# Lots of Carbs for higher energy dogs?



## xenabella (Aug 23, 2011)

Has anyone else heard that you should feed higher energy dogs more carbs? To release more seratonin in their brains, thus making them more calm. I would have thought higher protien would have been better?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Actually, the main "energy carb" in dog food is corn, which is a serotonin inhibitor and will have the opposite effect on behaviour that you describe, because it's deficient in tryptophan (unless the dog food supplement tryptophan, which I haven't seen yet).

(When I was training, the first thing we did was take the dogs off a high corn food for better concentration and focus. Often the change was dramatic.)

But yes, high carbs for short spurts of energy in humans. Long term energy you want lower carbs and high fat. Dogs however, are not humans, and I believe that their digestive system is better suited to protein and fat than carbs.

It's hard to imagine a dog really "needing" a high carb diet, and always important to remember that carbs (sugars) feed cancer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

second what LisaT just said .
Dogs metabolize fats and proteins . 
I had the privilege to work with a professional sled dog racer to prepare his dogs for the season's competition circuit , which included the Iditarod . The energy came from fat -- unadulterated , in other words raw fat, not heated fat or drippings which many people resort to and wreaks havoc on digestion. Added chicken fat to the diet.

Carmen


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

carmspack said:


> second what LisaT just said .
> Dogs metabolize fats and proteins .
> I had the privilege to work with a professional sled dog racer to prepare his dogs for the season's competition circuit , which included the Iditarod . The energy came from fat -- unadulterated , in other words raw fat, not heated fat or drippings which many people resort to and wreaks havoc on digestion. Added chicken fat to the diet.
> 
> Carmen


Respectfully, this is completely false and misleading. First, while dogs should be metabolizing fat for energy, many do not and its not because of what they eat. Fat is metabolized once a dog reaches an aerobic state (fat adaptation) and since many dogs are not in competition-like physical condition and only receive normal amounts of activity like running in the yard or playing at the dog park, they actually burn more carbs than fats. Protein should never be used as an energy source. It is extremely inefficient as a source of energy. Protein is best used for muscle repair and not energy. It has been shown in sled dogs studies by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs do just fine on a dry food with 32% protein.

LisaT's post is equally false and purposely misleading. She is referring to one study where rats were fed ONLY corn protein, which is low in tryptophan. Even the worst junk dog foods with corn have other sources of protein. The rest of LisaT's post is also false.

The moderators should remove both these posts.

Now back to the OP's question, the answer is kinda yes and kinda no. It depends on the type of activity and what physical condition the dog is in. Greyhounds do benefit from greater amounts of carbohydrates because they need easily converted sources of energy. So a dog that does a lot of short-burst activity will find carbohydrates a more ready source of energy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

excuse me, your second post here and I don't see 'your' credentials

You might want to go to the Introduction forum and introduce yourself it will make you more credible.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Corn is not good for our dogs so the main thing to look for in a food is the source of the carbs. Corn is traditionally the source in lower end dog foods. Feed a high quality grain free dog food and your dog will be fine When mine are on a tough deployment,hunt tests etc I give them a little canine red cell.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

ladylaw203 said:


> Corn is not good for our dogs so the main thing to look for in a food is the source of the carbs. Corn is traditionally the source in lower end dog foods. Feed a high quality grain free dog food and your dog will be fine When mine are on a tough deployment,hunt tests etc I give them a little canine red cell.


These people never stop. 

Please show me real science where "corn is not good for dogs". 

I want to see a peer reviewed scientific study showing this. Whole grain corn is just as good as any other form of carbohydrate like rice, barley or oats. In fact, in some cases it can be better.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> excuse me, your second post here and I don't see 'your' credentials
> 
> You might want to go to the Introduction forum and introduce yourself it will make you more credible.


No, take some time to research what the others said and you will find virtually everything stated as completely false.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

maybe so, but again, I don't see any of 'your' credentials to make such a statement.

What do "you" feed?


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

It is a known fact that corn is an allergen. This is nothing new. You show ME studies showing it is okey dokey. I have personal experience for 25 years feeding all breeds. I have seen for myself what happens when feeding corn. THEN I did research Also, with the recalls later due to cheap Chinese corn being used. no thanks. 

