# There are always consequences...



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

To the way you train..

Just going to share one of the speedbumps I have encountered with the current dog. 

For those of you that are training nuts and get out there regularly this will come as no surprise to you..still its always amusing when you realize you shot yourself in the foot..lol.

I train my dog both for sport and real life. Sometimes that create conflicts down the road.


I trained my dog to heel "pet heeling" mainly through positive punishment (prong and E Collar) in conjunction with + reenforcement (ball). Dog must stay on my left leg, pivot to remain straight, no forging or lagging. Beign out of position = punishment. I did not install an automatic sit as I did not find it important as long as the dog remained on my leg.

Seperately:
I trained Ipo style heeling first with food then with ball minimal to no compulsion. Dog has decent positioning and heels well when motivated.
However, I began to experience an issue with extended focus and expression (dog started looking across my body instead of at my face / shoulder). This obviously looks sloppier and inevitably leads to the dog completely looking away from you at some point.

Mode of address:
-Increase the number of reward instances as well as vary delivery and ask for less duration between rewards
Result: This did offer a slight increase in motivation but after the first two repititions the issue began to crop up again.

-Create better upward focus through maintaining the reward delivery only from the armpit. (At the time I had begun to deliver the ball from different areas) 
Result: Again no improvements were noted beyond the first couple of repitions.

-So now we resort to positive punishment. Punish the dog for anything less then full focus on the handlers face. (Here is were I find the bullet hole in my foot) I go to my two favorite tools prong/ecollar. Dog starts slacking in the focus I correct.
Result: Dog began hugging my left leg even tighter, no improvment in the dog actually maintaining focus on my face. If anything we began to lose even more expression..

Lightbulb: I have corrected the dog in the past for coming off my left leg, forging, lagging etc. In these instances getting back into the correct position removed the pressure and gained reward.
Dog is being confused by the application of punishment as he deems herself to be in the correct learned position which she is. (What I am correcting for is the dog not giving me her full focus) she has learned that in the instance of a heel corrections come for being out of position and have no connection to focus.

Now I know that the way I trained the "pet heeling" is causing confusion when it comes to teaching the IPO heel.

So we go back to positive methods and I think about it for a while. I try to get more ball drive because I percieve this to be a motivation issue. More drive = more desire to perform the behavior correctly = better duration and better expression.

While Im dinking around with this I learn that the dog is more motivated to access the ball when it is lying on the ground or when I actually throw it for her.

Clearly positive only methods arent getting me quite were I need to be time to go back to punishment to make my communication clearer and create more duration, better focus and good expression.

Solution: Place the ball on the ground close to the dog. Call the dog to "FOOSE". Dog comes into position, looks at me = reward (she gets to access the ball). Do a couple times add a bit of duration, rinse and repeat.
Now the dog starts looking away from me because the ball which is lying on the ground is a big motivator.
Correction = the dog looks back and is immidiately rewarded.

Now we add some movement dog wants badly to look at the ball but everytime she does = correction. Now she associates positive punishment with not only her position but looking away as well. 

Dog has a lot of motivation for the ball just lying on the ground, we can also increase motivation by tossing the ball and calling the dog to "Foose" while the ball is creating heavy distraction through its movement. 

Now since this is similar to how I trained the "pet heel" and I did not install an auto sit we have begun losing the auto sit in the IPO heel. So having to fix that too.

Overall the clear delineation between the punishment and reward was achieved by simply placing the ball on the ground and creating two options. 
Look at the handler and you get the ball.
Look at the ball and you get a correction.

We are making up for some lost time now with our IPO heeling and exression has not suffered as the motivation for the ball is very high. I can also now carry the ball and punish for a lookaway and recieve better focus so the ball does not have to be on the ground all the time anymore.

We have someother things we are working on but this specific issue has been annoying me for a while.


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

So many things. Have seen dogs basically become afraid of the reward with what you are doing. She doesn't understand true attention. Ball under armpit-- look at ball. Ball in the ground-- don't look at it or get zapped. Dog is more motivated if you aren't attached to the ball. Lotta confusion and conflict.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I had a feeling some might try to make things out that way...

Dog has no fear of any of the reward objects I use. If anything the drive and expression has now improved. Clarity was achieved through conflict in this case.

A lot of my training with this dog has been influneced with what the dog is genetically and finding what motivates her in various situations.

