# The price of a companion puppy.



## Sieger

:greet:

I’m looking for a well-tempered German Shepherd (without a sloped topline) as a companion pet, and to work with heavily on obedience. (no Schutzhund, herding, show etc.) 

I have been reading a bit on the forums and have seensome people mention that you get what you paid for. Some say that if you’re looking for purely a companion dog, then you should buy no higher than $600. However, all the breeders I’ve looked up sell for $1000+. I’m wondering where I’d find cheaper puppies without buying from a “backyard breeder”, and if I should consider buying cheaper at all. 

I’d love to hear your opinions, and apologize for my ignorance on the subject.


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## Jax08

I don't know who said to not spend more than $600 but I would look for the breeder first and then evaluate the price. Most working line puppies cost about $1500. 

What area are you and how far are you willing to go to get a puppy? Have you considered a rescue? There is a boy I"m working with right now that is going to make someone a fantastic ob dog (not yet up for adoption).


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## Carriesue

My pup is just going to be a companion dog and he was $1,550, I'd be real nervous getting a young pup for just $600 from a 'good' breeder. Though I guess I could see a reputable breeder selling an older puppy slightly cheaper but even then...

I think if you don't want to pay that much, you'll probably need to go with a rescue. There's plenty of really great dogs in rescues.


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## Bubbles

I got bubbles for 150$. I see nothing wrong with getting a puppy from a family (that are not professional breeders) as long as the dogs are healthy and the adult dogs are friendly.


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## Magwart

Many rescues see dogs come through around the age of adolescence who are high-drive dogs who look distinctively like working line dogs -- but pet homes couldn't handle the drive and gave up on them without training them or exercising them. They often aren't "bad" dogs--they just were expected to be couch potatoes and had no outlet for their energy so they got surrendered by families who didn't have time for them...or escaped and ended up on the streets. That sort of dog might fit your needs well.


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## Emoore

Bubbles said:


> I got bubbles for 150$. I see nothing wrong with getting a puppy from a family (that are not professional breeders) as long as the dogs are healthy and the adult dogs are friendly.


I'll be really interested to hear your opinion on this 5 or 6 years down the road. I thought the same way when I bought my $300 puppy ten years ago.


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## gagsd

In Georgia, you can get a nice puppy for less than $1000.... Titled, hip/health checked and raised well.

I have even seen litters in the AJC for $500 from Sch titled parents. Not sure who the breeder was or anything else about the litter.


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## Sieger

I have had a rescue GSD, and although she was wonderful, I have decided to go with a breeder this time. Also, I do not have a large, fenced back yard- which most rescues require. I am willing to pay a reasonable price for my puppy, and just wanted to clarify what I'd seen in the forums. 

Jax, I'm located in FL and willing to travel to Georgia and Alabama.

Thanks for you input.


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## Anubis_Star

Emoore said:


> I'll be really interested to hear your opinion on this 5 or 6 years down the road. I thought the same way when I bought my $300 puppy ten years ago.


Zeke was my first german shepherd. I got him for 600$ out of the newspaper. I got REAL lucky as far as temperament goes, he is a doll. However I got him at 7 weeks, socialized and trained EXTENSIVELY from the day I brought him home, and I worked with a great trainer in the area who specializes in working breeds (national schutzhund judge, does some training for local PDs, etc...). TEMPERAMENT we got lucky, health... he definitely isn't the worst GSD I've seen, by far, but he has had his share of SEVERAL genetic health issues that in total I've estimated to have cost about 3,000$ in diagnosis alone. One is a genetic, chronic lifelong staph infection of mucus membranes that requires medication every couple of months when it flares up. 

Luther was purchased for 800$ from the newspaper. Health, he was great... until he hit 6 months old, was cryptorchid requiring a 300$ neuter AND had an umbilical hernia that required a 200$ repair... don't even get me started on temperament issues. Long story short, thousands of dollars in trianing and damage later, he was euthanized at 3.5 years of age because of aggression.

You DO get what you pay for. Some are luckier then others. At the end of the day, I DID get lucky with Zeke seeing as how he came from a BAD breeder. But you still get what you pay for.

I would NEVER again buy from a breeder that wasn't breeding titled, proven working line stock with german ratings. Yes, that brings up the whole show line vs working line blah blah debate.... in my personal opinion the breed should be working line, but same goes for show line people. If you can't handle what GOOD breeders are producing, that is proven working line stock (or titled show stock), then you can't and shouldn't handle the breed. Don't water it down to make it a lab in a GSDs clothing. 

My next pup will be largely companion, I just put a deposit down and my next pup will be 1500$ from a WORKING breeder. But I will have a much better dog in the long run.

BTW, GSDs are SUPPOSE to have a slight slope, yes it is often *cough*grossly*cough* exaggerated in some show lines, but the slope should be present. Ace of Nike was a recent sieger, working line, note the slope


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## doggiedad

you want a well bred dog. it doesn't matter if you want
a pet/companion, couch potato, show dog, ring sport
whatever, you want a well bred dog. find a reputable breeder
and pay the reputable price. good luck with the new pup.


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## Zeeva

I have a few questions for you and I don't mean to pry so you don't have to answer:

Are you a first time doggie owner? If so I suggest fostering. I didn't know if I could handle a doggie and when I realized I could I foster failed him. THE best failure of my life 

Do you qualms with getting a rescue? Puppydom although cute is a very tough stage to handle. And although rescues can come with shady backgrounds I think it's a noble cause and things can be worked out if you take as much time finding a breeder as you do finding the right rescue.

Will others be taking care of the pup? I take care of my two pretty much on my own with some support from the husband. I wish I had more support but it's just me and at times I get overwhelmed...

I don't mean to scare you. Just share my experience and hand over my two cents. Whatever you chose keep us posted.


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## codmaster

BTW, a GSD is "supposed to have" a LEVEL back and it only looks "sloping" when the dog is "Stacked" in a show pose.


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## PatchonGSD

Keep in mind that from a good breeder, price also reflects (or should) a dog that is healthy and sound in mind and body-not just what sort of work the dog is capable of.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley

Xena was very inexpensive and we picked her ourselves (largest puppy in the litter and biggest attention hog, which hasn't changed). She knows sit, down, up, shake, and speak both with words and hand signals. If she wants something, she sits in front of us while we ask her what she wants (Xena want food, Xena want water, etc) and barks when we guess it right. She recently started bringing us her leash when she wants to go for a walk. On the downside, we haven't had much luck getting her to heel and roll over and it's hard to get her to focus around distractions. But she's extremely intelligent for a $350 dog


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## Anubis_Star

:surrender: I wan to apologize, my previous post came off as sounding rather rude, which it never should. Everyone on this forum (for the most part) has only ever displayed kindness when answering questions.

I am not allowed to post when I am in a bad mood, especially when I'm preparing to go work a 12 hour graveyard shift.

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:


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## kmarti32

I paid $500 for Diesel. Got him from a byb. He's a great dog and we got really lucky as far as temperament. But he's 19 months now and has some health issues that have cost us a lot of money and we're still trying to figure it all out. He has a poor immune system. As much as I love my dog, I will NEVER buy from a byb again. My next pup will be from a breeder and of working lines. 

And I will expect to pay a lot! Good luck in your search.


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## Anitsisqua

I had a horrific experience with a backyard bred pup. Thousands of dollars and countless hours of misery later, I lost him.

I bought Gabe for $1,000, and he was on the low end price-wise. Let me tell you, the peace of mind about his health is worth so much more than what I paid for him.


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## Sieger

Yes, I've had a rescue GSD before and have taken care of many dogs. I feel that I'm a capable GSD handler and yes, it will just be me taking care of the dog. I wanted to go with a breeder this time around, since my shelter GSD had many health issues. 
I'm also aware that GSD's should have a slightly sloped topline.

Thanks for all the input, really. I will choose to buy from a working breeder when I feel that it's the right time for me to get a dog. I'll keep you posted.


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## doggiedad

with this kind of purchase what kind of lineage
are you buying? 



Bubbles said:


> I got bubbles for 150$. I see nothing wrong with getting a puppy from a family (that are not professional breeders) as long as the dogs are healthy and the adult dogs are friendly.


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## Freestep

I think the best way to go about getting a GSD pup is to find a breeder you are comfortable with first. Then wait for a pup from them. The cost may vary, but ballpark for a well-bred GSD pup is $1500-2000 (depending on the bloodline, etc). I'm not saying you can't find a wonderful companion for less than that, but it's always a gamble. Best is to stack the odds in your favor with a breeder that is experienced and knowledgable in the breed, does health testing, and actually works their dogs in some venue--either titling in sport or doing real-world jobs like police, SAR, herding, service, etc.


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## gagsd

Hey Doggiedad... my first GSD was $125. The next week the litter was in the paper for $75. I got ripped off! 
He was a great dog though, lived to be 12 years old.

My most recent puppy from a Sch3 male and svv1 female was $850.

I have to say.... high price has very little, if any, bearing on future health.


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## gagsd

Freestep said:


> .... The cost may vary, but ballpark for a well-bred GSD pup is $1500-2000 (depending on the bloodline, etc).....


Do you really think so? Really nice litters from reputable people that compete internationally and breed.... I have seen at the most $1500.
The breeders that charge more seem to be the really popular "internet" breeders. By that I just mean those that have a strong and positive online presence.


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## sddeadeye

My first GSD I paid $200 for. I lost him at 10 months old due to an autoimmune disorder. My next GSD I will likely be paying around the $1000-1500 amount and will have to be flown in due to lack of reputable breeders in my immediate area.


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## Mary Beth

For the OP, I know it is "sticker shock" but as was posted in another thread "pay now, or pay later". Considering not only the vet cost but the heartbreak of watching your puppy or dog suffer, I am for waiting and paying the cost from a reputable breeder (make sure both parents have good hips, parentage is cleared from DM, that the breeder has a health guarantee) rather than buy a puppy that is cheaper but without any of those guarantees.

To Anabis, I found your post with your handsome Zeke very informative. In my view, the frank direct posts, like yours was, can be the most educational.


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## Mary Beth

sddeadeye said:


> My first GSD I paid $200 for. I lost him at 10 months old due to an autoimmune disorder. My next GSD I will likely be paying around the $1000-1500 amount and will have to be flown in due to lack of reputable breeders in my immediate area.


Same here. In fact, I'm keeping a list. PM me if you want suggestions.


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## Jax08

Sieger said:


> Some say that if you’re looking for purely a companion dog, then you should buy no higher than $600. However, all the breeders I’ve looked up sell for $1000+. I’m wondering where I’d find cheaper puppies without buying from a “backyard breeder”, and if I should consider buying cheaper at all.
> .


Let's put it this way. A working line puppy costs about $1500. Out of the litter, not all are great working prospects but still have the same breeding. Those puppies aren't "worth" less because they aren't the top working prospects. They are worth just as much to the people looking for a well bred companion.  The worth doesn't decrease because the venue does.


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## Zookeep

doggiedad said:


> with this kind of purchase what kind of lineage
> are you buying?


Some of us are not buying lineage; we are just buying dogs.


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## Rallhaus

raising a puppy - show ratings, titles, hip and elbow xrays, dna testing - all costs LOTS money...... I have well over 5000$ into Bravo and he's not yet 2 years old. By the time he has his working title, show title and breed survey I'll have 8000$ into him.

puppies from such a sire and dam SHOULD cost more than 600$. a fair price for a quality puppy from quality dire and dam starts at 1500$.

you can find some for less, but you'll most likely get the leftover pup, one with a fault - over bite, temperament issues, conformation issues, no guarantee, etc....

do your homework and find a good breeder, save the money and get a quality puppy.


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## Bubbles

doggiedad said:


> with this kind of purchase what kind of lineage
> are you buying?


Sorry, but I don't care about lineage. Bubbles is my companion. She is not for a show or breeding dog. Her only purpose is to be a dog; Go for walks, be petted, find my keys, be spoiled, and to enjoy a good life. Any and every dog deserves to have a good home no matter the price or lineage.


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## Xeph

My first GSD was $250. He's still doing extremely well at 8.5 years old.

I paid $2000 for a dog with "impeccable breeding", and he was an absolute nutter butter


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## dazedtrucker

Xeph said:


> My first GSD was $250. He's still doing extremely well at 8.5 years old.
> 
> I paid $2000 for a dog with "impeccable breeding", and he was an absolute nutter butter



I can relate to this. My 1st was 250, BYB, and she was fabulous. My more "expensive" boy is gorgeous, but has nerve issues... my 2 cents is pay alot of attention to health issues, hips, elbows, DM... vet bills are not fun, and neither is a dog that is unhealthy and you love and it rips your heart out because he is sick... do research on the tempermant of the pup you are considering. It is just as easy to fall in love with a quality dog... don't put yourself through the pain of a messed up one... and buying a bad pup encourages breeding MORE messed up pups.... dont wanna do that!


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## holland

I don't agree with the comment you get what you pay for I have spent 1500 on a dog and she is in good health has a wonderful temperment and I have never regretted paying 1500-I have also spent 450 0 and 20-and the dogs have been healthy and without temperment issues-the 0 was a gift from a friend who was a dog breeder and 20 was a rescue -you can find wonderful dogs at rescue

I have also known people over the years who have been in the right place at the right time and got a dog for free because the owner knew it was going to a working home and felt it would be best if the dog was worked. I train with someone right now who was given a dog for free (not a GSD) she goes to a lot of shows and the breeder wanted her to go to a show home (I think)


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## Whiteshepherds

A good breeder isn't (normally) going to sell their pups for $100 but a bad breeder will happily take $1500 if they can get it, so price isn't always the best indicator of a good dog.


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## Lauri & The Gang

> I see nothing wrong with getting a puppy from a family (that are not professional breeders) as long as the dogs are healthy and the adult dogs are friendly.


How can you tell if a dog is "healthy"? 

You can't see the problems inside a dog just by looking at it. 

For me, the bare minimum I would accept is OFA hip & elbow certification on both parents and all 4 grand parents.

While I know that won't remove the risk of Hip Dysplasia it will tip the odds in my favor. And it shows me that the breeder is concerned about the health of the puppies they produce.

How can you tell if a dog has good temperament? Just meeting them in their home isn't enough. I had a dog that was rock solid at home and a basket case everywhere else.

If you want a great companion that you can take everywhere with you they will need to have a very sound, stable temperament.

The only way to PROVE temperament is to TEST the dogs.

Again, for me the bare minimum would be a ATTS (American Temperament Test Society) certification.

Xrays and the test would cost around $500 per dog. If someone isn't willing to invest that small amount in the dogs they plan to use for producing puppies then they are NOT a good breeder.


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## SiegersMom

My dog is a byb. I paid $350 and have had no trouble. He is only 2.5 but gets a clean bill of health from my vet who always comments on what a great dog he is. Temperment was my biggest concern w/ a byb but I met and spent time with the parents and they were great. Would I breed my dog...no. Would I buy a byb again...most likely not because I do think I got lucky. But I was very worried about getting a high priced high, drive dog that I could not handle. The more I researched and looked at breeders the more confusing it got. Now having worked with my dog and his trainer who raises GSD's I feel ready to take on a dog with a better pedigree. My trainer tells me that my dog has really good drive.(obed and Rally training no schutz.) I consider him to be pretty easy to handle. I jokingly call him my "Starter Dog" because I am making all my training mistakes on him. Love him to pieces...he is the best dog I have ever had.


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## msvette2u

> I got lucky


This whole debate could be summed up in that sentence. 
We've gotten lucky quite a few times rescuing our current pets, but this last GSD we got a puppy with elbow dysplasia. He is a rescue. 

As Lauri said, having parents and grandparents with no ED/HD stacks the odds in your favor.

It's devastating to be told that even with surgery, to the tune of over 2k, your dog only has a 30% chance of being okay, and I'd never wish that on my worst enemy


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## Sunflowers

Zookeep said:


> Some of us are not buying lineage; we are just buying dogs.


Hans is my first GSD. 

I felt I was too inexperienced to take chances, so I looked for a trustworthy breeder and tried to stack the odds in my favor by getting a dog that would more than likely turn out well, temperament, trainability and health wise. 

I do feel that I got what I wanted, and got what I can handle. I would not have been able to handle a higher energy, over the top drive dog. Hans still has lots of both, but he was matched (by someone who knows what she is doing) to what we could provide as far as lifestyle and the dog's needs, which is why I am glad I went the route I did.

I think paying more for "lineage" is not about being a pedigree snob, it is about looking at the dog's genetics and attempting to predict what the dog is going to be like. Even that is not 100%, but it at least is an attempt at controlling what you get.


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## Bubbles

Lauri & The Gang said:


> How can you tell if a dog is "healthy"?
> 
> You can't see the problems inside a dog just by looking at it.
> 
> For me, the bare minimum I would accept is OFA hip & elbow certification on both parents and all 4 grand parents.
> 
> While I know that won't remove the risk of Hip Dysplasia it will tip the odds in my favor. And it shows me that the breeder is concerned about the health of the puppies they produce.
> 
> How can you tell if a dog has good temperament? Just meeting them in their home isn't enough. I had a dog that was rock solid at home and a basket case everywhere else.
> 
> If you want a great companion that you can take everywhere with you they will need to have a very sound, stable temperament.
> 
> The only way to PROVE temperament is to TEST the dogs.
> 
> Again, for me the bare minimum would be a ATTS (American Temperament Test Society) certification.
> 
> Xrays and the test would cost around $500 per dog. If someone isn't willing to invest that small amount in the dogs they plan to use for producing puppies then they are NOT a good breeder.


You do realize you can take a puppy to a vet. That's what I did. If she wasn't healthy I would have taken her back.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Zookeep said:


> Some of us are not buying lineage; we are just buying dogs.


But you are buying the lineage _*behind *_that dog.

You are buying the parents genes, the grandparents genes, the great-grandparents genes.

You are buying the temperament of the parents. More-so of the mother since she is the one that raises the puppies from birth to 8 weeks of age and that is the most critical imprinting time in a dogs life.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Bubbles said:


> You do realize you can take a puppy to a vet. That's what I did. If she wasn't healthy I would have taken her back.


Taking a puppy to the vet won't tell you if it will develop hip or elbow Dysplasia, EPI, epilepsy, etc.

Those are things that come to light after the puppy matures.

If your puppy was diagnosed with hip Dysplasia at 2 years of age would you send her back?


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## Bubbles

No, I would not. I'd take care of her.


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## Sunflowers

It is always the luck of the draw. But as long as people are willing to take bigger risks in exchange for a low price, there will be breeders who keep throwing random GSDs together and selling the puppies.


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## vickip9

Xeph said:


> My first GSD was $250. He's still doing extremely well at 8.5 years old.
> 
> I paid $2000 for a dog with "impeccable breeding", and he was an absolute nutter butter


 
:rofl: Couldn't agree more! 

I paid $200 for my boy.. got him from someone on CraigsList and he got him from a BYB. This dog is one of the BEST dogs I have ever had. Level-headed, confident and alert yet aloof unless faced with a threat (very good at distinguishing between threat vs. non-threat), excellent temperment, playful and good drive but also a SUPER cuddle-bug. That's my BYB boy that I paid $200 for! 

On the other hand, one of my good friends bought a dog for a pretty penny and it was from a very well known bloodline (West German Showline) and the thing is a nut case. Paces non-stop, is leary of everyone and everything, serious issues with being timid, doesn't trust people (men especially), etc. She's having to do A LOT of extra work with the dog just to make it able to exist normally. 

So price doesn't necessarily equal quality. Sometimes it just means you pay a lot for fancy papers.


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## Liesje

So far my GSDs from breeders have not disappointed me at all. Each one of them was absolutely what I asked for (now what I would ask for changes a bit over time, but that's not the breeder's fault). In each case I got the dog from breeders that actually train and title dogs in what I was interested in at the time (first agility and rally, then agility and conformation, and then Schutzhund). None of the dogs are/were perfect but I did get what I had articulated to the breeder and I made sure to pick breeders that had already produced examples of what I was looking for and not just ones who said their dogs were top quality. For example the first dog I got for agility I actually got as an adult partially trained in agility. Even as my first dog and first GSD we were able to start competing in agility fairly quickly. She had had a litter before I got her and two of those dogs (I think the litter was only 3 or 4 total) are MACH/CATCH agility dogs, one is a top AKC agility GSD. A few GSDs later I wanted to get more into Schutzhund so I found a breeder couple that actively trains and titles dogs and have already titled many dogs, some to a high level, and have already bred/produced dogs that have earned SchH3. For me the proof is in the pudding. The breeder can say all they want about what their dogs supposedly are but it's very easy to find out if they're producing it or not.

I also have a rescue dog (I think he was $120 from the rescue) who is my heart dog and recently got an 11 year old GSD for free of Craigslist so I'm not a breeder snob, but when I'm looking for something specific I am willing to pay the price for it.


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## Freestep

vickip9 said:


> So price doesn't necessarily equal quality. Sometimes it just means you pay a lot for fancy papers.


This is true. There is a big difference between breeders; some really know their bloodlines inside and out, do all medical testing required, work their dogs, and have a goal in mind. To me, those breeders earn every penny of their puppy price.

There are other breeders who buy a couple of titled, V-rated imports, breed them together with very little knowledge of what they are doing, and yet command premium prices for their pups. Do you get what you pay for in this instance? Not necessarily.

