# Tetanus symptoms



## ThreeDogs

Last week I had post that Cyrus had some discomfort in his mouth, I had attributed it to a broken canine tooth. After a visit to the vet, she concluded it was his jaw that was the problem and he probably pulled a muscle,we scheduled a x-ray for a few days later in case the pain did not go away. I went home and on the vet advice gave him a dose of Metacam.
Later that day I noticed his eyes rolling around in his head a bit and he had trouble focusing. I thought it was the metacam. When he continued this Monday morning we went back to the vet.

She feels it is the nerves in his head, it has caused the muscles in his head to constrict so he is always frowning. His vision is off, his pupils are not dilating properly. But his jaw seems to be working okay.
He is also having difficulty swallowing. He is on a course of steroids and we go back on Saturday, she is also consulting with a neurologist.

She says this happens. Has this happened to anyone here? or has anyone heard anything similar?


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## eberesche

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

That's odd. Let us know what the vet says and the xrays show. I'm going to throw a few things out off the top of my head. Sounds like encephalitis of some kind maybe?
I've seen severe inner ear infections or foxtails imbedded really deep in the ear do similar things but pretty hard to miss the rotten ear so that's very doubtful. 
A friend's Doberman shows some of the same symptoms occassionally. That dog has a disc problem in his neck and it flares up, usually because the dog did a faceplant on the wood floor. Rest and anti inflammatories and pain meds for a few days and the dog's back to right as rain though.
Question-is there any possibility Cyrus could have been punctured by something in or around his mouth that hasn't been spotted? Possibly tetanus or a deep abcess?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

it's effecting his eye sight which has me very scared.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I don't think it could be a puncture, he has no wounds. I can find no info on the net either.


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## eberesche

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

OK, How'd he break the tooth? Is this an old or a new as in pretty recent thing? 

Btw, an abcessing puncture you likely wouldn't find. At least not until it bursts. But it is painful. A splinter or something that's worked in deep you wouldn't notice at all until then. If a cat clawed him, even that could do it.

Several days of jaw discomfort, now eyes rolling, vision off, not dilating properly, difficulty swallowing but jaw seems to be working OK.

Noticed symptoms worse on Monday after Metacam. Now on steroids.

Call the vet back in the morning. Find out what the neurologist said. If the xrays haven't been done yet, get them done. Get blood work done. Go to another vet if you have to. He's got something going on and it needs to be found. It could be seizures, it could be some type of poison, could be many things. Whatever it is, it's gotten worse. Hopefully the steroids will help today and you'll see an improvement tomorrow.

Not trying to scare you more here, but this isn't going to be diagnosed over the internet.
If he gets worse than what he is, don't wait around, go to the emergency vet. The neuro signs and the difficulty swallowing ARE cause for alarm.

Please let us know how he does and what they find. Keeping my fingers crossed for y'all.


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## arycrest

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

This is a question - is there something, a virus or something like that, that is similar to shingles (Herpes Zoster) in dogs? The symptoms sound like shingles but I can't find anything that relates to shingles and dogs (chickenpox).


Someone has already mentioned this about disc problems in the neck and head/jaw pain. But Ringer was having a lot of problems with pain in his head/jaw area that was helped after he was diagnosed with the bad discs in his neck. BUT no, it didn't affect his eyes.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Oh my gosh. I hope he's okay. I agree to push, push, push with the vetting on this. 

Please let us know.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

You are not scaring me anymore then I already am. I have been crying for days. 

We did do blood, just waiting for it to come back.

My vets seem to be taking this very seriously as they have never seen "in person" this type of thing. He is not getting any worse, but he is not better either, although his jaw seems to be working better. 

His balance is fine, he chasing a ball although he is having some trouble seeing it. He does not seem to be in any pain at all, and the eyesight is bothering me more than it is him.

There is no behavior change at all with him, which is why she does not at this point think it could be seizers or a brain tumor. 

His eyes, I cannot tell you how freaky they are, I get a lump in my throat every time I see his eyes cross, roll back or when I see that he has to shake his head for them to go back into place. 

Thank you for your responses this is just devastating to me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Could it be that vestibular thing-in a dog that young?
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_vestibular_disease.html

Wow. Are you near Guelph? Cornell may not even be that far from you, really-or Michigan. Just thinking ahead. I think these guys are expensive, but less than Canadian vets-at least it was that way for the IMOM dog: http://www.opvmc.com/ find a neurologist site: http://www.acvim.org/

I'm sorry that this is happening.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Thank you Jean it means alot.

His balance and hearing are perfect, which is why this is so hard to diagnose. 

We have discussed Guelph, and I told her that I will take him anywhere to make sure that he will be okay. He is worth a few thousand if that is what it takes. I can't bear the thought of losing him.

She is doing all the prelim stuff here and is in contact with the neurologist. I will be going for a follow up Saturday morning, she wants to see how the steroids work. I am 10 minutes from the emerg ER if needed. I am also leaving work a few times a day to check on him.

I just can't find info that could give a hint as to what is causing this.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Tetanus????

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/tetanus.html Also, just google tetatnus dog: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4TSHB_en___US211&q=tetanus+dog

I also hope some of the "Tickettes" see this-LisaT, debbieb, Jakoda...maybe it's something like that? http://www.mirage-samoyeds.com/tick.htm


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I will be calling my vet first thing in the morning. It sounds similar.

