# Herding for weak nerve dogs?



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Hi, wonder if the herding experts or enthusiasts think it's a good idea to let a weak nerve dog learn how to herd just for fun or as a sport? Do you think it can help build confidence, like nosework or agility? Or it's more like protection sport where it's not good for weak nerve dogs? 

My dog has good prey drive, loves to scent (but I don't want to do tracking). She is nervy but manageable. She's been curious about the cows on our hikes but I don't let her walk to them so she's learned to not go towards them but will look for a bit then get on scenting for stuff on the ground.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Pointer that I learned when just starting herding.... Don't ever tell the stock owner you are interested in herding "just for fun." apparently that conjures up images of idiotic crazed dogs chasing sheep while the owner looks on and smiles .


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

gagsd said:


> Pointer that I learned when just starting herding.... Don't ever tell the stock owner you are interested in herding "just for fun." apparently that conjures up images of idiotic crazed dogs chasing sheep while the owner looks on and smiles .


Thanks for the tip! That is what I planned on doing... plus filming the chase with my camera. :laugh:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx would be a great herder...very instinctive. But sadly she isn't real strong nerved so I can't do it with her. She needs to carry a ball constantly or she bites while she herds. Treibball is an option for those that can't be around livestock. Can't hurt a ball, lol!


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Onyx would be a great herder...very instinctive. But sadly she isn't real strong nerved so I can't do it with her. She needs to carry a ball constantly or she bites while she herds. Treibball is an option for those that can't be around livestock. Can't hurt a ball, lol!


That is interesting! My dog prefers things that move so not sure how this will translate. Is this how they teach herding?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

treibball is a good way to use the natural herding instincts when livestock isn't an option. American Treibball Association google for more information


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Tanner has fairly weak nerves. He is fear aggressive with other dogs, and can be anxious at times. A schutzhund trainer I have a ton of respect for commented once that Tanner is absolutely NOT the dog you want doing protection work. An assessment I very much agree with.

But he has been a rock star on sheep. He doesn't back down and isn't intimidated. Herding with him has been a wonderful experience.
Sheilah


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My aussie is a "marshmellow", I wouldn't say she has weak nerves, butI would say she is a soft dog.

PUt her on sheep and all bets are off, she turns into a hard core working dog that doesn't back down from anything.

So yes, I think some dogs can benefit/gain confidence from herding.

And yep, don't tell the instructor you want to do it for fun


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks guys! That encourages me to try it. A nearby herding instructor said he won't test GSDs anymore because few are qualified these days and the ones that are need a big flock which he isn't equipped with. Not sure why GSDs only do big flocks not little flocks?

I'll try one that's 2 hrs away and see how my dog picks it up.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

3-4 sheep can be a huge enticement to a GSD to run in and be dirty. A flock of 30+ can make the dog show a bit of respect.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark is weak nerved to a point (mostly with social situations - people, kids) but excels in herding.

He was working 3-5 sheep regularly and was doing awesome. Like Mary mentioned, working a smaller 'flock' can be more difficult for a dog than a larger one. 

We never got to finish our lessons this year due to distance and the weather (too hot so a lot of cancellations).

I hope to continue this year and see how far he can go. Not sure if titling is in his future (it may be awhile just because of the lack of trainers and distance) but he really enjoys it.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I think it depends on how the weak nerves manifest. I've never done herding with a GSD, but some of my herders have been absolutely neurotic in day-to-day life but once you put them on livestock, they were absolute pros. Of course, they're bred specifically for herding (as opposed to several uses like GSDs), so that may have an effect. I've also seen dogs who had weak temperaments never get it, as they get over-excited and want to bite or even just run around out of control.

If you want to give it a try, I'd say do it. You may have trouble finding a herding trainer, as many I know are biased against GSDs. The perception I've heard (which I don't really have enough experience doing herding work with them to have an opinion on myself) is that while they used to be a good herding breed, they're now mostly bred for other uses and often are too aggressive and a danger to stock.

I think that might be a bigger hurdle than wanting to do it for fun, even if you're open about that. Herding is gaining in popularity and I even know of several trainers who specifically cater to the pet "just for fun" crowd. It will depend a lot on your area, though, if that's available. I've only ever really seen it in areas where it is inexpensive and easy to keep livestock near urban areas, and herding is generally popular, which I don't think describes too much of the country.  In areas where there are more hurdles to getting involved with herding, you'll probably find a lot more trainers who don't want to work with someone who just wants to play around with it.

I'd say it wouldn't hurt to give herding trainers in your area a call. Like any work, some dogs are good at it and some are terrible and a lot are average, and it can be hard to judge which is which until you actually get them out there doing it.

And I'm also going to recommend Treibball if you're not in love with the idea of herding and are just looking for something for your dog to do. I've done it a couple of times and it is really fun!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

weak nerves come in different varieties......a dog fearful with gunshots/noise or people but with drives can show a whole different personality when not confronted with lots of people or a helper...

Kyra (Frolich Haus) and her daughter Csabre both were solid nerved and titled, they also loved the few opportunities they had to be worked on sheep....right now, Csabres daughter Kira is herding HGH style, but has been worked a bit in IPO as well...hopefully she will dual title....and maybe another one will end up doing HGH I hope!

