# Deviated from Positive Training & Feeling Guilty...



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

So our rescue dog (shepherd mix) is such a GOOD dog. A slightly stern "eh eh eh" will correct anything he's thinking about doing, but I haven't had to say "eh eh eh" since the first month. (For example, he taught himself to down-stay before I serve his food, because he noticed that made me happy. )

When I first started walking him, it seemed like he had rarely been walked. He would pull like crazy towards bushes, smells, deer, whatever, and zigzag all over the sidewalk and road. We started obedience class and I learned to give him praise & a treat for looking at me and walking beside me. And, when he pulled hard, I would "make like a tree." This quickly fixed the hard, rude pulling.

However, our walks are now like this:
He walks ahead at the very end of his leash, the leash is straight between us, and it's just enough where I feel a bit of tension but it's not really a pull. Every once in a while, whenever he feels like it, he will come back and walk beside me for a few steps, to get his praise/treat fix. Then a few more steps, and he'll go back to walking at the very front of the leash again. Did I mention he is smart... he figured out exactly the threshold that is just below a Pull!

Today after 20 minutes of this, I got annoyed. We reached a wider section of the trail and when he was at the very end of the leash, I gave him a pop on the collar and turned and walked the other way. He was confused at first, but after 5 or 6 repetitions, he stopped forging ahead. For the rest of our walk, he was watching me out of the corner of his eye and he kept the leash hanging in a curve. (Did I mention he is smart...)

However I am pretty sure our obedience teacher (positive) would not approve of leash corrections!
Her approach is to train loose leash walking with treats, but the problem is, he doesn't care enough about food to keep close to you...he will bother with food ONLY if it's a boring part of the walk?

But, I am feeling guilty ...
He wasn't his usual perky self after the corrections - his ears were down a bit, and his head too. 
Usually he is walking with head up and ears pricked, he looks like a happy confident dog.

I wonder if there's some way to fix his "very end of the leash" walking habit without using "correction"...
But I also realized that the "correction" way seemed a lot more quick and effective than these weeks of endless tidbits of chicken...

So, feeling guilty and not sure if I should keep using the leash correction way?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I don't think the problem here is so much the leash corrections, but allowing a behavior to go on so long and now wanting a quick fix. IMHO that is not fair to the dog. 

Consistency is the key to training, no matter what school of thought you are using. You have not been consistent with him. He was not wrong in his confusion. You let him for the majority of the walk do X and then at the very end you made him do Z without really explaining to him exactly what Z is. 

What is the problem with his end of leash walking? Why do you want to correct it?

Personally, if he is not pulling I would leave it be. I would also teach a formal "heel" command for when you went him by your side. Personally I like to use treats to lure to train the position, then I build up the 3Ds with positive methods, and finally use corrections once I KNOW the dog 100% knows the commands, has generalized to many areas, and can perform under distraction. Corrections only to proof behavior has worked well for me and ends up with a good 95% of the entire training to be positive only.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm not a trainer or an expert, but I don't think you should feel guilty. A leash pop for pulling should be fine. Just praise or treat your dog afterward when he's walking correctly. I think my dogs should have fun with me when we're training; I use mostly positive techniques, but sometimes it's just not appropriate in my opinion, especially for powerful working breeds like GSDs. My opinion: don't worry about it. And find a new trainer (I'm mostly kidding about that last part.)


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> I don't think the problem here is so much the leash corrections, but allowing a behavior to go on so long and now wanting a quick fix. IMHO that is not fair to the dog.
> 
> Consistency is the key to training, no matter what school of thought you are using. You have not been consistent with him. He was not wrong in his confusion. You let him for the majority of the walk do X and then at the very end you made him do Z without really explaining to him exactly what Z is.
> 
> ...


So much of the benefit of a walk is allowing the dog to be a dog. I like for my dog to sniff around and have a lot to process and just be a dog. I think she gets better mental exercise and more fun out of that than being asked to heel for three straight miles. I do throw in some heeling, if only because we sometimes need to let somebody pass, but I don't make her do it the whole time.

I taught my dog "left side" and "right side" - those commands are code for, "I want you to walk on X side of me, I don't care what you're doing as long as you're not lagging behind or pulling ahead, stay in range of the leash on that side of me so I don't trip on you and have fun." Then when I want her to heel, I ask for that.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I find it mildly amusing when humans feel bad using the occasional leash pop and leash pressure. Our dogs do it to us without any guilt. They drag us around to make us go where they want (leash pressure) and lunge if they are very excited (leash pop). Rewards are very good for establishing new behavior and redirecting. To stop a behavior takes something the dog does NOT want, even if it is turning to go the opposite direction or not moving at all.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Well, what gets annoying over time is, with his "edge of the leash" walking, I will often find myself thinking, "Hmmm, this is getting kind of hard. Should I allow this? Should I stop now and do the tree thing?"
And the minute I start thinking, "Yes, this is true pulling now! I should stop..." he will slow down for a few steps and the leash goes slack...YES my dog is smarter than I am.

And sometimes I will realize that I am walking with my arm stuck straight out in front of me like a zombie ... but no, he's actually not Pulling...
I can consciously make myself drop my arm back to my side, and that's fine too, but then later I'll find my arm stuck out in front of me again...

I am fine with sniffing and dog-things and of course I want him to enjoy our walks. 
I would just like to be able to walk in a bit more relaxed way myself!

