# PSA vs other sports.



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Does PSA show more of the utility of the GSD than other sports?

I'm not personally involved but after seeing videos I found PSA very complex and interesting. 

Does anyone think it is a better test for example than schutzhund?

Does it require too much time to get a dog titled?

I understand the powers to be would not change the way things are but I'm curious.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Moderators.

This should probably be moved to Other Protection sports.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

*PSA* Protection Sports Association provide and outlet for civilian competition in Obedience and controlled Protection, heavy decoy and environmental pressure of the sport requiring dogs of strongest nerve and clearest head to overcome distractions and at the same time performing multiple tasks giving by handler, upper level competition are all suprised scnenario, no routine.

*Schutzhund* a sport that requires a high level of handler commitment, a strong working dog and all routine training. The scoring is based on precision of the exercises including a 3 phase sport; tracking, obedience and protection. If you can take a puppy and train to Schutzhund 3 then you have become a dog trainer.

I copied this from my club site (hope they don't care) I think it breaks down the two well. I currently train PSA and like that their is no routine so you never know what you are going to get at trail. At our club we are a multi sport club. I like like both sports but for now I'm doing just PSA with Circe.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

That is what i found interesting. The dogs in PSA don't know exactly what's coming next. Again I'm not involved in either but PSA seems to my uneducated opinion to be much more of a test to the dogs abilities.

The more regimented sports are obviously not easy and there is a lot of training in any sport.

In schutzhund it seems some dogs are so trained to what they know is coming that they sort of sleep walk through it.

These are just observations so please don't jump all over me for them. 

I know there is tons of training in schutzhund and I respect those who have the commitment to that sport or any other.

It just seems like PSA would be harder to title in and would wash out dogs with weak nerves.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

dog training is dog training. change the order around in a schutzhund even for all I care, it's not going to make much difference. an exercise is an exercise, train it and be done with it. 

because one sport starts training with puppies on plastic bottles, doesn't mean they're any more environmentally sound than one that doesn't. It means they saw more **** as a puppy.

Because someone can do a down before a sit or vice versa doesn't really mean much to me. Each sport has its own little quirks


----------



## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

I'am working on getting a more educated answer for you. I will get you an answer soon. LOL Great quetions.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

crackem said:


> dog training is dog training. change the order around in a schutzhund even for all I care, it's not going to make much difference. an exercise is an exercise, train it and be done with it.
> 
> because one sport starts training with puppies on plastic bottles, doesn't mean they're any more environmentally sound than one that doesn't. It means they saw more **** as a puppy.
> 
> Because someone can do a down before a sit or vice versa doesn't really mean much to me. Each sport has its own little quirks


Well I sure don't disagree about the training.
However firing a starter pistol by a dogs head while a dog is engaged is a lot different than a dog chewing on plastic bottles as a puppy.

Im just speculating on whether it might be a better overall test of A GSD for drives, nerves, temperament etc..


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> However firing a starter pistol by a dogs head while a dog is engaged is a lot different than a dog chewing on plastic bottles as a puppy.


While that's true, most dogs in sports where they fire starter pistols close to the dog heavily condition it. So while it's a good indivation of nerves no doubt, even the most iffy dog could probably have this done enough they get used to it.

PSA definitely does look interesting though.


----------



## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

PSA is a true test for GSD nevers from what I'm told. Also from what i see and experienced. I'm interested in others opinions and thoughts on the topic.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

dogs in all sports are so conditioned to what they're going to see in a trial, I hardly think it's a test of anything sometimes. It's why I like breeders that work their own dogs. They know what's in them, where they came from and how they responded to things.

I'm not saying a properly administered trial doesn't show you things, but I could care less about a starter pistol or a clatter stick or a stick hit or a couple of jugs filled with stones.

