# Banned E collar and Prong collar??



## Liz&Anna

I keep reading things about banning of E collars and prong collars, I saw something about it being banned in Quebec, and a few weeks ago I believe I read something about it being banned in Europe and a few things about the sport of schutzhund changing over there. I don't know if this is already being discussed on here and I feel like I learn so much from this forum and it's conversations. How can they train military or police type dogs with out the use of these important tools?? 


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## misslesleedavis1

Are you talking about prongs and e collars being banned as a whole or just with military and police dogs?


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## nikon22shooter

Banned to the public, no one said anything about government use lol.


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## misslesleedavis1

Holy crap, isnt that the owners choice to use those tools, they dont exist because they dont work.


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## Liz&Anna

The few things I read didn't give info about the ban, other then the use of these items were banned. So police and military are not included in it?


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## Liz&Anna

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Are you talking about prongs and e collars being banned as a whole or just with military and police dogs?


Banned to any normal pet owner I guess, Including people who do SCH or PSA...


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## misslesleedavis1

lol that is a bad idea, usually people dont start out with the prong, its usually a tool that is at the higher end of the training tool spectrum for everyday pet owners, people may go, 1) flat collar, 2) martingale 3) gentle leader 4) choke chain 5) prong 6) e collar (sorry if i missed one), 
You dont just throw a prong or e collar on any dog but in my experiance alot of everyday pet owners make the choice to use a tool like that based on the fact they have tried everything else, seeked advice and now they are taking it a step up. 

Really i feel like it is the owners choice and it should be a tool readily available for owners who understand the proper use of it, not something that is banned.


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## starburst

It's true, the Quebec government has banned e-collars and prong collars.
The Normal Dog: Oh yes they did! Quebec government has said no more shocking and pinching dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1

starburst said:


> It's true, the Quebec government has banned e-collars and prong collars.
> The Normal Dog: Oh yes they did! Quebec government has said no more shocking and pinching dogs.


That makes me shake my head in disbelief, i saw a trainer wrote the article, i guess she does not realize what works for her may not work for everyone, which sucks and they may find themselves in hot water with there choice to ban those tools.


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## Liz&Anna

I know that some people use these tools incorrectly, and I use to be against them to, but after being around many working dogs (police dogs, bomb dogs even just competitive sport dogs) I learned to see there value and after becoming the owner of a female working line German shepherd who can be extremely hard headed. I fell in love with PSA, and SCH. Now I see things like this and they are very disappointing to read.


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## Liz&Anna

misslesleedavis1 said:


> That makes me shake my head in disbelief, i saw a trainer wrote the article, i guess she does not realize what works for her may not work for everyone, which sucks and they may find themselves in hot water with there choice to ban those tools.


EXACTLY! Ill be the first to admit I use and love my pinch collar. Anna is extremely dominant around other dogs (I currently do OB with 3 separate groups who specialize in working dogs) and I would LOVE to see an all positive trainer work with Anna when she wants to destroy another female dog next to her, I spend weeks trying to fix this problem with food and toys....the prong collar stopped it then and there.


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## Liz&Anna

I also don't understand then- if military and police are allowed to use them and general public is not...that seems a bit hypocritical to me. Why is it ok for them but not ok for someone doing SCH?


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## misslesleedavis1

@Liz&Anna,

I think that instead of full on banning them they should have free education explaining to people the positives and negatives of the prong or e collar training tools. You are right, sometimes people dont use them correctly and it makes a situation worse, but as i said before they exist because they work, not because they dont.


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## nikon22shooter

Just one more way they control what people are allowed to use. Smh


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## misslesleedavis1

Also one size does not fit everyone...positive puppies may work for 9 out of 10 dogs, 1000 treats falling out of your pockets is fine but some dogs need more, i dont think anyone can deny that, no matter who they are,


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## David Winners

Based on bad science and driven by pet trainers and AR activists that have never worked a dog a day in their life. 

The wrong people are shouting the loudest.


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## Liz&Anna

misslesleedavis1 said:


> @Liz&Anna,
> 
> I think that instead of full on banning them they should have free education explaining to people the positives and negatives of the prong or e collar training tools. You are right, sometimes people dont use them correctly and it makes a situation worse, but as i said before they exist because they work, not because they dont.


Agreed 100%


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## Liz&Anna

David Winners said:


> Based on bad science and driven by pet trainers and AR activists that have never worked a dog a day in their life.
> 
> The wrong people are shouting the loudest.


It's sad I feel bad for the people there who may have a reactive dog that could have been helped, and that may now suffer because other methods aren't capturing the dogs attention 


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## misslesleedavis1

nikon22shooter said:


> Just one more way they control what people are allowed to use. Smh


Agreed, sounds more like a easy way to make 600.00.


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## Liz&Anna

HAHAHAHAH!!!! 


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol I knew there was a reason I didnt like that province.


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## Lauri & The Gang

They should also ban leashes - because some people have hung their dogs with them.

And collars - because some people have grabbed the dog by them and punished the dog.

And cars - because some people have hit animals with them.

Oh, heck - let's just be done with it and ban owning animals, that way no-one can hurt them.

Yeah, and let's ban children because people abuse them as well.


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## Kaimeju

*sigh* This won't even do anything. The people that would be abusive with a prong or an e-collar can be just as abusive with an ordinary slip lead. The people who use them correctly weren't being abusive in the first place.


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## ozzymama

It's a drafted legislation - nothing passed yet.


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## Baillif

I wouldn't mind if people had to pass tests on their use before being licensed to use them,but outright banning is stupid.


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## Liz&Anna

Baillif said:


> I wouldn't mind if people had to pass tests on their use before being licensed to use them,but outright banning is stupid.


See that's a good idea also 


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## Liz&Anna

Lauri & The Gang said:


> They should also ban leashes - because some people have hung their dogs with them.
> 
> And collars - because some people have grabbed the dog by them and punished the dog.
> 
> And cars - because some people have hit animals with them.
> 
> Oh, heck - let's just be done with it and ban owning animals, that way no-one can hurt them.
> 
> Yeah, and let's ban children because people abuse them as well.


Hahah whoa sounds like PETA 0:]


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## Blitzkrieg1

Im sure all the poochs will be happier on their new choke chains...lol.

Anyways I will no longer attend trials in that province if they pass that stupid bill.


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## misslesleedavis1

Their is an elderly couple up the road who use a prong while walking their dog. The dog looks pretty happy, and the people are ot being pulled down the street. I wonder how this will look in Quebec? hip breaks all over the place.


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## misslesleedavis1

Baillif said:


> I wouldn't mind if people had to pass tests on their use before being licensed to use them,but outright banning is stupid.


I agree with this, but that would cost money. They dont want to spend money on education they want to take the easy way out and make cash off of fines.


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## David Winners

Where there's a will, there's a way.


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## misslesleedavis1

David Winners said:


> Herm Sprenger NECK-TECH Prong Training Collar 24"
> 
> Where there's a will, there's a way.


People friendly prongs  beating the system.


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## David Winners

You know that's why they developed it!


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## carmspack

David Winners "








Based on bad science and driven by pet trainers and AR activists that have never worked a dog a day in their life. 

The wrong people are shouting the loudest. "

once again going through my mountain of saved magazines and books I came across this gem earlier in the month . I was going to share it as a curiosity , now I share it with a purpose . This is going to be a Feed-Back email originally written by a Robert (Bob) Scott . It appeared in our Canadian Kennel Clubs monthly magazine, the official communication from the national breed club . The date of the issue is June of 2008. That is almost 6 years ago. That is how long this topic has been roiling . Mr Scott responded to "Collar debate, continued" some comments in the Feed-back issue in the magazine but the April issue . I have not come across this issue and may not have it . I saved the June issue for the main article on coat color and behaviour , are they linked. 
here goes .........

"Please permit me to comment specifically to Shannon Darch regarding her comment about the "prong collar" article (Feedback , April)
Thousands upon thousands of dogs are killed every year in Canada and the U.S. because people have no idea how to manage them, much less train them, and also because of people who've swung the pendulum so far off centre that people are longer even allowed to say NO to their dog for fear of "squelching" its personality!

Cesar of the Dog Whisperer and Brad of At the End of My Leash , and many others like them, are personally responsible for giving a new lease on life to thousands of dogs that would otherwise have been killed in many cases, they have stepped in after people of the Purely Positive ilk have given up on these dogs and their owners. Not every dog owner or dog can be trained and managed by purely positive methods - but they all should at least have a chance at life.
How many dogs have you saved from the needle in your extensive 20 years of cookie and clicker training experience . And how many have you written off.
A prong collar (or any other collar) does not have to elicit 'pain' as you allege, in order to effectively train or rehabilitate a dog. You may think of your dogs as your children, but your dogs do not think of you in those terms and all dogs benefit from understanding their position in the pack.
The dark side? That would be the death of a dog that was failed to be trained by a Purely Positive trainer.
I'll place the bond I have with my dogs alongside yours any day "


__________________


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## misslesleedavis1

You know some people take it to far, when dexter our first was about a year old we took him into pet smart, he went to take a toy of the bottom shelf and andrew had said "NO" in a very stern matter of fact voice, after that we were quickly approached by a lady who was at the other end of the toy section giving up her free unwanted advice about "how you should never ever speak to your dog that way because he is sensitive and you can hurt their feelings its abusive". I told her to mind her own business and she stomped away in a huff, she would be one to advocate against prongs most likely, far too many people are going off the rails with crazy things to say about everything these days.


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## carmspack

I love the quality of Herm Sprenger but this 



 
not so much -- the original prong collar (edited link)
http://www.rayallen.com/product/stainless-steel-pinch-collar/herm-sprenger

allowed for slack , movement from off to deployed . A lightning fast use then off , marking the undesirable behaviour .

The new one is a fixed flat collar . The setting would be "on" all the time like background white noise and not effective other than being an inhibitor to pulling , not so much for training. 

I tend to have samples of what is out there -- and so years ago I bought a few of these -- look handsome , politically correct -- need some work on the design though K9 Fun Works


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm a reformed anti-prong person.

The purely positive people (not all mind you) can be pretty rude and abusive themselves. They have no problem with berating a perfect stranger and then fuss over a dog they also have no clue about.


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> I love the quality of Herm Sprenger but this Amazon.com: Herm Sprenger NECK-TECH Prong Training Collar 24": Pet Supplies
> 
> not so much -- the original prong collar (edited link)
> Stainless Steel Pinch Collar - Helps Prevent Fur Discoloration.
> 
> allowed for slack , movement from off to deployed . A lightning fast use then off , marking the undesirable behaviour .
> 
> The new one is a fixed flat collar . The setting would be "on" all the time like background white noise and not effective other than being an inhibitor to pulling , not so much for training.
> 
> I tend to have samples of what is out there -- and so years ago I bought a few of these -- look handsome , politically correct -- need some work on the design though K9 Fun Works


I edited the link in your post Carmen. It was 300 characters long and broken. If you wish it to be something else, let me know.


Have you, or has anyone, worked with the new collar? I haven't put my hands on one yet. It still pivots between the links.


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## misslesleedavis1

Seriously makes me wonder, how far is too far when it comes to dogs. Some may say kicking your dog off the couch or bed is totally abusive, your dog ahould have every single right your child should have because they are fur babies, HA! ya right, my dogs "sensitive feelings" dont outweigh my kids. I saw a jogging fani pack on google images were you can slip your little dog into your ass pockets and jog away...the dogs then hangs off your backside while you run, that to me is a bit much.


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## carmspack

thank you David , I saw the "copy" and that is not what I wanted. I tried to delete that mess and timed out . so thanks , perfect


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## misslesleedavis1

And here it is,


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## Sarah~

misslesleedavis1 said:


> View attachment 181018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is,


Oh wow, really, people?? Lol that poor dog


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## boomer11

David Winners said:


> Herm Sprenger NECK-TECH Prong Training Collar 24"
> 
> Where there's a will, there's a way.


The neck tech is NOT good for gsds. The prongs aren't long enough and it doesn't give the same correction as a regular prong collar does. It isn't as "self correcting" as a regular prong and requires more force to give the same correction. 

I also don't like how the width is very narrow. It is too small on a neck of a larger sized Shepherd. It seems more like a rope around his neck than a collar. I wouldn't recommend.


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## carmspack

hey , I think that dog can get shaken baby syndrome.

Dogs In Canada had an image , don't recall whether it was an advert or a cover image -- a good looking young man taking his dog for a walk , a golden retriever maybe around 40 pounds plus . sounds good so far , but where was the doggy , in a back pack , not four on the floor getting exercise .
I participated in Woofstock 2 years consecutive , NO MORE , this kind of silly stuff gets promoted . I don't think that is a good thing at all ! We are so urbanized, so removed from the nature of animals , we are creating rules and regs that are not even in the BEST interest of the animals.
Soon dogs will have sippy cups so that they have access to water at all times . Not joking. Meanwhile , when driving , if we take a sip of water or coffee while waiting for the light to change we can get dinged for distracted driving.


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## crackem

sometimes dogs and kids are born or living in situations we don't like. I try to do better by showing better and helping when I can. School stuff, community service stuff, help a kid that has fallen on his bike stuff, fix a flat stuff, donate time and food for healthy breakfast at school stuff, basically lend a hand when it is needed or asked for.

Beyond that I am of the opinion people need to mind their own freakin business. To a degree anyway. If some parent thinks a bag of dorritos is acceptable for dinner, that really isn't your business. There are things you can do to try and help, but legislating and banning are not, or should not be the way to do it.

If a parent spanks their kid and you don't like it, tough **** for you. Lead by example, try and have a conversation, do what YOU feel you need to do, but legislation, CPS, abuse charges and all that other stuff shouldn't be an option. 

If a dog has a prong collar on, you might not like it, tough. Feel bad and do all the things you think you need to do, but legislation, bans and calling animal control should NOT be an option.

Beyond sexual abuse, starvation or regular physical punishments that are leaving marks, none of that other stuff should be able to be "defined" as abusive except in someone's mind. Otherwise everything is open for interpretation and those screaming the loudest now really won't like it when the screaming is pointed at them. I can promise that everyone does something regularly in their lives that other people would take offense to.

Banning prong collars won't stop abuse. Most truly abused dogs have never seen a prong collar, or an electric collar.


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## ozzymama

People have to remember, Quebec has a bad record in terms of animal husbandry, especially companion animals. The whole Draft can be read here, http://www.hsi.org/assets/pdfs/comments_on_draft_regulations.pdf There is just so much of it that just will not happen, dogs and cats must see daylight 8 hours a day, rests between breeding cycles, whether dogs and cats can be in the same part of a kennel. Certainly will knock out the bad breeders and people who think they can run a doggy day care out of their house.


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## carmspack

you don't think these ideas and sentiments won't impact on sport training ---


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## angelas

I saw something about this Quebec thing on Friday but didn't get to read it. Actually, I was at a show and *gasp* we were using prongs to control my friends super friendly 90lb lab that thinks the floor is for sissies. 

So my question is, is the ban a ban on possession (like Manitoba's ban on possession of radar detectors:smirk or a ban on the USE of the prong/ecollar?

Second, do they define what a prong or ecollar is? An e collar can be something that gives off a high pitch sound, a vibration, a citronella spray or an electric shock. 

The only good thing that could possibly come out of passing this ban is that it effectively bans e-fences.


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## Blanketback

Thank you Carmen and boomer11 for your feedback on the neck tech. I'm more than happy with my HS prong, but I've looked at that collar as a PC option, lol. My first impression was that it's a completely different correction, with an awkward fit. Now I don't have to waste my money by seeing it first hand.


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## misslesleedavis1

@crackem,

How true is that, most abused dog are lucky to get a collar.


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## carmspack

no it is not just Quebec . Over the last month on radio talk show (1010) which I have on while driving around there was a very emotional , no more than that , fanatic, man phoning in from Toronto who was organizing some personal agenda for legislation on dog care -- with great vigour he went on to say that no dogs should be outside in the cold , their faces would get cold , their ears get frost bite. ???? 

meanwhile , a shameful reality is that people are sleeping on the streets - laying on heat vents in front of City Hall . Many have psychological problems and are difficult to bring indoors or have them receive help (legislation) . 


there was a court case in Oshawa Jan/Feb this year -- trainer charged - his lawyer made a statement saying that all the guy did was to use time honored training practices that have been common for the last 60 or so years . I don't know if there were other issues . I don't know if the case is over and don't know the results.


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## David Winners

It already has:

From the AWDF home page:



> Important information received from the FCI Working Dog Commission to the AWDF regarding a rules change for the 2014 FCI IPO World Championship in Sweden.
> 
> Stick hits will be removed from all exercises in the protection phase.
> 
> ___________________________________________
> 
> The FCI world IPO championship will be in Sweden next year. No whips, sticks, e-collars or prong collars will be allowed on the championship grounds. This includes vendors as well as competitors.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/406754-no-stick-hits-fci-championships.html


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## misslesleedavis1

I belonged to a facebook group of moms in my town and i remember a post from a women who was claiming her neighbours 6 year old child was walking to school alone. I followed the post and within 10 minutes she had people going absolutely crazy with child abuse accusations and withing half an hour she had a group of people ready to all call child services and report this women they did not know, they did not know if this other womans post was accurate, this lady managed to stir up a witch hunt within half an hour. My point is the power of the wrong information in an idiots hands could be very powerful, and scary.


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## Merciel

_If_ the ban effectively happens, I think it'll be interesting to see the results five or ten years down the line.

I guess my view on it overall is the same as the federalist idea of the various states in the U.S. acting as little lab experiments in democracy. What happens if we allow X? What happens if we ban Y? Let's see what the effects are in society!

If it works, other states might choose to follow that model. If it doesn't, let it be a cautionary tale to the world.

Of course, I get to have the luxury of a detached perspective because it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I might feel differently if it did. But since I do have the privilege of being unaffected, my view is pretty much "well hey, let's go ahead and see what happens, then."


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## Blanketback

Ok, call me a trouble maker, but if I believed the prong collar was a more humane choice over any other (which I do, if the dog is pulling too hard) and I was slapped with a fine, I'd challenge it in court. Just because some AR people are able to sway public opinion doesn't mean we have to accept it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

My current pup is very handler hard. My wife cannot walk her without a prong, she is not strong enough nor does she have the presence to effectively handle the dog without it. Their are many others like her, Im sure they will be staying in the backyard alot more often.

What will the end result be? Breeding softer dogs that require no more then a stern word to correct them? Its already happening. 
Soon owning, training and breeding truly strong dogs will be something you do on your private property behind tall fences.

"you do not need fear and pain to train dogs" It sounds so noble and true and is always where the argument ends. Ask those same people to show the results of their training..and you get a border collie doing parlor tricks for cookies if that.


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## Blanketback

It's the old 'divide and conquer' method of controlling the masses. I personally would prefer to sit on the fence, and antagonize both sides


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## bill

Passauf! Packen! Auass!
watch! Get him! Out! Dog! Are you crazy I like getting the bad guy!
Owner! Here have a treat! Dog! No thanks I already have one!
Lol Bill


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## Harry and Lola

As far as I know E-collars are banned in some states in Australia but legislation does not say prong collars are illegal (I think).

Here in Sydney, you rarely if ever see someone using an e-collar or prong collar, I have only ever seen 1 person use a prong collar which she used on her American Staffy, she ordered it from Europe and it looked like something out of medieval times!


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## angelas

Well, knowing how stuff likes to spread west, I am thankful I found a site that will ship a prong to me. I now have three stainless steel ones and a black one in the mail. Figured it would be easier to get them before SK got stupid.


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## David Winners

Harry and Lola said:


> As far as I know E-collars are banned in some states in Australia but legislation does not say prong collars are illegal (I think).
> 
> Here in Sydney, you rarely if ever see someone using an e-collar or prong collar, I have only ever seen 1 person use a prong collar which she used on her American Staffy, she ordered it from Europe and it looked like something out of medieval times!


What is the state of protection sports in Australia? Almost non existent.

David Winners


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## Harry and Lola

The German Shepherd Dog Leagues only train for showing, obedience and herding, they don't train for schutzhund. There seems to be a schutzhund club set up across a couple of States, but I don't know anything about them and I've never met anyone who has trained in schutzhund, the only dogs that are schutzhund trained as far as I am aware are the stud dogs coming from overseas, mainly Europe and the USA. So there is not a lot of choice for protection sports available to us. Shame, because I would love to learn this and feel it would be a great confidence boast to the dog and enable a firm bond between owner and dog.


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## Merciel

Blanketback said:


> Ok, call me a trouble maker, but if I believed the prong collar was a more humane choice over any other (which I do, if the dog is pulling too hard) and I was slapped with a fine, I'd challenge it in court.


That would work about as well as trying to get out of a traffic ticket by claiming to be a member of an independent federation not subject to U.S. laws (which is a not-uncommon attempted defense around here, actually).

And just like those people, you'd be given your ten minutes to ramble on the witness stand, while the judge filled out her electric bill and the bailiffs checked their text messages and the prosecutors let their interns play at cross-examination, and at the end of the ten minutes you'd still have to pay your fine.

The system is what it is. Once a thing goes into law, making a principled stand doesn't do anything besides bore everybody whose job it is to do this stuff and add about $200 of court costs to your bill.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Harry and Lola said:


> As far as I know E-collars are banned in some states in Australia but legislation does not say prong collars are illegal (I think).
> 
> Here in Sydney, you rarely if ever see someone using an e-collar or prong collar, I have only ever seen 1 person use a prong collar which she used on her American Staffy, she ordered it from Europe and it looked like something out of medieval times!


 
There are very few people training or working real dogs in Oz. Those that do keep their training and methods behind closed doors. Search around a bit you will find them.


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## Blanketback

Merciel said:


> And just like those people, you'd be given your ten minutes to ramble on the witness stand...


Believe it or not, both my sister and I were able to get out of paying (what we considered to be) stupid and useless fines. You just have to be determined enough to do it.


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## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are very few people training or working real dogs in Oz. Those that do keep their training and methods behind closed doors. Search around a bit you will find them.


I know who some of them are from the other forum. 

Police dogs can't use prongs or e-collar in some countries.

Technically, neither can be used on a military dog in the US.


David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1

I see the US military uses choke chains arguable which one is more effective though I know which I personally prefer. 
You say technically, does that mean the reality is somewhat different? The guys at Von Liche and some other kennels I can think of who supply the US mil and others use all those tools when they train.


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## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I see the US military uses choke chains arguable which one is more effective though I know which I personally prefer.
> You say technically, does that mean the reality is somewhat different?


Every kennel I know of has some training gear stashed in a locker somewhere. Don't know if they use it. I've never witnessed such a thing.

Every picture of my military dogs you can find includes a choke chain or flat collar. I would never contemplate implicating myself or others in unauthorized use of training equipment.

VLK dogs don't fall under military rules until purchased by the military. VLK trainers don't fall under military rules because they are civilians.


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## Merciel

Blanketback said:


> Believe it or not, both my sister and I were able to get out of paying (what we considered to be) stupid and useless fines. You just have to be determined enough to do it.


I... suppose.

My perspective tends to be a little different. Once something is classified as a possessory offense, I (the system) don't care why you have the forbidden whatever. I don't _care_ if you have PCP because you "need" it to self-medicate against bipolar disorder or because you just want to get high. If you have PCP, and having PCP is against the law, that's it, the inquiry ends there. Irrelevant defenses just waste my time, and I deal with enough of them that I have no patience for the attempts.

But that's a total tangent and irrelevant anyway. I cannot imagine similar legislation passing in the U.S., so this doesn't affect me and likely never will, since I don't see myself moving to Quebec anytime soon.

I'm mostly just interested to see what, if any, effects it might actually have where/if it's enforced. I'm similarly interested in seeing what happens in the European countries where certain tools and techniques have been outlawed. It's an interesting social experiment -- in five or ten years, I suppose we might be able to see what, if anything, actually does change.


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## Blanketback

I believe that people acting like sheep will guarantee people being treated like sheep, so if I see an opportunity to stand up for myself, I'll take it. However, if it was possession of PCP, I'd fold, lol. I'm talking about stupid 'laws' that have no merit - and this isn't really a 'law' - just an offence you'd be fined over.


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## Blitzkrieg1

David Winners said:


> Every kennel I know of has some training gear stashed in a locker somewhere. Don't know if they use it. I've never witnessed such a thing.
> 
> Every picture of my military dogs you can find includes a choke chain or flat collar. I would never contemplate implicating myself or others in unauthorized use of training equipment.
> 
> VLK dogs don't fall under military rules until purchased by the military. VLK trainers don't fall under military rules because they are civilians.


 
Sorry that was a stupid question..lol. 
Are the dogs ever off lead while operating or must they always be attached to the handler or on a long line?


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## David Winners

All the VLK dogs are off leash trained. Most MWDs are on leash trained. They work very differently.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I see, is it SOP that the dog is always attached to the handler?


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## David Winners

Most MWDs work on a flexi attached to their kit. 

I work on a 30' sometimes, but mostly off leash, out to a couple hundred meters if the situation permits.

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1

Cool thanks for the info!


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## Blanketback

OMG David, did you say _flexi_?! What's this world coming to...


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## David Winners

Blanketback said:


> OMG David, did you say _flexi_?! What's this world coming to...


LOL... It actually works in their system pretty well. It removes the learning curve necessary to develop the ninja skills on a long line and keeps the dog contained while the handler's hands are free. I hate them with a passion though. Ever seen a dog running away from the flexi that is chasing it?

I'll stick to off leash. I just don't want to be 20 feet away when my dog indicates on a 500 pound IED. 

David Winners


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## starburst

I'm in Quebec( unfortunately) and this poses a huge problem for me. 
Lola is great with the prong collar but the complete opposite with her regular collar. She's 70 lbs and I'm 115 lbs ,she also happens to go nuts around other dogs despite the fact that we did tons of socialization early on so there is just no way I would even consider leaving the house with her if she wasn't wearing a prong. 
It just so happens that I lost her regular prong collar so I ordered the neck tech collar since the prongs aren't visible.


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## Deno

This is just another case of a clueless government bureaucracy that has no real world experience at anything telling others that they know better. We can all relate to this.

Any dog person with common sense knows one good correction is worth a thousand bad ones. The prong collar is the safest most effective tool for the basic and the more advanced training. The e-collar is a fantastic tool with many applications. 

While common sense would dictate not using either of these tools on a toy poodle, reality demands it with a high drive working dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Canada is not a dictatorship therefore it's the people who are pushing these sorts of laws, not the gov't.

We see it here in the US more with BSL which is pushed by clueless constituents at local state level mostly. Just sayin' in order to prevent problems we need to understand THE source of the problem. 




Deno said:


> This is just another case of a clueless government bureaucracy that has no real world experience at anything telling others that they know better. We can all relate to this.
> 
> Any dog person with common sense knows one good correction is worth a thousand bad ones. The prong collar is the safest most effective tool for the basic and the more advanced training. The e-collar is a fantastic tool with many applications.
> 
> While common sense would dictate not using either of these tools on a toy poodle, reality demands it with a high drive working dog.


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## Deno

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Canada is not a dictatorship therefore it's the people who are pushing these sorts of laws, not the gov't.
> 
> We see it here in the US more with BSL which is pushed by clueless constituents at local state level mostly. Just sayin' in order to prevent problems we need to understand THE source of the problem.


 
Dictatorship?

The posted link attached below said it was the gov't.

There's been lots of chatter about the news that the Quebec government agency that oversees regulation for the safety and well-being of dogs and cats (MAPAQ) has deemed electronic collars and prong collars "unacceptable" equipment as of 2013. Public reaction was initially mixed: There was some celebrating on one side and some grumbling on the other. Both sides agreed, however, that this was a pretty benign move on the government's part and that basically nothing would change out there in the real world.

?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Speaking of the cause, it's a group of people who are using emotional hot buttons to push their agenda. It's not an agenda based on reason, balance or results oriented analysis. It's an agenda that often (ironically) works against the well being of the dogs.

The only way to stop this is to fight back, in the media and legislatively.



> "I also am very aware that in the current political climate in dog training, those same trainers would choose to keep their opinions to themselves if they thought that the tools were useful for some dogs or for some goals in training for fear of reprisal both professional and private. The result of this is that the propaganda machine gathers steam virtually unchecked. When we are afraid or reluctant to question the prevailing wisdom whether it makes sense to us or not, we are in very frightening territory indeed. The current call to live in our heads where all things are equal, black and white, instead of the real world where multiple variables create all shades of grey is opening up a huge cavernous gap in dog training."


 Link below:


Pinch me, I’m dreaming…. | Guard Dog Blog


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's certain *groups of people* pushing for this within Quebec (which is a province not representative of the entire country nor her people).

My point is this specific (not really tied to a monetary driver) is being pushed by certain groups of people within the Quebec community (you know like the PETA types) just as we have some extremists in GA pushing for an all out pitbull ban.

Since prongs nor pitbulls are part of a corporate monetocracy this truly is a populist gone mad type of thing.

The people are pushing the gov't in this case - those who think it's wrong need to push back, not just blame gov't bueacracy.

It's not a case of top down gov't at all, people on the other side of the issue do have some sway if they put their mind to it and petition against the ban.



Deno said:


> Dictatorship?
> 
> The posted link attached below said it was the gov't.
> 
> There's been lots of chatter about the news that the Quebec government agency that oversees regulation for the safety and well-being of dogs and cats (MAPAQ) has deemed electronic collars and prong collars "unacceptable" equipment as of 2013. Public reaction was initially mixed: There was some celebrating on one side and some grumbling on the other. Both sides agreed, however, that this was a pretty benign move on the government's part and that basically nothing would change out there in the real world.
> 
> ?


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## Gwenhwyfair

....and one more point, if the people who are against this didn't/don't push back hard enough....then they get the legislation/laws/rules that the other group pushed for.

If you don't fight back, you have to deal with the consequences.

Personally if I ever get wind of anything like this coming about in our area I'm going to kick up one heck-uva fuss!!!!


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## Deno

I agree with fighting the kooks on every level that drive these sort of things,

but the fact is, only the government can legislate what the kooks want.

They do this to get the kook vote.


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## Blanketback

Kooks are very loud too - they're 100 times louder than a 'normal' person, so it makes it seem like there's more of them, giving the impression that they're the majority. It's so annoying!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Usually it's a follow the money scenario if it's 'top down'.

In this case though, it's not really as much about money as the 'kook agenda'  in these cases people can fight back even more so. The gov't can also legislate what the balanced, reasonable people want as well.

Let's not make it worse by framing it as some inevitable 'big gov't' thing because often that isn't the case, it frames it as though people are helpless against things like this.

MOST of this type of legislation is being pushed at the local levels and that's where people can make a big difference, if they are willing and care enough to do so.

Like the trainer's blog I posted earlier stated, silence is our worst enemy.



Deno said:


> I agree with fighting the kooks on every level that drive these sort of things,
> 
> but the fact is, only the government can legislate what the kooks want.
> 
> They do this to get the kook vote.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. This!

That's why, though I don't like it personally, the way to fight back is to use 'propaganda push back'. 

Meaning point out how many dogs are put down that may have been saved if only it had been trained differently. Then show a picture with a heap of dead dogs from a shelter, with a caption like "For some too much kindness kills" or something like that.

"Better to have pinch then be dead."





Blanketback said:


> Kooks are very loud too - they're 100 times louder than a 'normal' person, so it makes it seem like there's more of them, giving the impression that they're the majority. It's so annoying!


----------



## Blanketback

LOL, if only rational discussion would make a dent! Believe me, I've tried. It must be that loud droning going on in their heads or something? They can only change the subject - they'd probably say those dogs were too aggressive and _shouldn't_ be rehomed. .


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## Gwenhwyfair

True, those so entrenched in extremes are too emotionally invested to change their minds. It's about which message is going to control the discussion and sway general public opinion. I really don't think that in the US or Canada the PETA types represent the majority of the public. 

People will go on what information they have and may be moved by a persuasive counter argument. 




Blanketback said:


> LOL, if only rational discussion would make a dent! Believe me, I've tried. It must be that loud droning going on in their heads or something? They can only change the subject - they'd probably say those dogs were too aggressive and _shouldn't_ be rehomed. .


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## misslesleedavis1

Urgh kooks are everywhere, I recall a certain poster floating around facebook with an image of shelter dogs, in bold letters it reads, so you want to buy a puppy, which one of these dogs would you like to kill first. 
It spread like wildfire among the hardcores. Its disgusting and a great way to turn away future adopters who look at it and go "wow thats disturbing, moving on now"
The problem is all the rational people have better things to do then follow up with what's happening in crazy ville. 
I have worked with a women who made a very bold statement about her rather seeing children be put to sleep then dogs, now she has a problem obviously but the scary part is she and others like her exist and when you have numbers you have more power. So, thats what happened here, wrong information in multiple wrong hands, 



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## KaiserandStella

Like many things, when in the right hands prongs/e-collars can be useful and life saving. Yes, people misuse them but that doesn't mean that you take the option away from everyone. As long as they are used properly and are not used to abuse so what? It's up to the individual to decide what is a right fit for their dog. Not everyone is on the same path. Personally, I wouldn't use an e-collar on my own dog because I simply don't need to and I don't care for them. I have a really strong relationship with my dog. He looks to me for leadership. Doesn't have any aggression issues and trusts me to protect him. I prefer physical corrections with my hands or a leash but just because I wouldn't use an e-collar myself doesn't mean that I don't want others to use the device if they need to. It's not up to me or anyone else to decide what training methods or what tools someone else should use.


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## Arlene/Archer

Liz&Anna said:


> It's sad I feel bad for the people there who may have a reactive dog that could have been helped, and that may now suffer because other methods aren't capturing the dogs attention
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


To be fair, where I am from, Ireland, we don't use prongs or e-collars at all (normally), and yet we manage to train all manner of dogs- including reactive dogs, without them.


----------



## sparra

Arlene/Archer said:


> To be fair, where I am from, Ireland, we don't use prongs or e-collars at all (normally), and yet we manage to train all manner of dogs- including reactive dogs, without them.


Same over here.....I find it funny that people can't imagine training without them.
Police dogs over here wear check chains.......:shocked:


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## Chip18

KaiserandStella said:


> Like many things, when in the right hands prongs/e-collars can be useful and life saving. Yes, people misuse them but that doesn't mean that you take the option away from everyone. As long as they are used properly and are not used to abuse so what? It's up to the individual to decide what is a right fit for their dog. Not everyone is on the same path. Personally, I wouldn't use an e-collar on my own dog because I simply don't need to and I don't care for them. I have a really strong relationship with my dog. He looks to me for leadership. Doesn't have any aggression issues and trusts me to protect him. I prefer physical corrections with my hands or a leash but just because I wouldn't use an e-collar myself doesn't mean that I don't want others to use the device if they need to. It's not up to me or anyone else to decide what training methods or what tools someone else should use.


Yep pretty much I screwed up with a prong. I was that guy. At some point I noticed that the dogs I had not used a prong on were excellent on leash 

So I changed my thinking from "what's wrong with this dog" to ''What am I doing wrong" when I saw a prong used properly on You Tube. Now I train with a regular collar and leash but I also know the problem wasn't the too,l it was the user!:blush:

Now I realized that any tool can be abused. But logical discussion is not what drives most debates.


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## David Winners

sparra said:


> Same over here.....I find it funny that people can't imagine training without them.
> Police dogs over here wear check chains.......:shocked:


The check is harder on the dog than either the prong or e-collar. Passing that law created more physical stress on the dogs being trained IMO.

People were training great police dogs before the invent of the prong collar. It is not necessary, just a useful tool in the right hands.


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## selzer

The guillotine was developed as a more humane method of execution. It used to take several wacks to get a head completely off, unless you were more fortunate and could pay extra so that they would sharpen the axe. 

Ah well, I could care less about prong collars, but I would be kicking and screaming if they tried to pass such a bill here. There is something to be said about wanting smaller government. We can't afford to get all the meth labs shut down and clean up the heroine problem here, why in the world would we go around ticketing people for the type of dog collar they are using to train their dog? 

Do they ban riding crops there? People should go out with their dogs on their flat collars, wherever PETA people and AR people are congregating, and when the dog steps beyond it's allowable HEEL position, a nice solid smack with the riding crop should be given. And when the AR/PETA people complain, say, "well, I can't use a correction collar, but this here crop is perfectly legal." 

If someone wants to abuse a dog, they can do so without any specific training tool.


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> People were training great police dogs before the invent of the prong collar. It is not necessary, just a useful tool in the right hands.


Agreed....that was my point.

In countries where they are no longer used dogs are still being trained.
Personally I think banning them is crazy but it doesn't mean you cant train hard dogs without them.....that is just plain silly.

Never had to smack a dog with a riding crop either but each to their own


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## selzer

sparra said:


> Agreed....that was my point.
> 
> In countries where they are no longer used dogs are still being trained.
> Personally I think banning them is crazy but it doesn't mean you cant train hard dogs without them.....that is just plain silly.
> 
> Never had to smack a dog with a riding crop either but each to their own


No, that would just be for your AR people's benefit.


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## Liz&Anna

misslesleedavis1 said:


> View attachment 181018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here it is,


I'm still reading through the thread but HAD to comment.... -_- ..... That is all


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## Blanketback

@David: I don't know the complete history of dog training, but there is a picture of a barbed collar in Stephanitz' book - looking very similar to the prong collar. I suspect that the prong collar was invented long before dogs were used in police work.


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## Liz&Anna

sparra said:


> Same over here.....I find it funny that people can't imagine training without them.
> Police dogs over here wear check chains.......:shocked:


I understand that there are other training methods, and to be honest I was 100% AGAINST choke collars and prong collars and E collars before I got Anna. I use to look at those people and wonder why they would use such a thing, I didn't understand them and thought all training could be done through love and treats and being positive, I was all about focusing on what the dog was doing correctly and marking that behavior in the likelihood that it would be repeated and that the unwanted behavior would not (since it wasnt rewarded or acknowledged).... And then there was Anna.... It's like a new era in dog training opened up for me. She is my first working dog, and the hardest most reactive dog I have ever had the privilege to know. I now understand the use of these tools. I would LOVE to see an all positive trainer work her on a flat....in fact I would actually had a good laugh at it, because I myself was once in the same shoes. Until you have worked a dog like her, it is totally unfair to judge or give advice. I realize once apun a time police and military or whoever- didn't use these tools and were still able to train these types of dogs, but were there dogs at the same level some of the working dogs of today are??? After a few dozens of more selective bred generations have come to be? We had to evolve our methods as we evolved our lines, am I wrong?


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## Liz&Anna

Also is a check chain a choke? Or a dominant dog collar? If so, honestly I for one prefer a little pinch over suffocation. (I'm not quite at the point where it is needed yet, though I have trouble with Anna's "out")


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## David Winners

Blanketback said:


> @David: I don't know the complete history of dog training, but there is a picture of a barbed collar in Stephanitz' book - looking very similar to the prong collar. I suspect that the prong collar was invented long before dogs were used in police work.


I'd like to see it if you can find a link.

I am basing my theory on what was used in the 70s - 80s the Koehler era if you will. 

David Winners


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## Blanketback

David, it's on page 831, fig. 658. It's labelled "Training collar Torquatus" and there's a plug for it on page 833 where it's called a "Forquatus" - unfortunately I don't know which is correct since this is the English translation from the original German.


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## David Winners

Thanks. I made a note of it. I don't have my copy with me. 

I appreciate you looking it up!

David Winners


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## Blanketback

No problem  But there's no way I'm bending that binding back to scan it, sorry. I'm sure you understand, lol.


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## David Winners

Oh yes. Mine was my mother's. I haven't opened it in years.


My history is desperately lacking. I really do need to devote more of my reading time to history and not theory. I'm definitely not a balanced reader.

David Winners


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## sparra

Liz&Anna said:


> I understand that there are other training methods, and to be honest I was 100% AGAINST choke collars and prong collars and E collars before I got Anna. I use to look at those people and wonder why they would use such a thing, I didn't understand them and thought all training could be done through love and treats and being positive, I was all about focusing on what the dog was doing correctly and marking that behavior in the likelihood that it would be repeated and that the unwanted behavior would not (since it wasnt rewarded or acknowledged).... And then there was Anna.... It's like a new era in dog training opened up for me. She is my first working dog, and the hardest most reactive dog I have ever had the privilege to know. I now understand the use of these tools. I would LOVE to see an all positive trainer work her on a flat....in fact I would actually had a good laugh at it, because I myself was once in the same shoes. Until you have worked a dog like her, it is totally unfair to judge or give advice. I realize once apun a time police and military or whoever- didn't use these tools and were still able to train these types of dogs, but were there dogs at the same level some of the working dogs of today are??? After a few dozens of more selective bred generations have come to be? We had to evolve our methods as we evolved our lines, am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am not judging you or giving advice......simply pointing out that if you lived over here a prong wouldn't be an option so you would find another way......I have a WL dog and a prong in the early days would have been a good tool for me and if I had access to one I would have used one...I got by without it cause I had no choice.
Dogs are being trained without them......this was my point.......I have nothing against prongs or you using one......half your luck


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## misslesleedavis1

So, tyson down graded tonight from prong to the gentle leader. So far I seem to be getting better results with the gentle leader. 

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## Blitzkrieg1

Apparently this law only applies to kennels with over 5 dogs.. Thats what I heard at IPO today from people that know the IPO folks in Quebec..


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## Chip18

Liz&Anna said:


> I'm still reading through the thread but HAD to comment.... -_- ..... That is all
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


OMG!! You should post a warning before putting up stuff like that! I almost choked on my drink!!!


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## Chip18

Liz&Anna said:


> I understand that there are other training methods, and to be honest I was 100% AGAINST choke collars and prong collars and E collars before I got Anna. I use to look at those people and wonder why they would use such a thing, I didn't understand them and thought all training could be done through love and treats and being positive, I was all about focusing on what the dog was doing correctly and marking that behavior in the likelihood that it would be repeated and that the unwanted behavior would not (since it wasnt rewarded or acknowledged).... And then there was Anna.... It's like a new era in dog training opened up for me. She is my first working dog, and the hardest most reactive dog I have ever had the privilege to know. I now understand the use of these tools. I would LOVE to see an all positive trainer work her on a flat....in fact I would actually had a good laugh at it, because I myself was once in the same shoes. Until you have worked a dog like her, it is totally unfair to judge or give advice. I realize once apun a time police and military or whoever- didn't use these tools and were still able to train these types of dogs, but were there dogs at the same level some of the working dogs of today are??? After a few dozens of more selective bred generations have come to be? We had to evolve our methods as we evolved our lines, am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think it's safe to say "most" folks have not dealt with a hard dog! I have, I screwed up on the whole pack leader thing and wound up in "Rank Drive World" with a Aggressive Dominant Male GSD...way beyond the point of clicker and NILF training! 

Clicker and NILF training is not gonna cut it!


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## motoxbmx

Being from Quebec, I am wondering about this law and if it has actually passed or if it is just in the making. Though it doesn't really affect me, there are so many bigger issues here, it's almost a slap in the face that when they decide to take an interest and action regarding animal welfare laws, it's over something like this. According to MAPAQ's site, prongs and e-collars are now deemed unacceptable, not sure if it's going to be enforced or what, but that is what it says (and with pictures). http://www.mapaq.gouv.qc.ca/fr/Publications/Guide_reglement_chats_chiens.pdf . 

Section 26 states that "The animal's collar must not impede breathing or cause pain or injury". 

Why are prong and electric collars being singled out? Any collar can cause pain and/or injury when misused, including those that don't seem to cause harm, such as regular flat collars (constant tracheal pressure/choking if dog is pulling) and head halters (risk of cervical injury). My friend used a Halti on his GSD and the dog saw a rabbit and lunged and got it's head whipped back. I really don't trust those things on some dogs, not matter how "safe" and "gentle" people think they are. 

I think you need to know your dog and choose tools that work for your dog and your situation, your desired results, etc. If you are unable to make that choice on your own, seek professional help. I have a very soft dog that I would never use a prong on, doesn't mean I think prongs are bad for all dogs. I have a very prey driven dog that I would never put a Halti on, doesn't mean I think Haltis are bad for all dogs.


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## glowingtoadfly

By the skin of our teeth we are training a hard working line with a clicker, treats and a ball. No prong. Can't say she hasn't made it hard, but the deeper bond is worth working without compulsion training.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> By the skin of our teeth we are training a hard working line with a clicker, treats and a ball. No prong. Can't say she hasn't made it hard, but the deeper bond is worth working without compulsion training.


 
How do you know your bond is deeper? Ill guarentee you if the dog is truly hard your obedience will never be reliable under distraction unless you have that ball..

I think what makes a deep bond is clear communication and expectations from the get go. Dog is feels safe and comfortable knowing what brings success and what brings consequences. Compulsion free training is more to do with the human then the dog imo.


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## glowingtoadfly

This has actually been an ongoing discussion between my husband and I. He comes from a long line of prong collar users who love leerburg. I am more into compulsion free training, love Nicole Wilde and Patricia Mc Connell. We decided to use positive training with her because we dont think she would react well to a prong, because she is easily aroused and has struggled as a teen with impulse control and being over threshold, specifically with mouthing. So far, we have rules and expectations and use time outs and clicker training, firm nos and redirection. With two in the house and a ball possessive girl ( she came to us guarding her ball from humans) we have definitely been struggling a bit switching over to food for rewards instead, because we know she would guard her ball from another dog, and ball is her motivator over food and rest. She was recently trying to play ball on an ice injured paw through the pain. Recently she has been willing to defend her right to play in the backyard longer with mouthing and refusing to come inside. We are working on obedience without ball but I know she will test us. She recently became ready to get into a class at the humane society so i think that having basic obedience there when she is distracted will help. I believe we have a deep bond but don't question the bond different kinds of trainers have with their dogs. I think it is different, but no less, if that makes sense.


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## glowingtoadfly

My parents & his parents use choke/ prong collars with their dogs and the bond is very deep with their dogs. I guess I just feel that, personally, using that kind of training with my dog is not right for me or her.


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## Blitzkrieg1

No offence because you sound like you just want whats best for the dog but those issues are very easy to fix.
You have a working line dog 99% of trainers dont understand how to work a dog like that. They make up all sorts of nonsense because they dont understand the drives and temperments these dogs have. 

If it where me I would not stop using the ball, just get a conflict free out on the dog. Nothing like some good ball drive!
I also have a dog with low threshholds thats easily aroused. Prong used properly has done wonders for her impulse control and achieving compliance. This notion that the prong hypes dogs up is another myth that is commonly spread by the non compulsion crowd.
Your dog sounds like a dog that has a bit of a backbone and some drive. Her behaviors are typical of a puppy that doesnt have a clear system of consequences and rewards. See NILF. Such a dog needs black and white. Your issues will be fixed in no time at all.

Purely positive training might work well for some low drive shelties or labs but thats not what you have by any stretch. 

If I where you I wouldnt bother with the Humane Society go to your local IPO club that understands how to properly train a GSD. All JMO.


