# Raw Food webinar



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Did anyone attend the Dogs Naturally Raw Feeding webinar yesterday? If you did, what did you think? They will have more in the future.
I do like their magazine.
According to this presentation it was recommended to add whole raw fish instead of fish oil as fish oil oxidizes. Raw fish provides brain, eyes and reproductive organs which is missing in many raw diets. Also to get Vit. D, dogs need to eat prey that has lived outside since Vit. D is produced in skin, feathers and hair by sun light. If this is true, many of the raw fed dogs should be deficient in many nutrients. 
Curious what your thoughts are.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

I was there:greet:

I was totally surprised with the emphasis she placed on fresh fish. The smaller the better ie: sardines/anchovies and the like. Canned didn't seem to matter. That was also a surprise as I have yet to see canned fish with heads and guts intact which, as you mentioned, was the main reasoning behind using fish. Maybe I should be shopping at bait shops? 

Other than that, I was very comfortable with the presentation and look forward to more. When I looked up the fat/protein ratio for the dinner I fed Traveler last night, I wanted to crawl under a rock. I settled for giving him a can or sardines today eace:


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

I was there as well.:smile2:

I also was surprised with the emphasis on fresh fish. I agree that fish oil does oxidize but I do think that you need to know how the fish is caught and how the oil is processed and handled. I use Sh-Emp EFA Oil blend and have full confidence in the product. When I do give fresh fish to Gator and Flyn its always the smaller species.

The chicken I feed my two are outdoor free range so I was happy about that, as are the beef and lamb and turkey. No feathers though. :surprise:

I have researched raw feeding quite a bit but there are always new and changing thoughts, always something to learn, so I like to attend sources such as this webinar.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I was also there. She is not the first one that I have heard recommend feeding oily fish instead of fish oils. The fat Vs. protein content of the diets we feed was rather enlightening. The organ meats and tripe I feed is from grass fed animals. I wish we had more time to ask for analysis of better diets and not just feeding chicken backs. Also, was interesting that she didn't really discuss eggs except in the conversation with milk. Eggs are part of the diet of many carnivores especially from ground nesting birds. For a wolf or feral dog to find eggs during part of the year to eat would not be uncommon. Obviously, though, they would not be going out and milking an animal to make yogurt, Kifir, or cottage cheese. 

I found it informative. Just wish, as I said above, we had more time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wished they mentioned which kind of fish are safe to feed. Smelt is safe? It seems to be related to or are they young salmon? Talapia (questionable the way they raise them). Anyone know which raw fish is safe to feed?
Every time I study/research I sit under the rock with Traveler's Mom. Deja gets a lot of variety. Her skinned chicken(back)s have never seen sun and although tempting I have never brought home road kill bunnies. But she looks great and is healthy and active. I am sometimes thinking about raising bunnies for Deja's meat. I then would call them "rabbits", doesn't sound so cute as "bunnies". I wish I could bring myself to killing them. It is such cute meat.
All in all I enjoyed the webinar; food for thought.


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Wolfy I remember hearing mackerel, sardines and anchovies. She said small fish that eat plant life not other fish.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Wish had been able to see it. What is one to do with a dog that is sensitive/allergic to fish. I also wonder how often wild/feral dogs or wolf counter parts actually eat fish. Not arguing they need the omega 3 fatty acids. Just wondering other sources in the true prey model diet. Thoughts???

Would someone who saw the webinar fill me in on the fat vs. protein information.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Didn't watch the webinar or anything but mackerel wouldn't be an ideal fish because of high mercury content. Bait shops would have relatively fresh sardines if you're in a coastal area. Otherwise I'm guessing canned would be fine. But if feeding raw, and if you're feeding organ meat like you should be, your dog should be getting omega fatty acids and DHA. The reason fish and fish oil is recommended is because it's more concentrated in fish. This is because DHA grows in algae and then it's eaten by small fish that are eaten by bigger fish all the way up the chain. I don't think wild dogs or wolves eat much fish or fish oil pills but they eat just about every part of whatever animal they kill or scavenge. 

