# Kibble you should never feed....



## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Time to rock the boat and put up my all lousy food list. 

1. Ol Roy
2. Pedigree
3. Beneful
4. Purnia
5. Alpo
6. Friskies
7. Liams
8. Science Diet
9. Nutro
10. Royal Canin
11. Kibbles and Bits
12. Abady
13. Eukanuba
14. Bil Jac
15. Pro Plan
16. Authority
17. Nutra
18. Cesar Millan
19. Pro Pac
20. Ultra
OH I forgot Gravy Train


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

No boat rocked here


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Reasoning? Although there are a few on your list I would never touch, there are some that I would feed if I could not financially afford the higher priced better quality foods. I feed raw, but I have a friend that feeds Eukanuba and her dogs are 12 and 10 and quite healthy. She adopted them both when they were puppies, and have had no real health issues.


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## RileyMay (Aug 6, 2011)

Lakl said:


> Reasoning? Although there are a few on your list I would never touch, there are some that I would feed if I could not financially afford the higher priced better quality foods. I feed raw, but I have a friend that feeds Eukanuba and her dogs are 12 and 10 and quite healthy. She adopted them both when they were puppies, and have had no real health issues.


That's what I was wondering...The reasoning for this....I can't afford food like Orijen, California Natural, etc. I feed Purina, Science Diet, and Pedigree to my dogs'. It keeps their poop firm, not to soft, and not too hard. They are both very healthy, and we haven't had a problem with the food either.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Pro Plan and Eukanuba are two that I don't consider "bad"... though I dont feed them to my dogs. Also Bil Jac??? And I have used Royal Canin with great success.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

*Kibble you should never feed....* 

anything over $50 a bag.  I have fed many of the brands of kibble you don't like. My dogs have been happy healthy and long lived.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)




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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I feed raw.

If I had to feed kibble because raw didn't exist...

- Orijen
- Acana
- Now
- Go!
- CaniSource
- Taste of the Wild
- Summit
- Lifetime ($40 for 30lb bag, for those who won't spend much money on dog food.)

Would never, ever, ever allow Hunter to eat a single kibble of brands such as Medi-Cal, Royal Canin, Ol Roy... nope. I would sooner induce vomiting. No offense to those who feed this food. I truly don't mean it, but I know canine biology and what they are meant to eat. That is my two cents.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Lakl said:


> Reasoning? Although there are a few on your list I would never touch, there are some that I would feed if I could not financially afford the higher priced better quality foods. I feed raw, but I have a friend that feeds Eukanuba and her dogs are 12 and 10 and quite healthy. She adopted them both when they were puppies, and have had no real health issues.


Reasoning is quality of the ingredients, I assume. Rather than logical whole foods used to form the kibble, they use ingredients dogs are not designed to eat nor are the meant to thrive on. Dogs can survive on these low quality kibbles, but they cannot thrive...

Just take some time to read this link:
truth about pet food, pet food ingredients, toxic grains, by products in pet food, human grade pet food


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Reasoning is quality of the ingredients, I assume. Rather than logical whole foods used to form the kibble, they use ingredients dogs are not designed to eat nor are the meant to thrive on. Dogs can survive on these low quality kibbles, but they cannot thrive...
> 
> Just take some time to read this link:
> truth about pet food, pet food ingredients, toxic grains, by products in pet food, human grade pet food


I know all about the quality of ingredients, which is why I feed raw. I would rather feed my dogs what they were meant to eat than spend $50-$65 on a bag of processed food that only lasts 2 weeks between my four. However, I would not make it a point to knock others who do. Just like I don't make it a point to knock people who choose to eat a burger and fries as opposed to a salad and chicken breast. This argument has been played out many times and I think it's pointless to tell someone who's fed this lower quality kibble and raised a dog to 14 yrs of age that their dog did not live as good a life as your dog that ate expensive food and lived to the same age.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Feed what your dogs do well on....and the owner can realistically afford.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

You can eat McDonald's your whole life and still live as long as someone who doesn't. Doesn't mean it's good for you. Unfortunately, people won't care until they actually think about it and do their own research. The majority will not bother no matter how much you try to explain.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

robinhuerta said:


> Feed what your dogs do well on....and the owner can realistically afford.


Best.post.ever.!!!

I'm so sick of people who try to imply you're not a good owner if you don't spent at least $70/bag. 

Come tell my poor Kirkland Sig. fed dogs who were all saved from death row that they are living a crappy life because they eat a $30/40lb. bag of food, or that they are somehow deprived. 
Yeah, tell that to Petsmart's pin-up girl, poor thing has to eat_ Costco's_ kibble 










We tell our adopters to avoid corn, wheat, soy, and by-products. But we don't get hung up with "it has to be $50+ per bag or you're feeding 'garbage' "! 
Because I know that dogs have lived well into their teens for the past 50+yrs. on much much less than the better brands they have these days.



> 7. Liams


I didn't know Mr. Neeson had his own line of pet food...!?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Verivus said:


> You can eat McDonald's your whole life and still live as long as someone who doesn't. Doesn't mean it's good for you. Unfortunately, people won't care until they actually think about it and do their own research. The majority will not bother no matter how much you try to explain.


I love McDonalds.  So if I can eat McDonalds my whole life and live as long as someone who doesn't why would I eat anything else?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't see any mention of kirkland brand being bad. I think it's quite good for the price. Much better then anything the OP listed. Also not sure why you're ranting about people saying you have to feed $70 bags of food. No one said you had to. Or am I missing something here?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Not qualified in this area. However, have fed kibble from both ends of the spectrum. I feed the best quality food _that they will eat,_ that produces good results, firm stools, good coats, etc. It usually lies somewhere in the middle.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I love McDonalds.  So if I can eat McDonalds my whole life and live as long as someone who doesn't why would I eat anything else?


Falko's oncologist forbids raw feeding. On the other hand, she permits him to have his weekly McDonald's burger. Either way he is dying...things that make you go hmmmm.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Verivus said:


> I don't see any mention of kirkland brand being bad. I think it's quite good for the price. Much better then anything the OP listed. Also not sure why you're ranting about people saying you have to feed $70 bags of food. No one said you had to. Or am I missing something here?


Kirkland is actually a pretty decent food. Good price if I recall, too!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - What is your reasoning on some of these? A few of these foods are decent, medium grade foods. What are you basing your opinion on?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would not feed it but I am hard pressed to try to argue with my neighbor whose seventeen year old husky has been fed Pedigree all it her life......


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I understand that some people can't afford/don't want to spend $50+ on dog food, but there are brands out there that are so much better than Pedigree, Science Diet, etc that cost the same or less than they do (one example would be Kirkland that others have mentioned). It's all about marketing.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I do look for what I think is quality food, but that said, wish as many folks would be feeding their children half as well with as much attention to nutrition!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I understand that some people can't afford/don't want to spend $50+ on dog food, but there are brands out there that are so much better than Pedigree, Science Diet, etc that cost the same or less than they do (one example would be Kirkland that others have mentioned). It's all about marketing.


Many of the rescues in this area feed Pedigree including where I just got my puppy from. My vet suggests Science Diet as being one of the better ones but has said she has seen dogs on Old Roy with beautiful coats and dogs on the expensive brands with dry terrible coats. It is all about the dog and what the dog will tolerate. I feed Science Diet and Canine Royal and have had great success and long lived dogs. My dogs like it, they do well on it and I don't see any sense in paying more when my dogs are happy and healthy. BTW Kirkland is a costco brand so you might be paying less for the dog food but you are paying to be a member.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> Many of the rescues in this area feed Pedigree including where I just got my puppy from. My vet suggests Science Diet as being one of the better ones but has said she has seen dogs on Old Roy with beautiful coats and dogs on the expensive brands with dry terrible coats. It is all about the dog and what the dog will tolerate. I feed Science Diet and Canine Royal and have had great success and long lived dogs. My dogs like it, they do well on it and I don't see any sense in paying more when my dogs are happy and healthy. BTW Kirkland is a costco brand so you might be paying less for the dog food but you are paying to be a member.


 
That was just one example, there are many way better foods than Science Diet that are cheaper than SD. FYI- vets push SD because they sell it.

When I first got my dog, I fed him Purina One then Nutro Natural Choice, he had a beautiful shiny coat and was healthy, but I wanted to feed him a better food made by a company I trusted and also feed raw. He looks even better now. My point-and not necessarily directed at you-is just because a dog is doing fine on one food doesn't mean he wouldn't be doing better on another that has better ingredients a better reputation as a company, and could possibly even be the same price.


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## Mily (Mar 10, 2012)

hello to all 
although you might not agree i feed my baby *Torque* Eukanuba.
he is doing great on the food and loves it- his coat looks beautiful!

at the moment he is eating 3 cups or more a day [3 months] i would like to feed him something more affordable when he gets to the point where he is going thru a bag much quicker lol i am assuming after the 1 year mark.

what do u guys think of kirkland brand? i have read some good reviews and bad reviews .. do any of you members feed your pups Kirkland??Thanks!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> That was just one example, there are many way better foods than Science Diet that are cheaper than SD. FYI- vets push SD because they sell it.


