# Question about Breeder Terms contracts



## BeckyKohl (Jul 10, 2012)

Good Afternoon,
I am new to the forum and have a question about Breeder terms contracts.
I have found a breeder and am considering getting a puppy on "breeders terms". I have not seen the entire contract yet but the basic contract is, once I have been approved as a home for a breeder term puppy, that I would be responsible for the general care of the puppy, except for any testing or hip/elbow xrays, and I would be responsible for the transportation for the above testing. I would also have to transport the bitch to the breeder for breeding and then back to the breeder for whelping until the pups are weaned, that is for two breedings, after which time the bitch would be mine and I would be responsible to have her spayed and then she is mine outright. 
My question is basically, is this a "normal" contract for breeders terms? 
Also, are there any questions that I should be asking when I do meet with the breeder? I have started a list but wanted to be prepared when I meet with her. Any advice, help or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time
Becky


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Sounds like a co-own contract, to me. Basically, the dog is half yours/half the breeder's, and the breeder chooses the stud to breed the bitch to, among other things. 
Some breeders do it to keep, what they feel are, awesome females in their breeding program, but a co-own makes it to where they don't have to focus THEIR money, time, and energy into raising, feeding, vetting, and training the dog.

Personally, I wouldn't co-own a dog. If I have a dog, that dog is MINE to decide what I want to do with him/her.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Honestly, I wouldn't do it, but it's definitely something to consider if you are interested in becoming a breeder. It would be some experience with less chance of error and less responsibility.

It does sound like a lot of time and effort, though, if you aren't trying to become a breeder.


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## BeckyKohl (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you for your response. I am still on the fence about this and not sure if I will go thru with the breeders terms/co-own contract. 
Take care
Becky


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Does the contract address if you'll be compensated if the dam dies while in whelp?
Personally, I would never sell a pup to a novice owner on a co-ownership basis if I wanted to use the dog for breeding. When I did that in the past it was with a fellow breeder who was experienced in the breed. I don't know if you are an experienced owner/handler/trainer or not, so I'm not trying to be disparaging, just trying to figure out the goal overall. Do you want a dog for breeding? Are you entering into this and the breeder will be your mentor, or does the breeder just want a way to have more puppies to sell a few years out? 
If it is a mentoring situation, then good for you. If you respect the breeder and their breeding program and are in this to learn about it and better the breed for the future, then this is a good way to start. 
If not, then I'm not sure why you would get tangled up like this.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

bocron said:


> D Are you entering into this and the breeder will be your mentor, or does the breeder just want a way to have more puppies to sell a few years out?
> If it is a mentoring situation, then good for you. If you respect the breeder and their breeding program and are in this to learn about it and better the breed for the future, then this is a good way to start.
> If not, then I'm not sure why you would get tangled up like this.


Exactly what I was trying to say...but better.


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## Elektra2167 (Jun 18, 2012)

If the breeder thinks she will be nice enough to breed, then why would she have you spay her before she is your outright? I would definitely want to see the full contract in writing before I would be willing to say yes. Make sure all the details of who is going to cover what, are in there. So the original breeder would be keeping both litters from 'your' dog? Or would you be splitting them? Co-owns get complicated, and unless you are really comfortable with the person you are contracting with I would be hesitant to do it. I think there are very valid reasons for a co-own, but it needs to be fair for both parties.


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## BeckyKohl (Jul 10, 2012)

Actually, I had contacted this particular breeder to purchase a puppy.
I am only considering it because she won't have another litter for a while and she offered this one up on breeders terms. I actually worked as a veterinary assistant for 8yrs and have whelped 4 litters of puppies myself, 2 of which were german shepherds. The pups that I whelped were rescue dogs and one litter of 3, I had to bottle feed for 5 wks since the mother passed away. 
So I do have experience but I just not with a breeder.
Thank you all for your advice and opinions.
Becky


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## BeckyKohl (Jul 10, 2012)

There is actually only a fee of $100 for vaccines and registration. If I were to buy a puppy outright then I would pay her full purchase fee.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that part.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BeckyKohl said:


> There is actually only a fee of $100 for vaccines and registration. If I were to buy a puppy outright then I would pay her full purchase fee.