If a dog is doing well on what they are being fed, rock on. For those whose dogs have issues, they need to look further.

Exactly what do you feed? How many dogs and what breeds do you have?


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

ladylaw203 said:


> It is a known fact that corn is an allergen. This is nothing new. You show ME studies showing it is okey dokey. I have personal experience for 25 years feeding all breeds. I have seen for myself what happens when feeding corn. THEN I did research Also, with the recalls later due to cheap Chinese corn being used. no thanks.
> 
> What exactly is YOUR experience with feeding,training, etc etc dogs.
> Exactly what do you feed?


I respect what you do in service to the community. You are an angel for that but you are dead wrong about corn as an allergen. There are at least 7 peer reviewed studies that put corn between 1% - 3% of real food allergies, which is just slightly higher than rice. Also, most dogs with allergies react to multiple protein sets, so frankly the dog has a bad immune system.

If your dogs has a real allergy, 90% chance it is Chicken, Beef, Eggs, Dairy and isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat. 

Again, you are an angel but you are completely wrong. 

I do agree in one respect, I will only use human-grade non-gmo grains.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

those are not the studies I have read and not been my experience in the 25 years that I have been importing breeding and training,
Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system. We lose something in the linebreeding that we do. That being said. I have helped a ton of folks get their dogs off of cortisone shots by taking them off of a grain based cheap dog food. Right or wrong.,tons of GSDs have issues with it. I feed Orijen to all of my dogs,but I will say, that my labs and goldens were on junk from Wal Mart and looked fine when I bought them. so there ya go


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> There are at least 7 peer reviewed studies that put corn between 1% - 3% of real food allergies, which is just slightly higher than rice. Also, most dogs with allergies react to multiple protein sets, so frankly the dog has a bad immune system.
> 
> If your dogs has a real allergy, 90% chance it is Chicken, Beef, Eggs, Dairy and isolated wheat protein, not whole grain wheat.


Could you please cite your references so all can learn? 

Your posts sounds so familiar but I just can't quite place them. Have you posted here before?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Could you please cite your references so all can learn?
> 
> Your posts sounds so familiar but I just can't quite place them. Have you posted here before?


Hmmmm, I wonder...


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

ladylaw203 said:


> those are not the studies I have read and not been my experience in the 25 years that I have been importing breeding and training,
> Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system. We lose something in the linebreeding that we do. That being said. I have helped a ton of folks get their dogs off of cortisone shots by taking them off of a grain based cheap dog food. Right or wrong.,tons of GSDs have issues with it. I feed Orijen to all of my dogs,but I will say, that my labs and goldens were on junk from Wal Mart and looked fine when I bought them. so there ya go


It is impossible you read any real studies showing corn (or any grain for that matter) was a primary cause of allergic reactions. They simply do not exist.

http://www.raynenutrition.com/uploads/Food allergy in dogs & cats Review.pdf

This study in Belgium looked at a bunch of other peer reviewed studies and found that all the proteins in grains combined, excluding wheat gluten, totaled just 10%. Corn doesn't even have it own category.

From Dr. Susan Wynn:

"Fallacy 4: Grains cause allergies.
Fact: If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish. In cats, the most common allergens are beef, dairy, fish, lamb, poultry and barley/wheat (in equal numbers), egg and rabbit in equal numbers. I will admit that I’ve seen higher numbers of corn allergy than would be suggested by these numbers, as well, but please note that grains do not constitute the majority of allergy offenders."

Dr. Wynn is no lover cheap foods, I can tell you that:

"Susan Wynn, DVM
Dr. Wynn is a graduate of the University of Georgia’s College of Veterinary Medicine. She completed a clinical internship in Washington, D.C., and a fellowship in viral immunology at the Emory University School of Medicine. She is co-author of 4 books on holistic medicine, including Veterinary Herbal Medicine, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine: Science and Tradition, and Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice. After 20 years of clinical practice, she recently completed a nutrition residency with the University of Tennessee’s College of Veterinary Medicine. Dr. Wynn also writes, teaches and speaks on the subject of clinical nutrition and integrative medicine. She is also certified in acupuncture, chinese herbal medicine, and in western herbal medicine through the American Herbalist Guild.

