# Improving food drive



## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Hey guys,

I'm curious on how to improve food drive. I'm trying the "marker" method of training, so I follow YES! followed by a food kibble. I can tell he really has no interest in the food kibbles. I'm not sure if he's not hungry enough for the food, if he just doesn't like the food (Victor adult. same thing the breeder was feeding him). It's as if the reward isn't good enough. He'll eat it if I give it to him, but if I move my hand left/right and do like a about to run away move, he has no interest in following the food.

We haven't had him a while, so I'm just doing real basic "sit" commands etc. Nothing crazy. Also trying to figure him out. He's coming up on 8 months.

He eats about 4-5 cups a day, so in the mornings I feed him 1 cup instead of 2 so he's a little hungry and has to work for the food. I'm thinking skipping breakfast all together so he has to work for kibbles. When training is over I can feed him his 1 cup.

Let me know if you guys have suggestions for me to get him more excited about food. I feel he just doesn't have a high food drive, OR he's still too new to the house (had him for 5 days now) and just doesn't feel 100% comfortable. Thanks


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I’ve been lucky to never have a dog of my own have little desire for food, but I have also always made them work for ALL of their food when they are young. If you have any interest in tracking, laying footstep tracks with food is a great way to make them work for food. It can get a little tedious to go through 2 cups of kibble doing just obedience (though I have certainly done that in the past). Crate games are another great way to make him work for food AND defelop a love for his crate. I wouldn’t feed him from a bowl at all right now, if your desire is to increase the food drive. Genetics do play a part in this, which could be part of the issue. Also, he could just need more time to adjust to his new life. You could see his actual drives kick in when he feels more comfortable in his new surroundings. I would just skip bowl feeding and make him work for everything. He’ll get it eventually!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Use a toy. Mine will work for a while for pieces of meat or cheese, but nothing works as well as a special toy. I have a tug I only use for training.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Use a toy. Mine will work for a while for pieces of meat or cheese, but nothing works as well as a special toy. I have a tug I only use for training.


Like you mean put food in a toy? I got a kong and I put his kibbles in it. Still very interest. I pretty much have to roll it for him to have food fall out, or his paw accidently hits it LOL



GypsyGhost said:


> I’ve been lucky to never have a dog of my own have little desire for food, but I have also always made them work for ALL of their food when they are young. If you have any interest in tracking, laying footstep tracks with food is a great way to make them work for food. It can get a little tedious to go through 2 cups of kibble doing just obedience (though I have certainly done that in the past). Crate games are another great way to make him work for food AND defelop a love for his crate. I wouldn’t feed him from a bowl at all right now, if your desire is to increase the food drive. Genetics do play a part in this, which could be part of the issue. Also, he could just need more time to adjust to his new life. You could see his actual drives kick in when he feels more comfortable in his new surroundings. I would just skip bowl feeding and make him work for everything. He’ll get it eventually!


Gotcha. He is just so playful outside that makes me feel he's already warmed up... but honestly, what do I know. I have nothing else to compare to LOL

I got him one of those bowls with spirals in it, so he doesn't inhale his food, but at this point, I'm ok if he does LOL.

the xlarge kongs take about 1/2 a cup of food, so it's alot of kong/kibble training to feed him all 5 cups of his food LOL.

any suggestions for that? Maybe he gets his last 2 cups at night and rest he has to work for it? My other concern is, what if he doesn't want the food that bad, and instead of his recc. intake at 5 cups, he only ends up eating 2 or 3 cups?


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## Mareesey (Aug 25, 2016)

5 cups sounds like a lot of kibble to me (I might be wrong). I'd probably be feeding 3 or tops 4 cups a day. Maybe that is why he isn't interested in the treats.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

At his age, I would not be terribly concerned if he skips a meal here and there. It’s better, in my opinion, to get him used to actually working for food so that the food becomes valuable. Don’t cater to what HE wants. Have him do what YOU want.

