# Teaching Blinds - Video



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Just a silly little video of my girl, Indi.. I watch it and am almost in disbelief at how much I've been able to accomplish with her since I've had her. She is generally speaking, a VERY high drive, out of control, reckless dog (the broken teeth dog!) with very little respect for anyone or anything. 

This was her 3rd session ever of being introduced to the blinds and I could NOT be happer.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Very good. GREAT song, my favorite.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Looks good! Indi is coming along very nicely! So so glad to see that!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Looks good. Quick question. Did you already know what size she favors or did you pick it for her? Another thing to do: Clothespin her toy inside the blind on the far edge from the side she comes around. This will encourage her to always look into a blind rather than just run around it.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Thanks Guys! 

Jason - she's hoping to make her big, goofy brother proud, lol.

Hunter - I will definitely try that with her toy, great tip! I don't normally "teach" blinds this way, but she is such a hectic dog that I figured trying to get her to understand the basic concept of it in a low stimulation environment would be to her benefit. I theoretically plan to start introducing a helper in them/fly outs as soon as she's confidently going around them in a much larger area (in regards to actually checking the blinds.. a big pet peeve is dogs who very obviously have just been taught to run around things, they aren't actually looking for anyone).

Also, to answer your question, she hasn't really shown that she wanted to go to one side or the other, I just pick the left side because it's what I'm used to and what all my other dogs do.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Throw her toy at the base of a fence or wall or something. Send her straight in to do it. Record what side she turns. Do it 10 times or so and a preference should emerge. Thats her side.

I wouldn't have a helper in there until the concept is really understood by her. One way I realized my dogs really understood the concept of going around the blinds, is when we are doing OB or protection work and they get their reward and are released, they go run the nearest blind anyway.

The other thing I'd do early on, is when she comes around the first blind, call her all the way to a front position, and then send again to the next blind. My pet peeves are dogs that don't look in the blinds, and dogs that don't give a crap what the handler is doing after the initial command. I want my dogs to recall all the way to me if I so choose. So long as they look at me on the recall and begin diverting towards me instead of the next blind, I resume the blind search.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ike was taught how to run the blinds with helpers. Never ever any toy in the blind, hanging or otherwise. Interesting thing about Ike is once he believes that there is going to be a helper in the blind, he will believe it ALWAYS. He is not a dog that will try to second guess you or play the "I wonder where you hid the helper" game with you. So if he doesn't find a helper in blind #1, then he thinks "the helper MUST be blind #2", etc. etc. 

Just something to keep in mind with his sister.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jason L said:


> Ike was taught how to run the blinds with helpers. Never ever any toy in the blind, hanging or otherwise. Interesting thing about Ike is once he believes that there is going to be a helper in the blind, he will believe it ALWAYS. He is not a dog that will try to second guess you or play the "I wonder where you hid the helper" game with you. So if he doesn't find a helper in blind #1, then he thinks "the helper MUST be blind #2", etc. etc.
> 
> Just something to keep in mind with his sister.


The only trouble with that method, is you gotta have a helper on hand


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> The other thing I'd do early on, is when she comes around the first blind, call her all the way to a front position, and then send again to the next blind. My pet peeves are dogs that don't look in the blinds, and dogs that don't give a crap what the handler is doing after the initial command. I want my dogs to recall all the way to me if I so choose. So long as they look at me on the recall and begin diverting towards me instead of the next blind, I resume the blind search.


I agree, though I don't care as much about looking in the blind (I like it but don't spend forever trying to get it if my dog's not doing it). I want to be able to send my dog to *any* blind, not just run the zig-zag on autopilot. I do introduce as an obedience game with a toy but never put the toy in the blind. The toy only ever comes from *me*. If they want to play with the toy they have to go around that blind and come back to me. I just start at the blind and then back up further and further. The default is that they return to me and platz unless I direct them to another blind.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I agree, though I don't care as much about looking in the blind (I like it but don't spend forever trying to get it if my dog's not doing it). I want to be able to send my dog to *any* blind, not just run the zig-zag on autopilot. I do introduce as an obedience game with a toy but never put the toy in the blind. The toy only ever comes from *me*. If they want to play with the toy they have to go around that blind and come back to me. I just start at the blind and then back up further and further. The default is that they return to me and platz unless I direct them to another blind.


