# PLenty of red flags but awesome dogs



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

So yesterday I visited a non-GSD breeder (no breed mentioning due to confidentiality) somewhere in the US.
I'll start from the very beginning.
Several ads on the internet, a very messy, cluttered front and back yard. Inside: very welcoming people, about 5 females and the stud dog, the place in a moderate state of hoarding, no barking or fighting , despite unaltered females and litters, strong dog smell, two litters (one born day before), very social, sweet dogs, great looking dogs with awesome temperament. 
Dogs and pups are fed a cheap grocery store food, bred back to back for about 4 times before being retired as breeding dogs, no contract, pups sold under 7 weeks but happy to keep the pup a few more weeks. They all live and are raised inside.
They raise champions,the dogs and pups are well socialized, well built and healthy and the breeders honest about their philosophy and trustworthy.
This is really confusing and it made me realize that keeping an open mind increases your options. Your take on this?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Do they do health testing? How old are the females when they have their first litter(s)? You can have conformationally great dogs that are prone to disease. I would want that ruled out from the onset by having dogs that are cleared of the common for their breed diseases.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Galathiel said:


> Do they do health testing? How old are the females when they have their first litter(s)? You can have conformationally great dogs that are prone to disease. I would want that ruled out from the onset by having dogs that are cleared of the common for their breed diseases.


Minimal health testing on the stud only, dogs are bred early; not sure on which heat.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What makes the dogs "awesome"?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Health testing is the big one for me, but how do they raise champions? How many champions do they have in their lines? Do they show consistently? It's just interesting that for someone that shows, probably pays 1000s in entry/handler fees to get a champion, doesn't health test.

I could really care less what the facility looks like, what the dogs are fed...they don't pass on those traits to the puppies. There's a reason why the grocery store foods are still on the market, most people still use them.

The weird thing with other breeds is that many of them don't have a temperament test/requirement. There is a temperament standard, but not really the Schutzhund type test to prove it. Germany has the SchH1 requirement to breed, and its poured over to the United States as people want to live up to the "founder's standard." With other breeds...especially what are commonly referred to as companion breeds, its too much of an expectation to expect people to go way out of their way to test temperament in ways that their customers don't even care about.

And yeah...the awesome part. The worst place to gauge a dog is in their home environment...its where they're comfortable, and they have been "trained" in a way to act in a certain matter. If the breeder thought his dogs weren't going to impress you, probably wouldn't invite you over, or lock up the problem dogs. Its the same with GSDs...you can come to my house and think mine is awesome, but the true test is when he's out and about in a higher stress situation. No breeder will invite you over if they have a crazy/aggressive GSD...unless they're trying to impress you with their "guarding skills."


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Andaka said:


> What makes the dogs "awesome"?


Their temperament, sociability, being able to get along despite intact animals with litters, their conformation, coat condition.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on the breed, IMO. Each breed I'm interested in has it's own health concerns. In general, no I do not write someone off immediately because their home is not spotless or they are not feeding $60/bag dog food.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

And.....if I had "found" a dog like these in the shelter I would have never been picky and taken him/her home in a heart beat.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> They raise champions,the dogs and pups are well socialized, well built and *healthy* and the breeders honest about their philosophy and trustworthy.


You can't claim they are healthy without seeing vet examination records and having the dogs health tested. A dog with cancer can_ look_ healthy.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> And.....if I had "found" a dog like these in the shelter I would have never been picky and taken him/her home in a heart beat.


I'm not sure where you're going with this statement but most "byb" breeders that I have met are a lot like the one you describe. They have perfectly well behaved dogs, they look good, they take care of them, they live with them, they are truly well taken care of pets. That's the kind of place I bought my dog from. The difference with the shelter and these people is that any money you give to a shelter will go towards helping another dog find a home or get some vet care. When you give money to people like this, instead of investing it in their dogs, they probably buy something nice for themselves or they're supporting themselves on their puppies. I'll add though that my boy's breeders do care about their dogs and have a contract, a right of first refusal, and will take any dog back that has to be rehomed.

I'm not sure about the breed or what the "going rate" would be for those dogs, but if you have two litters on the ground at the same time, its a pretty nice paycheck at the end of 8 weeks when all of them are sold. Rarely are these types of situations for the "love" of the breed. It's not hard to plan to have litters at different times, especially if you have 5 breeding bitches.

