# A Comparison Worth Noting(no showline bashing)



## HeidiGS

Dingo vom Haus Gero and a modern day GSL.


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## marbury

That's intriguing to me. The old style male looks like what I see in ASL these days.


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## lalachka

The dog on the right looks fat and his muzzle looks short. Was the pic skewed in some way?


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## HeidiGS

lalachka said:


> The dog on the right looks fat and his muzzle looks short. Was the pic skewed in some way?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not to my knowledge.


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## lalachka

HeidiGS said:


> Not to my knowledge.


Is he the best of the best? In my uneducated opinion he looks very unattractive 

Why is he being the one compared to Dingo?


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## HeidiGS

lalachka said:


> Is he the best of the best? In my uneducated opinion he looks very unattractive
> 
> Why is he being the one compared to Dingo?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


There isn't a reason, but I agree. I will find a better pic and post it on this thread.


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## Freestep

I've never made it a secret that I don't like extremes, and the show lines have been heading that direction. I liked the look of the dogs back in the 1960's-70's before the big "split" happened between working and show lines.


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## HeidiGS

Ok, sorry. Here's a better picture of what I think looks attractive.


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## HeidiGS

Freestep said:


> I've never made it a secret that I don't like extremes, and the show lines have been heading that direction. I liked the look of the dogs back in the 1960's-70's before the big "split" happened between working and show lines.


I completely agree, I like the early-mid 70s dogs.


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## lalachka

HeidiGS said:


> Ok, sorry. Here's a better picture of what I think looks attractive.


Again, short muzzle and fat. For my taste. 


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## Liesje

I would bet money the photograph on the right is "photoshopped". I don't know if that makes it better or worse, lol!


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## HeidiGS

Liesje said:


> I would bet money the photograph on the right is "photoshopped". I don't know if that makes it better or worse, lol!


Lol, your probably right. I hope it makes it look worse.


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## Carriesue

This is one reason why I went with the breeder I did... She mostly breeds SL's but they are not the big blocky Akita head dogs.

Not the best stack but he has a similar shape to the first dog and he's half WGSL.


Self stack by Carriesue82, on Flickr


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## HeidiGS

Carriesue said:


> This is one reason why I went with the breeder I did... She mostly breeds SL's but they are not the big blocky Akita head dogs.
> 
> Not the best stack but he has a similar shape to the first dog and he's half WGSL.
> 
> 
> Self stack by Carriesue82, on Flickr


Awesome! If you don't mind me asking, who was the breeder? Feel free to PM me about it if your uncomfortable posting to the public.


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## Vagus

Agreed that the showline on the right in the first post doesn't look that impressive (although that's entirely subjective. Can't really say that one dog is better than the other when looks comes into play, because everyone has their own ideal). Not all showlines look like the one posted. On a related note, when I compare Liesje's Nikon to Dingo, I don't feel as though present day show lines are that bad. Again though, all of this is opinion, it's all pretty moot.


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## Mrs.P

HeidiGS said:


> a modern day GSL.


According to who?


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## HeidiGS

Mrs.P said:


> According to who?


In general.


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## HeidiGS

Vagus said:


> Agreed that the showline on the right in the first post doesn't look that impressive (although that's entirely subjective. Can't really say that one dog is better than the other when looks comes into play, because everyone has their own ideal). Not all showlines look like the one posted. On a related note, when I compare Liesje's Nikon to Dingo, I don't feel as though present day show lines are that bad. Again though, all of this is opinion, it's all pretty moot.


Yes, I am a lover of Showlines and completely agree with what you are saying.


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## GSxOwner

Ahhh I don't like the look of those hips! Looks prime for vet bills in the future. But then again I know nothing about show dogs and have ever only owned mutts. 


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## Carriesue

GSxOwner said:


> Ahhh I don't like the look of those hips! Looks prime for vet bills in the future. But then again I know nothing about show dogs and have ever only owned mutts.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



The slope(exaggerated by the stack btw) has NOTHING to do with hip dysplasia.


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## countryboy73703

I'm new to the site, and waiting to pick up my pup on November first.. Researching a lot and I know they tend to have hip issues... Is there a way to tell when they are 8 weeks old, or is it just a hit and miss type of deal.. And is it fixable or will it cause the doh to need to be out down later in life before its there time... Is there a gender that tends to have it more commonly than the other? Thanks

-Josh


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## HeidiGS

countryboy73703 said:


> I'm new to the site, and waiting to pick up my pup on November first.. Researching a lot and I know they tend to have hip issues... Is there a way to tell when they are 8 weeks old, or is it just a hit and miss type of deal.. And is it fixable or will it cause the doh to need to be out down later in life before its there time... Is there a gender that tends to have it more commonly than the other? Thanks
> 
> -Josh


There isn't a way to tell when they're that young, but you can stack the odds in your favor by buying from a reputable breeder. If your dog does develop HD then there's an expensive surgery to fix it. I don't think it matters on gender, but one of the more experienced members here could tell you for sure. Hope this helps.


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## countryboy73703

Ok thanks, ill keep checking for others inputs, now I'm researching about the AKC registration and stuff... But I don't wanna change the thread topic so ill search first and then start a new thread if needed.. Thanks


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## Mikelia

marbury said:


> That's intriguing to me. The old style male looks like what I see in ASL these days.


I agree.


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## HeidiGS

Mikelia said:


> I agree.


That makes me wonder, where are the American Showlines going?


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## HeidiGS

Here's what your average ASL looks like without being stacked.


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## lalachka

Carriesue said:


> The slope(exaggerated by the stack btw) has NOTHING to do with hip dysplasia.


I never knew that. I thought that's where the problems stemmed from. Oops 


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## countryboy73703

I thought the same my self.


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## doggiedad

some GSD's have a "roach".

QUOTE=lalachka;4210858]I never knew that. I thought that's where the problems stemmed from. Oops 


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countryboy73703 said:


> I thought the same my self.


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## lalachka

doggiedad said:


> some GSD's have a "roach".
> 
> QUOTE=lalachka;4210858]I never knew that. I thought that's where the problems stemmed from. Oops
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


[/QUOTE]

So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?


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## HeidiGS

So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?[/QUOTE]

No, not necessarily. But most that breed for a slope have HD show up.


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## lalachka

HeidiGS said:


> No, not necessarily. But most that breed for a slope have HD show up.


I meant how it originally became a problem. I know that at this point it's very hard eliminate it.


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## HeidiGS

Then I'm honestly not sure, I can guess that it probably came about when GSDs were very popular and some people were breeding for quantity there for a little while in the 1900's. Don't take my word for it though.


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## HeidiGS

Speaking of angulation in ASLs, I actually admire this dogs structure. TIDMORES RISING STAR LOGAN


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## Andaka

Do you think she is dysplastic?


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## Castlemaid

> HeidiGS said:
> 
> 
> 
> So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?
> 
> 
> 
> No, not necessarily. But most that breed for a slope have HD show up.
Click to expand...

This is a HUGE oversimplification and it is inaccurate to make such statements.


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## Saphire

HeidiGS said:


> So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?





> No, not necessarily. But most that breed for a slope have HD show up.


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## HeidiGS

Ok, I shouldn't say most. What I meant is that there are more show breeders than working breeders who don't care about health. But there still arent alot, I'm sorry that came across wrong.


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## HeidiGS

Andaka said:


> Do you think she is dysplastic?


No, I admire a good ASL.


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## carmspack

Dingo v h Gero was chosen as an illustration of balance in motion 



 
I don't agree with this at all !! "That's intriguing to me. The old style male looks like what I see in ASL these days."
Show me.


