# Where to find breeders of GSDs that can work as sheep herders/livestock protectors?



## Wulf (Aug 12, 2016)

We plan on one day owning a farm and having sheep and other farm animals. I understand the difference between show and working lines, but have never researched if there are various "branches" of working lines geared towards one line of work or another. Please contact me if you know of any GSD breeders who are reputable and breed dogs who still have the ability to herd. I just went to a National Point Qualifying Sheepdog Trial in Idaho and 100% of the dogs were border collies. I believe it was an event for that breed only though. I understand that they seem to be the best at this, but it was talked about as if they are the only breed able to do this type of work. 

I thought it odd to see border collies herding sheep at the local festival while Great Pyrenees guard them, whereas the GSD should/could be able to do both at the same time, cutting back on the costs and amounts of dogs it takes to run a farm.

Since my family and I have agreed to always own at least 1 GSD, it makes sense to start researching this now for our future farm life. I'm not sure if any working line GSD can be taught to herd sheep, or if there are specific qualities/traits I need to be looking for.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/232199610279311/

HGH-Herding-in-America
https://www.facebook.com/groups/323459651003706/


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Don't know this breeder personally but he a highly respected sheepherding instructor and breeds gsd's with strong herding instincts which I feel many gsd still have. 
http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-kennel.htm
I'm training my dog on sheep. We are work in progress. The sheep herding instructor says pretty much all the gsd's she has seen are interested in the sheep and do well. I have seen border collies and Australian sheepdog not interested in sheep.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

So you're looking for a GSD that will herd the sheep and also live with them 24/7 and guard them?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi Wulf,

The links Jax provided above are good ones - in the "Herding German Shepherds" group on Facebook you'll see dogs with different pedigrees doing different things. If you live near New York state, you may be able to get involved with the only (I think?) active HGH opportunity in this country.

To be brutally honest, there aren't very many German Shepherds actively involved working sheep. A few here, a few there. Trust me, I'm always looking... I've been involved for about six years, and have only met a handful. Hundreds of GSD owners get an instinct test and never go any further.

If you're thinking about it for the future, I strongly recommend attending as many all-breed trials as you can. USBCHA are almost exclusively border collies, it's a shock to see any other breed entered - though there have been a few, I've been told. Personally I've never seen one, and I go to at least one or two USBCHA trials each year as a spectator. There's AHBA, AKC, and ASCA (gives preference to Aussies but other herding breeds are welcome).

The foundation/raising of puppies is very much the same, regardless of breed, and you'll be able to pick up tips and opinions on how to raise your dog to set yourself up for success. It's a steep learning curve, and you also need to learn about different kinds of sheep (there are MANY variables), different kinds of fencing, and what a livestock guardian is or is not. Most people I know use alpacas or donkeys, a few use guardian dog breeds, I don't know of anyone who has ever used their GSD to guard sheep 24/7. Immerse yourself.... you can spend an absolute lifetime learning about stockdogs, and still have more to learn. It's very humbling.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You need to look into a guardian breed like a Great Pyrenees or a Kuvasz. The prey drive in a GSD is high, which means they don't usually make good guardian dogs. In Germany, yes, you will find some, but they aren't left alone with the sheep, the shepherds are also with them 24/7. Many GSDs are rough on sheep when herding so you definitely will need to look for someone like the links you were given to look for the right GSD puppy. When I was herding we didn't have any GSDs that were good on sheep. Not saying they didn't want to herd, but they were too rough with them, biting too hard, drawing blood. When you have lambs you need the right dog around them. When you're tailing them (Taking off tails) you do it without dogs. That can be fun! You get to play the dog's part yourself. When they're lambing there can be all sorts of complications and a lot of lost sleep. And they lamb in the cold weather. I've spent mornings in a barn holding up a sheep, (they're heavy!) while my friend was putting a uterus back inside the ewe. If you've never had stock before, look into it. There's a lot involved besides the dogs.


Besides all that, I can't see a GSD happy to be living with the sheep and not with you. Guardian dogs are put out as puppies with the sheep so they bond with the sheep, not with the humans. The sheep are their family, their flock, the people come second.


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## Wulf (Aug 12, 2016)

Deb said:


> So you're looking for a GSD that will herd the sheep and also live with them 24/7 and guard them?