If, after a reasonable amount of time of trying to making him work for his food, he STILL doesn’t want to eat, then you may need to make some changes. But if you cater to his proclivities too much, he’s going to become picky with food and run the show.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No, I use a tug toy as a reward after an exercise is finished. During the exercise, I use verbal praise. For early training, like teaching Sit, I used food. I found other trainers and methods I like better, but for Sit, I used only this video. My dog is not food motivated when he is in drive but as a puppy, when he was hungry, plain kibble worked. As he got older, it did not work at all. He learned Sit from this exercise, but he never learned to stay in an Xpen. As soon as he could lift it up or push it across the room, he did.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

@LuvShepherds - I prefer to move on to rewarding with a toy, as well. But I do think it’s beneficial to try to increase food drive, if possible. Food drive is a great tool to have when teaching things like tracking or scent work. And it’s helpful to have a dog that actively wants to eat their food with no coaxing.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Mareesey said:


> 5 cups sounds like a lot of kibble to me (I might be wrong). I'd probably be feeding 3 or tops 4 cups a day. Maybe that is why he isn't interested in the treats.


That's what the vet recommended. his rough daily calorie burnt is around 1800. each cup is about 400.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

GypsyGhost said:


> At his age, I would not be terribly concerned if he skips a meal here and there. It’s better, in my opinion, to get him used to actually working for food so that the food becomes valuable. Don’t cater to what HE wants. Have him do what YOU want.
> 
> If, after a reasonable amount of time of trying to making him work for his food, he STILL doesn’t want to eat, then you may need to make some changes. But if you cater to his proclivities too much, he’s going to become picky with food and run the show.


kinda how i run the show w my kids lol. if you don't eat your food... fine. you'll eat when you're hungry. lmao


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kibble is boring. Change to food. Use Red Barn. Or Fresh Pet. Whether you use a toy or food depends on the dog. I've seen dogs with so much toy drive they can't think. And vice versa. But in your case, I would try a higher value food. Red Barn and fresh pet are complete foods so you can replace a meal with them


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## Mareesey (Aug 25, 2016)

Ah. I think I've just never had a dog who wasn't a bit obsessed with food so that was my only thought. The others are right he might just need time to settle in. Also I'd double check he isn't foraging, though there would probably be other signs of that. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think he doesn't understand the game as well. He has no idea he's supposed to chase the food. You need to teach him that.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

My dogs are kind of food-obsessed. Well, actually, the one who is food-obsessed, got the other one more interested in his food. Before I got Levi, Asher would skip an occasional meal. I would leave the food out for 15-20 minutes, and if he didn't eat it, I would put it away. Now, I have the opposite problem. Levi eats like a maniac, and Asher copies him. I worry that they're eating too fast and will bloat. I had to get them a special dish to slow them down.

For training, have you tried using treats with more value than kibble? When I'm training my dogs something new, I give them small pieces of chicken, cheese, hot dogs, or liver-flavored treats from the pet-store (don't remember the brand). If they get a lot of treats, or seem to be putting on weight, I just give them a little less kibble at meal times. Our trainer recommended that we bring at least two different kinds of high-value treats to class and to skip (or cut down) on our dog's evening meal to increase their motivation (our classes met in the evening after dinner).


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

If you want him to work for his regular kibble, I guess I would start this way: Hand feed him all his meals for a week or so. Do not ask much of him. You are still bonding and need more time to bond. Sitting on the floor with him and just feeding will be a great way to bond. Then start luring a sit or down with the food. Still hand feeding. How I started my Gunny when I got him as a very young pup. And start in the morning when he will be hungriest. Give yourself about a set time, like 15 minutes to work with him..if he doesn't want to, I would use your negative marker like "nope" and show him the food bowl, and put it up. I start that way, but mine are spoiled. The harder the task they are learning, the more inviting the food reward. But my Dutch Shepherd will work as hard for her Native Kibble as she will cooked chicken.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Kibble is boring. Change to food. Use Red Barn. Or Fresh Pet. Whether you use a toy or food depends on the dog. I've seen dogs with so much toy drive they can't think. And vice versa. But in your case, I would try a higher value food. Red Barn and fresh pet are complete foods so you can replace a meal with them


Do you mean as training food? or you mean change his diet to this instead of kibble?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I can’t count on one hand how many times in 5yrs I’ve had to use “high value” with Keystone... he goes nuts when training with his regular kibble (regardless of type)... even after meal times. I understand this is seemingly rare for a gsd and consider myself extremely fortunate.

That said... these are some things I have done early in his training. He came home to me about the same age as Chase.
- withhold breakfast
- food games (chase the kibble in my hand, toss a kibble away from me and feed upon return)
- start with very low criteria to build lots of success
- high rates of reinforcements and “jackpots”
- use an active body and excited tone
- multiple short sessions ending in a break off with a toy

All of that said, yes, genetics plays a part. You can do things to increase his food motivation but he’ll still have a genetic limit.

