# Help!



## jahnke6 (Oct 21, 2014)

Hello all-
I am looking for some advice on finding the right German Shepherd. I have grown up around German Shepherds, my family has owned 2 in the past 3 decades, but I have never raised one myself. So, I am going to be a brand new dog owner, and frankly I am clueless when it comes to the right breeder, where to look, etc. A little about my lifestyle, I am 23, and am pretty active myself. I am looking for more of a working German Shepard, as I feel that I would be able to keep up with maintaining the lifestyle of a working dog. I am not looking to train my dog for sole protection, or police K-9 status. I like the idea of training my dog for agility competitions, just for a little fun and bonding. I have a humungous backyard, plenty of room for a dog to run around. My sister and brother in-law also have a dog (who gets along with any other dog she meets) which means he/she would have a four-legged buddy to play with. I've done quite a lot of research regarding the needs of a working German Shepherd, and have an idea of how much work they are, and I am ready. So, ultimately it comes down to a few questions I have -

Where do I find a credible breeder?? (I've found so many, but lots have mixed reviews)

I've found breeders with a billion different kinds of credentials, which one's tend to prove they are legitimate??

When I find a breeder I like, what are the next steps??

Where do I find credible puppy training?


----------



## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Hi,
I am also a 1st time owner myself. U are in the right place. You may please have a look at some the threads such as " Show line gsd with working ability" or "price of a pup" or "Value of Schutzhund title in the pedigree" . I learnt a lot during those discussions.

I think u may 1st like to decide whether you want to do well in conformation/seiger type shows or u want to go for sports like IPO or Schh. In my case I am happy with a companion dog with high energy level (I do not have much options also). I feel u guys have so many quality options in US and Europe. I wish I was there.

Anyways, hope u enjoy this form.

All the best
SANTANU


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

you need a dog from a back yard breeder. there are 1000 on puppy find. make sure they don't have more than a couple litters at the same time 'cause that makes them a puppy mill. what you are looking for doesn't require a year wait on a list from a kennel that sounds like it came out of a german speaking see and say and charges muliple thousands of dollars. don't get from a pet store. 

i wouldn't reccomend my breeder now 'cause now she always has like 5 litters at a time.

i got both my dogs for a little under a thousand bucks from a breeder found on puppyfind. reviews were good. parents were AKC registered, it was up to me to finish filling out the paperwork on them, paying money and sending in to register them. that was a waste to me.

both my GSDs are half working half showlines. i was lookingfor the same as you and they worked out great. do what you want, just giving you my experience withlooking for GSDs.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where are you located?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jahnke, what is your general area so people can recommend breeders? 

scarfish, there are people who luck out doing things the way you did. Not what most of us recommend, though.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lhczth said:


> jahnke, what is your general area so people can recommend breeders?
> 
> scarfish, there are people who luck out doing things the way you did. Not what most of us recommend, though.


Yep... for every story of someone who got a "great dog" this way, there's at least a handful of people who ended up with dogs with major health and/or temperament issues (my dog is one of those).


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

lhczth said:


> scarfish, there are people who luck out doing things the way you did. Not what most of us recommend, though.


that's only because some of you dog people are a little crazy.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

scarfish said:


> that's only because some of you dog people are a little crazy.


Especially breeders.......

Of course this is a sweeping generalization.


SuperG


----------



## jahnke6 (Oct 21, 2014)

Whoops! I am from Minnesota. Twin Cities area. Thank you for the suggestions! I will take a look at puppyfind, and get back to you all.


----------



## diarmuid957 (Nov 28, 2013)

I would not seek out a BB. That is a crapshoot. You can find a solid working or show line pup for $1500+. Perseverance is the name of the game. It matters in terms of long-term health and temperament.

As for training--regardless of what discipline you choose to pursue, you will need solid engagement training. Check out the Michael Ellis DVDs and watch them. Preferably before puppy comes along. This will give you an idea about the kind of training needed to have meaningful, productive relationship with your working dog. Plus ME's work is truly awesome. 

