# Buying vs Rescuing?



## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

I kind of hinted at this in a post in a response to a separate thread, but I was wondering what your opinions were about buying vs adopting/rescuing. When I say buying, I'm referring to from a reputable breeder, and you can take rescue however you'd like. 
*
With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog? 
*
I know I struggle with this myself so I was just wondering what your thoughts on the subject where. I bought my Lab and would really like to buy a GSD in the future. We've always rescued dogs in the past and I've been really tempted to rescue a 2nd dog while I've been in vet school (you can only imagine). I'm kind of holding out for my future shepherd though.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't think there needs to be any guilt with buying a dog. I rescued Sasha, but I do want to buy one someday. I won't feel guilty. I rescued this time because A) I didn't have 1200-1500 lying around B) I decided I wanted an adult dog with a known temperament. For me rescuing made sense. In the future I hope to have the money and also I will be wanting a dog for a specific thing. Even if I didn't I wouldn't feel bad about wanting a dog with a sound temperament and thus buying a dog from a good breeder. I love Sasha, but having a dog that's so afraid of fireworks/gunfire that they'll hold it for almost 17hrs so they don't have to go outside is frustrating. I would love a fearless dog. It's all about what you want. No need to feel guilty; you didn't put those dogs in the shelter.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

MegansGrace said:


> *
> With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog?
> *


Absolutely not. For me, guilt is NOT a valid reason to obtain a dog from any source. I have a small home, smaller yard, limited financial resources, and I work full time. Even before personal preferences come into play, these factors alone limit what dogs/types of dogs I can reasonably take on without causing undue stress on the current dogs (and people). For example, one time we looked at adopting a male GSD mix and we really like him but he had pretty bad separation anxiety. How can I be fair to a dog with severe SA when I know I'm going to be gone 8 hours a day? I'm not saying all rescue/adoption cases have problems but many of them do have special considerations. 

I also have to consider that I already have two intact male dogs, both very strong dogs (physically and in their will). They do not tolerate just any dog being thrust into the household. It's safer and less stressful for everyone that I stick with puppies until I'm in a situation where I have the space to integrate adult dogs. My highest priority is always to the current dogs. I'm not going to force them to deal with a new dog because I feel guilty about not taking on that dog. Regardless of where it comes from, if I feel a dog's temperament is not going to fit in my household, I just can't have that dog.

When I get a new dog I'm looking for a very specific temperament. Sometimes a rescue fit, sometimes not. We got Coke from a rescue when we were looking for a very laid back, fun-loving, no drive, social, family pet type dog that was already proven to be reliable in the house (no crating necessary). I bought Pan when I was looking for a working dog with more prey drive, correct size, more of a sport type pedigree.

The most important thing is that if there's not a dog available that meets my criteria I DONT GET A DOG. It's not like a rescue dog dies when I buy a puppy. I don't start with a list of criteria and then keep scratching items off and looking for more dogs if I can't find what I want. I just wait until what I want is available. It's not like I'm purchasing rather than or instead of rescuing. I always look at rescues and shelters first. Most times they don't have what I'm looking for.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

MegansGrace said:


> *With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog? *


You know what you are getting when you adopt an adult dog.

I've never purchased a dog from a reputable breeder and given that my work involves rescue dogs and I foster quite a bit, I suspect it will be a long time before I have the room or option to purchase a dog. That said, I do not judge people who would rather purchase responsibly rather than rescue.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I never thought about feeling guilty. I wanted a GSD and found a breeder and really thought my second GSD would come from a breeder was thinking about number 2 from a breeder and even had the breeder picked out and then a friend called from a shelter and told me about this GSD there. Almost didn't get her because she growled at my current GSD when we went to visit But she came to visit our house and all was fine. I would get a rescue again


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'm not in favor of casual backyard breeding, but it chaps my hide when people say that ANY breeder, no matter how responsible, is killing shelter dogs just by the act of breeding.  So yeah, some people will lay on the guilt if you don't do shelter or rescue adoption.

I personally have done both. Gotten pets from shelters/rescue, and bought purebreds from reputable breeders. And I'd do either one again, depending on the situation. I don't feel guilty for buying from a reputable breeder--if good breeders aren't around, we will no longer have well-bred, purebred dogs... And as much as some breeds need help, I'd hate to see all purebreds go away forever.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Absolutely not. For me, guilt is NOT a valid reason to obtain a dog from any source. I have a small home, smaller yard, limited financial resources, and I work full time. Even before personal preferences come into play, these factors alone limit what dogs/types of dogs I can reasonably take on without causing undue stress on the current dogs (and people). For example, one time we looked at adopting a male GSD mix and we really like him but he had pretty bad separation anxiety. How can I be fair to a dog with severe SA when I know I'm going to be gone 8 hours a day? I'm not saying all rescue/adoption cases have problems but many of them do have special considerations.
> 
> I also have to consider that I already have two intact male dogs, both very strong dogs (physically and in their will). They do not tolerate just any dog being thrust into the household. It's safer and less stressful for everyone that I stick with puppies until I'm in a situation where I have the space to integrate adult dogs. My highest priority is always to the current dogs. I'm not going to force them to deal with a new dog because I feel guilty about not taking on that dog. Regardless of where it comes from, if I feel a dog's temperament is not going to fit in my household, I just can't have that dog.
> 
> ...


This is how I feel. 

Viking is my first dog after years of loving the dogs my family and friends had. I did not want to take on a rescue that could potentialy be from a back yard breeder or have some sort of illness or "baggage". I have rescued animals my _entire_ life, this includes five cats, a horse, and a bird that I nursed to health and took care of when he broke his wing. I was fifteen and used my allowance to pay for a vet to help the bird. I spent three years volunteering at a horse rescue. 

In my experience with animals, I have had and met some amazing rescue animals. I have had rescue pets that are sound in personality and in health. However that being said, I disagree with the "common belief" that mutts are healthier than purebreds. The most depressing illnesses or animal deaths I ever saw were with mutts. Purebred dogs and cats do have their genetic problems, but people have a misconception that purebreds are constantly inbred. Despite having papers that show Viking having no inbred relatives for at least four generations, I know people who refuse to believe that he isn't inbred. Sure, a lot of inbreeding can occur during the development of a breed, but most breeds have been around for so many generations that it's no longer relavent. These people genuinely believe that purebred dogs are less intelligent and inferior to rescue mutts. 

Responsibly bred, purebred dogs are not more susceptible to disease. They are not less intelligent. They are just _dogs_. I don't feel guilty because I bought him instead of rescuing because I know that, if it was the right dog at the right time, I'd rescue in a heartbeat. If anything, the whole shelter vs purebred thing makes me extremely angry because people who adopt their pets use it to think they're better than everyone else. If you truly love animals, you would love them regardless of where they came from. Shelter vs breeder should not matter. Adopting a shelter pet does not mean you love animals more than anybody else. 

The only thing that matters is what is right for *you*.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog?


Guilty - not in the least. I have been involved with rescue for years and am on the BOD for my local Humane Society. When my kids were young we always had one or two pets that were strays that we took in and kept. 

For my working dogs I prefer buying from a breeder whose lines have the temperament and personalities that I need for a specific job. 

And like has already been said - I have no guilt over the dogs in shelters as I didn't put them there and I do the best that I can to educate in the community on responsible dog ownership. I have devoted a chunk of my life and personal finances to help find homes for those in need and that wasn't because of any guilt but a desire to do so. As to "rationalize it" yes I do. I choose what I rescue/adopt/buy based on what my goals and purposes are. 

In my future (3-5 years) I see two dogs - one male GSD purchased as a pup to mainly be an assistance dog (possibly in home only) and working companion with my non-profit activities and one young adult smaller female (breed not decided, possibly mix rescue) for Therapy visits and demo work.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

buying from a reputable or rescuing? i think
both are good choices but i think by rescuing
you're doing more of a service. i've done
both.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

I wouldnt hesitate for one second to spend whatever amount of money required to purchase a dog from a breeder or trainer IF i had a specific goal for the animal in mind, but since I dont have any particular goals for my dog, I just got one from a shelter/rescue, and I couldnt be more pleased with the way everything has turned out.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I think it's all about what dog individually is right for you. I had a rescue WGSD that turned out to be a total disaster. At that point, I decided I wanted to purchase a dog from a breeder to train from scratch, and I knew I wanted a working line because I wanted to pursue SAR. At the time, a rescue just wasn't the right choice for me. Now, I'd certainly take a rescue, because my circumstances, resources, and skills have changed significantly. I'm on the waiting list to adopt a retired military dog, but I would also consider something else. I HATE when people try to make me feel guilty for purchasing Echo... there are pros and cons to both buying and rescuing, and it's all about what's right for you. I grew up with "pound puppy" dobermans, and they were great dogs. I have a breeder-purchased dog, and he's a great dog. It's all about what your circumstances are and what you're looking for in a dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If people have the mentality that buying from a BYB is better than rescue that's a problem.
But going to a responsible breeder isn't a problem.
That said, for "just a pet" dogs (not show or working), I think everyone should look at rescuing as a very viable option. You can save a life and save money as well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't think anyone needs to feel guilty about the choices they make, nor should they feel like they have to rationalize those choices to themselves or others.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I've never thought about buying a dog, even a well bred dog. I simply love adopting. I've taken on a couple of challenging dogs but knew what I was getting into. I've also adopted dogs that were darn new perfect, once we got to know one another and worked together as a team for a while. Rafi is like that. He's amazing; I honestly couldn't ask for a better canine companion. 

I would adopt even if I wanted a dog for a particular sport or to do SAR. It's not guilt for me but simply that I don't see any reason not to adopt a dog when I know the right dog for me is always out there. 

When I first started with dogs I always adopted puppies but after raising my own and several fosters I decided that I preferred adopting adults since they were more of a known quantity. I thought I would miss the puppy stage but since I tend to choose high drive dogs I did not have to miss the puppy stage at all (except for the peeing everywhere and chewing everything stuff). :crazy:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, I've felt a twinge of guilt or two when looking/opting to purchase from a (good) breeder.

Then I remind myself how many cats, dogs and horses I've helped/adopted/fostered in the past. How many donations I've made to rescues and then I don't worry about it.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> You know what you are getting when you adopt an adult dog.
> 
> I've never purchased a dog from a reputable breeder and given that my work involves rescue dogs and I foster quite a bit, I suspect it will be a long time before I have the room or option to purchase a dog. That said, I do not judge people who would rather purchase responsibly rather than rescue.


I agree, with an adult dog you know what you're getting.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I bought my first dog and I do feel guilty. I will never buy a dog again because I know there are so many great dogs out there in need of rescue. However, ironically, I don't judge people who do want to buy a dog. Ok maybe I do a little. Sorry just being honest.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If people have the mentality that buying from a BYB is better than rescue that's a problem.
> But going to a responsible breeder isn't a problem.
> That said, for "just a pet" dogs (not show or working), I think everyone should look at rescuing as a very viable option. You can save a life and save money as well.


I agree 100% with this post.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

_I'm a breeder, buyer and have rescued......_
No one should ever feel guilty in the choices of "ownership".....
Giving ANY animal a well deserved, loving, responsible home....is ALL that should matter.....not on "how" one obtains the animal....JMHO.


ETA: The final decision of ownership should come from your head as well as your heart.
An owner should "choose" the path to ownership from *their own* conscience....and do what they feel is right for them, ignoring judgement from others. *It is a commitment, and one *they* must/should live with.*


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

ladyfreckles said:


> I agree 100% with this post.


 
I 100% agree with this part of the post 
"I think everyone should look at rescuing as a very viable option. You can save a life and save money as well."

And in my case a lot of work  Transitioning my adult rescue into my home was soooo much easier than my puppy . But I love them both.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it really depends on what you are looking for. My next dog will be from a breeder, a working line breeder. I want to stack the deck in my favor to do the sports I want to do. HE will be with my adopted from a shelter, Jax. I will probably always have an adopted dog. Never again will I buy from a BYB. Have two of those here now and neither are stable.

I don't think anyone needs to feel guilty for buying from a good breeder.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm for what people feel is the best fit for them. No need to feel guilty. As others have said, getting a rescue out of guilt is not a good reason to get one - people get rescues because they WANT a rescue, but if you want something else, that is fine too, as long as you choose a responsible breeder. 

My first two dogs were rescues. Took my chances, adopting from the pound, but that is what I wanted to do. I felt that I had a good home and a lot of love to offer to an unwanted dog, and in return will get companionship and a new friend. I sure didn't want to _buy_ a dog when so many deserving, wonderful dogs were discarded and unwanted due to no fault of their own. I felt very strongly that buying a dog only created a spot for breeding and selling of more dogs, and the large majority of said dogs would end up in shelters anyways, most euthanized, few adopted. In my mind, when I thought about people breeding dogs, I was thinking of BYB, people breeding their pets. The world of responsible, pedigreed, working and performance dog breeding was in a different stratosphere of my understanding, and didn't come into the equation, because how many people get dogs from such breeders? I knew of no one. 

For me, the right thing to do was to rescue, because that is what I wanted to do, not because I felt guilty. Later on, I got introduced to Schutzhund, well-bred GSDs or working temperament, and I was hooked, and knew that such a dog had a place in my future, and though surprised at the turn-around in my thinking, did go ahead and purchased a dog from a responsible breeder, still today somewhat surprised that I have made that decision (and the best decision ever :wub:, ). 

Did not feel guilty, I wanted something specific, for a specific reason, with specific goals in mind, and from a very specific type of background and breeding (as opposed to general pet dog breeding), so that is what I got. I have no idea if my next dog will be a rescue or another dog purchased from a breeder, but my decision will be based on what I feel is the right thing to do for me, at that time.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

My GSD is a rescue and my Doberman is from an ethical breeder. I will continue to support both in the future. I am passionately involved in dog rescue, but I am also a level-headed and rational human being and understand how important ethical breeders are and what they do for the dog world and the very welfare of the breeds we so love. 

Ethical breeders and ethical rescues operate much in the same way. Both have spay/neuter and other contracts in place to protect the dog/lines. Both do thorough checks to ensure the dog is going to the best possible home. Both provide 110% support. 

Purchasing a puppy from an ethical breeder has been one of the best decisions I have made and I would never regret it. I have lost a couple "friends" in rescue over it(especially with my dog being cropped), but that's their personal problem, not mine. I have noticed that there has been such a big uproar about adopting and rescuing animals, more than ever before it seems(more people are becoming educated and that is great!). It is getting to the point though where I have noticed people(like me) who purchase dogs from ethical breeders and who keep some of them intact(mine is show) are getting somewhat bullied it seems for that choice. Rescue nuts need to step off. Most of them only see one way and that is sad. Purchasing a dog from an ethical breeder is EXTREMELY different than supporting a BYB.

btw many ethical breeders and breed clubs also support their breed rescue.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Mac's Mom said:


> I agree, with an adult dog you know what you're getting.


Not necessarily. We adopted an adult who was very sick, and his personality was not clear at all. Months of medical care later, his real personality came through, and he was a fear biter. Our rescue dog ended up costing at least twice as much as the dogs we bought from a good breeder, and the rescue dog still died. I can't tell you how heartbreaking that was and still is. My husband refuses to go through that again, so our next dog will come from the same breeder from whom we have gotten two other great dogs. We told this breeder what we want, and the dogs we have gotten from him have been exactly that, perfect dogs just what I wanted.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> If people have the mentality that buying from a BYB is better than rescue that's a problem.
> But going to a responsible breeder isn't a problem.
> That said, for "just a pet" dogs (not show or working), I think everyone should look at rescuing as a very viable option. *You can save a life and save money as well.*



I used to agree with this mentality before I was introduced to the world of ethical breeding. However, I now very well understand the reasoning for people wanting to purchase even a pet quality dog from a breeder. With rescue dogs, health is a gamble. It is no secret that GSDs are a breed riddled with some health problems, mostly dysplasia. If cost is a factor for some people, it could actually be more beneficial to purchase a well-bred dog from parents who have been genetically health tested and a breeder who has guarantees when it comes to health problems. This way the odds are more stacked in your favor and you have a better idea of how the pup will turn out. Through my work in GSD rescue over the years, I have seen many dogs come through the program who have needed hip surgery, sometimes total hip replacements.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

asja said:


> Not necessarily. We adopted an adult who was very sick, and his personality was not clear at all. Months of medical care later, his real personality came through, and he was a fear biter. Our rescue dog ended up costing at least twice as much as the dogs we bought from a good breeder, and the rescue dog still died. I can't tell you how heartbreaking that was and still is. My husband refuses to go through that again, so our next dog will come from the same breeder from whom we have gotten two other great dogs. We told this breeder what we want, and the dogs we have gotten from him have been exactly that, perfect dogs just what I wanted.


I see your point. I'm so sorry you're dog died. That is heartbreaking. I've spent more on vet bills this year than if I would have spent on buying from a breeder. But my dog is healthy, happy and a constant joy. I wasn't thinking about it from the other point of view. I'm sorry.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I wish people would stop assuming GSDs are fraught or "riddled" with dysplasia. 
Yes they can have it but no more than Labs and Goldens. I forget what the top breed afflicted with dysplasia is today but it's not GSDs. Not to mention, every breed can have it- Pugs are the worst on OFA right now, there's not one passing Pug on there!

