# Working your dog in defense



## GSDElsa

I did some table work with Medo today, and it got me thinking...how many schutzhund people these days really work their dogs in defense at all throughout their schutzhund careers? We are always talking about how we're losing our strong dogs......so really.....how many out there put real stress on your dog and even attempt to bring out this drive in them? And how did you do this?


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## gagsd

From my limited perspective, an awful lot of people work their dogs in defense while thinking they are doing prey work.


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## hunterisgreat

I work my dogs a great deal, 75% of the time, in aggression (as opposed to pure defense, which is I'm assuming what you meant by defense). I don't like the resulting picture from all prey work. I work them in purely prey for certain things and situations, but the final picture is the highest state of aggression we can produce


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> From my limited perspective, an awful lot of people work their dogs in defense while thinking they are doing prey work.


And even more think their dog is working in aggression/defense when they are actually 100% in prey


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## hunterisgreat

We started with table work. With Katya it is/was a matter of conditioning her to go into that state of mind on command. With jäger it is/was setting up scenerios off the field/out of the routine to get him in that state of mind. I'd feign cleaning up the gear and turn off the stadium lights at the end of the night, the helper would be ominously staring from the woods edge... This would bring out the full aggression in jäger so I could a) praise and encourage that, and b) eventually bringing in more control while keeping the aggression high. It's harder to get him in high aggression if he sees blinds setup or knows we are "just training". This is the primary reason I do suit work and starting muzzle work with him... To get the proper state of mind "in the routine" and on a Schutzhund field. Katya is doing lots of muzzle work for the same reasons. If you watch those vids I've posted she is getting nice and intense in her muzzle work. We will keep going down this path with both as far as it leads and as fast as walking that fine line of control will allow.


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## Liesje

My dog has seen too much defense, or at least it was allowed to become that for him (he would come out onto the field in too high a state of defense). Now we have added in more prey work, bringing more balance. He is still more defense than prey which I like but the overall picture is higher drive, stronger, more powerful dog (and better biting). I've never put him on a table though, not against it at all but I don't think he needs it and no helper has suggested it. We actually had a seminar today and one of his last reps he did in the blind the judge said would have been full points guarding which is huge for us since I messed him up a few years back and have been working that out ever since, but he's finally to the point where he's starting to show even better than he was before we messed up.

As for stress, yes in general I am all about teaching the dog to work through pressure, using rewards as releases not bribes, etc. I learned a few ideas today that I plan to work on this winter. In bitework I'm a big fan of the PA test because there are eight frontal attacks but no bites. And by frontal attack I don't mean a helper zipping crab-style out of the blind holding out a sleeve, I mean full suit charging the dog/handler with lots of verbal threat and stick. For me protection is about a lot more than "gripping" and biting. I've seen some "top level" SchH3 dogs fall apart on these exercises (and this is only the first level of SDA which you can actually skip over) because they are so equipment focused and/or have no idea how to deal with a real attack without the security of a bite and some of these dogs can show defense and do have strong aggression but get so patterned trained for sleeves they aren't really processing a true threat.


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## x11

i could not do that - put a dog on a table to work it in defence, i got a very nasty dog out of the box, if he wasn't like that i would not do anything to make him that way, i would just use him for whatever his talents (or lack of them) dictated. 

to put a dog on a table and push it into defence *for sport* to me is better but not much better than making dogs fight each other jmo.


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## Mrs.K

I prefer not to. Especially not Nala. She's enough dog as it is. Anyone that ever saw her, knows what I'm talking about.


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## hunterisgreat

*Lets set some ground rules here...* "Table work" can mean wildly different things to different people... And can BE wildly different for the same dog in the same table scenario with a different helper. Also, defense and aggression mean different things to different people


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> I prefer not to. Especially not Nala. She's enough dog as it is. Anyone that ever saw her, knows what I'm talking about.


It doesn't change the dog really... No different than teaching a dog to control themselves in prey. Anyway, aggression is the appropriate state of mind in much of the protection work


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## x11

i think to most people defence means that a dog "perceives" that it's life is being threatened even if it is just a perception caused by good acting, to the dog it's real. 

table work can vary of course on how it is used but again most people imo see the table as cutting off all escape routes to the dog, a dog that might have otherwise fled soon learns that it physically can't, often learned by falling off the table and choking some. 

so put a dog that thinks it's fighting for it's life and knows all it's avenues for flight have been taken away AND most likely getting a good whipping - the animal is in survival mode, sugar coat it any way you want. - can't be fun for the dog and to do that just to get more points in sport - i puke on you.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> i could not do that - put a dog on a table to work it in defence, i got a very nasty dog out of the box, if he wasn't like that i would not do anything to make him that way, i would just use him for whatever his talents (or lack of them) dictated.
> 
> to put a dog on a table and push it into defence *for sport* to me is better but not much better than making dogs fight each other jmo.


A bit of an ignorant response (no insult intended, just being frank). To do REAL protection the dog must work in aggression... I have done lots of table work. I wouldnt push a dog into defense either. I want to produce strong, confident aggression. If the dog is in real defense you are doing it wrong, IMO

And a dog working only in prey should not receive a pronounced in my opinion, however we have others much more familiar with the rules. A dog only ever in prey doesn't really show you what stress he can or cannot deal with, and you can't see truly how confident he is


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> i think to most people defence means that a dog "perceives" that it's life is being threatened even if it is just a perception caused by good acting, to the dog it's real.
> 
> table work can vary of course on how it is used but again most people imo see the table as cutting off all escape routes to the dog, a dog that might have otherwise fled soon learns that it physically can't, often learned by falling off the table and choking some.
> 
> so put a dog that thinks it's fighting for it's life and knows all it's avenues for flight have been taken away AND most likely getting a good whipping - the animal is in survival mode, sugar coat it any way you want. - can't be fun for the dog and to do that just to get more points in sport - i puke on you.


That is but one way, SOME people use a table. None of my dogs have ever fallen off of a table, much less choked. The chain should be too short to allow for that. My dogs have never been in defense on a table, never whipped on a table, and when they see the table they scramble to get on it. They LOVE the table work. AND, working in aggression costs more points most of the time, so it's little to do with putting up higher scores for me. 

If a dog won't engage a helper unless he is sleeve-river dancing, that dog doesn't belong in the sport, or doing protection at all


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## x11

hunter was not implying YOU use those tools abusively, and make no mistake there is high potential for abuse. it is like the e/prong collar debate - it's just a tool that can be used properly or abused. in general terms a dog in defence is a dog in defence and a slightly less so a table is a table. i know guys that use tables (or claim to) because they work so many dogs in a day and they have bad backs and the table means they gotta bend there back less to work the dog...alrighty. 

have posted this before, what drive do you think this basically untrained dog is in. 

he has never been on a table or been whipped, stuck or abused in any way - if the dog did not have this response then i would not try and make him, i think it's "defensive" but the dog just wants to eat the guy cos thats what his genetics says to do,eat the guy, dog has been like this since forever and wants the man cos he wants the man. i would not MAKE a dog do this;


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## hunterisgreat

As always, a few seconds of watching a dog I don't know work isn't nearly enough to know a dog, but here is my take

He starts off in aggression especially at a distance. (note i didnt say defence... defence is forced "i must be aggressive" rooted in fear. aggression is chosen "i *want to hurt him" and confident) and then when he sees the sleeve prey comes on in a big way, the aggression comes back to a degree when the helper puts the sleeve behind him but now prey is still primarily his work after that, on an aggressive backdrop that is an artifact of the start of the work. The sleeve bite and throwing the sleeve away further spikes his prey. I understand its a new helper, but it's a struggle to keep any aggression up for the rest of that clip... Not a trait of that dog per se, just how that went. I wouldn't have had a sleeve or bite involved. The dog gets rewarded by scaring off the threat and making him flee... Hard to do without experienced helper.

The off leash fence work is better aggression than the first clip, but the fence will amplify that anyway so it's not a clear picture of the dog. The fence could come down and the dog engage and bite, or flee... neither would surprise me. I'd have liked to see his aggression without a fence in the way, and no sleeve.

My dogs don't "need" a table, we just use one to maximize our performance. They have never been on the type of table you describe, and the aggression they show is quite genetic and would express with or without a table. Its not a common or consistent part of our training and there is only one person I trust for table work and the only one who has worked my dogs on a table... As your opinion of table work so clearly shows, most people screw it up. 

Nor have my dogs been whipped, beaten, or otherwise pain stimmed into showing anything


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## hunterisgreat

Particularly at the minute mark you can see his aggression coming back when the helper walks towards the dog (to get the sleeve on the ground), and then the switch back to prey when he gets the sleeve. When he has it behind his back and reaches out he shows briefly again, but then back to prey with the extended sleeve presentation. 

If it were my dog and I was working on aggression, the state of mind he is in at the last clip with the fence, and in the first clip when the helper reaches out at him, when the helper first approaches, etc, is where I would try to keep the dog for the entire session.


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## Liesje

I agree with Hunter, work dogs in aggression and that needs both prey and defense. I don't like guarding that is taught in prey and/or as an obedience exercise.


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## GSDElsa

This thread was not meant to debate table work. It quite amazes me the the amount of ignorance in this thread related to table work....obviously from people who have never done it (or done it correctly). Done correctly, it does not CHANGE your dog, it brings out different aspects of your dog that SHOULD already be there. The dogs that take a dump on the table, back up, cower....are quite frankly the ones, IMO, who have no business doing protection work in the first place. And if someone doing table work is pushing your dog beyond the point they should because they don't know what they are doing, then it is your responsibility to step in a remove your dog from that situation. 

And I guess I don't mean working a dog in ONLY defense on nothing else, but rather no prey (or only uses prey at every specific points). I don't think 100% defense "I must bite you before you kill me" is correct for a dog either. Even on the table I think there should be a balance of defense with proper aggression and seriousness....and most importantlly...CONFIDENCE!

Like I said, there are a lot of different ways to stress and test your dog. Table work done PROPERLY is just one of those ways.


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## onyx'girl

GSDElsa said:


> I did some table work with Medo today, and it got me thinking...how many schutzhund people these days really work their dogs in defense at all throughout their schutzhund careers? We are always talking about how we're losing our strong dogs......so really.....how many out there put real stress on your dog and even attempt to bring out this drive in them? And how did you do this?


I think the most important thing is creating a balance. Some dogs are all prey some are more defensive naturally. So the helper needs to tap the drive that is not as strong to get the dog into a balance. Adding in pressure along the way....some dogs just don't have the heart to work through stress/pressure regardless. And some dogs learn they have more confidence/power when they can work through it. 

Waiting for the dog to mature some is IMO the best way to achieve it.


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## GSDElsa

onyx'girl said:


> Adding in pressure along the way....some dogs just don't have the heart to work through stress/pressure regardless. And some dogs learn they have more confidence/power when they can work through it.


I guess that's where I was going with the thread....how many people these days are ever putting real stress/pressure on their dogs throughout training so they know if here dog has that confidence and power to work through it? Or do we all just take the attitude "anyone who has seen my dog knows they don't need it" rolleyes2 or "putting stress and pressure on a dog is the equivalent to dog fighting" crazy. 

I do agree that that one should wait until maturity to really test a dog...otherwise you are asking for disaster.


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## qbchottu

Prey when young. Defense slowly introduced when the dog matures and is ready for it. Eventually marry the two and bring out balanced drives. That's the hope at least


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## gagsd

hunterisgreat said:


> And even more think their dog is working in aggression/defense when they are actually 100% in prey


I see many, many times the helper coming in, swinging/tossing the sleeve back and forth and calling that "prey." But the helper is always facing the dog and/or staring at the dog. 
I have been taught that the forward presentation of the helper to the dog is defense work. Offering the cheek, shoulder or back to the dog is prey.
But it depends on if one considers the sleeve the item of attraction, or the helper.

Ultimately we can name things whatever we want.... it is the dog who decides.


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## gagsd

GSDElsa said:


> This thread was not meant to debate table work. It quite amazes me the the amount of ignorance in this thread related to table work....obviously from people who have never done it (or done it correctly). Done correctly, it does not CHANGE your dog, it brings out different aspects of your dog that SHOULD already be there. The dogs that take a dump on the table, back up, cower....are quite frankly the ones, IMO, who have no business doing protection work in the first place. And if someone doing table work is pushing your dog beyond the point they should because they don't know what they are doing, then it is your responsibility to step in a remove your dog from that situation.
> 
> And I guess I don't mean working a dog in ONLY defense on nothing else, but rather no prey (or only uses prey at every specific points). I don't think 100% defense "I must bite you before you kill me" is correct for a dog either. Even on the table I think there should be a balance of defense with proper aggression and seriousness....and most importantlly...CONFIDENCE!
> 
> Like I said, there are a lot of different ways to stress and test your dog. Table work done PROPERLY is just one of those ways.


