# Thoughts on this match?



## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Long story short the puppy I have a deposit on isn't happening due to conflict with the stud being out of state. I was offered a pup from a different litter and was wondering what everyone thought of these dogs. Good/bad?

Cash European K9 training base

Calypso Vom Haus Dragon


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

When is this breeding happening? Dam isn't even two yet...


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> When is this breeding happening? Dam isn't even two yet...


The breeding is in January. She has had her hips and elbows x-rayed just waiting on the OFA prelim, but vet says hips look good and elbows are normal.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

what are your goals?

Prelims are not officials, nor are vets opinions - seen too many people send in even officials to OFA and say one thing, and OFA rates differently.


Only OFA officials or SV 'a' stamps should be considered as breeding quality x-ray ratings.


Owner is jumping the gun to get puppies to sell. I have a very nice 2 year old (Nov 1 BD) with hips prelim'ed at OFA and officials to Germany for 'a' stamp - not jumping to breed her on that basis....working very well also....still not ready to breed her yet - too young for me.


Lee


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

GypsyGhost said:


> When is this breeding happening? Dam isn't even two yet...


Dam was born 4/7/15 so in Jan. she will be 1 year 9 months old when bred. 


Is this the kennel? Hemlock Shepherds - Ohio hemlock-shepherds-2 


Is this the same "HemlockShepherds"? Joined in 2013
*Would love to learn about Pedigrees.* 
"Carmen I am actually very interested in learning about pedigrees. I'm extremely new to it. I'm mainly interested in the working line shepherds. Could you recommend reading materials to help me learn how to distinguish between strong lines or less quality? Right now it's extremely confusing. 
-Audrey" http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/482713-pedigrees-bloodlines.html

HemlockShepherd member page: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/197361-hemlockshepherd.html One of their dogs name is Apollo (from member page). GSD Odin is on their facebook page. Both dogs' names and profiles???: hemlock-shepherds-2


Best of luck!
Moms


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Lee- I am first and foremost looking for a good family dog and walking partner. My daughter will be using her for 4H- obedience, rally, showmanship, and agility. I would like to get into obedience and maybe UKC conformation shows, and just for fun maybe tracking. 

Moms- yes that is her.

Like I have said I am new to shepherds I was just curious about the dogs and their pedigrees. I like to learn all I can about the dogs behind the parents and since I especially am not familiar with working line dogs I figured what better place to learn. 

I am more used to shelties were it is not uncommon to breed females under 2 as long as the prelim is good.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I wouldn't commit to anything too soon Jessica. Personally, I'd have a hard time taking their word for a lot of things, breeder and owner of the sire, but for what you're looking for, if you can verify the health checks and you can see the dogs and are able to access their temperaments? You could probably find what you want with them, but its not the route I'd go.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Jessica!

I'm not trying to discourage you, but you have 5 dogs now (info from your other post). Are you SURE you can take on the demands of a GSD? VERY different from Sheltie's and a poodle.

*What drew you to the GSD breed?
*Are you sure that you want a "working line" GSD?
*What is your price range? (usual is $1,600 to $3,000)
*What state are you in and how far are you willing to travel (hours)?
*Are you willing to have a dog shipped?

Here are some good reading materials!


(German Shepherd and Schutzhund Articles, by Wildhaus Kennels ) Click on and read The Different Types of German Shepherd Dogs



Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder

German Shepherd Guide - Home





Moms


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I am no expert but her line breeding seems a little high. I thought it was best to keep to 4-5 generation she is 3 with a Hardiman of 6.84. I had read it is best to be under 5 %. There may be no issues with this but I would visit with breeders who have more knowledge about line breeding and it positives and negatives. I would also like to see them at least wait till her next heat cycle so she is old enough and the OFA can be official. If you are paying the price of a dog with certification you need it to be official.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi Jessica!
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you, but you have 5 dogs now (info from your other post). Are you SURE you can take on the demands of a GSD? VERY different from Sheltie's and a poodle.
> 
> ...


yes I have 5 dogs technically, the poodle goes back to guide dog school in July, but I am a stay at home mom, I really don't have much else to do with my time. I do have a toddler but I have never had any problems raising puppies and babies together before. I am lucky that with this one I have teenagers to help out when needed, whether its take the puppy out to play/potty, or watch your brother for a little bit.
Also while I do have shelties now I have raised several breeds of dogs, like Dobermans and shepherds, also grew up with shepherds. My first dog that was mine only was my Christmas present when I was 11 y/o, he was a german shepherd /chow /wolf mix. I managed to do pretty good with him, though I never could trust him off leash or with small animals.

As for why a GSD? I have always loved them, grew up with them from the time I was a baby until I was 18 and moved out. I "know" the breed, I just don't know about pedigrees, all my parents dogs were byb bred. I also do want something a bit more intimidating than a sheltie, while I am not looking to have a protection trained dog I do want something that is going to make people (criminals) think twice before they try to come to my house. My husbands job requires him to travel at times, though he is usually not gone for more than 1 week at a time I still want that piece of mind. My shelties are not very good watch dogs :laugh2: they will bark like mad when my husband comes home, but when my sons friend just walked into the house at 11pm not one of them barked!

As for why a working line? I just didn't care for the health problems in the showlines or the way their backs looked. I am sure I probably could find a show breeder with a dog I am looking for but it is so much more than looks I want a stable dog that is not going to be a nervous wreck! 

Price range $1500 is the highest my husband is willing to allow and even that much took some convincing.

I live in NW Ohio travel ideally I like to only be an hour or 2 away I do like to be closer to the breeder so multiple trips/visits are doable. No I don't want to ship, I like to get out and meet at least the mom of the pups.

Steve- if I may ask why would you have a hard time taking their word? 

I would like to say thanks for everyones responses you have left me with some things to really consider before I jump into this. :smile2:


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jessica, do yourself a favor and go out to some GSD clubs/IPO clubs (even if you don't want to do the sport!) and meet some working line GSD and their owners. Talk to them about their dogs, their dogs' breeders, everything you can think of. See if the dogs are appropriately social and accepting of non-threatening strangers. See if the dogs are happily engaged with their owners. 

I did not do these things before I got my first WL. I too just wanted an active pet that would be a deterrent to bad people. I trusted his breeder. And he is a nerve bag. I cannot have him loose in the house when we have company. No one gets to meet him. He's reactive to other dogs. He is definitely not the "go anywhere" dog he was sold to me as. Breeders are sales people. Yes, there are some VERY good breeders out there. But there are also a lot of people who just want to make money. I learned the hard way... please learn from my mistakes!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

My advice is to go to a well established breeder.

