# Accidental Inbreeding by brother sister



## ihtsbih09

Ok. So I have a question. I am looking to purchase my first GSD and I have contacted a trainer/breeder and she doesn't have any dogs available but she has a former client of hers who bought two dogs from her male and female from the same litter and there was an accidental breeding. And that is why the puppies will be cheap. Both parent dogs are extremely healthy and come from great bloodlines. I just dont know what to do. Any thoughts?


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## Rua

ihtsbih09 said:


> Ok. So I have a question. I am looking to purchase my first GSD and I have contacted a trainer/breeder and she doesn't have any dogs available but she has a former client of hers who bought two dogs from her male and female from the same litter and there was an accidental breeding. And that is why the puppies will be cheap. Both parent dogs are extremely healthy and come from great bloodlines. I just dont know what to do. Any thoughts?


Run Away!

Seriously. 

Healthy dogs or not, I wouldn't touch that one with a barge pole.


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## Lucy Dog

I wouldn't do it if I were you, but post their pedigrees if you want some real input.


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## Castlemaid

I would not buy a pup from a brother/sister pairing, no matter how cheap.


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## ihtsbih09

She said that no other lines were crossed


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## KatsMuse

Castlemaid said:


> I would not buy a pup from a brother/sister pairing, no matter how cheap.


I have to agree with Castlemaid (Lucia) on this one. 

 Kat


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## Kyleigh

If you had a daughter and a son, would you let them have children? 

Think about what you are getting into ... it might have been an "accidental" breeding, but the "breeder" (and I use that term loosely) is being completely irresponsible by even letting it happen, and then letting the pregnancy continue. 

Just my two cents ...


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## JakodaCD OA

what does 'no other lines were crossed' mean? 
Not sure I understand that one.

and no I wouldn't want a brother/sister breeding to close for my taste.


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## Rua

Kyleigh said:


> If you had a daughter and a son, would you let them have children?
> 
> Think about what you are getting into ... it might have been an "accidental" breeding, but the "breeder" (and I use that term loosely) is being completely irresponsible by even letting it happen, and then letting the pregnancy continue.
> 
> Just my two cents ...


Yeah - even to take it a step further, I find it strange that the original trainer/breeder that the OP contacted to begin with would even direct the OP to such a pairing for purchase. I can't imagine a good breeder doing that.


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## GsdLoverr729

Rua said:


> Yeah - even to take it a step further, I find it strange that the original trainer/breeder that the OP contacted to begin with would even direct the OP to such a pairing for purchase. I can't imagine a good breeder doing that.


This. Most reputable breeders won't even sell two pups to one person (particularly litter mates and at the same time). I mean in special circumstances, with experienced owners who they trust then maybe... But definitely not to someone who would accidentally allow this inbreeding then let the female carry full-term.


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## msvette2u

You know, you can say "accidental" but unless one has never heard of the birds and the bees, there's no such thing as an accident when you have two intact adult dogs.

The fact they let this happen is appalling and enough proof they are irresponsible, they need to spay/abort ASAP unless the litter is already here; they need to spay & neuter their dogs asap afterward if they are here already. 
They need to spay/neuter all the puppies and GIVE them away for the cost of the s/n.


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## onyx'girl

Too bad they didn't spay the female as soon as the owners knew about the breeding....sad.


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## ihtsbih09

Wade vom Wayward

Above is the pedigree of the two dogs. Basically what I mean by that no other lines crossed is that the brother amd sisters parents have no similar relative. I do not know if that is common with most breeders I would assume so.


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## LoveEcho

The fact that this was allowed to happen says a enough about the owners of the dogs. The fact that this "breeder" suggested you purchase one of them says even more about the breeder. 

Run, fast, and don't look back. Learn what to look for in a reputable breeder.


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## wyominggrandma

so, the sire is barely over a year. The dam, being a full sister is barely over a year and has now carried a litter, depending on how old the litter is, she was barely a year old and was bred. No hips/elbows done of course.......... Run Run Run. 
I personally would not deal with the "breeder" who referred you to this oops litter either.


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## ihtsbih09

Ya I was thinking she was too young too. She hasnt had the pups yet but still too young. You guys are right I should run.


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## Loneforce

Wow That is terrible


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## JakodaCD OA

he's a beautiful dog and every dog/puppy deserves a good home, however, I wouldn't take one, again, to close for me.


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## Scarlettsmom

I am not looking for a puppy, but knowing even a little about genetics has me horrified. Sadly, you cannot be responsible for this pairing. Run...away...FAST. Sadly, these puppies have the deck stacked against them. If you are not a hard line gambler, you should politely back out of this game. 

How sad that this was allowed to happen AND go to term. It's a terrible sentence for the dogs involved. Even wolf packs work to avoid this...should tell us something.


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## Liesje

I wouldn't pay for one, but I'd probably take one for free. I have more issues with the age of the dogs and "accidentally" breeding than the inbreeding or the pedigree.