Anyways...can you answer how their dogs are champions? And how many they have produced? Or was that just something written on the web page without any actual backing behind it?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

IMO Health testing is a basic requirement, responsible breeders should be ensuring that the dogs they're producing are of the best quality possible regardless of breed. Raising them in questionable conditions with basic to no health testing, sending them away before 8 weeks, those are not signs that they even care about what they're producing

I don't care if they are "champions" there is no way I would purchase a puppy from them. It's one thing to get a dog from a shelter, it's another thing to actively hand money to someone whose breeding ethics I disagree with. To call them "trustworthy" on top of that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, they have no idea what they're really producing, they could be breeding a multitude of issues and not realizing it.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am thinking that any breeder could potentially be breeding a mulitude of health problems unless they are doing repeat breeding-I don't know this thread is in the chat section and my response is on any given day I would not want some one coming into my house making comments on my housekeeping-luckily I am not a breeder


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Champions of what?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sunflowers said:


> Champions of what?


Exactly what I was thinking. 

And this place sounds pretty disgusting and I'm not even talking about their breeding practices. Personally, I'd never buy from people living and breeding like this. There are plenty of good dogs out there... my money would not go to support this kind of operation.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I checked their vet references and he was impressed with their dogs and how they have always followed up his advice. This vet has a good reputation and I know his clinic well. Regarding "champions", this is conformation only.
This is the last I will post on this subject. Don't mean to get into a "strong" discussion about it and go BYB full circle. Just wanted to share this experience.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

re comment: not hard to have litters at different times when you have 5 females....

au contraire!!! Females cycle together....they bring each other into heat....if you have 5 females and want them each to have a litter every year, you are going to breed at least two at the same time. I have a several young females - all with partners at this time - some temporarily some permanently - and they still come in pretty much at the same time....

no comment on the rest as it is hard to make any judgement when so little is known....health testing is a breed by breed thing....for all we know - these are min pins or something

Lee


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I would be very concerned about the litter that was born only the day before and people coming in to the house?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree there is nothing wrong with two litters at the same time. I don't like the idea of bitches with puppies forced to live with loose dogs running around. I would expect a good dam to be a little protective of her puppies and warning other dogs away.

Breeding four times back to back, then spay and to a new home, as a retired breeder, would be ok only so long as the bitches are in top condition throughout that. Four litters in 2 years is a lot. But just because you breed them four times does not mean that you have a litter each time. So, I don't know about that. 

Near-hoarding conditions, ok, they're slobs? Or are you talking about fecies and urine on the floors? I am ok with dirty dishes in the sink and some clutter, and some dirty laundry, but I draw the line on animal waste hanging around in the house. Puppies can be smelly though, it is amazing how much waste 7 little monsters can produce is 8-10 hours, and yes that can smell. But there is a real difference between having a whelping area with pups, and having waste on the floors and such. 

To produce champions you have to have a dog that shows well, you need a great coat, healthy eyes, ears, teeth, etc. I don't know if you can get there buying the cheapest junk in the grocery store. A lot of breeders do feed purina, but then the supplement or the breed the high end purina. 

I have fed a number of things and have found that the best thing to do is to feed a decent food that is available locally and does not cost an arm and a leg. Puppy buyers are not all going to run out and by 60-100 dollar bags of dog food. But they will listen if you have a good food that is a decent price and seems to do well with your dogs, and you can tell them why you use it. I guess I would have to know what the cheap, grocery store brand was, and maybe ask the people why they use it before totally making it a complete stop sign. 

Some dog breeds are better as pack animals than others. I think the situation that you described was a bit chaotic. You were there, you could make a decision on them or not. If they are hoarding though, I wouldn't want to encourage it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think there is anything wrong with having two litters at a time, just that in this case it sounds like a breed-for-profit rather than having two females come into heat and having a great male available for stud.

I think the worst sign is using just the one male...its tough to continue a breeding program that way. After one generation every dog ends up being related and you might love that male but you can't breed him to his daughters.

OP, why post this? You had to expect a discussion of the questionable practices. Sometimes I don't understand the questions asked on this forum and then the OP getting all upset.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, here I am again. I am not upset at all. (the result of not hearing voice or seeing body language on the forum)I found that the thread had already ran its course. Thanks all for pitching in. I am not defending or attacking her practices; I was surprised with what I found, that's all.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think you were surprised by the fact that the dogs seemed okay to you, despite the conditions that were obviously not optimal. And that you might have considered actually getting a dog from there. 

The problem with this is that it perpetuates the scenario and this type of thing will never stop if people don't boycott places such as this one.

There is more to good breeding than just producing friendly dogs. And being a member of the forum, it is easy to educate yourself and learn about everything that goes into intelligent breeding with the scope of bettering the breed, no matter the breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

busy stud dog....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know many people like this, their animals are their pets, they do show, but they also health check. There are also plenty out there that don't health check and just breed their perfectly friendly pets.

I think the big difference/shock that you get is that on the forum and when it comes to GSD, many people expect Schutzhund titles...but most American bred shepherds don't do any performance type events or trialing. The majority of American dogs are bred for the AKC conformation ring, with an aim for stable/pet type temperaments. I've spoken to many breeders who don't want to breed "German temperaments" because they have too much drive for their customers.

