# Thought the breeder was good but...*sigh* VA breeders?



## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

Ugg I think I made a mistake. About 9 months ago we went into the market for a GSD and did a lot of research and tried to find a good breeder. I thought we found one so we got on the waiting list and now the puppies are ready in about 4 weeks. However, she’s sent weekly pictures and every picture she’s sent has shown the puppies inside a kennel outside. There’s a lot of debate among the books and websites I’ve read on raising a puppy but one thing that is crystal clear is that this is a bad deal. They all say the puppy should be inside and have a designated spot to pee. From what I can see there laying on newspaper and the newspaper looks soiled. I see several puppies sitting in there own pee in fact. I've attached the picture. Or am I just worrying to much?

She took a $200 non refundable deposit but at this point I think it’s worth losing the deposit. Are there any good breeders out there that are affordable though. I just can’t afford to spend 2 grand on a dog. Do you all know of any breeders that are decent in the Virginia, NC or Maryland area that don’t cost 2k?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

OMG that's discusting! If the breeder isn't afraid to show you that picture imagine what's she's NOT showing you. Ick.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

We bought Nara from a breeder in VA Beach when we were still living in Hampton. Everything with them has been great! Here's their website:

Vom Engels German Shepherds

Good luck, and let me know if you need anything else!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Have you gone to visit the breeder? I can't really tell based on the picture. Usually the puppies are in a whelping box until a certain age but the box has to be kept clean and safe.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would probably walk away, but I would go check the place out first, see how they are living.


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

yea we did go and see the breeders; however, this was about 3-4 months ago when no puppies were available. She seemed OK then. I wasn't blown away but she was ok. 

How much are the Vom Engels German Shepherds. Any idea?


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## GROVEBEAUTY (Oct 23, 2008)

I would visit, but my first instinct is to walk away. You said when you visited it was okay. If I visited a breeder and thought they were okay, I would walk away. There are too many great breeders to settle for what you can get.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

That does look pretty disgusting.  Poor babies. $2K for a pup??? WOW!


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

No they aren't 2k. These are 850. I'm saying I don't want to spend 2k for a pup.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Oh I see, well for a working line pup from a reputable breeder you should expect to pay any where from $1200 to $1500. If you are looking at showlines then yeah... $2000++


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

here are some breeders in NC...

Fran San German Shepherd Breeders Of North Carolina

Johnson-Haus German Shepherd Breeder/Dog Trainer, Raleigh North Carolina (this is the on I would personally go to when we start looking for another pup). The site is impressive but i havent talked to them personally as i dont do that kind of thing until we're serious about basically interviewing breeders


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

For the record, Fran San is American lines, and Johnson-Haus is working lines.

What line of dog are you looking for?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Xeph said:


> For the record, Fran San is American lines, and Johnson-Haus is working lines.
> 
> What line of dog are you looking for?


 
oops yeah sorry. forgot to post that. i have working and show line dogs so i'm not actually picky. I can work nicely with both.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Yes, we (Johnson-Haus) breed West German Working lines.


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

I think I want a working line. I'm looking for a family companion type dog, to follow us in our young active life, my wifes a runner and I'm an outdoor kinda guy (fishing, camping, etc.) and that will also add some protection for the home.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Yes, we (Johnson-Haus) breed West German Working lines.


 
wait! thats you guys?! wow. thats awesome. sorry for any insult,if any. I would love to have one of your pups in our family! They're gorgeous dogs, very impressive.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

geissap said:


> I think I want a working line. I'm looking for a family companion type dog, to follow us in our young active life, my wifes a runner and I'm an outdoor kinda guy (fishing, camping, etc.) and that will also add some protection for the home.



You can get these qualities from working lines, show lines, or even animal shelter/rescue lines.  I've fostered dogs from working lines, show lines, and byb pet lines and to be honest for the average family any of these is a great family companion, running buddy, camping partner, and visual deterrent/alarm system.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> You can get these qualities from working lines, show lines, or even animal shelter/rescue lines.  I've fostered dogs from working lines, show lines, and byb pet lines and to be honest for the average family any of these is a great family companion, running buddy, camping partner, and visual deterrent/alarm system.


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

Emoore said:


> You can get these qualities from working lines, show lines, or even animal shelter/rescue lines.  I've fostered dogs from working lines, show lines, and byb pet lines and to be honest for the average family any of these is a great family companion, running buddy, camping partner, and visual deterrent/alarm system.


