# Thoughts from an oversized German Shepherd breeder



## GennieF

I am an oversized German Shepherd breeder. Cringe now, if you must. It seems some of you are so quick to assume things based on size. Because someone had posted a video of my dog Ash, there were many on this board who said various things about a video in which he was walking on crusty snow that basically amounted to clearly he had all sorts of health problems, I in turn replied that he has been tested through the OFA regarding hips, a degenerative myelopathy clear non-carrier, in addition to TLI testing within normal range at 25.1 and posted a pic to him because I'm DARN PROUD of how good I think he looks at almost 6 years of age  



















He is also considered oversized at 30" at the shoulder and ranges anywhere from 125-135 pounds depending on the season, completely healthy with no problems, our vets are completely fine with his weight because he is in proportion. Never have we pushed our dogs to be a certain weight nor told ANY of our puppy owners to do that, actually quite the opposite. Some of the remarks seemed so shocked and horrified that something outside the standard of the breed even existed, like he was some vile creature from the black lagoon which had surfaced to eat the neighborhood children. I don't get that. I made a few other points in that thread, of which I would like to re-paste here because I do not know if it will even be seen by many on that thread and because I have seen oversized dogs discussed numerous times on this board before anyway, I may as well restate it so people can see what an oversized German Shepherd breeder's opinion is since the other thread will probably be buried soon enough and it couldn't hurt to at least show the flip side on what seems to be a hot topic.

Obviously coming onto a forum like this, just like with most of the other GSD forums, most will not like larger GSD, so of course it's like how much effort should I put in to fight a gang up of 20 to 1. However, I will say this, why is it that almost 20% of the GSD tested through the OFA test with some form of dysplasia? Obviously it's not just due to size, because most shepherds are well within the normal standard size. Hip dysplasia will be aggravated by excess weight, true. People that don't care about their dogs and just breed the biggest to the biggest without any regards to health (and most likely do not bother to do any type of testing anyway) will probably produce dysplastic dogs. That is not us, and while I am sure there are "breeders" out there (most likely through the classified ads) that do this, I know there are many of the larger GSD breeders that do health testing as well. Can I attest to what they do? Nope, I can only say what we do. From a business standpoint, since someone mentioned this was an "ad critique", frankly it would be stupid for me to breed a dog that either has problems or produces problems. Why? Because for my contract, I do not offer a puppy as a replacement. I give $ back if the dog has an issue, and since we're only hobby breeders who don't produce many puppies anyway, why would I want to produce dogs where I know I'll end up having to give back $$? Unfortunately, there are people out there that like to circulate that big = hip dysplasia. If that is the case, then anyone that buys a small GSD is all set because if big = hip dysplasia, wouldn't small = no dysplasia? Of course not. It's about the health of your lines, knowing your dogs and what they produce, knowing what their relatives have produced. Hip dysplasia is still going to happen, regardless, but you try to do the best you can to limit it. 

Some of these comments made about Ash are made because of the notion that big GSD automatically have dysplasia, that "clearly their frames cannot support their weight" or "just because they're bred larger than they were meant to be", hence the problems. Hogwash. Why is it then that on OFA's website, some of the breeds that have less of a percentage for dysplasia versus the GSD include giant breeds (including the LARGEST breeds of all) such as the Irish Wolfhound, the Great Pyrenees, the Anatolian Shepherd, the Great Dane, the Leonberger, the Tibetan Mastiff, and the Kuvasz. What I find interesting is that the Belgian Sheepdog, Tervuren , Malinois, and Dutch Shepherd, all VERY comparable breeds, have much better % than the GSD at 2.9% / 3.5 % / 5.4 / 7.1 % dysplasic of dogs tested. Obviously the GSD has been a top 10 breed for a long time, and this is where one of the issues lie. People just wanting to crank out puppies. It's not due to size, but breeding practices. In the end though, assuming a dog automatically has dysplasia or reading into the dog "walking funny" JUST due to knowing the size is absolutely ridiculous. I'm sure that most on here will disagree with any or everything I have to say, but that's the way it is. Call my dogs ugly, TOO BIG, "shameful to the breed founder and a disgrace to Von Stephanitz", I can live with that. Don't call into question health issues that aren't there or try to say our dogs are mistreated due to someone seeing something that isn't there. I understand a lot of you don't like larger dogs, but don't let that be a motivation to make off-the-wall claims. Oh well, I've said my peace, don't know if there would be a point in responding to anything else but "Que Sera, Sera".

Final note - I watched my video again and I think part of what people may think is Ash "in pain" is actually him walking on crusty snow. The snow had glazed over the top because it had snowed a day or two prior, and you know what happens when the sun starts melting the top of the snow and then it freezes overnight...crusty snow. I don't like walking in crusty snow with my two legs cause you don't know if you'll actually sink in or not, and never thought people would perceive issues and read into a video so much but such is the internet. 

Not all large German Shepherd breeders are bad, we may breed outside of the standard but we strive for our dogs to be just as healthy ans well-tempered as anyone else's. Even if they may not be the ideal shepherd for those here, they are ideal in the eyes of the companion owners we breed for. The stereotype of "If it's a giant, then we get clients!" type attitude doesn't exist with us, and hopefully at least someone's eyes may be opened with this or at least not absolutely loathe the next large GSD they see. If not, I tried, I can't invest hours and days on the internet trying to justify what we do to people who will not see eye to eye with us regardless. Breeds change and evolve over time, and of course there will always be variations within them, the German Shepherd Dog is no different. At least someone may see that at least some of the statements made on this board may not be completely accurate.


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## Emoore

Of course they don't automatically have hip problems, knee problems, or anything else.

I just don't understand why someone would choose a breed of dog to reproduce and sell, and then produce dogs that are diametrically opposed in size and in temperament to what the breed standard calls for. 

If you like big, hairy, calm dogs with friendly temperaments, why not breed a dog that is designed that way? Why breed a dog that is designed and intended to be medium-sized, aloof, and drivey? You just like the pricked ears so darn much?

I'm sure Ash is a wonderful dog and you love him very much. I'm sure your buyers love their puppies very much. But why breed "German Shepherds" at all? It's like breeding calm border collies who are afraid of sheep.


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## GennieF

Emoore said:


> Of course they don't automatically have hip problems, knee problems, or anything else.
> 
> I just don't understand why someone would choose a breed of dog to reproduce and sell, and then produce dogs that are diametrically opposed in size and in temperament to what the breed standard calls for.
> 
> If you like big, hairy, calm dogs with friendly temperaments, why not breed a dog that is designed that way? Why breed a dog that is designed and intended to be medium-sized, aloof, and drivey? You just like the pricked ears so darn much?
> 
> I'm sure Ash is a wonderful dog and you love him very much. I'm sure your buyers love their puppies very much. But why breed "German Shepherds" at all? It's like breeding calm border collies who are afraid of sheep.


Because I CAN? Because breeds change and evolve over time? Show me one breed that hasn't changed over the course of the 150 year time span. Please. I'm sorry but to say that people shouldn't want ideal family companions because the German Shepherd should remain a working breed is quite an airy statement. Working dogs have their place, as do pets. I'm not looking to produce anything other than what I state. It's much better that I produce pets for someone that DOES want a calm German Shepherd than them going out to a backyard breeder (though I guess most on here would consider me that) where the dogs are pieces of garbage, untested with no knowledge or thought behind them, getting the dog and then dropping the dog off at the shelter in 6 months time because they didn't understand what they were getting into.


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## Wolfiesmom

I have run into quite a few people around here with oversized GSD's. There's a breeder not to far from me that breeds them. My cousin has one named Bear. He looks like a big bear. Unfortunately, a lot of the people that buy these dogs are looking for a German Shepherd, with all the drive and everything that the GSD is supposed to be. A lot of them get a big GSD to look and act scary. The ones that I know, and that know me and my 85 lb GSD, are amazed at the intensity of my dog. They say," That's what I wanted my dog to be like."


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## Scleropages

Like Emoore stated, your dog is pretty far off from the standard. It seems like you are breeding something similar to the Shiloh Shepherd. There comes a point at which you breed far enough out of the standard that you aren't producing the same breed of dog anymore. If your Shepherds look and act considerably different from the standard (there is, of course, a grey area), then you aren't really producing Shepherds anymore.

That said, it is good to know that you are paying attention to the health of your dogs and not just the size and as long as you produce happy healthy dogs that find homes, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.


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## Emoore

Scleropages said:


> That said, it is good to know that you are paying attention to the health of your dogs and not just the size and as long as you produce happy healthy dogs that find homes, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.


There's nothing wrong with producing large, calm, non-drive-having, laid-back family pets that are happy and healthy, just don't blow smoke by calling them German Shepherd Dogs.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I know this isn't the popular opinion on here, but I really like the large shepherds. I understand why people don't, they feel they can't do the things the dog was bred to do, and that's fine. However, I feel if she is producing healthy (health tested and all of that) and is very up front that these dogs are NOT working dogs, but only family pets...I don't really see the harm. I think they are gorgeous dogs that may be more suited for what most people today want out of a dog. Lets face it, most people cannot handle a truly drivey GSD. Like I said, I know it's not the popular opinion, and I understand why that is...and on some levels agree, but I can definitely see the purpose and beauty in these dogs.


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## jaggirl47

Here are my thoughts as a non breeder.

Big does not equal hip displaysia. However, the more weight on the joints, that includes oversized or fat, are known to be an environmental factor that greatly increases the risk. How many in your dog's line, both breeding and non breeding, have been diagnosed with HD or ED? It's not just your dog's individual genes being passed on. It is several generations.

As far as breeding far outside of the standard to produce "pet puppies", the GSD has a standard for a reason. The GSD is a herding breed, but also an all purpose breed. The GSD should be able to go out and work, PLUS be a member of the family (pet). When you do away with the true temperment and abilities of the breed, then you are assisting in destroying the breed.

I commend you for doing health testing on your dog. I truly do. However, what about his lines? Also, just because his cTLI level is normal does not mean he does not carry the genes for EPI. The cTLI is only test to see if the dog itself has pancreatic insufficiency. Are you aware that it commonly skips generations? Have any dogs in his line been diagnosed with EPI? Last email correspondence I had with the doctors testing the genetic portions of EPI is that most likely 2 dogs need to pass it on. However, they are not certain because the actual genetic markers have not been found.


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## GennieF

Scleropages said:


> Like Emoore stated, your dog is pretty far off from the standard. It seems like you are breeding something similar to the Shiloh Shepherd. There comes a point at which you breed far enough out of the standard that you aren't producing the same breed of dog anymore. If your Shepherds look and act considerably different from the standard (there is, of course, a grey area), then you aren't really producing Shepherds anymore.
> 
> That said, it is good to know that you are paying attention to the health of your dogs and not just the size and as long as you produce happy healthy dogs that find homes, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.


Any of the dogs that aren't 100% show quality or even working quality that are produced by breeders, do you then say "Because they do not fit the standard, I'm sorry but they can no longer be called German Shepherd Dogs", because that is what you are essentially stating. If that is the case, I guess every various "type" should be made a separate breed. To the untrained eye, one would think they were two completely different breeds that just perhaps just vaguely resemble each other, yet on paper they are the same and surely their owners would fight tooth and nail to claim them both be the same breed.

My dogs are a variation, and as terrible as some people think it is, they are 100% purebred German Shepherds and surely are related to at least some dogs on here. I can respect your opinion but do not agree. Btw, Shilohs stemmed from large GSDs, they are related to my dogs but unlike the Shilohs (whole 'nother can of worms) I can diversify my dogs bloodlines with dogs that are similar from various lines but completely unrelated. Not everyone wants a look of the show dog, per the standard, they want a dog which may have been how their old dog looked. Their old dog was probably no prize winner either (at least in the eyes of the AKC or the SV), but obviously we fill a niche and at the same time are not stepping on toes of the working or show people, or at least I can't see how we would.


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## jaggirl47

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I know this isn't the popular opinion on here, but I really like the large shepherds. I understand why people don't, they feel they can't do the things the dog was bred to do, and that's fine. However, I feel if she is producing healthy (health tested and all of that) and is very up front that these dogs are NOT working dogs, but only family pets...I don't really see the harm. I think they are gorgeous dogs that may be more suited for what most people today want out of a dog. Lets face it, most people cannot handle a truly drivey GSD. Like I said, I know it's not the popular opinion, and I understand why that is...and on some levels agree, but I can definitely see the purpose and beauty in these dogs.


 
A GSD is a working dog. Anything else is just a dog, but not a GSD.


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## LaRen616

Emoore said:


> There's nothing wrong with producing large, calm, non-drive-having, laid-back family pets that are happy and healthy, just don't blow smoke by calling them German Shepherd Dogs.


:thumbup:


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## GennieF

Emoore said:


> There's nothing wrong with producing large, calm, non-drive-having, laid-back family pets that are happy and healthy, just don't blow smoke by calling them German Shepherd Dogs.


Again, see above. There seems to be various descriptions of the German Shepherd Dogs. The average person does not want the description of what you are saying is the true GSD, they want a GSD as they know it. Again, then you don't like the label of the dogs being "big", "oversized", "calm" or anything indicating any difference. Too bad, don't try and blow smoke and say that all the dogs owned by people over the decades weren't something other than what they were or what they remember. Most people had pets, that's what they remember, that's who I appeal to.


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## jaggirl47

GennieF said:


> Any of the dogs that aren't 100% show quality or even working quality that are produced by breeders, do you then say "Because they do not fit the standard, I'm sorry but they can no longer be called German Shepherd Dogs", because that is what you are essentially stating. If that is the case, I guess every various "type" should be made a separate breed. To the untrained eye, one would think they were two completely different breeds that just perhaps just vaguely resemble each other, yet on paper they are the same and surely their owners would fight tooth and nail to claim them both be the same breed.
> 
> My dogs are a variation, and as terrible as some people think it is, they are 100% purebred German Shepherds and surely are related to at least some dogs on here. I can respect your opinion but do not agree. Btw, Shilohs stemmed from large GSDs, they are related to my dogs but unlike the Shilohs (whole 'nother can of worms) I can diversify my dogs bloodlines with dogs that are similar from various lines but completely unrelated. Not everyone wants a look of the show dog, per the standard, they want a dog which may have been how their old dog looked. Their old dog was probably no prize winner either (at least in the eyes of the AKC or the SV), but obviously we fill a niche and at the same time are not stepping on toes of the working or show people, or at least I can't see how we would.


 
GSD's can easily end up oversized, even in those breeders that work hard to keep them within the standard. However, it is not just the size but the overall temperment and working ability that make it a GSD.


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## Emoore

I don't give a monkey's patootie what the average person wants, if what they want isn't a GSD they shouldn't buy a GSD-lite. 

The GSD was never supposed to be a dog for the dumbed-down masses. I think it's a crying shame that it's the 3rd most popular dog in America because now it's the 3rd post populous dog in shelters.


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## GennieF

jaggirl47 said:


> GSD's can easily end up oversized, even in those breeders that work hard to keep them within the standard. However, it is not just the size but the overall temperment and working ability that make it a GSD.


Again, see above. So you're saying the ones that are perhaps a bit more laidback in the litter are then not advertised as German Shepherds? Only those that display the epitomy of the breed, correct? So how does one advertise a whole litter of GSD pups when only those that are the "epitomy" are then classified as such. Do you tell people "Well, I have one or two German Shepherd Dog pups...these other two here are too soft, so we'll call them softie shepherds, this other one here looks like he's going to be oversized so we'll call him a "biggie shepherd", and finally we ended up having this one appear that looks to be a brown color (oops), so we'll call him a "lily livered shepherd".


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## Scleropages

GennieF said:


> *Any of the dogs that aren't 100% show quality or even working quality that are produced by breeders, do you then say "Because they do not fit the standard, I'm sorry but they can no longer be called German Shepherd Dogs", because that is what you are essentially stating.* If that is the case, I guess every various "type" should be made a separate breed. To the untrained eye, one would think they were two completely different breeds that just perhaps just vaguely resemble each other, yet on paper they are the same and surely their owners would fight tooth and nail to claim them both be the same breed.
> 
> My dogs are a variation, and as terrible as some people think it is, they are 100% purebred German Shepherds and surely are related to at least some dogs on here. I can respect your opinion but do not agree. Btw, Shilohs stemmed from large GSDs, they are related to my dogs but unlike the Shilohs (whole 'nother can of worms) I can diversify my dogs bloodlines with dogs that are similar from various lines but completely unrelated. Not everyone wants a look of the show dog, per the standard, they want a dog which may have been how their old dog looked. Their old dog was probably no prize winner either (at least in the eyes of the AKC or the SV), but obviously we fill a niche and at the same time are not stepping on toes of the working or show people, or at least I can't see how we would.


"If your Shepherds look and act *considerably different* from the standard (*there is, of course, a grey area*), then you aren't really producing Shepherds anymore." is what I'm stating. If I were to breed GSD's towards a dog that was totally white with floppy ears, short legs, and hyper aggressive temperament, I believe it would be safe to say I wasn't producing GSD's anymore. The only distinct line for determining whether something fits within the breed is the standard, but most people would agree that a 26" tall or shy dog would still be considered a GSD, so there is a grey area...


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## GennieF

Emoore said:


> I don't give a monkey's patootie what the average person wants, if what they want isn't a GSD they shouldn't buy a GSD-lite.
> 
> The GSD was never supposed to be a dog for the dumbed-down masses. I think it's a crying shame that it's the 3rd most popular dog in America because now it's the 3rd post populous dog in shelters.


Then maybe you need to look into breeders that are mass producing dogs and giving the GSD a bad name and producing bad quality to boot. You may not give a monkey's patootie about people who want pets but them's the facts, whether you like it or not.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

jaggirl47 said:


> GSD's can easily end up oversized, even in those breeders that work hard to keep them within the standard. However, it is not just the size but the overall temperment and working ability that make it a GSD.


So if these oversized GSD's had drive and could do some sort of work you wouldn't have such a problem with it? I can kind of see that. I would think that maybe an oversized GSD, while not able to do everything a regular GSD can do, could maybe do SAR? I don't know. I like how they look, but then again I like how my regular GSD acts (She's certainly not the most drivey dog out there, but she's got her fair share)...