I know how to apply punishment and reward.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Since talk is cheap here is my dog being afraid of the reward..while being taught "pet" heeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yle7naUfEhQ

When you give the dog the proper foundation and teach the dog the desired behavior, then also condition the dog to work through pressure you avoid supersticious associations.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You might have also considered putting the eye contact on cue. People say watch or look for eye contact and instead of no do an aaaah aaah or something like that as soon as the dog looks away and then use negative reinforcement pops or stims till they get eye contact again then good and keep going or yes and reward. Then the dog knows exactly what it was doing wrong and things are more clear for when you switch to positive punishment.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I think there is great wisdom in admitting and learning from our mistakes. You saw the issue and figured out a different approach to start again, nice


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The video shows several things,

1. Communication from you to the dog is not clear and pretty grey.
2. Practicing too many actions (going forward, turns, backward motion).
3. Drive building activity is not part of the practice session.

Recommendations,

1. Reward from stationary heel position (but only for correct position, body/shoulder/head).
2. When rewarding, stim the dog using momentary nick.
3. Start 1 step motion, only reward in perfect position (body and head), nick at reward. Repeat for several weeks. Now take 2 steps, criteria remains same.

After several months the dog will be able to heel longer but with good position (body and head). Always nick when releasing/rewarding with ball.

Start taking 1 step back, only reward perfect position, nick at reward. Take 2-3 steps back, only reward perfect position. Now take 3-5 steps forward and immediately stop + take 1 step back, nick/reward. The taking 2 steps back and rewarding becomes the drive building activity that you will be using moving forward (reward will switch to less during forward motion and more when moving back). So when you feel dog is loosing oomph, take 2 steps back/reward/nick. Dog perks up big time.

Dog will understand what is required in terms of position, will also very clearly associate nick with perfect position and reward. Months down the road, you can THEN use nick to correct and the dog will NOW know what to do (get in perfect position from nick) as you have ingrained that it will result in reward, drive will go up instead of down as this method of rewarding with a nick increases drive when using electric.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> You might have also considered putting the eye contact on cue. People say watch or look for eye contact and instead of no do an aaaah aaah or something like that as soon as the dog looks away and then use negative reinforcement pops or stims till they get eye contact again then good and keep going or yes and reward. Then the dog knows exactly what it was doing wrong and things are more clear for when you switch to positive punishment.


I actually do have a look command but I didnt use it as described. I didnt want the dog to become reliant on the secondary que..thinking back that may have been worth pursuing farther as ypu describe.

@Faisal
The vid was just to show the dog is not afraid of the ball. Im not teaching ipo heeling in that vid. Therefor precision and expression are not what Im focusing on. Just the dog staying on my leg.
Im training the IPO heel somewhat differently then in the vid. That being said I find your method of adding stim before the reward interesting. I have never used it before however I can see how it can play a role in loading the dog instead of just being pressure. Im not quite clear on why you add a backup before the reward. Obviously overtime the dog would perk up on the backup if thats how you always reward.
So overtime I am assuming you back up to load the dog then move forward again instead of rewarding?
I may start adding the stim before the reward and see how it goes, however in this case the stim has already been used in the heeling context as a correction. So this may cause some confusion if introduced at this stage.

Dont think I need to go back to stationary positioning as that is solid. Even moving position was good it was just the head set that was bothering me.

Ill post a vid of how Im training the ipo heel and you can judge that. Obviously the pet heeling I did early in the dogs life is causing some confusion now which Im ok with.

For the next dog Ill probably train the pet heel on the right side.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The moving back with reward or moving through legs on every step with reward or moving between legs with reward are all exercises that we do to motivate the dog, it keeps things fun and exciting, builds drive, improves position and prevents dog not wanting to be with handler as there is no fun in it for the dog/team.

These exercises also give you a tool that you can rely on at any time to bring on more horse power in OB. The other way is to use electric for everything, dog goes lower and lower in drive, does not want to be with handler as there is no fun. Dog does not know what he did right or wrong as rewards are inconsistent, punishment is everywhere. Many such teams say their OB is flat and dog is not "sporty" but "real", well duh! 

Just 2 different ways of training.


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

Its an over time thing. Soon the ball loses its appeal when its become too associated with the correction. She has great object drive. Instead of correcting for her focus on the ball which was taught inadvertently. She still doesn't understand position and I doubt that she understands true attention. I wouldn't reinforce her preference for the ball away from you but that's a preference. I want them to seek drive satisfaction through me with a dog like that which has that level of object drive. In your "pet heeling," you are still allowing a sloppy version of behaviors you will want more refined for competition. Confusion for the dog. Its not an issue of positive only methods here. Its a problem of not clearly setting the criteria and moving too far too fast. You said your two favorite tools are a prong and e-collar. Where was it positive only in her training?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> The moving back with reward or moving through legs on every step with reward or moving between legs with reward are all exercises that we do to motivate the dog, it keeps things fun and exciting, builds drive, improves position and prevents dog not wanting to be with handler as there is no fun in it for the dog/team.
> 
> *I still am not seeing how the act of backing up or moving between legs loads the dog unless you literally reward everytime you do this. In which case **why not just reward while moving forward, turning or backing..? *
> *This variable reenforcement should keep the dog anticipating the reward all the time.*
> ...