Good luck! :-D


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

jahnke6 said:


> Whoops! I am from Minnesota. Twin Cities area. Thank you for the suggestions! I will take a look at puppyfind, and get back to you all.


Please don't look on puppyfind. Seriously. BYB's are NOT the way to go, and there's about a thousand threads explaining why. Like I said... for every person who has a dog that's fine from a BYB (and there's quite a sliding definition on what "fine" is), there's many people who have dogs from BYB's who are wrecks. 

Health testing is important at a bare, bare minimum. Some sort of impartial third party evaluation of temperament (traditionally through working titles in this breed, but there are other means to this end) is important. Anybody who sells dogs on a classifieds site is not someone I would trust- I want a breeder who is going to take the time to get to know me to ensure whatever dog I get will be a good match for my household and lifestyle.

If one wants to call supporting ethical breeders and stacking the deck in your favor "crazy", they can go ahead :shrug:


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

that's what makes you GSD people crazy. absolute lunitics. both my dogs are perfectly fine, health and temperment wise. both from a breeder found on puppyfind. sure there are duds on there but that is why you have to research further. to say you can't 100% find a good GSD on puppyfind is retarded. maybe you're right. i'm just goint to beat my dogs and drop them off at a kill shelter now.


----------



## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Scar, calm down...


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

scarfish said:


> that's what makes you GSD people crazy. absolute lunitics. both my dogs are perfectly fine, health and temperment wise. both from a breeder found on puppyfind. sure there are duds on there but that is why you have to research further. to say you can't 100% find a good GSD on puppyfind is retarded. maybe you're right. i'm just goint to beat my dogs and drop them off at a kill shelter now.


Why, exactly, are you on a GSD forum then? Pot, meet kettle... chill out. 

Again, I said it is possible to get a good dog from a BYB. But it's simply not the smartest way to go. It's still a crapshoot (I know all dogs are crapshoots, but it's a much bigger one). 

OP, whichever way you choose to go... at least make sure the breeder does the minimum health testing (including hips/elbows).


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

We have had GSD's for 50 years, mostly from BYB's, and just pets. We have been lucky with most of them, but have had our share of health issues as well. All, fortunately, have had very good temperaments and we were very happy with them all.

I stumbled onto our lastest on Craigslist. When I did some digging, I found out that he came from very good breeding, born of an imported female.

I can't even put into words how special this dog is to us. Maybe it's just his individual personality, but I would never go back to a backyard breeder. It's obvious that he's a much better "quality" dog than the ones we have had in the past, but he's also a great pet. I don't mean that the others weren't, but this pup is just different. 

I'm sure if we wanted to do more with him, he would be very capable of going any direction, at least at some level. I know that whatever he does, he will give it his all. 

This will probably be our last pup. But if we were going to add another, it would be from a reputable breeder that knows what they are breeding. 

In my humble opinion, knowing what I now know, they are well worth the price, whatever travel it would involve, and any waiting time required. There is just no comparison.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

scarfish said:


> that's what makes you GSD people crazy. absolute lunitics. both my dogs are perfectly fine, health and temperment wise. both from a breeder found on puppyfind. sure there are duds on there but that is why you have to research further. to say you can't 100% find a good GSD on puppyfind is retarded. .


I have to somewhat agree with scarfish, due to my own personal experiences. Unfortunately, the first 2 GSDs I had, both ended up with short life spans...one lived 6 years the second 8 years...cancer, EPI and DM plagued them and it sucked. Both dogs came from a very reputable breeder with all the wonderful pedigrees, championships and all that...the dogs were both magnificent and best of companions but their health was obviously very suspect. I know...why get another from the same breeder after the first only made it 6 years??? I will say, the breeder stepped up to the plate and felt so bad that the breeder offered my second dog for free but I still paid the breeder at least 1/2 the normal price because I thought it was just fair. Anyway, I'm on my third GSD and decided to go elsewhere.....so far so good.

