# GREAT NEWS from CRUFTS!!! Wish AKC would follow



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks - The Kennel Club

*Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks *

08-Mar-12


No dog representing the Pekingese and Bulldog breeds will compete in Thursday evening’s Best in Group competitions at Crufts after they failed the new veterinary checks that have been introduced to the show.

The Best of Breed award was not given to Pekingese, Palacegarden Bianca, or Bulldog, Mellowmood One In A Million, following their veterinary checks, which were carried out by an independent veterinary surgeon. This means that the dogs will not be allowed to continue into the Toy or Utility Best in Group competitions respectively.

The Kennel Club has introduced veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners at all Kennel Club licensed General and Group Championship Dog Shows from Crufts 2012 onwards, in 15 designated high profile breeds. This measure was introduced to ensure that Best of Breed awards are not given to any dogs that show visible signs of problems due to conditions that affect their health or welfare.

*The fifteen high profile breeds are as follows: Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested.*

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: “We are determined to ensure that the show ring is a positive force for change and that we help to move breeds forward by only rewarding the healthiest examples of a breed.

“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”

Bet this is out of the response from the BBC Special


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This is great!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

It only makes sense that the Best of Breed should also be able to pass a vet check. Actually any dog being bred should be able to pass, but I guess the shows are so big it's only possible to test certain ones.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

That's great news! Now, if only that applied here, as well!


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## Schatzi's Dad (Feb 6, 2012)

Excellent news!


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Wonderful! Hope this is a sign of big changes coming.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Interesting. The top ranks of the show world are getting completely out of hand. I heard the Collie that won his breed at Westminster was sired by a blind and deaf double-merle.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't think this is so great. Is it a group of vets making this important decision, or one vet? How do they insure the decision isn't made by someone who has an "agenda"? Don't hold your breath, GSDs are one of the target breeds.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

DunRingill said:


> I don't think this is so great. Is it a group of vets making this important decision, or one vet? How do they insure the decision isn't made by someone who has an "agenda"? Don't hold your breath, GSDs are one of the target breeds.


I think it health AND looks are being considered it's only good for the breeds. ALL breeds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What are they comparing "health" too? Are they taking the breed standard and looking for extremes of that to determine what is healthy? I think if there are strict standards they are adhering too, then this is a good decision.

Or are they looking at what is healthy overall? If this is the case, no flat faced breed is ever going to pass.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why isn't Pug on there?? Pug Stories - Index
Pugs are famous for having hip dysplasia (proving it's not about the "slanted backs" of GSDs) and breathing problems. 
We have a foster Pug right now whose palette is going to limit where he can be adopted to (lower temps are critical)


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The Pug is listed on there.. Right before the Chinese Crested.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> The Pug is listed on there.. Right before the Chinese Crested.


OH I see it now  I just glanced over it before!

I'm curious too, if the vets are judging the dog's "health" on it's own merit or compared to less extreme examples of the breed they are representing. 

It's easy to see some of them with their breathing issues and entropions and what not, which stand out literally staring you in the face, but with others it might not be so obvious?
I wonder what it is about Chinese Cresteds that's unhealthy?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Anybody see what the "vet checks" were that the dogs were subject to?

BTW, that film did not show even a typical US show line dog. Much too roached back for that.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That is a legitimate concern. Vets are not above politics, pressure and money either. 




DunRingill said:


> I don't think this is so great. Is it a group of vets making this important decision, or one vet? How do they insure the decision isn't made by someone who has an "agenda"? Don't hold your breath, GSDs are one of the target breeds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What is a "vet check"? A once-over by a vet isn't going to rule in or out most of the things that plague our breed.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

And if they really want to make a difference, why aren't they checking all of the entries in the show. Not just the BOB winners.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was reading a website yesterday about HD in german shepherds. Someone who appears to have put together quite a bit of research.

Based on some of the information and reasoning I found there I don't think the true will necessary is there to change the dynamics which created the health problems in the GSD and other breeds.

Too many people are too invested (emotionally and monitarily) to embark on the culling the would be required to right what is wrong.

Ilda has HD but _none_ in her pedigree going back many generations. 

Her grandsire, Zamp Vom Thermodos died a bit to young for a GSDat 8 years old IMO and I've still not been able to find an official statement on the cause of death**

I share this as an example of the issues our breed faces and it's not the dogs who have the deepest problems. 

