# Friend's dog died today. Switching to prong collar



## Kaz

Mika was on a harness, my friend took him for a walk in downtown Manhattan. Mika lunged and then stepped behind my friend, thus when my friend tried to pull him in, the harness slipped off Mika.

Mika ran in to a SUV. Skull crushed. Dead on impact.

I have trained Manfred on a harness, but I am switching to prong collars as of today.

My fist response : to purchase the Petco training prong collar with quick release XL 22 in. 

petco.com - Petco Training Chain Prong Collar with Quick Release for Dogs customer reviews - product reviews - read top consumer ratings

I paid $44 (with tax) for the XL.

My observations :

1) The prongs and collar is well made. Very high quality steel. Solid welding. 

2) The prongs are made of hard steel, very difficult to bend. Consequently it took considerable effort to remove the links and put the collar back together during the fitting process.

3) I am not happy with the fitting process, we made it 2 inches greater than Manfred's neck diameter (as the instructions suggested) and while working with the Petco asst Store manager, who claimed to know something about training dogs. I dont believe any Petco employee knows much, given their own people contradict each other during different visits. and she actually recommended the step in harness and a method of keeping the leash super tight to teach the dog how to walk. Some thing I KNOW is wrong.

We have the collar fitted below the ears, and as the Petco girl suggested away from the adam's apple. But somehow it always slips down to the adam's apple.

4) What I do like : the quick release snap has an angled mouth, which means the chain link is not directly on the mouth. 
(See figure).

So even if the dog tugs at the chain or paws it, since the chain links are away from the clasp mouth, it wont come off easy.

5) The ends of the prongs are not rounded.


Lastly, this collar has horrible ratings. I am not sure why. I honestly dont see it possible to easily bend the prongs to get the collar off. 

Other collars I am considering:






Please note: 3 reviews list that the quick release comes off pretty easy.







Please note : it is a new design and more than triple the cost of conventional prong collars.



so question 1: Which do you recommend?

I have seen videos by leerburg which decry quick release prong collars because the clasp gets undone pretty easily.

I am leaning towards quick release collars as of now.




Part 2: experience walking with Prong collar.

1) Background : 

Harness: Manfred walks very well on a harness. Very well. But if he wants to sniff at some thing particularly attractive, he will go to it and pull or if there is a major distraction then he will lunge.

Conventional neck collar: when leash is on the collar, then its like power steering, Manfred will barely pull. But he has on very rare occasions, lunged even with a neck collar based leash.

Greatest concern with the collar : on several occasions, when Manfred is behind the person holding the leash, he will lower his head at the time the person is pulling on the leash to bring him closer and the leash slips off.

We dont trust the collar leash for walking in high traffic areas.

Prong collar today:

1) He did not pull or lunge once because of distractions. 

2) He did try the "stay back and lower head" maneuver to slip out of the prong collar, but ended up yelping in pain.

3) Manfred yelped in pain 3 times today while wearing the prong collar. Twice because of the "stay back and lowered head" maneuver, and once when he lunged to avoid the sprinklers on the grass on the side of the sidewalk.

4) Manfred stopped and scratched at his neck with his hind legs twice during a one mile walk, some thing he has never done before.

5) Manfred is very quite and subdued with the prong collar. Its like he has given up his high spirits. 

6) Renata refused to walk Manfred, because he was on the prong collar. She hates it. When I forced her to try, she was literally running behind Manfred to avoid the leash from getting tight, a completely counter productive maneuver given the true purpose.

7) I tried the prong collar on my neck, kept it tight and pulled hard, it did pinch the skin hard at times, and it choked me.

8) I am concerned about the prong collar gashing and creating lacerations on Manfred.

9) Manfred is just 5 months old, is this too early to go to the prong collar, the last extreme step? Especially after we invested so heavily on walking well on the step in harness?

10) Will the prong collar have any adverse effects as restrict growth of his neck region or any other long term ill effects?

I am switching or considering switching because of what happened to Mika. I have had the step in harness come off at least once or twice when loosely fitted. 

The AKC Nylon Mesh Adjustable Dog Harness in Hunter Green at PETCO is a piece of garbage. 


The biggest problem is: the length adjustment keeps changing by itself, thus making the harness loose when you dont expect it.


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## Mary&Stella

Hi Kaz

We went with the prong on Stella a few months ago, when she was 1 year, we did this because of her lunging at cars and being not bad on her walks but we wanted better. Our observations now are, still tries to take on a var but not with as much gusto! Still loves walkies actuallz goes to the drawer that has the collar in it and sits and waits. So I do not hink there is anz pain just the surprise at a correction, we are verz happy with the result as control over a dog especially around traffic is paramount.
As for not wanting to walk a dog because he is on the collar have Renata walk him around the house and get used to it, these puppies lern really quick not to pull or misbehave. I am sorry about your friends dog, these guys do have some power and the need to be able to control in a bad situation is paramount, I think a prong in some cases is the best tool.


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## NancyJ

Herm Springer standard collar. The construction makes hooking the links easier.

In one of the threads I made a safety for my old HS Quick release that is working very well and allows me to slip it on over his head then cinch it down.

Photo in other thread.