Thank you!!!


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## Lynnemd

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I just wanted to wish you and Cyrus the best. I hope the vet gets this diagnosed and fast. I would not hesitate to get to a specialist.


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## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: Nerological poblem?*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANCould it be that vestibular thing-in a dog that young?
> http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_vestibular_disease.html


That's what I was thinking from the eye thing, but I've never heard of it in a young dog. Sneaker got it at almost 14 years old. 

So sorry to hear about this ThreeDog, sounds like you've got some good vets working on it.


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## debbiebrown

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

masticatory myositis?????? i recently knew someone thats shepherd had this, the symptoms were similar to yours.

debbie


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*



> Originally Posted By: debbiebmasticatory myositis?????? i recently knew someone thats shepherd had this, the symptoms were similar to yours.


Sound similar, but his jaw works well.

I seem to be able to pick out symptoms that he has from certain diseases but he is able to eat and his energy level has not changed at all. This is what is making this so strange. The treatment for is masticatory myositis is prednisone which is currently on.

At this point Tetanus seem to have more similarities.


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

MM is a good call.

Any recent vaccinations within the last three months?

Any chance of a tick disease?

Does the face look a bit sunk-in, particularly around the temples, like there might be loss of muscle mass?


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## debbiebrown

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

the gsd that i recently saw with masticatory myositis the head was sunk in at the temples. i believe preds, cause this too.

lisa, what were you thinking it could be asking about the temples?

anyway, MM is treated with preds, but its very likely it could come back and be a cronic thing once preds are stopped. all dogs are different and may not have all classic symptoms. any of these diseases are worth looking into for sure.

debbie


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

No vaccinations in the last year.

No indication of a tick either, I don't really have wooded areas and I do groom once a week and I am careful to look for anything out of the ordinary.

His eyes ARE sunken in and when excited or stressed they roll around in his head and his third eyelid keeps coming out. 

His ears are VERY erect. If you put your hand on his head his ears will not flatten, the base of them are very stiff. And are now standing very close together.

It's not loss of muscle mass, but a stiffing of his facial muscles and ears. Does that make sense? He has no apparent area's of swelling.

The Neurologists agrees with the course of action the vet is currently taking. I have an appointment for first thing Saturday morning. They believe that it is a nerve in his head that has constricted? 

I have told her that if there is no change buy Saturday that I want him tested for everything.


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## agilegsds

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Many years ago our Gordon Setter had tetanus and the symptoms were very similar to what you've described. We went to several vets before a specialist who had treated dogs with the disease recognized it. Since it is not very common in dogs, many vets are unable to diagnose it. By that time, he had only a 50/50 chance but the vet was able to locate the antitoxin and it did work, although he was touch and go for a few weeks.

I also know of a GSD in IL that contracted it recently, most likely from the farm she lived and worked on. She also pulled through but it was a long road, also had the antitoxin. 

In my case, our Gordon had a cracked toenail that had become infected and we didn't realize it and then he contracted it through the nail from the dirt in our yard. Tetanus lives in dirt. We lived in the Chicago suburbs at the time. One of the vets who saw him didn't even make the connection because she sent him home with the toe bandaged and antibiotics.

Time is of the essence in treating tetanus and caution must be taken to not expose the dog to bright lights or loud noises, since it can send them into systolic shock.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Thank you agilegsds, with that we will be going to the vet tomorrow not on Saturday.


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

debbieb, I was thinking of MM when I asked about the temples, and also any type of autoimmune problems. Indy gets this from her lyme vaccine -- when she gets that look around the temples, then I know her vaccine problems are acting up.

Sandy, bacterial also crossed my mind, though I didn't think of tetanus -- that would make sense. I think I've seen a handful of tetanus cases in dogs on the boards over the years. If this is the case, then steroids would be terrible for the condition.

I would try abx before I went with steroids. If there is neck/brain inflammation, it might do the same thing, again, I would try abx as a first course. 

edit: Indy also gets this when her neck is really out of wack and needs an adjustment......I would feel in the back of the skull, and down the spinal column in the back of the neck -- tightness? pain?


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## debbiebrown

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

i agree that preds would not be good for tetanus. again, it would mask the problem, and lonmg term cause other issues. i realize the standard vet proceedure is process of ilimination through certain drugs, but where your treating the unknown preds could mess things up big time. i would definitely be asking more questions and having more tests done before diving into preds.
the key is to be proactive, otherwise your at the mercy of hit or miss.
debbie


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

If it's tetanus, wouldn't it be more dangerous than masking?

Tetanus is bacterial, right? If you suppress an immune system fighting a bacterial infection, aren't you just handing over the immune system to the bugs?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

The vet feels that it a nerve in his head/neck that is causing this. Could she really be that far off??? She did spend an hour with us.


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## debbiebrown

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Lisa,
yes, it would. masking wasn't the right word.









threedogs,
we all would certainly like to believe our vets know, or have an idea of whats going on, but its all a guessing game. they are so quick to prescribe the preds, and in some cases when things are treated blindly it could be dangerous.
the only thing you can do is ask for more tests, or at least tests on the few things it could be, just to rule things out.
debbie


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*



> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogsThe vet feels that it a nerve in his head/neck that is causing this. Could she really be that far off??? She did spend an hour with us.


