# Is $4500 high for a well bred WGSL puppy?



## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?

BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Way too much.
I'd want it to be pooping diamonds for that price

Are you planning to enter shows with the pup or do you just want a family pet? 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

I am just looking for a good family dog.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Post your location and someone will be able to recommend a good breeder or know of a good rescue center. 

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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

For a competition or show dog I wouldn't even pay over 3,000. Never mind a family pet. We had an awesome family dog for 1200. 4-5000 is too much!


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

We are in Colorado. Prefer a WGSL male puppy. Thank you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's NOT outrageous in the U.S.A. for a WGSL puppy. They start at about 3500 up to 5000. Some are more. 

A dog suitable for a pet home comes from the same littter as a dog suitable for work or sport or show. The puppies are not worth less because they are going to a pet home. The same work and care went into them. IMO, the temperament on a dog going into a pet home has to be as good, if not better, than a dog in sport. They get things thrown at them like overload on socializing with people, dog parks, kids wrestling and screaming, etc.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


OP, I'd pay that to get a really good dog. If I were you, PM who the breeder is to Jax08 and see if the breeder has a good reputation. 

If it's a mediocre breeder charging that much definitely bail. Jax can probably tell you whether it is or not.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know much about show-line breeders other than locally here and the going prices. Not sure how much I could help you with that. I look at things like are they showing and training their dogs? Or are they just buying titled dogs from overseas and breeding them? Is all the health testing done. Do they have dogs from their own breeding's that they are training and titling? You're welcome to send me the link for my opinion on that but you really should get an opinion from someone familiar with show lines for temperament and health in those lines.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Feel free to PM me who the breeder is. I can tell if it’s worth it or not. I know a few


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Or, maybe, hear me out, post the breeder’s name here so anyone that might know can give you an opinion rather than singling out one person that _may_ have an opinion?


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

The breeder is Mittelwest out of Illinois. Seems very reputable based on reviews and info i have read here. I didn’t want to mention their name because i felt they were reputable and didn’t want to derail the thread. My only question was...is this really where the market is for a top line WGSL pup?


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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Okay I just read two really bad reviews about these guys on yelp. And there was a parvovirus outbreak. This is harder than it looks.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are a couple OUTRAGEOUS broker/breeders in CO who import whole litters....basically they pay 700-900 EU a pup (800 EU is about $895) - then they charge $3500-5000 for them....now - yes it costs to do business....but seriously?????? Take your time and get some info here, research and buy a pup domestically or even import directly if you just have to have an import............do NOT pay $4000+ for a puppy!!!!


Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are willing to have one flown in, have you looked at Alta Tollhaus in Michigan? Very reputable. They even had one of there showlines at the USCA nationals last year.









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## robmypro (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks again for all your help, everyone. I really appreciate it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

My price limit for a well bred GSD is $2,000 there are some decent breeders a little higher between $2-2.5k but I will not go over $2k for a puppy personally. Especially considering in some breeds I can find fully trained adult dogs with health testing for around $3-4K I get breeds vary but when the health testing costs roughly the same I know that isn’t the factor for price changes of puppies. There may be something to said for varying vet costs but I don’t know that that difference ads up to potentially $6K+ when you factor in puppy prices

This could be somebody to look into.






Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs | Producing outstanding German Shepherds Since 1995







austerlitzshepherds.com


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

robmypro said:


> The breeder is Mittelwest out of Illinois. Seems very reputable based on reviews and info i have read here. I didn’t want to mention their name because i felt they were reputable and didn’t want to derail the thread. My only question was...is this really where the market is for a top line WGSL pup?


I would not ever recommend or get a pup from them.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It is in range of most of the commercial showline breeders I see. Mittlelwest is probably the most well known showline breeder in the US. That's probably why you can find lots of reviews on them. I wouldn't buy from them, but its also a type of dog I'm not interested in. At 4500, you can get a trained adult working line shepherd.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Like a lot of things, there is a point of no return when buying pedigree dogs. For me the most important factors are temperament and structure. If you are breeding, and you want to offer some level of stellar attributes in either WL or SL, then those things may drive your decision to spend more up front-but there are no absolute guarantees you'll get that in the end. IMHO you can get a stellar family dog for less than half that much. Temperament for the obvious reasons that you don't want a nervous dog. Structure because you want a healthy dog (HD/DM). Two dogs can look identical, even in the same litter, but one can have more of a given drive or better structure than the other. Even among higher end dogs, not all show lines will be "best of breed" caliber, and not all working lines will be police dog or SAR sure fits. Dogs can wash out of programs they were intended to fulfill, no matter the cost. I would check the pedigrees of the DAM/SIRE and verify their histories. And of course check out the litter in person if you can. $1500.00 will buy a pretty gorgeous, very stable, healthy family companion. The higher prices often factor in more kennel overhead than pure dog abilities. Not saying any line of GSD isn't worth more, just that you have to determine if a long list of GR CH show dogs matters to you if you aren't going to breed.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I know of a breeder in Colorado - West German Show Lines, that I would recommend. Her current litter is already spoken for, but if you are not in a big rush and can wait, she's who I would recommend in Colorado. There are a ton of BYB's and newer breeders in Colorado (I am in Nebraska but lived in Colorado a few years, years ago) Most there, I wouldn't recommend. There is one that charges those kinds of prices, but steer clear of them, just a huge puppy mill. Mittlewest used to be a top of the line breeder in show lines, but they've become a large scale commercial breeder and you've already read the reviews... You should be able to get a nice quality family pet from a show line breeder, out of titled and health tested parents for $2000-2500. 
If you would like the info on the breeder I mentioned, PM me and I can give it to you. I have a good friend getting a puppy from her current litter.


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## IDR (Sep 21, 2011)

robmypro said:


> The breeder is Mittelwest out of Illinois. Seems very reputable based on reviews and info i have read here. I didn’t want to mention their name because i felt they were reputable and didn’t want to derail the thread. My only question was...is this really where the market is for a top line WGSL pup?


I'm in the Chicago area so I know a lot of people with dogs from that kennel. While they have produced some nice dogs, you couldn't pay me to get a dog from there. Every dog I know from that kennel has had health problems and if you ask the owners, they would not purchase a dog from that breeder again.


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## Cjhodgson66 (Nov 15, 2014)

robmypro said:


> Okay I just read two really bad reviews about these guys on yelp. And there was a parvovirus outbreak. This is harder than it looks.


Run from Mittlewest


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## MollyLarue (Jan 9, 2011)

Wow! I've had several friends spend $4k on a pup from highly reputable breeders. Each one regrets the "purchase". Different issues for each, but health and temperament cannot be guaranteed- just like kids. Same parents can turn out vastly different children. Don't get me wrong, they love their dogs, but none felt the dogs were worth the ridiculous amount of money.

Money in no way guarantees a great dog. Spend the money if you need titles, or a trained guard dog. For a pet, I would not go to a professional breeder. Find a rescue, or a family who has/or plans on only 1 litter. Breeders are a step above "mills". Puppies represent money, not love. Please don't send "hate" posts. Breeding for any type of professional dog is different. Professional breeders for "pets" is silly. Sorry. I've had GSDs all my life. My parents trained GSDs for the police. No one ever spent thousands for the puppies... hundreds.. yes.


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## #1KaisersMom (Jun 18, 2020)

Way to much!! 😀


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## nvycrmn (Sep 1, 2019)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


Is there a reason that you are looking for such a specific line such as WGSL? I got a 3 year old working line GSD from German Shepherd Rescue of Iowa for $300 and he is an AWESOME family dog. Protective of the house and the 6 people that live there. Still working on his socialization but does well on walks and in stores. Might want to look at spending a little money to rescue a good GSD from shelter than to spend a lot of money lining someone else’s pockets (no offense to any breeders out there) if you’re just looking for a family pet. Just my .02.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

MollyLarue said:


> Wow! I've had several friends spend $4k on a pup from highly reputable breeders. Each one regrets the "purchase". Different issues for each, but health and temperament cannot be guaranteed- just like kids. Same parents can turn out vastly different children. Don't get me wrong, they love their dogs, but none felt the dogs were worth the ridiculous amount of money.
> 
> Money in no way guarantees a great dog. Spend the money if you need titles, or a trained guard dog. For a pet, I would not go to a professional breeder. Find a rescue, or a family who has/or plans on only 1 litter. Breeders are a step above "mills". Puppies represent money, not love. Please don't send "hate" posts. Breeding for any type of professional dog is different. Professional breeders for "pets" is silly. Sorry. I've had GSDs all my life. My parents trained GSDs for the police. No one ever spent thousands for the puppies... hundreds.. yes.


I know you have good intentions but basically you're saying either rescue or support a backyard breeder. Terrible advice!