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## glowingtoadfly

She has actually been doing better with mouthing since we moved to a house in a less urban, dog dense neighborhood with a bigger yard for her to burn off energy, and since we got her a brother to appropriately play with using her mouth. She hasn't mouthed on a walk in a month. Last night she did, but it was because it had been her long day in her crate, she hadn't been out all day, and she didn't want to come in from playing with her brother and instead of putting a leash on or enticing her with her ball I tried to pull her in by her collar. Handler mistake. The local IPO club is two hours away... We joined the German shepherd dog club, but there were too many dogs in the class for her and she just wasn't over her hand shyness enough yet to be able to participate. Also, they used leash corrections and prongs combined with treats. She just couldn't focus. At the class I brought her to at the humane society ( it was a one time recall class) they used clickers and there were fewer dogs to distract her and she LOVED it, did great, was able to focus because of the clicker. They do have agility at the club and I think eventually she might be ready to take some classes there but right now she focuses best with the clicker in my opinion. Thank you for the advice, you are echoing what my husband sometimes says. It drove him nuts when we had a positive only behaviorist come over to help us with the hand shyness and mouthing because he believed that the type of dog she is requires more stern training. Our breeder uses positive training with her dogs and doesn't seem to approve of prongs, so I think it is possible to train this type of dog positively. She trains and titles her dogs in SAR, schutzhund, flyball, etc.


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## MariandMika

I live in Norway and people have stopped using prongs and e collars ages ago. Prongs are banned. Still we have good police and military dogs  I believe in positive training, but I have never had a hard dog, so I might change my mind when Mika gets older


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## Gwenhwyfair

The dog pictured in this article discussing Norwegian border patrol shows some type of 'hardware' around its neck. It may be a prong or a choke chain, which is just as harmful (if not more) and/or cruel if improperly used.

Further the significance of 'hardware' is a clear indicator that some form of physical non-positive training methods are being used by your military.

Testing 18 months compulsory military service | Barentsobserver


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## MariandMika

As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you


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## Gwenhwyfair

You're missing the point (or deflecting) and it has *nothing* to do with my dog or your opinion.

You wrote "we still have good police and military dogs" to support your stance.

....and I posted a link to an article showing a *Norwegian MILITARY* dog with either a prong or choke chain. I'm leaning to it's probably a metal choke chain.

So the point is, you have "good police and military dogs" but according to the evidence I presented they are being trained with choke chains (possibly prongs). That equipment is indicative that YOUR military is using some type of 'correction' based methodology in their training using a metal collar.

This happens often. Prongs may be banned but that does NOT mean your police and military dogs are being trained without equipment that, for practical purposes, utilizes the same methodology you think went extinct upon your country banning prongs.

Further, are you aware if your police or military imports dogs that were already started in countries like Germany? In which case the foundation training was laid with the probability of prongs and other equipment of that nature having been used.

From the article, look at what the leash is attached to:












MariandMika said:


> As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In other words, there's a lot of layers to this onion that you aren't aware of, especially in military applications. 

So just don't get too smug about your 'prong ban'.

One thing is for sure, I'd rather people be open and honest about their training methods. I can't imagine top bite sport competitors from Norway are forgoing the use of ecollars or prongs either, they're just using them behind closed doors.

We here in the U.S. need to be vigilant that this sort of false morality doesn't become 'law' here, that's for sure!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

MariandMika said:


> As far as I know, prongs are illegal to use by any dog trainer in Norway. But for some reason they are still allowed to sell them. But it's generally seen as abuse here. But this debate is so controversial I don't want to argue. Your dog, your choice. But my opinion and if you choose to care or not is up to you


 
Haha I guarentee 99% of those dogs are trained with prongs, chokes and E collars. Im betting plenty of the dogs come from Belgium and Holland where the methods they use would make your toes curl. Hard dogs, hard training and no excuses or BS. 
I would love to see a truly hard/strong dog trained and worked on the street with positive re enforcement only.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...and let's hope this Ukraine/Russia deal settles down, getting scary, but if it doesn't it'll be the US 'over there', with guys like David Winners and dogs trained with prongs and such to help, defend and protect.


----------



## björn

Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden too, and as far as I know plenty of people train without these tools. Chokechains are allowed and of course these may not be nicer to use compared to light pop on a prong. But it´s not like you have to choose between all positive or never some form of correction just because you can´t use these tools, I doubt however a skilled trainer can´t train a dog without the "power" of prong or e-collar and this has much to do how "tough" a dog is. Why else do people get problems with tough dogs even if they are free to use prongs or e-collars? If banning tools is correct can be discussed, I´m not so intressted in that discussion, in the end all tools can be missused and you can´t ban stupidity.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You're missing the point (or deflecting) and it has *nothing* to do with my dog or your opinion.
> 
> You wrote "we still have good police and military dogs" to support your stance.
> 
> ....and I posted a link to an article showing a *Norwegian MILITARY* dog with either a prong or choke chain. I'm leaning to it's probably a metal choke chain.
> 
> So the point is, you have "good police and military dogs" but according to the evidence I presented they are being trained with choke chains (possibly prongs). That equipment is indicative that YOUR military is using some type of 'correction' based methodology in their training using a metal collar.
> 
> This happens often. Prongs may be banned but that does NOT mean your police and military dogs are being trained without equipment that, for practical purposes, utilizes the same methodology you think went extinct upon your country banning prongs.
> 
> Further, are you aware if your police or military imports dogs that were already started in countries like Germany? In which case the foundation training was laid with the probability of prongs and other equipment of that nature having been used.
> 
> From the article, look at what the leash is attached to:


I don't believe Maria and Mika was deflecting here, simply stating his/her experience with an open mind to other viewpoints. The slight venom I detect is unwarranted.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

*sigh*. Really?

You're missing the point too, definately *not* deflecting.


So I'll explain, I do NOT care how she, or you, train your personal dogs. I didn't address that at all. 

I pointed out an inaccurate perception she held regarding the use of training equipment on *Military* dogs specifically.

She responded as many people do when something they hold to be correct turns out not to be, by making it out to be about her personally. IMO it's very rude when people do that, therefore I will be blunt in return but it will about the topic not the person.

In other words "you can't handle the truth" applies and does not denote 'venom' on my part.

I don't like to get personal, for instance I would have never addressed Carmen as you did, nor would I address you that way, unless YOU want to go there first.

The problem is people want to be Molly coddled and their 'opinion' treated like a fragile precious entity, it's not, it's an opinion and sometimes people's opinions are wrong.

Further if you think that's 'venom' then you aren't going to last very long on this site because you've not seen anything yet.



glowingtoadfly said:


> I don't believe Maria and Mika was deflecting here, simply stating his/her experience with an open mind to other viewpoints. The slight venom I detect is unwarranted.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yes and some of the conventional wisdom is that choke chains, misused, can cause more physical damage then a prong.

What you say (in blue) is true - but it also follows then that banning the tools isn't the answer, so why do it?

What it does do, as seen by our Norwegian friend, is lend a sense of false security because the general public perceives the tool as the problem, not the misuse. That is why I called it 'false morality law' because as you rightly point out it's not the tool, it's the human using it.




björn said:


> Prongs and e-collars are forbidden in sweden too, and as far as I know plenty of people train without these tools. Chokechains are allowed and of course these may not be nicer to use compared to light pop on a prong. But it´s not like you have to choose between all positive or never some form of correction just because you can´t use these tools, I doubt however a skilled trainer can´t train a dog without the "power" of prong or e-collar and this has much to do how "tough" a dog is. Why else do people get problems with tough dogs even if they are free to use prongs or e-collars? If banning tools is correct can be discussed, I´m not so intressted in that discussion, in the end all tools can be missused and you can´t ban stupidity.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *sigh*. Really?
> 
> You're missing the point too, definately *not* deflecting.
> 
> 
> So I'll explain, I do NOT care how she, or you, train your personal dogs. I didn't address that at all.
> 
> I pointed out an inaccurate perception she held regarding the use of training equipment on *Military* dogs specifically.
> 
> She responded as many people do when something they hold to be correct turns out not to be, by making it out to be about her personally. IMO it's very rude when people do that, therefore I will be blunt in return but it will about the topic not the person.
> 
> In other words "you can't handle the truth" applies and does not denote 'venom' on my part.
> 
> I don't like to get personal, for instance I would have never addressed Carmen as you did, nor would I address you that way, unless YOU want to go there first.
> 
> The problem is people want to be Molly coddled and their 'opinion' treated like a fragile precious entity, it's not, it's an opinion and sometimes people's opinions are wrong.
> 
> Further if you think that's 'venom' then you aren't going to last very long on this site because you've not seen anything yet.


I meant that the all caps were unwarranted. That, to me, denotes venom. I did not see any personalization of the issue by Maria and Mika, could you point out what you see please? Also, no need to bring up a past issue as it clouds the current discussion, and Merciel expressed my reasons for being upset at Carmen quite beautifully in another thread today, and this one is too interesting to be shut down for OT.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's not caps, it's bolded and really, if you think that's being too harsh then you just wait and I don't care what you think about that, it's silly. 

Doesn't matter what someone else said. I've been in disagreement with Carmen, Sue, dani fani, blanket back and can do so without making it personal. So my advice would be to not worry about the 'tone' of others. 

O.K. One more time - I didn't say anything about M&M's dogs or her preferred training method. *She* did in her response, in lieu of addressing the article and pic I posted in response specifically to military dogs.

Now why do you think she totally avoided mentioning the article or pic which was the only aspect I addressed?

I know why...do you?




glowingtoadfly said:


> I meant that the all caps were unwarranted. That, to me, denotes venom. I did not see any personalization of the issue by Maria and Mika, could you point out what you see please? Also, no need to bring up a past issue as it clouds the current discussion, and Merciel expressed my reasons for being upset at Carmen quite beautifully in another thread today, and this one is too interesting to be shut down for OT.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.

Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.

So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

... The working dog in the photo was wearing a correction collar. It could have been a stock photo.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I believe that choke collars are more potentially abusive than prongs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's a choke chain from what I can see in the photo. It's metal and definately some type of correction collar.

As to the photo it's tagged to a current article and it agrees with what M&M stated, prongs and e collars are banned...not choke chains therefore it's an accurate representation.

Below, that's my understanding as well, but I'm sure there's been abuse with prongs too. Humans can be very cruel critters.... 




glowingtoadfly said:


> I believe that choke collars are more potentially abusive than prongs.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.
> 
> Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.
> 
> So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.


So you are saying that people who are too rough with their dogs will always be that way, and banning correction tools will not stop the abuse? On the other hand, there has recently been a cultural shift towards positive dog training and I think these laws on correction tools effect that. There was recently an article I read online about a correction trainer who stopped walking dogs at a humane society because leash corrections are no longer allowed. I will try to find the article. Anyway, disallowing the use of prongs and choke collars as well as ecollars will prevent abusive owners from hurting
dogs. Isn't that a good thing?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

glowingtoadfly said:


> Gwenhwyfair said:
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, the important discussion here should be about whether bans like this will make a difference. My premise is they won't because as has been mentioned by others it's not the tool, it's the human that misuses tools and even flat collars can be abusive.
> 
> Furthermore the fact that countries/provinces ban prongs but still allow the use of choke chains illustrates two problems 1) it only shifts potential abusive training practices from one tool to another or trainers use the tools behind closed doors. 2) it creates a false perception of where the problem really lies it should be over the top methods (as opposed to the tools) the choke chain will be used instead of the prong.
> 
> So what's the point of these laws other then for certain groups to "feel" better but all the while nothing has really changed.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying that people who are too rough with their dogs will always be that way, and banning correction tools will not stop the abuse? On the other hand, there has recently been a cultural shift towards positive dog training and I think these laws on correction tools eflect that. There was recently an article I read online about a correction trainer who stopped walking dogs at a humane society because leash corrections are no longer allowed. I will try to find the article. Anyway, disallowing the use of prongs and choke collars as well as ecollars will prevent abusive owners from hurting
> dogs. Isn't that a good thing?
Click to expand...

Yes. That is what I (and others) are saying but it's only one part of the premise.

I disagree that the shift is going totally in one direction culturally. In fact there's increasing push back from 'balanced trainers'. In some cases PO trainers have been caught being so extreme as to put dogs down because their methods weren't working. 

I posted one blog article about this earlier in this thread about the push back.

I doubt you'll see a ban on prongs in this country and I for one will fight against it because prongs used correctly can and have saved dogs too! That's a good thing!


----------



## björn

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes and some of the conventional wisdom is that choke chains, misused, can cause more physical damage then a prong.
> 
> What you say (in blue) is true - but it also follows then that banning the tools isn't the answer, so why do it?
> 
> What it does do, as seen by our Norwegian friend, is lend a sense of false security because the general public perceives the tool as the problem, not the misuse. That is why I called it 'false morality law' because as you rightly point out it's not the tool, it's the human using it.
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]


Why is it strange that you can see a legal chokechain on militarydogs in norway as an example, have anyone claimed just because prongs or e-collars are forbiddeen no one uses any type of corrections or legal collars? You can probably find many using only leathercollars too. And yes a chokechain can be missused, but so can prongs and e-collars, the key here is missuse I guess, it´s not like just because a person use a prong the dog "suffers" less than with a choke, or the other way around. But yes, a person who deliver hard corrections on a choke time after time is probably going to hurt the dog more than a skilled person using a prong with care, but then it´s more about the person.

The question why those tools is banned is probably different views/cultures on dogtraining, laws and a attempt to set the limit somewhere based on previous missuse, one part may also be of course some thinks for example a prongs looks "evil" and e-collars have a bad reputation. The development of trainingmethods has also played a part compared to older times where training was more about corrections and force the dog to do things. However I sense there is a more balanced views on the raise again, away from "extremists" on both sides, but I don´t know if this has so much to do with e-collars or prongs, the general view will probably be that if you must have these tools and "legal" alternatives isn´t enough then something has gone wrong in the training.


----------



## Blanketback

The other thing to consider is the fact that humans are a creative bunch. If there's isn't a correction collar in the toolbox, then it's an easy DIY project. Just get a good leather collar and put some screws it it, and voila. This would be such an incredibly ridiculous thing to do, IMO, when you have a perfectly good and safe alternative in the prong. I doubt they're banned because of previous misuse, or else animal cruelty laws would be much stricter - and much better enforced in the first place.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks for your input! Also the culture is here as well, there are folks here in the U.S. who would want that sort of ban in place too. As per this thread it's happening in Canada, so it's not just the Euro countries.

In blue, but that's not the point, right?

I understand where you are coming from but the problem is bans are being put in place and it's going to be a fight to repeal/get rid of them. Good point about them looking 'evil' and that's due to lack of understanding coupled with groups that have an agenda. So IMO it's best to push back now.

Here is the reasoning I use:

If a ban is put in place to stop the use of the prong because it's considered 'abusive' and the abusive behavior continues behind closed doors or with other tools what is accomplished? 

Further, is there any concrete evidence that prongs *are* being used so abusively by SO many people that a law like that is justified?

OR is it that the PO people want to force their way of thinking and training on everyone else.

Often laws like these are based on mythology, NOT what's happening in reality. 

You may have seen, on the internet, a picture of a dog with prong marks in it's neck. It looked like someone had left the prong on while the dog grew and it became embedded. This picture was/is being used as a campaign against the use of prong collars, it was agenda driven, not factually based.

Many more people use and abuse flat collars so why not ban flat collars as well if we use that line of thought?

The reason is because some groups have decided they don't like prongs and wish to enforce their beliefs onto others. That's wrong on a lot of levels in addition to being plain illogical.

Here is a picture of dog that had an embedded flat collar:
















björn said:


> Why is it strange that you can see a legal chokechain on militarydogs in norway as an example, have anyone claimed just because prongs or e-collars are forbiddeen no one uses any type of corrections or legal collars? You can probably find many using only leathercollars too. And yes a chokechain can be missused, but so can prongs and e-collars, the key here is missuse I guess, it´s not like just because a person use a prong the dog "suffers" less than with a choke, or the other way around. But yes, a person who deliver hard corrections on a choke time after time is probably going to hurt the dog more than a skilled person using a prong with care, but then it´s more about the person.
> 
> The question why those tools is banned is probably different views/cultures on dogtraining, laws and a attempt to set the limit somewhere based on previous missuse, one part may also be of course some thinks for example a prongs looks "evil" and e-collars have a bad reputation. The development of trainingmethods has also played a part compared to older times where training was more about corrections and force the dog to do things. However I sense there is a more balanced views on the raise again, away from "extremists" on both sides, but I don´t know if this has so much to do with e-collars or prongs, the general view will probably be that if you must have these tools and "legal" alternatives isn´t enough then something has gone wrong in the training.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

True!

I was thinking about it this morning (driving home from tracking practice on this beautiful AM ) .

We don't ban alcohol (any longer!) to stop drunk drivers, what happened to reduce drunk driving was two fold, education AND much harsher fines when caught.

Also, I really think we've got much bigger problems with animals abuse in the form of neglect, beating, breeding irresponsibly and so on that causes much more suffering then people who may be misusing equipment while training. Though it exists, IMO, it's not an epidemic problem like puppy mills and over flowing kill shelters. 




Blanketback said:


> The other thing to consider is the fact that humans are a creative bunch. If there's isn't a correction collar in the toolbox, then it's an easy DIY project. Just get a good leather collar and put some screws it it, and voila. This would be such an incredibly ridiculous thing to do, IMO, when you have a perfectly good and safe alternative in the prong. I doubt they're banned because of previous misuse, or else animal cruelty laws would be much stricter - and much better enforced in the first place.


----------



## björn

Gwenhwyfair, what goes behind close doors we can´t do much about I suppose. You don´t need a collar to inflict serious pain on a dog either, but the law here doesn´t say it´s OK to abuse dogs with chokes or other methods either, what is abuse and serious pain is of course a bit hard to define.

How many "abuse" these tools I don´t know, but of course there are people using all tools in a less "nice" and skilled way if you look around, and as I said the view/culture on treating animals are not the same in every country. The issue people in general seems to have with these tools are probably that we have better methods to train dogs nowadays, so why use tools and harsh methods that was common in former times if you don´t need it, especially for dogs used for fun and sport. I think this is also true for top trainers regardless where you live and what tools you use, the training is more motivational and "smarter" today than it was not so long ago.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Bjorn 

While some of your points stand on their own, they do not support laws banning prong collars.

They also don't address the positives of prong collars and trainers who have used them successfully with dogs that may have been otherwise deemed unadoptable by PO trainers.

A law (of any kind) should not be put in place banning something unless A) there is significant evidence showing the abusive behavior exists in a large enough sample of instances. B). The law has the potential to really make a difference.

Thus far these prong bans fail both of those tests (and others I mentioned earlier) therefore it's illogical, unnecessary. In the absence of real concrete reasons I ask again, why? Taking a tool away from many to make some people "feel" better or further a particular groups agenda is not acceptable.

We shouldn't ban a tool because it 'looks evil', we shouldn't take it away because a few have been abusive with it.

Makes no sense what so ever and it's limiting many honest good trainers who did not misuse the tool.

How can a law be justified when there's no evidence the item being banned has caused significant suffering?

(Also, to clarify when speaking of culture I'm referring to the US and countries like Norway and Sweden, not Latin, African, or undeveloped areas of the world.)



björn said:


> Gwenhwyfair, what goes behind close doors we can´t do much about I suppose. You don´t need a collar to inflict serious pain on a dog either, but the law here doesn´t say it´s OK to abuse dogs with chokes or other methods either, what is abuse and serious pain is of course a bit hard to define.
> 
> How many "abuse" these tools I don´t know, but of course there are people using all tools in a less "nice" and skilled way if you look around, and as I said the view/culture on treating animals are not the same in every country. The issue people in general seems to have with these tools are probably that we have better methods to train dogs nowadays, so why use tools and harsh methods that was common in former times if you don´t need it, especially for dogs used for fun and sport. I think this is also true for top trainers regardless where you live and what tools you use, the training is more motivational and "smarter" today than it was not so long ago.


----------



## Baillif

Dogs can very quickly be motivated to escape prong collar or e collar pressure. Plenty of motivation to be had there. Food and play are great too. They can ban them if they want. It wont change anything. You can just do the same stuff with a foot a leg a hand a stick or a slip collar. The people who were ham fisted with the e collars the prongs or whatever will continue to be ham fisted in other ways and thats assuming they dont ignore the bans outright. They could easily make behaviors behind closed doors and maintain them through other means outside of that.

Stupid bans
Uninformed people behind them
Doesnt affect me in the slightest though.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Also, regarding the evolution of training, my background is more with horses but what I have observed is cycles. Alexander the Great spoke about horse training where he emphasized what is now called Natural Horsemanship and is largely force free. In more recent history methods had become abusive and even simple tools like ropes used to yank a horse off its feet could be considered abusive 'tools'. No one banned ropes. What happened was some trainers, like Monty Roberts of 'the horse whisperer' fame pushed back on some these extremely harsh methods. So I see it as more of a pendulum swing rather then a linear progression. I also see the PO people proselytizing too much while their dogs drag them off down the path.....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Doesn't affect you, yet.



Baillif said:


> Dogs can very quickly be motivated to escape prong collar or e collar pressure. Plenty of motivation to be had there. Food and play are great too. They can ban them if they want. It wont change anything. You can just do the same stuff with a foot a leg a hand a stick or a slip collar. The people who were ham fisted with the e collars the prongs or whatever will continue to be ham fisted in other ways and thats assuming they dont ignore the bans outright. They could easily make behaviors behind closed doors and maintain them through other means outside of that.
> 
> Stupid bans
> Uninformed people behind them
> Doesnt affect me in the slightest though.


----------



## Baillif

Meh, I like to naked train. I live in the south so legislation like that wouldnt pass anyway. Even if it did Id ignore it. Even if I couldnt im not married to any tools so it wouldnt be a big loss anyway.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

If you have to change up tools you're affected.

If you ignore the ban you're breaking the 'law' and would have to change up where, when you use the tool, you're affected.

I'd rather not have to figure out 'work arounds' to begin with, much more efficient and no one is affected, south, north, east or west to begin with. :shrug:




Baillif said:


> Meh, I like to naked train. I live in the south so legislation like that wouldnt pass anyway. Even if it did Id ignore it. Even if I couldnt im not married to any tools so it wouldnt be a big loss anyway.


----------



## selzer

It doesn't effect me and won't but I don't like the premise. The problem I see with dogs the most is lack of training and exercise. If the prong collar is being used to train and otherwise training would not occur, or if the prong collar is used to exercise and stimulate a dog where such exercise would otherwise not occur, than this can, indeed cause more problems. 

I will not buy it that prong collars are necessary for any dogs. Humans have brains and they can use them to find ways to train that do not include these tools. That doesn't mean that the tool itself is abusive, and that other methods cannot be worse than what is sometimes done with prongs. 

Every training and management tool can and has been abused. I think stronger laws for animal cruelty are much more in need than trying to stymie people from training and exercising their pooches. 

And I hate making more laws that won't be enforced. And if people are ticketed, pull energy from going after the true criminals out there to pester people for something so ridiculous, and to put money in the public coffers.


----------



## Baillif

Its not like the ecollar prong collar stazi is gonna come knock your door down looking for your dog training equipment. 

If they did so much the better. Ill write a dog training book to help people get past it. ill call it The Foot Fist Way.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hey, what can I say I'm an ounce of prevention is a heck-uva lot better then a pound of cure type of person. Just for the pure principle of it stupid laws like this should be stopped in their tracks.

Also I would not assume living in the south is going to protect you from laws like these.

If it's not highly monetized for or against then the loudest group wins. 




Baillif said:


> Its not like the ecollar prong collar stazi is gonna come knock your door down looking for your dog training equipment.
> 
> If they did so much the better. Ill write a dog training book to help people get past it. ill call it The Foot Fist Way.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Sue, the entire premise is wrong as it assume that prongs are 'more' abusive and being consistently used in an abusive way. Neither holds true because even those who support prong bans admit choke chains and other tools when misused are just as bad.

So if we just stay with that logic, then choke chains, flat collars, fur savers should be banned too. That's ridiculous but that's what happens when a law starts on a false premise (myth) rather then actual facts and reality.

Big fail right out of the gate.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sue, the entire premise is wrong as it assume that prongs are 'more' abusive and being consistently used in an abusive way. Neither holds true because even those who support prong bans admit choke chains and other tools when misused are just as bad.
> 
> So if we just stay with that logic, then choke chains, flat collars, fur savers should be banned too. That's ridiculous but that's what happens when a law starts on a false premise (myth) rather then actual facts and reality.
> 
> Big fail right out of the gate.


You're preaching to the choir, but what are you going to do about it?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Edumicate people. . Have the loudest voice(s)

Also, amongst trainers and other forums I'm on there is starting to be a pushback on this. I posted a blog by a trainer earlier in this thread discussing just that, it's time to speak out. I can try to find the article and relink it if you would like to read it.



selzer said:


> You're preaching to the choir, but what are you going to do about it?


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Edumicate people. . Have the loudest voice(s)
> 
> Also, amongst trainers and other forums I'm on there is starting to be a pushback on this. I posted a blog by a trainer earlier in this thread discussing just that, it's time to speak out. I can try to find the article and relink it if you would like to read it.


No thanks, I don't have a dog in this fight, really. I have nothing to say about what Canada or Europe does, for one thing. I cannot see it happening here. If it does, then I will have to decide whether the premise of the law is enough to make me get off my fat rusty dusty and try to do anything about something I do not use or care about.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

What is happening in Europe and Canada is a warning sign and as I mentioned there's an awful lot of proselytizing going on amongst the PO camps, hence push back BEFORE it happens. Google 'ban prong collars USA' and you'll see what I'm talking about. As a matter of fact some of those groups want to ban choke chains too.

If I'm indeed preaching to the choir then you would get off your fat rusty, dusty.






selzer said:


> No thanks, I don't have a dog in this fight, really. I have nothing to say about what Canada or Europe does, for one thing. I cannot see it happening here. If it does, then I will have to decide whether the premise of the law is enough to make me get off my fat rusty dusty and try to do anything about something I do not use or care about.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What is happening in Europe and Canada is a warning sign and as I mentioned there's an awful lot of proselytizing going on amongst the PO camps, hence push back BEFORE it happens. Google 'ban prong collars USA' and you'll see what I'm talking about. As a matter of fact some of those groups want to ban choke chains too.
> 
> If I'm indeed preaching to the choir then you would get off your fat rusty, dusty.


Sometimes one must choose their battles. 

People who have their dogs altered might in premise not like madatory spay/neuter, but may not do anything about it. 

People who have two dogs may think that 4 dogs is too much for anyone and not worry at all when a limit is set at 3 dogs. 

People who don't own pit bulls may not be all that concerned when the ban them. 

I find these much more concerning than the prong collar thing. I'm not worried about e-collars or choke chains or prong collars. I am more concerned with breed bans, and limits, mandatory spay/neuter, requiring people who breed dogs to conform to standards set up for huge commercial farms.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

This is from the link earlier, I think the author does a good job explaining what is going on and why concern is necessary.

BTW- right now it's just that we need to push back against the many incorrect assumptions associated with prongs and bans. I'm not saying we have to march on the State Capitals right now (!). I do think it's time to put a foot down though and not be silent.



> I realize there are accomplished trainers who have achieved a great deal with higher drive dogs without using aversive tools. I also am very aware that in the current political climate in dog training, those same trainers would choose to keep their opinions to themselves if they thought that the tools were useful for some dogs or for some goals in training for fear of reprisal both professional and private. The result of this is that the propaganda machine gathers steam virtually unchecked. When we are afraid or reluctant to question the prevailing wisdom whether it makes sense to us or not, we are in very frightening territory indeed. The current call to live in our heads where all things are equal, black and white, instead of the real world where multiple variables create all shades of grey is opening up a huge cavernous gap in dog training.


 Pinch me, I’m dreaming…. | Guard Dog Blog


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## selzer

Don't worry, the prong collar has a firm hold with trainers in NE Ohio. 

My trainer suggests them to lots of people and a good percentage in her classes are trained with prongs. She understands my desire not to use them and leaves me be.  (I have my own reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not people abuse them.)


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## björn

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Bjorn
> 
> A law (of any kind) should not be put in place banning something unless A) there is significant evidence showing the abusive behavior exists in a large enough sample of instances. B). The law has the potential to really make a difference.
> 
> Thus far these prong bans fail both of those tests (and others I mentioned earlier) therefore it's illogical, unnecessary. In the absence of real concrete reasons I ask again, why? Taking a tool away from many to make some people "feel" better or further a particular groups agenda is not acceptable.
> 
> We shouldn't ban a tool because it 'looks evil', we shouldn't take it away because a few have been abusive with it.
> 
> Makes no sense what so ever and it's limiting many honest good trainers who did not misuse the tool.
> 
> How can a law be justified when there's no evidence the item being banned has caused significant suffering?


Well, the difference it has made is fewer people use prongs and e-collars becaus it´s illegal. The core of the issue is of course the idea that why do you need to have an e-collar or prong to start with, the main use of these tool is to get a more powerfull correction, otherwise people could train with legal collars and methods, or isn´t this correct? If it´s normal to use prongs and e-collars from all to petdogs to policedogs in other countries this will not convince many here this is a better way and we should allow this again and have more tolerance for training that will make your toe curls as someone put it earlier. Then I think many realize there isn´t much difference between a skilled trainer in let´s say belgium that may use a prong wisely while another trainer in norway/sweden uses the same level of "acceptable" correction thru other methods, but then again it´s a question if it really is a problem if you get good results without it.


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## Baillif

I dont use prong collars for a more powerful "c word." They are most useful to me as a tool i can use to get subtle and precise behaviors with minimal effort. Do i use them to punish sometimes? Yeah. E collars to me are more useful to provide quick consequences at a distance. If i wanted a more powerful correction i could just use a stick.


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## Gwenhwyfair

First: A lot of trainers openly and humanely use e collars and prongs with dogs that, well for lack of better words, kick you know what, in competition (Michael Ellis is a good example) as mentioned in the article I linked earlier. Bailiff has posted pics of his dogs performing, he uses prongs and his dogs perform happily for him. 

Secondly: There is NO concrete tested evidence that better results can be gotten without prong collars or that the other extreme PO consistently achieves results.

Again, the problem is you cannot logically support a prong ban, through evidence or fact based reasons.

The only reason these prong bans are being put in place is because of propaganda and misunderstanding.

Why? Well to be blunt human nature, it's to make the PO crowd feel better, even if a lot of them are getting dragged around the dog park like rag dolls by their dogs. 

1) Prong bans don't change training methods 
2) Prong bans will lead to the use of other tools and /or push training behind closed doors
3) Prong bans are leading to bans on other tools like choke chains

There are, in the U.S. at least, quite literally PO people who have wanted to put dogs to sleep that when put in the hands of a 'balanced' trainer that uses prongs or e collars the dogs were saved.

There are quite a few negatives and downsides to banning prongs and no real upside.

I'll try to find the article about that and link it.






björn said:


> Well, the difference it has made is fewer people use prongs and e-collars becaus it´s illegal. The core of the issue is of course the idea that *why do you need to have an e-collar or prong to start with, *the main use of these tool is to get a more powerfull correction, otherwise people could train with legal collars and methods, or isn´t this correct? If it´s normal to use prongs and e-collars from all to petdogs to policedogs in other countries this will not convince many here this is a better way and we should allow this again and have more tolerance for training that will make your toe curls as someone put it earlier. Then I think many realize there isn´t much difference between a skilled trainer in let´s say belgium that may use a prong wisely while another trainer in norway/sweden uses the same level of "acceptable" correction thru other methods, but then again it´s a question if it really is a problem if you get good results without it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The Silent Killer: 



> You see, rewards are used primarily to create new behavior and offer little to no assistance in communicating to a dog that a certain behavior is unacceptable. However, *millions of dogs are killed in this country every year because of behaviors that are deemed “unacceptable.”* The AF fanatics have made such a roar that the majority of shelters and rescues have adopted an aversive free philosophy within their organizations. Why? Well probably a few reasons. For one, it sounds great on paper to say that you only reward dogs, and _never_ punish with aversives. Secondly, *they have drank the kool-aid. *The aversive free proponents have created such a buzz, and are so good at promoting their philosophy that they have many people believing that anything can be accomplished with reward based techniques, and that corrections are always bad and will ruin your dog forever. - See more at: Balanced Trainers | A Silent Killer - Balanced Trainers Blog - Balanced Trainers


 emphasis above NOT mine

This is a very interesting blog which discusses the hidden and often serious unintended consequences of the attitudes driving 'prong bans'


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## Gwenhwyfair

I absolutely respect an individual dog owner's choice and if it works great. 

I was an anti-prong person until I got my Smitty. I did all the aversive free things the trainer from the rescue told me to do, no dice. I couldn't take him anywhere, he had no recall, dragged me around and practically dislocated my shoulder dashing after squirrels on walks.

It was terrible, he was stuck at home and I was at a total loss. We had no relationship, no bond because he just didn't give a dang for cookies and praise.

Then thanks to training with trainers who were of the "Micheal Ellis" school things really turned around for us.

I find it very disturbing that a tool which ended up helping me and my dog so much would be taken away from other dog owners.

So while I never, never use a prong on our Aussie who is as soft as a marshmallow, on Smitty and Ilda it was tool that helped greatly.

Now I hardly use it....if it's even on them I rarely need to correct. 




selzer said:


> Don't worry, the prong collar has a firm hold with trainers in NE Ohio.
> 
> My trainer suggests them to lots of people and a good percentage in her classes are trained with prongs. She understands my desire not to use them and leaves me be. (I have my own reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not people abuse them.)


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## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The Silent Killer:
> 
> emphasis above NOT mine
> 
> This is a very interesting blog which discusses the hidden and often serious unintended consequences of the attitudes driving 'prong bans'


See, now this kind of stuff makes me want to get on the PR bandwagon and ban prongs. It is your worst argument. Positive does not equal permissive and they can definitely provide leadership so that a dog understands what is acceptable behavior and what is not. 

This suggests also that dogs that make these mistakes have not been trained with any negative means. That's totally crazy. 

The silent killer may be lack of training, or bad training. 

The idea that I cannot teach my dogs to stay off the counters or out of the trash or not to bite babies without a prong collar is ludicrous.


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## Gwenhwyfair

OMG now we're going to have 'stick bans', thanks a lot. 

...and I'm talking about the wooden bits and pieces of tree kind you find. 

Not the kind they were talking about 'banning' hits with at the FCI championships!





Baillif said:


> I dont use prong collars for a more powerful "c word." They are most useful to me as a tool i can use to get subtle and precise behaviors with minimal effort. Do i use them to punish sometimes? Yeah. E collars to me are more useful to provide quick consequences at a distance. If i wanted a more powerful correction i could just use a stick.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sue, you're back walking it too much! ETA - read the whole article, author states positive and rewards based are and can be good methods.


The dog has a problem now, it could have had the bejeebus kicked out of by the previous owner with steel toe boots, who knows, doesn't matter HOW it got the problem in past.

PO people refuse to even TRY using aversives and want the dog PTS going into the future.

That's the point, not what happened to the dog previously.





selzer said:


> See, now this kind of stuff makes me want to get on the PR bandwagon and ban prongs. It is your worst argument. Positive does not equal permissive and they can definitely provide leadership so that a dog understands what is acceptable behavior and what is not.
> 
> This suggests also that dogs that make these mistakes have not been trained with any negative means. That's totally crazy.
> 
> The silent killer may be lack of training, or bad training.
> 
> The idea that I cannot teach my dogs to stay off the counters or out of the trash or not to bite babies without a prong collar is ludicrous.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here is another bit from the article Sue, did you read it to the end?



> Again, I must restate. I have nothing against positive, rewards based dog training (I myself use positive dog training every day, it is a necessary component of a balanced approach), or those who choose the positive approach for themselves. It is the dogmatically *Aversive Free *mentality that I am speaking against. - See more at: Balanced Trainers | A Silent Killer - Balanced Trainers Blog - Balanced Trainers


 (this time, blue emphasis mine)


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## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I absolutely respect an individual dog owner's choice and if it works great.
> 
> I was an anti-prong person until I got my Smitty. I did all the aversive free things the trainer from the rescue told me to do, no dice. I couldn't take him anywhere, he had no recall, dragged me around and practically dislocated my shoulder dashing after squirrels on walks.
> 
> It was terrible, he was stuck at home and I was at a total loss. We had no relationship, no bond because he just didn't give a dang for cookies and praise.
> 
> Then thanks to training with trainers who were of the "Micheal Ellis" school things really turned around for us.
> 
> I find it very disturbing that a tool which ended up helping me and my dog so much would be taken away from other dog owners.
> 
> So while I never, never use a prong on our Aussie who is as soft as a marshmallow, on Smitty and Ilda it was tool that helped greatly.
> 
> Now I hardly use it....if it's even on them I rarely need to correct.


One must train differently if you are not going to use corrections. One failure you say, is that he had no recall. What does this mean? You called the dog and he wouldn't come? What happened then? 

A positive trainer would not use the command unless they were able to enforce the command immediately. So if the dog is in the back yard and you want the dog in, you go and get some cheese, call his name, offer the cheese, or go out and get the dog and bring him in, but you do not command the dog to come. That TEACHES the dog to ignore you. 

When the dog is on lead, you get their attention, show the treat and tell them to come, if the dog comes, then you give the treat. If the dog does not immediately start coming, you go to the dog (on lead so he isn't going anywhere else) and you bring the dog where you want the dog to be and then reward. 

Positive trainers need to find what motivates a dog. I too had a dog that could care less about treats. I had to work only with praise with her because that worked for her. Other dogs will work for a tug or a special toy. Positive trainers need to be creative sometimes. 

There are not that many trainers out there that use no negative markers whatsoever. For some dogs, lack of praise for an action is enough to understand that they did not do whatever right. For some dogs repeating the action again is enough. Negative markers for behavior do not have to be physical to be effective. 

A good trainer should have been able to help you work with that dog without a prong. You found a trainer that helped you train the dog with a prong, that's fine. The dog got trained, and you love the dog. But that doesn't mean the dog couldn't have been trained without a prong. Some trainers could have probably screwed up training this dog with a prong. 

For some dogs the prong collar can make training an easier task. And some dogs will shut down on a prong collar. Flat collars and martingales normally do not shut dogs down. It is a training collar, and a correction collar. I am not so much against them, I am against the idea that dogs will be dangerous, put down, or unmanageable without them.


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## selzer

The only thing that two trainers can agree upon is what the third trainer is doing wrong. 

Now the buzz word is balanced. 

I am not familiar with aversive free, I suppose that would be the same as purely positive. 

I don't think training should be balanced. That suggests as many corrections as rewards. I think training should be mostly fun, mostly positive, and the well-placed appropriate correction then becomes much more effective, and very little used. If that makes me balanced, that I guess it is kind of like hand-stripping which actually uses some form of tool to get the hair off the dog. (I thought that was when you plucked tufts of undercoat off the dog.) If it does not make me balanced, then I really don't care to be balanced.


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## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sue, you're back walking it too much! ETA - read the whole article, author states positive and rewards based are and can be good methods.
> 
> 
> The dog has a problem now, it could have had the bejeebus kicked out of by the previous owner with steel toe boots, who knows, doesn't matter HOW it got the problem in past.
> 
> PO people refuse to even TRY using aversives and want the dog PTS going into the future.
> 
> That's the point, not what happened to the dog previously.


I don't know. I don't know that if a dog that is clearly dangerous is run through a boot camp to show them by use of a prong collar what is acceptable and what is not, can be then "rehabilitated" to the point where I would want to own that dog. 


On the other hand, for the dog who is simply unruly, pulls on the leash, jumps up, steals from the counters, etc, boot camp with a prong collar and living with a weaker leader with a prong collar might be enough to keep someone from putting the dog down. 

So if the behavior we are talking about is lack of training, then I can see a prong collar making a difference for some people.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Smitty was a tough nut to crack. Neglected street dog rescue with no desire to please, no desire for treats,pets, attention. We spent quite a few unnecessarily unhappy years because I refused to try something different. 

Balanced training isn't about reward or (sorry bailiff) correction balance. From the balanced trainer site:



> This is a community driven site dedicated to dog training professionals and dog enthusiasts. We focus on the "balanced approach" where dog training isn't limited by a specific predefined set of rules.


So it's about not locking down into one method fits all, not whether or how much someone uses aversive a or not.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I shared the article to drive home some of the mentality driving these prong bans and the potential downsides as well.

The bans are predicated in part on that certain tools don't add any positive value to the world of dog training. That's provably not true. 

Even so there are some people who believe so fervently in that that they would rather PTS a dog then try. 



selzer said:


> I don't know. I don't know that if a dog that is clearly dangerous is run through a boot camp to show them by use of a prong collar what is acceptable and what is not, can be then "rehabilitated" to the point where I would want to own that dog.
> 
> 
> On the other hand, for the dog who is simply unruly, pulls on the leash, jumps up, steals from the counters, etc, boot camp with a prong collar and living with a weaker leader with a prong collar might be enough to keep someone from putting the dog down.
> 
> So if the behavior we are talking about is lack of training, then I can see a prong collar making a difference for some people.


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## selzer

For aggression in the Brutus thread, yeah I would PTS rather than try a prong collar. I don't think you can make an unstable dog safe by training. 

But for training, sit, down, stay come, heel, and reducing negative behaviors, like counter surfing, jumping up, car chasing -- well all that stuff, I don't think I could possibly put a dog down for being frustrated in my efforts to train the dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, Brutus was an 'over the line' case. 

I know an AF trainer who, if she can't get results blames everything and everyone else. She doesn't have the experience to deal with aggression issues at all because in her world if aversive free doesn't fix it, it's not fixable. So this evening I see a local person on a FB pet group wanting a positive only trainer to help her with her dog and aggression issues. She was referred to that trainer and didn't want any other referrals, at all, wouldn't even consider it.

Well chances are this trainer will not help her dog and blame it on???

All because the owner thinks that there's only one right way. 



selzer said:


> For aggression in the Brutus thread, yeah I would PTS rather than try a prong collar. I don't think you can make an unstable dog safe by training.
> 
> But for training, sit, down, stay come, heel, and reducing negative behaviors, like counter surfing, jumping up, car chasing -- well all that stuff, I don't think I could possibly put a dog down for being frustrated in my efforts to train the dog.


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## björn

Gwenhwyfair said:


> First: A lot of trainers openly and humanely use e collars and prongs with dogs that, well for lack of better words, kick you know what, in competition (Michael Ellis is a good example) as mentioned in the article I linked earlier. Bailiff has posted pics of his dogs performing, he uses prongs and his dogs perform happily for him.
> 
> Secondly: There is NO concrete tested evidence that better results can be gotten without prong collars or that the other extreme PO consistently achieves results.
> 
> Again, the problem is you cannot logically support a prong ban, through evidence or fact based reasons.
> 
> The only reason these prong bans are being put in place is because of propaganda and misunderstanding.
> 
> Why? Well to be blunt human nature, it's to make the PO crowd feel better, even if a lot of them are getting dragged around the dog park like rag dolls by their dogs.
> 
> 1) Prong bans don't change training methods
> 2) Prong bans will lead to the use of other tools and /or push training behind closed doors
> 3) Prong bans are leading to bans on other tools like choke chains
> 
> There are, in the U.S. at least, quite literally PO people who have wanted to put dogs to sleep that when put in the hands of a 'balanced' trainer that uses prongs or e collars the dogs were saved.
> 
> There are quite a few negatives and downsides to banning prongs and no real upside.
> 
> I'll try to find the article about that and link it.


But you can´t compare extremist which say you should never use even a NO to people who have a very good understanding of motivational/rewardbased training and what is needed in certain situation when it comes to corrections, for me this have little to do with prongs or e-collars. There are plenty of people who uses corrections with different tools but who never get any good results, just as someone can stress a dog with only bad rewardbased training. I think most high level trainers will agree you get the best results with avodining too much corrections and conflicts in training, this doesn´t mean they never ever correct a dog in all situations. The question should instead be what results can not be obtained without an e-collar or prong, and what results are we talking about?

If a person can´t train a dog without a prong then of course some will do this behind closed doors, but I doubt this will lead to other "stronger" tools and kicking and beating, if so people in norway/sweden are more "cruel" to their dogs in general than countries where heavy handed old school training with whatever tools is more accepted and part of the dogtraining culture/tradition. This of course doesn´t mean cruelty and bad training can´t be found here too, it surely can, but if prongs and e-collars are a better alternative than common sense and dogtraining skills, then it´s up to users of these tools to show how these tools are a better and more humane than current methods. 

But it´s a complex issue, for me if a correction is needed the best tool for this should be used, as it is today you are not handicapped regarding corrections you can use either. In the end it comes down to if someone have failed with their dog and you have a problem to solve, should this mean all tools and methods should be accepted because of this, or should we educate dogowners more so they never get into those situations where the only solution is a hard correction with prong or e-collar, which I doubt is the only and best solution in most cases if we are not talking more difficult problems that may be a matter of life and death for the dog. I´m certainly are not saying all collars and all type of corrections should be banned, this would be foolish, and I doubt that opinion will win over a more balanced approach and common sense, at least I don´t see such tendencies here, there seems still to be plenty of people who balance the approach a of a few only positive extremists, but this desn´t mean they say we need more e-collars and prongs to be able to train dogs correctly.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yes I can compare and I'll explain why - results and agenda.

A lot of the people pushing for bans like this do so from a place of misinformation to extreme animal rights. Banning prongs only reinforces the extremist views.

The results?

The result of banning any tool is it bans it for everyone good, bad and inbetween (usually often military/leo get passes on this sort of thing). The law doesn't discriminate between people who use them humanely and appropriately.

Again, there's simply no objective logic, nor factual reasons to have these bans in place. It doesn't and won't stop cruel practices, it will only shift the problem behind doors (those who are cruel will continue to be) and there's no evidence that the use of prong collars or e collars causes any more suffering then flat collars or other tools.

Therefore that leads to the conclusion that these laws are fundamentally based on emotions and propaganda and you know...that is NEVER a good thing.

As it stands the groups that are pushing this agenda seek to ban prongs, e collars, choke chains. Next up? Slip leads? Martingales? I can loop my leash through the handle and create a slip lead will we need to ban loops on the leashes too? Since the original intent of the law isn't based on factual evidence where's it to stop? 

As to results: There is far more evidence that dogs can learn and work happily with the tools some seek to ban. 

That doesn't mean some people can achieve results without using those tools (see board member Merciel) but the vast majority of people I run across who are 'against prongs' have dogs that don't loose leash walk, don't hold a sit for more then a few seconds and basically are spoilt brats. At some point, you have to accept it's because there's something wrong with this picture and it's NOT prongs..... 

There are many, many examples of top trainers in sport and work that use prongs/e collars effectively, humanely and get outstanding results. The dogs show no sign of being treated abusively.

