# DM testing response from breeder



## Melissaw1010 (May 13, 2018)

I lost my 13 -year-old male to DM so of course testing is something that is crucial for me when selecting a breeder. I had one answer me “After doing research I found that the tests are not accurate enough for me to rely on . I have been breeding for 18 years and never had it come up in my lineage” can this be true and DM testing not reliable ?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

no test is 100% perfect....

I have never had it in my litters either....but I test because it is a foundation to build on, and as it is fairly recent, every dog tested and then progeny tested builds an informational base for the future....

all my dogs I use for breeding have tested clear so far....I know there were 2 carriers whose littermates are clear

It is somethign people seem to be afraid of...

Like one person interested in a breeding to my male commented when I said his sire was over 15 when he passed naturally, his dam over 14........"why would anyone want them to live that long? what do you do with them???" I was appalled.


Lee


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

As far as I know the DNA tests are reliable...showing...whether or not the dog actually has the disease OR whether or not the gene is carried which with breeding would create pups with DM... a disease that will only "show" later in life.....I too had a dog with DM....it still hurts....so it would be VERY important to me also....I'm nobodies expert in DNA... but I know WAY to much about DM.....since many breeders do test for DM...if I was in your shoes....I'd find one of those to make my pup/young dog choice from


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

DM testing for german shepherds is like Ichthyosis testing in Golden retrievers, it will tell you who is the carrier or effected so you can breed it out of the line. I had a breeder tell me the exact same thing melissa i did not go with her because i also lost a GSD to DM.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with Lee and Shanes' Dad. I don't know if the test is 100% reliable or not, but I personally will not get a puppy from a breeder that doesn't test for DM. My dog Halo is in the late stages of DM right now, and it's been heartbreaking to watch a former athlete (I raced her in flyball for 5 years before retiring her a year ago) become an invalid. Unfortunately, the test was very new around the time she was born and not widely used or trusted. Her sire was later tested as a carrier, so I assume her dam must have been a carrier too, in order for some of the litter to inherit two copies of the abnormal gene like Halo did. 

Halo had good longevity on both sides of her pedigree, with her parents and grand-sire all living to the 12-14 year old range, but sadly, she will not make it to 10. She was just a couple of months past her 8th birthday when we first noticed something was wrong and at 9-1/2 she has maybe weeks left at best.  The only reason she's still here is that we've spent a small fortune over the past year to do swim therapy at a rehab clinic with her twice a week, which she not only loves, but has also slowed down muscle atrophy. She hasn't been able to walk unassisted for months, but she can swim. Just this past week she's begun to not use her rear legs as strongly in the pool as she has been, though, and once she can no longer have her swims to enjoy it will be time to let her go.

Our new puppy is clear by parentage - both the sire and dam are DM clear, so there should be no possibility of Cava ever developing the disease.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> no test is 100% perfect....
> 
> I have never had it in my litters either....but I test because it is a foundation to build on, and as it is fairly recent, every dog tested and then progeny tested builds an informational base for the future....
> 
> ...


 I would be too!


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## Melissaw1010 (May 13, 2018)

Thank you everyone. I don’t want to ever go through that again, so sad to see. Especially since even at 13 he was there mentally and had a will to live but his body was deteriorating. This may be a silly question Is proof just a piece of paper they show me or is there a database that i can verify the testing with (like you can with hips etc) I’m the type of person that likes to verify paperwork. But i guess if the paperwork has the facility that did the testing i can always call them direct and verify the info.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Melissaw1010 said:


> Thank you everyone. I don’t want to ever go through that again, so sad to see. Especially since even at 13 he was there mentally and had a will to live but his body was deteriorating. This may be a silly question Is proof just a piece of paper they show me or is there a database that i can verify the testing with (like you can with hips etc) I’m the type of person that likes to verify paperwork. But i guess if the paperwork has the facility that did the testing i can always call them direct and verify the info.


If they did it through OFA, and the dog was Normal/Normal, it will be searchable on OFA. 

If they did it through OFA and checked the box to release ALL results, and the dog tested N/A or A/A, it will be searchable on OFA.

If they did it through OFA and did not check that box, N/A or A/A will not show on the database. A certificate is still mailed to the owner.

If they used another lab, there should be a certificate / lab result sheet.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Melissaw1010 said:


> I lost my 13 -year-old male to DM so of course testing is something that is crucial for me when selecting a breeder. I had one answer me “After doing research I found that the tests are not accurate enough for me to rely on . I have been breeding for 18 years and never had it come up in my lineage” can this be true and DM testing not reliable ?


As others have said, no test is 100%. That said, how would a breeder know that it has never come up without testing? Up until fairly recently the early symptoms of DM were chalked up to old age and arthritis. There is also the fact that its late onset, which means there is a real chance something else will take them down first. 
The current DM testing is as accurate as any other medical test, and to me that response from a breeder is irresponsible and uncaring. For all they know all their breeding stock are carriers and they are adding to the issue. As cheap as the test is, any breeder who isn't doing it is selfish. 
I lost a dog to DM, so unless a breeder is testing it's a no from me. Period. Nothing would induce me to knowingly bring that into my life again.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I have heard of people getting different results from different labs, and I have also heard of people testing puppies from two clear parents and getting test results stating the dog was a carrier. I can see why some people don’t think it is as accurate as it could be. DM is a horrible thing, and you need to do what you feel most comfortable with when you buy a puppy. If DM testing is very, very important to you, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with walking away from a breeder who doesn’t do the test. We all make decisions to our own comfort level regarding many different things when choosing a breeder. The right choices for you may not be the same ones I’d make, and that’s ok.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> Like one person interested in a breeding to my male commented when I said his sire was over 15 when he passed naturally, his dam over 14........"why would anyone want them to live that long? what do you do with them???" I was appalled.
> 
> 
> Lee



That is AWFUL, Lee.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

yea - IPO person - breeds a ton - imports titled dogs, moves most of them on after a few years.....doesn't like wasting kennel space....

yea - Awful!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I wouldn’t condemn a breeder for not testing. There are confirmed cases of supposed “ DM clear by parentage” dogs that come back as carriers, and dogs tested as carriers in europe who come back clear through OFA, or dogs testing both carrier and clear through the US labs. The test is by no means “perfect” yet, so if the breeder chooses not to, it shouldn’t be something to crucify them over.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This article is several years old, but still contains useful information. It’s possible a breeder has DM in their lines but thinks it’s arthritis. Even with testing, a dog can get it, but why not do all testing possible? I would not buy a dog without testing. 

https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/bl...eptions-about-canine-degenerative-myelopathy/


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> I wouldn’t condemn a breeder for not testing. There are confirmed cases of supposed “ DM clear by parentage” dogs that come back as carriers, and dogs tested as carriers in europe who come back clear through OFA, or dogs testing both carrier and clear through the US labs. The test is by no means “perfect” yet, so if the breeder chooses not to, it shouldn’t be something to crucify them over.