(** *please* if I'm wrong and have not seen the official statement but it's out there please PM comments to me as an error of unintentional ommission, I don't mean to start a fight or take this thread off track)


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I hope it is a panel of vets following a very specific, rigorous guideline with more quantitative than qualitative criteria. One vet saying "looks healthy" with a couple qualitative criteria is pretty risky, I'd worry about corruption there.

That said this is definitely a step in the right direction, and I'm hoping that apart from expanding to ALL breeds and ALL competing dogs, that other shows pick this up, too.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

For those of you who are for this -- what criteria would you use for the vet exam. Keep in mind that the exam is being conducted at a dog show, not a vet's office.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

The Kennel Club actually posted THIS information on what they are looking for when doing a Vet Check. They are looking for obvious signs of:

The clinical signs include:

Lameness – including ‘hopping’
Inappropriate temperament whether this is excessive timidity or aggression
A discharge from one or both eyes or any signs of discomfort in either eye especially if associated with poor eyelid conformation
Obvious breathing difficulty
Obvious skin or ear irritation or inflammation
Here is the Link to the site. There are also some PDFs with more detailed info.

High Profile Best of Breed Veterinary Checks - FAQs - The Kennel Club


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Veterinary Health Checks for High Profile Breeds - Veterinary Surgeon Information:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/12708/SH102HPvetsurgeoninfo.pdf



> Affected Breeds
> Each breed has specific conditions of concern and these can be grouped largely into conditions
> causing:
> 
> ...


Interesting! So they will indeed be checking for "froggy" dogs.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

I think its great that health and breeding issues are heading in the right direction. The bottom line to me is the animals not ribbons and points or titles. I think every dog should have to pass on entry into every show. Its not just dogs, its horses, cats, birds...etc..

Definitely a great beginning.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

I do think that a program like this IS a good idea as long as there is not a possibility of politics playing a roll. Even if a dog is concidered a "champion", it doesn't mean that the dog's genes _should_ be passed on. People want puppies from "champions", but what if those dogs have obvious genetic problems?
I had a client who purchased a Golden Retriever puppy that was the son of a Champion. The sire had won a bunch of medals for best of breed, and so did the dam. Her dog died from a congenital heart defect at the age of 3 yrs and 7 months. She paid _a lot_ of money for this dog. When she contacted the breeder after the necropsy, the breeder informed her that out of the 9 puppies, only ONE was still living, the rest had died from the same defect. This defect took the life of the dog's grandfather and several of his siblings but because they were "champions", they were bred without taking into account what the outcome of those breedings would be. These were supposed to be very high end show dogs. 
There is several things wrong with this breeder and the situation but this was just one of them. 

When I started looking for a puppy, I had a list of 11 possibles. After phone interviews, medical records, visits to the facility, I was able to narrow it down to just 1 that fit all of my criteria. I wanted to make sure that I was going to get the best of the best but there are still no guarantees. I am ok with that because I know I did my due dilligence. I will accept the "unknown" because it am well informed. I won't be able to blame the breeder as I made the decision to receive one of her dogs (and they ARE awesome! lol)


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

I think politics would be difficult to play a role, but possibly an appeal should be warranted if you believe your dog completely healthy and can back it up. I would imagine the reason for disqualification would have to be well documented..Not just a vet sayin yep or nah....

I also think the owner will have a hard time breeding the lines of the defective dog so...in the future it may really help.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly I think it's a waste of time. For one, who is dumb enough to enter a lame dog in a huge show and actually put the dog in the ring? Second, for anyone that does pull something like that, the judge can just excuse them (I've seen this happen at smaller shows, people cry panno or whatever but if the judge thinks there's a problem they have every right to excuse the dog).

Off the top of my head the big health issues with our breed are things like HD, mega-E, DM, severe allergies, major digestive issues....none of these things can be identified during a simple exam.

Cow hocks, steep croup, extreme rear, etc are not any kind of crippling disorder. The degree to which they are excepted is a matter of taste, which again can be _evaluated as part of the conformation in the ring by the judge_!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I heard the Mastiff was DQ'd this morning, as well as the Clumber Spaniel.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

and also, AKC has said they will NEVER do this.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It sounds like the vet might be on a power trip???