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## fuzzybunny

I think Ash is beautiful and don't see a thing wrong from that video. I have a Shiloh Shepherd because I like big breeds and I like the GSD. It seemed like a good combo. I love Jazz but he doesn't have the same drive as a GSD. I've already decided that when I get another dog in the future it will be a GSD because I like their drive. If I have the option of getting a larger than standard GSD I will. It's just a personal preference. I think Ash is one handsome boy!


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## wildo

GennieF said:


> Again, see above. So you're saying the ones that are perhaps a bit more laidback in the litter are then not advertised as German Shepherds? Only those that display the epitomy of the breed, correct? So how does one advertise a whole litter of GSD pups when only those that are the "epitomy" are then classified as such. Do you tell people "Well, I have one or two German Shepherd Dog pups...these other two here are too soft, so we'll call them softie shepherds, this other one here looks like he's going to be oversized so we'll call him a "biggie shepherd", and finally we ended up having this one appear that looks to be a brown color (oops), so we'll call him a "lily livered shepherd".


I don't have enough experience to have an opinion on this topic. But, I did want to say that this is a very comical response!


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## GennieF

Scleropages said:


> "If your Shepherds look and act *considerably different* from the standard (*there is, of course, a grey area*), then you aren't really producing Shepherds anymore." is what I'm stating. If I were to breed GSD's towards a dog that was totally white with floppy ears, short legs, and hyper aggressive temperament, I believe it would be safe to say I wasn't producing GSD's anymore. The only distinct line for determining whether something fits within the breed is the standard, but most people would agree that a 26" tall or shy dog would still be considered a GSD, so there is a grey area...


At some point a dog isn't going to appear as the same breed, even if they are out of the same lines (Japanese and American Akita, English and American Cocker Spaniel, etc.). With the great variation with German Shepherd Dogs however, there is a pretty large grey area, and I always state how my dogs may differ from the typical GSD in case people are looking for that, and some that call me just may assume I have whatever type they're looking for. Honesty is the best policy, but my dogs are German Shepherd Dogs, just not a show quality representative.


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## GennieF

fuzzybunny said:


> I think Ash is beautiful and don't see a thing wrong from that video. I have a Shiloh Shepherd because I like big breeds and I like the GSD. It seemed like a good combo. I love Jazz but he doesn't have the same drive as a GSD. I've already decided that when I get another dog in the future it will be a GSD because I like their drive. If I have the option of getting a larger than standard GSD I will. It's just a personal preference. I think Ash is one handsome boy!


Thank you!



wildo said:


> I don't have enough experience to have an opinion on this topic. But, I did want to say that this is a very comical response!


It may be a funny and a smart butt remark, but it has a serious tone. What happens then when some of the pups are not 100% to standard. Those that are saying my dogs are not German Shepherrd dogs, what happens when you try to sell those pups? Do you just tell people "well this one would be atypical because..." How is that any different than what I do?


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## Zahnburg

GennieF said:


> What happens then when some of the pups are not 100% to standard?


Then THOSE pups are pets. What happens when you breed for "pets" and some of the pups are not up to snuff? What do you call them, glue? 

German Shepherd Dog breeding is working dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd Dog breeding.


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## Dr89

GennieF said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> It may be a funny and a smart butt remark, but it has a serious tone. What happens then when some of the pups are not 100% to standard. Those that are saying my dogs are not German Shepherrd dogs, what happens when you try to sell those pups? Do you just tell people "well this one would be atypical because..." How is that any different than what I do?


The difference is that you're taking the atypical and purposefully breeding for that.

I commend you for the health testing, restrictive registrations, etc. But a vital missing component is the proof of working ability. Which you rightly admit there is none, so I also commend you for being up front about that.

But many people that love the GSD want people to AIM for the standard, and sometimes it just doesn't happen, genetics are funny like that--no matter how thorough you are. 

But it is just intrinsically more acceptable for those that are aiming and doing everything they can to meet the standard, and then have a few pups who don't fit, than it is to try to be outside the standard just to fill a marketing niche.


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## gagsd

zahnburg said:


> then those pups are pets. What happens when you breed for "pets" and some of the pups are not up to snuff? What do you call them, glue?
> 
> German shepherd dog breeding is working dog breeding, or it is not german shepherd dog breeding.


:d :d :d :d :d :d !


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## GennieF

Zahnburg said:


> Then THOSE pups are pets. What happens when you breed for "pets" and some of the pups are not up to snuff? What do you call them, glue?
> 
> German Shepherd Dog breeding is working dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd Dog breeding.


I'm sorry, but I cannot see how "pets" cannot be "up to snuff", all our pets go to companion homes and have never had anyone not live up to that expectation. You do not have to like what I am doing, but you literally will have to accept it. So you are then saying your "pet" people are getting an inferior dog because those dogs are not living up to expectations? Or is it that the pet people want something different to begin with and never had that expectation anyway.


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## sitstay

Zahnburg said:


> Then THOSE pups are pets. What happens when you breed for "pets" and some of the pups are not up to snuff? What do you call them, glue?
> 
> German Shepherd Dog breeding is working dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd Dog breeding.


Best response EVER.
Sheilah


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## 4TheDawgies

GennieF if you loved German Shepherds so much you would breed to the standard. 

The fact of the matter is, you may like what you have, but what you have is no longer considered a German Shepherd because it is now extremely off from the standard. You have an oversized dog, with a long coat, similar coloration, pricked ears, different conformation and structure, and the temperament of a St. Bernard. 

German Shepherds are and should still be WORKING dogs through and through. Their conformation, structure, drives, temperament etc. are all aimed towards the ability to work. We LIKE that our dogs have working ability. I want a dog that can go all day with me. That can herd sheep, bite the bad guy, play fetch while we sit under a shaded tree, supervise my children, catch the rabbits eating our garden, guard our home at night, protect my car and myself. For the more intense dogs I like that we have German Shepherds who are even comparable to malinois and Dutchies who can kick A$$ out there in the police work and bring home the bad guys and find the drugs. 

Those dogs are saving lives, working hard, and are some really truely amazing dogs to have.


I have NO problems with someone trying to create a new breed. Its how my favorite breeds were created. The problem I do have with your breeding is you call them German Shepherds. Thats why everyone is so compelled to write in your posts. You do not have German Shepherds because you have been breeding against the standard for generations now. 

I have no problem with the lady who created Shiloh Shepherds because she recognized her dogs are different and has a different picture in mind for what she wants her dogs to be. 

I can respect that your dogs are cute, they are good with kids, and you like them and so do your puppy buyers. But you need to begin considering the idea that your dogs are not German Shepherds. 

I am glad you are honest about the facts of your dogs. I like that you are health testing. You are on the right track really you are. 

But what are you doing to prove your dogs have a temperament that can withstand stress. Whose to say your dogs aren't nervy or fear biters. A good breeder proves their stock in whatever they can that fits their breed the best. I personally do not trust just anyones opinions. Sorry been burned too much for that.


A reputable German Shepherd breeder, breeding to the standard who works and shows their dogs, both in working lines and show lines both have this much in common: they produce pets in every litter.

That being said, even in the working lines there will be some puppies who don't have the drive, or enough natural aggression to do the type of work some of the pick of the litter puppies could. So they go to very loving homes who want a German Shepherd. In the case of those puppies, they have great homes, they are still very much German Shepherds but they are not the top quality that should be considered for breeding thats all. It doesn't mean they are not German Shepherds. 

With how many dogs from reputable breeders are turning out to be pets, sometimes half the litter, sometimes even the whole litter because the parents just aren't good producers. Then why do we need people who breed specifically for dumbed down drives and temperaments?
We don't, theres just no reason for it. 

There are TOO MANY DOGS IN SHELTERS.

If someone wants a german shepherd but wants it to sit on their couch all day, then they shouldn't be getting a German Shepherd, in fact they shouldn't get a dog at all. They want a cosmetically pretty dog who will sit on their couch, be soft and look cute. Thats not what a dog is. A dogs place in the animal kingdom is an animal (canid) that travels all day, hunts for its food, lives with a pack, and has specific physical appearances, drives, temperaments, and abilities as well as structure to adhere to the demands their environment requires. 

If someone wants a dog to look cute and sit on the couch, get a small dog. But even those dogs are maniacs who run around and get neurotic with lack of exercise. 

If some form of a wolf does not adhere to the requirements of the wild, they die. The wonderful rules of mother nature. 



So all that being said. If you want to produce very large dogs, with pricked ears, some tan and black with long fur, that like to just lay around with you guys and be love bugs and couches. Then BY ALL MEANS. produce what you want and need. 
However I ask that you realize that is not what a German Shepherd is, is becoming, or should be.


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## Chicagocanine

Hey Gennie, I am curious what criteria you use for breeding/deciding which dogs to breed? 
For example I know people have different preferences and have different criteria and I've been told to look for different things or when someone asks about a breeder I've heard people say they would not use them because they don't do certain things. Such as some will only breed Champions, or have dogs get a certain level of sport or other titles before breeding, and/or only dogs who are a close match to the breed standard or have the most drive, etc...


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## Franksmom

My pup is from one of the "fashioned" breeders not GennieF but another breeder that health tests and IMO is responsible in how she breeds. 
Frank is my first GSD I've always owned herding line Border collies till now so High drive- High energy I'm very used to and know.
Because of my background with border collies I can see the argument against breeding a dog that does not have the "work ethic" of the breed, who would want a BC that couldn't herd. Hmmm but lots of people want BC's and many end up in rescues and shelters because the owners can't handle them. GSD's have the same problem. I would rather those people were able to get the dog they wanted then see many more dogs end up dumped without homes, and have mental problems because they weren't handled right as pups. 
I ended up going to one of the "old fashioned" breeders because I didnt' like the looks of the showline gsd, and from the research I had done the working lines seemed too high energy for exactly what I wanted since I wasn't interested in Sch. and all the working line breeders seemed to really push that . What I was interested in was a gsd with a good temperment, a breeder that did health checks, and had the drive to do competitive obedience and tracking. That's exactly what Frank is turning out to be.
Don't make the mistake of thinking "oversized old fashioned" equals no drive, overweight, and a non gsd personality.


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## GermanShepherds6800

Cop out breeding to make money on. You cannot "sell" gsds without having a gsd and those are not gsds. Your stud may not have hip dysplasia woots yay do jumping jacks but your pet market rarely proves their dogs or gets them checked in any way to have proper genetic pool to prove your over sized monster dogs can hold up. You do nothing with the dogs to prove hey can physically do schutzund or herding and still hold up so yeah your one gsd seems fine at his age. These dogs are bred to work and selling them as pets and no one checking the puppies produced allows the bad points that are NOT a gsd in form in function to scrape by for you to make excuses to keep producing.

Lets see these over sized dogs do agility, herding, schutzhund, fly ball, tracking, sar and many other activities the gsd excels at with the intelligence, drive, stamina, and physical capability and agile movement as well as a standard gsd and then we can discuss it further. They are over sized couch potato dogs that becomes couches and if they tried to do the functions of a standard gsd they could not achieve thus.


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## gagsd

The thought that you have to "dumb down" breeding stock to get large hairy housepets is just not true!
Here are two that I have (and have had) the joy of living with in my home.

Daughter of Stormfront's Brawnson:









Son Of Grim z Pohranicni straze CS









Both very nice, "take-anywhere" kind of dogs.


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## GennieF

4TheDawgies said:


> You do not have German Shepherds because you have been breeding against the standard for generations now.
> 
> But what are you doing to prove your dogs have a temperament that can withstand stress. Whose to say your dogs aren't nervy or fear biters. A good breeder proves their stock in whatever they can that fits their breed the best. I personally do not trust just anyones opinions. Sorry been burned too much for that.
> 
> With how many dogs from reputable breeders are turning out to be pets, sometimes half the litter, sometimes even the whole litter because the parents just aren't good producers. Then why do we need people who breed specifically for dumbed down drives and temperaments?
> We don't, theres just no reason for it.
> 
> There are TOO MANY DOGS IN SHELTERS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So all that being said. If you want to produce very large dogs, with pricked ears, some tan and black with long fur, that like to just lay around with you guys and be love bugs and couches. Then BY ALL MEANS. produce what you want and need.
> However I ask that you realize that is not what a German Shepherd is, is becoming, or should be.


And who exactly decides what a German Shepherd Dog is? The person breeding it, the person owning it, Von Stephanitz himself? Or is it just a majority of opinions for any given registry? I did want to highlight something, you said I have been breeding against the standard for "generations". ??? I am only on keeping my first generation dogs, I don't know where I personally have been breeding multiple generation comes in at. Regarding my dogs temperament, that's why people are welcome and come visit. They personally can assess the dog's temperament and if that's what they are looking for. As far as too many dogs in shelters goes, that is a shame, but that has nothing to do with me same as I'm sure it doesn't have much to do with other breeders here if they do the same as to taking back their dogs and at the very least limit breeding registration (I do not give breeding rights).


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## Emoore

GennieF said:


> And who exactly decides what a German Shepherd Dog is?


The standard does. How is this so hard to grasp?


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## GennieF

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Cop out breeding to make money on. You cannot "sell" gsds without having a gsd and those are not gsds. Your stud may not have hip dysplasia woots yay do jumping jacks but your pet market rarely proves their dogs or gets them checked in any way to have proper genetic pool to prove your over sized monster dogs can hold up. You do nothing with the dogs to prove hey can physically do schutzund or herding and still hold up so yeah your one gsd seems fine at his age. These dogs are bred to work and selling them as pets and no one checking the puppies produced allows the bad points that are NOT a gsd in form in function to scrape by for you to make excuses to keep producing.
> 
> Lets see these over sized dogs do agility, herding, schutzhund, fly ball, tracking, sar and many other activities the gsd excels at with the intelligence, drive, stamina, and physical capability and agile movement as well as a standard gsd and then we can discuss it further. They are over sized couch potato dogs that becomes couches and if they tried to do the functions of a standard gsd they could not achieve thus.


Wow, do you even know how to read? Seriously. Who said I WANTED to do schutzhund? And you caught me, yes..that's it. I'm RAKING IN THE DOUGH!!! Drats, someone found me out so now I must go into hiding I guess. Face it, not everyone wants that type of dog, I know it's hard for you to understand, but some people DO like things different from you. We aren't discussing anything further, we like separate things.


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## GennieF

Emoore said:


> The standard does. How is this so hard to grasp?


And standards change and evolve over time with the breed. How is that so hard to grasp?


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## Liesje

To me, a dog speaks for itself. I'm not really interested in what a breeder insists their dogs "could be"; I'm interested in what I personally see in the dog, what the dog has actually accomplished, what can be reasonably expected based on the pedigree, what I observe in the dog during training, stressful situations, or just socializing. I don't really see the point in starting threads to question breeders or dogs, or starting threads to justify breeders or dogs. It's a free country. We can all put our money where our mouths are and buy whatever type of dog we want and call it whatever we want. I would never be interested in a dog like the one posted in this thread, but why would that matter to anyone but me?


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## Emoore

GennieF said:


> And standards change and evolve over time with the breed. How is that so hard to grasp?


No, it really hasn't. People's interpretations have changed, but the standard hasn't really changed. You are breeding AKC-registered GSDs that are 180 degrees away from what the AKC standard says GSDs should be. Not only in height, but according to the descriptions from your own website, they're out of standard in temperament as well.


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## GermanShepherds6800

Do you require the pups you sell to be checked for genetic issues?
Do you require checks to be sure those pups do not end up in shelters?
Do you take them all back that become homeless?
Do you keep record of all dogs bred and the data of their health?
Do you hand pick homes for them to continue your data?
Do you require work or sport be done with your dogs to prove what you produce can do what a gsd should be able to do?

If the answer to any of these are no then you are just selling for pets and have no legit data to support your claims. Even breeder of the gsd who stay within the standards that break proving their dogs are frowned upon greatly as first and foremost these must remain working dogs. 

Just breeding for companion pets is a terrible thing in any breed.


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## TheNamesNelson

Lets say really like Bullmastiffs but you dont want such a big dog. You also want an extremely driven dog and don't like how mastiffs can be calm. You consistently breed them smaller and smaller, and make them more drivey. You end up with a 60lb, hyper driven mastiff looking dog. Is it still a Bullmastiff?

The answer is No, it is now a unique unrecognized breed with trait similarities to a Bullmastiff. A dog is what it is within a certain standard, the standards are tighter for show dogs. Standards are reasonable because there are mutations that come with every breeding. But breeding generations of 70-80lb driven GSDs may end up with some rare 100lb dogs, and those dogs are still considered GSDs. The important thing to remember is that you are breeding the standard. These oversized "GSDs" being bred arent just freaks of the litter, they are being bred out of standard and in my mind that makes them another breed.

Sounds like the OP is breeding a unique breed of dog that fits his preferences and the preferences of some of his clients. If the dogs are being bred with health and temperament in consideration, and the litters are all coming out within a uniform structure (forgiving the sometimes occuring genetic mutations) then im sure these dogs are just fine. The problem here is that they are being called German Shepherds.

I feel like the solution here would be removing the "German" in front of the name, and giving it something unique. White Shepherds came from German Shepherds, but even though they were not mixed with any other breed they were still against breed standards. It would be untruthful to breed these White Shepherds and sell them as White German Shepherds. The breed is now recieving its own recognition under the name White American Shepherd. AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association

I think the White Shepherd comparison is perfect here.


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## Emoore

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Just breeding for companion pets is a terrible thing in any breed.


Eh, some breeds were designed to be pets-- Shih Tzus, Boxers, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. I have no problem with breeding those dogs for companion pets. But just breeding solely for companion pets is a terrible thing in a working breed.


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## Jax08

Liesje said:


> ...I don't really see the point in starting threads to question breeders or dogs, or starting threads to justify breeders or dogs. It's a free country. We can all put our money where our mouths are and buy whatever type of dog we want and call it whatever we want. I would never be interested in a dog like the one posted in this thread, but why would that matter to anyone but me?


Pretty much what was just running through my head...only much more articulate.


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## Jax08

Emoore said:


> *Eh, some breeds were designed to be pets-- Shih Tzus, Boxers, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels*. I have no problem with breeding those dogs for companion pets. But just breeding solely for companion pets is a terrible thing in a working breed.


