# UKC is NOT lower quality



## Lauri & The Gang

I get REALLY tired of hearing people dis UKC championships and the UKC show ring competition.

Personally, I put MORE value on a UKC CH than an AKC CH. There are NO professional handlers allowed in UKC. To me this means the judging takes place at the *CORRECT *end of the leash.

If you have enough $$$ you could take a crappy dog, buy a top name handler and get an AKC title on it. That wouldn't happen in UKC.


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## Discoetheque

I personally love showing UKC. The people there are so friendly and helpful, and I always have a good time during a show-weekend. I haven't shown in more than a year because of finances, but I'm looking forward to getting back into it this season. It's great for someone like me who is a novice handler, and who just does it because I like spending time with my friends and my dog, as opposed to someone who might be putting a lot more stake behind it.


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## Xeph

> That wouldn't happen in UKC.


True. You can finish a crappy dog yourself in UKC for a lot less money

I have seen some GREAT examples of GSDs finish in UKC that wouldn't get a look in AKC (and wrongly so). I've also seen some absolutely horrid examples that are obviously "Just pets".

It happens in both rings, but it seems to happen a lot more in UKC, IMO.


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## onyx'girl

:toasting:


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## Xeph

Would like to add that UKC seems to be better for some breeds than others. I personally find the quality of UKC White Shepherd champions to be higher overall than the GSDs


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## MustLoveGSDs

From what I've read, it's so easy to get a UKC CH. People have put UKC CH on their dogs without ever seeing/beating another dog of their breed. The general consensus is that it's great practice for inexperienced handlers or owners that just want to have fun in a more relaxed atmosphere, but more value is placed on an AKC CH title and with most breeds, a puppy buyer in the US should really question a breeder who only has UKC ch titles on their dogs, and that some people take it very personal when UKC is compared to AKC for the reasons mentioned.


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## Xeph

> People have put UKC CH on their dogs without ever seeing/beating another dog of their breed


Yup.

The UKC GrCh is harder to obtain (and rather well respected), but then I think, why not just put those rules in place in the first place for a championship?


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## Jax08

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I get REALLY tired of hearing people dis UKC championships and the UKC show ring competition.
> 
> Personally, I put MORE value on a UKC CH than an AKC CH. There are NO professional handlers allowed in UKC. To me this means the judging takes place at the *CORRECT *end of the leash.
> 
> If you have enough $$$ you could take a crappy dog, buy a top name handler and get an AKC title on it. That wouldn't happen in UKC.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I have friends that refuse to show AKC anymore because it was all about who owned the dog and who was handling it.


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## Loneforce

Jonas's breeder does ukc and loves it. He keeps trying to get me to show Jonas there.


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## carmspack

it , once again , depends on who your competition was for the show event .


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## Liesje

carmspack said:


> it , once again , depends on who your competition was for the show event .


Well, yeah, I mean that's true no matter what you do. That's the nature of it being a competition.

I'm lucky to live an hour from UKC headquarters so there is no shortage of events here or competition. You can always get wins with GSDs and typically I am competing against CH and GRCH dogs. I've been in the breed ring a few times with a GRCH, Multi-BIS bitch. She is not my type (none of the dogs her owner exhibits are, but the owner is very nice and very helpful, another reason to like UKC) but it's good experience being able to handle my own dogs in the same ring. Most of the handlers of GSDs have decades of experience breeding and showing GSDs in UKC and AKC. 

One thing I like about UKC is you only get points and wins against your own breed. Group placements are nice but don't count. If there's not enough competition in your breed ring, then you can't just automatically get wins and titles (I believe this is also true of AKC).


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## Liesje

MustLoveGSDs said:


> From what I've read, it's so easy to get a UKC CH. People have put UKC CH on their dogs without ever seeing/beating another dog of their breed.


You read wrong, it's impossible. You need at least 100 points and 3 wins. Wins are, well, wins. You don't get one if you don't beat other dogs and you can't get wins in Group.

For GRCH you need five wins in the CH class, I believe under 5 different judges, and have to beat at least two other dogs each time.

