# Questions regarding Club Life



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I would like to know more about the differences between German and the US Clubs. 

If you are a member of the Schutzhund Club. How many dogs are you allowed to work? 

Say you own three dogs. You want to do IPO Sport with one or two of them, with the third one just Obedience and FH. 

Would you be allowed to do that? Could you pull out all your dogs at the training sessions and work them individually as you want them to? At least in Obedience?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

In my current club someone has 3 dogs-2 of them are already trained and I think we are allowed to use the field on non-training days I like the field at work just as well and you can do tracking on your own in any club Some clubs would be fine-with working 3 dogs


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on the group. To me what makes the most sense is working one dog until it's titled, then working 2, *maybe* 3 dogs. I've seen some clubs that have this requirement and think it's fair. Nikon had several titles when I got Pan and now I work both dogs. Sometimes I bring my mutt Coke to socialize and do a few minutes of obedience but only in a corner and I don't require an actual "turn" (like I don't care if the TD is helping club dogs and not me). Some places I pay per dog, some I pay a flat fee.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

My problem is that I live in the middle of a waste land. Seriously, not even the AKC Club is running any kind of classes. They are only active during the summer time. There is absolutely NOTHING out here. 

Working my dogs alone is always an option but you only get so far. 

I honestly miss the German Clubs where you pay 20 Euros per year, and every single class is open to you. No matter if it is Agility, Obedience, SchH... everything is open and you can attend as you wish. If you don't want to, you don't have to be part of the Club Life, nobody makes you. As long as you are a paying member you can be there or not.

We need something in Watertown. There are Police K9 Handlers, Military K9 Handlers, I don't understand why there is absolutely NO working dog Club out here with all that military and police k9 handling...usually these guys work on AND off the job. Pretty much any police k9 handler I know from Germany is a Schutzhund Person on top of it and competes in their free time.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

In our club you are allowed to work only 1 dog until you have taken a raw dog to SchH/IPO 1. After that we do not have a limit as long as the person is making progress and actually training their dogs. We do have a waiver system for someone to work a second dog if they have not met the titling requirement, but one of the two must be close to titling. This has been allowed once. Training more than one dog at a time to title requires a tremendous amount of time and most people can not do this. Heck, many don't have the time or dedication to work one. I am currently working 4 dogs in tracking and 3 in IPO though Elena isn't doing any bitework. Vala comes out at times to work helpers and to get a bite. 

If we have the room, a person that hasn't titled a dog can track more than one dog. I (as TD) have been pretty lenient about that. 

You would not be able to work more than one dog in our club.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> I honestly miss the German Clubs where you pay 20 Euros per year, and every single class is open to you. No matter if it is Agility, Obedience, SchH... everything is open and you can attend as you wish. If you don't want to, you don't have to be part of the Club Life, nobody makes you. As long as you are a paying member you can be there or not.


Well at my regular training place (not Schutzhund club) they don't care how many dogs you have. You sign up per class, per dog. So I can have five dogs and sign each one up for a different class if I want to. For agility, obedience, rally, CGC, etc I personally can't realistically work two dogs in one class but they don't care if, say, I have a puppy in Beginners from 6-7pm and then work Nikon in Advanced Agility from 7-8pm or something like that. But most non-SchH training type places function more like a "class" than a "club". Some are clubs that have dues and discounts for club members but you almost always pay some amount per dog, per class. Usually Schutzhund is separate. A few facility house regular classes and a SchH club but normally the "membership" is separate.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

See, that is what I don't like. I want to make a decision for myself, whom I am going to work and whom I am not going to work as long as I'm a paying Club Member and dedicated to the Club. 

There is just way too many restricting rules over here and I just don't like how they interfere with my personal choices.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Well at my regular training place (not Schutzhund club) they don't care how many dogs you have. You sign up per class, per dog. So I can have five dogs and sign each one up for a different class if I want to. For agility, obedience, rally, CGC, etc I personally can't realistically work two dogs in one class but they don't care if, say, I have a puppy in Beginners from 6-7pm and then work Nikon in Advanced Agility from 7-8pm or something like that. But most non-SchH training type places function more like a "class" than a "club". Some are clubs that have dues and discounts for club members but you almost always pay some amount per dog, per class. Usually Schutzhund is separate. A few facility house regular classes and a SchH club but normally the "membership" is separate.


That is exactly what I'm missing out here. 

In Germany I had to switch between Zenzy and Yukon. First half I worked Yukon, then I quickly switched out the dogs. It was a hazzle but at least I got to work them each. 

Right now, Yukon is missing out big time. Last weekend he was sitting in the car for over 15 hours in the minus digits and only got out for five minutes to pee and poop. yeah, he's there but he's too young to not get anything to do at all. 