Loose prong collars more likely to cause damage. I have never had mine exactly right below the jaw and stay without a little sliding down but it is still snug. Some of the options like the fabric covered with the sliding nylon adjustment may be better for that but people have been using standard prong collars for YEARS.

I have never had a prong cause damage . You can use it on the dead ring for pulling. Live ring for corrections. The dog should learn to walk with a loose lead - pulling into the prong is not how they work. Back to puppy 101. Making quick turns if the dog forges ahead, not moving if dog pulls etc.

I have not used the prong on all my dogs but have on 4 of them. Beau at 6.5 months was way pulling too hard when distracted even though we were loose leash walking when younger. In one day with it he is loose leash walking again. Long term effects? You only leave the prong on while it is in use. You never leave a dog unattended with a prong. It should not be shutting down and subduing your dog unless he is very soft. it is a heck of a lot better than pulling into a flat collar or chain collar and putting continued pressure on the windpipe.

----

Yes, I have had the quick release come undone and not under particularly stressful situations-no way I would use QR without safety.


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## Kaz

Thank you.

This is a hard decision for me, because I have advocated harnesses. 

I just hate the prongs....

Manfred showed 5 signs of pain in a one mile walk with this prong collar. 

I am heavily inclined towards the







Amazon.com: Herm Sprenger Original NEW Pinch Collar!!! - "Neck Tech" - Stainless Steel - Includes Stainless Steel Snap Hook - This Collar Is 24" - Includes 10 Links - Adjustable - Will Never Rust!!! This Product Has a Life Time Warranty!!!: Pet Suppl.

It seems a little more humane, and better made.


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## Mary&Stella

I dont think they are painful, I think the puppies are complaining making noise and we think that a yelp is pain it could be just surprise, a reaction that makes them give a noise like they are in pain. Like I said Stella loves her walks, goes for the collar sits (kinda) while its being put on and then away we go !!!


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## NancyJ

There are threads on the neck tech - I think it is a sales job for someone who does not like the "look" of a standard collar - prongs are nothing new and not inhumane at all. The bigger the links the harder to get an adjustment. You can add links to a smaller collar quite well. I used a small on Cyra when she was a puppy and just bought extra links. You can fit better that way too. Actually gives a stronger correction though.

You might want a video clip of you using the collar with your dog. That does not sound right. And I agree, quick yelps the dog is learning.


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## doggiedad

teach your dog not to lunge. teach your dog
to heel on or off leash. teach your dog "stop",
"wait", "no", "come" or some command to stop
him if he tries to lunge or run away. once he
knows these things i think any collar or harness
will work. you always read where people are going
to try this kind of collar, this kind of harness, etc.
rarely do you read where people are saying i'm
going to train my dog to heel, i'm going to train my 
dog not to lunge or dash off, i'm going to train my dog
to stop and come on command.


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## NancyJ

I do think the prong buys your rotator cuffs a little less stress WHILE you are teaching those things. I have never had to use one long term on a dog but, to me, it is nice when they go into the teenage pushy years and seem to unlearn much you have taught them. My husband HATES to go on walks with me and Beau - stop/sit - say. stop/down stay figure 8s, quick turns. stairs.

I am not doing a motivational heel yet and a heel is a but much for long daily walks.......dog just needs to keep relative position....you know I don't walk with a long line though or get ahead or lag and let him sniff and pee everywhere...only that for places I designate.

Stairs are great for wait where the dog wants to forge ahead - they are also a place where you are likely to have a pulling dog throw you off balance.


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## JakodaCD OA

I use this collar ALOT
The Ultimate Leash: About Us


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Very scary and very sad. 



> *Martingale *collars are also known as Greyhound Collars or Humane Choke Collars. The Martingale Dog Collar was designed for Sighthounds (ie, Greyhounds, Whippets, Italian Greyhounds, Borzoi, Saluki, etc) because their necks are larger than their head and they can slip out of traditional side release dog collars (more at the link)
> 
> Martingale Collars have 2 loops. The smaller of the loops is called the "Control Loop". This is the portion of the collar that is attached to the leash and tightens when it is pulled. The second loop is the adjustment loop. This is the part of the dog collar that you adjust to the right size to fit your dog.
> Martingale Collars - 2 Hounds Design


We use these no slip collars (martingales in general, not this brand) for every dog in the rescue. 

If I have a puppy foster or a dog that I am working with on the Easy Walk Harness, I will use a coupler so that they are connected to the harness and a collar if they do slip the harness.

Doggiedad has the right idea, but until you get to that point, those are some ideas for safety.


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## Liesje

Prongs can snap open too, especially if the dog is rearing backwards. They only stick together well if fitted tightly and the dog is pulling forward. I've had two different Herm Sprenger name brand prongs come open.

If the dog getting away was my worry, I'd use whatever harness or collar I wanted and then add a slip collar and clip the leash to both or attach with a coupler. This is what I used to do with my dog that wore an Easy Walk but was prone to escaping. If he backed out of the harness, I still had him by the slip collar. You could do the same with a martingale.


