# My dog got bitten



## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

A dalmatian, has bitten my dog twice (they had a scuffle before). Yesterday was the second time.
It was at our pack walk. I am not gonna lie our trainer is not a method guy, he is kind of crazy, but so far for the last months, his ideas had worked for our dog. There are only like 4 trainers in our state, one is super expensive but people say he has been scamming lots of owners around (I have heard this from known people), the second in price is our trainer who is quite a character, then, the the third one is the idiot we had before who put a prong on a 5 month pup for no freaking reason, the fourth one is a guy that we have not yet taken our dog to. 



The thing is our trainer is good, we have had great moments thanks to him, he has allowed our dog to have a more social life with the world (he has some fear reactivity and such). He is does this socializations in large fields every week. He is the only trainer that does large field socializations.



But the thing is we have had differences many times. I have taken them in, and not discussed them before, because I never wanted to ruin it for my dog. He has been moving forward with this rutine, at least till a couple of months ago. Odham my dog is around 20 months old. 



Most dogs he has no issues with, they all respect his space in our pack walks on saturdays, except for one. A crazy dalmatian with an "always on the phone owner". This dog is a little over 1 year old. He plays with almost every dog, mainly with the females though. He even tries to fight a dog that every other dog is scare of, a Dutch shepherd called Marvin. 



But yesterday it was the second time that he approached our dog, we were about to cross a boulevard with lots of cars, and he came after my dog, my sister was holding him. We have taken our space, but the owner of the dalmatian allowed him off leash, and he bit my dog in the neck and ear area, he would not let him go, and my dog was crying a lot. I tried to separate them as fast as could, I freak out, then my dog ran, almost to the boulevard and then to me and my sister. This had happened a time before, but it was not that hard to remove the other dog. 



My trainer, like the first time gave a speech with this points: 

- This was an accident.
-This was an accident...
- The dalmatian you should not worry about cause his teeth are like a Cocker's....
- The dalmatian you should not worry about cause his teeth are like a Cocker's....
- Odham has bigger teeth

- This was your fault because you over protect him.... 



(The over protection is not right, I do not do that, I have seen him in the large socializations been corrected and such by other dogs which is not the same as being bullied)



Now, I know and I have read about how the dog that got bitten is probably the guilty. But honestly, the dog came oout of nowhere, between the other dogs around us. We were close to others, just about to cross the street. 



Since this was the second time (Third if we count the scuffle in which he bit my dog's ear), I got really mad. I disscussed with the trainer, and even with the other owner. The other owner said as previous ocassions that he did not got to see anything and that my dog has the bigger teeth (hence, if my dog ever fights back I will probably end up with a high vet bill). I got frustrated, my trainer got mad and went from "mansplaining" to telling me that every situation as such was my fault (and that his system is anty system) and that I could do as I wanted with my dog.



The dalmatian usually is called at least 4 to 6 times before actually listening to his owner. My dog has a perfect recall, a not so perfect sit and stay, but would say a 95% on those two. 



I really dont know what to do. I feel really guilty, regarding me not doing anything before this situation (allowing much bull**** around my dog), regarding what to do with my pup now or how I acted yesterday. I just do not know what to do. If I leave beacause of this, my dog might not socialize again, and if I stay there, I will be mad and uncomfortable many times, while I will risk my dog to end up in such situation again. Maybe we are being cowards by staying in this comfort zone with him. Probably we should arrange play dates with a dog or two that might agree, I could take our dog with muzzle on if necessary. I am just not sure. 



Anyway, I pretty much, I wanted to share it, that's it. I feel bad. Please do not be judgemental against me, not in a hard way at least. I have tried my best for this dog, and I am still doing that.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Get your dog out of there. That sounds like a God-awful trainer. Allowing something like that to happen multiple times and then saying it’s your dog’s fault because he has bigger teeth? What does that even mean? And saying that the Dalmatian isn’t something to worry about because his teeth are like a cocker’s? That’s just crazy. Even a chihuahua can leave a nasty wound. Your dog is just going to be made more fearful and uncomfortable by being randomly attacked. It isn’t doing him any good. Get out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"There are only like 4 trainers in our state,..."

Is that a typo? 

Large Field Socialization calls for anybody, the nearest people, to do whatever they have to in order to stop another dog from bullying or attacking another, even if they have to get more physical than what most people are comfortable with.

"My trainer, like the first time gave a speech with this points:

- This was an accident.
-This was an accident...
- The dalmatian you should not worry about cause his teeth are like a Cocker's....
- The dalmatian you should not worry about cause his teeth are like a Cocker's....
- Odham has bigger teeth

- This was your fault because you over protect him...."

Pure crazy talk.

"Now, I know and I have read about how the dog that got bitten is probably the guilty."

More crazy talk. 

If you really like the progress your dog has made and want to continue with these classes, I would be 100% prepared to introduce the bully Dalmation to Jesus if he were to attempt to bully again. Be prepared for the owner to be angry. Evidently they like the bullying behavior and they will be upset if you prohibit it from happening. Be prepared for the trainer to be angry. Tell him it was an accident.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can I ask a question? 

What do you want for your dog with respect to socialization? I mean, at the end of the day, what do you need for your dog to function well within the scope of your life?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is NOT your fault. It is the fault of the Dalmation owner. And the trainer needs his head examined for thinking otherwise.

Personally, I don't need my dog to socialize with other dogs. In your case, continued attacks will do the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do not use that trainer again. He has no idea what he is talking about. Dalmatians don’t grab on and not let go. I would bet that it’s mixed with a fighting breed. I don’t do that kind of loose socialization either. I’m curious why you were not all over the owner of the other dog? I would not have gone away quietly without everyone knowing what happened and who is at fault.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@MineAreWorkingline the op is located in Mexico where good trainers are evidently few and far between.

What the trainer told you is 100% incorrect.Don't go back ever.If your dog truly enjoys playing with other dogs play dates are a good idea.If he really does not,there's no reason to bother with it.It's much more important for your dog to focus on you and your sister and trust you both.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How we conceive of pets is sometime erroneous. We think of them as family, as children, with fur. We know they are not. But we love them, we are loyal to them. We want for them to be happy. 

The only problem is that we are approaching what makes our pets happy from a human perspective. 

Our children need to grow up, move out, be self-sufficient/independent, have a moral code that he lives by, and function in the world interacting and having relationships with other humans. So it would not only not make them unhappy to be isolated from other children all the time, but it would be abusive or at least neglectful to do so. 

At the end of the day, with your dog, you have a critter who is totally dependent on you, and needs to be managed all the time. 

If you were on a desert island with just your dog, your dog would be totally happy, and you would not be. Because your dog has all of his relational needs met in you. Your family is his family and like his pack to him. Predators outside the pack, in the wild are attacked, driven off, or killed. Your dog does not look to strangers to fulfill any need. Yes, they can enjoy romping and playing with other dogs. Sometimes. But they would rather romp and play with you. 