I don't want to title him in SchH but at least putting the BH on him shouldn't be an issue but you still need somebody to look and correct you. If you can't even do that in your own Club with your own people than I really don't want to be a member of that Club anyways.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on the club I guess. My personal preference is that within a Schutzhund club we have members committed to Schutzhund which means all three phases and not just obedience or just tracking or this or that with a few different dogs. We've had a few people try that and have been open to it in the past and none of those people lasted more than a month. It just wasn't worth their time, money, and travel and despite being obsessed about trying it at the beginning, it very quickly became clear that Schutzhund doesn't work with just one or two phases if that's your main dog and your main goal. We also give priority to the dogs closest to a trial. So, like in the fall before my trial, me and my friend would go first because we were doing the Schutzhund trial, then those doing their BHs would go, then we'd work our puppies, and then we'd do any retired, non-SchH, or guest dogs. The club shows the most support and commitment to those members that have shown the most commitment with their dogs, meaning training regularly in all three phases and either titling or actively working towards that goal (with a trial date planned, not just "I want to eventually title...."). I'm not saying I'm right, but with a limited number of clubs and many clubs struggling with cost, travel, lack of helperwork, this is often how it has to be.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje, what kind of clubs are you in besides Schutzhund? I'm just curious because I know there are a lot of different sorts of clubs out there and I'm trying to research them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Depends on the club I guess. My personal preference is that within a Schutzhund club we have members committed to Schutzhund which means all three phases and not just obedience or just tracking or this or that with a few different dogs. We've had a few people try that and have been open to it in the past and none of those people lasted more than a month. It just wasn't worth their time, money, and travel and despite being obsessed about trying it at the beginning, it very quickly became clear that Schutzhund doesn't work with just one or two phases if that's your main dog and your main goal. We also give priority to the dogs closest to a trial. So, like in the fall before my trial, me and my friend would go first because we were doing the Schutzhund trial, then those doing their BHs would go, then we'd work our puppies, and then we'd do any retired, non-SchH, or guest dogs. The club shows the most support and commitment to those members that have shown the most commitment with their dogs, meaning training regularly in all three phases and either titling or actively working towards that goal (with a trial date planned, not just "I want to eventually title...."). I'm not saying I'm right, but with a limited number of clubs and many clubs struggling with cost, travel, lack of helperwork, this is often how it has to be.


that is understandable. Having your main dog is pretty much what everybody has but you want to be at least able to take the other dogs with you and take them out to do a little obedience work on the side and possibly put a BH on them. 
I know quite a few people that only do FH and no more Schutzhund because they can't handle the dog in Schutzhund, yet they are still a member of the Schutzhund Clubs and use the land that the Club is allowed to use, for tracking. They still come out for the training, run the Club Kitchen, cook Coffee, do the Obedience part after the tracking in the morning and simply watch the protection part or handle the other dog they do all three phases with. 

Out here it almost seems like you have to be privileged and rich to do it in the first place. All that gas, club fees, seminars, paying the helpers...


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Out here it almost seems like you have to be privileged and rich to do it in the first place. All that gas, club fees, seminars, paying the helpers...


I'll admit that one of the reasons I'm interested in Schutzhund is because I have worked with animals my whole life (horses) and I can no longer afford to compete with them. After spending $800+ a month on a sport with a single horse, plus thousands upon thousands of dollars a year on supplies, riding gear, tack... Schutzhund almost seems like a poor people's sport. I just love the team work that goes into animal sports. I've never had an interest in people's sports.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

ladyfreckles said:


> I'll admit that one of the reasons I'm interested in Schutzhund is because I have worked with animals my whole life (horses) and I can no longer afford to compete with them. After spending $800+ a month on a sport with a single horse, plus thousands upon thousands of dollars a year on supplies, riding gear, tack... Schutzhund almost seems like a poor people's sport. I just love the team work that goes into animal sports. I've never had an interest in people's sports.


.... Just wait til you get into it.... then come back and tell us how much it cost

I could have imported a VERY nice titled dog for the money I have put into my Ari over the last two years! (and I used to ride combined training, my daughter rides dressage).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes I don't want to even think about it...its probably not so expensive if you live close to something but I always end up driving--I am doing AKC obedience in Syracuse right now and really enjoy the classes thats only roughly an hour from Watertown -if you are interested let me know


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> I'll admit that one of the reasons I'm interested in Schutzhund is because I have worked with animals my whole life (horses) and I can no longer afford to compete with them. After spending $800+ a month on a sport with a single horse, plus thousands upon thousands of dollars a year on supplies, riding gear, tack... Schutzhund almost seems like a poor people's sport. I just love the team work that goes into animal sports. I've never had an interest in people's sports.


Honestly, from what I see, it'd be cheaper to keep a horse for your own pleasure (without competing) than training a Schutzhund Dog. 