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## abakerrr

I think prong collars are a great training tool but just like anything else, they can be abused. If you use it the way it was designed to be used, it's not cruel or torturous for the dog. Plus, I would rather see a dog walk appropriately on a prong than strangle/ choke themselves out on a flat nylon ANY day. I used to use a petsmart brand prong on my older shepherd but got a herm sprenger for my young pup and won't ever go back. The quality is not matched by any petstore brands. I would recommend that brand, traditional design/links (no quick release) and a smaller size than the XL. I think my gsds are on medium links. If you fit it appropriately, the links won't come apart and you'll see much better results when training. If your worried about it slipping off, I use a small nylon slip collar (i think I got mine from leerburg) that I clip into the leash with the live ring in the event my prong snaps off (not that it ever has) so I have a back up.

If your dog isn't a puller and doesn't need a prong, martingales are a nice alternative.


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## gagsd

Given the OPs situation and concerns, I would also recommend a martingale collar.
And of course prongs collars "hurt." that is why they work


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## onyx'girl

I use martingales for every foster/or transport. Dogs try to back out of collars often if they don't know you. 
Always good to have a back up collar on a prong. Or run a tab on the prong and then a regular flat or martingale on the regular leash. Then you are only 'using' the prong when needed. 
I have a sensations harness and the clip is so small/chincy that I didn't trust it for 90# Onyx. I never relied on that and always had another collar on her when using it.


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## kiya

Sorry to hear about your friends dog that so horrible. 
I just switched my 2 yr old to a harness a few weeks ago. My dogs walk nicely on loose leads, but I need to have 100% control in any situation that could come up and after my little incident today being chased by loose dogs thank God she wasn't able to slip out of her harness. I have always used a prong on my dogs, I use a nylon slip collar as a safty. When she was a pup she used to do a wigglely act so even if I just had a flat collar on her I would but the slip collar on too. None of my dogs ever showed signs of pain from a prong. Lakota is a very prissy delicate type dog even when she would lunge at deer with a prong on I never saw her flinch from pain. Since she is good I just wanted to try a harness. Now I really have my doubts about it.


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## Syaoransbear

Out of those choices I would choose the second option which is the regular herm sprenger. The herm sprenger prongs are a little easier to open and close than on the cheaper pet store ones.

Adjusting the neck tech really, really sucks, but I like what they use for the quick release. It's very secure since it's the same hardware they use for leashes.

That still doesn't make up for how difficult it is to get a proper fit. Especially with a puppy, you are going to be adjusting that thing like crazy. I needed pliers to adjust mine, it was not fun. And the prettiness of the neck tech gets buried in neck skin and fur since the collar is not very thick. Also, the quick release is not really easier to use because you have to loop the chain through the collar every time. Getting a little chain through a little hole with an excited dog is about as difficult as connecting regular prongs.

I got some of these recently and I really really like them: Secret Power

You seem to be looking for something that's easier to put on, and this is definitely easy to put on and you can get a really accurate fit. You also don't have to worry about prongs coming undone. Plus they are pretty, lol.


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## BowWowMeow

I am very sorry about your friend's dog. That is a tragic accident. 

I would not choose a prong collar just because you think it's safer. Prong collars can also come open. Chama had several different, good quality, prongs and they broke open, especially when she would pull backwards. 

In situations where I was worried about Basu slipping his collar I had the Sense-ation harness and I also clipped the leash to his regular flat collar. 

Ultimately though, training is the only way you can be sure your dog will not slip out of a collar.


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## selzer

I had Babs slip a flat collar when she was a puppy in a busy PetsMart parking lot. Since then I have used martingales with my girls for safety. 

A prong collar is a training collar. Prongs can come apart, I do not know how often that happens to people, but it is not unheard of. 

Head collars (halti, Gentle Leader) can be twisted out of, I would not go with a head collar.

I think choke chains and fabric chokes are not very likely to slip, but they can actually cause damage. I prefer the martingale because it won't actually choke the dog or cause any damage, as the collar can only tighten so far. It uses the same chain mechanism as the prong, (some are fabric rather than chain) but it has no actual prongs. I think that it is the safest collar for puppies and for most dogs.


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## Lucy Dog

How old in Manfred now? I'd wait to at least 6 months before even thinking about a prong collar.


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## martemchik

I think you need to go to a training class where they use prong collars so you can be taught to use one. Your dog is too young for one, I'm pretty sure most people will agree 6 months is the youngest a dog should be before getting one. It will slide down to their neck and you just have to keep putting it behind their ears, but I don't know how you are using an XL collar on a 5 month old. I think I have the medium one for my 18 month old which went on at 8 months and we have stopped using it since we started shows.

No collar will restrict any growth, and unless you're using it wrong it should never draw blood. You really need someone to teach you the proper way to correct with the collar and you need to get over your dislike of using it. It is a tool, a very useful tool when a dog is driven. Trust me, we tried many collars before a trainer came up to us and said we needed a prong, my dog just didn't react to my corrections at all.

My suggestion is still to get into a class, and also to get a smaller one. No GSD needs an XL one.


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## fast93

doggiedad said:


> teach your dog not to lunge. teach your dog
> to heel on or off leash. teach your dog "stop",
> "wait", "no", "come" or some command to stop
> him if he tries to lunge or run away. once he
> knows these things i think any collar or harness
> will work. you always read where people are going
> to try this kind of collar, this kind of harness, etc.
> rarely do you read where people are saying i'm
> going to train my dog to heel, i'm going to train my
> dog not to lunge or dash off, i'm going to train my dog
> to stop and come on command.



