# Muzzle training!



## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

So Finn got invited to join advance group class this past Saturday! Woohoo! The trainer said as far as obedience goes he doing really well. But he's still having a few random outbursts here and there. (Lunging barking etc) she doesn't want to put him in the reactive dog class because those dogs are too reactive, he's not that bad. Just random spouts and then he behaves. But for advanced group we will have him wear yellow (give this dog extra space) and Have him muzzled. She said she'd email me a link about it. Just so we can be extra safe just in case he does lunge he'd just muzzle punch the other dog as she said. lol until we can smooth over these little bumps in the road. Today we went out played/trained, heeled perfectly past backyard fence barkers and even a golden that lunged from across the road at him and barked, he didn't react to any of it! Stayed in heel position. But walking home in our neighborhood we passed this beagle puppy he's been reactive to. And the little beagle was running around playing on its leash and I didn't let him break heel or lunge but he still kind of barked at her like he's done before. But I quieted him quickly and just kept moving. lol he's a big goof! But he just has his moments ? Any way back to the point of this! Anyone have tips on sizing a muzzle or ones you recommend?? I always wanted to muzzle train him anyway so if anyone has any useful info it'd be much appreciated!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

This might help: Leerburg Dog Training | How to Size Your Dog's Muzzle


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A dog that needs a muzzle in the presence of other dogs should not be in a regular group class. I agree that reactive dog classes are not helpful either. You are probably better of with private training in controlled situations.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Well the thing is he does perfectly fine one on one. Engagement is on point focus and everything. Listens perfectly. It's usually at the beginning of class. If there's a rowdy dog that's already kind of barking and what not he gets a little rowdy back. Nothing like extreme that's why she's not convinced he's aggressive. And he does really well in group it's just at the beginning he gets a bit excited and loud. I'm not sure what we could work on in private lessons, as far as ignoring other dogs.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

We had done private lessons before we started group and they had given us the ok to move on to group. And we worked in control settings and he did fine


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Is it possible to have him start one-on-one and gradually add more dogs as he does well? As long as he lunges and barks, he is not able to handle the situation so you would have to make it easier for him so he can succeed. It is much easier to build on success than on correction. I hope there are other options besides one-on-one or in a group.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

get this muzzle


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Wolfy, True true. I'll bring it up with my trainer. It could just be too much for him sometimes. We'll see, it's just so weird. He'll ignore dogs generally like I said it's just a few random times here and there. And generally (but not always) the times it's happened usually it's because he saw a dog off leash running around (in neighborhood) and I think he genuinely just wanted to run and play with them but is frustrated because he's leashed and I'm not allowing him to. Or if it's a really excited or yappy dog at group. Most times I just move myself away from that person/dog and then he settles down and acts normal again? And it isn't a problem later. I've been trying to figure out what the trigger is. Whether I need to get him more worn out before class so he doesn't come in so hyper looking to play or work in smaller groups. Haha I'm trying not to worry about this too much my trainer said everything will be ok and I do trust her. I just tend to over analyze things


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I don't think I'd feel comfortable muzzling my dog for a group class. That almost seem like asking for trouble, making a dog into a victim by taking their only means of defense away. I'd rather just keep away from the rest of the group, stay at the end of the line, and keep away from any dogs that may trigger him. Sounds like the trainer may be grasping at straws because they can't figure out what the issue is or how to address it. 

If he is getting amped up on the way into class I'd arrive early or even go to the facility on a day you don't have class and work on him calmly approaching the building. If he is entering the place excited and disengaged you are going to struggle. If he can stay engaged with you from the car all the way to the building I bet you'd see a change. He can't fixate on other dogs if he is focused on you. I'd also make any yappy or crazy behavior by other dogs a cue to focus on and get a reward from you. During Finn's puppy and manners classes there were plenty of barking dogs. The minute one started going off I'd reward him. After one class he was focusing on me whenever another puppy started barking, never got involved in any of the bark parties that occured. I also rewarded when another dog passed by so rather than watch them he'd focus on me and totally ignore the other dog. Every class we've been to he gets complimented on his focus, but I have put the work into building it and still am. You have to watch him like a hawk and stop any sort of watching or staring at other dogs. Trouble almost always starts when two dog get into a staring contest, or one fixates on another. I almost always miss what my classmates are doing because I am so focused on my dog. It goes both ways so if you check out from him he will do the same.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Yes! I've noticed a difference between when I do arrive early and get him settled than the days when I can't get there early and I can tell he's a bit hyped up. And you're absolutely right, last class there were two dogs starting to bark a little at each other and I was watching and I could tell he was starting to get fixated, so I had him turn face me and sit and began rewarding him for eye contact rather than fixating on the dogs barking across the room. Same thing with the trainers dog she has this Belgian mal and Finn would get so fixated and start barking at him the first time he saw him and then I started distracting him and rewarding him for focusing on me and not him and now he doesn't care about her dog anymore like he used to. I think I'm kind of doing the right thing but not enough up keep making sure he doesn't fixate on the other dogs. Once he kind of settles down I don't have to ask him to focus on me he'll just do it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pan_GSD said:


