# Are traditional color patterns not common in working lines?



## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Ive been browsing online at working line breeders and I haven't seen any breeding dogs with the traditional black saddle and tan color pattern. Is this the way it generally is? Thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

black saddle and tan are not traditional.
popular , yes. 

first dogs actually were sables and black.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

carmspack said:


> black saddle and tan are not traditional.
> popular , yes.
> 
> first dogs actually were sables and black.


Thats right, I've seen pictures in books I've read. So is that color pattern not common in working lines?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No - the main focus in working lines is working ability - that may show up in many different coat patterns. 

The black and tan with saddle was specifially selected for in show-line breedings. There was a very influential conformation judge at one time who prefered the Black and Tans with saddles, and set them up to win above other colors and patterns in shows. 

Since placing well in conformation shows was very important for many breeders, they started breeding for that color pattern, and thus we have it today, and the start of the split between show lines and working lines.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You can get Black and Tan working lines it is usually a blanket black pattern or bicolor.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Castlemaid said:


> No - the main focus in working lines is working ability - that may show up in many different coat patterns.
> 
> The black and tan with saddle was specifially selected for in show-line breedings. There was a very influential conformation judge at one time who prefered the Black and Tans with saddles, and set them up to win above other colors and patterns in shows.
> 
> Since placing well in conformation shows was very important for many breeders, they started breeding for that color pattern, and thus we have it today, and the start of the split between show lines and working lines.


Very informative! Thank you.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

Sudenblick in tx has several working line black and tans in their breeding line. Go to her web page.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Not common but not impossible to find


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I thought many of the west german wl are black and tan?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel said:


> I thought many of the west german wl are black and tan?


working lines are predominantly sable, bi, black.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> working lines are predominantly sable, bi, black.


Thanks, I thought that was the case for ddr and Czech dogs, but somewhere along the way I misled myself into thinking many of the wg wl were blk/tan, lol!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If you are looking for a Black and Tan working line which are not that common here mostly blanket black or bicolor if found. this is a more recent post. 
Share Post
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7764202


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Nigel, I have always been under the same impression as you, that WEST german working lines are Black and Tan. the several that I've known were as well. 1 saddle back, 2 blanket backs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

West German Working Line

Seger vom Sitz von der Hose

Sire - all WG
Mother is WG on top, Czech on bottom.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WGlines -You will find Black and Tan they are not all black/tan.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks guys! I have a bi colored pup now and won't be getting another one for at least a year. I didn't do enough research when we got our first pup but and not doing that again. Color isn't really the priority but it would be nice to find the pattern we wanted, when the time comes.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks for that link Jenny720!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sure I hope you find what you are looking for!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In Sweden and Holland( especially KNPV lines) you will find many Black and Tan dogs of the very highest working order.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*are _predominantly_ (mostly, majority, more commonly found, etc). any color can show up in any line. but if I'm wrong about WGWL then I'm wrong and that's fine.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fodder said:


> *are predominantly (mostly, majority, etc). any color can show up in any line. but if I'm wrong about WGWL then I'm wrong and that's fine.



In working line, you'll see any pattern and color but predominantly sables, blacks, bi-colors. But not any color can show up in any line. Take WGSL for example. You'll never see a sable or a black or a bi in those lines because they've been red/black generation after generation. Same with ASL. I've seen some blacks and sables in a breeder in NH but never seen a bi-color. The sables seem to all be patterned sables. And mostly what I've seen are black/tan saddle backs and some blanket backs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I've never inspected pedigrees, but the conversation has come up before and photos were produced of sable & bi color ASL, as well as a sable WGSL.... I don't recall patterning but likely...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, there have been some sable WGSL's. 4X VA Timo vom Berrekasten SchH3 IPO3 FH2 for example. 