FWIW - My vet does not sell Science Diet. She sells the Purina prescription brands. She likes Science Diet because of all the research they put into it. According to her they were the leaders in making a better brand dog food and did a ton of research. In any case to each his own.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Verivus said:


> I don't see any mention of kirkland brand being bad. I think it's quite good for the price. Much better then anything the OP listed. Also not sure why you're ranting about people saying you have to feed $70 bags of food. No one said you had to. Or am I missing something here?


Yes. Here on this board, I've had people insinuate that, and on another board, I had a woman go completely off on me and say if we could not afford to buy something "better than Kirkland" we should not have dogs. It gets old hearing that, especially when many fine GSD breeders here (and in 'real life' other than this board) feed Kirkland, as do many of the rescues we know. 

What sense would it make to feed something so expensive we couldn't take in and save dogs' lives just because someone else turned up their nose at Kirkland or 4Health (found that at a feed store the other day) or one of the other such products?

When we we were on a severe 'budget cuts' ourselves, we fed the dog's Atta Boy. 
Dogs are scavengers by nature and designed to make the best out of what they find to eat or are fed. This is why they look and do fine after years of Ol' Roy or what-have-you.

Some owners in our area do not even buy dog food. Their dogs only eat table scraps. I would never recommend this style of feeding - but I always know the ones who lived like that because they have no clue what kibble is and come to expect only table scraps.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mily said:


> hello to all
> although you might not agree i feed my baby *Torque* Eukanuba.
> he is doing great on the food and loves it- his coat looks beautiful!
> 
> ...


I would highly recommend Kirkland, if one doesn't have a Costco card, they can get 4Health or Diamond Naturals from feed stores or specialty pet stores (not the pet store chains).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The adage: You are what you eat, and you are what your food eats. Some dogs are very thrifty and can eke a lot out of a little. Some dogs are very sensitive and require high quality food. Some cannot handle certain high quality foods due to richness or ingredients. If "good enough" really is good enough, then leave well enough alone. If you want to see what a difference a quality diet can make, try it out. On the other hand, some dogs can't handle any sort of boat-rocking, either.

A lot of dogs look fine on what they are eating, but if I pet a dog and feel like my hand needs to be scrubbed down with Dawn, the dog could probably benefit from a diet change. "Doggie odor" is not really normal, either.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

msvette2u- I agree with your last post. I _almost_ drank that kool aid that says you must pay $$$ for a good quality dog food. There are some brands mentioned in this thread that I would never feed, but some that were deemed as bad & would feed if my boy did good on it.

The kibble debate exhausts me and I feel liberated after switching to raw.


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## Mily (Mar 10, 2012)

thank you for the response *msvette2u. *


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I feed both dogs and both my cats Authority and now all my family feeds their animals the same, my vet has no problem with it and all the animals are healthy and happy


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We fed Authority way back when we first got our dogs (2001) and our GSD pup at the time could not handle the corn in the food.

Authority Dog Food - Real Chicken Chunk | PetSmart

For the price vs. ingredient difference I'd choose something without corn in it, but if your dogs look fine and their stools are fine, then don't "fix" it


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> We fed Authority way back when we first got our dogs (2001) and our GSD pup at the time could not handle the corn in the food.
> 
> Authority Dog Food - Real Chicken Chunk | PetSmart
> 
> For the price vs. ingredient difference I'd choose something without corn in it, but if your dogs look fine and their stools are fine, then don't "fix" it


I'm aware of the corn, but they haven't had any adverse effects 

My sister and brother in law have two dogs, a min pin and a doberman. They had the min pin on a raw chicken diet but he was very thin, so they switched him to Authority kibble for the winter and are pondering whether to switch back. The doberman was a rescue who was very underweight when they got him and they put him on Authority but then decided to go to a higher quality food (I can't remember the brand but it was $70 a bag compared to $40 for Authority) but they found he developed skin problems and actually lost weight on it so they've switched him back


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Corn doesn't digest. That's a fact. In humans, let alone dogs. 

Only birds with their specialized digestion can make use of it, biologically speaking.
When you choose a dog food you pick the most digestibility, and soy, corn, and wheat are allergy triggers (because they've been so overused in dog food manufacturing) but mainly, do not digest so dogs cannot make use of it. 

Dog food producers use corn because it's so cheap. If I'm going to pay a lot, I'd better see no corn on the labels  When you can buy corn-free food for less than what food with corn goes for, that's a problem, IMO.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

What do the experts here think about 4health??? 
I tried blue buffaloe and was cleaning soft soup-y poops out of the yard for the whole month! 
Now I have them on 4health...better poops...
Is this a good choice or what?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I read the ingredients and they are very decent ones, comparable to the Kirkland and Diamond Naturals products.
If we didn't feed Kirkland due to the fact we have a Costco card and can go there, and their food is around $28-30/40lb., and 4Health was around $32/35lb., I'd buy it.

Kirkland's the easiest on our budget right now, is all


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

4Health is a decent food if you don't mind that it's made by Diamond. That's probably the main issue people would have with that food.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I read the ingredients and they are very decent ones, comparable to the Kirkland and Diamond Naturals products.
> If we didn't feed Kirkland due to the fact we have a Costco card and can go there, and their food is around $28-30/40lb., and 4Health was around $32/35lb., I'd buy it.
> 
> Kirkland's the easiest on our budget right now, is all


When Rogue came to us she was on purina...
I have only tried tastes of the wild, blue buffaloe, and 4 health
tastes of the wild was just mediocre to them and expensive to me
they liked bb but i hated the poops afterwards
and we all love 4 health
thumbs up for finding the perfect dog food


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

marinehoney said:


> What do the experts here think about 4health???
> ?


first, there are no experts here. lol Only people with opinions!

Second, I tried it with our youngest Boxer and found it inconsistent. One bag she was fine on, the next gave her terrible gas. One she would eat, the next she wouldn't touch. We just started her on all life stages Canidae and so far, so good. It's a mid range food with a decent price.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2034


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Time to rock the boat and put up my all lousy food list.
> 
> 1. Ol Roy
> 2. Pedigree
> ...


Never heard of Liams, but if I see it I will avoid it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Never heard of Liams, but if I see it I will avoid it.


It's on the shelf next to Purnia


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have 4 dogs. I feed Diamond Naturals. All 4 dogs do very well on it. It is a mid-price range feed, which makes hubby happy. The dogs have very little waste (small compact poop) which makes ME very happy. 

My daughter feeds her Beagle Beneful. I could break my neck tripping over her dog's poop.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Egads.
We get adopters who feed Beneful (I have them compare labels to our dog food) because those ads are so attractive 

Did you show her the dog food labels? For the quality, Beneful's expensive!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> Corn doesn't digest. That's a fact. In humans, let alone dogs.
> 
> Only birds with their specialized digestion can make use of it, biologically speaking.


Say WHAT? ! ?

And, other than a gizzard, what is specialized about bird digestion?
I will give you that we do not digest the little "husks" of the individual corn kernels but that is true of any grain.

Not saying corn is a great additive and is WAY overused in processed foods, but I have never heard such a thing and corn is a staple in many cultures.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The outer shell is undigestible, yes. 
If you can get it all ground down and broken down (plant fibers) then you could make use of it...but that's the key. Breaking it all down so one could make use of it.
The plant fiber is indigestible to us - which is why they use it in non-soluble fibers as a supplement. 

Birds with gizzards use that for breaking the corn down to where it can be used.

Even our teeth don't do as good of job as you can see when you eat corn. 

In cattle and goats, it's toxic in larger quantities since they are ruminants.
What About Grass-fed Beef? | John Robbins Official Site

We are not ruminants, nor are our dogs, but corn is still not a usable product for us or dogs either - https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf...or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=a366a72422fd9740

Research links to digestibility of corn.

There are more digestible products out there and IMO (take it or leave it) corn belongs in chicken feed and that's about it.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I have 4 dogs. I feed Diamond Naturals. All 4 dogs do very well on it. It is a mid-price range feed, which makes hubby happy. The dogs have very little waste (small compact poop) which makes ME very happy.
> 
> My daughter feeds her Beagle Beneful. I could break my neck tripping over her dog's poop.


That occurs because Beneful is full of useless ingredients that go in and come right out. Your dogs are actually using the majority of ingredients in the food you feed.


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

I've feed - 

Pro Plan
Pro Pac
Science Diet
and 
Nutro.

I tried the Kirkland's brand last time, and I'll never feed that again. Heidi got all of her allergies back

Those brands above, she doesn't have allergies with them.

Maybe they're crap food for some, but for her, they work very well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> The outer shell is undigestible, yes.
> If you can get it all ground down and broken down (plant fibers) then you could make use of it...but that's the key. Breaking it all down so one could make use of it.
> The plant fiber is indigestible to us - which is why they use it in non-soluble fibers as a supplement.
> 
> ...