I believe that your vet is probably close to right. Maybe even the trigeminal (sp???) nerve, or others close to it are affected.

However, it's the cause of what is compromising the nerve that is at issue. I had a head injury that messed up that nerve and I do have chronic neck issues -- I'd be lost without my chiro. The injury actually caused problems with my jaw, ear and one eye.

My dog has a nerve condition from her vaccines and you can feel the tightness in her neck when her jaw is affected. Her jaw will sit crooked sometimes, or the mouth drawn tight, as you describe.

Some dogs with lyme or a tick disease will get this....

encephilitis, meningitis, tetanus, all infections (some bacterial, some viral) can cause this.....

autoimmune conditions can also cause this.

I think your vet is probably right about where the problem is coming from, but just "trying" steroids scares me, without knowing more (the why), or being more confident that suppressing the immune system would be the right thing.


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## eberesche

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

The symptoms with the sunken eyes, stiff ears, along with the others are screaming tetanus at me. When he gets excited or stressed and spasms, see if he's stiffening in his tail or legs too.

It's very rare in dogs. They seem for some reason to be more resistant to it than most other critters or people are.
Keep in mind, it could have come from some little minor cut, scratch, anything, WEEKS ago.

Yes, it's entirely possible the vet missed it, even the neurologist could have missed it. It's really not something to consider as a first-line problem as most vets have never and will never see a case of it in a dog. A good equine vet on the other hand, can peg it with a glance. Horses are very susceptable.

Keep him dark and quiet, if it is tetanus, it will help him. Get him back to the vet in the morning and ask about that being a possibility. I'm hoping a light bulb will go off. The vet can do a serum test for tetanus toxoid and you'll have the answer. It can not hurt him to have him checked. The serum test may not come back positive. There is a vet at UC Davis that's seen and treated this before. I'll have to find his name. A phone call up there with a description of the symptoms may be all that's needed to diagnose it.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Thank you guys so much. I can't tell you how much all the help and advice is appreciated. 

So far I will have him checked for:
tetanus
encephilitis
meningitis
tick/lime disease

Is this all done with a blood test? 

eberesche posted at the same time. If the test comes back negative, it could still be a possibility?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I'm not sure, just wanted to say good luck tomorrow.


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## eberesche

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Yes, tetanus is still possible even if the test comes back negative.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Thank you . This all does not seem to be bothering him at all!! He is his happy goofy, energetic self. While I am a nervous wreck!!


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## agilegsds

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

When my Gordon had tetanus it was diagnosed on sight. The specialist walked into the room and recognized it immediately. She told us to be quiet and shut off the lights right away. Plus, he also had the infected toenail. It has a distinctive appearance that once you see it, you don't forget it. (I wish I still had the picture of that GSD with tetanus, but I looked through my emails and I must have deleted it) I don't recall if they did the titer with us, it's been so long. But, as the previous poster mentioned, a vet that is an equine vet can be helpful because it is so much more common in horses. The anti-toxin, which saved our Gordon, can be hard to locate, and the vet's office called all over the place until they found it at a horse farm and sent someone for it.

I just found this article online and it's almost exactly what we went through when he was finally diagnosed, but we had a better result. I don't want to scare you, but I think it explains the disease and symptoms very well:

http://dermotwaters.com/finn_maccool/


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

His ears were pinned back, his mouth seemed pulled back, and his legs were stiff. 

Cyrus's ears are pinned straight up, not back and his legs are just fine. Running and walking normally. He does have the third eyelid thing going on.
My vet did not even mention any type of infection.


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## eberesche

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

What is tetanus?
Clostridum tetani is an anaerobic bacterium that is widely distributed in the soil. C. tetani usually enters the body through a wound, and in anaerobic conditions the spores germinate and produce toxin. The toxin usually spreads by traveling along peripheral nerves to the spinal cord, but can also spread through the body via the blood. The toxin acts on the central nervous system by interfering with the release of inhibitory neurotransmitters. Muscles contract and become spastic, and affected animals are particularly sensitive to stimulation.

The incubation period for tetanus varies from three to 21 days, although clinical signs usually are seen within five to 10 days of infection. The initial signs typically reflect the location of the source of infection. Localized tetanus, such as rigidity of one leg, is more common than generalized tetanus in dogs and cats due to their relative resistance. Involvement of the facial muscles typically manifests as inability to open the jaw (trismus; a.k.a. “lockjaw”) with lips drawn back (risus sardonicus), and erect ears. Diagnosis is usually based on finding a wound in the presence of typical signs. In addition to identifying and removing the source of infection, treatment includes antitoxin, antibiotics effective against C. tetani such as penicillin and metronidazole, sedatives and muscle relaxants, and supportive care.

Most dogs with localized tetanus or generalized tetanus without respiratory compromise recover if given enough time and supportive care. The prognosis usually is guarded-to-poor in dogs with generalized tetanus and respiratory complications. Recovery from tetanus does not provide future protection against the disease, and vaccination for dogs is neither available nor recommended.

