# Help - having post puppy blues!



## Sunshine702 (Nov 14, 2017)

Hi, please don't hate me. I just got an 11 week old GSD and I'm totally freaking out. I've been around older GSDs and loved them, but this puppy is making me crazy. She is sweet and adorable and then an absolute nightmare. She chases my cat so I have had to have them separated. She bites and chews on everything, myself included. I take her out every hour on the hour but she still will have accidents so I feel like I don't know how to house train. I have no idea how to make her listen, and I'm totally freaking out thinking I wasn't ready for a puppy, let alone a smart GSD puppy. I have to have her respect me. I have a trainer coming for a consult tomorrow and I'm considering boot camp. Can someone please tell me this is just because it's new? I feel like a total jerk and have spent hours on the internet trying to come up with a solution. She doesn't seem all that interested in treats as a way to train, so I'm at a loss. She just wants to chase, bite, pee, and then sleep.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Perfectly normal that you feel that way. Just keeping telling yourself: "This too shall pass." I think it's great that you are consulting with a trainer.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Oh goodness. I spent those first couple months so tired i hardly remember them now. The first 6 months was hard, I was a first time dog owner. Now i understand so much more, I educate myself as much as possible daily and i look forward to having another GS puppy some day.  
What a crash course. My pup is now 9 months and we have a blast. Put in the time and effort and it pays off. In my very limited experience.
Spend a hours+++ searching this forum alone. It will help your situation, help house train and know wether or not you have the right trainer coming tomorrow.
Are you a first time puppy owner?
Are you crate training? 
She is to young for you to make her listen or for her to respect you.
Not being food motivated can be challenging I would bet.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Sunshine702 said:


> Hi, please don't hate me. I just got an 11 week old GSD and I'm totally freaking out. I've been around older GSDs and loved them, but this puppy is making me crazy. She is sweet and adorable and then an absolute nightmare. She chases my cat so I have had to have them separated. She bites and chews on everything, myself included. I take her out every hour on the hour but she still will have accidents so I feel like I don't know how to house train. I have no idea how to make her listen, and I'm totally freaking out thinking I wasn't ready for a puppy, let alone a smart GSD puppy. I have to have her respect me. I have a trainer coming for a consult tomorrow and I'm considering boot camp. Can someone please tell me this is just because it's new? I feel like a total jerk and have spent hours on the internet trying to come up with a solution. She doesn't seem all that interested in treats as a way to train, so I'm at a loss. She just wants to chase, bite, pee, and then sleep.


You may be expecting too much from an 11 wk old. You say you have been around older shepherds but not puppies. Their behaviors are totally different. It is like you have a 3 yr old toddler. You would not expect a toddler to read a book, or go to school. The most you can expect as far as listening is concerned at this stage is she comes when you call her name. Just like a toddler. Very good trainers can start training them that young with treats and a clicker but even they don't expect the same sort of obedience that you get with older dogs. 

Enjoy these moments because they don't last very long. Sounds like you are not using a crate. The trainer should talk to you about that. Crates are invaluable when potty training and teaching quiet time. Have things that she can chew that she can't eat and choke on, and you don't mind getting wrecked or throwing out later. If she does not respond to treats you may be overfeeding her or giving bad tasting treats or she may be afraid of interacting with you if she can sense some hostility on your part.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

If you don't have a crate, get one today! Your puppy will love it and so will you. Make it very cozy and put her toys and treats in there. She will wander in to explore the crate. Don't shut her in until she is comfortable in there, and then only for short periods on the first day. Toss some treats in whenever you walk past the crate. Once a positive association is built with the crate, she will naturally go there to sleep. You need to be able to have breaks from your dog! A bully stick should buy you half and hour of peace. Don't worry, this phases passes very quickly.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Kudos on you for getting a trainer. Not everyone wants to admit that they are a bit over their head. Our IPO trainer helped us quite a bit. A send away camp would not be my first choice since most of the training is for us, less for the dog. We need to learn how to communicate with our pups, learn their body language and cues. We have to learn the correct timing for consequences, rewards and punishments. We need to learn correct expectations. Pups can only handle so much training at a time. Pups need naps or they get nippy and fussy. Pups need to chew because their grown up teeth come in pretty quickly. Pups need to learn how hard to bite, when to bite and when not to bite, what not to bite! It is a lot for both of you!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sunshine702 said:


> Hi, please don't hate me. I just got an 11 week old GSD and I'm totally freaking out. I've been around older GSDs and loved them, but this puppy is making me crazy. She is sweet and adorable and then an absolute nightmare. She chases my cat so I have had to have them separated. She bites and chews on everything, myself included. I take her out every hour on the hour but she still will have accidents so I feel like I don't know how to house train. I have no idea how to make her listen, and I'm totally freaking out thinking I wasn't ready for a puppy, let alone a smart GSD puppy. I have to have her respect me. I have a trainer coming for a consult tomorrow and I'm considering boot camp. Can someone please tell me this is just because it's new? I feel like a total jerk and have spent hours on the internet trying to come up with a solution. She doesn't seem all that interested in treats as a way to train, so I'm at a loss. She just wants to chase, bite, pee, and then sleep.


I feel your pain... now you know why they make those puppers so cute!!!!! I second what others say about the crate, it will give you a break... think of it as a play pen or a crib for babies. He can't hurt himself there and chew on something dangerous! Give him a kong toy filled with some of his food and that'll keep him busy for a little bit while you take a nap. I didn't get any sleep either the first 6 months on top of that he was a sick puppy so it was so hard... we had no life! Crate training will also help you with potty training since they don't like to pee in their "space". Just remember only keep him crated for an hour or so at a time at this age during the day especially if he was playing and drank a lot of water he can't hold it very long. With your kitty give her an escape route, a gated off bedroom (one of those shorter gates she is comfortable jumping) that way when she has had enough of the pup she can retreat and come out when she is ready for more. I think it is very important not to separate at this age completely or else the pup will grow up never used to living around cats... You must allow interaction, the cat will correct the puppy herself. She will smack the puppy on the nose when she has had enough and puppy will learn on his own to back off. Of course supervise the interactions and make sure things don't go too far especially if you have a crazy cat. I don't recommend boot camp, if you are a new dog owner you need the training more than your pup, it is a whole new language learning to communicate with another species. As far as treats to train here is what you need to do, don't free feed him and the only time he gets any of his kibble is when you train. Nothing in life is free! When he potties, treat. When you go to let him outside have him wait at the door first then treat. When you come back inside the house, treat. When he is relaxed and playing with his toys, treat. Keep rewarding the behavior you want to see. At first if he isn't interested in his kibble don't worry, once he gets hungry he will want to eat. Adding that element of anticipation and learning I found made my guy much more food motivated. Use higher value treats that are not kibble for insane distractions like other dogs, kids, people, or cars and obedience class. I highly recommend looking into clicker training as well. As far as potty training some puppies need to be taken out every 15 MINUTES, an hour is waiting much too long. If your puppy keeps having accidents on the hour mark then you need to be taking him out before you let that mistake happen. Make sure you pick up a good enzymatic cleaner at the store, nothing else will do and he will keep peeing in the same spot if you use a traditional floor cleaner.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> You must allow interaction, the cat will correct the puppy herself. She will smack the puppy on the nose when she has had enough and puppy will learn on his own to back off.


Or she will get the eye instead of the nose causing an incredibly painful and debilitating eye injury. 

Two cat scratch injuries:



















Eye Scratch Injuries in Puppies

Yes... that is blood in the second. These types of injury require SURGERY to heal - if they heal at all. BLINDNESS is a real possibility. Scar tissue on the eye is no joke. 

Don't let your cat correct the dog. Ever. YOU correct the dog. 

Puppies do not have a blink response capable of protecting their eyes from cats until 3-4 months of age. Keep them separate until then if you value your dog's vision.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I always have a feeling of "what did I get myself into, AGAIN?" with a new pup after the initial euforia is over. Good for you to hire a trainer. It will be a life saver, maybe even literally for the pup .
But after about a month of hard work it will get better. Don't forget to step back once in a while and see how cute she is and how lucky you are to have a GSD! Read up the poem of "Dear Master" here on this forum. (it should be a sticky)


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Or she will get the eye instead of the nose causing an incredibly painful and debilitating eye injury.
> 
> Two cat scratch injuries:
> 
> ...


