# Forging



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Did you know forging affect 4 out of 5 dogs in competition heeling? Well, it's true! Actually, not really. Anyhoo ... :crazy:

So what are some of the techniques you use to fight forging? Please share!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Young and enthusiastic dogs sometimes forge. They are green and haven't learned the fine tuning of heeling. It takes time for heeling to be really good. I don't like to discourage the young and green, so I work at helping them learn where the rewardable position is. 

Overloading in drive makes mine forge. I have to adjust to keep the drive level workable.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Left turns. Left turns push into the dog, and can help get them back. Left turns also ask the dog to slow down, because you are the one who has to move more, not the dog. Avoid a lot of right turns with a forging dog since they ask a dog to speed up. 

Only reward in the correct spot and pay attention to the location of your reward. Most people inadvertantly reward forward. The dog in anticipation on the reward will move forward. I will throw the reward behind me and usually off to the left on a dog that's forging. Also, if you find you have a problem with crowding you're probably rewarding too often from your right hand. 

I will use collar corrections, but the trick is to mark and reward the instant they are in the correct position. I also won't sacrifice enthusiasm for position though, so I won't beat the dog down. I will use my body to help them adjust to the correct position and then reward there. 

I will also play with the drive level I am using. My dogs are more likely to forge for their toys...so if that's a major problem I might go to food. And within food you can adjust too. Kibble is probably the lowest.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like great advice! And left turns do help with a forging dog (mine!).


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Great advice indeed. Thanks Samba and JKlatsky! We'll be doing lots of left turn and move back to food in the next few weeks. I think we are definitely looking at a case of overloading. Today at training I had Ike sitting in heel or at least I thought I did and then I heard someone said "He is not sitting". I looked down expecting to find the hover butt sit. Nope, his butt was down. It was his front two feet that were off the ground and he was just "sitting" there holding that kangaroo-ish position, waiting for his next command. So I guess add the new "kangaroo sit" to the list of things we have to work on lol.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Samba said:


> Overloading in drive makes mine forge. I have to adjust to keep the drive level workable.


In English, please?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When Nikon forges I stop heeling forward and start skipping backward, "tapping" him a few times like a wake up call, "hello dog, where were you?" and then break back into heeling. This kind of doodling in general has helped him pay more attention to turns and changes in pace.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Lies for the tip. That's similar to what my TD suggests. Move around, spin, turn, back up, keep him guessing.

Details, details, details ... getting the big picture in place was easy. Getting these little things right ... not so much!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like it because it's a correction but also a wake up call. Instead of just yanking on the dog to get him to be here or there, I start moving backward and correct so it's more like, "Hey, I am back here going this way, where are you?" than constantly nagging the dog to keep the shoulders aligned. More of teaching the dog to pay attention than being super nit-picky about position. For position I "take it inside" which means food instead of toys, less drive but more thinking/learning from the dog and taking it more slowly but being really precise.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Those more precise movements do wake the dog up and require more attention. When I get the attention, I help the dog find the right spot. I may guide, I might use my hand to draw attention to the focal point. As soon as the dog is correct, I mark that. If the dog is more accomplished and I feel that we can get several steps of correctness, then I really let the dog know that it is in the right place. "that's it! really nice! good job!" in a very happy and admiring tone of voice. The manuevering makes them engage more and then the praise of correctness... they seem to understand this is what is wanted.

I am not saying this is what you particularly are doing... but I do see this often. People work to get the correctness and then when the dog gets it right they seem to take it for granted and keep going. If I am struggling for particular picayune position (to the dog), like in heeling, once we achieve it I really do make a marked change in my interaction with the dog as we are moving. Stopping to mark it each time results in very little heeling practice, so the bridge communication is very important.

If the dog is not "finding" the right place, I might even just hold physically hold them there. Sometimes I am phooey on shaping.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmm ... I think you have been spying on me? How do you know that is what I've been doing!? 

