# Educate me please- trying to understand a breeder



## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Hello!

We were at a friend's house today who has a GSD from Black Magic in CA. I'm not personally interested in a dog from them (we have actually just put a deposit on a puppy from Weberhaus - very exciting!!). Anyway I was checking out the Black Magic website but I couldn't understand if their dogs are American Showline or German Showline? How can you tell?

I hadn't heard of this breeder so was just curious. 

I have learned so much in the last few months and I hope to continue learning!

Thanks!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

they are from old lines, Doc here on the board is the expert with this kennel...maybe he'll chime in or you can do a search, there is at least one thread explaining the history of his lines, though not certain if the kennel in CA is producing the same type.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

They are neither. They breed out of standard pet dogs. They follow no line. Possibly if you go way back in the pedigree you will figure out where some came from. But they don't have the pedigrees on the website that I could find.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> they are from old lines, Doc here on the board is the expert with this kennel...maybe he'll chime in or you can do a search, there is at least one thread explaining the history of his lines.


I did do a search but the threads I found seemed to be a lot of discussion about size. I didn't see anything about history, but I'll look again. Thanks for the head's up!

BTW- Our friend is super happy with his dog. The dog is very nice (and yes, big), he seems happy and healthy. Our friend said he thinks they are German Showline breeders, but wasn't sure.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/108443-any-information-breeder.html
Doc had East Coast Black Magic GSD's, now KHawk is running the kennel. The West coast was an extension of his. I'm sure he'll be flattered that I know so much about him, lol. not 
There is a fb page, seems the website is not current at all. https://www.facebook.com/pages/East-Coast-Black-Magic-German-Shepherds/186934876287?fref=ts


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

agreeing with gsdar.... although from appearance some of their dogs look to have some german showline lineage - as a whole, they are not breeding one specific line or to any breed standard, so there are likely some american dogs as well as working line dogs mixed in as well.


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone! That makes sense as to why our friend seemed unsure what the lines are on his dog. 

Jane, thank you for posting that link, I read all 20 pages! very interesting, I enjoyed seeing the different sides.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That was a pretty interesting thread. Preserving the great working qualities of the old lines by doing nothing with them beyond "You can trust me, I've been around a long time" Claims of a trial fiasco for a cgc that had gun shots?? Sounds like somebody's a little confused or possibly making something up? 

The best part was the Shepherd clearing that kennel the way she did. That was pretty nice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It says on their site their dogs are now 7th or 8th generation of their own breeding/lines, so they are not breeding with the intent of preserving the types you have listed. I would not call them American or German show line, and I doubt this breeder would either as the site says their foundation dogs were mixing lines and they have now bred 7+ generations from there.


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## BMGSD (Jun 2, 2016)

Black Magic German Shepherds is MY business, which I have run for 40 years this year. DOC or anyone else is not the originator nor are they a part of this business. The WEST coast Black Magic kennel has been in business since 1976. East Coast Black Magic GSD were allowed to breed our lines for a short period of time but are not now. (Ask Doc exactly how long he has bred GSD ) If anyone is truly interested in knowing our bloodlines, why don't you just ask? I can trace our dogs back 15 generation and yes they come from stellar lines. Our dogs have OFA hip and elbow ratings, Penn Hip, DM, and RD tests done on them before they are bred. Most of our lines have been monitored for health not just litter to litter, but aunts, uncles, grandparents, brothers and sisters in litters. Mary at Dogenes, who does genetic testing, called us to tell us we have the nicest GSD she has ever seen. We produce many service and therapy dogs. If you read bad stuff about us here or anywhere else rest assured it is our competition trying to discredit us. Just like anything else online... if you want the truth go to the source and ask questions. Wendy Lumbert Black Magic German Shepherds


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

BMGSD said:


