# Got a Halti, and..



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

... I dunno. I bought it in 2 sizes, just in case one didn't fit well. I slipped it on Grimm as he sniffed it, then buckeled it behind the top of his neck, and...... no reaction. I gave him a cracker, a lick of yogurt from my finger, and a lil bit of honey as a snack. He then roamed round the apartment with it on. He really seemed unaware of it. Can it be he didn't know that he had it on? Of course, there was no lead attached-- I just want him to acclimate to it, as the articles on the web suggest I do for a few times each day for a while before even thinking of clipping on a lead.

Anyway, I have had a lightweight nylon muzzle on Grimm a few times for walks, snacks, etc. in the past, as the laws here are now that no big dog can ride the trains here in Germany without a muzzle. It fits on about the same way. Anyway, he hasn't had THAT much practice wearing the muzzle.... I was just surprised he didn't try to remove the Halti at all.

It's actually a Karli brand Halti look-alike.

How do you issue a correction using a Halti? Or, do Halti users simply have the philosophy that removing something the dog wants will be enough of a motivation/correction to stop bad behavior?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just put the Gentle leader(like a halti) on Onyx for her evaluation today. I bought it about six mos. ago, and only used it once.The last adjustment was so small, she has grown alot around the neck!
So I had to re-watch the dvd that came with it to refresh. For correcting, just change direction, DON'T pop, like a prong or choker. It also said if the dog is pulling too much to raise his head, w/ your hand in a cupping motion under the chin and put him into a sit. As soon as he lowers into a sit, release and reward. I was surprised how well Onyx did on this,no pulling and she had it on for over an hour and only tried to paw her nose a few times. My trainer informed me to keep it just under the "crinkles" of the ears, as there are calming nerves there, and the pressure of the collar helps. I am going to use this instead of the prong collar, due to Onyx fear aggression.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

You don't make the correction using a head halter for dogs. They will give themselves the correction when they pull. 
I use Gentle Leaders on my own dogs, and love the results. Good luck!
Sheilah


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

But... he needs a correction the split-second BEFORE he pulls, to break his train of intent. The reason I got the Halti is not to stop pulling, he walks fine. I got it because it was suggested it can help with a leash-reactive dog who lunges/barks at other dogs when on lead.

Therfore, what I do NOT want, is Grimm charging headlong into the Halti in a sudden, extremely powerful burst.... this is what he does, the lunging bit. I don't want him to be hurt by the Halti, nor, God forbid, for the thing to break.

Leash with prong in one hand, leash with Halti in the other? Correct his train of thought with prong, then lure him towards treat with Halti for Watch command when highly distracted?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Ideas?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I used a Halti on my girl for a while. Keep him close, I think the danger is when they run and hit the end. If you keep him close you can prevent that. I always considered it like I would when I had horses, the more unrully they were the closer up the lead I was.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

The one thing I just thought of, is this training kind of sounds like crittering.....if you get as far away from other dogs until you can get his attention and work on the focus thing, then get closer and closer...if he stops responding to you, you have to back up and start further away again. Until when he sees the other dogs he automatically looks to you for the treats or reward or whatever you are using.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

From my experience with it with one dog, leash aggression isn't going to go away with a Halti...and somehow, 
I doubt 2 leashes is going to lessen it, but possibly increase it.

You can't correct with a Halti, and if he self corrects hard enough, he could injure his neck. Be careful there...keep him close is good advice.

Hadn't heard about the crinkle ear pressure point before though, maybe that would have helped.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Slipped the Halti on just for him to acclimate a few nights ago, to wear around the house, Dicd it again this morning, and-- decided to try a walk with it on.

Findings: The Halti does the opposite of keeping the dog exactly where you wish, as you cannot truly correct for heel position to get *accuracy*.

I found I was nervous about hurting him, scared to put any pressure and upset him. Grimm did GREAT.. but his person was anxious.








We walked a lil, and he adapted to it without so much as a head-shake, nose-pawing,... nothing. I was starting to relax as much as he was with this Halti thing.

Suddenly, about a half block away, a collossal black Giant Schnauzer appeared on the scene! Eyebrows and beard bristling with indignation, tail cranked over his back, strutting: "Yo Mama wears army boots!" kinda 'tude. No barking, but clear bodylanguage and 'real terrier character.'

For the first time, Grimm only made a minor brush (only slight hackling), and tried a low-key "Wiff" instead of an explosive volley of barking. I broke out my "aahhkk-aaahhkk, pfuuuuii..." and he settled very slightly... but still looking at the Black Terrier O' Death.







I asked for "Watch"-- and slowwwwly got it, without Halti pressure. I *clicked* my clicker and treated, giving low, slow, gentle praise. 

The Giant Schnauzer got closer, so I heeled Grimm away a little to get distance-- and he actually was relaxed enough to heel and not try to fight to get closer to the other dog and rumble!

As the other dog strolled about 5 car lengths in front of us, Grimm didn't wanna respond to Watch, so verbally, I "ahhkk-aaahhkk" then I gently but firmly used the Halti to turn his head, he made eye contact, got *click* treat, and the subsequent Watches went easier. He did keep trying to swivel his head to watch the dog as it went away down the sidewalk. I did need to use the Halti a few times for subsequent Watch commands, but, he realized there just was not gonna be a rumble with the other woofer, and then just responded to voice alone. 

