# Distancing himself after training....



## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Ok, so had his first ''Training class'' last night. The trainer came to our home to asses his behavior and get to know him a little before we worked on a few things inside before a walk. 

He's 4, And apparently he's above my wife in the pack order, but not myself (YET - She said he seemed confused about his place) 

He practiced waiting whilst we put his colar/lead on and off until he could do it patiently without jumping around exited and dragging us to the door, then he practiced waiting for us to open a door and walk through it without pushing past us to the door. 

After that we showed her how, If we're sitting on the sofa he will want to be there, in our faces crying for attention, to be up in between us and so on, she advised if we don't want him there, just gently push him away and tell him no, so we done this a few times and he sort of got the hang of it. 

Since then we've started establishing what should apparently be ground rules; 

He sleeps by me on the bed - no longer allowed? 
If he comes up to the sofa - Don't let him?
If he comes for attention - Send him away?

Now, I think those are all things that should be OK - but on my terms? 

He's now decided he wants to stay out of our way, doesn't want attention and will shy off when we approach him?? doesn't seem good?!

If I ask him onto the bed, The sofa or if he comes for a stroke, Surely thats fine? 

I feel like I'm being asked not to love my dog to correct his behaviour problems? Is it right to question when I give my dog attention? 

some honest suggestions please?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What was the issue causing you to hire a trainer?

My dogs sleep with me, come up to me for love ect. No problem. But also no behavioral problems associated with it. The pup can be a little too pushy and demanding about getting in our faces for attention and we have recently set some new rules about that which he is adjusting to fine. 

Sometimes it is necessary to stop giving out so much free attention and affection if the dog is not sufficiently motivated in training because why work hard for something they can get free and on demand.

My dog would get kicked off the furniture in a heartbeat if he ever refused to move if I needed him to or copped an attitude about it.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

He pulls on the leash alot and doesn't like strangers, or dogs, we have only had him a year, don't know his past and he's tried to bite a few people (not made a point of going up and biting someone, he's been pestered etc) We just found out we're expecting a baby and where advised to get him through some training lessons to ensure he's on point and behaving as he should in 7 months time. 

He will move when he's told, but a few times my wife has went to stroke him whilst he's been on the sofa or the bed with her and he's growled or gave made it known he wanted her to leave her alone - my opinion was just tell him to get off and dont touch him? 

Either way - he needs leash traning and socialising with people and dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well I obviously do 'tknow enough about your trainer to be able to say whether they are any good,

But the dog has growled at your wife who is now pregnant and this absolutely warrants total overhaul. In my opinion losing furniture privileges is totally appropriate. It will be easiest for the dog to understand no more furniture period and safest for your wife....heaven forbid there if a conflict with the dog while she has a baby in her arms. 

As for giving affection, is your trainer trying to implement Nothing in Life is Free? If so I would agree with that, too. Is the trainer saying don't dver pet the dog, or....?

I think the most important thing is that you do anything and everything you can do to support your wife with this dog so there is no conflict.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

James1892 said:


> Ok, so had his first ''Training class'' last night. The trainer came to our home to asses his behavior and get to know him a little before we worked on a few things inside before a walk.
> 
> He's 4, And apparently he's above my wife in the pack order, but not myself (YET - She said he seemed confused about his place)
> 
> ...



Sounds like the trainer is doing something similar to NILIF. Trust the system. After all that's why you chose this trainer right?


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Can you take things away from him? Has he been around children? Children will pester a dog.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Ah I must say, It was a few month before we found out she was pregnant the dog had his episode, he was rightly punished at the time(told off, not allowed up etc) 

So is it fair to say if I call the dog, ask him to sit and give him attention, then Its fine as he's sort of worked for it?

I agree with just sticking with it too! Just feels a bit weird not being ''best pals'' with the dog - as my wife calls it ha. 

She basically said give him attention at the right times - Maybe I should have asked when the right time is!! 

Yea the trainer has had good results with GSD's so we went with it.. I mean what she does is making him better behaviour wise .. maybe I'm over thinking it and I'm afraid it will damage our bond!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes we can take anything from him, I can sit next to him when he eats, remove it, put it back and so on, same with toys, blanket and so on, if he has a toy and thinks its a game of tug, he gets told to ''leave it'' and he does. he's good in that manner

he's walked by children on his walks, a toddler ran up and cuddled hit once (Totally caught me off gaurd as she came from behind a car I never saw her) he's never bothered, but i've never intenionally involved him with children as nobody I know has any!!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

James1892 said:


> Ok, so had his first ''Training class'' last night. The trainer came to our home to asses his behavior and get to know him a little before we worked on a few things inside before a walk.
> 
> He's 4, And apparently he's above my wife in the pack order, but not myself (YET - She said he seemed confused about his place)
> 
> ...


I'd forget about pack order. What you're really looking for is clear black and white rules. What the trainer is probably seeing is a dog that's unsure about things in general and is feeling his way around and trying to figure it out for himself by the way he comes for attention or pushes up onto the couch. I think its better if instead of creating a cycle of trying to stop him from doing things, you concentrate on teaching him what to do.

Come here when you tell you and then he'll get attention, not when he's nervously pushing for it helps make coming when called mean more to him. Giving him a spot to lay and relax away from you on the couch teaches him to relax in his surroundings instead of needing you're reassurance. 

Some dogs are fine with being on the furniture, some it just leads to confusion and its better to keep certain boundries and a routine that they can count on before you have the baby. There's always a balance, its not like you shove him away anytime he comes near you, but the trainer is probably seeing something in the way he's doing it that isn't exactly like he's just happy to be there.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes I see where you're coming from, As if he's getting rewarded with attention for coming when called for? I have been teaching him to lay down on a blanket when we are on the sofa, he gets the hang of it and will lay wherever it is, but sometimes still comes looking to be up, or get attention. 