And there are yet other breeders who do all the right things and still ask way below what everyone else does. Does it mean they are doing something wrong? Not necessarily. It is up to the breeder to set their own prices; if they are comfortable selling pups at a lesser price and can afford to do so, I'm not going to tell them to jack up their puppy price to avoid undercutting everyone else.

The most common breeder, unfortunately, is the backyard type that does NO health testing, has no idea what they are doing, and doesn't care. They sell pups at a low price so they can get rid of them quickly while making a little extra cash--they haven't really invested anything in their breeding animals, so they have no expenses to cover. There are no guarantees--you could get a great companion or you could wind up with a hot mess, but this type of breeder will not help you. Once the money changes hands, you're on your own. At least with reputable breeders, you usually have a guarantee of some kind.

Yes, it all seems a gamble. You can pick up a dog at the shelter, pay a $40 adoption fee, and have the best and healthiest dog EVER. You can pay $3500 for a top showline pup and have no end of health and temperament problems.

If you want to stack the odds in favor of getting a pup sound in mind and body, you have to look at each individual breeder and forget about price for a moment. Once you establish what you expect in a breeder and what you want in a dog, you can talk to breeders and try to find one you are comfortable with. If you cannot pay over a certain amount, it can be tough to find a good breeder that is willing to work with you, but it has been known to happen.

People will pay $$$ for purebred pups because of certain predictabilities: looks, health, temperament. Some folks don't have grand expectations for a dog--if you just want a companion, you don't necessarily need the "pick" of the litter, but you still want some guarantee of a sound and healthy animal with proper temperament. That where a good breeder is key.

If your needs and expectations aren't extravagant, there are always GSDs in rescue and shelters that need homes, and the cost will usually be lower than buying from a breeder. The advantage to adopting a rescue dog is that, once the dog is mature, WYSIWYG. If the dog has been living with a foster, its temperament and health will be known and it takes some of the guesswork out of the picture.

I've seen healthy mixed breeds, unhealthy mixed breeds, healthy purebreds, and unhealthy purebreds. And in the world of GSDs, I want to say "you get what you pay for", but it isn't necessarily true--it's just a bit more complicated than that. I will say that, IMO, good breeders are justified in asking a higher price for their pups.


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## Liesje

Of course there are no guarantees but I do not think health is a gamble. If health is the top priority to the buyer then the buyer should be doing research and making sure to buy from healthy lines (not just a breeder that says "oh yeah mine are healthy" or has an OFA certificate for one generation). Health is easy to check because many tests are recorded in online databases or at the very least the breeder should be able to show the official results. Most times when I hear people got duped by a breeder who insisted the dogs were healthy it's easy to find other people online complaining about the same breeder/dogs/lines. I guess I tend to place the responsibility on the buyer to put their money where their priorities are.


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## Zookeep

Freestep said:


> This is true. There is a big difference between breeders; some really know their bloodlines inside and out, do all medical testing required, work their dogs, and have a goal in mind. To me, those breeders earn every penny of their puppy price.
> 
> There are other breeders who buy a couple of titled, V-rated imports, breed them together with very little knowledge of what they are doing, and yet command premium prices for their pups. Do you get what you pay for in this instance? Not necessarily.
> 
> And there are yet other breeders who do all the right things and still ask way below what everyone else does. Does it mean they are doing something wrong? Not necessarily. It is up to the breeder to set their own prices; if they are comfortable selling pups at a lesser price and can afford to do so, I'm not going to tell them to jack up their puppy price to avoid undercutting everyone else.
> 
> The most common breeder, unfortunately, is the backyard type that does NO health testing, has no idea what they are doing, and doesn't care. They sell pups at a low price so they can get rid of them quickly while making a little extra cash--they haven't really invested anything in their breeding animals, so they have no expenses to cover. There are no guarantees--you could get a great companion or you could wind up with a hot mess, but this type of breeder will not help you. Once the money changes hands, you're on your own. At least with reputable breeders, you usually have a guarantee of some kind.
> 
> Yes, it all seems a gamble. You can pick up a dog at the shelter, pay a $40 adoption fee, and have the best and healthiest dog EVER. You can pay $3500 for a top showline pup and have no end of health and temperament problems.
> 
> If you want to stack the odds in favor of getting a pup sound in mind and body, you have to look at each individual breeder and forget about price for a moment. Once you establish what you expect in a breeder and what you want in a dog, you can talk to breeders and try to find one you are comfortable with. If you cannot pay over a certain amount, it can be tough to find a good breeder that is willing to work with you, but it has been known to happen.
> 
> People will pay $$$ for purebred pups because of certain predictabilities: looks, health, temperament. Some folks don't have grand expectations for a dog--if you just want a companion, you don't necessarily need the "pick" of the litter, but you still want some guarantee of a sound and healthy animal with proper temperament. That where a good breeder is key.
> 
> If your needs and expectations aren't extravagant, there are always GSDs in rescue and shelters that need homes, and the cost will usually be lower than buying from a breeder. The advantage to adopting a rescue dog is that, once the dog is mature, WYSIWYG. If the dog has been living with a foster, its temperament and health will be known and it takes some of the guesswork out of the picture.
> 
> I've seen healthy mixed breeds, unhealthy mixed breeds, healthy purebreds, and unhealthy purebreds. And in the world of GSDs, I want to say "you get what you pay for", but it isn't necessarily true--it's just a bit more complicated than that. I will say that, IMO, good breeders are justified in asking a higher price for their pups.


Very good post Freestep. Everyone has different needs and expectations. My rescue GSD is perfect for me. All I want is a dog which greets me at the door with a wagging tail, and doesn't bite my friends and neighbors. Is she perfect? For me she is. She came dead last in her agility class, beaten by a corgi and a hyperactive shiba inu. It is an experience my daughter and I will never forget, and we laugh about it all the time. She will never get a title of any kind, and that does not bother me in the least. If I want a dog for competition, I know my best chances are with a reputable breeder. For now, my floppy-eared Lila is all I want and need.


----------



## Candace

I'm buying my pup for $2000 .00 ?
In Australia for GSDs tend to be around $1200 to $2000 from a reputable breeder. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## blackshep

My pup was $1500. She's a companion animal, but I still think good breeding is important. Also, what I liked with my dogs breeder is if any health issues come up later in life, she's guaranteed. I do not have to euthanize her or give her back to the breeder. I have to provide written proof from the vet and I can either get a new pup from her next litter or have my money refunded. 

My sister got her dog from a BYB (not a GSD) and it has the worst nerves, barks at EVERYTHING, from music, the TV etc. and last night she pooped in the house. 

Sometimes you get what you pay for. lol


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## BMWHillbilly

Bubbles said:


> Sorry, but I don't care about lineage. Bubbles is my companion. She is not for a show or breeding dog. Her only purpose is to be a dog; Go for walks, be petted, find my keys, be spoiled, and to enjoy a good life. Any and every dog deserves to have a good home no matter the price or lineage.


 
This. I couldn't agree more.


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## Mary Beth

Yes, every dog deserves to have a good home, but not every dog should be bred. For myself, I am willing to pay for stacking the odds in my favor of getting a healthy puppy from healthy (in mind and body) parents.


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## DJEtzel

When you're paying a lot for a well bred dog though, you're also NOT supporting a backyard breeder.

My ex got Frag, my first GSD, out of a paper for $250... I would never in a million years (no matter how great Frag is and how much I love him...) go and support a breeder like that. Luckily he has great hips and bone structure, but his skin issues have cost us more in the first 3 years of his life than it would have cost to buy two well-bred working line pups. 

I'd rather support someone that is doing it for the right reasons and trying their best to improve the breed, than take my chances with a crap dog from a crap breeder that may or may not have stable nerve and health. 

Even if I paid a lot for a dog and it turned out to be a basket case with HD, at least I still supported a program that is doing their best to make sure dogs like this aren't produced anymore.

So far, I've been extremely happy with my first purchase from a breeder with my Border Collie.


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## BMWHillbilly

edit to my earlier post....

My pup that I will be picking up this Sunday is not registered and i could care less. I want a GSD companion, not a show dog. I have never been involved in showing, working , etc on dogs. My dogs are pets, nothing more. I totally respect others that do show their dogs though. I understand the drive and compassion for that.

As far as health on a pup, I just hope for the best. I have 2 Labs and one is a senior with many issues but he is happy. It's a crap shoot no matter the breeding. I think all dogs deserve a good home whether they have "issues" or not. I am new to this forum and to the GSD world and I do get alarmed at how easily people get rid of or return a pup for whatever reason. IMO, once you decide to get a pup, it should be for life despite its shortcomings.


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## onyx'girl

DJEtzel said:


> When you're paying a lot for a well bred dog though, you're also NOT supporting a backyard breeder.
> 
> My ex got Frag, my first GSD, out of a paper for $250... I would never in a million years (no matter how great Frag is and how much I love him...) go and support a breeder like that. Luckily he has great hips and bone structure, but his skin issues have cost us more in the first 3 years of his life than it would have cost to buy two well-bred working line pups.
> 
> I'd rather support someone that is doing it for the right reasons and trying their best to improve the breed, than take my chances with a crap dog from a crap breeder that may or may not have stable nerve and health.
> 
> Even if I paid a lot for a dog and it turned out to be a basket case with HD, at least I still supported a program that is doing their best to make sure dogs like this aren't produced anymore.
> 
> So far, I've been extremely happy with my first purchase from a breeder with my Border Collie.


Completely agree....and in my area there are many breeders but very few who even know what they are doing or the lineage of the dogs they are putting together. 

So many people are wanting cheap dogs, it really is sad for the breed(s) because people won't support a good responsible breeder.


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## onyx'girl

BMWHillbilly said:


> edit to my earlier post....
> 
> My pup that I will be picking up this Sunday is not registered and i could care less. I want a GSD companion, not a show dog. I have never been involved in showing, working , etc on dogs. My dogs are pets, nothing more. I totally respect others that do show their dogs though. I understand the drive and compassion for that.
> 
> As far as health on a pup, I just hope for the best. I have 2 Labs and one is a senior with many issues but he is happy. It's a crap shoot no matter the breeding. I think all dogs deserve a good home whether they have "issues" or not. I am new to this forum and to the GSD world and I do get alarmed at how easily people get rid of or return a pup for whatever reason. IMO, once you decide to get a pup, it should be for life despite its shortcomings.


It has nothing to do with 'showing' or not....it is about supporting the breeder who is* doing right by the breed* and not just putting two of the same breed together to make a litter of pups. 
If people don't want to spend much, IMO it is best to go with a rescue than giving money to a breeder who is not doing health tests/working their dogs or even knowing the dogs pedigrees just to make a buck.


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## Jax08

Mary Beth said:


> Yes, every dog deserves to have a good home, but not every dog should be bred. For myself, I am willing to pay for stacking the odds in my favor of getting a healthy puppy from healthy (in mind and body) parents.


100% agree with this and with what Jane is saying. It is more likely for a poorly bred, inexpensive dog to end up in the shelter than one of good breeding for several reasons.

1) lower costs dogs are often impulse buys. 
2) Good breeders will "interview" the buyers a little bit
3) Good breeders support their puppy buyers. You don't just buy a puppy and out the door. If you need help with training issues or health issues, a good breeder will be there for advice and support.
4) Good breeders will take their dogs back to help rehome them under any circumstances.
5) While you can find a dog with great temperament and health at a BYB you are increasing your chances of bad temperament and bad health by buying from BYB. Good breeders will know what they are producing and not breed dogs that test positive or show evidence of genetic disease.

It may all be a crap shoot but I"m going to stack it in my favor.


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## Odin24

My first German Shepherd was from a breeder active in Schutzhund. German import parents (VA7 Pitt Von Tronge son). All health checks done, both parents SCH3. The dog had great temperament and lousy health. Surgery for Mesenteric Volvulus at 11 months, hip dysplasia by a year old, endless digestive issues, Bloat at 6 years, perianal fistulas at 9 years, died of degenerative myelopathy at 11.5 years. Its a crap shoot wherever you get a dog from. My new puppy is from a breeder who does all the right things and I am hoping for better health this time around but I know there are no guarantee's.


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## apenn0006

Freestep said:


> There are other breeders who buy a couple of titled, V-rated imports, breed them together with very little knowledge of what they are doing, and yet command premium prices for their pups. Do you get what you pay for in this instance? Not necessarily.


I am pretty sure after all is said and done that this correctly defines the breeder we got our boy from. There were quite a few good titles down in the line but lack of titles in the immediate line. She did give health guarantees and hip/elbow testing papers on the parents but I don't remember seeing any past the parents. We were brand new to the breeder thing, brand new to the GSD thing. I had done tons of research but my knowledge barely scratched the surface when I look back on it now. We took home the pick of the males for $1000 and even though he's still young we have not ran into any health problems yet and his temperament is impeccable. He has yet to hit puberty though...lol Only time will tell. I think our breeder may not be top of the line but I think she definitely is on the right track for getting there. I also think luck plays a MAJOR role in the dog you get...sure you can stack the odds in your favor and that is what we were trying to do...so far its looking good for us.


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## Sunflowers

You really should care more. Supporting good breeders and not buying from bad ones would get rid of a lot of the problems with this breed.


BMWHillbilly said:


> edit to my earlier post....
> 
> My pup that I will be picking up this Sunday is not registered and i could care less. I want a GSD companion, not a show dog. I have never been involved in showing, working , etc on dogs. My dogs are pets, nothing more. I totally respect others that do show their dogs though. I understand the drive and compassion for that.
> 
> As far as health on a pup, I just hope for the best. I have 2 Labs and one is a senior with many issues but he is happy. It's a crap shoot no matter the breeding. I think all dogs deserve a good home whether they have "issues" or not. I am new to this forum and to the GSD world and I do get alarmed at how easily people get rid of or return a pup for whatever reason. IMO, once you decide to get a pup, it should be for life despite its shortcomings.


----------



## msvette2u

onyx'girl said:


> It has nothing to do with 'showing' or not....it is about supporting the breeder who is* doing right by the breed* and not just putting two of the same breed together to make a litter of pups.
> If people don't want to spend much, IMO it is best to go with a rescue than giving money to a breeder who is not doing health tests/working their dogs or even knowing the dogs pedigrees just to make a buck.


:thumbup:


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## BMWHillbilly

Sunflowers said:


> You really should care more. Supporting good breeders and not buying from bad ones would get rid of a lot of the problems with this breed.


Who says that I don't care? I do care but that does nothing to help the the lil pups that are born. Not the pups fault. BYB will continue to be around no matter what yall do. I'm just sticking up for the pups that ARE born and dont "cut the mustard" in the eyes of the "experts". They are GSDs too no matter their breeding class. I know Labs and understand "good" breeding. They have their issues too and no matter how you try and selectively breed there will always be "issues". Happens to us humans too!


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## Sunflowers

You said you couldn't care less, BMWHillbilly.
And every purchase just keeps these producers going. If they couldn't sell them, they would find another way to make money.


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## msvette2u

> And every purchase just keeps these producers going.


This, exactly. 
In fact, will you be there every time a litter is produced, BMW? That's the question. By purchasing, it keeps them going.
And yes, they will relinquish to rescue/shelters if they are unable to sell the puppies. That will stop the perpetuation and help stem pet overpopulation. If folks are losing money on their litters, they will eventually quit breeding them.


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## BMWHillbilly

Sunflowers said:


> You said you couldn't care less, BMWHillbilly.
> And every purchase just keeps these producers going. If they couldn't sell them, they would find another way to make money.


What I said was "*My pup that I will be picking up this Sunday is not registered and i could care less*." That doesn't lessen the quality of dog I am getting. You _assume_ she comes from a BYB. She doesn't and if she did it is not the pups fault where it comes from. I want her as a pet and she will have a good home. 

Just because she doesn't have an AKC title, etc means I dont care about the breed? You assume wrong. My one Lab comes from championship pedigree on sire and dam side. Grand champion in the hunting category. I have no papers on him because I didnt register him. I bought him from a friend of mine that had one litter as a buddy to my older Lab ( which is a rescue). Papers don't me mean squat to me. these dogs are my pets despite their pedigree.


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## PatchonGSD

opcorn:


----------



## Bubbles

Lol if we all bought puppies from breeders. The ones accidentally born to byb or the dogs in pounds would never get a home. 

No bubbles was not an impulse buy. I was planning on buying a beagle from a breeder but I saw bubbles on craigslist . I fell in love with her picture. Not the price. The beagle was 600$ . I have money for a breeder puppy but sometimes it isn't about money or good breeding. Its about getting the right puppy for you. Bubbles happened to be the right puppy. She has never cried even on the ride home. She's perfect ! She also thinks I'm the perfect chew toy . So its a match beyond anyone's beliefs or morals of what someone should do on buying a puppy. Sometimes you will miss a great thing if you don't look with an open heart and mind .

some of the best dogs might have health problems. 3 legs, 1 eye, blind , deaf , hip dysplasia a little extra to love and care for.


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## BMWHillbilly

Bubbles said:


> Lol if we all bought puppies from breeders. The ones accidentally born to byb or the dogs in pounds would never get a home.
> 
> No bubbles was not an impulse buy. I was planning on buying a beagle from a breeder but I saw bubbles on craigslist . I fell in love with her picture. Not the price. The beagle was 600$ . I have money for a breeder puppy but sometimes it isn't about money or good breeding. Its about getting the right puppy for you. Bubbles happened to be the right puppy. She has never cried even on the ride home. She's perfect ! She also thinks I'm the perfect chew toy . So its a match beyond anyone's beliefs or morals of what someone should do on buying a puppy. Sometimes you will miss a great thing if you don't look with an open heart and mind .
> 
> some of the best dogs might have health problems. 3 legs, 1 eye, blind , deaf , hip dysplasia a little extra to love and care for.


 well said.


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## Anitsisqua

But if we all bought from responsible breeders or adopted from pounds/rescues, then the BYB would be out of business, the dogs they surrendered would get homes from adopters, and no money would go into the pockets of irresponsible breeders to finance MORE ill-bred puppies in need of homes.

If you can't afford a well-bred puppy, adopt! You help dogs in need of homes AND don't supply a financial incentive to produce puppies that shouldn't have been bred in the first place.


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## gaia_bear

Bubbles said:


> Lol if we all bought puppies from breeders. The ones accidentally born to byb or the dogs in pounds would never get a home.


More often than not it's these BYB puppies that end up in shelters/rescues because there is no process whom ever wants a puppy gets one as long as they are willing to pay. 

I have a BYB I'm not ashamed of it but I supported them and no doubt there will be another litter. I've lucked out so far health/temperment wise but she's only 8 months old.


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## BMWHillbilly

Anitsisqua said:


> But if we all bought from responsible breeders or adopted from pounds/rescues, then the BYB would be out of business, the dogs they surrendered would get homes from adopters, and no money would go into the pockets of irresponsible breeders to finance MORE ill-bred puppies in need of homes.


 
I agree but honestly, do you think that will eliminate all the irresponsible breeders? in theory it sounds good.


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## Anitsisqua

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree but honestly, do you think that will eliminate all the irresponsible breeders? in theory it sounds good.



And you think they'll stop on their own if people continue to hand them fistfuls of money?

It's better to not support them.


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## Sunflowers

Bubbles said:


> Lol if we all bought puppies from breeders. The ones accidentally born to byb or the dogs in pounds would never get a home


Exactly.
But tell me, do you think all these litters are accidental?


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## Anitsisqua

Sunflowers said:


> Exactly.
> But tell me, do you think all these litters are accidental?


Most purebred ones aren't...


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## Sunflowers

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree but honestly, do you think that will eliminate all the irresponsible breeders? in theory it sounds good.


It's not theory, it's economics.
No demand, no supply.


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## PatchonGSD

I wasnt going to stick my nose in this, but I want to make this point.



> *some of the best dogs might have health problems. 3 legs, 1 eye, blind , deaf , hip dysplasia a little extra to love and care for.*


As previously discussed in this thread, and a million others, you can get a pup with "issues" from a "reputable" breeder but these problems crop up in BYB pups_ so much more often._
Its great that those of you who see no problem with buying from a BYB say that you'll care for your dog regardless of hip or elbow dysplasia or severe allergies, or bad nerves that result in a dog that is afraid of its own shadow or is so aggressive that it cant enjoy the simple things in life, or a dog that can barely eat or keep weight because of digestive issues, not mention the 100 other diseases that pop up in poorly bred dogs. You say you arent worried because you'll be there for your dog. Thats great!

BUT, have you thought about it from the dogs point of view? What about the dogs quality of life? Just because you love him, doesnt mean that his hip dysplasia wont be painful. Just because you love him, doesnt mean that he wont scratch his skin until its raw and bleeding because of the allergies and skin problems that he suffers from. Just because you love him, doesnt mean that he wont have debilitating irrational fears because he was bred from parents with pretty markings but poor nerves. 

BYB most often produce dogs that will live lesser quality lives in one form or another. They often end up with conditions that make them miserable, or at the least, uncomfortable. Dont you think that the dogs themselves deserve better? Your love will not keep them from hurting.


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## Anitsisqua

Good point, Patchon. A good, extremely sad point.