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## onyx'girl

I know of an 'accidental' breeding by siblings. The owners were on vacation and the female was in heat. Her adult son let the male jump fence and it happened. The vet told the owner to let them go through with the whelp(bad advice!!!) 3 pups were born, two were blues and one black. One of the blue ones was not intelligent("stupid") according to the owner. 
They kept two, gave one to a family member. They seemed healthy and fairly decent temperament when I saw them around a yr of age. I haven't kept up with the owners to know if they stayed that way, or if they still even have them. 

They had a few GSD's and they were all outside dogs. They own a junkyard nearby, dogs were junkyard dogs.


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## Doc

As a breeder I would not want one but as a pet, it's hard to pass up a free purebred.


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## onyx'girl

I wouldn't even want one then, I've dealt with enough health and temperament issues with a poorly bred one, even if she's purebred....purebred doesn't matter. The only way I'd take one is if were in a shelter with the threat of being euth'd.


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## Lucy Dog

onyx'girl said:


> I wouldn't even want one then, I've dealt with enough health and temperament issues with a poorly bred one, even if she's purebred....purebred doesn't matter. The only way I'd take one is if were in a shelter with the threat of being euth'd.


Couldn't agree more.

What's the price of a dog have to do with anything when it comes to the potential health and temperament problems of inbreeding like this? And the dogs/puppies are barely even a year old?? What does being purebred have to do with anything? I'd actually rather have an unknown mutt than an inbred dog like this, but that's just me.

Save now, pay later, I guess. Instant gratification.


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## BlackthornGSD

In general, a 1x inbreeding cross like this is somewhat less likely to create problems--or the problems you see will be obvious and will probably prevent the pup from being born alive. 

I worry more about pups from products of generations of close linebreeding and heavy inbreeding--that's when you get pups who seem healthy but end up developing all sorts of issues.

The bloodlines are good ones, although I would expect high drives and lots of intensity.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Yes - accidents happen. Nobody is perfect. I managed to go 5 years with intact males and females without a problem. It only took one moment of stupidity on my part and there was an "accidental" breeding between mother and son.

I also don't consider it irresponsible on my part that I allowed the pregnancy to go to term. I was NOT going to spay my girl - she is my foundation bitch and, in my opinion, an almost perfect specimen of her breed (Chinese Crested).

I refuse to use the Mismate shots as they can be very dangerous for the bitch.

The pups were born, spoken for within a few weeks and of the four pups, three of them are being shown in confirmation and one if turning the heads of well-known Crested breeders.


Dogs don't consider it disgusting or appalling or even WRONG to breed with their mother, sister, brother or father. There's no inset in the animal kingdom. In the wild wolves will interbreed.

It's not ideal but it's also not necessarily the end of the world.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Kyleigh said:


> If you had a daughter and a son, would you let them have children?


It is completely different with animals. There is no social stigma associated with in-breeding.

Used correctly, in-breeding can be a VERY good thing.


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## codmaster

ihtsbih09 said:


> Ok. So I have a question. I am looking to purchase my first GSD and I have contacted a trainer/breeder and she doesn't have any dogs available but she has a former client of hers who bought two dogs from her male and female from the same litter and there was an accidental breeding. And that is why the puppies will be cheap. Both parent dogs are extremely healthy and come from great bloodlines. I just dont know what to do. Any thoughts?


According to genetics - I would guess that any traits in the dogs would probably be magnified!


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## msvette2u

Liesje said:


> I wouldn't pay for one, but I'd probably take one for free. I have more issues with the age of the dogs and "accidentally" breeding than the inbreeding or the pedigree.


This exactly.

_***Post quoted had been edited by ADMIN***_


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## sparra

Liesje said:


> I wouldn't pay for one, but I'd probably take one for free. I have more issues with the age of the dogs and "accidentally" breeding than the inbreeding or the pedigree.



Agree.
One for free would be a good deal.
The whole inbreeding thing is neither here nor there really. Incest does not exist in the animal kingdom and will not "create" health issues.....but can exaggerate something that is already present.....*GOOD* and bad.


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## julie87

even if the pups turned out great I would not be comfortable with that breeder, sounds very unprofessional and if other problems arise who knows if they would be willing to resolve them..


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## GSDElsa

If it was free, maybe. The problem here is with such a close breeding you really have no idea idea what traits are going to be magnified and what ones aren't. Could work out great and all the drives and tempermenttraits that are amazing stand out. Or it could be all the weaknessesand bad things are what comes through. Too many unknowns and not worth it to save a few bucks. Breeder never should have sold a pair of puppiesto these people.


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## robk

Besides the inbreeding, its such a nice pedigree. Django is a well known local dog here. Very solid dog and a national level competitor. My guess is that the pups will probably turn out fine.


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## JakodaCD OA

I would also probably take one for free, nice pedigree, who knows how they'd turn out, would be interesting


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## arycrest

I've known very reputable breeders who have had "OOPS" litters and I've heard of people who don't know jack about dogs also having "OOPS" litters. If both were giving the puppies away or selling them at a nominal cost, I'd take one from the breeder depending on the health/temperament/conformation of the sire and dam ... and I would pass on the other.


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## carmspack

It is not ideal -- but how do you think the breed started?