Two newbies is not a good combination. Blind leading the blind. 

this newbie breeder doesn't know the BASIC pedigrees that are easy to research.

heading out to Czech with sparse trustworthy information readily available , and DDR dogs is high risk . Stab in the dark. Might impress someone who knows less than the breeder - riding on the myths and legends and heresay stories of the esoteric "Czech and DDR" dogs.

the breeder can't know anything about the sire and dam -- you can be told and sold on anything -- you don't know enough to ask the questions and know when an answer is "fishy"

go to someone experienced in making good matches , and by that I mean the pedigree AND very importantly - litter and individual pup to new owner.

looked at the sire - structure looks odd - maybe camera angles - weak long back?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

carmspack said:


> My advice is to go to a well established breeder.
> 
> Two newbies is not a good combination. Blind leading the blind.
> 
> go to someone experienced in making good matches , and by that I mean the pedigree AND very importantly - litter and individual pup to new owner.


^^^ yes, Yes and* YES*! 


[/QUOTE=JesicaR] Price range $1500 [/QUOTE]

Jessica, you may need to re-think this a little. 

You want a "Balanced" dog from a reputable breeder who *knows* the lineage of what they are breeding to get what you are looking for in a *family dog *who has a stable temperament........not getting a GSD to fit your price range. 
MANY threads on here of UN-manageable dogs and even tragedies. 
Look up threads on the Forum page: *Aggression (the good, the bad & the ugly)*

Take GypsyGhost's advice: "go out to some GSD clubs/IPO clubs (even if you don't want to do the sport!) and meet some working line GSD and their owners. Talk to them about their dogs, their dogs' breeders, everything you can think of. See if the dogs are appropriately social and accepting of non-threatening strangers. See if the dogs are happily engaged with their owners"

Moms


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

I tried doing a search on Cash and the only thing I get is some youtube videos and the website of the owner and the training base he came from. So how does the newbie like myself find information on the dogs in the pedigree and what they are like. I see the pedigree and the titles and hip scores which all look good to me, but how do I learn about the dog behind the titles? 

I will try and find some IPO clubs and hopefully be able to go and watch, but I will say I am painfully shy, and a little anxious in large crowds so for me to just go up to someone and start talking is going to be a little difficult. It is something I am trying hard to work on.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's actually really hard to figure out what dogs in a pedigree are actually like to live with, Jessica. That is why you need to trust the breeder to put together a good breeding, and then select the right dog for you. Even "bad breedings" can produce wonderful dogs, as there is often a lot of variation in a litter. Generally, if the dogs in a long line have health checks, have titles, you at least have an idea of what you are getting, an idea. But living with that dog in the house, with small kids, that is just a completely different life than many titled European dogs live. I mean, what we see as dog-dog reactivity for "pet dog" stuff, a trainer in Europe would probably put a stop to very quickly, because they know what they are doing and don't do the dog park, neighborhood walk, visit with strangers, thing. 

I will say, strong nerves, for me is #1. A dog can be reactive, but with strong nerves, and you can deal with it. When a dog become unpredictable, you have a problem. 

I am currently trying to research a pedigree that I am unfamiliar with, and even talking with people who have dogs from similar breedings, you get a mixed bag. Some are "social" some are "sharp". Consistency seems to be good workers for protection sports, and health. It's really tough until you've seen a lot of dogs of the breed and line and know what you are looking at. And most dog buyers, never will- not really fair to expect that. I imagine this is why the OP is posting here. 

Best, if you are looking for mostly a pet, to go meet the breeder and sire/dam and the puppies and decide if that is for you. Don't be swayed by cute puppies- all puppies are cute.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> if I may ask why would you have a hard time taking their word?


When someone tells me something like:



> We specialize in raising dogs fit for work, sport, protection, and companionship. Many of our puppies have great working potential and many are better suited for personal protection and companionship with a loving family.


I'm thinking, how do you know? Companionship is one thing, but should I just take the word of someone who's never done sport or actual protection training outside of teasing the dogs in their backyard? Maybe these folks have done all that and I'm wrong, but it would be kinda odd to have accomplished things with your dogs and not show it.

It looks like the male was titled in Europe and then sold over here. I'd want to know if the current owner was the original buyer over here or if she bought him from someone that was basically getting rid of him. He wouldn't be the first IPO3 import that doesn't know what a retrieve is. So again, I'd want to really look critically at what the owner of the sire actually knows about the dog. 

The problem for me would be the working abilities of the dogs as far as sport goes. I think for you it would be more about trusting what they'd tell you about temperament. I'd have my doubts about what they'd accurately be able to tell you about either.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> When someone tells me something like:
> 
> 
> I'm thinking, how do you know? Companionship is one thing, but should I just take the word of someone who's never done sport or actual protection training outside of teasing the dogs in their backyard? Maybe these folks have done all that and I'm wrong, but it would be kinda odd to have accomplished things with your dogs and not show it.
> ...


Thank you for that answer Steve, I really appreciate it! 

So would it be rude to e-mail the owner of the stud and ask her questions about him? I do see on her website that he is titled in novice/intermediate trick dog, along with CGC and UKC SPOT, I assume he got those after she bought him. Also says he is in training for Rally and conformation.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, she probably did those. But why buy an IPO titled dog to CGC? Anywhere from 4 to 15 thousand dollars to do trick dog? My question would be did someone else import him and find out he wasn't as advertised, but you can have some fun with him? I'd ask her.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

JessicaR said:


> I tried doing a search on Cash and the only thing I get is some youtube videos and the website of the owner and the training base he came from. So how does the newbie like myself find information on the dogs in the pedigree and what they are like. I see the pedigree and the titles and hip scores which all look good to me, but how do I learn about the dog behind the titles?
> 
> I will try and find some IPO clubs and hopefully be able to go and watch, but I will say I am painfully shy, and a little anxious in large crowds so for me to just go up to someone and start talking is going to be a little difficult. It is something I am trying hard to work on.


It can be very hard for a newbie to weed out the good breeders from the fakes. IMO I would not buy a puppy from this breeders, way to many we don't know what we are doing or simply don't care warning signs. They look like BYB's, health testing, but not really working their dogs or very knowledgeable about the breed. You may get lucky and get a good family pet, but there is a very good chance you may not. 

If you make a thread about looking for breeders in your state I am sure there are members who can recommend some reputable breeders for you to contact. Even if a reputable breeder does not have puppies available they may be able to give you contact info for additional breeders.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just to clarify Jessica, all I'm really talking about too is experience.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jessica, I imported Basko's sister into the country and have seen over twenty-five plus dogs out of her. I also am quite familiar with Aron, who the dam is linebred on. Send me a pm and I will give you some insights from my perspective.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Cliff, would you mind PM me about Aron? He is my boys GF and I am curious as to your thoughts on him.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> what are your goals?
> 
> Prelims are not officials, nor are vets opinions - seen too many people send in even officials to OFA and say one thing, and OFA rates differently.
> 
> ...


Have any of your pups ever developed hip problems? Even after the mother and father have cleared?


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

I would like to say that the intent with this litter is for active family companions and those interested in beginning sport venues such as SAR, obedience and agility like Jessica is wanting. I wasn't planning on much interest from IPO etc handlers. This is a great match up for beginning handlers and families. Both dogs are very balanced, not nervy. They are both living in very social environments with the public etc. I see many opinions on here based off of reading a pedigree rather than any real info on the dogs themselves. 