My older dog was not trained with food and although he enjoys it, I do tend to pick up sample bags of high end kennel and make him a mixed bag for training.

Last but not least, have you properly “loaded” your marker? (No behavior expectation, just pairing the food with the marker). It’s likely the most important piece. Personally, I prefer using a clicker and during the loading session I average about 25-30 kibbles in a minute, just to give you an idea.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

razorseal said:


> Do you mean as training food? or you mean change his diet to this instead of kibble?



Just for training  

I use Fresh Pet for tracking and obedience. Mine can't seem to tolerate any food rolls. I think it's the salt in them. I've used baked and dried liver with no problem. Cheese. But I prefer a soft, complete, food that can replace all or a portion of a meal.

And play games with him to get him to push into your hand, chase the food, throw the food to get him to go out and then come back. Part of the training is teaching him to engage with you. Look online for videos, or pay per view videos from trainers.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

His kibble is like oatmeal, nourishing and tastes pretty good but why would he do anything special for oatmeal if he wasn’t famished?

I know I wouldn’t. Find his equivalent of a Klondike Bar or skip meals and make him work for it. 

I’ve never heard of anything other than that and I’ve researched it a fair bit as my girl is picky.

ETA: I’m assuming this is a genetic low food drive dog, if not he may need more time to adjust

ETA2: I use string cheese (doesn’t always work) and freeze dried liver (Usually does the trick). Sometimes though none of it works and i have to motivate her with toys and praise. It’s just what she enjoys. Makes sense to me, even though it’s super annoying.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Fodder said:


> I can’t count on one hand how many times in 5yrs I’ve had to use “high value” with Keystone... he goes nuts when training with his regular kibble (regardless of type)... even after meal times. I understand this is seemingly rare for a gsd and consider myself extremely fortunate.
> 
> That said... these are some things I have done early in his training. He came home to me about the same age as Chase.
> - withhold breakfast
> ...


Thanks! I'll try those. I also gotta convince the wife too. She thinks it's not right for him to work this hard for his food LOL.

at first I did sit (he already kinda/sorta knows it) with "YES" followed by me reaching in my pocket to get food (about 2 second pause for bridging). He wasn't really getting it, so I reverted to just him walking with me on a leash and when he wasn't sniffing around, or doing anything except walking, I'd say YES and give him a kibble. This way he didn't really have to do anything except understand YES meant a kibble is coming. But because he's not excited about it, he wouldn't really come or be excited.

I didn't want to do a clicker because I might not always have access to a clicker. I almost got one, but I can't always have one... so still on the fence about it.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Tennessee said:


> His kibble is like oatmeal, nourishing and tastes pretty good but why would he do anything special for oatmeal if he wasn’t famished?
> 
> I know I wouldn’t. Find his equivalent of a Klondike Bar or skip meals and make him work for it.
> 
> ...


yeah good point. I guess I gotta find something that is very yummy to him. Problem is, it might take a while to find one. and that's lots of money. I would think you all had to go through this lol. I looked at that dried liver stuff and it's not cheap either. One video suggested using a coffee grinder to powderize it and dust his food with it and it will "supercharge" it.

Again, I'm new with this dog, but I had my K9 officer buddy come by... We did little bit of let's see what he can do with him, and he told me that is opinion of him is that he's going to make a great pet dog, but he doesn't have a much of a drive for anything. I see so many aggressive dog posts... He is the opposite, he'll chase you down to lick you and love on you. LOL I'm taking him to a prospective trainer this weekend to see what her thoughts are. By then it will be 1 week with us...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

razorseal said:


> Thanks! I'll try those. I also gotta convince the wife too. She thinks it's not right for him to work this hard for his food LOL.
> 
> at first I did sit (he already kinda/sorta knows it) with "YES" followed by me reaching in my pocket to get food (about 2 second pause for bridging). He wasn't really getting it, so I reverted to just him walking with me on a leash and when he wasn't sniffing around, or doing anything except walking, I'd say YES and give him a kibble. This way he didn't really have to do anything except understand YES meant a kibble is coming. But because he's not excited about it, he wouldn't really come or be excited.
> 
> I didn't want to do a clicker because I might not always have access to a clicker. I almost got one, but I can't always have one... so still on the fence about it.