I did not see anything other than a google search for corn and digestibility and did not find anything that says we can't digest corn. If you will look at chicken feed they mill the corn for them to. Grains are the first processed foods of civilization and we forget that without them we may still be stalking wild animals. Certainly there is waste as with ANY plant food we eat. That would be the fiber that keeps things moving in our systems.

I agree that ruminants are not designed to eat grain and for us to extract any value from any grain we must cook it. But there is nothing about corn that is evil or unique and it IS digested. Dogs are less able to utilze grains than we are because they do not have the enzymes to break down starches, their stomach pH is lower than ours, and they do not chew their food - and they are added because they are needed for the extrusion process. But corn is not unique in terms of digestability or not - that is true for all grains. So they must be cooked and highly processed for them to utilize them.

Here is an article on ensuring complete proetin sources if you are a vegetarian. Are you aware how much of the undeveloped world eats various indigenous grains, corn being one of them? 

Protein Combinations for Vegetarians


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> It's on the shelf next to Purnia


HAR
That is actually troo.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Um, no I'm completely un-aware. Thank you for the "education". 

But no, for dog _and_ cat food I will never purchase anything with corn again. 

Did you read about the deleterious effects of corn in cattle processing and the health benefits of eating grass fed beef only? The link in case you missed it -
_In cattle and goats, it's toxic in larger quantities since they are ruminants._
http://www.johnrobbins.info/blog/grass-fed-beef/


For humans with IBS (and dogs too) I am fully aware of how "digestible" corn is, and I avoid it in my own diet when possible. 

Oh, and I learned a lot about dog food and digestibility when working in the shelter. Those big bloated poops come from corn/soy based foods and you _see_ corn lying in the fecal material. You see it break apart and _see_ bits of corn when you're rinsing the poo away.
That alone told me all I needed to know about how a dog's body processes (hint - it doesn't) corn.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Nancy, corn (and a lot of vegetation) is something that has to be highly processed to be usable. Many cultures used corn after it was ground up or smashed or cooked to death. Eat corn on the cob or corn from the can, and (WARNING: GROSS) look in the toilet afterward. The corn doesn't look that much different coming out as going in. I am not sure how much humans digest from whole kernel corn but it isn't much.

Corn is an excellent source of energy, as are carbs in general. Many people who switch from kibble to raw notice their dogs still have their same level of energy but a more even-keeled energy; the hyper behavior tends to improve or disappear and the dog settles better.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.ddgs.umn.edu/articles-proc-storage-quality/2005-Stein%20(MNC)%20Methods%20to%20determine.pdf

Processing does make a big difference in what is available. I didn't read the whole thing yet but the initial numbers are interesting.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbRbp88nC8aGL2NU9Wr00k8mI4PkXw&pli=1

"The corn bran was recovered in yields of 90% and greater and seemed little affected by it journey."

Pooptacular!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Look - I am no advocate of corn or grains in general in dog food any more than I advocate other starches. They are there because (a) they are part of the manufacturing process and (b) they are an inexpensive source of calories and certain amino acids which, when given in combination with amino acids from legumes can provide a complete protein source.

I simply felt it was misinformation to say that birds were the only creatures who could digest *corn*. Corn has been a historical staple of Native Cultures in North and South America as have other grains elswewhere. 

Grain feeding livestock is an abhorrent use of *grains*. It takes over 20 lbs of grain to make 1lb of cattle - where it only takes between 2 and 3 to make 1lb of chicken or rabbit. And, of course, cattle generate massive amounts of methane, much more than they produce eating grass. And of course the fatty acid profile of grass fed beef is far better than that of grain fed beef. 

Grain is a worldwide staple of civilization but there is a lot of info out there that says maybe WE are not really designed to eat grains or legumes eather. Certainly not in any type of unprocessed form ......All grains and legumes need to be processed in some way for us to digest them. Some are downright poisonous if not cooked.

So all I am saying is I can see no special reason to single out corn as opposed to other grains other than (1) if the dog does have a corn allergy, well that's a done deal and (2) Its excessive misuse in Agribusiness and the ubiquitous presence of corn in everything from virtually all processed foods to plastics to cattle feed.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

But why feed a dog a bag of ground corn? Chickens, sure, but dogs? It just dosent make sense to me.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

It's real easy to throw a list on here when you haven't walked in other peoples' shoes. I use to get sucked into the food snobbery thing and refused to try any of your so called "bad" foods and my poor dog continued to lose weight from his chronic diarrhea. I must have spent a good $3000 that first year in vet bills for testing and meds and no one could figure what was wrong with him. I tried many of the top of the line foods like Orijin, Wellness, etc... that come so highly recommended. A poster on here mentioned her dog suffered from IBD and recommended the Purina Pro Plan. I decided I had nothing to lose at that point and tried this "bad" food and guess what? My dog flourished. It's over 1.5 years later and he's a healthy weight and diarrhea is a thing of the past. So when I see a post like yours every now and again, I just gotta laugh and tell myself that you don't know jack.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Egads.
> We get adopters who feed Beneful (I have them compare labels to our dog food) because those ads are so attractive
> 
> Did you show her the dog food labels? For the quality, Beneful's expensive!


Actually....her dog is 7 years old, looks and acts like an old man. He is also very over weight. She was on vacation for a week and we took our Lacy puppy and her Beagle out to the lease. As her dog is 'supposed' to be a hunting type dog, we ran blood trails and did some actual tracking with him for fun (we were working our Lacy). She was amazed at his inability to keep up with the work. His spirit was willing, but his body wasn't. 

While he was at our house, we began switching him over to Diamond. Before she left she ran by feed store and bought a bag. It will be truly interesting to see the difference in her dog when she returns again. 

He also has issues with yeast infections in his ears. I was suprised that her vet hasn't suggested she try a different food as well. I'll also be interested in seeing if the change of food makes any difference with his ear problems.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I remember when I first got Puppy, I put her straight on Orijen. It was the best that was available without going raw. Yes, the $80 something price tag including taxes STINKS. But, I wanted to do her right. And without putting more effort into feeding, this was my idea of right. She had soft poop for a while from parasites that were later diagnosed and treated. But while she was on the soft poop, Robin said to me again and again, don't just feed her what you think is the best, feed her what she does the best on. 

Puppy does great on Orijen right now. Coat is soft and lush, poops are small and hard (TMI but 3 sticks a poop, 2 poops a day). 

If she continued to not do well after diagnosis I would try all the top grade foods, and then all the Pro Plans and Science Diets until something sat well with her. 

I encourage my friends feeding foods with less than stellar ingredients to take a look at better brands. But if their dogs are doing well on it and they're happy, who am I to say otherwise?

The goal is to switch to raw SOMEDAY. But kibble is just so easy and versatile. Can be loaded into treat balls, can be used in training, can be scattered all over, etc.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Honestly, if my dogs thrived on Ol' Roy and the waste was minimal, I wouldn't really care what other people said. I'd feed what I felt best for my critters. 

If I had a dog with digestive problems, and I had to pay $100 a 30lb bag of food to help him thrive..I'd do it. 

I don't feed Senior horse feed until my older horses show they are having digestive problems. Because I have a mare who is 20 now, doesn't mean she would be better off on Senior feed. She is thriving on what I feed now. 

The only thing I know about corn is what my doctor told me. How do they fatten up hogs and cows? They feed them corn. I tend to stay away from corn, I don't need any help fattening up.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

robk said:


> But why feed a dog a bag of ground corn? Chickens, sure, but dogs? It just dosent make sense to me.


VS



fuzzybunny said:


> It's real easy to throw a list on here when you haven't walked in other peoples' shoes. I use to get sucked into the food snobbery thing and refused to try any of your so called "bad" foods and my poor dog continued to lose weight from his chronic diarrhea. I must have spent a good $3000 that first year in vet bills for testing and meds and no one could figure what was wrong with him. I tried many of the top of the line foods like Orijin, Wellness, etc... that come so highly recommended. A poster on here mentioned her dog suffered from IBD and recommended the Purina Pro Plan. I decided I had nothing to lose at that point and tried this "bad" food and guess what? My dog flourished. It's over 1.5 years later and he's a healthy weight and diarrhea is a thing of the past. So when I see a post like yours every now and again, I just gotta laugh and tell myself that you don't know jack.


I fed a dog with horrible food allergies Purine ONE Sensitive Systems. Had corn gluten meal in it. Guess what? It was the only food he could eat because in addition to his chicken allergy he could not tolerate flaxseed which is (sigh) added to a whole lot of "premium" foods. Had I not been open to consider a food with small amounts of corn because folks on the internet convinced me it was uniquely evil he may have itched and had diarreah until the day he died. 

Is there anybody out there saying to feed your dogs a bag of corn? Like other decent foods containing a small amount of corn, Pro Plan still does not have it as its primary source of protein.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> he could not tolerate flaxseed which is (sigh) added to a whole lot of "premium" foods


I second your "sigh." It's in a lot of supplements, too (looking at you, Nupro).