Horand Grafrath (originally Hektor Linksrhein) designated founding sire was bred to Brünhild von Grafrath

Grafrath is the name under which von Stephanitz bred so this is his breeding . Look at the breeding - brother to sister who themselves are father to daughter. von der Krone is old old old practical working herding lines - Anton "SO" Eiselen , The German Shepherd


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## NancyJ

Maybe you could get the pedigree-people may have some idea of what particular problems may arise then. I would imagine it would amplify if the parents were also inbred to start with.


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## msvette2u

The breed "got started" with huge amounts of care and planning, not accidental breedings.


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## onyx'girl

jocoyn said:


> Maybe you could get the pedigree-people may have some idea of what particular problems may arise then. I would imagine it would amplify if the parents were also inbred to start with.


Pedigree was posted: Wade vom Wayward


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## wyominggrandma

The "oops" part of the breeding is not what bothers me the most. Its the fact the brother and sister have no health clearances, probably because of their age, and nobody knows what might have shown up in the next year with HD anything else. 
Oops litters do happen, even with the utmost care and protection. I had an older sister/younger brother. These were Bernese Mountain dogs. The female had come in at 6 months her first heat, 5 months later for her second heat. I always kept them apart, no issues with that. One day I noticed how full she was looking. I counted back and it had been a little over 4 months since her last heat. Hmmm... I thought to myself " could she have come in at 4 months again and actually ovulated and he bred her? I took her in for xrays and sure enough, there were two babies and she was almost full term. I was not going to abort/spay her, she was already well on her way to her Championship. She had two puppies, one was born alive, needed alot of work to keep it alive. The second one was born alive, had one missing ear, missing toes and a huge cleft palet. I had that one euthanized immediately. The other puppy by day two was showing issues, could not nurse, could not move around much, just not good. I euthanized him also, had a necropsy done and his insides were a mess, intestines/organs in the wrong places, rib cage was malformed. Both of these adults went onto their Championships, had beautiful hips, etc. Just a horrible case of genetics gone wrong.
With so many health issues with GSD, I would be more concerned with what might show up in the pups as far as genetic issues.


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## Heidigsd

My "Heidi" came from a brother/sister breeding, I didn't know that when we decided to get her. Here she is: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/loving-memory/103823-heidi-2-11-95-2-21-09-a.html

She had some health issues but was the best dog and I still miss her every day. She lived to be 14 years old :wub:

My current baby girl has health issues too so the best advise I can give you is to get health insurance for whatever puppy you decide to get 

Michaela


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## carmspack

I would see fewer problems in this accidental combination than I would expect from some -- highlight SOME - intentional high showlines which are much more concentrated on Canto (Uran) (ice berg breeders) than you would have linebreeding or back massing in this pedigree. Or for that fact on "hobby" or amateur totally open or linebred productions.

The example I gave of the founding or setting of type was because the people knew the dogs -- the quality of the dogs - and that was the missing link in this discussion . Without knowing the pedigree and what the genotype was like the question was difficult to answer.

Would I be comfortable with this combination - yes. Could there be some excellent working candidates - yes . Would I expect a lot of problems (if any) - not so much. Would I recommend this combination for a next generation -- not so much -- very close . You have to be an expert in the LINES -- Koos Hassing has used close breeding for a long time and he has a "fixed" type - but he is expert . Some of the admonishments against heavy linebreeding was as a safety precaution against less informed breeders making too much of a mess of things.


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## carmspack

last on this thema -- lab rats are virtual clones of each other -- severe and harsh culling necessary at outset - only choose those that are fit and move into the direction of your goals -- as stated before there are strains which have different applications, one is Wistar and the other the popular Sprague- Dawley .


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## Anthony8858

Not sure I would make myself crazy over it.

If you're looking for a nice pet, and the price is right... why not. As long as there aren't any health risks to be concerned about, and you're not looking to breed, I don't see a problem.

Look at the bright side.... There's always Jerry Springer. he deals with this stuff every day.


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## ihtsbih09

Wade vom Wayward is the link to the pedigrees carmstack


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## RowdyDogs

I agree that, absent any health problems when they're born of course, the age of the parents would concern me more than their close relation. Although accidental sibling matings are far from ideal, they're not the end of the world. However as others have said, genetic traits can be intensified in those close pairings (which is why linebreeding is a thing), so it is important to know what health or temperament problems you may be getting. (just for full disclosure, I'm basing this on my experiences with purebred horse breeding including sibling and parent/offspring matings, as I don't breed dogs)

My biggest hang-up in this particular situation is about the ethics of the owner of these dogs. I agree with those who said that an "oops" litter can happen even with the best management--it's unlikely if you're responsible, but one chewed-through barrier or irresponsible pet sitter or whatever is all it takes. I also don't think that it's inherently bad to let the bitch carry the puppies to term and then find good homes for them--as others have said, there may be reasons they want the dog intact, and from what I understand, abortion methods other than spay/abort are risky.

What concerns me is that you say the dogs are being offered at a discount, but not free. Even that isn't inherently a problem ("oops" puppies can still have value, after all), but I'd want to find out a lot about the owner and the circumstances of the conception before agreeing to pay. I would be concerned that, if this owner is some yahoo who doesn't manage the dogs right, paying them for the puppies may help convince them that they've hit on a great moneymaking plan.