Although the disease is rare in dogs, dog owners should seek veterinary attention for any wounds noticed on their animals. Although humans are susceptible to tetanus, it is not considered contagious from an affected animal since a wound is necessary for incubation of the bacteria. Exposed people should consult their physicians for specific recommendations

Source: Univ. of Pennsylvannia: School of Veterinary Medicine


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I was hoping it was tetanus, now I am terrified of it. 

I just want to know for sure what it is and we can deal from there.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Any pupdates?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

He started to bunny hop and show some stiffness in his rear leg this morning. I took him immediately over to the vet.

The 3 vets on staff all were there and I advised them of the possible tetanus. They all agreed and the one vet as soon as she seen him immediately though tetanus as he was so much worse this morning.

They did not wait for the test results but immediately hooked him up to IV antibiotics. I drove 3 hours to another vet to get the anti-toxin.

He spent the day at the vets and is now home with enough meds to knock out a horse. He will spend all day at the vets again tomorrow and a follow up on Saturday morning.

While I am glad to have a diagnosis and the vets are confidante it was caught in time the prognosis of he "should" recover has me in a constant state of tears. 

I knew I loved him, but until this I never realized how truly devastating it is for people to lose a beloved pet.

So a HUGE HUGE thank you to Jean for for your knowledge.

Lisa T, debbie, eberesche, agilegsds, (sorry if I forgot anyone, I am still crying) I think you all saved my pups life. Thank you seems so inadequate but this being the Internet It is all I have.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

WOW. I am so glad that he is on the road to health again. I am betting that they have to say "should" and that they really mean "will". 

Please give him a kiss on his well medicated nose from me!


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## Skye'sMom

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Boy - I just read this through and it was scary.









Three Dogs; I am glad to hear that your dog should have a full recovery. You are so great to keep researching this for your dog. I hope all will be better soon.

Everyone else - this is another thread I will always keep in mind. I learned a lot and (just as the earlier pannus threads helped me with Skye) the information could help save a dog in the future.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge with all of us.

I wonder if this could be renamed "Tetanus symptoms" and pinned so others could benefit from it.


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## agilegsds

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I am very relieved that you have a diagnosis. And you did catch it early so, yes, he does have an excellent prognosis. My Laddie was far far worse before we had a diagnosis, he was stiff all over and I remember sitting in the waiting room of the specialty clinic 14 years ago trying to hold back from bawling, sure that we were losing him. But we didn't and he pulled through and so will Cyrus. Laddie was about the same age as Cyrus, he was 21 months old. Getting that anti-toxin so quickly is crucial and it sounds like your vets have done everything right. He will be okay!!!

It does take a while to completely beat this thing, so progress may seem slow, but don't get discouraged, you will get there. Please feel free to pm me anytime if you want to talk. Although it's been 14 years, it still seems like yesterday to me. <<Hugs>>


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## Barb E

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I'm so sorry for the huge scare and I'm so glad that folks here were so helpful.

Do you mind if I share your story with a friend of mine?


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## WiscTiger

Three Dogs I have been checking this thread. I didn't have any knowledge so I didn't want to clutter the thread. But let me say I am so glad to hear that they pin pointed your problem.

I want to leave this open so you can update us on the progress and I will make sure that we save this thread. I will put some type of link up in the health Sticky Post.

Val


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## eberesche

Oh wow. 
ThreeDogs, I am so glad you finally got a diagnosis on this boy. Don't worry or get discouraged, it was caught very early, and he's getting great care by you and your vet. It may take a little while but he will pull through just fine and be back to his normal self. You've got many happy years to look forward to with this guy.


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## BowWowMeow

Ok, I just read through this whole thing. You all are amazing--what a fabulous collection of brain and google power here. 

ThreeDogs--Hang in there. I can imagine how you are feeling right now. Stay strong for Cyrus. How is he doing today?


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## DancingCavy

*Hugs to you and Cyrus* I wish him a fast and speedy recovery.

When I worked at the vet hospital, we had a tetnus case come in. Max the Pitt. Everyone grew so attached to him and he fell in love with the tech who was hand-feeding him. He made a full recovery and is doing fine.

Take care, both of you.


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## ThreeDogs

agilegsds, you will regret your offer!!! I have many many questions.

I am so glad to see this is a sticky, I spent hours searching the net and It was not until I posted here that I actually felt a bit of hope. Keep in mind that I posted here while seeking vet care. 

Barb, please share this story. According to my vets it is very uncommon here and the initial symptoms can be misleading. And it was due to all of you here that tetanus was even a consideration.

I picked him up last night after work and this morning he seems a bit better. Most of the tension seems to be easing off, although his eyes are still very unfocused and his sight is minimal. I let him out this morning and he wanted to play ball!!

Even after all he has been through he is still his happy goofy self. And the vets all love him, said he was a dream all day yesterday. And judging by his poop he received many treats.

He is back at the vets today for observation because I am at work and I would be an absolute wreak if he were left alone. I also think he needs a break from me hovering over him and crying...


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogs It was not until I posted here that I actually felt a bit of hope










Go germanshepherds.com!! 

I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and hoping for the absolute best!!


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## LisaT

I am so happy to hear that you've got a diagnosis and full recovery will eventually be expected. I think it's a huge step that you've already seen some positive response -- WOW is right.


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## GT

> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogsHe is back at the vets today for observation because I am at work and I would be an absolute wreak if he were left alone...