The dam is a wonderful active family companion and our personal pet. She is protective and has very balanced nerves. She is wonderful in every way with strangers we welcome into our home as well as my young son of 4 years and our newest addition. She will be bred at 21 months, just 3 months shy of 24. Her puppies will be arriving around 23 months, just one month short of 2 years. Her OFA prelims were taken at 18 months and came back with results of good hips, normal elbows. They were taken, sent , scored, and evaluated just like the ones at 2 years.

The OFA site clearly states on their prelim page "For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months." This is coming from the OFA itself. The people in charge of certifying the hips etc. I am very happy with a reliability of 95.2%. I would say that xrays at 18 months are reliable. Not to mention the fact that the SV Stamped hips can be done as young as 12 months of age in Germany. 

I understand the opinion-based thoughts on breeding at 2+ years, but I have spoken with many vets about breeding her 3 months prior and none of them saw an issue with it after the OFA's prelim findings were back. She checks out in every way and is a healthy dog mentally and physically. If any of those vet's with medical degrees and 8 years of schooling (plus the years on the job) were to have spoken poorly of breeding her or warned against it, I would not be doing it. She is ultimately our pet and I do not want to do anything to harm her or cause her life to be shortened or of poor quality. 

We are in touch with her breeder and her Sire and Dam are both their in-home pets as well. They travel to beaches where other dogs run free, they go to local shops and restaurants, and have produced pups being trained for different things, but mainly active family companions. Very stable dispositions and nerves. I also am in contact with her full sister's owner whom is very pleased with the sister's disposition. This was not just a "Jack and Jill" breeding. I spoke with many breeders and not a single one guided me away from this match up. None had anything bad to say about either dog. Looking at most pedigrees you will see most dogs with DDR in their lineage are mixed with Czech lines. Putting the two together ins't necessarily a bad thing just because of their lines. It can be just as beneficial as Czech on Czech etc. To call out linebreeding being done and then literally admit you are no expert and you think you read something, somewhere that told you something, is a bit of a stretch as well. I have spent the last 4 years researching nonstop learning about pedigrees and matching lines. I will never stop researching and I will never stop learning (as I hope all breeders/owners do). My info came from breeders and research on the web, as well as vets. I reached out to many people in order to understand pedigrees, training techniques, and the knowledge I would need to begin and continue on this journey. As I have learned (as I am no expert either) I have chosen dogs from good lines. Once they medically check out and show balance in their dispositions I match them up with other dogs carrying many of the same traits I am trying to achieve. I spend countless hours talking with breeders and owners to ensure I am matching the right dogs up not just basing it on the pedigree ink, but the dog's actual personality and strengths. My comments on here from 3 YEARS AGO about learning to read pedigrees is far from the knowledge I have obtained. Again, 4 years of research has made me no expert, but I do not expect to be an expert even 10 years from now. I hope to learn and grow everyday, making solid decisions along the way. I do think that my research has at least allowed me the knowledge to match two dogs up for a litter that should be sound in body and mind. They should excel in the things I am trying to breed them for. The things my buyers want from a Shepherd.

I am curious about everyone commenting on here though. How long have you been breeding? Training? What exactly are your credentials? References to back your opinions? etc. I'm looking to learn not argue. I have an open mind and am not against being swayed if in fact something I am doing is wrong. 

I do understand the worry about DDR dogs in general being nervy. I have been in many, many forums about them, and spoken to countless DDR owners, as I do like the lines. I've noticed most people not happy with them are IPO/Schh handlers looking for a dog fit for the work at hand and not being happy with their specific dog's abilities. I will say my female's parents do not fall under that category and neither does she. They are all very balanced. The medical testing is all there as well. I do have the paperwork form OFA to backup my claims. Before you call me fishy or blind, you might want to consider that I do know the stud and dam being used in this breeding, and have the paperwork to backup the medical testing. 

The stud we are using has more than proven himself in working titles and ability. His handler had him imported for her and is very happy with him and the fact he is a very balanced dog. She was very impressed with how he meshed with her pack and people he is introduced to. He is not a nervy dog. She has even started him in some herding ventures for fun. He is a solid dog with all the proper medical testing done. He has not only proven he can be used for near anything, but she also takes him around town with herself and her service dog. He has shown great socialization skills with people of all ages and many types of animals etc. 

This breeding isn't just taking two pedigrees and throwing them together. I have picked two dogs with qualities needed for the purpose the puppies would fill. I took two level-headed, balanced, healthy dogs and decided to breed them. This is not a BYBing of a Jack and Jill dog. Believe it or not I am doing the same thing with these two separate lines that a breeder would do with two dogs of the same lines. (Czech, WGWL, DDR etc). It is true that any breeding, whether it be the best or worst dogs, can produce great or horrible puppies. The goal I had with this breeding was to use these specific dogs to strengthen and produce an exceptional litter. 

I spent a long time asking about the stud and deciding his personality would strengthen and align nicely with my female. It is hard to trust anyone when money and the selling of something is involved. I have to trust that all my research and the stud's word is trustworthy. The same goes for Jessica and all my buyers. They have to trust that I spent enough time researching and pairing the dogs being bred. That I truly believe this is a beneficial breeding, not just a money scheme. I personally know my dog and trust the stud's breeder thanks to our relationship and interactions. I do agree with anyone who would want to meet the parents. It is always a wise choice. Even just to get a feel for the dog. Jessica it would be completely fine by anyone to talk with the studs owner. If there is ever a breeder saying you can't ever meet the dogs then there is a problem. They will give you the best insight on the other half of your pup's genetics. From what I know Cash is an awesome boy. I have had to trust many breeders with the newer WL dogs and puppies I've had shipped across country. Knowing about the sire and dam are key. The rest is faith you have to put into someones word as far as disposition etc.


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

Carmen I never really got on here after asking you for advice with reading pedigrees. I apologize, I mostly read forums and learn rather than interact with them. I haven't exactly gotten too fluent with how this one works etc.


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

I would like to say that the intent with this litter is for active family companions and those interested in beginning sport venues such as SAR, obedience and agility like Jessica is wanting. This is a great match up for beginning handlers and families. Both dogs are very balanced, not nervy. They are both living in very social environments with the public etc. I see many opinions on here based off of reading a pedigree rather than any real info on the dogs themselves. 

The dam is a wonderful active family companion and our personal pet. She is protective and has very balanced nerves. She is wonderful in every way with strangers we welcome into our home as well as my young son of 4 years and our newest addition. She will be bred at 21 months, just 3 months shy of 24. Her puppies will be arriving around 23 months, just one month short of 2 years. Her OFA prelims were taken at 18 months and came back with results of good hips, normal elbows. They were taken, sent , scored, and evaluated just like the ones at 2 years.

The OFA site clearly states on their prelim page "For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months." This is coming from the OFA itself. The people in charge of certifying the hips etc. I am very happy with a reliability of 95.2%. I would say that xrays at 18 months are reliable. Not to mention the fact that the SV Stamped hips can be done as young as 12 months of age in Germany. 

