# Two Legs This Weekend - AKC rant lol



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Rooney got his first two Rally Novice legs this weekend, first place both times with a 98 and 100. Sadly, this is the second time for us going through the Novice level because the first time I went through in Novice A not knowing that his Beginner Novice title in Obedience made a difference in the rally ring. I called the AKC and tried to reason with them, but they wouldn't budge on their rules...

Now I kind of want to send them a letter telling them it made no difference what class he was in, and I hope they choke on the couple extra dollars they get out of me because I have to do it all over again. I would've gladly just entered Rally Advanced B, but no, they wouldn't let me do that. These are the kinds of things the AKC does that keep younger/new people out of the sports, they make 200 page rule books that no one reads and then catch you on technicalities. I was planning on getting an RAE on my boy during his obedience training, but now I'm not going to. Just shows how much they need the money when they won't make an exception like that.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Congratulations on getting two legs on the same weekend. I know it's frustrating to have to do over because of rules and I'm not sure I would have known that that title counted toward the Rally rules. So I'm wondering since all the dogs that advance to Rally Advanced have novice titles why doesn't that count? I am currently getting ready for my first trial at advanced. We had a long time between her getting the RN and now so I'm not sure how it's going to go. My trainer moved away and there really aren't any other good ones nearby so I've been doing it by myself but I know being in a class with other dogs would be better for her so I'm in a dilemma - should I pay an instructor that I really don't agree with just so Raina can be around other dogs while training or do I just keep doing what I'm doing inviting other people I know with dogs to come and work the courses I set up myself. Since Raina can be slightly DA with dogs she doesn't know I'm paranoid to try taking her off lead around dogs at a trial and that isn't helping my confidence any either.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Congratulations, that really sucks about the mixup though


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is not so much about the scores or the passing of an individual dogs. It is about having some equality among competitors in the particular ring. If I earned legs in Novice A obedience they would not count because that class is reserved for those who have never put a CD on a dog before. I like it that they reserve the A classes for the less experienced competitor. When trying to figure out the complexities of Rally, I just entered the B classes to be safe. It can be confusing!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Samba said:


> It is not so much about the scores or the passing of an individual dogs. It is about having some equality among competitors in the particular ring. If I earned legs in Novice A obedience they would not count because that class is reserved for those who have never put a CD on a dog before. I like it that they reserve the A classes for the less experienced competitor. When trying to figure out the complexities of Rally, I just entered the B classes to be safe. It can be confusing!


I understand why they do it, but it clearly didn't make a difference lol. I think most people that do obedience trials will agree that rally is a pretty large step down and its like a sure thing every time I enter the ring. I get what they're saying about obedience having something to do with it but even in the B classes the dogs that have trialed in obedience are head and shoulders above the dogs that haven't. I was just trying to explain to the AKC that I made a mistake and I would be willing to enter all my future trials in the B class, but they wouldn't have it, they just wanted their entry fees for 3 more trials.

I wouldn't really think about it if my dog had scored lower, but he actually got higher scores in the B class than he did when we went through the A class (and they're supposed to be more lenient in the A class). I told the AKC on the phone that it wouldn't matter and he'd breeze through the B class, and I'm kind of happy that I proved myself right.

In my opinion, if they really want to make things equal they shouldn't allow any obedience titled dogs to even do rally, and also no one should be allowed to go for their 2nd + RAE, but they do, because they want the money. My dog has his BN and 2 legs towards his CD and he's way ahead of most of the dogs I see in rally excellent trials, maybe its people sending their dogs in before they are ready, or its just people that go in knowing its almost impossible to NQ in the rally ring (no one in their right mind would enter an obedience trial if they knew their dog had issues with one of the exercises, that would just be a waste of $25).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, I do understand. Unfortunately, it doesn 't have any thing to do with whether the team can perform the behaviors as required. I can see that they would not entertain any argument in that regard. I can understand no bending of the rules in these particular situations. It is unfortunate when it happens. My obed buddy did the same thing when Rally came out and had to repeat. My conformation friend had to lose her 5 point major win because of entry in the wrong class. No fun!!

Yes, it can be a real advantage in doing Rally if a dog has other obedience titles. But, not neceesarily so. My little dog with only a CD beat many OTCH dogs who were doing Rally in the beginning. Rally has some interesting features that make the competition a bit different from the regular stuff.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

It didn't make a difference to you, but in the A class when your dog scored 100 maybe you beat a beginning team who scored 99, or scored 100 but was slower.

Congratulations on your win. Those are great scores.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Caledon said:


> It didn't make a difference to you, but in the A class when your dog scored 100 maybe you beat a beginning team who scored 99, or scored 100 but was slower.
> 
> Congratulations on your win. Those are great scores.