Yea the routines and boundry thing, we thought that hence hiring the trainer to make sure we addressed everything. He's going to get two classes a week.. hopefully he responds well!


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

We have an 11 1/2 year old French Bulldog who has been on NILIF for... let's see - 11 1/2 years! He resource guards, including people's laps, beds, chews, everything. He never gets petted or picked up or fed or anything unless he works for it. He must sit, or lie down, etc. If he is put on the floor off our lap and growls, he is crated for a time out. Eleven and a half years. Yup. It is just part of life. He is not toy oriented, so the other dogs can have toys. But absolutely no Bully sticks, elk horns, etc. Those are given while the dogs are crated. With our other dogs, they are not on NILIF, because it is not necessary. Every dog is different.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It is completely normal for your relationship to change a bit when implementing new rules and boundaries. 

Being on the bed and couch are PRIVILEGES he has to earn! 

Most of the "affection" we give dogs is for us, not them. It makes US feel good. Setting expectations now, and solidifying behaviors before the baby comes will be a huge blessing once the baby is born. You and your wife are going to go into crazy protect mode when the baby comes homes. Changing things then, will confuse the dog and cause problems. So get him used to it now. The baby will be in the bed and on the couch. The dog should not be. 

Sounds like your trainer has a good plan. I would stick with it. 

CONGRATS on the baby!! Very exciting!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

As others have stated any dog that is having behavioral issues ... should not be allowed on furniture much less the bed ... period. It sounds like your trainer is fine?? But he comes twice a week and you live with the dog 24/7 you could be undermining there efforts??

Rather possibly undermining them you could compliment there efforts by "instituting a "No Free Roaming in the House policy." And training "The Place Command" and doing "Sit on the Dog." Those last two help to train "Calmness into a dog" a quote from "bailiff who is a "Pro" on here also.  

At any rate "Rules Structure and Limitations" are what all dogs need and if he were at a full time board and train ... that would be happening. But he's not ... that does not mean you can't do the same. Looks like this.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yea he seems to be responding well. I managed his walk last night without him pulling much, and when he did he stopped upon correction - Like people have said, correction with a tug of his leash and a ''tssh'' noise and he'd be right. 

This morning he didn't want to go for his walk, he sulked off and went and lay down - this was after he came, sat and waited nicely for me to put his muzzle on ha, then I got 3/4 of the way round his walk before he became hard work, and again was getting better with correction, I had to take his muzzle off though as he has made the top of his nose bleed trying to get it off. 

He has been corrected for trying to come onto the bed last night but gave up and came to sleep on the floor by the bed, and he hasn't tried to get on the sofa for 2 days now. He's still coming for attention, So I ask him to sit, give a paw or something before I pet him. 

I think persistance has worked, but a few times, when I've just been talking to him he's looked at me like he's terrified!! whats that about? we're not being rough with his training or anything. 

This is a fun yet strange learning curve for both of us!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Also, I forgot to ask - should I be taking him on long walks for leash training or do it in short spells?? or every walk?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

No wonder he doesn't want to go for a walk if he is wearing a muzzle that makes his nose bleed....

He needs a new muzzle.... 

Is there a part of your training program where you are teaching this dog what you want him to do and rewarding behavior you like?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wait the dog bloodied his own nose trying to paw off the muzzle?

In that case, use food and train him to wear the muzzle without fighting it. There are lots of youtube videos on this.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yea he tries to get it off, 90% Of the time he's alright with it, he's not fussed about putting it on, He doesn't respond to treats or food, Just general positive attention seems to make him happy, this is what I do;

Get myself ready for his walk - call him to the door, ask him to sit - reward with good boys and pets etc
Tell him to stay whislt I put his muzzle on ( no problem ) - reward as above
Tell him to sit and stay when I want to put his leash on him - reward
Open the door, leave the house ask him to sit whilst I lock the door - reward
We then walk and as we are going, if his behaviour is good, I tell him and pet him, ask him to sit and pet him some more etc.

I really struggle with the ''treat/food'' thing as a reward - works great indoors but outdoors he isn't interested, just turns his head.

He only really responds positivly to attention and a ball - ball makes him hyper so its sort of ruled out.

Its difficult (from my point of view) as I'm also learning as we go, I'm bound to make mistakes along the way. 

should I persist with treats and see if it gains a positive reaction?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just something to think about James, but when you guys have the baby, I'd be surprised if this dog is comfortable around him or her. If you look for advice on that, there's generally 2 different approaches mentioned. Show the dog the baby=good or teach him the babies mine, don't touch. I'm of the opinion dogs temperaments will tell you whats right, they either like and respect babies and kids, or they don't. With the latter, you just show them they have to tolerate, don't look to create some bond that isn't there. That's kind of in line with how this trainer is working with you, and just bluntly, a dog that needs a muzzle isn't getting with in 3' of my baby, period.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Just something to think about James, but when you guys have the baby, I'd be surprised if this dog is comfortable around him or her. If you look for advice on that, there's generally 2 different approaches mentioned. Show the dog the baby=good or teach him the babies mine, don't touch. I'm of the opinion dogs temperaments will tell you whats right, they either like and respect babies and kids, or they don't. With the latter, you just show them they have to tolerate, don't look to create some bond that isn't there. That's kind of in line with how this trainer is working with you, and just bluntly, a dog that needs a muzzle isn't getting with in 3' of my baby, period.



Steve - I don't know why she's asked us to train him with a muzzle, Our trainer said get a muzzle and a slip leash so we did! He's snarled at the wife once, months ago, didn't bite ... I'm not expecting to create a bond between the child and the dog, but I don't want to damage the bond between myself and the dog by training him to do things such as walk calmly on the leash, know his boundarys etc using certain methods. 