Yeah so, you missed a step. Walking on leash is doing something. Not sniffing is doing something. I don’t always have a clicker on me either but it’s easy to transition to a different marker too. Basically when clicker loading it’s 25 kibble in a minute....typically one 2 minute session with a break after does the trick. If I’m out and want to use “nice” as my temporary marker... I say “nice” give a kibble and by the second nice he gets it and is trying to offer behaviors to hear the marker. Both get the job done in a pinch but the clicker is most powerful and puts him in a behavior offering frenzy... it’s quite comical.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I just RECENTLY run into this problem. So I ordered Canidae from chewy.com, but when it came, it was opened. So I called them and sent me another one (kudos to Chewy, really!) a batch is 44lb. And as luck would have it....... He does NOT like Canidae. But I'm refusing to waste all that food. It's been a week that he doesn't eat his breakfast, but he eats dinner although not on 1 seating. I've been hand-feeding him to finish his bfast/dinner. What a nightmare. But hey at least he's healthy. He's not like this with other brand, so what I can conclude... Chances are your dog just doesn't like Victor. Mine loves Pro Pac. Gonna switch back right after we finish Canidae.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Also, it isn’t clear if you’re intentionally creating a 2 second pause as a bridge, if so, that isn’t necessary. Once your dog associates food coming after the marker (think of the marker as a promise to pay), the bridge is the time that happens naturally between the behavior the click and the delivery.

To test that your dog is loaded, at the end of a loading session, wait for your dog to look away and mark that - if your dog whips it’s head back around to look at you, then he’s got it.

Second sessions for me is pretty much marking anything they try (obviously not jumping or biting), basically giving them the freedom and permission to try and offer things. Being too rigid and constructive from the start can quickly become difficult and boring for them.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Fodder said:


> I can’t count on one hand how many times in 5yrs I’ve had to use “high value” with Keystone... he goes nuts when training with his regular kibble (regardless of type)... even after meal times. I understand this is seemingly rare for a gsd and consider myself extremely fortunate.


Whoops, I meant to say that I CAN count on one hand!!


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## fionapup (Mar 22, 2018)

I haven't read through the entire thread, but it doesn't hurt at all to skip a meal at his age. For me, I would stop feeding him "free meals in a bowl". He only gets his meals if he trains with you. Even a little focus, he can get rewarded a few times in a row, and make the duration between rewarding short and quick so he doesn't have to work really hard for it to start out. If he doesn't want to work for his food, then the food goes away until the next meal time. They get the picture pretty quickly! 

If he still doesn't train after missing two meals though, you might just have to get higher value reward than kibble... I'm currently the only person I train with who uses kibble as reward anyway haha, everyone else uses stuff like Real Meat Company or Meal Toppers, or other pricier tasty things.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Fodder said:


> Yeah so, you missed a step. Walking on leash is doing something. Not sniffing is doing something. I don’t always have a clicker on me either but it’s easy to transition to a different marker too. Basically when clicker loading it’s 25 kibble in a minute....typically one 2 minute session with a break after does the trick. If I’m out and want to use “nice” as my temporary marker... I say “nice” give a kibble and by the second nice he gets it and is trying to offer behaviors to hear the marker. Both get the job done in a pinch but the clicker is most powerful and puts him in a behavior offering frenzy... it’s quite comical.


ok, I'll try the clicker. I'll get one tomorrow.

So how do I "load" him. since you said walking is doing something, and not sniffing etc.

His attention span is very short so if I don't walk him on a leash or something, he always tends to wander off.

25 kibbles a minute is pretty quick. That's 1 clicking just about every other second lol. so it's fast and continuous repetition.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

McGloomy said:


> I just RECENTLY run into this problem. So I ordered Canidae from chewy.com, but when it came, it was opened. So I called them and sent me another one (kudos to Chewy, really!) a batch is 44lb. And as luck would have it....... He does NOT like Canidae. But I'm refusing to waste all that food. It's been a week that he doesn't eat his breakfast, but he eats dinner although not on 1 seating. I've been hand-feeding him to finish his bfast/dinner. What a nightmare. But hey at least he's healthy. He's not like this with other brand, so what I can conclude... Chances are your dog just doesn't like Victor. Mine loves Pro Pac. Gonna switch back right after we finish Canidae.


so we had 3 kongs today which is about 1/2 cup of food. and 1 cup in the morning. I felt like I was still short about 2 cups, so I gave him two 1 cup feedings now. He ate them without a problem. so I'm not sure of the psychology, but maybe he's not much of a morning eater, or it really is about warming up to the house.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

razorseal said:


> ok, I'll try the clicker. I'll get one tomorrow.
> 
> So how do I "load" him. since you said walking is doing something, and not sniffing etc.
> 
> ...