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## carmspack

this one - lacking sufficient angulation "
Speaking of angulation in ASLs, I actually admire this dogs structure. TIDMORES RISING STAR LOGAN


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## marbury

carmspack said:


> I don't agree with this at all !! "That's intriguing to me. The old style male looks like what I see in ASL these days."
> Show me.












Change the second male's stack a bit and they'd be quite similar.


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## Castlemaid

Carmen, can you separate your question from the posts you quote? I know you are asking HeidiGSD, but very hard to see what your question is the way you post.

If you want to quote a text, you can hit the "quote" button in the lower right-hand side of a post, and it will come up with in a window with the "" code wrapped around the text. 

They you can add your comments or questions underneath. Something like this:

This is what it will look like when you pick a post and hit "quote":



HeidiGS;4211410 said:


> Speaking of angulation in ASLs, I actually admire this dogs structure. TIDMORES RISING STAR LOGAN[ /QUOTE]
> 
> But this is what it looks like when the above is submited:
> 
> 
> HeidiGS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of angulation in ASLs, I actually admire this dogs structure. TIDMORES RISING STAR LOGAN
> 
> 
> 
> They you can type your question underneath like this:
> Why?
> 
> And it is easier to follow for everyone.
> 
> 
> You can also manually wrap the quote code around text that you copied from a post to have it come up in a quote box.
> 
> For example, start and end of quote had code (no spaces - spaces added just to illustrate the code, otherwise the software hides it) [ quote ][ /quote ] with your text in between the quote codes. You can type this in manually and it will work.
Click to expand...


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## HeidiGS

carmspack said:


> this one - lacking sufficient angulation "
> Speaking of angulation in ASLs, I actually admire this dogs structure. TIDMORES RISING STAR LOGAN


I know he isn't perfect to the standard, I just like how he's built. It's just an opinion.


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## HeidiGS

marbury said:


> Change the second male's stack a bit and they'd be quite similar.


I see what your talking about, but I still don't agree. It is intriguing though, makes me wonder where ASLs are going.


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## Anubis_Star

This is one of the top ranked bitches in the AKC (or at least she was 6 months ago). So apparently this is where ASL are heading, and im just going to leave it at that....

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## HeidiGS

Probably a good idea, I know that there are some great ASLs out there, but...


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## Konotashi

I'm sorry. I think it's disgusting to see a dog's entire hock resting on the ground. (Previously posted pic).


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## marbury

Konotashi said:


> I'm sorry. I think it's disgusting to see a dog's entire hock resting on the ground. (Previously posted pic).


I don't know the dog posted and am not defending her, but a lot of that has to do with how the dog is stacked. You can get some extreme stacks out of moderate dogs just by getting them low on the close foot, or hiking up their neck to force them off balance for the picture. There are still ASL folks who are going for the specialty style, and the dog might just be stacked to push that 'look' for the photo. I have pictures of one of my bitches where she looks like a specialty dog and others where she doesn't look angulated at all. Highly variable.


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## HeidiGS

marbury said:


> I don't know the dog posted and am not defending her, but a lot of that has to do with how the dog is stacked. You can get some extreme stacks out of moderate dogs just by getting them low on the close foot, or hiking up their neck to force them off balance for the picture. There are still ASL folks who are going for the specialty style, and the dog might just be stacked to push that 'look' for the photo. I have pictures of one of my bitches where she looks like a specialty dog and others where she doesn't look angulated at all. Highly variable.


Completely true, there are some ASLs I love and others I think are disgusting.


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## dogfaeries

Seriously, if you guys are going to talk about showline dogs then you really need to get a handle on the concept of stacking. I can stack Sage in various ways and get a whole lot of different looks. Same dog. Just good and bad stacks. And when she is NOT stacked, she looks different too. And, the "disgusting" remarks have to go. 

Here is an unattractive stack with Sage on her hock. The judge and the photographer were in a hurry. It was a LONG day, and they wanted to get these dogs photographed and get out of there:












Here is Sage stacked, hock sorta down:












Here is Sage, looking very lovely, not down on her hock at all:












And here is Sage, just standing around being Sage:










*SAME DOG.*


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## Anubis_Star

Honestly her hock is the least of my concerns..... BUT I'm trying not to bash just pointing out a top pointed dog at the moment

I have worked on several ASL that actually have calluses on their hocks from walking on them. I do think weak hocks/rear ends are being bred into SOME of these dogs while trying to achieve a more pronounced look

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## Anubis_Star

dogfaeries said:


> Seriously, if you guys are going to talk about showline dogs then you really need to get a handle on the concept of stacking. I can stack Sage in various ways and get a whole lot of different looks. Same dog. Just good and bad stacks. And when she is NOT stacked, she looks different too. And, the "disgusting" remarks have to go.
> 
> Here is an unattractive stack with Sage on her hock. The judge and the photographer were in a hurry. It was a LONG day, and they wanted to get these dogs photographed and get out of there:
> 
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> Here is Sage, looking very lovely, not down on her hock at all:
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> And here is Sage, just standing around being Sage:
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> *SAME DOG.*


Again my personal problem is not with her stack. Her rear end angulation isnt bad imo. What I feel is bad is her very pronounced roman nose, thin weak looking neck, top line looks off no true start to the withers, looks low in her pasterns

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## Courtney

I don't think Diane needs you feeling sorry for her girl. Unbelievable.

I think she is beautiful. Thank you for your valid point regarding stacking. I followed your other thread & you have worked darn hard with her


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## dogfaeries

Anubis_Star said:


> Again my personal problem is not with her stack. Her rear end angulation isnt bad imo. What I feel is bad is her very pronounced roman nose, thin weak looking neck, top line looks off no true start to the withers, looks low in her pasterns
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I was not posting photos of my dog asking for her to be critiqued, I was wanting to show that dogs photographed stacked on their hocks are often a result of bad placement, not wonky rears. 

As for your criticisms of her, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Further proving that photos on the internet don't always show the real dog.


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## Anubis_Star

dogfaeries said:


> I was not posting photos of my dog asking for her to be critiqued, I was wanting to show that dogs photographed stacked on their hocks are often a result of bad placement, not wonky rears.
> 
> As for your criticisms of her, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Further proving that photos on the internet don't always show the real dog.


Oh no I'm sorry not your dog! I think your dog is a beautiful dog, just to show that I'm not simply an ASL hater. Im sorry if it came across that I was judging your dog.

I was talking about the original photo I posted, saying that it wasn't actually the stack I questioned about the dog but other conformation features that made me concerned with where some people are breeding ASLs.

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## David Winners

Anubis_Star said:


> Oh no I'm sorry not your dog! I think your dog is a beautiful dog, just to show that I'm not simply an ASL hater. Im sorry if it came across that I was judging your dog.
> 
> I was talking about the original photo I posted, saying that it wasn't actually the stack I questioned about the dog but other conformation features that made me concerned with where some people are breeding ASLs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Then why would you quote Diane's post?

Not cool man.

David Winners


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## dogfaeries

Anubis_Star said:


> Oh no I'm sorry not your dog! I think your dog is a beautiful dog, just to show that I'm not simply an ASL hater. Im sorry if it came across that I was judging your dog.
> 
> I was talking about the original photo I posted, saying that it wasn't actually the stack I questioned about the dog but other conformation features that made me concerned with where some people are breeding ASLs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ah! Well, thank you. I was so confused since Sage doesn't have a big roman nose, a bad topline, skinny neck or weak pasterns! Yes, she has her faults, but not those particular ones.


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## dogfaeries

Hey, it's all fine. Just a misunderstanding.


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## GSxOwner

This was actually quite an interesting thread to read haha. Such differing opinions.


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## Konotashi

I personally don't prefer showlines, but I WILL comment that I like the fact the dog's ankles aren't touching one another in the last photo where she's standing naturally.