And yes, if you get a dog from a good breeder the chance of health issues is lessened but not non-existent. And probably only slightly worse than rescuing.

To imply rescues are sickly or prone to bone/joint issues is doing rescue a disservice.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

asja said:


> Not necessarily. We adopted an adult who was very sick, and his personality was not clear at all. Months of medical care later, his real personality came through, and he was a fear biter. Our rescue dog ended up costing at least twice as much as the dogs we bought from a good breeder, and the rescue dog still died. I can't tell you how heartbreaking that was and still is. My husband refuses to go through that again, so our next dog will come from the same breeder from whom we have gotten two other great dogs. We told this breeder what we want, and the dogs we have gotten from him have been exactly that, perfect dogs just what I wanted.


You also got a dog straight from a shelter who had a bad case of HW. I tihnk if he'd been healthier you'd have seen issues prior to that.
Rescuing straight from a shelter is riskier than adopting a dog from a foster home where it's been living with people and you know (better) the temperament.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> And yes, if you get a dog from a good breeder the chance of health issues is lessened but not non-existent. And probably only slightly worse than rescuing.


What I don't think most people understand is that just getting a dog from a good breeder doesn't say much about health. If health is a priority, it's up to that person to research health in various lines, and then go to a breeder producing those lines and with the same set of priorities. Believe it or not there are many people out there (including myself) for whom health is not THE top priority. We can't assume that every half-decent breeder out there has the same priorities we do. Some people think that breeders breeding anything short of OFA Excellent are destroying the breed.

It's just another example that illustrates how we get what we get out of our dogs what we put in as owners. That does not just apply after we've obtained the dog, but the research up front.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> I wish people would stop assuming GSDs are fraught or "riddled" with dysplasia.
> Yes they can have it but no more than Labs and Goldens. I forget what the top breed afflicted with dysplasia is today but it's not GSDs. Not to mention, every breed can have it- Pugs are the worst on OFA right now, there's not one passing Pug on there!
> 
> And yes, if you get a dog from a good breeder the chance of health issues is lessened but not non-existent. And probably only slightly worse than rescuing.
> ...


No one is assuming, the breed IS very prone to dysplasia, there is no arguing that. Ethical breeders would not OFA the hips and elbows if it wasn't a problem in the breed. We are also discussing GSDs here, not other breeds, of course other breeds and mutts can come down with hip and elbow issues.

I never stated that the health issues are non-existent with dogs from breeders, I said that the odds are more stacked in your favor when it comes to health. I would not go as far to say that the margin for health is only slightly better between dogs from ethical breeders and rescue dogs. Ethical breeders study pedigrees, longevity, health, and temperament. They don't do all of that for ***** and giggles. If not to better the breed, then there is no good justification for breeding. 

I never stated that rescue dogs are sickly and prone to bone and joint issues. I stated that because the genetic history of a shelter or rescue dog is unknown, it is more of a gamble when it comes to health. Someone who is considering adoption because cost is a factor needs to understand that. The point of adoption is to save a life, some people choose adoption though because they cannot afford the breeder prices. Sometimes those people end up more in the hole because their rescue dog needs new hips or what have you.

I am not personally attacking rescue dogs as you are implying. I have been doing rescue for 7 years now and have a rescue dog myself. Not everyone wants a rescue dog and that is ok.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> *What I don't think most people understand is that just getting a dog from a good breeder doesn't say much about health.* If health is a priority, it's up to that person to research health in various lines, and then go to a breeder producing those lines and with the same set of priorities. Believe it or not there are many people out there (including myself) for whom health is *not* a top priority. We can't assume that every half-decent breeder out there has the same priorities we do.
> 
> It's just another example that illustrates how we get what we get out of our dogs what we put in as owners. That does not just apply after we've obtained the dog, but the research up front.


:thumbup:

This breed is no more "prone" to dysplasia than (many) other breeds. People just think that because of the overangulation some folks breed for - people see that and think the dog is dysplastic. 

FTR, we've owned 4 rescued GSDs now and none had hip issues. Other issues yes, but not hip issues.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly, you cannot rule HD in or out without x-ray analysis.

My rescue mutt has decent hips. The femoral heads could be smoother but the coverage is good, they are pretty well seated. He is definitely not HD. X-rays look good for a large breed dog of his age and unknown pedigree (I don't even know what breeds he's mixed with). My WGSL is OFA Good. My WGWL has a-stamps pending but is not HD either. Of the three, the show line has the best hips, possibly even OFA Excellent if it weren't for another anatomical problem that prevents him from being perfectly positioned for the best possible picture and reading.

But, I'd rather have a nice working dog with a solid temperament and OFA borderline or mild any day over a shy, nervy dog with excellent hips.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Amen to that (shy/nervy). Behavioral issues are far more of a problem, IMO.

If someone wishes to adopt a dog (for instance) they find in a rescue and hips are very important (let's say the dog has no visible signs/symptoms of dysplasia) I'd suggest they offer to pay for x-rays because rescues never have spare money to do x-rays on a healthy dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am not against rescue, in fact I check my local animal shelters all the time searching for dogs and cats that look/sound like they will fit several of my friends and family members. I have actually found alot of dogs and cats for my friends and family through rescue. I even rescued 2 of my cats.

I would rescue though, but most likely only a puppy or a young dog, preferably a Border Collie mix or a Australian Shepherd mix but my next dog will be a Dalmatian and it is very important to get a Dal from a very reputable breeder because byb's have caused them to have lots of health and temperment issues.

I love when people rescue.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> This breed is no more "prone" to dysplasia than (many) other breeds. People just think that because of the overangulation some folks breed for - people see that and think the dog is dysplastic.


No one is comparing them to other breeds. We are discussing GSDs here. I am merely saying that SINCE shepherds ARE prone to dysplasia, it is beneficial to support breeders who OFA certify, if someone is wanting to go the breeder route. It is a crap-shoot with rescue dogs unless the rescue has the dog's hips x-rayed, you won't know what you're getting.



msvette2u said:


> FTR, we've owned 4 rescued GSDs now and none had hip issues. Other issues yes, but not hip issues.


Consider yourself lucky. The dogs that have come through our rescue who have needed hip surgeries have all been diagnosed by x-rays, of course. Maybe Houston just has a bad case of backyard breeders.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> If someone wishes to adopt a dog (for instance) they find in a rescue and hips are very important (let's say the dog has no visible signs/symptoms of dysplasia) I'd suggest they offer to pay for x-rays because rescues never have spare money to do x-rays on a healthy dog.



I agree with that. Many times when I am on a home visit, the hip question pops up. I tell them the only way they can know for sure is to have the dog's hips x-rayed because generally the rescue does not do that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Houston just has a bad case of poor breeders. 
We've never had a GSD come through with bad hips - wait - yes, one did but hers was environmental, she was kept kenneled and never exercised, just crammed in a kennel most her short life. 
But we've had others come through that are NOT GSDs and had health issues beyond hips. One Pug came through with no hip sockets at all. None. That's dysplasia!!
And many knee issues as well. 

I'm just saying that this breed is no more prone than other breeds - if you looked at studies you'd see that, so...basically there's no more chance you'll rescue a GSD with hip issues than any other breed.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

personally I've done it all. I have rescued, bought from BYB before knowing better, taken in strays, fostered, and bought from a reputable breeder. Personally I prefer buying from a reputable breeder and refuse to let anyone make me feel guilty for it. I'm done plenty of rescue work in my time and when people get on me for buying from a breeder I just shut them down and walk away I will not sit here and defend my decision, rationalize it, or allow someone to attempt to make me feel guilty for it. I feel bad for those on death row and that lead horrible lives but its not because of me or reputable breeders so I wont personally feel "guilty" for it. Feeling bad/sad for them and guilty are 2 very different things in my book. I have Jinx (from a reputable breeder) and currently also foster. I plan in the future to buy another pup from my current breeder (very distant future lol) but in the mean time I foster and help however I can however when I do decide it's time for the second pup to come home I will stop (unless I'm living somewhere I can have more then 2 dogs) and I will not feel guilty about it. I'm also careful what I bring into my home because I will not bring an illness into my home that will stay here and cause issues with a future pup or put Jinx at risk even though shes older and not AS susceptible. I really think it's a personal choice however if you want to stack the odds in your favor with a puppy and decide to purchase a well bred pup even if its just for a family pet I say go for it and don't let anyone try to talk you out of it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I agree with that. Many times when I am on a home visit, the hip question pops up. I tell them the only way they can know for sure is to have the dog's hips x-rayed because generally the rescue does not do that.


I'd say if the dog was showing obvious signs of something being wrong in it's back end, and it's in rescue, it's legitimate to do the X-rays but as with anything, we don't run off and do x-rays on dogs with no obvious symptoms, or tests on dogs for no reason at all.

People are amazingly uneducated and (for example) we've had parvo puppies and someone will inevitably write and ask if they've "been re-tested for parvo" to "make sure it's gone".
We're like...Um...if the dog lived, it's gone. 
*sigh*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's many people out there who do not distinguish between a good breeder and a bad one, or puppy mills and good breeders.
I have explained to people who think "all breeding" is bad, that there's good and bad ones. They really do not understand and that may be why you get people trying to guilt you.

I have no issue with good and ethical breeders who are breeding with a goal in mind, not ones out there throwing males and females together because they have them, or want to make puppies. Those are people too lazy to show their dogs (or their dog isn't a show-able dogs) or otherwise title them to at least prove their dogs have something to contribute to the gene pool of course (SORRY that's going so far OT)


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> I'd say if the dog was showing obvious signs of something being wrong in it's back end, and it's in rescue, it's legitimate to do the X-rays but as with anything, we don't run off and do x-rays on dogs with no obvious symptoms, or tests on dogs for no reason at all.
> 
> People are amazingly uneducated and (for example) we've had parvo puppies and someone will inevitably write and ask if they've "been re-tested for parvo" to "make sure it's gone".
> We're like...Um...if the dog lived, it's gone.
> *sigh*



Yup!

It'd be nice to run all those genetic tests on rescue dogs but that isn't practical for most non-profits. The point of rescue anyway is to save a life, not find a champion dog. I try to remind that point to some of the people who inquire with us about finding cheap purebred dogs. They are not going to find perfection, a lot(not all of course) of these dogs have baggage and stories, and sad ones!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh yeah I could go on all day as you could I am sure.
When we had the litter of puppies, I skipped the people altogether who would write and say "What can you tell me about the parents", when the bio said we didn't know mom or dad, never saw either but the mother died 2 days after the pups arrived...etc...
For those people, ethical/good breeders exist 

But back to the original thread - if people want a well-bred, proven/health tested dog, you won't find it in rescue but you sure as heck won't find it on craigslist either!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The breed is very prone to HD. However, there are many dogs coming from reputable breeders who end up with HD or ED or some other serious health problem. Just read the health section on this board sometime. I know people who have paid a lot of money for their gsd and the dog has ended up with serious health problems. You may be able to stack the deck in your favor but you can never guarantee an individual dog's health. 

There are also dogs from reputable breeders who have serious behavioral problems. In many cases it's the handler and not the dog but the dog does end up with a problem and some of these dogs end up (at best) back with the breeder or dumped in shelters or with rescues. 

However, there are tons of dogs in rescue who are absolutely wonderful dogs with great temperaments and decent health. You just have to do your research, same as you do with a breeder.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

ALL of my current pets - three cats and a dog - and ALL of my previous pets have been rescues, either from the shelter, or from rescue, or from Craig's List.

That said, I am planning to purchase a puppy this summer. (Litter is supposed to be bred in April.) I am purchasing a pup because I know what I'm looking for in a dog and what I want to do with the dog, and I'm ready to start a puppy, not another adult. 

I do not feel guilty spending $1000+ on a puppy. At all.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

MegansGrace said:


> *
> With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog?
> *


No, I didn't feel guilty for buying Tanner. I paid a great deal of money for him, and I figured that I was buying the experience and knowledge of his breeder as well as Tanner himself. I wanted some specific traits.

So I went ahead and bought a puppy, even though at the time I ran the foster program for a large animal shelter and was very involved in GSD rescue in addition to my work at the shelter.

I don't think anyone should ever feel guilty for getting what they want and need. That being said, I do believe that many people can get their needs met through adopting from a reputable shelter or rescue. When my needs were met through adoption, that was the way I went.
Sheilah


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have / had both. I've rescued and I've bought. I would have no problem rescuing again if it was a dog/puppy I was interested in. I am also sure I will buy again.

Talking about Hd/Ed, in all the dogs I've had/have, knock on wood I have never had one with with hips/elbows that hadn't passed. 

However, there are far worse things in my opinion than bad hips or elbows, like epi, sibo, dogs frought with allergies, DM, mega, the list goes on. Honestly, I'd rather have a dog with rotten hips than have to deal with the other stuff. Thankfully I've never really had to deal with that stuff either.

and no I don't think anyone should feel guilty about where they've gotten their dogs


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Sorry if this was already brought up, don't have time to fully read each post.

If someone tells me that I should rescue instead of buying my next German Shepherd because buying means dogs in the shelters die...

I simply ask "Do you have children" if they say yes, I ask "Did you have them naturally". If they say yes, I ask "Do you feel guilty for having children when there are so many homeless children, children in orphanages, and children abused in foster homes?"

This shuts up everyone. I used to argue "i dont want a fearful dog again, blah blah blah". Now I just say this and they see the common sense. 

I could argue that rescuing supports BYB but I'm not going to because it is just as dumb as the claim that buying from breeders is bad.

If breeders stopped breeding, eventually we would have little to no purebred dogs because everyone would breed their PB to a rescue because there were no more PBs to breed with.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Here is my personal feeling, having done both a rescue and buying from a breeder. I will set aside all consideration of health and temperament (because if I am going to bring a dog into my life, I am going to love him no matter what he is like and no matter how healthy he is). I want to be with him for as much time as possible. These animals are only with us for a short time, and I want to be there for as much of it as possible. Therefore, I want that puppy as soon as he's ready to leave his littermates, at 8 weeks old. It's really challenging to get a puppy that age from a rescue, since those are the ones that everyone wants. Not saying it's impossible, but if I go the route of a breeder, I get my puppy at eight weeks old guaranteed.

I also refuse to let other people make me feel guilty for either choice, breeder or rescue.


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## Magnolia (Jul 18, 2011)

I have four pets in my home at the moment. The oldest was found starving at a deer camp and brought to me. The next came from a no kill shelter. The third was a pure bread Great Dane at a kill shelter. Then I purchased my GSD from a good breeder. All of them were the right pet at the right time and all were good choices. I've never felt guilty about how I came to bring any animal into our family. I alter my pets to be sure I don't contribute to the shelter population. I think that's my only obligation since I'm not willing to do the work of a responsible breeder.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Just speaking for myself, I find it and inappropriate when people compare having kids to buying a dog - really not the same thing.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

MegansGrace said:


> *With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog? *


Not in the least. I don't believe in the whole "if your not part of the solution then you're part of the problem" mentality.

My next GSD is going to be a long haired dark sable female with outstanding temperament. I already have a couple breeders in mind and we're talking 5+ years down the road and I'm not in a hurry.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I have rescued all of my dogs to this date. I say that I rescued Aiden because he was returned to the breeder around 3 months old, riddled with Giardia and a load of behavioral issues. I bought him for $250 back from the breeder, under a contract that I would continue with Schutzhund training. 

That being said, I will be purchasing my next dog from a reputable working line breeder. And I will not feel guilty about it. Aiden is the love of my life and is everything to me, but he has had so many problems since day one. They are all behavioral, which I attribute to the lack of effort from his first owner, but I am 100% certain that by going through a good breeder, I will be able to avoid problems like this in the future. I want a dog bred for Schutzhund specifically, and I want to raise the puppy as a working dog. 

I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty about either choice.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I felt guilty when my DH bought Onyx from a BYB. I wish he would have researched more, or went with a rescue if I'd known he was getting us a puppy. Clover the present dog was a rescue I got at 8 weeks. 
After my DH's "surprise", I 'rescued' Kacie....to balance out my guilt! Because I was always for the rescues.
Because neither one of the females had the temperament to do sportwork, I decided to go with a well bred dog, and had no guilt whatsoever that I didn't rescue, and supported a responsible breeder instead. 

I fostered a dog while waiting for the pup. I do miss fostering, but with my current pack it isn't doable.
At this time, I'd rather pull a dog from a shelter myself than pay a rescue to do the vetting/ socializing. That is probably how my next dog will come into my life, but not for awhile!


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for ALL your responses! I think I'm made to feel guilty because I'm in such a "don't shop, adopt" kind of atmosphere being in vet school. I'm by no means against rescue, but my family has ended up with both great dogs, and some dogs that have been had problems that we didn't know we were getting ourselves into (behavioral, etc.). If I'm going to get a GSD, I'd really like to get one from a reputable breeder so I shouldn't feel guilty about that. I think others just try to make me feel guilty about wanting a particular type of dog.

