# Ohio has a new law, got a letter today



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a kennel license. So I got a letter about the new law, from the Department of Agriculture. I knew about it, the new law. But now they want me to fill out a survey. 

At this point it is for high volume breeders and I am not affected by it, until they change the numbers. But at this point it is whelping 9 litters and selling 60 puppies or adult dogs.

Anyhow, it looks like they are sending letters, requiring surveys from everyone with a kennel license in Ohio. It is funny how we voluntarily declare our business to the government, and no one says boo about it. 

And I wonder what things people will do to stay below the magic 60 number, euthanize puppies over 59, or maybe sell some with papers and sell to those who do not care about papers under the table so to speak. Or give them away with the purchase of the great $1500 crate.


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## Kingsj (Sep 17, 2011)

As an OH resident I'm very disappointed to hear this. As much as I resent people breeding to make a quick buck, I feel it is the individual's, and not the gov'ts, place to prevent it. 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Are they trying to control puppy mills? The Amish? 

The magic number is scary, as you point out. 

Legislators are notorious for poor legal drafting. Uninformed 


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Kingsj said:


> As an OH resident I'm very disappointed to hear this. As much as I resent people breeding to make a quick buck, I feel it is the individual's, and not the gov'ts, place to prevent it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree to a point. I feel however something has to be done to controL the mass production of puppys in this state/country. Especially with our beloved breed!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think it's great that they are trying to take action to regulate millers. 60 puppies a year is a lot. If an average litter is 7 or 9 pups, that is about 7 litters. That's a lot of litters. 

Your perspective might change if you spent a lot of time inside Ohio dog pounds...


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I think it's great that they are trying to take action to regulate millers. 60 puppies a year is a lot. If an average litter is 7 or 9 pups, that is about 7 litters. That's a lot of litters.
> 
> Your perspective might change if you spent a lot of time inside Ohio dog pounds...


Right on.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> I agree to a point. I feel however something has to be done to controL the mass production of puppys in this state/country. Especially with our beloved breed!!!


Its this kind of thinking that actually comes down to the real moral problem... to the very foundation of our great country and all of her great states. SOMETHING has to be done... SOMETHING (and people will take just about anything even if its just a bandaid they believe will hold the problem at bay just a little bit longer). Its not you and me and everyone else making the right choice and spending our weekends picketing those Amish farmers we know are puppy mills, no... we have to have a law that controls everyone. Cant control just the bad because then that would be profiling or prejudiced and our great nation doesnt work like that, so everyone gets to be punished because for a small few (which I will add cause the biggest problem). It isnt right.

I am not attacking you personally, please dont take it that way as it isnt intended for only you. A great MANY people say these things and its just wrong. And I feel everyone should know it.

Personal morality is what controls people not laws. Laws do not protect the innocent they protect the guilty.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

So you are an anarchist then? :crazy:

Many of us who support this type of legislation have spent a lot of time going into shelters and seeing the end result of those puppy mills. Puppy mills are big business. There is not a lot of morality going around in big business.

Off to walk my belgian malinois who was dumped out in the country in Indiana, right next to Cincinnati...the guy who found him didn't take him to the shelter because he knew Rafi would be euthanized (because he was in very bad shape after living on his own).


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> So you are an anarchist then? :crazy:
> 
> Many of us who support this type of legislation have spent a lot of time going into shelters and seeing the end result of those puppy mills. Puppy mills are big business. There is not a lot of morality going around in big business.


No its not an anarchist, laws do have a place. And I will be honest the problem we currently have is way bigger than I can even think about. However they are soon enough going to realize that the magic number of 60 is just to high and then it becomes 1 and then it becomes none and they zone the breeds and only people with special 180$ annual cards can have any breeds taller than 12 inches (I think on the height I could be wrong) (thats China in case you wonder) MONEY is what it comes down to. They will pay fines and fees etc etc. These governments... not the ones that used to be but the current governments, the way they are run now, they arent actually going to do anything to people who breed more. There will be a fee or extra charge, in fact they will hope that people do this so the state gets more money. Its a new cash cow. People use the law because they really want it to work. Heck I really want this law to work, but its not going to stop anyone who doesnt want to be stopped I am sorry to say. 