BTW let's be clear too, this isn't about 'hard corrections'. As bailiff rightly pointed out someone could just use a stick or a punch or a boot to the dog's gut, whatever for a harsh correction.

This is about a tool that does help people, the vast majority who learn to use it properly and humanely.

Just yesterday I saw a man with a lovely Wiemaraner jogging in the park. He had a prong on the dog, properly snug and high up on the dogs neck. The dog started forging the man did a turn, which put pressure (not a harsh correction) the dog turned and released the pressure itself! He praised the dog for returning to his side and they jogged on very nicely. I think more people are catching on to how to use the tool properly and it shows in the actual results! 

Why, why take a tool away from someone like that?





björn said:


> But you can´t compare extremist which say you should never use even a NO to people who have a very good understanding of motivational/rewardbased training and what is needed in certain situation when it comes to corrections, for me this have little to do with prongs or e-collars. There are plenty of people who uses corrections with different tools but who never get any good results, just as someone can stress a dog with only bad rewardbased training. I think most high level trainers will agree you get the best results with avodining too much corrections and conflicts in training, this doesn´t mean they never ever correct a dog in all situations. The question should instead be what results can not be obtained without an e-collar or prong, and what results are we talking about?
> 
> If a person can´t train a dog without a prong then of course some will do this behind closed doors, but I doubt this will lead to other "stronger" tools and kicking and beating, if so people in norway/sweden are more "cruel" to their dogs in general than countries where heavy handed old school training with whatever tools is more accepted and part of the dogtraining culture/tradition. This of course doesn´t mean cruelty and bad training can´t be found here too, it surely can, but if prongs and e-collars are a better alternative than common sense and dogtraining skills, then it´s up to users of these tools to show how these tools are a better and more humane than current methods.
> 
> But it´s a complex issue, for me if a correction is needed the best tool for this should be used, as it is today you are not handicapped regarding corrections you can use either. In the end it comes down to if someone have failed with their dog and you have a problem to solve, should this mean all tools and methods should be accepted because of this, or should we educate dogowners more so they never get into those situations where the only solution is a hard correction with prong or e-collar, which I doubt is the only and best solution in most cases if we are not talking more difficult problems that may be a matter of life and death for the dog. I´m certainly are not saying all collars and all type of corrections should be banned, this would be foolish, and I doubt that opinion will win over a more balanced approach and common sense, at least I don´t see such tendencies here, there seems still to be plenty of people who balance the approach a of a few only positive extremists, but this desn´t mean they say we need more e-collars and prongs to be able to train dogs correctly.


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## Baillif

Even if it was about harsh punishment, at least in the case of e collars it can be delievered without possibility of physical damage to the dog. I wish we took video of it but we have a client that has been coming in with a tank of a two year old sable gsd that is horribly dog agressive and even tried to go after one of us before after we had played with him and tried to make friends. He was a fence fighter (never let your dog do this) That agression didnt come from fear it came from a place of "im the man and im gonna mess you up."

We brought him into the training room with a whole wall full of crated dogs that just sat there as he barked viciously at them while being restrained by his owner. When he was calm wed give food but this wasnt enough and everytime a dog so much as shifted their weight in a crate hed go flying into a rage again. Hed shown some improvement but it was clear this wasnt going to work on its own. So we put an e colllar on him and jacked it up to the max stim level (some of you probably squirming right now). As soon as he barked he got a nick. When he was calm he got food. After two sessions of this we had him calm enough in that room to do obedience with his owner and after a third had him ignoring the dogs 95% of the time and even off leash playing frisbee with his owner in that room.

The e collar let us deliever a rather harsh punishment without hurting the dog permanently or risking redirection on the handler (dog could have eaten him alive). He has control over his dog now even when another dog is out of crate in the same room. More importantly he has a way to stop that dog from practicing that behavior again.


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## Blanketback

That's interesting, Baillif. In your opinion, was that dog a dangerous dog? I mean, was that dog a dog that was destined to be a handful to its owner, no matter how experienced - or was that dog raised in a way that would make many dogs a challenge once they matured. I'm thinking with the fence fighting, and maybe having had no corrections/punishments that were meaningful. I'm thinking (IMO) that it's not really in the dog's best interest to omit consequences in their learning phase. And obviously to stop escalating bad behaviors, which we've mentioned before.


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## Baillif

That dog remains a dangerous dog. We dont handle him. If he continues to tighten the obedience and i believe he will, along with management the risks will be mitigated.

If it was properly socialized when younger and avoided the fence fighting that dog would have been fantastic. With enough work it still could be. The goal here isnt to put that dog with other dogs (that might not be a realistic goal but who knows). The goal is just to get control on the dog. Obedience with aversive use can control a dog without socialization or counter conditioning if youre tight enough with it.


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## björn

It´s not only people who is extremists who feels prong or e-collars is "bad" or a worse alternative, and they are certainly not inexperineced in the matter of training workingdogs or have never used these tools when it was allowed. Yes, I´m sure most of them wouldn´t be uppset of a light prongcorrection a few times or the use of an e-collar in speciall circumstances, but let´s be honest here, how many people use prongs and e-collars in such professional way that it´s rarely used and if it is it´s no worse than a medium hard correction on a fursaver, or a firm NO or something else light physical with your hands that doesn´t hurt the dog or cause quite much pain? It´s not necessary the tools I think people with common sense are against, it´s the use of it for things that are totally uneccesary and as a way to get harder corrections because their own lack of trainingskill to train without these tools, if it makes training more easy and effective so someone can be worldchampions in sports isn´t an argument who will change peoples mind I believe, or if someone is able to walk their dog becaus off a prong.

Even if it suddenly was allowed again many of the better trainers wouldn´t use them because why should they when they don´t need them. Prongs and especially e-collars was mostly used by hunters or some workingdog people before the ban, it was not tools used on the majority of dogs, regardless if it´s only a pet or something more advanced, that´s a big cultural difference I guess between US and some EU countries.

Intressting about the aggresive GSD, But guess what, I know a similar case, a very tough GSD who was on the brink of being put down because proffesional trainers couildn´t handle him, he was supposed to be a militarydog but had biiten a few trainers and was considered dangerous. That dog today just works fine, is used in service by another handler. Putting a prong on that dog and corret it would get you severly bitten. It was no harsh corrections that turned this dog around, it was a bit of patience and knowing such dogs are best trained with a gentle hand, using brain before muscles so to speak. So corrections aren´t a quick fix for all dogs, probably why real tough dogs often can´t be handled because people are so used to use harder and harder corrections when facing a problem and then the problem get´s worse or it works temporarly.

Personnaly I don´t care if prongs are allowed in other countries, no big deal, but I think it´s a bit backward thinking to focus on tools instead of 99% of other things that makes a good trainer. If more people would be able to train dogs with the least amount of force needed isn´t this a good thing, is it good if dogs needs a "real" prong or e-collar corretion know and then to keep him in line, or?


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## Baillif

Thats why for some things its best not to start with a lower intensity correction. If you have to correct too many times dogs can get used to steadily increasing intensity. Especially true of harder tougher dogs. Sometimes you have to let them see the full power of the collar and stop the BS quickly. Things in dog training fix fairly quickly if you do it right. If you find yourself taking forever to get a fix to see results the problem is a handler issue not a dog one.

Ofc now that i say that dont just go running out to blast your dogs there is an art to it and if you dont know youll screw crap up and then run to the forums talking about how evil the collars are.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think some people's problem with positive only training is the time and effort it can take to fix an issue. The prong or ecollar can be a quicker fix. But is faster always what is best for the dog? Sometimes the quick bandaid of a correction doesn't address a deeper issue in cases of fear, overarousal, or aggression. Changing a dog's associations with a stimulus over time can actually re map their brain, and change their emotions surrounding a stimulus to relaxed or happy instead of fearful or aggressive.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think that a correction can teach a dog to stuff their negative emotions down to pop out later in other ways in the case of an angsty dog instead of getting rid of the source of the angst.


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## Baillif

Anyone who knows the art of aversives wont correct for fear. You don't punish emotions and you dont even punish the dog. You punish a behavior. You also wont just punish without offering and rewarding alternative desirable behavior.

Just rewarding an alternative behavior wont necessarily get rid of an unwanted behavior especially if there is prior history of reinforcement for that undesirable behavior and there pretty much always is a history or the dog wouldn't continue to display it.

You also want to dissuade the dog from practicing that behavior especially if it is self reinforcing. You do that either through management or punishment. Sometimes management isn't an option or desirable.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes, but emotions drive behavior.


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## Baillif

glowingtoadfly said:


> I think that a correction can teach a dog to stuff their negative emotions down to pop out later in other ways in the case of an angsty dog instead of getting rid of the source of the angst.


That can be avoided with the inclusion of positive reinforcement and punishment or reward markers. For example I can use a tug to reward the dog. I can hit the dog with the tug and use it for punishment. If the dog sees both pictures and it is clear why both happen and the context is clear then the dog is emotionally neutral toward the tug.

Same thing when correcting a dog for dog aggression. If the only picture the dog sees is i see dog i bark at dog i get punished then yes that could make the dog worse. If they get rewarded for not barking or even just not punished for not barking it becomes clear after experience what causes the consequence. Of course there is stress before the dog figures this out but if you keep at it that goes away. Be clear to the dog.


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## Baillif

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, but emotions drive behavior.


Wrong. Consequences drive behavior.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think that by managing consequences you can teach a dog to control their emotions and therefore their behavior. I use no reward markers with my dog when she messes up and it means... No rewards are available for that behavior. She gets it and when I say the no reward marker, she offers another behavior that might get her a reward.


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## Baillif

A no reward marker marks the start of negative punishment. The dog isn't getting something it wants as a direct result of its actions. In a drivey enough dog this can be punishing enough by itself. So there you go. You punish your dog you dog abuser you


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## glowingtoadfly

But in the case of a self rewarding behavior such as mouthing, it has gotten a little dicey as she would not respond to the no reward marker when over threshhold. So that led to finding out her thresholds and working within them and teaching her frustration control exercises. Not everyone is willing to work positively with a dog like mine. Laws against prongs would probably be ineffective for the reasons you state... Yep, I abuse her by not giving her her way!Im sure that is how she sees it.


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## Baillif

You could just get her hungry and practice the leave it exercise with a handful of treats and then up the ante by harassing her with the fist, train at more than one state of mind and you get behavior at more than one state of mind.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> You could just get her hungry and practice the leave it exercise with a handful of treats and then up the ante by harassing her with the fist, train at more than one state of mind and you get behavior at more than one state of mind.


I will try that! The helper at IPO got her really into her tug and had her sit. She did really well. Now that she can tug without mouthing I think getting her amped and doing obedience will also help her learn to control herself.


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## Baillif

Yup gotta teach the dog to cap drives at some point.


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## Blitzkrieg1

The implication that it is best for a dog to be trained with 0 compulsion is nothing more then a fantasy. The only one whobenifits from that approach is the human who gets to feel better about themselves.

When a dog is brought up in that type system were one line of communications is completely eliminated learn at a slower rate and tend to be much less reliable and clear in their training. The chaos and uncertainty created by that type of environment is in my opinion more stressful to the dog then any number of properly applied corrections.
My goal is for my dogs by 6 months to be off leash at local parkland and allowed greater freedom to experience the world and go everywhere while being under control. This is achievable because you make things clear from the get go. Your expectations and training are clear an easy to understand. No grey only black an white.
Then again not everyone relies on results to determine the course of their training system..


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The implication that it is best for a dog to be trained with 0 compulsion is nothing more then a fantasy. The only one whobenifits from that approach is the human who gets to feel better about themselves.
> 
> When a dog is brought up in that type system were one line of communications is completely eliminated learn at a slower rate and tend to be much less reliable and clear in their training. The chaos and uncertainty created by that type of environment is in my opinion more stressful to the dog then any number of properly applied corrections.
> My goal is for my dogs by 6 months to be off leash at local parkland and allowed greater freedom to experience the world and go everywhere while being under control. This is achievable because you make things clear from the get go. Your expectations and training are clear an easy to understand. No grey only black an white.
> Then again not everyone relies on results to determine the course of their training system..


My girl came with such a reliable recall, positively instilled in her by our breeder, that she could be trusted off leash at the park and in the forest almost immediately.


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## Baillif

Im pretty much convinced a certain ammount of stress in training is good for dogs. Just because something uncomfortable happened doesnt mean the end of the world or its time to break down and fall apart. Just make better choices and suck it up and carry on. A prong yank a few months ago that would have leveled Zebu he now takes in stride and does what it takes to avoid it, and now does it in style.

Hes a little man about it now. Ive seen it over and over even with pets. They learn to deal. Life is pressure. It isnt an opinion ive formed by reading or listening to people talk. Its formed by watching the dogs train. Ive got one now I had to start with silk gloves. He has toughened up big time and gets it done and is happy doing it even under pressure. He got there because of pressure not in spite of it.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> Im pretty much convinced a certain ammount of stress in training is good for dogs. Just because something uncomfortable happened doesnt mean the end of the world or its time to break down and fall apart. Just make better choices and suck it up and carry on. A prong yank a few months ago that would have leveled Zebu he now takes in stride and does what it takes to avoid it, and now does it in style.
> 
> Hes a little man about it now. Ive seen it over and over even with pets. They learn to deal. Life is pressure.


But stress is what frustration control exercises are all about... It can be done simply by asking for a down or sit before throwing the ball, teaching the dog to wait for what he wants. I don't think dogs need a prong to learn these things.I understand the reasoning behind the tool. I don't think a dog needs to be leveled to learn to deal with stress. This is JMO.


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## Blitzkrieg1

For sure have worked plenty of soft dogs on prong and e collar it builds them up.

Sorry toadfly not buying it I doubt the recall is reliable.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> For sure have worked plenty of soft dogs on prong and e collar it builds them up.
> 
> Sorry toadfly not buying it I doubt the recall is reliable.


Actually, it is almost 100% reliable as long as I have a ball. Good enough for her to be a great trail dog off leash in the northwoods, squirrels and all.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> But stress is what frustration control exercises are all about... It can be done simply by asking for a down or sit before throwing the ball, teaching the dog to wait for what he wants. I don't think dogs need a prong to learn these things.I understand the reasoning behind the tool. I don't understand the need to level your dog with a prong yank to teach them to deal with stress.


Thats not how you use it. Why do you persist in commenting on things you dont understand? I can teach a dog to down with a ball and a stick. I dont need a prong just like I can use a rock to bash in a nail but why not use a hammer?


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> Actually, it is almost 100% reliable as long as I have a ball. Good enough for her to be a great trail dog off leash in the northwoods, squirrels and all.


 
Ofcourse you need the ball.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats not how you use it. Why do you persist in commenting on things you dont understand? I can teach a dog to down with a ball and a stick. I dont need a prong just like I can use a rock to bash in a nail but why not use a hammer?


What I meant, and maybe this was not clear, was that dealing with stress can be taught without a prong. Not that Bailiff teaches sits and downs with a prong.


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## Baillif

The dog wasnt leveled I just know it would have happened. I had a feel for the dog without needing to go there. 

The prong isnt necessary. I never said it was. Its just a tool. A great one, but it can be done in other ways. Ultimately the problem is legislation against prong collars and e collars is being driven by the ignorant, and not those who are in the know. But this has already been said and im just beating the drum again.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> The dog wasnt leveled I just know it would have happened. I had a feel for the dog without needing to go there.
> 
> The prong isnt necessary. I never said it was. Its just a tool. A great one, but it can be done in other ways. Ultimately the problem is legislation against prong collars and e collars is being driven by the ignorant, and not those who are in the know. But this has already been said and im just beating the drum again.


I agree that the legislation is silly, and I believe that you are probably a great trainer. We just use different ways.


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## Baillif

glowingtoadfly said:


> What I meant, and maybe this was not clear, was that dealing with stress can be taught without a prong. Not that Bailiff teaches sits and downs with a prong.


How I teach it depends on the dog. If i can do it with food or toy i do. But even after they learn it that way i use a prong collar to layer pressure over the top of that to "double reinforce it." Bf skinner left us with 4 quadrants for a reason.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I actually trained my dog with treats exclusively. In the proofing process Ill use a prong E Collar. I taught off leash heel with a prong. Its easy to teach a dog anything with treats its making them reliable everywhere that many fail.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ofcourse you need the ball.


In my opinion, why use a prong and an ecollar when all I need is a few toys and some cheese? It's simpler that way. Would it work with a dog who wasn't as food and toy motivated? Definitely not.


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## Baillif

glowingtoadfly said:


> In my opinion, why use a prong and an ecollar when all I need is a few toys and some cheese? It's simpler that way. Would it work with a dog who wasn't as food and toy motivated? Definitely not.


Its the difference between a dog doing a behavior for a reward and a dog that finds a behavior itself rewarding. Huge difference. Together they are even more powerful.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> Its the difference between a dog doing a behavior for a reward and a dog that finds a behavior itself rewarding. Huge difference. Together they are even more powerful.


In my opinion, if you have a good relationship with your dog and are the giver of all good things, recall will follow because the dog will find connection with you intrinsically rewarding. Of course, that and drills.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Opinions based on experience carry weight . Wishful thinking and echoing what you read on the internet are also basis for an opinion..perhaps not much weight though..


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Opinions based on experience carry weight . Wishful thinking and echoing what you read on the internet are also basis for an opinion..perhaps not much weight though..


Personal attacks do not a good debate make.


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## Blitzkrieg1

There is no debate. Just someone making broad incredibly incorrect statements that show a complete lack of knowledge or real experience. Perhaps a better approach would be "I have heard" or "I read somewhere" not "in my opinion" which implies some level of personal experience. 
Opinions that arent based on personal experience are groundless. In dogs its real simple the talk stops when the tail gait drops


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## Baillif

There are some dogs out there that can be taken a **** of a long way with force free stuff. Most dogs are rather limited reliability wise, but if you have a ball and interacting with you and that ball (or any item you can have on hand) is that dogs absolute favorite thing in the world then if properly harnessed it might be all you need for some training goals. 

If you have a dog like this you got lucky. Most dogs are not like this. Its far more common to get dogs that have bad toy and food drive. Guess how you have to train them?


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## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> In my opinion, if you have a good relationship with your dog and are the giver of all good things, recall will follow because the dog will find connection with you intrinsically rewarding. Of course, that and drills.


Please explain what you're basing your opinion on, regarding the quote above. I don't believe there's a good GSD out there that won't test the waters, so to speak, when the time is right. That might be running after the neighbor's dog, or it might mean chasing a squirrel, or many other fascinating things. Maybe I just give my dogs too much freedom, but this is how I want them to learn - and I expect a few fails in the process.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> There are some dogs out there that can be taken a **** of a long way with force free stuff. Most dogs are rather limited reliability wise, but if you have a ball and interacting with you and that ball (or any item you can have on hand) is that dogs absolute favorite thing in the world then if properly harnessed it might be all you need for some training goals.
> 
> If you have a dog like this you got lucky. Most dogs are not like this. Its far more common to get dogs that have bad toy and food drive. Guess how you have to train them?


Yes, I did get lucky with Skadi. She has good genetics.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> Please explain what you're basing your opinion on, regarding the quote above. I don't believe there's a good GSD out there that won't test the waters, so to speak, when the time is right. That might be running after the neighbor's dog, or it might mean chasing a squirrel, or many other fascinating things. Maybe I just give my dogs too much freedom, but this is how I want them to learn - and I expect a few fails in the process.


I did a lot of reading about dogs this year, and also in my nine months experience (yeah, I know, not long, but it feels longer because the dog I have had the longest is a tough cookie) because my dog expects to be rewarded each time she comes to me there is a bond that has grown really strong. That, and saying the recall command every time she runs to me with a ball. She has taken off in the woods towards the water a few times but she is never far from where I am and she constantly checks in.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I did a lot of reading about dogs this year, and also in my nine months experience (yeah, I know, not long, but it feels longer because the dog I have had the longest is a tough cookie) because my dog expects to be rewarded each time she comes to me there is a bond that has grown really strong. That, and saying the recall command every time she runs to me with a ball. She has taken off in the woods towards the water a few times but she is never far from where I am and she constantly checks in.


A dog that can be trained exclusively forcefree does not have good genetics in my book. Forcefree training is great for helping along weak genetic messes. 
Rewarding a dog with a ball everytime it comes to you has nothing to do with your bond. I could take your dog for a walk and get the samething.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> A dog that can be trained exclusively forcefree does not have good genetics in my book. Forcefree training is great for helping along weak genetic messes.
> Rewarding a dog with a ball everytime it comes to you has nothing to do with your bond. I could take your dog for a walk and get the samething.


So any dog that can be trained force free does not have good genetics? I disagree. Rewarding a dog builds the bond, that goes back to Pavlov.


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## Baillif

Might want to actually read Pavlov. He cut dogs cheeks off.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> Might want to actually read Pavlov. He cut dogs cheeks off.


I haven't actually read Pavlov, just read about him in school. His experiment with the drooling dogs and the bell supports my theory though.


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## Sarah~

Baillif said:


> Might want to actually read Pavlov. He cut dogs cheeks off.


That's interesting, I am taking courses to become a vet tech and the class on behavior didn't mention that when we were going over classical and operant conditioning! All it said was he was doing experiments on lab dogs to study digestion.


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## Baillif

How do you think they measured the saliva?


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## Sarah~

That's even more horrifying coming from Christopher Walken!


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## Sabis mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> A dog that can be trained exclusively forcefree does not have good genetics in my book. Forcefree training is great for helping along weak genetic messes.
> Rewarding a dog with a ball everytime it comes to you has nothing to do with your bond. I could take your dog for a walk and get the samething.


I would be inclined to agree. My well bred male would chew me up and spit me out if I was afraid to correct or gave him choices. I keep a firm hand and correct as needed.

My puppymill orphan loses her marbles if I scowl, but will do backflips for a Frisbee. I praise good behavior and ignore bad, unless she is in harms way.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> So any dog that can be trained force free does not have good genetics? I disagree. Rewarding a dog builds the bond, that goes back to Pavlov.


 
Who said not to reward the dog. Forcefree means only reward no punishment. A dog that is weak enough that it never tests you, never has the independence and backbone to choose a competing motivator over what you have is indeed a weak dog.

Research Pavlov and actually learn about classical conditioning. 

This myth that your dog has a better bond with you if you train force free is not only false I find the opposite to be true. Most dogs that are trained like that have no concrete understandings of the training or boundaries in their lives. I have seen the constant low level stress this creates on them. They do things like mouth their handlers, blow them off, develop OCD behaviors like resource guarding, become velcro dogs with seperation anxiety etc.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Who said not to reward the dog. Forcefree means only reward no punishment. A dog that is weak enough that it never tests you, never has the independence and backbone to choose a competing motivator over what you have is indeed a weak dog.
> 
> Research Pavlov and actually learn about classical conditioning.
> 
> This myth that your dog has a better bond with you if you train force free is not only false I find the opposite to be true. Most dogs that are trained like that have no concrete understandings of the training or boundaries in their lives. I have seen the constant low level stress this creates on them. They do things like mouth their handlers, blow them off, develop OCD behaviors like resource guarding, become velcro dogs with seperation anxiety etc.


I have read a lot about classical conditioning from sources like Brenda Aloff, Patricia Mc Connell and others, and use it every day. I just have not read the original Pavlov books.


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## glowingtoadfly

Baillif said:


> A no reward marker marks the start of negative punishment. The dog isn't getting something it wants as a direct result of its actions. In a drivey enough dog this can be punishing enough by itself. So there you go. You punish your dog you dog abuser you


Blitzkrieg, see Bailiff's comment from earlier in the thread.


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## Baillif

Negative punishment isn't as effective as positive punishment in dogs I have noticed. The practical applications are also far more limited.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Who said not to reward the dog. Forcefree means only reward no punishment. A dog that is weak enough that it never tests you, never has the independence and backbone to choose a competing motivator over what you have is indeed a weak dog.
> 
> Research Pavlov and actually learn about classical conditioning.
> 
> This myth that your dog has a better bond with you if you train force free is not only false I find the opposite to be true. Most dogs that are trained like that have no concrete understandings of the training or boundaries in their lives. I have seen the constant low level stress this creates on them. They do things like mouth their handlers, blow them off, develop OCD behaviors like resource guarding, become velcro dogs with seperation anxiety etc.


These are all blanket statements about all dogs that are trained positively and therefore do not hold water. My dog is quite strong and often tests me, and she exhibits or has exhibited some of the behaviors you describe - common GSD problems, all of them. My sister in law who works in a shelter often sees german shepherds with resource guarding issues that were never worked through, and the best way to work through resource guarding involves lots of positive training and classical conditioning. Separation anxiety is another common GSD issue that is widespread in the breed. I never stated that I doubt the bond that others who train differently have with their dogs, simply described my bond with my dog. It is quite easy to develop boundaries with a dog through the use of no reward markers.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> These are all blanket statements about all dogs that are trained positively and therefore do not hold water. My dog is quite strong and often tests me, and she exhibits or has exhibited some of the behaviors you describe - common GSD problems, all of them. My sister in law who works in a shelter often sees german shepherds with resource guarding issues that were never worked through, and the best way to work through resource guarding involves lots of positive training and classical conditioning. Separation anxiety is another common GSD issue that is widespread in the breed. I never stated that I doubt the bond that others who train differently have with their dogs, simply described my bond with my dog. It is quite easy to develop boundaries with a dog through the use of no reward markers.


 
Blanket statements hold no water?? Since when? I just wanted to fit in. 

Iv said it before Ill say it again call it a personal attack or whatever you want. You will never get your dog to the point where she is reliably obedient in the home, outside or on the IPO field without using some + P. 

What takes most people using operant conditioning 1 week will take you 4 weeks and will be less reliable. 
Hows that for broad statements? Now post some vids and prove me wrong.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Blanket statements hold no water?? Since when? I just wanted to fit in.
> 
> Iv said it before Ill say it again call it a personal attack or whatever you want. You will never get your dog to the point where she is reliably obedient in the home, outside or on the IPO field without using some + P.
> 
> What takes most people using operant conditioning 1 week will take you 4 weeks and will be less reliable.
> Hows that for broad statements? Now post some vids and prove me wrong.


Nah, it's not a personal attack to try to get me over to the +p side. Next week at training I will try to get some video of her


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> Nah, it's not a personal attack to try to get me over to the +p side. Next week at training I will try to get some video of her


 
Not a sterile environment with heavy luring, just outside. Heeling, long down and recall for starters.
Then you can show her working in drive with some distractors doing the same stuff, that should be fun.

I dont care if you go +P just telling it how I see it.


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## Baillif

Give me enough time with her in person and I can bring her to the dark side.


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## glowingtoadfly

Everyone at IPO is trying already.


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## RocketDog

Baillif said:


> Give me enough time with her in person and I can bring her to the dark side.


I hope you buy her a drink first, at least.


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## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> I did a lot of reading about dogs this year, and also in my nine months experience...


I could hug you for being so honest  Thanks!!

Really, I mean that sincerely. There's nothing worse that having someone spout off about something, and then ignore the questions that would normally reveal where their ideas don't hold water. And see, you're being very forthcoming with the facts: you've had hardly any hands-on experience with GSDs.

As far as the reading goes...well, reading _what_? In the 'olden days' the only material available was found in actual books, but not any more. Now we have the 'net, and with it comes the ability to only read what we want to read. We can shop around and narrow the material to just a tiny aspect of canine behavior/training ideals, those that suit our own agenda - if we're not careful - which we must be very careful of. I always look through the index/bibliography of a book before I plunge in, so I know how much merit to give to the author.

Anyway, I'm not trying to ridicule you for your lack of experience. We all have to start somewhere, that's a fact. I just get tired of reading things without any basis in reality, or without any proven experience. Like my co-worker who gave herself an acute gallbladder attack and emergency surgery because she spent so much time on the 'net figuring she knew better than her doctor, and eating grapefruit would solve all her troubles. I'm sure that has helped people, but not her. Dog training is the same, where a pie-in-the-sky idea might not be what you really need.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> I could hug you for being so honest  Thanks!!
> 
> Really, I mean that sincerely. There's nothing worse that having someone spout off about something, and then ignore the questions that would normally reveal where their ideas don't hold water. And see, you're being very forthcoming with the facts: you've had hardly any hands-on experience with GSDs.
> 
> As far as the reading goes...well, reading _what_? In the 'olden days' the only material available was found in actual books, but not any more. Now we have the 'net, and with it comes the ability to only read what we want to read. We can shop around and narrow the material to just a tiny aspect of canine behavior/training ideals, those that suit our own agenda - if we're not careful - which we must be very careful of. I always look through the index/bibliography of a book before I plunge in, so I know how much merit to give to the author.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not trying to ridicule you for your lack of experience. We all have to start somewhere, that's a fact. I just get tired of reading things without any basis in reality, or without any proven experience. Like my co-worker who gave herself an acute gallbladder attack and emergency surgery because she spent so much time on the 'net figuring she knew better than her doctor, and eating grapefruit would solve all her troubles. I'm sure that has helped people, but not her. Dog training is the same, where a pie-in-the-sky idea might not be what you really need.


Thanks for the hug, I kind of needed that 
I read tons of Nicole Wilde, Patricia McConnell, Brenda Aloff and Turid Rugaas, and had a five month intensive at the humane society to become a dogwalker... which included classes on handling dogs without corrections. Whether my ideals are pie in the sky is a matter of opinion. It is true that I took on a challenge for a first time dog owner who has only trained her parents lab as a puppy before embarking on a journey with working line shepherds. Some people here don't count positive only training as valid experience with dogs, and have told me quite clearly that balanced training is the only reputable source of information. I am just here to learn, not to judge others.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup!

That speaks to the other point I mentioned, if PO is tried then the next step is to try something else and that may involve using an e collar or prong, a lot of these types of dogs end up being put down if they can't be re-trained. Often people don't have months and months to try to slowly work through situations like this with a potentially dangerous dog either.

The sooner the problem is worked through the better it is in the long run for the dog and the owner.

So what's worse, getting a few 'nicks' from an e collar or putting the dog down?

Unintended consequences.





Baillif said:


> Even if it was about harsh punishment, at least in the case of e collars it can be delievered without possibility of physical damage to the dog. I wish we took video of it but we have a client that has been coming in with a tank of a two year old sable gsd that is horribly dog agressive and even tried to go after one of us before after we had played with him and tried to make friends. He was a fence fighter (never let your dog do this) That agression didnt come from fear it came from a place of "im the man and im gonna mess you up."
> 
> We brought him into the training room with a whole wall full of crated dogs that just sat there as he barked viciously at them while being restrained by his owner. When he was calm wed give food but this wasnt enough and everytime a dog so much as shifted their weight in a crate hed go flying into a rage again. Hed shown some improvement but it was clear this wasnt going to work on its own. So we put an e colllar on him and jacked it up to the max stim level (some of you probably squirming right now). As soon as he barked he got a nick. When he was calm he got food. After two sessions of this we had him calm enough in that room to do obedience with his owner and after a third had him ignoring the dogs 95% of the time and even off leash playing frisbee with his owner in that room.
> 
> The e collar let us deliever a rather harsh punishment without hurting the dog permanently or risking redirection on the handler (dog could have eaten him alive). He has control over his dog now even when another dog is out of crate in the same room. More importantly he has a way to stop that dog from practicing that behavior again.


----------



## Blanketback

Emily, this is a great place to learn. But you'd be alienating yourself if you continue to promote a training theory that you have no meaningful experience actually using IRL. The comment you made about people using certain methods because they're wanting faster results is a case in point. I didn't bother quoting that, or confronting you with that, because to me it's the same old regurgitated line I see all the time, from one tiny group. Why bother with it - I know that I'm not going the aversion-free route with my dog for lack of patience. That might be a good brainwashing sentiment to sway others, though - but that's all it's worth. I think you'd be much better off if you broadened your horizons and read as much as you can, even if you might not agree with the methods. It's better to look at the big picture than to paint yourself into a corner, and this applies to everything in life.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Prongs, e collars, choke chains all on the 'want to ban' list and are pretty closely tied to the PO crowd.

Bjorn, if someone wants to go aversive free with their dog and it works, fine, I'm all for it! 

What I object to is a LAW which forces people (if they care about being law abiding) to have to abandon tool(S) which have proven to be effective.

A law that is based fundamentally on something you wrote earlier "they look evil". Law making based on mythology is very, very, very, very bad. I strongly object to any law that is made up to appease a groups 'belief' system. 

That's not a sound premise upon which to basically take a right to use a tool away from millions of others.

Therefore any argument made to support such laws are very weak because there's simply no empirical evidence, no objective studies, no volumes of reports showing that dogs are being abused or harmed in great numbers by these prongs, e collars or choke chains.

What you are advocating for is taking a right away from many people based on misunderstanding and myth.

At it's very core that's why I so strongly disagree with this. People who believe their way is the ONLY way trying to force the rest of us to follow suit though legislation. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

No one is being forced to use prongs or ecollars. If that's what a person chooses to do go ahead, knock yourself out. 

I don't think this is cultural, the same principles apply in any society. Unjust laws are unjust laws, period.

(btw and a lot of the anti prong people better be vegan too.....just sayin' if they think prongs are evil they need to spend time at factory farms..)




björn said:


> It´s not only people who is extremists who feels prong or e-collars is "bad" or a worse alternative, and they are certainly not inexperineced in the matter of training workingdogs or have never used these tools when it was allowed. Yes, I´m sure most of them wouldn´t be uppset of a light prongcorrection a few times or the use of an e-collar in speciall circumstances, but let´s be honest here, how many people use prongs and e-collars in such professional way that it´s rarely used and if it is it´s no worse than a medium hard correction on a fursaver, or a firm NO or something else light physical with your hands that doesn´t hurt the dog or cause quite much pain? It´s not necessary the tools I think people with common sense are against, it´s the use of it for things that are totally uneccesary and as a way to get harder corrections because their own lack of trainingskill to train without these tools, if it makes training more easy and effective so someone can be worldchampions in sports isn´t an argument who will change peoples mind I believe, or if someone is able to walk their dog becaus off a prong.
> 
> Even if it suddenly was allowed again many of the better trainers wouldn´t use them because why should they when they don´t need them. Prongs and especially e-collars was mostly used by hunters or some workingdog people before the ban, it was not tools used on the majority of dogs, regardless if it´s only a pet or something more advanced, that´s a big cultural difference I guess between US and some EU countries.
> 
> Intressting about the aggresive GSD, But guess what, I know a similar case, a very tough GSD who was on the brink of being put down because proffesional trainers couildn´t handle him, he was supposed to be a militarydog but had biiten a few trainers and was considered dangerous. That dog today just works fine, is used in service by another handler. Putting a prong on that dog and corret it would get you severly bitten. It was no harsh corrections that turned this dog around, it was a bit of patience and knowing such dogs are best trained with a gentle hand, using brain before muscles so to speak. So corrections aren´t a quick fix for all dogs, probably why real tough dogs often can´t be handled because people are so used to use harder and harder corrections when facing a problem and then the problem get´s worse or it works temporarly.
> 
> Personnaly I don´t care if prongs are allowed in other countries, no big deal, but I think it´s a bit backward thinking to focus on tools instead of 99% of other things that makes a good trainer. If more people would be able to train dogs with the least amount of force needed isn´t this a good thing, is it good if dogs needs a "real" prong or e-collar corretion know and then to keep him in line, or?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

btw- I also thinks this ties in somewhat to the proposed 'stick hit' ban at the FCI world championships.

Lots of excuses I've read about that but fundamentally it's something that would take pressure off competitors who may well not have the kind of dog that can take that pressure and would be trained without banned tools.

It's all about lowering the bar.......to accommodate a certain groups world view. 

IMO if folks don't like that sort of thing they should just get dogs like my little Aussie, little marshmallow dog that melts if I use the word 'No' too firmly! They can stay out of bite sports too.


----------



## Baillif

RVBK told FCI to stick their rules where the sun doesn't shine for a reason


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Depends on the dog and the trainer. 

My Smitty dog rescue valued his independence more then anything I could give him. I tried toys, high value treats, happy 'yeah you're such a good dog' parties when I finally got him to obey a command, any command. He literally would look away from me and/or refuse the treat. I was at a complete loss. He really and truly didn't care about me or anything I had. At that point in his life treats and me had no value.

Recall? HA. He mocked me as he galavanted down the street. Being an escape artist was his number one goal in life. He literally bit a hole through the wire fence (live stock grade), smushed his body through the tightest spots and off he was, on his personal adventures.

Sweet goofy guy but totally aloof and disengaged from humans.

I'm not a professional trainer, but something about learning to use a prong properly was the key that opened the door for him. Baliff has explained it well, but another trainer put into laymen's terms for me and that helped, the prong shortened the amount of time Smitty spent in the negative behavior. It allowed me to actually use MORE positive reinforcement because we were no longer in this stalemate.

Now, my dear SO left the gate open (again, gotta get an alarm) and my independent free spirited Smitty was out and galavanting down the street. I called him and he didn't just come trotting, lazing along and sniffing, nope, it was a mad dash straight to me (of course I praised the bejeebus out of him and gave him lots of treats for that).

The prong allowed me to make the break through I needed to be able to be positive with Smitty!

Now please understand, I'm not saying you need to use a prong on your dogs, just sharing my experience which validates some of the points Baliff has been making from my experience.

Also, thank you for understanding and agreeing, earlier in this thread that the ban laws are not a good idea. 





glowingtoadfly said:


> In my opinion, if you have a good relationship with your dog and are the giver of all good things, recall will follow because the dog will find connection with you intrinsically rewarding. Of course, that and drills.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. I posted an update in the IPO forum, I wasn't sure if it was final though.....



Baillif said:


> RVBK told FCI to stick their rules where the sun doesn't shine for a reason


----------



## björn

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Prongs, e collars, choke chains all on the 'want to ban' list and are pretty closely tied to the PO crowd.
> 
> Bjorn, if someone wants to go aversive free with their dog and it works, fine, I'm all for it!
> 
> What I object to is a LAW which forces people (if they care about being law abiding) to have to abandon tool(S) which have proven to be effective.
> 
> A law that is based fundamentally on something you wrote earlier "they look evil". Law making based on mythology is very, very, very, very bad. I strongly object to any law that is made up to appease a groups 'belief' system.
> 
> That's not a sound premise upon which to basically take a right to use a tool away from millions of others.
> 
> Therefore any argument made to support such laws are very weak because there's simply no empirical evidence, no objective studies, no volumes of reports showing that dogs are being abused or harmed in great numbers by these prongs, e collars or choke chains.
> 
> What you are advocating for is taking a right away from many people based on misunderstanding and myth.
> 
> At it's very core that's why I so strongly disagree with this. People who believe their way is the ONLY way trying to force the rest of us to follow suit though legislation. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
> 
> No one is being forced to use prongs or ecollars. If that's what a person chooses to do go ahead, knock yourself out.
> 
> I don't think this is cultural, the same principles apply in any society. Unjust laws are unjust laws, period.
> 
> (btw and a lot of the anti prong people better be vegan too.....just sayin' if they think prongs are evil they need to spend time at factory farms..)


It´s not only that they look "evil" and this was the only reason, to find examples of "rough" bad training with whatever tools isn´t that hard. Just because something is "effective" doesn´t mean it´s the best solution, if it wasn´t effective then no one would use it of course. But as I said if someone have no problem with training dogs without these tools, or other methods that would be considered brutal, wouldn´t that be ideal, if people are worried about bans of dogsports and so on this would surely be a better solution than saying these tools are needed because other collars are to soft for the dog. I don´t think this is an extreme view, it´s common sense. 

The issue becomes where to draw the line, especially in EU where lots of people are involved in dogsports of all kinds. In some countries training in general is more old school and not so "modern", I think the isue in sweden was an attempt to say it´s better to draw the line somewhere and show not all methods are accepted even if it´s common in other countries. Hence e-collars, prongs or methods that would be considered abusive wasn´t allowed if you trained in the clubs of the national workingdog organization who has lot´s of members. And this is only a problem as long as people need these tools which many don´t. If this is good or not we can have different opinion of, I don´t think it´s better to have a mentality that everything is OK, well at least most things

And I´m not saying a prongcorrection necessarily is more abusive than a fursaver or similar legal collar, of course this depends on the user, but again why go there if you don´t need them, there is no logical reason for this. The dog training culture in sweden and norway also I guess is more modern today than it was, and many have good succes with this, not so much because we don´t use tools that are more accepted in other places, but because the training is more advanced and the exercises is broken down in small steps and more rewardbased. Just as it is for many of the top trainers today in dogsports, they use less forcebased training and more clever solutions regardless if they live in a country where prongs and e-collars is perfectly fine to use. 

I haven´t said anything about 100% correctionfree training either, but it´s a big differece how people us corrections and why. I agree it would be bad if a certain group would go to far and ifluence people so all kinds of bans starting. However this is not the case yet at least, and as I said I don´t think promoting better training that people find more "acceptable" will hurt the "fight" against bans and extremists. 

As said earlier, soft dogs can learn to tolerate corrections, not so uncommon because most people at least in the start are not so good trainers, I´m guilty of that as are many. It can also be said a good strong dog will not tolerate too painfull corrections from the handler which is evident when you see dogs that are described as very tough and hence go thru a number of handlers, so the idea that "soft" training is for soft dog I think is a myth.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Depends on the dog and the trainer.
> 
> My Smitty dog rescue valued his independence more then anything I could give him. I tried toys, high value treats, happy 'yeah you're such a good dog' parties when I finally got him to obey a command, any command. He literally would look away from me and/or refuse the treat. I was at a complete loss. He really and truly didn't care about me or anything I had. At that point in his life treats and me had no value.
> 
> Recall? HA. He mocked me as he galavanted down the street. Being an escape artist was his number one goal in life. He literally bit a hole through the wire fence (live stock grade), smushed his body through the tightest spots and off he was, on his personal adventures.
> 
> Sweet goofy guy but totally aloof and disengaged from humans.
> 
> I'm not a professional trainer, but something about learning to use a prong properly was the key that opened the door for him. Baliff has explained it well, but another trainer put into laymen's terms for me and that helped, the prong shortened the amount of time Smitty spent in the negative behavior. It allowed me to actually use MORE positive reinforcement because we were no longer in this stalemate.
> 
> Now, my dear SO left the gate open (again, gotta get an alarm) and my independent free spirited Smitty was out and galavanting down the street. I called him and he didn't just come trotting, lazing along and sniffing, nope, it was a mad dash straight to me (of course I praised the bejeebus out of him and gave him lots of treats for that).
> 
> The prong allowed me to make the break through I needed to be able to be positive with Smitty!
> 
> Now please understand, I'm not saying you need to use a prong on your dogs, just sharing my experience which validates some of the points Baliff has been making from my experience.
> 
> Also, thank you for understanding and agreeing, earlier in this thread that the ban laws are not a good idea.


What a beautiful story about Smitty


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> Emily, this is a great place to learn. But you'd be alienating yourself if you continue to promote a training theory that you have no meaningful experience actually using IRL. The comment you made about people using certain methods because they're wanting faster results is a case in point. I didn't bother quoting that, or confronting you with that, because to me it's the same old regurgitated line I see all the time, from one tiny group. Why bother with it - I know that I'm not going the aversion-free route with my dog for lack of patience. That might be a good brainwashing sentiment to sway others, though - but that's all it's worth. I think you'd be much better off if you broadened your horizons and read as much as you can, even if you might not agree with the methods. It's better to look at the big picture than to paint yourself into a corner, and this applies to everything in life.


I feel my experiences with this method have been quite meaningful. I didn't want to come off as judgemental about the patience of other kinds of trainers. I was again, trying to defend myself because my methods have been said to be working too slowly in other conversations. Any good book reccomendations?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> It´s not only that they look "evil" and this was the only reason, to find examples of "rough" bad training with whatever tools isn´t that hard. Just because something is "effective" doesn´t mean it´s the best solution, if it wasn´t effective then no one would use it of course. But as I said if someone have no problem with training dogs without these tools, or other methods that would be considered brutal, wouldn´t that be ideal, if people are worried about bans of dogsports and so on this would surely be a better solution than saying these tools are needed because other collars are to soft for the dog. I don´t think this is an extreme view, it´s common sense.
> 
> The issue becomes where to draw the line, especially in EU where lots of people are involved in dogsports of all kinds. In some countries training in general is more old school and not so "modern", I think the isue in sweden was an attempt to say it´s better to draw the line somewhere and show not all methods are accepted even if it´s common in other countries. Hence e-collars, prongs or methods that would be considered abusive wasn´t allowed if you trained in the clubs of the national workingdog organization who has lot´s of members. And this is only a problem as long as people need these tools which many don´t. If this is good or not we can have different opinion of, I don´t think it´s better to have a mentality that everything is OK, well at least most things
> 
> And I´m not saying a prongcorrection necessarily is more abusive than a fursaver or similar legal collar, of course this depends on the user, but again why go there if you don´t need them, there is no logical reason for this. The dog training culture in sweden and norway also I guess is more modern today than it was, and many have good succes with this, not so much because we don´t use tools that are more accepted in other places, but because the training is more advanced and the exercises is broken down in small steps and more rewardbased. Just as it is for many of the top trainers today in dogsports, they use less forcebased training and more clever solutions regardless if they live in a country where prongs and e-collars is perfectly fine to use.
> 
> I haven´t said anything about 100% correctionfree training either, but it´s a big differece how people us corrections and why. I agree it would be bad if a certain group would go to far and ifluence people so all kinds of bans starting. However this is not the case yet at least, and as I said I don´t think promoting better training that people find more "acceptable" will hurt the "fight" against bans and extremists.
> 
> As said earlier, soft dogs can learn to tolerate corrections, not so uncommon because most people at least in the start are not so good trainers, I´m guilty of that as are many. It can also be said a good strong dog will not tolerate too painfull corrections from the handler which is evident when you see dogs that are described as very tough and hence go thru a number of handlers, so the idea that "soft" training is for soft dog I think is a myth.


 
You can train a dog with a stick bjorn or a clicker or a pile of other things. Does that mean I shouldnt train with a prong? This makes no sense. 
There is evidence to suggest the most reliable and least stressful way to train dogs in an offleash exercise involving heavy distraction is with the E Collar. Why should I use an inferior tool to make someone feel better. 

Prongs and E Collars are IMO the best corrective tools out there right now. They allow the application of minimum force to achieve pressure levels from very low to high if necessary. 
Ofcourse they are evil if you believe a dog should be trained without pressure (at which point I always ask to see video of your training). 

How do they know their is a better way? I say training with these tools is the best way. Its not the only way but imo its the best.

Why should I be forced to write with a feather when I can use a fountain pen? 

Why do all the top sport people in countries where it is banned use the E Collar and prong also LE and others?? Because they know it is best and most effective thats why.

Many buy into that AR pipe dream. It sounds good, it feels good, must be true then! Stop abusing those poor doggies! Ofcourse ignorant or ambivelent legislators get in line because its a nice feel good intiative they can put their face on.