I got my Lab from a BYB before I knew enough. I've been really lucky with him. We're working through some minor anxiety issues with a behaviorist but he's a solid healthy dog besides that. With a GSD, I'd really like to find an ethical, reputable breeder. 

Thanks again for all your opinions!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This has been a good thread but I hope people aren't buying vs. adopting due to fear of "behavioral and other problems". Because I'm hearing that a lot


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Just speaking for myself, I find it and inappropriate when people compare having kids to buying a dog - really not the same thing.


It's not, but it is the closest adoption/rescue analogy I can think of. I have yet to see someone judge a person for not adopting their own kids, but I have met dozens of people who, the second you _don't_ adopt an abused/stray dog and buy instead, think you're this awful person. Whether or not you adopt should not affect how people perceive your personality.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What I find endearing is when a breeder will help with rescue/evaluating/placing or whatever. 
I respect them that much more if they help with either transport/foster or anything to help shelter dogs go to forever homes. I know it may be risky to bring a shelter dog into their property, though. Even cross-posting on their website now and then a dog in need of a forever home, is enough for me to respect them more! 
I transported a dog to a small hobby breeder for her to foster, and it was so nice that she was willing to do that. She ran a boarding kennel as well, so was set up to isolate the foster from her breeding dogs. Another one saved....


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I could argue that rescuing supports BYB


How on earth could you make that connection?!


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> How on earth could you make that connection?!


Well, one could argue that puppy mills are more likely to have their puppies ending up in shelters than responsible breeders. I do know that a certain local breeder had too many litters at once and didn't sell them all and dropped them at the humane society. But you're not really supporting them or giving the breeder money by adopting puppies they gave away for free...


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> Well, one could argue that puppy mills are more likely to have their puppies ending up in shelters than responsible breeders. I do know that a certain local breeder had too many litters at once and didn't sell them all and dropped them at the humane society. *But you're not really supporting them* or giving the breeder money by adopting puppies they gave away for free...


Yes, it is likely the puppy mill and BYB dogs end up in shelters more however adopting those dogs from shelters or rescues _does not_ support the producers of the dogs.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think it's a personal decision. I have no problem with buying from a reputable breeder versus a rescue dog. There are good reasons to do both. Most good breeders I know also are involved in rescue as well.
All my previous dogs were rescues (mostly strays) but I was looking into buying a puppy from a breeder for my next dog. I ended up getting Bianca instead, from her previous owners who got her from a breeder (good bloodlines, health testing, etc)...


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

i bought dia from a great breeder. I actually do community service at the local animal shelter, they knew i was getting her and were not degrading me for not rescuing one.. they said i do enough for those dogs and understand. I was so relieved by that. i have had rescues, but i could not handle the heartbreak anymore with not knowing the genetic history


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I applaud everyone that rescues a dog. I really do.

Personally, I bought every one of my dogs. I was looking for a certain thing in my dogs...and I spent my money on what I wanted.

I don't ever feel guilty on spending my money on dogs.. Other people try to make me feel that way.....but the good thing about being an adult.......you can do with your money what you want to.

I never apologize for how I spend my money.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MegansGrace said:


> I kind of hinted at this in a post in a response to a separate thread, but I was wondering what your opinions were about buying vs adopting/rescuing. When I say buying, I'm referring to from a reputable breeder, and you can take rescue however you'd like.
> *
> With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog?
> *
> I know I struggle with this myself so I was just wondering what your thoughts on the subject where. I bought my Lab and would really like to buy a GSD in the future. We've always rescued dogs in the past and I've been really tempted to rescue a 2nd dog while I've been in vet school (you can only imagine). I'm kind of holding out for my future shepherd though.


I did not read the whole thread, just this post. 

Whether you you purchase your dog from a reputable breeder or from a good rescue or from a pound, or if you rescue a stray and try to find the owner but end up keeping the dog, or if you rescue the dog from a friend or family member who is unable to provide proper care, you should not have to rationalize your decision to add a member to your household. You may use the term adopt, even for a dog that is from a breeder because you are adopting a family member, it should not matter how much money has changed hands.

What the AR movement has done with the adoption terminology has made it somehow more acceptable to go to a pound or a rescue than to go to a breeder. Sometimes people go to pounds or rescues to get a dog that costs less, plain and simple, but they are now heroes for rescuing their dog and they can call it adoption rather than a purchase. While the individual who spends more than a year researching lines and finding a breeder, is somehow a fiend for purchasing their dog from a breeder. 

I think it is somewhere between terribly silly and rather disturbing to think that someone should have to justify how they obtain their dog. And no one should feel better or worse than another for that reason. We might preach about not purchasing from pet stores or BYBs because that money goes into encouraging them to continue to keep animals in bad conditions, breeding indiscriminately; but the fact of the matter is that those people are pretty much here to stay, and if decent breeders cave and quit breeding then we leave the breed to the scum of the earth. 

I do not generally talk about dogs I have rescued as it is no one's business, really. I am not looking for people to pat me on the back and tell me what a good person I am. I don't think you do something like that for what people think of you. A rescued dog is no less a dog, and a purchased dog is no more or less a dog. _They_ do not have a problem with how they entered their family, whether they were rescued or purchased or born on the premesis. It is we the humans that make too much of it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I do not generally talk about dogs I have rescued as it is no one's business, really. I am not looking for people to pat me on the back and tell me what a good person I am. I don't think you do something like that for what people think of you.


I don't think anyone is out for pats on backs when they are out to get a companion. After all, it is about the welfare of the dogs, not what others think. Regardless of getting a shelter dog, rescue dog, byb dog or well bred dog, that dog will hopefully live with you for several years and be a happy tail wagging dog.
The initial cost of the dog is minimal no matter where it comes from compared to adding in the lifelong maintenance, vetting and training.
I agree with you Selzer, the word 'adoption' has become an AR buzzword.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't think anyone needs to feel guilty about the choices they make, nor should they feel like they have to rationalize those choices to themselves or others.


I agree.

The way I see it, no matter if you go to a breeder, shelter or "rescue" you are STILL "buying" the pup/dog!!!! If you are paying money for it, you are BUYING it. Seems to me like the term "adopting" is used to make some people feel better. (Or an attempt to make others feel bad.)

I have gotten all of my GSDs from breeders as baby puppies. I want something specific when I get one, so that its what I get.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> The way I see it, no matter if you go to a breeder, shelter or "rescue" you are STILL "buying" the pup/dog!!!! If you are paying money for it, you are BUYING it. Seems to me like the term "adopting" is used to make some people feel better. *(Or an attempt to make others feel bad.)*


This. Sometimes it's both. I have friends who adopt all their pets to feel better about buying designer brand things that are made by sweatshops. They also use it to talk down to people.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I adopted my first dog 24 years ago and it was called adopting back then too. It's not a new term. 

I have seen lots of people saying they "adopted" dogs that they bought from breeders and also seen breeders advertising using the term "adoption." 

I have seen far more nasty posts about rescuing and complaining about rescues and dogs people have rescued than about breeding, breeders and dogs that people have purchased. 

To be perfectly honest, I feel like rescued dogs are held in far less esteem on the gsd boards than dogs from reputable breeders, or breeders who people know from these boards. They are in the same category as byb dogs with unknown pedigrees. 

People often refer to rescues as something like a crap shoot b/c their genetics are (often but not always) unknown. However, neither breeding nor genetics is not an exact science so you don't always get exactly what you think you're getting when you buy a puppy. 

Anyway, it's threads like these (and the nasty racist and homophobic comments in Chat) that often cause me to take a break from the boards. 

In fact, I'm going to take the two throwaway dogs (do you like that term better?) who are currently hanging out in my living room and go for an off leash walk in the snow.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I know somebody who spent a great deal of time researching breeders so that she can have a healthy dog with no hip dysplasia. So she found one and paid a lot of money for the puppy. Well, one of the parents was a golden the other a lab, both health tested show dogs with good hips. and the breeder was very reputable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm really unsure why people are getting upset over how the word "adoption" is being used. 

Perhaps this part of the what Sue said was missed...it's a pretty important part..



> A rescued dog is no less a dog, and a purchased dog is no more or less a dog. _They_ do not have a problem with how they entered their family, whether they were rescued or purchased or born on the premesis. It is we the humans that make too much of it.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

BowWowMeow said:


> I adopted my first dog 24 years ago and it was called adopting back then too. It's not a new term.
> 
> I have seen lots of people saying they "adopted" dogs that they bought from breeders and also seen breeders advertising using the term "adoption."
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I have rescued and purchased from reputable breeders. I felt guilty at first many years ago when I bought my first dog from a breeder because at the time I was heavily involved in rescue/shelter work and had always rescued my pets before. My fellow shelter coworkers did not get why I was sending money to an "evil breeder" for a puppy when I could just adopt one instead. For me over the last several years I decided that if I wanted a pet and one that would solely be a pet with no other purpose in mind that I would rescue a dog. If I wanted a dog I could do something with competitively then I would go to a breeder. I have done that more recently and now the number of breeder acquired dogs outnumbers the number of rescued dogs in my home. I would like to show in conformation and obedience because I love both. Can't do the conformation part with a rescued dog and since my eventual goal is to *hopefully* breed then that also excludes rescued dogs. Not sure if that goal will ever come to be realized, but I'm trying!


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I adopted my first dog 24 years ago and it was called adopting back then too. It's not a new term.
> 
> I have seen lots of people saying they "adopted" dogs that they bought from breeders and also seen breeders advertising using the term "adoption."
> 
> ...


I think part of the reason they're held in less esteem on here is because many of the people who are on these forums have purebred German Shepherds and probably have to take **** about it on a daily basis from people who think breeders shouldn't exist. Being put on the defensive all the time can make people lash out. They come on here already having a sour taste in their mouth.

I don't think rescues are throw-away dogs. My rescue cats are not throw-away cats. I love them very much and I wouldn't trade them for any purebred cat in the world.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

selzer said:


> I did not read the whole thread, just this post.
> 
> Whether you you purchase your dog from a reputable breeder or from a good rescue or from a pound, or if you rescue a stray and try to find the owner but end up keeping the dog, or if you rescue the dog from a friend or family member who is unable to provide proper care, you should not have to rationalize your decision to add a member to your household. You may use the term adopt, even for a dog that is from a breeder because you are adopting a family member, it should not matter how much money has changed hands.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. 

I was recently attacked publicly on another forum (a running one, no less) for buying my GSD from an _evil breeder when there are dogs dying EVERY DAY _in shelters and rescues. This person was supposed to be my "friend" and had recently lost 2 different jobs and decided to become a dog trainer, the job she'd always wanted. She started volunteering at a local shelter at the same time I was getting Rocket and then it began.

She went on and on about how "people like me" were the reason for puppy mills and diseases such as HD (as if mixes don't have health problems) and bad temperaments. She ended with a sentence about how _she_ couldn't _afford_ a dog like mine, but OH WAIT, _she_ was going home with a _purebred_ Dog de Bordeaux that _she _only paid $100 for from the _shelter._ Oh, and he was going blind, and that's why he was in the shelter, because _people like me who buy from a breeder would've rejected him since he wasn't perfect. _

Out of the 8 animals I've owned over the last 20 years, only two were bought from a breeder (and one was bought for a minimal fee as a 2 year old, who needed a new home), including Rocket. The rest were rescues or from the shelter. I've always advocated shelters, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in breeders. Obviously, since I'm the proud owner of a "purchased, purebred" GSD. I think if there were ONLY excellent, responsible breeders the need for shelters would be minimal. IMHO people like her make it harder for everyone concerned. I think many first time dog owners are guilted into adopting and/or misled into thinking they can handle _any _dog from a shelter, when in reality if the shelter or rescue is not a decent one, with trained and knowledgeable staffers, it could be a match made in H#ll. Many, many dogs there are very fine animals, but there are also dogs there that have had owners who have dropped them off with a host of serious --fixable, possibly, but still serious-- issues, or borderline temperaments likely made worse by uneducated "training" .

(As a side note, she ended up returning the dog a month later after the 4th bite--this time, in the head and face, requiring stitches to her head and by her eye. She's lucky it wasn't worse. )


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

It depends what fits YOU!

Personally, my golden retriever came from the best breeder here in FL. I got her in 1997 as an 8 week old puppy. She was the best dog I ever owned and I loved her to death. At that time though, we were looking for a healthy, active, family pet that I would grow up with and train myself. (I begged for 2 years straight!) So, a breeder pup was what my parents thought was best. And it was. However, we rescued a lot of animals growing up and they were all fantastic too!

Zira was a rescue that we pulled from a horrible pet store situation at 3 1/2 months old. Our next is going to be a rescue. We want an adult (or younger puppy/adolescent). That's what fits our house right now... so that's what we are going for.

Though, I guarantee you... my 3rd (waaaaaay down the road) WILL be a puppy from a breeder as I will want specifics from that dog and that will be what will fit then. And no I will not feel guilty about that in any way!

Don't feel guilty about going with what fits your family, lifestyle, and needs. If they don't fit (breeder pup or rescue)... it's actually doing just the opposite... you are doing an injustice to yourself and the dog.

Do what YOU feel is right for YOUR situation and lifestyle! Anyone who argues with that isn't worth your time anyways. Neither of them make you a bad person.... rescuing doesn't always make you a good person and buying a breeder puppy doesn't make you a bad person.... they both just make you a person who has truly understood what fits their home and made a responsible decision! 

I've done both, and both have always turned out to be a huge positive in my life as well as the animals. 

Good luck with your search for what fits you! I am sure either way you will get a fantastic companion!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RocketDog said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> I was recently attacked publicly on another forum (a running one, no less) for buying my GSD from an _evil breeder when there are dogs dying EVERY DAY _in shelters and rescues. This person was supposed to be my "friend" and had recently lost 2 different jobs and decided to become a dog trainer, the job she'd always wanted. She started volunteering at a local shelter at the same time I was getting Rocket and then it began.
> 
> ...


I am sorry for your friend. She is like a new Christian. Some of them get all fired up and go off half-cocked, very little foundation, very little knowledge, but a whole lot of zeal. She waited until the fourth bite to give up the dog. I wonder what she did after bite 1, 2, and 3. But whatever. Not every rescue dog has behavior issues. Not every breeder is a scumbag. 

I was taking a class put on by my vet, and there was a shelter volunteer there. 
She had 13 dogs at home. And she just bought this puppy from a pet store in the Erie mall. Yes, I'm sorry to say, but that did raise one of my eyebrows a little. She did tell me that she would NEVER buy from a breeder .


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.

To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".

If you have to ask yourself whether to buy or adopt, please buy. No need to hypocritical.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".


Thanks for reminding me why I have been off the forums for a while......the most silly thing I have read in a while.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.
> 
> To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".
> 
> If you have to ask yourself whether to buy or adopt, please buy. No need to hypocritical.


Really?

I just went to the rescue section. After midnight, there are eight people viewing the urgent, and seven viewing non-urgent. 

I think the rescue section seems a little more lively than the breeding section. As it should be. 

I wonder what the people who post in the rescue section think of your statement about it used to be active.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Huh. My vet, that I've seen for 20 years, is thankfully nothing like that. Neither is the one that lives two houses away, or the one my sister uses. In fact, that one is very actively involved in local rescue and does free spay/neuter and vaccinations. 

There may be vets like that, but I don't think they're the norm.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

sparra said:


> Thanks for reminding me why I have been off the forums for a while......the most silly thing I have read in a while.....


Thank you, I take it as a compliment.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think a vet should have an expensive dog anyway. Like a Mercedes dealer who should not drive a used chevy


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My vet has beagles and chickens that I know about. I don't think she cares about expensive dogs any more than rescued dogs. Never did mine anyway. I have brought mutts in, and purebreds in, and my import in, and none of them were treated any more or less special. My vet works closely with the shelter in the area, and they're always in there getting something for the dogs up there, she performs speuters for them. The very first dog we took there, some thirty years ago, was an abandoned mutt puppy who was being treated by the other vet in town, and would have been killed by them. They got her on the right track. They fixed her when my mom called and said NOW! When they found a lump on her stomach, they did surgery on her and sent it out to be biopsied and found it was stomach cancer. They checked her thoroughly for years after that, surprised that it did not reoccur. They were there with me when she was 14 and seizing, and they put her down for me. I never felt that they treated her any different than any of my other dogs.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.
> 
> To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".
> 
> If you have to ask yourself whether to buy or adopt, please buy. No need to hypocritical.


I've met some terrible vets, but I've never met a vet like that in my life. My vet proudly displays photos of her rescue dog on the wall in her office.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

How many rescue dogs did you take to a vet? Dogs that you foster (that you are not the owner of)?


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> How many rescue dogs did you take to a vet? Dogs that you foster (that you are not the owner of)?