Cow hocks seem far too common, and yes, I've seen it in working lines as well. Not just a showline issue.

Another thing I'll add - loving the fact how some of you guys can tell if a dog is dysplasic by photos. Hahaha. (That was sarcasm, by the way).
Only way to tell if a dog has poor hips is with x-rays, not conformation.


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## Anubis_Star

David Winners said:


> Then why would you quote Diane's post?
> 
> Not cool man.
> 
> David Winners


I apologized immediately. 

I was trying to respond to just the top portion, about how many people just judge a dog by it's stack. I usually respond on my phone and I'll admit, I get lazy so tend to leave the whole post instead of deleting and just leaving the part im responding to. 

I apologize again and will try to make myself more clear in the future

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## Liesje

Different people will have different ideas of what is "down on the hock". To me anything less than, say, about a 90 degree angle still looks pretty down on the hock, not that it has to be completely flat.


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## HeidiGS

dogfaeries said:


> Seriously, if you guys are going to talk about showline dogs then you really need to get a handle on the concept of stacking. I can stack Sage in various ways and get a whole lot of different looks. Same dog. Just good and bad stacks. And when she is NOT stacked, she looks different too. And, the "disgusting" remarks have to go.
> 
> Here is an unattractive stack with Sage on her hock. The judge and the photographer were in a hurry. It was a LONG day, and they wanted to get these dogs photographed and get out of there:
> 
> http://www.dogfaeries.com/MiscPhotos/sage/stacks/sage_bos_harrison.
> 
> Here is Sage stacked, hock sorta down:
> 
> [IMG]http://www.dogfaeries.com/MiscPhotos/sage/stacks/sage_winners.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Sage, looking very lovely, not down on her hock at all:
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> And here is Sage, just standing around being Sage:
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> *SAME DOG.*


I apologize, your dog is beautiful and I didn't realize how extreme they could make it look.


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## holland

dogfaeries-your post was interesting never realized how different stacking can make a dog look


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## Liesje

dofaeries, which photo do you like best? I actually like the top photo the best, regardless of the hock (there's a lot more to a dog than a right hock). Pretty bitch.


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## onyx'girl

I look at the total structure, and how muscled the dog appears. Many times in the stacked show photo's show very little in the way of muscle or strength. The fluffy coat doesn't help. 

Even that last shot of the dog at a natural stance, I don't see a toned body....though it may just be the perspective.


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## David Winners

Here's a couple pictures of Fama, a Dutch WL GSD.

Not a stack, and just for comparison. The difference in angulation and pasterns is pretty notable. Not bashing at all here. IMHO, working lines and show lines are just about different breeds of dogs. They each serve their purpose.



















David Winners


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## Xeph

> I have worked on several ASL that actually have calluses on their hocks from walking on them.


I have a working line that has callouses all over his hocks. He actually has the worst hocks of any dog I've ever had.


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## Xeph

Here are several photos of my AmLine bitch...it is amazing what a stack can do


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## dogfaeries

onyx'girl said:


> I look at the total structure, and how muscled the dog appears. Many times in the stacked show photo's show very little in the way of muscle or strength. The fluffy coat doesn't help.
> 
> Even that last shot of the dog at a natural stance, I don't see a toned body....though it may just be the perspective.


It IS hard to see how muscular a dog is with a coat all fluffed up. 

Both my girls have spent a considerable amount of time over the last two years at the breeders house getting conditioned. She has 100' runs on the dirt, under the trees, that is terraced and has a gradual slope from one end to the other. Put dogs in these runs next to each other, and they run up and down up and down up and down (not fence fighting, or barking, just running up and down). It's great exercise, and the terracing makes them stretch out so they don't hit the landscaping timbers. It's like the flat (on the ground) cavalettis for horses.

I don't want to take a fat, out of shape dog in the ring, nor do I want to live with one either!


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## carmspack

David - they sure are !

there is a genetic component to the ability to build muscle and condition . Back in the day I handled more than a few show dogs . Some, no matter how much nutrition and road work you put into them just could not build muscle.


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## Liesje

A year ago (?) I made an image that had four different stacked GSD silhouettes and asked people to guess the line, age, and gender of each. The guesses were all over the place (though often people guessed the same for each of the four images, if that makes sense, like A = working line male, B = young WGSL, etc). The four images were all the SAME dog!


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## Josie/Zeus

Talk about muscle, my dog is all muscle! What's up with my showline? lol






This is probably his one and only stacked photo. I am horrible at stacking him.


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## Xeph

> Some, no matter how much nutrition and road work you put into them just could not build muscle.


It's true.

Wesson is in good condition, but you really can't see her muscle unless she's stacked up. And even then, I think we're close to what her max "bulk" muscle will be. We're still building endurance, but she's never going to have super bulging muscles like some people want to see.

My dog is still in good condition, but she's going to have lean runners muscles rather than thick body builder muscles.


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## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> My dog is still in good condition, but she's going to have lean runners muscles rather than thick body builder muscles.


That's true with mine as well.


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## dogfaeries

Liesje said:


> A year ago (?) I made an image that had four different stacked GSD silhouettes and asked people to guess the line, age, and gender of each. The guesses were all over the place (though often people guessed the same for each of the four images, if that makes sense, like A = working line male, B = young WGSL, etc). The four images were all the SAME dog!


I remember that! It was very enlightening.


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## holland

David Winners said:


> Here's a couple pictures of Fama, a Dutch WL GSD.
> 
> Not a stack, and just for comparison. The difference in angulation and pasterns is pretty notable. Not bashing at all here. IMHO, working lines and show lines are just about different breeds of dogs. They each serve their purpose.
> 
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> David Winners


Totally off topic-but I love your boots-want to get a pair-


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> A year ago (?) I made an image that had four different stacked GSD silhouettes and asked people to guess the line, age, and gender of each. The guesses were all over the place (though often people guessed the same for each of the four images, if that makes sense, like A = working line male, B = young WGSL, etc). The four images were all the SAME dog!


I would love to see that!


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## jafo220

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I have always loved the black and reds myself, but I like the body form of the black and tan better. I'm not a big fan of the.short snouts either. So if I were choosing for myself, I like the black and tan better as far as looks go.


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## onyx'girl

Xeph said:


> It's true.
> 
> Wesson is in good condition, but you really can't see her muscle unless she's stacked up. And even then, I think we're close to what her max "bulk" muscle will be. We're still building endurance, but she's never going to have super bulging muscles like some people want to see.
> 
> My dog is still in good condition, but she's going to have lean runners muscles rather than thick body builder muscles.


I don't think a GSD should have a bulky muscle mass either. BUT there should be some strength in the front and the rear. Josie/Zeus, your dog looks great.


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## Black Kali

I have a female, she is tall, leggy, finer boned but with very bulky muscles. 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_XB6yIsDKlc/UAEOXUAYOMI/AAAAAAAAFP8/4sxJfNCfB5A/s720/IMG_5549.jpg

She can easily jump on 2m (6,5 feet?) wall, and she's fast at short distances, but I don't think she is built for trotting and I'm not sure how that extra weight from bulky muscles would help her on the long run. 

So I think it depends of the dogs purpose. She is my pet and could excel in some sports but if I wanted a sheep herding dog I would not consider her for that job.


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## Rei

Hey, I want to play. Here are some of the pictures of my dog stacked that I've been posting around - 

Guess the type/lines of this dog!









This?









Take another look









Want to change your answer?









