# Why are West German Showline GSDs higher?



## GSD Fan

Okay,

the average price range of working German Shepherds is $1200-$1800? Right?

The average price range of a west german showline GSD is $2000-$3000? Correct?

Okay, my question is, why are WGSGSDs so much higher than working German Shepherds? 

I just don't understand it. It would make more sense if the working german shepherds were higher.

Is it because west german showline breeders are a lot fewer than working GSD breeders?


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## onyx'girl

I think there are many more SL breeders than WL's. 
The price has to do with the shows themselves....expensive to campaign, travel, hire professional handlers, not to mention the cost to send the dog off for training/titles.
WL breeders generally train/trial on their own out of enjoyment of working their dogs, learning about the pedigree's etc...which in turn keeps the costs down. Though trialing with any line is expensive, yet breeders don't always add that cost into what they are charging for puppies.

Then again, some SL or WL kennels don't show or trial at all and just sell pups due to the previous titles on the dogs they are breeding....so the cost to show/train is not an issue. Yet they still command higher prices for their pups.

BUT I do believe there is an inflation in prices and people will pay what certain SL kennels charge...doesn't make the dogs any better(though some people seem to think higher price=better doggy)


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## paulag1955

I think breeders can charge what the market will bear and there may be a bit of snobbery on the part of the buyers wanting a "show" dog.


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## Emoore

I thought we had a thread about this. . . ?


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## lemans

Vanity and egos.


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## mthurston0001

The monetary value of an item is whatever the public is willing to pay.


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## selzer

One of the things is that there is more name recognition for the top of the line show dogs, sieger and VA dogs is a concept that is easy to explain and is generally accepted. This was the top dog at the sieger show two years in a row, chosen out of hundreds of dogs. Similar to our Grand Victor, Grand Victrix here. This was the number 6 dog for the year, and in order to get that rating he had to jump through these hoops.

I think that working line dogs, at least from an outsider, you almost have to be a working line enthusiast to have the first idea who is who, what makes a puppy out of this breeding worth more than a puppy out of that breeding. 

For a working line dog, you want a dog for this, that or another thing. If you want a dog for police work, the top herding dog for the year is not going to be your first choice, and probably the tops schutzhund dog for the year will not be either. More impressive might be military or police dog in the background. But even then a puppy out of any lines for that type of work is a gamble. And it would make much more sense to by a green dog to train or a trained dog. 

But most of the buyers for show line dogs are pet owners. They are more concerned about how the dog looks and acts in a companion way (friendly, easy to train), and you can get a good idea about a pup in eight weeks, at least for the qualities that pet owners are looking for. 

So the majority of the people buying working lines for work or serious competition, are buying a young adult, or are raising up dogs out of their own breeding. These greed dogs will probably be started and reflect that in their cost.

People buying a dog for actual show, are often buying an older pup or young adult with promise and will spend more too. But people who want a puppy that looks the part, and has the temperament they want will pay more for show line pups than people who want a working line puppy will, and thus the price difference. It costs a lot for showing and importing or buying dogs with the qualities you want, and if you gamble buying a pup for breeding or raising up your own, there are so many reasons that pup will fall out.


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## GSDElsa

Emoore said:


> I thought we had a thread about this. . . ?


We did, and I got in big trouble!


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## wolfstraum

LOTS more SL breeders - big bucks in the show ring....more prestige....

But most Euro breeders sell for 1500 - 2500....show or work....

Lee


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## GSD Fan

Emoore said:


> I thought we had a thread about this. . . ?


I am sorry, I didn't know there was a thread about this already.


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## BR870

Because spine curving machines ain't cheap... 

Kidding... kidding... settle down


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## Lucy Dog

Why are lexus' priced higher than toyotas? It's the same company, similar designs, probably a lot of the same technology, but you spend almost double on the Lexus.


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## jennyp

I have a West German Show Line and he was 1500. But my breeder knows of people in other areas who do charge more. It depends on the breeder.