I have taken five rescue cats to the vet over the years and once while dog sitting a mutt I had to take her to the vet because I noticed severe bloating. None of them have EVER been treated as second class citizens.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, I've taken 3. And my vet even came to my house when it was time to put them each down. Also, all my cats were/are shelter cats. Same treatment: kind, empathetic, and what is/was best for the animal.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've had more than one vet treat my foster dogs for a discount. I have a groomer who bathes and brushes my fosters for a discount. Honestly I've never felt persecuted or attacked on this board or in real life for being involved in rescue. I'm sorry if you have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RebelGSD, Sounds like you are expecting them to give you some type of deal on your dogs that you don't own but are taking to them for treatment? The handful of dogs I took in to the vet that I did not own, I paid full price on everything for them, and they were treated like any other dog that I had.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

No, they charge us the same as other clients, but are condescending in attitude and less thorough with care. I expect that, if I pay the same for the rescue dog as for a "client" dog, the rescue dog would receive the same level of care and respect as the regular client. With many vets this is not the case. No, vets around here don't give a discount and I don't expect it. Especially if it would justify crappy care.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I really don't think it's correct to say "many vets" or "most vets" when you make those statements. How many different vets have you seen? I have yet to encounter a vet that gives preferential treatment based on whether a dog is purchased or rescued. Just seems a very broad statement to make...


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.
> 
> To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".
> 
> If you have to ask yourself whether to buy or adopt, please buy. No need to hypocritical.


I haven't been on this board nearly as long as you have, but I have noticed that there are plenty of people who post that own rescue dogs and people who post in the rescue dog section. I know I personally check that section every time I'm on here. I haven't been exposed to the previous rescue bashing threads so I can't really comment on that. Doesn't sound very productive if that's what was occurring. 

I'm not sure what vets you've dealt with, but MOST vets do not act that way and do not conduct their business that way. Contrary to popular belief, vets aren't rolling in the big bucks like a lot of people may think. Yes, many practices increase costs to increase profits, but not all vets. Also, when vet students come out with $150,000-250,000 in debt it takes them YEARS to pay that out. Most of us an internship year with a salary of $25,000 and possibly 3 years of residency with a salary of $30,000. Then when we start in practice, we start out at $45,000-50,000 no $90-150,000. That's when you own your own successful practice (and thats an IF). 

Almost all the vets I know own rescues, volunteer with spay and neuter clinics, help with rescues, etc. My fellow vet students are extremely pro-rescue and very much against buying purebreds. So I think you are very much mis-informed and I would hope you that don't generalize the whole profession with such mis-information. 

Also, are you expecting veterinarians to charge less for rescue dogs? I know some set up programs with humane societies but this would be fairly ridiculous to be expected of the profession. I've NEVER seen a veterinarian treat any animal or client as a second class citizen. I suggest you read the veterinarians oath because it also sounds like you may be misinformed about what the profession actually stands for. 

Please don't take this post as mean or spiteful. I don't mean it as such, but I feel like you are saying that the veterinary profession as a whole has a negative view towards rescue animals and through my experience ... which is extensive, this simply is not so. I'm sorry if you've had that experience, that's really too bad and that's a really crappy vet, but please don't let that reflect the veterinary profession.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> No, they charge us the same as other clients, but are condescending in attitude and less thorough with care. I expect that, if I pay the same for the rescue dog as for a "client" dog, the rescue dog would receive the same level of care and respect as the regular client. With many vets this is not the case. No, vets around here don't give a discount and I don't expect it. Especially if it would justify crappy care.


Rebel, it sounds like it's time to find a new vet. My personal vet that I take all my GSD fosters to is wonderful with them. They don't treat them any differently than my personal dog or personal dogs of other clients and I pay full price.

It's not easy being the rescuer in rescue and it takes a special kind of person to overlook the nonsense and keep their eye on the end goal.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

gsdraven said:


> Rebel, it sounds like it's time to find a new vet. My personal vet that I take all my GSD fosters to is wonderful with them. They don't treat them any differently than my personal dog or personal dogs of other clients and I pay full price.
> 
> It's not easy being the rescuer in rescue and it takes a special kind of person to overlook the nonsense and keep their eye on the end goal.



We went to several vets before we found one who is nice to the rescue dogs. Other area rescues had similar problems. There are many snobby vets in the area unfortunately. Interesting that they are not nicer to rescue dogs even though they make more money on us than on the average "client" dog.

So an expensive top line breeder dog and an expensive car fit well into the vet image around here.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

MegansGrace said:


> I haven't been on this board nearly as long as you have, but I have noticed that there are plenty of people who post that own rescue dogs and people who post in the rescue dog section. I know I personally check that section every time I'm on here. I haven't been exposed to the previous rescue bashing threads so I can't really comment on that. Doesn't sound very productive if that's what was occurring.
> 
> I'm not sure what vets you've dealt with, but MOST vets do not act that way and do not conduct their business that way. Contrary to popular belief, vets aren't rolling in the big bucks like a lot of people may think. Yes, many practices increase costs to increase profits, but not all vets. Also, when vet students come out with $150,000-250,000 in debt it takes them YEARS to pay that out. Most of us an internship year with a salary of $25,000 and possibly 3 years of residency with a salary of $30,000. Then when we start in practice, we start out at $45,000-50,000 no $90-150,000. That's when you own your own successful practice (and thats an IF).
> 
> ...


Well, I can recommend the Baltimore area for vets. The 7 practices I worked with for the different rescues have veterinarians who work maybe 3-4 days a week, I don't know many others who can afford it. Heaven forbid taking an urgent dog on the same day! And I am amazed how a dog test costs twice as much as the same test for a person. An x-ray for examle. A lot changes from veterinary school. The practices go very well judging by the way clients and rescues are treated.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

And this is the third time I am repeating this: no, I don't expect that they charge less. What I do expect that, since I pay the same for a rescue animal as for my own dog, that the rescue animal is treated with the same respect and receive the same care as the "client". Sadly i have dealt with too many that don't. Paying less would justify even worse treatment. What really gets to me when they blatantly lie about the cost of the meds to jack up prices and they are not even consistent in the same practice. One vet gave me an estimate of $1500 for the HW treatment and another vet in the same practice $700 for identical services. They both gave me the estimates in writing. The first one claimed that the immiticide alone costs $550. How can one trust a vet about care when the person blatantly lies about the cost of the medication. Interestingly, a third one in the south charge $150 for the immiticide for the same dog. Interesting how a pharma company would charge 4 times the amount to one vet, compared to the amount they charge to another vet, or twice the amount they charge to a vet in the same practice. And I am amazed by the number of veterinarians who advise their clients not to adopt a dog that underwent heartworm treatment. These are not people who will own rescue animals. These people certainly don't own a rescue.

Anyway, plenty of vets out there that own expensive dog's from famous kennels and there is no reason not to.


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## KaiLouie (Jan 7, 2012)

selzer said:


> You may use the term adopt, even for a dog that is from a breeder because you are adopting a family member, it should not matter how much money has changed hands.


I am currently watching Dogs 101 while reading this thread, and the narrated has been using the phrase "adopted from a breeder". I think you're right, you are adopting a new family member.

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Before deciding on a breeder, i was going back and forth between the idea of buying or rescuing. I want a PB German Shepherd and was looking to PB rescues, but was turned down twice for not having a fenced in yard. I am not bitter (I was for a few weeks, but not anymore) because I know they are looking for the best situation for the dog. I now know that there are specific things I want out of a dog, especially good hips for a running partner. Also, this is my first dog on my own and I am really looking forward to training from the ground up. Once I am a more experienced trainer and owner, then I think I would feel more comfortable taking on an adult dog from a rescue. I still feel that little bit of guilt though when people who know I am getting a dog tell me about a dog they've seen (no matter the breed) that needs a home.


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## Whit223 (Nov 30, 2009)

I rescued both Sascha and my previous GSD Britney. Britney however, was purchased originally by her previous owner, a sheriff's department deputy who had to give her up because his mother got terminally ill in England and he couldn't take Britney with him, so my brother, knowing the deputy well and being a dog trainer, took her on and gave her to me when he found out she didn't like children (i have none).
And what i can say about this to relate to this topic is...this dog was purchased for upwards of 2 grand. Then when she had to be given up, she was later rescued. This dog is the same dog either way. So my point is that a rescue could have come from anywhere, and if you're specifically looking for a GSD, chances are it was originally PURCHASED from a breeder of some sort. So the difference, in my opinion, in rescuing and purchasing, comes down to whether you want an adult, who could have background training, and hopefully not much baggage as far as abuse or neglect...or a puppy, whom with you can start from scratch.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

i really don't understand this thread. so i may sound like an idiot in this post. i've never bought animals from a breeder before, but i have taken dogs from a breeder who was retiring females from breeding. she had no takers on her bitches so she sent them to me. these were show dogs, collies and afghan hounds. 

i've had my own dogs, fosters, and adopted rescues to 3 different vets in our area and none of them have ever treated any of the dogs any different each from the other, or me. whether they were mixed breeds or pure breds. costs are dependant on what's going on in the office. overhead, personell, equipment, on-hand medications, supplies that sort of thing. it has nothing to do w/how a vet feels about each and every individual client unless that client is a total butt-head. 

i probably will never buy a puppy from a breeder as i'm not a puppy-type person. my heart will always remain w/the shelter dog. but i always tell people we need our responsible breeders, we DON'T need back yard breeders or puppy millers. w/out breeders we would not have our cute little mix breeds, dogs in the newspaper that someone else can't or won't take care of, our craig's list give aways, or even (unfortunately) our shelter dogs. where does anyone think they originate from? but it IS NOT the breeder! it is the irresponsibility of the owners who will not take care of their dogs w/spay, neutering, or even just watching over them properly, who will not contain them, who will not keep them and love them all their lives. 

if you take on the dog you take on their love, their life, their hunger, their needs, their expenses, their responsibility. that's the cost of the love and devotion they give. if you're not willing to do that then don't take the dog. that means the VET too, if you don't like your vet find a new one, there's a million of them out there. 

i hope that doesn't sound too stupid. 

maria:blush:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

RebelGSD, there is a well-known phenomenon in the rescue world known as "rescue burnout." We all get it eventually if we're passionate about these dogs. I think you have it now. I think, for your own mental health and well-being, that it might be time to take a break from rescuing and focus on your own life and your own dogs. Take several months or a year off. Then, when you're feeling revived and refreshed and less angry, get back into rescuing again.


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> And this is the third time I am repeating this: no, I don't expect that they charge less. What I do expect that, since I pay the same for a rescue animal as for my own dog, that the rescue animal is treated with the same respect and receive the same care as the "client". Sadly i have dealt with too many that don't. Paying less would justify even worse treatment. What really gets to me when they blatantly lie about the cost of the meds to jack up prices and they are not even consistent in the same practice. One vet gave me an estimate of $1500 for the HW treatment and another vet in the same practice $700 for identical services. They both gave me the estimates in writing. The first one claimed that the immiticide alone costs $550. How can one trust a vet about care when the person blatantly lies about the cost of the medication. Interestingly, a third one in the south charge $150 for the immiticide for the same dog. Interesting how a pharma company would charge 4 times the amount to one vet, compared to the amount they charge to another vet, or twice the amount they charge to a vet in the same practice. And I am amazed by the number of veterinarians who advise their clients not to adopt a dog that underwent heartworm treatment. These are not people who will own rescue animals. These people certainly don't own a rescue.
> 
> Anyway, plenty of vets out there that own expensive dog's from famous kennels and there is no reason not to.



That's weird and really shouldn't happen. Vets buy drugs from pharmacy companies for a certain price (of course it varies on brand), but what they charge in their clinic is what changes. Data shows that some vet practices have raised their prices over the years of their services to cover costs (aka jacked up their prices). I know things down South are typically cheaper overall (from living down there). Maybe vet prices are cheaper there too? We've talked about this on a Lab board and found that vet prices vary greatly all over the country. I guess it really depends on where you live. I know prices around me (at home in NY) are pretty high. Your comments are well founded on your experiences. Really sucks that it takes a few rotten eggs to misrepresent the profession like that. Thanks for clarifying why you have that point of view, it's certainly warranted.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Huh? 

As someone whose kvetched a bit about how newbies (_in general_) are _sometimes_ treated here....and as someone who started on this board with only a rescue to start myself...I've not gotten that impression from this board wrt rescues/rescue owners at all. 

As a matter of fact I've noticed several breeders here recommend trying the rescue route for people who were looking for their first GSD, especially if they are not looking to get involved in sport or show. 

Also, my vet has a three legged rescued cat to greet everyone who comes into her office. I've never had a vet show off his/her personal expensive 'purebred' non rescued dog...and I've lived in three different states and lived in several different cities within those states.




RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.
> 
> To the OP: most vets I know have expensive dog's acquired from breeders that they show off in their office as status symbol. So please feel free to buy. Also most vets treat rescue dogs and their caretakers as second class citizens, while charging the same as their "clients". Rescue dog's for some reason are not "clients".
> 
> If you have to ask yourself whether to buy or adopt, please buy. No need to hypocritical.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Huh. My vet, that I've seen for 20 years, is thankfully nothing like that. Neither is the one that lives two houses away, or the one my sister uses. In fact, that one is very actively involved in local rescue and does free spay/neuter and vaccinations.
> 
> There may be vets like that, but I don't think they're the norm.


I'd have to say get a new vet. LOL Mine isn't like that either. I've had both rescue dogs and dogs from a breeder and they were all wonderful dogs. I recently tried a rescue dog from a breeder and that didn't go so well. The 2 year old dog was afraid of men. I loved her to death but she just wouldn't settle down with my husband. We wound up spending a lot of money taking her back to the breeder. Spent far more money on that free dog than we would have on a puppy. Oh well.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Our "in town vet", actually has kittens, cats, puppies and dogs...that they take in as rescues and try to adopt out.
Many are the unwanted, poorly taken care of animals in this county.
These vets, vaccinate & spay the animals *at their cost* and adopt them out......I could never support any vet who treated "clients" differently, simply because of the type of animal that they owned.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

i have to agree w/the concept of "rescue burnout". i've been in rescue for going 23yrs. less 5yrs somewhere in the middle there. i was so ruined on it from the anger, sorrow, and pain of seeing so many coming thru in such bad shape that i just couldn't go on anymore. 

sometimes you just have to step back for awhile in order to get your head and heart back in order. you can't do anyone any good in that condition. being that angry and hurt yourself only disenfranchises everyone around you. that doesn't help those that need it the most. there are others that willingly step into your shoes. i can attest to that. 

maria


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.


Oh, please.

Name one DECENT rescuer that was "harassed away" from this board.

I can name you a bunch of BAD 'rescuers' that have left.


132,823 posts in the Rescue section

66,623 posts in the Breeding section


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our vet has rescued cats, a rescued 3-legged GSD and another dog I cannot think of the breed. I love her GSD :wub:
Most the vets we work with end up keeping the cast-offs that others dump, they fix up and keep because nobody else is taking them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I guess I have been lucky; I have never had to deal with a vet who treated rescue dogs as second-class. On the contrary, it is most vets' bread and butter; mixed-breeds seem to outnumber purebreds in our area.

Of course you will see vast differences in pricing from vet to vet. Some vets have higher overhead than others. Some are more concerned with taking care of animals (gasp) than with getting rich. Some will charge 4x as much for HW treatment as others. That is their choice; some are satisfied with a lower profit margin. When I got my HW+ dog, my old country mobile vet charged me about $300 for the treatment. I have heard others charging as much as $1200. I used to work for this vet, so I know what his costs are, and he barely breaks even. Especially when he's nice to people like me, and I know he serves underpriviledged communities at a reduced cost.

Never have a met a vet who owns purebreds as a "status symbol" and treats mixed-breed dogs as second-class. In our community, I don't think such an attitude would be tolerated. I suppose if I were in an upperclass area things might be different, but around here, clients have been known to stop going to a vet if he drives too nice a car.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I guess I have been lucky; I have never had to deal with a vet who treated rescue dogs as second-class. On the contrary, it is most vets' bread and butter; mixed-breeds seem to outnumber purebreds in our area.
> 
> Of course you will see vast differences in pricing from vet to vet. Some vets have higher overhead than others. Some are more concerned with taking care of animals (gasp) than with getting rich. Some will charge 4x as much for HW treatment as others. That is their choice; some are satisfied with a lower profit margin. When I got my HW+ dog, my old country mobile vet charged me about $300 for the treatment. I have heard others charging as much as $1200. I used to work for this vet, so I know what his costs are, and he barely breaks even. Especially when he's nice to people like me, and I know he serves underpriviledged communities at a reduced cost.
> 
> Never have a met a vet who owns purebreds as a "status symbol" and treats mixed-breed dogs as second-class. In our community, I don't think such an attitude would be tolerated. I suppose if I were in an upperclass area things might be different, but around here, clients have been known to stop going to a vet if he drives too nice a car.



I live in a very upper class area, and it's the same thing. We have a lot of extremely wealthy people here (NYC weekenders, and family money), but also a lot of farmers, so there's a strange mix. I have NEVER seen a vet behave that way... every vet I've been to with my horses and my own dogs has owned rescues and has gone out of their way to help rescues... even the vets that the breeders I work with go to.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

For the year and a half I have been on this board I have never seen someone tell a rescuer that their dog was a "throw away" or anything like that.

Just because someone says they want a PB so they don't have to deal with rescue issues doesn't mean they think every rescue is bad.

After having my dog, which I should refer to as a rescue because I RESCUED him from a terrible BYB, I will personally NEVER get a GSD that is under the age of 2 from a rescue. I would not rescue a GSD, pitbull, rottie, doberman, chow chow, or related breeds under the age of 2 from a rescue, purely because of how many turn out to be Dog aggressive, HUman aggressive, or have severe issues.