Yea, I actually stumbled across this website today after getting frustrated with the breeder thing. This looks to be a fantastic website. 

Virginia German Shepherd Rescue, Inc. Main

The problem that I find with most of the rescue places is they're really anal. And usually it's over the top. I've done my reading. I've done a TON of reading. These rescue centers make it sound like no one on earth who has a full time job can handle a GSD which is simply untrue. As soon as I tell them that my wife and I work an 8 hour job they pretty much hang up the phone. The dog will be left alone for 4 hours then i get home for lunch then 3 hours until I get home for the day. I also plan on taking a few days off to get the dog settled into our it's new home. I'm confident that I can give the dog the attention they deserve with a full time job...

They're having a huge adoption event at Petsmart through this rescue club that we may check out on Sunday. I've emailed a couple of the foster parents already. Ski looks like a great fit for us. I think he's on page 2.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

KZoppa said:


> wait! thats you guys?! wow. thats awesome. sorry for any insult,if any. I would love to have one of your pups in our family! They're gorgeous dogs, very impressive.


 
No insults. Thank you though.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

geissap said:


> Yea, I actually stumbled across this website today after getting frustrated with the breeder thing. This looks to be a fantastic website.
> 
> Virginia German Shepherd Rescue, Inc. Main
> 
> ...


 
I like Juelz and Zoey :wub:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm also located in central Virginia. My dogs are primarily European working lines, some DDR (East German) and one current show-working cross litter, which produced some really nice pups.

Feel free to email ([email protected]) or PM for more information,

Christine


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

What you say about rescues being picky is true. I'm with the Austin, TX GSD rescue and it says right on our website that we're looking for the best of the best homes for our foster dogs. That said, we _will_ adopt to homes where both adults work full-time, homes without fenced yards, and even apartments. We're looking for the quality of people and their commitment to the dog, not what their household arrangement is like because that can change.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Exactly what Emoore said. Though with puppies, we always like to see some kind of arrangements made for long periods of alone time - not quitting a job, or trying to sneak them to work as your infant...but things I am thinking most breeders would want for their pups too!


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

I definitely understand what Jean and Emoore are saying don't get me wrong. But I also know what kind of person my wife and I are, and we want a dog so much. We've been looking for over a year cause we're so picky, but we've found some great matches and we weren't even called back on applications simply because we both worked 8 hour jobs. In an economy like this your gonna face normal people work 8 hour jobs! At least give me the time of day to call and present my opinions and ideas on dog training, let me sell myself, meet me, etc.

I always get stuff like well you can't get a GSD or you can't get a GSD that's less then 8 years old. Blah blah blah. I know that my wife and I can care for a GSD that's younger. I have several friends and relatives who have GSD's and they are well trained and behaved dogs and they work more than me and spend periods of 6-7 hours alone in a day. I'm all for books and such, but sometimes I think these guys get a little to wrapped up in what they read somewhere one time and it just sticks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

geissap said:


> we weren't even called back on applications simply because we both worked 8 hour jobs.


Not trying to be a smart-a**, but how do you know that's why they didn't call you back, if they didn't call you back?


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Geez, I counted 10 or 11 of those poor babies  in that box - it appears that the box is pretty dirty. I would jump off a bridge before I would subject any of my puppies to that! I'm very surprised that the breeder had no hesitation in sending you the photo. Even though I would be tempted to "rescue" these puppies I agree that you should walk away! 
I guess I'm too old and been around for too long but when I see puppies for sale for less than $1200.00 I get nervous. It suggests to me that there wasn't enough testing and prenatal care for the mom and not enough $$ spent on the care of the puppies.
I'm confident that you will find a reputable breeder in your area.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

EJQ said:


> but when I see puppies for sale for less than $1200.00 I get nervous. It suggests to me that there wasn't enough testing and prenatal care for the mom and not enough $$ spent on the care of the puppies.


I'm sure that $9,600 (8 puppies) is plenty of money for hip and elbow testing, temperament test, food for a mother dog and her puppies, and vet visits. Why GSDs sell for such inflated prices, I'll never understand.