Halti Conclusions: 

Crappy ability to achieve any accuracy with placement during a heel.

MUCH more relaxed dog!!! He seemed LESS reactive in the Halti. Truly, a huge difference-- Grimm seemed less stressed, more attentive, less likely to fire up!!

I feel nervous about this little wimpy Halti thing if he ever DID lunge/charge.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Grimm's Halti experience!*

Still not 100% sure if the Halti made the difference, but he WAS much, much more relaxed in this situation, and easier to work with in this.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

I would recommend that you run a short line between the snap on your leash and his regular flat collar. So leave his flat collar on and just have this extra strap that connects the leash to it, so if for some reason he gets his head out of the halti you still have the connection between leash and the other collar.

That's what we did with my Mom's dog and it worked well. Only once did he get his head out of the halti and he couldn't go anywhere because he was still attached to the leash.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Melanie, thanks for the idea. I am unclear how I would do that.







But I see the wisdom in it. I bought a normal, soft nylon flat collar at the time I bought the Halti. Do I have to somehow make a little bitty leash (not sure how?) to go from the leash snap to the flat collar's ring?

NEWSFLASH: Just back from another Halti walk. Yet again, I can honestly say that accuracy is totally out the window with this Halti.
There is also a sense of loss of control here, as I can't get the more immediate communication, nor response, that I could with the chain or prong.

The big plus-- we walked by 2 more dogs, maybe 3-- I couldn't see why an old man was waiting patiently by the bushes, methinks another dog was there that he was waiting to do it's business. Anyway, each time, Grimm was distracted-- but NOT unmanageable! Grimm's stress is much, much lower in the Halti. Yes, again, I was using the clicker and the treats to mark the Watch command when dogs were in sight. (but in the past i tried that with the prong too, and it was harder to get a good response)Again, I occasionally had to gently use the Halti to guide Grimm's face towards me to mark/click/treat when I asked for Watch. But-- everything-- and I do mean everything-- was easier in getting him to DO stuff. To heel away from the other dog, to get the Watch, everything. He is much, much calmer in the Halti. His stress in this situation is markedly less. Yes, he is edgy, distracted, and still hackles a bit. But now I actually CAN get him to respond-- walk away with me or do Watch. Plus, I think the old man I was talking about had a dog sniffing in the bushes-- and we walked within 1 - 2 car lengths of him!! Grimm did growl softly, but-- did NOT pull on the line, did NOT bark, did not hackle-- and-- gasp!!-- followed right along at **** as I turned us into our driveway. NOT possible before!

I hate the lack of being able to communicate immediately with the Halti regarding precision and placement for things when he drifts out of where I need him to be. But, I LOVE that Grimm, so far, only 2 walks where we saw other dogs, seems to be less stressed and more responsive to me and my voice using this! Yay!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Patti my personal opinion is if the Halti fixes the dog reaction problem work on that now, once that is more under control you can work on the heeling accuracy. Fix one thing at a time, then work on the next.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

If it helps Brightl elf......Ava never broke through hers....and she was/is very reactive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerPatti my personal opinion is if the Halti fixes the dog reaction problem work on that now, once that is more under control you can work on the heeling accuracy. Fix one thing at a time, then work on the next.


I agree. He is young and has lots of years to learn a formal heel. With my young dog we are working on socialization and manners. I've found that when the dog is under control, well-socialized, and alert to the handler they almost start to heel naturally.

Also remember that the halti or prong is simply a tool, a training aid. The halti does not fix the reactivity or teach the heel, you do. As I understand, a halti is supposed to give you more control and avoid the dog's oppositional reflex (pulling harder against whatever is on the neck), but it's up to you to constantly mark and reward for the correct response/behavior and shape what you want based on your communication of what is correct. I don't think the halti is designed for leash corrections.

As for safety, you can clip it to a well fitted flat or a choke collar. I use an Easy Walk on my Coke and I made a little attachment that hooks the harness to his collar. If he steps out of the harness I still have him by the collar.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

I agree with everyone else. Fix the reactivity, then work on heel position. 

I'm glad he seems to be much calmer and easier to control on the Halti. Hooray! And it sounds like you've had ample opportunity to test it out. Keep up the great work. I hope Grimm continues to improve.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Well, last dog-likely walk of the day, and.. no dogs on this walk.







But, we tried the Halti out twice today, and as noted above, things are improving. 

I'm just flummoxed. After being urged by friends who do dog sports to get harder and harder with Grimm, (and I believed in that idea, too... he is a workinglines dog, right? Czech, tough cookie?) I had to try these methods when Grimm seemed to be edging away from me emotionally, and the prong and corrections weren't working, and the problem seemed to either be getting worse or just never going away.

Maybe now Grimm will have alot to think about when he sees another dog-- will I ask for a Watch command, so he gets a treat? Will I ask for a left circle, so he looks up at me, and gets a treat? What if I want a kinda sudden but nicely focus-y fig. 8 heel pattern, finishing with a sit and treat? 

I wonder just how much extra stress the prong added? He doesn't get leash corrections in this method, (maybe that takes stress away, too?) but I do have my patented Thundering "PFUUUII!!" if I need it.

