# How do you get a dog to heel like that?



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

With his head pointing straight up (almost backward!) instead of 45 degree up that I see with most dogs heeling? Is this a malinois thing?









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAr1Lo2b7cw&feature=youtube_gdata


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

looks like a Lipizaner(sp) stalion! LOL I was amazed at the spin when she turned.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Food lure in the left hand. Then once the dog habitually holds his head in that position, the food and hand are faded out.

There's actually a video online, I think done by Mohnweise kennel but I could be mistaken on that, that shows many steps of teaching that style of heeling this way, starting with very young pups.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Chris, 

So you want to hold the food directly right above the dog's head and then just drill that position into his muscle memory?

Question: once you fade out the hand, what is the dog looking at? Where does his gaze go? From that extreme upright head position, is the dog still looking at the handler's face? I can't imagine he can catch a good glimpse from that angle. Or do you teach it to look at somewhere in front of the face?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It makes for a nice collected gait which makes the front light and encourages prancing, like the Lippizaner Stallions that Betsy mentioned. 

Personally, I don't like the look of it, the dog seems robotic. I think (just my musings - don't have anything to base this on), it helps to counteract the tendency for dogs to crowd the handler that is often seen in the eye-contact training type heel. Granted, I have very little experience, but haven't had any issues teaching my dogs the eye-contact heeling without the crowding (Gryff is still a work in progress - but he is getting it - I just never allow any crowding or forging, and reward quickly the right position). 

I'm wondering if this head-up heeling is a fad? Or weather it will be the new standard upon which all correct heeling will be based?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Jason,

Sorry, but I could only guess at the answers to your questions, so I won't even try. I do not teach heeling this way. I just happen to know the general method through which it is done. I'll see if I can find the video online tomorrow and that may answer your questions. 

Personally, I don't like this style of heeling. I find it stylized to the point of not only being exceedingly impractical, but robotic. Yeah, I know it's the new hot thing to do at competition level, and while the dog's movement is nice and on the surface it certainly appears as if dog and handler are working in harmony, to me there is no two-way communication or connection between dog and handler in that sort of heeling... only a dog going through the paces he was taught. I want my dog either looking at me, or keeping watch of his surroundings, depending on the situation. But I don't ever want him just staring off into space.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Deliver the reward directly over the dog's head in the "heeling lane" after you have spent the foundation time creating the behavior.
That particular dog is more forged than I would desire.

Look at Lary, pretty dogger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIjMhZQa3Y

I don't mind heads up, stylized heeling but I am a heeling nut. I have never gotten one to be this extreme though!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

It is Mohnwiese. Click on training on the left in the menu, select English and then free heeling.

http://www.grammozis.de/

I also think though that a certain amount has to do with conformation. Some dogs naturally likes to heel head up. Some dogs seem to prefer to turn their head in. Some dogs are more able to drop their butt to lift the front legs, others seem more like trotting horses....

Claudia Romard featured free heeling as well, but her dog does turn his head in. This video of Clip shows some gorgeous heeling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jURaEkImDWc


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Quite impressive for show...but...personally, I think it's completely impractical and a little stupid. My dog keeps her head aligned with her body, perhaps a little lower than most folks, but not with her nose to the ground. She is very perceptive of my movements using her peripheral vision. We try to keep things practical.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yeah, its for show. My dogs have other commands for different positions regarding how close to me and how attentive I expect them to be in various situations.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I personally do not like this either.

As Chris mentioned, there is no connection between dog and handler. I want my dog (especially in obedience) to be looking at me, looking for my next cue or command.

It looks "pretty" but I don't think it is very practical.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> This video of Clip shows some gorgeous heeling.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jURaEkImDWc


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My dog who is heads up heeling is very very much connected to me in heeling. It does not preclude focus and connection at all.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyIt is Mohnwiese. Click on training on the left in the menu, select English and then free heeling.
> 
> http://www.grammozis.de/
> 
> I also think though that a certain amount has to do with conformation. Some dogs naturally likes to heel head up. Some dogs seem to prefer to turn their head in. Some dogs are more able to drop their butt to lift the front legs, others seem more like trotting horses....


Thanks Chris and JKlatsky for the reference. The Mohnwiese article on free heeling and the videos he attached are really interesting.

