# Really BAD dog....



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok so this morning me and my bf were driving to get coffee and Kilo was in the back. He started acting like a FOOL. Biting my sweater, Biting my arms, biting the sheet he sits on, biting the seatbelt. He is usually VERY calm. All of a sudden he is acting like he has rabies latley in the morning.
Its like a burst of energy for about 20 min.
Then he is OUT sleeping.
I dont get this. He is usually a good dog.
He just ignores me now. I am VERY firm with him.
He KNOWS what I want him to do....he just DOESNT want to do it.
How do I fix this before he starts doing it ALL THE TIME????
Im so upset.
Hes a good dog....its like hes developed slective hearing.
Please help.

Ps He just turned 1.
I am also going to be meeting with my breeder/trainer soon.
I just want to see if you guys have been through this.
Thanks so much


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Benny is almost 7 months and has been doing this for the past few weeks. He gets an attack of the "playzies". His eyes glisten exuberantly and he wants to play tug with the leash, my pants. sleeve. runs full speed back and forth on the leash and then settles down again. I think it is the age and also need a way to deal with it. I think Benny senses that I sort of enjoy it too







Wish we could get Benny and Kilo together to play!


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

I love that term, the playzies. 
I think it's just the age also. There's still a lot of puppy in a 1 yr old dog.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont enjoy this kind of playing! lol
It hurts, and its frusterating to get him to stop.
YES they should play togther!!!!!!! lol


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DebbiegBenny is almost 7 months and has been doing this for the past few weeks. He gets an attack of the "playzies".


I have never quite heard it put like that but I think that's an accurate name







I would describe that typical teenage behavior. Wolfie does that too. Usually we take it as a signal of needing more exercise and that usually works. Sometimes, it is just an attention getting tactic. If redirection doesn't work, he gets put in his crate for a 5 minute timeout. Many times after the nutbag act, however, he wants to do snuggles.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: doggydogI love that term, the playzies.
> I think it's just the age also. There's still a lot of puppy in a 1 yr old dog.


Heck...Mandi is 21 months old and there is still a lot pf puppy in her, too!!

You got another year to year and a half of this. Cherish it, one day you might miss it.








Stay firm with him, but also know that he may be needing a few extra minutes of playtime and excersise in the mornings for a while.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Its as soon as we wake up...and get in the car. He plays for 4 hours everyday.
I dont know where the burst comes from?
Maybe hes happy?
But its unacceptable behavior.
He bites me and it hurts. I say "NO BITE" he starts vocalizing to me and then does it again.
Then he chews my sweater and the sealtbelt etc


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

He may also be getting excited for the car ride to...... someplace exciting. 

Kayla is 4.5 and gets into the whining, circling whenever we head toward any of our fun spots- any park for hiking/swimming, her agility class down to the pet store. She's in back and can't get to the front

One way to work on it...when he starts getting "playzies" (like th.at term!) pull over and stop until he settles down. And then continue on. This is the automobile version of the "stop and stand like tree" version for working on loose leash walking. Just make sure it's a trip where it's safe to pull over a lot!

At 1 yrs, he's still a puppy


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

He might just be excited for the car ride...do you wake up and get right in the car? (after pee breaks, of course). If so, maybe he just wants to play a little before the ride. We make sure to play for at least fifteen minutes before a car ride. She loves that morning air, all the animal sounds and leftover smells from the night, and really loves a series of early morning wild dashes around the yard.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I try not to run him right after he eats....
and we leave like 15 min after he eats.
I dont know...maybe I should just leave him home....?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

just need to say any dog that acts out in car needs to probably be restrained in a crate.What does play for 4 hours a day mean.Is he free to do what he wants and playing by himself-or are you playing and or training and interacting with him?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RI try not to run him right after he eats....


Sometimes, Wolfie acts like a nutso right after he eats. So I understand your dilemma about the exercising on full belly. We just play tug with him in that case. That tends to calm him down.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogjust need to say any dog that acts out in car needs to probably be restrained in a crate.What does play for 4 hours a day mean.Is he free to do what he wants and playing by himself-or are you playing and or training and interacting with him?