Sorry for so many questions, but doing things this way is new to me. I can't believe a change in my thinking & approach is having such a good impact, so far.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

It's possible this method will help you guys in new ways you hadn't thought of. Afterall, the main 'thing' with positive training is teaching your dog that what he does matters. _If I do this, I will get a treat. If I don't do this, I won't get a treat. Hmmm. . .I wonder what I can do to get a treat. Let's see what I can try!!!_

Not to mention being a human treat dispenser can help your dog see you as a good thing (treats are weaned off later, of course). _Whenever I'm out and working with Mom, I get treats! Yippee!_

I know with Ris' reactivity, it got pretty bad and I was always getting upset with her. (Can't do leash corrections with Risa.) But once I started thinking of it in a more positive light, things worked better. "Ooo look, another dog. Oh, you want to bounce bark and lunge? Fine. Go for it. But if you want to play tuggie or get a treat, you'd best look to me. Oh you did!? Isn't this much more fun?"

I bet, with time, you won't even have to ask him to watch you when you see another dog. His eyes will instantly meet yours. And that day, I hope you give him a BIG jackpot of treats!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

I hope an Oinkpot is in the future for us.







Thanks so much for your Risa stories, Jamie.. this REALLY helps right now! To be honest, changing my own mind about methods was hard, and it felt risky. I had to have the courage to go against advice of trusted friends with workingline dogs who do dogsport and are really experienced. But, Grimm was becoming 'closed' to me, instead of open and eager to work with me, and.. my corrections, even with prong, were annoying/wimpy anyway. I am starting to try this in the hope things will finally change. If I keep doing things one way, and it isn't working, I need to try another way.. radical phase shift that this is, i do see a better, more responsive, less stressed dog so far.

What helped Risa's reactivity the most? Anyone else got a reactive success story to share? hmm.. smells like another whole thread to me.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

I've been in your shoes. I started Ris with correction-based training but it didn't really work. And I thought clicker training was stupid. I'm so glad we ended up in a clicker class.







It really changed my view of things for the better. And it helped us become a better team. Nothing happened overnight. It's taken months for me to notice. But she's an entirely different dog than she was when I took her home. And her love of working with me is apparent. I like that I'm no longer just the anchor at the end of the leash.

I think if you continue with the positive training, you may very well find that Grimm is more attentive to you. I know he LOVES to play with other dogs and that's highly rewarding to him. Basically, you need to make yourself more fun than those other dogs. Make silly noises, smile, get excited. And always bring treats so you can reward him for the behaviors you like. If it weren't so inconvenient, I'd tell you to bring raw goodies with you. Afterall, if he's willing to jump out a window for a wrapper, his eyes would probably never leave yours if you had a bag of ground beef in your pocket!









Ris is still reactive. But it's getting to a point where I can manage it a bit better. The thing that I think helped the most was when I realized I needed to change my attitude. Once I stopped getting so frustrated and angry with her about her reactions, I was able to redirect her focus to me easier. She starts curling her lip at another dog, I just ask for her attention. Once she gives it, she gets a click/treat. Oftentimes she'll see another dog and will just turn and look at me. Click/treat. Sometimes, I just have to manage the situation better. If I notice another dog is getting close, I will keep Ris' focus on me and have her follow me away from that dog before she even notices it. Sometimes I can keep her focus on me and not the other dog practically on her butt without moving. . .but not always.

Playing tuggie also seems to work better on curbing her reactions when we're out on walks. Since she gets so revved up I know she needs a release. Tuggie does that for her. Plus it is an activity WITH me which redirects her focus. I also try and avoid passing close to other dogs because we're not there yet. And I know if we had to walk alongside another dog on the sidewalk, she'd try and lash out at it. Not to mention I can never count on other people to have control of their dogs so I avoid getting so close that I risk problems.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Patti, another possibility is that the prong added to the reactivity by making a negative association with the other dogs. To the human, it makes sense that we correct the lunging and barking, but the dog may not understand WHAT is wrong. In his mind, he's seeing another dog, thinking maybe there's going to be some fun play, but then he's getting yelled at and poked in the neck. I've seen dogs go from just reactive to leash aggressive because they are getting corrected and not understanding what the handler wants, thus they associate those corrections with the presence of the other dog and it makes excitement turn into aggression.

The halti is giving you control without all the physical corrections confusing the matter.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Jamie, you have GOT to write a book! You have gone through so much with Risa, and the fact that you guys can even be in classes at all-- let alone advanced stuff-- is testament to how amazing you guys are as a team and how far you have come.









Liesje, I used to think the other way around on this issue.. I am begining to suspect what you say is true-- and has been for some time.

WARNING: Haltis do NOT prevent a giant puppy-teen from hurling himself bodily on the ground in front of children, then rising up, tongue-slapping their chins and faces, etc. For the first time, I met some kids and was not able to control Grimm's kissy tongue-slappies. Bringing the clicker and treats out of my pocket did help (thank God Grimm is such a pig) by giving him sit command and down commands to follow, to stop the insane kissing-squirming rutine. Manners...


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

I'm very excited for your and Grimms progress! Big congrats!
Hopefully overtime you will become more relaxed as you feel more secure walking him, and he will pick up on your calmness and become less reactive. 

But you do want a second lead on him- or a leash with clips on either side, so one clip can attach to the Halti, and the other end to the regular collar.
I've used my lead and made a big loop with it over the front of the dog, so that it would hang down over the dog's knees. This prevents them from going forward and keeps them in a heel position. I learned that at the T-touch seminar and it works great.