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> VS
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not saying that is what you are feeding. However, when I read over the ingredient list of 90% of the dog food at the grocery store I see Ground Yellow Corn as the number one ingredient. If the number one ingredient is ground yellow corn, that is the main ingredient. Ive done it in the past as well. My old girl Jasmine lived for 13 years and we fed her Dog Chow. She was healthy until right before the end.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Wild Wolf said:


> I feed raw.
> 
> If I had to feed kibble because raw didn't exist...
> 
> ...


The quality of the Acana food it what helped us select their food. And I like the fact that they are a Canadian company and support local Canadian agriculture.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lzver said:


> The quality of the Acana food it what helped us select their food. And I like the fact that they are a Canadian company and support local Canadian agriculture.


They actually get a lot of their meat from US companies. 

Go on the champion website... they put an asterisk by all the local ingredients. The ones that they don't have an asterisk aren't from Canada. Most of the meat "meals" do not have an asterisk. 

Orijen

I do agree that it is a very good food though.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Pro Plan and Eukanuba are two that I don't consider "bad"... though I dont feed them to my dogs. Also Bil Jac??? And I have used Royal Canin with great success.



This is the only reply I will address because it is the 1st.

Pro plan ?? Ugh, look at the ingredient list of Large breed


Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pearled barley, corn germ meal, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, wheat bran, salt, dried egg product, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, potassium citrate, Vitamin E supplement, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. 
I-4451
Brewers rice is an extremely low grade of grain and what you might not realize is the whole plant is used, yes stalk, stems and so on.
Corn and wheat are in the same boat, they use the whole plant and with corn they include the cob. They use feed grade not what you get in the grocery store. I could go on and on about this product but it would be easier to talk about whats good in this dog food. Sodium selenite has been gone over on many different sites and most manufactures have dropped it. Sorry I would not feed this to a pig. Check this site out it will give you more info than I have time to give out.

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


I believe the biggest issue with kibble is trust and Eukanuba is made by p&g which is a company I could never trust.

I gotta go and sorry about the typing as I can not reread my post. Good luck with your dogs. *Kirkland, Plusar and Heathwise* are all cheaper dog foods that are an much better option.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I gotta go and sorry about the typing as I can not reread my post. Good luck with your dogs. *Kirkland, Plusar and Heathwise* are all cheaper dog foods that are an much better option.


So you trust Kirkland (Diamond), but you don't trust P&G. That makes a whole lot of sense. 

Didn't Kirkland lamb and rice just have a recall along with a bunch of other Diamond products?


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> OP - What is your reasoning on some of these? A few of these foods are decent, medium grade foods. What are you basing your opinion on?


Ingredient list and as I mentioned, TRUST. Help yourself and dog out and read this

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Two alternatives for people who don't trust Diamond or Procter & Gamble and don't want to spend more than $50 for a 40lb bag are Victor and Precise. Those are what I feed. High quality foods from good companies at affordable prices.


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## JeepHound (Mar 14, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Ingredient list and as I mentioned, TRUST. Help yourself and dog out and read this
> 
> The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


Except that list also contains meat/fish/poultry meal as a food to avoid, yet all dog foods seem to contain some sort of fish or meat meal.

Seems if you avoided everything on that list, your dog would starve


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> So you trust Kirkland (Diamond), but you don't trust P&G. That makes a whole lot of sense.
> 
> Didn't Kirkland lamb and rice just have a recall along with a bunch of other Diamond products?


Yup and it's why I stopped feeding their products.

But the big swing and a miss here is recommending Healthwise when he doesn't trust P&G 

Many many top breeders feed and recommend ProPlan and Eukanuba. These are not stupid people. They feed what works. 

While field trialing I saw people feeding their dogs kibbles that most internet experts would make gagging noises about. But I never saw a fitter bunch of dogs in my life. 

I have learned to not pass judgement


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know if somebody already mentioned this, but I like the website www.dogfoodadvisor.com. When my dog was first diagnosed with diabetes I looked up all the food the vets at the hospital suggested, and most of them were poorly rated. I ended up putting him on Orijen Sr. and Freshpet select. I tried Nature's Variety frozen pasteurized raw food, but it often looks a bit freezer burned. For the money it costs I wouldn't expect it to look that way.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

For the first two years of Gunner's life, I tried a TON of high quality foods ( Cal Natural, Wellness, TOTW, Evo, Innova, Acana & Orijen) and every one of those affected him in different ways. Either he had loose mushy stools, diarrhea, irritated intestines or baaaaaad gas (Evo did that).
After the first 5 foods, I put him on Eukanuba. His stools firmed up and I didn't have a single problem.

But I was being told I was feeding a horrible food. Someone even went so far as to call it "puke-anuba".  So I again tried the last two foods and again, problems. Back to the Eukanuba I went and he stayed on it for a bit.

Then I decided to try Precise Sensicare and he does fantastic on it. But had he not, he'd be a Eukanuba dog. 
I have nothing against the food and bowed to the pressure of people.
I can't deny he did well on it.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My English bulldog also had to eat Eukanuba. She had horrible skin allergies, and Eukanuba was the only food she could tolerate for a long time.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I can't read through all the post yet since we're up to 8 pages so far but I just wanted to say...



robinhuerta said:


> Feed what your dogs do well on....and the owner can realistically afford.


^ This comment wins.

Of course, the person who posted this list (Not Robin, I'm talking about Tony) also once called me a pinheaded idiot owner because I didn't feed Orijen and said anyone who doesn't feed it/can't afford it shouldn't own a dog. So I guess the real list in Tonys eyes should be "Feed Orijen or shoot the dog". At least that's what they told me when I said I'd never feed Orijen because it's overpriced (Just under 30lb for $80+ here) and that I could feed RAW for half the price.


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

When bear had struvite crystals in his pee the vet "perscribed" royal canin. It's extremely expensive for something that has corn in it...but I trusted the vet to resolve the problem. Nothing changed so I called back and THEN she gave him some cheap antibiotics (after I had transitioned him to the food ....turns out she sells Royal Canin for profit!). He'd also had loose stools that firmed right up after switching to Innova. I don't really know that much about dog food but we're loving the Innova!


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> They actually get a lot of their meat from US companies.
> 
> Go on the champion website... they put an asterisk by all the local ingredients. The ones that they don't have an asterisk aren't from Canada. Most of the meat "meals" do not have an asterisk.
> 
> ...


Hmmm .... there goes that theory then. And I thought I did my homework  Thanks for letting me know.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

fuzzybunny said:


> It's real easy to throw a list on here when you haven't walked in other peoples' shoes. I use to get sucked into the food snobbery thing and refused to try any of your so called "bad" foods and my poor dog continued to lose weight from his chronic diarrhea. I must have spent a good $3000 that first year in vet bills for testing and meds and no one could figure what was wrong with him. I tried many of the top of the line foods like Orijin, Wellness, etc... that come so highly recommended. A poster on here mentioned her dog suffered from IBD and recommended the Purina Pro Plan. I decided I had nothing to lose at that point and tried this "bad" food and guess what? My dog flourished. It's over 1.5 years later and he's a healthy weight and diarrhea is a thing of the past.....


I got sucked in, too. Too many food changes, and none worked. Some dogs will thrive on "cheaper" food. If you find that food? Hallelujah!!!!! Don't mess with what ain't broken.!

I am NOT a Science Diet fan - it proved *very* bad for my oldest dog, but she has allergy issues. 



Lilie said:


> Honestly, if my dogs thrived on Ol' Roy and the waste was minimal, I wouldn't really care what other people said. I'd feed what I felt best for my critters.
> 
> If I had a dog with digestive problems, and I had to pay $100 a 30lb bag of food to help him thrive..I'd do it.


Yup, me, too. 



GSDGunner said:


> For the first two years of Gunner's life, I tried a TON of high quality foods ( Cal Natural, Wellness, TOTW, Evo, Innova, Acana & Orijen) and every one of those affected him in different ways. Either he had loose mushy stools, diarrhea, irritated intestines or baaaaaad gas (Evo did that). After the first 5 foods, I put him on Eukanuba. His stools firmed up and I didn't have a single problem.
> 
> But I was being told I was feeding a horrible food. Someone even went so far as to call it "puke-anuba".  So I again tried the last two foods and again, problems. Back to the Eukanuba I went and he stayed on it for a bit.
> 
> Then I decided to try Precise Sensicare and he does fantastic on it. But had he not, he'd be a Eukanuba dog. I have nothing against the food and bowed to the pressure of people. I can't deny he did well on it.


Glad you found the right thing for yours! If someone came to me right now, and said, "I have the food that will cure your dog's digestive issues!" I'd switch in twelve seconds and I no longer care whose name is on the label. I just want him healthy.

The proof is in the poop.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why do we feed grains? 

Well, I ran out of dog food last week, and couldn't get up to the feed store for a few days. If I feed my dogs chicken, they need a minimum of 2 chicken leg quarters per dog per day. So that means approximately 2# of chicken, and for my lot, that would be 20 pounds of chicken per day. But lets stick with chicken leg quarters. One chicken must die for each dog each day. (Leg quarters are the cheapest part of the chicken. 