> Black Magic German Shepherds is MY business, which I have run for 40 years this year. DOC or anyone else is not the originator nor are they a part of this business. The WEST coast Black Magic kennel has been in business since 1976. East Coast Black Magic GSD were allowed to breed our lines for a short period of time but are not now. (Ask Doc exactly how long he has bred GSD ) If anyone is truly interested in knowing our bloodlines, why don't you just ask? I can trace our dogs back 15 generation and yes they come from stellar lines. Our dogs have OFA hip and elbow ratings, Penn Hip, DM, and RD tests done on them before they are bred. Most of our lines have been monitored for health not just litter to litter, but aunts, uncles, grandparents, brothers and sisters in litters. Mary at Dogenes, who does genetic testing, called us to tell us we have the nicest GSD she has ever seen. We produce many service and therapy dogs. If you read bad stuff about us here or anywhere else rest assured it is our competition trying to discredit us. Just like anything else online... if you want the truth go to the source and ask questions. Wendy Lumbert Black Magic German Shepherds


The TRUTH shall set you free!

Salute to you!

GOD HONOR COUNTRY!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

is "stellar" American or german lines? I believe that was the original question...


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Fodder said:


> is "stellar" American or german lines? I believe that was the original question...


You might want to ask DOC I believe that was the early suggestion! :wink2:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

BMGSD said:


> Black Magic German Shepherds is MY business, which I have run for 40 years this year. DOC or anyone else is not the originator nor are they a part of this business. The WEST coast Black Magic kennel has been in business since 1976. East Coast Black Magic GSD were allowed to breed our lines for a short period of time but are not now. (Ask Doc exactly how long he has bred GSD ) If anyone is truly interested in knowing our bloodlines, why don't you just ask? I can trace our dogs back 15 generation and yes they come from stellar lines. Our dogs have OFA hip and elbow ratings, Penn Hip, DM, and RD tests done on them before they are bred. Most of our lines have been monitored for health not just litter to litter, but aunts, uncles, grandparents, brothers and sisters in litters. Mary at Dogenes, who does genetic testing, called us to tell us we have the nicest GSD she has ever seen. We produce many service and therapy dogs. If you read bad stuff about us here or anywhere else rest assured it is our competition trying to discredit us. Just like anything else online... if you want the truth go to the source and ask questions. Wendy Lumbert Black Magic German Shepherds


Look at that, piggybacking on the prestige of this long established kennel. If that's what Mary said, that's all I need to know. Thanks for clearing it all up!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Look at that, piggybacking on the prestige of this long established kennel. If that's what Mary said, that's all I need to know. Thanks for clearing it all up!


No one could have said it better! Awesome comment....!

And people are wondering what is wrong with the world today!

It is very clear in my mind... Great Post Steve!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Took me a minute to realize that this was an old post that's been resurrected by Black Magic for whatever reason. Anyway....



Steve Strom said:


> Look at that, piggybacking on the prestige of this long established kennel. If that's what Mary said, that's all I need to know. Thanks for clearing it all up!


I don't understand the sarcasm...."piggybacking"?? How do you start a breeding program without using dogs from other bloodlines and doesn't it only make sense to work with breeders you share the same philosophy with?


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Took me a minute to realize that this was an old post that's been resurrected by Black Magic for whatever reason. Anyway....
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand the sarcasm...."piggybacking"?? How do you start a breeding program without using dogs from other bloodlines and doesn't it only make sense to work with breeders you share the same philosophy with?



Using existing work or an existing product as a basis or support without the authorization of its owner is unethical. Seems to me the owner has made it clear that at one point it may have been acceptable but is no longer.

The reason is to clarify the position regarding the situation as it stands today.

Still waiting to hear from DOC!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

ipopro said:


> Using existing work or an existing product as a basis or support without the authorization of its owner is unethical. Seems to me the owner has made it clear that at one point it may have been acceptable but is no longer.
> The reason is to clarify the position regarding the situation as it stands today.
> Still waiting to hear from DOC!