A neighbor of mine from Britain (maybe it's a british thing?) used a stick- he would hold out the stick parallel in front of the dog and him. That would keep the dog from pulling forward and keep him in a heel. 
But as others posted, right now it's more important that you have control over Grimm and heeling is secondary and can always be worked on later on. Keep up the good work!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Thanks for the encouragement, Mädchen! 

The Report for our second day using this method: 
Today we saw 4 dogs. First dog he barked, then was hard to get focus, had to Halti his head about to get eye contact and click/treat rutine goin'. He was tense, but, not impossible the way he usually is.. i could still, with effort, work him in sits, heeling, recall on-lead, click/treating or click/chest-scritchin' the whole way. (We are not moving closer to dogs at all yet. I want a few weeks of just changing his mindset about what happens for him when a dog comes into view)

Second dog, he gave me super focus when asked to, did not bark or lunge, and the other dog was snarling.

Third dog, Grimm sprang forward with blustery barking, but then I got him under control and he was back doing some work for me and getting click-treated for focus... sometimes, he gave focus himself during this event.

Fourth dog, Grimm still stares intently, but I can nudge-nudge-pull and get the watch command going with the Halti, and heel him away, fig. 8 heel, click, treat, sit, down, chest scratch at end of it. 

Second day conclusions: He's still got a significant problem. I still need professional help here. But, I was never able to heel him away, get him looking up at me, get him to listen at all-- focus was ONLY on the other dog in the past, and now, his level of tension is much less... he is still tense, but now I am finally able, with work, get him focused back on me and on working and getting treats and chest scritches for focus and obedience stuff.

My hope is, with seeing dogs at least once or twice a day, to switch Grimm's reaction from one of tensing up when he sees another dog, to thinking: dog = work/treats/chest-scritches... better watch Mom, or he'll miss da good stuff!

Note: The Halti offers poor control when a soccerball zips by, kids run, etc. Feels like having a bucking, plunging baby rhino on a string.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*










Woo hoo! Sounds like you guys are definately making some progress.









BTW, you really have a way with words. I love your descriptions! "a bucking, plunging baby rhino on a string." Too funny!


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*



> Originally Posted By: Murphy-Elperroguapo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree!!! I laughed out loud when I read that as well. Also the edit reason: undercoat clump in keyboard ...








Glad things are progressing with you and the handsome Grimm, Patti


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: Grimm's Halti experience!*

Awesome!!! Tonight's visit to Petsmart was equally successful for us and we are essentially doing the same thing (minus the halti and clicker). Tonight was very busy with non-training class dogs, though. Flash did better than I thought he would (WAY better). Our only real trouble was continuing to run into the same owner that was allowing her little terrier to walk all over the place. The terrier was reactive so that made things more interesting. But by the time the terrier left, Flash was only glancing at it and then at me as we would run into it (almost literally a few times!).

Stick with it!


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## kutzro357 (Jan 15, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> 
> How do you issue a correction using a Halti? Or, do Halti users simply have the philosophy that removing something the dog wants will be enough of a motivation/correction to stop bad behavior?


You don`t really use a correction. It`s a gentle pull and it turns the head down to the side like a horse. It is different than a gentle leader that puts it`s pressure on the upper neck right behind the head. There is really no "correction" with either.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Got a coupler line.. not long. But I plan to use this as an emergency failsafe, should the Halti break or if he escapes the Halti.. this lil line will clip from his lead to a soft nylon buckle collar I'll have for emergency back-up.


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## Nina (Jun 5, 2007)

Have you checked out the Canny Collar? That looks a good one, although hard to find locally. I recently bought a Gentle Leader Harness, that moves the dogs body back to you, not just jerking their head, kinder.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Day 4 of the Halti/clicker/positive approach to frustration-onlead-doggy-aggression:

Amazing. We saw three dogs today. One big silver Siberian husky strutted into sight, brush tail cranked over his back waving, and Grimm barked and jumped a bit, but only semi-vigorous, and immediately calmed right down and began working (watch me, sit, heel, fig 8. heel, zippy left-circle heelwork, come-fore, etc) for his treats and chest-scritches. 

One large black lab 'doofusing along' was far away, and he really wanted to look at it as it went behind a hedge about 25 feet paralel to us on another walking path, but using the Halti, I could drag-nudge him into the Watch command and get him started doing some zippy left circle heelwork, sits, etc. He did keep trying to see where the dog was, but.. the intensity wasn't really there like it was in the past.

We saw a large (for the breed) longcoat Dachshund waddling along in a silky flourish of pride and attitude, right across the street from where we were walking. Grimm looked intently, but he seemed to be anticipating/expecting what he knew to happen next.. watch command, a sit, a come-on-lead, etc.. he responded fairly well. The 'watch' is split-second, but, it is at least there now.

Two of the four dog sightings today, Grimm did not even hackle up at all! We do still have a problem-- no question. But, so much of Grimm's tension is gone with this method. It has only been 4 days. Maybe in time, I can switch his expectation of a doggy rumble/prong pain/stress rising...... with anticipation of clicking, working, treats, focusing on me, getting those chest scritches he craves so much that he leeeeans into 'em.

All I want, is for him to be relaxed enough onlead someday, that we can safely walk by another dog at about 6 - 8 ft on a sidewalk, and not have him go Chernobyl on me, but rather remain CALM.