Yes if you have a crazy cat. If the cat has an escape route she will likely flee instead of fight, be there to intervene if the cat gets cornered but you must let interaction occur at some point unless you plan on keeping them separate forever. Use common sense, if the puppy isn't getting the hint then it is time to step in. If the cat swats with no claws at the pups nose and pup jumps back that is a good thing. He is learning not to push the cats limits. My cats were here first, the puppy needs to learn how to respect them. Also keep your cats nails cut. But hey what do I know? This is MY experience :smile2: Voodoo guessing your dog doesn't get along well with cats eh?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Or she will get the eye instead of the nose causing an incredibly painful and debilitating eye injury.
> 
> Don't let your cat correct the dog. Ever. YOU correct the dog.
> 
> Puppies do not have a blink response capable of protecting their eyes from cats until 3-4 months of age. Keep them separate until then if you value your dog's vision.


Not just this, some cats will never correct a dog. I have had easy going cats that will just lay there and let dogs chew on them like a play toy while crying out to me for help. Others will spend their lives avoiding and hiding. It absolutely is not fair to a cat for you to bring a bitey German Shepherd puppy into your home and expect your cat to do your job, especially when you can't get a puppy to stop biting you. Isolating the cat is not a good option either. It is the puppy that is new and needs to be integrated into the home.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not just this, some cats will never correct a dog. I have had easy going cats that will just lay there and let dogs chew on them like a play toy while crying out to me for help. Others will spend their lives avoiding and hiding. It absolutely is not fair to a cat for you to bring a bitey German Shepherd puppy into your home and expect your cat to do your job, especially when you can't get a puppy to stop biting you. Isolating the cat is not a good option either. It is the puppy that is new and needs to be integrated into the home.


Exactly and this is why you watch and intervene. If the cat doesn't defend itself you need to be there to correct the puppy and help it out. Same goes the other way, if the cat is out of bounds and being hyper aggressive with the puppy it is time to correct the cat! Separating until your dog is grown is just as bad, now the cat is in danger because this dog doesn't know how to play nice with a cat because he never did as a puppy. Your cat is now the one in danger! There are plenty of photos and videos of dogs killing cats on the internet. If the cat gets fed up with the bitey german shepherd puppy she can escape to her gated off paradise where the puppy can't mess with her. Be sure to provide her with lots of love and affection during this time, this transition is likely just as hard for her as it is for you. A lot of this depends on the drive of your dog as well. If you have a high prey drive puppy you may never expect them to coexist peacefully together. It is either time to realize that and accommodate or make a decision and rehome one of them or you have a long road ahead of you of hard work. My sable in that first photo was a high prey drive dog, but as you can see we worked hard and managed. Both of his eyes were just fine thank you very much .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

For me Gandolf, its not a matter of a crazy cat. Its how cats defend themselves and puppies lead with their face. And it can all happen in play. I'm not challenging your experience with it, but its one of those things I wouldn't advise someone try. I say the same thing with letting dogs work it out. I won't, and I'll never advise anyone else to either.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes if you have a crazy cat. If the cat has an escape route she will likely flee instead of fight, be there to intervene if the cat gets cornered but you must let interaction occur at some point unless you plan on keeping them separate forever. Use common sense, if the puppy isn't getting the hint then it is time to step in. If the cat swats with no claws at the pups nose and pup jumps back that is a good thing. He is learning not to push the cats limits. But hey what do I know? This is MY experience :smile2: Voodoo guessing your dog doesn't get along well with cats eh?


Actually... my dog is fine with cats and other small animals. He was taught a strong "leave it" command as a puppy and never allowed to harass them. 

Congrats on successfully raising your pup and cat together, however, your experience is not universal. You advised:



> You must allow interaction, the cat will correct the puppy herself. She will smack the puppy on the nose when she has had enough and puppy will learn on his own to back off.


_without even knowing the temperament of the OP's cat_ on a puppy _too young to have a properly developed blink response._

This is outright DANGEROUS advice. 

Cats have claws. Claws have been KNOWN to rupture eye balls.

I linked an article by a well regarded Veterinary Ophthalmologist - Dr. Busse. Someone who _regularly_ sees and treats injuries to dog's eyes that came from cats. 

Gotta go with the expert advice on this one.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> For me Gandolf, its not a matter of a crazy cat. Its how cats defend themselves and puppies lead with their face. And it can all happen in play. I'm not challenging your experience with it, but its one of those things I wouldn't advise someone try. I say the same thing with letting dogs work it out. I won't, and I'll never advise anyone else to either.


I think to have success you most likely need a lot of experience reading dog and cat body language. I can tell many minutes before when my cat is going to strike, she gives very clear signals. Most guests that come into my house cannot read these signals, they are very subtle. It all depends on how well you know your cat at this stage because she is the one in control of the situation. Cats that run and are generally fearful don't make good candidates. Confident cats are best.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes if you have a crazy cat. If the cat has an escape route she will likely flee instead of fight, be there to intervene if the cat gets cornered but you must let interaction occur at some point unless you plan on keeping them separate forever. Use common sense, if the puppy isn't getting the hint then it is time to step in. If the cat swats with no claws at the pups nose and pup jumps back that is a good thing. He is learning not to push the cats limits. My cats were here first, the puppy needs to learn how to respect them. Also keep your cats nails cut. But hey what do I know? This is MY experience :smile2: Voodoo guessing your dog doesn't get along well with cats eh?


Nope, voodoo is spot on with this.

ESPECIALLY if you have never exposed your cats to a dog, you don't know how they'll react. YOU watch. YOU correct and train the puppy. YOU make sure the puppy has an understanding of "leave it" before you start letting them interact. It's cruel, unfair, and foolish to put this on your cat and to put your puppy's vision at risk.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Actually... my dog is fine with cats and other small animals. He was taught a strong "leave it" command as a puppy and never allowed to harass them.
> 
> Congrats on successfully raising your pup and cat together, however, your experience is not universal. You advised:
> 
> ...


So you have to be there constantly every time your dog sees a cat and say leave it? That's rough, what if you weren't there? Read my other post, I go more in depth. Bottom line the OP needs to know their cat and her boundaries. If the OP isn't comfortable with it then she can certainly keep them separated forever, lots of people live like that. Get a trainer in if you want to work on it. Personally I feel it is cruel to the cat who was here first and had free reign of the house to then be locked in a room forever because of a new puppy but that is just my opinion. An experienced person with both dogs and cat can read the body language and know if it is going to work out or not. I've had dogs for over 20 years, and my family has also had dogs and cats together and we have never had eyes scratched like that. This is a dog forum so of course everyone will be worried about what is going to happen to the puppy and not care about the cat. Everyone has their own training techniques and methods, use what works for you.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There's another option, a much safer black & white one.

Teach the dog that the cat is *off limits*, period. Don't expect the dog and cat to become buddies. Some might, some never will. 

There are a hundred variables here, including whether or not the cat in question is front/rear declawed, or neither. 

I have two cats. They are NOT snuggle buddies with my dogs, but they are also not in any danger from my dogs. One of my cats is pleasant and tolerant, the other is full of evil and is utterly unpredictable. Both are fully clawed.

I never let puppies stalk the cats, eye/fixate on the cats, or treat the cats like prey animals. The cats are around, they can be in the same room as the dogs, but *safety* has always been more important to me than hoping a cute and cuddly friendship develops. I'd prefer the dogs ignore the cats. It works, and I don't have to worry about any of them.

Why gamble? I don't think it's worth the risk. Dog leaves cat alone.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Exactly and this is why you watch and intervene. If the cat doesn't defend itself you need to be there to correct the puppy and help it out. Same goes the other way, if the cat is out of bounds and being hyper aggressive with the puppy it is time to correct the cat! Separating until your dog is grown is just as bad, now the cat is in danger because this dog doesn't know how to play nice with a cat because he never did as a puppy. Your cat is now the one in danger! There are plenty of photos and videos of dogs killing cats on the internet. If the cat gets fed up with the bitey german shepherd puppy she can escape to her gated off paradise where the puppy can't mess with her. Be sure to provide her with lots of love and affection during this time, this transition is likely just as hard for her as it is for you. A lot of this depends on the drive of your dog as well. If you have a high prey drive puppy you may never expect them to coexist peacefully together. *It is either time to realize that and accommodate or make a decision and rehome one of them *or you have a long road ahead of you of hard work. My sable in that first photo was a high prey drive dog, but as you can see we worked hard and managed. Both of his eyes were just fine thank you very much .