I understand the opinion-based thoughts on breeding at 2+ years, but I have spoken with many vets about breeding her 3 months prior and none of them saw an issue with it after the OFA's prelim findings were back. She checks out in every way and is a healthy dog mentally and physically. If any of those vet's with medical degrees and 8 years of schooling (plus the years on the job) were to have spoken poorly of breeding her or warned against it, I would not be doing it. She is ultimately our pet and I do not want to do anything to harm her or cause her life to be shortened or of poor quality. 

We are in touch with her breeder and her Sire and Dam are both their in-home pets as well. They travel to beaches where other dogs run free, they go to local shops and restaurants, and have produced pups being trained for different things, but mainly active family companions. Very stable dispositions and nerves. I also am in contact with her full sister's owner whom is very pleased with the sister's disposition. This was not just a "Jack and Jill" breeding. I spoke with many breeders and not a single one guided me away from this match up. None had anything bad to say about either dog. Looking at most pedigrees you will see most dogs with DDR in their lineage are mixed with Czech lines. Putting the two together ins't necessarily a bad thing just because of their lines. It can be just as beneficial as Czech on Czech etc. To call out linebreeding being done and then literally admit you are no expert and you think you read something, somewhere that told you something, is a bit of a stretch as well. I have spent the last 4 years researching nonstop learning about pedigrees and matching lines. I will never stop researching and I will never stop learning (as I hope all breeders/owners do). My info came from breeders and research on the web, as well as vets. I reached out to many people in order to understand pedigrees, training techniques, and the knowledge I would need to begin and continue on this journey. As I have learned (as I am no expert either) I have chosen dogs from good lines. Once they medically check out and show balance in their dispositions I match them up with other dogs carrying many of the same traits I am trying to achieve. I spend countless hours talking with breeders and owners to ensure I am matching the right dogs up not just basing it on the pedigree ink, but the dog's actual personality and strengths. My comments on here from 3 YEARS AGO about learning to read pedigrees is far from the knowledge I have obtained. Again, 4 years of research has made me no expert, but I do not expect to be an expert even 10 years from now. I hope to learn and grow everyday, making solid decisions along the way. I do think that my research has at least allowed me the knowledge to match two dogs up for a litter that should be sound in body and mind. They should excel in the things I am trying to breed them for. The things my buyers want from a Shepherd.

I am curious about everyone commenting on here though. How long have you been breeding? Training? What exactly are your credentials? References to back your opinions? etc. I'm looking to learn not argue. I have an open mind and am not against being swayed if in fact something I am doing is wrong. 

I do understand the worry about DDR dogs in general being nervy. I have been in many, many forums about them, and spoken to countless DDR owners, as I do like the lines. I've noticed most people not happy with them are IPO/Schh handlers looking for a dog fit for the work at hand and not being happy with their specific dog's abilities. I will say my female's parents do not fall under that category and neither does she. They are all very balanced. The medical testing is all there as well. I do have the paperwork form OFA to backup my claims. Before you call me fishy or blind, you might want to consider that I do know the stud and dam being used in this breeding, and have the paperwork to backup the medical testing. 

The stud we are using has more than proven himself in working titles and ability. His handler had him imported for her and is very happy with him and the fact he is a very balanced dog. She was very impressed with how he meshed with her pack and people he is introduced to. He is not a nervy dog. She has even started him in some herding ventures for fun. He is a solid dog with all the proper medical testing done. He has not only proven he can be used for near anything, but she also takes him around town with herself and her service dog. He has shown great socialization skills with people of all ages and many types of animals etc. 

This breeding isn't just taking two pedigrees and throwing them together. I have picked two dogs with qualities needed for the purpose the puppies would fill. I took two level-headed, balanced, healthy dogs and decided to breed them. This is not a BYBing of a Jack and Jill dog. Believe it or not I am doing the same thing with these two separate lines that a breeder would do with two dogs of the same lines. (Czech, WGWL, DDR etc). It is true that any breeding, whether it be the best or worst dogs, can produce great or horrible puppies. The goal I had with this breeding was to use these specific dogs to strengthen and produce an exceptional litter. 

I spent a long time asking about the stud and deciding his personality would strengthen and align nicely with my female. It is hard to trust anyone when money and the selling of something is involved. I have to trust that all my research and the stud's word is trustworthy. The same goes for Jessica and all my buyers. They have to trust that I spent enough time researching and pairing the dogs being bred. That I truly believe this is a beneficial breeding, not just a money scheme. I personally know my dog and trust the stud's breeder thanks to our relationship and interactions. I do agree with anyone who would want to meet the parents. It is always a wise choice. Even just to get a feel for the dog. Jessica it would be completely fine by anyone to talk with the studs owner. If there is ever a breeder saying you can't ever meet the dogs then there is a problem. They will give you the best insight on the other half of your pup's genetics. From what I know Cash is an awesome boy. I have had to trust many breeders with the newer WL dogs and puppies I've had shipped across country. Knowing about the sire and dam are key. The rest is faith you have to put into someones word as far as disposition etc.


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

I wrote a long response with answers to everyone speculations on here but apparently it was so long it needs reviewed before posting... stay tuned haha


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

Everything I'm posting via computer is not showing up and needs approval...so stay tuned I guess for answers to all of your speculations. Apparently my novel will take awhile to post haha


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

My apologies everyone! All my posts came through at the same time :/


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I was not under the impression that SAR was a "beginner" venue of any kind? Also under the impression that dogs who excel at SAR are not necessarily goòd pets and/or lumped in with family companion type dogs although maybe breeders /SAR people can tell me these two types do or do not occur in the same litter, I am not totally sure


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

At 21 months old, your bitch will not be completely mentally mature when you breed her. Just something to think about, HemlockShepherd.


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

Maybe I'm reading this post wrong but it isn't making complete sense. Beginner might be the wrong way to describe SAR and if I've offended you personally my apologies. She was looking for a dog to start in obedience and agility. SAR is a type of dog I strive to breed for. I'm not breeding hard enough dogs for IPO etc. Not that it couldn't happen. I know many people who have SAR trained dogs as their personal pet so I guess that's where I start to misread what you're saying? Either way this isn't exactly close to what the original thread starter was inquiring about.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

First of all I would like to apologize to you Audrey I never meant anything bad when I was asking about the mating between the two I am just trying to learn about different dogs in different pedigrees and the how/why they make a good/bad pairing. I didn't want to be a bother to you by emailing a bunch of silly questions when I know you are busy with your family. I was not worried with the early breeding, as I have said we see that quite a bit in shelties. I have seen the videos of Cash and he looks good to me, but I am not familiar at all with working dogs. Of course you have probably all heard the saying the only thing 2 breeders can agree on is the 3rd one is doing it all wrong :wink2: 

Second of all I should have said from the beginning that I already have a deposit on a puppy it was just a matter of do I wait longer for Nox or transfer to Calypso, which I opted to do. 

I am not doing SAR just obedience, agility, rally, maybe conformation, and tracking just for fun.