I agree with Xeph, I see too many dogs getting wins where the judge should have just withheld if the dogs were not the right level of quality and there wasn't enough competition. I don't know why judges don't do that more often, it's perfectly within their right to do so. This is one aspect of UKC I could like to see changed, although like I said there are some really nice GSDs being exhibited at the popular shows here so it hasn't been a problem for in this area (I never get wins!). So it's not perfect, but no venue is.


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## Liesje

Xeph said:


> Yup.
> 
> The UKC GrCh is harder to obtain (and rather well respected), but then I think, why not just put those rules in place in the first place for a championship?


I would concur but how would it work? Best of Winners 5 times? What "class" would you have to win to earn the win?


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## Xeph

> If there's not enough competition in your breed ring, then you can't just automatically get wins and titles (I believe this is also true of AKC).


Well...not exactly.

You can get a major through a Group win. If there is no competition in your breed, you get no points, but automatically get BOB and sent to group.

If your dog goes Group 1 and there was a major in any of the other breeds that are exhibiting in the group that day, your dog is awarded a major (nobody in the group "loses" their major, btw).

So, there's no competition in GSDs, so Nikon goes BOB, goes to Group, wins the group. There was a 3 point major in Malinois that day. Congratulations, Nikon now has a major win.


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## cliffson1

There was a time AKC probably had superior specimens in general.....now I think most of the dogs in AKC ring are pets also.


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## dogfaeries

Okay, I'll put my 2 cents in. And believe me, that's ALL it's worth, since I am a newcomer to showing in conformation, though I've been going to dog shows for the last 45 years as a spectator.

It's HARD to finish a GSD in AKC. And it's not automatic, even if you are a big name handler. 


I'll give you a recent example, using my champion bitch, Carly, and a champion bitch that was shown by a TOP handler. These girls are about a month apart in age, and have been shown against each other several times. They finished their championships within TWO days of each other, on the same weekend.

Carly finished with 19 points, 3 majors, under 8 judges. She won her points with my handler, my co-owner, and two different junior handlers. Oh, and I am a nobody, with what I think is a nice bitch.

The other bitch was shown by a TOP handler. She finished with 15 points, 2 majors, under 9 judges. I guarantee you that this bitch was shown in way more shows than my bitch was. This bitch is owned by someone that has been in the breed for many many many years (who can afford this TOP handler).

Yes, the AKC German Shepherd Dog breed ring is dominated by handlers. I have a handler because I can't show a dog to save my life. Yes, I have been frustrated because sometimes I think the judge is out of their everlovin' mind.


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## Wolfgeist

I agree. I value UKC more so than AKC/CKC - very difficult to win AKC/CKC with a working line Shepherd, especially sable. UKC appreciates the working shepherd.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Liesje said:


> You read wrong, it's impossible. .



I don't think so? Here are 3 different examples of what I've read from the other breed forum I'm on(as I am sure this topic has been discussed ad nauseum on other forums as well), there are others who obtained a UKC Ch in one weekend but I don't feel like digging:

*"*So, two days of shows for a total of 4 shows = one UKC championship. In each of those 4 shows, xxx was the only Doberman which really surprised me - I really thought that there would be more. I know that if I ever wanted to put a Grand Championship on him I would have to find shows where several UKC champion Dobermans were competing...... so it is unlikely that I will ever do that. I did find it to be relaxed and fun - no pros handling so I actually looked pretty darn good in the ring - LOL! It is great ring practice with your dog and I do recommend it to anyone who is considering trying it.*"*

*"*Yes you can get a UKC ch. without ever beating another dog of your breed by beating other breeds in group. We earned our championship that way however my girl is also an AKC championship and that we fought long and hard for. I like them both for different reasons... so I will always show in both but for me I want a breeder who competes in AKC as well.*"*

*"*I showed xxx one weekend in UKC she had her title and went Reserve Best in Show a couple of the shows, it was good practice for us both. I have to say to me the disappointing thing I have seen in UKC is lack of breed quality or type. And lack of Judges knowing the breed standard <Of the two sets of shows I've gone to, I had Judges give my dogs compliments on their faults>. Don't get me wrong there are nice dogs and sometimes AKC CH or top dogs within their breed, but mainly I've seen very poor quality dobes from unreputable "breeders". I see no reason to not go and try it for fun but I see no reason to have the titles mean much of anything either. You can show dogs earlier/younger in UKC, so if you have a puppy you need practice with then I say why not, a dog who finished quickly or is altered or you just want to get out why not do it, or do more performance stuff I can see the fun in that.*"*


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## Xeph

No Competition at "Breed" level
You will receive 10 points for a First Place in your class and 15 points for Best Male/Female. 
You may also take a Best of Breed ribbon. This entitles you to go on to Group competition.

