# Aggression or Excitement? Non-GSD



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Ok, not GSD but dog related.

I work in kennels and today, as I arrived at work, some of the dogs were being led to their compound on leashes, except one dog, that many fear because he has bitten a few kennel workers, myself included. Most just let him run into the compound.

This dog refused point blank to go in and began to lay down, when I approached, he growled, so I told the my colleague to go inside and I will deal with him. I tried to get him to follow me and he was doing a playful waggle with his body but when I got too close he bared his teeth and growled. I tried to give him room so that he didn't feel trapped and allow him to exit past me if he wanted.

He finally sat down outside the office door, so I stood next to him and tried to put a slip lead over his head but he turned around and stood up and wrapped his front legs around my waist, ears back , bared his front canines, growled and was salivating right in front of my face.

my supervisor arrived and tried to call him but he then lunged for her.

She phoned for one of the dog handlers to come and assist and when they arrived, the dog acted as though butter wouldn't melt. They say that he was probably excited and nothing more.

I will say this, if any of my own dogs displayed those signs to me, they would get my knee in their chest and if it continued, then it would be a one way trip to the vets.

Unfortunately, where I work, they train all the dogs using purely positive methods and do not believe in corrections. To do so, would mean you'd lose your job.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

That's a dog that needed some purely not-positive


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Could depend on the breed. Excitement aggression as it relates to some other breeds is more common and different than some people think and can be quite dangerous.

Regardless, if your dog presented to you like that, IMO, a knee to the chest would not be the route I would choose.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

personally i’d feel uncomfortable as an employee there, but more so i’d also feel uncomfortable as this dogs owner - leaving him at a facility where the staff are afraid? hesitant? or ill equipped? to manage him (i’m asking).

with the perimeters you’re working with, at the very least i’d have a dragline on this dog at all times.

out of curiosity.. is he new? a regular? boarding facility? is the owner aware of his shenanigans?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

That dog sounds like he’s used to getting his way through these tactics. He sounds like he could use a firm hand. I’m not a fan of giving in to aggressive displays at all. I agree with the drag line. I would leave his slip lead on.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Catch pole

It's hard to say what exactly was going on without seeing the dog.

Is this a daycare? Boarding facility? Training facility?

Do you have the opportunity/desire to train this dog so this behavior stops?


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Fodder said:


> personally i’d feel uncomfortable as an employee there, but more so i’d also feel uncomfortable as this dogs owner - leaving him at a facility where the staff are afraid? hesitant? or ill equipped? to manage him (i’m asking).
> 
> with the perimeters you’re working with, at the very least i’d have a dragline on this dog at all times.
> 
> out of curiosity.. is he new? a regular? boarding facility? is the owner aware of his shenanigans?


Please, do not think that I would use aggressive methods to deal with any of my dogs, I was merely trying to say that I would not tolerate that sort of behavior but if my life was in danger by any dog about to tear a chunk out of my face, then hopefully, I would be within my rights to defend myself from being mauled.

This dog has bitten every kennel worker here, this was not a one off incident. He has a Jekyll and Hyde persona, he can be loving and want a fuss and without warning he can turn on a hairpin, there is no warning or signs.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Fodder said:


> personally i’d feel uncomfortable as an employee there, but more so i’d also feel uncomfortable as this dogs owner - leaving him at a facility where the staff are afraid? hesitant? or ill equipped? to manage him (i’m asking).
> 
> with the perimeters you’re working with, at the very least i’d have a dragline on this dog at all times.
> 
> out of curiosity.. is he new? a regular? boarding facility? is the owner aware of his shenanigans?


He, has been with us for over 4 years and all dogs are permanent residents that live there 24 hours a day. The company that I work for own every single dog there.

This is not a boarding facility but a professional working dog kennel.

The management are aware but refuse to deal with the issue because the dog has clocked over 100,000 finds of illegal contraband to date.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Well that changes things.

Do the handlers rotate?

And that's 68 finds a day, every day, for 4 years.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Who handles this dog when he’s working


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Put the slip lead on when he is lead out of the kennel attached to a long line and when it is time for him to kennel, string him up if he shows aggression keeping your arm extended out so he can’t bite you. He is being reinforced for his displays of aggression.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Catch pole
> 
> It's hard to say what exactly was going on without seeing the dog.
> 
> ...


