# Pedigree eval?



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Any thoughts on what to expect out of this breeding? I have my thoughts but want to hear others.

Zwinger aus der Königshöhle (Zuchtmiete): Zucht von Yello aus der Königshöhle und Eliza aus der Königshöhle bei Working-dog.eu)


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

The details of the pedigree and parents are restricted to registered viewers. You do have a good change of getting a sable


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good logical pedigree with planning evident for a strong confident dogs with desire to work -- look into Mike and Mona Pixner for the core combination -- 
I would expect pushy determined dogs with strong natural instinct , easy to motivate , resilient , tough guys . Not reactive . Not edgy . 
Nice !


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

He's a breeder I'd buy a dog from.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the dam is NZ and has a ZW of 99.....she is line bred on some dogs with less than great hip production....theoretically, the hips 'average' out - but you can still get the same hip structure as a parent/grandparent just like you can get the same croup, ear set, feet etc....

In Europe, I think they tend to be more accepting of the risk of bad hips in a litter, puppies are less expensive and often more of a commodity than here. It is not prioritized or taken as emotionally seriously as it is in this country...cultural difference and one to be aware of when you look at foreign litters.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would expect fabulous working temperament. Hard dogs with strong drives, very good nerve, strong aggression in bitework, excellent work ethic and instinctive behavior. But I would worry about joints. As much as I love Ernst myself, I'm not sure I'd linebreed on him (or in this case a very close linebreeding on littermate offspring of Ernst) for that reason. There are some nice hip genetics coming from other areas of the pedigree which might be enough to offset that risk.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the responses thus far. What you all have mentioned is what I saw seeing as well. Dogs with excellent working temperament that will have a good amount of aggression, drives, etc. I would say that hip issues would be in the back of my mind but wouldn't stop me from buying a pup.

@Chris - I did think about the linebreeding on Ernest as I remember the thread about him in which you gave a lot of insight on him in a ped as well as the linebreeding on him.

@Carmen - I see it the same as well. Dogs that you certainly have to earn their respect so they can work with you and not against you. Definitely not dogs you can force to do something.

@MsK - Yes. Hannes is a good guy and I bought my pup from him who turns a year old this month. I wouldnt hesitate to get another pup from him.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I remember reading a thread on PDB where someone mentioned the fact that the lines that produce really strong dogs with great working temperament can have a high chance of hip issues if you take into account the ZW score.

After some research I see it is true. Peko Haus, Korbelbach, Haus Pixner, Konigshohle... When looking at ZW scores many are in the 90's and 100's.
Interesting as these kennels are known for producing tough dogs with excellent nerve and workability. IMO I rather take all the other traits and take a gamble on the hips. 
Thoughts?

I wouldn't though gamble on the other traits and NOT have to really worry about hips.

After this breeding, where would you all go breeding wise after it? I was thinking about going somewhere with a hip improver. A good direction that I have noticed many go in with a breeding like this would then take this dog to a nice dog with Vito in the 2nd or 3rd generation. The same type of dog though and not just a random nice looking pedigree.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I wouldn't gamble on the hips nor for that matter any other traits when I am paying that much money for a pup. I would look around, wait, and get the best I could afford. Also, if I wanted a pup with the goal of competing in IPO, I would consider the US bred pups from strong working lines that have titled parents and at least 3 generations of good hips.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sweet!.....though I have a lot of these genetics....for the people getting these pups, short of any health issues a very very nice breeding.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Ace952 said:


> I remember reading a thread on PDB where someone mentioned the fact that the lines that produce really strong dogs with great working temperament can have a high chance of hip issues if you take into account the ZW score.
> 
> After some research I see it is true. Peko Haus, Korbelbach, Haus Pixner, Konigshohle... When looking at ZW scores many are in the 90's and 100's.
> Interesting as these kennels are known for producing tough dogs with excellent nerve and workability. IMO I rather take all the other traits and take a gamble on the hips.
> ...


I guess the way I see it is if you gamble on the hips and you lose, it doesn't matter how much workability a dog has because he won't be able to walk / be painfree after awhile.