*NO! Sorry!* *Boxers are working dogs.* Irresponsible breeding has ruined this breed as well. I have two over nervous, wildly energetic, weak nerved Boxers. Shih Tzu's may have been bred for companion dogs but I believe spaniels are hunting/retrieving dogs.


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## GSD MOM

Jax08 said:


> Pretty much what was just running through my head...only much more articulate.


 
Ditto, seems like this entire thing was started for a fight. OP already knew how most of us felt and decided to start a thread to defend herself. Let's agree to disagree and move on...


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## GermanShepherds6800

Even those breeds that do not work have standards to keep them in check and healthy.

Breeding them just for companion pets still ruins them as the physical aspects change and cause problems in dogs that we created not nature. When people screw around with what the knowledgeable people that created the breeds on a whim it usually ends up badly. These dogs are put together the way they are for a look but some aspects over time were created even in pugs, maltese, yorkies ect.... for the breed general health structure. Anything out of balance creates issues that must be over come. A couple generations down of any pet breeding becomes to look like mixes in most cases as well.


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## Lilie

GSD MOM said:


> Ditto, seems like this entire thing was started for a fight. OP already knew how most of us felt and decided to start a thread to defend herself. Let's agree to disagree and move on...


This thread was started so more people would check out her site. I've no doubt it's working.


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## GennieF

Chicagocanine said:


> Hey Gennie, I am curious what criteria you use for breeding/deciding which dogs to breed?
> For example I know people have different preferences and have different criteria and I've been told to look for different things or when someone asks about a breeder I've heard people say they would not use them because they don't do certain things. Such as some will only breed Champions, or have dogs get a certain level of sport or other titles before breeding, and/or only dogs who are a close match to the breed standard or have the most drive, etc...


Temperament, calm and watchful to friendly (my dogs are overly friendly but some of the puppies I have produced are more typical with aloof temperament, I have no problem with that). As far as drive goes, we focus on low to medium intensity. As of now I have not had any surprises pop up where we were producing dogs with more intense drive than the parents, which of course could happen. Of course physical appearance, which would size, is a factor. Thick bone structure, nice head, ears in proportion, a wider stance, no to moderate angulation, large size to oversized but of course in proportion. Pedigree would come into play too, even if a specific dog is very nice I am unsure I would want to take on certain pedigrees because of what they would bring in. Health testing...hips..elbows...my males test as DM clear but I'd still like to try and get females done, TLI testing as well. Just because a dog may not physically be my 100% ideal, it doesn't mean they may not produce it for me, in my opinion, when bred with the right dog to compliment him or her. Hope this makes sense.


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## GermanShepherds6800

I just found the video this was referring to. The person came here to defend their dog yes, however the person that went running to them to tell them it was discussed here is the trouble maker really. She is just defending what she is doing in these breedings and that is a natural response. If you are looking for a trouble maker it would be the person who rant to get her and bring her here. 

That said, Your gsd has poor structure for gsd and none of the trait qualities of the breed looking closer to a malamute with gsd coloring. If you are not breeding a gsd please do not call it a gsd.


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## GSD MOM

Lilie said:


> This thread was started so more people would check out her site. I've no doubt it's working.


great, even worse.


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## GermanShepherds6800

You are honestly proud of the build of these dogs? You honestly believe they are gsds in look? 

Pioneer German Shepherds - Oversized German Shepherd puppies from past litters

Seriously?


oh my I see even breeding bitches with falling down ears.......


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## GennieF

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Do you require the pups you sell to be checked for genetic issues?
> Do you require checks to be sure those pups do not end up in shelters?
> Do you take them all back that become homeless?
> Do you keep record of all dogs bred and the data of their health?
> Do you hand pick homes for them to continue your data?
> Do you require work or sport be done with your dogs to prove what you produce can do what a gsd should be able to do?
> 
> If the answer to any of these are no then you are just selling for pets and have no legit data to support your claims. Even breeder of the gsd who stay within the standards that break proving their dogs are frowned upon greatly as first and foremost these must remain working dogs.
> 
> Just breeding for companion pets is a terrible thing in any breed.


To the first, no, however I have had people get their dogs x-rayed when spayed/neutered and so far good results. To the 2nd, we have a requirement in our contract that if a person cannot keep the dog the dog COMES BACK TO US. As of now, no. In addition, we sell on a spay/neuter contract so people are well aware that we are not selling them a dog intended to be bred, of course that is not 100% preventable but you screen as best you can. 

3 - What kind of silly thing is it to ask what type of health my dogs that have been bred have? They are health tested before breeding, so yes, and if in the cases of dogs that are in retirement and placed in homes I make sure people will continue to update me on the status of, and eventual passing, of their dog as well as the specifics.

4 - Do I hand pick and screen homes? Yes, just because someone waves $$ in my nose doesn't mean I'll sell them a dog and I've turned away many.

5 - Do I require a working home? Nope! If someone would like to work my dog, we do have dogs that are therapy or assistance dogs, I have had some interested in search and rescue but there is absolutely no requirement because we are not breeding for work. It can be quite a shock to those that aren't breeding working dogs, but companions have their place.


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## GennieF

Emoore said:


> Eh, some breeds were designed to be pets-- Shih Tzus, Boxers, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. I have no problem with breeding those dogs for companion pets. But just breeding solely for companion pets is a terrible thing in a working breed.


That is where you and I will disagree. I do not think the people that own my dogs think of them as "wastes", and like I said I can respect the working GSD. Clearly they have their place, but because my dogs are not "filling space" where an otherwise "good" GSD would go, then I don't see how it could be seen as such.


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## GermanShepherds6800

so only you are allowed to breed these oversized non standard dogs for cash? The puppy breeders cant get in on the market and share it with you and that makes you think what you are doing is a lesser offense to the breed because only you are doing it? You are breeding soft ears and no structure so you do not prevent them for breeding for the good of the breed you are only protecting your market.


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## GennieF

Lilie said:


> This thread was started so more people would check out her site. I've no doubt it's working.


Yes, clearly that's it! I've wanted to have a bunch of working line breeders flock to my site and have a heart attack. I didn't even post my website, I did post two pics though which has big fat watermarks, but that's not the same as saying "Oh hey, check out my doggies!!" Just Ash, because he was already mentioned by someone other than myself.

As I stated, there were a bunch of "hit and run" posts on that other thread and did want my comments placed somewhere where people would read. If you take a look at the topics here on this board, a lot of them DO have to do with oversized dogs, this is just another topic but from a breeder's perspective.


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## GermanShepherds6800

A 32 inch puppy being called a gsd wow that is the preferred size of miniature horses!!


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## GennieF

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> so only you are allowed to breed these oversized non standard dogs for cash? The puppy breeders cant get in on the market and share it with you and that makes you think what you are doing is a lesser offense to the breed because only you are doing it? You are breeding soft ears and no structure so you do not prevent them for breeding for the good of the breed you are only protecting your market.


Where am I breeding soft ears? Did I breed one female with a *broken* ear? YEP! Am I producing soft ears? NOPE! I've had 3 pups so far out of all the litters, including one that may have been environmental due to other dogs pulling on the ears. As far as me not selling breeding dogs and it being a lesser offense on the breed? I don't do it for that reason, but the point is I don't. As far as me only protecting my market, sure I guess that would factor in, but I'm just not interested in selling anything but companions. Be happy


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## Chicagocanine

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Lets see these over sized dogs do agility, herding, schutzhund, fly ball, tracking, sar and many other activities the gsd excels at with the intelligence, drive, stamina, and physical capability and agile movement as well as a standard gsd and then we can discuss it further. They are over sized couch potato dogs that becomes couches and if they tried to do the functions of a standard gsd they could not achieve thus.


I posted this in an old post (like 2 years ago) but it seems like it would fit in here. I didn't re-test the links so I'm sorry if any have gone defunct since I last posted them. The previous post was about SAR/police so that is what the dogs are below, although I'm sure I could find a lot more who do tracking, agility, herding, Sch, etc.

An "oversized" GSD (from a breeder who breeds for oversized dogs)-








An article about this dog's help in finding a missing woman: Missing woman found; Alpena woman aids in search - TheAlpenaNews.com | News, Sports, Jobs, Michigan, Community Information - The Alpena News (Note that while the article says "king German Shepherd" the dog is from a GSD breeder, and is not a King Shepherd.)

Here are a few more:









"This photo was taken in West Sussex, England, in August 1993, where the police very kindly demonstrated to us their Olderhills in action. I'm holding Ben (Olderhill Lofty) the hero of their station." 
"They are the original big, healthy, flat-backed German Shepherd Dogs of the 1940's that have been preserved over time and isolated from new bloodlines and fashion. "
(Note I am not saying the statements here about the lines are accurate, just that they are oversized dogs and some do police work)










"Storm, has been on patrol since December 2001. Storm is a black & tan German shepherd. He was born on September 18, 1999 and he weighs *100 pounds*." 


http://www.schererville.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=50 
"In Honor Of "Boss" *105 lbs* In Service from July 4th 1994 to May 18th 2006
In Honor of "Karr" *100 lbs* In Service from 1999 to Feb 23rd 2006"
"Both of the police dogs are German Shepherds which were purchased from breeders"


From the CIA's K9 Hall of Fame website:
"Hey everyone! I’m Dino. I am a German Shepherd. .... I weigh *110 pounds*"
"I’m Orry. ... I weigh* 100 pounds*."










Brutus remains a cop to the end: Regina Brett | cleveland.com
"Brutus weighs 125 pounds. He's solid muscle, a majestic black and tan German shepherd with a huge thick head. He's so big, his muzzle lands flat on the dinner table when he sidles up to mooch food."
Another article about this dog: A 6-pound police dog? Meet Midge 
"For the last seven years, there has been one top dog in the Geauga County Sheriff's Department - Brutus, the big German Shepherd has been the go-to canine." "*125-pound* Brutus..."


K-9 team's special bond built on two-way trust (WITH MULTIMEDIA) (article)
"All three dogs and handlers have been responding to regular police calls..."
"Tank, a 2-year-old *120-pound *German shepherd..."

http://www.ricsar.org/sarnewsevents.html 
"Former resident and his dog are part of search and rescue team" (article)
"Fisher, a *120-pound *German shepherd"

"Utah K-9s tackle copter training" 
"Reed's partner, Dukes, is the largest K9 of his class, weighing a "conservative" *110 pounds*"

K-9 Division 
"Benny is a male German Shepherd, 5 years old, weighing* 110 pounds*. ... Benny was trained in Patrol (obedience, tracking, building searches, aggression/apprehension), and Narcotics"


http://archive.ci.roseville.mn.us/police/k9/Unit_Past_Members.html








"Ice was the top dog in his K-9 Minneapolis Police Department class.
He was awarded the Minnesota Hall of Fame Professional Award in 1996 by the MN Veterinary Medical Association. He took 3rd place in the Regional Criminal Apprehension trials in 1996. ... Weighing in at *110 pounds*, Ice was successful in tracking and apprehending many suspects during his six year career with the Department. "

Canines Combat Crime 
"Hartman said that Chesterfield’s K-9 unit has eight dogs .... “The unit has one that is *110 pounds.*“" "











(Service dog, from a breeder of 'oversized' dogs)


----------



## GermanShepherds6800

Do not fool yourself. You may not have many floppy eared pups atm but an experienced eye sees many of your dogs heading that way within the next generation among other issues. You are now even looking for puppy farming owners I see. Yep true pa dog breeders at it's finest.


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## Mrs.K

> "Storm, has been on patrol since December 2001. Storm is a black & tan German shepherd. He was born on September 18, 1999 and he weighs *100 pounds*."


Is the black&tan Storm actually the sable in the picture? :help:

And as for media getting the weight right... I wouldn't be surprised if they had guessed their weight.


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## GermanShepherds6800

awww Chicago are you the whistle blower? 

I would be interested in studying how many of those dogs posted in your thread held up to those jobs. They can always say an over sized dog has become a sar dog it does not say the dog could do it or how long. As an experienced dog person who worked dogs professionally with police and other venues I can say those dogs most likly washed out and were unable to physically maintain their jobs.


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## Jax08

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Yep true *pa* dog breeders at it's finest.


PA? As in Pennsylvania? If so, I'm sure you'll find workingline breeders in PA that might be offended by your statement.


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## GermanShepherds6800

awesome photo error catch Mrs.K


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## GermanShepherds6800

Let me amend that to PA puppy mill and pet producing breeders


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## GennieF

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Do not fool yourself. You may not have many floppy eared pups atm but an experienced eye sees many of your dogs heading that way within the next generation among other issues. You are not even looking for puppy farming owners I see. Yep true pa dog breeders at it's finest.


I'll bet! It seems you know more about my dogs, my pedigrees and my puppies than I do. Armchair quarterbacks at their finest.


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## GermanShepherds6800

Armchair quarterbacks never played or washed out in high school.

I would match my experience and knowledge against you any day in dogs. What have you accomplished with dogs before just pet breeding?

I have a background in pd K9. I have three cadaver dogs. I breed working lines and have two show lines that have also done well for themselves. I also train and breed a couple mals and have done everything under the sun with them as well. I also do rescue work giving back to the dogs what they need because of breeders like you.


----------



## Chicagocanine

Mrs.K said:


> Is the black&tan Storm actually the sable in the picture? :help:
> 
> And as for media getting the weight right... I wouldn't be surprised if they had guessed their weight.


I doubt that every single one of those have had the weight listed completely wrong? Some are from "the media"(articles) but many are not.

Oops... Sorry, I guess I had posted the wrong photo originally, I did not notice that! (As I said, I just re-posted what I had in the previous post I had replied to on a similar topic which was about two years ago, although I did add one or two photos.) There were two police dogs pictured on the same page, so I must have posted the wrong photo. 

My point in posting those photos/links was just to counteract what others said that all oversized dogs CAN'T do anything but be couch potatoes. I have a feeling there are quite a few dogs on this board as well that are over the breed standard and don't just lay around 24/7.




GermanShepherds6800 said:


> awww Chicago are you the whistle blower?


What whistle blower? I have no idea what this statement means?


----------



## GennieF

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Armchair quarterbacks never played or washed out in high school.
> 
> I would match my experience and knowledge against you any day in dogs. What have you accomplished with dogs before just pet breeding?
> 
> I have a background in pd K9. I have three cadaver dogs. I breed working lines and have two show lines that have also done well for themselves. I also train and breed a couple mals and have done everything under the sun with them as well. I also do rescue work giving back to the dogs what they need because of breeders like you.


Are you saying that my dogs are in rescue? Nope, we take our dogs back! You already asked those questions and I answered you then. I'm glad you are contributing to the working GSD, that's great, however you make blanket statements about what I am going to produce generations onward which I find odd. As far as what I have accomplished, see above. We produce companions, some have gone on to be therapy and assistance dogs. Our dogs are pets, so apparently an abomination. Obviously most don't like our dogs, that is fine, it is what it is. I did want to address my side of the story since people were trying to say my dogs are "sore" and appear to have "hip problems" due to a video of Ash on snow.


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## 4TheDawgies

GennieF said:


> And who exactly decides what a German Shepherd Dog is? The person breeding it, the person owning it, Von Stephanitz himself? Or is it just a majority of opinions for any given registry? I did want to highlight something, you said I have been breeding against the standard for "generations". ??? I am only on keeping my first generation dogs, I don't know where I personally have been breeding multiple generation comes in at. Regarding my dogs temperament, that's why people are welcome and come visit. They personally can assess the dog's temperament and if that's what they are looking for. As far as too many dogs in shelters goes, that is a shame, but that has nothing to do with me same as I'm sure it doesn't have much to do with other breeders here if they do the same as to taking back their dogs and at the very least limit breeding registration (I do not give breeding rights).


Gee my bad I assumed you had multiple generations because you have two stud males who are both against the standard

and five actively breeding females also against the standard
with five retired females who are also against the standard. 

You have produced puppies on your progeny page that are over 3 years old. So you have been doing this enough to be on your second generation. That is multiple generations. 

that to me looks like you have been breeding for a WHILE. 

then again I suppose its possible you just bought a BUNCH of dogs so you can produce a lot of dogs to make money.

THE STANDARD is THE STANDARD because it is what depicts what makes a dog a German Shepherd. If your dogs do not fit the standard, are not bred to the standard, and the breeding dogs and produced dogs are not to the standard then you are breeding AGAINST the standard and you do NOT have German Shepherds. 


This video on your website drives me nuts





You claim that your dogs are like the old fashioned dogs. But heres the difference between your dogs and the "old fashioned GSD's"

Your dog you use as an example right next to rin tin tin is a perfect example. 

falling down ears, weak pigment, long coat, oversized.
you go on to describe your dogs are low to medium drives. 

Rin tin tin wouldn't be such a great dog withOUT having the drives he had. 

You claim you need low drives for a dog to be good with children... I beg to differ. Here are my two driviest dogs in my pack. Interacting with a baby gentle as can be. 





Do my dogs look out of control? can't calm down? absolutely not!

the video clip of a child jumping up and down on your dog screams at me. Your dogs may be nice and all, they may be great with children. But I would absolutely never allow a child to disrespect a dog in that mannor. No matter how solid of a temperament dogs "correct" other creatures for hurting them. Your child could easily hurt your dog doing that and cause your dog to act in a corrective mannor causing harm to your child. This demonstrates to me that you lack the common sense to respect your dogs and keep your children (furry and skin) safe.





GennieF said:


> That is where you and I will disagree. I do not think the people that own my dogs think of them as "wastes", and like I said I can respect the working GSD. Clearly they have their place, but because my dogs are not "filling space" where an otherwise "good" GSD would go, then I don't see how it could be seen as such.


but that is where you are wrong my friend. No matter what you say if you are calling your dogs German Shepherds, your dogs ARE taking the space where a "good" German Shepherd would go. If there were no oversized long coated dogs called German Shepherds to buy from, the people who are purchasing your dogs WOULD go to a German Shepherd breeder who breeds to the standard.


----------



## NancyJ

Chicagocanine - Not taking issue with this breeder because claims of working ability are NOT being made but I can assure you that VERY FEW SAR dogs are big oversize lugs. Just about anybody doing SAR wants to go smaller than bigger. 

Your post kind of implies the extreme is the mean and it is nowhere near and I have seen a lot of GSDs who do search and rescue and very very very very few gentle giants. Same thing with the police K9s I have seen.

