# What is Exceptional?



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have in my mind what I want in a dog and how much I want. Drive, nerve, health, hardness etc. I have seen a few dogs which I consider ideal.

I assume an exceptional dog to be capable of Sport and LE applications. Not only capable but also podium quality.

What recently caused me to think more on this was a discussion between trainers of different sports as well as my own experience and observations. 
Notably, KNPV, Belgian Ring, FR and IPO were represented in this discussion. 

They talking about taking dogs from other lines and using them in their sport of choice. Example KNPV bred dog to use in BR. 
FR line dog to use in IPO, etc.

It was noted that different aspects of the sports would often stop these dogs from being "top". 
Example the BR trainer tried a well bred KNPV dog. She found there to be lots of drive, independance, fight but when it came time to demand control and accuracy in the work the dog began to melt. His bite and entries suffered and he lost power in the work. BR requires numerous exercises back to back under control. 

In the end she sold him to a PD were he did well. 

There were numerous similar observations from other trainers. Dogs that could do well in LE applications like the KNPV dogs but not so well in sport, and vice versa. 


Undoubtedly there are some dogs that have an aptitude for competition obedience. They have a desire to work with the handler, they can handle repitition, they can take handler pressure and stay in drive.

With these dogs it is easy achieve precision as well as control. However, many of these dogs lack in bitework. Its all just a game, they do not have the nerve strength to fight for real. Or even if they do they just dont have the mindset.

In IPO (my sport of choice) we need the dog to always show precision, eagerness and drive in the OB. When you start to layer this into the bitework with some dogs you begin to lose the bite and the aggression/fight begins to falter. 
In many cases you are faced with the option to either demand 100% correct completion of exercises or to let some things slide in favor of maintaining the drive and eagerness. Its a never ending ballancing act.

Dogs preforming in LE applications require control, the drive to detect/search and the nerve to fight a man in various environments. Such a dog however may falter under the demands of an IPO obedience routine. The pressure necessary for him to be precise and exact in the exercises may inhibit the fight he is able to bring.


In many sports what are termed average dogs are able to achieve great success as long as they have the ability to handle the precise and repetitive OB routine. Protection becomes an extension of that routine for them.


*The intitial response I had to this question is the dog that can do it all! Remain precise and in drive during OB and able to bring the fight to the helper.*

Then I began to think about some of the famous studs that have and are being used. Dogs noted for their lack of ability to achieve the podium because they were too *extreme*. 
Usually what it comes down too was the dog could not be brought under the control necessary to achieve podium. Title yes, podium no. 

One can assume that if the handler really pushed to get that control either the dogs expression would have suffered or the handler would have got bit (which in many cases did happen). Biting the handler if anything enhanced the dogs reputation in many cases.

Obviously some top LE dogs would never achieve the podium in IPO and many top IPO dogs would never be exceptional LE dogs. Same for ring sports, KNPV etc.

So that still leaves us with whats exceptional?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> So that still leaves us with whats exceptional?


Exceptional is in the eyes of the beholder, so it depends entirely on what your ideal is. What is exceptional to one person might be undesirable to the next. Unfortunately there will never be a standard for what an exceptional dog, since it is such a subjective thing. I am not saying anything you don't already know, of course... just sharing my raw thoughts.

I always love to hear what everyone's ideal is, I ask that question often when I train with someone. So many different, complex answers. To each their own.

Exceptional to me is the balanced, biddable, stable, clear headed dog that can bring power and appropriate aggression with the nerve strength to support it. Versatility. I like a dog that can be a stable family pet than take high in trial in IPO on the weekend, or go to work as a detection dog or something.

I personally don't like extremes. I know what I can and cannot handle in a dog, and I have no trouble admitting that or accepting that.

My idea of exceptional, as of today, based on what I know? I think Athos von den Wannaer Höhen is an exceptional dog. 

Hopefully I answered this the way you intended. Haha.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sorry I'm going to dodge the question for a minute, but what do you mean by dogs that can't reach the podium because they were too extreme? It seems to me the opposite is true, the dogs sometimes on the podium are the ones that tend to be more extreme in one way or another.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

provide pedigrees of dogs excelling in these disciplines .
show me the top knpv , the top mondio ring /Belgian ring
top ipo 

Dreschler Warnautal , (Helmut Raiser) 6 x's V at BSP

Enno Antrefftal (Fritz Bieler) 
Drigon Fuhrmannshof (Fritz Bieler) 
one handler , dogs are father and son , each had 299 at BSP . 
Enno son - Falk Eichendorfschule - BSP 298

maybe study some pedigrees


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

An exceptional dog to me,'
One that is not a nerve bag- lord i am tired of nerve bags-


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

An exceptional dog to me would definitely not be the one that is "too extreme" to reach podium because it will bite it handler while trying to maintain control. Thats the last kind of dog I feel any need to accomplish anything with.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

blitz posted HIS idea of exceptionalism. People don't have to agree. How about posting your ideal? 

ADMIN


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I consider both my adult Shepherds exceptional - just in different ways.

My female - you can teach her something in 3 attempts (I am sure good timing and marking plays a role here) and she will remember it forever, even if we don't do it again for an entire year, she will still remember. She also has a "performers" side to her and LOVES an audience and will feed off the applause and noise from a crowd. The level of intellegence exhibited by this dog, is just absolutely exceptional.

She is also the most intuitive dog I have ever owned - she assesses situations quickly and reacts appropriately. For example, she and my son are playing "tug". Mainly he drags a rag around, she "chases", holds the rag and follows him around holding the rag but never takes it from him(he was 6 when this situation happened.). Friendly, but rambunctious and no manners, Labradoodle decides he wants to play too (not my dog), but instead of grabbing the rag, grabs the arm of my sons jacket. Before I could even get a firm "No", out of my mouth, Ironhide has swooped between the Labradoodle and my son, taking the dog off his sleeve and herding him away from my kid. She got him distracted with playing with another dog before returning to "check" on my son.

Gladiator is also exceptional with kids. He is gentle, never jumps on them, and if they make physical contact he melts into their touch.

His ability to track, his power in protection and his sensitivity to the handler are, to me, what make him exceptional. I can ALWAYS trust this dog on a track, he will never steer me wrong. His tracking is full of drive and flash, and he can honestly probably find a needle in a haystack LOL

Full, crushing grips during protection and he WILL NOT release until commanded to do so. Such a clear head throughout, and the intensity in his eyes (I have been told) tends to make inexperience people uneasy.

This dog would follow me to the ends of the earth - his dedication to me is absolutely astonoshing! I can honestly ask this dog to things he has never even attempted and we always do great because he follows me unquestioningly. 

Both dogs are stable, friendly, confident, discerning, can be brought into any situation type dogs. As Wild Wolf said. Versatility. To me that is exceptional and absolutely the essense of the GSD, IMO.

I have a son from their litter that I have held back that shows me everyday the amazing qualities he has had passed onto him. I am so excited about working this new boy!

I definitely - exceptional is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

You can have a dog that is exceptional in it's work, but fails to pass it on. In that case, it's just a fluke.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Exceptional in dog terms would be to achieve or exceed the goals. By that rationale I have 2 exceptional dogs, one has achieved/exceeded goals and other one is well on his way. Both bite "real life" as well as equipment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ I like both of the last two above definitions, though very different. I'd have to think on which I agree with more, but like both perspectives.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Okay, this is fascinating to me...so here comes a novel of questions...

I don't think blitz is asking a subjective, "my dog is exceptional, because he's mine and I love him." I think he's trying to get an objective opinion on what is "exceptional." In human beings this may be based on IQ, successfulness, power, etc...While some think an exceptional human is simply one that is kind, caring, and compassionate. There seem to be several extremes of "exceptional" in all scenarios.