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I also liked their website but luckily found this website and got a lot help. To me they are the big business of breeders, look for the smaller breeders who do a handful of litters a year for the love of the breed, many will raise the pups in their home not locked in a kennel barn. Once you lock on two or three breeders run the pedigree of up coming litters here. The very knowledge people here helped me avoid a breeding that had a high likelihood of producing a pup with allergy issues. You can find great pups for 2 to 3k. Talk to the breeders, a good breeder will spend more trying to find out if they want to let you have a puppy than trying to sell you on why you should buy one of their puppies.

What kind of GSD are looking for? What do you want to do with the GSD?


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## JamesBrooks (Jun 11, 2020)

My experience is it's high especially if you are just looking for a good family dog.


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## 491527 (Jan 11, 2020)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


Wow. I paid $500, yes five hundred for our GSD 3 years ago. He is registered and beautiful.Very large, weighs 98 pounds, all muscle. He is very protective of his familyincluding his 7pound cat sister. You are paying way too much for a family dog.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Sebastians Dad said:


> Wow. I paid $500, yes five hundred for our GSD 3 years ago. He is registered and beautiful.Very large, weighs 98 pounds, all muscle. He is very protective of his familyincluding his 7pound cat sister. You are paying way too much for a family dog.


Orrrrr, maybe people believe in supporting good breeders that believe in improving and maintaining the breed, actually health test to stack the deck of getting a healthy dog in our favor, know their lines inside and out to be sure the dogs they breed don’t have any temperament flaws and are worthy of being bred, are there for the lifetime of our dog to answer any questions or concerns we have, and are willing to take the dog back in case we can’t keep him/her anymore? Not everyone wants to support backyard breeders that couldn’t care less.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Sebastians Dad said:


> Wow. I paid $500, yes five hundred for our GSD 3 years ago. He is registered and beautiful.Very large, weighs 98 pounds, all muscle. He is very protective of his familyincluding his 7pound cat sister. You are paying way too much for a family dog.


And you are supporting a backyard breeder. Shameful!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

One of my best friends and fellow breeder has had two replacements from Mittlewest that both have come up displastic. So that is three bitches from three different breedings (because no one in their right mind would take a replacement puppy from a breeding that already produced a dysplastic dog). Last replacement was spayed today, redid hip xrays, they are so much worse after just a year. 

She has a very nice WGSL bitch from totally different kennel that is producing nice, doing well in her training, stable temperament. We subject our dogs to so much on a daily basis, I wouldn't take a risk with a less then stellar breeder. Go with a breeder that has planned breedings for a reason. What are they hoping to produce with the pair. Picks sire and dam based on individual qualities, not because its a matter of convenience. 

There is another breeder down the road from my friend, horrible dogs. Nothing but health problems. But since he doesn't care about having a reputable kennel name, he doesn't have one. Papers are handed to owners to fill out, therefore little can be published about the dogs that are being produced since there is no name to associate them with. 

Puppies are worth, what someone is willing to pay. If a breeder can get $5,000 for a puppy, then that is what they will sell it for. You could find the same quality, at a lower price. Look at gas prices. Same gas, but you will see higher prices in higher end neighborhoods. I see it all the time.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

$4500 is not not outrageous, as you asked.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Just my personal opinion but I’d never spend that kind of money on a pet dog (again 😂). Knowing what I know now, I’d rather spend the money on ANY dog and use whatever is leftover for training. Money is much better spent on the training than the actual dog if you’re looking for a family pet. I’ve had $5,000 dogs and a dog dropped on my doorstep for free that I don’t even know the breed of and the difference in temperament and stability is barely noticeable (health wise, mystery breed dog far surpassed the well bred ones). If you insist on a purebred, I’d just import... $4,500-$5,000 doesn’t guarantee you anything, so you might as well spend less... especially if it’s a family pet and you have to keep them no matter what 😉


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am shocked by some of these crazy replies. 
Just a pet? There is no job more important and more deserving of thought and planning. This is the animal that will share your home, sleep with your children and be your companion for the next decade plus.
Breeders one step above puppy mills? Clearly you've never seen a puppy mill. That's just an insult.
And this whole health issue thing? I have spent more on Shadow in a month then I spent on Bud in his lifetime. My little debt builder here has had allergy issues, skin problems, heart issues, joint problems, eye issues, injuries as a direct result of poor health. She needs to be on specific food, I have to regulate exercise and to top it all off she has a crappy temperament and is prone to biting.

$4500 to much? If it's a reputable breeder bring it on. It's way less then vet bills.


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## AbbyandMaya (Jun 22, 2020)

robmypro said:


> I am just looking for a good family dog.


I think the price is much too high if you want a family dog.
Also, German Shepherds are great with families but be prepared as WL’s tend to have a lot more energy and require a lot of training!


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

iBite said:


> Just my personal opinion but I’d never spend that kind of money on a pet dog (again 😂). Knowing what I know now, I’d rather spend the money on ANY dog and use whatever is leftover for training. Money is much better spent on the training than the actual dog if you’re looking for a family pet. I’ve had $5,000 dogs and a dog dropped on my doorstep for free that I don’t even know the breed of and the difference in temperament and stability is barely noticeable (health wise, mystery breed dog far surpassed the well bred ones). If you insist on a purebred, I’d just import... $4,500-$5,000 doesn’t guarantee you anything, so you might as well spend less... especially if it’s a family pet and you have to keep them no matter what 😉


I've seen several of these "Any" dogs come into training. Poor conformation and terrible temperament. Some afraid to walk through the door. Would I spend that amount on a dog? Probably not. But I would certainly spend the money to get a dog from a reputable breeder that health tests and titles their dogs before I'd get "Any" dog! A well bred dog from a reputable breeder makes the BEST pet!


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

gsdsteve said:


> I've seen several of these "Any" dogs come into training. Poor conformation and terrible temperament. Some afraid to walk through the door. Would I spend that amount on a dog? Probably not. But I would certainly spend the money to get a dog from a reputable breeder that health tests and titles their dogs before I'd get "Any" dog! A well bred dog from a reputable breeder makes the BEST pet!


Hm... yeah... that’s why my suggestion was to import... “any” imported dog will be 10x cheaper than that and come from titled parents.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why should they import? There are plenty of good breeders right here in the states with lower prices. No guarantees on an import. They may be cheaper but they certainly aren't going to send their best dogs over here for pets. 

I agree with Steve. Just any dog doesn't make a good pet. I see a lot of really hard to train dogs with zero drive and bad nerves. It's sad to see someone put out 10000% in training and get 2% back with a dog they have to manage for the life time of the dog. As far as I'm concerned, a family pet has to have even better nerves and temperament than a sport dog. Sport people micromanage their dogs and demand higher obedience so can cover some of that up.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Why should they import? There are plenty of good breeders right here in the states with lower prices. No guarantees on an import. They may be cheaper but they certainly aren't going to send their best dogs over here for pets.
> 
> I agree with Steve. Just any dog doesn't make a good pet. I see a lot of really hard to train dogs with zero drive and bad nerves. It's sad to see someone put out 10000% in training and get 2% back with a dog they have to manage for the life time of the dog. As far as I'm concerned, a family pet has to have even better nerves and temperament than a sport dog. Sport people micromanage their dogs and demand higher obedience so can cover some of that up.


Like I said, just my personal opinion... but if someone is making the equivalent of a brand new Mercedes on a litter of puppies, each and every one of them better be guaranteed not to have so much as an ear infection their entire life and live for 15 years 😂
I know there are no guarantees on an import but I would rather get one for 10x less and take my chances than pay $5,000 for an 8 week old puppy with even less chances. Dog breeding in North America is pretty much an unregulated free-for-all so unless someone is willing to devote a few months of their life researching where their dog is coming from whereas with an import, anybody can just pick a name from a list and get the same thing.


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## Bebe (Apr 17, 2011)

robmypro said:


> I am just looking for a good family dog.


If you are just wanting a family GSD, why are you looking for a show line pyppy?


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


Robmypro, if you're still looking I found this that may be helpful: German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Ethical German Shepherd Puppy Breeder Characteristics 
Ethical breeders are just that. Regardless of price, ethical breeders want to breed healthy, sound pups. Has nothing to do with the number of dogs they own or if they breed in a barn or in their kitchen floor. Some lines have line-breeding (recent or historically) which can both help or hinder the resulting pups, in one way or another. Breeders refer to this as "consolidation". Out-crosses are when one line of dogs are bred to other lines called an open pedigree, which infuses fresh genes into the pool. They have pluses and minuses too. BUT, the point is there is at least one well known breeder with a super fancy website, who sells his dogs as premium dogs at extreme prices. He has been referenced all over the internet for scamming remote buyers. He charges $7000.00 or higher often times, and the owners go to the airport to receive a sick, scared, poorly bred dog. 
If you can see the sire and dam, along with the pups in person, that's a huge plus. Also, if you know the Sire and Dam's registered names or registration numbers, you can go to Pedigree Database and see pictures of their ancestors, progeny, siblings etc. (sometimes). That also shows you back-massing or linebreeding to some extent if it exists. It's kinda nuts buyers have to go to so much work to find a healthy dog, but again, higher price does not always equal healthy, sound dogs. Hope this helps.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

iBite said:


> Like I said, just my personal opinion... but if someone is making the equivalent of a brand new Mercedes on a litter of puppies, each and every one of them better be guaranteed not to have so much as an ear infection their entire life and live for 15 years 😂
> I know there are no guarantees on an import but I would rather get one for 10x less and take my chances than pay $5,000 for an 8 week old puppy with even less chances. Dog breeding in North America is pretty much an unregulated free-for-all so unless someone is willing to devote a few months of their life researching where their dog is coming from whereas with an import, anybody can just pick a name from a list and get the same thing.