We would be starting small and would learn as we go. We'd probably only start with a few sheep and then build up to what we can manage over time. Not sure if we'd ever grow big enough to release sheep on public lands 24/7 or if they would always stay on our property. So for now, we'd want a well-trained dog/s who live with us but can stay on our property to protect the other animals and herd them when required.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Deb said:


> You need to look into a guardian breed like a Great Pyrenees or a Kuvasz. The prey drive in a GSD is high, which means they don't usually make good guardian dogs. In Germany, yes, you will find some, but they aren't left alone with the sheep, the shepherds are also with them 24/7. Many GSDs are rough on sheep when herding so you definitely will need to look for someone like the links you were given to look for the right GSD puppy. When I was herding we didn't have any GSDs that were good on sheep. Not saying they didn't want to herd, but they were too rough with them, biting too hard, drawing blood. When you have lambs you need the right dog around them. When you're tailing them (Taking off tails) you do it without dogs. That can be fun! You get to play the dog's part yourself. When they're lambing there can be all sorts of complications and a lot of lost sleep. And they lamb in the cold weather. I've spent mornings in a barn holding up a sheep, (they're heavy!) while my friend was putting a uterus back inside the ewe. *If you've never had stock before, look into it. There's a lot involved besides the dogs*.
> 
> 
> Besides all that, I can't see a GSD happy to be living with the sheep and not with you. Guardian dogs are put out as puppies with the sheep so they bond with the sheep, not with the humans. The sheep are their family, their flock, the people come second.


Isn't that the truth. Our animals have always had a knack for giving birth in the middle of the night....

Some other ideas:

See if your state extension service offers a "Sheep 101" class, many do. Also find out when and where the closest Sheep & Wool / Fiber festivals are located. Those usually offer good introductory classes about nutrition, hoof trimming, etc. Ours is held in conjunction with one of the annual BC trials, and it's one of the best opportunities to meet other people with similar interests.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Former farm girl here. 

You are putting the cart before the horse. Don't get your heart set on a working stock dog until your farm plans are more concrete than "future farm". 

How many acres? What kind of stock? How many head? Where is this farm going to be located? What are the natural predators in that area? 

Are we talking about a small hobby farm designed to put meat in your own freezer? Or a large commercial operation here? Free grazing on open acres or rotating smaller paddocks? 

The dog I would have if I was running 500 head of sheep on 200 acres is very different then the dog I would have if I was raising 100 head of beef cattle on that same land. Which is a totally different dog then I would have if I had 15 head of dairy goats and some chickens on 25 acres. 

Don't get me wrong... I love GSDs. But there is a reason you don't see them on large scale working farms with any regularity. The type of herding they were bred for is practically extinct in modern agriculture. No one is out there for 12 hours a day standing over a small / medium sized herd grazing them on public lands. There is very very little need for tending dogs these days. You will get the odd gsd that can adapt to other herding styles - but they are never going to be as good as the breeds that evolved to use that style in the first place. You'll run into problems like someone posted up the thread gsds being to rough on the stock (because it is a lot harder to keep hungry sheep out of the neighbors vegetable garden then to get the flock moving on open pasture). 

What are your expectations of the gsd guarding your flock? I'd put my money on a gsd abandoning his charges in the middle of the night to seek out his human ^_^


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Had been working and preventing my own gsd from being rough on the sheep its natural for them to use their mouth. working on that he has calmed down much. Doing really good. 
HGH sheep herding trial coming up soon -this week I think? in NY -white clover farm - I would love to go watch this.

Smaller property sheep in paddock dog in the house alerting for intruder on property furry or not. Can work.


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## Wulf (Aug 12, 2016)

I replied to you guys, but I don't see my reply. The original post had to be approved by a moderator. Maybe that's what I'm waiting on? I'll post this to use as a test, then try to retype what I wrote the first time. Weird.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

The hobby farm we got our female gsds from was using the dam as live stock guardian as well as some herding duties. She was an ASL to boot. The owners were very happy with her work, definitely not the norm I'd suspect.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Historically a gentlemen named Karl Fuller bred and trained GSD's for herding. His kennel was known as Kirschental and located in Germany. He was very well known and had a breeding program that went back 50+ years. Herr Fuller passed away several years ago. Moreover, in recent years Kirschental concentrated more on WGSL dogs, although some dogs continued to be titled in herding. 