Having nerve issues does not stop many people from training dogs if they have drive enough to overcome the nerves - and some may not have any triggers in herding that they have in other social interactions

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lee - that makes sense.

Stark was weak nerved when it came to social settings (ie. people, especially kids) but has strong environmental nerves. He has good prey drive but is easily able to cap it and he does think before he acts.

Good post.

And I love following all your pups/dogs.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I've seen rather timid dogs gain a lot of confidence from herding. Go a few times and see how it goes


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Lee - thanks for explaining how some weak nerve dogs may still herd. That makes sense. 

RowdyDogs - the nearby herding instructor I called share the sentiment you described about GSD no longer being a good herder in general. 

I'll definitely give it a go now! Thanks for all your posts!


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Have fun with it! Personally, herding is one of my favorite things to do with my dogs. I hope you have a blast.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

My experience is in large flock tending, so it may not be relevant....

Of the GSD's brought out to our club, I think more failed their instinct tests because they lacked interest in the sheep, and not because they wanted to hurt the sheep. A GSD is not meant to herd a small flock - a small flock is very reactive, kicking a dog's prey drive into high gear. A large flock doesn't offer nearly as much prey attraction so dogs aren't overstimulated.

As for the weak nerved issue - so much depends on the specifics of the dog's temperament and of the environment/methods used to train it.
If the dog is absolutely petrified of EVERYTHING - it will probably be afraid of the sheep too. But if the nerve issues are not as general or not too severe - it could be a good confidence boost.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I talked to a herder again and he convinced me to not waste my time and money on trying herding with a GSD because he says he doesn't know of 1 GSD in the country that herds for real like a border collie or other breeds will - instinctually. He said they are just made to look like they are herding but it's not real. Either the sheep is taught to do it or follow the handler or the handler is telling the dog what to do all the time, which is not true herding because a real herding dog can read the sheep better than a person and the dog should be able to respond instinctually. Thoughts?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Wow - this guy is an idiot. Sorry, but after spending years training my GSD's to tend sheep, it's insulting for someone to say that my dogs are not really herding. 

GSDs herd in a very different style from BC's, but it is just as instinctual. My dog Kessy has been tested in every situation and has proven herself as a tending dog many times over. She often knows what the flock is going to do before I even see it myself, and I can trust her 100% when she makes a decision. 

Here is one video of her - she can work on her own for hours...reading the flock's movements and keeping them contained.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Bear L said:


> I talked to a herder again and he convinced me to not waste my time and money on trying herding with a GSD because he says he doesn't know of 1 GSD in the country that herds for real like a border collie or other breeds will - instinctually. He said they are just made to look like they are herding but it's not real. Either the sheep is taught to do it or follow the handler or the handler is telling the dog what to do all the time, which is not true herding because a real herding dog can read the sheep better than a person and the dog should be able to respond instinctually. Thoughts?


My thoughts are that I have seen many dogs that run along-side of trained sheep that follow the human shepherd. Lots of people just looking to get titles and really not herding.
HOWEVER.... to say that German Shepherds as a breed cannot herd and/or do not have the natural instinct is just not true. Unfortunately the person with whom you spoke has had limited exposure to the breed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I know you posted this in the herding section- and you've gotten some great advice- but just wanted to mention that if herding falls through for you, agility is another way to really build confidence in a dog. I've seen it first hand... If you equate "confidence (lack of)" with "weak nerves" then I've definitely seen such dogs gain lots of confidence with life experiences due to training in agility.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

wildo said:


> I know you posted this in the herding section- and you've gotten some great advice- but just wanted to mention that if herding falls through for you, agility is another way to really build confidence in a dog. I've seen it first hand... If you equate "confidence (lack of)" with "weak nerves" then I've definitely seen such dogs gain lots of confidence with life experiences due to training in agility.


Thanks Wildo. I've started agility with her and think she loves it too! She loves all the running and treats and tugs and my undivided attention.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Bear L said:


> I talked to a herder again and he convinced me to not waste my time and money on trying herding with a GSD because he says he doesn't know of 1 GSD in the country that herds for real like a border collie or other breeds will - instinctually. He said they are just made to look like they are herding but it's not real. Either the sheep is taught to do it or follow the handler or the handler is telling the dog what to do all the time, which is not true herding because a real herding dog can read the sheep better than a person and the dog should be able to respond instinctually. Thoughts?


I'd say his exposure is very limited.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm also skeptical about that guy's claims. I've seen videos of GSDs herding that sure didn't seem to just be following their owners.

I also wonder how much it matters even if he is right. I mean, you're just looking to do it for fun, right? If you and your dog wind up enjoying it, does it really matter that much if it comes naturally to him or if he's just following your directions?


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> I'm also skeptical about that guy's claims. I've seen videos of GSDs herding that sure didn't seem to just be following their owners.
> 
> I also wonder how much it matters even if he is right. I mean, you're just looking to do it for fun, right? If you and your dog wind up enjoying it, does it really matter that much if it comes naturally to him or if he's just following your directions?


You're right, it doesn't matter. It is purely for fun and to see if it will help her with confidence.


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