I am not really that interested in formal heeling but I casually trained it a bit in the house. "Follow Me" and I pat my leg, and I have a few treats, and he follows me everywhere in position - he has a smile on his face, his head is up, he is joyful. Right now that I try it on a walk, I'll say "Follow me" and he'll be busy sniffing and he'll be like, "Thanks, but don't want a treat right now. Busy right now. Maybe later." (He is a polite dog. I am a puzzled dog trainer!!)


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GSDchoice said:


> Well, what gets annoying over time is, with his "edge of the leash" walking, I will often find myself thinking, "Hmmm, this is getting kind of hard. Should I allow this? Should I stop now and do the tree thing?"
> And the minute I start thinking, "Yes, this is true pulling now! I should stop..." he will slow down for a few steps and the leash goes slack...YES my dog is smarter than I am.
> 
> And sometimes I will realize that I am walking with my arm stuck straight out in front of me like a zombie ... but no, he's actually not Pulling...
> ...


Have you considered a hands free leash? I have always found that more relaxing and comfortable for long walks. 

It's a fixed length where as you holding your leash is not (because your arm changes position making the leash longer at times and shorter than others). This goes back to that consistency thing. Sometimes the dog has a 6 foot leash, sometimes an 8 foot leash. What has he actually been TAUGHT in regards to how much "freedom" he gets on walks? For example - my dog was taught to put slack in the line as soon as there is any tension on it. Other dogs are taught a fixed radius of where they can go.



> I am not really that interested in formal heeling but I casually trained it a bit in the house. "Follow Me" and I pat my leg, and I have a few treats, and he follows me everywhere in position - he has a smile on his face, his head is up, he is joyful. Right now that I try it on a walk, I'll say "Follow me" and he'll be busy sniffing and he'll be like, "Thanks, but don't want a treat right now. Busy right now. Maybe later." (He is a polite dog. I am a puzzled dog trainer!!)


This is a classic case of asking too much too soon. It is VERY important to train dogs in an variety of environments and under many different distractions. They don't tend to generalize well. Your dog was in no way ready to follow your command under that level of distraction. He has to be taught "follow me" outside too. Starting somewhere quiet with low distractions (maybe the backyard) and working your way up to walk-level distraction. 

And BTW giving your dog a command in a situation where he isn't ready to follow it, especially if you do not immediately enforce it - is a good way to break commands and get a dog that only listens sometimes. 

Everytime you say "follow me" he gives you that "I don't want a treat right now" look - you are basically teaching him that your commands are OPTIONAL. 

Also... you may need to re-evaluate if food is motivational enough to be a true reward for your dog. I use food as a lure because it's NOT exciting for my dog. It's interesting enough that in a LOW distraction environment he will work for it, but not a going to make him go cray cray with excitement so he can actually THINK about what I am teaching him sort of thing. Out in the "real world" treats are meh. I worked to build drive for the tug/ball and I use PLAY as my main reward. My dog loves engaging with me for fun stuff waaaaaaay more than all the sniffs out there so he works hard to get it regardless of all the sniffs, places to pee and things to eat.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

But did you die?


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

GSDchoice said:


> However I am pretty sure our obedience teacher (positive) would not approve of leash corrections!
> Her approach is to train loose leash walking with treats, but the problem is, he doesn't care enough about food to keep close to you...he will bother with food ONLY if it's a boring part of the walk?
> 
> But, I am feeling guilty ...
> ...


Okay, first off. You did the correct thing. He wasn't obeying you, even though he knew the rules, and was testing his limits by "technically" not pulling--which is probably what you've inadvertently taught him. Your leash corrections merely made it clear that his slight pull is not loose leash walking. That's all you did, and given he's so receptive to you, it's unlikely you'll have to correct him too many more times (I'd predict a few when he sees a squirrel or dog or something really exciting that makes him forget the rules).

By the way, his ears being back and his head hanging a little low is submissive behavior showing he has recognized your leadership. He was also probably a little shocked and puzzled that he'd been corrected since you'd never done it before.

The only change I'd make is something that I think you'll actually like. Next time you have to correct him, do as you just did, but the second he's where he's supposed to be, give him his treat. That way, you're providing a stronger version of your "eh eh eh", and rewarding him for behaving just as you've always done. That will help make your corrections make more sense. He'll put two and two together very quickly. However, I would also start to phase out treats in favor of praise. I imagine that won't take very long since he's very attentive to you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDchoice said:


> So our rescue dog (shepherd mix) is such a GOOD dog. A slightly stern "eh eh eh" will correct anything he's thinking about doing, but I haven't had to say "eh eh eh" since the first month. (For example, he taught himself to down-stay before I serve his food, because he noticed that made me happy. )
> 
> When I first started walking him, it seemed like he had rarely been walked. He would pull like crazy towards bushes, smells, deer, whatever, and zigzag all over the sidewalk and road. We started obedience class and I learned to give him praise & a treat for looking at me and walking beside me. And, when he pulled hard, I would "make like a tree." This quickly fixed the hard, rude pulling.
> 
> ...


Your dog has a right to know that his actions have consequences.

And now he does.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The problem is not the correction but the attitude towards the correction. 

You see the correction as punishment, and your dog is feeding off of your response to correcting him. Because you see it as punishment, it IS punishment. And the dog is feeling punished. 

A correction is NOT punishment. It is communication. Let's say you are learning a new job. Your co-worker is training you to make an intricate widget involving many complicated steps. She has been instructed to tell you only when you do good, and do something right. But to say nothing about anything you do incorrectly. Do you think you would produce an excellent, correct widget in a timely fashion? A correction helps your dog know when he isn't doing something quite right. It is an opportunity to improve. 