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## Denman (Jul 6, 2009)

Personally if the hips and elbows have been checked I would still go for it... the pup will be forever grateful for getting him/her out of that mess...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> No insults. Thank you though.


 
okay good. wanted to be sure. We actually were thinking about going through you for a pup when we were looking. Okay more me. My husband could care less as long as i'm happy. he's a good guy.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My shelter has you go through and adoption process. I have seen very few people get turned down, but the adoption process is rather long because when we had KLOS adoption event the line for dog adoptions was out the door.


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> My shelter has you go through and adoption process. I have seen very few people get turned down, but the adoption process is rather long because when we had KLOS adoption event the line for dog adoptions was out the door.


Length of time is not an issue. Like I said it's been a year and still running! I tried to adopt a puppy through SOS Pen Pals here in Virginia and the lady just laughed at me when I told her we worked 8 hour days on the phone. She said there's no way that's gonna work and we're gonna need sitters during the day for the dogs etc. etc. etc. She said the only way it'd work is if we had an older dog. Unfortunately we have very active lifestyles and we want a dog that can run, jump, skip without having a heart attack. I want a younger dog that's gonna be a companion with us for awhile. 

From what I'm gathering it sounds like a good GSD breeder runs around 1500 bucks. We may have to save and go after a 1500 dollar pup. That seems like so much money to me for a pup, but I suppose you pay for what you get. This topic has definitely taught me one thing...drop the breeder...eat the 200 and get out.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

geissap, in the situation you describe, "older dog" usually just means one that is past the puppy stage and can go several hours without going potty. A dog that is 2, 3, or even older will be running jumping and skipping for several years 

ETA: a puppy won't be doing any hardcore exercising for quite a while. Over-exertion is very hard on developing hips and elbows!


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Granted, that is not the best whelping box I have seen. But how much of a difference is there between that and wood shavings? I would be more worried about what goes on after they are weaned (i.e. when mom stops cleaning up after them). And who are the parents? And how / what are the pups eating?


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

Uniballer said:


> Granted, that is not the best whelping box I have seen. But how much of a difference is there between that and wood shavings? I would be more worried about what goes on after they are weaned (i.e. when mom stops cleaning up after them). And who are the parents? And how / what are the pups eating?


I don't know the answer to these questions...man I suck at finding a dog! I should've came to these forums LOONG LOONG ago. After talking in this conversation I'm starting to think a 2-3 year old rescue GSD may be a much better idea for me then a puppy. There's so many good German Shepherd rescue places around me. NC and Maryland are both two hours away. And VA has a good one...


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> I'm sure that $9,600 (8 puppies) is plenty of money for hip and elbow testing, temperament test, food for a mother dog and her puppies, and vet visits. Why GSDs sell for such inflated prices, I'll never understand.


If only those were the only expenses related to having puppies... 

What about the expenses to obtain a female who has good bloodlines, health, temperament, and working ability, raise her to breeding age, train and title her (hopefully) if you get her as a puppy (if you buy an older, titled, tested, health-checked dog, then of course you're paying more than puppy price), the cost of progesterone testing to arrange the breeding, the cost for the stud fee and travel, the costs of living in a location that allows you to have GSDs and to whelp a litter of puppies, much less the value of the time and energy and education that a good breeder focuses on breeding and whelping and raising quality puppies.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

geissap said:


> I don't know the answer to these questions...man I suck at finding a dog! I should've came to these forums LOONG LOONG ago. After talking in this conversation I'm starting to think a 2-3 year old rescue GSD may be a much better idea for me then a puppy. There's so many good German Shepherd rescue places around me. NC and Maryland are both two hours away. And VA has a good one...


I have had the pleasure of sharing my life with 5 wonderful dogs over the past 23 years and all were rescues. Adopting through a reputable rescue can be demanding but you do know pretty much what you're ending up with, especially if you get an adult dog. It does take more patience than adopting from some breeders while other breeders are pretty rigorous in their selection process for owners. 

My lifestyle sounds much like yours: I need an active, intelligent and adaptable dog who can travel with me and who enjoys an active lifestyle. It took me several months to find Rafi, my current dog. It was well worth the effort and the wait as he is absolutely perfect for my lifestyle.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Since Blackthorne and GSDBEST both posters to this topic are in your neighborhood, it may benefit you to contact them privately and see what's available/if they having something that would fit the bill for you..

GSDBest has some AWESOME looking puppies in the photo section)


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## Klaus13 (May 18, 2010)

Ok..to start, my mom bred cockers. I pretty much did everything pertaining to pups,vetting,to paperwork.