Its horrible I know it is. But its also the truth.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I think 60 dogs is too low for a puppy mill, if that was supposed to be the target. I was just asking. Carmen?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

to a puppy mill, it is just the cost of doing business. They will write off any extra fees, licenses or upgrades off on their taxes and go on. It won't drop the number of puppy mill dogs produced. 
So then the number will drop. Eventually it will get to a number that affects even the hobby breeders. They CAN'T write off the expense on their taxes so they might have to stop breeding. (you can only write off expenses if you make a certain amount of profit. The occasional litter isn't going to qualify you to a tax write off, it's considered a hobby). So who will be left breeding dogs in OH? Yup, the puppy mills. Instead of stopping them, you just removed all of the competition.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think anyone breeding 9 litters a year and having 60+ puppies SHOULD be regulated.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

As much as I abhor puppy mills, I find this law very disturbing. It's the camel's nose under the tent. Instead of enforcing laws that are currently on the books and prosecuting the violators to the fullest extent, we make more laws. We hear about how puppy mill bitches are kept in horrible conditions, then why don't animal cruelty laws apply? Further, the only people that these laws will affect are those that are already responsible breeders and already follow the law. Those that don't care about the welfare of the animal and only want to make money will find a way around the law. 

We see this all the time with government regulation. Start out with a law that a majority of the people agree to, then slowly tweak the law until you fully regulate and possibly ban the item (which was the original goal). In two years it could be decided that the magic number is 55, then 50, eventually it gets to a point where even Selzer is violating the law. I'm 100% in favor of finding a way to stop puppy mills, but more over-broad regulations are not the answer.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Just a bit of info on Ohio's Department of Agriculture. My friend runs a small farm and he got a call from them asking if their board of trustees could tour his farm. He said sure but why are you doing the tour? There answer was "Most of our board members and trustees dont know much about farming. So we want to take them around to some farms and show them what its about."


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Okin said:


> Just a bit of info on Ohio's Department of Agriculture. My friend runs a small farm and he got a call from them asking if their board of trustees could tour his farm. He said sure but why are you doing the tour? There answer was "Most of our board members and trustees dont know much about farming. So we want to take them around to some farms and show them what its about."


OMG only in Ohio would a person who cant tell corn from wheat or a pig from a cow be on the ag board.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> OMG only in Ohio would a person who cant tell corn from wheat or a pig from a cow be on the ag board.


I doubt it is that unusual. I would bet that the majority are bureaucrats, not ag people. Which makes it even more concerning when they are making laws and decisions about things of which they have no knowledge or experience.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> to a puppy mill, it is just the cost of doing business. They will write off any extra fees, licenses or upgrades off on their taxes and go on. It won't drop the number of puppy mill dogs produced.
> So then the number will drop. Eventually it will get to a number that affects even the hobby breeders. They CAN'T write off the expense on their taxes so they might have to stop breeding. (you can only write off expenses if you make a certain amount of profit. The occasional litter isn't going to qualify you to a tax write off, it's considered a hobby). So who will be left breeding dogs in OH? Yup, the puppy mills. Instead of stopping them, you just removed all of the competition.


Got to agree w/ this. I fear that a breeder Im researching may not be around by the time I'm ready for my next pup. Selzer I understand your point re voluntarily going through registering and obtaining a kenel license. I watch alot of Ohio breeders at the local AKC show these folks arent in it for the money and meeting all the dogs not just GSDs you see that the money is going back into the dogs.Not saying there arent bad breeders here but I think the legislation will greatly reduce the ability to find a breeder close to home who you can develop a working relationship w/ . That is incredibly scary. Do I want puppy mills stopped? Good Lord yes but the way to start, as stated by someone else, is enforce the rules we all ready have on the books. BTW I have three rescues so I do understand the concept of homeless dogs.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> I doubt it is that unusual. I would bet that the majority are bureaucrats, not ag people. Which makes it even more concerning when they are making laws and decisions about things of which they have no knowledge or experience.


Chris I spoent my early childhood on dairy farm and im the first generation to not be a farmer.I remember my grandparents and my Dad talking about changing state regulations andf how it affected their ability to continue farming. I find that many states due to the political favors or the spoils of war system use cabinet positions and board positions to reward businesses and other folks. Its that way in every state I realize. My problem is in agriculture the subject or work is the way the world is fed. The people who make the regs and draft the laws that our illlustrious legislators present are the folks on the board who unfortunately turn to those who draft rules or who write proposals that benefit their business or their ideology rather then doing what is best ,effective and safe. Perhaps if farmers were mixed w/ somer professionals who understand agriculture you might actually achieve some parity between protecting the earth and living creatures and the business of feeding and providing animals for the public.


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## lindsay1126 (May 18, 2013)

Narny said:


> Personal morality is what controls people not laws. Laws do not protect the innocent they protect the guilty.