I just need to offer the fact that I know a few successful, big name, international competitors who might disagree with you here. I have seen table work done with the goal to change the dog. I have seen table work done that was ugly and horrifying. And I guarantee you the people doing it said they were doing it correctly.


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> I see many, many times the helper coming in, swinging/tossing the sleeve back and forth and calling that "prey." But the helper is always facing the dog and/or staring at the dog.
> I have been taught that the forward presentation of the helper to the dog is defense work. Offering the cheek, shoulder or back to the dog is prey.
> But it depends on if one considers the sleeve the item of attraction, or the helper.
> 
> Ultimately we can name things whatever we want.... it is the dog who decides.


The last sentence is absolutely correct. Frontal posture DOES stimulate aggression & defense, however while frontal is enough to make some dogs retreat to the handler and go into full avoidance even when the frontal posture is with a smiling helper wiggling a rag and sweet talking the dog it is just as often not enough for some dogs who the mere sight of the sleeve locks the dog so high in prey that eye contact, frontal, predatory/challenging movement and posture cannot overrule the sight of that sleeve. It depends on the dog. The latter kind must be started off without a sleeve in sight and either use the helper going into avoidance as the reward, or grab a hidden sleeve and present it at the last second so the dog doesn't have time to transition into prey. The former type of dog can't have frontal positioning, eye contact, much noise, and I've even worked dogs I had to basically lay prone to get them to engage (puppies, not adult dogs)

Its not defense work because the helper is frontal. Its not prey work b/c the sleeve is moving. Its defensive work because the frontal posture got **THAT** dog to show aggression, and its prey work because the sleeve movement got **THAT** dog to switch to prey.


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## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> I just need to offer the fact that I know a few successful, big name, international competitors who might disagree with you here. I have seen table work done with the goal to change the dog. I have seen table work done that was ugly and horrifying. And I guarantee you the people doing it said they were doing it correctly.


I know a few successful, big name, international competitors that would say "if you want to do tablework, exercise extreme caution with whom you are doing it as most people royally hose it up." In general, those who truly understand it would probably give the advice of "don't do it", in the same way that someone like Lou Castle wouldn't hand someone an e-collar without explaining how to *properly* employ it and just let them "wing it". Bad table work is just as damaging as e-stimming a dog at twice the level that dog requires, or hanging a dog on a prong. You can abuse any tool.


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## GSDElsa

gagsd said:


> And I guarantee you the people doing it said they were doing it correctly.


No one does anything saying they are doing it incorrectly  

Again, I'm not here to debate the pros and cons of table work and to argue if you have seen it done correctly or not. I can only speak for how it's done in my "circles" and it's always envoked additional confidence and power in the dog through putting an appropriate level of stress and pressure that corresponds to their maturity level. For weak dogs that couldn't handle it, the owner received a frank talk about their dog's appropriatness for the sport. Anyone doing anything but that is abusing the tool IMO..........just like what can happen with any other tool. For every big name international competitor who doesn't like table work, there is one who sees the value in it if done well (just like for every big name international competitor who uses shaping and clicker training, there is one who would never be caught dead using such soft, pansy ways to train a dog).

I was merely using what I did with Medo yesterday as one example of ways to test the power and strength in your dog through stress and pressure and was curious as to how other people found ways to truly "test" their dogs. If done at all.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> I know a few successful, big name, international competitors that would say "if you want to do tablework, exercise extreme caution with whom you are doing it as most people royally hose it up." In general, those who truly understand it would probably give the advice of "don't do it", in the same way that someone like Lou Castle wouldn't hand someone an e-collar without explaining how to *properly* employ it and just let them "wing it". Bad table work is just as damaging as e-stimming a dog at twice the level that dog requires, or hanging a dog on a prong. You can abuse any tool.


It's always a hot topic, no matter if you are in the US or in Germany. 

My family never used a table. They had no need for it.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> My family never used a table. They had no need for it.


:rofl: A lot of dogs don't "need" a table. Not quite the point here. Think Eros does? Medo? Boker? Jaeger? Nike? Just wondering


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> It's always a hot topic, no matter if you are in the US or in Germany.
> 
> My family never used a table. They had no need for it.


A dog doesn't "need" a prong collar, or an e-collar, or a choke collar, or a clicker, or marker training at all, or treats, or a sleeve, or suit work, or muzzle work, or praise, or corrections... but we chose certain tools or methods because they are reliable and produce better results.

I quite assure you I could clone Jäger, never teach the clone so much as a sit, down, fuss or watch, put him on a collar and line in the front hall and have you kick my front door in, and you will see a level of civil aggression that would truly shock you and that is very very rare in dogs these days.


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## Mrs.K

Jeeez... as if I don't know that... 


You can't say anything on this forum without getting a lecture these days. 

So irritating!


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> :rofl: A lot of dogs don't "need" a table. Not quite the point here. Think Eros does? Medo? Boker? Jaeger? Nike? Just wondering


It's a matter of training philosophy.

No need to be like that.


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## gagsd

mrs.k said:


> jeeez... As if i don't know that...
> 
> 
> You can't say anything on this forum without getting a lecture these days.
> 
> So irritating!


:d:d:d:d


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Jeeez... as if I don't know that...
> 
> 
> You can't say anything on this forum without getting a lecture these days.
> 
> So irritating!


Well when you say things like "my dog doesn't need table work" or "we train such that we don't need table work", its like me watching your training video and saying "my dog doesn't need marker training".. you'd conclude that I simply don't understand marker training, and be a bit offended at my indirect implication that dogs or trainers that need marker training are inferior.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Well when you say things like "my dog doesn't need table work" or "we train such that we don't need table work", its like me watching your training video and saying "my dog doesn't need marker training".. you'd conclude that I simply don't understand marker training, and be a bit offended at my indirect implication that dogs or trainers that need marker training are inferior.


I never said that you don't understand it. I merely said that my family never needed a table to work dogs. 
Again, it's a matter of training philosophy.


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## Liesje

I see a table as a tool that limits a dog's options and hopefully brings more confidence because they are higher up. The breeder's I got Pan from use it a lot and most times it doesn't look to me like they are focusing on defense work. The table makes it possible to work a dog in a smaller space and give the helper more control. The handler is always standing on the table with the dog giving commands, corrections, and praise.

As to the original question I still like PA test as a basic test of how a dog handles pressure during a direct, physical confrontation (and whether he can maintain obedience). I value fast reactions to my commands or fast reactions to a direct threat (without a command), appropriate thresholds (being able to instantly turn off and have a someone in our personal space who is not confrontational), power and confidence in guarding, being able to sustain guarding not only until the threat has left but until the handler stays to stop, and being able to load and cap in drive and show obedience during protection more than I value fast escapes, twirling long bites, and "full grips". I know my dog will bite and I know it hurts because I've been told so by several fit guys, I'm more interested in how he will work through a high level of pressure without the option of biting.


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> I never said that you don't understand it. I merely said that my family never needed a table to work dogs.
> Again, it's a matter of training philosophy.


no, no.. *I* have to conclude that *you* don't understand ****GOOD**** table work with blanket statements like "its not part of our training philosophy". You're dismissing the technique without knowing how to do it or the results. Its just naive to dismiss something that is not understood.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> I see a table as a tool that limits a dog's options and hopefully brings more confidence because they are higher up. The breeder's I got Pan from use it a lot and most times it doesn't look to me like they are focusing on defense work. The table makes it possible to work a dog in a smaller space and give the helper more control. The handler is always standing on the table with the dog giving commands, corrections, and praise.
> 
> As to the original question I still like PA test as a basic test of how a dog handles pressure during a direct, physical confrontation (and whether he can maintain obedience). I value fast reactions to my commands or fast reactions to a direct threat (without a command), appropriate thresholds (being able to instantly turn off and have a someone in our personal space who is not confrontational), power and confidence in guarding, being able to sustain guarding not only until the threat has left but until the handler stays to stop, and being able to load and cap in drive and show obedience during protection more than I value fast escapes, twirling long bites, and "full grips". I know my dog will bite and I know it hurts because I've been told so by several fit guys, I'm more interested in how he will work through a high level of pressure without the option of biting.


muzzle work closes the option of biting entirely


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## GSDElsa

Liesje said:


> I see a table as a tool that limits a dog's options and hopefully brings more confidence because they are higher up. The breeder's I got Pan from use it a lot *and most times it doesn't look to me like they are focusing on defense work. *The table makes it possible to work a dog in a smaller space and give the helper more control. The handler is always standing on the table with the dog giving commands, corrections, and praise.


Yep, LOTS of different ways to use a table! Bringing out defense and aggression is only one....but like you said, the end result should be increased confidence no matter what drives being brought out because of the height.


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## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> muzzle work closes the option of biting entirely


True and I like that too. Muzzle work is incorporated into some of the other tests beyond the PA. I do see a difference though, as I've been told that the dog making contact with a muzzle to the dog is like biting. The dog gains confidence when he's given the chance to make that contact on the person. I like the PA test because the dog can't touch the decoy with his face at all (if the decoy makes a mistake, you're OK; if you make a mistake handling your dog, goodbye; a decoy failed certification when my dog was used for testing). I see guarding/alerting/barking as an aggression exercise so I like to see how the dog does using only this form of protection and being able to turn it on and turn it off. Some dogs just can't handle not being able to bite or push the helper around physically or they show really good aggression but get so loaded the obedience goes to crap.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> It's a matter of training philosophy.
> 
> No need to be like that.


Be like what? You specifically said that Nala didn't need it because she was "enough" dog without it. Showing you don't at all understand it...so I feel that it's a legitimate question that if you think Nala shouldn't be on it because she's so much dog already...then why do you think the owners of those arguably VERY NICE and strong dogs (we'll take Medo out of that mix since I put him in there not because I think that highly of him, lol!) and VERY knowledgeable people...I mean, certainly Eros is "enough" dog without the table, wouldn't you say?


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## GSDElsa

Liesje said:


> I like the PA test because the dog can't touch the decoy with his face at all (if the decoy makes a mistake, you're OK; if you make a mistake handling your dog, goodbye; a decoy failed certification when my dog was used for testing). I see guarding/alerting/barking as an aggression exercise so I like to see how the dog does using only this form of protection and being able to turn it on and turn it off. Some dogs just can't handle not being able to bite or push the helper around physically or they show really good aggression but get so loaded the obedience goes to crap.


Sounds more and more interesting the more you go into it.


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## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> no, no.. *I* have to conclude that *you* don't understand ****GOOD**** table work with blanket statements like "its not part of our training philosophy". You're dismissing the technique without knowing how to do it or the results. Its just naive to dismiss something that is not understood.


You assume that. There is a big difference between understanding and seeing a need for it.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> True and I like that too. Muzzle work is incorporated into some of the other tests beyond the PA. I do see a difference though, as I've been told that the dog making contact with a muzzle to the dog is like biting. The dog gains confidence when he's given the chance to make that contact on the person. I like the PA test because the dog can't touch the decoy with his face at all (if the decoy makes a mistake, you're OK; if you make a mistake handling your dog, goodbye; a decoy failed certification when my dog was used for testing). I see guarding/alerting/barking as an aggression exercise so I like to see how the dog does using only this form of protection and being able to turn it on and turn it off. Some dogs just can't handle not being able to bite or push the helper around physically or they show really good aggression but get so loaded the obedience goes to crap.


In muzzlework the dog is rewarded not b/c of the contact or the hit, but by watching the helper crumple in pain after the hit... one could conclude it is the hit that satisfies the dog from watching it, but it is not the hit at all.. and this is an important aspect of the muzzlework and why it is hard to get a helper to do it right. YOu can see this when a dog strikes a helper with the muzzle and the helper just backs up or seems unhurt by it and the dog doesn't see that his strike affected the helper. Right now, I've just started helperwork with my male, and you can see in this video that I need much more reaction from the helper... after each strike (and he doesn't yet know he can strike hard... this is the first time he did muzzle work, and only done it twice partly b/c of what you see here) he falls to the ground and tries extremely hard to remove the muzzle... the reaction of the helper is not sufficiently satisfying and he seeks to bite for real in order to satisfy this urge. If he hit the helper and the helper collapsed to the ground screaming bloody murder and crawled away, his desire to hurt and dominate the helper would have been satisfied. To show him that his strikes are a weapon he can use, I must have a helper that more effectively and dramatically shows him that his strikes are just as bad as biting.






"Some dogs just can't handle not being able to bite".. its not that they can't handle it, its that they've been taught their only tool is biting. muzzle work and table work address this

"push the helper around physically".. table work addresses this.

or they show really good aggression but get so loaded the obedience goes to crap." This is a training mistake, not a fault of the dog. The training foster'ed aggression too much too fast without bringing in equal control. If aggression goes up, control must be brought up in proportion.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Be like what? You specifically said that Nala didn't need it because she was "enough" dog without it. Showing you don't at all understand it...so I feel that it's a legitimate question that if you think Nala shouldn't be on it because she's so much dog already...then why do you think the owners of those arguably VERY NICE and strong dogs (we'll take Medo out of that mix since I put him in there not because I think that highly of him, lol!) and VERY knowledgeable people...I mean, certainly Eros is "enough" dog without the table, wouldn't you say?