Well that is 365 chickens per year per dog. For me that would be 3,650 chickens. That is a LOT of chickens. Ok, if you feed the whole chicken, then you could probably get away with half that amount. But still, who of us is willing to raise 188 chickens per year so that our dog can eat? 

And who can afford to feed beef. A human might eat 1/4 pound of beef three times a week, but a dog would need to eat 1/2 to 2 pounds of beef in a day. For those of you who can feed raw, that is awesome, but unless I am willing to scoop up road kill deer, or poach me some deer, there is no way my dogs can go without some grains in their diet. 

I am currently feeding 4Health, and have had the exact experience of Jax08, only in reverse, meaning I had terrible results with Canidae and am doing ok with 4health. They are both made by Diamond. Probably the same garbage in different bags, packaged for different companies. Or perhaps one has a little more of this and less of that. But even though they are the same breed, what works for some dogs won't work for others. 

As for coats, I think that if you brush your dog regularly your dog's coat will be a lot better. So its not always the food that is causing the coats to look less healthy.


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## JeepHound (Mar 14, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> They actually get a lot of their meat from US companies.
> 
> Go on the champion website... they put an asterisk by all the local ingredients. The ones that they don't have an asterisk aren't from Canada. Most of the meat "meals" do not have an asterisk.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm missing something but the asterisk only states "DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen."

I can't find anywhere on the site where it says everything else is not from Canada


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Every responsible dog owner is going to feed their dog the best food possible, and every dog has different requirements 

I totally disagree with the OP for posting a list of what THEY think are garbage brands for no reason outside of what seems to be rubbing their opinion in other's faces. Have your opinion, that's your right, but don't tell me I'm a horrible owner for feeding my animals one of the brands on your list. I'm not going to lose a moment of sleep over worrying about what other's think


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Rotfl!!!



shepherdmom said:


> *kibble you should never feed....*
> 
> >>>> anything over $50 a bag.<<<<
> 
> i have fed many of the brands of kibble you don't like. My dogs have been happy healthy and long lived.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

that  and this opcorn:.



Lucy Dog said:


>


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JeepHound said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but the asterisk only states "DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen."
> 
> I can't find anywhere on the site where it says everything else is not from Canada


You'll need to email them for that. They'll tell you if you ask.

Here's an email that was posted from another member here regarding the issue:

_Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada. _

_So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774)._

_ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash  ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat._

_Best Regards,_

*Bonnie*
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f 780.939.6858


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're right, good owner spending starts at $45.00 a bag. :laugh:



msvette2u said:


> Best.post.ever.!!!
> 
> >>>> I'm so sick of people who try to imply you're not a good owner if you don't spent at least $70/bag. <<<<<
> 
> ...


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Corn,,, I would never feed it to my dog because of the short digestive tracks that dogs have. But what everyone is over looking is that the corn in dog food is FEED grade. Their are at least 17 different types of corn grown in the USA and feed grade is one of the bottom feeders. Manufactures who include corn (other than Tuffy's) are using the *entire* corn, which includes the kernels, COB, TASSSLE, OUTER SHELL(some) AND SOME STALK. I have never taken the corn I eat and fed it to my dog, but I am sure it would not cause issues like those products with corn in it. *Keep in mind most manufactures are in this for money, "not" for their love of dogs. 

I just found this 
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/2007-04-19-pet-food-usat_N.htm
*


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> They actually get a lot of their meat from US companies.
> 
> Go on the champion website... they put an asterisk by all the local ingredients. The ones that they don't have an asterisk aren't from Canada. Most of the meat "meals" do not have an asterisk.
> 
> ...


* DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen. 

Please show where it states their meat is from US. They make claims all across the board about regional ingredients... in fact, they stress it. I have never heard Champion getting meat from outside Canada.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Wild Wolf said:


> * DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen.
> 
> Please show where it states their meat is from US. They make claims all across the board about regional ingredients... in fact, they stress it. I have never heard Champion getting meat from outside Canada.


Did you read my last post? The one after the one you quoted from the champion rep?

I'm not trying to knock the food. I fed it for a while and have no complaints. I think it's a very good kibble... maybe one of the best. Just trying to point out the facts.


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## JeepHound (Mar 14, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> Did you read my last post? The one after the one you quoted from the champion rep?
> 
> I'm not trying to knock the food. I fed it for a while and have no complaints. I think it's a very good kibble... maybe one of the best. Just trying to point out the facts.


Well that information was a little disappointing. For the price, I thought I was getting all Canada, all the time.

At least they were forthcoming and honest about the information, unlike another popular company...I'd rather Champion get some of its ingredients from the U.S. that meets strict requirements than to use animals that meet one of the 4Ds.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> you're right, good owner spending starts at $45.00 a bag. :laugh:


Well at the rate inflation's climbing, it'll be that much or more soon


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

At the rate inflation is climbing, I'm going to take Renji out to the wildnerness areas and turn him loose to do his own grocery shopping....


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

DianaM said:


> At the rate inflation is climbing, I'm going to take Renji out to the wildnerness areas and turn him loose to do his own grocery shopping....


LOL That'll definetely make the dog more appreciative of his food  At the very least he can't complain he doesn't like what you're feeding him


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

DianaM said:


> At the rate inflation is climbing, I'm going to take Renji out to the wildnerness areas and turn him loose to do his own grocery shopping....


Yea? Well, _I'm_ going to teach my dogs to go out in the wilderness and shop for _me_ too!

Now, just gotta find me some wilderness that has Taco Bell tucked neatly in the middle....


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> you're right, good owner spending starts at $45.00 a bag. :laugh:


I DISAGREE, because Pulsar is 39.99 for the large bag. I am phasing out one brand in order to replace it with this. Why, because it has no grains and no potatoes and I trust this company. Oh, I well still be feeding Orijen as his main diet, but I believe in feeding more than one brand. But with any and all dog food, I will still be adding fresh meat to his diet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> But with any and all dog food, I will still be adding fresh meat to his diet.


So you take a balanced dog food and add more meat to it? What do you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I DISAGREE, because Pulsar is 39.99 for the large bag. I am phasing out one brand in order to replace it with this. Why, because it has no grains and no potatoes and I trust this company. Oh, I well still be feeding Orijen as his main diet, but I believe in feeding more than one brand. But with any and all dog food, I will still be adding fresh meat to his diet.


So if you are paying less it's ok, LOL. Whatever. 

The price of Nutro is over forty dollars a bag now and Kumpi-corn food is over fifty, while 4Health is $29.99. I do give chicken leg quarters on occasion. I have tried grain free, TOTW and Canidae grain free, and it wasn't good for my dogs. So, I am not sold on grain free. I am wondering if there is some benefit in rotations though.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

What would you consider "good" kibble op? of course, thats around 40-60 a bag?


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I DISAGREE, because Pulsar is 39.99 for the large bag. I am phasing out one brand in order to replace it with this. Why, because it has no grains and no potatoes and I trust this company. Oh, I well still be feeding Orijen as his main diet, but I believe in feeding more than one brand. But with any and all dog food, I will still be adding fresh meat to his diet.


I think paying that much for a bag of beans is a bit ridiculous, but whatever floats your boat


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Time to rock the boat and put up my all lousy food list.
> 
> 
> 4. Purnia (Purina?
> ...


These are the brand of foods that are considered Premium down here. 99% of people competing at world level in shows or sports feed one of the foods of this list. If these are the premium brands, think of the lower brands! There would be no living dogs in Chile if those were as that bad.

Until I get my car back I can't buy the usual brand I feed my dogs, so they are eating whatever is sold on the small store down the hill... You would be shocked!! but the can survive a week or two on that one, I'm not sure if I'll survive the gases at night, though LOL.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Soy makes dogs really gassy. I can only guess peas and lentils will do the same.

What's more disturbing is they bring the protein levels up with these lentils, peas, and soy. And dogs can use animal protein much easier than plant proteins as the gas will prove to you


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Soy makes dogs really gassy. I can only guess peas and lentils will do the same.
> 
> What's more disturbing is they bring the protein levels up with these lentils, peas, and soy. And dogs can use animal protein much easier than plant proteins as the gas will prove to you


And the protein levels aren't even all that high. Things that make you go hmmmmm


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GrammaD said:


> And the protein levels aren't even all that high. Things that make you go hmmmmm


And the amino acid profiles are not complete......grains + legumes = complete protein. But dogs *do* process meat protein better.

Grains really not added to dog feeds for the protein though is that the claim the bean and pea folks are making or is it just another new marketing twist? Don't get me wrong - I am having lentil soup and cornbread for dinner tonight. [but my dogs aren't]


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I always heard that too, that's why Beans and Rice are great together.

I think the purpose of any starch in dog food, be it grain or pea, is to stick the rest of the ingredients together??


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> So you take a balanced dog food and add more meat to it? What do you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat?


LOL, thanks funny.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lentils are a complete protein. At least for humans...has anyone here used any of the dog foods that have them in it?