Since I didn't see the webinar I am curious as to what it says about the fat to protein content of pet diets and why most of you are shocked


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

part of their argument against fish oil is declining fish stock , legitimate concern , which is why there is a product with shelf stable plant and renewable sourced Camelina oil as the primary provider of omega 3.

not EPA or DHA which comes from marine sources = accumulative storage in cold water fish and seals .

if you are worried about contaminants then the flesh is the part to worry about .

when I get my oil - I get a lab certificate - free of contaminants -- flesh part - the fish meal is certified organic and used in animal feed and agricultural with those that have and want to maintain that coveted status 

here is a lab report - not "my" lab's report Is fish oil safe? Is it contaminated with mercury and PCBs?

The flesh of fish is expected to be much more mercury-heavy than, say, purified fish oil supplements
and --- the concentration is considered much less than what would be found in whole fish. 
from https://labdoor.com/article/contaminants-in-fish-oil-supplements-and-how-to-avoid-them 

now that article mentions selenium -- rich sources of selenium are grass fed beef, turkey, chicken , beef liver , eggs and sunflower seeds and sesame seeds.


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

The mackerel mentioned was N Atlantic mackerel. The mercury content is lower than other mackerel species.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I also attended. I believe that she said the fat to protein ratio should be 1:2 so 10 percent fat 20 percent protein. Too much fat "cannibalizes" nutrients. But I don't quite understand what that men's exactly.

First time ever attending a webinar. I got a lot out of it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Heartandsoul said:


> I also attended. I believe that she said the fat to protein ratio should be 1:2 so 10 percent fat 20 percent protein. Too much fat "cannibalizes" nutrients. But I don't quite understand what that men's exactly.
> 
> First time ever attending a webinar. I got a lot out of it.


 I'm not quite sure what that means either. Fat is essential to vitamin and nutrient absorption in some instances. At 10 percent fat, 20 percent protein, that would leave 70 percent of the calories to come from carbs. Which I can't imagine being a good thing. I wonder how many carbs a wild dog or wolf would eat


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

never heard of fat cannibalizing nutrients.

are you sure that is what they said and not

fat catabolizes? this would be the breakdown from large molecules
into smaller molecules that can be used to build muscle .

digestion is a catabolic event.

I know a little bit back from the day when I sat in on Vet panels studying extreme canine
sports or physical exertion using a friend's professional sled dog team training for the Yukon Quest.
When protein and energy can not be supplied in quick enough and adequate amounts during exetion
the body will start to catabolize its own protein resources - bloody diarrhea being one out come.
In this case the catabolic rate is too high. 
so there is anabolic and catabolic processes.

any body builders around - where is a body builder when you need one? lol

I have no idea how this applies to fats ???


eating feathers and hair --- does any one remember in the badder old days of kibble when there was feather dust and hair (horse hair) in kibble ? This was indigestible filler .

quote 
"Lime treatment of keratinous materials for the generation of highly digestible animal feed: 1.
Chicken feathers. ... Without appropriate processing, feather meal has little nutritive value because
keratin is not degraded by most proteolytic enzymes; the rumen digestibility of keratin

and quote " Poultry science, 1966 - ps.oxfordjournals.org
Abstract FEATHER meal has been shown to be of value as a protein source

keratin -- same substance that produces nails -- feed a dog a chicken foot , what comes out the same as it 
went in ? the chicken nail .

dog eats a squirrel -- out comes the proof - the teeth and the fur 

the Speery study -- repeated less than a decade ago to determine what coyotes and wild canids fed upon used their scat -- the remaining hairs in the stool were used for DNA to match to a prey animal - like wise with feathers -- young birds , and the developing still-in-egg chicks were eaten whole - larger mature birds feathers discarded. 

I see this any time I go to the back of my acres --- a studied coyote route --- and I can see an explosion of wild turkey feathers post feasting -- or bunny fluff all over - which the dogs pick up and have some fun with .

interesting stuff


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Protein : Fat = 2 : 1 according to the webinar The more fat, the less vitamins and minerals.
This webinar has made me insecure about raw feeding. In the wild they don't eat sardines or mackerel and I am not a hunter t provide her with all these goodies.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Protein : Fat = 2 : 1 according to the webinar The more fat, the less vitamins and minerals.
> This webinar has made me insecure about raw feeding. In the wild they don't eat sardines or mackerel and I am not a hunter t provide her with all these goodies.