I guess the point to my "story" is...the majority of GSD owners will never enter some sort of competition with their GSDs much less breed them....but yet they get all caught up in the pedigrees, aesthetics and all the other "gobbledegook" which shapes their rationale for purchasing a particular GSD...I myself am guilty of this to a degree. HOWEVER...at the end of the day, HEALTH should be the number one concern for the average GSD owner's criteria....or at least it is for me after having to say goodbye to 2 best of friends way too early. 

The reason I agree with scarfish is because of the premium scarfish put on HEALTH.."both my dogs are perfectly fine, health and temperment wise." I understand there are no guarantees regarding healthful longevity but it is easy for me to state that just because one buys a pup from champion lines by no means ensures longevity.....so at the end of the day..it's still a crap shoot to a certain degree.

Are one's odds better in this regard buying a "puppyfind" GSD vs. a champion pedigreed pup ? I do not know the answer....I just know what I experienced and it may have been an anomaly but it is the reality which I experienced.

SuperG


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think for those that have low standards (I'm not saying BAD standards, just very vague/general things like "healthy" or "nice temperament"), there's a higher probability a BYB or mill dog will make that person happy because there's a very high probability that handing that person ANY healthy, mildly tempered GSD will make them happy. Us "crazy" ones are looking for something rather specific when it comes to the nuances of temperament and nerve, conformation, pedigree, etc. Most GSDs I've met have been fine dogs...that you couldn't pay me to own. When people come here asking for advice on where to get a dog, it's more about teasing out who the OP is and what they are looking for (or don't care about) than us reciting a list of acceptable breeders. I don't just recommend the same 10 breeders over and over for everyone, it depends on what they want, why, what is their experience level, etc.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Are one's odds better in this regard buying a "puppyfind" GSD vs. a champion pedigreed pup ? I do not know the answer....I just know what I experienced and it may have been an anomaly but it is the reality which I experienced.
> 
> SuperG


If we're talking about the bare minimum of a healthy dog... it's not about the champion pedigree, it's about the fact that breeders listing their dogs on puppyfind are a lot less likely to do any sort of health testing. It's not about the pedigree, it's about finding a breeder who puts enough care into what they're doing to ensure that the dogs they are breeding meet certain health standards, etc... that they're not just throwing two dogs together because they're sweet dogs that are AKC registered. I also want someone who knows the breed- knows potential health issues, etc. The number of weak-nerved dogs that are bred by Joe Shmoe because he thinks reactive behavior is actually "excellent protective instinct" is enough to make me want to look for someone who knows the breed well. Sure, you might be able to find that on puppyfind, but probably not.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My last GSD lived to be 14.5 years old. I purchased him from a backyard breeder for 50.00. No papers, but purebred.

My new pup probably from what some of you would call a BYB. She has owned and bred GSD's for 33 years. She owns one male and two females which produce 1 litter each per year. 

For me, it was very important that I was able to meet both parents of the litter. I would not buy a pup from a litter that I could not see both parents, so that eliminates out of area breeders, etc. 

Both Sire and Dam were fit and trim, healthy eyes, nose and coat. Both displayed appropriate behavior at having visitors. No aggressive or nervous behavior. I was amazed to see the Sire's gentle but firm behavior when correcting my pup for being too excited and nippy. 

My pup is AKC but that was not my consideration. When the owner learned that I have had GSD's for 30 years also, she released breeding rights to me. I would not consider breeding my female without consulting her and only if my pup turns out to be outstanding in breed representation, health and temperament. Any breeding can go wrong. I could never trust anyone who sells animals for a living that I cannot possibly know is telling me the truth. Seeing the parents is the best shot I have of getting a healthy pup.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jahnke6 said:


> Whoops! I am from Minnesota. Twin Cities area. Thank you for the suggestions! I will take a look at puppyfind, and get back to you all.


If you want a working line then I would seriously look at 
staatsmacht

And do not let the term "working line" deter you. A well bred one with an off switch fits just as nicely in a home as any other.