I am training/interacting with him THE WHOLE TIME. My dog is with me 24/7, literally.
And he is like 95 pounds....I dont have a big enough car for a crate that big!!!!!!! lol
No way!
He only acts like a jerk in the morning. Prolly cause hes ready to go play....


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Big enough crate wouldn't fit in my car either and still have room for my kids. So I have a 2' chain leash attached to the kid seat latch system (these are attached to the car's frame). Otto wears a harness when he rides in the car and I attach the chain leash to that. Chain leash because he ATE the safety belts in the jump seat...


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaBig enough crate wouldn't fit in my car either and still have room for my kids. So I have a 2' chain leash attached to the kid seat latch system (these are attached to the car's frame). Otto wears a harness when he rides in the car and I attach the chain leash to that. Chain leash because he ATE the safety belts in the jump seat...


Yah my Audi is ruined b/c he chewed the seatbelts. UGH oh well.
Maybe Im just buggin out about this "morning rabies"








Ill try and run him fr like 15 min before breakfast....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Does he wear a a seatbelt/harness/restraint in the car? 

Can you give him a stuffed Kong to work on when you get ready to drive with him?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

He can get away with it when you're driving and knows it.

Next time, pull over, correct him and get him under control before going on. You will likely have a very stop-start trip for a few mornings, but once he understands that the car is not a play ground, you'll have a better trip.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Look in the back seat for the latch connectors - they should be pretty far down and right in the middle of the seat. With a chain leash ($10) and a harness ($15), he will be much safer riding in the car (think 95lb airborn projectile if you stop short), there will be no biting in the car and it'll really cut down on the nose art you have to clean up.

There are dog car harnesses but I found they were expensive for something that Otto could EAT and I already had a harness for him.

When I installed the chain leash latch system I was like 'Ha, you try to eat that buddy boy!' 

I think I heard him chewing on the chain but good luck to him.

Yeah he could eat his harness but the one he has is a handmedown from Luther, I have another one just like it that could be on him for the next ride.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Sometimes this behavior means they need to go potty! 

Tanya


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Yah Ill have to try a harness or stop and correct him.
He always uses the bathroom before we take a carride..so I dont think thats it.
zyp -"He can get away with it when you're driving and knows it."
I agree with that!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Sounds like a butt head stage. Bison did that. Just wake up one morning and he decides he is going to be a jerk. Ignore commands...naughty behavior... lasts for about a week and then pops up again every 2 months or so.

Just remain consistent and firm. IMO they are testing boundries.

Don't know if it will work for you, but if you know you are going to take him in the car exercise him first and feed him when you get home.


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## [email protected] (Apr 8, 2009)

Nose art







.... I've never heard that before.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieSounds like a butt head stage. Bison did that. Just wake up one morning and he decides he is going to be a jerk. Ignore commands...naughty behavior... lasts for about a week and then pops up again every 2 months or so.
> 
> Just remain consistent and firm. IMO they are testing boundries.
> 
> Don't know if it will work for you, but if you know you are going to take him in the car exercise him first and feed him when you get home.



Yeah, sounds right. He doesnt do it all the time. Just sometimes.
UGH lol.
Like this morning he was perfect in the car!
Ill try and run him for a few before the ride.
but Ill have to feed him, or he barfs up foam on an empty tummy on a car ride ICK!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieSounds like a butt head stage. Bison did that. Just wake up one morning and he decides he is going to be a jerk.










I call it hiney-head


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

zyp -"He can get away with it when you're driving and knows it."
I agree with that!








[/quote]\


He knows when your driving it's his turn to drive too-- drive you crazy!









Benny was being too quiet in the dark back seat of the car Thursday night and it was not until the next morning I discovered he had gotten into a bag of persimmons someone had given me at work. My car has "persimmon art" and he had some interesting poop on Friday.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Angel, I'm going to say something that may come across as perhaps a bit harsh, and I don't intend that.

But in this thread you call your dog a "bad dog," and a "jerk." You said in another thread this week that you don't train with treats. You say that you are "VERY firm with him," which worries me in the context of the other comments. 

You state that your dog KNOWS what he's supposed to do, but he chooses not to do it.

And now you say that your dog ignores you; that he's developed "selective hearing."

Yes, there IS adolescence.

Your dog is not a puppy. He's an adolescent, and adolescence is a trying time for most of us.

