# My head is spinning



## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Okay, I have been reading posts on this forum for months before I became a member and even before I brought my new guy home. I wanted to be sure I had the right info to raise a well mannered happy and most importantly a socialable GSD.

Some of the things I read about GSD's that lured me into the breed was that they are the 3rd most intelligent breed of dog, are versatile, VERY loyal to family (this was a big one), can be very obedient and learn commands easily, and are beautiful. 

I have read Ceasar Milans Dog Whisper book as well as watched some of his shows. I have read many websites on GSD and dogs in general. This is not my first dog, I grew up with dogs my whole life, but this is the first super breed dog that I bring into my home as an adult that can be a danger to the community if not raised properly. We have had a pug for 3 years now and he is friendly with people but has fear aggression when outside. I believe this is due to the fact that he wasn't properly socialized when he was a pup as we acquired him in the winter months and had read that extreme weather (hot or cold) can be fatal to them. He never really go out much to be socialized and we are paying for it now that he is 3 as he barks at people when they pay him no attention. 

I don't want the same things to happen to my GSD, so I made sure the pup was 8 weeks before taking him home. I also have taken him to see most of my family members, friends, vet, and all the family dogs. Though it was recommended that I not take him out before getting his 2nd shots that wont happen until he is 3 months and I also read that I am currently in that crucial window for socialization. I decided to stay away from things like dog parks where there are a high number traffic of dogs, but I have taken my pup for walks around town and even in human parks. 

This weekend will mark our second weekend togethor and I plan on taking him somewhere (park, beach, somewhere where there are people). I have pretty much been taking him everywhere with me. He has actually become quite attached to me...is this good or bad? 

At first I kept him crated during the night in a spare room we have. After a week of being there he still wasn't calming down. I read that bringing him into the room with us was the way to go. But before doing this I wanted to see "why" he was barking and crying so before using the crate I tethered him to my arm one night while I slept. I threw toys around and went to sleep. For the most part I had restless sleep but I was able to observe him night time activities. I learned that he doesn't sleep like our pug...he actually naps with playtime in between. I also had the pleasure (sarcasm) of getting his bowl movements tracked. He never really barked or cried once.

Last night I crated him in the same room as me knowing what times he now has bowl movements I kinda knew what times he went. I put him in his crate and he went to bed with no fuss. That was around 11PM. At 2am he woke up barking at me, I knew this was a bathroom call (Only because of the timing from the night before) so i took him out...he relieved himself and back he went to crate. I noticed he would start to whine a bit when he got in (had to place him in) and I would sniffle a lot to let him know I was there and he would relax. The next wake up call was 4am (rinsed and repeated), then 5:30 but I knew he could hold it til 6 so I made him wait (I knew this was the time he went #2) I told him "enough" he fell silent and barked again at 6. I took him out he went number 2 and then again at 7 after I fed him and got ready for work. 

Is it safe to say I wont be getting a full nights sleep for a very long time? lol By the way, I know my post makes it sounds like a Natgeo animal specialist or something because I was observing the dog at night but I did it cause I was curious...in reality I'm clueless. It did kind of clue me in a bit I guess. 

He is also very mouthy, I have been trying to mostly redirect the biting to a toy. At first we held his mouth shut and said "No" sternly but I later read this is not good? Kind of confused on this but the sooner he stops being mouthy the better. I dont mind it so much but my 5 year old daughter and especially my 3 year old Pug are NOT liking this. The Pug (smaller than the GSD) actually yelps (like littermates) but the shep continues because its fun to him. The pug has recently started showing him teeth and jumping back at him (not really biting but it just sounds mean) not sure if this is play or serious but I defuse it and tell them to go their seperate ways (this lasts only a couple minutes and its back to square one again). 

What worries me is that I happened to go to the "behavior" section of the forums to read the horror stories. I really am just a sucker for punishment. I don't know why I do these things to myself. Anyway, I read something about the dogs fighting within their pack and it get serious?!?!? If that were to happen in my case my Pug would be dead in only a couple of seconds. A big GSD vs PUG thats like a Lion vs Cat. Is this something I have to worry about? The breeder and everyone else has told me if the GSD grows up with my dog they will be fine. I hope so. 

I need some direction here. Am I doing all the necessary things to make sure my GSD is a sweetheart and not a statistic?

I work from 9-5 and don't get home til around 6. I'm thinking of getting a crate at my mothers house to keep the GSD in during the work week so I can walk him at lunch (closer to my job) and he will be around people (grandmother is retired and my daughter stays there during the summer). 

Need guidance I don't want to be a statistic. I'll do anything to make this work.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Sounds like you're on the right track - you're concerned and asking questions. Although I'm not quite sure what the question is because your post is pretty packed with info!

First about the pug - are they opposite sex? That usually works out better. I wouldn't leave them alone together. If your GSP starts pestering the pug, put the puppy in time out - there's another thread wtih this same issue, pup is a little younger than yours. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1135039#Post1135039

Socializing is so important but so is staying safe. When you take your pup out, don't go where other dogs go and if you do go to a park or a petsmart, carry him until 3 weeks after he's had his final round of shots.


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## HAROLD M (Mar 10, 2009)

haveing just went threw most of the stuff mouthing ,sleep patterens and all , you are on the perfect track all your doing is correct, as for the mouthing say no and offer him a toy.the mouthing now at 8 weeks is a way of playing,between 4months and 6 months adult teething starts ... the pug vs shepherd fighting is not gonna happen the shepherd wont hurt the pug on purpose, he is just a puppy , the pug by showing his teeth and "snapping back" is telling him thats enough!!! crate him when he gets too hyper and reward him while and for being calm ...you are socializing him fine and as for the shots it is 2nd set @ 2months 3 months and so on 4 months should be all of them,again and a rabies shot....the pee breaks if u let him have water threw the night he will need to go out almost right away 10mins after and 10mins after food, also while he is excitd and playing at that age he will releave him self in the house if he dont get to go outside when he stops and starts snifing and squating ....your doing fine keep up the good work and you will have a great family member....


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks for your responses.

Okay, so you say to crate him if he gets too hyper. Now this is the type of thing that confuses me. I agree this make logical sense; however, I read this would make the crate a symbol of something bad. How do I do this in a way that is correcting the pup without making the crate a form of punishment. I was a bit unclear about this.

I feed them soon as I get home from work and since it is nice out we hang out the rest of the night outside...walking, playing, or just hanging out. He doesn't get water thru the night until the next morning. I give him water with dinner, breakfast, after a walk, or after playing outside.

I was reading about the responses littermates give each other and from what I observed it's the same thing my pug is doing. First a yelp, then a display of teeth saying I'm done playing with you go find someone else. I heard this is an advantage of having a dog around a pup cause then you have someone who speaks the pups language continuing to teach bite inhibition. I just got really worried wheN I read that post in the other thread. I tried the yelp thing myself last night and he stopped biting and gave me a tilt of the head lol then he tried again and I did the same. The third time I showed him teeth and walked away and he stayed there. Lol weird how you can convey a message if u speak their language. 