Surely training him to walk nicely stops him choking himself everytime we go for a walk! got to be better for him, and me?!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

James1892 said:


> Steve - I don't know why she's asked us to train him with a muzzle, Our trainer said get a muzzle and a slip leash so we did! He's snarled at the wife once, months ago, didn't bite ... I'm not expecting to create a bond between the child and the dog, but I don't want to damage the bond between myself and the dog by training him to do things such as walk calmly on the leash, know his boundarys etc using certain methods.
> 
> Surely training him to walk nicely stops him choking himself everytime we go for a walk! got to be better for him, and me?!


Sure, with clarity he'll be your loving best friend, but his temperament will still be a dog that a trainer decided needed a muzzle. What I mean is his good behavior with you is one thing, how he reacts to the baby could be completely different, but subtle enough you don't realize it.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Ah yea I get that, Only thing is I can't teach him right for wrong regarding a baby til its arrived  

I can however get his bahavior in order so when the time comes, I only need to train him how to act around the baby.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

James1892 said:


> Ah yea I get that, Only thing is I can't teach him right for wrong regarding a baby til its arrived
> 
> I can however get his bahavior in order so when the time comes, I only need to train him how to act around the baby.


You want to get a dog's behavior under full control that has snarled at your wife once in the past and train him how to act around your baby. Personally, just me, if I have to train a dog how to behave around a baby, with no way of knowing if the training will always hold, that dog would not be in my house. I'm just being honest in my own opinion. It sounds to me from what you've said you don't have full control so I am assuming your wife does not have control over this dog. And it will be your wife at home alone with the baby and the dog, correct? I think you need to think about this very carefully. And congratulations on the baby!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mycobraracr said:


> Sounds like the trainer is doing something similar to NILIF. Trust the system. After all that's why you chose this trainer right?


That's exactly what I was thinking as I read the post. It's not that you can't give your dog attention and affection, you just do it on your terms, not his. I've used NILIF for years with several different dogs. I start out fairly strict from a young age and then loosen up as I see fit once I know more about the temperament of the dog as it matures. 

Eventually, I end up with a lot of default behaviors, where my dogs understand the rules and comply with them without me constantly having to remind them. They know to sit and look at me as I put their food bowls on the floor and wait to be released to eat, they sit and look at me at the front door after I've put on the leash and wait while I open the door until I release them to go through, if I'm holding a bully stick they have to look at ME and completely ignore it until I say okay and give it to them, etc. They know what works to get what they want. 

Nothing in Life is Free

That being said, I do give my dogs attention on demand all the time now that they're both adults because I don't have any rank issues. By doing tons of foundation stuff from puppyhood is a great preventative, and avoids having to deal with issues after they've already become intrenched.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Deb said:


> You want to get a dog's behavior under full control that has snarled at your wife once in the past and train him how to act around your baby. Personally, just me, if I have to train a dog how to behave around a baby, with no way of knowing if the training will always hold, that dog would not be in my house. I'm just being honest in my own opinion. It sounds to me from what you've said you don't have full control so I am assuming your wife does not have control over this dog. And it will be your wife at home alone with the baby and the dog, correct? I think you need to think about this very carefully. And congratulations on the baby!



Thanks for the congratulations! I'm with you 100% when we rescued him it was basically us or be destroyed - he was used as bait, badly injured and was extremely fearful of everything. he's a million times better than he was and we're hoping he can continue. yes he had a misshap - nobody is perfect right? so we will keep at him, he adores us, genuinly he will let herself do anything with him, he got a surprise when he snarled as he was asleep and she knocked him by accident, so we will continue to work on it. HOPEFULLY he gets it and keeps up the good work, but what is acceptable to us, prior to baby is totally different to whats acceptable with a baby in the fold. hence why we're starting as soon as we found out. 

I'll keep updating with his progress. hopefully good news follows!!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

James1892 said:


> Ah yea I get that, Only thing is I can't teach him right for wrong regarding a baby til its arrived
> 
> I can however get his bahavior in order so when the time comes, I only need to train him how to act around the baby.


Well, what your doing now is teaching him right from wrong and how to behave and then that doesn't change with the arrival of the baby. We're close to saying the same thing, but the difference is not changing things for him with the baby. Don't alter what your doing to try and create something new, depend on what you've already done. Does that make sense?


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Total sense  I agree get him in the mindset ready and we're winning. he's been fantastic tonight, he was a bit funny with fireworks, stragely he enjoyed the ones he could only see, but disliked the loud ones!! 

Whilst walking across the field I asked him to sit, he actually lay down and rolled over for a tickle! really weird, I'm not expecting miracles, or instant improvment, but he's certainly getting the hang of what we're doing!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

James1892 said:


> Thanks for the congratulations! I'm with you 100% when we rescued him it was basically us or be destroyed - he was used as bait, badly injured and was extremely fearful of everything. he's a million times better than he was and we're hoping he can continue. yes he had a misshap - nobody is perfect right? so we will keep at him, he adores us, genuinly he will let herself do anything with him, he got a surprise when he snarled as he was asleep and she knocked him by accident, so we will continue to work on it. HOPEFULLY he gets it and keeps up the good work, but what is acceptable to us, prior to baby is totally different to whats acceptable with a baby in the fold. hence why we're starting as soon as we found out.
> 
> I'll keep updating with his progress. hopefully good news follows!!


That's a dog I wouldn't have with a baby. I know you love him but you have no idea what you are going to be up against when you have a child. Please consider whether you are going to be able to keep both the dog and the baby safe. If anything bad happens, the dog will be put down.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's a dog I wouldn't have with a baby. I know you love him but you have no idea what you are going to be up against when you have a child. Please consider whether you are going to be able to keep both the dog and the baby safe. If anything bad happens, the dog will be put down.