I am still trying to wrap my mind around all the costs just to be a Club Member and then all the restrictions that come with it. It's just not what I'm used to and it'll probably take another couple of years to get used to it. 

In the current situation it would be easier and cheaper to send the dog back to Germany and have the dog titled and gekoered over there than doing it yourself over here.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is not Germany. We have limited SchH clubs and limited resources (including helpers). Most of our rules are based on years of dealing with the realities of SchH in the USA. What you think is fair and what you want does not change these realities. 

In the summer on Sundays I start laying tracks by 7:30. I usually get in the house at 5 or sometimes 5:30 PM and I live here. Most of our members are working one dog. We do do two rounds of protection for many of the dogs. That is a very long day already. This is why we have the rules we do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> This is not Germany. We have limited SchH clubs and limited resources (including helpers). Most of our rules are based on years of dealing with the realities of SchH in the USA. What you think is fair and what you want does not change these realities.
> 
> In the summer on Sundays I start laying tracks by 7:30. I usually get in the house at 5 or sometimes 5:30 PM and I live here. Most of our members are working one dog. We do do two rounds of protection for many of the dogs. That is a very long day already. This is why we have the rules we do.


Yeah, I understand that. It's just not easy to wrap your mind around all of it and to understand the nature when you are used to something entirely different. It's pretty much a culture shock. 

You'd pretty much have difficulties to understand how a German can complain about paying 0.50 Cents or 2 Euros (depends on the club and if they even have any fee at all) that the helper works the dog in the protection phase, when you are used to pay such an amount of money to even work your dog in Schutzhund. 

No wonder the prices out here for a dog are so ridiculously high when it costs more that five thousand dollars to even get the dog titled.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

lhczth said:


> This is not Germany. We have limited SchH clubs and limited resources (including helpers). Most of our rules are based on years of dealing with the realities of SchH in the USA. What you think is fair and what you want does not change these realities.
> 
> In the summer on Sundays I start laying tracks by 7:30. I usually get in the house at 5 or sometimes 5:30 PM and I live here. Most of our members are working one dog. We do do two rounds of protection for many of the dogs. That is a very long day already. This is why we have the rules we do.


Why do you do two rounds of protection?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ladyfreckles said:


> Liesje, what kind of clubs are you in besides Schutzhund? I'm just curious because I know there are a lot of different sorts of clubs out there and I'm trying to research them.


SDA club (tracking, obedience, protection), flyball (I'm not officially on the team yet but train with a U-Fli team/club), and then a place that offers puppy, beginner, intermediate, CGC, all levels of agility, rally, and sometimes conformation classes. I get a discount rate at that last place because I do their web site and refer several people a year. Schutzhund is my top priority as far as where I spend my time and money and how all of my training is shaped. I don't want their to be conflict but so far my dogs have enjoyed half a dozen types of sports without problems.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have done both. SchH is cheaper even with multiple dogs. 

Yes, you could send the dog off to Germany for training IF you have someone you can trust to do the training. I never understood the draw to do that, though, but then I am a trainer at heart. Just handling dogs, owning them or breeding them wouldn't be enough for me. Also trained my own horses.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> No wonder the prices out here for a dog are so ridiculously high when it costs more that five thousand dollars to even get the dog titled.


I don't really look at SchH in terms of how much it costs to get titled. For me the enjoyment is in the training and the continuous development of the dog and my handling. So, it's worth it to me to pay $100/mo for the opportunity to train my dogs several times a month on good helpers and proper equipment with several pairs of eyes there for critiques. Lots of people pay $100/mo for hanging out with friends at the bar every weekend, or for their nice cell phone, or for working out with a personal trainer. I don't do any of those things, I like to spend my time and money working my dogs.

That said I don't think it cost me $5000 to title Nikon (excluding the price of the dog) and it took me over three years plus apparently I pay pretty high training fees ($100/mo compared to other clubs that are $200-$300/year). It'll cost me less to title Pan because I now know how to handle dogs better, Pan's training will progress faster, and I don't need as much face time with clubs to get it done (I can take a break for several months and not get behind).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Mrs. K. aren't the dog training clubs in Germany government subsidized or subsidized in some way? My club has very low membership ($300/year). We do not pay our helpers. Field maintenance, equipment cost and having trials is expensive. Clubs over here have no choice but to charge what they do. Many clubs are subsidized by the club member who owns the land, but not all clubs have a member who can do this (or has the land to do this). 

The hired sleeves and pay for play is a problem over here and has probably hurt SchH in this country more than anything else. 

Holland; not all of our members can make it here twice a week so this club has always done two rounds of protection on Sundays. I am able to train 3X per week (2X in the winter) so I pretty much only do one round with my dogs unless I feel it would benefit my dog to do another.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Yes, you could send the dog off to Germany for training IF you have someone you can trust to do the training. I never understood the draw to do that, though, but then I am a trainer at heart. Just handling dogs, owning them or breeding them wouldn't be enough for me. Also trained my own horses.