I will take care of Rocky until the day he passes, living "specially" and doing things the weird way so that he can be happy and others won't be scared of him or nipped by him.

But once I graduate, have a job, and a house, I am buying a PB german shepherd from someone on this board (I have about 3 breeders I really love) so I can start doing shtz, agility, etc. My dog just doesn't have the nerves for anything other than being a really awesome pet. I don't fault him for it.

--------------------------------
PS: Why would a rescue dog deserve cheaper health care than a purebred dog??? Why would any vet offer that? I can understand offering cheaper neuters if you adopt from a shelter, but if two dogs have hip D., one rescue, one PB, why should the pricing be different?

PPS: When I say PB in this thread, I use the term loosely. I know some rescues appear 100% purebred, but I don't say PB unless they have papers. MY own dog is obviously 100% GSD, but he doesn't have papers. If someone asks, I say "I believe so, but he didn't have papers". No one usually asks though...


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I live in a very upper class area, and it's the same thing. We have a lot of extremely wealthy people here (NYC weekenders, and family money), but also a lot of farmers, so there's a strange mix. I have NEVER seen a vet behave that way... every vet I've been to with my horses and my own dogs has owned rescues and has gone out of their way to help rescues... even the vets that the breeders I work with go to.


I live in an area where everyone drives BMWs/Mercedes/Audis and they shop at Nordstrom and wear designer clothing, have Louis Vuitton purses, etc. I go to a vet in the heart of this area and that vet has never treated any of my pets like that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

This board is not 'run' by mostly breeders Where that idea came from is beyond me.

I don't know who the vets are your dealing with Rebel but
My vets office whom I've been going to for probably 20 years, ALL have rescues as pets..Sure a couple have bought dogs from breeders, but the majority owned are rescues, whether it's cats , rats or dogs Or people dumping animals on their doorstep.

I have NEVER been to any vet that treated rescue animals different than "bought" animals. In fact, my vets gave me great discounts (and superb service) on litters of kittens I fostered including discounts on s/n for adopters. Didn't make the service any less than if I paid full price. It was a welcome goodwill gesture by my vets office.

And as for running off rescues here, I'm with Lauri,,name ONE reputable rescue that was "run" off of here. 

I also agree maybe you have 'rescue burnout' and need a break.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks to everybody giving advice about a rescue burnout. It is actually the burnout of all that can go bad with a rescue dog type of thread on this board. The many who adore their rescue dogs usually don't come to chime in in threads like this.

As to whether one should rescue or not: IMO only those whose heart is in rescue and who find it rewarding to watch an animal evolving in their home and enjoy the challenge of solving problems should rescue. Those whose heart is not into rescue, should simply get a superior dog from a reputable breeder. It is simple.

As to vets, same thing. They are certainly in a better position to chose what they prefer, since their costs for veterinary care will be less.if their heart is not with rescue, they shoul not rescue. Their choice can affect the clients. After the experiences with different vets, I will chose one who has a photo of a rescue dog on the wall rather than one who has a photo of a show dog. I will prefer a vet that works a full week and drives a normal car. 

As to jacking up prices, maybe the vets in the same practice should agree what price they claim for the cost of the medication so that their clients don't catch them in a lie. By the way the owner of this practice, has photos of himself and staff treating exotic animals in Africa as well as photos with animals and actors from Hollywood movies. Apparently he is the veterinarian for the animal movie stars living thousands of miles away from his practice. And a photo with a politician. And he used to appear at the local tv station. So 10 years ago he decided he wnted a GSD, the dog had to be the very best show lines. Only the very best would do for him. I recommend a hobby breeder I knew and he ended up purchasing a puppy from her. She was a sweet girl an really well behaved for a GSD puppy. It turned out he could not handle her so he shipped her off to a Hollywood trainer who was to teach her eye commands ( not verbal or hand signals, eye signals). And he would still complain that she jumped on people. He complained for years that she developed a lighter spot on her nose and he paid the breeder for a show quality puppy. He contacted me recently about a recommendation for a top line GSD. And his office calls me when they get a GSD abandoned by the owners before they euthanize the dog, to see whether I or other local rescues will take the animal.

Anyway, rescue is not for everybody. Those whose heart is not in it should go to a reputable breeder. Simple.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Just sounds to me like you need a different vet.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Myself and a good friend of mine are both part of this board, and we both have rescue GSDs. I will be adopting my second rescue GSD soon. I have NEVER felt any less on here because of that. I actually have seen more people on here that have rescues, then breeders or those who have just breeder bought dogs. So I honestly have NO idea where this is coming from.

As of the vets thing.... You seriously need to find a new vet... or maybe it's just how you're seeing things.. maybe you need to go in with a different mind set. My vet that we've been using for almost 20 years now actually owns ALL rescue animals. He has 4 rescue pits, 3 rescue cats, a few reptiles and other small critters that needed some care and a home.... AND, he regularly takes in animals that are dropped off or found as a stray. He gets them back up to health and then adopts them out. His wife also plays a HUGE role in the Central FL Golden Retriever rescue. He has never treated any of his clients differently... rescue or breeder picked. My rescue byb GSD is treated just the same as my very very well bred sporting/show Golden Retriever was.

My SO and I also have close friends that are apart of the Greyhound rescue here. They currently have 5. Never once have they had any issues with any of this. Their vet actually cuts costs where he can for them (they do not ask or expect this from the vet, but the vet does it anyways). They always tell me how much they love their vet and how fantastic he is with their dogs. Those vets in that clinic ALSO own rescue animals and like my vet and the other clinics I've been to... they have a board up with all sorts of animals that are lost/found, need homes, etc..

I really can't understand where all this is coming from.... I've adopted and bought many dogs, cats, and other animals. I've been a foster home for kittens and worked closely with the rescue and vet that we were apart of. I've owned rescues and PB.... Never once have I had any of these complaints.

Such a weird thread this has turned into....


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

RebelGSD said:


> On this board, which is essentially run by breeders, it is the rescuers that are treated like crap. The board used have an active rescue section and most rescuers were harassed away by the contestant attacks and rescue bashing threads.


As one of the moderators on this board, who NEVER has any intention to breed EVER.....

And who loves all the rescues and shelter and mixed breeds people have on this board..........

I very much resent that statement. 

Legitimate rescuers are always welcome on this forum. :wub:



TrickyShepherd said:


> Myself and a good friend of mine are both part of this board, and we both have rescue GSDs. I will be adopting my second rescue GSD soon. I have NEVER felt any less on here because of that. I actually have seen more people on here that have rescues, then breeders or those who have just breeder bought dogs. So I honestly have NO idea where this is coming from.
> 
> ....


Bless you for that! :thumbup:


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Bless you for that! :thumbup:


 Thank you! 

And I can't tell you how many people on here have helped me with the whole rescue process and keeping me from loosing hope in finding the right one! They are one of the reasons we may have found the one! So many other people rescue/foster on here, and I have never seen anyone treated badly because they do... I have no idea how some can claim otherwise! Personally, I spend a lot of time on the rescue portion of this forum, and I see many others on there as well....


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

RebelGSD said:


> The many who adore their rescue dogs usually don't come to chime in in threads like this.


I'm not normally out to prove people wrong, but this just seems so odd to hear after going through all 120 some posts in this thread. I guess I have too much time on my hands, because I made of list of how many different people have chimed in:

42 members have posted on this thread, not counting the OP. 
Of the 42 members that have posted, *35* said that they have rescued in the past, have at least one rescue dog (some multiple rescues), or are open to adopting a rescue in the future. I saw at least two breeders post that they have owned rescue dogs, and have fostered (I know other breeders on this board that have done the same but have not posted to this thread). 

The other 7 posters who do not fit in the "35 who have rescued" category simply posted to comment (they may have rescued in the past, or have rescue dogs, I don't know), and a couple came out and said they are not interested in rescuing (and that's fine, the point being repeated here is that people need to do what they feel is right for them, and no-one should make them feel guilty for their choices). 

(Numbers may not be exact, depending on your own interpretation, but there is still a large majority of people "chiming in" with rescues). 

So about 83% of the posters here posted about their beloved rescue dog, or about the desire to rescue a dog. So maybe this board isn't all that anti-rescue after all, and the thread is not scaring owners of rescue dogs away from posting.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

since there's not a "LIKE" button on this board, i'll just say this: 

VERY well said Castlemaid :thumbup:


maria


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Legitimate rescuers are always welcome on this forum. :wub:


What's an illegitmate rescuer?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Davey Benson said:


> What's an illegitmate rescuer?


People posing as rescuers to make a profit. People who snap up the young, healthy, purebred, already vetted dogs for $50 or $70 and then re-home them for $250 or $300, but don't take on dogs with health problems or seniors that cost money and take a long time to find homes for. People who "rescue" intact dogs and then have "accidental" liters and then "rehome" the puppies at a profit. People who take in dogs with known health or behavioral problems and then pass them along to unsuspecting adopters without mentioning those health or behavior problems.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

oh


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

There are so many "rescues" around here who are rehoming mixed breed dogs for $350. It drives me absolutely insane.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> There are so many "rescues" around here who are rehoming mixed breed dogs for $350. It drives me absolutely insane.


Well. . . yes and no. I have a lot of respect for good mixed-breed rescue groups because on the whole, it's harder to adopt out a mixed-breed than a dog of a recognizable pure breed. There are certainly more mixed breed dogs in need of rescue than purebreds, as evidenced by how very very many mixed breed dogs end up in shelters. And it's certainly not cheaper to vaccinate or sterilize or treat heart worms in a mixed breed than it is in a pure breed. Mixed breed rescue doesn't have lower operating costs than pure breed rescue and I can _promise_ you that those of us in legitimate rescue are losing money on it. The life of a mixed breed dog is worth as much as the life of a pure breed dog. There's just less market for them.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Rebel, it sounds like you just have a huge chip on your shoulder. It's just funny to me because I have observed the opposite in everyday life. It seems now that people who purchase dogs from ethical breeders are bullied and made to feel guilty and horrible by rescuers and lumped in the same category as people who purchase dogs from backyard greeders and pet stores. I get interrogated by rescue nut cases nearly every time I bring my intact doberman to a dog event! Even when people don't approach me with questions, I feel their eyes burning in the back of my skull when they see my intact dog. So many of them jump on the bandwagon and think they are superior and get on a power trip because they saved a dog's life. I am very involved in dog rescue and witness this! I am just rational and logical, many people in rescue are jaded and emotionally unstable, they lose themselves in it and there is no balance in their lives.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Well. . . yes and no. I have a lot of respect for good mixed-breed rescue groups because on the whole, it's harder to adopt out a mixed-breed than a dog of a recognizable pure breed. There are certainly more mixed breed dogs in need of rescue than purebreds, as evidenced by how very very many mixed breed dogs end up in shelters. And it's certainly not cheaper to vaccinate or sterilize or treat heart worms in a mixed breed than it is in a pure breed. Mixed breed rescue doesn't have lower operating costs than pure breed rescue and I can _promise_ you that those of us in legitimate rescue are losing money on it. The life of a mixed breed dog is worth as much as the life of a pure breed dog. There's just less market for them.


:thumbup:

I really don't like how people feel the need to judge a rescue by fees. They need to know how much it costs to rescue dogs. Right now we drive our dogs 100 miles (round trip) to be altered, we have vaccine costs, microchips, dewormers and that's just for healthy dogs. Seniors...forgeddaboutit! Dogs who come in too badly injured or ill to make it through to a new home, we eat those costs. The money has to come from somewhere.
Then add food (we buy Costco's food), laundry soaps, bleach and other cleaners, the list goes on and on. Paper for the printers to print out contracts and health forms/insurance and registration, ink, etc. those things come out of the rescue budget.
People just think "OH they are getting rich on those fees" but I'd dare anyone to come pay our bills for a few months.
OH, and we're also erecting a shelter building at the same time so that we can help even more dogs. It never ends. 

I'd _love_ to give up rescue most days, just walk away. Then we get another call. Another dog or puppy has been dumped and is wandering around in the snow now and freezing to death. It is hard to turn away


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

RebelGSD said:


> As to vets, same thing. They are certainly in a better position to chose what they prefer, since their costs for veterinary care will be less.if their heart is not with rescue, they shoul not rescue. Their choice can affect the clients. After the experiences with different vets, I will chose one who has a photo of a rescue dog on the wall rather than one who has a photo of a show dog. I will prefer a vet that works a full week and drives a normal car.


What about my vet... She has purebred German Shorthaired Pointers (who do tracking, frisbee, agility and hunt) but the waiting room is full of flyers for dogs who need homes. She had someone paint the front windows of her clinic with big lettering "WE NEED HOMES" and puts up photos of adoptable dogs. She has taken into the clinic, vetted and found homes for strays who were brought in by someone (some from random people who either found the dog nearby or just came in and said "there's a loose kitten running around down the block"; some from clients who brought them in.) She also gives discounts to clients who have foster dogs or are rescuers. She neutered one of my foster kittens for free and way discounted the vaccinations when I found a whole litter of feral kittens(and didn't charge any exam fees). She recently held a bake sale in her office to help a client pay for the vet bills for a rescued German Shepherd who had bloat and kidney failure. She also keeps an emergency fund for people who are unable to pay for their pets.

So is that all negated because she chooses to have purebred dogs from a breeder? She actually looked into adopting a GSP from the local breed rescue first when she wanted to get another dog, but they turned her down because her father hunts with her dogs. :shrug: So she ended up getting an adult dog from the breeder where she got one of her previous GSPs.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> I'd _love_ to give up rescue most days, just walk away. Then we get another call. Another dog or puppy has been dumped and is wandering around in the snow now and freezing to death. It is hard to turn away



Story of a rescuer's life!! I work full time and it seems that each week on my days off I end up saving a dog, or helping to save a dog. I keep saying "i need a break, i need a break, i am going to do something on my days off and just CHILL, I need me time" Yeah...never happens, lol. I'd just feel too guilty if I sat on my butt knowing that I CAN save a life.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

those of us that work out of our own wallets are a little different. we don't have the backing of a legitimate 501 to help us cover costs. we also don't handle as many dogs at one time. we do one dog at a time, so we're very picky, if we can be, about who we pick up. i've taken in some pretty rough cases and the costs have been astronomical, set us back personally quite a bit and there's no one to help us cover them except a little more over time for my husband, and some cutting back on personal expenses for ourselves. but those dogs get healthy and get placed and do wonderfully. 

the last real expensive pair i had i just finished up with was a pair of brother cockers. they came in a mess and left in perfect health. hugo my "new" gsd came in at thanksgiving underweight, eye infections, bruised, w/stitches and needing neutering. he's gained 15lbs, eye infections are gone, bruises are gone, stitches are out and he's scheduled to be neutered on the 2/07. but all of that comes out of our wallets, not donations, or adoption fees. 

no adoption fee can ever return what we put into those dogs. the most i've ever charged for an adoption fee is $65. no matter how much they pay, it doesn't guarantee they won't abandon the dog in the future. expense doesn't guarantee responsibility. nothing will not even the deepest background check will. you do the best you can, and try to stay in touch, and hope for the best. that's all anyone can do. 

maria


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

My vet's is opposite. I think he dislikes PB dog's....or maybe it's the owners.

He always asks the same questions....did you get this dog from a breeder? 

I actually think he doesn't really like GSD's either.

He has a ton of office cat's running around. They always remind you when you go in...that they can be adopted. Last time I went in...there was a mommy dog with a few pups. I guess somebody dumped her....they tied her up to the front door when she was still pregnant. They were trying to find homes for mom and pups. Anyway, his office always has countless animals up for adoption.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> There are so many "rescues" around here who are rehoming mixed breed dogs for $350. It drives me absolutely insane.


 Why on earth would that drive you insane? It doesn't cost less to vet, spay/neuter, feed, train or house a mixed breed dog than it does a purebred one. And I guarantee you that $350 doesn't cover a rescue's expenses for a purebred dog that spent a month in foster care... especially if they needed to be altered.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Rebel, it sounds like you just have a huge chip on your shoulder. It's just funny to me because I have observed the opposite in everyday life. It seems now that people who purchase dogs from ethical breeders are bullied and made to feel guilty and horrible by rescuers and lumped in the same category as people who purchase dogs from backyard greeders and pet stores. I get interrogated by rescue nut cases nearly every time I bring my intact doberman to a dog event! Even when people don't approach me with questions, I feel their eyes burning in the back of my skull when they see my intact dog. So many of them jump on the bandwagon and think they are superior and get on a power trip because they saved a dog's life. I am very involved in dog rescue and witness this! I am just rational and logical, many people in rescue are jaded and emotionally unstable, they lose themselves in it and there is no balance in their lives.


OMG THANK YOU!!! I have noticed this big time. I was doing SAR with Jinx and everyone said she was the best on the team, had the most drive etc... even the trainer was blown away by her however CONSTANTLY talked bad about her because she was "bought" and it was so bad. We had a news reporter come out to do a story on the team and she even talked about how all of the dogs were throw aways on their last days of life and now are saving lives etc... then goes and starts bad mouthing Jinx because she's the only one on the team who was bought from a breeder etc... Im constantly dealing with people talking junk because Jinx was not a rescue however as we speak I have a foster pup laying across my lap fast asleep on the couch with me.

