# Schutzhund Training without bitework?



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm a complete noob to Schutzhund and have contacted some clubs in the area but still waiting to hear back.
Is it a faux pas to do only tracking and obedience without the protection?
The reason I ask is that Ontario Canada has some strict new laws about "dangerous breeds" with punishments that include fine/prison/banned from owning dogs in the future/etc. and if any accidents ever occur, I don't want to be sued and accused of training a killing machine.
I would just like to compete with Jax and see how well we could do in the other two.
Would this make me a complete outcast?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The SchH organizations do allow for obedience and tracking titles to be pursued separately, without bitework.

Whether or not an individual club would allow it would of course come down to that club. It wouldn't necessarily make you an outcast, no, though you'd probably get some weird looks.  

But do be aware that one thing most SchH clubs face is that there are often far more people interested in doing SchH than clubs can accomodate. I know I'm frequently turning away people who would probably make excellent additions to our club, simply due to the fact that we've reached the saturation point of how many people we can accomodate given limited time and other resources. Unfortunately most other clubs in this area are full, or close to it as well. This is a very common situation in some areas.

There are many other venues and organizations where one could pursue tracking and obedience titles without protection. Most of these titles are somewhat different from SchH style obedience and tracking, but of course still allow for enjoying training in those phases and pursuing titles. Many clubs will turn away folks who don't want to do protection not because they necessarily have anything against someone now wanting to do protection, but because given the number of people who do often is greater than what clubs can handle, it just makes more sense for them to take on the members who want to fully participate in all phases of SchH and steer those interested just in tracking and obedience to other organizations and clubs.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it depends on how you go about it. 

You can get titles like OB1 or TR1 without protection, luckily protection is the only thing you CANT do on it's own.

Our club asks that everyone train all three phases, but that's not because we think protection is crucial, but because we get a lot of prospective members that aren't really looking to do SchH at all, they want help with obedience or behavior problems, or they think that b/c their dog pulls and sniffs while on walks it will be a champion tracker. We want people who are committed to the club and the sport as a whole, which means sticking around the entire day even if skipping out on a phase. I go to training even if my dog is sick or for whatever reason has to sit out. So, if you are committed to the sport and to being fully involved in the club, I don't think it would be as big of a deal. I have one dog that does only obedience, no bitework or tracking, but I balance that by being an officer of the club, helping out with as much as I can, trying to be the first person there and the last to leave, and having a second dog that is very involved in all three phases.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The protection phase is about obedience as well as the bitework. It isn't Personal Protection or attack training. The dog bites a sleeve and is taught to out on command. And most dogs trained in the sport are more reliable on commands (as obedience is critical) than those that are just a pet dog that might bite someone unexpectedly. Of course there are always exceptions.
So in my opinion if you were sued because your dog bit someone, it wouldn't have much at all to do with being involved in SchH but that the dog has issues, and most clubs don't accept dogs with unsteady temperaments.
And it could probably be proven in court that just because a dog is SchH trained, it is not a threat to society, but actually better trained than most.


----------



## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

just tell the trainer that you want your dog to be completly just a sport dog. there are some awesome SchH, FR, MR, PSA and other protection sport dogs that are monsters on the field but some of the biggest babies off.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> The protection phase is about obedience as well as the bitework. It isn't Personal Protection or attack training. The dog bites a sleeve and is taught to out on command. And most dogs trained in the sport are more reliable on commands (as obedience is critical) than those that are just a pet dog that might bite someone unexpectedly. Of course there are always exceptions.
> So in my opinion if you were sued because your dog bit someone, it wouldn't have much at all to do with being involved in SchH but that the dog has issues, and most clubs don't accept dogs with unsteady temperaments.
> And it could probably be proven in court that just because a dog is SchH trained, it is not a threat to society, but actually better trained than most.


Unfortunately your reasoning and logic doesn't apply in Ontario 
I'm completely of the opinion that a SchH trained dog would be better able to identify a harmless person but if anyone ever caught wind that Jax had any formal protection training, it would be curtains for him.
Google "Dalton McGuinty" and any dog related word you'll see my point... 
I just think tracking and obedience would be a good sport for us because Jax is so eager to learn new things and learns so quickly. I take him to the park to play on the kids juggle gym and he gets so excited to do what I ask him and is so happy when he does good. I feel like I'm depriving him when he's run out of new things to explore.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why are SchH clubs legal in Ontario if the law is so unlogical? 
I would look into SAR or something similar, show MgGuinty the quality of the breed.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I live in Ontario as well and also belong to a Schutzhund club.