Dr. Wynn has served as the executive director of the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association, president of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, and on the boards of the American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition, the American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture, and the Georgia Veterinary Medical Association. She is a native of Atlanta and after many years, is again living in Sandy Springs GA. She lives with 2 cats and a part-time dog. When spare time can be carved out of her schedule, she enjoys hiking, cooking, riding horses, travel and gardening."


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my last GSD didn't do well on high quality food.
on one of our Vet visits the Vet suggested
feeding him a lesser quality food. i started feeding
him Alpo or some other not so good stuff and he
was fine.



ladylaw203 said:


> Now, I will say one thing. there are tons of pet mixed breed dogs out there doing well on grocery store food. Personally, I think the mutts have a stronger system.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> they actually burn more carbs than fats.


So if a dog is NEVER fed any carbs how would that affect their energy level?



Trainer-Breeder said:


> It has been shown in sled dogs studies by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs do just fine on a dry food with 32% protein.


I don't want my dogs to do "just fine". Stray dogs on the street that live off garbage do "just fine".

I want my dogs to be in the best possible physical condition that I have the ability to get them to.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow how can someone join a forum and within their first few posts completely offend people that are well respected and have been extremely helpful to others and tell moderators to remove their posts because they didn't agree with what they said..

Also have to agree on the posts sounding familiar. Highly argumentative and defending corn with their dieing breath... definitely sounds like someone who used to post.

Goes without saying but completely agree with everyone else so far on using more fats and proteins NOT carbs for energy. Plenty of working dogs that do actual work (not just running around the yard) that are completely grain free as in never having rice, oats CORN, or any other grain.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> So if a dog is NEVER fed any carbs how would that affect their energy level?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand the point. If sled dogs at the height of training in very cold and nasty conditions remain in peak condition on a food with 32% protein why do you believe more is better? More protein for the average dog is waste at best and damaging at worst. "Just Fine" was just an expression.

What is the upside to using more than that level? More is not always better. I would be surprised if any large breed adult needs more than 25% protein.

A dog that receives no carbohydrate will not have as much endurance and will lose weight. In the long run the dog's health will suffer. There is a bunch of unpublished research that performance dogs on low carb, grain-free diets have much less endurance than dogs eating more traditional diets. I have actually seen young dogs collapse from hypoglycemia.

"The latest research in Europe shows us that true performance dogs have no stamina on grain free formulas, they tend to run hot, fast, then plummet. What works best for these performance dogs is a meat based diet from multiple protein sources (from meats), high fat and then as a low carbohydrate source - ideally a blend of oats/brown rice OR oats/corn (high quality/low gluten corn) in order to sustain high energy performance levels. It has been shown that with a quality intact ground grain, low carb component, that the animal is better able to balance the insulin and glucose levels, especially when the dog is working. There has been NO real research done by any company on grain free foods at this point."


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

To paraphrase the demon in Acts: Carmspack we know and LisaT we have heard of. But who are you that we should listen and obey you?


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Wow how can someone join a forum and within their first few posts completely offend people that are well respected and have been extremely helpful to others and tell moderators to remove their posts because they didn't agree with what they said..
> 
> Also have to agree on the posts sounding familiar. Highly argumentative and defending corn with their dieing breath... definitely sounds like someone who used to post.
> 
> Goes without saying but completely agree with everyone else so far on using more fats and proteins NOT carbs for energy. Plenty of working dogs that do actual work (not just running around the yard) that are completely grain free as in never having rice, oats CORN, or any other grain.


I don't think I am being offensive, but if being right is offensive, then I accept that moniker proudly. So far all I have done is point out very clearly with actual facts that many of the so-called "experts" don't know what they are talking about.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

welcome back to the boards Sable I'll check out of the thread before getting myself banned as I actually like this forum for the most part.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> Protein should never be used as an energy source. It is extremely inefficient as a source of energy. Protein is best used for muscle repair and not energy.