> get this muzzle


Not a safe muzzle, just in case people view this picture a serious advice. They can't breathe or pant well and I wish people would stop selling this stupid stuff at dogs' expense.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

As far as conditioning goes. I have tried the slow and easy and came to the conclusion that its a dog. However much I may love it it is not a human. Put the muzzle on and go. 
With Shadow I found that the more I messed around the more freaked out she got. It is just like a leash and collar. If you want to leave its going on.
I started at walk time and yes she protested. Dont care. It goes on or we stay in. After just a time or two she settled.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> As far as conditioning goes. I have tried the slow and easy and came to the conclusion that its a dog. However much I may love it it is not a human. Put the muzzle on and go.
> With Shadow I found that the more I messed around the more freaked out she got. It is just like a leash and collar. If you want to leave its going on.
> I started at walk time and yes she protested. Dont care. It goes on or we stay in. After just a time or two she settled.


 Thanks! I'll keep that in mind


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> As far as conditioning goes. I have tried the slow and easy and came to the conclusion that its a dog. However much I may love it it is not a human. Put the muzzle on and go.
> With Shadow I found that the more I messed around the more freaked out she got. It is just like a leash and collar. If you want to leave its going on.
> I started at walk time and yes she protested. Dont care. It goes on or we stay in. After just a time or two she settled.


That's one way to do it. I teach them by feeding treats through the muzzle so after a few times they stick their nose freely in it and build it up from there. No struggle or correction required. Takes maybe a few days.
With the sight hounds it was easy; right before the start of the race (training) you put the muzzle on and let them go. Takes them only a few times to learn that muzzle = racing.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> That's one way to do it. I teach them by feeding treats through the muzzle so after a few times they stick their nose freely in it and build it up from there. No struggle or correction required. Takes maybe a few days.
> With the sight hounds it was easy; right before the start of the race (training) you put the muzzle on and let them go. Takes them only a few times to learn that muzzle = racing.



I've also seen people training it that way as well. I haven't gotten a confirmed email about needing the muzzle yet, think she is confused about his behavior since he's still puppy but going through adolescence(just turned 8 months) I think she believes he's getting excited and it's turning into frustration.. I'll get there early scout the place out and do a better job on my half by really focusing on him not fixating on other dogs and redirecting before he can react. I have group on Saturdays. It's at a park now not the facility anymore so we'll see how it goes.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

So I found the trigger.... 
Saturday was our first advanced group class at a park (not facility) we got there a little early played tug with him for a bit then practiced our commands. He did very well compared to the last few transitional classes. A little puppy antics in the beginning but he settled well and didn't bark or lunge at none of the dogs and we were doing things in a much closer proximity of each other. He focused when I asked him to, and my timing was much better at redirecting when I could tell he was getting a little excited. We had a few break times and we played tug and what not to get the extra energy out so he could focus better that helped, he also didn't pay mind to the other dogs either when they were also playing near us during breaktime. So when class was dismissed I was speaking with trainer about how he did and two owners stayed back to just let their dogs play a bit. And then he started to bark whine and lunge! No growling though. So trainer helped me redirect him which was hard we got him to sit and focus a few times but if you weren't on top of it he went back to trying to pull towards the dogs playing. So becuase of this she stills wants me to muzzle him for next class... (we didn't muzzle him for that day) idk thoughts? Is there anything I can do to make him learn that just because dogs are playing that doesn't mean turn into a maniac? I work obedience with him everyday outside. I actually took him back to the same park yesterday to familiarize him with the area. We played and did some obedience in between. There were a few dogs that came by I had him "place" then turn and face me and focus and he did that fine. He really didn't care for the other dogs so it wasn't like a struggle but still good practice then we resumed our games when they were gone or I played with him "on leash" while they walked by and he had no interest in them either.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Not a safe muzzle, just in case people view this picture a serious advice. They can't breathe or pant well and I wish people would stop selling this stupid stuff at dogs' expense.


