# All Pure genes GSD should be allowed in the Show Rings



## GSD information

I think the solid colors - White and black should be allowed in the breed show. Why should they stay away when they are pure genes? What do you say?


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## smerry

Black is allowed


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## onyx'girl

Why is this topic in this forum?


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## smerry

I hadnt even noticed ... why is it in this forum???


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## LaRen616

I agree. All colors


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## ChristenHolden

Yes all should be aloud even the ther soild colors like the red and golden colors you see ocasonnly


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## Andaka

ChristenHolden said:


> Yes all should be aloud even the ther soild colors like the red and golden colors you see ocasonnly


No, they shouldn't. There is a reason for a standard -- it is like the blueprint for a building, it shows you how the dog is supposed to look. Color is also important. White has not ever been a preferred color for GSD's even if one of the original dogs was white. The white color is not acceptable for showing anywhere in the world. Liver and blue are also not acceptable colors.


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## Jessiewessie99

I think they should.


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## APBTLove

I want to know why, other than "It's the standard!" color is important. I understand some breeds should be a certain color for their line of work, and some colors, like Merle and such that can cause health problems is bred incorrectly should be disqualified.

I think dogs need to stop being judged so hard on looks, and more on healthy, performance, and then looks. In that order.

Liver GSDs ARE German Shepherd dogs. Blue GSD's ARE German Shepherd Dogs.

We accept black but not white.

Why?

Why some colors but not others? And no answering "Because the standard calls for it!" lol
Who actually knows the reasons certain shades of color on a GSD's coat disqualifies it for showing, even if it's proven it's a better worker than any B&T GSD?


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## Jessiewessie99

APBTLove said:


> I want to know why, other than "It's the standard!" color is important. I understand some breeds should be a certain color for their line of work, and some colors, like Merle and such that can cause health problems is bred incorrectly should be disqualified.
> 
> I think dogs need to stop being judged so hard on looks, and more on healthy, performance, and then looks. In that order.
> 
> Liver GSDs ARE German Shepherd dogs. Blue GSD's ARE German Shepherd Dogs.
> 
> We accept black but not white.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Why some colors but not others? And no answering "Because the standard calls for it!" lol
> Who actually knows the reasons certain shades of color on a GSD's coat disqualifies it for showing, even if it's proven it's a better worker than any B&T GSD?


Seems more like colorism or dogism(doggie racism.lol)


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## Chris Wild

Well, I guess if people don't care about any sort of standard for a breed than it doesn't matter. Though without them, we wouldn't have any breeds at all. I do have to ask the question though, if the standard doesn't matter, I assume that means people don't care if their GSD looks or acts even remotely like one? Or is it a case of we can pick and choose to ignore some parts of it because we find them silly or inconvenient? If the later, what parts are ok to ignore? The popular ones are always coat and color and size. But what about ears? How would people feel about floppy ears being accepted because some otherwise nice dogs have them? Maybe we should bring back curly, woolly coats too, since some dogs early on had that coat type.

No one knows exactly why certain colors were undesireable, since no where in the historical writings of the breed is it specified. Though no doubt part was simple personal preference on the part of those writing it. Neat thing when you create a breed is you get to take ownership of the rules that govern it whether you have a scientific reason for it or not and that means if you don't like a color you have every right to make unacceptable.

However it is highly suspected that a lot of the thinking behind disqualifying certain colors was a misunderstanding of genetics 100+ years ago. White may have been viewed as a indicator of albinism, and it's known health problems. There are many breeds where white, even non albino white, are genetically linked to health problems. And while we now know there are no health issues associated with the white masking gene in the GSD, back then they didn't. They knew sometimes white was linked to health problems and had no understanding of genes to know if the white GSD gene was any different, so for safety's sake let's not have whites. White was also frowned upon for a variety of reasons related to work. Not that the dogs couldn't work, but that the color itself was considered by many to be impractical and inconvenient compared to darker colors. So another reason to dislike white dogs. 

Liver and blue themselves as colors are not disqualified. It is the fact that these dogs do not have black leather (nose, eye rims, etc...) The standard calls for black leather, and with blues and livers the same genes that dilute the black hair pigment to blue/liver also dilute the black skin pigment. So their leather is not black. As far as why the standard calls for black leather, and thus precludes blues and livers, part is probably because this exposed leather (particularly on the nose) is more prone to sunburn. Many whites also exhibit pigment problems on their nose, with the nose being pink or splotchy rather than black. While sunburned noses may seem like a silly reason today, it may not have to people back in the day whose dogs were outside working 24/7. Also again, much is probably a misunderstanding of genetics. Blue and liver in the GSD are not linked to health problems, but they are in many other breeds. The Doberman being one of those where dilute colors often bring about a host of skin problems. And of course, this is a breed and situation that the Germans writing the GSD standard would have been very familiar with. Not realizing that what is genetically linked to health issues in one breed may not be the case in another, and wanting to err on the side of caution, they may have disallowed dilutes for that reason.

As far as Fawn or Red or whatever people want to call them, there really is no such thing. They aren't actual colors. They are either black/tan or sable dogs who are severely lacking black pigment expression. They aren't disqualified at all, though they certainly would be faulted because that pesky standard calls for rich colors and markings and they don't have them. They wouldn't do well in a show, just like a black/cream or black/silver (both showing pigment paling of the tan which is also disfavored) wouldn't do well because of the desire for strong colors. But nothing would prohibit them from showing.


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## Chris Wild

As far as black, it is and always has been allowed. There is no moritoriam on "solid colors".


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## codmaster

APBTLove said:


> I want to know why, other than "It's the standard!" color is important.
> Liver GSDs ARE German Shepherd dogs. Blue GSD's ARE German Shepherd Dogs.
> We accept black but not white.
> 
> Why?


Because as sheep herders it was hard to distinguish them from the sheep!

AND also they would be hard to see in a snow covered field!


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## Samba

I thought at one point the SV, very early on, registered white dogs. I heard they were rejected in the 30s or 40s perhaps. America did not remove them until the 60s? It could be wrong though.


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## Chris Wild

codmaster said:


> Because as sheep herders it was hard to distinguish them from the sheep!
> 
> AND also they would be hard to see in a snow covered field!


No. Neither of these is a reason white was disfavored, though the whole can't tell them from the sheep thing seems to be a myth that will never go away.

White is harder to camouflage. White dogs are more easily spotted (and thus easily shot) in most any situation except snow covered environment. Also, white is generally not as scary looking as a darker dog, taking away from the intimidation factor which is very important for a dog doing police, military, security or guard work.


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## Lin

I've read that one of the reasons solid whites were disqualified was the incorrect assumption that allowing solid whites into a breeding program increased white spotting on marked dogs.


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## codmaster

LaRen616 said:


> I agree. All colors


And to heck with the standard, right? How do you feel about floppy ears?