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## gaia_bear

PatchonGSD said:


> I wasnt going to stick my nose in this, but I want to make this point.
> 
> 
> 
> As previously discussed in this thread, and a million others, you can get a pup with "issues" from a "reputable" breeder but these problems crop up in BYB pups_ so much more often._
> Its great that those of you who see no problem with buying from a BYB say that you'll care for your dog regardless of hip or elbow dysplasia or severe allergies, or bad nerves that result in a dog that is afraid of its own shadow or is so aggressive that it cant enjoy the simple things in life, or a dog that can barely eat or keep weight because of digestive issues, not mention the 100 other diseases that pop up in poorly bred dogs. You say you arent worried because you'll be there for your dog. Thats great!
> 
> BUT, have you thought about it from the dogs point of view? What about the dogs quality of life? Just because you love him, doesnt mean that his hip dysplasia wont be painful. Just because you love him, doesnt mean that he wont scratch his skin until its raw and bleeding because of the allergies and skin problems that he suffers from. Just because you love him, doesnt mean that he wont have debilitating irrational fears because he was bred from parents with pretty markings but poor nerves.
> 
> BYB most often produce dogs that will live lesser quality lives in one form or another. They often end up with conditions that make them miserable, or at the least, uncomfortable. Dont you think that the dogs themselves deserve better? Your love will not keep them from hurting.


well said.


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## Bubbles

Sunflowers said:


> Exactly.
> But tell me, do you think all these litters are accidental?


never said that I thought they were all accidental.


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## DollBaby

I've been reading thru here and decided to throw my 2 cents in lol... First of all, there is a difference between BYB's and a family who has decided to breed a litter, just as _all high dollar breeders are not 'good reputable' breeders. _
I personally have seen so called reputable breeders, who's pups are 1500 and up, line breed ridiculously and the quality of the pups were no better than that of a puppy mill. NOT_ SAYING I CONDONE PUPPY MILLS!!_ - better get that in before I'm misquoted as some others apparantly were!
Second, I have seen, and owned GSD's that I've paid less than 500 for, that were healthy, lineage was OFA certified - wonderful companions and friends. 
I'm not taking a thing away from honest reputable breeders, in fact you're needed, but I am saying that you _can_ have wonderful pups that you don't have to pay an arm and a leg for from reputable 'breeders' also. They're out there, and they're honest caring people, and people that do care about the breed.
I see this in the horse world too. Just because you pay more doesn't mean you're consistantly getting a better quality animal


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## Bubbles

doll baby your dog in the avatar is so beautiful!  

patchon... maybe my parents are byb . I have bad knees and my temper can go from freezing to boiling in a split second. But how does someone other then myself can decide for me that my life is not worth living when their is medication and surgery available. This is were love comes in I'm sure my parents love me enough to pay for medication to live my life happier. love is dedication, devotion, faithfulness, giving up everything to save them. If bubbles was in pain in dying I may consider euthanasia but there's so much medicine and surgery available to keep dogs healthy and recover.

You can never guarantee life or health unless your god or an omnipotent being. Breeders are good for people who need a dog for a purpose like police dogs. but for the average schmuck like me I don't need a fancy dog. The dogs who are from byb are more likely to be abandoned, abused or neglected  its sad . I don't support it but the puppies are innocent.


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## PatchonGSD

Bubbles said:


> doll baby your dog in the avatar is so beautiful!
> 
> *patchon... maybe my parents are byb . I have bad knees and my temper can go from freezing to boiling in a split second. But how does someone other then myself can decide for me that my life is not worth living when their is medication and surgery available. This is were love comes in I'm sure my parents love me enough to pay for medication to live my life happier. love is dedication, devotion, faithfulness, giving up everything to save them. If bubbles was in pain in dying I may consider euthanasia but there's so much medicine and surgery available to keep dogs healthy and recover.*
> 
> You can never guarantee life or health unless your god or an omnipotent being. Breeders are good for people who need a dog for a purpose like police dogs. but for the average schmuck like me I don't need a fancy dog. The dogs who are from byb are more likely to be abandoned, abused or neglected  its sad . I don't support it but the puppies are innocent.


:crazy:


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## onyx'girl

If you buy from 'it' you are supporting 'it'~~~~it's that simple.


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## msvette2u

> there's so much medicine and surgery available to keep dogs healthy and recover.


You really need to come work in rescue.
In fact anyone who thinks supporting backyard breeders is a good idea needs to work in rescue, volunteer at shelters.
I guarantee you'll be singing a different tune.

Human quality of life cannot be compared to dog quality of life. 
And I've seen so many dogs come through with an active mind and a body that's given out too soon, there's no medications that can touch their pain, dogs with such horrible allergies they have no quality of life at all, dogs with mental handicaps that are so unstable they are dangerous, the list goes on. And not everyone has a few grand to shell out on a hip or elbow surgery on their pet when things go south.

I'm all for responsible breeding. But the kind you see advertising on craigslist, that's not responsible at all and the dogs are the ones who pay the ultimate price, usually their lives, and quite often, misery until the time their lives do end.


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## Sunflowers

I wish Shoshana would post here. She made some really good points in her thread. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/193412-getting-started.html


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## DollBaby

"It" can range from BYB's thru Breeders. Just because you pay more doesn't necessarily mean better in every instance. Again I reiterate how many breeders line breed, which consistantly accentuates faults of that lineage. Big breeders cull such pups and sell at a lessor price, when they should take responsibility for what they've bred, spay/neuter those cull pups and give them to a good forever home. In these instances they are (they being the big 'reputable' breeders) putting those 'lessor' quality dogs out there and are no better than those they condemn.
There are good reputable breeders, but many that claim to be, or reffered as such are not, just as all breeders are not BYB. Now - those true BYB's out there shouldn't be, and I agree buyer beware on BOTH ends of the spectrum!
Bubbles thanks!! That's my dollbaby!


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## Bubbles

onyx'girl said:


> If you buy from 'it' you are supporting 'it'~~~~it's that simple.


Then go to your breeder. Buy your 2000$ dog . While these puppies sit in shelters or get euthanized.


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## onyx'girl

I'd rather go to a shelter than give $ to a breeder who isn't doing right by what they are breeding...that is my point. I have helped shelter dogs get out before they are euth'd. I also support a responsible breeder. It isn't about the $ to me but about the dogs. Spending my $ to pull/foster or transport a dog is a given...I won't give it to a person who is greedily doing the wrong thing, the animal is what ultimately suffers.


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## PatchonGSD

Well I see my post went right over a couple heads :rolleyes2:


----------



## Sunflowers

Bubbles said:


> Then go to your breeder. Buy your 2000$ dog . While these puppies sit in shelters or get euthanized.


Do you understand that the puppies in shelters were also bred by someone?


----------



## msvette2u

Nobody has said don't get a dog from a rescue or shelter.
It's not "just" about responsible breeders, but if you can't afford a well-bred dog from a responsible breeder, then rescue/adopt, it is that simple.


----------



## BMWHillbilly

Sunflowers said:


> Do you understand that the puppies in shelters were also bred by someone?


Exactly. So if a few of these castoffs can get a good home then what's the issue? Again, it's not the pups fault. Irresponsible breeders are going to happen no matter what you do. No one likes it but giving a good home to a BYB pup that was born anyway is right thing to do in my book.


----------



## Bubbles

Sunflowers said:


> Do you understand that the puppies in shelters were also bred by someone?


wow I love being treated like I'm an idiot BC I have a different opinion. 

Maybe you should stop supporting breeders they support over population of puppies by giving their puppies to byb to make more puppies. Better stop the irresponsibility from the source of these dogs. The "professional" breeders.


----------



## DJEtzel

Bubbles said:


> wow I love being treated like I'm an idiot BC I have a different opinion.
> 
> Maybe you should stop supporting breeders they support over population of puppies by giving their puppies to byb to make more puppies. Better stop the irresponsibility from the source of these dogs. The "professional" breeders.


What? No reputable breeder ever sells to someone that they know is a byb. Crappy breeders get their crappy dogs as strays, mutts, or a long line of crap lineage in their family of breeding and just keep continuing to do so, producing as many puppies as they can with no qualms as to what happens to them, where they end up, or how healthy and sound they are. 

Reputable breeders have contracts and only let their dogs be bred if they meet certain expectations. In my contract, my puppy will eventually have to be neutered because I am not a breeder and he is not suitable for their breeding program.


----------



## Sieger

PatchonGSD said:


> Well I see my post went right over a couple heads :rolleyes2:


I believe she's a child. If not... :headbang:


----------



## Anitsisqua

NO ONE HERE HAS A PROBLEM WITH ADOPTING/RESCUING FROM A RESCUE OR SHELTER!

Now, that being said, buying from a BYB is NOT rescuing, no matter how noble your intentions. You are buying a pup from them and supporting their business with your custom.

If no one buys the pups, they'll end up at the shelter where you can adopt them in the certainty that your hard-earned cash is being used to support the shelter/rescue instead of that BYB.

Simplified Version:

Adopting=Great!
Rescuing=Great!
Buying from a responsible breeder=Great!
Buying from an irresponsible breeder=Not Great!



Sieger said:


> I believe she's a child. If not... :headbang:


:rofl:


----------



## Odin24

DJEtzel said:


> What? No reputable breeder ever sells to someone that they know is a byb. Crappy breeders get their crappy dogs as strays, mutts, or a long line of crap lineage in their family of breeding and just keep continuing to do so, producing as many puppies as they can with no qualms as to what happens to them, where they end up, or how healthy and sound they are.
> 
> Reputable breeders have contracts and only let their dogs be bred if they meet certain expectations. In my contract, my puppy will eventually have to be neutered because I am not a breeder and he is not suitable for their breeding program.


 
OK. Now I have a question for all the 'reputable' breeders posting here. Do you have a breeding restriction in your contracts that prevent the person who buys your puppy from breeding it and registering the puppies. I have yet to see or have that clause in any contract from a breeder I have dealt with. In fact, I have been advised not to neuter the dogs I have bought for big money from reputable breeders. No breeding restrictions and full breeding rights given.


----------



## Bubbles

Sieger said:


> I believe she's a child. If not... :headbang:


wow, insults... amazing . not worth my time or acknowledgment

djetzel You think everyone that comes to a breeder for a puppy is honest? If breeders were responsible they'd add stipulations that the puppy has to be fixed. At the park someone came up to me . They said they bought $2500 shepherd from a breeder . They had to do a process to have a puppy picked about for them. They said theirs was to crazy and couldn't handle their dog so they gave it to the pound. Its interesting why would a reputable breeder give a puppy to someone who couldn't handle it. how responsible is that. When it comes down to it puppies are a business. If a byb has better dogs why not support them. If there's no abuse and its a one time thing for the experience I see nothing wrong with it. To say breeders are better then byb I have to say they aren't . They both make mistakes. Puppy mills on the other hand I do not support and would never buy a dog from them. I'd just call the po-pos on them.


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## wolfstraum

Odin24 said:


> OK. Now I have a question for all the 'reputable' breeders posting here. Do you have a breeding restriction in your contracts that prevent the person who buys your puppy from breeding it and registering the puppies. I have yet to see or have that clause in any contract from a breeder I have dealt with. In fact, I have been advised not to neuter the dogs I have bought for big money from reputable breeders. No breeding restrictions and full breeding rights given.


All the breeders I personally know sell on limited registration and have a no breeding clause in their contracts. I do - and I will only release papers to someone who completes various steps in certifying the dog. Nor do most reputable breeders charge different prices for full vs. limited registration...those who do show that their priority is cash flow and profit - NOT the maintenance and improvement of the breed.

Lee


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## DJEtzel

Odin24 said:


> OK. Now I have a question for all the 'reputable' breeders posting here. Do you have a breeding restriction in your contracts that prevent the person who buys your puppy from breeding it and registering the puppies. I have yet to see or have that clause in any contract from a breeder I have dealt with. In fact, I have been advised not to neuter the dogs I have bought for big money from reputable breeders. No breeding restrictions and full breeding rights given.


My breeder (and most I know) say in the contract that the dog isn't to be used for breeding, and sell the puppies on a limited registration, so that any offspring cannot be registered.



Bubbles said:


> wow, insults... amazing . not worth my time or acknowledgment
> 
> djetzel You think everyone that comes to a breeder for a puppy is honest? If breeders were responsible they'd add stipulations that the puppy has to be fixed. At the park someone came up to me . They said they bought $2500 shepherd from a breeder . They had to do a process to have a puppy picked about for them. They said theirs was to crazy and couldn't handle their dog so they gave it to the pound. Its interesting why would a reputable breeder give a puppy to someone who couldn't handle it. how responsible is that. When it comes down to it puppies are a business. If a byb has better dogs why not support them. If there's no abuse and its a one time thing for the experience I see nothing wrong with it. To say breeders are better then byb I have to say they aren't . They both make mistakes. Puppy mills on the other hand I do not support and would never buy a dog from them. I'd just call the po-pos on them.


Most people that are willing to spend that kind of money on a dog, are doing it for good reasons, yes. Most, not all. Many breeders DO add stipulations that the puppy has to be fixed. (my contract has a time frame for my pup to be neutered) Unfortunately, people lie to breeders, and breeders cannot always guarantee that a dog is going to stay in it's home and thrive. That's why they tattoo and microchip the puppies and have clauses in their contracts to make it ILLEGAL to do what that family did and drop a dog off at the pound. My breeder requires I return my dog to her for rehoming if I ever want to get rid of him FOR ANY REASON. To AVOID her dogs ending up in the wrong hands or contributing to the shelters. 

You're apparently missing the point that breeding is NOT a business, it's a hobby. When done RIGHT, ethical breeders do NOT make money off of it whatsoever. The fact is that BYB by "definition" (I use that loosely because they vary) and not EVER better dogs/breeding programs than that of a reputable breeder. Reputable breeders make sure they are not breeding dogs with genetic health issues or nerve issues/temperament issues. BYB do not care about the health OR where the pups go, they are just looking to make a quick buck and I will NEVER support someone with that kind of mindset.

Both BYB and Reputable breeders make mistakes? What kinds? Do you realize that there is usually nothing different from a puppy mill and byb other than size? They're both breeding unhealthy or less-than-stellar dogs, the only difference is quantity.



wolfstraum said:


> All the breeders I personally know sell on limited registration and have a no breeding clause in their contracts. I do - and I will only release papers to someone who completes various steps in certifying the dog. Nor do most reputable breeders charge different prices for full vs. limited registration...those who do show that their priority is cash flow and profit - NOT the maintenance and improvement of the breed.
> 
> Lee


This.


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## BMWHillbilly

Bubbles said:


> .....When it comes down to it puppies are a business. If a byb has better dogs why not support them. If there's no abuse and its a one time thing for the experience I see nothing wrong with it. To say breeders are better then byb I have to say they aren't . They both make mistakes.


I agree Bubbles. I don't have 2500.00 to spend on a dog. I don't have penis envy and the need to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from. I also have certain restrictions on bringing a new "pet" in my home. I need a puppy as I have cats and 3 adult dogs already. No shelter has a GSD pup available, get real. I don't breed, show, etc. I want a GSD as a pet and companion. I know the person i'm getting my pup from. They are happy ,healthy pups and as a bonus happen to be OFA certified which honestly I didn't know at the time I aksed for a pup. Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


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## DJEtzel

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree Bubbles. I don't have 2500.00 to spend on a dog. I don't have penis envy and the need to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from. I also have certain restrictions on bringing a new "pet" in my home. I need a puppy as I have cats and 3 adult dogs already. No shelter has a GSD pup available, get real. I don't breed, show, etc. I want a GSD as a pet and companion. I know the person i'm getting my pup from. They are happy ,healthy pups and as a bonus happen to be OFA certified which honestly I didn't know at the time I aksed for a pup. Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


Actually, the GSD rescue near me has a whole litter of pup available right now! It is not hard to go into a rescue and find an adult shepherd that gets along with other dogs and cats; again, there are numerous dogs like this here in my town.

It is so much easier and CHEAPER to go into a shelter and adopt a puppy that got dumped there by the breeder you're talking about than supporting them to continue breeding unhealthy dogs with no purpose or goal.


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## Jag

I will agree some of it is luck. My first GSD was from a 'hobby breeder' and probably had some hip issues, but died before I got to find out. My second was a BYB dog from a 'hobby breeder' and he was great. My third I went to a 'real' breeder with titled, imported dogs and ended up with a HUGE aggression problem from a poor temperament. I didn't realize at the time that titles weren't everything. Then I was really done with the breed. My wife, however, knew that I missed my GSDs. So I went to another breeder, armed with more info. I had a VERY long interview with the breeder. I have full breeding rights, but I will NEVER breed my boy. My breeder was very involved with my guy. She still is. If I need something now or eight years from now, she'll be there. The guarantee on my boy is the best I've ever seen. The difference between him and my other GSDs... I can't even explain. Night and day. If you haven't spent a lot of time in this 'world' then you don't really know what the difference is between a BYB dog and a well bred dog. You can't appreciate the difference. I used to be there. I love this breed. It is one of the few things on this earth that make me happy. I am actually ashamed that in my ignorance, I contributed to a BYB 'business'. I also gave a lot of money to a cruddy breeder. 
My breeder was so involved with my boy that she was telling me exactly what he was like, how he ate, how he took food from your hand, etc. Every single thing she said about his personality was 100% dead on. He was exactly what I asked for. No other "breeder" I went to told me anything about the pup I was getting. I know, it's my fault. I can only plead ignorance. 

When I got my boy home, I called my breeder to let her know he was home safe. I swear, LOL, she's so into him! I got a list of do's and don'ts... most of which we already covered. She wanted to know how he did and how he was doing. I don't think I could've gotten a longer list of tips and instructions if I'd adopted a child!  I LOVE this about my breeder! Yes, there is always a risk no matter how much money you pay. The difference is the guarantee for one, and for two the risk is lower than a BYB who takes your money and is gone. Also, go check out the 'aggression' section. A good number of those dogs were badly bred. I lived with this for 7 years. It's NOT fun!!! She could've killed someone, and her life suffered because of her poor temperament. She was never, ever right and the breeder just shrugged his shoulders. 

When you get more involved with the breed, and if you're around truly well bred shepherds, then you'll see why your logic is faulty. Right now, though, I understand those of you saying "I just want a cheap pet". However, that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean you're not doing harm to the breed as a whole. I hope you find (as I did) that it matters where you get your dog. It really, really does!


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## onyx'girl

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree Bubbles. I don't have 2500.00 to spend on a dog. I don't have penis envy and the need *to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from*. I also have certain restrictions on bringing a new "pet" in my home. I need a puppy as I have cats and 3 adult dogs already. No shelter has a GSD pup available, get real. I don't breed, show, etc. I want a GSD as a pet and companion. I know the person i'm getting my pup from. They are happy ,healthy pups and as a bonus happen to be OFA certified which honestly I didn't know at the time I aksed for a pup. Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


It isn't about boasting, but lineage is very important. If you have no clue the lines you are putting together, you are setting the puppies up for a risk, healthwise and temperament! 
Good working lines are far less $ than the price you are quoting. Not sure why you are so caught up on the $...as others have posted over and over and over, the initial cost is minimal compared to what possible vetting or behavioral training you may have to invest in because you bought a pup from someone who has no clue(or doesn't care) about what they are doing. 

But all these posts won't change your mind, your breeder does sound like they know what they are doing, and I know a few local to me that sell pups for under a $1000, but personally I am not interested in the lines they are putting together.


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## Jag

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree Bubbles. I don't have 2500.00 to spend on a dog. I don't have penis envy and the need to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from. I also have certain restrictions on bringing a new "pet" in my home. I need a puppy as I have cats and 3 adult dogs already. No shelter has a GSD pup available, get real. I don't breed, show, etc. I want a GSD as a pet and companion. I know the person i'm getting my pup from. They are happy ,healthy pups and as a bonus happen to be OFA certified which honestly I didn't know at the time I aksed for a pup. Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


OK, what are you going to do if your dog has health issues and needs a surgery that is $4000?? People don't go to 'good breeders' because we want to 'show off' or because we want to spend a lot of money on a dog to brag about it. It's about the breed. A GSD *can* be a pet, but they're also working dogs. If you aren't doing anything with your dog, then either it's not up to breed standards or you're not giving the dog the chance to do things it needs to do. These aren't house plants. They are extremely smart, athletic dogs who need something to do. I do understand what you mean about money. The truth is, you're going to spend it up front or later. Hopefully not both, but it happens no matter what. You've got MUCH more chance of something going wrong with a BYB dog. Also, GSD's aren't normally 'trouble makers' but all of the poor breeding has caused this breed to be looked down on as aggressive for no reason and unstable. It's got to stop. The only way for that to happen is if people stop supporting bad breeders.


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## Freestep

Odin24 said:


> OK. Now I have a question for all the 'reputable' breeders posting here. Do you have a breeding restriction in your contracts that prevent the person who buys your puppy from breeding it and registering the puppies.


Yes, most reputable breeders do sell their "pet" puppies on "Limited Registration" which means no breeding. They may or may not require spay/neuter in the contract, but the breeding restriction is clear. 



Bubbles said:


> Its interesting why would a reputable breeder give a puppy to someone who couldn't handle it. how responsible is that.