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## lhczth

World demand and people are willing to pay those high prices.


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## blehmannwa

When I got my boy, i know nothing about his lines but I was willing to pay a high price because of the hip and elbow guarantee. My guy's pedigree demonstrates that there are few of the congenital genetic issues that GSDs fall victim too in his bloodlines. He's all WGSL but it was not my intent to purchase a showline.


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## onyx'girl

So the guarantee was replacement, or would the breeder pay for the surgery? Not sure I would pay more for a guarantee because they usually don't mean a whole lot.
I wouldn't want a replacement, and I'm sure the refund price would be minimal compared to the cost of reconstructive surgery. 
I'd rather pay extra for the breeders reputation and program, looking at what they bred in the past. 
I don't know that I'd pay extra for Victor/Victrix progeny, I'm more impressed with seeing the dog and what they are as a total package.


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## LARHAGE

lemans said:


> Vanity and egos.



That is a ridiculous assertion, you like what you like, I like what I like and will gladly pay for it.


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## Ava

Part of it is what the breeders have to pay for breeding dogs, especially the imports. A proven WGSL dog from Germany can run well into the five digits. I am sure proven ASL dogs can also be very expense.

This did not really occur to me until talking with my Aussie's breeder. She claims she has been offered $50,000 for my pup's bitch. Do I believe her? I dunno. Don't care, I paid 600 with a spay contract. But I posted another pup out of her on this board and she was well known with HOF pedigree. Could be.... If a breeder pays big bucks for a breeding dog they have to charge accordingly for their pups to get any return on investment.

Ava's breeder has 4 or 5 WGSL bitches - all imports he purchased. Next time I talk to him I'll ask what he paid. I am sure he has more than a few grand in each.

I think it's just different for the WL's. Not many laying out 5 figures for proven working dogs. I am sure it happens, but probably not as common. The proven WL's are WORKING. No PD or military or hard core SchH competitor is going to sell their dog to some random breeder. There are fewer WL breeders and they want to see their pups go into working environments much more so the SL breeders.

I think there's just more "business" involved on the show side. Business cost money. The WL's also cost, but it's more commitment and dedication, which can't be bought.


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## Lucy Dog

LARHAGE said:


> That is a ridiculous assertion, you like what you like, I like what I like and will gladly pay for it.


Well said - completely agreed.


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## PaddyD

LARHAGE said:


> That is a ridiculous assertion, you like what you like, I like what I like and will gladly pay for it.


I disagree with the first part and agree with the second part.

Basically, people say " I want one of THOSE, how much?"
Then bend over and gladly grab their ankles.


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## onyx'girl

I see new people show up at training with a high priced dog, then they see how the cheaper version works and state they wish they'd gotten one of those...they have their work cut out for them training/they see that right off the bat.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> I see new people show up at training with a high priced dog, then they see how the cheaper version works and state they wish they'd gotten one of those...they have their work cut out for them training/they see that right off the bat.


I think EVERYONE has their work cut out for them on their very first dog. New people see me come in with a new puppy to training, and the trainer often says to them, she's been through this before. And whether the newbies are working a show line or a working line dog they have their work cut out for them and they know it. Has nothing to do with the price tag.


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## PaddyD

onyx'girl said:


> I see new people show up at training with a high priced dog, then they see how the cheaper version works and state they wish they'd gotten one of those...they have their work cut out for them training/they see that right off the bat.


Correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that cheaper dogs are less work, yes?


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## robinhuerta

*Never....*have I bent over and grabbed my ankles for *any* dog....._nor has any buyer_, _that has purchased one of our dogs...._


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## onyx'girl

read between the lines...yes. I don't want to 'bash' lines so am not calling out one or the other. Though I will say a dog with higher drives is easier to train. Selzer, I never said it was 'very first dog'. Some have had shepherds their whole lives according to them.


