# Working Lines - Czech vs. DDR vs. West German Working



## Mike69

I'm in the process of looking for a puppy. I had decided that I want one from working lines. I have young children, so stable temperament is of the utmost concern. I enjoy dogs that have high ball/prey/tug drive (I had a West German Showline dog a while back who could care less about any of that), but not a dog that is overly hyper and can't settle down in the house. Not looking for a Mal in a GSD body. I prefer an outgoing, confident dog who is generally friendly with people and other animals unless, and only unless, circumstances dictate otherwise. As I starting researching the breed, I then started noticing differences within the working lines - DDR,Czech, West German Working lines, and am curious as to the differences. Some breeders I'm considering include Spartanville Shepherds in Michigan (Czech/DDR), Liberatore in Maine (Czech/DDR), Van Gogh (West German Working), and Vom Rheinland (West German Working). I would appreciate any insight as how these lines differ, and what would best suit my needs. Thanks.


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## WarrantsWifey

Do you plan to work your dog or title him or are you looking for a pet quality working lines?


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## GSDElsa

I don't personally think it's always about the lines. Some way that Belgium lines are more prey monkey sport dogs aka Mals in a GSD suit, but that isn't really true depending on the dogs that are in the pedigree. Others say that DDR dogs are low prey drive, low energy, and more civil (ie not as outgoing with people) but you get plenty of people on the boards saying that isn't the case.

I think more than focusing specifically on the lines is worrying about the breeders and what they are producing. Make sure you are specific with them in telling them what you are looking for, what you absolutely don't want, and what you know FOR SURE you'll be doing with the dog.

Really, what you are describing is the general terms of what a good GSD should be. And it's a dog you can find in any of the lines. It just all depends on the dogs in the pedigree.

I just got a ~3/4 Czech, ~1/4 WGWL puppy. He's just a puppy, but some things I'm noticing. Low environmental sensitivity. High thresholds (I can run up behind him when he's chewing on a stick in the backyard and say "boo!" and grab his sides and he barely pays me any notice). VERY brave with surfaces (maybe a little too brave--it's hard to keep him out of places he shouldn't go for his own safey--he'll pounce on a baby gate until it's down to get where he wants to go). VERY friendly with people (as all puppies should be!). HIGH energy and high-ish prey, but at the same time can be put in his crate and will settle immediately with maybe just a wimper or two if he was on a rampage right before he went in there.

Some of those things vary a little bit with the lines. Obviously some people are breeding for a lower threshold, lower prey drive (or higher prey drive), etc. But most of the things in his personality are just what SHOULD make a good GSD, no matter what line you have (even showline!!  )

People I trust have a lot of experience with Vom Rheinland and everyone pretty much repeatedly says she produces stable dogs that are good for anything. Same with Van Gogh (almost got a puppy from Claudia). I have no experience with the other two.


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## carmspack

This is an area of interest for myself. I want a dog that is calm and relaxed , yet aware and watchful , when not at work. Yet, when work is required I want power and committment.
Understand the litters and pups that you are seeing . The individual, the litter, the goals that the breeder had for that litter when the sire and dam decisions were made, and the overall goals for the breeder . 
That attribute is not specific to DDR , Czech , or West German working .
A dog should be easy going and confident in public and with strangers , but that does not mean warm and fuzzy . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore

The only think I think you might have some trouble with is "friendly with strangers and other animals." I know that's not a charicteristic that the DDR dogs are known for-- quite the opposite actually. I don't know if some of the other working lines might have more of that. Kopper, my DDR pup, is already aloof around strangers at 4 months. 

If a friendly pup is important to you, make sure you communicate that to the breeder you choose.


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## vomlittlehaus

What are your plans for the puppy? Just house pet with basic obedience, or do you plan to try some sport? These are questions a breeder will ask of you to place the correct puppy with your family. Temperament and drive can vary within a litter. Not to extremes, but enough to make a difference with what pup is placed into your home.


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## Mike69

To answer some of the questions posed, I am not looking for a hard core working dog, but I appreciate that my best chance of finding a well balanced dog is in the working lines. I may dabble in schutzhund, but the dog will be foremost a family dog. However, I LOVE a dog with spunk, and high play/ball/tug drive - another reason I'm looking for a dog from working lines. Like I said, I had a West German showline dog that had little drive for the tug or ball, and was only mildly food motiviated, so training was a challenge. That was frustrating. I like a dog who is obsessed with the tug or ball, and will do whatever it takes to get it. I absolutely do not want a couch potato, but not a balls off the wall hyper dog like a dutch shepherd or mal. I've heard of breeders who breed dogs so driven that only professional handlers can deal with them, or others that breed specifically for high civil drive, which I take to mean human aggressiveness. That is not acceptable to me. A dog that is aloof or suspicious of strangers is fine, but one that wants to rip their heads off at the least provocation is not. The dog must be stable in social situations like picnics, family gatherings, little league games and public fairs ( I realize a lot of this has to do with socialization). I tend to really like the look of the DDR/Czech lines, but have heard that the DDR dogs lack drive, and Czech dogs have lower thresholds for aggression. Temperament, however, is my foremost concern. Perhaps I'm over generalizing, but I'm just trying to find some breeders with balanced dogs that are capable of both work, should I choose to pursue that, and being family companions.


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## LaRen616

Where are you located?