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

"Froggy dogs" means nothing to the overall health of the dog......
There are many "froggy dogs" that are OFA Good or better.....conformation is simply conformation.....nothing more.
Lame, sick or *apparently un-healthy or shy, timid dogs" are supposed to be dismissed anyway.
This is not a step forward....it actually can be a step backwards, adding to the complete mis-educated thinking that over angulated dogs have and are dysplastic, or have "spine" problems.....a little bit of "wrong knowledge" is just as detrimental if not more...to a breed.
Judges simply need to NOT award championships to dogs that are extreme in structure.....period.....simple resolution for the masses.
Cow-hocked is not an ILLNESS....it is simply a structural *fault*....nothing more.

_I need to stay away from topics like this......it causes me to become argumentative....and insults normal breed intelligence._


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Yes, sure does sound like a power trip to me! 

There's a huge difference between a dog that is lame or sick, and a dog of whose structure you don't approve. I suspect the latter are the targets, rather than the former.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

OK I'm now hearing it was the neo mastiff, not the mastiff that was DQ'd.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Love it!

So the breeder 'lying' has begun! You listen to her and her dog only has a red eye from running around in the heat (btw, when my dogs run around in the heat their one eye doesn't go red). When the FACT IS the Clumbers are KNOWN for eye issues that are genetic and structurally related!!!! With him a top winner he's just passing on eye issues that need surgery to correct!





 
http://www.clumbers.org/AboutClumbers/Report_Survey.php



> Twenty one dogs indicated no disease history. The majority of these were young dogs at the time of the response. *Eyelid problems were the most frequently reported condition*, with 38 dogs. Males and females were evenly represented. Allergies were reported for 24 dogs, and ear infections for 23. Many dogs reported multiple conditions. Twenty dogs with hip dysplasia were reported and fifteen cases of intervertebral disc disease (cervical and/or thoracolumbar).


http://www.petmedsonline.org/dog-breed-health-clumber-cocker-spaniel.html



> *Eyes:*
> *Absent Tear Drainage
> **Droopy Lower Lids (Ectropion)
> Entropion*
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> _I need to stay away from topics like this......it causes me to become argumentative....and insults normal breed intelligence._


No you shouldn't stay away! You give people like me, that have never shown and don't have a clue, a new perspective on the topic!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I think the whole thing is a great idea. If the dog is being shown and bred, why NOT have them pass a test whether it be big or small? Of course, there are many other things that can and will be wrong or carried on by breeding stock in every breed. I think it's a good start, and you have to start somewhere. Breeds have structurally changed so much over the years, if only checks like these would have been in place sooner maybe short faced dogs wouldn't have breathing problems now, etc.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, no surprise there.

Until there is some foundational integrity in the testing that is done to clear animals for breeding (prior to having a bunch of titles/wins) this is going to be one huge uphill battle.

The problem is people who are so invested in their breeding/dogs *believe* their own lies.

Since dogs, for the most part, are not used for utilitarian purposes thereby having to prove their worth AND durability there's no real way to prove healthy longevity either. Problems that crop up at 6, 7 or more years old in a top dog (especially males) have so many offspring on the ground and thereby more people invested in those lines.... 

I don't know what the answer is, but it's heartbreaking and it affects so many breeds, not just our GSDs. 




MaggieRoseLee said:


> Love it!
> 
> So the breeder 'lying' has begun! You listen to her and her dog only has a red eye from running around in the heat (btw, when my dogs run around in the heat their one eye doesn't go red). When the FACT IS the Clumbers are KNOWN for eye issues that are genetic and structurally related!!!! With him a top winner he's just passing on eye issues that need surgery to correct!
> 
> ...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Crufts Clumber multi Ch Chervood Snowsun best of breed disqualified - YouTube


Geez- this video is like watching This Is Spinal Tap.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*Twenty dogs with Hip Dysplasia were reported and fifteen cases of Intervertabral disc disease (cervical and/or Thoracolumbar).....*

OK....either these owners/handlers had their dogs thrown on an x ray machine..moments prior to or after competing in the ring....or the vet has such advanced, non human x ray vision....to be able to diagnose such hip and spine problems, that the entire rest of the world and professionals need a machine to do.......AMAZING VET.
*come'on......a pinch of knowledge, a dab of good intentions & a cup of power......makes for horrible ingredients to an already complicated recipe.*
_...again...just my opinion..._


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How were the dogs x-rayed to determine HD? A lot of them would have to be sedated (at least according to what my vet told me) to be properly x-rayed wouldn't they?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cod....I don't believe that they actually were.....hence my response.
The "vet" was the one in charge of diagnosing and determining which dogs were healthy...and which dogs weren't.