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## robinhuerta

I agree Jane.....a dog with "stronger drive"...in the long run, is easier in training.
Perhaps not "easier" sometimes in other areas..LOL!......I would still *personally* want it over the latter anytime.
If I liked "no drive".....I'd own rocks.


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## onyx'girl

we have two SL's in our group, from Kirschental lineage. They are great specimens and show that SL's can do SchH!....but others that bring in some of their SL's, well~ they wish they had what they see on the field.


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## robinhuerta

Been there...done that....had that. *Never again.*.....I won't intentially breed, something that I wouldn't want to own.


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## blehmannwa

Robin,what is your experience with Kirschental? I'm curious because Havs has those lines but also has some common ancestors with dogs in your breeding program. This comes from a genuine interest as I respect your opinion. You can PM me if you like. I'd appreciate it.


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## Packen

Many SL breeders buy titles. Have to recover the expense somehow, what better than to charge more for the pups!


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## Samba

Yes, due to genetic traits some dogs are easier to train than others. All first dogs are not created equal.


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## Lucy Dog

Packen said:


> Many SL breeders buy titles. Have to recover the expense somehow, what better than to charge more for the pups!


SL breeders buy titles or buy titled dogs?


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## LARHAGE

PaddyD said:


> I disagree with the first part and agree with the second part.
> 
> Basically, people say " I want one of THOSE, how much?"
> Then bend over and gladly grab their ankles.



I have never grabbed my ankles buying my dogs, they were exactly what I wanted, I'm sure there have been a lot of people who have been screwed on their dog purchases, and I'm sure the ratio of WL to SL is equal, I just know I haven't, I have NO regrets and would spend every red cent I spent again in a heartbeat. Who are you to determine the value of a dog? It's a free market, my dog may be overpriced to you, I may say the same of yours.


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## Liesje

I just think it is a market thing. Plenty of people will pay $2-$3K so that's what they cost. It's like having one band sell their tickets for $50 and another for $150...doesn't make one band "better" than the other at least not in the eyes of the fans but some can get away with higher prices an sell out.


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## holland

onyx'girl said:


> I see new people show up at training with a high priced dog, then they see how the cheaper version works and state they wish they'd gotten one of those...they have their work cut out for them training/they see that right off the bat.


If thats true -I think its sad because there will always be someone who trains better or maybe has a better dog. The best quote I ever heard was "you train what you've got"-and if its not schutzhund there are a lot of other things that you can do


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## cliffson1

I agree Holland, unless they brought the dog to do Sch and this is what they were expecting and paid for. Then I can understand their disappointment. Its not the dog, but the realization that they don't have what they sought. Seems kinda human to me.


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## Emoore

GSD Fan said:


> I am sorry, I didn't know there was a thread about this already.


It was several months ago. I believe you started it.  I can't for the life of me figure out how to find it. Running a search for "show line working line cost" gets me nowhere.


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## GSDElsa

No, it wasn't her--it was someone else. At least the thread I'm thinking about.


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## Hillary_Plog

PaddyD said:


> I disagree with the first part and agree with the second part.
> 
> Basically, people say " I want one of THOSE, how much?"
> Then bend over and gladly grab their ankles.


When I see comments like this, it makes me wonder what, if any, knowledge or credible information people like this have to offer to topics of discussion, or if it is just "pot stirring" based on a lack of any real knowledge pertaining to the thread subject...snarky comments here and there about personal preferences based mostly on assumptions and no real education or interest in any of it.

I have seen sooooooo many people "grabbing their ankles" over EVERY type of dog...I can't count how many times I have been at schutzhund training and in pulls up Mr. or Mrs. Bigshot and their "incredible" schutzhund prosepect that they just imported or bought for just as much, if not more, than any showline...and guess what????

Plenty of those "bigshots" were so screwed and it was sorrowful watching them struggle and make excuses for their amazing working line pedigree and their temperament or health issues.