Good breeders make an effort to match the right puppy to the right owner. It doesn't always work out, in which case a good breeder will take the pup back. Just because someone spent big bucks on a pup doesn't necessarily mean the breeder is a good breeder. 



> If a byb has better dogs why not support them. If there's no abuse and its a one time thing for the experience I see nothing wrong with it. To say breeders are better then byb I have to say they aren't.


When would a byb have "better" dogs? They don't do health testing, don't work or title their dogs, don't know anything about genetics, and don't care about anything other than making a few bucks. They just collect a couple of dogs that look like GSDs and throw them together. That is the definition of a byb. I fail to see how that is "better" in any way.

And I'm just curious, how old are you and how long have you been around GSDs?


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## Freestep

BMWHillbilly said:


> I I don't have penis envy and the need to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from.


It's not about "boasting"; the people who boast about their dog's pedigree are usually the ones who are new to the game and know very little. Lineage is important because in a large, powerful, high-drive, potentially aggressive breed, you need a sound mind and a sound body. GSDs are plagued with temperament and health problems because of the people who DON'T care about lineage. It's vitally important that a breeder understands how different bloodlines blend (or don't blend) together, and to make sure that everything is in proper balance. Otherwise you get nerve and temperament problems, joint problems, etc. All this stuff is genetic, and it takes a bit of knowledge and experience to understand the genetics of the GSD, which dog carries what, etc. in order to make informed decisions on which dogs to breed together. The goal is to consistently produce healthy dogs of good temperament, what a GSD is supposed to be.



> Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


No one is saying their dog is "better" or that pups from a BYB have less intrinsic value. ALL dogs deserve to be loved and cared for, no matter where they came from. It's about who you support. Supporting a byb who does not know or care about anything other than making a few bucks is rewarding the wrong people.


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## empem90

When would a byb have "better" dogs? They don't do health testing, don't work or title their dogs, don't know anything about genetics, and don't care about anything other than making a few bucks. They just collect a couple of dogs that look like GSDs and throw them together. That is the definition of a byb. I fail to see how that is "better" in any way.

And I'm just curious, how old are you and how long have you been around GSDs?[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt say that all dogs that come from what many people on this forum consider BYB dogs as any lesser than dogs from the called "reputable Breeders". From what I have seen described on this forum I know of a couple breeders that would be classified as "BYB" here because the dogs arent titled. They are health checked, their lineage and genetics have been checked and they are really great dogs as far as conforming to the standards. They are also much cheaper because they are what I would consider a true "hobby Breeder". They make little if any money when they sell the pups, they range from like $600-$800. The cost only comes from the added food and all of the health checks and vet visits for the Dam(as well as the sire) and all the pupps after they are born. They also dont come with as strict of a contract as would come from some of the "reputable breeders". But the difference is with both the breeders I am thinking of they have stayed in contact with every single pup (now with the older dogs contacting maybe once or twice a year)and family and aided them whenever possible. Several of their dogs have gone on to be working dogs in the police force, search and rescue, agility, and done great. Just because their dogs arent titled doesnt mean they or their pups couldnt be. One of them had sold a pup to a family, and at around 7 months for one reason or another the pup died of bloat. He gave the family a full refund and a pup from his next litter. I dont know many breeders that would want to do something like that To me this shows that they care about the dogs and are not in it for the money. Its sad but their are breeders out their that dont charge and arm and a leg for a dog but have great dogs to offer. They are the truly difficult breeders to find.


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## msvette2u

*Simplified Version:

Adopting=Great!
Rescuing=Great!
Buying from a responsible breeder=Great!
Buying from an irresponsible breeder=Not Great!*

THIS exactly. 
It's not about envy, boasting or whatever.

I think the bottom line is, when you KNOW better, you DO better. 
When you refuse to acknowledge what is better, you can keep doing things your own way.


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## Jag

BTW... my hat is off and my undying admiration is very strong for those that do rescues and fosters! :thumbup:


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## Anitsisqua

I am probably about to say the most controversial thing I've ever said on this board, so...here it goes:

If you *know* a breeder is irresponsible and breeding when they should not be, and you still buy a pup from them instead of from a responsible breeder or adopting from a shelter or rescue...*you are just plain cheap*;
skimping on the health checks of a potential beloved pet to save a few bucks. It certainly isn't out of charity, or you'd be out supporting a shelter or rescue.


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## Bubbles

Freestep said:


> Yes, most reputable breeders do sell their "pet" puppies on "Limited Registration" which means no breeding. They may or may not require spay/neuter in the contract, but the breeding restriction is clear.
> 
> 
> 
> Good breeders make an effort to match the right puppy to the right owner. It doesn't always work out, in which case a good breeder will take the pup back. Just because someone spent big bucks on a pup doesn't necessarily mean the breeder is a good breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> When would a byb have "better" dogs? They don't do health testing, don't work or title their dogs, don't know anything about genetics, and don't care about anything other than making a few bucks. They just collect a couple of dogs that look like GSDs and throw them together. That is the definition of a byb. I fail to see how that is "better" in any way.
> 
> And I'm just curious, how old are you and how long have you been around GSDs?


not all dogs are healthy. Breeders, byb, shelters or otherwise. unless you happen to be god no one can guarantee a healthy puppy. 

I do not give out personal information. This is my first dog. The vet cleared her and now is in training with pet smart.


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## DJEtzel

Bubbles said:


> not all dogs are healthy. Breeders, byb, shelters or otherwise. unless you happen to be god no one can guarantee a healthy puppy.
> 
> I do not give out personal information. This is my first dog. The vet cleared her and now is in training with pet smart.


Actually, most breeders, including mine, DO guarantee health that they're striving to perfect. At two years of age, after OFA X-rays, many will refund or give you a new dog if yours has a gentile issue like HD. what byb does that?


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## Bubbles

Anitsisqua said:


> I am probably about to say the most controversial thing I've ever said on this board, so...here it goes:
> 
> If you *know* a breeder is irresponsible and breeding when they should not be, and you still buy a pup from them instead of from a responsible breeder or adopting from a shelter or rescue...*you are just plain cheap*;
> skimping on the health checks of a potential beloved pet to save a few bucks. It certainly isn't out of charity, or you'd be out supporting a shelter or rescue.


skimping on health checks ? who is doing that?


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## Liesje

I don't really care where people get puppies and how much they cost. My heart dog happens to be a rescue dog that is a mix of mixes and he was a $120 donation to the rescue. He's healthy too. 

What bothers me is when people come on here and say that healthy puppies are a "crapshoot" or a "gamble" because they paid a high price for a dog that ended up with problems but then in the same post make it clear to me that they never did any actual research about the health of their puppy's lines and never double checked any of the health information. Sorry but taking a breeder's word for it that the dog is healthy is not what I consider due diligence if purchasing a healthy puppy is your top priority. It is easy to double check healthy. Lots of things are available online or you can ask the breeder to show the certificates or provide copies. Even though the PDB is not official most people have their dogs' health info added to the online pedigree. The ZW database is also online.

Getting a healthy puppy is *not* a gamble or a crapshoot. If you actually research the lines and purchase with health as a top priority the chances are very high that you will get a very healthy puppy.


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## DJEtzel

Anitsisqua said:


> I am probably about to say the most controversial thing I've ever said on this board, so...here it goes:
> 
> If you *know* a breeder is irresponsible and breeding when they should not be, and you still buy a pup from them instead of from a responsible breeder or adopting from a shelter or rescue...*you are just plain cheap*;
> skimping on the health checks of a potential beloved pet to save a few bucks. It certainly isn't out of charity, or you'd be out supporting a shelter or rescue.


I couldn't agree more.


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## DJEtzel

Bubbles said:


> skimping on health checks ? who is doing that?


Backyard breeders.


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## PatchonGSD

You guys with "penis envy" and show dogs do realize that your wasting your time, right? You could be responding to people who have legitimate problems and who are willing to use common sense and listen to what you have to say. 

I'm sure you'll get the chance to talk to these same few in a few more months when they are posting questions in the health and behavior sections trying to figure out what is wrong with their BYB pups.


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## Anitsisqua

DJEtzel said:


> Backyard breeders.



Yep.


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## qbchottu

Liesje said:


> What bothers me is when people come on here and say that healthy puppies are a "crapshoot" or a "gamble" because they paid a high price for a dog that ended up with problems but then in the same post make it clear to me that they never did any actual research about the health of their puppy's lines and never double checked any of the health information. Sorry but taking a breeder's word for it that the dog is healthy is not what I consider due diligence if purchasing a healthy puppy is your top priority.
> 
> Getting a healthy puppy is *not* a gamble or a crapshoot. If you actually research the lines and purchase with health as a top priority the chances are very high that you will get a very healthy puppy.


Yup. Agree.

To the ones arguing with the naysayers, experience and time will teach them more than our words will. Unfortunately, some people don't learn until they go through it themselves. We speak from experience and hope to dissuade others from making the same mistakes we did. But the most infuriating thing about human beings is that you will need to stand back and let them make their own mistakes so they may learn as well.


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## Anitsisqua

qbchottu said:


> Yup. Agree.
> 
> To the ones arguing with the naysayers, experience and time will teach them more than our words will. Unfortunately, some people don't learn until they go through it themselves. We speak from experience and hope to dissuade others from making the same mistakes we did. But the most infuriating thing about human beings is that you will need to stand back and let them make their own mistakes so they may learn as well.


I know that intellectually, but my emotional side is spazzing out. It hurts going through severe preventable health problems with your beloved dog... I want to spare EVERYONE the heartache of what I went through and put the BYB out of business.


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## Bubbles

DJEtzel said:


> Actually, most breeders, including mine, DO guarantee health that they're striving to perfect. At two years of age, after OFA X-rays, many will refund or give you a new dog if yours has a gentile issue like HD. what byb does that?


I think people who buy from byb know they have to take them to the vet themselves. The family who sold me bubbles said I could bring her back if she has any problems. They even called to check in on her. They love their puppies too. 

I'm not saying all byb are good and I definetly would not say all breeders are good either. There's always going to be bad fruit. If bubbles looked like she was being abused, neglected, or sick I would have called the po-po.


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## qbchottu

Anitsisqua said:


> I know that intellectually, but my emotional side is spazzing out. It hurts going through severe preventable health problems with your beloved dog... I want to spare EVERYONE the heartache of what I went through and put the BYB out of business.


I hear ya. I could tell you stories after stories of heartache. The pain of watching my best friend die. The horror and helplessness I felt. The incredible sense of emptiness, like someone scooped out my insides with a melon baller. The pain was so real that it felt like I couldn't bear it at the time. I won't allow myself to think about it in public because I start choking up and tearing. 

How I wish I could spare someone else that pain and grief. But I know that it won't do any good. You guys made a very valiant effort and make EXCELLENT points. I will use some of the information found here when I write some articles for my website. I hope to reach out to those that posted and gather personal stories so I can help educate others. 

But sadly, nothing we do is going to change the two chiming in here. Just wait it out. Hate to say it in such a foreboding manner, but they will see the light as well. Just a matter of a time.


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## qbchottu

Bubbles said:


> I think people who buy from byb know they have to take them to the vet themselves.


I think these people need a very rudimentary lesson on basic genetics. "If it looks healthy now and checks out, I hit the jackpot!" <---LOL


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## Bubbles

qbchottu said:


> I think these people need a very rudimentary lesson on basic genetics. "If it looks healthy now and checks out, I hit the jackpot!" <---LOL


Do you think I'm not capable of taking a dog to check ups ? I love these people thinking I'm an idiot over common sense care of a dog. Or maybe your not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol... 

I understand you like your breeders and think they are better then byb. I don't they are all dogs that need good homes.


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## Jag

Bubbles said:


> skimping on health checks ? who is doing that?


The BYBs are! They don't do screening for diseases before breeding.


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## Anitsisqua

Bubbles said:


> Do you think I'm not capable of taking a dog to check ups ? I love these people thinking I'm an idiot over common sense care of a dog. Or maybe your not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol...
> 
> I understand you like your breeders and think they are better then byb. I don't they are all dogs that need good homes.


Checking the parents! To make sure they are fit to be bred! Start acting like you have some of that common sense.

And with that, I can't take any more of this thread. I HOPE your dog is healthy and doesn't inherit anything unsavory from her parents.


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## qbchottu

Bubbles said:


> Do you think I'm not capable of taking a dog to check ups ? I love these people thinking I'm an idiot over common sense care of a dog. Or maybe your not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol...


Here's the flaw in your logic Bubbles....what will health checkups after the fact do anything to change your dog's inborn genetics? Will your health checkups prevent DM, HD, ED for example? No. It will only notify you that you are about to go deep into your pocketbook.


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## DJEtzel

Bubbles said:


> Do you think I'm not capable of taking a dog to check ups ? I love these people thinking I'm an idiot over common sense care of a dog. Or maybe your not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol...
> 
> I understand you like your breeders and think they are better then byb. I don't they are all dogs that need good homes.


You're missing our point entirely. Health checks for breeding dogs have nothing to do with going to the vet and him telling you the puppy looks fine. You cannot see underlying issues that are genetic in the dog by taking it to the vet. Reputable breeders take xrays of the dogs hips and elbows to make sure they don't have Hip Dysplasia before breeding, along with eye, heart, and other genetic tests to make SURE they are producing the most healthy dogs they can. AND THEN!... if your dogs DOES end up with one of these issues after 2 years down the road... they'll refund and/or provide another puppy.

No backyard breeder tests for these things or cares, and none of them would refund your money when your dog has a terrible case of HD at 9mo old, either. NO backyard breeder should be supported when you know they're doing nothing for the breed. Those puppies will end up in shelters if no one buys them and can all be loved from there!


----------



## DJEtzel

Anitsisqua said:


> Checking the parents! To make sure they are fit to be bred! Start acting like you have some of that common sense.


Might want to tone this down just a bit... wouldn't want to see mods get involved. I know it's frustrating... but totally not worth a ban or warning.


----------



## DJEtzel

Bubbles said:


> I think people who buy from byb know they have to take them to the vet themselves. The family who sold me bubbles said I could bring her back if she has any problems. They even called to check in on her. They love their puppies too.
> 
> I'm not saying all byb are good and I definetly would not say all breeders are good either. There's always going to be bad fruit. If bubbles looked like she was being abused, neglected, or sick I would have called the po-po.


What problems? How long after the fact? Are they going to take her and give you your money back when you can finally get her xrayed at 2 years old and she has Hip Dysplasia? Are they going to refund your money? Was there a contract stating this all?

Unfortunately, you cannot look at a puppy and tell just how many health problems there are going to be as a result of crappy breeding on the BYBs part. Bubbles has no known genetic testing, lineage of any kind... she could very easily end up with extreme HD, EPI, DM, etc. because her breeders were too cheap to test for health issues that don't crop up in 8 week old puppies.


----------



## DJEtzel

Anitsisqua said:


> I know that intellectually, but my emotional side is spazzing out. It hurts going through severe preventable health problems with your beloved dog... I want to spare EVERYONE the heartache of what I went through and put the BYB out of business.


Agree. qcb... we all know they're going to keep believing it.. it's just so hard not to defend your side when we HAVE experienced it. 

I could never imagine getting another dog from a BYB and getting even LESS likely next time.


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## qbchottu

Bubbles said:


> Or maybe *your *not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol...


Nah. I'm not that bright. 

I only make sure to delve completely into my future pup's history in terms of genetics, ability, temperament, nerves, stability, workability, drives, conformation, structure and so on. I meet the breeding dogs. I establish a very honest relationship with the breeder. I go to shows and trials. I compete with my dogs and make a educated decision BEFORE THE FACT as to what I need and want in a dog. I make sure to look into littermates, their health, their temperaments and their accomplishments. What has the breeder done in the GSD world? How are they contributing to the next generation? How are they preserving the integrity my heart breed? I look through the pedigrees for generations. I look at linebreedings, outcrossings and matchups. I make sure I have a contract. I make sure I can trust my breeder. I make sure I have EVERYTHING that is in my control in line before I jump the gun.

But hey, *you're* the smart one so what I do know


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## Liesje

Going to a vet is not what I mean by thoroughly researching the health of the lines. A vet cannot give a dog a once-over a diagnose/rule out HD, ED, DM, spondylosis, etc. but you can do tests for these or see them on x-ray so it's easy enough to ask a breeder for the test results or ask to see the x-rays.

I actually do not take my dogs to the vet for random check-ups because they are healthy. They don't go to the vet unless there's a need or every 3 years for a rabies vaccine (required by law and only available through a DVM).


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## Jag

I will always say it's a crapshoot... no matter where you get your dog from. HOWEVER, it's much less likely if you go to a reputable breeder. Plus, you have a guarantee from a reputable breeder. My female is a good example. Her poor brain wasn't 'wired right', but she was from imported German dogs. 

For most people, even given the pedigree for the dog, won't know if the pairing is right. So even if both dogs are titled, etc. they can still produce bad offspring. That chance is small, though... especially if the breeder knows the lines well and takes care when pairing. This is why I would never breed. It's more than one GSD impregnating another one. MUCH more. BYB's make me irate because they don't care what they're doing. They don't care about the welfare of the pups. They simply have a couple of dogs and use them to make money.


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## Liesje

There's always a small chance of a problem but IMO that chance gets a lot smaller if people put their money where their mouth is. I'm not talking about just looking at the parents and seeing they are healthy with health certs and calling it good. Look at the last 3-4 generations and also look at the current hip/elbow/etc production of the parents and their siblings. You can't just look at the pairing for health, that would be a crapshoot, but look at the bigger picture.

To me a crapshoot seems to imply that your chance is relatively 50/50 whether you do research or not and I don't agree. I think that with no research/priority for health your chance is about 50/50 but the closer your look the bigger that gap becomes.


----------



## qbchottu

Liesje said:


> I actually do not take my dogs to the vet for random check-ups because they are healthy. They don't go to the vet unless there's a need or every 3 years for a rabies vaccine (required by law and only available through a DVM).


Likewise. Wiva has been to the vet three times in her life. Twice for rabies (no checkup, just shot and leave) and once for hips/elbows (both excellent!). 

Her mother and grandmother never saw a vet (even whelping) for anything more than rabies or hips. Mother will turn 9 soon (whelped 5 litters). Grandmother is going on 12 or 13 (whelped 4 litters). I know both the ladies that own these females. I know the sire's owner and see him on a regular basis. He is going strong. I know the grandsire on father's side. He is still breeding at 8 or 9. Pretty neat. I like those odds for my girl 

So I wouldn't necessarily cite frequent vet visits as a sufficient marker for health. In fact, it probably has the completely opposite correlation.


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## BMWHillbilly

Anitsisqua said:


> If you *know* a breeder is irresponsible and breeding when they should not be, and you still buy a pup from *them instead of from a responsible breeder or adopting from a shelter or rescue...you are just plain cheap*;
> skimping on the health checks of a potential beloved pet to save a few bucks. It certainly isn't out of charity, or you'd be out supporting a shelter or rescue.


You sound a bit contradicting in your statement. Getting a pup from a shelter or rescue is _skimping on health checks?_ therefore ..._just plain cheap_? A shelter or rescue cannot guarantee a healthy dog. You don't know what the genetics or health is. I have a rescue dog (lab mix) with a myriad of health problems. I gave him a loving home as a pup and accepted whatever came my way as far as his health. He is 11 years old now and is happy and has had a good life. I wouldn't call that "cheap". I call it giving a dog a chance at life and a warm loving home for their lifetime despite their shortcomings.


----------



## Jag

Liesje said:


> There's always a small chance of a problem but IMO that chance gets a lot smaller if people put their money where their mouth is. I'm not talking about just looking at the parents and seeing they are healthy with health certs and calling it good. Look at the last 3-4 generations and also look at the current hip/elbow/etc production of the parents and their siblings. You can't just look at the pairing for health, that would be a crapshoot, but look at the bigger picture.
> 
> To me a crapshoot seems to imply that your chance is relatively 50/50 whether you do research or not and I don't agree. I think that with no research/priority for health your chance is about 50/50 but the closer your look the bigger that gap becomes.


I agree with this. However, you *can* still have a problem. It's just more likely that you won't. Again, most people don't know what to look for in a pedigree or with a pairing. I was told by my bitch's breeder that they'd had other litters from the same parents without the 'head case' problem. Whether that's true or not I don't know. I *thought* he was a reputable breeder, but I was wrong. Or, it was just bad luck. I didn't know enough then. I still would have to ask (and did) those that do know. Maybe 'crapshoot' is the wrong word. My point was that even the best breeders can throw a pup with health or temperament issues.


----------



## DJEtzel

BMWHillbilly said:


> You sound a bit contradicting in your statement. Getting a pup from a shelter or rescue is _skimping on health checks?_ therefore ..._just plain cheap_? A shelter or rescue cannot guarantee a healthy dog. You don't know what the genetics or health is. I have a rescue dog (lab mix) with a myriad of health problems. I gave him a loving home as a pup and accepted whatever came my way as far as his health. He is 11 years old now and is happy and has had a good life. I wouldn't call that "cheap". I call it giving a dog a chance at life and a warm loving home for their lifetime despite their shortcomings.


I wonder where that lab mix was bred and came from.. a backyard breeder perhaps?

She's saying that if you want to be cheap and buy from a backyard breeder that you know is skimping on health tests instead of a reputable breeder or adopting, that you're a cheap person. You took that the wrong way.