As a follow up question: do you guys prefer to teach heeling by teaching true attention heeling right from the start or do you like to use some sort of targeting/luring to get the pup to heel with his head up and then later fade out the target?


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

I LOVE heads up heeling! Of course it is for showing purposes I don't expect my dogs to do a potty or exercise walk like this lol I do use it or ask for it in crowds though! 

These are OLD but all three of these are my dogs in various stages of learning heads up heeling taught by luring (forgive the quality please):

Malfoy: About 2 years old? From the pound. Had had him about 3 months and just played with training with him lol Off of food directly in front of nose: Malfoy 

Jinx: About 11 months old just starting to take away food Jinx 

Moxie: about 11 weeks old
Moxie 

I have to say about all of them, I have since changed method slightly. I used to walk too fast in the beginning and have slowed down and get the exagerated strut with head up and collecting of the rear more with newest training partner Hella. Gotta get video of her too!









Those that dont like the heads up heeling, I thik my old guy, Axel, did more level headed heeling. As much as I tried to get his head higher, he really never did get it as high as I wanted. I attribute that to his structure rather than training. 

Axel 

So I think no matter how high you want your dogs head to go (or how low) much is determined by the dogs structure and comfort when heeling.

Of course it is all stylized! But I dont see robots. I see dogs happily working with their handler! I remember when the norm was seeing dogs plodding along in correct position but no joy in their step or smile on their faces. 

If this heads up is a fad.. I hope it doesn't end! I dont want to go back to seeing the dogs that plod around the ring with their person.

(edited to fix links... new to this picture/linkage stuff lol)


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Myself, I teach heeling and attention seperately at first.

I lure to build in the reinforcement of position and build muscle memory of how to walk there next to me (head up!). I am also able to get correct position with luring.

I teach attention seperately mainly because I start pups out as soon as I get them and when babies, the attention span is not long enough for sustained attention while heeling. I dont want a puppy to start off thinking I am boring lol

I am luring new gal Hella now. I am melding in some attention and clicker/marker work also. Wish I had recent video of the dogs posted a min ago... though I stopped working Malfoy. After watching/digging up that video again.. I am wondering.. WHY!? lol


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are different ways to teach this. I lure at first. Then gradually fade the lure up my body to my shoulder. I then start getting the dog to focus on focal point.... face or shoulder, your choice. I mark and reward the looking and when it is good, put it on cue. Heel position is taught kinda seperately as there are two components here...position and also focus on desired spot. 

Linda Koutsky gets her dogs to heads up heel by utilizing opposition reflex. Pressing down gently on bridge of nose, as soon as dog offers some resistance.....mark and reward. The dog is soon pushing straight up. You can then put this position on cue. Linda has perfect 200 scores and obed champion. She learned this from Sylvia Bishop, multiple Crufts obed champion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS98mMuo0I


As far as the somewhat absurdness of the first dog... I think it is a bit of a malinois thing. Certainly not all dogs can get their neck straight up either.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...I want my dog either looking at me, or keeping watch of his surroundings, depending on the situation. But I don't ever want him just staring off into space.


Chris,

I was working with someone who was big on this and I didn't like it. I want Zeus to be aware of my movement but also of his surroundings. It's seem completely out of whack for a dog to stare at me as we walk around.

How do you train your dogs? I know this might be a very simple question to a very detailed and intricate process, but I'd appreciate any help as I am trying to get Zeus trained to "look" without getting him dependent on treats again.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinWith his head pointing straight up (almost backward!) instead of 45 degree up that I see with most dogs heeling? Is this a malinois thing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could watch Marina and Simba all day, that is obedience to strive for. Heeling like that is dependant on the dog's conformation. I have a Malinois here right now that naturally heels with her head straight up, and I didn't teach the heel with a lure. There is no way my GSD could do it.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DorianGrayFFMChris,
> 
> I was working with someone who was big on this and I didn't like it. I want Zeus to be aware of my movement but also of his surroundings. It's seem completely out of whack for a dog to stare at me as we walk around.


Was he teaching you competition heeling? Because in competition heeling, the dog HAS to look at the handler as they walk - They don't have to crank their neck like the malinois in the video but they have to 
look at the handler.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DorianGrayFFMChris,
> ...