Training is the process of learning a language between you and your dog. You learn to produce voice and body language that your dog can follow. Your dog learns the correct response to your voice and body language. Learning and teaching communication without any corrections, is like trying to make an intricate widget with one hand tied behind your back. 

When you see corrections as punitive, then you feel bad, and the dog feels bad, and it is a negative thing. Ok, if he is eating your steak off of your plate, while you're trying to eat it, maybe a little negative experience is warranted. But, there is no place for punishment in training, if training is learning to communicate. Instead it is correcting. Training by definition is correcting your dog so that he lives with ease in a human world. It gives you tools to use when you are in situations with your dogs. SIT is a tool. STAY and DOWN and HEEL are tools. When we correct, we give an Eh! or a leash correction, and as soon as the dog gets it in where he should be, gets into position, we praise, we say Good SIT, and we move on. We do not dwell on the correction, we dwell on the progress. We dwell on what the dog did right, after the correction. We give the negative tone, and the moment it works, we give the light happy tone that tells him that "YES, you did it right."

Training is different for everyone, but you have to stay within realistic expectations for your dog. It may not be realistic for your dog to heel for 2 miles during a hike at this stage. But every time another hiker is within a certain distance, you call him to HEEL. Or every time the trail forks, or you cross a road. My dogs do not have to heel for long distances, they just cannot pull me. It is up to them to keep the leash loose. Realistic Expectations are a must for good training. Because if your expectations are out of line for the dog, the dog will disappoint, and be disappointed by your disappointment, and it will make him anxious, but not better. It will impede his ability to trust you. Training is building the bond through learning to communicate AND by building a bond of trust that goes both ways.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> The problem is not the correction but the attitude towards the correction.
> 
> You see the correction as punishment, and your dog is feeding off of your response to correcting him. Because you see it as punishment, it IS punishment. And the dog is feeling punished.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice! Follow this and you and your dog will get where you want to be!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Point of information.

Punishment reduces future occurance of a target behavior. If it does not do this it is not technically punishment. It is entirely dependent on what it does to the target behavior.

How you view it is not relevant. It making a dog "sad" is not relevant. Punishment has a very specific definition and your intentions don't matter only the end results.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, great replies to think about!

Agreed - Yes - Training is a Communication issue!

Actually, he quickly learned everything I taught him:
1. If you pull, we stop walking ---> He doesn't pull.
2. If you walk beside me, you get a treat and praise ---> He comes back to get treats & praise when he wants it (i.e. boring parts of the walk).

So now, I just have to teach him more finely: 
3. Please don't walk at the very front of the taut leash

Because how would he ever know his walking at the very front end of taut leash, was bugging me? 
After all, I walked along behind him and went with it, for weeks.

So now thinking about...what motivates him?
He is not so food-motivated, doesn't have strong ball or play drive... but what he does have, is a very strong drive to not DISPLEASE. He tries so hard to "be good."
If he learns a boundary, he respects that boundary forever. ( For instance, we don't want our dog in the bed. He had two front paws on our bed and was eyeing it. I said sternly, "eh eh eh." To that date, he has NEVER tried to get on the bed. Ditto for eyeing food on the table - one "eh eh eh" in the first week, and he doesn't go near the table when we're eating.)
So I think, if I could just use onleash "eh eh eh", he will learn quickly!

Hmm, I think I will proceed with treats/praise (for good walking) and a version of onleash "eh eh eh" (say something like "slow down" + light tug on his martingale) for when he's being questionable.
This is a deviation from the Treats Only which we learned in class, but I think for him, it should work?
I do think yesterday's corrections were too strong for our dog/owner combo (soft-hearted owner + sensitive dog). He was walking so carefully, so cautiously afterwards, head down and ears a little back...I felt like I had hit my child. 

Yes - agreed that I was asking too soon for "Follow Me." (heel) 
I need to progress from house to yard to driveway - then, up and down the street, etc. Right now, it is like a "game" we play in the house and yard.

And good point about length of leash arm! I will focus on keeping my arm in my own "natural" comfortable position. I haven't thought yet about handsfree leash - will look into it. I always thought that was an Advanced thing, like, now my dog walks perfectly, so we go handsfree!)  

Thanks all!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

GSDchoice said:


> So now, I just have to teach him more finely:
> 3. Please don't walk at the very front of the taut leash


Umm. Stop asking...



Aly


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

While technically correct, I see this a bit differently @Ballif. If the dog is sad following a correction there's an obvious disconnect in the handler's communication with their dog. And this could very well come from the handler's perception of the correction - timing will be delayed and delivery is likely to be inconsistent. A person who feels guilty for using a correction won't be using said correction effectively.



> A correction is NOT punishment. It is communication.


I don't ever punish my dog or puppy, but I have no qualms correcting them. And my puppy is never sad afterward. I can't imagine communicating with any animal or human in an always positive way, and if forced to do so I would very likely communicate with them as little as possible, because it would just be too much work. Corrections are very much like steering, try driving a car without making any steering corrections...IMHO the result would be very much like training a dog that way!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

So he's getting to choose when he wants to come back and get a treat? Sounds like he has you trained well....