I should elaborate... I put a toy in the blind initially, but I also have a second toy when they recall. Later the toy becomes random, and then very rarely in the blind... but I always have a toy. And I give the toy I have with my hand in the same motion and position as it would be for the next blind search... so whether I give a toy, or send to the next blind, I look the same


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Jason L said:


> Ike was taught how to run the blinds with helpers. Never ever any toy in the blind, hanging or otherwise. Interesting thing about Ike is once he believes that there is going to be a helper in the blind, he will believe it ALWAYS. He is not a dog that will try to second guess you or play the "I wonder where you hid the helper" game with you. So if he doesn't find a helper in blind #1, then he thinks "the helper MUST be blind #2", etc. etc.
> 
> Just something to keep in mind with his sister.



That is how I've always taught my other dogs, how I've recently taught Bacardi, etc. but with her, for some reason it seemed like if I could make it a bit less hectic for her so she could think with a little more of a clear head and at least establish the basic concept, it would be easier to then move to helpers after.

I'd imagine if I got her when she was a puppy, things might have been quite different. But alas, I've had to do a lot of things like teach her to out off a toy without conflict (so I actually CAN reward her), how to heel (which isn't even close to being solid yet), she barely knew how to sit, still doesn't know a down, etc. I am often reminded how much easier it is to get dogs like her when they're young and know nothing vs. when they're an adult, pig-headed and know nothing, lol.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I do introduce as an obedience game with a toy but never put the toy in the blind. The toy only ever comes from *me*. If they want to play with the toy they have to go around that blind and come back to me. I just start at the blind and then back up further and further. The default is that they return to me and platz unless I direct them to another blind.



This is how I do anything that I'm teaching my dogs as well, and had never previously thought about or considered putting the toy IN the blind... I know a lot of people do that, but since my dogs work off markers, I think that might be rather counter productive. Also, it was a LOT of work to get her to start bringing her toy back to me instead of running around like an idiot playing keep away, and now that she's smashing it into me all the time, I don't know if giving her "freebie" rewards out of the blind would be good for her either.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> The other thing I'd do early on, is when she comes around the first blind, call her all the way to a front position, and then send again to the next blind. My pet peeves are dogs that don't look in the blinds, and dogs that don't give a crap what the handler is doing after the initial command. I want my dogs to recall all the way to me if I so choose. So long as they look at me on the recall and begin diverting towards me instead of the next blind, I resume the blind search.



That is a pet peeve of mine as well, and is something I've just started doing with my Malinois. I taught her to run blinds with helpers, and now that she's doing it reliably, I've started demanding a little more from her. I've started doing blinds with her as an obedience/reward from me exercise now and have started calling her to a front before sending her around the next one. I'll reincorporate helpers after she's solidly performing that behavior without their presence.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

The blind search in a schutzhund trial isnt about looking for someone. Its about demonstrating control. It doesnt matter that the dog knows where the helper is, what matters is the dog goes to where the handler directs it to go. Keeping focus on the handler through out the exercise depends on the reward system as the blinds are taught.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

mareg said:


> The blind search in a schutzhund trial isnt about looking for someone. Its about demonstrating control. It doesnt matter that the dog knows where the helper is, what matters is the dog goes to where the handler directs it to go.


I will actually have to disagree with this statement. While I do believe a certain element of the blind search should be about control and direction, I WANT my dog looking for someone, not just running around objects because I tell them to. To me, the blind search is in the protection phase of a trial for a reason. It is supposed to be representative of a dog searching for a man. Perhaps that's too much of an "old school" mind set, but once upon a time, that is what Schutzhund was about.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

The majority of the dogs know the helper is in 6 when they are in a trial. 

The helper has been in 6 for a long, long time (old school). If it were primarily about looking for a bad guy they would alternate blinds which would be easier for the dog. 

What is important is that the dog, probably knowing where the "bad guy" is, can do a directed "search" all the way down the field. Then switch over and work through aggression showing power and intensity after all of the control work coming down the field. 

I like the dog looking up and checking each blind as it goes down the field also but I realize it is looking for a ball. Dogs have great peripheral vision no need to look up or even in when they go past a blind....unless you have a helper that can levitate...... but then you could see his head above the blind. Even though I like it I still realize it is smoke and mirrors.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

BritneyP said:


> I will actually have to disagree with this statement. While I do believe a certain element of the blind search should be about control and direction, I WANT my dog looking for someone, not just running around objects because I tell them to. To me, the blind search is in the protection phase of a trial for a reason. It is supposed to be representative of a dog searching for a man. Perhaps that's too much of an "old school" mind set, but once upon a time, that is what Schutzhund was about.