If something goes wrong with the whelping are you going to be financially responsible for the cost of the c-section and further costs associated with that?


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## BeckyKohl (Jul 10, 2012)

That is one of the questions I have for when I meet with her. I have not seen the complete contract. I'm sure that would be covered in the contract but she said that all the expenses that have to do with the breeding would be covered by her. I would only be responisble for the care of the puppy, vaccines, food, training, and transportation for all genetic testing. 
This is why I wanted to ask on this forum for any advice as well as any questions I should be asking. 
Thank you
Becky


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I wonder if 'expenses that have to do with the breeding' is the stud fee.... I would definitely ask for details on that part.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I wouldn't do this myself, but it's an easier way for the breeder to maintain their lines without being overrun by bitches at their property. It's not something most hobby breeders do, it's something full-time professional breeders do. I have not been in a situation like this before, but it is not a co-ownership. It's basically a foster until the bitch has produced and then it becomes a full ownership.

Essentially, you 'own' the bitch in the sense that normal vet visits, food, medications, daily costs etc. fall to you, in addition to transport costs to the vet. Breeder pays for anything related to breeding, including the cost of any health tests the bitch will need (hip, elbow, maybe brucellosis if the breeder is careful), the management of the stud (could be in-house with no fee), and all costs associated with the whelp and raising of the puppies. After she's produced she's yours outright, but because the breeder doesn't want you breeding her stock behind their back they mandate a spay.

That tells me that the breeder isn't terribly involved with each and every client, but that's fine for a lot of people. This isn't a red flag on the breeder, it's just someone of a more commercial nature that is managing their lines without having hundreds of acres of land and endless rows of kennels to keep all their stock. Smart from a financial and technical standpoint, but too commercial for me.

You'll get to own a breeding- (and thus show-) quality bitch for a fraction of the price and any complications of whelp will be on the breeder's dime. The only things you have to worry about are raising a puppy correctly, managing her growing hips, and crossing fingers for an uncomplicated delivery.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

You know what I'm going to go against the grain here. If this was presented to me and everything in the contract seemed reasonable (the costs I cover are what I would cover anyways for the dog, and the breeder maintaining breeding rights covered breeds expenses) then why not? 

It's a huge learning experience for you. Under the right breeder you will learn so much. If its a breeding program you believe in, support, and want to be a part of, then go for it.

Make sure you spell out all the details about puppy rearing, how the dog will be bred (travel, AI, kept at breeders during whelp), expenses related to breeding are her costs, make sure you understand that you have no say in the dogs breeding mate if the contract states that. Think about everything and spell it out in written word (contract). You don't have to agree to the first terms she presents you with. Rebuttle it with valid points and reasoning, with why you prefer this over that. The worst they can do is say no. 

I will say this, if the only reason you or anyone else is considering doing this, is to lower the cost of your dogs outright purchase price. Don't do it. Pay the extra to avoid the hassle. If you genuinely want to learn through this experience, learn about the breed, experience, etc. and be apart of what you consider a good breeding program, then go for it.

Do a LOT of homework to make sure this is infact a breeding program you support. 

Come up with a plan of action if you disagree with this person in the future. How will you resolve this. Think ahead.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I actually agree with 4TheDawgies, sorry I wasn't clear. It's an excellent experience for a 'mentee' to be on the receiving end of this deal. I just wouldn't do it as a breeder because I love my kids too much, lol!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Who pays for all the events/transportation/equipment/etc to get the bitch titled before she is bred?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Barb E said:


> Who pays for all the events/transportation/equipment/etc to get the bitch titled before she is bred?


I would imagine the co-owner and not the breeder. 

I think it's a good idea, unless you're not interested in breeding or don't want to start a breeding program of your own. This would be an awesome learning opportunity if you do ever want to be a breeder.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BeckyKohl said:


> Good Afternoon,
> I am new to the forum and have a question about Breeder terms contracts.
> I have found a breeder and am considering getting a puppy on "breeders terms". I have not seen the entire contract yet but the basic contract is, once I have been approved as a home for a breeder term puppy, that I would be responsible for the general care of the puppy, except for any testing or hip/elbow xrays, and I would be responsible for the transportation for the above testing. I would also have to transport the bitch to the breeder for breeding and then back to the breeder for whelping until the pups are weaned, that is for two breedings, after which time the bitch would be mine and I would be responsible to have her spayed and then she is mine outright.
> My question is basically, is this a "normal" contract for breeders terms?
> ...