And while we are at it - how about shy/fearful dogs? And dogs that bite the judge?

And dogs that limp?


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> No. Neither of these is a reason white was disfavored, though the whole can't tell them from the sheep thing seems to be a myth that will never go away.
> 
> White is harder to camouflage. White dogs are more easily spotted (and thus easily shot) in most any situation except snow covered environment. Also, white is generally not as scary looking as a darker dog, taking away from the intimidation factor which is very important for a dog doing police, military, security or guard work.


Although your reasons are no doubt more accurate, I liked my reasons better! Heh! Heh!


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## LaRen616

I believe I already said that floppy ears would drastically change the look of the breed. You drive me insane:hammer:


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## cherry

LOL codmaster!!! i say equal rights for all colours  we should do an ALI G dog advet saying "is it coz i is white" 
there is a big difference in a dog being white and having floppy ears and being fearfull!! what about the akita? by right they should not have a black mask!! so they made the american akita which can have a black mask, so they do change the standards when its suits!!


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## sagelfn

i'm confused are we saying that all pure GSDs should be allowed to show or that white gsds should be allowed to show? those are two very different things


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## codmaster

LaRen616 said:


> I believe I already said that floppy ears would drastically change the look of the breed. You drive me insane:hammer:


 
Short trip!

BTW, doesn't white drastically change the appearance also?

or maybe we should only allow the deviations from the standard that you like?


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## LaRen616

All I believe


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## LaRen616

Codmaster, Codemaster, whatever, I do not have a standard. *I like ALL GSD'S BIG AND SMALL, BLACK, WHITE, BLUE, LIVER, SABLE, PANDA, 3 legs, 4 legs, one eye, 2 eyes, short coat, plush coat, long coat, deaf and blind.* You only like your standard!

 No, white would not drastically change the look of the GSD.


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## LaRen616

White GSD's would the same body and the same facial profile as a black/tan GSD they would just be white


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## sagelfn

LaRen616 said:


> Codmaster, Codemaster, whatever, I do not have a standard. *I like ALL GSD'S BIG AND SMALL, BLACK, WHITE, BLUE, LIVER, SABLE, PANDA, 3 legs, 4 legs, one eye, 2 eyes, short coat, plush coat, long coat, deaf and blind.* You only like your standard!
> 
> No, white would not drastically change the look of the GSD.


there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with liking/loving a GSD with any of the above qualities..the issue is breeding and the purpose of the dog. That is the purpose of the standard. As you have most likely read on here hundreds of times only quality/proven GSDs should be bred. How ticked would you be if you bought a puppy only to find out it came from blind parents, or if you were getting a puppy for K9 training and breeders had discarded the standard and now dogs were no longer capable of performing the duties they were bred for. OMG if GSDs have a bad rep now imagine if weak nerved 120lb GSDs were becoming the norm.


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## onyx'girl

It seems to me, more and more that are posting on this board are going to bring it to that point as they do not get there is a standard and it should be adhered to to preserve the GSD. They will support those whose programs are not breeding to better the breed, but breeding to their own "standard"


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## Samba

Were whites always disqualified? The standard regarding them has changed over time?

What has been the standard regarding coats? In the US it is not a disqualification but is a fault. 

Will the SV standard regarding coats change in 2010? I heard something about that somewhere.


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## Jessiewessie99

I have seen pure-bred GSDs who look exactly like other GSDs but are white.

I am telling you its doggie racism!OK not really racism but you know what I mean.lol


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## Mrs.K

> No one knows exactly why certain colors were undesireable, since no where in the historical writings of the breed is it specified. Though no doubt part was simple personal preference on the part of those writing it. Neat thing when you create a breed is you get to take ownership of the rules that govern it whether you have a scientific reason for it or not and that means if you don't like a color you have every right to make unacceptable.


There actually is a legend on why the white Shepherd isn't accepted and it has to do with Hitler.

They couldn't use the white German Shepherds as war dogs because they didn't blend in and therefor of no use. That is why (so the legend says) they sent them off to Canada.

That's what I was told but nobody knows if it is true.


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## GSDElsa

I still do not understand the people saying that floppy ears change the appearance more than a WHITE dog? Small little ears verses a completely WHITE dog? Huh?

Bottom line is--get a white GSD if you want one. No one is saying they should be culled. But the breed standard is the breed standard and some possible reasons why they were "banned" in the show ring as GSDs have been presented. WGSD's can show as separate breed, no? So you still have the opportunity to present your dog if you so desire.


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## Samba

A long time ago a German fellow named Baron von Krigge had some white shepherd dogs. Grief was the name of one. If the pictures of him are truly him, then I find him to be a good looking dog. He had up, prick ears which evidently wasn't very common in the herding dogs of the day. 
Grief was bred to a sable, Lotta. A female from this was bred to Kastor giving Horand. Horand became the first German Shepherd. So his grandfather was a white dog. The first white German Shepherd was registered by the SV in 1913. Their exclusion was not enforced until 1933. 

So, they were once in and then they were out. Things change. Who knows, they might be back in one day. 

The coated German Shepherds were in the SV standard and then out. Now again, they are being given some consideration.

The standard is not static, it appears. It seems its okay for people to desire a change in the standard. It does happen when the parent club makes a revision. I would not start holding my breath on this one though.


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## codmaster

LaRen616 said:


> Codmaster, Codemaster, whatever, I do not have a standard. *I like ALL GSD'S BIG AND SMALL, BLACK, WHITE, BLUE, LIVER, SABLE, PANDA, 3 legs, 4 legs, one eye, 2 eyes, short coat, plush coat, long coat, deaf and blind.* You only like your standard!
> 
> No, white would not drastically change the look of the GSD.


You think a white GSD and a standard B&T look alike then?

BTW, I do not have a personal standard! "your standard?"

The purpose of any of the different standards is to develop a way for someone obtaining a GSD (or any other pure bred dog for that matter) to have a pretty good idea of what they should be able to expect when the puppy grows up. Obviously there will be considerable differences among individuals but there will be a pretty good idea of what the adult will be like (if the breeder is doing their best to adhere to the accepted standard!).

Sounds like maybe you would like a MUCH wider range of possibilities, right?

How do you feel about the temperament part of say the USA standard - do you like it or do you want to alter that also?

Oh, please do not presume to guess what I like or don't like. I may like a real long coated individual dog, however that does not change the fact that the LC is frowned upon by the US standard.

If you don't like the standard (any of them), then you should work to convince others of your preferences and get the standard(s) changed so that the breeders can work toward the revised standard.


