# Not normal puppy behavior, I do not know what to do.



## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Hi, I'm new to these forums, and I've seen many similar threads to mine, but none of them are helping me, because I've attempted everything those people suggested. 

Let me start off to say that I'm 17 years old, and I live in a large house with at least 12 people living in here (all family.)

This is my first GSD puppy, I've always been in-love with the breed and before I ever owned one I've always researched about them watched training videos and lots of stuff, so I knew I was prepared for a dog, and or puppy and had a very positive attitude when the idea came that I was getting a German Shepherd puppy... And now I just really want to say..

It really sucks. I want to cry, because of how exhausting this all is, 

Before I start talking about everything I'm gonna list his problems;

* Does not potty outside, I take him out to grassy areas that are fenced up, bring his toys, and play with him outside for a long time, until he's tired out, and let him chase me. The moment he gets home he pees & poos in the house, or on the balcony.

* Knows a few things like, sit, off, and come and his name. Does not respond unless he feels like it and or if I have a treat.

* Puts his whole mouth on anyone, including kids of the age of 12, and bites really hard, and bites any hands he sees really hard. He drew blood on my 15 year old brother 5 times. Ran after my little brothers 12 year old friend and bit her leg and held onto it. Bites really hard, can't teach him bite inhibition because he doesn't respond to "ouch!" And if you walk away, he basically attacks you, by biting your leg, biting harder and harder.

* Cannot be redirected with a toy because he has no interest in any of his toys, he rather bite your hand, or any human thing, so textbook, shoes etc.

* Still bites insanely hard even when tired out.

*Humped people at 8 - 9 weeks, humped at least 5 times.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Are you crate training puppy?

Do not play with him outside UNTIL he does his business. 

Take him from his crate, to outside, give command for potty, reward when he pitties, bring him back inside. Then go back out to play. You need to separate the two things. 

Put the pup on a tether. Do not let him chase and grab on to people. 

How long have you had him! How old is he. Puppies learn through repetition. So if you are trying something and it doesn't work, it doesn't mean it won't work. But you actually have to give them time to learn. 

Did you learn to add the first time you tried?


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## Emily42 (May 2, 2016)

Crate training is the best way to potty train your pup because a shot won't pee or poo where it sleeps (unless you leave it for hours on end and it has no choice) before you put your pup in his crate make sure he has food and water so when he cries you know its only because he has to use the restroom. It's hard at first because he will need to get used to the crate and it will be kind of confusing but honestly once you're consistent with it you will know how to differ his cries. All puppies want to do is play so if he's biting on hands and feet put him in a time out area that has no toys and he can't see anyone only for a couple of minutes and then bring him back out. Make EVERYTHING about rewards, he gives you something you give back. EX: (if you're not free feeding) Before you put his food bowl down have him sit and let his food be the reward. Let him know he must give to receive. What worked for my pup is toys that made a good amount of noise. At first I had to make home made toys so I crumpled up some paper and put it in a sock, gave him water bottles, anything that would keep his attention. He likes hands and feet A. because all he wants is to play. He is not trying to hurt you, puppies explore with their mouths. (try the yelping and ignoring it won't stop biting but it will give him a softer mouth) B. Hands and feet are moving so it will grab his attention. In response to "does not respond without reward" he's a baby and he is still learning, it may take a bit to just respond to commands. 

I HAD THE SAME CONCERNS but with consistency you will see change. I listened to what experienced owners from this site were telling me I needed to do and trust me these things will work they just take time. Some pups are more stubborn. Patience is key.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

How old is he now? I'll repeat a lot of what gsdsar said, because the details are what makes the difference. You have to think about everything in small, single pieces to train it. Like was said, the potty training has to be very direct. Enough things are distracting to a puppy without us adding toys and play to it. Directly to the potty area and nothing till he goes. No reward or exciting praise. Just calm, matter of fact, then move away to do something else. The way gsdsar mentioned separating by going in then coming back out to play is a good help for narrowing things down to focus on the potty training. It creates a one thing at a time routine.

I keep a light leash on them all the time except when they're crated or in an xpen contained so they can't get into anything. Its easier to keep them under control with a leash then trying to grab them, which brings your hands too much into focus. The other part of that is some of them aren't ready for the type of affection, petting, hugging, stuff you want them to be into. They can find it too restrictive and they resist it, usually by biting. 

The training and treats thing is basically the same idea as the potty training. A clear beginning and a clear ending. Tell him Ready, work with him, tell him done, put him away. It makes that time mean something to him.

Don't cry. There's no crying in dog training. I think that was in Turner and Hootch.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Just wanted to add; WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG:

_*Here's the story; *_

Weeks back, my mother decided on buying a protection dog for the family, but I didn't care about having a protection dog, I just happy that I was acquiring one of my favorite breeds, and wanted a best friend.. So a friend of ours week beforehand who's GSD passed away recommended us to the breeder she got her amazing dog from, she was also going to get a puppy for herself from the breeder, so we then all of us booked an appointment to go see the breeder, we were impressed by her dogs and her main show dog gorgeous sire, then she also showed us the parents to her current litters. The breeder then told us she has no problem selling the pups so she doesn't care if we put a deposit on the last one or not, my sister fell in-love with the puppies, and decided to put the deposit down on the last male.. We weren't allowed to select our puppy keep in mind (because people had already reserved their pup EVEN before they were born), during the appointment when we saw them there was already a family there, playing with them the breeder didn't allow us to play with them only go in their pen with them while they were sleeping and pick them up, and play in the pen. My sister than put down the deposit because she fell in-love with them all.

1 Week later, we had a whole week to prepare for our new puppy, I told my sister to buy everything he needs now, that means, toys, a crate, his food (call the breeder and ask her what brand, etc.), and a bunch more of other stuff. My sister kept telling me no, because "we don't have him yet" which bothered me.. Week later, it was pickup day, instead of my sister bringing me, she brought her friend who owns a miniature pinscher, and because she owns one she was automatically a dog expert in my sister's eyes, so, the day they picked up our puppy, her friend convinced her to get the last pup who seemed shy as he hid under this car decor thing at the breeders, also squirmed a bit when picked up...

_By the way before you read this part, keep in mind I had told my sister weeks beforehand to watch training videos.. _

Problem #1: Skip the story, we finally brought our puppy home (yay!) We only had a leash and collar for him, because my sister didn't wanna buy stuff beforehand, but later in the night the day we brought him home, we brought the crate and treats, and all of that. Problem is, we never had the correct food, because my sister was afraid of calling the breeder and asking what kind of food he was eating (the breeder seems mean towards her).. So my sister bought a different raw food brand that was completely different. Our puppy has now been switched on the correct food but only eats little amounts, he's 10 weeks old and weighs 20 pounds.. He never wants to eat, only a little bit, but will drink loads of water.

Problem #2 The day we got him we didn't have a crate until night time, my sister took her friends advice as in; "put him in the crate and close the door." I told my sister not to do that you have to gradually allow him to get use to the crate, as in introduce him and let him explore, treat him etc. Like in the training videos and books, but she refused to listen to me, instead she stuck him in there and closed the door and let him cry all night, at times I sneaked in and opened the crate door and comforted him, and left it open while I sat infront, petting him, till he calms down and falls asleep. This seemed to help him a lot.. But, times we do put him in he cries, but then passes out.

Problem #3 Potty training him. My sister kept letting him go on our balcony (which is ridiculous, we don't live in an apartment) I told her not to do this, but she kept doing it, so now he goes outside on the balcony, but not anywhere else unless it's inside the house in the same corner... I take him every day outside, for a short walk, then take him to a park which is 1 minute away from us.. It isn't a dog park, it's fenced in and a great size, I let him run around and chase me and I bring his toys to play with him to tire him out, even if we're there for such a long time not once will he poop and or pee, but the moment we get to the house, he pees on the floor... Or on the balcony...

Problem #4 Training him... On the first week everyone was trying to train him, and put him on a leash and everything, expecting him to know to do everything.. When I told them he cannot do everything he's a baby they wouldn't listen though.. I then taught him how to sit, and he responds when I say sit, but I have to say the word a couple of times before he does it, sometimes he'll do it straight away, most of the time I have to repeat myself. We're in a household of 12 people, everyone crowds around, making it very hard to train him.. He knows his name as well, and "come" and "off" but he only responds to these whenever he feels like it. 

Problem #5 Hardcore biting... When we got him he was never a biter, he was very gentle, days later, my brother started sticking his hands in his mouth promoting him to bite my brother, he then finally bit my brother, and my brother was laughing, and kept making him bite more, my brother then laid on the ground and getting him to bite my brother, while shoving him back, laughing .. Then it got out of hand where my brother yelled "STOP! STOP!" but he wouldn't stop so my brother kept shoving him back and letting him bite and play with him.. Ever since this, he starts biting us roughly, putting his entire mouth on our leg putting his full force baby teeth on our legs, when he sees our hands, same thing, and refuses to go for a toy, but only our hands. Redirection and everything recommended to us does NOT work because he's stubborn and wants to do what he wants.

Problem #6 Humping, at 8 weeks old he was humping things, he's humped my sister twice now, and today he humped a towel, is this normal?

Problem #7 His behavior is amazing when we're in public though, he barks at no one, and or anything, in the car he falls asleep instantly, when meeting new people he's slightly shy, but doesn't jump all over them or any of that.

Are all of these behaviors normal for an 10 week old puppy, how can I correct exactly each and every one of them?

I know this is a lot to say, I'm sorry, you guys have every right to yell at me, it's my fault. I want to cry, and feel like I've already ruined everything, to where I cannot fix it, I don't know what to do.. I love my puppy though, and refuse to give him up, so please don't recommend me that as an option. I've even called the breeder and asked her what to do, she told me she doesn't know what to do because none of her pups have done that.. So I don't know.

Everyone is telling me the same things as well, and I'm not seeing any improvements. In 2 weeks he gets his second shot and will be allowed to go to obedience school.. But, he's already drawn blood over 5 times, especially on 12 - 15 year olds, it's that out of hand, currently...


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> Are you crate training puppy?
> 
> Do not play with him outside UNTIL he does his business.
> 
> ...


I just posted the whole story, my sister messed up the whole crate training process and wouldn't allow me to do it because she rather listen to her friends. He does go in his crate himself and sleep at times, but when we put him in there now, he'll sometimes pass out right away, other times he'll cry for a while then pass out. He's never done his business in there once. On the first day, instead of my sister allowing me to properly crate train him with treats, she stuck him in the crate, closed it and let him cry all night.. Because her friend said so. In the middle of the night I would get up and open the door, let him calm down and re-enter himself, and pet him over and over till he fell asleep, then close it.

I was told every 2 hours to take him out to potty, by picking him up and running outside, but again, my sister took control and decided just to open the balcony door and let him go on the balcony with me scrubbing it and cleaning it all the time expecting him to go on the puppy pads, I then told her that's not the proper way to do that, so now he'll only go inside the house or on the balcony.

I will tether him for now on, I put him on the leash a bit ago and supervised him rather then allow him to roam, the whole entire 30 minutes, he would purposely fall hard on his back on the fluffy carpet, try to bite things, and cry/whine, and get very frustrated, then fell asleep. I will do that more often though.

We got him at 8 weeks and 1 day, he's now 10 weeks. And, I know about that, I've been sticking to the same two things, first if I play, I won't even roughly play with him because I'm a laid back person I don't hype him up, but then he'll randomly start biting, if we're playing tug or with any of his other toys, so I'll redirect him on another toy, instead he avoids the toy instantly and goes strictly for my hand, and once he gets my hand he puts his whole mouth and start biting (which my brother ALLOWED him to do.) I'll then instantly end play time, but he'll follow after me and put his whole mouth on my leg and pants, and bite down. He's ruined a couple of my pants now for doing that.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Yes, these are all normal for a 10 week old puppy. Read more. Also, you don't take a 10 week old puppy, teach him once and expect it to stick for the rest of his life. You should be ready to teach him for the next two years. Teach him, repeat, repeat, repeat, praise. Be clear, be consistent, be fair. You haven't given enough time and effort to have some of these methods work. 

It really sounds like you could be best helped by hiring a trainer who can work with you for several months. Your expectations are not realistic for a puppy. I hope you will commit yourself for the next two years. Slow down, let the puppy play and bond with you. 

Potty training will come but rarely at 10 weeks old. Be consistent. By 18 weeks he will have it down. Have you ever heard of a baby learning not to poop his diapers with one or two sessions? It take time and maturity.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Emily42 said:


> Crate training is the best way to potty train your pup because a shot won't pee or poo where it sleeps (unless you leave it for hours on end and it has no choice) before you put your pup in his crate make sure he has food and water so when he cries you know its only because he has to use the restroom. It's hard at first because he will need to get used to the crate and it will be kind of confusing but honestly once you're consistent with it you will know how to differ his cries. All puppies want to do is play so if he's biting on hands and feet put him in a time out area that has no toys and he can't see anyone only for a couple of minutes and then bring him back out. Make EVERYTHING about rewards, he gives you something you give back. EX: (if you're not free feeding) Before you put his food bowl down have him sit and let his food be the reward. Let him know he must give to receive. What worked for my pup is toys that made a good amount of noise. At first I had to make home made toys so I crumpled up some paper and put it in a sock, gave him water bottles, anything that would keep his attention. He likes hands and feet A. because all he wants is to play. He is not trying to hurt you, puppies explore with their mouths. (try the yelping and ignoring it won't stop biting but it will give him a softer mouth) B. Hands and feet are moving so it will grab his attention. In response to "does not respond without reward" he's a baby and he is still learning, it may take a bit to just respond to commands.
> 
> I HAD THE SAME CONCERNS but with consistency you will see change. I listened to what experienced owners from this site were telling me I needed to do and trust me these things will work they just take time. Some pups are more stubborn. Patience is key.


He's gotten use to his crate, he's never peed, or pooped in there, he wakes me up everyday at 6 AM and we let him out to do his business, but like I said he'll only go on the balcony because of what my sister let him do (he never goes outside, only rarely, but moment we get home he pees / poos, if he cannot get to the balcony), so everyday I have to scrub it down, or he'll go in the same spot he peed / pooped in the house, despite me trying to clean it with multiple things to get the smell out, he still goes. Sometimes when I'm so tired because there is nights where I help people so I'm up till 4 AM, and rarely get sleep, so I'll let him out his crate to go outside, but he won't go in our backyard, so I wait there for a good hour till he goes to the bathroom, but he won't go in the yard, so I assume he doesn't have to go potty, so I end up falling asleep, with him curled up in front of me since I'm so tired to put him back in his crate, and then hours later when I wake up I'll find his business on the floor in the same spot, in the corner of one of the rooms.

Yelping doesn't work  it seems to promote him to do it more and harder, he barks and wags his tail, and then starts biting our legs again.

Problem with his food too, he will not eat, he only eats little amounts, I feed him twice a day, which I was told to do by the vet, and the vet gave me a certain food for him for now.. I always make him sit when I hand it to him, which he does, but will eat a bit, and then he's done for the whole day, so lately I've been trying to hand feed him one by one, I don't know if it's because his mouth hurts so bad from teething, maybe? That's why he doesn't wanna eat. He's 20 pounds, almost 21 pounds, at 10 weeks. The vet said he was perfectly healthy, so I'm not 100% sure.. I need to take one of his poo samples to make sure he has no worms.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> Yes, these are all normal for a 10 week old puppy. Read more. Also, you don't take a 10 week old puppy, teach him once and expect it to stick for the rest of his life. You should be ready to teach him for the next two years. Teach him, repeat, repeat, repeat, praise. Be clear, be consistent, be fair. You haven't given enough time and effort to have some of these methods work.
> 
> It really sounds like you could be best helped by hiring a trainer who can work with you for several months. Your expectations are not realistic for a puppy. I hope you will commit yourself for the next two years. Slow down, let the puppy play and bond with you.
> 
> Potty training will come but rarely at 10 weeks old. Be consistent. By 18 weeks he will have it down. Have you ever heard of a baby learning not to poop his diapers with one or two sessions? It take time and maturity.


Oh, I'm aware of this, I tried to do 2 - 5 minute training sessions every hour or so, I ran out of his liver treats, so I need to go walk and pick up some more, I'm completely ok with everything else because I can fix it, but the drawing blood issue, and the biting is so out of hand it's scaring me. It's very hard to train a puppy when there is 12 people in the household crowing us, and everyone wanting to teach him a certain way, it's been giving me a headache.

I bring him everywhere I go as well, and doing everything I can to bond with him, but then the biting becomes a big problem because it really hurts for such a small 10 week old puppy, I think he bites me softer than he bites my brothers.

And I'm committed to teaching him 100% for the next two years <3 :grin2: I love him to death, he's a very good dog, like I said though the biting is scaring me because I don't know if he's going through a really bad teething phase, or if it'll grow in such a bad uncontrollable habit to where he needs to be re-homed. And, I am considering of hiring a personal trainer, then at 12 weeks bringing him to obedience school, because it's very hard to train him with so many people.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> How old is he now? I'll repeat a lot of what gsdsar said, because the details are what makes the difference. You have to think about everything in small, single pieces to train it. Like was said, the potty training has to be very direct. Enough things are distracting to a puppy without us adding toys and play to it. Directly to the potty area and nothing till he goes. No reward or exciting praise. Just calm, matter of fact, then move away to do something else. The way gsdsar mentioned separating by going in then coming back out to play is a good help for narrowing things down to focus on the potty training. It creates a one thing at a time routine.
> 
> I keep a light leash on them all the time except when they're crated or in an xpen contained so they can't get into anything. Its easier to keep them under control with a leash then trying to grab them, which brings your hands too much into focus. The other part of that is some of them aren't ready for the type of affection, petting, hugging, stuff you want them to be into. They can find it too restrictive and they resist it, usually by biting.
> 
> ...


My baby is 10 weeks old currently. I will do that, thanks, should I keep him on the leash all the time for now on, everyone has been telling me that, keep him on the leash and make him follow you every where you go in the house, I know GSD's are a favorite picking dog most of the time and tend to bond with ONE person more than others, as they're very loyal, so he seems to be a mess while doing his own thing around the house, so should I keep him on the leash for now on until he's old enough?

I tend to take off his leash and collar most of the time in the house because of his growing neck but i'll stop that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Stop the insanity. 
the pup wasn't parachuted into a normal environment so how can the dog possibly be any different.
forget the "protection dog" element --- the dog needs to be totally stable and able to make appropriate
decisions. This expectation does not eliminate portions of training . The dog still , even more so, needs
to be under control.


10 weeks old and it is run ragged till it is beyond exhausted - not good.
playing chase games promotes you as prey and that includes catch and hold = that grip 
where is the manual on circus mikurkus playing with the pups that every one seems to follow?


stop doing this " I take him every day outside, for a short walk, then take him to a park which is 1 minute away from us.. It isn't a dog park, it's fenced in and a great size, I let him run around and chase me and I bring his toys to play with him to tire him out,"
It is too much . 
When you take him out don't focus on the sit . Focus on mastering the how to move with you , which means no pulling ,staying on one side , not crossing in front, or behind , having some attention on you , not sniffing and stopping when he wants --- YOUR walk , he's going with you , not the other way around .


when people had dog sense , the dog became a member of the group and had to learn to adapt .


the dog is an apprentice to life - what ever your life style is . 


to simplify things until everyone is on the same page ONE person, probably you , will be in charge of
the dogs entire schedule and training 


sorry little brother , you are acting like an animal - how do you expect the dog to respond --
get little brother (and sister) out of the picture
also - the dog isn't stubborn , he has been ramped up beyond a point where he is able to control his drive 
that's a people created problem 


if he humps don't draw attention to it making it exciting because it gets attention -- get up and walk away 


get a crate 


USE the crate , which is to put dog in, close the door , give the dog peace and privacy (GO AWAY)
matter of fact - no teary departure , no "you're alive" greetings when it is time to come out 
make sure all needs have been met - the dog has had opportunity to do potty business , has had
water , has had some food
you didn't help anything by sneaking in and opening the door and stroking the dog till he slept.


be consistent -- one night you are there soothing (not really) the dog , another night he cries to sleep 
he will accept the routine , and later on choose it for himself .


get a quality food --- drinking loads of water may be because the food (kibble?) is very dry and
or the dog needs to eliminate waste more ---- the "cleaner" the food the less taxing on liver and kidneys


forget the treats 


potty training . Choose a spot that you want this dog to use as a potty area. The dog goes there and is allowed
to do his business without toys, treats, stimulation of any sort. You can build a temporary enclosure using a large
x-pen and some shavings. To make it secure you may want to pound in some stakes in the 4 corners and one at
each side of the doorway . Put pup in . You can go away or wait a little ways away so that the dog doesn't feel 
pressure to be social with you and not do his business.
Once this area has caught on the x-pen can be removed and the dog will continue to use that spot .
Almost like a kitty-litter box idea.
As soon as pup wakes up or is out of his crate he goes to the "potty".