No Competition at "Breed" or "Group" Level
If you place in 1-4th in Group (4th place gets competition win, only if there are 5 or more breeds entered) you will have a competition win.
That competition win and the 25 points now count towards your dog's championship, even though your dog was the only one of its breed competing at that show.

Reserve and Best in Show
A dog that has no competition in either it's Breed Classes or the Group can still take a competition win 
by going Best In Show or Reserve Best In Show, if there is competition at that level.


Read this on the UKC Forums....soooo it really does seem you can finish a dog with no competition in its breed
Group Wins at all-breed shows will also award competition points to a Best Male/Female with no competition in its breed, but a Group 4 winner is only awarded competition points if more than five breeds are being shown in group.


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## gagsd

http://res.ukcdogs.com/pdf/2011ConformationRulebook.pdf


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## carmspack

very difficult to win AKC/CKC with a working line Shepherd, especially sable 

well , in truth , the CKC / AKC ring has always accepted sables - 

a working line dog , well built , with proper conformation should be just fine under an All Breed judge which appreciates balance more than a Specialty judge which tends to favour the more extreme type . The Specialty judges tend to come from the respective Breed Clubs, either the GSDCof A or the GSDCof C.

there are all sorts of tricks -- some handlers will take on lesser quality animals to handle to "pad" the ring , more dogs defeated , the greater the points . Some handlers will go to remote areas bring a lesser dog who would not finish in a higher competition area -- so that he is the best of a mediocre lot, and wins , does not mean he is great , or good , just the best out of what was presented.


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## Liesje

Xeph said:


> Read this on the UKC Forums....soooo it really does seem you can finish a dog with no competition in its breed


That's crazy, they shouldn't get wins outside of the breed, kind of defeats the purpose, no? For us it's not an issue, there's never *not* competition (and we usually get beat!). I've never understood why UKC tallies points anyway. If you get your 3 wins (within your breed) then you've got your points and even if you get double the points you need, it doesn't help you any.


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## onyx'girl

carmspack said:


> there are all sorts of tricks -- some handlers will take on lesser quality animals to handle to "pad" the ring , more dogs defeated , the greater the points .


I was asked to use my WL pup to add to the competition. It was fightin' words in my opinion, LOL and a bit of a bash to my dog and his breeding! I was even offered the entry fee. I didn't take up the offer but would have been proud if my dog placed in front of the dog that I was asked to compete against.


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## Lauri & The Gang

carmspack said:


> there are all sorts of tricks -- some handlers will take on lesser quality animals to handle to "pad" the ring , more dogs defeated , the greater the points . Some handlers will go to remote areas bring a lesser dog who would not finish in a higher competition area --


In the AKC ring handlers will have people with lesser dogs compete in order to make majors. They also go to places with less competition.



carmspack said:


> so that he is the best of a mediocre lot, and wins , does not mean he is great , or good , just the best out of what was presented.


A GOOD judge will withhold the win if there isn't a dog of suitable quality presented. I've been there - twice - with my Skye Terrier. His topline wasn't the greatest but I was showing him just for fun. He would either be the ONLY dog or one of just a couple. I had two different judges put him up as WD but withhold the breed win.

I appreciate their honesty and dedication to having only the best move on to the group/show ring.


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## DJEtzel

I live less than a mile from UKC's headquarters.

That's all I know. lol.


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## martemchik

I'm interested to see what its like. I'm planning on sending in my paperwork for UKC registration today or tomorrow so that I can do a show in the beginning of February. Might be my only shot at a show for a while since they're so few and far in between in my area. I'm guessing there will either be some competition, or none at all.