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## codmaster

sagelfn said:


> there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with liking/loving a GSD with any of the above qualities..the issue is breeding and the purpose of the dog. That is the purpose of the standard. As you have most likely read on here hundreds of times only quality/proven GSDs should be bred. How ticked would you be if you bought a puppy only to find out it came from blind parents, or if you were getting a puppy for K9 training and breeders had discarded the standard and now dogs were no longer capable of performing the duties they were bred for. OMG if GSDs have a bad rep now imagine if weak nerved 120lb GSDs were becoming the norm.


Well said!


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## KITTIEG

I think they should be allowed as in other breeds that come in other colors. Some breeds compete as certain coat types, colors & sizes. IMHO the WGSD should be judged for the physcial healthy traits, a dog that isn't physcially perfect, & have "that look" wouldn't win, color shouldn't matter.
I suspect the desire to compete in national dog shows is one reason some WGSD breeders are wanting to change the name to WSD & be a recongnized as a new & separate breed. 
BTW, I read somewhere, the WGSD were actually prefered in some herding areas as they could be distinguished easier from the grey wolf & wouldn't accidently shoot their own dog. 
.


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## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted by sagelfn
> there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with liking/loving a GSD with any of the above qualities..the issue is breeding and the purpose of the dog. That is the purpose of the standard. As you have most likely read on here hundreds of times only quality/proven GSDs should be bred. How ticked would you be if you bought a puppy only to find out it came from blind parents, or if you were getting a puppy for K9 training and breeders had discarded the standard and now dogs were no longer capable of performing the duties they were bred for. OMG if GSDs have a bad rep now imagine if weak nerved 120lb GSDs were becoming the norm.





> Well said!


Ditto that!!!


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## RubyTuesday

I'd like to see the standard return to accepting whites & LC. I hate seeing WGS become a separate breed. It's just a shame to further shrink the gene pool for any group of GS, IMO. 

FTR, I prefer LC sables, yet mine are both B&T stock coats. I'm unlikely to go for a white, black or dilute unless there's something else to the pup I absolutely love. *shrug*That could happen...I passed on a truly gorgeous LC on the breeder's advice. I'm not indifferent to coat & color but it's not terribly important to me.


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## AgileGSD

APBTLove said:


> Who actually knows the reasons certain shades of color on a GSD's coat disqualifies it for showing, even if it's proven it's a better worker than any B&T GSD?


 Dilutes and dogs with poor pigment were avoided and warned against throughout the history of many breeds. Dogs who lacked pigment were believed to be more likely to be sickly than dogs with normal dark pigment. While this would seem to be just another old wives tale, research into vaccinations has recently shown that dogs with dilute coloring are at higher risk for reactions. This would signify that the immune system of dogs with a lack of pigment may function differently.

Health issues associated with lack of pigment is not limited to just dogs. Dilute colors in ferrets tend to have more reproductive issues, smaller litters and higher risk of disease. A mutated strain of Parvo which mustelids is called Aleutian Disease, named after the dilute colored strain of mink which were the first animals susceptible to the virus. Breeding, skin and immunity issues are also reported in mice, rats and other rodents. The effects of such things are easier to see on these animals because so many generations can be observed in a relatively short time. 

Also historically, dilute colors in some breeds also suffer dilute alopecia and white coloration is sometimes linked to certain genetic health issues. While these may not apply to GSDs, it could have been another reason that convinced early breeders that such colors were undesirable and not in the best interest of the breed. 

I don't think that including all colors duringt he creation of the breed means that those colors were intended to be part of the breed. Those dogs may have possessed other very desirable traits which were not easily found in other accessible dogs. Color is fairly easy to breed away from, so likely in the creation of the breed it was a secondary consideration until the breed was closer to what Von Stephanitz's ideal was. 

FWIW I have heard many experienced herding people say that sheep, in general tend to respond differently to light colored dogs than dark ones. I believe the white color has pretty well been bred out of German lines and American showlines (someone can correct me if I am wrong on that) and at this point it would be extremely unlikely to find any lines of WGSD who were as good or better workers than the average German working lines. The modern well bred WGSD have been selected mostly for show and companions and the pet bred lines are extremely unlikely to have been selected for working ability.

The dilute coloration still pops up in all lines but why change the standard to allow a color that is not historically correct for the breed and may result in dogs more at risk for certain health issues?


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## Samba

I have read that some in the early SV wanted to exclude white. I don't know if it was for well founded reasons, best understanding at the time, prejudice, or what the exact factors were. I did read that the breed founder was not that concerned with color either way and did not object to the desire by the parent club to remove it from the standard.


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## arycrest

codmaster said:


> ...
> BTW, doesn't white drastically change the appearance also?
> ...


*I don't think it does ... people know what a German Shepherd Dog looks like. There are some who only recognize those that are black/tan as being GSDs, others, don't recognize the long hairs as being GSDs, others don't recognize sables, etc. The same is true with the WGSD, many people recognize them as GSDs, some don't. So the answer to your question is NO, the color white does not drastically change the appearance any more than other colors.* 



Samba said:


> Were whites always disqualified? The standard regarding them has changed over time?
> ...


*The standard has changed. The color white was allowed in the AKC show ring until it was changed to a DQ in the AKC breed standard in the early 60's. The Canadian Kennel Club allowed the white color until the mid/late-90's. I've read that the color white became a DQ in Germany sometime in the early 30's but don't know if this is true or not.*



GSDElsa said:


> ... WGSD's can show as separate breed, no?


*No! Not in the United States (AKC) or Canada (CKC). The so called White Shepherd can be registered and shown with UKC as can GSDs with white coats can be registered and shown as German Shepherd Dogs. It's my understanding that the White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (Berger Blanc Suisse) which has nothing but German Shepherd Dogs in their background can show with FCI**.*



codmaster said:


> You think a white GSD and a standard B&T look alike then?
> ...


*Yes, just the same as a B/T, black, sables, etc look alike except for color and perhaps coat type!*


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## LaRen616

*Arycest*


Thank you! That was what I was trying to say


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## arycrest

AgileGSD said:


> Dilutes and dogs with poor pigment were avoided and warned against throughout the history of many breeds.
> ...
> The dilute coloration still pops up in all lines but why change the standard to allow a color that is not historically correct for the breed and may result in dogs more at risk for certain health issues?


Bear in mind that the dilute gene is completely separate from the white masking gene that makes a WGSD white - any color can carry it, it's not just a white thing.

Please explain what health issues would be introduced by allowing the white coated GSD to show in AKC sanctioned shows? As far as I know the WGSD has no more, nor any less, health issues than their colored brothers and sisters who haven't seen a white masking gene in generations.


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## codmaster

arycrest said:


> *I don't think it does ... people know what a German Shepherd Dog looks like. *
> 
> *Yes, just the same as a B/T, black, sables, etc look alike except for color and perhaps coat type!*


So you don't think that a white GSD is different looking than a black and tan? Seriously? 

Each of the colors you listed does actually change the appearance of the dog.