On this forum I have seen MANY "breeders" chased away but not the legitimate ones same as "rescuers". I have seen "rescuers" run themselves off because not every dog can be saved and they just can't handle it so abandon ship. However, on this forum, I have seen many people come on here looking for a dog asking specifically for breeders and some breeders turn them to rescues as well as others or people looking for a breeder because they want something specific from the pup (in terms of drives, nerves etc..) and MANY rescuers have thrown rescueing at them non stop and actually made the poster upset as a result. 

As far as the vet it sounds like you've gotten some jerks I've had some bug me because of not fixing Jinx and just poor care in general however never had any treat my fosters any worse then my own dogs. Actually when I rescued in Michigan the vet there gave a HUGE discount to the rescues and would always get me in same day that I called for anything and treated the dogs great and spent alot of time with them.

The vet I'm at now they are working to give a discount to the rescue for dogs I bring in there I can just walk in and always get seen and they are great with them. I can take the foster in there and they will play around with them and socialize on the floor behind the counter weight them etc.. and not charge anything they are in the vet business for the right reason (animals) sounds like you found the bad vet just like the bad breeder and the bad rescue... in it for the money and not the animals which always causes caring and quality to decline.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Well. . . yes and no. I have a lot of respect for good mixed-breed rescue groups because on the whole, it's harder to adopt out a mixed-breed than a dog of a recognizable pure breed. There are certainly more mixed breed dogs in need of rescue than purebreds, as evidenced by how very very many mixed breed dogs end up in shelters. And it's certainly not cheaper to vaccinate or sterilize or treat heart worms in a mixed breed than it is in a pure breed. Mixed breed rescue doesn't have lower operating costs than pure breed rescue and I can _promise_ you that those of us in legitimate rescue are losing money on it. The life of a mixed breed dog is worth as much as the life of a pure breed dog. There's just less market for them.


Mixed breed or pure breed, I don't think it's necessary to charge upwards of $350 for most rescue dogs around here. I say most because a lot of the dogs are just owner surrenders, who have already been altered and vetted, and the "rescue" turns around and makes $300 on them. I totally understand a higher adoption fee for pets who needed any other expensive veterinary care or altering, but for an already vetted dog, that seems ridiculous to me.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Why on earth would that drive you insane? It doesn't cost less to vet, spay/neuter, feed, train or house a mixed breed dog than it does a purebred one. And I guarantee you that $350 doesn't cover a rescue's expenses for a purebred dog that spent a month in foster care... especially if they needed to be altered.


I don't mean that it only happens for mixed breed dogs. I think that charging that much for most any rescue dog is ridiculous if they have already been vetted. If the dog did require extra medical attention, then I absolutely understand a higher adoption fee. In my area, the rescues mostly operate with owner-surrender cases where the dogs have already been vetted or altered, and then the "rescue" turns around and makes $300 on them. Especially the puppies. They know they're going to go faster, so they hike the price up a couple hundred bucks. 

The humane society here does it all the time and it makes me wild. Someone could drop of a mother pit bull from off the streets riddled with mange and kennel cough and charge a $50 adoption fee, but the perfectly healthy 8 week old puppies will be $300, and they will be adopted out in two days. So it's not like they can say they're charging that much to cover the cost of housing/feeding the puppies because they hardly spent any time there.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Gatordog...it probably depends somewhat on the location but a lot of the owner surrenders here in the (deep) south aren't UTD, spayed or neutered.

Also consider this, it only takes one or two very sick dogs with in a rescue group to sky rocket expenses.

The costs for these dogs is leveraged against the healthy less expensive dogs in the adoption fee.

Otherwise some dogs would cost $1500 or more to adopt and others maybe $75 and that just wouldn't work...

Really, now-a-days $350 for a healthy, vaccinated spayed/nuetered dog isn't too high....


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I honestly would like to see a Humane Society that is making a profit--even a decent one. Everyone I've ever seen is basically making costs, with maybe a bit above to use at the shelter for improvements.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Alexis, I think you should spend some time volunteering for rescues. That is not how most operate and it certainly isn't reputable. Dogs are highly undervalued in this country which is a big part of our overpopulation problem. I don't see how someone could consider a pure-bred pup for $2,000+ from a breeder but thinks a "rescue" dog isn't worth $350.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Alexis, I think you should spend some time volunteering for rescues. That is not how most operate and it certainly isn't reputable. Dogs are highly undervalued in this country which is a big part of our overpopulation problem. I don't see how someone could consider a pure-bred pup for $2,000+ from a breeder but thinks a "rescue" dog isn't worth $350.


I would pay $2000+ from a breeder when looking for a puppy that possess specific qualities I am looking for in a working dog. I never once I didn't think a rescue pup wasn't worth $350...so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that comment. I paid $250 for my rescue and would have been willing to pay more if I needed to. 

And I spent 2 years volunteering at the last rescue that I worked with and they turned me off from it completely. When I hear from someone's mouth that, "We've got some puppies coming in, so we can get more money from people" I found it to be ridiculous. 

There are so many people who are looking to rescue dogs because it it cheaper than buying from a breeder, and when the adoption fees are slowly starting to close in on the fees you would pay when purchasing from a breeder, you are going to see less dogs adopted. I completely agree with you about it not being reputable, but unfortunately that is the one and only experience I had when volunteering with a rescue. 

I thought the purpose of rescues was to rehome animals in need. I know more than a few people who aren't looking to spend $300 initially on a dog, and in return just won't rescue at all, and a dog somewhere just missed an opportunity to be adopted.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GatorDog said:


> Someone could drop of a mother pit bull from off the streets riddled with mange and kennel cough and charge a $50 adoption fee, but the perfectly healthy 8 week old puppies will be $300, and they will be adopted out in two days. So it's not like they can say they're charging that much to cover the cost of housing/feeding the puppies because they hardly spent any time there.



Do you not see that the "healthy 8 week old pups" fee is paying for the mother pit bull riddled with mange?? Do you think her measly $50 fee is paying for her own vetting, extended stay and meds?? It all evens out in the long run. 

Try doing it yourself and see how far that $50 fee will take you when you're talking about a dog with extensive medical bills.

Yes we ask more for healthy little desirable puppies so we can continue to rescue seniors, who sometimes are with us only a week or two before their journey ends in our arms, and there's no adoption fees _at all_ coming in for them.
Or even seniors who do get adopted out for $100, and their bills totaled over $200-300. Where does the money come when we're in the red on those dogs?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GatorDog said:


> I know more than a few people who aren't looking to spend $300 initially on a dog, and in return just won't rescue at all, and a dog somewhere just missed an opportunity to be adopted.


What "drives me crazy" is those same people will say "we need to save our money to spend on toys, beds, bowls, etc.", and not take into account the fact the rescue has done all the vetting (the most important thing) on the dogs. Bowls, beds, and toys can be purchased at Goodwill for next to nothing!

These same folks will run out and get a "free puppy" because, after all, it's a "rescue" and "nobody else wanted it so why should I 'buy' it?", a puppy that is unvetted and still have to do all the wonderful vet visits, vaccines, s/n surgery, etc. Unless their goal was to really not spend any money at all on the dog, in which case a freebie suits them fine.

Yes...we see it all in rescue and just as you got tired of it, we get tired of people who misunderstood what rescue is really all about. 
It's not about "making money" but yes, puppies can go for higher fees and again, help pay for the dogs who may not even get a fee, or whose fees cannot sustain the rescue and in fact are a drain on the rescue.

** Dogs are highly undervalued in this country which is a big part of our overpopulation problem.**
Our immediately area is stricken with this notion that unless you adopt out dogs for far less than what you're spending on them, "you're not doing it right". We raised a litter of puppies by hand, did their s/n surgeries and took them to a "local" event where we had the unmitigated gall to ask $200 for them. These were puppies who had 2 vaccines, alter surgeries, microchips, multiple dewormings starting at 2 weeks of age, and $200 was exorbitant.
We soon learned that only folks who value pets will adopt our dogs and that's fine with us. Most our adopters come from further away than 100 miles. Seattle and Portland are very dog-friendly cities were pets are seen as a member of the family, not a lawn ornament to be tossed out back until it expires, then get another.

Oh my. I need some coffee.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> Mixed breed or pure breed, I don't think it's necessary to charge upwards of $350 for most rescue dogs around here. I say most because a lot of the dogs are just owner surrenders, who have already been altered and vetted, and the "rescue" turns around and makes $300 on them. I totally understand a higher adoption fee for pets who needed any other expensive veterinary care or altering, but for an already vetted dog, that seems ridiculous to me.


Our rescue charges the same price for each dog, no matter how much they cost us. We've had dogs with extensive medical needs costing thousands of dollars, and dogs come in already vetted that literally cost us nothing. Is it fair to the dog who came in sick and injured to charge somebody a thousand dollars to adopt him, just so the dog who was already vetted can have a low adoption fee or no fee? No. If we charged fees based on how much the dog cost us, some dogs would never get adopted because we'd have to charge too much for them. The money "makers" take care of the money "drains." And believe me it takes a LOT of money "makers" to take care of a few money "drains."


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Do you not see that the "healthy 8 week old pups" fee is paying for the mother pit bull riddled with mange?? Do you think her measly $50 fee is paying for her own vetting, extended stay and meds?? It all evens out in the long run.
> 
> Try doing it yourself and see how far that $50 fee will take you when you're talking about a dog with extensive medical bills.
> 
> ...


I have rescued and fostered dogs since I was 15 years old, so I don't know why you are speaking to me in such a condescending text..I have paid out of pocket at 15 years old for the eye medication for my first foster GSD. It's why I had to get a job when I was 14 - because I was told that if you can't afford the dog, then you can't have it. 

My only problem is that rescues are turning people away who are uncomfortable paying their $300 adoption fee. When someone is willing to offer a dog a perfectly good home, but is only willing to pay half the fee, they are turned away. I realize that in the long run, regardless of which dog is healthy or unhealthy, the medical costs will outweigh the money taken in. But I have seen an amazing potential adopter turned away because they couldn't pay the initial fee, and a horrible, crappy adopter was chosen instead just because they had the money. And a year later, that same dog was returned because the owner "didn't have time for him." Then we had to pay our own money yet again to fix the behavioral problems that he developed due to lack of care he received from that home.

That's my only problem. And maybe it's just a bad experience that I had with one rescue, but when I got involved in rescue, I was told that most of the expenses were paid out of pocket because of lack of funds. I would much rather take a two hundred dollar hit and have the dog go to an amazing home than wait until I find someone willing to pay the money, when they're not really a good fit.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> But I have seen an amazing potential adopter turned away because they couldn't pay the initial fee, and a horrible, crappy adopter was chosen instead just because they had the money. And a year later, that same dog was returned because the owner "didn't have time for him."


This has nothing to do with the fee... this was a poor match made. The right thing to do in that situation would have been to wait for the right adopter who saw the value in paying the full fee.



GatorDog said:


> I would much rather take a two hundred dollar hit and have the dog go to an amazing home than wait until I find someone willing to pay the money, when they're not really a good fit.


If you did this, you'd be out of "business" in the first month. Where do you think the funds come from? Most rescues don't have $2,000 in the bank to be able to take that kind of hit.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> My only problem is that rescues are turning people away who are uncomfortable paying their $300 adoption fee. When someone is willing to offer a dog a perfectly good home, but is only willing to pay half the fee, they are turned away.


What we tell people when they come in like this, "Then look at Bonez over here, his fee is $150". If they don't like our fees, they can go to the shelter or another rescue. Why bug us about a dog who is $300 when there's dogs for much less? Why not look at the dogs in your price range??

I liken it to this - say you want a gallon of milk. You go to one store, and it's $4.00/gallon there. You know the store across the street charges $2.00/gallon. Do you go to the store manager and complain that he has $4.00/gallon milk and "you know it's _only worth_ $2.00/gallon because store B has it for that much!" or do you leave the store and go to the one across the street??


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

there are non reputable rescues same as with breeders etc.. and it can leave a bad taste in your mouth. I was with a rescue in MI and they were "less than reputable" They would guilt fosters into taking more dogs then they could would call and say "I know you have 5 fosters right now but if you don't take this entire litter they will die tomorrow because of you" There was an owner surrender of an AKC registered yellow lab and they hiked the adoption fee up quite a bit because she had papers and they flat out said they were charging extra for her papers to come with her. I agree puppies go quicker and since they are more adoptable charging a bit more however I believe it should be a bit more even we all know $50 covers nothing however if they had a flat fee say 250 for adults and 300 or 350 for puppies then thats fine in my book so long as its consistent however undercharging for an adult then over charging for a puppy might equal out over time but just not what I prefer. They do however have the bad rescues that will take in all the healthy pups then flip them consistently and making a profit from it because they never take in any sick dogs and don't do anything to keep up the dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm tired of charging flat fees for puppy litters and having all the dogs with color (as opposed to plain black) go flying out while the black litter mates sit here for weeks longer, or the females fly out faster than the males (that never ceases to amaze me).
We have ended up asking $50 more for females or colored puppies when the black siblings will not go as quickly. We still have to feed them all! 

I was griped at last night because of a $200 fee! "Way too high" is what I was told. 
You cannot make everyone happy and to begin to try to do so is the end of your mission. 

I'm curious what people think, we're going to give them a free dog, or as others said, take a hit on every dog that someone feels they cannot pay over x-amount for (that's a different cost for every person apparently) and then go broke and have to close the rescue doors?



> They do however have the bad rescues that will take in all the healthy pups then flip them consistently and making a profit from it because they never take in any sick dogs and don't do anything to keep up the dogs.


Last year we took in a Cocker that another rescue refused to take, told the finder, take it to the Humane Society (who'd have euth'ed upon arrival) "He's too old to come to rescue". So yes, they exist all over the place. This particular dog cost us way more than it should have on dental (we've since found a place who costs less for those) and he had a thyroid problem. Went out to live for another 8 mos. before he passed away suddenly in his new home. But he had a terrific 8mos., and you cannot really put a price tag on that, and another rescue telling the finder he couldn't come into rescue because of his age...I simply have no words for that


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

What a double standard. We've argued and argued on this forum over whether or not a breeder should make a profit but rescue (which is a full time job) must absolutely operate at a loss.



Holmeshx2 said:


> They do however have the bad rescues that will take in all the healthy pups then flip them consistently and making a profit from it because they never take in any sick dogs and don't do anything to keep up the dogs.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...how-distinguish-reputable-rescues-others.html

This would be a good time to remind everyone to check into a rescue that they are considering volunteering with, donating to or adopting from. Ask for 501c3 paperwork, check out previous years 990 forms.  If they don't have a 501c3, ask if it is in process. Ask where the money is going. Ask for references. Do your homework.

There are people trying to scam others in so many different aspects of life. It is the consumer's responsibility to do their research and make informed choices and to realize that just because group A is less than honest does not mean that groups B,C, D....Z are.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> What we tell people when they come in like this, "Then look at Bonez over here, his fee is $150". If they don't like our fees, they can go to the shelter or another rescue. Why bug us about a dog who is $300 when there's dogs for much less? Why not look at the dogs in your price range??
> 
> I liken it to this - say you want a gallon of milk. You go to one store, and it's $4.00/gallon there. You know the store across the street charges $2.00/gallon. Do you go to the store manager and complain that he has $4.00/gallon milk and "you know it's _only worth_ $2.00/gallon because store B has it for that much!" or do you leave the store and go to the one across the street??


Maybe I just worked with a neednewwords rescue.  They just seemed much more focused on getting dogs out and making money than finding the "right" home. My last foster through them was a corgi mix who had to have maybe 20 teeth pulled. He had some bad DA and marking behaviors, and they adopted him to a home that fed him kibble and kept him tied outside all day. He lost almost half his body weight because he couldn't eat the kibble, he got heartworm, and was just in generally horrible shape when the adopters finally returned him to us. It was the last straw for me and it broke my heart. And I always tried to say to them that if it wasn't the right home, the dog would end up coming back in the long run. Being so young, no one listened to me, so I had no choice but to leave. 

I know not all rescues are like that, but this one proved that they do exist. So I just have to caution those who are looking to rescue to make sure it is reputable. 

The daycare that I work at is riddled with pits and pit mixes because the owners "don't know why the dog is so crazy." They adopted the dog at 8 weeks from a rescue and were told it was a lab mix puppy, when it was clearly a pit bull mix and the potential adopters didn't know any better. The rescue just knows that lab mix puppies are more easily adopted than pit mix puppies. Just another excuse to get money faster. 

Maybe I just live in a crappy area for rescue. I'm learning not to like New York so much.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I don't mean that it only happens for mixed breed dogs. I think that charging that much for most any rescue dog is ridiculous if they have already been vetted. If the dog did require extra medical attention, then I absolutely understand a higher adoption fee. In my area, the rescues mostly operate with owner-surrender cases where the dogs have already been vetted or altered, and then the "rescue" turns around and makes $300 on them. Especially the puppies. They know they're going to go faster, so they hike the price up a couple hundred bucks.
> 
> The humane society here does it all the time and it makes me wild. Someone could drop of a mother pit bull from off the streets riddled with mange and kennel cough and charge a $50 adoption fee, but the perfectly healthy 8 week old puppies will be $300, and they will be adopted out in two days. So it's not like they can say they're charging that much to cover the cost of housing/feeding the puppies because they hardly spent any time there.


