# possibly found the right breeders. need help!



## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Hello, again so if anyones been following ive been asking alot of questions in my hunt for my perfect GSD and a good breeder.

So heres where im at.
I have chosen 3 breeders, 2 recommend from individuals on this forum and 1 from a local dog trainer who trains GSDs and bought from this breeder in the past. 

Im going this coming week to look at the parents of 2 litters, on litter is 5 weeks old the other is expecting around the first of the year. 

So i have the pedigrees for the litters parents of thsoe 2 litters. So if anyone can look at them and tell me which seems like a better line. 

Breeder A
Waco Aus Der Konigshohle
Nala Vom Diamond

Breeder B
Ali Vom Hofe Schumacher
Alexa von der Spirit

The third breeder i wont be able to see for a bit as hes a little further away. So i want to narrow one of these two down to one before i go see breeder C

Both breeders actively compete in various bite work sports and are both responsible breeders. 

So when i go to look at the parents and the little what exactly should i be looking for? I mean what would be the red flags of the dog?

What i like about breeder A- if you buy his pup he give you 4 months, 1 hour per week training free. which will literally save me around 3k as local trainers are expensive. however he only has one female pup left so i dont know if ill be getting the more dominant female or more companion female, I would rather lean towards the companion side

Breeder B - he is able to get me a companion female, and is a tad cheaper but no free training. 

So both breeders have their ups and downs but both great breeders in the sport. 

So what do you guys think of each pedigree and what should i look for in the parents, puppies. As always, any other advice is appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Breeder A = Diamond Shepherd Kennels in Frederick 
Nala Vom Diamond | Diamond Shepherd Kennels

Breeder B = Johnson Haus in Frederick 
Johnson-Haus German Shepherds, Frederick Maryland

Breeder C = Paul Harnage in DC


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Here's for Paul... vereinigte stolz schaferhund, although their website is not updated...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If just going by pedigree and personal tastes, I would go with litter A of those two. If the litter Paul has is the one that was just confirmed, I might go with that litter over the other two. I know the sire of that litter (Athos) and how he produces and have talked to Paul quite a bit about the mother of that litter. The mother of litter A is related to the mother of Paul's litter too.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

lhczth said:


> If just going by pedigree and personal tastes, I would go with litter A of those two. If the litter Paul has is the one that was just confirmed, I might go with that litter over the other two. I know the sire of that litter (Athos) and how he produces and have talked to Paul quite a bit about the mother of that litter. The mother of litter A is related to the mother of Paul's litter too.


Yes it was the litter that was just confirmed. And as of now, until i go see the pups/parents of A and B all i have to really go on is the pedigree and the pictures on the websites


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A litter carrying Bomber could very possibly be "busier" than you would be comfortable with as a first timer. Again, I would go with Paul's litter as that one is what I recommended in the first place.....I have seen a couple of the sires of these litters....and still think Paul's is the best choice.

Lee


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I know breeder A and C well. I would get a dog from both. 

I don't know the sire of C. I do know the sire of A. And Waco is probably probably the nicest most social make I met in a while. Very loving and happy dog. 

But I would trust either.


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## tmnGSD (Dec 13, 2015)

My GSD is the daughter of Alexa von der Spirit and I could not have asked for a better dog. She has excellent drive and is in excellent health (no issues for 5 years now). This is, in my opinion, a HUGE point here (the health and hereditary issues that can come along with a puppy). Since owning shepherds before I wanted to look for a breeder that is reputable and not a backyard breeder (or those who just breed to breed if you know what I mean). I need to make sure that my Shepherd would not have the same health issues that I had in the past. What I liked about the breeder (Johnson Haus) is that he placed me with the right dog for what i wanted to do. Again, I was very concerned with the parents due to all the health issues that Shepherds can have. I asked many, many question to the breeder before making my deposit. Also, once I looked at the pedigree, I had no doubt that Alexa was going to be a good dam (and the type of parent that I was looking for).