Note I didn't say that any color is any better than any other color or coat length for that matter, just that it certainly does change their appearance.


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## codmaster

arycrest said:


> Bear in mind that the dilute gene is completely separate from the white masking gene that makes a WGSD white - any color can carry it, it's not just a white thing.
> 
> Please explain what health issues would be introduced by allowing the white coated GSD to show in AKC sanctioned shows? As far as I know the WGSD has no more, nor any less, health issues than their colored brothers and sisters who haven't seen a white masking gene in generations.


Have you seen the conformation of most white GSD's?


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## Jessiewessie99

arycrest said:


> Bear in mind that the dilute gene is completely separate from the white masking gene that makes a WGSD white - any color can carry it, it's not just a white thing.
> 
> Please explain what health issues would be introduced by allowing the white coated GSD to show in AKC sanctioned shows? As far as I know the WGSD has no more, nor any less, health issues than their colored brothers and sisters who haven't seen a white masking gene in generations.



I heard that too that White German Shepherds are DQ or not qualified because of health reasons and I see no health reasons in WGSDs.They are just as healthy.I agree with you on that point about WGSDs and health reasons.


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## onyx'girl

At the 2009 UKC Premier the white GSD's seemed to be over the standard heightwise. But that was a small sampling...


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## Jessiewessie99

And I don't think that WGSDs look different from a B&T.I saw someone walking both a WGSD and B&T GSD both looked exactly the same.Thats like saying Black GSDs look different from the B&T.I was walking my Black GSD and across the street someone was walking their WGSD and our dogs looked exactly alike, it was like looking in the mirror, except one was white the other was black.

Quite hating on the color, seriously it sounds like racism, but doggism.sheesh.


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## onyx'girl

too late to edit, but this shows the pics of a few that participated over the past couple years, though they do not call them _German_ shepherds: 
United White Shepherd Club - Our dogs do stuff!


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## arycrest

codmaster said:


> Have you seen the conformation of most white GSD's?


Most ... no, of course not. A lot ... yes, I've seen a lot - hundreds over the years.


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## arycrest

codmaster said:


> So you don't think that a white GSD is different looking than a black and tan? Seriously?
> 
> Each of the colors you listed does actually change the appearance of the dog.
> 
> Note I didn't say that any color is any better than any other color or coat length for that matter, just that it certainly does change their appearance.


The color doesn't change the appearace that much - the dogs are still recognizable as GSDs to the average person whatever the color.


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## robinhuerta

"We don't need no stinkin standard!"......"Standard what???"....certainly not for size, temperament & form......breed em' all! I say!!
Make sure you take the topics off about breeder references also, and the rescues, health topics, advice topics..etc...etc......after all, *WHY* _would it matter_ *WHO* breeds?....if it _doesn't matter_ *WHAT* they breed...?!


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## AgileGSD

arycrest said:


> Bear in mind that the dilute gene is completely separate from the white masking gene that makes a WGSD white - any color can carry it, it's not just a white thing.
> 
> Please explain what health issues would be introduced by allowing the white coated GSD to show in AKC sanctioned shows? As far as I know the WGSD has no more, nor any less, health issues than their colored brothers and sisters who haven't seen a white masking gene in generations.


 Obviously, the white and dilute genes are not the same. However, many of the white GSDs do lack pigment - some end up with light pigment on their noses and some around their eyes. It is harder to select for pure white coats and strong pigmentation. For example at any given show, you will see a good number of Samoyeds in the grooming area having a product applied to their nose to make it black. 

One of _original _reasons for white being a DQ was likely because it was observed in other breeds to be associated with deafness or other issues. While time has shown that is not the case with GSDs, it would make sense for the breeders back then to be cautious about allowing white. And also white is not a traditionally desirable color for herding breeds.


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## Jessiewessie99

AgileGSD said:


> Obviously, the white and dilute genes are not the same. However, many of the white GSDs do lack pigment - some end up with light pigment on their noses and some around their eyes. It is harder to select for pure white coats and strong pigmentation. For example at any given show, you will see a good number of Samoyeds in the grooming area having a product applied to their nose to make it black.
> 
> One of _original _reasons for white being a DQ was likely because it was observed in other breeds to be associated with deafness or other issues. While time has shown that is not the case with GSDs, it would make sense for the breeders back then to be cautious about allowing white. And also white is not a traditionally desirable color for herding breeds.



yea it is.they use it to distract wolves from eating their sheep.


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## Jessiewessie99

I heard that the WGSDs were considered American Shepherds or were made in Ameriaca, not German Shepherds, because the "real" German Shepherds weren't and cannot be white.

Thats what I heard, Idk if its true or not.


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## arycrest

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I heard that the WGSDs were considered American Shepherds or were made in Ameriaca, not German Shepherds, because the "real" German Shepherds weren't and cannot be white.
> 
> Thats what I heard, Idk if its true or not.


No, it's not true. The WGSDs came from the same lines as all the GSDs. But the Germans have probably bred the white masking gene out of their lines over the years.


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## AgileGSD

robinhuerta said:


> "We don't need no stinkin standard!"......"Standard what???"....certainly not for size, temperament & form......breed em' all! I say!!
> Make sure you take the topics off about breeder references also, and the rescues, health topics, advice topics..etc...etc......after all, *WHY* _would it matter_ *WHO* breeds?....if it _doesn't matter_ *WHAT* they breed...?!


 Regardless of the standard people are free to breed whatever they personally want to breed. And without a doubt they do.

Regardless of what the standard says, people can find breeders of really big GSDs, somewhat big GSDs, fluffy GSDs, chocolate GSDs, blue GSDs, white GSDs, blonde GSDs, black GSDs, red GSDs, silver GSDs, B&T GSDs, B&R GSDs, bi-color GSDs, sable GSDs, working GSDs, show GSDs, pet GSDs, trademarked RinTinTin GSDs, "guaranteed" GSDs, crazy high drive GSDs, docile GSDs, balanced GSDs or many combinations of these things.


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## robinhuerta

Breed on! Welcome all!.....I've come to learn to agree with the best of em"....breed away!


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## Samba

They can certainly all breed whatever they like. Have their own "standard". Create their own vision. Ride on the coat tails of better breeding using the good name of the breed too! 

I am not buying it though. Not philosophically, not intellectually and certainly not monetarily.


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## AgileGSD

Samba said:


> They can certainly all breed whatever they like. Have their own "standard". Create their own vision. Ride on the coat tails of better breeding using the good name of the breed too!
> 
> I am not buying it though. Not philosophically, not intellectually and certainly not monetarily.