Well said! People with NO morals will never stop breaking the law, especially when money is envolved, where as the law abiding citizen will be the one who follows the law to a T to make sure they are in compliance.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I think it's great that they are trying to take action to regulate millers. 60 puppies a year is a lot. If an average litter is 7 or 9 pups, that is about 7 litters. That's a lot of litters.
> 
> Your perspective might change if you spent a lot of time inside Ohio dog pounds...


Ditto



JakodaCD OA said:


> I think anyone breeding 9 litters a year and having 60+ puppies SHOULD be regulated.


Ditto, again 

More about the law in question...


“The new law requires the licensure and annual inspection of high volume breeders that sell 60 dogs or produce at least nine litters in a single calendar year. The law also creates a Commercial Dog Breeding Advisory Board to assist the director of the Ohio Department of Agriculture in developing standards, including rules on housing, nutrition, exercise, waste management, grooming, whelping and other general care standards." 

"Additionally, the law prohibits anyone convicted of animal cruelty in the last 20 years from obtaining a license – a provision designed to stop the influx into Ohio of puppy mill operators who have been forced to close their operations in other states due to animal cruelty charges."

“For too many years, the state of Ohio has been known as a haven for low-quality, high-volume breeders that we call ‘puppy mills.’ This is kind of careless treatment of animals is not a reputation that should be attached to our state,” said Ohio Sen. Jim Hughes, R-Columbus. “This legislation has been in the works for nearly a decade and I am proud of the interested parties for their willingness to work together and am grateful to my colleagues in the legislature for taking the final steps to bring this new law to fruition.”

"Ohio is home to 174 federally-licensed dog breeders and brokers – fifth most in the nation – and to at least another 1,000 additional high volume dog breeders, all of whom will be subject to licensure and inspection under the new state law."

"Puppy mills are large-scale commercial dog breeding operations that mass-produce puppies for sale through pet stores, over the Internet and directly to the public. Focused solely on making a profit, these facilities keep dogs in crowded, filthy conditions where they receive little or no socialization, affection or exercise. Breeding dogs are forced to live their entire lives in small cages with no opportunity for exercise or social contact."

Source: Excerpted from article titled, _"The HSUS Applauds Ohio Governor and Lawmakers for Passing Law to Crack Down on Puppy Mills: New law provides protection for dogs in one of the country’s top ten puppy producing states"_


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Despite what one feels towards the handling of our government and its policies ,*Its Ludicrous to say Morality not laws control people. * If anyhthing its a little of both. IMHO we dont need more laws on top of laws. We do need this one and I suggest people do some research on whats actually in the law. It is incredibly dense to form an opinion with-out being educated to the slightest.

At this point all we can do is hope they enforce the new Law.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> *Its Ludicrous to say Morality not laws control people. *


I am afraid your logic does not compute  ... the morality of the citizens of Ohio is what MADE this law lol. Morality does in fact control people even to the point of the government creating laws because of it. Morality is the reason we tell people not to buy dogs from a byb. We dont want to support their practices. That is a PERFECT example of morality NOT LAWS controlling people.

All laws do is tell people what they can not do. Everything else is supposed to be left wide open.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion specific to dog related legislation. General political discussion is not allowed per the board rules so while it can be difficult to do, everyone needs to make sure to keep their comments limited to the topic at hand and not broaden it to politics in general.

Thanks,
Admin


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Yep sorry about that back to topic. Hope the law actually does some good.

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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sort of curious. Does anyone know how many litters need to be produced/puppies need to be sold for puppy mills to profit? 

If information we have on that subject is heresay, guesstimations, or anything other than what's based on statistics, facts, and records from PUPPY MILLS (because a puppy mill's record books will be far different than a hobby breeder's), then what kind of value do the numbers that the law that's been put into place hold? 

Say a puppy mill needs to have 1,200 litters per year, or sell 15,000 puppies in order to make a profit. 
The law could reduce the numbers to something like 200 litters/3,000 puppies per year to hopefully hurt the mills/put them out of business, but not the hobby breeders. 

Does that make sense?


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Narny said:


> I am afraid your logic does not compute  ... the morality of the citizens of Ohio is what MADE this law lol. Morality does in fact control people even to the point of the government creating laws because of it. Morality is the reason we tell people not to buy dogs from a byb. We dont want to support their practices. That is a PERFECT example of morality NOT LAWS controlling people.
> 
> All laws do is tell people what they can not do. Everything else is supposed to be left wide open.