Where do wolves get the energy needed for a 5-mile chase after an elk or caribou? They aren't getting any corn.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lol... we missed you sable.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Interesting. I know a former sled dog lady and she gives her dogs lots of carbs because they are so high energy and have a high metabolism. I give my husk some extra carbs, usually in the form of bread. I dont go overboard because 1) I dont want her to be fat 2) she doesn't get as much exercise as she should and 3) Im not sure it actually helps.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Where do wolves get the energy needed for a 5-mile chase after an elk or caribou? They aren't getting any corn.


Has nothing to do with corn at all, it is an issue of carbohydrate vs fat. Pick another how about oats? Dogs that are not well conditioned or are involved in normal pet-like activities will use carbohydrates more efficiently than fat. Fat requires aerobic oxidation to be used and many dogs just don't have these pathways.

It is a question of conditioning and the pace of activity. In some cases breed as well.

Read specifically what I wrote and don't muck it up with an argument about corn. For some dogs and some breeds carbs (vs fat) are beneficial.

Ummm and one other thing, wolves are not the hunter you think they are..there are no 5 mile runs. Wolves look first for the sick, injured and the young.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> Fat requires *aerobic oxidation* to be used and *many dogs just don't have these pathways*.


If you've found dogs that are strictly anaerobic organisms, you should probably present your findings to the scientific community at large.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> Has nothing to do with corn at all, it is an issue of carbohydrate vs fat. Pick another how about oats? Dogs that are not well conditioned or are involved in normal pet-like activities will use carbohydrates more efficiently than fat. Fat requires aerobic oxidation to be used and many dogs just don't have these pathways.
> 
> It is a question of conditioning and the pace of activity. In some cases breed as well.
> 
> ...


Since you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again... where do wolves get their energy from? They aren't getting any carbs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> Ummm and one other thing, wolves are not the hunter you think they are..there are no 5 mile runs. Wolves look first for the sick, injured and the young.


You're a funny guy sable. Much more credible with this new name though.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

This is funny...picking a fake username to lend credibility where there is none 

Or maybe we are all wrong - maybe Trainer-Breeder is an expert. As soon as s/he let's us know the name of their training business and their kennel, so we can look at some of the pdegrees, etc., maybe we will all have to listen 

I did specifically mention corn because that is what is used for energy in a lot of dog foods. Starlink corn, known for creating allergies, was okayed for use in "feed", and like the othe GMO corn, does bad things to the digestive system. Once in awhile my dog and I do have corn, organic white corn, but that's not used as an energy source. Corn is also very high in omega 6 fatty acids, and fed in quantity, will throw the body into an unhealthy balance. 

As for the other carbs, one reason some dogs do okay on them is because dogs are very adaptable with what they can eat (say, as compared to cats). However, most people with extensive experience with dogs (probably moreso with certain breeds), and most people that spend any time on the health forums, see how so many dogs do so much better when grains and starches are removed from the diet - from IBD to seizure to allergy dogs. 

This is an old debate, I don't even debate it anymore.

I got a PM from TB about how I am always wrong - wondering if this is sable or Mal16. A few places sound too stable, so I'm not sure.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Mal16... i almost forgot about her. This is 110% sable123456.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oops, my bad, PM wasn't from TB, it was from a newly registered, O-poster named "Bewildered". So I'm thinking the two might be friends or the same person.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Maybe they've morphed into one hypochondriac, food-obsessed, mega poster and it's both of them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I got a PM from TB about how I am always wrong - wondering if this is sable or Mal16. A few places sound too stable, so I'm not sure.


Mal16 was incredibly annoying, but wasn't a knowitall.

Was sable banned? If so, his new username should be as well. Not much positive or constructive information in his posts, just a lot of "you're stupid and wrong and don't know anything." Even if he was credible source of information, his way of attacking everyone when putting forth his opinions is rather rude, to the point where some might disbelieve him just on principle.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

yes sable was banned and the new name should be as well don't think mods can find the IP but maybe admins can. Of course they very well might have changed their IP anyways.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 was banned temporarily a couple of months ago. He is not currently banned or it would show that under his name and I didn't see it when I looked at one of his posts.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Since you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again... where do wolves get their energy from? They aren't getting any carbs.


They do get carbs, but to answer specifically, a wolf is a highly conditioned animal that can use fat as an efficient source of energy.Fat is utilized in a much different fashion than carbohydrates.