I'm not sure there will ever truly be a definitive explanation for the price difference...we all have opinions, but certainly can't prove them...but, it has *NOTHING *to do with how hard a breeder does or does not work (as it is implied that ALL showline breeders work little and charge a lot) or the quality of their dogs.

My advice to the OP...and I'm sorry, it will NOT contain any preference or bias about "ankle grabbing"...is to *DO YOUR RESEARCH*...you will find that there are reasonably priced dogs, from pet to working and show quality, from breeders that are not interested in ankle grabbing (unless it's something they are doing in their own bedroom on their own time )


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## Cassidy's Mom

Here's the previous thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...curious-about-pricing-between-sl-wl-gsds.html


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## cliffson1

There are definite reasons for the difference in prices, knowledgable unbiased people know them....anyway what difference does it make. The dog is worth what the market will bear. Internationally, people seek the breed more for cosmetic reasons than working reasons....apply basic economics and you should be able to figure this out.


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## Danielle609

Hillary_Plog said:


> When I see comments like this, it makes me wonder what, if any, knowledge or credible information people like this have to offer to topics of discussion, or if it is just "pot stirring" based on a lack of any real knowledge pertaining to the thread subject...snarky comments here and there about personal preferences based mostly on assumptions and no real education or interest in any of it.
> 
> I have seen sooooooo many people "grabbing their ankles" over EVERY type of dog...I can't count how many times I have been at schutzhund training and in pulls up Mr. or Mrs. Bigshot and their "incredible" schutzhund prosepect that they just imported or bought for just as much, if not more, than any showline...and guess what????
> 
> Plenty of those "bigshots" were so screwed and it was sorrowful watching them struggle and make excuses for their amazing working line pedigree and their temperament or health issues.
> 
> I'm not sure there will ever truly be a definitive explanation for the price difference...we all have opinions, but certainly can't prove them...but, it has *NOTHING *to do with how hard a breeder does or does not work (as it is implied that ALL showline breeders work little and charge a lot) or the quality of their dogs.
> 
> My advice to the OP...and I'm sorry, it will NOT contain any preference or bias about "ankle grabbing"...is to *DO YOUR RESEARCH*...you will find that there are reasonably priced dogs, from pet to working and show quality, from breeders that are not interested in ankle grabbing (unless it's something they are doing in their own bedroom on their own time )


 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: oh and :rofl: for the last comment!


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## GSD Fan

cliffson1 said:


> There are definite reasons for the difference in prices, knowledgable unbiased people know them....anyway what difference does it make. The dog is worth what the market will bear. Internationally, people seek the breed more for cosmetic reasons than working reasons....apply basic economics and you should be able to figure this out.


Well excuse me for asking.


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## LARHAGE

ANYTHING is only worth what someone's willing to pay for it. it's as simple as that.


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## wolfstraum

I don't think Cliff was being snarky there....he was just saying it is not hard to figure out that because most buyers want the "typical" black and red show type, those breeders who produce them and are successful in the showring are able to charge huge prices...

I refer out lots of inquiries who want black and tan/red/brown....I have only had a few pups that were not sable or black...and most pet people want what they think is "Rin Tin Tin" for looks....just like most pet people with Collies want sables and don't even know Collies come in Blue Merle and Tris...

Lee


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## Packen

Lucy Dog said:


> SL breeders buy titles or buy titled dogs?


Both, very few work their own and title them the right way. Have you heard of midnight trials in Germany? Many SL breeders sent a check and their dog to be magically titled and returned after a few months.


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## Jessiewessie99

There are bad breeders who charge $1200+ for their dogs, and there are good breeders who $1200+ for their dogs 

In the end its all a matter of research.


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## cliffson1

Thank You Wolfstraum.....I wasn't trying to be snarkey, but Jeez!!!!!!


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## blehmannwa

When I visited my boy's breeder, it was very obvious that being a good breeder isn't cheap. The puppy kennels were immaculate, there were attendants on duty 24/7. The electric bill alone of keeping those pups at the optimum temp must be a burden. Not to mention the vet care for all the dogs. 