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

GSDchoice said:


> Hmm, I think I will proceed with treats/praise (for good walking) and a version of onleash "eh eh eh" (say something like "slow down" + light tug on his martingale) for when he's being questionable.
> 
> This is a deviation from the Treats Only which we learned in class, but I think for him, it should work?
> 
> I do think yesterday's corrections were too strong for our dog/owner combo (soft-hearted owner + sensitive dog). He was walking so carefully, so cautiously afterwards, head down and ears a little back...I felt like I had hit my child.


That sounds like a plan. 

Just remember "eh eh eh" means No, treats/praise means Yes. Red light. Green light. That sort of thing. I seriously would consider trying praise instead of treats, since he's so sensitive. It'll mean the world to him that he's pleased you so clearly and now you're petting him/sounding so happy. As you said, he doesn't want to displease you.

I say this simply because you're not going to be able to go around with bags of treats forever. Sometimes praise will just have to do.

And just one last itty-bitty thing. Remember this is a dog and not a child. In the dog world, there are exceptionally clear black and white rules when it comes to interacting with each other. If they get it right, all is well and all are in harmony. If they get it wrong, well they get growled at and told off in a somewhat alarming manner. Dogs, being less complicated than humans, understand Yes/No. They don't understand Maybe or guilt or 90% of other weird human emotions and thoughts. Black and white. Red light. Green light. Pleased and displeased. 

The key is making your No's, red lights, displeasure, "eh eh eh"s completely unemotional. The consequence happens, and that's all there is. That's why "eh eh eh" works for you, because you're not emotionally attached to it. You say it, he knows you're displeased, and you move on to the next thing without thinking about it. THAT is why that works.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What you most want to find will be found where you least want to look.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A "correction" is a catch all term for either positive punishment or negative reinforcement.

Positive punishment teaches a dog to avoid a target behavior
Negative reinforcement teaches a dog to escape pressure by performing a target behavior

Words have meaning for a reason. Be precise in your language. You can't just make up meaning for words that already exist because you feel like you can market your idea better.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yes, I feel like the human vending machine! 
I must have been missing something from the class...

Here is the moment when I realized that I'd have to do some outside-of-class figuring on my own:

My teacher would call the dogs to her sometimes for a demo in the center of the class.
She had hotdog, and every single dog went to her eagerly, did the demo (usually with magical results) and then she led them back to their owner.
I thought, wow, she is such a good trainer...

My dog's turn came.
She spoke invitingly, held out hot dog.
He sat stubbornly beside me and would not go!
She spoke again, waved hot dog closer.
He still refused to go.
In our 6 week class, he was the ONLY dog that never went to the middle with her for a demo-training.


So I had the sinking feeling that I would need something stronger than treats...
that he is not going to be as easy to motivate as the other dogs.
What motivates him? Not getting "eh eh eh"s!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Well, not getting "eh eh eh"s and getting "Good boy!".

Oh, and don't feel weird about your dog not running to the trainer for treats. It doesn't matter how much Jack likes a person, if they aren't part of the pack, he will not take food from them. He'll only take food from my husband and I.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GSDchoice said:


> My teacher would call the dogs to her sometimes for a demo in the center of the class.
> She had hotdog, and every single dog went to her eagerly, did the demo (usually with magical results) and then she led them back to their owner.
> I thought, wow, she is such a good trainer...
> 
> ...


This... is not a bad thing. Sounds like you have a loyal dog.

Your trainer isn't your dog's handler. She hasn't developed and forged a bond with your dog. Why SHOULD your dog show any interest in obeying her?

Quite frankly I would be disappointed if my dog trotted off with someone just because they had a hot dog.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Baillif said:


> A "correction" is a catch all term for either positive punishment or negative reinforcement.
> 
> Positive punishment teaches a dog to avoid a target behavior
> Negative reinforcement teaches a dog to escape pressure by performing a target behavior
> ...



Hmm, having been a Mom way longer than a dog-owner (!) I think in terms of "Discipline". 
Discipline is expecting good behavior, and being consistent about enforcing it. 
It's done out of love for your children.
I guess "enforcing discipline" could be called "punishment", but I do think of it like "steering" for the kids.

So I'm not afraid of "discipline" for my dog...(not a total softie)
just struggling with how to communicate how I want him to act on a walk! 
Since Words won't do the job in his case. 
Apparently neither does hotdog, chicken or cheese, ha ha.

I do think it has to be a combo of the good stuff (praise & treats) and a bit of bad stuff (letting him know when I'm displeased).
Before I was using 100% good stuff all the time - but I think that doesn't give a clear enough picture to him.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

GSDchoice said:


> Yes, I feel like the human vending machine!
> I must have been missing something from the class...
> 
> Here is the moment when I realized that I'd have to do some outside-of-class figuring on my own:
> ...


My daughter, at the ripe old age of about 10ish, took our Ridgie mix to a kid's dog show. Without our daughter using any formal training, our dog walked with her and sat with her beautifully. At the time we were using a choke chain. A trainer was there to do a demo and asked if he could use our dog. Sure! Did our dog behave for him? No, she got the Zoomies! We all had a good laugh and the trainer was a good sport. He also was quick enough to make sure my dog didn't get "choked" by her collar. What he asked was for her to come to him...and she did and zoomed right past him. And then back again and again. 

by the way, my dog also won best trick of the show.:grin2:


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Ha ha, great story about how dogs know their handlers! 
I know my dog acts so different even with my husband walking him! 