Hope all went well for Cyrus today. Please let us know how he's doing when you get a chance. 
Hugs to you and Cyrus,


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## RedCrown

I have seen tetanus myself- a female sheltie that was spayed at a clinic I used to work at. 2 weeks after the spay she was brought in looking like someone was pulling all the skin back on her face, and she hesitated to walk- very shallow breathing. Unfortunatley her treatment came too late, and she didn't make it through.







There were no injuries on her- the only think we could think of is that she contracted it from lying in the dirt with a fresh spay scar. 

Like someone said before- once you see it, it hits you like a ton of bricks and you'll never forget what it looks like. 

I am glad your boy is going to be okay.


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## RedCrown

Here is a link to a site with pictures- the third one down is the classic face:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG


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## ThreeDogs

Thank you for posting that. And I am feeling a bit of relief, Cyrus is not nearly that bad.

He is not any better but he is no worse. He is adjusting so well to everything, from the 25 drugs being thrown down his throat each day to not being able to see anything. 

I think the vet today was a bit disappointed that he didn't have any visible signs of improvement, but I noticed that some of the tightness has subsided. 

I am pretty sure his chart says "Dog is fabulous, owner is a crybaby, have tissues on hand". She made a point of telling me that his Valium is human grade.









We will be at the vet at least every other day until he is better, but I know that this will be a long journey of recovery for him. I am just so glad to have him with me.


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## eberesche

He'll be OK ThreeDogs. I have no doubts about that at all. You caught it so early, he didn't even have all the stage 1 signs. The antibiotics and the antitoxin are doing their job negating any free toxin and bacteria in his system. His immune system's getting a big helping boost to fight it too. 

What's going on now is basically, the toxin binds to the neurotransmitters and interferes with them. That's what causes the symptoms. There's nothing to treat that with but time and that's what takes them so long to recover. The toxin has to unbind itself, there's no treatment to make that happen. But it will happen slowly on it's own. He'll be back to his old self before you know it. 

Betcha his chart says "dog is fabulous, owner is a class act"


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Awww, ThreeDogs! My vet just offered to do a dental on Kramer-he said he'd make it through the anesthesia, but didn't know about me! I told them I thought if maybe they did a side by side kind of thing...with me under, too...it might work.









I am so glad that it was caught so early-when I looked at the picture in that link I thought jeez, louise, it reminds me of some of the bad plastic surgery you see!!! I am sure he is doing really, really well!


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## ThreeDogs

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANMy vet just offered to do a dental on Kramer-he said he'd make it through the anesthesia, but didn't know about me! I told them I thought if maybe they did a side by side kind of thing...with me under, too...it might work.


I think this is why they sent me home with extra Valium











> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI am so glad that it was caught so early-when I looked at the picture in that link I thought jeez, louise, it reminds me of some of the bad plastic surgery you see!!! I am sure he is doing really, really well!


Yes those pictures were awful. I am going to take some pictures of Cyrus for this thread. I can capture his ears, very straight and stiff and his back end. I think the early stage pictures could be beneficial.

I would love for everyone to see his eyes, but I can't take a chance with the flash.


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## TMarie

ThreeDogs,
I just finished reading this. I am so sorry you are going through this with Cyrus, But I am so happy and relieved for you, now that you know what it is, and Cyrus will recover.

(((Many Hugs)))


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## agilegsds

> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogs
> He is not any better but he is no worse.


Ahhh, but that is good news. Really! That's the way it works with this disease. Every day that it's not worse means that you are beating it!

Now try to take care of yourself too, okay?


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Just curious, what meds is he on? How does his treatment compare with the one that agilegsds dog went through?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Cyrus is on:

Apro-Metronidazole 2 x every 12 hours
Acevet 2 x every 12 hours
Penicillin 1 x every 8 hours
Robaxin 1.5 x every 8 hours
Valium 2 x every 8 hours

He also had a few days on intravenous antibiotics.


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

I'm curious what others have to say about the meds......I do have a couple of comments.

In some dogs, metronidazole can cause neurological side effects. (This is true for my gsd and my mixed breed, and many other dogs.) If you start seeing some wierd things going on -- uneasy gait, wobbly hind end, stiff hind end, stiff tail, over excitability, it might not be the disease, but the metro. I think many dogs are fine on it, but something to watch for.

It looks like the abx is penicillin, while the rest are for sedation and/or inflammation? If you go for periods without improvement, you might ultimately try one of the abx that are helpful in tick diseases. But I agree for now, no worsening of symptoms is great news.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

The valium is for ThreeDogs, I think.


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*








Oh geez, now *that *makes sense!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Nerological poblem?*


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*








You guys are funny 

And yes I think it may be for me as well, when the vet was going over the meds and got to the Valium I said "one for him, one for me" she did not even bat an eyelash and added that it was human grade.....








I haven't been brave enough to try it yet.

The Valium was to help control his twitching.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*



> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> In some dogs, metronidazole can cause neurological side effects. (This is true for my gsd and my mixed breed, and many other dogs.) If you start seeing some wierd things going on -- uneasy gait, wobbly hind end, stiff hind end, stiff tail, over excitability


Is this a permanent side effect of the drug?

Should I take the fact that I caught him counter suffering as an improvement??