So are you saying ... that thing is "REAL???" People can buy that "Duck Muzzle???" I always assumed it was a joke??? :surprise:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> So are you saying ... that thing is "REAL???" People can buy that "Duck Muzzle???" I always assumed it was a joke??? :surprise:


Never saw it in a store but there is enough stupid stuff on the market to make this a reality.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah you can actually find them on amazon...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Milliegsd said:


> So I found the trigger....
> Saturday was our first advanced group class at a park (not facility) we got there a little early played tug with him for a bit then practiced our commands. He did very well compared to the last few transitional classes. A little puppy antics in the beginning but he settled well and didn't bark or lunge at none of the dogs and we were doing things in a much closer proximity of each other. He focused when I asked him to, and my timing was much better at redirecting when I could tell he was getting a little excited. We had a few break times and we played tug and what not to get the extra energy out so he could focus better that helped, he also didn't pay mind to the other dogs either when they were also playing near us during breaktime. So when class was dismissed I was speaking with trainer about how he did and two owners stayed back to just let their dogs play a bit. And then he started to bark whine and lunge! No growling though. So trainer helped me redirect him which was hard we got him to sit and focus a few times but if you weren't on top of it he went back to trying to pull towards the dogs playing. So becuase of this she stills wants me to muzzle him for next class... (we didn't muzzle him for that day) idk thoughts? Is there anything I can do to make him learn that just because dogs are playing that doesn't mean turn into a maniac? I work obedience with him everyday outside.er safe then sorry kinda thing?? I actually took him back to the same park yesterday to familiarize him with the area. We played and did some obedience in between. There were a few dogs that came by I had him "place" then turn and face me and focus and he did that fine. He really didn't care for the other dogs so it wasn't like a struggle but still good practice then we resumed our games when they were gone or I played with him "on leash" while they walked by and he had no interest in them either.


Honestly ... as described this does not sound like a "hard core" I "need" to use a muzzle ... dog to me??? It sounds more like your trainer is "uncomfortable" with some of your dog's behaviours ... kinda like "better" safe than sorry sorta thing??

It sounds like ... one simple hard correction for "lunging" would stop it cold??? But ... whatever ... in anycase there are other things you can do to address this before class and it sounds like you are doing some of them "The Place Command" for one. I would "loose" the "Sit" for control if required and substitute a "Down Command!" 

I have often had dogs I have never work with "volunteer" a Sit as a behaviour?? I never said a word to them ... they just do it of there own accord. I have never had a dog "volunteer a "Down" as a behaviour ... got to work with more dogs I suppose?? 

Aside from a properly taught "Down" and continued work on "Place" I would add "Sit on the Dog" as an additional tool. Since your "issue" is dog related just find a "Dog Park" stay outside and "Sit" on the leash and observe. Done "properly" you will make "no demands on the dog." You just stop and sit so no, Sit or Down, commands given to the dog ... you say nothing. You just stop and Sit, the thirty minutes is the goal. And most likely the first attempt will be much shorter but after a bit the dog will "figure it out??"

And personally I'd not go into the "Dog Park" in anycase ... I use them as "Proofing Tools." We sit here for a bit and you "dog" not act like a fool and then we go somewhere else to play. I don't trust other people and there dogs ... most likely ... your trainer has some of that "behaviour" in them ... hence use a muzzle for your dog?? Just a guest there?? 

In any case more on "Place and Sit on The Dog" can be found here.:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Milliegsd said:


> Yeah you can actually find them on amazon...


LOL ... not really a surprise there ... as you can find "everything" on Amazon ... save for "Common Sense."


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> That's one way to do it. I teach them by feeding treats through the muzzle so after a few times they stick their nose freely in it and build it up from there. No struggle or correction required. Takes maybe a few days.