I guess it depends a lot on how big the discount is, too. If their parents were sold for $3,000 apiece and the puppies are being offered for $2,000, I'd do a lot of research into the ethics of the people involved to make sure these are people I'm comfortable giving that kind of cash to. If the parents sold for $3,000 and the puppies are being offered for $300 in order to discourage people who can't really afford a dog or are purchasing on impulse, I'd feel a lot more comfortable assuming this is a true accident and the owner is just trying to get them a good home, if that makes any sense.


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## ihtsbih09

I was told they would be sold for under $500. I am not going to do it. I called a vet's office today and someone there said they had an inbred dog before and it was mentally not all there and was very prone to seizures


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## Anthony8858

ihtsbih09 said:


> I was told they would be sold for under $500. I am not going to do it. I called a vet's office today and someone there said they had an inbred dog before and it was mentally not all there and was very prone to seizures


Case closed. 
There are better options. ... Including a rescue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## DunRingill

ihtsbih09 said:


> I was told they would be sold for under $500. I am not going to do it. I called a vet's office today and someone there said they had an inbred dog before and it was mentally not all there and was very prone to seizures


Are you saying the person in the vet's office had an inbred dog, unrelated to these dogs, that was mentally not all there and very prone to seizures? Heck that can happen with ANY breeding, it wasn't necessarily because of inbreeding.


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## selzer

I wouldn't pay $500. I might take one for free if I was looking for a pet.

I don't see myself in the market for a pet anytime soon though.


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## Rerun

I wouldn't pay $500 for a pup from a breeding like this. A few hundred, maybe, if the parents seem to have nice temperaments as pets at least, and the pups health is kept up on (deworming, initial vaccinations, etc) and they aren't weaned at 5 or 6 weeks old. It's funny how many BYB's say they'll keep pups until they are 8 weeks old at least, but by the time they are 5 or 6 weeks and big rambunctious messy pups, suddenly it's, "Well they are eating fine on their own, and driving mom nuts, so they are ready to go!" So much litter socialization and learning comes from staying with mom and the litter (at least the litter, if not mom).

The fact that the person at the vets office told you to pass because of a dog with issues....well, that wouldn't make me trust that vet much. All dogs, even well bred ones, can have issues. It's just like with people - some of it's genetics, some of it's a crapshoot. Even the best bred dogs can have major medical problems, there are posters here that have paid thousands from a very well known reputable breeder whose dogs have issues. Some have woken up to a dead 6 month old puppy due to an unknown heart condition that couldn't have been known about just by listening to the heart at the vet, some of us have dogs with digestive disorders that require lifetime enzymes mixed with food so they can digest their food and not turn into a skeleton that can't survive, allergies that can't seem to be controlled regardless of diet and environment, and a whole host of other things.

I would not pass because of what the vet said. Honestly, what they said was ridiculous. However, I might pass based on meeting the parents and seeing how their temperament is, how they react to you in the home (they are pups themselves, they should be friendly and outgoing, not skittish and barky or "protective" - which is actually fear aggression unless you displaying threatening behavior). I wouldn't pass if they seem quiet or aloof, but as a pet dog, you really want to look for more outgoing friendly behavior from such young adults. These things ARE genetic and socialization can only help so much if they get crappy temperment from the parents.


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## carmspack

and what would you pay if you got a dog from a shelter?
seriously , I am asking.

people value what they pay for . $500 is not going to make anyone wealthy. Even the regular going rate is not going to make any one wealthy - nor should it be the goal.

$500 or under will take care of the mother's increased needs, feed the pups, get them a veterinary exam , the first set of shots, worming -- not to forget the countless hours that pups need in basic sanitation, and socialization.

There is no win . If the breeder gave the dogs away people would complain that they were cavalier and they saw no value in them - disposable -- if they charge something as a first level screening process , at least trying to do the best for them , they also are criticized. People tend to value what they pay for .


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## RowdyDogs

I wouldn't pay $500 for a pup from that litter either (but I also probably wouldn't take a free pup from that litter), I was just throwing that out there to illustrate what I was trying to say--that I'd feel more comfortable if I didn't feel like the owners were trying to make a profit on the pups. I picked the numbers kind of randomly. Just to be clear. 

OP, I think passing is the right thing to do. I don't know that I agree with your vet's reasons either, but it sounds like you have enough concerns about the situation that it's probably better to wait and find a puppy you feel comfortable with.


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## onyx'girl

I don't think the breeder should even think about 'breaking even' in an accidental breeding. They should take their losses monetarily and not expect people to pay for their 'mistake'.
I do believe very, very careful screening of potential owners and the normal breeder's protocol with first rights should happen however. 
Especially the lines that this litter comes from, they should not just place them in pet homes, but w/more experienced handlers. These pups may end up to be more than the average pet owner can deal with.


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## Rerun

I disagree that they aren't going to make money if they are charging $500 a pup.

I have not bred dogs. But for years, we were a foster home for a high kill shelter that regularly placed moms and pups with us. So I have experience raising a litter in that regard.