----------



## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> I feel my experiences with this method have been quite meaningful. I didn't want to come off as judgemental about the patience of other kinds of trainers. I was again, trying to defend myself because my methods have been said to be working too slowly in other conversations. Any good book reccomendations?


By meaningful, I meant 'significant' not 'passionate' and there's a _tremendous_ difference between the two. Making disparaging remarks _is_ judgmental - defending yourself can only be achieved by making your own argument stronger. The issue wasn't that you're "too slow" it was that it's much clearer for the dog to be told what is and isn't acceptable. And books have their own dedicated forum, so there's no need to go OT here.


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You can train a dog with a stick bjorn or a clicker or a pile of other things. Does that mean I shouldnt train with a prong? This makes no sense.
> There is evidence to suggest the most reliable and least stressful way to train dogs in an offleash exercise involving heavy distraction is with the E Collar. Why should I use an inferior tool to make someone feel better.
> 
> Prongs and E Collars are IMO the best corrective tools out there right now. They allow the application of minimum force to achieve pressure levels from very low to high if necessary.
> Ofcourse they are evil if you believe a dog should be trained without pressure (at which point I always ask to see video of your training).
> 
> How do they know their is a better way? I say training with these tools is the best way. Its not the only way but imo its the best.
> 
> Why should I be forced to write with a feather when I can use a fountain pen?
> 
> Why do all the top sport people in countries where it is banned use the E Collar and prong also LE and others?? Because they know it is best and most effective thats why.
> 
> Many buy into that AR pipe dream. It sounds good, it feels good, must be true then! Stop abusing those poor doggies! Ofcourse ignorant or ambivelent legislators get in line because its a nice feel good intiative they can put their face on.


My point is more why should you need more power thru a prong/e-collar if you can get a dog to out for example with smart training and less force, then you really don´t need so much corrections, if a fursaver or even leathercollar is all you need combined with your hands,voice and bond with the dog I don´t see why you need the prong unless it´s more force in the correction you want. But of course someone is jerking very hard and often on a "legal" collar because it has no effect this is not better than a less hard correction with a prong, but is this because of the trainer or the tool I guess you need to think about. 

Even in countries where prong/e-collar is used you will find hard corrections is less common regardless how they correct their dogs because people are better trainers who have changed methods, at least if you talk about some of the top trainers in IPO for example, this doesn´t mean they never use it and some will of course use it more and harder than others, some may use only the prong.

So it´s not true that people here use prongs/e-collars as you said, some do of course but there are plenty who don´t. Or are you saying if someone correct a dog on a chokechain this is not enough, or this is more hurtfull than those who use prong to correct the dog, it´s all about how hard you correct the dog on the "legal" collar in that case. And I have no problem with a correction as long as it´s used correctly and not hurtfull as a compensation for the trainers skill.


----------



## David Winners

There seems to be a misconception that the reason for using a prong or e-collar is because of the possibility of applying punishment greater in magnitude than with other training tools. The use of these tools often allows the trainer to apply far less force to achieve effective results.

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Bjorn, eloquent defense, but of the indefensible.

The problem is these bans are built on a false premise, they're a fallacy.

When you start with a fallacy all the arguments to support it have no foundation.

The line in the sand you mention is imaginary and for the sake of people's feelings, not reality.

You, yourself, have already acknowledged that prongs are not tools of cruelty, you've acknowledged that other tools can be used in a cruel manner and that people view tools like prongs incorrectly.

Therefore you've undermined your own arguments.

I've pointed out that A) you aren't against corrections, I understand but that doesn't change the fact that it IS the PO and AR crowd pushing for these types of laws and they'll keep pushing B) there are unintended consequences of dogs that may benefit from balanced training approaches are (not if, are) put down because PO doesn't solve the problem C) the growing potential to put downward pressure on the quality of dogs involved sports that apply pressure, like the bite sports.





björn said:


> It´s not only that they look "evil" and this was the only reason, to find examples of "rough" bad training with whatever tools isn´t that hard. Just because something is "effective" doesn´t mean it´s the best solution, if it wasn´t effective then no one would use it of course. But as I said if someone have no problem with training dogs without these tools, or other methods that would be considered brutal, wouldn´t that be ideal, if people are worried about bans of dogsports and so on this would surely be a better solution than saying these tools are needed because other collars are to soft for the dog. I don´t think this is an extreme view, it´s common sense.
> 
> The issue becomes where to draw the line, especially in EU where lots of people are involved in dogsports of all kinds. In some countries training in general is more old school and not so "modern", I think the isue in sweden was an attempt to say it´s better to draw the line somewhere and show not all methods are accepted even if it´s common in other countries. Hence e-collars, prongs or methods that would be considered abusive wasn´t allowed if you trained in the clubs of the national workingdog organization who has lot´s of members. And this is only a problem as long as people need these tools which many don´t. If this is good or not we can have different opinion of, I don´t think it´s better to have a mentality that everything is OK, well at least most things
> 
> And I´m not saying a prongcorrection necessarily is more abusive than a fursaver or similar legal collar, of course this depends on the user, but again why go there if you don´t need them, there is no logical reason for this. The dog training culture in sweden and norway also I guess is more modern today than it was, and many have good succes with this, not so much because we don´t use tools that are more accepted in other places, but because the training is more advanced and the exercises is broken down in small steps and more rewardbased. Just as it is for many of the top trainers today in dogsports, they use less forcebased training and more clever solutions regardless if they live in a country where prongs and e-collars is perfectly fine to use.
> 
> I haven´t said anything about 100% correctionfree training either, but it´s a big differece how people us corrections and why. I agree it would be bad if a certain group would go to far and ifluence people so all kinds of bans starting. However this is not the case yet at least, and as I said I don´t think promoting better training that people find more "acceptable" will hurt the "fight" against bans and extremists.
> 
> As said earlier, soft dogs can learn to tolerate corrections, not so uncommon because most people at least in the start are not so good trainers, I´m guilty of that as are many. It can also be said a good strong dog will not tolerate too painfull corrections from the handler which is evident when you see dogs that are described as very tough and hence go thru a number of handlers, so the idea that "soft" training is for soft dog I think is a myth.


----------



## Kaimeju

David Winners said:


> There seems to be a misconception that the reason for using a prong or e-collar is because of the possibility of applying punishment greater in magnitude than with other training tools. The use of these tools often allows the trainer to apply far less force to achieve effective results.
> 
> David Winners


:thumbup:

Whether you want to call it pressure or aversive stimulus, doesn't it matter more what the_ dog _finds aversive than what we humans see as unpleasant? If you watch people train with these tools correctly, you will see the dog is often less stressed because they know how to turn the pressure on and off. With something "humane" like a gentle leader, the pressure is on all the time. That is what the PO people want to push on everyone. The dog doesn't even have a choice. There is no opportunity for learning and no way to avoid the aversive stimulus. 

Take a look at this video and tell me if it doesn't speak volumes: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ybd0nP2VocU

Count the number of stress signals (yawns, lip licks, shake offs) the dog shows on a flat collar. Then do the same for the prong collar segment. It is stressful for the dog to be on the flat collar because there is a constant struggle between handler and dog. The prong collar takes the struggle away, with very little effort or pressure required. Constant struggle is a very bad relationship. 

You could do the same with a head collar so long as the dog didn't find it aversive. My dog lip licks the whole time it is on and struggles so it is a tool I avoid for her individual needs. If I were forced to use one for her rehabilitation, I would feel very guilty because I would be subjecting her to something she clearly hates when there are better tools available that suit her personality.


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## björn

David, but that´s only true if a trainer needs to use much and more corrections with other tools and methods, it seems some people believe that if e-collars and prongs aren´t used for sport/policedogs then either people are giving the dog hard corrections with chokes or beating the dog, or they are using them behind closed doors. Like prongs and e-collars is a "nicer" alternative compared to people who seems to do well without them, or isn´t this the case? 

Gwenwhyfair, it´s simple, if you use prongs/e-collars in a way that is better and just as "humane" than people do who don´t use them, then this is OK for me and most I guess, I only point out people use legal methods and have good results and I doubt they are more hard to their dogs than prongs and e-collar users? Where are all these trainers with e-collars and prongs who are "nicer" to the dog than a good trainer with other tools?? If your argument is these tools are better than others tools and methods and hence no difference if people us them or not. This is very subjective, the tools as I sad earlier are a small parts to train and handle a dog, two very good dogtrainers who have the same philosphy on training will of course use roughly the same amount of corrections, regardless what they use when needing to correct.

If banning things is correct is hard to tell, some think it is because people obviously have and are still using methods who are not so nice to train a sportdog, this pressure is not only comming from extremists, but also people who thinks you shouldn´t need harder methods than necessary, especillay since this is not better and will make the training of workingdogs controversial among the general public, and we can´t ignore them completlyThe real question may be if certain tools and methods should not be OK in workingdog clubs, but instead of a total ban there can be proffesionals who you can turn to if an e-collar is the best and most humane alternative to deal with a serious problems due to previous misstakes, but corrections are not a quick fix for everything and it seems people are really overestimating prongs and e-collars compared to common sense and good training without these tools.


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## Kaimeju

björn said:


> The real question may be if certain tools and methods should not be OK in workingdog clubs, but instead of a total ban there can be proffesionals who you can turn to if an e-collar is the best and most humane alternative to deal with a serious problems due to previous misstakes, but corrections are not a quick fix for everything and it seems people are really overestimating prongs and e-collars compared to common sense and good training without these tools.


What professionals? Who is going to certify them and make sure they are people you can really trust? The APDT is already against e-collars. Most behaviorists would shudder at the notion, so they won't be training anyone to use them. In my area, people would seriously be better off learning about e-collars from internet videos than going to any of the "trainers" that use them here. This would just further mystify their appropriate use and further create stigma that they are just for severe problem dogs. 

You're making a false dichotomy between using corrective collars and using good common sense in training. Part of common sense is knowing when you need a tool and when you don't. Like I said in my other post and Gwenhwyfair already explained, there are some cases where a prong collar is going to set the dog up for success better than other tools, giving you more opportunities to reward good behavior. This won't work if the dog is afraid of a gentle leader and doesn't respond to a harness or flat collar. I honestly don't care what gadgets a dog is sporting so long as the owner has a good reason for using them and understands their effects.


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## Baillif

I'll certify them send everybody to me.


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## Kaimeju

Baillif said:


> I'll certify them send everybody to me.


:rofl: Okay problem solved thread over.


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## Baillif

Handler sessions are an interesting thing though. Teaching prong-fu and learning it is a way harder thing than you might think because proper use of prongs runs contrary to what people instictively want to do when controlling a dog on leash. They all want to control with pressure instead of incentivize with absence of pressure so they have to fight their own instincts. Prong use is its own artform.

E collars are comparitively easy to learn but also easier to misuse to bad consequence.


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## björn

Kaimeju said:


> You're making a false dichotomy between using corrective collars and using good common sense in training. Part of common sense is knowing when you need a tool and when you don't.


No I don´t, I have said all the time good trainers know exactly what tool they need and how to train a dog and don´t create problems, I guess that´s why it´s not a problem for them to train dogs without these tools for sport/service, while plenty of people use corrections of all kinds and still don´t get good results and "happy" looking dogs


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## Blitzkrieg1

Sorry Bjorn its not about power. Its about using the MINIMUM pressure to achieve the greater result. The prong is great for teaching the dog how to move his body to turn the pressure off. You use the prong to teach the dog to be in the correct position and maintain it until otherwise told. It requires much less pressure then using a flat or a choke chain. The prong is the best tool to use with rewards to make it black (correction for being in the bad place) white reward for being in good place + no pressure.

The E collar is even better then the prong, again the dog learns to turn off the collar and you can touch the dog from far instantly. No other tool does this.

Show me these great trainers Bjorn 99% of high level trainers use one or both of these tools whatever they say in public.

These are the best tools currently available. Why should I use a stick its not 1800s anymore I can use an e collar. Its easier for the dog and for me.

And I teach out with two balls not prong. I make it reliable with the prong like everything else. 
One day the dog says to you I know you want me to out but I like the ball and I will keep it today. Then you teach the dog you must out not only because you want to but because you are told to. Prong pressure = dog outs then I reward and make her happy.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> By meaningful, I meant 'significant' not 'passionate' and there's a _tremendous_ difference between the two. Making disparaging remarks _is_ judgmental - defending yourself can only be achieved by making your own argument stronger. The issue wasn't that you're "too slow" it was that it's much clearer for the dog to be told what is and isn't acceptable. And books have their own dedicated forum, so there's no need to go OT here.


There are many clear ways to tell a dog what is and isn't acceptable, many ways to get there, and many differing opinions about how to go about it. In the end, opinions are where this forum begins and ends.


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## Gwenhwyfair

No sir, my argument is there is no data, evidence or justification to create legislation effectively criminalizing the use of a tool(s) that you yourself admitted is not cruel when used properly. To pick tools like the prong but leave choke chains alone. Makes no sense.

The line that has been crossed, in places that have bans, are laws being created to solve a problem that does not exist.

It's all well and good for folks to be subjective about their dogs and what they feel is right but it's NOT well and good to force that subjectivity on everyone by creating actual laws. 

(Btw, you can call me Gwen  )



björn said:


> <snipped>
> 
> Gwenwhyfair, it´s simple, if you use prongs/e-collars in a way that is better and just as "humane" than people do who don´t use them, then this is OK for me and most I guess, I only point out people use legal methods and have good results and I doubt they are more hard to their dogs than prongs and e-collar users? Where are all these trainers with e-collars and prongs who are "nicer" to the dog than a good trainer with other tools?? If your argument is these tools are better than others tools and methods and hence no difference if people us them or not. This is very subjective, the tools as I sad earlier are a small parts to train and handle a dog, two very good dogtrainers who have the same philosphy on training will of course use roughly the same amount of corrections, regardless what they use when needing to correct.
> 
> If banning things is correct is hard to tell, some think it is because people obviously have and are still using methods who are not so nice to train a sportdog, this pressure is not only comming from extremists, but also people who thinks you shouldn´t need harder methods than necessary, especillay since this is not better and will make the training of workingdogs controversial among the general public, and we can´t ignore them completlyThe real question may be if certain tools and methods should not be OK in workingdog clubs, but instead of a total ban there can be proffesionals who you can turn to if an e-collar is the best and most humane alternative to deal with a serious problems due to previous misstakes, but corrections are not a quick fix for everything and it seems people are really overestimating prongs and e-collars compared to common sense and good training without these tools.


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## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> There are many clear ways to tell a dog what is and isn't acceptable, many ways to get there, and many differing opinions about how to go about it. In the end, opinions are where this forum begins and ends.


Unquestionably - and the clearer you are with the dog, the more fair you're being. It's pretty simple, really. At least, that's how I see it.


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> Handler sessions are an interesting thing though. Teaching prong-fu and learning it is a way harder thing than you might think because proper use of prongs runs contrary to what people instictively want to do when controlling a dog on leash. They all want to control with pressure instead of incentivize with absence of pressure so they have to fight their own instincts. Prong use is its own artform.
> 
> E collars are comparitively easy to learn but also easier to misuse to bad consequence.


All very true of course. I always reserved judgement because after being hear awhile I realized that it's not the tool it's the user!

Don't remember the thread but it was a dog with an issue. You had stated you could fix that dog just like that with an E collar!

Well last Friday Cesar 911 (apparently he is tired of folks abusing E collars) did just that with two Boxers (for the record I think one was an American Bull Dog/Boxer mix) he set the collar for vibrate on the Boxer and when she went after a dog Cesar hit the switch, bam problem solved!

That was a whole lot faster, successful and less painful than my head locking, jaw prying (which did not work by the way) approach. Oh yeah my first stitches every! 

So yeah I'm sold! As always proper use. Just letting you know!


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## David Winners

björn said:


> David, but that´s only true if a trainer needs to use much and more corrections with other tools and methods, it seems some people believe that if e-collars and prongs aren´t used for sport/policedogs then either people are giving the dog hard corrections with chokes or beating the dog, or they are using them behind closed doors. Like prongs and e-collars is a "nicer" alternative compared to people who seems to do well without them, or isn´t this the case?


You are only looking at the correction side of training, not the communication that is possible with both those tools. I have used a prong collar on dogs through their OB training and only given 1 or 2 corrections, though the collar is used every day for training.

For me it is about the level of communication that is possible with these tools that is difficult to accomplish, and more confusing to the dog, when training without them. Less confusion equals less stress and more productive training. That is why I use these tools frequently, not because they offer a bigger correction. I can get all the correction I need without them.


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## björn

One example of a person who don´t use neither e-collar or prong is 6th time worldchampion mario, according to himself he isn´t against corrections but just doesn´t feel he need these tools because of his training today, I doubt he is not telling the truth because these tools is perfectly legal and normal equipment where he lives. There are more like him at the top also, yes they can correct if needed but it´s not the corrections that is the success behind their methods, it´s a new way of training. Also plenty of people in norway/sweden who trains similar in sport/service , so I don´t see why you need more tools than already is legal to be able to communicate with a dog, lack of communication and bond is on the other hand why people need to escalate their corrections.

The reason why these tools are controversial isn´t so much when they are in hands of the top trainers or for certain problems, is the many others who have a hard time to not train without them or use other methods that involves more tough corrections, so yes there exists a problem in EU between those people who thinks dogs should be trained without unneccesary pain and stress and those who still train more "old school", it would be naive to think heavy handed training in dopgsports is not a problem if more bans should be avoided in the future, especially since bitesports is already controversial in some countries.

Then I guess it can seem like double standars to allow chokes but not prongs, but I suppose that is because people often use a prong to get a harder corrections, or even more so the e-collar. I think the country in EU who has the stricktest laws is switzerland who is or are going to ban collars that also can choke, halfchokes only I think it is said is allowed. This is of course wrong if it goes to far, but so isn´t the case in other EU-countries yet, and if someone can train a dog with only that equipment I guess that´s not a negative thing.


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## Baillif

Chip18 said:


> All very true of course. I always reserved judgement because after being hear awhile I realized that it's not the tool it's the user!
> 
> Don't remember the thread but it was a dog with an issue. You had stated you could fix that dog just like that with an E collar!
> 
> Well last Friday Cesar 911 (apparently he is tired of folks abusing E collars) did just that with two Boxers (for the record I think one was an American Bull Dog/Boxer mix) he set the collar for vibrate on the Boxer and when she went after a dog Cesar hit the switch, bam problem solved!
> 
> That was a whole lot faster, successful and less painful than my head locking, jaw prying (which did not work by the way) approach. Oh yeah my first stitches every!
> 
> So yeah I'm sold! As always proper use. Just letting you know!


I'm not entirely convinced he was "just sending a vibration." Looked like a fairly high level stim to me but maybe that dog was just a wuss or there had been some conditioning done before hand to make the vibration a warning to a larger stim and it caused the dog to act like he has been stimmed.

Lots of people on training forums were in an uproar about that episode and it was the only reason I watched it. Was pretty tame though.


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## Baillif

David Winners said:


> You are only looking at the correction side of training, not the communication that is possible with both those tools. I have used a prong collar on dogs through their OB training and only given 1 or 2 corrections, though the collar is used every day for training.
> 
> For me it is about the level of communication that is possible with these tools that is difficult to accomplish, and more confusing to the dog, when training without them. Less confusion equals less stress and more productive training. That is why I use these tools frequently, not because they offer a bigger correction. I can get all the correction I need without them.


Right, 99% of the time when I utilize a prong or e collar it is a teaching thing. Little pops to tell the dog to move a certain way or direction or to encourage a position. These are not pain inducing pops they're communicative. Same with the e collar. Stim at a low level that the dog can feel but isn't punishing in the least. 

If you started yanking on dogs that weren't clear about the task you wanted to perform you'd work against yourself. If you were trying to teach a kid multiplication tables you wouldn't punch the kid in the face every time they got one wrong. The pressure would be too great and cause wrong answers or total aversion to the task at hand and that isn't desired.

Punishment comes in later when the dog is clear on what is happening but refuses to comply either because he'd rather chase a rabbit or sniff a new person that came into the room or blow the exercise off. If you have to do it often you are doing something very very wrong, not the dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I can share an example of how what David and Bailiff are talking about as it's being taught to some newbies from the group OB class I was attending.

First the trainer explained the philosophy, for every 'negative' we had to come up with 10 positives. It's about getting the dog from a place of negatives as quickly as possible to a place where we can be positive.

Teaching this philosophy reframed the use of a prong in our minds completely. The goal becomes not how much correction but rather how can we get to a place where we can reinforce the behavior we want and stay there. 

Then he explained how to build motivation through food, toys and praise.

We were shown how to properly fit the prong on the dog. Whether to use the dead ring or the live ring.

The students who followed through and practiced our homework had fantastic results.

So perhaps, Bjorn, some EU countries are not teaching properly? 

Also, time will tell, but for those countries that limit or ban the use of some of these tools we'll see in competition. Also, if the countries that have banned tools like ecollars and prongs start calling for less pressure to be put on the dogs during trials, well we know what that is about. No sugar coating it. That whole 'fci no stick hits' business became more meaningful in light of this conversation, IMO.


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## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> One example of a person who don´t use neither e-collar or prong is 6th time worldchampion mario, according to himself he isn´t against corrections but just doesn´t feel he need these tools because of his training today, I doubt he is not telling the truth because these tools is perfectly legal and normal equipment where he lives. There are more like him at the top also, yes they can correct if needed but it´s not the corrections that is the success behind their methods, it´s a new way of training. Also plenty of people in norway/sweden who trains similar in sport/service , so I don´t see why you need more tools than already is legal to be able to communicate with a dog, lack of communication and bond is on the other hand why people need to escalate their corrections.
> 
> The reason why these tools are controversial isn´t so much when they are in hands of the top trainers or for certain problems, is the many others who have a hard time to not train without them or use other methods that involves more tough corrections, so yes there exists a problem in EU between those people who thinks dogs should be trained without unneccesary pain and stress and those who still train more "old school", it would be naive to think heavy handed training in dopgsports is not a problem if more bans should be avoided in the future, especially since bitesports is already controversial in some countries.
> 
> Then I guess it can seem like double standars to allow chokes but not prongs, but I suppose that is because people often use a prong to get a harder corrections, or even more so the e-collar. I think the country in EU who has the stricktest laws is switzerland who is or are going to ban collars that also can choke, halfchokes only I think it is said is allowed. This is of course wrong if it goes to far, but so isn´t the case in other EU-countries yet, and if someone can train a dog with only that equipment I guess that´s not a negative thing.


Mario won with dogs he trained on the e collar and prong. Its him and one other trainer that does this with their dogs. No one else. In addition Mario and folks like him likely kennel their dogs when its not on the field. The dog is not part of day to day life nor does the handler have to deal with the competing motivators off the field that most do face. Like I said I can condition a dog to follow the field routine with a stick and a ball but why should I? There are better tools. 
Also your statement that this is a new way of training is false. Its been around a long time but most realized that it is not easier or more reliable for the dogs or humans.

Your comment about fear and pain are emotonally driven. When my kid tells me he doesnt want to go to school because he is "sick". I say ok but you will spend the day in your room staying in bed. He fears this consequence and magically recovers and goes to school. 
I guess thats fear and compulsion right there. You cannot reliably teach without it. Its part of nature and necessary to the learning process. Do not dramatize it takes away from your point.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Bjorn has done a good job explaining his thought process but unfortunately it's unavoidable that he's going to be a bit more dramatic. That's the foundation upon which these bans rely. So he has to go there, even though he's been very fair in recognizing the mythology surrounding these bans too, it's the only place he can go in the end.

No evidence, just subjective views drive this.


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## Blanketback

If anyone's curious about the historical aspect of this, check out the book _Breaking and Training Dogs_. It's a 2-part book published in the late 1800's written by "Pathfinder" (pseudo for H.C. Dear) and Hugh Dalziel. I just got a copy, mine's the revised 1903 edition. There's an appendix in the back for this 2nd edition where H.D. adds his own opinion to the original writing. Hmm, looks like this conundrum's been brewing for quite a while. H.D. writes "The spiked collar in an instrument of torture, the use of which nothing can justify. A collar with the spikes inside, and which, by the sudden jerk the dog receives when stopped with the cord, are driven into his flesh..." in response to the previous suggestion of using this tool, in the 1st edition. Interesting, huh?


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## björn

I know he used an e-collar before, but says himself he hasn´t on his current dog. He says here it isn´t necessary with prongs/e-collars, even if I´m not 100% sure what he means when talking about low level corrections, if this is with a prong or some type of other correction like choke, still he says he feels prongs/e-collars isn´t necessary. So why do people think it is so strange great trainers who have similar focus on rewarding and good foundation can´t train a dog wihout these tools. I never said people who train without prongs/-ecollars doesn´t correct their dogs, but just like mario says you don´t need much and hard corrections, sticks and kicks or what people seems to believe you use if you don´t use a prong or e-collar For me it´s enough the dogs look very happy and have a great relationship with their handler, this tells me they at least doesn´t use methods that gives negative results.

Mario Verslype | Gold Country K9 Services

No, it´s not new methods to focus on rewards instead of punishing behaviours, used succesfully by great obediencetrainers for example, what is new is some people in protectionsports have incorporated much of the same style of training, like mario and some other top IPO-trainers like skogster for example. Hence they use corrections in various degree but it´s not so much based on that and they are obviously winning with this. Then who cares what is needed to win big IPO-championships, it´s enough you can have fun and do good anyway even if you don´t get 300p. Getting a dog to behave in society you certainly don´t need prong or e-collar, unless there would be a bunch of wild dogs in countries where it´s not used

And as I said I know many who trains protectiondogs in sweden/norway for service or other sports like mondio etc who do very good without it, and why shouldn´t they just because they don´t use illegal tools and methods, corrections and what tools you use is only a tiny part of training a dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Time will tell, with regards to top competitors. The general human nature 101 reaction will be those who buy into the no prong/ecollar meme will push to lower standards to accommodate their style of training. We'll see, that is admittedly speculative on my part, however, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. 

(like... some pushing for no stick hits in world level competition).


Bjorn, it's not about whether someone, from training a pet to loose leash heel, to a top level sports competitor uses prongs or not. 

It they don't want to use those items, fine, no one is forcing them to use them.

Where the line truly is crossed is making LAWS that force those who do want to use them to stop by making them criminals. That is a very extreme solution for a problem that does not exist.

You can slice and dice it however you want but at the end of the day there's NO evidence of systemic and serious abuse to justify criminalizing training tools.


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## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> I know he used an e-collar before, but says himself he hasn´t on his current dog. He says here it isn´t necessary with prongs/e-collars, even if I´m not 100% sure what he means when talking about low level corrections, if this is with a prong or some type of other correction like choke, still he says he feels prongs/e-collars isn´t necessary. So why do people think it is so strange great trainers who have similar focus on rewarding and good foundation can´t train a dog wihout these tools. I never said people who train without prongs/-ecollars doesn´t correct their dogs, but just like mario says you don´t need much and hard corrections, sticks and kicks or what people seems to believe you use if you don´t use a prong or e-collar For me it´s enough the dogs look very happy and have a great relationship with their handler, this tells me they at least doesn´t use methods that gives negative results.
> 
> Mario Verslype | Gold Country K9 Services
> 
> No, it´s not new methods to focus on rewards instead of punishing behaviours, used succesfully by great obediencetrainers for example, what is new is some people in protectionsports have incorporated much of the same style of training, like mario and some other top IPO-trainers like skogster for example. Hence they use corrections in various degree but it´s not so much based on that and they are obviously winning with this. Then who cares what is needed to win big IPO-championships, it´s enough you can have fun and do good anyway even if you don´t get 300p. Getting a dog to behave in society you certainly don´t need prong or e-collar, unless there would be a bunch of wild dogs in countries where it´s not used
> 
> And as I said I know many who trains protectiondogs in sweden/norway for service or other sports like mondio etc who do very good without it, and why shouldn´t they just because they don´t use illegal tools and methods, corrections and what tools you use is only a tiny part of training a dog.


Yes Bjorn you can train without them for about the 5th time Ill repeat that. However, you can train much more clearly and effectively with them. Thats why 99% of serious trainers use one or both of those tools and will continue to do so. Mario has a certain type of dog and has his own way of providing punishment to the dog. His way is his way I do not see a ground swell of trainers trying to emulate him because there is no reason to. The same can be achieved with those tools and has been for a long time.


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## björn

I don´t see the connection with serious trainers and what tools they use, if serious in this case means someone who is very good at understanding dogs and their training, just because someone use tools because it´s easier and more effective doesn´t for sure make him the better trainer. The serious and best trainers would be those who are able to train dogs on a high level without prongs and e-collars if this is regarded as such an important tool, I mean this must be very unique skills it seems

Gwen, do you mean there is no problem if someone is a bad trainer and use more tools than needed because of this? Will this look good for the general public? How it can lead to lower standards I don ´t know, especially since the best trainers seems to move away from methods that was more based on compulsion. Do you think it´s a good dog because he tolerates more compulsion from the handler, probably the opposite but that´s less important if points is more important than character of the dog I guess.


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## Blanketback

I'm interested to know what the serious trainers actually use instead. Food deprivation - not feeding them for how long? Sensory deprivation - crated for exactly how long? These are the nitty gritty details I want to know, because it's implied that the prong is barbaric and the marvelous alternative is to mark and reward instead, and I'm certain there's alot more to it than that.


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## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> I don´t see the connection with serious trainers and what tools they use, if serious in this case means someone who is very good at understanding dogs and their training, just because someone use tools because it´s easier and more effective doesn´t for sure make him the better trainer. The serious and best trainers would be those who are able to train dogs on a high level without prongs and e-collars if this is regarded as such an important tool, I mean this must be very unique skills it seems
> 
> Gwen, do you mean there is no problem if someone is a bad trainer and use more tools than needed because of this? Will this look good for the general public? How it can lead to lower standards I don ´t know, especially since the best trainers seems to move away from methods that was more based on compulsion. Do you think it´s a good dog because he tolerates more compulsion from the handler, probably the opposite but that´s less important if points is more important than character of the dog I guess.


No I would say the serious trainers use the most effective tools available. 
Maybe one day I will train a dog with a stick and cheese and post it on youtube. Then i will have seminars and be famous because I didnt use a prong or E Collar. Very impressive.


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## Baillif

Theres plenty of world champions in this that or the other thing using prongs and e collars all the time. Mario isnt dog training jesus.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, I'm not getting into that 'serious' trainer thing. 

As to your questions;

1) If someone is a really bad trainer, to the point that he/she is very cruel that's what anti-cruelty laws are for. Additionally when at an IPO trial with my trainer he picked out a couple of dogs that *possibly* had been trained with too much compulsion. The judge picked up on it as well and they didn't do well. So even in the U.S. the trend is to have happy, upbeat, willing dogs no matter if prongs or not are used. If someone uses a prong too harshly chances are they will be penalized in competition, if they are caught abusing the dog severely then cruelty charges may apply. This IMO is how it should be, based on THE act, not the tool. Cruel with a stick, cruel with a baseball bat, cruel with a prong shouldn't matter what is used.

2) Public opinion is fickle. Right now the push back is for 'balanced training'. Just yesterday I guided two new clients to my trainer who IF needed will use prong or e collars, though he always tries to use them as little as possible. I explained what a 'balanced trainer' means and afterwards they understood and agreed. Education, it's key and for my part I will continue to educate where and when I can for the benefit of the dogs and their owners.


3) Is a dog better because it can tolerate compulsion? As I admitted, conjecture on my part. On a continuum it depends right? The continuum being is it a top level bite sport dog expected to take a lot of pressure? It's not possible to say yes to something like that all the time. Again, not saying in absolutes but it is human nature to not be willing to admit that a mistake has been made with a dog/selection/training process <now that is not conjecture!  I'll have to ask my trainer about that!

btw, just curious, I thought I had read in another thread sometime ago you are a member of the military there, yes?




björn said:


> I don´t see the connection with serious trainers and what tools they use, if serious in this case means someone who is very good at understanding dogs and their training, just because someone use tools because it´s easier and more effective doesn´t for sure make him the better trainer. The serious and best trainers would be those who are able to train dogs on a high level without prongs and e-collars if this is regarded as such an important tool, I mean this must be very unique skills it seems
> 
> Gwen, do you mean there is no problem if someone is a bad trainer and use more tools than needed because of this? Will this look good for the general public? How it can lead to lower standards I don ´t know, especially since the best trainers seems to move away from methods that was more based on compulsion. Do you think it´s a good dog because he tolerates more compulsion from the handler, probably the opposite but that´s less important if points is more important than character of the dog I guess.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Blitz, 

Stick, cheese, turn your back then spin and 'alpha roll'. That should catapult you to the top ratings!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I could be just like Cesar. Have my own clip entitled Blitz beats dogs *with stick! It would go viral.


----------



## Chip18

Baillif said:


> I'm not entirely convinced he was "just sending a vibration." Looked like a fairly high level stim to me but maybe that dog was just a wuss or there had been some conditioning done before hand to make the vibration a warning to a larger stim and it caused the dog to act like he has been stimmed.
> 
> Lots of people on training forums were in an uproar about that episode and it was the only reason I watched it. Was pretty tame though.


LOL,maybe your right? But maybe that’s what he "said" to his audience?

When I first got here I was semi anti prong but when I looked at my arguments against prongs I realized I was only against the tools incorrect use, then I realized "any" tool could be improperly used. 

I remember what you had said, then I saw it and I was like! 

Rocky gave me that same problem for months with Gunther, I had did "mostly" every thing right. Front door dash was a mistake on my part..every dog for himself.:blush:

Couldn't use a prong on him or Dominate dog collar (which he fully qualified for!) because he has wobbler’s.

So I went the cussing, head locking, tension in the house, walking on egg shell,stitches in the hand route ,while feeling like I had a ticking bomb in the house! Not recommend!

My problem was "solved" when Gunther passed in 2010  (not fight related) so Rocky was now Top Dog. 

Had I knew about e collars and or seen that show back then... yeah I would have happily lit Rocky's butt up like a Christmas tree! Just saying.


----------



## björn

Baillif said:


> Theres plenty of world champions in this that or the other thing using prongs and e collars all the time. Mario isnt dog training jesus.


Yes, but that´s not so strange considering it´normal and accepted in many countries, but it´s the fact people can train a dog without it and obviously still get good results, that´s my whole point because the argument seems to be you can´t do so because it´s not effective, I guess then people mean it´s not enough to have "only" a legal collar like a chain/leathercollar and yourself to work with.

Blitzkrieg, mario shouldn´t do a seminar either then, I mean if he don´t need to use prongs and e-collars As I said I know people who trains militarydogs for a living, have competed in mondioring, IPO and other sports on high level who don´t use prongs or e-collars, if they say they don´t use these tools and you never seen them use them in training or seminars, isn´t it logical they are telling the truth and not lying, or are all using them behind closed door?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Bjorn we get a lot of seminars at my local club. We get some very successful people in here one thing we learned is:
Many of these successful people have success with a certain type of dog. What they do works with that dog and not so well with others.

As for all these high quality ring and IPO people..Ill believe it when I see it.


----------



## Baillif

björn said:


> Yes, but that´s not so strange considering it´normal and accepted in many countries, but it´s the fact people can train a dog without it and obviously still get good results, that´s my whole point because the argument seems to be you can´t do so because it´s not effective, I guess then people mean it´s not enough to have "only" a legal collar like a chain/leathercollar and yourself to work with.
> 
> Blitzkrieg, mario shouldn´t do a seminar either then, I mean if he don´t need to use prongs and e-collars As I said I know people who trains militarydogs for a living, have competed in mondioring, IPO and other sports on high level who don´t use prongs or e-collars, if they say they don´t use these tools and you never seen them use them in training or seminars, isn´t it logical they are telling the truth and not lying, or are all using them behind closed door?


I can train without e collars or prongs I do so whenever I feel like it. Just like sometimes I train without food and sometimes I train without play and then sometimes that might be all I use. They're tools. I could swim without flippers on but flippers are super nice as tools. 

The argument is and has been they are super effective, minimally stressful on the dog when used correctly and banning them has been the campaign goal of ignorant ****ty dog trainers if you can even call them that.


----------



## Baillif

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No I would say the serious trainers use the most effective tools available.
> Maybe one day I will train a dog with a stick and cheese and post it on youtube. Then i will have seminars and be famous because I didnt use a prong or E Collar. Very impressive.


Ed Frawley will secretly video tape it and sell it as a DVD series without giving you a dime.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> Ed Frawley will secretly video tape it and sell it as a DVD series without giving you a dime.


 
Haha well from what I hear that will put me in high company. As long as he doesnt narrate it, that I could not stand!


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bjorn we get a lot of seminars at my local club. We get some very successful people in here one thing we learned is:
> Many of these successful people have success with a certain type of dog. What they do works with that dog and not so well with others.
> 
> As for all these high quality ring and IPO people..Ill believe it when I see it.


I can send you some examples of miltarydogs and sportdogs who are trained without e-collars and prongs in a PM if you want some examples of these trainers I was thinking about. They are good enough to compete in IPO worldchampion or place on the podium in mondio/other sports at least

I think all dogs benefit from smart training, where more focus is on positive reinforcement and not so much on punish behaviours, can´t see why this shouldn´t fit all dogs, especially the stronger ones. But I think you are correct that top sportpeople often seeks dogs fitted for their trainingmethods, but this I think isn´t the same as they want the strongest dogs, could be they just want dogs who fits for their style of training and who are able to score very high points.

Sportdogs in countries like france,belgium,hollland are often living in a kennel and may not get so much attention besides the training. In scandinavia most are living in a family and get´s more stimulation and are apart of ordinary life more. THis I think gives also a better relationship with the dog because you spend more time with it in ordinary life. A dog living in a kennel and have much energy to spend when taken to the trainingfield may be a bit harder to get a communication with when it´s charged upp for bitework , and if we also combine that fact with not so refined trainingmethods in all places and a tradition of "we have always done this way" it´s not strange they use tools and methods they could have been without in different circumstances.

Good training I doesn´t matter where you live, seen better or worse in many countries. Now e-collar and prongs are forbidden so either we train without them or we need to hide in the bushes, but it´s not like quality trainers today have a hard time to train a dog or must hide their training as someone thought earlier. I also want to point out that common sense teels use a correction that causes the same amount of discomfort isn´t better or worse if you use legal ways or not, but why go there if you don´t need it, it´s because people feel they have a problem they need to test these tools, or in some cases results are more important than what tools and methods you use to get there.


----------



## Baillif

The higher level people aren't just relying on the tools to bring obedience they leverage relationship too. Food can be a wedge to getting a relationship but the games are where you can really take that relationship with the dog to the next level. Again I primarily use them as guidance not punishers. If people are primarily using them as punishers or high intensity negative reinforcers they are missing out on a bigger picture. The ignorant view them as such.

At least in Zebus training the primary fuel or will to work doesn't come from the stick it comes from the carrot. Training is kept fun even if it gets serious or you're doing it wrong.


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## Chip18

I find the concept of using an E collar to teach dogs "not' to do something easier then the concept of using it to train them "to do" something?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> I can send you some examples of miltarydogs and sportdogs who are trained without e-collars and prongs in a PM if you want some examples of these trainers I was thinking about. They are good enough to compete in IPO worldchampion or place on the podium in mondio/other sports at least
> 
> I think all dogs benefit from smart training, where more focus is on positive reinforcement and not so much on punish behaviours, can´t see why this shouldn´t fit all dogs, especially the stronger ones. But I think you are correct that top sportpeople often seeks dogs fitted for their trainingmethods, but this I think isn´t the same as they want the strongest dogs, could be they just want dogs who fits for their style of training and who are able to score very high points.
> 
> Sportdogs in countries like france,belgium,hollland are often living in a kennel and may not get so much attention besides the training. In scandinavia most are living in a family and get´s more stimulation and are apart of ordinary life more. THis I think gives also a better relationship with the dog because you spend more time with it in ordinary life. A dog living in a kennel and have much energy to spend when taken to the trainingfield may be a bit harder to get a communication with when it´s charged upp for bitework , and if we also combine that fact with not so refined trainingmethods in all places and a tradition of "we have always done this way" it´s not strange they use tools and methods they could have been without in different circumstances.
> 
> Good training I doesn´t matter where you live, seen better or worse in many countries. Now e-collar and prongs are forbidden so either we train without them or we need to hide in the bushes, but it´s not like quality trainers today have a hard time to train a dog or must hide their training as someone thought earlier. I also want to point out that common sense teels use a correction that causes the same amount of discomfort isn´t better or worse if you use legal ways or not, but why go there if you don´t need it, it´s because people feel they have a problem they need to test these tools, or in some cases results are more important than what tools and methods you use to get there.


 
Bjorn your comments about prongs and E Collars lead me to truly believe you have no clue how to use them properly. Its not that we dont use rewards in training, its not about big corrections or levels of discomfort. thats why in the end i think these arguments are pointless. 

There is simply no other tool that offers the flexibility of a prong or E Collar. When I first got into working dogs it was all choke chain and verbal praise it got the job done.
Now I know better ways, your PM were interesting but again its a very few people in a very large world of sport and service training. I did not say it was impossible I said its not the best of most effective way for most trainers and dogs. 
You can feel free to train any way you like thats your right. Were I have issues is when govt starts telling me how I should train as if they know better.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's not the govt though.

It's the govt listening to the loudest voice in the room in this case.

That's why we've got to push back when we can.

I'm doing it when ever I get the chance in person and online.


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## björn

How are people using then them? A correction is a correction whatever tool you use, it´s not like people who use prong/e-collars correct less than those who train with other tools and methods in a good way. Some use much and heavy corrections, some less, this goes for low levels to people participating in championships. Again, just like mario said, he doesn´t need much and strong corrections because he is a good trainer who trains differently, just like other good trainers in sweden/norway aren´t depend on what tools they use, that´s only a small part in the bigger picture. Of course good trainer know how to use both corrections and rewards, and I don´t know anyone who don´t use it in some form for protectiondogs. Some do use it more than others thou because either they are not so skilled, they use whatever they want to get fast results the quickest way or they use methods they are familiar with. 

Just look at competitons also on championships, it´s not like all dogs look to be in harmony with the trainer and the situation, there is a spann from dogs who look not so happy, some who are more "happy" but shows signs of stress and frustration, then there are those who looks confident and in harmony with both handler and the situation. Even judges doesn´t seems to see it all times. And a majority of these people train with prongs /e-collars, so I guess there are many who don´t know how to use corrections with these tools then.

I don´t care who other people train or what tools is legal in certain countries or not. But good training for me isn´t the same as it´s easy and quick if that is what effective means here, I don´t think people who don´t use these tools because of legal ways thinks it´s hard to do without, I don´t think their minds are at corrections "tools" at all because that´s not really the most important part when training a dog. If so everybody would be supertrainers regardless what tools they use. If it is so hard to compete at the top in IPO without e-collars and prongs, doesn´t this just say the sport is focused on wrong things, more extreme "circustricks" than usefull workingtraits and character? Still, people train dogs for all purposes without these tools and do it very well, so let´s not give too much credit to tools over general knowledge about dogs and their training.


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## Baillif

Words words words


----------



## David Winners

All you talk about are corrections with these tools.

There is more to it than that.


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## Blitzkrieg1

So now its ipo's fault?


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## Gwenhwyfair

You can't use e.collars on dolphins.

Bart Bellon gives a history of what has happened in Europe. Complete article linked below.



> Starting in 1986, I began looking beyond Belgian Ring Sport. I developed interest in and followed all the international sports that utilized bitework: French Ring Sport, Mondio Ring, KNPV, and IPO. If you are on the road telling people how to train dogs with positive and negative reinforcement and aversive and corrective stimulation, with the tools of choke collar, pinch collar, whip, e-collar, ball, clicker, food, etc: all that had to be incorporated in a system that could be politically acceptable. In half the countries in Europe where protection sports are popular, pinch collars and e-collars are official banned although used clandestinely. Helmet Raiser was one of the first guys in world who was able to tell people what he was doing in training; his honesty about his training methods were accepted. He could explain things to make them politically acceptable. However, in the midst of a training revolution in Europe in the mid-1990s, we were confronted with the book of Karen Pryor, Don’t Shoot The Dog. The politically active Animal Protection Lobby used this book as the Bible of evidence that only strictly positive training was needed to be effective and humane, and all other methods were demonized. We all had to re-evaluate our training techniques to counter the Animal Protection Lobby again.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> Additionally, throughout the world there is an active component of people who are against anything except for positive training. They are against negative reinforcement tools, and they fight for what they think is in the best interest of the animal. What they forget is that the Karen Pryor theory only worked when the dolphins were hungry and the food did take away unpleasant hunger feelings which is the theory of negative reinforcement: discomfort (hunger) stops when the animal does. *These activists have significant power because they can and do lobby governments to take away the rights of dog owners and trainers and breeders.* In order to keep our rights to breed dogs how we want and train dogs how we want and utilize certain equipment, we need to be able to educate and compromise. We need to make an open door which welcomes newcomers, and we must present our beliefs and techniques in a politically correct fashion. Using these NePoPo techniques, it is always fair to the dog. It has the secondary benefit of being politically palatable.


Balanced Trainers | Bart Bellon - Balanced Trainers


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## Blitzkrieg1

Bart just has to realize there's a better way now. Soon he will learn to be a better trainer.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That or we should invent an e.collar that can be used on dolphins! Poor things, they starve them to death to get them to perform.




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bart just has to realize there's a better way now. Soon he will learn to be a better trainer.


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## glowingtoadfly

Dolphins in an ecollar would be sad. Hunger while hunting is something they experience in the wild...


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## björn

Yes David, but that´s the case with all tools and I don´t know how many times I´ve said dogtraining is more then just tools and corrections, but it seems people miss that point. It seems people are a bit provocated by the fact someone may not need the whole toolbox to train a protection/sportdog


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## Baillif

I bet I could teach a dolphin loose leash swimming with a prong collar.


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## glowingtoadfly

björn said:


> Yes David, but that´s the case with all tools and I don´t know how many times I´ve said dogtraining is more then just tools and corrections, but it seems people miss that point. It seems people are a bit provocated by the fact someone may not need the whole toolbox to train a protection/sportdog


I am following your replies with interest and agreement, Bjorn. It is possible, and there is proof.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well it was meant as counter analogy. Training 500 pound plus sea mammals shouldn't be compared to training domesticated dogs....but let's pursue this a little further.

First, dolphins are wild animals, not domesticated nor in a symbiotic relationship with humans for 10 thousand years. Domestic dogs actually, if you think about it, co-evolved with humans and some anthropologists suggest that without humans there would be no dogs and without dogs there would be no humans. This is not the truth at all with dolphins. Dogs are uniquely suited and in 'their environment' working with man.

Second, dolphins are highly evolved social creatures that are evolved, are designed and meant to be free in huge, huge aquatic environments, NOT confined in concrete swimming pools with unrelated dolphins.