I definitely need to praise more while heeling. I usually praise when we stop but then stopping at heel position is not his problem. I had my TD and a few others watch the heeling the other day and their conclusion is he knows the heel position very well ... WHEN YOU GUYS ARE NOT MOVING. And because he is pretty good with his rear end awareness stuff, he can back into heel position very fast from anywhere - as soon as he stops and he realizes that he is off, he flies back to heel. So at the beginning he is correct and at the end he is correct (or he makes himself correct), it's the middle where he is all over the map. 

Of course, it also does not help that he is still hopping ... hard to keep heel position when you hop instead of walk ... I think there it is just a matter of too much drive for the exercise. I just need to tone it down for him.


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

Left turns, Left pivots.... and the biggest of all- reward from the left hand! I have started rewarding from my left hand and dropping a ball a little bit behind me. It has worked for Eris! If you give the reward from the right hand, you are only drawing the dog into you, asking for crowding.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, when Hogan is bouncing, pouncing along like a trick pony it is hard for me to tell where his position is exactly. It is a bit of work balancing drive and correctness. Sometimes you have to kind of go back and forth between the two in different sessions. One time allow more drive, the next work on correctness with less drive... back and forth until the two come together.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Nothing to add but... when I read those threads all I want is to take my dog and work! Too bad it is 00:11 AM, there is a storm out there and I still don't finish my Pathology homework...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Dianna, so far I have been giving him the ball right above him, slightly to the left side of his head but I like the idea of dropping the ball behind him. I may even try throwing it behind. Thanks!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

This is from this morning. It was meant to be a lower drive session - hence the use of a tug instead of a ball but as you can see Ike had other ideas lol. It's hard to tell whether the forging has gotten better or not because Ike's wildness. I think I see a slight improvement from last month. Any critique/suggestion welcome.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jason, you are a natural and Ike is a kangaroo!
I think his exhuberance will do both of you just fine. I wish Karlo was so bouncy, you can always snuff it, to bring it up is much, much harder.
What about that ball video? I bet it is full of energy!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I WISH Stark was that enthusiastic about heeling and OB work! 

WOW.... I am soooooo loving Ike!

Seriously, I agree with Jane, your a natural!

There's a reason you don't see any video of me doing OB work with Stark... lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

He looks good, maybe forging and crowding you a bit at times but he really responds well to your body, like left turns, and you're so good with the reward I doubt it's really a problem. He's such a bouncy puppy! I bet he will settle in and look super!

Right now I'm kind of what Samba describes, drive vs. correctness depending on the session and my goals for that session. Any time my dog sustains the level of drive I want for some time, I always reward. Like, say we're just going from the van out to the field and he decides to offer really nice prancy heeling along the way. I didn't ask for that or really care, but I reward that.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I like his enthusiasm. 

Having had a couple bouncing dogs (especially at fast paces) all I do to fix it is issue a downward directional correction a couple of times followed by a quick reward when they get it right. I don't know how it would work for you, but I would just hold the lead and lock it by my left leg, and then when my dog would bounce it would be an instant correction. Seemed to be very effective and fix the bouncing within a couple sessions. I don't like to let it go on because it can become a habit- so almost as soon as they show that behavior I will give a negative for it. The Mohnwiese site on heeling addresses the importance of correcting the bouncing pretty early on, apparently it was a problem with Ellute- just so you don't think I'm making it up!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Every one does training in their own way, so nothing is the only way. For me, once I am past the food luring, I don't do a lot of off leash heeling training. I find the leash so helpful in guiding or correcting the dog so that we don't practice unwanted behaviors. Such as described above regarding bouncing.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> I don't like to let it go on because it can become a habit- so almost as soon as they show that behavior I will give a negative for it. The Mohnwiese site on heeling addresses the importance of correcting the bouncing pretty early on, apparently it was a problem with Ellute- just so you don't think I'm making it up!


Great, now you tell me ...