Note: The halti is helping him unlearn the prong stress. The clicking and treating is making the idea of work solidify in his consiousness during these times, and creates the positive association... but, I have noticed something: He REALLY likes the chest-scratch he gets when the dog is near and he is working for me.. I use it for some of the rewards. BIIIG chest-scritching as each dog has gone by us. I think this totally gives him a relaxing endorphin rush. He just eats this up, leaning into it, paw raised, grinning. Maybe seeing another dog soon won't seem so bad after all.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Great work, Patti!! And if he REALLY loves those chest scritches, use them! After all, the dog determines the reinforcer. If he loves them as much as it sounds like he does, then you have a constant supply of reinforcer. Excellent.

I'm so glad to hear how quickly Grimm is progressing. I love hearing updates. Keep up the great work.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks, Jamie and Risa!







To be honest, I'm truly flummoxed that this positive approach is WORKING. It was painful to adjust my mindset and try this. Leerburg site indicates onlead doggy aggression is about showing the dog who's in charge at these times, and so many friends with workingline dogs gave advice about harsher methods. I think after trying the prong for so many, many months-- I just had to admit that what I was using was not working. And THEN I had to throw the wrench in my thinking and change my approach. As pushy as Grimm can sometimes be, he is a sensitive soul.. and workinglines or not, I need to open my mind to other ways of working with my dog.

Positive approach-- ZZZZOOOMMMM fast retrieves and recalls, happy heeling..... not wonderful precision, but good intent on his part.

I also must say that with the Halti he seems more relaxed on walks. He drifts more, though, and we get into more "trouble"... if a kid shows up to snuggle him, it is like having a spunky baby mastadon cavorting thunderously on a piece of dental floss. His clodhoppers stomp & gallump, his jumbo-butt swings wide, knocking down kids in it's path, and he feels free enough to do a headstand on someone's feet... while I stand by helplessly, trying to pull a bit with the Halti. Ineffective fer shur. 

My hope is that in the future, there is a "middle ground" collar, where I can in time ditch the Halti, and find a positive, comfortable collar for Grimm that still permits me the control and accuracy I need to work on heeling and polite greeting & walking on those loooong walks.

Jamie, have you noticed much progress with Risa on the fear aggression issues? Has anyone got further ideas I should try? I'll have a go at almost anything.. since I have been doing things so wrong in the past, it is time to open my mind.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You can be a calm, effective leader without jerking on a collar. You just need to show your dog that you are in control and that you will handle any problems that arrise. Not an easy thing to do, sometimes. I know I messed that up early on with Risa. Now I'm trying to undo it.









I'm glad to hear how happy Grimm is to be working with you. That's one of my favorite parts of positive training. The utter delight the dog feels just working with you as a team. It just can't be beat, imho.









You can get precision work with positive training too. For example, with heeling, you only click/treat when he's in the position you want. If he forges ahead, no click/treat. If he lags behind, no click/treat. You can do some luring at first to get him in position. You can change direction quickly if he gets distracted then reward him profusely when he gets back in position. Once he knows what's expected of him, you can get picky and only click the behaviors you want. So if you want a sit in front and he's sloppy. . .no click/treat.









Two of the dogs in our Level 2/3 obedience class last night got to try the Halti harnesses. It really relaxed both of them and helped them walk alongside their owners. Our trainer recommended only using the Halti for about 2 weeks and then starting to wean them back onto a regular collar. It might be a bit different for you and Grimm since you need to have the control over him. But, then again, you may find in 2 weeks you are ready to start weaning him back. You might want to try a Martingale or limited slip collar for Grimm when you're ready to transition. They are similar to choke chains except that they have a limit to how tight they will constrict and are usually made of nylon or nylon and chain. Or you could try an Easy-Walk harness first and then transition to a Martingale or just a flat buckle collar. It's all what you're comfortable with. . .and what works for Grimm.

I am making good progress with Risa on her issues. She did amazingly well at class last night. She did still lift a lip and growl when the other dogs got too close but she was very easy to redirect. There were even a couple occasions where the other dogs got very close to her and she didn't react at all. She got a lot of verbal praise and treats for that. It's slow progress sometimes. That's for sure. But I'm more confident that what I'm doing is right and I've got a more positive attitude about it. And I think that helps immensely.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Quynne has a Halti for most of our walks. I find that if I hold closer to where the leash attaches to the Halti it gives more control in tenser situations. There is no extra tension on the lead but she is held closer to me and has less chance to react before I can stop her. I know that in your case your strength is lessened, but just the fact of being able to give a gentle tug towards you prior to a reaction lets a dog know YOU are in control rather than he.

All the best.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Strong packleader.. good reminder for me right now, Jamie.. thank you! I think you make good sense about the clicking into position ... it's hard when someone has a lonnnng walk to take, and needs the dog to stay in position for all of it.







We'll get there, I hope. The walks really do feel more sloppy, drift-y, out-of-control on the Halti, without being able to give Grimm a correction.. things feel.. can't explain-- loose, sloppy, slow-mo or just not in control. I do clicking and treating for a while, get sorta good focus, then can't keep it up.. walks can be 40 mins long here, as I live in a highrise in a densely cosmopolitan area. (am planning a move to a rural area in 1 - 2 years)

Qyn, thank you for the idea. I may just give that a try, as a reminder to him!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Update: A big noisy playgroup of off-lead dogs came out of nowehere on our walk today. Grimm reacted by barking/lunging. He was not easy to get into control, did growl-- but it was considerably much easier to begin working with him than when he was on the prong and super-stressed. He was highly distracted to say the least-- hackles up, too-- but he at least has some sense of what the usual drill is now: see dog, work and click/treating & chest-scritches to follow.