:surprise: I cannot agree with the bolded. You don't bring a puppy into an household with the forethought of rehoming existing family pets if the new dog can't fit in.

I still say it is not up to the cat to correct or to be forced to run from a biting puppy. It is the owner's job to supervise and train.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

And for the record... I am NOT advising keeping cat and dog separate for ever or until adult hood.

Keep them separate for a few weeks, work on "leave it" with the pup on things less exciting than the cat. By the time the pup is 4 months old, it should have a good understanding of "leave it" and other commands that will help with the intros, they should be pretty used to each other by smell and sound, AND the puppy will be physically developed enough to possess the reflexes to better avoid the cat claw IF something bad were to happen (I still would not PURPOSEFULLY allow the cat to correct the dog, but I am realistic in the fact that life happens, atleast let it happen with the deck stacked in your favor)

Right now a cat swiping at a 11 week old pup's face is the equivalent of a MLB player pitching to a toddler. The young one just physically does not have the reflexes to handle this yet.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So you have to be there constantly every time your dog sees a cat and say leave it? That's rough, what if you weren't there? Read my other post, I go more in depth. Bottom line the OP needs to know their cat and her boundaries. If the OP isn't comfortable with it then she can certainly keep them separated forever, lots of people live like that. Get a trainer in if you want to work on it. Personally I feel it is cruel to the cat who was here first and had free reign of the house to then be locked in a room forever because of a new puppy but that is just my opinion. An experienced person with both dogs and cat can read the body language and know if it is going to work out or not.


This isn't rocket science. You give your cat an escape route and a dog free zone. You keep them in separate areas when you can't supervise. I didn't shut my cats in one room; I crated the puppy. It really isn't hard.

The puppy learned "leave the kitty" and we let them interact under close supervision when she was older. My one cat is over the top aggressive, though. She doesn't warn at all, she will just lash out and try to "correct" the dog just for existing (we're talking cat perched on the back of the couch, dog walks past not even looking at her because I'm sitting on the other side of the room, cat growls and swipes at her). It would have been really stupid for us to allow interaction when the puppy was young.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> There's another option, a much safer black & white one.
> 
> Teach the dog that the cat is *off limits*, period. Don't expect the dog and cat to become buddies. Some might, some never will.
> 
> ...


Yep you can also go this route and teach a "place" command, it is a useful command for many things besides cats too! We used a combination of interaction and place command with our recent puppy and our last one, they both have a higher drive. My first dog was low drive and there was no need to train, the cats slept all over him.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It took a long long time for the dogs to get use to the cat she is a runner and very skittish to so sometimes reminders are needed. Luna leaves her alone now max sometimes starts up. She does not like to hang around also so much patience is needed. I have a cat door leading to the basement we?re the litter box is it is her safe zone. She does not like them I don?t blame her


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> And for the record... I am NOT advising keeping cat and dog separate for ever or until adult hood.
> 
> Keep them separate for a few weeks, work on "leave it" with the pup on things less exciting than the cat. By the time the pup is 4 months old, it should have a good understanding of "leave it" and other commands that will help with the intros, they should be pretty used to each other by smell and sound, AND the puppy will be physically developed enough to possess the reflexes to better avoid the cat claw IF something bad were to happen (I still would not PURPOSEFULLY allow the cat to correct the dog, but I am realistic in the fact that life happens, atleast let it happen with the deck stacked in your favor)
> 
> Right now a cat swiping at a 11 week old pup's face is the equivalent of a MLB player pitching to a toddler. The young one just physically does not have the reflexes to handle this yet.


Like I said all depends on the cat. My cats "correction" was always a soft pat pat on the puppys nose without her claws out. He completely respects her and knows to back off if he has gone too far.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> This isn't rocket science. You give your cat an escape route and a dog free zone. You keep them in separate areas when you can't supervise. I didn't shut my cats in one room; I crated the puppy. It really isn't hard.
> 
> The puppy learned "leave the kitty" and we let them interact under close supervision when she was older. *My one cat is over the top aggressive*, though. She doesn't warn at all, she will just lash out and try to "correct" the dog just for existing (we're talking cat perched on the back of the couch, dog walks past not even looking at her because I'm sitting on the other side of the room, cat growls and swipes at her). It would have been really stupid for us to allow interaction when the puppy was young.


Ah so YES you have a crazy kitty! It all depends on the cat.. the cat is the one in control of the situation at this point. If you have a crazy cat I AM NOT saying let them interact. I have two cats that hate dogs (one of them is 22 YEARS OLD), but they aren't "crazy", the dog also respects them. Cats that are "runners" are also difficult because most dogs with a bit of prey drive will want to chase. Rule #1 NO CHASING CATS. You interfere if you see chasing.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yep you can also go this route and teach a "place" command, it is a useful command for many things besides cats too! We used a combination of interaction and place command with our recent puppy and our last one, they both have a higher drive. My first dog was low drive and there was no need to train, the cats slept all over him.


It's very useful, but "leave it" better targets what you'd be after. My dog understands the specific command, "Leave the kitty!" She doesn't know that we issue it to protect her from our evil cat, but she knows to back away.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Ah so YES you have a crazy kitty! It all depends on the cat.. the cat is the one in control of the situation at this point. If you have a crazy cat I AM NOT saying let them interact. I have two cats that hate dogs, but they aren't "crazy", the dog also respects them. Cats that are "runners" are also difficult because most dogs with a bit of prey drive will want to chase. Rule #1 NO CHASING CATS. You interfere if you see chasing.


I have one evil cat and one runner. My dog doesn't chase. She follows (I won't derail by telling you all the things she's done trying to make them her friends), but she will quit when we remind her, "Leave the kitty."

Even with the runner, I maintain it would have been foolish for us to let them interact too early. The dog just didn't have the impulse control at 11 weeks or even 16 weeks or 20 weeks to not display her exuberant friendliness. The cat would never have interpreted that as friendliness and would have likely lashed out a lot more, making the overall relations worse.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> It's very useful, but "leave it" better targets what you'd be after. My dog understands the specific command, "Leave the kitty!" She doesn't know that we issue it to protect her from our evil cat, but she knows to back away.


I think both commands are very useful. I'm sorry if yall got the impression I was advising the OP to NOT train her dog. She does need to train the dog and work with him too, but I also like some interaction to occur as long as it is safe and supervised. You don't need to be constantly nagging at the puppy though for just being curious.

When you have a cat that runs I find it much more difficult to train because you need to work with the cat too. Bring in some toys the cat enjoys and build her confidence as well. I also like to give the cats shelves in the house and escape routes to build that confidence so they don't run but instead can climb high if they get scared. Our calico in those photos used to be a huge runner and a crazy cat. We worked with her and trained her just as much as we did the dog. She also knows how to play dead if you act like you shoot her with a gun LOL!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So you have to be there constantly every time your dog sees a cat and say leave it?


No. After enough repetitions the dog learns that cats are off limits. 



> That's rough, what if you weren't there?


As a matter of practice I do not allow my pets to interact with one another when I am not home. 

I have heard too many first hand accounts of people coming home to an injured or dead pet, killed by another, even after the two animals have gotten well together for _years_.



> Read my other post, I go more in depth. Bottom line the OP needs to know their cat and her boundaries. If the OP isn't comfortable with it then she can certainly keep them separated forever, lots of people live like that. Get a trainer in if you want to work on it. Personally I feel it is cruel to the cat who was here first and had free reign of the house to then be locked in a room forever because of a new puppy but that is just my opinion.


Who has advised keeping them separate forever? Why are you so against waiting a few weeks until the pup is physically mature enough to possess the reflexes to protect itself AND have had a few weeks of training put on it so the owner can better control the interactions between cat and dog?



> An experienced person with both dogs and cat can read the body language and know if it is going to work out or not. I've had dogs for over 20 years, and my family has also had dogs and cats together and we have never had eyes scratched like that. This is a dog forum so of course everyone will be worried about what is going to happen to the puppy and not care about the cat. Everyone has their own training techniques and methods, use what works for you.


A single family will ever only deal with the tiiiiiiiiiniest fraction of cat-dog interactions. An insignificant sample size not scientifically accurate and not something to base a logical opinion on. 

