# Well, it happened. He bit someone.



## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

Sad, sad, sad. And so predictable. I could write the details, but the details don't really matter. The essential ingredients in our neighbor's dog produced a predictable outcome:

*Adult male GSD + testicles + alone all day indoors day after day = bit neighbor.*

*The trifecta. *

I love this dog, like the owner, and feel terrible. He's a magnificent dog. But....he's loose in the house, neighbor with intact small dog walks by, little girl opens the door, dog rushes to go after the dog and bites its handler.

Ugh. Please, people. Don't get a GSD if you plan to leave them alone all day. You've clearly given them their job: guard the house and family. You've also, by your long hours of absence, given them their mandate: freely decide for yourself (the dog) to choose who's the enemy.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

what does testicles have to do with anything?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

What does being home all day have to do with anything?

Most people work and leave their dogs home.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

and how does love correlate with getting a dog and leaving him alone all day. i do agree with the overall point of your post.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the ++= formula is not accurate.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> what does testicles have to do with anything?


You got me. I'll have to duck the eggs thrown my way, and that's okay. 

But every adult male, intact, left alone all day that I have seen (so yes, it's my perspective, but aren't all posts?) has aggression issues, like a time bomb ready to go off.

Sad...weren't GSD's the original Seeing Eye Dog? What on earth happened over the years.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

katieliz said:


> the ++= formula is not accurate.


(ducking eggs, again :blush

What is the missing ingredient? Because it seems like a lot of male GSD problems are out there and have these three in common, despite the love, attention and basic training.

Genetics?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> what does testicles have to do with anything?


According to my wife, it means cleaning up the dog poop is my job 


As for your neighbors GSD, its sound like its a structure issue, no or too little training.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

katieliz said:


> and how does love correlate with getting a dog and leaving him alone all day. i do agree with the overall point of your post.


Don't know if that's at me.
Is there a new requirement for dog ownership and love, to have a human with them at almost all times?

Are only couples where one can stay at home allowed to have dogs?

Sometimes this place just cracks me up.


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## mechanic1908 (Jul 16, 2013)

I'm just wondering why the girl was opening the door?
If my neighbour decided to open my door and I wasn't home I'm sure I can't guarantee you wouldn't get bitten either?
Or am I missing something?


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

:blush::blush::blush:

Okay, that's three eggs so far.

So, then what are the surefire ingredients for well-meaning people with their GSDs? I'm not talking about all the subtle variants, but the BASICS of how to raise an aggressive, male GSD. (My definition of aggressive is aggressive NOT on command, but deciding for themselves, inappropriately).

Here's my go at it. Feel free to pick it apart, and maybe the final product will be pretty accurate (there are always exceptions to the rule).


Get a GSD from a risky source for sound temperament (genetics), such as a backyard breeder. You might get lucky...you might not.
Don't train. Or if you do, do it sporadically and without consistency.
Keep the dog at home, either in the yard or inside. Let the dog spend most of its hours thinking for himself.
When you get home, take him for a walk, at most. Then go out to happy hour, your evening class, night job, girlfriend's house - anything that takes you away from him.
Now that he's unpredictable, reinforce his feelings of insecurity by being worried about how he reacts in new situations. This will cue him that his feelings of fear are correct.
Don't neuter. Keep the hormones raging.
Make sure most of what he hears you say is a correction, so he doesn't get very used to how to please you.
When he's cute or handsome, just go love on him for no reason. While love is a wonderful thing, but in the absence of training and learning how to please you, it does nothing to reinforce what he _should_ do.
Let him choose where he sits, sleeps and when/what he eats in the house.
Okay, how about now? Did I get these right? I'm not posting to be "right" or to provoke an argument. But since my trifecta was short sighted (I was just upset, just learning of the situation), what are the ingredients?

I think this is a good start. Edits? Because people have got to know. So tired of these stories. I feel bad for the dogs.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

mechanic1908 said:


> I'm just wondering why the girl was opening the door?
> If my neighbour decided to open my door and I wasn't home I'm sure I can't guarantee you wouldn't get bitten either?
> Or am I missing something?


She came home.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

More like lack of training, socialization, and supervision of the dog with children=neighbor gets bit


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I see this as a isolated incident.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Adult male GSD + testicles + alone all day indoors day after day = bit neighbor.
As I'm hoping to bring home a male puppy in the near future that will grow to be an adult intact GSD I would certainly hope this is a bad joke. Lots of people work. Lots of people also socialize their dogs, train them and ensure they are good examples of the breed. A few bad apples doesn't make the whole tree bad. Too bad some people can't handle their dogs.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

Courtney said:


> I see this as a isolated incident.


