# Civil vs. Social



## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

So I've been wondering something for a while. I have an understanding of the word "civil". To me, it means: To be able to get along in a social group, including with individuals you don't know or particularly like.

However, the more I read on this thread, and the more I read on other breeder's websites, the more I feel that this term means something different when it comes to the GSD, and it would seem that a dog is EITHER civil or social, but not both. 

*So I would like to ask members:*

How would you define Civil and Social as it relates to the GSD?

Is it possible to have qualities of both, or is it truly one or the other, as in one side of a coin or the other? 

Which do you prefer to see/experience in a GSD, and why?


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Civil when describing a GSD means willing to bite for real, without equipment (bite sleeve)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good old thread where Anne (Vandal) was commenting
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html

Very good layman definition
"Civil aggression is the dog's inherent level of suspicion towards humans."

(Civil Aggression in German Shepherds | German Shepherds | Adoption Policies | Pets for Adoption | Montana German Shepherd Rescue)


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't necessarily think the terms are mutually exclusive. 

I understand "civil" to mean a dogs level of inherent suspicion. So a very civil dog is quicker to recognize and react to a threat. 

A dog can be civil and social.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Good old thread where Anne (Vandal) was commenting
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html
> 
> Very good layman definition
> ...


CarolinaRose, My thoughts are similar to yours but adding to it total neutrality/aloofness and social being more a willingness to interact appropriately with strangers. Guess I have some reading to do with the links Jax provided.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

An ideal GSD is both social - able to navigate all sorts of human interactions and environments safely and appropriately -- and be civil , able to draw on the aggressive powers to protect , fight , again appropriately.
Total balance . 
There is no trigger happy posturing , no "picture" 

this is the dog that I like to have


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> An ideal GSD is both social - able to navigate all sorts of human interactions and environments safely and appropriately -- and be civil , able to draw on the aggressive powers to protect , fight , again appropriately.
> Total balance .
> There is no trigger happy posturing , no "picture"
> 
> this is the dog that I like to have


So can civil mean neutral?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

A civil dog can be neutral in a given situation if they perceive no threat. But they are not synonymous. 

Best explanation of civility was told to me this way. 

Not civil- guy sitting at bar with girlfriend, new dude walks in, pushing first guy off stool and kisses his girlfriend. First guy walks away. 

Mid civil- first guy punches new guy after getting pushed off stool. 

Very civil- first guy meets new guy at the door when he sees him eyeball his girlfriend and punches him before he gets all the way inside. 

It's a level and how quick a threat is perceived and reacted to. If the new guy came in, sat down with his buddies and had a drink, then a stable, but even highly civil dog would have remained neutral. 

Civil dogs are not "reactive" dogs, they just assess and act on a threat quicker than non civil dogs. But they can be perfectly stable and social dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ perfect description. thanks


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> An ideal GSD is both social - able to navigate all sorts of human interactions and environments safely and appropriately -- and be civil , able to draw on the aggressive powers to protect , fight , again appropriately.
> Total balance .
> There is no trigger happy posturing , no "picture"
> 
> *this is the dog that I like to have*



I agree with this. In bold is the type of dogs I like as well. 

Civil or civil aggression, means the dog will engage for real. Not just being neutral, but will actively engage. At least IMO. 

Social to me means they are stable and neutral in every environment. Not that they are the neighborhood pet. We are dealing with GSD's after all, not labradoodles.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A civil dog can absolutely be a social dog, be good with kids, small dogs and cats. A civil dog brings up the fight when he discerns a threat....many people see this and call it "defense" and claim it is fear based. I think that term - defense - is the most misunderstood and misused term in the protection training phase.....defense is NOT CIVIL AGGRESSION. 

Nowadays, many groups, training helpers etc cannot discern the difference themselves - or if they do - dismiss teh dog as not being able to get titled, and recommend it be sold as a police dog - which should be both civil and social.

Lee


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Interesting, because I see defense- civil- fear being thrown around all the time and I always have to look at the dog in front of me rather than go off of the "lingo". Because everyone has a slightly different definition. Partly based on the type of dog they see, or like.

I guess I'd define civil as bringing the fight for real to a threat. The issues come in with the dog's own definition of threat. A high defense or maybe fearful dog could bring wrath to a non-threat if he's also civil, and that's a scary dog. That might make a good border patrol or prison guard dog, but not so great for most sport handlers. 

But few people care for a high defense, civil dog these days, at least in sport.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

The way I see it, like everything else there are degrees. IMO, a "civil" dog is one that will engage a person for real, with no bite equipment present and little provocation. There are threshold levels and a civil dog with lower thresholds will engage faster than a dog with a higher threshold. Just as there are degrees of how "social" a dog is. 

We have all seen dogs that "very social" or "super social." A very social dog is a friendly dog, one that likes interaction with people. A dog that seeks out attention in a friendly manner. IMHO, usually very social dogs or dogs with a high level of being social are generally not "very civil." 

A truly civil dog does not need to perceive a threat to bite, it just has to have it's "rules" broken or space invaded. The dog may not be threatened at all. Many civil dogs do not bark or put on big shows of aggression before they bite. You may get a growl, but you may not. You may simply just get a look, and then get bit. 

I will use my dog as an example, Boomer is fairly social. I'd say a moderate degree of socialness. Maybe a 5 on a scale of 1-10. He is "social" enough to be around people and work in large groups or crowds. However, he is not social enough to be petted by strangers, handled by anyone else like a vet tech for example. He is a "civil" dog and will bite with little provocation and warning. No big displays of aggression, maybe a growl. To rate his degree of "civilness," I'd say he is a 7 on a scale of 10. 

A civil dog will bite with little provocation. Eye contact is all it takes to make Boomer key on someone. I know immediately if some one has caught his attention and is staring him down or just making eye contact. This is not a threat and civil is not always related to a perceived threat by the dog, this is simply a challenge. Like the example above of the guy in the bar, sometimes eye contact is enough to start a fight.

In describing dogs we often use terms that are in contrast to how we use them when describing people, civil is a good example. 

Civil and social are terms to describe temperament traits in dogs. I look at them like a see saw when evaluating dogs. I test and evaluate dogs and use a chart to rate drives: prey, hunt, defense, fight, civil and social. Socialness is important to me, so is civil. For what I do, we need dogs that have a higher degree of "civilness." 

If you were to view civil and social as two ends of a see saw, as civil goes up, social goes down and vice versa. The more social dogs or overly social dogs have a lower degree of being civil. 

This is in relation to GSD's. If we start talking about Malinois then it changes. :laugh: They can be very social and civil.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

"A truly civil dog does not need to perceive a threat to bite, it just has to have it's "rules" broken or space invaded. The dog may not be threatened at all. Many civil dogs do not bark or put on big shows of aggression before they bite. You may get a growl, but you may not. You may simply just get a look, and then get bit."

Well said. That explains it much better than simple "threat". Because some dogs bite because it feels good or the "picture" for the dog was right for a bite. And these same dogs might really like people, and be quite social. Might mostly apply to malinois types. 

SlamDunc, out of curiosity, can you explain how "defense" drive factors into civil-social or how that relates to thresholds? Or is defense drive also threshold- I know I'm throwing out a bunch of lingo here, and sorry about that, but trying to make sense of things I hear about dogs and see in dogs.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Great conversation and links to read! For simply pet owners such as myself, please indulge my non-trainer thoughts!  My first shepherd was very what I think of as "social"; he enjoyed our kids and their friends ( all were young to teen age). He would greet them with a wag of the tail, and come for a pet. He usually sat in the room where the kids congregated. But he did not have that labrador type of "pant, pant, pant, let me lick your faces and plop down on your laps, and make a pest of myself". Social but reserved. He was also the unofficial mascot of the volunteer fire department, and went to the meetings of the junior firefighters with my kids. It never entered anyone's mind to be afraid of that big German Shepherd. The best dog! My second shepherd was what I, as a pet owner, would consider "civil"; she was incredibly bonded to me, and when I walked her, if we encountered a neighbor, she would sit quietly at my side and kind of keep a relaxed attitude but ignore the neighbor. People admired her, but they were not as apt to reach out and pet her, as people did with my first shepherd. She was also the best dog in many regards. Every dog is different, but I appreciated them both. I am not sure if this makes any sense to the trainers/experts here!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A civil dog is a dog that will actively take on a threat without equipment, so "bite for real". These dogs are not necessarily low threshold or going to bite quickly with little provocation. A civil dog can most definitely be social.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So if a dog enjoys being around people, likes kids, will socialize when out and about but is capable of gauging a real threat and will act to defend, with no hesitation on a bite, what would it be?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Different people certainly have different explanations for different words.....no wonder it is so hard to describe dogs correctly in this sport.

I certainly do not think a dog who is civil will bite for no reason - that is not a stable dog....

Lee


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> Different people certainly have different explanations for different words.....no wonder it is so hard to describe dogs correctly in this sport.
> 
> I certainly do not think a dog who is civil will bite for no reason - that is not a stable dog....
> 
> Lee


I hope my post didn't come off as me saying "civil" is biting for no reason?

IME, there are different degrees of "civil" just like any temperament trait. A very civil dog will bite with little provocation. It may be eye contact causing the dog to react. With Boomer, you will be warned if you pet his head or mess with his hair. He is a very stable dog, and he will play ball with anyone all day. But that doesn't make you friends or part of his pack, that simply makes you a pitching machine that throws his toy. I've had people think after 20 minutes of being around him and throwing his toy, they were friends. I warn people, those don't listen will be warned by Boomer. Ignore his warning and you will most certainly get bit. 

Just like people, some dogs are quicker to react or have lower thresholds. It comes in varying degrees. Can a social dog be "civil", of course. Can a civil dog be social, sure. IME, very civil dogs are rarely very social.

Of course, there are exceptions. We have a Malinois in my unit. One of my favorite dogs and an outstanding Patrol dog with a lot of real bites. Very serious bites, very committed and very serious when turned on. The dog is suer social with most people. To annoy his handler I will walk up to his car, open the rear door and take his dog out and play with him. This is unusual for most Patrol dogs, they are very territorial and protective in the car. Because I have an odd sense of humour, I will take this dog out when a bunch of cops are around and give him belly rubs in the street. No handler likes to see their "tough" patrol dogs rolling around on their back getting belly rubs. What I find the funniest is the look on the handlers face, especially the first time. I can muzzle fight this dog, and we put a lot of pressure on the dogs in muzzle fighting. I will have the handler "out" and down his dog next to me, after a two minute muzzle fight and start to rub his belly. The dog will relax, roll on his back and let me rub his belly. The instant he gets his bite command he flips over and goes right back to being seriously aggressive. That is a very social dog, very stable and very "civil." There are few dogs that have high levels of both. 

IME, a truly civil dog will bite for real, with out equipment present and it does not have to recognize a threat or feel threatened to bite. If a dog has to be threatened to bite for real, then that it has a high threshold and not very civil.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gsdsar said:


> A civil dog can be neutral in a given situation if they perceive no threat. But they are not synonymous.
> 
> Best explanation of civility was told to me this way.
> 
> ...




I've just discovered my boyfriend is very civil. Certainly much more so than my dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

part of the reason that "civil" dogs are not as common is that they are not reactive, do not bite for minor irritations , are not flashy prey oriented , 
and for sport , need to have a decoy that will bring on the pressure for THIS part of the character to be exposed.

Quote---
explains it much better than simple "threat". Because some dogs bite because it feels good or the "picture" for the dog was right for a bite"

Hold on --- civil , ACTIVE aggression , doesn't even have to have anything to do with reaction to threat or biting.
The civil dog wants to control , assert, dominate a situation - no threat necessary, no bite necessary,
imposing authority and power and amping up till results are there. Herding , prime example , as long as you don't think of herding as the prey border collie chase type which is common to herding instinct trials.

The dog has to be stable. 
Initially the dog will respond as he feels he needs to , which is why prey decoy work will never bring out the tenacious fight , the push to dominate the decoy , not grab the booty. The dog plays with the playful decoy. 

As the aggressor escalates , so does the dog .