Yes, he is an active ScH competitor.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ah, there isn't much 'practical' use to this kind of heeling - I mean you are not going to "heel" your dog around the neighborhood like that. But it does come in handy in certain situations. And it's always good to know you can get eye to eye focus from your dog when you ask for it. 

Although if I have a dog like Simba I would love to take the dog to petsmart and freak everyone out with the some fancy heeling up and down the isles


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I also teach focus and position separate. Heeling is a very complicated exercise with many different components, and those components are best taught separately and then strung together once the dog is proficient in each. So I would initially teach position through luring, and then add in the focus later once the dog is solid on position, and solid on focus outside of heeling.



> Originally Posted By: DorianGrayFFM
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...I want my dog either looking at me, or keeping watch of his surroundings, depending on the situation. But I don't ever want him just staring off into space.
> ...


I teach both. A focused, correctly positioned heel is required for competition. The dog cannot be looking around in competition.

For every day heeling or loose leash walking, they can look around as much as they like so long as they are aware of me and my movements and more or less stay with me.

Two *completely* different things with different commands, different goals and different training methods.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Having the dog's head up straight is not required for competition. Having your dogs complete focus and attention is. A dog surveying the environment regarding what else might be of interest is not going to serve you well at all. As Chris mentioned, heeling is a complex behavior and it is also one that requires the development of the dog's ability to hold attention and focus for an entire routine. If your dog was not completly focused on you, it would be like having a dance partner who kept looking at other people and glancing over at the bar as you tried to do complex steps together. 

You can choose what area of your body you dog focuses on. One could choose their leg if they didn't like their dog looking at them. Personally, I think many of us enjoy that sense of connection with the dog looking at the face or faceward. I like face or shoulder focus because my first cues to the dog about a change are going to be given to my dog by my eye movements and my shoulder movements. The looking up is not just stylized, it is often used by competitors who want to win the competition so they build every "help" they can into the performance.

If you just want to walk down the street and have your dog maintain a fairly consistent place next to you.... as said before, a completely different thing. There are no points off there!

I have had dogs where this type of focus and control was very useful in real life situations that I needed to navigate the dog through.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Wow that looks really uncomfortable and excuse me for not being PC..not meaning to offend anyone, but also slightly retarded. And let's hope a big bug doesn't fly into the dog's mouth!







I love to see dogs looking at the owner when heeling but this is way over the top, I just cringe watching it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We worked with the pups and heads up heeling today. Hellacious is still in the early luring stages for the heads up, rear driving heeling. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sambasue#p/a/u/0/O09K0cyPUgE

She is not restrained but rather in a "choose to heel" kinda situation. She got a bit distracted by me with the camera as I got closer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sambasue#p/a/u/1/VEFQ3h9uiSc

I was going to video Hogan while Jess worked with him in heeling, but I was so astounded as he bounced off her shoulder and ripped the pocket off her shirt, spilling the treats and then grabbing them all off the floor. If his sister is named Hellacious, I should have called him "Outrageous". Maybe video next time....


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Great video of my Hella Gal! So fun to see it from anothers view rather than looking own and just seeing teeth and feet! lol

Ah yes We must video the Hogan-onster next time! Sure you mentioned the bouncing and ripping of the clothes from my body and the treat dash.. but you forgot to mention how GOOD he did! Long stride, head up eyes bright and absoluetly gorgeous heeling! What a fun fun boy!

I Love







these puppers!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes, next time a Hogan video please.

Hella looks great. She already has that nice GSD prance going! How old is she?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The pups are 8 months old. She didn't arrive here until she was around 4 or 5 months though.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Hella looks great. Love that she is always pushing for more work!! 

Puppy Ike and I are on step 2 of the Mohnwiese 4 steps program







Step 2 calls for me to hold my hand out like an idiot and walk around in circles like this ... We have yet to take this circus sideshow on the road yet. Just working at home right now. Maybe next week.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How do you get him not to jump up and bite the food out of your hand?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Sometime I have food in the hand. Other time a hand buzzer. He learned quickly not to test his luck ...