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## Mike69

I'm in connecticut, but would travel for the right pup. As an aside, I love the focus and drive on this dog from liberatore - 



 But wonder if he can settle when playtime is over, or if he is just "on" all the time.


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## JakodaCD OA

well I admit I know 'nada' about the west german dogs, I tend to like the east/czech dogs myself.

However, I think what your looking for can be found in ANY line of dog, it's finding a good breeder that can peg their puppies and match you with one that will fit your lifestyle/expectations.

With that said, tho Idon't know spartanville nor Liberatore personally, I like their dogs/breeding program. 

I see your in CT so am I.

I would check out Liberatore if you wanna take a trip to Maine..You might also pm debbieb here on the board, she trains with Angie, loves her dogs, loves her


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## vomlittlehaus

I sent you a PM


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## martemchik

I have the same experience as GSDElsa, 1/2 DDR 1/2 WGWL, and the dog is very ball driven, can play tug for hours, and is pretty friendly around strangers (that's going away a little as he just turned 9 months) but he can also settle down very quickly and lay on the couch next to you for hours. I've heard that in general DDR/Czech dogs have less ball drive, but plenty of people on the forum would not agree when looking at their dogs, so I really do think you have to go to the breeder and see what kind of pups they usually have or what they expect to get out of their next pairing.


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## Mike69

Thanks - just sent you a pm.


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## robinhuerta

Mike.....there are also a few good breeders of WL GSD on this forum......contact them also.
A couple others that I recommend are Kim at www.justk9s.com and Melinda at www.gildafk9s.com .
Good luck on your quest!!


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## MrsMiaW

I am not an expert, but here is my experience: My current GSD, Thor is from DDR lines. Thor definitely has great ball drive and awesome handler focus, he also loves to hike with us and is amazing with our children and other kids in our family. Thor is not an insanely high-energy dog and does have an off switch when he is in the house. At 9 months, he can be aloof with strangers, but can read the situation quite well and if I am comfortable he will allow a friendly stranger to pet him. Will he go crazy with excitement to meet someone who approaches us , definitely not, but again he will accept someone if I have deemed it ok to do so. 

Our previous GSD was WGWL and while he had drive out the wazoo, and was awesome with our kids, he was go, go, go, no matter what. No amount of physical or mental exercise seemed to tire him. He was friendly with people, but not overly so. I would say he was more outgoing with strangers than Thor is. He was also a great dog, but now seeing the difference in between these 2 dogs I would say I prefer the DDR lines (I also prefer the look, but that is not the most important thing). You can certainly take this with a grain of salt, because as many have said the lines do play a part, but each individual dog is different, even in the same litter. 

Good luck in your search. I see you are looking at breeders in the New England area. Thor came from RyanHaus in Salisbury, MA. I have nothing but great things to say about Paula and her dogs! I would recommend her highly.


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## JakodaCD OA

and also a thumbs up for ryan haus

It's a good thing Kim from Just k9's doesn't live closer to me, I would kill for one of her rookie puppies)


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## GSDElsa

I would PROBABLY say that if we're going to over-generalize the lines, that I'd shy more away from the DDR type dog. As a very loose rule of thumb, they are more civil than the other lines and do not have the same ball drive. 

Just from what you are describing, I don't have a DDR dog pictured in my mind. But I have little to no experience with them on a day to day basis. I do think that a WGWL will be your safest bet. It seems like there are a lot of breeders out there that breed DDR and Czech dogs for the novelty of it or to produce those extra sharp dogs. Not to imply that is the case with any of the DDR type breeders recommended on the forum, but it is buyer beware there.


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## cliffson1

Angie at Liberatore has some excellent dogs and is a first class trainer to boot!


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## Mike69

Thanks to everybody for your insight. Of course, any additional thoughts or opinions are appreciated.


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## robinhuerta

GSDElsa......I have a young DDR female, and she has very nice ball, play and prey drives. Not a suspicious, defensive dog at all.....just the contrary.
She is extremely good around people, places and any and all noises.
*I was actually concerned in the early beginning that she would be _enough_ for me....a *wise person (Cliff)* told me to be patient.....and he was correct....she is a very nice, sound, balanced young female.
She has a lot of energy and VERY handler motivated.....and is eager to please.
*Sharp* is not a word to describe any part of her character......nor does it describe the other 2 young DDR males we have been involved with.
I can't speak for other dogs or owners.....but mine has been positive.


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## GSDElsa

That's why I said that if you were going to _*over-generalize* _the lines, the description that OP gives--at least to me--DDR is not the first thing that comes to mind. Not that I think they are bad, or that means anything bad.


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## robinhuerta

I understood.....I was commenting on "my personal" experience with the type of dog.


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## Mike69

Robin, do you mind if I ask where you got your dog?


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## robinhuerta

I don't mind....
I bought her from Kim Haegely at www.justk9s.com .
She is a daughter of "Rookie" & Centra. The 2 young males that I have personal knowledge of are out of Rookie & Tika.
All 3 dogs are very nicely balanced. Prey, play & defense drives.
I think my female has the most *play drive* ie (ball, tug, toy) out of the 3.
Izzy's nerves are excellent....and she can flip on and off in drive.


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## JakodaCD OA

Mike, I know your from CT, if you find any specific breeders around here in mind, shoot me a pm I'd be glad to offer you any insite I have on them if I know,,,there are definately some around these parts that I would steer clear of


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## Mike69

Thanks, Diane. I just shot you a PM.


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