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Carmen nailed it! A stable, thinking dog. ACTIVE aggression--not defense. These dogs are so incredibly difficult to find now. And even more difficult to find a decoy who understands and can work them. Mine has high levels of appropriate aggression, yet is perfectly social in any situation I place him. He will play with kids, strangers in crowded stores and a decoy once off the field. Incredible mental clarity. And a couch potato in the house. It took me many, many years to find what I was looking for because so many breeders are following the sport market with dogs that are so out of balance with prey drive that it will even cover varying degrees of poor nerve on the field. Many are hectic, possess little to no active aggression, and are certainly not good examples of the breed standard. Sadly, many breeders and buyers alike rush to latest fad just as is seen in the conformation world. Thankfully, there are a few good breeders who understand what they are doing and maintain the course in spite of the difficulties the present market presents.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

We certainly do have a lot of different interpretations of civil. 

When I describe a dog as civil, it is similar to "sharp." Not "sharp/shy" which would be a fear biter. Dogs that I would describe as "civil" most definitely have active aggression, but they are not the dogs that you let strangers walk up and pet. 

Again, I see varying degrees of how "civil" a dog may be. Just like there are varying degrees of all the drives. A dog can react aggressively to a stimuli, but that is not always a very civil dog, IMHO.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> part of the reason that "civil" dogs are not as common is that they are not reactive, do not bite for minor irritations , are not flashy prey oriented ,
> and for sport , need to have a decoy that will bring on the pressure for THIS part of the character to be exposed.
> 
> Quote---
> ...


Exactly Carmen!!!! A dog who bites without cause is a liablity!!!! Alert and guard at stimulus but not bite unless necessary........

Pam understands  as well! 

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sharp and civil aren't one and the same. 

sharpness is still reactive -- the choice is fight or flight -- the better dog choosing the fight .

this form of sharp looks impressive , oozing edge .

a stable civil dog is confident to the point of being carefree - no concerns , no worries , no tensions, and certainly no panic.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

We have different meanings when using the same words. I find it hard to describe a dog's temperament with one word. A dog may be calm, stable and confident, but not civil. A dog may be calm, confident, stable and civil. As I said there are varying degrees of "civil", IMO. 

When evaluating a dog, if I describe the dog as "civil", that will be a dog that you would be careful approaching. I might readily approach and pet a civil dog as described by some on this thread. 

I would say that Boomer is civil. He is also stable, calm and confident. But, he is not allowing people to walk up and pet him. He is absolutely not threatened nor concerned. He is a "rise to the occasion" dog as you described earlier, but he is a very serious dog. He takes eye contact as a challenge and not a threat, he will move directly to the person and match the challenge. No big aggressive display, just all business. I have a couple of examples where he has been nose to nose with people and it was very serious. One was a felony suspect that was on the ground fighting two nacotics Detectives. Boomer stood on his chest after the guy kicked him in the head and wrapped his knees around his head. Boomer stared into his eyes, nose to nose. The guy was given two more chances to comply and still refused. The ER Doctor thought the guys arm was broken. I'd say Boomer was calm, confident, stable, civil and in an eerily quiet rage as he stood on the suspect waiting for his signal. 

To me that is civil. 

I see civil and social as traits that in most dogs have an inverse relationship. Naturally, a balance is ideal. But, highly social and highly civil is very rare in GSD's. For what I do, civil is very important, more important than social. I like both and I value both, but I tip the scales to the civil side. It is like prey and defense. I like high amounts of both, but slightly more prey than defense and more civil than social. I'm talking about LE K-9s. For my personal dogs, I like more social and less civil. Again, just my opinion and my experience. 

I may very well have been using these terms wrong for years.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Keep up the discussion, it's been very interesting. I was going to post a bunch of replies, but then my computer froze/crashed and now I don't have time before work. Be back later today.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A Civil dog with low threshold and clear-headedness ( a dog that does not get so hyped up in the fight or get so frustrated in prey that they re-direct and bite anything, anybody that is in their line of sight) - can be a good, stable, dependable pet also. So a person shouldn't be scared away from a breeder that advertises their dogs as being Civil, but at the same time, as this discussion shows, a person will need to discuss with the breeder what THEY mean by Civil, as it has different meanings to different people. 

Gryffon is the social and civil type of Dog - Agree that is rare. He comes to work with me, loves people! Loves petting, attention, brings his toys to people and jams them into their hands trying to give them a hint. No issues walking him thorugh town and getting petted by strangers and little kids. 

I've worked him with some LE dog trainers, so he has been tested some, and put through some realistic scenarios - I hesitate to really bring him out as an example, because I sure don't want to pretend I'm in the same league as Slamdunc and other professional LE dog handlers, and the dogs that are actually doing LE, but I get some pretty interesting comments from the decoys that work him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"A Civil dog with low threshold and clear-headedness ( a dog that does not get so hyped up in the fight or get so frustrated in prey that they re-direct and bite anything, anybody that is in their line of sight) - can be a good, stable, dependable pet also"

Castlemaid I think you meant to say high thresholds .

a low threshold dog is always on the verge of reacting 

I think the word Civil is inappropriately used and if I saw it in an ad I would tend to second guess that the person meant to promote what some on the forum call a maligator --- the pop eyed foaming beast ready to tear flesh from bone. (not bringing malinois in to the discussion) .

Go for the BALANCED , secure , confident dog .


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh, yes, I meant to say high-threshold - sorry!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Yikes and now I am pretty sure I confused the two terms civil and sharp. BAAAAHHHH!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So can we clarify?

dog A-friendly, likes people, enjoys interaction and will make friends,reacts to an honest threat by warning/barking/growling and will bite without hesitation when faced with a real threat.

dog B-aloof with strangers, does not interact with them, will tolerate on command, reacts little to outside stimulus but always watchful,little warning given and will bite quickly under real/perceived threat.

dog C-reacts to everything, focuses on movement or noise quickly, will bite with little or no warning at any invasion of space

Which is civil? Which is social? Which is better?
I have tried to describe a range of dogs I commonly see/deal with. And I am curious what the average person would be better served by.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You know there will never be a real consensus.  

I say: Dogs A & B - civil, with different levels of sociability. Safe, sane, dogs. Both are fine in many different situations, and are fine with the average person (assuming that the average person is someone like me, and most people on this forum). This is were people need to understand temperament and drives when discussing what they are looking for with a breeder - I specifically wanted a friendly dog that makes friends easily, as I tend to isolate myself so socialization can be an issue - but not so much if the dog is people-oriented and naturally friendly. So that was a consideration in my choice of breeders. 


Dog C - a nut case. Shouldn't be out in public. Probably what most people would call sharp.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It has always been my understanding that civil is just a willingness to bite a human. Contrary to popular opinion, most dogs will choose not to bite but would choose flight, or freeze, over fight or bite if possible.

IMO, social means the degree of willingness to meet or tolerate human overtures.

IMO, threshholds vary from low to high and is a measure of IF, and when, a dog will determine a threat and act on it.

IMO, sharpness is related to threshholds but the difference lies in a dog determining a threat but not acting on it such as a dog being suspicious but adopting a wait and see attitude.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It has always been my understanding that civil is just a willingness to bite a human. Contrary to popular opinion,* most dogs will choose not to bite but would choose flight, or freeze, over fight or bite if possible.
> *
> IMO, social means the degree of willingness to meet or tolerate human overtures.
> 
> ...


 Sabi was taught to respond to an invisible boundary around me. One of the things she taught herself was to stand up and push people back with her front legs to put them back outside that boundary.  It was sort of like her saying 'ok I will explain this one last time' She never did it twice, but I always read it as she was really not wanting to bite, and trying to prevent it. On command, she would bite without hesitation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Sabi was taught to respond to an invisible boundary around me. One of the things she taught herself was to stand up and push people back with her front legs to put them back outside that boundary.  It was sort of like her saying 'ok I will explain this one last time' She never did it twice, but I always read it as she was really not wanting to bite, and trying to prevent it. On command, she would bite without hesitation.


I was referring to the raw, untrained dog. Genetics.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

MAWL list is kind of my understanding, too, at least to now.

When I hear a dog is civil, that's a dog I respect and give distance to, a dog that might bite for real.

But there are bite-happy dogs that just bite because it feels good, they don't see a threat, they don't see a challenge, they just are triggered to bite for fun. They can be super social, forward dogs, too. This type of dog needs control for safety, but isn't really what I'd call a civil dog... or am I making this all too complicated.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I was referring to the raw, untrained dog. Genetics.


 I totally agree. I have handled some really messy dogs and very few would bite without serious provocation to defend themselves.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> So can we clarify?
> 
> dog A-friendly, likes people, enjoys interaction and will make friends,reacts to an honest threat by warning/barking/growling and will bite without hesitation when faced with a real threat.
> 
> ...



Neutral dog -- friends are the family circle 

everyone else is just there - no negative and no positive interaction selected by dog 

dog has an overall commanding presence -- 

totally aware -- think of Secret Service Agents

no confusion as to who they are "with" 
LOYALTY

won't be an instant "I'll work for you because you want to play ball" dog when transferred to new handler . Thinking specifically of some of the harder , civil , gsd , that were imported for PD/ LE and the dogs looked flat -- give them a period of BONDING and wowser -- This was evident in some of the EARLY imported DDR dogs and EARLY Czech dogs .

It was a (re) learning curve !!! for evaluators .

This type is vanishing as breeding is done to meet popular markets

for Personal Protection this is the group I would select from.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Good old thread where Anne (Vandal) was commenting
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html
> 
> Very good layman definition
> ...


Thanks for the link! I'll be sure to read through that!


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Wow, there's lots of interesting, and maybe even slightly contradicting, information in here. No wonder I'm so hazing on what Civil means. 

But now I might be even more confused as to what I'm looking for in my dog. Certainly, in a GSD, the willingness to engage in a fight and bite for real is important. It's why we have a GSD instead of a Golden Retriever. However, depending on the interpretation of the word "civil", and thus the traits being bred for, it seems as though you could have the most reliable partner ever, or a liability who perceives threats that aren't there (maybe even picks fights on occasion?) and takes matters into their own "paws".

The see-saw analogy is a good one. Clearly you don't want one who's all one and none of the other. 100% social and 0% civil and you have a Golden in a GSD suit. 100% civil and 0% social? Well that don't sound like fun at all. a 50/50 balance would probably be best, but if I had to pick one to have more of, I think I'd rather have more Social. Like 75/25. Enjoys meeting/playing with people, but aware of suspicious behavior and willing to engage and bite - _If it comes down to it_. 

A few of the posts made me nervous. The idea that a dog could respond with a bite not only to a (perceived) threat but even a (perceived) challenge! As a friend and member of the family who I want to join me out in the world, I would not want to have to always have to worry about whether or not someone is _looking_ at my dog wrong. I wouldn't want to hang out with a person who was like that, why would I tolerate that in my dog?

I understand that whether or not a dog has solid nerves play a part in this. Dogs who aren't fully confident in themselves might feel they have something to prove, and might react faster and more frequently and a dog who's so confident in their ability that, like someone else said



carmspack said:


> a stable civil dog is confident to the point of being carefree - no concerns , no worries , no tensions, and certainly no panic.


The further I got in this thread, and the more people explained their definition of civil and the various levels of threshold, the more I felt that "civil" could (possibly?) be more accurately described as a "confrontation threshold". 

Dogs who are "very civil" you could say be a "very low" confrontation threshold. They are very willing, even eager, to engage in an altercation. Or even start one. Looking at the world through a "TRY ME" lens. 

Dogs who have "average civility" would have a moderate confrontation threshold. They'll hold back more than the "very civil", but will step in sooner than the "low civil". 

Which leaves "low civility", which would have a high confrontation threshold. They'll try to avoid an altercation if possible, but will respond if it comes to it. 

Do I more or less have that right?

I know I know, I'm trying to redefine the term. But clearly there's much confusion over what this term REALLY is supposed to mean. I feel calling this trait something that could be understood more intuitively could GREATLY help to clear up some confusion. 

ASSUMING that I more or less understand the previous posts, I think this is what everyone's been kinda sorta saying, right? And if so, I feel I'd rather have a med to low civil (or med to high confrontational threshold . . .it's gonna be a thing!), so I don't have to worry about whether or not some ignorant-but-otherwise-well-meaning person tries to pet my dog (or look him in the eye!) when I'm not looking. 

Please correct me anywhere I am wrong - up to and including my whole post.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"or a liability who perceives threats that aren't there (maybe even picks fights on occasion?) and takes matters into their own "paws".


this is just an unstable dog


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

This is likely very true. (probably straight-up fact)

But . . .