Before I "log off" here I just want to say - I do support Positive Training.
I think the marker/praise and the lure works well with psychology of animals and dogs in general. 
I think that if you are a GOOD positive trainer, who knows the right timing, has an idea of what your dog is thinking, knows where dog is looking, etc, you will not need negative reinforcement at all.
( Like, I think my teacher could have gotten him walking on a nice loose leash in a handful of sessions. once he accepted her hotdog 

Unfortunately for a beginning dog owner like me, it's harder to apply then just saying "no no no" when your dog does something you don't want...
Failure of the trainer, not the training theory!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

GSDchoice there will come a time when something your dog is doing is way more interesting/exciting than anything you can offer.Cookies and praise cannot compete with the rush of chasing and treeing a squirrel.For teaching a behavior treats and praise are great motivators.But for many self rewarding and dangerous behaviors an adversive has to occur in order to extinguish it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Bailiff, I disagree. How we view a response to our dog, will be in our body language and will keep the negative feeling in play much longer than it should be. Dogs are incredibly in tune with us. If we are feeling devastated that we broke our positive-only method, it will make the overall effect of the punishment worse. 

A correction is a quick communication, and quickly over. A dog that doesn't want to do the wrong thing, will learn quickly not to do that, even from a quick correction, and praise for the right response. 

I am not a big fan of treat training. I am sure that it brings good results when done properly, but too many people abuse them. A dog should not require a treat to walk along with us, or to sit or to learn something knew. I use treats in puppy class to in essence "load the clicker." Only I don't use a clicker. I use my voice. Our voice is an extraordinary instrument. It can be used for praise, for correction, for everything in between. It can fine-tune performance by providing a reward or a correction that matches the performance. It is free, you do not need to add a carpenter's apron to take it on a walk with you. It works on other dogs too. GO HOME!!!! -- So far, 49 years and counting, I have not had to carry sticks or stones or guns to protect my dogs. 

I saw dogs last weekend that were reliant on treats. And others that were schooled too much and rewarded with toys. At the end of the day, Rally and Obedience, at least the CD and perhaps the CDX are just a demonstration of how a good dog ought to be able to act when out and about with his owner. Snappy heeling with crisp sits and commands and unwavering attention, doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. But, I guess, whatever floats your boat. 

And the end of the day, to have a rapport with your dog, that makes for a well-behaved critter, one does not need to stuff them full of treats or toys. And the more dogs I have trained, the fewer corrections I need to use.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Selzer, nowhere in my post did I address how to "correct." There is that word again. I took issue with your definitions and use of specific words. I took issue with your frame of reference as well which is not well defined nor does it match that of accepted psychological and behavioral science.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Selzer, nowhere in my post did I address how to "correct." There is that word again. I took issue with your definitions and use of specific words. I took issue with your frame of reference as well which is not well defined nor does it match that of accepted psychological and behavioral science.


I am not a psychologist, and never claimed to be. Nor an animal behaviorist. I have nice dogs and have trained dozens of them from puppy on up. I personally believe most of the dogs are ordinary dogs and people have trouble with managing and training ordinary dogs. 

I had a problem with your saying that your feelings about a correction makes no difference. I disagree heartily. If you correct a dog, inwardly cringing and feeling all bad about it, it will make an ordinary correction unnecessarily charged. 

Of course I speak of punishment in the sense that we punish children or pets to correct behavior and prevent the behavior from re-occuring. It is more than a tweak in training. It is usually done after the fact in direct response to something you did not like. i.e. The dog got in the trash and spewed it around the house. Punishment might be duct taping rotting meat to its muzzle (yes, someone told me they did this, and she said it worked). My way of looking at it is that I left a young dog in a position it was not ready for. Clean up the mess and manage the situation better. I know that there are less sever methods of punishing a dog, and one can make a case that they work and are not abusive. Another can achieve the same results by supervising and correcting a dog before it crosses the line Occasionally I correct dogs, but I have no reason to punish them. 

Punishment shares a root with the word punitive. Punitive damanges. They are to punish a defendent, usually monetarily. It is basically done to hurt someone to prevent a reoccurance. A correction is simply letting the dog know that wasn't quite right and to fix it. It is kind of like the difference between having a kid look up a word in the dictionary and fix it, compared to making the kid write the word 500 times, on the black board, in front of the class.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Do some reading. Figure out where I'm coming from from that reading from your newly educated frame of reference and if you're still confused we can talk about how and why.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steering behavior, no matter what you call it, is what we're trying to do! So Ballif, when youre technically correct, do you find yourself frequently having to explain the terms you're using? I think, IME that people don't understand the terms "operant conditioning " or "classical conditioning "

So, if you have to constantly explain, why not adopt a more understandable explanation? Corrections is indeed a sort of general term used to describe mostly positive punishment. But it is much more readily accepted by "the masses" so it's a better term to "communicate" with, no?

I'm also an engineer by trade, but I find it ironic that you quote B. F. Skinner, who was a maverick in his own time time introducing new terms and new controversial thoughts and terminology to a VERY established "school of thought" that differed considerably from his observations. 

In the end communication is what matters, not historical accuracy.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Operant conditioning and classical conditioning are nothing new or cavalier. If people would take the time to read up on them it may actually help them more effectively “communicate” with their dogs. In my experience, a little education goes a long way, and I for one appreciate when people don’t water down training language just to appeal to the masses. It gives those less experienced a chance to really expand their knowledge base if they are willing to do a little reading.