I believe the Kirschental kennel is no more. However, a number of American breeders, located mostly in the Northeast do own and continue to breed Kirschental dogs. My male GSD comes from one of those kennels - Olympia, located in New Hampshire. I have never tried to do any herding with my guy and have no way of evaluating whether he would make a good herding dog - although he does try to herd our Corgi mix.
He does have an extremely good temperament, gets along well with people and other dogs and is probably the most loving GSD I've owned.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You said you and your family have decided you always want to own a GSD. Are you talking a pet? Because if you find the right GSD that will actually work a guardian dog and personally I think that will be hard, it won't be a pet. It would be a working dog in the absolute truest form, bonded to the sheep and part of that flock. Personally I still stand by getting a guardian breed to keep with the sheep like the GP or the Kuvasz and use the shepherd for herding. You may even find it still hard to find a shepherd that will herd. It's hard to know if a puppy still has the herding instinct. Some will turn on at about 3 or 4 months, some don't turn on until later. The majority can't pass the test, so make sure you find parents that do herd. I would consider a young dog that has already passed their HIC. That way you'll up your chances of having a shepherd that will do what you want it to do.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Wulf said:


> We would be starting small and would learn as we go. We'd probably only start with a few sheep and then build up to what we can manage over time. Not sure if we'd ever grow big enough to release sheep on public lands 24/7 or if they would always stay on our property. So for now, we'd want a well-trained dog/s who live with us but can stay on our property to protect the other animals and herd them when required.


Just saw this, guess it finally came through for you. *S*


You need to look at the predators in the area where you want to have your small farm. Even with three sheep, if there are predators, they'll find them if they're outside. If you want a GSD that will stay with you, I'm assuming you mean in the house at night with you? You'll need to put the sheep up at night if you only have a few and don't plan on a dog out there with them. As you grow your flock you'll want to look into a guardian dog that will stay out with them.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Deb said:


> You said you and your family have decided you always want to own a GSD. Are you talking a pet? Because if you find the right GSD that will actually work a guardian dog and personally I think that will be hard, it won't be a pet. It would be a working dog in the absolute truest form, bonded to the sheep and part of that flock. Personally I still stand by getting a guardian breed to keep with the sheep like the GP or the Kuvasz and use the shepherd for herding. You may even find it still hard to find a shepherd that will herd. It's hard to know if a puppy still has the herding instinct. Some will turn on at about 3 or 4 months, some don't turn on until later. The majority can't pass the test, so *make sure you find parents that do herd.* I would consider a young dog that has already passed their HIC. That way you'll up your chances of having a shepherd that will do what you want it to do.


Finding modern GSD litters where both sire & dam have herding titles (not just instinct tests) is a pretty tall order, there aren't a ton of people out there with this breed doing this type of work. The gentleman who runs the active HGH group bred one of his HGH females to a SchH3 male earlier this year, he wrote a detailed post on Facebook regarding the fact that the HGH gene pool is very small, therefore he looks within other titling venues to find what he wants for his future generations. Interesting info to read up on, if you're curious.

I agree 100% with Deb that you need to determine what sort of predators you're up against before you know what sort of protection they need. In some areas it's coyotes. In other areas, the biggest danger you'll face will be loose dogs and idiotic humans that steal or vandalize. My dogs travel to and from work with me and sleep in the house, so I solved my coyote and "stupid human" problems with a donkey, better fencing, and padlocks.


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## Wulf (Aug 12, 2016)

As for predators, we have bears, mountain lions, coyotes, and are starting to have more wolves in the area. I'm sure we'll have loose dogs and stupid humans as well. Ha!


Based on the recommendations further down in the thread, I contacted White Clover Sheep Farm and got this reply:


"I used GSDs in Germany. That is why I have them. And no, a herding dog cannot be at the same time a guard dog. You need two different dogs of two different breeds because herding and guarding are two completely different instincts which are mutually exclusive."


I asked him about why he chooses to not train border collies, and he said:


"Border Collies do something different than I do, that's all."


Fair enough. I appreciate all of the help.






Deb said:


> Just saw this, guess it finally came through for you. *S*
> 
> You need to look at the predators in the area where you want to have your small farm. Even with three sheep, if there are predators, they'll find them if they're outside. If you want a GSD that will stay with you, I'm assuming you mean in the house at night with you? You'll need to put the sheep up at night if you only have a few and don't plan on a dog out there with them. As you grow your flock you'll want to look into a guardian dog that will stay out with them.