It may do something to a dog that has never seen them before, and they'll all react a bit differently. For the people that train in those sports??? those dogs have seen it all a thousand times before.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

crackem said:


> dogs in all sports are so conditioned to what they're going to see in a trial, I hardly think it's a test of anything sometimes. It's why I like breeders that work their own dogs. They know what's in them, where they came from and how they responded to things.
> 
> I'm not saying a properly administered trial doesn't show you things, but I could care less about a starter pistol or a clatter stick or a stick hit or a couple of jugs filled with stones.
> 
> It may do something to a dog that has never seen them before, and they'll all react a bit differently. For the people that train in those sports??? those dogs have seen it all a thousand times before.


Just so I understand. Your not saying that any dog could just be trained if repeated enough times. Or are you? I would think dogs with lousy nerves would wash out if certain distractions were applied and they couldn't handle it.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Sure. People train through problems in any sport on any dog. Sure a lousy dog can be conditioned. And then the environment has to be tailored to suit the conditioned behavior. But even a good dog might show some insecurity when placed on a really tough helper for the first time. It's how the dog reacts and recovers on the first or second time. In any protection sport it's never the trial that shows you what you really have, it was the years of training before hand.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> Just so I understand. Your not saying that any dog could just be trained if repeated enough times. Or are you? I would think dogs with lousy nerves would wash out if certain distractions were applied and they couldn't handle it.


 I"m not saying "any" dog because seriously, some dogs ca,n't leave their front yards.

But a dog that doesn't have good nerves can be conditioned to clatter sticks, plastic jugs, starter pistols, caution tape laced hula hoops, rock filled jugs and all sorts of other things. and still pass.

Now if you want to say a properly run PSA trial will test a dog better than a wink, wink schtuzhund trial, who's to argue what easier to pass. But then I could give a wink wink PSA trial too and make all sorts of dogs pass.

Make everything legit and, I don't think anything has anything on any other sport really.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I hear you both but I can't imagine why anyone would want to waste a lot of training time on a dog with bad nerves. Even if the dog was trainable.

Seems like it would definitely be worth trying to get the best nerves you can to begin with. 

Crackem. It would be great if there were no wink, wink trials in any sport.

Is that where the money comes in regarding trials?


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The exercises are repeated till the dog "gets it" in PSA as far as I know. It's no way near as intense as Schutzhund, Schutzhund wash outs can easily work PSA we see it every day.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

One of the best dogs that I've ever had the pleasure of owning was my Rottweiler female...Luna.
I'm from Chicago......North Ave & California Ave. to be a little more precise....but have also lived in Wicker Park, Bucktown and the Pilsen Area.
*Heavy gang infested areas.*
Gun shots, sirens, screaming, unbelievably loud vehicles, mobs of people etc..etc...
NOTHING phased this dog. She grew up from 8 wks old hearing shot guns going off through out the day on a daily basis.
SHE was my personal protection dog......bite on command without hesitation.
She was also trained to ScH1. Was my home companion & my children's playmate.
I think good dogs can do well in either sport....there was not much known about PSA back then...at least not to me.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

PSA is (generally speaking) a better test of genetics, and Sch is a better test of training. Our SDA club sometimes trains with PSA groups and a few of our members train for PSA. They are different animals and both are good for training a dog. It is somewhat alarming how many GS attempt PSA and you quickly see they are not cut out for it,(not all but WAY too many), as opposed to Mals and Dutchies. But some of this is attrbutable to nerves and some of this is attributed to training. Many Sch dogs have lead a very sheltered training life of pattern and routine training. This is just a fact. For whatever reason. If dogs get to be 4 or 5 years old and have only worked on grass, or perfect weather, or perfect decoys, or Sch sleeves, or no distractions outside the routine, then even if these dogs have the genetics to do say PSA or KNPV or Police/patrol work, the lack of exposure over time will make it difficult for all but the exceptional dog. The training is Sch has become very exact. I like both for different reasons, and their are good dogs in both, the main difference is marginal or deficient dogs usually wash out of PSA, they can make it through Sch with training and time and routine.JMO


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I tried to edit to add more and was timed out and couldn't figure out how to fix it. 
Just wanted to say that I think Sch obedience gives the best obedience foundation of all the protection sports, and by the time a dog has a Sch 1 level of obedience is really prepared to go to more advanced type work that entails more distractions, work that is not patterned or routine. Both are good as I said earlier, before the alter worshippers think I am knocking Sch. Just Different animals!.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

PSA people train for "random" and "never seen before" scenarios all the time. Just saying ...


