# Unusual color



## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Saw this dog in pdbase. One of the random peds that site throws out at the bottom of the page and she has a coloration that I've never seen before. Checked out the ped and almost all of it was German showline except for one line that goes back to black Russian GSDs. The dog is from a Romanian kennel and it seems that some East European countries have a taste for black colored showlines but this girl is not exactly black. Anyone seen this coloration before?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, many years ago. Unfortunately it has been too long so I don't remember what the consensus was on what the color actually is. I know the sire of the dog I saw was a very dark bi-color, but that is all I remember.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

All the dogs in her ped are the usual well-known West German showline black and red names, plus a single line that goes back to Russia. She may be a rare variation of a bi-color with tan undercoat hair bleeding through a black top coat. I think it looks pretty. It might also change when she matures.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Would it not be Sable? Then just on the end of the pigment spectrum of dark?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Gorgeous!Reminds me of some photos I've seen of black wolves with a little gray on them.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Gorgeous!Reminds me of some photos I've seen of black wolves with a little gray on them.


Yes, that's it. I did see a video of a wolf who had the exact same coloration. It was a video of a man who spends a lot of time inside a zoo enclosure in Britain with a litter of wolves. All the wolves are the usual gray except for a black one that is not exactly black either and had a coat identical to the GSD.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

SlipperyRug said:


> Would it not be Sable? Then just on the end of the pigment spectrum of dark?


Could it be a rare form of black sable? There are no sable dogs close up in this female's ped though. Just showline black and reds, and a pure black.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

My late girl was a black. Her Mum was black and tan, Dad was black. I know the mum carried the blue gene. My girl had a white chest and was white under her tail. When she chased anything with her tail up she used to flash like a rabbit lol. By 18 months the white hair had gone. It wasn't until she was about 6 or 7 that it started coming back. On the chest and in patches like this dog but not as pronounced. Could it just be white hair bleeding through?


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

I do photography so I know the white balance in this photo is tweaked more toward the magenta side. You can see it from the man's hand color and the rust color on the iron fence behind him. People who shoot stacked pictures of showline GSDs tend to do this tweak to make the reds look redder than in real life. So in real life I expect the non-black hairs to be more tan than red. Still looks pretty and exotic though.
(Can also depend on the monitor, my monitor has not been color checked like it is done by professional photographers.)


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Shepdad said:


> I do photography so I know the white balance in this photo is tweaked more toward the magenta side. You can see it from the man's hand color and the rust color on the iron fence behind him. People who shoot stacked pictures of showline GSDs tend to do this tweak to make the reds look redder than in real life. So in real life I expect the non-black hairs to be more tan than red. Still looks pretty and exotic though.
> (Can also depend on the monitor, my monitor has not been color checked like it is done by professional photographers.)


That is so interesting. Having had a much closer look at the photo, there does seen to be a pink hue on the upper half of the photo. However you are right, very pretty dog.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Shepdad said:


> SlipperyRug said:
> 
> 
> > Would it not be Sable? Then just on the end of the pigment spectrum of dark?
> ...


Well, genetically sable is sable is sable. Then just like people some are darker than others.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

SlipperyRug said:


> Well, genetically sable is sable is sable. Then just like people some are darker than others.


Can you get a sable from a black&red sire, and a pure black bitch mating?


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Shepdad said:


> SlipperyRug said:
> 
> 
> > Well, genetically sable is sable is sable. Then just like people some are darker than others.
> ...


Remember back in school when you did the plant or eye color chart thing? That’s the super simplistic version of genetics.. and I certainly don’t claim to have any more than a basic understanding of it. 

I know lines can carry recessive genes without ever coming out until they’re paired with another line with the same recessive genes and bam! You randomly have a white or solid black or whatever.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shepdad said:


> Can you get a sable from a black&red sire, and a pure black bitch mating?


No. Sable is a dominant gene. One parent has to be a sable.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Sable is dominant, and black only passes black. Patterned sable sire is a possibility, otherwise the dog can't be sable.

Very cool coloring though, I like it.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Shepdad said:
> 
> 
> > Can you get a sable from a black&red sire, and a pure black bitch mating?
> ...


Yeah, but I’m just saying it’s a lot more complicated than that. For example ... 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2010/07/21/blond-bombshell/amp/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SlipperyRug said:


> Yeah, but I’m just saying it’s a lot more complicated than that. For example ...


No, it's not more complicated than that. His question was can a sable come from a B/R and a black. The answer is simply No. In order to be a sable, one of the parents MUST be sable. Sable is a dominant gene. 

Sire: a/a (black)
Dam: aw/a (Sable)

"a" is recessive. There must be a copy from each parent and that can carry thru generations without the parents being black.
"aw" is dominant. If the puppy has "aw" it WILL be sable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> and black only passes black.