At the end of the day, unless you are raising up a service dog, what you need is a dog that doesn't go wacko when he sees another dog, and the only place he has to go is the vet. So you don't want to have to muzzle or sedate your dog to take him to the vet. Everything else is a bonus. Taking the dog to the park, hiking trails, walks around the neighborhood, the pet store -- these are for you, and dependent on the chemistry between you and your dog as well as your dog's temperament moreso than early experiences. 

What your dog needs is to be in situations where other people and dogs are present and under control. Like, a dog class where everyone has a leash on. Then, your dog learns that other dogs exist and are allowed to be, and are under control. When you allow free-play between strange dogs, there is always the possibility of a dog attack, and there is also at best, the idea that when your dog sees another dog, it is play time. This is not what you want. It is far easier to have a dog ignore outside dogs. Then you can take them anywhere, and do anything with them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think taking your dog places and letting him explore and enjoy his surroundings are a part of meeting a dog's drives as well as enrichment. 
@LuvShepherds, I would pay good money to see you on that soapbox.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I will take a video.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I agree with the other posters...
what is "socialized" to you? A dog that can play with any other dog, or a dog that can coexist calmly and peacefully with other dogs in the area? I think that as a breed, GSDs are not usually cut out to be that "dog that can play with any other dog". 

Every thing your trainer said sounds nuts! I'm glad you came to ask the forum. If her dog has bitten another dog, the owner should not be letting her dog offleash....size of teeth has nothing to do with it. It may be an 'accident' but it could make your dog aggressive towards all other dogs, which is the opposite of what you want from "socialization"!?

Rather than having your dog run around offleash with other dogs, I'd sign up for the kind of class where your dog is on leash and paying attention to you, even with other dogs and owners around. And I'd set my goal to be, that your dog could walk calmly down the street and pass another dog without barking/lunging/growling/pulling. He should be willing to give you his attention or be in a "heel" position even with another dog nearby. To me, that's enough!

We learned to pass other dogs calmly using treats, "Look at Me" and "Heel." He didn't have to play offleash with other dogs at all, to learn how to do this. In fact, other dogs get a lot less interesting if he knows that we probably will NOT be saying Hi or playing with them just because we happened to pass by.

And I'm sorry your dog got bitten! :-( 
Hopefully, no puncture and he didn't get hurt.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> A crazy dalmatian with an "always on the phone owner".


And this is YOUR fault??

Get your dog out of there. That trainer is nuts, and the dalmatian owner negligent for not watching their dog more carefully!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDchoice said:


> I agree with the other posters...
> what is "socialized" to you? A dog that can play with any other dog, or a dog that can coexist calmly and peacefully with other dogs in the area? I think that as a breed, GSDs are not usually cut out to be that "dog that can play with any other dog".
> 
> Every thing your trainer said sounds nuts! I'm glad you came to ask the forum. If her dog has bitten another dog, the owner should not be letting her dog offleash....size of teeth has nothing to do with it. It may be an 'accident' but it could make your dog aggressive towards all other dogs, which is the opposite of what you want from "socialization"!?
> ...


This. Almost to the letter. The only thing is that SOME GSDs can be that kind of dog. Which makes it all the more disappointing and confusing. I mean, you see another GSD running around and playing with other dogs without issue, and it is hard not to feel like a failure if your dog is unable to do this. But it has nothing to do with us. 

GSDs are so varied as a breed, and there is temperament which is genetic that can play a major factor, and there is what I call birth-order which could be temperament, but I think it is something different. In a wolf pack, you have an alpha dog and an alpha bitch. These walk around lie their poop doesn't stink, and all the other dogs just know it. There are beta dogs that are wanna-be alphas, who fight and jockey for position within the pack, particularly so if an alpha is injured or dies. There are the middle of the road dogs that follow the hunt, happy to be in the middle of the pack. There are the omega dogs, that can be so low that they are removed from the pack, beaten out or killed, but they also can be the dogs that babysit the pups when the pack goes hunting. They are last on the list when it comes to food, but they have a function. 

Trying to make an middle of the road pup out of an omega dog unfair to the dog and unkind. These are dogs that if pressed may react or may just be bullied and submit. Not every dog that might react is a natural omega dog, just like not every dog that fights is a beta or alpha dog. It's complicated. 

German Shepherd dogs, as herding/working dogs have a higher level of aggression and suspicion than some other breeds. And a dog that would defend the herd against human and animal predators may not play well in an ever-changing pack of dogs. So often they do not do well in a free-for-all group setting, like dog parks and doggy day cares. And some GSDs do just fine in those settings. 

I think it is best to know what kind of dog you have and then cater your management so as to provide the best environment for the dog in front of you. Some of it can be affected by how the dog is socialized, but I think we do far more damage by socializing incorrectly, than by not doing enough.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

selzer said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> What do you want for your dog with respect to socialization? I mean, at the end of the day, what do you need for your dog to function well within the scope of your life?


When we started, my dog had not been around other dogs -actually spending time with them-, and reactivity was putting us in a really lonely place. We could only walk at really strange hours and in really lonely sites. 

When he started the socializations he was freaking scare of other dogs, but he did not know how to communicate nor how to read the others. Right now he is slightly better at that and that has given him some confidence. He can give some cues now. 

But in response to your question, I guess we do not need those socialization sessions, I just want to walk my dog, not even in really crowded places, just a park here and there, or a street, go hiking sometimes (not as safe though, mainly for crime). 

Some others mentioned if he likes to play, honestly, my dog does not like to actually engage. My dog does approach the other dogs when they are playing and see them, but he does not get involve in the play itself. He is a wallflower. He goes around, and sometimes likes to get in the middle of the group of dogs, he does some smell here and there, and then goes back to be outside of the group, takes his space, and most dogs respect that. (He used to try to herd small dogs, but not anymore). He is a big dog, around 102lb. 

Most have mentioned we should quit. It is scary, because we relied on those meetings, either in the week or the weekends. But sounds like the correct thing to do, there is absolutely no common sense in what we are doing if we stay with them.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Do not use that trainer again. He has no idea what he is talking about. Dalmatians don’t grab on and not let go. I would bet that it’s mixed with a fighting breed. I don’t do that kind of loose socialization either. I’m curious why you were not all over the owner of the other dog? I would not have gone away quietly without everyone knowing what happened and who is at fault.


I was over them. I made a scene. I was told many times during the final 20 min of the walk that I was making a big deal. My sister and I, we are the only females there most of the time (many owners come and go from those classes). To be completely honest, I did think for a second that they were right and I was not (our trainer mentioned we could end up with a dog worse than when we started if we stopped with taking him to the pack walks, and at times he had been good to us before, thus, it was hard to make a decision at that time). 

