# Dog Attack



## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

I just want to start by asking you guys not to tear into me too much for my ignorance on this scenario...I've already learned my lesson the hard way as it stands.

Yesterday my fiance and I took Emma on a walk. We do the first portion on leash - go into some training/ball throw to wear her out some. The other half of the walk I like to do off leash. I have an e-collar in case she were to chase after something but she never does. We pass countless dogs that are barking at her and she stays at my side and doesn't bark. Well, we were walking and we saw this couple with their chow. It showed interest in us but it wasn't barking or growling - we were across the street from the dog. Well, the dog pulled on its leash and the owner dropped it. The dog immediately sprinted towards us and without hesitation and attacked Emma. Emma is not used to dogs being that way and was just as shocked..crying and yipping pinned to the ground. I was yelling at the dog and running towards it and Emma managed to get up and run and the chow's owners grabbed their dog. This all happened in about 10-15 seconds.

I had no idea what to do. I was caught up in the moment. I was angry...I was more concerned with calming Emma down and making sure she was okay than dealing with the owners and their dog. I wanted to yell at the owners but I've never been rude to anyone I don't know. They were heavily apologetic. My fiance and I combed Emma over to check for wounds but we saw nothing. I barely spoke at all...I couldn't find the words between being upset and mad. I didn't even think to get their contact info..I just got the **** out of there. Bad idea. Got home and found Emma had a puncture wound on her back.

At this point I was even more furious not just with the chow and its owners but with myself. I did a bad job at protecting my dog. I also did a bad job of handling the situation - I was ignorant..I never expected it therefore never learned what to do in case of it. You know of all those horror stories of GSDs you hear of? Take the worst one. Well, Emma is the opposite of that dog. She's the sweetest loving dog I've ever met. She's been bitten before when she was younger..didn't effect her personality. I hope to God this instance doesn't change her any either.

I'm to the point if another dog comes after Emma I won't hesitate to kill it. I love animals and I understand mistakes are made and this is someones loved pet...but I know I love my dog more. I know I spend more time with her than they do...and I know this because a dog that has training and many hours spent with it doesn't act like that. I will most likely search for these people's house as I know the general vicinity in which they live. I will ask that they front out vet bill. If they give me any hesitation at all...I'll just let them know they better never let it happen again and if they do and it's me out walking then their dog is dead.

Sorry for the long post. Just really angry and feeling guilty in how poorly I handled the situation. I'm not afraid to admit when I lack knowledge somewhere. I'll know what to do next time lord forbid there is a next time but any advice is appreciated.

Thanks


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Why would/should anybody tear into you. You and your dog were victims. You didn't do anything wrong. You were in shock. Gator and I were attacked by a pitbull last year. G was on leash, the dog had escaped the house. We were victims of circumstance. Wrong place at wrong time. Thankfully G only had a puncture to upper leg as the pit had him by the throat (may have torn a groin muscle too), my hand got munched. I found where they lived. They did not compensate me for any expenses. Vet bills, my hand brace/abx. nor the $ I lost being off work.

It did damage me in a way. To this day I cannot go in that direction anywhere near where the incident happened.

I bought pepper spray. I never walk without it.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm sorry that happened and unfortunately accidents do happen. Hindsight is always 20/20, getting the person's information is always important even if you don't think there is a problem at the time but what's done is done.

I hope Emma recovers quickly and I know it's hard but I really urge you to not dwell on the negative and make sure she has lots of positive encounters to combat this one negative. You're not at fault, you did nothing wrong you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Calm down.You had a scary,traumatic experience yesterday but now it's in the past,everyone is alright.It was an accident.I would talk calmly to the owners of the chow,ask if they will cover the vet bill,suggest that they muzzle their dog during walks,suggest a trainer even.Carry a can of pepper spray.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Don't beat yourself up, don't keep reliving it. Especially when you are out on walks, if you get emotional about it your dog will feel it on the other end of the leash.

The first thing I would do is keep an eye on that wound and make sure it doesn't get infected. I would also find the owners just in case they need to pay the vet bill. I would not threaten them, but I would suggest they muzzle their dog since it has attacked.

Buy yourself a nice can of bear spray, walk confidently, and enjoy your sweet dog!


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks guys. I appreciate it. @GatorBytes wow...just wow. I don't understand people. If I had a dog that attacked dog/person or BOTH I would be so apologetic and willing to pay any of it. I don't understand people's logic. It's your dog. You train it...you raise it...you love it and by God you're responsible for it and what it does. Emma has a short memory thankfully...within 5 minutes she was her normal playful self. 

@Shade good advice and thanks for the reassurance.

@dogma13 & Sunflowers - thank you. I would like to suggest to them to muzzle their dog any time it goes outside. I also was going to refer them to possibly a trainer or two that I know through the k9 search and rescue group we belong to if they would at all be interested. I realize many people don't know how to handle certain situations with dogs and feel helpless.

The owners of the chow did make mention of Emma being off leash...not so much as a blame but sort of surprised? That leads me to another question...is it okay for me to walk my dog off leash? I've learned that if a dog comes at your dog and it's leashed you're supposed to just let go or else it can make things escalate which I've seen happen. I've done this before when a dog charged Emma and she was able to run from the dog seeing as I let go of her leash. The dog was serious...it for whatever reason was very nice to me..but wouldn't let Emma come to me..it was essentially telling her "hey he's my property"...Emma just wanted to play. Luckily that dog wasn't brave enough to actually go for her.


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## rtdmmcintyre (Jan 7, 2015)

I don't know how it is where you are. But here in Tallahassee we have a leash law unless you are at a dog show or similar event. Now that said your dog on leash wouldn't have changed the out come. The other people though could have been cited for not maintaining control of their dog in public and because it attacked it would have to be investigated and could be labeled as a dangerous dog. And that would cause a whole lot of headaches for the owner. Most times even talking to people like that about the possible consequences of what happened will not only encourage them to take care of the vet bill (because they would be afraid you would report the incident) but it will also help them to see the need to take steps so this isn't repeated.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm so glad everything is okay (so far) and hope miss Emma's wounds heal fast and you can put this episode behind you, and I know you'll get pepper/bear spray right away. I want to caution you about something else you likely did not think of in the heat of your anger. You want to be very careful about what you say on the public internet, especially about doing harm, because if anything were to happen, in any weird circumstance, those words could come back to haunt you. Likely a stretch in this instance, but...besides that...if you understand the way energy works (like attracts like), you just, in general, want to avoid negativity in any way whatsoever. Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you, be careful, get that pepper spray, take care.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

@rtdmmcintyre In Indiana we have no leash laws. I can understand the reason of leash laws (now especially) but it's very nice to go on a walk with your dog being off leash - granted they are capable. I want them to know the consequences but I don't really want to be mean either. I don't know them..I can't assume they're just bad handlers that don't train their dog. It could have been the dogs first time doing such a thing for all I know. I do however want to educate them and make sure they know that they are on a quick path to getting their dog put down given it doesn't get taught. I understand how frustrating training can be and some things you just don't know what to do. Then again some people don't care enough to put the time and money into it. Idk, I'll just have to see if I can find them and see what happens. 

In the meantime..Update: Emma went to the vet and is all good. They cleaned the wound and put her on some antibiotics. Growing up on a farm I knew how to care for animal wounds but I don't have the meds...figured that's the most important part especially with the potential for bacterial infections dog bites can give.


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

Glad Emma is okay. It must have been a scary experience for both of you. May I suggest that you report the attack to the local police or animal control. Yes, in this instance it was bad but could have been worse. Other posters say it was an accident but it could have been a tragic accident and next time it just might be. If you report it and the owners are contacted by the local authorities I am sure they will be more careful in the future. IF it never happens again then no harm no foul. However, if it does happen again there will be a record of it. They can't say its never happened before. And the authorities can take action rather than just a warning because they think it is the first time.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

reporting to the authorities is a must-do. approaching the owner yourself might not go well, could even be dangerous.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Awww man I am sorry that happen to you, your fiancee and your pup :-( You did what you could, your pup came away with little harm...you (and your fiancee) kept your head to pull them apart and move away from situation. 

Our GSD (Shane, now 14) was bitten by a chow mix when he was about 2 (when he was with my sis's family). He was physically and mentally/emotionally fine---but he did sense my sister & BIL hesitancy and fear of walking in neighborhood where the chow resided. My sister knew (from trainer) to carry water and had been shown how to break up fight when 1 dog leashed (Shane) and one not (chow). The other owners paid for cuts and abrassions on Shane. The incident soured our family of Chows (their temperament is on par with this incident, a bit of a stereotype, yes, but as it has been said, a pup/dog is reflection of an owner's dedication and commitment to training).

My only advice is what others have said---be calm (easier said than done), carry a spray or water bottle, and be vigilant. 

This is what I watch for tips on breaking up fights (for reference) and hope we (and you) never have to use. (has some graphic bites, but has great proactive moves to end fight) -->Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

Also, this-->https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/breaking-dogfight


This is, I think, most pup owner's greatest fear---I am so glad your pup is on the mend and nothing more consequential occurred.


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## rtdmmcintyre (Jan 7, 2015)

I just looked up Indiana law regarding leash and biting. Very interesting, while they don't require a leash they do require control. So your dog would have been totally ok where as their dog though on a leash was not under control would not have been and the state law is very specific regarding responsibility of the owner of a dog that bites. And their financial obligation. This article may be interesting.

Indiana Dog Bite Law


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Some towns have a registered dog owner roster available to the public. Usually listed would be name address and breed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Glad everyone is "reasonably" OK. As I see it the only "mistake" you made was "over estimating" folks ability to control there freaking dog.

You saw the dog that was good and it sounds like your dog was close to you also good! It kinda went sideways from that point!

I consider "all" dogs a thread to mine if have to pass people with dogs on a walk I am between that dog and mine. If a dog charges, I tell my dogs to "Stay" and I take point!
Let "Daddy" deal with it as it were. 

By and large a charging down is not looking to encounter a human! All they see is your dog! If you get in front of your dog, you can deploy any tools you have available...the loose end of the leash if nothing else and it also gives an owner time to get there dog under control...if there is an owner!

At any rate here is what others have done in such situations:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

Found additional info I have to update the thread!


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

@HOBY I never knew that. I'll check into it, thanks.

@Chip18 I really didn't think anything of it. We were on one side of the road they were on the other. We were probably separated by 90 feet at least. The other dog never barked or growled...that's really what I found surprising. As far as telling 'stay' and taking point - I like that. If I would had been more prepared for the situation at hand I would have done that. Seeing how sweet and seemingly naive Emma is I'd much rather fight in her place. I've been bit before. I'd rather be bitten than my dog if that's what it came down to...strange as that may sound.


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## Jedi (Apr 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Glad everyone is "reasonably" OK. As I see it the only "mistake" you made was "over estimating" folks ability to control there freaking dog.
> 
> You saw the dog that was good and it sounds like your dog was close to you also good! It kinda went sideways from that point!
> 
> ...


Yes...this ! My guy Bo is big ,larger than most GSD's . And very well tempered and I always have control of him , even when he's off leash . We have been charged at by pit bulls twice . Both times the dogs had escaped their yard and both times the came charging full bore towards Bo . Both times I went right for the charging dogs and kicked them (I've had some martial arts training) on their sides sending them flying . Both times it was enough that they ran cowering to the other side of the street . I always walk my boys with an eye out for other dogs . If I encounter someone with their dog on too long a lead I always tell them to reel their dog in before they get too close . They always do after I tell them that my dog will attack and seriously injure their dog . Bo is a big dog . If we encounter strays I put my boys (Bo and Bear) in a sit and I move towards the dogs saying "No ! Back ! Go home !" in a loud assertive voice (think drill sergeant) . This has always work for me . Most of the time tho they see Bo and Bear and quickly go the other way . It may seem to you that I'm a bully but I will do what it takes to protect my boys , and in the same way protect the other dogs involved since Bo is a BIG dog and would seriously hurt another dog or person . I maintain control of my dog and I expect others I encounter to do the same . 

