# Teaching aggression - need advice



## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

I've tried getting advice on documenting something on two other places and have basicly been told MYOB. Protecting my dogs IS my business...as is IMO seeing a red zone dog created. But will take me out of it and would like to hear what *you* think and what *you* would do. I will add here I have a life and do not spend it watching anyone else - but due to *their* complaints of my dogs barking I move quicker than before when they bark...and it is *NEVER WITHOUT REASON*. 

Yesterday afternoon you check your dog that barked and see a (teenager) kid in a pen in back with the pup...thnking he was playing with her before leaving her in there...until you saw *another pit pup* looking much like her in the pen, facing off. There's no video camera available and no one would believe a quiet little town with most people gone would have anything illegal happen. He shoves one towards another with a foot, couldn't see what the 2 were doing but their other mutt was acting like he was about to see a fight. He kept looking around as if to see if he was being watched - then came and tied her back up at the same place (where she can tresspass). 

This morning a different dog, chained to the back deck to keep him from getting to the fence where above dog is lounging (on our property) - as bringing the small dog in look up to see *YES* **TWO** dogs. One was tied within range of the female. The kid handler roughs them up playing then when they're biting legs and arms says "GOOD DOGS!". When they begin snapping at each other for attention he backs off "GOOD DOGS!!" until the GSmix moves in to break it up. He kicks the GS repeatedly saying "NO leave him alone!" (GS has some issues broiling too). 

Then puts one bowl of food down...in range of both then after letting them eat boots it over to the female - which of course leaves the male lunging, snapping, snarling and frustrated out of his mind. He's smiling and saying "GOOD BOY!!" repeatedly. Then pushing the female to him. 

this is in a small town - no one is around during the day' the back side of the property is now a store so no one can see from there or from the front or clearly from the street one house down the other way...which leaves your yard as the main one that gets to see this. 

There isn't fighting - yet. You're expressly forbidden from saying anything to the "children". 


If this male months later gets ahold of my very non-fighting sheltie or even the GSD what kind of chance do you really think my sheltie stands of living or the GSD of not being badly injured? 

There was also fighting roosters kept at the residence last year - removed due to complaints of crowing...they complained their pets for eggs were made to leave. Ever see a rooster lay an egg? No one else saw that either but the crowing resulted in them forced to move. 
The dogs don't crow...and even with the agression make no noise. 

So you approach 2 groups of dog people asking for help and advice and get MYOB. Suffice to say the dogs involved are higher on the BSL list than GSD. Suffice to say informing the insurance of it is not an option because - well - we have a GSD. Animal control is unlikely to do anything because of one report, the dog hasn't done anything yet and - well no one else sees it. 

I don't especially want people crawling on my property either. If there wasn't already a property line issue building and I had the extra $$ I'd HAPPILY put up a solid 8' fence and be done with it...the line is an issue because I'm trying to plant shrubs on our side of the line and one of these dogs is tied to an overhead line so she's most of the time on our property where the shrubs are going. 

Ignore it? Chalk it up to difference of opinion? Listen to insults about how much you don't know about dogs? 
What would you do?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:What would you do?


After reading that?! Buy the biggest shotgun I could find, pull up a rocking chair, and make it a point to sit outside in full view of those kooks, shining it nonchalantly, day in and day out.

Seriously though, I'd start videotaping them without them knowing, then start mailing off copies of the tapes to the town mayor, the local news, the local police, the sheriffs, the not-so-local news, the governor, then go up the food chain until someone does something. This can only end badly.

Oh, and perhaps move.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMAfter reading that?! Buy the biggest shotgun I could find, pull up a rocking chair, and make it a point to sit outside in full view of those kooks, shining it nonchalantly, day in and day out.
> 
> Seriously though, I'd start videotaping them without them knowing, then start mailing off copies of the tapes to the town mayor, the local news, the local police, the sheriffs, the not-so-local news, the governor, then go up the food chain until someone does something.


Sound advice on both parts. I'd get at least two cameras mounted - one to cover that area and one to cover the ground between your house and theirs. Never EVER leave your dogs outside unattended.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

All it would take is for the video to hit the local news....in a larger town that actually cares. I also live in a small town and would never report to the local media, I would however go to the nearest tv station that would be likely to report on it or even do their own investigation.

Oh, and if you do mount survelience cameras there is nothing wrong with using the video used to protect your property...and if you just happen to tape illegal activity. well too bad they were that stupid.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

Part 2 then - is there a chance of it being turned around for videotaping a minor without consent? This is a teenager old enough to know better - but the last thing I need is a pedophile charge because of some loophole. The parents will almost surely deny anything and are not out there. 