No, I did not say a word about table work. I prefer her not to work in defense and I said that my family didn't see a need to use a table back then. I never said that I don't see a need.

And to elaborate, what Eros's owner can handle and what I could handle on the field (not talking about private life) are two different things. Nikes owner, Eros's owner are very experienced handlers. I doubt I could handle a dog like Eros on the field, at this point and that is something one has to acknowledge. I've got enough dog to handle and I need to learn to handle that dog on the field first before I start experimenting with everything else. 

First the BASICS, than we go from there. 

Maybe that makes a little more sense. I have to learn to drive that Ferrari that I have under my butt without crashing it into a wall before I can go into the next higher gear and crank it up!


----------



## hunterisgreat

To do an IPO1, the dog must work in both drives...


----------



## gagsd

hunterisgreat said:


> To do an IPO1, the dog must work in both drives...


Well, now,,,,, that is debatable You should qualify that statement.


----------



## qbchottu

I agree gagsd. Coming from show dogs, I have seen more than one showline trained and titled almost entirely in prey - suppose this can happen in the working dogs also. Not well mind you, but it is done. Drives are not properly balanced for many titled dogs. Just because you have a title does not automatically qualify the dog as having the right balance of drives.


----------



## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> To do an IPO1, the dog must work in both drives...


Really?


----------



## hunterisgreat

gagsd said:


> Well, now,,,,, that is debatable You should qualify that statement.


Consider just the escape... Prey on the escape, turn and out to demonstrate control, attack into the dog to transition into aggression (prey never attacks its predators, it only defends when it cannot flee). Out again to demonstrate control, re-attack and stick hit to increase aggression and pressure... All right there


----------



## hunterisgreat

qbchottu said:


> I agree gagsd. Coming from show dogs, I have seen more than one showline trained and titled almost entirely in prey - suppose this can happen in the working dogs also. Not well mind you, but it is done. Drives are not properly balanced for many titled dogs. Just because you have a title does not automatically qualify the dog as having the right balance of drives.


I'm not saying dogs don't pass that are all prey (they should fail IMO), just that to do an IPO1 FOR REAL, all drives must be shown. 

This sport will soon start giving trophies to all participants if we aren't careful


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## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Really?


Absolutely. If you don't wish for a dog to work in aggression, or a dog doesn't possess the ability to do so, protection training is ill suited to that dog/handler team


----------



## GSDElsa

gagsd said:


> Well, now,,,,, that is debatable You should qualify that statement.


Yeah, should and must are two different things and the topic of a totally different thread, lol! (or maybe not....)


----------



## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Absolutely. If you don't wish for a dog to work in aggression, or a dog doesn't possess the ability to do so, protection training is ill suited to that dog/handler team


Well, that's your opinion, not mine.

Even if the dog is worked in prey, a trained and experienced eye can always see through a dog and see their quality. I am doing SchH for fun, not because I need a PPD or because I want to compete at the WUSV. I do it because I enjoy doing it and not because I want to proof something to the rest of the world. I know what I've got and I want to grow with it. 

If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen. You have to grow with your dog and I wouldn't want anyone work their dog in defense if they are new to the sport.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GSDElsa said:


> Yeah, should and must are two different things and the topic of a totally different thread, lol! (or maybe not....)


True... When I said must, I should haved added, "to be properly and fully judged". 

An all prey routine is like shooting at a man shaped target all day at the rifle range, and concluding that your good marksmanship shows you are ready for war... Possibly yes, possibly no... Either way we didn't get to see the picture to conclude with *any* confidence. Worse, we are relying solely on your natural instinct and mental strength to be present instead of exploring those aspects of you and maximizing your natural abilities to retain your skills under heavy stress and adversity through training

No different than the companion only types who boast their dog would absolutely defend them bc "he's a gsd" and "protective" and "growled at a guy once"


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Well, that's your opinion, not mine.


I think if you logically honestly look at it, you'd agree. The dog can have a big fun and games jamboree with a sleeved helper, but that just *looks* like protection... It ain't fooling those who know what the real deal looks like.

Tai chi looks like hand to hand combat, as much as Brazilian jiu-jitsu does, to a layperson. However there are no, never have been, and never will be any tai chi practitioners professionally fighting.


----------



## holland

I am perfectly willing to admit I don'thave a clue about table training but there also seems to be an attitude of we -being in the club know what it is and you who are not in the club don't-and quite frankly I don't...but there also does not seem to be an attempt to educate those of use who don't. Haven't read the whole thread but if a dog is put on the table and cowers etc-in my opinion it isn't the dog who shouldn't be training-a good trainer in my opinion cares about and is fair to the dog-I have done schutzhund-never table training and I am not sure I have missed anything I think there are lots of different ways to train dogs-don't really believe that you have to use table training to bring out aggression-although the thing I miss most about schutzhund is sushi (so obviously not the best person to be giving out schutzhund advice)


----------



## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> I think if you logically honestly look at it, you'd agree. The dog can have a big fun and games jamboree with a sleeved helper, but that just *looks* like protection... It ain't fooling those who know what the real deal looks like.
> 
> Tai chi looks like hand to hand combat, as much as Brazilian jiu-jitsu does, to a layperson. However there are no, never have been, and never will be any tai chi practitioners professionally fighting.


Not necessarily. There are people that can look at a dog, without seeing it on a sleeve and they can give you already a judgement of whether "Yes." or "No" and the bitework is only to confirm what was already obvious.
There is much more to a dog than seeing him on a sleeve.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Well, that's your opinion, not mine.
> 
> Even if the dog is worked in prey, a trained and experienced eye can always see through a dog and see their quality. I am doing SchH for fun, not because I need a PPD or because I want to compete at the WUSV. I do it because I enjoy doing it and not because I want to proof something to the rest of the world. I know what I've got and I want to grow with it.
> 
> If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen. You have to grow with your dog and I wouldn't want anyone work their dog in defense if they are new to the sport.


Don't make implications or statements like that on a public forum which may undermine people's faith in my helper work who may read this, when it is not the case at all what you just said regarding how I work dogs. I assure you, no one I work with does not get a lengthy explanation as to the what, how, and why of every exercise. I train each dog how the handler and I feel that that dog needs to be trained. That's a wide array of training too broad to paint with one brush like that

Your goals are your goals. Have fun with it by all means.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Not necessarily. There are people that can look at a dog, without seeing it on a sleeve and they can give you already a judgement of whether "Yes." or "No" and the bitework is only to confirm what was already obvious.
> There is much more to a dog than seeing him on a sleeve.


Lol.

Yeah, that's why we toss the sleeve and use tables and muzzles, and alternative exercises

And no one can just look at a dog and say anything stronger than a questionable guess. If that were true, getting puppies wouldn't be so risky for top sport/ppd/etc work

I do training helper work many times a week, every week. I have an advantage when it comes to reading a dog I would guess


----------



## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Lol.
> 
> Yeah, that's why we toss the sleeve and use tables and muzzles, and alternative exercises
> 
> And no one can just look at a dog and say anything stronger than a questionable guess. If that were true, getting puppies wouldn't be so risky for top sport/ppd/etc work
> 
> I do training helper work many times a week, every week. I have an advantage when it comes to reading a dog I would guess


Sorry, but there is a big difference between a puppy and an adult and a mature dog. And yes, there are people that can look at an adult, matured dog, and judge the dog based on what they have in front of them. You don't need a sleeve to get a first impression of a dog. You don't need a sleeve to see that a dog is a nerve bag, you don't need a sleeve to see how a dog carries himself, or if a dog is confident or not or has drive. 


If you need a sleeve for that... well...


----------



## Mrs.K

hunterisgreat said:


> Don't make implications or statements like that on a public forum which may undermine people's faith in my helper work who may read this, when it is not the case at all what you just said regarding how I work dogs. I assure you, no one I work with does not get a lengthy explanation as to the what, how, and why of every exercise. I train each dog how the handler and I feel that that dog needs to be trained. That's a wide array of training too broad to paint with one brush like that
> 
> Your goals are your goals. Have fun with it by all means.


Oh no. It wasn't an implication, it was a conclusion... 



> no, no.. *I* have to conclude that *you* don't understand ****GOOD**** table work with blanket statements like "its not part of our training philosophy". You're dismissing the technique without knowing how to do it or the results. Its just naive to dismiss something that is not understood.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Sorry, but there is a big difference between a puppy and an adult and a mature dog. And yes, there are people that can look at an adult, matured dog, and judge the dog based on what they have in front of them. You don't need a sleeve to get a first impression of a dog. You don't need a sleeve to see that a dog is a nerve bag, you don't need a sleeve to see how a dog carries himself, or if a dog is confident or not or has drive.
> 
> 
> If you need a sleeve for that... well...


You are reading and interpreting things that I did not or did not intend to communicate... we are just not effectively communicating here... 

They can certainly judge a mature dog, on first glance, but that judgement, even by some of the best in the business, is rarely spot on, usually generally correct, but sometimes flat wrong. In my personal experience, someone's initial judgement after working one of my dogs was flat wrong. Not by my opinion, but by months later this person recanted their very own initial assessment and said they had interpreted the dog incorrectly and that their new, much better informed assessment was quite the polar opposite of the initial... 

So we will have to agree to disagree. I will submit that when I work a new dog or visiting/passing through handler & dog, I can get a general feel for how a dog is going to be. Assuming you know anything beyond that is at the detriment of the dog, the handler, and very often the helper's physical well being. Yet another reason a table is useful. No dog on the planet is able to stretch a table's chain even a fraction of a millimeter. The helper can get his face within an inch of an insanely aggressive dog and know there will be no leash slippage, no swaying handler, no handler's momentary off-balance foot placement shifting, and just work the dog safely.


----------



## hunterisgreat

holland said:


> I am perfectly willing to admit I don'thave a clue about table training but there also seems to be an attitude of we -being in the club know what it is and you who are not in the club don't-and quite frankly I don't...but there also does not seem to be an attempt to educate those of use who don't. Haven't read the whole thread but if a dog is put on the table and cowers etc-in my opinion it isn't the dog who shouldn't be training-a good trainer in my opinion cares about and is fair to the dog-I have done schutzhund-never table training and I am not sure I have missed anything I think there are lots of different ways to train dogs-don't really believe that you have to use table training to bring out aggression-although the thing I miss most about schutzhund is sushi (so obviously not the best person to be giving out schutzhund advice)


I'll gladly explain to you how, why, and when I use a table, muzzle, or any other tool. I don't do anything b/c someone said I should or "this is how it is done". I do something b/c it was explained to me what it was, how it worked, why it worked, when to use it, when not to use it, and *shown* how to use it. If I can't be persuaded of a technique's or tool's merits and believe in them through demonstration of its effectiveness, I do not use them. 

PM me if you like.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> If that's your opinion, and you have newbies, primarily work their dogs in defense, rather than prey, without them knowing how to handle, it or knowing what they have in their hands, that's a disaster waiting to happen.


When you make statements like that on a public forum, there is the risk that someone reads this and is dissuaded from even trying the sport or coming out to our club and *SEEING* how I train, b/c their naive/ignorant/uninformed interpretation of your statement is that I, as this clubs primary helper, am doing a disservice to handlers, "newbies", or somehow create disasters. That is offensive to me. I put *massive* time, money, and effort into learning how to do good helper work. I, more than any helper I have ever come across (and because of noticing it myself as a new handler), strongly encourage and push my handlers to take control of their own training. I don't do helper work if the handler doesn't understand or atleast is trying to understand the "what, why, and how" of a given exercise and of the things at play with *their* dog. Ask anyone who's dog I've worked. The first words out of my mouth are always "What would you like to work on", even when I know full well the answer will be "uhh.... I dunno... uhh... bitework?" I don't have the time, memory, or desire to manage 20+ dog's training programs on a weekly basis. I've got my own that more than satisfy that urge.

SO, if you want to make statements like that, please make them generic and not directed at me.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Mrs.K said:


> Oh no. It wasn't an implication, it was a conclusion...


Am I to interpret this as, you conclude you know more about a given training technique that you've never done and never wish to do, than me... who has done, with great results, this technique and continues to do?


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## Vandal

As a training helper I have used a "table" once.....it was a Pit Bull and she was standing on a picnic table at the park. . Other than that, no, never. Never felt the need to use one.

As a handler, I put one of my dogs on one because the helper just could not get what I wanted out of my dog. He was a real propponet of the table and considered himself to be quite an expert. I put the dog up there but the helper work sucked as bad with the dog four feet off the ground as it did with him standing on the grass, ( just as I knew it would). Took the dog back off thirty seconds later and back to my car. 

I actually understand what Mrs K is trying to say but people are choosing to be offended by. lol. Some dogs don't really "need" to be worked on a table. Trainers choose to use it...fine....but that doesn't change reality. 