"I've even called the breeder and asked her what to do, she told me she doesn't know what to do because none of her pups have done that.. So I don't know."
To this I say , some breeder . Sorry . Not impressed.
You have people on this forum who are not breeders giving you some good advice.


I know what I am talking about . Big revelation .
I do have a 10 week old pup myself at this very moment.


I think I am going to have to start some new threads.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sounds to me like this pup IS potty trained, it know to go on the balcony and did you say one corner of the house? 

#1 those areas need to be scrubbed with enzyme cleaner. 

#2 think about how puppy learned to go there a d re apply to appropriate areas, maybe including physically blocking access to the previous illegal potty locations.

#3, after puppies run and play they need to go, so, when I play with mine I will often put all the toys away at the end, get serious, tell him to go and be a boring old chaperone until he does. Sometimes it is worth it to whip out the toy for one last littlr game as reward for potty so puppy does not learn that potty = all fun is over. If not still big praise or cookies or both for pottying in desired location and/or on command.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

Yep. I learned the hard way that when it's more than just you in the house, either EVERYONE has to be on board with the EXACT same training methods, or YOU have to take on the responsibility of doing all the training yourself. Otherwise, if everyone is doing something different with the dog, they'll never end up properly trained.

Sadly, it sounds like you're fine doing all the training, but your family member(s) keep interfering and trying to do things their own way. You've got to sit down and have a talk with them; kind of a "it's my way or the highway" sort of deal.

Dogs need consistency. Especially at such a young age. I can tell you mean well and seem to be trying your best but unless you can get your family to either train the puppy the right way or leave all the training to you, I don't see your dog ending up very happy or well-trained :\


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Maybe, show your family these answering posts. Just copy and paste them if you don't want them to read everything you've shared with us. And maybe copy some of the threads that show the difficulties that people have when their puppies get bigger, without solid consistent training. It may be a good way to get everyone on the same page, and off to a fresh start.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

honestly all this stuff sounds super normal for someone who is just doing things a little bit inconsistently lol.

The biting always goes like that. they're getting used to you for a few days and the terror doesnt start until a few days/week later, and it's a longish phase. They do that. They are called land sharks for a reason.

Your family member didn't screw up crate training, opening the door and comforting theml when they scream is what screws up crate training. my male screamedfor almost a week in his crate and never got let out once for it, he's an angel in there now.

It takes a lot of time. Relax. 10 weeks is just the beginning. All these things are normal and can be fixed with some guidance and consistency.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Welcome to puppyhood! You've gotten a lot of good advice on this thread already.



Haystack said:


> Just wanted to add; WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG:
> 
> _*Here's the story; *_
> 
> ...


So.. I take it this is the "family dog"? Or is it your sister's? If it is the family's you'll need to have a sit down with the entire family and get everyone on the same page as far as puppy rules. 

within a family, it is pretty common for one person to be the "primary care giver". Who is that in your family? 

At your age, it might not be in this pup's best interest for that person to be you. Not that you are incapable by any means, but the next several years of your life will be very exciting - college, starting a career, etc. And most likely not very dog friendly. If this pup is going to be the family companion the responsibility of primary caregiver might need to fall on the shoulders of someone with more stability over the next several years. 

Keep this in mind especially when picking your obedience classes! Some trainers do not like the dogs in their class to have multiple handlers others actively encourage the whole family to participate. 



> Problem #1: Skip the story, we finally brought our puppy home (yay!) We only had a leash and collar for him, because my sister didn't wanna buy stuff beforehand, but later in the night the day we brought him home, we brought the crate and treats, and all of that. Problem is, we never had the correct food, because my sister was afraid of calling the breeder and asking what kind of food he was eating (the breeder seems mean towards her).. So my sister bought a different raw food brand that was completely different. Our puppy has now been switched on the correct food but only eats little amounts, he's 10 weeks old and weighs 20 pounds.. He never wants to eat, only a little bit, but will drink loads of water.


What is it you are feeding?



> Problem #2 The day we got him we didn't have a crate until night time, my sister took her friends advice as in; "put him in the crate and close the door." I told my sister not to do that you have to gradually allow him to get use to the crate, as in introduce him and let him explore, treat him etc. Like in the training videos and books, but she refused to listen to me, instead she stuck him in there and closed the door and let him cry all night, at times I sneaked in and opened the crate door and comforted him, and left it open while I sat infront, petting him, till he calms down and falls asleep. This seemed to help him a lot.. But, times we do put him in he cries, but then passes out.


Not as big as a problem as it may seem. In a perfect world we could slowly introduce pups to crates. But in the real world we need to sleep, shower and work so pups need to acclimate to crates the day they come home. They cry. Sometimes a lot. My 8 week old puppy SCREAMED. It gets better. You just have to out mule them.

Sneaking in to comfort him actually teaches him that crying will get him attention. You reinforced the behavior. Every time you comfort him when he cries you are training him to cry more.



> Problem #3 Potty training him. My sister kept letting him go on our balcony (which is ridiculous, we don't live in an apartment) I told her not to do this, but she kept doing it, so now he goes outside on the balcony, but not anywhere else unless it's inside the house in the same corner... I take him every day outside, for a short walk, then take him to a park which is 1 minute away from us.. It isn't a dog park, it's fenced in and a great size, I let him run around and chase me and I bring his toys to play with him to tire him out, even if we're there for such a long time not once will he poop and or pee, but the moment we get to the house, he pees on the floor... Or on the balcony...


Yep. Sounds like he is house trained, but thinks the balcony is his toilet area. 

No more balcony access. Back to square 1 with house training. He goes directly from crate to appropriate potty area. If he doesn't go, he goes back to the crate for 5 mins. Pottying is all business until he goes. No playing first.

And I agree with carmen... too much activity for the little guy. You will create an over tired pup. Over tired pups have less self control and training doesn't sink in as well. 



> Problem #4 Training him... On the first week everyone was trying to train him, and put him on a leash and everything, expecting him to know to do everything.. When I told them he cannot do everything he's a baby they wouldn't listen though.. I then taught him how to sit, and he responds when I say sit, but I have to say the word a couple of times before he does it, sometimes he'll do it straight away, most of the time I have to repeat myself. We're in a household of 12 people, everyone crowds around, making it very hard to train him.. He knows his name as well, and "come" and "off" but he only responds to these whenever he feels like it.


You have to repeat yourself because he doesn't know the command yet.

Slow down. He isn't ready. You've only had him 2 weeks. You should still be luring him and he should have a near 100% rate of reward.

Don't get in the habit of repeating commands. Everytime you repeat yourself you taught the dog that it has a choice in listening to you. Say the command once, if he doesn't respond, you need to reinforce the command. At this age for commands he knows its:

"sit" 
*give the dog a moment to respond* 
*if no response lure the dog into the position* 
"YES!"(or otherwise mark the behavior like with a clicker)
*reward*

For new commands lure first, then pair with a command once he's getting the hang of it. When he gets older and you know he knows the command 100% if he doesn't respond after the first command he will need to be corrected. Never give a command you cannot immediately reinforce.



> Problem #5 Hardcore biting... When we got him he was never a biter, he was very gentle, days later, my brother started sticking his hands in his mouth promoting him to bite my brother, he then finally bit my brother, and my brother was laughing, and kept making him bite more, my brother then laid on the ground and getting him to bite my brother, while shoving him back, laughing .. Then it got out of hand where my brother yelled "STOP! STOP!" but he wouldn't stop so my brother kept shoving him back and letting him bite and play with him.. Ever since this, he starts biting us roughly, putting his entire mouth on our leg putting his full force baby teeth on our legs, when he sees our hands, same thing, and refuses to go for a toy, but only our hands. Redirection and everything recommended to us does NOT work because he's stubborn and wants to do what he wants.


Redirection and everything else does not work because you haven't been consistent with it and expect overnight miracles l.

This is 100% normal gsd puppy behavior. I would have bet it would have happened even without your brothers rough play. That calm before the storm was just the pup getting used to his new home. That said, Everyone in the family will have to be on the same page and rough play isn't advised. 

It took a few MONTHS of redirection or time outs to get my pup's biting solidly under control. It does get better especially after teething. 




> Problem #6 Humping, at 8 weeks old he was humping things, he's humped my sister twice now, and today he humped a towel, is this normal?


Yes normal. Verbal correction and redirection as needed.



> Problem #7 His behavior is amazing when we're in public though, he barks at no one, and or anything, in the car he falls asleep instantly, when meeting new people he's slightly shy, but doesn't jump all over them or any of that.


He is unsure in public. Keep exposing him to new people and places. But be very careful to go slowly as he seems a bit shy. You don't want him in a situation where he will be afraid. I'd consult a trainer asap to help you find the right balance for this pup.


> Are all of these behaviors normal for an 10 week old puppy, how can I correct each and every one
> 
> I know this is a lot to say, I'm sorry, you guys have every right to yell at me, it's my fault. I want to cry, and feel like I've already ruined everything, to where I cannot fix it, I don't know what to do.. I love my puppy though, and refuse to give him up, so please don't recommend me that as an option. I've even called the breeder and asked her what to do, she told me she doesn't know what to do because none of her pups have done that.. So I don't know.
> 
> Everyone is telling me the same things as well, and I'm not seeing any improvements. In 2 weeks he gets his second shot and will be allowed to go to obedience school.. But, he's already drawn blood over 5 times, especially on 12 - 15 year olds, it's that out of hand, currently...


Patience and consistency. That's what it takes. I don't think you expectations right now are realistic, seems like you are asking too much of such a young pup. Slow down, keep at it, and you'll get there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you train a dog to move with you , then when you are not moving -- the dog has to stop , by himself , and will often sit automatically.


will try to get a video together , need involvement from someone with a camera.


If you represent movement , and not the static exercises which will be done on command later , training will be more exiting to the dog.


If you treat the dog as a responsible , to self , and to you, thinking being , then you will have a position for good leadership and a responsible dog without inhibitions .


You are not "training" the dog . You are "being" with the dog. In order to be together and have
there is an expectation - which goes both ways . No trick training this , no conditioning for a patterned response , no prep for trialing .
How to be . Then you can branch out and do all the rest and more !


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Welcome to puppyhood! You've gotten a lot of good advice on this thread already.
> 
> 
> So.. I take it this is the "family dog"? Or is it your sister's? If it is the family's you'll need to have a sit down with the entire family and get everyone on the same page as far as puppy rules.
> ...


We are feeding him dry food the vet gave us, I'll edit and put the brand name later. Also, I have been consistent with the re-directing, it was my #1 thing and I'm still doing it to this day, just 10 minutes ago as I'm writing this, I'm wearing a pair of shorts and he randomly went for attacking me as in biting hard as he can on my legs, and arms for no reason at all, and these are really hard full on pressure bites from him, with his whole mouth on me, I know puppies are teething but that hard? To where he's pissed off and he acts everyone in sight, and or me? He has toys around him, a new edible bone now too, and rather than going for that, he went crazy going for me and biting me.

He bites out of frustration, when he doesn't get his way or what he wants....

I've been doing that, I'm no longer repeating it, so I'm really hoping it gets better. 

Also because he started attacking me even when I was trying to re-direct him (trying to even give him his bone he likes but kept biting me everywhere as hard as I can) I went to tether him so he doesn't chase after anyone else in the house which he was trying to do, he literally tried to bite everyone that was sitting on the couch that was paying no attention to him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Haystack said:


> We are feeding him dry food the vet gave us, I'll edit and put the brand name later. Also, I have been consistent with the re-directing, it was my #1 thing and I'm still doing it to this day, just 10 minutes ago as I'm writing this, I'm wearing a pair of shorts and he randomly went for attacking me as in biting hard as he can on my legs, and arms for no reason at all, and these are really hard full on pressure bites from him, with his whole mouth on me, I know puppies are teething but that hard? To where he's pissed off and he acts everyone in sight, and or me? He has toys around him, a new edible bone now too, and rather than going for that, he went crazy going for me and biting me.
> 
> He bites out of frustration, when he doesn't get his way or what he wants....
> 
> ...


In my experience "dry food from the vet" usually means low quality or way over priced for its quality. I personally am in the camp of never feeding dry food. If I use a kibble I always soak it in water. Hydration is important. My holistic vet will give me the sternest lecture if I don't LOL

And he is not biting you for no reason, it's not out of anger and at his age it's not even teething (that won't happen till 4 - 6 months). 

It is what german shepherds DO. That is the way he is genetically wired to interact with the world. There is a reason that gsds and malinois are the most popular law enforcement dogs - their willingness to bite and grip. It's a part of their herding style. Here's a snippet about testing gsds for herding:



> At the real testing he takes an age-appropriate lamb and puts it and the puppies together in a pen and watches them closely. “In the first moment, from one second to the next, he will see a lot. You have puppies that are afraid, that tuck their tails whimpering, and puppies that are like young scamps. And, there are puppies whose tails are up when they walk to the lamb just like they want to say: “Hey, you are the one I have been dreaming of!” These young dogs, the ones that laugh and want to bite, are the ones I am looking for. I do this kind of testing for about a week and then I am already pretty sure what I have got there.” Of course it is also very interesting for the shepherd to see how naturally attracted the puppies are to him. Heyne lets the puppies out of the pen and when they get a certain distance away he calls them. “It is the same as working in a kindergarten. It is always the same kids that are out in front with the teacher and the same ones that dawdle behind.”
> Another very important test is how the puppy grips the lamb. “Later two puppies are put with the lamb. The lamb then panics and wants to get back to the flock. It jumps up the wall. One puppy goes and just bites everywhere. That is not good. Which grip the puppies demonstrate is also interesting. It is important to know whether they use a neck grip, or a leg grip which is common in Lower Saxony and Middle Germany. It also depends whether the grip is dry, meaning full-mouth, or only with the front teeth. And it also depends whether they shake the lamb. This is all genetic. The same as with hunting dogs. So I have selected the dogs this way for decades.”


German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne

Note the end part about grip. These are young pups he is talking about there. Full on grips and a willingness to bite are a desired aspect of this breed. Something that has been bred and selected for, for well over 100 years in gsds and for centuries before in the landrace GSDS come from.

In a way the puppy biting means you are on the right track... the dog is chosing to engage with you and the family. He's bonding with you guys. That's a good thing. 

Yeah puppy bites hurt and you need to train them to control those urges - which takes time. But hey, that's what you signed up for when deciding to bring a gsd pup into your life. 

Just keep working on redirection. It gets better.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ellen Nickelsberg is known to a few old members on this forum .
Having an interest in old herding genetics and genetic obedience I have had
many conversations and emails with her.
Do not agree "It is what german shepherds DO. That is the way he is genetically wired to interact with the world"
Wouldn't the insurance companies and landlords love to get a hold of this . 
No it is not. 
Not even future police dogs! 


Not this puppy . He needs to quit NOW.
"I'm wearing a pair of shorts and he randomly went for attacking me as in biting hard as he can on my legs, and arms for no reason at all, and these are really hard full on pressure bites from him, with his whole mouth on me, I know puppies are teething but that hard? To where he's pissed off and he acts everyone in sight, and or me? He has toys around him, a new edible bone now too, and rather than going for that, he went crazy going for me and biting me."


Stop with the toys and substitutions . You are animated and act like prey and he is going for you because you won't take authority and give him a lightning fast correction . NO RESPECT .


Back to the shepherd Heyne excerpt -- 
he looks for the bold and daring (missing in the breed) confident dog with an ATTRACTION to sheep . A natural desire to
command and control SHEEP. 
The shepherd also tests to see that there is a natural , intrinsic , interest in the handler -- not the toy , not the treat , not the ball reward, the HANDLER .
("Of course it is also very interesting for the shepherd to see how naturally attracted the puppies are to him" . )


Attraction to sheep, attraction to handler . Work independently , work co-operatively. 


Commenting on the bite "One puppy goes and just bites everywhere. That is not good."


It sure isn't good . Taking control does not mean that the dog makes prey out of the sheep . He has to have self control in order to control . There has to be a clear mind . There has to be a presence .


This is not landsharky behaviour. 


A shepherd wouldn't tolerate it .
Grip is genetic . Calm , open , full grip .


The OP's pup shows poor socialization .
He needs law and order . Lessons his mommy should have taught him have to be taught by his new
human family. 
No nonsense . 
Even one , can I say this , come-to-Jesus-moment. 
The or else is , the longer this goes on the more reinforced the dog feels and the less confident the owner is .


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Ellen Nickelsberg is known to a few old members on this forum .
> Having an interest in old herding genetics and genetic obedience I have had
> many conversations and emails with her.
> Do not agree "It is what german shepherds DO. That is the way he is genetically wired to interact with the world"
> ...


I've been socializing this puppy as much as possible, I do not huddle my puppy up. My family is full of realtors, down the street is a lady who owns two not socialized shepherds, they bark and lunge at everyone kids, cars, etc. They've almost bit my older brother, and wanted to attack my puppy, the owner can't even control them on the leash they drag her, she was forced to muzzle them because of complaints. Those are not socialized dogs. She doesn't care about them either, her and her husband make over $4 million a year, they get nanny's to take care of their dogs, because they're only used for guard dogs, other than that they're neglected, and not socialized, I refuse to allow my puppy to turn this way.

I take my puppy to as many public places I can, I tell everyone who approaches him to respectfully and calmly approach him and allow him to sniff, including kids. He's been around over 30 kids already, and more than 50 parents, and including elders, he's very gentle in public places, and very well behaved in public, doesn't bark, nothing, just observes, and sits asap when I say sit. But the moment I come home with him, that's when he turns into a little monster.

At 12 weeks, I will be introducing him to many dogs (puppy classes) of course, and go straight to obedience school with him.

Also, when playing with him, during chase, he doesn't bite at anyone's legs, he stops and sits and allows to be petted. His biting occurs randomly at times when we're at home, if he doesn't get what he wants, he goes crazy and starts mouthing very hard. He drew blood again on me today, and starts making noises like grunting or whatever (not growling) as he bites us, and goes straight for our legs and feet. He doesn't care about the toys, so I do not feel if this is truly a 'teething' issue, more so, my puppy just wants to bite because when he does this, I notice he wags his tail, so I don't know if he's coming out as wanting to play when he does that, since he's tail wagging, but even when ending play time, he doesn't care he finds someone else to bite.

My friend is a German Shepherd trainer as well, and a breeder, she had trouble with him too, so, I wonder how obedience school is gonna turn out.

I'm trying to take every piece of advice I am getting from these forums and other Shepherd owners, and none of it is working. Even the breeder didn't know what to do.

Weird that he's an angel when it comes to being in public, very calm, relaxed, and happy, and gentle, and obeys nicely, but the moment we get home, it's like; "Haha! Fooled you guys!"

Also, to someone who mentioned about the vet puppy food - I do soak the food of course. The brand is called; "Ultra Grain-Free Puppy Recipe" ... It's better than the breeders food she was giving him, he was the most skinniest puppy out of all of them because he didn't like the food she was giving him and had diarrhea from the raw food, as to why we were forced to switch rather than waiting a month.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

You are getting excellent help here, no need to add anything to that. I'm a beginner myself, so the only thing I can add is my experience with my six month old boy.

Not ashamed to say this, I have thought, "what have I gotten myself into", "I can't do this", "I'm going nuts", on almost a daily basis since getting my pup. I have probably called my pup most bad names I know in both of my mother tongues (not directly angrily). 
I got my pup at 8 weeks, such an adorable little boy, super sweet, sleeping on my lap. I was on a cloud of pink marshmallows with colorful rainbows all around me. I didn't think I needed puppy class, because I got the Internet! I'm an expert! I know everything he's going to do... well... After only a few days I had gotten a reality check, and after two weeks I immediatly paid for puppy class. 
Last week for example, when it started to rain, I was outside with him and I thought I could run the last part home, so I did. My boy got all excited went around me and jumped on my back and bit me, quite hard. Gave me two nice (not deep) cuts. 