But I have to wonder what exactly is going on within your relationship.

First, often -- more often than we think -- our young dogs don't KNOW what to do. They guess. And often, they guess correctly. If you're standing in the kitchen and have their food bowl in your hands, there are only so many options that make sense. The most logical one is to sit, so sit the dog does, and he gets his food bowl.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that a dog truly knows what SIT means is all situation. If he hasn't been worked in a large variety of locations, he may not know what sit means, when a fire engine is driving down the street rolling code and you're on a sidewalk shouting it at him at the top of your lungs to be heard (because he's never heard you speak like that). Or if you're lying down when you tripped over a sprinkler at the park (because he's only seen you tell him to sit from a standing position), or if your grandmother tells him to do so. Next time your dog is lying down, ask him to sit. Does he pop up and into position? 

All of these are part of KNOWING what SIT means. But for most dogs, "my owner standing in front of me, waiting" means "sit." In fact, many young dogs, if the dog is standing in the heel position, will swing around to get in front of the handler to sit because they are so sure that SIT means being in front of the owner. A lot dogs, at a distance from their owners, will trot to get in front of their owners before sitting. 

So.... that's the deal about "knowing" vs. "guessing" vs. knowing but what they know is wrong (and actually, there's even more to that, but it takes too much space to discuss). Yes, some dogs do know and opt not to right then. But they might have a perfectly good reason not to do so Maybe the ground is really icy, or their knee hurts. Perhaps they're feeling a little bloated from breakfast. Or maybe they just didn't hear you. 

Despite what trainers always say that the dog ALWAYS hears you, dogs can get distracted. I've been in a park with my dog, told her to sit and was totally ignored, twice. I tapped on her shoulder, and she turned and looked at me, with a rather shocked look on her face. Only then did I look over my shoulder and I saw a Canada goose sitting quiety. Zamboni was so distractly by the goose, she didn't hear me. She proably forgot I was there. Once I had her attention, she sat nicely. I understood this completely because when Dh is watching a TV show he likes, I know better than to speak to him until commercial break. He doesn't hear me at all. 

I could think they're all jerks. Or I could remember that when I'm watching "House," and I get a phone call, I don't want to even answer the phone... Susan Clouthier discusses this in her book "Bones Would Rain from the Sky." I strongly recommend that you pick up a copy of the book and read it cover to cover. 

But... ok.... let's assume that our teenager knows what to do, and we've ruled out any reasonable reasons for not doing so. Then we have to look at the dynamic of the situation. 

Right now, it *feels* to me that you're putting all of the blame on your pup. He's bad. He's stubborn. He's being a jerk.

I think it's likely that you're not motivating him. I don't understand why you don't use treats in your training. I'm not one of those people who only use treats. I use toys. I use treats. I use praise. I use the opportunity to run our agility equipment after executing obedience commands appropriately (my beagle will do anything if she can run the dog walk afterward). I use running around and playing with me as a reinforcer. I've found that a reinforcer for a recall or a reinforcer for a well-executed down stay can simply be getting to run around and chase me... or to "go get Dad." My dogs love racing each other to get my husband who either lavishes attention on them, or takes off running and they get to chase him.

But treats -- especially savory high value meat treats -- are an integral part of my training process. First, we can't really run around after every single sit and down and get much accomplished. Second, most dogs value food. Not all -- my GSD isn't super food motivated, so I have to work hard to find food that he finds worthy of his work. 

But being able to mix up my reinforcers is very important. I would never work for just praise, and while I appreciated it when my boss would leave a Starbucks gift card on my desk with a note telling me that I did a great job on X project, that didn't cut it by itself either. A positive performance appraisal was very nice. But in the end, I worked for the salary.

I think that if you ask most dogs, they'll tell you that the right food (and this varies from dog to dog) is their salary. Unless a dog can't take treats for a health reason (like mega-e), I think you're denying yourself a very valuable training tool.

So, I'd start there. (Starting clicker training, imo, would be ideal.). And if you don't do so already, you should play interactively with him. I noticed in one of your earlier posts that your pup runs about 4 hours a day in your yard. And you said above that he plays 4 hours a day, so I'm not sure how much of this 4 hours is interactive. I would cut back a lot on the yard running (crate him if you must), so that when he's playing with you, all of his energy is focused on playing with you.