I agree, Karlo doesn't run blinds to run around and object or to find a ball. He runs them to find the helper. And half the time blows off the blinds to get to the hot one. I have to work on this big time, and I know it is about obedience as well. He needs to take direction from me, which is very difficult when he's in that level of drive! I'd love to have use of a training field with no one there just to train this over and over and over.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

mareg said:


> I like the dog looking up and checking each blind as it goes down the field also but I realize it is looking for a ball. Dogs have great peripheral vision no need to look up or even in when they go past a blind....unless you have a helper that can levitate...... but then you could see his head above the blind. Even though I like it I still realize it is smoke and mirrors.


I don't ever hang anything inside my blinds, so my dogs would have no reason to look up for anything.. the only thing that goes in the blinds are helpers. Even since "back in the day", people have been training using a variable reward system and alternating what blinds a helper will be in, often having multiple helpers in blinds when someone comes out to run all six of them. This builds speed and intensity in the searching, and in my opinion, also contributes to keeper dogs tighter to the blinds when running them. 

I agree there needs to be a certain element of control, but I work on that separately. I teach my dogs that there can be a helper in ANY blind, and that every blind is just as important to the one they eventually perform the bark and hold in.

No smoke and mirrors in the way my dogs are taught to run blinds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I used to think it was only correct for the dog to not just look in but pause in each blind (like how a dog rounds the hot blind, *knowing* the man is there). Now I just plain don't care. I've not seen people be penalized for a dog running a fast blind search going tight around each blind and not pausing to check. I would *like* the dog to believe every blind is HOT, but honestly I don't care about it enough to spend a ton of time training it that way. On the flip side, I would be mortified if I put a helper in, say, blind 3 and my dog ran past him, lol.

I introduce the blind search as an obedience game with the ball. However that doesn't mean my dogs are running for balls in protection. That's ridiculous. Even if a dog is doing the same behavior he knows when we're playing around and when we're doing protection. Just because we do a long down in obedience doesn't mean the dog is only thinking about earning his toy when we put the dog in a down for the escape. With both my current dogs, I trained the exercise of running around and object and back to me with a ball, but when I took the exercise to protection and a helper was involved, you bet both dogs messed up a few times! You can certainly introduce the concept with toys during obedience and not have to worry about your dog coming out for protection thinking he's playing a game for a ball. Maybe I'm going about it way wrong but I give my dogs a lot more credit than that. When we're ready to run blinds in protection (and I mean more than just going around the 5 to the 6, but running three or more) there is always a learning curve even when the dog could previously run any combination of blinds for 10 minutes straight during obedience. Both times I've had to re-teach it a bit once helpers enter the picture, but I feel like my dogs did have an advantage because they had a basic understanding of the exercise carrying over from obedience, even though their heads are now in a totally different frame of mind.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

I never said you hang anything inside blinds. I said that when I see a dog look up into a blind on a search that I suspect the person taught that with a ball since a dog has great peripheral vision and doesnt have to see a face to know someone is in a blind.

If a dog has any trial experience it knows where the helper is 99% of the time. You just happen to have the dog that falls into the 1%.

You may be right, control may not be the reason for a blind search.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That's where my training failed. The hot blind nutshell game was too much too soon, and I didn't instill the control into it beforehand. But when I only had a few minutes of field time a week to train it, made it too rushed as well so it wasn't fair to my dog.
I need to make some blinds to work on this, can't afford to buy them.
This is my plan:
DIY Mini Schutzhund Blinds - YouTube


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

great video! I also start my blinds in obedience first at a young age with puppies- we start just running cones through clicker training. I don't train a "side" though as I personally don't think is necessary. I also do agility though so my dogs always learn to turn any direction I ask. With the blinds, I teach them to "enter" the blind from the farthest distance away which makes them exit closest to me. I think this keeps the dog very very tight around the blind. So far, my dogs always transfer the blinds in obedience to protection work very quickly, entering and exiting the blind in the same manner that I trained them. My baby (5 months) is running 2 blinds now and choosing the correct direction to enter and exit. He thinks it is fantastic fun!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You don't need mini-blinds, a dog can be sent to/over/around anything. I trained Pan using a camp chair and stool, and Nikon with a huge cardboard box. I use "go 'round" as my command for going out and around obstacles and then later on I just slur that into my "voran" for a blind search. Blinds are nice if available but not really worth purchasing or waiting to train the exercise with an actual blind.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