I guess if I had to try and remain as objective as possible (which is ironically quite impossible), I'd say nerve strength is my number one sign of "exceptionalism." I've often wondered where the line is between proper "suspicion" and nerve. I think nerve is where suspicion comes from? And a balance of strength in other areas maybe keeps that nerve in check? The opposite of nerviness is dullness, which is equally negative in my opinion. 

Anyway, nerve strength is the first thing I look for. Then a balance of prey/defense and good hunt drive (dog doesn't give up easily). I want a dog that can cleanly switch from prey to defense. I don't like a dog that chooses all defense, and I don't like a dog that chooses all prey (I often need help from other experienced bitework people to help see this, but I'm getting better myself).

I agree with Gatordog about the handler hard dog (I term this as a dog that will blow off it's handler in the need for independence to one that is willing to go up the leash, others may term this differently). I have never understood why handlers want a dog that doesn't want to work with them, yet has the ability to go and be independent in a fight (a fine balance that I see people constantly trying to find in bitework).

Blitz, this is a very interesting topic. I've often wondered about people that claim the dog is "too over the top" for IPO and would be better suited for LE/Military. Or the dog that is effected greatly by obedience. I think an "exceptional" dog, would be one that doesn't shut down from the pressure of control, who's enthusiasm and performance in bitework stays the same, even when control is introduced. 

I often wonder WHAT it is about the dog that loses a lot of their "umph" and "impressiveness", when control is demanded. I've heard some say it's the "repetitiveness" of the exercise. But then my next question is, "well how is their hunt drive?" I think hunt drive involves having the drive to keep searching, possibly the same area, for quite some time...which in and of itself is repetitive (and boring). So how can a dog with good hunt drive (which would involve some repetitive/boring scenarios over extended periods of time), loose oomph in obedience because it's "boring." I'd think in reality the inability to perform under obedience (or a loss of performance) would come from a place of "inability to handle pressure" (in the scenario where the dog is strong in other areas that involve repetitiveness).

I think an EXCEPTIONAL dog, wouldn't lose that "umph."

This is next part is geared for those that work in military/LE. I am going north again to see some green dogs from the netherlands get prepared for LE. It's the first "Washout" phase (after the tests for hunt drive). Most of these dogs (at least in the past), have been GSD's and mali/gsd mixes with a mali thrown in every now and then (they are trending away from the mali around these parts). 

The owner of the academy wants hard, thinking dogs, that still bring the fight, owner doesn't like hectic-ness. They are not only very picky in their own dogs, but they also travel around departments in Cali and test dogs. Some are washed, even though they've been on the street for awhile. I am always surprised how many dogs on the street, aren't very hard, and (at least according to this person that goes in and tests them), aren't impressive.

I also trained recently with a group of k9's local to me. They were all GSDs, and I was surprised at some of the issues they have (they are all working the streets). One LICKED the person it found and play bowed, another was spooked by a door slamming shut when they saw the bad guy (the door open and slammed a few times and dog boogy barked and took a bit to engage). 

Now...these are supposed to be hard, LE, K9's. I just wasn't so impressed with some of them. So, Cliff and others in LE. Is my observation rare? Are there really a lot of great police k9's out there? Because, from what I've seen over the last year of working amongst them, is that just like the sport world...there are those that are "helped" through the program and aren't too great. And there are the precious few that are "exceptional."

Anywho, if anyone takes the time to read all this...I'd love to hear other thoughts.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

"Some of you, especially those talking from read and statistics, don't understand that a good seeing eye dog, or good military dog, or good LE dog or good herding dog is one that the end results in terms of " mission" justifies the value. Not the quantitative numbers or standards that people who have no actual experience must rely on to wrap their mind around the quality. All LE dogs don't have to bite super hard, or have schutzhund obedience, or track with footprint precision to be valuable and effective. But if that is your point of reference for judgement, it is easy to use that as artificial standard."

I just found this from Cliff in another thread, and it helped me work some things out in my mind lol. Cliff can correct me if I am drawing the wrong conclusions. 

The end justifies the means. Perfection is kind of a moot point on the streets, as long as the mission is accomplished. The dogs I spoke of that I trained with (not the academy dogs, but the ones working the streets that were local), may have had some weaknesses in some areas, but they aren't enough to cancel out the qualities of the dog that complete the mission (finding the drugs, bad guy, etc). So even if the dog shuts down under precise obedience, it doesn't matter. Because precise obedience isn't required in LE/military as long as the dog listens. It has the ability to fight and hunt, with balanced nerve for everyday life, so the obedience thing is, again, moot.

Anyway, that makes me see training and LE dogs through a little different light. Maybe I'm still wrong though, lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you always have to consider the fine-tuning of this intelligent breed .
Even in the earliest journals , even in Von Stephanitz' writing there is the comment about the breed being sensitive to handler . This was quickly followed with careful wording about sensitive NOT being shy and NOT being nervous . Karl Fuller , Kirschental , said the same things of his famous herding dogs -- they were sensitive of him , but would have tremendous authority with the herd and recalcitrant sheep (rams) , and with unwanted intruders. 
This affects how you socialize and how you raise into adult hood .
The examples I gave , Enno, Drigon , etc , were level in points straight across the board . No diminished obedience . No diminished protection. These were the days before much trickery in training , which says something of the dogs . I also know that Biehler and Fuller basically said to let the dog "be" , let them be apprentices , let them mature , and then when they are formed - then you train them.
Now everyone is rush rush .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Sorry I'm going to dodge the question for a minute, but what do you mean by dogs that can't reach the podium because they were too extreme? It seems to me the opposite is true, the dogs sometimes on the podium are the ones that tend to be more extreme in one way or another.


Im talking about the dogs that have excessive drive and also the dominance/hardness that makes achieving the perfection necessary for the podium next to impossible.

Admittedly some of these dogs go through some handlers and do end up in hands that take them to top levels.

I dont think most of the dogs in the FCI or WUSV are extreme. Huber's Hank for instance is not my idea of extreme. Nor is the pup I see around here from him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gotcha, thanks. I was picturing a different type of "extreme".


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

lhczth said:


> blitz posted HIS idea of exceptionalism. People don't have to agree. How about posting your ideal?
> 
> ADMIN


I am going against the single-sport-focused grain. 

My idea of an exceptional dog is what I would refer to as the Total Dog. To me, a single-sport dog is too focused to be a Total Dog. By "single-sport dog" I mean the type outlined by Blitz--a dog with the genetics to take an IPO 3 podium. 

I would prefer a dog that has more balance. One that can do OB, agility, endurance, tracking, therapy, dock diving, flyball, frisbee, and anything else I ask him to do while being a friendly, loyal companion with solid nerves and high intelligence. The ability to throw those qualities into a next generation would be a big plus but I'm not a breeder so this doesn't matter to me as much as it does to others.

I would not expect the Total Dog to win in all or even any of these events. My ideal is a jack of all trades and master of none. One that can hang in all activities but not be expected to be the best at any one activity.

I know what some will say--that their sport dog can do it all. I've seen dogs move into other events once they title in IPO. That's great but can they do everything equally well? If so, please PM me with your breeder contact info.

Please don't misunderstand me. I very much like sport dogs and am not bashing them whatsoever. This is just my humble opinion. The old expression "different horses for different courses" comes to mind. I want a more all-around horse knowing that he won't take the ribbon for the 1/4 mile.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think an exceptional dog will have the drive to look happy and animated in obedience (in any sport/phase) and will be able to take corrections respectfully, but without shutting down (ie. Having enough drive to bring them through a correction while also not blowing off the correction entirely or coming back at the handler). They should be generally biddable. I think they should still have fight in them without sacrificing control, because I see no reason to have to sacrifice one without the other. I think they should have impressive hunt drive in order to consistently put up high scores on IPO tracking, which we all know requires more obedience to the track than anything, although without sufficient hunt, the obedience to the track won't hold up either. 