Great post! Unfortunately, there are no quick fixes.....it takes time to train.


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## martemchik

fast93 said:


> Great post!


His dog is 5 months old, I know many of you have had 4 month old pups that heeled and recalled at 100% but some people don't have the luxury. Until he can train him, this might be his only option.


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## BlackPuppy

That's so sad about your friends dog. 

I also like to use martingales on my lesser-trained dogs. And you will need to train the dog eventually, might as well be sooner, than later.


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## jprice103

I just started using the Easy Walker harness. It helps with pulling, unlike regular harness which actually encourage pulling, and I don't think they can pull out of them like a regular harness. I have one foster who gets VERY worked up when encountering dogs on walks. The one time I had to use a regular harness...he was able to slip right out of it...but he NEVER has on the Easy Walker. Just another alternative since he is so young!


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## Lucy Dog

martemchik said:


> His dog is 5 months old, I know many of you have had 4 month old pups that heeled and recalled at 100% but some people don't have the luxury. Until he can train him, this might be his only option.


I don't think anyones dog is 100% fully trained by 4 months. That doesn't mean you need to put a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy. There are other options out there. Training classes, harnesses, gentle leader, martingale, etc.

Again, 6 months old is the absolute youngest before even thinking about a prong. And this is coming from someone who is a big advocate of prong collars that are used correctly.


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## martemchik

Lucy Dog said:


> I don't think anyones dog is 100% fully trained by 4 months. That doesn't mean you need to put a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy. There are other options out there. Training classes, harnesses, gentle leader, martingale, etc.
> 
> Again, 6 months old is the absolute youngest before even thinking about a prong. And this is coming from someone who is a big advocate of prong collars that are used correctly.


I know, I was rebutting the statement about training the dog to wait/sit and all those other commands. People sometimes forget that sometimes its puppies that are being discussed and not dogs. Prongs are a tool that help you train dogs, and I have no issue with them. I think for now a martingale should be used but then get into classes and see if you need a prong. Sometimes there just isn't a way around it.


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## VegasResident

Something I was told once. A prong is for training and training only. It is to work with lunging behavior.

While you described such behavior you seem more concerned with your dog slipping out of a harness, etc.

The intention of a prong is really not for the backward slip and run dog and I used to have one of those type of pups with my last german shepherd.

Personally with a 20 week pup and your biggest concern is slipping out, I would find something else, like maybe Ruffwear Web Master? Harness Five Point Adjustable Dog Harness

or stick him in one of these and good luck on him getting out! LOL Siberian Husky vest harness -Nylon Dog Harness with handle [vest nylon dog harness-H13] : Siberian Husky harness,Siberian Husky muzzle,Siberian Husky collar,dog leash,leads,tracking dog harnesses, Slip collars,fur saver collars,leather collars,dog mu

Because

1. You are looking for something aimed to slipping out as oyur major concern based on your title and first paragraph
2. Your pup is young. Prongs are really in my opinion for older GSDs
3. Prongs come apart, alot. In fact oyu are always recommended to have the dog in a backup collar due to the links coming apart


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## Freestep

Kaz said:


> 8) I am concerned about the prong collar gashing and creating lacerations on Manfred.
> 
> 9) Manfred is just 5 months old, is this too early to go to the prong collar, the last extreme step? Especially after we invested so heavily on walking well on the step in harness?


No, the collar will not "gash" or create "lacerations" on your dog. If prong collars did that, there would not be much of a market for them as hardly anyone would use it.

Having said that, 5 months is a little young for a prong unless your dog is a major puller. I like Martingale collars for younger pups; they can't back out of them, so they are much safer than flat collars or harnesses.


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## BlackthornGSD

Freestep said:


> No, the collar will not "gash" or create "lacerations" on your dog. If prong collars did that, there would not be much of a market for them as hardly anyone would use it.
> 
> Having said that, 5 months is a little young for a prong unless your dog is a major puller. I like Martingale collars for younger pups; they can't back out of them, so they are much safer than flat collars or harnesses.


Agreed! 
I really like martingales or limited slip collars for dogs who are going to be out in public (where there are roads and cars and other dangerous things). 

If I was worried about my dog getting loose while on lead, I would *always* have my leash hooked to a back up collar if I was using a prong collar. You can use a standard nylon or chain choke collar as a back up--this collar should never tighten unless the prong collar comes undone--and I've had it happen more than a few times.

Although I have several prong collars (my preference is for the Herm Sprenger curogan, in medium), I haven't actually used one in 6 months, and I've not used one just for walking a dog in years. I'd really prefer not to use a prong collar on a puppy at all--maybe once he/she gets around 10 months if they are particularly boisterous.


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## GregK

jocoyn said:


> I do think the prong buys your rotator cuffs a little less stress WHILE you are teaching those things.


Yep!! 

Less stress on the elbow and wrist with chronic tendonitis too! 
　
The only time I’m putting any kind of harness on my dog is if I want him to pull a sled or cart.