Generally, the mom won't have any issues. I know there are stories abounding of issues, but reality is that usually they whelp without any medical intervention needed. Especially the dogs that shouldn't be bred, it just seems that those are always the ones that have huge litters and have no issues whelping. 

Raising the litter, a few hundred in supplies and some maintenance. Group costs for vacciations isn't that much (less than the cost of one pup given OP's price estimate) and even less if the person vaccinates themselves which many will do, especially if the breeder does and is helping through the process and explains to them how to do it to save money.

Mom will eat a little extra, most people won't give supplements of any kind nor are they truely needed to raise the litter. If they do, it'll be with things at home such as eggs, cottage cheese, etc. The pups eat, sure, but if mom is feeding well and supplementing, they won't eat that much in $$. We had a few litters we had to hand raise (in a couple cases, no mom, and in another mom wasn't making milk due to her very poor condition). We actually used leerburgs formula recipe and it isn't cheap for growing pups, but still not more than a couple hundred when all is said and done with.

If she had a litter of 8, which isn't abnormal or huge by any means, that is 4 grand. They won't spend that. These dogs haven't had training, titling, any kind of out of pocket costs for showing or evaluating. They are just pets. They will certainly be making money if they are sold for $500 each and have more than a couple of pups.


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## selzer

Carmen, you ought to know that when you breed properly, and add in all the training, and the shows, and the health screening, and keeping up and coming critters, and feeding good food, and taking back dogs, and spending the time, etc, and all the other expenses for breeding properly you can break even, or not, but your profit margin is way lower than the guy who pumps out puppies for $500. 

If you have 12 bitches, and two are retired, and 3 have washed, and 3 are up and coming, and 1 missed and you had 3 litters in the course of a year, lets say 15 puppies at an average of $1500, that would be $22,500 less $1600 in health screening, $7,200 in dog food, $3,200 in veterinary expenses, $2000 in training, three stud fees, $3000, $1000 in shows/entrance fees and expenses, and registrations -- all low end guestimates, at the end of the day 4,500 between 15 puppies which is about $300 per pup profit, and that is being super generous as there are a kajilion expenses that I haven't even touched. 

But the dude that has 12 bitches, breeds them all, feeds them the cheapest dog food, doesn't do any of the niceties, well he can produce 4 times the number of puppies, sell them quicker at $500, that's $30,000 right there, take away $3000 for food, and $2,000 or less in veterinary expense, and you have $25,000 profit. Maybe he has to replace a pup here and there, but 5 pups/litter is guestimating low anyway, and some of the bitches he will breed twice in the year. $25,000/60puppies is over 400$ profit per pup. He does better than you, though you charge more. 

No I would not give $500 per pup to an oops litter -- that is all money in the bank at the end of the day. They may do it again next year.


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## selzer

And I agree that people value more what they pay for. The perpetrator of an oops litter will have to work extra hard to find the right people who will be willing to take a puppy. There are good people out there that will value a dog that they do not pay an arm and a leg for. That is what the oops-breeder needs to find. He needs to judge people very carefully because while a healthy price tag does not guaranty a good home, a lot of the less desireable homes, people who wouldn't pay for a dog to go to the vet if its sick or injured will be weeded out.


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## Capone22

I have a dog that was an accidental father daughter breeding. I am in NO WAY encouraging this but she's fantastic. We had some health issues in the beginning that were vet stressful, but I don't believe it's at all related. I think she caught some type of bacteria. Anyways, she's beautiful, full of drive, super intelligent and kicking butt in training. We are doing french ring and if I had the money I would be doin many other sports with her. She loves to work. She's also great with kids, learning to settle nicely in the house and easy to take absolutely anywhere. 

I wouldn't spend 500 on the dog your talking about but if cheap and I checked out the pups I'd be open to it for a pet. 

My parents have a mix that is not all there. That could happen to any dog. Inbreeding itself does not CAUSE retardation or health problems. As others above have said. But good luck with either decision. 


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## robk

For every one who are so quick to say they would never take an inbred dog, how do you know the dog at the shelter with a completely unknown pedigree is not inbred? At least with these dogs you know the pedigree and it is a pretty good one at that. Who knows how these pups will turn out? My guess is that they will have extreme intensity being bred so close on Django. They may make very interesting sport dogs if place in the right homes.


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## onyx'girl

Key word "*if *"placed in the right homes....and not failed by those homes. 
Shelter dogs can't really be compared to this incident, only if those pups end up at shelters. 
Extreme intensity may not be a good thing.


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## selzer

robk said:


> For every one who are so quick to say they would never take an inbred dog, how do you know the dog at the shelter with a completely unknown pedigree is not inbred? At least with these dogs you know the pedigree and it is a pretty good one at that. Who knows how these pups will turn out? My guess is that they will have extreme intensity being bred so close on Django. They may make very interesting sport dogs if place in the right homes.


For me it is more the paying money for seriously irresponsible breeding. Some people do a test litter, 1-2, and that would really depend on the experience of the breeder on whether or not I would want to participate in that. But the instant someone said it was done by accident, no money is going to change hands. People who own intact dogs have an obligation to be careful with them. Accidents may happen, but they should not profit off of those accidents, no way, no how. 