Ha.... his attention span is probably null because, well, he’s a puppy.... but also... at this stage (I’m guessing) 2-3 marks per minute is boring him. It’s continuous so that he doesn’t really have time to think about anything else. You can also feed several kibble right after the other while moving backwards to keep him engaged. When you pick up a clicker, grab a bag of something tiny, stinky and soft (liver, salmon, etc). We’ll get you on the right track


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## fionapup (Mar 22, 2018)

razorseal said:


> ok, I'll try the clicker. I'll get one tomorrow.
> 
> So how do I "load" him. since you said walking is doing something, and not sniffing etc.
> 
> ...


Loading is just clicking and rewarding a lot of food in a short period of time for a certain behavior you want. (don't wave food in front of him to get his attention or reward him if he broke the behavior you wanted/looked away) So it's only continuous for as long as he gives you continuous attention.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

But also be prepared, this is what’s worked for US! There is more than 1 way and you may just want to chill with him and wait to learn your trainers style.

ETA: case in point, I start way more modest than Fiona (poster above me). I don’t remember my boys exact loading sessions... but at work, I literally just enter the dogs kennel run and click/feed until they start becoming engaged, then do the test I explained, then leave for a minute and re-enter clicking for whatever they offer (one step, two steps, a head turn, a sit, pawing at my foot, touching my knee with their nose, going to their bed)... the moment they start to repeat the same behavior a few times.... I leave again briefly, then formalize it and shape a specific behavior that I want.


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## fionapup (Mar 22, 2018)

I forgot to add in my post to reply to your first post, the idea behind using their normal kibble as a reward is giving them their meals only during training. If a dog gets free kibble in a bowl twice a day, why would he work harder to get the same thing from you at other times of the day. If you want to give him his kibble meals for free, most dogs need a different higher value food for training sessions. Only dogs with very high food drive would work for kibble for free and for training.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

razorseal said:


> or it really is about warming up to the house.


^^^This^^^

For the first time in our lives we got an older dog (10 months old) several weeks ago, who took a little longer than an 8 week old puppy to adjust to us, our home, our yard, our house noises, our routine. The first couple of weeks, we didn't ask too much of our new girl because of the adjustment period.
Even, other people in the home who are different ages, and have different personalities, all have a different interaction with the dog. Your 8 month old is trying to learn and adjust to brand new situations that he is not use to. I liken it to being dropped off in the middle of a foreign country......
you don't speak the language and everything is strange to you! 

We did a "Two Week Shut Down" before we even took her out places or put any big requirements on her. We just tried to keep things simple and bond.

The "2 Week Shut Down" theory is controversial with some, but, I think you will get some good pointer's from the articles below. 

Quote*:
"Things NOT to do:* *Here is an example*
"I introduced her to 15 people" 
" he was a bit leery but seems to like my other 3 dogs" 
"she went everywhere with me " 
All in the first few days of the new home..... (!!!) 

Two weeks later we read 
“I think we will have to re-home the new dog" Unquote 

Decompression ? The Two Week Shutdown | Looking Glass Animal Rescue 

The Two-Week Shut Down | Pibbles & More Animal Rescue 


This was an older dog in this thread, folks had great ideas for this OP: Rescuing my first Dog this weekend! 


Best of luck!
Moms


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You can unequivocally improve food drive for meals, but it doesn’t always translate into improving food drive for work because the element of competing motivations enters in. 
Send me pm.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Fodder said:


> Ha.... his attention span is probably null because, well, he’s a puppy.... but also... at this stage (I’m guessing) 2-3 marks per minute is boring him. It’s continuous so that he doesn’t really have time to think about anything else. You can also feed several kibble right after the other while moving backwards to keep him engaged. When you pick up a clicker, grab a bag of something tiny, stinky and soft (liver, salmon, etc). We’ll get you on the right track


will do. I heard of the freeze dried liver and you powderize it and sprinkle on food.

He's not into the food at all today. no interest in the kong... Even put it in a bowl... He sniffs it and walks away. come on dog! this is expensive food! lol


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

fionapup said:


> I forgot to add in my post to reply to your first post, the idea behind using their normal kibble as a reward is giving them their meals only during training. If a dog gets free kibble in a bowl twice a day, why would he work harder to get the same thing from you at other times of the day. If you want to give him his kibble meals for free, most dogs need a different higher value food for training sessions. Only dogs with very high food drive would work for kibble for free and for training.