I'm not taking him to any places with animals at the moment. I'll wait on that but I feel like I have to take him to some human places to expose him some more. He is so far very calm when outside in the world and I want to keep him that way. Last night we went for a walk and we discovered shadowy figures, ambulance lights and sirens, basketball player, cars, bikes, barking, and tons of other good stuff. You can see the gears turning as he processes it all in. He is so alert and calm. So far I'm loving his temprament.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh, is it healthy for him to be so attached to me? He doesn't like when I leave rooms and he's always following me around. It doesn't bother me at all I just don't want to be doing him a disservice. I rather correct any issues now than later.

Thanks again for the responses.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

For the attachment...get used to it! These dogs live for their people...I haven't gone to the bathroom in my house without a "chaperone" since December...when we brought Anna home!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Sawyer498Oh, is it healthy for him to be so attached to me? He doesn't like when I leave rooms and he's always following me around. It doesn't bother me at all I just don't want to be doing him a disservice. I rather correct any issues now than later.
> 
> Thanks again for the responses.


Ever heard the expression following me around like a puppy dog? Some shepherds are more velcro than others. My female is always with me but doesn't follow me. My male will do his own thing then get bored and come bouncing into a room looking for me.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My shadow has this strange little wagging tail now.. hmm... 

Stark (13 weeks) follows me around the house constantly when I am home.. Haha.. 

If he can not find me he will search out every room until I 'pop out'.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

What should I do when we are in the house hanging out? I feel bad having him in the crate even tho it's in the same room as us. The other dog is loose and sometimes the pup barks because of it. I let him out to run around and play with his pug brother but without warning he will relieve himself inside. Number 2 is easy to spot because he takes a while to lock and load so I'm able to interrupt him and bring him out but number 1 happens so fast there is no way to catch as he doesn't always sniff to do it. 

Any suggestions on this?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've never crated my puppies when I'm home and can supervise. that's just been 'me'.

For the pottying issues,,I would take my puppy out ALOT, before they had a chance to pee or poop in the house, and so far it's worked for us. Other times OUT would be, as soon as they wake up, as soon as they come out of the crate, and every hour if I were home (during the day),,and always make a HUGE deal of them pottying outside ))))

As for socializing at a young age, I took mine with me everywhere, but was cautious about letting them 'out' anywhere..definately avoid dog parks, I did go to shopping centers and walk the sidewalks, ..Places I knew weren't infested with dogs ...and anyone's house that I knew was 'safe'...

It sounds like you are on the right track ,,puppies are cute;, but I like when they get a little older,,those nightime potty breaks were a killer for me )))) Have fun with him!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Jakoda,

That's kinda what I have been doing but it seems that even if I take him out and he relieves himself the minute we go inside I'll let him hang out on the living room floor with a toy and minutes later he is peeing like a racehorse. I read that everytime the pup pees in the house it sets your training back a couple of steps. That is my biggest fear. I don't mind picking it up I just dont want to be set back on any training. I still don't see how the pup is to know that he cant go inside if he is never corrected while he is doing it inside. How do they make that seperation?

Here is another obstacle I dealt with this morning. The whole weekend he was great. Not on mistake in his crate. I woke up all hours of the night with him. Last night I only had to wake up twice. Once at 4:30AM and then again at 6AM to take him out. He went both times. At 7 I wake up and feed them and then walk them. I did that and then crated him while I got dressed for work. I come back to take him out one more time before I leave for work and he has peed in his crate!! I'm so confused as to why he can go hours when Im not there to walk him and even at night he can hold it pretty good but then other times he doesn't even give a warning and its just BANG there it is. Is this just like puppy syndrome? Does he not even know its coming or something? I took him out to clean his crate and I put him back in while I went to throw the used paper towels out and then I come back to his crate and BANG he did it again!!!! 

That's how my Monday morning started. I don't think its going to be a good day today.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Last night he woke me up only once to go out at around 4AM. I got up grabbed the leash and as I was letting him out of his crate I noticed he had already peed inside his crate. I took him out and he did number 2. I don't know why he doesn't hold his pee or always alarm me when he has to go. Sometimes he does and we go out and he does it outside other times like last night he gives no warning and I have to clean the crate up. Are these accidents or is he getting accustomed to peeing in the crate?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

First, how big is the crate? If he has enough room for a sleeping area and a bathroom, he'll pee in the crate. Otto used to use his crate until he was about 4 months old. Never had accidents in the house, just in his crate.

Second, what are you cleaning the crate pan with? If it's anything with ammonia in it, it will smell like pee to him so he'll pee again. Need to get an enzyme cleaner like Nature's miracle to clean the crate pan.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Sun,

His crate size is perfect for his size for now as a puppy. He is actually starting to outgrow it. I'm already looking into setting up my 42" crate and blocking off a section until he reaches his full size. Right now he is in a much smaller crate. 

The cleaner might be the problem. Im actually not sure whats in it as my wife is the one who handed it to me I dont even know what it is to be honest I just know it smells like oranges. I'll take a look when I go home and pick up some of this enzyme stuff. Maybe that's why he pees and doesn't poop in his crate.

Thanks


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while it certainly may not be the case, he could possibly have a urinary tract infection, (altho I suspect they occur more in females than males)..which will cause them to have to 'go' ALOT and close times together..so something to also consider..

I agree with Jenn about the cleaner, but may be your using an enzyme based one already..I use a product called "OUT",,it's in the pet section of walmart, smells good and works great for removing stains/scent..it's also not expensive ))

His nightime habits seem good , I don't have much of anymore to suggest, other than hang in there, and keep doing what your doing!
Maybe leave him outside longer even after he potties..???


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I had my wife check the cleaners we use and she said that neither one of them had ammonia in them.

To top it off, this morning at 5AM I hear the pup bark. I wake up knowing hes probably barking to go out. I get my shoes on and get his leash, I open the door to his crate and he comes flying out. As he comes storming out I get a whif of the god awful smell (It was dark so I couldnt see inside the crate). I turn the lights on and sure enough he pooped in his crate. This is the first time he had popped in this smaller crate and he gave no warning. I don't get it really. I always take him out at night when he barks to let me know he need and outing. Then I get no warning. 

7Am rolls around and he barks I try to get my shoes on quickly and go to grab the leash upon my return I find him squatting in the cage peeing. I didn't correct him or say anything because supposedly it was suggested that I stop correcting for this reason. I'm starting to wonder if that was in fact the correct advice. I still fail to realize how the dog makes the distinction between going to the bathroom outside or inside if he's not corrected from going in the bad one. To him it seems like its all fair game, at least thats how I would look at it if I were him. 

On another note, last night I was outside with him when 3 young girls come running up to us (on my lawn) to see the puppy and they each have big dogs that are storming in front of them. Goldens, Collies, and I cant remember the third. Anyway, naturally my pup was scared and stepped back behind me barking at them. I told him it was okay and told the girls to stop advancing on me and my dog. They listened and one of them handed the leash to her friend and asked if she could pet him. I told her to come slowly and she did and the pup was fine with her but wanted nothing to do with the 3 big dogs. I didn't press the matter but wondered if now he is going to be on the defensive everytime we meet big dogs. He is normally confident and curious about meeting or discovering new things.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Sawyer498I still fail to realize how the dog makes the distinction between going to the bathroom outside or inside if he's not corrected from going in the bad one. To him it seems like its all fair game, at least thats how I would look at it if I were him.