Okay, so I know I'm in left field...but I go back to my earlier point of GSDs being the original Seeing Eye Dogs. When did raising a GSD become such a challenge to prevent aggression? Genetics must have changed over time, due to bad breeding. I don't think the "shepherd", which should be gentle by nature, and only protective when there is a VERY clear threat, was supposed to have these issues.

Of course, now I'm speaking generally, and not of this incident.

Thoughts?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Myah's Mom said:


> Okay, how about now? Did I get these right? I'm not posting to be "right" or to provoke an argument. But since my trifecta was short sighted (I was just upset, just learning of the situation), what are the ingredients?


I'd agree, more or less.

I might quibble with your #8 and #9 (or at least the first two points of 9 -- obviously I don't let my dogs choose for themselves what they want to eat) because I don't see affection and a reasonable degree of autonomy creating unruly terrors. Silvia Trkman's not exactly out there wailing to the heavens about how an excess of love and freedom is causing her dogs to take over the world (although they _are_ taking over the world, in agility at least!).

But shaky genetics, inconsistent "training," undersocialization, mostly negative attention, inadequate exercise or mental stimulation, and a total lack of meaningful relationship? Yep, there's your recipe for a junkyard dog.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I'd agree, more or less.
> 
> I might quibble with your #8 and #9 (or at least the first two points of 9 -- obviously I don't let my dogs choose for themselves what they want to eat) because I don't see affection and a reasonable degree of autonomy creating unruly terrors. Silvia Trkman's not exactly out there wailing to the heavens about how an excess of love and freedom is causing her dogs to take over the world (although they _are_ taking over the world, in agility at least!).
> 
> But shaky genetics, inconsistent "training," undersocialization, mostly negative attention, inadequate exercise or mental stimulation, and a total lack of meaningful relationship? Yep, there's your recipe for a junkyard dog.


lol! Okay, by choosing when/what to eat, I mean counter surfing and/or expecting their handler's food to be shared. 

Myah better lay down and forget about the fact I'm eating. Then, I'll share with her at the very end - only sometimes, and only if she goes through some obedience commands.

I love, love, love on her. Hugs, kisses and lots of affection. But she gets at least that amount, if not more, when she does what she is asked to do.

Okay, I've got to sign out. I've got get on with my day.

At least, between all the eggs and what not, there may be some pearls of truth that rise to the surface here, as the thread gets a full working over. :apple:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

You have a good list as for dogs in general but I don't see it in this instance necessarily. Don't know enough about the individual dog.

I agree with courtney that it's probably isolated incident.

GSDs are a breed with aggression, protectiveness, and prey drive among other things. Girl opens the door and one or all of these could kick in along with lack of training etc..

I think many GSDs genetics have take a hit unfortunately, and many would not be fit to be seeing eye dogs.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

Rule #1- with any dog NEVER leave a dog home alone with a child...period......
if the child opens the door the dog might bolt out.. doesnt matter whether intact or not....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Maybe it's not the dog, but poor ownership......I mean many people don't have a clue about the breed, how to raise a dog like this, or common sense. The common sense and dog ownership skills are lacking often. Also, listen to some of the theories promulgated on these threads, real people believe this stuff and apply it to their dogs. Many people DONOT have the time or where withal to own this breed.....that's why I get so pissed when the nightingales try to make people believe everyone should be able to have a GS if that want....Crazy! Everybody shouldn't and often it results in disasters.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Seeing-eye dogs have extensive training....what does that have in common with the scenario you described???


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

faulty temperment. various combinations of circumstances and scenarios can have similar outcomes (the ++= thing), but the common denominator is faulty temperment. and faulty temperment should not be confused with prey drive. big difference in going after a small animal and biting a person.

imho.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what's sad is the lack of training and socializing. what's sad is people
always blame the dog.



Myah's Mom said:


> You got me. I'll have to duck the eggs thrown my way, and that's okay.
> 
> But every adult male, intact, left alone all day that I have seen (so yes, it's my perspective, but aren't all posts?) has aggression issues, like a time bomb ready to go off.
> 
> >>>>> Sad...weren't GSD's the original Seeing Eye Dog? What on earth happened over the years.<<<<<


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

that's exactly what it is.