As for the original question, as a helper, no, I don't work the dogs in "defense". I use many different ways to bring the dog into fight drive. When he wants to engage and fight with me, I reinforce that behavior. Doesn't matter if it is with his bark or his bite or what he is standing on. 

As a handler, more and more I am tempted to try to use anything to get the right kind of helper work. However, just using tables, or anything else for that matter, will never take the place of a really talented helper. They don''t need props or tools as much as the people who really don't know as much as they think they do, believe. 

Oh and yes, I do understand the concept of the table.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> As a training helper I have used a "table" once.....it was a Pit Bull and she was standing on a picnic table at the park. . Other than that, no, never. Never felt the need to use one.
> 
> As a handler, I put one of my dogs on one because the helper just could not get what I wanted out of my dog. He was a real propponet of the table and considered himself to be quite an expert. I put the dog up there but the helper work sucked as bad with the dog four feet off the ground as it did with him standing on the grass, ( just as I knew it would). Took the dog back off thirty seconds later and back to my car.
> 
> I actually understand what Mrs K is trying to say but people are choosing to be offended by. lol. Some dogs don't really "need" to be worked on a table. Trainers choose to use it...fine....but that doesn't change reality.
> 
> As for the original question, as a helper, no, I don't work the dogs in "defense". I use many different ways to bring the dog into fight drive. When he wants to engage and fight with me, I reinforce that behavior. Doesn't matter if it is with his bark or his bite or what he is standing on.
> 
> As a handler, more and more I am tempted to try to use anything to get the right kind of helper work. However, just using tables, or anything else for that matter, will never take the place of a really talented helper. They don''t need props or tools as much as the people who really don't know as much as they think they do, believe.
> 
> Oh and yes, I do understand the concept of the table.


I don't think I ever implied any dog needed a table... just that it can enhance table work. 

And I agree regarding the helper work.. thats why I said there is only one person I will do table work with. Someone who cannot draw aggression out of a dog on the ground, likely will not do any better on a table. Someone who can draw strong aggression on the ground, likely can draw more aggression on the table.

It is good you understand how a table *can* be used well enough to know when to pull your dog from a bad table experience... this is why I don't think most should do table work, b/c most don't know when to pull the plug... however that also applies to normal helperwork. I have several dogs at our club that take extra effort to undo and clear up BS that some other helper before I showed up put on them (from what I understand, he was of the thought that all dogs need to be back tied and learn to come through the stick). 

The first time I did any table work, strong aggression came out from the get go. It was already there to begin with... we didn't put anything there that wasn't already there, nor bring anything out that couldn't have been achieved with other means. It is just but one effective way to get to the same end goal

As a training helper I do not do table work. I'm not experienced enough being on that side of the dog with a table to experiment with someone's dog.


----------



## x11

hunterisgreat said:


> ....*I'd have liked to see his aggression without a fence in the way, and no sleeve*...


 
you would like to see that, holy sheet that would be one viral video...sounds like you got that from Herr Hitler's own GSD training manual.

thanks for not bashing my decoy - he is a reluctant participant who does not own a dog. 

horror observation - look at the angle the wedge part of the sleeve if facing...away from the dogs mouth toward the sky - my poor puppies bite development :wild::wild::wild:

strangely i only just noticed this.


----------



## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> you would like to see that, holy sheet that would be one viral video...sounds like you got that from Herr Hitler's own GSD training manual.
> 
> thanks for not bashing my decoy - he is a reluctant participant who does not own a dog.
> 
> horror observation - look at the angle the wedge part of the sleeve if facing...away from the dogs mouth toward the sky - my poor puppies bite development :wild::wild::wild:
> 
> strangely i only just noticed this.


well I'd love to see it off leash, but i believe on leash was implied lol.. good luck finding someone willing to do it off leash, and if you do promise to put me in touch with their friends... birds of a feather flock together and I'd like to get in on that lol.

That wouldn't worry me about the sleeve. A dog taught to bite and target well is unaffected by sessions of crap presentation here and there... even dogs that genetically have a solid grip still grip well after loads of horrid presentation.


----------



## Liesje

Why does doing IPO for fun meaning doing it [email protected]$$? I remember one time at our club someone brought a dog out that is not worked regularly and made a comment about how the dog could be worked casually "enough to pass" IPO1 and several people took offense to that. Either the dog has it or it doesn't. I do IPO1 for fun; I'm not a cop and I don't breed dogs or compete in Europe or sell protection dogs but I don't get the attitude that working the dog only in prey "just" for an IPO1 is safer and better (or any more fun). Why not work with the drives the dog has? To me it would be like going to flyball and saying I'm just doing it for fun so I'm not going to train my dog to actually bring the tennis ball back, even though he's a good dog and can do everything else and could be easily trained to do it and my club members don't understand why I would only train the dog halfway. It just makes no sense. Now if the dog has absolutely no defense drive, or has so much or such a low threshold that the dog is way too sharp and aggressive, then the dog just shouldn't do IPO.


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## hunterisgreat

This is just a picture, but a video of this sort of exercise is what I would like to see, sans fence. I think its clear here what drive the dog is in, and its clear she *remains* in that drive in the second pic... had she the opportunity from a snapped leash or my error, I believe its obvious she would not have run around the side and bit the sleeve. You can also see her hackled fur in both pictures

_ *** Images too big 2048 X 1365 - removed by admin - max image size 800 X 600 *** _


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## x11

hunterisgreat said:


> well I'd love to see it off leash, but i believe on leash was implied lol.. good luck finding someone willing to do it off leash, and if you do promise to put me in touch with their friends... birds of a feather flock together and I'd like to get in on that lol.


not saying my dog would bite for real or anything but when weighing up my house, land, my ability to earn an income ever again, sure destruction of my dog to prove a point versus making a great 2 minute video for internet strangers...


----------



## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> not saying my dog would bite for real or anything but when weighing up my house, land, my ability to earn an income ever again, sure destruction of my dog to prove a point versus making a great 2 minute video for internet strangers...


I *was* joking you know lol. For the record, I do not think it wise to have a dog bite an unprotected person for real within the context of training a dog


----------



## Vandal

> You can also see her hackled fur in both pictures


 .......Just trying to understand what you are saying here....you are saying the raised hackles are an indication of ....what?


----------



## x11

gotcha. has happened - people trained fighting dogs by letting them loose on neighbourhood pets and same with PPD on people - of course these people are the absolute scum of the earth. the cases have been on the news.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> .......Just trying to understand what you are saying here....you are saying the raised hackles are an indication of ....what?


Its is a physiological reflex of the sympathetic nerve system that is part of an aggressive threatening posture, both defensive and offensive. It is not a physiological response to prey stimulation.

Its an indication of defensive drive or aggression. B/c i was there and train the dog, I can tell you it is aggression, however that can't be determined from just a picture.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> gotcha. has happened - people trained fighting dogs by letting them loose on neighbourhood pets and same with PPD on people - of course these people are the absolute scum of the earth. the cases have been on the news.


Someone who does that on a person is not training a PPD. Thats not protection, thats offensive if the person is passive.


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## Vandal

So you are saying you expect to see raised hackles whenever a dog is worked in this fashion?


----------



## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> As a training helper I have used a "table" once.....it was a Pit Bull and she was standing on a picnic table at the park. . Other than that, no, never. Never felt the need to use one.
> 
> As a handler, I put one of my dogs on one because the helper just could not get what I wanted out of my dog. He was a real propponet of the table and considered himself to be quite an expert. I put the dog up there but the helper work sucked as bad with the dog four feet off the ground as it did with him standing on the grass, ( just as I knew it would). Took the dog back off thirty seconds later and back to my car.
> 
> I actually understand what Mrs K is trying to say but people are choosing to be offended by. lol. Some dogs don't really "need" to be worked on a table. Trainers choose to use it...fine....but that doesn't change reality.
> 
> As for the original question, as a helper, no, I don't work the dogs in "defense". I use many different ways to bring the dog into fight drive. When he wants to engage and fight with me, I reinforce that behavior. Doesn't matter if it is with his bark or his bite or what he is standing on.
> 
> As a handler, more and more I am tempted to try to use anything to get the right kind of helper work. However, just using tables, or anything else for that matter, will never take the place of a really talented helper. They don''t need props or tools as much as the people who really don't know as much as they think they do, believe.
> 
> Oh and yes, I do understand the concept of the table.


Thank you. 

I was hoping you'd chime in.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> So you are saying you expect to see raised hackles whenever a dog is worked in this fashion?


No, all dogs are different. Just that a dog that is hackled, is hackled as a show of aggression or defense. My male dog, for example, does not hackle readily. He postures in other ways. Very simply, the hackles indicate that aggressive response is present at that instant in time. Don't read more into it than that

If you've got a different perspective please do share. Do you believe a dog with erect hackles is in pure prey drive?


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## Vandal

Nope, no opinions, just trying to figure out what you are talking about. Think I have it figured out now.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Nope, no opinions, just trying to figure out what you are talking about. Think I have it figured out now.


It was simply that in the pictures I had just posted, Katya, who always hackles when she is working in aggression (she doesn't work in defense), was hackling for that exercise... further, that exercise was what I would like'd to have seen the dog doing in x11's video rather than with a fence involved.


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## GSDElsa

I think I probably wasn't really saying what I wanted to when I started this thread...and totally worded it wrong. I guess really what I was getting at is not working the dog in just defense, but rather just a situation where defense/fight drive/aggression gets brought out through certain exercises. Even though I said it, in hindsight straight "defense" wasn't really what I meant.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GSDElsa said:


> I think I probably wasn't really saying what I wanted to when I started this thread...and totally worded it wrong. I guess really what I was getting at is not working the dog in just defense, but rather just a situation where defense/fight drive/aggression gets brought out through certain exercises. Even though I said it, in hindsight straight "defense" wasn't really what I meant.


I assumed you meant what you just said.


----------



## abakerrr

GSDElsa said:


> I think I probably wasn't really saying what I wanted to when I started this thread...and totally worded it wrong. I guess really what I was getting at is not working the dog in just defense, but rather just a situation where defense/fight drive/aggression gets brought out through certain exercises. Even though I said it, in hindsight straight "defense" wasn't really what I meant.


Ive been following this thread given than I also work my dog in the same fashion. I guess since I have personal experience with the context of the protection work your referencing, i'm finding that what our experiences have been with this style of training is vastly different from what a lot of people think it might be and what they think the dog will/wont get out of it. The way this training works in the way i've seen it used is designed to bring out a strong, confident dog that doesn't rely on equipment to turn on a strong aggressive response. With that, I think its has a lot of value in bringing out the realness in a dog. I've personally used it to also teach my dog a sharp on and off switch with her aggression. I particularly like that it reinforces her aggression towards the person instead of equipment. Shes a sport dog and I certainly don't teach her these things to make her a PPD, particularly because I have no personal need for that. I cross train in different avenues because I like to see the strengths/ weakness of my dog by putting her in different contexts of work.

Never has my dog been whipped, beaten, or pushed past anything she can't handle in this style of work. That's my responsibility as her partner to make sure I never put her in a situation where a helpers actions are unwarranted or detrimental to her overall well-being. Matter of fact, not only does she really like this type of work away from the schutzhund field, she excels at it. I think personal opinions of this type of work relies heavily on past experiences and exposure. If you've seen it done in a correct fashion, that produced a positive outcome, you may think it has value... whereas if you've seen it done in an incorrect way, that produced a negative outcome, you may feel it doesn't have value.


----------



## Liesje

GSDElsa said:


> I think I probably wasn't really saying what I wanted to when I started this thread...and totally worded it wrong. I guess really what I was getting at is not working the dog in just defense, but rather just a situation where defense/fight drive/aggression gets brought out through certain exercises. Even though I said it, in hindsight straight "defense" wasn't really what I meant.


Yeah I took your post to refer to "aggression" in general, or working a dog beyond prey, as in he hold and bark being an aggression exercise and not just barking for a toy or tug game exercise.


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## GSDElsa

Ok, glad some people got what I was saying...it just seemed like some didn't and I do think it could have been worded differently...some of these concepts are so hard to put into words I feel like it can be hard to know that we are all talking about the same thing and are on the same page!


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## onyx'girl

So abakerrr, do you train at the same club as Justine?
Justine, I understood your meaning as well!