Isn't it safe to say that a dog with high levels of civility and anything less than stable, rock-solid nerves is, more likely than not, a liability? 

And if you're breeding for highly civil dogs, granted you'll produce pups that vary on the civil scale. But you'll also get pups that waver on the stable-nerves scale too, right?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Civil = A dog that will engage or show aggression without the aid of equipment or any kind of stimulation from the decoy / bad guy. This can be easily trained with a good dog.

A civil dog can be high or low threshold, prey oriented, defensive or socially aggressive. 

Certain types of dogs take to this type of work more easily over others. The most essential trait is confidence followed by drive.

Many people falsely label fear aggression as civil. This will quickly be exposed when the dog is properly tested.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CarolinaRose , the dog that you are describing will avoid .
That is the opposite of taking charge and dominating a situation , a confrontation. 
With the civil dog the tougher it gets, the more punishing , the more the dog digs in and fights.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Civil = A dog that will engage or show aggression without the aid of equipment or any kind of stimulation from the decoy / bad guy. This can be easily trained with a good dog.
> 
> A civil dog can be high or low threshold, prey oriented, defensive or socially aggressive.
> 
> ...


The whole point is that this is a genetic trait , just as prey oriented dogs are what they are because of breeding choices .

You don't train it into a dog.
A good decoy , not prey / play , will expose the dog and allow him to perform at his best .

" This can be easily trained with a good dog"

How ? 

"A civil dog can be high or low threshold, prey oriented, defensive or socially aggressive"

But they are not prey oriented ! But they are not defensive ! 
Thresholds are high . They don't stimulate easily. Watchful and aware yes .

All those reasons are why this type of dog is disappearing from the GSD breeding pool.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

IMO, civil is just another trait in the temperament package. It is not stand alone, nor is it exclusive of prey or defense. A highly prey driven dog can be civil. 

When it comes to defense, then I view it a little differently. A dog with solid nerves, strong temperament and high drives (prey and defense) can be civil. 

There is a distinction in my mind between a "civil" dog and an overly defensive dog. IME, I would not call an overly defensive dog, "civil". The dog that makes the big aggressive show, baring teeth, lots of posturing and barking, is more defensive. That doesn't mean the dog will not bite a person for real, with out equipment, but much higher on the defense scale. When we start adding "defense" in to the conversation, we need to see the triggers, body language and reaction. 

As Carmspack correctly stated:

*CarolinaRose , the dog that you are describing will avoid .
That is the opposite of taking charge and dominating a situation , a confrontation. 
With the civil dog the tougher it gets, the more punishing , the more the dog digs in and fights.*

This is true. When discussing defense, another trait in dogs, higher defense can become avoidance or flight. It is another balance, and fight and flight and perceived threat and desire to win come in to the analysis. 

This is similar to saying that a dog is "very social", odds are a very social dog will not be "civil", IMO. 

I'm sure I am confusing the issue for some. 

It is very clear to me when I look at a dog and want to evaluate it's temperament and drive package. I never take one trait and analyze it separately. That would be like looking at a dog with a wagging tail and saying, "he's friendly!" Or a dog with it's ears back and flat on it's head and thinking the dog is submissive or happy. For clarity, tail wagging is excited, not always "happy." Aggressive dogs wag their tails too, just differently. A dog with it's ears pinned back on it's head are not necessarily happy or submissive, all pointy eared dogs put their ears back before they bite. The point is that it is never good to analyze a dog by one trait, behavior or signal from it's body language. 

"Civil" is simply one of the terms used to describe a dog's temperament. A dog can have high prey and even high defense and be civil, if it has a balance and the right nerve strength, confidence and strong temperament to handle those drives. A dog that is highly defensive, with lower nerve strength or a lesser temperament is defensive. I would not categorize a dog with weaker nerves, but highly suspicious as "civil." Even though the dog may bite a person for real with out any bite equipment present. 

It is the whole package in a dog that makes up the dog's temperament. I agree, it is rare to see it in GSD's these days. 

I think it comes down to the whole package of drives, thresholds and temperament that make up the dog. I would not consider Lassie "civil." When I say a dog is "civil" I am describing a dog with a balanced drive and temperament package, a dog that has defense combined with solid nerves and a strong temperament. The dog is not very social with strangers, more aloof. The dog will absolutely respond to a challenge, but not in an overly defensive way. The dog will have a "presence." One that is easily recognizable, people will ask before approaching and petting this type of dog. IMO, a "civil" dog may not be the dog that you bring to the family picnic. 

I'm sure that just adds more confusion to the topic.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

I sometimes think the word civil should be discarded, since it causes so much confusion, even among the very experienced. I prefer to distinguish the temperament characteristics by using active aggression versus a dog that must be placed into a defensive posture to elicit the same response. Carmen's description of a highly confident dog that is able to be relaxed and social and carefree, yet possesses high levels of active aggression when the situation warrants is dead-on. This is the old "farm dog" that was so highly prized. Intelligent, stable and able to appropriately discern when there was a threat and when there was not. Watchful and always thinking, but not suspicious and with low thresholds. I think many are skeptical that a dog with high levels of natural, appropriate aggression can still be highly social and stable in all environments because you just don't see many of them any longer. As Carmen has repeatedly opined, it is in large part due to the fact that what sport buyers think they want pressures breeders to produce it and the downward spiral has begun. These dogs are perfectly able to live in a relatively clueless pet home and not be a danger/liability because of their stable temperament--and, yes, I have watched a good number of these dogs in such settings because of my interest in certain breedings. They are not incredibly flashy in obedience on the sport field but do well. In some lines, the hunt drive has been preserved to make anyone who can hang onto a line look like a tracking genius. And, again, as Carmen has said, it takes a decoy with a lot of presence and knowledge of temperament to work them properly. With a good decoy, they explode on the protection field and are a joy to watch.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This reminds me of our last shepherd to a tee. A Working line from Belgium. He had quite the presence. He was aloof to all but immediate family members. Aloof so much as I don't think he so much took notice to anyone outside his circle. He would show his soft side to only those he knew well. He never barked when someone came at the door he would just loom down the stairs -at the time we lived in a high ranch. He would see who entered the house and would go lie back down. Actually he never barked ( only if happy or excited) he was all business. Quiet intense dog. A silent demand for respect of his own space. He would eat someone if we were in seriously harmed by someone thankfully he never had to and never saw that side but had no doubt it was there. Never over reacted to anything accept hated to go to the vet. Definately not a dog you would bring to family picnics although if someone threw his Kong he would be delighted to play fetch.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> IMO, civil is just another trait in the temperament package. It is not stand alone, nor is it exclusive of prey or defense. A highly prey driven dog can be civil.
> 
> When it comes to defense, then I view it a little differently. A dog with solid nerves, strong temperament and high drives (prey and defense) can be civil.
> 
> ...


@Slamdunc

I am from the train of thought that civil is of a temperamental quality as well, which would make it heritable.

There are those of who believe that a dog can be taught to be civil, and I can't necessarily say I disagree, but maybe different terminology should be used to distinguish the difference. After all, many fear biters will bite without equipment too but we don't qualify them as civil either.

What I am curious about is how does either of these types of dogs play into the selection of a dog by you for work. Would both qualify? Why or why not?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lisl is a K9 bred GSD and this thread has taught me a little bit more about her. I have never owned this type of working line, and she was a challenge as a pup, but extremely smart and willing to learn and perform tasks. She is extremely bonded to me but without displaying any separation anxiety.

Her temperament has always slightly confused me until today.

If I had to rate her, I would say 70% civil and 30% social.

She considers a stare as a challenge and will meet that challenge moving towards the perceived threat. She is more alert to her surroundings and environment than any of my other GSD's were, and will react to certain stimuli. I believe she would bite if I allowed her to go that far. 

She is not a social dog, and will not allow you to pet her or otherwise interact with her. She may come up to you for a sniff and a once-over, but you cannot touch her. As a warning she may grab your hand and release it with no other verbal warning. But she is serious. I believe that she would not consider you a threat in a social setting after I tell her it's OK for this person to be here, but she will only tolerate you being here because I say so. She is fine around groups and family & friends and will not growl or otherwise display aggression in a social situation, unless she perceives a threat to her or me.

I do wish I could be more specific and have one or more of you experienced handlers evaluate her to see if you see in her what I see.

I used to think she had a touch of 'nerve bag' as she was maturing. But I no longer think of her as having that problem. She has rock-solid nerve. I just did not know what I was looking at until reading this thread.

Thank you.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't believe a person can say that their dog is civil, unless they have actually tested them in realistic scenarios with hidden protection equipment on the decoy, or had them in a situation where there was a real threat, and the dog responded correctly with a real bite (voodoolamb's dog comes to mind - he protected her from an assault).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think there is still some confusion about what civil means in the GSD world and what breeders mean by it. Basically Civil means 'is willing to bite for real'. 

Of course, there are a lot of unstable nerve-bags out there there who have and would bite anything that comes within range - those dogs are NOT civil, they are unstable, crazy, dangerous dogs.

Many people on this thread have tried to clarify that being civil also means being clear, confident, high-threshold, easily trained, controlled, and may or may not be social. 

A dog may be all these things, and NOT be civil, meaning that if the chips are down, they will not bite or attack, even if they posture a lot and act aggressive.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I had set up a scenario when she was a little over a year old with a helper. She would have bitten the helper had I not restrained her. She did this on command after being alerted to a possible threat as the helper approached in a threatening manner.

This wasn't a laboratory, scientific test mind you, but I know she would have bitten my helper. We did this a couple of different times. I never did it again after that.

I believe I wrote about this several years ago. But I did not know what I was seeing until this thread came along.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Ah! I see - I still would not say that a dog is civil if "they would have bitten" without the test carried through. Some dogs will just nip, and quickly dart away - a fearful reaction. Dogs that latch on and hang on are being civil - again, if doing this in proper defense, not inappropriate aggression.

But to avoid confusion - a dog is civil, or is not. There is no percentage of being civil. 
I think the most accurate way to describe Lisl is that you feel confident that she will protect you. If she came from police k9 lineage, there is a very good chance that she is civil, as that is something genetic, based on their inner confidence that they can take on a person in a fight, and win.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Was the helper wearing equipment?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

No. None.

And then based on what you say Castlemaid, she is civil.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> I think there is still some confusion about what civil means in the GSD world and what breeders mean by it. Basically Civil means 'is willing to bite for real'.
> 
> Of course, there are a lot of unstable nerve-bags out there there who have and would bite anything that comes within range - those dogs are NOT civil, they are unstable, crazy, dangerous dogs.
> 
> ...


Hello, Castlemaid, YES there is a lot of confusion especially for those of us who are mere pet owners! I am almost embarassed by my post on this thread about my two shepherds! Yikes! I am definitely out of my league on this one :crazy: Haha! I surely do enjoy all the info, though!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I admit myself not even close in this league and a bit embarrassing as I still ramble on, but this thread reminded me our last shepherd who I felt was always rare. Our last shepherd had some police dog training which he flunked out as he would not release. his second owner did schutzhund work with him. He also had a attack word which was never told to me. I just made sure it was not something that can be mistaken. So through none of my experiences has he had to bite anyone but have no doubt he would of. Even dogs that would approach seem to have respect him. I remember it was a day after I came home from the hospital with having my baby I took karat for a walk a pit bull was going crazy as we walked down the street hopped the fence came charging right in a snarling rage at us. I thought it was over and looking for a car to duck in and set off an alarm. Karat stood his ground and they smelled nose to nose -yikes- not even butts and the pit bull went turned right back to his yard. I never saw anything like it. I thought karat exuded some kind of special musk. I walked over and picked up the leash and was greatful for him we were safe and walked away. He was a very different dog and find thread this very interesting. Always liked to learn more about him.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

MichaelE said:


> No. None.
> 
> And then based on what you say Castlemaid, she is civil.


Nope! Can't say she is. You CAN say that you are quite satisfied within yourself that she will defend and engage, but you cannot say that she is civil if she has not actually bit full, and held on through a fight. 

Since your helper was not wearing hidden protection equipement, you could not test her to see if she was civil. 

Was your helper an experience police dog trainer who has taken bites while wearing protective equipment? 

Because I can say from witnessing dogs being trained, that many a dog that will bite equipment (bite sleeves and visible bite suits)  will NOT engage a person for real. They understand the difference between biting a person for real, and that this is now a real fight they have to finish if they start. Dogs that EVEYONE thought would engage a helper with hidden equipment, did not, even though the decoy was experienced in bringing defensiveness out of dogs. 