I do plan on trying the stim before reward to see what results that brings.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Kyndaara said:


> Its an over time thing. Soon the ball loses its appeal when its become too associated with the correction.
> 
> 
> *That might be true if everytime the ball comes out there is lots of punishment. Thats not the case*
> ...


 
The positive only was how she was taught IPO heeling. First with food, then with the ball. 
No leash no e collar. Those tools have recently been added to improve the headset and duration of focus.


There is some all positive stuff in this vid. No compulsion was used to teach any behaviors. Short heeling can be seen about a minute in. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYwnQIXYb8


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Looks like you already know the answers, should result in good training. As a response to the questions, a handler uses the "going back" and other techniques I described earlier to teach position and build drive without using the formal command and getting stuck with sloppy performance and resulting excessive corrections, which in turn translates to sloppy (er) performance and the downward spiral begins.

These exercises teach proper position without giving excessive/meaningless corrections and also provides the handler with "non equipment needed" tools that can be used at any time to to get the dog under tighter control and influence drive level. 

All this is just an opinion as you asked for one. You can continue going down the path you are going and in a year or 2 might see it different. Cheers.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

The "nick" is at the same time as the release command to get the dog conditioned to behavior/stim combination. The behavior has to be what you want to reward and the dog to remember/get conditioned to so no half ass movements or rewards (or corrections) from handler. Same can be achieved with a prong stim.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm a newbie but I wonder if just playing with her more with no goal might help her see you as more rewarding. Your very presence could become more reinforcing using play.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

"The act of running to the ball loads her up its more fun then when it just pops out of my armpit into her mouth."

Careful with this, have you started training the send out? I have seen rewarding this way really mess up the send out. One dog at Nationals this year, that I know was rewarded a lot the way you are speaking of, ran around the field looking for his tug when he was given the command for the send out. Lost most of his points there.

Packen, I like what you're saying about working on the positioning a lot. My guy is 9 months old (almost) and we haven't done much forward movement. We are working a ton on pivoting, stationary focus during lots of distractions, taking a step backwards, to the side....all position work. Any forward movement is a step at a time, reward before lose interest, no rushing. First movement forward is one a step or two.

The dogs I've seen that were worked a TON on position work, have beautiful healing on the finished product. They don't have lots of "look at my puppy healing videos" because they haven't really touched a lot of forward movement until 9/10 months. All the position work seems to help prevent crabbing and forging, but a lot want to get to that forward movement very quickly. I tend to see lots of head dropping, steps and then look aways, crabbing, and forging. Sometimes the excuses I hear from the handlers (not you Blitz, but others who's videos I watch), is that the dog is "real" so your comments about that made me laugh, Packen. My impression is that *most of the time, there was just some rushed foundations in training, which results in compulsion to "fix" things later.

I'm finding position work is a lot of fun, for me and the dog. The movement is what seems to load the dog, a quick pivot, a front, back to fuss...the dog seems to enjoy it and it makes him connect his brain with the separate movement of his rear, if that makes sense. I ONLY reward for a perfect position, I may give verbal encouragement when we are starting something and he begins the correct motion to the final product...but the food or toy reward isn't given until the perfect picture. 

Is that what you mean about loading the dog in the stepping back and stuff, the movement loads the dog?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Packen said:


> Looks like you already know the answers, should result in good training. As a response to the questions, a handler uses the "going back" and other techniques I described earlier *to teach position and build drive without using the formal command and getting stuck with sloppy performance and resulting excessive corrections, which in turn translates to sloppy (er) performance and the downward spiral begins.
> 
> These exercises teach proper position without giving excessive/meaningless corrections and also provides the handler with "non equipment needed" tools that can be used at any time to to get the dog under tighter control and influence drive level. *
> 
> All this is just an opinion as you asked for one. You can continue going down the path you are going and in a year or 2 might see it different. Cheers.


Saw this after I asked my question, this clarified it for me.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I'm a newbie but I wonder if just playing with her more with no goal might help her see you as more rewarding. Your very presence could become more reinforcing using play.