Are you trying to tell me the average GSD, or any other breed you find domesticated, is at that level of condition? You are nuts if you believe that. 

I thought I had answered the question already.

Even Orijen has 22 - 25% of calories from carbohydrates depending on the formula, and that does't count the fiber component.

Carbohydrates are an essential part of a domesticated dog's diet, even those in top physical condition, otherwise the replenishment of muscle glycogen would be extremely slow.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> sable123 was banned temporarily a couple of months ago. He is not currently banned or it would show that under his name and I didn't see it when I looked at one of his posts.


He's still banned under sable, but I say lift the ban!! I can't get used to this breeders and trainers nonsense.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/171224-value-picks-week.html


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> Even Orijen has 22 - 25% of calories from carbohydrates depending on the formula, and that does't count the fiber component.


Would you recommend feeding orijen? I hear all of their ingredients are fresh and regional.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ooops!! I see it now! I wondered where he was. hmmm...well...more important things to do now.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Emoore said:


> If you've found dogs that are strictly anaerobic organisms, you should probably present your findings to the scientific community at large.


You don't understand how different sources of energy are used. Fat is not used first, and in some dogs not at all.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Would you recommend feeding orijen? I hear all of their ingredients are fresh and regional.


oke:

Tried staying away.. thanks Paul lol.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You're just winning friends and influencing people all over the place aren't you? Saying I don't understand energy pathways is like saying a mechanic doesn't understand cars. It's what I do. What I understand is that you clearly stated that many dogs don't posess aerobic pathways.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> They do get carbs, but to answer specifically, a wolf is a highly conditioned animal that can use fat as an efficient source of energy.Fat is utilized in a much different fashion than carbohydrates.


So where do they get their carbs?



> Are you trying to tell me the average GSD, or any other breed you find domesticated, is at that level of condition? You are nuts if you believe that.
> 
> I thought I had answered the question already.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah blah I said NOTHING about GSD or other domestic dogs, Orijen, or anything. I asked one simple question, and it still hasn't been answered fully.


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## Trainer-Breeder (Jan 8, 2012)

Freestep said:


> So where do they get their carbs?
> 
> 
> 
> Blah blah blah blah I said NOTHING about GSD or other domestic dogs, Orijen, or anything. I asked one simple question, and it still hasn't been answered fully.


It has twice.

The answer is beyond your expertise.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> It has twice.
> 
> The answer is beyond your expertise.


What's that? The answer is beyond your expertise?  

You said wolves do get carbs, so you answered part of my question. But WHERE do wolves get those carbs?


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

What about dogs who are fed a prey model raw diet? This diet contains no veggies, so it has zero carbs. I have yet to hear of that causing problems for them.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> A dog that receives no carbohydrate will not have as much endurance and will lose weight. In the long run the dog's health will suffer.


Well, I guess no-one told that to my 13 yr old Cocker Spaniel, Tazer who has been carb-free for 11 years:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> It has twice.
> 
> The answer is beyond your expertise.


Yes...this is Sable123...definitely....so when are the mods going to check the IP's?


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

CookieTN said:


> What about dogs who are fed a prey model raw diet? This diet contains no veggies, so it has zero carbs. I have yet to hear of that causing problems for them.


Let me rephrase that last sentence--most of the time when people have problems with the raw diet, from what I've seen, it's from not doing enough research. Meaning that they really don't know what they're doing, and end up feeding an imbalanced diet. Or not using common sense. (Like feeding rotting meat, not supervising when feeding an RMB, etc.)
I have heard once or twice of a dog that didn't do well on raw (they didn't go into details, or I just don't remember them), but usually when I hear back from people who switched to it they relate success.

I've been feeding raw for four years and my dog doesn't appear to be suffering from any deficiency.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

gone poof


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> gone poof


NOOOOO!!!! I was just starting to feel enlightened!! :teary::teary::teary:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

"The answer is beyond your expertise."

I am so going to use that line on my husband at the next possible opportunity.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Lucy Dog said:


> Would you recommend feeding orijen? I hear all of their ingredients are fresh and regional.