I've heard more than one person comment recently of a dominant black gene. A friend has a male with the dominant black. I would love to know where that popped up since traditionally black in German Shepherds is recessive.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I've heard more than one person comment recently of a dominant black gene. A friend has a male with the dominant black. I would love to know where that popped up since traditionally black in German Shepherds is recessive.


I don't know about a dominant black gene in GSDs, though I have heard of it. What I meant is that, at least normally, a black gsd will only pass a black gene to its progeny, since it only carries two copies of the black gene... So will only produce blacks or whatever more dominant gene is passed by the other parent, be it sable or black and tan... Or bi-color, if it is actually its own distinct gene, which is far as I know is still not certain.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe. Unless it's a dominant black. Black that is a/a is recessive so can only pass that. If it's dominant then the other gene could be anything. I would like to know how a "dominant" black can suddenly appear after 125 years without anyone noticing before. Did someone bring in another breed? Is it a genetic mutation?

Bi-color is it's own gene.


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## EyeDogtor (Mar 21, 2018)

A dominant black is certainly possible by genetic mutation!

For a better understanding, a clarification of terminology is due at this point:

The *genes *for coat color are _agouti _and the_ extension MC1R_ (this has a dominant black phenotype--unsure if it's in the GSD too). These genes antagonize each other and regulate the type, amount, and distribution pattern of the two pigment types. *Offspring always inherit the gene.* 

The *alleles* of agouti are aw, as, at, a. *Offspring receive one per parent.*

The corresponding *phenotypes *for agouti are sable, b+t, bi-color, black. If true life was as simple as simple mendelian genetics, the allele received will have the phenotype expected. 

But it actually _isn't _that simple. There have been studies in some dog breeds and other mammals that indicate a pigment-type switching pattern within cDNA controlled by alternative usage of different promoters and untranslated first exons. Epigenetic? Definitely. Basically, nature does what it wants.

*jumps off soap box*:blush:


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> I've heard more than one person comment recently of a dominant black gene. A friend has a male with the dominant black. I would love to know where that popped up since traditionally black in German Shepherds is recessive.


I think it was Russian GSDs I heard people mentioning had a dominant black gene? It was guessed that another breed may have been mixed in that was responsible for that. 

Although it is possible that there was a genetic mutation like the first panda shepherd. Then went from there?


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## Nayack (Apr 11, 2018)

Hi All,

Because I own a breed closed to the GDS, I have seen this color many times and asked in our main forum for confirmation. This German Shepherd above in the thumbnail is BLACK SMOKE.
Cheers everyone!

Nayack


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

It is indeed likely that it is dominant black. There was a dog introduced to the breed from Russia, so not truly a color that originated in the breed, but now it can be found in certain lines. It manifests a bit differently but they did test the color genetics of dogs coming down from the line and they indeed came back KB dominant black.

Here's one of the dogs that goes back on that Russian line:
Zherom v. Nord Traum


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## Nayack (Apr 11, 2018)

This GSD dog above is Black Smoke.
They are very frequent as a color in Altdeustcher Schäferhund and I asked around on various forums before I posted on here. 
Hope that helps.
:wink2:


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## Nayack (Apr 11, 2018)

Sorry my comment also showed up below.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Cschmidt88 said:


> It is indeed likely that it is dominant black. There was a dog introduced to the breed from Russia, so not truly a color that originated in the breed, but now it can be found in certain lines. It manifests a bit differently but they did test the color genetics of dogs coming down from the line and they indeed came back KB dominant black.
> 
> Here's one of the dogs that goes back on that Russian line:
> Zherom v. Nord Traum


Sounds like a very plausible explanation and indeed the ped of the female I posted is similar to the male you linked.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

The colour referred to as "Black smoke" is genetically a Seal Variant. 

I know theres a kennel in the Ukraine that breeds Black Seal WGSL. I'm usually not a big fan of WGSL but these dogs are lovely.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Curing said:


> The colour referred to as "Black smoke" is genetically a Seal Variant.
> 
> I know theres a kennel in the Ukraine that breeds Black Seal WGSL. I'm usually not a big fan of WGSL but these dogs are lovely.


Do you mean sable variant? I am not sure what a Seal Variant is.


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## Curing (Dec 4, 2017)

Shepdad said:


> Curing said:
> 
> 
> > The colour referred to as "Black smoke" is genetically a Seal Variant.
> ...


No I mean seal.

Seal colouring is when the dog has a lighter undercoat with darker guard hairs (yes similar to sable but not the same gene) as far as I know the gene that causes it is undiscovered but it comes in a variety of variations from making a black dog look more liver to how it shows up in shepherds which is the smokey black look with lighter undercoat. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...nnaya-mechta-in-flame-of-the-fame-golden-pack

The dog posted here is a black seal, one parent is black the other is red and black. She produces black seal dogs.


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## Mareesey (Aug 25, 2016)

That dog is gorgeous. Really looks like a dark sable.


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

It does look like a sable.  very pretty!


My puppy is a silver sable


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