No one has to. But it also may not be such a bad thing. As I recently mentioned in other threads, so many "types" within the breed is not a bad thing as far as diversity is concerned. At this point if a major bottleneck or widespread health issue (as in a health issue in which all dogs were affected or carrying it) occured in one segment of the GSD population, it would likely not affect the breed as a whole and would allow multiple easy options for outcrossing and still maintaining registerable dogs, often from known and health tested lines. Along the same lines, it would be a shame for the segments to branch off into separate breeds. Such a move would seem to be bad for the genetic diversity of both - removing a percentage of the GSD population from the gene pool and the "new breed" which would have a small, limited gene pool. Once a breed is separated breeds, the chance for outcrossing between the two is generally lost for good if one wants to maintain registerable dogs.


----------



## Samba

Yes, they would have to open the stud books then. It has been done in some breeds.

I do understand the idea of some genetic isolation in the hopes of eventual preservation though.

I wonder why the JRTCA does not see the wisdom of this? They keep tight control on breeding to the standard. Their dogs are not registrable as the breed until at least year a year old and subsequently passing basic standard criteria? I actually kind of like their idea. The puppy is not registrable as the breed by birthright but rather by birthright and standard criteria.


----------



## AgileGSD

Just an illustration of the pigment issue with wGSD. These dogs are all show quality wGSDs and you cans see that even they have a loss of pigment on the nose (not to say they are not beautiful dogs, there are some really striking wGSD out there!):


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## Samba

Those are some lovely dogs. There is a picture of the dog Greif, predecessor of Horand v Grafath, that, though sitting down, looks like a really nice dog of substance and nobility. A proud dog in the early contributors to the eventual breed.

I have to kind of wonder about the idea of a standard with this breed any more. The dogs traditionally considered to be "bred to the standard" have such amazingly different and extreme types within them that I am not sure anyone is in much in touch with a "standard" standard any more, anyway.


----------



## GSDElsa

Our of curiosity, does breeding a white to say, a black and tan or sable, wash out the pigment in the offsprings coat and cause problems with the leather like seen on the dogs above?


----------



## AgileGSD

GSDElsa said:


> Our of curiosity, does breeding a white to say, a black and tan or sable, wash out the pigment in the offsprings coat and cause problems with the leather like seen on the dogs above?


 That is a good question and I honestly don't know the answer. It could also be the other way around - breeding wGSDs to "regular" GSDs could result in loss of pigmentation in the "regular" colored puppies.

My feeling is that it is difficult to get strong pigment in dogs with a solid or light cream white coat. Most start off with full pigment as youngsters but it fades as they get older, which I think is likely the case with the above dogs. The wGSD standard per the wGSD club of America, allows a dog with poor pigment to compete in conformation. In the wGSD standard only having a totally pink nose would be a DQ (although some of the dogs I posted are close to that and still being shown) but the AKC GSD standard DQs any color other than black:

"*NOSE*: Total Black is preferred. But brown or pink streaked is acceptable. Color of nose may change with estrus, cold weather and age. Disqualification: A nose totally lacking in any pigment." White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || Breed Standard

_"Nose_ black. A dog with a nose that is not predominantly black must be *disqualified*." German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club

My guess is that they tolerate the improper pigment in the wGSDs because it is hard to avoid it. Many wGSDs would be DQ in the AKC conformation ring based on the nose color issue, even if the white color was allowed. The standard would have to also be changed to permit poor pigmentation in certain colors. Which as I said earlier, actually may cause changes in the immune system. 

Interestingly, the UKC standard does not make the exception for nose color on wGSD but wGSD lacking pigment are still shown and still win in the UKC ring. Is the standard ignored or are the wGSD's noses black when they are in the ring? Sort of brings up another issue altogether...

"NOSE -- The nose is always black. 

_Disqualification: _Nose not predominantly black." United Kennel Club: German Shepherd Dog


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## arycrest

I'll be honest, I can't tell from the pictures you posted about the nose color on those dogs except for the bottom one *BUT* my screen isn't that great so that could be the problem???


----------



## arycrest

GSDElsa said:


> Our of curiosity, does breeding a white to say, a black and tan or sable, wash out the pigment in the offsprings coat and cause problems with the leather like seen on the dogs above?


It would depend if they carried the plaing gene or not. Here's a link to a picture of a GSD who has a white sire and colored dam so you can see the combination doesn't necessarily have to produce the washed out look:
Canine Review Magazine - Am. Can. Ch. Eclipse's Bittersweet Solitude


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## Andaka

arycrest said:


> I'll be honest, I can't tell from the pictures you posted about the nose color on those dogs except for the bottom one *BUT* my screen isn't that great so that could be the problem???


It must be your screen, because I can see the pink on the nose very clearly.

I think that Sandhill has done some white to colored breedings.


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## Samba

I thought these ideas on coloring genetics were interesting..

White German Shepherd Dog


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## arycrest

Andaka said:


> It must be your screen, because I can see the pink on the nose very clearly.
> 
> I think that Sandhill has done some white to colored breedings.


Thanks - this screen sucks - I can't size it properly to this old laptop computer I'm using and it's very grainy.

You're right, I'd forgotten about Brad's dogs. 
Sandhill Shepherds


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## Melly

Well the Akc recognizes the color so Im not sure if I disagree they should be shown or not. I personally do not think the whites look as much like GSD as other colors (PERSONAL OPINION) lol. But then again I have my liver boy who some would say doesn't look like a GSD either its all a matter of opinion. But there are breed standards for a reason. Even if we do not agree with them they are there and that's what makes the GSD a GSD. And even though a white is recognized doesn't mean its the ideal color, and if allowed in the show ring would give people the assumption it is.


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## arycrest

I'm curious. Maybe I'm missing something reading the breed standard, but it looks to me like the tri/color GSD (so called Panda) doesn't have a DQ fault as far as color is concerned. Has anyone ever seen one in the AKC or CKC show ring?
"*Color* 
The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are _serious faults._ A white dog must be _disqualified._"
"*Disqualifications*
_Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs. 
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge. _"
German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club


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## AgileGSD

arycrest said:


> I'm curious. Maybe I'm missing something reading the breed standard, but it looks to me like the tri/color GSD (so called Panda) doesn't have a DQ fault as far as color is concerned. Has anyone ever seen one in the AKC or CKC show ring?


 Very interesting, I think you are right though in that they'd not be a DQ. From a breif search though, it looks like the people involved with Pandas are opting to promote them as a separate breed and are showing in rare breed shows (seems a bit short sighted to me...):
Phenom Shepherds - Johnnie

Phenom Shepherds - Bree

Phenom Shepherds - Jayne


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## Rei

AgileGSD said:


> Just an illustration of the pigment issue with wGSD. These dogs are all show quality wGSDs and you cans see that even they have a loss of pigment on the nose (not to say they are not beautiful dogs, there are some really striking wGSD out there!):


Atlas :wub:

But yes, I've also noticed the same, in regards to white German Shepherds lacking pigment. Not that there aren't quite a few wGSDs I can name with lovely pigment, but it seems to be a common trait compared to the colored GSDs. 