He'll learn the distinction if you're making a HUGE big deal about how wonderful it is when he "goes" outside. Are you praising him enthusiastically, throwing a verbal party each time, giving him a yummy treat as a reward? If not, start now. If I catch mine in the act of a squat I do use a verbal correction ("ah ah") and clap my hands sharply to interrupt and whisk them immediately outside to hopefully continue. It will take some time - could be weeks, could be months, but it will sink in. 

Also, rather than stopping to put your shoes on and go get the leash, try leaving the leash on top of the crate so it's right there, and have some slippers or something you can step into very quickly. I even went outside in winter barefoot when my dogs were puppies. I got Dena in mid November, Keefer at the end of October, and Halo in mid January, so all three were housebroken in the winter, but fortunately it's not that cold here and it doesn't snow. I kept a robe at the foot of the bed so I could get up, toss it on, and be out the door with puppy in seconds. I opened the crate door and attached the leash before letting puppy out and then RAN to the door. Don't allow him time to stop and squat. Pick him up and carry him if you need to. 

And be patient! He's got a tiny little puppy brain and a tiny little puppy bladder. Both will grow.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Yea, I make a big deal and give praise when he goes outside, I dont have treats with me during the night when Im trying to get out the door as fast as possible. I have sneakers that I slip on that sit right next to his crate and the leash is also sitting in close proximity to the crate. 

I stopped making noises and correction when he goes inside. I just let it happen and take him out afterwards. Someone told me to stop making any noises and just clean it up and walk him out. 

I'm at work right now I wont get home until 5-5:30 he stays the entire work day in his crate without messing himself. I'll come home and take him out and he lets loose. I don't think its that he cant hold it. I think when Im there he knows Im going to clean it if he does mess himself and when Im not there he knows he'll have to really sit in it all day so he HAS to hold it. He is obviously making some connection to this whole thing because he hasn't messed himself once while I'm at work and he is in their for many more hours without break than he is during the night when I can actually take him out. What do you make of this? Is it pure coincidence that he is only messing his crate when I'm there?


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Update: I got home yesterday and the pup had soiled his crate. While this is not technically good news at least I know these episodes aren't due to me being there anymore. 

He was like a pooping machine yesterday! I got home and he was sitting in it, I take him to the tub bathe him real fast and he poops on the BR floor, I take him out the BR so I can clean the floor and put him in our second crate in my office...He poops in there! Finally, I run out of places to put him and take him outside and he poops AGAIN! How the **** does one little body produce so much crap! I couldn't top him on a good day and I'm WAY bigger than him. 

Anyway, Later that night I started to give the rewards after a good potty outside. He only peed the rest of the night because he had no poop left in him so I kept rewarding him for a good pee. After the second bathroom break and treat, he would pee then run over and sit in front of me waiting for the treat...maybe good things will start happening now. Early this morning, I took him out of his crate and fed him in the kitchen and gave him some water. I gave him some time to eat (maybe too much) because I got back and he had pooped but no pee. Hhmm, I took him outside and he quickly ran to find a spot to pee and came back for a reward at which point I had forgotten to bring one and gave him tons of praise instead. I'm wondering if he has connected peeing outside to rewards but hasn't connected the poop and maybe that's why he held his pee for outside and didn't just release in the kitchen along with the poop. I will be exploring this issue today for sure. I just need to remember REMEMBER to bring treats outside with me!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well we can analyze till the cows come home but only "he" knows the answers )))

Ok, this is what I would do,,put your treats in a coffee can or some air tight container and leave them outside so they are accessible when you are out there,,

When I got masi last year, hadn't had an 8 week old puppy in 10 years,,it was culture shock needless to say ))

THe crate was IN my bedroom. I kept her on a tight schedule as far as meals were concerned. she always had access to water, altho some nites I did take the bucket out of her crate since she developed the habit of sloshing it all over )).. 

I also tried to stick to a schedule when it came to nite time, 10 pm was the last time out, then into the crate, up until she was around 14 weeks old, I would get myself UP and take her out atleast once in the middle of the nite,,OR if she whined and I knew it was a "potty" whine, (which you become used to , I jumped out of bed, opened the crate, and scooped her up, and carried her outside pronto..(and hey I am on the second floor doing this with 3 other dogs chasing me wondering what I"m doing? ) 

5 am was up,,outside, inside for a time,,breakfast and back outside,,

I have had the luxury of having alot of free time to spend with all my dogs/puppies so that helps..I would say, if you can find someone who can come over in the middle of the day, that would be a help. 

Puppies poop and pee ALOT, and even tho he may hold it one day for eight hours, that was just "luck",,,when they are this young, they really can't hold it very long ..

I think keeping the treats outside and treating after he goes outside, is key for him (as it sounds)..

YOUR mistake was not supervising his eating, (when he pooped in the kitchen this morning)...supervise, supervise, supervise )))

Tho these early days most of us become quite sleep deprived, frustrated and irritable,,I swear in a month, you'll forget all about it ))) Just be glad it's summertime !!!

Good luck,,
diane


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Maybe I missed it but have you taken your puppy to the vet to check for parasites? This sounds like a medical problem to me.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Jakoda,

I will bring some treats down and hide them in the corridor to the outside door. I also live on the second floor of a 2 family house and my other dog chases me around wondering why I am taking the new dog out so much. I think something went screwy in his head because now he is starting to go inside! He's been housebroken for quite some time now too. 

Your schedule sounds like mine except he does the doggy bark/whine thru the night to go out. Sleep deprived is not even the word for it. I swear I woke up less with my daughter when she was an infant. I hope it all pays off at the end.


Bowwow,

He has been to the vet and checked for worms and he was clear for worms and checked out ok.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAOk, this is what I would do,,put your treats in a coffee can or some air tight container and leave them outside so they are accessible when you are out there,,


Yep. I have a little bag of Liver Biscotti (crunchy cubes about 1/2" square) on top of the crate, so I could grab it if I needed to, but usually I use those as the treat for going in the crate at night. 

I also have a container of biscuits on top of a cabinet in the garage near the door I take them outside, and I used to leave a bag of other treats there on the cabinet too, something yummy like jerkey treats. Very easy to reach out and grab the bag as we go by on our way out the door, and no remembering required.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Update: I started the treating after a good potty. Here is what happened. I took him out he relieved himself I gave him praise and a treat I could tell he was like "hhhmm, treat for a potty?". The second time we went out for a potty as he was relieving himself I would say "good boy" but not enough to disrupt him. As soon as the lost drop hit the ground he was sitting front and center waiting for a treat. This behavior continues; however, he still sometimes goes in his crate. Are these accidents normal puppy bowl movements? He is 11 weeks yesterday. I am going to continue this way with the rewarding and praise. 

This weekend was really nice. We took him to a park and hung out the whole day there watching the people and kiddies go by. Then we went to a friends house who has a 9 year old GSD. They have the most obedient dog I have ever met. It was inspirational being there.

Yesterday, we went to the beach. It was funny watching him put his paws on the sand for the first time. The minute we went from grass to sand he stopped and looked down and had a "what the heck is this moment!" After a quick sniff and a couple of pats we were on our way. A funny but painful experience was when he first saw our feet sink into the sand. He started to dig and dig until he found our feet again. The tops of our feet would get scraped by his little nails. Then once he found them he relaxed until they disappeared again. I took him to the water and you know he wanted nothing to do with water at first. Lucky for me there was another dog a couple of feet down that he would see go in and out of the water. Plus my family ran in and splashed and moved around having fun and it wasn't long before he got the nerve up to walk in himself. I followed along side of him and when he walked to the point where the water was almost at his chin I sat down and hung out with him in the water til we both got cold and ran out to dry off. 