Most are pretty well within the standard


----------



## Lilie

GennieF said:


> Yes, clearly that's it! I've wanted to have a bunch of working line breeders flock to my site and have a heart attack. I didn't even post my website, I did post two pics though which has big fat watermarks, but that's not the same as saying "Oh hey, check out my doggies!!" Just Ash, because he was already mentioned by someone other than myself.
> 
> As I stated, there were a bunch of "hit and run" posts on that other thread and did want my comments placed somewhere where people would read. If you take a look at the topics here on this board, a lot of them DO have to do with oversized dogs, this is just another topic but from a breeder's perspective.


Nope, not what I meant. I'm not a breeder. I have a dog that is an oversized coatie. He can't be worked due to an injury when he was a puppy. Not really a couch potato at the moment as he is not even two yet, but I can see that being a definate possiblity in his near future. He is aloof, and not a very social dog. 

I went to your site.


----------



## Dr89

GennieF, despite everything else being said; this is what i fear happening with dogs like yours and breeders who do not respect what the GSD is. read the description, this could very well be one of your pups--you just never know.

Long haired German Shepherd Puppies | Otway | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 8576763


----------



## GennieF

4TheDawgies said:


> Gee my bad I assumed you had multiple generations because you have two stud males who are both against the standard
> 
> and five actively breeding females also against the standard
> with five retired females who are also against the standard.
> 
> You have produced puppies on your progeny page that are over 3 years old. So you have been doing this enough to be on your second generation. That is multiple generations.
> 
> that to me looks like you have been breeding for a WHILE.
> 
> then again I suppose its possible you just bought a BUNCH of dogs so you can produce a lot of dogs to make money.
> 
> THE STANDARD is THE STANDARD because it is what depicts what makes a dog a German Shepherd. If your dogs do not fit the standard, are not bred to the standard, and the breeding dogs and produced dogs are not to the standard then you are breeding AGAINST the standard and you do NOT have German Shepherds.
> 
> 
> This video on your website drives me nuts
> YouTube - Large German Shepherds - Large German Shepherd breeder in PA
> 
> You claim that your dogs are like the old fashioned dogs. But heres the difference between your dogs and the "old fashioned GSD's"
> 
> Your dog you use as an example right next to rin tin tin is a perfect example.
> 
> falling down ears, weak pigment, long coat, oversized.
> you go on to describe your dogs are low to medium drives.
> 
> Rin tin tin wouldn't be such a great dog withOUT having the drives he had.
> 
> You claim you need low drives for a dog to be good with children... I beg to differ. Here are my two driviest dogs in my pack. Interacting with a baby gentle as can be.
> YouTube - Loki and Havoc loving on a giggly baby
> 
> Do my dogs look out of control? can't calm down? absolutely not!
> 
> the video clip of a child jumping up and down on your dog screams at me. Your dogs may be nice and all, they may be great with children. But I would absolutely never allow a child to disrespect a dog in that mannor. No matter how solid of a temperament dogs "correct" other creatures for hurting them. Your child could easily hurt your dog doing that and cause your dog to act in a corrective mannor causing harm to your child. This demonstrates to me that you lack the common sense to respect your dogs and keep your children (furry and skin) safe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but that is where you are wrong my friend. No matter what you say if you are calling your dogs German Shepherds, your dogs ARE taking the space where a "good" German Shepherd would go. If there were no oversized long coated dogs called German Shepherds to buy from, the people who are purchasing your dogs WOULD go to a German Shepherd breeder who breeds to the standard.


We are not working on breeding multiple generations yet, just because we have older pups means we're out to hurry up and crank out generation upon generation and some dogs were not even able to breed even though they passed testing. We don't look to produce litters upon litters and only have about two per year. Regarding old fashioned, that is a look. An appearance, not a slanted back or roached. As far as your dogs go, that's cute, but a dog with a high drive just means they would take MORE EFFORT on the part of the owner in order to calm down. 

And of course we don't have the kids usually doing that, however my dogs are brought up with kids holding them, touching them. Kids will accidently fall on them, they are not phased. Ash voluntarily comes into the room where the kids crawl on them and while that video showcases he is tolerant, it's not as if he is in there all the time like that. They are also taught to be nice to dogs. If you feel that my dogs are truly taking away from any of business that would otherwise go to you, I guess that means you'll just have to market your dogs as more family friendly, but as it is people will always want what they want. You are wishing for all larger sized long coats to go away, that will not happen.


----------



## Lucy Dog

GennieF said:


> Where am I breeding soft ears? Did I breed one female with a *broken* ear? YEP! Am I producing soft ears? NOPE! I've had 3 pups so far out of all the litters, including one that may have been environmental due to other dogs pulling on the ears


Lol... so soft ears is where you draw the line? That's something you just won't stand for? 

Why am i even getting involved in this train wreck?! Ok... I'll just continue minding my own business... just couldnt resist.


----------



## GennieF

Dr89 said:


> GennieF, despite everything else being said; this is what i fear happening with dogs like yours and breeders who do not respect what the GSD is. read the description, this could very well be one of your pups--you just never know.
> 
> Long haired German Shepherd Puppies | Otway | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 8576763


Actually I have seen that ad before, that is not one of my pups though I know where the dog came from. Something like that is not unique just to the large, long coat GSD world, scummy people exist everywhere.


----------



## GennieF

Lilie said:


> Nope, not what I meant. I'm not a breeder. I have a dog that is an oversized coatie. He can't be worked due to an injury when he was a puppy. Not really a couch potato at the moment as he is not even two yet, but I can see that being a definate possiblity in his near future. He is aloof, and not a very social dog.
> 
> I went to your site.


I'm glad to hear that, I do not understand what you mean then by me trying to get people to my website when I did not even post the link as that was not my point. I just posted pictures, and obviously most on this board are not keen to this type of GSD so I don't see how there would be any type of enticement for me to post it on here.


----------



## Chicagocanine

jocoyn said:


> Your post kind of implies the extreme is the mean and it is nowhere near and I have seen a lot of GSDs who do search and rescue and very very very very few gentle giants. Same thing with the police K9s I have seen.


I was not trying to say that all SAR or police dogs are oversized, or even that it is common. I have no vested interest in these dogs myself. I was just counteracting the post that said that oversized dogs CANNOT DO these things.

This is what I was responding to:
"Lets see these over sized dogs do agility, herding, schutzhund, fly ball, tracking, sar and many other activities the gsd excels at with the intelligence, drive, stamina, and physical capability and agile movement as well as a standard gsd and then we can discuss it further. They are over sized couch potato dogs that becomes couches and if they tried to do the functions of a standard gsd they could not achieve thus."




GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I would be interested in studying how many of those dogs posted in your thread held up to those jobs. They can always say an over sized dog has become a sar dog it does not say the dog could do it or how long. As an experienced dog person who worked dogs professionally with police and other venues I can say those dogs most likly washed out and were unable to physically maintain their jobs.


I don't know the complete answer to this, but if you look at the quotes you can see that several mention dogs who were on the job for an extended amount of time or explain awards/merits they have received for their work. For example, one article said, "For the last seven years, there has been one top dog in the Geauga County Sheriff's Department, Brutus, the big German Shepherd has been the go-to canine."


----------



## warpwr

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Do you require the pups you sell to be checked for genetic issues?
> Do you require checks to be sure those pups do not end up in shelters?
> Do you take them all back that become homeless?
> Do you keep record of all dogs bred and the data of their health?
> Do you hand pick homes for them to continue your data?
> Do you require work or sport be done with your dogs to prove what you produce can do what a gsd should be able to do?
> 
> If the answer to any of these are no then you are just selling for pets and have no legit data to support your claims. Even breeder of the gsd who stay within the standards that break proving their dogs are frowned upon greatly as first and foremost these must remain working dogs.
> 
> Just breeding for companion pets is a terrible thing in any breed.


The breeder we bought from doesn't require all of those things but they did breed the only GSD to ever win best in show at Westminster.


----------



## Mrs.K

As I said before, it's like beating a dead horse and you are getting nowhere. None of you will change each others mind. Gennie will continue breeding her dogs despite what everybody thinks and she'll have buyers for them too. 

And we will continue preaching to the choir just as we do each and every day. 

I have to agree with Nancy, very view oversized and heavy dogs go into work, just like very view overzided-big people can't do certain jobs. Why do you think I have to get into shape to do what I like doing. If I don't I couldn't keep up. It's a matter of stamina, endurance and condition. Doesn't matter if it is dog or people. They need to be fit for duty.


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## GennieF

Lucy Dog said:


> Lol... so soft ears is where you draw the line? That's something you just won't stand for?
> 
> Why am i even getting involved in this train wreck?! Ok... I'll just continue minding my own business... just couldnt resist.


Yes, that's clearly what I said  Only soft ears...nothing else. I didn't say I wanted to produce dogs without health issues out of health tested parents that are similar in appearance and temperament to my own. It was all about the ears.


----------



## GennieF

Mrs.K said:


> As I said before, it's like beating a dead horse and you are getting nowhere. None of you will change each others mind. Gennie will continue breeding her dogs despite what everybody thinks and she'll have buyers for them too.
> 
> And we will continue preaching to the choir just as we do each and every day.
> 
> I have to agree with Nancy, very view oversized and heavy dogs go into work, just like very view overzided-big people can't do certain jobs. Why do you think I have to get into shape to do what I like doing. If I don't I couldn't keep up. It's a matter of stamina, endurance and condition. Doesn't matter if it is dog or people. They need to be fit for duty.


It just amounts to agreeing to disagreeing. In the end perhaps someone learned something about how some other types of breeders think, and perhaps I've come away with some more knowledge as well. I can't stay on anymore because I have stuff to do and put it off due to the boards, but it was interesting and enlightening.


----------



## Lilie

GennieF said:


> I'm glad to hear that, I do not understand what you mean then by me trying to get people to my website when I did not even post the link as that was not my point. I just posted pictures, and obviously most on this board are not keen to this type of GSD so I don't see how there would be any type of enticement for me to post it on here.


Oh, I don't know. Maybe the fact that as of this 80th post there have been 733 views on this thread alone.


----------



## Lucy Dog

GennieF said:


> Yes, that's clearly what I said  Only soft ears...nothing else. I didn't say I wanted to produce dogs without health issues out of health tested parents that are similar in appearance and temperament to my own. It was all about the ears.


I know what you've said. You health test...your dogs are good with kids... i know. I've been reading and keeping to myself. I think the others have already said over and over what I've been thinking.

I just find it humorous that you've been called out (and you agree) for breeding outside of the standard with regards to size, working ability, temperament and pretty much everything else that this breed should be, but when called out for producing dogs with soft ears, you made it a point to address and correct like that it's just something you wouldnt do. 

I mean, at this point, who cares if your dogs have 3 soft ears, right? If you don't care about anything else that the standard calls for, why care about not producing dogs with soft ears?


----------



## Chicagocanine

Mrs.K said:


> I have to agree with Nancy, very view oversized and heavy dogs go into work, just like very view overzided-big people can't do certain jobs. Why do you think I have to get into shape to do what I like doing. If I don't I couldn't keep up. It's a matter of stamina, endurance and condition. Doesn't matter if it is dog or people. They need to be fit for duty.


IMO comparing dogs that are over the breed standard to "big people" is inaccurate because oversized in a GSD does not automatically equal out of shape or overweight (for their size.)
I bet a lot of people on this forum have dogs who are over the breed standard in height. Just look at the threads asking the sizes of peoples' dogs to see how many have taller than 24" females or 26" males (or whatever the cm/FCI equivalent is.) I am sure some of them at least would not agree that their dogs are overweight, poor condition and/or do not have stamina/endurance.


----------



## Mrs.K

> I mean, at this point, who cares if your dogs have 3 soft ears, right? If you don't care about anything else that the standard calls for, why care about not producing dogs with soft ears?


It can happen with the best breeding programs that you have a pup or two whose ear won't go up, or not completely go up or goes down after it went up due to an injury or anything else... 

However, a "Schildspanner" (Greta) shouldn't be bred, that I agree with. They are faulty but that doesn't mean that they have not been bred throughout the years, even been shown and gekoered. Those kind of dogs were bred in German Showlines just as much as she breeds them. 

So she's not the only one doing it. At least she's honest about it and she admits that she's breeding outside the standard. 

Many other people simply close their eyes to what is going on, I can't say that about Gennie, even though I do not agree with her breeding program I can appreciate her honesty.


----------



## GennieF

Lilie said:


> Oh, I don't know. Maybe the fact that as of this 80th post there have been 733 views on this thread alone.


Controversy is interesting...what can I say...



Lucy Dog said:


> I know what you've said. You health test...your dogs are good with kids... i know. I've been reading and keeping to myself. I think the others have already said over and over what I've been thinking.
> 
> I just find it humorous that you've been called out (and you agree) for breeding outside of the standard with regards to size, working ability, temperament and pretty much everything else that this breed should be, but when called out for producing dogs with soft ears, you made it a point to address and correct like that it's just something you wouldnt do.
> 
> I mean, at this point, who cares if your dogs have 3 soft ears, right? If you don't care about anything else that the standard calls for, why care about not producing dogs with soft ears?


I've been called out on something I state before even being called out on? How does that work? While our dogs may not be show quality as per the standard, they still appear physically as most people would recognize a German Shepherd, and yes that includes upright ears they are just atypical due to what I always stress again and again. With that I do have to go because i have not done much all day but if anyone is genuinely interested in my dogs they would be able to figure out how to contact me. As I said, definitely interesting discussion.


----------



## Mrs.K

Chicagocanine said:


> IMO comparing dogs that are over the breed standard to "big people" is inaccurate because oversized in a GSD does not automatically equal out of shape or overweight (for their size.)
> I bet a lot of people on this forum have dogs who are over the breed standard in height. Just look at the threads asking the sizes of peoples' dogs to see how many have taller than 24" females or 26" males (or whatever the cm/FCI equivalent is.) I am sure some of them at least would not agree that their dogs are overweight, poor condition and/or do not have stamina/endurance.


Do you know how many working line dogs can't keep up because they are out of shape and people don't see the need to work on their endurance? We've just had the WM Qualification for SAR dogs in Germany and many dogs were disqualified because they couldn't keep up. If WL dogs have issues how do you think those oversized, big, heavy, thick coated dogs are doing?

I am not talking about a couple of inches and a few pounds out of standard. I am talking about those grossly oversized 120+ pound dogs...


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## crisp

There was a time when I wanted to become a horse jockey, but as i weigh about 70 lbs more than the standard requirement, my hopes were scratched. Now, when people ask what I do, I say 'I'm an oversized jockey'.


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## 4TheDawgies

GennieF said:


> We are not working on breeding multiple generations yet, just because we have older pups means we're out to hurry up and crank out generation upon generation and some dogs were not even able to breed even though they passed testing. We don't look to produce litters upon litters and only have about two per year. Regarding old fashioned, that is a look. An appearance, not a slanted back or roached. As far as your dogs go, that's cute, but a dog with a high drive just means they would take MORE EFFORT on the part of the owner in order to calm down.


Incorrect again my friend. I have done absolutely positively nothing in the works of trying to "calm" my dogs down. a simple "easy" will suffice to let them know to be extra careful around a child. 

The great thing about having a dog to the standard is, they can and will and do turn their drives on and off. They have what a lot of working dog people call the switch. An easy on and off button. 

Let me give you an example of two of my dogs in my pack.

We have Veda. My white Shepherd, a product of back yard breeding to its finest. She has allergies, hypothyroidism, is very nervy, no off switch, high anxiety, fair elbows and fair hips. 








Is bandy legged.


this is a dog that I got when I didn't know what to look for in a German Shepherd. How many of your clients go in to buy a German Shepherd from you expecting what I have in my THIRD German Shepherd, and end up with a dog like yours. poor conformation (aww dang we can't show our dog), low drive (hard to train because the dog doesn't have drive to do things for the owner), no willing to please temperament (the dog just wants to lay on the floor now we can do search and rescue), the dog has hypo or hyperthyroidism (because you dont test for it).

For people who don't know better, they may not be getting what they expected in their dog but they didn't know what to look for. 

I couldn't understand in the beginning why my cute white shepherd didn't want to explore everything in the world with Gusto. She would pee herself if you leaned over her. She would scream bloody murder if you left her alone. She would tuck her tail and scream and run when another dog approached her confidently. 

I didn't want a dog like that. But I got stuck with it because some idiot out there is breeding dogs like this and doesn't test their dogs for temperaments, working ability, health, and drives. 


Now lets take a look at my third German Shepherd. The one I knew what I was looking for. The one I did my research on. The one whose parents are health tested, worked, shown, have pedigrees, are registered, are bred to the standard.

He works in Schutzhund, He is shown, He has good conformation moving like a dream, Very smooth gait. He has a wonderful on and off switch. I cannot vouch for his health as his hips and elbows have not been Xrayed yet but he will be fully health tested to prove all that is great. But I have no concerns considering his parents are 100% healthy in more ways that just good hips. 

This puppy goes into everything with gusto, he is confident and sure of himself. He has amazing working ability in that he has the drives, the focus, and the willingness to work for me and please. Its not just willingness, its a DRIVE to want to work for me. 
Working for me can be anything from going to work with me at a dog and horse supply store and greeting customers, herding sheep, doing obedience, tracking, going to schutzhund, playing fetch.

You name it, the possibilities are endless. Some of his siblings are already used in service dog work, some are titled in Schutzhund, others are showing etc. 

Most of them however, are WONDERFUL loving companions. They are great pets because they just want to PLEASE their owners. Being from quality stock with drives does not mean they need to be settled down. It just means if you want them to they can bring it. 

Dogs with drive and willingness to please means they are EASY to train because they WANT to learn. 