Third, some of the 'PO' people forget withholding food IS a type of "negative". So any trainer that does that and calls him/herself PO is being a hypocrite.

Therefore a book about dog training founded on principles used by sea mammal trainers isn't just wrong, it's ridiculously wrong. 

IMO dolphins and Orcas and other large WILD, highly evolved mammals should not be kept in captivity as that IS cruel.

So Karen Pryor has engaged in and supported abusive practices, herself, you could say.




glowingtoadfly said:


> Dolphins in an ecollar would be sad. Hunger while hunting is something they experience in the wild...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

And....how many times do people have to say, go ahead, with *your* dogs you have the right to pick and choose. NO one is forcing you to use a tool you don't want to use.

The problem is when people take choices AWAY from other dog owners through laws/legislation the line is crossed!




björn said:


> Yes David, but that´s the case with all tools and I don´t know how many times I´ve said dogtraining is more then just tools and corrections, but it seems people miss that point. It seems people are a bit provocated by the fact someone may not need the whole toolbox to train a protection/sportdog


----------



## Baillif

Besides, if dolphins were really as smart as everyone is always saying they wouldn't end up in my tuna sandwich by accident.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:wild: 




baillif said:


> i bet i could teach a dolphin loose leash swimming with a prong collar.


----------



## Nigel

Baillif said:


> Besides, if dolphins were really as smart as everyone is always saying they wouldn't end up in my tuna sandwich by accident.


Lmao!:rofl:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

A lot of people use electric fences, with collars that warn then give a little shock to stop the dog from leaving the yard.

Are those fences going to be banned too? Or are those O.K.?

Then what? More dogs getting PTS in the shelter because they 'kept getting out of the yard'.


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## Baillif

The real problem here is people need to drink a cup of concrete and harden the heck up. Bunch of cupcakes.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Don't make me throw my tea cup at you! 





I always end up scratching my head that people who think prongs are cruel can turn around and throw fellow humans under the bus for much less.




Baillif said:


> The real problem here is people need to drink a cup of concrete and harden the heck up. Bunch of cupcakes.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> A lot of people use electric fences, with collars that warn then give a little shock to stop the dog from leaving the yard.
> 
> Are those fences going to be banned too? Or are those O.K.?
> 
> Then what? More dogs getting PTS in the shelter because they 'kept getting out of the yard'.


Those kind of fences increase "fence fighting" because a dog sees another dog, barks, and gets shocked it can lead to associations with other dogs and getting shocked, and aggression because of that. Prongs and ecollars are different tools because at least the owner is under control of when the correction is given to avoid those associations.


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## Gwenhwyfair

They do if used improperly and the dogs are not properly introduced and trained with the fence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of electric fences but mostly because they often don't work and don't stop strange dogs from getting into your yard and starting problems.

BUT....for those who do want ban e collars it's basically the same concept and I don't see how they could be intellectually honest and exclude them. Speaking again specifically of 'bans' against tools.




glowingtoadfly said:


> Those kind of fences increase "fence fighting" because a dog sees another dog, barks, and gets shocked it can lead to associations with other dogs and getting shocked, and aggression because of that. Prongs and ecollars are different tools because at least the owner is under control of when the correction is given to avoid those associations.


----------



## Blanketback

Electric fences are a false sense of security anyway, since if the dog really wants something bad enough, then off it goes. I'm sure some people have used them and liked them, but properly training the dog not to leave the property is the only way I'd ever want to go. And all this talk about banning the ecollar is making me want to get one, lol.


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## Baillif

Do it


----------



## Shade

glowingtoadfly said:


> *Those kind of fences increase "fence fighting" because a dog sees another dog, barks, and gets shocked it can lead to associations with other dogs and getting shocked, and aggression because of that.* Prongs and ecollars are different tools because at least the owner is under control of when the correction is given to avoid those associations.


My parents had two labs years ago and used the underground fence until the dog run was built, there was no aggression and shocks weren't delivered unless they crossed the boundary. They were smart enough to realize the shock came from crossing the boundary not anything else. It's not a bark collar.

The problem with your post is that you're assuming a lot, it's one thing to say "I believe" or "it can cause" rather than a blanket statement like you've made. We have a 6' high wood privacy fence encasing our backyard, my GSD will fence fight with one of the neighbours dog but will leave every other one alone if it's behind a fence, it's not the fence's fault that the dogs don't like each other and it certainly doesn't increase the aggression. If that was true then he would be fighting with every dog that barked at him from behind a fence and what a nightmare that would be!

If anything my pet peeve with underground electric fences is it does absolutely nothing to protect the dogs from other animals getting in. So a dog gets into your yard and suddenly it's your dog that's in a major disadvantage because can't leave the designated area without getting shocked while the other dog or animal is home free to go wherever the heck it wants. Personally, I absolutely hate the things

Oh and by the way, prongs and ecollars are only as good as the person using them. It doesn't automatically make you a great trainer and the dog understands, in every day life outside I see them misused so often it's sad. It's one of the main reasons why I stayed away from them for so long, I had never seen one fitted and utilized properly so I had no positive experience when them at all.


----------



## Baillif

Shade said:


> My parents had two labs years ago and used the underground fence until the dog run was built, there was no aggression and shocks weren't delivered unless they crossed the boundary. They were smart enough to realize the shock came from crossing the boundary not anything else. It's not a bark collar.
> 
> The problem with your post is that you're assuming a lot, it's one thing to say "I believe" or "it can cause" rather than a blanket statement like you've made. We have a 6' high wood privacy fence encasing our backyard, my GSD will fence fight with one of the neighbours dog but will leave every other one alone if it's behind a fence, it's not the fence's fault that the dogs don't like each other and it certainly doesn't increase the aggression. If that was true then he would be fighting with every dog that barked at him from behind a fence and what a nightmare that would be!
> 
> If anything my pet peeve with underground electric fences is it does absolutely nothing to protect the dogs from other animals getting in. So a dog into your yard and suddenly it's your dog that's in a major disadvantage because can't leave the designated area without getting shocked while the other dog or animal is home free to go wherever the heck it wants. Personally, I absolutely hate the things
> 
> Oh and by the way, prongs and ecollars are only as good as the person using them. It doesn't automatically make you a great trainer and the dog understands, in every day life outside I see them misused so often it's sad. It's one of the main reasons why I stayed away from them for so long, I had never seen one fitted and utilized properly so I had no positive experience when them at all.


We should all listen to this guy more


----------



## Shade

Baillif said:


> We should all listen to this guy more


lol I'm female 

Just speaking from my own experience


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Shade said:


> My parents had two labs years ago and used the underground fence until the dog run was built, there was no aggression and shocks weren't delivered unless they crossed the boundary. They were smart enough to realize the shock came from crossing the boundary not anything else. It's not a bark collar.
> 
> The problem with your post is that you're assuming a lot, it's one thing to say "I believe" or "it can cause" rather than a blanket statement like you've made. We have a 6' high wood privacy fence encasing our backyard, my GSD will fence fight with one of the neighbours dog but will leave every other one alone if it's behind a fence, it's not the fence's fault that the dogs don't like each other and it certainly doesn't increase the aggression. If that was true then he would be fighting with every dog that barked at him from behind a fence and what a nightmare that would be!
> 
> If anything my pet peeve with underground electric fences is it does absolutely nothing to protect the dogs from other animals getting in. So a dog into your yard and suddenly it's your dog that's in a major disadvantage because can't leave the designated area without getting shocked while the other dog or animal is home free to go wherever the heck it wants. Personally, I absolutely hate the things
> 
> Oh and by the way, prongs and ecollars are only as good as the person using them. It doesn't automatically make you a great trainer and the dog understands, in every day life outside I see them misused so often it's sad. It's one of the main reasons why I stayed away from them for so long, I had never seen one fitted and utilized properly so I had no positive experience when them at all.


Oh, I definitely agree that prongs and ecollars are often abused. A few months ago, a random man on the street accosted us when we were out with Skadi because she refused to take her ball when I told her to. He then proceeded to eloquently demonstrate their misuse on his pitbull, who had done nothing wrong, just to "show us how it worked". I meant to use the word "can", not all dogs are smart enough to figure out the fence...


----------



## Baillif

Shade said:


> lol I'm female
> 
> Just speaking from my own experience


Oops gal then.


----------



## Shade

Baillif said:


> Oops gal then.


No harm done, you're forgiven


----------



## Nigel

Baillif said:


> The real problem here is people need to drink a cup of concrete and harden the heck up. Bunch of cupcakes.


This was me. My dogs have good OB, but not good enough, I needed to harden up in regards to corrections, I have as of late and seeing the difference already.


----------



## björn

We shouldn´t confuse PO with positive smarter trainingmethods that involves less force and compulsions. Some people in EU was very heavyhanded with the same tools(e-collars/prongs) they have today, the difference is same people have the same tools but use them much less when it comes to corrections( some of the better trainers that is) So prongs and e-collars are not more new and better than people who use other tools, so it´s wrong to say I used to have a choke or other legal collar but now I know better.

Also, they haven´t found new trainingmethods because it´s political correct and more nice to the dog, it´s because it´s give better results and as a bonus it´s nice for the dog, for people who cares about that aspect that is

Some can argue a person should be able to use what they want, but since so many can´t it´s not so strange clubs in EU have forbidden e-collars, or even prongs in some places, and other methods who are considered cruel, it´s dogs for sport afterall so it´s not like it´s a lifesaving activity. It´s much truth in the saying if you are so good you can use an e-collar or prong you really don´t need it. If there is no other solution to a serious problem that a competent trainer can fix, like hunting, I understand why an e-collar may be tempting,how good it really is in such situations seems to differ what I´ve heard from people who used them before. Sometimes I guess you have to accept not all problems can be fixed.


----------



## mego

I just always tell people that I would rather give my dog an e collar stim a few times vs a nice thump by a moving car if she ever decides running is more appealing than steak 

Really it depends on the level of training you want and the dog you have. I think the bans on the tools are dumb, a better route imo would just be to make them harder to obtain. Stop selling sharp prongs that fall apart at petsmart and crap e collars with 5 levels of stim.

People are always saying that these things should be banned because they are inhumane, but I have never seen a dog that has a prong or e collar properly used that fears these tools or totally shuts down (**Just that I haven't seen this, not that it doesn't exist - the circle of trainers around me is full of people that use them right, so I know that's a small sample pool). 

My dog hid under the table when I would bring out that face collar gentle leader, but she doesn't mind a prong, doesn't mind an ecollar, knows it's her fault if she gets a zap if she blows off a serious command like a recall and bounces right back into playing. So ban face collars? lol no. It's all dependent on the dog and how much time people put into learning these things. No bans can help with that, it's not solving the problem.

I don't even want to get going about that "if a trainer was really good they could get all the results they wanted positively". Sure give me a steak I can make any dog sit, but making that reliable and 100 percent of the time? Nah. Satiation exists..that being said, some dogs are so into their handlers they never need a correction, but just not the case for my dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

björn said:


> We shouldn´t confuse PO with positive smarter trainingmethods that involves less force and compulsions. Some people in EU was very heavyhanded with the same tools(e-collars/prongs) they have today, the difference is same people have the same tools but use them much less when it comes to corrections( some of the better trainers that is) So prongs and e-collars are not more new and better than people who use other tools, so it´s wrong to say I used to have a choke or other legal collar but now I know better.
> 
> Also, they haven´t found new trainingmethods because it´s political correct and more nice to the dog, it´s because it´s give better results and as a bonus it´s nice for the dog, for people who cares about that aspect that is
> 
> Some can argue a person should be able to use what they want, but since so many can´t it´s not so strange clubs in EU have forbidden e-collars, or even prongs in some places, and other methods who are considered cruel, it´s dogs for sport afterall so it´s not like it´s a lifesaving activity. It´s much truth in the saying if you are so good you can use an e-collar or prong you really don´t need it. If there is no other solution to a serious problem that a competent trainer can fix, like hunting, I understand why an e-collar may be tempting,how good it really is in such situations seems to differ what I´ve heard from people who used them before. Sometimes I guess you have to accept not all problems can be fixed.


Lol I look forward to all these better way trainers dominating the podium soon...
Soon dog sport in many EU countries will be banned by the AR crazies then what will you all do...


----------



## selzer

Head halters for dogs and flexi-leads, probably should be banned, if you're busy banning tools that can be abused. These two, are flipping dangerous. 

I think it is a slippery slope anyway. 

They want to tell you what dogs you can own, what surgeries those dogs must or must not have, what tools you can use with your dog (chains, tethers, and tie outs, as well as crates and kennels are all tools).

Where does it end? 

Will we have random auditors that will come by and check our paperwork, to ensure our dogs are vaccinated, desexed, and have had x-hours of training, will check the log on how many hours our dogs were crated, kenneled or tethered, will ensure that our dogs were given vigorous exercise for a set period each day, properly logged and foot-printed by our canine _partner_, tested the dogs weight and body-mass fat to muscle index, and ensured that there was evidence that the dog sleeps on the bed?

At some point, you have to put the government in their place. The people making the laws are not put in office for the expertise as dog-people. Some are caving to the lobbying of AR groups and HSUS or whatever national humane organization other countries might have. 

The best defense is a good offense. I suggest pet owners fight back whenever they see any specific dog-related legislation other than straight cruelty and neglect laws being proposed. These lobbyists are making a living off of the suffering of dogs. The heads of these organizations are living off of the suffering of critters, and doing it very well indeed. When legislators cave to these lobbyists, we the people, should be out there on the news and in our newspapers, naming the legislators that have been _influenced _by these organizations, and get them the heck out of office. 

If this touches on politics, it is not specific to one party or another, and it has to do with dogs, so I think it is totally acceptable under our current politics statements.


----------



## björn

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol I look forward to all these better way trainers dominating the podium soon...
> Soon dog sport in many EU countries will be banned by the AR crazies then what will you all do...


Well, haven´t you seen the success of some of the german and finnish malinois people in IPO the last years, besides mario? Also, here in my country in other sports it isn´t people who hide in the bushes who dominate.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well if it weren't meant in jest and this weren't the internet.

I would, tough guy.

btw: speaking of people being tough. I think if anything we've gotten tougher and meaner in a lot of ways. It's just for some reason when it comes to dogs that all flies out the window......




Baillif said:


> Do it


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue got consistent, objective and verifiable proof of that? 

For my part I see on a daily basis people getting dragged around by their dogs, who are choking and gagging as they lean into a flat collar. Often these folks will feel inclined to give me dirty looks while my dog is in a nice sit or loose leash walk. Very smug they are, speaking of smug....

In red, that's smug as it insinuates even proper use of the ecollar or prong isn't nice. We have know way of really knowing how the dog is perceiving or internalizing this sort of training. We can tell if the dog is happy, upbeat, not cowering or flinching during or after having been trained with a prong or ecollar properly. Therefore it's safe to conclude, given how many people DO train with prongs/ecollars yet their dogs show no signs of abuse or stress, that once again you're jumping to conclusions to support a weak premise. 






björn said:


> We shouldn´t confuse PO with positive smarter trainingmethods that involves less force and compulsions. Some people in EU was very heavyhanded with the same tools(e-collars/prongs) they have today, the difference is same people have the same tools but use them much less when it comes to corrections( some of the better trainers that is) So prongs and e-collars are not more new and better than people who use other tools, so it´s wrong to say I used to have a choke or other legal collar but now I know better.
> 
> Also, they haven´t found new trainingmethods because it´s political correct and more nice to the dog,* it´s because it´s give better results* and as a bonus it´s nice for the dog, for people who cares about that aspect that is
> 
> Some can argue a person should be able to use what they want, but since so many can´t it´s not so strange clubs in EU have forbidden e-collars, or even prongs in some places, and other methods who are considered cruel, it´s dogs for sport afterall so it´s not like it´s a lifesaving activity. It´s much truth in the saying if you are so good you can use an e-collar or prong you really don´t need it. If there is no other solution to a serious problem that a competent trainer can fix, like hunting, I understand why an e-collar may be tempting,how good it really is in such situations seems to differ what I´ve heard from people who used them before. Sometimes I guess you have to accept not all problems can be fixed.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Now that you mention it, I've heard folks say a time or two that crates are cruel, SMH.

In red.... :thumbup:









selzer said:


> Head halters for dogs and flexi-leads, probably should be banned, if you're busy banning tools that can be abused. These two, are flipping dangerous.
> 
> I think it is a slippery slope anyway.
> 
> They want to tell you what dogs you can own, what surgeries those dogs must or must not have, what tools you can use with your dog (chains, tethers, and tie outs, as well as crates and kennels are all tools).
> 
> Where does it end?
> 
> Will we have random auditors that will come by and check our paperwork, to ensure our dogs are vaccinated, desexed, and have had x-hours of training, will check the log on how many hours our dogs were crated, kenneled or tethered, will ensure that our dogs were given vigorous exercise for a set period each day, properly logged and foot-printed by our canine _partner_, tested the dogs weight and body-mass fat to muscle index, and ensured that there was evidence that the dog sleeps on the bed?
> 
> At some point, you have to put the government in their place. The people making the laws are not put in office for the expertise as dog-people. Some are caving to the lobbying of AR groups and HSUS or whatever national humane organization other countries might have.
> 
> *The best defense is a good offense. I suggest pet owners fight back whenever they see any specific dog-related legislation other than straight cruelty and neglect laws being proposed*. These lobbyists are making a living off of the suffering of dogs. The heads of these organizations are living off of the suffering of critters, and doing it very well indeed. When legislators cave to these lobbyists, we the people, should be out there on the news and in our newspapers, naming the legislators that have been _influenced _by these organizations, and get them the heck out of office.
> 
> If this touches on politics, it is not specific to one party or another, and it has to do with dogs, so I think it is totally acceptable under our current politics statements.


----------



## selzer

Aren't dolphins a salt-water critter? I just can't see how the e-collar would work on a dolphin. Don't the trainers go in the water too? I mean, the current would zap the dolphin and would travel through the water, well until the whole mechanism corroded from the salt water. I just can't see how that would work.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Most dolphins are salt water animals. There are, however, a species of freshwater dolphins that live in the Amazon. 

BUT....since you bring it up, it would be sort of like tossing dogs into a saltwater pool and training them like dolphins, yes?




selzer said:


> Aren't dolphins a salt-water critter? I just can't see how the e-collar would work on a dolphin. Don't the trainers go in the water too? I mean, the current would zap the dolphin and would travel through the water, well until the whole mechanism corroded from the salt water. I just can't see how that would work.


----------



## selzer

Well, Jeeze-Louise! Now, I am going to have to carry around a big old sack of fish to train my dogs with. Yuck!!!! I hate fish. Sardines, Ew! Do you think dogs would want to do tricks for smelly sardines? 

Probably. 

No, I think Dolphins are different than dogs. Maybe not totally. Maybe some things would work the same. But current can flow through salt water, so an e-collar will not work the same on dolphins than it would on dogs out of salt water. The effectiveness of the device would not be the same.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!

I think you misunderstood my comment about dolphins and ecollars. It *was* referencing Karen Pryor, dolphin training vs dog training and how that morphed into prong bans. See earlier post with Bart Bellon article that I linked.


P.s. Ilda like sardines!



selzer said:


> Well, Jeeze-Louise! Now, I am going to have to carry around a big old sack of fish to train my dogs with. Yuck!!!! I hate fish. Sardines, Ew! Do you think dogs would want to do tricks for smelly sardines?
> 
> Probably.
> 
> No, I think Dolphins are different than dogs. Maybe not totally. Maybe some things would work the same. But current can flow through salt water, so an e-collar will not work the same on dolphins than it would on dogs out of salt water. The effectiveness of the device would not be the same.


----------



## Baillif

Surgically implant the device in the dolphin with an external port for batteries. Problem solved. You guys saw it here first. I want royalties dammit.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I was thinking water proof and low voltage but that works!


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## Baillif

A blast from it on 100 will teach flipper to stop drowning trainers in the holding tank because he was frustrated he didnt get his tuna


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## Baillif

Also if they're afraid of the bad publicity they can just do what sea world does best and lie about it. Claim it's a port used for injection of medicine!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Don't mess with the Ukraine Combat Dolphins....which have now been taken over by the Russians, I wonder how they trained these guys!










Meet Russia's Newest Recruits: Ukraine's Combat Dolphins


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## Baillif

With fish and probably a well placed and well deserved head butt or two when the dolphin had it coming.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Now, you know world class trainers never lie.....



Baillif said:


> Also if they're afraid of the bad publicity they can just do what sea world does best and lie about it. Claim it's a port used for injection of medicine!


----------



## Baillif

Don't need to. That's what publicists are for.


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## Gwenhwyfair

True that.

So you wanna train dolphins for Russia now? Malis of the sea.....


Oh and how about dolphin underwater ring sports? 




> The dolphins, stationed in a Ukrainian navy oceanarium in Sevastopol, will now attack enemy scuba divers, attach buoys to sea-floor mines, and patrol open waters at the behest of Moscow, according to Russian news service RIA Novosti.


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## Baillif

Ukraine isn't Russia...yet


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> With fish and probably a well placed and well deserved head butt or two when the dolphin had it coming.


Hmm, I though Dolphins killed sharks with head butts? Not sure that's the way to go..just saying.


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## Gwenhwyfair

True but the dolphins are under Russian control. Double agents those dolphins.




Baillif said:


> Ukraine isn't Russia...yet


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I'm trying to picture how the under water decoying would go.....


----------



## Baillif

Chip18 said:


> Hmm, I though Dolphins killed sharks with head butts? Not sure that's the way to go..just saying.


I thought Russians killed sharks with head butts. Maybe just clever propaganda...


----------



## Baillif

Gwenhwyfair said:


> True but the dolphins are under Russian control. Double agents those dolphins.


They were probably the tip of the spear when the Crimea region fell.


----------



## Chip18

Baillif said:


> I thought Russians killed sharks with head butts. Maybe just clever propaganda...


LOL, touché to you sir!


----------



## selzer

I think I like the idea of the dolphins under Russian Control than some of these other places that would load them up with explosives and teach them that tourists give fishes if you pester them enough.


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## björn

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In blue got consistent, objective and verifiable proof of that?
> 
> For my part I see on a daily basis people getting dragged around by their dogs, who are choking and gagging as they lean into a flat collar. Often these folks will feel inclined to give me dirty looks while my dog is in a nice sit or loose leash walk. Very smug they are, speaking of smug....
> 
> In red, that's smug as it insinuates even proper use of the ecollar or prong isn't nice. We have know way of really knowing how the dog is perceiving or internalizing this sort of training. We can tell if the dog is happy, upbeat, not cowering or flinching during or after having been trained with a prong or ecollar properly. Therefore it's safe to conclude, given how many people DO train with prongs/ecollars yet their dogs show no signs of abuse or stress, that once again you're jumping to conclusions to support a weak premise.


 Gwen, just look at the results if you are into dogsports, I doubt training based on heavy corrections and less understanding how dog learns gives you a happy looking dog in obedience and with great controll and drive in the protecionwork at that level. Yes I think this is nicer than some other more brutal methods used before and still is, this is what I mean, nothing else. I´m not talking about petowners, I´m talking about workingdogs for sport/service and their training. 

That many people can´t train their dogs also for the most basic stuff is what it is, still I think that´s a poor argument for allowing everyone to use these tools, it was not that group who was consumer of e-collars and prongs in any large degree here. But sure if someone feels a prong helps them manage their petdog this may bet better than some dogsporter play around with tools and methods that aren´t in the best intresst for the dog. What is "proper" use is also subjective, who judges that, the dog or the owner? 

As I said before, countries have different cultures, it´s not a big deal to fry and whip a dog in some workingdog clubs or use very rough methods, in other countries this is totally not accepted if you should use public clubs. Dogs, even sport/militarydogs can be trained with legal tools in a fair way without being too rough, I guess that´s what you wanted to know to beginn with when someone mentioned these tools are not used much in norway or other countries where they are illegal.


----------



## selzer

Police dogs have to continue to work through punches, kicks, being attacked with a stick, even being shot. How do you ensure that a police dog has that in them, if they never are trained with any aversives?



I am generally against prong collars because too many people slap them on the dog and are good to go, power steering, no need to train the dog, no need to graduate. Now a 130# gal can walk a 120# dog reactive dog, and all is well with the world. 

But, 

Frankly, I think a pop on a prong collar to the right dog, of the right measure, for the right reason is a whole lot more humane than to allow such a dog to go for weeks, months maybe becoming entrenched in a behavior that is self-rewarding and dangerous. 

They have a place in training, and there are a lot of things that we can put on a list of banned products. Are we going to ban the books too? What is next? 

I don't have to worry about cops ticketing me for prong use, even if I did use one, because they all use prongs on their dogs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Right, in other words you've got nothing except 'being nice', 'evil looking' and veiled insults regarding culture. 

Who here has said anything about 'brutal' methods? Because we're not talking about the people who misuse tools. but rather those who use prongs properly and effectively and humanely. Stop insinuating the people who use prongs on this board are being "brutal". It's really poor form and not conducive to an intellectually honest discussion. It's typical however, when you don't have facts to back you up, other then 'some trainers are successful' which NO one is disputing. 

So yeah, 'looking at dogsports', proof does not make, because if I do look at dog sports I see many who DO use prongs and are tops in their sports.

So once again, just saying the same pronouncements over and over is not proof. If one were to look at the sheer volume of dogs trained with and competing at high levels with prongs/ecollars that also negates your opinion.

The ultimate proof would be an objective study monitored and conducted by people who are not invested in the out come.

I don't think the anti-prong people would like that though, because it's really a cultish movement.

Further, bjorn, BANs affect all dog owners, those with companion animals to those top dog sport competitors and everyone in between.

You keep dragging up 'culture' as well. I've overlooked it because for the most part human beings are the same, especially in developed countries and statements like that only devolve in emotionally driven baloney.

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and not perceive your comments as a bash on the United States.......... 

I'm about logic and proof. People, like the comment about Norway, make statements founded on misinformation and misunderstanding. I corrected it. At the very least dogs are still being trained with choke chains, aptly named tool I might add. So just call me the 'smug police' because anyone who thinks they are 'above it all' is just asking to get taken down a notch. It's the nature of reality and has nothing to do with nationality nor the individual.

At the end of the day you've not offered any scientific, deductive logic, empirical evidence to support creating laws which criminalize the use of certain training tools for ALL dog owners in any country. None, nothing, NADA. You can't because it's based on emotions driven by a former dolphin trainer........

I honestly don't care if an individual wants to train their dogs with cookies, daisies and lollipops all I'm asking is do NOT make laws that forces everyone to go down the lollipop path.

That's ALL I am saying, unnecessary laws are UNJUST laws and that is serious!



björn said:


> Gwen, just look at the results if you are into dogsports, I doubt training based on heavy corrections and less understanding how dog learns gives you a happy looking dog in obedience and with great controll and drive in the protecionwork at that level. Yes I think this is nicer than some other more brutal methods used before and still is, this is what I mean, nothing else. I´m not talking about petowners, I´m talking about workingdogs for sport/service and their training.
> 
> That many people can´t train their dogs also for the most basic stuff is what it is, still I think that´s a poor argument for allowing everyone to use these tools, it was not that group who was consumer of e-collars and prongs in any large degree here. But sure if someone feels a prong helps them manage their petdog this may bet better than some dogsporter play around with tools and methods that aren´t in the best intresst for the dog. What is "proper" use is also subjective, who judges that, the dog or the owner?
> 
> As I said before, countries have different cultures, it´s not a big deal to fry and whip a dog in some workingdog clubs or use very rough methods, in other countries this is totally not accepted if you should use public clubs. Dogs, even sport/militarydogs can be trained with legal tools in a fair way without being too rough, I guess that´s what you wanted to know to beginn with when someone mentioned these tools are not used much in norway or other countries where they are illegal.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...and it's time we make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen in the U.S. 

Since most dog owners are not involved in sports and even fewer at top level competition it's the folks who have dogs with behavior issues that also need to be educated. 

Push back on social media, in person, support your trainer who uses the balanced approach. Explain how in some cases tools like a prong collar, used properly are effective and humane and can save dogs lives.

So many dogs end up in shelters due to behavior issues. They are adults with the problems already 'built in'. What if a few sessions with a good trainer and e collar or prong could have solved the problems and the dog stayed with it's family? How many dogs get put down that may have been saved? Most dogs are adults that are put into and pulled out of shelters.

That's what I tell people, fix the problem so you can live with the dog! A prong or ecollar is a lot better then a heart stick in a shelter.

A trainer who quit helping train at a shelter wrote an article about his experiences:



> _Oh we know about her…and her method. But we’ve also tried the method, and found that it just doesn’t solve the needs of the dogs. It’s an incomplete way of training, and doesn’t do anything to solve behavior problems in any dog. Clickers have a small place in a trainers bag of tricks, but there are also other ways. You know yourself that every dog is unique and has different needs…What ********** does just doesn’t cover them all. A more Balanced Approach is the what helps the dogs…not plastic toys. *And the other consideration is this in regard to Clicker training…It can’t be taught over the course of two days! Once ********** leaves here, you’ll have an entire volunteer group doing it wrong anyway. Confusion will reign*, *as you have bad science being used by poor performers*. Most of the dogs that pass thru here either arrive with issues, or develop them while here. Non-Aversive training will only create more issues that will create behavior problems. You, more than all of us, must know how many shelter dogs are euthanized each year because someone ”In the Know” says, “ that dog can’t be helped, so killing it is the only safe option .”_
> 
> She <shelter director> looked at us like she knew a secret kept from us. _“Well, I think this is the right thing to do for the shelter…Are you aware that in Europe, Wales I think she said, and in a couple of states here in the US, there is already legislation to ban certain training tools and regulate the dog training industry based on training methods? This is coming, whether anybody likes it or not…You have to keep up with the science.”_
> 
> The rest of that conversation was short and concise, ending with myself and one other talented dog trainer resigning from volunteering at the Rescue. *Political Correctness* has come home to roost in Ohio. And it’s probably headed for your home as well, under the guidance of the local political correctness squad. Over something that ”correctness” doesn’t begin to fathom….Our ability to train our dogs in the best methods for them…Balanced, kind, and uniquely suited to each dog, has been, and will be, under fire by these groups until we, as balanced trainers/handlers begin to defend what’s right.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> I’m happy to see a few of them out there *now beginning to stir the pot and educate about Balanced, natural training. People like Wade Morrell, Ivan Balabanov, Kevin Kinker, Kevin and Cheryl Goedes,* and others I’ll mention in another post.


 Why I’m Finished Volunteering at Animal Shelters… | German Shepherd Adventures!

(emphasis added is mine)


----------



## Baillif

Meh.

To a large extent the balanced training approach is difficult to really learn and master without someone who really knows what they're doing coaching and pointing out any of your issues. You have to know the theory too otherwise you just end up blindly following someone else's method and when things go wrong you end up clueless as to how to fix them.

It's easy to become too reliant on the tools to get behavior or too ham fisted or to become too focused on the aversive side of things and forget the motivation side of behavior or the relationship with the dog.

On the flip side it's easy to end up so coddling of the dog that you let them walk over you.

Plus there's issues of timing. On the aversive side of things timing is difference between things being clear to the dog and things just being confusing. People have a hard enough time getting the timing right with a clicker or marker for rewards, so in a way I'd rather see them working the +r side of things before they get into the other stuff. Some people just don't have the chops for it. Not saying they can't develop them, but the average pet owner doesn't care enough to try.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

meh?

The point is don't make laws banning certain tools.

As you pointed out, there's no perfect trainer, nor pet owner, nor solution but the macro point here is let the tools be in the bag if needed. 

I don't want to get too bogged down in details. Let's not get too nit picky when its the BAN part that really bugs me.

(btw a lot of the stuff you write here is very similar to what my trainer says. "Balanced" training denotes a willingness to use different methods depending on the needs of the dog and owner. It's about not being married to any one thing in training, tool OR ideology.)




Baillif said:


> Meh.
> 
> To a large extent the balanced training approach is difficult to really learn and master without someone who really knows what they're doing coaching and pointing out any of your issues. You have to know the theory too otherwise you just end up blindly following someone else's method and when things go wrong you end up clueless as to how to fix them.
> 
> It's easy to become too reliant on the tools to get behavior or too ham fisted or to become too focused on the aversive side of things and forget the motivation side of behavior or the relationship with the dog.
> 
> On the flip side it's easy to end up so coddling of the dog that you let them walk over you.
> 
> Plus there's issues of timing. On the aversive side of things timing is difference between things being clear to the dog and things just being confusing. People have a hard enough time getting the timing right with a clicker or marker for rewards, so in a way I'd rather see them working the +r side of things before they get into the other stuff. Some people just don't have the chops for it. Not saying they can't develop them, but the average pet owner doesn't care enough to try.


----------



## Baillif

Well again as I said before I wouldn't mind licensing of the tools. Make people learn about em and qualify to use them. The job security wouldn't be bad either, but yeah. Whole other can of worms. 

Don't get me wrong if someone talks crap about how horrible the e collar or prong collar is Ill be the first to call them out on their lack of understanding. I don't think it matters all that much at the end of the day. Battle lines have been drawn for a while now. Every client we get here comes away with at least a basic understanding of the theory behind why we do things the way we do. Many leave with prong collars or e collars as well so believe me I'm in the trench lines.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Licensing for the trainers, maybe......

Overall I'd rather we have licensing for the dogs and dogs that pass a certain test can be allowed more freedoms in public places. Sort of like service dogs. I mentioned this idea in another thread.

I don't like rules/laws/regulations that are put into place where no real problems exist. Most dogs owned in this country never compete or train for sports. Most dogs that end up in the shelter with cruelty issues have been beaten, had acid poured on them (lately that seems to be the 'thing' ) embedded collars, neglected, last night a dog was reported whose mouth had been taped shut for weeks.

The reason I mention all this is because A) We don't see 'ecollar or prong' abuse being a big or serious problem B) why should we create regulations for tools that aren't causing problems? 

Anti cruelty laws are sufficient to address these issues because those laws don't discriminate based on tools but rather the act perpetrated on the dog, be it with acid or electrician's tape.



Baillif said:


> Well again as I said before I wouldn't mind licensing of the tools. Make people learn about em and qualify to use them. The job security wouldn't be bad either, but yeah. Whole other can of worms.
> 
> Don't get me wrong if someone talks crap about how horrible the e collar or prong collar is Ill be the first to call them out on their lack of understanding. I don't think it matters all that much at the end of the day. Battle lines have been drawn for a while now. Every client we get here comes away with at least a basic understanding of the theory behind why we do things the way we do. Many leave with prong collars or e collars as well so believe me I'm in the trench lines.


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## björn

Gwen, some countries have stricter animal laws how dogs shold be treated and keept, in other countries this is far less restrictions, just take bull fighting as an example in spain, this is not OK in many other countries. When I say "brutal" I don´t mean a certian tools are more "evil" than others, I mean the tolerance for how and why they are used is different, just because some "worldchampion" uses these for their sport doesn´t mean they use it good and for any other reasons than gaining points on competitons. Som use all tools and methods in a way that would be considered animal abuse in different levels, this is due to view on animals(tool or friend) and also how far training has evolved in certain places, if you don´t believe me you should visit some clubs in EU, and US also I guess. I don´t think you need "proof" using heavy corrections due to incompetence with whatever tool is not brutal and questionable, this is what I mean.

I also have said an e-collar for example is some cases could be the least harmfull way to solve a problem. But the thing is all behaviourproblems(if the dog isn´t insane) is due to careless training and lack of understanding of dogs, there is what the problem is, you don´t need these tools if you do correct from the start. And I don´t see where a prong and e-collar would be so superior to other collars and corrections you can use even if you do screw up, it´s not the corrections that fix the problem with lack of communication someone has with their dog. Corrections even took them there in the first place.

A ban may not stop people using these tools if they really like to do it, just like laws on other things doesn´t stop people from doing it anyway. It will however make it harder for those who shouldn´t own one or can´t train a dog without needing it. The policy to not use these tools on workingdog clubs was taken before they were forbidden by law here also, laws didn´t forbidden them on clubs, the reason was to get away from the worst trainers I suppose, who needed more "juice" or just was brutal against dogs in general in training. 

It´s not necessarily wrong to use a prong correction and is no big deal for me if the person is good, but I don´t see where e-collars and prongs are better than other tools and clever training? If you need more "force" than a chokechain and your hands, isn´t then already something gone wrong in training? E-collars for hunting may be somtehing different, to ban them without having certain experts to turn to may be wrong. But even when used by people and certain experts before, the results wasn´t always good, you need to reapeat it again and it wasn´t a quick fix for every dog.

I guess the main difference for me is I think tools are used to freely and as an easy fix in US it seems, when the real problems isn´t the lack of tools or not. In sweden we have more laws designed to protect the wellfare of dogs,but is also better dog knowledge I think, small country with many people involved in workingdogs. Maybe a ban overthere just isn´t working because of this, but the situation here is not the same in general, so I´m not saying you SHOULD ban these tools over there, but its´not like US is the best country in the world for dogs to live with regardless how much freedome you have


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## Blanketback

Bjorn, have you personally ever used a prong collar?


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## björn

No, don´t see the use I would have of it, have seen them used a few times by others thou and it´s standard equipment in many countries when training.


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## Baillif

Blanket be gentle...no reason to catch a warning lol


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## gsdsar

Bjorn, I have a question. Because I am truly ignorant on dog sports in your country. 

How often do they send teams to the World IPO competition? How do the teams rank? Are bite sports popular in your country? 

I ask, because if things like prongs and ecollars are illegal in your country, but your world level competitors are truly competitive, then you make a solid point. 

If it is possible to train in bite sport, and compete at the highest levels without using tools like a prong and ecollar, then why use them?? 

I am not against the use of either. I use a prong on my dogs, and will probably use an ecollar at some point. I see their use as a tool, an effective one, when used correctly. 

I think we can all agree that training has changed a lot over the years. There is a lot more free shaping, positive reinforcement, and the like than even when I first started in working dogs. So, as a community, we have learned new things and how well they work and successfully integrated them into the norm. 

So if a whole community of people in the sport are able to achieve the same things, using less "force" why poo poo it? 


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## Baillif

Why do you guys always assume it's more force and not less?


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## David Winners

björn said:


> No, don´t see the use I would have of it, have seen them used a few times by others thou and it´s standard equipment in many countries when training.


And this is the problem with the whole situation. Those with the loudest voices are ignorant of the proper use of the tools. You are railing against others, but have no experience on which to base your opinions, yet those with said experience are to be discounted as lesser trainers. 

David Winners


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## gsdsar

Baillif said:


> Why do you guys always assume it's more force and not less?



"You guys?" Why the generality? I put a quote around force. Can you explain how a person using only a flat collar is using more "force" than someone on a prong? Maybe they are really really jerking hard? 

I am not saying a prong is forceful. A quick and clear correction, not brute force. I get it. I use it, always have. Don't negate a discussion because you don't agree with it. 


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> "You guys?" Why the generality? I put a quote around force. Can you explain how a person using only a flat collar is using more "force" than someone on a prong? Maybe they are really really jerking hard?
> 
> I am not saying a prong is forceful. A quick and clear correction, not brute force. I get it. I use it, always have. Don't negate a discussion because you don't agree with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'll take a stab at this. 

When you have a dog on a flat collar who is pulling, and you want to train said dog not to pull with a flat collar. 

Day 1, you put a piece of cheese in your hand and start training the dog using the cheese while his head is craned up with his nose licking your hand and fingers, and he is walking at your side -- no force, except the crook in your back for holding the cheese just so, while the dog is working it out of your hands. Good boy. Good handler. Move on to day two.

Day 2, same as day 1. Continue to do this for a month. 

Remove the cheese, now that you have a permanent crook in your back and shoulder. The pup becomes bored and starts pulling. You use your command, Heel! The dog goes back to your side but the cheese isn't there and he is soon interested in everything else, and pulling away at your shoulder with his neck. 

You decide to turn and go the other way. You start this when he isn't expecting it. You swing around and go in the other direction. The dog doesn't expect this, and gets jerked off its front feet by the neck, and finds its way around to the other side, just a bit of force there, ok, but he is pulling again, whip around. Go the other direction. Pretty soon, after you are dizzy, the dog thinks you are nutso and starts watching to see when you make your next move. Until he forgets, and we have to whip around again.

Finally after weeks, the dog is pretty good at keeping the leash loose so long as there is nothing much more exciting to check out, like another dog, or a squirrel. 

If you do not have the patience of Job during this training, you can lose it and abuse your dog during the process, this sets off a real bit of guilt/shame spiral that goads you into sticking with the positive approaches even if they aren't working for you and your dog. 

Or,

You can give the dog a correction with the prong collar, or let the dog self-correct, and he learns immediately that his boundary when on lead is where it is. It actually is much less force for both you and the dog.


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## Baillif

I'm not negating anything. They are asking a question in a way that is loaded with assumptions that aren't correct. The you guys is meant an impersonal pronoun to all with the same assumptions, and seeing as how the same question keeps coming up no matter how many times it gets answered there is more than one person reading this that has the same assumption.

Most prong usage when used correctly is in the form of gentle guidance pops. Not the Cesar Milan stuff you see on tv. You can't get that with a flat collar. It will take a Cesar Milan style yank to get the same thing with a slip lead or a flat collar. Less force not more is needed with a prong. The stress is scientifically proven to be less significant with the prong and e collars collars than the flat or slip leads. Can you blast a dog with them? Sure.


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## gsdsar

selzer said:


> I'll take a stab at this.
> 
> When you have a dog on a flat collar who is pulling, and you want to train said dog not to pull with a flat collar.
> 
> Day 1, you put a piece of cheese in your hand and start training the dog using the cheese while his head is craned up with his nose licking your hand and fingers, and he is walking at your side -- no force, except the crook in your back for holding the cheese just so, while the dog is working it out of your hands. Good boy. Good handler. Move on to day two.
> 
> Day 2, same as day 1. Continue to do this for a month.
> 
> Remove the cheese, now that you have a permanent crook in your back and shoulder. The pup becomes bored and starts pulling. You use your command, Heel! The dog goes back to your side but the cheese isn't there and he is soon interested in everything else, and pulling away at your shoulder with his neck.
> 
> You decide to turn and go the other way. You start this when he isn't expecting it. You swing around and go in the other direction. The dog doesn't expect this, and gets jerked off its front feet by the neck, and finds its way around to the other side, just a bit of force there, ok, but he is pulling again, whip around. Go the other direction. Pretty soon, after you are dizzy, the dog thinks you are nutso and starts watching to see when you make your next move. Until he forgets, and we have to whip around again.
> 
> Finally after weeks, the dog is pretty good at keeping the leash loose so long as there is nothing much more exciting to check out, like another dog, or a squirrel.
> 
> If you do not have the patience of Job during this training, you can lose it and abuse your dog during the process, this sets off a real bit of guilt/shame spiral that goads you into sticking with the positive approaches even if they aren't working for you and your dog.
> 
> Or,
> 
> You can give the dog a correction with the prong collar, or let the dog self-correct, and he learns immediately that his boundary when on lead is where it is. It actually is much less force for both you and the dog.



Honestly, I hope that's not how you think training goes with a flat collar. If it is, then you are correct, it is more force. But what you are describing is not training. It does not utilize a variable reward system, it does not effectively wean a dog away from treats. It's luring for month and then not understanding why the dog does not get the behavior. I am not a fan of luring after a brief initial phase. 

I am fine with using a prong, third time saying this, they have their use, as do ecollars. I am just trying to understand and appreciate the other side. Didn't realize I was being cryptic. For years people drug their puppies to a sight of a potty area and shoved their nose in. Dogs still got potty trained. But know we have different ways, effective ways. All I am asking is if it possible to be competitive with out the use of physical tools like a prong or ecollar? 

If so, why use them?


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## Baillif

Is possible but at least in ring sport or bite sports in general the aversives are coming from somewhere else if not those tools. Trainers that refuse to use aversives in those sports are not competitive at the higher levels. Most do extremely poorly, especially in mondio ring. The few teams that do do fairly well have very knowledgable trainers with a very specific type of dog.

So if aversives are going to happen why be so picky about where they come from?


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> Honestly, I hope that's not how you think training goes with a flat collar. If it is, then you are correct, it is more force. But what you are describing is not training. It does not utilize a variable reward system, it does not effectively wean a dog away from treats. It's luring for month and then not understanding why the dog does not get the behavior. I am not a fan of luring after a brief initial phase.
> 
> I am fine with using a prong, third time saying this, they have their use, as do ecollars. I am just trying to understand and appreciate the other side. Didn't realize I was being cryptic. For years people drug their puppies to a sight of a potty area and shoved their nose in. Dogs still got potty trained. But know we have different ways, effective ways. All I am asking is if it possible to be competitive with out the use of physical tools like a prong or ecollar?
> 
> If so, why use them?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I skipped a few steps to be brief, but a lot of people training out there, are doing exactly that, with flat collars, and for them, I prefer to see the prong collar on the dog. 

I can't manage the lure the dog to heel next to me. Just doesn't work for me at all. I am not a huge treat trainer. I can teach a position with a treat. I can treat a dog when they are in the proper position. But I can't manage the treat in front of the nose. I know someone with a little dog that uses a back scratcher, and leads the thing like a donkey with a carrot. I suppose whatever works.

I guess the point is, training with a flat collar isn't necessarily all that sweet and gentle either. Bad training is bad training regardless of what people are using in the process. So maybe what we should be banning is bad training.


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## gsdsar

Baillif said:


> Is possible but at least in ring sport or bite sports in general the aversives are coming from somewhere else if not those tools. Trainers that refuse to use aversives in those sports are not competitive at the higher levels. Most do extremely poorly, especially in mondio ring. The few teams that do do fairly well have very knowledgable trainers with a very specific type of dog.
> 
> So if aversives are going to happen why be so picky about where they come from?



Can you explain what other types of aversives are used? Not being difficult, just ignorant of Ring sports. I don't think training can be lacking in correction. Corrections are important. Dogs need to understand the limits. 

Would you consider a "miss" an aversive? Pushing into a dog? A "no". To me these are all aversives. They tell the dog they made a mistake, right? 


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## Baillif

Loose leash walking done right with a prong you can have normal pulling dogs showing the behavior you want in less than 20 minutes. Sometimes inside of 5. You can easily finish that in a few days. **** you can teach contact heeling start to finish in 2 weeks if you know what you're doing and have the timing down. The prong collar is an amazing tool and going without it is silly.


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## Baillif

gsdsar said:


> Can you explain what other types of aversives are used? Not being difficult, just ignorant of Ring sports. I don't think training can be lacking in correction. Corrections are important. Dogs need to understand the limits.
> 
> Would you consider a "miss" an aversive? Pushing into a dog? A "no". To me these are all aversives. They tell the dog they made a mistake, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


For ring sports? Think punching slapping kicking yelling or breaking a stick over a dogs head.