The first time it happened I also exploded. But I ended up thinking it was an accident. This time, I was not into the accident idea. I told them continuosly that it was a negligence on their end.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well it wasn't your fault that this happened, but it is now up to you to ensure your dog's safety. Some of why your dog is somewhat better is that he has more confidence in you. So help him out. When you see someone with a phone and loose dog, you keep space between your dog and theirs, go the other way if necessary. If the dog comes near yours, before there is an interaction, say sternly, GO HOME! or GET YOUR DOG! Act before your dog has to react. 

But mostly you want to expose your dog to dogs who are under control, leashed, that you do not allow the distance to be near enough for any contact. In fact, you want enough distance so your boy does not react. As he becomes accustomed to seeing under control dogs from that distance, you can get a little more close, but NEVER close enough that the dogs can connect. At the same time, you are working with the dog and having success training a variety of things, like SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME which may work perfectly on your own, but in the presence of other on-leash dogs (i.e. distractions) a little tougher. But these help your dog have confidence in himself and in you. And if you act by telling your dog what you want him to do, before he reacts, he may never react. He reacts from a position of insecurity and not knowing what to do about it. As he trusts you more to protect him, he will feel secure when you tell him what to do, and that will decrease any reactions from him. 

Good luck with him.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm sorry you dont have better trainers in your area  I agree with others...get out of there. It sounds like this guy watched Ceasar and maybe Dog Man on Netflix and thinks he knows what he is doing.

The whole pack walk/field walk think is very **** Russell (Dog Man on Prime if you want to see the documentary). But, that guy had a talent and I don't think too many other could pull off what he did.

Good luck, you have received some good ideas here.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Cocker spaniels can give quite nasty bites! If this dalmation is the only problem sounds like that owner should leave, but if that won't happen, don't go back. 

Getting attacked is far worse for your dog than not going to pack walks at all. You're lucky that other dogs in the vicinity didn't decide to pile on and then you'll have a really fun pack fight that will result in possibly a dead dog, and injured owners. Stay away! 

Try out that one final trainer if you can afford it... but there are plenty of good resources online on handling dog-dog reactivity and dog-human reactivity (which can be linked to aggression but not necessarily). Either way you need to address this issue directly. 

I'm sorry. It really does sound like you are doing everything you can for your dog and found a poor trainer who hasn't a clue. Who cares if your dog's teeth are bigger? Dogs don't think like that... humans may but not dogs. 

Like Selzer said, a whole lot of this is the genetic hand the dog was dealt. Sure, some GSD love to play with other dogs but plenty of others don't. It's OK if they don't as long a they can be around other dogs and people without losing it. It's not real hard to get there, if you do it right. But finding a good trainer to get you there is often the biggest challenge. 

There are some good trainers on here that may be able to help you remotely. Worth a try...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do you know someone with a calm, dog friendly dog you can walk with or have private play times? It may be a cultural difference in both how dogs and women are treated where you are. I didn’t know your location.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

selzer said:


> Well it wasn't your fault that this happened, but it is now up to you to ensure your dog's safety. Some of why your dog is somewhat better is that he has more confidence in you. So help him out. When you see someone with a phone and loose dog, you keep space between your dog and theirs, go the other way if necessary. If the dog comes near yours, before there is an interaction, say sternly, GO HOME! or GET YOUR DOG! Act before your dog has to react.
> 
> But mostly you want to expose your dog to dogs who are under control, leashed, that you do not allow the distance to be near enough for any contact. In fact, you want enough distance so your boy does not react. As he becomes accustomed to seeing under control dogs from that distance, you can get a little more close, but NEVER close enough that the dogs can connect. At the same time, you are working with the dog and having success training a variety of things, like SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME which may work perfectly on your own, but in the presence of other on-leash dogs (i.e. distractions) a little tougher. But these help your dog have confidence in himself and in you. And if you act by telling your dog what you want him to do, before he reacts, he may never react. He reacts from a position of insecurity and not knowing what to do about it. As he trusts you more to protect him, he will feel secure when you tell him what to do, and that will decrease any reactions from him.
> 
> Good luck with him.


Thanks. I will talk with the last trainer in the list, to see how he handles things, might work to pay him a few one on one sessions with his approach on reactivity and see how that goes. 

Most of my family is afraid of our dog, hence, they would not join with their little frenchies or poodles for a walk. But on the other hand, a second cousin has been insisting on having a walk with his Female GSD (6 months) and our dog. So, I might explain things to him and got something that works for both. 

For the moment, I think we will drop that class. There were some reasons before, but now, it just does not make sense. I just will have to find the courage to walk him on crowded places again on our own.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Do you know someone with a calm, dog friendly dog you can walk with or have private play times? It may be a cultural difference in both how dogs and women are treated where you are. I didn’t know your location.



Most of my family is afraid of him. He barked and lunged to an uncle's dog almost a year ago, but he told everyone how my dog was bravo (aggressive) and crazy, and they still talk about my dog on family meetings. Hence, they do not want to walk their little doggies with us. But my second cousin got himself a female GSD a few months ago and has been insisting on walking together, I might give it a try. His 6 month old puppy looks friendly to other dogs and such, but I have not met her, might be really playful for the age. 



I am from Mexico. We are different, culturally speaking. In regards to how we were treated as women, is more about specific contexts such as this, that group of people from the class is mostly men with their huge Malinois and Dutch Shepherds (and the dalmatian), and some of them, have always mentioned from time to time, that our dog should not belong to 'girls'. I weigh the same as Odham, and I have never, not matter how much he used to lunge a year ago, I had never dropped the leash. He has no bite history. 



We train basic commands at different places, we will also continue with that right now.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> Most of my family is afraid of our dog, hence, they would not join with their little frenchies or poodles for a walk.


Here's my female shepherd playing with my room-mate's chiweenie (chihuahua/mini daschund).


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Saco said:


> Cocker spaniels can give quite nasty bites! If this dalmation is the only problem sounds like that owner should leave, but if that won't happen, don't go back.
> 
> Getting attacked is far worse for your dog than not going to pack walks at all. You're lucky that other dogs in the vicinity didn't decide to pile on and then you'll have a really fun pack fight that will result in possibly a dead dog, and injured owners. Stay away!
> 
> ...



Thank you. 

I guess we will stop for now, I will see what that other trainer has to say, probably pay for a one on one session. I think the problem with most trainers is that they are really focused on sports or bite work. 



I do not think my dog will every like playing with other dogs, though, that is something I already knew, I guess. But I want to fully trust that he can be around his triggers and not loose it. 



Is Jeff Gelman a good trainer?. He does seminars at many places, so, I could probably give it a try, but I dont know.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

CAROLINM said:


> I just will have to find the courage to walk him on crowded places again on our own.