And I think you'd be surprised by the dogs on FCI or WUSV teams. Maybe it's the level of training that works with the amount of drive in these dogs to make them appear less out of control than the "extreme" dogs that everyone always thinks are stronger or better.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Danni is correct. Some people love their dog which is great but its more of a subjective question. 
Ofcourse within that there is wiggle room. As Gatordog says some handlers wont touch a handler aggressive dog. Others actually like it. 

BY the way just to give some examples of what I consider exceptional.

https://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2155350-angsbackens-rosso

https://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=613532-zico-von-der-adelegg


This guy gets special mention as I now know of two sons that had similar drive levels and also handler aggression stemming from extreme dominance and possessive behavior.
He is one of those that is not a podium dog. 
https://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=557457-gucci-van-esblokhof

The one son in this area would likely be a podium dog with the right handler.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I think an exceptional dog will have the drive to look happy and animated in obedience (in any sport/phase) and will be able to take corrections respectfully, but without shutting down (ie. Having enough drive to bring them through a correction while also not blowing off the correction entirely or coming back at the handler). They should be generally biddable. I think they should still have fight in them without sacrificing control, because I see no reason to have to sacrifice one without the other. I think they should have impressive hunt drive in order to consistently put up high scores on IPO tracking, which we all know requires more obedience to the track than anything, although without sufficient hunt, the obedience to the track won't hold up either.
> 
> And I think you'd be surprised by the dogs on FCI or WUSV teams. Maybe it's the level of training that works with the amount of drive in these dogs to make them appear less out of control than the "extreme" dogs that everyone always thinks are stronger or better.


Gator just going by dogs that I personally know. Also, Im not just talking extreme prey which I think many of those dogs do have.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think Andy Maly Vah was an exceptional dog. He wasn't bred enough, though his progeny carried on his traits. I have a son from him, and he could have gone far with the right handler.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

This brings to mind also some dogs in the USA currently that are big name studs and have achieved nothing podium wise.

Drago vom Patriot (seems to produce well)

Bomber vom wolfshiem (havent seen one dog from him I like yet)

Terror von der statmacht (seems to produce well)

Are these dogs exceptional? I havent seen vid of any that would suggest it yet obviously enough people believe they are and pay the stud fee.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

This dog is in the ped of my new pup. Not a podium dog but found in many peds. Grandfather.
Seems to produce well too.

https://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=598600-carly-policiaslovakia


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

definitely agree with Andy Maly Vah


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think most if not all dogs are a product of their handlers/trainers. It's the handler and trainer that can take a great dog and make it exceptional. A podium dog isn't made by a breeder, it's taught to do things a certain way. And I know that the raw material is probably 90% of the puzzle, but it's that other 10% that is brought in by a handler which can truly put the dog over the top.

So if you're talking working K9, the focus is way different than an IPO dog. And I'm sure that if you already have a great dog genetically, depending on the focus of the handler, the dog can be either a K9 or an amazing IPO dog.

This is why the whole "all around dog" doesn't work. There's not enough time in the day to train countless venues and achieve anything worth of value in all of them, to really make a statement about said dog.

I just think of it this way...IPO wants power, even in the obedience, they like to see a lot of speed and power. So if the dog nicks the handler a bit, there mignt not be a point deduction. But if the dog has a "walking recall" there will be. Where as in AKC obedience, it's the opposite. Too much power and sloppyness will lose you points. And it would take a **** of a dog that can switch between types of obedience depending on the venue...

You can do these types of comparisons between all the sports...they all work against each other in some way. Something valued in sport 1 is frowned upon in sport 2. And then, each hour you spend training for a venue, is one hour you're not training for a different one...and there's just not enough hours in a day to do that and excel at all of them.

Just look at the people on this forum, those that focus on a limited amount of venues tend to gain notoriety in them. And by that I mean at least title. Those that try 10 different venues, dabble, but never really get anywhere with any of them. Sure...the dog does them all, but a decent dog can do most, if not all of the venues they have out there for dogs (maybe not hunt trials, but with enough time and effort, who knows lol).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to my thinking exceptional is a dog that will work willingly , with accuracy and energy in an environment buzzing with noise and action and random movement . Buffy - bomb dog Washington DC

to my mind an exceptional dog is a dog that can fly from one location , go to work immediately , search 180 rooms , while other dogs tire and are replaced after 40 or 50 , and do so with energy and accuracy . -- Detection dog

to my mind an exceptional dog is a dog that can put in 8 years of active , meritorious police service, be a favourite for public relations , and at 10 years of age , based on his reputation and ability be special requested by the FBI to assist in a SWAT terrorist roundup -- Flint PD

to my mind an exceptional dog is a dog that can continue to work after being struck by a vehicle to make an aggressive apprehension --- Keno PD (Purina Hall of Famer)

to my mind an exceptional dog is a dog that can be called out in an extreme winter weather warning night , high wind , frigid temps , moonless dark night , and find quickly a man , with no appropriate clothing , with some mental problem who had wandered away from home . Stryker PD 

--- a dog who saved his LE handler in an 3 man armed ambush ...

non of them podium dogs 

even more the mothers and the daughters and their daughters who were able to produce these great dogs , generation after generation .. 

non of these dogs were ANGRY dogs which is often mistaken for courage and fight drive . All normal , clear, social dogs.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This brings to mind also some dogs in the USA currently that are big name studs and have achieved nothing podium wise.
> 
> Drago vom Patriot (seems to produce well)
> 
> ...


Have you seen enrico v klinkert from bomber? Have seen two dogs from enrico with different mothers, one female with plenty of everything and probably not an easy dog, another male that was described as "exceptional" and it was a very long time I´ve seen such a good representative of the breed the breeder commented, and he have seen and breed much.

Anyway, this depends on what people like and the use. As you said some dogs may have a flashy obedience and impressive couragetest but lacks in other things, another dog is stronger and more impressive overall but not so biddable and easy to train for absolute top scores, a dog better for policework than top scores in IPO maybe and that may be exactly what the breeder want. Personnaly I rather take a less flashy dog but who has overall good character and workingability instead of a dog who is more extreme in a few traits. 

Podium dogs I don´t care for so much, they obviously have a very good trainer but not always the most impressive dogs, and why would they be the best producers anyway, always exceptions of course but many good breedingdogs are not podium dogs but can go quite far anyway with a good trainer. If the dog really is exceptional I don´t see why it should not be able to do well regardless of the sport or work.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

I really like some of the examples that are being brought up here. 

What I consider an exceptional dog is one that conforms to the creator's standard in its entirety. A dog that is courageous, has no fear no matter what, biddable, loyal, handler sensitive, intelligent and intuitive, and can do whatever the handler asks of it, protective of handler and his belongings, clear and stable of mind, fierce and powerful while working but gentle and understanding while at home with family. The dog must be healthy and hardy with little maintenance, has a long active working life, correct, natural, powerful and athletic of structure.

EDIT: I think health is very important. There seems to be quite a few German Shepherds who are afflicted with allergies, hip/elbows/joint issues etc. and do not have a very long working life, from what I can tell at least. Our sheep dogs, provided they do not meet their demise via an accident or snake bite, will keep going and are still working over 10 years of age.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> A dog that is courageous, has no fear no matter what,


I think there should be some fear within good character. A dog that thinks knows there are options and fear/what ifs play into their courage.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Agree, Jane. A dog with no fear would be a dead dog. Courage (a human term) is not an absence of fear, but the ability to do what needs to be done despite the fear.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like to think my dog is exceptional to me because I may be done with the breed after him. I've had other GSDs and I've always envisioned myself having more, but if I think years ahead and picture myself without a GSD, it's like I don't feel bad because THIS dog is everything I could have wanted (and many things I didn't realize until later that I wanted/needed). I used to think I couldn't live without a GSD; lately I feel like I couldn't live WITH one that's NOT just like him.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its interesting, what some people think is exceptional I feel to be nothing more then a good dog. However, I suppose it takes all kinds to make the world go around. 