WIBackpacker said:


> Finding modern GSD litters where both sire & dam have herding titles (not just instinct tests) is a pretty tall order, there aren't a ton of people out there with this breed doing this type of work. The gentleman who runs the active HGH group bred one of his HGH females to a SchH3 male earlier this year, he wrote a detailed post on Facebook regarding the fact that the HGH gene pool is very small, therefore he looks within other titling venues to find what he wants for his future generations. Interesting info to read up on, if you're curious.
> 
> I agree 100% with Deb that you need to determine what sort of predators you're up against before you know what sort of protection they need. In some areas it's coyotes. In other areas, the biggest danger you'll face will be loose dogs and idiotic humans that steal or vandalize. My dogs travel to and from work with me and sleep in the house, so I solved my coyote and "stupid human" problems with a donkey, better fencing, and padlocks.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

A friend of mine, who is a herding judge and teaches herding, has cattle, sheep, goats, ducks, on her property. She breeds border collies and smooth collies. Her BCs help her daily on her place, and she has a Pyrenees/Anatolian cross as a livestock guardian dog. 

Oh, she is handling a GSD in herding at the National this week. Trying to finish his herding championship there.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Wulf said:


> I asked him about why he chooses to not train border collies, and he said:
> 
> "Border Collies do something different than I do, that's all."


That's interesting. I'm curious. Did he explain more about that? I mean if he's herding with his sheep, how is he doing something different? Is he using the shepherds for just driving? It's all right if you didn't ask. Like I said, I'm just curious.


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## Wulf (Aug 12, 2016)

Deb said:


> That's interesting. I'm curious. Did he explain more about that? I mean if he's herding with his sheep, how is he doing something different? Is he using the shepherds for just driving? It's all right if you didn't ask. Like I said, I'm just curious.



I did ask, but I think he's too busy to go into detail. I did notice on his website that he uses the word "tending" instead of "herding." Maybe that has something to do with it? I'm just learning about all of this, so to me they would mean the same thing, but maybe there's a reason for his choice of words. Maybe to an expert more knowledgeable than I, there is a clear difference between tending (with GSDs) and herding (with BCs)? Not sure. I will ask him to clarify if/when he has time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Border Collie's and German Shepherds have two different "herding" styles. Ulf is very knowledgeable. Pick his brain.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here are articles on his website that might be of interest to you
Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Wulf said:


> I did ask, but I think he's too busy to go into detail. I did notice on his website that he uses the word "tending" instead of "herding." Maybe that has something to do with it? I'm just learning about all of this, so to me they would mean the same thing, but maybe there's a reason for his choice of words. Maybe to an expert more knowledgeable than I, there is a clear difference between tending (with GSDs) and herding (with BCs)? Not sure. I will ask him to clarify if/when he has time.



Earlier you mentioned Germany with him in context. In Germany there are very few fences. (I've lived there and walked many a long walk over their many paths.) Tending is where the shepherd takes them up to a pasture but there may be crops alongside them. The dogs are basically living fences, keeping the sheep on the pasture or field and not allowing them to get into the crops.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wow like you have all the predators you can possibly have. There is tons of info here and great tips to find out more information. Sheep herding is new to me as well. I just wanted to the add a little bit to the history of tending on what found to read which was interesting. Wishing you much luck on your venture keep us posted.

http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-articles/History of Tending In Germany.pdf


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

OP, I've looked into HGH-style herding as well. Ulf at White Clover seems to be the only person, at least in the eastern US, who focuses on that style of herding. I've read about a few farms and ranches in Europe, mainly Germany, that still use GSD's, and some in the Netherlands that still use Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. So the "tending" style of herding is used, but certainly doesn't seem as prevalent as Bordie Collie and Australian style of herding dogs. If you want to pursue HGH-style herding, you'll want to do some training with Ulf (I'm not sure how practical that is for you).

I think at one point, GSD's and similar "tending" herders were used to both herd the flock as well as protect it (thinking back hundreds of years ago, not just a few decades). But most of the major predators in western Europe were extirpated long ago (and have only recently started to come back), so by and large, there has been little need for these tending breeds to truly guard the flock. I'm sure such duties could be done by the right GSD, but it would require some real dedicated training and socializing from an early age. Most people who have to contend with predator problems go with Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGD's) who are naturally inclined to guard and protect a flock, with minimal training. Examples would be Kangals, Central Asian Ovcharkas, Great Pyrenees, Mareemas, ect. These dogs have been used for centuries, and still are, to guard livestock against predators, so you would likely have a much easier time incorporating them into your livestock plan.