But Tracie, who owns Atlas, has bred him to many colored German Shepherds, and while he's produced a few German Shepherds also lacking in pigment, he's also sired many who have wonderful pigment. I'm sure when Tracie breeds him, she takes those faults into consideration and plans out each breeding accordingly. Atlas's breeder, Donna of Eclipse Kennels, also owns and breeds a number of colored German Shepherds, including black/tans, bi-colors, sables, and solid blacks. 



arycrest said:


> It would depend if they carried the plaing gene or not. Here's a link to a picture of a GSD who has a white sire and colored dam so you can see the combination doesn't necessarily have to produce the washed out look:
> Canine Review Magazine - Am. Can. Ch. Eclipse's Bittersweet Solitude


Soli is a great example of a lovely black/tan bitch sired by Atlas.

A colored picture of her









I'm assuming the lack of pigment on many of the GSDs shown under the UKC is partially disregarded in favor of more "important" conformational traits?


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## AgileGSD

Rei said:


> I'm assuming the lack of pigment on many of the GSDs shown under the UKC is partially disregarded in favor of more "important" conformational traits?


 That would be understandable if it was a minor or even a serious fault. It is a disqualifying fault though, which not only means that the dog shouldn't be awarded points but that the dog should be excused from the ring. In AKC if the dog is excused from the ring three times for a disqualifying fault, their registration is actually suspended. Not sure if UKC does something similar with dogs shown with DQ faults but when you registered with UKC their application asks if the dog has any DQ faults. My understanding is that UKC will not give full registration to any dog with a DQ fault. Even beyond all that though, disregarding a DQ fault in the conformation ring sort of defeats the purpose of having a standard to compare dogs to.


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## arycrest

AgileGSD said:


> ... Not sure if UKC does something similar with dogs shown with DQ faults but when you registered with UKC their application asks if the dog has any DQ faults. My understanding is that UKC will not give full registration to any dog with a DQ fault. Even beyond all that though, disregarding a DQ fault in the conformation ring sort of defeats the purpose of having a standard to compare dogs to.


This is interesting. 

The UKC breed standard for the GSD and the White Shepherd are different so I guess it would depend which breed a dog is registered as.

BUT in one place in the GSD Breed Standard it says that a nose not predominantly black is a DQ but then under DQ's it doesn't even mention nose color - doesn't make sense:

The breed standard for the GSD says,
"NOSE -- The nose is always black. 
_Disqualification: _Nose not predominantly black. "
"*Disqualifications 
*Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Undershot. Wry mouth. Cropped ears. Drop or tipped ears. Docked tail. Albinism."
United Kennel Club: German Shepherd Dog

The UKC breed standard for the White Shepherd says, 
"NOSE - The nose is always black. A "snow nose" is acceptable but not preferred.
_Disqualification: _Total lack of nose pigment."
"*COLOR
*Ideal coat color is a pure white. Colors ranging from a very light cream to a light biscuit tan are acceptable but not preferred. Skin color is pink to gray, with gray preferred. Nose, lips, eye rims, and pads are fully pigmented and black in color. In judging the White Shepherd, temperament, overall quality and movement are considered more important than coat color alone.
_Faults: _Faded or spotty pigmentation.
_Disqualifications: _Any color other than those listed above; albinism." 
"*DISQUALIFICATIONS
*Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Undershot. Wry mouth. Blue or pink eyes. Cropped ears. Drop or tipped ears. Docked tail. Total lack of pigment on the nose, eye rims, lips, or pads. Any color other than those listed above. Albinism."
United Kennel Club: White Shepherd (Revised October 1, 2008)


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## RubyTuesday

The WGS I've seen often had pinkish back noses or blackish pink noses rather than bright pink noses. EXACTLY how they'd be judged I dunno...faulty? DQ??? Esthetically there's a significant difference, IMO. I love deep black noses & (blush)hate true pink noses(no offense intended). I feel middlin about the midway noses. (Cochise, my Sibe, had a blackish/pink stripe on his very black nose which was more prevalent in the colder months. It annoyed me but certainly never impacted how much I loved him. Nor was I moved to *shudder* color it in)


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## ChancetheGSD

Here is my opinion...

If you want to truely get down to what a German Shepherd should or should not be, it is not an arguement of color. It is that the majority of the people breeding them have failed them in worse ways than what their color is. They have removed the working dog from being just that. I bet Max Von Stephanitz would have a cow if he could only see what has become of the breed today. I seriously doubt had they had the knowlegde of genetics andmedical research back then as we do today that they would still have certain colors disqualified so long as the dog could do it's job and do it well.

...Though just to get into the color debate, Im a liver fan.


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## Jessiewessie99

I said before I will say it again, Its Doggism.lol


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## Melina

This is pertinent to the WGSD's, not Blues/Livers etc. I didn't go through all 8 pages, so if this link was already posted, my apologies:

White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd

It talks about some things mentioned as far as Nazi's/Hitler finding WGSD's to be undesirable and believing them to dilute the darker coats of other GSD's (Sorry, nothing about them not being fit for war due to their color), belief that they contributed to diseases, albinism, gene pools, blah blah...


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## mjbgsd

> If you want to truely get down to what a German Shepherd should or should not be, it is not an arguement of color. It is that the majority of the people breeding them have failed them in worse ways than what their color is. *They have removed the working dog from being just that.* I bet Max Von Stephanitz would have a cow if he could only see what has become of the breed today. I seriously doubt had they had the knowlegde of genetics andmedical research back then as we do today that they would still have certain colors disqualified so long as the dog could do it's job and do it well.


Amen. The German Shepherd is first and foremost a working dog.  Color second.

Personally, I don't like white, liver, or blue GSDs. If you,(you as in general) like that color, that's great but I don't. 
I prefer blk/tans and dark sables.


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## wolfstraum

Every breed has a standard. The ideal of the breed. Period. Labs, Collies, Dobies, poodle, Vizslas - there is a standard to strive to meet. If you want a white dog to show - there are breeds which are white, and accept whites. German Shepherds do not. Is it fair? Maybe not - it just IS. Do you want to see flop eared GSDs in the show ring too??? Same thing - standard says erect ears. Does not make the flop earred dog any less deserving of a good home or love or change his temperament. Just he is not show quality. Does not meet the standard. It is not "racism" - there have to be arbitary guidelines to everything - laws too...is it fair to have a 65 speed limit on a highway through the desert where 'everyone goes 90'??? Get caught, get a ticket - were you endangering anyone? no - but it is a standard set that you need to obey or be penalized. Same thing with color - you can have the whites, even - in AKC - breed them....you just cannot show them in any FCI or SV organization that follows the standard (not going to debate teh AKC vs SV here LOL) If you really want to play in the show ring, go UKC - think they have a class for whites.