An off-lead dog suddenly zoooommmed up to Grimm, and Grimm sprang forward, landing with his front end on the ground and his butt in the air, tail wagging, mouth open and grinning. I tugged him back to me, and began working him as best I could after that close-call of having a party... his focus needs to be on me, until I say otherwise, dog or no dog.

We saw an on-lead Siberian Husky earlier today, and Grimm worked pretty well for me.

The halti was a complete and utter disaster at the vet's today, in the taxi, etc. It offers no real way to give a dog firm boundaries when the dog is doing what he pleases. I love the halti's effect on reducing tension in the absense of a prong in the program I am trying to use it for reducing on-lead doggy reactivity. BUT, I hate the way it leaves the handler with no option but to desperately attempt to click, treat, and work a strong-minded, ultra-distracted dog who may no be listening at all, basicly, there is nothing to get the dog's attention, and the dog can buck, snort, writhe, cavort-- ignore the handler-- if he isn't intrigued at the moment by snacks and working.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You may wish to just focus on loose-lead walking with Grimm instead of strict heeling. It is a lot to ask of a dog to walk in a strict heel for that long. Reward him for staying alongside you, not forging ahead, lagging behind, or pulling off towards the side. I wouldn't require him to be in perfect heel position with attention 100% on you for a 40 minute walk. That's a lot for any dog!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You're right, Jamie.. we're more causal than a strict heel. I do need to remember that, though.. thank you! (still dying laughing here from the Risa bath video!!)


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_"BUT, I hate the way it leaves the handler with no option but to desperately attempt to click, treat, and work a strong-minded, ultra-distracted dog who may no be listening at all, basicly, there is nothing to get the dog's attention, and the dog can buck, snort, writhe, cavort-- ignore the handler-- if he isn't intrigued at the moment by snacks and working"._

Yes, it does require alot of work and patience!

Aren't you just in awe, how trainers train wild killer whales at Seaworld only through operant conditioning. They can't use punishment at all, or the whale might just as easily kill them. They even have certain medical procedures done, draw blood etc. without restraining the whale with a prong collar. But it does take several months until the whale is trained and those trainers are required to THINK how they can get the animals to do what they want- through classical (assosciation) & operant (trial/ error) conditioning- they can't just choose the easiest way (a prong or electric collar).

So hang in there and keep up what you're doing - you're on the right track.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MaedchenSo hang in there and keep up what you're doing - you're on the right track.


AGREED!!

It may not be a 'quick fix' but, from what I've read and experienced, it's a more solid fix. You're not just supressing behavior but changing it. Instead of saying "No, don't lunge after that dog" (the equivalent of a prong correction) you're giving him something TO do instead. "Instead of lunging after that dog, look at me."









BTW, Ris and I are signing up for a "Relaxing your Reactive Rover" class. If I get any good information that I think will help you and Grimmi out, I will be sure to share.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the encouragement, Mädchen! Yes, this takes thinking-- and that's not a bad thing. Not having any control at all in some situations to get a dog's attention when he's in a highly driven state, can be anywhere from annoying/problematic to downright dangerous. The negative with this tool became very clear today.

The positive is currently outweighing any negatives with this tool however, because frustration barking/lunging on-lead with other dogs, as you said, really is helped HUGELY by the halti and the positive clicker training. Removing the prong helped remove the anticipation of tension, I think. He is desensitizing, learning a different expectation, a different response... this will take time. So far, it's just day 4.. we're really at the beginning. After almost a year on the prong, I have weeks if not months to go to undo any negative effect the prong may have had in doggy frustration on-lead situations.

I do have to think, and think fast. Here's an example of what a rutine might look like:
Another dog is far in the distance. Wait until Grimm sees it, too. Immediately ask for Watch. If no response, halti tug gently, slowly, but firmly, to get that Watch. Click & treat. Repeat. Repeat again. Ask for a Come. Click&treat. Back up, ask for another Come. Click& chest-scritch. Heel in a zippy left circle.. the second eye contact happens, low-toned, soothing praaaaaise, click, treat. Ask for a down. Click &treat. Ask for a sit. With eye contact, click&chest scratch with low, soothing praaaaiiise. Keep chest scratchin, until look of utter dreamy bliss comes over dog's face. Continue until dog is in cuddle-coma. Continue walk.

Jamie, you find the best classes for Miss Ris! I am so very proud of you two. I love hearing any training updates from the dynamic duo!!







And believe me, all secrets spilled regarding how to calm a reactive dog.. are much, much appreciated!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Unfortunately, the class is a 2-hour drive away. . .on a weeknight! The things I do for that dog.









You might try getting Grimm's attention BEFORE he sees the other dog too (if you can, I am aware that's not always possible). That way you sort of bypass the whole reaction entirely. Though he may still see the dog after you've gotten his focus, it might be easier to get it back.