Honestly, I understand that money does come into play but I would rather focus on the sire and dam before focusing on whether or not they give you free training. Sometimes that could be a catch to "lure you in" and buy their dog. 

As I said, I could not ask for a better GSD, temperament, drive and health. I would not hesitate to get another puppy from Alexa. And she's is just gorgeous


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Breeder B - he is able to get me a companion female, and is a tad cheaper but no free training.


If breeder B has a female with the temperament you are looking for, then that's who you should go with. The fact that the price is less than breeder A tells you that the cost of the "free" training is built into the purchase price of the pup. Which definitely isn't worth it if the female you end up with is more dominant than you can handle. Exactly what kind of training are you looking for that would cost $3k?


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> If breeder B has a female with the temperament you are looking for, then that's who you should go with. The fact that the price is less than breeder A tells you that the cost of the "free" training is built into the purchase price of the pup. Which definitely isn't worth it if the female you end up with is more dominant than you can handle. Exactly what kind of training are you looking for that would cost $3k?


Dog training in my areas tangers from 400-600 for a basic 2 week 1-2 hour per week class. And thats basic obedience. If you take their 12 week courae which is 1 hour per week it is 1200k depending on who you go with. There is sort of a monopoly as there are only these two trainers. In about a hour and half radius of our area. And the other dog is only 300 more so i wouldnt say the cost is built in. But if you figure the other training to be about 1-2 hours per week for 16 weeks it would be about 3k worth of local breeders time.


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## Themusicmanswife (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm further east in Maryland but I have found trainers around here. Some in Baltimore, some in Anne Arundel County, some in Howard County, and a couple in the Frederick area. Not sure how far you want to travel or can. Basic obedience has been around $250-300 for a 6-8 week course. More advanced obedience I'm not sure of because I'm not there yet. I have been very happy with the program and trainers from Paws and Possibilities. They have classes in Davidsonville and Severna Park. They are not Schutzhund or IPO trainers. They have been awesome. I hav been to a couple not so awesome trainers around Maryland as well. For me, I've gotten what I've paid for in regards to trainers. 

I don't know enough as many on the site to pipe in about the breeders so I won't.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Dog training in my areas tangers from 400-600 for a basic 2 week 1-2 hour per week class. And thats basic obedience. If you take their 12 week courae which is 1 hour per week it is 1200k depending on who you go with. There is sort of a monopoly as there are only these two trainers. In about a hour and half radius of our area. And the other dog is only 300 more so i wouldnt say the cost is built in. But if you figure the other training to be about 1-2 hours per week for 16 weeks it would be about 3k worth of local breeders time.



Oh wow. That is crazy expensive. The place I'm doing basic training here (in a group setting) is $85, 1/hr a week for 7 weeks. Private training starts around $25-50/hr. 

Good luck with your decision! I hope you find the perfect puppy for you.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

On his site Johnsonhaus advertises free training for the first 6 months -nice perk-I wouldn't pick a dog because of that but that's nice


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

holland said:


> On his site Johnsonhaus advertises free training for the first 6 months -nice perk-I wouldn't pick a dog because of that but that's nice


Yeah, i just saw that. So both A and B offer free training!


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## Fonz&Zoey (Nov 9, 2015)

I have two GSDs (male and a female) from Johnson Haus and one (Fonzie, the male) is out of an Alexa litter. I couldn't ask for a better working dog! (OFA rated good on the hips, normal elbows). Let me know if I can answer any questions. (PS...Dennis offers free training until the dog is 6 months old.)


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## KentsDad (Jul 30, 2015)

I have had a dog with bad hips, so I always look up both sides for good hips. Don't take the breeders word for it. OFA is a quick search, I recommend you do your own search.


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## VKFGSD (Jul 25, 2007)

Ok what am I missing. 

Do I have it right that this is a first time GSD person looking for a companion?

And she has been directed to breeders of high drive working/sport dogs? If looking for a pet this is NOT where I would recommend anyone to start. For those of us who are used to it and love high energy high drive dogs that's one thing but behaviors we expect and tolerate in our dogs will drive the average pet owner nutso.