So let me get this right....

It's all an unregulated free for all over here in North America unless someone takes the time to do research on a breeder but you don't need to do research on a breeder if you import? Can I ask how many dogs you've imported? In my opinion, based on experiences from my friends, importing is a crap shoot. They do not send their best dogs to you. And there are crap breeders overseas as well. Midnight trials to title a dog, puppies that are nervebags, puppies that have dysplasia, sick puppies. I would never import unless I had someone that knew the breeder helping me. I'm just not sure what you are basing your opinion on or why a person would not do several months of research before investing in a creature they will have for 13 years.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> So let me get this right....
> 
> It's all an unregulated free for all over here in North America unless someone takes the time to do research on a breeder but you don't need to do research on a breeder if you import? Can I ask how many dogs you've imported? In my opinion, based on experiences from my friends, importing is a crap shoot. They do not send their best dogs to you. And there are crap breeders overseas as well. Midnight trials to title a dog, puppies that are nervebags, puppies that have dysplasia, sick puppies. I would never import unless I had someone that knew the breeder helping me. I'm just not sure what you are basing your opinion on or why a person would not do several months of research before investing in a creature they will have for 13 years.


Because it’s just easier for the average person to have that work done for them by a professional regulatory body instead of becoming an expert in something that everyone argues about anyway, that will become instantly obsolete to them the minute they buy their puppy. I spent many years living and working in Europe and buying dogs there is just different... more predictable. I don’t know why that same system can’t be brought over here. There are some sophisticated calculations that go into breeding over there and even then you can’t know exactly what you’re getting (we haven’t come that far in DNA mapping even in humans yet) and here we have ancestry.com breeding at 10x the cost. If I’m spending 5-10 times more on a dog, I’d expect them to be 5-10x better. It seems reasonable to spend much less on a dog that couldn’t have even been bred if they were THAT terrible. If they were $1-$2k, I’d say fine, but $4500-$5000USD seems outrageous. For that you can get a trained PPD here and Canadian vets cost twice as much so I have no idea how a dog could possibly cost that much.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

iBite said:


> Because it’s just easier for the average person to have that work done for them by a professional regulatory body instead of becoming an expert in something that everyone argues about anyway, that will become instantly obsolete to them the minute they buy their puppy. I spent many years living and working in Europe and buying dogs there is just different... more predictable. I don’t know why that same system can’t be brought over here. There are some sophisticated calculations that go into breeding over there and even then you can’t know exactly what you’re getting (we haven’t come that far in DNA mapping even in humans yet) and here we have ancestry.com breeding at 10x the cost. If I’m spending 5-10 times more on a dog, I’d expect them to be 5-10x better. It seems reasonable to spend much less on a dog that couldn’t have even been bred if they were THAT terrible. If they were $1-$2k, I’d say fine, but $4500-$5000USD seems outrageous. For that you can get a trained PPD here and Canadian vets cost twice as much so I have no idea how a dog could possibly cost that much.


$4-5k is outrageous in the US, I've only seen one person say it was a reasonable price to pay. I'd never pay over $2,000 for a well bred GSD in the US although there are some good breeders at $2.5k but anything over that is seriously just a huge waste of money. Mostly people marketing a name rather than the puppies being worth that much. But I mean people are buying doodles for $5,000 so there's that.

As far as importing a ton of people in the US get royally screwed over by importing dogs. Unless you have trustworthy contacts overseas or 100% know the breed is amazing and worth buying from you might as well buy an $800 backyard bred pup. Then at least you actually get the puppy you were trying to buy. A ton of breeders in Europe also sell their crap/culls that can't make the cut in Europe to people in the US who think they're getting a good deal a good dog. That's why I'd be very very careful buying a WGSL in general. They tend to at least be good pets, but trainability and health is iffy. Shelby is my GSD from a wgsl cull stud, she's a lovely pet, but she just isn't very trainable as far as how you would expect a GSD to be. Very short attention span and little to no drive as far as toy and food. The short attention span makes training just for praise difficult but it's doable just not enjoyable to work with her.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry but I have to disagree with European breeders only exporting crap dogs. I have friends that have imported pups/dogs and were very happy with them and they are good dogs that are doing well in competitive sports and real work.

I have had a broker find and import a pup for me. The pup did not disappoint and is well liked by others. Her drive and intensity surpasses that of my KNPV line Mals.

I also have directly imported pups from a European breeder and am very happy with them. I did not get crap or leftovers. I had offers to buy the pups before the plane landed from people that compete and work their dogs.

Personally I prefer dogs with pedigrees up close to the real deal dogs that I liked vs a pup by American breeders a few generations down from the same lines but bred to that breeder's idea of a good dog. It gives me more of an active hand in choosing what I think is a good dog vs that of a breeder with similar interests.

I am not dismissing American breeders but just as one can say European breeders have a reputation for exporting crap dogs, European breeders say that American breeders have a reputation for breeding dumbed down dogs due to the US being such a litigious nation.

I am not saying that there isn't a history of European breeders dumping less than stellar dogs or that you can't buy a good dog here, but I am saying that if you do your research, you can get some really nice dogs from Europe.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry but I have to disagree with European breeders only exporting crap dogs.


Nobody said Europeans export only crap dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> $4-5k is outrageous in the US, I've only seen one person say it was a reasonable price to pay. I'd never pay over $2,000 for a well bred GSD in the US although there are some good breeders at $2.5k but anything over that is seriously just a huge waste of money. Mostly people marketing a name rather than the puppies being worth that much. But I mean people are buying doodles for $5,000 so there's that.
> 
> As far as importing a ton of people in the US get royally screwed over by importing dogs. Unless you have trustworthy contacts overseas or 100% know the breed is amazing and worth buying from you might as well buy an $800 backyard bred pup. Then at least you actually get the puppy you were trying to buy. A ton of breeders in Europe also sell their crap/culls that can't make the cut in Europe to people in the US who think they're getting a good deal a good dog. That's why I'd be very very careful buying a WGSL in general. They tend to at least be good pets, but trainability and health is iffy. Shelby is my GSD from a wgsl cull stud, she's a lovely pet, but she just isn't very trainable as far as how you would expect a GSD to be. Very short attention span and little to no drive as far as toy and food. The short attention span makes training just for praise difficult but it's doable just not enjoyable to work with her.


You must know a ton of people that have imported dogs to make a statement like that. Could you elaborate what problems those tons of people have had with their imports that caused them to feel royally screwed?

I am assuming your Shelby is American bred? You seem to be very disappointed in her from this post and other posts you have made on German Shepherds as a breed in general. Have you owned other German Shepherds or is Shelby your main source of disillusion? Have you considered working with a trainer because you are having trouble maintaining Shelby's focus and seem to be struggling with a reward system for her? Maybe a professional can help you to learn how to train Shelby using a method that works for her although it may not be a method of training that you find satisfying or rewarding.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Reputable breeders in the U,S. sometimes import dogs for their own breeding stock. I agree, if someone doesn’t know what they are doing, doesn’t understand pedigrees or how to research, they might make a mistake. That happens far more often when people buy dogs in N America. I would even go so far as to say most people who import with knowledge get better dogs because they do it with a specific purpose in mind and know what they are getting. If you use a broker, do your research before you buy, not after. Same with buying a domestically bred dog. Research first.

I noticed the people suggesting rescues are new here. Please read and ask questions. If someone wants to rescue a dog, we can offer a lot of advice. I have fostered and rescued. Then I decided I could no longer support BYB and switched to buying. Rescue groups have their own agendas, some good, some not. If you rescue, make sure the group is a quality one. If you get a shelter dog, make sure it’s really a GSD if that is what you want. We are talking about well bred dogs in this thread, not rescues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

iBite said:


> $4500-$5000USD seems outrageous. For that you can get a trained PPD here and


I beg to differ. If someone offered me a trained PPD for that price I would run. Twenty years ago they were more then that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think all in all, OP has to get the dog that they want. If the research is done on breed suitability, selecting a breeder, required health testing and a thorough knowledge of the temperament of the parents, family tree, and breeder's goal at the very least, if this pup meets the criteria, then only OP knows if this pup is affordable to them and whether they are willing to pay that price for a pup that they want. 