No medical test is 100%, that does not mean we should stop using them. Humans still have to collect and mark specimens, and in human testing for most things 10% is the acceptable failure rate. DM testing comes in well under that.
Not to mention that for $60, it's so cheap that it's almost ignorant not to do it. The breeders who refuse do so because it isn't going to impact them until well after breeding and showing careers are over. Breeders doing so on a large scale don't particularly want dogs hanging around until they are 13 or 14 or 15, because why would they?
A pet owner on the other hand gets to lose a beloved family member 3-5 years earlier then they hoped. There are things we can stop and things we can't. We can stop this.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Like one person interested in a breeding to my male commented when I said his sire was over 15 when he passed naturally, his dam over 14........"why would anyone want them to live that long? what do you do with them???" I was appalled.
> 
> 
> Lee


Interesting...I often wonder what a 15 year old GSD is like...Quality of life wise. It's like with people...what's the point of living to 100 if you are not physically or mentally with it? 

OP, I once asked a breeder (of a different breed) about OFA hips/elbows. Her response was I have been breeding for 25 years and I don't do OFA. I don't have that problem in my lines. She is a huge person in the breed, lots of show winners. Her dogs are in MANY kennels all over the country. She got taken off my list immediately. No test is 100%...but not testing is 100% sure you won't know.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> No medical test is 100%, that does not mean we should stop using them. Humans still have to collect and mark specimens, and in human testing for most things 10% is the acceptable failure rate. DM testing comes in well under that.
> Not to mention that for $60, it's so cheap that it's almost ignorant not to do it. The breeders who refuse do so because it isn't going to impact them until well after breeding and showing careers are over. Breeders doing so on a large scale don't particularly want dogs hanging around until they are 13 or 14 or 15, because why would they?
> A pet owner on the other hand gets to lose a beloved family member 3-5 years earlier then they hoped. There are things we can stop and things we can't. We can stop this.


I don’t know that I agree with everything you are saying. I know plenty of breeders who would love to have their dogs until they were 15. I personally would do the test if I were breeding. It’s just more info to have. But with all the discrepancies I have heard of with the test, I don’t know that I could blame someone for using an untested male, or breeding their bitch that checks all the other boxes. It’s a sad fact that you cannot definitively diagnose DM until necropsy. I think if they could come up with a test that said, “yes, this is definitely DM” or even “your dog will have DM” instead of a test that classifies “at risk”, that would be great. I have complicated feelings about this particular test, and I just wish I thought it was more accurate.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

my 14 year old had great quality of life....could get in the truck....liked to go to the farm and out and about....enjoyed her food and friends....until the day she threw a blood clot and lost control of one hind leg - only 1...but was confused and upset....we knew it could happen....she was not going to handle it well and I knew it could happen again...so let her go.... :'( :'( :'(


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> my 14 year old had great quality of life....could get in the truck....liked to go to the farm and out and about....enjoyed her food and friends....until the day she threw a blood clot and lost control of one hind leg - only 1...but was confused and upset....we knew it could happen....she was not going to handle it well and I knew it could happen again...so let her go.... :'( :'( :'(


Remi's grandmother was 13 when we picked him up 4 years ago. She was great...but you could tell she was old. She had lots of patience for the litter (Remi and his siblings).


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t know that I agree with everything you are saying. I know plenty of breeders who would love to have their dogs until they were 15. I personally would do the test if I were breeding. It’s just more info to have. But with all the discrepancies I have heard of with the test, I don’t know that I could blame someone for using an untested male, or breeding their bitch that checks all the other boxes. It’s a sad fact that you cannot definitively diagnose DM until necropsy. I think if they could come up with a test that said, “yes, this is definitely DM” or even “your dog will have DM” instead of a test that classifies “at risk”, that would be great. I have complicated feelings about this particular test, and I just wish I thought it was more accurate.


I also know breeders who want to keep their dogs around, and they are testing. I was referring mostly to the big breeders, large scale, lot's of dogs. And you are correct that active DM can only be diagnosed with a necropsy, but it is a fact that is a dog tested +/+ (at risk) it will develop symptoms IF it lives long enough which is why they use the term at risk. Being that it's late onset other things could get the dog first. It's also a fact that there have been very few inaccurate tests, but for example, the ONE dog that tested clear and was later found to have DM (necropsy) was something like 15 years ago and people keep bringing it up. This gives the impression that it happens all the time. It's also a fact that if breeders would test we could get rid of this disease, not immediately but over generations.

I also agree that it's a personal decision to buy from a specific breeder. And I can almost guarantee that someone who lost a pet to DM will go with a breeder who tests. 
If you haven't I sincerely hope you never do, if you have I am so sorry.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I also know breeders who want to keep their dogs around, and they are testing. I was referring mostly to the big breeders, large scale, lot's of dogs. And you are correct that active DM can only be diagnosed with a necropsy, but it is a fact that is a dog tested +/+ (at risk) it will develop symptoms IF it lives long enough which is why they use the term at risk. Being that it's late onset other things could get the dog first. It's also a fact that there have been very few inaccurate tests, but for example, the ONE dog that tested clear and was later found to have DM (necropsy) was something like 15 years ago and people keep bringing it up. This gives the impression that it happens all the time. It's also a fact that if breeders would test we could get rid of this disease, not immediately but over generations.
> 
> I also agree that it's a personal decision to buy from a specific breeder. And I can almost guarantee that someone who lost a pet to DM will go with a breeder who tests.
> If you haven't I sincerely hope you never do, if you have I am so sorry.