Another tip I've learned from our trainer is to take some time to encourage them to watch that which causes them to overreact. I just started this over the weekend with Ris. I allowed her to watch people and dogs without me saying anything. If she was good and watched them without reacting (in this case, growling) she got a treat. Sometimes people can cause more problems by NOT letting their dog see that what they're reacting to is no big deal. By putting it on a command, you can let the dog know when it's okay to look at 'distractions.'


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Like in FeistyFido, "Where's the dog?" command, right? I think we will get to a state where we can practice watching and not reacting and getting treats for that. I think in a few weeks time, we will be ready for it. Right now, i think i need to re-program his usual response first. It's become so automatic. I blame myself for the prong exacerbating this for soooooo many, many, many months.







I have to un-do his instant reaction, replace it with a new sequence of behaviors. Then, in a few weeks, we will sit in a grassy area by The Zone of Many Fifis. (a place where everyone walks their lapdogs here) No comments from me, just some practice doing what Risa is doing-- chilling and learning to not react at all!









A 2 hour drive?? I have no doubt at all that Ris-Ris knows how wonderfully devoted to her you are!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Yes, like in "Fiesty Fido." And it sounds like you've got a perfect place to practice, the Zone of Many Fifis.







We have to settle with Petsmart since it's the only place where you can find lots of dogs and people on the weekends. Right now, we're staying in the car for our sessions. Mainly because too many stupid people try and pet Ris when we're out and we don't need the added stress.

And don't feel too badly about what you've done before with Grimm. You did what you felt was best with the knowledge you had. No one can fault you for that.







I did a lot of the same with Ris when I first got her. Not happy I did it. . .but I've moved on.









I hope Ris knows how devoted I am to her.







I made her a promise when I took her home that she'd be with me no matter what. I know I didn't realize how much work she'd be at the time, but I've made it my goal to work with her to 'fix her.' And since there's nothing local to help us with our problem, I will look outside our town. Our trainer recommended we sign up for this class too. Plus driving 2 hours isn't that bad for only 3 classes. We can manage.


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

Okay, where's that popcorn muching icon? That's how I feel.

Just wanted you to know that I've been following this thread with great interest. Patti, your experience with Grimm sounds very much like mine with Gracie. I've followed the same path, switching over to the halti. Leash corrections do not work with Gracie and I can't do them right anyways. I switched to the halti as I saw that leash corrections weren't working, I was getting frustrated and she was shutting down. As soon as I put the halti on I saw an improvement. I saw her relax more and as a result, we have gotten closer. She is still reactive to cars, other dogs and to strangers, but much less so, and I can totally relate to everything you've described. Only you've incorporated what I haven't so far, and that is the clicker to mark the desired behaviour and reward the behaviour you want. I'm so impressed with the postive results you've gotten so far. I think that's the piece I've been missing so I'm going to follow your lead and try it with Gracie. Keep posting on your progress, you are helping me out more than you realize. And thanks!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the kind words, GraciesMom.







To be honest, I'm scrambling to think of a new, thrilling dance rutine each time we see a dog. I have to, cos I can't use any delicious treats right now beyond just kibble, as Grimm is having digestive issues currently. Soooooo.. I have to think fast-- how to be interesting for Grimm! Dancing-heeling in left circles really seems to tickle his funnybone.

Today a dog surprised us, up close, and Grimm was a B-E-A-S-T. Unresponsive to the halti tugging, a big, blustery, distracted, lunging rhino on a string. Reminds me the problem is not close to being solved, reminds me of how much work we have yet to do.

We saw about 3 dogs after that first one, and he was super with each-- because we were (sort of) far away. But, I have noticed I not only can get his interest and get him working a lil closer than was possible before we began, but I also can left-circle him till about halfway to the other dog, and he keeps focusing, getting clicked and treated. He knows the other dog is there, but, he gets caught up in the dancing, heeling, clicking, treating. 

He loses interest in the other dogs sooner now. It used to be, he would strain to see, hear, smell them even as they were tiny dots in the distance walking away from us. Now, after we've gotten focus, done some left-circles, fig. 8s, (movement jazzes things up), some fun come-fores, and he's been clicked and treated for stuff he enjoys.... he gets his loooong chest-scritchings, then does look with interest at the other dog as it is getting farther away... but the intensity and stress is gone much earlier.

Because by the second time I got the Halti out to put on Grimm, he knew already how it was supposed to go on-- it reminded me how fast he learns new things. So, my hope is that "See other dog-- be eager to do zippy heeling/dancing with mom, do focus, get click/treated" becomes a learned habit to begin to replace the tense, frustrated, "Let's paaaarrrrttty!!" response he usually has. 

I vary our dance rutines. Today, in the midst of his fave-- zippy dancing/heeling-- I threw in a shocking Down, and even a totally unexpected Stay. Sometimes I heel s-l-o-w-w-w-w-w.. fascinates him. Novel and entertaining.. he'd better watch me, or he'll miss the show. "Now playing, at The Zone of Many Fifis..."


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Sounds like you're making brilliant progress. It's so nice to see.

You'll get there. Don't worry. It does take time. I'm FINALLY starting to see good results with Ris myself. Probably because I'm finally doing things right.