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## x11

good balanced post in a potentially emotional type thread where people are half guessing what each other actually mean - at least i post vids more times than not




abakerrr said:


> Ive been following this thread given than I also work my dog in the same fashion. I guess since I have personal experience with the context of the protection work your referencing, i'm finding that what our experiences have been with this style of training is vastly different from what a lot of people think it might be and what they think the dog will/wont get out of it. The way this training works in the way i've seen it used is designed to bring out a strong, confident dog that doesn't rely on equipment to turn on a strong aggressive response. With that, I think its has a lot of value in bringing out the realness in a dog. I've personally used it to also teach my dog a sharp on and off switch with her aggression. I particularly like that it reinforces her aggression towards the person instead of equipment. Shes a sport dog and I certainly don't teach her these things to make her a PPD, particularly because I have no personal need for that. I cross train in different avenues because I like to see the strengths/ weakness of my dog by putting her in different contexts of work.
> 
> Never has my dog been whipped, beaten, or pushed past anything she can't handle in this style of work. That's my responsibility as her partner to make sure I never put her in a situation where a helpers actions are unwarranted or detrimental to her overall well-being. Matter of fact, not only does she really like this type of work away from the schutzhund field, she excels at it. I think personal opinions of this type of work relies heavily on past experiences and exposure. If you've seen it done in a correct fashion, that produced a positive outcome, you may think it has value... whereas if you've seen it done in an incorrect way, that produced a negative outcome, you may feel it doesn't have value.


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## abakerrr

onyx'girl said:


> So abakerrr, do you train at the same club as Justine?


Both of them, yes.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> good balanced post in a potentially emotional type thread where people are half guessing what each other actually mean - at least i post vids more times than not


Lol I feel like I post too many already otherwise I would


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## cliffson1

There are some threads you stay out of even though you are familiar with the content...lol....Justine, I promise to send my thoughts on the video today....I just got back from out of town.


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## GSDElsa

:rofl: oh how I wish I never said that dirty "t" word and kept it more vauge lol.

Talk to you soon cliff


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## GSDElsa

x11 said:


> good balanced post in a potentially emotional type thread where people are half guessing what each other actually mean - at least i post vids more times than not



There is no way in that hot fiery place I would ever put a video of someone else working my dog on the table on an internet forum! Lol


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## holland

I guess I don't understand that-your arguement is that it is a great tool-but in order to find out more about it I need to PM someone-and you are embarrassed to put a video on-strange-and if someone has different views they are ridiculed because they obviously don't know what they are talking about


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## ayoitzrimz

it's why I stopped posting here...


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## hunterisgreat

GSDElsa said:


> There is no way in that hot fiery place I would ever put a video of someone else working my dog on the table on an internet forum! Lol


I will work my dogs on the table at home, or in public.. I've got nothing to be concerned about lol










***HUGE oversized photo removed. Please, photos must not be over 800X 600. Thank you. ADMIN. I hate to have to keep removing photos, but those are the board's rules.***


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## hunterisgreat

Sometimes, I even work Jäger through the table

***HUGE oversized photo removed. Please, photos must not be over 800X 600. Thank you. ADMIN. I hate to have to keep removing photos, but those are the board's rules.***


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## Mrs.K

ayoitzrimz said:


> it's why I stopped posting here...


It is why many have stopped or post much less than they used to.


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## hunterisgreat

holland said:


> I guess I don't understand that-your arguement is that it is a great tool-but in order to find out more about it I need to PM someone-and you are embarrassed to put a video on-strange-and if someone has different views they are ridiculed because they obviously don't know what they are talking about


Was this directed at me? It is a great tool, but a really misunderstood one, and even worse, one that many people misuse and so for some people even a mention of the word has already brought condemnation...

The reason I don't post certain videos I have, is some of the folks I train with allow me to video on the condition that it is never posted to the public. My videos are first and foremost, for me to track our progress over time, evaluate the training and my handling, and to discuss with my day to day helpers so we can leverage some of the expertise at home.

Videos that are just me working my dogs, I have no issue posting.


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## GSDElsa

holland said:


> I guess I don't understand that-your arguement is that it is a great tool-but in order to find out more about it I need to PM someone-and you are embarrassed to put a video on-strange-and if someone has different views they are ridiculed because they obviously don't know what they are talking about


It's totally inappropriate to publicly post a video of someone else working your dog in what (is obviously) a controversial topic. Sorry if you don't like the answer, but perhaps someone who works dogs on tables is willing to share their videos with you. I like to keep my training helpers and decoys on my good side and unless they are comfortable with having stuff spread all over the internet it's not getting posted. I will share videos of me working my dogs and at trials, but most definitely not of someone else working my dog on a table. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I'm not a member of the forum for someone to try and bully me into something. Embarrased? Most definitely not, but excellent passive-aggressive move there.

I have absolutely no qualms with people not wanting to do table work. I completely understand if someone has only been exposed to bad table work why they don't like it. HOWEVER, I will NOT tolerate someone telling me that me working my dog on a table is akin to dogfighting Michael Vick style and to somehow imply I am engaging in abusive behavior with my dog by doing it. Completely inappropriate and I am quite shocked that some of you are trying to play the victim in this whole charade because you didn't get a video shown to you.

This thread was not about table work and the pros and cons. It veered into that realm as people began throwing words around that implied table work involved whipping the living daylights out of a dog. Other than explaining that that is absolutley NOT what good table work is about and most certainly NOT happening with my dog when he is on the table, I really see no point in going round and round. It's like politics--I'm not going to convince a die hard Dem to vote for Romney and I'm not going to convince a die hard 'Pub to vote for Obama. I really don't even have an interest in dispelling misconceptions about table work except that in this case it involved MY dog.

As I've stated a million times in this thread...I was curious what each person did to work their dogs in defense/fight drive through stress/pressure. Lots of different ways. I did that through table work last weekend, and I was curious about how other people did it with their dogs. I was not endorsing a particular method.


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## Liesje

holland said:


> I guess I don't understand that-your arguement is that it is a great tool-but in order to find out more about it I need to PM someone-and you are embarrassed to put a video on-strange-and if someone has different views they are ridiculed because they obviously don't know what they are talking about


Let me google that for you


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## holland

Lies that was totally awesome-goggle is really your friend after all-do you like sushi?


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## t.lesniak

I stopped reading this one after page 6. "Hunter" you do not know what you are talking about; defense, hackles, muzzle, period.


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## hunterisgreat

t.lesniak said:


> I stopped reading this one after page 6. "Hunter" you do not know what you are talking about; defense, hackles, muzzle, period.


Lol. Ok. Enlighten me


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## hunterisgreat

Start with a simple one. Hackling. I said


hunterisgreat said:


> It was simply that in the pictures I had just posted, Katya, who always hackles when she is working in aggression (she doesn't work in defense), was hackling for that exercise...


School me on what is incorrect in that statement. I'm a sponge. Teach me.


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## cliffson1

Justine, sometimes it is better to not post on some topics, between the people who pass judgement with very limited exposure, and the people who don't like something and take a contrary position, and then you have the careless, that you just ignore....just send it to like minded people who can comment on what you are asking, without judging the activity. TC


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## gagsd

I just quickly re-read this thread and I see ONE person who seemed to really feel negatively about the use of tables. 

My issue is not with table work or any other kind of work. I have a problem when the message from people on this board seems to be only idiots and bad trainers use abusive methods. That is patently untrue.


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## Mrs.K

Wow... just wow... that's all I'm going to say at this point.


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## Liesje

I still think Justine asked a very good question that people aren't answering. Forget table work, it seems to me that people who like the table find ways of making it useful and people that don't can find ways of training a dog without it (I've never had any of my dogs worked on a table and have only seen a few dogs on a table in person where I was not really paying attention to them so I have no opinion).


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## lhczth

I will stay away from the table topic.  I have seen it done well and I have seen it abused. I have also seen the same work done without the table. 

To bring up aggression in our dogs we tend to work them off the field. We wil do protection in the woods, have our helpers hide and have the dogs search them out and then have to bark because they are out of reach (no bite), we will do work in the hay mow, the basement of my barn, after dark or at dusk. We will do work that also involves NO biting and just chasing the helper off of the field or away.


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## Vandal

People have argued about the table since the beginning of time and have been just as insulting to each other in the process. Kind of amazing how that aspect stays the same. 

One thing I know for sure is about the state of helpers in this country. There are very few really talented ones. I also know, not many people understand protection work, so, I start to wonder how many dogs are being worked correctly on that table. 

Because of what I just said, when I hear people extolling the virtues of one way of protection training, it makes me wonder how they know it's such a good thing. Maybe because the reactions from the dog are more pronounced on a table and they can see that more clearly than the more subtle behaviors elsewhere. IMO, "big" is not always better. Meaning, really big reactions from the dog. Might make things more clear to people who have not learned to read dogs really well yet, but what is going on with the dog 'might not' be good.

Some things should be used sparingly and only by very good trainers. Even if you have a decent helper, if you are using it all the time and talking about how good your dog is when he is in that situation, I again, wonder what is really going on. Not saying the people here are doing that but it is something to think about if you are. I have watched people get way too excited about one aspect of training, listen to them saying how great it is and how much they use it ...and then I see their dogs....What is good once in a while can be very bad when used too much.

Also, as for "aggression work". I think some people are not understanding at what point pressure becomes defense work. You pressure the dog all the time or too strongly, or from a distance that is way too close, and you start to create a reactive dog. The work can start one way and quickly become defense work. I'm not going to get into the behaviors touted as positives or indications of what drive a dog is working in, because I don't have time or interest in arguing. I am just saying, people should think hard about the methods they use, how much of any method is too much, or whether it will get them to their goal. 

Last, prey work is a very big part of protection training and is essential if you are using pressure. The amount of pressure people are claiming they present to their dog and then saying the dog only sees a tiny bit of prey work....if it is really the case.....will almost always result in problems. Prey work is not play and there is a very fine line between pressure and avoidance. Avoidance is not always about letting go and running away either. It presents itself in many different forms.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> I will stay away from the table topic.  I have seen it done well and I have seen it abused. I have also seen the same work done without the table.
> 
> To bring up aggression in our dogs we tend to work them off the field. We wil do protection in the woods, have our helpers hide and have the dogs search them out and then have to bark because they are out of reach (no bite), we will do work in the hay mow, the basement of my barn, after dark or at dusk. We will do work that also involves NO biting and just chasing the helper off of the field or away.


As I don't have a table, nor actually do the tablework myself, this is also a main way we work aggression at home


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> People have argued about the table since the beginning of time and have been just as insulting to each other in the process. Kind of amazing how that aspect stays the same.
> 
> One thing I know for sure is about the state of helpers in this country. There are very few really talented ones. I also know, not many people understand protection work, so, I start to wonder how many dogs are being worked correctly on that table.
> 
> Because of what I just said, when I hear people extolling the virtues of one way of protection training, it makes me wonder how they know it's such a good thing. Maybe because the reactions from the dog are more pronounced on a table and they can see that more clearly than the more subtle behaviors elsewhere. IMO, "big" is not always better. Meaning, really big reactions from the dog. Might make things more clear to people who have not learned to read dogs really well yet, but what is going on with the dog 'might not' be good.
> 
> Some things should be used sparingly and only by very good trainers. Even if you have a decent helper, if you are using it all the time and talking about how good your dog is when he is in that situation, I again, wonder what is really going on. Not saying the people here are doing that but it is something to think about if you are. I have watched people get way too excited about one aspect of training, listen to them saying how great it is and how much they use it ...and then I see their dogs....What is good once in a while can be very bad when used too much.
> 
> Also, as for "aggression work". I think some people are not understanding at what point pressure becomes defense work. You pressure the dog all the time or too strongly, or from a distance that is way too close, and you start to create a reactive dog. The work can start one way and quickly become defense work. I'm not going to get into the behaviors touted as positives or indications of what drive a dog is working in, because I don't have time or interest in arguing. I am just saying, people should think hard about the methods they use, how much of any method is too much, or whether it will get them to their goal.
> 
> *Last, prey work is a very big part of protection training and is essential if you are using pressure. The amount of pressure people are claiming they present to their dog and then saying the dog only sees a tiny bit of prey work....if it is really the case.....will almost always result in problems. Prey work is not play and there is a very fine line between pressure and avoidance. Avoidance is not always about letting go and running away either. It presents itself in many different forms.*


Again, thank you!
Especially the bolded part.