----------



## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Does anybody have any experience with Kavallerie shepherds? I personally don't have ANY experience with them, so please don't take this as a first hand suggestion. We found out about them after we got our pup, but I really like their dogs, and they seem to have good titles and health certificates on their dogs. Has anyone gotten a dog from this working line breeder? http://www.vtgsd.com/


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I think for those that have low standards (I'm not saying BAD standards, just very vague/general things like "healthy" or "nice temperament"), there's a higher probability a BYB or mill dog will make that person happy because there's a very high probability that handing that person ANY healthy, mildly tempered GSD will make them happy. Us "crazy" ones are looking for something rather specific when it comes to the nuances of temperament and nerve, conformation, pedigree, etc. Most GSDs I've met have been fine dogs...that you couldn't pay me to own. When people come here asking for advice on where to get a dog, it's more about teasing out who the OP is and what they are looking for (or don't care about) than us reciting a list of acceptable breeders. I don't just recommend the same 10 breeders over and over for everyone, it depends on what they want, why, what is their experience level, etc.


And some of us learn from our mistakes. I found the dog of a lifetime with an absolute slug of a human. I was blessed to have her in my life. She had moderate drives, was intelligent, trainable, brave, loyal and loving. She learned everything I could teach her and handled upsets with grace and humor. She hit like a train and bit like an alligator. Am I crazy enough to tempt fate twice? No way. My next pup will come from a good breeder. 
To say that great dogs can come from BYB's is the truth, to say it's the place to look for them is just silly.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I think for those that have low standards (I'm not saying BAD standards, just very vague/general things like "healthy" or "nice temperament"),


I politely have to disagree with that comment.

Health most certainly is not a "low standard".

Health, I would assume is on the top of most everyone's list.

Yes, I understand there are breeders/owners who prefer certain other attributes over health but what good is a "world class" GSD if it spins off DM or EPI pups...or other genetic health problems? Oh well, I suppose one can have their champion and then get to say goodbye to them after too few years. I suppose there is a different mentality amongst many breeders and owners when it comes to the pursuit of the "perfect" GSD and unfortunately, healthiness at times get pushed down the priority list. 

SuperG


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think for those that have low standards (I'm not saying BAD standards, just very vague/general things like "healthy" or "nice temperament"), *there's a higher probability a BYB or mill dog will make that person happy because there's a very high probability that handing that person ANY healthy, mildly tempered GSD will make them happy*. Us "crazy" ones are looking for something rather specific when it comes to the nuances of temperament and nerve, conformation, pedigree, etc.


I do agree with this. Lies isn't saying health is not a high standard. She said most people aren't looking for IPO level dogs. If I hadn't wanted to do sport then I would have adopted from a shelter like I did Jax. I'm perfectly happy with her as a dog and as my pet, but not a sport dog. There is a difference in what people are looking for and what will make people happy.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Right, I'm saying that saying "health" as a requirement is a very vague or low standard. When I am looking for a new dog, I look at the pedigree, ZW scores, check OFA database, etc when evaluating health. I also know a good deal about health problems coming from certain lines or dogs. Anyone that is willing to buy from a puppy mill must not have the same priority because you don't get any of that information. No one is going to say "health is a low priority for me." I guess how we get the information about health and make the decision is what is different. I have a very "high standard" as far as that information goes. No pet store or broker web site selling puppy mill dogs will ever be able to answer the questions I ask when evaluating the probable health of a puppy.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I just don't see supporting people that I don't agree with either how they raise their pups or treat the mothers (puppy mill) or someone that just wants to make money and has no clue how their pups will turn out AT ALL because they have no idea what their lines produce (BYB) and don't health test (either). 

I don't mind taking a risk by getting a rescue dog ... but paying someone to use their pet as a money making machine or, even worse, like a commodity where they aren't even treated like thinking, feeling animals .. ? Um no thanks.


----------