Lee Hough


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## tkarsjens

Rei said:


> But Tracie, who owns Atlas, has bred him to many colored German Shepherds, and while he's produced a few German Shepherds also lacking in pigment, he's also sired many who have wonderful pigment. I'm sure when Tracie breeds him, she takes those faults into consideration and plans out each breeding accordingly.


Atlas doesn't have the best nose color in the world for sure. His paw pads, lips and eye rims are black but his nose isn't always. He has always gotten lighter in the winter and it gets worse as he gets older. 

You're right, this is something I take into consideration in breedings, although it's not something I consider nearly as important as health, structure and temperament.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## RubyTuesday

Tracie, you have some lovely dogs. I applaud your decision to remain WGS rather than becoming a separate breed. IMO, DQ them was a huge mistake. I hope that will eventually be rectified. *shrug*On the upside, being excluded from most show rings has probably helped WGS maintain a more moderate, sensible conformation & to put greater emphasis on health & temperament.



> Originally Posted by sagelfn
> OMG if GSDs have a bad rep now imagine if weak nerved 120lb GSDs were becoming the norm.


Exactly how is the breed better served by weak nerved, fearful 70lb GSDs being the norm? Arbitrarily linking size to nerve strength is both inaccurate & prejudicial.


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## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> .....Exactly how is the breed better served by weak nerved, fearful 70lb GSDs being the norm?


Any breeder worth their salt and concerned about their breed will do their best to support and breed to that standard. if anyone doesn't like the standard for their breed, they have two choices - work to change it OR move to another breed!

The US GSD standard says 24-26" males and 22-24' bitches. If you don't like it with maybe a little variation, then get out of the breed.

OR stay in the GSD, admit you don't care about the standard and try and breed non standard dogs (i.e. whites perhaps and/or GIANT GSD's.

just my 2 cents worth.


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## unloader

Taken from wgsdca.org

"The Nazis, including Hitler, saw the white coat as an undesirable trait, and further assumed that the white coated dogs' genes paled the darker coated dogs' colors. With little knowledge of science, they blamed the whites for many diseases as well. Germany soon barred white German Shepherds from the conformation ring and the breeding pool. The United States followed suit in the late fifties, early sixties. (The exact date is unknown due to lack of finding correct historical documents) While Shepherd enthusiasts in the USA wanted to remove them also from the breeding pool, the AKC refused to withhold them from registration. Hence, the color white is in the top number of colors of GSD�s registered with the AKC today! "

Can anyone validate this as being true? I read the entire thread and didn't see mention of this. 

To me it sounds as if WGSDs were the minority just like the Jewish people and any other minority in that era. Of course Jewish people and White shepherds don't have any health issues for being a minority.


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## codmaster

unloader said:


> Taken from wgsdca.org
> 
> "The Nazis, including Hitler, saw the white coat as an undesirable trait, and further assumed that the white coated dogs' genes paled the darker coated dogs' colors. With little knowledge of science, they blamed the whites for many diseases as well. Germany soon barred white German Shepherds from the conformation ring and the breeding pool. The United States followed suit in the late fifties, early sixties. (The exact date is unknown due to lack of finding correct historical documents) While Shepherd enthusiasts in the USA wanted to remove them also from the breeding pool, the AKC refused to withhold them from registration. Hence, the color white is in the top number of colors of GSD�s registered with the AKC today! "
> 
> Can anyone validate this as being true? I read the entire thread and didn't see mention of this.
> 
> To me it sounds as if WGSDs were the minority just like the Jewish people and any other minority in that era. Of course Jewish people and White shepherds don't have any health issues for being a minority.


Are you trying to say that the nazis are responsible for making white GSD's a DQ fault? Never heard that one before.


----------



## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> Exactly how is the breed better served by weak nerved, fearful 70lb GSDs being the norm? Arbitrarily linking size to nerve strength is both inaccurate & prejudicial.


At least then one aspect of the dog is within the GSD standard.

Maybe you can explain how the GSD breed is served at all by deliberately breeding way oversize dogs?


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## unloader

codmaster said:


> Are you trying to say that the nazis are responsible for making white GSD's a DQ fault? Never heard that one before.


Well, I'm not saying that, but the WGSDCA is saying that. I am just interpreting. I also want to know if anyone verify the validity of this. To me, it is fairly believable since the nazis did a lot of crazy stuff, I wouldn't put this past them. 

You can read the full history here: White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


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## codmaster

I don't think thay would have influenced the USA GSD standard though.


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## Jessiewessie99

I think the Germans or somewhere in Europe they were saying that White GSDs were Americanized, and blamed America fro ruining the standard and making White GSDs.Thats something I heard.

IDK if its true or not.


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## RubyTuesday

> Originally Posted by *RubyTuesday*
> _Exactly how is the breed better served by weak nerved, fearful 70lb GSDs being the norm? Arbitrarily linking size to nerve strength is both inaccurate & prejudicial._
> 
> Originally Posted by *codmaster*
> _At least then one aspect of the dog is within the GSD standard.
> 
> Maybe you can explain how the GSD breed is served at all by deliberately breeding way oversize dogs?_


*shrug*IF I have to stick with 'one aspect' I prefer solid nerves in an over sized package to a standard sized nerve bag. YMMV.

However, arbitrarily linking size to character is inaccurate regardless of whether one supports or opposes a particular size. My opinions on size aren't a state secret. IF you seriously want to rehash arguments about size, perhaps you'd like to post your questions & concerns to a thread where that's the topic of discussion.


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## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> *shrug*IF I have to stick with 'one aspect' I prefer solid nerves in an over sized package to a standard sized nerve bag. YMMV.
> 
> *In my mind, a responsible breeder who has the breed in mind, doesn't stick with or breed for any one aspect of the GSD but instead attempts to breed the "perfect" dog by keeping mind ALL aspects of the standard.*
> 
> However, arbitrarily linking size to character is inaccurate regardless of whether one supports or opposes a particular size.
> *I never tried to do this - only said that oversize dogs are outside of the breed standard and should be avoided. There are plenty of 30" dogs if someone likes Giant breeds. The GSD is a large but not giant dog according to their standard. Each GSD person either supports the standard or they don't. It is not something that one should be able to pick and choose which part of the standard one will support. If you don't like the standard then work to change it - it is possible to modify the standard.*
> 
> *The work that the GSD is suited for would be much more difficult for a Giant non-standard GSD!*
> 
> My opinions on size aren't a state secret. IF you seriously want to rehash arguments about size, perhaps you'd like to post your questions & concerns to a thread where that's the topic of discussion.