You just can't say one way or another until the dog is put to the test.

Disclaimer: Do NOT try this at home, kids! The examples and stories being related here were carried out by highly experienced Police K9 dog trainers!


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

It was the local K9 officer that lives across the street from me. He is the person who introduced me to Lisl's breeder.

If a full-bite is a prerequisite, then she is not civil. Until she is.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Nice - thanks for that info. I think that since your helper was a K9 officer, his input would be quite reliable. Lisl sounds like a great dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Nope! Can't say she is. You CAN say that you are quite satisfied within yourself that she will defend and engage, but you cannot say that she is civil if she has not actually bit full, *and held on through a fight.
> *
> Since your helper was not wearing hidden protection equipement, you could not test her to see if she was civil.
> 
> ...


I think that would apply to trained dogs only. There are civil dogs that will bite for real but have had no training that will stay in the fight but not grip and hold on. They will bite and release, rinse and repeat.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Could be - but biting full and holding on is genetic - many an untrained dog with the right genetics will bite and hold on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Could be - but biting full and holding on is genetic - many an untrained dog with the right genetics will bite and hold on.


:thumbup:


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

My helper seemed to think she would have bitten him given the chance. Just as soon as I stopped her and told her OFF OFF OFF, she was just as calm as before.

I hope it doesn't happen, but I guess I will have to wait and see if she ever bites under the right (bad) circumstances.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

This thread has been amazing. And I'm glad that it's helped some people have a better understanding of who their dog is. A pleasant and unexpected outcome to this thread 

I was trying really hard to understand what Camspack was saying, but I think Castlemaid helped to clear that up a lot. 



Castlemaid said:


> But to avoid confusion - a dog is civil, or is not. There is no percentage of being civil.


Pure and simple, straight to the point, a dog will either fully engage, or they wont. And that's something I'm willing to accept and live with. 

Also, that means that all those other scenarios that involve a dog engaging but under the wrong circumstances involve not just a civil dog, but other drives and even a lack of stable nerves as well. Things got a little clearer when someone brought up the "defensive drive". I could easily see how a dog with a high defense drive and low threshold ( do all drives have a threshold?) could find offense where none was intended and feel the need to engage. That actually makes sense to me. 

That said, how high should a dog's defensive drive be? Or should a dog HAVE a high defensive drive, so long as he has the high threshold to go with it?

Also, I'm a little confused as I think Carmspack gave some conflicting information. 

Would a civil dog with unstable nerves attack or not? What other ingredient would a civil, weak nerved dog need to engage and not avoid?

I need to go to work so I'll find the exact passages that are confusing me later (tomorrow or so), but until then I think this is the only thing still confusing me. 

I'm trying to figure out how to accurately describe the traits I'm looking for in a dog before I go puppy-shopping . . . X many years from now


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I haven't read most of the recent responses, but here is my two cents. You can not train a dog to be civil. Either it is or it isn't. It's genetics. Biting without equipment by itself doesn't make a dog civil. Otherwise every fear biter out there would be considered civil. It goes much deeper than that. Like most things, it's too hard to describe over the internet. You (general) need to get out there and see a lot of dogs work or work them yourself to really start to understand the differences. There is so much more to drives and temperament than what meets the eye and as some of you are finding out, some play into another.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MichaelE I would NOT say that your dog is "civil"


this "She considers a stare as a challenge and will meet that challenge moving towards the perceived threat. She is more alert to her surroundings and environment than any of my other GSD's were, and will react to certain stimuli. I believe she would bite if I allowed her to go that far. "

this is a fearful dog -- a CONFIDENT dog able to push his agenda and dominate an aggressor or a situation has NO FEAR . 

don't concentrate on the bite -- concentrate on the powerful will to control and be victorious , which may or may not need a bite .

someone asked " After all, many fear biters will bite without equipment too but we don't qualify them as civil either.

What I am curious about is how does either of these types of dogs play into the selection of a dog by you for work. Would both qualify? Why or why not? 
Answer -- a fear biter is useless. 
You can't predict when his LOW threshold is crossed , you can not rely on the dog . 

There is no MENTAL STAMINA for pressure .

He will leave you standing there to face the "danger" by yourself , after having aggravated the situation by going in for a DEFENSIVE , fear based bite , which may be pre-emptive at first glimmer of threat (or not) to AVOID . 
Fear reaction is an avoidance tactic .

Civil is CONTROL of the situation. No fear .
You can rely on him to handle and finish the situation to a satisfactory conclusion .


CarolinaRose-- I don't know where this comes from "Also, I'm a little confused as I think Carmspack gave some conflicting information. 

Would a civil dog with unstable nerves attack or not? What other ingredient would a civil, weak nerved dog need to engage and not avoid?"

because I have said many many times that a civil dog 
does NOT have unstable nerves. 
That is an unstable dog . Working in defense which has two options , fight or flight.

A civil dog when pushed into conflict works OFFENSIVELY . There is no avoidance / flight option.
They command the situation, escalate as needed , and aim to be the victor. 

mycobra --- YES YES YES "I haven't read most of the recent responses, but here is my two cents. You can not train a dog to be civil. Either it is or it isn't. It's genetics. Biting without equipment by itself doesn't make a dog civil. Otherwise every fear biter out there would be considered civil. It goes much deeper than that. Like most things, it's too hard to describe over the internet. You (general) need to get out there and see a lot of dogs work or work them yourself to really start to understand the differences. There is so much more to drives and temperament than what meets the eye and as some of you are finding out, some play into another"

It is not trained. It is or it isn't.

the problem is that many younger GSD fanciers and sports people have not experienced this kind of dog as they are being phased out .
They are not flashy, reactive , and there are not decoys that can work them to showcase their stuff.

Pam get "it" " 










I sometimes think the word civil should be discarded, since it causes so much confusion, even among the very experienced. I prefer to distinguish the temperament characteristics by using active aggression versus a dog that must be placed into a defensive posture to elicit the same response. Carmen's description of a highly confident dog that is able to be relaxed and social and carefree, yet possesses high levels of active aggression when the situation warrants is dead-on. This is the old "farm dog" that was so highly prized. Intelligent, stable and able to appropriately discern when there was a threat and when there was not. Watchful and always thinking, but not suspicious and with low thresholds. I think many are skeptical that a dog with high levels of natural, appropriate aggression can still be highly social and stable in all environments because you just don't see many of them any longer. As Carmen has repeatedly opined, it is in large part due to the fact that what sport buyers think they want pressures breeders to produce it and the downward spiral has begun. These dogs are perfectly able to live in a relatively clueless pet home and not be a danger/liability because of their stable temperament--and, yes, I have watched a good number of these dogs in such settings because of my interest in certain breedings. They are not incredibly flashy in obedience on the sport field but do well. In some lines, the hunt drive has been preserved to make anyone who can hang onto a line look like a tracking genius. And, again, as Carmen has said, it takes a decoy with a lot of presence and knowledge of temperament to work them properly. With a good decoy, they explode on the protection field and are a joy to watch. 
__________________


I was not familiar with Pam as a poster and wondered why in her posts on this thread that she got "it". 
Then, looked at her signature line and the two Wolfstraum dogs , and there was my answer.
Lee Ms Wolfstraum knows and appreciates , Vandal knows and appreciates, Lisa -- also, mycobra also.
Sorry my friends -- the older crew .

And when you talk of such dogs then the ageist cracks and the unicorn inhabited garden insults are brought out .

Genetically , it comes from herding stock.
In the beginning the main stud Hektor came from Thuringian quarter of the 4 old pillars for the prick-ear and wolf like appearance . 
Most modern sport and show lines focus on this portion.

Herding stock including the Swabian herding and courageous , intelligent , biddable, aloof ,Wurtemberger 

and Swabian GUARDIAN(molosser type ) who were larger , strong , steadfast, (my favourite phrase) calm and tenacious . They would not back down from a fight.

The later mentioned herding group is disappearing .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is one of my discussions on the genetics of this civil GSD (2012)

"

but the Swabian dogs represented two types - one the Swabian herding sheep dog and the TALLER Swabian service dog more of a guardian type and having excellent qualities for war time and police service . They were used to protect the flock against thieving poachers, wild hogs, bear and intruding stray dogs , without the behaviour that you see in other livestock guardian dogs which "become" the sheep through immersion imprinting at critical developmental times (Konrad Lorenz). This kept them multifunctional . (Hoheb Espe)
The Wurttemberger and Swabian (both) (von der Krone) did bring active aggression -- not reactive which was the case in the Thuringian (which Horand/Hektor was). Horand/Hektor and neither of his parents had HGH. The herding blood was brought in through the females .
Max was never the breeder , never had the success that "So" Eiselen had with Horand . So's reputation was well established and there are articles which give credit to So mixing the different regional types . "So" was the man behind von der Krone - Horand/Hektors best stock was under the guidance of So - to "unknown herding stock" so regional - mid German (Wurtemberg / Swabian ?) type. These became foundation dogs. Max could not ever match the quality of these dogs .
More important Max did not heed So's advice to NOT - NOT linebreed on Horand / Hektor , which he did against the advice bringing a very beautiful dog in to the world Roland Starkenburg -- but temperamentally suspect , excused away by Max as having been spoiled and over indulged. 

The "other" lines were not mystery unknown lines , they were the creation of different shepherds relying on the excellence of their dog's , as tools, for their livelihood and well being. Above all they had the gift on instinct for the work. They would have been recorded in personal , private records , memory, reputation -- oral history.
PUBLIC registry , the records of breed clubs , were new on the scene. A very good book to read is Bred for Perfection Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800 - Margaret E. Derry - Google Books
Sometimes numbers were created for some of these females , other times it was "unknown" as shrug unrecorded - but you ask the owner and they knew for sure , if at the minimal they knew the performance ability . All you need to do is to thoroughly read the von Stephanitz book with his details about OTHER herding dogs. 
You have to include a fourth pillar of the modern german shepherd and that would be Rolf Osnabruckerland "

von Stephanitz lays it out nicely right there in his GSD book .

I am looking at a pedigree , reserving a pup to recover some valuable lines that I have lost , that drips in genetic civil material ---


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

CarolinaRose, think of the term "civil" as applying ONLY to stable, clear-headed, high threshold dogs, with a balance of prey, defense and fight drives. 

Anything less is a fear biter.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lisl has never worked with any bite equipment so she wouldn't pay any attention to it if the person wearing it wasn't threatening her. It really wouldn't matter what you were wearing to her.

I agree, she is not civil. But I also do not believe she is fearful. I would also trust a man that has worked with K9's for 12 years and I value his opinion as someone who does this every day for a living.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Terminology is so debatable in this breed. 

Defense is too often used to describe dogs with aggression. Then follows that the dog has to be fear based as it is the "flight or fight" philosophy. WRONG. WRONG WRONG
When you watch a decoy work and work and work to get a dog to come out from behind an owner. When you watch the dog who will finally bite after several long periods of being harassed and threatened by a decoy. THAT DOG IS FEAR AGGRESSIVE - or in defense. 

Civil aggression is NOT fear based. Do not say every dog with aggression is fearful....ain't true. Do not tell people you saw a dog with aggression one or two times and it is nervy if you do not know the dog and have not seen it since it was a puppy. Believe me - mine are NOT in defense - not nervy - not fear aggressive and I don't appreciate anyone identifying their aggression that way.....it shows the person's lack of understanding!

I have had/produced dogs who were "sport dogs" with no aggression - a whole lot of them...very very successful sport dogs...high prey, high energy, high protection points consistently....great dogs, well loved dogs.

And then I have other dogs - have bred other dogs.....like Carmen says, the genetics are what make a dog with "civil aggression"....STABLE dogs...dogs with fight drive....the dog who is intelligent enough to discern a threat - who is good with children and protective - who has prey drive and understands the "game" but who has the fight drive if needed and LIKES the fight....


When you have BOTH types of dogs - it is not hard to understand the difference....Pam knows - she has had GSDs for a long time....all kinds of GSDs...and when you get one with correct temperament, stable, and with natural aggression and yet discernment, you KNOW....Carmen has hit it on the head over and over.....it is genetics pure and simple....keeping the genetics and not reducing them is the key and the challenge. I have been diligent - and LUCKY to find the right dogs....