It'd mean $200 for a camera as I don't have one - or a cell phone...and will mean certain death of these dogs if confiscated. The only positive I see is it removes the dogs from being teased (even if to death) and prevents a possible mauling. But no winners


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Are there any pit bull rescues near you? they may have some suggestions, I surely believe they would not want any dog remotely connected to pit bulls to be one more tragedy


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

I know of some rescues but not pitbull rescues. But the people will not give them up; and if taken by force as authorities will do they will be taken to the shelter and will be put down because no pitbulls are allowed to leave the shelter to other homes because of the fighting problem - they don't want the dogs ending up bait or fighters. I do remember an article on that last year at the height of the Michael Vick thing...and these are pitbulls. 

I was trying to leave breed out because IMO breed does not matter - aggression is aggression. But we know aggression in certain breeds is viewed differently than in others. Last summer he mentioned the one had a grand champion pedigree and at the time it didn't click - I have a show dog so am thinking show. I find a far more sinister reference to "grand champion pedigree". 

I cannot in good conscience remove this dog, even though IMO it'd be best for her/them....they haven't been totally ruined. But alas it's a very sticky situation and one that the only options I see mean the dogs die. They're less than a year old.









The other problem - the folks with anything that look like the breed are leading the MYOB chant as I don't know anything about facing off dogs and it's done with terriers as show dogs and isn't about aggression.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Is there a bush or tree right near where they do their "dog training?" If so, install a bird house or bird feeder, aim the camera on that, then you can send it to the media with the innocent remark of "All I wanted to do was watch birds and I end up with kids teaching their dogs to kill each other!"

Or put up a couple cameras, that way you have a true surveillance network and not a "peeping tom" cam. Whatever it takes to get these idiots busted while you remain within the law.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I was not trying to stereotype, I agree with you that the breed shouldnt be punished, I was just thinking that a rescue that specialized in them might be able to do more, or think of something overlooked. As far as the rest, I know your frustration, I called the cops on my neighbors more than once. The abuse of these animals should not be tolerated regardless of breed.

Call the national humane society and/or the SPCA and tell them these animals are being abused and send them footage. I dont think these people want the media camped in their front yard expecally after Vick. The animals can be saved, the pit bull rescue in CA came and got many of Vicks dogs and have been rehabbing them.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

well there's 3 large trees on the property line - 2 of them have the rope where one of these dogs was tied...but with those sitting basicly on the property line that's dicey. However, one of the reasons for putting these shrubs up was the birds (the other benefits are obvious!) and now that my cats are caged/confined I can feed the birds - if they don't shoot 'em with the BB gun like any other 'target' the kid sees. No I don't leave my dogs out much - have a 60X80 yard my dogs can no longer safely play in without supervision. Not just for their physical protection but so there's no claim "your dog bit me". A few months ago the mom said my "wolf looking" one nipped her. I have nothing that looks like a wolf - a sheltie, a fox terrier, a couple border collies, GSD (finally got her on my avatar with her toy) and a couple black mutts. Not wolf in sight. But protecting my dogs from accusation has been a concern for months as well as from BBs.









But will look into some creative camera work. 

Betsy I agree - and went to a bully BSL list I was on for feedback first. The amount of "you misunderstand" and "MYOB" or "don't look at them" floored me. I quit the group - and can picture the neighborhood reaction if Bella acted like that male was this morning. I think preventing is always better and these two are not that far 'gone' - yet. But then finding someone who gets it of what very likely will be is not likely either. 

Thus far it's stupid but not really illegal - well kicking the GSD X imo was verrry borderline. But then I keep hitting turnabout being fair play....and there's things I do that could be twisted also. Like using a longe whip with my fox terrier - yes he's so abused that when I get it and go to the yard he runs *TO* it to chase the lash in whatever way I make it go. But you know how people can be and I don't want a neighborhood war but on the other hand it'll be far worse and far uglier without action. 

Who said the right things are easy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my town, this is something the AC is working on. I don't know if there will be anything of it, but at least they are trying:
http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2008/01/training_for_pit_bull_owners_i.html


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## towtrip (Dec 12, 2003)

I generally agree with what people have said here -- videotape what you can.

I disagree with one statement OP made. She said "there isn't fighting." Oh, yes there is. When they have one dog biting the legs of the other, and rewarding that behavior, there IS fighting.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

How many bully boards have you posted to? You might want to look a bit further. I joined 2 when I wanted insights on my Amer Bulldog. I haven't read anything on either of those boards that would condone what you've described. The members seem very aware of the need for good temperaments in these breeds & the need to promote responsible owners/breeders.