If I create an imaginary scale with joy on one side and frustration on the other, guess which one will be all the way down.. 
But if I take joy out of the scale and replace it with love, guess what happens now.  
Currently it's a lot of hard work, I have to educate myself, I have to be consistent, I have to keep an eye on everything, etc. Not much joy in that (there is always joy, just not as an end feeling), especially when other things already give too much stress. But I love my little boy, dearly. I'd give up anything for him.

Good luck.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you recall in a previous post I said that the dam , more so than the littermates, helps socialize the pup during his primary socialization period which is to his own species. Some lessons carry over to the secondary socialization which happens around the 7th , 8th to 10th week , which is to the new life to humans.


here it is " Lessons his mommy should have taught him have to be taught by his new
human family."


I didn't say you were not socializing him.


I wouldn't go out of my way to introduce a 12 week old pup to many dogs.


You could be doing too much !
"I take my puppy to as many public places I can, I tell everyone who approaches him to respectfully and calmly approach him and allow him to sniff, including kids. He's been around over 30 kids already, and more than 50 parents, and including elders, he's very gentle in public places, and very well behaved in public, doesn't bark, nothing, just observes, and sits asap when I say sit. But the moment I come home with him, that's when he turns into a little monster."


pup might be way over stimulated , over extended "But the moment I come home with him, that's when he turns into a little monster" and "but the moment we get home, it's like; "Haha! Fooled you guys"


I would keep him home . Calm him down. Teach him home-manners and limitations. 
Get your family and little brother organized .


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Sounds like an over tired puppy. Keep a leash or tab on him , hold him away from you when he goes after your legs . If he does it again it's probably time for a nap In the crate.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Get some scheduled naps for that pup. A couple of hours, twice a day - many people have reported marked improvements in their puppies' behaviour once they implemented regular, daily naps: Put in crate in quiet area, close crate door, let puppy alone for a couple of hours until puppy wakes up on its own.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

I've been letting him nap more, and a lot, it hasn't been helping much.  Today when I was home, in the morning, he decided to attack the kids.. Chasing after them, and biting and gripping onto their legs, as they try to not engage with him, and then they retreated to the couch where they were pulling back, but he was then jumping on the couch to bite them...

I then took him across the street and started playing with him till he was nice and tired out (couldn't that long because it was hot), brought him home and kept making him drink water, and then he went back to attacking the kids again. My sister then put him in the crate because the biting got out of control, I kept him in there for 3 minutes but let him out when he calmed down and he passed out on our carpet.

I've been constantly redirecting him on toys and listening to your guys advice.. So far it's going terrible right now, like sometimes he'll take a toy, or a treat, but even like taking things off his collar in the night, or his harness, he goes straight in for biting my hands.

I'm really hoping this biting will cool down, sometimes he uses a very soft mouth, but when engaged randomly he finds that chasing / biting us is play time for him, or biting us for simple things like putting leash / collar on.

I've been tethering him too lately and keeping him on the leash, he whines for a long 30 minutes before giving up, and throws a tantrum.

Important thing I need help with mostly right now:

Also, I've been trying not to repeat myself when doing things like "come" and his name, and sit. I have taught him "off" the thing is, he will not do this command unless I'm sitting down with him, treat in-hand.. Do you guys know when he will start to listen, he's 11 weeks after Sunday, I've been seeing people saying there puppy was always obedient at age 9 - 10 weeks, so I'm a little scared if I'm the one to blame  I always try to do very short training sessions away from everyone after I've tired him out a bit, when doing simple things like "Come" he'll stare at me the whole time, unless I sit down then he'll come.

I noticed during training sessions... He avoids eye contact with me, as in he never looks at my eyes, even when I try to do exactly what Zak George does, he's just more focused on the treat, I think this has been my problem with the training.

Still need more advice guys, tired of all the bite marks on my hands, really hoping he grows out of it... And really hoping obedience school becomes a large help.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Haystack said:


> I've been letting him nap more, and a lot, it hasn't been helping much.  Today when I was home, in the morning, he decided to attack the kids.. Chasing after them, and biting and gripping onto their legs, as they try to not engage with him, and then they retreated to the couch where they were pulling back, but he was then jumping on the couch to bite them...


What is it exactly the kids do when the pup gets rough with them? Are they jerking their legs up and using a high pitched voice just because they are excited and it hurts? Running from them? (You said chasing) They could be inadvertently putting the puppy into drive. Revving him up more.


> I then took him across the street and started playing with him till he was nice and tired out (couldn't that long because it was hot), brought him home and kept making him drink water, and then he went back to attacking the kids again. My sister then put him in the crate because the biting got out of control, I kept him in there for 3 minutes but let him out when he calmed down and he passed out on our carpet.


Be careful with exercising him to the point he is tired at his age. Exhaustion isn't the best thing for a growing body. Let him set the pace and intensity. Also be careful with making him drink so much so soon after heavy exercise, especially as he grows. It's thought to be a contributing factor the the life threatening emergency bloat. 

It really sounds like he is conditioned to interact with the kids in a revved up manner. They are going to need to completely change their approach with him. You'll need 100% full family support.



> I've been constantly redirecting him on toys and listening to your guys advice.. So far it's going terrible right now, like sometimes he'll take a toy, or a treat, but even like taking things off his collar in the night, or his harness, he goes straight in for biting my hands.
> 
> I'm really hoping this biting will cool down, sometimes he uses a very soft mouth, but when engaged randomly he finds that chasing / biting us is play time for him, or biting us for simple things like putting leash / collar on.


Is every single person in the family just as consistent as redirecting as you are? Including the kids? 

It gets better. Once my guy's adult teeth came in it was like a light switch moment.

Good info here:
Mouthing, Nipping and Biting in Puppies | ASPCA



> Also, I've been trying not to repeat myself when doing things like "come" and his name, and sit. I have taught him "off" the thing is, he will not do this command unless I'm sitting down with him, treat in-hand..


Then he hasn't learned the command yet. He hasn't generalised it. Keep at it. You may have to reteach the command while you are in different positions. That might mean going back to luring him while you are standing etc.

Part of proofing a command is making sure it is followed in all places, under all levels of distraction. A big mistake people make while training is doing it in a static environment. I play training games with my pup's that include me giving commands while laying on the ground, hanging upside down off the couch, sitting, standing, standing on stools, etc. It was a way of adding distraction and changing it. Also helped me to make sure the dog understood exactly what the command means - sit means butt on floor immediately not butt on floor relative to a particular position of me. Somethings needed to be reinforcement as I changed stuff up. 



> Do you guys know when he will start to listen, he's 11 weeks after Sunday, I've been seeing people saying there puppy was always obedient at age 9 - 10 weeks, so I'm a little scared if I'm the one to blame  I always try to do very short training sessions away from everyone after I've tired him out a bit, when doing simple things like "Come" he'll stare at me the whole time, unless I sit down then he'll come.


This is a hard question to answer. Lots of nuances. In a but shell he will listen when he understands the command, has been proofed, has a strong bond with the handler and a willingness to please them and understands that there are consequences for not obeying. Oh as well as when he has a bit of maturity.

There isn't going to be a magic age where obedience kicks in. It's going to get better a little each day. Then There will be days it seems like you have an Einstein puppy who makes progress in leaps and bounds. Only to find a week later his brains have fallen out and you swear he has forgotten everything you have taught him. 

It's a process. As your dog matures and different drives and hormones kick in you'll see ups and downs. 

I take it then you taught come while sitting down then? 



> I noticed during training sessions... He avoids eye contact with me, as in he never looks at my eyes, even when I try to do exactly what Zak George does, he's just more focused on the treat, I think this has been my problem with the training.


I'm not much of a Zak George fan... but that aside remember you have only had him like what? 3 weeks? It takes lots and lots of practice. I think I did daily practice with the focus/watch me command up until 6 months or so. Heck I still occasionally practice/reinforce it at over a year.

A little trick I learned for "watch me" is cheeking a high value treat (something human grade like a bit of cooked chicken) and spitting it at them to reward. Takes their focus off your hands completely and has them focusing on your face. It's weird and a bit gross but it's worked for me for decades. 



> Still need more advice guys, tired of all the bite marks on my hands, really hoping he grows out of it... And really hoping obedience school becomes a large help.


Keep it up! Puppies are cute for a reason. If it wasn't for their sheer adorableness they would have died out long ago because they can be little devil spawns  

Obedience school and puppy classes will be a HUGE help for you. So much of dog training is non verbal. It's hard to really give good advice over the Internet where we can't really see what's happening. 

One class with a GOOD trainer who can observe how you interact with the dog can put your handling miles ahead of hours upon hours of what you are learning by reading online.

Good luck. I promise it does get better.


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## anonymouse71 (Aug 7, 2013)

When you clean up a puppy doo pile, take it and put it in the yard where you want him to doo his business. When he smells it there, it should make him want to doo there. I have done this before and it helped.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> What is it exactly the kids do when the pup gets rough with them? Are they jerking their legs up and using a high pitched voice just because they are excited and it hurts? Running from them? (You said chasing) They could be inadvertently putting the puppy into drive. Revving him up more.
> 
> 
> Be careful with exercising him to the point he is tired at his age. Exhaustion isn't the best thing for a growing body. Let him set the pace and intensity. Also be careful with making him drink so much so soon after heavy exercise, especially as he grows. It's thought to be a contributing factor the the life threatening emergency bloat.
> ...


Nope the kids aren't rough with him, they're very gentle with him, because I've talked to them, they're old enough to know as well (12 & 15) the main ones. Just now he started biting me very hard for no reason, we were all sitting on the couch, and then he just now, jumped up and started biting me insanely hard, I had his soccer ball toy (soft toy) and tried to redirect him on it, he refused to accept it, and continued biting me. I then just now put him in his crate to put him down for a nap, since my sister had him with her playing the backyard for most of the day.

And I know, I don't take him out for that long, and when I do take him out I do small things with him, like.. Taking him to a private beach, and letting him dig, or in the backyard playing with us, or a tiny walk if needed, and or taking him to the school park that's a minute from us that's all grass and fenced in, no kids.

Yup, the kids are constantly redirecting him too, everyone in the household is, none of us like getting bit, haha, I have to many marks all over me, he drew blood multiple times on one of the kids (the 12 year old), for no reason, just randomly starts biting.

Actually, no I never taught him come while sitting down, he likes to lay down, and then once he lays down he's like a potato, and then when I sit down, he still stares, but then I say come, that's when he'll respond, times where I'm standing up he'll come when I say so, but majority of the time he doesn't listen, training is slightly a bit harder too because he oddly doesn't wanna make eye contact. What's insanely funny though he's basically mastered "sit" very well, but again, he likes to argue with me a bit, as in, whining, and making sounds, and or gets distracted and doesn't sit, but times I'm in public the moment I say sit, he sits. It's really odd.

I'll try exactly what you said to do, thanks :grin2: He's a good pup. The other day I ran into a lady who owned a 5 month old Golden Retriever, and her dog... Literally laid on the ground as if he was a bear carpet, I've never seen a dog do that, he then when being petted, tried to bite my hand hard, going for big bites. The owner was saying that he does that and warning me about my puppy, so I really don't want that happening to my dog, especially when small children are around.

I will keep up with the training, I've been doing very short sessions for 5 - 15 minutes as much as I can.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Also, like to mention, I think everyone is allergic to his bites, I think more-so I am then they are, I'm not allergic to dogs in-general, just oddly his bites, this never has happened before, but I think it's been giving me headaches lately, and making me nauseous, allergy medications do help me out, so I'm really working the best as I can to get him to stop biting.

He's an adorable puppy, I should post pictures, but naughty haha


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Haystack said:


> I've been letting him nap more, and a lot, it hasn't been helping much.  Today when I was home, in the morning, he decided to attack the kids.. Chasing after them, and biting and gripping onto their legs, as they try to not engage with him, and then they retreated to the couch where they were pulling back, but he was then jumping on the couch to bite them...
> 
> I then took him across the street and started playing with him till he was nice and tired out (couldn't that long because it was hot), brought him home and kept making him drink water, and then he went back to attacking the kids again. My sister then put him in the crate because the biting got out of control, I kept him in there for 3 minutes but let him out when he calmed down and he passed out on our carpet.
> 
> ...


I could be way off but this puppy sounds to me like he is over tired, over stimulated and has way to much freedom.

He shouldn't have the freedom to be chasing the kids and climbing after them onto the couch.
And he shouldn't be out in the yard playing for most of the day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

went back to page one -- 


want to share what the pedigree is ?


so breeder has one set of guests visiting the same day that you were and they were allowed to play and
interact with the pups.


the pups were then put into their pen where they crashed out of exhaustion and went to sleep . The breeder then
allows you to enter the pen . You and your sister wake and hold the pups and then continue play.


fast forward .... the dog is now at your house . With 12 people it has to be active . Little brother antagonizes dog .


a 10 -- TEN -- week old pup is socialized , your words "I take my puppy to as many public places I can, I tell everyone who approaches him to respectfully and calmly approach him and allow him to sniff, including kids. He's been around over 30 kids already, and more than 50 parents"


He is 10 weeks old . He doesn't even know home yet . Too much stimulation . 
Rest is a necessity for growth and health, immune and hormonal. 

_Were the parents stable and with good temperament. Did this breeder have both parents? _


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Haystack , you keep asking for help . You keep getting consistent advice from experienced owners and breeders .


Sorry . You don't listen. 


You put the dog into the crate for a whole long 3 minutes ? Then you let him out to crash . Useless.
The dog needs rest , peace and quiet - being removed from the temptations of preying on the kids.
NO chase games . You don't chase the dog . The dog does not chase you. 
Instead of bribing the dog with replacement objects to chomp , correct the dog sharply - swift and clear that
there are to be no teeth on you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

All the focus seems to be on the biting .
So , how is the potty (house) training going? Is the dog doing business on the lawn yet ?


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Haystack , you keep asking for help . You keep getting consistent advice from experienced owners and breeders .
> 
> 
> Sorry . You don't listen.
> ...


Lol. If you are listening to my posts instead of being aggressive, I am doing exactly what you guys are doing, including watching as many videos & reading as many books as I can to correct his biting behavior.

Also, when I removed him from the crate, there was no children around, I gave him water, let him go outside (to do his business, brought him in) and started watching TV, he fell asleep, and then I put him in his crate, and he slept through the whole night.

I never chase the dog, and I tell everyone that. I have tried correcting the dog sharply and swiftly, and even listened to exactly what the breeder had to say. I'm seriously trying and listening to you all, so don't say that lol. I wouldn't bother asking here or even coming here if I wasn't going to listen.

I'm gonna try to keep swiftly correcting rather than swapping.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> All the focus seems to be on the biting .
> So , how is the potty (house) training going? Is the dog doing business on the lawn yet ?


Good, he goes out now all the time, I started timing everything.. So after eating 20 mins - 1 hour, outside he goes. Waking up from a nap.. Outside he goes, waking up in the morning, out he goes.. It's been working, but he still has accidents in the house, but rarely.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

[QU​OTE=Haystack;7926713]Good, he goes out now all the time, I started timing everything.. So after eating 20 mins - 1 hour, outside he goes. Waking up from a nap.. Outside he goes, waking up in the morning, out he goes.. It's been working, but he still has accidents in the house, but rarely.[/QUOTE]

giving him the opportunity to have those accidents = teaching him that it's ok to potty in the house. It can really slow down training.

Pup is either tied to your side or in a crate or exercise pen. Any time the puppy starts to sniff and circle, happy voice "lets go potty" and take them outside. 

If he's having accidents in the house, someone isn't watching the puppy. 

All the other things you describe are simply an over-tired, over-stimulated puppy. He's learned that pouncing and nipping and chasing are the way to interact with you. Again, that's what your family has taught him.
All these walks and socializing and training has left him constant over-tired and over-stimulated. At his age, 5-10 minutes off the property once a day is more than enough. 2-3 minutes of training at a time, a couple times a day. 
Most of his time should be spent learning how to relax and settle quietly in the house. 
Instead, you are training him the opposite - to never settle


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> went back to page one --
> 
> 
> want to share what the pedigree is ?
> ...


He knows home, we're a quiet family and no my little brother doesn't antagonize him. He knows all of us really well, constantly greeting us, and wanting to be around him, follows us everywhere, and if we're taking him out for a really short walk, and we're close to home, he gets excited, because he's happy he's home.

Here, let me clear things up for you guys. We don't ever overstimulate him, really, like I said, when we do take him to places, that's honestly maybe once a while, not every single day. And when like I said we take him to a park, it's a very, very empty park. Very, empty. There are no kids, there are trees, and a fenced area, and loads of fresh grass, which he absolutely loves, I don't stay there with him for an hour, like the most I stay with him there is for 15 minutes or 25 minutes (not even that long), just to tire him out, then we're home. I do this, because he wakes me up this early, or sometimes at 6 AM to go potty, so I take him out as well to tire him, and then back into his crate he goes, and allow him to sleep, after he takes a long nap, and he has his energy again, I take him to go potty. Then let him back in the house where I'm constantly supervising him making sure he doesn't chew on anything, doesn't grab shoes (watching him) doesn't have an accident in the house...

The kids will be in the living room at times just playing their game, and not giving him attention because they're playing their game, and he'll be chewing on his bone, then randomly he starts biting them. THAT'S when the kids tend to run off to get away because he's biting way to hard.

I then try to give him a toy, but he refuses to take it, so then I correct him and he still continues.

For some odd reason, he tends to not like boys, he's actually very gentle with me but there are times where he'll just randomly swap from biting them to me, or when I put on his harness or leash, he's constantly biting me hard, or even when I just take it off. Also, again, he likes to bite the younger boys, he's OK with older guys, but not younger boys despite them being relaxed, and not even revving him up. When my neighbors kids randomly snuck in my yard to come see him (they have a girl, and a boy) he was completely OK with the little girl, letting her pet him, giving kisses, but when it came to the little boy, he growled and barked, and wanted to bite. This again, happened at around 6 PM, when I had to babysit some kids that are my family friends kids (he was with me at the time), full of energy, I started playing with him in their yard, just some fetch, brought him in, and he was again OK with the younger girl, but when it came to the little boy (by far younger) who wasn't even paying attention to him because the kid only cared about his legos, he started nipping and growling.

Also this is slightly a different question to the discussion should I buy a clicker and start clicker training him because regular hand signals and verbal signals aren't going so well.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> [QU​OTE=Haystack;7926713]Good, he goes out now all the time, I started timing everything.. So after eating 20 mins - 1 hour, outside he goes. Waking up from a nap.. Outside he goes, waking up in the morning, out he goes.. It's been working, but he still has accidents in the house, but rarely.


giving him the opportunity to have those accidents = teaching him that it's ok to potty in the house. It can really slow down training.

Pup is either tied to your side or in a crate or exercise pen. Any time the puppy starts to sniff and circle, happy voice "lets go potty" and take them outside. 

If he's having accidents in the house, someone isn't watching the puppy. 

All the other things you describe are simply an over-tired, over-stimulated puppy. He's learned that pouncing and nipping and chasing are the way to interact with you. Again, that's what your family has taught him.
All these walks and socializing and training has left him constant over-tired and over-stimulated. At his age, 5-10 minutes off the property once a day is more than enough. 2-3 minutes of training at a time, a couple times a day. 
Most of his time should be spent learning how to relax and settle quietly in the house. 
Instead, you are training him the opposite - to never settle[/QUOTE]

I'm not the one allowing him to have the accidents though, there are times where my sister randomly likes to take him with her because; "My boyfriend wants to see him." - She then ends up taking him for basically the whole day, and then drops him off to me at a really random time, and it's really, really frustrating because I have him on a potty schedule so these accidents don't happen, but when she takes him and drops him off to me really late, he'll randomly pee, despite me taking him back out the first thing when she drops him off.. I don't know when he last ate, and or drank, because she doesn't tell me so it makes it so much harder. I will try to make sure there are no accidents though. It's really good though that he drags me to the backyard that's when I know for sure he needs to potty. Also, I do know when he needs to potty at time's (after when she drops him off) because I do keep an eye on him, and he goes in a certain corner, when I see him going to that corner I grab him and run outside with him because I know exactly what he's trying to do.

