# TOUGH LOVE....i dont think its working!



## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

Otto is now a 1 year 7 month old, male wgsd. last time we went to the vet he was around 71lb. was only 2 months ago. probably much lighter now...

I have posted about his picky eating habits before (he was 8 months? at the time). we tried "tough love" on him during that time but had to stop because he got puppy mange. now since hes older, and much healthier...we reintroduced "tough love". hes always been very picky, and not a big eater. but yes he will accept cookies, biscuits, treats...etc. ive tried practically every brand, every flavor and the results are always the same. i would manage to find a flavor, or brand he seems to respond to and he will still be annoyingly bored or picky. additives do not work. none. ive tried it all. i do not want to add canned food to his diet. his kibble is expensive enough! we would give him an all raw diet but we really dont have the freezer for this. 

we have been doing tough love for 2 weeks now. he is currently on Mulligans Stew (lamb). we give him 2 cups, once a day. it is near impossible to get him to eat during the day. yes i am aware of bloat but i need him to eat! the problem im having is i dont think "tough love" is actually working. he does not consistently finish his food. one day he may finish the bowl, then the next day he will leave behind half a cup. (he has a strange habit of leaving behind about half a cup). its extremely inconsistant. ever since we started tough love, he hasnt gotten any treats or goodies. the most he gets is an antler (been non stop raining for a week straight...needed something to help relieve his anxiety)...and he has a bad habit of ripping and eating doll fur. he doesnt chew rubber chews. we put the food down for 15 min. 

should i continue with tough love? im afraid that once i reintroduce treats he will become extremely picky again. there has been times where he barely touches his food. or even put 2-3 kibble in his mouth and spit it back out (its like hes trying to make me mad). we dont even treat him much (before tough love). treats are almost always for training. and the treats are pea sized. im at my wits end. any tips, or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I have had a picky GSD eater and I KNOW from my experience that using 'tough love' was a load of crap for my dog. She would, in fact, just lose weight rather than eat her food. 

Really. 

She didn't die, but she lost at least 5 pounds and was lean to start with. So instead of listening to everyone (who BTW turned out to have good eaters so didn't really understand....) with the 'tough love' outlook................ I used my own brain.

I found a good well rounded kibble I could afford. And knew she needed to eat at least 2 cups of that a day. 

NEVER could I give her one huge meal, just looking at a mass of food seemed to overwhelm and turn her off. So I knew I had to give her an am and pm feeding with the 1 cup of dog food kibble.

Then, to get her to start eating, I need to mix 'something' in with her kibble. I had to play with this initially cause I want the least amount of whatever I could use because it's the kibble she needed to finish. Almost always PEOPLE FOOD was a winner! So a few tablespoons of leftover spagetti, mixed with water to make a gravy to coat everything is good. Or mac/cheese. Or some meat. Or mashed potatoes.... or or or....

Key was just a few tablespoons of the 'whatever' PLUS the water. Because then all the kibble was coated and everything got eaten.

In a pinch, I also always looked out in the cat food aisle for the canned cat food sales. The small tuna can sized ones work fine and come in a HUGE variety (important to have different flavors with my dog). I didn't care if it was the cheapest cat crap food on sale BECAUSE I only used about 1/4 can (or a bit more if needed) PLUS the water with the KIBBLE! And it's the dog food kibble that has all the nutrition in it. Canned cat food was ideal for the variety available. Great price. Cans are easy to put plastic lid on to store in the fridge between meals. Dog loved it!

Cats are very picky eaters, so the manufacturers know they have to tempt them and make the food lovely and smelly as well as taste good. That also worked with my dog.