I know a couple of really strong males around here.

Sadly they are not titled because the handlers lack the ability and will thus contribute few pups to the gene pool. 

I have worked several dogs recently that would be podium quality for sure. Lots of prey drive, good nerve, plenty of flash and speed, hardness to handler and helper. 

The dogs could do LE or PP work they have the drive/nerve. They are safe dogs. To me they are still missing that fight/dominance necessary to push them into that exceptional category. 

A dog I recently met with the fight/dominance I like. Maybe not so flashy.

Beschützer des Jägers von den Sportwaffen


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I think there should be some fear within good character. A dog that thinks knows there are options and fear/what ifs play into their courage.


What you say makes sense but I disagree, there is a difference between fear and self preservation. I know a dog that is extremely timid. Scared of loud noises and sudden movements. Scared of new things. But it has done a number of extremely stupid activities that no normal dog that has any inkling of self preservation would do.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Interesting topic. 

To me, an exceptional dog is one that can do it all. I.e. A LE dog that gets on the podium in sport and on the weekends is a therapy dog. A dog that can easily be anything it needs to be. That's exceptional. 

I am a firm disliker of very sporty dogs. I have found I can spot them pretty quick. They may look exceptional, they may get to a podium, but they lack depth, strength of character. Something intrinsic that makes them occupy a space. 

An exceptional GSD commands attention. They OWN a room. You know when they walk in. There is a quiet strength to them. Not hectic, but focused and strong. 

I have owned and still do, amazing dogs. Dogs that were exceptional to me, but maybe not in the larger scheme of the breed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yeah
"An exceptional GSD commands attention. They OWN a room. You know when they walk in. There is a quiet strength to them. Not hectic, but focused and strong. "


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its interesting, what some people think is exceptional I feel to be nothing more then a good dog. However, I suppose it takes all kinds to make the world go around.
> 
> I know a couple of really strong males around here.
> 
> ...


This is true. There are probably also a lot of truly exceptional dogs in LE that are out there just doing their jobs and not being bred because they are not in the lime light of the IPO world.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What GSDSAR said!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg said "Its interesting, what some people think is exceptional I feel to be nothing more then a good dog."

If you are referring to dogs that I suggested let me tell you that these good dogs are doing a good job around the clock , daily, for years on end . They are tested to make sure their level of competency remains throughout the years. They work quietly behind the scenes . Many lives count on their work.

Your concept of the exceptional dog trains for that moment in the spot light on the podium . That moment is so fleeting he may never be on the podium again . He gets recognition , which the dog doesn't care about one way or the other , but the owner / handler does.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdsar said:


> An exceptional GSD commands attention. They OWN a room. You know when they walk in. There is a quiet strength to them. Not hectic, but focused and strong.


Love this


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

confused on this one "all dogs are a product of their handlers/trainers. It's the handler and trainer that can take a great dog and make it exceptional. A podium dog isn't made by a breeder, it's taught to do things a certain way. And I know that the raw material is probably 90% of the puzzle, but it's that other 10% that is brought in by a handler "

opening statement says that the dogs are made by training 
that it is not about the genetics .

closing statement says trainer contributes 10% , which means it is about the genetics , which you said was the raw material.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I like to think my dog is exceptional to me because I may be done with the breed after him. I've had other GSDs and I've always envisioned myself having more, but if I think years ahead and picture myself without a GSD, it's like I don't feel bad because THIS dog is everything I could have wanted (and many things I didn't realize until later that I wanted/needed). I used to think I couldn't live without a GSD; lately I feel like I couldn't live WITH one that's NOT just like him.


I feel this exact same way!

I know my dog is from a byb, I know he doesn't exactly meet the GSD standard but to me he is perfect and exceptional. I have never met a dog like him. Sometimes I like the idea of getting another GSD after he passes but other times I know that I will only compare that dog to him. I got incredibly lucky that my 1st dog that I got as an actual grown up, turned out to be exactly what I wanted in a dog but the downside is that no dog will ever be as good or as amazing as he is.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

In my opinion (for what its worth) it takes all of the above to make an exceptional dog; good genetics, competent handling, and enough opportunities to expose the dog's diverse abilities. This includes the opportunity to see if he can reproduce him self consistently.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yoshi said:


> What you say makes sense but I disagree, there is a difference between fear and self preservation. I know a dog that is extremely timid. Scared of loud noises and sudden movements. Scared of new things. But it has done a number of extremely stupid activities that no normal dog that has any inkling of self preservation would do.


Fear doesn't mean timidity.There is a difference. The one you are describing isn't what I mean at all. 
Pushing thru the fear powers up the courage. 


> To me, an exceptional dog is one that can do it all. I.e. A LE dog that gets on the podium in sport and on the weekends is a therapy dog. A dog that can easily be anything it needs to be. That's exceptional.
> 
> I am a firm disliker of very sporty dogs. I have found I can spot them pretty quick. They may look exceptional, they may get to a podium, but they lack depth, strength of character. Something intrinsic that makes them occupy a space.
> 
> An exceptional GSD commands attention. They OWN a room. You know when they walk in. There is a quiet strength to them. Not hectic, but focused and strong.


I agree with you on both, gsdsar!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its interesting, what some people think is exceptional I feel to be nothing more then a good dog. However, I suppose it takes all kinds to make the world go around.
> 
> I know a couple of really strong males around here.
> 
> ...


 Yay for a tip of the hat to Jäger. Yeah he's not flashy. One of the reasons I've always said I wanted to do other things than IPO with him. In the right hands he could have been made to be "average flashy" for IPO I think lol. But not "podium flashy"


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> confused on this one "all dogs are a product of their handlers/trainers. It's the handler and trainer that can take a great dog and make it exceptional. A podium dog isn't made by a breeder, it's taught to do things a certain way. And I know that the raw material is probably 90% of the puzzle, but it's that other 10% that is brought in by a handler "
> 
> opening statement says that the dogs are made by training
> that it is not about the genetics .
> ...


I'll translate into Canadian.

90% makes a great dog. 10% makes it an exceptional dog. The trainer chooses what direction and at what level the dog will go. 

Got it? Eh?

Basically, for the remedial, you can have the greatest dog genetically, but if it's not in the hands of a handler that can train it/use it as a real working dog, or train it to the level of obedience/flash that is needed to podium, the dog won't be "exceptional."

The dogs mentioned...are only known because their handlers are out doing things with them. The dogs you mentioned, are there because you were able to put them there instead of in a pet home. Those dogs had the opportunity to become exceptional because of their handlers and the position that they were in.

Loved gsdsar's explanation of it. And that's the point, if you don't give a dog the opportunity to do those things, you'll never know if it can be exceptional. So for 99% of dogs that don't get placed in a K9 role, they basically can't be exceptional. Or a dog that doesn't go to someone that has a goal of competing at nationals for a sport...dog can't be exceptional.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

To me, the exceptional dog can do well (meaning, do well... not podium) in IPO, do well in KNPV, do well in ringsports, do well as a LE dog, do well as a pet, do well as personal protection dog. Jack of all trades...