If the pup is well bred and health testing has been done, then there should be a marked decrease in health risks. Someone else mentioned buy low and then spend the money on training. If you need (not want, such as advanced training) to spend that kind of money on training, just maybe another breed might be better suited that is less of a challenge.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You must know a ton of people that have imported dogs to make a statement like that. Could you elaborate what problems those tons of people have had with their imports that caused them to feel royally screwed?
> 
> I am assuming your Shelby is American bred? You seem to be very disappointed in her from this post and other posts you have made on German Shepherds as a breed in general. Have you owned other German Shepherds or is Shelby your main source of disillusion? Have you considered working with a trainer because you are having trouble maintaining Shelby's focus and seem to be struggling with a reward system for her? Maybe a professional can help you to learn how to train Shelby using a method that works for her although it may not be a method of training that you find satisfying or rewarding.


I made a long post but I don't want to get too off topic on this thread. Suffice to say I can work with Shelby successfully and have trained her, she just isn't fun to work with and has challenges associated with working with her due to lower drives. Shelby is a good dog, she just isn't an ideal GSD. And it's a common issue with some of the WGSLs brought into the US because they get byb breeders, some of which may seem reputable particularly to somebody who doesn't know what to look for. Shelby's stud was an imported male WGSL from Germany. Shelby has made me aware of some issues in byb/scammy type breeders and to an extent it may be some showlines. Which is why I say be careful of which breeder you choose, not that all are bad. I have no issues with showlines in general, you just have to be aware of what to look out for. People breed for low drive which has some downsides to be aware of and I've seen it as a pretty common marketing gimmick for pet line GSDs, it's a bigger issue when paired with high energy.

As far as imports some may not have gotten the correct dogs. Overseas there are byb/bad breeders as well and people who don't know what to look for are easily taken by the idea of imported dog with good marketing. Some sickly dogs and/or dogs with poor temperament, Same issues you can get in the US. Some dogs that failed to title all the way sold to people in the US. Things like that.

Side note:
As far as GSDs go, like all breeds I am not a fan of hyped up sport lines, extreme show types, and am all too aware of the many types of issues with byb bred dogs. I just happen to be more passionate about GSDs since I do like them as a breed. I can dislike the issues in a breed while still enjoying them otherwise.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Well, that really does not answer my questions. Regardless, many people on this forum highly recommend that people buying a dog or pup to go to clubs, etc., to actually meet some dogs so that they can get familiar with this breed. 

I wouldn't be so quick to target imports if you feel that the same issues are found in US breeders and their dogs. I have bought and owned dogs from both and have not experienced much of a difference from how the dogs were presented and the end product. It was just that imports offered me opportunity to procure lines I prefer to own and how close they are bred down from select dogs but that's a personal preference. 

My showline's sire was an import. I got him to be a go anywhere visual deterrent. His overall drive is lower and he is my highest energy dog but but he is a nicely balanced dog. I don't know if I would call him highly trainable using food or toy rewards but one thing that I can say is that he is absolutely the easiest dog because of his lower drive. He is the kind of dog that requires very little training and with proper exposure, he is the go anywhere dog I had wanted. If I may put a brag in for him, he essentially is a flawless dog for a family pet. He is easy going, NEVER any reactivity whatsoever, can take him to dog parks, does well with all other animals, does well in heavy crowds with no worries, always off leash, can be around livestock, has found himself unexpectedly in the middle of a herd of wild deer and all he did was bounce among them and recalled instantly. I have had more people compliment how well behaved and trained he is and I can easily walk him with multiple dogs. So yea, I would highly recommend a WGSL from close up import lineage not only as a fantastic pet but also a dog well suited to a first time GSD owner. He is what I call a lazy man's dog. 

Ask those experienced on this board who have worked with rescues. The two most common reasons a German Shepherd is surrendered is a lack of training or aggression issues. Those are non issues with a dog like this. His low drive, and he is not my first or even second low drive dog, makes him an ideal family pet for busy families not willing to invest time or energy into a challenging dog. These people just want to get a puppy, house break it and want it to be good with the kids.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Bebe said:


> If you are just wanting a family GSD, why are you looking for a show line pyppy?





Bebe said:


> If you are just wanting a family GSD, why are you looking for a show line pyppy?


Why wouldn't someone want a well bred german showline for a pet? Most german showlines ARE pets!


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## johnorpheus (Jun 25, 2020)

Would I pay 5k for the right puppy that I had done all my research on and determine was the best fit for me? Absolutely. Heck, I'd pay 10k, honestly. Not that I think you'd have to pay that, you certainly wouldn't and shouldn't. My point is is that doing your homework and getting the right dog from the right breeder is absolutely everything, and the amount paid is secondary. Anyone saying it is a crap shoot doesn't know what they're talking about, and are just trying to justify spending peanuts on a dog from a BYB. You're getting a dog that will be your companion for 10-13 years, so do extremely thorough research and vetting and get the right dog for you. What is the cost of that? It varies, but it certainly isn't $500 or whatever BYBs are charging these days.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

People can get very lucky with a rescue or a poorly bred dog and find the exact temperament, drive, energy level and structure they want. In reality and in my personal experience and observation, rescue owners or BYB buyers often get one trait they really want and put up with the rest or deal with it through exposure and training. My purchased WL has more drive than I wanted at the time, but his temperament and personality are exactly what I wanted. When he’s not “on” he is mellow. He is crazy smart and biddable. He is the best trained dog I’ve ever had. He’s playful. He has very strong scenting ability. He is a good watch dog. He is good with family. He had some health problems but it is very likely due to early parasites and treatment, not genetics. He has excellent structure. 

I can’t say any of that about my rescues. I’ve never bought from a BYB. All purchased dogs were from good breeders that I researched thoroughly. My rescues have or had some good traits and some problems. Most were behavioral. I was able to train a lot of the negatives out of them, which has a good side. I became a much better handler than I would have been with easy dogs.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, that really does not answer my questions. Regardless, many people on this forum highly recommend that people buying a dog or pup to go to clubs, etc., to actually meet some dogs so that they can get familiar with this breed.
> 
> I wouldn't be so quick to target imports if you feel that the same issues are found in US breeders and their dogs. I have bought and owned dogs from both and have not experienced much of a difference from how the dogs were presented and the end product. It was just that imports offered me opportunity to procure lines I prefer to own and how close they are bred down from select dogs but that's a personal preference.
> 
> ...


The person I was responding basically said that all import is just fine and you have the same chances of a good dog from any breeder because they are better at breeding overseas. But that is incorrect and you need to do just as much if not more research if you are getting a dog overseas because of that. I didn't say don't import and it's great for uses like bringing in new blood, it just isn't magically better and can be just as bad as US breeders. Some people in some countries still hard cull off standard puppies (livers and blues...) so you can import those dogs and start increasing the number of off standard puppies you produce if you produce any at all. Of course with genetic testing you can see what they carry now. So again if you don't know the breeder is good or have contacts that can vouch for them/help you find a good breeder you may as well tak the risk on a byb dog in the US was my point, if price is that much of a hindrance. 

And yes I even said Shelby is a good pet, she sounds very similar to him, but she is not in my mind what I would expect from a good GSD. She is high enough energy if she doesn't get enough exercise on a regular basis (not per day but overtime) she will destroy something out of boredom. That's on the fault of the owner not the dog though and is a common issue with higher energy dogs and since she is low drive it can be harder to find proper outlets along with the good trot making it harder to adequately exercise her. (was a non issue when I lived there as I do a lot with the dogs) So again, downsides to the lower drive. For a GSD you should expect enough drive to work with them, it doesn't need to be over the top but it shouldn't be near non-existant. 

And my issue was specifically combining the lower drive with higher energy, you take your dog everywhere, not everybody does that. So that higher energy still needs an outlet and a lot of people use fetch for that, which can be difficult to train especially for buyer like what you just described. 

I also feel like you miss my point of making sure to find a good breeder. I didn't say don't buy WGSL imports I said be careful of which ones you buy from. Which should go for any breeder. A lot of this is also regional, in my area I wouldn't touch the far majority of breeders here with a 10 foot pole. The dog's from Shelby's breeder are a trainwreck now, they're several generations past Shelby and having seen some of those pups in person they are just sad. I guess higher energy doesn't matter if the dog can barely walk proper. The dog breeding industry just has a lot of scammers now so yes I will harp on being selective of what dogs you buy. I know a lot of the curve has to do with stacks, but I've seen dogs who are shaped like that regardless of being stacked or not and that is an issue.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry, I thought when you made generic comments such as a ton of people get royally screwed by purchasing a dog overseas or that an imported puppy from health tested, titled parents that wasn't pick of the litter is no different than a puppy from parents that aren't tested, titled or maybe even papered born in the USA to a backyard breeder that you spoke from experience or that of another person. I wonder what breeders in the USA do with their crap/culls. Sell them as pets maybe?