Like wise if he is returned to the shelter. We where his last chance. Not going to give up on him


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I adopted an adult GSD mix who did quite a bit of growling and threatening. He snapped at me once early on. There was one night he and my husband were about to go at it. My husband shoved him to make him move in the bed. Dog took offense, growled, husband took offense and there was a moment where I saw them gearing up to go for each other. It was scary. I grabbed both and shoved them apart like breaking up a bar fight. Not that I necessarily recommend anyone try that at home, I could have been bitten badly for my trouble but it didn't happen.

I escorted the dog out of the room and he lost his furniture privileges for awhile. We did an overhaul on everything

In our case it was an epic mess of insecure dog who had been kicked from home to home (6 in 3 years), my husband manhandling him which was unfair and unecessary. This was a dog who would fight back if he felt he was being handled unfairly. He was also a resource guarder. With fair handling, good training, consistency, the dog was able to relax and become who he really was which turned out to be an incredibly wonderful mushbag who would tolerate nearly anything if you asked him nicely. He died of cancer in his old age, SUPER loved, he never bit anyone. We had kids aged 9 & 12 when we adopted him. He was superb with my nephew who he met as a toddler (wearing a muzzle until I was sure)

We figured out his quirks, did tons of behavior mod, I micro managed him for a couple years and took tons of precautions including muzzling him. He was not the scary, dangerous dog that we sort of thought he was right at first. He might have become a lot more dangerous with really confrontational training or handling. 

For what it's worth, there can be happy endings with some dogs who act like this. I hope you have a good balanced trainer. Take every safety precaution you can for the sake of your baby.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

James1892 said:


> Like wise if he is returned to the shelter. We where his last chance. Not going to give up on him


If you are motivated, you can find him another home now that you have worked with him and are moving toward good behavior with you. He still isn't there with your wife and the baby is an unknown. I felt the same way with our unpredictable foster/rescue. We were his last chance. By the time I worked with him for a year, he could have been rehomed but we were so attached, we kept him. I didn't have young children. If I had, he would have been rehomed, no question about it. Children are more important than dogs and I loved that dog too much to put him into a sitatuion he couldn't handle. I hope you can turn him around, but in my personal experience those dogs are managed not rehabbed.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You wouldn't be giving up on him. Look at far he's progressed since you had him. Your baby's safety has to be first. Unless you are 110% sure this dog is completely safe with a baby, with a toddler who will run up on him unseen by the dog, suddenly throw arms around his head, poke him in the ears or eyes when you don't expect it, pull his tail, ears, or hair, then you need to rethink who is more important, the dog or your baby who will soon by a toddler and a preschooler who runs, yells, may have temper tantrums, etc., things that all kids do at some point in time. You committed yourself to this dog, that's to be commended. Now you have a new commitment, a baby. Which comes first? Sorry, I'm just trying to be honest from my own point of view. I just want you to seriously think about this.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> If you are motivated, you can find him another home now that you have worked with him and are moving toward good behavior with you. He still isn't there with your wife and the baby is an unknown. I felt the same way with our unpredictable foster/rescue. We were his last chance. By the time I worked with him for a year, he could have been rehomed but we were so attached, we kept him. I didn't have young children. If I had, he would have been rehomed, no question about it. Children are more important than dogs and I loved that dog too much to put him into a sitatuion he couldn't handle. I hope you can turn him around, but in my personal experience those dogs are managed not rehabbed.




He's totally there with my wife, he had one growl.. They're doing well with the trainer, They are extremely close and she is home with him most days (works odd hours) and they have no bother.. I think he deserves a chance working with a proper trainer (he's my first dog, I've done my best reading and trying as I go) I think reading other peoples posts, That refreshing training is a must when expecting a first child anyway. 

Like you say, Positive training and managing him correctly, I'm sure he'll be fine. Its not like we'd leave him home to babysit! :O

The idea of the post wasn't concern over the dog/child thing, I felt for a few days that he suddenly became sheepish after training.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Deb said:


> You wouldn't be giving up on him. Look at far he's progressed since you had him. Your baby's safety has to be first. Unless you are 110% sure this dog is completely safe with a baby, with a toddler who will run up on him unseen by the dog, suddenly throw arms around his head, poke him in the ears or eyes when you don't expect it, pull his tail, ears, or hair, then you need to rethink who is more important, the dog or your baby who will soon by a toddler and a preschooler who runs, yells, may have temper tantrums, etc., things that all kids do at some point in time. You committed yourself to this dog, that's to be commended. Now you have a new commitment, a baby. Which comes first? Sorry, I'm just trying to be honest from my own point of view. I just want you to seriously think about this.


I don't think anyone could be ''110% sure'' I'd sooner give him a chance than have him destroyed for no reason. As I said, the reason behind training isn't my concern in this post.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm OK first a trainer that uses a SLL (my tool of preference) is fairly unusual??? That aside ... if she insist that the dog use a muzzle ... they should be able to give an answer for doing so.

I used one myself for my OS Wl GSD with H/A issues (I use the term Bubble Dog myself). A dog that needs to be muzzled for a time to be save in public. No big deal ... your trainer should be able to provide an answer as to why she feels the use of a muzzle is necessary. I had no issues with (Rocky) but at the time I was "unsure" if I could handle him if he chose to act a fool??? Hence the muzzle and yes "long walks" finding people to "ignore!" His job was to stand there calmly and "ignore" people. No treats no distractions ... his job was to do "Nothing" if I stopped and spoke to people. I learned and understood after many many long walks, what my dog looked like when he was comfortable and I dropped the use of the "Muzzle" in public after a bit. As it was no longer needed. 