Then start playing fetch, soccer, frisbee, tug, find-it or whatever games you choose to play. See if you can join a tracking club, or just pick up this book http://www.amazon.com/Try-Tracking-Puppy-Primer/dp/1929242182 and start tracking on your own. Take an agility class.

If your dog is expending physical AND mental energy WITH you, you may find that your relationship will be more structured. He likely won't be so frenetic when he's with you. Yes, like Samuel's Kayla, my dogs get pretty darn excited when we're going to one of their favorite places, but not when we're just running errands.

I'm not there watching your training sessions, of course. But I just get a sense that none of you are having a really fun time, so not only is energy getting burned as it should be, but stressful energy is getting built up. So you're getting weird frantic energy directed at you when you least want it. 

I could be wrong. I hope you don't feel that I'm attacking you. I'm trying to be helpful based on what I've been reading over the last few weeks.

Either way, I wish you luck.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I understood this completely because when Dh is watching a TV show he likes, I know better than to speak to him until commercial break. He doesn't hear me at all. 


I hear you! My DH is like that with the TV and the computer!

This was a very helpful post. Defintely right on about our dogs guessing vs knowing what want from them. Benny, at almost 7 months will occasionally cycle through all his commands to guess what I want when he was so distracted by something that he did not fully hear me! During their adolescense sometimes the stimulus is so strong that it drowns us out. We have to work with them in distraction free areas and slowly increase the distractions.

Sometimes dogs don't obey because they are testing and sometimes because they are just confused and we have to in tune with them to really discern the difference. I am trying to do this with Benny's pulling on the leash. He knows he gets clicked, praise and treats when there is slack in the leash, but when he sees another dog or a cat, or a bicyclist or jogger flys past, chasing them seems to be a higher value reward. I have to somehow help Benny see that keeping the slack in the leash is a better reward and become more exciting to him then the distraction. This will take time. My 4 children were all born between 15 and 18 months apart and DH and I managed to get them all through the teen years without beating, berating them, or giving up and letting them run amuck,. We did use a version of NILF,(except love) mixed with listening. and mucyh encouragment, praise and rewards for good accomplishments. Each of my kids went through adolescence differently. For some it was easy and for others a real struggle and we needed help from a priest , counselor and occasionally the police. We had limits and boundaries that were clearly understood. They are between 21 and 25 now, well adjusted and we have a great relationship. I don't think this would be the case if I had been more severe with them or did not have those limits.

Dogs are not people and do not think the same way. We are not their moms and dads but there are similarities in that we must try to understand how they see the world, how they see us, and relate to them at their level, and help them to understand why doing what we ask will be good for them, better than chasing after a cat, grabbing food off the counter, drinking at a party, expermenting with drugs, speeding, etc. 

It takes time to build a relationship of trust between dog and owner where the dog know the owner will withold nothing truly good from them, and obedience bring the highest value rewards. A loving relationship where dog and owner truly know eachother is a slow but wonderful process of learning from eachother. 

I had a man tell me this morning that when Benny pulls I needed to turn the other way and yank him as hard as I could with the pinch collar until he yelps, He said after two times Benny will walk perfectly. I prefer a gentler approach even if it takes 2000 times. I tried to expain this to him but he just shook his head and said " Women, treat6 their dogs like they are babies and not dogs!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomAng
> 
> But in this thread you call your dog a "bad dog," and a "jerk." You said in another thread this week that you don't train with treats. You say that you are "VERY firm with him," which worries me in the context of the other comments.


I dont understand what you are implying by this?
I do not hurt my dog if that what you think. 
I use a prong collar on him. Which is legit training.
 Thats what works with him.
And I use praise. I just dont do the treat training.
Maybe I should not post here if that is what you think of me.
But thank you for your post...I do understand what you are saying.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think what Lori is trying to say is that if your dog is blowing you off and being a jerk, (and yes ALL of our dogs are capable of doing so from time to time), perhaps the training methods that you are currently using that "work with him" are not actually working all that well. If they were, you wouldn't be here asking for help with a problem, so maybe it's time to try something else? 