I know of some of the best lines that carry blue and liver. A good dog can't be a bad color. I had a blue and know of others who have had them. It is a recessive that must be carried by both parents. My blue dog had an American showline mother from very well known lines. I don't think blue is exclusive to import lines. Anyhow, she was a fantastic dog. Her only problem was a fear of thuderstorms and fireworks. Her irrational fear was the ultimate root of her demise but it was not color related. 

There are plenty of outlets for a low drive dog to burn energy. In fact, because they are such easy dogs, I have found them easier to exercise because they have fewer restrictions due to their mellow temperaments.









"


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry, I thought when you made generic comments such as a ton of people get royally screwed by purchasing a dog overseas or that an imported puppy from health tested, titled parents that wasn't pick of the litter is no different than a puppy from parents that aren't tested, titled or maybe even papered born in the USA to a backyard breeder that you spoke from experience or that of another person. I wonder what breeders in the USA do with their crap/culls. Sell them as pets maybe?
> 
> I know of some of the best lines that carry blue and liver. A good dog can't be a bad color. I had a blue and know of others who have had them. It is a recessive that must be carried by both parents. My blue dog had an American showline mother from very well known lines. I don't think blue is exclusive to import lines. Anyhow, she was a fantastic dog. Her only problem was a fear of thuderstorms and fireworks. Her irrational fear was the ultimate root of her demise but it was not color related.
> 
> ...



It’s more the fact that people hide that the genes are there by hard culling the off colors. It’s one thing to know that the line carries it, it’s another to hide it like it’s a dirty secret. Off color pups I see no issues with just soft culling them to pet homes. Unless dogs are a total train wreck they should easily be able to be soft culled to pet homes if they aren’t breeding worthy.

There are countries other than Germany that dogs can be imported from, and still be from overseas, not everything imported from overseas even WGSL is going to be health tested and titled. And there’s a difference between an adult cull getting sold because they can’t breed it in Germany vs. getting a puppy from a good litter just not getting the arbitrary “best” puppy unless the puppy received has health/temperament issues. My dogs with drive are a lot easier to exercise than Shelby, and a lot more fun. They’re fine with a hike or I can do specific activities we both enjoy. You can have a mellow easy going dog and have drive, they aren’t seperate entities that can‘t co-exist. A dog with no off switch that can’t settle can happen in low drive or higher drive dogs. Our previous ASL GSD was an amazing dog. Healthy until the end with what I think was DM and died of bloat. He was easy going, great with other dogs, people, kids. He had higher drive and less energy than Shelby. A much more settled, confident, and well rounded dog temperament wise. His biggest flaw was head butts to the nose when giving him attention.

Edit/add on: I do think there is a huge genetic component but I wonder how much the fear issues and other problems have been exacerbated by early altering in the US.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> It’s more the fact that people hide that the genes are there by hard culling the off colors. It’s one thing to know that the line carries it, it’s another to hide it like it’s a dirty secret. Off color pups I see no issues with just soft culling them to pet homes. Unless dogs are a total train wreck they should easily be able to be soft culled to pet homes if they aren’t breeding worthy.
> 
> There are countries other than Germany that dogs can be imported from, and still be from overseas, not everything imported from overseas even WGSL is going to be health tested and titled. And there’s a difference between an adult cull getting sold because they can’t breed it in Germany vs. getting a puppy from a good litter just not getting the arbitrary “best” puppy unless the puppy received has health/temperament issues. My dogs with drive are a lot easier to exercise than Shelby, and a lot more fun. They’re fine with a hike or I can do specific activities we both enjoy. You can have a mellow easy going dog and have drive, they aren’t seperate entities that can‘t co-exist. A dog with no off switch that can’t settle can happen in low drive or higher drive dogs. Our previous ASL GSD was an amazing dog. Healthy until the end with what I think was DM and died of bloat. He was easy going, great with other dogs, people, kids. He had higher drive and less energy than Shelby. A much more settled, confident, and well rounded dog temperament wise. His biggest flaw was head butts to the nose when giving him attention.
> 
> Edit/add on: I do think there is a huge genetic component but I wonder how much the fear issues and other problems have been exacerbated by early altering in the US.


People hide genetics in American lines too. How do you think I got my blue dog from an American showline bitch? Can't target imports for that.

OP is looking to purchase a pup. Simpler to stay on topic by discussing puppies and their parentage. You are taking this topic all over the place. We can't discuss all possibilities. 

I disagree that a dog with high or strong drives being naturally mellow. That doesn't mean that high drive don't have an off switch or can't be good pets. There are other traits that interplay with drives but low drive is usually associated with soft, often mellow, dogs.

You absolutely can take a low drive, high energy dog on long hikes. I even prefer them because they are easy and I don't have to monitor them constantly. My showline will go all day. If I can't exercise him, he is always up to a good romp with one of my other dogs or at the dog park. Like I said before, low drive dogs are easy keepers.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You absolutely can take a low drive, high energy dog on long hikes. I even prefer them because they are easy and I don't have to monitor them constantly. My showline will go all day. If I can't exercise him, he is always up to a good romp with one of my other dogs or at the dog park. Like I said before, low drive dogs are easy keepers.


although it’s not my favorite combo present day, i agree with most of this. Tilden was my wgsl and although all of my gsd have been equally well adjusted, go anywhere, kid friendly dogs - he was by far the easiest keeper and what you think of when picturing a good ol family dog. mellow and laid back but would rise to any occasion in order to keep up with my younger dog. the difference in their training and learning curve were at near opposite ends of the spectrum, but the _*need*_ for training was far less with T. every time i read a new poster (young active family) explain what they’re looking for, i always think of Tilden. not necessarily what i think breeders should strive for, but definitely would satisfy a very large market.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Kazel said:


> $4-5k is outrageous in the US, I've only seen one person say it was a reasonable price to pay. I'd never pay over $2,000 for a well bred GSD in the US although there are some good breeders at $2.5k but anything over that is seriously just a huge waste of money. Mostly people marketing a name rather than the puppies being worth that much. But I mean people are buying doodles for $5,000 so there's that.


Crap/cull dogs are often given away for free locally. Why would a good breeder risk their reputation by putting their name on a dog they know is terrible and sell it internationally? They’re just happy to give the crap dogs a good home. Dogs they export tend to be the best of the best... it’s like a status thing to export a dog.

Edit: sorry I quoted the wrong part of your post and I’m too lazy to go back and fix it... anyway, you know what you said 😂


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

iBite said:


> Crap/cull dogs are often given away for free locally. Why would a good breeder risk their reputation by putting their name on a dog they know is terrible and sell it internationally? They’re just happy to give the crap dogs a good home. Dogs they export tend to be the best of the best... it’s like a status thing to export a dog.
> 
> Edit: sorry I quoted the wrong part of your post and I’m too lazy to go back and fix it... anyway, you know what you said 😂


Depends on the breeder, not all breeders are good breeders. I feel like people miss the whole point of me saying make sure to find a good one. It’s more people saying imports are somehow magically better because they are imports like there aren’t bad breeders and scammers everywhere. Basically you need to do research regardless of what country you’re buying the dog from.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There are bad breeders in any country and even "reputable" is subjective depending on one's criteria. 

What was said that people are objecting to is the broad generalization that was made insinuating that import dogs were crap dogs because European breeders only send their culls here. That is inaccurate. It can happen, doesn't mean it always or usually happens. 

Personally, I would generalize to say that many breeders don't even have culls. Once again, cull is subjective. I got my coatie because the buyer backed out because he didn't want a coatie and he became available. The breeder said people don't want coats in her country so I said send him along. Does that make him a cull? I had him sold at a nice profit (and I wasn't trying to sell him) before he hit the states based on his breeder's reputation and the difficulty in obtaining one of her dogs in the states let alone this particular breeding, but I didn't purchase him with the intent of resale and kept him.


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## Tee (Dec 5, 2019)

robmypro said:


> I am just looking for a good family dog.


 I suggest you go to a shelter than! My 1st German shepherd was the amazing gypsy girl and I rescued her from a shelter where she had been living for 7 months! It cost me $50


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Kazel said:


> Depends on the breeder, not all breeders are good breeders. I feel like people miss the whole point of me saying make sure to find a good one. It’s more people saying imports are somehow magically better because they are imports like there aren’t bad breeders and scammers everywhere. Basically you need to do research regardless of what country you’re buying the dog from.


I thought it was a given that anyone could potentially put a bag of potatoes in a crate, call it a dog and put it on a plane 😉 ...but outside of that, as long as you’re getting the dog you think you’re getting, that’s precisely what the rating system is intended for. Results of the previous progeny effect the ratings of the parents... so even if someone randomly bought a pair of dogs to breed, you’ll be able to see from the registered puppies whether or not the breeder is a “good” breeder. No one can buy a pair of “good” dogs, and backdoor a few dozen puppies from a different pair under their name because they would effect the ratings of the “good” dogs. Under that system, whole idea of “asking to see the parents” and “meeting the breeder” is pointless... like, what is the average buyer going to say that professional judges already didn’t?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

iBite said:


> I thought it was a given that anyone could potentially put a bag of potatoes in a crate, call it a dog and put it on a plane 😉 ...but outside of that, as long as you’re getting the dog you think you’re getting, that’s precisely what the rating system is intended for. Results of the previous progeny effect the ratings of the parents... so even if someone randomly bought a pair of dogs to breed, you’ll be able to see from the registered puppies whether or not the breeder is a “good” breeder. No one can buy a pair of “good” dogs, and backdoor a few dozen puppies from a different pair under their name because they would effect the ratings of the “good” dogs. Under that system, whole idea of “asking to see the parents” and “meeting the breeder” is pointless... like, what is the average buyer going to say that professional judges already didn’t?