----------



## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> PSA is (generally speaking) a better test of genetics, and Sch is a better test of training. Our SDA club sometimes trains with PSA groups and a few of our members train for PSA. They are different animals and both are good for training a dog. It is somewhat alarming how many GS attempt PSA and you quickly see they are not cut out for it,(not all but WAY too many), as opposed to Mals and Dutchies. But some of this is attrbutable to nerves and some of this is attributed to training. Many Sch dogs have lead a very sheltered training life of pattern and routine training. This is just a fact. For whatever reason. If dogs get to be 4 or 5 years old and have only worked on grass, or perfect weather, or perfect decoys, or Sch sleeves, or no distractions outside the routine, then even if these dogs have the genetics to do say PSA or KNPV or Police/patrol work, the lack of exposure over time will make it difficult for all but the exceptional dog. The training is Sch has become very exact. I like both for different reasons, and their are good dogs in both, the main difference is marginal or deficient dogs usually wash out of PSA, they can make it through Sch with training and time and routine.JMO
> 
> I tried to edit to add more and was timed out and couldn't figure out how to fix it.
> Just wanted to say that I think Sch obedience gives the best obedience foundation of all the protection sports, and by the time a dog has a Sch 1 level of obedience is really prepared to go to more advanced type work that entails more distractions, work that is not patterned or routine. Both are good as I said earlier, before the alter worshippers think I am knocking Sch. Just Different animals!.


I think this speaks volumes. IMHO, very well said!


----------



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I have noticed that no GSD has earned a PSA 2 title.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

That's interesting. What breeds have? I'm guessing Mals.


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> That's interesting. What breeds have? I'm guessing Mals.


FWIW, it appears that very few dogs of ANY breed can pass the PSA2 that attempt it...

Go check out the trial logs and the pass rates for PSA2 and PSA3

Results

Granted that is the PSA Nationals...


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Wow. Not much of anything to pass even the PSA2 much less the PSA3.

The sport is dominated by Mals based on those results.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Packen said:


> It's no way near as intense as Schutzhund, Schutzhund wash outs can easily work PSA we see it every day.


I think this is why a question like this is so difficult and subjective. Because I have had the exact opposite experience as Packen. From what I've seen, the PSA washouts go do Schutzhund. In fact that's what our club trainer/decoy told me, if my dog couldn't do PSA then I could do SchH. Fortunately for me, she can do PSA 




Jack's Dad said:


> Wow. Not much of anything to pass even the PSA2 much less the PSA3.
> 
> The sport is dominated by Mals based on those results.


Oh yes, it definately is. No one passed the 2s at nationals this year, the 3s were actually a little more successful. 
No GSD has ever gotten a PSA3, and I don't know for sure about a 2. Not that I've heard of anyway. 
Only one female dog has gotten a 3, and I think only one female handler has gotten a 3. 

I think the only other breed I've seen get a PSA3 (other than Mals and Dutchies) is a Dobermann, that was just this year. For some reason, I keep thinking there was a Pitt as well, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

BR870 said:


> Go check out the trial logs and the pass rates for PSA2 and PSA3
> 
> Results
> 
> Granted that is the PSA Nationals...