A Nissan GTR is an exceptional car... it can do well as a grocery getter, do well on a drag strip, do well on a road course, do well on a top speed run... but in each venue there are other specimens that are better suited if only for that respective venue... an SUV gets groceries better, plenty of cars are faster on a drag strip, any midengine car is better on a road course, and anything italian is better at top speed... but those cars can't do the other venues equally well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

martemchik can you engage in a decent discussion ?

where are all these diamonds in the rough ?


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

martemchik said:


> ...the whole "all around dog" doesn't work. There's not enough time in the day to train countless venues and achieve anything worth of value in all of them, to really make a statement about said dog.
> 
> Just look at the people on this forum, those that focus on a limited amount of venues tend to gain notoriety in them. And by that I mean at least title. Those that try 10 different venues, dabble, but never really get anywhere with any of them. Sure...the dog does them all, but a decent dog can do most, if not all of the venues they have out there for dogs (maybe not hunt trials, but with enough time and effort, who knows lol).


For some titling a dog is not the be all and end all. For some it is but not all. 



gsdsar said:


> Interesting topic.
> 
> To me, an exceptional dog is one that can do it all. I.e. A LE dog that gets on the podium in sport and on the weekends is a therapy dog. A dog that can easily be anything it needs to be. That's exceptional.
> 
> ...


Great post gsdsar. 

Scratching my head on martemchik who seems to be contradicting himself. See below.



martemchik said:


> I'll translate into Canadian.
> 
> ...
> Loved gsdsar's explanation of it. And that's the point, if you don't give a dog the opportunity to do those things, you'll never know if it can be exceptional. So for 99% of dogs that don't get placed in a K9 role, they basically can't be exceptional. Or a dog that doesn't go to someone that has a goal of competing at nationals for a sport...dog can't be exceptional.


So a dog must be placed in a K9 role to be exceptional? That's quite a narrow viewpoint but your are entitled to your own opinion as confusing as it may be. 

And why do you have to be so rude? This is a polite forum discussion.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm just discussing what others have mentioned. A dog that's performs a working role, also does sport, and then can be a therapy dog on weekends. I'm not saying that's what I believe, just that if that's the definition, then the dog needs that opportunity.

I think a good all around dog can be exceptional, but it won't get noticed, won't have any notoriety. And very few people will know about it. So even if the handler and a few people around that dog know about him/her. The rest of the world really won't, and that's what OP was kind of getting at. 

How can you call a dog exceptional if it doesn't do a single thing exceptionally well?

It's fine if you believe those things are exceptional, I won't argue with that. But calling your own dog exceptional is a bit narcissistic and extremely biased.

I'll point out lies's dog Nikon. A very good dog. Some would call him exceptional. Not going to argue that. He has his IPO1, is one of the top 5 flyball GSDs I believe, she does other things with him. But none of that stuff will get him noticed to the level OP is talking about. Nikon could've gotten his IPO3, maybe done very well at it, but due to his owner's decision, he didn't get that opportunity. Is that his fault? No. But if you want to look at exceptional objectively, that's something that must be considered.

I also wouldn't get rude if someone didn't randomly quote something I said, that was quite clear, and try to make me look stupid by turning words around. I know, to you I look like the rude one, but when someone just clearly misunderstands something and then calls you out based on their lack of comprehension, it gets old.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

To me an exceptional dog is a dog that is more than willing to work for you. When I say work, I mean that the dog is willing and ready to do what you want it to do, whether it's doing basic commands, agility, bite work, herding, etc. An exceptional dog to me is a dog that you can take anywhere, a dog that behaves in public, a dog that gets compliments from people about how good it is. A dog that catches on quickly when being taught something new, a dog that obeys a command the first time you say it. A dog that is great with all people, a dog that is loyal to it's master or family, a dog that is loving and affectionate when you need it to be. A dog that makes you feel loved and important, a dog that is so incredibly happy to see you when you come home from work and a dog that loves you more than anything.

An exceptional dog to me, is a dog that you look at and think "I love this dog, he brings so much joy to my life, he's such a great dog and when he's gone I will be heartbroken."

JMO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

And, if this was supposed to be a strictly theoretical discussion about what an exceptional dog should be like, then I appogize. But when I see people bringing up actual examples of dog's, it makes me believe the discussion is about what it takes to be a dog like that.

And it's no accident that many of the dogs mentioned are known by people from across the country....nothing theoretical about why those dogs are known.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I'm just discussing what others have mentioned. A dog that's performs a working role, also does sport, and then can be a therapy dog on weekends. I'm not saying that's what I believe, just that if that's the definition, then the dog needs that opportunity.
> 
> ...
> How can you call a dog exceptional if it doesn't do a single thing exceptionally well?
> ...


Thanks for the clarification.

I can call whatever dog I wish exceptional, thank you very much. We all have our own opinions. And, no, I didn't call my own dog exceptional. Your point on reading comprehension would be better taken if you also took that point to heart.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wasn't talking about you in that part...

But yeah, we can call any dog we want exceptional. But that's the point OP is bringing up, how valid is that? Can we all get to one "standard" of exceptional? Try to remove all bias/feelings/subjectivity from that?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I get wat martemchik is saying and I basically agree with him on a fundamental level. There are millions of dogs in this world. The exceptional ones are the ones who get the chance to do something. What made them exceptional? Yes they have to have ability (genetics) but they also need opportunity. I don't think this is what Blitz is talking about though. I think he is asking what makes one truly stand out from the crowd.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I think an exceptional dog will have the drive to look happy and animated in obedience (in any sport/phase) and will be able to take corrections respectfully, but without shutting down (ie. Having enough drive to bring them through a correction while also not blowing off the correction entirely or coming back at the handler). They should be generally biddable. I think they should still have fight in them without sacrificing control, because I see no reason to have to sacrifice one without the other. I think they should have impressive hunt drive in order to consistently put up high scores on IPO tracking, which we all know requires more obedience to the track than anything, although without sufficient hunt, the obedience to the track won't hold up either.
> 
> And I think you'd be surprised by the dogs on FCI or WUSV teams. Maybe it's the level of training that works with the amount of drive in these dogs to make them appear less out of control than the "extreme" dogs that everyone always thinks are stronger or better.


 

If we are discussing GSDs, it is the kind of dog that many of us talk about but what some seem to think never existed. What Gator dog wrote would be the closest in my opinion, only I will add a few points. MY opinion of course, just like everyone else.

I’ll talk about one exceptional dog from years gone by that I observed, was lucky enough to work in protection and who’s progeny, grand-progeny and now many more generations later I still own.

Enno v. Beilstein SchH 3 FH INT BSP 13th, without doubt the most exceptional GSD I have ever seen and remains at the top of my list as far as what I, (and many others), considered to be the epitome of a German Shepherd Dog. 

Enno didn’t have the drive to “look happy” he was happy, because he got satisfaction in the work itself. An idea in training and breeding that seems to be rare now, while everyone tries to find a way to make their dog “look good”. He was bred for the job and had the drive and instincts that gave him the ability to excel at it. He was an exceptionally powerful dog in protection. As a helper, you only work so many dogs in your life that really impress and intimidate you with their power and fight. I’m not talking about dirty dogs who take cheap shots, I am talking about dogs who’s genetics are so well channeled and clear that all of it is focused on the task at hand. When you are on the receiving end of that, it makes an impact.
Enno knew he was in control of all of it. Confidence that really can only be bred into a dog, not created by careful training. No, he was not trained with endless “rewards” with the sleeve slipped over and over. He was owned in Germany by a man not know for his gentle training methods, yet you could never see any evidence of that in Enno. Enno had fight drive, along with very strong nerves and a desire and true interest in pleasing his handler. Not a soft dog but not a dog who required boards over his head to comply. He could hear your spoken voice command and comply instantly while in the midst of fighting with the helper. He passed all of this off to his progeny. 