I was only 14 when she started. We have had cocker pups in larger areas than that pic that was shown. I made sure we never had someone come to view a pup in anything but a clean box,fresh papers even washed them if they managed to get a spot on them!I would think that if you were sending the best possible pics to show your pups,that would not qualify as one. That is terrible! I did count 11 pups in there myself! For $850,they could definitely do better than that homemade box!

I know they would profit that $200 from you,but I would definitely look elsewhere. I admit I got my boy from a BYB, and the premises and conditions of all 11 pups from my boys litter was immaculate! Better than some higher end breeders I may add,not to offend anyone here.I hope you can find the right pup for you. It really bugs me when someone in the situation you're in caves and gets the pup because 1.you already placed a non refundable deposit and 2.feel the need to save it.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i would definitely say to check petfinder.com. i've found so many GSDs on there needing good homes. Its been crazy hard not to contact the rescues for a couple of the dogs they have.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

geissap said:


> Length of time is not an issue. Like I said it's been a year and still running! I tried to adopt a puppy through SOS Pen Pals here in Virginia and the lady just laughed at me when I told her we worked 8 hour days on the phone. She said there's no way that's gonna work and we're gonna need sitters during the day for the dogs etc. etc. etc. She said the only way it'd work is if we had an older dog. Unfortunately we have very active lifestyles and we want a dog that can run, jump, skip without having a heart attack. I want a younger dog that's gonna be a companion with us for awhile.
> 
> From what I'm gathering it sounds like a good GSD breeder runs around 1500 bucks. We may have to save and go after a 1500 dollar pup. That seems like so much money to me for a pup, but I suppose you pay for what you get. This topic has definitely taught me one thing...drop the breeder...eat the 200 and get out.


They people did the adoption process right there. You are bringing another life into your home and he/she will be with you for a long time. So many people came, many got dogs there were a few dogs left. That was in May, we are now almost a full house.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

geissap said:


> No they aren't 2k. These are 850. I'm saying I don't want to spend 2k for a pup.


$850 is too little, beware.


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## geissap (Sep 7, 2010)

I expressed my concerns with the breeder via email and she/he responded immediately with this and I would love to hear your thoughts...

_my pups are in the house, the pictures of the soiled paper was before cleanup, i just woke up, i take them outside now during the day and bring them back in at night. I don't think you have ever had pups before, but they have to be in a whelping box of some kind to keep them safe, they are held everyday, and are very outgoing, that is why i told you to come see them this weekend. 
you are jumping the gun and getting upset for noting i assure you. 
I assure you the way i raise my pups have turned out some awesome dogs. I have them in a whelping box behind my couch in the living room beside my computer desk where i sat a lot. 
i have an exercise pen around the box with blankets on that to give mom a den feeling so she can feel her pups are safe. if she sees another dog, she would charge them and i was afraid she would step on them.
before you accuse me of not raising my pups right and misleading you, i insist you come see them yourself.
the deposits are nonrefundable, and i am sorry you think i misled you, but i did not.
what makes you think i did. you have only seen pic. i told you i would show you pic while they are growing, and pups do potty in the box, there are 11 pups in a 4x4 box. they are only in it at nite now, and are in my puppy pen during the day with lots of toys to keep them stimulated. so tell me the real reason you are wanting to back out of getting a wonderful pup. 
_
*Then she sent a follow up right after*_ please just come see the babies, you will be surprised at how nice they are_
_and outgoing, they are so sweet and so pretty, i have friends that come see them and family that play with them. i promise these pups are raised like you think they should be. as far as letting lots of people handle them, i don't have a football team to come over everyday to play with them, but they get the proper socialization and handling. i have never had a complaint except for one family that bought two pups, and i told them it is hard to raise two pups together, they bond to much to each other, but that is what they wanted, _
_i will never do that again though. _
_so before yo misjudge me, please come see your baby._
_i may be busy, but i am never to busy to play with my pups, and my dogs

_She then followed that up with a reference and an attached email from a previous buyerThen a 4th email with several pictures of her socializing the pups in a much cleaner environment with several different people

Then a 5th email with more pictures from different litters

I'm pretty impressed with all this effort. A bad breeder could've easily took my 200 bucks ran and found another buyer. I know she has a waiting list. I've seen how many people she CC's on the emails sent to me about the puppies. You all sure you aren't jumping to a conclusion based on one picture? Thoughts please! I need as much help as I can get...