I would just look until you find the complete package.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Meg, I think your statement about workability and pain is greatly exaggerated. When I was in military dog program, the Army/Air Force accepted dogs with up to grade one HD. The screening and diagnostic evals were done by Vets and Trainers that were dealing with this subject for careers and tens of thousands of dogs. These people were making assessments based on real work and empirical knowledge. Most LE will accept dogs with functional hips as determined by competent Vets. These standards are based on a dogs ability to work hard and pain free. For breeders, it is understood why many want "perfect" hips, but most family owners never breed or X-ray their dogs. Most don't really work their dogs. I have seen many many dogs with mild/moderate HD that perform SCH painfree. I am not promoting HD whatsoever, ( before the people take what I say to extremes to support their feelings), but most dogs with moderate hips to normal really do not have the drastic life your post implies. I could be wrong, and your point of reference may be wider and more exhaustive than mine.....but I have found that only severe and crippling HD produce routinely what you are cautioning against. Less than 5% of GS pop....I just don't want people who have xrayed their dogs and maybe gotten a mild HD remember your post and think the dog is in pain or can't do normal things. Jmo


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

mego said:


> I guess the way I see it is if you gamble on the hips and you lose, it doesn't matter how much workability a dog has because he won't be able to walk / be painfree after awhile.
> 
> I would just look until you find the complete package.


One needs to remember there are many different levels of "bad" when it comes to joints. The severe cases that fall under your description of "won't be able to walk / be painfree" are very much in the minority. 

With this specific bloodline, the "bad" I've seen have been such from a radiographic standpoint, but not from a clinical standpoint. Dogs whose hips were considered to be mild HD and thus were not able to pass certification with OFA, etc... but which never bothered the dog at all and had no impact on workability or quality of life.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Does the complete package really exist?

If the temperament of the pups is as predicted, I'd be more than happy to take the hips risk.

I'm not waiting for Prince Charming anymore either


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> I remember reading a thread on PDB where someone mentioned the fact that the lines that produce really strong dogs with great working temperament can have a high chance of hip issues if you take into account the ZW score.
> 
> After some research I see it is true. Peko Haus, Korbelbach, Haus Pixner, Konigshohle... When looking at ZW scores many are in the 90's and 100's.
> Interesting as these kennels are known for producing tough dogs with excellent nerve and workability. IMO I rather take all the other traits and take a gamble on the hips.
> Thoughts?


Those with much more knowledge have weighed in on the specific pedigree and I have nothing to add other than to say, I like it. 

Regarding the quote above, my understanding is that an aspect of the temperament/hips issue goes back to the very foundation of the breed, back to the regional breed types that made up the GSD. In my view, a singular focus on hips likely will have a deleterious impact on temperament and the breed as a whole. I am not saying hips and joints are not important, but, as good breeders and knowledgeable folk often point out, it is one piece of the overall puzzle. Personally, as someone who does not breed, I will take stellar temperament and functional hips over excellent hips and so-so/decent temperament any day of the week and twice on Sunday. In a perfect world, you get the best of both. 

Regarding hip improvers, the first name I always see mentioned is Aly. You see this on the dam side of the pedigree you posted. Daryl Ehret has a link on his website with a chart of top hip producers. You may want to check that out.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I just wanted to clarify my above statement, I know it was a very extreme example. i'm not implying this pair will have EXTREMELY poor hips, I just commented on the 'take a gamble' quote. I guess I just interpreted it too sensitively when OP said "and take a gamble on the hips" because if just read like that it sort of makes it sound like they don't matter at all. I was a little tired, skim read a little bit, and my reaction was like "what, gamble on health?!"

The fact that you participate on this website, ask opinions of those who know such a vast amount of information and actively look at pedigrees tells me otherwise, I know you do care about the hips. I am sure you are very thorough in picking your puppy and wouldn't intentionally ignore hips completely. again, I am sorry. I didn't mean to use such an extreme example.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No need to be sorry, we all write posts in haste sometimes, I respect you more because you can analyze what you wrote and write the post you just wrote....much respect:hug:.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Sorry about how I worded it. Yes, by gamble I meant a chance of 1 or 2 having mild HD. I didn't mean crippling HD.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Mary Beth said:


> I wouldn't gamble on the hips nor for that matter any other traits when I am paying that much money for a pup. I would look around, wait, and get the best I could afford. Also, if I wanted a pup with the goal of competing in IPO, I would consider the US bred pups from strong working lines that have titled parents and at least 3 generations of good hips.



With pups you aren't guaranteed anything except a living animal...lol. Money isn't a issue here. Pups from this breeder are actually cheaper than US bred pups. Titled parents & 3 generations of good hips guarantee nothing as well. Yes, there are nice bred litters here in the U.S. but there are some overseas and they have more variety.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ditto. If you want to go absolutely sure on the hips, then you have to get an A-Stamped green one year old. Otherwise, there is just no such thing as a guarantee that the hips are going to be clean.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes, but your chances are greatly increased of getting a pup with good hips if the parents and 3 generations back have good hips. And also, I would want the parentage cleared for DM.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

No one in Europe is DNA testing for DM just yet -- some people are having the test done before they import a dog, though.


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