I just really want to learn about the different dogs/ lines in a pedigree. :nerd:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would like to know, Hemlock(Audrey) why the rush to breed before the bitch is 2 and Hip/elbows haven't yet been graded? I don't understand the reasoning. You haven't proven her breedworthy. If you want to make a name for your breeding program, do it responsibly. 
Do you do Search and Rescue? If not, how do you know what type of dog is necessary for this work? It is not a 'sport' but a lifesaving service job where commitment is important. The dog must not give up when working. 
Wait a year, work your bitch and get her health tests done. When she is mentally and physically mature after a couple more heat cycles you will really be doing a favor to this breed.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

It sounds like you put thought and research into the pairing. I never said it was a bad pairing. Both dogs are beautiful with lines that look good. OP just asked opinions and paper pedigree is all we have to see. As far as line breeding...my dog has line breeding in her. I am trying to learn more about it. That is why I said I'm no expert. I did not want to make a thought I tossed out to sound like a fact. I threw out a suggestion of something to look into. Putting it out there as something to know about was not saying your dog was bad. It can bring out positive things. I was not trying to be negative just giving OP questions to ask. I never would have thought about that when I was looking for my dog. The age...it is just so ingrained in everyone to wait till two with official OFA the posters will of course jump on that. Your explanation filled in a lot of gaps. I wish you luck. I would not be afraid of a pup from this litter. Sounds like parents are mentally sound. I would rather your females be a little older but you are doing the testing so most likely she will pass.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

HemlockShepherd said:


> Maybe I'm reading this post wrong but it isn't making complete sense. Beginner might be the wrong way to describe SAR and if I've offended you personally my apologies. She was looking for a dog to start in obedience and agility. SAR is a type of dog I strive to breed for. I'm not breeding hard enough dogs for IPO etc. Not that it couldn't happen. I know many people who have SAR trained dogs as their personal pet so I guess that's where I start to misread what you're saying? Either way this isn't exactly close to what the original thread starter was inquiring about.


I am not offended. What I was trying to say was that my understanding is that a dog who would excel at SAR would not be the same dog who would make a great pet. SAR handlers I am sure do have those dogs as their pets when they aren't working, but if that type of dog wasn't doing that type of job it might be way under utilized and no fun to live with.

I have casually researched SAR because it is something on my pipe dream list. To me it sounds like a full time job that you pay to do, after years volunteering with the unit maybe before you even get a dog and then more years of work training with your prospect dog to try and become a SAR team (SAR people please jump in and correct me if I am way off base about this)...

You listed it as a beginner sport venue...not a sport as it is not a competition, it is saving lives, and not beginner in the sense that someone without much training or experience could go try their hand at it.

To me a beginner venue is like Rally....I looked up some videos on youtube, taught the moves to my dogs, and went to a trial. 

Maybe you meant to say tracking? Maybe I misunderstood.


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## HemlockShepherd (Nov 13, 2013)

You're completely fine and it's good that you're asking questions! Don't be scared off by the fact that I happen to see your thread. I had a friend who happened upon it and let me know. I wanted to respond before everyone's speculations went through the roof as all threads seem to do in any forum. There were a lot of valid points and mostly people just trying to help someone learn what to watch out for. They don't know me, my dogs, or all the info needed to make accurate assumptions. Every thread gets nitpicked and everyone has an opinion. Sadly we are all in the category of jumping to the worst conclusion about a breeder due to personal experiences and how most are today. I do like to discuss things with people who's opinions are backed by credentials, but sadly a lot of time nitpicking is what everyone does to each other. There will always be something people will pick apart. I wanted a minute to clear my name and leave an opening for those looking to educate me, as I am always open to learn. 

For the readers I would like to add that as far as those saying I am charging too much:
-I charge $500 less for those wanting a pet.
-I sell mainly pets.
-I chose this price range because I am trying to weed out those looking to take a puppy at a lower rate and byb them. I weed out so many this way.

Let me go ahead and pull my comments surrounding SAR. I do not train for it. I have just spoken most closely to people in it. I want to breed dogs capable of doing it. That is my goal. I am however, able to (as well as age of pup allows) pick out a pup or dog who should MOST LIKELY have the drive and mentality to work. A pup that would be MORE LIKELY to imprint on you properly for training rather than just be your average, active pet. I can see the difference between an active dog and a high drive dog. I have been able to match people with the puppy most suited for what they want in my litters. I do understand they are still developing and at an older age would be better picked for such venues. I understand a great amount of work goes into getting dogs certified to do this and it is absolutely no joke. I commend all of you who are doing it as it really is a life-saving certification and mentality to have in a dog. I am very interested in SAR. 

That said, thank you SiegersMom. I feel I just needed to get everything out there and with all the negative feedback might have been rushing and come off more negative myself than wanted. I do understand why a lot was said by everyone with just looking at the info given. That was no one's fault as Jessica was just trying to learn. 

onxy'sgirl I am curious in discussing (not arguing) about the hip xrays. OFA itself has clearly stated (and can be referenced on their website) that there is a 95.2% reliability with xrays taken at 13-18 months staying the same. I have taken mine at 18 months. They go through the same process as they would 6 months from then. Why exactly is that so outrageous to use something that has proven good? SV stamped hips are many times done at 12 months so again, are we just creating a standard off of what OFA declared? With a less than 5% chance of hips changing by 2 years of age I just don't see the problem with having them done early. I do understand your stand on breeding at 2. I also do not see a dog being bred at 2 being much different mentally than a dog bred 3 months prior. The amount of change (from what I've seen in dogs) has not been so astronomical in the 21st - 24th month of life that they would be any less fit to mother a litter at 23 months of age. Again she would be mothering the litter at 23 months of age. Literally 1 month before 2. I breed mostly pets. I strive for good health, a balanced mentality, and dogs that can actively live a fulfilled life with a family or handler. My dogs are mainly going to families that want to start into the training world or just have an active, German Shepherd.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My question is more, why the rush to breed her? 

I get the point of the hip cert and age. I don't get, especially with the lines you have, breeding a female that young. As someone that has owned dogs of very similar lineage, their personality and drives and general attitude and maturity come on much later in life. 

Have you worked or titled any GSD? Personally, I am never a huge stickler for a female being titled (both of my last males were from untitled females and both are fantastic dogs). But I am curious as to your experience working and evaluating and training the breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Breeding mostly pets should not be a reason to take shortcuts. You should do everything possible to ensure the 'pet' buyers can deal with a well bred GSD(this breed is not for just anyone, by the way). You didn't answer my question about rushing to breed her at this age?
Best wishes with your program....are your goals for a foundation line for future generations? I hope so, this breed needs to go forward in the direction of versatile working dogs that can work and be pets...but not bred for just pets.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Julian G said:


> Have any of your pups ever developed hip problems? Even after the mother and father have cleared?



Not all owners do OFAs .....there have been a couple who have failed OFA, but not seriously or even obviously bad....I had a client with a pup who worked at Tufts Vet School in the Radiology Dept (her pup, Firenze, went OFA Excellent) and 2 board certified radiologists looked at the x-rays of the failures and recommended redoing the x-rays as they felt they could pass (one actually was one of the OFA vets who rated them)....neither owner wanted to go through the expense of redoing them unfortunately. As I know other people whose dogs have failed and been resubmitted I really believe both those dogs could have passed.

and - knock on wood - all of mine have passed elbows both in OFA and through the SV.



Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OP, here is another option in Ohio. Well established program with dogs tested and worked outside their back yard. Works her own dogs. Has raised her children around her dogs and would not keep nor breed anything that is not 100% sound in temperament.

Vom Haus Weinbrand - Home


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JessicaR said:


> Thank you for that answer Steve, I really appreciate it!
> 
> So would it be rude to e-mail the owner of the stud and ask her questions about him? I do see on her website that he is titled in novice/intermediate trick dog, along with CGC and UKC SPOT, I assume he got those after she bought him. Also says he is in training for Rally and conformation.


A couple of other things to think about Jessica, that may just be a personal thing with me but its something I think about with pedigrees and websites. When I look at a pedigree that is full of Sch 3's, 3 generations back, that represents a lot of effort on the breeders and handlers part. Effort to honestly not only evaluate the dogs, but to have them evaluated by a third party. An outside opinion and comparison.

When you see that taper off to a couple of 1's then maybe a BH, to me that looks like a loss of verifiable abilities and temperament on the dogs, other then the opinion of the breeder. No more outside verification. Then when the website lists the accomplishments of those previous dogs and their titles it comes across to me as inferring something about the untitled dogs, that shouldn't be. Just my opinion, but I think if you aren't going to continue something like working/titling the dogs, don't make a sales point about the dogs 3 and 5 generations back.

Your trust would be 100% in the breeder in a case like that, so you'd have to decide. A lot of people go that direction and end up happy. Its up to you, it'll be your dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have two questions, in Europe can a titled female be bred before two years of age, and can a dog be acceptably bred in Europe with Hips/Elbows done before two years of age? 
Just curious.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I have two questions, in Europe can a titled female be bred before two years of age, and can a dog be acceptably bred in Europe with Hips/Elbows done before two years of age?
> Just curious.


I could be wrong, but I believe they have to be at least 2 in order to go for their Koerung. I know that is the case for USCA breed surveys.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I have two questions, in Europe can a titled female be bred before two years of age, and can a dog be acceptably bred in Europe with Hips/Elbows done before two years of age?
> Just curious.


If this is correct:


> 4.2.1 Minimum Age of the Breeding Animal:
> 
> The male must have had his 2nd birthday by the time of the breeding. Bitches must be at least 20 months old by the first breeding use (date of mating).


Its from this webpage and there's probably the age for xrays on there somewhere too:
SV Rules for Breeders and Breeding

Just guessing you already know the answer.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I have two questions, in Europe can a titled female be bred before two years of age, and can a dog be acceptably bred in Europe with Hips/Elbows done before two years of age?
> Just curious.


Good point.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Good point.


Different knowledge base over there though, beyond just the xrays.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Was just curious, as I read some posts. I also think the knowledge base is the same everywhere, in the sense there are knowledgeable breeders here and there, and there are sheep breeders here and there.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Different knowledge base over there though, beyond just the xrays.


So would that knowledge base also be the reason they ( Europe) have 20 months and 1 year( hips/elbows) as an acceptable criteria for breeding?
I'm trying to figure this out&#55358;&#56596;
Look, I'm not saying that waiting until two years for breeding and hip/elbow assessment is wrong, I'm just questioning if the breeding in question could be acceptable based on what information we have.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm curious, too. Do xrays change all that much from a year out? I could see bad hips getting worse, but "A" or "excellent" at a year aren't going to go lower than "good" or "B" I'd guess? Spondy could show up later.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> So would that knowledge base also be the reason they ( Europe) have 20 months and 1 year( hips/elbows) as an acceptable criteria for breeding?
> I'm trying to figure this out��
> Look, I'm not saying that waiting until two years for breeding and hip/elbow assessment is wrong, I'm just questioning if the breeding in question could be acceptable based on what information we have.


I'm not that wound up about how they xray vs how we do. What do you think about the breeding?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is not the age, but the level of experience in the person evaluating the hips/elbows. SV x-rays are evaluated by a specialist in GSD who has been evaluating GSD hips/elbows for years. OFA prelims are often evaluated by a less experienced vet who has looked at hips and elbows from many breeds. He/she is not a specialist. 

My biggest issue is not the age, the hips/elbow prelims, but the goals. Breeding for the pet market, basically softening the temperaments and drives to that of more of a Golden retriever, so the dogs can be handled by anyone, is a huge disservice to what should be a utilitarian working dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

lhczth said:


> My biggest issue is not the age, the hips/elbow prelims, but the goals. Breeding for the pet market, basically softening the temperaments and drives to that of more of a Golden retriever, so the dogs can be handled by anyone, is a huge disservice to what should be a utilitarian working dog.


This is what has caught my eye from the beginning.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lhczth said:


> It is not the age, but the level of experience in the person evaluating the hips/elbows. SV x-rays are evaluated by a specialist in GSD who has been evaluating GSD hips/elbows for years. OFA prelims are often evaluated by a less experienced vet who has looked at hips and elbows from many breeds. He/she is not a specialist.
> 
> My biggest issue is not the age, the hips/elbow prelims, but the goals. Breeding for the pet market, basically softening the temperaments and drives to that of more of a Golden retriever, so the dogs can be handled by anyone, is a huge disservice to what should be a utilitarian working dog.


And if that is going to be your direction, don't infer anything different by hyping and charging more based on working titles that are now going to come to a screeching halt.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Looking at the pedigree I wouldn't say that these dogs will not be good working dogs . 

That may be part of the problem .

I did say that in this case you had a breeder , still learning , so not knowing what a combination might
produce , and that same breeder , still learning , not knowing enough to properly match the pup to owner.

My problem with this is that , personally, my opinion, this new owner , with 4 ? shelties .

I can imagine the chaos - the activity and the noise which the pup will copy -- and the prey drive coming out that the quickly growing , eventually much larger GSD will have , putting the shelties at risk , physically , accidental not necessarily intentional.


I am new to shepherds
not familiar with working line dogs

I will try and find some IPO clubs and hopefully be able to go and watch, but I will say I am painfully shy, and a little anxious in large crowds so for me to just go up to someone and start talking is going to be a little difficult. 
and -- I do have a toddler

lots to take into consideration

The breed suffers from the Rin-Tin-Tin syndrome - unrealistic expectations.
Smart , sure, but smart needs to be managed.

In my opinion I don't think this breeding is the right one for you,

I would actually steer you towards American bred dogs - look to someone who participates in the fun activities that you are interested in.
Get a good mentor.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff ---- quote "I imported Basko's sister into the country and have seen over twenty-five plus dogs out of her. I also am quite familiar with Aron, who the dam is linebred on. Send me a pm and I will give you some insights from my perspective."

Cliff I wish you would share your information instead of going off line onto PMs . Czech dogs, remain a mystery or have reputations by repeated tales . What is real and what is not? Nearly impossible to get to the truth of them.