Why would you want to do this type of deal? is the price a factor - should be a LOT lower price for this type of deal. And it should only be for a dog that you couldn't get without this type of contract.

Do you want to get into conformation or other type of showing and figure this is a great way to do so

otherwise i would look for a good reputaBLE BREEDER THAT YOU CAN GET A PUPPY OUTRIGHT SO YOU AND ONLY YOU OWN IT.

Imagine giving up your own dog when she gets pregnant (TWICE!) for XX weeks while she is going thru a preg and esp whelping and then having someone else take care of her.

Unless I had a great deal on a great dog, I would not do this - sounds more like a grat advantage to the breeder than to you. Maybe some breeders can chime in why it would be really good deal for the buyer.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know of a breeder who does this. The initial price of the puppy is "free" with the breeder breeding the dog (however many times) and sells the puppies. So the breeder makes out pretty well financially.

One thing I would check that's not been mentioned is, if the dog's hips/elbows don't pass, what happens then? do you get to keep her for "free"? is their a price to be paid for her to the breeder?

While I guess this scenerio can work for some, it's not for me, when I get a puppy I would rather upfront pay for it, than have to worry whether I may not like who the breeder chooses to breed to, worry about what can happen at the breeders during whelp..just me..


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

It is a way for some breeders to "farm" out their bitches to someone else to take care of , then they get them for whelping and get all the money from the pups. Usually the breeder will do this to all bitches, so they have a constant supply of puppies while not having the expense or needing the room to house all the girls before and after pregnancy/birth/weaning.
Truthfully this is not a good idea. The breeder basically has all the say so. Maybe during this time you have to move a thousand miles away. Now, the expense gets more when you have to transport the girl to be bred, then back to whelp babies. Maybe you have an important family vacation planned: guess what, its time to breed Fluffy and you have to deliver her. Your whole life will be centered around what the breeder wants when she wants it.
What if you just want a loving family pet? You don't want to mess with a girl being in heat, worrying about her getting bred to the neighborhood mutt? You can't spay her during this whole time, which could end up being 4 years or more. What if the breeder breeds her at 2 after testing, then decides not to breed her for another two years? Lots of "what if's" in this type of contract.
Plus, the big question: you raise her, you love her,your whole family has grown up with this girl. You take her to breeders to be bred. She gets pregnant , you take her to whelp litter. She dies... Breeder has a litter of pups to sell. You have lost your family dog.......... It happens.
Really really think this scenerio over. You have more to lose than the breeder does.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I know of a breeder who does this. The initial price of the puppy is "free" with the breeder breeding the dog (however many times) and sells the puppies. So the breeder makes out pretty well financially


I know that breeder too. Seems to work. And more dogs in the breeding program that way too.



> One thing I would check that's not been mentioned is, if the dog's hips/elbows don't pass, what happens then? do you get to keep her for "free"? is their a price to be paid for her to the breeder?


This would be a concern. Its hard to cover all the what if's, but planned testing should be spelled out.

I would not have a problem with this type of contract. If you like the breeding program, are ready for a puppy (she mentioned the breeder not having a litter for a bit). The OP never mentioned breeding herself, not sure where that assumption came from (or did I miss that?)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There really is no standard way for co-own contracts to be designed. They are completely customizable to the individual situation.

We co-own a couple females with a dear friend whom we've known for years and who trains with us. She loves training and titling, and she loves breeding and having pups. But she does not want the responsibility of being a breeder in terms of screening buyers, placing the pups in the right homes, and then being essentially on call 24/7 for the next 12-14 years should the owners have any problems.

