# Very bad morning - thoughts please (LONG)



## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Hank completely acted up today, out of character, on our morning walk and at the vet. I would like to tell the story because I am disturbed by one aspect of what happened, and would like advice from all you wonderful, more experienced owners. Again, let me stress that everything that happened today was completely abnormal behavior for him.

I walk Hank every day and have only missed 3 days last winter due to extreme wind chills, etc. So it is a very normal part of our routine, and Hank meets many people along the route. He has many friends such as the mail carrier, the school crossing guard, other dog owners, all of whom he greets happily.

Today we were walking along our route and a man was approaching from the opposite direction, so as I often do, I walked over into the grass, giving the man a wide berth. Often when I do this, I will also put Hank in a sit, especially since we often pass elderly couples when we are out walking. Today I just kept walking and as the man got close, Hank lunged toward him, and I believe he barked or growled. It all happened so fast that I am not clear if he barked. In any case, he pulled so hard (with a pinch collar on) that I was bent forward and pulled a few steps toward the man. I loudly and firmly told him "NO" and there was no contact with the man who kept on walking but I really thought I had lost control of Hank and that he would jump on the man. 

The situation was horrifying to me, because he has only lunged once before, and I maintained control of him at that time and he never got close to the person, who was also male. (I am female, but Hank has many men in his life who he loves dearly.) 

Right after that incident, within 30 seconds, there was a man on the other side of the road who had some sort of physical disability that made him walk bent forward, kind of like Quasi-Modo, and he was almost running. Hank alerted to him and was very watchful, almost dancing next to me as we walked, never taking his eyes off the man. Then the man crossed the road and walked in the direction we were, so I put Hank in a sit and waited for the man to get a good distance ahead of us.

After all that, we had to stop at the vet to drop off a stool sample after finishing 14 days of antibiotics for a bacterial infection. He barked as we went in the vet, as there was several dogs in the waiting room. So not completely unusual, but we also went to a pet blessing there earlier this month with dozens of dogs present and he only barked for a minute in the parking lot and I didn't take him in until he settled down. Inside the vet, he behaved enough to get weighed and get a few treats, and he sat nice for me as a small dog got carried past him into an examining room. Then as we tried to walk out, he pulled me up to an older couple sitting in the waiting room (again with a pinch collar on) and thank goodness they were not upset by it, because who wants a German shepherd rushing them? Then he sat there and wanted love and affection from them, put his ears back, and let them pet him and get kisses. 

So maybe he was just having a day, but all of the events put together and happening in a roughly one-hour period really got to me. He is almost 14 months old and always very well-behaved except for the occasional puppy moment which is never something like today where I could have been facing a lawsuit or worse if he jumped on that man.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Take a deep breath and relax.



> He has many friends such as the mail carrier, the school crossing guard, other dog owners, all of whom he greets happily.


Seems Hank is a good dog, well socialized.



> I walked over into the grass, giving the man a wide berth. Often when I do this, I will also put Hank in a sit, especially since we often pass elderly couples when we are out walking. Today I just kept walking and as the man got close, Hank lunged toward him,


If I'm reading this correctly, it seems you deviated from what usually happens, ie, you neither projected confidence in this stranger to Hank by briskly walking by him, nor did you bring Hank a comfortable distance away from the stranger as you usually do. You signaled concern by moving away yourself, but left Hank near the worrisome stranger. I'd advise walking Hank close to strangers from now on, but stay with Hank, and break his focus on the stranger as soon as you see him focus. Use a stern "Leave it" so he realizes that he is to ignore a stranger who is just walking past you. Don't transmit your fear down the leash.



> I put Hank in a sit and waited for the man to get a good distance ahead of us.


Handled well by you, and no problem for Hank.



> Inside the vet, he behaved


Back to good 'ol Hank, the love-beast. Nice story with the older couple.

Sounds like Hank is a great dog and you are a very conscientious owner, congrats!


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

There could be something that smelled "off" about the man... or maybe he had bad intentions that Hank sensed. Who knows! My Luna reacts strongly to anyone who uses or is around drugs enough to smell like them. (She doesn't lunge at them, though... she simply will growl and refuse to let them pet her).