I kept people out of his face, "No you can't pet my dog" after a bit I learned to read him. He understood that people were of no concern to him. I dropped the use of the muzzle in public after a few weeks?? You do have time here but you kinda sorta need to "insistent" on an answer from your trainer on the why of the muzzle?? If the dog scares the crap out of them ... they aren't of that much value to you!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm OK first a trainer that uses a SLL (my tool of preference) is fairly unusual??? That aside ... if she insist that the dog use a muzzle ... they should be able to give an answer for doing so.
> 
> I used one myself for my OS Wl GSD with H/A issues (I use the term Bubble Dog myself). A dog that needs to be muzzled for a time to be save in public. No big deal ... your trainer should be able to provide an answer as to why she feels the use of a muzzle is necessary. I had no issues with (Rocky) but at the time I was "unsure" if I could handle him if he chose to act a fool??? Hence the muzzle and yes "long walks" finding people to "ignore!" His job was to stand there calmly and "ignore" people. No treats no distractions ... his job was to do "Nothing" if I stopped and spoke to people. I learned and understood after many many long walks, what my dog looked like when he was comfortable and I dropped the use of the "Muzzle" in public after a bit. As it was no longer needed.
> 
> I kept people out of his face, "No you can't pet my dog" after a bit I learned to read him. He understood that people were of no concern to him. I dropped the use of the muzzle in public after a few weeks?? You do have time here but you kinda sorta need to "insistent" on an answer from your trainer on the why of the muzzle?? If the dog scares the crap out of them ... they aren't of that much value to you!



Yea, we found out today re muzzling - It's for when we try and help him be social with other dogs later but she though it would be good to get him used to them straight away whilst we leash trained, either way, he had to go to the vet for his meds today - after 6 walks using a muzzle he's not fussed by it and it made my life a **** of a lot easier putting one on in the car (Our vet has all dogs muzzled for injections regardless rules) 

what do you mean ''SSL'' ? 

So far, He's slowly getting better on the leash, alot calmer and hardly pulls, he accepts a muzzle with no fuss and is being alot more obedient around the house. 

We've been working on ''place'' and ''down stay'' with him throughout the day, which he's getting the hang of..


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SLL= slip lead leash


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

James1892 said:


> Yea, we found out today re muzzling - It's for when we try and help him be social with other dogs later but she though it would be good to get him used to them straight away whilst we leash trained, either way, he had to go to the vet for his meds today - after 6 walks using a muzzle he's not fussed by it and it made my life a **** of a lot easier putting one on in the car (Our vet has all dogs muzzled for injections regardless rules)
> 
> what do you mean ''SSL'' ?
> 
> ...


 The muzzle at the vet ... is neither here nor there. 

If that is that vet's policy then it's his policy ... that speaks more about the vet's comfort level with (real dogs) than it does a given dog. My (former) bubble dog is not muzzled at our vet and he (Rocky) has zero issues with the vet or his staff. If your good with him being muzzled at that vet ... it's a none issue. 

And sigh ... in yet again another one of "my here we go again post." Why are you messing around with the other dogs thing??? Pick your battles ... your engaging in a "battle" you don't have to fight. A dog does not need "Doggy Friends." 

The goal should be ... "Doggy Neutral" that dog means "nothing" to you dog! I don't do "Dog Parks" I don't do "Is your dog friendly" street hook ups. My policy is "I keep my distance you keep yours!" Works out fine and my dogs have no issues at the Vets or with unknown dogs while waiting in lines.

Other dogs can "Bark Bark Bark" in there face and they will get "Zero" response from my dogs. On the extremely rare occasions when I did let them "play with other dogs" they did just fine. "If" the other dogs are not "Butt Holes" they get no grief from my pack. 

I don't want to "cast aspersions at your trainer" ... but I can say the "Pro's" I tend to recommend that deal with "dogs with serious freaking issues" as I am want to say. Recommend to there clients "Just say no to *unknown dogs*!" Know safe dogs only ... if you must. 

SLL ... I "assume" everyone knows what that is ... my bad. Slip Lead Leash (my tool of choice) and if your trainer is using one (well that is highly unusual???) By and large most "Pro's" use and instruct there clients on the "proper" use of a "Prong Collar." Using a SLL "Properly" is more of an art than a science ... numbers don't lie! 

In anycase SLL ... here you go.:
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> The muzzle at the vet ... is neither here nor there.
> 
> If that is that vet's policy then it's his policy ... that speaks more about the vet's comfort level with (real dogs) than it does a given dog. My (former) bubble dog is not muzzled at our vet and he (Rocky) has zero issues with the vet or his staff. If your good with him being muzzled at that vet ... it's a none issue.
> 
> ...


Yea basically any dogs have to have muzzles, cats caged etc. He's great when he goes in, he knows the routing, goes up to the counter, gets his treat when he signs in, takes himself to the scales then goes in for his meds, its quite funny to watch actually, its like he doesn't need me there ha.. doesn't mind the vet either but I guess she has her reasons! 

Yea I totally agree with the doggy friend thing, at the moment if dogs barks at him he goes wild, so eventually she wants to walk him at a distance from one of her dogs to train him not to react to it being there, then allow us to walk together without him reacting, The shelter told us he was baited as a puppy/young dog and is extremely fearful of some breeds, we don't want him to be uncomfortable, Just ignore them really. He normaly gives it the tough guy impression til one gets close enough and he'll cower behind me, which is heartbreaking to see given he's such a happy dog!! 

AHHH the SSL makes perfect sence haha my bad. well over here (England) Prong collars are illegal, So thats ruled out straight away. The slip lead is working good.