I come from a place of worrying endlessly about DM, buying from a breeder who only breeds DM clear dogs, and ending up with a plethora of other serious health and temperament issues that will last the entire life of my dog. So I am of the camp “there are worse things than DM”, though I sincerely hope I never have a dog that has it. And I still think it should be tested for. I am just not willing to vilify a breeder that does not test for it, or base breeding choices solely on the test. I know people who have dogs with DM, and yes, it is heartbreaking. And yes, I agree it should be bred out. I just don’t know that we are at a point where that can happen just yet. They do not know if there are other genes responsible for DM than the one that is tested for, for one. And hearing of inaccuracies in the test doesn’t help me think it should be a major focus of a breeding program, for another. Basically, if I thought the test was more accurate, I would strongly support only breeders who test and breed according to those test results. But at best, I believe the test gives us information at this point. I don’t in any way feel that information should be discarded. And I don’t in any way fault others for making DM negative parents a priority when they go to buy a puppy. I made it one of my top priorities with my first GSD, and cared markedly less when when I bought my second. For my next one, who knows. I hope there will have been advances made with testing by the time I’m ready to buy my next one.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How do those of you who lost a dog to DM know for sure that is what it was? I’m not disagreeing, I’m curious if everyone paid for a necropsy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> And I can almost guarantee that someone who lost a pet to DM will go with a breeder who tests. If you haven't I sincerely hope you never do, if you have I am so sorry.


Yep, that is our situation. Nothing is ever 100%, but I will do everything I can to make sure that we never have to do through this particular heartbreak again. There are other heartbreaks that may occur, such as bloat (which we have also gone through - fortunately with a successful outcome), and hemangiosarcoma, which has claimed several dogs belonging to friends of ours. There aren't currently genetic tests to determine susceptibility to either of those, but there is one for DM and I'm going to stack the odds in my favor.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yep, that is our situation. Nothing is ever 100%, but I will do everything I can to make sure that we never have to do through this particular heartbreak again. There are other heartbreaks that may occur, such as bloat (which we have also gone through - fortunately with a successful outcome), and hemangiosarcoma, which has claimed several dogs belonging to friends of ours. There aren't currently genetic tests to determine susceptibility to either of those, but there is one for DM and I'm going to stack the odds in my favor.


I completely respect and support your decision to choose the breeding you did this go round. Just wanted to say that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do those of you who lost a dog to DM know for sure that is what it was? I’m not disagreeing, I’m curious if everyone paid for a necropsy.


When Halo starting showing signs that something was wrong back in January 2017, everyone thought it was an injury of some sort. Several different vets were not convinced it was DM. We knew that was a possibility but were hoping for the best. Five months in, it was still very asymmetrical, and not progressing as would be expected for DM. We did x-rays of her spine, her hips, her left knee and hock, the side where we were seeing the symptoms. She had acupuncture and laser treatments and saw a chiropractor. She had an MRI, and a nerve conduction study. She was examined by two different ortho specialists, a rehab specialist, and her MRI was reviewed by two different neurologists who also did an extensive examination. By then, we had done the DM test and it came back A/A - two copies of the abnormal gene - "at risk" of developing DM at some point in her life. None of the tests or exams could find a cause of her symptoms and the general consensus was that if she progressed, it was DM. If she didn't, we needed to keep looking. Within a few weeks, she began to progress. 

When a dog has all the symptoms of DM, everything else that could possibly cause those symptoms has been ruled out, and the dog is A/A, DM is the presumptive diagnosis. When Halo goes, we will not have a necropsy done. It's pretty clear that she does have DM and there is nothing to gain by spending even more money than we already have to confirm that definitively. We've already spent between $10,000 and $15,000 on vet and rehab bills since February 2017 and are doing everything we can to keep her happy, exercised, and comfortable, and that is the most important thing to us.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> yea - IPO person - breeds a ton - imports titled dogs, moves most of them on after a few years.....doesn't like wasting kennel space....
> 
> yea - Awful!


I am not surprised . Not surprised at all . have heard this sentiment myself as many of my dogs live to 14 plus .
This means non productive years as far as being at work or able to breed. 
I am trying to remember who this was but there was a kennel , maybe more than one with this practice , that would routinely put down dogs after a certain age - no matter what the health status. 
I also heard this disdain for ancient dogs who take up space from show people --- even in an arit8cle in the old GSD Quarterly where it was revealed that longevity was not a priority because there are fashions and trends to certain dogs of the day. This goes back to around 1985


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do those of you who lost a dog to DM know for sure that is what it was? I’m not disagreeing, I’m curious if everyone paid for a necropsy.


Sabi had active DM, but also cancer so who can say. She was very nearly losing use of her back legs entirely, I opted to end it for both of us and euthanized. Very, very few dogs die from DM. As my vet said, it comes down to what the owners can take, not the dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do those of you who lost a dog to DM know for sure that is what it was? I’m not disagreeing, I’m curious if everyone paid for a necropsy.



there is an old saying - "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......" 

DEFINITIVE diagnosis is only by post....but in many cases, it is pretty obvious.....I got a titled KKL1 female who had my first litter....at about 11 she started to show neurological signs....progessive and in line with DM....why post her after she died? She was bred when I got her and I found out one of that litter also became symptomatic at about 8...I absolutely loved that female - she had been passed around a time or two, back and forth to Germany to be titled....she was absolutely one of the nicest and the best tempered females I have ever seen - I had 3 females living in the house and riding loose in a sports car...she was grateful to be in the house and just settled on a big bed beside my couch when she started losing her ability to walk. I was devastated to lose her at 12 - obviously to DM...I was not able to end up keeping anything from her and never managed to get a breeding to her son...so don't have anything with her lines 

"It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck......"


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Debbie, that is a lot to spend for diagnosis and rehab. You are wonderful to try so hard. Lee, that is heartbreaking. Thank you all for explaining. As I, I was curious because my first one had bad arthritis and cancer, and I wonder if it might have been DM. She moved slowly toward the end but did not have all the indicators, she was mostly just stiff when she got up. She was close to 14.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

There used to be a lady named Margaret on the PDB who has a webpage called The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry. She lost one of her dogs to DM, which made her determined to find out as much as she could about the disease. She was a big fan of Dr. Clemmon, a veterinary researcher who has been studying DM for many years. 