I think if you found the right GSD, you could train it for herding and general farm duties (by that I mean it would watch over your property and livestock as it follows you through your daily chores). But to expect it to stay with and protect livestock 24/7 might be a bridge too far due to how attached GSD's get to their owners. I guess it could be done, but it just seems a whole lot easier to go and get a LGD or a donkey or lama, depending on your predator situation. 

Here are some very good sites on LGD's in case you are interested: Livestock Guardian Dogs
Choosing a Livestock Guardian Dog - Homesteading and Livestock - MOTHER EARTH NEWS


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_I think at one point, GSD's and similar "tending" herders were used to both herd the flock as well as protect it (thinking back hundreds of years ago, not just a few decades). But most of the major predators in western Europe were extirpated long ago (and have only recently started to come back), so by and large, there has been little need for these tending breeds to truly guard the flock._


They have not lost that guarding instinct in rural Germany. I've been on many a walk or volksmarch and accidently came across a shepherd and his flock when I lived there. Those dogs were in front of me in a heartbeat. I learned quickly to freeze and the shepherds would call the dogs back. But the GSDs that are farm dogs and the ones with pedigrees are not the same dog, at least not anymore. The average farmer and shepherd don't care about pedigrees in the sense others do, they care only for the working ability of the dogs. They look like working line and most were sable in coloring, very few red and black or other colors. They were also large and no sloping backs.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I really need to figure out how to edit...


_ But to expect it to stay with and protect livestock 24/7 might be a bridge too far due to how attached GSD's get to their owners._

So true. Also, the shepherds in Germany, at least where I was, stayed out with the flocks. The dogs did not stay with the flocks alone. If they didn't stay out, they brought the sheep back down at night.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Deb said:


> They have not lost that guarding instinct in rural Germany. I've been on many a walk or volksmarch and accidently came across a shepherd and his flock when I lived there. Those dogs were in front of me in a heartbeat. I learned quickly to freeze and the shepherds would call the dogs back. But the GSDs that are farm dogs and the ones with pedigrees are not the same dog, at least not anymore. The average farmer and shepherd don't care about pedigrees in the sense others do, they care only for the working ability of the dogs. They look like working line and most were sable in coloring, very few red and black or other colors. They were also large and no sloping backs.


Well I think most GSD's have some amount of guarding instinct, the working lines more so than the show lines. The main ingredient that the GSD is lacking for true, dedicated LGD duties is a desire to attach itself or take possession of a herd 24/7. Most GSD's I've met are simply too people-oriented and too attached to their owners to do that kind of work. I have no doubt that a GSD will vigilantly watch over its herd when the shepherd is physically working the herd (that's what I meant when I talked about a GSD being used for farm duties).

The issue is what will that GSD do once the shepherd goes to sleep or steps away from the herd to attend to other matters? Perhaps a GSD could be trained to guard a flock in those situations, I just think it would be so much easier to get a breed that is already set up to do that kind of work.

I definitely could see a GSD guarding its herd during a shepherd's active hours, like in the example you provided. But for full, 24/7 coverage, there seem to be breeds that are much better suited to such duties.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Exactly, which is what the guardian breeds were bred to do. I agree with you completely.


When the shepherd sleeps the dogs generally sleep next to him is what I was told. I asked, curious like you. I was used to Border Collies and Pyrenees with sheep. If they hear something they're up and at it. I think some did occasional perimeter sweeps. I know my shepherd would do that when my boys camped out on my property. Stryker would sleep with them but get up every few hours to run the fence line. My property isn't 100% fenced, but he never went off property. The first few times the boys thought he'd left, but then realized what he was doing.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Deb said:


> Exactly, which is what the guardian breeds were bred to do. I agree with you completely.
> 
> 
> When the shepherd sleeps the dogs generally sleep next to him is what I was told. I asked, curious like you. I was used to Border Collies and Pyrenees with sheep. If they hear something they're up and at it. I think some did occasional perimeter sweeps. I know my shepherd would do that when my boys camped out on my property. Stryker would sleep with them but get up every few hours to run the fence line. My property isn't 100% fenced, but he never went off property. The first few times the boys thought he'd left, but then realized what he was doing.


Lol...my guy is very similar. On a remote camping trip, I had a few coyotes circle around my campfire one night. I couldn't see them (they seemed to know to stay just far enough away that they were out of the fire's light), but I could hear them yipping as they moved around. Several times my guy went out to sniff and check things out and marked his "territory" once or twice. And then he went back to laying down, a bit away from the fire so that he too wasn't in the light. 