Actually what's weird is I read the Mohnwiese method on heeling and I taught Ike's heeling basically using a combination of Mohnwiese and Ellis but somehow when I was reading it the first time (right before I got Ike) I skipped over the part about not letting the dog jump to get the food ... or I didn't take it seriously enough! A few weeks ago, someone lent me Joanne Plumb's DVD and she makes her dogs jump up for the reward. The idea is jumping for the reward will improve the dogs' collection and get the dogs to push off with their back legs when heeling. Is it possible that I've overtrained that part, that Ike now has TOO MUCH collection in his steps, hence the bounciness?

Also, this has me wondering: when heeling, at some point Ike would settle into a nice trot for a few steps and then he would go back to bouncing. I posted this video on the other board just for laughs ... but I am curious as to why he would go into a prance like this by himself. What's going on there? What's going through his mind as he goes into a trot? Is he responding to something he is seeing in me? Or is he just doing it for the heck of it. Obviously I don't think getting him to prance like THAT is realistic (nor really desirable lol) but I wonder how I can get it into his head that the trot is what I want.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Another question I have is: at this point, given how wild he is when heeling, getting him to trot would almost be like a capping exercise for him, right? The idea is to teach him to control himself and not simply give full, unbridled expression to his drive? When Ellis saw him as a 6 months old pup, he commented that this boy is a very extroverted, expressive pup that likes to wear his emotion on his sleeves ... no kidding!

I'm going to try the downward pressure leash idea tomorrow. Normally I do heel with a leash but when we were filming the heeling over the weekend, someone yelled out "DROP THE LEASH" and like a trained circus monkey, I did  Just doing what I am told.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Well you do reward high. He's probably bouncing from enthusiasm and anticipation of the reward and a little loss of control. 

I think that you get that prance when all the energy that they are putting into bouncing goes instead into the movement of the legs. I actually get a really cool front leg hop on Cade that almost looks like a flying lead change when he's really amped about what we're doing and he's trying to contain himself. Me slowing down my pace also can get him to bump into a more lifting prance. 

This was my most recent effort with Cade (who I taught to heel using a combo on Mohnwiese and Debby Zappia) He's just learning his finish and his about turn, so he's a little behind me on those and working out his position...But I think you can see in spots the lifting I was talking about. 

Actually upon reviewing the video you can see where he starts to bounce in the fast pace, You can't hear me give him a verbal negative but I do and then he settles down off the bouncing.







ETA- Yes I think you're right- like a capping exercise.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

That's interesting. Cade went into a beautiful trot right after you corrected him for bouncing. Maybe I am not yelling at Ike enough


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Doesn't Javir seem like he has a bouncing problem (Holy jumpin' finish!). I've seen videos of really prancing dogs like Lary and Quel but Javir is only one I have found that bounces like that (I'm sure there are others ...)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It looks like it might be the "collection" that is contributing.
If you watch, Ike gets both back legs under himself at the same time. This normally would propel him pretty far forward. But, if he goes forward he will be way out of position. He tends to take the propulsion into upward motion as that helps keep him in the reward zone better.

Why is he collecting up that much? Is it an attempt to get to the reward? Is it because he was trained to move that way? 

Can you experiment and find what helps him keep a normal stride with all four legs rather than gather the two back ones up under him? Longer strides on your part? Moving faster? 
Holding him down with the lead so he can not move forward forged or up in the air? I think you will have to try and see what works.

I am sure drive adds to it? Can you get him into enough drive with just your voice for the heeling so he can practice more "relaxed" striding?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I am going to try these suggestions in the next few days and see what works. I definitely thinks he is over-collecting. Good call on Ike getting both back legs under himself at the same time. I didn't see it until you pointed it out.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba said:


> Longer strides on your part? Moving faster?