Yes, they're all of the same dog, and all taken around ages 3 - 4 years old! Here's one from a few weeks ago









From the front. Stacked, and free standing


















Two from the same day - stacked









Standing around










Altogether (click for a larger picture)


Same dog, completely working lines (primarily West German)


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## dogfaeries

I love him! ^


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## Rei

Thanks Diane! I'm pretty fond of him, too. Whatever he is, he's definitely a good sport for letting me stack him all the time


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## marbury

Even though the title of this thread includes "no showline bashing" folks certainly did a good job of being quite rude towards ASL dogs. Which, for those unaware, are American SHOW LINE dogs. Glad to see some more positive energy towards all types again. Love these comparisons! Very good illustrations of my point.


----------



## countryboy73703

I've never seen a forum with so much drama... maybe thats cause usually all of the forums I read are about trucks.. ha.. either way, still suprised


----------



## gsdsar

I have to say. I rarely, I don't think ever, jump into the ASL bashing that happens a lot. To each their own. I can appreciate all GSD, even if its not what I would buy. 

Yesterday I went to my first herding lesson with my puppy. The trainer is an ASL breeder as well. All of her dogs are working herding dogs as well as show dogs. Her dogs were gorgeous. Not extreme in angulation, nice pigment, good temperaments and able to herd, as GSD are meant to do, for hours. 

So, yes, there are extremes. Stacked photos often do not show a true conformation of the dog in a natural stance. 

I know what I like. But I know that I don't know everything. So, yeah. It's getting really old on this board. 


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## countryboy73703

I'm getting ready to pick my pup in a week at the 4 week mark, I'm kinda going for a pup with a lot of black in the face, but since they are only 3 weeks old it's hard to tell how they are going to look when they are older.. does anybody have a GSD that has a lot of black (not solid) in the face, and have a pic of when they were 3-4 weeks old so that maybe i can complare to my choices with my breeder.. thanks.. if you want you can PM me so that this thread doesn't get off topic, thanks.
-Josh


----------



## HeidiGS

dogfaeries said:


> I love him! ^


Me too, he's gorgeous!


----------



## onyx'girl

gsdsar said:


> I have to say. I rarely, I don't think ever, jump into the ASL bashing that happens a lot. To each their own. I can appreciate all GSD, even if its not what I would buy.
> 
> Yesterday I went to my first herding lesson with my puppy. The trainer is an ASL breeder as well. All of her dogs are working herding dogs as well as show dogs. Her dogs were gorgeous. Not extreme in angulation, nice pigment, good temperaments and able to herd, as GSD are meant to do, for hours.
> 
> So, yes, there are extremes. Stacked photos often do not show a true conformation of the dog in a natural stance.
> 
> I know what I like. But I know that I don't know everything. So, yeah. It's getting really old on this board.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe I missed it, but I saw only one "bashing" in this thread. There were comments about stacking the dog on the hock, but it was understood that it is the STACK not the dog that was being critiqued.


----------



## HeidiGS

Here's a picture a WL in a very exaggerated stack, just thought I'd share. I wish some of the people who comment on YouTube vids to bash Showlines would take a look at this thread.


----------



## onyx'girl

That dog doesn't look bad in the exaggerated stack, you can still see the structure and muscle tone.


----------



## HeidiGS

onyx'girl said:


> That dog doesn't look bad in the exaggerated stack, you can still see the structure and muscle tone.


I know, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I think the dog looks great.


----------



## Konotashi

HeidiGS said:


> Here's a picture a WL in a very exaggerated stack, just thought I'd share. I wish some of the people who comment on YouTube vids to bash Showlines would take a look at this thread.


Even overstretched, the hock isn't resting on the ground and the rear hock isn't at a 90° angle. Just overstretched and looks awkward in that position.

Not bashing, just pointing that out....


----------



## Rei

I do agree that the general attitude of the GSD community is that American show lines are not proper German Shepherds and whenever they are brought it, it is in a very negative context. I have seen this both online (not just on forums but on YouTube, Facebook, etc.) and out and about among even pet owners. 

I am frequently complimented on my dog's physical state, I am asked if he is an "Alsatian" because he has "good hips and structure". I am told that he has a lovely build and looks very young and strong. And often following those compliments? "Not at all like those American show dogs!". I understand that the comments are well meant, but it's very, very unfortunate that it must be at another dog/line/type's expense. My neighbor has a dog that is American x German show line mix but does not realize his dog is from show lines, because his dog has a level back and okay hips.

That said, I've seen quite an improvement in the attitude of this board when it comes to show lines - American show in particular. I think we have more Am show line breeders than we have had before, and there are always kind comments and fair critiques on the Critique My Dog threads. One member here wondered if my dog was part American show lines, and she/he was VERY complimentary and has had nothing but nice things to say about him. To put that into perspective, when others saw the same pictures on another website (media website, not a forum) they asked me if he was healthy and told me he was very extreme. 

I love the breed. I love working lines, will always have a working line, but I also like show lines. They are stunning, they are generally good natured, and they can have just as much energy and stamina as working line dogs. I have known of American show lines that can track and herd all day without thinking of stopping. Yes, there are things that the average American show line is not suited for. But I can say the same for working lines as well. There are faults and extremes in every type, some are just more visible and easy to point out in show lines. I can easily see why fanciers of Am show lines love them so much - I would be open to having one, eventually. If not for myself, then maybe for my family (who are now GSD fans as well). 

I think this thread has been civil and I am enjoying this discussion and the comparison photos that have been posted.



HeidiGS said:


> Me too, he's gorgeous!


Thank you 



HeidiGS said:


> Here's a picture a WL in a very exaggerated stack, just thought I'd share. I wish some of the people who comment on YouTube vids to bash Showlines would take a look at this thread.


I'm still not sure why the Eurosport dogs are all stacked like this. This dog has minimal to sufficient rear from what I can see, and I'm not sure if this picture is doing her any favors. I do think it demonstrates a good point, though. Maybe some people see this picture and wince at what they interpret as "slope" and "rear". But others who are even vaguely familiar with conformation/structure should be able to see past the stretched rear leg and slight slope. Neat, athletic looking dog, though!


----------



## lalachka

countryboy73703 said:


> I'm getting ready to pick my pup in a week at the 4 week mark, I'm kinda going for a pup with a lot of black in the face, but since they are only 3 weeks old it's hard to tell how they are going to look when they are older.. does anybody have a GSD that has a lot of black (not solid) in the face, and have a pic of when they were 3-4 weeks old so that maybe i can complare to my choices with my breeder.. thanks.. if you want you can PM me so that this thread doesn't get off topic, thanks.
> -Josh


The breeder shouldn't give you a pup at 4 weeks, 8 weeks is the minimum. They must spend this time with their litter and their mom even if she might not be nursing them.


----------



## Konotashi

lalachka said:


> The breeder shouldn't give you a pup at 4 weeks, 8 weeks is the minimum. They must spend this time with their litter and their mom even if she might not be nursing them.


Sounds like the breeder is letting then pick, not necessarily take them home. 
If you only want a dark face (and the breeder will let you choose a puppy based on just that), I'd do more research and find another breeder.
Also, most puppies at 4 weeks old have pretty much all black faces. More often than not, it fades to a mask and some black on the forehead.


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## Liesje

For me, stacking is like the nature vs. nurture debate. Sure you can stack a dog differently and get different looks. However, you can only change *so* much with a stack. Certain faults will always be present without serious grooming or photoshopping. You can create the illusion of slightly more or less angulation but you can't really pull something out of a hat.


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## countryboy73703

Konotashi said:


> Sounds like the breeder is letting then pick, not necessarily take them home.
> If you only want a dark face (and the breeder will let you choose a puppy based on just that), I'd do more research and find another breeder.
> Also, most puppies at 4 weeks old have pretty much all black faces. More often than not, it fades to a mask and some black on the forehead.


thanks for clearing this up, yes I'm only PICKING at 4 weeks, I don't get her until 8 weeks.

