# Some observations - is it in the lines



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok - the nice thing about a 9 year old dog is that there are no new dreams or aspirations. I have what I have and I just thought it may be a fun pedigree to dissect.

All flaws are on the table - some from me, some from genetics I would guess.

cyra vom alyeska - German Shepherd Dog

Cyra is my 9 year old female and observing the differences between her and my other dogs

Cyra: Hyper, spinning, airsnapping, chewy on a tug, thrashes side to side, not calm, not focused, never has been. Always has been very distractable. Very intense little dog though. Dog agression (I control her but I do not trust her-when the dog is in her pack she is fine-she wanted to eat Beau the first 2 weeks I got him [but I was prepared and the intros were slow] and then she fast became his "bud"). Absolutely rock solid around small kids. She enjoys all people; actually she is very social to a fault. I never have felt any particular bond with her. We care for her, enjoy her antics, Shake our head and sigh (she has severe HD which she is not aware of). She does very snappy obedience but is by no means an obedient dog  

I already see in Beau a, much more focus even as a 6.5 month old puppy. I think I will have to earn his respect but when I ensure it is there will have a solid ally. I never needed to earn Grim's respect. Grim is very handler soft and worships the air that I breathe and the ground I walk on. Grim has good concentration and work ethic. Beau is so focused when he is after something (like searching for a ball) it is eerie.

but........actually........what *DO* you see in Cyra's pedigree? It is just a fun question - there are some well known oldies in her pedigree who are certainly buried in more recent dogs.


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

From Crok you get lots of prey drive and hardness and aggression--and dog aggression. Can get an "insufficiency" of pack drive (dog/handler relationship)--a dog who is not naturally obedient or respectful of the handler.

In her pedigree, I would have hoped that the Maneiche would compensate for the Crok. 

You also can get a dominant/sharp handler-resistant type of dog from Fax.

Blacky v Neuen Lande himself had beautiful obedience and nearly got a perfect 100-100-100 his second time in the BSP in 1993, but he crumbled in the protection. I was told that he was a dog who had been so overtuned to get the obedience and tracking perfect that he couldn't take the pressure. I've heard other stories of him having nerve problems in the stadium crowds. All the same, he was an amazing working dog and while I wouldn't want to linebreed on him, I do think he brings many good things to a pedigree. You can see his performance record here: Blacky vom Neuen Lande - working-dog.eu 

The lack of focus... I don't know where that comes from. 

Her father's half brother, Asko, (same mom, different dad) has a bit of a reputation of adding a bit of the crazy -- but I've never heard speculation on where it comes from.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Maybe the term is not focus. When *she* wants something she is very intent on it and the rest of the world disappears, but it has got to be something SHE wants - not something YOU want her to do, if that makes sense. It is the whole partnership thing.

She is the one who chased a goat through a fully charged cattle fence, twitched when she took the shock and kept on after it as though nothing happened.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gildo was a very social dog. He was a dream family dog in the house. Very good around kids and literally babysat us many times. People called him crazy, too much and nasty, little did they know how great of a family dog he was. 
He was kept with four other intact males, Olko vom Baerenfang and Gildo were together from the beginning till the end. Gild was buried in the backyard of the house in Mannheim by the way. He went pretty much any place with us. On Vacation in Denmark, Switzerland, Austria etc.


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Maybe the term is not focus. When *she* wants something she is very intent on it and the rest of the world disappears, but it has got to be something SHE wants - not something YOU want her to do, if that makes sense. It is the whole partnership thing.
> 
> She is the one who chased a goat through a fully charged cattle fence, twitched when she took the shock and kept on after it as though nothing happened.


Sounds like a Crok granddaughter that belongs to a friend of mine. She's now 11+ years old, worked as a mobility service dog, pulled a wheelchair, etc. HARD HARD dog, very high drive. Worked in schutzhund but had to stop b/c she would bite anywhere, not just the sleeve and was thinking about aggression toward the person holding her line (because the owner was unable to bc of a back injury). No natural obedience--even now, as an old dog, will choose to do the opposite of what asked. Wicked smart--as in she schemes and gets into trouble. She can get out of almost any crate, can undo latches and clips. At the vet following a surgery, woke up from sedation, let herself out of the crate, let all the other dogs out. Owner had told them they had to use a padlock on the door, but the assistants hadn't done it b/c she was drugged. Very dog aggressive, mild HD.