Vets on the other hand see a much bigger sample size of dogs than a single person/family ever will. Talk to a vet ophthalmologist. These type of cat to dog eye injuries happen often.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I think both commands are very useful. I'm sorry if yall got the impression I was advising the OP to NOT train her dog. She does need to train the dog and work with him too, but I also like some interaction to occur as long as it is safe and supervised. You don't need to be constantly nagging at the puppy though for just being curious.


My experience with puppies is that they won't hold a "place" very reliably at that age. They want to be up and moving. They can, however, figure out "leave it" with some patience and consistency. I think that's easier because they're still moving around and interacting with you, they're just being asked to change course away from the cat.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> No. After enough repetitions the dog learns that cats are off limits.
> 
> *Our 16 year old senior kitty walks away from play when she has had enough and our puppy acknowledges that play time is over and then goes and lays down too *
> 
> ...


*I'm sure vet ophthalmologists only know half the story :wink2:. They weren't there to witness the interaction. My guess would be most those cases those people didn't know how to either read cat or dog body language.*


*Again in response to below if "leave it" command works best for you then GREAT! By all means practice that at this age and use it. "spot" worked great for our puppy as you can see. Work with both the cat and the dog.*


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> This is a dog forum so of course everyone will be worried about what is going to happen to the puppy and not care about the cat. Everyone has their own training techniques and methods, use what works for you.


Nope. You don't get to go there. That's a completely unfounded claim given that multiple posters have spoken to keeping the cats safe, to not putting the burden of training on the cat, to not rehoming the cat and working with it if it doesn't get along with the dog. Yes, we're all concerned with the safety of an unknowing puppy, but I bet if there was an 11 week old kitten's safety at stake, people would be just as vocal.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Nope. You don't get to go there. That's a completely unfounded claim given that multiple posters have spoken to keeping the cats safe, to not putting the burden of training on the cat, to not rehoming the cat and working with it if it doesn't get along with the dog. Yes, we're all concerned with the safety of an unknowing puppy, but I bet if there was an 11 week old kitten's safety at stake, people would be just as vocal.


Listen to them and keep the dog separate until he's 80 lbs if you want a mauled kitty. I shared what worked with my dogs and my cats :smile2:, not much more to say here so I'm out!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

waterytart said:


> nope. You don't get to go there. That's a completely unfounded claim given that multiple posters have spoken to keeping the cats safe, to not putting the burden of training on the cat, to not rehoming the cat and working with it if it doesn't get along with the dog. Yes, we're all concerned with the safety of an unknowing puppy, but i bet if there was an 11 week old kitten's safety at stake, people would be just as vocal.


well said.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> My guess would be most those cases those people didn't know how to either read cat or dog body language.


Or perhaps they followed flippant and dangerous advice from an internet forum.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Listen to them and keep the dog separate until he's 80 lbs if you want a mauled kitty. I shared what worked with my dogs and my cats :smile2:, not much more to say here so I'm out!


False dichotomy and conceptually impoverished at best. I would challenge you to think in a more nuanced way and to understand that there is more than one way to skin a proverbial cat. 

You're also just plain wrong in your claim that nobody cares about the cat. There are multiple posts on this thread that counter said assertion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I moved in with my husband with a HAD and he had two declawed cats. So letting the cats defend themselves wasn't an option.

I put a baby gate into the girls' rooms with a kitty size hole in it because the cats liked to sleep with the girls and that way they had a place to escape. and we had a place where a litter box was safe.

When the cats came out I got after the dogs any time they bothered the cats.


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## silentbob1981 (Apr 6, 2017)

Sunshine702 said:


> Hi, please don't hate me. I just got an 11 week old GSD and I'm totally freaking out. I've been around older GSDs and loved them, but this puppy is making me crazy. She is sweet and adorable and then an absolute nightmare. She chases my cat so I have had to have them separated. She bites and chews on everything, myself included. I take her out every hour on the hour but she still will have accidents so I feel like I don't know how to house train. I have no idea how to make her listen, and I'm totally freaking out thinking I wasn't ready for a puppy, let alone a smart GSD puppy. I have to have her respect me. I have a trainer coming for a consult tomorrow and I'm considering boot camp. Can someone please tell me this is just because it's new? I feel like a total jerk and have spent hours on the internet trying to come up with a solution. She doesn't seem all that interested in treats as a way to train, so I'm at a loss. She just wants to chase, bite, pee, and then sleep.


Hey Sunshine! We have an 11 week old puppy as well, and she can do the whole personality switch thing too, so I feel you! I say it's like having a smart, drunk toddler in the house with shark teeth. I don't know what age you picked up your pup, but I've noticed over the past week that our girl has gotten stronger too, so those bites really hurt! And sometimes even when she's trying to be lovey and snuggley she flails her head and whacks me in the face and that hurts too! 

I just keep repeating that it's two steps forward, one step back. Eventually we'll get there! The cat thing is super frustrating, we have two and we've been trying to introduce them in short spurts. 

The crate is wonderful, as others have mentioned. We've sort of dumb-luck trained her into a few other things, and when those things work it makes us feel happy and proud and forget all our bite marks :wink2::


Sitting and waiting for her food, if she is sitting while I'm holding the bowl I praise and lower the bowl. If she jumps up I say "wait" (still keeping tone positive) and bowl lifts up. She has gotten really good at this and I am hoping it's a foundation. 
We have an X-Pen for safety and we put her there to cool off when she gets too wound up and bitey. She knows she has to sit and wait patiently if she wants out and I don't think I ever told her to sit there. I just start at a distance and when she sits I praise and move forward. If she jumps around I just wait her out in silence and then when she sits I praise and move forward. 
She has to sit and wait at the door before she goes out, she can't drag me out of the house
We are working on running in the yard where we race around and she doesn't bite my ankles. She will now sort of slide into a down which is adorable and then she gets lots of treats and praise and pets

There's an article in another thread here that helped when we were starting to get some post puppy blues. Link. 

Be kind to yourself and remember to take a break when you're frustrated. I know I make mistakes every day. I did so much research prior to bring her home, but just like when I had babies, in the heat of the moment that research sometimes is nowhere to be found in my brain! We're learning and so is she. 

Sorry this got so long! I hope you post some pictures of your pup!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunshine702 said:


> Hi, please don't hate me. I just got an 11 week old GSD and I'm totally freaking out. I've been around older GSDs and loved them, but this puppy is making me crazy. She is sweet and adorable and then an absolute nightmare. She chases my cat so I have had to have them separated. She bites and chews on everything, myself included. I take her out every hour on the hour but she still will have accidents so I feel like I don't know how to house train. I have no idea how to make her listen, and I'm totally freaking out thinking I wasn't ready for a puppy, let alone a smart GSD puppy. I have to have her respect me. I have a trainer coming for a consult tomorrow and I'm considering boot camp. Can someone please tell me this is just because it's new? I feel like a total jerk and have spent hours on the internet trying to come up with a solution. She doesn't seem all that interested in treats as a way to train, so I'm at a loss. She just wants to chase, bite, pee, and then sleep.


Sorry, OP. I'm going to circle back and try to leave you with something that's actually helpful. All of those things are normal puppy behaviors and your exhaustion and frustration are completely normal, too.

You might try targeting specific times for bathroom breaks instead of every hour on the hour. Right after she eats or drinks anything. Right after a play session, or even in the middle of one. Watch her behavior before she pees in the house, is she circling or sniffing? If she drops what she's doing and looks like she might be looking for a place to go to the bathroom, take her outside and see if she'll go.

The biting and chewing is normal. Give her stuff that's appropriate to chew. Ask the trainer about this because they will have better ideas than I will, but you might start teaching the "leave it" command. (Again, ask the trainer how to do this because they can show you with your puppy right there.) We started teaching a "no bite" which took awhile to sink in, but it did eventually. We did have to use a correction, but we also waited until pretty late because we got some bad advice from a force-free trainer. Ask your trainer about this too.

Circling back to the "leave it," that might well come in handy with the cat. Give the cat an escape route and a dog free zone. Cat will be less stressed if it knows that it has a safe space. Carefully supervise interactions if you let it happen now, and if you want to wait until you've gotten some advice from a trainer and put said advice in place for awhile, that's okay. The dog will not decide the cat is prey and kill it just because you wait to introduce them. It will be better in the long run if you do it slowly and correctly instead of rushing it now. And you should be comfortable with the approach and the timing, because if you're not, it will be harder to implement effectively and both animals will pick up on your stress. 