Then I look at the pedigrees involved and just don't get it. For examples Dennis' litter. Now I know he is a reputable breeder and has a good reputation for working dogs but lordy the bitch is 3-4 on Crok (high levels of aggression, drive sometimes nerve issues) with a line to Belschik ( sorry not a fan seen too many nervy unstable dogs out of that line) further combined w/ Belgian and Dutch lines and all this taken to a sire w/ yet again another line to Crok. I personally would not touch this combo for any reason and certainly not for a companion dog.

Only took a quick look at the other pedigrees and seemed to see a lot of sport breeding including lines to Pike (handler aggression). Like I said what am I missing - these are not dogs for first timers unless this lady has a really good resume of handling some other breed of high drive working dogs.

To OP my recommendation is to slow down and go to a whole lot of trials, shows, stock dog events and see what's out there and what these dogs are like and the energy and noise levels these dogs have and really reflect about what you are willing to tolerate and live with b4 you make a decision that will affect your life for the next 10 to 15 years. High energy high drive dogs are demanding and MUST be trained and usually must be worked or they will get into mischief at a minimum and trouble at the worst.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Belschik always kinda interested me...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

holland said:


> Belschik always kinda interested me...


My girl is a Belschik daughter. Nerves of steel.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

VKFGSD said:


> To OP my recommendation is to slow down and go to a whole lot of trials, shows, stock dog events and see what's out there and what these dogs are like and the energy and noise levels these dogs have and really reflect about what you are willing to tolerate and live with b4 you make a decision that will affect your life for the next 10 to 15 years. High energy high drive dogs are demanding and MUST be trained and usually must be worked or they will get into mischief at a minimum and trouble at the worst.


This suggestion has been made multiple times.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

VKFGSD said:


> Ok what am I missing.
> 
> Do I have it right that this is a first time GSD person looking for a companion?
> 
> ...


there have been multiple references to other litters to the OP.....and from people who actually KNOW the breeders and some of the parents of the litters....not every pup in every litter is going to be high drive.....and the OP has said they would like to try schutzhund....

To me - to be called reputable, a producer of working dogs had better be producing dogs getting titled - not 1 or 2 out of 15 litters - but averaging 1 per litter at least.....I have a litter - which is too far for the OP to travel - and I recommened Paul Harnage who is much closer to the OP -his dogs are house dogs, he has bred a dog who has on the podium a few times at Nationals and went to the WUSV who lives as a house pet....I have met that dog personally quite a few times - and have friends with dogs from his littermate. I am pretty comfortable that his litter will produce a pup or two that will make a nice companion dog and novice level sport prospect

Unfortunately - one cannot just make blanket statements that might be construed as negative judgement here - too many people take offense and then the nasty threatening messages and emails start....

Just out of curiosity - Where have you gotten info that Pike (Schafbachmuhle) produces handler aggression????? Have never heard that anywhere before....had a Pike daughter too, and had him in pedigrees of other litters....EPI I have heard of but not handler aggression....I sure won't argue about Crok and Yoshey yes for HA and having met Belshik and quite a few of his offspring - I know people who love him and people who - but not Pike...

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a dog that has Pike in the pedigree, no handler aggression but has lots of fight drive...I also have a dog with Belschik 3rd generation, he is very stable nerved, high threshold and social(1 yr old now).


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Since all 3 breeders are relatively close to the OP, he/she can go and visit each one to get a feel.. Also, since 2 of the breeders provide training, with the 3rd breeder also being involved, for their puppy buyers, they can see some of what has been produced.. so go out a day they have their training.

Not all pups are going to be true to their pedigree..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Or...wait 6 months or a year and save up a few more $$. Part of the reason Alex is looking at WLs is cost. A *nice* WGSL would be a safe option for club level IPO, or AKC rally, OB, tracking.

Honestly if driving and budget are going to be ongoing constraints it will be hard to do IPO too. It's hard for me too so I don't say that to be unkind, just being realistic.