Although the laws regarding these "dangerous breeds" is getting silly, there are a few groups lobbying out there for "dangerous owners" instead of the breeds/dogs.

I think a well trained dog, either in OB, Agility, Herding, SchH, etc.. is a well trained dog. Doing bite work has nothing to do with this. Does your dog bite a tug that is being thrown around on the ground? Will they release it with *1* word from you, *1* time when asked? Now, add more drive, add distractions, add lots of people, lots of dogs, lots of noise to that situation, will your dog listen to you now? SchH prepares a dog for instances like this, gives them (and the handler) the training to be confident in those situations and to work under those distractions.

If you don't want to do bite work, then don't but I think maybe you should try another sport? Why not agility? Why not Rally or Obedience? Why would you go to a SchH club and not really believe in the full training? To me personally, it just doesn't makes sense. Why not go to a CKC trainer for these things (OB)?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I suppose it does depend on the club. You'd be a welcome addition down here!! We have too many people that only want to do bitework and don't take an active enough interest in the other 2 phases (particularly tracking). 

Lies is right. I find that valuable club members are usually more important than the actual training/dog. The friendly people who come out, support, help run events, donate items, are there from start to finish and learn, are WAY more valued (even if they have a dog that might not ever get titled due to poor temperament, drive, whatever) than the people who have good dogs and a bad attitude. At least down here.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I don't disagree with any of what anyone here is saying here but imagine a case like this: CTV Edmonton - Family calls for dogs to be banned in city parks after girl is attacked - CTV News and them adding that the dog was "trained to attack"? 
I'd love to do bite work and find it really fascinating, I just wouldn't want to end up in court (or jail) one day because some person completely uneducated on the subject paints me to be a monster that shouldn't be in public. 
If this poor girl is being charged (and in my opinion it's the fault of the kid's parents for not supervising their child) who knows what would happen with a trained dog?
SchH really interests me because it's competitive and other competitors take the sport seriously... You don't just get a little hat and fake diploma at the end... There is a purpose to it with real life applications plus the social aspect of it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

FWIW I was bit in the face by a GSD when I was a toddler and the dog not only had NO bitework training, it had no real training at all. I don't know how it works there, but generally in the US if your dog bit someone like that it would be quarantined or put on house arrest because of rabies, and then during that time there would probably be some sort of hearing to determine whether the dog is "vicious". 

To be honest I think a dog that is really good at SchH and really powerful in bitework is going to bite when threatened for real regardless. That's why those dogs are so good at SchH, that is natural drive and power and aggression, the training is simply control and channeling those drives into more precise behaviors. Otherwise why would we have so many dog bite incidents of dogs that have never seen a SchH field or even any sort of training beyond basics? If you are not comfortable with doing it, you shouldn't feel pressured to do it but honestly some club members may not take too kindly to the misconception that their dog is somehow more of a bite risk and a liability than any other.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax's mom, have you ever been to a SchH club to observe the bitework? It is very structured and not a free for all, the dogs have to be under control, and the training is strict. 
The quote from Lies says it all:


> That's why those dogs are so good at SchH, that is natural drive and power and aggression, the training is *simply control and channeling those drives into more precise behaviors*


We can put up examples all day long of bite incidents, but how many of them were _trained_ in SchH?


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What Jane said is true. If you go and browse the aggression section on this forum, see how many of these dogs were Schutzhund trained - as opposed to nervy, fearful, undersocialized dogs?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think you guys are right, but I think her point is that it would be an additional liability, based on the ignorance of the people making laws/filing lawsuits, where she is at.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

What Jean said. It doesn't sound like the OP has any problems with bitework or shares any of the misconceptions about it, but rather is just aware that the public opinion and legal system in her area does and wants to avoid the potential for increased liability.


----------



## HMV (May 17, 2010)

I suppose the quick answer to the original question is yes you can. You can specialize in tracking. Go for the FH titles.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you guys are right, but I think her point is that it would be an additional liability, based on the ignorance of the people making laws/filing lawsuits, where she is at.


Unfortunately, I often feel that just owning a _German Shepherd dog _seems to pile on the stigma and increase liability.