We had a blast this weekend and it's these kind of weekends that make the waking up and cleaning poop all worth it for me. I also got my hands on a couple of books by the Monks of New Skete. I have been reading through one and am half way done with it. 

I am trying my best, I just hope thats enough.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It looks like you're getting there with the house training. Congrats.

Now, on those Monk books - they are a bit out of date in some respects. I'd look for something from someone like Pat Miller for positive training techniques. The Monks do offer some very good ideas just NOT their obedience training/correction methods.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I hope your right middleofnowhere but I honestly don't see the light at the end of this tunnel. Last night I walked him before bed (note: this dog goes to the bathroom everytime I take him out. He is comfortable going potty outside) I go to sleep and for the first time in almost a month I wasn't woken up at some crazy hour of the night. I woke up at 6am and surprise surprise he had poop all over his crate and started barking for me to get him out. It was a mess. I'm pretty sure I need to go out and buy more Vics vapor rub ointment. It's the only way I can stomache the foul stench. 

To top it off, he's always knee deep in it so he has to go from the crate straight to the tub. Barf! 

Why can't he just go outside evertytime....I rather sleep an hour a night than have to wake up to clean what I had to clean this morning. Cleaning the dog is the easy part. Cleaning the crate is a traumatic experience at best and to think it's not even close to over is disheartening and disgustingly saddening. I'm still having day terrors from the whole experience this morning... Brb I think I just threw up in my mouth.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

At least you have a sense of humor about it!!

Next time he goes for his vax, take a stool sample in. Even if they've been clear for worms, they can still get them again. What are you feeding him? A quality diet w/out fillers will have less waste and that means less poo. Not sure if you've read up on the nutrition threads. My dogs are fed raw, and their poo's are the size of a yorkies w/ very little odor.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

No, I haven't looked into that thread yet. I guess I will be going there as soon as I'm done with this post. I don't know what a raw diet is. I gather it's just normal food thats good for the dog? 

Last night when I got home I had the worste thing waiting for me in his crate. It was so bad, if I had a biohazard suit and gas mask I swear I would have used them. 

Someone needs to invent a better system to this crate business. It is way to difficult and time consuming to clean these wire crates. They are bulky, heavy, and are just a pain in the butt to clean. Sure the pan slides out but that doesn't help much when there is crap smeared all over it and falling off when you carry it. Oh man, the visuals are making me gag. 

last night he barked and let me know when he was having a bowl movement. I woke up 3 times before morning but he had no accidents. IF ONLY he can do this every night! I didn't have to clean up anything this morning. Everything went so smooth.

Going to go look up a raw diet!!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I said this before in the thread but maybe it got overlooked. *This is NOT normal and I do not think this is a food issue.* I think your dog has a medical problem. I would take a stool sample into the vet and have it tested. He could have parasites, giardia or a number of other things.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I am inclined to agree with Ruth. 

Puppies are forever ingesting things that make can make them have upset tummy and possible disease. We just got through a case of the puppy poo, but we're talking 2 days of up in the middle of the night and crate mess. (BTW I prefer plastic crates for my puppies because I just pull them outside, hose them out, spray them down with Nature's miracle and then dry= about 15 minutes) I fasted the puppy for a meal or two to give him some time to reset and gave him some Pepto Bismal and a little pumpkin and now we're back to pooping solid and holding it. 

For a puppy to have to go that often, and for it to smell that foul and be all over the crate it sounds to me like there is more going on than a simple housebreaking problem.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

The vet tested his stool when I took him in. He said that his stool looked fine and gave me worming meds to prevent them. I found out today that the stool is not always soft. I walked in today and he must have just relieved himself and I witnessed him jumping around in it and squashing it all over the place. It's really gross. Today's didn't smell all that bad but previous ones were..... Well, I rather not bring it back up I'm still trying to get over it.

I should be coming up on another vet visit soon so I will have them recheck his stool.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Update: I bought Sawyer a new Kennel over the weekend. He had been using a wire crate (that I couldn't stand) I want to burn it until there is nothing left of the useless thing. Anyway, (fingers crossed) he hasn't really had any accident yet; however, I am still waking up at all hours of the night to take him out. I realized one thing though, during the night he only goes out to pee. He doesn't poop until early morning. When he does go to the bathroom he immediately comes over with his head up high waiting for praise so I pet him under the chin and tell him he's a good boy. Yesterday he held it all day while I was at work. For some reason though I get the feeling he will mess up today. I don't know why. 

Yesterday was the first day in a long time that he has held it for so long. I don't know why the little bugger wont hold it for me at night. *sigh* Sunday he will be 13 weeks old. Someone give me some words of encouragement because I'm dying over here. I feel like a zombie never getting more than 2 hours of sleep a night. To top it off I am rewarded with me and my family being bitten and chewed on. Though sometimes he has been known to give kisses but too many kisses and they start turning into little shark bites. I have been redirecting him to toys, but that doesn't hold up very long. When do they snap out of the biting?


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

It will all pass soon enough! I know it seems so hard, but you'll soon be rewarded with a fantastic dog you couldn't imagine living without--the best things in life often seem daunting, but they turn out fantastic!!

I think Anna was about 14-15 weeks before we really got out of hard biting, but it took a lot of training. She still lightly mouths us now, but it's just a show of effection for DH and I. 

Keep going strong! It will all be worth it, I promise!!


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## riorider (Jul 21, 2009)

Healthy stool really shouldn't be THAT disgusting. You should have him checked for an intestinal infection or malabsorption disorder.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

It nasty because he squishes it all over the place. When it comes out it look like...well regular dog poop.

He hasn't had any accident until this morning and that's because he woke me up every 2 hours to go pee. I was sooooo tired by the morning that when he barked to go out I told him to sshhh and 5 minutes later BANG it's in the crate. He never holds it if I'm there not even for a couple of minutes. It's so aggravating because he has been holding it all day long when I'm at work. I know the nightshifts are killing me and then to wake up and have to clean the crate anyway is becoming a bit much.


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## Chantell (May 29, 2009)

What time of the day/night are you feeding him?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I would look at what you feed him and when you water him too...For me it's ALL about creating a schedule. If I find that I'm getting accidents I adjust my schedule. For example- If I'm getting middle of the night accidents I would up the number of opportunities to pee prior to bed and move the liquid or food intake cut-off earlier. The idea for at night being that they are so completely empty that there is nothing left to get out! 

My schedule...

My puppies are 17 weeks and they are each eating between 3 and 4 cups of Wellness LB puppy a day which is giving me 2-3 poops a day...
They wake up at 6:30am...

They go out quick just to pee and then eat at 7am. They get water when they eat. (Also, I have one who will drink whatever is there regardless of how thirsty...So I regulate how much water he gets at a time. He gets plenty, but I won't let him drink a whole bucket because then he'll have to pee again in 30 minutes. I will give him ice cubes in his crate.) 
Then they get a walk where they poop and hopefully pee again. 

If we are home they get out around 11 to pee. 

Then they usually need to out again midday between 1pm and 2pm. They will poop again at this time. They get offered water again.

They go out again around 6ish just to pee. The come in to get fed again. Offered water again. They go out for a big walk/play time approx 45 minutes each puppy. They poop and pee then. Offered water when they come in- Last time. 