We have a catch pole but not allowed to use them, as it could cause stress to the dogs, I was warned that I would face disciplinary procedures if I was caught using them.

This is a professional dog detection kennels.

We are not permitted to train any of the dogs, our job is to clean the kennels, feed the dogs, administer medication and walk the dogs, we are not even allowed to fuss the dogs or play with them because that is left to the handlers as it could interfere with their work.

All dogs are kept in groups of 2 - 6 and when fights break out we have to deal with them, the handlers will not assist and when they come later the dogs act different and we are then given a lecture on how we should have handled the situation.

The last serious fight that I had to singly separate 3 dogs had left me with a 2 inch laceration on my hand and I do not have 100% feeling in the hand.

The handlers only have to deal with 2 or 3 dogs at a time, we have to deal with over 40 dogs, they act different with the handlers because they are allowed to bond with them and play games with them, we are not.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> Who handles this dog when he’s working


 His handler


----------



## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

Do you have an opportunity to talk with his regular handler to explain what's happening in the kennels and maybe gain some tips of what works best as calming tools for this particular dog?


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

boy do details matter.
and here i was picturing an ornery doodle at doggie daycare.

edit: yes, what catrinka said. i also work at a facility where there are trainer/handlers and dedicated kennel techs... although we don’t typically deal with issues such as yours, any concerns, special handling advice or protocols are always taken up individually with the staff assigned to the dog.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Is this a facility where the dog isn’t allowed to live with his handler? Honestly it’s sounds like you guys are getting punked as David would say. What is this dog trained for?


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Put the slip lead on when he is lead out of the kennel attached to a long line and when it is time for him to kennel, string him up if he shows aggression keeping your arm extended out so he can’t bite you. He is being reinforced for his displays of aggression.


The place has CCTV all over the place and we would lose our jobs if we did that. Due to his aggression, those on the early shift will just open his kennel to let him run to the field. All dogs are left to run to the field but have to be put on a lead to be led in to their compound. However, those who are fearful of him will not place a slip lead on him and just let him run to his compound. I always put a lead on him because I know he will act up but any sudden movement and he will bite.

When he retires, he will never be re homed.


----------



## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

Fodder said:


> boy do details matter.
> and here i was picturing an ornery doodle at doggie daycare.


Boy howdy...isn't that the truth! 😆


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Catrinka said:


> Do you have an opportunity to talk with his regular handler to explain what's happening in the kennels and maybe gain some tips of what works best as calming tools for this particular dog?


We have spoken with his regular handler but he says that he is ok with him and doesn't understand the fuss. The handlers can use balls or squeaky toys or food rewards but we are not allowed to.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Fodder said:


> boy do details matter.
> and here i was picturing an ornery doodle at doggie daycare.
> 
> edit: yes, what catrinka said. i also work at a facility where there are trainer/handlers and dedicated kennel techs... although we don’t typically deal with issues such as yours, any concerns, special handling advice or protocols are always taken up individually with the staff assigned to the dog.


Sorry, the purpose of the thread was really to see if you though the dog was being aggressive or as management believe, merely a dog being over excited.

however, as people have asked for more details, then I gave them.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> Is this a facility where the dog isn’t allowed to live with his handler? Honestly it’s sounds like you guys are getting punked as David would say. What is this dog trained for?


All dogs live at the kennels, unless out on an overnight search. This dog's discipline is tobacco and money.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This company is at huge risk for several lawsuits. Knowingly allowing employees to work in a dangerous environment, after several instances of injury, is more than enough to cost them dearly.

This is just all wrong.

Keeping a single purpose dog that bites people is just lazy. $2000 for a green dog plus a few weeks training and you're done. One single trip to the emergency room, unless employees keep lying for the company, costs far more than replacing the dog.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Gwyllgi said:


> All dogs live at the kennels, unless out on an overnight search. This dog's discipline is tobacco and money.


As I said before, the dog knows he can push you guys around to get what he wants, and is doing so. I don’t see any reason to let this dog behave like this


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Back to the original question, the dog is having fun. It's excitement and aggression. It's easy to fix, but you have to correct the dog.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Gwyllgi said:


> Please, do not think that I would use aggressive methods to deal with any of my dogs, I was merely trying to say that I would not tolerate that sort of behavior but if my life was in danger by any dog about to tear a chunk out of my face, then hopefully, I would be within my rights to defend myself from being mauled.
> 
> This dog has bitten every kennel worker here, this was not a one off incident. He has a Jekyll and Hyde persona, he can be loving and want a fuss and without warning he can turn on a hairpin, there is no warning or signs.