I think the concerns are fair, but I personally will train and work my dogs as I see fit. Yes, I am more careful with my SchH dog (even though he has the best nerves of all my dogs, is the most social, and actually enjoys interacting with people) because of the possibly stigma attached, but there's things you can do to be careful that don't automatically limit how you can train your own dog.

Is a dog trained in bitework an increased liability? I don't know. I'd be interested to see some court cases with precedent.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I totally understand your predicament. Ignorance of a few is damaging to those are responsible. Such laws are so infuriating. In the grand scheme perhaps your personal liability risk is small and should be weighed against what you need to do for your dog, his potential, his enjoyment and your goals with him. Take the leap to try bitework with a schH Club!!!
Fundamentally Schutzhund without bitework is like fish without water. Yes, there are other SchH titles without bitework (more and more as the sport "softens") that can be pursued, but given limited resources of many SchH clubs other types of dog sport may be just what you and your dog need.

Good luck!


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The limited resources of a schutzhund club are usually the helper. So I guess I find this interesting as she wouldn't be taking up the time of the helper just using the clubs resources as far as tracking and obedience. So is the only purpose of the club to put titles on dogs or are there other purposes. I guess that is up to the club to decide. Having visited clubs in Canada I have always enoyed training with them


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

While the helper is the biggest resource that must be managed properly, there are others. More dogs to track and do obedience means more time taken up, more tracking land (which is often limited) taken up, and more time and energy on the part of the experienced members when it comes to teaching and coaching new members. So there are other things for a club to consider as well. 

Ultimately it comes down not only to the availability of a club's resources, but to what the prospective member brings to the club. There are people who suck up resources and give nothing back and these people are a drain on any club no matter how good they and their dog are or what they accomplish in the sport. And then there are other people who give far more than they take. What they may not have in terms of quality of dog or training, ability to accomplish titles, skills or knowledge to help others they more than make up for in a positive supportive attitude and constantly helping out in whatever capacity they can, even if it's just simple things like setting up blinds, being in a group, firing the gun, setting up the dumbbell rack, laying tracks, serving as spotters, putting on a sleeve to serve as a bite dummy for a dog learning blinds, running toys out to the hanging tree for send outs, bringing snacks for the starving SchH folks.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Just a curious thought here. I've noticed many people with the SchH titles next to their dogs name as well as the GCG title. I've also seen a few with TDI which if I'm not misinformed means they are also therapy dogs? I would think if you also did these things with your dog then if it ever came down to it you could help prove your dog isn't vicious or a trained attack dog. Just a trained dog in general. That he has been tested and is great around people or that he can go into an unknown place like a nursing home and have strange people around him petting him with no issues to help show his softer side and stable well behaved side.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ Good point. I (and I think a few others on here) make a point of doing the CGC, TT, and TDI test with our dogs to show that they are not vicious attack dogs. My Schutzhund dog has the CGC and missed the TT b/c of scheduling conflict. As soon as I can find another TT or TDI test I'll sign us up!

However I know in Canada is the CGN and I'm not sure if they have TDI or TT, but probably have something similar.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sarah'sSita said:


> Fundamentally Schutzhund without bitework is like fish without water. Yes, there are other SchH titles without bitework (more and more as the sport "softens") that can be pursued, but given limited resources of many SchH clubs other types of dog sport may be just what you and your dog need.
> Good luck!


I like the way you have put this! I never say that Keeta has SchH titles - I feel that would be lying, even though they were earned through SchH training and trialed under a SchH judge, because as you say, SchH without bitework is not Schutzhund. But nothing wrong with training with a club and to earn Obedience and Tracking titles. 

My understanding is that stand-alone OB and TR titles where introduced to make it easier for small clubs to meet the four-dog entry minimum to put on a trial, not to water SchH down any further. The SV would not accept those titles alone for breeding purposes anyways.

But for the OP, club culture varies from club to club, some may be very serious and competitive, and will only accept members who have serious competition goals, and dogs with the potential to do very well, and others will take any member or dog, as long as they are a good fit and are serious about dog training. One thing that almost no club wants is someone who ONLY wants to train in bite-work, without bothering with OB or tracking - THAT can be a liability.

So the first step would be to contact clubs in your area and talk to people and see if your goals for Jax would be a good fit, and don't be discouraged if you get turned down by a club, there may be others that would work out okay.

Though not sure how many clubs may be available to you in your area.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> What Jean said. It doesn't sound like the OP has any problems with bitework or shares any of the misconceptions about it, but rather is just aware that the public opinion and legal system in her area does and wants to avoid the potential for increased liability.


