# "Real" Protection Dogs



## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

I sometimes get requests from people looking for a "protection dog" that run the gamut from a dog that will alert to the presence of a stranger, or to alert on command, or to bite on command...and further yet: dogs that will engage in a realistic situation.

As some discussion starters:

What do you feel a dog should be capable of to be considered a "Real" protection dog? Sleeve? Suit? Hidden sleeve? Muzzle work? 

What kind of scenario based training do you engage in to fit your lifestyle?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think it's important to define the mission of the dog in determining the extent of the training. For a dog that has an expectation of real engagement and sustained tactical use....then all of the training with aforementioned equipment should be instituted. Strong work in different places and different surfaces should also be trained. Defense of vehicle, buildings, and handler should also be incorporated, IMO.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I think it's important to define the mission of the dog in determining the extent of the training. For a dog that has an expectation of real engagement and sustained tactical use....then all of the training with aforementioned equipment should be instituted. Strong work in different places and different surfaces should also be trained. Defense of vehicle, buildings, and handler should also be incorporated, IMO.


Indeed. I agree wholeheartedly. 

That's the difference between a "Protection Dog" and a "Deterrent Dog", in my mind.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Is this discussion for police dogs, personal/private use or both?

I like what _*cliffson1*_ wrote about training in different places and different circumstances. Our 1st trainer had protection classes. I often wondered if those dogs in the classes would only perform at the facility.

Our 2nd trainer has trained dogs to fiercely bark on command, definitely looks very scary, and a good deterrent. The dogs were on leash so this type of protection work could be done in a variety of situations.

I personally would not want my own dog to be trained to actually bite as part of protection work. I've seen a local K9 officer go through a drill with the ESU and he warned the officers that sometimes K9s might bite an officer in all the excitement of pursuing someone and advised the officers to relax and not over-react if bit. So I would not want to take that chance with my personal dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I really like KNPV style training. If I were to train a PPD, I'd go with those methods. I like the search and guarding exercises. Everything is done off leash so obedience is very important as well.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I really like KNPV style training. If I were to train a PPD, I'd go with those methods. I like the search and guarding exercises. Everything is done off leash so obedience is very important as well.



If you like GSD's that do KNPV : Watch for the solid black GSD...he is a PH2, this is from the 2010 Championships. I think he was third. (Dodge Kiradesja)






My friend in France just bred to him, and coincidentally, the puppies are being born, as we speak.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

thanks for sharing the video! I was at a seminar with some Dutch LEO and trainers and they aren't fond of GSD's....said they are full of HD and weak nerves. lol
Then one of them worked Karlo and a couple other GSD's. The size of the GSD was more than they are use to, and I could tell that was another reason they are more into the Dutch/Mal's!


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

There are some great GSD's out there...there is no disputing that. I like seeing a KNPV GSD, since it is a sport dominated by Mals and Dutchies...mostly crosses, actually. 

It is always hard to determine with *any* sport evaluation though...how much is the dog/genetics, and how much is training and/or conditioning the exercises...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

right, but I think the Dutch dudes are a bit biased to the smaller structured dog. I tend to agree, the dogs they breed are so stealth and athletic for what they work them for. When Karlo was worked by the decoy, the decoy was pretty worn out, and I could tell K's 90# frame was more than he was use to...kind of like the IPO helpers working the rotties.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Tim Connell said:


> I sometimes get requests from people looking for a "protection dog" that run the gamut from a dog that will alert to the presence of a stranger, or to alert on command, or to bite on command...and further yet: dogs that will engage in a realistic situation.
> 
> As some discussion starters:
> 
> ...


In the quote box in blue are the only things I could think of at the moment. 

Tim thanks for starting some threads I'm actually enjoying reading.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Tim Connell said:


> If you like GSD's that do KNPV : Watch for the solid black GSD...he is a PH2, this is from the 2010 Championships. I think he was third. (Dodge Kiradesja)
> 
> KNPV 2010 Eindhoven Deel 2.mov - YouTube
> 
> My friend in France just bred to him, and coincidentally, the puppies are being born, as we speak.


Dodge is owned by Ma Ming. My dog's mother's breeder just bred to him as well. Dodge is a son of Inox v.h. Ming who is 3/4 brother to my dog's grand father Kobalt v.h. Ming. I promise you that these dogs are solid as a rock. Zero nerve issues. Great examples of what the breed should be in my opinion.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There's a whole world out there in tactical uses of the dog in protection work. Often when you introduce environmental challenges, heights, water, fire, enclosed surfaces, planes,trains,buses,and extreme rubble, you would be surprised at how the dog reacts and the amount of dogs that either shut down or function so tepidly as to not be effective. A strong PPD I think should be introduced to as much of the routine world as possible for exposure.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> There's a whole world out there in tactical uses of the dog in protection work. Often when you introduce environmental challenges, heights, water, fire, enclosed surfaces, planes,trains,buses,and extreme rubble, you would be surprised at how the dog reacts and the amount of dogs that either shut down or function so tepidly as to not be effective. A strong PPD I think should be introduced to as much of the routine world as possible for exposure.


I agree. 

Additionally, if the dog cannot be stable out in public, what good is it as a protection dog if it is locked up at home and not out with you?


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

robk said:


> Dodge is owned by Ma Ming. My dog's mother's breeder just bred to him as well. Dodge is a son of Inox v.h. Ming who is 3/4 brother to my dog's grand father Kobalt v.h. Ming. I promise you that these dogs are solid as a rock. Zero nerve issues. Great examples of what the breed should be in my opinion.