I know of a bitch (hopefully my next pup's dam) who is V rated and was entered in an AKC show. She got first the first day (due to no competitors) and then moved on to the group. The second day the judge gave her a win but withheld the first place ribbon. So she couldn't go onto the group competition.


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## martemchik

I might check out the obedience portion of the show and whatever else they'll have since I know UKC puts more weight on doing conformation and performance in the same show. So that might be something I'd be interested in as well.

In my opinion, the AKC has just been able to develop an exclusivity and the general public thinks its the "one true registry." Being so much bigger and more well known it's championships carry more weight with regular people and most breeders (they get more money for puppies due to AKC championships). AKC is what our breed club uses and judges dogs based on AKC rules. There are a lot of reasons why the AKC is so much bigger and thought of as so much better, but few of them boil down to the actual dogs shown. It's just the marketing they've been able to do over the past 100+ years and being the chosen registry in the United States.


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## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> I might check out the obedience portion of the show and whatever else they'll have since *I know UKC puts more weight on doing conformation and performance in the same show.*


This is why I like the UKC events...it tries to show the total dog, not just the conformation side.
I know AKC does as well, but UKC is geared more toward the sport/hunt/working breeds, IMO, not the little pocket companions.
Taken from their site: _
The programs at UKC include Obedience Trials, Rally Obedience Trials, Agility Trials, Weight Pull Events, Terrier Races, Dock Jumping Events, Lure Coursing, Total Junior Program, Coonhound Field Trials, Water Races, Nite Hunts and Bench Shows, Hunt Tests for retrieving breeds, Pointing Dog Events, Beagle Events (including Hunts and Bench Shows, and Cur and Feist Squirrel and **** Events and Bench Shows. 

Rounding out the 'Total Dog' package, UKC Conformation Events are among our largest growing events. UKC dog shows are family events designed by and for the breeder-owner-handler. Professional Handlers are not eligible to exhibit dogs for others at UKC Conformation Events. At UKC dog shows,* the emphasis is on the DOG, not the SHOW.*_


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## Liesje

Yeah Total Dog points are a big deal for some people! I know a lot of people (not GSD) that *only* enter Total Dog (meaning they are *always* doing conformation and a performance event).

UKC for GSDs can be hit or miss but for a lot of breeds it's a pretty big deal and there are really high quality dogs. Of course it goes without saying for breeds that are not in AKC (Klee Kai, White Shepherds, for example) but even some that are have a very high quality UKC following that are not your novice handler like myself. 

I find that at smaller shows with GSDs it's very hard to get anywhere with a young male class dog. I've offered to help enter and handle dogs for several people so that we can get some competition going in the classes and exhibit some GSDs other than the extreme Amlines (which do show up in UKC though not really *the* type like they are in AKC specialty). It's a win-win for them. If the dog wins, they're getting points and if the dog loses, oh well they didn't have to handle the dog anyway. One of the young WL males we put in ended up doing pretty well and a friend got to try handling for the first time. I helped an acquaintance enter her dog at a show last minute and there was a Junior handler that offered to handle so she got the Juniors points as well. At the bigger shows there's generally GSD competition in every class. The nice thing about UKC is that they do TL numbers and Day-Of-Show entries so there's nothing prohibiting someone from getting involved with their dog, your dog doesn't even have to be registered the day of the show and it can still enter and compete (but you can only keep the points/wins if you get the dog properly registered within 60 days).

Also I like that the UKC technically does not allow excessive grooming. Some people still do and I have no idea how they get caught, but for most people it's nice to not have to worry about getting judged based on the grooming and not the actual condition of the dog. Of course I bathe my dog the week of a show, trim nails, clean ears, thoroughly brush and make sure the coat is in good condition, but we aren't pressured to spend hours grooming on a show day. The last show I was at I took my dog off the lure course directly into the ring (the coursing was taking forever) and he ended up getting his first big win in the Champions class.


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> Being so much bigger


What do you mean by "bigger"?


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## NancyJ

I don't have any thing to put in this thread but for new folks did want to point out there is CKC "Canadian Kennel Club" and CKC "Continental Kennel Club" 

I believe the CKC here is referring to the canadian club and not the US continental club which has a very poor reputation for registering any and all dogs, including mutts.