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

geissap said:


> Thoughts please! I need as much help as I can get...


Go on and see the pups. I wouldn't act condescending or insulting, but I wouldn't be afraid to ask questions. Ask to see the mom. Ask about the dad, and see him too if he is on the premises. Ask to see the relevant paperwork on the parents (if any is available). Ask about how the pups will be managed after weaning. Ask if this is a repeat breeding, and if so can you meet one or more of the prior litter. Think about everything you saw and heard. Does it fit with what you want from a dog? Does it fit with your minimum expectations? If not, walk away.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Also find out what type of health testing they have done to their dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Also ask what titlesare on the dogs and what they do with dogs. Sch?Showing?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppies have bodily functions. And, eleven will do an awful lot of leaking and pooping. When I have a litter, I move them into a top loading crate while I clean the papers out, and put down fresh, then I start putting the pups back into the box. By the time I lift the last one in, someone has baptised the pen.

I like to give them plenty of room, an indoor area, and outdoor area, and I use a pen out in a grassy shadey spot as well. You do your best to jump in and pick up poop immediately, but no one is there 24/7. 

Puppies poop. It is a fact of life. Yes, she should have waited until after she cleaned the pen before taking photos, and the appearance of the homemade pen with some fencing and some wood DOES look a bit unclean when you add the soiled newspapers. I mean, keeping bare wood sanitary is not necessarily easy either. 

Her explanations suggest that she is doing some socialization and providing them with more room than a 4x4 box. I find the number of e-mails a bit obnoxious, but as you said, she could have taken your $200 and found another buyer.

Will it hurt you to go and see the litter? If the pups are friendly and the dam is, and all seem well cared for, that is what is most important. If the dam and sire have credentials, and the bloodlines you are interested in, then you will not have lost your deposit.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lol @ Selzer "just go and see the litter." It's always "we're just going to look" right up until that sweet fuzzy pupper is in your lap. I swear puppy breath is like crack! ;-)


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> If only those were the only expenses related to having puppies...
> 
> What about the expenses to obtain a female who has good bloodlines, health, temperament, and working ability, raise her to breeding age, train and title her (hopefully) if you get her as a puppy (if you buy an older, titled, tested, health-checked dog, then of course you're paying more than puppy price), the cost of progesterone testing to arrange the breeding, the cost for the stud fee and travel, the costs of living in a location that allows you to have GSDs and to whelp a litter of puppies, much less the value of the time and energy and education that a good breeder focuses on breeding and whelping and raising quality puppies.


Each of my dogs cost upward of $30,000 in time, money, dog food, vet bills, trainers, cost of the dog, etc. to get to that point. That's to be able to add the letters SchH III, V, OFA Good, Kkl 1, "a" normal to their registered names.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You know, it's not the money, it's the breeder. 

Over here you pay between 600 Euros - 1500 Euros for a pup and you bet your butt that I wouldn't pay more than a 1000 Euros for a puppy. 

Indra cost 850 Euros and her breeder went more than five times to the Schutzhund World Championships and he is one of the most responsible breeders I met. 

However, to find out whats really going on I'd just go there, knock on the door and take a good look around me. Don't just walk away because you have a responsibility as well. You already deposited money. Go there, check the puppies and if you have the feeling that these puppies need to be rescued than get the word out!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm in agreement with checking them out, however, don't check them out with your "heart" (even tho thats very hard!) check them out with your "mind", be smart about it. 

Along with the above suggestions, I would also ask for a veternarian reference and call them !!!

Does this breeder have a website? Don't post here, but if you'd like to pm it to me or others do so, and we/they could give you an opinion.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Each of my dogs cost upward of $30,000 in time, money, dog food, vet bills, trainers, cost of the dog, etc. to get to that point. That's to be able to add the letters SchH III, V, OFA Good, Kkl 1, "a" normal to their registered names


. 

I spend 632 Euros, that is 804 Dollars in four months on Orijen Dog food. That is without the money I spend on the Meatballs. That is just the money I spend on Orijen! And I wonder where all our money goes.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Even though I have seen the website of Crooked Creek. When we move and I put my application in my boyfriend and I will go see the ranch and give her the deposit then before the pups are born. He can't wait either.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> .
> 
> I spend 632 Euros, that is 804 Dollars in four months on Orijen Dog food. That is without the money I spend on the Meatballs. That is just the money I spend on Orijen! And I wonder where all our money goes.