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> And the amino acid profiles are not complete......grains + legumes = complete protein. But dogs *do* process meat protein better.
> 
> Grains really not added to dog feeds for the protein though is that the claim the bean and pea folks are making or is it just another new marketing twist? Don't get me wrong - I am having lentil soup and cornbread for dinner tonight. [but my dogs aren't]


I have posted numerous times about what the grains are made of that is in dog food kibble. If you don't believe me, find a dog food manufacturing plant in your area and ask them for a visit. When and if you get in, ask to look at the grain they are using. There is no good proteins coming from the grains they use. YES, I have gone through 2 different plants and it might shock you. I see why people make their own dog food. I talked to the Pulsar sales lady and they made no such claim but then she figured out right away that I had a grip on dog food.

The Dog Food Project - Is too much protein harmful?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why is my question funny? I really want to know what you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat and creating an imbalanced diet. It's a perfectly legitimate question. If you don't have the answer, that's ok.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Why is my question funny? I really want to know what you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat and creating an imbalanced diet. It's a perfectly legitimate question. If you don't have the answer, that's ok.


 
I don't know why your question was funny either, but according to Monica Segal, you can add up to a certain percentage of diet in meat and other foods without worrying about balancing it. I can't think of what the percentage is off the top of my head- maybe 1/3?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m sure you can, especially since the kibbles have a range of vitamins/minerals, but it is going to depend on how much is being added. If it's significant then it needs to be balanced.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Lentils are a complete protein. At least for humans...has anyone here used any of the dog foods that have them in it?


No, lentils are short 2 amino acids, methionine and cysteine, unless sprouted.

In dog food they are used as a binder/filler, just like grains, but tend to artificially inflate the protein content (artificially since the bioavailability to dogs is practically nil)

So many of the grain free foods are taking a free ride on the myth train, counting on people to not question whether potatoes or legumes/pulses are any better than brown rice or oatmeal etc


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Interesting! I just saw my rhuematologist and his Naturopath last Tuesday...they both told me that. Guess I'll have some info to take back next time, LOL.

Yes, I wondered about that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I believe quinoa is complete....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GrammaD said:


> No, lentils are short 2 amino acids, methionine and cysteine, unless sprouted.
> 
> In dog food they are used as a binder/filler, just like grains, but tend to artificially inflate the protein content (artificially since the bioavailability to dogs is practically nil)
> 
> So many of the grain free foods are taking a free ride on the myth train, counting on people to not question whether potatoes or legumes/pulses are any better than brown rice or oatmeal etc


I completely believe you are right. Basically if a dog has allergy or digestive problems with a certain ingredient it should be avoided but for goodness sake, MEAT allergies are common allergies in dogs.

The stuff about corn stalks being ground up into feedstuffs is a bit hard for me to believe. .. At least if it is not listed under one of the many byproduct names such as "Corn Cellulose" or "DDGS" as opposed to "ground yellow corn" or "corn gluten meal"

Grains, Potatoes, Beans, all if highly processed do provide less expensive calories than meat products as well as help "hold it together" for the food. 

All this talk about food is making me hungry. Lets go to the fast food joint and chow down on some pink slime, everlasting fries, and surreal artificially flavored milkshakes. MMMMMMMMMMM.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

From an ecological point of view, I think using non human grade meat and chicken and byproducts is the most ethical think to do. Human grade food should be used to feed humans, not used to make kibble dog food, as long as that food provides the nutritional needs of the dogs. It has been that way for 30.000 years.

When I lived in Santiago I used to buy a lot of turkey necks until I couldn't find them anymore and I discovered they are being sold to Africa... it makes you think.

Yes, there are those of us who like to consider dogs as family members and want the best of the best for them and raw is a perfect option for that. But lets face it, we are only having this discussion because we have more food than what we need, and in the big scheme of things, if our dogs eat chicken breast or chicken carcasses is not that important.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> All this talk about food is making me hungry. Lets go to the fast food joint and chow down on some pink slime, everlasting fries, and surreal artificially flavored milkshakes. MMMMMMMMMMM.


Dont forget the clay thickner in those milkshakes.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Making a pet owner feel inadequate because they feed basic, commercial dog food....is the same as making parents think they are poor parents because financially, they have the need to shop at Aldi and Bargain Grocery Stores.......

Choosing what to feed your dog *for what ever reason* makes no difference in being a better or not owner.....JMO


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

robinhuerta said:


> Making a pet owner feel inadequate because they feed basic, commercial dog food....is the same as making parents think they are poor parents because financially, they have the need to shop at Aldi and Bargain Grocery Stores.......
> 
> Choosing what to feed your dog *for what ever reason* makes no difference in being a better or not owner.....JMO


:applause:


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Why is my question funny? I really want to know what you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat and creating an imbalanced diet. It's a perfectly legitimate question. If you don't have the answer, that's ok.


I think is funny because
1. I have posted many times that I feed Orijen and am adding Pulsar.
2. Fresh meat is what dogs were put on this planet to eat, not grains, potatoes, peas, fruits, nuts, vegetables or any other goofy stuff some people think dogs need. 
3. I really don't care about calcium #'s, I look at quality of food. If your feeding 1 of the foods I listed then your way off base.
4. Dog's rarely get the amount of meat that they really need.
5. I disagree with most post's I see on the forums here.
6. Imbalanced diet???? Whatever gives you the thought feeding even 1/2 of a dogs diet meat would put it out of balance? Sure a wild meat source would be way better, but that's not possible.
7. *I totally love rocking the boat.
*8. You would be shocked at what I do for a living.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Mods... can we please bend the board rules for like 20 minutes. Pretty please.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

All this talk about balance... strict ratios...

Go tell that to the wolves... heck, tell that to all the wild animals on planet earth.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I'll make this short. I have to tell you guys my last GSD got a tumor under his neck. When I asked my vet if the food I was feeding could have caused his tumor he said, *YES*. Well, because of that tumor I had to put one beautiful GSD down. I will never ever in a million years ever feed a crappy dog food to my dog again. Putting Beno down, crushed my world and 3 years later I still feel guilty and feel it was my fault. I still get tears in my eyes over it and right now is one of those times. Since then I have done my homework, to the extreme level. Feed your dog what you want, but keep in mind, what happened to me can happen to you.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Actually (for anyone who cares to know)......Wolves eat berries, roots, dirt, pre-digested grains from the intestines of their prey, fruit (Wolves in Italy actually invade the grape fields and eat the grapes), and many other things....so *perhaps*...one should do more actual research before making some statements.

Wild animals will eat *anything* to survive.....there are no ratios....only survival.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

ETA: directed at 3TT's last post:

Sure it could have. So could the fertilizer you put on the grass. Or the chlorine in your water. Or the cleaners you used in your house. _Or his genetics. Or his particular physiology. 

_For every "I think it was X that caused this cancer" you'll find other possibilities. There's a million stories of people (and dogs) that ate well, organically, never smoked, drank moderately or not at all, exercised, did everything "right" that got cancer and died early/young. Then there's just as many --my grandfather included-- who ate red meat up the yin yang, drank like an Irishman (which he was), smoked until he was 85, ate butter, candy, everything "bad", never ever would've THOUGHT about exercising, and lived until he was 97. 

If the answer to cancers and tumors were that easy, believe me. Everyone would know. 

What would you say to mothers whose children develop tumors and leukemia and cancers at age 1-2? That their breastmilk wasn't good enough?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

And Tony... how exactly did your vet come up with that conclusion? Was that a fact or just his/her opinion?


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> ETA: directed at 3TT's last post:
> 
> Sure it could have. So could the fertilizer you put on the grass. Or the chlorine in your water. Or the cleaners you used in your house. _Or his genetics. Or his particular physiology.
> 
> ...


You most be a vet, you must have done an examine on Beno when I wasn't there. No your from E. Wa. Geez, another one...


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Raw fed dogs and dogs on premium kibbles and dogs on mid grade kibbles and dogs on poor kibbles and dogs fed table scraps and dogs that eat refuse out of dumps get cancer.

Your vet has no idea what caused it. Saying it was a possibility that what you fed is responsible was not your vet's finest moment.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I guess if your vet could definitively say the food you fed caused that cancer, he/she should be ashamed of himself for hiding his obviously uncharted talents and not coming forward to save the lives of millions. I mean, NO ONE ELSE can do that--if he can, he should be helping others!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GrammaD said:


> Raw fed dogs and dogs on premium kibbles and dogs on mid grade kibbles and dogs on poor kibbles and dogs fed table scraps and dogs that eat refuse out of dumps get cancer.
> 
> Your vet has no idea what caused it. Saying it was a possibility that what you fed is responsible was not your vet's finest moment.


I personally think we have poisoned our enviornment. My first dog was fed the cheepest stuff on the planet in a big old blue bag, so long ago I don't even remember the name. She also got table scraps. She lived to be 13+. Today I know people that buy the most expensive stuff available and still have problems with their dogs. Everything from allergies, to cancers, to autoimmune disorders. The problem is not with raw vrs kibble or expensive vrs cheep food. It is the air we breath and the water we drink and its only going to get worse. Respiratory dieases are poised to become the worlds leading killer.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I think is funny because
> 1. I have posted many times that I feed Orijen and am adding Pulsar.
> 2. Fresh meat is what dogs were put on this planet to eat, not grains, potatoes, peas, fruits, nuts, vegetables or any other goofy stuff some people think dogs need.
> 3. I really don't care about calcium #'s, I look at quality of food. If your feeding 1 of the foods I listed then your way off base.
> ...