When I worked at the plant (I'm retired now) and someone had an accident on a forklift or a truck I wouldn't beat them up over it or let them dwell too long on it . I would tell them to make a mental list of what they did wrong , remember it , forgive yourself , not do it again and move on . So you need to forgive yourself for whatever mistakes you think you made and move on . What you have gained is experience . Do not hold hard feelings for the other guy or his dog . Certainly your dog Emma doesn't . You know now how to handle it the next time it comes around . You'll do fine !
Rudy .


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I know exactly how you feel!! I had a similar situation a few months back where my dog was attacked by two off leash aggressive dogs. My dog was also off leash, but right beside me and these dogs just came around the corner and were on top of him in seconds and they were engulfed in a huge cloud of dust. 
Luckily the owners ran up and grabbed their dogs off, and my pup ran for his life off into the woods. I just had to leave the owners there with their still snarling lunging dogs while I went to find my guy.  I was extremely lucky in that he wasn't injured. But it was terrifying. It took me a while to get over it (longer than my dog lol) especially when I found out that these dogs have caused a lot of other problems in my area and have sent other dogs to the vet. 
I did end up running into this person again and confronting him. I can't help but err on the side of being more friendly and nice than I would like to be, mainly in hopes that I can give them some advice so that it doesn't happen again and have the best chance of them being open to it.... They still continued to let their dogs get loose and take them for off leash hikes. I got in touch with others in the community that have had issues and we made separate reports to the sheriff so that at least there is an established history. I was glad I kept out interactions "friendly" when I found out he was one of my neighbors a few houses over. 

About the off leash... I would highly recommend checking up on the leash laws in your area. Try to look into the laws for your county as well as state. I think, in general, most areas have leash laws. Where I live there are none, which I love! But at the same time, that's why this person doesn't get in trouble for their aggressive dog. (Especially check up on the off leash laws if you do choose to report the incident so you don't get in trouble!)

I was just lucky that the dogs got to him fast instead of my pup making it further away from me and the other owners before he was pinned. We were able to break it up quickly.
Which is a good reason to leash your dog when you see another dog, leashed or unleashed. You at least can have more control over where your dog is and can more easily get your dog behind you so you can defend him in the case of an aggressive dog. It's also usually considered the polite thing to do when another leashed dog is approaching. 

Like Chip mentioned, most dogs are looking for a fight with your dog, not you, so if you are able to get in between your dog, you have a pretty good chance of scaring it off. I used to ride my horse through a neighborhood where every other yard had an un fenced dog that would come charging up after my horse. I carried a little dressage whip just for these dogs. Even dogs that were not phased by a charging 1000lb horse coming at them would tuck tails and run the other way if I hopped off and came at them swishing the whip... It was more my body language than the whip, but the whip gave me a little extra confidence lol. 

Anyways! Just wanted to say I totally know how you feel! Don't beat yourself up about the situation. You could not have been expected to know this person would just let go of the leash!The most important thing you can do is try to not think about it too much and move on asap... I had to listen to music on hikes to distract myself for a while because it was hard for me to completely relaxed at first.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Regarding the spray: Someone shared this tip that might prove helpful. They mentioned that they used pepper gel because it is easier to aim and has less of a chance of blowing back at you or your dog. I carry that now instead of pepper spray. Because I don't think either product would stop a fight in progress, I think I'd spray first and ask questions later.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Come to think of it, the Chows I've been around, they don't bark much.

You did fine given the unprovoked nature of the incident.

Pepper spray maybe a good deterrent, but as mentioned above it isn't always effective in stopping an ongoing fight.

Sticks, I carry a very strong hardwood walking stick. I've backed off, off leash dogs just by pointing it at them and telling them get back in a very firm voice. It can be unwieldy though.




Graychamp said:


> @HOBY I never knew that. I'll check into it, thanks.
> 
> @Chip18 I really didn't think anything of it. We were on one side of the road they were on the other. We were probably separated by 90 feet at least. *The other dog never barked or growled*...that's really what I found surprising. As far as telling 'stay' and taking point - I like that. If I would had been more prepared for the situation at hand I would have done that. Seeing how sweet and seemingly naive Emma is I'd much rather fight in her place. I've been bit before. I'd rather be bitten than my dog if that's what it came down to...strange as that may sound.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

When I was a kid my family had a chow mix, looked mostly chow... (Possibly chow/akita judging by pictures) we got him as a young puppy, he was raised around kids and all kinds of people. Was totally fine with everything until one day he went off on my young cousin who was visiting. It was totally out of the blue and without warning. He bit her leg and wouldn't let go. She had to get stitched up and the dog was euthanized. 

I've since heard similar stories about chows, and that they don't tend to give much warning before attacking.


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## River-Otter (Jun 1, 2015)

I am allergic to pepper, so carrying pepperspray is a wildly bad idea for me. If you are like me, know that a sport bottle full of strong coffee or white vinegar will work just as well as pepperspray and is easier to aim when the adrenalin is pumping.

I know this individual dog gave no notice, but, an easy trick that always worked for me is this;
When you are walking your dog, if anything at all bothers you, from someone with an unruly dog to someone who gives off a bad vibe, hold up your hand and call out to them to hold on a second. Then, tell your dog Down, snap their leash back on if they're not wearing one, stand astride your dog, take a 2-handed hold on the leash and then call out to them. "Ok! You can pass now!"

And no one but no one will drop their dog's leash or come any closer to you than absolutely necessary. An uncle of mine taught me that trick when I was 18 and living on my own with my first dog (Thunder, a GSD/BC mix) and it never failed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Graychamp said:


> The owners of the chow did make mention of Emma being off leash...not so much as a blame but sort of surprised?


I have more to say but I wanted to address some points here! People can be "tools"...the law is simple "dog on leash" has all the "rights" under the law!

So "they" are making now "excuses" for there crappy dog management??? Bbig surprise sorry....it's a freaking "Chow!!" In the real world first hand experience a well trained GSD(DOG) absolutely "will Stay" while daddy "deals!" Been there done that! 



Graychamp said:


> That leads me to another question...is it okay for me to walk my dog off leash? I've learned that if a dog comes at your dog and it's leashed you're supposed to just let go or else it can make things escalate which I've seen happen. I've done this before when a dog charged Emma and she was able to run from the dog seeing as I let go of her leash. The dog was serious...it for whatever reason was very nice to me..but wouldn't let Emma come to me..it was essentially telling her "hey he's my property"...Emma just wanted to play. Luckily that dog wasn't brave enough to actually go for her.


I'm pretty hard core when it comes to my dogs! Leashed or not a stray dog does not dedicate terms to me! I tell my dogs "Stay"...let "Daddy deal with it!" My dogs get that!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Graychamp said:


> @HOBY I never knew that. I'll check into it, thanks.
> 
> @Chip18 I really didn't think anything of it. We were on one side of the road they were on the other. We were probably separated by 90 feet at least.


On the whole your only mistake was under estimating "stupid!!!"

Another dog "is" a potential thread until "proven" other wise! You had "Situation awareness" which is good! But you under estimated the degree of threat based on distance! 

Rookie mistake! Pretty sure you won't do that again!


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

How old is your dog ?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It sounds like the other people did not expect what happened to happen. I have never met a chow I would want to tango with. With that being said both parties in the situation were breaking the law, one on purpose and one on accident. Thankfully no one was hurt and it can be a learning experience for both parties.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> On the whole your only mistake was under estimating "stupid!!!"
> 
> Another dog "is" a potential thread until "proven" other wise! You had "Situation awareness" which is good! But you under estimated the degree of threat based on distance!
> 
> Rookie mistake! Pretty sure you won't do that again!


Nope. I will not do that again. Lesson learned!


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

llombardo said:


> It sounds like the other people did not expect what happened to happen. I have never met a chow I would want to tango with. With that being said both parties in the situation were breaking the law, one on purpose and one on accident. Thankfully no one was hurt and it can be a learning experience for both parties.



I do not believe I was breaking the law. Indiana law does not require your dog to be leashed and I had control of my dog the entirety of our walk up until her being attacked.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> How old is your dog ?


She will be 1 year in 6 days.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Graychamp said:


> I do not believe I was breaking the law. Indiana law does not require your dog to be leashed and I had control of my dog the entirety of our walk up until her being attacked.


State laws don't generally cover that. You need to check with your county or maybe city. Here's what I found searching Allen County/City of Fort Wayne.



> Off Property - All dogs and cats must be under the physical control of the owner or attendant by *leash* when off the owner's property. Their excrement must be removed immediately when on public lands. Now open is Pawster Park Dog Park, located in Foster Park, and available for off-leash exercise of dogs. For membership information call the Parks and Recreation Department at 427-6000.


City Ordinance


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Graychamp said:


> I do not believe I was breaking the law. Indiana law does not require your dog to be leashed and I had control of my dog the entirety of our walk up until her being attacked.


Well then I would chalk it up to an accident and move forward.


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## Jayfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

So sorry this happened to your dog.  I know how you feel. My dog was attacked six times, five times when he was a puppy and once this spring. Twice it happened because some owner decided to drop the other dog's leash.. I'm still working on desensitizing him because of these incidents.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Jayfeather said:


> So sorry this happened to your dog.  I know how you feel. My dog was attacked six times, five times when he was a puppy and once this spring. Twice it happened because some owner decided to drop the other dog's leash.. I'm still working on desensitizing him because of these incidents.



Sheesh. That's a shame. Just keep working...he'll breakthrough eventually. I just never thought about it because I've never had any bad experiences with other dogs. I've been to the dog park plenty of times and nothing ever happened. I've seen been told by my SAR trainer that dog parks are a disaster waiting to happen and to not go. I think I understand why now hah.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Ky was attacked 5 times between the aged of 18 months and 2 years, and once just three days ago ... SOME dogs never recover. 

Ky is great with her dog friends, but new dogs that come running up to her and in her face and all "that" ... she'll pin them in about 2 seconds flat. 

With all of her attacks (with the exception of the first one) she was on leash at my side ... the first one she was playing with another dog, and two random dogs came over and went after her (completely ignored the dog she was playing with)

Ky's obedience is stellar, so she is NOT leash reactive, doesn't flinch when we walk past dogs that are freaking out, barking, snarling, etc. As long as they don't come into her space, she's fine ... BUT that took some work to get to ... she was quite reactive for a solid 6 months after the 5 attacks took place. 

The first attack for your pup? SUCKS big time, but forget about it, get your puppy back out there and being a puppy / dog, etc. and move on ... your puppy will love you more for it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog fights are terrible. Your adrenalin is up and getting the dogs separated is hard and it always looks and sounds much worse than it is. And it was pretty bad.

That being said, this was totally an accident and the owners of the other dog were very apologetic. Your dog seemed ok, so neither party thought to give the other their contact information. Happens.

I think that while it is very understandable to be upset, I think it is unfair to assume these people would not have been willing to pay the vet bill, and I think it is terrible unfair to call them stupid. 

It sounds like their dog was leashed, it saw another dog and pulled away from the restraint -- it happens. It doesn't mean you are stupid or aggressive or unwilling to take responsibility for your dog. 

Chows are a breed I wouldn't own. They seem to be more likely to scrap with other dogs. Since that seems pretty common, the owners of the chow should have been even more careful. But, the same could be said of GSDs. And until your GSD actually does something like that, most of us would not expect our dogs to be reactive/aggressive.

I hope your dog recovers quickly with no negative aftermath. The only part of your original post that I feel is over the top, is that blurb about killing any dog that comes after her. I hope that was just a reaction to the moment. 

I really do not care what kind of owner/trainer/handler any of us are. There can be a moment in time when we are distracted or otherwise lose control for a moment. Any of our dogs could at some point wheel and rush at another dog, and maybe bite the other dog. 