Since I simply can't do both, it's logistically and financially impossible to do SchH and SAR at the same time, I have no choice but to have her titled by somebody else unless I only want to do the AKC paper stuff. It's either SAR or SchH and I've come too far in SAR to give it up now. I've got to go through with the certification of Indra.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Since I simply can't do both, it's logistically and financially impossible to do SchH and SAR at the same time, I have no choice but to have her titled by somebody else unless I only want to do the AKC paper stuff. It's either SAR or SchH and I've come too far in SAR to give it up now. I've got to go through with the certification of Indra.


I think this would be true for anyone though. Is it common to do SAR and SchH "full time" at the same time? I had to make this choice. I can swing doing a lot of other things and Schutzund, but not SAR and Schutzhund (probably not SAR and much of anything else).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think this would be true for anyone though. Is it common to do SAR and SchH "full time" at the same time? I had to make this choice. I can swing doing a lot of other things and Schutzund, but not SAR and Schutzhund (probably not SAR and much of anything else).


In Germany, yes. It is very common to do both full-time just because you, most of the time, have the club and the team within the city-limits and if you are lucky, your team trains with the club itself. The search training is really not that bad. Indra is doing it for a year now and ready to certify. If we had a Club within our City Limits there would be absolutely no issue to do Schutzhund timewise on top of it. We've got a lot of free time to kill. If we had the possibility of training two times a week with a Schutzhund Club on top of SAR... that'd be awesome.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Mrs. K. aren't the dog training clubs in Germany government subsidized or subsidized in some way? My club has very low membership ($300/year). We do not pay our helpers. Field maintenance, equipment cost and having trials is expensive. Clubs over here have no choice but to charge what they do. Many clubs are subsidized by the club member who owns the land, but not all clubs have a member who can do this (or has the land to do this).
> 
> The hired sleeves and pay for play is a problem over here and has probably hurt SchH in this country more than anything else.
> 
> Holland; not all of our members can make it here twice a week so this club has always done two rounds of protection on Sundays. I am able to train 3X per week (2X in the winter) so I pretty much only do one round with my dogs unless I feel it would benefit my dog to do another.



A lot of Clubs have additional incomes because they have a restaurant on the Clubs premises. Most of them are so old that they own their premises, have income through the restaurant or pub, they might actually be subsidized on top of it, get donations, and a lot of stuff is pretty much paid out of pocket by the members. The maintenance is done by the members (i.e mowing lawns, plumbing etc.). 

The helpers don't charge money for the work. Some may charge 0.50 cents for a turn which goes into the coffee pot for the helper or maybe 2 euros per turn. Some don't charge anything. 
Some clubs don't even charge if you regularly go there to visit and train with them without being a member. Others charge 10 euros per day. 

It really depends on the club itself. When my helper worked with Yukon, he did not charge me anything at all and I wasn't even a Club member. I got him a nice bottle of wine as thank you. 

The other Club charged 20 Euros club fee per year. Depending on what class you were doing you had reduced prices and I think I paid 5 Euros for Agility, THS and Obedience. Nothing for Protection. 

When I traveled to Singen to meet Juergen Ritzi, he never charged me anything either because he said "You already pay enough for gas." and he took an entire day out of his time to give me a private lesson on how to build up a young dog all by myself. 

I guess my obedience skills are better than pet dog material, BH material I might even get through SchH 1 obedience if I stick to and do it all by myself without anyone correcting it but it ain't pretty that's for sure. Maybe in the lower to mid 80s, definitely NOT in the 90s.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

At my new club, there are multiple members who have two dogs, each working on their own Schutzhund titles. It is not a requirement at this club for the first dog to be titled before introducing the second, and I don't see that as a problem IMO. 

My dog really isn't the most *fantastic* Schutzhund dog, but he has fun doing it and I have fun learning. I plan on getting a real, _working _ puppy in the near future, and have no intentions of stopping my training with Aiden in the meantime. I needed a club that will be flexible as to the terms that I wish to train my dog(s) with, and I seem to have found it! So there definitely are more flexible clubs out there, but Schutzhund clubs in general obviously aren't super common, so finding the right one is tough.

I hope you find what you're looking for!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> At my new club, there are multiple members who have two dogs, each working on their own Schutzhund titles. It is not a requirement at this club for the first dog to be titled before introducing the second, and I don't see that as a problem IMO.
> 
> My dog really isn't the most *fantastic* Schutzhund dog, but he has fun doing it and I have fun learning. I plan on getting a real, _working _ puppy in the near future, and have no intentions of stopping my training with Aiden in the meantime. I needed a club that will be flexible as to the terms that I wish to train my dog(s) with, and I seem to have found it! So there definitely are more flexible clubs out there, but Schutzhund clubs in general obviously aren't super common, so finding the right one is tough.
> 
> I hope you find what you're looking for!