I have a question, should I keep his leash on 24/7 (until bed time), while having it latched onto my jeans belt loop? Would that work? I remember someone telling me to do this.

And don't worry I do the happy voice and am recognizing him with the potty word.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a clicker is simply a marker that he did what you ask. It signals to him "a reward is coming" You still use the same verbal or hand signals. The commands aren't "going so well" because he is a baby. He has the attention span of a gnat. 

Nipping and growling is how he would interact with his siblings. When your family is doing something else, the pouncing and biting is how he knows to initiate at game. When they run off from him, it's simply part of the game. He pounces, they run, he gets to chase them. He thinks it's all part of the game. 
He shouldn't be outside alone for neighbor children to be playing with him. 

You've got months to go before teething is over and the biting slows down. Until then, it's simply patience and consistency. The kids need to redirect him to a toy when he is playing too rough. They need to not run away, no matter how rough he is playing because that simply becomes part of the game.

Put a leash on him and tie him to your belt loop.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Before you get defensive about it, remember this. Everything is about clarity for your pup. Even if you are doing A,B,C, just exactly the way its on a video, it doesn't automatically work with you and your pup. You always need to look for it to be clear to him, especially with corrections. It has to be clear what he's being corrected for, so you have to make sure there isn't 3 or 4 things going on at once in his mind.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> a clicker is simply a marker that he did what you ask. It signals to him "a reward is coming" You still use the same verbal or hand signals. The commands aren't "going so well" because he is a baby. He has the attention span of a gnat.
> 
> Nipping and growling is how he would interact with his siblings. When your family is doing something else, the pouncing and biting is how he knows to initiate at game. When they run off from him, it's simply part of the game. He pounces, they run, he gets to chase them. He thinks it's all part of the game.
> He shouldn't be outside alone for neighbor children to be playing with him.
> ...


Guys lol, I'm not being defensive about it, lol I'm listening, I promise, and no, no, he wasn't alone with the neighbor lol, I am always with him, I was with him when they snuck in just playing with him the yard, and training him a bit, and getting him use to going potty outside, then they randomly showed up in my yard and said can we see him, so I said yes.

I will tell them that, today he was biting me, and I redirected him on the toy, he tends to use a soft mouth on me, but then randomly will bite hard.. My god it hurts so bad I don't pull back or anything I grab a toy and redirect him on it, but ouch lmao.

And OK I will be putting the leash on him and putting it to my belt loop after he's done his nap in his crate, should I keep it on for the whole day? Until bed time.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

i have the pup tied to me, tethered in a specific location or in a crate/xpen. never loose in the house.
it also means that you have less to worry about for those random accidents after your sister brings him back. Puppy is right there and you can scoop him out and outside before he finishes his business.

if everyone in the family isn't following the exact same list of instructions, though he will be getting mixed signals.
I'd be more worried about what diseases he may be coming into contact with while out with your sister. He shouldn't be in public anywhere at this age. He hasn't finished his shots yet.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> i have the pup tied to me, tethered in a specific location or in a crate/xpen. never loose in the house.
> it also means that you have less to worry about for those random accidents after your sister brings him back. Puppy is right there and you can scoop him out and outside before he finishes his business.
> 
> if everyone in the family isn't following the exact same list of instructions, though he will be getting mixed signals.
> I'd be more worried about what diseases he may be coming into contact with while out with your sister. He shouldn't be in public anywhere at this age. He hasn't finished his shots yet.


I am worried about her too, but when she brings him with her boyfriend they play in his backyard the whole day, and I guess have a BBQ with his sister, while playing in the yard.

Just now I made everyone in the household to pick a toy, lol, and I said it's their "safety toy" so, basically I told them to carry it no matter what, and put it in their pocket, the moment he comes after them, bam.. Toy. I'm so sick of the biting now so I literally strictly told them that they have to carry a toy the moment they step in the house.

And ok, I'm gonna keep him on the leash then all day tied to me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I will tell them that, today he was biting me, and I redirected him on the toy, he tends to use a soft mouth on me, but then randomly will bite hard.. My god it hurts so bad I don't pull back or anything I grab a toy and redirect him on it, but ouch lmao.


I thought you were going to correct him? I'm pointing that out just to make the point about consistency. You won't make things clear to him without being consistent. You can't correct him one time then let him put his teeth on you the next. 

I'm on the no teeth on me period side, no soft mouth. Nothing. But if you let him once then correct him once, the correction becomes unfair and could be why he'll try it out softly, then hard. You're encouraging it, without meaning to.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

My pup decided biting me and making me yelp was better than redirecting . Actually BOTH my pups decided that , so when they were young and it was a hard bite I would grab their scruff and pull them off after one redirection . If they went back at me it was a rougher scruff grab. That doesn't work for all dogs and even that method still requires a ton of patience , you still let them redirect after grabbing the scruff. But that gave the message to my two quicker than redirecting alone. Here's what's wrong , here is what's right . Black and white . Both distinctly marked .... and then they're puppies and forget in an hour anyway because of their airhead brain ..m  but it gets better over time. 

Are you at home all day ? Another thing I like to do is I pretend I have a work schedule so I don't feel bad with lots of crate time. I do 30 min breakfast, walk, a bit of play , then usually 2 to 3 hours of crate / nap. Some days it's an hour in the xpen and then a 2 hour crate nap . You think the ebvironments you go to aren't over stimulating but just how much activity in general (that's not structured somewhat ) can be too stimulating


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good post Mego. I firmly believe in no-teeth-on-skin. There is no reason for the dog to think biting skin in play is OK. Never. Particularly a breed like a GSD.

I like to correct and move on. I don't really like correcting and then instantly redirecting. I like to initiate play with my pups, rather than the other way around. This can be more lax once the pup is a bit older.

If you redirect you are feeding that cycle of "I'm excited, I want to bite, and I get to bite whenever I want". In my opinion. Certainly take care to give the pup outlet for tug and play with toys or rag on a string, or fetch. Frequently, but on your terms. GSD pups want to bite and tug, make it a game with you, and keep it somewhat controlled. I don't layer obedience in with tug play when the pup is a baby. 

Some people with real bitey pups release them from the crate and are holding a tug out to redirect the pups from biting the owner's pants or hands. I don't like that. I understand the pup is excited and is a puppy, but I still expect some self-control. I observed my pups greet my adult dogs. They NEVER ran over and started biting the adult dogs. They ran over, tails wagging, and gently licked the adult dog's mouths, sometimes voluntarily rolling over to show the belly. No biting from either adult or pup. So I am sure even a very young pup can learn to bite appropriately and not to always channel excitement into a bite. 

This is just how I handled it. I'm sure there are many schools of thought, but I NEVER think allowing teeth on skin is OK and put a stop to that immediately.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

listen . 
Do not even go there -- "Lol. If you are listening to my posts instead of being aggressive, I am doing exactly what you guys are doing, including watching as many videos & reading as many books as I can to correct his biting behavior."


YOU look at your posts .
And you listen and do before everyone gives up on trying to help you.


To a one , everyone has been saying the dog is way over extended - over tired , over stimulated . Not once but repetitively. Yet you blithely continue , argue and challenge., deny and contradict yourself .


You say you have a gentle dog
who uses a soft mouth on you (so?) and in others he bites you insanely hard , and you can't put his harness on - and the whole family is asked to go around carrying something to stuff in his gob to block a bite on themselves.


"We're in a household of 12 people, everyone crowds around, making it very hard to train him." ---
that is stimulation


lol -- " We don't ever overstimulate him" - so then it seems there are a lot of people (foum)
who have been telling you otherwise , who don't know what they are talking about? examples 
a'plenty- stimulating and antagonizing .


"When we got him he was never a biter, he was very gentle, days later, my brother started sticking his hands in his mouth promoting him to bite my brother, he then finally bit my brother, and my brother was laughing, and kept making him bite more, my brother then laid on the ground and getting him to bite my brother, while shoving him back, laughing .. Then it got out of hand where my brother yelled "STOP! STOP!" but he wouldn't stop so my brother kept shoving him back and letting him bite and play with him..
"Nope the kids aren't rough with him, they're very gentle with him," 
""He knows home, we're a quiet family and no my little brother doesn't antagonize him"


sure - see above


for a 10 week pup this is too stimulating 
" take my puppy to as many public places I can, I tell everyone who approaches him to respectfully and calmly approach him and allow him to sniff, including kids. He's been around over 30 kids already, and more than 50 parents, and including elders


adding to the excitement we have a sister who
"likes to take him with her because; "My boyfriend wants to see him." - She then ends up taking him for basically the whole day, and then drops him off to me at a really random time, and it's really, really frustrating because I have him on a potty schedule so these accidents don't happen, but when she takes him and drops him off to me really late"
more on that sister "she brings him with her boyfriend they play in his backyard the whole day, and I guess have a BBQ with his sister, while playing in the yard."


so you have no idea what goes on . The dog is not an animated toy for their amusement. 
SO more on the sister -- actually your sister may be the legal owner of the dog. Page one -- she put the deposit on the pup. Later she and her friend went to pick up the pup which leads me to assume she paid the balance on that day , and this "instead of my sister allowing me to" - so she is the owner . 
Also you say that you told your sister to buy food and items in preparations for the pup coming home indicating a control that your sister has in the dog.
Go back to page one and see the conflict that is there between you and your sister in the management of the dog. 
Who put you in charge? Seems to me that she is the owner. All seen on page one. 


how do you reconcile this? In a house of 12 people there is not ONE leader . 
Dogs actually thrive in harmony and clear cut unambiguous order. 


Chase games - "Also, when playing with him, during chase" ". Chasing after them, and biting and gripping onto their legs"
tired and overstimulated "took him across the street and started playing with him till he was nice and tired out"


this is serious "Also, like to mention, I think everyone is allergic to his bites, I think more-so I am then they are, I'm not allergic to dogs in-general, just oddly his bites, this never has happened before, but I think it's been giving me headaches lately, and making me nauseous, allergy medications do help me out, so I'm really working the best as I can to get him to stop biting."


do you have infections from his bites? not just yourself but other family members?
back to page one -- there is mention that you are afraid if the biting doesn't stop he will be re-homed.
Is this "allergy" talk actually preparation to justify in re-homing him.
I wouldn't be adverse to the idea . If things continue he will end up being one messed up dog.


to all others sorry for the jumble - computer had been down for several days and just catching up ---


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

No. You need to listen, because your attitude is absolutely ridiculous and I'm sick of it. I came on these forums looking to fix the mistakes and figure out how to battle all of this. When I say I'm listening to the advice given to me. I am. I am not being defensive, and I have been re-reading my own post (the information given to me.)

Also, you are so quick to judge it's absolutely ridiculous. No. It was not my little brother who overhyped our dog. It was my old brother who is 24 years old and he knows **** better, he refused to listen to me or my sister because his mentality is; "It's just a dog, they're supposed to." When I told him not to. This is where the biting habit began. The breeder even said so herself her dogs never done that, because again, my brother was the one who caused the rough play time. Puppies mouth, I understand that. But grasping me his whole mouth, biting, wagging his tail while making a growling noise and pulling is NOT OK. And I've been doing everything to correct it.

You are invalid. Yesterday my puppy went through many naps in a peaceful area where nobody woke him up. But again, even when not revved up, and no one paying attention to him (supervising him under an eye), he continues to do this. I did not take him anywhere, besides my backyard to potty. And he randomly did it.

Secondly. Again, you are so quick to judge it's absolutely ridiculous. No. My sister does NOT own the dog, my mom does, you know why because she was the one who paid for the puppy, she was the one who gave my sister the money and sent her off to meet the breeder who was recommended to us. My mother is a huge business lady, so she couldn't herself because her clients call every 2 seconds.

Another thing is that you refuse to understand is the fact that there is 12 people in this household. 12! If it was my dog and I was the only one in the household I would have no problems, you don't understand the frustration, everyone wants to do their own thing when it comes to the dog, because apparently everyone in this household is a "dog expert" Because their friends have dogs. I can't even feed my puppy correctly without my older brothers and or mom wanting to give him a treat every 5 minutes and wanting to switch his food brand when I tell them not to but they refuse to listen.

Also, yes he bites when taking off his harness, and collar. I have been googling the issue on these forums and people are saying it's normal puppy behaviour, and to give him a treat whenever I'm taking it off and putting it on. Or a toy, or a bone. This does work, whenever I do exchange something and he numbs on whatever I give him.

Sorry I'm not the best dog trainer there is, I'm a newbie, just like everyone else here once was. I refuse to give up on my puppy, I'm trying everything to fix it. My first tactic to conqueror his biting a long time ago, when gently playing with him. Like I said he never bit, and he avoided mouthing until my brother shoved his fingers in his mouth, and that's when he started the rough play. (Grasping us with his whole mouth) because that's how my brother decided to play with him. After that he started mouthing to a large extent. I tried the original tactic which I told everyone in the household to do, which was praise when he used a soft mouth then yelp and walk away, ending playtime and staying away for 30 seconds. It worked amazingly well because he would lick right after and stop it... But then, like I said my brother taught him to mouth so bad that he thinks it's playtime.
This is why the behaviour is really hard. Because even walking away from him, he chases after and bites and holds onto my leg pulling back. So I can't even use that tactic. Redirecting on toys, which many has told me to do on these forums does not work, I don't understand the fact that you're pissed off because what, I told everyone to keep a toy on-hand? No, I'm listening to members advice to keep it constant, this is so nobody changes anything, and try to do their own thing, also so the dog doesn't get confused. 

Like honestly. I'm so sick of the attitude coming from your posts against me, I tried to be nice but I can't take it anymore. Like I said I'm a newbie, just like everyone else once was, I'm trying my best and trying to overcome the obstacles that I'm facing because there is so many people in this household.

Lastly if I was never listening to anyone, then I would've failed at potty training. Because of these forums, my puppy now goes outside, he warns me whenever he needs to and pulls me or makes a noise before he pulls when he needs to go. When before I couldn't get him to potty ONCE outside because he'd hold while being out in the backyard and as soon as I brought him in he'd pee / poop. There are still accidents happening in the house, but that's because again - people not listening to me. 

And today, nobody stimulated him, I got ready for school, and he made me late today because he took off with my shoe, trotting away like a happy little monster he is and then he kept trying to follow me when I tried to leave the door and wouldn't let me leave, I absolutely love this dog. So seriously quit it. 

And even without stimulation in the morning, before I even got dressed. Nobody was awake. Nobody, besides me. I took him
out for potty, and he did his job. Brought him in, and then 10 minutes later, he started biting my leg hard, without any stimulation or even me playing with him. Or even anyone being awake. And this was first thing in the morning! He had loads of your of sleep, he still did it even when he wasn't tired.

So don't give me that, seriously.

I'm no longer taking him anywhere to prevent over stimulation like people have said, and will keep scheduling time for naps. And I will be taking him to obedience classes when he gets his 2nd shot, this Sunday he turns 12 weeks, currently 11.

I will be taking a video at o
ne point to show you guys exactly what is happening.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

And no, the re-homing I'm not gonna re-home him because he's my responsibility and I refuse to give up on him, and throw him away like that. I wanted a dog. My duty to fix it.

And with the biting, my skin puffs up, I will take pictures, I then get a reaction from it where I get a really bad headache, it's weird. I never had allergies to a dog. The puffing up skin has been happening to everyone in the household, I think for me though only I'm the one getting headaches from it which is really weird. Taking medication gets rid of it, but the moment I'm bit again, it comes back. 15 minutes later.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Last thing, obviously there is only one leader. Obviously that even everyone telling him different things confuses the dog. But like I said even trying to talk to everyone they refuse to listen because again their mentality; "It's just a dog." And then act like the biggest dog expert there is. They don't listen to me. Everyone wants to do their own thing.

Out of everyone the dog has bonded to me the most. Out of everyone, I do the most work, I'm the one who taught him how to sit, and I'm continuing to improve it, I'm the one who taught him down, come and other commands. I'm the one who has been fixing his bad potty habit that everyone else caused (thank you forums it has improved drastically) I'm the one who cleans up after all his mess and accidents. I'm the one who feeds him and even bothers to give him the correct amount.

So seriously, come on. 

And now he walks on a leash with me, everywhere in the household, and whenever he tries to chase he gets tethered, and or when I can't supervise him for a couple of minutes.

So yes, I'm listening. And now he has scheduled naps, and now he won't be going anywhere besides the yard, until he's a bit older because he is just a baby. It's not fair to him if I'm bringing him everywhere.

Never knew that being defensive against someone's attitude meant that was a bad thing...


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Haystack said:


> And no, the re-homing I'm not gonna re-home him because he's my responsibility and I refuse to give up on him, and throw him away like that. I wanted a dog. My duty to fix it.
> 
> *And with the biting, my skin puffs up, I will take pictures*, I then get a reaction from it where I get a really bad headache, it's weird. I never had allergies to a dog. The puffing up skin has been happening to everyone in the household, I think for me though only I'm the one getting headaches from it which is really weird. Taking medication gets rid of it, but the moment I'm bit again, it comes back. 15 minutes later.


Some people are allergic to dog saliva, (one of my family members is, confirmed by an allergist). This should be looked at by a human doctor. Please bring this to your mom's attention right away.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Haystack,I think you are doing a fantastic job with this puppy.I've been reading your posts and can see how hard you're trying to raise him right.But if there are 11 people fighting you every step of the way I just don't see a good outcome.Any possibility of a family meeting to get everyone on board with a reasonable training protocol?


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> Haystack said:
> 
> 
> > And no, the re-homing I'm not gonna re-home him because he's my responsibility and I refuse to give up on him, and throw him away like that. I wanted a dog. My duty to fix it.
> ...


I did tell her she was really concerned, it's weird though because when he licks I have no reaction, only when it comes to biting. My friend thinks because he doesn't have all his shots.

I will go see my family doctor and go see, cause if it's the saliva wouldn't licking have a reaction or not really? Now I'm terrified. I'll mark that on my calendar.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You have many things going against you with training this dog, but the comments about consistency are valid. Also, you sound young, which means you may not have the power to control what is happening in your household with so many other people around. It's a problem, because puppies need consistency. The main issue I see is that your dog is confused due to so many different people taking charge and you not having the authority to be the only one who handles the dog. The most successful handlers I know with German Shepherds have ONE handler in the house, and only one. Unless your family agrees to let you be that person, you are fighting your family every step you take. 

The advice here is good. Please don't take your feelings of frustration out on people who are trying to help you. You need to get your dog to stop biting you and to keep him confined more so he can't do things like run off with your shoe when you are late for school. If you chase him to get it back, you've taught him another bad behavior. Then work on one behavior at a time, be consistent and train him. If your family members all think they know better, you are going to have a confused adult dog with behavior problems. I agree with Dogma, can you get everyone together, explain the situation and ask them to please listen or to read what has been posted here to you so they understand how serious this can be? He is a young puppy, now is the time to get this taken care of because they don't get easier as they get older unless they are trained with consistency. Every single interaction you have with your puppy is teaching him something.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Haystack,I think you are doing a fantastic job with this puppy.I've been reading your posts and can see how hard you're trying to raise him right.But if there are 11 people fighting you every step of the way I just don't see a good outcome.Any possibility of a family meeting to get everyone on board with a reasonable training protocol?


Thanks. Well yesterday it turned into a little one because I was arguing with my mom and one of my eldest brothers that they shouldn't be catering to changing his diet, because he's a fussy eater.. I even told them dogs including puppies will not stave themselves, but they didn't listen so at 11 PM at night they ran off and bought him cans of food.. Sigh, rather than thever specific kibble we have for him that the vet recommended for us to go out and buy.

It was really frustrating, because instead of giving his kibble they gave it to him without even measuring it correctly. So I had to take it away from him and put some back and measure some, while mixing it with his other food so he doesn't get the runs and an upset stomach.

That's how frustrating it is. My other brother who created the biting problem just stays in his room all day, and only leaves to go hanget out with friends, so doubt he would care.

I'm gonna try to get everyone to sit down over the course of dinner and tell them that I'm gonna be the one in charge and nobody does anything unless I say so because it's getting out of hand.