Full, natural calm grip but he would about take your arm off countering the fight from the helper. When working his son’s and grandsons, one thing I noticed was the how these dogs would channel any corrections during protection into the helper. they got stronger after a correction, in case you are not understanding what I mean. 
Biting the handler never occurred to those dogs, no matter how” unfair”. Powerful obedience, he looked like a tank coming down the field. I remember a little film my friend had of him before she bought him. It was mesmerizing to watch a dog like that, especially at the time. He wasn’t looking straight ahead or around at things nor did he look cowed. It was similar to what dogs look like now, he was looking up at the handler but it sure wasn’t the more ballerina kind of behavior we see now...there was so much powerful, yet contained, drive there and none of it “leaked”. His attitude was very much on display. 

No way was this a nasty dog, good in all situations. That comes from confidence that is purely genetics, not from tricks , balls, toys, e-collars etc. True protective instincts that so many now claim is not necessary for SchH work but without, you will never truly see great work. No one messed with me, (not for very long anyway), when I had one of his sons/grandsons etc with me. They took their job as protectors seriously but again, were so easy to control, loved kids, family etc. That for me is an exceptional GSD. You will not see many in your life that have all of it. I was lucky enough to experience a dog like that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vandal said:


> If we are discussing GSDs, it is the kind of dog that many of us talk about but what some seem to think never existed. What Gator dog wrote would be the closest in my opinion, only I will add a few points. MY opinion of course, just like everyone else.
> 
> I’ll talk about one exceptional dog from years gone by that I observed, was lucky enough to work in protection and who’s progeny, grand-progeny and now many more generations later I still own.
> 
> ...


bing bing bing -- lights flashing , confetti floating from ceiling -- THIS is it .


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Here is an example of a local dog that could be a great dog if he was owned by someone who could give him the right opportunities and exposure. At 10 months old he had helpers discussing techniques to catch him with out getting taken of their feet. His owner is a first time handler and he may never get the chance for the world to get to know him. I love him and so does everyone else who have had the chance to meet him and watch him work. He is a very at ease dog, zero dog aggression and is very forgiving to his handler's over zealous e-colllar corrections. I think he would do great in any avenue. He will probably never get the chance to do more than club level IPO work though, limiting his opportunities to really find out how great he could be.

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1842138-hirtus-z-arthemilly


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I doubt you will get an agreed upon definition of exceptional. Everyone will have a differing opinion based on their own experiences. 

Anne, yes, Enno depicted exceptionalism (either that is not a word or spell check doesn't know how to spell it).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess for me it boils down to...is this a dog I want to live with? Is this a dog I can trust? I'm not just talking about a pet either. I see a lot of people with high level working or sport dogs that off the field (and sometimes on) act like they can't stand their dogs or want absolutely nothing to do with them. Why would I ever expect my dog to step up and protect me or be sent in harm's way to do his "job" if I don't share that respect, trust, and loyalty first? It has nothing to do with titles or whether a dog is a "real" LE dog. If I don't LIKE interacting with the dog in person, he's not exceptional to me and as much time and energy I devote to my dogs, you'd be surprised at how not a dog persona I really am


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I agree Lies. You cannot train a dog to mimic being a good dog. I see so many people doing that now.
It is in the dog and rarely requires management that goes beyond what is reasonable.

I had and have dogs now that I think are exceptional based on MY interaction and experiences with them. Frankly, I don't give a rat's arsh what anyone else thinks but that is how the world of dogs is now. Most would not know a good dog if it hit them upside their head, they are so accustomed to the training side of it vs the genetic dog that in normal life shows just how fantastic he is..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I agree Lies. You cannot train a dog to mimic being a good dog. I see so many people doing that now.
> It is in the dog and rarely requires management that goes beyond what is reasonable.
> 
> I had and have dogs now that I think are exceptional based on MY interaction and experiences with them. Frankly, I don't give a rat's arsh what anyone else thinks but that is how the world of dogs is now. Most would not know a good dog if it hit them upside their head, they are so accustomed to the training side of it vs *the genetic dog that in normal life shows just how fantastic he is.*.


I have this, and wish I could have a do over. Or keep him at the age he is now/in his prime.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I mean, reading my post back it sounds kind of silly, who would own a dog they didn't really like, but the more I am involved in training dogs (not just IPO but all sorts of sports at various levels), the more I am amazed what people expect of their animals by only meeting their most basic needs and then "dangling carrots" so to speak. I love that my dog has met, if not exceeded every expectation of mine despite my shortcomings being very novice at first (and still in some venues) and making a LOT of mistakes, some mistakes that might have crushed another dog. I wake up in the morning and his face is all light up, tail wagging, and he's ready to go out and do whatever it is we do and not because it's some kind of "release" from pressure or he is denied other activities or mental stimulation unless training/working. That's not to say I don't use a good bit of pressure and release in training, but I don't think that's WHY the dog acts willing to work.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Blitzkrieg said "Its interesting, what some people think is exceptional I feel to be nothing more then a good dog."
> 
> If you are referring to dogs that I suggested let me tell you that these good dogs are doing a good job around the clock , daily, for years on end . They are tested to make sure their level of competency remains throughout the years. They work quietly behind the scenes . Many lives count on their work.
> 
> Your concept of the exceptional dog trains for that moment in the spot light on the podium . That moment is so fleeting he may never be on the podium again . He gets recognition , which the dog doesn't care about one way or the other , but the owner / handler does.


Sorry Carmen it just doesnt work for me. There are hundereds of thousands of dogs doing single / dual purpose work all over the world. There are many of them, undoubtedly some are exceptional. The vast majority range from good on down.

The drives/nerve necessary for that work are not impossible to find. If I had 12 grand kicking around I could buy a very nice dual purpose dog. 4-5K gets me a very nice prospect. Exceptional is not a dog I can just buy anywhere anytime I want to spend the money.

I wonder how much Zico costs...? Probably 40-50k if they would even part with him. Not dogs that are easy to find or buy. 

Yes he is a sport dog but lets not kid ourselves. Dogs like him can fulfill any working role you can imagine...as long as they dont go to an idiot handler.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sorry Carmen it just doesnt work for me. There are hundereds of thousands of dogs doing single / dual purpose work all over the world. There are many of them, undoubtedly some are exceptional. The vast majority range from good on down.
> 
> The drives/nerve necessary for that work are not impossible to find. If I had 12 grand kicking around I could buy a very nice dual purpose dog. 4-5K gets me a very nice prospect. Exceptional is not a dog I can just buy anywhere anytime I want to spend the money.
> 
> ...


Blitz,
What is the difference between a $12000 dog and a $40,000 dog? I would argue that most of it is hype.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Several years ago I got the pleasure to meet a pretty exceptional dog, IMO. Confident, unflappable. A podium dog, a house dog, a protector, a producer. He was totally accepting of me into his life for the 5 days I spent with him. Absolutely loved by his owner/handler. Probably her once in a lifetime dog. His owner was offered $100K euro ($150K USD at the time) for him and she turned the buyer down.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

robk said:


> Blitz,
> What is the difference between a $12000 dog and a $40,000 dog? I would argue that most of it is hype.


Maybe sometimes. However the dog in question has proven himself on the field and more importantly the whelping box hence my guess. Im sure he will be here within the next few years. Im betting some on this forum will breed to him and buy his progeny.

The price points I quoted were simply to illustrate my point. Nice dual purpose dogs are there in plenty if you have the cash. Exceptional dogs are not.