OP, I think you have been given some good advice on this thread. Mine would be to find a different trainer who has more tools in their bag, so to speak. And one that can explain WHY they suggest the methods they do. There is nothing wrong with wanting to maintain an overall positive approach to training your dog. But of course, you have to be able to effectively tell your dog what you want in order to be successful with that. If you are changing the established rules and want to do that without corrections, you have to be more patient and go back to square one for a bit. Corrections are nothing to feel guilty about, but you do have to understand how and when to correct your dog for them to be most effective, just as you have to understand how and when to reward your dog. A correction given out of frustration when your dog is following the guidelines you established for acceptable behavior isn’t likely to give you the end results you are looking for.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Perhaps the real issue is the feeling of guilt and failure at loosing his/her temper. If I ever get frustrated and annoyed, I stop talking and stop training and just take the dog home. It does no one any good when dealing with things while in high emotions.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Steering behavior, no matter what you call it, is what we're trying to do! So Ballif, when youre technically correct, do you find yourself frequently having to explain the terms you're using? I think, IME that people don't understand the terms "operant conditioning " or "classical conditioning "
> 
> So, if you have to constantly explain, why not adopt a more understandable explanation? Corrections is indeed a sort of general term used to describe mostly positive punishment. But it is much more readily accepted by "the masses" so it's a better term to "communicate" with, no?
> 
> ...


When I deal with clients I get paid. When I'm being paid I have no problem explaining the terms to build a framework for them and then going over the practical application of the science. For a 4-6 week program dog I'll do that over the course of 5 days with a client. 

Other than this forum I don't really talk dogs much. Sometimes I talk dogs with other trainers who are close friends but even that is fairly rare. Even indulging in the forum is fairly rare these days.

When a person drops 2.5-4K for your services they tend to be more receptive to what you have to say about a subject. When they see changes that can be made to a dogs behavior in the form of an end result that receptiveness increases. So does my willingness to teach.

When you're trying to communicate abstract ideas to people the uniformity in the meaning of the words used is important to properly conveying an idea. The reason scientists often struggle to define, categorize, catalog and name is so they can accurately and precisely communicate ideas. Even something like the order of operations in math has to be so that there is a universal standard for mathematical language.

As someone already stated it is information that is out there and it is not new. Ignore it at your peril.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vocabulary and definitions are important. I teach a course called Medical Terminology. One of the textbooks is a medical dictionary. It is over 2,000 pages long. Now, granted, medical professionals are dealing with the myriad of afflictions that can affect the human body and with life and death issues. They must agree on at least the vocabulary, if not necessarily treatment options and diagnosis. 

But.... I've seen plenty of dog training issues where it may indeed boil down to life and death, at least for the dog. It behooves all dog owners who are interested in dog behavior and training to do just a wee bit of reading and at minimum come to an understanding of dog training terminology. A dictionary on dog training terminology wouldn't be close to 2,000 page long, but it would sure help to agree on common language to describe concepts. 

It's not difficult to have a working understanding of dog training vocabulary. And its so much easier to debate dog training philosophies or techniques when we at least agree on the terminology. 

If not, one could get bogged down in silly stuff, like the difference between a correction and a punishment- in dog training. Even debates between so-called purely positive and so-called balanced training get muddled down into meaninglessness unless we can agree on some basic vocab definitions. 

Makes me want to write a book called "Mastering Dog Training Terminology".


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

GSDchoice said:


> I do think it has to be a combo of the good stuff (praise & treats) and a bit of bad stuff (letting him know when I'm displeased).
> Before I was using 100% good stuff all the time - but I think that doesn't give a clear enough picture to him.


OP, you might consider how you've framed things --- to yourself and to your dog. Rather than framing it as "good stuff" or "bad stuff," try framing it as "Yes, that's what I want/Right answer" or "Nope, not what I want/Wrong answer." It's clearer (for you and him) and not as affectively loaded as the words good and bad often are. Of course, this approach requires that you're clear in your own mind about what it is that you want and don't want. Sometimes people aren't clear headed about things (e.g., dog can jump on me when I'm in gardening clothes, but not when I'm in a power suit), which then leads to inconsistency (e.g., now you can jump on me, now you can't) which, in turn, is confusing for the dog (e.g., what's the rule?!?) --- with predictable, if frustrating, results for both of you (e.g., you now have a dirty power suit and the dog's been punished for what it could do yesterday). 

Whether, how and when you employ operant vs. classical conditioning techniques in the process is secondary, IMO, to the importance of clarity, in your own mind, about what you do/don't want in your dog's behavior. 

That said, I do agree with Bailiff and Muskeg about the importance of using the correct terminology when talking about training, shaping, bmod, etc. 

Otherwise, we risk babble...

Aly


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@GSDchoice

I'm sure I missed this but I just don't have the patience to read thru the entire thread but....

1. Have you ever taught your dog the proper position? You are feeding him treats for what? For being in the position you want him to be in? Or just randomly when he's walking?

2. After you corrected him, what did you do? Did he understand what the correction was for? Did you help him back into the position you wanted and reward him for being in position to really drive home where the reward line is?
-- Dog pulls, correction happens, help dog back into position by luring, reward in position. You should work up to more and more steps between the luring and the reward. Eventually, you should start seeing the dog correct himself and put himself back into position.
The dog being "down" after a correction is normal. The praise and reward for being correct will bring him back up.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

car2ner said:


> Perhaps the real issue is the feeling of guilt and failure at loosing his/her temper. *If I ever get frustrated and annoyed, I stop talking and stop training and just take the dog home. It does no one any good when dealing with things while in high emotions*.