I don't think he knew what they were (he had never encountered coyote before) but he knew enough to stay vigilant. I think those coyotes knew he was a dog but far too big for a meal (I was also keeping tabs on him when he went on his perimeter checks, so there was never any real danger).

Not at all a shepherding story, but it's funny how some of those instincts are still prevalent in these dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The HGH is the "tending style" of herding - lots of border patrol to keep sheep from straying....the AKC herding titles involve moving a few sheep from point A to point B through point C from what I understand.....

I have a female who has the HGH - there was once a second HGH club - but due to bitter animosity and politics and back stabbing - the man who had the sheep got disgusted and quit....my female got her title with another board member, phgsd (Meghan) who has since pretty much concentrated and gotten involved with JRTs - she did 2 dogs to HGH titles, and my Kira (formerly co-owned with her) got her title at 23 months....she has produced wonderful pups who are doing IPO and AKC sports and I am hoping to repeat that litter in the New Year.



Lee


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah awhile back I saw Max use his sheep herding skills without the sheep. My son was playing ball in the backyard with Max and I in the front yard. Two loose dogs a boxer and some other large dog came in our front yard. Max scaled the fence (which he now had to rig higher) Max had clearly layed a boundary that he let the other dogs know they should not cross with some air snapping and sniffing he was standing his ground. They were all just standing around not moving. I went to get max and one of the dogs started to head in my direction. max veered him off like he does the sheep letting the dog get no where near me but back where he was. The dogs got the message and seem to listen. I got Max in all was good. Max seemed to have fun doing this seemed proud.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

If one is really, really serious about doing German shepherd tending the best thing to do is to go attend the annual SV-Bundesleistungshüten in Germany - the national herding trials for GSDs. schaeferhunde.de/en/blh/
There you will find the few experts still remaining and the dogs they use and sometimes breed. If one has interest in herding pedigrees and bloodlines, put the names of the following dogs from schaeferhunde.de/fileadmin/BLH/Documents/Ergebnisse/blh_2017.pdf
into google search and you will typically be directed to the appropriate dogs pedigrees in pedigreedatabase or workingdog sites.
I once had a female with bottom lines from BLS champions. She was extremely voice sensitive that I had to not curse while driving a car because it would bother her. Genetic obedience. Never needed a leash correction all her life. Never pulled on a leash because she automatically adjusted her pace with mine. Often trained herself. Had the instinct when put on sheep and cows but of course needed training which I did not really have time for at that time to get proper titles, etc. Even the very best GSDs need a lot of training to HGH but they also need the strongest genetic instincts to be sensitive to both the handler and the animals. My female herded my neighbor's herd of cows whenever they entered my acreage and she would actually slow them down when they passed over ice on the ground because she instinctively knew they should not get hurt. The cows could be stubborn and when she needed to move them she acted with a pronounced power that was awesome to see but she never bit a single cow.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I just though I’d post my experience and thoughts on herding. It’s an exciting and very demanding sport. It takes a special dog in what ever breed you choose. An$ it’s not cheap.

My experience with herding is limited. I investigated extensively however before going out so at least I had some idea of the expectations. The trainer took the first night to explain to us newbe just what our type of dog was bred to do be it herder, tender or drover. There is crossover among breeds so basic type is not locked in stone. I got to see rough Collie , smooth collie, Border Collie , Kelpie , MalINOIS, GSD , Corgy, Australian Shepherd, Travern, Bernese, Shelty, and surprisingly a Rottweiler. There were a couple others too.

She explained that the herding instinct is either there or it is not. That you can not train what’s not there. She also said that many dogs will have a very weak instinct that sometimes awakens but usually not. Most of the herding instinct in the herding breeds has been lost here in the U.S.A.
For the most part only the Border collies, Aussies and Kelpies have much left, then usually just the stock dog lines. Many are cross bred by the farm people to get working qualities. With that she said don’t expect much the first couple lessons. Maybe two or three 5 minute exercises to get acquainted with the sheep. 

My own purpose with my Aussie was more to temper excessive prey drive than actual herding. And do it under controlled conditions. The trainer generally uses a long handled plastic paddle to direct and keep the dogs from attacking the sheep. A couple whacks with the paddle usually gets the dog’s attention and lets him know he is to bring dinner home not kill it first.LOL. It’s not as brutal as it sounds more often the paddle is used like a broom or just smacked on the ground. The dogs are off leash so it’s a bit chaotic at first. The second round she had each of us just enter the ring and stay out of the way. She told me not to get between the sheep and the fence. I made a mistake here and got blindsided by a 300 pound sheep into the fence. Were I still playing hockey I would have come up swinging but Samantha cut the sheep off and pulled her to the ground and pulled a couple pounds of wool out of her before the trainer got her with the paddle. By the way, sheep poop can be kinda slimy. 