The reason I brought this up was I just want the adult or grown pup to have a lot of black, I like that look especially in the face, but I"m not picky, this is my first GSD, I've already had Lab's or lab mix. I was just trying to see if there was a way to tell when they are 4 weeks old, which ones are going to have more black in the face as an adult, and was trying to get before and after pictures of people whom have dogs like what i'm looking for. thanks

-Josh


----------



## lalachka

Konotashi said:


> Sounds like the breeder is letting then pick, not necessarily take them home.
> If you only want a dark face (and the breeder will let you choose a puppy based on just that), I'd do more research and find another breeder.
> Also, most puppies at 4 weeks old have pretty much all black faces. More often than not, it fades to a mask and some black on the forehead.


Ohh, I misunderstood. Thank you


----------



## dogfaeries

Veering off topic a bit, but I personally love a dark face too. Do the sire and dam of this litter have dark faces?


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## countryboy73703

it's ok, you were the only one, and I think it was my fault the way that I worded it.

and the Sire does, but the Dam has hardly any. the sire has a lot of balck all around actually, and the dam is more tan then black. 

we can move over to PM so we don't change topic if you'd like


----------



## Freestep

If you really, really want a dog with a dark face, then you should look for a breeding where both the sire and dam have dark faces. You cannot tell at 4 weeks or even 8 weeks which pup is going to have a darker face, as they all lighten up a lot in their first year (unless the pup is a bicolor or black dog).

I too really like the look of a dark face, and if I had to choose between two identical pups, I'd pick the pup with more black--but to me, color and markings are probably the least important things when looking for your new companion. You want to pick the right temperament for your family and of course physical health is very important. If you're already sold on this particular litter, I'd go in "color blind" and pick the pup whose personality fits best with yours. 

I assume both parents are black/tan saddlebacks? It seems to me that males tend to retain more black on their faces than do females.


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## countryboy73703

as I research more I agree.. and ofcoarse I'm not going to base my decision on looks, but I do have to pick next money with only pictures, and a brief personality desription since they are in dallas tx. 8 hours away from me, I'm going to meet them half way to get the pup so I gotta pick before I can really have a personal experience with any of them. but they are good about keeping the pictures updated weekly, and are going to give me a personality and charactor description before I choose. I have the 3rd pick out of 6 females so I'll have options.


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## HeidiGS

I know this is off topic, but I'm still looking for help on a breeder. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/334466-searching-breeder.html


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## TAR HEEL MOM

OK..I finally got a decent picture of Tar on my camera phone. Still a little grainy but you can see it well enough to give me an opinion. I have a couple of questions. Just looking at the picture, without knowing any history of the dog what "line" would you say he is? Now...after several generations of his predecessors not being involved with showing or training or agility or herding or anything...(I am assuming here).... would it even matter as far as temperament and character?


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## doggiedad

HeidiGS and lalachka research "roach".

HeidiGS, GSD's with a "roach" or "slant" don't mainly have hd.
i don't think a "roach" or a "slant" contributes to hd.



doggiedad said:


> some GSD's have a "roach".
> 
> QUOTE=lalachka;4210858]I never knew that. I thought that's where the problems stemmed from. Oops
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


[/QUOTE]



So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?[/QUOTE]



HeidiGS said:


> So that's where it comes from? People breeding for the slope (the more the better) and ending up with HD?


No, not necessarily. But most that breed for a slope have HD show up.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Whiteshepherds

TAR HEEL MOM said:


>


Nice looking dog IMHO.


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## onyx'girl

Tar looks like Onyx's mom and some of her littermates. 
I don't have her pedigree to know what she's 'mixed' with, but I assume WGWL and the good ol' American Pet line! 
Her temperament isn't the best, not very biddable and when she was young was fear aggressive. She's a dominant bully(fear based?) with other dogs that she doesn't know. 
A dog that isn't really into training and her own agenda is more important than pleasing her handlers.


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## TAR HEEL MOM

Just got in from work. Sorry for posting pic and then running off. I figured he was just "Good Old American Pet Line" also  Is that a GOAPL? We have coined a new acronym.

Anyway, his temperament is great. He loves most other dogs that I have had him with and never seems fearful ro nervy. The fireworks and thunder don't even get him stressed. He looks at my lab who is slobbering in the corner like, "Dude..it's only thunder."

I'm still curious about whether or not his "ancestors" would have any effect on him a few generations removed. I am assuming that he parents and grandparents have all just been pets.


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## onyx'girl

Do you have any pedigree info on him? He is handsome! I think many of the GOAPL's(lol) are often great pets. I am an admin on a local GSD facebook page, and most of the owners have pet lines. The dogs all seem to be healthy and of great temperament. And not many of the owners are in any formal training with them. They are their 'furbabies' that are active family pets.


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## TAR HEEL MOM

I will have a pedigree soon. I posted another thread in the pedigree forum about registering him. Long story but his parents were CKC registered and I had never wasted the time or money with that registry. However...curiosity got the best of me, so I spent the $25 just to see who his grandparents and greatgrands were. I should have it soon and I will post it. There might at least be some local North Carolina dog names that someone might recognize.


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## lalachka

doggiedad said:


> HeidiGS and lalachka research "roach".



I know what a roach is. Didn't the roach happen by people breeding for the slope and overdoing it? I can't find anyone explaining how roach back happened. 


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## Liesje

People who breed for it like it and will never admit they've overdone anything


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## lalachka

Liesje said:


> People who breed for it like it and will never admit they've overdone anything


That's sad. It's not the dogs' fault but they're the ones suffering


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## Freestep

lalachka said:


> I know what a roach is. Didn't the roach happen by people breeding for the slope and overdoing it? I can't find anyone explaining how roach back happened.


I once had a breeder tell me that a roach back is actually stronger and holds up better over time. Think like the architectural strength and stability of Roman archways. He said that whereas straight-backed dogs will eventually become swaybacked as they age, the roach-backed dogs will not.

I have no idea whether this is true or not, but it sounded kind of hokey to me. I don't notice a lot of swaybacked older GSDs.


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## Liesje

Well, it is true architecturally and maybe there is a hint of truth when it comes to the dogs, but that doesn't mean the back should look like a half circle, super steep or no croup. You have to consider what else is being changed or sacrificed in order to get the amount of "arch". I don't like sway backs either. No reason a GSD can't have a strong, firm topline either straight or slightly curved.


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## onyx'girl

Look at this roach back...


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## Courtney

LOL, Jane, that's great


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## lalachka

Freestep said:


> I once had a breeder tell me that a roach back is actually stronger and holds up better over time. Think like the architectural strength and stability of Roman archways. He said that whereas straight-backed dogs will eventually become swaybacked as they age, the roach-backed dogs will not.
> 
> I have no idea whether this is true or not, but it sounded kind of hokey to me. I don't notice a lot of swaybacked older GSDs.


Lol hokey sounds about right. So we are comparing dogs to buildings now. 

It's amazing the stuff people can spin when they want to sell something. So now it's not a bug, it's a feature. They actually strived for the roach and the goal was achieved. 

A+ for creativity.


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## lalachka

Lies, what's a 'sway back'?


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## Konotashi

Never heard the term 'sway back.'

Seems like that'd be more of an issue with a weak back-end, not so much the spine itself....

I know that my mom's pit bull has a very firm back while she's walking (she does have a roach) but she's also got stumpy-ish legs and is a mix of solid muscle, heavy bone, and fat.... And needless to say, her conformation is basically incomparable to a GSD's. Haha.


----------



## sparra

lalachka said:


> Lies, what's a 'sway back'?


Picture a horse who has had 10 foals.......


----------



## LoveEcho

An alarming number of the GSD's advertised as "old-fashioned straight-back" are actually sway-backed. The midline of the back is lower than the shoulder or the croup.