Actually I think those results are for all PSA trials of that year, not just nationals. At the top of each page you can see different locations and dates.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Klamari, my experiences are the same as yours, now let me weigh in on as to GS being able to pass a 2 or 3. If Melanie and Andy had continued in PSA they would have reached the 2 and 3. I was there when he (Andy Maly Vah) got his PSA1 and he was high dog in trial and the only one that passed the one that day. There are GS that can do PSA2 and PSA3, but its like anything else, it takes a very good dog, a commited handler, and a dog that has been trained to react, then act. That is simplifying things, but a lot is the need for the dog to be ready to implement its training no matter what is the conditions are the dog is asked to do it in. A good PSA dog is looking outward with control, as opposed to many dogs are looking backward for their control. Again, not all but the training philosphy is different in the two sports once you get past basics.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The more you talk about PSA, the more I wish I could be able to do it


----------



## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Klamari, my experiences are the same as yours, now let me weigh in on as to GS being able to pass a 2 or 3. If Melanie and Andy had continued in PSA they would have reached the 2 and 3. I was there when he (Andy Maly Vah) got his PSA1 and he was high dog in trial and the only one that passed the one that day. There are GS that can do PSA2 and PSA3, but its like anything else, it takes a very good dog, a commited handler, and a dog that has been trained to react, then act. That is simplifying things, but a lot is the need for the dog to be ready to implement its training no matter what is the conditions are the dog is asked to do it in. A good PSA dog is looking outward with control, as opposed to many dogs are looking backward for their control. Again, not all but the training philosphy is different in the two sports once you get past basics.


I agree with you Cliff. And it has been very interesting for me, still have a lot of learning to do, to see how training differs for the individual sports. We have dogs doing PSA, a couple doing SchH, and then a couple others doing French Ring. It's been very neat to see the strengths and weaknesses, the differences, between all three. And then to also see what certain traits in the dog make him a little more suited for one sport vs the other.


----------



## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

The goals, objectives, and training styles differ so much in the various sports mentioned (PSA/French Ring/Schutzhund) that it's impossible to make a true comparison. 

In the working dog crew I train with, we have FR, Sch, PSA, police dog, and personal protection dog enthusiasts all training to accomplish their individual goals. There are, of course threads of commonality with regard to specific goals which are present, but they are all truly "their own animal" and need to be trained with the individual sport or task in mind.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Tim!


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Packen said:


> The exercises are repeated till the dog "gets it" in PSA as far as I know.


That is, in fact, untrue.




> It's no way near as intense as Schutzhund, Schutzhund wash outs can easily work PSA we see it every day.


Do you have any specific examples of "schutzhund washouts" that have _successfully _competed in PSA? I'd be interested to hear about them.

I do Schutzhund with my dogs, however, I would consider myself a bit of a subject matter expert when it comes to PSA and have supported the sport for the last 6 years or so. I attend many trials every year, have been trial secretary and have even shown my dog in the sleeve division. Your statement was rather generalized and really not accurate in my experience. 

Albeit, I tell people who are new to the sport EVERY day, that the best possible foundation they could have for their dog to be successful in the sport is a Schutzhund foundation. PSA is all about attentive OB under heavy distraction, and nerve and grips in protection.


----------



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> PSA is (generally speaking) a better test of genetics, and Sch is a better test of training. Our SDA club sometimes trains with PSA groups and a few of our members train for PSA. They are different animals and both are good for training a dog. It is somewhat alarming how many GS attempt PSA and you quickly see they are not cut out for it,(not all but WAY too many), as opposed to Mals and Dutchies. But some of this is attrbutable to nerves and some of this is attributed to training. Many Sch dogs have lead a very sheltered training life of pattern and routine training. This is just a fact. For whatever reason. If dogs get to be 4 or 5 years old and have only worked on grass, or perfect weather, or perfect decoys, or Sch sleeves, or no distractions outside the routine, then even if these dogs have the genetics to do say PSA or KNPV or Police/patrol work, the lack of exposure over time will make it difficult for all but the exceptional dog. The training is Sch has become very exact. I like both for different reasons, and their are good dogs in both, the main difference is marginal or deficient dogs usually wash out of PSA, they can make it through Sch with training and time and routine.JMO


Very well said, Cliff! You should come out to trials more often..


----------