Ike needs a taller handler with longer legs!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Boy, I had no idea it was this hard to train heeling. 
Jason, maybe it would help to put the tug away or in your pocket and maybe try food in your left hand. Something that brings a little less drive for a while and that you can use to get the correct position. I got a dog some years back who forged and crowded. I used food in my left hand and a clicker to mark where the correct position was. Took a while but her position was pretty perfect after that. I only use that with very small pups and dogs who have been trained incorrectly but it does work. He looks nice but he is too excited.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have a question Jason. I realize that video is edited so could be that but do you always give a reward before the end of ten seconds? I counted twice where you made it to nine and then the toy came up. The rest of the time it was under five seconds. Have you tried heeling longer so he can settle a bit without that toy flying up in the air so often? Most dogs kind of hop when they first start heeling and then settle into the heeling but it doesn't seem like Ike has a chance to settle, at least in that first video you posted. How about an un-edited version?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, thanks for the comment. Ike will settle down if we just keep heeling. I guess what I was doing there was trying to reward the very moment he settles down. That's why you see me popping out the toy the moment he gives me a few "normal" steps. It's a fault of my training style for sure. In teaching me helper work, my TD noticed that I've a tendency to want to shove the sleeve right into the dog's mouth instead of letting the dogs come up and get it because I want the dogs to succeed so badly. His words were I wanted the dogs to get it more than the dogs want to get it. So I think why I was rewarding so fast was because I didn't want Ike to lose the trot and go back to bouncing.

I'll post an unedited video or make a new one for you guys to see soon.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You are giving the "big" reward all the time and as I said, seems much too quick. Try heeling and when you think it's great, simply praise him and keep going. There are other ways to tell the dog you like what he is doing. It looks like he knows what heeling is but you are keep telling him you are happy with the bouncing.

I have gone back and forth with some dogs where I have used food for correctness and then I brought the toy in for more drive and then back to food if the dog got too drivey. Samba has touched on the same idea in this thread.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I am going to move to food for his heeling for the next few weeks to bring his drive down some. As Samba told me, it looks like his engine is running a little too hot right now. 

Here are the remaining footages from this weekend. As you can see, I was experimenting with different methods. 

- The first method was suggested by the training director. The idea is whenever Ike starts to forge and bump, I change direction or spin away from him and then use the leash pops to supply pressure until he finds the heel position again. He is not big on toy reward other than to relieve stress and take the edge off after a training session. In fact, he always tells me that I baby Ike too much 
- The second method is what everyone else in the club is doing right now: toy under the armpit. I don't like this one at all and I'm pretty sure it's inappropriate for Ike anyway.
- The third is the one that I use most of the time, tug over his head.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Deleted. Anne already said it...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Jason, i still couldn't count longer than ten seconds. The dogs have to do the behavior we want them to do to learn it. Meaning, you have 8 seconds of jumping and one or two seconds of the right behavior and then out comes the toy. He is doing more of the behavior you don't want and then kind of accidentally doing what you do want. IMO, you are not making it clear what you want. People do this for the barking in protection also. One or two barks and grip. Again, the dog has to do the behavior to learn to do the behavior. Make sense? They have to sustain it to learn it is what I am trying to say.
I also would not be doing that back up all the time, I don't think that is teaching him anything as far as what you want and the sharp lefts are not either. Try going in more of a big arch -like left circle and try counting to 25 or 30 before the reward. I heard the advise there at the end about quick rewards but I am thinking that is not correct in this situation.

Edited to add: Try adjusting your pace as well to see what fits your dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, the reason I am saying the turns and back ups don't work here is because they load him. You don't need more drive. Also, if you are afraid that waiting to reward will make him flat or bored, I really don't see that happening with this kind of dog. If it does, it will not be a problem to bring it back, that's for sure. I can get 4 month old pups heeling longer without a reward than you are here, so, I am pretty confident that waiting and maybe quietly saying "yes" as he continues to do it right, will work.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Anne. I see what you are saying about the problem with rewarding too soon and too often. I feel pretty sure your way will work nicely with him. I think he has enough drive and focus to heel a lot longer than what I have been doing with him. I'm going to work on heeling him in a big wide circle and letting him find his own rhythm.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Anne is on track!! 