I will end the session as well, but I try to end it on a high note before doing so. Performing a few reps of something more familiar to them is enough.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Nigel said:


> I will end the session as well, but I try to end it on a high note before doing so. Performing a few reps of something more familiar to them is enough.


I used to think that was important but now I want the lesson to get a chance to sink in. I don't want to stay annoyed or angry very long myself but I'd rather "put the dog away" and allow a cooling off time. Later, 15 - 30 minutes later when we've all had room to breath is when I'd go ahead and do something simple with my dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Once you go far enough into your maths your sciences and your engineering's you realize you're looking at theories there too. There are very few laws and those are probably just waiting to be disproven too. Everything becomes an answer plus or minus an error margin to a certain decimal point. Social science theories are to be viewed as tools. Stay away from ideologies because those are not ideas you have, they are ideas that have you. Theories are Useful for where they seem to work and discarded in favor of a different tool in the places where they don't. Reality is complicated. Absolute understanding of reality is impossible for us. We are just too limited. There is no golden tool that is useful for everything all the time, but there are some that seem to work pretty damned good.

The behaviorists were just one branch of psychology. They didn't have all the answers because they were looking at things from a frame of reference that was focused primarily on the lower order older machinery within humans and animals. In the case of animals it did a pretty good job describing most of how they learned and operated, but I remain convinced there is some rudimentary higher order reasoning occurring in animals, dogs in particular.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

GSDchoice said:


> So our rescue dog (shepherd mix) is such a GOOD dog. A slightly stern "eh eh eh" will correct anything he's thinking about doing, but I haven't had to say "eh eh eh" since the first month. (For example, he taught himself to down-stay before I serve his food, because he noticed that made me happy. )
> 
> When I first started walking him, it seemed like he had rarely been walked. He would pull like crazy towards bushes, smells, deer, whatever, and zigzag all over the sidewalk and road. We started obedience class and I learned to give him praise & a treat for looking at me and walking beside me. And, when he pulled hard, I would "make like a tree." This quickly fixed the hard, rude pulling.
> 
> ...


I do so understand! My Aussie did the same thing and I went through the same correction/guilt cycle. The walks were getting stressfull so I relented and got a bungee leash. I got one that only had the bungee part at the end of the leash. There are also bungee leash extensions to use with your existing leash. The bungee part absorbs that constant just under pulling tension that is so tiring to one's arms. 
Just wanted to say also that your thread is very interesting and has given much food for thought.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yes what an interesting thread. 
Many comments here have been helpful...some people are professional dog trainers!?

Well, I did take psych in college and I loved the class. 
The part on positive negative conditioning for animals (in that case, rats) was interesting and to me, makes sense. 
I can see it working in humans as well...(i.e. most of us avoid situations that give us pain and negative feelings...

On a practical note: 
After digesting this thread and the thought that training = communication, and that "corrections" can be more like saying "nope, this is not right" (not bad, not punishment),
we worked hard on our leash walking at the beginning of each walk over the weekend. (total 4 or 5)
For this annoying habit, he is mostly cured!


What I did:
We began walking. 
He forged ahead to his usual position (front of leash...leash goes straight)
I give him a light tug on his martingale collar, kind of a "Pay Attention." Then I head off in another direction - not 180, but like a 90 degree. 
He comes along.
When he catches up beside my leg, he gets praise and a treat.
Eventually he passes me again, the leash goes straight...
Repeat from beginning...

We walked in small squares for a while. People looked at us...
Then, the squares got bigger...and bigger...
Suddenly the 'lightbulb' went on and we went on a regular 30.min walk - with leash hanging!!

This morning, leash still hanging. Every once in a while he "forgets", but the light tug is enough to remind him to put the slack back in the leash.

Also, I remind myself to keep my arm in consistent position - in the beginning, I had to imagine that my elbow was glued to my side. 
But with a looser leash, now it's easy to keep my arm down.

Also I learned that he is very responsive to my tone of voice. 
When I say "YES!" in an energetic way, he takes the treat fast and enthusiastically, almost with a snap.
When I say "yes..." in a soft way, he takes the treat gently and slowly, using just his tongue.
This must be the sign of a working dog!?
Also it did put the idea in my head that maybe Voice Control will be enough for him...someday...

So anyway I think there is a training style that works for every human/dog pair but it will be different depending on the personality of the dog.

When I was doing sharper corrections that day (letting him go out to end of the leash and doing a 180 turn) he lost his confidence. 
He was walking very close to me with head down, and he was afraid to sniff. He thought he had done something wrong, he felt like a "bad dog", but he didn't know what. 
So that was bad of me, and also bad of me to do it in an annoyed mood. 

( For example, if it was the Great Dane I had as a kid..(we got her as a puppy) she was so jolly that even with a big yank on the leash, she would gallop over and lick you. She thought it was a new way to play. If you waved your arm above her, she would leap up to check if you have a ball. With this dog, if you wave your arm above him, he flinches and ducks...so training her, and training him, is very different, because they react differently.)


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

GSDchoice said:


> What I did:
> We began walking.
> He forged ahead to his usual position (front of leash...leash goes straight)
> I give him a light tug on his martingale collar, kind of a "Pay Attention." Then I head off in another direction - not 180, but like a 90 degree.
> ...


You just applied "Balanced training".
I think you're on track.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

GSDchoice said:


> Yes what an interesting thread.
> Many comments here have been helpful...some people are professional dog trainers!?
> 
> Well, I did take psych in college and I loved the class.
> ...