Anyway it was interesting. The poor GSD cowered away as the sheep chased him around. The Mal tried the tough guy bark but he didn’t follow up. These sheep are dog wise. They know when a dog knows what to do and when there is a greenhorn in the ring. The dogs have to learn to gather the sheep and cover the ornery ones. Sometimes there are a couple at each side of the flock that try to run so the dog must chase them back then rush to the other side to run the others back. The green dogs have a tough time with this. Especially if they get run over. This is where the instinct comes in. The dog picks up pretty quick on this and I think the prey drive drops off and the herding takes over. My dog is an extremely high drive dog so it took a little longer but eventually she calmed down and began the work. The end result was that her prey drive became controllable even in high drive. Overdrive I call it. We only continued for a couple months then my work schedule imploded.

In watching the experienced dogs work in the larger pastures with larger flocks you could see different styles in the dogs. Part of the training involves preparation for competitive events so each dog has to be trained or directed according to his instinctive actions to do the event. For me it was difficult to pick up. I know what was trying to be done and the goals but the process just didn’t click. I liken it a lot to my early days in the SCH sport. There was so much to learn in a dynamic situation. It was hard to pick a single thing to work on. I seems like it all had to be done at the same time. It’s amazing that the dog just knows what to do. The hard part is having him do what you want according to the event rules. The dog has no way of knowing this, only that a force within is directing him to herd the sheep using his innate tools. The best you can do is direct him. From what I saw the good dog’s obedience was good but not precise. They would come when called but more or less just hung around rather than a formal sit in position. They were pretty easy going middle of the road dogs. My dog nothing is slow, it’s full throttle be it run, sliding to a halt or machine gun barking. It was a challenge just to learn to enter the ring calmly while the sheep were running around. This transferred into real life nicely. We now go through doors very calm and precisely regardless of distraction. We go up and down steps very controlled step by step. The bottom line for us was that the herding experience taught the beginnings of working in high stress. As I noted overdrive. 

Many of the dogs while beautiful examples of the breeds just simply had little or no interest in the sheep. Some would come into the ring and hike a leg on a post or just go and take a dump. Others didn’t even want to come into the ring at all and gave fear signs. Just as some dogs did in SCH. Back in my days if they showed this they were excused from the sport. My guess in herding this would be the case too. It’s so much easier to work with a dog that wants to do it. It’s not a fault I don’t think, just a disappointment to the owner/handler.

You would think there would be lots of herding clubs in our country in the west but there is not. I’m sure there are lot of farms and ranches that have herding dogs but I think they really depend on their dogs and just dont have time to offer training to outsiders. It costs a lot to maintain a flock of sheep or herd of cows just for dog training so economically its tough. 

I’ve probably got more memories but I’ll have be jogged about them. I would like to go back but I just can’t run anymore. Sam is much calmer now but still can run all day and I just can’t keep,up with this. If we could just take a flock out in th3 pasture and walk around with them it would be ok. Competition, nope.

Byron


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This is the tending style of herding. The dog acts as a living fence to keep the sheep from wandering away from the grazing area and getting into crops:

http://https://www.facebook.com/firethornfarmsheeptending/videos/1960159994203396/

This is how a border collie herds. They use their gaze to intimidate the animals: I am using the duck video as an example, as the herding area is much smaller, making it much easier to see the dogs' body language: 






This explains the different styles of herding. A border collie herds with a strong eye, a GSD with a roving eye: Types of Eye in Herding Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I will also say that not all GSD's are great at tending stock. I have one of each here, my male make a great tending dog on larger stock animals (sheep, goat and cattle) while my female is best for moving stock around and has a difficult time with tending. 

My parents own quite a lot of land in my home town and most of my uncles and aunts are large farmers (cattle and chicken/turkey). They have all had GSD's and BC's at one point on their farms, including my father who used our GSD to move his flocks of turkey and chickens around (200+). 

When I did herding with both of my dogs (a few years apart from one another) it was a completely different situation with each one. My male was thoughtful, easy to control once boundaries were set. He did very well with tending style and even today is very good with tending larger numbers of stock; however, small numbers of stock will cause his prey drive to kick in and makes him a little more difficult to handle (still manageable with reminders to back off). 

