# Vom Ron German Shepherds? Anyone familiar?



## Jhoovr (Jan 16, 2009)

http://vomrongermanshepherds.com

Please help me if you are familiar with Joan or even just to eval the website. We are seriously considering a pup from her.
Thank You,
Julie


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

I would pass. No health certs, no titles. Keep looking!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This link should be made a sticky! What to look for in a reputable breeder:
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/breeder.htm


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I would like to see more information about their dogs on their site, not just photos. What titles do they have? Obviously, they're working their dogs to some extent. What health certifications? Hip and elbow X-rays? I don't see why folks don't post these things on their sites if they want people to consider them as breeders...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would also want to see pedigrees on their dogs, not just call names and photos. There really isn't enough critical info on their site to comment one way or the other. It is impossible to research on you own into the health and temperament and other traits in bloodlines without that information. Without knowing the registered names of the dogs there is no way to gather any information about the dogs other than what the breeder offers. Not saying they are or aren't truthful in what they say about their dogs, but it's a good idea to always be skeptical and verify info with outside sources.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Here is Ajsa's page (says Sch2).... http://www.vomrongermanshepherds.com/gallery.php?gallery=1&fullname=1
and Axel's OFA.... http://offa.org/results.html?all=axel+vom+ron
so some might be titled. Might be best to ask the breeder.

Website is just weird.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would call the people and discuss the dogs, I see a lot more that I like than what I don't like. The one pedigree I saw was basically sound(Asja), though I would like to see strong hip producing dogs on the sire regardless of Asja having OFA or not. I will say that from looking at the pics on the site, I have less concern with temp. and functionality with this site than I would with a site with dogs OFA, Eye cerf., cardiac workup, etc. and the dogs were just laying there looking at me with no titles. To me the working of their dogs shows me that they don't have temp. flaws to "hide". I never go by a website alone but they definitely would be people I would talk to if you like their type of dog.JMO


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## Kirsten_C (Apr 9, 2009)

Just for future reference, does anyone recommend a reputable breeder from Texas?


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## lovegsds (Mar 30, 2011)

I bought a puppy from them, initially as a pet. I then found a trainer that got me into dog sport. 

** Rest removed by Admin. Please PM poster if you want more information. **


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Kirsten_C said:


> Just for future reference, does anyone recommend a reputable breeder from Texas?


You should probably start a new thread about this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would pass. 

On the our dogs page, they do mention hips and elbows, but only the first dog has a title of any sort, that is SchHII, which is good. 

But they talk a great game about being what Max had in mind, but their is no proof that they are putting their money where their mouth is. 

They are breeding working line dogs to Capt. Max's standards, and touting schutzhund and temperament, they need to have something to show for it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Contracts are really just a way for breeders to protect themselves. I don't put a lot of stock into them. 
There are very few, that would make it right, and protecting their reputation and kennel name should have them doing so, but paying thousands of dollars to reimburse the owner or pay for surgery to correct HD or ED is beyond what many would do.
Euth option for the big commercial kennels should be put into the contract as obviously thats what would happen if a pup was returned/replaced.
I'm sorry your pup has ED it is the luck of the draw, unfortunately. 
If my pup had ED or HD and I bought him specifically for sportwork, I think I would just take my lumps and try to make the best life possible for him instead of fighting the breeder for a replacement or re-imbursement....though a bit of re-imbursement on the purchase price would be nice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There was a very good news radio interview that I caught this afternoon while driving around getting stuff done today. They were talking about the steep rise in veterinary fees in the last 5 to 8 years which they said was attributed to the expectation that everyone carried dog health insurance. 
I bought a dog once that had ununitied anconeal process , one of the types of elbow dysplasia. I had the free floating chip removed , the dog spayed at the same time for less than $500. 

Like hip dysplasia , elbow dysplasia (and there are different types) is multi factorial, meaning that there may be a genetic predisposition, body weight and condition has an effect and so may trauma as in a blow at a critical growth period where there is bruising or loss of blood flow to the end of a growth plate .

UNDERSTANDING ELBOW DYSPLASIA  . 

I can't speak for them but they did offer you a female pup as a replacement .

Was there a mix up in understanding because as you stated you "initially bought a puppy as a pet" and it may have been at a different price? , or someting not as suitable for work ? Maybe they had nothing in the pet appropriate category and they were trying to make the best match for you.

Could you have waited until an appropriate male came along and would they have gone with that option?

I don't think there are any quarantees offered or expected from european breeders .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The breeder is not far from me but I can say nothing one way or another as I have not seen their dogs, which look nice but looks are looks. FWIW I don't do dogsport but they say they train in elements of schutzhund but I do not see any titles. 