GennieF said:


> And of course we don't have the kids usually doing that, however my dogs are brought up with kids holding them, touching them. Kids will accidently fall on them, they are not phased. Ash voluntarily comes into the room where the kids crawl on them and while that video showcases he is tolerant, it's not as if he is in there all the time like that. They are also taught to be nice to dogs. If you feel that my dogs are truly taking away from any of business that would otherwise go to you, I guess that means you'll just have to market your dogs as more family friendly, but as it is people will always want what they want. You are wishing for all larger sized long coats to go away, that will not happen.


thats great that you raise your dogs with lots of things socialized and exposed to. Far too many breeders take that time for granted and only do socialization after 8 weeks. But from day 1 to those 8 weeks is the real foundation for everything and is the building blocks from which your dogs become. 
That being said, it still is not ok for a child to jump on a dog in the manner I observed in your video. I can't tell you how many threads I see on forums discussing how disturbed the members are observing children grabbing dogs food bowls, pinching ears, sitting on them, etc. 
Your video is exactly some of the things dog people cringe over. I have a very solid dog who is great with children. But I am NOT going to take advantage of him and make him deal with children sitting on him, pulling his ears and tail, and messing with his food.

can he deal with it? of course!
will he be nice about it? of course!
does he have teeth! All of them!
will he bite? he has teeth doesn't he?


DOGS ARE ANIMALS. No matter what the temperament they have the capability to use their teeth and dog communication uses A LOT of teeth. 

no matter what my dog can handle, whether it be frying them with an E-collar, dealing with extremely stressful situations in life, attacking and fighting a criminal, or getting pinched poked prodded and sat on by children. Will I subject my dog to those things JUST because they can handle it? NO

I am my dogs protector, leader, guider, and companion. I will protect my dog to make sure they have the most enjoyable life and will find success in everything they do. 

I refuse to set my dogs up to fail by making them put up with situations that could go wrong in seconds. 



I personally am not a breeder, nor do I think you are specifically taking AWAY from any business that I "have" because I have no business in selling German Shepherds because I am not breeding. I do however come from the standpoint of the person who went in to buy a german shepherd without knowing anything. And now here I am with a dog that is less than desirable and against the standard. I love my dog to death dont get me wrong. But she has quite a few holes I wish I could fill in and make her a better dog. Now I know better and I will steer clear of breeders like that. 

You are deceiving people by calling your dogs German Shepherds.

I CANNOT even tell you how many people show up to my schutzhund club with dogs that are easily comparable to yours. Who WANT their dog to bark at strangers. Who WANT to show their dogs. Who WANT and obedient dog who can retrieve and do schutzhund. 

and I wish I could show you a photograph of how DISAPPOINTED those people are when their dog has no interest in any of that. 

Those people then go on to purchase the line of dog they originally intended after further learning about the breed and what to look for. Now they have BYB pets that they keep at home, and the German Shepherds they originally wanted and doing the things they wish they could do with their BYB pets.


THIS IS WHY I have a problem with you calling your dogs German Shepherds.


Do you understand yet?


----------



## AbbyK9

My two cents, if I may.

I think German Shepherd owners and breeders are extremely lucky in that the breed's founder has extensively written about why he created the breed and what he intended to produce. We have an entire blueprint of what the breed should be. 

Max believed that form should follow function - that is, that the dogs first and foremost had the abilities to excel at all sorts of work but that the dogs also had the temperament to be good around the family, both human and other pets. Max cared about these abilities and that temperament more so than the dog's color or coat type or anything else. Ability and temperament always came first.

Max was, however, quite outspoken when it came to the size of the dogs. He believed that the dogs needed to be of medium size in order to do the work they were intended to do. He himself wrote that "giants are never nimble" and that people should not breed for larger sizes, because abilities were lost as size got bigger. 

Max's blueprint was used to establish a breed standard. The standard describes what should be the IDEAL dog in terms of size, color, temperament, ability, etc. Over the years, there have been changes to the standard - most notably, the exclusion of whites in 1933. Then coats were excluded but are now allowed back in conformation in Europe. However, I am not aware of the standard changing in regards to size since the breed has been in existence. Max intended the dogs to be of medium size. The standard still calls for the dogs to be of medium size.

So, I guess, I am wondering how the OP feels that "standards change" over time in regards to size in the German Shepherd, since that has not changed in the 100+ years the breed has been in existence.

I am also wondering, since the primary consideration in Shepherds is ability, rather than looks, how the OP tests her dogs' ability. Do they do any herding? Any other type of work?


----------



## Minnieski

4TheDawgies said:


> I CANNOT even tell you how many people show up to my schutzhund club with dogs that are easily comparable to yours. Who WANT their dog to bark at strangers. Who WANT to show their dogs. Who WANT and obedient dog who can retrieve and do schutzhund.
> 
> and I wish I could show you a photograph of how DISAPPOINTED those people are when their dog has no interest in any of that.
> 
> Those people then go on to purchase the line of dog they originally intended after further learning about the breed and what to look for. Now they have BYB pets that they keep at home, and the German Shepherds they originally wanted and doing the things they wish they could do with their BYB pets.
> 
> 
> THIS IS WHY I have a problem with you calling your dogs German Shepherds.
> 
> 
> Do you understand yet?


:thumbup:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I can see this thread going down the tubes really fast, 

Personally I think Genie has alot of guts to come on here and defend her RIGHT to breed whatever the heck she wants and most likely has a market for. 

I will post it again , while BIG is not my cup of tea, atleast she's health testing her dogs. It's more than I can say for some who come on this board looking for advice cause Fifi is preggo with an oops litter. 

If you don't like her dogs well don't buy from her. 

Talking "standard" , well I'd guess probably 90% of the dogs on this board aren't within standard. The majority of people on this board are PET PEOPLE. So I guess the ones who don't "work" their dogs don't have gsd's either.

I guess it just bothers me when people start bashing a person who seems to be upfront and honest about what they are doing, health tests, and god their dogs are BIG AND HAIRY and don't work, when the majority here have PETS themselves and don't do a darn thing but walk them everyday..

Debating is one thing, being downright rude is another.


----------



## Chicagocanine

Mrs.K said:


> Do you know how many working line dogs can't keep up because they are out of shape and people don't see the need to work on their endurance?


I don't know what a WM qualification entails (a test?), but I'm surprised as I would have expected it to be common sense that a dog testing for SAR should be properly conditioned ahead of time. Heck even a dog taking agility classes should be properly conditioned, so it seems obvious to me that a SAR should be worked to build stamina/endurance ahead of time.




4TheDawgies said:


> We have Veda. My white Shepherd, a product of back yard breeding to its finest. She has allergies, hypothyroidism, is very nervy, no off switch, high anxiety, fair elbows and fair hips.
> 
> Is bandy legged.
> this is a dog that I got when I didn't know what to look for in a German Shepherd. How many of your clients go in to buy a German Shepherd from you expecting what I have in my THIRD German Shepherd, and end up with a dog like yours. poor conformation (aww dang we can't show our dog), low drive (hard to train because the dog doesn't have drive to do things for the owner), no willing to please temperament (the dog just wants to lay on the floor now we can do search and rescue), the dog has hypo or hyperthyroidism (because you dont test for it).


Keep in mind not all dogs epitomize the standard in this way even if they are bred to it though. You can get dogs with health issues, oversized dogs, nervy dogs, dogs with poor drive or poor conformation even from breeding parents who are health tested, worked, shown, have good pedigrees and are bred to the standard. I think the people who end up with those dogs would potentially be even more disappointed because they were expecting dogs like the parents. So should they not be allowed to call their dogs German Shepherds? What are they then?
My dog would probably not make a police dog or top Schutzhund dog despite all dogs in her recent pedigree having Sch titles (mostly Sch3), so do I not have a German Shepherd either?


----------



## Linzi

I just want to ask one question as i see some of her past pup's were German/Shiloh.
What does this mean ?.This is the link.




See the title above the video.


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## Emoore

JakodaCD OA said:


> I can see this thread going down the tubes really fast,
> 
> Personally I think Genie has alot of guts to come on here and defend her RIGHT to breed whatever the heck she wants and most likely has a market for.


True. We can have 25 pages of the same argument and no minds will get changed.

I strongly, viscerally disagree with what the OP is doing, to the point it almost makes me feel ill. But she's got a lot of _cojones_ coming on here and starting a post to defend herself. Gotta admire that.


----------



## Jax08

Linzi said:


> I just want to ask one question as i see some of her past pup's were German/Shiloh.
> What does this mean ?.This is the link.
> YouTube - Long Coat German Shepherd Puppy Abe - German & Shiloh Lines
> See the title above the video.


 
It means they aren't purebred German Shepherds. Basically, really pretty mutts.


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## GennieF

Linzi said:


> I just want to ask one question as i see some of her past pup's were German/Shiloh.
> What does this mean ?.This is the link.
> YouTube - Long Coat German Shepherd Puppy Abe - German & Shiloh Lines
> See the title above the video.


Sigh, trying not to get dragged into this again, I can't invest any more time on the message board, lol, not like the old days before I had 4 kids and dogs  but someone did want me to clarify this statement so I better do it now lest someone thinks my dogs are mixed with anything else. From the beginning of this page, on page 1:



GennieF said:


> My dogs are a variation, and as terrible as some people think it is, they are 100% purebred German Shepherds and surely are related to at least some dogs on here. I can respect your opinion but do not agree. Btw, Shilohs stemmed from large GSDs, they are related to my dogs but unlike the Shilohs (whole 'nother can of worms) I can diversify my dogs bloodlines with dogs that are similar from various lines but completely unrelated.


From my FAQ, in part:
*Q: Are your dogs Shiloh Shepherds / Shiloh Shepherd Dogs?*


No, Shiloh Shepherds are a non-AKC registered breed "in development" created from a specific blend of larger German Shepherd Dogs (most originating from Shiloh Kennels) crossed with a mix known as MAW by Tina Barber. While Tina Barber may have originated the Shiloh Shepherd breed, she produced many pure AKC registered German Shepherds as well. We breed AKC registered German Shepherd Dogs. Most do have "Shiloh lines" in that parts of their pedigrees can trace back to the German Shepherd Dogs from Shiloh kennel and the AKC foundations of the Shiloh Shepherd breed who did NOT have the MAW factor. 

...

Again, while our dogs may look very similar and be indirectly related, our dogs are NOT considered Shiloh Shepherds and are 100% German Shepherd Dogs of traceable lineage. 
As a note, up until at least the early 1990s Tina Barber's dogs were AKC registered. Once the MAW factor was brought in, obviously the resulting dogs were no longer AKC German Shepherd Dogs, and around that time, Tina also changed her kennel name to Zion / New Zion. Some owners and breeders of those pure AKC dogs originating from Shiloh Kennels chose to retain their AKC paperwork when the founder and others left to form the Shiloh Shepherd registry during that time period. However, in the end, "Shiloh lines does not a Shiloh Shepherd make" and does not mean that any of the dogs in its ancestry were crossed with anything else but AKC registered German Shepherd Dogs.


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## jaggirl47

I do want to reiterate to the OP because she is talking about having all of her dogs tested cTLI. That test only shows if the dog itself has EPI. It DOES NOT show if the dog is a carrier. There is no genetic marker for this disease. You can breed 2 dogs who do not have EPI but still produce an entire litter that DOES have it.

I also looked on your website. Just as an FYI, pups are only certified clear of DM if BOTH parents test negative, not just the sire.


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## GennieF

Jax08 said:


> It means they aren't purebred German Shepherds. Basically, really pretty mutts.


Nope, read above.


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## GennieF

jaggirl47 said:


> I do want to reiterate to the OP because she is talking about having all of her dogs tested cTLI. That test only shows if the dog itself has EPI. It DOES NOT show if the dog is a carrier. There is no genetic marker for this disease. You can breed 2 dogs who do not have EPI but still produce an entire litter that DOES have it.
> 
> I also looked on your website. Just as an FYI, pups are only certified clear of DM if BOTH parents test negative, not just the sire.


Yep, regarding EPI you are correct, there is no test to determine carriers. Ot is just another test he had done as supposedly a low count indicates a possible carrier though nothing about that is confirmed so I have tried to do that with my dogs though as of now I've never had an EPI. For my current pups, BOTH PARENTS are tested as clear non-carriers of DM 

Otherwise, in instances of parents where only one dog tests clear and the other parent untested, the pups will not have degenerative myelopathy, regardless if they are carriers.


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## GennieF

Okay, said I was going to leave because I can't argue with a 20 to 1 fight, now am again. Thank you for those who posted in my defense, even if we don't see eye to eye. One last thing then, lest someone say that I have King Shepherds next and are trying to say my dogs are mixed with them instead, in some of my advertisements I do call my dogs King Sized German Shepherds, which is what some people have called their large German Shepherds in the past and most likely where the King Shepherds got their name. My dogs aren't King Shepherds, are not mixed with King Shepherds, are not registered as King Shepherds, and I'll throw in that we rarely eat at Burger King. There's a FAQ on my website regarding that as well. King Sized German Shepherds = big German Shepherds, registered King Shepherds are a different thing and can of worms. With that said, unless someone emails me frantically saying that I need to correct something as to why I am producing not only oversized dogs but that they have two heads and no tail, am respectfully bowing out again.


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## NancyJ

Ok - my two cents and it gets very frustrating. 

Her dogs are purebred
She is above the table that they are NOT bred to the standard
She makes *no* claims about their working ability - unlike many oversize breeders who want you to believe their dogs are the true working dogs - she clearly states they are pets.
She performs health tests
She sells with limited registrations
She is willing to take them back

----------

So I compare this with any number of breeders selling thin-nerved dogs that "fall within" the standard but have to be coddled through their schutzhund titles and claim they are fit for working?. Or dogs that fit within the standard but have such an exaggerated physique that THEY can't work?

Like I said - I am 100% for the working line dog for working and would have none other but it is not the dog for everyone. 

I would rather have someone with a sedate lifestyle have a sedate dog than trying to push that on a dog meant to work. 

Yes, I would prefer they call it something else but in the scope of things ..........I would prefer that the showline dogs were called something else and the Amlines as well.......I am not clear how what she is doing is worse than taking some poetic license with the standard as do many (not all - I know there are some showlines that can work) show breeders.


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## Whiteshepherds

4TheDawgies said:


> THE STANDARD is THE STANDARD because it is what depicts what makes a dog a German Shepherd. If your dogs do not fit the standard, are not bred to the standard, and the breeding dogs and produced dogs are not to the standard then you are breeding AGAINST the standard and you do NOT have German Shepherds.


I agree with some, not all, of what you've said in your posts on this thread, but this is ridiculous. There's a way to say "I think you're making a mistake breeding off standard and here's why..." and then there's an attempt to inflame. 

Why confuse the issue. A dog's breed is determined by it's bloodline. How well a dog represents the breed is determined by it's conformation, temperament etc., as dictated by the standard. Two different things. The breeder has GSD's.


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## jaggirl47

GennieF said:


> Yep, regarding EPI you are correct, there is no test to determine carriers. Ot is just another test he had done as supposedly a low count indicates a possible carrier though nothing about that is confirmed so I have tried to do that with my dogs though as of now I've never had an EPI. For my current pups, BOTH PARENTS are tested as clear non-carriers of DM
> 
> Otherwise, in instances of parents where only one dog tests clear and the other parent untested, the pups will not have degenerative myelopathy, regardless if they are carriers.


 
A low count DOES NOT indicate a possible carrier. Email Dr. Clark about it. She will tell you herself and will get back to you within 48 hours. I have emailed her several times. EPI is known to skip generations and then just pop back up when the wrong dogs down the road are bred together. That is why it is so important to fully understand the lines you are breeding, not just the current generation.

As far as DM, it states directly on your website that the SIRES are tested as DM negative so the puppies will be DM free. That info is wrong. The pups will be either clear or carriers, depending on what they are bred to. As for carriers, your pups can pass that on. Also, there is no guarantee that carriers will show no signs of DM. As far as current research shows, they have a greater chance on not showing symptoms. However, it is still possible as DM is still being studied and the studies are relatively new. So, you have straight up faulty advertising. Carriers are carriers, not DM free.


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## AbbyK9

> So I compare this with any number of breeders selling thin-nerved dogs that "fall within" the standard but have to be coddled through their schutzhund titles and claim they are fit for working?. Or dogs that fit within the standard but have such an exaggerated physique that THEY can't work?


I don't think ANY of them are what German Shepherds should be.


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## cliffson1

Once the OP indicated she they knew what they were breeding and it wasn't for working dogs, why are we engaging them. Fine!! You don't breed for working dogs....no worse than people who breed beauty dogs and don't breed for working dogs. Really, as long as they are 20 to 1 as the OP said, they can breed mules and call them German Shepherds if they want. Your not going to change people's minds; or responsibility to the breed instead of their personal likes.....soooooo let them do what they want. GoodLuck!!


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## Linzi

Gennie,sorry you had to explain this to me, i was confused by the German and Shiloh lines.
I am from England so not familiar with the Shiloh.No matter what our different view's of our breed are,we all love them.
May i add,i admire your patience and tact,your pup's look beautiful.


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## Jessiewessie99

If I want a big dog or giant dog I will get a Great Dane, Mastiff, Irish Wolfhound, and all those other big large breeds.

IMO, the OPs dogs are NOT what I consider a German Shepherd. They only LOOK like German Shepherds, BUT they do not ACT like a German Shepherd, so therefore IMO, they are NOT German Shepherds. IMO I feel they are ruining the breed. Once again that is my opinion.

If I want a German Shepherd, I will get a German Shepherd, which is a beautiful, intelligent, active, drvien, loyal, athletic, and all around great dog.


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## Doc

I think many of you that posted on this topic clearly exposed your lack of knowledge of the historical foundations of the German shepherd breed. Most of you clearly understand that one type of dog used in the creation of the german shepherd was a smaller dog that was used as a "yard" dog for the elite in Germany to protect their yard and land from peasants. This is all a fact. The dogs that are bred to perform bite work today has a large percent of the old "yard" dog genetics.
However, most of have no knowledge or choose to turn a blind eye to the other main foundational dog of this breed- the Swabian/ Wurtember shepherd dog. These dogs were larger, thick boned, slow to bite, and very calm dogs. Larger/over the standard German shepherd dogs have a larger percent of the Swabian genetics in them. So to post that German shepherds are suppose to be a certain size is next to impossible when you consider the genetics that make up this breed.
If one is able to look past their personal bias and blindness, and study the genetics of the foundational dogs used to create this breed - you'll come to the understanding that restricting the breed to a narrow range only contributed to the genetic bottleneck we are experiencing today. Restrictions on coat color and length has also led this breed down the path of genetic extinction.
For those who focus only on a certain genetic type of German shepherd in their breeding program such as solely "working line" (which has acquired a rather narrow definition in today's dogs) dogs that adhere to the written standard are contributing to the demise rather quickly. JMO


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## Mrs.K

> I CANNOT even tell you how many people show up to my schutzhund club with dogs that are easily comparable to yours. Who WANT their dog to bark at strangers. Who WANT to show their dogs. Who WANT and obedient dog who can retrieve and do schutzhund.