 I would feed tenderloin steak and the best bones and organs vs paying that much for a kibble...why don't you feed raw, Mrs K?


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

geissap said:


> How much are the Vom Engels German Shepherds. Any idea?


Nara was $1500. Once you purchase from them, if you come back for a 2nd dog, it drops down to $1000. Nara has had zero health problems and she'll be 3 in November. No hip dysplasia, etc. And if you live close enough, Dina will give you free training lessons and help with obedience.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

BlackPuppy said:


> I'm sure that $9,600 (8 puppies) is plenty of money for hip and elbow testing, temperament test, food for a mother dog and her puppies, and vet visits. Why GSDs sell for such inflated prices, I'll never understand.


Sorry, I forgot one very important factor - TIME - time is money and if the breeder does what he/she should from just the whelping date alone you are talking about 10 weeks (our puppies don't leave until then) of 24/7 care. That's a great deal of cleaning, grooming, nail trimming, training, socialization etc, etc. DYKWIMJB! 
PS that includes sleeping the whelping room for the first three weeks.


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## MIGSD (Aug 10, 2010)

THAT picture bothers me. However the being outside doesn't too much. We got Isis from a breeder that had an AWESOME set up out in her barn. The pups had a whole very big horse stall, continuous water, mom could come in and out, etc. But they spent lots of time with them and took them in the house and stuff. They had no AC in the house this summer but a great cross wind off a lake in the barn. Just wanted to say the outside/barn part isn't the end of the world. but that pic is just awful, way too many pups in way to small of a dirty area.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

EJQ said:


> Sorry, I forgot one very important factor - TIME - time is money and if the breeder does what he/she should from just the whelping date alone you are talking about 10 weeks (our puppies don't leave until then) of 24/7 care. That's a great deal of cleaning, grooming, nail trimming, training, socialization etc, etc. DYKWIMJB!
> PS that includes sleeping the whelping room for the first three weeks.


You also have to think about how much money the breeder spent on training the dog to prove that this female is breed worthy. And if the male is her, training him as well. If not her male, then she has the stud fee.... i swear... All I see are dollar signs, but I see them leaving the breeder light in the wallet. (good breeders anyways)

Plus think about the breeding where stud fees were paid, but no pups were produced, or the female had complications and needed an emergency c-section. It happens more often than we would like. But the reality is, good breeders don't run the most profitable business, and I would prefer it that way. I want my money to go back into the program to help improve their breeding program and make it even better. That can be by buying more fresh blood to difersify her lines, or training, or healthcare, or the money to take back a dog and care for it if the situation with the owner doesn't work out. 

Back on topic however. I was a bit confused by the letter/email myself. Did she type all of those errors in her email to you? I think It is one thing to make a mistake chatting with a friend, or perhaps here on a casual board. But to make numerous grammar and spelling errors when dealing with customers/clients is unacceptable. I know some people might be splitting hairs, but it doesn't seem professional to me. And some of the errors could have easily been fixed with a quick spell check, or read through. 

I'm curious to see how your visit goes with the breeder. Just remember to keep a clear head and be as objective as possible. And remember all puppies are cute (all GSDS anyways)


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

GSDSunshine said:


> You also have to think about how much money the breeder spent on training the dog to prove that this female is breed worthy. And if the male is her, training him as well. If not her male, then she has the stud fee.... i swear... All I see are dollar signs, but I see them leaving the breeder light in the wallet. (good breeders anyways)
> 
> Plus think about the breeding where stud fees were paid, but no pups were produced, or the female had complications and needed an emergency c-section. It happens more often than we would like. But the reality is, good breeders don't run the most profitable business, and I would prefer it that way. I want my money to go back into the program to help improve their breeding program and make it even better. That can be by buying more fresh blood to difersify her lines, or training, or healthcare, or the money to take back a dog and care for it if the situation with the owner doesn't work out.
> 
> ...


Well, you just filled in all of the gaps - well done!! Sounds like you've been there done that! Congrats!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

EJQ said:


> Sorry, I forgot one very important factor - TIME - time is money and if the breeder does what he/she should from just the whelping date alone you are talking about 10 weeks (our puppies don't leave until then) of 24/7 care. That's a great deal of cleaning, grooming, nail trimming, training, socialization etc, etc.