Out again to pee around 9pm.

Out again to pee around 11pm. Done for the night.


*Some other notes- When puppies get excited they have to pee. As soon as they know that I am home I CANNOT wait... I put my bag down and get those puppies OUT. They have been holding it and if I wait too long they will pee all over the crate. This also holds true for if they have an impending bowel movement as well. 

Also just wanted to say







I sympathize. 2 puppies kept me from getting much sleep for the first week or 2 and I was a total ***** without getting any sleep. My brain left and my temper was short. But hang in there. You will get it and it will be OK.


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

Echoing the above. I cut off water about an hour- hour and a half before bed. Then they go out for one last pee and are set until morning. When Lainey was too young to hold it all night, I was up at 2-3 AM for one trip out during the night and that took care of her and the accidents. All these stages come and go- maybe not soon enough for some of them. Hang in there and someday you'll be wondering where the time went!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

JKlatsky, great schedule! That is exactly what I would recommend in addition to more interaction and exercise. Training should be happening daily and 15 minutes twice a day is a good amount for a young pup.

You can also choose a spot in the yard to take the pup to everytime (including after accidents) and start a "potty" command. This will help a lot. Treat every time for poo or pee outside! This will greatly improve the speed and consistency in your results!

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I will break down a weekday for you guys to evaluate and critic so you can tell me where to adjust my times. 

Ever since I got Sawyer I have been waking up at 6AM. As soon as I wake up I take Sawyer out to use the bathroom. He will releive himself and then we go back inside and then he eats while I get showered and dressed for work. Once I am done I will go to the kitchen where he is either done and waiting for me or is just finishing up his breakfast and then I wait for him to finish and we go on a quick walk. During this time I will have him use the bathroom once again before I go to work. 

I leave the house for work at around 8AM on the dot so that's when he goes into his kennel. Summer hours I have been able to get home at around 5:30 from work. Last night for example, he had not gone in his kennel, so I took him out and he relieved himself then we went inside so I could give him dinner. By 6PM he's done eating and drinking for the night. After 6 most of the time spent is walking, playing, training, and we have no accidents while we are home with him. 

At around 10PM he is tired and ready for bed knocked out in his kennel with his legs up in the air while laying on his back or something. I take him out one more time before kenneling him and he has also been going during the times we are outside or every hour on the hour while we are playing, training, or on a walk. He goes to sleep and then so do I.


12AM....bark bark... cry cry. This mean I need to get my butt up to walk him. I take him out, he pees. 

2AM....bark bark....cry cry. Same thing he is sitting in his crate waiting to go out to pee. 

4AM....rinse and repeat.

5AM...Yup, this hour is crucial and usually when I am dead tired from all the constant wake up calls. Between 5-6 he will go poop. Not sure exactly when he does it but I know that if I dont wake up for the 5AM shift or the 6 I'm cleaning poop.

6AM...wake up time. He sees daylight and wants to go out and then eat. 

These hours can vary a half hour before or after the ones stated but he is normally on the money. I swear he came with a built-in Timex.

My question is, am I promoting these night time bathroom breaks by allowing him to do it OR am I right in taking him everytime he has to go? If I dont take him, I have to clean his kennel. If I do take him, I'm up all night long and he gets used to this schedule.

What do I do?


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Sawyer498
> I leave the house for work at around 8AM on the dot so that's when he goes into his kennel. Summer hours I have been able to get home at around 5:30 from work. Last night for example, he had not gone in his kennel, so I took him out and he relieved himself then we went inside so I could give him dinner.


So he is going 11 hours having to hold it during the day and he is only a little over 13 weeks old? That's a long time for a pup his age to have to hold it. And since you are home at night and he knows it, it almost sounds as if he is making sure that at least then he doesn't have to try and hold it so long.
Is it possible to go home at lunch and let him out, or get someone to do that for you? That relief for a young puppy during the day may make a world of difference in his schedule at night.

ETA: My pup is coming up on 17 weeks and I don't think he could easily hold it for 11 hours or more. I usually let him out around 11:00 at night for the last time and he is OK til 6-6:30 in the morning. But someone is home all day and he has plenty of opportunities to go out then.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

There is no one around to take him out during the day. I would even accept the fact that during the day he has an accident because of the extended times but what about the amount of times he makes me get up out of bed to take him out? I know he's a puppy but it seems a bit excessive. You said you put yours down at 11 and he is good til 6-6:30....That would be a dream!!! I'm up ALL hours taking him out to use the bathroom and he goes every time so I feel bad not taking him out and making him hold it but I might as well considering he's going if I make him wait even 5 minutes. I'm at a loss on this for real.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Part of it could be he is alone all day. I would give him multiple chances to go potty before you go to bed. I would also challenge you to actually keep a written log of when he goes potty. That way between 6 and 10 you know if he has gone, which will help.
He should go poo before he goes to bed basically. Cut water, food, treats out at 8 pm. 
You can cover his crate with a blanket at night so that he is not woken up as easily and he will know it is bedtime. (only with plastic crate so he can't chew the blanket).
He should have another vet visit coming up right? A fecal will be helpful just rule out anything health wise.
Don't forget your treats, potty command and potty spot!!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

ps I may have missed it, but what food and treats is your pup on?


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I guess I am lucky, Lulu was crate trained within a few days at 3 months old where she slept half the night, one potty break, and then back in and through the night with no complaints. After a week she began to sleep through the night in her crate as long as she didn't have to go potty, which I learned was her call for me to take her out as she only cried (cries) if she has an urgent potty matter. Now at 6 mo's she sleeps from around 10pm to 8am every night in her crate without crying unless there is a potty issue. 

The advice in your situation I would give is learn her potty times at night and only take her out at these times and put her right back in. If they learn crying will get them out of the crate they will always do this and learn it quickly. Lou used to cry at 5am to go potty the first month and I would take her out and then when she was done I would say "back to bed" and she went back in. Now, if she ever has to get up that early to potty I don't need to say a word and when she's done she just goes back in her crate on her own, like she knows her "wake up and play" time.

As far as putting her in the crate when doing something bad. When Lou starts going crazy doing the running like crazy thing and mouthing my daughter I tell her she needs a nap and put her in her crate until she calms down. It hasn't effected her adversely at all, in fact, she goes in her crate still on her own when it is bedtime every night. For her it is her bed and safe place. One time she hurt her paw and the first thing she did was hobble into her crate telling me that she sees it as her safe place. 

Last week when Lou wouldn't listen to me I just looked at her and pointed at her crate and she ran right into it and layed down. She knows it's her place to calm down and also her bed at night, other than that she is never in it since she is fully housebroken now she has free roam all day. So for us it is a training tool as to "you are not listening, it's time to go take a nap and think about it"







and seems to be working well for us, she is in no way adverse to it and goes in on her own every night like clockwork.

Not sure any of that helps, but is my experience and how we work with the crate. BTW, it is a large cage crate for large sized dogs, not a porta kennel.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks for the help everyone. 