Tony, this place is a cooperative community where we have open discussions about various issues and not a place for one person to get on a soap box and pontificate, showering their "vast knowledge" down upon us. I dare say many folks on this forum have more knowledge and more experience feeding dogs than you.

It is also a headache for all of us when somebody decides it is their mission to rock the boat for fun. We just want to talk about things that are important to us and not have to constantly mind one of the Katzenjammer kids.

If you don't care about calcium you should do a little reading about what happens to dogs who have been fed too much meat and not enough bone. 

Personally, I think Catu hit the nail on the head. Dogs have been scavenging alongside of us for thousands of years and eating our garbage. Wild canids are very opportunistic about what they eat as well. 

Nothing shocks me anymore. What you do for a living is of no consequence.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

I fed my white GSD Purina and in her later years Nutro with the Glucosimine/Chondriton (spelling?). Skye lived for SIXTEEN years. The vet always questioned how old she was, thinking she was younger than she was. What finally brought my dog down?? Her hips and old age. I had to have her put down 5 years ago, and it was the 2nd worse thing I have ever had to do in my life (2nd only to having to take my dad off of life support). 

I am very sorry your dog got cancer and you had to put him/her down. The vet you had did you no favors in telling you it was the food you fed your dog. That would be like saying the 2-3 year old babies who get cancer, that it is the parents fault their child got leukemia because of what they have been fed. Sometimes crap just happens and it is sucky and if you over analyze it you will only drive yourself crazy. Give yourself a break , and don't tell people that have no choice financially but to feed their dog a lesser quality food than you deem fit that they are horrible dog owners. My current dog does get Taste of the Wild, but only because I can afford it and now I am better educated, but in no way do I think if I fed Skye "better" food she would have lived longer.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Here we go...



3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I think is funny because
> 1. I have posted many times that I feed Orijen and am adding Pulsar.
> 
> Need a pat on the back?
> ...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am not sure I buy into the premise that our dogs need more meat than they are currently getting, particularly most pets.

I fed Evo to Grim and his blood and urine numbers went wonky (and I never had values as high when I fed raw) and I wonder about the concentrated protein sources. I think that is even a possible smoking gun with too many jerky treats (way high protein given all at one time - they must need the moisture to process the protein properly)

My own experience feeding him and working him has been that foods between 26 and 30% protein allow for him to maintain his muscle mass and preserve endurance-lower levels seem to impair his working endurance and higher levels impact his bloodwork. 

But that is for ocassional working not every day, say like a police service dog (And I know one fellow on our board who is LE and feeds his WORKING police dogs Nutro and they seem to live long healthy lives and work hard). Same thing with a lot of hunting dogs.

All the wild canids on which this prey model is based are on the move a lot more than our own dogs. 

Dogs can burn fat more efficiently than we can and don't need carboydrates but they can still burn them for energy as can we. So why pay out 3lbs of grain to feed my dog the extra lb of chicken he does not need (and factory chicken depleted in nutrients at that) or 22 lbs to make that beef? if he already has enough protein in his diet.

We are sold this thing that we have to feed what sled dogs eat or what wolves ate and our dogs don't live that way and have been domesticated for thousands of years. Yes, I will choose to spend the money to buy a food that does not have animal digest, or menadione, or "meat" meal and do prefer to rotate protein sources (something I could not do on raw without breaking the bank, and think a diet solely of factory raised leg quarters is worse than a well thought out food formulation - for those who do a proper raw diet though, kudos. If I had my way I would raise my own chickens and goats and rabbits organically and feed them to my dogs)

----------------

All we have to do is look at what the excess of *nutritious* food and lack of excercise has done to Western Society....I think our dogs are suffering likewise.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

When I first got Sasha from the rescue, she had been on Purina something or other (I can't remember what kind, but it probably doesn't matter too much), so not knowing any better I kept her on it. She didn't really like it, as a matter of fact her foster mom told me that she usually had to add a little chicken broth to it to get her to eat it. I loved dogs but knew pretty much nothing about their nutritional needs or eating habits, so I just figured she was a picky eater. Her coat was ok, not great but not terrible, so I thought "eh...whatever...food is food." 

Coming on here I learned a little bit more, and God was good enough to put me in a position where I could afford to pay a little more for food, so I tried her on TOTW. She LOVES it! She scarfs that stuff down like there's no tomorrow. She's not a picky eater, she just really really didn't like Purina. I like that I am able to feed her a better quality food than before, but if I couldn't afford it I wouldn't do it. Would I feed her Ol' Roy? Eh...probably not, but if that's all I could afford, I would. I really try to recommend to my friends and family that they try to feed better quality food to their pets (especially the ones that have pets that are doing horribly on the foods they have been on) but at the same time you do what works. 

My cousin recently called me and was telling me how her 14yo dog has been having diarrhea, so she switched him foods to the kind I feed Sasha because she thought he needed something better...while I think it's great that she wants to feed better food, she currently feeds Alpo I think, if I had a dog who was 14 and had been on that same food for most of his life without problems, I would probably keep him on it. Especially since he has all these other health issues. So I guess what I'm saying is it is situational. 

I would LOVE to feed Sasha raw, and had pretty much made up my mind to buy a deep freezer, but now with having just spent close to $1000 on Sasha's heart worm treatment, I am barely going to have enough money to last me until I start my job in a month, so it will have to wait. She'll live.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Tony, this place is a cooperative community where we have open discussions about various issues and not a place for one person to get on a soap box and pontificate, showering their "vast knowledge" down upon us. I dare say many folks on this forum have more knowledge and more experience feeding dogs than you.
> 
> It is also a headache for all of us when somebody decides it is their mission to rock the boat for fun. We just want to talk about things that are important to us and not have to constantly mind one of the Katzenjammer kids.
> 
> ...


Someone asked me a question and I gave them an answer. If someone doesn't like my answer that is that person's opinion. The knowledge you speak of, is based on that person's opinion based on the information they have gathered and processed. The processing of how people process information can and should be question'd. Every post here are based on each person's opinion. Geez, now you are telling me to read about calcium, that's funny to me. Really, what I do for a living really would matter if you knew. This thread *I* started was related to inferior kibble, now look where it has gotten. I was hoping that the posters here, with all their "knowledge", would look at these inferior brands and *investigate* "why" I would knock them. I am well aware that wolfs and other wild dogs were/are scavengers and opportunistic, but meat, is what most of their diet WAS and STILL should be made up of. Time to move on. Have a good day.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Really, what I do for a living really would matter if you knew.


This is the second time you've said this. Ok, I'll bite what do you do for a living?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Who cares? People who make comments like their life/employment is so top-secret rarely really are. What's the point of mentioning it so many times unless you want to draw attention to yourself? Why not just state it in the very beginning? What's so top secret? 

I mean, are you really going to get shot/tailed/loseyourjob/lockedupinBFE posting on a german shepherd forum?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

shepherdmom said:


> This is the second time you've said this. Ok, I'll bite what do you do for a living?


Lets start a game!!!!

Does it start with A?

Now, if you are the person who was supossed to come this morning to fix my washing machine, PLEASE, PLEASE forget any issue between us and start fresh because then... what you do for a living is important to me.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Catu said:


> Lets start a game!!!!
> 
> Does it start with A?
> 
> Now, if you are the person who was supossed to come this morning to fix my washing machine, PLEASE, PLEASE forget any issue between us and start fresh because then... what you do for a living is important to me.


 
LOL

I definitely think we can rule out "English Teacher".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL,

3toes, your vet is happy to have you think that it might have been the food you fed. That takes off any theory that it might have been the shots they gave your dog, in the neck area. And yes, vaccines have been known to cause tumors at the site. That and certain microchips that vets put into our dogs. That and certain flea/tick/heartworm preventatives that we are encouraged by vets to put on our dogs. So go ahead and believe it was the food. My guess is that it is as possible as many, many other things that might have contributed to your dog getting a disease. 

As for not worrying about calcium, well you should. Sorry, but if you are giving meat and bone together, then the bones have the proper calcium/phosphorus ratios and your dog will be fine. But just fresh meat, which no dog will get in the wild, sorry, will throw off the balance. A dog in the wild eats the whole critter, and anything else he can scrounge: grass, roots, berries, pears, fish, garbage are probably eaten farm more frequently than game of any sort. 

And lets talk about game as opposed to chicken or beef raised for the pot. Game tastes "gamey" because critters who are born and raised wild do a lot of running and are very lean and eat what they can get, grass, twigs, and whatever else that might substitute for a regular diet. The meat we buy in stores is kept for the most part in dark pens that restrict movement somewhat and are fed, and over fed to produce an animal that fattens quickly with little to no muscle tone. Years and years ago when our dogs did fine on Purina Dog Chow, and Dads Dog Food, they probably did so because it was made from old worn out work horses, or wild mustangs. The idea of dogs eating horse flesh, wild or worn out, is repulsive to many nowadays, but it probably was closer to what a natural diet would be, specifically if it was ground up, organs, bone, and muscled flesh. 