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## LisaT

*Re: Nerological poblem?*



> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogs......
> 
> The Valium was to help control his twitching.


That makes sense to me. When Max gets a hotspot, you can see the skin flinching at random intervals. I use the herb skullcap for that -- some extra magnesium in the diet might help with any muscle spasms?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: Nerological poblem?*

Magnesium that you can get at the Drug store? Any other supplements you can think of?

Any idea how much to give him? He is about 90 pounds, he has lost a bit.


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I don't remember what you feed (raw, cooked, kibble?)....what supplements, if any, are you already giving?

So what are we trying to address -- the bacteria and muscle spasms...anything else?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I feed Merrick, he is getting 1 1/2 cup kibble and a can of wet right now x 2 per day. I am only giving E and C.

I feel I need to address everything right now, his weight has gone right down and his coat is not a soft, I know this is going to be a bit of a journey with him so whatever I can do for him I will. 

The spasms has decreased tremendously, and I have cut back on the Valium.

If there is anything that can help with the bacteria?


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## WiscTiger

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I am glad to hear that Cyrus was counter surfing.....


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## eberesche

*Re: tetanus treatment*

ThreeDogs, he may be having trouble swallowing and digesting properly between the combo of drugs he's on and the tetanus. Have you tried soaking his kibble before you mix it with the wet? I would try him on that, make it nice and mushy, almost a gruel so he can eat it a little easier. I'd be feeding him more too. He needs it right now.

The vet is covering all bases here by using two different types of antibiotics in case the bacteria is resistant to one of them and in case of secondary infection. It's very important he finishes all of them. I would be very careful decreasing the valium at this point. If the spasms get worse than they are now, bump it back up. 

Tetanus antitoxin=same as snakebite antivenin. Immediate boost to trigger to the immune system to get going.

IV antibiotics=massive immediate dose administered constantly directly into the bloodstream. Quick kill of bacteria and support for the immune system.

Penicillin 1 x every 8 hours 
Antibiotic 

Apro-Metronidazole 2 x every 12 hours
Antibiotic. It is not related to penicillin. Any side effects should disappear after he's off the drug. 

Acevet 2 x every 12 hours
tranquilizer to keep him calm and non-reactive

Robaxin 1.5 x every 8 hours
muscle relaxer

Valium 2 x every 8 hours
to relieve the muscle spasms

Stress, bright light, sudden loud noise, excitement can bring on the spasms. The combination of drugs is to prevent this from happening. The tetanus bacteria isn't what kills. It's the toxin given off by the bacteria. The toxin binds to the neurotransmitters. More bacteria, more toxin. The disease progresses as more bacteria grow and more toxin is released and binds to more transmitters. That's why his leg was stiff the next day. Progression. Eventually, the entire body is affected, becomes stiff and can't relax. Breathing is affected at some point and that's when it usually becomes fatal.

Kill the bacteria off and there's no more toxin being produced. But the toxin still circulating in his system and what's already bound to the neurotransmitters is still present. So, the dog can still have symptoms and be suffering from tetanus. We already know what antibiotics do. But there is no treatment or drug to eliminate the toxin or that can make it unbind from his nervous system. So the other drugs are to keep him "out of it" until the toxin unbinds itself from his neurotransmitters and his immune system has time to work to eliminate the toxin. He's not getting worse, so he is getting better.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I have been soaking the kibble until soft because he was having difficulties eating.

I will add another meal per day for him. What do you think of adding Satin Balls to his menu?

The only vitamins I have him on are the E and C. Anymore to add?

His eyes are better this morning, they are not rolling around so much and he seems to be able to keep them steady for longer periods of time.

I am starting to feel a bit better. 

I am so impressed by your knowledge. Thank you so much....


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

ThreeDogs,

I'm looking at things with respect to the diet and supplements, but I want to make sure that we don't move in the wrong direction.

I don't remember, was the antitoxin given? Giving the antitoxin is supposed to help bind with the toxins that haven't yet attached themselves to the nerve endings. It does this either directly, or by inducing the body to create the appropriate antibodies. I think it's the latter, but not 100% right now (that aging short term memory thing). This takes the circulating toxins out of body, while the abx are killing the bacteria that create the toxins.

What we want to target is helping the abx to their jobs, helping the body deal with the meds and the toxins as a whole, and maybe, if we can, find a way either to protect the nerves, or to help them regenerate so they can heal.

To fight any infection, increasing antioxidants help -- the vit. C is good, and the vitamin E should be mixed tocopherols, not just d-alpha. Maybe a good overall vitamin product to increase amounts of vit. A, the B vitamins, etc. would be a good start -- something that can be mixed in (like Missing Link) or a capsule to open up, so it doesn't have to be chewed.


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## hudak004

*Re: tetanus treatment*








Glad things are looking up for you and Cyrus!


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

He was given the anti-toxin. 

My concern was adding to much to his diet, too fast. I will check to see if my pet store here carries The missing link or something similar.

I feel like I need to send you payment for your consulting services


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

We're just sharing ideas from like experiences, right? no consulting here!

I agree about too much too fast. But I think that there may be some key things....and it may be almost as simple as a multi and increasing the vitamin C. How much vit. C are you giving?

It seems that there may be some link to autism and and an intestinal tetanus infection -- wierd, eh?