If the cat is stressed right now, you can try a pheromone collar and/or diffuser. From what I understand, these may lose effectiveness over the long term, but if they help the cat in the short term, that is worth something. We've used those tools intermittently with our cats over the years, and they do help. Make sure the dog can't access the litterbox or get between the cat and the box (the real fun begins if your cat stops using the box). Try to spend some time with your cat, sans puppy, in the cat's safe/dog-free zone. Even just ten minutes a day that's all about them. 

Good luck! It will get easier, I promise.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Two things, I am not here to pick on anybody, I am posting because I see potentially harmful advice being given out that could result in serious injury or worse. The second reason is that although some of the advice can be reasonable with the right kind of dog, keep in mind as somebody posted on another thread recently, when one comments, that there are other people lurking and the devil is in the details, i.e, many German Shepherds are high drive, one size does not fit all, and it should be emphasized.



GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Like I said all depends on the cat. My cats "correction" was always a soft pat pat on the puppys nose without her claws out. He completely respects her and knows to back off if he has gone too far.


It sounds like you have a very soft puppy to back off of a pat on the nose. Many puppies would take it as an invitation to play and others might see it as game on or worse.



voodoolamb said:


> No. After enough repetitions the dog learns that cats are off limits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Coming home to dead or injured pets when leaving two animals together is nothing new. Just because it has not happened to somebody, does not mean it is not a real or present threat. Some dogs have also been known to escape containment to cause serious injury or death to another pet when the owner is not home. 




WateryTart said:


> Nope. You don't get to go there. That's a completely unfounded claim given that multiple posters have spoken to keeping the cats safe, to not putting the burden of training on the cat, to not rehoming the cat and working with it if it doesn't get along with the dog. Yes, we're all concerned with the safety of an unknowing puppy, but I bet if there was an 11 week old kitten's safety at stake, people would be just as vocal.


Ouch! I agree! I have several decades invested in cat rescue specializing in special needs and feral cats. It is quite the experience to safely keep multiple working line German Shepherds in the same household as cats where one may for all intents and purposes appear normal, until forced to run, and then proceed to move in large circles or the most feral of cats that will take on an adult, protective German Shepherd if its only other alternative is to have contact with a human and other assorted fun times.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> I moved in with my husband with a HAD and he had two declawed cats. So letting the cats defend themselves wasn't an option.
> 
> I put a baby gate into the girls' rooms with a kitty size hole in it because the cats liked to sleep with the girls and that way they had a place to escape. and we had a place where a litter box was safe.
> 
> When the cats came out I got after the dogs any time they bothered the cats.


I would exercise a lot of caution putting faith in a doggie gate with a cat door. My one bitch averages 70-75#s and the other 80-85#s, both big girls, and either one of them will squeeze through the cat door.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would exercise a lot of caution putting faith in a doggie gate with a cat door. My one bitch averages 70-75#s and the other 80-85#s, both big girls, and either one of them will squeeze through the cat door.


I believe you, but I have so many questions. And I kind of want to see this.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> I believe you, but I have so many questions. And I kind of want to see this.


I bet you can find it if you search America Funniest Videos. In a lot of variations too.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> I believe you, but I have so many questions. And I kind of want to see this.


LOL It was a sight to behold but I would bet the scowl on my face was probably more interesting, or scary, when I saw the expensive gates failing over and over. I took them down and sadly never got video. :smile2:


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

*My last thoughts on this.. *



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Two things, I am not here to pick on anybody, I am posting because I see potentially harmful advice being given out that could result in serious injury or worse. The second reason is that although some of the advice can be reasonable with the right kind of dog, keep in mind as somebody posted on another thread recently, when one comments, that there are other people lurking and the devil is in the details, i.e, many German Shepherds are high drive, one size does not fit all, and it should be emphasized.
> 
> *This is true. And I feel like many members here have working high drive IPO dogs which probably wouldn't work well in a house with many kitties. We have 3 and do fine. Use COMMON SENSE, if either animals are tense you need to work on it and if new perhaps with a trainer would be best. This is what our trainer advised when we brought our puppy home and it turned out fantastic, our trainer advised the earlier you socialize them together the better and I couldn't agree more. Almost all of my training methods involve critical thinking, I want my dog to use his brain instead of constantly looking at me for the answers. I want to teach him right choices, not just how to behave when I'm around. I am not satisfied with just a "leave it" I want him to know WHY he is leaving it. You can argue all you want but you cannot argue with results. *
> 
> ...


*Yep if your poor cats life relies on a doggie gate your cat will be out of lives that day it falls down. This is why I say let interaction occur now before it is too late. Let the two animals learn to communicate and exist together. You might have to help along the way by interfering, telling the puppy leave it, or place or what have you. If your cats life depends on a little wooden fence you have NO BUSINESS owning a cat! You are building up that anticipation by keeping them separate. By letting them interact together the dog learns that the cat is just part of home and not all that interesting because she is always there and has always been there.*

*Now here is a video of my two interacting, notice my puppys interest in the cat? He realizes that the cat isn't interested in playing with him so he lays down. He is curious about her but respects her boundaries. If food were to drop on the floor in this house he would wait for the cat to eat it first. When he eats HIS FOOD if the cat comes over he moves out of the way and she eats out of his bowl. THIS is the way it has been with all of my dogs. The cat very early on asserted her dominance. A very IMPORTANT thing to notice is that both of these animals are relaxed, there is no in-tenseness to their body language. If the dog was intensely staring at the cat I would correct. Or if the cat was ready to run I would also interfere. KNOW your animals and you will be fine. And yes you betcha our guy jumped a woody baby gate with a plastic medical cone on his head! The baby gate isn't there for safety, it is for relaxation (and to keep him out of the poop and her food). And he has never tried to jump her fence  just his own fence when he was sick and locked up in the kitchen! Their favorite thing to do together is watch the squirrels. 




*


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Having a high drive IPO dog does not preclude someone from owning other animals. I own two high drive dogs that have trained in IPO that do just fine around other animals. Sorry, I get tired of people assuming that all dogs that do IPO are some sort of insufferable prey monsters that can’t settle nicely in a house and respect other animals.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Having a high drive IPO dog does not preclude someone from owning other animals. I own two high drive dogs that have trained in IPO that do just fine around other animals. Sorry, I get tired of people assuming that all dogs that do IPO are some sort of insufferable prey monsters that can’t settle nicely in a house and respect other animals.


No but my last dog was a high drive IPO dog and it certainly was much harder than dealing with a low prey drive dog especially for a novice.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> If food were to drop on the floor in this house he would wait for the cat to eat it first. When he eats HIS FOOD if the cat comes over he moves out of the way and she eats out of his bowl.


This is very dangerous advice.

If it works well in your home, that's well and good. 

Encouraging scenarios where German Shepherds and cats compete for desirable food is just asking for trouble.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> No but my last dog was a high drive IPO dog and it certainly was much harder than dealing with a low prey drive dog especially for a novice.


I did not realize you did IPO with your previous dog. Wasn’t your previous dog a service dog?

I guess I just haven’t found it all that difficult to train a dog with high prey to leave things alone.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> This is very dangerous advice.
> 
> If it works well in your home, that's well and good.
> 
> Encouraging scenarios where German Shepherds and cats compete for desirable food is just asking for trouble.


Not to mention, I would be concerned about my cats eating dog food and vice versa. They are formulated for the very different nutritional needs of distinct species. Dog food - even raw dog food - that is a complete meal _for dogs_ isn't great for my cats. Eating dog food also nets them extra calories they don't need when they are already fed appropriate amounts of food formulated for felines.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf

This is true. And I feel like many members here have working high drive IPO dogs which probably wouldn't work well in a house with many kitties. We have 3 and do fine. Use COMMON SENSE, if either animals are tense you need to work on it and if new perhaps with a trainer would be best. This is what our trainer advised when we brought our puppy home and it turned out fantastic, our trainer advised the earlier you socialize them together the better and I couldn't agree more. Almost all of my training methods involve critical thinking, I want my dog to use his brain instead of constantly looking at me for the answers. I want to teach him right choices, not just how to behave when I'm around. I am not satisfied with just a "leave it" I want him to know WHY he is leaving it. You can argue all you want but you cannot argue with results. 