Motivational reward based training (vs compulsion training using corrective collars) is far more likely to produce a dog that happily, willingly complies with commands, that loves training, and enjoys working with you. That doesn't mean you can't ever use a correction, it's just a simple difference in philosophy - rather than focusing on what he's doing wrong, (or not doing), and correcting him, focus on what he's doing right and reward him for it. Find ways to set him up to succeed. Notice when he's NOT being a jerk, and tell him how wonderful he is. 

If he's getting reinforced for behaving badly, (and ANY attention whatsoever if reinforcing to a dog), he will keep doing it. If he's getting reinforced for behaving nicely and completely ignored when he's being a jerk (and I mean COMPLETELY ignored, he's the invisible dog, he doesn't exist, you don't look at him, talk to him, acknowledge him in any way) he'll figure out that doesn't work any more and he'll eventually stop. But what often happens is that we notice when they're being bad ("no, no bad dog!") and relax and breathe a sigh of relief when they're finally calm and relaxed, and.....we ignore them. It's human nature.







I try and make an effort to notice when my dogs are NOT bugging me, when they're just hanging out playing with a ball or chewing a bone, and I reinforce that - "good dog, chew that bone!" with a big smile on my face and a happy tone in my voice, that sort of thing. 

I do put limits on their behavior, and we have house rules that they are expected to comply with in order to get what they want - meals, walks, playtime, petting. But remember, dogs do what works. So make GOOD behavior work for him.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

He just sounds like a normal bored puppy that's full of energy.

I know for my dogs it's more important what I plan to do to exercise and train my dogs during the day, so that when I do need them quiet in the car or house it's easier for them cause the edge is off.

I can never exercise my dogs in the house/yard. Just doesn't work. My yard is too small for them to run and wear out playing ball/frisbee, they won't exercise themselves without me, and the added stimulation of a new place works much better.

Frankly, I have to plan to get them in the car and go off for hours long hikes in the woods to really wear them out. Plus the dog classes with the socialization and training we get there.

Dog classes are more about training me then my dog. So what I really know now, is if what I am doing is NOT working. Just doing it more/louder/with more force/angrier makes things WAY worse in the end. The method is the issue, not my tone/anger/loudness. Dog classes teach ME the method so my dog actually learns, learns fast and well, and I don't get angry or end up with a 'bad' dog (cause I have learned that my 'bad' dog is only bad cause she has a 'bad' owner/handler!!







)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9j96VPXF2Y how my dogs get exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Maggieroselee#p/u/13/xaLug61wp5U Socialization

http://www.youtube.com/user/Maggieroselee#p/u/5/0_Wobi0G1TA dog class


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I know, I know.
I just. Im with him 24/7 so I get frustated you know?
I do reinforce good behavior....but I guess I also reinforce bad as well.
And I do praise him when hes good.
I will be meeting with my trainer/breeder soon.
Ill also ask him for some new methods


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RI know, I know.
> I just. Im with him 24/7 so I get frustated you know?
> I do reinforce good behavior....but I guess I also reinforce bad as well.
> And I do praise him when hes good.
> ...


Watch the videos I posted. If you can get out and about with him and REALLY exercise him. REALLY socialize him. REALLY start with a weekly training set of group dog classes ASAP, I think you will very quickly see improvements and settling down. 

GSD's can be very hard to work with, and I've found every week I put off dealing with a new issue makes things WAY harder. The earlier I address a problem properly, the faster it goes away and with much less frustration for me, and confusion for my pup.

I'm now on my 4th puppy to raise and been in dog classes with my puppy since I got her at 10 weeks, and in dog classes with my 5 yr old since she was 6 months old! When I ever get my next puppy I will do the same cause I can keep learning and it only benefits my dogs.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks! I will check them out.
Thanks so much for the help!!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee



~sigh~ I want one of those Wildhaus babies someday.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Angel R said:


> I know, I know.
> I just. Im with him 24/7 so I get frustated you know?
> I do reinforce good behavior....but I guess I also reinforce bad as well.
> And I do praise him when hes good.
> ...