From 6-10 he does use the bathroom sometimes multiples times. I'm basically outside the whole time with him as soon as I get home. Last night we were on a walk when he took his last poop for the night. He went to bed even earlier last night (tired from the walk) and last night I was so exhausted I only woke up one time to take him out at 12 which he did NOTHING (at least I didn't see him do it and his crate had pee in it). I decided to then ignore him until early morning. Around 6 when he started barking I got up checked his crate and it was clean. HHHmmm. I took him out and he peed but still no poop. Brought him in and then he ate and I got ready for work then took him back out and he poops. His poops look solid and like regular poops. 

I'm leaning towards the food i am giving him. I normally give him dry Kibble. Last night I gave him a bit of dry kibble but also canned meat. It seems he pooped less but last nights poops wasn't as firm as usual kinda soft but I knew it had to be due to the canned meat; however, he pooped less. I'm thinking of switching his dry kibble soon. I have specialty dog store down the street from me. I'm going to see how much they sell Taste of the Wild for. The food he is currently on is Purina Alpo. 

The bag is almost empty so I have been doing research on new dog food and found that TotW is one of the better brands and is sold down the street from me. I just hope it isn't too expensive. What can I add to vary his diet a bit? I like to throw in some canned meat from time to time to give them something better to eat. Dry Kibble all the time can't be any fun.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

TOTW is a good grain free - my adult is on it. There's a thread somewhere on here with an e-mail from a TOTW representative regarding using it for puppies. From what I remember in the post, the calcium levels are higher than what is recommended for a large breed puppy. But then I've also seen posts where people are using it for a puppy and say the pup is doing geat. So information is a little contradictory.
If you want a grain free kibble, I think the choices that have appropriate levels of calcium (and phosphorous) are Evo and Blue Wilderness. Most of the others seem to have calcium levels that are too high.

I'm using Blue Wilderness (adult) for Caleb right now. I paid about $50 for a large bag at the pet supply store in my area. As a comparison, TOTW runs around $44 in my area (CT). Keep this in mind when you look at your options, the TOTW is about 366 calories/cup versus 586 calories/cup for the Blue Wilderness. So you would be feeding less of the Blue Wilderness to provide an equivalent amount of calories.
Caleb also gets about an ounce of raw meat (I use Primal grind for convenience) with his meals. This was my breeder's suggestion. And I add water to his meal so it's kind of like a gravy.

There's a lot of other foods out there that are better than the Purina.

Good luck - maybe you're turning a corner with his housebreaking


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think that you're right, he is training you to take him out frequently. 

That Purina is terrible food as it's full of fillers that he's just going to poop right out. 

Just a word of warning: when switching him to a better quality food, if you choose one of the grain free, high protein brands, switch him over slowly or he may get diarrhea.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Okay, that's what I thought. After reading through some of the nutrition threads I'm seeing that most of the well known dog food brands are mostly filler. After reading that it's the only thing I can think of as to why this puppy is forever pooping. 

I will be stopping in today at that specialty shop because Petsmart and Petco by me don't sell TotW so I'm going to see what the damage is going to be on my pockets.

Approximately how long does the large 35lb bags of dog food last you? I'm also thinking of adding some real meat to his foods eventually. Just don't know which kind yet.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh and yes, I believe that he was training me to take him out when he felt like it which is why I stood my ground last night. 

I thought it was best to take him out whenever he needed because I didn't want him to have an accident, but he was having them anyway. I might as well not put the idea in his head that he's going to go out every two hours of the night. 

Obviously, I'm willing to take him out once maybe in the middle just because he's so young but what he was wanting me to do was excessive. 

I hope I am turning a corner because other than these random accident I know that he knows he has to go out. I can't explain it but I just know by his posture and confidence when he does go outside. He always comes over looking for his praise. 

On a brighter note, I taught him how to go into the down position and it's hysterical when he does it because he's so clumsy and uncoordinated that he does some weird stutter step to get into the down postion. I laugh everytime he goes into the position. lol


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I thought it was best to take him out whenever he needed because I didn't want him to have an accident, but he was having them anyway. I might as well not put the idea in his head that he's going to go out every two hours of the night.


This isn't just him asking to go out.

This is about a BORED puppy who knows going out with you is way more fun then...........probably what he was doing (and you were doing) BEFORE going out.

I've found my pups do MUCH better and want to go outside much less frequently if I manage them better.

I also have to crate them all day when I'm at work. Difference is what I do when I get home. I let them outside quickly. Run back in to put on my 'play' clothes. Pack the dog(s) in the car and then we are gone from the house for at least the next 2 hours at least every other day.

We socialize.

We visit friends

We hike.

We swim.

We go shopping.

PUPPY classes.

We walk walk walk.

Basically ANYTHING and everything OUTSIDE the home to tire that puppy out. So when we get home the puppy is happy, tired both mentally and physically. And I can then go around doing my regular house stuff with the pup in it's bed or asleep in the corner.

Here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-QePHpCi8&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaLug61wp5U&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc3pNhDOuwU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kro4NqlaA24&feature=channel_page


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Sawyer,

Sounds like you are on the right track, and I think it is awesome you are doing a lot of research! I think switching to a better food is a great idea. 
Keep up the good work, and use all the knowledge on the board!


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Well for the most part to his defense when we went outside he did actually use the bathroom. I just feel like even though he's young he can hold it for longer than 2 hours. I have seen him do it on several occasions. 

That's basically what we do. I come home take him out for a quick potty break, being him in so he can eat, then we go out and stay out til I see he is getting really tired. Yesterday, he was giving me that look while we were walking that he needed to take a breather. I let him take a break and then we continued on our way home. Once we got there he pretty much just knocks out. 

On the weekends, we are out all day. I take him to the beach with us, to friends houses, parks, hiking trails, and just about anything and everything we do since we brought him home. 

This is why I'm leading more towards the quality of food than anything else. I'm going to switch it and see how if things start getting better. I'll keep you guys updated on this.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:then we go out and stay out til I see he is getting really tired


I'm not saying you aren't taking him out. But WHERE you take him and WHAT you do there is as important (more?) as the amount of time. 

NEW places. NEW sights. NEW smells. NEW dogs. NEW people. NEW sounds. Away from the yard and away from the neighborhood. The car ride and getting away is vital for this.

Even then, going outside is fun. NOT being in the boring house where the humans are always busy doing laundry/cooking/on the computer/watching tv/reading/blah blah blah is a pretty much not something most our puppies enjoy. We are not nearly as fun to 'watch' for our puppies as we may thing we are.

Why they want to go out. Or decide to eat our shoes..........

But when we get them tired, REALLY tired (dog classes dog classes) then they will be good! and will want to go outside less.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

When Lulu was housebreaking she did good at night, slept at least 8 hours in her crate, but during the day she scratched to go out every time she felt the smallest urge to pee LOL I was taking her out every 20 minutes sometimes when she scratched! I allowed her to do that because she was 3 months old and I was just thrilled with the fact that she "got it" with the potty training after only 3 days of having her home, but after about 3 weeks of that I would make her wait longer and then longer to where it was every few hours I took her out and now at 6 months she can go a long time without scratching to go out, in fact I take her out to play, etc. more than she scratches to go on her own!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, Sawyer, I had Lulu on TOTW for a few months (switched from Nutro, ick!) and she did pretty well on it, lots of energy, shiny coat, she liked the taste, etc. I did actually switch her to raw about a month ago for the health benefits and because her digestive system is SO oversensitive to processed foods. She is doing GREAT on that. Has tiny hard poops twice, sometimes once, a day. I still do give her about 1 cup of the TOTW during the day between her two raw meals but will probably take that away as she gets older.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I stopped by that specialty shop down the street from my house on my way home but they were already closed. The owner happened to be outside in the driveway and asked if he could help me. I asked him if he sold TotW he said he did but that he had much better food than ToTw proven to have effects after just 10 days. 