Yes, I am interested in seeing pups from these breedings.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Tim that is why a few of us have been placed on a police k9 committee FoR the USCA. We are designing a new title as WPO/DPO was eliminated. We are designing something that us not an arbitrary routine and puts real pressure on the dog in order to hopefully be a decent test of breed worthiness. Wish us luck.....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Tim Connell said:


> I agree.
> 
> Additionally, if the dog cannot be stable out in public, what good is it as a protection dog if it is locked up at home and not out with you?


Seldom would a PPD be available to protect when necessary anyway. We can't just take our dogs anywhere and everywhere. I feel the most vulnerable in a parking lot going in and out of stores. My dog isn't allowed in those places, so no way could I be protected. 


> We are designing something that us not an arbitrary routine and puts real pressure on the dog in order to hopefully be a decent test of breed worthiness. Wish us luck.....


 I can't wait!! Good luck :fingerscrossed:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

excellent dog , that Dodge . Just goes to show you how split the breed is - in body and "soul" -- (conformation and temperament).


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

we on the comittee have some innovative ideas. we'll see


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Additionally, if the dog cannot be stable out in public, what good is it as a protection dog if it is locked up at home and not out with you?"

absolutely important - can not say this enough times.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ladylaw203 said:


> Tim that is why a few of us have been placed on a police k9 committee FoR the USCA. We are designing a new title as WPO/DPO was eliminated. We are designing something that us not an arbitrary routine and puts real pressure on the dog in order to hopefully be a decent test of breed worthiness. Wish us luck.....


Excellent. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with and I hope it is well supported!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Me too. I like many of the SDA exercises but their trials are so few and far between. There hasn't been one in MI since fall of 2010 despite two different clubs keep telling me they are planning them. I don't consider my dog a "personal protection dog" but I like training outside the box (ie, not just SchH exercises and will my dog release a sleeve before I speak the "s" in "aus" sort of thing).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My dogs are mainly used as a first line of defense to give me time to get to my main object of defense. I use them mostly as a deterrent in my vehicle and in and around my home/farm so my training revolves around these areas. I mostly do IPO and then add in suit and hidden sleeve work.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

To me, just having a GSD with you is kinda like walking around with a shotgun. It may, or may not be loaded but most people aren't going to try to find out. 

I personally don't feel like I need protecting from my dogs, so not something I really put a lot of thought into. (I'm normally more worried about protecting people from my dogs lol)


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

ladylaw203 said:


> Tim that is why a few of us have been placed on a police k9 committee FoR the USCA. We are designing a new title as WPO/DPO was eliminated. We are designing something that us not an arbitrary routine and puts real pressure on the dog in order to hopefully be a decent test of breed worthiness. Wish us luck.....



Oh, nice. I am a member, but hadn't noticed that info...thanks for the heads up! Any ideas on time frame?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Renee, I also hope y'all come up with some good stuff....good luck!


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

We are trying to knock it out in a timely manner. Keep you all posted


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Are you considering letting retired police handlers or trainers being able to compete....I think that would really enlarge the participation of this aspect of USCA.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Seldom would a PPD be available to protect when necessary anyway. We can't just take our dogs anywhere and everywhere. I feel the most vulnerable in a parking lot going in and out of stores. My dog isn't allowed in those places, so no way could I be protected.
> I can't wait!! Good luck :fingerscrossed:



you can run to your car and let your dog out lol


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

There are discussions with regard to folks other than working police being able to obtain the title yes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Super!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I'd love to go after that title with my male. If there's one thing he is exceptional at, its taking any amount of pressure and keeping a clear head


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Hunter, I really love your male! 

Lisa- does your club do hidden sleeve, suit, or muzzle work? These are all things I'm interested to see if Grim would like to do. I'd also like to keep secondary options open for him. I was told his background would be good for PSA, but of course there's nothing like that around here to do. He's not old enough yet, anyway, but if things change in the meantime that would be GREAT!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Once the dogs have good obedience and control plus have progressed well in the SchH work we often do some suit work. Depends a lot on the dog. The hidden sleeve work I have done separate from the club and both our helpers have also done. Unfortunately I have never had a chance to do muzzle work though I would love to with Deja. She would be brutal.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That sounds great! (I honestly didn't mean now, or even near future) One thing I'm afraid of is a dog that gets so focused on a sleeve they won't bite anywhere else, including a hidden sleeve. If you even do put Deja in a muzzle, I'd like to see it, too.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Here is one example of a Real Protection Dog, note that the Decoy is wearing a hidden sleeve for the scond bite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5osw4ynoUI



Kim


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Pirates Lair said:


> Here is one example of a Real Protection Dog, note that the Decoy is wearing a hidden sleeve for the scond bite
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5osw4ynoUI
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thats a thinking dog! Love the intensity, there's a dog you can be proud of.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Another example of a Real Protection Dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n3TlqQZVyQ


Kim Moore
Canczech Dogs
K9 Pirates Lair


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Love it!


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Love that second video.....especially the ooouuuuuttttt bit.......what a great dog...........I'm gonna watch it again


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Thank you for the nice comments, there should be a law against having as much fun with your dog as we do.....but there ain't.

Until there is, we will keep playing with and having fun with our K9 Pirates

Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

This is what happens on Easter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeklo9iatYU


Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

This is a video of civil work (no equipment, no sleeves, stick or whip)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTxEOBWsnU


Kim


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Pirates Lair said:


> This is what happens on Easter
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeklo9iatYU
> 
> ...


 
Oh my gosh this had me rolling. You have way too much time on your hands hahaha. Nice to see you guys having fun and including the kids.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Great fun video. That's what I think of when I think GSD. Do the job and hang out with the kids.


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