----------



## qbchottu

BMWHillbilly said:


> A shelter or rescue cannot guarantee a healthy dog. You don't know what the genetics or health is.


Neither do you with a BYB, but it is a question of the ETHICS behind your purchase. 

Let me use this example: 
Say you really want collagen implants in your lips. You want it so badly, but find out that the cost of plastic surgery with a board certified plastic surgeon is a little too pricey for you. But you REALLY REALLY REALLY want those puffy lips! So you go find a pharmacy school dropout working out of his apartment in Queens with collagen shipped in from Mexico that will do it for pennies on the dollar! Wow! Cheap, easy, quick! And who cares about the health risks, right? You will just go do a checkup with your PCP and make sure it's all kosher after the fact. 

You still end up with your lovely new lips, in fact you probably end up with it sooner and easier than going to a reputable surgeon. But what were your ETHICS and LOGIC behind the action? Those reputable surgeons will ALSO have a failure rate, but his percentage will be minuscule compared to the dicey guy with no MD, experience or knowledge. 

So which is better? If it's all the same and you are willing to take the gamble, they should both be equal right? 

Afterall, that is what you've done with your BYB pup. You took a gamble. I hope it pays off. It might. But don't tell me that your pup has the same odds as one coming out of a breeder worth a dime.


----------



## BMWHillbilly

DJEtzel said:


> I wonder where that lab mix was bred and came from.. a backyard breeder perhaps?


Don't most shelter dogs come from _somewhere_ and are mixed? Doesn't matter where they came from. I adopted and helped 1 dog live a good life that otherwise would probably have been PTS. 




> She's saying that if you want to be cheap and buy from a backyard breeder that you know is skimping on health tests instead of a reputable breeder *or adopting*, that you're a cheap person. You took that the wrong way.


Ok point taken. But, you don't know the true pedigree or lineage if you adopt. Highly unlikely any records like that are known in a shelter. You surely don't know the health or any potential health problems.


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## DJEtzel

BMWHillbilly said:


> Ok point taken. But, you don't know the true pedigree or lineage if you adopt. Highly unlikely any records like that are known in a shelter. You surely don't know the health or any potential health problems.


But you're supporting an ethical organization if you adopt and an unethical breeder who's going to keep breeding poor examples of the breed if you keep handing him money. The shelter will keep neutering those pets and adopting them to loving homes if you give them money


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## Odin24

DJEtzel said:


> What problems? How long after the fact? Are they going to take her and give you your money back when you can finally get her xrayed at 2 years old and she has Hip Dysplasia? Are they going to refund your money? Was there a contract stating this all?
> 
> Unfortunately, you cannot look at a puppy and tell just how many health problems there are going to be as a result of crappy breeding on the BYBs part. Bubbles has no known genetic testing, lineage of any kind... she could very easily end up with extreme HD, EPI, DM, etc. because her breeders were too cheap to test for health issues that don't crop up in 8 week old puppies.


So, what testing are the reputable breeders doing that is screening for HD, EPI, DM etc. There are no tests for these. Dogs with excellent hips can throw HD. Do reputable breeders have some top secret tests that they can run that are not known to the veterinary world?


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## Anitsisqua

Actually, you can test for DM.


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## Odin24

Anitsisqua said:


> Actually, you can test for DM.


i just lost a dog to it in August. There isn't a difinitive test for it in a living dog. Necropsy after the fact is it. It a best guess by a vet based on symptoms. You can't test a potential breeding dog for it and screen out any possibilities. Its thought to be autoimmune.

I don't know where most of the reputable breeders on this forum live but I'm guessing its not in Ohio or surrounding states. I have yet to come across a breeder with a two year or more health guarantee. Believe me, I looked long and hard before buying any of my GSD's and didn't come across anything like the guarantee's people here are saying they give. I've also noticed that the contracts never seem to be posted on the websites of those of you posting here where I can find a website. Easy to say what reputable is but why aren't breeders posting this wonder contract information on their websites for all to see. I would think it would help potential buyers decide on contacting you for a future puppy.


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## Liesje

Odin24 said:


> So, what testing are the reputable breeders doing that is screening for HD, EPI, DM etc. There are no tests for these. Dogs with excellent hips can throw HD. Do reputable breeders have some top secret tests that they can run that are not known to the veterinary world?


Using HD as an example.....HD is polygenic, so it is genetic. If having an HD-free dog was my priority I would check the hip results for not only the parents, but the last 3-4 generations, plus the parents' siblings, and the progeny the parents have already produced, maybe even look for a repeat litter or look for a pairing of dogs that have already both produced. I would also dig around for info from other breeders who have experience with the lines, as some lines are known for good/bad hip production. It's up to the buyer to decide how important each factor (hips, elbows, DM, etc) is when buying their dog or how much leniency to allow (how many instances of HD in the pedigree, etc) but if the buyer isn't doing the research then they can't come here and say that they were duped.


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## Anitsisqua

I'm sorry for your loss, but the DNA test for the mutated gene that is the primary cause of DM has been quite accurate.


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## BMWHillbilly

qbchottu said:


> .....Afterall, that is what you've done with your BYB pup. You took a gamble. I hope it pays off. It might. But don't tell me that your pup has the same odds as one coming out of a breeder worth a dime.


Who says i have a BYB pup? What constitutes a breeder "worth a dime"? She is just not as expensive as others have posted what they have paid for their pups. She is from a good breeder, very small scale.


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## Freestep

Bubbles said:


> not all dogs are healthy. Breeders, byb, shelters or otherwise. unless you happen to be god no one can guarantee a healthy puppy.


You didn't answer the question... when is a BYB better than a responsible breeder?



> This is my first dog.


Aha.

After your 5th or 6th dog, after you have lost one or two to debilitating disease, after you have trained, titled, lived with dogs into their old age (and yours), met many other dog owners, gone to shows, trials, kept in touch with breeders over time, watched fellow dog owners' trials and tribulations, read, studied, discussed and worked with others on subjects such as training, behavior, the breed standard, genetics, etc., worked with literally thousands of dogs in a professional setting, worked in shelters and rescues and fostered dogs... after all that gathering of information, knowledge, experience, after all the successes and failures, the love, the blood, sweat and tears....

... you might, just MIGHT, see your opinions evolve into something different than what they are at the moment.

I remember thinking, when I was 18 or so, that there was nothing wrong with BYBs. I got my first dog from a BYB, in fact. The rest is history.


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## gaia_bear

qbchottu said:


> Yup. Agree.
> 
> To the ones arguing with the naysayers, experience and time will teach them more than our words will. Unfortunately, some people don't learn until they go through it themselves. We speak from experience and hope to dissuade others from making the same mistakes we did. But the most infuriating thing about human beings is that you will need to stand back and let them make their own mistakes so they may learn as well.


Being a first time dog owner and ending up with a BYB puppy, I've learned a lot from those of you that take the time out of their day to educate people like myself whom were ignorant on the difference. I, thank you for opening my eyes to what exactly I can get for a dog. Yes, any dog is a gamble, no matter the price tag but so are most things in life. I just thought I'd let you know your advice is not falling on deaf ears.


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## Jag

Freestep said:


> Aha.
> 
> After your 5th or 6th dog, after you have lost one or two to debilitating disease, after you have trained, titled, lived with dogs into their old age (and yours), met many other dog owners, gone to shows, trials, kept in touch with breeders over time, watched fellow dog owners' trials and tribulations, read, studied, discussed and worked with others on subjects such as training, behavior, the breed standard, genetics, etc., worked with literally thousands of dogs in a professional setting, worked in shelters and rescues and fostered dogs... after all that gathering of information, knowledge, experience, after all the successes and failures, the love, the blood, sweat and tears....
> 
> ... you might, just MIGHT, see your opinions evolve into something different than what they are at the moment.


It doesn't take all of this to get the point. Trust me. All it really takes is one dog with a messed up head that has unpredictable aggression. Live with that for several years and you'll NEVER want to risk that again!


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## Anitsisqua

Jag said:


> It doesn't take all of this to get the point. Trust me. All it really takes is one dog with a messed up head that has unpredictable aggression. Live with that for several years and you'll NEVER want to risk that again!


Or one smart, good-natured, much-loved dog with insurmountable health problems.


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## Jax08

Anitsisqua said:


> I'm sorry for your loss, but the DNA test for the mutated gene that is the primary cause of DM has been quite accurate.


There is alot of information out there that says not only is the test not that accurate but there may be different types of DM depending on the breed.


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## Anitsisqua

Jax08 said:


> There is alot of information out there that says not only is the test not that accurate but there may be different types of DM depending on the breed.


I have read about a couple of outliers where the test did not detect an at-risk dog, but the majority seemed to be detected by the DNA test. No medical test is 100% accurate.

Also, I imagine that, since it's a fairly new test, it will continue to improve in accuracy with time and modifications.


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## Blanketback

We know we can't housebreak a puppy by smacking it with a newspaper, so why would smacking a GSD novice with aquired wisdom be any different? I hope that anyone who *is* buying from BYBs isn't alienated by any comments, because this board has alot to offer, and it will only be the dogs themselves that suffer if the owners have nowhere to turn for help. Live and learn....not just a saying, lol.


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## katdog5911

I have been following this thread with interest. I absolutely want to get another GSD one day. I had never heard of a byb before joining this forum. I guess Stella came from a byb. Don't know much about her parents as I got her after my son bought her and couldn't keep her. I am getting kind of scared reading about all the diseases and temperament problems. My family has owned GSDs as I was growing up. None came from a breeder. All were either strays that I brought home or were given to us for one reason or another. Each dog was great with the exception of one. None had papers and we knew nothing about background or parents. I guess we were just very lucky?


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## Anitsisqua

I suppose so, katdog. I brought this conversation up to a coworker today, and he said that he would never get another GSD because when he was a kid, over a period of several years, they had six German Shepherds and every single one of them slowly started to become paralyzed (I'm assuming DM).

He said that these dogs were not related.

So, I guess where some people have good luck with BYB dogs, people like Tony's family got all the bad.


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## DJEtzel

Odin24 said:


> So, what testing are the reputable breeders doing that is screening for HD, EPI, DM etc. There are no tests for these. Dogs with excellent hips can throw HD. Do reputable breeders have some top secret tests that they can run that are not known to the veterinary world?


So once again, you can test for HD through X-rays which all reputable breeders do in hips and elbows, to make sure they are not breeding dogs with HD. I admittedly do not have a lot of info on DM testing, but like Anti* up there, have heard about a lot of tests being good sources. Better than nothing by far.


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## qbchottu

BMWHillbilly said:


> Who says i have a BYB pup?


Then why are you arguing so vehemently for them? 


BMWHillbilly said:


> What constitutes a breeder "worth a dime"?


Go back to page 1 and read through the thread again. Many people have told you what they feel is reputable versus what is disreputable practices for a breeder. There are also several stickys and threads on this matter. Look it up if you haven't gotten the idea by now. 


BMWHillbilly said:


> She is just not as expensive as others have posted what they have paid for their pups. She is from a good breeder, very small scale.


When did money ever factor into the equation? I could care less what you paid for your dog. I will pay 100,000$ or 100$ for the right dog. Who cares what it costs? The point most people make is that if you go through the proper channels, methods and processes, you CANNOT feasibly hope to break even by selling your dogs below a certain amount. Go look into what it takes to groom an appropriate breeding dog so it reaches its potential and one can make an honest evaluation on its value to the breed. It would make your head spin. In that same vein, there are breeders out there charging ludicrous amounts for mediocre pups out of big name kennels that you couldn't pay me to take. So no, money doesn't equate to quality. 

The point most people are making is that you should give your business to those that do it the RIGHT way, because each time you hand over your cash to an unscrupulous person randomly putting a male and female together for the sake of generating pups, you contribute to and are part of the problem. No two ways around that. So if can honestly say without bias that you are convinced your breeder is a good breeder and will stand up to the criteria others have laid out for you on this thread, then kudos to you. Nobody could wish you well more than I do. But the impression you gave previously with your defensive responses is not the tone I am getting now.


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## Freestep

Blanketback said:


> I hope that anyone who *is* buying from BYBs isn't alienated by any comments, because this board has alot to offer, and it will only be the dogs themselves that suffer if the owners have nowhere to turn for help.


I think many (if not most) of us on this board have gotten a BYB dog at some point, I know I did! It's one of those things that most people who don't live and breathe dogs just don't know--the distinction between a BYB and a responsible breeder. 

I have known several intelligent, highly educated people who bought dogs from BYBs, or online BYBs, simply because they didn't know any better. Most of the public has "got it" that we aren't supposed to buy puppies from pet stores or puppymills, but what does that leave? Not realizing that there are BAD breeders out there, and that most of them advertise on the Internet, cragislist, and the local classifieds, this is the first place a person will look. The average person is not going to realize the physical, ethical, and financial consequences of supporting a bad breeder until it's too late.

Regardless of where a dog came from, it deserves to be loved and given the best care the owner can provide; there is no lesser intrinsic value in a dog of mixed or unknown lineage than the show-winningest pedigreed purebred.


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## Blanketback

Same here Freestep, and my BYB GSDs were amazing. This puppy is from a breeder, because now that I *know better* I want the breed to be bred by people who know more about the breed itself that just knowing about 'the birds and the bees' lol. But I also know of people who've bought from "breeders" and their dogs have EPI and HD, so...I just don't want to be a hypocrite. I've supported BYB in the past, through ignorance, and I don't begrudge anyone else doing what I've done. Like I said, live and learn.


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## Liesje

Buying from a BYB and defending them are two different things. When I was little my sister and I got guinea pigs from the pet store. I still feel guilty about it and I won't sit here and argue in favor of doing it. Luckily I learned my lesson then and have never even thought to get a dog from a BYB or puppy mill or pet store.


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## Bubbles

Freestep said:


> You didn't answer the question... when is a BYB better than a responsible breeder?
> 
> 
> 
> Aha.
> 
> After your 5th or 6th dog, after you have lost one or two to debilitating disease, after you have trained, titled, lived with dogs into their old age (and yours), met many other dog owners, gone to shows, trials, kept in touch with breeders over time, watched fellow dog owners' trials and tribulations, read, studied, discussed and worked with others on subjects such as training, behavior, the breed standard, genetics, etc., worked with literally thousands of dogs in a professional setting, worked in shelters and rescues and fostered dogs... after all that gathering of information, knowledge, experience, after all the successes and failures, the love, the blood, sweat and tears....
> 
> ... you might, just MIGHT, see your opinions evolve into something different than what they are at the moment.
> 
> I remember thinking, when I was 18 or so, that there was nothing wrong with BYBs. I got my first dog from a BYB, in fact. The rest is history.


like I said bubbles is a companion. She isn't competing in anything. She is my partner to do stuff with. pet smart insurance told me I am to take bubbles every 6 months to the vet. So if something does come up there is preventative care. I don't remember who said they only took their dog 3 times in the life of their dog to a vet. you need to do it more often. Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case. 

Bubbles will be my only dog. I have bad knees the older I get the worse it gets and I won't be able to care for a dog after bubbles. At least I'm able to have my favorite breed of dog next to greyhounds. I really don't care about the lineage or genetics. I just feel lucky to find the right dog


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## Blanketback

True, and I'm *not* defending them. But if you turned back the clock, I could very well be, because I didn't know then what I do know now. I'll stand behind the dogs, but not behind the reasons for producing them.


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## qbchottu

Bubbles said:


> I don't remember who said they only took their dog 3 times in the life of their dog to a vet. you need to do it more often.


If the dog needs to go to the vet, I take it to the vet. If it is healthy, it doesn't need to go to the vet. That's the crazy thing about healthy dogs, they don't need an ambulance ride to the e-vet every time they get a papercut 

On the other hand, my little rescue girl Puddi goes to the vet multiple times a year for antibiotics, skin scrapes and allergy shots. She has severe seasonal allergies and periodic staph infections. 



BMWHillbilly said:


> Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case.


That doesn't make you a better owner. That makes you a hypochondriac.


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## Anitsisqua

qbchottu said:


> If the dog needs to go to the vet, I take it to the vet. If it is healthy, it doesn't need to go to the vet. That's the crazy thing about healthy dogs, they don't need an ambulance ride to the e-vet every time they get a papercut
> 
> On the other hand, my little rescue girl Puddi goes to the vet multiple times a year for antibiotics, skin scrapes and allergy shots. She has severe seasonal allergies and periodic staph infections.
> 
> 
> That doesn't make you a better owner. That makes you a hypochondriac.


You mis-attributed that second quote.

Also, I can't say much about this. I'm paranoid when it comes to Gabe's health. I don't rush him to the vet right away, but I'm a professional worrywart.


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## qbchottu

If it makes you feel better to rush the dog to the vet for every scrape and cut, that's your prerogative and has no impact on what I do. If it gives you peace of mind to do that, that's great and you should continue to do so. But I will not take my dogs to the vet simply because there is some magic number of times my dog must visit the dog so they remain healthy, as there is no such thing. They will go when it is necessary and if there is a medical reason to do so. If I can treat it at home, I do. If I need veterinary help, I go to the vet. Simple.


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## Anitsisqua

qbchottu said:


> If it makes you feel better to rush the dog to the vet for every scrape and cut, that's your prerogative and has no impact on what I do. If it gives you peace of mind to do that, that's great and you should continue to do so. But I will not take my dogs to the vet simply because there is some magic number of times my dog must visit the dog so they remain healthy, as there is no such thing.


Oh, no. I wasn't saying that. I'm sure you're in the right here. I just meant that it's one of my personal shortcomings that I worry. A lot. We usually don't end up at the vet over it, and it's never over a scrape or cut, but still...


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## Liesje

Pan is almost 2.5 years old and has never been to the vet for anything other than mile-marker things only a vet can do (rabies vaccine and hip/elbow x-rays). I don't think he's ever even had an ear infection. I've never treated him for anything at home either.


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## PatchonGSD

> Originally Posted by BMWHillbilly
> Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case.





> That doesn't make you a better owner. That makes you a hypochondriac.


:spittingcoffee:


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## qbchottu

Liesje said:


> Pan is almost 2.5 years old and has never been to the vet for anything other than mile-marker things only a vet can do (rabies vaccine and hip/elbow x-rays). I don't think he's ever even had an ear infection. I've never treated him for anything at home either.


Yup. Exact same with Wiva. The others have needed extra care and have visited the vet when necessary.


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## BMWHillbilly

qbchottu said:


> Originally Posted by *BMWHillbilly*
> _Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case._


 
First off, that is not my quote. You need to correct it. 

Secondly, just because the OP of that quote once to take their pet to the vet more often than you do doesn't justify you criticizing and making fun of them. so what if they do?


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## qbchottu

Wow...so out of all that, you respond to that minor error. The two of you melted into one in my mind. So sorry. I will get a mod on it asap!!! This kind of misinformation cannot be tolerated!


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## BMWHillbilly

qbchottu said:


> Wow...so out of all that, you respond to that minor error. The two of you melted into one in my mind. So sorry. I will get a mod on it asap!!! This kind of misinformation cannot be tolerated!


 
hehe....yep.


----------



## katdog5911

Soooooo....since I know zippity doo da about Stella's lineage, what can I do now to help her be as healthy as possible? She is utd on vaccinations, has been spayed and eats fromms food. She is in obedience and is well socialized. We are working on dog reactivity and it is going well. She seems healthy. I have seen her bunny hop sometimes so should I be concerned about hd? She came through a nasty bout of giardia and puppy warts with no I'll effects. Should her hips be x rayed?


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## Bubbles

qbchottu said:


> Wow...so out of all that, you respond to that minor error. The two of you melted into one in my mind. So sorry. I will get a mod on it asap!!! This kind of misinformation cannot be tolerated!


I hope you do get a moderator. I'm tired of being insulted being called a child, belittled and now being called a hypochondriac because I love and worry for my pets.


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## qbchottu

haha oh come on. You and I both know it was said in jest. Don't make it into something it isn't.



Bubbles said:


> Or maybe your not smart enough to know you can take your dogs to check up visits. lol...


You insinuated in a roundabout way that I was an idiot or simpleton. Did I get up in arms? Nah, I put my big girl pants on and continued the debate.


----------



## qbchottu

Also, where were you called a child? Or insulted?


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## Jack's Dad

Bubbles said:


> I hope you do get a moderator. I'm tired of being insulted being called a child, belittled and now being called a hypochondriac because I love and worry for my pets.


 If you are happy about where you got your dog and want to take it to the vet, then don't worry about what others think.

There are people who are very pro "reputable breeder" on here and it is useless to argue.

I'm pro reputable breeder although I think what one is "reputable breeder" is subject to interpretation.

I don't necessarily buy the standard line on what one is.

Anyway if my neighbors had a puppy from a dog I liked and I decided to go ahead and get it, I wouldn't feel like I was contributing to the pet overpopulation. Nor would I allow anyone to make me feel guilty.

Over the course of my progression as a dog owner of many years, Iv'e had dogs from Reputable Breeders, BYB's (whatever that definition is),humane society, rescue, re-homed from private party, a gift and one from a pet store. 
The rescue dog had problems, and a couple died young in the old days when distemper was rampant. The rest, pure bred or mutt, were great family dogs with no major health or temperament issues.

