# Vaccinations today have me worried after reviewing owner opinions on this forum



## GSD_NH (Mar 2, 2014)

This morning I brought in my 14 week old GSD Sascha for her third round of shots. I didn't do any research about bundling shots before I left as I was under the impression that the visit would only include an exam and the distemper shot. While I was there, the vet recommended distemper, Lyme, rabies, and lepto. Three weeks ago, she received three antigens (distemper, bordetella, and another one that I can't remember (maybe lepto?)) and was back to running around by 4 PM so I didn't feel as though four antigens would cause any more symptoms than the discomfort she experienced before. Not having any means to perform research on the spot and trusting their judgement, I agreed. Once I got home, I decided to check what other people typically administered at this time. It seems as though it is a general rule to never give rabies and distemper on the same day. She is a little sore at the moment but no more so than after the second set of shots and was enthusiastic about lunch. My question is what are the risks of administering all of these vaccines at once? Are there any symptoms besides hives, a swollen face, bright red ears, and vomiting that would warrant a trip back to the vet? How many hours or days into the future could an adverse reaction to the vaccines present itself? Are there any long term health risks?

I clearly see now that I am going to have to take a much more proactive role in Sascha's healthcare but I am still left wondering why the vet would bundle so many vaccines at once if there were health risks. Surely, even from a business standpoint, the $90 they made off me isn't worth the bad press someone could spread if their dog had complications and needed urgent care or died especially when the shots could have been split into two different visits.


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Generally speaking, unless they have the separate vaccines for each disease (some companies have single product vaccines), they have a combo vaccine for the basics (Distemper, Parvo, Adenovirus, Influenza, Herpes with or without either Corona or Lepto). The lepto is given separately at times, and needs to be boosted yearly because it is a bacteria that has been deactivated, which tends to cause a less "dramatic" response in the immune system against it. Rabies is similar. The virus is so deadly that they give it in a killed variety so that the chances of it becoming a live virus (which the majority of your basic vaccines are modified live vaccines) are very rare. The body will not generally have a strong reaction to a dead bacteria, so they have to add in an adjuvent in order to get the body to respond and recognize the bacteria or virus as a bad foreign object. Lymes is caused by a bacteria, so it is also going to come generally in a killed form.

Each animal is a different creature. Some will have the ability to handle multiple pathogens at once (because let's be honest everyone, your body technically HAS to deal with multiple pathogens on a daily basis) and others may have an immune system that cannot handle it or get a more drastic response to it (allergic reactions). Vaccines have to go through testing just like anything else, so they have tested the multiple combinations and seen what kind of response they generally give at once. All vaccines are uniform in the dose size, so you have to look at your lifestyle and individual dog in order to decide what is best for it.

My dogs have always gotten multiple shots at once and I have not seen an allergic reaction in them. I work in vet clinics, so I -have- seen many different types of reactions to vaccines, but they are actually vastly less than they were a few years ago! The main reason for this is because they have been changing up the adjuvents used in the vaccines to make them safer, and get less of an overreaction by the body. 

It is common for dogs to feel a little icky after getting vaccines because their bodies are responding to the foreign pathogen as it is supposed to. They generally are a little lethargic, possibly sore at the injection site and they could potentially have a low grade fever. It typically last just 24 hrs, but the soreness could be something that lasts a bit longer. Ever had a tetanus vaccine? I swear it took 3 days the last time for my muscle to stop aching like it was, and man did it ever hurt! So a mild "reaction" would always be expected.

A true anaphylactic reaction in a dog will have them vomiting within about 15-20 minutes of the vaccines being given. It is pretty rare to see that sort of reaction. The more common one is to see hives develop, their muzzle and around the eyes get swollen, start itching a good deal. It is more of a secondary allergic reaction, and if you had your pet vaccinated by a vet, they will treat allergic reactions for free and make a note in your pet's chart. The downfall with the multiple at the same time is that you cannot tell what caused it, however it is usually the killed vaccines that cause it and overall lepto has been the one that was considered the cause. 

Truth is most clients don't want to have to come back for additional vaccines and complain as it is about pricing.  So while it would bring in more revenue, the truth is that less people would be wanting to deal with that. The majority of people don't like having to visit their vet often lol. 

And it wouldn't be really bad press for the vet if your pet had a really severe reaction and they passed. I've seen that happen ONCE out of all the years I've worked in the animal industry, and the two vets who were in the building had been in practice over 25 years and it was the first time they saw it either. It took all of us by surprise and we all felt terrible that it happened. The vet who was doing the appointment offered not to vaccination the other cat she had there (this is a client who we see many cats from and none had had reactions ever before) if she didn't want it and everything he did that day was free, including the cremation for the kitty who passed. 