I do let him jump up and take the food like a hooligan. He just has to wait for my marker/his release to do it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Look! He is learning to walk with his head up! Go Ikester!!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I wouldn't congratulate him yet. His head is up but it's not malinois-up ...


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

WOW! My dog is horrible at heeling!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh my Ike boy is getting big!!!! And already some good imprinting for keeping position by you. 

Enjoyed those two videos too, Samba. It is such a pleasure to see puppies working with so much enthousiasm and energy!


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

F U G L Y!!! Sorry to those that like it....But ummmm NO.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, its not for everyday walking around. It is a bit affected because of the competition aspect. 

Maybe kinda ugly because its a mal? ( oh sorry Mals, I love you too!)

It looks prettier in a GSD to me, but not all GSDs gonna give you that.

Lary, AGAIN, cause I like him:


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Of course it's affected for competition. 

I've got to say, after training Cade with the free heeling method in conjunction with rear end awareness exercises the vast majority of problems I had with crowding/crabbing in my other dogs have been eliminated. Keeping the head straight keeps the body straight, and eventually his head will turn in more as I shift the location of the reward, but he will have a foundation for keeping his body straight to go back to. 

Of course there are many methods and styles, but I've found this to be pretty problem free for getting a nice picture for competition heeling.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lary rocks!!

On what JKlatsky was saying - I notice when you watch Lary heels you see he is pretty much pushing off with his back legs the whole time. It's all rear end work. The front legs and the upper half of the body are just there for the ride. I guess that's where the prancing comes from


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

that is really cool! I have no idea but I like it!


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Jason L said:


> Although if I have a dog like Simba I would love to take the dog to petsmart and freak everyone out with the some fancy heeling up and down the isles


Jason
It's wild to watch people, when I take my Daughter & Little Raven to petsmart.
I just park my dog at the small animal section, & people watch it's a blast!!
:happyboogie:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ahlamarana said:


> Heeling like that is dependent on the dog's conformation. I have a Malinois here right now that naturally heels with her head straight up, and I didn't teach the heel with a lure. There is no way my GSD could do it.


My TD's Mali heels like that too and he's told me my dog's heeling will be affected by conformation.

My dog heels like Tom van't Leefdaalhof, he has the kind of up-down-down rolling gait. Not my favorite but there are things about the dog's conformation and temperament that you can't change. 





My dog can get crabby and forgy but in his defense my focus has been entirely on drive and motivation. My other dog is very precise so I went a different direction with my younger dog. If I'd done more control of the head using food to begin with I'm sure we'd have better position at this point.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think that style of heeling looks silly heh.

Right now I'm working on heeling with my dog looking up at my face, but I don't like either style of heeling. Right now we're at the stage where I'm still looking at him, and when I practice I'm not always aware of stuff at his level so he's whacked his head on the table/counter-top/whatever a lot. I don't care if his eyes are on me, I only need his ears on me.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

You are probably not training for a judged and scored performance then?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lies, I definitely see the similarity between Nikon and Tom. I think there was one pic from your UKC weekend where Nikon's both of his front legs were WAY WAY up in the air! Very cool 

Which dog's (or dogs) heeling do you like?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Deejays_Owner said:


> Jason
> It's wild to watch people, when I take my Daughter & Little Raven to petsmart.
> I just park my dog at the small animal section, & people watch it's a blast!!
> :happyboogie:


Hah they probably think you have Little Raven rigged up on remote control


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, Larry or Lary or whatever his name is, is really collected in the rear and pushing from there. 

I haven't got that much collection in mine. I may go back and slow it down and change my food position a bit to increase the rear engagement. Fun stuff.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Samba said:


> You are probably not training for a judged and scored performance then?


Yes, eventually, otherwise I wouldn't be training it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jason L said:


> Lies, I definitely see the similarity between Nikon and Tom. I think there was one pic from your UKC weekend where Nikon's both of his front legs were WAY WAY up in the air! Very cool
> 
> Which dog's (or dogs) heeling do you like?


I do like the high prance I just wish it was a bit more consistent and not so much up and down, rolling kind of motion.

I love Claudia/Clip BH routine. 