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## carmspack

yes , that is why I frequently write CanKC , because before this forum I had no idea about the "other ckc" -- no relation. CanKC is part of the FCI


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## martemchik

Liesje said:


> What do you mean by "bigger"?


More shows, more dogs, just a bigger "presence" in the public eye. Like I just looked through when the next conformation show after February's will be in my area and its in June. It's also put on by the same club lol. You just don't really see that with AKC events as there are so many more clubs that are putting on AKC events than UKC.


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## Liesje

But that is still relative. There are pockets where UKC is hugely popular. I haven't bothered with AKC events for years because there are so many UKC events, usually closer to me and cheaper, with a wider variety of events. They also seem to have more breeds (and have more groups). It's the same with CPE agility around here, very popular. However some areas of the country have never heard of CPE.


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## martemchik

Liesje said:


> But that is still relative. There are pockets where UKC is hugely popular. I haven't bothered with AKC events for years because there are so many UKC events, usually closer to me and cheaper, with a wider variety of events. They also seem to have more breeds (and have more groups). It's the same with CPE agility around here, very popular. However some areas of the country have never heard of CPE.


Oh yeah, I agree, but nationally, AKC is the big dog. I think I'll really enjoy doing UKC events once I figure them out and they pop up. It would be awesome to get a championship on my boy, even if no one else cares about it. I'll be extremely proud of a Ch. in front of his name. The total dog thing would also be awesome as I'm more interested in obedience and agility events than conformation. Maybe out in Michigan there are people that ask about UKC championships and stuff but I think most regional and national breeders worry more about AKC if they're doing conformation. The GSDCA is affiliated with the AKC so more people will naturally be drawn to it.


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## Liesje

Again it's a matter of perspective. I'm not a member of the GSDCA and don't know any Am line people/breeders so I wouldn't even know how to find an AKC show. I don't know what a "national breeder" is.

I'm sure to the public the AKC stands out because they have events on TV, but considering how many people are duped into buying "papered" dogs from the petstore that are ConKC, APRI, etc I doubt that the general public really thinks the AKC is all that superior to other registries.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Liesje, Jack Onofrio Dog Shows, LLC has all the AKC show listings.


I reeeeally want to enter a dog in a UKC show. It looks and sounds fun and more my style.


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## Xeph

Not all, but a lot

Infodog.com (MB-F) has many listings from all over the country


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## gagsd

Just use the event search at AKC.org
Very user friendly.
Too many show superintendents to track that way, IMO.


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## Xeph

They seem to be based on location. I've only used three ever. MB-F. Onofrio, and Roy Jones (haven't used RJ since living in WI)


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## martemchik

Yeah...its really not perspective when you're talking about the MAJORITY. If you just go to their websites and look at the show listings...AKC probably has at least one show a weekend in most states, and sometimes even more than one. Just because YOU don't look them up or know where to find them doesn't mean there aren't more. Even in Michigan, where the UKC is based, there are about the same number of AKC shows as there are UKC. Everywhere else, its not even close. I've spoken to people at AKC shows that love doing UKC but have stopped because its so hard to find shows and actually title due to the lack of shows.

I'm not badmouthing the UKC, just a fact that its way smaller nationally than the AKC.

National breeders are those that are involved in national competitions and do show their dogs nationally. I know its a big deal for my club members to go to the GSDCA Nationals, and we have one member that went to the USCA Nationals as well this year. Its the people that do bring in dogs from outside their state or region in order to grow their lines and those breeders tend to send dogs to other places to stud or breed so that their lines are used all over. I know that the norm is for "local" breeding to generally be very regionalized as its very expensive to send dogs away to other places and just easier to do locally, but there are a lot of breeders that have "national" recognition due to their dogs.

It also helps that the national AKC events are nationally televised and a lot of non-dog people even tune into them.


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## Tim Connell

I have observed that at least the UKC has noticed, and updated their breed standard to discourage some of the things that in my opinion, have been a detriment to the breed.