GOOD LUCK! Figure out what works for your dog, keeping in mind that you want to put in the least amount of the added 'whatever' to the kibble so the vast amount of calories and nutrition are from the dog food kibble.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I found that mixing in a little cottage cheese does the trick for my picky eater. A couple other things that work are sprinkling on some parmesan cheese or romano. For dogs, like people, variety is the spice of life. I have stayed away from canned food because my wife can't stand the smell of it. Also, I feed Orijen so I know that she is getting all she needs as far as nourishment. There are many other excellent dog foods as well.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I crumble some freeze dried liver over Max's kibble. Good idea to use cheese- Max loves cheese- I will try that for variety!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Off the food bit a little - but how are his stools?

Some things to consider - 
Parasites/worms
SIBO/EPI
Food allergies

Unlike us  dogs are smart enough not to eat things that cause them discomfort - so it is possible there is an ingredient that your dog is reacting to? 

Maybe!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My GSD can be picky sometimes, a new experience for me. My previous dogs would always inhale whatever was in their bowl, and my mixed breed will eat anything! I feed raw, so a bit of a challenge to "improve" the diet! but on Raw, especially important that he eats a good variety of food. He has also refused foods that he has eaten with gusto in the past. 

With kibble, I would do as MRL suggested, find something he really likes, mix in a bit, and always moisten the kibble for a nicer taste and feel. You said you have tried additives - have you tried really strong smelly/tasty stuff, like canned tuna, canned sardines, raw liver, a dab of cream? Mix it all in? Start with a little bit of kibble in his bowl, extra special smelly/tasty stuff in generous amounts - then gradually increase the kibble, decrease the special foods. 

Also to get my dog to eat new foods, pairing it with something he has eaten in the past seems to help. Whole giant frozen sardines he didn't touch, even though he had eaten other types of frozen fish in the past. I do the tough love too - you get 15-20 minutes in the crate with your fish, if you don't eat it, too bad! Back in the freezer it goes. After the second day of him ignoring the fish (yet it had a strong fish smell!), I gave him a piece of frozen fish that I knew he liked, WITH the same old frozen sardine, and bingo! All gone! 

Then I got a Turkey on sale, and Mr. Picky now did not want any turkey, when in the past, it has always been gobbled up. So after a couple days of flinging turkey pieces around in his crate but not eating it, I smeared his turkey with liver, and said turkey is going fast! I only had to do the smear thing once, he ate the turkey "neat" after that. 

If you are bothered by the smell of canned dog/cat food, look into cans of people food that you can mix in with the kibble to entice your dog. A can of potato beef stew? Just a couple of tablespoons might do it, and a whole can would last you a few meals. '

Hope you find something that will work for you guys, good luck!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Jax was like that as well. The tough love thing did nothing for him either. I found myself feeding him cheese cubes for treats just to get enough calories into him so that he didn't lose weight. I tried a pure diet of Nature's Variety raw patties which were freezer friendly because I have no freezer space either and after 2 weeks of feeding him those, I switched back to half kibble... He seemed to have gotten into the "habit" of eating and is now a perfect eater 
I don't know if it was just coincidence or it really was the food but he seems to enjoy eating now.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> Jax was like that as well. The tough love thing did nothing for him either. I found myself feeding him cheese cubes for treats just to get enough calories into him so that he didn't lose weight. I tried a pure diet of Nature's Variety raw patties which were freezer friendly because I have no freezer space either and after 2 weeks of feeding him those, I switched back to half kibble... He seemed to have gotten into the "habit" of eating and is now a perfect eater
> I don't know if it was just coincidence or it really was the food but he seems to enjoy eating now.


Picky eating is not at all strange for young intact males. The hormone cycles will pretty much tell the dog when to eat and not to eat. Unless they are spoiled with little feeding games, this stops at about age 3.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

sable123 said:


> Picky eating is not at all strange for young intact males. The hormone cycles will pretty much tell the dog when to eat and not to eat. Unless they are spoiled with little feeding games, this stops at about age 3.


That is very interesting!! That would account for some of Gryffon's behaviour too.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> That is very interesting!! That would account for some of Gryffon's behaviour too.


The will also not eat if they sense a female in season. Could be miles away too.
Don't sweat it. This behavior starts about 9 months.