Umm.. I did say I work in cat rescue, specializing in handicapped and ferals... that means my dogs mingle with an ever changing number of cats of different temperaments and disabilities. I am not the one arguing with results.


No my puppy is not a "soft" puppy. We have just allowed the opportunity to take place to allow him to think for himself. I don't like a dumb dog, this is how you teach common sense. Of course when he was 12 weeks old he wanted to play and you know what? Kitty said i'm not having any of that and jumped up on the couch and wouldn't you know it puppy learned when I push too far kitty goes away and that is no fun!

My high drive pup was four months old when I got her and had been raised with cats. She learned how to run on top of cupboards, wardrobes, cabinets and how to use a series of furniture tops to get on top of the refrigerator to follow kitty and all that on the day I got her an hour after getting off the plane. She was like a heat seeking missile. Good thing I was standing right there as it all happened in a matter of a few seconds. I caught her as she jumped off of the refrigerator. Gotta love those high drive dogs! I won't own anything else!


Coming home to dead or injured pets when leaving two animals together is nothing new. Just because it has not happened to somebody, does not mean it is not a real or present threat. Some dogs have also been known to escape containment to cause serious injury or death to another pet when the owner is not home. 

Gandalf: Put the dog in the crate if you aren't comfortable with it.

That is what I said, containment, crate, same thing. 


Yep if your poor cats life relies on a doggie gate your cat will be out of lives that day it falls down. This is why I say let interaction occur now before it is too late. Let the two animals learn to communicate and exist together. You might have to help along the way by interfering, telling the puppy leave it, or place or what have you. If your cats life depends on a little wooden fence you have NO BUSINESS owning a cat! You are building up that anticipation by keeping them separate. By letting them interact together the dog learns that the cat is just part of home and not all that interesting because she is always there and has always been there.

My "poor" cats? That is a bit insulting, no? My "poor" cats' lives never relied on a metal doggie gate that was bolted to the door frame. Their lives relied on my due diligence to manage and control the situation until the dogs were trained, and even then, my "poor" cats' lives NEVER were reliant on my faith in a high prey drive dog when I am not available.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> If the dog was intensely staring at the cat I would correct. Or if the cat was ready to run I would also interfere. KNOW your animals and you will be fine.


My problem is that you personally suggested for the OP to allow the cat to correct their puppy WITHOUT "knowing the animals" 



> You must allow interaction, the cat will correct the puppy herself. She will smack the puppy on the nose when she has had enough and puppy will learn on his own to back off. Of course supervise the interactions and make sure things don't go too far especially if you have a crazy cat


You set up the expectation that the cat will only smack the pup on the nose. That there is no risk or danger in doing this. 

Good for you that it worked for you, you got a lucky mix of animals and drives. But cat claws are sharp and eye balls are soft. 

I pointed out the reality of dogs being gravely injured by cats - Photographic evidence and a write up by an expert in veterinary ophthalmology about the very real problem of dogs, especially puppies just coming home, being injured during introductions. Other posters have expressed concerns of injuries for the cat.

In the big wide world out side of your home - cat/puppy interaction don't go as smoothly as yours did. We are responsible to the OP for painting a factual and true picture of what they can expect. That means looking outside the realms of out own narrow experiences - I have never had a cat scratch my dog's eyes either, but I am not so foolish to think it could never happen. 
@MineAreWorkingline has had more GSDs of varying drives and more cats of various temperaments than you and I will probably ever have in our entire lives. Combined. If she says a bit of advice about GSD and cat interactions is potentially harmful - I'd believe her. @WIBackpacker and @WateryTart also are cat and GSD families with dogs and cats of different temperaments and drives than yours. Bigger sample size = more accurate results.

Another cat scratched eye.


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## az_girl (May 21, 2017)

OP I am going through the exact same thing as you right now. Puppies are hard and GSD puppies seem to be extra HARD. Our 10 week old girl never stops. She needs constant attention, is always biting people, chews on everything and tries to stalk our cats as well. I feel like I could have written this post. Everyone says it’s worth it later but man, right now it just isn’t fun. For us I feel like the cat situation is most troubling. We just sent an email into the breeder to get some pointers. She gets laser focused on kitties, whines, sniffs them out looking for them, jumps up on ex pen to try and get at them, chases if she gets the opportunity, etc. it’s unnerving especially as a fist time dog owner. We have tried using a very strong correction with a choke chain, she didn’t care and went back for more. We let the cat bop her in the face, she thinks it’s fun. We are now using treats with redirecting her and asking for a sit/down when kitty is near to redirect her focus. Nothing is working. Not sure if it’s just a time thing or what. As for potty training, sounds like your pup needs to go out more often. Try every 30 min and see if that works. Apparently all of this stuff is temporary but I am commiserating with you because I am sorry, puppies are way more work than fun IMHO ?.


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## az_girl (May 21, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> There's another option, a much safer black & white one.
> 
> *Teach the dog that the cat is off limits, period.* Don't expect the dog and cat to become buddies. Some might, some never will.
> 
> ...


How do you teach this to a 10 week old pup w a high prey drive?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

az_girl said:


> How do you teach this to a 10 week old pup w a high prey drive?


The trick for this I have found is to be vigilant about NOT allowing the behavior to happen during the training process. Chasing cats is a highly self rewarding behavior. Each time you allow it to happen it becomes that much harder to correct. This is especially true of higher drive dogs. Don't let it happen and it becomes MUCH easier to train to ignore the cats. Prevent not just the chasing either, but the entire prey sequence - fixating/eyeing them, stalking, getting into the pounce stance - all of it.

What that means for puppy training is it is important to keep the pup and cat separate unless you are able to totally control the situation. The pup should be on leash around the cat so it is physically unable to chase.

Then you work on building up the pup's impulse control, leave it commands, and other training. Once your pup is reasonably able to be controlled by commands - then you can introduce cat and dog (pup still on the leash). Keep the sessions short at first and build up.

When the pup shows interest in the cat - use your leave it command. Praise when the dog complies, correct if the dog doesn't. If you find yourself correcting more than praising - then you probably need to take a few steps back and work on leave it more. The cat is just too big of a distraction for the current level of training. 

Same principle of the 3Ds - Distance, Distraction, and Duration. Don't expect to just be able to throw dog and cat together after teaching the pup 1 session of "leave it" 

I have found with enough repetitions of leave it the dog will just stop trying.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

az_girl said:


> How do you teach this to a 10 week old pup w a high prey drive?


Voodoo summed things up well.

When the puppies are really young, you can start stacking the deck in your favor by working on focus and engagement games. Just keep the cat away. 

You want the puppy to be accustomed to looking to you, and playing with you - this will set you up for success around all different kinds of distractions in the future, including cats. 

I keep cat "resources" inaccessible to the dogs. They have their own water bowl, food bowl, and litter area. The dogs don't have access to that space, so the cats are never bothered or harassed when they're eating or using the box. No competition, no stress. 

When the puppy is a little older and starts to notice your cat in the other room, on top of the shelf, or wherever, you need to interrupt and stop all the behaviors that lead up to cat chasing. Staring at the cat, freezing solid / going motionless, ears flicked forward - all the body language that signals stalking or chasing is coming. 

You can continue to play focus games with the puppy in the presence of the cat, from a distance, and eventually closer and closer. 

As Voodoo said, the act of chasing the cat is extremely self rewarding and the dog will want to do it again and again and again. Your job will be soooooo much easier and your dog will learn MUCH faster if you use good timing and interrupt and correct the behaviors that lead up to chasing. Correcting a dedicated cat chaser is different. You have the opportunity to shape a 10 week old. 

No staring, no stalking, no fixating, ever.


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## az_girl (May 21, 2017)

Voodoolamb and WIBackpacker, thanks for the tips. We currently have separate feeding areas, have an ex pen stretched out to separate our living room and kitchen area from our bedroom /laundry so the cats can walk in peace between those areas. The second they walk by, the puppy sits and stares, barks and lunges and will sniff/track the cat. We jump up, say leave it, get between her and th cats, have her work a few commands, etc. we have even walked her by the cat on leash and she lunges towards them. Even with a very harsh correction (per our breeders advice) when she takes a step towards the cat, she could care less. She’s pops back up and tries to get to them again. She is so smart and docile otherwise, learning commands so quickly it’s crazy. But she will no leave the cats alone. How long does it take to know if you’re dog is going to have life long issues with cats?