Dr. Clemmons firmly believes the current DM test is not effective. This article I found in Dogs Naturally sums up his thinking:

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/week-nine-degenerative-myelopathy-sod-1-test-dhea-soy-milk-incontinence-lyme-vaccine-brain-tumor/



> Unfortunately, the test for the SOD 1 mutation, which is used by many vets as a means to definitively diagnose DM, is not a very accurate test.
> 
> I have heard and read different opinions about the value of DM testing in predicting disease and eliminating carriers of disease. I have seen patients with DM without any abnormal copies of the SOD 1 gene, and elderly ‘At Risk’ patients (with two copies of the abnormal gene) with no disease whose owners were panicking every time their dog dragged a toe. No test is going to be 100% accurate, but there really doesn’t seem to be very good correlation at all between the At Risk / Clear state and disease.
> 
> ...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Sunsilver

I think the big stumbling point here may be terminology. At Risk means that the dog carries two copies of the gene and IF it lives long enough symptoms will develop. It does not mean the dog will become symptomatic at 8 years old. Read the statistics, DM positive dogs killed in accidents, injured and euthanized, cancer, bloat, etc. They never make it to an age to develop symptoms. 
I totally disagree that testing takes focus off of finding a cure. The pet industry is one of the biggest industries worldwide. Tick off a bunch of pet owners and see what happens. It's the grieving pet owners that drive the research, and the desperate ones that offer up their pets as test subjects on the off chance of finding a cure.
And yes it has become a go to diagnosis, that needs to stop.
They have known or suspected for years that the disease is different in GSD's. This isn't new.

Not sure what is up with Clemmons. From leading the research to trying to stop it? How exactly do we track the disease without testing and diagnosing dogs? And if the test is no good why are dogs testing at risk dying?


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

"I attended Dr. Clemmons’s Degenerative Myelopathy lecture at the American Holistic Veterinary Medical conference in Kansas City last month..."

I would point out that this conference was held in September 2013.

*Sorry, August 2013


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you buy a living creature to share your life with, then you will undergo heartbreak at some point. 

It is inevitable. 

You cannot possibly breed out every horrible thing that a dog can get, and any breeder who claims they are is lying. But good breeders try to make informed decisions and produce dogs that maintain good health for as long as possible. 

I lost my Jenna at 12.75 years last week. She lost her back end, totally paralyzed. The week before she was trying to climb onto the chair to get onto the table at the vet -- there for an ear infection. She was walking, running, climbing, a picture of health for an OLD dog. I put her in with her grand daughter, Tinny, and she really enjoyed the puppy. It was fun to watch age and youth together. I wish I took a picture. But how do you know that a week later you would be at the vet, letting them put the juice into the critter you loved for almost 13 years. 

Well, you just can't have it both ways. You cannot have the greatest dog on the planet and then lose that dog and not be sad. They are not going to live forever, and yes, there are much worse things than DM. Do we want DM in our lines? Of course not. But I think that we are expecting a bit much to expect folks not to endure heart break when they have chosen to have a living creature as a pet.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

No one can guarantee that a dog won’t suffer from a genetic disease no matter how many tests are done before breeding but the ONLY way to lessen the number of dogs affected or find a cure, is through research. It’s hard to believe that any good breeder wouldn’t want to support this kind of research, the test is about $60. The heartbreak dog owners suffer when they lose a pet isn’t the issue, it’s about the dogs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think a lot of people don’t see the underlying issue of the fact that by encouraging a breeder to make choices by following a flawed guideline, we will be inevitably hurting the breed regardless. 

The imperfect test results are not a “thing of the past”. A friend of mine has a dog RIGHT NOW from two DM CLEAR parents that is testing as a carrier with 2 different labs. A big name stud dog that was imported to the US had carrier results in Germany and clear results here. He’s CURRENTLY producing carrier puppies when bred to clear females. How can you say one way or another that the breeder is ignorant for not testing, when the outcomes literally aren’t reflecting accurate results at all?


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

Because no system is perfect. Of course there are outliers. The important thing is to at least try to work with the system that's established--or come up with a better one--to improve results by widely testing. You get as close as possible to the black and white answer by continuing to do the research, and that means participating, if only to help *prove* the current system is too flawed. Does dealing with an imperfect system suck? Are there unknown consequences slip-sliding around the results? Obviously. But right now it's what's being used, and ethically speaking, a breeder is expected to use due diligence to assess liabilities not only for today, but the future. The amusing thing about this topic is that this site is riddled with "don't take their word for it" when it comes to breeders. It's practically a mantra. I understand questioning the validity of the claims in current DM testing results in this arena, but not shoulder shrugging when talking about buyers and what to look for at large. The fact that a breeder is doing genetic and structural testing is an important piece of the larger puzzle in good breeding practices.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, at 13 or 14 we know we are going to lose that dog soon and we can prepare. At a much young age, it’s very sad. We expect to get those extra, quiet elderly years with our dogs and feel cheated if we don’t. It’s very hard to hear of dogs suffering so badly due to DM. When my middle aged dog started bleeding out of both ends, for a while I thought I might lose her. I would have been devastated.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> Debbie, that is a lot to spend for diagnosis and rehab. You are wonderful to try so hard. Lee, that is heartbreaking. Thank you all for explaining. As I, I was curious because my first one had bad arthritis and cancer, and I wonder if it might have been DM. She moved slowly toward the end but did not have all the indicators, she was mostly just stiff when she got up. She was close to 14.



DM is debilitating.....first subtle neurological signs, toes not lifting, then dragging a bit....down to loss of hind limb use and incontinence in both functions....at 14, stiffness? Old age....we knew there was a mass in my 14 year old near the heart - she threw a clot and basically had a stroke...it was inoperable - we discovered it in Aug and she was allowed to go to the Bridge 3 months later:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying: She was healthy and active until the day the clot hit her...