I have had experience with many of the dogs on this proposed breeding.

I have a Duke Schaferliesel daughter . I had two progeny of Iwan Poppitz - son of Aron . 

Aron arrived in USA and was bred . Well? Or as he was, or would have been, in Europe ? Or was he bred and marketed and desired for his black sable and DDR background?


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Cliff, I too, would love if you would post info here. It's a way for us to learn.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

carmspack said:


> My problem with this is that , personally, my opinion, this new owner , with 4 ? shelties .
> 
> I can imagine the chaos - the activity and the noise which the pup will copy -- and the prey drive coming out that the quickly growing , eventually much larger GSD will have , putting the shelties at risk , physically , accidental not necessarily intentional.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

JessicaR said:


> carmspack said:
> 
> 
> > My problem with this is that , personally, my opinion, this new owner , with 4 ? shelties .
> ...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Our last puppy we raised was a very active 70 pound lab, if they can survive that uninjured we might be ok.


Nothing to do with the size difference, but the difference in the prey drive in the shepherd vs a lab. In general, they like to chase and they like to catch and catch means biting. Its something to be aware of and train for right away. Its not written in stone though either, neither one of mine wants to chase little dogs at all.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Folks, I have taken the same approach towards breedings as the moderators take toward breeders. Basically, you cannot give a fair impartial view if some of the information is not good. To only give good paints a false picture and I don't think that is fair to viewers.
As for the breeding, people have already weighed in on the breeding, I would be interested in what they are basing their opinions on.
Btw, Carmen, I tend to agree with your last post of the breeding.
I have always been willing to share my knowledge with others, but if I posted publicly, sometimes I would be in total disagreement with some folks posts that lead to hurt feelings. So I give it privately.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Nothing to do with the size difference, but the difference in the prey drive in the shepherd vs a lab. In general, they like to chase and they like to catch and catch means biting. Its something to be aware of and train for right away. Its not written in stone though either, neither one of mine wants to chase little dogs at all.


I will definitely be supervising all interactions between the dogs at all times. I know labs don't have as high of a prey drive, but they do like to body slam when they play! It is not fun to be on the receiving end of that :surprise:

My 20 pound girl Belle keeps the pups in check, she is the boss of the pack so I really don't have to worry much about her, all she has to do is give the look and all the other dogs back down. :laugh2: Now Summer on the other hand, even though she is my big girl at 35 pounds, every single puppy likes to pick on her. Their favorite game is lets pull Summer by the tail. I have always had to keep pups on long lines around her so I can correct the behavior and give her time to play without being picked on.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing before I go to training tonight, I don't see this magical understanding of reading hip X-rays,( that only select few in world can do it), disqualifying others, especially veterinarians. Sure, they may be a tad difference, but folks most vets and credible breeders can read hip X-rays well enough to see if they are acceptable for work and or breeding. Taking in consideration that if actual X-ray is fair or better, it is probably less important then siblings or first three generations of parents.
Yet folks act like a 16 or 18 month good solid X-ray will somehow possibly become bad in the six months until eligible for OFA certification....I have been around a long time and this just is not my experience....but I defer to others on this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

every single puppy likes to pick on her. Their favorite game is lets pull Summer by the tail. I have always had to keep pups on long lines around her so I can correct the behavior and give her time to play without being picked on.

would those be guide dog puppies ???

the organization I contributed to and had the privilege to be allowed in to the inner sanctum , and more recently an organization which trains and certifies therapy dogs -- would not allow ANY other dog in the household - no pets 
no canine pets , no engaging with others when out following the guidelines for raising them .
.
Cliff you said "As for the breeding, people have already weighed in on the breeding, I would be interested in what they are basing their opinions on."

My comments were based on my experience . 

I have had two progeny from Iwan Poppitz , and I have a daughter of Duke Schaferliesel .

crossed the two and got "Nicholas" subject of many posts -- an intense , certified working dog with seemingly insatiable drives to work . That does NOT mean he doesn't have an off switch - it means he is willing and able to work well beyond others' mental and physical duration .

I also have had Czech Gero, Abbe Ansy , Car , and many Pohranicni Straze progeny -- .

Plus GSD do best when they are the single dog - not a community member . 

Instead of getting something where you have to suppress the dog (the GSD) why not get a GSD that is closer , more compatible in nature to what you have in the Shelties -- and that would be a WELL bred American line GSD - select from someone who does work their dogs.

I am thinking Andaka who is a member of this forum.

see these samples The looks of American Show Lines | Bloodlines and Pedigrees | GermanShepherdHome.net

it is all about the proper match for you


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

yes that would be the guide dog puppies. 
I guess different organizations allow different things. I have not seen a service dog organization in Ohio that has restrictions like that. The closest I have seen to that is CCI doesn't allow other puppies in the household while you are puppy raising but other than that nothing. A lot of times when the blind retires their guide they keep them as a pet and get a new guide for working, or they have other pets in the house, so you would want the dog to be able to be around other animals. When they have the harness on they are all business but when its off they are just like any other family dog. 

I have raised 12 puppies including the current puppy, 8 of them so far have become working guide dogs. The 2 that aren't 1 was a standard poodle, that actually did graduate but became to protective of the handler and would growl at people that got near him. The other was a boxer that was pulled as a 6 month old puppy due to aggression issues. Rosie, the last puppy we raised is almost half way through her training and so far is doing good, and of course there is Basil who will be 5 months old next week.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I think this OP sounds like a great gsd owner. She has done pretty extensive training of dogs which is more than the average dog owner. She is looking for an active dog to do some AKC competition not a police dog. Working gsd's need a job. They can excel in AKC sport. As long as the dog has an outlet for energy and drive it will be fine. Yes the breeder needs to be able to judge the temperment of the pups for the right match. But on a whole this person has a better understanding of dog training than I did when I got my first gsd and disaster has not struck here. Two gsd's...one working- line. One border collie. Lots of cats, horses, pigs, busy kids and craziness here. It is a bit unfair to say she should not get a working line gsd. This breeding is a first but the breeder has done this before so if the pups produced seem crazy over the top it will be her discretion to direct the owner to a different breeding. My breeder and I discussed several matches to pick my pup from. When the litter came she evaluated them. Had a match not been there we would have waited.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Seigers Mom you echo my thoughts as I read this thread....maybe both of us don't get?.
Btw, Carmen, I know you usually have hands on knowledge of the lines/dogs you comment on, I'm just curious about other assessments of the breeding or its suitability to see what I'm missing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

So if hypothetically a breeder was a kind of protege of Carmspack and Cliffson1, would the two of you endorse and advise to breed these dogs?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

One last thought I had since OP has raised a bunch of service dog prospect puppies it sounds like. By the way, OP thank you for doing that, what a huge amount of work for you to do selflessly so someone else can get the dog they need and can't raise. 