*There can be no relevant arguments about size - my positionis simple. breeders can certainly breed any dog they like and try to attain their own goals (A free country in the USA) but any one who truly cares about the breed will do their darndest to adhere as close as possible to the approved standard. One simple reason for this is to insure that one gets the benefit of buying a purebred dog - we have a pretty good idea of what to expect bothin temperament and size, etc.*


----------



## arycrest

unloader said:


> Taken from wgsdca.org
> 
> "The Nazis, including Hitler, saw the white coat as an undesirable trait, and further assumed that the white coated dogs' genes paled the darker coated dogs' colors. With little knowledge of science, they blamed the whites for many diseases as well. Germany soon barred white German Shepherds from the conformation ring and the breeding pool. The United States followed suit in the late fifties, early sixties. (The exact date is unknown due to lack of finding correct historical documents) While Shepherd enthusiasts in the USA wanted to remove them also from the breeding pool, the AKC refused to withhold them from registration. Hence, the color white is in the top number of colors of GSD�s registered with the AKC today! "
> 
> Can anyone validate this as being true? I read the entire thread and didn't see mention of this.
> 
> To me it sounds as if WGSDs were the minority just like the Jewish people and any other minority in that era. Of course Jewish people and White shepherds don't have any health issues for being a minority.


*Over the years I've seen this claim but have never found out if it's true or not or where the initial information origninated. 

THIS IS JUST MY THEORY - NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON BUT ... Somewhere I read that the color white was declared to be a serious problem in the breed in Germany in the 30's, around the same time von Stephanitz* *lost control of the SV, and Hitler came to power - maybe that's how the Nazi/Hitler/WGSD connection was made???? I can see the part about equating the color white with serious health issues being true since this myth about the WGSD coat color was still popular well into the 70's, maybe even later. Same with the paling gene ... not sure when it was discovered to be completely separate from the WGSD's white masking gene.*




Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think the Germans or somewhere in Europe they were saying that White GSDs were Americanized, and blamed America fro ruining the standard and making White GSDs.Thats something I heard.
> 
> IDK if its true or not.


*Maybe I'm not understanding your comment, but the color white has been a part of the GSD breed since its inception in Germany. *


----------



## Jessiewessie99

arycrest said:


> *Over the years I've seen this claim but have never found out if it's true or not or where the initial information origninated.
> 
> THIS IS JUST MY THEORY - NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON BUT ... Somewhere I read that the color white was declared to be a serious problem in the breed in Germany in the 30's, around the same time von Stephanitz* *lost control of the SV, and Hitler came to power - maybe that's how the Nazi/Hitler/WGSD connection was made???? I can see the part about equating the color white with serious health issues being true since this myth about the WGSD coat color was still popular well into the 70's, maybe even later. Same with the paling gene ... not sure when it was discovered to be completely separate from the WGSD's white masking gene.*
> 
> 
> *Maybe I'm not understanding your comment, but the color white has been a part of the GSD breed since its inception in Germany. *


There were rumors saying the WGSDs were American Shepherds, they weren't "true" German Shepherds.I don't believe it.I heard this.


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## arycrest

Oh, OK, I understand now, thanks for explaining. I've heard them called "Canadian Shepherds" too. But never heard the rumor/claim they weren't "real" GSDs. But like you say, they're nothing but GSDs with white coats.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Codmaster, your position is as simple as mine, although opposed as to conclusions. Your arguments are augmented by one current standard while mine are supported by the _original_ GSD standard & judging. IF you care to rehash size arguments that's more appropriately pursued in threads devoted to that topic. 

Fortunately (or not) the arguments are equally applicable to white GS (WGS). The much vaunted standard permitted WGS for many years, (along with long stock coated GS). It then arbitrarily deemed them a DQ at precisely the time a white (or LSC) was less of an impediment to many GS, including working GS. Following that, some years later, long stock coats are once more accepted (yippee). 

Perhaps breeders need to stay abreast of these dizzying changes. Fortunately, I'm not a breeder. Nor will I be, so curse me for a renegade, but I'll persist in acquiring those GS best suited to me, my family & community. I'm not enamored of the WGS, nor do I favor the dilutes or the Pandas, but their color/pattern is largely irrelevant in *my* assesment of what I need & expect from my GSD. IMO, the GS standard screwed up in excluding them. Fortunately (or not), I'm not bound to let any registry pre-empt my judgment of what I need & expect in my GS.

Since I don't show, don't breed & don't aspire to, people can certainly try to badger & bully me into submission as to what an exemplary GS is. Or not. Seems to be not. With very, very few exceptions I prefer my judgment compared to what is 'locally' available.


----------



## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> Codmaster, your position is as simple as mine, although opposed as to conclusions. Your arguments are augmented by one current standard while mine are supported by the _original_ GSD standard & judging.
> 
> *Are you saying the sizes in the USA standard have changed? When were they changed? I was not aware that the 22-24" and 24-26" size standards had been changed in the USA standard. What were they before the change, in the original standard?*
> 
> IF you care to rehash size arguments that's more appropriately pursued in threads devoted to that topic.
> 
> Fortunately (or not) the arguments are equally applicable to white GS (WGS). The much vaunted standard permitted WGS for many years, (along with long stock coated GS). It then arbitrarily deemed them a DQ at precisely the time a white (or LSC) was less of an impediment to many GS, including working GS. Following that, some years later, long stock coats are once more accepted (yippee).
> *Long hairs always have been accepted and showable - just that it is a fault in the show ring! Actually white GSD's are also "accepted" in performance events and always have been, just not in the AKC breed ring.*
> 
> Perhaps breeders need to stay abreast of these dizzying changes. *"dizzying ?"*
> 
> Fortunately, I'm not a breeder. Nor will I be, so curse me for a renegade, but I'll persist in acquiring those GS best suited to me, my family & community. I'm not enamored of the WGS, nor do I favor the dilutes or the Pandas, but their color/pattern is largely irrelevant in *my* assesment of what I need & expect from my GSD. IMO, the GS standard screwed up in excluding them. Fortunately (or not), I'm not bound to let any registry pre-empt my judgment of what I need & expect in my GS.
> 
> Since I don't show, don't breed & don't aspire to, people can certainly try to badger & bully me into submission as to what an exemplary GS is. Or not. Seems to be not. With very, very few exceptions I prefer my judgment compared to what is 'locally' available.


As long as you are happy with your dogs, that is what is important no matter how they may compare to the standard. 

If your adult male dog only weighed 25 lbs (due to its breeder wanting a "miniature GSD"); as long as you are happy with him, that is fine. 

I was thinking of the breed in general, not any individual dog!


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## Jessiewessie99

I want to show Tanner, but he is neutered and inst registered yet. But even if he was registered he is neutered so I can't show him. =(


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## Gsdldy

The UKC has conformation classes for altered dogs (neutered/spayed dogs) UKC Message Boards - Altered Classes


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