He was an older man...said he'd been in business for 60 years there. Also said he sells raw meat which is the best thing to give a dog, but that he has dry kibble that is just as good as raw. He said the name of one, he said it was very good Xk100??? I don't know if I'm even remembering it right but a google search shows nothing. I may have the name wrong. Anyway, I will be going back there tomorrow for a new bag of food when they are open for business.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Usually better quality food = less poop. 

I have my 4 month old puppies on Wellness LB Puppy...Each puppy probably goes through a 30lb bag in a month eating between 3 and 4 cups a day. I had a friend who had her puppy on Science Diet and he was eating almost 6 cups a day, so I can only imagine how much Alpo you might have to feed.

The amount you have to feed also decreases as the dog gets older. My puppies eat a lot more than my adult dogs. My 92lb male eats about 2.5 cups/day and my 65lb female eats 2 cups/day.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, lets see how it works out I picked up the food yesterday morning and he has eaten it for dinner last night and breakfast/dinner today. I didn't transition him as I wanted to just get him off the dreaded Alpo. His poop has been okay considering the sudden change. Its semi firm but much smaller than they have been on the Alpo. We'll see as the week progresses and TotW runs thru his system. 

I was given a sample bag of a food called XK100. Supposedly, people are raving about it and they call it the Minc food. They have handwritten notes by the register of people reviews on the food. They claim it is really good for the coats. I'm not giving it to Sawyer but I did put my Pug on it who is older and isn't affected as easily by food changes. I'll see how it works out for him. 

Keep you guys posted.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

I just noticed a new behavior between my mother's Labrador and Sawyer. Sawyer licks the Lab on the mouth and inside the corner of the lips. Also he keeps raising a paw up to the other dog. I looked online to see what this behavior is because I wanted to know what was going on. 

Most sites say that Sawyer is being submissive to the Lab but others have say that the politeness can be excessive and that the dominant dog may not like it or get annoyed after a while and I think that that may be happening with us. 

They are constantly showing this behavior but sometimes the Lab looks like he gets annoyed and shows some evil looking teeth so I defuse the behavior before it escalates. They start being nice again and then it escalates and I do the same.

I'm wondering if Sawyer is learning good behaviors or bad? It appears that he is showing submissive behavior (which is good) but I don't know if he is going too far with it. He still barks at some dogs and others he doesn't. It's strange this morning he barked at a Golden Retriever but then later in the afternoon ignored a terrier mix that barked at him from across the street.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I tried googling the XK100 and came up with nothing, which if it exists google usually finds it somewhere LOL Can you give us more info on it?


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, hhmmm, it looks like cocoa puffs the cereal but smaller harder puffs. The Pug seems to like it. Other than that, I don't know anything but what the owner of the shop had told me the day I spoke to him outside in the rain. When I went back to the store to buy the TotW the owner wasn't there and I asked the lady at the register about it and she just gave me a bag full of it as a free sample. Then I read notes all over the register about how good the food is. Since I couldn't get any info on google about it I decided not to give it to Sawyer since he is a puppy and is more sensitive to food changes. My Pug will try anything so he was the test subject. Everyone calls it "minc food". I don't know anything else about it but that it came highly recommended by the owner of the shop. 

Update: Sawyer has been on TotW (fulltime) for a day and a half and last night he slept the WHOLE night without waking me up once! I woke up this morning and there was no poop or pee in his kennel. Hopefully this is not a fluke. He seemed to be able to hold it okay because when I woke up at 7 this morning and took him out he calmly found a spot and pooped. Poop is still a little soft but it was much less poop than before and he seems to be holding it better. Keeping my fingers crossed about this. I have high hopes though I know it'll take about a week of eating the food to get full results. 

OH one more thing that has me a bit perplexed. Sawyer has one ear now that the tip is now bent forward. He had already had both his ears stand up perfectly straight and pointy and now the one ear has gone a bit floppy again. I know this is a result from teething but at 13 weeks where are we as far as teething is concerned? I liked his pointy ears!!


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

He'll be teething soon - get him a knuckle bone or something like that to chew on. A lot of people say the chewing helps to exercise the muscles.

Caleb is 18 weeks and I know he's already got about 4 adult teeth and I can see a few more coming in. So he started a few weeks back.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Update: It been almost a week since I changed Sawyer's food and he has had no pooping accident in his crate at all. *knock on wood*; however, he still does pee in his crate. If it's not one thing it's another. hehe, but at least we are making some progress. 

Now...how do I curb these pee accidents? He only drinks water with his meals. Unless it's the weekend and we are out doing stuff then he has water throughout the day but for the most part during the week he gets as much as he wants twice daily. 

Suggestions on how to curb this? Things to note, he doesn't pee when I am home. He only has accidents mostly while I am at work OR sometimes during the night. Not sure if maybe I am not hearing all of his cries but I am trying not to promote too many bathroom breaks during the night and thus far it has worked with the pooping now I need to fix the peeing and we should be on the road to happiness. Well...at least until he forms a new annoying behavior. =)


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

Update: He has had 2 pooping accidents in his crate since I switched his food. One of them being this morning. Overall, he has been doing MUCh better with this though. I have had to clean a lot less poop; however, the peeing has not been controlled yet. I let him drink water twice daily as much as he wants, is this too much? I have always let my dogs drink as much as they needed but this dog pees every time I take him out and also in his crate. Everytime I take him out of his crate he feels disgusting like he has been laying in it and it dried on his fur. I have rinse him off almost daily just to get the smell of urine off him. 

Any advice on this?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is his crate too large? I don't remember if you have had him checked for a UTI, I would again if you haven't recently. I would let him drink as much as he wants. When dogs eat kibble, they do drink more than the RAWfed ones. Did you find any more info on the XK100? Can you list the ingredients?


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

How old is your puppy now (about 14 weeks?)? And are the pee accidents overnight or during the day?
How does he do on the weekend when you are home and he is not in the crate?
I know you said before that he is crated for a fairly long period during the day and having someone come in to let him out during the day isn't an option. If the accidents are during the day you may have to tuff it out until he is old enough to hold it for a long period. 
Unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestions right now.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I am wondering if his crate is too large also. I agree that he should be able to drink as much as he wants, but if you are going to put him in the crate I would have the water up at least an hour before and make sure that he pees, and not just mark, but pee. 

The more he pees and poos in his crate the more he will get used to it, and that creates a harder problem to break if you are not available to take him out multiple times during the day. But it sounds like he is trying to hold it at least.

Unfortunately your schedule is less than ideal for housebreaking a puppy so I think that it is definitely going to take a little longer than most. 

The general rule is to go by month 2 months old=2 hours max in a crate, 3 months old=3 hours and so on. 
How old is your pup now?


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Lulu was crate trained and housbroken in about 4 days at 12 weeks old when we got her. We did get a large crate but did partition it off so she just had room to sleep and turn around. I had her out of the crate most the day and watched her like a HAWK never taking my eyes off of her so she never got away with an accident without being whisked outside and heavily praised. I am a stay at home mom so I was able to do this, I know it's not possible when you work out of the home.