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## Liesje

Maybe part of it is people talk about "all prey work" and are referring to ball shooters in the blind, playing tug with the happy helper and his little bite pillow and that sort of thing. I guess "play work" is a better term. I can't stand that stuff, it drives me nuts. I like prey as in tracking with the eyes, chasing, biting, bringing down.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> People have argued about the table since the beginning of time and have been just as insulting to each other in the process. Kind of amazing how that aspect stays the same.
> 
> One thing I know for sure is about the state of helpers in this country. There are very few really talented ones. I also know, not many people understand protection work, so, I start to wonder how many dogs are being worked correctly on that table.
> 
> Because of what I just said, when I hear people extolling the virtues of one way of protection training, it makes me wonder how they know it's such a good thing. Maybe because the reactions from the dog are more pronounced on a table and they can see that more clearly than the more subtle behaviors elsewhere. IMO, "big" is not always better. Meaning, really big reactions from the dog. Might make things more clear to people who have not learned to read dogs really well yet, but what is going on with the dog 'might not' be good.
> 
> Some things should be used sparingly and only by very good trainers. Even if you have a decent helper, if you are using it all the time and talking about how good your dog is when he is in that situation, I again, wonder what is really going on. Not saying the people here are doing that but it is something to think about if you are. I have watched people get way too excited about one aspect of training, listen to them saying how great it is and how much they use it ...and then I see their dogs....What is good once in a while can be very bad when used too much.
> 
> Also, as for "aggression work". I think some people are not understanding at what point pressure becomes defense work. You pressure the dog all the time or too strongly, or from a distance that is way too close, and you start to create a reactive dog. The work can start one way and quickly become defense work. I'm not going to get into the behaviors touted as positives or indications of what drive a dog is working in, because I don't have time or interest in arguing. I am just saying, people should think hard about the methods they use, how much of any method is too much, or whether it will get them to their goal.
> 
> Last, prey work is a very big part of protection training and is essential if you are using pressure. The amount of pressure people are claiming they present to their dog and then saying the dog only sees a tiny bit of prey work....if it is really the case.....will almost always result in problems. Prey work is not play and there is a very fine line between pressure and avoidance. Avoidance is not always about letting go and running away either. It presents itself in many different forms.


I agree with everything you've said here. I don't know if I've given the impression our training is like some of the pitfalls or no no's you mentioned above, but incase I did, for clarity it is not. I still work dogs in prey a lot. We have both prey after aggression within one exercise, and we have "all prey" days as well. 

There is no arguing from me  Only constructive debate... thats how I learn. If a position cannot stand up to scrutiny and methodical analysis (anyone's position), its probably not a position I can knowingly adopt.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Maybe part of it is people talk about "all prey work" and are referring to ball shooters in the blind, playing tug with the happy helper and his little bite pillow and that sort of thing. I guess "play work" is a better term. I can't stand that stuff, it drives me nuts. I like prey as in tracking with the eyes, chasing, biting, bringing down.


Well, to clarify further, when I said all prey, I meant the picture of the "finished dog". Certainly all dogs have tons of prey work over the course of time, particularly when young


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Again, thank you!
> Especially the bolded part.


But notice how she didn't say "all prey" either 

I think we can all agree (or should agree) that it's about an overall balance.....bringing in all drives, not just ones we want to use.


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## Jack's Dad

cliffson1 said:


> Justine, sometimes it is better to not post on some topics, between the people who pass judgement with very limited exposure, and the people who don't like something and take a contrary position, and then you have the careless, that you just ignore....just send it to like minded people who can comment on what you are asking, without judging the activity. TC


I usually like your posts Cliff but preaching to the choir in a closed room doesn't really help much.

I don't do any of this work so can not comment but reading these threads can help some of us learn more about our chosen breed.

People not understanding or agreeing is a natural part of this process.

I can guarantee you that these conversations are tame compared to horse people.


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## gagsd

Liesje said:


> Maybe part of it is people talk about "all prey work" and are referring to ball shooters in the blind, playing tug with the happy helper and his little bite pillow and that sort of thing. I guess "play work" is a better term. I can't stand that stuff, it drives me nuts. I like prey as in tracking with the eyes, chasing, biting, bringing down.


This. Some of the "prey" work I have seen, is pretty "serious."


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## GSDElsa

lhczth said:


> To bring up aggression in our dogs we tend to work them off the field. We wil do protection in the woods, have our helpers hide and have the dogs search them out and then have to bark because they are out of reach (no bite),


Our club (since we use the table about once a year  ) just did a similar thing a few weekends ago to "mix things up." Great example! Brings out the good side of the dogs and the handlers for having a little "weee!!" adventure.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> But notice how she didn't say "all prey" either
> 
> I think we can all agree (or should agree) that it's about an overall balance.....bringing in all drives, not just ones we want to use.


I know. And as I said earlier, I prefer to work in prey because right now, she's a lot of dog to handle. She's fun, but she's a lot of dog and first, I need to learn the basics. We are at the very beginning and there is simply no need to work in defense at all. Not at this point. Once we progress and grow together, than we can start thinking about the rest. 

That's not handling a dog halfway, it's about knowing your limitations and I know mine. You and me both have dogs that can take us places and I am almost certain that you will go places, I won't because I have limited resources and everybody knows it, which is why I've got so many offers for Nala. They know that I won't take her where she could go and I know it too but she ain't for sale because I made a promise to Heinz (some may know him, he was the previous handler from Asko vom Siegelgrund and Nala's owner, he also was a well known Judge) and I intend to keep it. That is why he sold her to me and not to a Sport Handler because he knew the difference it makes in her lifestyle. You and I both have dogs that "have it". I told you from the very beginning that Medo is an exceptional dog and you are one heck of a talented handler. 

I can acknowledge something on a professional basis when I see it. You have talent, the dog, the trainer, everything you need to excel at what you do. It was a huge loss for SAR and a gain for your Club because you've got what it takes and so has your dog.


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## Liesje

lhczth said:


> To bring up aggression in our dogs we tend to work them off the field. We wil do protection in the woods, have our helpers hide and have the dogs search them out and then have to bark because they are out of reach (no bite), we will do work in the hay mow, the basement of my barn, after dark or at dusk. We will do work that also involves NO biting and just chasing the helper off of the field or away.


When Sean was in that tree on Saturday I want to sneak my dog out and let him go so bad!!! One of my favorite bitework sessions with Nikon (anywhere, ever) was when they did the hay wrestling in the barn.


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## Mrs.K

That is how the police in Germany tested our dogs. They were tied up in the woods, left alone and then the helper went in to see how they react. Once they passed that, the handler took the dog for a test week to evaluate the dog further. I've seen a couple of those and it's always fun to see how the dog reacts.


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## Vandal

> But notice how she didn't say "all prey" either


I think " all prey" is relative, in that the kind of dog you are working, matters quite a bit. Prey work was introduced when the dogs were a heck of alot more serious, due to genetics and to a lesser degree, how they were trained. It was used to relieve the pressure and to channel the aggression into the bite. The dog learned they could get calmness in the bite. 

I have a female who is really serious. No helper will be needing to get right on top of us to get aggression from her, that's for sure. I don't have super talented helpers but I tell the one who does know some things, to stand still, let her bark and then do nothing but prey attractions before the bite is offered. No one watching that dog has considered for one minute that she was an "all prey" dog, that's for sure. In the beginning, when she was much younger, she would bite what was offered. Amazing how some people offer their body more than the sleeve when they are in front of dogs like her but some of them did. lol.
Anyway, while not "all prey", most of it is and no matter how much a helper swings that sleeve around, she will never view the work differently. She will channel the aggression into the bite/sleeve but the helper will not be her playmate and if there is no sleeve there, she will bite him.... if he so desires.  

There are now dogs who will change and it becomes all about the sleeve and not at all about the man. They are lacking the heart and courage to take a man on if you ask me. This is why some are constantly trying to pressure their dogs in order to "fix" that. Many times you can't. You can make the dog more serious but they will never view it like the female I just talked about. It is not in their genetics.

Oddly, my dog would be the kind that SchH people might think there is something "wrong" with, because she won't play with them. She means it, its the social aggression we talked about in the other thread, but is again, something most people don't understand anymore. It is active aggression that does not require big threatening actions from the helper. Once she figured out what it was about, she sees him and it's on. She doesn't need running, whip popping or someone right there with a claw shaped hand....she loads when she sees him or suspects that he is nearby.


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## GSDElsa

Sandra-keep it up with nala and keep looking to expand your horizons. She is a cute little gal. I dont think pushing her every once in awhile is going to change that sweet temperment! She is and will always be a stable, social, well adjusted dog even if you woek her in big bad dog mode every once in awhile!


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## robk

We have a dog at our club that is 100% defense. Way too serious all the time. One of those "sleeve not required" type dogs. Therefore he only gets a bite in prey.

He is actually quite commical to watch because he has this frumpy "all business" look to him thats amusing in a wierd sort of way.


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## x11

this topic is sure to get some hackles up.....haw, haw...couldn't resist


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## Vandal

Just keep in mind that "all defense" is the opposite of active aggression. If the dog is "all defense", he will need to be "pushed" to bite. That kind of dog will not be successful in SchH.


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## hunterisgreat

robk said:


> We have a dog at our club that is 100% defense. Way too serious all the time. One of those "sleeve not required" type dogs. Therefore he only gets a bite in prey.
> 
> He is actually quite commical to watch because he has this frumpy "all business" look to him thats amusing in a wierd sort of way.


100% defense, as in "defensive", as opposed to aggression or "offensive" defense... people often lump the two together and so I must ask.

We have a dog that will go into defense (the bad kind) rather easily, that we use different means to get them back into prey so they can actually learn.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> Just keep in mind that "all defense" is the opposite of active aggression. If the dog is "all defense", he will need to be "pushed" to bite. That kind of dog will not be successful in SchH.


you beat me to it.


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## robk

hunterisgreat said:


> 100% defense, as in "defensive", as opposed to aggression or "offensive" defense... people often lump the two together and so I must ask.
> 
> We have a dog that will go into defense (the bad kind) rather easily, that we use different means to get them back into prey so they can actually learn.


Well, I am not really sure. He just growls. Never barks. Kind of sounds like a werewolf. Doesnt' care if there is a sleeve or not. Other club members state that he is over the top in defense. Maybe it is aggression. Maybe it is just a grumpy personality. He acts like he dosent really care about anything but he is happy to bite you if you want him too.


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## hunterisgreat

This dog gets defensive. In the pic she doesn't look like she really has any intention of biting that sleeve. (and she didn't bite the sleeve)


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## hunterisgreat

robk said:


> Well, I am not really sure. He just growls. Never barks. Kind of sounds like a werewolf. Doesnt' care if there is a sleeve or not. Other club members state that he is over the top in defense. Maybe it is aggression. Maybe it is just a grumpy personality. He acts like he dosent really care about anything but he is happy to bite you if you want him too.


Couldn't tell you from that alone. Could be either


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## robk

What is funny is that he will go through the routine with very little enthusiasm. All business. Will bite. Will do his "growl and hold". When the sleeve is slipped he will cary it straight back to the handler and drop it at his feet like "here you go, is this what you wanted?" Thats why we all chuckle at him when he is on the field.


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## Liesje

Vandal said:


> Just keep in mind that "all defense" is the opposite of active aggression. If the dog is "all defense", he will need to be "pushed" to bite. That kind of dog will not be successful in SchH.


We had a dog like this with a group I used to train with (at least I think he was like this). The only way to get the dog to work was to get on him, and he was kind of a twitchy, spooky dog regardless (he could be social and would not explode on you if you were just being nice and walked by, I did some playing around with him getting him ready to be handled for a show, but not a dog I personally trust or ever think would be fun to train in any form of protection and my dog has his share of issues too). He just took bitework so seriously it was sad, and by the time the helper could get a reaction from him the dog was dancing the line of want-to-bite or piss on himself and bolt. Eventually they got told not to come back, it was just cruel to the dog.


----------



## hunterisgreat

robk said:


> What is funny is that he will go through the routine with very little enthusiasm. All business. Will bite. Will do his "growl and hold". When the sleeve is slipped he will cary it straight back to the handler and drop it at his feet like "here you go, is this what you wanted?" Thats why we all chuckle at him when he is on the field.


In my experience, most of our truly defensive dogs won't carry the sleeve if I slip it. Many of them I slip on lead or I slip and prepare for the dog to come back at me. 

When I was having some issues in bitework where my male was getting a defensive element expressing itself in his bitework (b/c of conflict with me, and handling errors of mine, and a general lack of folks who understood or knew how to work DDR/Czech/Slovak style dogs), he would carry the sleeve a few feet and spit it but not go back to the helper. Now that we've sorted out our issues, he will carry the sleeve for the duration, even go pee & poo while holding it, then go get in the truck with it.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> We had a dog like this with a group I used to train with (at least I think he was like this). The only way to get the dog to work was to get on him, and he was kind of a twitchy, spooky dog regardless (he could be social and would not explode on you if you were just being nice and walked by, but not a dog I personally trust). He just took bitework so seriously it was sad, and by the time the helper could get a reaction from him the dog was dancing the line of want-to-bite or piss on himself and bolt. Eventually they got told not to come back, it was just cruel to the dog.


A feeling that "this isn't a dog I'm comfortable with my back to" (when you are just a spectator) is a strong indicator that dog was working in defense (the bad kind). The highly aggressive dogs that you watch and think "wow.. that dog is intense", don't give me the vibe of "don't turn my back or move quickly around him"


----------



## x11

so what is aggression that is not a manifestation of defence or loaded in prey - i'm getting lost.