Timo vom Berrekasten ? working-dog


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Lisa! Are they very common currently? Typically patterned? That is a nice looking dog. I see he was born 20 years ago.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> You'll never see a sable or a black or a bi in those lines because they've been red/black generation after generation. .




picture sharing


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes. Addressed above by Lisa 10 minutes ago. Thanks again.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The asl's are bicolor and there are sables. It is true many of sables that are seen are patterned sables but there are quite a few dark sables out there and max is one.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Yes, there have been some sable WGSL's. 4X VA Timo vom Berrekasten SchH3 IPO3 FH2 for example.
> 
> Timo vom Berrekasten ? working-dog


Wow beautiful dog I never knew this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny720 said:


> The asl's are bicolor and there are sables. It is true many of sables that are seen are patterned sables but there are quite a few dark sables out there and max is one.


Would you say that black/tan saddles are predominant? Is it an even mix of colors?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ not an even mix, predominantly b&t

I've always gone off of this:

ASL - black and tan
WGSL - black and red
WL (east) - sable (w/ a good amount of solid black and bicolors)
WL (west) - black and tan *which apparently is up for debate 

again, speaking for the majority


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fodder - I would say your WL east/west are backwards. It seems a lot of the DDR (east) dogs are black/tan. West is a mix of sable, black, bi. Czech seems to be mostly sables. 

Now the lines are being interbred so the colors are evening out based on the breedings.

But I've been wrong on everything else in this thread so might be on this too! lol


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > The asl's are bicolor and there are sables. It is true many of sables that are seen are patterned sables but there are quite a few dark sables out there and max is one.
> ...


I would say there are Black and Tans saddles are predominant but there are many blanket blacks and bicolors out there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've seen a lot of blanket backs but never a bi-color. Or not one that I've noticed!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I also believed west German lines are Black and Tan but they are mixing lines so Black and Tan are a hard find here. It is easier to find a Black and Tan working line in Europe then here.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Yes. Addressed above by Lisa 10 minutes ago. Thanks again.


:thumbup: 

Going to reiterate  you're welcome!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lisa - 

Doesn't the black/tan and reverse mask in East German WL come down thru Lord?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny

Here are the competitors from the 2015 Nationals. 
2015uscanationals


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

from google...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I've seen a lot of blanket backs but never a bi-color. Or not one that I've noticed!


You will most commonly see Black and Tan there will be a bicolor as well as blk or pattern sable more of a rarity is a dark sable in the crowd but is not as common. Xeph- posted a few of bicolor gsd in the "straight back gsd post" Max's mom is a bicolor so I do notice them right away even though not as common as a blk/tan.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmm...I thought Jackie's dogs were melanistic black/tan. Not bi.

ETA: Found them! I never noticed the tarheel before!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> hmmm...I thought Jackie's dogs were melanistic black/tan. Not bi.
> 
> ETA: Found them! I never noticed the tarheel before!


I believe xeph's dog going to the Nationals is a melanistic Black and Tan if my memory serves right was looking for post.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Jenny
> 
> Here are the competitors from the 2015 Nationals.
> 2015uscanationals


Ah- thanks for site.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Fodder said:


> ^ not an even mix, predominantly b&t
> 
> I've always gone off of this:
> 
> ...


This is what I had thought as well ^^ I like this thread, it has turned out to be very informative. 

With a pattered sable male and a blk and tan female could the pups turn out either way? I thought they could, but maybe not??


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Agreed! This thread is great. I can't wait to get our next pup!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Color Coat Chart
Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements

It's pretty straight forward for a dog like mine with sables and blacks. His dam's sire is black, dam's dam is black. She's sable so has to be a/aw. Bred to a black so my dog is a/aw. a from the black sire who has to be a/a. And the aw from the dam for the sable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And an old thread

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/85882-gsd-color-coat-chart.html


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Fodder said:
> 
> 
> > ^ not an even mix, predominantly b&t
> ...


http://www.ehretgsd.com/genetics.htm

Took this off the forum awhile back
Max's dam was bicolor and his sire a pattern sable who look like a Black and Tan. Maxs grandfather on his Sires side -was a Black and Tan and Max's grandma a pattern sable. Maxs Dams side -maxs grandma was long coat Black and Tan and maxs grandpa Black and Tan . were 8 pups in the litter two were dark sable (one was max) and 1 was pattern sable. The rest Black and Tan.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> Thanks Lisa! Are they very common currently? Typically patterned? That is a nice looking dog. I see he was born 20 years ago.