Which Club in Albany are you at? It's a shame that it's such a long drive down there. Google Map says three hours, realistically it's four-five hours.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Which Club in Albany are you at? It's a shame that it's such a long drive down there. Google Map says three hours, realistically it's four-five hours.


I'm at Liberty now. I live in the actual city of Albany, but right now training is in Glenmont, so that's about a half hour drive for me. I was used to a five minute drive, so I guess I'm spoiled, lol.  Where are you coming from? We have a few members who have to travel. It really stinks.  Especially since the weather in NY is so screwed up, you can never know what to expect!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> I'm at Liberty now. I live in the actual city of Albany, but right now training is in Glenmont, so that's about a half hour drive for me. I was used to a five minute drive, so I guess I'm spoiled, lol.  Where are you coming from? We have a few members who have to travel. It really stinks.  Especially since the weather in NY is so screwed up, you can never know what to expect!


Oh, I love the Liberty Club. That is the Club that had the Greg Doud Workshops but it'd be either Liberty or SAR. Both the same time is exhausting because it's just too far away. 
One time I had to drive home during a white out and it took me seven hours to get home. 

I'm in Watertown, NY.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Oh, I love the Liberty Club. That is the Club that had the Greg Doud Workshops but it'd be either Liberty or SAR. Both the same time is exhausting because it's just too far away.
> One time I had to drive home during a white out and it took me seven hours to get home.
> 
> I'm in Watertown, NY.


Yeah I love it there. I love the people and the fact that we have the opportunity to train with Greg.
I wouldn't survive a 7 hour drive at all. That's awful. I guess depending on the time of day/year, the drive could be _tolerable_. It really sucks that there's nothing closer to you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> Yeah I love it there. I love the people and the fact that we have the opportunity to train with Greg.
> I wouldn't survive a 7 hour drive at all. That's awful. I guess depending on the time of day/year, the drive could be _tolerable_. It really sucks that there's nothing closer to you.


Not SchH wise. There is one club that is just two hours from here but that one is expensive and doesn't accept new members, currently, plus I can't give them that kind of commitment they expect out of their members because of SAR. 

Yeah, I know, they've been awesome. Very welcoming and absolutely wonderful people. Yeah, that drive was horrible and afterwards I didn't dare to do it again. 

I could do it at least once a week during the week if there is any kind of training during the week. But if it is just an hour training and a three hour drive.. that just doesn't make any sense. If you drive that long you want to get something out of the day.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Not SchH wise. There is one club that is just two hours from here but that one is expensive and doesn't accept new members, currently, plus I can't give them that kind of commitment they expect out of their members because of SAR.
> 
> Yeah, I know, they've been awesome. Very welcoming and absolutely wonderful people. Yeah, that drive was horrible and afterwards I didn't dare to do it again.
> 
> I could do it at least once a week during the week if there is any kind of training during the week. But if it is just an hour training and a three hour drive.. that just doesn't make any sense. If you drive that long you want to get something out of the day.


Yeah I don't blame you. If you were considering coming once a week all the way down here, I'd say to come on Saturday/Sunday. Right now it's Sundays indoors due to the weather, but once we go back to the field it will be Saturdays. I get the most out of my training on the weekends because you can literally spend all day there. Wednesday nights are tough because it's after everyone gets out of work, and it's not like we can stay there all night! (Although I probably could. )


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> Yeah I don't blame you. If you were considering coming once a week all the way down here, I'd say to come on Saturday/Sunday. Right now it's Sundays indoors due to the weather, but once we go back to the field it will be Saturdays. I get the most out of my training on the weekends because you can literally spend all day there. Wednesday nights are tough because it's after everyone gets out of work, and it's not like we can stay there all night! (Although I probably could. )


Sundays would actually work. Saturdays I have to work around since the team has training on Saturdays most of the time but I am pretty sure that there is something that can be worked out on one end of the rope.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Sundays would actually work. Saturdays I have to work around since the team has training on Saturdays most of the time but I am pretty sure that there is something that can be worked out on one end of the rope.


I believe we are inside on Sundays until May-ish and then it switches to Saturdays. That'd be awesome if you could come!


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Why dont you start your own club. Find one or two people in your area and do tracking and obedience together and have fun. Protection isnt that important. If you have a good dog it will bark if someone comes to the door....which would be much more serious than many of the dogs on a sch field.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Welcome to America where everything is hours away! I'm part of an obedience/conformation GSD club (everything is based off AKC) and its about 30 minutes outside of Milwaukee. I live a bit closer to it so its only 20. The closest Schutzhund "club" and I use that term loosely is about an hour away and they only train in the warm months because they are all indoors and it is pretty much a volunteer organization. Fees are very low and so is the commitment.