If having a thin intact males bothers you, feed a performance or working food not a grain-free or raw. These foods will make a hard keeper worse.

These are what I call 30/20's but they can be plus that on both sides.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

H15A5H1 said:


> Otto is now a 1 year 7 month old, male wgsd. last time we went to the vet he was around 71lb. was only 2 months ago. probably much lighter now...
> 
> I have posted about his picky eating habits before (he was 8 months? at the time). we tried "tough love" on him during that time but had to stop because he got puppy mange. now since hes older, and much healthier...we reintroduced "tough love". hes always been very picky, and not a big eater. but yes he will accept cookies, biscuits, treats...etc. ive tried practically every brand, every flavor and the results are always the same. i would manage to find a flavor, or brand he seems to respond to and he will still be annoyingly bored or picky. additives do not work. none. ive tried it all. i do not want to add canned food to his diet. his kibble is expensive enough! we would give him an all raw diet but we really dont have the freezer for this.
> 
> ...


Mulligan Stew is very bland, If you want him to eat use something with 20% fat.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think a lot of GSDs are picky due to medical reasons, I am very against the "tough love" theory....


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## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

hey everyone, thanks for your posts.

as far as his health, he is generally in great health. we asked the vet about his weight and the vet didnt have any problems with it. just concluded he is picky. his stool looks good. no loose stools, or anything too gross. 

additives just dont seem to work on this guy. the first day or 2 it may work, but after that its back to being bored or picky. heres a list of what i have tried:

warm water
chicken broth
warm chicken broth
parmesan cheese
liver powder (i think it was called "nupro")
dog cookie crumbs

he will try to pick out the good stuff and eat around the kibble. 

feeding him people food is out of the question.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

maybe your dog doesn't like what you're
feeding him.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

H15A5H1 said:


> as far as his health, he is generally in great health. we asked the vet about his weight and the vet didnt have any problems with it. just concluded he is picky. his stool looks good. no loose stools, or anything too gross.


There is more to health than what your vet can see in this type of checkup...I wouldn't be too over-confident.





> additives just dont seem to work on this guy. the first day or 2 it may work, but after that its back to being bored or picky.


If the food isn't right, or is making your dog feel bad, no amount of additives will cover that up. Again, this most likely isn't about being bored or picky, this is mostly likely a sensitive digestive system at work. After all, you have a GSD.





> ....feeding him people food is out of the question.


I'm sorry to hear that


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm not sure what kind of help you want from us? 

I have had picky eaters in the past and it really has been one of two things, both of which have been mentioned in this thread:

1) There was an undiagnosed digestive problem.

2) The dog didn't really like plain kibble.

My first dog was always a picky eater and I found out late in her life that she had some pretty serious digestive problems. Once I switched her to homemade food about 90% of the problems disappeared and she ate with great gusto! 

I am not sure what your objection to people food is. I feed my animals people food all of the time and it has not made any of them into monsters. In fact, I can leave a bowl of my food on the floor right in front of them and leave the room and they will not touch it. 

If you can get over your aversion to canned food and/or people food then here's what I would try:

Merrick canned food -- Dogs love this stuff. You can mix in a couple of tablespoons with a little water. Adding this to your dog's food will cost you about $6/month. 

Canned salmon or mackarel. A little goes a long way with this smelly stuff. 

Preprepared raw. Rafi eats Bravo raw and loves it. 

Cottage Cheese (mixed in well)

They are also now selling freeze dried raw and a little goes a long way. My dog goes NUTS for the stuff. I think it would be pretty easy to make into a gravy. 

So I'm basically saying the same thing as everyone else...