Lee


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> DM is debilitating.....first subtle neurological signs, toes not lifting, then dragging a bit....down to loss of hind limb use and incontinence in both functions....at 14, stiffness? Old age....we knew there was a mass in my 14 year old near the heart - she threw a clot and basically had a stroke...it was inoperable - we discovered it in Aug and she was allowed to go to the Bridge 3 months later:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying: She was healthy and active until the day the clot hit her...
> 
> 
> Lee


Mine was incontinent and having trouble with her back end just as you described. She could not get up fast enough to get outside and when she did, her legs gave way. But when I took her into the vet they diagnosed cancer and that was why we lost her. My regular vet who could have told us had just sold the practice and the new vet was very inexperienced. She said it was arthritis and cancer.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> How do those of you who lost a dog to DM know for sure that is what it was? I’m not disagreeing, I’m curious if everyone paid for a necropsy.


 My dog Shane died while being operated on for bloat (torsional twist)....6-7 months after being diagnosed w/DM he was in a "Wheel Chair"....approx 1 & 1/2 years later...he was gone though not directly related to DM....so we had approx 2 more years with him after the diagnosis---

When he was diagnosed with DM by a specialist who had seen the disease way to often.....my wife and I had never heard of it...there was no DNA testing for it then.....symptoms slowly progressed... Exactly...as the Vet told us they would....Shane was never in pain...just my wife and I...frankly i never really thought about trying to confirm after he passed...I was so stunned-speechless and crying when I got that phone call....I couldn't really think at all...like many things in life it's about "trust" in this case of the "specialist"....this Doc like some wasn't loaded with bedside manner initially....but when he brought Shane back to us in the exam room (after 10-15 mins checking/testing)....I'll always...always remember the look on his face .....then told us the diagnosis.....he was certain because he'd seen it so often... and we believed him...... yes I'm aware there are things that can mimic DM.

Turned out the reason he seemed "lacking" in bedside manner was he suspected DM from the start.....BTW.I was sure the latest hip surgery would fix Shane when we walked in...the Vet dreaded from the start what he might have to tell us...in the end- what I thought was lacking in this guy... was actually just a ton of heart and caring.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

As far as testing - it is better than a blind guess!

I have bred to 2 carriers with clears (one a "top competition dog" whose owner was loathe to test but did - carrier)

In all litters, whether from 2 clears or a carrier and a clear, papers are on limited and along with normal requirements for release to full, I want the pup DM tested prior to release and breeding....we may never totally eradicate DM, but I think by adding this to the list of things we look at prior to doing a breeding, we can greatly reduce it.


Lee


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That is interesting, Shane’s Dad. My current vet always tells us the possibilities up front so we know what we might be dealing with. When my older dog got sick twice this year, she said it could be a blockage, ulcers, pancreatitis, or several other things and listed them all. That way I knew what they were looking for, which tests would give critical information and why they were important.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know that making breeding decisions off of questionable tests is responsible. If there are false positives, are there also false negatives? With a false positive, ok, remove from the breeding pool, or breed carriers only to clear dogs and you are safe. Maybe. Know enough not to breed back into the line that produced that carrier. False negative, well you breed your carrier to a clear (false negative) and 25% of the offspring are affected. That's a slam dunk on your reputation, because you sold those puppies with the assurance that you are testing for DM. And maybe you produced 3 or 4 or even more litters before any of the affected dogs were diagnosed. At an average of 7 pups per litter, times 3 litters, 21 pups, 5 are probably going to be affected. 

I don't know, the attitude that it is better than nothing is, I don't know, kind of disturbing. I think you are as well-off doing what we have done all along, follow our pups and pay attention to what they have been diagnosed with, and what produced what, and make our breeding decisions off of that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, at 13 or 14 we know we are going to lose that dog soon and we can prepare. At a much young age, it’s very sad. We expect to get those extra, quiet elderly years with our dogs and feel cheated if we don’t. It’s very hard to hear of dogs suffering so badly due to DM. When my middle aged dog started bleeding out of both ends, for a while I thought I might lose her. I would have been devastated.


Sabi was diagnosed at almost 11. She had been permanently retired after she fell getting into the car the second time. And I had gone to the vet suspecting arthritis. I left suspecting a disease I had never heard off. 
She was nearly 13 when I put her down. She earned a retirement she never got. She deserved to amble through her senior years at my side. She was devastated at being left at home. She was offended at needing help. She walked with as much dignity as she could and when her back legs collapsed she would pretend she wanted to sit there and survey her kingdom. I let her pretend. 
It isn't THAT it kills them, it's HOW it does it. It steals them one tiny piece at a time. It doesn't hurt. It leaves the brain and the will but destroys the spirit of both owner and dog. With no pain they can't think why they can't move and are confused and frightened. And as owners we can't decide when enough is enough because they are still healthy and in no pain. 
I want a cure. We can't get there without testing. And if 1/100 tests are flawed thats 99 people saved the grief and 99 dogs that get to enjoy their golden years. Yes I know the math is flawed. The logic isn't.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Is there a documented fail rate on the test?

I can understand a breeder's reluctance to test since there are both false negatives and positives. Me personally, I would test and then only breed to clear. From what I understand, and this is just from listening to IPO people talk, there is concern that trying to eliminate something that may or may not pop up would take a lot of great stock out of the equation needlessly. 

If lineage is long lived and the breeder can talk of this with confidence and pride I would be willing to look the other way on no DM testing. If they think 10 is ripe old age, then I may walk away without DM testing, or period. 

Do they kist DODs on the pedigree charts for a dog's lineage?


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Absolutely right. To love anything, anyone, pets included, is to open yourself up to heartbreak. And it's a real testament to the worthiness of loving that we repeatedly open ourselves anyway.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

CometDog said:


> Is there a documented fail rate on the test?
> 
> I can understand a breeder's reluctance to test since there are both false negatives and positives. Me personally, I would test and then only breed to clear. From what I understand, and this is just from listening to IPO people talk, there is concern that trying to eliminate something that may or may not pop up would take a lot of great stock out of the equation needlessly.
> 
> ...


My only question is that if there are false positives and false negatives, who really knows who is "clear" for sure? See my example in the previous post, of an imported stud to this country who tested both as clear and carrier, and two "clear" dogs who were bred to produce a "carrier" puppy.. How can you breed to "clear" when you have no idea the validity of the test? Lots of people with carriers will re test and confirm results with another lab, sometimes ending up with a different result. I highly doubt most "clear" dogs are being retested even to just give a better idea of consistency in what they are looking for.