Did you know they were trying to feed him "Little Caesar" dog food little tins, because they think he's starving? I told him that's basically like McDonald's for him, and he shouldn't be eating that but they don't listen, so what I did was take the packs they bought, drove an 1 hour drive and gave some of them along with a regular size of blue buffalo to this homeless women who owns a pomeranian and gave her $250 for herself.

Rest went to the food bank.

But yeah that's my big priority to get them to sit down and listen and me take primary control, I think I'll be the one taking him for obedience school as well and pay for it myself.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Haystack said:


> I did tell her she was really concerned, it's weird though because when he licks I have no reaction, only when it comes to biting. My friend thinks because he doesn't have all his shots.
> 
> I will go see my family doctor and go see, cause if it's the saliva wouldn't licking have a reaction or not really? Now I'm terrified. I'll mark that on my calendar.


I'm really not qualified to say, one way or the other, but you should be able to ask your doctor. It's not the end of the world. My relative that reacts to dog saliva does have a dog of his own. He deliberately picked a breed that isn't "drooly" or mouthy, and he keeps his hands away from other dog's faces (including my dogs, when we visit), uses a chuck-it launcher for fetch, and so on. He and his dog are both happy and fine.


If you're reacting, you should see a doctor so you *know*, one way or the other. Then you can make good decisions with facts - trying to guess makes a frustrating situation even more stressful.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Haystack said:


> Thanks. Well yesterday it turned into a little one because I was arguing with my mom and one of my eldest brothers that they shouldn't be catering to changing his diet, because he's a fussy eater.. I even told them dogs including puppies will not stave themselves, but they didn't listen so at 11 PM at night they ran off and bought him cans of food.. Sigh, rather than thever specific kibble we have for him that the vet recommended for us to go out and buy.
> 
> It was really frustrating, because instead of giving his kibble they gave it to him without even measuring it correctly. So I had to take it away from him and put some back and measure some, while mixing it with his other food so he doesn't get the runs and an upset stomach.
> 
> ...


I'm annoyed with your family after reading just this post. I can imagine what it's like for you trying to deal with them. If there is a good side, you are learning valuable lessons in being assertive and making it stick. You are also going to be your family members' teacher on dog behavior and training, whether you realize it or not. Families are complex and yours is large, so you have even more to deal with. The number of interactions goes up exponentially each time you add someone new to the mix, so with 11 other people, all having opinions, the possibilities for making bad or stupid choices on their parts are overwhelming. The only way you can counter that is to be consistent and stay calm when talking to them. 11 pm is not a good time to talk about anything calmly. Don't get angry with them, don't ever lose your temper, just stay calm and keep repeating the same things.

I'm reacting also to the comment above "a dog is just a dog." Exactly, it's a dog, not a child, and dogs need different handling than humans do. Dogs give back what you put into them. If they are trained and socalized, their adult behaviors reflect that. If not, the dog is out of control. Would they watch videos of adult German Shepherds who are behaving well and of some who are completely out of control? Then ask them which behaviors they would like to see in your dog. If they want the calm, controlled, trained dogs, then they need to step aside and listen. If they want a wild monster, then I don't know what to tell you.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> You have many things going against you with training this dog, but the comments about consistency are valid. Also, you sound young, which means you may not have the power to control what is happening in your household with so many other people around. It's a problem, because puppies need consistency. The main issue I see is that your dog is confused due to so many different people taking charge and you not having the authority to be the only one who handles the dog. The most successful handlers I know with German Shepherds have ONE handler in the house, and only one. Unless your family agrees to let you be that person, you are fighting your family every step you take.
> 
> The advice here is good. Please don't take your feelings of frustration out on people who are trying to help you. You need to get your dog to stop biting you and to keep him confined more so he can't do things like run off with your shoe when you are late for school. If you chase him to get it back, you've taught him another bad behavior. Then work on one behavior at a time, be consistent and train him. If your family members all think they know better, you are going to have a confused adult dog with behavior problems. I agree with Dogma, can you get everyone together, explain the situation and ask them to please listen or to read what has been posted here to you so they understand how serious this can be? He is a young puppy, now is the time to get this taken care of because they don't get easier as they get older unless they are trained with consistency. Every single interaction you have with your puppy is teaching him something.


You're exactly right, sorry I don't mean to take out my frustation or anything like that, I just felt like one of the members on here were being very rude, and aggressive yet judgemental for no reason at all, I'm a newbie who's trying my best after all. Attacking me when I'm in an upset is harsh. Because I know I'm not the best.

The breeder said I have the most knowledge on dogs than anyone in my family, that's why she was not so nice to my sister and sort of scolded my sister lol. My sister and my two younger siblings, 12 & 15 and my other old brother is the only one's who listen, the rest do not. My dad listens to me too. My brother's still refuse to get rid of that dumb "It's just a dog mentality" I honestly treat this puppy as my own baby lmao, he's bonded to me the most and he's like my new best friend now, so I refuse to allow them to create behaviour problems.
So I will be talking to them later about this. My sister has told them that but they won't budge. Because their friends owns a cane Corso and even that dog has bad behaviour issues. The owner even feeds his cane Corso chocolate! And that gave my brother and excuse to feed him human food when I didnt want that.

But I understand, and you are very correct my household basically whoever is the oldest has more authority. Basically, everyone follows that. I'm only 17, but I make tons of money for someone my age to support this puppy, so I think I'll be paying for a personal trainer if he gets older and I cannot get this done. I will pay for obedience school myself and take him myself, because it's turning into madness.

I just want best for him you know I love this dog so much.

Thank you though ^.^ you guys have super helpful so far like thank you guys so much the potty training is going marvelous


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Here is my little monster for you guys interested.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

:hammer:Sounds soooo frustrating!Wishing you the best as you deal with itFeel free to PM some of us if you need to rant


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

One of the reasons I've been stressing you get a trainer ASAP is because if I remember correctly...Being a teenager sucks. No one listens to you even when you are right. 

Your family getting advice from a "paid professional" is probably going to be the best way to get THEM to make the changes they need.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Pretty puppy. What is his name?


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Thanks guys









His name is Luke, named after two things. One being one of my friends of the name of "Luka" ... Who we all lost (he was 19 years old when he was murdered.) Which took a toll on everyone, sigh.

And our friend's german shepherd who was named "Luke" who passed away, recently.

He has giant paws, only one in his litter who did haha.


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## Besketball (Apr 27, 2016)

This whole thread is an absolute mess. I watched it from the beginning. I definitely think obedience classes will help, and find a trainer. A good trainer. You need someone who knows what they're doing to help you. You cannot continue to allow this, because every day it goes on, the older he gets, the bigger, and the harder headed he will get. He thinks it's okay because you aren't doing anything to stop the behavior. What commands does he know? Do you train him every day? He has to be trained in short increments throughout the day. Or you'll have a menace on your hand. 

A trainer will help get the whole family on board, if you can't. 

I wish you the best of luck. 

(I have the same collar as he does, haha!)


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Omg. That little cutie is causing all this trouble? No way. 

Easy solution. Bring him to me. He will never bite you again


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Besketball said:


> This whole thread is an absolute mess. I watched it from the beginning. I definitely think obedience classes will help, and find a trainer. A good trainer. You need someone who knows what they're doing to help you. You cannot continue to allow this, because every day it goes on, the older he gets, the bigger, and the harder headed he will get. He thinks it's okay because you aren't doing anything to stop the behavior. What commands does he know? Do you train him every day? He has to be trained in short increments throughout the day. Or you'll have a menace on your hand.
> 
> A trainer will help get the whole family on board, if you can't.
> 
> ...


He knows sit, down, off, come, name his name so far. Next thing on the list is leave it, and then a safety emergency word (to get him to stop, when he's older, like.. So he doesn't on the road.), paw and lots more.

I do training sessions everyday, and do some when no one is around which makes a lot easier. I notice he tends to ignore eye contact so I need to make that a number one priority in his training, now he's doing it more because I'm making him.

Hm. What do you guys say is the best form of correction, and can you explain it in detail for me. 

I'm most likely gonna get a personal trainer for him, but gonna try how obedience school turns out first. ^.^

It's such a cute little collar isn't it lmao


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

No baby this . Nice looking d o g . Hardwired to think and act like a d o g .

My comment about the little brother was because you had mentioned a 12 and a 15 year old. Who knew there was a 24 year old lurking in his bedroom ready to duke it out with a pup . He should know better . He acted like a 12 year .

Establish ONE person in charge.

Sounds like you mom wanted the dog for protection - but she is too busy on the phone making deals to deal with the family and the dog.

The only quiet home with 12 people in it is a funeral home. 

You do have your work cut out for you. 

I listed all your posts because you had been saying one thing and then denying them -- example , he is not overtired , over stimulated. Everything you said pointed to that being the case. Other posters agreed . You said no .
Until you get a view of what is going on you can not make changes.

Sometimes when you are in the middle of things you can't see the forest for the trees . You are so involved you can't get the long view . That is what I was trying to show.

I believe on page one you said you were tired, frustrated and ready to cry . 
So you are overtired , over stimulated yourself. You need a break . But someone has to take charge and
you might be the best and only candidate.

Puppy doesn't look like a drivey wild eyed . Looks like American bred lines?

Are you using a crate yet? I mean using a crate properly for CONSTRUCTIVE confinement.

Get your family together and use some of the $$$$ resources that they or you have and build a little
pen outside that provides shelter from sun and wind and visual overload , a bucket of clean water ,
a place to relieve himself and even eat in peace and quiet . 

12 people in the house - I am sure each and everyone of you bring home friends (sisters boyfriend)
and have guests and parties -- increasing the house-population to that of a small village.
The dog would do very well to have a place to go to that is strictly off limits to all guests. Otherwise
MORE problems . As the dog grows into adulthood his current unrestricted bite behaviour could land him in
serious hot water . 

If you had such a place you could have risen out of bed, taken pup out of his crate , popped him outside for
the hour that it takes you to prepare for school, have a quick cup of ... and a brekkie of some sort - then ,
you bring him in to his crate, or leave him outside to deal with him later - social excursion, quick smart on lead training ,
behaviour modification etc.
Had you put the pup into the crate , constructive confinement , meaning he can not get himself into trouble ,
would have prevented the dog from grabbing your shoe and causing you to chase him. Boy , chase is to primal and
exciting to dogs . Either way . You , them, They , you. 
Now the dog has another view of you . 
Every interaction with you and that dog should be positive association , and positive in who is in charge and positive in
what the clear cut expectations are - the line in the sand.

NO teeth on any one of you. Effective correction. Sharp authoritative NO. 

The vet prescribed food isn't any big whoop either . Usually as poor if not more so than commercially available food.

Who does the poop clean-up? Have you noticed changes in stink and volume with some of the products.

Maybe that little chore needs to be put on a rotation so that all members get experience -- good and bad , that it takes to care for this living being.

Dog . Not fur baby . Not baby. Dog .


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Omg. That little cutie is causing all this trouble? No way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, this is the little cutie ie 

You know many times I heard that one  haha


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> No baby this . Nice looking d o g . Hardwired to think and act like a d o g .
> 
> My comment about the little brother was because you had mentioned a 12 and a 15 year old. Who knew there was a 24 year old lurking in his bedroom ready to duke it out with a pup . He should know better . He acted like a 12 year .
> 
> ...


I know he's a dog still my baby though. 

The breeder recalled saying he was all German Lines my sister said, not American. I feel as if he is American since his snout is skinny in-front but on the side he's has a giant snout with such giant paws, so his structure is very thick boned. 

And yeah, my older brother is like that, despite his age he still acts like a child, it's terrible in situations like this because it's 'fun' in his head. And because he listens to his friends. Since then, he never interacts with the dog because he doesn't come upstairs, sometimes he'll come up to show his friend from a view, then they go back downstairs. It's annoying because he dumped us with his behaviour problems and now he wants to do that biting sport with him (forget the name of it).. It's annoying.

Yup my mom wanted him as a protection dog, I honestly don't care about that all dogs are naturally protective of family and their territory so, all I care about is a well-behaved family dog where I have a running pal, and all of that. Love that. I didn't mean to deny, because at first I did believe that was the issue (tiredness and stimulation) but then I paid attention and saw how it kept continuing so, I was like hm. Like even today, after potty time and the house was quiet because everyone was sleeping, and I didn't even stimulate him or tire him, still decided to bite my leg. But then he trotted off.

Don't worry I'll buy him a pen, I should've a long time ago, to be honest. 

He's crate trained and perfectly fine with his crate, I was gonna leave him in there longer but he really had to potty and since he had the leash on I decided to keep him around me a bit longer, usually I'll put him back.

What do you guys recommend should I feed him Blue Buffalo, or a kibble that has duck/rice/chicken or should I feed him canned foods. I wanna have 1 final brand for him, so what is that the best?

I do the poop cleanup.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Also another question guys. What do you do when your puppy is scared of like.. The night lol? He wouldn't potty last night because it was dark out.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Haystack said:


> You're exactly right, sorry I don't mean to take out my frustation or anything like that, I just felt like one of the members on here were being very rude, and aggressive yet judgemental for no reason at all, I'm a newbie who's trying my best after all. Attacking me when I'm in an upset is harsh. Because I know I'm not the best.
> 
> The breeder said I have the most knowledge on dogs than anyone in my family, that's why she was not so nice to my sister and sort of scolded my sister lol. My sister and my two younger siblings, 12 & 15 and my other old brother is the only one's who listen, the rest do not. My dad listens to me too. My brother's still refuse to get rid of that dumb "It's just a dog mentality" I honestly treat this puppy as my own baby lmao, he's bonded to me the most and he's like my new best friend now, so I refuse to allow them to create behaviour problems.
> So I will be talking to them later about this. My sister has told them that but they won't budge. Because their friends owns a cane Corso and even that dog has bad behaviour issues. The owner even feeds his cane Corso chocolate! And that gave my brother and excuse to feed him human food when I didnt want that.
> ...


This isn't a criticism but an observation based on what I read of your posts. I was behind and didn't read every one, but I am getting a picture of what your homelife is like. Families organize themselves from structured on one end to chaotic on the other end. Yours is closer to chaotic than structured. If you want to create structure for your dog within a chaotic framework, you need to know exactly what you want for your dog and what you expect from family members. There should also be consequences for not following the structure you set up. I'm not sure yet what I would suggest but others here have given you a lot of good information. I'll try to give examples, though.

This is just a guess, but I'll bet your mother and other family members who thought about it, are familiar with an adult GSD that is trained, calm and well behaved. They have no idea the work that goes into creating a mature dog that is a good family member. They assume because they don't know any better, that a calm adult was allowed to run wild in the home without any structure and just happened to end up a well trained mature dog. It doesn't happen. Yes, we can make mistakes with our dogs and we can overcome them, but in the end, to get the outcome everyone wants, you need to make that happen.

At 17, with younger siblings, you do have some power within your family. The calmer and more directed you are, the more they will listen to you because they really have no other options. Since you are earning money to pay for training that also elevates your status in the family. But be aware, if you change the dynamics within your family to become more assertive suddenly, there will be pushback. We all tend to get comfortable with the families we have and most people don't make waves. You are at the perfect age to start showing even more maturity and to create the structure your dog needs and to make them listen and follow, because you are almost an adult. That is when there is often a behavioral shift in families and family relationships. I'm only explaining this because you need to understand that you might seem to be getting somewhere with your family, only to find out that they are reverting back to old behaviors and ways of treating you or not listening. It's common. 

So, if I were in your situation, I would make a very clear, simple two column list of what I want to accomplish with the dog. On the left side, I would list my goals. Under Training, I would list things like Sit, Down, Stay, Recall, etc. On the right side, I would list how I can accomplish those things. Then I would have a title on the left column for House Manners and list those - not running off with shoes, not chewing things up, and on the right how to make that happen (crating, etc). Then finally a section on health and nutrition. Or something along those lines. If they can see exactly what needs to be done to accomplish goals with your dog and if you are firm that it's going to happen your way, they will very likely at some point, start respecting your calm, organized structure. Worst case, if you can get them to just stop undoing what you are doing, you will be that much further ahead.

This sounds sneaky, but if it was my family, I'd say, If you do ________, then ________ will happen and make the examples extreme enough to get their attention but plausible. Example, if you uncrate the dog when I have put him into the crate and leave him unsupervised in the house or a friend's house, he will chew up shoes, destroy electric cords, pee in the house, etc. Those are all things an unsupervised untrained puppy could have has done (my house in particular with various puppies at different times). If you change the diet, the dog will have diarrhea somewhere, maybe in your room and maybe on your bed. If you encourage the dog to bite you in play, he will bite someone else not in play when he is bigger and stronger. The point is that behaviors you allow now have consequences eventually, not always right away. I would make the examples things you know they don't want, so they get the point. The goal is for them to stand aside, let you handle the dog, make decisions and also be responsible for the outcome. If they mess around with your training and disrupt your structure, then they are responsible for any bad outcomes.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Haystack said:


> Also another question guys. What do you do when your puppy is scared of like.. The night lol? He wouldn't potty last night because it was dark out.


Take him outside with a flashlight and walk around with him until he goes.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Posting a video right now to show you guys what he does when biting.. It was taken a couple of days ago by my younger brother (15) and his friend.

This is what he does to everyone, and this is why I the yelp tactic, and or toy redirecting tactic does not work, or even walking away and ignoring.

Posting it in a bit, will edit this post.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Video #1: This is a video of my brother, my brother wasn't paying any attention to him, so he came up to my brother and started biting out of the blue. 



 ---> He wasn't stimulated at all, and or had went for a walk during this time

Video #2: 



 --> Brother's friend being bit, and him holding on, this is why we cannot walk away and ignore him.

What do you guys recommend on what to do for correcting this? Now that you've seen the video, and can you explain in detail.
Because I don't think this truly is regular puppy nipping


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

Looks like regular puppy playing to me!  If he won't let go, you can curl a little bit of his lip over his teeth which will make him open his mouth and let go. It's also a correction so that he'll learn to stop doing that. Good luck!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in both videos the boys are accommodating the dog .

setting up the situation, encouraging by being passive about it .

that is not a terrorist dog . Looks a bit wussy , meaning easy to fix . 
Not hard core drivey . Just has not been stopped in a meaningful way.
I would not provide him with a substitute to chew on. He chews on you - he gets
a surprise . 

I mean , what is that ? A socked foot conveniently available for the dog to tug 
without any resistance or correction. The dog is making you all his toys .
In the first video the boy flirts with the dog , acts like prey , short evasive moves just
like you would do with a flirt pole.

If the boys don't know what to do , and the dog isn't shown how to be and what to do
then there is no more contact .

The dog gets all his life experiences from you . Other wise he will be in the crate , in the new kennel 
that is being set up. 

No more trips with sister who will take him to boyfriend's house.

I would say a management problem . You can and need to fix this now . 

Does the dog play ball ? Does the dog play ball and deliver to you to push your button to continue with play?


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> in both videos the boys are accommodating the dog .
> 
> setting up the situation, encouraging by being passive about it .
> 
> ...


I talked to them they said

They did nothing so they could record it, and the sock, his friend likes to keep his socks. So my brother was playing his game, and that's when he started getting bit, so he stands up (video #1), my brother does nothing so it could be recorded, and his friend video #2 was just walking by regularly, when he swaps to bite, his friend said he lifted up his leg because the bite hurt so bad even through the sock.

And yeah, he plays ball, and then he gets it and does a giant shake with his mouth.

And you are right, he is a bit timid, out of all the puppies in the litter, he tends to me the more-so shy one, but very good temperament.

So, question, what do you recommend doing to fix this correctly, can you put it in-detail, so I can get it stop.

Just now I was continuing to teach him "off" - seems like whenever I don't have a treat he doesn't listen and mouths and forgets what "off" means to him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OH??? This is the "infamous" Haystack!! I've been "lurking" as it were and by and large you have gotten a lot of useful advice! 

But ... it seems you still have problems, some of them are dog issues and some of them as "LuvShepards" just addressed are people issues! No one here can help you with the family thing, your going to have to do that on your own ... sorry. 