No vet wants to have something happen to your pet from routine preventative care. Just like no doctor wants you to have reactions to what they do either. I had an anaphylactic reaction to a vaccine as a child, but it was only the one, I got every other vaccine than that one, and even if its silly because no one is going to give me another MMR vaccine, I have an alert in my file and usually on me if I am in for a procedure of any kind. 

But by all means, get involved with your pet's healthcare! Ask questions, figure out why they recommend things the way that they do, and if the vaccine is something that won't be an issue with your lifestyle, you can always say, I would not like that vaccine. We have plenty of clients who have said they do not want to do certain vaccines, and we respect that wish. Veterinary professionals really just want to see your pet happy, healthy and protected against harm.  It always makes us happy.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It's not about anaphylaxis but about overwhelming a puppy's immune system.
What's done is done, no sense in worrying about it now.
Look up Dr Dodd's vaccine protocol and go with that from here on out.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the opinions on here are just that 
opinions
your pup will be fine


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Overwhelming the system generally gets displayed in an allergic reaction however. Maybe not true anaphylaxis but generally speaking, after a round or two of vaccines, the body should have less of a reaction to known pathogens and a quicker response time to them so that something new would have a slower response. 

Animals are individuals, but if you think about them going around in the world from day to day, just as we do, their systems in theory will always be dealing with foreign invaders. Think of all the variants on the common cold, the fact that "kennel cough" is technically a complex of viruses and potential bacteria that can cause cold symptoms in dogs. Your body likely deals with different bacteria day in and day out, either picked up from wherever they may go, something they potentially ingest. If you go with that theory, your pet is constantly having to fight off something, so the chances of them handling a few pathogens at once in a vaccine should in general not cause a nasty reaction or be horribly overwhelming.


----------



## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

If you're worried, maybe find a holistic vet in your area, as they are equally qualified vets who normally only push necessary vaccines. Our dogs got the initial vaccines when they were pups and we did not live in an area with a holistic vet, but once we moved to Oregon, we found a good one. Our dogs get the 3-year rabies now and that's it. I'm not a fan of putting (usually unnecessary) chemicals into my body, or my dogs bodies, if I can avoid it. Good luck!


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Here is an expert opinion.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413

Vaccinations 101: Dr. Ron Schultz shares his vast expertise in vaccines with dog owners.(HEALTH) - Whole Dog Journal | HighBeam Research


----------



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Dr Schultz quite literally wrote the book on vaccine protocol.

Here is his (hour long) interview with Dr Becker.

Well worth taking the time to watch, they explain things really well.





 
Some vaccines are going to be dictated by your location and lifestyle, but as a whole, I'd do core vaccines, and follow up with titers.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes, PLEEZZZE do your research!
I can send you a list of registered "Holistic" vets in your state. If you choose a vet who is versed in Homeopathy, they can administer a Homeopathic remedy to combat reactions to the inoculations. Signs of reactions can happen immediately, or down the road, possibly years later. Constant itching is one you hear about most. Here are other signs:
Seizures and Epilepsy
* Allergies*
Autoimmune diseases, including organ disease, allergies and skin problems
Chronic digestive problems
Muscle weakness, especially lack of hind end coordination
Chronic digestive disorders
Skin diseases like Ischemic Dermatopathy / Cutaneous vasculitis
Behavior problems: aggression, destructive behaviors, separation anxiety and odd obsessive behaviors (like tail chasing and paw licking). Also can cause cancer at the injection site.

Below are some articles and sites that you can read up on.
In this article, Veterinarian’s talk about what they WISH they had known about vaccinations *BEFORE* they started administering them! 
*Vets On Vaccines*: Vets On Vaccines | Dogs Naturally Magazine
*The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies* by Catherine O’Driscoll on April 26, 2011 The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies | Dogs Naturally Magazine
* Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots* by Dogs Naturally on July 12, 2011 Taking The Risk Out Of Puppy Shots | Dogs Naturally Magazine
*Protecting Your Puppy From Disease:* Protecting Your Puppy From Disease | Dogs Naturally Magazine
*Bordatella Vaccinations:* Bordetella Vaccination for Dogs: Fraud and Fallacy | Dogs Naturally Magazine
This site has a WEALTH of knowledge on vaccinations:Top Natural Holistic Dog Health Care Book: Multiple Award Winner
Shirley’s Wellness Café and inoculations: Pet vaccination warning. Severe adverse reaction to immunization