 they shouldn't need those things if they're getting bone and organ meat in addition to the muscle and fat. In the wild they would get all this. I think a lot of new raw feeders think it's as easy as grinding up some hamburger and carrots(another thing I doubt they eat in the wild) and feeding it to them. But as it turns out it isn't so simple. Fat is a source of energy so even if it's lacking in vitamins and nutrients is still important. So slacking on fat means increasing carbs and that's a bad thing. Or overloading on protein which could be hard on the kidneys and that's a bad thing. Is there a better rule out there that anyone knows of - a split such as 50/30/20 so 50% protein, 30% fat, and 20% carbs - or something similar. A 2:1 ratio just seems like it's leaving a lot out of the equation


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Protein : Fat = 2 : 1 according to the webinar The more fat, the less vitamins and minerals.
> This webinar has made me insecure about raw feeding. In the wild they don't eat sardines or mackerel and I am not a hunter t provide her with all these goodies.


still don't get it .

the more fat the earlier the satiation point the less the dog eats other things so ingests less vitamins and minerals ???

go back to Billinghurst , Schultze -- Juliette de Baïracli Levy .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I only give fish oil if I run out of fish and I give herring versus salmon. For whole fish they get sardines, smelt, mackeral and herring. I do not give salmon anything. This is mostly due to allergies, but I don't trust salmon(contamination). I try to give fresh fish at least 3 times a week.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Smelt doesn't have the risk of the salmon poisoning?


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Smelt doesn't have the risk of the salmon poisoning?


 any anadromous fish can be a carrier. It's not the salmon itself but a parasite that the salmon carries with it. It's a pretty serious thing come to find out. 90% of untreated dogs will die from it, according to the internet.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Smelt doesn't have the risk of the salmon poisoning?


They get smelt the least often and I haven't heard anything bad. From what I understand the problem is the bigger fish. They potentially can carry more poison because of their size. I try to stay with the smaller fish.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

So far I haven't been able to find whole fish to feed. I will try the Asian Market again. The frozen fish in the grocery store are already cleaned, and almost always cod, tilapia, salmon.

I can order whiting from my bulk raw dealer, but I think it's also cleaned/no head. Not sure about the mackerel they advertise and they are doing maintenance on the website right now.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Guys,
I think there is some confusion or maybe I got the story wrong but the 10% fat-20% protein subject is not 100% minus 10%fat minus 20%protein=70% something else. I feel pretty confident she was talking about the meat portion of the meal being a 1:2 ratio fat to protein.

Another thing she said was to totally avoid Pacific Ocean fish due to contamination and smaller is better to avoid cumulative toxic loads created when big fish eat small fish. I think she said something like (algae and photoplankton ?) were the most nutrient rich and that was the idea behind the fish focus? If that's true, I would have expected her to beat a louder drum for those to be included rather than repeating fish-fish-fish.

I agree that it would have been super nice to have more typical raw fed meals scrutinized and suggest adjustments to those meals but since there was only a limited amount of time allotted, maybe the next webinar will cover that.

I'll admit I fed Traveler kibble with meat toppers the last few meals since I think I'm a wanna be raw feed dummy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I finally found a source of flash frozen whole sardines through My Pet Carnivore. They have a warehouse in IN and deliver all over the mid-west. I know they do Fed-Ex, but not sure about shipping to someplace like TX.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

carmspack said:


> never heard of fat cannibalizing nutrients.
> 
> are you sure that is what they said and not
> 
> ...


Carmen, I was quite sure that is what I was hearing but, with your explanation of catabolizing (a word that I'm not familiar with) I am no longer sure. Maybe someone can verify which word was used as it would be unfair if I gave incorrect information. In any case, thanks for your explanations.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

H&S, I heard what you heard. Cannibalize 
I took it to mean they were eaten or somehow assimilated by fats rendering them unavailable to be utilized.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Traveler's Mom, thanks for verifying. This whole raw feeding has been such a continuing education that I find fascinating.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Maybe the person leading the seminar doesn't know the difference between the two words and is the one who's confused? Or they misspoke?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The impression I got (I didn't really hear what word she use) was that in order to get the necessary nutrients in a high fat diet, one will end up making the dog fat. There is more nutrition coming from the protein source than the fat source, thus, we should limit the fat to 1/2 the protein. So, when we feed a diet higher in fat than in protein, the dog is not able to get the necessary nutrients while maintaining good body condition. We are starving them of nutrition. That is my take on it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm guessing the ratio must've been in terms of grams? You can't weight out 2 lbs of pure protein and add it to one pound of pure fat. Did she specify any recommended ranges of ideal macronutrients? For instance in humans it's recommended that you get about 2 grams of protein per kg of body weight. I saw something one time that suggested a dogs ideal diet would be somewhere around 50+% protein, 30% fat, and 14% carbs. I know the numbers don't add up cuz it was either 56% protein or something but I can't remember for sure. 