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## Liesje

Sway back is when the back is "soft", dips down. Opposite of roach.


----------



## Merciel

Here's a picture of a sway back (just nabbed it off GIS real quick, and the horse examples were more extreme than the dog examples so easier to see):










Sway back is different from a dog with a strongly muscled shoulder and rear, which can appear to have a "dipped" back just because the bulk of the muscle causes either end to appear raised.


----------



## wildo

"a roached back is more strong, architecturally speaking- like a bridge" 

What nonsense. What a lack of understanding of mechanics of MOVEMENT and POWER TRANSFER. Last time I checked, I'm not driving a car over my dog's back or piling loads of saddle bags on their back! No- I'm asking my dog to power _forward_! The person who told that to freestep sounds rather ignorant. The croup angle and back symmetry are the way they are for a reason, namely power transfer.


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## lalachka

sparra said:


> Picture a horse who has had 10 foals.......


Lol I don't want to)))))))


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## marbury

Meh... my issue with watching the 'roach back' look move in the ring is that I can't help but get this squirmy feeling that the dog is constantly milliseconds away from popping a squat to poop. And I have seen some "proudly imported from Germany" pet dogs back at the dog park in Savannah that have such a roach that it looks like they cannot properly move their hind end, like their hips are so twerked upwards that moving their knee forward causes it to knock into their ribcage. Like any aspect of conformation, it can be taken to extremes.


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## HeidiGS

I love this thread, and I've learned so much from it!  thanks guys for your replies!


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## carmspack

NOT like Dingo v haus Gero !!!! Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## HeidiGS

Wow, those are worse than a lot I've seen!


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## marbury

carmspack said:


> NOT like Dingo v haus Gero !!!! Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


Obviously! You're comparing specialty dogs to a working animal. But you didn't comment on the comparison I showed you of another ASL. You will find good and bad examples if you look hard enough, I promise. We cannot engage in dialogue if we only pick the bad apples that support our cause; we have to consider all the aspects of the lines we're trying to represent.

Thus, I absolute concede that there are a plethora of oddly-proportioned specialty ASLs. I also insist that there are specimens of the same that are actually quite comparable in first-glance conformation to the great Dingo.


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## carmspack

The dogs pictured were top level competitors at the annual GSDC of Canada specialty show . Dogs were USA bred, judge was Jimmy Moses .

provided by Anubis "top ranked AKC " (see picture)

THESE are going to be the dogs bred and influencing the breed so years down the road these will be the ancestors of the dogs in the ring -- 





NOT like Dingo v h Gero


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## carmspack

take a look at the banner GSDCC - Temperament Evaluation Qualifiers

dog taking jump with dumbbell -- clearly, obviously not ASLs nor GSLs , second dog to the right represents some ideal of dog in motion ,or it wouldn't be there. yikes - NOT like Dingo v h Gero.


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## HeidiGS

Wow, they shouldn't have put a WL up there.


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## Andaka

What about this dog?


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## HeidiGS

It looks like an ASL, if it is its a nice looking one.


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## Andaka

How does he look like an ASL?


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## HeidiGS

I thought it looked like a more extended trot, and the dog is obviously Blk and tan. Is it a working line?


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## capolini1226

The only thing I can say[ A friend showed me comparison pics. and I go by my memory!] is that most GSD dogs of the 50's, 60's and before that were leaner, lighter and their rear quarters were noticeably more parallel to the ground lacking HD.

Just about every breed has been over bred because of selfishness, greed and the lack of doing what is right.

There are numerous pics. demonstrating this from the 1930's on the website germanshepherd100years.com/centennial-blog.

Ciao,,,Roberto

*Capo "Cochise" Mazur-b.12.26.2010-Siberian Husky
Cochise Von Mazur-5.27.82-5.20.97-GSD/Malamute
Baron Von Mazur-6.5.65-7.20.77-GSD
*


----------



## carmspack

the dog you show has no period of suspension . 3 on the ground .

see illustration C http://workingdogs.com/lshaw1.htm#chitika_close_button


----------



## HeidiGS

The only objection that I have to that article is that is doesn't simply state that there are beautiful exceptions in the show lines. I've seen some gorgeous Showlines. And, forgive me, but there are working lines who have too straight of a back. Not trying to start an argument, and a lot of its true, but I think they should state that there are exceptions. Here are some modern dogs I like, ambassadors for each line. I'm aware that these dogs don't fit the standard perfectly, I just like how they're built.

A German Showline I Like:
V (BSZS) Tinka von der Waterkant

A American Showline I like:
CH. (US) Breezewood's Genuine Damascus Steele

A Working Line I like:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...D6swoKbZQTWWdxd8f4mK8YA&bvm=bv.53371865,d.aWM


----------



## Xeph

> most GSD dogs of the 50's, 60's and before that were leaner, lighter and their rear quarters were noticeably more parallel to the ground *lacking HD.*


Not true at all


----------



## carmspack

here is a good one - Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## HeidiGS

She does look good!


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## marbury

This is my retired bitch, totally out of coat, at our last show. ASL.

Carmen, critique my bitch's movement.


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## HeidiGS

I know you asked Carmen, but her movement looks very good from what little bit I do know.


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## marbury

HeidiGS said:


> I know you asked Carmen, but her movement looks very good from what little bit I do know.


I agree with you! Just waiting to hear back from the authority here. I'm really intent on illustrating that ASL can have just as much to offer in movement as the touted Dingo. Any other folks are also welcome to critique her movement, of course.


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## carmspack

thank you for waiting , so here you go -- look again 
Dingo v h Gero was chosen as an illustration of balance in motion 




 

balance in movement , OPENING of SHOULDER , head level with back , no lifting , which makes reach look greater because you have brought the muzzle back- no lifting of front end. 

Look at picture # 5 , that is beautiful economy of movement !!!!! nice long upper arm for that reach . Level topline . Picture #4 shows thrust from rear leg for propulsion.

again "von Lord Fandor"

buy yourself the Sue Barwig book the encyclopedic book This is the German Shepherd and look at Hessians Baldur , the reach of GV Hessian's Vogue (rom) , Hessians Tinsel for examples of excellence - reach and drive.

A US judge Ann Mesdag told me that you should be able to picture a wine glass on the dogs back and not a drop being spilled --- level ---


----------



## carmspack

no lifting - (from Fred Lanting article) 











often you see dogs with 3 feet on the ground , no opening of hock for thrust , too much angles, too long , too heavy , too soft - lacking conditioning

rarely do you see suspension as in this example , given by Fred Lanting


----------



## HeidiGS

Gorgeous! I love the movement of the second dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Carmen not to go OT, but whatever happened to "Trommel?" I spoke to him many years ago, was going to get a dog from him, but he didn't have anything at the time, he was such a knowledgeable person, and I LOVED the dogs he was producing


----------



## carmspack

I sent one of my females to a Trommel heavy male -- I'll have to dig my files because I took a chance and lost the gamble -- no pups .
About two years later a man , bought two males from me to add to his lines carrying von Trommel .

I'll dig for those names and see if I can't connect you.

the person knew I used Yoncalla's Mike and Arco and Bodo Grafental , which was his cross, so had anything come of the breeding they also would have been interested in the litter for themselves 

They had bone, conformation, balance and could work.

they are in my background


----------



## carmspack

If you want to make a comparison to Dingo I would say "Jasmin" is pretty darn close . 

The picture of Atrice Klammle shows a very dramatic, exciting flying trot -- something which got the ASLs into the predicament they are in now , meaning the emphasis on side movement -- . Flying trot is meant to be an over drive , not the automatic movement. Even so I can not ever recall having seen a dog in flying trot to run down the decoy, make an apprehension, catch up when running down the road to join me . That would be a gallop . 