Rescues and shelters are cleaning up the messes that irresponsible people make when they get a dog without thinking, when they dump a dog, when they dump a litter of puppies. No, you cannot guaranty that your unknown rescue dog is not inbred, but you aren't encouraging more irresponsibility by rewarding it. 

If someone doesn't protect their bitch so that an unwanted pregnancy does not happen, then all of the expenses of whelping, vetting, raising the puppies, and placing them in homes is a good penalty for not being careful enough. Next time they have an intact animal, they will be more careful, or they will take steps to ensure they do not have an intact animal, because it costed a lot of money and took a lot of time. If they make $500/pup times 8 pups, that is $4k, after extra food and vetting, probably well over 3K in the bank. That is not a deterrant. I wouldn't participate in encouraging any type of oops litter, even if sire and dam were not related. 

Too many people think that saying oops give them a free pass. No one need judge them for breeding because it is and accident and dogs will be dogs, no one is perfect. Some of those people very much wanted to have puppies, and were perfectly happy to have them now, even though the bitch is not old enough or other hoops have not been jumped. If someone simply does not want to take the beating that the breeder-haters will give to anyone who deliberately breeds dogs, and says oops, than I don't want to deal with them either. There is nothing wrong with breeding if it is done with thought and responsibility for the animals used and the animals produced. Hiding behind an oops kind of gives me a bad taste in my mouth.


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## carmspack

this would concern me ". Group costs for vacciations isn't that much (less than the cost of one pup given OP's price estimate) and even less if the person vaccinates themselves which many will do, especially if the breeder does and is helping through the process and explains to them how to do it to save money"

you were an accident so you aren't worth proper care -


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## carmspack

and the breeder could have "dumped" the litter to a broker, pet shop seller - puppy mill -- fudged the sires information -- so many things .

Instead they owned up to an accidental mating . Were honest in the representation. Fed and cared for , hopefully will have the pups checked out by a vet , advertised to find homes . 

I am not saying this breeding should be done -- but it was .


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## gagsd

My vet doesn't give any "group" discounts. $44 new puppy exam, around $50 for a health certificate if going out of state, then add in vaccination, fecal, deworming, microchip and registration. Yowza.... Well over a hundred a puppy.


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## GsdLoverr729

The office I work at discounts litters. New puppy exam is free. Vaccination, deworming, fecal and microchip/registration are all discounted by 20% as a "multi-pet discount." 
So I would guess it just depends on the office.


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## msvette2u

> People who own intact dogs have an obligation to be careful with them. Accidents may happen, but they should not profit off of those accidents, no way, no how.


:thumbup: This needs to be a sticky. 



> Rescues and shelters are cleaning up the messes that irresponsible people make when they get a dog without thinking, when they dump a dog, when they dump a litter of puppies. No, you cannot guaranty that your unknown rescue dog is not inbred, but you aren't encouraging more irresponsibility by rewarding it.


So many just never realize the consequences of their actions.


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## carmspack

If it is truly accidental I would rather give them some assistance for the better treatment of the dogs so that they don't end up in a box at the side of a road waiting to be spotted and turned in to the local shelter .
There has to be some safety net for peoples mistakes.
The pups don't need to suffer or be denied . 
How many people have bought dogs for as much , with not good pedigrees, untested for generations, not well cared for , not socialized for as much $$ -- because they wanted to get a "cheap" dog or they felt the pups were in such poor environment they wanted to rescue them . Those people, the back yard breeders , have every intention of doing this again and again . I don't think that is the intention of the owners of this accidental litter. It is a one - of . Hopefully they will find GOOD homes , maybe even sport or working - but non-breeding and the dogs will live long and appreciated , lives , and hopefully the "breeder" will continue to have interest in the welfare of the pups and have some avenue of communication with the new owners - health guarantees ? maybe feedback on hips. In any case the close breeding will reveal lots of information on the genotype of the sire and dam , brother-sister. If it is bad it will likely express itself and then that can be used in decision making on how best to breed , with intentions, the next time !


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## onyx'girl

> In any case the close breeding will reveal lots of information on the genotype of the sire and dam , brother-sister. If it is bad it will likely express itself and then that can be used in decision making on how best to breed , with intentions, the next time


Test litter?


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## msvette2u

> If it is truly accidental I would rather give them some assistance for the better treatment of the dogs so that they don't end up in a box at the side of a road waiting to be spotted and turned in to the local shelter.


At $500 per, I doubt they'll be abandoned. Plus, why should the OP feel obligated to take a puppy that may well exhibit some serious issues soon or down the road, due to the inbreeding? Sure it may not, but it certainly may as well.


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## selzer

My vet charges one exam fee and then the wormer and vaccinations x however many puppies are in the litter. Otherwise a litter of ten would be $750. That is insane. 

Carmen, the problem is at the end of the day, the breeders of this pair will spend X on the litter before getting any return. It is not until the puppies are 7-8 weeks old when they realize, darn, no one wants to pay $500 each for our mistake. Now we will have to go down in price, pretty much to nil. Fine. Yes, they did not abandon them on the side of the road. 