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks DebbieG. I am going to see new ways I can keep his mind and body stimulated.
When he doesnt listen...maybe Ill just walk away and ignore him.
He thinks Im playing when I say NO.
Then he will start "talking" to me.
So, I will quit saying no, and just use praise when he is good.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I am not criticizing but a comment that you are with your dog 24/7 is probably not really thinking it through.My dog is left at home about 20 daytime hours-when I have to work.I always THINK I am giving him at least 2 hrs of quality exercise /training.If I am training and my mind is elsewhere-he knows it.I can have him track-fetch heel-watch me -tug. Life is tough and sometimes I am just going through the motions My body can be there but if it is NOT one on one HE knows.A good sign if I am really there and really working him he will sometimes just flop down and relax in the middle of play/train or even take a fav toy and go to door like 'enough'-let me in.today was a GOOD day he went to bed about 2 hrs ago and is down to stay.If he wasn't challenged enough he would be at my feet watching my every move.He is NOT a youngster.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI am not criticizing but a comment that you are with your dog 24/7 is probably not really thinking it through.My dog is left at home about 20 daytime hours-when I have to work.I always THINK I am giving him at least 2 hrs of quality exercise /training.If I am training and my mind is elsewhere-he knows it.I can have him track-fetch heel-watch me -tug. Life is tough and sometimes I am just going through the motions My body can be there but if it is NOT one on one HE knows.A good sign if I am really there and really working him he will sometimes just flop down and relax in the middle of play/train or even take a fav toy and go to door like 'enough'-let me in.today was a GOOD day he went to bed about 2 hrs ago and is down to stay.If he wasn't challenged enough he would be at my feet watching my every move.He is NOT a youngster.




I do not work. My dog is NOT crated, EVER. I take him EVERYWHERE.
I am with my dog 24/7. I truley am.
I leave him sometimes for 20 min to go tanning, and thats not everyday.
Maybe I should let him have some alone time.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

When you work with him or exercise him, is it always the same thing or something similar?

Otto could play ball 10 hours a day and take a 1 hour walk through the neighborhood but still not get what he needs. He needs to go out to see at least one new place every week or a repeat of somewhere he went last month but not recently. He needs to meet new people and be put in new situations. 

This not only keeps his mind sharp, every time we go somewhere different, his behavior (he gets excited and tries to walk me) improves becuase he's been exposed to more and it's all been happy. Then he comes home and becomes the blob on the floor for a few hours.

Does that make sense? I guess that part boils down to teaching him self confidence.

Keep him guessing, always expand his comfort circle. Sometimes you might take him too far outside his comfort zone and regret it that day. You won't regret it in a month.

Otto's training today was to go to the post office. He goes about once a month, knows the drill except this time my oldest son was with us. Otto feeds off my son's kinetic energy. It was pretty wacky for a few minutes. Never mind that the post office is in the same building as the dog groomer, where Otto does not want to be!

After we left the PO, they both simmered down, we walked around the cove and watched a boat get hauled. The boy was asking a million questions so I wasn't too focused on Otto other than reminding him 5 times to sit. Was pleasantly surprised with how well Otto handled sitting on the side of the boat ramp with a bunch of strangers while my son was very animated.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaWhen you work with him or exercise him, is it always the same thing or something similar?
> 
> Otto could play ball 10 hours a day and take a 1 hour walk through the neighborhood but still not get what he needs. He needs to go out to see at least one new place every week or a repeat of somewhere he went last month but not recently. He needs to meet new people and be put in new situations.
> 
> ...


Well I try to teach him simple things when playing. Liek "Drop it" (so he gives me the ball.)
And "Right here" (at my right side.)
Thats bout it. 
I guess I do need to take him more places, but my other post was what confused me.
My bf said Kilo might have been jealous I brought someone else on the walk. 
Walks are usually "our thing". Does that make sense?
For exceriseI do 1 hour in the morning. We go for a walk later and go visit some friends, maybe a doggy date. Then running again for 1 hour. (Involves me hitting a tennis ball with a bat and running also)
Then an hour break, and then 1 more hour before it gets dark.
Training is usually done in the house. Sit, stay etc. (Ill hide something for him so he can find it.)
Hes pretty tired at night, and wont really wake up.
One more potty break at about 12am.
The at 8 am he is RAGING to go outside. LOL.
I should let him play a bit I guess before I feed him ?
This week I will be bringing him to a new place everyday.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> I am with my dog 24/7. I truley am.
> I leave him sometimes for 20 min to go tanning, and thats not everyday.
> Maybe I should let him have some alone time.