I'll read over that link you shared  thanks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

James1892 said:


> Yea I totally agree with the doggy friend thing, at the moment if dogs barks at him he goes wild, *so eventually she wants to walk him at a distance from one of her dogs to train him not to react to it being there, then allow us to walk together without him reacting,*


That would be "known safe dogs only" absolutely perfect! I never had that luxury with my (clearly) Dominate American Band Dawg ... a fight looking for a place to happen ... "Dog Park" anyone??? But ...it never happened "ignore other dogs it was." And I never looked back. And a few years later when I wrangled up not one or two but three strays!! 

I had no choice but to let them in a (Jack Russell, Shih Tzu and a Shiba Inu!) On the front yard heading for the Freeway!! I was hoping to round up one or maybe two of them but when I called the one the others followed!  

They were well trained balanced dogs and so were mine, who were inside already so no time to clear the house! I told my guys stay and brought the round ups in. Released mine after a few minutes (Gunther and Struddell (Boxer) and everyone got along great. The only minor issue was the Shih Tzu, I don't think she liked Gunthers size?? So she would bark at him if he got close. He respected her space. I let the four dogs outside to play and the Shih Tzu, stayed with me. 

She went to greet one of the cats .. the cat hissed the Shih Tzu, turned his back on her came over to me and laid down. I looked down and thought "wow ... cool dog!" 

We found there home and loaded them up they had travel a 1.5 miles from home ... I was kind sad to see them go.  

But my point is ... my dogs had "never" been allowed to interact freely with any other dogs until that time. And they did just fine. My backyard was my own private "Dog Park!" If you have a known safe dog in the bank as it were ... there is "Zero" reason to mess around with unknown dogs. 





James1892 said:


> The shelter told us he was baited as a puppy/young dog and is extremely fearful of some breeds, we don't want him to be uncomfortable, Just ignore them really. He normally gives it the tough guy impression til one gets close enough and he'll cower behind me, which is heartbreaking to see given he's such a happy dog!!


 Well then he does have good reason for his behaviour but ... that was then this is now. All he needs is to know you have his back now! You do your job well and he will get that! 

Unintentional proof of concept on that one but ... as it happens ... you are following the same path "Rocky" and I had on our journey. And due to his "unexpected" by me "behaviour problems" ... there was no luv lost between us! 

But that changed when this happened ... :http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

Note ... the one on one long (structured walks, ignoring people and other dogs) doing that, I showed him what I wanted in the presence of people or other dogs ... "you do nothing dog" that is your "job." I did not use treats or distractions, a good boy or good girl was about it. My dogs don't get rewards for not being tools ... it's expected. They did get treats after the fact for good behaviour "Place" for instance. They got treats for doing "nothing!" A tip from "baillif" there (a pro on here). 

And the muzzle thing ... most likely you'll wonder at some point how long do you need to use it?? No one can say for sure?? But I can tell you what to look for ... on your walks ... your dogs demeanor. If you walk long enough and far enough, your dog will get it "this guy has my back." You ignore enough people and dogs (and the dog thing ... it's a quick "Sideways Tug" before he ramps up and keep moving" if he gets over the top ... you've lost the moment turn around and walk away! I have more details but that is the basic.) and you'll better understand what your dog looks like when he is not under stress. When you understand what he looks like when he is not under stress, then you can test using caution a no muzzle policy. 

In any case once the dog has trust is you he becomes much more manageable ... a verbal marker "NO" maybe all you need?? He'll go back to his default behaviour ... do nothing.  


And ... Rocky did not have issues with the Humans in the home. But the pack fights yeah that was on me ... a lack of structure. Indoors a problem dog should be in his Crate or in "Place." Rocky was able to start fights at will becasue he was allowed to "Free Roam." No Free Roaming is a "lock down" on appropriate behaviour you can't control the dog if you don't where he is??? Those are things I learned after the fact but I did get the HA thing right. So the "pack fights" were on me. I expected other dogs to be an issue also but they never were to any real degree. 

Minor hobby horsing in front of barking dogs behind fences but a leash pop on the top of the head solved that issue. That was a tip from "David Trainer" a mod K9 Handler on here ... worked out fine.  

Hmm Ok with all that ... done for now as always ask questions and welcome aboard. 



James1892 said:


> AHHH the SSL makes perfect sense haha my bad. well over here (England) Prong collars are illegal, So that's ruled out straight away. The slip lead is working good.
> 
> I'll read over that link you shared  thanks.


 Good to know and kinda of odd?? Since the tool is know as a British Slip Lead Leash ... I would think it would second nature over there???


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

James1892 said:


> He pulls on the leash alot and doesn't like strangers, or dogs, we have only had him a year, don't know his past and he's tried to bite a few people (not made a point of going up and biting someone, he's been pestered etc) We just found out we're expecting a baby and where advised to get him through some training lessons to ensure he's on point and behaving as he should in 7 months time.
> 
> He will move when he's told, but a few times my wife has went to stroke him whilst he's been on the sofa or the bed with her and he's growled or gave made it known he wanted her to leave her alone - my opinion was just tell him to get off and dont touch him?
> 
> Either way - he needs leash traning and socialising with people and dogs.


I personally don't like dog fur on the bed and furniture so I never let them on the couch and beds and such, plus the smell of dog lingers with you whether you smell it or not.
The leash pulling and acting out toward strangers and other dogs can be corrected in 10 minutes using a prong collar. It baffles me why so many people don't use this valuable, time and nerve saving tool.
A member posted a similar post a few days ago, a prong collar was recommended to them and they noticed a night and day difference in the dogs behavior. 

https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenge...WBVB7EX99XDT6J5W0&ie=UTF8&qid=1478480496&sr=1

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Julian I am pretty sure he said the prong is banned where he lives...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Julian I am pretty sure he said the prong is banned where he lives...


Yes ...yes he did.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Chip we're going with the ''safe dogs only thing'' to get him calm, then in all honest I'm not bothered if he has interaction with other dogs, If he sees them and ignores them, great! I've won. that will do me ha. 