 
I have fed Orijen for some time. On most of my dogs,I had to cut their ration in half because they were putting on weight. They use all of it. 
Acana is also good. Same folks


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm going to use that line on my dog. 



Good_Karma said:


> "The answer is beyond your expertise."
> 
> I am so going to use that line on my husband at the next possible opportunity.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

ladylaw203 said:


> I have fed Orijen for some time. On most of my dogs,I had to cut their ration in half because they were putting on weight. They use all of it.
> Acana is also good. Same folks


It was a joke. It's actually what I've been feeding the last couple years.

Just trying to be an instigator. Sable123/breeders and trainers hates orijen. He's been going on about how much he hates the stuff for years.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i can hear Tazer at the meeting saying
"hi, i'm Tazer. i've been carb-free for 11 years".



Lauri & The Gang said:


> Well, I guess no-one told that to my 13 yr old Cocker Spaniel, Tazer who has been carb-free for 11 years:
> 
> Tazer Lure Couring - YouTube


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> gone poof


:hug: :happyboogie: :thumbup:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh boy , I'll have to follow this in the morning - good grief .


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

yikes. Beyond expertise. What a way to call people stupid. Or did I read that wrong? some people. sheesh.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Wow, how does one hate Orijen......hahaha. I hate the price.......


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> gone poof


Oh no - I just got here... Actually while this person may well be sable, the style reminds me somewhat of the guy in NZ who started a fracas saying that "homeopathy doesn't work." He was also "shy" when it came to parting with any personal information........and cited voluminous amounts of literature to prove his point. Perhaps he and sable are working as a team now........one's a wannabe trainer, ones a wannabe breeder....
_____________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

xenabella said:


> Has anyone else heard that you should feed higher energy dogs more carbs? To release more seratonin in their brains, thus making them more calm. I would have thought higher protien would have been better?


Let's get back to the topic. 

What are the carbs in our dogs' foods:
Are grains?
Potatoes?

What are the things that this theory might be related to?

What are the things that carbs do? That proteins do?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Let's get back to the topic.
> 
> What are the carbs in our dogs' foods:
> Are grains?
> ...


Carb sources in dog food are any grains or starchy root vegetable: rice, wheat, corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, barley, etc. 

I think the answer to the OP's question lies in how the carbohydrates are processed in the kibble. As an example, think of which would be the best meal for a kid before school: waffles or oatmeal? One is highly processed and will tend to cause problems concentrating; the other is a slow-burning fuel that will give him all day energy to study and pay attention. Another example would be potato chips vs. potatoes.

Does anyone know how different carb sources are processed in kibble?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Trainer-Breeder said:


> You don't understand how different sources of energy are used. Fat is not used first, and in some dogs not at all.


 and the reason for this would be their body is under a constant flood of carbs. limit the carbs, specifically grains, and the pathways for energy production change. Surely someone with your knowledge already knows this


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Dogs do not have Amylase in their digestive system. Amylase is a digestive enzyme that us humans, and other animals have to digest starches into sugar.

So that being said, knowing dogs cannot digest corn.... Tell me again what "benefit" if any come from feeding a dog corn if we know right now its going to come out the other end because their body cannot do anything with it. Just like the shell (cellulose) of corn comes out in our stool much the same way it went in because WE HUMANS cannot digest THAT portion of corn. 

Now take in part that Corn is a very common allergen. How do I know? I give consults to people at my work, working one on one with allergy dogs. I work with their vets who have discovered an allergy is present in the dog food. then I work with the people on Limited Ingredient Diets to pinpoint the cause of an allergy and about 85% of the time I find its corn. 



The Truth About Corn in Dog Food


> Myth #2
> Corn Does Not Cause Allergies
> Cheerleaders for corn-based products like to point out that corn is one of the least allergenic ingredients in dog food.
> And according to some studies, that is probably true. One report found the incidence of corn allergy to be only 14%.3 And another places corn at just 3% of all allergies.4
> ...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is this answering the OP's question - I believe she asked about carbs? There are other carbs other than corn? Or did I miss something in a follow up from the OP?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I had serious questions about grains myself as well, so I went to our college library and started researching. 

