# Weaning off of food??



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Alright everyone, 

So my girl schatzi is now about 16 weeks. I know this is still young, but where exactly should we be as far as training. She knows sitz, plotz, foos and we’re working on stand and the turns to go with foos. However, all of these positions are lured with food. For example, if o don’t immediately reward her for a plotz, she kind of works her way back into sitz. Of course, still not great around distractions. We do most of our training in my backyard. Also, a trainer I go to once/week has horses around. I still tend to be able to grab her attention with the horses next door. Where should we be at this point? When do I begin weaning off of food? Am I’ve expecting too much too soon? Responding to just commands is certainly not working quite yet. I don’t want harsh corrections at this point as I want her to enjoy training and work. She loves her bite pillow, sees it as a big game. Ball drive is adequate, but we’re still working on improving it with the flirt pole and a 2 ball game. Any tips/recommendations on the pups? Like I said, I know it is early but I’m interested in hearing all of your opinions/ideas. I know there are some very experienced people on this forum. I’d like her to get BH before her 2nd birthday. I feel we are off to a good start, but I don’t want to take any wrong turns. We work twice a day. Once in the am and once in pm. Innbetween, my girlfriend does a lot of flirt pole work with her to help with ball drive. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance. Here’s a pic of my girl! Great pedigree. I hope she can live up to it.










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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Go to Leerburg.com. Tons of free info. I think Ed Frawley recently did a free video on this. And Micheal Ellis's DVD on training with food is worth the $$.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mine is a year. I still use food. Why would you take away the rewards? If you went to work and got paid every friday and then one day your boss decided you had been paid enough, would you go back?

It's not about taking away the food/reward. It's about changing the lure into a reward for making the right decision. If you've done Sit 100 times with a lure, then you add the word Sit so she makes the connection. Then start fading out the lure. But you never get rid of the reward. The only day I lie to my dogs is trial day.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Mine is a year. I still use food. Why would you take away the rewards? If you went to work and got paid every friday and then one day your boss decided you had been paid enough, would you go back?
> 
> It's not about taking away the food/reward. It's about changing the lure into a reward for making the right decision. If you've done Sit 100 times with a lure, then you add the word Sit so she makes the connection. Then start fading out the lure. But you never get rid of the reward. The only day I lie to my dogs is trial day.




This is more of what I meant... I don’t really mean eliminate but is it too soon for her to be making the connection. She seems to do it
With sit, but not down, heel, etc. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

However you are luring, make the movements smaller and smaller until she does it on her own. If you are bringing your hand over her head for a Sit, start bringing it half way and help her as needed. 

My steps are 
1. lure with food (no command)
2. Once she is doing the motion then I add the word.
3. once she knows the word, I fade out the lure. 
4. help as needed with a lure to make her successful.

Right now I'm fading out the lure for a down in motion. First I brought my hand all the way down as we moved. then part way down. Now my hand is almost out of the picture but I'm still using my body slightly. Small steps to match what the dog needs.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> However you are luring, make the movements smaller and smaller until she does it on her own. If you are bringing your hand over her head for a Sit, start bringing it half way and help her as needed.
> 
> My steps are
> 1. lure with food (no command)
> ...




Thanks so much. I will try to start doing this in the morning when I work with her


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I use food for the first 6-week puppy class, and then I don't use food anymore. I use it kind of like "loading the clicker." Only my clicker is praise. I get good results just using my voice. 

If the puppy knows the difference between Good Girl, and Eh-Eh! training is pretty easy. Praise and pets are always available, free, and your dog will not look at you as a cheap dirtbag. 

Of course, I will give my dog food and treats for nothing whatsoever. If I think they might like this, I will walk over and give it to them.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

What’s people’s opinions on leerburg? Thought about buying Ed Fawley’s 8 weeks-12months puppy series 


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Nscullin said:


> What’s people’s opinions on leerburg? Thought about buying Ed Fawley’s 8 weeks-12months puppy series
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bought the puppy DVD years ago. There was some good info but much if it was stuff I had already learned here and a few other sources. I don't know if they've updated it in the past 5 years.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Mine is a year. I still use food. Why would you take away the rewards? If you went to work and got paid every friday and then one day your boss decided you had been paid enough, would you go back?
> 
> It's not about taking away the food/reward. It's about changing the lure into a reward for making the right decision. If you've done Sit 100 times with a lure, then you add the word Sit so she makes the connection. Then start fading out the lure. But you never get rid of the reward. The only day I lie to my dogs is trial day.


I still use food as a reward but intermittently. I also move it away from where we are working, so it becomes the "cookie jar" on the shelf. If I have the treat in my hand my dogs focus on the treat instead of my body posture, physical signals and voice. If I put the treats on the shelf they then listen more to me. That is why markers are important, the clicker or marking word. Those words and clicks signal that they did the right thing and a reward will be coming soon, a.k.a. I'm going to go over to the treats on the shelf. 

When working outside with a toy, I can lure their attention by putting the toy where I want them to look. Eventually I put the toy behind my back. They can't hold position and see the toy so they check my face....perfect! But they know it is there and if they hear the marker word, they know I'll offer it to them soon afterwards.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

car2ner said:


> I still use food as a reward but intermittently. I also move it away from where we are working, so it becomes the "cookie jar" on the shelf. If I have the treat in my hand my dogs focus on the treat instead of my body posture, physical signals and voice. If I put the treats on the shelf they then listen more to me. That is why markers are important, the clicker or marking word. Those words and clicks signal that they did the right thing and a reward will be coming soon, a.k.a. I'm going to go over to the treats on the shelf.
> 
> When working outside with a toy, I can lure their attention by putting the toy where I want them to look. Eventually I put the toy behind my back. They can't hold position and see the toy so they check my face....perfect! But they know it is there and if they hear the marker word, they know I'll offer it to them soon afterwards.



Then I think the issue is in your proofing or what you are asking of them. I should be able to hold the ball in front of my dogs face, and I do, and still have their focus. I've moved my hands off to the side for the recall, she knows the food is in my hand but she still has to finish in front correctly to get the reward. The only path to the reward is thru doing the command I ask them to do correctly.

This is where balanced training is important. Black and white. Yes! reward. No! Either help them or correct them (either by withholding the reward or by physically correcting). And it's also why I don't like extended use of clickers and rewards without any kind of consequence.


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