Did it ever occur to you that Wendy was responding to a post Doc didn't write? Re-read the thread. Onyx'girl posted something last August that said:
_Doc had East Coast Black Magic GSD's, now KHawk is running the kennel. The West coast was an extension of his. I'm sure he'll be flattered that I know so much about him, lol. not_

The information didn't come from Doc*. *


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Did it ever occur to you that Wendy was responding to a post Doc didn't write? Re-read the thread. Onyx'girl posted something last August that said:
> _Doc had East Coast Black Magic GSD's, now KHawk is running the kennel. The West coast was an extension of his. I'm sure he'll be flattered that I know so much about him, lol. not_
> 
> The information didn't come from Doc*. *


Thank you for explaining. I read it quickly and wasn't sure what was going on. How easily rumors start online. I'm still trying to figure out why an old thread was resurrected by a brand new poster.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think this thread borders on breeder bashing. I don't know why we should be writing disparaging comments about this kennel or doc in the open forum.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think this thread borders on breeder bashing. I don't know why we should be writing disparaging comments about this kennel or doc in the open forum.


Sorry, I wasn't meaning to do that. It just didn't make sense why someone posted a comment to an old thread that didn't seem to follow. Maybe start a new thread without the bashes?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you for explaining. I read it quickly and wasn't sure what was going on. How easily rumors start online. I'm still trying to figure out why an old thread was resurrected by a brand new poster.


The old thread was probably sent to the breeder who responded and they didn't realize it took place a year ago. 

It fits right into the discussion on this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/633898-manners-internet-agendas.html


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Took me a minute to realize that this was an old post that's been resurrected by Black Magic for whatever reason. Anyway....
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand the sarcasm...."piggybacking"?? How do you start a breeding program without using dogs from other bloodlines and doesn't it only make sense to work with breeders you share the same philosophy with?


It was directed straight at the post quoted. Nothing to do with the dogs at all, no bashing. Just a comment on the desire to post it.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/108443-any-information-breeder.html
> Doc had East Coast Black Magic GSD's, now KHawk is running the kennel. The West coast was an extension of his. I'm sure he'll be flattered that I know so much about him, lol. not
> There is a fb page, seems the website is not current at all. https://www.facebook.com/pages/East-Coast-Black-Magic-German-Shepherds/186934876287?fref=ts


I must correct this misapprehension. I do not 'run' Black Magic kennel here in Calif, nor do I have anything to do with that kennel. I am not in any way associated with that kennel, nor am I even acquainted with the people who do own the kennel. Khawk


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

My gosh. I'm sure no one will trust what I have to say. I started East Coast Black Magic German shepherds, with the permission and encouragement of Wendy from Black Magic German shepherds about the time she returned to California from North Carolina. Under a gentle mens agreement - yes we both did and still do trust each other and strive to breed healthy German shepherds. I have never claimed that I was in anyway in charge of BMGS kennel. We were "partners". That partnership is no longer. The logistics of being partners is difficult when you are on opposite sides of the country. The partnership ended like it started - friends who trust each other. With the end of the partnership came the end of East Coast Black Magic German shepherds. 
I have continued to research and analyze German shepherds bloodlines and am in the process of building a breeding program that will hopefully create and place German shepherds back into the guide dog service along with wheelchair assistance. That breeding program is the foundation of Khawk Kennels. The bloodlines are or will be made up of old American lines ( going back to the old LongWorth Kennel), old German Highlines, and old East German lines. Dogs from these lines are currently working in SAR, wheelchair assistance, and in therapy work.
I hope this information illuminates and straightens out the misunderstanding that seems to be taken as the truth by some. I am happy to discuss my breeding program with anyone. However, to avoid unnecessary banter for those who like to take sniper shots at me, I will discuss my dogs and breeding program via PM.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Did it ever occur to you that Wendy was responding to a post Doc didn't write? Re-read the thread. Onyx'girl posted something last August that said:
> _Doc had East Coast Black Magic GSD's, now KHawk is running the kennel. The West coast was an extension of his. I'm sure he'll be flattered that I know so much about him, lol. not_
> 
> The information didn't come from Doc*. *


I must say that it indeed did upon reading the post the TRUTH from Wendy. I have awaited Doc's reply which we now have. You asked specific questions and I simply defined the words of those in a response LOL LOL LOL.

As Wendy and Doc have both said, if you want to know the truth PM or Call and ask because the BS people post on here is exactly that BS!

Your opinion my opinion don't count the parties responsible for these actions do however and we now can see the light. :grin2:


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