Exactly. Well put, thank you 

This thread has given me a pretty good idea of how people would feel about the member that doesn't do bitework... which is fair.

I've been invited by one of the clubs to come take a look to see what they're all about, maybe once I get more input from members around my area, I'd be more comfortable starting with the bitework as well.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

think that sounds like a very good idea, they are there and have the same laws you have they may be able to give you further guidance on it.

I myself have thought about SchH but still have questions so fiured best thing is to go visit a club and see first hand to learn what you can. Different reading articles, pamplets, peoples reviews etc.. as it is to go talk to the people hear their tones see the environment and see the action  Lose nothing but a little bit of time by going and checking it out first hand.


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I understand where you are coming from. We have a new "vicious animal" ordinance in our city. We are concerned about Bison being falsely accused. Moose is has fear aggression and barks like a maniac. Bison gets blamed for it because Moose is so cute.



Holmeshx2 said:


> Just a curious thought here. I've noticed many people with the SchH titles next to their dogs name as well as the GCG title. I've also seen a few with TDI which if I'm not misinformed means they are also therapy dogs? I would think if you also did these things with your dog then if it ever came down to it you could help prove your dog isn't vicious or a trained attack dog. Just a trained dog in general. That he has been tested and is great around people or that he can go into an unknown place like a nursing home and have strange people around him petting him with no issues to help show his softer side and stable well behaved side.


We are pursuing a CGC this year for this reason. Now that Bison is training for SchH (including protection), we will feel more comfortable if he has a CGC also.

Have you considered consulting a lawyer? I believe that some do free phone consultations. Some employers offer lawyer consultations in their benefit packages. It might give you a better idea of the real risks.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Can't offer any advice for nutty Canadian dog laws but since we have PLENTY of them here, I try to stay up to date. This is for you Michigan people, maybe some of you should join up. This kind of thing is becoming a necessity in every state and all people interested in keeping their right to own a dog.... need to get behind these people and help out.


http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201004281310/NEWS01/4280336 


*Michigan dog breeders, kennels form advocacy group*







LANSING - Lt. Gov. John Cherry joined dog owners, breeders and kennel officials today to announce the creation of a statewide advocacy group to promote "pet friendly" public policy in Michigan.
Officials representing the new coalition, Protect MI Dogs, said they will advocate for animal welfare; responsible dog ownership, breeding and training practices; and sound science and choice in veterinary medicine.
Cherry, who has bred and raised Springer Spaniels, was at the Capitol to help announce the formation of the new group.
Officials said the American Kennel Club licensed and sanctioned nearly 550 events in Michigan in 2009. More than 82,000 dogs participated, 65,000 of them from Michigan.
Mark Jaeger, president of Protect MI Dogs, said the group will make sure "policymakers realize that responsible ownership and pet friendly policies can help boost our economy."


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up Anne!

Here is a working link on the subject, but it is vague in what it actually means. Statewide coalition formed to advocate for responsible pet policies in Michigan - Community News


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Well we went to check out the club this morning and I'm really glad we went!
I really enjoyed how the trainers took action the minute we got there. They handled Jax and another dog that belonged to another noob and started working with them immediately. They said Jax had a good temperament and drive and we should start with tracking next week. So proud of my little man  He showed no fear or aggression (as if he could be aggressive at this age) but stood his ground when the big dogs were in his face, and explored like he owned the place. 
There was a gentleman rolleyes there that was clearly raising a viscous out of control beast so I've reserved myself to the fact that if anyone was going to be made an example of with our new dangerous dog breed laws, it would be him and not me. If people like that are allowed to own dogs and go out in public with them, I should be fine with my guy. Not even sure if that person was part of the club, he just kept interrupting with his unfortunate dog but no one really engaged him.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Glad to hear it went well. Little Jax is at the perfect age to start tracking. He'll love it. Picking goodies off the ground and eating it ... what's not to like!?


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Why are SchH clubs legal in Ontario if the law is so unlogical?
> I would look into SAR or something similar, show MgGuinty the quality of the breed.


I can't emphasize it often enough, but SAR is far from something to do to keep the dog busy.


----------



## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Catu said:


> I can't emphasize it often enough, but SAR is far from something to do to keep the dog busy.


If Jax had to find the same thing more than three times, he'd look at me and say "If I keep finding this for you, you'll never learn to take better care of your things, I'm going home." LOL


----------