I'm not even factoring in the cost of importing new stock. I paid a lot to get a pup that got the best start in life possible and I wouldn't be surprised if my breeder makes less profit on their three grand pups than some hobbyists make on their $1,000.00 dogs. I also really liked that each dog in the breeding program was a companion --a pet, not an asset that resided in a kennel.


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## onyx'girl

Your boys breeder is a commercial kennel obviously? If they are paying attendants to oversee their operation, the overhead must be huge compared to a small hobby hands-on breeder who takes care of their own dogs and pups. 
Being a "good breeder" doesn't have to cost that much, unless they are so big that they can't manage their program without hired help.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> Your boys breeder is a commercial kennel obviously? If they are paying attendants to oversee their operation, the overhead must be huge compared to a small hobby hands-on breeder who takes care of their own dogs and pups.
> *Being a "good breeder" doesn't have to cost that much, unless they are so big that they can't manage their program without hired help*.


Are you a breeder?


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## GermanShepherds6800

Most working line dogs are worked and shown very little if any. Many only go to one adult conformation show to get their sg. The German show lines have to attend sch for all the working title besides they campaign in shows many a year versus only going one. Much more money goes into fully proving a show line besides also harder to get that dog to the top than what working lines do.


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## onyx'girl

Do you hire help to manage your breeding program? I'm aware it costs $$ to breed, Selzer 

Hobby breeders don't have to hire help to run their kennel. Hiring help doesn't make one a "good breeder", that was my point.


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## lhczth

In the USA most working line breeders, heck even most show line breeders, show very little. In Germany, especially, many don't want just an SG rating and these people train. Several times per week for their work and at least several hours per week for the conformation ring. Also, to get to the top in the working world (SchH) requires more than just going to one working event per year. I agree that campaigning a dog for conformation is expensive because the dogs must be seen in order to have any chance of doing well at the Sieger show, they need professional handlers, and they must have a progeny group if they hope to VA. It isn't cheap to compete at the top in work either. But no matter what, the prices are determined by the willingness of people in many countries to pay 6 figures for those big "pretty" plushy black/brown dogs.


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## Josie/Zeus

Infiniti or Nissan, Toyota or Lexus?


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## selzer

I think hiring help does not necessarily make you a bad or good breeder. You would definitely have to have more litters and cover the costs, but kennel help would allow you to train and trial and show more with your dogs, not just swap out the kennels and feed, water, and groom the dogs. And it allows the owners to have more dogs, more lines, make more of an impact with more breeding decisions, holding pups back, breeding decisions beyond this generation. 

In itself it does not make them bad or good.


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## Emoore

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's the previous thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...curious-about-pricing-between-sl-wl-gsds.html


Yup, that's the thread I was thinking of, but for some reason I had though GSDFan asked the question. . . maybe because she always asks interesting questions.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> I think hiring help does not necessarily make you a bad or good breeder.


Yeah, that was Jane's point.


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## blehmannwa

Of course I did not mean to imply that "hiring help" makes someone a good breeder. I was just saying that large operations have large overhead which adds to the cost of the dogs. I don't know how much impact that would have on the cost differential between show and working lines.


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## onyx'girl

How many working line breeders are commercial? I can only think of one....Kraftwerk, though I'm sure there are plenty more, but not as many as SL breeders.


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## selzer

I dunno, having kennel help and being commercial sounds like two different things. I mean, I can see having someone help, without actually being commercial. I mean, if you have 6 dogs and you have 2 entered in a 3-day show in the next state, it is not practical to take them all with you, and it really isn't a good thing to take them to a boarding facility either. Dad isn't going to be able to do that forever. 

Having paid attendants around the clock in the whelping area, does sound pretty commercial though.


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## Jack's Dad

It's simple why they cost more.
They are (white collar) dogs.
The others are (blue collar) working dogs.