Lulu also peed constantly. I would take her out literally every 10-20 minutes all day long, she also drank a LOT (I would not limit your puppies water, it's so essential for their health and growth to be properly hydrated). We took her out several times during the night as well. Even once she was housebroken for a long time there she would go scratch on the door every 10-20 mins to go pee.

Now she is 6 months old and perfectly trained where she has earned her freedom in the entire house. She is now raw fed so she drinks maybe 1/4 or less than what she did when on the kibble! It's amazing how that changes! She'll also go several hours now before needing to go pee and poops only once a day with her stools exactly as they should be. When I had her on kibble she had major poop probs! Pooped several times a day and all "cowpies", I'll never go back to kibble! I used to have to get up during the night every night to let her out when on the kibble but now she sleeps 8-9 hours straight every night without needing to go out. 

It is very hard to housebreak a pup when you are not there all the time (at least while they are housebreaking). Maybe taking a one or two week vacation and staying home with the pup or something like that might be helpful? They can't hold it that long and if left in the crate too long they will start to think that is where they are supposed to go because no one is there to let them out and show them where to go potty. I think it's essential to figure out a way to get them housebroken early on, my sister has a labradoodle who was never trained very well, they tried but weren't very persistent about it and at two years old the dog still potties in the house and seems untrainable at this point (course he's not the smartest tool it the shed to begin with  )


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Taking a week off (if an option) may help in the short term, as far as getting the pup to know he should be going outside. But I think a part of the problem here is the long time in the crate during the day. It's just too long to hold it and is ultimately making it harder to housebreak.

When Rica was a puppy, we didn't have the option of having someone home during the day to house break her. She had the same kind of long hours (9 hours or so) in the crate until DH or I got home at night. I think it took us longer to house break her because of that and I did have to clean up pee sometimes when I got home. 

With both Aodhán and Caleb, my DH worked from home, so they were a lot easier to house break.


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## Sawyer498 (Jul 6, 2009)

On the weekends and when I am home he has no accidents. Only time he has had accidents on the weekend is when I go to my parents house and he's running around with their Lab and I didn't realize that they had the dogs water down and the pup had a free for all with the water. Play, Run, Pee, rinse and repeat...until I found out the huge water bowl was down. Other than that I can't say he has that many peeing accident. I'm there watching him so it's hard for him to do so because I know his body movements when he is ready. 

Maybe I just have to tough it out for now until he gets a bit older because he really is going for extended periods of time without a potty break. He holds his poop rather well now I have to admit. While he has had two accidents that is a HUGE improvement to what it was before. I was picking poop up every morning and evening. I can deal with picking up and cleaning the pee, though his fur feels nasty and he smells of urine when I am greeted, it's much better than the other alternative. 

I'll keep working with him on it I guess. Thanks for all the advice.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Sawyer498On the weekends and when I am home he has no accidents. Only time he has had accidents on the weekend is when I go to my parents house and he's running around with their Lab and I didn't realize that they had the dogs water down and the pup had a free for all with the water. Play, Run, Pee, rinse and repeat...until I found out the huge water bowl was down. Other than that I can't say he has that many peeing accident. I'm there watching him so it's hard for him to do so because I know his body movements when he is ready.
> 
> Maybe I just have to tough it out for now until he gets a bit older because he really is going for extended periods of time without a potty break. He holds his poop rather well now I have to admit. While he has had two accidents that is a HUGE improvement to what it was before. I was picking poop up every morning and evening. I can deal with picking up and cleaning the pee, though his fur feels nasty and he smells of urine when I am greeted, it's much better than the other alternative.
> 
> I'll keep working with him on it I guess. Thanks for all the advice.


You say that you know his body movements when he needs to go. So on the weekends or at night, if he is in the house, does he "ask to go out" - i.e head toward the door you usually take him out, etc? Or is he getting ready to go and you see it and quickly take him outside. 
If he is asking to go out then I think he "gets it" that he should be going outside (and I would give him lots of praise and reward for heading for the right door, etc.) And it's just going to take some time when he has the long stays in the crate, for him to be able to hold it then. 
But if he's not heading for the door and still just looking for any place inside, then he hasn't gotten it yet. In that case, I think you have to work doubly hard when you're home to help him make the connection that he needs to go outside. More treats, wild parties outside when he goes outside, etc. I wouldn't always wait until you saw signs that he needed to go either. I'd take him out every hour or two until bedtime to help re-inforce that connection with potty = go outside not just "whereever I happen to be".


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## Technostorm (May 24, 2009)

Hi Sawyer, 

From reading your posts and posts of others.. reinerating that you're on the right path however........

1. It seems that your puppy is taking for granted that you will clean up his crate after he relieves himself.. below would be a method "I" would use if I had this puppy. This is not for the kind of heart type owners who may think I'm crazy! and again, most may not agree with me and even curse me, but it would be worth a try "IF" this was "MY" pup. 

Since this is an ongoing thing, I would address it with an unorthodox approach.. A. instead of NOT correcting him when he goes inside the crate, lightly bang on the crate to startle him. Give him an unpleasent but brief vocal correction, then ignore him after he soiled himself. DO NOT leave the area but instead stay with him without letting him out. Sit there next to the crate and pretend you are disappointed without giving him any eye contact. Simply stay near the crate ignoring him for a while. Let him realize that you are unhappy with this behaviour and is NOT playing his game anymore!. It'll smell foul and he won't be pleasent with the poop stuck all over him which you will soon bath him anyways. This way, you are trying to obviously distinguish the major difference of going outside (with lots of praise and treast), to negative reaction towards unwanted behaviour of going inside the crate associating with being ignore and and unwanted attention. They are smarter then you think and WILL abuse you when given the opportunities to do so. This doesn't mean right after you come home and he's been couped up in the crate for many hours.. This only means during the time he has already relieved himself outside after a good meal. A dog's natural behaviour is the please their owners. It is mostly what they want to do. If you appropriately and consistently points out his unwanted behaviours are being ignored, he should be able to learn that "that is NOT what you wanted". B. when feeding him, you need to supervise the whole feeding from his first bite until the very last drop on his bowl. You need to pick up the bowl and take him out afterward. You can and should also start implementing NILIF if haven't already. This will establish a consistent behaviour of what you'd expect him to do at all time. It'll also establish a reason for him to "look foward too" what YOU want and what HE is expected of doing. 

2. I personally believe that any dogs regardless of breed needs to know how to read an owner and to comprehend and relate what the owners wants. It is the owner's job to enforce and encourage such behaviour. It is also the owner's job to point out and make it obvious for the dog to understand this. There are no other way. This not only helps build the trust and bond between owner/dogs. It will excerise the dog's brain to function better by problem solving. 

In regards to puppyhood, we as owners from previous and present all have gone thru this time and time again and it is frustrating at times. But the success once acheived by the dog growing into and out of makes it all worthwhile and we soon forget how frustrated we are. Picture is as if a Pregnant mom's first child. A newborn squirting pee on dad on his first ever diaper change.. 

Hehe, in a few more month, you'll be sharing your experiences on this forum to other new GSD owners.. Have fun and enjoy!.. Good luck.

Dan


***added notes for editing***

If I were you, I'd look into maybe a good 2 weeks vacation if permitted just so you can spend the whole time training, building bond and being with the puppy. He needs it now more then ever!..


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