With the muzzle, Like you say I'll have him get used to it ready for the ''safe dog'' thing, then once we're sure he gets it, and he doesn't need to bark at them, he won't need it. 

As for his behavior on walks, I have been doing like you said above, He gets a good boy if he does it right, a correction if he doesn't and he's getting the hang of it. I can walk at my pace without being dragged around or him choking himself half to death, so I suppose I'm on the right track. He also seems to be ignoring more dogs than he barks at.. which is good! My biggest battle at the moment is getting him to stay sat down whilst I open the gate and lead him back into the yard, He pulls like mad to get through, even trys to force it open with his nose, which isn't great when its locked. Its almost a fight to see who'll get through first, but I'm persisting and make sure he is sat and stays whilst I open the gate, and doesn't come through til I tell him. 

Looking forward to seeing how he progresses over the next few months! Lots of work ahead I think, but It'll be fun!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

James1892 said:


> My biggest battle at the moment is getting him to stay sat down whilst I open the gate and lead him back into the yard, He pulls like mad to get through, even trys to force it open with his nose, which isn't great when its locked. Its almost a fight to see who'll get through first, but I'm persisting and make sure he is sat and stays whilst I open the gate, and doesn't come through til I tell him.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing how he progresses over the next few months! Lots of work ahead I think, but It'll be fun!


Hmm, well it should not be a battle to get thru thresholds?? What you explain sounds right ...but something is off here??

Have a look here and listen to what Jeff says maybe it will help ... baby steps ... they all add up to success. 










Other that it sounds like you are making good progress.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yea I'll use that! Thanks Chip. 

Oddly, He's fine going in and out of any door in the house, by fine I mean he'll sit calmly, wait for me to open the door and lead him out, then sit whilst I shut and lock the door. Good right? 

BUT! when we get back from our walk, and I take him round the back of the house (to dry off etc) I think, he thinks he's being allowed to run around in the back garden. so he'll cry, pull, jump, push .. anything to get in the back! I stand my own, and I can have him sit, go through behind me, wait for me to lock it and so on, I can even leave him in a down stay outside whilst I unlock the door, get towels to dry him etc(it rains alot here) 

But that bloody gate!!! ha


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Any updates??


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Chip, A long one! 

Yea, we've had a few more classes, teaching him about how to behave, give us space when we want it, to leave things and give them back when he's told and not to go to things (toys) until he's told which is going well, we've done a lot of work with his manners, it seems a lot is to do with how we act with him, anything I was doing with him he would do straight away, but with my wife he was quite ignorant at first, but he's getting it. 

Our trainer asked, whilst muzzled, for us to give a object attention, calmly moving him away if he came into our space to see how he reacted, she said she wanted to see how far he had to be pushed before he reacted in a aggressive way (Don't see the point in poking a bear with a stick but she's the trainer) anyway, he didn't react at all and understood if we asked him to leave, he moved away and lay down. 

Once we'd established he acted in the correct way in that aspect we moved on to the item thing, making him leave and ignore something he wanted, before asking him to sit and giving eye contact before he could have it, we also done something similar with him but with ourselves picking it up without him racing to get it first. His response to this for myself was fantastic. no issues, it took about an hour for him and my wifre to get into the swing of it. but they have been practicing daily and he's doing it no bother for her too.

Lastly we worked how he should behave when someone comes into the house, the trainer came in and out of the house, and he had to stay calm and next to us, or in his spot, likewise when we got up to answer the door, he stayed. This is where it got interesting, He is being trained to notify my wife when someone knocks at the door (she's deaf without her hearing implants) so, we practiced leaving her in the house with the dog, when we knocked he has to go to her, paw her and lead her to the door, Strangly this is what he's finding easiest. 

Leash training is going great. he's doing really good, with the exception of barking at dogs, although he's ignored less than he's barked at since we started so thats good! 

Thankfully he is really enjoying it, when we are practicing him waiting for a treat, or his dinner or a toy, his tail is going 100 mph and although he remains calm, you can tell he's loving it. 

we've not worked outside yet, so a update on the dogs/gate thing will follow. but he's doing great, all of us are having alot of fun with the training!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dog and gate ... you can address directly and if done properly that is conflict free ... you say nothing and wait him out ... when he is calm then you enter! On the other hand most likely you have somehow taught him that this craziness is acceptable here (that gate)??

That is easily "testable" if your curious ... the dog "expects" to go through that gate. What happens if you don't?? Go up to the gate and wait if he acts like a tool don't enter that way. Go up to the gate if he happens to be calm .. dont enter in anycase. Sometimes you will sometimes you don't?? Randomize the event so he won't know if he is going on or not??? Just a thought .. it sounds like you are makig progress in any case.


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Dog and gate ... you can address directly and if done properly that is conflict free ... you say nothing and wait him out ... when he is calm then you enter! On the other hand most likely you have somehow taught him that this craziness is acceptable here (that gate)??
> 
> That is easily "testable" if your curious ... the dog "expects" to go through that gate. What happens if you don't?? Go up to the gate and wait if he acts like a tool don't enter that way. Go up to the gate if he happens to be calm .. dont enter in anycase. Sometimes you will sometimes you don't?? Randomize the event so he won't know if he is going on or not??? Just a thought .. it sounds like you are makig progress in any case.



Yea, well we always play ball in the back garden, so he gets excited at going in that way, if we go through the front (no good at the moment with weather he's soaking) he's perfectly calm. 

