# Begining bitework questions



## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi guys, I have a 6 month old german shepherd from working lines, and I wanted to get him involved in IPO. Here is the thing: he will not hold onto the tug. I stopped bitework when he was teething, after his adult teeth grew in I started working him again. He has been on the rag and has had a nice, calm, full, firm grip on it. I moved him up to a tug, but he will not hold onto it the same way he holds onto the rag. 
This is the first dog I have had that I am looking to compete with, so this is new for me (I have only had personal protection dogs worked in defence) so I need some guidence. I know joining a club will help but I am moving out of state at the end of the month so I was going to wait until then. For now, I have been working him by myself.
It has been bothering me though, my lab that I had held on better than this shepherd. I need all the advice I can get, I'm wondering if his drive will come out better when he is older, or if I should just stick to obedience and tracking.
I thank all of you in advance for your help and taking the time to read this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what is the tug made of? Burlap, suede, leather are sometimes too slippery and dogs don't like that texture. I'd get a two handle synthetic tug and see if he will grip that. Ball on string isn't getting it either? How are you 'working' him?
Usually a 6 month old is still teething....have you looked to be sure all the teeth are in alignment and baby teeth are out?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is usually due to some sort of conflict between you and the dog. So without seeing you work with the dog and seeing your daily interactions it's really hard to give that much advice. A 6 month old really wouldn't be able to tug that hard in the first place...its a young dog, and it knows that it probably won't beat you anyways so it just lets go. The dog still needs confidence building and it's really tough to do that by yourself.

Your dog probably doesn't have over the top prey drive...is probably a bit more defensive if it's coming off the tug like that, so it will take someone else to really tap into and develop the dog's prey drive without causing more conflict between you and the dog.

I would just stop working the dog...you can do a lot more harm right now than good. You don't want to have to go back and fix things later, and you don't even know if you'll have a helper/trainer wherever you'll be that will be able to fix the issues you might cause also.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

tug causes conflict? Don't tell Karlo that, lol It is his favorite game/at 6 months he won alot!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> tug causes conflict? Don't tell Karlo that, lol It is his favorite game/at 6 months he won alot!


If done improperly...I've seen how tug can cause a lot of conflict between handler and dog. Dog is fine on a flirt pole (disconnected from handler) but the moment it's closer to the handler or the handler has their hands on the dog, dog drops the tug. It's conflict.

It's usually not the "act of playing tug" and most times the other stuff that occurs around the house that causes the conflict. If the dog doesn't have the natural high prey drive to keep hold of the tug and actually fight for it, you can really cause some issues.

I can even see this in my own dog...he "respects" me a lot more than a helper. He will play/tug with a helper harder than he will with me. This is partially due to me not knowing what I was doing when he was younger and having to change the way I play with him later on in life.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would stop working your dog for now and wait until you can start up with a club. It may be conflict or it may just be that he isn't ready. 6 months old is very young. Don't be in a hurry.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks for the advice guys,

My gsd (Griffin) is usually crated or on a "climb" if I'm not training him-he only gets toys through training. I feel like his genetics are a part of it (though I can be influencing it of coarse) , his half siblings have had issues holding on to rags/tugs, though they have gone on to doing k9 work and competing. Should I stop using the tug as a reward too and just use a ball? Whenever we play I try not to put too much pressure on him (eye contact, looming over) I also let him knock me down if he triespecially too, and let him win it when I fix his bite. I try to keep sessions short and happy and with him still wanting the tug. I'll try to get a video up on how I work him later on tonight


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's hard to say without watching a dog work. This isn't always about age. Some dogs, even at a young age, need pressure and like a little bit of fight. It pisses them off and they get more serious. Like I said earlier...as a handler, you shouldn't be putting yourself in the position of a helper ESPECIALLY if you're not actually a knowledgeable helper lol. My helper, won't work his own dog, it causes conflict and it depends on the dog if it affects them or not. He knows it would affect his dog, so he doesn't do it.

This being your first competition dog...you really don't want to make any mistakes by trying to rush your dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I would stop working your dog for now and wait until you can start up with a club. It may be conflict or it may just be that he isn't ready. 6 months old is very young. Don't be in a hurry.


