the working line people may be club level or pet owners but the breeders will be hesitant to be part of your "experiment"


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> not only all of what Cliff said --
> but this plan would have to be so well thought out every which way , up, down and sideways -- and there needs to be a REASON for doing so .
> 
> that means you need to know how and where you are going to direct the resulting pups for the next generation .
> ...


I see people mixing lines often. There's no explaining anything to anyone as they will all go to the uninformed pet market. I know some highly educated people who have done little to no research before getting any breed of dog. If the male or female was imported from Germany? Wow! these must be nice pups! Throw in the word "champion" into the conversation and it's a done deal. Even with "reputable" breeders many pups will go to pet homes. Pet homes drive the market and mixing lines is just another sales point or simply the dogs available.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nigel said:


> I see people mixing lines often. There's no explaining anything to anyone as they will all go to the uninformed pet market. I know some highly educated people who have done little to no research before getting any breed of dog. If the male or female was imported from Germany? Wow! these must be nice pups! Throw in the word "champion" into the conversation and it's a done deal. Even with "reputable" breeders many pups will go to pet homes. Pet homes drive the market and mixing lines is just another sales point or simply the dogs available.


so true , so very very true.

no . Throw in the words world class --- or elite. Find me a site that doen't point out the rich black and deep red pigment before any mention of temperament . 
Find me a site that doesn't crow VA -- when the "best" dog that could have brought about some benefits is some high SG dog -- not as much appeal to vanity and belonging to the exalted group of the "world's best" .

Find me a site where there is any second generation breeding -- they are all direct import to import progeny.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

Thanks for the input Carmspack. I don’t want to high jack the post, but yes we need a lot of work. 
I was just pointing out that not all showlines are calm and “self-regulating.”


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