Just a question. I understand that workers are afraid of being bitten (again) but how is the dog permitted to "run into the compound" unleashed or unmuzzled? And after the first bite, why are the owners allowed to bring the dog there without stipulations?

EDIT: ah now I see having read the rest of the thread. Getting zero support from the handler or kennel owners? I'd quit this significant-injury-waiting-to-happen in a heartbeat and wait for the lawyers for the person who is about to be seriously injured to call you to corroborate the working conditions in the lawsuit.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Just a question. I understand that workers are afraid of being bitten (again) but how is the dog permitted to "run into the compound" unleashed or unmuzzled? And after the first bite, why are the owners allowed to bring the dog there without stipulations?


This is a working dog kennels. It doesn't excuse the behavior but it puts things into perspective.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

WNGD said:


> Just a question. I understand that workers are afraid of being bitten (again) but how is the dog permitted to "run into the compound" unleashed or unmuzzled? And after the first bite, why are the owners allowed to bring the dog there without stipulations?


gotta read the thread. 
dog lives there.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

See my edit above.
Also just saw the first line, this is a non GSD. What breed is it?


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A side note for those following along.

The kennels I have been around, mostly military and also 2 large civilian kennels (one with 500 dogs), operated much differently. The kennel hands never took dogs out of kennels unless they were very experienced. There were no exercise areas. Handlers and trainers exercised dogs. If there was a problem like this, a trainer would get involved. 

Fama was kennel aggressive. The kennel hands used to retrieve her food bowl with a broom. However, if she came out of the kennel after him, he was more than authorized to correct her and defend himself.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Well that changes things.
> 
> Do the handlers rotate?
> 
> And that's 68 finds a day, every day, for 4 years.


Not often.

Not sure of the true quota of finds in figures but I have been told its very high and he is one of the best in the UK. When, I was told of that figure by the supervisor, I didn't try and work it out.

I do know that a few months ago, he found around £2000 worth of illegal cigarettes hidden in a false wall in a warehouse, so he is good at what he does.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Gwyllgi said:


> Not often.
> 
> Not sure of the true quota of finds in figures but I have been told its very high and he is one of the best in the UK. When, I was told of that figure by the supervisor, I didn't try and work it out.
> 
> I do know that a few months ago, he found around £2000 worth of illegal cigarettes hidden in a false wall in a warehouse, so he is good at what he does.


I have no doubt. He can be good at what he does without injuring people. This is a single purpose dog. No need to worry about shutting down his drive to fight. Black and white. You do not bite people.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> This company is at huge risk for several lawsuits. Knowingly allowing employees to work in a dangerous environment, after several instances of injury, is more than enough to cost them dearly.
> 
> This is just all wrong.
> 
> Keeping a single purpose dog that bites people is just lazy. $2000 for a green dog plus a few weeks training and you're done. One single trip to the emergency room, unless employees keep lying for the company, costs far more than replacing the dog.


 I agree, it is wrong.

We have complained numerous times about this dogs behaviour and we are told it must be our fault. The company have a huge legal team on the pay roll.

There was a dog there a few years ago that had Cocker rage (don't know if you are familiar with the term over there), it bit us all, nothing got done, when it failed its trial it was rehomed. It bit new owners, they brought it back. The head trainer decided to do some training with it, it bit him and only then was it taken to be put to sleep.

Management refused to act on the words of 8 kennel members.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Gwyllgi said:


> I agree, it is wrong.
> 
> We have complained numerous times about this dogs behaviour and we are told it must be our fault. The company have a huge legal team on the pay roll.
> 
> ...


Seriously, this doesn’t sound good. Always try to make sure there is someone else around when handling this dog. Be prepared for a worst case scenario.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

WNGD said:


> See my edit above.
> Also just saw the first line, this is a non GSD. What breed is it?


Border Collie crossed with something big.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Back to the original question, the dog is having fun. It's excitement and aggression. It's easy to fix, but you have to correct the dog.


unfortunately, we are not permitted to correct the dogs. One worker received a written warning because she tried to get a dog that was pulling, to heel.

On my first week, a dog latched on to my arm hard and was pulling me down to the ground. I pushed the dog away but he came and latched on harder, luckily I was wearing two jumpers and a thick coat or he would have punctured my arm.