But the dog biting the crap out of everyone?? That can be solved, you already know most of the typical approaches, I think they are all in this thread?? And ... here is another very good trainer that has some more ... as well as other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL39rA__veYgR4EvJoPQhwRlxZmW5H3IEm

I have no shortage of advise, but what I tend to do is "focus" in on an issue and look for solutions. As I see your biggest problem is the dog is "still" biting the crap out of everyone?? It sounds like you have tried all the typical remedies and still ... the dog is biting the crap out of people! 


Ok then time to switch it up and as I want to say ...









for the "puppy" time to switch it up, quite the games and use this:
Pet Convincer.com

No muss no fuss you tell him "NO" once and if "non compliance" you blast him with the "PC" and issue you a command! I would also suggest sign as "always" you start training and working on "The Place Command" and doing "Sit on the Dog." Those "train" "calming" behaviour into the dog! 
Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD

And if you'd like the "whole ball of wax" as it were is here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And for the record the "Pet Convincer" is a simple Bicycle Air pump, most likely you can find one locally for $16 bucks?? 

Welcome aboard and as always ... ask questions.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Lol the biting video. I think you'd really realize how mild he is if you saw my crazy thing when I brought him home  

Hanging on the foot , actually the second he went for the sock , I'd probably have him by the scruff and be saying no to pull him off. You guys just let him sit there , no interruption of the behavior or negative marker . Keep a leash or a small tab on him . When he goes for your legs hold him away from you until he calms down . 

These dogs were bred to bite . They explore the world with their mouth , the most hilarious game is watching a huge person jump around and dance away to escape them lol. When you see them thinking about going after pants , grab the leash don't let it happen before it starts . 

Really should look for a few of the other land shark vids on here , might give some perspective for how typical it is if not addressed right away. Hang in there


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

mego said:


> Lol the biting video. I think you'd really realize how mild he is if you saw my crazy thing when I brought him home
> 
> Hanging on the foot , actually the second he went for the sock , I'd probably have him by the scruff and be saying no to pull him off. You guys just let him sit there , no interruption of the behavior or negative marker . Keep a leash or a small tab on him . When he goes for your legs hold him away from you until he calms down .
> 
> ...


Oh wow, is this really mild? He has a very awesome temperament so thankful for that, but ouuuuuch those teeth darn hurt, I just hate when he does that you know.

I did that earlier actually, I grabbed him by the scruff, and pulled him off my brother (today), those videos were another day, and I firmly said "NO!" Did not help  - I'm gonna keep at it though, even the breeder said to do that, so I guess the scruff and firm "NO!" for now. I'm just terrified I'm gonna hurt him or make him fearful.

And check on the leash thing been doing that  Will no longer be giving him access to the house.

Jeez guys, whoever had it worse than I do, you guys deserve thousands of medals.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We need to stick to the OP's questions. That puppy in the videos is biting a little which is very typical at that age. My WL puppy was biting into a plastic storage container with about 10 lbs of junk in it and dragging it across the room at 8 weeks. He was biting us so hard, he drew blood. If we pulled away, he went after the foot or leg or hand to bite it again. And he's supposedly not drivey. But that is another issue. It doesn't really matter if we have more difficult dogs than the OP, I was able to get my new dog to stop because I insisted my family either follow our plan to teach bite inhibition or not touch him. 

I had a WGSL puppy with high prey drive but not the same as WL drive. We were able to stop her from biting my kids when they ran around by giving her one simple correction. When she bit me, I gently pushed her bottom lip over her tooth and she bit herself. She yelped and never bit any of us again. I tried it with my WL and it amped him up. He started biting more. I stopped him by putting treats into a closed hand until he licked it open. That worked for him. You need to find something you are comfortable with that works with your dog. People here have told me a self bite will make a dog aggressive or hand shy. It did nothing at all to my female except teach her to make the choice not to bite.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> We need to stick to the OP's questions. That puppy in the videos is biting a little which is very typical at that age. My WL puppy was biting into a plastic storage container with about 10 lbs of junk in it and dragging it across the room at 8 weeks. He was biting us so hard, he drew blood. If we pulled away, he went after the foot or leg or hand to bite it again. And he's supposedly not drivey. But that is another issue. It doesn't really matter if we have more difficult dogs than the OP, I was able to get my new dog to stop because I insisted my family either follow our plan to teach bite inhibition or not touch him.
> 
> I had a WGSL puppy with high prey drive but not the same as WL drive. We were able to stop her from biting my kids when they ran around by giving her one simple correction. When she bit me, I gently pushed her bottom lip over her tooth and she bit herself. She yelped and never bit any of us again. I tried it with my WL and it amped him up. He started biting more. I stopped him by putting treats into a closed hand until he licked it open. That worked for him. You need to find something you are comfortable with that works with your dog. People here have told me a self bite will make a dog aggressive or hand shy. It did nothing at all to my female except teach her to make the choice not to bite.


Hm I could try the lip thing I hope it doesn't amp him up, seems like any correction I do amps him up. Like me even teaching him off, he like instantly forgets it the moment he goes form my hands or fingers. He doesn't even respond, he's just so focused on biting... Even scruff grabbing and firmly saying "NO!" amps him up so much it's ridiculous, he just doesn't quit it, and when I try to look him in the eyes as I say it, it's as if he zones me out and still avoids eye contact but my hands or feet his target as if he locked onto it.

I constantly hand feed him but still no difference. When he gets to biting us he has the biggest wildest eyes I have ever seen.

I'm gonna keep re-reading everything you guys recommend, I'll try the lip bite too and see how that goes.

He will not bite people he barely knows, he bites the ones who play with him, walk him, feed him. So I really do assume this is a big driven play issue.


ahhhhh lmao


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Also I usually do the closed hand thing and then say off when he backs off he instantly backs off, but after that when it comes to him biting us or something he shouldn't be doing its like he never knew that word.

I'll also try letting him lick my hand till it's open, should I praise him during his licks because whenever he licks I do praise him..

One question guys maybe I should freeze a washcloth to numb his gums maybe it's just teething? In-general


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Haystack said:


> One question guys maybe I should freeze a washcloth to numb his gums maybe it's just teething? In-general


If he's 10 weeks old, he's not teething yet. That usually occurs in the 4-6 month old range, so he's a bit young yet.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Still need help with him guys. Today again without stimulation or any of that (not even being tired) and my sister had lost his leash, he went on to bite my sister with a big snarl on his snout as he held on, we tried the lip thing and that amped him worse. We tried yelping made it worse. Tried ignoring him, made it worse. Even scruff grabbing doesn't stop him? My brother had to pick him up to stop him and instead he put his teeth right on my brothers neck but luckily didn't bite his neck down.

It's getting out of control


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Haystack said:


> Still need help with him guys. Today again without stimulation or any of that (not even being tired) and my sister had lost his leash, he went on to bite my sister with a big snarl on his snout as he held on, we tried the lip thing and that amped him worse. We tried yelping made it worse. Tried ignoring him, made it worse. Even scruff grabbing doesn't stop him? My brother had to pick him up to stop him and instead he put his teeth right on my brothers neck but luckily didn't bite his neck down.
> 
> It's getting out of control


Very inconsistent. Pick ONE method of dealing with biting and do JUST that one method for a week. 

I'd bet a bag of ziwi you'll see results.

If not then choose a different one. You keep changing the rules on this pup. Not fair to him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Haystack said:


> Still need help with him guys. Today again without stimulation or any of that (not even being tired) and my sister had lost his leash, he went on to bite my sister with a big snarl on his snout as he held on, we tried the lip thing and that amped him worse. We tried yelping made it worse. Tried ignoring him, made it worse. Even scruff grabbing doesn't stop him? My brother had to pick him up to stop him and instead he put his teeth right on my brothers neck but luckily didn't bite his neck down.
> 
> It's getting out of control


He doesn't know what you want. You have three people all trying to handle him at once. It's your dog, you handle him. When he gets wound up and won't stop biting, forget discipline, just put him in his crate and leave the room. Let him settle down. When he is calm you take him out of the crate. Don't let your brother or sister touch him when he is acting up. It's too much stimulation for him at once and he thinks you are playing with him.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

Sounds like you have quite a handful. I really like the videos of this particular trainer on "Training Positive"...I forget his name, his dog is Solea, she is such a beautifully trained dog and it is great to watch him work with her. This is a video on puppy biting-






and one on walking-






You will need to do a lot of training with your pup in the weeks and months to come to keep him focused and engaged in positive activities. He will outgrow the biting with positive support from you. I would suggest limiting interactions with your other family members for now as you may be giving the puppy lots of mixed messages with out meaning to. Good Luck!!!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Haystack said:


> Hi, I'm new to these forums, and I've seen many similar threads to mine, but none of them are helping me, because I've attempted everything those people suggested.
> 
> Let me start off to say that I'm 17 years old, and I live in a large house with at least 12 people living in here (all family.)
> 
> ...


1. Do not play with him outside for a while, he thinks outside is play time, and the house is a toilet. Just take him for a long walk, this can take upwards of 3-4 hours. I would crate train him, put him in a crate for a couple hours, as soon as you take him out pick him up and run outside, go for a long walk, he will eventually have to pee. I had the same problem and this worked.
2. Short training sessions with VERY high value treats. Cheese or cut up hot dogs usually works wonders. Just keep doing it, 5 minutes 3 times a day. 
3. Keep him away from everyone in the house for a while, he thinks everyone is a play toy, 12 people you said so everyone wants to play with him. Keep him secluded for a little while, when he bites give a very loud NO and leave the room, every single time. Every single time. He will very soon realize that biting means he gets ignored. This worked well for me in the past as well.
4. Keep any old rag or handkerchief in your pocket at all times, when you need to re-direct him wave it in front of him like a snake, this pretty much always gets their attention, best and cheapest toy I ever had.
5. Keep doing the loud NO and get up and leave every time, it will get better after a few days. Keep doing it.
6. When he humps push him off and give a loud OFF.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> 1. Do not play with him outside for a while, he thinks outside is play time, and the house is a toilet. Just take him for a long walk, this can take upwards of 3-4 hours. I would crate train him, put him in a crate for a couple hours, as soon as you take him out pick him up and run outside, go for a long walk, he will eventually have to pee. I had the same problem and this worked.
> 2. Short training sessions with VERY high value treats. Cheese or cut up hot dogs usually works wonders. Just keep doing it, 5 minutes 3 times a day.
> 3. Keep him away from everyone in the house for a while, he thinks everyone is a play toy, 12 people you said so everyone wants to play with him. Keep him secluded for a little while, when he bites give a very loud NO and leave the room, every single time. Every single time. He will very soon realize that biting means he gets ignored. This worked well for me in the past as well.
> 4. Keep any old rag or handkerchief in your pocket at all times, when you need to re-direct him wave it in front of him like a snake, this pretty much always gets their attention, best and cheapest toy I ever had.
> ...


He's a baby. He shouldn't walk far at all until he is older. It's too hard on their joints at that age. There are other ways to work off energy. Humping is best ignored. Even pushing him off will give it too much attention. I just got up and walked away and my puppy stopped doing that very quickly.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We've had controversy here about videos,but this worked very well to teach my puppy Sit. I did t use an Xpen, mine knocked it over, but their method of marking the Sit is excellent. Mine could .sit by 9 weeks. I used his lunch kibble to train


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Are you willing to try something different? I thought more about what you said. Your puppy isn't responding to your efforts to get him to stop biting because he thinks you are playing. Dogs don't know our intentions, they read our behaviors and what you and your siblings are doing reads "playtime" to your dog.

Watch the two Leerburg videos. The first just explains the Xpen. You may not be able to use one because you need to own one and you need a dedicated space to keep it. But you can learn from her behaviors. There are many things going on on the second video.

1. The dog has only one handler. In all the videos of Endy, the Malinois, you never see anyone working him but Cindy.
2. There are no distractions. There are no other people around and there is no noise. When you teach a behavior you need to first teach it in a quiet place. 
3. Cindy is not talking. You don't hear her say anything to the puppy except Sit and her marker word. I wasn't paying attention but it's either Yes or Good, or maybe a treat. Otherwise, the the room is absolutely quiet. 
4. She has been working with the puppy on the Sit command for weeks, probably every day. I tried this with my puppy and he learned a quick sit at 8 weeks old in 30 minutes, but I kept working with him on it for a month to cement the behavior.
5. She does the exact same thing with her dog each time. She says sit, gives him a tiny piece of food as a marker, then releases him to do it again. Her motions are always the same, her behavior is always the same.
6. The puppy is not biting her
7. She is not only teaching her dog to sit, she is teaching No jumping, No biting, and Look at Me all with one command, Sit. The others are implied.

Your puppy keeps biting because he thinks you are playing with him, so you need to change what you are doing. I suggest you do only two things, since the other suggestions aren't working right now for you. Get a chew toy he can't destroy, like a red Kong or a black Kong bone if you can find one that will fit in his mouth. But for now, some type of rubber toy. When he bites, stick the toy in his mouth gently. Don't talk, just keep placing the toy in his mouth. If he takes it, say Good or Good boy in a quiet voice. Don't say anything else.

When you want to work on Sit, put the toy away, get some kibble in a treat pouch like Cindy does and use that to treat. I use kibble after watching a friend training a service dog. She uses it instead of a meal and trains until the kibble is gone, once a day. The other two meals,she feeds to dog in its crate in a bowl. Using other treats is too fattening for a dog and I save high value treats for something more difficult and special than Sit. 

Why work with only one toy or the Sit command? Because it does several things. It gets the dog to stop biting. He can't bite you with a toy in his mouth. He can't bite you when he is sitting calmly. It also teaches him how to learn and how to focus on you. And it builds your relationship

When you are working, go into a room or outside where you are alone with the dog. Never work with the dog when you are upset or frustrated. Never raise your voice. Always train in a quiet voice. That requires him to listen and to focus better on you, it also means later in an emergency, he will respond to a quiet voice rather than shouting.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> We've had controversy here about videos,but this worked very well to teach my puppy Sit. I did t use an Xpen, mine knocked it over, but their method of marking the Sit is excellent. Mine could .sit by 9 weeks. I used his lunch kibble to train
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X-7e0ilBZc
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWQLfq7tpVE


I will be trying this once I get a pen ^^

Right now, because I don't have a bitter apple spray, I decided just to put small drops of lemon that I squeezed on my hands and ankles, spreading it a bit, it's completely gross, but now when he bites me he gets the taste of the lemon and cannot stand it and backs off right away... Which is amazing.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm glad you found something that works to stop the biting. You don't need a pen to teach the sit command or work on training and focus. You can use the same steps she did without a pen. Your puppy will be a lot more manageable if you can get him to sit and learn to pay attention to you.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

So, sigh the lemon does keep him away but even when I wash the lemon off he pursues to bite. I think I still be consistent with it though. I took a couple of photos of him at my friends house, and my friend was holding him, and this is what he does when he bites us. He bares his teeth and goes down full force biting making growling and other noises.

I also believe he is afraid of the couch and I don't understand why, beds included.

I really wish I can get this to stop.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

Your photos look like he is playing. I'm sure he is growling but it is just a play growl at this age. You really need to get this under control. Even allowing this for long enough to get these photos is unacceptable. I would never allow a dog to behave this way. Why is he sitting on someone's lap acting like this? No laps! If it were me I would hold his mouth closed, look in his eyes, and firmly say "NO!". Put him in his crate and walk away. No anger. Just firm control.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Quit trying to hold him like that. They find it too restrictive a lot of the time. Calmly pet him, briefly. Slowly build on that as he trusts you more.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Just a thought. This is what I did when my pup was 16 weeks old. I've owned 4 GSD's and the one I have now - in puppy training put me thru tests I never experienced with the others.She was unruly and I couldn't settle her enough to start to teach basic commands. Lol, I went back into the simple old days and got one of those cheap lightweight brooms from the grocery store.

That broom was the "peacemaker".:grin2: It does two things, well - three really.... 

1. The broom has prickly ends all over - not pleasant to a dog's sensitive nose.

2. The broom has a 4 foot length - the range of the broom can reach quite a ways when in your hands. The dog/puppy - used to only your immediate arm range is quite surprised suddenly you have a 7-8 foot defensive position and can strike pretty quickly at that nose with the broom end. It's lightweight and easy for anyone to use quite quickly...

My initial problem was, my pup needed to know that I had boundaries and was to be respected. She was just testing hers to see how much she could control. 

The silly little broom gave me everything I needed to stop the cycle, get her to respect me, get her to pay attention to training & reward system. I layed it down beside me when I was going about my normal business in the house. (The broom head unscrews from the handle quite easily so you can have that next to you on the couch or bed if you need to for the first couple of days). Used the sharp low voice "NO" every time I had to use the broom. 

Took her about 4 days of "trying" the broom, after she pretty much gave up. Later, in her 5-6 month "rowdy" period.... all I needed to say was "do I need to get the broom"? and she shaped up like a marine recruit at Camp Pendleton.... anyway, know you got tons of good info here - just thought I'd share my humble $3.49 training tool...

Important! - the minute mine started to acknowledge my space - I had to immediately introduce her to training which had positive results and much rewarding and "good dogs". Very important to do both to show the path....


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

We've tried mouth closing, it does not work. He makes a whining noise and does not give up. With a firm NO! Looking in his eyes, the moment you let go of his mouth, it turns worse and more growling and, biting harder and faster while him dropping to his back and coming back.

We rarely have him on our laps. Out of all the pups in the litter he was the one who stayed away more so, and slightly hid. And the only one timid.

I only put him on my friends lap to take these pictures at his house to see if this is normal puppy biting I am dealing with or little bit of aggression.

He is afraid of sitting on couches and beds, so he doesn't let us put him on there anyways.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Just a thought. This is what I did when my pup was 16 weeks old. I've owned 4 GSD's and the one I have now - in puppy training put me thru tests I never experienced with the others.She was unruly and I couldn't settle her enough to start to teach basic commands. Lol, I went back into the simple old days and got one of those cheap lightweight brooms from the grocery store.
> 
> That broom was the "peacemaker".
> 
> ...


Haha how did you use it, I don't mind trying this as long as it stops the biting I'm so fed with it.

It's hard to clean up the house because he loved to chase the broom as if it's a flirt pole.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it will also be hard to clean the house with a dog that is aggressive or fearful of brooms. 

Step 1. Face that there is going to be no quick fix for this. It's going to take a few weeks to a few MONTHS to get the biting thing really under control.
Step 2. Stop aggressive measures to get a puppy to stop biting. Grabbing his muzzle can have effects that you don't want. You can make a dog fearful of having your hands around his face, which will make the rest of your life more difficult. Or you get the effect you are mostly seeing now - it ramps up the frustration and as soon as you let go he comes back even harder. He simply thinks you are playing.

The method that has always worked best for me is a simple one. And pretty much what he would do if you played too rough with him - walk away. Redirect to a toy. And that can mean a couple seconds of getting him engaged and playing with it. If he ignores the toy or immediately goes for your hands when you let go of it, step out of the room or over a baby gate. Stay gone for 10 seconds or so and come back in. If he immediately goes to grab for you when you come in, just step back out. Don't talk to him. Don't tell him no. Just step out. (Don't be gone too long or he'll forget all about the grabbing at you and go find something else to do!).

Your problem is that EVERYONE must employ the same methods every single time he does it. No exceptions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Haystack said:


> We've tried mouth closing, it does not work. He makes a whining noise and does not give up. With a firm NO! Looking in his eyes, the moment you let go of his mouth, it turns worse and more growling and, biting harder and faster while him dropping to his back and coming back.
> 
> We rarely have him on our laps. Out of all the pups in the litter he was the one who stayed away more so, and slightly hid. And the only one timid.
> 
> ...


You don't understand, YOU are inviting all this. You're encouraging it and rewarding it in some cases, and you're asking for it in others. Its not intentional, I know. I know its not what you want, but everything in this post is you picking fights, showing him he can make you stop what he doesn't like, showing him he can't be sure what the heck you're gonna try next, and on and on and on,,,,

Some people will compare what their previous puppy was like, he liked the hugs and cuddling and all that. You have to remember its how this puppy perceives it all.