I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie ”What About Bob?” but try and remember to take baby steps. 

A crowded place sounds like a place where you will have your dog over threshold. Freaking out and scared of attack. Find a place where the dog is aware of other dogs but not reacting and reward. Reward the behavior you want, calm behavior around dogs. Then take baby steps closer to the dogs. Done correctly, it will take a while. 
A goal you should also have is to become more interesting than the scary thing. That means you have to find a distance where you can be more attention drawing than the scary dog. It might mean acting like a fool to become amazing. Settling into basic obedience also helps the dog’s structure based mind. 

I think leaving that free for all class is wise. Any herding dog would have trouble with that...and apparently Dalmatians too.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

CAROLINM said:


> Is Jeff Gelman a good trainer?. He does seminars at many places, so, I could probably give it a try, but I dont know.


He isn’t recommended by members of this forum. You can search here to find out why.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

My dog used to have issues with lunging/growling/barking...both at strange dogs, people running or moving quickly (especially Men), bikes, etc. We also had to walk at weird times of day in empty places. He wasn't severely reactive, but he was in the "sometimes scary" category - we got cursed at by a couple of joggers and glared at by some dog owners...

My exposing him to more dogs and more people was a *gradual* increase...we went from walking in deserted parks in the middle of the day, to walking in big wide streets (we would cross the street to make a lot of space if another dogwalker was coming) to walking in normal-sized streets at busier times of day. I remember feeling very proud when we could walk at 5:30pm in our own neighborhood. This weekend we walked around the local college campus together - down the busiest main street of town, passing cafes and groups of students and dogs and bicyclists - he was well-behaved and he seemed to love it - all the food smells, all the people to see! 

It was a gradual slow process of repetitive training...getting him to look at me on command, getting him to stay close by my leg on command instead of feeling that he could go lunge at other dogs, etc. Also I think that my own manner relaxed as I got more experienced, and that helped my dog to relax. I think I now have a learned habit of looking ahead and "making space" - whatever I think is enough space for us to pass without my dog feeling uncomfortable. It used to be a very big space, now it is a small one...but I still always assess whoever is coming and what is ahead, and sometimes we will step aside to the curb, or pause for a few seconds at the side of a building to let people/dogs/bicyclists go by.


Walking with your cousin's dog sounds good! I'd give it a try...My dog always likes the young females  
It's the other large males that he tends to growl at.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

CometDog said:


> ...
> 
> The whole pack walk/field walk think is very **** Russell (Dog Man on Prime if you want to see the documentary). But, that guy had a talent and I don't think too many other could pull off what he did.
> 
> Good luck, you have received some good ideas here.


Actually it is being implemented all across the country! Large field socialization works, and doesn't require any innate talent to implement necessarily. But it does require people to pay attention and stop aggressive or bullying behavior, which it doesn't sound like this trainer was doing correctly. 

Aimee Sadler has been implementing Dogs Playing For Life, based on Russell's work at shelters all across the country for years. 

Aimmee's web site:

https://dogsplayingforlife.com/dpfl-team/


On D-i-c-k Russell:

https://www.225batonrouge.com/article/archives-iconic-dog-trainer-****-russell

Larry Benoit:


Dog Obedience

Mike Davis:

Large Field Socialization ? Fleur de Lead Dog Training


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> Actually it is being implemented all across the country! Large field socialization works, and doesn't require any innate talent to implement necessarily. But it does require people to pay attention and stop aggressive or bullying behavior, which it doesn't sound like this trainer was doing correctly.
> 
> Aimee Sadler has been implementing Dogs Playing For Life, based on Russell's work at shelters all across the country for years.
> 
> ...



I do not believe that large socializations are bad. I have seen the videos of Russel and Jason Vasconi. 

The thing is, both times the bites took place, it was not at the socializations (which happen on wednesdays), but they happened on saturdays, at our pack walks (my dog on leash not even reacting). Though, as you mention, not even on socialization my trainer corrects bullies.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CAROLINM said:


> I do not believe that large socializations are bad. I have seen the videos of Russel and Jason Vasconi.
> 
> The thing is, both times the bites took place, it was not at the socializations (which happen on wednesdays), but they happened on saturdays, at our pack walks (my dog on leash not even reacting). Though, as you mention, not even on socialization my trainer corrects bullies.


This type of socialization requires that everyone step in and correct dogs that are misbehaving, not just the trainer. He is not running the program correctly. Aggression and bullying is not tolerated with this method. The closet people should be the ones correcting the misbehavior.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

selzer said:


> How we conceive of pets is sometime erroneous. We think of them as family, as children, with fur. We know they are not. But we love them, we are loyal to them. We want for them to be happy.
> 
> The only problem is that we are approaching what makes our pets happy from a human perspective.
> 
> ...


So well said! There’s always some part of me that feels guilty I don’t arrange play dates for my dog anymore and I now provide a wide berth on any hike to a dog but... she would be totally fine on a deserted island with just me. Lol. She’d probably be thrilled. I’m going to remember this the next time I feel bad!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

CAROLINM said:


> I do not believe that large socializations are bad. I have seen the videos of Russel and Jason Vasconi.
> 
> The thing is, both times the bites took place, it was not at the socializations (which happen on wednesdays), but they happened on saturdays, at our pack walks (my dog on leash not even reacting). Though, as you mention, not even on socialization my trainer corrects bullies.


Yes, and that's sad. What is the purpose of the pack walks? I'm especially curious about having some dogs on-leash, and other off-leash. Is that okay with the trainer?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Take a sturdy stick with you whenever you walk by yourself or with your dogs and crack it over the head of any dog that goes after you or your dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I've seen large field socialization done right...it can be so constructive. I'm sorry this was your experience.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> CAROLINM said:
> 
> 
> > I do not believe that large socializations are bad. I have seen the videos of Russel and Jason Vasconi.
> ...


 when I've seen it done they let dogs off leash as they become calm and appropriate. Some wear muzzles the whole time. Some not


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

But dogs on leash were being handled in a specific way to prevent the leash from causing problems.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

You got plenty of advice and opinions. I don’t have anything to add there. What I do want to say is that I am really sorry you, your sister, and Odham experienced such a thing! I have a GSD mix puppy- 7 months and she is timid and fearful of strangers. Been working on it DAILY since we got her at 12 weeks with a trainer and classes. If something like this happened to her, I really don’t know how much she would regress but I’m guessing it would be substantial. I’d be traumatized. 

I hope Odham and you are doing ok.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Take a sturdy stick with you whenever you walk by yourself or with your dogs and crack it over the head of any dog that goes after you or your dog.



My dad has always suggested that. Starts to make sense. 




Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've seen large field socialization done right...it can be so constructive. I'm sorry this was your experience.



It has not always been bad. In the beginning, I like to believe it had some good effects on our dog and in his stability. What I hate right now, are the pack walks, dalmatians, and our trainer. 