He's getting there with the gate and for another positive note on his behavior, my wife came out with us for his walk on saturday, he remained totally calm, walked as he should by us, loose leash, no barking which was great, so when we came back she had a turn walking with him around the street and he didn't pull. we even got a compliment from the woman across the road on how well he was doing!! 

will keep at it, he's doing well!!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Update on this; 

He's working well, We have adopted the ''get what you earn'' aproach, which he loves. If we put a toy or food down, he sits and waits excitedly to be told to go get it, its fulfilling to see how much he loves training. As for his walking, he's still muzzled as he's uneasy around other dogs, but on the slip leash he will walk along side me with it loose, he is only needing correction if he sees a dog and gets a bit edgy. Its fantastic. 

His attitude indoors has increased dramatically since we excluded him from the bed/sofa, although he can still come into the bedroom he doesn't come onto the bed. He seems to be developing a fantastic bond with my wife, almost as if he knows whats happening, he will often come and sit with his snout up to her belly, and walks around after her looking at it. 

Alot of effort is going in, and its looking to be paying off. Needless to say I'm extremely pleased - SO FAR. 

I know we have a long way to go, but we still have 5 months to work, his next big test is my mam staying for christmas, nobody has stayed over at our home before, so it will be a totally new experience. We are teaching him to tolerate and ignore, keep him self to him self.. we will be teaching my mam and her partner the same thing.. keep themselves to themselves, and ignore the dog. don't bet him, cuddle him, approach him.... should be right! 

Exciting times!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm glad all appears to be going so well. Personally, I couldn't have a dog like him with a baby, but that's just me. I love that you're working so hard with him and that he is responding to all you are doing. Thanks for the update!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Another little update + huge milestone for Shelby. 

He's been doing fantasticly, No signs of fear or aggression toward people since we started training. Since my last post we have been working on his reaction to other dogs, he is now, with the occasional correction able to walk down the street, passing a dog without jumping around and barking, He no longer pulls, he heels if asked, and is responding to pretty much everything we've been teaching him. he will sit by his food bowl and wait until instructed to eat, even if I leave the room. 

So, his milestone - We where caught off gaurd by my wifes sister, who turned up uninvited to our house wanting to stay, along with her 3 year old neice, So I muzzled the dog, left him in the kitchen with the door slightly open so he could hear what was going on as we all talked, our neice played and so on, after 20 mins I opened the door so shelby could see what was going on, He came in, and a look around, wagged his tail for a bit and sat down and observed for a little while, after this, we where sitting watching tv he just went to his usual spot, calmly and chilled, plenty of movement going on, the kid eating her packed lunch and so on, and he was fine, totally unfazed by all of it. 

we showed them around our home, he followed us around down stairs but didn't follow us up. when I came back I sat on the floor by him to stroke and praise him for being well behaved when our neice asked if she could sit by us. She sat down by me and the dog just sniffed her and stayed where he was.. it was almost like it mellowed him out ha! 

I'm not expecting miracles and I know the constant of a baby in the house is totally different to a visiter for a few hours, but I was so pleased with his reaction. 

Next lesson he has our trainer is bringing her Shepherd along to see if he can either be ignorant, or even social for so long, think it will be interesting! 

Will keep it up! 5 months to go!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Glad he's doing so well! Thanks for the update!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You have come a long way. Great job. Keep up the good work and keep us posted!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... freaking outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys have come a long way since your first post. 

As for the upcoming dog intro event??? Your dog should do fine. You've been working on his "default behaviour" I see another dog ... and ... "I act like a tool???" You've show him that "No" that is not what we do! So being a "tool" is no longer his "default" behaviour. Most likely your "Trainer" recognizes this, hence the Dog to Dog, suggestion.  

Your dog should do fine. I've had to do that when forced by circumstances ... the first time. I rounded three strays, heading towards the Hwy ... my dogs were inside in "Place" already and I had no leashes?? I had to get them off the street "Now." I expected to maybe possibly save one (Jack Russell, Shiba Inu and a Shih Tzu) imagine my "surprise" when I called one ... and the other two followed???

Behind the dog lay my "Boxer" who had never met an unknow (well yeah actually any dog (close up) in her at that time 5 years) and my Band Dawg ... who was the tool that got me started on the "Ignore" other dogs thing. But you know ... no choice, I told my guys stay and I let the three strays in! Long story short ... worked out fine. Only the Shih Tzu, had a problem ... she'd bark if Gunther the largest dog of the six got to close. But he respected her barking waring and kept his distance ... I kept the Shih Zu, with me and the others went in the backyard to play! Everybody had a great time! We did find there home ...2.5 miles away, gate left unlocked. I was sad to see them leave.

My point with this short story is ... that if you have "zero experiance" with letting your dog free around another dog ... don't be surprised if you find it to be a pretty "Butt Puckering Experience!" But your dog should do fine.  







But a heads up ...


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Guys, 

Few months to go and he's doing great .. he will interact and walk with medium/big dogs, still wary of smaller ones? odd I know .. 

He was very social in the vets today for his routine check up ... he's behaviour is fantastic and to be honest he seems alot happier for it. 

We're going to keep up with the training as the social aspect seems fun for him now...

We've had a few practices with a moses basket and a doll.... now he crys at the babies room and looks for him! ha.. 

Will be back to let you all know how he gets on when the little fella arives! 

Thanks for the support!


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## James1892 (Jan 22, 2016)

Another quick update for anyone who's interested ... 

Shelby had his first training day with other dogs on tuesday.. he was slowely introduced to our trainers home, and then her two shepherds, one at a time. 

He was a bit barky and jumpy at first, as we expected.. but after half an hour of letting them get used to eachother they where great. 

They then went for a walk, and he done what she called ''follow and lead'' tied both leads together and let them go and play. 

He had a great time, and was very social in the end.. next one is on saturday. 

Really happy for him  he's taken his chance and really coming out of his shell. 

for me his story is proof that you have to give chances, and allow the dog the oportunity to do the right thing, Still a long way to go but he's made a **** of alot of progress! 

will add photos later!


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