I agree with the advice in the above post... but I wouldn't be overly concerned unless it becomes a habit.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

billsharp said:


> If I'm reading this correctly, it seems you deviated from what usually happens, ie, you neither projected confidence in this stranger to Hank by briskly walking by him, nor did you bring Hank a comfortable distance away from the stranger as you usually do. You signaled concern by moving away yourself, but left Hank near the worrisome stranger. I'd advise walking Hank close to strangers from now on, but stay with Hank, and break his focus on the stranger as soon as you see him focus. Use a stern "Leave it" so he realizes that he is to ignore a stranger who is just walking past you. Don't transmit your fear down the leash.


Very good point! Perhaps I did deviate too much from routine and that set him off. Thank you so much for your comment.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> There could be something that smelled "off" about the man... or maybe he had bad intentions that Hank sensed.


Thank you. I know Hank doesn't like one of our neighbors that I also don't like; he watches him very closely but has never lunged or acted aggressive. I am learning that my dog really does read me and my feelings. Aren't they amazing creatures?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Is your prong fitted properly? Leerburg has directions on that. He should not be pulling you all over with it on.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Is your prong fitted properly? Leerburg has directions on that. He should not be pulling you all over with it on.


That is what was especially odd about today, being pulled more than once while he was wearing it! I will double check with Leerburg. Thank you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you are right to be concerned. Your boy is officially a teenager. I think you have to continue to work through this stage, continue to take him out, continue to socialize him. Anticipate what he might do and head him off at the pass with a stern "LEAVE IT." I would probably back up a few paces with training but double or triple what you do do, not all at once. If you are walking for an hour and training for 10 minutes once a day, train for 10 minutes three times a day or better 5 minutes 6 times a day. This can be done after a potty break, some healing, some sits and downs, praise for good performance. while you are preparing dinner, 1 minute sit stay, 4 minute down stay. Long commercial -- game of Find It. After your morning walk, Sits, downs, stays, finishes. Nothing dramatic, but increase the training because it improves the bond and helps him to gain confidence in himself and in you.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I don't know about where you are but today was almost crisp here. Change in weather can = change in behavior. I like the idea that your change in behavior = change in Hank's behavior, too. Then of course once he got wound up, other stuff followed. That's kinda the way it goes. So often it's a matter of figuring out what's going on with us & how the dog is handling that coupled with normal changes in dog behavior....


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you, thank you everyone for your replies! Selzer, I will definitely work on more training. 

Middle of nowhere: interesting theory on the weather change. It frosted here today for the first time this fall, so who knows?

I should also mention, this month our morning walks changed to very early morning from mid-to-late morning. My work schedule changed and it took him a few weeks to adjust to that; maybe it's also going to take time for him to get used to starting a walk in the dark that finishes after the sun has come up.

I am glad I posted here, I am feeling a lot better about what happened and my future ability to prevent it from ever happening again.

Interestingly, we took a walk last summer with my 11-year-old son and a complete idiot jogger (sorry, no other way to put it) ran up behind us and between Hank and my son. Fortunately, he didn't react at all, and I would think that kind of situation should have set him off more than what occurred today. But Hank was also a few months younger, and as Selzer says, I definitely have a teenager on my hands who is going to test me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My friend has a Doberman. She has had him to classes forever, and he is a very nice dog. But she found out when he was 2 or 3, that there are no friendly strangers after dark.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

What link size does your prong have? If its the big links, you might want to consider getting the one with the smallest size links.


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> What link size does your prong have? If its the big links, you might want to consider getting the one with the smallest size links.


I have both sizes. He was wearing the large one this morning. Both of them seem to slide down his neck even after I place them properly per Leerburg, and I don't think either one could be any tighter. It seems like the smaller one isn't enough to penetrate through his big old mane, but maybe I will try that one again in the morning, or switch back and forth frequently to keep him on his toes. Obviously the goal is to never have to use one, but right now 96-lb. dog and 120-lb. handler are somewhat of an even match without it.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Is your prong fitted properly? Leerburg has directions on that. He should not be pulling you all over with it on.


 
this is what i was thinking as well. There's no way he would have pulled like that if his prong was properly fitted. Least IMO it wouldnt have happened. Zena is a tank at the end of a leash. I dont know how i would have managed walks some days when I first got her without a prong collar on her. 