But a dog that already knows the drills yet needs proofing needs to see it, because a helper just may be in that blind(in a dogs mind). 
That is where the drive/obedience problem arises. A dog taught to go round objects without the reward bite is already foundationally set.
A dog taught to run to hot blinds just see's a blind and gets jiggy, ramped up. That's where the obedience comes in, in my case. I wish I'd taught it earlier without the helper as a reward.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why not do it now? You can always go between obedience and protection. Pan actually started learning blinds with a blind and a helper, then we did it during obedience (mainly out of boredom/lack of anything else to work on at the time), then put it back into protection, and now it could go either way.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, Karlo knows the difference running around my blue spruces in my yard and coming to me vs running blinds. I'll do it tomorrow at training(w/blinds) with a line on him this time! And ball reward each time back...it is all I'm going to work on, the main reason for going up there!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

One of the things I drill in at home is not just being directed TO the blind but they must return to me. Even for the SchH1 it's pretty easy to send a dog around blind 5 and have them book to blind 6 but when you start adding in more blinds that's when it gets really complicated and tends to fall apart if the dog has no concept of actually taking direction repeatedly. I proofed Nikon with three obstacles setup in a large triangle and would send him in totally random sequences. When we do it in obedience the rule is they come back to me and platz unless given another command. I also put the dog in a platz in random places, let them break, and then direct them at random (so I don't have physical control of the dog at the start but have to proof control).


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> You don't need mini-blinds, a dog can be sent to/over/around anything. I trained Pan using a camp chair and stool, and Nikon with a huge cardboard box. I use "go 'round" as my command for going out and around obstacles and then later on I just slur that into my "voran" for a blind search. Blinds are nice if available but not really worth purchasing or waiting to train the exercise with an actual blind.


I taught Kastle on a traffic cone and he can now do a blind at a full field - one blind, we haven't upped the ante yet. He is not doing protection yet. He seemed to generalize the idea well. In fact, I used so many things teaching him to go around that, when in doubt, he goes around and comes back to me. I like that a lot. 



onyx'girl said:


> Well, Karlo knows the difference running around my blue spruces in my yard and coming to me vs running blinds. I'll do it tomorrow at training(w/blinds) with a line on him this time! And ball reward each time back...it is all I'm going to work on, the main reason for going up there!


Is he clear at home where you can send him to any tree/object and back to you, in any order? Are you sure the ball will be a big enough reward with helpers present to get him back to you?



Liesje said:


> One of the things I drill in at home is not just being directed TO the blind but they must return to me.


I like this and I'm doing the same thing. Right now, Kastle is learning one blind, reward. We'll add blind two shortly and he will need to come to me/platz or front when I tell him. I want the obedience drilled into his head before-hand.

Ike was taught with hot blinds (I believe) and he is very consistent about going around each blind in turn. He understands the "rules" are to go around them all - in training, in trial he obviously has not had to do them all yet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Originally Posted by onyx'girl * 
Well, Karlo knows the difference running around my blue spruces in my yard and coming to me vs running blinds. I'll do it tomorrow at training(w/blinds) with a line on him this time! And ball reward each time back...it is all I'm going to work on, the main reason for going up there!


> *FG167*
> Is he clear at home where you can send him to any tree/object and back to you, in any order? Are you sure the ball will be a big enough reward with helpers present to get him back to you?


He is clear when we are training at home, but put him in protection mode on a training field with blinds and he gets too ramped up.
But hopefully by the time we get back outside on a training field he'll know the drill and his obedience on this exercise will be solid. 
I worked on it today w/ 2 blinds and it went fine he was very obedient and the ball reward was great....hopefully it transfers over to the outdoor field.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

BritneyP said:


> Just a silly little video of my girl, Indi.. I watch it and am almost in disbelief at how much I've been able to accomplish with her since I've had her. She is generally speaking, a VERY high drive, out of control, reckless dog (the broken teeth dog!) with very little respect for anyone or anything.
> 
> This was her 3rd session ever of being introduced to the blinds and I could NOT be happer.
> 
> Indi - 3rd session w/ blinds - 2.06.12 - YouTube


Good training, keep up the good work.


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