I gotcha. it makes sense...I put some food in his bowl today and he's not even interested. Making him work for 4-5 cups of food sounds like insane amount of work. that's alot of food to feed one at a time! LOL


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Momto2GSDs said:


> ^^^This^^^
> 
> For the first time in our lives we got an older dog (10 months old) several weeks ago, who took a little longer than an 8 week old puppy to adjust to us, our home, our yard, our house noises, our routine. The first couple of weeks, we didn't ask too much of our new girl because of the adjustment period.
> Even, other people in the home who are different ages, and have different personalities, all have a different interaction with the dog. Your 8 month old is trying to learn and adjust to brand new situations that he is not use to. I liken it to being dropped off in the middle of a foreign country......
> ...


Yup. I read the whole article. I agree with alot of it, but not all of it. It talked about not even taking the dog outside for a walk. I also don't want to contain the dog inside my house and small backyard for 2 weeks. We've been taking it easy with him, but I'm also curious on his abilities, so I try a few things. He's under leash most of the time with me, or in his crate. Right now he's laying next to me while I got the leash on my arm as I type.

We still got another week


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

fionapup said:


> I haven't read through the entire thread, but it doesn't hurt at all to skip a meal at his age. For me, I would stop feeding him "free meals in a bowl". He only gets his meals if he trains with you. Even a little focus, he can get rewarded a few times in a row, and make the duration between rewarding short and quick so he doesn't have to work really hard for it to start out. If he doesn't want to work for his food, then the food goes away until the next meal time. They get the picture pretty quickly!
> 
> If he still doesn't train after missing two meals though, you might just have to get higher value reward than kibble... I'm currently the only person I train with who uses kibble as reward anyway haha, everyone else uses stuff like Real Meat Company or Meal Toppers, or other pricier tasty things.












Millie has zero problems skipping meals and still *might* begrudgingly work for her kibble in a quite room. Outside or with any other distractions? fuggedaboutit


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

razorseal said:


> Yup. I read the whole article. I agree with alot of it, but not all of it. It talked about not even taking the dog outside for a walk. I also don't want to contain the dog inside my house and small backyard for 2 weeks. We've been taking it easy with him, but I'm also curious on his abilities, so I try a few things. He's under leash most of the time with me, or in his crate. Right now he's laying next to me while I got the leash on my arm as I type.
> 
> We still got another week


I also agree/disagree with some of it. 
The good thing is the basic concept of it. People can add or subtract from it as their situation indicates.

I believe the main thing is not to overwhelm the dog while he is adjusting.

I'd be very careful what you allow the "prospective trainer" to do with your pup this weekend, since you still have another week to go!  (post #21)

Moms


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sounds like he’s still adjusting or doesn’t like his food. I probably would lay off the training if he’s not even interested in eating at all. 

I don’t agree in having him work for 5 cups of food... I believe when Keys was a pup I put a cup of food in my bait bag, did a session before breakfast, breakfast was 1 cup of food in a kong, another session before dinner, then gave dinner in his bowl.... so the kibble in my bait bag was given over the course of a day.

Again, I had no problems with motivating him for training, but I agree with cliff - “food motivation / drive” is different / separate than being a picky eater or not having an appetite. Sometimes they go hand in hand but it’s important to distinguish the difference.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

razorseal said:


> yeah good point. I guess I gotta find something that is very yummy to him. Problem is, it might take a while to find one. and that's lots of money. .


My recipe for "Meat Treats" is a little time consuming BUT a lot cheaper than a few "ounces" of purchased treats!
Make a few varieties of meat and freeze them to keep him interested!

*EASY HOMEMADE MEAT TREATS*

*Items needed:*
*Non Stick Fry Pan*
*Large Round Steak or Pork Chops or Lamb or Goat or Calves Liver *(chicken is not as firm and falls apart easily)
*Scissors*
1. Trim off all fat on the edges and in-between and if it has bone, remove that too. If using Calves Liver, thaw, and blot well with paper towel to remove excess blood.
2. Take a pair of scissors (outstanding tool for cutting meat, raw or cooked) and cut the meat into manageable pieces.
3. Choose a fry pan (non stick works the easiest) that will hold the amount of meat you bought, and give the pan a small drop of oil or a quick spray of Pam.
4. Heat the pan until really hot and drop in the meat pieces in to sizzle. Keep your heat high but don’t leave the pan unattended.
5. Sprinkle on a little garlic powder or garlic salt if desired.
6. Let it sizzle for about a minute or two then flip over. Braise the other side (pour off the juice if there is too much) and remove from pan when the middle is pink (especially the Liver or it will crumble). Place on to paper towel, blot and let cool.
7. Take your scissors and cut all of the meat in strips about ¼” wide. Now take those strips and cut small pieces about the size of a ½ of a dime, (or whatever size you prefer). _(Kids could even help with this with snub nose scissors, if they are old enough!)_