----------



## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> A feeling that "this isn't a dog I'm comfortable with my back to" (when you are just a spectator) is a strong indicator that dog was working in defense (the bad kind). The highly aggressive dogs that you watch and think "wow.. that dog is intense", don't give me the vibe of "don't turn my back or move quickly around him"


Well as a spectator I wasn't scared of him (as I said I handled him for practice show stuff, and come to think of it I've handled him for bitework before too when the owner was injured) and it took a lot of provocation from the helper to get him to bite but the *only* way to get a biting reaction was defense and it was not pretty, and not powerful either (like "leave me the eff alone *snap snap*" stuff). He was not intense at all, just didn't like being picked on and that's how he viewed bitework I guess, getting picked on and bullied until he either snapped back (literally) or tried to leave the field. If he was shown prey stuff or suspicion stuff he would just stand there whereas the other dogs, even the ones not very strong would be like "oh ok let's DO this!"


----------



## robk

That's not what this do I am talking about is like. He is just like an old ill tempered Cop who is just carrying out orders hoping to retire soon and collect his pension.


----------



## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> so what is aggression that is not a manifestation of defence or loaded in prey - i'm getting lost.


Lump it all into defensive drive, or break it down as far as you like in order for it to make sense and be effective for you. One study I read broke aggressive behavior into the following:

Fear induced, Dominance, Protective, Possessive, Redirected, Play, Pain induced, Maternal, Intramale/Intrafemale, and Punishment induced aggression

If looking at it through that lense helps you, then thats the right way to classify it.. you just must qualify what you mean when discussing the topic of aggression with others so communication remains effective. At the end of the day, it is an ontological exercise... these things rarely fit perfectly into our little boxes we make for them.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Well as a spectator I wasn't scared of him (as I said I handled him for practice show stuff, and come to think of it I've handled him for bitework before too when the owner was injured) and it took a lot of provocation from the helper to get him to bite but the *only* way to get a biting reaction was defense and it was not pretty, and not powerful either (like "leave me the eff alone *snap snap*" stuff). He was not intense at all, just didn't like being picked on and that's how he viewed bitework I guess, getting picked on and bullied until he either snapped back (literally) or tried to leave the field. If he was shown prey stuff or suspicion stuff he would just stand there whereas the other dogs, even the ones not very strong would be like "oh ok let's DO this!"


Well personal familiarity with the dog ruins the "vibe" thing lol. Perhaps another way to "feel out the dog" is if he gives you an impression he really just doesn't want to be there, I'd say he's very possibly working in primarily defense.


----------



## GSDElsa

Liesje said:


> Well as a spectator I wasn't scared of him (as I said I handled him for practice show stuff, and come to think of it I've handled him for bitework before too when the owner was injured) and it took a lot of provocation from the helper to get him to bite but the *only* way to get a biting reaction was defense and it was not pretty, and not powerful either (like "leave me the eff alone *snap snap*" stuff). He was not intense at all, just didn't like being picked on and that's how he viewed bitework I guess, getting picked on and bullied until he either snapped back (literally) or tried to leave the field. If he was shown prey stuff or suspicion stuff he would just stand there whereas the other dogs, even the ones not very strong would be like "oh ok let's DO this!"


Yikes, that totally doesn't sound like fun. I'm glad your club stepped up and asked that this dog not work anymore. Doesn't sound like fun for anyone involved! Especially the dog!


----------



## GSDElsa

Vandal said:


> There are now dogs who will change and it becomes all about the sleeve and not at all about the man. They are lacking the heart and courage to take a man on if you ask me. This is why some are constantly trying to pressure their dogs in order to "fix" that. Many times you can't. You can make the dog more serious but they will never view it like the female I just talked about. It is not in their genetics.


This is exactly the type of dog I had in mind when I started this thread!


----------



## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> Well personal familiarity with the dog ruins the "vibe" thing lol. Perhaps another way to "feel out the dog" is if he gives you an impression he really just doesn't want to be there, I'd say he's very possibly working in primarily defense.


Well you can keep bringing it up but you're missing the point I was making. The dog *was* working primarily in defense (he didn't seem to have any prey drive, any raw aggression, any good suspicion, any desire to step in and control the situation and the fight), but I didn't say that he'd bite a random person for walking past. When I said I don't trust the dog I mean I don't trust the dog to do protection because he would only start reacting when physically provoked and I doubt would ever protect his handler in any situation, he would protect his own butt or just leave. It's not that I don't trust him to not snap at random people outside of the context of bitework, that is not what I meant.


----------



## x11

i can go with that, apparently some dog cultures do not even have words for some of the "primary" drives we use let alone all the sub-categories of those drives.



hunterisgreat said:


> Lump it all into defensive drive, or break it down as far as you like in order for it to make sense and be effective for you. One study I read broke aggressive behavior into the following:
> 
> Fear induced, Dominance, Protective, Possessive, Redirected, Play, Pain induced, Maternal, Intramale/Intrafemale, and Punishment induced aggression
> 
> If looking at it through that lense helps you, then thats the right way to classify it.. you just must qualify what you mean when discussing the topic of aggression with others so communication remains effective. At the end of the day, it is an ontological exercise... these things rarely fit perfectly into our little boxes we make for them.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Well you can keep bringing it up but you're missing the point I was making. The dog *was* working primarily in defense (he didn't seem to have any prey drive, any raw aggression, any good suspicion, any desire to step in and control the situation and the fight), but I didn't say that he'd bite a random person for walking past. When I said I don't trust the dog I mean I don't trust the dog to do protection because he would only start reacting when physically provoked and I doubt would ever protect his handler in any situation, he would protect his own butt or just leave. It's not that I don't trust him to not snap at random people outside of the context of bitework, that is not what I meant.


I was just talking about a general case. Not disputing anything. I was trying to come up with a way that people might better understand drives. Just thinking out loud


----------



## Liesje

Fair enough, I just don't want to start talking about a dog I don't own and having people saying the dog is a total flake and bites at random. Not a dog I'd own or work, but that's not the case. It is probably a very nice pet dog and probably fine for other all-breed type sports. I am simply agreeing with Anne that this dog *only* worked in defense, as a reaction, and it was not pretty, and the dog was a total washout at IPO (there was no way this dog would ever be able to get sent into a blind to guard or anything like that).


----------



## codmaster

It almost appears that there as many definitions of "Drives" as there are folks trying to explain why a dog does something or acts the way they do.

Some folks (PO advocates in my OB club) explain most doggy behavior as "fear" or "anxious" or something like that.

Others can define 20 (it seems) different "drives" in a dog!

If a stranger walks toward a dog who is tied to a stump, and the dog acts like he wants to kill him/her - barking and growling and lunging at the end of the leash - would that be "prey", "defense", "aggression", "territorial", "pack" or some other "drive"?

Would the "drive" defiition change if the dogs owner were laying next to the stump unconcious?

How about if the dog were eating its meal out of a bowl when the stranger came toward it?

How about if the stranger acted "wierd", "threatening" (whacking his own leg with the stick, for example)?

Would any of these differences redefine which "drive" the dog was acting in?

How about a female dog with its puppies next to it? How about just a group of little puppies next to it that were not its own puppies?

And the dog reacted as described in the first paragraph?

And finally, can a dog act out of multiple drives at the same time?


As you can see I am mighty confused by all that I have read and talked to people about different "drives" being the basis behind all of our dogs behavior.

Can a dog learn behavior so well that it "thinks" and acts accordingly rather than having it's behavior causedby "drives"?


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I think " all prey" is relative, in that the kind of dog you are working, matters quite a bit. Prey work was introduced when the dogs were a heck of alot more serious, due to genetics and to a lesser degree, how they were trained. It was used to relieve the pressure and to channel the aggression into the bite. The dog learned they could get calmness in the bite.
> 
> I have a female who is really serious. No helper will be needing to get right on top of us to get aggression from her, that's for sure. I don't have super talented helpers but I tell the one who does know some things, to stand still, let her bark and then do nothing but prey attractions before the bite is offered. No one watching that dog has considered for one minute that she was an "all prey" dog, that's for sure. In the beginning, when she was much younger, she would bite what was offered. Amazing how some people offer their body more than the sleeve when they are in front of dogs like her but some of them did. lol.
> Anyway, while not "all prey", most of it is and no matter how much a helper swings that sleeve around, she will never view the work differently. She will channel the aggression into the bite/sleeve but the helper will not be her playmate and if there is no sleeve there, she will bite him.... if he so desires.
> 
> There are now dogs who will change and it becomes all about the sleeve and not at all about the man. They are lacking the heart and courage to take a man on if you ask me. This is why some are constantly trying to pressure their dogs in order to "fix" that. Many times you can't. You can make the dog more serious but they will never view it like the female I just talked about. It is not in their genetics.
> 
> Oddly, my dog would be the kind that SchH people might think there is something "wrong" with, because she won't play with them. She means it, its the social aggression we talked about in the other thread, but is again, something most people don't understand anymore. It is active aggression that does not require big threatening actions from the helper. Once she figured out what it was about, she sees him and it's on. She doesn't need running, whip popping or someone right there with a claw shaped hand....she loads when she sees him or suspects that he is nearby.


My male is the same way. He is aggressive by default. He will be in primarily prey when working on me, and I have a few club members I work him on that I only do prey work on bc they give affection off the field which drops his aggression anyway, and I need to work in prey sometimes to teach new things

To be fair, there are also dogs fixated on objects bc of training error


----------



## x11

what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.


Was it a two hump or one hump camel? Did the lama spit? If a lama spit at me I'd run or at least put some distance between us


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## lhczth

x11 said:


> what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.


All animals, man included, will come upon something that they will want to run from. A species would not survive if there was no fear at all. What brings about this reaction will depend on the individual, but it is there in us all.


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## x11

agreed so does that make some apparently strong nerve dogs just well pre-conditioned and socialised dogs with loads of exposure to bizzare stimulus and conversely some apparently weak nerve dogs just dogs that have been deprived an opportunitty to overcome perceived threatening stimulus. eg the "brave" dogs that run thru smoke, sirens, gunfire (sounds) at men in gorilla suits waving armsfull of streamers etc. if nerve were intrinsically genetic then environmental conditioning training would make no difference would it not?


----------



## Liesje

I agree and disagree. I think nerve IS genetic, but it's not like a dog comes out of the womb and plops on one spot in the "nerve" spectrum and that's it, end of story. I think a dog is genetically born with a point at each end of where they *might* end up on that spectrum, and the training and socialization that actually happens will narrow down where that dog ends up within the limits of the nerve he was born with, but training and socialization cannot push a dog outside of where it might fall based on genetics. Is that fair?

I don't really discount a dog's nerves just based on a one-time, narrow example though, I think that's a bit unfair but if you can observe the dog repeatedly (or obviously if you own the dog) you can get a good sense of your dog's temperament. For example my dog growled and barked at a horse the first time he saw one. But now he has seen them many times and pays them no attention. Does that mean he has terrible nerves? I don't think so, but it does offer another example of how he's alert to his surroundings and a fairly serious dog. I live in the city and the sorts of things my dogs encounter daily I often see my training acquaintances having to proof their dogs on before BH temperament tests and stuff like that.


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## lhczth

I am not sure if you are actually asking a question or just making a statement. 

IMO nerves are genetic. You will never create courage (a human trait) in a weak nerved dog just like there are people who fall apart under pressure even with extensive amounts of training.


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## onyx'girl

x11 said:


> agreed so does that make some apparently strong nerve dogs just well pre-conditioned and socialised dogs with loads of exposure to bizzare stimulus and conversely some apparently weak nerve dogs just dogs that have been deprived an opportunitty to overcome perceived threatening stimulus. eg the "brave" dogs that run thru smoke, sirens, gunfire (sounds) at men in gorilla suits waving armsfull of streamers etc.* if nerve were intrinsically genetic then environmental conditioning training would make no difference would it not?*


Working a dog in different scenarios teaches the handler more about the dog. Because anything can happen and knowing as much as possible going into an unknown experience helps both handler and dog.
Water exercises as an example. 
This thread posted last night shows we don't know what we don't know: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...bout-beau-his-sound-progress.html#post2646003
Better to hopefully know a bit more before being tested and that can't happen unless we train for it.


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## x11

ok thanks, then if you consider schutshund a licence for breed worthiness as i understand the original intention and not a sport for something to do with yr dog should the trial field be so dam predictable - nerve is genetic, schutshund tests genetics primarily (+training) so should it not follow that the traditionaltest of gsd "breeding" worthiness should include some curve-balls like a rabbit running across the field in obed, or a female heat scent across a track or......

not bagging schuts - i admire it, just trying to make sense of things.


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## onyx'girl

x11 said:


> ok thanks, then if you consider schutshund a licence for breed worthiness as i understand the original intention and not a sport for something to do with yr dog should the trial field be so dam predictable - nerve is genetic, schutshund tests genetics primarily (+training) so should it not follow that the traditionaltest of gsd "breeding" worthiness should include some curve-balls *like a rabbit running across the field in obed, or a female heat scent across a track or*......
> 
> not bagging schuts - i admire it, just trying to make sense of things.


It happens often, or a cat can be lingering on the edge of the field(in training as well), have you been to a trial?


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## lhczth

SchutZhund.


