# Salmonella/Other Bacteria and Humans



## Collette17n (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi everyone! I'm new here... Hopefully getting our pup at the end of January. The breeder we are talking to is weaning the puppies onto a raw diet and after reading about it we would like to continue that. I thought my question would be quite common, but I searched and couldn't find it... So maybe I'm just being a freak.... 

My question is this - after my dog eats and he goes sniffing around, licking the floor, people's hands, faces, etc, don't I need I worry about the people getting salmonella??? Or the house being covered in it??? 

It's not really feasible to follow him around sprung everything he touches and making sure he leant give visitors kisses... Is this not s problem? 

Please ease my mind about this and also help me explain to visitors why they don't need to worry.... 

Thank you!!!


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Dogs mouths are cleaner then ours - there shouldn't be a concern as dogs saliva is designed to start to neutralize bacteria - plus a raw diet, munching bones will clean the teeth - kibble gets mushy and gets stuck in the teeth and gums allowing for bacteria to proliferate - so you have more of a chance of getting bacteria kisses from a kibble dog - not to mention gum disease (doggie that is) and harmful drugs to have him put under to have cleaned - and the oh so unwelcome dog breath.

My dog gets a bit of saliva on his chin or side of mouth, I just wipe off with my hand and wash off.

Clean up area he eats w/ a 50/50 vinegar/water solution


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Dogs mouths are cleaner then ours


Myth.

Immunocompromised people are advised to not feed raw, and if you have a therapy dog that visits nursing homes, kids' classrooms or hospitals, etc. you are not able to feed raw.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Myth.
> 
> Immunocompromised people are advised to not feed raw,* and if you have a therapy dog that visits nursing homes, kids' classrooms or hospitals, etc. you are not able to feed raw*.


IYO...

How would they know

You have more of a chance of contacting staph from a bag of kibble - hence the endless recalls


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> IYO...
> 
> How would they know
> 
> You have more of a chance of contacting staph from a bag of kibble - hence the endless recalls


Yeah, really! And it is not the visitors' concern what the dog eats.

If this were a problem, vast numbers of raw feeders would be dropping dead of salmonella. Ridiculous.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Yeah, really! And it is not the visitors' concern what the dog eats.
> 
> If this were a problem, vast numbers of raw feeders would be dropping dead of salmonella. Ridiculous.


err...oops, I said staph, was reading an article on colostrum...
meant salmonella:blush:

AND all teh dogs that would be dropping dead from raw


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

...staph?? In dog food?? 

Um. Okay.

But yes it's true about therapy dogs. If you want to visit immunocompromised patients receiving Chemo while your dog could possibly give them a life-threatening bacterial illness I guess that's your business - but part of the requirements are that you feed kibble and not raw. 

FAQ about Therapy Dog Training

There's risks to every way of feeding, please do present all sides, including that yes, getting a bacterial infection from feeding raw is a risk, how big of one, that's up to you and how you clean/disinfect but it's there all the same.

http://www.petpartners.org/rawdiet


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Collette17n said:


> My question is this - after my dog eats and he goes sniffing around, licking the floor, people's hands, faces, etc, don't I need I worry about the people getting salmonella??? Or the house being covered in it???


No.  I've fed raw for a few years now and never had a problem. Follow the same hygiene you would when you handle meat. Wash their dishes often.

I do think it is not accurate to say a dog's mouth is cleaner than ours. I know we've heard it our whole lives but I think it's an old wives tale.

The salmonella factors in when they poop. They may shed more bacteria but not necessarily. It is true that SOME, NOT ALL, therapy dog organizations will not allow you to feed raw and be registered with them. I read the study they presented. It was one sided and did not take into account contaminated kibble.

here's a good article
Are Raw-Fed Dogs a Risk? - Whole Dog Journal Article

Interesting tidbit at the end of the article...how many dogs were infected by people in the nursing homes and then transferred the bacteria such as MRSA to another room or building.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

@msvette...you must have been busy while I made the correction

albiet (re: staph)...not far off, given the amount of dogs with itchyskinitis do to the overabundant use of carbohydrates, artificial/synthetic ingredients, lack of natural enzymes and amino acids as well as the toxic rendered fats once exposed to air start to oxidize - proven to cause cancer...toxic load, malnutrition, leaky gut - all leads to staph...

so yeah "staph" infection in a bag


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saliva contains two types of components that inhibit bacterial
growth. The first type is thiocyanate ions, which can kill bacteria,
especially once the ions get inside the bacteria. The second component,
lysozyme, is an enzyme with three main properties: it digests
food particles, thus removing nutrients for bacteria. It can directly
attack bacteria, either killing them or limiting their growth. Finally,
lysozyme aids thiocyanate ions in entering bacteria.​​​​1 The adage​
about saliva's healing properties is indeed correct.