I have/had the same problem with my male.. Until I started waiting him out.. The first 10 - 15 paces or more he would (and sometimes still will) bounce/hop along beside me.. He was in correct position but I didn't like it. What I also had to do was give him some corrections to get him to knock it off and settle.. Once I got the correct pacing/behavior I rewarded, extending our distance further and further.. Keeping the toy out of sight helps a lot.. Especially for dogs that are so driven for it..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The rhythm part is really important also. If you get him in one, try to encourage it with your body movements. I will use my movements in time with the dog, ( usually my shoulders and a little with my arms), to encourage the dog to sustain it. It really works if you can do it right. Then you just kind of fade that out. A dog can sustain a behavior longer when there is rhythm, that is why we try to encourage that in the barking phase, because the dog can bark longer that way and it also makes it's own drive and brings out more power.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Since this is in the AKC section I am guessing you are going to be trialing your dog in AKC not in SchH. (if this not the case, ignore all this advice) 

AKC competition heeling is very different than SchH heeling. (yes, It Really Is ) SchH judges seem to give a little leeway to the almost correct dog if he looks like he is happy about heeling, AKC judges (almost all of them) look for one thing: 100% precision. A flat dog will not be docked for points as long as he is 100% correct, but a happy dog a couple of inches out of place and you will be docked points.

Watching the video above, most judges are going to probably take at least 5-10 points off the top for your heeling and then any other mistakes are going to cost you further. * Honestly, the judges may enjoy watching your dog, may even tell you that, but they will KILL you in points. *
 
In AKC, you are competing against the BC's and Goldens and Poodles and you are going to need "perfection" if you want anything other than a green ribbon. Most Novice B ribbons are handed out at 195 and higher these days at a trial of any size. a couple bumps, the dog touching you in any form or fashion, or instances of the dog forging and out of the pretty colored ribbons at most shows. 

If placements and scores are not important to you, or if you are going over to do SchH also - I would not worry too much about AKC type heeling but if you wanting to compete in AKC and want great scores in AKC you are going to have correct the heeling.

You've got a nice dog, capable of great scores.... My advice: start working with an OTCH handler who can get your dog as far as he is capable.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

He is a schutzhund critter. But of course, I do know some very accomplished schutzhund competitors that have a learned a good deal from the other obedience venues. Just the criteria for the judged performance are different. It is all dog training.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Tammy, someday I like to show Ike in AKC but like Samba said, SchH will come first. But the thing with Ike right now is even for SchH he needs to be more precise and in control than that. He is very young and I think up to this point I have instilled in him an enthusiasm for heeling - which is good - but I feel it's time to get more serious about not letting him built, indulge, prolong too many bad habits, and certainly not to let him get stuck in too high of a drive when doing obedience. 

Interestingly, one thing that was brought to my attention at training last Tuesday was he is a big dog and I am not a big person so, visually, small mistakes in heeling position will look a lot of worse with us than if Ike has a taller handler. Never thought of it like that before.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree with the big dog/small handler. I am 5'3" and my 3 year old is 26 something inches and 90-95 pounds...and leggy. It is much harder for him to stay in heel position at my normal pace because his stride is so dang long! He has to really stay collected and even move his motion upward instead of forward to keep from overtaking me in two steps.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Upward instead of forward is a good way of putting it. It kind of reminds me of Javir Talka Marda and the way he is alway prancing "upward" ...


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

When I watched the heeling video in the beginning of this thread, I saw you encouraging your pup to come up. That is where his reward is, and that is where he wants to be. Thats why all the hopping. Have you ever heard of scoot-sit heeling?? It is the way we train the heel. Since your dog already knows the position, try heeling with just one step. It is a very short step, just enough for the dog to move forward. Once they are comfortable with the one step, you go to two steps, etc. This is how we start pups. We also train with a clicker and food reward. As soon as the butt is down, click, reward. Try this inside in front of a mirror so you can see your dog. Go back to the very basic and retrain it. I wish I had a camera to show you what I mean.


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