I've had three pure bred GSD's and two GSD mixes all fantastic dogs. Only two were from so called RB's.

So take from that whatever. We all are learning to one degree or the other.


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## Freestep

Bubbles said:


> like I said bubbles is a companion. She isn't competing in anything. She is my partner to do stuff with. pet smart insurance told me I am to take bubbles every 6 months to the vet. So if something does come up there is preventative care. I don't remember who said they only took their dog 3 times in the life of their dog to a vet. you need to do it more often. Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case.
> 
> Bubbles will be my only dog. I have bad knees the older I get the worse it gets and I won't be able to care for a dog after bubbles. At least I'm able to have my favorite breed of dog next to greyhounds. I really don't care about the lineage or genetics. I just feel lucky to find the right dog


Still looking for an answer to the question: When is a BYB better than a responsible breeder? You said this yourself and I need clarification on what you meant, because it makes no sense to me... maybe I am stupid? 

If you don't want to answer that question, or you made the comment by mistake and don't want to defend it, that's fine, I'll stop asking.


----------



## Sieger

Bubbles said:


> wow, insults... amazing . *not worth my time or acknowledgment*





Bubbles said:


> I hope you do get a moderator. I'm tired of being insulted being called a child, belittled and now being called a hypochondriac because I love and worry for my pets.





Blanketback said:


> We know we can't housebreak a puppy by smacking it with a newspaper, so why would smacking a GSD novice with aquired wisdom be any different?


Well, I would like to believe that rational human beings have the ability to be persuaded and change their mindset when presented with blatant logic.


I will confess that before reading threads on this site, and despite having had a shelter shepherd for years, I thought, "Why, exactly, is it so bad to buy from someone that is blindly breeding dogs?" I even searched Craigslist , looked at cute puppy pictures, and saw that the pups didn't look much different than those you'd find from a reputable breeder. However, the very sketchy, unprofessional ad descriptions turned me off and I decided to do more research to see what I was getting myself into... which landed me here.

I learned that GSD's have a lot more health issues than I thought, and the consequences of buying from a backyard (bad, not reputable etc.) breeder. It seems to me that it's not really a matter of opinion, it's realizing the connection between where most shelter dogs come, what causes health problems in dog breeds, and understanding the motivations ($) of _most_ BYBs. Even though you may take great care of a BYB dog (healthy or not), why support an industry that in the end, causes a lot of pain and hardship for many dogs and owners? Supporting something like that seems like the downright wrong decision to me.


----------



## GatorDog

Sieger said:


> Well, I would like to believe that rational human beings have the ability to be persuaded and change their mindset when presented with blatant logic.
> 
> 
> I will confess that before reading threads on this site, and despite having had a shelter shepherd for years, I thought, "Why, exactly, is it so bad to buy from someone that is blindly breeding dogs?" I even searched Craigslist , looked at cute puppy pictures, and saw that the pups didn't look much different than those you'd find from a reputable breeder. However, the very sketchy, unprofessional ad descriptions turned me off and I decided to do more research to see what I was getting myself into... which landed me here.
> 
> I learned that GSD's have a lot more health issues than I thought, and the consequences of buying from a backyard (bad, not reputable etc.) breeder. It seems to me that it's not really a matter of opinion, it's realizing the connection between where most shelter dogs come, what causes health problems in dog breeds, and understanding the motivations ($) of _most_ BYBs. Even though you may take great care of a BYB dog (healthy or not), why support an industry that in the end, causes a lot of pain and hardship for many dogs and owners?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Excellent!!!


----------



## qbchottu

Sieger said:


> I learned that GSD's have a lot more health issues than I thought, and the consequences of buying from a backyard (bad, not reputable etc.) breeder. It seems to me that it's not really a matter of opinion, it's realizing the connection between where most shelter dogs come, what causes health problems in dog breeds, and understanding the motivations ($) of _most_ BYBs. Even though you may take great care of a BYB dog (healthy or not), why support an industry that in the end, causes a lot of pain and hardship for many dogs and owners? Supporting something like that seems like the downright wrong decision to me.


Awesome! :thumbup:


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## msvette2u

> causes a lot of pain and hardship for many dogs and owners?



THIS!
Because, as I live and breathe, I could write a book (and probably should) about the dogs with unfixable health problems, often leading to euthanasia way before their time should be up!

WHY SUPPORT THAT??
Seriously?? Even if you "get lucky" a time or two, what about the pups in that litter that _didn't_?? 

Over 7k GSDs today on Petfinder. 
Pet Search Results: Adoptable German Shepherd Dog Dog Pets in Prosser, WA: Petfinder


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## Blanketback

Sieger said:


> ...I thought, "Why, exactly, is it so bad to buy from someone that is blindly breeding dogs?"... I decided to do more research...


And I commend you for your change of heart. But that was exactly my point - not to alienate those that *haven't* done the research. And I do believe that just telling someone that they're wrong isn't the way to teach them. Even presenting a logical arguement isn't good enough, if they don't understand the basic principles.


----------



## DJEtzel

katdog5911 said:


> Soooooo....since I know zippity doo da about Stella's lineage, what can I do now to help her be as healthy as possible? She is utd on vaccinations, has been spayed and eats fromms food. She is in obedience and is well socialized. We are working on dog reactivity and it is going well. She seems healthy. I have seen her bunny hop sometimes so should I be concerned about hd? She came through a nasty bout of giardia and puppy warts with no I'll effects. Should her hips be x rayed?


If she starts to have issues, you can xray them. If you're not going to show her or breed her, there's really no reason to waste the money until something happens, since there's not much you can do to stop it anyway.


----------



## Freestep

Sieger said:


> Well, I would like to believe that rational human beings have the ability to be persuaded and change their mindset when presented with blatant logic.


I think I love you! 



> It seems to me that it's not really a matter of opinion, it's realizing the connection between where most shelter dogs come, what causes health problems in dog breeds, and understanding the motivations ($) of _most_ BYBs. Even though you may take great care of a BYB dog (healthy or not), why support an industry that in the end, causes a lot of pain and hardship for many dogs and owners? Supporting something like that seems like the downright wrong decision to me.


Now I know I love you. :wub:

It's refreshing to get a newbie in here who is thoughtful, intelligent and open-minded. So many come in asking for advice, don't get the advice they want to hear, and become angry, offended and defensive. Now, I for one do enjoy rational argument and lively debate, I think we can learn a lot through it, but it has to be intelligent and well-reasoned (just calling someone "stupid" doesn't count--tell me WHY I'm stupid) and I am glad to see that this thread you started has been informative rather than overwhelming for you! Threads about breeding always get heated.


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## Sieger

Blanketback said:


> And I commend you for your change of heart. But that was exactly my point - not to alienate those that *haven't* done the research. And I do believe that just telling someone that they're wrong isn't the way to teach them. Even presenting a logical arguement isn't good enough, if they don't understand the basic principles.


I don't quite know if I understand.  If they're reading the thread and the pros and cons to BYB, aren't they doing research on the subject? Were the basic principles not covered in the thread? All the information that one could read about how "bad" or "good" BYBs are would be considered reading arguments for or against the subject.


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## msvette2u

> Were the basic principles not covered in the thread?


That's pretty much it!!

Now, they can take the information given and absorb it (as have you) or reject it, at this point, but yeah, over the past 18 pages, the negative aspects of going to BYBs have been covered as well as the positive aspects of rescuing or purchasing a well-bred dog from a good breeder.


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## Sieger

Freestep said:


> Now I know I love you. :wub:
> 
> It's refreshing to get a newbie in here who is thoughtful, intelligent and open-minded. So many come in asking for advice, don't get the advice they want to hear, and become angry, offended and defensive. Now, I for one do enjoy rational argument and lively debate, I think we can learn a lot through it, but it has to be intelligent and well-reasoned (just calling someone "stupid" doesn't count--tell me WHY I'm stupid) and I am glad to see that this thread you started has been informative rather than overwhelming for you! Threads about breeding always get heated.


:wub: 

Heated is right! I could hardly believe it when I logged on one day and saw it had 10+ pages.


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## Blanketback

In another context, it's like talking about purchasing a $3 t-shirt from Walmart, or a more expensive one manufactured on this soil. There's alot more to it that just buying one that suits your budget. What are you supporting? At what cost? If someone says that the BYB puppies deserve a home too, you're definitely not on the same page, arguement wise. Not even in the same library, lol! It doesn't matter how valid your points are, they're lost.


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## mebully21

byb's were put on this earth to satisfy the people who CANT wait for the right dog to come along at the right time. byb's are here because humans are I WANT THIS NOW I DONT WANT TO WAIT I WANT IT NOW and no one wants to wait for the right dog to come along... they dont want to wait for the perfect match, they want what they want at that moment and thats it.... they dont have patience.... if everyone stopped being so impatient and actually took their time to find the right shelter/rescue/breeder then byb's wouldnt be around....... i searched for 2 YEARS to find the right dog to bring home, i knew what i wanted and what i didnt want, and i made sure to take my time to find what i wanted... could i have brought home a puppy or adult dog earlier? yes i could have, but i wasnt going to skimp on the important issues i wanted, and i wasnt going to compromise either... so i waited and looked and took my time- something most folks WONT do...


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## chelle

Interesting thread, as all the byb vs breeder threads tend to be. 

Dog #1 was purchased from a pet store when I was 18. First dog. Lived longer than his breed standard and a very nice dog, but absolutely plagued with many expensive health problems.

Dog #2 was very well researched, paid top dollar, was everything and more in terms of temperment that I wanted. The breeder made a perfect match for me. She has had allergies which are now managed well with diet but is mostly blind at just 9.5. Her breed standard life span avg is 15.

Dog #3 came home from an "internet" breeder. She came home at 10 weeks old with parvo and survived. When I called the breeder, she insisted the dog picked it up when she was with me. Impossible with the incubation times of parvo. She's now five and has never been sick a day in her life, never an infection or health issue of any kind, is perfect to breed standard for size and behavior.

Dog #4 is my WGSD mix Bailey. His parents were both byb dogs. He has some nerve issues, but tons of early work and socialization have turned him almost completely around. Struggled with digestive problems for many months, but has cleared up. He was a total crapshoot I knew, and indeed, there was some "crap" to deal with.

So?? I learned as I went. When I bought that petshop dog, Internet didn't exist and I didn't know that was a bad thing. Many years later, I did know and put everything I had, took my time, saved $$$ to ensure I got the best I could, but have still dealt with the health issues. Then I was fooled by the next breeder because it all seemed so right, but here's a new pup with parvo and the breeder violated her own health contract. That's when I knew I'd been fooled by a byb in spite of thinking I knew what I was doing!

There are no guarantees, but I'll echo the sentiment expressed here repeatedly: you stack the deck in your favor with a quality breeder. Now, granted, the girl I got from the good breeder has had health issues and that sucks, but sadly they are normal for that breed. At least her temperament is better than fantastic and her health problems (other than catarachts) are managed pretty easily now. (Allergies - controlled by proper food; hypothyroid - controlled by twice daily pills.)

I once sold some pups (Bailey's littermates) thru CL. It wasn't my responsibility, it was a family member who was stupid and allowed the mixed breed dogs to come into the world. When people responded, I was very honest. The dogs were mixed. The dogs were healthy but had no OFA checks, etc. They were priced low and in hindsight, that was likely foolish because I believe it does encourage impulsive buys. Two of them came back to me -- and one stayed for eight months. Another stayed a year with a woman, and then she emailed that she'd rehomed her. How many CL sellers actually want the dog to come back? Not many. How many CL sellers stand behind those dogs? Not many. 

With a breeder, you are not only buying a dog, you are buying the future support of the breeder and that is a very, very big thing.


----------



## onyx'girl

mebully21 said:


> byb's were put on this earth to satisfy the people who CANT wait for the right dog to come along at the right time. byb's are here because humans are I WANT THIS NOW I DONT WANT TO WAIT I WANT IT NOW and no one wants to wait for the right dog to come along... * they dont want to wait* for the perfect match, they want what they want at that moment and thats it.... *they dont have patience*.... if everyone stopped being so impatient and actually *took their time* to find the right shelter/rescue/breeder then byb's wouldnt be around....... .


If they would be more patient, take more time and wait they'd have enough $ saved to support a good breeder or pay a rescue what they are asking as well. But the excuse is always "I don't have the $ to buy an expensive dog" when in reality the expense is not in the purchase but everything else the dog need thru out life. Will they take shortcuts with that as well? 

Some rescues will not adopt to certain people, so those people find a breeder whose criteria isn't as strict....even shelters sometimes are selective in who is allowed to save a dog. The irresponsible breeder is not so selective.


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## Jack's Dad

It is a process. People can go their whole lives owning dogs and never once care about genetics, bloodlines, health testing etc...

I think some of these threads are way beyond what the public cares about.

The buyers aren't bad people with a goal of creating an overpopulation of dogs.

They go to work and come home to the family, and the dog they got from the guy down the street, whose dog had an oops litter.

If they can walk the dog and it doesn't bite people and stays half way healthy they are happy.

I had three horses in my life that were three different breeds. I wanted them to ride.

One had health problems and the other two were fine for my needs.

I had no reason to try to figure out the lineage of my horses. No thought to their breeding. 

That's how I believe it works for the vast majority of dog owners.


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## msvette2u

> I think some of these threads are way beyond what the public cares about.
> 
> No thought to their breeding.
> 
> That's how I believe it works for the vast majority of dog owners.
> _________


Which is _exactly_ why dogs are dying by the thousands, daily, across the nation.

(AND THIS)


> The irresponsible breeder is not so selective.


----------



## msvette2u

> If someone says that the BYB puppies deserve a home too, you're definitely not on the same page, arguement wise. Not even in the same library, lol! It doesn't matter how valid your points are, they're lost.


Something people don't stop to consider is that these BYB dogs quite often wind up in homes that aren't willing to go the extra mile for the dog they "couldn't wait to have", either.
Meaning, they are the 1st to wind up in shelters when the owner fails to train, either house train, or toss puppy in backyard where it lives until they've heard enough of the barking, where it will dig it's way to China and then folks dump it (it ruined the backyard), chain it until it gets so unmanageable it is dumped one way or another, and a host of other things. They are the pets being dumped over and over on craigslist, too. 

The purebred puppies we get in rescue are a product of these breeders; given up when they contracted parvo, or when they break a limb or some such and the owner who didn't really want to spend the $200-400 on it in the 1st place can't afford treatment, etc. Often we get the full history on the puppies...they come from BYBs and one even from the Flea market. 

The people buying these unfortunate dogs usually have a view of these pets that they are quite expendable. We see it over and over in rescue.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> Which is _exactly_ why dogs are dying by the thousands, daily, across the nation.
> 
> (AND THIS)


Could be. In the U.S. though it's called capitalism. 

As much as we love our dogs they are still a product.

It's not illegal to buy and sell dogs, so it will continue. Breeders don't want restrictions and I understand why but that leaves it wide open.

These back and forth arguments are interesting and sometimes funny but they won't change the big picture.


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## msvette2u

I agree but we must continue to educate - for the sake of the dogs as well as people.
To say "oh well it won't change", doesn't mean you have to be part of the problem!
And if you're not a part of the solution you _are_ part of the problem


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## Blanketback

I totally agree with what you're saying. But when you're trying to educate someone, I think you should try very hard to understand their viewpoint first, and then try to communicate with them on their level. Not just plow ahead and then ridicule them when they fail to see it from your standpoint. Not if you truly want to educate them.


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## msvette2u

BB, I enjoy your posts...but if you read back to the 1st pages (and I hope you're not saying "you" as in "me" because I didn't have much input for quite a while!) you'll see that everything has been presented quite frankly and quite simply.
There's but one "point of view" that people have when talking about BYB, and that's generally what we've been discussing..."I want WHAT I want, WHEN I want it, and HOW I want it".

I see it over and over in rescue - not _in _rescue per se, but from those who are declined an adoption for one reason or another, and tell me they'll just go to a BYB then, or a "pet store" for their puppy.

What view point is that? It sounds a lot like pure selfishness to me :shrug:
It is a symptom of what is wrong in this nation, with regards to a lot more than just pet ownership. 
Money can buy anything and if you don't have the money, oh well, get a credit card...oh, and those pet stores offer financing 

Is it..."can't understand" or "don't want to"?


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## robk

Wow this has turned into a long thread.


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## Blanketback

Thank you msv, I enjoy your posts too - you know I missed you - and no, I definitely am not pointing the finger at you. I mean all of us should be more conscious of how we're projecting our side of things, so that others will be more receptive to our ideas. I've noticed that people can shut down, just like dogs can, so we need to be careful about this.


----------



## chelle

Blanketback said:


> Thank you msv, I enjoy your posts too - you know I missed you - and no, I definitely am not pointing the finger at you. I mean all of us should be more conscious of how we're projecting our side of things, so that others will be more receptive to our ideas. I've noticed that people can shut down, just like dogs can, so we need to be careful about this.


I agree with you to an extent.. but what happens far more often than not, is people become very personally offended that their byb dog is being "attacked." (Or is how they perceive it.) It is taken personally, as though their dog, that came to them thru means other than a high quality breeder, is not a "good" dog. 

Byb dogs can certainly be "good" dogs. I have one. Many of us do. We are not bad humans automatically because we have them and our dogs are certainly not bad doggers because they came from less than reputable starts.

So somehow we need to put across a bigger picture to people -- that it isn't about their dogs... It is about the support of a part of society that breeds dogs indiscriminately to make a buck, without care or concern for the health or temperament of the breed as a whole. That their support of poor, indiscriminate breeding does nothing more than to encourage such people to produce more puppies. If people did not buy them, the financial incentive would not be there. This argument, this anti byb-stance, is focused on those who ARE out there producing pups without regard for anything other than the income they can collect. I am not referring to the oops litters of the world... I am referring to those who very intentionally, with sole intent on making a buck, slowly but surely ruin the gene pool for their own selfish (financial) goals.

I've watched this happen in my area with Cocker Spaniels and it makes me sick. It happens with so many breeds! These money sucking scumbags who apparently can't work a real job, instead mate dogs and exist on that income. I do despise such people. When you buy their pups, you perpetuate the cycle. It is not about your dog, it is about a much bigger, uglier thing.


----------



## Jag

I thought those points were made pretty clear, though, from a number of people. Several people (including me) said they'd had BYB shepherds... but learned exactly what we were trying to tell them. I don't know how else it could have been said. There were more than a couple of "been there, done that" posts. No one should have been offended, but I feel that defensive attitude was already there. Don't know how to fix that case. 

I've had MANY similar discussions with people about breeding their parrots. Once some people have the idea that you're trying to say "I'm better than you" they just won't let that go. No matter how many times you say it's not about that at all. I know back when I got my first shepherd I would have felt the same way. I wasn't looking to do any trials or anything with him, so I didn't feel the need to search out a 'reputable' breeder. I just didn't realize at the time that's not what it's about. Maybe you just have to get there on your own sometimes, I don't know. It's frustrating, though... watching more and more shepherds plagued with health problems and aggression problems because of poor breeding.


----------



## PatchonGSD

*Kinda sad that all this useful information posted by knowledgeable people against BYB's will most likely go to waste because its all being posted under a thread called "The price of a companion puppy." *


----------



## Blanketback

And then it gets back to - just because you have a kennel name doesn't mean that you're producing proper GSDs. I do think that it's disgusting that there's thousands in need of a forever home, and I'm certain that BYBs contribute to the shelter overpopulation. But then that gets back to - why are we importing homeless dogs? Maybe some of the wonderful GSDs could be rehomed if that wasn't happening? IDK.


----------



## msvette2u

Jag said:


> I've had MANY similar discussions with people about breeding their parrots. Once some people have the idea that you're trying to say "I'm better than you" they just won't let that go.



Oh hey. Yeah.

Exploding Parrot Population in U.S. will Cause Crisis, Predicts National Best Friends Animal Society

This is really about people's selfishness. This whole entire situation -from birds to dogs, to whatever, really. There's huge injustices in the animal world. We can only pray some of it gets through :thumbup:

We can't _not_ educate folks. If people take what we're saying (birds, dogs, cats, whatever) as an offense, I just don't think they are openminded enough (yet??) to realize what is going on, the "big picture", as chelle said.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Bubbles said:


> Lol if we all bought puppies from breeders. The ones accidentally born to byb or the dogs in pounds would never get a home.
> 
> No bubbles was not an impulse buy. I was planning on buying a beagle from a breeder but I saw bubbles on craigslist . I fell in love with her picture. Not the price. The beagle was 600$ . I have money for a breeder puppy but sometimes it isn't about money or good breeding. Its about getting the right puppy for you. Bubbles happened to be the right puppy. She has never cried even on the ride home. She's perfect ! She also thinks I'm the perfect chew toy . So its a match beyond anyone's beliefs or morals of what someone should do on buying a puppy. Sometimes you will miss a great thing if you don't look with an open heart and mind .
> 
> some of the best dogs might have health problems. 3 legs, 1 eye, blind , deaf , hip dysplasia a little extra to love and care for.



I can't wait to see if you still have Bubbles 8 months from now when she is a 65 lb dog and possibly fearful aggressive or starting to have hip problems.