Then do the effing research before you go out and buy a dog. You can't pin that on every breeder out there. That is the buyers fault. 

If they did the same research they did on a car, they wouldn't have a dog that doesn't have the drive. 

The issue is, they go out, buy whatever they can find and THEN decide "Oh, let's do Schutzhund." and you see the same for SAR and anywhere else. 

Well... not every dog can do every job and if you know that you want to do Schutzhund with your dog than DO THE RESEARCH and GET A DOG THAT FITS THE BILL! 

It's a major pet peeve of mine. I have somebody like that in my team. He wants to do SAR but doesn't have the dogs to do it, yet he feels entitled to do it and tells everybody that he doesn't care how much it costs to make them SAR dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA

*thoughts*

:thumbup: mrs k


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## CassandGunnar

JakodaCD OA said:


> :thumbup: mrs k


Same here Mrs K, :thumbup:

I guess that would be like buying a couple of Westie's and then deciding to get into herding.


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## wildo

Mrs.K said:


> The issue is, they go out, buy whatever they can find and THEN decide "Oh, let's do Schutzhund."
> 
> It's a major pet peeve of mine.


...While I don't disagree with what you are saying, certainly you realize that some people don't realize they want to get into dog sports until AFTER they get the dog. I suspect that is not at all uncommon, especially with such a utilitarian breed as the GSD. I know that's _exactly_ how we go into agility. I didn't even know what agility was when I got my GSD.

(Granted- I would probably stop doing agility if I found my dog was not suited. Or at least, I wouldn't push very hard.)


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## Emoore

wildo said:


> ...While I don't disagree with what you are saying, certainly you realize that some people don't realize they want to get into dog sports until AFTER they get the dog. I suspect that is not at all uncommon, especially with such a utilitarian breed as the GSD.


Which is why the breed needs to _stay_ utilitarian.


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## Germanshepherdlova

GennieF, Ash is beautiful! He looks very healthy, much healthier than some dogs pics that I have seen where the owner thinks keeping their dog looking anorexic will surely keep him from developing hip dysplasia.If you look at the dog on the GSD American Kennel Club website, he does not have his ribs sticking out, this idea is just madness.

I have not read through the other posts on here and I don't think I will. A German Shepherd with papers, is a GSD and it doesn't matter what size they are. It doesn't decrease their intelligence. It doesn't make him less of a dog. I will private message you for some information, because when I am ready for another GSD, I definitely will consider one of your pups.


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## Mrs.K

Emoore said:


> Which is why the breed needs to _stay_ utilitarian.


It will always stay utilitarian. There will always be working line breeders like Wildhaus, Blackthorn or Johnson Haus out there. 

The point is. IF you know already what you want to do, don't get the next best dog but do your research!

And if you get interested and your dog can't do it. In Schutzhund it doesn't matter if your dog is cut out or not, you can still do it for fun and learn for your next dog, but SAR is a totally different topic. It's a serious job and if there is one thing I can't stand it's people that think their dog can do it while they can't and they do it for all the wrong reasons.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

gennie your dogs look like what i remember from the 60's and seventies. The big puppy reminds me of Prince who was born in 1969 and was a bruiser. i know he slept with me. i've been told by multple trainers and others in the dog world that if i wanted a GSD I should instead go with a Shiloh due to temperment. Daisy who is aproduct of a mother whose mother was to have never been bred and a father who was sold as a pet but was bred is reactive.I will always like the big GSD's ,ill never do schutzhund but i want a dog who can go camping ,hiking ,swimming etc but more importantly bred for temperment.Looking at Max's book I like the pictures of the siegers from the 1920's and thirties but my picture is Taffy, 29 in.tall,Prince 29 and jumper the little guy 28.the boys had great temperment.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A German Shepherd with papers, is a GSD and it doesn't matter what size they are.


Correct...BUT that doesn't mean they all should be bred does it.


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## Samba

There are breeds who do not allow a dog to be registered as the breed unless its meets certain criteria. The protectors of these breeds realize a breed is not preserved by pedigree alone. I think they have some good ideas.


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## Jessiewessie99

Samba said:


> There are breeds who do not allow a dog to be registered as the breed unless its meets certain criteria. The protectors of these breeds realize a breed is not preserved by pedigree alone. I think they have some good ideas.


Do they do that in Germany for the GSD? Or is that just to be able to breed the dog? I believe they have to get a Sch 1.


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## jaggirl47

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Do they do that in Germany for the GSD? Or is that just to be able to breed the dog? I believe they have to get a Sch 1.


In order to actually breed the dog.

Our GSD's parent organization requires the dog to have a minimum of a BH and SchH1 or HGH title, show rating of good or higher, have earned the AD (unless HGH titled), be a minimum of 2 years, have hip certs in order to even be breed surveyed. The dog must then pass the breed survey, which includes hight, weight, temperment, nerves (gun test), protection, standing and movement eval, to even be bred.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Correct...BUT that doesn't mean they all should be bred does it.


People come in all different heights, and weights and so do GSD's.
If they are AKC and they are healthy who is to say that they shouldn't be bred? Just because you don't like the bigger lines doesn't mean that many people wouldn't love to add one of these beautiful dogs to their family. Many, many people actually prefer the larger GSD's. The AKC recognizes GSD's by their bloodline, not by their size, regardless of certain people wishing to discriminate against these beautiful large German Shepherds. This is a pointless argument because big Shepherd's are allowed to be bred, they will be bred, and they are pure bred. I personally like the large lines, and I will always own one from the large lines, regardless of other people's OPINIONS.

This reminds me of when the chocolate labs were discriminated against because many breeders felt that they were not in the "breed standard." They felt that they were an unacceptable mutation, so they would drown the brown puppies. Discrimination is what this is in both cases and insanity. I personally will not sit back quietly when I read people saying this type of bologna.


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## Jessiewessie99

jaggirl47 said:


> In order to actually breed the dog.
> 
> Our GSD's parent organization requires the dog to have a minimum of a BH and SchH1 or HGH title, show rating of good or higher, have earned the AD (unless HGH titled), be a minimum of 2 years, have hip certs in order to even be breed surveyed. The dog must then pass the breed survey, which includes hight, weight, temperment, nerves (gun test), protection, standing and movement eval, to even be bred.


Thank you for the explaining.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> People come in all different heights, and weights and so do GSD's.
> If they are AKC and they are healthy who is to say that they shouldn't be bred? Just because you don't like the bigger lines doesn't mean that many people wouldn't love to add one of these beautiful dogs to their family. Many, many people actually prefer the larger GSD's. The AKC recognizes GSD's by their bloodline, not by their size, regardless of certain people wishing to discriminate against these beautiful large German Shepherds. This is a pointless argument because big Shepherd's are allowed to be bred, they will be bred, and they are pure bred. I personally like the large lines, and I will always own one from the large lines, regardless of other people's OPINIONS.
> 
> This reminds me of when the chocolate labs were discriminated against because many breeders felt that they were not in the "breed standard." They felt that they were an unacceptable mutation, so they would drown the brown puppies. Discrimination is what this is in both cases and insanity. I personally will not sit back quietly when I read people saying this type of bologna.


Do you know what the breed standard is? AKC papers mean the dog is registered, that is all. AKC does not mean the dogs are of good quality.

Breeding for dogs much larger than the standard is different than breeding standard dogs and producing some pups that grow larger than standard size.

Anyone is allowed to breed because there are no standards here in the US. That doesn't make it right.

Here is what makes a GSD breedworthy
http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breeding_regulations.htm

That doesn't mean if the dog doesn't fit it should be culled, just that it should not be bred.

If you like what the OP produces then you do not like German Shepherds


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## JPF

4TheDawgies said:


> GennieF if you loved German Shepherds so much you would breed to the standard.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, you may like what you have, but what you have is no longer considered a German Shepherd because it is now extremely off from the standard. You have an oversized dog, with a long coat, similar coloration, pricked ears, different conformation and structure, and the temperament of a St. Bernard.
> 
> German Shepherds are and should still be WORKING dogs through and through. Their conformation, structure, drives, temperament etc. are all aimed towards the ability to work. We LIKE that our dogs have working ability. I want a dog that can go all day with me. That can herd sheep, bite the bad guy, play fetch while we sit under a shaded tree, supervise my children, catch the rabbits eating our garden, guard our home at night, protect my car and myself. For the more intense dogs I like that we have German Shepherds who are even comparable to malinois and Dutchies who can kick A$$ out there in the police work and bring home the bad guys and find the drugs.
> 
> Those dogs are saving lives, working hard, and are some really truely amazing dogs to have.
> 
> 
> I have NO problems with someone trying to create a new breed. Its how my favorite breeds were created. The problem I do have with your breeding is you call them German Shepherds. Thats why everyone is so compelled to write in your posts. You do not have German Shepherds because you have been breeding against the standard for generations now.
> 
> I have no problem with the lady who created Shiloh Shepherds because she recognized her dogs are different and has a different picture in mind for what she wants her dogs to be.
> 
> I can respect that your dogs are cute, they are good with kids, and you like them and so do your puppy buyers. But you need to begin considering the idea that your dogs are not German Shepherds.
> 
> I am glad you are honest about the facts of your dogs. I like that you are health testing. You are on the right track really you are.
> 
> But what are you doing to prove your dogs have a temperament that can withstand stress. Whose to say your dogs aren't nervy or fear biters. A good breeder proves their stock in whatever they can that fits their breed the best. I personally do not trust just anyones opinions. Sorry been burned too much for that.
> 
> 
> A reputable German Shepherd breeder, breeding to the standard who works and shows their dogs, both in working lines and show lines both have this much in common: they produce pets in every litter.
> 
> That being said, even in the working lines there will be some puppies who don't have the drive, or enough natural aggression to do the type of work some of the pick of the litter puppies could. So they go to very loving homes who want a German Shepherd. In the case of those puppies, they have great homes, they are still very much German Shepherds but they are not the top quality that should be considered for breeding thats all. It doesn't mean they are not German Shepherds.
> 
> With how many dogs from reputable breeders are turning out to be pets, sometimes half the litter, sometimes even the whole litter because the parents just aren't good producers. Then why do we need people who breed specifically for dumbed down drives and temperaments?
> We don't, theres just no reason for it.
> 
> There are TOO MANY DOGS IN SHELTERS.
> 
> If someone wants a german shepherd but wants it to sit on their couch all day, then they shouldn't be getting a German Shepherd, in fact they shouldn't get a dog at all. They want a cosmetically pretty dog who will sit on their couch, be soft and look cute. Thats not what a dog is. A dogs place in the animal kingdom is an animal (canid) that travels all day, hunts for its food, lives with a pack, and has specific physical appearances, drives, temperaments, and abilities as well as structure to adhere to the demands their environment requires.
> 
> If someone wants a dog to look cute and sit on the couch, get a small dog. But even those dogs are maniacs who run around and get neurotic with lack of exercise.
> 
> If some form of a wolf does not adhere to the requirements of the wild, they die. The wonderful rules of mother nature.
> 
> 
> 
> So all that being said. If you want to produce very large dogs, with pricked ears, some tan and black with long fur, that like to just lay around with you guys and be love bugs and couches. Then BY ALL MEANS. produce what you want and need.
> However I ask that you realize that is not what a German Shepherd is, is becoming, or should be.


best response so far...exactly how i feel


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## Jessiewessie99

JPF said:


> best response so far...exactly how i feel


I agree!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Do you know what the breed standard is? AKC papers mean the dog is registered, that is all. AKC does not mean the dogs are of good quality.
> 
> Breeding for dogs much larger than the standard is different than breeding standard dogs and producing some pups that grow larger than standard size.
> 
> Anyone is allowed to breed because there are no standards here in the US. That doesn't make it right.


 AKC papers mean that a dog is registered as a PURE BRED. Many pups even born within the breed standard weight, and height still don't meet every description in the breed standard. That is why these dogs not meeting the standard are not in the show ring, they do not compete, they are pets. Yes, (gasp) a GSD as a pet? Who would have considered that?


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## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> People come in all different heights, and weights and so do GSD's.
> If they are AKC and they are healthy who is to say that they shouldn't be bred? Just because you don't like the bigger lines doesn't mean that many people wouldn't love to add one of these beautiful dogs to their family. Many, many people actually prefer the larger GSD's. The AKC recognizes GSD's by their bloodline, not by their size, regardless of certain people wishing to discriminate against these beautiful large German Shepherds. This is a pointless argument because big Shepherd's are allowed to be bred, they will be bred, and they are pure bred. I personally like the large lines, and I will always own one from the large lines, regardless of other people's OPINIONS.
> 
> This reminds me of when the chocolate labs were discriminated against because many breeders felt that they were not in the "breed standard." They felt that they were an unacceptable mutation, so they would drown the brown puppies. Discrimination is what this is in both cases and insanity. I personally will not sit back quietly when I read people saying this type of bologna.


This is straight from the AKC website:
*Size, Proportion, Substance*
The desired _height_ for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.
German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club

This is from the USA website:
*General Appearance*
The German Shepherd Dog is medium sized, slightly longer than tall, strong and well muscled, bone is dry, the whole dog presenting a picture of firmness.

*Important Measurements*
Height at the withers for males: 60 - 65 cm, bitches: 55 - 60 cm. Length of torso exceeds height at the withers by 10 - 17%.
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard

Just because a dog is registered does not mean the dog is breed worthy. Even when breeders strive to breed to the standard, larger dogs do happen. The difference is that reputable breeders are not breeding specifically for dogs outside of the standard. You may not like it but standards were made for a reason.


----------



## jaggirl47

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Thank you for the explaining.


 
No prob.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

jaggirl47 said:


> No prob.


Do you know why they don't do that here in the states? I think would actually help.


----------



## krystyne73

sagelfn said:


> If you like what the OP produces then you do not like German Shepherds


That just sounds stupid. Some of you sound nuts actually and completely self absorbed. It's a dog...a GSD that is bigger than the norm. Get over it. It's not going to end your little dog world. If you are that upset please, please get :help:


----------



## jaggirl47

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Do you know why they don't do that here in the states? I think would actually help.


 
The AKC is a money hungry organization. If they had the breeding restrictions that the GSD parent organization has, they would lose all of the money for indescriminate breedings and litter registrations.


----------



## jaggirl47

krystyne73 said:


> That just sounds stupid. Some of you sound nuts actually and completely self absorbed. It's a dog...a GSD that is bigger than the norm. Get over it. It's not going to end your little dog world. If you are that upset please, please get :help:


It does not sound stupid at all. The breed standards are there for a reason. Anuything deliberately done outside of the standard further destroys the breed. Indescriminate breeding is also one of the main reasons we have so many health issues in our breed.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

jaggirl47 said:


> This is straight from the AKC website:
> *Size, Proportion, Substance*
> The desired _height_ for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.
> German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club
> 
> This is from the USA website:
> *General Appearance*
> The German Shepherd Dog is medium sized, slightly longer than tall, strong and well muscled, bone is dry, the whole dog presenting a picture of firmness.
> 
> *Important Measurements*
> Height at the withers for males: 60 - 65 cm, bitches: 55 - 60 cm. Length of torso exceeds height at the withers by 10 - 17%.
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
> 
> Just because a dog is registered does not mean the dog is breed worthy. Even when breeders strive to breed to the standard, larger dogs do happen. The difference is that reputable breeders are not breeding specifically for dogs outside of the standard. You may not like it but standards were made for a reason.


I am perfectly aware of what the breed description of the GSD is. I do not need you to post information that I already know. And you may not like it but it is legal to breed large GSD's, there is a demand for them, and they will continue to be bred. Your argument in the United States is pointless because it is going to continue. Very few dogs that are bred in our country perfectly meet every description in the breed standard. Germans do not consider any American GSD's to be worth much. They neuter all dogs that are not within the breed standard, including dogs that do not have the correct temperament, show fear, etc. Is your dog/dogs from American lines? Do you think that your dog is "perfect?" 

I know that mine isn't perfect, and I had him neutered but not because of his size. I love my big GSD. He has just as much GSD in his blood as any of your 
so called "perfect" dogs, and I not for a second am going to allow anyone to insult my baby. Nor this breeder who is breeding healthy, beautiful GSD's. Whoever thinks that they have the perfect American GSD, go ahead and keep throwing stones. But don't expect me to let you say that my dog should never have been born, because I'd be damned first.


----------



## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *AKC papers mean that a dog is registered as a PURE BRED.* Many pups even born within the breed standard weight, and height still don't meet every description in the breed standard. That is why these dogs not meeting the standard are not in the show ring, they do not compete, they are pets. Yes, (gasp) a GSD as a pet? Who would have considered that?


Right that is what I said, it means the dogs are registered. It doesn't mean the dogs are purebred. The AKC does not physically check the dogs you are registering. There are people who lie. 

You are right, there are pet quality pups in litters of dogs that meet breeding requirements. Those "pet quality" dogs are called that because they are not meant to be bred. How are you confused?


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

krystyne73 said:


> That just sounds stupid. Some of you sound nuts actually and completely self absorbed. It's a dog...a GSD that is bigger than the norm. Get over it. It's not going to end your little dog world. If you are that upset please, please get :help:


Thank you, these posts that I am reading are complete insanity, offensive, extremely arrogant, and insulting. They ran the original OP off of here with this nonsense, and their "pack" like behavior-all teaming up against her.


----------



## Mrs.K

jaggirl47 said:


> In order to actually breed the dog.
> 
> Our GSD's parent organization requires the dog to have a minimum of a BH and SchH1 or HGH title, show rating of good or higher, have earned the AD (unless HGH titled), be a minimum of 2 years, have hip certs in order to even be breed surveyed. The dog must then pass the breed survey, which includes hight, weight, temperment, nerves (gun test), protection, standing and movement eval, to even be bred.


Yes, very true but even with those surveys, it doesn't mean that you have a quality dog. There is a heck of a lot corruption going on that nobody wants to talk about. However, at least there is something in place and without all that you can't get the pink papers.