I wish I had the time to train in Schutzhund, but I just can't make that commitment. Especially with the driving required. With land as expensive as it is around the bigger cities, its no wonder why dues are so expensive and clubs are so far outside the cities.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

lhczth said:


> In our club you are allowed to work only 1 dog until you have taken a raw dog to SchH/IPO 1.


So I can bring my new corgi to training and Sean will work her? I hear she is a BEAST! 



lhczth said:


> The hired sleeves and pay for play is a problem over here and has probably hurt SchH in this country more than anything else.


I totally agree with this. Some clubs charge more than others and I don't have a problem with that. But the one thing I can't stand is the "pay for play" setup where you are basically your helper's client.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jason L said:


> So I can bring my corgi to training and Sean will work her?
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with this. Some clubs charge more than others and I don't have a problem with that. The one thing I can't stand is the "pay for play" setup where you are basically your helper's client.


yeah, that is really what it comes down to. And a lot of people do pay for it which is why they can charge the kind of money they want to charge you.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, from what I see, it'd be cheaper to keep a horse for your own pleasure (without competing) than training a Schutzhund Dog.
> 
> I am still trying to wrap my mind around all the costs just to be a Club Member and then all the restrictions that come with it. It's just not what I'm used to and it'll probably take another couple of years to get used to it.
> 
> In the current situation it would be easier and cheaper to send the dog back to Germany and have the dog titled and gekoered over there than doing it yourself over here.


Boarding starts at $600/mo here, not including farrier fees. Even when I lived in an area where boarding was $300, it still ended up costing about $600/mo alone to care for him adequately. I estimated the costs of keeping a horse on my own property at the time and it would have been still about $400+/mo. 

I'm not saying that Schutzhund is cheap. But it's not a sport of kings either like horseback riding. I love working with animals, training them, seeing them progress and grow, and that is enough of a reward for me. The feeling you get when they finally start to understand is indescribable. It's amazing. Schutzhund is the affordable route for me.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> Boarding starts at $600/mo here, not including farrier fees. Even when I lived in an area where boarding was $300, it still ended up costing about $600/mo alone to care for him adequately. I estimated the costs of keeping a horse on my own property at the time and it would have been still about $400+/mo.
> 
> I'm not saying that Schutzhund is cheap. But it's not a sport of kings either like horseback riding. I love working with animals, training them, seeing them progress and grow, and that is enough of a reward for me. The feeling you get when they finally start to understand is indescribable. It's amazing. Schutzhund is the affordable route for me.



I know what you mean. If you know what Schutzhund and keeping a horse in Germany costs and then come here, in comparison, the horse is cheaper. Does that make sense? 

Boarding in Germany is 400 Euros a month, that is the high end and what my family charges and it's full service. Feeding, mucking the stables, two indoor riding arenas, horse-walker, paddocks, in the spring/summer time you can rent green pastures for your horse if you want to, great outdoor trails right in front of the door. 

And then you've got Schutzhund which all you pay is gas, possibly a couple of euros for your turn IF you pay that at all and a Club Fee of 20 euros per year and go from that to 400-650 a year including paying the helper, seminars etc. etc. etc. 

Of course a horse is more expensive in the long run. Just the vet itself is going to be more expensive. However, training a dog for a sport just shouldn't be THAT expensive. It's almost a luxury whereas in Germany you can live off of welfare or unemployment and still afford to do Schutzhund because all you do is to ride by bike or take your dog by train or bus... 
Over here... not so much....


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

In our club we limit new people (new to the sport, never titled a dog in anything) to 1 dog. Other members can work 2 or more, but not many work more than 1. We do offer obedience or tracking only memberships as well. So we have a couple of folks who have rescued working line GSDs or the like and just want to learn about tracking or the dog has a hip issue and can't do protection but the owner wants to keep the dog working. There are people who want to do AKC tracking titles, but there is not an AKC tracking club anywhere near here so they come here to do tracking and then can adjust the training to the title. I don't mind those memberships at all since they don't impede on bitework time which is precious as we all know, plus it is nice to have outside opinions on training and such. Keeps us fresh.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> It's almost a luxury whereas in Germany you can live off of welfare or unemployment and still afford to do Schutzhund


Honestly I consider most things above and beyond work, food, and a warm house to be a luxury! I consider it a privilege that I can own multiple dogs and maintain my standard of training and care. Sure I can gripe all day about having to drive 2.5-3 hours each way but it won't change things. Heck I had to drive 2.5 hours each way to the club that *I* pushed to start! Schutzhund is just not part of the culture here. Now you can find gyms for working out and lifting weights on every other corner...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Honestly I consider most things above and beyond work, food, and a warm house to be a luxury!


True. 