But if these people who have the money to take the pups to the vet and provide the extra food to the bitch, and whatever supplies -- kiddie pool x-pen < $500 probably all told, and then start racking in $500 per puppy, and they find the puppies don't come out with two heads or five legs, it is very possible that the people will do it again. You think not this time, why? Are they people you know? Is it because they have working lines of some well known dogs? Why do you think that these people won't try it again, if they come out ahead? Chances are, they will if they find the buyers and sell the puppies close to 8 weeks old. If they do not get much and it takes the six months to home them all, they may get someone altered. .


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## selzer

Crappy people will abandon puppies if they aren't getting paid. 

Decent people will do what they should, and just not be rewarded. 

I mean if I run a red light and cause an accident and stick around and take the blame, I don't get rewarded for doing the right thing, I still get a ticket, my insurance still gets pinged. If I run, I get caught and am in a lot worse trouble. But staying there doesn't make me a hero. 

No way do you want to give the crappy person who would've dumped the puppies money. The pups would be better off in rescue than with a crappy yayhoo like that.


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## Dainerra

I find it odd that, at other times, a price of "only" $500 is a warning of a bad breeder because it is too cheap. That the breeder isn't going to be doing enough to weed out bad buyers by charging such a bargain basement price. Shoot, here, even BYB pups out of nothing but pet lines start at over $400. Some of them don't even LOOK like GSDs. Right now, we have a litter of mixed breeds that is being sold for $175 a pup and, yes, people are buying them because they are cute. (Actually it was over Christmas and they sold out in only a couple days) In some places, the city pound charges a couple hundred for a puppy.
In this situation, however, $500 is suddenly a HUGE amount of money and way too expensive?

I guess that I'm not getting the double standard.


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## GSDElsa

Oops litter between a brother and a sister that are only 1 year old? Yes too much. $100 rehoming fee maybe but yes $500 is just looking to make some $ off an accident. Yes they are being honest but it doesn't mean that the op needs to pay it. 

Even if it was $100 or free looking at the pedigree it might not be a good idea. "intense working dog" probably isn't something a first time gsd owner needs to experiment with. Hopefully they can find some good sport homes that might be willing to take a dog for free that could handle any extreme phenotypes that crop up.


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## carmspack

Dainerra gets it.

I think there is a moral repugnance here because the sire and dam are brother sister.

what would be said if the accidental breeding had been to two quality outcross GSD ? 

In an earlier post I said at least the people owned up to the mistake and did not misrepresent the dogs ancestry with fudged papers.

The SV itself needed cleaning up , think back to the controversy surrounding Cello v d Romerau who is listed by Natz Hasenborn and out of Quana Arminius .

However, it is widely thought that the actual sire was not Natz but the full brother to Quana , Quando Arminius . That makes that breeding the same , an incest , brother sister breeding as the accidental litter .

Cello is the reason that DNA testing was brought in to verify parentage.

Then you have Cello many times back massed on showline dogs - Erasmus Noort , etc.

Used to have access to a person who was brilliant with figuring out inbreeding co-efficients . I would hazzard a guess that show lines have a greater ratio then the litter discussed ?? mathy people?

more later - got things to do


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I don't think there is an ick factor or morality issue. 

I think there is the idea of hmmm....we know that this isn't a good idea in general, in people or animals, and IF ONLY "breeders" and buyers understood the genetics of what they were doing/getting with the backmassing you mention! 

But 2 wrongs don't make a right, the puppies are here, and could be sold for $500 with $300 returned upon certification of spay or neuter. Which would require, yes, some bookkeeping and follow up, and saving out that $300.


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## onyx'girl

1. the parents are puppies themselves, probably the females second heat.
2. It isn't that $500 is waay too expensive or double standard. If they were charging $200, does it matter? 
It is about the pups well-being, and careful placement.

They could sell these pups on ebay classifieds in one day for those prices(and people wouldn't care about parentage or pedigree, I'm sure), cute puppy photo's always sell, and people who don't do research will buy from internet classifieds, happens all the time. 

It's the fact that this particular litter should be placed carefully and the breeder should be responsible for the pups if the new owners can't deal with the 'intense' drive or possible health issue that may crop up.


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## msvette2u

GSDElsa said:


> Oops litter between a brother and a sister that are only 1 year old? Yes too much. $100 rehoming fee maybe but yes *$500 is just looking to make some $ off an accident. Yes they are being honest but it doesn't mean that the op needs to pay it. *
> 
> Even if it was $100 or free looking at the pedigree it might not be a good idea. "intense working dog" probably isn't something a first time gsd owner needs to experiment with. *Hopefully they can find some good sport homes that might be willing to take a dog for free that could handle any extreme phenotypes that crop up.*


With this, I agree!



> I don't think there is an ick factor or morality issue.


Not at all. 
Here in the rescue we had Doxie puppies, one who perished the day after we got them in (he was sick when they brought them the night before) we placed quite easily and they were the result of a brother-sister breeding. The two that lived are doing quite well, actually. Their color is "off" but they are beautiful and healthy despite the inbreeding. I do think brother died due to a congenital issue due to the inbreeding however.