Hope this helps your research!
Moms


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Only thing that bugs me about what Schultz said is that he didn't have parvo on that list of diseases. It isn't as pathogenic has it has been, however, it can often lead to death and the disease itself has his own set of troubles that can be lifelong for the dog. Your lifestyle should always be considered when it comes to what vaccines you do or don't use with your pets. Where you are located. Most vets I know only give bordtella if patients will be boarding or going to grooming salons, both of which require the vaccine to attempt and cut down on the severity of potential kennel cough the dogs likely will pick up while there. Think of airplanes and the common cold. Lepto is the only other one I know of in my region that is suggested yearly because the vaccine is a killed one, and there is a low dose vaccine available. The tricky part about Lepto is that it attacks the kidneys, and you don't generally see the damage until its fairly severe. Humans can also contract lepto just from water sources, which is where your pet would. 

Rabies is required by law, only one place in the US does titer testing for it. And the vaccine that was really causing trouble on it is no longer in manufacter. Zoeitis (aka Pfizer) bought them out some time ago. The other main core vaccine is recommended every three years. Titer testing is not inexpensive and requires your pet to go in for yearly blood draws. 

My golden got four series as a puppy on his vaccines, he gets rabies and the core every three years and I do give him the lepto yearly and bordtella every six months. Same for my other two dogs. However, my reasoning behind it is because we are frequently out in areas with a lot of wildlife, they are constantly around other dogs since they come and stay with me at work, and my golden is a blood donor for our clinic. There's at least two times I know his blood has been essential in saving the recipients. This dog was raised in an emergency/referral hospital with sick animals on grounds and did not develop any illness. 

So you really do have to look at your situation, what the dog can be exposed to and make your choices off of that. You as a pet owner can say, no I do not want my pet to have this thing, and the vet should respect your wishes. If they won't, find another vet who will. Your pet is your pet. It's like with your children. 

However, the fact that measles is making a comeback has me rather concerned being that I have a feeling I'd test with less than adequate titers for measles, mumps and rubella. And there is -NO- option for me to get the vaccine again as the first reaction was so severe there is no doubt I will die. Random off topic, however, if the general dog populous truly is vaccinated well enough, those diseases should eventually be down to next to nothing, which sadly in many places that is not the case. Nothing like spending hours next to a puppy with parvo to make you twitch when people are anti-vaccine.


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Colie CVT said:


> However, the fact that measles is making a comeback has me rather concerned being that I have a feeling I'd test with less than adequate titers for measles, mumps and rubella. And there is -NO- option for me to get the vaccine again as the first reaction was so severe there is no doubt I will die. Random off topic, however, if the general dog populous truly is vaccinated well enough, those diseases should eventually be down to next to nothing, which sadly in many places that is not the case. Nothing like spending hours next to a puppy with parvo to make you twitch when people are anti-vaccine.


I recently had my titers ran. Mumps and varicella were fine. (I had varicella when I was a child.) However, I did not have sufficient titers for measles, rubella or heb B. I was really surprised, because I had all my vaccinations as a child. Needless to say I'm now vaccinated. 

I have not ran titers on my dogs. I just get their shots done when they are due. All they ever want to give is the 6 in 1, bordetella, and rabies.


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

That is interesting. Though in ways it makes sense since individuals will have their own response to everything. I'm afraid to see what mine are, especially on the MMR since I cannot have that one.  That is why people being anti-vaccine makes me nervous. Those who can't be vaccinated rely on the "herd" to keep from contracting diseases. 

There was an outbreak of parvo so bad a few years ago they had to do a public service announcement about it. We were seeing half a dozen or more a week and one clinic saw 30 cases in a month. Normally we see one or two a week, half a dozen a month when it's parvo season. It is bad around here. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I don’t believe I’ve ever run across anyone on this blog being “Anti-Vaccination”.
I think the concern here is the number of vacc’s given and the multiple viruses administered in one inoculation.
Moms


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I have noticed that. I did look at some of the links you posted, as well as others, and it was interesting. I like reading and learning more about everything I can. I do understand why you would like to do less. I worry about people reading into things wrong and never wanting to do it. Sadly anything we do and any medications you use have potential for side effects, in the short or long term. It is like when people say these things cause cancer. Most things are correlated rather than 100% proven as a cause. 