ShatteringGlass said:


> More like lack of training, socialization, and supervision of the dog with children=neighbor gets bit


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

katieliz said:


> faulty temperment. various combinations of circumstances and scenarios can have similar outcomes (the ++= thing), but the common denominator is faulty temperment. and faulty temperment should not be confused with prey drive. big difference in going after a small animal and biting a person.
> 
> imho.


I could agree with this except there is not enough information to know what went on. 

For example, I assumed the person got bit trying to protect their little dog as opposed to the dog ran out and just bit the person. Big difference.

Dog after dog is a lot different than dog after human.

We don't know enough.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think we know a dog should be trained and socialized. i think we know a dog shouldn't door dash. i think we know a dog shouldn't go after a human or another dog. we know that don't we Jack's DaD but people don't train and socialize enough and we know that Jack's DaD.



Jack's Dad said:


> I could agree with this ex acept there is not enough information to know what went on.
> 
> >>>>> For example, I assumed the person got bit trying to protect their little dog as opposed to the dog ran out and just bit the person. Big difference.<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

faulty temperament, weak nerves, strong prey drive, poor genetics
is cover up terminology for a lack of training and socializing.



katieliz said:


> faulty temperment. various combinations of circumstances and scenarios can have similar outcomes (the ++= thing), but the common denominator is faulty temperment. and faulty temperment should not be confused with prey drive. big difference in going after a small animal and biting a person.
> 
> imho.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

doggiedad...nope. no amount of training and socialization can change faulty temperment (no matter what the cause is attributed to be). i'm surprised anyone would even think that. but hey, not the first time we've disagreed, lolol. and, btw, the four examples you give as coverup terminology are four entirely different issues. 

jd...i do agree that there is not enough info here to make an accurate call.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

I agree that dogs shouldn't:
door dash
go after dogs
go after people

Here's what I know directly, either observed or heard from the owner himself as we chat about our dogs:

Dog is territorial at home; cannot pass by the condo door without the dog upset (mildly or coming unglued, depending on what he senses, I presume)
Dog barely accepts visiting family members in the home; they are afraid of him and he, apparently, has to be crated, closely watched and the visitors mustering all confidence.
Dog doesn't like other male dogs, especially intact ones
Dog walks on a loose leash, but with a very commanding, albeit even intimidating, attitude
When I asked why he was still intact, the owner had "no reason, just never did it"

I, personally, adore this dog. He's handsome, he's friendly to us (yet still aloof...so perhaps "tolerant" is a better word), lets me pet him affectionately, is friendly to my girl.

Bearing in mind that I wasn't there as an eyewitness, but heard about it, this is approximately what seems to have happened:

Dog is home while owner works.
Apparently, owner and daughter came home.
Daughter opened front door.
Dog dashed out to go after another dog as a neighbor passed by with her dogs, growling, snarling and baring teeth (I bet that was sight to see, as he is very formidable in size and power)
Somehow, perhaps as owner tried to protect or break up a fight or as she (if she) picked up her dog? Don't know. But she got bit.

We could slice and dice it and find fault many ways. 
It's the dog that loses. As well as anyone or any animal harmed.
I just hate these stories. We all do.