Very true, and thanks. I know at least once we came in 2nd and I've never gotten this high of scores in A class...so that's kind of the interesting part too. I know every judge and course is different but it's just interesting to see that comparison. I just think rally and obedience should be completely separate events, and titling in one shouldn't influence your class in the other. I know their original goal was for people to get involved in rally and then move onto obedience, but rally has grown into its own little monster with people doing just rally for years and years with their dogs and getting 5, 6, 7 + RAEs on them. One lady at a show I went to had 40 RAEs on her dog...and not a single obedience title.

Again, I understand why they wouldn't bend the rule for me, just disappointed and venting a little due to the IMO stupidity of the rules.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are some "professional" Rally dogs, to be sure!


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Why would anyone want to get 40 RAE? I really don't understand going beyond 1, well maybe I can. You can become addicted to competing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry there was a mix-up but the mistake was yours not the AKCs. The whole point of Rally is to make a bit of a step between CGC and Obedience or Agility. It did kind of take on a life of its own, but to encourage new people, they want green dogs and green handlers in Rally Novice A. By then they either have you snagged or not. So if you have ANY obedience or Rally title either on the handler or the dog, he cannot be in Rally Novice A. It kind of gives the other green handlers incentive. 

If people who already know the ropes, how to get a title, are always getting top scores, they (the complete newbies) have no chance at getting ribbons.

So the AKC is right to make you redo, in my opinion. Not knowing the rules does not mean that you are not required to follow them. 

However, you would think that in the three weeks between the time you send in your entry and actually go to the trial, someone could punch the number and name of the handler into a computer somewhere and let you know if you are eligible to be in novice A. 

I titled three dogs in Rally Novice A, totally legitimately, got legs on four dogs in A, and then had to switch to Novice B to finish Jenna's title, but I finished Arwen, Rushie and Babsy at the same show. The placements are tougher to come by in B, because you can have several perfect scores in a class. So even if you have a 99 you might not place. And even if you do have the top score, your time (we don't do marathons) might knock you down to 3rd place -- been there done that with Babs in Cleveland.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Selzer you hit it right on the head, but I thought I was a newbie...it was my first time in the rally ring and just because I had trialed and titled in beginner novice doesn't make me an expert at rally.

But its true, when I send in my form 3 weeks early, you'd think someone would look these things up and make sure these kinds of things don't happen. But they look them up post show, about 3 weeks later, so its kind of a weird system. I'm not really blaming the AKC, but I do believe its easier to get 100 in Novice A then in B. I rarely see 100s in any class, and I was shocked I got it. I knew the run was really good, but to be perfect is really really good.

As much as their rules are meant to welcome newbies, I think they keep many out with the different classes and how you move up into them. They just need to standardize them IMO.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't think the AKC has access to the entries until after the show? The volunteers working at club activities are not going to look up all exhibitors to be sure that they entered correctly. The AKC gets the paperwork after the show and only then does the central office get a chance to check. I am not sure how that works though. 

Did you write in the BN title on your dog's name section? I have seen that spark a question by an astute club volunteer when processing entries. But, that is not saying every one of the non-paid helpers would know to catch that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also don't think akc has access to entries until after the show, and doubt they would have the time or inclination to check out every entry prior anyhow.

I also don't think it's was just about getting your money. (tho I do think AKC is a moneymaker), it's about the 'rules', 'one' is supposed to 'up' on the rules newbie or not.

I haven't done rally yet, but from what I know of obedience/agility Novice A and Novice B are the same classes with the same rules, the only difference is A is for new handlers with no titles and B is for handlers with a previous title.

I think alot of people stick with rally, because it spices things up , whereas obedience can be 'boring', maybe they want to 'do' something with their dogs and with rally being a little easier it's a good way to get their feet wet. 

I give anyone credit for getting out there and doing something with their dogs.

Congrats on your two new legs


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> and also no one should be allowed to go for their 2nd + RAE, but they do, because they want the money.


I for one went for the RAE2 and started on a 3 with a 8-10 year old dog who still wanted to do things with me. Rally was interesting and less stressful on him than obedience. It is a great venue for older dogs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I did a lot of Rally Novice legs with my son's dog. I guess there was no point to that really. But,it was something fun to do and the little dog loved it. I so enjoyed exhibiting with her!I think that some people really love Rally. If they like to compete in it, what would be the harm in multiples?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't see the harm in it either, if its something enjoyed by both dog and person who cares? It's their money, their time, and to get 40 RAE's WOW, something to be proud of and heck I'd be bragging about it! It's not like they are repeating the same exact course each time.

Lots of agility people go for more than one MACH, which is certainly an accomplishment to.