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## Chicagocanine

Prong collars can come off too (break apart). I had this happen to my dog in a crowded parking lot once on the way to training class.
Personally I would also not recommend a prong with a young puppy...

Also a well-fitted harness should not be that easy to slip out of. Additionally there are harnesses made so that a dog can NOT slip out of them, for "houdini" dogs.
Another option is a martingale collar, or if you want to use a training device of some sort you can attach it so that the leash is connected to the martingale AND the training collar or harness, as a backup.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

This thread has been helpful. I'd never heard of the Martingale collar before but I'd like to get one for active Rey. My trainer uses a prong during sessions, though light touch with Rey. He told me to take it on and off her in intervals when she's laying around my office with me and such, not just in training, because he's found dogs can sometimes start associating that they only have to behave when the prong collar is on (if that's the only time you put it on them). Makes sense to me. For leisure walks in between, the Martingale sounds perfect and I can couple it with the prong during training and the intermittent times she wears it.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

VegasResident said:


> or stick him in one of these and good luck on him getting out! LOL Siberian Husky vest harness -Nylon Dog Harness with handle [vest nylon dog harness-H13] : Siberian Husky harness,Siberian Husky muzzle,Siberian Husky collar,dog leash,leads,tracking dog harnesses, Slip collars,fur saver collars,leather collars,dog mu


I think something like that would be good for a younger pup!


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## msvette2u

I believe 5mos. is much too young for a prong.
Get a MARTINGALE/Greyhound collar.


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## Anthony8858

My wife had a similar incident, with a different result. Kira's prong collar was not properly secured, and my wife was trotting her along the blvd. The collar fell off, and Kira took off towards and intersection. 

Since I've stressed from day one, the importance of being able to "stop and drop", my wife did just that, and Kira stopped on a dime.

I would recommend you not only make sure your dog is secure, regardless of the type of collar, but you also IMMEDIATELY start working on a stop and drop command. Start with baby steps at very short distances, and keep putting space between you.

IMO, it's one of the most important training exercises you could learn.


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## NancyJ

Anthony8858 said:


> IMO, it's one of the most important training exercises you could learn.


100% agree.


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## Shaina

I agree as well. My lab won't return on a recall to save his life, but he hears me scream "DOWN!!!!!" and he hits the floor like nobody's business. It's saved our butts a few times.


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## Ucdcrush

With any collar that might come apart or the dog might slip out of, please use some kind of tether between that collar and the dog's regular neck collar.

A short piece of nylon leash material with a clip on each end works great. At the 99 cent store, I bought 2 cheap leashes. I cut the clip off one, cut the leash on the other one a few inches long, then tied the clip to the leash+existing clip. It's about 4" long and works fine as a backup.

Or to be extra safe, get some solid brass clips at Lowes, or use chain link quick clips. I have had one of those chrome metal ones come apart (yes, with some force), luckily not while walking a dog.


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## Chicagocanine

Here is a no-pull harness made for dogs who escape from harnesses:
Freedom Harness, No Pull Dog Harness: Multi-Use, Velvet Lining!


If you just use a regular harness and not a no-pull one, the Ruffwear Web Master harness is one option, it's said to be good for dogs who tend to escape harnesses.


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## NancyJ

I use a safety too, even put a safety on the clip for the old quick release prong but yes you need the safety to another collar and a short tab to a martingale works well. I like the chain/nylon one because it can ride low on the neck and not get in the way of the prong collar but will cinch up if you need it.

I don't know. I am using a prong on Beau right now - he got big and strong and pushy real fast (about 7 months) and I don't expect this to be a long term arrangement with him ... he was doing fine with loose leash walking earlier....it buys me some time to get through this phase. .. I honestly think it depends on the dog. Grim NEVER had a prong.

I can honestly say though the ONLY prong failure I have ever had was the french snap (which my safety on the prong will take care of).......but better safe than sorry with a backup.


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## Kaz

I am just confused right now, the prong has Manfred walking very well. He has tried the old trick "step behind the handler and lower head" so that the collar - leash slips off his neck at a pull, but then he has yelped in pain since the prongs do their job. So the collar wont come off that way. 

I dont know about the prongs coming apart on their own, maybe its possible, but honestly, the ones I have, have incredible tensile strength.

And to clarify another point: Manfred had been very well trained to walk well on the leash on harness or collar. That is not the issue.

The issue is we are spooked by Mika's death.
We just dont want to take the slightest chance. 

Renata, my fiancee, who strongly protested against the prong collar now actually prefers it while going for walks with Manfred. Things like that extra burst of speed when crossing the busy street or when rounding that corner, are no longer a concern.

Honestly, I am not convinced from the design that the martingale collar is fool proof when it comes to that "step behind" routine to get rid of the collar.

99 out of 100 is not good enough... one incident is enough to cause a fatal accident.

Also, Manfred is now 57lbs at 5 months and 1 week, so he is a pretty big size compared to his age. 

So on one hand, I personally hate the prong collar, I know it hurts, but I cant deny its obvious benefits.

I have read people write that prong collars have caused lacerations on the necks of their dogs, so thats another major concern.

Its **** confusing!


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## Shaina

You should REALLY read this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/176547-my-heart-literally-stopped.html

This dog almost got hit while using a prong collar. LOTS of good advice in that thread.