I wouldn't support one of those breeders with my money, but plenty of people do. They sound a lot like the people you're talking about...just cleaner and possibly a bit more responsible when it comes to their animals. The fact of the matter is that BYB doesn't mean that you're necessarily bad, it just means you don't have the knowledge to do things the way the standard would like.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

As these aren't GSD's none of the working temperament comes into play...so clearly these dogs are being bred $oley for the pet market?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Not necessarily. Other breeds have genetic illnesses that, if not held in check, can be quite a disaster to the breed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah...when it comes to other breeds, especially those companion breeds, its not a necessity to be temperament tested so IMO the breeders have a little more freedom. A lot of breeders focus solely on AKC conformation, which isn't the worst thing, and at least they are comparing their dogs to others of the same breed.

I guess to me their living conditions aren't the most important things to look at when judging the actual dogs. As long as the dogs aren't kept in cages all day long, get some attention, who am I to judge the way they wish to live?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We don't know the breed, so it could be hunting dogs, or herding dogs, or a guardian-type dogs, etc. 

Not all breeders think that schutzhund is the the only way to test a dog. I know people with American bred dogs that are herding champions. I think it isn't necessarily accurate to put blanket statements on lines of dogs.


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

My neighbor is a byb, and doesn't have a messy house or property, but....
I wouldn't get a dog from her.

Her female is a very friendly dog, and she seems to sell all her pups. She is actually quite knowledgable about the breed just chooses to go about it in a manner that doesn't work for me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would probably be rather surprised at this scenerio myself..and honestly, I probably wouldn't buy a dog from them unless it was one I 'had' to have.

I realize some people with multiple dogs may not have pristine living conditions, heck I have only 3 dogs and I'm cleaning alot, BUT, for me, it wouldn't matter if they had excellent temperaments, champions running around, if I walked into that scenerio, I probably would pass .

If one is willing to have that many dogs running around inside, then one should be willing to keep the living conditions atleast somewhat clean, especially if people are coming to visit !


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Just curious, what breed is it?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I need to keep this confidential; toys


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

There are so many toy breeds lol


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Who the heck is going to put it together who you are talking about, just by naming the breed? I don't care who the breeder is, it could be one of millions that do things the same way.

I'm curious simply because some breeds are "easier" than others, in terms of maintaining good health and temperament. With the "easy" ones, you can be a less-than-stellar breeder and still produce dogs of reasonably good health and temperament if you have a good gene pool to start with. With some other breeds, you really have to be careful, and anything less than a deeply knowledgable and diligent breeding program will result in a hot mess.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Where I vacation every summer there is a family that used to have a female GSD (she is long passed due to age). This is THE dog that drew me to this breed. She was intact and they bred her a few times. They would give the puppies away but kept one for themselves so the last I saw they were on their third or fourth generation. I'm sure they have no health clearances or titles but just based on my experience with these dogs I would have taken one for free at any time.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

With toy breeds they are most often companions (except maybe the terriers) so there is no historical "job" for them to be titled or worked in.
I've looked into a few and have found with some breeds the vast majority of breeders do not do any titling other than conformation. So in some breeds it can be very difficult to find a breeder who titles their dogs in sports or obedience for example. 
One toy breed I was interested in I found very few breeders who do any titles with their dogs other than conformation. I was hoping to find some with agility or other titles but IIRC I only found one breeder who did agility titling. A lot of breeders mentioned on their site that the breed does great in agility/obedience-- but they themselves don't title their dogs in those things.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Toy breeds are EXTREMELY prone to diseases that often times don't show clinical signs until geriatric years. Many have heart disease. Best example, MVD that affects half of all Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Or Syringomyelia (brain too large for skull, basically), where in it's mildest forms shows no clinical signs but in it's moderate to severe forms causes excruciating pain and paralysis. Can easily be diagnosed with an MRI, as ALL breeders of these dogs should do. The big scandal in the UK where it was reported that one of the top conformation studs had a mild case of this GENETIC disease, but wasn't clinical and was being bred left and right. Oh but he looked so good in the ring :headbang:

Strong smell in the house means dirty living conditions. UNHEALTHY for animals and humans alike, especially newborn pups.

I don't care how happy or friendly or "pretty" these dogs are, I don't care what breed they are. If they're being kept in dirty living conditions it's irresponsible. You can wash a dog in a good quality oatmeal shampoo on show day and hide a lot of neglect. If they aren't being tested for common genetic diseases in their breed it is IRRESPONSIBLE. And they should NOT be bred. You could produce hundreds of puppies out of a stud dog before you realize he has severe heart disease at 6-7 years of age. Difference between this and a shelter dog, you aren't supporting bad practices with shelter dogs.


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