Oh...and just to follow up on the "dogs home while owners work" issue. It may work if the dog's temperament is right for it, and if there is a LOT of meaningful, consistent relationship interactions, training, activity, exercise, socialization, etc, to go along with it. It does make it more difficult, and if the dog is more challenging to begin with, then it could be a recipe for disaster, as they many do get rather "independent" and/or stressed about it. I stand by that opinion. But again, it is just an opinion.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm sure if my dog was not supervised, he would go after another dog....and he is social, has great nerves, but he is a dog. What happens after that would depend on the dog....he would not indiscriminately bite a human.....but if he wasn't shown boundaries from a puppy he has the capability, but he still is a great dog.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I think it's an isolated incident with a dog who is not balanced and a home that was not smart. If my dog ran out after another dog, I can't guarantee he wouldn't bite, but I'd put a hefty wager on it. It has nothing to do with whether he has testicles or not, it's just not really his nature. I don't know too many dogs that don't bark when you walk by, if they are in the house, annoying yes, not a sign of poor training or poor breeding, dogs are like people, some talk a lot, some only talk when they have something to say. I always liked the quote off a training site I saw about "dogs just like to talk smack". 
Bite inhibition is not just trained in my opinion, it's inherent to the dog's psyche. Oz did a tiny bit of schutzhund in his early days, he got to bite a sleeve, but he knows the difference between that kind of sleeve and if dh puts his welding gloves on or I put my snowmobile mitts on and if he ever bit one of us in that situation it would be a one-way trip to the vet.
As to the dog running or rushing the door, I know for me, I don't pay my dogs to be Walmart greeters, so that I have trained out of them, but there are also precautions taken, like we have to cross the driveway to get to the fenced yard, so I walk them to the yard, the door does not open until they are sitting back from it, usually barely back from it, but still and if I'm away I close the inner door to the sunroom so they cannot get excited and rush the door. Or hear me talking to one of their friends and want out too, because there are neighborhood dogs they play with in their yard. I learned my lesson after Oz busted a window, now the sill was rotten and needed a filler strip, he just hit the glass just right and took the window out, then sulked and acted sorry for 2 days, I never yelled at him, just pointed to the kitchen LOL. 
Dogs who bite without discretion, do not get sympathy in my books, if you have one you think will, you better train the heck out of it and if you aren't smart enough to recognize warning signs of such a dog or care, or be proactive in your management of such a dog, you own the wrong breed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hmmm, I have an intact male and he's in my house while I'm at work. He's often outside with me off leash in the front yard and he's never ever charged out the front door or charged anyone (and he is protection trained and titled). He has a very high threshold for aggression. I mean, he walks in local parades with elementary school kids and I have little kids that are his junior handlers for dock diving.

The difference is he has worked hard to EARN his freedom in the house and my trust with him around others. He has been in training in multiple sports since he was 7 weeks old and he didn't earn his crate freedom until he was 4 years old. He has known boundaries, consistency in expectations, and even consequences (as well as rewards, of course) since he was 7 weeks old.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Is there any reason to believe that an intact male is inherently more human aggressive than a neutered male? That part doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JackandMattie said:


> Is there any reason to believe that an intact male is inherently more human aggressive than a neutered male? That part doesn't make any sense to me.


No.

Our dogs over the years....
Intact male Boxer - loved people
Neutered Collie - didn't like strangers in his territory and took extreme exception to a couple people
Spayed Boxer - will bite strangers
Intact female Boxer - Loves all people.
Spayed GSD - ignores most people, loves attention from some, took exception to a couple that were acting funny.

Personally, I think spay/neuter has very little to do with human aggression.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Myah's Mom said:


> You got me. I'll have to duck the eggs thrown my way, and that's okay.
> 
> But every adult male, intact, left alone all day that I have seen (so yes, it's my perspective, but aren't all posts?) has aggression issues, like a time bomb ready to go off.
> 
> Sad...weren't GSD's the original Seeing Eye Dog? What on earth happened over the years.


Strongly disagree. My intact male used to be alone all day when my husband and I worked and never showed a lick of aggression. Being an intact adult male and being alone during the day does not equal aggression.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Myah's Mom said:


> Sad, sad, sad. And so predictable. I could write the details, but the details don't really matter. The essential ingredients in our neighbor's dog produced a predictable outcome:
> 
> *Adult male GSD + testicles + alone all day indoors day after day = bit neighbor.*
> 
> ...


I have a male GSD + testicles + alone all day indoors + trained to bite... its never added up to that for us.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> I have a male GSD + testicles + alone all day indoors + trained to bite... its never added up to that for us.


Same here. Have had multiples of the same formula above (and more of the female version) and have never had this result. And can think of dozens more males in the same situation for which this would not be an issue.

IMO, the "trifecta" here is lack of proper socialization, lack of proper training and lack of proper management (including supervision around children). Quite likely a dose of improper temperament combined with some "mailman syndrome" leading to frustration aggression toward passersby as well.

It has nothing to do with the male being intact. And certainly nothing to do with him being home alone all day. I would saw that later bit applies to the vast majority of dogs in this country as most people do have to leave their home to work every day. 

The dog should be better trained, including threshold training so that it doesn't bolt out an open door, and never should be left in the supervision of a young child giving him the opportunity to bolt out a door.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Myah's Mom said:


> Okay, so I know I'm in left field...but I go back to my earlier point of GSDs being the original Seeing Eye Dogs. When did raising a GSD become such a challenge to prevent aggression? Genetics must have changed over time, due to bad breeding. I don't think the "shepherd", which should be gentle by nature, and only protective when there is a VERY clear threat, was supposed to have these issues.
> 
> Of course, now I'm speaking generally, and not of this incident.
> 
> Thoughts?