----------



## sagelfn

krystyne73 said:


> That just sounds stupid. Some of you sound nuts actually and completely self absorbed. It's a dog...a GSD that is bigger than the norm. Get over it. It's not going to end your little dog world. If you are that upset please, please get :help:


The Op is not just breeding large dogs. The OP is also breeding dogs that in terms of temperament are not GSDs.

The breed standard is what keeps a GSD and GSD and not a Golden. If you don't care about the breed then why are you here?


----------



## Mrs.K

lets keep it civil. It's been civil so far, it doesn't have to go out of hand


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Right that is what I said, it means the dogs are registered. It doesn't mean the dogs are purebred. The AKC does not physically check the dogs you are registering. There are people who lie.
> 
> You are right, there are pet quality pups in litters of dogs that meet breeding requirements. Those "pet quality" dogs are called that because they are not meant to be bred. How are you confused?


I could ask you the same, where are you lost at? You don't like the AKC, then move to Germany-take your dog with you-and they will neuter him as soon as you get off the plane, if you haven't done so already.


----------



## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I know that mine isn't perfect, and I had him neutered but not because of his size. *I love my big GSD. He has just as much GSD in his blood as any of your *
> *so called "perfect" dogs, and I not for a second am going to allow anyone to insult my baby.* Nor this breeder who is breeding healthy, beautiful GSD's. Whoever thinks that they have the perfect American GSD, go ahead and keep throwing stones. But don't expect me to let you say that my dog should never have been born, because I'd be damned first.


You are not reading posts correctly. NO ONE is saying these dogs are bad. We are saying breeding them is bad because they are not breedworthy. They do not represent what the breed should be. There is nothing wrong with that. 

Read..
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/152635-good-dogs-non-reputable-breeders.html


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am perfectly aware of what the breed description of the GSD is. I do not need you to post information that I already know. And you may not like it but it is legal to breed large GSD's, there is a demand for them, and they will continue to be bred. Your argument in the United States is pointless because it is going to continue. Very few dogs that are bred in our country perfectly meet every description in the breed standard. Germans do not consider any American GSD's to be worth much. They neuter all dogs that are not within the breed standard, including dogs that do not have the correct temperament, show fear, etc. Is your dog/dogs from American lines? Do you think that your dog is "perfect?"
> 
> I know that mine isn't perfect, and I had him neutered but not because of his size. I love my big GSD. He has just as much GSD in his blood as any of your
> so called "perfect" dogs, and I not for a second am going to allow anyone to insult my baby. Nor this breeder who is breeding healthy, beautiful GSD's. Whoever thinks that they have the perfect American GSD, go ahead and keep throwing stones. But don't expect me to let you say that my dog should never have been born, because I'd be damned first.


First off no one said your dog shouldn't have been born or is ugly or insulted your dog. Everyone thinks their dog is perfect, but that is not the reason they should be bred. No one said it was illegal to breed oversized GSDs, they just said they shouldn't be bred.

And I am not sure they neuter every dog that is not within the breed standard. I believe in most European countries they are against spaying/neutering. It is not pointless to have what they have in Germany because it may help with alot of the issues we have the breed.


----------



## krystyne73

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Thank you, these posts that I am reading are complete insanity, offensive, extremely arrogant, and insulting. They ran the original OP off of here with this nonsense, and their "pack" like behavior-all teaming up against her.


I do understand how some of them are thinking the way they are, but it's how crazy it is said that makes it so unbelievable. This thread gives me the chills actually. Sorry but it sounds oddly similar to a German dictator. My grandmother was in a concentration camp and she always talked about how "they" talked about the master race....
I am actually getting off this forum permanently because of this talk. I came here because I love my pets not to watch people taking good care of their dogs be attacked.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jessiewessie99 said:


> First off no one said your dog shouldn't have been born or is ugly or insulted your dog. Everyone thinks their dog is perfect, but that is not the reason they should be bred. No one said it was illegal to breed oversized GSDs, they just said they shouldn't be bred.
> 
> And I am not sure they neuter every dog that is not within the breed standard. I believe in most European countries they are against spaying/neutering. It is not pointless to have what they have in Germany because it may help with alot of the issues we have the breed.


Yes, usually we only spay and neuter for medical reasons. We do not necessarily believe to put a perfectly healthy dog through a spaying process if there is no need to do it.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Thank you, these posts that I am reading are complete insanity, offensive, extremely arrogant, and insulting. They ran the original OP off of here with this nonsense, and their "pack" like behavior-all teaming up against her.


I actually found that none of the posts insulting, arrogant, or offensive.


----------



## Mrs.K

krystyne73 said:


> I do understand how some of them are thinking they way they are but it is how crazy it is said that makes it so unbelievable. This thread gives me the chills actually. Sorry but it sounds oddly similar to a German dictator. My grandmother was in a concentration camp and she always talked about how "they" talked about the master race....
> I am actually getting off this forum permanently because of this talk. I came here because I love my pets not to watch people taking good care of their dogs be attacked.


It doesn't matter what breed forum you are on, you will always find those that will stick to the standard and defend the standard towards those that try to breed outside the standard. 

I don't think it's comparable to Hitler. :help:


----------



## Jessiewessie99

krystyne73 said:


> I do understand how some of them are thinking they way they are but it is how crazy it is said that makes it so unbelievable. This thread gives me the chills actually. Sorry but it sounds oddly similar to a German dictator. My grandmother was in a concentration camp and she always talked about how "they" talked about the master race....
> I am actually getting off this forum permanently because of this talk. I came here because I love my pets not to watch people taking good care of their dogs be attacked.


But no one is insulting anyone's dog or is getting attacked because they are caring for the dog. I actually saw many people were happy the OP health tested her dogs. I am sorry you feel so attacked that you have to leave because we want to protect the breed we love and cherish.

And to compare this to Hitler is rather insulting and is not right.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I actually found that none of the posts insulting, arrogant, or offensive.


Of course you didn't because you are a participant in it.


----------



## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am perfectly aware of what the breed description of the GSD is. I do not need you to post information that I already know. And you may not like it but it is legal to breed large GSD's, there is a demand for them, and they will continue to be bred. Your argument in the United States is pointless because it is going to continue. Very few dogs that are bred in our country perfectly meet every description in the breed standard. Germans do not consider any American GSD's to be worth much. They neuter all dogs that are not within the breed standard, including dogs that do not have the correct temperament, show fear, etc. Is your dog/dogs from American lines? Do you think that your dog is "perfect?"
> 
> I know that mine isn't perfect, and I had him neutered but not because of his size. I love my big GSD. He has just as much GSD in his blood as any of your
> so called "perfect" dogs, and I not for a second am going to allow anyone to insult my baby. Nor this breeder who is breeding healthy, beautiful GSD's. Whoever thinks that they have the perfect American GSD, go ahead and keep throwing stones. But don't expect me to let you say that my dog should never have been born, because I'd be damned first.


I know my male is far from perfect. He is oversized, has several genetic illnesses, horrible confirmation, is scared to death of loud noises, and is a complete couch potato and has always been one. He has absolutely no drive whatsoever. He is basically a shih-tzu in GSD skin with an AKC pedigree. He is also neutered. He is not to ever be bred due to the facts listed above. Oh, and he is a mix of WGSL, ASL, and A pet lines. Do I love him? Of course I do. He is my baby. Will I ever breed him? Heck no! He is so far from a GSD it isn't funny.
My female I bought from a good breeder. She has excellent lines. She is 23" tall and her current weight is 54lbs. She is currently in training for SchH, will be getting herding tests in 2 weeks, and is attending her first confirmation show in July. She has a heck of alot of prey drive, ball drive through the roof, is extremely fast and agile, is alert and focused, absolutely loves people (including my 2 young kids), and shows a great deal of promise. She is also a family pet, sleeps in my bedroom in her kennel next to me, and spends the rest of the time with the family in the rest of the house. Will she ever be bred? I don't know. She is too young for her xrays, too young for her peformance tests, would need to go through and successfully pass (not barely, but very successfully) a breed survey. Even then, unless I found the perfect male to breed her to, there is a strong chance she will not be bred. However, she shows everything you look for when describing a GSD.
It also isn't about a "perfect GSD" or throwing stones. It is about purposefully breeding away from the standards.


----------



## sagelfn

krystyne73 said:


> I do understand how some of them are thinking they way they are but it is how crazy it is said that makes it so unbelievable. This thread gives me the chills actually. Sorry but it sounds oddly similar to a German dictator. My grandmother was in a concentration camp and she always talked about how "they" talked about the master race....
> I am actually getting off this forum permanently because of this talk. I came here because I love my pets not to watch people taking good care of their dogs be attacked.


Before you leave, could you please give me a post # or quote a post where someone insulted a pet owner because their dog was not to the breed standard? I have not seen any of it. We are talking about breeding. MY dog does not fit the standard in temperament or conformation. I LOVE him. I also love the breed. There is no shame that he isn't breedworthy.

Comparing us to Nazi's is so not alright. :thumbsdown:


----------



## Mrs.K

Jessiewessie99 said:


> But no one is insulting anyone's dog or is getting attacked because they are caring for the dog. I actually saw many people were happy the OP health tested her dogs.


Exactly, and I appreciated the OP's honesty, at least she is upfront and honest about her dogs, I can't say that about quite a few GSD Showline breeders from Germany. 

I may not agree with her breeding outside the standard but I have to respect her right to do it and I respect her for being honest about it.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, usually we only spay and neuter for medical reasons. We do not necessarily believe to put a perfectly healthy dog through a spaying process if there is no need to do it.


Not true, in Germany dogs that are not within the breed standard are NEUTERED. This is not a lie. I have heard this from more than one source.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Of course you didn't because you are a participant in it.


I stated MY OPINION and did not bash anyone else for theirs.


----------



## krystyne73

Mrs.K said:


> It doesn't matter what breed forum you are on, you will always find those that will stick to the standard and defend the standard towards those that try to breed outside the standard.


I do understand that (passion for the breed). But to say " if you like that look then you don't like GSD" sounds silly. I am not promoting breeding, trust me, just protesting the bashing of an innocent person. To me, telling this person they are breeding mutts is rude.


----------



## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Not true, in Germany dogs that are not within the breed standard are NEUTERED. This is not a lie. I have heard this from more than one source.


 
Umm, the person you are arguing with on this is German, from Germany. Look at her location.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Mrs.K said:


> Exactly, and I appreciated the OP's honesty, at least she is upfront and honest about her dogs, I can't say that about quite a few GSD Showline breeders from Germany.
> 
> I may not agree with her breeding outside the standard but I have to respect her right to do it and I respect her for being honest about it.


I agree. She had alot of guts to do that. I appreciate honesty.


----------



## Mrs.K

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Not true, in Germany dogs that are not within the breed standard are NEUTERED. This is not a lie. I have heard this from more than one source.



If they do it, they do it voluntarily and not because it's the law or a rule or because the mother organization says so. To be honest, many dogs, outside the standard still go through the breed surveys and are being bred. Those are usually the dogs that get the KKL2. 

However, again, usually we do not spay and neuter unless it is for health reason, that doesn't mean that there are not people out there that spay and neuter their pets for nor reason whatsoever.


----------



## jaggirl47

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I stated MY OPINION and did not bash anyone else for theirs.


 
You were also asking questions to be educated during this post which is a good thing.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

krystyne73 said:


> I do understand how some of them are thinking the way they are, but it's how crazy it is said that makes it so unbelievable. This thread gives me the chills actually. Sorry but it sounds oddly similar to a German dictator. My grandmother was in a concentration camp and she always talked about how "they" talked about the master race....
> I am actually getting off this forum permanently because of this talk. I came here because I love my pets not to watch people taking good care of their dogs be attacked.


 I also came here because I love my boy, and thought that here I would find a group of GSD lovers, good advice, and share stories. Sometimes I do not approve of what I read here, these posts for example. However, I wish that you wouldn't leave because they do love their dogs, and do have good advice many times. It is just certain topics that are very touchy here, such as weight and size.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

jaggirl47 said:


> Umm, the person you are arguing with on this is German, from Germany. Look at her location.


I already knew that, but so are the people who gave me the information that I stand by.


----------



## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I also came here because I love my boy, and thought that here I would find a group of GSD lovers, good advice, and share stories. Sometimes I do not approve of what I read here, these posts for example. However, I wish that you wouldn't leave because they do love their dogs, and do have good advice many times. It is just certain topics that are very touchy here, such as weight and size.


 
That's where you have it wrong. It's not the weight and size. It is the purposeful breeding outside of the standard and indiscriminate breeding.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Mrs. K, by the way I think that you are awesome. You speak to others with respect, courtesy, and never condescendingly. Thank you for being a truly nice person.


----------



## Mrs.K

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I already knew that, but so are the people who gave me the information that I stand by.


As with everything else, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In my area and the people I know, they don't neuter or spay unless it is for medical reasons and so do many other German people.

The proof is out there, just look through the German Working Line Dogs, they get taller and taller and that is because dogs from outside the standards are being gekoered and bred. 

The problem with oversized dogs is everywhere, however they are trying to put a stop on it. But many purebred dogs will not be spayed or neutered. 

The people you know, may have a different opinion on it. But the trend in Germany is that people do not spay or neuter as actively as in the US. If they tell you otherwise, it's a lie. It's a flat out lie if they say that every breeder spays and neuters their dog that is outside the standard. Especially if they have a darn good dog on their hand. They are still getting them through the survey...


----------



## sagelfn

krystyne73 said:


> I do understand that (passion for the breed). But to say " if you like that look then you don't like GSD" sounds silly. I am not promoting breeding, trust me, just protesting the bashing of an innocent person. To me, telling this person they are breeding mutts is rude.


I didn't say the OP was breeding mutts. I said the OP was not breeding GSDs because her dogs do not come close to meeting the breed standard in temperament or conformation. She is basically breeding the opposite of a GSD while trying to maintain the general look of a GSD.

Temperament of a GSD is the most important thing. So if you say you like friendly, calm, couch potatoes then I'm sorry but you don't want to own a GSD because a GSD should never be that. If you find that rude I apologize.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

krystyne, before you make up your mind about leaving, I'd like to point out to you that you can block certain people. I am about to utilize that option myself with certain people. I am not leaving this forum because there are some great people here, who are exactly what I had anticipated finding when I joined this forum.


----------



## Mrs.K

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Mrs. K, by the way I think that you are awesome. You speak to others with respect, courtesy, and never condescendingly. Thank you for being a truly nice person.


than you have not read a lot of my posts. I can lose my temper just as much as anybody else and there are times where I have lost it on here as well. I am not always a nice person. Believe me.


----------



## krystyne73

I think there are people here for the love of the dog and there are people here for the love of the breed. My fault for even reading this thread lol 

again sorry as I stated before about the German dictator, its been burning in my head for hours...sorry my grandmother did a number on me ha ha

and I wasn't quoting you Sagelfn... not sure who said it, might have been the one thread connected to this one...who knows. I just want every one to love everybody. hahaha


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Mrs.K said:


> than you have not read a lot of my posts. I can lose my temper just as much as anybody else and there are times where I have lost it on here as well. I am not always a nice person. Believe me.


I guess I have not read all your posts then, the post that I have read from you were courteous. I am sorry to hear that.


----------



## krystyne73

Germanshepherdlova said:


> krystyne, before you make up your mind about leaving, I'd like to point out to you that you can block certain people. I am about to utilize that option myself with certain people. I am not leaving this forum because there are some great people here, who are exactly what I had anticipated finding when I joined this forum.


oh its not that. I just get stuck reading all the negativity when I should be doing other things. I like reading for valuable information, so I'll stick to books. This is the only forum I am on, I try to stay offline as much as possible.


----------



## Mrs.K

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I guess I have not read all your posts then, the post that I have read from you were courteous. I am sorry to hear that.


It can happen to any of us and none of us is innocent. We've all done at least one thing in our life we are not proud of, right? Doesn't matter if online or in real life. My problem is that I am sometimes a little too straight forward and say it how it is. Some people can deal with it, others perceive it as rude and offensive so I am trying to not do it all the time.


----------



## krystyne73

sagelfn said:


> Temperament of a GSD is the most important thing. So if you say you like friendly, calm, couch potatoes then I'm sorry but you don't want to own a GSD because a GSD should never be that. If you find that rude I apologize.


I wasn't quoting you I don't think, but no I have 2 GSD so obviously I like the psychotic type too lol
but I had an oversized GSD as a teen and he was just as active. Maybe he wasn't as fast as my 68lb Sasha but he had the endurance to keep going.
My husband has MS and he wants a quiet, calm dog though. Thanks!
Time to sleep.....


----------



## Jessiewessie99

BTW, my dogs are not "perfect". Molly is from a BYB/oops litter, she has fear issues, she is skittish and has a curled tail. She is not AKC registered, she has an unknown pedigree, her hips are not OFA she has anything that may harm any offspring if she were to have any. Tanner is also not AKC registered, has an unknown pedigree,is outside the standard, has low drives, has a curled tail, he also came from a shelter, his hips are also not OFA, and I do not if he has anything that may harm his offspring if he were every to have any.

Both dogs are spayed/neutered, and none will ever bred, or should be.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Mrs.K said:


> It can happen to any of us and none of us is innocent. We've all done at least one thing in our life we are not proud of, right? Doesn't matter if online or in real life. My problem is that I am sometimes a little too straight forward and say it how it is. Some people can deal with it, others perceive it as rude and offensive so I am trying to not do it all the time.


Very true. I try too. I just get so upset because my Brutus is a big boy. I do not like people insinuating that he is inferior, because he is larger than the breed standard. I read an earlier post, although I am too lazy to read back and find out who posted it that said that the OP was breeding mutts because they are above the standard size. This is what set me off.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

jaggirl47 said:


> You were also asking questions to be educated during this post which is a good thing.


Yep, and trying to learn all I can.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I stated MY OPINION and did not bash anyone else for theirs.


I stand corrected, you did not insult anyone nor their GSD. I confused your posts with someone elses. I apologize.


----------



## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Very true. I try too. I just get so upset because my Brutus is a big boy. I do not like people insinuating that he is inferior, because he is larger than the breed standard. I read an earlier post, although I am too lazy to read back and find out who posted it that said that the OP was breeding mutts because they are above the standard size. This is what set me off.