----------



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Wicked smart--as in she schemes and gets into trouble. She can get out of almost any crate, can undo latches and clips. At the vet following a surgery, woke up from sedation, let herself out of the crate, let all the other dogs out. Owner had told them they had to use a padlock on the door, but the assistants hadn't done it b/c she was drugged.


That sounds like my first GSD - she was a Jalk Lindenhalle granddaughter. Super smart but used her brains against you, escape artist, she once let herself out of her crate and Djenga out of the kitchen and opened the front door of our apartment door so they could go exploring...

Although she was a very soft dog and overly sharp with people so different in that aspect.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cyra is not to be trusted around small animals. When I was trying to work her, I had it under control but now she keeps the yard clear of critters. Richard Shook took her for me for about a month when I broke my ankle in 2005. She caught one of his pigeons in flight and dispatched it. He laughed about it.

At least she is not an escape artist. [Unless we count the time we pulled her off the fence hanging upside down from a wire-I will give her this, she has never tried to bite me when I have extricated her from the pickles she got herself into] She is smart though. Grim was so much easier to train because he just wants to make me happy. She wants to reinvent the wheel and was always trying to change up the game.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gildo brought a lot of herding instinct but he also went hunting for small prey. Especially rabbits.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Don't tell Beau that; he has some Gildo too.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No worries, I won't. ...._pssst....Beau...did you year? _


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Familar with Fado progeny....big time drive, really too much for my tastes, and can possess a hardness that many can't handle. I trained with person who had Fado son that by two he had to get rid of dog because he was too much dog. Dog went to police but was too handler aggressive for PD. Of course all Fado progeny aren't like this, but this owner had put a Sch 3 on a previous dog from a puppy and he got this dog as a puppy but could never get control. To me there is a thing as too strong, when strength of dog overrides biddability. I personally do not care for dogs that are not biddable....this pedigree though filled with many nice dogs singularly, would not be one that would interest me.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL, now I feel good about being able to manage her. No, not a dog I would ever choose again. Zero signs of handler aggression but (1) she is a female and (2) could be how, having that concern from the get-go I managed her properly.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I owned a daughter out of the full sister to Cyra's dam. She was nothing like you are describing. Very biddable, very much into me. Excellent obedience, exceptional tracking ability, no dog aggression. She was not a love everyone type of dog, but was fine around other people in a social setting. You didn't want to walk into my house uninvited. Small, athletic, traveled well. She had good bitework, but at the time we didn't have the experience to work her. 

She had a much different sire line so what you see in your bitch may very well be the cross. From my experience with Asko Lutter (not Fado, but his 1/2 brother) you had to be very careful the sort of bitches you brought to him. Nerves have to be impeccable or you can get some not so nice dogs. What I have learned about the Maineiche lines is they can bring some sharpness and aggression. Your female very well just may be the results of a lack of balance in the breeding. So not so much the lines as how they were combined. 

What is Beau's pedigree? I don't remember.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

For Cyra - different breeder, different dogs.  The person who owned the full sister has a wealth of experience.

Beau is:
Beau von den Alten Bergen - German Shepherd Dog

He is definitely pretty hard, and going through some pushiness right now but he seems to have a great deal of self-control and rock solid nerves. very social, but would expect that I would think at his age...oh Sumo is OFA good not excellent and Reza is OFA good...(I checked at OFA)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

really not a good combination.

Maineiche though is a source of active aggression something which the breed needs and lacks.

I love the Maineiche blood that I introduced into my program through Dix -- carmspack leroy - German Shepherd Dog
That male , LeRoy was trained off lead , highly highly biddable , normal conversational tone , praise - no clicker , treating bag of tricks, natural desire to work and to comply -- sweet teddy bear of a dog - everyone loved him -- great looks and conformation . No bad behaviour barking , spinning , digging. Mr Cool when not working. 
Totally reliable and dependable. Would take him out to the mondio club and would heel him behind a circle of ring agitation , total self control -- it did not involve him or me and so he minded his own business . We did it off lead . 
We did three man agitation with props and things flying , he never shirked going in there and knew which fire to put out first .
Seconds later he would be in the parking lot where my 3 year old granddaughter was playing with her baby friends, children of other club members. He would lick the sweaty chubby arms of the baby in the stroller. He adored children and tolerated nose tweaking. 

God I miss that dog --- and Kilo --- same thing (but not Maineiche). The mission was to keep adding depth to old working herding lines which Maineiche conserved.