This.

and a good helper can bring a lot out of your dog. Find a club.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Right better safe than sorry....I think I'll wait then. I have had some experience with it in the certification program, but not nearly enough in protection. For obedience rewards, I use a magnet ball on a rope. He is crazy for it. In your opinion, do you believe that this will also effect bitework? I try his building confidence with this toy (he tugs on it and I fall over, act like it's effecting me alot lol!)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Leerburg has a good video on tugging.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Every dog is different, watching a video online doesn't mean your dog will react the same way as the dog in the video.

OP...just stop trying to be a HELPER. You're the HANDLER. I'd just focus on obedience for now. I wouldn't worry too much about helping your dog's confidence yourself. Just have fun with him. Don't come down too hard on him, don't over correct him. I actually wouldn't correct him for anything at this point. Everything should be positive.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Where are you relocating to? Do you have any clubs lined up to visit?


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Indiana, in the Indianapolis area. I have been told that there is a club in indianapolis, I have not visited yet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are a couple in that area, good place for training!


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

Agree with the prior advice. It sounds like you may be trying too hard. Many times you can inadvertently cause some issues by forcing the issue. Visit a club and get some instruction from there.

I am in Indy. Some good clubs in the area!


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

wolfmanusf said:


> Agree with the prior advice. It sounds like you may be trying too hard. Many times you can inadvertently cause some issues by forcing the issue. Visit a club and get some instruction from there.
> 
> I am in Indy. Some good clubs in the area!



Lol I tend to do that Unfortionately! I'm looking forward to heading down there, sounds much more lively than boring toledo!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

were you working with anyone before the teething began?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I haven't seen the dog but it doesn't sound good if you're going to do sport work. A good puppy will play tug with a metal pipe and a complete stranger.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I'm with Lisa, I have watched new handlers create all kinds of problems by trying to do something they have no experience with. Some of the best dogs I have ever worked refused to bite me. Doesn't have anything to do with being "defensive" when the dog lets go, you are the dog's handler not a bad guy. It can be confusing for certain kinds of dogs.
This whole sport has been turned on it's head but the idea that a dog is no good because he will not play with protection equipment is ridiculous. That last sentence should say it all but I am sure people missed it. It's was supposed to be protection, not playtection.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

No, I was not. I tried having somone tease him, but he jut wanted to play with the person lol! He would not even hold onto the rag before he started teething, he would just mouth on it. He did not have much interest in toys. Right after his adult teeth grew in, he became nuts for the ball and started holding onto the rag....just not the tug. 
I have trained dogs from his mother (in obedience) back when I was at TRS, and they seem to have done the same thing whenever my instructor was starting them out in protection. One of now on a sleeve....so I'm wondering if these particular dogs' drives come out when they are older....his half siblings were around 10-12 months when I worked them...

I think I just want to see if this dog is suited for this work, if not then Il just compete in akc obedience and tracking....and maybe get just a BH on him. He has a great temperment! I really enjoy that about him, very social.

The reas on why I was working him to begin with is that is what they taught at the program I went through to get my foot-in-the-door with dog training. They taught us to I build drive in the dog by putting them on a short line init I ally and tease the dog, when they start barking reward them by giving the the toy...when they let go make them work to get it back again....after have a good grip on the rag, move them to a tug, then to "line bites" with a helper. That is how they did it, every place teaches a dog differently, and they didn't go into much depth with protection so I have alot to learn yet

I stopped working him for now, just obedience with a ball, scent detection, and tracking.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My female Deja, who is a very strong dog in protection, had no interest in even playing ball until she was almost a year. Then it was because I made it about the fight with me. She never bit a rag and was a half hearted biting dog on tugs and pillows. For her protection work is all about the fight and I had to wait for her to be old enough to work her and then start her with the right helper. She was well over a year (15 or 16 months). She was super easy at that point. She will play tug with me now, but there is always a very serious side to it.  I don't allow her to play tug with others since it escalates rather quickly into something else. I knew when I bred her mother to her father that this might be a possibility. Even her brother, Donovan, was slow to show his drive for toys. He has more prey drive and it showed up one day at about 8 months. He, though, was ready for bitework at a younger age, but took a LONG time to develop aggression for good barking. 