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## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

i was hoping there was some tip or suggestion i havent heard, that could work. we always try to sample brands and flavors before buying a bag. if he seems to show some interest, we purchase a bag. he liked what we are currently feeding him, but hes just bored of it now. so i dont think its hurting his digestion track in any way. all the brands and flavors cant possibly be hurting him....there were only a few that didnt go well with him when he was younger (wasnt as picky...he was pretty malnourished when we got him so he ate whatever we put down in the early days). innova puppy and puppy wellness. those seemed to give him really bad stool. and he absolutely hated innova. this is when we started noticing his pickiness. 

i rarely cook for myself...let alone my dog. so preparing him a home cooked meal doesnt really fit my current lifestyle. that is why people food = out of the question. as far as canned food + kibble, i have a problem with it because for the price for both, i might as well be feeding him an all raw diet!

as frustrated as i am, thanks everyone for your comments. i appreciate it. i guess there isnt much i can do about his eating habits. ill just have to live with it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

H15A5H1 said:


> innova puppy and puppy wellness. those seemed to give him really bad stool. and he absolutely hated innova. this is when we started noticing his pickiness.


This sounds like a combination of food issues, and a digestive tract that has been assaulted. 

I would stick with a food that has a single protein and a single carb source for right now, or on the flip side I would go with grain free like Orijen if you haven't tried it. I would add probiotics and l-glutamine. I would add a bit of quality canned food with the kibble, which brings moisture and a different quality of meat into the diet.


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## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

LisaT said:


> This sounds like a combination of food issues, and a digestive tract that has been assaulted.
> 
> I would stick with a food that has a single protein and a single carb source for right now, or on the flip side I would go with grain free like Orijen if you haven't tried it. I would add probiotics and l-glutamine. I would add a bit of quality canned food with the kibble, which brings moisture and a different quality of meat into the diet.


I find it strange that you would so quickly jump to saying he has an assaulted digestive system . . .
he has been on a quality kibble grain-free diet before... to name a few, taste of the wild, earthborn primitive grainfree, great life grainfree, orijen, etc. he would eat all of those at first, but eventually would get bored of the food and not want to eat them consistently anymore. the only reason we switched back to grainbased diet was to put some weight on him, which did work while he was eating it. we have tried probiotics and enzymes before as well. And also, he had weekly proportioned RAW meals. He eats very well. He never has diahhrea or loose stools, EVER. The only time he had that was when we just got him from the shelter at 6months. 

I know for a fact that he will eat canned food. Canned food mixed with kibble probably would work too. But I have noticed him picking the canned food out of the kibble. But, buying both canned and quality kibble is just too much money for me. That is why we went with the TOUGH LOVE method to fix his pickiness.

From the responses I have seen so far on this thread, seems like most of you just gave in to whatever your dog wants to eat. And that TOUGH LOVE doesnt really work with every dog. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding.

At this point, I am seriously considering an all RAW diet for him.. as that is the only thing he will completely devour at the sight of it. Looking to buy a small freezer to house all the raw meat. -_-


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I'll probably be the odd man out here, but have you tried free feeding? I know there's a common belief that dogs need to eat when you tell them to eat, but really...why? 

Try putting out the kibble in the morning and watch to see through the day if and when he eats and how much. Some dogs do self regulate how much they eat, I know both of ours do. They aren't overweight and they're both healthy. (she's 68lbs he's 78lbs give or take a pound)

You will find, (if you free feed) that he'll more than likely really only eat a few times a day, he won't be eating all day long. (grazing as some people say) The difference is, he'll eat when he's hungry, not when you think he should be hungry.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Free feeding doesn't necessarily mean an overweight dog. You could just put out the maximum daily amount for your dog and they can eat when they like if that works for them. 
If your dog sprouts an extra eyeball because of it, you can deal with that later


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> If your dog sprouts an extra eyeball because of it, you can deal with that later


ROFL! Is that what I'm seeing on Annie's forehead???