There is a link to the scanned pedigree on each dogs's page.

There is one mismatch on the OFA database where the web says good, OFA says fair

Body Jipo-Me

It is a good example of how a web page can turn someone away. Intriguing enough I may drive up there (I am an hour away) -- but since I will be looking for a young adult that severely narrows the pool.

----------------------

Shame if dog insurance is raising vet prices because it does not cover genetic issues for the most part (if at all) and I quit carrying it (of course before Grim knocked out his teeth, not after) .............. but why should we be surprised?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think I saw two dogs with Sch titles to include Bodo, I see the dogs have the temperament to engage people, I saw Hip certs on the invidual dogs.....if I lived within driving distance I would certainly drive over and see the dogs. I still haven't seen anything negative about their dogs at this point. Just doing the type of work pictured shows me more from the dogs than a lot of breeders with a plethora of Sch or obedience titles.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry Folks, Thanks Chris for the information on the links to the left. After going to the links to the left on Asja and Body....I see that both dogs are titled, both dogs have OFA, and both dogs have strong working pedigrees. So the reality on these two is NOT; no titles, no health certs, etc. I think they could do a better job of website, but now after looking closer at dogs pedigrees, and it appears OFA's on their dogs....why would I pass on them. Of course I never said pass on them from the beginning, because I have seen a rush to judgement TOO many times on this forum based on websites; by people who either don't have clue, or wasn't knowledgable enough to glean the positive. Either way, I see nothing wrong with this breeder any moreso than any other breeder. They have good dogs, concerned about the right things, actively working their dogs, and good pedigrees. Hey!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

This thread is over 2 years old.....I'm assuming the website has changed and/or they have since started titling and health testing their dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Cliff , I'm with you. 
Not only do you need to breed good/great dogs, you have to be a master in web design, advertising / marketing .
People need to contact the person -- have a talk , get references etc.
Lots of dogs have all sorts of titles --- so what . I wouldn't have taken a single one of those GSL on the video in the weak nerve / strong nerve thread home. Zero. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am going to add a bit of a different perspective.....

Now I intend to check these folks out with an entirely open mind.

I have also talked with Sequoyah and it appears they have a following. They seem to be new, buying good stock, and probably have some breeding advice, and they are actively working their dogs and involved in sport. But....sport is sport and I am impressed with vom ron's picture of the dog hanging off of someone in a tree.

Odds are low it will go anywhere for me because I still want to wind up with a dog old enough for prelims and to assess its true capabilities and nerve strength (and I realize that at that point it is all about the individual dog, BUT were I looking again for a puppy...There is a reason the FEMA tests (I am not FEMA but it is a measure we look at) require the prospect to be 12 months or older.

I *have* seen folks with very very nice dogs who have nice pedigrees and work real well *but* they don't know the lines, they don't subject their dogs to third pary evaluation (e.g. trialing them), and they don't have a lifetime of knowledge nor are OCD enough to truly research the lines and combinations thereof. 

*This is in no ways disparaging them. How can I judge someone solely on a web page? But it DOES raise some questions and I think they are fair ones.* 

Carmen has a life history with the GSD, clearly knows her stuff, has a history of placing dogs in true working venues. I have lived within an hour of Rutherfordton since 1985 and I have never heard of these folks, nor has someone on my team who is heavily into dogsport and has lived here all his life. I spent a few weekends a few years ago with Richard Shook and his group (Richard helped me with some obedience trainng and kept my crazy wild dog when I broke my ankle) and never saw their dogs (I think he has one of Anne's dogs now?). He is not that far from them. That is in *no way* running them down, but I would really want to know a lot more to make a jump. 

A lot of folks have bought nice import dogs, thrown them together, and made a mess of things. I have seen some of those kind of messes. Some do well. I would prefer someone breeding dogs know enough to stack the deck properly. Maybe these people do know all that. Maybe they don't.

Also, I would ask about socialization. Big time. I love the woods but are the pups being taken to the "big city" and exposed to those noises, sounds, other people, etc.? Surfaces? Elevations? Open stairs? etc. etc. - or - are they just running around getting lots of love?

There are any number of people on this board I would go to to buy a puppy, in part, because they do work their dogs, do properly socialize pups to a rich and varied environment, other people see their dogs, they do research the lines, they do realize their is more to it thatn just shutzhund titles, and they do back up what they sell. That *is* worth something to me and I think it should be to any puppy buyer looking for a working puppy.