8. Place small amounts into sealable snack baggies, then place those baggies into a sealable freezer baggie and place in freezer. When you need them, take out one or two baggies, place them in the frig and they will un-thaw. Of course the dogs love them frozen too, if you forget! They will unthaw quickly on the cupboard or in your pocket for training.
The process takes a little time but saves a lot of $$ and the dogs go crazy for them!

Moms


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This is probably going to contradict a few things, but Its not meant to. The different techniques are fine, and maybe some dogs work harder for cheese of better treat, but you can't create drive that isn't there. If your dog is dependent on being hungry to do ob, I think you may be fighting that forever and too easily falling into bribing. 

The single biggest thing I've ever done that focuses drive and attention, is a clear beginning and a clear ending. With your dog, I'd step back from any formal, rigid ob and I'd just cue him with something like "Ready" and then I'd play with him with whatever he really likes for just a couple minutes. Then I'd cue him its finished, like "Done" and let him relax. 

I'd bet most of his interactions have been more along the lines of move out of the way so I can clean the kennel and be quiet, don't bark. You have to change a lot of perceptions in him before you see what he's capable of. Don't test things, its more likely to just pressure him. Once he's got a better idea of playing on cue, you can start to add in some of the formal stuff, tease him and make him work for the food, that type of thing once he has a little better idea of giving effort earns something through playing.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Momto2GSDs said:


> I also agree/disagree with some of it.
> The good thing is the basic concept of it. People can add or subtract from it as their situation indicates.
> 
> I believe the main thing is not to overwhelm the dog while he is adjusting.
> ...


We won't train tomorrow. Just meet and greet. We might try a few things like I did last night with my friend to get a general idea of him. I told her, I'm ok with accepting whatever he is. whether he's got a good drive, or a house pet drive. I can tell you that he has gotten more interested in playing w toys. I got him to half fetch... He will get the ball, come half way bakc and drop it lol. He loves biting the jute too, but won't do it for too long. I have him sit and then have him run at me. He knows the commands so he will calmly wait until I tell him to get it. I'll do a video little later so you guys can see. 

yesss yeessss, I know I got another week. I want him to get acclimated already! LOL.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

You don't need a clicker, marker word works just the same.
I have a dog who is horrible at eating and since she gets supplements with food, she has to eat it. Twice a day I take 1/4 or so of her kibble and make her work for it. Just easy stuff, sit, down, come. But it builds excitement for the food. When she is actively attentive to me and the food I put the dish down and she will eat. Then we get the treat after the food is gone. Much like kids get dessert after the plate is clean. 
I would have said she has horrible food drive but after a minute she sure pays attention to me. Some dogs just like to work for their food.
I would reduce the amount of kibble he is getting, it sounds like a lot.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Momto2GSDs said:


> My recipe for "Meat Treats" is a little time consuming BUT a lot cheaper than a few "ounces" of purchased treats!
> Make a few varieties of meat and freeze them to keep him interested!
> 
> *EASY HOMEMADE MEAT TREATS*
> ...


hmm, I can try this!


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> This is probably going to contradict a few things, but Its not meant to. The different techniques are fine, and maybe some dogs work harder for cheese of better treat, but you can't create drive that isn't there. If your dog is dependent on being hungry to do ob, I think you may be fighting that forever and too easily falling into bribing.
> 
> The single biggest thing I've ever done that focuses drive and attention, is a clear beginning and a clear ending. With your dog, I'd step back from any formal, rigid ob and I'd just cue him with something like "Ready" and then I'd play with him with whatever he really likes for just a couple minutes. Then I'd cue him its finished, like "Done" and let him relax.
> 
> I'd bet most of his interactions have been more along the lines of move out of the way so I can clean the kennel and be quiet, don't bark. You have to change a lot of perceptions in him before you see what he's capable of. Don't test things, its more likely to just pressure him. Once he's got a better idea of playing on cue, you can start to add in some of the formal stuff, tease him and make him work for the food, that type of thing once he has a little better idea of giving effort earns something through playing.