Dogs that are with their owners 24/7 and are never crated (to create alone time) easily get over-bonded. I'm surprised that your trainer hasn't discussed this with you. 



> Quote:
> 
> 
> You're Grounded!
> ...


whole article at: http://www.mysmartpuppy.com/articles/YoureGrounded.htm


I don't buy into the whole dominance/submissive thing entirely, but I think she's right. Dogs that never learn to be alone, never learn to be independent. They never learn to self-entertain (even if it's just snoozing); they often get anxious when their owners get too far away from them, and they can become pushy. These behaviors then carry over to other parts of the relationship.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks 3K9Mom> This is a good article.
I rarely see my trainer, so its not his fault.
Its mine. I will have to start leaving him alone longer.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Do pick up that book by Suzanne Clothier as well. I think you will like it. It is one of my favorites and it is written so it reads like a good novel.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

It's worthwhile to note that the go to your room routine also works without a crate. Otto hasn't been crated much since he was about 6 month old. Few times here or there when I've had parties and wasn't able to attend to him like I need to.

When he goes to his room, he goes to the kitchen. This is where he is confined when I am not home. When Luther was with me, the mudroom was his room becuase he'd steal things from the kitchen. Morgan, she liked her crate so I used that. 

See where I'm going with this? Dog needs his personal space, his comfort zone. Sometimes I've found they just need to go to their space and chill out, maybe take a nap, have some alone time, dream about actually catching that squirrel or whatever it is dogs dream about.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I think what Lori is trying to say is that if your dog is blowing you off and being a jerk, (and yes ALL of our dogs are capable of doing so from time to time), perhaps the training methods that you are currently using that "work with him" are not actually working all that well. If they were, you wouldn't be here asking for help with a problem, so maybe it's time to try something else?
> 
> Motivational reward based training (vs compulsion training using corrective collars) is far more likely to produce a dog that happily, willingly complies with commands, that loves training, and enjoys working with you. That doesn't mean you can't ever use a correction, it's just a simple difference in philosophy - rather than focusing on what he's doing wrong, (or not doing), and correcting him, focus on what he's doing right and reward him for it. Find ways to set him up to succeed. Notice when he's NOT being a jerk, and tell him how wonderful he is.


Have to say it makes me a bit sad that you refuse to use treats.







If something is GUARANTEED to work and work well, why not try it? Food, used properly, is not a 'bribe' but a reward that is VERY clear, very concise and that will excite our dogs about learning and listening to us!

So if something is GUARANTEED to work well, fast, and is clear to my dog........why wouldn't I add it to my bag of training tricks? Did you see my sable agility dog in those photos? The one with not only no leash, but no collar at all? In public, working a course she's never seen before?

She was trained with treats and toys. No prong in agility but we certainly use it in other training venues. Positive training doesn't mean there are no rules. 

The vast majority of the best trainers in the world use treats and toys to train and motivate their dogs. If they can change and learn and do better, to benefit the dog and their training methods, then SIGN ME UP! I can learn a new and better way too!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

bottom line, I would sign him up for a class, it can be a tremendous 
learning experience for BOTH dog and owner.

I offered my 2cent in your other thread here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1255519&page=0#Post1255519


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I would just like to say, thanks for all the help.
Today went way smoother bc I did not give him ANY ATTENTION when he was being whiney, bitey etc
My day was wonderful!
Only positive training! And what a difference.
Also yes, he is a dog and I should not have expected so much of him.
Today I was proud as a local police officer thought he was a police dog!!
I said "no, hes just my best friend!" He was SO surprised at Kilos great behavior!
Kilo was ignoring all the other dogs at the park, totally focused on me!
Thanks for all yor help everyone!!!!!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Angel, that's great news.

Also, I just wanted to give you a book recommendation that I think would be super helpful: _Chill Out Fido! How to Calm Your Dog, _ by Nan Arthur. 
http://www.dogwise.com/authpub/chilloutfido_excerpt.pdf

It's one of my top training books. I can't believe that I didn't think to suggest it before. I was looking at my book shelf for something to read last night and I saw it, and thought, "Angel could use this!" I re-read the first several chapters, and thought, she could REALLY use this! 