Thats what I tried with Shadow. It just made her more suspicious of it. 
Bud also avoided it more that way. Several of my rescues also did not take well to slow and easy. 
They learn pretty quick though that muzzle means something good coming if it goes on before walks or runs.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Milliegsd said:


> So I found the trigger....
> Saturday was our first advanced group class at a park (not facility) we got there a little early played tug with him for a bit then practiced our commands. He did very well compared to the last few transitional classes. A little puppy antics in the beginning but he settled well and didn't bark or lunge at none of the dogs and we were doing things in a much closer proximity of each other. He focused when I asked him to, and my timing was much better at redirecting when I could tell he was getting a little excited. We had a few break times and we played tug and what not to get the extra energy out so he could focus better that helped, he also didn't pay mind to the other dogs either when they were also playing near us during breaktime. So when class was dismissed I was speaking with trainer about how he did and two owners stayed back to just let their dogs play a bit. And then he started to bark whine and lunge! No growling though. So trainer helped me redirect him which was hard we got him to sit and focus a few times but if you weren't on top of it he went back to trying to pull towards the dogs playing. So becuase of this she stills wants me to muzzle him for next class... (we didn't muzzle him for that day) idk thoughts? Is there anything I can do to make him learn that just because dogs are playing that doesn't mean turn into a maniac? I work obedience with him everyday outside. I actually took him back to the same park yesterday to familiarize him with the area. We played and did some obedience in between. There were a few dogs that came by I had him "place" then turn and face me and focus and he did that fine. He really didn't care for the other dogs so it wasn't like a struggle but still good practice then we resumed our games when they were gone or I played with him "on leash" while they walked by and he had no interest in them either.


How experienced is your trainer with GSD's? Honestly what she is suggesting sounds a bit extreme for puppy antics. Sounds like he was doing well until you checked out on him, and started talking with your trainer while there were other puppies nearby who were playing. Next time if you need to talk with the trainer and there are other dogs nearby go put him in the car. I tend to run through whatever behaviors my dog knows during down times. Things like sit, down, spin, backup, nose touches, heeling, stuff that keeps them thinking. The classes I have taken do not allow tugging because it can get the dog tugging and those nearby too aroused. Personally I would not muzzle him, he didn't even do anything until class was over anyway. If needed just keep your distance from the other dogs during class. Keep rewarding him for focusing on you around other dogs. It will take time to recondition him, just stick with it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

All of this sounds more like a bored puppy who whats to play with the other puppies. Maybe a bit of the fun police syndrome. Muzzle? For what? Work on the redirecting and your attention skills.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Well I think what they're seeing is that yes he does want to play and is throwing a fit because he can't, but when he was in a state like that one of the other dogs ran up to him did a play bow got a bit too close and there was a small scuffle no biting but the other dog did not like Finns energy he was acting crazy and she was like forget him I'm going back to play with other dog she originally was playing with. He just doesn't play nicely... with my older one he does and my moms gsp he gets along with. He gets too excited and it comes off almost aggressive because he's just rude. And that's what the trainer said she doesn't believe he's aggressive just a jerk? No "dog" manners. Awhile back the trainer had set aside a play date with one of her dogs that does good with puppies. He got all excited when he saw this dog barking lunging what have you she told me to release as he was because she wanted to see if he was gonna play or come off aggressive. And he came off like a jerk, gave the dog no space invasive wouldn't let up mouthy, no biting though. We called him off he came back gave her some space when he got too invasive or came up to her too excited she corrected him and he learned and came back trying to play more gently and calmer each time. He just doesn't know how to play nicely... the trainer purely just wanted to see what exactly he would do she said next time we'd just walk them together until he calmed down then let them play or what have (you know not just let him go when he's acting crazy)

Idk to me it doesn't scream muzzle but like chip said a better safe than sorry. 
Definitely things that worked last class I'll keep up and I'll try the proofing at the dog park. 
My trainer does have working dog experience she she has a Belgian Mal, Whiskey, that she brings to class to demonstrate with or to help on some drills. This dog is in complete control very well trained off leash the whole time and has done protection work. I've talked to her out it before what all he's done. He performs flawlessly and doesn't even bat an eye at any other dogs even if theyre acting crazy. So she has to have some good experience with gsd. I've met whiskey and her small lab and both were excellent. 

I got muzzle though I'll bring to next class, I've already been working with him wearing it at home and it doesn't really phase him for now. I'll speak with her again about it next time....


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