Thecowboysgirl said:


> when I've seen it done they let dogs off leash as they become calm and appropriate. Some wear muzzles the whole time. Some not



I wish there was another trainer doing this here. In the proper way. 





GSDmix said:


> You got plenty of advice and opinions. I don’t have anything to add there. What I do want to say is that I am really sorry you, your sister, and Odham experienced such a thing! I have a GSD mix puppy- 7 months and she is timid and fearful of strangers. Been working on it DAILY since we got her at 12 weeks with a trainer and classes. If something like this happened to her, I really don’t know how much she would regress but I’m guessing it would be substantial. I’d be traumatized.
> 
> I hope Odham and you are doing ok.



Thank you. We are fine, he is fine, he is actually a huge dog, and in spite of having some blood next to his ear, he does not care. His thick fur helps. I do not think that this has any actual physical consequence, yet, it is his mental wellness that has worried me every time this has happened, this time he actually felt scared, cried loudly (even letting go his anal glands, -not sure about the translation of that line-). 



I am really mad, though, my sister and I keep discussing it every day, always getting into the same conclussion of leaving that group/trainer for good, but obviously scare to face the idea of steping out of our comfort zone. Pack walks allowed us to take Odham downtown and through the not so lonely streets, alongside the university and through cafes. But doing things on our own terms has probably been something we needed to do for a while. 





Thank you all who have shared your opinions, They have been really important for us.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Just in case you were wondering how does he look. Here it is him, with my other sister (the youngest).


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

CAROLINM said:


> Some others mentioned if he likes to play, honestly, my dog does not like to actually engage. My dog does approach the other dogs when they are playing and see them, but he does not get involve in the play itself. He is a wallflower. He goes around, and sometimes likes to get in the middle of the group of dogs, he does some smell here and there, and then goes back to be outside of the group, takes his space, and most dogs respect that. (He used to try to herd small dogs, but not anymore). He is a big dog, around 102lb.


All of this is fine. Jack can be like this, too. He's very choosy about who he plays with. Most of the time, he engages in a polite greeting, does whatever posturing is required to demand his personal space, and then watches other dogs. He'll get in the middle of a rowdy group if they start seeming "too rowdy" and ultimately break up the blob by just wading into the mix. The only time he really plays is...if he meets a dog that he just really likes for one reason or another.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Take a sturdy stick with you whenever you walk by yourself or with your dogs and crack it over the head of any dog that goes after you or your dog.


You just described my ex's village in Co Louth Ireland that we use to visit several times a year before we went and had too many children. 

Me to my ex mother in law: I think I'll take a jog

MIL: you'll need this ( a cane that looks like a chew toy, but they don't have a dog)

Me: I think I'll hang out in your garden

We were driving on the roads there to go visiting and they have these sprawling properties on the east coast. Nobody has fences. We are passing this one property and tells me dont let the Alsatian startle you. Huh? This huge GSD comes barreling out of the property and HITS the side of the car like Cujo. What the? Apparently animal control has to travel down from Dublin and they rarely do anything. Anyway during the rest of that visit the dog knocked the wrong person's 5 year old off a bike and tore his jeans and broke skin. Someone gave him a terminal meat patty the next night. 

It's every man for himself there in those parts when it comes to dogs lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CAROLINM said:


> My dad has always suggested that. Starts to make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always suggest on-lead classes, and in tall the classes I have taken dogs to over the years, my dog has only been bitten once. A couple of close calls. But this elderly couple brought a pair of some sort of terrier. I hated the male dog. 

I know I wrote about it on here years ago. They had an e-collar on the dog and a prong collar on him, and I think a citronella no-bark collar on him. All the gadgets in the world aren't going to work if you can't pay attention to your dog! The man had the remote in his hand, the leash, treats, and so forth. 

Well, I was walking by to take my turn in the ring and the dog lunged and bit my dog in back. I was furious. But I cooled down. I thought about it, and I decided, if any people needed dog-training classes, these people did. 

A year or so later, I went to a party at my trainer's house and when they came up in our conversation, she said the dog is no longer welcome there, because it attacked one of their dogs. 

I don't know the point of my story, except that you aren't alone, and feeling pissed about it is totally normal.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

I take my dogs for walks, but never pack walks with dogs outside the family. It always seemed like bad results would be a given, sooner or later. Likewise with dog parks. I have had larger than average dogs so many other dogs react with instant fear. 

Also, I don't want to have to rely on anyone else to control their dogs. For example, I have a friend who walks her dog in the neighborhood. She is in her 70s and the dog outweighs her by a good 40 pounds. If the dog really wants to do something, she isn't going to be able to stop him. That's not to mention the people who really don't watch how their dog is behaving. We can have perfectly good walks alone. 

As for training, my dogs need to know not to poop in the house, come when called, sit, lay down, get off my lap, walk on a leash, and a few other basics. They don't need to balance snacks on their nose, browse the internet, do tricks for my friends, or get me a beer from the fridge. They picked up all the basics just living with me, and with the help of an occasional few treats, and a lot of hugs and approval. 

I always wonder why the average person would need a trainer for the average family dog. The dog will pick up on all the basics that make it comfortable to live with them without much effort.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wm97 said:


> I take my dogs for walks, but never pack walks with dogs outside the family. It always seemed like bad results would be a given, sooner or later. Likewise with dog parks. I have had larger than average dogs so many other dogs react with instant fear.
> 
> Also, I don't want to have to rely on anyone else to control their dogs. For example, I have a friend who walks her dog in the neighborhood. She is in her 70s and the dog outweighs her by a good 40 pounds. If the dog really wants to do something, she isn't going to be able to stop him. That's not to mention the people who really don't watch how their dog is behaving. We can have perfectly good walks alone.
> 
> ...


I'd like to find a trainer who could train my dog to get a beer from my fridge, _that_ would be remarkable.


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## SFDOC (Apr 7, 2011)

Your so called "Trainer" is an idiot. Any bite within a pack walk that he is supervising is his fault, PERIOD!

I am a trainer, and at no time am I not on top of all of the dogs and their handlers. A good socialization only allows the dogs off leash AFTER they have been exercised. For my pack walks this is after they have been ran together on my bicycle and walked on leash after the ride for about 3 miles in the hills. The off leash work is their reward while also giving you a more stable dog to work with due their energy level.

His comments are idiotic, and the only part that is your fault is to keep your dog in a situation where the guy in charge is not making sure your dog is protected.

For anyone who has a facebook account, you can check out my page at Top Dawg K9 services.

I am in California, but am happy to talk to you over the phone.