Maybe it's jealousy for the nay sayers? (not directed at anyone/just general)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Now that I am thinking about it. If you have a dog you have trained in Rally and it will compete well multiple times and you like to do it then go for it! Wish I had a lot of money for entry fees. It is about enjoying exhibiting for many people. I know Rally was supposed to be a stepping stone to obedience titles, but it kind of has become its own thing for some people. I can think of worse developments in the world. But, hey, I like the A and B class distinction too.

Dag gone it if I didn't have fun with my "A" dog! She was a unique and fun German Shepherd. Always be special memories, those "A" days!


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## calirose (Jun 26, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the mix up for you. I am brand new to showing my gsd, and I took her to her first show a month ago. She wasnt even a year yet. I paid the fees for Novice A for two days and was very nervous and excited. I showed shepherds 30 years ago as a kid with my mom in the show ring. The first day, she almost pooped in the ring, hahah, it was the only thing I hadnt thought about going wrong, so the judge excused me. She didnt actually poop, and I only had three stations left but he made me leave. The next day we came back even more ready. I just wanted to finish the pattern and get experience in the ring. We got a 85, which i was happy about. But was told that to finish her in RN, I now have to go to the B, because I now have experience, but was told by someone else I can stay in A since I have know other titles??? So confusing.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

You can stay in Novice A until you finish your Rally Novice title. You can continue in the Rally "A" classes until you finish your Excellent title OR until you finish another Obedience title. Then you must move to the "B" classes.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

calirose said:


> Sorry to hear about the mix up for you. I am brand new to showing my gsd, and I took her to her first show a month ago. She wasnt even a year yet. I paid the fees for Novice A for two days and was very nervous and excited. I showed shepherds 30 years ago as a kid with my mom in the show ring. The first day, she almost pooped in the ring, hahah, it was the only thing I hadnt thought about going wrong, so the judge excused me. She didnt actually poop, and I only had three stations left but he made me leave. The next day we came back even more ready. I just wanted to finish the pattern and get experience in the ring. We got a 85, which i was happy about. But was told that to finish her in RN, I now have to go to the B, because I now have experience, but was told by someone else I can stay in A since I have know other titles??? So confusing.


Congratulation on the 85 the second day. It must have been exciting for you. I remember the day Raina got her 3rd Novice Q, we had been showing for 3 days in a row and she had an upset stomach. The poor girl had diarrhea and an upset stomach that didn't make itself known until we were about to go in the ring. We made it through the course and right out the door before Raina "went" but looking back at the video of that course it looks like we are in fast forward. She wanted to get out of that ring and go out. We got an 87 that day if I remember right - it was her lowest score of the three days we Q'd. It's been a long time now and I want to get back into Rally so we are going to a show in a couple weeks and I'm going to do the Novice B just to get her back in practice. I am not ready for Advanced yet - the off leash part is pretty scary with a DA dog.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I know this is an old topic, but, did you read the entry form you signed? Also, if you earn any UKC obedience or rally titles, those count as well. Maybe you can take some solice knowing that there are a lot of people who have made the same mistakes. And that's how we learn. Love the quote from Batman, "And why do we fall, Bruce?, So we can learn to pick ourselves up." (I think I'll make that my signature.) 

Enjoy Rally I think it's a lot of fun, but I wouldn't get an RAE40. 

All AKC entry forms have this line:
In consideration of the acceptance of this entry, I (we) agree to abide by the rules and regulations of the American Kennel​
Club in effect at the time of this event, and by any additional rules and regulations appearing in the premium list for this event,


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Andaka said:


> You can stay in Novice A until you finish your Rally Novice title. You can continue in the Rally "A" classes until you finish your Excellent title OR until you finish another Obedience title. Then you must move to the "B" classes.


I know this is an old thread but i have a question. Does the CGC count as an obedience title or is it just considered an award? Lobo has his CGC and we are going to be trailing in Rally Novice A and Beginner Novice A in OB. I am just kinda confused by the A/B rules.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

CGC can now be a title, but it is not considered an obedience title.

You will be rally novice A until you receive your RN title. (Once you have your RN title, you can continue to show in rally novice A for 60 days) Now, if you should get you BN in obedience, you will have to be in Rally novice B. 

It has messed up a lot of people because they figure they are in A because they're new to rally, but any obedience title (even the preferred classes) will put you in rally B.

Hope that helps!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Karla said:


> CGC can now be a title, but it is not considered an obedience title.
> 
> You will be rally novice A until you receive your RN title. (Once you have your RN title, you can continue to show in rally novice A for 60 days) Now, if you should get you BN in obedience, you will have to be in Rally novice B.
> 
> ...


And, you can't flip that around and apply it to obedience. Even with a Rally title, you will still be in Novice A until you or the dog have titled in Obedience.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Right on, Selzer! Good point.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Thank you both! That was very helpful


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