Are you certain AC won't respond to a single complaint, especially given the notoriety of dog fighting? They do here, even though many of these 'single complaints' originate from people with a grudge. (I'm NOT implying that's the case here)

Of course IF you do make a report & it's acted on, you're at risk of retaliation...ie your neighbors reporting you every time your dogs bark, whine, crap or look their way. Report, YES! But be especially vigilant regarding your pack's behavior & NEVER let them out unsupervised. (Those vile enough to fight dogs could easily be nasty enough to poison them)


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> QuoteThose vile enough to fight dogs could easily be nasty enough to poison them)


Wouldn't hurt to start walking the yard every day, checking for "fallen treats." Watch your back. Do you have some good neighbors? Wouldn't hurt to discuss some of this with them (at your discretion), that way there are more pairs of eyes watching. 

As much as I despise them, I think mailing a video to PETA wouldn't be a bad idea. They're rabid about this sort of thing, after all. If anyone can make a stink, PETA can. EDIT: ESPECIALLY if you also tell PETA that your local officials ignored this. PETA would be all over this like fur on an Old English.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

You know Diane I usually despise PETA too, but this may be a good use for them. I think what is needed here is a little shake up. and PETA could sure enough do that!!


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

I will not go the PeTA route - my own dogs come first and with a show dog that's just not an option Good point about walking the yard. The dog didn't bite the legs of the other dog - he was nipping the hands and legs of the handler! 

I took a deep breath and advised the owner of the property we're both buying from. "So - they can do whatever they want with their dog." I was stunned and said it is a felony if it goes that far. "I can't do anything about that...it's not my problem." So there is zero backup there. 

And as the complaint from people with a grudge - I know that's how it will be portrayed - and that isn't the case. I'm not cold enough to condemn two dogs that haven't yet done anything wrong to death because of people disagreements. 

I do have a good neighbor - across the street. He's a detective and small town politics come into play - it'd put him in a bad situation too with work/home too close together. I'm riding harder on my dogs than ever before as for behavior and all. 

Will need to work on the proof thing...and watch especially hard that my three little canine "snitches" stay up on the deck. Am looking at some ideas and trying to hopefully get those dogs out alive and legal or at least change their behavior towards the dogs, which I don't hold a lot of hope for. 

It just absolutely blows my mind someone can be informed the seriousness of it and think "so what". I **SO** do not understand this state. Don't drink beer on Sunday but fight your dogs in the back yard and we can't stop it. sorry - sarcasm slipping out.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

If this was me .. as soon as I saw this, I would have started recording it on a camera, phone etc. Then, I would have yelled "WTF do you think you are doing? I have evidence of what you are doing and it's going to the police especially if anything happens to any of those dogs." I've done this with much less serious behaviour. I have been threatened and given the finger for objecting to behaviour like this and while I know that Australia is not yet quite as prone to the retaliatary violence prevalent in the US, it has always stopped that behaviour. I admit it probably still goes on but certainly not in areas I can observe and play a part in stopping.

I guess I have got to the age (>40 &< 50) that my own mortality is not of a major concern to me, especially when it does not affect my loved ones. So, now I iterate what I feel and I'm not going to accept bad behaviour from anyone without taking a stand. Most of the people who treat animals in this way are cowards and will back off when there are known consequences. If they don't, I am willling to pay the price for letting them know that I (at least) will not let that behaviour continue when I know it is occuring.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

The problem with this advice is the proximity of the situation to the OP's home. I for one, take the US military's approach to any situation that can cause retaliation of any kind... I DON'T want a fair fight, especially with individuals that have no respect for life. The mindset and psychological profile of people that are willing to inflict the pain and abuse that you need to in order to get dogs to fight like this is the exact same profile of serial killers and rapists. Add in the fact that they are teenagers and you end up with deviants with no clue about real life. I want the cards so stacked in my favor that there's no chance I can lose. I would ensure my home is secure 100% of the time and install camera's before doing or saying anything. Especially since this is a rural area. Guns help. No, I'm not kidding.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Zeus. 
I don't have the funds right now to go get a video camera unfortunately - I did look and found one that would work - $220 and about 45 minutes away. Earlier this month a vehicle went out and I had to replace it -and haven't had a chance to build back up those savings. We do have guns in the home; they're uneasy about Bella so she deters some without *doing* anything (and she's also here inside most of the time now). 

I'm fully aware that right now without proof of a fight there's little that can be done. I know it'd be explained away as a "misunderstanding" because so many dog people do (not on here) or a "neighborhood dispute". 

I have learned that although it's illegal to have a dangerous/red zone/whatever label dog it is *not* illegal to **create** one and until it takes someone down (human) there's "nothing we can do" seems to get repeated. I'm not ok with that no matter what breed is involved. 