Are you saying that titles and ratings are foolproof? Because titles can be bought, and are all the time, and falsified papers happen with alarming frequency. 
I would much rather bank on a breeder I have built a relationship with then trust papers.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Are you saying that titles and ratings are foolproof? Because titles can be bought, and are all the time, and falsified papers happen with alarming frequency.
> I would much rather bank on a breeder I have built a relationship with then trust papers.


Pretty much 😈 (with exceptions)... it’s the same system that breeders themselves rely on unless they’re using their own 6 dogs for breeding an entire line... but I digress... no one is saying imports are _better_ or if you already have a breeder not to go with them, but a person who doesn’t know a random breeder from a hole in the wall would probably be better off learning the rating system than browsing websites or google reviews or meeting breeders. Funny story, I once bought a dog from a “reputable breeder”... who people aren’t even allowed to talk about or describe because they’ll get sued lol ...they look all kinds of legit but they’re essentially a puppy mill. Their dogs are so inbred that it’s astonishing they can still even reproduce at this point... if there was a rating system in North America it would at least prevent THAT from happening.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I honestly don’t know why anyone would go through the trouble of importing a dog for a family pet. It’s not something I recommend if you don’t know what you’re looking for. You can also end up pretty disappointed if you do it and you’re trying to compete in sports or conformation if you don’t know what you’re looking for. It happens with domestic dogs, but at least then you’re dealing with someone in your country. Most imports also don’t come with health guarantees. I don’t agree that simply learning a zw is a better answer than meeting breeders and dogs. The best answer is learning the breed and finding a knowledgeable guide to help you.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are bad breeders in any country and even "reputable" is subjective depending on one's criteria.
> 
> What was said that people are objecting to is the broad generalization that was made insinuating that import dogs were crap dogs because European breeders only send their culls here. That is inaccurate. It can happen, doesn't mean it always or usually happens.
> 
> Personally, I would generalize to say that many breeders don't even have culls. Once again, cull is subjective. I got my coatie because the buyer backed out because he didn't want a coatie and he became available. The breeder said people don't want coats in her country so I said send him along. Does that make him a cull? I had him sold at a nice profit (and I wasn't trying to sell him) before he hit the states based on his breeder's reputation and the difficulty in obtaining one of her dogs in the states let alone this particular breeding, but I didn't purchase him with the intent of resale and kept him.



_
As far as importing a ton of people in the US get royally screwed over by importing dogs.* Unless you have trustworthy contacts overseas or 100% know the breed is amazing and worth buying* from you might as well buy an $800 backyard bred pup. Then at least you actually get the puppy you were trying to buy. A ton of breeders in Europe also sell their crap/culls that can't make the cut in Europe to people in the US who think they're getting a good deal a good dog. That's why I'd be very very careful buying a WGSL in general. They tend to at least be good pets, but trainability and health is iffy. Shelby is my GSD from a wgsl cull stud, she's a lovely pet, but she just isn't very trainable as far as how you would expect a GSD to be. Very short attention span and little to no drive as far as toy and food. The short attention span makes training just for praise difficult but it's doable just not enjoyable to work with her. _

This was my orginal post, could I have typed it better, and been less generalized? Yes. But read the bold, I never said import dogs were crap. I'm usually better at being less generalized but I wasn't in this case so I do agree that is an issue. But I do not like the fallacy that import dogs are better and I did not like somebody saying you do not have to do any research when buying imports. I was probably overdramatic in my reply but there is still a significant issue with import dogs just like there are issues in the US with dogs if you don't take your time to find a good breeder. For example I'd buy a ranch bred border collie in the US because then I have almost zero concerns about epilepsy, not so in some other countries.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Most imports also don’t come with health guarantees.


Because you’re not paying for 2-5 dogs up front in the event they have to replace one... a “health guarantee” doesn’t guarantee health, it’s just an exchange policy... is anyone really going to exchange their dog though?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

iBite said:


> Pretty much 😈 (with exceptions)... it’s the same system that breeders themselves rely on unless they’re using their own 6 dogs for breeding an entire line... but I digress... no one is saying imports are _better_ or if you already have a breeder not to go with them, but a person who doesn’t know a random breeder from a hole in the wall would probably be better off learning the rating system than browsing websites or google reviews or meeting breeders. Funny story, I once bought a dog from a “reputable breeder”... who people aren’t even allowed to talk about or describe because they’ll get sued lol ...they look all kinds of legit but they’re essentially a puppy mill. Their dogs are so inbred that it’s astonishing they can still even reproduce at this point... if there was a rating system in North America it would at least prevent THAT from happening.


I guess we are going to agree to disagree. I know people who have imported dogs. Some good, some bad. Two brokers who were sued, successfully, after DNA proved the dogs they sold were not the dogs purchased. One started dog that was bought as a sport prospect and arrived a raging lunatic that could not be safely handled. 
No earthly reason to import. 
And I am sorry but no puppy mill could fool me into thinking they were a decent breeder. And even with my limited knowledge of pedigrees I know what inbreeding looks like.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> And I am sorry but no puppy mill could fool me into thinking they were a decent breeder. And even with my limited knowledge of pedigrees I know what inbreeding looks like.


You don’t when they just keep every other female puppy and use them for breeding... claiming each litter had a dozen puppies... by the time you realize they were registering their 75th $5,000 puppy in February, it’s already October and they have enough money to sue everyone who says anything about them.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

iBite said:


> Because you’re not paying for 2-5 dogs up front in the event they have to replace one... a “health guarantee” doesn’t guarantee health, it’s just an exchange policy... is anyone really going to exchange their dog though?


First, you are vastly overstating the difference in price. The price of the dog and shipping usually comes out about the same if not more. If you really disagree on that, feel free to share how much you paid to get your last import home. 2 thousand or there about is the going price around me. Second, returning a dog for health problems is a personal decision, one nobody should be criticized for. Third, I will take a lifetime guarantee against genetic health issues over not having anything anyway. A health guarantee more than anything else, shows a breeder willing to stand behind the dogs they produce. It also says something that a reputable american breeder will take back any of their dogs no questions asked to prevent them from being abandoned or ending up in shelters. Third, that zw rating you praise so much, only accounts for hip dysplasia. There is a whole lot of other health factors to consider. That doesn't even touch on temperament, energy levels, drive or conformation. Its a very small tool. It literally says that it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We should remember this thread was originally about the cost of a dog, and we helped the OP made a decision. Then we got off into an import disagreement, Can’t we just agree that no matter where dogs are bred, a prospective buyer should carefully research breeders before buying a puppy from anyone? Most of the problems people come here for help with are dogs that are from BYBs or are rescues, and the owners are usually new to the breed or inexperienced with the challenges the dog they now own presents them. Rarely does someone have serious or significant problems with a well bred dog. If they do, it is usually handler error or inexperience rather than poor breeding. If people would ask about a breeder or breeding before buying, like the OP did, we can offer a lot of help and suggestions to keep someone from making a big mistake.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have spent enough time in the dog world to wish anyone a lot of luck returning a dog for a health problem even to a reputable breeder especially if the condition can not be proven to be 100% genetic. It happens, but not to the degree that some people think.

I am not going to drag other members of this forum into this, but I know that I have seen members that are heavily involved with rescue stating how many dogs from reputable breeders can be found dumped in shelters. 

I wish you a lot of luck finding dogs trained to the equivalent of a ZVV3 in the US. The independent work done without a handler on the field is pretty impressive. Then you have the illusive service dog breeding programs available to select breeders overseas that simply don't exist in the US. Yea, some breeders are breeding for service dogs here but the majority that I have seen are importing the majority of the dogs in their programs. Most police departments that I am aware of that procure their own dogs also buy from overseas. Things that make you go hmmmmm.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> We should remember this thread was originally about the cost of a dog, and we helped the OP made a decision. Then we got off into an import disagreement, Can’t we just agree that no matter where dogs are bred, a prospective buyer should carefully research breeders before buying a puppy from anyone? Most of the problems people come here for help with are dogs that are from BYBs or are rescues, and the owners are usually new to the breed or inexperienced with the challenges the dog they now own presents them. Rarely does someone have serious or significant problems with a well bred dog. If they do, it is usually handler error or inexperience rather than poor breeding. If people would ask about a breeder or breeding before buying, like the OP did, we can offer a lot of help and suggestions to keep someone from making a big mistake.