I also sent you a PM.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

wm97 said:


> .....
> 
> As for training, my dogs need to know not to poop in the house, come when called, sit, lay down, get off my lap, walk on a leash, and a few other basics. They don't need to balance snacks on their nose, browse the internet, do tricks for my friends, or get me a beer from the fridge. They picked up all the basics just living with me, and with the help of an occasional few treats, and a lot of hugs and approval.
> 
> I always wonder why the average person would need a trainer for the average family dog. The dog will pick up on all the basics that make it comfortable to live with them without much effort.





I guess I am the average person and he indeed is the average family dog. Yet, he is reactive, and we have the same weight. That was the reason for the trainers to work on reactivity (he is house trained, has a good recall, can sit, go down and jump, he stays in his crate, etc). But 9 or 10 months ago, would have pulled me trying to lunge and bark at a dog. 



But you are right, stranger's dogs are not something good.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

CometDog said:


> You just described my ex's village in Co Louth Ireland that we use to visit several times a year before we went and had too many children.
> 
> Me to my ex mother in law: I think I'll take a jog
> 
> ...



That also reminds me of my city, so many "Guard" dogs free to roam around their houses or car shops in some areas of the city. For example, there are two dogs always off leash in the corner at the end of a street kind of close to my place, and half of the times they throw against my car when I drive that way. They have been hitted by cars more than once, and while they are usually friendly (except to my dog and other large dogs), they have also come after specific and random people, and throw themselves at random cars if they have a dog inside.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CAROLINM said:


> That also reminds me of my city, so many "Guard" dogs free to roam around their houses or car shops in some areas of the city. For example, there are two dogs always off leash in the corner at the end of a street kind of close to my place, and half of the times they throw against my car when I drive that way. They have been hitted by cars more than once, and while they are usually friendly (except to my dog and other large dogs), they have also come after specific and random people, and throw themselves at random cars if they have a dog inside.


Sadly not everybody views dog aggression as aggression. With the messages put out by shelters and rescues today, many actually think that dog aggression is normal dog behavior.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

I have a male GSD (age 22 mos) who can be reactive at times to both strange people and dogs. I'm working on this by taking him out to public places on leash and doing some short training (heel, sit, down, stay, come, etc) all the while on leash and with lots of treats. He gets very excited, but if I keep him focused on his tasks it helps him to not be reactive when people, cars, dogs, etc. go by. I try not to get too close, because I don't want him to have a reaction. When he does react to people he raises his hackles and makes growly barks that cause people to recoil, which only reinforces his reaction. So I try my best to avoid letting it happen. I think this is working but it takes time to build his confidence so he doesn't feel the need to react.


If your looking for good training ideas online, check out Susan Garrett. Her training is all positive and she as excellent ideas and results. She's having actually opening up slots for her training tomorrow for one day only. She generally only takes on new people once a year and the training lasts all year. I haven't actually done her program, (expensive) but I have participated in her free offering that float by occasionally and benefited greatly from the strategies. She has a Facebook Group called Free Dog Training Workshop that is free to join. 

Good luck. It sounds like you are doing a lot of good things for your pup. Hang in there.


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## William Hanson (Nov 29, 2019)

Agree, this trainer is out beyond the fence in left field. Find a trainer near you that trains using a reward system. My first GSD passed two years ago, and my new GSD in now 18 months old. I used Puppyk in the Metro DC area and am completely satisfied.


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## Carrie Reich (Nov 29, 2019)

You may not want to hear this but.... if this is the second/third time the dalmation has attacked. then consider filing charges against the owner. Sounds like she needs a wake up call. Also look for another trainer. Buy a book, look on YouTube, check with local pet stores to see if they have a training class and also with your vet to see who they recommend. If your dog already knows his commands then your already at the half way mark on training. I have trained my German Shepherd and our Rotti. You have to be able to establish that your the alpha of the pack and its easy from there. Good luck.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Carrie Reich said:


> You may not want to hear this but.... if this is the second/third time the dalmation has attacked. then consider filing charges against the owner. Sounds like she needs a wake up call. Also look for another trainer. Buy a book, look on YouTube, check with local pet stores to see if they have a training class and also with your vet to see who they recommend. If your dog already knows his commands then your already at the half way mark on training. I have trained my German Shepherd and our Rotti. You have to be able to establish that your the alpha of the pack and its easy from there. Good luck.



Thanks. Filling charges it's not something possible in such a case here in Mexico. I meant, it would take more time and money, than results. 



Regarding the looking for a different trainer, I will go and meet last person available in the following days. And in regards to the books, I am looking in Amazon, but there are just so many, some really positive, some more balanced.... Not sure what to get, but I would accept suggestions on that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You don’t need dozens of books, just one or two good ones.


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## Allisonjewel (Dec 29, 2019)

I totally understand what you are going through! Bear is now 16 months old, but when he was a puppy we would go to a park next to our house to socialize. At that point we were trying to do training on our own- BIG MISTAKE. We knew all of the dogs there and trusted all of them to play nicely with him, because we had been taking our other dog to the group for a while. However, there was a new dog that started coming more frequently. The first time he attacked Bear I brushed it off telling myself he may have just been playing too rough and Bear was being over dramatic. When it happened the second time he grabbed onto Bear and drug him on the ground. The owner stood there and did nothing. I attempted to pull the dog off him and finally got him to release. I remember Bear being so small that I picked him up and held him in my arms-he was screaming. The owner of the attacker told me I was over reacting and her dog did nothing wrong-claiming she is still learning how to play nicer. I was so angry that someone could be so unaware of aggressive behavior in their dog.

I later found out the attackers owner was friends with a lot of other people in our doggy group, so it went around that I over reacted and her dog did nothing wrong. I was absolutely outraged and never went back.

Because this was one of Bears first interactions with dogs it has scared him to this day. He is now extremely dog reactive and has to take special medication for anxiety. Once he meets a dog he is perfectly fine, but anything leading up to that is a mess. He barks, raises his hair, and growls out of fear. Once meeting he will automatically become submissive and stop all of his “aggressive” behavior.

Please take it from me that a bad training group and aggressive dog in the hands of a clueless owner is not worth an overly anxious dog and thousands of dollars in vet/training bills to help him be a normal dog again.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I often have done Large Field Socialization exercises with one of the trainers who apprenticed with the master trainer who invented the exercise in Baton Rouge. Its inventor called it "poetry in motion" for a good reason -- and I've seen it turn around MANY dog-reactive dogs. When not done well, fights and bites are as possible as at any dog park. 

With my trainer, dogs that try to bite other dogs wear muzzles during the exercise for a good long while until they pick up the pack flow and just go with it, and they all do eventually. He only allows one problem dog on the field at a time, and he's watching that dog constantly. They also get popped on the rear with a dressage whip if they try to start fights -- a warning of the whip smacking the ground first, and if they ignore the warning, they get popped on the tush.....that's how they learn not to start fights with other dogs and just co-exist peacefully. ALL of the regulars will correct any dog that starts bad behavior before it escalates -- hard stares, humping, etc. -- people who aren't okay with that are told to not to come back. People are taught not to scream and yell but just calmly correct bad behavior and keep moving. 