I read:
_Digestibility and metabolizable energy of some carbohydrate sources for dogs._ Fortes, C.M.L.S.; Carciofi, A.C.; Sakomura, N.K.; Kawauchi, I.M.; Vasconcellos, R.S.. Animal Feed Science & Technology, Mar2010, Vol. 156 Issue 3/4, p121-125, 5p; DOI: 10.1016/j.anifeedsci.2010.01.009

_Effects of six carbohydrate sources on dog diet digestibility and post-prandial glucose and insulin response._ Carciofi, A. C.; Takakura, F. S.; De-Oliveira, L. D.; Teshima, E.; Jeremias, J. T.; Brunetto, M. A.; Prada, F.. Journal of Animal Physiology & Animal Nutrition, Jun2008, Vol. 92 Issue 3, p326-336, 11p, 4 Charts, 1 Graph; DOI: 10.1111/j.1439-0396.2007.00794.x

_The replacement value of sorghum and maize with or without supplemental enzymes for rice in extruded dog foods._ Twomey, L.N.; Pluske, J.R.; Rowe, J.B.; Choct, M.; Brown, W.; Pethick, D.W.. Animal Feed Science & Technology, Aug2003, Vol. 108 Issue 1-4, p61, 9p; DOI: 10.1016/S0377-8401(03)00168-8

and

_The Use of Sorghum and Corn as Alternatives to Rice in Dog Foods_.Twomey, Leanne N.; Pethick, David W.; Rowe, James B.; Choct, Mingan; Pluske, John R.; Brown, Wendy; Laviste, Maria C.. Journal of Nutrition, Jun2002 Supplement 2, Vol. 132 Issue 6, p1704S, 2p, 1 Chart, 1 Graph


Basically the long and short of these studies was that _in dogs that are not allergic,_ corn is just as good as rice as a carbohydrate sources, and in some cases was more bioavilable than rice. Obviously, corn and corn gluten meal are rotten protein sources, which is what they are used for in low-quality food. And of course low-quality foods use low-quality grains. However, as a carbohydrate source in a quality food, I can't find evidence that corn is inferior to rice in dogs that are not allergic.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I can't edit my post, I forgot to quote the post I was responding to. This is the post




Trainer-Breeder said:


> Respectfully, this is completely false and misleading. First, while dogs should be metabolizing fat for energy, many do not and its not because of what they eat. Fat is metabolized once a dog reaches an aerobic state (fat adaptation) and since many dogs are not in competition-like physical condition and only receive normal amounts of activity like running in the yard or playing at the dog park, they actually burn more carbs than fats. Protein should never be used as an energy source. It is extremely inefficient as a source of energy. Protein is best used for muscle repair and not energy. It has been shown in sled dogs studies by Kronfeld that even highly stressed sled dogs do just fine on a dry food with 32% protein.
> 
> LisaT's post is equally false and purposely misleading. She is referring to one study where rats were fed ONLY corn protein, which is low in tryptophan. Even the worst junk dog foods with corn have other sources of protein. The rest of LisaT's post is also false.
> 
> ...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

xenabella said:


> Has anyone else heard that you should feed higher energy dogs more carbs? To release more seratonin in their brains, thus making them more calm. I would have thought higher protien would have been better?


And again, this is the OP - not sure she's been back, so let's try to answer her question. 

Carbs. 

Same first letter, but she did not specifically say corn, we've got it now right?

You know what. I am going to bet we don't. So I am going to lock this thread and start her thread over. If anyone posted anything pertinent to the OP's post, please do me the kindness of reposting it over there.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My answer to that was here Jean:




Emoore said:


> Carb sources in dog food are any grains or starchy root vegetable: rice, wheat, corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, barley, etc.
> 
> I think the answer to the OP's question lies in how the carbohydrates are processed in the kibble. As an example, think of which would be the best meal for a kid before school: waffles or oatmeal? One is highly processed and will tend to cause problems concentrating; the other is a slow-burning fuel that will give him all day energy to study and pay attention. Another example would be potato chips vs. potatoes.
> 
> Does anyone know how different carb sources are processed in kibble?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks EMoore. 

New thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-higher-energy-dogs-take-ii.html#post2359015

You will stay on topic in that thread, You will stay on topic in that thread, You will stay on topic in that thread....


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