Anyway I'm rambling here but it would make it way easier to feed raw or any other diet if we can break it down this way.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

How does one figure out this fat/protein ratio being that the fat/protein content of different animal meats vary? UGH!!!


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

That would be much easier if you broke it down to percentage of calories rather than a ratio. So for instance if the dog needs 1000 calories and we say 56% from protein, 30% from fat, and 14% from carbs that breaks down to 560/300/140 as calories. Protein and carbs are 4 calories per gram and fat is 9 calories per gram. So his diet would be 140/33/35 protein, fat, carbs as grams. Now all you need is google and a weight scale and it's really easy to portion out the right macros.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

thegooseman90 said:


> I'm guessing the ratio must've been in terms of grams? You can't weight out 2 lbs of pure protein and add it to one pound of pure fat. Did she specify any recommended ranges of ideal macronutrients? For instance in humans it's recommended that you get about 2 grams of protein per kg of body weight. I saw something one time that suggested a dogs ideal diet would be somewhere around 50+% protein, 30% fat, and 14% carbs. I know the numbers don't add up cuz it was either 56% protein or something but I can't remember for sure.
> 
> Anyway I'm rambling here but it would make it way easier to feed raw or any other diet if we can break it down this way.


I didn't watch the webinar but surely you can't be expected to know the pure protein and fat content... isn't more of a general protein and fat that was being spoken about?
So beef/chicken/kangaroo etc is your protein
Coconut oil, lard, eggs are your fat

So you feed 100g of chicken and 50g coconut oil? Just as an example.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

If you're saying the source vs the content I guess that could be it. To me not really because your beef, kangaroo, etc isn't pure protein. It all contains some fat. Even in your example of chicken, which is really lean, it has fat. Overall I just don't see how that ratio could work out. Let's take the example of 100g of chicken and 50g of coconut oil. That's 27g protein to 50g(or close to it as coconut oil is basically pure fat). As you can see the ratios are way off and that's 670 calories, out of potentially only 1000 the dog should eat - which I have no idea if that's true or not. 

In general I don't think the 2:1 ratio makes any sense. I think the split I mention earlier - 56/30/14 - makes a lot more sense on paper. And really it would be much easier to just scale it out and get the proper nutrition to your dogs. Maybe someone could chime in on it and give us more insight on a dogs ideal caloric needs and see if a split like that makes sense.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

She pointed us to the USDA site which lists assorted meats and cuts of those meats. You can even select skin/no skin. Bone/no bone.

I googled and cannot find the exact database she was using but I happened to find this.
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/nutrients

I'll post the db link when I find the right one unless someone else has it handy already.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Gooseman,

Gosh, I feel like I work for this woman or something. I Don't and have no clue about any of this. I am only relaying what I think I heard.

Where your example goes wrong is that the 1:2 ratio does not apply to the weight of the meat itself. I still can't find the exact website but it shows how much protein and how much fat is in a given cut of meat  

The 1:2 ratio was based on the protein number given. The fat portion of the ratio took the meat fat into account along with whatever other fats are fed.

I'm supposed to be working but I've been Googling for the stupid website instead. I better delete my history before I go home tonight :wink2:


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Traveler's Mom, I'm pretty sure that the only web site she suggested was the one you posted. I was playing around with it earlier, selecting meats that I use and the functions allow for several species to be compared in the same chart. The drop down boxes that I saw her using looked pretty similar to what this site has. 