I do have a dog that is very similar -- Kilo looks , LeRoy character -- long coat bi colour -- will have to x ray him soon for his certification -- 
His sire Cubby was a narcotic dog working in the school system - same thing rock solid , great in the chaos of young kids being young kids -- representing MATHIAS the long coat bicolour with the pedigree of his brothe Stark who was a certified dual police service dog with Buffalo PD at just over one year of age Carmspack Stark - German Shepherd Dog

I think in the Cyra pedigree Crok plays a large part in the temperament . Have heard lots of comments about dog being intolerant to handler ordering and responding by coming up the leash - handler aggression. Can't recall specifically which litter -- pretty sure it was the F litter that is Cyra's dam line - where someone was driving with dog in passenger seat and without provocation dog attacked driver . 
I think Lee ms Wolfstraum, who uses and likes Maineiche might have a similar experience to mine.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is old news that both of Cyra's uncles were handler aggressive.
I gather it is a combination of nature and nurture.

I had also heard that Crok's position in a pedigree may play a role [Males with Crok on male tail line] But I do not have the knowledge to know if that is so or not. She has NEVER showed any signs whatsoever of human agression, even the desirable kind. Dogs are a different story but she is snarky, not a killer and I think it is more nerve based. She has been 100% reliable with Toby, then Grim and now Beau (once she got past intro period with Grim and Beau)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gildo was not a handler soft dog either. It could just be the overal combination. Do you know how the littermates have turned out?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Old subject and now an old dog. 

I have never seen dogs from Fado Lutter but I have from Asko and years ago from the lines behind him. Saw and worked dogs that were more sharp from those lines. 

Knowing what I know of those dogs and the dogs coming from Maineiche,( because I owned more than one dog from that kennel and worked dogs as the helper from those lines years ago), I probably would not have chosen this male for Fly, ( sister of the mother). Fly was a very social, extremely obedient, high prey drive dog. Not sure what Finness was like but I didn't get the impression she was much different. 

I didn't see tons of aggression in Fly but there was enough of it. I considered her to be a dog that would benefit from a very solid male with very strong nerves from lines that produced those things. Best results came from a breeding with older bloodlines known for that and that is the line I have kept and will continue with from her. Her grandkids and great grand kids are very nice dogs and they would never dream of biting their handler. Fly never did either.

I always wonder what people are saying about the Maineiche dogs. Not saying these were bad dogs at all but most had a strong dose of aggression. I do not view that line as something that the herding dogs would bring...meaning the old Kirchental dogs going back to Blanka. I view that as a line for fight drive and power. They are not dogs for everyone IMO but I will say this. The dogs I have owned with strong fight drive were some of the most obedient dogs I have ever owned. Not sure I am willing to say that is the case with the Maineiche dogs but it could be, maybe depending on the handler.

I am also starting to wonder if people understand the line descending back to Deika. People are enamored by her accomplishments but Dieter mentions her in an article that I think Claudia Romard has on her web site. He describes the dog and for me, this is a different kind of dog. Not saying she was a bad dog and I had a very solid daughter of hers, just that how she was combined needed to be carefully considered. 
Like I said, I viewed that line as needing something very solid without quite so much drive. Ulla ,(Deika daughter), in her behavior, could fool you because she was so calm and bomb proof but I remember one female out of her who simply was too much, an escape artist and more dog than most wanted to deal with. I think this is produced more often in the females from this line. The males were quite solid and when I used them with my older lines, I got very good results. Many times, I will take a line and move it to the top of the pedigree vs using the females. I actually have a reason for doing that based on nothing other than what I have seen happen when I have. 

Funny thing about Fly, Crok was the least of my concerns. I would not have built/doubled up on that line but it was not really what stood out. One thing I realize is that I am a different kind of handler than many people are nowadays. My dogs know who I am. I am the leader, so, I think I do not experience some of the problems that other people do with the same bloodlines.

I have a young male now who has Fly coming through the top of the pedigree . He is everything you want to see in a GSD except that he is smaller than I would like. Great around people but very protective when it is appropriate. Active aggression and fight drive like I have not seen very much in the breed in the last few years. Extremely trainable and easy to handle. 

It is always about the combination and sometimes, you have to get a little down the road to get what you were looking for. The idea that you always get exactly what you are looking for in each litter is ...well.....not reality, although many would like you to believe that is the case.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Anne, I saw this pedigree as a combination of a lot of dogs that maybe weren't complimentary, though good in their own right.


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

It's a really good example, though, of how you don't always know what's going to come through in the puppies.