The person I spoke to most recently about her experience with a "clear by parentage" breeding, said that OFA outright told her that her breeder LIED about their results, before admitting that they don't actually know for sure that they can identify the collective gene markers responsible for identifying DM. That mentality and accusation is unacceptable.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Sabi was diagnosed at almost 11. She had been permanently retired after she fell getting into the car the second time. And I had gone to the vet suspecting arthritis. I left suspecting a disease I had never heard off.
> She was nearly 13 when I put her down. She earned a retirement she never got. She deserved to amble through her senior years at my side. She was devastated at being left at home. She was offended at needing help. She walked with as much dignity as she could and when her back legs collapsed she would pretend she wanted to sit there and survey her kingdom. I let her pretend.
> It isn't THAT it kills them, it's HOW it does it. It steals them one tiny piece at a time. It doesn't hurt. It leaves the brain and the will but destroys the spirit of both owner and dog. With no pain they can't think why they can't move and are confused and frightened. And as owners we can't decide when enough is enough because they are still healthy and in no pain.
> I want a cure. We can't get there without testing. And if 1/100 tests are flawed thats 99 people saved the grief and 99 dogs that get to enjoy their golden years. Yes I know the math is flawed. The logic isn't.


That is a good point about no cure possible without testing. Is there research money going toward DM?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> That is a good point about no cure possible without testing. Is there research money going toward DM?


Lots of it. Since the suspicion is that it would also mean a cure for ALS. 

It has come to my attention over the years that in general when breeders are very resistant to testing it's because there are at risk dogs in the pedigrees. This would never have come to light except that vets are beginning to push pet owners for testing. 

Look, I was told 3 times by 3 different doctors that I didn't have cancer. Turns out I did. No test is 100%. If I had said testing is flawed so I just won't do it, I would be dead.
I will never advocate for dogs being removed from the gene pool by test results but it gives breeders a jumping off point. This dog tested at risk so lets only breed to a clear.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I had micro arrays and all kinds of crazy genetics done on my 2 disabled kids. They have some unique things going on. At the time it meant nothing to them, but if it contributed to isolating trends in genes and avoiding triggers for these kids with autism that are fine and just POOF disappear during their toddler years...well I feel like I am doing my part by contributing. And now 9 years later, it turns out that through that research there is gene therapy on the horizon that may help calm stimming, scripting, and other OCD behaviors that keep kids like my kid from progressing. 

I can understand the reluctance to put a mark on your breeding program too though. Especially if it has a chance of being undeserved or false. I can see both sides of this argument for sure.


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## Melissaw1010 (May 13, 2018)

Harley was diagnosed with it around 10 years old. He wasn’t in pain in the beginning and he was walking like a drunken sailor sometimes. That was the first thing that alerted me to an issue . Then he would knuckle his foot and drag his feet.

It was a very slow onset for him at first And knowing that it wasn’t a painful condition I just did more things to make him comfortable, like putting runners around the house so he could have good traction. A little before his 13th birthday it was getting worse and because he was losing some more mobility in his back it was putting extra pressure on his front legs and his arthritis was very severe. But he was a trooper and hanging in there. It got to the point where I would have to position his back legs for him when he was eating for balance so he wouldn’t possibly fall. Towards the end he would slide off his bed in the middle of the night and cried because he couldn’t get up . Before he passed there was twice in one week he pooped himself because he couldn’t get up in time. He would walk and try to scratch himself at the same time and almost fall. It got to the point that we were afraid to even leave the house for an hour or two that he was going to lose his footing and fall and hurt himself or break a leg of something. For well over a year we didn’t take vacations together and made sure one of us was always home to take care of him. 

So even though it was not a painful situation for the most part it was very sad to see his quality of life go down. He was there mentally even at 13 and I wanted him to die with dignity so when he started pooping himself that was when I made the decision that it was his time. He didn’t put up a fight and he went very peacefully. I’m blessed to of had 13 amazing years with him.

When the breeder told me that she did not test for it, I could understand if her reasoning was that it was not reliable. But to state that “no dog of hers in 18 years has ever had it ? “ How would she even know. You mean to tell me that she knew of the medical condition of every single puppy that she sold until it died ? 

Also how does she know that there was no dogs that she sold that wound up being in rescue or adopted out to somebody else ? So in my opinion there could’ve been dogs that had it but the owners wouldnt possibly know who the breeder was to even report it to or even care to let the breeder know.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Melissaw1010 said:


> Harley was diagnosed with it around 10 years old. He wasn’t in pain in the beginning and he was walking like a drunken sailor sometimes. That was the first thing that alerted me to an issue . Then he would knuckle his foot and drag his feet.
> 
> It was a very slow onset for him at first And knowing that it wasn’t a painful condition I just did more things to make him comfortable, like putting runners around the house so he could have good traction. A little before his 13th birthday it was getting worse and because he was losing some more mobility in his back it was putting extra pressure on his front legs and his arthritis was very severe. But he was a trooper and hanging in there. It got to the point where I would have to position his back legs for him when he was eating for balance so he wouldn’t possibly fall. Towards the end he would slide off his bed in the middle of the night and cried because he couldn’t get up . Before he passed there was twice in one week he pooped himself because he couldn’t get up in time. He would walk and try to scratch himself at the same time and almost fall. It got to the point that we were afraid to even leave the house for an hour or two that he was going to lose his footing and fall and hurt himself or break a leg of something. For well over a year we didn’t take vacations together and made sure one of us was always home to take care of him.
> 
> ...



I agree as I stated before......if/when I get another pup....the breeder WILL be testing for DM.....because it's touched me in my house before,,,,,I know what it does to a family day to day.


I posted this because reading Harley's story brought back memories and I'm emotional from reading....so here goes.....many folks just don't get what it means to LOVE one of these dogs....IMO when you bring one of these guys into your family... it should be like unspoken wedding vows....through good and bad...sickness and health.....youth and old age....it's simple really....you do what you need to do-where or whenever it needs doing.....It's a shame more folks that start threads don't get it.