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## msvette2u

Prongs can pop apart easily. 
And (IMO) they are too harsh for a puppy. 
If you need a prong to walk him so he doesn't pull, you're doing something wrong 

We advise martingales for use in dogs under 1yr. of age. They are the same concept of a prong without the prong. They tighten when the puppy pulls, so it cannot back out of it. 
But there's ways to teach them to not pull which I'd actually advise for the pulling aspect.


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## NancyJ

Never seen a laceration from a prong collar. FWIW you can get the rubber tips to go on the prongs pretty cheaply. How does this happen? 

I have put it on my leg and do not believe it is that painful at the level, at least how much tension my own dog has put on it. 

He has had two short yelps in the past 2 weeks on the prong and i believe both were more out of surprise than anything else...and they were simply "yelp". Not yelp yelp yelp yelp.


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## Shaina

FWIW, I started using a prong on Versailles when she was about 5 months old CORRECTLY and it has done no harm to her or our progress in training. We use it while we rollerblade now so she doesnt have the opportunity to pull me on my face if we go very fast and I need to stop as well as in training. I used a martingale as well, but I don't like using anything that constricts because I worry about trachea damage.


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## doggiedad

the point is don't depend on a certain collar or harness.
train the dog to heel. 



martemchik said:


> His dog is 5 months old, I know many of you have had 4 month old pups that heeled and recalled at 100% but some people don't have the luxury. Until he can train him, this might be his only option.


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## msvette2u

Not to mention, martingales are also called limited slip. It's not like they strangle the dog. They are just safer than many choices out there for multiple reasons.


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## Syaoransbear

The safety I used was a coupler with one side cut off. It looked like this:










I hooked the clip to the d ring on the flat collar, and then I attached the leash to the coupler ring and to the live ring on the prong. I don't have to use it now that I use a secret power prong though. 

I have never, ever encountered lacerations on my dogs neck, and I've never heard of that happening honestly. I think that might be just a rumor spread by people who are against the use of prongs. I've never even seen redness, scratches, or irritation. I've yanked this thing on my thigh and the pressure gets so evenly distributed that I can't imagine a prong ever puncturing(unless the prongs were purposely sharpened). The only time that even seems possible is if someone has the prong on very tight and they attempt to hang their dog with a prong collar. But that's just ridiculous.

If you are just worried about slipping, a martingale would be fine. If sighthounds can't get their itty bitty heads through those collars, your pup should be fine if it's properly fitted. The collar will just tighten more the more your dog struggles to back out of it. For safety reasons I'd trust a martingale collar over a prong.


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## GregK

Kaz said:


> And to clarify another point: Manfred had been very well trained to walk well on the leash on harness or collar. That is not the issue.


 


Kaz said:


> He has tried the old trick "step behind the handler and lower head" so that the collar - leash slips off his neck at a pull, but then he has yelped in pain since the prongs do their job.


 


Kaz said:


> Renata, my fiancee, who strongly protested against the prong collar now actually prefers it while going for walks with Manfred. Things like that extra burst of speed when crossing the busy street or when rounding that corner, are no longer a concern.


 
If he's been 'very well trained to walk well on the leash on harness or collar' then there souldn't be any concerns about stepping behind the handler to get out of the collar or any bursts of speed. :thinking:




doggiedad said:


> the point is don't depend on a certain collar or harness.
> train the dog to heel.


 
:thumbup:


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## Syaoransbear

It's just a puppy. I don't see anything wrong with playing it safe and having a device the puppy can't back out of. I would never completely depend on the training of a 4 month old puppy to ensure its safety.


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## Kaz

Syaoransbear said:


> It's just a puppy. I don't see anything wrong with playing it safe and having a device the puppy can't back out of. I would never completely depend on the training of a 4 month old puppy to ensure its safety.



^THIS summarizes things succinctly and correctly!

Enough said!


We got a martingale collar today. And returned the prong collar. The martingale is surprisingly resistant to slipping off. 

In the past few days when I tried the prong, even though I was impressed by its efficacy, it always made me and my fiancee very very nervous every time we went for a walk for the fear of hurting Manfred.

Over the next few days I will test out the martingale, hopefully it will be the "secure" solution we seek.


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## Bismarck

i've volunteered for over 5 years for a rescue, where 99% of the time we use prong collars.

never...ever have i seen a laceration from a prong collar.

haters will make up stories because they think it hurts the dog, which when used correctly, does NOT hurt the dog.
when your dog tried to back out of it like it was used to doing, and experienced the pinch, it yelped in surprise. it wasn't expecting to be corrected.

can a prong collar, used incorrectly, injure a dog. you betcha!

can a flat collar, a martingale collar, a choke, used incorrectly injure a dog? you betcha.

it's up to you to learn how to properly use the tools you choose, and yes, a flat collar is a tool, a prong collar is a tool, a choke is a tool.

there are "horror" stories for every kind of device. before you say i'm never going to use one because it looks terrible and hurts the dog, get some advice and training from someone who knows how to train a dog with the various tools out there.
yes, there are in fact different methods to train dogs, and not all methods or tools work with each and every dog. again, you have to decide what tool is best for you and your dog.