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> Voodoo summed things up well.
> 
> When the puppies are really young, you can start stacking the deck in your favor by working on focus and engagement games. Just keep the cat away.
> 
> ...


I like this. I usually make sure there're no cats when I let my pup out to go potty, but sometimes I just forget and let her out to find that a cat is sitting at the front door

When we come in, sometimes one was already in the kitchen and just coming out, so, already having the leash on from outside, I make her sit. When she does that, I'll kneed down and give some calm praise with some chest rubs (she likes her chest being rubbed). If she's calm. I'll move her 2' closer to the cat and if cat stays put, then pup is put into sit again with some praise and rubs

I think I'll start putting her on her leash before going out, and that way I can correct any chasing that might occur. Because she still has trouble holding it for now, I can't put her in sit and wait, so hopefully the act of not being able to chase will start getting in her head that she doesn't get to chase the cats


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

az_girl said:


> Voodoolamb and WIBackpacker, thanks for the tips. We currently have separate feeding areas, have an ex pen stretched out to separate our living room and kitchen area from our bedroom /laundry so the cats can walk in peace between those areas. The second they walk by, the puppy sits and stares, barks and lunges and will sniff/track the cat. We jump up, say leave it, get between her and th cats, have her work a few commands, etc. we have even walked her by the cat on leash and she lunges towards them. Even with a very harsh correction (per our breeders advice) when she takes a step towards the cat, she could care less. She’s pops back up and tries to get to them again. She is so smart and docile otherwise, learning commands so quickly it’s crazy. But she will no leave the cats alone. How long does it take to know if you’re dog is going to have life long issues with cats?


Whhhooooooaaaaaaaa

This post really concerns me.

2 things



> Even with a very harsh correction (per our breeders advice) when she takes a step towards the cat, she could care less.


This pup is WAAAAY too young for "harsh corrections". I really don't do ANY "corrections" per se on pups that young. They need to be taught WHAT is expected of them first. 

I'm afraid to ask... but how are you administering these "harsh corrections"????



> We jump up, *say leave it*, get between her and th cats,


THIS is a really good way to make "leave it" a command that the dog is taught they can CHOSE when and when not to obey it. It's really important to not give a command unless you can reinforce it. Sounds like you need to go back to square one on leave it and sloooowly work your way up to cat level distractions. 

It's going to be really important to prevent this behavior:



> The second they walk by, the puppy sits and stares, barks and lunges and will sniff/track the cat.


You have to interrupt this sequence! Don't let the puppy practice these behaviors.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

az_girl said:


> Voodoolamb and WIBackpacker, thanks for the tips. We currently have separate feeding areas, have an ex pen stretched out to separate our living room and kitchen area from our bedroom /laundry so the cats can walk in peace between those areas.


An opaque barrier will be more helpful than a see-through wire ex-pen, in this case. You want the cat out of sight, out of mind, so you can work with your puppy, and your puppy can also develop good calm household manners. Your living room is not a wild hunting ground - you don't want to condition your puppy to expect it to be one. 



> The second they walk by, the puppy sits and stares, barks and lunges and will sniff/track the cat. We jump up, say leave it, get between her and th cats, have her work a few commands, etc.


Okay, here's the tricky part. The devil is in the details, and _timing_ is everything. By the time your puppy has jumped up and is lunging or sniffing or following the cat, your best opportunity to interrupt the behavior has already passed. 



> we have even walked her by the cat on leash and she lunges towards them.


Same problem here: _Timing_. By the time the puppy is already lunging, you missed your opportunity to block the behavior. All you're doing at this point is damage control.

A trainer I use has an excellent way of talking about leashes, I'll do my best to explain it. It is very easy to rely on a physical leash, and use it as a crutch. Picture a person walking down the road, texting on their cell phone, leash wrapped around their wrist, while the dog zooms back and forth sniffing mailboxes and watching squirrels and eyeing the mailman. If you got rid of that piece of rope, there would be zero connection between the human and the dog. 

The goal of training a puppy is to create a bond that forms a mental leash. You want your words and your body gestures to mean something to the puppy. Leashes are useful, but focus is more important.

Step back, get the cat out of sight, work on your puppy's focus. Name recognition. Hand-touch games. Focus games. Reward eye contact. Start small. Increase duration. 

Remove the cat from the entire equation for a week, or more - completely out of sight. 



> *Even with a very harsh correction *(per our breeders advice) when she takes a step towards the cat, she could care less. She’s pops back up and tries to get to them again. She is so smart and docile otherwise, learning commands so quickly it’s crazy. But she will no leave the cats alone. How long does it take to know if you’re dog is going to have life long issues with cats?


There is a time and a place for correction..... But this is a _10 week old puppy_.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

My pup at 9 months is still a pain with the cats. Non-aggressive, pushy, chaser.

Could it help if the cats and dog were separated visually on a crate and rotate until the pup has an active outdoor life and perhaps do some sort of structured crated introductions down the road a few weeks when the pup is tired? I know when my dog is good and tired he cares much less about what the cats are up to. Maybe even crate the cat and engage the dog in play over and over? If I could do it all over again I think that is an approach I would take, generally speaking, I know there would be more to it. 

Barking at the cats in the crate was an issue for us at one point around 5-6 months, all it took was a squirt bottle with water to end that.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Keeping the young pups tethered to you on a leash when out of the x-pen or crate should solve the kitty issue. Carry super good treats and when you can redirect away from the cat, a pizza party occurs just like when you take them outside on a lead for housebreaking. Hand feed all meals to bond and start teaching the pup that all good things are yours to give to them. Prevention, as others have said, is so much better than having to cure.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> az_girl said:
> 
> 
> > We jump up, say leave it, get between her and th cats,
> ...


All it really takes is one time for these smart puppies to learn that something is optional, and it will take a lot of effort to reiterate with them that no in fact it is not optional.

I agree with voodoo's advice - start from a distance with the very basics of "leave it" and don't bring the cat into it for awhile. Reinforce that this is not optional but don't set the puppy up to fail. You want the puppy to be successful, and you also want to be able to follow through and enforce if you need to.

I'm not a training expert, but I taught the basics of "leave it" as a game in which the puppy got a small party when she chose to turn away from whatever I was asking her to leave. I'd put a toy on the ground and of course my inquisitive puppy would approach. I would lightly tap her flank and say, "Leave it." I'd mark with, "Yes! Good leave it!" and a small treat (she's food motivated) when she turned her head toward me. As we built the skill, I asked a little more of her in terms of my expectations with something tempting, like a cat, and with respect to how much berth I wanted her to give the cat or other item. (We won't get into how my smart aleck dog who loves praise has made this into her own game, but she is pretty darn solid on "leave it" as an adult.)


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## az_girl (May 21, 2017)

Trust me, no one was upset as I was when correcting her. I felt like crap afterwards. I was following the directions of the breeder, who is very well respected and has 20+ years under their belt. As a new dog owner, I figured they know way more than I do about dogs and GSD's so I would do what she recommended. Obviously, I can't do anything to change what happened with the harsh correction but I will choose to approach things differently from here forward.

We do work on leave it with food, but I will continue this with toys as well (we do work on "out" when she has one in her mouth as well). I will place blankets over the ex pen so if they walk by, she won't see the cats. I will say, they like to be with us, so when I am watching the puppy and we are playing in the living room, one of the kitties may jump over the gate and go up on their scratching post so they can observe it all. Am I to not allow this? I hate to sequester the cats into a locked room for weeks.

I guess I don't understand how you make a command not optional? So if you say leave it and they don't, what is the correction? If you say come and they don't, I have been pulling on leash and calling her in a sing song voice while gently dragging her to me? Is that too harsh? If the dog looks at the cat because the puppy is crated for the evening in your room and cats jump up on the bed for bedtime and you are 5 feet away, what is the proper process? Does dog need to be crated in a different room with zero cat exposure during that week or two of no contact? I just see it being very difficult with a one story, super open concept home to have dog and cat 100% separated because ultimately the cat will get the short end of the stick bc puppy has someone with her 100% of the time which would mean kitty has to get locked up in a different room.