This! Few things derail a topic quicker than disparaging other peoples' dogs without validity be that dog a mixed shelter GSD or a well bred import.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> First, you are vastly overstating the difference in price. The price of the dog and shipping usually comes out about the same if not more. If you really disagree on that, feel free to share how much you paid to get your last import home. 2 thousand or there about is the going price around me.


You’d never believe me if I told you... but for $2,000USD you can literally fly there and bring back a pretty good puppy yourself. An actual puppy in Europe costs less than what a dog carrier in North America goes for.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Most police departments that I am aware of that procure their own dogs also buy from overseas.



The RCMP run their own breeding program and supply dogs to many Canadian police departments as well. I believe some of the pups go into service work, detection work or other areas as well. 
And I have not seen these $5000 dogs except from one or two commercial kennels.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> The RCMP run their own breeding program and supply dogs to many Canadian police departments as well.


No they don’t 😉


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

iBite said:


> No they don’t 😉


Ninety-four percent (94%) of the German shepherds working today as RCMP service dogs were born at the PDSTC as part of the RCMP Police Dog Breeding Program. 








Winners of the 2018 RCMP Name the Puppy contest have been chosen


The RCMP Police Dog Service Training Centre (PDSTC) is pleased to announce the winners of the 2018 Name the Puppy contest. 'Thank you to all the children who sent in their suggestions,' said Staff Sergeant Gary Creed, acting Officer in Charge of the PDSTC. 'We couldn't be more proud of our pups...




haligonia.ca




.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just in case that was not enough info:


Training Programs - Royal Canadian Mounted Police



I was trained by a former RCMP dog handler.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Tee said:


> I suggest you go to a shelter than! My 1st German shepherd was the amazing gypsy girl and I rescued her from a shelter where she had been living for 7 months! It cost me $50


Kind of a pet peeve, but it's "then" not "than"! Then denotes something to follow, "than" is comparison term. That is, this IS better THAN that. Just sayin...


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Just in case that was not enough info:
> 
> 
> Training Programs - Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.



So anywhooo....to get back to you. Yes, you can find a good puppy for much less, right here in the states. Since your thread was totally derailed, why don't you start a thread asking for breeders and list what you want, are you willing to ship, and how much you can spend.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> So anywhooo....to get back to you. Yes, you can find a good puppy for much less, right here in the states. Since your thread was totally derailed, why don't you start a thread asking for breeders and list what you want, are you willing to ship, and how much you can spend.


They’ve got one...


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

at those prices I will looking for a American Wolfdog,Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Or anything unique.


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## 491527 (Jan 11, 2020)

gsdsteve said:


> And you are supporting a backyard breeder. Shameful!


She is not a backyard breeder in a negative manner. She breeds her female every couple of years and screen buyers who pay for their CBC. Anyone with a questionable history is not allowed to adopt her dogs. 

We had a trained Doberman who we purchased for 4k 25 years ago so we are not opposed to buying from a reputable breeder for protection, search and rescue or K9 work. But I would not pay that for a family pet.

Please don't shame individuals for their choices when you do not have the information needed to make an accurate assessment of the situation. There is enough ugly in the world without perpetuating it.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Any reason no one has listed some working line breeders? Is it not allowed?


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

kr16 said:


> Any reason no one has listed some working line breeders? Is it not allowed?


It's allowed but the OP is/was looking at show line breeders. 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Thank you, saw the W and didn't read it through. I was curious as I will be looking for a working line pup soon and want some recommendations. I will look around the site


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

kr16 said:


> Thank you, saw the W and didn't read it through. I was curious as I will be looking for a working line pup soon and want some recommendations. I will look around the site


What caliber of one? I know of a good breeding happening in GA! A super nice one in PA. Both will be a strong litter and the parents have stellar temperaments. PM me if interested!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

kr16 said:


> Thank you, saw the W and didn't read it through. I was curious as I will be looking for a working line pup soon and want some recommendations. I will look around the site


There are more WL owners on this site than anything else. Read all the old breeder posts.Go to the Forums link at the top of the page and scroll down for the breeder section. Also ask. So many here know the different lines and pedigrees.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

491527 said:


> She is not a backyard breeder in a negative manner. She breeds her female every couple of years and screen buyers who pay for their CBC. Anyone with a questionable history is not allowed to adopt her dogs.
> 
> We had a trained Doberman who we purchased for 4k 25 years ago so we are not opposed to buying from a reputable breeder for protection, search and rescue or K9 work. But I would not pay that for a family pet.
> 
> Please don't shame individuals for their choices when you do not have the information needed to make an accurate assessment of the situation. There is enough ugly in the world without perpetuating it.


The chances of getting a well bred dog from a sire and dam who have had all the health testing and OFA certifications for 500$ is almost nonexistent! A well bred working line pup from a REPUTABLE breeder is going to be more than 500$. More like $1500+.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

gsdsteve said:


> The chances of getting a well bred dog from a sire and dam who have had all the health testing and OFA certifications for 500$ is almost nonexistent! A well bred working line pup from a REPUTABLE breeder is going to be more than 500$. More like $1500+.


WGSL seem to be closer to $2500 now.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> WGSL seem to be closer to $2500 now.


In this area it's more like $3500.!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

gsdsteve said:


> In this area it's more like $3500.!


That doesn’t surprise me either. Titling a WGSL is expensive as are imports. Prices are based on demand and what people will spend but also on breeding costs, going back to the price of the parents or other back in the line purchased by the breeder.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Crazy?! wow prices skyrocketed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

hirakawa199006 said:


> Crazy?! wow prices skyrocketed.


SL prices that I have seen are $2500-3500 on average. I would not look at anything much higher because it has been the bigger more commercial kennels that seem to be above that. At least that I have seen.
That said, all else being equal, Id rather spend more on a dog from healthy stock then spend money on the backside fixing issues that I could have avoided to start with.
I noted a Kijiji ad last week advertising what appeared to be WL pups for $3000. I briefly debated telling them they were crazy.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You can get a good wgsl puppy and not pay that amount. In my experience the price can range $2,600- $4,000 for a wgsl puppy. A puppy is no guarantee I would not pay in the higher range for a puppy. A lot depending on the size of the faculty most big commercial operations costs are reflected in the price, along with the amount of health testing, training cost/titles each dam and sire have. I have a dog from Hollow Hills incredible family dog social nice well rounded take anywhere dog. Other wgsl breeders would be Alta tollhaus, and Theishoff.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Just in case that was not enough info:
> 
> 
> Training Programs - Royal Canadian Mounted Police
> ...


I have seen several of their videos on youtube and they seem to be doing things very well. The brood dogs are in smaller decentralized situations and it seems like they turn out really great ones. I love seeing that as opposed to one large kennel with dogs that receive very little interaction.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Dont know how strict the import laws are in the States. Here they cost around 1600$ well bred with pedigree showline gsd.


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## Evalynn (Apr 20, 2020)

For an 8 week old pup, this is too much. If they keep the pup until 12-16 weeks and put some foundational training in, then this might be acceptable. I certainly wouldn't pay this much for a pet.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Tee said:


> I suggest you go to a shelter than! My 1st German shepherd was the amazing gypsy girl and I rescued her from a shelter where she had been living for 7 months! It cost me $50


I looked at a 14 week purebred GSD at a shelter just before COVID and I think adoption fees were about $500, not sure. He was a good looking pup that had been supposedly turned in by an older couple that forgot how much work a young puppy was....I've heard that one before, exactly the story with my previous dog but from a good breeder.

You have no idea what you're getting from a shelter but I think better odds with a mix from them.

PS there were 140+ applications to adopt the shelter GSD. They don't often get purebreds so had a lottery instead. Owners still had to pass an approval process


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I looked at a 14 week purebred GSD at a shelter just before COVID and I think adoption fees were about $500, not sure. He was a good looking pup that had been supposedly turned in by an older couple that forgot how much work a young puppy was....I've heard that one before, exactly the story with my previous dog but from a good breeder.
> 
> You have no idea what you're getting from a shelter but I think better odds with a mix from them.
> 
> PS there were 140+ applications to adopt the shelter GSD. They don't often get purebreds so had a lottery instead. Owners still had to pass an approval process


I found that too. Right before I bought my male puppy, I saw a female at the shelter that sounded perfect. Partially trained, purebred, excellent temperament. By the time I called the dog had been pulled by my least favorite rescue. When I checked with them, they were using the female to get donations (“With your financial help we can save more dogs just like this one.” even thought they rarely get one for the shelter. But worse, the dog was already promised before they even signed the paperwork. Another reason I dislike that rescue.)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I found that too. Right before I bought my male puppy, I saw a female at the shelter that sounded perfect. Partially trained, purebred, excellent temperament. By the time I called the dog had been pulled by my least favorite rescue. When I checked with them, they were using the female to get donations (“With your financial help we can save more dogs just like this one.” even thought they rarely get one for the shelter. But worse, the dog was already promised before they even signed the paperwork. Another reason I dislike that rescue.)