I got the dog to calm down and leashed him and led him to his kennel. An hour later the company welfare officer came to see me and said that two visiting managers from their overseas office witnessed me pushing the dogs away.

I was told they are force free only here and do not believe in correcting bad behaviour. I asked if the managers were trainers and she said they are, so I asked, why did they not come and assist when they saw the dog attacking me? her response was because its not their job. I asked, what should I do in a similar situation? I was told to have a bag of treats and when the dog stops attacking, I give a treat but withhold if he attacks again. That was the first time that I had heard of positive only training.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Are they using Mals from Holland in a force free kennels?


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Are they using Mals from Holland in a force free kennels?


That would be something to see

No, believe it or not this was a dog that obviously had not been told no as a puppy. Therefore he thought it was ok to bite but they were no longer puppy bites. If it was a Mal, I think I would be typing this with one hand.

They actually used to have Mals and Shepherds there and trained for the security sector but no longer do.


----------



## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

I know you mentioned that you're not allowed to use treats, balls, or toys with the dogs, but what about one of those stuffed canvas training dummies on a rope? If he's still amped up, something that he'd grip onto and allow you to lead him to his kennel?


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Gwyllgi, are you a member of a union?


----------



## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Dunkirk said:


> Gwyllgi, are you a member of a union?


Great thought.

I’m guessing not, but there’s gotta be protections here for the employees. 

This whole situation is so disturbing on literally ten different levels.

Gwylligi. You do what’s good for you, but man, this is almost untenable.

Best of luck to you!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Gwyllgi said:


> That would be something to see
> 
> No, believe it or not this was a dog that obviously had not been told no as a puppy. Therefore he thought it was ok to bite but they were no longer puppy bites. If it was a Mal, I think I would be typing this with one hand.
> 
> They actually used to have Mals and Shepherds there and trained for the security sector but no longer do.


Oh thank goodness.

Do you see a way forward? Something we can help with?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m appalled that anyone has to work under those conditions and unsafe restrictions.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The owner is an idiot in that you don’t not manage a potentially dangerous dog, but he/ she doesn’t have to directly deal with the dog. I would ask for a substantial raise or seek other employment. That attitude is pure negligence.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I've been bitten many times working at a kennels, but they were dual purpose green dogs and I was compensated appropriately. It was part of the job and expected going in. 

All medical was covered 100%


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

The USA and Great Britain have different legal systems. What is fair and reasonable in one nation may not apply to the other one.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Oh thank goodness.
> 
> Do you see a way forward? Something we can help with?


Thanks but I don't see a way forward with them, the answers received support my view and those of my colleagues that this dog is showing aggression and not a dog that is excitable. I just wish that management would step up and intervene and do some one on one training with this dog and admit that he is a ticking time bomb before he crosses the line.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> I’m appalled that anyone has to work under those conditions and unsafe restrictions.


Money seems to matter more than the health and safety of their employees, unfortunately.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> The owner is an idiot in that you don’t not manage a potentially dangerous dog, but he/ she doesn’t have to directly deal with the dog. I would ask for a substantial raise or seek other employment. That attitude is pure negligence.


We have been asking for a pay rise for 4 years but they tell us we are earning a decent amount (we are not), the handlers earn £10,000 -£40,000 more than us per year but do not have to deal with what we have to. I'm checking the job section each day but rarely receive a reply.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Catrinka said:


> I know you mentioned that you're not allowed to use treats, balls, or toys with the dogs, but what about one of those stuffed canvas training dummies on a rope? If he's still amped up, something that he'd grip onto and allow you to lead him to his kennel?


No, we are not to use any item that the dog would see as a game because that is how the handlers train them and they don't want kennel staff to bond with the dogs in case it affects their work.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Dunkirk said:


> Gwyllgi, are you a member of a union?


Yes but the company do not have an in house union. In my original contract we were made to sign a disclaimer that we would not join a union but I still joined one because here it is illegal to prevent someone joining a union.

I have since left that union because 6 members of staff were forced out of their positions and went to the union but the union, although initially got involved, the company legal team stepped in and the union refused to help, later denying that they had heard of the company.

I am in a new union but have to be a member for at least 2 months before they can help.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Damicodric said:


> Great thought.
> 
> I’m guessing not, but there’s gotta be protections here for the employees.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


----------