I agree it does sound like you may have deviated from the routine a bit more than would have been okay in his mind. This might be a good time to think about changing the routine every now and again so he gets used to the fact things can change and all is still okay. Just an idea.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A 14 month old puppy will not get smaller or weaker until he is about 9. 

I almost think that sometimes dogs need the measures we use against them, because we use them. Like, when we nag, nag, nag, nag with the same command, and finally we yell and push the dog into the sit position. We have just trained that dog to ignore us until we have the loud or nasty pitch. 

Be that as it may, with horses, with dogs, the smaller bit, the smaller choke chain, the smaller prongs, actually give MORE control/better correction. I think that is because the larger item covers a larger area and provides fewer pounds per square inch. 

I outweigh my dogs by more than triple, but they could probably out pull me. They do not pull me into other people, not because they cannot, because they actually could. I don't know whether they know that or not. It's funny, a horse will feel the hand that is guiding them, and sometimes they will pull less with one person than they do with another. I think dogs are the same way. Some will just try to pull you to China. But others can pull like a freight train but will measure their power to whom they have behind the leash. 

My brother had a friend who needed two hip replacements, had RA, and other things. He was very sick and died when the dog was three, Jazzy. Jazzy could pull like a freight train. I think she could pull a freight train. Anyway when that bitch was under two, and the friend weighed 110 max, that dog would walk down one porch step and then look at him and wait for him to get down that one step. Then the dog would take one more step and look back. The strong wind could have blown him over, but Jazzy never did. The dog never sported a prong collar. She was a working line dog with high energy and high drive. It is not about how much we weigh, or the tools we use, or the lines, energy level or drive, I think the relationship has to get beyond feeling that need for the prong.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

HankGSD said:


> I have both sizes. He was wearing the large one this morning. Both of them seem to slide down his neck even after I place them properly per Leerburg, and I don't think either one could be any tighter. It seems like the smaller one isn't enough to penetrate through his big old mane, but maybe I will try that one again in the morning, or switch back and forth frequently to keep him on his toes. Obviously the goal is to never have to use one, but right now 96-lb. dog and 120-lb. handler are somewhat of an even match without it.


The smaller prongs have more prongs, though, so that could make a big difference. More "bite." And are you putting it on the live or the dead loop? Could also make a difference. I'm a novice with the prong, but a believer. I've found it may seem tight if it's down too low. If it's up there just under the ears, where it is more narrow, it isn't nearly as "tight".


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

It is my very sincere hope and goal to not have to rely on the prong for any length of time. For now, it is necessary. I appreciate everyone's advice here because you all have a wealth of experience that I do not. 

A friend here at work had a very good observation about my morning walks. Now since I work nights and walk him when I get home and I am tired and want to get to bed, Hank can probably sense I am in a hurry and that our walks are not as relaxed as they used to be. So add that to the mix of everything else that happened. 

It appears my work is cut out for me.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

You just said that he just finished antibiotics. Do you think maybe the infection he had or possible the antibiotics could be causing him to act odd. I honestly have no idea, but when I take antibiotics I get an upset stomach...so maybe he just didn't feel good and was being ornery. I have a cold right now and trust me...I was a real B!tch yesterday  Good luck with Hank! Sounds like he has a great Momma!


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## StryderPup (May 16, 2009)

I agree with the others...just chalk it up to a rough day. I know when I walk Stryder...he is all business. Although I have had alot going on the past few weeks (job changes, routine changes, etc) so neither of us have been on our games. I agree it can be difficult when your dog is 101 lbs and the walker is 126 pounds and he comes up to my hip, but never let him know that. Plus you are at teenage years...thank goodness we got through those


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1>>>> did he lunge aggressively or was it to play
or chase?