A lot of shelters don't put some types of purebreds up for adoption, saving them all for rescues.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

WNGD said:


> I looked at a 14 week purebred GSD at a shelter just before COVID and I think adoption fees were about $500, not sure. He was a good looking pup that had been supposedly turned in by an older couple that forgot how much work a young puppy was....I've heard that one before, exactly the story with my previous dog but from a good breeder.
> 
> You have no idea what you're getting from a shelter but I think better odds with a mix from them.
> 
> PS there were 140+ applications to adopt the shelter GSD. They don't often get purebreds so had a lottery instead. Owners still had to pass an approval process


One thing to always take into account is that purebred does not mean well bred!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

gsdsteve said:


> One thing to always take into account is that purebred does not mean well bred!


Absolutely. The couple who dropped off the dog left zero information on the breeder


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Males are the easiest to find and reserve. The reason for the high price is the WG imports are being inflated by greed (in europe) as well as shipping expense. Being a good and responsible breeder today is expensive and had work. A hobby breeder has not likely been to concerned about genetics. However, Europeans have no issue breeding borderline hips. I am weeding out kennels/breeders myself and am finding that quite a few are arrogant and think they command the world of German Shepherd Dogs. If I could find a good breeding for $4000, I would take it but I haven't found one that clicked. Breeders will throw a lot of facts out like they know everything. A lot is B. S. and you can't believe what they say. If a breeder has a genetic warranty that is only for a year or two, they don't have a lot of faith in the breeding IMO. Good luck.


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## Dave1205 (Jul 25, 2020)

robmypro said:


> I haven’t been in the market for a German Shepherd puppy in a long time, but is $4,000 to $5,000 not outrageous for a WGSL puppy, assuming everything checks out regarding the breeder, dam and sire?
> 
> BTW, I don’t want to mention the breeder because i don’t want this topic to get totally derailed.


I would suggest that you adopt an adult german shepherd. Check your area for rescues. Why pay $4500 for a puppy that may not grow into the dog you want? Nothing wrong with shelter dogs. Imagine meeting 5 or more dogs in an afternoon or two.
Would you pay $5000 for a jacket you won't be wearing? Don't pay $5000 for a show dog you won't be showing.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A showline is a line you do not have to want to show to want to get a showline. A reputable Shelter/ rescue dogs can be good option if wanting an older dog and looking to adopt. I would imagine it be more challenging to find puppies at rescues but can happens. I was never a puppy person but became since having young kids I opted to go that route. AN old story about a man adopted a dog and the dog wound saving his life. Hero Dog Saves Elderly Novato Man From Carbon Monoxide Poisoning


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Suggest you get an adoption. Mine is awesome. 3-7yrs old is a good start to find. 5K is just outrageous. At those prices I would not think about any dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It may be very difficult to adopt a dog right now. I checked the available dogs list at the rescue I used in the past, and they have less than half the number of dogs they usually do. I looked at several rescues and all are short of adoptable dogs. One said right on the page that the dogs they have must be the only dog in the home and have not yet been adopted because they are not good with other dogs. I looked at another breed and their large rescue had 7 dogs. Unless you want to adopt a problem, be very careful about any adoptions right now. I am guessing when we open up again a lot of the Covid puppies and adopted dogs are going to land right back in rescue again.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Yes a lot of adoptions when this CoVid-19 is over. People are impulse buying puppies like mad in Europe due they are at home working at the moment. When this is over I guess a lot of stranded dogs.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

For a good family dog look in shelters. They are full of fine dogs that need homes and will repay you tenfold for any love and attention you give them. Expensive pure bred dogs are for people that want to participate and win in dog shows.


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## Tee (Dec 5, 2019)

I totally agree!!.. I can't even imagine contemplating paying $4500 for any dog... Go to the shelter get one for $50 donate the rest.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The OP wants to buy a dog.
OP has the means to buy a dog.
I don’t understand this urge to discourage it.
Good breeders need to be supported.
“Expensive pure bred dogs are for people that want to participate and win in dog shows.” is a statement that shows me that people have no clue what a good breeder does, goes through, and has to spend.
That’s all I will say.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

I don't believe anyone downgraded dog breeders but advising a novice dog buyer that spending several thousand dollars is necessary to buy a nice, sound, family companion is not the way to support the industry regardless of whether the buyer has the monetary means or not.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I am shocked by some of these crazy replies.
> Just a pet? There is no job more important and more deserving of thought and planning. This is the animal that will share your home, sleep with your children and be your companion for the next decade plus.
> Breeders one step above puppy mills? Clearly you've never seen a puppy mill. That's just an insult.
> And this whole health issue thing? I have spent more on Shadow in a month then I spent on Bud in his lifetime. My little debt builder here has had allergy issues, skin problems, heart issues, joint problems, eye issues, injuries as a direct result of poor health. She needs to be on specific food, I have to regulate exercise and to top it all off she has a crappy temperament and is prone to biting.
> ...


I said this 8 months ago, and I will say it today, and 10 years from now I will still be saying it!
As I sit here sorting through the receipts for the dozen or so vet visits in the last 8 months, looking at my dog that I still have no way ahead for, pondering that of her 4 legs only one remains uninjured and fully useable.
Because you know what never changes regardless of price? How much we love them. 
Free-$4500 and everything in between, I would rather spend the money upfront then sit here with my dog that is my life knowing that there is nothing I can do. I will keep throwing money at the issues and praying to every God I can think of, but my dog is never going to live a whole life or be pain free or feel good so at the end of the day where was the bargain in the free dog? And who got it?
BTW, all of you who got wonderful, happy, healthy dogs from shelters or BYB's, I'm really happy for you. Do you suppose the other 8-10 puppies in those litters were as lucky?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

CEMC said:


> I don't believe anyone downgraded dog breeders but advising a novice dog buyer that spending several thousand dollars is necessary to buy a nice, sound, family companion is not the way to support the industry regardless of whether the buyer has the monetary means or not.


It isn’t?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

CEMC said:


> I don't believe anyone downgraded dog breeders but advising a novice dog buyer that spending several thousand dollars is necessary to buy a nice, sound, family companion is not the way to support the industry regardless of whether the buyer has the monetary means or not.


We actually don’t do that, including the person wrote the post you are talking about. We don’t tell people how much to spend, we explain what they should be getting for the amount they ask about. There is no way to compare a shelter dog with a dog that has a known pedigree, unless the shelter dog’s pedigree is also known. I have a former shelter dog I adopted as a puppy who was spayed at 8 weeks. I really wanted that dog, and bonded with her. I didn’t realize she was spayed before going into the rescue until after I adopted her and was mailed the paperwork. It was not good for her overall health and I would never do that again.

Most of us who bought from a quality breeder spent anywhere from $2,000 or more for our dogs. Are you aware of what you get for that amount vs for less?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

CEMC said:


> For a good family dog look in shelters. They are full of fine dogs that need homes and will repay you tenfold for any love and attention you give them. Expensive pure bred dogs are for people that want to participate and win in dog shows.


Expensive is relative. I buy my dogs from a breeder so I will know what to expect from her lines and dogs. All animals vary but there are known elements when buying from a breeder as opposed to a rescue. All have their good points, depends on what you want.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Their website starts with puppies for sale and show newborns.
I never like the phrases "world class", "the finest" etc. The website would turn me away.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

CEMC said:


> I don't believe anyone downgraded dog breeders but advising a novice dog buyer that spending several thousand dollars is necessary to buy a nice, sound, family companion is not the way to support the industry regardless of whether the buyer has the monetary means or not.


Everyone starts off as a novice. I don’t understand why I wouldn’t tell someone, regardless of their situation, to get the best dog that they can fit their situation. Objectively, you’re more likely to get a better, more versatile dog going with a reputable breeder than bargain hunting. If I want someone to love the breed, I will push them to the best possible example of the breed and for them to have the best experience.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> Their website starts with puppies for sale and show newborns.
> I never like the phrases "world class", "the finest" etc. The website would turn me away.


Search for the oldest existing breeder might help. Most here dont even have website, despite this their name are famous and so already out for publicity.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It depends on your location. I think it is a little high, but it depends somewhat on your cost of living where you are.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

We’ve been looking for a new puppy and in the NoVa region, most WGSL puppies start at $3,500. Pet store GSD pups cost around $2000.

We’ve gotten puppies from the pet store before, and while they were amazing dogs, we’re better informed now and wouldn’t want to support pet store puppy trade.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Sitz&Platz said:


> We’ve been looking for a new puppy and in the NoVa region, most WGSL puppies start at $3,500. Pet store GSD pups cost around $2000.
> 
> We’ve gotten puppies from the pet store before, and while they were amazing dogs, we’re better informed now and wouldn’t want to support pet store puppy trade.


Your prices for this area are correct for showlines. Working lines are usually about 1000$ less.


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