So I don't want to go to far the other way because often people buy a puppy that is riding on the coattails of the work done by people like Anne and Chris and Lee and Christine, and Dennis and.....others who did not just pop into my head right now.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How can I judge somebody sole on a webpage??? How often do you see that done on this forum??? That's why I always say call the people and talk to them. I hear people say they will or will not buy a dog from Websites and breeder's operations that have nothing to do with the quality of the puppy. People today think that if all these specifics are in place things are well. I saw a website recently in where the dogs are all certified for hip, elbows, heart, DM, alzheimer, and whatever else. Dogs had title like CGC, TDI, pet of the month, etc. and people were raving. The dogs appeared to me that if someone shot a gun in the air, the dogs would beat me to the house. But the marketing and the certs and titles looked very impressive I must admit. 
I try to encourage people to get some type of firsthand knowlege before they recommend something negative about another's operations. Maybe I'm too lenient and I need more alphabet soup in my analysis....lol


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Ok, it's time for me, vomron to jump in here. 

***Rest removed by Admin as this was in response to another post that was also deleted by Admin quite some time ago. The board is not the place to hash out personal conflicts or business deals.***


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome to the forum. I am impressed with some of the photos of what you are doing with your dogs.


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Sometimes judgments are made based on false statements. There are two side to every experience.


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

As to put money where mouth is, does four sch titles on three dogs within one month count? And how about a three year old male bred and raised and trained by me becoming parole dog within three months count? And seven dogs from the same litter becoming patrol dogs, does that count? I don't have time to put bunches of titles behind dogs names when my work is cut out for me preparing dogs for the real world. I'm sure that the families with dogs from me watching over their kids appreciate all the time and work I put into preparing these guys. Thank you for your interest.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Jonro, I think several in this thread pointed out the issues with relying solely on a web page......and several indicated a sincere interest in your dogs. Nobody is presntly attacking you unless you are getting insulting private messages, so there is no need to be defensive. 

Why not give people the benefit of the doubt and come on and share what you know, what you are doing, etc.? We ARE a friendly place but have all levels of knowledge and experience.......


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jonro said:


> As to put money where mouth is, does four sch titles on three dogs within one month count? And how about a three year old male bred and raised and trained by me becoming parole dog within three months count? And seven dogs from the same litter becoming patrol dogs, does that count? I don't have time to put bunches of titles behind dogs names when my work is cut out for me preparing dogs for the real world. I'm sure that the families with dogs from me watching over their kids appreciate all the time and work I put into preparing these guys. Thank you for your interest.


 
Hi Jonro , I knew it !!!! Nice dogs . I am in exactly the same position as you when it comes to titling . Lost interest in that a long time ago . 
My time is spent in fine tuning a breeding programme and testing the insides outsides of dogs coming out of that programme. The effort is validated by dogs going out into the real world of service.
Welcome. Looking forward to a fresh voice on behalf of the breed from a working standpoint.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Nancy, thank you ,message well taken. Come by any time.
Jonro


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have a website, it is your window to the world. 

Most people are going to put their best on the website, they will update it and even inflate their claims. It is kind of like a resume for people looking for puppies. 

From the one look on your website, I see a lot of writing about Max's idea of what is important with shepherds, one schutzhund title that in all honesty could have been put on the dog when it was purchased (like mine), and some pictures of dogs training in protection sports. I did see hip and elbow ratings on the dogs. From this, we gave our impression. 

Fix your website. Put on there somewhere that you have seven dogs from one litter out there working as police dogs. That is awesome and should be on your window to the world. 

You should not be angry about our critique of your website. How else can you find what John Q Public thinks about your breeding program. If anything you should say, wow, this is what people think of this, let's update this so that I am not giving the wrong impression. 

I do not think titles make a smarter puppy. But if I know nothing about a breeder, I want to see something that proves their dogs. I cannot trust someone I do not know to give an unbiased opinion on their dogs. Working police dog certainly outweighs titles. And the achievements of progeny are as important as sire and dam. But it has to be documented or how do we know. 

Too many people are out there putting dogs and bitches together, and they can put together a website like yours. You really should not blame us for giving an impression of you as a breeder, generated by our percepetion of your website.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've seen this happen time after time on this forum. Somebody asks a question about Vom Whatever. Several people look at Vom Whatever's website and make some negative comments. Then Vom Whatever joins the board just to defend themselves against what they see as unjust criticism. 