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## RowdyDogs

Dainerra said:


> I find it odd that, at other times, a price of "only" $500 is a warning of a bad breeder because it is too cheap. That the breeder isn't going to be doing enough to weed out bad buyers by charging such a bargain basement price. Shoot, here, even BYB pups out of nothing but pet lines start at over $400. Some of them don't even LOOK like GSDs. Right now, we have a litter of mixed breeds that is being sold for $175 a pup and, yes, people are buying them because they are cute. (Actually it was over Christmas and they sold out in only a couple days) In some places, the city pound charges a couple hundred for a puppy.
> In this situation, however, $500 is suddenly a HUGE amount of money and way too expensive?
> 
> I guess that I'm not getting the double standard.


I don't see my view as a double standard. I wouldn't expect a breeder who has a quality "oops" litter (say, two adults they would consider breeding together anyway get together unplanned) to charge any less than the value of the pups.

For me, a bigger issue is the immaturity of the mother. As I said I'm not a dog breeder, but in horses I have worked with the offspring of too-young mothers and often they are stunted and not good performance animals. When the mother's body is still growing, it's hard for the developing fetus to get the resources it needs, even with top-notch care. All of the good horse breeders I know will abort an accidental pregnancy in an immature mare (even if she's physically capable of carrying it to term without significant danger to herself) for this reason--but abortion also seems to be easier in mares than in bitches. In addition, due to their ages these dogs don't have any testing done regarding dysplasia and other health issues if I understand correctly. Taking a puppy is a big gamble in that case.

So I would have major reservations with buying one of these pups as a working dog. However, it also seems like their breeding makes it likely that they will be too intense for a casual pet. To me, that isn't a dog with much value. If the bitch was older, my answer might be different.

And since I was the one who brought up the $500 and relative prices, I do just want to be really clear...I didn't say I _wouldn't_ pay full price for an accidental litter, even a brother-sister one. I would just feel the need to do a _lot_ more research into the breeder and owner in order to make sure this was someone I felt comfortable giving money to. My stance on that issue has less to do with the dogs themselves, and more to do with the fact that I want to be sure I'm not supporting a pattern of irresponsible breeding.


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## selzer

If it was an outcross, and the breeder said oops, I still wouldn't buy from them, not for $500. A breeder should be more careful, and not hide behind oopses when breeding a bitch who is young or otherwise shouldn't be bred. 

If this was a mature bitch and dog and the breeder had all the ducks lined up and whoops! the son left them play out in the yard together, the breeder should just whelp and raise and sell the pups as normal. 

But there may not be an ick factor, but selling to the general public that may not realize how much line breeding some well-bred dogs have, and even if it is there, in their 3-4 generation pedigree, they really don't see it there, not like they would in a brother-sister cross. So, I think a lot of people would be a lot more wary of this litter and not want to pay even $500. I think it is rightfully so, but for different reasons: the breeder was irresponsible, the bitch was too young, and if they make a bunch of money and sell them quick, they might just go ahead and do it again.


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## APBTLove

Okay.. Dogs aren't people, so lets take the "EWww would you let your kids breed?" Bull somewhere else. 


Inbreeding and linebreeding are fine, when done by someone who really understands genetics and their line of dogs. A professional. 

These dogs are a 'crapshoot'. It was an unintentional direct inbreeding of a PUPPY, so health and final temperament of the dam can't even be known. I think asking anything for them is asking too much. These people need to own up to the fact THEY made a big mistake and learn from it, maybe charge enough to cover the cost of the vet care (shots, checkups) for the puppies, with a spay/neuter contract on the adoptive owner to pay when the pup is old enough. 

But that's just my opinion.


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## RowdyDogs

selzer said:


> ...breeding a bitch who is young or otherwise shouldn't be bred...


I think this is the crux of the issue. The bitch in the situation the OP describes is too young to be bred. It doesn't even matter who the sire is; she shouldn't be bred and there's a reason for that, and the puppies may suffer for it in ways that aren't immediately obvious (again, going back to horses...foals from too-young mothers don't necessarily look stunted in their first few years of life, but their performance as adults is consistently lacking).

This bitch shouldn't have been bred. It's further complicated by the fact that the sire shouldn't be bred due to a lack of health testing, and he is also unproven even with more suitable bitches. There's also some speculative evidence that too-young sperm is prone to defects as well, just as the sperm of elderly males is...both genders have their prime, after all.

I think every "oops" litter has to be evaluated individually. I also think this particular one as presented by the OP is kind of sketchy and I'm glad the OP has decided to look for a more reliable breeder.


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## mperillo

*Everyone and anyone*

I bought a shepherd from a breeder 18 months ago. The dogs were the result of an accidental breeding of brother and half-sister. The price was right and the puppy seemed balanced. The parents were very balanced. unfortunately, the dog developed rampant fear based aggression beginning at 4 months and maxing out at two years of age. I had to put him down this morning. I don't know whether the inbreeding played a role but the dog was off the scale unbalanced around anyone not part of his family. A year of Socialization never helped him. IF YOU HEAR THE WORDS ACCIDENTAL BREEDING OR CLOSE MATCH RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION! Do not wind up with two children who think you are a monster because you had to put down their dog. STAY AWAY


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## NancyJ

This is a reply to a 7 month old thread.


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