I like Uruk: 




Or this one with the focus but a little less "prancing":


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have watched more than a couple Malinois people train heeling. All of them used a ball or toy in their armpit and an e-collar. They used the ball as the attraction and the e-collar to correct when the dog lost focus. There was actually a little bit more to it than that but suffice it to say, the e-collar had the effect of super charging the ball. The electric made the ball a bigger attraction than it already was. 

Not all prancing heeling comes from luring. It can be taught with a leash and corrections as well. As long as the handler provides enough of an attraction with praise.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen it done well with corrections and praise. I find it harder my self to get started that way. Some people are good at it and a good dog especially will come right along . Then you don't have so many steps to go through...weaning the lure, building in the sense of duty to task, etc.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think it depends on the type of dog it is, meaning temperament. The more stoic dogs with maybe more pack drive than ball drive will respond better to training with a leash and praise, ( as long as it is good training), while some of the more "modern" working lines, with the higher excitability and drive will work for something tangling above their heads. There is a big difference in certain types of dogs and when you watch these exaggerated displays of heeling, you only need to wait to watch the protection to see there is a price you pay for everything.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Samba said:


> building in the sense of duty to task, etc.


What methods would one use to do this?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, Carla, I think your boy Lary is wearing an e-collar. Also, take note of his nervous behavior during the sit out of motion and down out of motion. When you have a more amped dog due to nerves, you get more flash. There has been a trend over the last decade or so to breed this type of GSD. It will be hard to fix if it goes this way much longer IMO.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am afraid I like it because it is kind of like going to the circus. Not so good a reason, I admit. I'm not so skilled with the e-collar or ball so probably not going to have this heeling anyway. 

As far as a sense of duty asked about... thus far I have added correction to the exercise to instill this. 


Heeeeere's Lary:


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

deleted my own post, carry on..


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I already watched Lary in protection. There is not much there I like. Frantic, hectic, pulls behind the helper. Oh yeah he comes fast on the long bite but that too is frantic.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Totally unrelated ... but look at the mansion in the background on the long bite!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Anne. There is a nervous energy about Lary that I do not like. Watch his SIM and DIM during OB. In protection he goes for the elbow on the escape and is trying to pull out of the frontal position before the outs. 

I also HATE the armpit heeling. It is far too artificial for me. The dog working because of a lure instead of working for the handler.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is very "circusy" to be sure.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If they could get that dog to balance a ball on his nose, the look would be complete.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I have watched more than a couple Malinois people train heeling. All of them used a ball or toy in their armpit and an e-collar. They used the ball as the attraction and the e-collar to correct when the dog lost focus. There was actually a little bit more to it than that but suffice it to say, the e-collar had the effect of super charging the ball. The electric made the ball a bigger attraction than it already was.
> 
> Not all prancing heeling comes from luring. It can be taught with a leash and corrections as well. As long as the handler provides enough of an attraction with praise.


This is the way I've seen it too. They either did with the tele (e-collar) or the stachel (prong). Sometimes they use both. And the ball is always in the armpit.

I usually use the clicker. There is no need for using the tele on Yukon or Zenzy. Zenzy automatically looks at me just because she's eager to find out what's happening next. LOL


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, yeah, I can get my dogs to look at me, but it is nothing like this.

The explanation appears to be in the make-up of the dog as well as the tools utilized. 

I was feeling pretty inept as I can get heeling but, not driven contortion. I think I don't have all the ingredients.. in dog or method. 

I am going to have to get out more and try to see types working out there now. I can remember only a few dogs that were, uh, excited and exciting and a bit toward the more "activey" end of the spectrum. I do remember admiring the work of a Lewis M. son, way back when, and it was certainly not akin to this.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lies mentioned Clip. A little less exaggerated than Lary.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay here is some video of some obedience I like. It doesn't seem circusy but still has some zip and maybe some power?


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

:hug:


Jason L said:


> Totally unrelated ... but look at the mansion in the background on the long bite!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Learned a bit about the head straight up position.

It is felt to be desirable, at least by many, because it keeps the head and spine aligned. If the head starts to turn in toward the handler, then there is a tendency to butt out crabbing. This can lead to not so straight heeling position and also cause some some problems in finishes. It is an attempt to keep from losing points to those problems. 

It is the most difficult head position to keep. I guess this might lead to the extra work and luring such as ball and electric to keep the position solid.


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