# Rolls over and latches on to my arm when I grab his collar?



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Wondering if any of you guys have seen this behavior. Whenever I grab my new foster's collar, he rolls over on his back and then grabs my arm in his jaws. It's not a bite but it's a pretty hard grab-- no blood but it definitely leaves marks. He's a year or so old. If I'm trying to get him to go out or into his crate, he just lays there and I have to drag him around with my arm in his mouth. Any idea what's causing this and what I can do about it? He can't go to an adoptive home like this-- somebody will say "dog bite" so fast he'll never know what hit him.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have had fosters do this and it's avoidance behavior on their part. They have learned that by putting up refusing to move and threatening to bite, they can get away with whatever they want. I don't put up with it and the first time a foster tries this on me, is the last time. They quickly find themselves moved to wherever I want them to be and shaken and yelled at for grabbing my arm. They have had a lot of success in intimidating people and finding themselves on the receiving end is a huge wake up call for them. As soon as they let go and get on their feet, they are promptly praised. It doesn't take long before they decide which is the better behavior.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks Elaine as this actually helps me with an idea for correcting this behavior in my puppy. She's quickly learning she cant do what she wants whenever she wants and she's recently started doing the same thing with myself and my husband and its gotta stop because my 2 year old daughter helps us a great with the dogs as well so when its meal time or crate time. I know she's just being a puppy but the fact remains, its a no-no.


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## patti (Apr 7, 2010)

I hate to admit, but Bo has tried this too. He doesn't get away with it, so I can't remember the last time he has tried it.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Thanks Elaine as this actually helps me with an idea for correcting this behavior in my puppy. She's quickly learning she cant do what she wants whenever she wants and she's recently started doing the same thing with myself and my husband and its gotta stop because my 2 year old daughter helps us a great with the dogs as well so when its meal time or crate time. I know she's just being a puppy but the fact remains, its a no-no.


What's your idea for correcting this? Shasta does the same thing. She flops down and goes completely limp, then turns and grabs my arm when I go to pick her up or try to get her on her feet. I've taken to luring her to her feet, but I'm not sure that's a good idea.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I used the tethering method on her for a couple hours so when she didnt want to go on her own where she was supposed to go, she didnt have a choice and got dragged. And i've had to pin her a couple times using her scruff which she was NOT happy about one bit. She screamed and hollared like i was killing her. Told her i wasnt falling for it and she just stopped all her carrying on. But after a couple times of her trying to "bite" me away and being pinned and me literally yelping like another dog would, she started to get the idea. And every time she would do it, she'd get a crate door closed time out for about 5 minutes. and we'd try again. Well the shaking and yelling mentioned above actually makes some sense to because if its a negative experience and loud at that, they're not real likely to do it again but they'll also forgive pretty quick only this time they know whats allowed and whats not. make sense? i'm tired so i may just be rambling.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

another thing my Shasta has learned.... i'm a lot faster than she thinks i am. she'll go for one arm and i'll use my other hand to grab her scruff and pin her down or direct her where i want her to go so either way she isn't doing what SHE wants to do.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> another thing my Shasta has learned.... i'm a lot faster than she thinks i am. she'll go for one arm and i'll use my other hand to grab her scruff and pin her down or direct her where i want her to go so either way she isn't doing what SHE wants to do.


I hate dragging her. I feel so mean and I feel like it's not really doing anything to fix the underlying problem. Plus, I'm old and slow.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would be very cautious about getting all agro (as Elaine describes) on a dog who's exhibiting this behavior ESPECIALLY if the dog is 1.) a rescue with an unknown past or 2) a puppy. For a rescue it could be very dangerous (as in you don't want the grab to turn into a real bite) and for a puppy it really isn't necessary. 

If I had a problem like this I would stop grabbing the dog's collar. If it's a puppy then I'd find a different way to train the behavior I want, step up the NILIF and daily training and then use positive reinforcement to condition the dog to happily accept a collar grab. 

For a rescue I'd figure out a different way to move the dog around (like throwing something irresistible into the crate at every chance possible (not just when you're leaving, putting the dog away, etc.). Then I'd use positive reinforcement (clicker training is a great one here) and very slowly teach them that touching their collar is a good thing.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

KZoppa said:


> another thing my Shasta has learned.... i'm a lot faster than she thinks i am. she'll go for one arm and i'll use my other hand to grab her scruff and pin her down or direct her where i want her to go so either way she isn't doing what SHE wants to do.


This is the absolute worst thing you can do. The alpha roll (that scruff grab and pin) is outdated for very good reasons. It is dangerous (one day the dog may decide to fight back when you bully her/him), unnecessary and teaches the dog that you should be feared. I used this stupid technique more than 20 years ago and it really screwed up my relationship with my dog. 

You want your dog to see you as a fair, kind and consistent leader. This is especially important for a fearful dog like your Shasta. She already has trouble trusting people (hence her defensive behavior) and this just reinforces her thinking that people are crazy and unpredictable.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> If I had a problem like this I would stop grabbing the dog's collar. If it's a puppy then I'd find a different way to train the behavior I want, step up the NILIF and daily training and then use positive reinforcement to condition the dog to happily accept a collar grab.
> 
> For a rescue I'd figure out a different way to move the dog around (like throwing something irresistible into the crate at every chance possible (not just when you're leaving, putting the dog away, etc.). Then I'd use positive reinforcement (clicker training is a great one here) and very slowly teach them that touching their collar is a good thing.