I understand you didn't tell the story for a pat on the back....Harley's the reason you started this thread....regardless you get a pat on the back any way........GOOD ON YOU AND YOURS...JUST FOR BEING YOU.....YOU "GET" IT


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Melissaw1010 said:


> Harley was diagnosed with it around 10 years old. He wasn’t in pain in the beginning and he was walking like a drunken sailor sometimes. That was the first thing that alerted me to an issue . Then he would knuckle his foot and drag his feet.
> 
> It was a very slow onset for him at first And knowing that it wasn’t a painful condition I just did more things to make him comfortable, like putting runners around the house so he could have good traction. A little before his 13th birthday it was getting worse and because he was losing some more mobility in his back it was putting extra pressure on his front legs and his arthritis was very severe. But he was a trooper and hanging in there. It got to the point where I would have to position his back legs for him when he was eating for balance so he wouldn’t possibly fall. Towards the end he would slide off his bed in the middle of the night and cried because he couldn’t get up . Before he passed there was twice in one week he pooped himself because he couldn’t get up in time. He would walk and try to scratch himself at the same time and almost fall. It got to the point that we were afraid to even leave the house for an hour or two that he was going to lose his footing and fall and hurt himself or break a leg of something. For well over a year we didn’t take vacations together and made sure one of us was always home to take care of him.
> 
> ...


It takes me a long time to respond to some of these posts because it is still so very painful. I agree with Shanes' Dad. Some folks will just never get it.
Sabi was the love of my life. She was my partner, my best friend and my soul mate. Watching her go out that way devastated me in ways I will never be able to articulate. To my mind breeders will never get it until it either touches them or puppy buyers simply stand firm and refuse to allow any other path. 
Every time someone stands firm on testing I raise a silent cheer. Because I don't want anyone else to go through this and because I want to know that in her final days Sabi accomplished that. I made her a promise that on this one thing I would never bend. She stood her ground and had my back all her life, I would never disrespect that by giving a breeder a pass on this. She deserved so much more.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is human nature to call with a complaint, than to call and let the breeder know that your dog made it to 13 and is happy and healthy as ever. So, if you have produced a number of litters and no one ever called to say that their dog has DM, well, then chances are pretty good that you are not producing scads of DM. 

Breeders have to make a lot of decisions all the time. Some of them people will not like. Some of them no one ever knows about because breeders do not report the decision to the world at large. I think it might be helpful to have a sticky that clearly spells out the tests that are available to the breed, pass/fail criteria, how the genetics work, opinions about the test themselves, etc. I mean, I have a dog out there that will die young because she has a heart condition that is inoperable. We can do cardiac testing on our dogs, and I did that, but the OFA testing that I did, was simply the vet listening to the heart with a stethoscope. Other testing might be a radiograph or ultrasound of the heart. How expensive will that be? Will it indicate that the dog is free of exactly what possible heart conditions. 

This is nature. We are not going to eliminate everything out there that a dog might suffer from. Do we remove an entire line from our breeding pool because we produced a puppy with a heritable condition? Again, there are a lot of decisions breeders make. Breeders know that owners will suffer. Most of those owners have already told them how they suffered when their last dog passed. We want for people to enjoy a happy and relatively healthy long life with the pet they get from us. There are no guaranties though.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_With multiple known forms of the SOD1 mutation, widespread distribution of the mutations among many dog breeds, and evidence of a complex interaction with at least one modifier gene, it is clear that the genetics of DM are complex. This is not a disorder that breeders will be able to control with a simple mutation test, and it is very misleading to think of DM as "caused by a mutation". The best strategies for breeders to use for genetic management of DM have not been identified and nobody seems to be addressing this issue, so breeders are making their own decisions and crossing fingers.

The situation is made even more complex because the function of SOD1 is not limited to effects on the nerves for voluntary muscles. In fact, the superoxide dismutase gene produces an enzyme that is a key part of your body's own anti-oxidant defense mechanism. Superoxide dismutase is a "free radical scavenger". Free radicals are highly reactive (oxidative) molecules that are produced by normal metabolic processes but can damage DNA, cells, proteins, and lipids, causing disease. The damaging effects of free radicals are mitigated by the body's antioxidant systems, including superoxide dismutase, and maintaining a balance between the production of free radicals and their inactivation by antioxidants is critical. A mutation in SOD1 doesn't "cause" DM in dogs; it wreaks havoc with the body's essential defense mechanism against free radicals anywhere in the body, including the nerves to the voluntary muscles.

While many breeders hope for DNA tests that will accurately predict risk of DM in dogs, the reality is that not only is this unlikely to happen, but DM is probably not the only problem this mutation is causing in dogs. There is surely a longer list of negative consequences from the SOD1 mutation in dogs that we have yet to connect with this gene. I predict that this will only become more complicated._

The lesson(s) from SOD1 and degenerative myelopathy - The Institute of Canine Biology

This is an interesting and fairly recent article which seems promising in spite of everything. So they have identified a "modifier" that needs to be present in order to weaken the body for anything to happen?

TBH this is a bit above my pay grade, lol, if someone else could step in?

For naysayers this indicates that the test has been revised, the big question now seems to be why positive dogs aren't becoming symptomatic and what causes the huge discrepancy in age of onset.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Has anyone had personal experience, or within your friends network, with a GSD testing Carrier (N/A) but becoming symptomatic?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, but I do with a dog testing normal, twice, and having DM upon necropsy.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

lhczth said:


> No, but I do with a dog testing normal, twice, and having DM upon necropsy.


That seems to undermine a lot of assumptions.... ?

I've been skepical of the hardline "DM Clear by parentage" label, from a zoological/genetic view. DM is a mutation, and mutations happen every single time DNA is transcribed/copied (reproduction). We have no idea what mutations - errors, deletions, insertions - were "programmed" into offspring, until the resulting animal's genes are tested, and examined.


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## JAT (Jun 7, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> There used to be a lady named Margaret on the PDB who has a webpage called The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry. She lost one of her dogs to DM, which made her determined to find out as much as she could about the disease. She was a big fan of Dr. Clemmon, a veterinary researcher who has been studying DM for many years.
> 
> Dr. Clemmons firmly believes the current DM test is not effective. This article I found in Dogs Naturally sums up his thinking:
> 
> ...


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

I just found out my young female has tested A/A for DM at OFA while my male tested N/N I am so upset and now I will get my female spayed because I WILL NOT BREED from Carrier that could be passed on to her puppies. I have been through a pain of losing a pet to DM and I will not put anyone human or dog through it. I think all breeding GSDs should have a N/N to breed, unknown is not good enough anymore.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

DM is a recessive gene so the breeder saying : "I never had it come up in my lineage" is almost irrelevant. A recessive gene can be carried for generations before showing up. The only way to really know is to test.