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## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I'll probably be the odd man out here, but have you tried free feeding? I know there's a common belief that dogs need to eat when you tell them to eat, but really...why?
> 
> Try putting out the kibble in the morning and watch to see through the day if and when he eats and how much. Some dogs do self regulate how much they eat, I know both of ours do. They aren't overweight and they're both healthy. (she's 68lbs he's 78lbs give or take a pound)
> 
> You will find, (if you free feed) that he'll more than likely really only eat a few times a day, he won't be eating all day long. (grazing as some people say) The difference is, he'll eat when he's hungry, not when you think he should be hungry.


Free feeding was what we did originally. We have always done that in the beginning. The problem with free feeding is that he would not touch the food for the entire day because of his pickiness. The most he would eat would be half a cup.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

H15A5H1 said:


> From the responses I have seen so far on this thread, seems like most of you just gave in to whatever your dog wants to eat. And that TOUGH LOVE doesnt really work with every dog. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding.


No, it isn't about "giving in". It's about not starving your dog and forcing a food on the dog that isn't right for the dog because the human involved is being dogmatic about the feeding.

About the assault, that wasn't an assumption, but based on what the innova did to his system, from your own words. He hasn't recovered from that. And for some dogs, any kibble period is an assault to their digestive system.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If you think about it in human terms, which is often easier to understand...

Making the assumption that yes, we share similar systems in that we react to things...

If oats make me sick (they do) and I eat foods that aren't plain old oats but have oats in them, after I eat them I am going to feel bloated, tired, uncomfortable. For me, if I know I don't tolerate oats, I say oh, those cookies had oats so therefore, they made me sick. 

But if I don't realize it's the oats, and I eat a bunch of different foods, all that look like they should be okay, but all having oats, I am going to get sick. And it may take a while for me to figure it out that it's the oats, not the chocolate chips, not the maple syrup, not the nuts. 

In the meantime, because I am not as smart as a dog, I am going to keep eating through the discomfort. The dog says wow, this makes me feel bad, I am going to stop eating and just eat enough to support my caloric needs. Well, it may not be a thought but it's the survival instinct. 

So with dogs we can do an elimination diet. Start with something simple like California Natural - rice and chicken or rice and herring or whatever. Or a sweet potato and meat food of some kind. Or, cut to the chase and check for food allergies if that's possible. 

IF it's not a sensitivity to an ingredient in the food and there is something else going on...IBD...whatever - someone else can chime in and hopefully add to what I am getting at because I have lost my train of thought!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

I also have a picky eater ( or did have a picky eater) We tried Wellness Orijen and also started mixing cans(Merrick) and nothing worked.Now we are feeding Raw and are having great success!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

H15A5H1 said:


> hey everyone, thanks for your posts.
> 
> warm water
> chicken broth
> ...


Sorry you didn't get a chance to read my post above. I'll try to state some of it again. None of the additives you mentioned (maybe the Nupro for some of the meals?) would have made my dog (btw she was a female) eat her meal either most of the time. 

First of all, the Old Wive's Tale about 'no people food' should be looked at. It's the AMOUNT and type of people food that matters. Not that 'all people food is evil'. Heck, not saying I'd feed him a box of Chocolate DevilDogs, but MEAT that I ate. Or mac/cheese that I ate. Or lasgne...or or or .

And I am NOT saying to feed our dogs only human food. I needed the LEAST amount of 'whatever' added WITH WATER 

THE WATER IS IMPORTANT TO MAKE A GRAVY.....................

When this 'gravy' covers all the kibble, which is the healthy nutritional stuff we want our dogs to eat with the 'whatever' that gets them eating....

CANNED CAT FOOD

This really works. There really are a huge amount of different flavors. The cans are small to store in the fridge and I only needed about 1/3 of a can of cat food with water (for the gravy) mixed with the kibble. 

BTW, if you start up training with treats, I've found that PEOPLE food works best for this too. Any cut up meat, cheese, tortellini's, pizza, string cheese, NOT DOG TREATS generally. Least for my dogs.

List of Reinforcers

Clicker Dog Training | Getting Started Clicker Training | Karen Pryor | Puppy


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