From Don Hamilton's DVM book - but cannot find his ref for his book - I could look up in my copy...but, not a debate....just some info that explains saliva function in dogs


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Another rabbit trail but...if that's all true, then people should be healed the moment they get bitten by a dog! 
Oddly they always need antibiotics :shrug: 

Woman Loses Hands, Feet From Bacterial Infection Caused By Dog’s Saliva CBS Atlanta

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2012/09/05/woman-with-flesh-eating-illness-dies/


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Question though...was it a kibble fed dog??? 

speculated that it came from the dog, and maybe the dog was immuno compromised and not able to fend off the bateria it was carrying.

So many things to factor - loose article

and humans don't always "need" abx. that is the gross over abuse of abx. Now cats - that is a diff. story...you have a 7-11 or 18% chance of getting a bacterial infection from a dog - Cats - 60-80%


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's a bacteria commonly found in dog's mouths...because they are not "cleaner than ours".


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Collette17n said:


> My question is this - after my dog eats and he goes sniffing around, licking the floor, people's hands, faces, etc, don't I need I worry about the people getting salmonella??? Or the house being covered in it???


I've been feeding raw to my dogs for over 15 years now. In that time my dogs have consumed close to 20 THOUSAND POUNDS of raw meat (and some of that meat was NOT fit for human consumption).

I wash my hands after I'm finished handling the meat (but sometimes forget WHILE I'm handling the meat and touch my mouth or other things). I rarely wash the dogs bowls - maybe once every other month. Each dog licks their bowl clean then go around and lick everyone else bowls clean. That's 7 rounds of licking per bowl - I'd say it's clean enough. 

I don't bother cleaning up the floor unless I SEE food or juice. Again - 7 dogs cleaning up after each other. 

The ONLY time I did not handle the dogs food was when I was going through chemo. Then my husband did all the feeding. I still let the dogs lick me and such.

I have never been sick from the dogs eating raw. My husband has never been sick from the dogs eating raw. The DOGS have never been sick from eating raw. 

I say don't worry, follow normal raw-meat-handling protocols and don't bother telling your visitors what the dogs eat.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

salmonella is overrated. i don't feed raw but i do
give my dog raw chicken backs, fresh femur bones
and a 4oz raw beef pattie with his food sometimes.
i haven't had any problems with tainted food.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> Immunocompromised people are advised to not feed raw, and if you have a therapy dog that visits nursing homes, kids' classrooms or hospitals, etc. you are not able to feed raw.


Some Therapy Dog certification organizations tell you not to feed raw. Some do not care.


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Here are some links on bacteria found in raw meat and arguments against raw feeding if you're interested. 

Study: Drug-Resistant Bacteria in U.S. Meat

Science-Based Medicine Raw Meat and Bone Diets for Dogs: It?s Enough to Make You BARF

PetDiets

http://www.csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/Articlespdf/Problems with Raw Meat.pdf

One of my concerns with people feeding a home prepared diet is that it is balanced. Monica Segal has some good books/booklets on the subject: K9Kitchen: The Truth Behind The Hype

Good luck 

Michaela


----------



## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Been supplementing with raw foods, including raw eggs, for 12 years now. I've never encountered salmonella or e-coli, and neither have my dogs. I've not taken extra precautions, just use common sense


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Salmonella is common in the environment - it is in the soil and spores are in the air - as part of the natural balance of bacteria that cover the earth.

Normal feeding and handling of raw meat is not a risk above and beyond the salmonella one gets in contact with when handling and preparing food for human consumption. People who over-do the sanitizing in their home because of concern of 'bad' bacteria, also disrupt the balance of good bacteria that helps keep salmonella and other pathogens in check. 

Someone recently started a thread here, asking if anyone here has ever gotten sick from feeding raw, and I don't think that there was one single person who has.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Heidigsd said:


> Here are some links on bacteria found in raw meat and arguments against raw feeding if you're interested.
> 
> Study: Drug-Resistant Bacteria in U.S. Meat


That article refers to _Staphylococccus aureus:_



> Researchers testing raw turkey, pork, beef, and chicken purchased at grocery stores in five different cities across the U.S. say that roughly one in four of those samples tested positive for a multidrug antibiotic-resistant “superbug” bacterium.
> 
> 
> “The findings were pretty shocking,” says study researcher Lance B. Price, PhD, director of the Center of Food Microbiology and Environmental Health at the Translational Genomics Research Institute in Flagstaff, Ariz. “We found that 47% of the samples were contaminated with _Staph aureus_, and more than half of those strains were multidrug resistant, or resistant to three or more antibiotics.”