What helps me to be less angry/irritated with other owners, is to think about how much worse I would feel if it were my dog that attacked theirs. I'd definitely rather pay a vet bill for my own dog than to know that my dog attacked someone else's dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Rocky pretty much walks off leash around here all the time! If your dog is off leash and crap happens...as far as the law is concerned you are at fault! Pretty much as simple as that!

My dogs are under my control but crap happens! As I said the OP's only mistake was "under estimating" how stupid some dog owners can be! As she said now she knows!

I'll state for the record if I have to protect my dogs...I don't have them sit! I just say 'Stay" if a dog gets by me!! I want my dogs to be in a better position to defend themselves, but that's my preference...nothing more!

Back on point...this is very informative, I kinda think the "iron pipe thing" is a bit over the top but yeah..."my dogs" come first for me, so...whatever!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbvqFEH5-qQ


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Rocky pretty much walks off leash around here all the time! If your dog is off leash and crap happens...as far as the law is concerned you are at fault! Pretty much as simple as that!
> 
> My dogs are under my control but crap happens! As I said the OP's only mistake was "under estimating" how stupid some dog owners can be! As she said now she knows!
> 
> ...


I think that if there is a leash law where they are, it would be true. The dog is off lead, something happens, and maybe both dogs are then found to be at fault because both owners were outside of whatever ordinances were in play.

But if there is no leash law, and one dog attacks another dog, who happens to be under control at the time, albeit without a leash, then I think it does depend. If there are witnesses that are able to back up the story, so it is not just a he said -- she said deal. I think it could turn out differently.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I love Chows and Chow mixes - I've only ever had Chow mixes, never a PB Chow. I absolutely love/d my dogs and hope to always have some kind of Chowy dog around me throughout my life. However, as a responsible owner, I know there is a point where my work and theirs in training, their attachment to me, and their desire to do what they want will reach a point where the latter will win. This is one of the ways that "it's all in how you raise them" makes me crazy. I know what I have, and act accordingly in public, depending on the dog and their quirks. I always say my one dog is like gas - silent but deadly  because she will give big sweet eyes to a dog and then when it gets near her to greet she'll grab its face - she did that one time (off leash dog ran up) and there are no more opportunities for that to happen! 

If I see certain breeds out, I profile, based on their breed standards for sure - Chows, Akitas, Malamutes and of course bully breeds and their mixes are some that get my attention. A combination of these dogs and people who think their dogs are so sweet make me more aware. I would definitely want these people to follow up with some training (keeping in mind Chows are force free training dogs) and just simple management - leashes, martingales, harnesses and muzzles all on the table. And reporting a dog for doing that is a good thing, because the next time it could be some old lady's little dog and then there's a real problem.  

But I also wanted to post in defense of Chows/mixes as being great dogs, one person dogs and outstanding animals when you are aware of what you have at the other end of the leash.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jayfeather said:


> So sorry this happened to your dog.  I know how you feel. My dog was attacked six times, five times when he was a puppy and once this spring. Twice it happened because some owner decided to drop the other dog's leash.. I'm still working on desensitizing him because of these incidents.


Me too. Had a foster with huge anxiety issues when Jax was 1 who attacked her. She'll be 8 this year. Still aggressive to strange dogs. "I'll get you before you get me". We do not foster anymore because of that dog and that rescue.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww Chows! Not a dog for fools! But much like the "all" little dogs are crap attitude" it's not about the dog, it's about the owner!

Poor owners make for ill behaved dogs regardless of Breed!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I went to the vet today, without a dog, to make a payment on my ever-running account. I met a lady outside with a large, impressive husky dog. 

I am a terrible introvert, but dogs bring out the best of me, and I can walk up to total strangers and ask them about their dogs, and ask to pet them. So I complemented her dog and asked if I could pet him. She seemed to say ok, but before I moved closer so the dog could actually reach me, she did say he would probably snap at me. She told me he might bite me when he realizes he doesn't know me. He's blind. 

Ok, then, I don't need to pet your dog, I have a bunch of dogs and am perfectly happy not petting a dog. LOL. [I have found that a lot of people love for people to pet their dogs, they expect it, etc, thus the question.] 

Anyhow, I was talking to her. The dog is ten years old has diabetes, and she has a handful of huskies and a couple of young shepherd bitches. The huskies are related. One will bite anybody. They are just like their dad, and the one she has with her is the best of them, the best behaved, etc. She told me that the one dog bit her nephew pretty bad, and this dog nipped him, marked his face above the eyebrow because he couldn't see.

I thought how sad it is to have a beautiful dog that little kids would run up to, only to be so willing to chew on people.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I thought how sad it is to have a beautiful dog that little kids would run up to, only to be so willing to chew on people.


Aww...yes! 

Rocky has "Wobblers" kids love seeing him..."look at the prancing dogie" he's a kid magnet!! He would have made a wonderful therapy dog..save for the fact that he does not like people!
.
Life time commitment of "No sorry, he has a problem with people" it wears on the soul. 

But he's safe in public and he's happy and that's the bottom line for me but...yeah.


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## clark77494 (Sep 5, 2014)

A few months back we had a Rottweiler get off it's leash and attempted to attack my GSD. Fortunately Ginger fought back and bit the other dogs leg and it wimpered off. 

Back in January we had a guy bring a firearm into a dog park and shot a dog 3 times killing the dog. Ever since that incident I have no desire of ever taking my dog to a dog park. What added insult to injury, the man got off for killing the dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog parks should be a firearm-free zone. I'm sorry, mostly I am for the rights of gun owners everywhere, but too many people think there is just no way to deal with a dog but shooting them. The rest of us manage to protect our dogs without shooting and killing everything in our paths.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I love Chows and Chow mixes.....
> 
> But I also wanted to post in defense of Chows/mixes as being great dogs, one person dogs and outstanding animals when you are aware of what you have at the other end of the leash.


My best friend had a chow, great dog! Shelby loved Stella! However, people and other dogs..not so much..cats were a definite NONO! One day we were walking, my sister in law and her adopted daughter (down syndrome) came by..Amy ran up to Shelby...'ahh, lion dog'.. Chrissy and I both stopped dead in our tracks.. Shelby, for the very first time let Amy hug him! Chows are amazing and georgeous!


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## LauraLamberth (Jun 10, 2015)

I am so sorry you had this ordeal. Dog attacks are so scary and they leave a permanent memory. When my son was in a stroller (way back when) i was walking our dog (part shepherd) and a stray same size dog charged us. The dog was going after my son, but our dog wouldn't let it. I picked up my son over my head and was screaming for help as the stray came at us circling us. My dog stood between us and the dog as the stray circled, lungged multiple times and bit my dog. My dog never attacked but took the bites and continually blocked the dogs attack on us until a neighbor came and scared the stray away. Very scarey, but proud of our old dog!


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks for all the support guys, I appreciate it. I've read a couple posts in regards to bad owners - not dogs fault.

Honestly it's both. A highly defensive dog with a low threshold for is dangerous. It perceived us as a threat at first sight - no matter how much training you give the dog it will never get rid of that. You may be able to suppress it with strenuous training..but never remove it. That coupled with people who most likely know little about it all makes for a disaster waiting to happen every time they take their dog out. The only way they are excused is IF they were 100% ignorant as to if their dog was violent toward any other dog. Usually people know this...especially if their dog is over a year old. That's all a big if. They probably knew to some extent how their dog was and didn't take any secondary measures to ensure it didn't bite anyone/anything (muzzle). It's safe to say this dog lost contact with reality and wasn't clear headed. That's not a bad owner...it's a flaw in the dog and its genetics.

Also, wanted to take a moment to respond to this.



selzer said:


> The only part of your original post that I feel is over the top, is that blurb about killing any dog that comes after her. I hope that was just a reaction to the moment.


I was very angry and it was mostly a reaction to the moment. Granted, if the situation were ever to arise again I would do whatever it took to alleviate my dog from another attacking her especially if she was unable to defend herself or get away. I wouldn't be seeking out to kill the dog...but if it died in the process I would have little to no remorse. First off - it'd be there fault their dog died - not mine. Secondly, I find it silly of people being extremely attached to a pet that sits around and does nothing. If you LOVE your pet..you work with it. You spend time with it. You train it. You know it better than anyone else and when you do all these things...you know if your dog would attack another dog or if they so much as have the possibility of attacking anything. When you know this...if you love your dog you do what it takes to protect it. These signs all lead me to believe these people weren't very involved with their dog. I spend in excess of 2 hours everyday training my dog and learning. I know what my dog can or can't handle. I know if it will bite or not. If it comes down to my dog and someone else's I'm not going to wait around - I'll take action. 

Now..this is in the event that it's a randomized freak event like my last one. If I were in a training group or something along those lines (even dog park [which I no longer go to for reasons like stupid owners not fully understanding their dogs]) I will not react as heartlessly.

That's just how I feel on the subject.


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## Animosh (Aug 1, 2014)

Did you notice any change in Emma after the attack? My 13 month old male was attacked 3 weeks ago. He seem different. More protective. Less trusting of strangers. I took him to the vet and he barked and growled at him. NEVER done that before. Same thing at runnings. A stranger went to pet him when my back was turned, more barking and growling. Brought him to a 4th of July party a drunk guy tried petting him, more barking and growling. We have worked so hard on socialization. This back slide is discouraging. I gotta believe it is related to the attack. But unsure.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

**** happens! Don't beat yourself up over it. It sounds like you did the right thing. You don't want to kill anyones dog unless that dog killed your dog. 

I would call animal control on them. Let them know where the dangerus dogs live. That way if something happens again the owners will hear about it. 

My dog got pinned aggressively at the dog park. I blame myself she was 7 months old. The owner was in his car and let his dogs just run around. The dog that pinned mine was a pure GSD. I took action and yelled at the dog since the dumb ass owner was not there. I took control of the situation and was ready. I should not have gone in the dog park. I should never have set my dog for that. My dog came out of it unharmed and still likes other dogs. 

My husband took our same dog off hiking. This dumbass lady had a Aussie she KNEW was aggressive off leash. She thought since she was in the woods no other dogs would be around. Well her F**$$ Aussie came Charging at my dog and attached it. My dog had only one wound from that. Not sure what the other dog had. The lady admitted her dog was aggressive. I was so mad when I heard about this and told my husband he was never allowed to walk cookie off leash again. BUT he learned his lesson. 

It happens lucky for us our dogs deal with these things better than we do. We as the handlers need to not let these type of thing effect us. If you are fearful or tense on a walk your dog will be too. We need to keep our cool and take charge of situations. Know that bad things can happen and just be ready for it. Learn how to break up a dog fight. Most of all don't let this effect you! Because your dog is over it and is ready to move on. You must be too.


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## Wolfie907 (Jan 14, 2011)

Glad got through with only minor injuries. There unfortunately are people who own large breeds who shouldn't own any dog. I've met some at the dog park, fortunately, Wolfie is pretty much the alpha there, but some owners have no clue.

Pepper spray, though could get you dog too, or an SPCA approved shock stick are worthwhile investments to protect you, your finance and your dog against those who continue to prove, "you can't fix stupid".

Best wishes to you and Emma.


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

In most cases I vote pepper spray too, over shooting another dog that may of got loose. That's if you can't handle with a size 12 boot.

Not saying there can't ever be a reason to pull out the Glock. I would just rather handle it in a less lethal way. YMMV


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

sourdough44 said:


> In most cases I vote pepper spray too, over shooting another dog that may of got loose. That's if you can't handle with a size 12 boot.
> 
> Not saying there can't ever be a reason to pull out the Glock. I would just rather handle it in a less lethal way. YMMV



I carry Halt Dog Repellent when I go running or take my dog for a walk. There are a large number of crappy dog owners and tied up pits in my neighborhood. I'm seriously considering to start carrying a handgun because I don't trust pepper spray to stop an attacking dog, especially a Pit Bull. I don't care what anybody says "how you raise them" is a dangerous load of crap when it comes to that breed. This is based on personal experience. My last GSD was attacked twice by Pits, and a friends little boy was killed by two Pit Bulls. 