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## björn

David, how hard can it be to understand how a prong works even if you haven´t used one, if it´s used for corrections in protection and not drivebuilding? I´m not saying a correction with a fursaver/chokechain are never done here, but what´s the difference between a random "normal" correction on that and someone who uses a prong, it´s not like you use a prong and barely toutch it if you use it for correction, at least that not what even the worldchampions do that I´ve seen using it in other countries. It´s not so relevant if you use a prong or choke or whatever, the difference for me is when they are used because you must, and when the trainin is done in such a way that you need to correct hard. And that was the case in old school training and to more or less degree still is depending where you look. If "harsh" methods is used I think this tends to show,if there is a "fair" training and the dog and handler are a real team then it doesn´t matter so much if a german use a prong and a swede use something else. Hard dogs needs harsh method seems like a myth people have hard to get by.

GSDsar, yes workingsports are popular, not only bitesports but other national sports like tracking,search etc. The scandinavian countries have been very succesfull in obedience and those people are pretty advanced when it comes to rewardbased methods, but same concept also spins over in ohter work I guess. The helper afterall is a very big reward, just need to learn the dog how to get acess to him IPO was introduced rather late, late 90s, but there have been some very good results. 

But I´m not saying all these IPO people trains without these tools, I´m speaking of people I´m more sure of, and some of them have been to IPO championships several times, also in mondioring there have been several podiumplaces even if there are only a few people training it here. To place at the absolute top in IPO isn´t easy regardless, especially since there are plenty of IPO-people in more large countries like germany. The absolute top in those countries have changed their methods also, to more positive and not only put the dog in drive and use corrections to fix the obedience later who was more common before. If anything it´s the breaking down the exercies in smaller parts and not leting the communication/obedience be lost to early in favour of drive and frustration I think it´s the biggest difference really between swedish training and for example dutch


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## David Winners

björn said:


> David, how hard can it be to understand how a prong works even if you haven´t used one, if it´s used for corrections in protection and not drivebuilding? I´m not saying a correction with a fursaver/chokechain are never done here, but what´s the difference between a random "normal" correction on that and someone who uses a prong, it´s not like you use a prong and barely toutch it if you use it for correction, at least that not what even the worldchampions do that I´ve seen using it in other countries. It´s not so relevant if you use a prong or choke or whatever, the difference for me is when they are used because you must, and when the trainin is done in such a way that you need to correct hard. And that was the case in old school training and to more or less degree still is depending where you look. If "harsh" methods is used I think this tends to show,if there is a "fair" training and the dog and handler are a real team then it doesn´t matter so much if a german use a prong and a swede use something else. Hard dogs needs harsh method seems like a myth people have hard to get by.


Apparently, it is difficult to understand. You still only see the prong collar as a source of harsh corrections. I have explained it several times to no avail. You are under the assumption that training with a prong involves harsh corrections, and that people who utilize this tool are training hard dogs with hard methods. I believe quite the contrary to be true.

Here is a video. How many harsh corrections do you see? How much progress do you see?






Same goes for the e-collar.


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## Baillif

Confucius say "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool...shun him."


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## David Winners

I still don't understand how taking weeks or months to train a behavior is better than accomplishing the same behavior in a few minutes. Unless the training is in fact harsh to the dog, meaning the dog shows signs of being highly stressed, shuts down, redirects to the handler, goes into clear avoidance.

I just don't get it. We're not talking about the downtrodden, unhappy, forced to work dogs of yesterday that were a product of unfair learning conditions. The attitude of a dog shows during training and performance. If the dog is happy, you're doing it right in my book.



Confucius say "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool...shun him."
:thumbup:


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## selzer

I take my time training, mostly because a year from now, I and the dog are going to be a year older no matter how I train. I am not in a hurry. I have seen dogs and owners become so dependent on the tool, that they have trouble without the tool. I don't want to be dependent because I can't use it in the ring. So I train once a week and have a good time doing it. I kind of enjoy the journey.


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## björn

David, I thought we were discussing corrections, legal/illegal tools and how it relates to workingdogs, not as a way to learn the dog walk on a leash, yes I´m very aware of people use it that way as a minor correction, as you can use other methods to do the same. A bit ironic the pitbull already had been on a prong before but still hadn´t learn a thing. It´s not exactly this way they are used normally for sport/workingdogs as you know, especially in protectionwork or in cases when the motivation to do something else is a bit higher for the dog.


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## David Winners

This is exactly how I use a prong when training military dogs. The same dogs came from KNPV training which is much different. Many ways to use the same tool.

How is it ironic that the dog had a clueless owner? Do you think the dog would have responded better in some way to the same training conducted with a flat collar or fursaver?

You are making a lot of assumptions in your statements. I can say that the training I do doesn't much resemble the picture you seem to have in your head. 

You have failed to answer the questions I have posted. You seem set in your ways of not seeing the usefulness of these tools and what advantages they bring to training. This I can not change. I guess we will just have to disagree. I see no point in arguing. I agree that there are many ways to train a dog, and positive reinforcement is a very effective tool. So are the 3 other quadrants of operant conditioning. The prong is an effective tool in my hands and I chose to train with it because of the results I get in training. Happy, obedient dogs with a clear understanding of what is expected of them.

As a side note: I have 2 dogs in my home. 1 has never had a prong or e-collar on his neck. The other wears one of the 2, and sometimes both, almost continually. It is not that I am unaware of positive only training methods. I certainly will utilize them on the right dog. I am also aware of their limitations, at least in my capability, and adjust my training accordingly as needed.


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## glowingtoadfly

David Winners said:


> I still don't understand how taking weeks or months to train a behavior is better than accomplishing the same behavior in a few minutes. Unless the training is in fact harsh to the dog, meaning the dog shows signs of being highly stressed, shuts down, redirects to the handler, goes into clear avoidance.
> 
> I just don't get it. We're not talking about the downtrodden, unhappy, forced to work dogs of yesterday that were a product of unfair learning conditions. The attitude of a dog shows during training and performance. If the dog is happy, you're doing it right in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> Confucius say "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool...shun him."
> :thumbup:


Here is another response about the time it takes to train loose leash walking without a prong. Yes, it is a more process based way of training than it is based in quick results. Does that mean it shouldn't be taken seriously as a training method? At the humane society, I was trained to teach loose leash walking with a weiss walkie, which is a leash that is slipped around the body through a ring. When the dog pulls, the leash tightens, and the dogwalker is supposed to stop and wait each time for the dog to stop pulling. Eventually the dogs learn that if they pull, the walk stops. Prongs are not allowed at the humane society because they are an aversive.


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## selzer

glowingtoadfly said:


> Here is another response about the time it takes to train loose leash walking without a prong. Yes, it is a more process based way of training than it is based in quick results. Does that mean it shouldn't be taken seriously as a training method? At the humane society, I was trained to teach loose leash walking with a weiss walkie, which is a leash that is slipped around the body through a ring. When the dog pulls, the leash tightens, and the dogwalker is supposed to stop and wait each time for the dog to stop pulling. Eventually the dogs learn that if they pull, the walk stops. Prongs are not allowed at the humane society because they are an aversive.


See this is part of the argument. Having the walk stop is also an aversive, else no learning would take place in your scenario. I think that the pulling can actually cause more damage to the dog, than being corrected and going forward. So either way you have an aversive, and in one scenario the dog is more likely to be injured. But it is that scenario that is embraced by a "humane" society.


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## mego

glowingtoadfly said:


> Here is another response about the time it takes to train loose leash walking without a prong. Yes, it is a more process based way of training than it is based in quick results. Does that mean it shouldn't be taken seriously as a training method? At the humane society, I was trained to teach loose leash walking with a weiss walkie, which is a leash that is slipped around the body through a ring. When the dog pulls, the leash tightens, and the dogwalker is supposed to stop and wait each time for the dog to stop pulling. Eventually the dogs learn that if they pull, the walk stops. Prongs are not allowed at the humane society because they are an aversive.


he didn't say it's not taken seriously, he said he didn't understand how some people think it's better. The idea is this: both scenarios you have an unstressed dog. Both scenarios teach dog to walk on a loose leash. One scenario takes months, one does not. 

if you have a dog that's not abused for some reason, it's most likely not going to shut down on a prong, I mean come on, you're on a walk, if the dog is cringing at a prong and refusing to walk you have a lot more going on..but 2 stable dogs, one not terribly shaken, no it doesn't make sense to go the long route from an end result stand point. 

I volunteered at the humane society too. and 2 dogs out of 50 there could walk on a loose leash and they were both about 10 years old. So, the other problem with flats only is not only does it take months to teach, but it can be erased super quickly with the slightest inconsistency and bam your months of progress starts over


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## selzer

mego said:


> he didn't say it's not taken seriously, he said he didn't understand how some people think it's better. The idea is this: both scenarios you have an unstressed dog. Both scenarios teach dog to walk on a loose leash. One scenario takes months, one does not.
> 
> if you have a dog that's not abused for some reason, it's most likely not going to shut down on a prong, I mean come on, you're on a walk, if the dog is cringing at a prong and refusing to walk you have a lot more going on..but 2 stable dogs, one not terribly shaken, no it doesn't make sense to go the long route from an end result stand point.
> 
> I volunteered at the humane society too. and 2 dogs out of 50 there could walk on a loose leash and they were both about 10 years old. *So, the other problem with flats only is not only does it take months to teach, but it can be erased super quickly with the slightest inconsistency and bam your months of progress starts over*


Actually, I disagree with this. When I teach a dog to walk on a flat collar, it isn't lost even with months or years of no active training. And they will still be trained to walk on a loose leash. I think your dogs that have lost it, actually never had it in the first place. And part of it is building a bond and having the relationship, not just walking on a loose lead. You have a dog that is engaged with you, and even if you haven't trained that dog in a year or more, the dog doesn't loose the training. They can be quite eager to pick up where they left off. 

Maybe that is different when you train them quick. Slack off, and you have to go back to step A.


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## mego

selzer said:


> Actually, I disagree with this. When I teach a dog to walk on a flat collar, it isn't lost even with months or years of no active training. And they will still be trained to walk on a loose leash. I think your dogs that have lost it, actually never had it in the first place. And part of it is building a bond and having the relationship, not just walking on a loose lead. You have a dog that is engaged with you, and even if you haven't trained that dog in a year or more, the dog doesn't loose the training. They can be quite eager to pick up where they left off.
> 
> Maybe that is different when you train them quick. Slack off, and you have to go back to step A.


not had it in the first place, that's what I meant

If you are in the middle of the months of teaching that and then suddenly someone lets them pull a few times, I found it took so much longer to get my progress back. That happened a lot at our humane society with some walkers that just let dogs pull even though so many others put work into making them loose leash walk. Thanks for pointing that out so I could clarify!


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## selzer

_Loose_ the training?!?

Uhg! I think I must have loose leash walking on the brain. The dog doesn't lose the training, see, I can actually spell. Sometimes my keyboard has a mind of its own though. It must be possessed.


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## selzer

I can understand shelters wanting to avoid some training methods. Dogs come after being abandoned or stray, and possibly having seriously negative experiences with people, and while I think most would be perfectly fine with a prong collar, I can see trying to get them to trust people without such tools.


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## Nigel

björn said:


> David, I thought we were discussing corrections, legal/illegal tools and how it relates to workingdogs, not as a way to learn the dog walk on a leash, yes I´m very aware of people use it that way as a minor correction, as you can use other methods to do the same. A bit ironic the pitbull already had been on a prong before but still hadn´t learn a thing. It´s not exactly this way they are used normally for sport/workingdogs as you know, especially in protectionwork or in cases when the motivation to do something else is a bit higher for the dog.


Not ironic, someone used a prong incorrectly and did not teach the dog anything with it. The dog learned he could still pull and get its way without any real discomfort. If the prong collar is considered painful and cruel why would the thin coated terrier even try to pull against it? I think too many people focus on the tools appearance and assume it must be bad, rather than see it as an effective and safe tool when used correctly.


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## David Winners

LOL... what about a leash tightening around the ribs of a dog isn't aversive. Trading one type of negative reward for another doesn't change the reason the dog is learning. Different tool, same principle.

Another thing about flat collars is opposition reflex. If the dog is restrained using a flat it's natural tendency is to pull against it. The prong provides communication before opposition reflex, making it more efficient IMO.


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## björn

David, the irony was that despite the tool the owner wasn´t helped by it becasue the knowledge lacked. How does these tools help you in militarywork that another collar or method can´t you mean? I´m not talking about positive methods only either, I said many doesn´t use prongs and e-collars but have to use legal collars and tools and train to a high level anyway, some are more advanced in using positive methods some mix a bit more and do what they are comfortable with and get good results. The bans or not only affects those who can´t do without them if we talk workingdogs, so in that sense I see nothing wrong in not allowing them at workingclubs at least if speaking from my perspective.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Meh whats the point? The people questioning the technique have no experience with the tools or with much in the way of training period. Its like arguing algebra with a kindergardner. 
We all know who the top echelon sport competitors are and how they train regardless of what might be legal or illegal in their little country. Same with police and military that train to high levels.
In the end this thread is a microcosm of how these bans occur. People with little knowledge scream about better ways and rally stupid politicians to their cause.

They cannot train but they tell nice stories and show a few exceptions to the general rule like their bordercollie doing tricks, "tada look at what I did, NO corrections!"

In the end its pointless. Ignorance is bliss.


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## David Winners

Here is a hypothetical situation:

A trainer works with the local shelter training hard to manage dogs so that they can be more easily placed. Dogs with manners find homes sooner.

That trainer can either train 1 dog for a month to meet certain goals in training, or train 6 dogs in the same amount of time, meeting the same goals, same happy attitude in the dogs. Which method is better in this situation?



A 100 pound Cane Corso puppy is adopted from the shelter. It has no manners, mouths everything and everyone walking by, bolts toward any open door, person on a walk, dog within eyesight or moving car. The dog jumps up forcefully on anyone who enters a room. The dog has no impulse control and is used to doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

I am not saying that positive only training couldn't be effective in this situation, but seriously, why put everyone including the dog in danger while you clicked your way to maybe proofed obedience. 


The bottom line, in my opinion, is that prong collars have a place in training. The right tool for the right dog and situation makes training more productive which is less stressful for the dog than confusion. There are things that are much easier to train with a prong than with any other type of training collar. This alone makes it's use a viable option in my book. The banning of such equipment will have a negative effect on how some dogs can be trained. They can still be trained, but it will not be as effective.

All JMO. YMMV


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## glowingtoadfly

David Winners said:


> LOL... what about a leash tightening around the ribs of a dog isn't aversive. Trading one type of negative reward for another doesn't change the reason the dog is learning. Different tool, same principle.
> 
> Another thing about flat collars is opposition reflex. If the dog is restrained using a flat it's natural tendency is to pull against it. The prong provides communication before opposition reflex, making it more efficient IMO.


I think their point is that it diffuses the pressure along the ribcage instead of against the neck. For the record, I am against bans, just arguing the other side, which is underrepresented, and giving an example of a situation where a prong may be unwarranted.


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## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Meh whats the point? The people questioning the technique have no experience with the tools or with much in the way of training period. Its like arguing algebra with a kindergardner.
> We all know who the top echelon sport competitors are and how they train regardless of what might be legal or illegal in their little country. Same with police and military that train to high levels.
> In the end this thread is a microcosm of how these bans occur. People with little knowledge scream about better ways and rally stupid politicians to their cause.
> 
> They cannot train but they tell nice stories and show a few exceptions to the general rule like their bordercollie doing tricks, "tada look at what I did, NO corrections!"
> 
> In the end its pointless. Ignorance is bliss.


:thumbup:


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## selzer

björn said:


> David, the irony was that despite the tool the owner wasn´t helped by it becasue the knowledge lacked. How does these tools help you in militarywork that another collar or method can´t you mean? I´m not talking about positive methods only either, I said many doesn´t use prongs and e-collars but have to use legal collars and tools and train to a high level anyway, some are more advanced in using positive methods some mix a bit more and do what they are comfortable with and get good results. The bans or not only affects those who can´t do without them if we talk workingdogs, so in that sense I see nothing wrong in not allowing them at workingclubs at least if speaking from my perspective.


People have used choke collars, choke chains, slip collars -- whatever they are called forever in training. I think that they are still legal in most countries. Some trainers have been brutal with these collars. Choking the dog out was a typical technique for a strong-willed dog. And some trainers have hung dogs up by these collars kicking them repeatedly. 

If trainers can manage to train dogs without being brutal with them, by using tools that are more effective, and less likely to cause an impatient/brutal person to lose patience and vent their anger on the dog, isn't this better than going backwards and limiting our training techniques to those that people have a history of abusing in the past.

The prong collar like any tool can be abused, but since some of that abuse comes from frustration in the training process, isn't it more likely that less dogs will be abused if these training tools are available?


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## jafo220

I have tried to not use a prong or choke or e collar in training my GSD. I started a thread in the training section about the problems with my dog and prongs were touched on in there a little. 

I decided to give a prong a try as my dog was getting completely out of my control and was becoming dangerous. The last straw was pulling me over on a walk. I can't have that for the safety of the dog and myself and the people and dogs who may be around. He is highly reactive to other dogs and has been progressively getting worse with cars. 

So here we are today. I went and purchased a prong and new lead. They look really bad and yes I can see how they could cause injury........if used improperly. I have no desire to inflict pain on my dog. But I had to do something to get him reigned in. The prong did the trick so far. We've only taken one walk with it so it's still a work in progress. But used properly, I think it gives them an amount of discomfort more than inflict pain. 

I think it would be a big disservice to outlaw prongs as in my mind it may persuade someone with less patience and less determination, to just take a dog like mine to the shelter if they don't have access to the right tools to do the job. I'm a firm believer now that certain dogs require alternate measures of correction in training to help them through certain mental obstacles.


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## björn

selzer said:


> If trainers can manage to train dogs without being brutal with them, by using tools that are more effective, and less likely to cause an impatient/brutal person to lose patience and vent their anger on the dog, isn't this better than going backwards and limiting our training techniques to those that people have a history of abusing in the past.
> 
> The prong collar like any tool can be abused, but since some of that abuse comes from frustration in the training process, isn't it more likely that less dogs will be abused if these training tools are available?


That´s like saying all people abuse e-collars or prongs the worst way possible, if people who use other collars hang their dogs instead and therefore just as bad. I don´t think a brutal person should have any tool, it´s not going backwards to be able to train without the "stoneage" methods used by some, and whatever collar you use it´s only a tiny part. A good trainer is of course more able to handle all types of methods.

More effective methods could be to use no corrections at all in an exercises where you previously corrected hard because you didn´t know other solutions. Using a prong to be able to walk isn´t "abusive" but it´s just all these problems are not due to collars to start with, and there´s a bunch of way to solve problems who don´t involve these tools either, getting help from someone who knows what he does is more important.

The question is why these tools should be used then for sport/workingdogs, would people be better trainers if they started to use e-collars and prongs again in sweden for example? And by better trainer I don´t mean using an e-collar to quicker and easier get 1-2 point more in IPO. It´s funny people says they know how top trainers do things in sports and military yet I doubt they have been around in various countries in EU and looked at how people train, so all use prongs and e-collars then, or hanging and kicking, or they lie or have little knowledge about dogtraining I don´t care so much that people use them in countries where they are legal, I´m more intessted to hear why they are a better alternative for a good trainer.


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## Blanketback

There's no reason to use the 'sport/working' distinction because this tool is just as important to 'pet' dogs as well. I think it's funny that people are up in arms over the prong, but are fine with the choke collar. Didn't this collar used to be called a "check chain"? It makes perfect sense to call it a "choke" collar, because that's what it will do if you're not careful, lol. The prong can't ever be used in such a way, due to its design. In fact, you can use it in 2 ways, one being where it won't tighten at all. 

As far as the prong collar being used because trainers want a faster solution, think about it: the more ingrained a behavior is (by repetition) the harder it is to break said habit. Take it to its simplest level - you don't housetrain a baby puppy by letting it wander indoors and eliminate. You're proactive and take it outside. How much harder would it be if you didn't do this? And I'm not even talking about corrections in this case, just your basic learning curve for the puppies to figure it out themselves. That's the advantage with the prong, it's an easily understood signal.


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## Baillif

selzer said:


> Actually, I disagree with this. When I teach a dog to walk on a flat collar, it isn't lost even with months or years of no active training. And they will still be trained to walk on a loose leash. I think your dogs that have lost it, actually never had it in the first place. And part of it is building a bond and having the relationship, not just walking on a loose lead. You have a dog that is engaged with you, and even if you haven't trained that dog in a year or more, the dog doesn't loose the training. They can be quite eager to pick up where they left off.
> 
> Maybe that is different when you train them quick. Slack off, and you have to go back to step A.


Disagree with it if you want but dogs drop behaviors that arent enforced and are prone to test them more if enforced inconsistently. Their willingness to test it is inversely proportional to the aversiveness of the potential consequence should their gamble not pay off. 

Ive seen dogs that were loose leash trained here come back months later pulling their owners through doors because it was never enforced never practiced so the dog dropped the behavior and went back to doing whatever it wanted. The second i grab that leash and call the dog on his BS they suddenly recover the ability to loose leash walk.

Dogs do stuff that works for them and drop behaviors that dont have value. Behavior motivated through carrot and stick will always be stronger and more consistent than behavior motivated by carrot alone or stick alone. Thats just a fact.


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## Gwenhwyfair

bjorn, the major problem we have in the U.S. is abandoned and unwanted pets and 'puppy mill' breeders.

We don't ban prongs (at least yet) because of the simple fact they are not a big problem.

Now if your country had a problem where people were being brutal with those tools then yeah, I'll concede you had a culture issue there we don't have.

If anything a LOT of people kill their dogs with kindness here in the U.S., too much food, not enough exercise, no training because it's 'being mean' to the dog.

Then the other end where idiots are really and truly abusive, like throwing puppies off balconys and taping their mouths shut. We also have laws to address this and both owners of the cases I just mentioned are going to jail for animal cruelty.

Prongs and e collars aren't even a tiny little blip on the radar of REAL problems.

Further, any law, in ANY country that is unjustified is an unjust law, period.

So you're faced with a conundrum, either your country had a real problem with people being abusive with e collars and prongs so that law WAS necessary in YOUR country OR you have a high tolerance for unjust laws.

See, logic, pure and simple.





björn said:


> Gwen, some countries have stricter animal laws how dogs shold be treated and keept, in other countries this is far less restrictions, just take bull fighting as an example in spain, this is not OK in many other countries. When I say "brutal" I don´t mean a certian tools are more "evil" than others, I mean the tolerance for how and why they are used is different, just because some "worldchampion" uses these for their sport doesn´t mean they use it good and for any other reasons than gaining points on competitons. Som use all tools and methods in a way that would be considered animal abuse in different levels, this is due to view on animals(tool or friend) and also how far training has evolved in certain places, if you don´t believe me you should visit some clubs in EU, and US also I guess. I don´t think you need "proof" using heavy corrections due to incompetence with whatever tool is not brutal and questionable, this is what I mean.
> 
> I also have said an e-collar for example is some cases could be the least harmfull way to solve a problem. But the thing is all behaviourproblems(if the dog isn´t insane) is due to careless training and lack of understanding of dogs, there is what the problem is, you don´t need these tools if you do correct from the start. And I don´t see where a prong and e-collar would be so superior to other collars and corrections you can use even if you do screw up, it´s not the corrections that fix the problem with lack of communication someone has with their dog. Corrections even took them there in the first place.
> 
> A ban may not stop people using these tools if they really like to do it, just like laws on other things doesn´t stop people from doing it anyway. It will however make it harder for those who shouldn´t own one or can´t train a dog without needing it. The policy to not use these tools on workingdog clubs was taken before they were forbidden by law here also, laws didn´t forbidden them on clubs, the reason was to get away from the worst trainers I suppose, who needed more "juice" or just was brutal against dogs in general in training.
> 
> It´s not necessarily wrong to use a prong correction and is no big deal for me if the person is good, but I don´t see where e-collars and prongs are better than other tools and clever training? If you need more "force" than a chokechain and your hands, isn´t then already something gone wrong in training? E-collars for hunting may be somtehing different, to ban them without having certain experts to turn to may be wrong. But even when used by people and certain experts before, the results wasn´t always good, you need to reapeat it again and it wasn´t a quick fix for every dog.
> 
> I guess the main difference for me is I think tools are used to freely and as an easy fix in US it seems, when the real problems isn´t the lack of tools or not. In sweden we have more laws designed to protect the wellfare of dogs,but is also better dog knowledge I think, small country with many people involved in workingdogs. Maybe a ban overthere just isn´t working because of this, but the situation here is not the same in general, so I´m not saying you SHOULD ban these tools over there, but its´not like US is the best country in the world for dogs to live with regardless how much freedome you have


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## Blanketback

I'd be all for banning the junk prongs - the ones made out of crap metals, with the tips sheared off rather than the nice caressing blunted tips. I'd never use one of those pieces of garbage, yet they're everywhere.


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## Baillif

Meh. Sharpen the tips with a dremmel and youd have to use even less force when finishing a dog.


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## Blanketback

I've heard that works, lol. But seriously, there's a million different aversives out there, why single out the prong? Oh right, AR feel-good. Silly me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I think Bjorn gets it, he just keeps reframing the argument as a deflection due to lack of real substantive evidence to support his point of view (see poisoning the well ,in this case, make the tool sound worse then it really is). 

An attempt to appeal to emotions to win the argument or make a point, problem is it's a fallacy.....




David Winners said:


> Apparently, it is difficult to understand. You still only see the prong collar as a source of harsh corrections. I have explained it several times to no avail. You are under the assumption that training with a prong involves harsh corrections, and that people who utilize this tool are training hard dogs with hard methods. I believe quite the contrary to be true.
> 
> <snipped>


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## Baillif

Blanketback said:


> I've heard that works, lol. But seriously, there's a million different aversives out there, why single out the prong? Oh right, AR feel-good. Silly me.


It does. I haven't done it myself but there are trainers out there far far better than I that do. Gotta oil the tips after or they rust though. Would be a pita imo.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, that's why I don't think I could ever be a trainer.

Every trainer I know, sees this problem and it's frustrating because the trainer knows the dog can do it....the problem is the owner.

Even worse when people blame the trainer for their lack of work ethic in learning and maintaining the training. 



Baillif said:


> Disagree with it if you want but dogs drop behaviors that arent enforced and are prone to test them more if enforced inconsistently. Their willingness to test it is inversely proportional to the aversiveness of the potential consequence should their gamble not pay off.
> 
> Ive seen dogs that were loose leash trained here come back months later pulling their owners through doors because it was never enforced never practiced so the dog dropped the behavior and went back to doing whatever it wanted. The second i grab that leash and call the dog on his BS they suddenly recover the ability to loose leash walk.
> 
> Dogs do stuff that works for them and drop behaviors that dont have value. Behavior motivated through carrot and stick will always be stronger and more consistent than behavior motivated by carrot alone or stick alone. Thats just a fact.


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## Blanketback

LOL Gwen, I don't even have to leave my house to witness the utter lack of dedication on some peoples' part when it comes to dog training, and the effort required to maintain it! UGH, the stories...lol...

My favorite aversive is the hand/voice combo. I don't need to oil my tips, lol.


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## Baillif

Yup that kind of thing happens. They get told up front what will be required and that it takes a change in how they view the dog and how they interact with the dog. That we cant just put a chip in there to make them obey. Some nod hand over the money and a few weeks later day dream through the handler sessions granted usually amazed at what their dog can do, but when they take the dog home all that structure and discipline don't happen. The dog reverts.

In a way its sad because 1 they're wasting their investment. 2 worst case scenario we get blamed for it with the whole board and train doesn't work thing. But the saddest thing is they really miss out on the chance to use that obedience and play we teach them to strengthen their bond with the dog and fulfill the dogs needs.


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## Blanketback

And that's why I truly believe that some people just don't want trained dogs. It's beyond saying that they're lazy, because maintaining the training isn't any harder than putting on socks - it's a routine and nothing more.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, No truer words, for sure.

I've shared stories of my Smitty boy. When I learned and practiced what my trainer taught me it really opened the door for us.

I don't know how to describe it sometimes, but all my PO methods just didn't work for him (though had worked for the sweet mutt puppies I'd had before, strictly for pet manners). We were butting heads basically, all the time and it was not a good relationship.

Now he, who is normally aloof, seeks affection from me.

Training and following through really did open the door to create a bond we hadn't had before.....now we really are buddies. :wub:




Baillif said:


> Yup that kind of thing happens. They get told up front what will be required and that it takes a change in how they view the dog and how they interact with the dog. That we cant just put a chip in there to make them obey. Some nod hand over the money and a few weeks later day dream through the handler sessions granted usually amazed at what their dog can do, but when they take the dog home all that structure and discipline don't happen. The dog reverts.
> 
> In a way its sad because 1 they're wasting their investment. 2 worst case scenario we get blamed for it with the whole board and train doesn't work thing. But the saddest thing is they really miss out on the chance to use that obedience and play we teach them to strengthen their bond with the dog and fulfill the dogs needs.


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! Same here, same here....I just gave up, use German commands for training. Hubs follows basic safety rules and the dogs love him so it all works out in the end.

As I said in another thread, I just watch and smile as the dogs galavant around and he's saying "down, down, down", then he says it more slowly as if that will make a difference "dooo....www..nnnn".

I say 'platz' and they do it. hehehehe..... He doesn't really care that they don't mind him and I don't care because he's not interfering with my training. We worked on recall with him and the dogs and other then that we have a routine they follow so he can go with the flow. 






Blanketback said:


> LOL Gwen, I don't even have to leave my house to witness the utter lack of dedication on some peoples' part when it comes to dog training, and the effort required to maintain it! UGH, the stories...lol...
> 
> My favorite aversive is the hand/voice combo. I don't need to oil my tips, lol.


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## Blanketback

It got so bad at my house that DH was covering for my dog! Yes, it's true! My dog is no longer allowed outside in the unfenced front yard without me. DH thinks all is well because my dog recalled, after leaving the yard. Hold me back! LOL! How to explain that the recall is _already_ solid, but has _nothing_ to do with my concern?! Like talking to a wall...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh Noes! Not good. 

LOL!

Yeah, safety rule number one at our house, hubs only lets dogs out into fenced back yard. He does take his little Aussie for on leash walks in the neighborhood tho. He loves showing her off at Tractor Supply to, it's so darn cute. Big 6'3" guy and his little cute as a button Aussie.

They have fun those two.  



Blanketback said:


> It got so bad at my house that DH was covering for my dog! Yes, it's true! My dog is no longer allowed outside in the unfenced front yard without me. DH thinks all is well because my dog recalled, after leaving the yard. Hold me back! LOL! How to explain that the recall is _already_ solid, but has _nothing_ to do with my concern?! Like talking to a wall...


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## björn

Blanketback said:


> There's no reason to use the 'sport/working' distinction because this tool is just as important to 'pet' dogs as well. I think it's funny that people are up in arms over the prong, but are fine with the choke collar. Didn't this collar used to be called a "check chain"? It makes perfect sense to call it a "choke" collar, because that's what it will do if you're not careful, lol. The prong can't ever be used in such a way, due to its design. In fact, you can use it in 2 ways, one being where it won't tighten at all.


Fursaver, chainlink,chokecollar, I guess it´s called in english. Many use it as a regularcollar on the dead ring or as a correctiontool just as the prong, choking the dog isn´t the goal. Yes, it could be missused but so can everything. Prong and e-collars was singled out because for most people there are no real use for them, in the case with the e-collar it´s also takes more skill to use. The purpose with all correctioncollars is to cause some discomfort, so I guess the point was the training shouldn´t go so wrong that someone needs an e-collar or prong to train a dog, focusing more to learn the dog the correct behaviour instead on correcting wrongs, more modern effective training.

The brutality with these tools was probably way less than it was in other countries like germany and holland where e-collars and harder trainingmethods was and still is more common. It is a different dogculture and dogs are keept and trained differently, scandnavian countries is more about adpating the training to the dog, and the dogs should have some saying in what methods are acceptable to use on them So prongs and e-collars as standardtools will not be tolerated, the general public and other people who trains tracking,SAR etc on workingdogclubs will never accept or understand why for example protectiondogs should have these tools when training is more advanced today then 30 years ago, and most think this is good because there are plenty of people who have success without them here.

I understand the situation in US thou and it´s not strange many use them, but allowing e-collars and prongs because of neglected petdogs or to win in sports would never work here as an argument for using these tools again. I guess it´s the situation in general that is quite different.


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## Blanketback

I can't say anything about the ecollar, since I've yet to use one. I don't have anything against them in general, when I read how other responsible trainers refer to using them. My only issue with them would be that I'd like my dog to know that a correction was coming from me, so IDK how that would translate via the sensation the dog was receiving? I'd have to look into that.

What I don't want to consider doing - I'll use my neighbor's lab as an example: the dog has no recall because not only was she trained to tune them out ("Come, come, come, ugh bad DOG! You better listen now comecomecome") she was also having the time of her life racing over to my yard, getting my dogs' attention, and sometimes being rewarded with a playdate, lol! Talk about how *not* to teach a recall. So owner's father said to me (when he was taking care of her) that he wanted an ecollar to zap her good with, to teach her. If this is the entire premise for why they're banned, then why not ban scissors, knives, guns, bubble gum, and anything else that can cause harm with misuse? I don't get it. What's wrong with education?


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## mego

Blanketback said:


> I can't say anything about the ecollar, since I've yet to use one. I don't have anything against them in general, when I read how other responsible trainers refer to using them. My only issue with them would be that I'd like my dog to know that a correction was coming from me, so IDK how that would translate via the sensation the dog was receiving? I'd have to look into that.


Negative markers. Just like when you pop a prong and mark with a no, you press the e collar button when you say the no. The dog figures out that when you say no, some sort of correction comes


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## Baillif

Yup


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## Blanketback

If that's the case, then why do dogs get collar wise? Is that just crappy training? Like I said, I have no clue on how it's done, lol.


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> Loose leash walking done right with a prong you can have normal pulling dogs showing the behavior you want in less than 20 minutes. Sometimes inside of 5. You can easily finish that in a few days. **** you can teach contact heeling start to finish in 2 weeks if you know what you're doing and have the timing down. The prong collar is an amazing tool and going without it is silly.


My turn!


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## Baillif

If the collar is the only way you enforce rules and you do stims soon after you put the collar on then the dog learns the collar is where your power comes from and will comply more often when it is on and not so much when the collar isn't on.

If you provide a consequence regardless of whether the collar is on or not then you dont have to worry about the passage of time between putting a collar on and giving a consequence with it. A consequence isn't linked to whether or not the collar is on so the dog doesn't make the connection. 

So in short collar wisdom is the result of crap training.


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## Blanketback

I'd really need to learn about it in depth before using it. I wouldn't want to have my dog exposed to any more crap training than he has, lol! But for example, take training the no-fence boundary: I've already used +R, -P and +P to teach this. The +P only happened twice, and was very effective. I know the efence or the ecollar could also be used in this situation, but the fence is a continual, always on. I don't think 2 corrections with the ecollar would be sufficient either? Or am I way off?


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## Baillif

Whats your goal with the no fence boundary?


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## glowingtoadfly

björn said:


> Fursaver, chainlink,chokecollar, I guess it´s called in english. Many use it as a regularcollar on the dead ring or as a correctiontool just as the prong, choking the dog isn´t the goal. Yes, it could be missused but so can everything. Prong and e-collars was singled out because for most people there are no real use for them, in the case with the e-collar it´s also takes more skill to use. The purpose with all correctioncollars is to cause some discomfort, so I guess the point was the training shouldn´t go so wrong that someone needs an e-collar or prong to train a dog, focusing more to learn the dog the correct behaviour instead on correcting wrongs, more modern effective training.
> 
> The brutality with these tools was probably way less than it was in other countries like germany and holland where e-collars and harder trainingmethods was and still is more common. It is a different dogculture and dogs are keept and trained differently, scandnavian countries is more about adpating the training to the dog, and the dogs should have some saying in what methods are acceptable to use on them So prongs and e-collars as standardtools will not be tolerated, the general public and other people who trains tracking,SAR etc on workingdogclubs will never accept or understand why for example protectiondogs should have these tools when training is more advanced today then 30 years ago, and most think this is good because there are plenty of people who have success without them here.
> 
> I understand the situation in US thou and it´s not strange many use them, but allowing e-collars and prongs because of neglected petdogs or to win in sports would never work here as an argument for using these tools again. I guess it´s the situation in general that is quite different.


I think that different ways of thinking and doing things should be accepted more, and thought about, rather than dismissed outright.


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## Blanketback

Not needing to restrain my dog, regardless of what's going on off the property, which was going really well until: the snow raised the elevation, the rabbits invaded the yard, and DH decided that my dog didn't need constant supervision to stay contained. I've been able to use a stern vocal warning when I saw the signs that indicated he was about to leave, and I called him off a rabbit a few nights ago, so it's a work in progress. This place is more challenging than any other place I've ever lived, because our lot is raised, giving us a view of our neighbors' yards, and I don't like this because it encourages my dog to scope out the scenery, which includes loose dogs, the rabbits, kids - all the fun stuff in life. I want a reliable "stay here" without actually having to issue the command, which I'm expecting to get eventually, since I'm consistent and DH lost his privileges with my dog, lol.


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## Chip18

mego said:


> Negative markers. Just like when you pop a prong and mark with a no, you press the e collar button when you say the no. The dog figures out that when you say no, some sort of correction comes


Thanks! Now I don't need to ask!


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## Blanketback

I'm just thinking out loud here, so tear this apart: do I really want my dog to think that "no" also means getting a correction? I want "no" to mean 'stop what you're doing' but I want the correction to come when the 'stop' hasn't been obeyed. Am I making sense? Am I wrong?


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> Not needing to restrain my dog, regardless of what's going on off the property, which was going really well until: the snow raised the elevation, the rabbits invaded the yard, and DH decided that my dog didn't need constant supervision to stay contained. I've been able to use a stern vocal warning when I saw the signs that indicated he was about to leave, and I called him off a rabbit a few nights ago, so it's a work in progress. This place is more challenging than any other place I've ever lived, because our lot is raised, giving us a view of our neighbors' yards, and I don't like this because it encourages my dog to scope out the scenery, which includes loose dogs, the rabbits, kids - all the fun stuff in life. I want a reliable "stay here" without actually having to issue the command, which I'm expecting to get eventually, since I'm consistent and DH lost his privileges with my dog, lol.


I use "on the lawn" to train my guys. They didn't dog, cats or people so pretty simple for me, no collars needed but wildlife and especially rabbits!

Thats a tough nut, I would imagine it's gonna be hard to get a random rabbit to pop up for a collar correction???


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> I'm just thinking out loud here, so tear this apart: do I really want my dog to think that "no" also means getting a correction? I want "no" to mean 'stop what you're doing' but I want the correction to come when the 'stop' hasn't been obeyed. Am I making sense? Am I wrong?


That makes sense to me. No can easily become a poisoned cue if it is connected to a correction. If I were a correction trainer, your way would be how I would do it.


----------



## Blanketback

You don't know what you're missing! Corrections are fun - you get to satisfy all your frustrations by beating on your dog, you get to hear them yelp for mercy....NO, I'M JK! Kidding, joking, making fun of the fact that corrections are often looked at as some savage attack on the dog. A correction can be anything: it's interrupting the undesired behavior. I guess "no" is also a correction - probably why it's now such a dirty word, lol.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> You don't know what you're missing! Corrections are fun - you get to satisfy all your frustrations by beating on your dog, you get to hear them yelp for mercy....NO, I'M JK! Kidding, joking, making fun of the fact that corrections are often looked at as some savage attack on the dog. A correction can be anything: it's interrupting the undesired behavior. I guess "no" is also a correction - probably why it's now such a dirty word, lol.


I use no. I must be one of those yank and crank correction trainers that got the prong ban started in Bjorn's country! You know, the kind of trainer that sensible correction trainers dislike because they give everyone who trains that way a bad name?


----------



## Blanketback

Yes, it's all becoming clear to me now. I'm guessing that in Bjorn's country they also have a trade embargo against any country manufacturing the decent prongs, so that the crappy pointed ones are all they have available. Hey, no need to file them down though. Oh, also add any reactions that the dogs might have to nickel too, that will add to the problem. Yay, I got it! Finally!


----------



## Baillif

If theyre already pointed no need for a dremmel or oiling the tips!


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Although, I realize that I am assuming that it was yank and crank trainers who started the ban. Bjorn, from what I have read, says that it is simply a different culture surrounding dogs, is that so?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

wait a minute.....Dremel is a German owned company.

Me thinks a conspiracy is afoot and probably has something to with Baillif's clandestine dolphin training as well.......aranoid:




Baillif said:


> If theyre already pointed no need for a dremmel or oiling the tips!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hi GTF, I posted a link to an article from a very successful and experienced European trainer discussing the origins of the bans in Europe. I don't remember which page it was but can relink if you like. 




glowingtoadfly said:


> Although, I realize that I am assuming that it was yank and crank trainers who started the ban. Bjorn, from what I have read, says that it is simply a different culture surrounding dogs, is that so?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Ah, so the ban was justified because of what was going on in other countries. So you place the law on your citizens who by and large weren't being abusive. Fascinating. 

(yeah, I was going to...but...couldn't let that one slip on by....)



björn said:


> Fursaver, chainlink,chokecollar, I guess it´s called in english. Many use it as a regularcollar on the dead ring or as a correctiontool just as the prong, choking the dog isn´t the goal. Yes, it could be missused but so can everything. Prong and e-collars was singled out because for most people there are no real use for them, in the case with the e-collar it´s also takes more skill to use. The purpose with all correctioncollars is to cause some discomfort, so I guess the point was the training shouldn´t go so wrong that someone needs an e-collar or prong to train a dog, focusing more to learn the dog the correct behaviour instead on correcting wrongs, more modern effective training.
> 
> *The brutality with these tools was probably way less than it was in other countries like germany and holland where e-collars and harder trainingmethods was and still is more common*. It is a different dogculture and dogs are keept and trained differently, scandnavian countries is more about adpating the training to the dog, and the dogs should have some saying in what methods are acceptable to use on them So prongs and e-collars as standardtools will not be tolerated, the general public and other people who trains tracking,SAR etc on workingdogclubs will never accept or understand why for example protectiondogs should have these tools when training is more advanced today then 30 years ago, and most think this is good because there are plenty of people who have success without them here.
> 
> I understand the situation in US thou and it´s not strange many use them, but allowing e-collars and prongs because of neglected petdogs or to win in sports would never work here as an argument for using these tools again. I guess it´s the situation in general that is quite different.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Lol thats why Scandanavia is know for their many successful training and breeding programs as opposed to Holland or Germany...LOL.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hi GTF, I posted a link to an article from a very successful and experienced European trainer discussing the origins of the bans in Europe. I don't remember which page it was but can relink if you like.


No need to relink, Gwen, I can research it


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:laugh: 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol thats why Scandanavia is know for their many successful training and breeding programs as opposed to Holland or Germany...LOL.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

No worries....
Balanced Trainers | Bart Bellon - Balanced Trainers



> In half the countries in Europe where protection sports are popular, pinch collars and e-collars are official banned although used clandestinely. Helmet Raiser was one of the first guys in world who was able to tell people what he was doing in training; his honesty about his training methods were accepted. He could explain things to make them politically acceptable. However, in the midst of a training revolution in Europe in the mid-1990s, we were confronted with the book of Karen Pryor, Don’t Shoot The Dog. The politically active Animal Protection Lobby used this book as the Bible of evidence that only strictly positive training was needed to be effective and humane, and all other methods were demonized. We all had to re-evaluate our training techniques to counter the Animal Protection Lobby again.





glowingtoadfly said:


> No need to relink, Gwen, I can research it


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Quebec Bans Shock and Prong Dog Collars | The Dogington Post
I ran a search on prong and ecollar bans, and found this article. It is heavily slanted in the opposite direction of most of the discussion here, besides bjorn's comments. It states that germany is now also considering a ban.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Germany has already banned e collars.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Btw, there is also an effort to ban IPO.

Because that's how these sort of things roll.

.....it's mean to the dogs, like prongs and ecollars.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Schutzhund and positive reinforcement training - Chazhound Dog Forum
An interesting thread about whether it is possible to train IPO positively...
The only ban I could find of schutzhund was in australia, and apparently it is a partial ban. I would like more information on this ban if you have it.


----------



## björn

Gwen, no it was not banned because what was going on in other countries. Have you considered dogtraining is constantly evolving, maybe methods of the 60s isn´t the best way anymore, just as bart himself uses much "positive methods". EU isn´t one country, not all have banned breeds or want to ban dogsports, in sweden there are no breed bans or so much talk of banning protectionsports. Just as there are PO-cults there are also other "cults" in the opposite direction how a dog should be trained, and this is not always in the dogs intresst. Some of these SCH-gurus themselves have been caught of abusing dogs, some of them have also changed methods and admitted they did things wrong earlier. So we shouldn´t blame PO-activists only.

I don´t wanna sound like I´m sitting on a high horse, but if we talking about breeding, science on dogs and training, sweden is probably the most "evolved" country in that regard. THis probably goes back to the large involment in the national workingdog organization and it ties with the military. Large scale breedingprogramms sponsored by the state of GSDs for military/policedogs started already in the 30s and went on almost to the late 90s, so there is a lot of knowledge based on genetcis and training of such dogs who comes from there. The tools to use for breeding and the number of dogsports available is also not you see in other countries, so let´s do some reasearch before you talk about breedingprograms of workingdogs, there is a world outside show/IPO sports. The GSDs and malinois from belgian/german/dutch lines is by the way trained perfectly fine here by good trainers even if we have less e-collars and tools on them.

In the end it´s about views on dogs. It´s isn´t better to have a thin "legal" chokechain behind the ears and jerk hard to get the dog to out, or cause the same pain with a prong or e-collar. This is done by some here, as it is done everywhere, it´s more accepted in some countries thou as a "normal" method. If we talking lifesaving problems like e-collars for hunting that´s a whole other issue and discussion. But so far I haven´t really seen any argument why e-collars and prongs is better to use for the dogsporter or the general dogowner, it seems to me better education and handling on dogs would be what is needed in for example US, but I understand that is not so easy in a country of that size and maybe more petowners than people intressted in workingdogs of some type.


----------



## David Winners

You have seen the argument, you just don't have the experience to understand it. Better communication. No opposition reflex. Less damaging to anatomy. Greater range. Quicker learning meaning less stress on the dog. Solid proofing of behaviors at distance. The ability to stim the dog without obvious movement from the handler.

You just want to believe what you believe. Why would someone spend hundreds of dollars on equipment if there was no benefit? It's not like all the people debating this don't understand positive rewards, operant conditioning and fairness in training. 