:shrug:


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

I do intend to go see each breeder and see what the pups/ parents / past litters look like, im planning on doing that this friday. However I'm going to look at a shiloh shepherd on thursday. Anyways. Show lines have been descided to me as lazy, i do not want that. Im looking for a pup somewhere in the middle. And these 3 breeders have neen recommended to me to stating that they produce great working lines but also can get me that one that falls more toward companion.
Oh by the way, im a guy.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Or...wait 6 months or a year and save up a few more $$. Part of the reason Alex is looking at WLs is cost. A *nice* WGSL would be a safe option for club level IPO, or AKC rally, OB, tracking.
> 
> Honestly if driving and budget are going to be ongoing constraints it will be hard to do IPO too. It's hard for me too so I don't say that to be unkind, just being realistic.
> 
> :shrug:


Oh and i found a few show dogs that are in my price range a d arent too far away for me to travel to get it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP - happy looking! This can be exciting. IPO is a lot of fun but it can be time consuming. It's taken care of most of my Saturdays for six years now.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Just make sure to keep doing your due diligence, SL or WL. Health tests, dogs are shown/worked, what are the pups doing in their homes, so on and so forth.

Good luck! 



Alexp08 said:


> Oh and i found a few show dogs that are in my price range a d arent too far away for me to travel to get it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh I missed this! 

SLs are lazy so you're going to look at Shilohs? 



Ya know not *ALL* showlines are lazy, just as not all workinglines are over the top high energy/drive. Plus lazy for you is entirely different then lazy for someone who is working their dog daily or looking to compete at higher levels of sport. It's subjective. So my 'lazy' SL probably would drive you nuts.

Do go ahead and look at Shilohs, I'm not discouraging you by any means. They probably will be a good fit for you and your family. 





Alexp08 said:


> I do intend to go see each breeder and see what the pups/ parents / past litters look like, im planning on doing that this friday. However *I'm going to look at a shiloh shepherd on thursday. Anyways. Show lines have been descided to me as lazy*, i do not want that. Im looking for a pup somewhere in the middle. And these 3 breeders have neen recommended to me to stating that they produce great working lines but also can get me that one that falls more toward companion.
> Oh by the way, im a guy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

As somebody that has owned a couple of Shilohs, I am not sure why OP is looking at them, yet interested in workinglines, or even showlines. Although the ones I owned were still registered German Shepherds back then, and they were pretty dogs, I would not recommend them for anybody that likes, enjoys, and is seeking the temperament of a German Shepherd.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh I missed this!
> 
> SLs are lazy so you're going to look at Shilohs?
> 
> ...


No no, im not looking at shilohs cause SL are "lazy". Ive been looking at shilohs for months now and a breeder near me has a litter so its between a shiloh and a german. Anyways lazy to me is my current lab. She poops out after a 35min walk, or 25mins of frisbee or 20 mins at the dog park. She then needs about a 2 hour nap to recover before she wants to do more. Now grant it shes only 7mo, but i was hoping for a dog that would be up for 5mile + hikes/jogs


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As somebody that has owned a couple of Shilohs, I am not sure why OP is looking at them, yet interested in workinglines, or even showlines. Although the ones I owned were still registered German Shepherds back then, and they were pretty dogs, I would not recommend them for anybody that likes, enjoys, and is seeking the temperament of a German Shepherd.


Why do you say this? And every breed really has someyhing to offer. I love my lab but i also want a dog that has something different to offer, i do like the temperament of a german, that doesnt mean i cant also like the temperament of a shiloh. But im always looking for more info on dogs in general so please message me about your experiences with your shilohs!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> Why do you say this? And every breed really has someyhing to offer. I love my lab but i also want a dog that has something different to offer, i do like the temperament of a german, that doesnt mean i cant also like the temperament of a shiloh. But im always looking for more info on dogs in general so please message me about your experiences with your shilohs!


I never said Shilohs have nothing to offer. I am just saying if you are looking to do sport with a dog, my personal experience tells me this is not the breed to do it with. 