How *is* his digestion?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I only give him 400mg of Vit. C anything more seems to give him diarrhea. (at least that was what I think the problem was)

As for his digestion, he bowel moments are very soft. I am attributing it to the vast amounts of treats and canned food he is eating. I don't want to cut down on the canned because even though his kibble is soaked until soft he still does have a hard time eating it.

As for the tetanus intestinal infection causing Autism, I will pass that along to a friend I have that has an autistic child.

I was planning on discussing the loose bowel movements with the vet at our next appointment.


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

If more vit. C doesn't work, then don't try to give him more. The high amounts that might help are probably best given through an IV, but most vets don't do that, so just keep giving what you are giving.

Pet stores don't often carry Missing Link, but many health food stores do -- you can use the pet version or the human version. 

The loose bowel movements could be from the change in diet, but could also be from a change in the muscles that control digestion because of the tetanus.

Any chance you could lightly cook some liver for him? Maybe blend it in minced form? You could also steam and then mince in some veggies for immune support and fiber.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

If the loose bowel moments are because of a change of the muscles that control digestion, is this something that can be repaired?

And even though I detest liver, I will cook some up for him...I'll be mean and tell the kids it's for them...lol I'll add in some veggies as well.

If I can find my camera cable I'll post up the pictures I took of him.


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I think that even if the nerves and/or muscles are damaged, they can recover. It probably depends on the extent. The one study I read about the autistic kids stated marked improvement in just about everything, and I suspect in that case it was a long-term local infection.

LOL -- definitely mess with the kids, *that* sounds fun. (I hate liver too.)


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I've taken a few pictures, I don't know how well you will able to make out the tightness in his ears and his forehead.

Back of his head:










Front View










My poor guy!!


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## arycrest

*Re: tetanus treatment*

The pictures make that tightness very obvious - the poor baby!!! Is he sore to the touch?

Give him lots of hugs from us!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Oh how weird! Poor guy-but getting great care. 

In my house, a little liver went a long way-if you know what I mean.







Just you might want to adjust what you give him so that it's small amounts.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*



> Originally Posted By: ArycrestThe pictures make that tightness very obvious - the poor baby!!! Is he sore to the touch?


Not sure if he is sore, but I have been giving him head massages to see if I can give him a bit of relief.



> Originally Posted By: ArycrestGive him lots of hugs from us!!!


I will tell him the hugs are from you!! I think he is getting annoyed by me.









JeanKBBMMMAAN, I am dreading cooking the liver..ewwwww

And you think that is weird! let me see if I can get a decent pictures of his eyes!! If you were able to see him in person,with his ears all wonky and his eyes going all over the place.....he breaks my heart.


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I agree, a little liver does go a long way!

How is he doing today?

You know, the supplement that made the most immediate difference for my girl and her neurological condition was alpha lipoic acid. Her muscles along the spine, as soon as you would touch them, it would cause a ripple affect along her whole body. She hurt everywhere. I read about alpha lipoic acid because diabetics use it to protect themselves from nerve damage. When I added this supplement, then many muscles start relaxing more, we could touch her without her flinching, and she started adjusting better at the chiropractor.

You know, whenever I recommend anything on the boards, I always try to make sure that I've seen a study or something that backs up what I am saying. However, I could find anything that would back up this up in your case. However, if this were my dog (and I do experiment on my dogs), I would try some alpha lipoic acid. My 33 pounder gets 50 mg per day for her condition. I haven't a clue it would help, but because it protects the nerves, I keep coming back to thinking it might help here.

He looks like he should have a headache with all of that constriction around his head! His eyes look so sad :-(

You may already be doing this when you are massaging, but here's something that *might* help if you aren't already doing this. Hope I can describe it right.

Let's say you feel tightness and pulling from point A to point B. When I first started working on Indy, my first instinct was to massage a bit, and then try to stretch it out. What I found works better is completely opposite of what first did. If you hold at point A and hold at point B, and then gently pull them together, inward toward the tighness, sometimes this convinces the body that it can relax the muscle tension that it's holding. Holds probably need to last for at least 20 seconds, though the dog may react if they start feeling strange sensations. 

It's probably hard to tell how much of that tension can't be changed cuz it's a direct reaction from the tetanus and only time will make it better, or how much is muscle reaction independent of that, or from muscle memory.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I know he looks sad







It's all his muscles bunched up!! Last week his ears where so stiff they were touching.

He does not act sad at all. Keeps bringing me his cuz to play and his tug toys. And acts totally normal. My big jerk









Alpha lipoic acid, I will check this out. Drug store? I keep asking if stuff is available at the drug store because I live one house over from A huge Shoppers Drug Mart.









Since I am with him all the time, I asked my ex if he noticed any improvement and he said he did look much better.


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I'm so glad to hear that he's acting normal -- even if he is kinda a jerk. Mine is too, but I would miss that if it were gone









Some drug stores might have the alpha lipoic acid -- probably hit and miss. I buy it in a 100 mg tablet and cut it in half and toss it in with their food. I actually order from here, and it comes very quickly (and it's a lot cheaper):
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Alpha-Lipoic-Acid-with-Biotin


I'm glad you got a second opinion -- improvement will hopefully be steady now!


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## eberesche

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I'm enjoying the heck out of this supplement discussion and learning lots!