Clearly you have never run any kind of business, let alone a rescue.

Rescuing, caring for, and vetting animals takes money. Where do you think that money comes from? Thin air? They may spend $600 nursing four sick old dogs back to health, and only get a $65 adoption fee for each dog. Do the math. When a litter of healthy puppies comes in and they are adopted out for $300 each, THAT money is used to pay for the sick dog's vet bills. 

It would be nice if you could ask a $600 adoption fee for one of those sick old dogs to reclaim your costs, but that is unrealistic--no one will pay that fee, especially if you give healthy puppies away for next to nothing because they cost the rescue next to nothing.

This has been your Economics 101 lecture for the day.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> kept him tied outside all day.


We have an extensive screening process that weeds out people like this. If they lie, we have the right to repossess the dog. 
We don't adopt to people who keep dogs outside all day except in certain circumstances like if they work and the dog is a quieter one, and they have a dog door (for instance). 
If people do not want a house-dog they probably won't get one of ours - not because we "believe in house dogs only", but because most our rescues had exposure to and/or lived in houses and to ban them from houses would be devastating to them.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Clearly you have never run any kind of business, let alone a rescue.
> 
> Rescuing, caring for, and vetting animals takes money. Where do you think that money comes from? Thin air? They may spend $600 nursing four sick old dogs back to health, and only get a $65 adoption fee for each dog. Do the math. When a litter of healthy puppies comes in and they are adopted out for $300 each, THAT money is used to pay for the sick dog's vet bills.
> 
> ...


Interesting...DID I EVER SAY I HAVE RUN A BUSINESS OR RESCUE? You honestly don't need to be so condescending. 

I'd like to be educated on the way one works by someone who has done it. Feel free. But I was simply sharing the experiences that I have had with rescues in my area. They flip dogs for money and don't care what happens to them once the dogs are out of their hands. To *ME* (and I'm saying ME because it is what *I *think is important) the overall well being of a dog is more important than the money spent. 

There are sh***y breeders out there and sh***y rescues to. They DO exist. That's all I'm trying to say.

I absolutely wish that all rescues could at least make back the money that they put in to the dogs that they have saved. I never once said that they shouldn't.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> We have an extensive screening process that weeds out people like this. If they lie, we have the right to repossess the dog.
> We don't adopt to people who keep dogs outside all day except in certain circumstances like if they work and the dog is a quieter one, and they have a dog door (for instance).
> If people do not want a house-dog they probably won't get one of ours - not because we "believe in house dogs only", but because most our rescues had exposure to and/or lived in houses and to ban them from houses would be devastating to them.



All I'm saying is that if OP was indeed interested in adopting, they need to find rescues like yours. Not like the one I worked with. They gave dogs away to anyone as long as they could pay the adoption fee, and that's obviously not the most important part of rescuing an animal.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> What a double standard. We've argued and argued on this forum over whether or not a breeder should make a profit but rescue (which is a full time job) must absolutely operate at a loss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hold on a second let me defend what I was saying because it obviously did not come across properly. I'm not talking about a rescue making a profit in general I'm talking about the "rescues" who actually do it to MAKE money the ones that take the free dogs from CL saying they are a rescue then turning around and selling the pup for a profit never doing anything besides give them some crappy kibble for 2 days while the dog is with them. The "rescues" that do not work or do anything besides take healthy desirable dogs or puppies in and do nothing, don't vaccinate, don't get vet checked, don't fix them, don't do anything just up the price and send them out.

A good rescue I have no problem making a profit however I also know it's near impossible for a good rescue to do. They pay for vetting, take on hard cases that take tons of money to treat, get the dogs fixed, pay for food etc.. and the only way to break even or even make some sort of a profit is to charge a higher fee and then most of society will not pay the higher fee because its a rescue or a "throw away" and they shouldn't have to pay that fee for a dog no one wanted. 

To me it's the same as a breeder you are paying for their breeding practice not so much the dog I have no problem paying the prices a rescue charges including giving extra as a "donation" for all they do and to help them continue but in today's society most people unfortunately don't think that way. IMO it doesn't matter if it's a breeder or a rescue it takes money to do it right but even with breeders people don't want to spend extra money for an older dog from a breeder because they view it as "damaged" if its been returned to the breeder they don't think the breeder deserves the asking price for it even though the breeder has to do training on it (after all no one wants an ill behaved older dog) they have to feed it make sure its UTD on everything fix any issues the previous owner may have caused etc..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know that many people pay less for a dog and cherish it. However, if they cannot come up with the fee to adopt it, how in the world are they going to come up with an unexpected veterinary expense. 

One time, I took snow plowing for my home and my parents in trade for a puppy. The owner was good about doing the plowing. However, the recently called me and told me that since they moved the dog has started itching, and is now losing its hair. They think it has mange. I told them to take the dog to the vet. They will not have the money to do so until after their income taxes come back. 

I really do not care where you get your dog from, the fact is that sooner or later your dog will need veterinary care that is not the well-dog exam and vaccinations. And there is more, when people value what you do for the dog, and expect to compensate/reimburse something for dog, it says something about their accepting responsibility. 

Giving dogs away for less or nothing because the great home is too good to lose, is really not always in the dog's best interest. Some people want something for nothing, some people value a dog less if it is free or cheap. Not everyone, but some people do. Our pound gives them away for $25 -- small dogs and puppies are a little more. People like my brother take these dogs and let them run free on their property and get smooshed in the road. They do not learn after Dog 1 gets smooshed. They just go back to the pound and shell out another $25. They let Dog 1 exist for YEARS with a dislocated hip from the accident because they cannot afford to pay for a vet to deal with the problem. And Dog 2 dies when it gets smooshed in the road. 

But they are better than me, because the rescue ALL their dogs from the pound.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, poorly run, unethical and truly awful rescues do exist. Like GSDRaven said, you need to really look at things before you go to adopt or go to volunteer. Just like with purchasing a dog from a breeder. We are doing a better job of educating people in these areas but it's a process. 

As for the vetting, I absolutely hate to say it but I have seen/heard what Rebel is referring to. In a few ways:
1. Vets who have worked with rescues who do a poor job overall - adopting dogs out with parvo and seeing it on the adopter end when the adopter brings an unhealthy dog in - so think that all rescues do not vet their animals. 
2. Vets who think you treat a rescue dog as less - because "you can't save them all" and wants to PTS a dog that has an issue that, in your own dog, you would treat. Not something like cancer, I'm talking pneumonia. 
3. Vets who say they need to prioritize treatment, appointments and meds for pets of "paying customers" even when the rescue brings in far more complicated and expensive cases and pays more than a typical pet owner (unless that typical pet owner has 50 new dogs a year that need some kind of care). 
4. Vets who will say well, yeah, it's a rescue, about a foster when talking about care planning, with that meaning, yeah, you don't want the same level of care for the *basics* as you would your own dog. 
5. Don't get me started on emergency vets. The triage...I will not say this is the case for all...but I believe is skewed against non-owned dogs, and it makes sense if you think about it. It's not right, but if you think about being responsive to a client...

Many of you may not have seen this because you are not taking multiple dogs, that are not your own (meaning foster dogs) to multiple vets. In a rescue with fosters spread out, you can see this more clearly. Some of it is individual vet personality and some of it is systemic. 

On the other hand, I have not seen it at Cornell University nor have I seen it systemically in my own vet office. My own vet office loves fosters and rescues and wants to be a part of all the dogs we bring in. The new vets are learning expectations and I hope that we are educating them that while these dogs may not have one owner right now, they are our dogs when they are in our care, and will be treated as such.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Interesting...DID I EVER SAY I HAVE RUN A BUSINESS OR RESCUE? You honestly don't need to be so condescending.
> 
> I'd like to be educated on the way one works by someone who has done it. Feel free.


You seem to have an issue about others being "condescending" when we are simply trying to educate you--when you are disparaging rescues who ask $350 adoption fees, it shows a lack of understanding. 

Yes, of course there are bad rescues out there, no one is arguing that there isn't. But asking higher adoption fees for more desireable animals does not make a rescue "bad". It makes them money, which they desperately need.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If a rescue accepts donations as a not for profit business, then they should not make a profit. I think it would be next to impossible to make a profit as a rescue if you are doing it halfway decent. There are scoundrels doing just about everything though, so I am sure there are people who are making money rescuing, but they are such a minority, they are really not worth mentioning, save to understand that they exist, just so that inadvertantly you do not support them, or send dogs to them.

Profiting off of an individual dog, charging $200 or $300 for a dog that ended up costing a total of $110, I see no problem at all with that. That money will get sucked up in helping another dog, and the alternative would be putting dogs to sleep that could be reasonably cared for because they do not have a prayer at finding an adopter willing to pay the accumulated total of their vet care, etc. If Dog A and Dog B both go to their respective new owners, vetted and altered, than why should it matter that dog A costed the rescue 110 and dog B costed the rescue 590, and each costed their owners $350. Only we all know that it is not as clean as that. 

For every dog that is fully vetted for $100 or less, there are probably a score or more that cost way more. 

People who run rescues put their heart and their money into it. I would not be surprised if helping dogs has bankrupted some of them. And others become totally overwhelmed and end up over their head with just the number of dogs they care for. And people grumble about $200 or $350. Kind of sad really.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> 3. Vets who say they need to prioritize treatment, appointments and meds for pets of "paying customers" even when the rescue brings in far more complicated and expensive cases and pays more than a typical pet owner (unless that typical pet owner has 50 new dogs a year that need some kind of care).


We recently had this problem. We've since changed vets


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You seem to have an issue about others being "condescending" when we are simply trying to educate you--when you are disparaging rescues who ask $350 adoption fees, it shows a lack of understanding.
> 
> Yes, of course there are bad rescues out there, no one is arguing that there isn't. But asking higher adoption fees for more desireable animals does not make a rescue "bad". It makes them money, which they desperately need.


If you are trying to educate then you should consider wording your responses differently, and not putting words in my mouth. I never said I ran a rescue or business, so why would you even put that in your response?

I am saying that rescues focused on money alone are bad news. A $350 adoption fee means nothing if you're adopting the dog out to a home that isn't qualified to care for that dog.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I can't remember what I paid for my rescue, I think it was 300, then I spent over 1000 just for the Vet in the 4 months she was in my home. 

Do I feel guilty buying my dog? Nope.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We just tell people we'll charge less when we get all our dog food donated (like many shelters) and even vet care donated (like some shelters) because I've heard "you only pay $100 at the Humane society!" 
A simple vet visit could run $100 and easily run much more for an injury or illness. If you can barely afford a $100 fee, how will you pay for if the dog needs to see a vet?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree that some of the posts here seem condescending - making general statements instead of making "you" statements goes a long way in allowing a post to be educational, and not confrontational (hint, hint). 

People need to be aware that not all rescues are created equal, just like not all breeders are created equal - but in both cases, whether a person chooses to buy a dog or rescue a dog, that is their choice, one that fits into their present wants and needs and circumstances, and the topic of this thread. So would be nice if we could leave the rescue comparison out of it, and get back to people sharing their thoughts about feeling guilty (or NOT feeling guilty) if one decides to buy a dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Josie/Zeus said:


> I can't remember what I paid for my rescue, I think it was 300, then I spent over 1000 just for the Vet in the 4 months she was in my home.
> 
> Do I feel guilty buying my dog? Nope.


Awww, what happened to her?

Sue Selzer, yes, on all and just got an email forward yesterday a lady in GA was trying to wind down the rescue, but got a drop off of a mom and pups in a ditch...so needed help getting them vetted. It's like organized crime, but without the money and (thankfully!) violence - you try to get out, but they just keep pulling you back in.

To get on topic, I would have no need to buy a dog. I have at my access (and through good rescue, our good applicants do as well) literally thousands of dogs, GSDs and other, throughout the north/south east at any time of the year. If I can't find one to fit me in that giant pool...I'm in trouble. I am VERY hopeful that by the time I want to add another GSD, that my access will be severely limited because there will be so many fewer dogs in the shelters, but still know that no matter what I want and what I want to do, I could still find one, and that will be what I will do. For me, this is who I am as a person and in my life. I can understand people wanting to buy from truly great breeders to get exactly what they want. What stinks is when people buy from what they think is a good breeder (based on their info at the time) and do not come close to getting what they want. Or go through a bad experience in rescue that does the same.


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

The Animal Rescue League asked for a donation of $115 when I adopted Viktor... but I gave them more because his medicals, which they covered, were so extensive.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Awww, what happened to her?


I rehomed her to my friends sister (she had an older GSD as well), she needed to be in a home with no children. She is a pampered queen in her home now. 

If she didn't have an issue with the baby, she'd still be in my home. She went from barely 40 lbs to almost 60 lbs. when I rehomed her. She's very happy in her home now.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me obtaining a dog is not JUST about me and my dogs. It's not just about how much I want to pay to whom and for what. For me, loving GSDs is about more than simply owning a few of them but about my interpretation of the breed and the direction it is going. I want to select dogs that I feel are good representatives of the breed. That is why I take years carefully selecting dogs and breeders. It's not just about getting a healthy dog for my family but what lines I'm willing to put my money down on. I want to train them and showcase them to the best of my abilities and their potential (usually the former being the lowest common denominator). There may be a time in the distant future when I will breed or own dogs available for breeding. I'm not saying rescues can't be ambassadors for the breed but they can't move the breed forward. No sane rescue is going to adopt out breeding prospects.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

YAY! That's good for everyone, J/Z. 

No sane rescue, that's for sure!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> I agree that some of the posts here seem condescending - making general statements instead of making "you" statements goes a long way in allowing a post to be educational, and not confrontational (hint, hint).
> 
> People need to be aware that not all rescues are created equal, just like not all breeders are created equal - but in both cases, whether a person chooses to buy a dog or rescue a dog, that is their choice, one that fits into their present wants and needs and circumstances, and the topic of this thread. So would be nice if we could leave the rescue comparison out of it, and get back to people sharing their thoughts about feeling guilty (or NOT feeling guilty) if one decides to buy a dog.



:thumbup:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

On the flip side, no sane breeder will be seeking breeding prospects on Petfinder.
Not saying it doesn't happen...just that no sane breeder would be doing it!! 
:rofl:


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Rebel, it sounds like you just have a huge chip on your shoulder. It's just funny to me because I have observed the opposite in everyday life. It seems now that people who purchase dogs from ethical breeders are bullied and made to feel guilty and horrible by rescuers and lumped in the same category as people who purchase dogs from backyard greeders and pet stores. I get interrogated by rescue nut cases nearly every time I bring my intact doberman to a dog event! Even when people don't approach me with questions, I feel their eyes burning in the back of my skull when they see my intact dog. So many of them jump on the bandwagon and think they are superior and get on a power trip because they saved a dog's life. I am very involved in dog rescue and witness this! I am just rational and logical, many people in rescue are jaded and emotionally unstable, they lose themselves in it and there is no balance in their lives.


THANK-YOU!

It makes me angry because I _know_ not all rescuers are like that. I have met some wonderful rescuers on this forum and in person. I don't think a lot of _those_ kinds of rescuers even stop to think about what it feels like to be in my shoes (again, the people on this forum do think about it). They just think that I bought my dog from an evil breeder because I don't have a big enough heart for rescue. 

That bothers me because I have rescued animals my whole life. I volunteered at a horse rescue for years where it was actually an extremely dangerous job. Every day I went in I risked injury because these thousand-pound animals have been severely hurt by someone and are lashing out because they are afraid of being touched. It was absolutely heart breaking to see them like that, and heart warming to see some of them make a recovery and return to their old selves. Yet because I bought a dog instead of rescuing one, I'm evil. 

More and more often in person I get an attitude from people who think that *anyone* who buys from a breeder just bought the animal to brag and show it off and doesn't actually care about the animal. They interrogate you, roll their eyes at you, glare daggers into your head, talk about you behind your back, etc.

I'm tired of being treated like I'm this inferior person because of where I got my dog. I love my dog. I understand that it's hard to watch people buy from breeders when there are so many animals in shelters, but do you honestly think that everyone in the world is the right sort of person to adopt? Many animals that are adopted need to be handled with care. They may not be severely abused, but they need to be cared for. I wanted to rescue an older cat whose owner had died, but I decided it would be too risky with my current two cats. He needed a home where the love would be focused on him. And as for dogs, I was barred from adopting or fostering because I don't have a fenced back yard. There were some shelters that would adopt out to me, but they did not have German Shepherds. 




Holmeshx2 said:


> OMG THANK YOU!!! I have noticed this big time. I was doing SAR with Jinx and everyone said she was the best on the team, had the most drive etc... even the trainer was blown away by her however CONSTANTLY talked bad about her because she was "bought" and it was so bad. We had a news reporter come out to do a story on the team and she even talked about how all of the dogs were throw aways on their last days of life and now are saving lives etc... then goes and starts bad mouthing Jinx because she's the only one on the team who was bought from a breeder etc... Im constantly dealing with people talking junk because Jinx was not a rescue however as we speak I have a foster pup laying across my lap fast asleep on the couch with me.