Lots of SD programs have breeding programs too, and have been selecting for the right traits for the work. Most often seems to be labradors. I strongly suspect that there is a huge fundamental difference between purpose bred labrador puppies and wl GSD pup. I think you said there was a boxer in there too and I don't think anyone breeds those for service work so some exceptions to what I am saying, but do be prepared for t he potential of mouthiness, biting, tenacity, prey drive, determination to be unlike what you have experienced with these other puppies.

Think what the breed was designed to do, retrieve with a soft mouth vs being prized for "strong full grips" ...then take those labradors and select for service work specifically and the differences can get even bigger.

Exceptions exist to every general statement so your experience may vary


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:
_Think what the breed was designed to do, retrieve with a soft mouth vs being prized for "strong full grips" ...then take those labradors and select for service work specifically and the differences can get even bigger._

This is what I was going to say also. Labs and Shepherds are different. The shelties were played rough with by the Lab, but Labs are bred for a soft mouth. Shepherds were bred for a much harder mouth. There is a big difference in those two factors. It sounds like the OP has lots of experience, and may do well, as long as she understands and realizes the difference in the breeds she has had and a Shepherd.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I think sometimes GSDs get along great with smaller dogs, and sometimes they don’t. Speaking just from my own experience, I think a lot depends on the temperament of the GSD, but also on the temperaments of the other dogs in the household and their willingness to adapt to life with a GSD.

My first GSD was from working lines and we had a sheltie (oversize, about 35-40lbs) and a Pomeranian. I took training and socialization seriously, but I was far less experienced than the OP. The dogs did not enjoy playing together, but they tolerated each other well and never had any serious altercations. Incidentally, the GSD also had to get along with cats, bunnies, small birds, and parrots. Maybe we were just lucky. That GSD was a bit reactive to dogs outside of our family, however. I worked with a trainer, and he got much better, though I did not do some of the activities I had originally wanted to do with him (like agility). 

When I got my next GSD, Asher (WGSL) some years later, I had a papillon. The papillon couldn’t even tolerate friendly sniffs from Asher. Asher would lay on his belly with his head in his paws to make himself look smaller, but the pap was not receptive. I did quite a bit of crating and rotating for a while, not because I thought Asher would hurt the papillon, but just to let the papillon relax…he would hide if the pup was loose. Then, when I was pregnant, I sent the papillon to live with my mom. The papillon is getting older (10 years) and is pretty set in his ways, fragile, and not very resilient. I knew that a toddler and a big dog would be very stressful for him. I still see him once a week or so (which is nice), and I pay for his vet care. My mom had always wanted a papillon, and he’s probably a better fit for her anyway. 

On a side note: The cats adjusted to Asher just fine and have now adjusted to our 2nd GSD Levi. The crazy fearless cat gets a free pass, and will even sleep on Asher on occasion. Our shy, cautious cat, is not as well-liked. The GSDs will sometimes try to chase her, but I do not worry that they will hurt her. The leave-it command is helpful.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Oh believe me I do know that there is a difference between bites of breeds, I have raised 4 Dobermans and 1 shepherd, and Basil... I call him my land shark! :laugh2:

I am lucky that my shelties are pretty easy going and do not mind the new puppies that come in every year and love to play. The cats are good at teaching puppies to back off, and since they are used to having puppies around they don't run from them, which tends to trigger prey drive, I don't see much of a problem there. Plus they have their cat tree and gated off room to escape if they want to get away for a bit.

Thecowboysgirl- Pilot dogs does not have a breeding program like CCI does. They mainly rely on donation of puppies, though they do have some volunteer breeder caretakers, they don't go to in-depth in their breeding. They just make sure the dogs are free from any genetic defects and have a good temperament. I had actually considered being a caretaker but I just really don't like the fact that you turn the puppies in at 6 weeks old, I think it should be 8 weeks at the earliest. Plus that would be a lot of trips to the facility, which is a 1.5 hour drive one way. I don't like to drive in big cities or interstates, and with my husbands job it is hard to know when he may be out of town.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My 16 month old white GSD grew up alongside a 16 year old Pomeranian. He has only ever been gentle with her in his life and to date if she makes a snarly noise at him (which she will if he tries to lick her face), he will basically throw himself at her feet for forgiveness. It is pretty amusing since he now weighs 88lb. He has never chased her (and believe it or not she can still move pretty fast when she is motivated)...at most he flumpily runs alongside of her but it is clear thar he is running with her, not running her down.

OP I don't know how long you have the puppies or whwt rules you had to instil in them for the program, but assuming they had plenty of rules about how the pups had to be raised that experience will serve you very well because sometimes you have to set your emotions aside and do what you have to do.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OP I don't know how long you have the puppies or whwt rules you had to instil in them for the program, but assuming they had plenty of rules about how the pups had to be raised that experience will serve you very well because sometimes you have to set your emotions aside and do what you have to do.


We keep the puppies until they are 12 months old. 

They actually don't have very many rules, other than the basics like no jumping on people, ignoring other animals and people while walking, I think mainly because they train guide dogs only. We do socialization and basic training that's about it. For the 4H project they have to take the CGC test. The kids are also allowed to use the dogs in showmanship, agility and beginners obedience.

I am pretty good about not letting the dogs get away with stuff they are not supposed to. I have been told before by strangers that I am mean because I make the poor puppies listen.  Whatever my dogs listen to me at least!


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## btfloyd (Oct 11, 2017)

@JessicaR I have a sister of your GSD pup. You got the orange collar (which was my absolute first choice) of the litter, and I got the green collar (my overall second choice). For what it's worth, I'm totally happy with our girl. She is an awesome family pet (you should see her and our 14 month old. best friends!) and is quickly working towards her first IPO title. Best of both worlds if you ask me. 

I've had three different police officers stop me - both in front of my house and while out for a jog - just to ask about her. Two of the three asked if had plans to breed her because they're that impressed. One is a K-9 officer. For real, I get compliments on her ALL the time. 

Audrey did a great job with this breeding!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:wink2::wink2::wink2:


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

btfloyd said:


> @JessicaR I have a sister of your GSD pup. You got the orange collar (which was my absolute first choice) of the litter, and I got the green collar (my overall second choice). For what it's worth, I'm totally happy with our girl. She is an awesome family pet (you should see her and our 14 month old. best friends!) and is quickly working towards her first IPO title. Best of both worlds if you ask me.
> 
> I've had three different police officers stop me - both in front of my house and while out for a jog - just to ask about her. Two of the three asked if had plans to breed her because they're that impressed. One is a K-9 officer. For real, I get compliments on her ALL the time.
> 
> Audrey did a great job with this breeding!



We love our girl! The green collar girl was the one my daughter wanted, but Zelda (orange) really loved my 2 year old so we picked her, or I should say she picked us! :grin2:

We are not doing IPO with her, but she is going to be competing in obedience, rally, and UKC conformation with my daughter.


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## Honeybee1999 (Mar 2, 2006)

btfloyd and JessicaR, I have a 4 month old half sister to both of yours (her sire is Cash), and she is a great pup so far. We are doing basic obedience now and are starting to get into IPO. She has been evaluated and seems to have the drives for it, so time will tell. Also looking into nosework for her as she seems to love sniffing her way through this world.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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