*edit*
but i also believe you should be using positive training techniques with a puppy.


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## CelticGlory

Kaz said:


> Thank you.
> 
> This is a hard decision for me, because I have advocated harnesses.
> 
> I just hate the prongs....
> 
> Manfred showed 5 signs of pain in a one mile walk with this prong collar.
> 
> I am heavily inclined towards the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Herm Sprenger Original NEW Pinch Collar!!! - "Neck Tech" - Stainless Steel - Includes Stainless Steel Snap Hook - This Collar Is 24" - Includes 10 Links - Adjustable - Will Never Rust!!! This Product Has a Life Time Warranty!!!: Pet Suppl.
> 
> It seems a little more humane, and better made.



I would go with a prong that looks like a regular collar. I'm waiting to buy my own since I don't have a dog let alone a puppy yet. The collars are coming last on my list. I would also invest in a working harness, I like the look of the sturdiness of them, better than the regular harnesses you see in the pet stores. I like the Ryan Allen harnesses they have. From the looks of them it looks like it would be hard for the dog to slip out of them. They even have padded ones as well.


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## arycrest

Syaoransbear said:


> ...
> I have never, ever encountered lacerations on my dogs neck, and I've never heard of that happening honestly. I think that might be just a rumor spread by people who are against the use of prongs. I've never even seen redness, scratches, or irritation. I've yanked this thing on my thigh and the pressure gets so evenly distributed that I can't imagine a prong ever puncturing(unless the prongs were purposely sharpened). The only time that even seems possible is if someone has the prong on very tight and they attempt to hang their dog with a prong collar. But that's just ridiculous.
> ...


 I agree. I've been using prong collars for over 30 years, know a lot of people who use them, and never heard of any problems associated with the proper use of them!


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## LoveEcho

arycrest said:


> I agree. I've been using prong collars for over 30 years, know a lot of people who use them, and never heard of any problems associated with the proper use of them!


Exactly--proper use. I would strongly advise against using a prong without first having it *properly fitted* by someone who knows what they're doing. A prong does NOT hurt-- they'll yelp in protest, not in pain. They do throw temper tantrums, keep that in mind. It's a new sensation, and it is confrontational to them-- but it is NOT painful if fitted and used properly. I hate to think of what these people you're talking about, writing about lacerations, are doing to their dogs. If you buy an ill-fitted, cheap collar with rough edges, and abuse the collar, then possibly. The Sprenger collars are specifically designed with rounded edges on the prongs. 

Prongs are a great tool for training-- but I wouldn't use one as a failsafe.

Also-- something I learned that has actually been useful, if they get loose-- run in the opposite direction. Yell their name, and run away from them... they WILL follow you.


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## msvette2u

LoveEcho said:


> Prongs are a great tool for training-- but I wouldn't use one as a failsafe.


Ditto. If you're using it just to try to keep a collar on a collar-slipper, that's not the correct use. 
They are for training, too, training a "heel", not for leisure walks. If you want him ranging ahead of you and not by your heel, do not use a prong.




LoveEcho said:


> Also-- something I learned that has actually been useful, if they get loose-- run in the opposite direction. Yell their name, and run away from them...* they WILL follow you.*


Usually. Not always.


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## Chicagocanine

I really can't think of any good reason to use a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy.

If you are just looking for something secure that the puppy can't back out of, there are plenty of alternatives and a prong collar would not be at the top of my list for that use. Prongs can come apart fairly easily; there are many other collar or harness types that are a lot more secure.


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## lorihd

i just switched my dog to a pronge when she was 6 mos old, she was a real pain in the ass to walk, lungeing, etc my trainer recommended i do so in the beginning of our classes, i was very hesitant, but did switch and im glad i did. she is a pleasure to walk now, no funny business anymore and the nice thing is my trainer fitted her with it and im under her supervision (she has been training for 40 years) and knows her stuff.


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## marshies

Glad to see you're on the martingale.

I just had my prong slip off on me and pupper run into traffic. She ran UNDER the front of an SUV that was just starting up again. She was safe, but I am on tab + prong and leash + flat now. 

I don't use backup with flat collars.

I know harnesses slip easily, and when I had pupper on a harness, also had her leash attached to a flat collar. The leash was adjusted so that the leash length between harness and my hand is shorter than the distance between flat collar and my hand. That way, any pull on the leash went to the harness, and wasn't felt on the flat collar. But I would still retain control on her if she slipped the harness.

Hope one of the options may be helpful to you


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## Kaz

One topic I want to bring up: *when I hooked the leash to the prong collar and his regular collar, I barely got the effect as compared to hooking the leash ONLY to the prong collar.*

Agreed hooking to both is safer, but personally I felt if I dont get the desired effect, why even put on the prong collar.

Manfred and I went for a 6 mile walk today on the martingale. Well he is a chill dog, so anyway it was no problem.

The martingale is working fine, and comparing $15.00 for the martingale to the $44 for the prong collar, its a good ROI too.

Sticking with the martingale for now.


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## NancyJ

The backup collar needs to be in a position not to interfere with the pinch; it should be "invisible" to you in that regard. If the martingale is working and you are not being pulled all over without a pinch it should not be a problem. For just pulling on a puppy, I would be on the dead ring anyway.