My wife had a scare on the 4th when she was out in the front yard trying to get the puppy to go pee. A guy drove by with two pits in the back of a pick up truck. One jumped out of the back at 35 MPH and took off full bore towards my wife and the puppy. Luckily she was close enough to the house that she was able to pick up the puppy and get her in the house before the other dog got close. The dogs owner was apologetic and and I genuinely think he felt bad about the situation. It could of gotten ugly had I been in the yard and had I been carrying, I don't think that dog would of made it more than few feet inside of my yard before I dropped it. I'm going to do what it takes to protect myself and my dog. And I'm not going to subject her to a possible mauling because some idiot doesn't know what his dog is capable of.


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## Tarik (Jul 7, 2015)

clark77494 said:


> A few months back we had a Rottweiler get off it's leash and attempted to attack my GSD. Fortunately Ginger fought back and bit the other dogs leg and it wimpered off.
> 
> Back in January we had a guy bring a firearm into a dog park and shot a dog 3 times killing the dog. Ever since that incident I have no desire of ever taking my dog to a dog park. What added insult to injury, the man got off for killing the dog!



At first, I didnt think i was able to love my dog as much as i do now, but now if anyone does anything remotely bad i will flip out and kill the person myself!

GSD completely unharmful and there should be no firearms allowed in the park


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

bizz352 said:


> I carry Halt Dog Repellent when I go running or take my dog for a walk. There are a large number of crappy dog owners and tied up pits in my neighborhood. I'm seriously considering to start carrying a handgun because I don't trust pepper spray to stop an attacking dog, especially a Pit Bull. I don't care what anybody says "how you raise them" is a dangerous load of crap when it comes to that breed. This is based on personal experience. My last GSD was attacked twice by Pits, and a friends little boy was killed by two Pit Bulls.
> 
> My wife had a scare on the 4th when she was out in the front yard trying to get the puppy to go pee. A guy drove by with two pits in the back of a pick up truck. One jumped out of the back at 35 MPH and took off full bore towards my wife and the puppy. Luckily she was close enough to the house that she was able to pick up the puppy and get her in the house before the other dog got close. The dogs owner was apologetic and and I genuinely think he felt bad about the situation. It could of gotten ugly had I been in the yard and had I been carrying, I don't think that dog would of made it more than few feet inside of my yard before I dropped it. I'm going to do what it takes to protect myself and my dog. And I'm not going to subject her to a possible mauling because some idiot doesn't know what his dog is capable of.


DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HATE ON PIT BULLS THREAD!!! 

You obviously have NO real experience with the Pit Bull breed what so ever. Yes there are bad dogs out there of all kinds of breeds. DO not come out and say that PIT BULLS are the only dog that kill. It's not true. The fact that there are so many of them out there makes it seem like they are the worst. Think about this. Lets say 1 out of 10 pit bull attach and kill. But 1 out of 10 Chow Chows do the same. Now lets say there are 4,000 pit bull and only 1,000 Chow chows. I hope that makes sense. They are over bred and inbred. Sadly there are more pit bull out there than any other breed in the US I think it is safe to say. 

I had a rescue Pitibul attach my dog when I was 17. It's a crazy story but my dog was ok in the end. I had the pit bull put down. I was so upset I had to put that Pit down. It was clear that pit bull we bred and trained to fight. The dog was a really sweet dog. He just wanted to be loved. He was great with me. He was so sensitive after it all. I was crying on the way to the vets. The Pit bull climbed over the seat of the car to be with me. He than put his big head in my lap to comfort me. I still cry to this day about it. 

Even after seeing the bad side of Pits it did not turn me off to the breed. The good out weigh the bad. These are misunderstood dogs. YES People are the reason these dogs are [email protected]#@ Up. Poor breeding and BAD owners have destroyed a breed that once was a loved War hero during wwI and WWII. Look up Sergeant Stubby. 

I have since been living with another pit bull for the past 8 years. His name is Meatball he is a rescue. He is now 13 years old and we are getting ready to say good bye. He has been a good dog. Never started a fight but never did back down. His best friend is a 10lb Pom Mix. He has always been great with kids and never met a person he did not like. I have been around many Pits in my day friends and rescue ones. So please do not generalize and say all pits are bad because its just not fair. 

Even some dogs that have been rescued from the Fighting rings have gone on to live good lives and never hurt anyone.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

Pepper311 said:


> DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HATE ON PIT BULLS THREAD!!!
> 
> You obviously have NO real experience with the Pit Bull breed what so ever. Yes there are bad dogs out there of all kinds of breeds. DO not come out and say that PIT BULLS are the only dog that kill. It's not true. The fact that there are so many of them out there makes it seem like they are the worst. Think about this. Lets say 1 out of 10 pit bull attach and kill. But 1 out of 10 Chow Chows do the same. Now lets say there are 4,000 pit bull and only 1,000 Chow chows. I hope that makes sense. They are over bred and inbred. Sadly there are more pit bull out there than any other breed in the US I think it is safe to say.
> 
> ...


Soooo I have no real experience with Pit Bulls?? So the two times my last GSD was attacked unprovoked was a fluke???? He was only around Pits a handful of times his entire life. That makes the attack to exposure rate pretty high for such a gentile breed. What about Dax Borchardt my grade school friends little boy?? Did he not have a "real" experience when two pit bulls knocked him from his baby sitters arms and proceeded to maul him for 15 minutes?? Severing his spine and eventually taking his life. I'm sure that was a real enough experience for his family. 

I've run into your type before, you always talk about how great your dog is and how it would never hurt anyone. You know what? you are probably right your dog probably is a sweetheart and it probably wont hurt anything. But here is the problem with pits and bully breeds in general. They are statistically more likely to kill or maul another animal than all other breeds combined. They are statistically more likely to kill or maul a person than all other breeds combined. When they attack they are just doing what they where bred to do. There are cases of pits that where never mistreated, but something caused them to snap and somebody ended up dead. 

Everybody wants to talk about how important Genetics are when it comes to GSDs but yet want to ignore them with Pit Bulls. So its okay to talk about the Shepherds natural urge to heard, or a Goldens natural urge to retrieve a ball. But somehow it has become politically incorrect to discuss the Pits natural urge to bite and clamp down?? The people that really misunderstand that breed are people like you that refuse to acknowledge they where bred to produce a killing bite. If you Pit people love the breed so much take some responsibility and acknowledge what is was bred to do. And for Gods sake quit with the Nanny Dog crap, its just getting people killed

Have a nice day


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Uhm, a shepherd has a natural urge to herd, and a golden has a natural urge to retrieve birds, pit bulls have been created by breeding bull dog breeds with terrier breeds, so a dog with a lot of power, courageous, and game. Because of the amount of breeding that was specific to putting the dog into a pit and fighting it with other dogs, or pitting it against bulls or swine, you are likely to have a dog that is animal aggressive. 

Now let's look at the GSD. As a sheep herding dog, it would have to be courageous and powerful, willing to take on a wolf or big cat as well as guarding the sheep from human predators. And, the GSD would have to protect his charges against DOGS. Dogs kill sheep. A shepherd dog, used for both herding and guarding has to be willing an able to take on dogs. So one can rightfully suggest that our dogs are more likely to be animal-aggressive AND human aggressive. 

Now, we've seen your kind before too. You talk a big story, but if you got to talk about it, you probably don't have the guts to actually carry or use a gun. Good for the critters. Just remember that most of us have walked through a life amid the threat of dog attacks, and somehow, we, most of us women, have not had to pull out a 38 and dispatch a dog. We have managed to keep ourselves, our children, and our dogs safe from stray dogs of all shapes and sizes. 

I will admit that pit bulls and their many look related breeds and mixes of them have an inordinate amount of damage when weighing each breed equally, as do GSDS, and Rottweilers, and Dobermans. What you have to understand is that pit bulls are terribly popular and on top of that, they tend to be a favorite of irresponsible people and thugs. They are not an AKC breed, so they are not figured in the numbers. But my guess is that there are as many of them out there as GSDs, maybe more. 

And with that popularity, they are both being bred by people who have no business putting dogs together and for all the wrong reasons, and they are being owned by people who have no business owning anything alive. 

In a single attack, are they more likely to do more damage than a GSD? Yes, I think so. But German Shepherds have killed small children/babies too. I don't care for the breed. I don't really like their looks, and that is as far as I have ever gone with them, but I understand that their intelligence and loyalty makes other people very attached to them. Shooting a dog is fine if it is coming after your dog (probably not legally though), so long as you are ok with someone shooting your dog if they think it is coming after theirs.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I've been around Pits my whole life. 9 out of 10 dogs in the shelter here are pits, the other some type of chi mix. And their are CONSTANTLY ads for puppies for sale on CL and FB. It's pretty sad. They are an immensely popular breed here, and for the most part, not raised properly. I've rescued a number of them before I moved out of state. So I do feel like I have some experience to speak of here.

They were the easiest of all the breeds I rescued. No matter the circumstances they came from, 2 that were fighting dogs. They were literally the most loving and well adjusted breed in the shortest amount of time. After everything they had been out through, they were the quickest to trust, the fastest to jump into your lap for cuddles. I can definitely see where the term "nanny dog" comes from. Seriously the sweetest breed ever. With humans...

I could never have them around another dog, even the pits that had never been fought. They were the worst with dog aggression. They are incredibly powerful, and walks were impossible for the safety of other animals. I would rent out the tennis courts a few times a week so they were closed to the public, and that's how they were exercised. Maybe overcautious on my part, but I have seen these breeds literally bleed other dogs to death, and prance away with a happy go lucky smile. This is what they hve been bred to do. Maybe not initially, but in recent times they have been. 

This isn't every pit. My sister has one, and 4 cats that lay all over her without her moving a muscle, but that's all in the temperament and training. Would I take her pit for a walk? Nope. Because I know it takes one incident of her spotting something she wants, whether another car she isn't used to, a squirrel, or small dog that roam leash free all over the place. And I know I don't have the strength to hold her back. She's 60lbs of pure muscle. 

There is a good and bad side to all breeds, that's a given. But pits are naturally more aggressive to other dogs than a lot of breeds. I think it's the responsibility of the owners to be aware of what their dog is capable of, and taking every measure to insure nothing happens. But this isn't a perfect world, and a lot of owners don't care. 

That being said, I would still rescue another in need in a heartbeat, but I also wouldn't hesitate to knock the **** out of one charging my GSD. Including the two that I have knocked upside the head with a large stick that live behind me when they rush me growling with hackles raised when I go to take my trash to the alley. Their owners know they jump the gate and do nothing to prevent it, so I see nothing wrong with protecting myself by any means necessary.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

jschrest said:


> I've been around Pits my whole life. 9 out of 10 dogs in the shelter here are pits, the other some type of chi mix. And their are CONSTANTLY ads for puppies for sale on CL and FB. It's pretty sad. They are an immensely popular breed here, and for the most part, not raised properly. I've rescued a number of them before I moved out of state. So I do feel like I have some experience to speak of here.
> 
> They were the easiest of all the breeds I rescued. No matter the circumstances they came from, 2 that were fighting dogs. They were literally the most loving and well adjusted breed in the shortest amount of time. After everything they had been out through, they were the quickest to trust, the fastest to jump into your lap for cuddles. I can definitely see where the term "nanny dog" comes from. Seriously the sweetest breed ever. With humans...
> 
> ...


THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS POST. You have the experience, the sensitivity and clear communication with the written word. We have the same situation here at our Humane Society No Kill Shelter. It is full year after year with PB or PBx and Chi's or Chi x. So, the shelter is full and forced to turn other dogs away.

Would you mind, if I used your words to submit as an editorial in our local newspaper? All except for the last paragraph (as that is a less generalized personal account)? Your thoughts match mine, and because you said it so well, it may have a chance of being heard.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

In addition to the spray, to break up a dog fight with a loose leash dog. This is what I carry. It's an old fashioned ice pick, not too large, oak handle steel fastened and hammer finished with a flush bolt at the top. Very small but not likely to break. I can actually carry it in my back jeans pocket. 