Thanks Carmen!!!

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a dog with fear based aggression, but she also shows bullying behaviors and will not back down if provoked. She can't be put into a category. 
I have two males that are both high threshold, and confident, not what I'd call sporty. My older male is civil as described with Carmen and Lucia's terms. He is a real deal, and not one that will earn high scores in IPO, tracking in that style bores him...and obedience is not flashy. But we get high protection, and when I do protection challenges in other venues, he shines. 
He is civil with a high threshold, and is very discerning. I guess if I were to describe a civil dog, google Andy Maly Vah, Karlo's sire. He is that.
My younger male is also high threshhold, not yet mature so I haven't seen a civil edge with him. He isn't a prey monster. We are working him slowly in protection due to his age and his natural drive state. I do think he leans more toward that civil being when he does mature. 
Having a dog that is higher in threshold is good....regardless. I prefer a thinker and then a 'dooer'. They will always discern a threat, and not just go off to showboat.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Pretty much, it's all genetics.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> Pretty much, it's all genetics.


100% right - not something you can train.....once you see it - you understand

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Terminology is so debatable in this breed.
> 
> Defense is too often used to describe dogs with aggression. Then follows that the dog has to be fear based as it is the "flight or fight" philosophy. WRONG. WRONG WRONG
> When you watch a decoy work and work and work to get a dog to come out from behind an owner. When you watch the dog who will finally bite after several long periods of being harassed and threatened by a decoy. THAT DOG IS FEAR AGGRESSIVE - or in defense.
> ...


 I learn and learn and learn some more

And with every lesson, I realize I am never going to find the dog I want.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> I learn and learn and learn some more
> 
> And with every lesson, I realize I am never going to find the dog I want.


Karlo is that dog...I lucked out. You never know.....He isn't everyones perfect dog, but I bet he'd be everyones perfect dog. He is so endearing.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

And so did I. I wouldn't have any other dog at this time.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Very good thread, this is why I live on this forum. You guys provide so much knowledge.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Why not describe civil in terms of degrees? (vs. have it or not). Seems like willingness to bite without equipment can have degrees in terms of the willingness to take the fight to the challenger, the intensity of the bite, and the willingness to stay in the fight given increasing pressure. Wouldn't there be a variation in the willingness of the dog to accept NOT being the victor? Some eventually accept it? I think of David Winner's, (military dog handler that used to be on this forum), story about having to actually have a fight with his military dog and win, before they fostered the amazing relationship they had/have. 

Thanks to all for sharing your expertise.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I deleted a bunch of posts that were going off topic and consisted of some members bickering and challenging each other's training level and skill (grow up people!!). 

Some posts were pretty harmless, but I removed them as they were part of the off-topic discussion.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Lets bring this back; 

If so rare -its been said here anyways , it seems, there are many here however all very different.
slamduc boomer
Maxtmills 2nd dog
Emoore's BF 
Castlemaids griffin
Jenny 720 WL Belgium 
Onxy has 1 almost 2

Why so?? --perception off? semantics?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DutchKarin said:


> Why not describe civil in terms of degrees? (vs. have it or not). Seems like willingness to bite without equipment can have degrees in terms of the willingness to take the fight to the challenger, the intensity of the bite, and the willingness to stay in the fight given increasing pressure. Wouldn't there be a variation in the willingness of the dog to accept NOT being the victor? Some eventually accept it? I think of David Winner's, (military dog handler that used to be on this forum), story about having to actually have a fight with his military dog and win, before they fostered the amazing relationship they had/have.
> 
> Thanks to all for sharing your expertise.



I'm not saying there isn't different degrees of civil. My comment on "have it, or not", is about the genetic make up of it. Either the dog is genetically wired to do it. No training needed or it isn't. Some of the disagreements are coming between the "It can be trained" and the "it's all genetics" camps. I'm not saying a dog can't be shown/trained it's okay to bite without equipment. What I'm saying is that's not a civil dog. There is more to it than that. The difference is teaching a dog that's it's okay to bite without equipment and teaching a dog when it's okay to bite without equipment. Make sense? One dog has to be brought through a series of sessions to be shown it needs to. The other one already wants to bite, you're just setting the rules of when that's acceptable.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What many people are describing here as a civil dog, others would conflate with a dog being high in fight drive. (Some debate the existence of fight drive, attributing it to other inherent qualities, but that is a topic of another thread.)

Civil, in its simplest definition, is the willingness to bite the man without equipment (assuming the dog is not a fear biter). From this definition, civil is a state that certainly is something a dog can be born with or be taught. Also, from this perspective, it would appear that some dogs can be trained, or enhanced, to be "more" civil than others, depending on their inherent qualities such as degree of various drives such as fight or defense.

If you view being civil in its most basic of definitions, then the dog either is or is not civil, but it is not fixed and is subject to change depending on the individual. With that said, depending on a dog's genetics, some dogs can be more civil than others, or even more civil than themselves at a later date dependent on training. Although I am a firm believer in the genetics of behavior, nurture does play a role and a trainer should be able to enhance or suppress any trait that a dog is genetically born with.

Personally, I don't like to use the same terminology for dogs that are born civil and will bite without training vs dogs that are taught to bite the man as I think the two do not, and should not, conflate as one is genetic and can be passed to offspring while the other is taught and will not be passed on.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I guess my little ole post got caught in the cross fire.

As a wise person who has worked dogs told me, you work the dog in front of you, not the pedigree.

Since I don't work dogs (like decoy/helper) and am only learning how to be the best post I can be, I'll leave the rest up to those who put the suits and sleeves on day after day to figure it out....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Puppies are a crap shoot. Pedigrees are a blueprint of what one can hope to expect, no guarantees. The trainer / owner should hopefully have a say, based on genetics, of what type of puppy / dog they would like to train or live with, although their expectations may not necessarily be met. Pedigree / genetics matter.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You meet a few people on the forums and quickly realize that in most cases their version of good and yours are miles apart. What is rare are great dogs, there maybe one that I know of on here and he isnt part of this discussion. 

When I tell my dog to bite he does and I tell him to show aggression he does with or without equipment. It was easy to make this happen.
Is he a civil dog? I would say so.

He also carries a sleeve . Will spit it out and go for the decoy if told. 

Just a sport dog..lol.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't think that anyone said that a dog that will carry a sleeve cannot be a serious dog or a civil dog. 

People have different ways of training, with different end-results in mind. The training does not change the dog being civil or not. 

Mrs.P - 

I believe that this discussion attracted the dog trainers/owners that have civil dogs, so the numbers may seem skewed. Slamdunc will always choose civil dogs for work, Onyx's one dog and Gryffon are littermates, and their sire is Andy Maly Vah, a dog put up as an example of a civil, but social dog. (not sure if that post got deleted or not - there were a lot of them deleted). 

So that's half the dog in your list - a small sample.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

LB is not civil. If you laid a sleeve on the ground and then a helper a few feet away, she would go for the sleeve. She has learned to bark at the man and she has very good fight drive. You would have to work hard to teach her to bite the man and, IMO, it would require hurting her. 

On the other side of the spectrum is Elena who would very happily spit out the sleeve to bite the man. She is quite civil with a low threshold for aggression. Her prey drive is not very high though she likes to fight so her grips are good. 

Deja, LB's dam, is civil, but her desire to bite the man comes from a different place than Elena's (they are 1/2 sisters). Deja has high fight and had to learn that you are allowed to bite the sleeve, but the man is off limits. Her threshold, though, for aggression is high. She works almost entirely out of fight. Her prey drive was low until she got older and she had no interest in puppy circles or biting pillows or tugs. First time the helper put on the sleeve it was like a light bulb went on. She is a bully. She is 7 now, but as a young dog I would have to watch her around people because she would try to push them around. She is very sound around people, but I still keep a tight mental rein on her for the first few minutes. 

Nike, my foundation bitch, Deja's grandmother, was civil with high social aggression. She also had high fight drive and very good prey drive. She was also good around people, but, again, as a young dog I had to keep an eye on her. She was very social, though, as she got older.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lhczth said:


> LB is not civil. If you laid a sleeve on the ground and then a helper a few feet away, she would go for the sleeve. She has learned to bark at the man and she has very good fight drive. You would have to work hard to teach her to bite the man and, IMO, it would require hurting her.
> 
> *On the other side of the spectrum is Elena who would very happily spit out the sleeve to bite the man. She is quite civil with a low threshold for aggression. Her prey drive is not very high though she likes to fight so her grips are good*.
> 
> ...


Gambit is much like his mother, Elena...He was hard to turn on in protection early on, he needed that 'threat' and not the prey to get him going. The sleeve isn't real high value to him, he'd rather spit it for more fight.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Ok, I have skimmed this thread for the past day or two, but have been to busy to chime in. 

I'm going to add my two cents, FWIW. Not that I completely agree or disagree with anyone, I think some excellent points have been made, event those that disagree and seem to contradict. 

First, IMHO, civil is one way to describe temperament. The temperament of a strong dog, a confident dog that will bite a person for real, that is not wearing any equipment. Part of what I consider makes a dog civil over "defensive" is the lack of posturing, lack of big display and serious. 

I do think there can be degrees of civil or threshold levels, as with any other temperament trait, like "social." I do not think overly social dogs are actually very "civil." Super social dogs view the world differently, as a friendly happy place. IMO, to call a very social dog, "civil" is an oxymoron. This does not mean that a "civil" dog can not be social with friends and family or people that they accept. But, civil dogs are rarely very social with strangers or non family members. 

Regarding bite work and slipping a sleeve, I do not necessarily consider a dog that drops the sleeve and goes for the decoy as "civil." The dog may very well be "civil", but spitting out the sleeve and going for the decoy is not an absolute determination of "civilness." 

I hate to generalize, but more often than not, the dog that spits out the sleeve and goes for the decoy in my view is "defensive." A dog spitting out a sleeve is already in drive, agitated and biting, that is not a component of "civil" in my definition. That is a dog higher in defense than prey, a serious dog and will bite. Civil? Maybe, maybe not. 

Again, "civil" in my opinion is sans equipment. It is a dog that you look at and think, "geeze, that dog is serious." Because it has a commanding presence, an air and the dog is "on." 

It is a complicated issue to discuss, because it brings in other over lapping traits. Defense is one of those drives that is intertwined in the dog's makeup. Many of the descriptions of dogs on this thread have inadvertently touched on "defense." Defense is as misunderstood as civil or at least as hard to agree upon. 

A civil dog can have high prey and high defense, it is the balance and nerve strength that even things out and give the dog the clear head that is needed to control the drives. A truly civil dog is balanced, as stated by a few. With strong nerves that can handle the aggression. 

Next thing I see is training dogs to be "civil"? Can it be done, sure it can. If we go by the definition of a dog biting for real, with out equipment being present, sure it can be trained. Would, I describe a dog trained to bite a passive person on command as "civil"? Probably not. I see "civil" as a description of temperament, not training. 

Do I train dogs to be civil? You betcha, everyday. Can a dog be trained to bite a person for real, with little or no provocation and stay in the fight? Absolutely! We do this as well. It is imperative in my line of work, that a dog can be brought up to a situation, in a calm state, not in drive and engage even a seemingly passive person. A person to the dog that is no threat, no stimulation and completely still. Is that civil?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Nicely said.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Ok, I have skimmed this thread for the past day or two, but have been to busy to chime in.
> 
> I'm going to add my two cents, FWIW. Not that I completely agree or disagree with anyone, I think some excellent points have been made, event those that disagree and seem to contradict.
> 
> ...


 So a dog that doesn't want to bite but will absolutely do so to protect, and finish the fight, in your opinion would be termed defensive? Not civil? And that is bad not good? I am talking about biting a person not equipment. What if that same dog is highly social and only reacts when it's person is under threat? Or when a threat is perceived by the dog?

I am really just trying to learn, please explain.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*So a dog that doesn't want to bite but will absolutely do so to protect, and finish the fight, in your opinion would be termed defensive? Not civil? And that is bad not good? I am talking about biting a person not equipment. What if that same dog is highly social and only reacts when it's person is under threat? Or when a threat is perceived by the dog?

I am really just trying to learn, please explain.he fight, in your opinion would be termed defensive? Not civil? And that is bad not good? I am talking about biting a person not equipment. What if that same dog is highly social and only reacts when it's person is under threat? Or when a threat is perceived by the dog?