Nobody's allowed to be on a cell phone -- they'd get yelled at by the trainer, and other regulars. 99% of the GSDs just walk calmly off leash in the circle with their people close by, sniffing other dogs occasionally, but otherwise just peacefully co-existing. And that's all they need to be okay doing. Some of the young dogs romp and tumble in the middle of the field, and that's okay too. They're allowed to make natural choices interacting with other dogs (we want them doing that in this exercise) so long as those choices aren't nasty -- they just have to get along, whether merely tolerating or playing is their choice. It takes all the stress out of seeing strange dogs -- it becomes quite boring for dogs who are regularly on the field this way.

This exercise is an alien concept to a lot of the rigid dog training world. People who haven't seen it with their own eyes -- or what a stable pack in this environment does to transform broken dogs -- don't understand. The guy who invented it did it for 40 or so years with thousands of dogs and fixed more dog aggression than most trainers alive have even seen. A lot of dogs stayed in homes because of him. He's dead now, and a lot of trainers see the documentary about his life and may try to replicate it without understanding how much choreography went into the controlled chaos of a field of 20-30 dogs all moving peacefully around a field. Watch the movie about him on Prime Video (streams free with Prime) to see the real deal:
https://www.amazon.com/Dog-Man-****-Russell/dp/B01LTIAUY2/
It sounds like your guy doesn't quite understand the need to correct bad behavior so that it stops. Maybe try pointing out to him that D. Russell always corrected bad behavior and didn't make excuses for it.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

I'm really sorry to hear this happened. I know it is very scary to witness or be on the victim side of a aggressive dog. That was absolutely not your fault.

That trainer has something wrong in his head. So does the owner of the other dog. If you can't do anything lawfully about that Dalmatian, which should absolutely be put down or taken to a serious trainer, you need to at least stay as far out of the way of it. And yes, carry a big stick!!!! Anything: bear spray, a stick, pepper spray, something to make the dog back off. My grandma carries a can of pepper spray wherever she goes and sprays any aggressive dog that comes towards her. It works too.


If you don't set a good example for your dog, he will not want to look to you as his leader and protector. (I'm not saying you aren't by the way, I'm just making a point) You must not let that happen, or those walks and future attacks(if there are any) will be even worse, because he won't know where to go! But even if he does know where to go, which is to you, you must have a defense ready.

I know a trainer who works for a big Shutzhund place called Leerburg, and he said to always carry something heavy to knock a dog away if one happens to approach your dog. In doing that you will not only gain the respect of the other dog and lessen the chance of attacks like this, but you will gain the respect of YOUR dog, which will help matters a lot! maybe you need to turn to some of the online trainers now, because it doesn't seem like there are any reputable trainers where you are. If this was the only trainer you could find, I can't imagine what the others are like!!! Do your dog a favor and please don't ever go back to that one at all! 

Here's some pep talk, if you need any. Remember, when something bad and discouraging happens, you just need to pick yourself up out of the dust and restart. If you can do that, you will find yourself not only confident again, but now with more experience. If you can't do it, you will be scarred mentally for life, and that nervousness you show around your dog will not make him ANY better than before, and probably worse. Good luck.
Like Selzer said, you need to get your dog to interact with well-behaved dogs so he is more confident, because, just like you, he is probably very traumatized or at least nervous and reactive after those attacks.
Again, I'm sorry to hear that this happened, and good luck.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Allisonjewel said:


> I totally understand what you are going through! Bear is now 16 months old, but when he was a puppy we would go to a park next to our house to socialize. At that point we were trying to do training on our own- BIG MISTAKE. We knew all of the dogs there and trusted all of them to play nicely with him, because we had been taking our other dog to the group for a while. However, there was a new dog that started coming more frequently. The first time he attacked Bear I brushed it off telling myself he may have just been playing too rough and Bear was being over dramatic. When it happened the second time he grabbed onto Bear and drug him on the ground. The owner stood there and did nothing. I attempted to pull the dog off him and finally got him to release. I remember Bear being so small that I picked him up and held him in my arms-he was screaming. The owner of the attacker told me I was over reacting and her dog did nothing wrong-claiming she is still learning how to play nicer. I was so angry that someone could be so unaware of aggressive behavior in their dog.
> 
> I later found out the attackers owner was friends with a lot of other people in our doggy group, so it went around that I over reacted and her dog did nothing wrong. I was absolutely outraged and never went back.
> 
> ...


Wow. That's terrible. I hope your dog is okay.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

I just considered: I am in America, where I am allowed to do something like carry a defense. If that's not the case for you, ignore that comment about sticks. Good luck


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Magwart said:


> I often have done Large Field Socialization exercises with one of the trainers who apprenticed with the master trainer who invented the exercise in Baton Rouge. Its inventor called it "poetry in motion" for a good reason -- and I've seen it turn around MANY dog-reactive dogs. When not done well, fights and bites are as possible as at any dog park.
> 
> With my trainer, dogs that try to bite other dogs wear muzzles during the exercise for a good long while until they pick up the pack flow and just go with it, and they all do eventually. He only allows one problem dog on the field at a time, and he's watching that dog constantly. They also get popped on the rear with a dressage whip if they try to start fights -- a warning of the whip smacking the ground first, and if they ignore the warning, they get popped on the tush.....that's how they learn not to start fights with other dogs and just co-exist peacefully. ALL of the regulars will correct any dog that starts bad behavior before it escalates -- hard stares, humping, etc. -- people who aren't okay with that are told to not to come back. People are taught not to scream and yell but just calmly correct bad behavior and keep moving.
> 
> ...


I have read and heard a lot about Russell, that was the reason I joined this "large field socializations", they were the only place my dog could have some sort of controlled "interactions" with dogs. There were some good things for my dog through that. Yet, when I think about it, there were many things including those 2 situations with the dalmatian that were exactly the opposite of what my dog needed. 

My dog is difficult, I can not deny that, most people around us is afraid of him, they have seen him lunge and bark with his hairs on top. But I do believe that if the socializations would have taken place as described by you, things would have been really different. 

My sister tried to convince me to leave that pack walk and socializations from before, because she did not like some attitudes and comments from the trainer. But I believed we were doing it for our dog, but every time we think about it now, since we left last month, I just think I was either really stupid or really naive. 

Thanks, I will also keep looking for Russel's doc, it is not available in amazon prime in Mexico.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Kathrynil said:


> I'm really sorry to hear this happened. I know it is very scary to witness or be on the victim side of a aggressive dog. That was absolutely not your fault.
> 
> That trainer has something wrong in his head. So does the owner of the other dog. If you can't do anything lawfully about that Dalmatian, which should absolutely be put down or taken to a serious trainer, you need to at least stay as far out of the way of it. And yes, carry a big stick!!!! Anything: bear spray, a stick, pepper spray, something to make the dog back off. My grandma carries a can of pepper spray wherever she goes and sprays any aggressive dog that comes towards her. It works too.
> 
> ...