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Bjorn, I'm first generation German American. I understand that the EU is not a monolithic block and further that's not germane to the discussion. I'm a bit surprised at your responses here, not the down to earth pragmatic type thoughts I am used to from my Scandinavian relatives.

Yes sir, you do really come across on a high horse and very disingenuous as well, every time you try to reframe this by imputing the worst possible cases/scenarios you've discredited your argument. Also as pointed out by others I too believe that your knowledge on the proper use of these tools is very limited.

You've not supported in any factual or logical way an actual need to justify a ban, a law in your country let alone other countries. All through this that's all I've asked.

Based on my research and personal experience these laws, no matter country or region, are put into place due to propaganda and propaganda only. Just last night I was reading a blog discussing some extreme cases where parents were using e collars to abuse their children. Of course the parents were also beating the kids and doing other heinous things but the blogger tried to link a ban on ecollars to those extreme cases where the parents were prosecuted and already in jail for child abuse.

That's the "logic" of propaganda. From a dolphin trainer, to child abuse, to a law affecting every single dog owner, based on nothing more then Pulp fiction propaganda.

If you and your countrymen are happy with that, fine, you live in a sovereign nation. I am not, however, going to ignore the underlying reality for the sake of your opinions.






björn said:


> Gwen, no it was not banned because what was going on in other countries. Have you considered dogtraining is constantly evolving, maybe methods of the 60s isn´t the best way anymore, just as bart himself uses much "positive methods". EU isn´t one country, not all have banned breeds or want to ban dogsports, in sweden there are no breed bans or so much talk of banning protectionsports. Just as there are PO-cults there are also other "cults" in the opposite direction how a dog should be trained, and this is not always in the dogs intresst. Some of these SCH-gurus themselves have been caught of abusing dogs, some of them have also changed methods and admitted they did things wrong earlier. So we shouldn´t blame PO-activists only.
> 
> I don´t wanna sound like I´m sitting on a high horse, but if we talking about breeding, science on dogs and training, sweden is probably the most "evolved" country in that regard. THis probably goes back to the large involment in the national workingdog organization and it ties with the military. Large scale breedingprogramms sponsored by the state of GSDs for military/policedogs started already in the 30s and went on almost to the late 90s, so there is a lot of knowledge based on genetcis and training of such dogs who comes from there. The tools to use for breeding and the number of dogsports available is also not you see in other countries, so let´s do some reasearch before you talk about breedingprograms of workingdogs, there is a world outside show/IPO sports. The GSDs and malinois from belgian/german/dutch lines is by the way trained perfectly fine here by good trainers even if we have less e-collars and tools on them.
> 
> In the end it´s about views on dogs. It´s isn´t better to have a thin "legal" chokechain behind the ears and jerk hard to get the dog to out, or cause the same pain with a prong or e-collar. This is done by some here, as it is done everywhere, it´s more accepted in some countries thou as a "normal" method. If we talking lifesaving problems like e-collars for hunting that´s a whole other issue and discussion. But so far I haven´t really seen any argument why e-collars and prongs is better to use for the dogsporter or the general dogowner, it seems to me better education and handling on dogs would be what is needed in for example US, but I understand that is not so easy in a country of that size and maybe more petowners than people intressted in workingdogs of some type.


----------



## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> No worries....
> Balanced Trainers | Bart Bellon - Balanced Trainers





> * In half the countries in Europe where protection sports are popular, pinch collars and e-collars are official banned * although used clandestinely. Helmet Raiser was one of the first guys in world who was able to tell people what he was doing in training; his honesty about his training methods were accepted. He could explain things to make them politically acceptable. However, in the midst of a training revolution in Europe in the mid-1990s, we were confronted with the book of Karen Pryor, Don’t Shoot The Dog. The politically active Animal Protection Lobby used this book as the Bible of evidence that only strictly positive training was needed to be effective and humane, and all other methods were demonized. We all had to re-evaluate our training techniques to counter the Animal Protection Lobby again.


A blog is not a reliable source for this kind of information. 





Gwenhwyfair said:


> Germany has already banned e collars.


I don't believe that this is accurate. I think that the SV, the governing body of SchH and IPO training in Germany has banned the use of the Ecollar by its members. But that does not have the force of law to ban the tool throughout the country for everyone. 

But if someone can provide a link to the the code section, I'll be happy to change my mind.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I tried to find it. I know there was a discussion of a ban in Vienna. Mrs K, a former member here who is from Germany had some threads on this topic. She also had a web site to fight back against the push to ban IPO. In fact one of the reasons that the sport was renamed from Schutzhund to IPO was in part at least an attempt to distance the sport from historical animal rights protests against it.

Also see the recent attempt to ban stick hits from the FCI world championship. 

There is a clear pattern developing here, all to appease and stay under the AR/PO crowds radar.

Further, the argument here has nothing to do with whether an individual can or can't train IPO with PO. That is and should be a matter of individual choice depending on the owner and his/her dog. This is about whether the PO people have any grounds for trying to force the rest of us to give up tools we do choose to use. 




glowingtoadfly said:


> Schutzhund and positive reinforcement training - Chazhound Dog Forum
> An interesting thread about whether it is possible to train IPO positively...
> The only ban I could find of schutzhund was in australia, and apparently it is a partial ban. I would like more information on this ban if you have it.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Lou?

I'm really confused by your response, in general. Are you saying you agree e collars should be banned?? If so then that's it, we're toast! 

1) Bart Bellon is a respected and well known trainer who is using a blog, along with other professional trainers, to STOP the bans on e collars and prongs. Just as your opinion carries weight here on this forum due to your experience so would Bart Bellon who is supporting the use of tools, appropriately.

2) I was researching the ban, it's cited on several sources if you google it. It's admittedly with loop holes though. If you wish to clarify please do as I know this is an area of your expertise.

I think...could be wrong...but you're coming in on this discussion late and may have misinterpreted some posts?




LouCastle said:


> A blog is not a reliable source for this kind of information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe that this is accurate. I think that the SV, the governing body of SchH and IPO training in Germany has banned the use of the Ecollar by its members. But that does not have the force of law to ban the tool throughout the country for everyone.
> 
> But if someone can provide a link to the the code section, I'll be happy to change my mind.


----------



## Blanketback

GTF, I thought it might be good to add this comment to the thread - it's the last comment found on the page you've linked. Very interesting! Of course, it doesn't make sense that the govt would ban the misuse of collars in particular, they should just enforce the cruelty laws already on the books. What next, banning the misuse of broomsticks? C'mon! There hasn't been any rational argument _for_ the bans. "Stop being mean to dogs" isn't an idea exclusively held by the pro-ban side, and it's tantamout to insulting to imply it. I refuse to accept this manipulation. 

Quebec Bans Shock and Prong Dog Collars: MOD ADDED LINK ***PLEASE ADD A LINK TO ARTICLES WHEN QUOTING DIRECTLY***
"i do not want to start a debate on whether or not to use these collars, i am just gonna give you some info,* the information is wrong*! the law article 26 states “the collar must not interfere with breathing or cause him pain or injury.” *they did not ban the use of these collars, they banned the misuse of them*… i have contacted MAPAQ and even a lawyer to get to the bottom of this. when i spoke to MAPAQ they said they would only step in in extreme cases, for example if someone chains there dog outside and the dog has a prong and is lunging all day than they would step in, but if someone is using it to walk their dog on a walk then that is fine, as it is its intended use. Also the picture in the article is taken from the “Guide d’application du règlement sur la sécurité et le bien-être des chats et des chiens” which is *NOT LAW it is just recommendations*."


----------



## björn

Of course corrections and punishmnet can be effective, I don´t think anyone argue with that, if it wasn´t people shouldn´t use it. But why use corrections, certain tools, more than you have to, few people seems to be really good at correcting dogs anyway without negative sideeffects, just look at even high level SCH-trials or other sports. So people who uses e-collars and prongs have better communication with their dogs and less stressfull, why doesn´t this shows in many dogs then if it was only depending on the tools you use. How is it less damaging to the anatomy`and mind if you don´t use hard jerks on a legal collar and do so often? Common sense would tell that the less tools and corrections you need the better trainer you are, then you have a good communication with your dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah. I've tried to avoid that aspect Blanketback, but it's there.

I know PO folks run into problems, especially with bite sports, where a lot of clubs and trainers won't change up their training for PO.

But....how many dirty looks does a person click click clicking away with a bag full of treats get vs a person with a dog heeling nicely but wearing a prong?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Lol I took tyson to a schutzhund club yesterday morning and he pranced in with his gentle leader and we were laughed at. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blanketback

björn said:


> Common sense would tell that the less tools and corrections you need the better trainer you are...


LOL, our definitions of "common sense" must vary greatly then. I'd bet my last dollar that David Winners is a better trainer than I am (there's an understatement for ya!) and yet he utilizes more tools that I do. How are you rationalizing your opinion?


----------



## David Winners

You know, I started to reply three times and deleted it. 

Your condescending posts do not deserve the time.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup you're going to run into that especially with the bite sports. I also will speculate it's only going to get worse as the PO crowd keeps trying to push bans on prongs, ecollars and some cases choke chains and fur savers.

Think of it as an opposition reflex. 



misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol I took tyson to a schutzhund club yesterday morning and he pranced in with his gentle leader and we were laughed at.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Baillif

Speaking of opposition relfex I think bjorn is going to oppose any rational arguements reflexively. If you can't win with rational arguements just use a lot of words and wear down the opposition with pure endurance.


----------



## Blanketback

Don't worry, it's just as bad from the other side - having to remove the prong and hide it before the clicker class. At least you were allowed to use your chosen tool! I just got a lecture about mine. Oh, a lecture without merit, parroting back to me the questions I wanted answers for, only turned into absolutes that time around.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Correct response.

Click! 

Cookie.







Baillif said:


> Speaking of opposition relfex I think bjorn is going to oppose any rational arguements reflexively. If you can't win with rational arguements just use a lot of words and wear down the opposition with pure endurance.


----------



## Blanketback

Well, a bunch of gobbledygook isn't going to win the argument either.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Btw, I've read and appreciated Bjorn's posts in the past. He's brought some good perspective and I really enjoy having input from folks from all around the world here. I look forward to more too.

Just not in this case. Oh my gosh, Bjorn you've used about every trick in the old logical fallacy bag on this one, including the "Gish Gallop".


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup you're going to run into that especially with the bite sports. I also will speculate it's only going to get worse as the PO crowd keeps trying to push bans on prongs, ecollars and some cases choke chains and fur savers.
> 
> Think of it as an opposition reflex.


The people at the club I frequent have actually been pretty non judgemental, though they have tried to convince me to use a prong or ecollar. Maybe they giggle behind my back, but I don't mind


----------



## glowingtoadfly

To be fair to bjorn, there has been a *lot* of opposition.


----------



## Blanketback

Why would that matter? Either you have valid points or you don't. Ten invalid opinions would be nullified by one good one. Numbers don't matter, just the argument.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

But on the bright side of things we were told that tyson has no people issues and what his trainer read into was not fear but more of s " I dont know you stay away from me" bark.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## RocketDog

I thought bjorn was a female?


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## Gwenhwyfair

:shrug: and a lot of benefit of the doubt too....



glowingtoadfly said:


> To be fair to bjorn, there has been a *lot* of opposition.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In response to Lou I've been trying to find more detailed info on which countries have bans. Can't find any real specifics. This is the generic list I find cited: Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Slovenia, Austria and many parts of Australia. Wales banned them in early 2010.

I suppose Norway should be in the list as well. Lots of info on the ban in Wales which includes electric invisible fences and bark collars too btw. Pretty severe punishments in Wales as well, big fines and jail time if caught using an e collar.

BBC News - Wales the first part of the UK to ban pet shock collars


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Good deal. . Glad to hear that!




glowingtoadfly said:


> The people at the club I frequent have actually been pretty non judgemental, though they have tried to convince me to use a prong or ecollar. Maybe they giggle behind my back, but I don't mind


----------



## Nigel

I wonder if this "sport" will ever gain traction in those countries that have banned ecollars, lol!


----------



## Baillif

holy crap that's awesome

You guys remember slam ball? Would have been way better with UTB stun guns.


----------



## Blanketback

OMG, that was funny! I honestly thought it was a spoof too, with the "One Ball, Two Goals" and the whole idea itself with the tazers. Oops, the joke's on me since I googled it and found out this is a real game. HA! Thanks for that, Nigel!!


----------



## björn

So if someone need prong and e-collar to train on high level to even the basic stuff, then he is a better trainer than someone who do it with a fursaver? A person I know of used a prong in the backtransport in IPO because he had to jerk so hard and plenty on chainlink so he wanted to avoid this. Is this better than someone who can solve this with less corrections or no corrections at all thru clever training?

The majority of petdogs gone wild could be managed with just a flatcollar if people just learned some basic rules and behaviour when young and shapeable and give it the stimulation it needs, it´s not a collarproblem it´s people who create problems.

So what is best, training that is smart and less dependent on escalating corrections, or training where you need more tools and harder corrections, is this the way to make people accept bitesports and not shouting about bans? You have to differ between the supposed link between bans on tools and future bans on dogsports, compared to training that is done in a way that you can train "legal" and don´t need to use prongs/e-collars and other methods that both dogpeople and the general public will have a problem with whetever you like it or not.

A norwegian militarytrainer doing a demo with a mondiodog, trained with "positive methods" and no prongs and e-collars, and it doesn´t look like he has been harshly trained with "legal" tools either, I guess someone needs to tell him he needs other tools and methods that are more "effective",
Demonstrasjon av mondioring


----------



## Blanketback

björn said:


> The majority of petdogs gone wild could be managed with just a flatcollar if people just learned some basic rules and behaviour when young and shapeable and give it the stimulation it needs, it´s not a collarproblem it´s people who create problems.


Many many dogs here are adopted as adults, after their original owners gave up on them. If the original owners were so lacking in commitment in the first place, it's impossible to expect them to have given the puppies a proper start in life either. Not everyone gets a puppy without any previous mishandling. Not to say they'll jump right to using a prong either, but they should be offered this tool if it can be used to the dog's advantage.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup.

BTW - I wonder how many videos we could post of trainers like Micheal Ellis, Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov successful on the podium? 

Usually, on other forums, this is the point where we start discussing bacon and kitteh memes. Not allowed here but very effective. 





Blanketback said:


> Many many dogs here are adopted as adults, after their original owners gave up on them. If the original owners were so lacking in commitment in the first place, it's impossible to expect them to have given the puppies a proper start in life either. Not everyone gets a puppy without any previous mishandling. Not to say they'll jump right to using a prong either, but they should be offered this tool if it can be used to the dog's advantage.


----------



## Nigel

Achieving higher levels of training or fixing behavioral issues with PO methods only, I don't buy it. I think some trainers say they are to be politically correct, but they are using some other form of aversion. Unless you there to watch every stage of training to ensure its all pink unicorns and rainbows, you have to be suspicious. Everything in balance, the right mix of positive and aversion, combined with the correct tools for each dog/situation.


----------



## björn

PO only is not something I have said either, but it´s not like the only correction we can use is prong or e-collar. Finding trainers who uses prong/e-collars are not hard, but dogtraining obviously can be done sucessfull without those tools, so that would be more impressive if they are so crucial for good training.


----------



## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I tried to find it. I know there was a discussion of a ban in Vienna. Mrs K, a former member here who is from Germany had some threads on this topic. She also had a web site to fight back against the push to ban IPO. In fact one of the reasons that the sport was renamed from Schutzhund to IPO was in part at least an attempt to distance the sport from historical animal rights protests against it.


I have a vague memory of discussing this before. Never were any of the parties able to supply code sections from the respective governments to support their contention that there was a ban in any countries described as having them. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Also see the recent attempt to ban stick hits from the FCI world championship.
> 
> There is a clear pattern developing here, all to appease and stay under the AR/PO crowds radar.


I’m told by several sources that there's more to it than just a conflict between training philosophies. As with many things, the way to find the answer is to "follow the money." The SV has slowly been taken over by show dog people as opposed to working dog people who historically, were at its head. There's more money to be made and less work in selling show dogs than there is working dogs, so the show dog people gained ground and positions of power as the working dog people lost ground. But show dogs do not have the temperament to do some of the exercises in SchH. And so rather than breed better dogs, they've decided to dumb down the sport. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Lou?
> 
> I'm really confused by your response, in general. Are you saying you agree e collars should be banned?? If so then that's it, we're toast!


No I'm not saying that Ecollars should be banned. I was just questioning the veracity of a blog as a reliable source of information as to where they're banned at present. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> 2) I was researching the ban, it's cited on several sources if you google it. It's admittedly with loop holes though. If you wish to clarify please do as I know this is an area of your expertise.


What "ban" were you researching? There were many mentioned. As far as I know there is only one country where Ecollars are banned, Wales. There as restrictions in some countries but many of them are a joke. In one territory in Oz, all it takes to overcome the ban is a letter from a vet. In some countries if you are a "trainer" the Ecollar can be used. There are no specified requirements as to what constitutes a trainer. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think...could be wrong...but you're coming in on this discussion late and may have misinterpreted some posts?


That's always possible, but I don't think the bans are at this moment, as serious or as widespread as some are claiming. It's pretty simple to support a claim that a ban exists, simply provide the appropriate government codes that show that it is. This stuff is on the Net, if it exists.


----------



## Baillif

So did we just have a thread naught for pretty much no reason? If so...hilarious


----------



## Sarah~

Baillif said:


> So did we just have a thread naught for pretty much no reason? If so...hilarious


I was thinking the same thing lol. At least it made for a great discussion!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Bjorn, is Lou correct? Your country has NOT actually banned e collars (or prongs)? If so can you back up that claim?

Mishka&Milo claimed earlier that her country, Norway has banned the use of these tools as well. 

Lou -
Your comments in blue: perhaps a liberal use of the word 'ban' is the problem. I tried to find more specific cites and couldn't with the exception of the law in Wales, which indeed should fall under 'ban'.

Still whether it's a restriction within a kennel club or a region proposing a ban or restrictions on the use of equipment should we really be parsing those differences? Isn't it ridiculous that people have to jump through hoops, small though they maybe in some cases? The principle of it is wrong from the start. What's to stop the AR/PO crowd from tightening those restrictions even further?

I did go to the electronic collar manufacturer website and they have a release regarding the actual bans, restrictions and proposed bans and restrictions. Granted they have a vested interest but so do the PO/AR crowd who indeed, in reality, are pushing for these bans and pushing hard.

I really am surprised that you are taking such relaxed stance on this. 




LouCastle said:


> I have a vague memory of discussing this before. Never were any of the parties able to supply code sections from the respective governments to support their contention that there was a ban in any countries described as having them.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m told by several sources that there's more to it than just a conflict between training philosophies. As with many things, the way to find the answer is to "follow the money." The SV has slowly been taken over by show dog people as opposed to working dog people who historically, were at its head. There's more money to be made and less work in selling show dogs than there is working dogs, so the show dog people gained ground and positions of power as the working dog people lost ground. But show dogs do not have the temperament to do some of the exercises in SchH. And so rather than breed better dogs, they've decided to dumb down the sport.
> 
> 
> 
> No I'm not saying that Ecollars should be banned. I was just questioning the veracity of a blog as a reliable source of information as to where they're banned at present.
> 
> 
> 
> What "ban" were you researching? There were many mentioned. As far as I know there is only one country where Ecollars are banned, Wales. There as restrictions in some countries but many of them are a joke. In one territory in Oz, all it takes to overcome the ban is a letter from a vet. In some countries if you are a "trainer" the Ecollar can be used. There are no specified requirements as to what constitutes a trainer.
> 
> 
> 
> That's always possible, but I don't think the bans are at this moment, as serious or as widespread as some are claiming. It's pretty simple to support a claim that a ban exists, simply provide the appropriate government codes that show that it is. This stuff is on the Net, if it exists.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

......indeed, who was that masked man?


----------



## Blanketback

Bjorn, please read this and tell me what you think:

Vibrerende halsbånd

Pay special attention to the posts by "Zerro" and "syvendefar" and if you can find the parallel thread that was mentioned by s, and link it, I'd love to read that as well.


----------



## björn

Blanketback, it was discussion on a deaf dog and using vibrationcollar to get his attention, then some discussion aganst and for e-collars, not different from here

I`m not 100% sure about norway, if you have special permission I think you can use it, but this is mostly for hunters in certain areas. In sweden you can´t use it by law, but you can own one this is OK for some reason Denmark, finland and germany, switzerland it´s also not allowed, but I don´t know if it´s a total ban or just not allowed on workingdogs clubs in germany for example. Switzerland has even banned all colllars that can "hurt" the dog, halfchokes is OK, that is a bit silly and extreme I think.

In sweden you can seek for dispensation but it´s very hard to get, this have been done in extreme cases a few times by the police for policedogs who hunted animals, not for protectiontraining.
A person who worked there as an instructor at the time discussed this on his blogg, he is a bit like the swedish version of CM His reasoning why he not like e-collars is because it´s mostly used either for remove something the owner has problem with, or it´s used for getting higher points and precision in competitions. For problembehaviours he had more understanding for it but was still critical. If the dogs has extreme problems that can´t be solved by other means then the owner often has more than this particular problem and therefore the dog may not be "saved" anyway by going thru hard corrections with e-collars which can have bad sideeffects on the dog and go wrong.

For competition a few skilled trainers are able to do good and impressive results, but his point was most can´t, so it´s not better than normal traditional training, in a country where this is illegal it´s a bit like cheating in sports by using forbidden drugs and nothing to be impressed about, and I think he has a point there considering there are good results by some who don´t train with e-collars.


----------



## Blanketback

Yes, I know the thread started as a question about using vibration to communicate with a deaf dog, but Zerro's thoughts on the ecollar reminded me of David's message: that it's more than just an aversive and people who don't know _that_ are uneducated in their use. I'm paraphrasing, plus I had to read the thread using google translate, so who knows what was lost there, lmao! But still, it seems that there's much that we don't know about using them, and the knee-jerk reaction that they're bad training (because we _think_ so) is wrong, IMO. Education on proper use would be the way to go, don't you think? Rather than an outright ban?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks for answering, I do appreciate it.

I think Lou's point is the "a lot of countries have bans" is a falsehood trying to impress that there is a great deal of support for bans. (Sort of an appeal to popularity to win a point)

He's got a point in that if you can't provide a link or cite to the actual law then.....it may not be so.

Normally I would defer to a person who lives in the country in question, but I couldn't find any detailed information regarding the laws (other then Wales) specifying the details of the laws in the various EU countries.

Do you have anything?





björn said:


> Blanketback, it was discussion on a deaf dog and using vibrationcollar to get his attention, then some discussion aganst and for e-collars, not different from here
> 
> I`m not 100% sure about norway, if you have special permission I think you can use it, but this is mostly for hunters in certain areas. In sweden you can´t use it by law, but you can own one this is OK for some reason Denmark, finland and germany, switzerland it´s also not allowed, but I don´t know if it´s a total ban or just not allowed on workingdogs clubs in germany for example. Switzerland has even banned all colllars that can "hurt" the dog, halfchokes is OK, that is a bit silly and extreme I think.
> 
> In sweden you can seek for dispensation but it´s very hard to get, this have been done in extreme cases a few times by the police for policedogs who hunted animals, not for protectiontraining.
> A person who worked there as an instructor at the time discussed this on his blogg, he is a bit like the swedish version of CM His reasoning why he not like e-collars is because it´s mostly used either for remove something the owner has problem with, or it´s used for getting higher points and precision in competitions. For problembehaviours he had more understanding for it but was still critical. If the dogs has extreme problems that can´t be solved by other means then the owner often has more than this particular problem and therefore the dog may not be "saved" anyway by going thru hard corrections with e-collars which can have bad sideeffects on the dog and go wrong.
> 
> For competition a few skilled trainers are able to do good and impressive results, but his point was most can´t, so it´s not better than normal traditional training, in a country where this is illegal it´s a bit like cheating in sports by using forbidden drugs and nothing to be impressed about, and I think he has a point there considering there are good results by some who don´t train with e-collars.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Wow! Blanketback going deep and setting it up well

. :thumbup:



Blanketback said:


> Yes, I know the thread started as a question about using vibration to communicate with a deaf dog, but Zerro's thoughts on the ecollar reminded me of David's message: that it's more than just an aversive and people who don't know _that_ are uneducated in their use. I'm paraphrasing, plus I had to read the thread using google translate, so who knows what was lost there, lmao! But still, it seems that there's much that we don't know about using them, and the knee-jerk reaction that they're bad training (because we _think_ so) is wrong, IMO. Education on proper use would be the way to go, don't you think? Rather than an outright ban?


----------



## Blanketback

Lol, don't mess with my tools! Even tools I haven't used yet - just because I haven't used it yet doesn't mean I'm not going to want it the future. I care about keeping the options available, so that I can choose the most appropriate tool to achieve my goals with my dog. It's not a question of 'less tools is better' to me, since I believe what's 'best' is whatever my dog understands the easiest. 

Maybe it is just a cultural difference? I've never been to Norway, unfortunately, so I can't say. I have been to other countries where the dogs are allowed the freedom to forgo leashes, can be taken on transit, are welcome inside businesses...totally opposite how they're treated here. People say that North Americans treat their dogs like children, but other places actually treat them like family. I like it better over there! I'd imagine that training them, where they're used to more freedom, would be easier in general.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Ehhhh I don't know if it's as much cultural as generational? Growing up we never, ever referred to dogs as "fur kids". They were part of the family but not on par with humans, it's a dog, was the refrain. The arguments Bjorn uses are the same as put forth in other developed countries seeking to ban prongs or e collars.

We've got plenty of AR loonies in the U.S.(and Canada) too.....

Meanwhile I think if people are concerned about animal welfare they really should be looking at how the animals we use for food are raised, treated and slaughtered. I'm a big supporter of humane farming practices, buying grass fed and free range meat and such and eating less of it. 

Companion animals actually are protected from cruelty via anti cruelty laws and just in our area we have two cases where the abusers have been convicted and are going to jail.


----------



## Blanketback

It's not just generational though. Growing up in the 70's everyone let their dogs roam the neighborhood. That was so long ago! But now I'm living in a rural-residential area rather than urban, hey it's roaming dog party all over again! I would have thought that practice was long gone, what with cars and other dangers. Nope.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, but even those who let their dogs roam are more likely to think of their dogs as a human family member. On the local pet face book page people come on complaining about their dogs being hit by cars and how the drivers should be treated like murderers. Naturally that makes me do the 'face palm' maneuver because a couple of these people have lost more then one dog this way. You just didn't hear that sort of thing back in the 60s or 70s.



Blanketback said:


> It's not just generational though. Growing up in the 70's everyone let their dogs roam the neighborhood. That was so long ago! But now I'm living in a rural-residential area rather than urban, hey it's roaming dog party all over again! I would have thought that practice was long gone, what with cars and other dangers. Nope.


----------



## Blanketback

Do all the super-kooks congregate on fb? There's one place you'll never find me, because I have a sneaky suspicion the answer is yes. LOL. 

I appreciate the roaming dogs' attitudes in general. They're not usually aggressive, for one. They'll follow what interests them, so if you don't pay attention to them, they'll move along. They're a PITA if you're teaching your own dog to mind the property boundary, but also work well as a proofing distraction, lol. The casualties due to cars around here are the pet cats - the dogs have them all figured out. Except for one, who last time I saw him he was limping, and I'm guessing the owner got the hint?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

FB can be a kooky place for sure!! 

Oh yeah and some were even saying the drivers were intentionally trying to hit the dogs. I find that highly unlikely but because everyone knows each other IRL for the most part there's no peer pressure on such silliness lest someone's feelings get hurt. That's FB!

I also contemplate the fact that the whole "dogs are people" thing is at the very least aided and abetted by marketing to sell more pet products.

Though it's like a pendulum and eventually it will swing back....some...I hope. I like the fact that we do consider our dogs well being more then it was back in 'the day' but then there's too much of a good thing too.....


----------



## Baillif

I miss the days when facebook was only for college students with college email addresses and all the freaks congregated on myspace.


----------



## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Lou -
> perhaps a liberal use of the word 'ban' is the problem. I tried to find more specific cites and couldn't with the exception of the law in Wales, which indeed should fall under 'ban'.
> 
> Still whether it's a restriction within a kennel club or a region proposing a ban or restrictions on the use of equipment should we really be parsing those differences? * Isn't it ridiculous that people have to jump through hoops, small though they maybe in some cases? The principle of it is wrong from the start. What's to stop the AR/PO crowd from tightening those restrictions even further? *


* 

Yes, it is ridiculous. No they should not have to jump through any hoops. Nothing is to stop that crowd from trying to tighten those restrictions, except those of us who use the tools and know the truth about them. It seem that this is a "think globally, act locally" kinda thing. When this kind of legislation comes up, fight it with common sense, reason logic and demonstrations with dogs that have been properly trained with the Ecollar. 



Gwenhwyfair said:



I did go to the electronic collar manufacturer website and they have a release regarding the actual bans, restrictions and proposed bans and restrictions. Granted they have a vested interest but so do the PO/AR crowd who indeed, in reality, are pushing for these bans and pushing hard.

Click to expand...

Got a link to those comments on that site? 



Gwenhwyfair said:



I really am surprised that you are taking such relaxed stance on this.

Click to expand...

Maybe I don't get upset easily? I don't see that there's anything to be done at this point. What am I missing?*


----------



## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think Lou's point is the "a lot of countries have bans" is a falsehood trying to impress that there is a great deal of support for bans. (Sort of an appeal to popularity to win a point)


Yep, you got it. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> He's got a point in that if you can't provide a link or cite to the actual law then.....it may not be so.


I've been in dozens of on-line arguments with the anti Ecollar crowd who make this kinds of statement, "Well if Wales doesn't like them, they must not be any good and we should ban them too." Then they recite a long list of countries where they claim Ecollars are banned. Somehow when I ask for them to support their arguments, they don't respond. 

When they banned them in Wales the antis went around to the legislators and had them feel the stim of a Dogtra Ecollar. They told the law makers that the collar was set "on the lowest possible setting." But they made the mistake of videoing some of these demos and you could easily see that the collar were set on a level that was about 2/3 (as I recall) power. That's about a setting of 85 out of 127, a pretty high setting, much higher than is necessary except for a very small percentage of dogs. They are also only using the Ecollars for aversion or correction training. They know nothing about the use of low level stim. 

But this is often the case with legislators. They know little to nothing about the topic, but believe what they are told. Had there been someone on the ground there to counter the antis, I doubt that the legislation would have passed. But there was no one there to help out. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Normally I would defer to a person who lives in the country in question, but I couldn't find any detailed information regarding the laws (other then Wales) specifying the details of the laws in the various EU countries.


Usually that's a mistake because people tend to believe the rumors if it comes from a respected source. But my experience is that often the source is wrong.


----------



## Blanketback

_If_ my dog was people, he'd be required to earn a paycheck. He has no idea what it's like to slave away at a job that's only good for the money it brings in. _After_ he's helping out with the household bills, _then_ we'll talk about his curfew. LOL!


----------



## björn

Blanketback said:


> Bjorn, please read this and tell me what you think:
> 
> Vibrerende halsbånd
> 
> Pay special attention to the posts by "Zerro" and "syvendefar" and if you can find the parallel thread that was mentioned by s, and link it, I'd love to read that as well.


Ok, the discuss how a stim can means something positive to the dog if you pair it with something the dog like. It´s the defintion of aversive they seems to have different opinion of. If it´s not an aversive even if you have learned the dog to respond in a positive way, depends on how much it´s used and for long etc. Still I guess the main use of an e-collar is to cause discomfort of different levels to learn the dog something or to stop a behaviour.


----------



## Blanketback

Have you heard the joke: the only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the 3rd one is doing everything wrong? Lol! There are no language barriers either


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! Exactly. Our house is operated for the convenience and comfort of the dogs. They have gel beds strewn about, Ilda sleeps on serta memory foam bed with clean sheets on it. They have a lovely back yard with grassy areas and wooded area where they can play.

Ilda surrounded by nyla bones, with a cozy fireplace crackling away just out of camera shot, hugging her little 'chickie' toy as she snoozes.

Yeah she's got it rough. :laugh:






Blanketback said:


> _If_ my dog was people, he'd be required to earn a paycheck. He has no idea what it's like to slave away at a job that's only good for the money it brings in. _After_ he's helping out with the household bills, _then_ we'll talk about his curfew. LOL!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Lou, I looked at it on the IPAD last night and I'm on my other computer. Tried to find it via google but cannot find it and must run. I will use the ipad and look at the history to find it and link for you later and respond to some of your other comments.

As always, appreciate having you chime in on topics such as this. 



LouCastle said:


> Yes, it is ridiculous. No they should not have to jump through any hoops. Nothing is to stop that crowd from trying to tighten those restrictions, except those of us who use the tools and know the truth about them. It seem that this is a "think globally, act locally" kinda thing. When this kind of legislation comes up, fight it with common sense, reason logic and demonstrations with dogs that have been properly trained with the Ecollar.
> 
> 
> 
> Got a link to those comments on that site?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I don't get upset easily? I don't see that there's anything to be done at this point. What am I missing?


----------



## jafo220

björn said:


> That´s like saying all people abuse e-collars or prongs the worst way possible, if people who use other collars hang their dogs instead and therefore just as bad. I don´t think a brutal person should have any tool, it´s not going backwards to be able to train without the "stoneage" methods used by some, and whatever collar you use it´s only a tiny part. A good trainer is of course more able to handle all types of methods.
> 
> More effective methods could be to use no corrections at all in an exercises where you previously corrected hard because you didn´t know other solutions. Using a prong to be able to walk isn´t "abusive" but it´s just all these problems are not due to collars to start with, and there´s a bunch of way to solve problems who don´t involve these tools either, getting help from someone who knows what he does is more important.
> 
> The question is why these tools should be used then for sport/workingdogs, would people be better trainers if they started to use e-collars and prongs again in sweden for example? And by better trainer I don´t mean using an e-collar to quicker and easier get 1-2 point more in IPO. It´s funny people says they know how top trainers do things in sports and military yet I doubt they have been around in various countries in EU and looked at how people train, so all use prongs and e-collars then, or hanging and kicking, or they lie or have little knowledge about dogtraining I don´t care so much that people use them in countries where they are legal, I´m more intessted to hear why they are a better alternative for a good trainer.


I'll have to answer your question with questions.

How do you evaluate a "good trainer" if you don't know what a good trainer "looks like"? In other words, your basic dog owner wouldn't know a good trainer from a novel trainer. 

You spend $100 for a six week course to find out your no further ahead then when you started. You do exactly what this trainer tells you to do and spend hours working with the dog. What then? Find another trainer? Spend another $100 and spend six more weeks for another trainer that may or may not work out? 

I've spent time with two trainers. Both approached training in different methods but still no prongs or e-collars. Positive training only. Dog still not responding. By a prong, dog responds. Get another new trainer, e-collar training is coming. 

In the end, results through reasonable methods and tools talk the loudest.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

RE: The two statements in blue, sometimes reason and logic work sometimes they don't. As many trainers are pointing out in a broader sense we've allowed the PO/AR crowd dictate the conversation for too long. It's something I personally push back on now almost daily when I have the opportunity. So I think from a grass roots level to a legislative level we cannot afford to be relaxed about this. As you noted there are various restrictions and some bans gotta fight the back the tide.......

Here is the link with one of the press releases, excerpt of one below and noted that a ban was successfully stopped in Scotland!



> *23.01.2014* - *Response to a call for a ban of electronic collars *_Angela Critchley, spokesperson, ECMA (Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association) comments:_
> The Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association™ (ECMA) is committed to helping pet owners care and take responsibility for all dogs – not just the good ones. We believe that by utilising high quality, safe products owners can ensure that their dog’s behaviour is socially acceptable and consistent with the Animal Welfare Act and wider public safety responsibilities.
> Statements suggesting that electronic training products cause pain and distress to animals demonstrate a lack of awareness regarding animal welfare science, law, and the range of electronic training products available - their use and practical everyday value


 Full press release along with others at this link, click on Green "Welcome":

*Welcome* Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association



LouCastle said:


> Yes, it is ridiculous. No they should not have to jump through any hoops. Nothing is to stop that crowd from trying to tighten those restrictions, except those of us who use the tools and know the truth about them. It seem that this is a "think globally, act locally" kinda thing. When this kind of legislation comes up, fight it with common sense, reason logic and demonstrations with dogs that have been properly trained with the Ecollar.
> 
> 
> 
> Got a link to those comments on that site?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I don't get upset easily? I don't see that there's anything to be done at this point. What am I missing?


----------



## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here is the link with one of the press releases, excerpt of one below and noted that a ban was successfully stopped in Scotland!
> 
> Full press release along with others at this link, click on Green "Welcome":
> 
> *Welcome* Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association


The anti movement took a big hit when DEFRA finished a multiyear investigation into Ecollars with a neutral position. They were hoping that DEFRA would get on board with a ban. I was following it closely with some contacts in the UK and didn't hold much hope, they used local people mostly who only use the collar for aversion, things like sheep breaking and aggression. Those folks don't know much about low stim use. 

But like rust, these people never sleep.


----------



## björn

jafo220 said:


> I'll have to answer your question with questions.
> 
> How do you evaluate a "good trainer" if you don't know what a good trainer "looks like"? In other words, your basic dog owner wouldn't know a good trainer from a novel trainer.
> 
> You spend $100 for a six week course to find out your no further ahead then when you started. You do exactly what this trainer tells you to do and spend hours working with the dog. What then? Find another trainer? Spend another $100 and spend six more weeks for another trainer that may or may not work out?
> 
> I've spent time with two trainers. Both approached training in different methods but still no prongs or e-collars. Positive training only. Dog still not responding. By a prong, dog responds. Get another new trainer, e-collar training is coming.
> 
> In the end, results through reasonable methods and tools talk the loudest.


Yes, that´s an issue if someone doesn´t know that. In sweden you can go to puppycourses and learn the basic handling of a puppy and then move on the older the dog gets, this is done by educated instructors under the wings of the national workingdog club. If someone have a special intresset in one of the workingdogsports then by good trainer I mean someone who has had succees in one of those sports, this could be a private instructor/seminar or you train with a group on the club. I guess in US that´s more problematic and you are more left out in the hands of others who may or may not be good trainers.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Additionally - "Good Trainer" is driven by market principles as much as results with clients.

Folks like Victoria Stillwell are invested not only in reputation but in making money and they try to do that by monopolizing the methodology. 

They are, quite literally, invested in 'being right' even if they don't actually 'get it' right. They of course won't admit that, but it's there, driving some of these arguments between methods, money.

Most trainers deal with dogs that have some sort of behavior issue, like jumping, pulling on the leash, counter surfing and maybe (like my trainer) also work with people like me who interested in dog sports, be it bite sports, agility, OB. ect.


----------



## Baillif

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Additionally - "Good Trainer" is driven by market principles as much as results with clients.
> 
> Folks like Victoria Stillwell are invested not only in reputation but in making money and they try to do that by monopolizing the methodology.
> 
> They are, quite literally, invested in 'being right' even if they don't actually 'get it' right. They of course won't admit that, but it's there, driving some of these arguments between methods, money.
> 
> Most trainers deal with dogs that have some sort of behavior issue, like jumping, pulling on the leash, counter surfing and maybe (like my trainer) also work with people like me who interested in dog sports, be it bite sports, agility, OB. ect.


She let me know everything I needed to know about her when she executed a dog with a phone call. Couldn't solve an issue with a cookie? Put the dog down.


----------



## Blanketback

Unfortunately, _anyone_ can call themselves a trainer over here. Between the online courses, the chain store classes, and the training franchises, we're lucky our dogs aren't complete basket cases!


----------



## Baillif

Ask me how many certified ABC trainers dropped their own dogs off for board and train because they couldn't do it.


----------



## Blanketback

I have my own horror story with my ABC "trainer" lmao. 
I'm going to start a school myself, it's called Abracadabra, and once you've been tapped with my magic wand, you're an expert in any field of your choosing. It works perfectly for those unregulated occupations


----------



## Baillif

Lol


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The DEFRA study, very interesting. One thing I pondered was how could something like this be studied objectively as possible? With the variations of personality, temperament and skill of the trainers influencing results? Observers reading dog body language as 'stress' when it may be indicative of something else, so the cortisol levels studied are interesting.

At times the cortisol levels varied but sometimes the ecollar dogs were higher, the same or lower, especially on the training days. Behavior assessments found the ecollar dogs to be more tense AND in another measure more relaxed? Also 4 dogs in the ecollar group seemed to skew the results a bit, as they did not behave like the rest of the dogs in the group. 

My personal take away from the study is pretty much the same as before, ecollars can be an effective and humane tool when used properly but it's really important to tailor training to the dog's temperament and it's owner too. 


http://www.petbc.org.uk/Electric%20Dog%20Collars.pdf


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

They aren't all bad.....I would say to be fair. 

The one I've known and worked with is totally ineffective. I stopped referring to her. Her own dogs aren't even house trained. 



Baillif said:


> Ask me how many certified ABC trainers dropped their own dogs off for board and train because they couldn't do it.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, that's the downside with the PO people. I tried the 'turn the back' thing for dogs that jump and ended getting scratch marks all over my back.

She did some episodes in ATL and the folks she was working with had a Cane Corso they wanted to do protection training with.

So she (to her credit) took them to a protection training session.

It was sort-a funny to watch her literally jump back when one of the dogs went for a bite. She was clearly very intimidated by those dogs.

She did talk the owners out of going into protection training which, actually, was probably a good thing.

I'll have to see if her discussion forum is still around...."Purely Positive".



Baillif said:


> She let me know everything I needed to know about her when she executed a dog with a phone call. Couldn't solve an issue with a cookie? Put the dog down.


----------



## Blanketback

Maybe they're all not "bad" but anything less than excellent is really doing our dogs a disservice. I didn't mind my time with the ABC wanna-be dog trainer, but only because I wanted the clicker training experience, since that was new to me. There's no way on earth I'd refer anyone to her if they wanted anything other than a few fun hours in the park, working with distractions.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Oh, I just say that only because to say they are all bad would be false, in the most literal sense. 

Hey, did you see the picture of my girl sleeping with her little toy? Ain't she just the cutest thing ever? hehehe

See, I'm really bad I use a prong to train and luvs my little snuggle puppy to death! 



Blanketback said:


> Maybe they're all not "bad" but anything less than excellent is really doing our dogs a disservice. I didn't mind my time with the ABC wanna-be dog trainer, but only because I wanted the clicker training experience, since that was new to me. There's no way on earth I'd refer anyone to her if they wanted anything other than a few fun hours in the park, working with distractions.


----------



## Blanketback

Your girl sure is cute!  The sleeping while snuggling toys is pretty adorable.

I think I'll disagree just for the fun of it - I'll say that they are indeed all bad, because anyone who does have what it takes to be a dog trainer will be out working with dogs because they love doing it - either getting hired at a facility, or volunteering at a shelter, anything to get closer to the dogs themselves. On the other hand, the glorious dream of being a Dog Trainer is something else, but can be satisfied by enrolling in a course and finding any old joe to mentor with. That's my terribly skeptical view of the issue, lol.


----------



## Baillif

You can go take out a loan and go to the Michael Ellis school for dog trainers. Every course there is only like 20-30k in total

Or you can do something like sit means sit and train for two weeks. I'm sure the quality of education is the same


----------



## Blanketback

That's some serious coin! I hope they have a screening process to weed out the never-coulds.


----------



## Baillif

The coin generally does that.


----------



## Blanketback

I had a Tom Rose dream myself one time...

ETA: SMS was what I had in mind re: franchises. Blah!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:apple: Thanks.

Nah....I can see them having some success, with certain dogs, sometimes.






Blanketback said:


> Your girl sure is cute!  The sleeping while snuggling toys is pretty adorable.
> 
> I think I'll disagree just for the fun of it - I'll say that they are indeed all bad, because anyone who does have what it takes to be a dog trainer will be out working with dogs because they love doing it - either getting hired at a facility, or volunteering at a shelter, anything to get closer to the dogs themselves. On the other hand, the glorious dream of being a Dog Trainer is something else, but can be satisfied by enrolling in a course and finding any old joe to mentor with. That's my terribly skeptical view of the issue, lol.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That's where my current trainer went....



Blanketback said:


> I had a Tom Rose dream myself one time...
> 
> ETA: SMS was what I had in mind re: franchises. Blah!


----------



## Blanketback

LMAO!  Let me guess, when the moon is right?

ETA: TR is to ABC what some fancy culinary school is to working the McD fryer!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!

I'm sure some bad trainers come out of TR and ME schools too for that matter.

I sure was edumicated by the ABC trainer though, I'll tell ya.

She has a doggie day care, one of the client's dogs got out while in her and her staff's care, was hit by a car, found a week later. She blamed the clients for not teaching the dog to not go out doors on it's own. They had to take the dog to a veterinary hospital for surgery to repair it's broken hip and she threatened to sue THEM! 

(eta no I do not work there either.....as in, uh uh NO way....  )




Blanketback said:


> LMAO!  Let me guess, when the moon is right?
> 
> ETA: TR is to ABC what some fancy culinary school is to working the McD fryer!


----------



## LouCastle

Baillif said:


> She let me know everything I needed to know about her when she executed a dog with a phone call. Couldn't solve an issue with a cookie? Put the dog down.


Karen Pryor, the darling of the PP movement, killed her own cat when she could not stop him from peeing on the stove burners. How about you close the freakin' kitchen door! How about you crate the cat! How about you close the cat in the bedroom? How about you rehome the cat! 

She didn't even take the cat to the vet to be PTS. She took it to the pound! And then she was stupid enough to put it in her book, _Don't shoot the Dog! _ It's on page 109 (of the paperback version) for the doubters. 

And this is the trainer that they point to when telling us how fantastic their methods are, and what monsters we are for using Ecollars.


----------



## huntergreen

i still have my pinch collars and will use them when needed.


----------



## Baillif

LouCastle said:


> Karen Pryor, the darling of the PP movement, killed her own cat when she could not stop him from peeing on the stove burners. How about you close the freakin' kitchen door! How about you crate the cat! How about you close the cat in the bedroom? How about you rehome the cat!
> 
> She didn't even take the cat to the vet to be PTS. She took it to the pound! And then she was stupid enough to put it in her book, _Don't shoot the Dog! _ It's on page 109 (of the paperback version) for the doubters.
> 
> And this is the trainer that they point to when telling us how fantastic their methods are, and what monsters we are for using Ecollars.


She must have had it taken out of the revised version. The copy I have here is a 2009 reprint. I don't doubt you though.


----------



## Blanketback

The 1999 edition still has it, on page 101.
Also can be found by scrolling down to 46 on this link, 5th paragraph:
http://www.docunator.com/bigdata/1/1365570569_ded8c63c32/karen_pryor_-_don_t_shoot_the_dog.pdf

Maybe someday, they'll find a connection between the PP/AR movement and a severe personality disorder? That's the only explanation I can think of, when I wonder why some of them act the way they do.