The balance of the body for a workman like all day comfortable trot is important . Just as , even more so, is a balance in mind and character .

Enjoy the dogs not so long ago --

1963 Select Gallery

enjoy looking at the older Kirschental herding dogs (till around the late 1980's when there was a shift)
Zwinger vom Kirschental und vom Haus Kirschental - history Karl Füller


----------



## carmspack

ms Jakoda you were asking about von Trommel and I said I would flip through my files to find the pedigree of a breeding which I very much hoped for , as did the owner of the stud .

The stud dogs name was Dutch Hill Zial ---

His sire was Trommels Cobra , a son of Degen who was son of Bodo Grafental !
pedigree of Cobra Trommel's Cobra

here is where some following is required . Cobra was bred to Trommels Symphony who is a daughter of Neumann's Jim V CH (US) Neumann's Jim 

there is a listing for Symphony but the information for her dam Obba has not been provided, but is available through her littermate brother Otto v d Trommel Otto von der Trommel

the female I sent down was Carmspack Kimarli

we had guide dog schools keenly interested in the offspring . no pups. none with 'marli , none with other females -


----------



## Anubis_Star

Can I ask this - WHY the elongated stack? Why the entire hock placed on the ground? It makes a dog look WEAK. What could it ever positively emphasize? Just visually those 1963 selects looked night and day from the 2002 selects.

I understand a stack is just that - a stack. However if you're constantly having to defend the dog's TRUE conformation against every non-show ring person, and frankly if everyone but the few conformation people think it makes the dog's conformation look horrendous, unhealthy, and undesirable, then why do it?

(Note I'm not bashing showline dogs, I'm criticizing the extreme stacks they are put into that IMHO do no good for their overall appearance)

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----------



## carmspack

it isn't just the stack , the dog has a disproportionately lengthened lower thigh of the leg - taken from Fred Lanting called “AKC type.”








Most modern AKC-type GSDs have been bred for an extremely exaggerated length of lower thigh and a placement of the metatarsus (when vertical) that is much further behind the pelvis than the founders of the breed specified. Since front-limb angulation cannot possibly match this exaggeration, and the last 40 or more years has seen “AKC GSDs” become almost totally lacking in front-limb angulation, such dogs often move with a high “goose-stepping” gait in front, and incomplete extension of the hock at the end of that rear limb’s extension, thus wasting time and effort in a breed whose claim to fame and utility once was its efficiency of movement, in addition to its character. (See other articles of mine on gait and structure.) I have also seen “locked hocks” in Afghan Hounds and other breeds. In some cases it is indeed an inability of the ligaments to allow full extension, and in others it is merely the result of an upright shoulder/upper-arm combined with overdone stifle angulation—the dog must waste time by lifting (“goose-stepping”) in front while the rear limb finishes its longer stride.

so what Lanting shows is the 3 on the floor - no suspension , compare to "Jazmin" or Dingo.

a competitor at the 2011 Westminster










add this http://www.leabashiba.com/fashion.vs.GSD.htm


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## Anubis_Star

carmspack said:


> it isn't just the stack , the dog has a disproportionately lengthened lower thigh of the leg - taken from Fred Lanting called “AKC type.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most modern AKC-type GSDs have been bred for an extremely exaggerated length of lower thigh and a placement of the metatarsus (when vertical) that is much further behind the pelvis than the founders of the breed specified. Since front-limb angulation cannot possibly match this exaggeration, and the last 40 or more years has seen “AKC GSDs” become almost totally lacking in front-limb angulation, such dogs often move with a high “goose-stepping” gait in front, and incomplete extension of the hock at the end of that rear limb’s extension, thus wasting time and effort in a breed whose claim to fame and utility once was its efficiency of movement, in addition to its character. (See other articles of mine on gait and structure.) I have also seen “locked hocks” in Afghan Hounds and other breeds. In some cases it is indeed an inability of the ligaments to allow full extension, and in others it is merely the result of an upright shoulder/upper-arm combined with overdone stifle angulation—the dog must waste time by lifting (“goose-stepping”) in front while the rear limb finishes its longer stride.
> 
> so what Lanting shows is the 3 on the floor - no suspension , compare to "Jazmin" or Dingo.
> 
> a competitor at the 2011 Westminster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> add this http://www.leabashiba.com/fashion.vs.GSD.htm


Well.... I was TRYING not to bash by avoiding outright asking why dogs with such extreme rear ends are even being considered, but since the usual defense is "it's just the stack" I figured I would ask then why do we out them in such an extreme stack

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## HeidiGS

I do know how bad the over angulated dogs are, but there are some ASLs I like the structure of more than any working line.


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## Whiteshepherds

Anubis_Star said:


> Can I ask this - WHY the elongated stack? Why the entire hock placed on the ground? It makes a dog look WEAK. What could it ever positively emphasize? Just visually those 1963 selects looked night and day from the 2002 selects.
> 
> I understand a stack is just that - a stack. However if you're constantly having to defend the dog's TRUE conformation
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


I've often wondered the same thing. Why is the entire hock placed on the ground by some handlers?


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## marbury

Whiteshepherds said:


> I've often wondered the same thing. Why is the entire hock placed on the ground by some handlers?


Again, I can't speak for the handlers that make that choice, but conformation is full of everything from exaggeration to flat out fabrication.

Grooming can create something out of nothing. Adding bone, adding chest, minimizing topline or coat faults, enhancing height at the withers or appearance of the head. These days conformation favors the extremes. They want micro toys and macro giants. They want solid blacks without a single white hair or solid whites without a single speck of dirt. Hair has to be unrealistically quaffed, straightened. Tibetan mastiffs and pekinese come to mind.
Even gaits have to be extreme in some venues. Watched an AKC min pin BOB lately? What about iggies? Any standard that calls for a specific aspect of movement is game, and specialties bring out the caricatures as well as the illustrations.

That's why I show primarily in UKC, or at least all-breed. I enjoy the type of dogs I have and I find them pleasing. But when I venture into AKC I need to play the game to have any hope of placing. I'll buff and puff and primp and preen my dogs and they look completely different than they do on the couch. I can stack them low or I can stack them steady; either way, their movement and conformation does not change. What changes is the 'picture' the judge snaps when he looks around that ring. If I know he wants to see leg for miles, I make my bitch look leggy. If I know he's consistently passed over angulated dogs I'll keep them blocky.


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## Xeph

I'm going to be that person that admits they don't like Jazmin at all. I look at her and see unbalanced. I see lack of balance in the other pictures posted as well. The timing is off on the photos.

Jazmin had one foot still on the ground it looked like, and I thought the opening of her shoulder could have been better...doesn't compare to Dingo at all (just my opinion).


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## JakodaCD OA

carmen thanks for the info,,interesting..I went to Trommel at the time because the male I had, was a Bodo grandson out of stolzenfels. Stolzenfels was used at the time in the FIdelco program..The male I had was a really nice stable/balanced dog..thanks again,


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## carmspack

there were basically two foundational stud lines used by guide and seeing eye (trademarked names) breeding programs. They were Bodo Grafental and Bodo Lierberg. These are the basis of the female that I sent for the breeding to the Trommel bred male , whose sire was a Bodo Grafental grandson, which I believe was as close as you could get in that time period. 

The Stolzenfels that you are thinking of was Jamie Stolzenfels , a Bodo Grafental daughter , who was beautifully bred to HGH Sieger Gauner Kirschental to produce G Ingo Degen V Fernheim .