You are making me feel old. LOL I remember when he was showing. I didn't realize it was so long ago. Friend titled a son who was a nice dog and a super tracking dog (so I think Timo's FH2 was legitimate). 

At that time, the president of the SV, Peter Meßler, was trying to promote the sable/gray color in the show line dogs. It didn't go anywhere after that, so, no, probably not too many anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> You are making me feel old. LOL I remember when he was showing. I didn't realize it was so long ago. Friend titled a son who was a nice dog and a super tracking dog (so I think Timo's FH2 was legitimate).
> 
> At that time, the president of the SV, Peter Meßler, was trying to promote the sable/gray color in the show line dogs. It didn't go anywhere after that, so, no, probably not too many anymore.


LOL Not old! Just in the sport longer!

That is a really handsome dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Looking back to the origins of the breed - many herding dogs were used - Carmen can really - and has - posted about these lines.....common colors were sable, pure black, pure white and black and tan. The white - common in modern TENDING breeds like Kuvasz, 
Great Prys and Mammarmas (sp?) - color was not wanted in the breed, and disqualified...culled when it appeared back then....

The SV lumps all black and xxxx dogs together as "Schwartz - Braun" - black and red - tan - cream - they are all the same genetic COLOR....Pigment is a separate gene and thus you get descriptions like tan or red. Much like chestnut horses - liver, red, sorrel - same color - different depth of pigment and descriptive name.

So up to the late 60s - all colors were shown and worked.....then came the Martin brothers - Wienerau and Arminius kennels.....between them, they held the presidency of the SV for 25?30? years? They had a vision of what THEY thought was ideal, and they guided the breed as judges at the National championships (the Sieger show) to become their vision - the black and red saddle patterned dog so many think is "traditional".....

The VA dogs like the blanket backed Bodo and Bernd Lierburg and Marko Cellerland as well as the pure black Frei Gugge from the 60s were bred out of the show lines but all are found in the working lines today.

There have been sable WGSL dogs - Timo, as Lisa pointed out above, and Champ Dakota were well known in the early 2000s.....I actually saw progeny of both. A few US breeders, Chris Stumpf of VA being one I know personally, bred many sable showline dogs.... she is not into dogs now, having horses, chickens and a nice acreage in VA.

As far as ASLs - I attended an AKC show last weekend (where Xeph won BOB) as my Vislza breeder friend was showing - I saw sables in the ring, and blankets too....I know of several solid black ASLs - the AKC show people have never gone the color route like the SV people - 

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nigel said:


> This is what I had thought as well ^^ I like this thread, it has turned out to be very informative.
> 
> With a pattered sable male and a blk and tan female could the pups turn out either way? I thought they could, but maybe not??


So a sable male with a saddle pattern - assuming one of his parents IS black and tan....and a black and tan female....

Color of pups would depend on the recessive genes both are carrying.

For example - I had a sable female whose sire was black - thus she carried black.

I bred to a black and tan male who had a black recessive- Zender Lusandai - got all three colors....the sables carried ??? recessive...the black and tans would carry black, and the blacks only had black. Same female to a sable - Gingo Mohnwiese - sables and 1 black....so ****** carried black. Same female to Enno Fuchsstein, a sable - sables and a black and tan - so Enno had a black and tan recessive and that pup would have a black recessive.

It is important to know the recessives to predict color.


Lee


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> So a sable male with a saddle pattern - assuming one of his parents IS black and tan....and a black and tan female....
> 
> Color of pups would depend on the recessive genes both are carrying.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lee, I had to read that a couple times, but I got it, lol


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## Ripple (Mar 25, 2016)

There are a lot of incorrect generalizations in this thread. Just because most WGSL are black/red does not mean you will never see a sable. I have seen sable WGSL dogs. They are beautiful.

There are also many bi colors, sables and black dogs showing from American Show Lines. You see a lot of sables, bi colors and blankets at all breed shows, and you'll see more blacks at specialties vs. all breeds. Some all breed judges can't "see" a black dog.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I consider my darker dogs to be bicolor, although quite frankly, I think it's a stupid designation. Genetically it's just black and tan with a pattern modifier. It's not special enough to deserve its own designation, IMO...especially when sables can be marked like bis (tarheels and pencil marks)


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