The way ours are designed, she gets a breeding prospect pup for free. She is responsible for all care, and training and titling costs. But then she'd do all of that anyway whether it was co-owned or not because that is her passion. When the female is bred, she gets input on the stud but the final decision is mine as I'm the official breeder. We split all costs related to breeding 50/50. That includes pre-breeding health screening, stud fee, puppy whelping and raising costs. And then we also split the puppy sale income 50/50. Neither of us make money on the deal, but usually things come close to breaking even. If it's a small, or unusually expensive litter then we are equally in the red. We also split raising the pups. She whelps at her house (we're there to help) and keeps them through weaning, as it is much more comfortable for the bitch to do that in the comfort of her own home and this person is more than capable of doing that all very well. Then after they are weaned they come here and we grow them out the rest of the way and evaluate them and place them in homes. They are sold under our contract and warranty, so she isn't beholden to the customers for those things, though of course she will help and provide advice and loves getting updates as much as I do.

This is just an example of how these arrangements can be designed to fit the individuals involved in them. It's certainly not intended to infer that this is the only, or best, way to do these sort of contracts. The way we do it works well for both parties in our situation, and we're both very happy with the way things work out. But it certainly wouldn't work for everyone. I also think that the level of compensation that she gets is more than most co-own contracts offer. But then the effort she puts in is also more than most.

If for any reason the female didn't work out for breeding (didn't pass OFA or whatever) then ultimately it would be her decision. It is really HER dog. If she wanted to keep the dog, she could do so. If she wanted to sell the dog, we would facilitate that and she'd get the money for the dog. Hasn't happened yet, but if it did that's how we'd handle it. Likewise when the dog retires from breeding, it's hers free and clear.

Personally, as a breeder I would be hesitant to enter this sort of arrangement with someone I didn't already know and have a good relationship with. But then I expect my breeding stock, co-owns included, to be trained and titled and that requires a certain type of co-owner, not just a pet owner. That might not be the case here.

As a puppy purchaser, I would not be interested in being on the other side of such an arrangement unless like our co-owner I actually wanted to get into breeding. In this case, co-owns with established breeders can be a great way for a new breeder to get started. They allow for mentorship from an experienced person who is equally invested in the dog's success, as well as someone to share the financial burden and responsiblity.

If I just wanted a dog, and had no interest in breeding, I would not be interested in this sort of arrangement at all. There are just too many things that can go wrong, and too many things that would be a hassle for someone not interested in breding. I would rather pay whatever it took, and wait however long necessary, to find the dog I wanted and then have it be my dog with no strings attached.


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## Elektra2167 (Jun 18, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> There really is no standard way for co-own contracts to be designed. They are completely customizable to the individual situation.
> 
> We co-own a couple females with a dear friend whom we've known for years and who trains with us. She loves training and titling, and she loves breeding and having pups. But she does not want the responsibility of being a breeder in terms of screening buyers, placing the pups in the right homes, and then being essentially on call 24/7 for the next 12-14 years should the owners have any problems.
> 
> The way ours are designed, she gets a breeding prospect pup for free. She is responsible for all care, and training and titling costs. But then she'd do all of that anyway whether it was co-owned or not because that is her passion. When the female is bred, she gets input on the stud but the final decision is mine as I'm the official breeder. We split all costs related to breeding 50/50. That includes pre-breeding health screening, stud fee, puppy whelping and raising costs. And then we also split the puppy sale income 50/50. Neither of us make money on the deal, but usually things come close to breaking even. If it's a small, or unusually expensive litter then we are equally in the red. We also split raising the pups. She whelps at her house (we're there to help) and keeps them through weaning, as it is much more comfortable for the bitch to do that in the comfort of her own home and this person is more than capable of doing that all very well. Then after they are weaned they come here and we grow them out the rest of the way and evaluate them and place them in homes. They are sold under our contract and warranty, so she isn't beholden to the customers for those things, though of course she will help and provide advice and loves getting updates as much as I do.


This is essentially what we did with a co-own too. It worked very well for both of us with a 50/50 split, and we handled the contracts and warranty. It ended up we had two litters, and then the bitch started having some hard heats and her owner wasn't comfortable breeding her again and I was fine with that. Initially if she hadn't passed her health checks I would have just signed the papers over. It's always a risk you take, I think, in raising a dog for a breeding prospect, that something along the way can go wrong, or not turn out like you had hoped.

I would have a difficult time giving my dog up for whelping though, not sure I could do that.


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