I really agree with this. Only recently did I really add obedience or ask for MORE in obedience, most of the puppy work at our club for the first 6-7 months or so is allll play/tug with a little treat for focus work.

Just in the last month or so I started taking my guy out onto the front porch, or into the backyard, no toys, no treats, just me and him rough housing. I push him, he jumps into me, grabs my sleeve, we tug back and forth, I grab his scruff, push him around. He LOVES it, jumps like crazy, tongue hanging out, tail wagging.... It's really changed our dynamic during training, my TD recently said, "he is just full of himself lately isn't he?!" 

He's always had a really nice drive for the tug, I just think *I* was boring on the training field and off.* I* needed to be more fun, interacting with *ME* had to be a reward in and of itself (I'm not crazy about dogs that seem to care more about their toys than their owner). That relationship of "play"...not with a tug/ball/toy, treats, and obedience, but with me...is really getting strong and it makes him super fun during tug. LOTS of torquing, driving, jumping onto me, shoving the toy into me. Every now and then his old favorite game of "keep away" rears it's ugly head, but that's almost completely gone. I think even more time just rough housing around and playing with me will make it completely disappear and we'll continue the trajectory of "handler being the reward" and not only the object or treat.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Hi Dani! This is something I'm working on with my girl especially. She is an independent little miss with an intense ball/tug obsession.. Working on becoming more interesting with the toy with the IPO helper has helped build the bond a lot more. I wonder about games of chase with no toys...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> Looks like you already know the answers, should result in good training. As a response to the questions, a handler uses the "going back" and other techniques I described earlier to teach position and build drive without using the formal command and getting stuck with sloppy performance and resulting excessive corrections, which in turn translates to sloppy (er) performance and the downward spiral begins.
> 
> These exercises teach proper position without giving excessive/meaningless corrections and also provides the handler with "non equipment needed" tools that can be used at any time to to get the dog under tighter control and influence drive level.
> 
> All this is just an opinion as you asked for one. You can continue going down the path you are going and in a year or 2 might see it different. Cheers.


Like I said the concept is interesting I might try some of those methods however this method isnt the only method so take it easy...

Thanks for the clarifications. I think Ill be going back on just getting the dog into positions so it can look flashier.

I play with the dog plenty. Not a day goes by that we dont go somewhere or do something together.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The comment on the send out is a good point. Will look into that further.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

No harm no foul Blitz, training talk is interesting and you have a good dog so even more interesting.

The main reason for adding the position play (going back, sideways, snap left turn, going between legs etc) breaks up the routine of just regular heeling and keeps it very interesting for the dog and the handler essentially uses these play exercises to make position perfect or as close to perfect as possible. Secondly, switching the reward for the play exercises serves 2 very important purposes.

First purpose is to keep engagement level high and keep the dog's interest in the handler. Second purpose is to fade reward from normal heeling. Why does one need to fade reward from normal heeling? Well because once normal heeling is close to being perfect the handler needs to starte thinking ahead and work on motion exercises. One way to success is to reward for the motion exercises most of the time. The dog comes on to the field and starts to eagerly anticipate the sit/down/stand out of motion commands as you reward here. Therefore you fade the reward for normal heeling (when the dog is walking) to just the motion exercise to build drive for them (reward at sit/down/stand). As you fade the heeling reward, you need to keep drive and excitement level up, here you use the tools (2-3 steps back/reward etc) to control drive and keep position perfect yet keep dog awaiting motion exercises for reward. 

Next comes the retrieves and send-out. You fade motion reward and reward at send-out and so forth. Now dog heels, does motion, retrieves and still has high drive as he knows the reward is at the send-out. 

Dunno if I explained it clearly but the lil tricks (going back, left turn, between legs etc) provides you the tools to use to add more and more exercises to OB and carefully select and fade reward points yet keep drive level high and things very interesting for the dog. The dog wants to be with the handler and work for him/her.

The terms "flashy/sporty/flat/real" are often used by people who do not know how to buildup and incorporate these tools. These very well accepted excuses in the pet community


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> No harm no foul Blitz, training talk is interesting and you have a good dog so even more interesting.
> 
> The main reason for adding the position play (going back, sideways, snap left turn, going between legs etc) breaks up the routine of just regular heeling and keeps it very interesting for the dog and the handler essentially uses these play exercises to make position perfect or as close to perfect as possible. Secondly, switching the reward for the play exercises serves 2 very important purposes.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting approach. I have never seen it used around here..tbh most people in these parts are still yanking and cranking so thats not saying much.
Def different then the mark / reward / punishment then go to variable stimulation method Im familiar with. I can see how it would get certain dogs amped up.