If my dog was to be attacked and the attack got into the serious zone (not just a minor skirmish), I will send this to the dog's lung or stomach area. Hopefully, this would hit a lung and cause inability to continue the fight from lung collapse, but, If I don't have a choice any other vital spot on the underside will do.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Stone, feel free to use it, I would be flattered, and thank you for your kind words. Just do me a favor and edit out all the typos and grammar errors first . Posting from an iPhone makes it very difficult to proof read or correct mistakes


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

selzer said:


> Uhm, a shepherd has a natural urge to herd, and a golden has a natural urge to retrieve birds, pit bulls have been created by breeding bull dog breeds with terrier breeds, so a dog with a lot of power, courageous, and game. Because of the amount of breeding that was specific to putting the dog into a pit and fighting it with other dogs, or pitting it against bulls or swine, you are likely to have a dog that is animal aggressive.
> 
> Now let's look at the GSD. As a sheep herding dog, it would have to be courageous and powerful, willing to take on a wolf or big cat as well as guarding the sheep from human predators. And, the GSD would have to protect his charges against DOGS. Dogs kill sheep. A shepherd dog, used for both herding and guarding has to be willing an able to take on dogs. So one can rightfully suggest that our dogs are more likely to be animal-aggressive AND human aggressive.
> 
> ...


First, you don't know a **** thing about me or the kind of person I am, keep your unfounded assumptions to yourself. How I decide to protect myself, my dog and my family is none of your concern and I will deal with the consequences.

Next you are right, GSDs have killed children and babies since 1982 that exact number is 15 deaths with 113 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. GSD mixes are responsible for 7 deaths in 45 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. Compare that to Pit Bulls , 295 deaths and 3397 attacks in the same time frame. That study doesn't take into account the number of family pets those things have killed. Those numbers have to be off the chart. 

Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to December 31, 2014 - By Merritt Clifton - DogsBite.org

Those things are running lose all over the **** place in my area. I'm not paranoid, I'm just well aware of the statistical threat they pose.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

jschrest said:


> Stone, feel free to use it, I would be flattered, and thank you for your kind words. Just do me a favor and edit out all the typos and grammar errors first . Posting from an iPhone makes it very difficult to proof read or correct mistakes


Thanks! Will do. I'll send you a link if they accept it.

Anyway, this post is getting lively...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

bizz352 said:


> .
> Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to December 31, 2014 - By Merritt Clifton - DogsBite.org
> 
> Those things are running lose all over the **** place in my area. I'm not paranoid, I'm just well aware of the statistical threat they pose.


The thing I don't understand is when I explain my personal experience (attacked by PB's) to someone in person, there seems to be a stock answer "mine is the sweetest dog ever he/she would never hurt anyone or anything". This, despite the thousands of documented problems.

I have never represented my GSD's to be "the sweetest dog ever he/she would never hurt anyone or anything". I know what I have, I respect that and take precautions against harm, to person or animal. It's my responsibility and no one elses.. END OF STORY. It's about knowing the potential, not assuming it's not there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> Uhm, a shepherd has a natural urge to herd, and a golden has a natural urge to retrieve birds, pit bulls have been created by breeding bull dog breeds with terrier breeds, so a dog with a lot of power, courageous, and game. Because of the amount of breeding that was specific to putting the dog into a pit and fighting it with other dogs, or pitting it against bulls or swine, you are likely to have a dog that is animal aggressive.
> 
> Now let's look at the GSD. As a sheep herding dog, it would have to be courageous and powerful, willing to take on a wolf or big cat as well as guarding the sheep from human predators. And, the GSD would have to protect his charges against DOGS. Dogs kill sheep. A shepherd dog, used for both herding and guarding has to be willing an able to take on dogs. So one can rightfully suggest that our dogs are more likely to be animal-aggressive AND human aggressive.
> 
> ...





bizz352 said:


> Soooo I have no real experience with Pit Bulls?? So the two times my last GSD was attacked unprovoked was a fluke???? He was only around Pits a handful of times his entire life. That makes the attack to exposure rate pretty high for such a gentile breed. What about Dax Borchardt my grade school friends little boy?? Did he not have a "real" experience when two pit bulls knocked him from his baby sitters arms and proceeded to maul him for 15 minutes?? Severing his spine and eventually taking his life. I'm sure that was a real enough experience for his family.
> 
> *I've run into your type before, you always talk about how great your dog is and how it would never hurt anyone.* You know what? you are probably right your dog probably is a sweetheart and it probably wont hurt anything. But here is the problem with pits and bully breeds in general. They are statistically more likely to kill or maul another animal than all other breeds combined. They are statistically more likely to kill or maul a person than all other breeds combined. When they attack they are just doing what they where bred to do. There are cases of pits that where never mistreated, but something caused them to snap and somebody ended up dead.
> 
> ...





bizz352 said:


> *First, you don't know a **** thing about me or the kind of person I am, keep your unfounded assumptions to yourself.* How I decide to protect myself, my dog and my family is none of your concern and I will deal with the consequences.
> 
> Next you are right, GSDs have killed children and babies since 1982 that exact number is 15 deaths with 113 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. GSD mixes are responsible for 7 deaths in 45 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. Compare that to Pit Bulls , 295 deaths and 3397 attacks in the same time frame. That study doesn't take into account the number of family pets those things have killed. Those numbers have to be off the chart.
> 
> ...


Well, I was just using your own style. Seems that some people can dish it out, but can't take it, as often is the case. Protect yourself however you like, but if you jump up and down here beating your chest about it, someone is probably going to make a comment.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> The thing I don't understand is when I explain my personal experience (attacked by PB's) to someone in person, there seems to be a stock answer "mine is the sweetest dog ever he/she would never hurt anyone or anything". This, despite the thousands of documented problems.


It's the fur baby parent mentality. It just doesn't seem to lend itself very well to rational thought. 

How to Defend Yourself Against a Pit Bull Owner Attack | Above Average

I've been referred to in the past in some other venues as a pit hater. That's not true, I don't hate any breed of dog. I'm just a realist and understand they aren't always the sweet cuddly faced lovers that Animal Planet makes them out to be. They where bred for a specific purpose, and these traits do not make them suitable to be around other pets and small children.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

selzer said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I was just using your own style. Seems that some people can dish it out, but can't take it, as often is the case. Protect yourself however you like, but if you jump up and down here beating your chest about it, someone is probably going to make a comment.*


*

Whatever, you are baiting for a fight plan a simple. I'm done with you.*


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Stone, it is very much the fur baby mentality. Some people refuse to believe their beloved pet could ever do any harm. Unfortunately, it's normally these types of owners that end up with horrific instances of attacks, because they never see it coming. These are the pets that attack a child in the home, or grab their little yorkie by the neck and shake them to death. Owners of bully breeds need to know that they have that label for a reason. Not because every single one is going to attack, but every single one has that switch that can be flipped for any reason, and become an attacker. 

One of the pits I rescued was scheduled to be euthanized for biting a small child. I was contacted and agreed to test the pit. The pit was put in a bad situation by the owners that claimed theirs was the sweetest ever, and they just didnt understand why he became so blood thirsty all of a sudden. They allowed their 1 1/2 yr old child climb all over this pit. Pulled his tails and ears as children are apt to do. They would let their child RIDE the pit like a horse. They left the child alone with the pit. The child cornered the pit one day, and tried climbing up for a horsey ride while mom and dad watched encouragly. The pit had enough, snapped at the child's face, and was immediately brought to the vets for euthanasia. 

That wasn't a blood thirsty pit, nor was it wrong in any way. The parents were 100% at fault here, and that senerio could happen with any breed. Owners grow careless and compliant around their dogs because they've never hurt a fly, and ignore the fact that they have the ability to. This out was rehabbed in my home with my two boys who were 5 and 7 at the time. Never saw any aggressive behavior from the pit towards my children, but numerous precautions were taken to ensure that. And my children have been trained from a very early age the proper way to interact with animals. Children require just as much, if not more, training than the dog does. 

The little boy was fine, didn't even need stitches. The pit was rehabbed and rehomed to a family without children. Never had any issues afterwards, but did get rehomed to a couple who understood the capabilities this dog had to be aggressive towards children. They took my/vets advice, and never put him in a situation to fail, never allowed children to pet or get near him, and kenneled him when family came over. He did pass several years later, but did so of old age, and happy as pie.

So basically, the owners who say their pets would never hurt anyone are the ones you need to watch for. Those are the ones that will drop a leash when their dog is going after another, normally in shock. 

I've had a few people on this forum tell me I'm overreacting by not trusting my rescue with my children, or doubling up with a harness and flat collar for walks, and that not all fear aggressive dogs are bad. That may be the case, but it's minimal effort to utilize those extra precautions, and a dog that is never fully trusted means I never let my guard down, and never become complacent just because she has been behaving for however long it is. I still know she has the ABILITY to bite, not only my children and guests, but other animals as well. I set myself and her up for success, and don't allow her to be placed in situations where she has to act on her fight or flight methods.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

The study cites press reports. Those are not always accurate. Accuracy depends upon the reporter's knowledge. I could destroy it in court.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Archer got attacked by an off lead husky last week; it came right out of the long grass and bam, no warning, no posturing, nothing. Archer was on his lead, don't think he even saw the dog until the last second ( I know I didn't). Husky came off the worst of it, but **** the owner...I was walking Archer with a 10 month old Lurcher, who got the WORST fright ever. The husky owner comes racing over, rips MY lead out of my hands to pull MY dog back as he clearly didn't want to stick his own hands into the fray- remarkable! I snatched my lead back and told him to I could hold my own dog, and to get his, only not as politely as this. EVENTUALLY he manages to grab his dog and pull it out of the fight ball ( for the record I wan't going to pull Archer backwards and off balance while this dog was still attacking, he can handle himself) Absolutely ridiculous behaviour. Very minor apology, from owner who scarpered pretty quickly -although I have since learned this particular dog has form. What's WORSE is that Archer clearly 'enjoyed' the scrap, which is NOT something I want. I don't want him thinking fighting is a fun way to spend a few minutes. He was calm( no barking or lunging) in seconds, but geared up if the dog attacked again. Bottom line, these things can happen in an instant, with any breed. I've had to use the last few feet of my leather lead as a bullwhip before to stop charging dogs, I didn't even get a chance this time to go 'oh, I don't think that dog is going to stop–'


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Our LE is very aggressive with Pitbull or Pitbull type breeds. They have seen them in action, not just read articles. This attack was down by the river.

A couple with a Pit had him on a trail running off leash. A handicapped person in a wheelchair with his GSD guide dog were at the observation platform by the parking lot. 

By the time LE arrived (called by a passer by) the couple who owned the Pit were long gone (fled the scene, leaving their Pit behind), the guide dog was dead and the owner injured as he had been dragged out of his wheelchair. 

LE shot the Pit. The owners never came forward. 

The last time I was at the vet's office a lady came flying in the door. I was alone in the lobby. She was wild eyed and told me a Pit had just attacked her Golden in the dog park and she was bleeding badly from the neck. I yelled toward the back - "We have an emergency here". The vet came running up and went out to the ladies car with her. He could not help, the dog was too badly damaged - he gave her directions to the emergency animal hospital 10 miles away. 

I made a comment about it to the receptionist. She said "Oh, I have a Pit, she's a great dog and would never hurt anything". (I just don't understand the blindness). 

I find it impossible to believe that there is a soul left in this country that does not know the potential danger of this breed. That being the case, what is the mindset of people that say "I think I'll get me a Pitbull"? 

The mantra of our Humane Society is - It's not the breed, it's the owner. Well, sometimes yes - sometimes no, and there is absolutely no way to guarantee at some point they won't flip and attack to kill. A very high percentage of child deaths occur within the home of family or relatives. Yet, our Humane Society does minor temperament testing and preaches the wonderfulness of these dogs to families with children and other dogs. 