How are people walking these dogs when the collars come off? I have had prongs since 1986 and my only failure was once on the quick release. Only thing is when my dogs go on a walk they are expected to stay roughly in the heel position but not formally heeling. Sniffing and going out on the lead is only at designated spots--normally my dogs are asked to potty before the walk. Usually if I am doing leisure like potty break on a long line or any scentwork I swap over completely to the flat collar.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm wondering the same thing. I've only had problems with quick release too, never actually had a link/prong coming apart.... I've fiddled with the two prong collars I have and cannot figure out, if the prongs are fully inserted into the preceeding links, how they can fail?



jocoyn said:


> The backup collar needs to be in a position not to interfere with the pinch; it should be "invisible" to you in that regard. If the martingale is working and you are not being pulled all over without a pinch it should not be a problem. For just pulling on a puppy, I would be on the dead ring anyway.
> 
> How are people walking these dogs when the collars come off? I have had prongs since 1986 and my only failure was once on the quick release. Only thing is when my dogs go on a walk they are expected to stay roughly in the heel position but not formally heeling. Sniffing and going out on the lead is only at designated spots--normally my dogs are asked to potty before the walk. Usually if I am doing leisure like potty break on a long line or any scentwork I swap over completely to the flat collar.


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## ayoitzrimz

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. I've only had problems with quick release too, never actually had a link/prong coming apart.... I've fiddled with the two prong collars I have and cannot figure out, if the prongs are fully inserted into the preceeding links, how they can fail?


Those things get bent after a while, especially if you hook/unhook the same prong all the time and especially if you use the cheaper brands. this happened to me once with the petstore brands, since then I bought a HS and never had any issues with the quick release or the prongs. Another thing that happens (and this happened to me lol) is you accidentally dont hook both sides of the prong in (only hook one side) it holds for a few minutes and will snap open very quickly unless there is constant tension holding it in place (there shouldn't be since the goal is to get the dog not to constantly pull against the prong right?).

Hate to say it, but I agree with the people that said "get a solid recall, get a solid instant down" etc. If the dog understands heeling and there is no tension on the leash or prong, even if it snaps open the dog shouldn't just bolt, in fact he wouldn't even feel the lack of tension (since there is none). Now, if you take a dog and get him pulling against the prong (dont) and then use the quick release to let go that dog is going to bolt lol.

My point is, a solid recall and / or instant down should be the thing that alleviates worries about the prong breaking. A solid herm sprenger prong will also not break as easily as store brand prongs.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ah...O.k. that makes sense - still even if the prongs get bent if the collar is properly fitted (snug) that should be an infrequent occurance..I would think.

Right now I use prongs that I bought at tractor supply, so far no issues. I'm looking to upgrade to HS (curogan for a wee bit of bling  )

Still, always better safe then sorry, back up collar and a solid recall make sense too!!






ayoitzrimz said:


> Those things get bent after a while, especially if you hook/unhook the same prong all the time and especially if you use the cheaper brands. this happened to me once with the petstore brands, since then I bought a HS and never had any issues with the quick release or the prongs. Another thing that happens (and this happened to me lol) is you accidentally dont hook both sides of the prong in (only hook one side) it holds for a few minutes and will snap open very quickly unless there is constant tension holding it in place (there shouldn't be since the goal is to get the dog not to constantly pull against the prong right?).
> 
> Hate to say it, but I agree with the people that said "get a solid recall, get a solid instant down" etc. If the dog understands heeling and there is no tension on the leash or prong, even if it snaps open the dog shouldn't just bolt, in fact he wouldn't even feel the lack of tension (since there is none). Now, if you take a dog and get him pulling against the prong (dont) and then use the quick release to let go that dog is going to bolt lol.
> 
> My point is, a solid recall and / or instant down should be the thing that alleviates worries about the prong breaking. A solid herm sprenger prong will also not break as easily as store brand prongs.


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## hunterisgreat

You probably did not need an XL. I'm getting ready to step down to a herm ~2mm prong... the smallest prongs they make. Easier to configure, easier to put on or remove. I also have several neck techs from HS. They are really nice, and I'm pretty sure they cannot fail


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## msvette2u

I was going to say that back then (XL collar) that caught my eye then forgot to.
Even our fully grown 90lb. GSD did not take an XL. That can't be correct.

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

The prong should be fitted "high collar" as it's commonly known, up right behind the base of the skull. If it's fitting any other way, it's not fitted right.
It should not be sliding down - if it is, it's not snug enough. Take out a link or two. 
Fit right, it ought to be uncomfortable for the dog_ should they pull. _ It is designed to be uncomfortable for the dog. 
If they pull and continue to pull, something is wrong, the collar is not being used properly.

And again if you intend to not make the dog heel the entire walk, do not use a prong. It's only for making the dog walk at a nice "heel" pace, it is not for letting the dog range out ahead of you.

And all that said, I still believe a puppy ought to be working on non-compulsion heeling, that is, heeling and walking ought to be fun and you should be using positive techniques to get a puppy to heel. 

If you waited until the dog is 9 + mos to work on a heel and have to resort to a prong, that's one thing. But dogs should be taught to heel long before that occurs.


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