Sure you can buy an exceptional dog that has yet to prove himself on the cheap either as a young pup/ dog or a problem dog.
However, I was speaking about a proven dog in this instance.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

The vast majority of sportdogs aren´t exceptional either, I don´t know any succesfull breeder of real workingdog who breeds dogs who are average and expect good results. Why would´t you want the best dogs possible when the limitations in a good PSD should not be in the dog, I mean you don´t want a dog who will quit when the tracking starts to get rough and long, and you don´t want a dog you can´t count on in a dangerous situation, this is not necessary for sport.

Don´t like the word exceptional but look up quintus eqidius for a real nice dog, I bet he could do well in many roles and has the "it" factor This dog I also like very much, good in sport but also comes across as a dominant confident dog with both plenty of drive but also with good nerves, his work starts at about 32 min into the film,
https://bruksipo2014.solidtango.com/video/sondag-plan-a-planskydd-och-c-arbete-ipo-31-aug-10-18


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg , "Your concept of the exceptional dog trains for that moment in the spot light on the podium . That moment is so fleeting he may never be on the podium again . He gets recognition , which the dog doesn't care about one way or the other , but the owner / handler does."

exceptional to my view is the utility and versatility of the dog performing at high levels . 

here is an example , a dog employed in herding with sheep , (real not playing around) , conformation V , HGH V , SchH 3 "von Lord Fandor"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

KNPV met lof , is that exceptional ?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

blitzkrieg who are you thinking of when you say

"However the dog in question has proven himself on the field and more importantly the whelping box hence my guess.
Im sure he will be here within the next few years.

Im betting some on this forum will breed to him and buy his progeny."

there is much more to breeding than going to a podium dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Blitzkrieg , "Your concept of the exceptional dog trains for that moment in the spot light on the podium . That moment is so fleeting he may never be on the podium again . He gets recognition , which the dog doesn't care about one way or the other , but the owner / handler does."
> 
> exceptional to my view is the utility and versatility of the dog performing at high levels .
> 
> here is an example , a dog employed in herding with sheep , (real not playing around) , conformation V , HGH V , SchH 3 "von Lord Fandor"


You keep saying podium without I think realizing what kind of daily training and pressure the dog goes through to get there. When the dog can handle that, stay in drive and still bite/fight with conviction that tells you something. The dogs I provided as examples all would be capable of real work and all are in top echelons of sport.

Dual purpose work takes a good dog. There are many dogs that do it. So doing that work in and of itself does not make a dog exceptional. I have met Police K9s and seen the training..they are not mythical to me.

I was speaking specifically about Zico von der adalegg.

You could also look at Stormfronts Brawnson as an example of exceptional.

Herding sheep does not really do it for me. BCs and kelpies do that too and probably a bit better then most gsd.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Blitz, with all due respect, you need more understanding of large flock boundary herding, as originated in Germany, before commenting on it.  What Kelpie and BC do is not the same type of herding.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the idea that the final test and trial is the highest amount of pressure that a sport dog sees needs to be dispelled. I understand how it's easy to assume that, and then if you think about the type of pressure a working dog goes through on a daily basis you would then imply that the working dog definitely gets tested on a higher level. But the dogs I've worked with, and the helpers I've worked with, generally pressure the dogs much more than what is seen in the trial. Many will test above what a perfectly choreographed trial will be because trials are not perfect and anything can happen. So the assumption that a dog that gets a high podium placing hasn't been tested under much tougher circumstances, is in a way very disrespectful to the handler/trainer. It is in the same as requesting a working dogs resume and statistics to make sure that the dog actually did something in its "working history" and has been tested by a real criminal, or actually had to search for a person or narcotics or whatever and was successful at it. It would be like knocking a perfectly trained and good SAR dog for never actually having the opportunity to test its skills in the real world. IMO it doesn't make the dog any worse because it wasn't able to prove its skills out in the real world and only had certificates and training to back up its claims as a good working dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Blitz, with all due respect, you need more understanding of large flock boundary herding, as originated in Germany, before commenting on it.  What Kelpie and BC do is not the same type of herding.


Your right I do not know all the intracasies of herding. Large flocks or small flocks. 
However, I am just stating my opinion. Herding does not do it for me. I have seen dogs that are game on stock that dont translate that to manwork. 

Same with hunting, just because the dog will take big game does not mean he is capable of man work. jmo


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I'll agree with you, but there are also dogs that will take on a man that would never stand up to 500 plus sheep or a 1500# cow with the intent of going someplace they are not suppose to be.

Never diss something you know nothing about.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> blitzkrieg who are you thinking of when you say
> 
> "However the dog in question has proven himself on the field and more importantly the whelping box hence my guess.
> Im sure he will be here within the next few years.
> ...


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSiK2F8yyV8 there he is.

I dont think anyone will breed him because he is on the podium more because of what he is. I dont recall were I said breeding only to podium dogs was a good idea.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lhczth said:


> I'll agree with you, but there are also dogs that will take on a man that would never stand up to 500 plus sheep or a 1500# cow with the intent of going someplace they are not suppose to be.
> 
> Never diss something you know nothing about.


I was about to say conversly a dog that showed fear or avoidance from stock is would also not do it for me. 

Im not "dissing" it, just saying it doesn't mean much to me in and of itself. 
I may not know the intracasies but I have owned sheep and know how "strong" they are. I have encountered a few nasty rams though.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Most podium dogs are more a reflection of training, that's not to say some podium dogs aren't good, but it's no coincidence the same elite trainers are standing on the podium almost every year, regardless of their dog. Just like police, herding, show, or anything else, some are good, some not so good. The VA dogs have the best handlers, as do the podium dogs oftentimes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know one of the most successful IPO handler in past twenty years, has been on the podium and worlds with at least 4 different dogs.....he got rid of two of them because they weren't all that. But in his hands they were one of three best dogs in country for that given year. Just sayin.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Most podium dogs are more a reflection of training, that's not to say some podium dogs aren't good, but it's no coincidence the same elite trainers are standing on the podium almost every year, regardless of their dog. Just like police, herding, show, or anything else, some are good, some not so good. The VA dogs have the best handlers, as do the podium dogs oftentimes.


Cliff, can it be because they know how to pick or find those dogs as well as knowing how to train? This is an honest question, I'm not arguing with you. 

On the topic, I think exceptional is very subjective. Everyone will have their own idea based on what they like. Some will say a dog is exceptional as long as he has the nerve to fight a man. He can be deaf, crooked and blind but as long as he can do it he's exceptional. Others might like some other qualities. Though there are qualities most people will admire, that definition to everyone will be different based on their personality, complexes and preferences.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I know one of the most successful IPO handler in past twenty years, has been on the podium and worlds with at least 4 different dogs.....he got rid of two of them because they weren't all that. But in his hands they were one of three best dogs in country for that given year. Just sayin.


Makes sense. Why I think most of the dogs at worlds are not exceptional. It does make you think though about the perception that most podium dogs arent worth breeding too..
It seems to me that many top IPO competitors specifically the males will not keep a substandard or even average dog. There is always a push to get the strongest dog possible. From a breeding perspective this cant be a bad thing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I reference "podium" because in your opening question, Blitzkreig , you say that an exceptional dog is one that is capable of sport and LE and be of podium quality.

I wonder if you could direct the discussion to this 

"What recently caused me to think more on this was a discussion between trainers of different sports as well as my own experience and observations. 
Notably, KNPV, Belgian Ring, FR and IPO were represented in this discussion. 

They talking about taking dogs from other lines and using them in their sport of choice. Example KNPV bred dog to use in BR. 
FR line dog to use in IPO, etc.

It was noted that different aspects of the sports would often stop these dogs from being "top". 
Example the BR trainer tried a well bred KNPV dog. She found there to be lots of drive, independance, fight but when it came time to demand control and accuracy in the work the dog began to melt. His bite and entries suffered and he lost power in the work. BR requires numerous exercises back to back under control"


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Fear doesn't mean timidity.There is a difference. The one you are describing isn't what I mean at all.
> Pushing thru the fear powers up the courage.
> 
> I agree with you on both, gsdsar!!