From the UKC standard:

_"The tendencies toward exaggeration and steep angles are unacceptable. German Shepherd Dogs with unstable temperaments, sharply angulated croups, overly long front and rear pasterns, and hocks that are weak and wobbly are poor representations of this working breed. UKC is unwilling to condone the validity of using exaggerated specimens of this breed in a breeding program and, to preserve its health and vibrancy, cautions judges about awarding wins to these representatives."_

I think it is ridiculous when they broadcast an AKC national level show on television, and the commentator mentions that "German Shepherds are used as police dogs" when there is zero chance of any of the dogs exhibited ever being a police dog. Capt. von Stephanitz would roll over in his grave if he saw what some have done to his breed.

Regardless of one's opinion of the UKC, at least they had the fortitude to recognize, and change their standard from what the "show" people have bred for. That is NOT what Capt. von Stephanitz had in mind: a dog that can actually work, and has the physical structure to support it.


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## Liesje

I started K9 Nosework class this past week and there is a woman in my class I see all over at UKC events (she might even be a judge). I talked to her afterwards because they are also adding a UKC version of nosework ("K9 Nosework" is its own organization). I mentioned flyball and she also mentioned she wanted to get a tracking program added as well. So what if our events are not televised but it's nice to be able to make connections like that and feel involved, like I could contribute and not just blow money on entry fees for other people's clubs.


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## onyx'girl

working dogs don't need to get exposure to the masses....they just go about the business and who cares if there is publicity. Though it does help when the ads placed in venues give activities more support.

On the other hand, who wants to line someones pocket for a bit of $ thrown at them...possibly with a bit of control added.


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## AgileGSD

You get competition "wins" at Group level in UKC regardless of what was entered in the other breeds, providing your dog beats at least on other dog. I took Savvy to the UKC show and of course, no other PyrSheps. The first show he placed 4rth in Group and there were only four dogs. No points. The second show he placed 2nd in Group and there were more dogs so he got a competition win. Also got a Total Dog Award for Qing in agility at that show. 

The reason UKC doesn't require you to have competition against your own breed is because they are an organization that has a lot of rare breeds participating. At any UKC show I have gone to, I have seen breeds I never see anywhere else. Sometimes there will be a handful of these dogs owned by the same one or two people. More often than not, it will just be one single entry of the breed though. Breeds I have never met outside of a UKC show and suspect there's maybe a handful in the whole state. If UKC required competition wins against dogs of the same breed, most of these people wouldn't ever bother showing because there's no way that there will be more than one of their breed at any shows they go to. 

I don't think a UKC CH is supposed to be difficult to get. And I don't think that a basic CH really should be difficult to get. It should mean that the dog looks like it's breed and has decent structure with no DQs or serious faults. I hate that so much time and money has to be spent getting an AKC CH but that is the game. AKC only wants a certain % of dogs showing to finish in any given year. That doesn't mean the rest of the dogs showing aren't worthy examples of the breed though. I don't really know when you break it all down, if an AKC CH _really_ means more than a UKC CH. Especially on a breed like a GSD where you have little hope of finishing your own first dog yourself in a timely manner without spending thousands upon thousands of dollars doing it. Getting singles isn't so hard if you have the right type of dog but majors gets to be more of an issue. It's all just a game though really, regardless of venue. There's AKC CHs who really aren't great examples of the breed and UKC CHs that aren't great examples of the breed. A CH means what you think it means I suppose. Some people place uber importance on AKC CHs. I think it's cool and all but far more impressive to me when it's just part of a bigger picture. A CH with upper level titles in other venues is a really nice accomplishment IMO. I finish my dogs with that goal in mind. 

FWIW it's harder to finish a Belgian in UKC than in AKC. Lots of dogs that finish in AKC would never have a shot at a UKC CH or even getting one competition win. In Belgians, the AKC ring allows for far more variation in type than the UKC ring. In UKC all Belgians are judged by breeder-judges, all are given written critiques and get show ratings. They all compete against each other for competition wins and Belgians are not offered at very many UKC shows at all. I like a lot about it but don't really see finishing UKC CHs on any of my dogs unless something changes. I will show in UKC when I can because I think there's value in the critiques and ratings, not because I'm going for a UKC CH. One of my dogs is close and has been for years but I could never get her last competition win (she was RWB at the AKC National a few years ago though) and have sort of given up.


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