You're going to have a hard time with him on leash later on too. You have to understand the difference between restraining him and teaching him to be obedient and accept things.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You ignored all my recent suggestions, which are what I did with my biting puppy and which worked to stop it, so I have nothing else to offer you except find a trainer who understands German Shepherd puppies. Then do exactly what they have shown you. I see from the pictures exactly why you are having problems. If you don't want to try what people are telling you, you are going to get the same results. At five months, when behaviors escalate, this dog will not listen to you and will be so far out of your control, you will have to isolate him or give him away. If you want to stop the biting you need to change all your interactions with him. You don't see that allowing something so you could take a picture is teaching your puppy biting is OK. Every time you let him bite you, even for a good reason like taking the pictures, you have reinforced biting. You are thinking like a person, not like a dog.

You aren't going to fix this from reading posts on a message board because for some reason, you aren't doing what you have read. Other than the broom post which was good intentioned but can create other problems, you have been given tools that are proven to work. What you don't seem to understand is that every time you do something with your puppy you are either teaching him or reinforcing him. Every single time. That means you can never let him put his teeth on you again. Never.

I have a lot of rescue experience. Many young dogs that end up in rescues do so because the owners mishandle them or don't know what they are doing. If you don't want to give your dog up, please get a good trainer.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I've been thinking about how we can help you better. Please don't post your location as you are underage, but if you are comfortable, and your mother agree, you might want to PM a moderator and see if they can help you find a local obedience club or IPO club, not to join but to find a mentor. Or do a Google search in your area. I would check dog training club's first, then rescues and lastly a shelter. Before you say no, here is what I'm thinking.

All these places have people, often volunteers, available to help out with dog challenges. I'm guessing you can't afford an expensive behaviors and I think right now, a class setting wouldn't help you. Find one that is close enough to you that you can get to their location. Then call and ask to talk to someone in charge. Tell them that you have your first German Shepherd puppy, you need someone to show you some basic ways to deal with the puppy and house manners and that you are worried if you can't get the dog trained soon, you will have to give him up. See if there is a trainer or volunteer who will let you shadow them when they work and/or will be able to show you how to interact with your dog. Contrary to what you might think, rescues and good shelters will do anything to keep dogs from being turned over to them. If they are good, they will have behavior specialists either on staff or as volunteers. 

I think from reading your posts that the only way you are going to learn how to work with your dog is for someone to observe in person what is wrong and to show you in person how to work with him. There are people in dog clubs who are experienced and who like to help other people. Since you are underage, never meet anyone or invite anyone to your home without a trusted adult present, but if the dog club or other organization has a central meeting area, your mom or other wise adult can go with you for safety reasons.

If anyone else easing this has a better suggestion please elaborate. This is the best I can think of right now.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> You ignored all my recent suggestions, which are what I did with my biting puppy and which worked to stop it, so I have nothing else to offer you except find a trainer who understands German Shepherd puppies. Then do exactly what they have shown you. I see from the pictures exactly why you are having problems. If you don't want to try what people are telling you, you are going to get the same results. At five months, when behaviors escalate, this dog will not listen to you and will be so far out of your control, you will have to isolate him or give him away. If you want to stop the biting you need to change all your interactions with him. You don't see that allowing something so you could take a picture is teaching your puppy biting is OK. Every time you let him bite you, even for a good reason like taking the pictures, you have reinforced biting. You are thinking like a person, not like a dog.
> 
> You aren't going to fix this from reading posts on a message board because for some reason, you aren't doing what you have read. Other than the broom post which was good intentioned but can create other problems, you have been given tools that are proven to work. What you don't seem to understand is that every time you do something with your puppy you are either teaching him or reinforcing him. Every single time. That means you can never let him put his teeth on you again. Never.
> 
> I have a lot of rescue experience. Many young dogs that end up in rescues do so because the owners mishandle them or don't know what they are doing. If you don't want to give your dog up, please get a good trainer.


Huh Luv? No, no, I'm not ignoring them, I literally wrote what you said down and I'm attempting them now, I'm giving it a couple of weeks of being constant of what you told me, and see how it turns out.

I was just replying to the other posts, I haven't closed his mouth in a very long time, I didn't not like that, it was actually a trainer who trains GSD's who told me that, I never like the method.. Actually two people told me that, both trainers. It just made my puppy more aggressive, honestly, and I felt uncomfortable with it.

I have actually been listening to you as if your words are spoken out of some sort of dog bible. I've been seeing so much more improvements, slow ones, but that's amazing news, right!

Also like you guys suggested; I've been keeping him on a leash now in the house 24/7 he's not off until bed time, and been stuffing his kongs with his kibble, while crating him by far more. Doing this, I noticed that the biting has toned down a lot more! I think he had to much freedom and toys, which was by biggest mistake. Also been trying to make sure no potty mistakes happen inside the house.

Also, the broom method someone suggested is an interesting one, but like I said, he's not like fearful of it, or any that, he plays with it like a flirt pole.

Honestly, my puppy is just a playful monster, and the biting is probably all of my fault because I'm a big newbie at owning a dog.

But please, trust me I'm listening, I'm doing exactly what you're saying now. And probably WILL go out and buy a pen because I do want to minimize the space he gets as well as that.

I just posted those pictures to see if him showing his teeth to see if that is that aggression or not.

Edit: Like to mention, I'm starting it off slow all over again, as in, petting him more, a lot more, so he's use to it, and not biting me, because before-hand, I noticed he was really not into the whole petting or any of that. And it seems like he's allowing me to pet him way more than he use to, and being very gentle, and giving me licks as I scratch.

Edit: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teach-your-puppy-and-respect-people <-- Also been reading the PDF file of a book Dr. Ian wrote as well so I can fix everything.

He's getting his 2nd shot tomorrow, as soon as he gets it, he's being in-rolled in obedience school, if obedience school shows no improvements I will be getting a personal trainer with him, my friend has a Shiloh Shepherd, and her puppy was a biter as well, Obedience School fixed that for them, but it was easier because they got her when she was 12 weeks, so she already had those shots.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It sounds like you are working on the problem. Thank you for updating. I don't usually get this attached to someone's else's problem but I know how much you want to get him under control and trained. He might be too young for traditional obedience. Usually they take them at 5-6 months or older. Since your friend got their dog to stop biting, can that friend help you now? I really think that seeing someone else successfully work a dog and physically copying that person's movements and methods will be the best way for you to learn. 

We all learn new things from different dogs. I'm am experienced dog owner, and have owned many German Shepherds, and I'm still discovering new and better ways to work with my dogs. If the obedience club has a dog club and it checks out, you might want to see if you can join it. Then you get to know people in real time you can call if you have a problem. 

Another big help to me was having a personal friend who trains service dogs. She is very busy, so she couldn't train with me, but once I was having a leash problem with a rescue, and she blocked out an hour to show me her leash technique. She never took the leash but worked her own dog and then made me copy her exact methods with my dog. It worked so well, I now use that method as part of my regular training technique.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi Haystack - I too think that going to structured training will be of huge benefit for you. I didn't elaborate on the broom method because that was really to only settle one problem and I had only read the first page of the posts here.

I made so many mistakes with this pup. If I had gone to a trainer, I know I could have avoided having to "start over" with a different method several times. That gets a little frustrating There are many, many ideas and different methods on the internet and it can get confusing.

Anyway, IMO - a trainer will be able to fill in some of the missing parts of the whole training concept for you as well as give you step by step instructions and goals to work on. Its a great decision on your part to get into the classes and support your pup so he can succeed and start on the path to becoming everything you want him to be. I will look forward to reading your progress posts when you start the puppy classes soon.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi Haystack - I too think that going to structured training will be of huge benefit for you. I didn't elaborate on the broom method because that was really to only settle one problem and I had only read the first page of the posts here.
> 
> I made so many mistakes with this pup. If I had gone to a trainer, I know I could have avoided having to "start over" with a different method several times. That gets a little frustrating There are many, many ideas and different methods on the internet and it can get confusing.
> 
> Anyway, IMO - a trainer will be able to fill in some of the missing parts of the whole training concept for you as well as give you step by step instructions and goals to work on. Its a great decision on your part to get into the classes and support your pup so he can succeed and start on the path to becoming everything you want him to be. I will look forward to reading your progress posts when you start the puppy classes soon.


Since I mentioned the broom, I should elaborate. It could work. I have one dog that is scared of brooms and another that attacks them if I allow it. The rest I've owned have all been oblivious. It sounds like it worked as a flirt pole, which could be useful to some dogs. It just seems to me that since the other methods she tried haven't worked too well, that she needs something that works on the behavior directly rather than another object. But, I'm not a trainer, either, just an owner.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> It sounds like you are working on the problem. Thank you for updating. I don't usually get this attached to someone's else's problem but I know how much you want to get him under control and trained. He might be too young for traditional obedience. Usually they take them at 5-6 months or older. Since your friend got their dog to stop biting, can that friend help you now? I really think that seeing someone else successfully work a dog and physically copying that person's movements and methods will be the best way for you to learn.
> 
> We all learn new things from different dogs. I'm am experienced dog owner, and have owned many German Shepherds, and I'm still discovering new and better ways to work with my dogs. If the obedience club has a dog club and it checks out, you might want to see if you can join it. Then you get to know people in real time you can call if you have a problem.
> 
> Another big help to me was having a personal friend who trains service dogs. She is very busy, so she couldn't train with me, but once I was having a leash problem with a rescue, and she blocked out an hour to show me her leash technique. She never took the leash but worked her own dog and then made me copy her exact methods with my dog. It worked so well, I now use that method as part of my regular training technique.


Doesn't matter if you're not a trainer, you're absolutely amazing and your advice has been helping 
I will be asking her, it's her mom who owns the Shiloh Shepherd, but she lives with her mom, that pup just turned 8 now. Her mom originally owns dachshunds only until her two older sons in their 20s decided to take a trip somewhere and pick up a Shiloh Shepherd puppy one day. Her mom has lots of experience with GSD's though now that she's owned one for a long while.

Also update guys: I took him to the vet the other day by myself, and just found out my puppy has WORMS! Which is absolutely upsetting. I knew something was wrong with him even though everyone in the household for weeks were telling me; "He's fine, he's fine!" so luckily I took him.

Little bit terrified because I kiss him all the time, hope I didn't contact any worms because like I said I keep developing headaches.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a structured class won't help solve this problem because the problem is Haystack and family members do not knowi how to "be: with a dog. 
The classroom situation will be out of context . Ideally training should happen where the results of that training will be used.

The unwanted behaviour happens in the home , the learning has to happen in the home . 
In all likelihood the biting won't happen in the class , as he is "amazing in public" (page one) . 

these are very basic expectations that happen during unstructured time --- just "being" in the house with people,
problems that are created by the members of the household.

Go to the classes anyway. Maybe 24 year old brother can foot the bill since he helped promote the wild biting .

this is not a monster dog. Can develop into one !


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

carmspack said:


> a structured class won't help solve this problem because the problem is Haystack and family members do not knowi how to "be: with a dog.
> The classroom situation will be out of context . Ideally training should happen where the results of that training will be used.
> 
> The unwanted behaviour happens in the home , the learning has to happen in the home .
> ...


Followed this thread for a while...

Obedience classes can stop biting. I have had multiple friends who brought their 12 week old puppies to obedience classes, and their dogs stopped the biting completely. It really depends. Reading one of Haystack's post she said there has been an improvement on the biting. There are some classes that even fix the biting problem which is included in their classes... But this is only for SOME.

If there is improvements, then I think they're okay.

With every family, not even just families, it is very hard with a young puppy, just because everyone has their own idea of training, and use different methods, that's why it is very hard to raise a pup. 

I think Haystack will be okay. Good luck to you Haystack, I recommend a personal trainer though if you haven't been seeing any improvements, because the moment he gets bigger, the harder it is to fix this issue. 

Also, make sure you get that worm problem taken care of, and make sure younger kids continuously wash their hands and do not put their hands in their mouth or anywhere, because they can contact worms.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Elf said:


> Followed this thread for a while...
> 
> Obedience classes can stop biting. I have had multiple friends who brought their 12 week old puppies to obedience classes, and their dogs stopped the biting completely. It really depends. Reading one of Haystack's post she said there has been an improvement on the biting. There are some classes that even fix the biting problem which is included in their classes... But this is only for SOME.
> 
> ...


Did you read all 112 posts? Like Carmspack said, this is a problem in the home. Obedience classes might make her dog more responsive to her but behavior problems at home are fixed by changing behaviors of the humans at home. To think or say that a class alone that teaches Sit Down and Heel will make this all go away gives her false hope and might encourage her to skip the other suggestions. This could potentially be a very serious situation.

We hope everything will be OK but it depends on how the dog's behavior is handled on a daily basis.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Did you read all 112 posts? Like Carmspack said, this is a problem in the home. Obedience classes might make her dog more responsive to her but behavior problems at home are fixed by changing behaviors of the humans at home. To think or say that a class alone that teaches Sit Down and Heel will make this all go away gives her false hope and might encourage her to skip the other suggestions. This could potentially be a very serious situation.
> 
> We hope everything will be OK but it depends on how the dog's behavior is handled on a daily basis.


Yes I read them, but I read one particular post where she said the dog was improving. _As to why I have the belief they'll be okay_. Obedience classes will help with biting, and or, biting will stop because of the classes. I then recommend like all of you, a personal trainer. Get some private lessons in there if you see zero improvement, do not rely on yourself, and do not trust yourself if there is no improvement.

My shepherd, the one seen in my profile picture is now 10 years old, as a puppy, he was a lot like OP's puppy, but he was by far worse than that. Nothing worked with him, because he would get intense during playtime, as seen in the videos. His behavior is clearly all play, not aggression. 

It can be easily fixed, if everyone in the household stays relaxed and no intense playtime with him. Once he goes through a series of doing what they want; training using his meals, potty training perfectly, etc. That's when he should be played with, but gentle play no play until he succeeds with what she wants him to do. Constant corrections will help. Instead of re-directing him on a toy, give him a bone some may not agree with me on the bone, but the thing with a bone is, if a puppy does not want to take a chew toy, then do a bone, it's enough to distract them, and he will calm down, this method is the same as a stuffed kong, really.

Another option she can do is get a pen, play with him only in the pen, that's when you can "yelp" and or say "ouch" or "eh" really loud to where it scares the pup. Step out of the pen, and cross your arms and walk away, come back and resume play after 10 - 30 seconds. The thing with the pen is, he will be forced to watch you leave and cannot chase after you. If the puppies space is limited, he will get bored because his play buddy is gone, so he will be forced to stop doing it. Right now, she allows her puppy to free-roam the house, as to why he chases after her and bites down hard wanting to play, and because she's squealing from his bites, and or giving him an amazing reaction, he resumes play coming back harder because he finds it fun, thinking it's play time. Do not forget, with limited space access you have by far more control of them, when allowing him to free roam, _he has control of you_... That's why there has been potty fails.

The puppy seems like he gets hyped on play, like my dog once was. As he grew, the biting completely stopped. At around, 5 or 6 months, maybe even less, he's 10 years old so I can't remember exactly when. I know multiple people as well, all of their dogs grew out of them, I even knew a very mouthy lab who would jump on whoever was holding her leash and bite down on their arm, and hands, kids included, this lab continued for over 3 months, and then stopped on her own, and because of Obedience classes. The household consisted of 2 young children, and a single mother, the children were always supervised with the puppy and rarely got to be around the puppy. The puppy even bit the mother uncontrollably. _I don't agree with that obviously._ :crying:

Don't forget through, not all obedience school classes just teache to heel, and sit and walk on a leash all fancy, some of them teach you how to control biting, and there is a trainer that will show you how to control your dog bites and continue to work with you if you simply just ask. I'm even looking at a website where I live and they teach you how to stop the biting in their obedience class, there is also a K-9 Agility club I believe around here where experts are all around, and they do obedience training and stop biting as well.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

I also forgot to mention, judging by this puppies behavior because I went through all of these posts and watched the video several times, the pup is completely in play mode, a true land shark he is.

This pup _isn't_ the type of puppy who will bite a stranger, he _isn't_ the type of puppy who will mouth and chase a stranger either. It seems that the one's he's bonded with, his family and friends are the one's that he bites because he is playing with them because he's bonded to them. A stranger he does not know I bet he stays away and is behaved. This is why I was calm and made that post.

But yes, everyone in that household must change their ways to respect the puppy and not hype him up, it truly is like hyping up a toddler, telling them "STOP! NO, STOP!" isn't gonna help because you were the one in the first place that allowed that, and instantly stopping will make them tantrum, like the puppy as to why he keeps biting when they walk away because he wants to keep going.

He needs his pen, his environment and you guys must be controlled, must be on the leash at all times in the house until potty training is controlled and until he isn't chasing and mouthing everyone.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Since I mentioned the broom, I should elaborate. It could work. I have one dog that is scared of brooms and another that attacks them if I allow it. The rest I've owned have all been oblivious. It sounds like it worked as a flirt pole, which could be useful to some dogs. It just seems to me that since the other methods she tried haven't worked too well, that she needs something that works on the behavior directly rather than another object. But, I'm not a trainer, either, just an owner.




No, lol - it doesn't work as a flirt pole. It works as a deterrent. When the broom bristle ends meet the dogs sensitive nose, they don't like it. You don't let them bite the broom, it's a quick light strike to the nose and then pull back. Normally, the first reaction is a sneeze or two or three. I have never had to do this more than 4 times with any of my dogs and the broom is no longer seen as a toy. Oddly enough, when I use the yard push broom - there is no association and they go crazy trying to play/attack it. I also have another broom for the house and mine is indifferent to it (it looks a lot different).

But, after reading more of the posts - I don't see that a simple fix will do. I think pro help is needed and she needs to put her pup off limits to most of the people in the house until she can get singular focus from her pup. IMO she needs to have a sit down with the household and seriously explain why she needs their cooperation to go about their business and let her gain some control without all the distractions.

I had a problem with a couple of people when training my pup and I simply avoided them when I had her out because they had an annoying way of wanting to go helter skelter with my her while she was in training to be calm around others.... It's crazy how some grown men turn into roudy 10 years olds when around a large breed puppy I told them too - I said you're messing us up so we can't be around you because you won't respect my request.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Elf your advice is good, but this is a complicated situation. She has 11 other people living in the house who aren't helping her and who are making poor choices in how they treat this puppy. I agrees, the dog needs to be confined and have much more structure. Also, the OP is having trouble taking our suggestions and making them work for the puppy. We all want the same thing for them, success.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> No, lol - it doesn't work as a flirt pole. It works as a deterrent. When the broom bristle ends meet the dogs sensitive nose, they don't like it. You don't let them bite the broom, it's a quick light strike to the nose and then pull back. Normally, the first reaction is a sneeze or two or three. I have never had to do this more than 4 times with any of my dogs and the broom is no longer seen as a toy. Oddly enough, when I use the yard push broom - there is no association and they go crazy trying to play/attack it. I also have another broom for the house and mine is indifferent to it (it looks a lot different).
> 
> But, after reading more of the posts - I don't see that a simple fix will do. I think pro help is needed and she needs to put her pup off limits to most of the people in the house until she can get singular focus from her pup. IMO she needs to have a sit down with the household and seriously explain why she needs their cooperation to go about their business and let her gain some control without all the distractions.
> 
> I had a problem with a couple of people when training my pup and I simply avoided them when I had her out because they had an annoying way of wanting to go helter skelter with my her while she was in training to be calm around others.... It's crazy how some grown men turn into roudy 10 years olds when around a large breed puppy I told them too - I said you're messing us up so we can't be around you because you won't respect my request.


I agree, one dog, one handler. I've seen with my own family since our first family puppy, how hard it is for everyone to treat a puppy exactly the same, and we have all wanted the same outcomes with our dogs. I've noticed people seem to like a playful dog, which to them means wild. If someone who isn't a close family member tries to wind up any of my dogs, they no longer have access, ever. If it means not inviting them over, then I don't invite them. But in this situation with a huge household, the owner doesn't have a lot of options.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Elf said:


> I also forgot to mention, judging by this puppies behavior because I went through all of these posts and watched the video several times, the pup is completely in play mode, a true land shark he is.


What do you think about this. I don't think the two short videos really show anything of note. I don't think anything in them, as short as they are, is a big deal other then its just another cause of confusion letting him do it to video, and then telling him its wrong. But that's not the end of the world.

When I look at the pictures and some of the things posted, I don't think of a lot of things as being in play mode. I think its more adding stress and confusion and the puppy protesting to escape the stress and confusion.