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## blehmannwa

Kratftwerk pups are three grand for working lines. Possibly the size of the operation does have something to do with cost. It's not like puppies or dogs are cheaper by the dozen.


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## cliffson1

Their are some excellent commercial working kennels where you can get great dogs. Eurosport. Jinopo, Creative Kennels, etc. all produce some very nice dogs because they have good stock to start with. 
As for showing having anything to do with prices....agrwww, in a normal litter of 8 show pups, some are going to not be show quality for a host of reasons.....missing teeth, undescended testicles, bad structure, bad temperament, too big or too small or short upper arm or too steep a croup or not enough angulation or curled tail, and on and on and on. So few of these dogs will actually become "show" dogs and many will be eliminated at 8 weeks. So WHY are people paying high figures for these dogs/pups????? Its certainly not the show ring!


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## Lucy Dog

A lot of times people equate price with quality. You feel much safer buying a puppy that costs $4,000 instead of $400, so the $4,000 dogs must be better.


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## houckster6

wolfstraum said:


> I don't think Cliff was being snarky there....he was just saying it is not hard to figure out that because most buyers want the "typical" black and red show type, those breeders who produce them and are successful in the showring are able to charge huge prices...
> 
> I refer out lots of inquiries who want black and tan/red/brown....I have only had a few pups that were not sable or black...and most pet people want what they think is "Rin Tin Tin" for looks....just like most pet people with Collies want sables and don't even know Collies come in Blue Merle and Tris...
> 
> Lee


 I ended up with the "typical" black and red type with my new pup. And you always get the typical _"she's so pretty!" _comment whenever you take her anywhere. Truth be told, I enjoyed people's reactions to my first GSD (recently deceased) much more. _"What kind of dog is that?" _was the most popular. Since he really did look like a cross between a small donkey/GSD with a gray wolf's coloring, I could hardly blame them. Now whenever people comment on how pretty Asia is on the street I have to refrain from saying _"yes, but she's reeeeaaalllyyyy smart too. Not just a pretty face!" _

*Sigh. Poor Asia just wants to be taken seriously!


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> It's simple why they cost more.
> They are (white collar) dogs.
> The others are (blue collar) working dogs.



I think you're right, most of mine have brownish tan collars though -- those must be for the issue of inter-breed-line matings. I need to run out and get Odie a white collar now.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> I thought we had a thread about this. . . ?


Just one thread?


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## Packen

cliffson1 said:


> Their are some excellent commercial working kennels where you can get great dogs. Eurosport. Jinopo, Creative Kennels, etc. all produce some very nice dogs because they have good stock to start with.


Any significant achievements from these dogs?


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## maxtmill

I was told that the German SL would be most suitable for me, based on my requirements for my dog - a more laid-back animal for a pet and emotional support dog. I was not interested in a high powered working dog. My previous GSDs came from a breeder/show person, and the other from a dedicated hobby breeder.I, too, have noticed a huge price descrepancy between a working dog and the showline.I am interested in finding a German SL breeder who has reasonable prices for a companion animal. I have no intention to breed or show.


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## Liulfr

I chose SL because I think WL is just too much dog for me. I don't want or need a dog with high drive. And yes, the price for our pup wound up double what we originally wanted to pay, but it came down to what we were getting for the extra money: a puppy raised completely inside with children and cats, 80% house broken, 100% crate trained, knowing several basic commands (including on and off leash heel), etc. by the time he came home to us. Plus a fantastic pedigree with the expected health guarantees and such. Over the course of a few months, I absolutely fell in love with the breeder and her dogs. We are in contact daily, and I have total faith in her character and judgement. Her guidance has been invaluable. All of this is very much worth the price tag to me. Could I have found all of this in a WL? Maybe? Probably? I don't know. I found the type of dog and breeder I wanted in my life, and that's what made the decision. Not the up front cost.


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