These dogs have a chance of being family dogs now - 6-8-12 months later of this they won't. Further it affects insurance for all of us when dogs attack...so I do think in a way it is our business as dog owners. Especially of a breed that is often targeted for BSL no matter the individual. And I think it's a shame that until the dog attacks a human theres "nothing that can be done." 

I'm still documenting - and do plan on getting a camera although the dogs are moved now. I also wrote to a legislator to see if there was a way to legally close that window. I *hate* that option - and made it clear I was not talking about play wrestling with a pet dog or Schutzhund training or other activities - but about teasing and teaching aggression. I can't believe now this is the only case...and how many of the dogs that "just snapped" really just snapped? I'm sure it does happen...but when it's preventable early it seems like it's a win for everyone. I can't prove, even with a video of what I've seen so far, that it's fight training. But it's clearly aggression training. 

The teenager has little to no respect for anyone. He and buddies were having BB gun fights the other day in the street shooting *across* the main street coming into town, with no way to tell if there was oncoming traffic due to visibility at that intersection. My dogs do not like this kid or his dad - at all. That's been the case since they moved in a year and a half or so ago. 

It's clear the male is being set to win whatever conflict arises. And a year or so ago there were several arsons in town...I don't know if it's happened recently as that wasn't in the papers but there is one house about 2 blocks away that was definitely set fire to. So I'd be lying to say that's not in the back of my mind knowing I'll be gone a couple times this summer. 

I agree qyn they're cowards. But continuing to say anything to the teen after twice now being told not to - *I* will be the one in trouble to say anything more direct. The adults do not come out when this is going on - little stiffer penalties there for adults. 

I don't trust them, I'm taking steps to further protect my dogs and property and take back being able to be outside with my dogs. 
I appreciate the discussion and feedback. It's nice to see some do "get it" and are willing to discuss it rather than just shrug and say nothing can be done. I'm not willing to blindly by label have Bella or other dogs grouped with dogs that are taught aggression...and find it amazing that until a person is attacked or their caught at a fight "nothing can be done." I think that's scarier than the situation - as how many of these are simmering around the state and country?


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

I know I am speaking from a different country and (as I said) we do not currently have the same level of retaliatary consequences that the US has but ...... it is not very far away. I am not saying anyone should act as I would but --- I do act before I think sometimes.

We live two doors away from a shopping complex and there are many underhanded practices going on in the carpark associated with this. I do send a spotlight down to where this is happening and I have personally confronted offenders. I also complain to the owners of the property, so there is a record of these practices. I will probably pay a price for my actions but, so far, those I have confronted have moved on - possibly to another site as their activites clearly have a market. 

I do not say anyone should behave as I do and I truly understand why anyone would not. But I act on my anger even if there is the possibility of retaliatory action.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

Well the roaming white neighbor mutt was thrown onto the shepherd to induce a fight this afternoon - a call to the sheriff's dept brought zero response - not even a phone call. A couple hours later a fight between the pits my other half observed escalated - another call put in - now threats to have the humane society called on us in the morning and the health department. "we can do whatever we want and you can't stop us." 

Dog fighting may be illegal on the books and when the media gets a Michael Vick...but in ordinary situations and towns they could care less. Illegal or no it does not matter - if the law will not be enforced etc then it will continue and grow.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

This is a horrible situation. I can't believe the responses that you are getting from your local police departments. Do you have a local SPCA in the area? In a larger town near you that might take an interest? I feel bad for you and the neighbor's dogs. When the teenager turns into a serial killer I wonder if the parents will say they had no idea he was nuts???


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

Well have been trying to get ahold of animal control - no answer and no one available. 

The parents are in absolute 200% support their kids are doing nothing wrong - clearly stated yesterday. Amid the threats to throw the pitbull in our yard and kill our dogs; amid the threats to call AC on us for having 22 dogs in the house (suffice to say they can't count either). But even if it was - seems most animal control issues are dogs chained and barking - so now it's illegal to have them in the house too? and oh our dogs fight too...yea occasionally there's a squabble which is quickly broken up - not taking one dog and throwing on top the other to make it happen. So now hanging over head is a threat to call the health department, ACO and any other legal officials on me, kil my dogs in their own yard (not that they've been able to be outside much anyway). The sheriff's dept finally did come out yesterday - were there less than 2 minutes. And from what I gathered it was also the town mayor. Anything done about it...in under 2 minutes? highly doubtful. 