 
No one is insinuating your boy is inferior. Do you plan to purposefully breed him to have out of standard pups? My male is over standard too. No one on here has ever made me feel like crap about that. He will also never be bred.
As far as the post you are talking about...it isn't a mutt because the dogs are large. The dog Ash was called a mutt because the breeder's videos stated he was from Shiloh Shepherd lines, which is a mutt.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Very true. I try too. I just get so upset because my Brutus is a big boy. I do not like people insinuating that he is inferior, because he is larger than the breed standard. I read an earlier post, although I am too lazy to read back and find out who posted it that said that the OP was breeding mutts because they are above the standard size. This is what set me off.


No one is insulting your boy. He is very handsome. Even the best breeders get dogs outside the standard. I do not think the OP is breeding mutts, she is just breeding outside the standard.

The most important thing at the end of the day is that we all love our dogs.


----------



## jaggirl47

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I stand corrected, you did not insult anyone nor their GSD. I confused your posts with someone elses. I apologize.


It is not that the GSD's are being bashed. It is purposeful breeding outside of the standard.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I stand corrected, you did not insult anyone nor their GSD. I confused your posts with someone elses. I apologize.


Its ok, lot of people were posting at the same time, so its easy to get confused.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

Originally Posted by *sagelfn* 
Temperament of a GSD is the most important thing. So if you say you like friendly, calm, couch potatoes then I'm sorry but you don't want to own a GSD because a GSD should never be that. If you find that rude I apologize.

My 115 pound GSD is aloft, and wary of strangers. He is not calm, he definitely isn't a couch potato, he is very energetic, has a great amount of drive. Not all big German Shepherds are couch potatoes. I know that the OP stated something about that with her puppies, but not all breeders that breed large dogs are trying to change the GSD's temperament.


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## sagelfn

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Very true. I try too. I just get so upset because my Brutus is a big boy. I do not like people insinuating that he is inferior, because he is larger than the breed standard. I read an earlier post, although I am too lazy to read back and find out who posted it that said that the OP was breeding mutts because they are above the standard size. This is what set me off.


I'm just wondering because I do not want to offend you.

Does saying your dog is not breedworthy offend you? Is that what you mean when you say people think he is inferior?

My dog is not breedworthy. He is a bad example of a GSD. Yes, he has some awesome qualities. I love him more than anything, but he also has some bad qualities. It doesn't make me love him any less. My dog is neutered. He was never planned to be bred. Knowing his faults I would be ticked if any dog like him were bred.

I don't have a problem with anyone calling out his faults. I do it, so I guess I was not aware that someone else could be offended since it doesn't bother me. I am sorry.


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## jaggirl47

I just want to post this. Please read the entire link as well:

One last comment. The GSD is a working breed, perhaps the very best. While there is nothing wrong with a dog serving as a family pet, this is not its primary function. Breeding GSDs to accommodate the minimal demands of suburban life is like manufacturing a BMW with the engine of a sewing machine. It will certainly look good and give its owner's ego a boost, but the essence is gone. If a pet owner is not willing to provide the training and exercise this breed requires, there are many other breeds, including several listed here, which would be more appropriate. If you cannot cope with a working breed, please do not buy a German Shepherd Dog. Breeders who are unwilling to promote their dogs' working capacities should also find another breed to produce. Breeding away the working ability of a GSD is like wiping the smile off the Mona Lisa - the beauty is still there, but the greatness is gone.
Breed Types & Related Families


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> I'm just wondering because I do not want to offend you.
> 
> Does saying your dog is not breedworthy offend you? Is that what you mean when you say people think he is inferior?
> 
> My dog is not breedworthy. He is a bad example of a GSD. Yes, he has some awesome qualities. I love him more than anything, but he also has some bad qualities. It doesn't make me love him any less. My dog is neutered. He was never planned to be bred. Knowing his faults I would be ticked if any dog like him were bred.
> 
> I don't have a problem with anyone calling out his faults. I do it, so I guess I was not aware that someone else could be offended since it doesn't bother me. I am sorry.


It's ok.
No, I am not offended by that because I know that my dog isn't breed worthy. What offends me is for a person to refer to dogs that are larger than the standard as a mutt. I even read a post in this forum where the person said, if the dog didn't fit into this description then he wasn't a GSD, he was just a dog. This is the type of comments that I referred to as arrogant, and offensive.

I neutered my dog last month right after he turned two, because I don't know if you have read other forums where I have mentioned that he was very dominant and aggressive when he was a puppy. We worked very hard with him, and he has come a long way, but I'd never agree to breeding a dog with his temperament. I was approached by BYB all the time, I am so relieved to get these money hungry people off my back by just saying he can't perform the act anymore, so do not approach me about it anymore.


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## jaggirl47

Linzi said:


> I just want to ask one question as i see some of her past pup's were German/Shiloh.
> What does this mean ?.This is the link.
> YouTube - Long Coat German Shepherd Puppy Abe - German & Shiloh Lines
> See the title above the video.


 
This was the first post for the mutt comment


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## Germanshepherdlova

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No one is insulting your boy. He is very handsome. Even the best breeders get dogs outside the standard. I do not think the OP is breeding mutts, she is just breeding outside the standard.
> 
> The most important thing at the end of the day is that we all love our dogs.


Thank you and you are right, that is why we are on this forum because we love them.


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## jaggirl47

Jax08 said:


> It means they aren't purebred German Shepherds. Basically, really pretty mutts.


 
This is the actual mutt comment.

Has nothing to do with the actual size of the dogs.


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## Germanshepherdlova

4TheDawgies said:


> .
> 
> .......You are deceiving people by calling your dogs German Shepherds.
> 
> I CANNOT even tell you how many people show up to my schutzhund club with dogs that are easily comparable to yours. Who WANT their dog to bark at strangers. Who WANT to show their dogs. Who WANT and obedient dog who can retrieve and do schutzhund.
> 
> and I wish I could show you a photograph of how DISAPPOINTED those people are when their dog has no interest in any of that.
> 
> Those people then go on to purchase the line of dog they originally intended after further learning about the breed and what to look for. Now they have BYB pets that they keep at home, and the German Shepherds they originally wanted and doing the things they wish they could do with their BYB pets.
> 
> 
> THIS IS WHY I have a problem with you calling your dogs German Shepherds.
> 
> 
> Do you understand yet?


This is the last half of one of the posts that I was referring to.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Here is another example.

[Originally Posted by 4TheDawgies 
GennieF if you loved German Shepherds so much you would breed to the standard. 

The fact of the matter is, you may like what you have, but what you have is no longer considered a German Shepherd because it is now extremely off from the standard. You have an oversized dog, with a long coat, similar coloration, pricked ears, different conformation and structure, and the temperament of a St. Bernard.


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## jaggirl47

jaggirl47 said:


> I just want to post this. Please read the entire link as well:
> 
> One last comment. The GSD is a working breed, perhaps the very best. While there is nothing wrong with a dog serving as a family pet, this is not its primary function. Breeding GSDs to accommodate the minimal demands of suburban life is like manufacturing a BMW with the engine of a sewing machine. It will certainly look good and give its owner's ego a boost, but the essence is gone. If a pet owner is not willing to provide the training and exercise this breed requires, there are many other breeds, including several listed here, which would be more appropriate. If you cannot cope with a working breed, please do not buy a German Shepherd Dog. Breeders who are unwilling to promote their dogs' working capacities should also find another breed to produce. Breeding away the working ability of a GSD is like wiping the smile off the Mona Lisa - the beauty is still there, but the greatness is gone.
> Breed Types & Related Families


 
Read this post and you will understand what those other 2 posts meant.


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## Whiteshepherds

I think maybe the "it's not a German Shepherd" outbursts were a little over the top. 
Everyone has a right to express their opinion but face it...it doesn't matter how many times you say they aren't, the dogs are GSD's. 



Emoore said:


> There's nothing wrong with producing large, calm, non-drive-having, laid-back family pets that are happy and healthy, *just don't blow smoke by calling them German Shepherd Dogs*.





jaggirl47 said:


> *A GSD is a working dog. Anything else is just a dog, but not a GSD.*





4TheDawgies said:


> THE STANDARD is THE STANDARD because it is what depicts what makes a dog a German Shepherd. *If your dogs do not fit the standard, are not bred to the standard, and the breeding dogs and produced dogs are not to the standard then you are breeding AGAINST the standard and you do NOT have German Shepherds.
> *





Jessiewessie99 said:


> IMO, the OPs dogs are NOT what I consider a German Shepherd. They only LOOK like German Shepherds, BUT they do not ACT like a German Shepherd, *so therefore IMO, they are NOT German Shepherds.* IMO I feel they are ruining the breed. Once again that is my opinion.





4TheDawgies said:


> *You are deceiving people by calling your dogs German Shepherds.
> * ...snip...
> THIS IS WHY I have a problem with you calling your dogs German Shepherds.


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## Chicagocanine

jaggirl47 said:


> It does not sound stupid at all. The breed standards are there for a reason. Anuything deliberately done outside of the standard further destroys the breed. Indescriminate breeding is also one of the main reasons we have so many health issues in our breed.


Actually I think at least some of the issues may be due to the opposite-- too tightly restricted breeding, with no outside blood brought in. Narrowing the gene pool too far is never a good thing.


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## Dainerra

GennieF said:


> I'm sorry but to say that people shouldn't want ideal family companions because the German Shepherd should remain a working breed is quite an airy statement.


I just wanted to respond to this one statement!!
My working line GSD IS an ideal family companion. He is exactly what a GSD should be and that's why I purchased him. If I wanted a dog like you are describing, I would have purchased a lab


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## GermanShepherds6800

How many objectors are doing so because they feel their personal dogs are being attacked for existing here? We are not saying your dogs are terrible. We are glad you love and care for them. Think about how many dogs like your are dumped by people less dedicated than you when they find out their gsd is bred like this and that is not the way a gsd should be? How many are dumped without telling the breeder even if the breeder does offer to take them back because most buyers will not tell a breeder when they dump a dog and do not tell the breeder they are going to do it. This person is damaging more than just the size of our beloved breed. Ad to her others that are doing it and get the whole picture and the problems headed for especially in these times when many are loosing their homes. Right now even well bred litters are not selling and well bred dogs are even being dumped. Do any of you objecting to how this breeder is being treated actively do rescue? Do any of you have to decide what gsds in rescue get euthed and who gets to live? If not than perhaps you cannot understand the frustration and anger. This breeder offers a health garantee only for 2 years and is that not a red flag to you? Most genetic health issues do not show up until after that. 

For those of you saying these dogs remind you of dogs in the 70's or old fashioned gsds. I worked dogs in that era and these gsds are not them. As far as for old fashioned these dogs are too big for even that. I think most of you felt the gsd you grew up with was huge was well because you were smaller perhaps? Those 70's american gsds were awesome dogs and I agree on that but these dogs are not it. Remember those noble faces? Remember the intelligence and drive but calm demeanor? Drive does not need to be bred out of them in order to have a calm gsd. That is proper breeding to have both qualities in the same dog. 

Please do not allow the love for your oversized gsd pets to cloud your opinion what this woman is doing. No one is attacking your pets or your right to love them.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Im not ,my dogs are by no means examples of breed srandards and my point is only that in my area trainers regularly people away from the breed due to temperment mostly but sometimes health. I know my dogs are GSD's one has papers and the side action at a trot of the dogs i grew up with,both have pret drive, daisy is high in dominance drive and cab ne aloof in public,I started rereading Max Von Stephwitz book about a week ago. Max did want a medium sized dog. However his designs are interpeted by the show lines thus the differences between the champions from Longworth kennels in the forties ,then the 60's and Lance .MHO there have been an ongoing interpetation of the standard thus the two lines. Talking with people who breed Italiano Spinioni's the difference between the show line and the field line is pretty much non existent,Labs english to American ,English calmer ,smaller, American bigger,more drive(nothing compared to GSD's) butpeople buy dogs for multiple reasons,work.pet sport showbut I bet that most breeders sell the most pups to people who want a GSD as a pet cause they think they are handsome or like me grew up with one,


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## GermanShepherds6800

It is ok to breed them for pet excuse for lower drives so the owners can pretty much own a gsd but be lazy in ownership so they want dogs they do not have to physically and mentally tire out is the reasoning? That is no longer a gsd. 

I feel to many dogs are being bred amped upon drive to make poor trainers look better and I agree that is just as harmful as taking the drive out of the pets and leaving a ghost of the dog you say you grew up with a loved. 

A well bred gsd who gets proper work and exercise should be neither lazy nor bouncing off the walls and should have an off switch. As much as I disagree with breeding them to not want to do anything I also feel it is against the dog to breed them overly sharp and amped on drive.

This is not a breed for lazy people.


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## GermanShepherds6800

ooohhhhhh perhaps it is a ploy for sale boost on another forum check it out:

German Shepherd Forum :: View topic - Opinion of Pioneer German Shepherds in PA?


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## Franksmom

This thread is like touching something that is hot, when someone tells you it's hot but you still have to touch it. I know by reading it, it's going to make me mad at some of the comments but I still have to come back to read it. 
Guess it's because my boy is from one of the "oversized breeders", not this one, but he still is very much a GSD in personality and has a great temperment. I do not plan to breed him but hate the thought that a good GSD could be out there and not bred purely on size alone, which is the way some of the posters sound on this thread. 
I admire this breeder for health testing and being up front with what she breeds. 
But it's still up to each person getting a GSD to research the lines and pick the line that will fit what they want to do, if she is selling these pups to people that they are exactly what the people want then I'm glad those people do not end up with a working line or show line GSD because then there would be an increase in that dog ending up in a rescue or worse.


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't think atleast for me anyhow, that I'm saying it's 'ok' to breed for couch potatoes, what I'm saying is, this breeder is but a drop in the bucket of what IS out there, and by all accounts is at the very least, health testing her dogs and is upfront about what she's doing.

There are so many out there breeding dogs, selling them cheap, no health testing, nada nada nada, all about money or un educated, know nothing, lie, that this one breeder is much better than most.

I don't want, nor do I have a lazy dog, if I wanted lazy and no brains, I'd get something else (won't name so as not to offend). 

I DO remember the dogs from the late 70's/ 80's atleast, and your right, mine was noble, smart, calm, yet driven and a great ambassador of the breed , I definately don't see many of what I had back then.


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## NancyJ

Franksmom said:


> This thread is like touching something that is hot, when someone tells you it's hot but you still have to touch it. I know by reading it, it's going to make me mad at some of the comments but I still have to come back to read it. .


I was kind of thinking more along the lines of a slow motion train wreck.


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## JakodaCD OA

german>>maybe maybe not,,I guess I would respond to threads if someone was ripping my breeding program or my dog apart. I'm sure you would to..


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## LaRen616

My GSD is oversized.

I did not know about the standard or byb when I got him.

His breeder is purposely breeding very large dogs, both females and males being 100+ pounds. 

My GSD is a large, overly friendly, low energy, big baby, drama king. He is more like a Lab than a GSD. Sometimes it's nice that he is that way, but most of the time it really sucks.  

I still love him more than anything but I would never buy an oversized, ridiculously friendly, Lab in GSD clothing again.

Next year I am getting a real GSD


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## GermanShepherds6800

I am the original one that defended she was here to defend her program, until that thread I found where she went to a place that they discussed her breeding program over two years ago and she is just now posting on it? 

She is health testing yes but how good is that when she only carries a 2 year limit on it?

Also read on the old thread the parts where the previous advertising said health testing but it really needs to be checked for fine print or for full info. I do not have time this morning but it would be awesome if someone double checked the OFA site on the dogs. Many can say OFA'd but be glossing over the ratings and always a breeders claims of testing should be double checked against the OFA website if they are considering purchasing.


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## GSDGunner

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> ooohhhhhh perhaps it is a ploy for sale boost on another forum check it out:
> 
> German Shepherd Forum :: View topic - Opinion of Pioneer German Shepherds in PA?


That thread was over 2 years old. I think the only reason this breeder brought it up (she was not the original OP of the thread) was because of this forum and the original thread that started it all.
She must have looked up forums to see if her kennel name was mentioned anywhere and went on the defense.


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## GermanShepherds6800

true, could have done a search.


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## GSDGunner

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> true, could have done a search.


More than likely she googled her kennel name and there it was.


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## NancyJ

I did go back though - actually it looks like a lot but why of the three dogs that have had OFA has only one an elbow result? Elbows are a major problem these days. Can't pull up the third dog on the data base either. 

I agree she "has a right" and I am not sure how she is ruining the breed because nobody with working dogs will breed to her lines. 

With all the dogs needed for detection work these days I dont think there is going to be a shortage of WL GSDs anytime soon.....even with the numbers of malinois there are still a lot of GSDs.....to me where people can ruin the breed is by changing the standards / changing acceptance criteria (such as making schutzhund tests easier to pass) etc.


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## Germanshepherdlova

LaRen616 said:


> My GSD is oversized.
> 
> I did not know about the standard or byb when I got him.
> 
> His breeder is purposely breeding very large dogs, both females and males being 100+ pounds.
> 
> My GSD is a large, overly friendly, low energy, big baby, drama king. He is more like a Lab than a GSD. Sometimes it's nice that he is that way, but most of the time it really sucks.
> 
> I still love him more than anything but I would never buy an oversized, ridiculously friendly, Lab in GSD clothing again.
> 
> 
> Next year I am getting a real GSD


I have a Lab, I got him thinking that he would be this docile, friendly guy. I couldn't have been more wrong, he barks at any strangers approaching the house, he growls sometimes at strangers when we are out walking, he has dog aggression, he does respect us, never has been anything but gentle and respectful toward us. But boy was I in for a surprise when I rescued this one year old lab. And boy is my lab energetic, and he can jump just about anything. What a surprise for us.


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## Mrs.K

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> ooohhhhhh perhaps it is a ploy for sale boost on another forum check it out:
> 
> German Shepherd Forum :: View topic - Opinion of Pioneer German Shepherds in PA?



Let's not cross the line between a heated debate and bullying.


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## Andaka

Time to close up shop. This topic has been hashed and rehashed. Thanks for playing nice.

Daphne -- Moderator


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