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## carmspack

go back and look at these pictures 

it isn't just the stack , the dog has a disproportionately lengthened lower thigh of the leg - taken from Fred Lanting called “AKC type.”









and compare them to Dingo , Jazmin, Atrice . Look at the front leg being swept under the body , straight , to the center , clearing the rear leg , and deep under the body . Then look at the picture above. LONG loose pasterns (which make it look like extension) and the leg drawing back just under the shoulder and the length of pastern flipping up or curling up because there is no real reach or shoulder opening . The dog in caption two , you can see the collapse of the pastern in the leg under the body. That looks painful .


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## Freestep

HeidiGS said:


> I do know how bad the over angulated dogs are, but there are some ASLs I like the structure of more than any working line.


Really? Which ones? Pictures please.


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## HeidiGS

Ok, I'll go try and find those dogs. There were only a few of them.


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## HeidiGS

Drummer - Karma Performance there's one I like a lot. Sorry they don't have a stacked photo, I could ask for one if you want.


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## Liesje

I'm pretty sure I've met that dog. I did an instinct test with Kelly years back and I think that was the dog she had along.


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## JakodaCD OA

Sooo interesting The male I had, Jake, was out of Otto Stolzenfels, (used by fidelco as well) who was out of Bodo Grafental..Loved that dog..A 'natural' at alot of things


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## Anubis_Star

HeidiGS said:


> Drummer - Karma Performance there's one I like a lot. Sorry they don't have a stacked photo, I could ask for one if you want.


I dont like his movement. He's running on his hocks. How is that structurally sound or well balanced?

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## HeidiGS

Well, everyone has different opinions. His movement isn't my favorite for that, but he's still gorgeous.


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## Anubis_Star

HeidiGS said:


> Well, everyone has different opinions. His movement isn't my favorite for that, but he's still gorgeous.


I understand and respect that. However I do feel that viewpoints like that can greatly hurt the breed, especially in the show ring.

A hock, an anatomical structure that should never touch the ground, that bangs on the ground when the dog moves should not be something that is simply looked over because otherwise the dog is "beautiful". That is a HUGE structural weakness that overall greatly affects movement and working ability. That should be a huge NO NO, never bred, never even considered top stock, because you have a huge confirmation disability. I cant even imagine how that would eventually feel. What long term problems and pain that would cause to the dog.

IMHO

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## HeidiGS

Yes, I understand that. I wouldn't choose a dog like that as a working or show prospect either. But it doesn't effect their ability to be great companions, protectors, or pets.


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## Anubis_Star

HeidiGS said:


> Yes, I understand that. I wouldn't choose a dog like that as a working or show prospect either. But it doesn't effect their ability to be great companions, protectors, or pets.


You are right, not at all.  They can still be great dogs. They should just never be used for breeding purposes. 

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## Freestep

HeidiGS said:


> Drummer - Karma Performance there's one I like a lot. Sorry they don't have a stacked photo, I could ask for one if you want.





HeidiGS said:


> Yes, I understand that. I wouldn't choose a dog like that as a working or show prospect either. But it doesn't effect their ability to be great companions, protectors, or pets.


What is it you like about that dog?


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## HeidiGS

Freestep said:


> What is it you like about that dog?


I like how it's been bred for a working job, I think it also has decent structure for an ASL.


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## Anubis_Star

HeidiGS said:


> I like how it's been bred for a working job, I think it also has decent structure for an ASL.


But the thing is, he doesnt honestly have decent structure in his rear end. 

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## carmspack

Rissa - Karma Performance

I applaud the owner / trainer in their involvement with their dogs .

Critically though much wrong.


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## HeidiGS

Anubis_Star said:


> But the thing is, he doesnt honestly have decent structure in his rear end.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yep.


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## Anubis_Star

Ive always been fond of Clokellys Lagos, the 2010 crufts BOB. KKL 1, IPO3. No extremes. I think they are starting to go in the correct direction if this is what they continue to pick. I have however never been able to see him in motion so obviously pictures can only tell so much.

I do NOT like his pedigree. Sire has an extreme break in his topline, dam isnt impressive, great-dam on his dams side has a very obvious roach. Not breedings I would ever agree with but they produced a decent dog. Does make you question his breeding ability though if he has more extremes in his recent pedigree. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=645467-clokellys-lagos

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## carmspack

good choice Anubis -- once again , one problem and that is SIZE . (?) At least he appears to be large in perspective with the handler (at least in the attached thumbnails) . The SV currently has an active agenda to reduce the size of some of these dogs .


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## Liesje

He does look big. Also his topline looks kind of broken, steep rear end.


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## carmspack

but you do have good feet, pasterns, balance overall and apparent secondary sex characteristics - male that looks male


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## Liesje

Sure, I just don't personally like the overall type.


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## Freestep

HeidiGS said:


> I do know how bad the over angulated dogs are, but there are some ASLs I like the structure of more than any working line.





HeidiGS said:


> I like how it's been bred for a working job, I think it also has decent structure for an ASL.


It is nice to see an ASL dog working!

Just curious, what is it about his structure that you like better than the working lines? Is it the angulation, movement, or ?


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## Anubis_Star

carmspack said:


> good choice Anubis -- once again , one problem and that is SIZE . (?) At least he appears to be large in perspective with the handler (at least in the attached thumbnails) . The SV currently has an active agenda to reduce the size of some of these dogs .


You are correct on that and I didnt even notice that. One thing I'm always fighting against in these dogs is size. Size is a DOWNFALL to health and working ability. I think like you said otherwise, I like his angulations and other things, and especially considering the dogs I've seen placed by crufts in the last decade I would gladly sacrifice a little size to get a botter conformed dog.

As far as type - I would gladly take this dog over most ASL/WGSL I see today.

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## Liesje

Another Crufts BOB (I think...?), different pics same dog


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## HeidiGS

Freestep said:


> It is nice to see an ASL dog working!
> 
> Just curious, what is it about his structure that you like better than the working lines? Is it the angulation, movement, or ?


I think an extended trot is beautiful, but that's just a personal opinion. In all other aspects with this particular dog, I like working lines better. hope that answers your questions.


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## HeidiGS

Here's a Crufts dog I like a lot: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...J6cJtEYBy8gArqFgmstgn6A&bvm=bv.53899372,d.aWc, VA1(UK) SG20 CH Elmo vom Hühnegrab, and 



. All the same dog.


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## carmspack

you have winners bitch and winners dog running against each other for best of breed 

It is hard to tell which is which -- a male needs to be obviously masculine . Some of the "pretty" dogs are missing distinct secondary sex characteristics .

*German Shepherd Dog -







Female *

*SEUCH FINUCH Trönderjyckens Harley *


*SCHH1*
* Kkl 1 *

*Dam born : 23. September 2009*


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## carmspack

here is Elmo in the pedigree data base 
*German Shepherd Dog -







Male *

*VA1(UK) SG20 CH Elmo vom Hühnegrab *


*SCHH3*
* Kkl 1 *

*Sire Born : 10. August 2006*




_SZ 2188000_




do both dogs look to be a different colour in the ring?

In the pedigree data base the female is lighter than in the ring (from what can be made out mind you) , and the male Elmo in the pedigree data base picture looks much darker, than in the ring?? (just me?)


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## HeidiGS

carmspack said:


> here is Elmo in the pedigree data base
> *German Shepherd Dog -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Male *
> 
> *VA1(UK) SG20 CH Elmo vom Hühnegrab *
> 
> 
> *SCHH3*
> * Kkl 1 *
> 
> *Sire Born : 10. August 2006*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SZ 2188000_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do both dogs look to be a different colour in the ring?
> 
> In the pedigree data base the female is lighter than in the ring (from what can be made out mind you) , and the male Elmo in the pedigree data base picture looks much darker, than in the ring?? (just me?)


It's probably just lighting in photos, but I did notice that.


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