The hip & spine diagnosis is what I am referring to......no one can absolutely diagnose either problem without proper radio-graphs....and certainly not with the naked eye.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I think it's great. Since many breeds do not have working trials to prove their health and soundness, there has never been any check on health issues in the show ring. That's why we have the extremes in the Bulldog, Peke, Pug, etc that have gone unchecked. The fact is, many traits that have been bred for are purely fashion and are detrimental to the dog, and it will never stop until show breeders are forced to place health as a priority. I've seen GSDs that were wobbly and unstable in the rear--how is that good for anyone? 

I understand the concern about vets falling victim to politics, and that is a real concern. I am sure they will implement some kind of appeal process, as show breeders are going to be hopping mad about this new requirement, and you can be sure they will keen and wail and make excuses for their breeding program. If they can appeal and prove their dog healthy, good for them. If not, tough beans. They should have been breeding for health all along.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Love it!
> 
> So the breeder 'lying' has begun! You listen to her and her dog only has a red eye from running around in the heat (btw, when my dogs run around in the heat their one eye doesn't go red). When the FACT IS the Clumbers are KNOWN for eye issues that are genetic and structurally related!!!! With him a top winner he's just passing on eye issues that need surgery to correct!


Did you watch the video? First, he's a SHE. Second, I saw no evidence of cherry eye. I can't see anything in the video that would make me think OMG that dog has eye problems! 



> Clumber Spaniel Club of America
> 
> 
> Health Disorders In The Cocker Spaniel And Clumber Spaniel, Personality Ratings


I'm not sure why you're quoting these here? It gives people the impression that it's about dogs at Crufts, and neither of these articles are. ????


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

There's a huge difference between checking for sick or lame dogs, and disqualifying dogs where you don't happen to agree with the breed standard. 

Also, if you're going to check dogs, then ALL breeds should be checked.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

It is not the job of a vet to "police" the conformation venues and "choose" which dogs are *in their OPINION* healthy or unhealthy....
It is the job of the judges to choose which dogs SHOULD be awarded championships and which one shouldn't.
It is the BREEDERS JOB to produce as healthy of a dog that they can.......and contrary to much belief....MANY breeders bust their "arses" to do so.
Preferring a "type" of look, does not warrant excuse because of perceived health issues or anything else.......shoot.....it would be the same to dismiss the latter.... (dogs without much angulation) because they are perceived to be "stiff or unable to move" the way some people would like.
UNHEALTHY dogs should not be shown......but for simple things as ear infections or an eye infection....they should not be deemed UNHEALTHY & dogs not warranted for breeding......OMG....that would mean that many, many dogs that have a simple ailment should be banned from the breeding pool......that is plain craziness.

Wobbly, over angulated GSDs does not mean UNHEALTHY dogs......it simply means wobbly, over angulated dogs.

To state the the show breeders are going to hop around being mad because they must compete with "healthy" dogs is a fabricated statement.......
Breeders that "show" their dogs WILL hop around mad....IF the person is diagnosing with preposterous accusations, purely on speculation and personal opinion, like or dislike.....JMO


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> There's a huge difference between checking for sick or lame dogs, and disqualifying dogs where you don't happen to agree with the breed standard.
> 
> Also, if you're going to check dogs, then ALL breeds should be checked.


I agree all breeds should be checked. And I don't think anyone is talking about disqualifying dogs because someone "doesn't agree" with the standard, I think that's a little overblown. If the standard for Clumber Spaniels calls for cherry eye, or the standard for Bulldogs calls for snorting and wheezing when at rest or under mild exercise, or GSDs to be wobbly and weak, I guess we have a different discussion.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I agree all breeds should be checked. And I don't think anyone is talking about disqualifying dogs because someone "doesn't agree" with the standard, I think that's a little overblown. If the standard for Clumber Spaniels calls for cherry eye, or the standard for Bulldogs calls for snorting and wheezing when at rest or under mild exercise, or GSDs to be wobbly and weak, I guess we have a different discussion.


but the video of the Clumber showed a dog with rather nice eyes. She wasn't DQ'd for cherry eye.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Dun...what was she Dq'd for BTW?....


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

robinhuerta said:


> Dun...what was she Dq'd for BTW?....