Sounds like he's well on his way to recovery. Whooohooo! *doing the happy dance for y'all*


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Sure is amazing you guys called it as tetanus the way that you did. With the supplements, I think that ThreeDogs is leading the way -- I sure couldn't find anyone online with reasonable experience in this area. Looks like Cyrus may be able to write his own book after this


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

And the first page will have dedications to all of you here









We have a vet appointment at 5:00pm today, I will let you all know how it goes...


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## Avamom

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I just saw this and I am so relieved you got a diagnosis and treatment so early.

Give him big hugs for me too.....

Was thinking about the supplements...if you want to add liver and vitamins what about Nupro Joint supplement...it has all of that in it and easier than cooking liver!


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Thank you for the suggestion, I hate liver.....

Cyrus saw the vet today, and she says he looks better!! Because of the way tetanus works we will see small steady improvements over a few weeks...

She spoke to the neurologist in Toronto again to give her updates. Apparently Cyrus is very interesting to a lot of vets!! My vet was telling me that she was getting congrats on catching Tetanus so early and being able to treat and study such and early case. 

She said she made sure to tell them all it was the client that caught it (me) I told her it wasn't me and to hire JeanKBBMMMAAN


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Great news from the vet regarding the improvement.

Heh, heh, maybe there really is a book deal in here somewhere


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Cyrus is doing so much better!!!!

His ears are where they should be and most of the stiffness is gone.

His eye sight is not a 100% yet, but his eyes have settled to where they should be.

Still a bit stiff in the rear end but again much improved...

Thank you all so very much for your support and advice. I know Cyrus and I could not have gotten through this with out you.


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## TMarie

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Excellent! 

Before you know it, Cyrus will be back to his normal self, and you and he could put all this behind you.

((Hugs))


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## DancingCavy

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I'm SO happy to hear Cyrus has improved so much in such a short period of time. *HUGS* to both of you.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: tetanus treatment*










NICE!


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: tetanus treatment*

I'm SO happy to hear that Cyrus is steadily improving!!!!!


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Thanks guys!! 

I can't tell you what a relief it was to wake up on Sunday Morning to a normal looking pup.....


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## LisaT

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Wow, relief was exactly the word that I was thinking of. Congratulations on getting him to this point -- hoping for continued improvement!


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## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: tetanus treatment*

Yippeeee!!! So glad to hear Cyrus is better!


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## Barb E

*!!!*












































THere aren't enough smilie guys in the world to tell you how happy I am to read your post!!!


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## WiscTiger

*Re: !!!*

That is great news. I think we as owners get impatient and want to see results faster. But with some illnesses that isn't going to happen. I am so glad Cyrus is doing better. All the happy things that Barb E posted...... 

Thank you so much for coming back and updating this thread. This is for sure a keeper for reference for others.


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: !!!*

Impatient is an understatement!! LOL.

The scariest part of this is that the symptoms of Tetanus get very bad very quickly. In just a few short days he lost his sight, his ears were stiff and touching and his back end started to stiffen up and he was having difficulties swallowing. I can't even describe how bad he looked.

I really hope this thread can be of benefit in the future to someone. With out it I know my Cyrus probably would not have made it, Tetanus is so uncommon it was not even considered by my vet, until I mentioned it on our 3rd vet visit in a week!!

Barb E. Love the all the smilies. 

Thank you everyone for all the kindness and support.

Have I told you how awesome you guys all are lately??


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## LisaT

*Re: !!!*

How is Cyrus doing? does it look like *everything* will resolve?


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: !!!*

He is doing GREAT!!! Thanks for asking!!

He can see again!! and by the way that he is catching his cuz, it is perfect!! I had him at the vets on Thursday while I was moving and they were really impressed at how well he is doing.

What a HUGE relief it is to have my big jerk back


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## LisaT

*Re: !!!*

I love a happy ending!!!! How much longer will you be treating him?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: !!!*

YAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DancingCavy

*Re: !!!*

*Happy dance*









I'm so glad to hear he's back to his old self.


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## Barb E

*Re: !!!*

Hey Three Dogs - How's Cyrus??


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: !!!*

Hey Barb E. Didn't see your post until now. I came back to check on some of the vitamin recommendations that were here. This is sooo much information on this thread.

Thank you for asking!! He is doing FABULOUS!! except for a poop issue that we will be seeing the vet about.

There seems to be no lingering side effects at all!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: !!!*










What a good boy he is! 

I need to tell my vet that we can add tetanus to the worry list (along with a few others that I always freak out about).


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## ThreeDogs

*Re: !!!*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> I need to tell my vet that we can add tetanus to the worry list (along with a few others that I always freak out about).












I now have a worry list!! Thanks a lot!! Tomorrow we will be checking EPI and SIBO...I have however really impressed my vets with my vast knowledge of doggie diseases.


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## Barb E

*Re: !!!*



> Originally Posted By: ThreeDogsHey Barb E. Didn't see your post until now. I came back to check on some of the vitamin recommendations that were here. This is sooo much information on this thread.
> 
> Thank you for asking!! He is doing FABULOUS!! except for a poop issue that we will be seeing the vet about.
> 
> There seems to be no lingering side effects at all!!










!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







on the poop - I replied to that thread


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