I am really just trying to learn, please explain.*

No, I didn't say that was "defensive." GSD's can be protective and defend their owner, nothing wrong with that, on the contrary, that is awesome. A protective dog is what we all want to some degree. But, a social and protective dog that reacts to threat, while an awesome and ideal dog, may not necessarily be "civil." They are more than likely very protective.

It is a hard concept for me to explain. IMHO, reacting to a threat does not on it's own make a dog "civil." Or, I personally would not describe that dog as "civil." 

I'm with a few other posters on the description to some extent. To me a "civil" dog reacts to a perceived challenge, not necessarily a threat. It is more subtle. What one dog or even one person perceives as a threat may not be viewed as threat by a more confident dog or a more confident person. What one dog views as an invasion of his private space or a violation of the "rules" may not be viewed the same way by another dog. We all have "rules" and so do dogs. One of Boomer's rules is, don't mess with his ears or face if he doesn't know you. Many of us have a similar rule, would you allow a complete stranger in the mall or on the street to come up and hug you and run their hands through your hair? Some folks would do nothing, others may face plant the rude nut on the ground. That is how Boomer views it. 

I can say that I think Boomer is a "civil" dog. Take his leash and try to correct him and he will bite you, he does not tolerate strangers at all, petting or correcting him. I've been in many situations that have made new Officers very nervous when dealing with people, I was not concerned. Part of that is experience, part is confidence and part is that I already had a plan to deal with things should they go sideways. I've dealt with plenty of hostile drunks that looked at Boomer and said "that dog won't bite me." Or have intentionally tried to incite a reaction from Boomer. Part of the problem with a "civil" dog is that he will not make a show, will not growl and will allow a belligerent drunk or hostile person to walk right up to us. He is just waiting for the dolt to get close enough to bite. I can tell by the body language, especially the tense pulling forward as I choke up and hold the leash tight. No barking or growling, just a serious stare. Honestly, this is problematic. I've had to give a bark command to make Boomer bark to force him to warn people, they had no idea what was going to happen. I've had to fend people off with a front kick or punch to keep them from getting bit. In Boomer's mind they were not a threat, he was completely confidant that he could handle them easily.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thank you.

I like these threads because while I know what I want in a dog, I do not always possess the words,
And when I am listening to someone describe a dog, I need to know what they are saying.

So basically my dog Bud is what you would term civil. You aren't a threat, you are a challenge. He doesn't carry on, bark or growl. He likes to bite, and he loves the fight. The harder you push the more he likes it. 
I can handle him but that isn't really what I want, close but not quite.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thanks everyone and very informative thread and what slamdunc said really hit home. This is a great thread and good to see how all dogs in a line are not the same and can be very different. Slamdunc as you described as civil described my last gsd karat in many ways. he was very silent and quiet if he felt something was a threat but never over reacted to a non threat not even slightly but would be quiet and forward and more then ready to go if there was a real threat. He was all action to make a sound would be a waste of energy. If people came up to us out he would allow a pet but it was more like he did not acknowledge them as if they were not even in his presence in a happy go lucky way. Karat only showed his softer side to family members and very close immediate family members. He was very weird with personal space all visitors were told to leave him be when he was lying down and they all listened. He never growled or bit anyone in this position but if he was uncomfortable he would get a look in his eye and that meant to back off is as far as it got if he felt his space was invaded. I always wanted him to sleep in the bed he would not even think about it he was that kind of dog his space was sacred. Stellar nerves, incredibly confident- wondered if training helped with that. As I appreciate and always will what a awesome dog he was (coolest dog ever)and at the time he was perfect for us. It is why though went with a asl for a bit of a softer dog -thinking to dial back some of the intensity but not the case in all areas such as prey drive. I am very happy with max, -who we have now and is what we need at the present time. As I have a feeling max would protect me as he is forward -I can't say he is civil or not,even if so -he is not on the same level that karat was at all. This thread taught be though that individual dogs -working lines - all lines -have different levels of ingredients civil, social, prey drive, defense drive, thresholds to make them who they are training can tweak things and build on certain aspects but genetic rules the house. Thanks again for helping me learn more about my last gsd.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a dog can bite flesh and a dog can protect and it still won't be civil .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Before everyone starts trying to fit their dog into these descriptions of civil or defensive, keep in mind what you see at one moment or one quick opinion of someone looking at your dog no matter who they are is pretty limited. At best it shows some potential one way or the other.

It takes at least a certain amount of pressure through some progression to see how the dogs hold up to really show what they are, especially in the context of a dog that is usable for service or sport, or anything like that. Jim mentioned degree's of all these things. That's why they have washouts.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Before everyone starts trying to fit their dog into these descriptions of civil or defensive, keep in mind what you see at one moment or one quick opinion of someone looking at your dog no matter who they are is pretty limited.


:thumbup:


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Is civilness a trait that is desirable for the pet/family dog?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Hmm yes i know this


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jenny720 said:


> Hmm yes i know this


I meant that respectfully, just that sometimes when we read these things its easy to see our own dogs negatives as worse then they really are and at the other end, the positives as meaning a little more then they really do.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I meant that respectfully, just that sometimes when we read these things its easy to see our own dogs negatives as worse then they really are and at the other end, the positives as meaning a little more then they really do.


Thanks Steve. Yes I completely agree


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you really want to understand genetic civil character then look into Master-breeders , such as Bungalow dogs , Matsch, Umsa, Viper 
pedigree example Viper vom Bungalow

reasons for Quaste von Ankenrutt to be a significant producing female Quaste von Ankenrütt

this is a genetic trait lost of prey/play selection

it isn't going to just show up in lines , pet-population - show population -- these things are selected for and maintained. Or not.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> a dog can bite flesh and a dog can protect and it still won't be civil .


Yes I do understand this. Never said my Pet American showline German shepherd -max is civil. I'm still learning much about him as he matures. Will he truly bite someone to protect me - yes I think so but of course can't be sure but do feel very safe he will. We have not been that situation or has that kind of pressure put on him nor am I any kind of expert in this area but going I'm going on pure intuition -not want. Would I take this as meaning he was civil if he but someone to protect me in a real threat- No of course not. Is he fit for sport I don't think so. For fun maybe maybe not. Tracking- yes. This whole thread wrung many bells and reminded me much of my passed shepherd whom I knew very well. Thanks it sounds like a interesting read.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> if you really want to understand genetic civil character then look into Master-breeders , such as Bungalow dogs , Matsch, Umsa, Viper
> pedigree example Viper vom Bungalow
> 
> reasons for Quaste von Ankenrutt to be a significant producing female Quaste von Ankenrütt
> ...


I saw this yesterday- these dogs are from Belgium?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

MayzieGSD said:


> Is civilness a trait that is desirable for the pet/family dog?


I'm going to venture a response that is more based on my reaction then experience. I think most pet/family situations would do better (less risk and less liability) with a more social dog than civil (assuming a negative relationship - one goes up the other goes down). Now some families who want that protection AND are willing to manage it might like the civil dog. 

This is based on my thought that civil requires (my words) a stepped up level of commitment, management and handler skills to avoid mishap and liability.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Before everyone starts trying to fit their dog into these descriptions of civil or defensive, keep in mind what you see at one moment or one quick opinion of someone looking at your dog no matter who they are is pretty limited. At best it shows some potential one way or the other.
> 
> It takes at least a certain amount of pressure through some progression to see how the dogs hold up to really show what they are, especially in the context of a dog that is usable for service or sport, or anything like that. Jim mentioned degree's of all these things. That's why they have washouts.



Well said, the truth is until you've been around, worked a lot of dogs and have seen them in more than one light, you really don't know. Drives and temperament are hard to describe sometimes. Some of them do overlap or are related to one another.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

OK! You guys have been busy! 



Sabis mom said:


> I learn and learn and learn some more
> 
> And with every lesson, I realize I am never going to find the dog I want.


This is pretty much how I'm feeling right now 

Ok, so in response to what I said earlier, about thinking that Carmspack had given some conflicting information, I was mistaken. Or rather, had misunderstood what she had been saying the whole time, which I think is evident in my response here:



CarolinaRose said:


> Isn't it safe to say that a dog with high levels of civility and anything less than stable, rock-solid nerves is, more likely than not, a liability?
> 
> And if you're breeding for highly civil dogs, granted you'll produce pups that vary on the civil scale. But you'll also get pups that waver on the stable-nerves scale too, right?


I was still working with the understanding that a dog could be both Civil AND unstable. Which, as I learned a few posts later, is incorrect. 



Castlemaid said:


> CarolinaRose, think of the term "civil" as applying ONLY to stable, clear-headed, high threshold dogs, with a balance of prey, defense and fight drives.
> 
> Anything less is a fear biter.


(The following is a small sample of Carmspac's following post. I took the liberty to snip/re-arrange a few sentences to allow for better read-ability. I believe the original message is still intact. If not, I'm very sorry )



carmspack said:


> don't concentrate on the bite -- concentrate on the powerful will to control and be victorious , which may or may not need a bite .
> 
> a CONFIDENT dog able to push his agenda and dominate an aggressor or a situation has NO FEAR .
> 
> ...


This sounds good to me. It makes sense. Also, it kinda makes me feel better that Civil is stand-alone from Social, as it didn't makes sense to me that GSDs had a see-saw relationship between civil-social, but that Malinois could somehow have "High levels of both". They're both dogs, from herding stock, used in law enforcement and protection. How could they be genetically wired so differently? 

Also I think further defining "civil" as ACTIVE aggression verses RE-active aggression, as in fear based, really helped clear things up a bit. Would RE-active aggression be considered defensive aggression, BTW?

So I think that I have a hold on what Civil means, and whether or not it's a trait I want in my dog (thinking yes at the moment), and then this happens:



Slamdunc said:


> GSD's can be protective and defend their owner, nothing wrong with that, on the contrary, that is awesome. A protective dog is what we all want to some degree. But, a social and protective dog that reacts to threat, while an awesome and ideal dog, may not necessarily be "civil." They are more than likely very protective.
> 
> It is a hard concept for me to explain. IMHO, reacting to a threat does not on it's own make a dog "civil." Or, I personally would not describe that dog as "civil."





carmspack said:


> a dog can bite flesh and a dog can protect and it still won't be civil .


*Wait, what?* How can a dog be "very protective" and not be "civil"? If civil is the willingness to take on a challenge with every confidence that he would win, and having the willingness to bite a person for real (without equipment), then I would have thought that a dog's protectiveness would have extended from his "civil" nature. If a dog is simply protecting himself, then yeah, he's just acting in defense of himself. *But if a dog response to a threat to somebody ELSE by protecting THEM, how can a dog do that and still somehow not be civil?*

If I can have a friendly, social dog who is able to protect me without being civil, what are the benefits to having a dog who IS civil? If what I want is a protective family companion, why would I take on the responsibility of managing a dog who might respond negatively to an overly friendly stranger (A CHILD?!) who might try to make nice and pet him? The type of civil where the dog just ignores the neutral stranger I can totally deal with (fewer liability issues). But the type of civil dog who'll try and warn the stranger (who most likely doesn't speak fluent dog, IF the dog even warns the stranger AT ALL) before actually biting makes me very uncomfortable. *Would the 2nd dog I mentioned actually be considered Civil, or have unstable nerves. IF civil, why is this type of dog ok/desirable?* (clearly indicating there's still something I'm not getting)

I'm also very interested to read the responses to this:


DutchKarin said:


> I'm going to venture a response that is more based on my reaction then experience. I think most pet/family situations would do better (less risk and less liability) with a more social dog than civil (assuming a negative relationship - one goes up the other goes down). Now some families who want that protection AND are willing to manage it might like the civil dog.
> 
> This is based on my thought that civil requires (my words) a stepped up level of commitment, management and handler skills to avoid mishap and liability.


One last thing:

V (BSZS) Quaste von Ankenrütt - This is a very beautiful, very accomplished female. I'd be very interested to know how you can read/research a pedigree to know whether or not a dog/line has what you're looking for, but that's the topic for a future post.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> if you really want to understand genetic civil character then look into Master-breeders , such as Bungalow dogs , Matsch, Umsa, Viper
> pedigree example Viper vom Bungalow
> 
> reasons for Quaste von Ankenrutt to be a significant producing female Quaste von Ankenrütt
> ...