I can now walk her at a heel around other dogs in class without having to worry too much about her lashing out at them. I still have to be really vigilent and keep her focus on me, but it's getting easier. Yesterday, at our agility class, while doing right-side heeling (we haven't done a lot of this lately so she was doing a bit of drifting) one of the other dogs got a bit too close. Instead of throwing a fit and doing a 'not pretty' bark/lunge at him, she just did a soft air nip in front of his nose and kept on working with me. I was so pleased.

We're not there yet. And I know she's always going to be a reactive dog. But I hope someday I can finally get her under control and we can both relax a little.

Keep up the great work, Patti!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Patti,

I am glad that you are seeing steady improvement with Grimm. 

Thanks for keeping this thread updated. Rafi continues to have weird reactions to other dogs. I do have a gentle leader and will try it with him. I also have started a bit of clicker training and will do more. Today we got chased by a chihuahua and a lab. Quite a team. The woman had absolutely zippo in the way of control of those dogs and I had to physically step in front of the lab who was chasing Rafi and coming at me full speed. Then Rafi met another dog and was a total bully with that dog and I had run out of treats. Ugh. Anyway, I feel your pain.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jamie, I wanna be where YOUSE guys are!! Heeling around other dogs in an actual class.... see? You're my role models.







How long did it take to get Risa to that point?

Ruth, I appreciate the encouragement. So sorry you got charged by doofuses! Actually, the weird thing with the clicker training is, by magic-- it seems to pick up speed. Once your dog starts with any click and treat work, it kinda snowballs-- picks up speed-- the dog relaxes and does better, works smoother and faster for you. Totally unexpected result. I had no idea. I think part of the reason improvements in working with the dog start to pick up is that we are taken out of the picture, and the click says 'that's it!' or 'well done" and takes our petting, cooing, panicking, jerking, etc etc all out of the picture. Our emotions don't slow things down anymore. I don't think clicker training is the only way to go for all situations, but it is helping. In the moment another dog comes, quickly, it's "Speedy-speedy-speedy, what's Mama gonna do? Better watch, better focus, gonna dance, gonna zig or zag-- treats a-comin'!" I can see the mindset changing, the stress is less.... but, we have a long way to go. It's been less than a week yet. I wanna be where Jamie and Risa are!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I don't know how long it took. When she overreacted before, I would get frustrated with her and tell her to down and put her in a timeout. That was when I was before I was in my "who cares!" mood. Since I've adopted that new mood, things have been MUCH better. Though she still doesn't like other dogs in her space, she is more willing to ignore them and pay attention to me instead. Of course, class is one thing. Real life is another. Ris, having been enrolled in classes of many kinds since November 2006, knows the classroom and that it is a place of work. We're still working on realworld type stuff.

Though, I still must give her credit. Of the two dogs in the class, one she has met face-to-face before. The other she has only seen twice. So she is getting better and seems to know now that I will handle things. Probably because I DO handle things now instead of just going "CRAP! What'm I gonna do!?" I just finished reading <u>Scaredy Dog</u> yesterday and found out that my playing tug with Ris when she sees something distracting/scary is a way of showing her I will handle things. I had no idea.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I can get great behavior out of Rafi in a class situation. He's in an agility class with two little dogs and one is a pistol and often trying to get him to chase. Rafi will heal, off leash, without a problem! 

Sometimes when I'm out walking I've got Chama which complicates things but mostly it's harder because it's winter and I don't want to take my gloves off!







Plus I don't anticipate situations like being chased by a lab and chihuahua.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You can't anticipate situations like that! I HATE moments like that. *Grrr* Unfortunately, we run into a lot of them.

Sounds like you handled it well, though.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Brightelf, have you given up on your training? I think I saw that you are sending your dog away for training now. 

I see a lot of references to training material, "Scaredy Dog" being one. Has anybody seen the book "Help for Your Fearful Dog"?

It's time for me to step up training my Malinois and she is afraid of other dogs, she gets snappy and will try to rush past them when we are at agility practice. 

I'm going to get a gentle leader head halter tonight, and I started with clicker training. Also, on the show Barking Mad, I saw them working with a Doberman on a head halter, but they were using two leashes, one on the regular collar and one on the head halter. It's really got me interested and then I read this entire thread this morning. I really appreciate all the information here. I start tonight!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Carole, I am continuing the training, but due to a concussion when Grimm dragged me flat on my back down the sidewalk, am certain that with my disabilities, a trainer is a good thing.

I think that is super that you are begining this! I will myself keep up with this.. it will be at least 3 weeks before Grimm is able to go to the trainer anyway, so I will be using this method for now.

Grimm is not actually fear-aggressive. He's never had any limits regarding this behavior, and he's been successful in ignoring me to try to "get a party started" each and every time with other dogs. Anyway, I wish you the best with your dogs!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Carole,

Help for your Fearful Dog is an excellent book. The one that I like best as a training manual for dogs that have issues with other dogs is "Click to Calm."


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Carole, I'd also recommend <u>Scaredy Dog</u> by Ali Brown (which I just read over the weekend). I'm sure <u>Focus Not Fear</u> by Ali Brown would also be useful for you (it's next on my to-read list).


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Gosh! I think I missed the concussion! That's one strong dog. Balto wants to rush over to everybody he sees. He's 9 months old and very strong so he is also getting more attention on his training.

I think I'll start with Scaredy Dog and Click to Calm. I feel so bad doing the leash corrections when she lunges. She just looks at me like, "What? That dog was going to SNIF me!" Sounds like it's the wrong thing to do, anyway.


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