OK, now I see what you mean! I misunderstood earlier, I thought you may have meant that a dog with no fear had no instinct for self preservation. My mistake! You mean that it is OK for a dog to have fear but what's important is _how_ they deal with it? I think I understand now.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I reference "podium" because in your opening question, Blitzkreig , you say that an exceptional dog is one that is capable of sport and LE and be of podium quality.
> 
> I wonder if you could direct the discussion to this
> 
> ...


Yes I mentioned podium. My objection was to your inference that I think you should breed to the podium. I agree that not all podium dogs equate to exceptional, however some do and are. I think the dog on the podium does tell you a lot, not the whole picture but its not easy to get there.

The discussion I referenced was in terms of bloodlines. About how dogs bred for successive generations in certain sports were often better disposed to that venue. This was a few peoples experience and I found it interesting. Perhaps the traits emphasized in the KNPV dog would not transition well to the ipo field.

However upon further reflection, I think an exceptional dog would transition well. The Angsbacken's Rosso type of dog would do well in those venues. Medium size, fast and intense.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Perhaps the traits emphasized in the KNPV dog would not transition well to the ipo field."

show me .


confused on your reply -- 

Cliff was saying the dogs were there because of the trainer/handlers skill .
The "Worlds" is the show case . Being there would have stirred interest and given credibility to the dog as a breeding partner . Points .

I know a dog that went to Worlds . Great trainer. Dog had problems.

Originally Posted by *cliffson1*  
_I know one of the most successful IPO handler in past twenty years, has been on the podium and worlds with at least 4 different dogs.....he got rid of two of them because they weren't all that. But in his hands they were one of three best dogs in country for that given year. Just sayin._
Makes sense. Why I think most of the dogs at worlds are not exceptional. It does make you think though about the perception that most podium dogs arent worth breeding too..
It seems to me that many top IPO competitors specifically the males will not keep a substandard or even average dog. There is always a push to get the strongest dog possible. From a breeding perspective this cant be a bad thing.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let's extend the point further, when this competitor had the dogs that were discarded, people were flocking to the dogs to be bred,....when he got rid of both of the dogs, their popularity for breeding seemed to fall off the earth. What changed about the dog?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> "Perhaps the traits emphasized in the KNPV dog would not transition well to the ipo field."
> 
> show me .
> 
> ...


Show you what? I dont have video of the dog. It was an anecdotal conversation. The implication being that some good KNPV dogs would melt in a system that had more emphasis on control and correctness. What is a good dog for them may not be a good dog for IPO or ring.

I would say in that instance people bought in to the dogs hype generated by the trainer. Wouldnt be the first time. I wouldnt want a pup from hank weinbergblick. He is the number one dog for several years now.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You guys are a tough crowd to please. No dog is devine.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

robk said:


> You guys are a tough crowd to please. No dog is devine.


lol...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

show me a pedigree of what you think is a really really good knpv dog and let's set why it wouldn't be good in mondio or IPO.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I would guess that many successful KNVP GSDs come from IPO bloodlines;

Cain von Frankonia

Inox vom Haus Ming

Edo van Brandevoort


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I saw this dog recently in IPO, he seems very good for that, KNPV-dogs behind him and his father a podium dog in that sport, if we look at the mal/dutchie there is also dogs from different sports doing other sports,

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1965967-brigadens-front

It´s a smaller part of GSDs that have more pure lines that don´t include IPO-titles close up anyway, there are some lines from different background that in general have some differences that can be attributed to that, dogs like these from other sports or more police/military oriented, on the other hand we have different dogs in IPO also despite they have done IPO for generations,

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2201832-gorms-lestor-aro

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=596634-nemrs-parra

The exceptional dogs people talk about I think is not always so impressive, just like famous/hyped dogs may be a lesser dog than their not so known brother but get most breedings anyway, you see the results in the offspring. Thats´s not good I think, if the goal is to get as good dogs possible for a certain work, then use those dogs that have what you want, if the dog is a PSD,SCH or another sport or not even titled shouldn´t be the main criteria because there are good dogs from different backgrounds/lines.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Vandal said:


> If we are discussing GSDs, it is the kind of dog that many of us talk about but what some seem to think never existed. What Gator dog wrote would be the closest in my opinion, only I will add a few points. MY opinion of course, just like everyone else.
> 
> I’ll talk about one exceptional dog from years gone by that I observed, was lucky enough to work in protection and who’s progeny, grand-progeny and now many more generations later I still own.
> 
> ...


I get so excited when I see one of your posts Anne! A feeling similar to one when I was younger and eager to learn, walking into my favorite teacher's classroom. That one special teacher I hope we have all had the pleasure to experience that made the whole world seem so grand and vibrant! That anything was possible! I am so grateful to your insight and experience and can only hope to gain the amount the knowledge you posses. 

As far as exceptional, I am far too inexperienced to form a practical opinion on exceptional but one thing that irritates me is any type of leaking. A dog who cannot contain itself or looks as if its on the verge of loosing it at any second isnt a trait I admire. Quiet intensity is much more impressive to me. 

And I formed that opinion based on my current dog who I absolutely despise in any working capacity. For the sake of our bond and relationship I chose to cease all formal training venues with him. Training him would bring out a level of frustration in me that was extremely unhealthy. I shouldn't have to stake him to the ground and choke him to near unconsciousness for him to understand that you do not get up and you MUST contain yourself when you are in a down and another dog is on the field. It would have taken multiple "come to Jesus meetings" and even then I wouldn't be sure he would be 100% on a long down. That's how bad his leakage is. That he would risk his self-preservation because he literally couldn't contain himself. Wasn't worth it to me. If its that difficult for him to get it through his thick skull, IMO its a genetic issue that overrides his self preservation and that is an incredible strong motivator and it still wasn't enough. I decided it was not worth all the stress and anxiety and conflict it caused me. He's a GREAT house dog, and extremely obedient. He rarely ever wears a leash, is extremely responsive with a pack drive through the roof, he prefers to be by my side more than anything in the world. But the second we step out onto the training field he falls apart. There is just too much environmental stimuli for him to ignore. I dont get it. How he can be so good in everyday living but any formal training field he knows and everything goes out the window. He's like one of those people who are extremely intelligent, does well in school but just falls apart when its time to take a test. Like the pressure is just too much. And he leaks all over. I don't understand how he will stay down when a dog walks by our house or how he doesn't care about any dog we may see out and about but at training he looses his mind. I don't understand why it doesn't affect him in daily life but any goals of titling is down the drain. Its extremely frustrating because he is not the out of control monster he acts like at training.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I think there should be some fear within good character. A dog that thinks knows there are options and fear/what ifs play into their courage.


Jane,

I always had such a hard time understanding fight drive, confidence ect because it was being described to me as "no fear". An animal with no fear is a foreign concept to me (though i'm sure through selective breeding is possible and those dogs might exist). I think Lisa said a fearless dog is a dead dog (as with any other animal on the planet). Fear is the best motivator. I do not equate fear with being shy, timid, shaking in a corner. 

Without fear, how is a dog able to recognize a threat. Even those that enjoy fighting men in competition or fight drive realize something could be at stake. If their position in the pack alone, or their confidence in loosing a "battle". Not crippling fear,but a realization that loosing may have consequences.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Today I see a lot of GS that have stronger drives than temperament, this is in general a reverse of dogs in the past. Excessive leakage often is a result of this reversal. Jmo


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

It is unfortunate that people just can't post the dogs they consider exceptional-but then I guess if that happened people would just rip the dog apart...


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