One of the things that Arther mentions that I thought might apply to you (and a lot of other dogs on this forum) is sleep deprivation. She said that it's been shown that dogs need about 17 hours of sleep (snoozing and deep sleep). How many of our dogs (and I include mine -- especially my working dog) get that? We wonder why people who toss their dogs in the back yard all day, only to play with them a bit at night seem to have less reactive dogs. And it's always amazed me that when I travel to 3rd world countries that feral dogs aren't reactive at all. They're timid, but not reactive. Yes, they're socialized by necessity. But it's likely that they're getting a lot more sleep too; they only move when they need to. (Arthur says they're also not getting over-stimulated by too much exercise). 

But how many of us (and I'm not directly this at you, per se) can't help ourselves and pet our dogs when they're snoozing or sleeping because they're so cute? Or we live in busy households, so they never get to rest in the first place? Or, we think we're providing them "quiet spaces," but we're in and out of those rooms (doing laundry, doing dishes, whatever), so they're not falling into deep sleep. Or it simply never dawns on us that our dogs -- especially our young growing puppies and adolescents (remember that GSDs continue to grow until they're 2 years old) -- need A LOT of sleep. And then adult dogs still need, according to Arthur, way more than the 8-ish hours that adult humans require. 

We think we're being good owners taking them everywhere with us ALL of the time because they need socialization, and we like having them with us. But well, we're denying them of something else they desperately need.

Plus, along the way, someone told us that if our dog is lying in our walking path, even if he's sound asleep, we need to make him move. Even though he would have NO idea that you just stepped over him that one time because he was deep in dreams... yep, that's what some trainers (including a certain TV "trainer") tell us that leaders do. Then there are velcro dogs (that some owners think are just "cute." They mistake over-bonding for love). These dogs get up every time the owner moves all day long. They only sleep deeply when the owner does. 

I know how punchy I get when I don't get enough sleep after one or two nights. I know that I start getting rather cranky if it continues. I can't imagine living that way as a lifestyle. 

I think that's why Sarah Wilson, in her article that I partially cited above, specifically says to use crates. I have crates throughout my house so that I can crate my dogs where I won't be, so that I won't disturb them when they're sleeping. If I'm working in the back part of the house, I crate them in the front. If I'm working in the front part, they are crated in the back bedroom. 

Do my dogs *have* to be crated (from a behavioral point of view)? No, not really. Celo sleeps through the night without a crate. He's very reliable. I also have beds strewn throughout the house and the dogs will go lie on their beds for naps whenever they want. But at least once a day (twice for the puppy) , I want them to shut their brains off entirely and get some good sleep. A crate is the best way to ensure they do that. I use plastic crates which help to shut out the rest of the world. Are they attractive in my house? Nope. They're rather ugly. But when I got my dogs, I committed myself to their health and happiness over all other concerns. 

I play some very soft peaceful music and leave them to dream. In particular, dreams form neural pathways that help process what they've experienced the rest of the day. It's been proven to help create a more intelligent dog. And from what Nan Arthur says, it makes create a more mellow dog. I believe it does. 

Her book has all sorts of helpful info like this. This is just one golden nugget. She also offers several exercises to help train a dog to Chill Out. This book is worth more than its purchase price. I bought it as a back-up reference at a seminar with the same name, but I've learned A LOT from it.

I think you will too.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

3K9Mom - Thanks SO much for the wonderful information
I dod NOT know they need that much sleep! WOW!
My dog sleeps for maybe 8 hours...same as me!
I will deff look for that book at the bookstore tomorrow.
Like I said..I do not pay attention when he is acting up. When he ignores me I walk away and get his attention another way.
Ive had other dogs, but not with a drive this high and smart.
Thanks for all your help. I really do appericate you taking the time to help me.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

You can find it at dogwise.com or amazon.com if your bookstore doesn't have it. It's newish (published April 2009) and rather specialized so they may not stock it, although I'm sure you can have them special order it.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

That's such a good term "Playziness". Zeus does the same thing some times and that boy gets a ton of exercise. He'll just all of a sudden start running around the house at 100mph, which at almost 80lbs is like getting hit by a DT.

Right now he's at my feet having doggy dreams making hilarious noises.


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