She was DQ'd because her eyes were red....I think they were talking about the droopy part of the eye. We're not talking goopy or infected, and in the video the eyes looked normal. I'm not right there so who knows. But this is a top winning dog and the judge apparently thought the eyes were fine.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> but the video of the Clumber showed a dog with rather nice eyes. She wasn't DQ'd for cherry eye.


I was just using that as an example, I'm not sure what the vet saw in this particular case.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

This is fascinating...thank you for sharing. good luck to you.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

robinhuerta said:


> *Twenty dogs with Hip Dysplasia were reported and fifteen cases of Intervertabral disc disease (cervical and/or Thoracolumbar).....*
> 
> OK....either these owners/handlers had their dogs thrown on an x ray machine..moments prior to or after competing in the ring....or the vet has such advanced, non human x ray vision....to be able to diagnose such hip and spine problems, that the entire rest of the world and professionals need a machine to do.......AMAZING VET.
> *come'on......a pinch of knowledge, a dab of good intentions & a cup of power......makes for horrible ingredients to an already complicated recipe.*
> _...again...just my opinion..._


WHOA THERE!!!!! I just did a partial cut paste of the larger article. These dogs were NOT at one dog show. It was a study of the breed. Please read the entire link...

Clumber Spaniel Club of America <-- click that


I assumed people knew I posted the links so they would be read for clarification. (What do they say about when we assume????  )

My point was supposed to be about different breeds are known for different issues and problems. And I would guess a good vet would be aware of that. Cavaliers may have Syringomyelia Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel GSD's can have *Von Willebrand's Disease **http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Health.htm*, bulldogs can have tons of breathing disorders (that have to be fixed with SURGERY http://bulldogdomain.com/health/breathing.php and on and on and on.

CLEARLY many breeders are doing a wonderful job trying to be responsible and have the best dogs they can! This isn't the issue. THOSE breeders have nothing to worry about and their dogs will fly thru any vet check with flying colors! 

THOSE are the breeders that need to be supported and gone to for a puppy. And if it takes a vet check to make sure the truly responsible breeders are the ones with the winning dogs, then so be it!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> MaggieRoseLee; responsible and have the best dogs they can! This isn't the issue. THOSE breeders have nothing to worry about and their dogs will fly thru any vet check with flying colors!
> 
> THOSE are the breeders that need to be supported and gone to for a puppy. And if it takes a vet check to make sure the truly responsible breeders are the ones with the winning dogs, then so be it!


 
I agree and these breeders should welcome these vet checks because it will promote their breeding program and be beneficial to the breed as a whole. I am blessed to have vet who is also a breeder (of field retrievers).

Judges judge structure and temperament according to the breed standard and vets judge health. They are two different things but isn't good health part of the breed standard?

I think a dog should be checked by a vet an cleared for all health and all the problems associated in the particular breed before being entered in the show.. Probably this is not realistic...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The BOB GSD passed the vet check.








(video is of the same dog, but last year.)


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

They should have the dogs off leash.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Packen said:


> They should have the dogs off leash.


Not sure what you mean?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Is it me or do these dogs, especially the BOB in this video look _less_ angulated then dogs from maybe 6-7 years ago, similiar venues?

As I look around, study, and look at pics from past GSDs to present I'd say (to my uneducated eye admittedly) that the trend is to moderation?





Chicagocanine said:


> The BOB GSD passed the vet check.
> 
> 
> Elmo v Huhnegrab winning BOB at Crufts 2011 - YouTube
> ...


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> She was DQ'd because her eyes were red....I think they were talking about the droopy part of the eye. We're not talking goopy or infected, and in the video the eyes looked normal. I'm not right there so who knows. But this is a top winning dog and the judge apparently thought the eyes were fine.


 NO, it was disqualified because it had bilateral ectropion. Quit breeding dogs prone to this irritating and painful eye condition where your eyelids turn inside out and maybe you won't get DQ'd for it.

We all know top winning dogs are obviously the absolute best a breed has to offer, and has nothing to do with money and politics and Judges have nothing but the best in mind when putting up top dogs, as evidenced by the hairy rug that couldn't walk nor breathe being put up as the best at Westminster just a few weeks ago. 

If people want to play with their freak shows, go right ahead, but don't try passing that BS off to the rest of the world as somehow being the best in anything.

and i'm not talking about people that are breeding and showing dogs, i'm talking about the kind that put up crippled and diseased and genetically weak dogs and get them passed as winners thanks to money and politics, which seems to be more and more the norm at these top levels.

I'm glad they're cracking down, I hope they do more so, and much tougher.


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