I am open to any and all suggestions! And again, I so would love to know what type of time frame we are looking at? A few weeks? Months? Years?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

az_girl said:


> I guess I don't understand how you make a command not optional? So if you say leave it and they don't, what is the correction? If you say come and they don't, I have been pulling on leash and calling her in a sing song voice while gently dragging her to me? Is that too harsh? If the dog looks at the cat because the puppy is crated for the evening in your room and cats jump up on the bed for bedtime and you are 5 feet away, what is the proper process? Does dog need to be crated in a different room with zero cat exposure during that week or two of no contact? I just see it being very difficult with a one story, super open concept home to have dog and cat 100% separated because ultimately the cat will get the short end of the stick bc puppy has someone with her 100% of the time which would mean kitty has to get locked up in a different room.


If my dog decides she thinks a recall is optional, I don't correct or get angry, but I go and get her and bring her with me to where I had been standing and have her sit in front of me. "I said, 'Come.'" (Calm but no nonsense voice.) I do praise when she sits (just a "good front"); I want her to understand when she does do something that's expected, that she is doing right. If my dog decides "leave it" is optional, I go and move her away from whatever it is. "I said, 'Leave it.'" (Again, calm but no nonsense.) When she's focused on me again, "Good leave it." Essentially if she doesn't obey, I call her on it. Not angrily, but "hey, I asked for this and I expect it."

With respect to separating the animals, weigh out the risks here. A temporarily confined kitty is better than an injured pet of either species. Obviously it isn't fair to the cat to do this for months or years, but it's not wrong to devote a few weeks to really building a solid foundation with the dog and gradually working up to letting the cat loose again, with some kind of dog free zone. I know it's hard with an open concept, single story house. I had gates and doors to keep an entire floor of the house plus certain rooms on the main level dog-free zones, and that really did make this easier. My puppy was never aggressive so much as curious, either, and that also helped. It's harder when the puppy thinks the cat is fun to chase or when you can't effectively compartmentalize your space.


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## az_girl (May 21, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> If my dog decides she thinks a recall is optional, I don't correct or get angry, but I go and get her and bring her with me to where I had been standing and have her sit in front of me. "I said, 'Come.'" (Calm but no nonsense voice.) I do praise when she sits (just a "good front"); I want her to understand when she does do something that's expected, that she is doing right. If my dog decides "leave it" is optional, I go and move her away from whatever it is. "I said, 'Leave it.'" (Again, calm but no nonsense.) When she's focused on me again, "Good leave it." Essentially if she doesn't obey, I call her on it. Not angrily, but "hey, I asked for this and I expect it."
> 
> With respect to separating the animals, weigh out the risks here. A temporarily confined kitty is better than an injured pet of either species. Obviously it isn't fair to the cat to do this for months or years, but it's not wrong to devote a few weeks to really building a solid foundation with the dog and gradually working up to letting the cat loose again, with some kind of dog free zone. I know it's hard with an open concept, single story house. I had gates and doors to keep an entire floor of the house plus certain rooms on the main level dog-free zones, and that really did make this easier. My puppy was never aggressive so much as curious, either, and that also helped. It's harder when the puppy thinks the cat is fun to chase or when you can't effectively compartmentalize your space.


Thank you for the kind, thoughtful advice! Thanks for explaining what you mean by making them do it. Makes sense! I have already caught myself calling her name three times and thinking, well now I am just beating a dead horse, so get up and go get her! Sounds like this is the right thinking all along.

Its so emotional and hard! I knew there would be an adjustment period, but I didn't think this dog/cat intro was going to go as south as it has (IMO). You are right though, separating for a few weeks is better than an injury or long term issues! Guess its time to buy lots of gates and towels to cover gates!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

az_girl said:


> Thank you for the kind, thoughtful advice! Thanks for explaining what you mean by making them do it. Makes sense! I have already caught myself calling her name three times and thinking, well now I am just beating a dead horse, so get up and go get her! Sounds like this is the right thinking all along.
> 
> Its so emotional and hard! I knew there would be an adjustment period, but I didn't think this dog/cat intro was going to go as south as it has (IMO). You are right though, separating for a few weeks is better than an injury or long term issues! Guess its time to buy lots of gates and towels to cover gates!


I'm not sure whether you're there, but I was also really sleep deprived during the first several months I had my puppy. I was primary caregiver, which meant if she needed to go out at 2 AM (or 1 AM and then 4 AM), I got out of bed to do it. I was also not really sitting down much during waking hours. My brain was not firing on all cylinders. It isn't easy at first!

Also, remember that perfect is the enemy of good. I had so many expectations of my puppy that weren't really realistic. I somehow managed to still be pretty fair to her despite that, but I had to remind myself a lot that she really wasn't doing so badly, she was just learning. It's a learning curve for both of you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

az_girl said:


> I guess I don't understand how you make a command not optional? So if you say leave it and they don't, what is the correction? If you say come and they don't, I have been pulling on leash and calling her in a sing song voice while gently dragging her to me? Is that too harsh?


From what I see in your posts is that you are using the command in real world situations before the pup has had enough practice with it and enough maturity to follow through. Remember you have a _puppy_ can you expect a toddler to follow rules and instructions they way you could an elementary student? What about when home quietly vs at Chucky Cheese? 

What I do with young pups is to physically manage them to prevent unwanted behavior, in the case with cats using baby gates, leashes, closed doors, etc - WHILE training them with the goal of training to take the place of the physical means of control when the pup is ready. That can be a few weeks or a few months, just depends.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I think a good thing to keep in mind with a puppy, or dog, is that mistakes or the puppy not doing the behavior you cued is not a "bad" thing it is information. If you just called your puppy and she did not come you just got informed that she either does not fully understand your cue, maybe is too aroused, or maybe is not as rewarding as what she is currently doing. 

I'm not sure that "making them doing it" is the best mindset. Remember your puppy is still learning, and if she doesn't respond the way you want it is likely isn't because she is choosing not to and needs to be shown who is boss. Her not doing what you ask at this stage should be a cue to you that you need to keep working on building a more reliable response to that cue. I likely would not drag a puppy to me if I said come and they didn't, that's getting in a battle of wills territory and not a good route with a strong willed breed. I'd move closer if they seemed to be distracted or maybe run away or just have a party by myself until they came over to see what I was up to. Then the next time I said come I would make sure I set the puppy up so they could not fail or maybe event take a step back and build up more value for me before testing the recall again.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Bramble said:


> I think a good thing to keep in mind with a puppy, or dog, is that mistakes or the puppy not doing the behavior you cued is not a "bad" thing it is information. If you just called your puppy and she did not come you just got informed that she either does not fully understand your cue, maybe is too aroused, or maybe is not as rewarding as what she is currently doing.
> 
> I'm not sure that "making them doing it" is the best mindset. Remember your puppy is still learning, and if she doesn't respond the way you want it is likely isn't because she is choosing not to and needs to be shown who is boss. Her not doing what you ask at this stage should be a cue to you that you need to keep working on building a more reliable response to that cue. I likely would not drag a puppy to me if I said come and they didn't, that's getting in a battle of wills territory and not a good route with a strong willed breed. I'd move closer if they seemed to be distracted or maybe run away or just have a party by myself until they came over to see what I was up to. Then the next time I said come I would make sure I set the puppy up so they could not fail or maybe event take a step back and build up more value for me before testing the recall again.


Oops. This is a really good point. A really, really good point. Mine was an adult before I ever needed to call her out for not responding to a recall (I know, it sounds implausible), and I knew that she knew darn well what I was asking. 

Sorry, @az_girl, listen to Bramble instead!


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I've kinda reached the point where if my puppy doesn't do the behavior I cued it is not the end of the world, but information. My puppy just told me something and I need to listen not jump to the conclusion that they are bad, dominant, stubborn, ect... Most likely I did a poor job at teaching them or pushed them too far and I need to do some problem solving and break things down so they can be successful. I try not to assume with a puppy they know any behavior 100%, because in reality a few weeks or months or reinforcing a behavior likely isn't a long enough reinforcement history for me to realistically make the leap to say yup they know what I want and are choosing not to do it. I try to look at those moments as an "I don't know how to do this" rather than and "I won't do this". If you are teaching someone and they say I don't know how that will get a totally different emotional response than I won't do this. The first one shifts you into okay how can I explain this better and the later just makes you want to smack them with something, lol.


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