I'm so afraid of this happening to me! In some areas rescue is extremely common leaving the people with purebreds to be the odd ducks out. Then the rescues judge them. And it makes me angry 



selzer said:


> I know that many people pay less for a dog and cherish it. However, if they cannot come up with the fee to adopt it, how in the world are they going to come up with an unexpected veterinary expense.
> 
> One time, I took snow plowing for my home and my parents in trade for a puppy. The owner was good about doing the plowing. However, the recently called me and told me that since they moved the dog has started itching, and is now losing its hair. They think it has mange. I told them to take the dog to the vet. They will not have the money to do so until after their income taxes come back.
> 
> I really do not care where you get your dog from, the fact is that sooner or later your dog will need veterinary care that is not the well-dog exam and vaccinations. And there is more, when people value what you do for the dog, and expect to compensate/reimburse something for dog, it says something about their accepting responsibility.


This. I once knew a girl with two horses. She leased one out to a family for free so their girl could ride. The family, surprise surprise, didn't handle the horse properly and the horse injured its leg. She needed x-rays. They were a mere $500. The girl said she couldn't afford it, and then asked the forum we were both on to donate money to save her horse. I made a post saying she should not have bought two horses if she couldn't even afford a measly _x-ray_ for one of them. I mean, the x-ray is only the beginning. What if the horse broke her leg? What if the horse was lame? What if the horse was sick or had a sprain? How the heck did she expect to pay for that treatment? Was she intending to borrow that money too? 

I cannot stand people like that. Take responsibility for your animals. If you can't even afford routine care or afford a vet to find out what's _wrong_ with your pet in the first place, you shouldn't have gotten one. Period. 



> Giving dogs away for less or nothing because the great home is too good to lose, is really not always in the dog's best interest.


^^^^^



> But they are better than me, because the rescue ALL their dogs from the pound.


Ugh, yes




Castlemaid said:


> I agree that some of the posts here seem condescending - making general statements instead of making "you" statements goes a long way in allowing a post to be educational, and not confrontational (hint, hint).


:thumbup:


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## fast93 (Jan 16, 2012)

I, like a lot of others on here, have both rescued, and purchased from breeders.

Our current GSDs are both rescues, with the latest one being taken in over the weekend. We gave a lot of thought to purchasing a puppy this time, but decided that our current lifestyle wouldn't provide a blank canvas with all of the tools he/she would need to grow up "right".....so we opted for a mature dog that needed a good home and companions, and I'm glad we did. 

There's no right or wrong answer here just a personal preference.


BTW, I am starting to feel like trying to adopt is becoming more and more of a hassle. Within the last couple of weeks I spoke to a local GS rescue and was told that it was required that I get training with the dog I was looking to adopt *FROM* the rescue. I explained to them that I'd rather use someone that was closer to me and that I was more familiar with and was told that in that case, I would not qualify for the adoption! Obviously, I told her to drop dead. lol.  

I was also told by another rescue that I could not adopt from them because they saw that I had a kennel in my backyard.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Money is the main reason why I had to stop rescuing about 5yrs ago. I did rescue solely on my own and was not 501c3. I had a separate bank account for keeping rescue money separate from my money which was where all adoption fees went and where I pulled money from to pay pull fees, vet bills and transport costs. I had to keep moving my own money over to that account because the adoption were not even letting me break even let alone have a little extra for the next dog. When I had kids is when I had to stop because I simply no longer had "extra" money that I could funnel into that account in order to keep rescuing. I tried the flat adoption fees at first and was losing so much that I went to charging more for puppies and still didn't have enough to support it. Not being a non profit meant I could not ask for donations so I stopped doing rescue. I am hopeful that once I finish my bachelor's degree this summer (I have gotten nowhere with my associate's degree in vet tech, completed in 2007) I can get a higher paying job to once again have extra money to be able to start rescuing once more. 

I am trying to raise my daughter to rescue dogs as well. For Christmas 2010 I took her to a dog pound and let her pick one puppy to rescue. She helped me with getting the puppy, whom she named Ollie, ready for adoption by getting him vet checked, vaccinated, microchipped and neutered. Then I went over applications for him with her and we met one woman who really stood out as being the right one for him. Bianca and I delivered him to his new home and she gets e-mail updates on him all the time which makes her happy. That was her first rescue and I hope she and I can do more in the future. She was sad about him leaving at first, but I kept explaining to her what rescue was about and she eventually got it. She wants to go save more already so now I have to tell her to save her money so she can - we paid for Ollie's care out of her savings money. I of course put the money back into her savings, but she doesn't know that!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I don't think anyone should feel guilty. I admit I do lean more towards rescues, but I see no reason to go to a breeder. I do think people need to get out of the mindset some seem to have with rescues. Bad experiences happen all around. One bad experience with a rescue dog coming into the home doesn't qualify the response of "rescue dogs are all unknown and you will never know..." blah blah blah. 

But I see no reason to feel guilty if one does their research.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> If you are trying to educate then you should consider wording your responses differently, and not putting words in my mouth. I never said I ran a rescue or business, so why would you even put that in your response?


I was commenting on why you might have a lack of understanding. If you don't understand the ins and outs of how a business (or nonprofit) is run, you might want to gain some understanding before you criticize adoption fees.



> I am saying that rescues focused on money alone are bad news. A $350 adoption fee means nothing if you're adopting the dog out to a home that isn't qualified to care for that dog.


Everyone knows that, and no one is arguing that point. What I was addressing is the fact that high adoption fees in and of themselves bother you. Where would you suggest rescues get the funding to take care of unwanted animals, if not from adoption fees?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

The rescue I help just shelled out 1500 dollars on a surgery for a dog...his adoption fee to his new home was....250 I think. Thats not including other dogs with other issues.

So people can be upset about a high fee if they wish to be, but for most *good* rescues, we are lucky if it gets is breaking even sometimes. (kinda like with a good breeder)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> One bad experience with a rescue dog coming into the home doesn't qualify the response of "rescue dogs are all unknown and you will never know..." blah blah blah.


Exactly...and I'm seeing the same generalizations (no rescue would adopt to me, I was turned down, they charge too much, etc.) about rescues that people who buy from breeders, and breeders themselves hate, such as "all breeders are bad/bybs". Even slams against the people rescuing (mental cases, etc.)! 
Each should be judged on it's own merit, not on past experiences.

If you don't like being judged, then don't do it yourself. That's a collective "you", not a specific being.


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## Alphak9 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think there is no reason why you should feel guilty just to buy a GSD. This is just a different perception in getting a dog. Adopting a rescue is considered a good deed while buying one is just satisfying your temptation. Either way, it's not a big deal.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'll tell you a little secret, but you have to promise not to let JeanKBBMMMAAN find out. When Rosa was being fostered she was very sick and needed a lot of meds to get healthy again, plus her spay. Now, I don't recall what we paid for her adoption fee, but we were so much in love with her, we would have paid whatever her vet bill was (which was well above what her adoption fee was).


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

fast93 said:


> I, like a lot of others on here, have both rescued, and purchased from breeders.
> 
> Our current GSDs are both rescues, with the latest one being taken in over the weekend. We gave a lot of thought to purchasing a puppy this time, but decided that our current lifestyle wouldn't provide a blank canvas with all of the tools he/she would need to grow up "right".....so we opted for a mature dog that needed a good home and companions, and I'm glad we did.
> 
> There's no right or wrong answer here just a personal preference.


I honestly think that's what it will come down to for me, where I am exactly in my life and what kind or age dog will fit my lifestyle best at the time. I won't be buying a puppy if I can't raise it the way I feel it should be properly raised and a rescue may be a great path for me to take. Either way I'm sure I'll end up with a great GSD. 

I certainly didn't foresee this thread taking off in this direction but I've read through what everyone thinks about reputable rescues/breeders and vets, etc. It's interesting to see the wide range of experiences and opinions.


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## wildwolf60 (Apr 13, 2001)

I have done both, I love rescuing GSDs that need a good home, but I miss having a puppy around to raise. That said, our hours at work prohibit having a young puppy anymore. We used to be able to rotate taking care of a puppy, but we just can't now with the jobs we have. So, it's adult dogs that we adopt now. If I ever retire, (that's far away unless i win the lottery) I wouldn't mind having a puppy again. It's such a joy to watch them grow..
But we love our adoptees, it's really wonderful to watch their personalities unfold and flourish in a secure environment. 
Hmm, maybe i could adopt a puppy sometime!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good_Karma said:


> I'll tell you a little secret, but you have to promise not to let JeanKBBMMMAAN find out. When Rosa was being fostered she was very sick and needed a lot of meds to get healthy again, plus her spay. Now, I don't recall what we paid for her adoption fee, but we were so much in love with her, we would have paid whatever her vet bill was (which was well above what her adoption fee was).



Watching the muppet thread unfold as it was, from the very beginning with the three puppies, I probably would have paid anything for one of the pups too. I still check for updates regularly and googled Rocco, LOL. And I know it hasn't been a cake walk, even after they went home. But, I always feel sad when people seem to see their dogs with the ever present dollar signs. Once a year I tally the books, and divide it by the number of dogs I have, sigh, and forget it completely. 

Though it should be the other way around, my dogs give me very much more than I can ever pay for.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Vets who think you treat a rescue dog as less - because "you can't save them all" and wants to PTS a dog that has an issue that, in your own dog, you would treat. Not something like cancer, I'm talking pneumonia.


It's always sad. It can be tragic. Over 16 yrs ago I took Herbie & Gonzo, my newly acquired kittens, to the vet & was informed the flea infestation they came with was life threatening due to their age & poor condition. They were also underweight & had been inappropriately fed. And they were suffering from an infection or 2. The vet put chances of survival at 30-50%. Treatment? Antibiotics, nutritional supplements, wet food with added cream & a safe, effective flea powder. (The stuff I'd been using almost killed Herbie. When I said it was described as safe for kittens the vet grimly told me that meant HEALTHY kittens, which mine weren't.) Total cost including the follow up vet visit was $60-$150. This June they will be 17. Herbie is doing well. Gonzo is GRRRREAT. As much as I love 'em, especially (tbh) Gonzo, it's in one way a bitter, bitter memory that brings me to tears thinking about it.

Years earlier, (I was 14 or 15), we found 5 kittens, mother presumably dead. Cleaned 'em up, picked maggots from their flesh (& perhaps shouldn't have), dressed their wounds, fed 'em from bottles & eye droppers. Frantic calls to our vet yielded no information. A visit also rec'd no real help but the sage advice they'd either live or not. Herbie, my heart kitty, was especially weak & required ongoing care so he came to work with me & on dates. Another vet visit yielded yet the same pearls...he'd either make it or not. A family friend, recently returned from Nam, informed me Herbie was dying...He had pneumonia. I didn't want to believe it & made yet another non-productive vet visit. (I'd frantically called around town but no other vet would see an underaged kid with a stray kitten, even a paying underaged kid. The only vet who'd agree to see him was our regular vet) Desperately struggling to breathe Herbie died in my hands some days later. Years later a mere $60-150 of common sense antibiotic & nutritional treatment saved Herbie & Gonzo. Perhaps it wouldn't have saved Herbie but we should have been given the chance. He only charged $15 total for all visits. I suspect he felt he was doing me a 'favor' b/c why waste money on a worthless stray? To this day it breaks my heart that my scrappy, oh so valiant, little Herbie was denied even a very affordable chance.

No vet should ever withhold options & information however 'good' they believe they're being. It sickens me that for only a few lousy stinking bucks my little Herbie could have had a chance but the vet was too nice & concerned to 'burden' me (or Dad) with that.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

MegansGrace said:


> I kind of hinted at this in a post in a response to a separate thread, but I was wondering what your opinions were about buying vs adopting/rescuing. When I say buying, I'm referring to from a reputable breeder, and you can take rescue however you'd like.
> 
> *With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog? *
> 
> I know I struggle with this myself so I was just wondering what your thoughts on the subject where. I bought my Lab and would really like to buy a GSD in the future. We've always rescued dogs in the past and I've been really tempted to rescue a 2nd dog while I've been in vet school (you can only imagine). I'm kind of holding out for my future shepherd though.


Yes, I have felt and been made to feel guilty about purchasing my GSD from a reputable breeder instead of rescuing. I guess it depends on your circumstances and feelings. My first dog passed away from old age but had DM. My living elderly male has severe hip dysplasia ( born with it) and has severe DM now. He is on Dr. Clemmons regimine. We chose to purchase another pup for our male to bring him out of his depression and because we missed having two around, but we were and are so heart-broken over watching them suffer and feeling so helpless and the secondary astronomical vet bills had really cut a huge chunk out of our finances ( about $4,000 trying to find out what was wrong and how we could help our Brandy, who passed) and buying a wheelcart for our male so he can enjoy life and walks as well as medication and vitamins for the DM. Don;t get me wrong, we got our dogs and we would do just about anything to help them, give them operations, provide them with the best as they are part of our family but we just decided to purchase a working breed GSD due to better health and hips. We were worn out in every way and it was best for our household. I am considering a rescue in the future. Wish we had the resources and the room for both.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

MegansGrace said:


> *With all the dogs out there do you ever feel guilty buying a well bred dog for $1200-1500? Do you rationalize it as you know what you're getting in terms of a dog? *


Nope, I don't feel guilty about buying a dog instead of rescuing. I'm not the one that abandoned all those homeless dogs, so I have nothing to feel guilty about.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm a strong believer in rescuing a dog. My 4 month old was a rescue in every sense of the word..I paid a very minimal rehoming fee, got a dog that was completely mixed up, no where near house trained, ear infections, and worms. After about a month of on going training and treating medical issues, I have to say I got myself a good dog and I saved her life. Do I know her lineage? Nope, all I know is her parents were guard dogs. Do I have papers for her? Nope, but she is a pet so I don't care. Do I love her and she loves me? You bet your bottom. Would I pay $1000 for a dog out the door, nope, but when I look at her I think to myself if I knew what I was getting there would not be a price I wouldn't pay for her Just a note I have also bought a dog(golden retriever) with papers from a breeder(for a very minimal price also), but other then him 7 out of 8 of my animals are rescues and I still don't feel like I've done enough.In the end all a dog wants is to be loved and it doesn't matter where the dog comes from.


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## Alishan86 (Oct 30, 2011)

Bud is my first dog. I got him from a breeder since I did not know where to get a GSD.... but in the future I'll get one from a rescue since I wont have to spend a grand !


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I did both, just not the right when it came to buying the dog.lol. My family and I(now I know better) bought Molly for $25 from a BYB/oops litter. My family and I adopted Tanner from a reputable shelter for $115. Both dogs are healthy, awesome, amazing, lovable, silly, funny, and great all around dogs. I love them both very much and wouldn't trade them for the world. 

I volunteer for a shelter and rescue so I will always adopt. I do indeed plan on purchasing dogs in the future. I would much rather give my money to a GOOD rescue, shelter, or ethical breeder than a byb/puppy mill/greeder/BAD rescue or shelter. I will give my money to a program where I know MY money will go towards something good and not into someone's pocket. 

Spend your money wisely.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I did both, just not the right when it came to buying the dog.lol. My family and I(now I know better) bought Molly for $25 from a BYB/oops litter. My family and I adopted Tanner from a reputable shelter for $115. Both dogs are healthy, awesome, amazing, lovable, silly, funny, and great all around dogs. I love them both very much and wouldn't trade them for the world.
> 
> I volunteer for a shelter and rescue so I will always adopt. I do indeed plan on purchasing dogs in the future. I would much rather give my money to a GOOD rescue, shelter, or ethical breeder than a byb/puppy mill/greeder/BAD rescue or shelter. I will give my money to a program where I know MY money will go towards something good and not into someone's pocket.
> 
> Spend your money wisely.


When I handed over the money for my Doberman puppy to the breeder she told me she had an appointment the next day at A&M and the money would be used for more genetic health testing for her dogs. I knew I went with the right breeder!


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## ThisMachine (Jan 25, 2012)

*Please help*

First time owner here.Was wondering if anyone could tell me something about the decendancy of my 5 month old.i only have one picture so just basic observations are welcome.any input would be helpful.thank you!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> When I handed over the money for my Doberman puppy to the breeder she told me she had an appointment the next day at A&M and the money would be used for more genetic health testing for her dogs. I knew I went with the right breeder!


Great example! I would support this type of breeder!


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## MamaTank (Nov 27, 2011)

I would buy a dog from a reputable breeder is I was going to show or title a dog. However, since all I wanted from my GSD was a pet, I adopted. Well, from Craigslist (Free to good home-- moving in with fiance who was deathly allergic to dogs). I adopted a 6 year old (now 7) WGSD. He came with a heap of health issues and allergies, but we love him, and wouldn't change our choice. I know my next dog is coming from a breeder--already found a reputable breeder, but have to wait at least 2 years til the next breeding--, but only because I will be showing it. (Not GSD.)


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