The only company I can think of off hand that makes single dose vaccines is Merial. Most others seem to be combo in some manner. Where I am we have many people purchasing vaccines from feed stores to administer themselves, which I tend to be leery of. It is experience that makes me speak up lol. Some people who take things the wrong way. :/


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It has been common practice for decades to combine several different vaccines into one shot. Distemper, Parvo, Leptospirosis, Parainfluenza, Hepatitis, Corona are combined into a single dose so that the dog only has to have one shot (Rabies is separate). You can get the different vaccines separately, but it costs more, requires more needle sticks, and probably stresses the puppy's system more. But in all the time I worked with vets, I never saw a dog get sick from a vaccine. Sometimes puppies will get a little bit lethargic after their first vaccine, but that usually passes quickly--like within a day.

Unless the dog is allergic to some component of the vaccine, the "5 in 1" shot should not be harmful. However, once the puppy series is done, yearly vaccinations are not usually needed. I do mine every 3 years. This forum is somewhat anti-vaccine, so take that as you will.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I never load up on vac's (when I do them), and my vets do not recommend it either.

I usually do a parvo/distemper booster.. I don't do lepto, rabies alone when it's appropriate time, but NEVER all at once.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Momto2GSDs said:


> I don’t believe I’ve ever run across anyone on this blog being “Anti-Vaccination”.
> I think the concern here is the number of vacc’s given and the multiple viruses administered in one inoculation.
> Moms


Anti vaccination people are few.

I am one of those who believe that what you put into a living being always does something, somewhere.
I still wonder if Hans's terrible pyoderma, which started soon after his lepto vaccine, had anything to do with that shot.
Since there were fixes in our back yard literally lifting the leg and peeing on my son's basketball hoop post, I had no choice at that time.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

no there are some here if you mean this message board who are completely anti vaccine


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

blackshep said:


> Dr Schultz quite literally wrote the book on vaccine protocol.
> 
> Here is his (hour long) interview with Dr Becker.
> 
> ...


What a great resource! Thank you for sharing!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lots of info here:
Truth4Dogs

By and large the puppy stage is not the issue. It's the lifetime of annual boosters and shots that cause that cause the most concern as well as some Vaccines in search of a purpose.


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Colie CVT said:


> There was an outbreak of parvo so bad a few years ago they had to do a public service announcement about it. We were seeing half a dozen or more a week and one clinic saw 30 cases in a month. Normally we see one or two a week, half a dozen a month when it's parvo season. It is bad around here.
> 
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


We are having parvo outbreaks where I live. It was even reported on the larger news stations. 164 cases since Jan 2014 (I think) and over half of those occurred in April. 

I called my vet to double check the vaccinations for my three dogs. They assured me they are all vaccinated and not to worry. I could get them another shot if I wanted to, but it was not necessary. They did say not to take them to public parks. Especially dog parks. Which I don't.


----------



## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Ick! Be careful about any new young dogs with unknown vaccine history in that case.  Poor dogs. It always seems to be areas with a lot of people and a lot of dogs, with not as much information known. Parvo is so easy to catch and it just saps their little bodies so bad. ; ; Generally speaking an older dog who has been vaccinated should be okay, however they can carry the disease on their feet, just as you can, without your knowledge about it. Anywhere where dogs can walk, you can pick up parvo. It is one of those horrid diseases. Very good at lasting in the environment, doesn't take many particles to cause illness. Crafty thing there.

Hopefully people will start being more cautious and those numbers will go down. It thankfully worked where I was at, though we never don't see cases of it every year. Cats with FIV and FeLV are really easy to find around here also.


----------



## YORCHI (Feb 24, 2014)

Some vets really like to over-vaccinate. I just called a local vet to ask about shots for my pup and she said I needed to have her vaccinated every 2 weeks from 8 to 16 weeks. They also said they give the rabies on the same day as the last set of shots.

I'm going to stick with my normal vaccination clinic even if it means an extra 30 minute drive for us. I called them right now and they said that for GSD's they recommend to give one more set of the basic DA2P+Parvo shot and that my area has seen a rise in Parvo cases.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I will titer him every three years and vaccinate with a single vaccine only if the titers come back low.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Dr Schultz quite literally wrote the book on vaccine protocol.*

while i have not watched the hour long video myself i can say that it is one persons opinion and observations and not the general consensus of the entire country
it certainly is not *the* book on vaccines as if all other approaches are incorrect (they are not)

Community Practice protocols from University of Tennessee 

https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf AVMA guidelines and protocols

as for titers
The Truth About 'Titering' Instead of Vaccination | petMD
in short *Titers do NOT, however, denote protection against a given disease.*

so your dog could have a high titer and still become ill 
*That’s because a titer only measures antibodies, not cell-mediated immunity, which is the real-world measure of protection. In fact, as I learned, pets can sometimes come up negative (unprotected) on the titers and still have plenty of perfectly protective, cell-mediated immunity.*


----------