And I hate to say it but I wonder if the same disinterest would happen if it was a black family. But hey what do I know - my fighting sheltie terrorizes the neighbors and people live in fear of my "22 dogs" that are in their own yard/home. 

And there is a law on the books in aL that even *training* "for amusement* is illegal under dog fighting laws. But it's not taken seriously. Instead it's a means for harassment on anyone who speaks up. But on the other hand...it'll make for quite an article.


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## Rosie (Oct 22, 2007)

Do you know if their house is insured? If you notify their insurance company they may force them to get rid of the dogs if they are blacklisted like a lot of insurances do.
What about going to a higher level media? Maybe they could work out something with the camera since this made national attention in the Vick case. The Pit-Bull rescue that took those dogs has been able to rehab most of them if not all.
I saw the above information on Oprah so if you look at her website and look for 'Oogie'(spelling?), the dog, you may get some contacts that will help.
Good luck and stay safe!!


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## mroe (Apr 6, 2008)

OMG where do you live that no one takes this serious?? Do you have children.. OMG this is so massively dangerous. At this point forget spending you cash on a camera get a tall wooden privacy fence to keep thier dogs form coming into your yard. Even if you have a property line despute loose a little of the yard to gain some safty not just for your dogs but for you.. because what happens when one of those dogs get loose after being trained by that idiot. Sounds like you have a real pscho living next to you. I feel really bad for you and for those poor pups. I would take them at their word if that kid could hurt a dog, train it to hurt other dogs he is not far away form doing it to a human.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

It's in AL; and thought of the insurance angle but - well we have a GSD which is also blacklisted by many companies. 
No kids here and agreed it's a dangerous situation. But having lost 2 of my 'shadows' last week suffice to say as we can an 8' fence will be put up...but it will be a while. Was teasing the hound to fight the other day (did get a pic just before the dogs went at it) and had a trapped **** yesterday set between the two dogs and being tormented as it couldn't get away. I don't see that's training...not even for **** dogs. And it was a squirrel last week. 

But yes, creating a dangerous dog is perfectly legal here in AL because people can do whatever they want with their dogs. And until it's confirmed dangerous not a thing will be done.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

Update...neighbors will not be an issue for a while. Their mobile caught fire today and about 1/4 of the roof is gone - will probably be a total loss. It's not liveable as is. 
Wouldn't wish fire on anyone. :-(


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wonder what will happen to the dogs? (


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

They're still in the yard - were fed and have seemed content. The little pitbull bitch I believe is pregnant. Haven't seen the GSD X for a couple weeks. 

I told them if they need the dogs fed/taken care of/watched to let me know - hadn't heard anything but the dad was over there this morning. I'm not sure beyond that what will happen.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I would also call the authorities if I saw them having "bb gun fights". Get the media involved and you will see a change in the Mayor's opinion I am sure. That would be my next step, get a hold of your local news station. You can also get a cheap camera at a drug store, get pictures. Pictures may not be as useful as video, but will be good backup if needed.
Good luck and stay safe!


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

We're a half hour from the county sheriff's dept; BB gun fights aren't high on the list of priorities to drive out here for. 

At this point I'm way more concerned about more than that. Was told today the point of ignition from the fire was on the floor inside the trailer to the left of the door; went up the wall (not spreading on the wall) to the roof. Odd burn pattern. 

And really makes me nervous to leave the dogs inside when I go to town now.


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## JanH (Jan 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlwonder what will happen to the dogs? (


The dogs - *3* pitbulls plus the hound - have apparently been moved. One had 9 pups; all died and the kid said another had 8 pups. I saw the pits Saturday as I was walking to get the mail they came out. The real friendly one and ok friendly one came up - one was chewed up on one side ear (purple lotion all over it) and both had bite marks on the face and legs. The other one - I took it an older female - came out and amazingly they listened to me to not fight...but the kid said those two females hated each other and would fight. How much of the injuries are normal dog squabbles and how much are more...who knows.







Mine get in normal squabbles at times but don't leave marks like that. But they've now been moved - not sure where to. Very sad 'cause these are such nice dogs even though a bit ragged. But - still no proof.


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

im sorry you have to live next to that crap.fencing would be a good idea,like privacy fencing type.watch your dog/pets when outside,to keep them safe.i also liked the video idea..i'd document times dates and occurances along with video evidence. also, document when you called animal control,and the results.
if a fight goes on,you'll have evidence it was not your dog,and may help in court if they seize their animals for dog/**** fighting.
just tape and keep your pets safe. if you tape/record long enuff,you can turn them in on your own,and end it. my thought is,when you had a property-line dispute with them. its alll being twisted as a 'disgruntled neighbor' thing and no one wants to hear it. proof is a good thing.lol


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