I throw chicken leg quarters at my dogs once or twice a week usually in lieu of a meal. But I am not fooling myself that that is the kind of food my dog would eat naturally as a wild canine. 

Animals living wild do not fair nearly as well as animals on the kibbles you mentioned. They do not live nearly as long either. So please get over yourself and go and get your very expensive dog food and give it to your dog. Frankly, I think you have been totally sucked in by the very lucrative dog food industry. There is nothing wrong with feeding a decent food, but all you can get from labels is the order in which ingredients go into the bag by weight, nothing about the quality of the ingredients, nor the overall amounts of each item. If you follow chicken meal by brown rice, white rice, rice bran, and rice flour, guess what, you may just have more rice than chicken. Add to that chicken meal that is very low grade or with so much of a percentage of sawdust, rat hair, and fecies in it, and it can really mean your dog isn't getting much of anything good. People are now saying grain free, grain free, so the dog food industry has their answer, instead of corn or rice, they are putting in potatos or beans or peas, and charging you even more. It is a business and the fact is the majority of dogs do thrive on our leftover garbage, and proving that it was dog food that caused a problem is next to impossible, so, dog food companies will put the cheapest ingredients in their products and charge as much as possible for them. That is business. When the dog food bag says, "safe for human consumption" then I will believe that MAYBE they are using higher quality ingredients.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Why is my question funny? I really want to know what you do to balance out the calcium if you are only adding meat and creating an imbalanced diet. It's a perfectly legitimate question. If you don't have the answer, that's ok.





3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I think is funny because
> 1. I have posted many times that I feed Orijen and am adding Pulsar.
> 2. Fresh meat is what dogs were put on this planet to eat, not grains, potatoes, peas, fruits, nuts, vegetables or any other goofy stuff some people think dogs need.
> 3. I really don't care about calcium #'s, I look at quality of food. If your feeding 1 of the foods I listed then your way off base.
> ...



Ok...I'll bite...

1. Do you think I have all the time in the world to follow your posts and note what you are/have been feeding? Do you think I care? 
2. You are wrong. Dogs are omnivores. yes, they should get their protein from meat but that does not mean they don't need veges/fruits.
3. a) You should care about calcium if you are disrupting the balance of the kibble. If you don't, you need to figure out why you should. b) I don't feed kibble at all so you are way off base.
4. Agreed. 
5. Totally irrelevant comment.
6. You said you feed kibble and then add meat as well. Kibbles are designed as a whole, balanced diet. When you add something to it, you need to balance it back out. Not a terribly hard concept to grasp.
7. Will remember that you just like to "rock the boat" in the future and ignore your posts to not give you the satisfaction.
8. Again irrelevant comment and I don't care. If you feel it is that what you do for a living is that important then by all means share with the class.

Now off to lay tracks for my dog with her RAW dinner.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why is it when people don't know the answers to ideas they posed they come up with replies like this that says absolutely nothing? 



3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Someone asked me a question and I gave them an answer. If someone doesn't like my answer that is that person's opinion. The knowledge you speak of, is based on that person's opinion based on the information they have gathered and processed. The processing of how people process information can and should be question'd. Every post here are based on each person's opinion. Geez, now you are telling me to read about calcium, that's funny to me. Really, what I do for a living really would matter if you knew. This thread *I* started was related to inferior kibble, now look where it has gotten. I was hoping that the posters here, with all their "knowledge", would look at these inferior brands and *investigate* "why" I would knock them. I am well aware that wolfs and other wild dogs were/are scavengers and opportunistic, but meat, is what most of their diet WAS and STILL should be made up of. Time to move on. Have a good day.


P.S. Do you own a Sable and can only count to 123?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

This has been such an interesting thread!  However, I think the topic would have been much better received had the OP approached it from a more positive standpoint, i.e. "Top Ten Kibbles I would Recommend" or "Kibble Brands with more bang for your buck" and then add reasoning behind it.

I think when trying to educate the general public, people should be more aware of what can come off as berating or insulting.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Who cares? People who make comments like their life/employment is so top-secret rarely really are. What's the point of mentioning it so many times unless you want to draw attention to yourself? Why not just state it in the very beginning? What's so top secret?
> 
> I mean, are you really going to get shot/tailed/loseyourjob/lockedupinBFE posting on a german shepherd forum?


Oh I have to share this one with you..When my uncle was in the Air Force and we used to see him he would always start off saying "Don't ask me questions about what I do-it's top secret" we never asked, but he never failed to say it- like he WANTED us to pry it out of him.. The family joke was "yes, peeling potatoes is EXtremely TOP SECRET and should not be discussed off base or with us mere civilians"

Maybe he peels potatoes? 

(FYI- came out after my uncle got out of the AF that he was a carpenter)

NOW my brother is in the Navy- has been stationed at Gitmo and is a CorpMan/Medic (spelling?) now what HE did there probably is top secret. Though I did make sure to ask him how many potatoes he could peel in an hour


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Why is it when people don't know the answers to ideas they posed they come up with replies like this that says absolutely nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Do you own a Sable and can only count to 123?


I actually miss him. Can you imagine how interesting this thread would have been then?


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I just have to add that a family friend just had to put their Cocker Spaniel down last month. She ate Iams, and guess how old she was.....20 years!!! Yes, 20!

I think genetics has half or more of the role of what is going to happen health-wise with a dog or even a person. My cousin got lukemia when he was only 3 years old.

However, I do not support practices of using cheap fillers and euthanized animals in pet food with jacked up prices, so I will not purchase 'bottom of the barrell' foods. So, with that aside, I get first and foremost what I can afford to feed my dog, and what works best for him.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

What happened to Sable123?

ETA. Nevermind! I see!


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

this was a great post IMO...can we also get a post on good quality kibble???


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

PupperLove said:


> What happened to Sable123?
> 
> ETA. Nevermind! I see!


He's moved onto other boards pulling the same crap he was doing here.

I've got a funny feeling he's not going to show his face around here anytime soon.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> He's moved onto other boards pulling the same crap he was doing here.
> 
> I've got a funny feeling he's not going to show his face around here anytime soon.


He's banned. Then came back under a different name but same lovely personality and easily spotted...soooo...banned again.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Maybe he's off peeling potatoes. 

(Great post, DM!)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> He's banned. Then came back under a different name but same lovely personality and easily spotted...soooo...banned again.


do tell, what other name?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't remember. It was a few weeks ago. He was easy to spot.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> do tell, what other name?


He's tomtommy in the thread.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/178508-annamaet-dog-food-better-than-orijen.html




Jax08 said:


> He's banned. Then came back under a different name but same lovely personality and easily spotted...soooo...banned again.


I know... I just meant he's not coming back even with any of his aliases.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I find it rather amusing that the OP thought it was "Time to rock the boat", stated that they "Loved to rock the boat", and then when the boat started rocking, they declared that they were jumping ship.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lakl, immediately, I thought of this:


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Someone asked me a question and I gave them an answer. If someone doesn't like my answer that is that person's opinion. The knowledge you speak of, is based on that person's opinion based on the information they have gathered and processed. The processing of how people process information can and should be question'd. Every post here are based on each person's opinion. Geez, now you are telling me to read about calcium, that's funny to me. Really, what I do for a living really would matter if you knew. This thread *I* started was related to inferior kibble, now look where it has gotten. I was hoping that the posters here, with all their "knowledge", would look at these inferior brands and *investigate* "why" I would knock them. I am well aware that wolfs and other wild dogs were/are scavengers and opportunistic, but meat, is what most of their diet WAS and STILL should be made up of. Time to move on. Have a good day.



What stands out to me is this: "This thread I started was related to inferior kibble".

Says YOU. This post was based on YOUR OPINION. So why knock anyone elses? And just for fun, I'll ask too; what DO you do for a living? You've yet to answer. Never answered when you personally took the time to private message me, calling me a "pin headed idiot on the low pay scale" either. I'll take a guess that you either flip burgers or build burritos and just want to act like you're some big money maker. :rofl:


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Lakl, immediately, I thought of this:
> 
> Hues Corporation - Rock the Boat - YouTube


Haaaa!! Love it!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Called you a what???? Nice...very nice....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought starting threads specifically to "rock the boat" was actually frowned upon here.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Actually (for anyone who cares to know)......Wolves eat berries, roots, dirt, pre-digested grains from the intestines of their prey, fruit (Wolves in Italy actually invade the grape fields and eat the grapes), and many other things....so *perhaps*...one should do more actual research before making some statements.
> 
> Wild animals will eat *anything* to survive.....there are no ratios....only survival.


I spent 6 years observing and researching a pack of wolves, then went on into the Animal Care field to further my education in Animal Care and Animal Biology. Continued to take on wolf biology as a hobby. I did my research.


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