All good dog owners groom their dogs, show their dogs, train their dogs, clean up after their dogs, repair things their dogs have destroyed. I have already spent $3,752.96 to date this year on just owning my dogs, training, showing and vet fees. (It's a light year, it's usually much higher. Very few vet emergencies this year.) I am currently showing one dog in rally and one in conformation. 

I'm not breeding puppies to recoup my expenses. Neither should breeders. That is the point I'm trying to make. Why is a very good/show quality Belgian Shepherd from $700 to $1,000 and a GSD can't even be gotten at that price? Those poor Dutch Shepherd breeders in The Netherlands cannot sell their puppies for more than 500 Euros ($650 today), per breed club rules. How do they survive!

Oh, yeah, 2 DS breeders in Europe lost their entire litters, except for 1 puppy from one bitch, and had emergency C-sections. 

If what you are saying is true all dogs should cost as much as a GSD - they don't. There is a huge premium just for the privilego of owning a GSD.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> All good dog owners groom their dogs, show their dogs, train their dogs, clean up after their dogs, repair things their dogs have destroyed.
> If what you are saying is true all dogs should cost as much as a GSD - they don't. There is a huge premium just for the privilego of owning a GSD.


Good observation. 
Human nature I guess. The higher the price, the higher the perceived value.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> .
> 
> I spend 632 Euros, that is 804 Dollars in four months on Orijen Dog food. That is without the money I spend on the Meatballs. That is just the money I spend on Orijen! And I wonder where all our money goes.


I actually sat down and figured it out for a reply to a local newspaper. Their story was that dogs were being "abused" because they were crated up in our cars and trucks while waiting to work (among other things). After seeing the numbers, I almost wished I hadn't used the calculator. 

But the bond with my dogs that resulted, the fact that I could leave my 16 year old daughter at home while I went to the store and nobody was getting past them, having one of them walk up onto the couch and fall asleep with his or her head on my leg...priceless.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

As far as the money goes....

I am actually trying to talk my husband into spending 2500$ on one dog lol. I know he really doesnt want to but I really really want this dog. I am actually looking at 2 of them and are both over 1. 

The place I am looking at sells working line dogs and trains police dogs as a rule. The ones that arent cut out for it get sold as companions/personal protection dogs. The ones I have been looking at would be PERFECT for us. They are still young enough to be considered puppies but are old enough that they are already house broken and their personalities are shining through. From talking with this guy they are both really laid back which is EXACTLY what I was looking for (and hard to find in young GSD) They have an AWESOME guarantee and have all been tested out the wazzo for genetic problems. These dogs are socialized out the wazzo also so they know if they are kid friendly or not. All of this makes it TOTALLY worth it to me to spend that much on a new member of the family. Plus when I told them one of the dogs that I was looking at (which was about 2000$ more) and they told me that dog wouldnt be right for us because of our life style... I was impressed. I think that is the mark of a good professional breeder.

I really dont want a young puppy... though whoever said puppy breath is like crack is right. I just dont want to do the whole puppy thing... Is that horrible? 

As far as what that woman wrote to you... I think she was mad but still not a very professional email. I also got the feeling like she was _trying to sell you the dogs_ I dont like that feeling. I got the feeling like she _needed _to keep you on the hook for the dog. I dont know maybe I am wrong. Did anyone else get that feeling? I would go look but like the others said... think with your head not your heart. 

Good luck


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

BlackPuppy said:


> All good dog owners groom their dogs, show their dogs, train their dogs, clean up after their dogs, repair things their dogs have destroyed. I have already spent $3,752.96 to date this year on just owning my dogs, training, showing and vet fees. (It's a light year, it's usually much higher. Very few vet emergencies this year.) I am currently showing one dog in rally and one in conformation.
> 
> I'm not breeding puppies to recoup my expenses. Neither should breeders. That is the point I'm trying to make. Why is a very good/show quality Belgian Shepherd from $700 to $1,000 and a GSD can't even be gotten at that price? Those poor Dutch Shepherd breeders in The Netherlands cannot sell their puppies for more than 500 Euros ($650 today), per breed club rules. How do they survive!
> 
> ...


Indeed I do understand what you are saying. You might be correct, maybe there is a premium on the GSD. I have been involved with this breed for over 35 years. In that time they have been one of the top breeds in popularity in the US and in the world for that matter. I'm sure that also has influenced the cost of a puppy.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

narny, i *totally* got that feeling...


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