Almost like a game for the dog..you have to be fast to keep up and get the reward your not sure what Im going to do next?

So when do you fade the reward during normal heeling and start backing up to reward?
Once you start doing this do you ever reward the dog during normal heeling again?

Is there a resource to read more about this method?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This is an interesting approach. I have never seen it used around here..tbh most people in these parts are still yanking and cranking so thats not saying much.
> Def different then the mark / reward / punishment then go to variable stimulation method Im familiar with. I can see how it would get certain dogs amped up.
> 
> Almost like a game for the dog..you have to be fast to keep up and get the reward your not sure what Im going to do next?
> ...


Even when you initiate the play sequence, you are working the dog. When you back up you are indirectly teaching them to navigate using back legs, if not in position you can use the nick feature you already trained earlier to pop them back in position. It is dangerous to say "never" in dog training, when you start to fade reward in forward heeling there is a purpose. The purpose is to get the dog to anticipate the "sit" out of motion command and think, "when is he going to command me to sit as I get the reward there". This happens after a few sessions of fading the earlier "heeling" reward. After the sit reward, you can use reward or correction as needed for forward heeling. Every dog is different and you need to read the need! Main purpose is to get the first reward during the OB routine belong to the exercise you are focussing on and get the dog to remember that particular exercise as the "first" reward only comes there. It is all a balancing act. The play exercises help you get there by choosing reward points and keep drive and engagement levels high till the end.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Another way of saying it is "you can't teach them everything at the same time by rewards or corrections" choose 1 item, reward for that 1 item as first reward. If that item comes after 3-4 other items that you have already taught and perfected, then use the play tools to get the dog to perform great for those 3-4 items THEN reward for the item that you are focussing on. One thing at a time, the training tools (plays routines) buffer the dog past earlier known items without losing drive or handler engagement. Make sense?


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## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Great explanation, this is how I have trained my dog works great, dog is always in drive and continues to maintain it. When getting ready to go on to the field before a competition I have a simple routine that builds the drive.

At the end of exercises and before the begining of the next if I observe a sublte decrease always do a subtle exercise that continues to build the drive.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> Another way of saying it is "you can't teach them everything at the same time by rewards or corrections" choose 1 item, reward for that 1 item as first reward. If that item comes after 3-4 other items that you have already taught and perfected, then use the play tools to get the dog to perform great for those 3-4 items THEN reward for the item that you are focussing on. One thing at a time, the training tools (plays routines) buffer the dog past earlier known items without losing drive or handler engagement. Make sense?


 
So as an example of using this method:

Lets say I have taught the forward heel and turns..and want to focus on a down in motion. With the back up and reward routine.

So I "foose" the dog forward 100 paces make an about turn (at this point I notice a slight decrease in drive) so I backup two paces BUT I do not reward (as I have previously) her drive comes up as she anticipates reward, I resume my forward motion a few paces, down the dog in motion and reward.

The next round I heel the dog forward but because I noticed in the previous round that her duration needs building I walk forward 20 paces back up two, mark and pop the ball.


Am I understanding this right?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> So as an example of using this method:
> 
> Lets say I have taught the forward heel and turns..and want to focus on a down in motion. With the back up and reward routine.
> 
> ...


Yes sorta, but I would not extend the 1st leg to 100 paces but that's just me (you may have a super dog). If I have to go a 100 paces then I would run the motion exercises earlier at say 20-30 paces, reward, THEN go 170 paces and use reg reward/correction. Also I would not pop the ball reward for anything other before the down, give her hope for the down and use tools to maintain drive and position before that.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> Yes sorta, but I would not extend the 1st leg to 100 paces but that's just me (you may have a super dog). If I have to go a 100 paces then I would run the motion exercises earlier at say 20-30 paces, reward, THEN go 170 paces and use reg reward/correction. Also I would not pop the ball reward for anything other before the down, give her hope for the down and use tools to maintain drive and position before that.


 
Ahh so no reward on backups anymore until motion exercises are perfect? Will this lack of reenforcement not lead to her losing hope on the backup and thus diminish its effectivness as a drive builder?

When you say reg rewards/correction for the 170 pace heel do you mean IM popping the ball at various points to keep the drive up or just correcting inattention for 170 paces then doing a down in motion and popping a ball?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

You need to focus on getting 5 paces done right first, then think about extending.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Packen said:


> You need to focus on getting 5 paces done right first, then think about extending.


Ya I get that however the hypothetical questions are in relation to ensuring I understand the training method. Its not actually what I am doing right now.


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