Congratulations! That's very educational how you were able to draw from all these posts the essentials and to apply them to your dog and adjust them to his temperament, find the solution, and look honestly at yourself as to how to improve. Great advice!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

@GSDchoice thank you for coming back and describing what you've been able to accomplish. Far too many times folks post about challenges that they're facing, in response to which forum members suggest intelligent, creative solutions, after which the OP simply disappears...and we never know what happened. So, thank you for the feedback!

Which brings me to my next point: Outstanding job! I agree with Marybeth, it's really impressive how you gleaned useful ideas from the discussion (potential derailments notwithstanding), thought about and then applied them in a way that was effective for both of you. Kudos! :happyboogie: 

Finally, a word of caution, followed by a suggestion. First, don't be surprised if, say, next week he (?) surges ahead to the end of the leash. Just rinse and repeat. Sometimes training is a two or three steps forward, one step back kind of phenomenon. Some dogs need just a few repetitions whereas others need a LOT. That may be the case here when what you've essentially done is to change the parameters of leash walking. Just keep focused on your own clarity and the need for repetitions should extinguish. 

Second, don't be so hard on yourself. Losing your composure wasn't "bad" and you didn't make him feel "sad.' You're both learning and, as you say, you're learning how to be a good handler for _this _dog. Most importantly, you clearly learned something from it and that knowledge is invaluable in its own right. Ideally, you want to get to the point where you can calmly (in situ) consider what just happened and say, "Okay, that didn't work. Let me think of another way to communicate what I want."

And, because it bears repeating: :happyboogie:

Aly


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

OK folks, this sounds like a discussion you two can enjoy with PMs. It is off track of the intent of the post.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

GSDchoice your solution was so simple yet brilliant. Thank you for this. My boy walks nicely but also starts out with loose leash then will walk to the end (as yours does). And like yours, it's not a matter or pulling or disobeying and he will get back into a heel but all I really want is 0 tension so it is a matter of making him understand that it is the looseness that I want and not the heel.

I always attributed it to the fact that his natural stride was longer than mine but that shouldn't matter if he has 6 feet of length to work with.

I walk him on a prong but with this issue, a prong correction would not be the answer nor appropriate so HUGE kudos for figuring out the solution and posting it because I (for one) am going to use your "walk in a square" idea to see if it helps.

I have seen his lightbulb go on when he makes connections and those moments are so amazing. Keep doing what you do and thinking for your dog. The trust and bond will only deepen.

Thanks again!


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I have an Aussie female. She weighs 58 pounds. I like my dogs to be in top physical condition even in our winters. I gave up on the traditional heeling methods a long time ago. Pulling on the leash is great exercise for the dog and probably for you too while resisting. I teach a “sniff” command where the dog is free to sniff and pull on the leash for as long and hard as she wants. I do walk at my pace so the dog can really pull hard. With this I teach a “heel”command too. So while we are walking and the dog is pulling and sniffing I call” fuss” from my SCH days. This means come to heel position whether I’m walking or standing. It only took a few times showing her what I wanted and walks are easy now. I use reward treats and praise. The sniff is also for her to find a spot....a poop spot. Since I use a loop tab on the prong it’s easy to release and gather as I call it. After she poops I have her finish her “landscaping” then pick up the poop. Then I say “ lests go throw it away”. This means she either gets to sniff her way to the trash can or heel if I Command. Over all going for a walk is a very happy and fun thing for her. I even add a conversational command, “ hey, how about taking me for a walk”. This results in mad chasing around the apt until I get the harness ready. Then she comes running and noses into it. We do go through the doorways and up and down steps in a very formal and orderly fashion no matter how excited she is. My GSDs operated at a slower pace than my Aussie but the control and release worked the same.

As you can see walks and potty walks are more than just casual fun. There is no time for smoking or yaking on the phone. While walking I’m constantly on the look out for problems ....loose dogs, squirrels, rabbits and idiots.

I do use a prong but never more than a two finger twitch. Often just shake the chain. Most corrections are just “no,no”. I even use a soft voice so she has to listen. I’m almost at the point of reversing the prong so the points are out. We got attacked again by a loose dog but no damage to Samantha.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I deleted a bunch of posts that were off topic and distracted from the subject at hand.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Maybe your dog just needs a different attitude on your behalf to figure it out easier.......


SuperG


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Aly said:


> @GSDchoice thank you for coming back and describing what you've been able to accomplish. Far too many times folks post about challenges that they're facing, in response to which forum members suggest intelligent, creative solutions, after which the OP simply disappears...and we never know what happened. So, thank you for the feedback!
> 
> Which brings me to my next point: Outstanding job! I agree with Marybeth, it's really impressive how you gleaned useful ideas from the discussion (potential derailments notwithstanding), thought about and then applied them in a way that was effective for both of you. Kudos! :happyboogie:
> 
> ...


Yes, one the reasons I posted back is because when I was lurking, I often wondered, what happened to the OP?! 
Did they ever get their dog to stop growling at that person? Or did crating turn out to be the only way?
Did chicken and rice stop their dog's diarrhea? If so, I'll try it...
It's hard to learn from the thread if you never get to find out what worked (or didn't)!

Yes, I felt proud when he learned it, and I knew he would relapse. i.e. yesterday (sunny & warm here!) we went to the woods nearby and I took a new trail that I had never tried. The "new trail" excitement had him back to his old taut, front-of-leash habit, and I had to spend a few reminding minutes. Stepping back and not getting all emotional about it - that's an important reminder. :smile2:


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