While my female can not control herself at the start. It took almost 4 months to get her to back off the stock and we moved her to hardy goats to get her to learn self control. She kept in balance naturally but liked to "punish" the stock for misbehaving (or what she considered to be bad behaviour). She is a HARD dog and corrections would not do much if her drive was too high. It took a long time and a bunch of hard lessons for us both to get it through to her that she was not in charge of MY stock. Now she is respectful and can move stock pretty good, including my Dad's birds (100+) with ease and control. When she visits the farm she is able to help bring in the free grazing birds and my uncles stock animals. We only did a year or more of official lessons but this has been her life on and off.

Just this week I had them both at my parents place with some chickens (only about 20 birds since its mid-winter) and both did very well. My male actually got in the pen and caused a ruckus with the rooster who challenged him but he did not bite nor hurt anyone, just chased. If that had been my female, she probably would of killed it for not backing down.

Neither in my opinion make great herding dogs even though many of their siblings and relatives do very well in the sport.

Know what you want on your farm, the numbers of animals and then go to an experienced trainer and breeder for what would work with your lifestyle/farm.

Good luck, I do IPO but herding is a secret love I have. My parents are getting sheep and goat again (haven't had them around since I was a kid) and I look forward to working my dogs on them periodically.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> This is the tending style of herding. The dog acts as a living fence to keep the sheep from wandering away from the grazing area and getting into crops:
> This is how a border collie herds. They use their gaze to intimidate the animals: I am using the duck video as an example, as the herding area is much smaller, making it much easier to see the dogs' body language:
> 
> This explains the different styles of herding. A border collie herds with a strong eye, a GSD with a roving eye: [/url]


A video where you have both BCs and Altdeutscher Hütehund at the same time. AH are one of the "breeds" (in quotation marks bec. they are not really a breed based on physical appearance) that were ancestral to the GSD. The GSD and AH herding style is one and the same.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as it was when the breed was created 
" The average farmer and shepherd don't care about pedigrees in the sense others do, they care only for the working ability of the dogs. They look like working line and most were sable in coloring, very few red and black or other colors. They were also large and no sloping backs."

they knew the "pedigrees" , kept private records, kept a keen and critical eye on who had what dogs hoping to have some of "it" themselves 

puppies were valued by their working aptitude .

Ms Wolfstraum -- I hav loved that little Kira dog for ever and a day.
I picked apart the pedigree and traced the GENETIC old true practical working herding dogs back as far as I could -- and she is a genetic treasure house -- 

I do the same with mine because I want to conserve and re-invigorate those genes , which I may not use for herding , although I have had many "farm" dogs , working dairy farms -- and fleece sheep - many . The traits held by those
genetics are so useful in other work -- and over all balance is necessary !

Can you ask Meghan if she can find the email with the tons of touches to old herding genetics ? 
I believe I did this for her when Kira was about 4 months (or less) in age -- 

herding for her ? Bred in the bone ! 

After a few years' of correcspondence with an urban shepherd , and a German speaking only wanderschaferei it is a glaring fact that what we know as GSD are not used ---- too hard to find ---- Altdeutsche HUTEHUND, not
the newish subgroup which collected all and sundry long-haired gsd --- are the dogs that are used for work.

pedigree background?
Manto Kalenbach --- marries Lord Gleisdreieck to the U litter Kirshental


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> as it was when the breed was created
> " The average farmer and shepherd don't care about pedigrees in the sense others do, they care only for the working ability of the dogs. They look like working line and most were sable in coloring, very few red and black or other colors. They were also large and no sloping backs."
> 
> they knew the "pedigrees" , kept private records, kept a keen and critical eye on who had what dogs hoping to have some of "it" themselves
> ...


well she is producing super nice working pups....too bad I can't get more interest in them from working homes, but I don't compromise and just breed to a "name"....pups are very very drivy....pleased as can be with them....still trying to find a male where I like BOTH sides of the pedigree for her 3rd and last litter!

the herding??? the dog herds bones/toys....gathers them from all over into a small pile...

sent you a PM regarding the old email

Lee


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Here is some info on this breed. These guys look a lot like Aussies and about the same size. Lots of energy. 

https://www.google.com/search?clien...HYAhUm44MKHZffDksQ1QIIxQEoAQ&biw=1024&bih=723


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