I still don't understand why breeders don't want to test. Whatever the outcome is, every dog can still be bred. Even an 'At risk' dog can be bred, as long as it is to a Clear.

If there's one chance for me to improve this breed by doing additional tests, I will have them done.

I would suggest to find another breeder. Honestly, the ones who don't test for DM are a minority. Why would you take that risk again? You shouldn't have problems finding a breeder who test for DM. Then, I would have the puppy tested as soon as it comes home, before you get emotionnally attached.

I have never had a dog with DM but many persons that I know did. They told me how hard it was on them.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

The problem I see is perspective buyers are scared straight when they hear a result like carrier or at risk result so breeders that don’t test lose buyers. I would say 100% of high quality breeders test and IMO only use clears or carriers to a clear so they can sell pups. BYB very rarely if ever test for anything.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hexenrudel said:


> DM is a recessive gene so the breeder saying : "I never had it come up in my lineage" is almost irrelevant. A recessive gene can be carried for generations before showing up. The only way to really know is to test.


My issues with that thinking is that having now seen DM at work I can look back at several dogs I had personal contact with that I would suspect had DM. We just didn't know what we were looking at then. I was speaking with a lady a few months ago who's dog I would bet had DM and she was telling me he was getting old and fell down a lot. She had no idea, and how do you tell a stranger that? 
Plus you have the issue of it being late onset. I don't believe it's a matter of at risk dogs not developing symptoms. I think it's a matter of the late onset makes it just as likely they will die of something else first.
I have had several breeders state that of all the things their dogs could have, DM would be better since it's painless and late onset. As an owner it isn't painless to me and it doesn't happen late enough.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

dojoson41 said:


> I just found out my young female has tested A/A for DM at OFA while my male tested N/N I am so upset and now I will get my female spayed because I WILL NOT BREED from Carrier that could be passed on to her puppies. I have been through a pain of losing a pet to DM and I will not put anyone human or dog through it. I think all breeding GSDs should have a N/N to breed, unknown is not good enough anymore.


As per the OFA, about only 55% are DM clear. I think it probably makes sense since I see carriers all the time.
So you think that 45% of GSDs shouldn't be bred?????? That's huge!!!!!!! Please consider that amongst the 55% that are clear, many may have temperament faults, low drive, weak nerves and other health issues like EPI or H/E problems.

Breeding GSD is not only about DM. As long as you don't produce 'At risk' dogs. Because we now have a test, breeders don't breed 2 carriers together anymore so slowly but surely, DM will disappear from lines.

Let's see it this way. As a breeder, I have to choose between 2 stud dogs.

*#1*
has OFA Fair hips, normal elbows, DM carrier. All of his littermates passed their OFA certification, no dysplasia. He has rock solid nerves, resilience, dominance, huge grips, high prey and food drive. Light sable. IGP3 titled. Proven sire for working ability and health.

*#2*
has OFA Excellent hips, normal elbows, DM clear. Has 2 littermates with hip dysplasia. 1 littermate with EPI. Nerves are ok but not rock solid. Rather sensitive dog who can shut down easily in training. Dark sable, IGP3 titled. Unproven sire.

I would choose #1. Even though more research would need to be done, this is the male that would likely produce the best puppies for me. He will not produce DM affected puppies with my DM clear bitch. He will likely be the one producing the best orthopedics in my pups. On top of that, he's the one who should produce the best working ability in my puppies.

Eliminating DM carriers would narrow the gene pool too much and create other problems down the road. You have to know how genes are being passed on and select breedings wisely. We expect a lot from this versatile breed.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It’s the information that a breeder needs to know. I wouldn’t remove a DM carrier from a breeding program if they were indeed breed worthy in every other area. I myself would be hesitant to breed an affected unless it was one spectacular dog and of course it would be to a clear.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> I have had several breeders state that of all the things their dogs could have, DM would be better since it's painless and late onset. As an owner it isn't painless to me and it doesn't happen late enough.


Unfortunately, our one experience with DM was not late onset. Halo's first signs of something wrong started just 3 months past her 8th birthday. It took a few more months to rule everything else out and confirm DM. She was gone at 9-1/2 years old. 

Cava is clear by parentage, but I did an Embark panel on her anyway and she's confirmed clear.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Unfortunately, our one experience with DM was not late onset. Halo's first signs of something wrong started just 3 months past her 8th birthday. It took a few more months to rule everything else out and confirm DM. She was gone at 9-1/2 years old.
> 
> Cava is clear by parentage, but I did an Embark panel on her anyway and she's confirmed clear.


Wretched disease. They say symptoms appear in general after 8 years old. I guess some breeders figure that's long enough to have a dog. 
Clearly they have never loved a dog.


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## southernwindk9 (Sep 6, 2021)

Melissaw1010 said:


> I lost my 13 -year-old male to DM so of course testing is something that is crucial for me when selecting a breeder. I had one answer me “After doing research I found that the tests are not accurate enough for me to rely on . I have been breeding for 18 years and never had it come up in my lineage” can this be true and DM testing not reliable ?


Yes, its not 100% reliable, the only REAL way to know if your dog had DM is when you put him down to go ahead and do a necropsy.


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## southernwindk9 (Sep 6, 2021)

there are other diseases that mimic DM and can lead to a misdiagnosis, such as Type II intervertebral disc protrusion, neoplasia or other primary axonal diseases. Type II disc disease is the most common offender, particularly in an older German Shepherd dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Seems like about once a year this thread comes up. I just read the whole thing again, raw because I was also just watching video of my beautiful Sabi girl swaying and stumbling as she supervised yard time. 
As the years pass I get more resolved, not more resigned. DM needs to be wiped out and the only possible way that will ever happen is research and testing. Breeders are breed wardens and it falls to them to enforce this. Flawed or not it is all the defense we have and I am firmly in the camp of all information is good information.
I am typing this having once again wanted not to notice that Shadows rear middle nails are getting shorter and shorter. I just don't want to know.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

My opinion is you do the best with the information you have. When you know better, you do better. If you aren’t testing, or you are doing breedings that you know will produce A/A dogs, then you aren’t doing the best you can with the information you have.


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