There is a law suit against the Humane Society in our county. A man adopted and was assured the Pit had been tested and was safe. Everything was fine for the first 2 days. On day three, the Pit attacked him while he was sitting on his front porch at his cabin. He was able to get to his gun and kill the Pit. 

An elderly man was attacked getting into his car parked in his driveway here last fall by the next door neighbors Pit who was routinely allowed to run loose in the neighborhood with the kids. They had him put down. Said he had always been a gentle wonderful dog.....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Would everyone agree that some breeds are more unpredictable than others?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yes I would agree to that Sunflowers. 

I do thin Chows, Akitas, and some Nordic breeds can be that way. Also some Pits can be that way. 

I came on hthread late so just read it. 

Sounds like a lot of us have had dogs attack our dogs. Poor Mayhem seems to be a loose dog magnet. I can take her walking on the same route I took Havoc on and she gets jumped and we never see any loose dogs with Havoc.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> In addition to the spray, to break up a dog fight with a loose leash dog. This is what I carry. It's an old fashioned ice pick, not too large, oak handle steel fastened and hammer finished with a flush bolt at the top. Very small but not likely to break. I can actually carry it in my back jeans pocket.
> 
> If my dog was to be attacked and the attack got into the serious zone (not just a minor skirmish), I will send this to the dog's lung or stomach area. Hopefully, this would hit a lung and cause inability to continue the fight from lung collapse, but, If I don't have a choice any other vital spot on the underside will do.


I can't imagine ever putting so much thought and detail into how I would kill someone's dog. 

In 40 years of dog ownership I've never thought about how I would inflict a final fatal wound on another person's dog. I've been threatened and chased by aggressive dogs, and always managed to stay safe without a stabbing or shooting.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Our LE is very aggressive with Pitbull or
> 
> The mantra of our Humane Society is - It's not the breed, it's the owner. Well, sometimes yes - sometimes no, and there is absolutely no way to guarantee at some point they won't flip and attack to kill. A very high percentage of child deaths occur within the home of family or relatives. Yet, our Humane Society does minor temperament testing and preaches the wonderfulness of these dogs to families with children and other dogs.
> 
> There is a law suit against the Humane Society in our county. A man adopted and was assured the Pit had been tested and was safe. Everything was fine for the first 2 days. On day three, the Pit attacked him while he was sitting on his front porch at his cabin. He was able to get to his gun and kill the Pit.


I'm convinced the Human Society has "fur baby parents" in charge in some counties. I've adopted one dog in my entire life and will probably never do it again. Either the shelter I adopted from was incompetent or they just flat out lied. This dog, a GSD mix was an absolute wreck and never should of been released into the general public. He fit the mold of the sweet dog that could snap at any moment. We tried for about a year to work with him but the last straw came when he bit me while trying to give him a bath. My kid was around 10 at the time and this dog was to unpredictable, it wasn't a safe situation so we took him back. I heard they eventually put him down, it was too bad because I actually really liked the dog when he wasn't trying to bite me. 



> An elderly man was attacked getting into his car parked in his driveway here last fall by the next door neighbors Pit who was routinely allowed to run loose in the neighborhood with the kids. They had him put down. Said he had always been a gentle wonderful dog.....


The dogs that killed my friends little boy where raised from pups in a loving home. They never once showed any aggression until they day they killed him. 

The following is from this article. Beyond the Interview: Father of Child Killed by Babysitter's Pit Bulls Speaks Out After Attack - DogsBite.org



> It must be noted that Susan had babysat Dax at her home on at least 20 occasions previously without incident. The set up was always the same. She and Dax spent time in the front part of the house near her two pet chinchillas. The pit bulls were kept kenneled in the back part of the home near a sliding glass door that exited into the backyard and fenced dog run. Susan provided photographs of the backyard where the attack occurred (taken one year earlier) for this essay.
> 
> It was 12:30 pm and time for the dogs to be let outside. Susan dressed Dax in his coat; she had on snow boots and an unzipped parka. There was a routine when the dogs were let out of their kennels. Not only did they have to stay in their kennel until the door was fully open, but were also given an okay to exit. Susan was holding Dax on her hip when she opened the kennel doors. The dogs exited in the routine way then went out the glass door and headed toward the dog run.
> 
> ...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK, I'm backing up to the original post here (ignoring all the whosabaddog). One point about off lead dogs vs on lead dogs - site of an off lead dog will sometimes aggitate an on lead dog. Which may explain the surprise the people showed at discovering the GSD was off lead -- and may explain that the Chow was able to disengage the lead from the handler.

Wyoming was bad for having dogs charge us when I was walking the barker sisters. Many times I've told the story of a boston & golden coming over their low front fence to confront the BS (hey, not THAT BS!!) I did tell the owner he needed to make different arrangements and was ignored. (ie no different arrangements took place). We were just back from a OB trial when we walked past to find them all over the BS again. My dogs were "What's this?" as in basically puzzled about what those dogs were doing. Delightfully, a few minutes later a sheriff's deputy drove past - I explained what had happened, he spoke to the "human refusing to be in charge" -- the pups were in the seperately fenced back yard ever after. 

Anyway, lots of experience with charging dogs here (the above is just the most gratifying story I have) but none that did any damage. (My posting history here probably has some of me complaining about the situation in Arkansas.) Good luck to the OP - keep your attitude good around other dogs and your dog will be fine.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I can't imagine ever putting so much thought and detail into how I would kill someone's dog.
> 
> In 40 years of dog ownership I've never thought about how I would inflict a final fatal wound on another person's dog. I've been threatened and chased by aggressive dogs, and always managed to stay safe without a stabbing or shooting.


Many people have never thought about what they could to to prevent the death of their dog in a severe prolonged attack. They stand there screaming and yelling for someone to do something. That's not going to save their dog. 

As with anything else in life, it pays to be prepared for a situation that could happen. That is why people own guns. I don't plan on being one of the people who think it can never happen to them. There are many dead dogs who may have wondered in their last moments, why didn't my beloved owner do anything to help me? Why did they just stand there and watch this happen?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> Our LE is very aggressive with Pitbull or Pitbull type breeds. They have seen them in action, not just read articles. This attack was down by the river.
> 
> A couple with a Pit had him on a trail running off leash. A handicapped person in a wheelchair with his GSD guide dog were at the observation platform by the parking lot.
> 
> ...


On another site somewhere, someone could be typing this same post with the GSD being the bad breed. 

The people of the neighborhood where I work are ALL afraid of Babsy, but I know flat out that she will not attack without an excellent reason. And even then, she would be looking for me to call her off. She doesn't want to bite someone. 

People at a vet clinic somewhere, where a GSD has attacked another dog, will be wondering how anyone could be so stupid about the potential for harm the dog has. Everyone knows someone who has been bitten by a GSD. I know several people. I know no one that has been bitten by a pit bull. 

Of course, I have read of many incidents. I suppose if there was one or more newspaper accounts, a viral thread on facebook, and a blurb on the evening news every time a GSD bit someone, people would be ready to ban our breed too.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Many people have never thought about what they could to to prevent the death of their dog in a severe prolonged attack. They stand there screaming and yelling for someone to do something. That's not going to save their dog.
> 
> As with anything else in life, it pays to be prepared for a situation that could happen. That is why people own guns. I don't plan on being one of the people who think it can never happen to them. There are many dead dogs who may have wondered in their last moments, why didn't my beloved owner do anything to help me? Why did they just stand there and watch this happen?


of course there is always the chance you would run into say a former navy seal doc who would take that pick or gun away and use it on you after you killed their dog. truth is, stuff happens and one would think both owners could keep a cool head and stop the fiasco with as little damage as possible.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> of course there is always the chance you would run into say a former navy seal doc who would take that pick or gun away and use it on you after you killed their dog. truth is, stuff happens and one would think both owners could keep a cool head and stop the fiasco with as little damage as possible.


My post was dealing with a stray with no other owner around. It was also only dealing with a prolonged attack situation where death was a possibility. But, I guess you missed that....


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

bizz352 said:


> First, you don't know a **** thing about me or the kind of person I am, keep your unfounded assumptions to yourself. How I decide to protect myself, my dog and my family is none of your concern and I will deal with the consequences.
> 
> Next you are right, GSDs have killed children and babies since 1982 that exact number is 15 deaths with 113 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. GSD mixes are responsible for 7 deaths in 45 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. Compare that to Pit Bulls , 295 deaths and 3397 attacks in the same time frame. That study doesn't take into account the number of family pets those things have killed. Those numbers have to be off the chart.
> 
> ...


if you were around in the early sixties, you would know how viscous great danes were. proper breeding can eliminate most dangerous traits. i can also tell you, it has been my experience the majority of dog bites i have seen in the er are from gsd. the worst malling i have seen was from an owners beagle. one cannot stress enough the importance of proper breeding and breeder selection on who is allowed to purchase their dogs. it is unfortunate, but there are still, pit bull clubs alive and well in the underground sport of dog fighting and some of these pups/genes do end up in the general population.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> My post was dealing with a stray with no other owner around. It was also only dealing with a prolonged attack situation where death was a possibility. But, I guess you missed that....


actually i think i combined your post with a couple others, apologies.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have only been afraid for my life and my dogs twice. 

My old rescue Max and I were attacked by an off leash pit bull in Kentucky. It came running down the long driveway after us and jumped Max first. I kicked it off and it turned on me. I was screaming for help and the owner who had a table saw running and had his back to the road could not hear me. A plumber driving by in his truck saw me fall to the ground and jumped out and beat the dog off with a shovel. At the time Max had the pit by the skin on top of its head and the pit had me on my knee. 

Second time we had moved to Oregon and I was walking Kayos and Max together. I had encountered these dogs separately a few times and managed to avoid them but I did not know where they were coming from. One evening I was out walking and watched the 2 dogs, 1 a pit bull and the other an akita mix, jump their fence and come after us. The dogs were owned by a city police officer, his cruiser was in his driveway and the windows in his house were open but he did not hear me yelling to get the dogs. I turned and walked quickly away hoping the dogs would break off. They did not. I had my dogs behind me and I ended up on my knees on the sidewalk. The dogs never reached my dogs. Thankfully the guy across the street came out to take his trash out and grabbed a broom and beat the dogs off. He backed me in court and the police officers dogs went bye bye. 

There are always going to be loose dogs because the world is full of idiots. I can only hope I can protect my dogs. I only walk one dog at a time now as a result of the last attack. I find I can concentrate on my actions better that way.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow Kathy, you've been there. I am glad you were able to pursue the 2nd incident in court. 

When the two Pits attacked me, I didn't have my dog with me thank God. I was just walking home from the grocery store. What saved me was cans of green beans.

I swung the bags keeping the one behind me from attaching to my leg and the one in front of me from making contact from the front. Someone in a red pickup truck saw what was happening and stopped in the middle of the street. He didn't get out to help or pull his truck into the parking lot to help me. I think he was calling 911.

These Pits were not quitting and I knew I had to stuff my fear and bring out my anger. I lunged for the front dog making the most aggressive "NO!" I could muster and made a solid connection to his head with the bag containing 6 cans of green beans. As soon as the front dog stopped the back dog did too. They both took off running full speed down the street. I walked back to the grocery store and called Animal Control from there. 

I think the only way to get irresponsible owners to keep their dogs confined or under control is to hit them in the pocket book. Seize the offending dog(s) and impose a $500.00 fine not a measly 50.00 one.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I can't imagine ever putting so much thought and detail into how I would kill someone's dog.
> 
> In 40 years of dog ownership I've never thought about how I would inflict a final fatal wound on another person's dog. I've been threatened and chased by aggressive dogs, and always managed to stay safe without a stabbing or shooting.


I'm going to have to agree with you, Saphire....that is a bizarre thought process.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MamaofLEO said:


> I'm going to have to agree with you, Saphire....that is a bizarre thought process.


Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking I should be prepared in case the worst case scenario happens. Or, perhaps you have a better plan to defend your dog if it is being killed in front of your eyes by a stray or escaped dog and no one is around. Maybe you think "That can never happen to me, so I don't need to think about it". I now have 6 Pitbulls living within 100 yards of my house. One man stopped when I was being attacked by the 2 pitbulls 3 years ago. He did not approach or leave his truck. He called 911. This is the only help that may be availed to me in an attack. 

I have read posts here that mention the owners had to deliver many kicks or blows to the stray to stop the attack. I am a 60 year old female and my kicks wouldn't be effective. 

As I mentioned, I carry the spray and would use that first. The reason for my defense weapon selection has to do with Idaho concealed weapon law. A simple pocket knife with over a 4" blade requires a concealed weapons permit to carry in my purse or pocket.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Stonevintage I am 58 and not all that big either. 5 foot 3 and about 140 pounds. I now carry a large walking stick. When I was attacked in KY and OR I was much younger, those attacks occurred in 2002 and 2005. 

The older I get the less strength I have.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

stone, not sure about your laws, but i have "bear spray" a large can of pepper spray and found to be effective with bears and coyotes. sprays a good 20 feet. imho, the ice pick would be too little too late. if you do choose this option, have someone spray you with it, wifey was happy to help me with that,lol, as blow back could happen and you dont want to find out how it feels in the middle of a crisis. baby shampoo cleans it off pretty well. for me, a tad worse than the tear gas in boot camp. of course the canned beans seem to be working for you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Stonevintage I am 58 and not all that big either. 5 foot 3 and about 140 pounds. I now carry a large walking stick. When I was attacked in KY and OR I was much younger, those attacks occurred in 2002 and 2005.
> 
> The older I get the less strength I have.


hey i'm 58 also!!!!!!! its not always about strength, its being able to keep your cool. as i said to stone, an ice pick a walking stick, in my opine are of little use against, a more than one dog attack. ie two pit bulls. bear spray would be a better choice.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Ha! Yea, maybe I should stick with the can o' beans array. I was just reading about "break sticks". They require you climb on the back of the dog that is locked on to yours, get a firm grip on the dog, insert the stick and pull back. But, it effectively removes the locked dogs jaws so there isn't further damage done trying to separate. 

Ahem - I'm not going to rodeo ride any attacking dog to try to get a break stick in. 

Thanks for the suggestion on the bear spray. I don't think it would be a violation to carry here. I will however forego your suggestion to have someone spray me to see how it feels.

I had a parrot when I was younger. His feed had dried red chili pepper pods. He liked the seeds but not the pods. So, I "shelled" about 25 for him one day, then I rubbed my eyes......


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

the thing i also like about the bear spray is it doesnt cause real injury. in my case, protective mama bears and cubs, stick, clubs, knife even a sidearm would be of little value.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking I should be prepared in case the worst case scenario happens. Or, perhaps you have a better plan to defend your dog if it is being killed in front of your eyes by a stray or escaped dog and no one is around. Maybe you think "That can never happen to me, so I don't need to think about it". I now have 6 Pitbulls living within 100 yards of my house. One man stopped when I was being attacked by the 2 pitbulls 3 years ago. He did not approach or leave his truck. He called 911. This is the only help that may be availed to me in an attack.
> 
> I have read posts here that mention the owners had to deliver many kicks or blows to the stray to stop the attack. I am a 60 year old female and my kicks wouldn't be effective.
> 
> As I mentioned, I carry the spray and would use that first. The reason for my defense weapon selection has to do with Idaho concealed weapon law. A simple pocket knife with over a 4" blade requires a concealed weapons permit to carry in my purse or pocket.


I guarantee anybody that sees what a ramped up Pit can do live and in person won't be so quick to judge. You do what you feel you need to do protect yourself and your dogs. If some here don't like it, screw them. At the end of the day you are the one responsible for your safety, not them.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I live in the country, however the city is quickly engulfing us. People think it's ok to dump their dogs out on our roads. Any stray that ventures onto my property, gets a hiney full of rat shot. 99.9% of the time they won't return. 

In the past 30 years I've only had to use deadly force once to protect my livestock. 

I will exhaust all forms of defense before I'll use deadly force. I won't be made to feel guilty about protecting what I've committed to protecting. 

I follow the same thought process when I'm off property.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

bizz352 said:


> I guarantee anybody that sees what a ramped up Pit can do live and in person won't be so quick to judge. You do what you feel you need to do protect yourself and your dogs. If some here don't like it, screw them. At the end of the day you are the one responsible for your safety, not them.


Exactly. Thank You. I just visited a LE blog site. They don't say "shoo" and hope that works. My friend's husband is the Animal Control Officer in the adjoining city. By the time he arrived at a call, the Pit had ripped half of a GSD's face off. He had to put both dogs down at the scene.


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## kburrow11 (Jan 31, 2014)

One of the best long distance sprays that works like mace, but doesn't require a permit or age requirement like mace does in some states is wasp spray. It has a range of about 20-30 feet and will stop most things, including humans.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

kburrow11 said:


> One of the best long distance sprays that works like mace, but doesn't require a permit or age requirement like mace does in some states is wasp spray. It has a range of about 20-30 feet and will stop most things, including humans.


Never heard of that one!Do you know of anyone that actually tried it? I've been following this thread and was going to share my close encounters with pit bulls,but just more of the same gets tedious to read for everyone.They were very bad experiences.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Anyone ever tried an air horn (after desensitizing your own dog of course)?


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## kburrow11 (Jan 31, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Never heard of that one!Do you know of anyone that actually tried it? I've been following this thread and was going to share my close encounters with pit bulls,but just more of the same gets tedious to read for everyone.They were very bad experiences.


One of my friends used it when he was in the woods and a bear was coming after him. Because the containers usually have a long tube extension coming off the container (like a stiff fire extinguisher hose) it's much easier to direct and not get anything else in the process of spraying your target.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

bizz352 said:


> First, you don't know a **** thing about me or the kind of person I am, keep your unfounded assumptions to yourself. How I decide to protect myself, my dog and my family is none of your concern and I will deal with the consequences.
> 
> Next you are right, GSDs have killed children and babies since 1982 that exact number is 15 deaths with 113 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. GSD mixes are responsible for 7 deaths in 45 attacks resulting in serious bodily harm. Compare that to Pit Bulls , 295 deaths and 3397 attacks in the same time frame. That study doesn't take into account the number of family pets those things have killed. Those numbers have to be off the chart.
> 
> ...



you are correct, we dont know a thing about you but can make assumptions based on the emotionalism that comes through in your posts. stats rarely tell the entire issue and often can be manipulated as per an agenda. ie: define serious bodily harm? of course my statement works both ways, could be worse than the stats show. 

dont fool yourself, how you choose to protect, yourself, family and animals concerns all of us as we will have to deal with the consequences and ensuing new rules and regs caused by others actions. your clear dislike of bully breeds comes through loud and clear. the problem with this is, what breed makes your next most dangerous breed list? i mean a jack russell can be pretty fieisty. gonna just drop em if they get to close for your liking? 

you jumped all over another poster who YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AND MADE ASSUMPTIONS as she defended the PBT breed. not once did you engage her and ask, if her dog runs loose in the neighborhood, how secure is her yard ,training, precautions ect. 

just to be clear, if i lived across the street from you and you werent home and saw any breed that could cause real damage going after your wife, i would drop em with out a second thought. 

not that expect an answer, but what have you done in your town to change laws and stop, and i will quote you" those****things from running all over the place." or as i suspect, just carry and drop any dog the resembles a bully breed and call it a day. 

i understand your dislike and why, but do have an issue with a broad response based on emotion esp when weps are involved.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Anyone ever tried an air horn (after desensitizing your own dog of course)?


yeah, on bears, stopped working after the second time.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> yeah, on bears, stopped working after the second time.


Do you have a recommended brand on the bear spray? I've never seen so much hype advertising as on these sprays.Thanks!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> yeah, on bears, stopped working after the second time.


How do you mean that? Was the bear not impressed or did the air horn give out? Curious about the details.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i used an airhorn from wall mart. a boat horn. the horn still works, the desired effect stopped working.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

It's funny Gunther Dominate male BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix did not like other dogs. He was taught different by me! And he was safe around other dogs! He never got the memo that he was "unpredictable??"

And Susan and the baby...those were "not" her dogs! I know that story... of course!

"RESPONSPONSIBLE " dog owners don't have their dogs jumping over fences and running wild in the street!! 

All these stories prove is that "Pit Bulls" are cheap and plentiful and that "American" (I keep hearing that used! ) is full of fools that should not have "any" breed capable of doing serious damage!

Millions of us have powerful breeds. And we don't come home from walks or runs everyday and post on the web... "went for an outing and my dogs did not attack anything or anybody!" I'd have 15 years of those type post myself and yes I have had my loose pit encounters! And yet again...15 years and "NO" dog gets near mine with intent to do harm! Combination of "skill" and "luck!" Head up eyes and ears open it's not a walk it's a patrol!

Something useful for those that have not seen it.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

My two cents...carry on folks.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

stonevintage, i have "counter assault" on the can i states bear deterrent. comes with a velcro holder to attach to your belt. i get it from a local sporting goods shop. it is also sold at "gander mountain" a cabelas type store. i think 45.00. easy to use, no real injury to animals or people.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> It's funny Gunther Dominate male BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix did not like other dogs. He was taught different by me! And he was safe around other dogs! He never got the memo that he was "unpredictable??"
> 
> And Susan and the baby...those were "not" her dogs! I know that story... of course!
> 
> ...


i have a quick release leash, if the encounter does occur, i want my dog off the leash and not handicapped. your thoughts?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> stonevintage, i have "counter assault" on the can i states bear deterrent. comes with a velcro holder to attach to your belt. i get it from a local sporting goods shop. it is also sold at "gander mountain" a cabelas type store. i think 45.00. easy to use, no real injury to animals or people.


Thank you. I saw that brand on Amazon.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> i have a quick release leash, if the encounter does occur, i want my dog off the leash and not handicapped. your thoughts?


In my "experience" that would be fine, but it really doesn't really make a difference. 

The "luck" part for me is I usually see them coming! Loud noisy and moving fast for the most part "usually" easy to spot if your "headsup!" I tell my dog to "Stay" and I take point! 

"Most" dogs aren't looking for humans, all they see is your dog! Daddy's got this, is how "I" roll! I still have the leash in hand but it's loose. I don't have them sit or down, "if" a dog gets past me, I want my guys in a position to defend themselves! A "Sit" or a "Down" puts them at a disadvantage if a dog gets by me! If I used Bear spray, it's not hitting my guys!

A well trained well disciplined dog will "Stay" under pressure in a "situation" that was "proofed" by me and my guys under pressure one day on a walk.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

So yeah I don't really get the "unpredictable" thing myself?? 

And by and large if there is a "Pit Bull" attacks x, headline anywhere by and large you'll find an irresponsible owner somewhere in the background! 

I will "concede" that for the most part "Pit's" roll out the box not much caring for other dogs but that does not mean that with "proper" management that can't be changed! But if the said dogs are running loose...then it's safe to say that proper management is uh...lacking!

That's not a "breed" problem that's a "people" problem! Folks should put the blame where it belongs...just saying.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

My take on pit bulls is this:

They are not inherently bad dogs. I don't like them, but that doesn't mean they're objectively bad. I take a, "Don't like pit bulls? Don't have one" stance personally (meaning I don't want to be responsible for one, ever, but far be it from me to say you can't have one if you want to).

What I do know is that they are generally structured to be physically powerful, and they are tenacious. I don't know if a given individual pit bull is aggressive or not, if I meet it while on a walk. But assuming s/he is, s/he has potential to do a LOT more damage to me or to my dog than a miniature poodle would have. I'm appropriately cautious as a result.* If that makes me prejudiced, I am totally okay with that. I would rather protect myself and my own dog.