It became an issue *NOT* when aggression was bred in (it was always there) but when strong nerves were not a primary breeding goal. It seems to me through my observations and experiences that when indiscriminately breeding dogs, aggression seems to linger in the genetics more readily while nerve strength deteriorates rapidly without focused breeding for that.



Myah's Mom said:


> You got me. I'll have to duck the eggs thrown my way, and that's okay.
> 
> But every adult male, intact, left alone all day that I have seen (so yes, it's my perspective, but aren't all posts?) has aggression issues, like a time bomb ready to go off.
> 
> Sad...weren't GSD's the original Seeing Eye Dog? What on earth happened over the years.


I welcome you to come visit my home and see my adult intact male who has very high social and civil aggression (no aggression issues... those traits were/are selected for through breeding) and fully capable of seriously hurting someone, be one of the most stable dogs you could possibly come across.

Saturday he destroyed a brand new hidden sleeve (grrr... $115 for one 3 minute training session. oh well). Friday night he was playing "throw the stick" with a 4 year old and her little 2 year old sister whom we've never met before at a local restaurant patio, off lead... 

Its got nothing to do with testicles, or not being exercised into exhaustion day in and day out. Everything to do with character and nerves


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I used to believe that male dogs NEEDED to get neutered, or some deep, latent, inherent aggression and genetic dominance would take over and make them almost un-manageable. 

Then I got involved in Schutzhund - met dozens of intact male dogs, brought up to tap into their drives, and to bring out their aggression when required, who were the most social, more obedient, best behaved, respectful dogs I have ever seen. Completely sold me on the new concept that a dog is the result of breeding, inherited genetics, training and socialization, and weren't ruled by their testicles.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Completely sold me on the new concept that a dog is the result of breeding


If nothing else, I am quite sure we can, at a minimum, all agree on this statement.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Completely sold me on the new concept that a dog is the result of breeding, inherited genetics, training and socialization, and weren't ruled by their testicles.


So are men ! LOL. My sons have good breeding (genetics), lots of training, socialization and they aren't ruled by their testicles, thankfully. :wub:

Okay, so through all the eggs thrown my way (I'm totally ok with that), and with my own full perspective (not knee jerk reaction) on intact dogs (yes, I've met gentle, well trained intact dogs, too), I guess it comes down to:

Genetics
Environment

Good genetics do not completely overcome a poor environment
A good environment cannot completely overcome bad genetics

Okay...last question: if the genetics and/or environment issues are contributing to an aggressive dog, then why is neutering so strongly advocated by veterinarians?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Myah's Mom said:


> So are men ! LOL. My sons have good breeding (genetics), lots of training, socialization and they aren't ruled by their testicles, thankfully. :wub:
> 
> Okay, so through all the eggs thrown my way (I'm totally ok with that), and with my own full perspective (not knee jerk reaction) on intact dogs (yes, I've met gentle, well trained intact dogs, too), I guess it comes down to:
> 
> ...


You must understand that nothing makes a dog aggressive or makes a dog unaggressive... his aggression is inborn and an inherent part of him. It is poor genetics or poor environment (or both) that make him *use* his aggression inappropriately. Nothing can be done to make an aggressive dog no longer have that inborn instinct... not a happy home, not great training, not neutering, not socialization... you can only teach the dog what to do with the aggression. This is no different than making a dog not want to chase a ball... sure you can make him lay down and not chase it, but you did nothing to change what he wanted to do... you only taught him how to not indulge in his desire.

There is an underlying motivation to neuter if there is any valid reason or way to convince someone to do so... population control is a large part of it. Only certain types of aggression are helped through neutering. 

Great genetics can go a long way to help the dog overcome a poor environment, however any dog can be pushed to its breaking point.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

So, then perhaps neutering is strongly advocated because the dog with aggression issues shouldn't be bred. I agree.

But what about the testosterone - aggression link? Is there one? Now, I'm looking around to find out, curiously.

Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence: Scientific American




> Castration experiments demonstrate that testosterone is necessary for violence, but other research has shown that testosterone is not, on its own, sufficient. In this way, testosterone is less a perpetrator and more an accomplice—one that's sometimes not too far from the scene of the crime.
> For example: regardless of their gender, the most violent prisoners have higher levels of testosterone than their less violent peers. Yet scientists hypothesize that this violence is just one manifestation of the much more biologically and reproductively salient goal of dominance.
> 
> [Are] high-testosterone males more likely to become violent criminals, or does being a violent criminal raise a man's level of testosterone?
> ...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Myah's Mom said:


> So, then perhaps neutering is strongly advocated because the dog with aggression issues shouldn't be bred. I agree.
> 
> But what about the testosterone - aggression link? Is there one? Now, I'm looking around to find out, curiously.
> 
> Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence: Scientific American


You have to be careful about the phrase "aggression issues"... where one person might find "aggression issues" in a particular dog, another might find a great working prospect. There are many instincts, emotions, and factors at play and many forms of aggression are appropriate and correct.

Correct regarding testosterone. Humans who show aggression b/c they are jealous or angry and physically lash out go to jail. Humans who show aggression in the MMA ring, in a corporate board room, or in pursuit of a other life goals are idolized.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> You must understand that nothing makes a dog aggressive or makes a dog unaggressive


How about poking a dog with a stick?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

MadLab said:


> How about poking a dog with a stick?


You're missing the point. The dog was already what he was upstairs. If he learned through his life experience to tolerate stick poking then he won't show that aggression. If he did not, then he will show that aggression. If his nerves are a bit thin and cause him to make "poor decisions" then he may show that aggression at all sticks from that day forward whether used for poking or for fetching.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Myah's Mom said:


> So, then perhaps neutering is strongly advocated because the dog with aggression issues shouldn't be bred. I agree.
> 
> But what about the testosterone - aggression link? Is there one? Now, I'm looking around to find out, curiously.
> 
> Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence: Scientific American




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

Aggression is multi facited depending on the situation. Its different from violence which to me is an act of or form of aggression. You can be aggressive without commiting a violent act. I think it crosses that fine line depending on the situation and behavioural characteristics. Some men I think are genetically prone to voilence and some are taught. Same for a dog. To me dogs behaviours are not all that far off humans. Testosterone levels can escalate aggressive behaviour. I know, I'm living proof. I am naturaly aggressive, and have a voilent tendancy. I have learned to cope with it. But sometimes it comes out anyways. It depends on how I process a situation. 

But just because a dog has his testicles, doesn't necessarily mean he has high levels on testosterone. It's the situation that brings that into play.

JMO


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> You must understand that nothing makes a dog aggressive or makes a dog unaggressive... his aggression is inborn and an inherent part of him. It is poor genetics or poor environment (or both) that make him *use* his aggression inappropriately. Nothing can be done to make an aggressive dog no longer have that inborn instinct... not a happy home, not great training, not neutering, not socialization... you can only teach the dog what to do with the aggression. This is no different than making a dog not want to chase a ball... sure you can make him lay down and not chase it, but you did nothing to change what he wanted to do... you only taught him how to not indulge in his desire.


To me it sounds like your post is a general statement rather than a discussion about a particular dog.



> Nothing can be done to make an aggressive dog no longer have that inborn instinct... not a happy home, not great training, not neutering, not socialization.


Things do change and I think so do dogs. I had a human aggressive female and she did give up the chase and become friendly to people. She still has the inborn aggressive instinct as has any dog(predators after all) but her mind reacts so differently as when she was younger, that it's like a different dog. Did she just grow up? Did she get trained or what? Did her genetics change? Did her temperament change? 

I can't argue with 'inborn aggression' as you call it but I think A dogs expression of aggression can be manipulated by dog trainers and environment is a major influence. It is not all genetics.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

MadLab said:


> To me it sounds like your post is a general statement rather than a discussion about a particular dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like you carefully read my post 

The behavior changes over time of course. We know her genetics did not change... which means her environment changed *or* the nature of maturing allowed other instincts began to express and effect the aggressive display.

I agree 100% with your last paragraph. Training falls under "environment"... environment meaning "all things external to the animal"


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

laughed right out loud when i saw the question asked about why do vets so consistently recommend spay/neuter, lolol. 

and lies, i suspect that underneath all the great training you've invested in your boy...there is a dog with a very sound temperment to begin with. where you've taken him is just outstanding!

sorry for the thread hijack.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I think vets recommend neutering, because for 90-something% of pet owners it is the most responsible recommendation. Pet overpopulation, lack of training and socialization that allow DA conflicts that require medical intervention, etc., etc., etc. I don't really think it's because an intact male poses a threat to humans, rather that the majority of humans bring home a cute puppy with no concept of, and no intention of learning what is required, to train and manage an adolescent or adult dog 


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