----------



## Baillif

Ooh there it is found it. It's still in there. Page 101 it is.

What really gets me is her understanding of punishment and why people do it. I use it because the science says it works. The results say it works. Not because I want to feel dominant, or I'm angry and want revenge. I do it because science said if you want to weaken a behavior that is what you do. Maybe if she spent less time trying to find a motivation and more time figuring out how to punish the behavior when she wasn't there to catch the cat or like Lou said do a common sense thing like management the cat wouldn't have died.

Mouse traps on the stove top or clear tape sticky side up would have done the trick. Just silly reason to kill an animal.


----------



## Blanketback

The misunderstanding could be deep-rooted from their own learning experiences, or lack thereof? I know +P works because it works for me. I've had a few instuctors that were very valuable to me. My driving instructor, after my first 2 mistakes on the hand-over-hand turn, swatted my hands and bingo, I got it. My firearms instructor wouldn't let me fire until I had the correct shooting stance - by physically repositioning me - and bingo, I got that too. Why wouldn't they? This is very important, and it's extremely difficult to correct bad habits once they've been practiced. Dogs are no different.

I agree with Ted Kerasote's ideas about how vital autonomy is to our dogs. In _Pukka's Promise_, he goes on at length about the ecollar and why he chose to use it: pages 269-280.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Human beans have some fatal flaws. One of which is the tendency to prioritize "being right" over actually "getting it right".

Often self worth is tied up much too closely to one's ideas or POV. Being wrong makes them feel uncomfortable, so like the dogs, they avoid unpleasant stimulus. Of course it's really superstition that drives that behavior. 

We tend not to view things as simply problems to be solved but as ideological conflicts. When pressured they'll deify their stance to make it appear morally correct and give it more weight, even if the evidence in reality shows them to be incorrect. Often this sets the believers up to be **flagrant hypocrites as well. The more they are bombarded by their 'wrongness' the more entrenched (stubborn) they become. 

All this because they don't want to feel even a little prick of ego because they may have been wrong about an idea. Then add in the money motivator and increase that all by the power of 10 at least....

I suppose at sometime in human development this was part of some sort of survival mechanism, else it wouldn't be so prevalent in our nature. Sometimes I wonder at the fact that we as species have made it this far, but that's philosophical discourse for another day.   


(** hypocrisy happens, unintentionally usually and that's o.k. no one is perfect, it's just that sometimes people _really, really_ set themselves up to be super duper hypocrites because of pure stubbornness, see > Karen Pryor's Cat. )




Blanketback said:


> The 1999 edition still has it, on page 101.
> Also can be found by scrolling down to 46 on this link, 5th paragraph:
> http://www.docunator.com/bigdata/1/1365570569_ded8c63c32/karen_pryor_-_don_t_shoot_the_dog.pdf
> 
> Maybe someday, they'll find a connection between the PP/AR movement and a severe personality disorder? That's the only explanation I can think of, when I wonder why some of them act the way they do.


----------



## Blanketback

I know I exaggerate alot, but I'm dead serious here. Check out the Millon's subtypes, the traits in 2nd and 3rd (scroll to the chart):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anankastic_personality_disorder#Anankastic_personality_disordera 

I swear, if I had to do a thesis, this is where I'd start.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Interesting.

That's what I would call 'well defended egos' going off the rail!

A study was done recently about how people change their minds (or often don't).

Mostly it's because they associate admitting to being wrong with being a failure and they can't handle it and will act out in ways to protect themselves. 

As a friend of mine put it:

"It's about certainty. When we allow science or discovery to find the answers, real answers it betrays your mind, since your mind does not want truth, it wants comfort."



Blanketback said:


> I know I exaggerate alot, but I'm dead serious here. Check out the Millon's subtypes, the traits in 2nd and 3rd (scroll to the chart):
> 
> Obsessive?compulsive personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I swear, if I had to do a thesis, this is where I'd start.


----------



## Blanketback

No, there's more to it than that. I honestly believe it's closer to a true personality disorder, akin to narcissistic. When you figure: the founder of PETA is on record saying she routinely went to work early to PTS cats, when a famous PO trainer has can't see how damaging a captive life would be to a wild animal, when Karen Pryor's 2nd sentence in this book we're mentioning says, "How to get the cat off the kitchen table..." in the Foreword - no, there's something going on: a mental disconnect.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Maybe, for the 'leaders' it's closer to that, I can see that but the average Joe & Jane Public pet owner it's more of being misinformed and stubborn of the garden variety type. 

Also, for the 'leaders' as I mentioned don't forget that a lot of their personal wealth is tied up in the 'belief' systems they build too.

In some cases it's treated almost as if it were a religion.........



Blanketback said:


> No, there's more to it than that. I honestly believe it's closer to a true personality disorder, akin to narcissistic. When you figure: the founder of PETA is on record saying she routinely went to work early to PTS cats, when a famous PO trainer has can't see how damaging a captive life would be to a wild animal, when Karen Pryor's 2nd sentence in this book we're mentioning says, "How to get the cat off the kitchen table..." in the Foreword - no, there's something going on: a mental disconnect.


----------



## Blanketback

Ah, I get what you're saying now - good point, I definitely didn't intend to imply that the average person that wants to try the PO route has a personality disorder! Good save there Gwen, thanks! Lol, sorry people...yes, I did mean the leaders who have massive blinders on.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

I'm with ya.....



Blanketback said:


> Ah, I get what you're saying now - good point, I definitely didn't intend to imply that the average person that wants to try the PO route has a personality disorder! Good save there Gwen, thanks! Lol, sorry people...yes, I did mean the leaders who have massive blinders on.


----------



## selzer

So now if we don't use prong collars, we have personality disorders and mental disconnects. Wow. 

Positive training does work. Too many people just do not believe it will, and for them it won't. I think that you have to have confidence in a method to get good results from the method. 

Positive training may actually be harder on everyone, including the dog, but it does actually work. You can shape the behaviors you want, and motivate the dog without using punishment. 

I think outspoken people who tend to rise to the top of organizations probably do have some character flaws here and there. But people who want to build a relationship based on trust and try to do that by that using a training approach that teaches a dog what they want it to do by using the dog's desire for praise, treats, toy, rather than a training approach that teaches a dog by using their desire to avoid a negative sensation, are not flawed in character.

I think the problem is that people who shy away from any corrections, feel that corrections and punishment will shake that foundation of trust, or cause the dog to not be able to trust. And nothing is farther than the truth. Critters who understand their boundaries who have owners who are fair and consistent will trust those owners. 

If positive training is done without consistency, then those owners will fail to have a good bond of trust between them and their dogs. It is the whole Positive is Permissive myth that too many people who want to be positive fail to understand and avoid.


----------



## Blanketback

Lol, that's not what I meant. Anyhow, everyone uses +P they just don't know it to see it. You gave your dog a gentle nudge away from the counter? Yup, you just used +P. It's not all yank & crank, lol.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! See, Blanketback you opened a can-o-worms now. 

Sue, that part of the discussion originated with *some* of the *extreme* PO people, especially leaders like Karen Pryor who would rather put an animal down (like her own cat) rather then try another method using some (any?) form of correction. 

I know this thread is super long but you know how it goes in threads, things evolve and if you don't catch the first part that lead to the last few posts, it gets out of context.


----------



## Baillif

selzer said:


> So now if we don't use prong collars, we have personality disorders and mental disconnects. Wow.
> 
> Positive training does work. Too many people just do not believe it will, and for them it won't. I think that you have to have confidence in a method to get good results from the method.
> 
> Positive training may actually be harder on everyone, including the dog, but it does actually work. You can shape the behaviors you want, and motivate the dog without using punishment.
> 
> I think outspoken people who tend to rise to the top of organizations probably do have some character flaws here and there. But people who want to build a relationship based on trust and try to do that by that using a training approach that teaches a dog what they want it to do by using the dog's desire for praise, treats, toy, rather than a training approach that teaches a dog by using their desire to avoid a negative sensation, are not flawed in character.
> 
> I think the problem is that people who shy away from any corrections, feel that corrections and punishment will shake that foundation of trust, or cause the dog to not be able to trust. And nothing is farther than the truth. Critters who understand their boundaries who have owners who are fair and consistent will trust those owners.
> 
> If positive training is done without consistency, then those owners will fail to have a good bond of trust between them and their dogs. It is the whole Positive is Permissive myth that too many people who want to be positive fail to understand and avoid.


Nobody is saying that. I'd venture to say the majority of us here use positive reinforcement rather frequently. Would I rather my dog work for something than to work to avoid something but both paths when done right lead to a happy dog, and both combined lead to a dog with a very clear easy choice to make regarding a particular behavior and a happy dog.

People who refuse to believe it despite being in a position to see it all the time probably have some sort of issue.


----------



## selzer

I caught those posts, but its evolving into personality disorders for people who want to train with positive only or positive reinforcement, I don't know, sometimes a word here or there, might lessen how far things are carried.

Really, there are extremists in both camps, and there are a lot of great people in the middle using what seems right from either camp. But it is just as bad to point at Karen Pryor and say Positive Only, Positive Reinforcement people have personality disorders, as it is to point at the cop that hung his dog up and kicked it to death, or the many people that choked dogs until they were unconscious and say, people that use these tools are sadists, cruel, whatever. 

Mentioning that cat, and how the failure of positive techniques have lead such trainers to euthanize animals is a valid point, it makes sense that that information gets to whoever is trying to pass stupid laws, and the general public, that is too easily swayed about too many things. But to paint everyone that trains that way with the same brush is wrong and hurts your argument. Suggesting that positive techniques don't work, well I think that isn't a good argument either.

I think your best arguments are that it requires less force, less fighting, and less injury to train the dog using the tools, and the dog is more likely to succeed in certain venues where the dog is being trained to work even if the dog is being attacked. 

I think when we make an argument that other methods do not work, therefore we must use these methods, the general conception will be that people need to be brutal with the dogs to get them what they want them to do.


----------



## Blanketback

I have to admit, when I see my very petite neighbor being dragged down the road by her rottie, going full speed ahead, I do want to ask her what's _wrong_ with her. LOL!

But seriously: selzer, it was a few days ago that you yourself suggested a prong when the owner was getting pulled to the ground. And it was just this morning that I suggested _not_ using a prong, in their situation. So I think it's pretty obvious that we can agree that they have a time and a place.


----------



## Baillif

I cant speak for them but it sounded like they were going after a very specific subset of person that refuses to see things any other way and are so fully entrenched their personal self worth is tied up into it. That never seemed like a blanket statement (see what i did there?) towards all positive reinforcement trainers.


----------



## Blanketback

I was speaking specifically about what I consider an extremely warped attitude, an illness. Certainly not something that pertains to a training philosophy. It wasn't a blanket statement, lol!


----------



## selzer

Blanketback said:


> I have to admit, when I see my very petite neighbor being dragged down the road by her rottie, going full speed ahead, I do want to ask her what's _wrong_ with her. LOL!
> 
> But seriously: selzer, it was a few days ago that you yourself suggested a prong when the owner was getting pulled to the ground. And it was just this morning that I suggested _not_ using a prong, in their situation. So I think it's pretty obvious that we can agree that they have a time and a place.


I am not against prong collars. I do not like the idea that a person cannot control a large dog without them. 

I can see them used temporarily with a new adult dog who is a handful, until proper training can set it. But if someone is too physically weak and leadership-challenged to properly manage a large dog, then they should not own the large dog. Because that is an accident just waiting to happen. 

The dude with the dog dragging them to the ground. Well, my initial take on that, was to keep the handler upright and injury free so they can work on getting the dog where it needs to be. 

I think too many people do not see prongs as a training tool, but as a management tool. And I dislike that thinking. 

I don't use them because I can't use them in the ring, so I see no reason to start my voyage with one, and then have to switch over to something and when I am in the ring, I really do not want the dog to understand that half of my oomph is missing. I suppose if I train without it, I will be less likely to enter a trial before we are ready, and less likely to be surprised at the end of the day. 

But for all of that, this thread is about laws to ban them. And, I am totally against that.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Incorrect which is why I took pains to clarify and Blanketback acknowledged that she didn't mean it that way.

:shrug:





selzer said:


> I caught those posts, *but its evolving into personality disorders for people who want to train with positive only* or positive reinforcement, I don't know, sometimes a word here or there, might lessen how far things are carried.
> 
> Really, there are extremists in both camps, and there are a lot of great people in the middle using what seems right from either camp. But it is just as bad to point at Karen Pryor and say Positive Only, Positive Reinforcement people have personality disorders, as it is to point at the cop that hung his dog up and kicked it to death, or the many people that choked dogs until they were unconscious and say, people that use these tools are sadists, cruel, whatever.
> 
> Mentioning that cat, and how the failure of positive techniques have lead such trainers to euthanize animals is a valid point, it makes sense that that information gets to whoever is trying to pass stupid laws, and the general public, that is too easily swayed about too many things. But to paint everyone that trains that way with the same brush is wrong and hurts your argument. Suggesting that positive techniques don't work, well I think that isn't a good argument either.
> 
> I think your best arguments are that it requires less force, less fighting, and less injury to train the dog using the tools, and the dog is more likely to succeed in certain venues where the dog is being trained to work even if the dog is being attacked.
> 
> I think when we make an argument that other methods do not work, therefore we must use these methods, the general conception will be that people need to be brutal with the dogs to get them what they want them to do.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

This.



Blanketback said:


> Ah, I get what you're saying now - good point, *I definitely didn't intend to imply that the average person that wants to try the PO route has a personality disorder*! Good save there Gwen, thanks! Lol, sorry people...yes, I did mean the leaders who have massive blinders on.


----------



## Blanketback

Thanks Gwen 

I thought I was pretty clear?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I was thinking, we've stumbled upon a new fallacy. I think we should call it- 'Karen's Cat' argument = death is better then changing one's mind.


----------



## Blanketback

Well, I did do some thinking about this. It seemed odd that both you and selzer thought I meant everyone using PP/PO training. But then it dawned on me, that having been raised by a borderline, that I'm intimately familiar with this. Where some might see "hypocrisy" I see the typical dissociation. But I'm no PhD, just used to it - it makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## Baillif

She should have called the book Don't Shoot the Dog but Cats? Go for it.


----------



## Blanketback

It is kind of creepy, thinking that unless an animal can be trained using your own methods, that death is the consequence for failure.


----------



## Baillif

It happens all the time all across America.


----------



## Blanketback

True. But how many of these owners are directly responsible for garbling the lexicon of training theory? Where +P turns into 'punishment = abuse' hmm?


----------



## Baillif

Yeah when you put it like that it is really creepy. She's all like this cat is a sacrifice on the alter to my moral stand against Bf Skinners science. I wonder if the alter has an eternal flame. I bet it's fueled from the souls of all the animals she's responsible for putting to sleep.


----------



## Blanketback

Lol Baillif!

Bjorn, I found this interesting article:
Duller vi for mye med hunden? – Hund&Fritid! - Norges hotteste hundemagasin
"I seemed to see increasing trends we are worse and worse at correcting our dogs and decide on them. It's almost become a trend in Norway that dogs should get to do as they please."

Who is Vegard Nordby? He could be talking about all my neighbors' dogs, lol! Except over here, it's not because of how they train their dogs - it's the simple fact that they don't bother training them at all. Really, aside from housetraining, that's about it. No recall, nothing


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

For my part my reponse was more about being cautious and trying to avoid pot-kettle baloney that often spins up on the net.

BUT....that's interesting and it does help me understand your perspective better. 



Blanketback said:


> Well, I did do some thinking about this. It seemed odd that both you and selzer thought I meant everyone using PP/PO training. But then it dawned on me, that having been raised by a borderline, that I'm intimately familiar with this. Where some might see "hypocrisy" I see the typical dissociation. But I'm no PhD, just used to it - it makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. 



Baillif said:


> She should have called the book Don't Shoot the Dog but Cats? Go for it.


----------



## Blanketback

This book is about how to train anyone—human or animal, young or old, oneself or others—to do
anything that can and should be done. How to get the cat off the kitchen table or your grandmother to stop nagging you. (from the Foreward)

The cat had free access to the outdoors, I never caught her at the behavior, and if you covered the burners she urinated on the covers. I could not decipher her motivation, and I finally took that cat to the pound to be put to sleep. (scroll to 46, or see pg. 101/109 in the actual book, depending on edition)

http://www.docunator.com/bigdata/1/1365570569_ded8c63c32/karen_pryor_-_don_t_shoot_the_dog.pdf

This could be called hypocrisy. Or if you're like me and you're used to seeing someone form their own version of reality, taking bits here and pieces there, then it's totally true to form. It's hard to talk about this, since people have enough trouble with the stigmas related to it already. But it's there.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well....that's sad you know?

This is what I recommend btw, has a little motion detector gives the cat a little bit of a scare with a blast of compressed air but....it's not harsh and it works without human intervention. Put it on the stove or table, where ever needed problem solved. 

Amazon.com: SSSCAT Cat Training Aid: Pet Supplies


----------



## Blanketback

Good old aluminum foil works too - and you can use that to cover the areas of furniture you don't want used as a scratching post. I just got an awesome cat tree for mine, and she doesn't even care about my couches. Oh, I do mist it with catnip, so that might have something to do with it, lol!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, they don't like that feel under their paws OR a rubber car matt (new) turned upside down so the nubby side is up, it has the little sharp nubs on the bottom. Kitties will stay off of that as well. 

See....so many simple solutions......


----------



## Blanketback

But here we're both adding an aversive to suppress behavior - in other words, we're using +P. This is wrong! Don't ask me _why_ it's wrong, it just is. LOL!


----------



## Chip18

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well....that's sad you know?
> 
> This is what I recommend btw, has a little motion detector gives the cat a little bit of a scare with a blast of compressed air but....it's not harsh and it works without human intervention. Put it on the stove or table, where ever needed problem solved.
> 
> Amazon.com: SSSCAT Cat Training Aid: Pet Supplies


Hey thanks. I have a couple of cats that are ticking me off!

Throw rugs and a book shelf seem to be targets?? Never considered PTS??

But hen I'm "not" a professional.


----------



## selzer

The thought of urine on stove burners has solidified my determination to never again have an indoor cat. I like cats. I had a lovely cat. And my parents had a cat. But with asthma and having to have the litter box in the vanity in the bathroom with a cat door in one of the doors to keep the dogs from feasting on its contents -- there are few things worse than a sloppy canine kiss after said canine had been at the litter box. 

But now, I think that if I ever, ever consider another indoor cat, like for the rodents that tend to come in when it gets cold out there, I will think of urine on stove burners, and get a rat terrier of some variety instead.


----------



## Blanketback

Mice love to nest underneath the stovetop - I couldn't use my stove once the mice got at it - since it wasn't used frequently enough, while my place sat empty. OMG, the smell when I turned the oven on could knock you down! It was garbage after that. Never let a place sit empty and let mice take over! But maybe her cat was trying to cover the scent left by mice? Who knows, if cats do that, the way a dog will?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I had a Siamese kitty that started peeing outside of the litter box. It was not like him at all. One day he walked into the livingroom while I was watching TV, went into a corner peed and looked at me and cried so pitifully. I took him to the vet next morning and he had urinary crystals. Poor thing was trying to tell me he was in pain. Some people aren't careful enough with litter box cleaning. I've seen it happen when a new cat or other pet is introduced. Usually with the kitties it's a sign of illness or stress. 

@ chip, glad the info was helpful. . You may want to watch the show on animal planet, "my cat from he.." Actual title. It's interesting what makes cats tick.


----------



## Chip18

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I had a Siamese kitty that started peeing outside of the litter box. It was not like him at all. One day he walked into the livingroom while I was watching TV, went into a corner peed and looked at me and cried so pitifully. I took him to the vet next morning and he had urinary crystals. Poor thing was trying to tell me he was in pain. Some people aren't careful enough with litter box cleaning. I've seen it happen when a new cat or other pet is introduced. Usually with the kitties it's a sign of illness or stress.
> 
> @ chip, glad the info was helpful. . You may want to watch the show on animal planet, "my cat from he.." Actual title. It's interesting what makes cats tick.


Oh I watch that guy all the time pretty amazing what he has been able to do! 

I have one male cat that has UTI on Royal Canin S/O for life..17 years so far.

The other guys (always the males) are just A holes they don't seem to like throws in the kitchen, a book shelf in the living room and a cup board in the dinning room!

Wish they made E collars for cats!! But I don't know who's doing it and I never see them? 

A hole neighbor yet again!! If not for him we would mostly now have only one or maybe three cats but not 8. That's still down from 13 or was it 15??

One was pregnant and I'm pro life as it were.  So one became 4, I did place one kitten..should have kept at it.

And then the A hole neighbor abandoned a mom and three kittens! So I brought then in from the snow and they stayed.

Oh well for the most part, they are a lot of fun. 

The indoor guys (save for one) are actually door trained, snap and tishh sound they turn right around..won't go out the door into the back yard and they act like we don't even have a front door!


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
Look at how Karen Pryor was able to help Ben and Emma. I think she is being judged too harshly in this thread for making a controversial choice. I recently came upon a story of a dog, I can't say where, who was so scarred by ecollar overuse that he shook when he heard his name. He had to be given a new name. He also shook when he heard "platz". These are tools to be respected, and sometimes they are not. When they are not, the dog suffers.


----------



## David Winners

When I put an e-collar in a kids hand and find their working level, they giggle.

You don't have a dog in this fight because you lack the knowledge necessary to understand how the tools are applied.

The tool has nothing to do with instilling fear in a dog. The person with their finger on the button does.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I am actually anti-ban... and learning more about the proper use of these tools every day, despite choosing to work AF with my own dogs. I just felt that Karen was given a bad rap for making a mistake with her cat. I think that the AF people are trying to keep these tools out of the wrong hands. It can be compared to firearms bans, actually. It is a different tool in different hands, some people are for castle doctrine and concealed carry, some are for outright bans.


----------



## LouCastle

glowingtoadfly said:


> Look at how Karen Pryor was able to help Ben and Emma.


Any trainer who's been at it for more than a few months can provide such testimonials. If you want to read a rehabilitation where an Ecollar was used in two sessions to save a fear aggressive dog's life, look here. Http://www.loucastle.com/simon2. 

But really this is something that this crowd does with great frequency, cite what is clearly abuse, as if it was a "normal training technique." There are idiots out there using all sorts of "tools." 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I think she is being judged too harshly in this thread * for making a controversial choice. *


You think that Ms. Pryor killing her cat is controversial? Please find me someone else who thinks it's OK to kill a pet because the owner is too stupid, lazy, ignorant, or thoughtless to close the freakin' kitchen door! How about crating the cat? How about rehoming the cat? There were MANY options that did not involve killing the cat. AND she could not even take the cat to her vet where the deed could be done in a quiet and warm atmosphere. Instead she "took it to the pound!" This isn't _"controversial,"_ IT'S DISGUSTING! AND THEN she has the nerve to compare it to sending a child to his room, as a training method! There is a serious 'disconnect' going on here. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I recently came upon a story of a dog, I can't say where, who was so scarred by ecollar overuse that he shook when he heard his name. He had to be given a new name. He also shook when he heard "platz".


I can't imagine why you _"can't say where"_ you heard it, who are you protecting? Many of these stories are false, made up by anti−Ecollar zealots. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> These are tools to be respected, and sometimes they are not. When they are not, the dog suffers.


You can replace the word "Ecollar" in your sentence and put in virtually ANY tool, and it makes just as much sense. _"Any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiotproof to the right idiot."_ 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I just felt that Karen was given a bad rap for * making a mistake * with her cat.


_"A MISTAKE!!!!!!!!"_ This was not A MISTAKE. A mistake is when you make an error adding up a column of numbers. I mistake is when you buy room spray that has the wrong scent. A mistake is when you take the wrong freeway off ramp. This is a result of laziness, stupidity and ignorance. It escalated to a cold, calculated act of cruelty. The attempt to cover up or make excuses for this ghastly act of heartlessness by Ms. Pryor's acolytes is amazing. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I think that the AF people are trying to keep these tools out of the wrong hands.


If people have _"the wrong hands"_ they shouldn't have dogs or any other kind of animals. The problem, as can be seen my Ms. Pryor's act is not in the tool or the method, it's in the user of that tool or method. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> It can be compared to firearms bans, actually. It is a different tool in different hands, some people are for castle doctrine and concealed carry, some are for outright bans.


The argument is the same. Some people should not have guns. Some people should not have dogs. Some people should not have cats. Someone who kills a cat because (in her words) * "I could not decipher her motivation, *_and I finally took that cat to the pound to be put to sleep"_ should be drummed out of the pet industry. Instead, she's the darling of the PP movement. The cat paid with her life because of Ms. Pryor's ignorance and laziness. Sometimes _"deciphering ... motivation"_ isn't important. Shut the darn kitchen door and the problem is over.


----------



## Baillif

Any force free trainer worth a **** is going to have management as a part of their bag of tricks anyway. It's really kind of mind blowing it came to that.


----------



## Blanketback

LouCastle said:


> If people have _"the wrong hands"_ they shouldn't have dogs or any other kind of animals. The problem, as can be seen my Ms. Pryor's act is not in the tool or the method, it's in the user of that tool or method.


Absolutely! THE USER! And it's infuriating to me to be likened to these abusive types. IRL, where I don't have to monitor myself, this kind of conversation doesn't last long. It's so incredibly insulting to be told that I hang my dog on a prong collar, because _other_ people do. WTH? 

IF I was abusive with my training, I could use anything I wanted to punish my dog for noncompliance. I could use manicure scissors and give my pup a whack on his side whenever he broke his position while training the off-leash heel. HOW ridiculous would that be?! It boggles my mind. I'm actually only using verbal cues, and it's quite easy. Probably an ecollar would make it even easier.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> Absolutely! THE USER! And it's infuriating to me to be likened to these abusive types. IRL, where I don't have to monitor myself, this kind of conversation doesn't last long. It's so incredibly insulting to be told that I hang my dog on a prong collar, because _other_ people do. WTH?
> 
> IF I was abusive with my training, I could use anything I wanted to punish my dog for noncompliance. I could use manicure scissors and give my pup a whack on his side whenever he broke his position while training the off-leash heel. HOW ridiculous would that be?! It boggles my mind. I'm actually only using verbal cues, and it's quite easy. Probably an ecollar would make it even easier.


I was not likening you personally or anyone else to the trainer who hung Ben, Blanketback. Simply adding some links to balance the conversation.


----------



## Blanketback

Ahhhhh....deep breath. Why do you need to tell people to be careful? Do you assume everyone is sadistic in their methods?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Nope. Just making sure everyone reading this knows these tools can be misused and there are trainers out there who misuse them. Just letting people know to be careful which trainer they trust with their dog for prong/ecollar training


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Nope. Just making sure everyone reading this knows these tools can be misused and there are trainers out there who misuse them.


And there are plenty of AF trainers who would rather kill a dog (or cat apparently) than try something outside their box (proven to work). 

Can we put that warning with every AF thread? "Be careful...sometimes positive only/AF isn't enough...your trainer may want to kill the dog...don't do it...there are other options."

ETA: I think it's crazy that a woman killing an animal instead of considering options outside her "comfort" level, is excused, forgiven, misunderstood, mistaken, and "judged too harshly", in your eyes....but someone misusing a prong/ecollar, is the end all be all, most terrible thing in the world to you. Leading to a justification of never using them on your own animal. Do you not see the hypocrisy there???? You are willing to forgive and adopt methods by a trainer that KILLED their animal when the methods didn't work. Someone misuses/abuses a TOOL, you won't touch it and are warning everyone about it's dangers. I just don't get it....I really don't.


----------



## Blanketback

That I totally understand. But crappy trainers can ruin a dog without even touching these tools. Why should crappy training enter the conversation?


----------



## boomer11

DaniFani said:


> And there are plenty of AF trainers who would rather kill a dog (or cat apparently) than try something outside their box (proven to work).
> 
> Can we put that warning with every AF thread? "Be careful...sometimes positive only/AF isn't enough...your trainer may want to kill the dog...don't do it...there are other options."
> 
> ETA: I think it's crazy that a woman killing an animal instead of considering options outside her "comfort" level, is excused, forgiven, misunderstood, mistaken, and "judged too harshly", in your eyes....but someone misusing a prong/ecollar, is the end all be all, most terrible thing in the world to you. Leading to a justification of never using them on your own animal. Do you not see the hypocrisy there???? You are willing to forgive and adopt methods by a trainer that KILLED their animal when the methods didn't work. Someone misuses/abuses a TOOL, you won't touch it and are warning everyone about it's dangers. I just don't get it....I really don't.


Hahaha touche. Btw killing the cat for the reasons she did is the definition of heartless. Is she too stupid to rehome it?


----------



## boomer11

glowingtoadfly said:


> Who wants a cat who pees on the stove? Anyone? Boomer?


Who is heartless and stupid enough to kill a cat or dog or any animal for peeing on anything?! Anyone? Gtf?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Not me. I'm not a euthanizer... Karen Pryor isn't all bad though. I find it interesting that correction trainers use her methods too.
History of Clicker Training I | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani said:


> And there are plenty of AF trainers who would rather kill a dog (or cat apparently) than try something outside their box (proven to work).
> 
> Can we put that warning with every AF thread? "Be careful...sometimes positive only/AF isn't enough...your trainer may want to kill the dog...don't do it...there are other options."
> 
> ETA: I think it's crazy that a woman killing an animal instead of considering options outside her "comfort" level, is excused, forgiven, misunderstood, mistaken, and "judged too harshly", in your eyes....but someone misusing a prong/ecollar, is the end all be all, most terrible thing in the world to you. Leading to a justification of never using them on your own animal. Do you not see the hypocrisy there???? You are willing to forgive and adopt methods by a trainer that KILLED their animal when the methods didn't work. Someone misuses/abuses a TOOL, you won't touch it and are warning everyone about it's dangers. I just don't get it....I really don't.


I would be interested to see some actual proof that plenty of AF trainers advise people to euthanise because their methods aren't enough. Dani, you seriously don't think what happened to Ben when he was hung up by a prong until he voided his bowels was terrible enough to warrant warnings that not all prong/ecollar trainers are created equal?


----------



## boomer11

Well duh people who use corrections also train positively. I swear you talk talk talk but don't listen. I start out my dog with treats and praise. Lots of it. I bet everyone in this thread uses praise and treats. The difference is I also use corrections. It's called balance.

People like you use treats and that's all you do. That's not balance. It's bribing.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

LouCastle said:


> Any trainer who's been at it for more than a few months can provide such testimonials. If you want to read a rehabilitation where an Ecollar was used in two sessions to save a fear aggressive dog's life, look here. Http://www.loucastle.com/simon2.
> 
> But really this is something that this crowd does with great frequency, cite what is clearly abuse, as if it was a "normal training technique." There are idiots out there using all sorts of "tools."
> 
> 
> 
> You think that Ms. Pryor killing her cat is controversial? Please find me someone else who thinks it's OK to kill a pet because the owner is too stupid, lazy, ignorant, or thoughtless to close the freakin' kitchen door! How about crating the cat? How about rehoming the cat? There were MANY options that did not involve killing the cat. AND she could not even take the cat to her vet where the deed could be done in a quiet and warm atmosphere.  Instead she "took it to the pound!" This isn't _"controversial,"_ IT'S DISGUSTING! AND THEN she has the nerve to compare it to sending a child to his room, as a training method! There is a serious 'disconnect' going on here.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine why you _"can't say where"_ you heard it, who are you protecting? Many of these stories are false, made up by anti−Ecollar zealots.
> 
> 
> 
> You can replace the word "Ecollar" in your sentence and put in virtually ANY tool, and it makes just as much sense. _"Any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. No tool is idiotproof to the right idiot."_
> 
> 
> 
> _"A MISTAKE!!!!!!!!"_ This was not A MISTAKE. A mistake is when you make an error adding up a column of numbers. I mistake is when you buy room spray that has the wrong scent. A mistake is when you take the wrong freeway off ramp. This is a result of laziness, stupidity and ignorance. It escalated to a cold, calculated act of cruelty. The attempt to cover up or make excuses for this ghastly act of heartlessness by Ms. Pryor's acolytes is amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> If people have _"the wrong hands"_ they shouldn't have dogs or any other kind of animals. The problem, as can be seen my Ms. Pryor's act is not in the tool or the method, it's in the user of that tool or method.
> 
> 
> 
> The argument is the same. Some people should not have guns. Some people should not have dogs. Some people should not have cats. Someone who kills a cat because (in her words) * "I could not decipher her motivation, *_and I finally took that cat to the pound to be put to sleep"_ should be drummed out of the pet industry. Instead, she's the darling of the PP movement. The cat paid with her life because of Ms. Pryor's ignorance and laziness. Sometimes _"deciphering ... motivation"_ isn't important. Shut the darn kitchen door and the problem is over.


In response to the ecollar-scarred dog part of this post-a trusted friend is rehabilitating this dog and I am protecting her identity.


----------



## Blanketback

What happened to Ben should never have happened in the first place. The trainer that the owner was already using should have been contacted, and that trainer should have instructed the owner on how to handle her 7 month old puppy. There was no excuse for this abuse, nor any reason for it.


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> I would be interested to see some actual proof that plenty of AF trainers advise people to euthanise because their methods aren't enough. Dani, you seriously don't think what happened to Ben when he was hung up by a prong until he voided his bowels was terrible enough to warrant warnings that not all prong/ecollar trainers are created equal?


You're missing my point. Of course people misuse prongs/ecollars/flat collars/leashes...rocks...their foot to the dog's butt...that's the point, everything is misused. You're willing to use these scare tactics to attach fear to a tool. Yet you are completely fine with forgiving and defending and subscribing to a trainer who's method for dealing with a difficult case was killing the animal. 

My approach to someone considering using a prong would never be, "hey, be careful...lots of people misuse this tool. Dog's have voided bowels from it being misused...YOU might misuse it too." My approach would be, "cool...this is how you properly use it." That's it. 

Every time someone puts a collar on their puppy I don't share a bunch of embedded collar photos and tell them to be careful because collars can become imbedded if not changed. Nor do I let embedded collars, caused by the stupidity of owners, to effect my "feelings" about collars. I have no "feelings" about tools...they're tools. Everything in life has a right and wrong way of being used. 

Of course no one believes hanging a dog and having it release it's bowels is good training...of course no one would recommend that. It's an extreme, scare tactic, example. How can you so easily use these scare tactics, and yet make excuses for one of the top trainers in your methodology who KILLED her animal when her methods wouldn't work?? Hypocrisy.

You want examples of animals being put to sleep when positive only tactics don't work?? You volunteer at animal shelters, it happens every day at those shelters across the country. I know because I've volunteered too, I've also watched my TD rehab dogs the shelter wanted to put down because their methods weren't working. Dogs that would eat you AND your cookie lol. They were re homed, successfully. Not using positive only...but balanced, fair, clear, training.

It's funny that it's surprising to you that trainers that use compulsion use karen's methods too. I don't know how many people can say this to you, balanced trainers are BALANCED, they will never subscribe 100% to Karen because she isn't balanced at all. They use the positive stuff and then balance it out with compulsion for clarity. Balance involves a little of everything...unbalanced uses one side.


----------



## gsdsar

I honestly don't understand why aversive are so horrible. 

Every human and animal needs to understand that there are consequences to a wrong choice. If a child did something wrong, do you ignore it and only praise them when the did something right? Or do you punish them? Or am I misunderstanding? 

No animal can learn without the benefit if understanding that actions have consequences. If the dog is doing something you don't like, it doesn't mean that the dog is not getting a reward if you don't reward it. The act of doing said bad thing is often a reward in itself. 

There are certain behaviors that I never allow my dog to think about. It's do it, or face serious consequences. Do I start out with corrections, no. I teach first with positive methods. I make it fun. But at some point, the dog MUST come when I say. Or they are in a boat load if trouble. My dog MUST drop when I tell it. This is not negotiable. This will save it's life. I would rather have my dog react because it does not want a correction and be alive than the alternative. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani said:


> You're missing my point. Of course people misuse prongs/ecollars/flat collars/leashes...rocks...their foot to the dog's butt...that's the point, everything is misused. You're willing to use these scare tactics to attach fear to a tool. Yet you are completely fine with forgiving and defending and subscribing to a trainer who's method for dealing with a difficult case was killing the animal.
> 
> My approach to someone considering using a prong would never be, "hey, be careful...lots of people misuse this tool. Dog's have voided bowels from it being misused...YOU might misuse it too." My approach would be, "cool...this is how you properly use it." That's it.
> 
> Every time someone puts a collar on their puppy I don't share a bunch of embedded collar photos and tell them to be careful because collars can become imbedded if not changed. Nor do I let embedded collars, caused by the stupidity of owners, to effect my "feelings" about collars. I have no "feelings" about tools...they're tools. Everything in life has a right and wrong way of being used.
> 
> Of course no one believes hanging a dog and having it release it's bowels is good training...of course no one would recommend that. It's an extreme, scare tactic, example. How can you so easily use these scare tactics, and yet make excuses for one of the top trainers in your methodology who KILLED her animal when her methods wouldn't work?? Hypocrisy.
> 
> You want examples of animals being put to sleep when positive only tactics don't work?? You volunteer at animal shelters, it happens every day at those shelters across the country. I know because I've volunteered too, I've also watched my TD rehab dogs the shelter wanted to put down because their methods weren't working. Dogs that would eat you AND your cookie lol. They were re homed, successfully. Not using positive only...but balanced, fair, clear, training.
> 
> It's funny that it's surprising to you that trainers that use compulsion use karen's methods too. I don't know how many people can say this to you, balanced trainers are BALANCED, they will never subscribe 100% to Karen because she isn't balanced at all. They use the positive stuff and then balance it out with compulsion for clarity. Balance involves a little of everything...unbalanced uses one side.


I did not say surprised... I said interested in how balanced trainers work with their dogs. Nor am I trying to attach fear to the prong or ecollar, simply providing information about their possible misuses. I'm sure many positive only foster homes have also had success rehabilitating aggression cases. Brenda Aloff goes into how to do this positively in her book Aggression in Dogs, and Nicole Wilde also has a great book on the subject. There is much information about how these techniques have been used successfully in both Wilde's and Aloff's books. Also case studies of how these successes happened.


----------



## Blanketback

I taught "Drop it" exclusively with a clicker - reliable in under 5 minutes, and still going strong 2 years later without ever any noncompliance.


----------



## bill

Good post!!Gsdsar. Bill

n.c.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

gsdsar said:


> I honestly don't understand why aversive are so horrible.
> 
> Every human and animal needs to understand that there are consequences to a wrong choice. If a child did something wrong, do you ignore it and only praise them when the did something right? Or do you punish them? Or am I misunderstanding?
> 
> No animal can learn without the benefit if understanding that actions have consequences. If the dog is doing something you don't like, it doesn't mean that the dog is not getting a reward if you don't reward it. The act of doing said bad thing is often a reward in itself.
> 
> There are certain behaviors that I never allow my dog to think about. It's do it, or face serious consequences. Do I start out with corrections, no. I teach first with positive methods. I make it fun. But at some point, the dog MUST come when I say. Or they are in a boat load if trouble. My dog MUST drop when I tell it. This is not negotiable. This will save it's life. I would rather have my dog react because it does not want a correction and be alive than the alternative.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I work in daycare. We are not allowed to punish other people's children. So I use a lot of chocolate and sticker bribes, as well as keeping wandering children in a fence instead of allowing them the choice to wander, as well as a predictable schedule so they know what to expect/do at certain times, singing certain songs to cue them about what is going to happen... The same goes for my dogs. Rhythm and schedule provide discipline.


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## bill

I wonder why cops carry " nite sticks! And not cookies! Bill

n.c.


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> I work in daycare. We are not allowed to punish other people's children. So I use a lot of chocolate and sticker bribes, as well as keeping wandering children in a fence instead of allowing them the choice to wander, as well as a predictable schedule so they know what to expect/do at certain times, singing certain songs to cue them about what is going to happen... The same goes for my dogs. Rhythm and schedule provide discipline.


But....the kids are getting the punishment, just not from you. Most of their life is balanced, except for the time they are at the daycare. What you are doing for those kids at daycare isn't the reason they are well balanced, it's because more than likely, their parents use words like, "no"...they have time out, they have boundaries, rules, consequences, and this carries over (for the most part) into daycare. Never met a parent that singularly uses rhythm and schedule to teach their kids what is unacceptable. You shouldn't use it as a reason to justify your training for dogs, because the kids are most likely getting the "punishment" at home, along with balanced love, affection, rules, etc. 

Besides, dogs aren't human beings. They require more clarity through body language because I can't sit my dog down and explain why running to the street is bad....can't really do that with my two year old, but guess what..a stern "no" and a time out on the front step, taught my son running in the street was bad, not just keeping him away from streets.


----------



## Blanketback

I think you're misunderstanding, GTF. When you say you're not allowed to punish the children, are you including situations like pulling their hands back from broken glass to avoid getting cut, or interrupting one child from pulling another's hair? Or are you thinking only of giving them actual spankings? "Aversives" might not be what you think they are. Maybe you're mixing this up with "compulsion training" and this isn't what we're advocating at all. It's very different.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Oh we use "no". We just can't legally use time out. So privileges must be taken away instead, and sometimes a child has to "take a break" from play on a caregiver's lap while being sung to and held back from hurting someone. Yes, we are allowed to pull a child away from hurting another child, or to stop them from touching something dangerous.


----------



## Chip18

bill said:


> I wonder why cops carry " nite sticks! And not cookies! Bill
> 
> n.c.


LOL, Hmm speeding so... License, Registration and here's a Twinkie..don't do it again??


----------



## bill

Good post also Dani! 
I learned the hard way! Spare the rod spoil the child! So I am more firm with my grand babies!! That I love more than anything!! Sometimes my boys act like spoiled brats!! Lol just kidding!!
You do have too teach right from wrong" or how will they know! Happy easter!! Everyone. Bill

n.c.


----------



## bill

Lol chip 18 Bill

n.c.


----------



## Blanketback

Happy Easter to you too Bill, and everyone! 

GTF, I just saw your edit: "Rhythm and schedule provide discipline." How do you figure that? Establishing a routine isn't going to affect how a dog learns something - other than how to tell time, if the routine never changes. Mine know this, as far as mealtime goes.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Scheduled exercise and training provide discipline in that a tired, often trained dog is less likely to act out. Redirection and time outs and no are also used. Happy Eostre, day of the dawn goddess and harbinger of Spring!


----------



## selzer

glowingtoadfly said:


> I work in daycare. We are not allowed to punish other people's children. So I use a lot of chocolate and sticker bribes, as well as keeping wandering children in a fence instead of allowing them the choice to wander, as well as a predictable schedule so they know what to expect/do at certain times, singing certain songs to cue them about what is going to happen... The same goes for my dogs. Rhythm and schedule provide discipline.


My sister has a very small seven year old, who has a marked behavior response to sugar. Now, when I was a child, we went to church and we went to pre-school or school, and we got candy on Christmas Eve and Valentine's Day at school. They did not give the kids candy on Easter (though we were there) because they figured the family had it covered. 

Pastor's moments NEVER had any type of candy. Sunday school had no candy or treats, though, they often had a coffee hour after the second service. Bible school ALWAYS had a snack and that was usually cookies and Kool-Aid, the only reason we went, I think. 

But, yes, they did have corporal punishment in those days, and while church and SS never had this mentioned, nor did I ever see a kid taken out to be straightened out by The Board of Education from these, they were in school. And yet, it wasn't an every day occurence. They were pretty free with a yardstick in the early years, or a ping pong paddle, they used a donkey tail for tattling, and the older teachers all had their paddles, specially and individually designed with holes in them and contour handles for the best movement and whirring sounds. 

They stationed these right on their chalk tray of their blackboards, and it was never out of sight or out of mind. 

These days they use an awful lot of sugar, and if you have a kid whose behavior becomes markedly obnoxious when you pump sugar into them, it can be a big problem. And if you tell the teacher NOT to give the kids sugar, they act as though you are crippling them. My sister has special non-sugar snacks that she provides the teacher with for her daughter, but it is treated like an imposition, to not be able to give them sugar, chocolate. 

I am not a fan of all that. Kids need to learn that they must behave, and they should not expect a gold nugget every time they manage it. We do not have to go back to the dark ages where kids were strapped for just about everything, but especially with the obesity problem with kids, teachers have to have more in their toolboxes than chocolate.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

selzer said:


> My sister has a very small seven year old, who has a marked behavior response to sugar. Now, when I was a child, we went to church and we went to pre-school or school, and we got candy on Christmas Eve and Valentine's Day at school. They did not give the kids candy on Easter (though we were there) because they figured the family had it covered.
> 
> Pastor's moments NEVER had any type of candy. Sunday school had no candy or treats, though, they often had a coffee hour after the second service. Bible school ALWAYS had a snack and that was usually cookies and Kool-Aid, the only reason we went, I think.
> 
> But, yes, they did have corporal punishment in those days, and while church and SS never had this mentioned, nor did I ever see a kid taken out to be straightened out by The Board of Education from these, they were in school. And yet, it wasn't an every day occurence. They were pretty free with a yardstick in the early years, or a ping pong paddle, they used a donkey tail for tattling, and the older teachers all had their paddles, specially and individually designed with holes in them and contour handles for the best movement and whirring sounds.
> 
> They stationed these right on their chalk tray of their blackboards, and it was never out of sight or out of mind.
> 
> These days they use an awful lot of sugar, and if you have a kid whose behavior becomes markedly obnoxious when you pump sugar into them, it can be a big problem. And if you tell the teacher NOT to give the kids sugar, they act as though you are crippling them. My sister has special non-sugar snacks that she provides the teacher with for her daughter, but it is treated like an imposition, to not be able to give them sugar, chocolate.
> 
> I am not a fan of all that. Kids need to learn that they must behave, and they should not expect a gold nugget every time they manage it. We do not have to go back to the dark ages where kids were strapped for just about everything, but especially with the obesity problem with kids, teachers have to have more in their toolboxes than chocolate.


We use raisins and nuts and/or stickers for those who can't handle sugar


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## bill

Thank you Blanket back!! Bill. P.S.
I thought a harbinger was bad news could be wrong gtf soooo glad for spring! Going too work play with Stahl!! Everyone have a great day! Bill

n.c.


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## glowingtoadfly

Harbinger - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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## Blanketback

Wow, I'd be so pissed if I got a sticker instead of candy!  But seriously, do you notice that these kids that don't get the candy aren't as willing to please?

Have fun out there Bill!


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## bill

Thanks gtf. Bill

n.c.


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## glowingtoadfly

We only have a few who can't have candy, and those on sugar free diets are often very well behaved children


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## selzer

glowingtoadfly said:


> We only have a few who can't have candy, and those on sugar free diets are often very well behaved children


That's because they are on a sugar-free diet. 

I swear, sugar is evil. 

I just gave my sister's kids a basketful.


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