2>>>> maybe he watched the disabled person
because of his body language or sound. 

3>>> could have been a happy bark. Hank knew
there was other animals in the Vet's office so he
wanted to say hello.

4>>> he wanted to say hello to the older couple.

Hank sounds friendly. a little out of place bark or
being on alert is ok as long as you can control
the situation. teach Hank to heel on either side
with or without a leash. a pinch collar is good
but training is better. 

to help with my dogs behaviour during Vet visits
i went to the Vet 3 or 4 times a week for
treats and pets. the Vet or a member of her
staff would always perform a mock exam. i use to
take him in the back and ride him up and down
on the exam table. then we would sit in the
waiting area. i put Loki in a down or a sit
and stay there for 10 to 15 minutes. 



HankGSD said:


> 1>>>> Today we were walking along our route and a man was approaching from the opposite direction, so as I often do, I walked over into the grass, giving the man a wide berth. Often when I do this, I will also put Hank in a sit, especially since we often pass elderly couples when we are out walking. Today I just kept walking and as the man got close, Hank lunged toward him, and I believe he barked or growled. It all happened so fast that I am not clear if he barked. In any case, he pulled so hard (with a pinch collar on) that I was bent forward and pulled a few steps toward the man.
> 
> 
> 2>>>> Right after that incident, within 30 seconds, there was a man on the other side of the road who had some sort of physical disability that made him walk bent forward, kind of like Quasi-Modo, and he was almost running. Hank alerted to him and was very watchful, almost dancing next to me as we walked, never taking his eyes off the man.
> ...


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## kennajo (May 20, 2011)

Rocky was startled in the park by some teenage boys that just "appeared" out of a ravine. I was not crazy about his response even though I understood it. I was on gaurd because of those boys and they jumped out at him(in rockys eyes) and he jumped back and barked. Our dogs do sense our feelings and nervous level and we ,as their leader, need to try and anticipate things arounds us that might cause them to react. Not always easy!  Chalk it up to experience for next time.


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## BMoore (Oct 18, 2011)

As others have said, there may have been something 'off' about the man. I consider my dog's judgment of people better then my own, because they aren't fooled by charming smiles or well placed words. 
Since I've gotten Uma, something like you've described has happened twice. Several months apart. 
Once, while my mother was taking the trash out, she took Uma with her to help practice her off leash heel. Our neighbor was having a party and as they often do it got out of hand. A large drunk man approached my mother, and began the normal 'drunk talk'. When my mother would have no part of it, the man became angry and before he could do anything Uma lunged. 
My mother was able to restrain her by the collar before she made contact, but it was good to know that her protection training could kick in. 

A second time was something totally out of the norm with someone who was doing absolutely nothing 'wrong'. We were out on a walk at night with some friends, and two people were standing to the side of the sidewalk, talking. Whatever they were doing must not have sat well with Uma because she lunged at them, hackles raised and barking. It was worrisome and we immediately left the area. But really, what *were* those two doing hanging outside an alley in the middle of the night? 

Other's will, I'm sure have different opinions, but I think if your dog is perfectly well socialized, then there was something about those two people he saw that he didn't like. Maybe they smelled different, or had bad intentions towards something or someone. You never know. 

Or I could be full of BS and he may just need more training classes >.>


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## HankGSD (Oct 28, 2010)

What a difference a day makes!

I walked Hank in the afternoon instead of first thing in the morning after work so that we could be more leisurely.

1) A man walked up to us wanting to meet Hank and didn't really ask permission before getting close. Hank didn't mind at all and I put him in a sit to meet and greet.

2) A kid on a bike passed us as I was picking up a poo and wanted to talk to us. No problem there either.

3) A man in a motorized wheelchair paralleled us on the opposite side of the road. Hank watched him but didn't react except to pay close attention to him.

4) Finally, the local K9 officer drove past us and stopped to admire Hank, then got his own shepherd out. Hank sat nice as I talked with the officer, and then when he put his dog back in the truck, Hank got some petting from the officer.

Thanks again to everyone!!!


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