 Wrong ....!! The reason we are having this discussion is because people are not listening yet. They are still buying from BYB, Pet stores, and Puppy Mills Duh.! So wheres the control with no law... 
My Logic does compute. Have you ever seen a puppy mill or volunteered at a shelter? A pet store is heaven compared to a puppy mill. I detest pet stores. 

We have to come up with a way to stop these idiots putting out mass numbers of every breed they can get there hands on. By the way do YOU live in this great state.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

According to the ASPCA there are normally between 2000 and 3000 LICENSED breeders but that there are many more that dont have to be licensed so they believe there are upwards of 10000 puppy mills annually. 

500,000 dogs are sold just in pet stores alone so if we use those numbers... 500,000 puppies divided by 10000 breeders , thats only 50 dogs per breeder annually... this law will have little to no effect at that rate.

Now if the numbers for Ohio are more than the nations average then it "might" effect them to some degree. If its more like 3000 (in ohio) then its 500,000 (just in pet stores mind you) divided by 3000 which would be about 166 puppies annually. 

That would be a dent but at what cost? What is the ramifications if they dont abide by the law?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Wrong ....!! The reason we are having this discussion is because people are not listening yet. They are still buying from BYB, Pet stores, and Puppy Mills Duh.! So wheres the control with no law...
> My Logic does compute. Have you ever seen a puppy mill or volunteered at a shelter? A pet store is heaven compared to a puppy mill. I detest pet stores.
> 
> We have to come up with a way to stop these idiots putting out mass numbers of every breed they can get there hands on. By the way do YOU live in this great state.


Honestly, that's not a morality issue. That's an education issue. 

A lot of people don't KNOW that those cute little puppies in the window came from puppy mills. A lot of people don't KNOW that BYBs are detrimental to breeds. A lot of people don't KNOW that buying from a BYB is why the shelters are filling up. 
People think, "Well, I'll take care of my dog for its whole life!"

I'll use Ozzy as an example. Yeah, he came from a BYB, I'll admit. I don't regret getting him - not one bit. I do regret giving that woman a single dime, though. 
_I know he'll be with me for the rest of his life._ THIS is the part people think about when they get a puppy from a BYB. 

They don't consider the fact that the money they're paying for the puppy as supporting the BYB to continue breeding to sell to people who treat their dogs like items that can be thrown away when they get bored of them, which is why shelters are full.

So I'll stick with my original statement. It's an *education *issue, not a morality issue.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Wrong ....!! The reason we are having this discussion is because people are not listening yet. They are still buying from BYB, Pet stores, and Puppy Mills Duh.! So wheres the control with no law...
> My Logic does compute. Have you ever seen a puppy mill or volunteered at a shelter? A pet store is heaven compared to a puppy mill. I detest pet stores.
> 
> We have to come up with a way to stop these idiots putting out mass numbers of every breed they can get there hands on. By the way do YOU live in this great state.



So anyway...


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Narny said:


> According to the ASPCA there are normally between 2000 and 3000 LICENSED breeders but that there are many more that dont have to be licensed so they *believe *there are upwords of 10000 puppy mills annually.
> 
> 500,000 dogs are *sold just in pet stores alone *so if we use those numbers... 500,000 puppies divided by 10000 breeders , thats only 50 dogs per breeder annually... this law will have little to no effect at that rate.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm talking about. It's all guesstimations - no real, hard facts. How can people make laws based on guesses?? 

This isn't meant to be hostile toward you at all. I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that people are comfortable passing laws based on something that's so unproven....


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Honestly, that's not a morality issue. That's an education issue.
> 
> A lot of people don't KNOW that those cute little puppies in the window came from puppy mills. A lot of people don't KNOW that BYBs are detrimental to breeds. A lot of people don't KNOW that buying from a BYB is why the shelters are filling up.
> People think, "Well, I'll take care of my dog for its whole life!"
> ...


I will 100% agree with this except to add that after education we make the moral decision NOT to buy from them. I had no idea when I joined here that there was such a big problem (other than pet population that is) My only reason for looking was because I didnt have any experience with GSD's and I was trying to be careful because of my children. I needed and KNEW I needed a dog with a good temperament.

My husband fought me all the way until there were a few "rescued/shelter dog" attacks. After that he was completely ok with spending $$$$ so we could stack the odds in our favor. I still could have thought, hey I will train it out of them and bought off of craigslist.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> This is what I'm talking about. It's all guesstimations - no real, hard facts. How can people make laws based on guesses??
> 
> This isn't meant to be hostile toward you at all. I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that people are comfortable passing laws based on something that's so unproven....