> In our club we limit new people (new to the sport, never titled a dog in anything) to 1 dog. Other members can work 2 or more, but not many work more than 1. We do offer obedience or tracking only memberships as well. So we have a couple of folks who have rescued working line GSDs or the like and just want to learn about tracking or the dog has a hip issue and can't do protection but the owner wants to keep the dog working. There are people who want to do AKC tracking titles, but there is not an AKC tracking club anywhere near here so they come here to do tracking and then can adjust the training to the title. I don't mind those memberships at all since they don't impede on bitework time which is precious as we all know, plus it is nice to have outside opinions on training and such. Keeps us fresh.


Where are you guys located again? :wub: (I know it's Georgia...sigh...)

Sounds exactly what I'd be looking for. Obedience and Tracking. I'd only like to work one dog in all three phases but at least to be able to do Obedience and/or Tracking with the other two. Obedience and Tracking NEVER hurts. Three dogs in all three phases, now that would be a little much.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Honestly I consider most things above and beyond work, food, and a warm house to be a luxury! I consider it a privilege that I can own multiple dogs and maintain my standard of training and care. Sure I can gripe all day about having to drive 2.5-3 hours each way but it won't change things. Heck I had to drive 2.5 hours each way to the club that *I* pushed to start! *Schutzhund is just not part of the culture here. Now you can find gyms for working out and lifting weights on every other corner...*


And a McDonalds, Starbucks, Subway and Dunkin Donuts right next to it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well this thread explains a lot...when talking to my Uncle in Germany who was involved in Schutzhund for many, many years.

He has a hard time wrapping his head around why I'm not further along _already_...and I have had a hard time figuring out how he could do so much (including being a judge) and have a full time job, kids and other responsiblities. 


...and the horses *sigh*, like LadyFreckles, it was just getting too expensive so I got out while I could. Though I miss the horses so much....



Mrs.K said:


> I know what you mean. If you know what Schutzhund and keeping a horse in Germany costs and then come here, in comparison, the horse is cheaper. Does that make sense?
> 
> Boarding in Germany is 400 Euros a month, that is the high end and what my family charges and it's full service. Feeding, mucking the stables, two indoor riding arenas, horse-walker, paddocks, in the spring/summer time you can rent green pastures for your horse if you want to, great outdoor trails right in front of the door.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's a lifestyle and most of the time, the entire family is involved and you spend every single minute out at the club. Or, if you've got your own kennel, most of the time you have an entire training field attached and your own private group you train with, every single day.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have trained with 2 other clubs and just this past year we started a schH club in our area.

We have a few experienced members, some who are experienced in other venues (obedience) and have help from surrounding clubs and people. We also have guidance from our parent organization here in Canada. 

We are small (12 people) but I actually prefer this because we can really concentrate on one dog at a time. Right now we are training as weather allows two times per week.

We have secured two properties, one is our main training grounds which we will be building permanent structures on come the spring while the other has the equipment ready for our use. Our tracking fields that we use on a regular basis change but we have access (our permanent land) to hay fields, grass land and dirt terrain. We are really lucky because we have an indoor arena to work in as well if it should rain or be too cold. 

Our club allows you to work 2 or more dogs, because we are small at this time and have the resources to allow so.

I have no plans to continue Stark in schutzhund after he receives his BH this spring. Right now I am working two dogs; Stark who is pretty much ready for his BH (just cleaning things up) and Zefra who is still doing a lot of foundation work (9 months old).

Our dues at this moment are sporadic, everyone involved is doing what they can to help make this club-a club, so we are not asking for an official "payment" at this time. If we need equipment or something, we all just split the cost, put the receipt in the book and everyone who put in some money signs the receipt. Come this spring, once we have our permanent blinds/A-frame/jump up, then we can relax a little and come up with something.

I will tell you that it takes A LOT from ALL members to start and run a club proficiently. We are all trying to make this work and so far it is coming along but not without a lot of time, money and patience. Passion is our driving force right now. We will be a registered club by the end of the summer we believe which is something we never thought we could do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by lhczth
> The hired sleeves and pay for play is a problem over here and has probably hurt SchH in this country more than anything else.





> I totally agree with this. Some clubs charge more than others and I don't have a problem with that. But the one thing I can't stand is the "pay for play" setup where you are basically your helper's client.