You mean like my Elena who is linebred on Ira Körbelbach and Matsch Bungalow.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jenny720 said:


> I saw this yesterday- these dogs are from Belgium?


No. Germany.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw this yesterday- these dogs are from Belgium?
> ...


Thanks I tried to google this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

QUOTE "A protective dog is what we all want to some degree. But, a social and protective dog that reacts to threat, while an awesome and ideal dog, may not necessarily be "civil." They are more than likely very protective."


please don't get confused again -- quick answer
a protective dog , good , because we want that , when appropriate -- is REacting to a situation .

A civil dog , who can be social , does NOT have to be sharp or anti-social , will ACT , upon a situation .

When I say "social" this is in line with the GSD breed standard aloof , neutral to strangers character .

just to avoid confusion CarolinaRose you rearranged some of my words and you said 

"because I have said many many times that a civil dog 
does NOT have unstable nerves. 
That is an unstable dog . Working in defense which has two options , fight or flight.

There is no MENTAL STAMINA for pressure ."

Let it be clear then that the last line about lack of mental stamina does NOT apply to the "civil" dog , but to the UNSTABLE DOGS.

Civil dogs tend to have a lot of power in the fight . They don't tire . They don't stress in the fight . This is inherent . It is not trained.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Also I think further defining "civil" as ACTIVE aggression verses RE-active aggression"

CarolinaRose -- lol -- hate to do this to you , but guess what --- re-active aggression is sometimes appropriate , not negative.
It can be the right choice and is not always fear based.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

CarolinaRose,
There is no need to "get all wrapped around the axle" on this. "Civil" is just one word to describe a dog's temperament. Few GSD's are truly "civil." It is just one trait that is used to describe dogs. I have a young female that is a great sport dog, confident, strong nerves, high prey, nice bite work and definitely not "civil." 

You really need to decide on the type of dog that you want and research breeders and find one that breeds what you like.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> "Also I think further defining "civil" as ACTIVE aggression verses RE-active aggression"
> 
> CarolinaRose -- lol -- hate to do this to you , but guess what --- re-active aggression is sometimes appropriate , not negative.
> It can be the right choice and is not always fear based.


Oy!:headbang:


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> CarolinaRose,
> There is no need to "get all wrapped around the axle" on this. "Civil" is just one word to describe a dog's temperament. Few GSD's are truly "civil." It is just one trait that is used to describe dogs. I have a young female that is a great sport dog, confident, strong nerves, high prey, nice bite work and definitely not "civil."
> 
> You really need to decide on the type of dog that you want and research breeders and find one that breeds what you like.


I've read Civil dogs are hard to find. I'm mostly just getting frustrated with how much trouble I'm having understanding this. I supposed understanding will come with experience. I'm also trying to learn what kind of dogs I DON'T want and to avoid.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, the best thing that you can do is go and see dog's work. Go to all kinds of dog training competitions and talk to people. 

Those that have experience can see the traits and temperament in dogs pretty quickly. 

We all have our personal preferences. I like to own and work male dogs that are "civil" and high drive. High prey, high defense, strong, clear headed dogs, with lots of aggression. I like this for sport dogs and working dogs. What I like is not for the vast majority of pet owners. For females, I prefer more social, still high drive but outgoing and friendly. That is just what I like, it's not for everyone nor should it be. 

Just as some folks would not do well with a high prey drive, some would not do well with a civil dog. Some would not do well with defensive dogs either. For most folks a nice, balanced, low - medium drive dog is what works out best. That is probably what would work best for you, fortunately that is the bulk of the GSD's available today.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think a lot of confusion is still coming down to what some people describe as civil, others describe as fight drive while maintaining civil as the willingness to bite the man without equipment.

I was surprised to see next to nothing posted regarding fight drive in this thread, so I did a search and found this thread with some very knowledgeable and well respected members who seldom post anymore and are sadly missing on this thread as they discussed fight drive. 

I found it a very worthwhile reading, and maybe it will clarify the confusion for many.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/123917-fighting-drive-necessary.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That was an excellent discussion.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It appears that there is a wide range of behavior/temperament that people consider "Civil"...

I had a post that got dumped with the mass edit....which I still do not remember seeing a reason for, have seen major long winded hissy fits going on that were not censored....

When you have sport dogs, and then have dogs who WILL "bring the fight" and yet are social, stable and make excellent companions as well as working dogs, you can just see the difference.

We all have our own take on the terms "defense" "civil" "social" but we should all agree on Stablity and Instability!!!!! 

Carmen's comments on pedigree and the Bungalows are similar to what Herr Scheld and I discussed when I showed and Koered my now 12.5 year old female....her comments supported those discussions about Bungalow breedings. The influence of this line and Ex Riedstein were important to understand. He also talked about Lord and Busecker Schloss for bringing the strength back or keeping it.

Lee


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a lot of confusion is still coming down to what some people describe as civil, others describe as fight drive while maintaining civil as the willingness to bite the man without equipment.
> 
> I was surprised to see next to nothing posted regarding fight drive in this thread, so I did a search and found this thread with some very knowledgeable and well respected members who seldom post anymore and are sadly missing on this thread as they discussed fight drive.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link! I'll be adding this to my "to-read" list. It's growing!


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

To someone who's never experienced a dog who is truly "civil", asking for a description of one is clearly like asking someone to describe the Grand Canyon, or the ocean, or a sunset. Words will never do it justice, it must be experienced. 

While these dogs may be difficult to find, I think that I'll be making sure that whatever breeder I get a puppy from in the future knows that I don't want a dog who can be described as "civil". Definitely more on the social side. After 10 years of no dog at all, let alone a GSD, I should probably ease myself back into the doggie pool before potentially taking on a dog who's so serious. 

Also, I have a laid back personality, and I think if I were to get a dog who's as serious as the descriptions here, it might be a personality clash. I'll have to observe other civil dogs on the training field before I can truly know the answer to that. 

However, before I call it a day, I WOULD like to hear a response to my question here. 



CarolinaRose said:


> *Wait, what?* How can a dog be "very protective" and not be "civil"? If civil is the willingness to take on a challenge with every confidence that he would win, and having the willingness to bite a person for real (without equipment), then I would have thought that a dog's protectiveness would have extended from his "civil" nature. If a dog is simply protecting himself, then yeah, he's just acting in defense of himself. *But if a dog [responds] to a threat to somebody ELSE by protecting THEM, how can a dog do that and still somehow not be civil?*
> 
> If I can have a friendly, social dog who is able to protect me without being civil, what are the benefits to having a dog who IS civil? If what I want is a protective family companion, why would I take on the responsibility of managing a dog who might respond negatively to an overly friendly stranger (A CHILD?!) who might try to make nice and pet him? The type of civil where the dog just ignores the neutral stranger I can totally deal with (fewer liability issues). But the type of civil dog who'll try and warn the stranger (who most likely doesn't speak fluent dog, IF the dog even warns the stranger AT ALL) before actually biting makes me very uncomfortable. *Would the 2nd dog I mentioned actually be considered Civil, or have unstable nerves. IF civil, why is this type of dog ok/desirable?* (clearly indicating there's still something I'm not getting)


Other than that, THANKS FOR THE AWESOME DISCUSSION EVERYONE! :wild: :toasting:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think if you concentrate your search on some of the other terms, stable, good nerves, social, that's all stuff you can see right on the surface and if they're not good, you'll know and be able to avoid it. Civil, fight, if the dog is stable, none of that will be a problem for you. 

I know there's more to the thread for you, but just with what you mentioned about looking for with a breeder.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think your questions have been answered a few times over in the thread, but it is hard to understand the such a new concept. I'm not saying this as a put down on you in any way - a lot of stuff just goes over our heads when it is new, and after a while, based on more understanding, and personal experience, we start to understand more deeply what is being said. 

To confound all this, different people on this thread have slightly different definitions of being civil. There are breeders out there who breed sharp fear-biters, and proudly brag about their dogs being civil and appropriate for Law Enforcement. There are breeders and trainers who will dismiss high-threshold dogs as 'junk' because they don't understand real defense, and like to work dogs in prey drive, which can easily be activated by anyone who swings a sleeve around. If a dog is more civil, and not just looking for a fun game of tug with a sleeve, the trainer will say the dog is no good, etc. (Just to be clear - I'm referring to some of the claims you may come across different websites as you continue your research - not referring to anyone that has posted to this thread - I respect the opinion of all the posters here, even if they don't agree, as they all have a viewpoint shaped by their own experience, which will be different for each person). 

So, being protective is different than being civil - Labs have been known to be protective of their owners when the owner is under threat, but they are the last type of dog you would expect to be civil - being civil is a temperament trait that comes from a quiet inner strength and confidence - an over-the-top inner confidence. Again, once you have seen many dogs being worked at different levels in bitework, this is a quality you start to notice. 

My belief is that you can have a civil dog that is completely, undeniably, fully, 3000% safe and social - BUT for a newbie, looking for a pet, I would not seek out a breeder that specifically breeds for a civil dog. If I did not know the dogs that this breeder was producing, I might worry that they were too much dog for a newbie, or for someone just looking for a safe, easy-going, companion dog. 

I would still look for a breeder who breeds for working qualities, but for a balance, and picks the pups for the owners. In any litter, there will be pups that are more intense and driven, and some that are more laid-back and social. The more laid-back and social dogs will make perfect companion dogs, while the more intense and driven dogs would be a better fit for working and sport homes.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> SNIP
> 
> My belief is that you can have a civil dog that is completely, undeniably, fully, 3000% safe and social - BUT for a newbie, looking for a pet, I would not seek out a breeder that specifically breeds for a civil dog. If I did not know the dogs that this breeder was producing, I might worry that they were too much dog for a newbie, or for someone just looking for a safe, easy-going, companion dog.
> 
> I would still look for a breeder who breeds for working qualities, but for a balance, and picks the pups for the owners. In any litter, there will be pups that are more intense and driven, and some that are more laid-back and social. The more laid-back and social dogs will make perfect companion dogs, while the more intense and driven dogs would be a better fit for working and sport homes.



See - this is where I think people are mistaken....a truly balanced dog will be civil as this IS PART OF THE IDEAL of the breed. This is where the protectiveness and discernment come from. What happens is that there are dogs who are civil and NOT stable - NOT balanced, and unless a breeder REALLY understands the pedigree - there may be a pup in a litter who is civil and not balanced! Who - most importantly!!! - is not BIDDABLE and is not bonded and looking to the owner as a leader wanting to please that owner.....add to that type of dog in the pedigree a probablity to thin nerves and you have a dog who is not suitable for a beginner novice or companion home....

A truly balanced dog with drive can excel with beginners if it is biddable and has good nerves.....even if it is civil - the civil may never be seen if it is never in the situation where it is needed. 

Of course - this is the way **I** define civil.... 


Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm not disagreeing with you - but how many breeders actually understand civil? Actually understand balance and discernment, and thresholds? There was a question or two in the thread, asking if a newbie should look for a civil dog when looking for a companion dog.

I did specify that unless I knew the dogs, or the breeder and what they produced, I would not steer a newbie towards a breeder that advertises their dogs as being civil. Newbies should focus more on breeders that work their own dogs, place the dogs themselves after evaluation, and the focus is balance in the dogs, pretty much the way you describe it.

It probably just comes down again to wording - the way you say it is very clear and easy to understand.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you - but how many breeders actually understand civil? Actually understand balance and discernment, and thresholds? There was a question or two in the thread, asking if a newbie should look for a civil dog when looking for a companion dog.
> 
> I did specify that unless I knew the dogs, or the breeder and what they produced, I would not steer a newbie towards a breeder that advertises their dogs as being civil. Newbies should focus more on breeders that work their own dogs, place the dogs themselves after evaluation, and the focus is balance in the dogs, pretty much the way you describe it.
> 
> *It probably just comes down again to wording - the way you say it is very clear and easy to understand.*


Thank you.....every pup I breed is a companion first and foremost! The working titles done are a bonus and yes - striven for! Without a personal club and helper usually only 1 or 2 per litter are titled - so even though I have a component in my lines that is loosely defined or recognized here as "civil" - I would not be happy with people believing they were NOT safe as companions!!! I don't advertise them as civil - but as balanced - and as can be seen here - many are in companion homes 


Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree, but breeders like yourself are the minority. 