----------



## x11

have to admit that i have not sat thru all three phases for the duration of a complete trial. have only spectated to see specific dogs on different occasions at different stages and phases. did see a dobe break a long down stay to chase a cat. the handler cried, some spectators went after the dog as a major highway was nearby. dog and cat were fine, handler wasn't. would it make a difference if i hadn't? not tryingto be argumentative just askin questions.


----------



## GSDElsa

x11 said:


> what about the accomplished bite-work dog that sees/smells its first camel approaching it (lol) and hits the end of the leash trying to get out of dodge and snarls at the suicidal handler who just wants to hang out with the nice friendly lama - is that dog a defensive nerve bag POS.


Sorry, this made me laugh! I train at a French Ring club sometimes that doubles as an alpaca farm right off a busy road. If I'm running late and training has already started it's QUITE the site to see dogs doing suit work and all the alpacas lined up watching


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## onyx'girl

There was an SDA trial with goats right along the side of the field...they were quite a distraction because they were climbing the fence and braying(or whatever goats do) for attention.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> I am not sure if you are actually asking a question or just making a statement.
> 
> IMO nerves are genetic. You will never create courage (a human trait) in a weak nerved dog just like there are people who fall apart under pressure even with extensive amounts of training.


You contradict yourself. Courage is not a human trait. Courage is a word used to describe the genetic nerve of a human, nothing more. As you pointed out, certain people are destined to fall apart under pressure.


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> ok thanks, then if you consider schutshund a licence for breed worthiness as i understand the original intention and not a sport for something to do with yr dog should the trial field be so dam predictable - nerve is genetic, schutshund tests genetics primarily (+training) so should it not follow that the traditionaltest of gsd "breeding" worthiness should include some curve-balls like a rabbit running across the field in obed, or a female heat scent across a track or......
> 
> not bagging schuts - i admire it, just trying to make sense of things.


It should test nerve..

and a bitch pissed 3 feet off my track at my last trial. My male let me know. Disaster


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## hunterisgreat

Our old field was the grazing pasture for our presidents herd of goats and sheep... A) when they got loose it was quite interesting, and the dogs seem to favor goat turds over balls or treats


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## x11

eh!!???




hunterisgreat said:


> "...*Courage is not a human trait*. *Courage* *is a word used to describe the genetic nerve of a human*....


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## onyx'girl

I had a bull come out to see Karlo when I was tracking one day... I train for the unknown distractions whether I want to or not!


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## codmaster

lhczth said:


> All animals, man included, will come upon something that they will want to run from. A species would not survive if there was no fear at all. What brings about this reaction will depend on the individual, but it is there in us all.


 
Is it courage or something else that makes a dog challenge a full grown bull or sends a human charging into gunfire to save someone else?

Is courage "the lack of fear" or something that lets a dog or person overcome it?


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## onyx'girl

courage is fear that has said its prayers


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Is it courage or something else that makes a dog challenge a full grown bull or sends a human charging into gunfire to save someone else?
> 
> Is courage "the lack of fear" or something that lets a dog or person overcome it?


It's not the lack of fear. It is the power to overcome it. Here is a nice article about it. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...courage-existential-lessons-the-cowardly-lion


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> Is it courage or something else that makes a dog challenge a full grown bull or sends a human charging into gunfire to save someone else?
> 
> Is courage "the lack of fear" or something that lets a dog or person overcome it?


Courage is absolutely not a lack of fear. It is a soundness when one is under a great deal of fear


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> courage is fear that has said its prayers


 
*Heh! Heh!*


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## Liesje

onyx'girl said:


> It happens often, or a cat can be lingering on the edge of the field(in training as well), have you been to a trial?


Oh no, the cat again! LOL we were just talking about this at the seminar.

All of these have happened to me/my dog in trial/show/run:
- cat on the field during my obedience
- goats about 20 feet away running zoomies and humping each other
- 4 inches of standing water on the field (had to do a cram session convincing the dog she *could* sit and down in standing water)
- dog up in the long down
- female in standing heat in front of my dog
- judge stopping my performance to play-criticize me as if I wasn't nervous enough already
- dog run to judge instead of helper
- judge having a medical emergency (heart attack?)

You just never know....


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Oh no, the cat again! LOL we were just talking about this at the seminar.
> 
> All of these have happened to me/my dog in trial/show/run:
> - cat on the field during my obedience
> - goats about 20 feet away running zoomies and humping each other
> - 4 inches of standing water on the field (had to do a cram session convincing the dog she *could* sit and down in standing water)
> - dog up in the long down
> - female in standing heat in front of my dog
> - judge stopping my performance to play-criticize me as if I wasn't nervous enough already
> - dog run to judge instead of helper
> - judge having a medical emergency (heart attack?)
> 
> You just never know....


Thought you said zombies when I first read that lol... Did just watch the walking dead so they're on my mind


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## Liesje

LOL at this point I would no longer be surprised.


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## onyx'girl

and the dog that left the group during the BH test to go pee on the judges leg....that was epic.


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## Liesje

Poor judge, he got peed on, nearly guarded (by my dog), and the dog brought him the dumbbell remember?


----------



## RocketDog

Liesje said:


> Oh no, the cat again! LOL we were just talking about this at the seminar.
> 
> All of these have happened to me/my dog in trial/show/run:
> - cat on the field during my obedience
> - goats about 20 feet away running zoomies and humping each other
> - 4 inches of standing water on the field (had to do a cram session convincing the dog she *could* sit and down in standing water)
> - dog up in the long down
> - female in standing heat in front of my dog
> - judge stopping my performance to play-criticize me as if I wasn't nervous enough already
> - dog run to judge instead of helper
> - judge having a medical emergency (heart attack?)
> 
> You just never know....


This list made me LOL. Well, except for the last one. But then yours and Jane's comments made me laugh again.


----------



## Catu

I had a filly coming to sniff my dog at tracking, with her nervous mother behind. Diabla and filly engaged in play and grooming and it was so cute to see that I had to stop tracking for pictures. A stallion approached Akela and us at tracking too... that one wasn't that cute...

And for funny moments at trial I've had the dog in the long down flying across the field running between my dog and me on the sit in motion and the dog that found a forgotten toy on the end of the field during the equipment test the day before trial and wanting to do a send away to that spot both in the recall and before checking the blinds.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Oh no, the cat again! LOL we were just talking about this at the seminar.
> 
> All of these have happened to me/my dog in trial/show/run:
> - cat on the field during my obedience
> - goats about 20 feet away running zoomies and humping each other
> - 4 inches of standing water on the field (had to do a cram session convincing the dog she *could* sit and down in standing water)
> - dog up in the long down
> - female in standing heat in front of my dog
> - judge stopping my performance to play-criticize me as if I wasn't nervous enough already
> - dog run to judge instead of helper
> - judge having a medical emergency (heart attack?)
> 
> You just never know....


The day befor jagers BH we were practicing and jäger was a bit antsy in the long down. He stayed down and arched his back weird so I went over thinking he was getting ready to puke. He was pooping, while staying down. I praised him lol


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## lhczth

Hunter, at the Nationals in, I think, 2006 a dog pooped, turned around, ate the poop and then turned back around into the correct position. The audience was dying with laughter (it was gross and funny), but the handler had NO idea what had happened until the judge commented in the critique.


----------



## robk

lhczth said:


> Hunter, at the Nationals in, I think, 2006 a dog pooped, turned around, ate the poop and then turned back around into the correct position. The audience was dying with laughter (it was gross and funny), but the handler had NO idea what had happened until the judge commented in the critique.


 :spittingcoffee:


----------



## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Hunter, at the Nationals in, I think, 2006 a dog pooped, turned around, ate the poop and then turned back around into the correct position. The audience was dying with laughter (it was gross and funny), but the handler had NO idea what had happened until the judge commented in the critique.


I'd have claimed I trained the dog to clean up if it couldn't hold it lol.


----------



## Caja's Mom

Remind me to never, ever trial, with Lies.


----------



## Jag

I missed this thread. Just got done reading it, and realizing how much I have to learn. 

It's not just Lies, but the whole group of them I'm thinking has some bad mojo going on, LOL! :shocked: I guess that's one way to proof a dog to distractions!


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## Liesje

You trial enough and you will see a little of everything! I haven't done hardly any SchH trials (just three) but have done agility, SDA, different types of conformation, obedience/rally with multiple dogs and other types of performance events.


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## Jag

Lies...what is the difference between SchH and SDA?


----------



## carmspack

SchutZhund.  
__________________

Gesundheit .

--- in the first North American Campagne trial - free track , they had run out of tracking area , so my entry pulled the last straw , and a track was improvised that ran beside a drainage ditch , crossed the road, and ran along the backsides of a brand new subdivision that was unfenced with a kids birthday party at one location , a semi-construction site with skill saws whining and somewhere in the middle a kid on the back porch with a soccer ball . Lost control of the ball which ran right in front of the dog , who had a penchant for carrying things in his mouth all the time including buckets, bricks, car tires -- he deviated a few feet picked the ball up , went back to the track and continued tracking with the ball - the kid come running out screaming for the ball , the parents come running out screaming at the kid . Oy ! Track stopped, toy returned . Track continued. This is where I lost the points . although the dog finished the track successfully. This was the first trial of this sort ever . The day was so blazing hot every one was phoned , say at 5 in the morning to report for trial to begin promptly at 8 . 

Courage is "*KENO:* Keno, a five-year-old German Shepherd, owned by Constable John Gerrits, suffered severe injures in his successful attempt in capturing a breaking-and-entering suspect. Constable Gerrits and his police service dog Keno answered an emergency call about a breaking-and-entering in progress. 

When they arrived at the scene, the suspect had already begun to escape from the crime area. During the chase, Keno rounded a corner and was struck by an on-coming car. Despite Keno's severe bleeding from the accident, the canine continued to chase the suspect. Keno quickly caught up with the suspect and tackled him to the ground. He then gripped the criminal's arm, allowing the officers to arrest him. As a result of the accident, Keno required stitches in his leg and suffered head injuries." --- for this he was the Purina Hall of Fame winner 


that was Carmspack Keno who continued his illustrious career in policing serving close to his 11th year - then retired to hang out at the station , be included in mock arrests and training scenarios , going home to family with young child , living as he always had , in abundant health and being loved .


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## onyx'girl

Jag, SDA's site here
explains the SDA's guidelines. The website looks great with all the improvements!


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## Catu

When I'm reading this forum I always confuse SDA and PSA. If it's not too invasive to the thread, could someone explain to me what is each (similarities and differences) as concise as possible?


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## Catu

carmspack said:


> SchutZhund.
> __________________
> 
> Gesundheit .
> 
> --- in the first North American Campagne trial - free track , they had run out of tracking area , so my entry pulled the last straw , and a track was improvised that ran beside a drainage ditch , crossed the road, and ran along the backsides of a brand new subdivision that was unfenced with a kids birthday party at one location , a semi-construction site with skill saws whining and somewhere in the middle a kid on the back porch with a soccer ball . Lost control of the ball which ran right in front of the dog , who had a penchant for carrying things in his mouth all the time including buckets, bricks, car tires -- he deviated a few feet picked the ball up , went back to the track and continued tracking with the ball - the kid come running out screaming for the ball , the parents come running out screaming at the kid . Oy ! Track stopped, toy returned . Track continued. This is where I lost the points . although the dog finished the track successfully. This was the first trial of this sort ever . The day was so blazing hot every one was phoned , say at 5 in the morning to report for trial to begin promptly at 8 .
> 
> Courage is "*KENO:* Keno, a five-year-old German Shepherd, owned by Constable John Gerrits, suffered severe injures in his successful attempt in capturing a breaking-and-entering suspect. Constable Gerrits and his police service dog Keno answered an emergency call about a breaking-and-entering in progress.
> 
> When they arrived at the scene, the suspect had already begun to escape from the crime area. During the chase, Keno rounded a corner and was struck by an on-coming car. Despite Keno's severe bleeding from the accident, the canine continued to chase the suspect. Keno quickly caught up with the suspect and tackled him to the ground. He then gripped the criminal's arm, allowing the officers to arrest him. As a result of the accident, Keno required stitches in his leg and suffered head injuries." --- for this he was the Purina Hall of Fame winner
> 
> 
> that was Carmspack Keno who continued his illustrious career in policing serving close to his 11th year - then retired to hang out at the station , be included in mock arrests and training scenarios , going home to family with young child , living as he always had , in abundant health and being loved .


Wow Carmen!! You have one or two stories to be proud of, don't you


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## onyx'girl

PSA can change up the routines according to the different levels of trialing, where SDA is laid out and the handler knows the scenario's. 
I may be wrong, but I don't even know if there is a rule book or file for PSA at this time. So it would be difficult to even explain the differences. Just reading off the PSA site, it is vague. Maybe BritneyP will be able to explain better? PSA K9 | Protection Sports Association – civilian competition in canine obedience and controlled protection.


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