*Yes I realize I should be cautious with any type of dog, and I am. Just beating anyone to the punch because I know it would be said if I didn't.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I love to work with Pits and I like them as a "breed" but would never have one for all of the above reasons.
I don't believe for a second that "it is all about the way they are handled/trained and as long as that has been done well, everything will be OK".
From most Pits that are adopted as either pups or adults, we don't know their back ground, temperament of parents etc. so you don't have a clue of what you get/have.


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## bizz352 (Feb 10, 2015)

huntergreen said:


> you are correct, we dont know a thing about you but can make assumptions based on the emotionalism that comes through in your posts. stats rarely tell the entire issue and often can be manipulated as per an agenda. ie: define serious bodily harm? of course my statement works both ways, could be worse than the stats show.
> 
> dont fool yourself, how you choose to protect, yourself, family and animals concerns all of us as we will have to deal with the consequences and ensuing new rules and regs caused by others actions. your clear dislike of bully breeds comes through loud and clear. the problem with this is, what breed makes your next most dangerous breed list? i mean a jack russell can be pretty fieisty. gonna just drop em if they get to close for your liking?
> 
> ...


Ok I’ll bite. Where in my post did I insinuate that I was going to go around dropping bully breeds??? I simply stated that I carry a pepper based dog repellent spray when I run and when I walk my dog. I also stated that I don’t trust it to stop an attacking pit and I’m considering carrying a handgun. Thats hardly a deceleration that I'm going start committing genocide of the breed. 

Now as far as the dog that charged my wife and dog. That dog jumped out of the back of a pick up truck going 30 to 35 MPH. Once again if I was in the front yard and was strapped I probably would of dropped it. I have no idea what its intentions are, and based on past experience I’m going to assume its in attack mode. Also I’m on MY PROPERTY, and I have every right under my states laws to defend myself and my dog. And given the size of my yard a dog at a full gallop can be at my front door from the road in about 2 to 3 seconds. That's not a lot of time to make a decision. I’ve got a lot of money and time invested in my puppy so far. She is well on her way to becoming a friendly, well behaved and well adjusted dog. I’m not going jeopardize that because some yahoo didn’t keep his dog under control.

Next I need to address what you assume is my “hate” of bully breeds. I don’t hate them, I don’t trust them. There is a big difference between the too. If I see a couple running lose I am more than willing to let them be on their way. As long as they don’t pose a threat I’m not going to do a thing to harm them. I am well aware that many factors go into the makeup of a Pits temperament. In fact I acknowledged earlier that the odds are a family pet probably won't maul a child or person. But there is no denying that a Pit Bull is statistically more likely to maul or kill than any other breed of dog. 

I'll admit I'm emotional when it comes to this issue, but not for the reasons most here probably think. After my friends little guy was killed I started to pay more attention to the issue. For one I realized the the Pro Pit propaganda machine is large and powerful. I'm sure some are laughing, but realistically look at the powerful media outlets that present these dogs as sweet cuddly faced family pets. TV shows like Pit Boss, Pit Bulls and Parolees and The Dog Whisper all present these dogs in a positive light. Then during the commercial break you've got Sarah Mclachlan's whinny voice singing "In The Arms of an Angel" over images of a sad eyed pit shaking in the corner. Next you turn on your computer, head to Huffington Post and they have pictures all over the place of Pits cuddling with infants. How freaking irresponsible is that??? Would anybody here seriously condone letting a GSD cuddle up with an infant???? If you think that's OK you should probably reevaluate your prioritys. It only takes a second and what was a cute picture can suddenly become a disaster. 

All this propaganda leads to fur baby parents everywhere heading to shelters and adopting dogs with questionable historys. They trust that the Human society to to the proper testing and adopt them a safe and stable pet. Sadly that isn't always the case, all too often they end up with a nervy dog with aggression issues that they aren't equipped to handle. Just last week a six year old was killed by a pit in NC that was adopted to them just a couple weeks earlier. Dog in Fatal Attack Adopted from Asheville Humane Society - WLOS - Asheville Top Stories - ABC This particular agency also ran a special on Pit adoptions, what a deal 10 bucks for a dead family member or possible lawsuit These agency's need to remember that their responsibility isn't to get as many Pits as they can out the door. Their responsibility is to get each family the safest most stable pet they can. They should be educating them about what raising each breed in-tales and the risks associated with each breed. 


You will notice I'm addressing hunter in a calm yet firm matter. I'm just affording him the same respect he gave me. Now as far as my treatment of other members of this BBS during this discussion. I agree I did get snarky but only after they got snarky with me.


> DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HATE ON PIT BULLS THREAD!!! You obviously have NO real experience with the Pit Bull breed what so ever


. 



> Now, we've seen your kind before too. You talk a big story, but if you got to talk about it, you probably don't have the guts to actually carry or use a gun. Good for the critters. Just remember that most of us have walked through a life amid the threat of dog attacks, and somehow, we, most of us women, have not had to pull out a 38 and dispatch a dog. We have managed to keep ourselves, our children, and our dogs safe from stray dogs of all shapes and sizes.


My response was not over the top, these two wanted to pick a fight because of my opinion so I responded in kind. I was a member here back in the early 2000s, I remember very well how this board works. Anybody that posts an unpopular opinion is often attacked and shouted down by the herd. I get it, it doesn't bother me but don't expect me to sit back and not respond in a similar manner. 

Last but not least you asked what I've done in my community to combat the lose dog problem. I have asked to the town to actually enforce the lose dog ordinances since its always the same dogs getting lose. This is a tough one for me because I don't believe in breed bans. I think everybody should be able to own whatever kind of dog they want. I also think BSL is a very slippery slope, you are right when you say after pits whats next??? As GSD owners I think we should all oppose breed bans. Our breed has been known to bite, disfigure and kill and some day the nanny staters might decide to come after it. I think education is the key to the pit problem. I don't care what anybody says, these dogs are not suitable for homes with small pets or small children. The pro family dog faction is winning at the moment but in the long run they are not doing the breed any favors. Its time for them to grow up, forget the propaganda and be realistic about what these dogs where bred to do and the consequences of their actions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> My take on pit bulls is this:
> 
> They are not inherently bad dogs. I don't like them, but that doesn't mean they're objectively bad. I take a, "Don't like pit bulls? Don't have one" stance personally (meaning I don't want to be responsible for one, ever, but far be it from me to say you can't have one if you want to).
> 
> ...


I don't see any need to beat you to the punch?? Those are "objective" observations and clearly visible for all to see. 

The nearest, dogs I don't know, get to mine would be at a vet office. My dogs are under control, so I can keep my eye on "strange" dogs. Other that..no dog I don't know gets close enough to mine to attack, regardless of breed or size! That's the way "we" roll.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

bizz...fair enough. tks for the reply. i combined the tone in all your posts. sounds like you i agree would be in agreement then. welcome back to the forum.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

*Breed v. dogs being animals?*

To be fair, I had a cousin-in-law (about a month before her wedding) sitting in the family room of her maid of honor with fiance and the MoH's dalmatian, whom all were acquainted with and was known to be "cool and calm". Unprovoked (honestly it could have been a sudden innocuous movement by cousin-in-law), the dalmatian attacked my cousin-in-law and caused severe damage to her face, down to the nerves in her cheek. 

I think that any dog has the unpredictability of an animal in any circumstance, regardless of breed. I think this contradicts my "Chow" comment above---but everyone has different experiences with different dogs that color how we preconceive different breeds. I also believe that a dog, regardless of breed, may require continual maintenance training (I *know* Leo does!!) either through a class or socialization or 1 on 1 trainer. We used to have our trainer come out bi-weekly (when Leo was "learning"). We continue to reiterate his training and now see our trainer once a month or as needed. Talk about unpredictability---Leo has now taken to barking at bushes and horses and bike riders while we are in the car (never really did that before)--scares the s*** out of me (pardon the language but seriously, a bush about 500 meters out in a forest preserve and a deep, spontaneous bark has almost caused the ole Jetta to fly off the road in a ball of flames!!!) We have the trainer coming at the beginning of August. 

And a side note to stonevintage, I wasn't making light of your preparedness (a couple days ago/above--re: "thought process"); to the contrary, the idea of having a stick or mace or gun or whatever is pragmatic---it was the detail of where you would hit with ice pick and whatnot that, for me, I normally don't read on a board and gave me pause (and something I probably took out of context of the whole reply). I agree that, especially when walking your pup alone, preparedness is key.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Bizz352, I made the statement, "I've seen your kind before too" specifically because you said that in the post just before it to someone else.

But, it is a pet-peeve of mine, and I just can't let it go when people start talking about how they are going to shoot dogs. It's usually guys. Don't want to be sexist here, but we're supposed to be the "weaker sex" and yet most women can manage to keep their animals safe without carrying a gun and shooting dogs.

The exception to this is farmers, people with livestock. I understand why people shoot loose dogs in the country, why farmers will shoot dogs that are likely to harrass or kill their livestock/horses. In most places, that is both acceptable and expected. 

Not every guy who says they are going to shoot a loose dog, is going to do it. Most are full of hot air. The thing is, there are some young or immature, or intellectually challenged guys who will read all the these statements about how people are going to shoot dogs, and they are going to go and do it. 

So far a couple of dogs have been killed/shot by people in dog parks for Heaven's sake. The one was a husky and while they can be deadly to small dogs, the gun owner had a shepherd and the husky was a regular at the park and was just coming over. Bear-bear is dead because people are thinking about, talking about, spewing about how they would shoot a dog if it does this or that. And Bear-bear is not the only dog that did not need to die. 

Remember, if you own a shepherd, than anyone and everyone can make a case that they were frightened of what your dog might do. Shooting a dog because of what it might do to your dog, in most places is not ok. If the dog is attacking you or another human, then you can do what you want. But shooting a dog because you are afraid it might attack your dog will get you in a world of hurt, and everyone ought to hear than when people start discussing how they are going to shoot dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

bizz352 said:


> My response was not over the top...


Yeah actually it kinda was! 




bizz352 said:


> Last but not least you asked what I've done in my community to combat the lose dog problem. I have asked to the town to actually enforce the lose dog ordinances since its always the same dogs getting lose. This is a tough one for me because I don't believe in breed bans. I think everybody should be able to own whatever kind of dog they want. I also think BSL is a very slippery slope, you are right when you say after pits whats next???


That is admirable the laws are on the books and people should face consequences for "not" controlling there dogs! Pretty much no debate about that I would assume??






bizz352 said:


> As GSD owners I think we should all oppose breed bans. Our breed has been known to bite, disfigure and kill and some day the nanny staters might decide to come after it. I think education is the key to the pit problem. I don't care what anybody says, these dogs are not suitable for homes with small pets or small children. The pro family dog faction is winning at the moment but in the long run they are not doing the breed any favors. Its time for them to grow up, forget the propaganda and be realistic about what these dogs where bred to do and the consequences of their actions.


A mixed bag here but by and large a lot of truth! 

Most rescues "don't" train there dogs, they work on placing them in new homes. The skill of the owners in actually being able to train and control "powerful" breeds is often overlooked. Dog "X" has not attacked another dog under our watch so he must be good??

Papers signed leash handed over and off to the Dog Park we go!

If you combined "Pit Bulls and Parolees" and "Cesar 911" you can see the "cycle." The first show, they find the dog a happy home! The second show Cesar arrives to straighten out the mess months or years down the road, that the "clueless and uninformed have gotten them selves into! 

Pretty much as simple as that! As always...it's not about the dog it's about the owner!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> I don't see any need to beat you to the punch?? Those are "objective" observations and clearly visible for all to see.
> 
> The nearest, dogs I don't know, get to mine would be at a vet office. My dogs are under control, so I can keep my eye on "strange" dogs. Other that..no dog I don't know gets close enough to mine to attack, regardless of breed or size! That's the way "we" roll.


They are visible, but inevitably somebody feels a need to point out that any dog can bite and any big dog can cause damage. Which are absolutely true, but beside the point, so I just decided to point that out so it was clear I'm aware of that fact.


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