What I was trying to avoid is a newbie doing a Google search for civil dogs, and believing they found a 'good' breeder because someone on the internet forum said so. There is waaaayyyyy more to it than that, but people like to pick up on one thing and focus on it, trying to simplify complex concepts. 

This thread has done a good job of explaining it all, but still a lot of new info and advanced concepts for a newbie to try and take in.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can understand how researching the lines be imperative in finding what you want. It would be nice to have a thread as a guidance to do this. 
Here I go again sorry- Yes there been a few scenarios where in my first wl german shepherd from Belgium- karat could of reacted to an easily perceive threat but did not and reacted in a calm demeanor. (Two example-As screaming real estate lady barging in our house who was clearly nuts even fired from her job as she was extremely whacky but I did not feel threatened- nor was she a true threat or my sister who watched my house who we away on our honeymoon and proceeded to have a loud party at my house, with tenants calling police from the loudness, as my very reliable steady dog just lying in his familiar spot watching the madness) I in my opinion found this threshold was extremely high and his judgement in able to read perceiving threats incredibly amazing. I also know undeniabley he was similar to having a loaded weapon in the house if there a true threat occurred. He was a very calm and quiet dog with much quiet presence and incredibly disciplined dog. The only thing with him was his personal space was very important to him. He was not one for physical affection such as hugging just making it visually noticeable he was comfortable as his huge eyes(they looked liked horses eyes) popped out of his head. Also tolerated grooming. Not sure what this was as we did not have him as a pup is this a common thing in working lines or maybe he was not used to physical pets etc?? At the age of 10-12 he had pretty bad arthritis and we had to keep him in a seperate area - as when he hit that age we had then a 1 year old baby just to avoid possible issues. He is who made me fall in love with the breed.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> I agree, but breeders like yourself are the minority.
> 
> What I was trying to avoid is a newbie doing a Google search for civil dogs, and believing they found a 'good' breeder because someone on the internet forum said so. There is waaaayyyyy more to it than that, but people like to pick up on one thing and focus on it, trying to simplify complex concepts.
> 
> This thread has done a good job of explaining it all, but still a lot of new info and advanced concepts for a newbie to try and take in.


I believe all this to be true.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Most breeders don't aim to produce nervy dogs. But if you aim for the civil ideal, you might have a range of traits in a litter. One may be a "prison guard" type dog who is on everything, one may be the perfect mix of civil-social-nerves, one may be a nerve bag. 

Even the best lines and most knowledgeable breeders can produce a mixed bag in a litter or breedings Maybe one breeding is just amazing, another that looks good on paper just doesn't go.

Especially when "civil" and "nervy" ARE related, I think. I've even seen the same dog described as nervy and civil by different and experienced trainers. 

This is partly why- I think- many dogs in Europe are culled, and really culled, and why there are more quality working dogs available in Europe. Because only the best of a litter breed for real work survive, and thus, nobody can ever point a finger at that breeder for producing a nerve bag (even if they have) because the nerve bag never got out into the world. This also means there are fewer potential duds out there that could be bred. And thus the quality is higher on average. 

I could be very wrong, but that is what I've heard and seen. Culling is common particularly in dogs being bred for hard sports and real work- dogs that are "civil". 

Because breeding isn't a science and a civil-nervy-protective dogs that takes on challenges happily but considers everyone a challenge, that's not a dog that can be taken on lightly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

n


Muskeg said:


> Most breeders don't aim to produce nervy dogs. But if you aim for the civil ideal, you might have a range of traits in a litter. One may be a "prison guard" type dog who is on everything, one may be the perfect mix of civil-social-nerves, one may be a nerve bag.
> 
> Even the best lines and most knowledgeable breeders can produce a mixed bag in a litter or breedings Maybe one breeding is just amazing, another that looks good on paper just doesn't go.
> 
> ...


Good post but there are dogs out there where the most titled and "impressive" dog can not produce himself but his "lesser" brother out produces the better brother. 

I would just like to add from my own personal experience that any dog that I have ever owned with high threshholds were the dogs with bite histories due to waiting too long to spring into action resulting in these bites where my dogs with low to medium threshholds had / have no bite histories because they did / do not wait for the tipping point to make their intentions known even if they expressed that intention just by merely focusing on a potential threat vs ignoring or not perceiving such threat. I think this is a very good point for people seeking to add a GSD as a companion and protector to their home. The higher threshhold dog just might be the higher liability dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I perceive threshold - as the ability to perceive a real threat- the higher the greater ability to perceive a real threat and ignore anything else in between. Not quick to react as long as there was no clear and present danger. lower threshold more quicker to act on a perceived threat.
How can a dog with a high threshold be a liability.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> Most breeders don't aim to produce nervy dogs. But if you aim for the civil ideal, you might have a range of traits in a litter. One may be a "prison guard" type dog who is on everything, one may be the perfect mix of civil-social-nerves, one may be a nerve bag.


the same is true when any breeder of any type concentrates with a high priority on any one thing!!! The thing to strive for is consistency in a litter and balance....and avoiding a heavy dose of dogs that throw thin nerves - whether they are sport dogs or 'real dogs'.....



> Even the best lines and most knowledgeable breeders can produce a mixed bag in a litter or breedings Maybe one breeding is just amazing, another that looks good on paper just doesn't go.



Again - consistency in type - which includes nerves, and drives, must be the goal....not extreme in anything or starting with a dog who has negatives and which needs alot of A or B to come up to even a zero....males and female should be fairly even - should complement each other as much as possible before looking for compensatory characteristics.



> Especially when "civil" and "nervy" ARE related, I think. I've even seen the same dog described as nervy and civil by different and experienced trainers.
> 
> This is partly why- I think- many dogs in Europe are culled, and really culled, and why there are more quality working dogs available in Europe. Because only the best of a litter breed for real work survive, and thus, nobody can ever point a finger at that breeder for producing a nerve bag (even if they have) because the nerve bag never got out into the world. This also means there are fewer potential duds out there that could be bred. And thus the quality is higher on average.
> 
> I could be very wrong, but that is what I've heard and seen. Culling is common particularly in dogs being bred for hard sports and real work- dogs that are "civil".


oh - could write a book here!!!! It is true that there are many many many more dogs available in Europe from both working and show lines!!! They are a proven product for quick cash turnover!!!! Why cull (ie kill) puppies when there are American's and Indian's and Asian's clamoring for those pink papered pups!!! Start off picking the nerviest or least correct conformationally and ship them off....no testicles? fine, ship that one to the far east - fearful? ship that one to the West Coast of USA....(both examples that have been posted on FB or here!) Charge American prices and have to "guarantee" and pups fail OFA??? Next litter send the nervy pup as a replacement - have seen that from 3 big European kennels to people I know well!!! 

I know of 2 big big name kennels that do heavily cull - according to several SV judges who are friends with the owners - both are very old established kennels - but have still been told that nervy and yes civil pups have been sold abroad - hard to kill a pup when an American is willing to send $3500 for it just to have a pup with that famous kennel name!

If you are established, personally know a kennel owner and/or have done a good job with a pup from their kennel, you will get a good pup because they want their name out there and believe you will bring them more business....a competitor I know was given a pup from a very high profile kennel in the Netherlands....pup was drivy, but heavily line bred and became very nervy and handler washed it out....

I have gotten a couple of pups from breeders (one along with the dam!) and been pretty lucky - also was the go between on a few pups with breeders I personally knew and have gotten pretty good ones....but have seen breeders send the smallest, poorest looking pup to a friend (lots of video was available) and when she failed OFA they sent her a real nervy pup as a replacement...

The best of the litters will stay at home - and the Europeans laugh while stuffing US Dollars in their pockets most of the time.





> Because breeding isn't a science and a civil-nervy-protective dogs that takes on challenges happily but considers everyone a challenge, that's not a dog that can be taken on lightly.


But most Americans are ignorant when it comes to evaluating temperament and they think they have struck gold getting one of these dogs, they breed it and thus exacerbate and continue the train of poorly tempered dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> I perceive threshold - as the ability to perceive a real threat- the higher the greater ability to perceive a real threat and ignore anything else in between. Not quick to react as long as there was no clear and present danger. lower threshold more quicker to act on a perceived threat.
> How can a dog with a high threshold be a liability.


I define threshhold as the dog's ability to perceives a threat and degree to which they respond to that threat. 

I had a Rott that would let anybody approach, and was relatively friendly when they did, but he was a force to be reckoned with if the person laid a threatening hand on a family member while ignoring hugs, kisses, and handshakes between people. One should read that to mean that a threat could approach and take your hand or arm and restrain one as long as the threat did not strike, jump, yell, etc., the threat was not perceived as a threat because the dog did not comprehend the difference between somebody touching / holding one's arm vs grasping / refusing to let go of one's arm, unless further action was taken. One can even take this a step further and envision the threat holding a knife or gun to a person so they would not react and doing whatever they wanted such as forcing their way into your car or home and the Rott would have found this behavior acceptable not seeing it as a threat. Often, by the time the Rott perceived a threat, there was no time for posturing or growling, it was an immediate bite. 

Alternatively, I have a male now that has much lower threshholds. When he perceives a possible threat, he doesn't wait until a threat has grabbed an arm, he gives them a stare and might emit a quick low growl on approach, effectively de-escalating any threatening situation before any contact.

Personally, I prefer dog number two, one that diffuses the situation before something happens vs one leaping into action after the fact, and that is if you can get dog number one to perceive a threat.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> See - this is where I think people are mistaken....a truly balanced dog will be civil as this IS PART OF THE IDEAL of the breed. *This is where the protectiveness and discernment come from.* What happens is that *there are dogs who are civil and NOT stable - NOT balanced*, and unless a breeder REALLY understands the pedigree - there may be a pup in a litter who is civil and not balanced! Who - most importantly!!! - is not BIDDABLE and is not bonded and looking to the owner as a leader wanting to please that owner.....add to that type of dog in the pedigree a probablity to thin nerves and you have a dog who is not suitable for a beginner novice or companion home....
> 
> A truly balanced dog with drive can excel with beginners if it is biddable and has good nerves.....even if it is civil - the civil may never be seen if it is never in the situation where it is needed.
> 
> ...


the bold in the quote is mine.

And now we're back to civil applying to potentially unstable dogs and dogs being protective due to the fact that they *are* civil. :crazy:

It's amazing how crazy difficult it is to land on one solid definition of what "civil" means, and what it does and does NOT apply to. Because based on some definitions in this thread, I would not mind having a civil dog. It sounds like what a GSD should be. But then I read other definitions, and I don't want that at all. Maybe the descriptions that are making me nervous are the dogs that are UN-stable? 

I remembered part of the Breed Standard after my last post. Maybe part of the "civil" definition could include the following? 

(from AKC's GSD standard)
Temperament:
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog *must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. *

With the part in bold separating civil dogs who ARE stable from civil dogs who aren't?


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Sorry, I meant to say "The part in BLUE", not bold.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That is why I like the simple definition I learned long ago, that a civil dog is one that will bite without equipment. They can be unstable, they can be very stable, they may be social (and I am not talking a Golden type social) and they may not be social. Simple, easy and not 14 pages of explanations.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

This is the probelm when we try to discuss dogs and temperament based on only one aspect or trait of temperament. 

If I was to describe a dog that was "unstable," nervy or even very social, civil is not a word that would come to mind. 

Some folks are getting hung up on the word "civil" as if that is all there is to a dog's temperament or a needed trait or the absolute when it comes to GSD's. Most people would not want a "civil" dog, just as most people have trouble handling a really high drive dog. 

My advice would be to focus on what you want in a dog, what you can handle and live with. Don't be too concerned with a "civil" dog, look for a social, well balanced dog. 

Earlier in this thread, a question was posed of what traits do I look for in a LE K-9 prospect? I look for high prey, high defense, social to a point, civil and high hunt drive. I also look for strong nerves, confidence and serious aggression in a balanced drive package. I look at the overall dog and rate each drive on a scale of 1-10. There is no perfect dog, a good dog rates 7's or higher in each phase along with grips, gunfire and environmental testing. While I do test the dog to see how "civil" it is, I also see how social and stable it is. I also test the prey, hunt and defense drives. I then look the dog and how it perfomed, taking all the test and ratings into consideration. After all that, I place the most emphahsis on the dog that impressed me the most overall. In reality, it is the sum of all the traits that make up the dog's temperament and who the dog really is deep down.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

slamdunc - I like that .


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