Yeah, so when I want to train it's on my time.... I guess I gotta make sure he's going to be into it first.

When it's play time. It's half and half. I can see he starts pacing around the house looking for something to do. THat's when we go outside and platy for about 10 mins. 

He is not a big barker though. He listens well. Hasn't made a ruckus or anything.

So we just went on a quick walk outside when I went to get the trash can. some little maltese came over off leash and started barking like crazy trying to instigate him. I took this as a training opportunity and I had him heel. We just pretty much watched the dog go crazy lol. He just stared at the dog like "what are you doing little guy". It was pretty awesome... except my wife pointed out to me it looked very creepy with me just sitting while the lady tried to get her dog and we just sat there so the maltese could keep going crazy LOL.

Then some beagle/GSD mix looking dog came over on a leash... dog was barking up and down, and chase still just sat down looking at the dog. He has great manners.

sorry for all these posts. I'm excited and I guess just want him to do everything right off the bat. Kind of like my kids LOL. I'll look back at these posts in a year or two and probably laugh at them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I know, I'm the same way. I want my puppy at exactly 7 weeks and I want to start things right after they pee for the first time. Besides it being on your time, it makes that time matter to them.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> I know, I'm the same way. I want my puppy at exactly 7 weeks and I want to start things right after they pee for the first time. Besides it being on your time, it makes that time matter to them.


Haha, and then there’s me who won’t touch a dog under 7 months and then is like “hmm, let me just stare at you for a month”


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Fodder said:


> Haha, and then there’s me who won’t touch a dog under 7 months and then is like “hmm, let me just stare at you for a month”


It sounds like I'm impatient and you're wasting time, Lol.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> It sounds like I'm impatient and you're wasting time, Lol.


Ooooh, burn!!
But nah, being rescues, I just like to see who they are before messing with things.


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## fionapup (Mar 22, 2018)

razorseal said:


> I gotcha. it makes sense...I put some food in his bowl today and he's not even interested. Making him work for 4-5 cups of food sounds like insane amount of work. that's alot of food to feed one at a time! LOL


It's not that bad, you can feed a small handful at a time- Or for bigger kibble, a couple at a time. If you mark and reward with higher frequency and load behaviors, it'll use it up really fast!

eta: Oh I missed the part about him barely eating his food even in a bowl... Nevermind what I'm saying then haha you'll need higher value!


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

If you fed me muesli for breakfast and then came back an hour later saying 'I am going to teach you an amazing trick and if you get it right you get...more muesli' I wouldn't be interested. If you said 'Get it right and you can have chocolate!!'. Now you have my attention. 
My current girl is quite food driven but she wouldn't work for daily rations. I have a treat bag with a mixture of cheese, sausage, chicken and her absolute favourite liver cake. (I have 'adopted' other peoples dogs whilst carrying liver cake.) I could withhold her breakfast but some of the time she doesn't eat her breakfast anyway so she's not going to be inclined to work for it a few hours later. 
My late girl wasn't food driven at all but she could hear the opening of a cheese packet from anywhere in the house. 
If you want to get your dogs attention, find something that they will work for, whether be a type of food they only get when training or a special toy.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I 'accidentally' increased the food drive in our mellow middle-aged shepherd mix...

When we went to the vet, we found that he had gone from 67 lbs to 75 lbs between September and February! So I was like, whoa, time for a diet!
His joints aren't great, so the last thing he needs is to get overweight...

I began to measure his kibble out carefully with a cup and now he gets 1.5 cup morning and 1.5 cup evening, plus the training snacks.
He is much more focused, excited and eager when training for food now. Now I can use kibble in house/backyard, and save cheese/chicken for outings. ( Unfortunately I think he might feel slightly hungry all day? :-( So maybe he needs a low-cal senior dog food. )

When we took obedience classes (positive training) we did a lot of "loading" for the sit and stay, which meant Rumo got a lot of people treats...an hour of class was like two entire sandwich bags full of treats! He almost always had soft poop (close to diarrhea) the day after. So that's one bad thing about too many people-food treats...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have an 11 year old that is not very active, and a 3 year old that IS very active. The 3 year old gets 2 cup of food twice a day, and the 11 year old gets about 1 3/4 cups twice a day. 

Both are an appropriate weight for their size. The 11 year old is oversized for a female, about 25", the 3 year old is about 23", and very muscular.

I always remember the adage from my horseback riding days - feed according to work done! Helps keep my dogs slim and trim!


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