So you think that luring her with treats is the most effective course of action? My Shasta exhibits this behavior mostly when she doesn't want to come in the house.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

see i dont really understand the idea behind clicker training. I know its supposed to be a click when the dog does the desired behavior since they connect the sound to the action more than the command alone (or so i've been told) but i really have no desire to carry around the darn clicker (especially with a 2 year old and a 1 year old who mess with everything i'd go nuts hearing 'click pop. click pop' all the time. I think i'll stick with treats and NILIF. Those seem to be working pretty well. Along with the occassional need to drag.... 

As far as dragging Shasta, i've only had to do it twice. After that she gave up fighting it because she knew she wasnt going to get her way. she'd flop down like she was going to be dead weight but with a small tug she was coming along on her own. i guess you just have to find what works for you all around but i do agree that coaxing her to her feet may not be a good idea. Course i'm also not real big on treats anyway unless i'm training the initial behavior simply because i dont need or want a dog who only does the command because they'll get a tasty treat. positive loving attention should be enough but sometimes, like the biting thing.... you may have to be a little rough. Even dogs in the wild have to be a little rough with pushy pups.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> This is the absolute worst thing you can do. The alpha roll (that scruff grab and pin) is outdated for very good reasons. It is dangerous (one day the dog may decide to fight back when you bully her/him), unnecessary and teaches the dog that you should be feared. I used this stupid technique more than 20 years ago and it really screwed up my relationship with my dog.
> 
> You want your dog to see you as a fair, kind and consistent leader. This is especially important for a fearful dog like your Shasta. She already has trouble trusting people (hence her defensive behavior) and this just reinforces her thinking that people are crazy and unpredictable.


 
Shasta isn't fearful. She's anything but fearful. She's your typical pain in the butt testing boundaries puppy. I understand what you're saying. i really do. I just do believe that if i'm supposed to be viewed at the alpha, then yes, fair, kind and consistant. However! Its part of pack mentallity. Wolves do it on occassion when a pack member is being particularly ornery. I do not feel my relationship with my puppy has been affected by it in a negative manner as she still behaves like your happy crazy energy filled energizer puppy, curious as she should be, full of trouble. We practice NILIF as to get a meal she's required to sit and wait patiently while we fill her bowl, and then shake or lay down before we place the bowl on the floor. She gets walked, is working on leash training and doing very well. She gets play time. Her personality has not been negatively affected and since its only been done a couple of times and she got the message... Yes, i may sound harsh but it works for us. Now my husband on the other hand is an entirely different story. I'm consistant. he isn't.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> So you think that luring her with treats is the most effective course of action? My Shasta exhibits this behavior mostly when she doesn't want to come in the house.


 
to get my Shasta in the house, i'll act really goofy and playful. I then become far more interesting then whatever has her so interested in outside and she comes running! I usually only have the behavior issue with the biting when she gets a little too rough with one of the kids or its bedtime and she doesnt want to stop playing. As she gets older you can tone down the goofy and playful thing into a more dignified 'come'. For now i'll just slap my knees and act dopey while i say 'shasta come!'. Peice of cake.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> to get my Shasta in the house, i'll act really goofy and playful. I then become far more interesting then whatever has her so interested in outside and she comes running! I usually only have the behavior issue with the biting when she gets a little too rough with one of the kids or its bedtime and she doesnt want to stop playing. As she gets older you can tone down the goofy and playful thing into a more dignified 'come'. For now i'll just slap my knees and act dopey while i say 'shasta come!'. Peice of cake.


OH, believe me, I've acted my share of dopey! But when Shasta does her limp puppy routine...it doesn't work. Treats work, though.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just wanted to clarify two things: 

1). Wolves do not alpha roll other wolves. Sometimes another wolf (or dog) will submit by rolling _themself_ over...similar to when a dog is nervous and shows you their belly. 

2). The whole being alpha thing is overrated. There's no question in my house that I'm the leader but I don't get that status by throwing my weight around. My neighbors across the street use a lot of physical corrections with their dog. When she gets out guess who she comes to 100% of the time when called? Me! She almost never comes to her family because she gets screamed at. She sees me as someone who is fun and fair..predictable if you will. 

I think I'm getting confused on the Shastas...I think the other Shasta was abused? :thinking:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Ruth on getting to agro on them. 

For the getting them in and out of a crate problem,,I would start feeding their meals IN the crate,,put the bowl to the back, if they want to eat, they wil go in the crate

If they don't come out, leave the door open, and walk away. 

As for outside, not coming in, if mine gives me the paw, I go in and leave them out there, you can bet they are going to be at that door in like 2 seconds..WHERE'S SHE GOING??????

GSD's don't like being ignored, and they are nosey dogs that want to know what your doing all the time,,if they can't see you, they are normally going to come looking for you.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've been luring him with treats, etc; however he can't be allowed to get the idea it's ok to latch on to someone's arm when they grab his collar when he goes to his new home.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

There is absolutely no reason to get get physical with your dog for not liking his collar grabbed. A lot of dogs don't like their collars grabbed and it is generally very easily remedied by changing their mind about what collar grabbing means. Right now it likely means they will have to go where they don't want to go and/or that you're about to become aggressive towards them for resisting you. Start working on touching the collar, giving a treat in the house. Once your dog is accepting of this, work on holding the collar, giving a treat. Then gradually move up to leading the dog by the collar, giving a treat or collar touches in more and more distracting situations.

This article talks about training dogs to like their collars grabbed at the bottom: Handling & Gentling | Dog Star Daily


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