No worries I dont think you are being hostile here. And, youre right. Just from one little search 4 differnet websites told me 4 different totals. 7000 4000 3000 and 10000. I dont know how they do that exactly.


EDIT... actually i think they can come up with the numbers by saying 500,000 go into pet stores and more than 5 million poor dogs end up in shelters annually.. that tells me there is a MUCH bigger problem somewhere that we cant see. Kind of like a black hole. We cant see them BUT we can see what happens around them so thats how we know they are there. Does that make sense?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well, these numbers are from a friend of mine who I consider a not-good breeder.

She bought a stud from a dog auction - $200
She bought a bitch from the same auction - $400
Bought a puppy bitch - $250

The dogs get basic food needs. vet care only as needed - rabies shots at the vet and all other shots at home and purchased at the the local feed store at $5 a vial. Any other vet care is a medical emergency type issue. The main puppy kennel is in the basement of the home so no real additional costs for electricity/water/upkeep

Most litters have 3-4 puppies. Pups sell for $1500-$5000 each (they sell yorkies, shorkies, shih-tzus) Do the math yourself....


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Where in Gods name do they auction dogs ?

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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Narny said:


> Where in Gods name do they auction dogs ?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well I cant speak for the whole country, but in Ohio There are on top of puppy mills hundreds if not thousands of flea markets/ swap meets. Sometimes these places have auctions. Then there are invite only auctions and things of that nature. I remeber the name of this documetary From HBO about a few places in Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, Ohio, and PA. The Name of the first is Dealing Dogs and another is Maddona of the Mills. If you watch do so with caution.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

puppy mills clear out their old stock, bring in new stock, get rid of surplus at dog auctions.

as an example: Heartland Sales


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The law will not stop puppy mills. The puppy millers have hundreds of tricks to stay below the radar. For example, an Amish community might sell 60 litters in a year. They were there when our club was talking to the state senator about this a couple of years ago -- it has been in the making for a long time. They (the millers) are just figuring out what they will need to do to either stay under the radar, like using 10 people to register the 60 litters. That keeps it down to 6 litters each, the dogs may all live exactly the same and be cared for exactly the same. 

It does not make it against the law to have more puppies than that, just if you do sell more puppies than that, you will be inspected and will have to meet certain guidelines of care, some of which they really cannot enforce, like how much exercise each dog gets each day. 

The wording was also very specific -- no bear wire, so chain link fencing would not be ok. We would have to use the rubber over the chain link. That's crazy. Dogs can chew on that and ingest it. Also the kennel size for dogs the size of GSDs have to be 4'x16'. My 10'x15' kennels are not sufficient, even though they have more room. 

And, in this country we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But this makes you buy a bond dependent on how many dogs you have, in case the state decides to steal your dogs from you. I think that is really bad. I mean, you do not have buy a bond when you have kids just in case one of them commits some vandalism. You do not have to buy a bond in case your dog bites someone, and the state decides that they should take your dog for 2-4 weeks. 

Another thing in the legislation is that ALL dogs, except those kept confined in a registered dog kennel, must wear a collar and tags AT ALL TIMES. Any dog not wearing a collar and license can be siezed and sold or euthanized. I think I am ok because my dogs are in a registered dog kennel. I have licenses for them all, but I don't wear their collars except if I take them off the property.

This law does effect more than just puppy millers. In fact the puppy millers will just increase the cost. It will do NOTHING about the BYBs. BYBs rarely have 9 or more litters/60+ dogs. 

Other than the collar garbage that I have to look up in the final printing of the law, it won't effect me, not now. But now that there is a law, it is just a matter of time before they pull the numbers down to include the larger hobby breeders, etc. Or they will change it to say anyone with x number of dogs. 

The more money that breeders have to pay out on things that do not benefit the dogs, the less money they will have to spend on their dogs. It does not mean that they will stop breeding necessarily, but if they have to pay penalties for crimes they MAY commit at some point down the line, they will have less money to spend on doing the things that we want breeders to do, health screenings, trials and shows. Most of the high volume breeders aren't doing these things, but when they lower the numbers to include the small scale breeders, those breeders will have to make tough choices.

And lastly, the people of Ohio did not make this law. The people they elected did. Only a tiny fraction of the population allowed the standing on dog-related legislation to effect their votes. The people who voted on this bill did so because HSUS has LOTS of money that they steal from people who think they are are paying for starving, abused, neglected animals. They pay for lobbyists to work on the congressmen until they agree to back these stupid bills. 

Watch and see how it does not affect the number of animals dying in Ohio's shelters.


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