Why not see it as a free marketing study with a built-in focus group? Now you know that people are getting a false impression from your website. Big companies pay lots of money for this kind of knowledge. You can either run around the internet putting out fires and trying to defend yourself against everyone, or you can spend a few hours fixing your website to reflect what you've learned from this impromptu focus group.


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Carmen, that's super. I'm encouraged. Sometimes it is easy to take for granted the natural ability of these dogs and to let them utilize their innate instincts instead of having them do everything by rote. Keep up the program.
Jonro


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you for the input. But I guess I bit off more than I can chew hiring a webmaster and trying to get information out. I feel like all that stuff is bragging but I get the idea that's what a web is for. Again, thank you for the input.
Jonro


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I didn't find anything negative in your website the first time. Maybe the site could have been easier to access the info, but negative stuff???? Sometimes you have to consider the source of negativity.....You appear to have good dogs, your subsequent additional information apparently confirms it, and if some found you as a kennel, one to pass on, then either they know more; or less, than the facts revealed. Keep breeding working dogs. Good Luck!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I didn't find anything negative in your website the first time. Maybe the site could have been easier to access the info, but negative stuff????


I didn't see any negatives, just not enough positives. Obviously the positives exist, so why not brag on them?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I hope you stick around, we love having knowledgeable breeders on the site.

Can I make a suggestion for your site? Something I like to see is OFA links to the actual OFA site, so one can just click on the link to quickly verify the dogs actual OFA status.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not see it as bragging. I see it as a disservice to yourself not to list them. Because people not seeing them will think that the dogs have no accomplishments/pedigrees worth speaking of.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL the downside of making your website TOO good is that everybody who wants a "working dog" will come knocking on your door! 

One trend I see is people want the Czech dogs because of their "looks" - eeeeeek! Its true its true its true... ( I love their looks, too, but not any reason to buy a dog) and have no knowledge of living with a dog with working drives. They think off switch means you can put the dog up for 23.75 hours day and take it for a 15 minute walk and it should be happy.

Lots of people with zero dog experience buy a dog with visions of dog sport or SAR dancing in their head.......then the dog winds up as a frustrated untrained back yard pet........

Well, I am impressed enough to making a drive up there real soon ........ may not have tons of experience but have one czech (with some east german) dog that I have trained myself and certified 3 years running to national police cadaver certifications.


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Good idea. Thanks.


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

** argumentative with intent to start conflict. removed by Admin**


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I visited the kennels on Thursday and saw dogs in excellent hard condition in clean quarters and obviously well cared for and loved and a breeder who seemed to have a depth of knowledge about her lines. 

Nothing fancy here- no aluminum buildings and shiny concrete and chain link runs - homemade old farm set up but no odor in the facilities or on the dogs and the house was right there next to the runs not far away (which I have seen before). Lots of woods and streams and fields which is the kind of place I and my own dogs enjoy being the most.

I also saw a breeder fiercely protective of her puppies and their placement.

Before I went, I asked a few on this board and elswhere (who know more about Czech lines) and they were impressed with the lines and a combination I mentioned. 

Spent plenty of time with me and some teammates. No attempt to "sell" but showed us several pups and their parents and spent time with us evaluating them.

--Sure some suggestions for webpage are in order. Personally, I like to see where the puppies went, what combinations were made, and what they are doing! .... But it is a webpage - a front - an image. You still have to go see someone in person or work with trusted referrals I think from people who have the dogs. 

My comments before still stand. I think they are valid and not targeted at this or any specific breeder. I would want to know those things of anyone.

I asked about involvment in local sport clubs (that was a specific comment) and got an answer that satisfied me - maybe one a few years ago I would have made a snap judgement, but today I know of valid concerns people have about the value of schutzhund as a competition sport in todays world, as opposed to an honest evaluation criteria (look at what has happened to all competition sports where prestige and money are involved!) 

I still have questions I would ask in more detail before I made a decision but you know, I think the breeder is looking at me with as much, if not more, scrutiny than I at her.

As for me, I don't know where I will wind up in my search. I cannot take a dog until the Fall or next year (and with a 3 dog limit in my subdivision, cannot risk getting other than THE next cadaver dog)......because when I do get a dog, I am committed to it for life and don't want to risk not having a working partner when Grim retires. 

And what I am not seeing here is someone breeding for a current fad! And that is a sincere honest concern I have looking at ANY Czech dogs because it is happening.


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## jonboy265 (Apr 10, 2011)

*Vom Ron Visit*

I visited Vom Ron about two weeks ago and was extremely impressed with Joan's knowledge of German Shepherd's as well as her patience with my questions. Puppy I looked at was well cared for, socialized, and had a very good temperament. 

Jon


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