Mine had very low energy levels, they had no prey drive which some believe higher prey is fundamental in a variety of sports venues, they had zero defense, and I really didn't find them all that capable of having a strong bond with their owner. IMO, I could have handed their leash off to any stranger passing by and they would have walked away with never looking back, no loyalty at all.

I also found them to be extremely needy and pesky.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Your lab is only 7 months old? No wonder she's tired. That's what puppies do play hard, sleep, play. Wow.

You know what, I don't think you should get another dog right now, of any breed, period.




Alexp08 said:


> No no, im not looking at shilohs cause SL are "lazy". Ive been looking at shilohs for months now and a breeder near me has a litter so its between a shiloh and a german. Anyways lazy to me is my current lab. She poops out after a 35min walk, or 25mins of frisbee or 20 mins at the dog park. She then needs about a 2 hour nap to recover before she wants to do more. *Now grant it shes only 7mo*, but i was hoping for a dog that would be up for 5mile + hikes/jogs


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

You seem like you're all over the place. 

Why not slow down, take time, and work your lab puppy before trying to add another pup.


P.s. I'd love for you to meet my not lazy showline


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As jax said earlier....that's been suggested to Alex several times.

in edit: LOL re: meeting Enzo.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> No no, im not looking at shilohs cause SL are "lazy". Ive been looking at shilohs for months now and a breeder near me has a litter so its between a shiloh and a german. Anyways lazy to me is my current lab. She poops out after a 35min walk, or 25mins of frisbee or 20 mins at the dog park. She then needs about a 2 hour nap to recover before she wants to do more. Now grant it shes only 7mo, but i was hoping for a dog that would be up for 5mile + hikes/jogs



ha My GSD would be perfect for you. That dog could do a 5k everyday no sweat! lol


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Your lab is only 7 months old? No wonder she's tired. That's what puppies do play hard, sleep, play. Wow.


no, i dont think you understand, she doesnt even play hard. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> You know what, I don't think you should get another dog right now, of any breed, period.


Excuse me?


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Alexp08 said:


> no, i dont think you understand, she doesnt even play hard.
> 
> 
> Excuse me?


most people on here will default to suggesting not to get a second dog until the first one is 2 or so. I'm not sure how much it is in labs, but in GSDs the dog has a bit of shift in personality as they mature. Mb the GSD pup who was loved other dog company won't care for it after he's matured, and so on. 

plus 2 really young dogs can be a lot more work than you plan.

Just think it through, then if you decide to get another member to your family, get a GSD!!  they are best dogs ever!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Ryankappel said:


> most people on here will default to suggesting not to get a second dog until the first one is 2 or so. I'm not sure how much it is in labs, but *in GSDs the dog has a bit of shift in personality as they mature*. Mb the GSD pup who was loved other dog company won't care for it after he's matured, and so on.


My first GSD is not yet two, but I'm noticing some shifts in her personality after she hit 18 months. They're not bad shifts, but they're definite differences. I knew those shifts were likely and I don't expect that I'll have the exact same dog six months from now.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Alexp08 said:


> No no, im not looking at shilohs cause SL are "lazy". Ive been looking at shilohs for months now and a breeder near me has a litter so its between a shiloh and a german. Anyways lazy to me is my current lab. *She poops out after a 35min walk, or 25mins of frisbee or 20 mins at the dog park. She then needs about a 2 hour nap to recover before she wants to do more. Now grant it shes only 7mo, but i was hoping for a dog that would be up for 5mile + hikes/jogs*



That is not lazy!!!!!!!!! That is too much "work" for a 7 month old puppy!!! She is still a BABY!!! 

FRISBEE????? Look up ACL tears. The surgery was developed because of the frisbee craze in the late 70's early 80's at U Penn Vet School....I worked there....I saw all the dogs coming in with torn ACLs.

You can be doing permanent long term damage to this dogs joints by asking her to do too much at one time.


and with a 7 month old puppy - it would be much better to wait another YEAR before starting with a new puppy.


Lee


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