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## x0emiroxy0x

BMWHillbilly said:


> I agree Bubbles. I don't have 2500.00 to spend on a dog. I don't have penis envy and the need to boast about how much my dog cost or what registered lineage it came from. I also have certain restrictions on bringing a new "pet" in my home. I need a puppy as I have cats and 3 adult dogs already. No shelter has a GSD pup available, get real. I don't breed, show, etc. I want a GSD as a pet and companion. I know the person i'm getting my pup from. They are happy ,healthy pups and as a bonus happen to be OFA certified which honestly I didn't know at the time I aksed for a pup. Yall may consider her a BYB but who cares! I certainly dont and that doesn't mean her pups are any lesser value or a better breed than yours!


A year from now, when you and Bubbles have surrendered your dogs to the pound or had them euthanized because they are aggressive and sick, we will welcome you back and give you the same advice as was given in this thread.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Bubbles said:


> like I said bubbles is a companion. She isn't competing in anything. She is my partner to do stuff with. pet smart insurance told me I am to take bubbles every 6 months to the vet. So if something does come up there is preventative care. I don't remember who said they only took their dog 3 times in the life of their dog to a vet. you need to do it more often. Every time my cat sneezes I rush him to the vet just in case.
> 
> Bubbles will be my only dog. I have bad knees the older I get the worse it gets and I won't be able to care for a dog after bubbles. At least I'm able to have my favorite breed of dog next to greyhounds. I really don't care about the lineage or genetics. I just feel lucky to find the right dog


If you are talking about Banfield inside of Petsmart, it is a scam, just like BYBs. If you signed the contract, you are stuck with them for a year. The only way to get out of it is send them a written letter cancelling your account within one week of the day it renews.


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## Odin24

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I can't wait to see if you still have Bubbles 8 months from now when she is a 65 lb dog and possibly fearful aggressive or starting to have hip problems.


Oh really. So your saying only dogs not from 'reputable' breeders suffer from these maladies. I'll take it upon myself to inform you that your very, very wrong. My very well bred, from the proper lines, from health tested parents, SCH3 dogs was a health nightmare. The $2000 dog cost me over $15,000 to keep alive for the 11.5 years I owned it. Doggy Daddy was VA7 at the German Sieger show. Get real.


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## BMWHillbilly

x0emiroxy0x said:


> A year from now, when you and Bubbles have surrendered your dogs to the pound or had them euthanized because they are aggressive and sick, we will welcome you back and give you the same advice as was given in this thread.


I have backed off this thread so absorb the influx of information and reasoning presented here as to not be so combative. I do appreciate Blanketback's comments and I'm not quoting her verbatim, but to the effect of how things need to be presented and to understand other people's POV. I understand where each and every one of yall are coming from with your comments. I can't agree with all the 'tudes on here ( i can have one too....) but I do understand the "points" presented. So let me get this straight for you. I do not have a randomly bred BYB (whatever that entails) pup. She has pedigree. She is OFA certified. She health checked. I have been around and seen her siblings from previous litters. So to satisfy you that I have a "quality" pup with all the credentials you deem so important, well there you are. She comes from a friend of my family. Family friend is small scale and VERY particular where the pups go. Family friend is well schooled in GSD's beyond your education level. I know what i'm getting but that is not the point. My pup will not be registered. I dont care about all that crap. it doesn't impress me. I want a pet and companion. there are hundreds of BYB dogs/pups that need homes too. Why condemn people that get pups that need good homes too? These BYB (whatever that entails) are going to be around no matter what you say on this forum. It would be nice to have all the mean, bad BYBs that want to make a buck at the expense of a "pedigree" to be eliminated. Who cares if they get a pup that was already BORN and give it a good home? I wouldn't hesitate to give one that didn't meet all the "criteria" a home. Not everyone that gets a GSD wants to extensively train, show, breed, or work. I certainly am not getting my baby girl for all that. They are PETS and family members for most people.


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## onyx'girl

Your family friend doesn't sound like a byb, so not sure why you keep defending your purchase. 
Wish you the best with your pup, whatever you decide to do or not do with her.
For those that do support the breeder who just puts dogs together because they are 'already born' that 'breeder' will have another litter and another and another, and* the breed suffers for it*~this is the point everyone is trying to make!!!.


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## Odin24

They are PETS and family members for most people. 

You are right. That is what the vast majority of people are looking for when the get any animal. Only a small percentage of them will ever go on to do more. The average GSD owner is not looking for or needing a dog bred for SCH, IPO, Mondioring, or other types of competition of this nature. The average GSD owner is not looking to pay the higher prices often associated with dogs bred for this type of activity nor are they prepared to handle the intensity a dog of this breeding may exhibit. What they average GSD owner is looking for in a dog can most generally be found in a dog bred by on of the deemed less reputable "BYB's. Many of these 'BYB's do test for hips, elbows, thyroid, heart. Not all BYBs are puppy mill breeders. They actually care about their animals, do testing, and breed healthy dogs with good temperments for a reasonable price that will meet the needs of the average pet owner. Just because a GSD does not have a SCH title, a KKL rating with a ZW score after it name does not make it an inferior speciman of the breed.


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## Anitsisqua

If they know the breed, do their research, health test and properly place the puppies, they are not a BYB!


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## msvette2u

> Many of these 'BYB's do test for hips, elbows, thyroid, heart.


Then, by definition, they are _not_ a BYB. 

The breeders referred to as a BYB do none of that testing, saying "The dog had a check up and the vet said it was fine". 

What is a Backyard Breeder?

01 Puppy Mills and Backyard Breeders vs Responsible Breeders - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!



> What Does the Term Backyard Breeder Mean?
> 
> Another attempt to define various kinds of breeders results in the term backyard breeder. This term is used to describe people who breed dogs without knowing what they are doing. The motive may be profit, and occasionally someone of this sort will make a tidy profit from turning out puppies without spending the money to provide them with good care.
> 
> More typically they'll produce one litter, find out how expensive, exhausting and heartbreaking it is to breed dogs, and have their female spayed. The American Kennel Club estimated in 1996 that about 70 percent of purebred, AKC-registered puppies were from this source.
> 
> The backyard-bred puppy may make an all right companion dog, if the parents were good companion dogs. Genetic health and temperament problems may be waiting to emerge as the pup matures, since this type of breeder isn't likely to have done the appropriate testing of both parents to make a good genetic pairing. It's completely a gamble as to how things will turn out with a puppy you acquire from this type of breeder.
> 
> You should expect that these pups will have missed early experiences that a responsible and knowledgeable breeder would have provided. It's also likely some things will have been done that were not good for the future temperament of the pups, such as mishandling by children.
> 
> These puppies are probably the cheapest pups to purchase, especially the ones the breeder can't sell at the most profitable "cute" age. Responsible breeders have homes lined up for their puppies in advance. They have acquired reputable credentials on the appropriateness of the parent dogs before breeding, in the form of testing for genetic problems common in their breeds as well as titles or other verification that the dogs are good examples of their breed. As a result, their puppies are in demand. The unprepared, uninformed person who decides to give breeding a try is surprised to find there's no demand for carelessly bred pups, especially at high prices.
> 
> Without care for making good genetic matches between purebred dogs, it's the nature of breeding for the healthiness of the breed to deteriorate. Only a strenuous effort to maintain good health in the breed prevents this natural effect. In the wild, survival of the fittest works to preserve a species. Unlike wild canines, dogs who live with people don't have to be able to hunt for their food, and they can live with severe disabilities.
> 
> As a result, there is no survival of the fittest among purebred dogs unless breeders make responsible decisions to remove the less fit from the gene pool. Unlike nature wherein these dogs would die, in our homes they only need be spayed and neutered and then live out happy lives with loving people.


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## Jack's Dad

Odin24 said:


> They are PETS and family members for most people.
> 
> You are right. That is what the vast majority of people are looking for when the get any animal. Only a small percentage of them will ever go on to do more. The average GSD owner is not looking for or needing a dog bred for SCH, IPO, Mondioring, or other types of competition of this nature. The average GSD owner is not looking to pay the higher prices often associated with dogs bred for this type of activity nor are they prepared to handle the intensity a dog of this breeding may exhibit. What they average GSD owner is looking for in a dog can most generally be found in a dog bred by on of the deemed less reputable "BYB's. Many of these 'BYB's do test for hips, elbows, thyroid, heart. Not all BYBs are puppy mill breeders. They actually care about their animals, do testing, and breed healthy dogs with good temperments for a reasonable price that will meet the needs of the average pet owner. Just because a GSD does not have a SCH title, a KKL rating with a ZW score after it name does not make it an inferior speciman of the breed.


This is probably the making of a new thread.

What I don't like about these threads is that eveyrone is not operating from the same definition of terms.

If 100 people are viewing this thread then there are many different visions in our minds about BYB. Reputable Breeders, Puppy mills etc...
Odin is right in that there are breeders that have SCH titled, health tested dogs that go back many generations. 
Some of the dogs from those breeder you could not give me.
Has no one seen video of dogs that can barely walk and are afraid of their own shadow at SCH trials.
Those dogs do not come from some crappy run down place.
Some of the kennels are better than some folks homes.

So until everyone can agree that when BYB is mentioned (not just a few opinions) and we all have the same picture in our heads,then these topics are very difficult to discuss.

Reputable Breeder to one person does not equal the same picture in another and so on.


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## Sunflowers

BMWHillbilly said:


> Who cares if they get a pup that was already BORN and give it a good home?



Then there will be another litter BORN, then another, then another and another. 

No supply means no demand. As long as some are BORN, this continues.
That is why there are some of us who do care.


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## robk

This thread is long and crazy. The price of a dog is only relevant in that it is a function of supply and demand. There are an abundance of lower quality dogs on the market and the price of them reflect that fact. A companion dog should be of no less quality than any other working designated German Shepherd. They should be bred to breed standard. To me it is not relevant whether the dogs are bred by a small hobby breeder or a large kennel. If the dogs are of correct quality they should make both a good working dog and a good companion dog. In my area a quality bred GSD sells for between 700 and 1500 dollars. The actual transaction price of each pup is not that important.


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## vickip9

PatchonGSD said:


> opcorn:


 
:thumbup:


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## DollBaby

x0emiroxy0x said:


> A year from now, when you and Bubbles have surrendered your dogs to the pound or had them euthanized because they are aggressive and sick, we will welcome you back and give you the same advice as was given in this thread.


XO - that's just wrong!


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## BMWHillbilly

onyx'girl said:


> Your family friend doesn't sound like a byb, so not sure why you keep defending your purchase.
> Wish you the best with your pup, whatever you decide to do or not do with her.
> For those that do support the breeder who just puts dogs together because they are 'already born' that 'breeder' will have another litter and another and another, and* the breed suffers for it*~this is the point everyone is trying to make!!!.


Thank you Onyx. I appreciate the sentiment. 

I'm not trying to defend my purchase necessarily but I am trying to show that not all people that want a GSD go through the lengths that some do on here. I can appreciate what most serious GSD owners that jump through hoops to find the "right" pup for them. I understand the nature of the "already born" could breed at some point and perpetuate the problem. Most people are not going to go through that process just for a GSD pup! It is sad but I would have never known the seriousness of the GSD breed and their genetics until I came to this forum. I'm an average Jane that likes forums that are of interest to me. I searched out of the excitement of my new pup and I joined this forum to share. I may have come across combative but I felt like a few of us newbies got really pounced on for buying a BYB dog. We are just average people looking for a pet and love the GSD. Most people that get a dog get it for a pet and any specific breed that strikes their fancy. I have a Lab and a Lab mix rescue.


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## Freestep

Odin24 said:


> The average GSD owner is not looking for or needing a dog bred for SCH, IPO, Mondioring, or other types of competition of this nature.


But they generally do want a nice dog that doesn't bite people and is reasonably healthy. A BYB does nothing to ensure this. Good breeders take health and temperament into consideration so that they produce a stable, solid, healthy animal that has strong enough nerves to fit into any active family. Plus, the breeder takes great pains to ensure that the right pup is matched to the right household. BYBs take two dogs that look like GSDs and breed them, regardless of temperament and health, and will sell to anyone who has the money.



BMWHillbilly said:


> there are hundreds of BYB dogs/pups that need homes too. Why condemn people that get pups that need good homes too? These BYB (whatever that entails) are going to be around no matter what you say on this forum. It would be nice to have all the mean, bad BYBs that want to make a buck at the expense of a "pedigree" to be eliminated. Who cares if they get a pup that was already BORN and give it a good home?


Because once you hand money over to a BYB, it only encourages them to breed more, and more, and more. By buying from a BYB, you keep them in business. This should be easy to understand: If you don't like or agree with a business or organization, don't give them money.


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## Anitsisqua

BMW, It's not the buying of the BYB pup that gets most people here frustrated. Most of us have done it. I have, to my eternal shame and regret.

Most of us have just seen the error of our ways and want to make others see our mistakes and not perpetuate the BYB business.

I would never tell someone their dog mattered less than mine because of where it came from. What's done is done and we make the most of it and love on that dog. I just don't want someone to encourage a BYB with their money *in the future*.


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## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> I think some of these threads are way beyond what the public cares about.
> 
> The buyers aren't bad people with a goal of creating an overpopulation of dogs.


You're right--the average person simply doesn't know any better, they aren't aware of the ethical issues that surround buying from a BYB, nor do they understand that there's a right way and a wrong way to breed dogs and that there are consequences. This is why we're trying educate. We finally did get through to people about pet shop puppies and puppymills, now we just have to work on the rest of the problem and educate people about the difference between a BYB and a responsible breeder.


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## x0emiroxy0x

BMWHillbilly said:


> I have backed off this thread so absorb the influx of information and reasoning presented here as to not be so combative. I do appreciate Blanketback's comments and I'm not quoting her verbatim, but to the effect of how things need to be presented and to understand other people's POV. I understand where each and every one of yall are coming from with your comments. I can't agree with all the 'tudes on here ( i can have one too....) but I do understand the "points" presented. So let me get this straight for you. I do not have a randomly bred BYB (whatever that entails) pup. She has pedigree. She is OFA certified. She health checked. I have been around and seen her siblings from previous litters. So to satisfy you that I have a "quality" pup with all the credentials you deem so important, well there you are. She comes from a friend of my family. Family friend is small scale and VERY particular where the pups go. Family friend is well schooled in GSD's beyond your education level. I know what i'm getting but that is not the point. My pup will not be registered. I dont care about all that crap. it doesn't impress me. I want a pet and companion. there are hundreds of BYB dogs/pups that need homes too. Why condemn people that get pups that need good homes too? These BYB (whatever that entails) are going to be around no matter what you say on this forum. It would be nice to have all the mean, bad BYBs that want to make a buck at the expense of a "pedigree" to be eliminated. Who cares if they get a pup that was already BORN and give it a good home? I wouldn't hesitate to give one that didn't meet all the "criteria" a home. Not everyone that gets a GSD wants to extensively train, show, breed, or work. I certainly am not getting my baby girl for all that. They are PETS and family members for most people.




Well before you attack someone you have never spoken with on this board, I think it is important that you know my dog is from a backyard breeder :wild:

How is your puppy OFA certified and health checked? Or were you saying puppy, but talking about your adult dog? How old is your dog? 

I have personal experience in the agonies of having a BYB dog and that is why I think people who intentionally purchase from someone they know is a BYB because of the price is not a good person. 

I am assuming you have a puppy, like Bubbles, and the fear/agressive/health problems have yet to pop up. They usually show between 9 months and 2 years as the dog develops. Since this is a *genetic* problem, that is why BYB are bad.


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## BMWHillbilly

Anitsisqua said:


> .....I have, to my eternal shame and regret.....


 
I understand what you are saying but you know what?....you also gave a "flawed" pup a good home. 

Maybe I'm just too sentimental and think about the poor pups that are born "flawed" through no fault of their own and continue to be so. They are GSD's too and I wish all could be adopted and spayed/neutered.


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## Blanketback

Odin24, thank you so much for your post. It was a refreshing read! And DollBaby, you're very right. This is an example of the 'tude that made me enter the fray, I think at around post #150 or so, lol? I guess XO has me on ignore, and chelle as well - seeing as she quoted me, but it didn't register. Or maybe some people only read the posts that they want to disagree with? Who knows.

All I know is that I used to get very excited when someone would approach me (because I usually have a GSD with me) and tell me that they used to be a breeder of GSDs. Wow, I thought - tell me things! Nowadays my attitude is more of a 'prove it' tell me something I don't know, and BTW I know very little. Oh, but as far as reproduction goes - yes, I learned all about that with my guppies when I was 7.

But I'm tired of people thinking they have a 'better' GSD simply because it came from a breeder, when I know for a fact that these breeders (at least in my area) don't care if they're reproducing genetic faults. Give me a BYB GSD any day over the GSD that comes with the kennel name and EPI down the road. Not really - I'll be doing my homework!!

And that train of thought could possibly add to the overpopulation of GSDs. Just as the great abundance of GSDs in shelters could be attributed to the fact that many people would prefer a dog with a Lab's temperament but prefer the looks of a GSD.


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## x0emiroxy0x

DollBaby said:


> XO - that's just wrong!


DollBaby-- Unfortunately, it isn't wrong. Volunteer at a shelter and see how many aggressive/fearful german shepherds are handed over because their owners can't handle them. These aren't well bred german shepherds. These are washed out, mixed looking obviously poor bred GSDs.

Of course, even with reputable breeders, there is a chance that the pup will not be healthy or have aggressive issues.


(I'm making these percentages up from what I have read on this board)
But BYB chanceof aggressive/health problem dog= 85%
Reputable chance= 5%

I have never read a thread on here that says "Hey I just bought a 2000$ gsd from _____ kennel and the parents were sch3 and OFA excellent but he bit my child today" but I have read MANY (including my own!) that say "My gsd suddenly showed aggression out of nowhere.What do I do? I got him from a breeder but can't reach them because of changed phone number/email/etc"


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## x0emiroxy0x

BMWHillbilly said:


> I understand what you are saying but you know what?....you also gave a "flawed" pup a good home.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too sentimental and think about the poor pups that are born "flawed" through no fault of their own and continue to be so. They are GSD's too and I wish all could be adopted and spayed/neutered.


The best thing for BYB pups is to go to the shelter IMO...they have to be neutered. Do you know how many people buy a 150$ BYB dog so they can breed it to their AKC german shepherd and sell the pups for 200 each?

Go look at the dallas tx craigslist....there are atleast 2 litters of GSD minimum a week, all "AKC registered" but no health tests or titles.


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## msvette2u

On that note...I've seen an ad on our craigslist, where a guy was selling a litter, just before Christmas, asking $200 each. 
He stated, _in the ad_, that the puppies could easily go for $400 each, so you'd still have a $200 per puppy profit from this litter, if you bought it.

Just disgusting :-(


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## Odin24

Freestep said:


> But they generally do want a nice dog that doesn't bite people and is reasonably healthy. A BYB does nothing to ensure this. Good breeders take health and temperament into consideration so that they produce a stable, solid, healthy animal that has strong enough nerves to fit into any active family. Plus, the breeder takes great pains to ensure that the right pup is matched to the right household. BYBs take two dogs that look like GSDs and breed them, regardless of temperament and health, and will sell to anyone who has the money.
> 
> 
> Off topic but, how many breeders take the time to match the puppy to the potential owner. I have bought 4 GSD puppies and only once did the breeder decide who got what puppy. All these dogs were from SCH titled parents and established kennels here in Ohio. Fortunately, all had great temperments. One died of cancer at 4 years and one had ongoing terrible health problems from day one until it was euthanised due to DM at 11.5 years. No screening of me by the breeder, just bring cash.
> 
> I keep reading from posters on this forum about their breeding practices, titled parents, health screenings, all inclusive contracts for everything imagineable (although I can't find these contracts on their websites, so in my opinion, its heresay), matching puppies to the buyers etc. I'm guessing the posters on this forum are not the norm in the real world. So, is everyone else out here really just BYB's too.


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## Blanketback

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I have never read a thread on here that says "Hey I just bought a 2000$ gsd from _____ kennel and the parents were sch3 and OFA excellent but he bit my child today"


Any guesses on just how long that thread would last?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Odin24 said:


> Off topic but, how many breeders take the time to match the puppy to the potential owner. I have bought 4 GSD puppies and only once did the breeder decide who got what puppy. All these dogs were from SCH titled parents and established kennels here in Ohio. Fortunately, all had great temperments. One died of cancer at 4 years and one had ongoing terrible health problems from day one until it was euthanised due to DM at 11.5 years. No screening of me by the breeder, just bring cash.
> 
> I keep reading from posters on this forum about their breeding practices, titled parents, health screenings, all inclusive contracts for everything imagineable (although I can't find these contracts on their websites, so in my opinion, its heresay), matching puppies to the buyers etc. I'm guessing the posters on this forum are not the norm in the real world. So, is everyone else out here really just BYB's too.



Then you had 3 breeders that were not reputable and 1 that was.

Being a reputable breeder doesn't mean you have A B C D but not E. It means you have A B C D AND E

If you would like a list of people who bought dogs with contracts and all the things you listed above, start a new thread and you will have over 30 replies in one day. 

For every 1 reputable breeder website out there, I would guess there are 30-40 BYBs websites that claim they have health checks and put up measly contracts.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Blanketback said:


> Any guesses on just how long that thread would last?