In any case the USDA site offers a really nice tool for finding nutrient values. You just have to look for raw as opposed to cooked when choosing.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Traveler's Mom said:


> Gooseman,
> 
> Gosh, I feel like I work for this woman or something. I Don't and have no clue about any of this. I am only relaying what I think I heard.
> 
> ...


 this is what I was saying. The only way this could make sense is if it was in terms of grams of proteins vs fats. The example above was in regards to someone's question and they provided an example of 100g chicken to 50g coconut oil and I just pointed out it wouldn't work. So this way makes a little more sense. So if the dog gets 100g of protein he should get 50g of fat? That's 850 of his calories right there, of the theoretical 1000(still haven't got a definitive answer yet). It's still a little off because only 47% of his calories are from protein and the other 53% is coming from fat. I'd definitely prefer this over the typical 50% of calories from carbs that you see in a lot of kibbles. I'll take fat as an energy source over glucose any day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

feeding raw shouldn't be and isn't that difficult.

balance over time .

go back to Billinghurst as your primer.

wild prey - nice idea --- but in reality dogs have had a non-wild prey diet since they chose human association .

you want good clean protein, minerals , macro and trace, clean fat , clean water , sources of vitamins and antioxidants

there are university studies which were conducted over a 5 year period examining the full gut content of wild and feral canids (includes pet dogs abandoned for economic reasons to fend for themselves during the dust bowl years) 

then some almost 90 years later a published study analyzing the gut content of coyote on the eastern seaboard comes up with nearly identical contents.

there is a British program where the narrator / researcher lives with indigenous groups of people - including nomads in Nepal - and steamy jungle - there is the ubiquitous dog --- and you see how food is shared with them.

without a dog I don't think human history would be what it is .


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This really is making something that should be so very simple, extremely scarey and daunting for most. At best, it will push more to feel incompetent and unable to manage a balanced raw diet and instead reverting back to a dead kibble.

Stick with basics, it's proven and works. Balance over time or go with a prey model feeding program just like nature intended, 80-10-5-5.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is what I feed Deja over time: turkey neck, chicken back, ground turkey, green tripe, beef heart, beef lung, beef liver, lamb kidney, eggs. coconut oil, kelp, some fruits, kelp, frozen mix of tripe and organ meat from Greentripe.com.
Every day she gets MB, MM and organs from this selection. She is doing great on it so instead of wrecking my brain and resorting to feeding kibble I have decided to stick with it for her evening meal and some kibble in the AM.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

I wrote this whole dissertation and don't know what happened to it. Never showed up but what I basically wrote is that Carmspack and Saphire are correct that it should not be rocket science. BUT! I read on here and on a raw feeding forum about don't forget this, not too much of that, need some of this or that, etc. etc. etc. That's what freaks newbies like me out of feeding totally raw.
Traveler has serious medical condition that, by all rights, he shouldn't even be here so I can't afford to screw things up. I usually feed Orijen in the AM and raw at night but I confessed earlier in this thread that after watching the webinar, I backed off and fed kibble only for several days even tho I know raw makes more sense and is better for him. I've read too many times bad raw feeding is worse then good kibble feeding. What's a girl to do??

He doesn't do well on chicken and finding RMB in pork or beef or lamb is not a walk in the park. He barfed up a chunk of pork neck recently so I took that off my list. They are usually cut crosswise and not very thick so I should have known it wasn't a good choice. My bad. The lamb selection is pretty limited so that's not working well for me either.

His raw is usually combos of chunks of beef or pork roasts, heart, veal or beef liver & kidney, my "saw dust" which is the butchers saw shavings (marrow, bone bits, meat bits). I give eggs a couple times a week. I top kibble meals with bone broth and my minced raw veggie combo of kale, carrots, collard greens, broccoli, and squash or just a tbs. or so of dried kelp.

He's getting a whole slew of supplements as medicine but I doubt any are considered foodstuff other than fish & coconut oils.

2 cups kibble AM 1 1/3 lbs raw PM


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I can get turkey necks, chicken backs, beef liver, heart and kidney whole sale because I have a registered business name ($50 for two years). That might be an option for you, Travelersmom.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

What a good idea, Wolfy! I never thought of that and it's easy enough to do.

I'm guessing there will be a tick up in the number of d/b/a's soon ;-)


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I too have an issue with the bone portion of the raw diet. Ziva is allergic to so many things. So I use lamb and goat tails for some bone content and the rest is from human food grade bone meal powder.


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