The elements are there--but what is going to win out and form the personality/temperament of the puppies? Looking back with our 20/20 hindsight we can show what likely comes from where--but looking forward, we might have chosen to emphasize the positives. Like maybe this would produce a strong male with a lot of hardness and strength and a good balance of prey and aggression, maybe a bit heavy on the aggression.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jocoyn said:


> For Cyra - different breeder, different dogs.  The person who owned the full sister has a wealth of experience.


 
Yes, that is VERY true.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I remember Beau's pedigree now because we talked about it since I knew his great grandmother.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I actually posted it because I am past getting feelings hurt and I have learned some things from living with working line dogs - more than then. It is old stuff

But I figured it was a good example of how you really have to know (with some level of knowledge) how the combinations will work and, I think, the actual parents....and I am not sure the actual parents were known by the breeder before a selection was made as Finesse was imported already bred.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think Christine hits on a good point that goes into the depth of pedigree reading. That's the aspect of whether the positives or the negatives will dominate in the progeny. This is where it is very difficult to explain to new people how you came to conclusions about a breeding or pedigree so that they can understand. It takes the knowledge of how strongly many lines/dogs tend to throw certain traits, it takes knowing when you have the nervebase to undergird the build up of aggression or prey drive, or other elements. It takes knowing that when you look at a breeding you are trying to come with up with what" the most" of the litter will possess. Because you will have an alpha dog or two, maybe; and you will have drivier or less drivey dogs and you will have pups with less strength that will come from the breeding. The art is to get a concensus on what is going to come through. What are key elements that are going to combine in most of the progeny. Are the two parents being used typical of their lines or atypical. Are you linebreeding two dogs with say Crok in the first 4 generations, who happen to be social butterflys, and then wonder why you got a couple pups that had aggression nothing like the parents. It is as much an art as science, and then luck factors in bigtime with how the genes combine. So many things to consider, it practically impossible to explain to newer person rationally....why? because there will be exceptions that will pop up or factor in that appear to make the thinking faulty. Oh Well...lol


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Gildo was a very social dog. He was a dream family dog in the house. Very good around kids and literally babysat us many times. People called him crazy, too much and nasty, little did they know how great of a family dog he was.
> He was kept with four other intact males, Olko vom Baerenfang and Gildo were together from the beginning till the end. Gild was buried in the backyard of the house in Mannheim by the way. He went pretty much any place with us. On Vacation in Denmark, Switzerland, Austria etc.


Are you referring to Gildo Vom Korbelbach? If so, that is pretty cool!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes Anne. In the case of the Maineiche there is some craft as to the breeding program. Strong maternal lines coming in from Frei Gugge (maternal burg Fasanental - same as shared by DDR dogs (norbert - said to be among best herding dogs ever) and the Lierbergs (Wurtemberg and Swabian herding), herding through multiple use of Marko Cellerland who was well enough appreciated to be used by haus Knufken (herding) and by Kirschental (Nimi is one) Marko's son Kai Silberbrand to Gitta and Gundi Kirschental. Other Marko son used by Kirschental .
Also on the Maineiche - Racket - Pirol Kirschental .

I think it is good planning with goal in sight. Old style dogs with high social / active aggression with tremendous desire to work and easy trainability, good compliance, bright , repeat easy trainability. My experience through 4 generations now building on a theme - the latest through Cubby x Carmina Sitting Bull. Peaceful dogs with no apparent aggression - but strong and powerful in fight , every work done with great determination.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

robk said:


> Are you referring to Gildo Vom Korbelbach? If so, that is pretty cool!


Yes, Gildo vom Koerbelbach


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> _It takes knowing that when you look at a breeding you are trying to come with up with what" the most" of the litter will possess. Because you will have an alpha dog or two, maybe; and you will have drivier or less drivey dogs and you will have pups with less strength that will come from the breeding. The art is to get a concensus on what is going to come through. What are key elements that are going to combine in most of the progeny. Are the two parents being used typical of their lines or atypical. Are you linebreeding two dogs with say Crok in the first 4 generations, who happen to be social butterflys, and then wonder why you got a couple pups that had aggression nothing like the parents. *It is as much an art as science, and then luck factors in bigtime with how the genes combine. So many things to consider, it practically impossible to explain to newer person rationally....why? because there will be exceptions that will pop up or factor in that appear to make the thinking faulty. Oh Well...lol*_


This about sums it up ...... oh well .........


----------