Let me rephrase: I've never seen someone post that their dog came from parents with SCH 3 titles, were OFA excellent, the last 3 generations were titled and OFA excellent, the breeder helped choose the puppy and had health guarantees, etc etc.


I just looked for 30 minutes and found none. I found a few that said the grandparents were titled but not the parents, or the mom was OFA good but the dad didn't have OFA, but no one has posted from a real reputable breeder that did all health checks, no skimping.


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## x0emiroxy0x

PS>>> The reason I am so adamant about not getting a dog from BYB is because I thought my beloved dog from a BYB was going to die today from health problems.

Money really is meaningless...."You pay 200 now, but 2000 later!" doesn't mean anything to me. What is meaningful to me is "You pay 200 now, but 2 years from now your dog that you love dies in your arms from health problems"

I'd rather pay 3000 and have a much better chance of my dog living a long happy life.


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## codmaster

Very true about the definitions often thrown around here.

A "BYB" definetly has a negative connotation about it, BUT what would you call a person who has a nice somewhat titled dog (in something) who researchs a lot for a stud and has their bitch have a litter and they raise the puppies in their house and back yard. BTW they also checked hips/elbows with an xray but did'nt OFA or "a" formally.

BYB or a "small" breeder? Oh yea, they also spend a LOT of time and efort in socializing the puppies so they are well behaved litle puppies?

Opinions on this person?????


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## Jack's Dad

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Well before you attack someone you have never spoken with on this board, I think it is important that you know my dog is from a backyard breeder :wild:
> 
> How is your puppy OFA certified and health checked? Or were you saying puppy, but talking about your adult dog? How old is your dog?
> 
> I have personal experience in the agonies of having a BYB dog and that is why I think people who intentionally purchase from someone they know is a BYB because of the price is not a good person.
> 
> I am assuming you have a puppy, like Bubbles, and the fear/agressive/health problems have yet to pop up. They usually show between 9 months and 2 years as the dog develops. Since this is a *genetic* problem, that is why BYB are bad.


The flaw in your logic is that BYB = health and temperament problems. 
Your version of "reputable breeder = great health and no temperament problems.

You are also not acknowledging all who have had wonderful pets from BYB's, rescues and shelters. No one knows the history or genetics of most dogs from those sources.

So is the choice to get a dog from (someone on the internets standard of reputable breeder) or go to a rescue, shelter.
Because if you, (general you) want a dog with known genetics and health testing etc... You are not going to get that at shelters or rescues.

I want to add that the best dog I have owned up until Jack, was a GSD from an ad near wal-mart. She cost 50 bucks and was a super dog.

So since my experience was different should I promote dogs off of bulletin boards because of a good experience. Of course not.

It just seems that you let your 1 experience cloud your view.


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## codmaster

I have had multiple GSD's - some from top show kennels and a couple from pure "BYB".

The BYB ones were actually healthier overall than the "show" dogs. Just purely medical health not even thinking about temperament.


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## Odin24

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Then you had 3 breeders that were not reputable and 1 that was.
> 
> .


Well, actually, all 4 dogs came form only two breeders so the above statement doesn't apply. I got two from each of them. Breeder #1 screened and matched the puppy to the owner the first time I got a puppy from them. That was the one with the laundry list of health problems. The second pup from them, they kicked someone off the waiting list for that litter so that I could have the half sister to the first pup. Bet those people were happy with that breeder. Breeder was very active in Schutzhund, titled, health checks so they must be 'reputable' according to this forum. Oh, they only honored their contract if you took them to court. Contract had a clause that you had to sue them in the county they resided in which was 5 hours away from where I live. But hey, they met the 'reputable' breeder qualifications so what did I have to worry about there.

The next puppy I bought at the County Fair from a very long time established breeder around here. Dog died of cancer at 4 years. My current puppy is from this breeders German import male, no titles. The hips, elbows, thyroid and heart all checked before breeding though. Mom is from, horror of horrors, an ASL bitch with no working titles with hip and elbows OFA'd. Puppy is gorgeous to look at, wonderful temperment, clean bill of health except for that hernia that has my vet more worried about than I am, and is doing great in Obedience class. And he doesn't eat the 8 show cats that live in my house or bite the young, the elderly, or the infirm. Guess I should go home and tell him he should be dead from poor health or euthanised for bad nerves shortly because we both seem to be unaware of that outlook for his future.


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## Muneraven

The term Backyard Breeder is being used as a pejorative when it shouldn't be. Sometimes people with terrific dogs want to have the experience of raising a litter or two of pups. Is this backyard breeding? If so then my parents were backyard breeders. They had Mitzi, a whipsmart and all around great Cocker Spaniel when I was a kid and they bred her two times to a stud dog that was also an excellent cocker. We got to experience puppies, which was awesome. They didn't do it for money, they did it for the experience and because people in town wanted Mitzi's pups. They gave them away. Then Mitzi was done.

I would add that, after Mitzi, my parents bought a Cocker Spaniel from a "reputable" breeder. Dumbest dog ever. See, "reputable" is problematic because it isn't that hard to doctor up one's reputation. 

My point here is that getting a dog is a crapshoot no matter where you get it because it is a living thing. And all "reputable" breeders don't produce great dogs, all BYBs aren't in it for the money, and some shelter dogs are great and some are quite awful. Too many people are painting with big, broad brushes here.

Two of my dogs are shelter/rescue dogs, one is from a "reputable" Golden Retriever breeder who was talked into breeding Golden Doodles BY HIS VET as a way to make money but then couldn't sell them, and my GSD pup is from a BYB who has two lovely shepherds and wanted to do puppies for the grandkids. They are all lovely dogs, though one of the rescues is overly timid. 

I don't trust "reputable" as far as I can throw it when people are charging thousands of dollars for their puppies. Our next dog, probably in three years, will likely be from a breeder but I am watching three breeders ALREADY to try and check them out personally. People love to talk about their dogs, so given enough lead time, one can find out a LOT about a breeder without counting on some nebulous reputation that can be easily fudged on the Internet.

P.S. The best dog I ever had, one that actually saved my life, was picked up for free out of a little red wagon in a parade and given to me as a gift by two children who knew nothing about dogs. They were told he was a sheltie mix. Turned out to be a 70 pound sheltie mix, lol. Best mutt ever.


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## Freestep

Odin24 said:


> Off topic but, how many breeders take the time to match the puppy to the potential owner. I have bought 4 GSD puppies and only once did the breeder decide who got what puppy. All these dogs were from SCH titled parents and established kennels here in Ohio. Fortunately, all had great temperments. One died of cancer at 4 years and one had ongoing terrible health problems from day one until it was euthanised due to DM at 11.5 years. No screening of me by the breeder, just bring cash.


Sounds like you've been buying from less-than-reputable breeders to me. All my purebred GSDs have been chosen for me by the breeders I got them from.



> I'm guessing the posters on this forum are not the norm in the real world. So, is everyone else out here really just BYB's too.


You're right about that. The majority of breeders in the US are BYBs. The majority of breeders on this forum are reputable, responsible breeders. Sadly, they are not the norm in this world... it's just like anything else, I suppose. People who are top notch at what they do are few and far between, and finding them can be a challenge in the midst of overwhelming medocrity... so much so that we think medocrity is the norm. 

I think we need to educate people that they can do so much better. I think we should raise the bar.


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## Anitsisqua

Muneraven said:


> I would add that, after Mitzi, my parents bought *a Cocker Spaniel *from a "reputable" breeder. Dumbest dog ever.


You were surprised?


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## DollBaby

x0emiroxy0x said:


> DollBaby-- Unfortunately, it isn't wrong. Volunteer at a shelter and see how many aggressive/fearful german shepherds are handed over because their owners can't handle them. These aren't well bred german shepherds. These are washed out, mixed looking obviously poor bred GSDs.
> 
> Of course, even with reputable breeders, there is a chance that the pup will not be healthy or have aggressive issues.
> 
> 
> (I'm making these percentages up from what I have read on this board)
> But BYB chanceof aggressive/health problem dog= 85%
> Reputable chance= 5%
> 
> I have never read a thread on here that says "Hey I just bought a 2000$ gsd from _____ kennel and the parents were sch3 and OFA excellent but he bit my child today" but I have read MANY (including my own!) that say "My gsd suddenly showed aggression out of nowhere.What do I do? I got him from a breeder but can't reach them because of changed phone number/email/etc"


Yes that was wrong. You assume those pups are definaty going to turn out sickly and crazy. BMW already stated this pup is coming from a family friend, that she knows older sound siblings of this breeders mix. ** comment removed by ADMIN** Also, how could you possibly know whether or not I've worked a shelter? Well surprise dingus I've been around them more than you know. I'm on my lunch, typing on a phone but if you'd like to continue this later, I'll dance.


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted by *x0emiroxy0x*
> DollBaby-- Unfortunately, it isn't wrong. Volunteer at a shelter and see how many aggressive/fearful german shepherds are handed over because their owners can't handle them. These aren't well bred german shepherds. These are washed out, mixed looking obviously poor bred GSDs.


As someone who volunteers in GSD rescue, there are many dogs who appear well bred in the shelter. Not all of them are aggressive and fearful. In fact, I would put that in a minority. 

Can I ask where you have volunteered at? I just don't remember you ever mentioning a shelter you've volunteered at and I am curious where you are seeing all these "washed out, mixed looking, GSDs".


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## x0emiroxy0x

Odin24 said:


> Well, actually, all 4 dogs came form only two breeders so the above statement doesn't apply. I got two from each of them. Breeder #1 screened and matched the puppy to the owner the first time I got a puppy from them. That was the one with the laundry list of health problems. The second pup from them, they kicked someone off the waiting list for that litter so that I could have the half sister to the first pup. Bet those people were happy with that breeder. Breeder was very active in Schutzhund, titled, health checks so they must be 'reputable' according to this forum. Oh, they only honored their contract if you took them to court. Contract had a clause that you had to sue them in the county they resided in which was 5 hours away from where I live. But hey, they met the 'reputable' breeder qualifications so what did I have to worry about there.
> 
> I*f that was in the clause, they weren't hiding it. You bought from them knowing this clause.....*
> 
> 
> The next puppy I bought at the County Fair from a very long time established breeder around here. Dog died of cancer at 4 years. My current puppy is from this breeders German import male, no titles. The hips, elbows, thyroid and heart all checked before breeding though. Mom is from, horror of horrors, an ASL bitch with no working titles with hip and elbows OFA'd. Puppy is gorgeous to look at, wonderful temperment, clean bill of health except for that hernia that has my vet more worried about than I am, and is doing great in Obedience class. And he doesn't eat the 8 show cats that live in my house or bite the young, the elderly, or the infirm. Guess I should go home and tell him he should be dead from poor health or euthanised for bad nerves shortly because we both seem to be unaware of that outlook for his future.


*Well, you can tell him whatever you want but he won't understand because he is a dog....lol. Who said he should be euthanized for bad nerves? I insinuated that people who buy from BYB because they are cheap will most likely euthanize or take to a shelter their aggressive dog because they can't afford to get a trainer.*

"I have bought 4 GSD puppies and only once did the breeder decide who got what puppy."

*So which puppy did you not get to choose and why did the breeder let you choose once and choose the second time? That seems to be a big warning sign.*


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## x0emiroxy0x

Jax08 said:


> As someone who volunteers in GSD rescue, there are many dogs who appear well bred in the shelter. Not all of them are aggressive and fearful. In fact, I would put that in a minority.
> 
> Can I ask where you have volunteered at? I just don't remember you ever mentioning a shelter you've volunteered at and I am curious where you are seeing all these "washed out, mixed looking, GSDs".


San Marcos Animal Shelter. Not a rescue. We have a very poor minority that makes up about 50% of the town. Also, people from San Antonio drops their dogs with us because we are the only non-euthanizing shelter for quite some distance. Take a look at our website---I think we have one purebred dog a month come in.

One thing I have noticed with the really bad BYBs is that they are very low income....they have no website, no AKC papers....just the mom and dad onsite to "prove" your dog's breed. We have SO many of these here. Also college students trying to make an extra buck.

In Sugarland, my hometown, the dogs in the shelter go really fast because most of them are 1500-2000$ dogs that the family just got tired of taking care of, not that they couldn't afford it. If you want a german shepherd with good bloodlines, start there!


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## x0emiroxy0x

DollBaby said:


> Yes that was wrong. You assume those pups are definaty going to turn out sickly and crazy. BMW already stated this pup is coming from a family friend, that she knows older sound siblings of this breeders mix. A tuly read what's being said before you make an ass out of yourself. Also, how could you possibly know whether or not I've worked a shelter? Well surprise dingus I've been around them more than you know. I'm on my lunch, typing on a phone but if you'd like to continue this later, I'll dance.


Yes. Please continue later when you are not on your phone and can insult me while spelling correctly.


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## Blanketback

Just so you know, when you enlarge the font as you have, the text seem to 'swim' on the page, due to my vision imparement. It's unfortunate, because I have to avoid reading your post or risk a massive headache.


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## Jax08

x0emiroxy0x said:


> San Marcos Animal Shelter. Not a rescue. We have a very poor minority that makes up about 50% of the town. Also, people from San Antonio drops their dogs with us because we are the only non-euthanizing shelter for quite some distance. Take a look at our website---I think we have one purebred dog a month come in.
> 
> ...
> 
> In Sugarland, my hometown, the dogs in the shelter go really fast because most of them are 1500-2000$ dogs that the family just got tired of taking care of, not that they couldn't afford it. If you want a german shepherd with good bloodlines, start there!


So you are not getting purebred dogs in to your shelter. I have seen, and pulled, beautiful dogs that appear to be well bred. The rescues I"ve worked with have pages full of great dogs. One dog I'm working with right now at a local shelter appears to be of east german. He has drive, nice build, beautiful. I don't think you can make a general statement saying the dogs are aggressive/fearful and mixed on all GSD's coming into a shelter based on your experience especially when your next paragraph says differently.


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## DollBaby

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Yes. Please continue later when you are not on your phone and can insult me while spelling correctly.


Yes I insulted you. Not a nice feeling is it. Now consider the feelings of those you insulted. It was uncalled for


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## mebully21

to the OP- if you truly want a great companion dog then go for an adult dog- temperment is set as an adult, what you see is what you get. health wise, you can take an adult dog to the vet for hip xrays etc and you can see if the dog is healthy. puppies are a crap shoo- it, some can grow up dog aggressive some can have issues, and others can grow up fine with no issues.. to be really sure you should really think about an adult dog- whether a retired breeder dog or a adult dog from a rescue - its something to consider. ( i have done the puppy route numerous times and the adult dog route- and i really prefer the adult dog route as once the dog is mature you really see what they are all about- nothing hidden, just flat out here is what the dog is about....) and you can get a great breeder dog that is retired from breeding or a great adult dog from a rescue.... its just something to consider since you are looking for a companion pet dog.


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## Odin24

*Well, you can tell him whatever you want but he won't understand because he is a dog....lol. Who said he should be euthanized for bad nerves? I insinuated that people who buy from BYB because they are cheap will most likely euthanize or take to a shelter their aggressive dog because they can't afford to get a trainer.*

You're implying that all dogs from BYB's are aggressive. I doubt that is the truth. Based on the standards of what a reputable breeder is in this forums opinion, all my dogs must have come from BYB's. In my area, you had better sign up for an obedience class quickly or you won't get in (and I'm not talking about Petco or Petsmart training). The demand for them far exceeds the availablility. Since few breeders meet the 'reputable' qualification, those owners with the BYB dogs are standing in line for training classes around here. Looks like they can afford a trainer for their poorly bred, aggressive dogs. So far, not one of these dogs I've been in class with has been aggressive, evely those dreadful bully breeds.


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## BMWHillbilly

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Well before you attack someone you have never spoken with on this board, ......
> 
> you're kidding, right? I didn't attack or direct any post to you. You commented to ME and i responded to your insulting and assumptious death wish regarding my puppy. See reminder below in RED...
> 
> 
> 
> x0emiroxy0x said:
> 
> 
> 
> A year from now, when you and Bubbles have surrendered your dogs to the pound or had them euthanized because they are aggressive and sick, we will welcome you back and give you the same advice as was given in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am assuming you have a puppy, like Bubbles, and the fear/agressive/health problems have yet to pop up. They usually show between 9 months and 2 years as the dog develops. Since this is a *genetic* problem, that is why BYB are bad.
Click to expand...

You are assuming. You don't know what will happen. ANY dog can have issues later in life be it 4 months through 4 years through 12 years. I really think its crazy for you to stand here and state for certainty that this will happen to mine or Bubbles dog. I have tried to chill about this thread and have taken the high road to try and understand why and what posters are trying to say but when someone directly attacks/wishes death on of my beloved pets...it's ON!


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## Freestep

Muneraven said:


> "reputable" is problematic because it isn't that hard to doctor up one's reputation.


You have a point there, some of the semantics are problematic because "reputable" implies a breeder's reputation, which as you said is not hard to hype, especially now with the Internet. Perhaps "ethical" or "responsible" would be better terms.



Odin24 said:


> Breeder was very active in Schutzhund, titled, health checks so they must be 'reputable' according to this forum. Oh, they only honored their contract if you took them to court. .


That doesn't sound "reputable", or ethical, or responsible to me. Believe it or not, there are breeders that appear to be doing all the right things, but that does not necessarily make them ethical or responsible. This is why, if you're looking for a breeder, you need to get recommendations from people you trust, contact several breeders, talk to them and get a feel for what their goals and ethics are. Are they breeding for the right reasons? 



codmaster said:


> A "BYB" definetly has a negative connotation about it, BUT what would you call a person who has a nice somewhat titled dog (in something) who researchs a lot for a stud and has their bitch have a litter and they raise the puppies in their house and back yard. BTW they also checked hips/elbows with an xray but did'nt OFA or "a" formally.
> 
> BYB or a "small" breeder? Oh yea, they also spend a LOT of time and efort in socializing the puppies so they are well behaved litle puppies?
> 
> Opinions on this person?????


"Backyard Breeder" is actually another problematic term: even the best breeders usually have a back yard where dogs and puppies play, so in technical terms everyone is a "backyard breeder" unless they raise their puppies inside a facility off the property. It seems like there should be a better term for BYB, but I don't know what it would be. Irresponsible breeder?

Personally, I don't want anyone breeding Cocker Spaniels (or GSDs, or any breed) unless they KNOW the breed. Certain bloodlines within the breed may be fine in and of themselves, but when crossed, can cause genetic issues such as disease, temperament flaws, etc. Now, I am hardly an expert in Cockers, but I know that is another breed that is rife with genetic disease and temperament problems. I put the blame on BYBs--for a while there, everyone and his uncle were breeding Cockers and, with a few notable exceptions, every Cocker I saw in the vet clinic and the grooming salon was a horrible, hot mess. Skin problems, ear problems, eye problems, and severe temperament issues, to the point where we'd get the muzzle handy every time a Cocker was coming in.

This was in the 90's--things seem to have improved somewhat, as I no longer find myself dreading Cockers when they come to my grooming shop. Anyway, the point is, the people who were breeding their little Muffy thought she was a nice dog, no health problems, let's say they even test for health problems. And then there's Buffy, a nice male Cocker from down the street, nice temperament and no health problems, they say "What the heck! Let's breed 'em! They're both nice, healthy dogs, our kids will get to witness the miracle of life, and we'll make a little extra money too!" Wow, why doesn't everyone do this?

What these nice, well-meaning folks DON'T know, because they don't understand the breed, is that both Muffy and Buffy have the same great-great-parents on both sides. That in itself might not be a big deal, except those great-great-grandparents were known in the Cocker community as passing along the gene for--let's say--Cushing's Disease, a common malady in Cockers, and both Muffy and Buffy carry the gene. Because Muffy and Buffy do not have the disease themselves, their owners have no idea they could pass it along, and because they don't know the breed, they have no idea that the ancestors in the dogs' pedigrees were known carriers.

So, they breed the litter, everything seems hunky-dory, so they breed another one, and then decide enough is enough and get Muffy spayed. Responsible, right?

As it turns out, half of each litter was affected with Cushing's disease, and they become afflicted by the age of 3. In addition, many of these puppies grow up to have chronic ear infections, cherry eyes, allergies and skin conditions. One of them bit the family's toddler son, and another one bit the mailman.

How is this possible?? Muffy and Buffy were both such good dogs, with no problems, how is it possible their offspring would be so unhealthy and mean? Well, let's say the owners both log onto the Cockerworld.com (I just made that up) forum, where, much to their horror, they discover the simple mistake they made when breeding their Cockers--they were inbred on dogs known to carry genetic disease.

What is my opinion on these folks? Well, they tried to do everything right, but unfortunately they were not educated enough in the breed to avoid a simple breeding mistake. This, to me, puts them in the "BYB" category. They didn't know what they were doing and they didn't RESEARCH. Nice folks, but shouldn't be dog breeders unless they take the time and effort to study, research and learn about their breed, and breeding/genetics in general.

Please note that this entire thing is hypothetical, I don't know much about Cockers and I don't know if Cushing's disease is a simple recessive gene (or whether you can test for it). I'm just making a point about what separates responsible breeding from BYB.


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## lhczth

This thread has unfortunately gotten very nasty and is no longer serving any purpose. Time for it to be locked. 

ADMIN Lisa


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