Sometimes there is no other option...clubs are at their limit and* good* helpers are far and few between. I like the club atmosphere much better than a drop-in pay to play. I want to support and get support from my 'club' members, and do all 3 phases when we train, not just go there for obedience and protection. 
On my side of the state there is one club, I'd rather drive 2+ hours to the other side of the state and pay to train than train there


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The way I see it is that I have no interest in learning helperwork so why should I expect anyone else to step up and offer it to me? I will pay what I think it's worth since I certainly don't have any interest in doing it myself or for other people. There are people who have offered it to me who I would allow near my dogs if THEY paid ME to work my dogs, and then there are people I will drive to see on occasion and happily leave money even if it's not required. If I don't think it's worth it, I won't do it. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head making them use this helper or that club. If someone I like is willing to spend $50 on gas to meet me and work my dogs I'll give them $20, sure. I've never felt like a client. If I don't think the helperwork is worth the money I will say so and often it's the helper/club that comes back wanting to negotiate. I pay them to do what I want when I want it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If I don't think the helperwork is worth it, I wouldn't let my dog be worked. Better no work than something that could get dog or helper harmed. I don't mind paying for a good helper, I think it is totally fair to pay for their expertise and body breaking. I've never been somewhere where fees are negotiable, tips yes....but the cost is usually black and white going in. 
And when I did tip, I always wondered if my dog was getting worked as well as others that may tip more? I usually paid $25 a session or 30 if we did two rounds. I hoped that was fair and not an insult. This was at a club I was a member of, helper was paid in tips. I'd rather have it black and white. This is the club that I won't go back to, even though it is closest to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, I mean, nobody WANTS to pay for it, but I'm fine paying a good helper rather than doing nothing. Also, it's different with one helper working every single dog multiple rounds than being in a club with multiple helpers sharing the load. At the very least I want to make sure that the equipment is in good shape, not just the protection stuff but I've taken home equipment too (like dowells, dumbbells, different collards). Paying a club fee AND paying for every session...to me that's too much. I draw the line there.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> And a McDonalds, Starbucks, Subway and Dunkin Donuts right next to it.


Starbucks is a pre-requisite....

It is definitely different than in Europe. Even our club in Budapest is 45 minutes away, past the Pest side. We are on the Buda side.

The clubs here are sparse. Good helperwork is lacking. Good, athletic and in shape helpers is lacking. Some people thinking that putting on a sleeve equates to experience and can charge or call themselves a teaching helper.

Location, insurance and equipment adds up. I wonder how many clubs list out the budget so that the members know what it costs for all? It can big high. Plus, trials, shows, etc.....


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Sue, we do that.

We list exactly where the money is spent and plan too continue to do so.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Our treasurer gives all of the members a break down of costs at our yearly meeting each year. I know a few have been shocked at the cost of having a porta-potty. Trials really add up especially for small clubs that want to keep the entry fees reasonable. Insurance is terrible. Our club also has the expense of the gas to keep the tracking and trial fields mowed though I cover all of the repairs and maintenance.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I absolutely hate the insurance costs out here. It's high fees for unreasonable coverage.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We're super lucky that a police/fire dept lets us use their property (including the indoor bathroom). They stopped mowing the field but two of our members had tractors and were able to do it. We all chipped in for gas. We never did become a "real" club because I don't know if we could handle the expense of a trial. Instead we all committed to trialing in a "friendly" club's trial to ensure they had enough entries (they nearly max'd out both days). When I see how much work goes into a trial I'm fine with never having a "home" advantage! We're heading down to Kentucky for our next trial...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Liesje said:


> We never did become a "real" club because I don't know if we could handle the expense of a trial.


That's one of the reasons our club chose to be a DVG club, no requisite trials. If we get to the point we are ready to do one, then we can, but we don't have to in order to maintain club status.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank God there are people/clubs willing to do the work, deal with the hassles, spend the money, and put on trials or no one would be titling their dogs.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Believe me, I have been trial secretary plenty of times and have stayed up nights getting last minute entries ready for judges, or scoured the countryside looking for suitable tracking fields, etc. When we started this club, my husband and I were the only experienced people in the club. We knew it would be a few years before our membership was ready or able to do a trial. We just held a regional helper certification 2 weeks ago. It was a great test run for the members and they really enjoyed it, but it was a ton of work. 
Luckily there are 6 other clubs in our area (within a 2 hour drive) and most of them try to hold a trial every year, so we will leave the trials to them until we see a need for another one in our area. 
We actually checked the schedule for spring and the 3 or 4 dates that our club members felt would work already had a trial scheduled so we will skip it for now I guess.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Liesje said:


> We're super lucky that a police/fire dept lets us use their property (including the indoor bathroom). They stopped mowing the field but two of our members had tractors and were able to do it. We all chipped in for gas. We never did become a "real" club because I don't know if we could handle the expense of a trial. Instead we all committed to trialing in a "friendly" club's trial to ensure they had enough entries (they nearly max'd out both days). When I see how much work goes into a trial I'm fine with never having a "home" advantage! We're heading down to Kentucky for our next trial...


 


 Just trying to fit in with work, family, training, trialing……. J

Have 3 ADs that need to be done this winter/spring. So, have the trial and show at Jeff/Pat’s, plus checking into Cumberland Valley if they will be doing an AD. If not, have to travel a few hours for ADs. Trying to get done prior to June.


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