Hugging, kissing, NO BITING. It just keeps cycling. I get the idea that's one way people get into trouble with this stuff about land sharks. They have a hard time separating whats acceptable from whats not. At some point the land shark behavior takes on a different intent with too many of them, and you have the thread about biting the wife or biting my kid.

I know there's exceptions to it, the puppy that stops at 3 mos or whatever, but I always worry that acceptance turns into encouraging and to some degree, even rewarding.

And the ring worms from kissing, I'd be worried about the bite in the face. What do you think ?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> What do you think about this. I don't think the two short videos really show anything of note. I don't think anything in them, as short as they are, is a big deal other then its just another cause of confusion letting him do it to video, and then telling him its wrong. But that's not the end of the world.
> 
> When I look at the pictures and some of the things posted, I don't think of a lot of things as being in play mode. I think its more adding stress and confusion and the puppy protesting to escape the stress and confusion.
> 
> ...


That's the problem with advising from a message board. We all come from our own experiences and we aren't seeing the situation in real time. There are ranges of intensity with puppy biting. Our WGSL was biting the kids, I did one correction and it stopped, completely. Our current landshark would not stop using any of the methods I knew, so I started doing just what I suggest to the OP above and it eventually stopped but it took a while, and I don't have a lot of chaos or noise in my home. 

I'm still trying to figure out how a tiny puppy on the floor bit her brother in the neck. What was a biting puppy doing anywhere near his face? Someone had to put him there.

I also don't see how an obedience class can stop the problems mentioned here.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Elf said:
> 
> 
> > I also forgot to mention, judging by this puppies behavior because I went through all of these posts and watched the video several times, the pup is completely in play mode, a true land shark he is.
> ...


She didn't say what type of worms they were, I'm still waiting for an answer about that, that's a red flag for me with the breeder.

It's play behaviour, it is a 3 second video but I went over it multiple times, the reason he doesn't snap out of it, is because the pup is in play mode. When the pup is in play mode, they don't tend to stop. This is why he must be on a leash which others recommended, when he is a on leash, he is controlled and so is his environment, therefore he cannot chase and he is forced to relax. Put the puppy on a harness though to prevent neck injuries.

I know she said redirecting on toys doesn't work, but it does work. It's absolutely the best method, if the puppy doesnt accept the toy then she should be trying a stuffed Kong and or bone. It takes a while doing this. A while. Keeping him confined in his crate (differences between long confinement and short confinement) using a stuffed Kong each time to show that is the only thing he is allowed to chew on. Obedience school on top of that is a lot more helpful, and speaking to the trainer there, some classes do contain biting in there like I said. Also like LuvShepherds has said there are places you can go for advice and mimic what they do with their dog. If there is no improvement for the puppy get a personal trainer right away.

This is what OP needs to do; 
Give many chew toys and or bones while the puppy is on a leash, he will be forced to relax. He should only be allowed to bite on chew toys. Whenever he bites you guys, give a firm no. Make him sit on his bed for a time out. Continue going to obedience classes.

Second method:
Buy a pen. Whenever the puppy wants to "roam" the house he is placed on a leash, whenever he is not, he stays in his pen. Only play with him when he completed your goals (training like sit, paw, etc and potty training successful) then you guys can interact with him. The moment he bites you, yelp and or say "ouch!" or "eh!" step out of the pen, arms crossed, back turned. You can leave the room if you please, if you're gonna to leave the room everyone must leave with you for 10 seconds. The puppy will realize he's bored now, without you because he's stuck in a boring pen he cannot chase either so he forced to watch. If he does it again, repeat and do not give him interaction because he does not deserve it.

Like I said to you guys before, I knew a Labrador, a breed that has a soft mouth.. who mouthed as much as she could, as a big pup (by far bigger than 8 weeks), she jumped on kids biting them as hard as she could, over and over when all they did was hold her leash. That's very dangerous, the kids would drop the leash and run away crying. She was even much worse than what I just said, but the single mother got it controlled by the methods I just listed above. Her puppy was a very hyper puppy, OP's puppy is weak on the energy level scale and just wants to play... Her bad mouthy dog also grew out of it.

One thing I like to mention which is very important, I prefer you use the pen method, because when guests are over they can meet your puppy. Have your puppy interact with your guests because a dog like a GSD puppy should meet at least 100 different people before they're 3 months. Handled in many places (paw touching, tail touching. Etc), because if the puppy truly has aggression, he needs to be handled more because when he is bigger he will bite a vet, and or child easily if this is truly a big problem (which it is not. It's play behaviour)
Give the puppy carrots as treats or dry liver (really tiny pieces), or your puppies kibble. Make your guest make him sit and or hand feed him

Kick any guests out of your house right away if they rough play with him. One thing can easily change your puppies personality for the rest of their life.

This is play behaviour guys on a very high scale. It is not aggression, there is stress coming from the puppy because he must be handled more.

Before handling him, build a stronger bond with him, take baby steps. Keep scratching him in spots he loves and give rubs on his belly or any other spot he likes, continue doing this until he is more open with you guys, then move to the next step with gently handling him for short seconds a day, each day increase the time you held the puppy, and keep petting him as well. He will get use to it. Having him being handled is so he doesn't snap at you guys and or guests, kids and or future groomers and vets. Right now your bond with him seems a little weak.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

I know you love this puppy OP, but since your household runs to "eldest has more power compared to youngest" convince the eldest sibling to take control, or even your dad. Make him the primary trainer, it seems like your dad is the only one who hasn't interacted with this puppy with silence I didn't see one post about your dad but your mother. Tell him exactly what to do, get him to train the pup with the methods I listed.

Your dad should have the most authority and or your mom in the household.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here's my point Elf, and I don't mean this as any knock on you. Luv mentioned experiences, and I fully respect everyone's experiences and I always say that's why everyone on a forum is contributes with this stuff. I think the clearer we make things to them, black and white right from the beginning makes things easier. No teeth on me is clearer then that mouthing is ok, but ouch, that's not. No teeth period will work when they're just goofy, soft mouthed, easy going types. Yelp, ignore, time outs, all a waste of time with a really determined, stronger temperament. The dog that knocks it off at 5mos, I look at that as luck. The dog that you couldn't redirect or yelp out of it, bites for real at 5mos.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Haystack said:


> Doesn't matter if you're not a trainer, you're absolutely amazing and your advice has been helping
> I will be asking her, it's her mom who owns the Shiloh Shepherd, but she lives with her mom, that pup just turned 8 now. Her mom originally owns dachshunds only until her two older sons in their 20s decided to take a trip somewhere and pick up a Shiloh Shepherd puppy one day. Her mom has lots of experience with GSD's though now that she's owned one for a long while.


a Shiloh can be very different than a GSD. The idea behind the breed is to create a mellow couch potato dog. The only thing GSD about them is the appearance of an over-sized GSD. Personality is intended to be a complete 180.
Of course, many are poorly bred and are actually skittish nervebags.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> I agree, one dog, one handler. I've seen with my own family since our first family puppy, how hard it is for everyone to treat a puppy exactly the same, and we have all wanted the same outcomes with our dogs. I've noticed people seem to like a playful dog, which to them means wild. If someone who isn't a close family member tries to wind up any of my dogs, they no longer have access, ever. If it means not inviting them over, then I don't invite them. But in this situation with a huge household, the owner doesn't have a lot of options.


after my brother was sent outside, in the dark and the rain, to play with the dog that he got ramped up in the house, people finally realized that I mean it when I say "You get the dog worked up, you're going to calm him down"


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Elf, I know you mean well but this is why I asked if you read the earlier posts. There are some very experienced handlers here with working line dogs in IPO, at least one breeder, and people like me with pets who we train as best we can. I have owned a lot of GSDs from puppyhood or as fosters/rescues. I've had to untrain and retrain dogs. As experienced as I am, I still created a few unintentional problems with my current puppy that I've had to really work hard on to fix. While some of your suggests are good, they have been given to the OP previously in this discussion and haven't worked out so well for them. An Xpen with everyone in the household on board is a good idea, but it's not going to happen. A parent taking over might be a good idea, but that isn't going to happen. The teenaged owner needs to learn to manage this puppy.

So then several of us tried to simplify and give suggestions that might be followed and might work. Right now the OP is overwhelmed with too many inputs and needs one plan to follow and a few simple goals to get this puppy in line. I still think the best plan is to get a private trainer or an experienced mentor to walk the owner through simple steps in how to handle the puppy in real time. Posts from this message board are not working. I don't want to hear that this puppy is 5 months old and out of control and has bitten someone for real, not just mouthing, or has been given up or euthanized. I'm not trying to scare the OP, but it happens too often. After you have participated on this board for a few years, you will see the pattern and how often it comes up, if not at 5 months, then at 18 months or 2-3 years. This is not a simple problem, due to the complexity of the family situation. A class is not going to fix the household. Neither is a pen.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> after my brother was sent outside, in the dark and the rain, to play with the dog that he got ramped up in the house, people finally realized that I mean it when I say "You get the dog worked up, you're going to calm him down"


Great answer. I'll have to remember that when someone gets my dogs' training toys out and amps them up and then wants to sit down and watch a game on TV while I'm left with a hyper dog or two.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know there's exceptions to it, the puppy that stops at 3 mos or whatever, but I always worry that acceptance turns into encouraging and to some degree, even rewarding.

this is so true . Everyone has the "they're landsharks " mantra , it's normal -- and then you have the above results.
Nah, this gets fixed real fast . Mutual respect .
You are not the dog's toy. NO teeth. Sorry .
Even dogs raised for LE service need to differentiate , how and what to target.
Done properly there is no inhibition on appropriate bites .
I would say less chance of redirected emotional , accidental handler bites. 
Clear line of understanding .


this clear (strom) I think the clearer we make things to them, black and white right from the beginning makes things easier. No teeth on me is clearer then that mouthing is ok, but ouch, that's not. No teeth period will work when they're just goofy, soft mouthed, easy going types. Yelp, ignore, time outs, all a waste of time with a really determined, stronger temperament. 

I just don't agree with the substitutions stuffing the dog's gob with toys or kongs. Or handler playing victim.

The problem in this thread isn't the dog . It is the dynamics of the family. I don't see how some of the declares changes already when the discussion is in real time - a matter of days or hours .

The problem is that the household has no leader . 
The mom wants a protection dog.
Money is handed over , sister goes and puts a deposit on one .
No research into litters available . No testing for appropriateness for the job of "protection"
Breeder selected because a girlfriend of sister knows or has experience with breeder.
Dog acts up .
We know there are 12 people in the household .
The posts indicate a brother is responsible for opening up the pup bite pandora's box.
The posts have mentioned a 12 year old and a 15 year old.
Comments made -- all of a sudden there is a revelation of a 24 year old brother who has
deigned to come out of hiding to instigate rough play and a change in the dog's behaviour.
I should have known about that 24 year old judging by the scolding that I got . 
Elf - he isn't going to take responsabilty. He acted like a 12 year old . I wouldn't want to 
have him in charge.
Mom who wanted the dog isn't part of the remedy - she is too busy on the phone making deals.
Sister is spontaneous and carts dog around to boyfriend's house and who knows what the dog is
allowed to do there.
Two sisters are in conflict. One puts dog in crate , other sneaks dog out . One allows dog to void
on patio, other sister (OP) trying to have some proper potty schedule and area .
Father ? haven't heard or seen anything about him, so don't count on him .

So after obedience class , with no context , this is what the dog returns to . 

the dog is simple . I could do a turn around in one day.
the family dynamics are complex ---

solution? Good , credentialed behaviourist trainer , who reads the family the riot act , sends a memo to all family members - requires all family members to be present - recommended solutions are adhered to -- then to basic obedience class with one chosen responsible handler .
period


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

(spack) I just don't agree with the substitutions stuffing the dog's gob with toys or kongs. Or handler playing victim.

I don't like the idea of getting into a cycle of puppy bites, you wiggle the toy, but I have a hard time explaining the difference between directing to something, vs redirecting. You mentioned targeting, maybe that would make more sense then what I usually try to say about it. 

Its difficult too, online to explain trust and respect and the perception of things between different puppies. It can't be that difficult to accomplish though, I'm no genius.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Here's my point Elf, and I don't mean this as any knock on you. Luv mentioned experiences, and I fully respect everyone's experiences and I always say that's why everyone on a forum is contributes with this stuff. I think the clearer we make things to them, black and white right from the beginning makes things easier. No teeth on me is clearer then that mouthing is ok, but ouch, that's not. No teeth period will work when they're just goofy, soft mouthed, easy going types. Yelp, ignore, time outs, all a waste of time with a really determined, stronger temperament. The dog that knocks it off at 5mos, I look at that as luck. The dog that you couldn't redirect or yelp out of it, bites for real at 5mos.


I know what you are all are saying, I don't disagree with any of you. I'm going through the posts again and it does seem like even corrections aren't working with his biting issue. This Labrador I was talking about, was the biggest and mouthiest puppy I've ever seen in my entire life and bit way to hard too, yet did the same thing, along with knocking over children, jumping on them to bite the leash and them. Time outs and firm no's did work though, a lot of dogs I knew grew out of it.

What I'm trying to say is though, this isn't aggression at all, that's what I'm mainly trying to say.

And like you all said, *they should get a personal trainer as well.*

LuvSheperds, I know you've been on these forums for a while, I've been been on these forums for a while too but never made an account, it is truly sad to see many dogs being put down.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> (spack) I just don't agree with the substitutions stuffing the dog's gob with toys or kongs. Or handler playing victim.
> 
> I don't like the idea of getting into a cycle of puppy bites, you wiggle the toy, but I have a hard time explaining the difference between directing to something, vs redirecting. You mentioned targeting, maybe that would make more sense then what I usually try to say about it.
> 
> Its difficult too, online to explain trust and respect and the perception of things between different puppies. It can't be that difficult to accomplish though, I'm no genius.


I understand you don't agree with the toy, but with the pen the dog is forced to understand that the biting must stop, because then he's stuck in a pen by himself without anyone, and or toys. He will catch on because he's forced to catch on. Like I said, as well, long term confinement and short term are big keys as well, stuff Kong's teach the puppy that is the only thing he is allowed to chew on.

It really seems like to me, the older brother altered the puppy's personality.

But since the biting sounds way to much of a big problem, then a personal trainer must come in and must work with them all, and it must be corrections only, as in, no teeth allowed on skin ever.

There is something really bothering me about this post though, it isn't just the 12 member household that is the problem, the puppy can also be a problem as well, all puppies have different personalities, some are more harder to deal with then others, this is why a breeder should NOT allow somebody to choose their _own_ pup. This is a big issue because problems like this are left and owners cannot handle it. The fact that the puppy isn't working well with anything that we had suggested screams to me; get a personal trainer, unless the OP is just doing everything completely wrong.

Either way, there are loads of more problems I can list that isn't coming from just a 12 member household.

Get a personal trainer.

Edit: OP if you see my posts, please post a picture of the puppy's pedigree as well for me and the breeder's name.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I know there's exceptions to it, the puppy that stops at 3 mos or whatever, but I always worry that acceptance turns into encouraging and to some degree, even rewarding.
> 
> this is so true . Everyone has the "they're landsharks " mantra , it's normal -- and then you have the above results.
> Nah, this gets fixed real fast . Mutual respect .
> ...


Carm, there are more issues then just the household. They refuse to change. I don't understand the need of getting a puppy then if nobody wants to compromise.

You don't find it weird at all though that the breeder sold them a pup that had worms? ... She didn't even let them play with the puppies from the litter during a visit, only another family was allowed to visit the puppies. There are more problems than a household that you're forgetting.. 

You're right though about the behaviorist trainer that needs to come in.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Elf said:


> Carm, there are more issues then just the household. They refuse to change. I don't understand the need of getting a puppy then if nobody wants to compromise.
> 
> You don't find it weird at all though that the breeder sold them a pup that had worms? ... She didn't even let them play with the puppies from the litter during a visit, only another family was allowed to visit the puppies. There are more problems than a household that you're forgetting..
> 
> You're right though about the behaviorist trainer that needs to come in.


Often puppies have worms but the breeder can treat it or they can let the new owner treat it. If I was getting a puppy from a breeder and the dog had worms, I would rather treat it myself to be sure the dog wasn't overdosed or given a non therapeutic level of a dewormer and develops a resistance, like Panacur for Giardia when a stronger med or combination is needed. This doesn't sound like an experienced breeder, but that is a totally different issue. A good vet always tests any new household addition for worms.

I accidentally gave bad advice above, because I didn't know what Redirect actually meant. Even people with experience can make mistakes.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agreed worms aren't a big issue --- assuming that the dog has roundworms .

these require multiple dosings as the adults shed eggs which hatch in about 10 days .

there are several options for vermifuge including natural food sourced ingredients which include
protein digesting enzymes and papain , bromelain, probiotics , or a
homeopathic tincture.



at some point the breeder , should have taken stool samples to the vet as part of the pre-sale
health exam .

this is not a first time breeder -- 
"So a friend of ours week beforehand who's GSD passed away recommended us to the breeder she got her amazing dog from, she was also going to get a puppy for herself from the breeder, so we then all of us booked an appointment to go see the breeder, we were impressed by her dogs and her main show dog gorgeous sire, then she also showed us the parents to her current litters. The breeder then told us she has no problem selling the pups so she doesn't care if we put a deposit on the last one or not, my sister fell in-love with the puppies, and decided to put the deposit down on the last male.. We weren't allowed to select our puppy keep in mind (because people had already reserved their pup EVEN before they were born),"

I would say a "breeder" who breeds titles together - does nothing with their dogs -- is concerned with a sale , and not concerned who the dog goes home to . Doesn't care.
Later in the thread the OP says they contacted the breeder about the pup's behaviour only to be told that has never happened before . And she doesn't know what to do about it. 
Really? 

" They refuse to change. I don't understand the need of getting a puppy then if nobody wants to compromise."

I know -- can't change if you keep denying . In the beginning flood of helpful responses every one said that the pup
said was over extended , over stimulated which the OP fought .

So confusing . Even to the crate training . Sister puts dog in crate (quote my sister ; "put him in the crate and close the door) and (she stuck him in there and closed the door and let him cry all night ) 

the OP undoes any good that have come from this pup getting accustomed to crating (quote at times I sneaked in and opened the crate door and comforted him, and left it open while I sat infront, petting him, till he calms down and falls asleep.) 
I know the OP is herself overwhelmed -- lacking sleep staying up to 4:00 helping people -- then up with the dog to put him outside for an hour , standing there --- then (quote "I end up falling asleep, with him curled up in front of me since I'm so tired to put him back in his crate, and then hours later when I wake up I'll find his business on the floor in the same spot, in the corner of one of the rooms.)

It takes two seconds to lift the dog , put in crate , lock door . All the good work to this point undone.

The pup is not playing , the pup is frustrated , confused , acting out of non-thinking stress .

We were told , there were no chasing games -- but there are (quote "let him run around and chase me and I bring his toys to play with him to tire him out)

Page one is a doozy . Show this to the private trainer - save time , save money , cut to the chase.

one set of rules that everyone follows .


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This is a baby 10 week old pup? 

Doesn't need to be real complicated. But I can see it is, for the OP, and I'm guessing this pup isn't going to have a "forever" home here.

I don't usually say this, but why not return the pup to the breeder or find him a suitable home?

I know a family of 12 who had to give up a dog that simply wasn't suited for their situation with so many kids and activities. The dog did perfectly fine until the family adopted five kids at once, and it was just too much. Sometimes, some dogs, do better in a different situation. Probably the case here. I can't even imagine trying to juggle this many people and all of the different things they are doing with the puppy while dealing with a pup who may or may not be a bit more difficult. 

It's better to rehome now than wait until the pup bites someone for real at around 10 months old and then you've got euthanasia on the table, too.


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## Haystack (May 29, 2016)

Just wanted to say everything that Elf recommended worked amazingly well !!! Nothing worked before until I did exactly what Elf said, and now he no longer bites, and IF he is biting, it isn't even biting it's very gentle with his mouth with EVERYONE and the moment I said "NO BITE" he stops.

I also took the advice Elf said in a msg, about the "leash pop" it fixed his walking on the leash issue amazingly andddd stopped the biting as well.

It's good not to be chased and bitten anymore!

Thank you so much


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