I am thinking right now about using some savings towards another trainer (last one on the list), since the one previous to this one was also a bad story I do not longer have that much faith in trainers.

Right now, we have been taking him to 'not so crowded' places, to be honest I do not feel as confident as before. Hence, we are moving towards people slowly. I do not like using the prong collar that much anymore, thus, I am looking for something else, probably a slip lead or a fur saver. Not sure yet, I am still reading and such. He has been acting braver, though, and that is a change, he has been climbing and jumping on things. Yet we had an incident he lunged/snapped at his Groomer the other day (though he had just spent the night at the Vet clinic cause he got poisoned with a a plant and was still on meds, I put him on a down position after and he remained calm around the person), but we have been walking around people this past week with no issues. Dogs on leashes and stray ones (many in Mexico) have been a case by case situation, distance has been our friend.

Going to really try to get my cousin's dog after New Year's, our dog does not hurt other dogs, he used to try to herd them, and get his space. But I am pretty sure I can use a muzzle if that helps my cousin or anyone feel more confident.

Regarding books or online training options, -that is something else I am considering-, but, I am not sure, for example there is Leerburg's website and their many on demand videos, they have one for reactivity, they have one for aggressive behavior and another for structure, and also there are other trainers with videos, I am really confused right now, about which one to pick or which one to start with. Most books I found are strictly positive, and with a 100lb dog, it is really hard to go fully positive.

Real thanks for your last paragraph by the way, outside of my dog, this has been quite a year, and considering I ended up this year with Odham the same way we finished last (with no trainer and still having issues), I feel like my decisions are a constant failure. But then again, we are not giving up with this guy, on the opposite, just looking at small improvements and that is good (he remained calm on his crate in the living room the other day while the IT guys changed the wires and some devices just next to him).


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Magwart said:


> I often have done Large Field Socialization exercises with one of the trainers who apprenticed with the master trainer who invented the exercise in Baton Rouge. Its inventor called it "poetry in motion" for a good reason -- and I've seen it turn around MANY dog-reactive dogs. When not done well, fights and bites are as possible as at any dog park.
> 
> With my trainer, dogs that try to bite other dogs wear muzzles during the exercise for a good long while until they pick up the pack flow and just go with it, and they all do eventually. He only allows one problem dog on the field at a time, and he's watching that dog constantly. They also get popped on the rear with a dressage whip if they try to start fights -- a warning of the whip smacking the ground first, and if they ignore the warning, they get popped on the tush.....that's how they learn not to start fights with other dogs and just co-exist peacefully. ALL of the regulars will correct any dog that starts bad behavior before it escalates -- hard stares, humping, etc. -- people who aren't okay with that are told to not to come back. People are taught not to scream and yell but just calmly correct bad behavior and keep moving.
> 
> ...


Magwart, Great Post, thank you for introducing me to **** Russell. Very interesting concept and I'd like to learn more about his methods. I plan to watch the documentary when I have time to concentrate on it.
For the oP, the dvd on Amazon is only $11.99- might be worth buying it to watch it.

A few comments about D. Russell's theory of integrating dogs ie "We don't teach socialization, the dogs teach it.",
hit home with me and my dog reactive rescue, Heidi. For the first few months after she came home to me, my adult son avoided taking her to public places where other dogs may be because she over-reacted like a crazy dog.
But then very slowly she was allowed to meet and greet calm, friendly, laid back dogs out on walks. Very gradually
he took her to watch other dogs at dog parks. And I mean gradually, not even going inside the fenced area.
eventually, on a quiet day with only one or a couple dogs inside the dog park, he took off her leash for a brief intro
and hopefully ok meeting. 
The first greeter was a huge female shepherd who seemed to like Heidi but very shortly knocked Heidi down and put 
her paw on top of her and held her down for a few seconds. Heidi submitted and that's all she wrote. Thereafter it
was like a switch went off in Heidi's head. OK to play but not always dominate. Mind your manners. Get along.
She learned real fast how to get along. How to play. And not to be a brat in public. That big GSD taught her in just minutes how to be better at socializing. Was fascinating to hear from my son who witnessed it.
Since then he's taken Heidi to dog parks and other public dog areas about 50 times and no more reactivity and she's
nice and friendly to all the new dogs she meets. She learned her lesson from another dog.

I'm fascinated w/ Russell's concept that most dogs today don't get the level of socialization from other dogs and they
don't get to go out and be a street dog where they meet all kinds of other dogs.
I adopted a tiny little malti-poo some years back , who had lived about half his life roaming city streets meeting all kinds of dogs and he fit in with any dog, big or small and got along with them all. He was like a Fonz- everybody's pal.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

CAROLINM said:


> I am thinking right now about using some savings towards another trainer (last one on the list), since the one previous to this one was also a bad story I do not longer have that much faith in trainers.
> 
> Right now, we have been taking him to 'not so crowded' places, to be honest I do not feel as confident as before. Hence, we are moving towards people slowly. I do not like using the prong collar that much anymore, thus, I am looking for something else, probably a slip lead or a fur saver. Not sure yet, I am still reading and such. He has been acting braver, though, and that is a change, he has been climbing and jumping on things. Yet we had an incident he lunged/snapped at his Groomer the other day (though he had just spent the night at the Vet clinic cause he got poisoned with a a plant and was still on meds, I put him on a down position after and he remained calm around the person), but we have been walking around people this past week with no issues. Dogs on leashes and stray ones (many in Mexico) have been a case by case situation, distance has been our friend.
> 
> ...


Do not go fully positive. Fully positive is for trainers and puppies. I can't go fully positive with my 5 month old, never mind a fully grown adult!
All the trainers recommended are all good. I recommend Leerburg personally, but others here like Jax08, LuvShepherds, Thecowboysgirl, and many others have hosts of others that might help even more. Just choose one. You'll probably want one to address the reactivity first, then you can move on to get structure and develop more confidence. But I'm not really the one to know.

I'm glad you like the pep talk. I learned it from my horse riding instructor, who says to just get back on the horse if you've fallen off and swallow your fears. it is a great principle, I believe, and I'm glad you could get some help from it too.

Prongs are the best! Unless your dog's fur needs saving, just use the prong collar. It is the most humane, gentle way to do it and it has worked so well on so many dogs.

I'm glad to be of some help, and to hear he's doing better. Leerburg is great! You should absolutely try them if you can. Good luck.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

I really hope things straighten out for you. I'm sure it's hard with such a large dog. I have a puppy and it's hard! Again, Good luck.


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