If you think the pup might show more later than wait. Won't hurt to wait and you can do other stuff meanwhile. 

I am a member of O.G. Indianapolis. They are a great club with a lot of experience. I have not trained with O.G. Landshark, though I have trained with a few of their members and seems like a good club. Both are in Indy. 

Great post Anne.


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## marreromcp (Oct 15, 2014)

He is still a puppy and their personality's are still changing. Is your dog fixed? I am not a fan of fixing male dogs early. 

I have a female GSD that is almost 7 months old with a very high prey drive and absolutely loves to play and "catch" anything that is moving when we first got her at 2 months. Yet, she has her moments. For me, month 4 and 5 once she got her teeth in, she didnt want to play with a tug or a bite rag, she barely started getting into it again. Start off with all other training first. 




maureen_mickel said:


> Hi guys, I have a 6 month old german shepherd from working lines, and I wanted to get him involved in IPO. Here is the thing: he will not hold onto the tug. I stopped bitework when he was teething, after his adult teeth grew in I started working him again. He has been on the rag and has had a nice, calm, full, firm grip on it. I moved him up to a tug, but he will not hold onto it the same way he holds onto the rag.
> This is the first dog I have had that I am looking to compete with, so this is new for me (I have only had personal protection dogs worked in defence) so I need some guidence. I know joining a club will help but I am moving out of state at the end of the month so I was going to wait until then. For now, I have been working him by myself.
> It has been bothering me though, my lab that I had held on better than this shepherd. I need all the advice I can get, I'm wondering if his drive will come out better when he is older, or if I should just stick to obedience and tracking.
> I thank all of you in advance for your help and taking the time to read this.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

marreromcp said:


> He is still a puppy and their personality's are still changing. Is your dog fixed? I am not a fan of fixing male dogs early.
> 
> I have a female GSD that is almost 7 months old with a very high prey drive and absolutely loves to play and "catch" anything that is moving when we first got her at 2 months. Yet, she has her moments. For me, month 4 and 5 once she got her teeth in, she didnt want to play with a tug or a bite rag, she barely started getting into it again. Start off with all other training first.
> 
> ...


No, he is not fixed I am not a fan of fixing young male dog either. I also do not plan on fixing him as I am aware of his genetic background (from his pedigree) and I also plan on breeding him eventually (due to his excelllent temperment and great nose) as long as he turns out to have good hips+elbows like his parents do, getting his prelims and his DM done when he turns 1.

Ichzth- I was looking at O.G Indianapolis as it looks like an excellwnt network of experienced trainers and a wonderful way of expanding my education. Since graduating from TRS, I have not been able to find a network excelle t trainers near me.....it makes me miss the school lol! Maybe ill check it out if im down there on a day your club is training (ill be down there on the 23-24th, and after that whenever i move down there lol!!!) Any information on the club is of coarse helpful


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

When I got Rorie as a puppy her breeder described her as the puppy that played-even if that is not what a GSD is supposed to be I love that-it makes training so much fun-or just spending time with her


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Contact the club and ask about when they are meeting (usually both weekend days, but sometimes only Sunday this time of year). They also have a FB page and they announce when they are training on there. I haven't moved down there yet. Waiting to sell my farm. Train with them when I can for now. 

O.G. Indianapolis Schutzhund and Polizei


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Dog can sense the handler's expectation. Will he? Will he grip the tug? He doesn't, oh no! They are so good at reading us. 

I am still old fashioned. Work with a good helper who knows how to measure it right for each individual dog, and when the dog is ready for it. Then the dog goes forward or does not.

My current girl will play tug hard with others but not with me b/c I had a shoulder injury when she grew up. Has nothing to do with how level headed and how protective she is. 

And what all others said. Have fun with your pup! They aren't puppies for long. And give him the gift of accepting him for whoever he might become.


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