Sounds scary, doesn't it? Until you learn _more about Staphylococccus aureus ... (from What is Staphylococcus Aureus?)_


I colored the parts that are really important.




> * Staphylococcaceae Family*
> 
> _Staphylococcus aureus_ belongs to the family _Staphylococcaceae._ It affects all known mammalian species, including humans. Further due to its ability to affect a wide range of species, _S. aureus_ can be readily transmitted from one species to another. This includes transmission between humans and animals.
> * Transmission of Staphylococcus aureus*
> ...





So, what that means is that the people in that article found something that's pretty much everywhere anyways and that if you are a healthy person you don't have to worry about it.


I call that fear mongering and it really annoys me.


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> I call that fear mongering and it really annoys me.


You know what really annoys me Lauri? Is the one-sided anecdotal advise about raw feeding that has been given on this board for many years by people that have absolutely no background/training in veterinary medicine or nutrition. As soon as someone posts something that is not pro raw feeding it gets dismissed.

*Collette17n* can make up her own mind I am sure with information that represents both sides 

Michaela


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Heidigsd said:


> You know what really annoys me Lauri? Is the one-sided anecdotal advise about raw feeding that has been given on this board for many years by people that have absolutely no background/training in veterinary medicine or nutrition. As soon as someone posts something that is not pro raw feeding it gets dismissed.
> 
> *Collette17n* can make up her own mind I am sure with information that represents both sides
> 
> Michaela


This.
Raw is not the be-all and end-all of feeding. I've seen too many complaints about bad breath, dry coats and dandruff, allergies and rashes, broken teeth and blockages to believe it is.
People need balanced info and raw/vaccine issues are never balanced and always involve hype and hysteria.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What did domestic dogs eat before the invention of kibble? Table scraps~ old food that was probably a bit on the green side and I wonder if the life span was longer because they had strong immune systems. 
I've fed raw for almost 7 yrs and knock on wood, my dogs have only had two experiences of gastro illness. Both times it was in November(different years different dogs) and I can't blame the diet on their sickness.
If you feed a balanced diet and take care of cleaning up after you feed, there is no difference in making a meal for humans using meat or feeding our dogs raw meat.
I've never had bad breath, dry coat, or rash, broken teeth. Allergies, yes, but this is one of the reasons I went with raw, so I could be sure exactly what my dog was ingesting. She ended up being allergic to dust mites and grasses, with a bit of sensitivity to chicken and fish.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Heidigsd said:


> You know what really annoys me Lauri? Is the one-sided anecdotal advise ...


I wouldn't call over a decade of experience feeding raw to over 20 dogs (including old, young, healthy, seriously unhealthy and 7 dogs weaned directly to raw and never tasting kibble) 'anecdotal'.

I do not consider raw to be the 'end-all, be-all' or the only way to feed. I personally think it's the best way to feed but I don't push it on people.

When people ask about raw I give them my personal experiences.

If raw meat were SO dangerous why aren't there more illness/death among butchers, meat packers, slaughter house workers and so on? Those people handle a TON more raw meat than we ever will.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Salmonella bacteria is found in many different foods. Here's a list from the CDC of recent salmonella outbreaks. You will notice the most recent one was linked to peanut butter and two others were linked to fruit. You will also notice dog kibble on the list. In the dog kibble case, humans who handled the infected kibble were getting sick. 

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/outbreaks.html


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

And just so people know there's a risk with kibble as well ...

CDC - Information for Pet Owners - Multistate Outbreak of Salmonella Infantis Infections


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> And just so people know there's a risk with kibble as well ...
> 
> CDC - Information for Pet Owners - Multistate Outbreak of Salmonella Infantis Infections


Beat you to it, Lauri. Read my post above yours.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

BowWowMeow said:


> Beat you to it, Lauri. Read my post above yours.


Ya got me. 

I let my dogs lick me on (and sometimes IN) my mouth after they eat.

I sure don't do that after they've licked their rear ends! Or the cats' rears.


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> And just so people know there's a risk with kibble as well ...
> 
> CDC - Information for Pet Owners - Multistate Outbreak of Salmonella Infantis Infections


I think people are aware of this, it's not a big secret. 

The problem with the anectodal advise that is given here is that it is very one-sided and any risk a raw meat diet poses is quickly dismissed. Just because people repeat something over and over doesn't make it true. 

There is lots of information from reputable sources advising against feeding raw but it's never presented. People can make up their own minds about how/what to feed their dogs and the risk they are willing to take but should have both sides of the argument. And I for one, prefer to get my information from a reputable source and not a bunch of people that think "Yahoo" is a university.

Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review

Raw diets: Do they make you want to BARF? (Proceedings) - Veterinary Healthcare

Raw Diets - Veterinary Community Blog post - Find it all here.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I think there is a lot of fear mongering on both sides of the table. 

There are risks involved regardless of how you feed. Salmonella in the kibble, poison in the China made treats, bacteria shed in the stool of RAW fed dogs. 

A RAW diet done poorly, IMO, is worse than the cheapest Ol Roy dog food.



Heidigsd said:


> . And I for one, prefer to get my information from a reputable source and not a bunch of people that think "Yahoo" is a university.
> .


And I can't even tell you how insulting and offensive ^^^ is. Do you really think we just looked on yahoo and tossed a slab of meat to our animals and called it good?

I know what a RAW diet, done properly, has done for my cat with IBD with not a single issue since he was switched to RAW, my 13 yr old Boxer who is the second oldest Boxer my very conventional vet practice has ever seen and the vet who contributed her longevity to dietary changes (RAW diet) that we made two years ago, and my German Shepherd.

I know how much research I've done and how many spreadsheets I have to track nutrients. And I didn't get that info from Yahoo University.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> And I for one, prefer to get my information from a reputable source


Please explain why "reputable sources" such as many veterinarians recommend Science Diet.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

To the OP – I have been feeding my dogs a raw diet for a few years and haven’t gotten ill from it (nor have the others who live in my house). I think an important factor in this is that I do believe in basic sanitary measures. I wash my hands. I do wash the dishes after they eat because who wants to eat out of a dirty dish? Would you eat off the same plate you ate a previous dinner from without washing it? I clean the cutting board and wash the counter off after food preparation as I would when preparing my own meals. I also mop floors once a week. I would do these things even if I fed a dry kibble. IMO clean up is basic when doing any food prep.



> The problem with the anectodal advise that is given here is that it is very one-sided and any risk a raw meat diet poses is quickly dismissed. Just because people repeat something over and over doesn't make it true.
> 
> There is lots of information from reputable sources advising against feeding raw but it's never presented. People can make up their own minds about how/what to feed their dogs and the risk they are willing to take but should have both sides of the argument. And I for one, prefer to get my information from a reputable source and not a bunch of people that think "Yahoo" is a university.


I guess that's what you get in a 'B.A.R.F./Raw Feeding' forum? If it really bothers you, why be "one-sided" yourself?  

There is also LOTS of information from reputable sources advising for feeding raw. 

Dr. Ian Billinghurst, BVSc (veterinary surgeon since 1976), Dr. Tom Longsdale, DVM (since 1972), Monica Segal (certified in Animal Health Care), Dr. Francis M. Pottenger Jr. MD, Dr. Richard Pitcairn DVM, Lew Olson (AKC Judge and researching Canine Nutrition since the 1980s), Kymythy Schultze (Certified Animal Health Instructor, Clinical Nutritionist, Professional dog trainer, groomer, veterinary assistant, dog breeder and licensed wildlife rehabilitator) and a LONG list of other well educated professionals (more than I care to take the time to list) are where many raw feeders get their information and develop some of our beliefs. 

I was first encouraged to feed my dogs a raw diet from a breeder (also schooled in pre-vet & animal husbandry) who has successfully fed her dogs this way for many years. She gave me the names of some of the people listed above as sources. 

It’s not just from anecdotal advice from others or surfing the net that we've gained our knowledge.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

To add to Vinnie's post....I actually use a different cutting board all together for meat and vege's and there is one specifically for the animal's meat. 99% of what I feed is human grade but a small percentage is not, trim from wild game or trim from human grade meat. It's probably just me being paranoid but I prefer to use a different cutting board that is cleaned with salt and lemon juice after I'm done.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> A RAW diet done poorly, IMO, is worse than the cheapest Ol Roy dog food.


This is a very good point. Personally, after having a dog develop elbow dysplasia, I'd never recommend feeding a large breed puppy raw and hope/pray it is getting the right amount of calcium.

IMO, it's safer to feed a good quality kibble, at least while the puppy is growing.
Even Ol 'Roy has to meet AAFCO standards for nutrition. 

And there's a risk to everything, yes, but raw isn't the "best" thing out there. It depends on YOU and your dog, what the best thing for your pet is.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> To add to Vinnie's post....*I actually use a different cutting board all together for meat and vege's *and there is one specifically for the animal's meat. 99% of what I feed is human grade but a small percentage is not, trim from wild game or trim from human grade meat. It's probably just me being paranoid but I prefer to use a different cutting board that is cleaned with salt and lemon juice after I'm done.


Funny you bring that up but this is what they teach in culinary schools. Always use one cutting board for the meats and a different one for the veggies.


----------

