# Coloration



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I have a question about finding a pup who will have a particular coloration as an adult. Obviously the breeder will be able to predict fairly well, but I wonder if there is some nice, concise way for me to say what I prefer. (Coloration is not the deciding factor for me but if I can start with a litter that will have pups close to my preferred coloration, maybe that will help). I am not up on the color terminology, so maybe you can tell me what this would be called.

The color I'd like is:
not solid black or white, and not the solid black with tan only on the bottoms of its legs.
not super long-haired
not sable
not predominantly tan
It is more black than tan (or red... I do love the richness of the red but tan is fine)
Not a "saddle" pattern, but more black than that. More black on the face and over the shoulders and down to, like, the tops of the legs. I think I have seen this referred to as a "blanket"? Some tan/red markings on the face but not much.

Is there a name for this coloration? If any of you have a dog that you think fits this description I'd love if you could post a picture here.

Thanks for the help


----------



## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

I think you prefer a blanket back with a dark mask. You can't know for sure looking at the puppy's coat. You need to find the desired coat in the genetics, such as if the dame & sire have the coloring. You may be able to see pics from the previous litters. But unless you get an adult, I don't think there's positive assurance as to what the adult will look like.
Don't get so hung up on coat that you sacrifice other more important considerations. 

I am by no means an expert so if someone chimes in with some marks to look for that increase your odds, I'd be curious to know.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark would be considered a "blanket"; his mother was a typical WGSL (West German Show Line) black and tan with saddle, and his father was a DDR (East German Working Line) pure black boy.

This is Stark at 7, almost 8 months old (sorry for the crappy pictures, they were taken on my phone):























































A breeder should be able to 'pick out' the different coat types right off the bat, and also try to match "everything else" in the coat type or colour you perfer.

My opinion, don't worry about the colour, go for the dog that will match you best for what you want him/her for.

Good luck!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, it's a blanket. If you are set on this color, you'd have to look at working lines or American show lines. I've only ever seen one blanket west German show line. My Nikon was a blanket until he was about 10 months or so, now he is not quite as blanket but still more black than most German show lines (these days they have a saddle and often very little black on the face, it seems there is more concern for the richness of the red tones than the coverage of black).

13 months


----------



## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

Stark is looking so handsome. If he's under a year, isn't it possible that he could blow coat in the spring and turn out to have a saddle? Or would the saddle be present already? 
Curious cuz mine has a large blanket, but there's light shading in her upper legs that looks like may spread revealing a large saddle eventually. She's nearly 10 months. I thought the jury was out on her final coat.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks.









And, yes, your right. Stark is still young (8 months old in about 2 weeks time) and his colouration could change drastically, but going by the previous litter from the same parents 90% of the dogs were blankets, with the odd one being the saddle. My breeder thinks Stark will keep most of his black and only start lightening up around his chest a bit more, but who knows.

Here are some dogs from the previous litter (same parents, only 2 years older):


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: elisabeth_00117
> A breeder should be able to 'pick out' the different coat types right off the bat, and also try to match "everything else" in the coat type or colour you perfer.
> 
> My opinion, don't worry about the colour, go for the dog that will match you best for what you want him/her for.
> Good luck!


I don't think at a very young age, the breeder will be able to tell that the pup will be a blanket or not. 
Bi-color and B&T will be known of course, but you don't know how much of the black will fade until maturity. Unless it is common in the lines as Starks shows. Then of course the breeder would have a better idea.
If that is the look you want, then look at past litters that have been produced by both the dam and sire. 

I wanted a very dark sable so went with a breeding that would produce that color. To me, color was as important as the temperament in the puppy that would be my companion.
If the litter was only producing blacks, I would have passed, as I didn't want a black(I love the black, already had one before and wanted a sable). The breeder understood this when I went for the interview. I probably would have regretted passing on such a great breeding match in hindsight! Luckily for me, all the pups were sable. I have a bi and a blanket and the sable completes my pack!
Personally, the darker the GSD, the better-I love blanket backs!


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

My blanket back, Trent. He's from West German working lines, and when he was younger, he was so dark that everyone thought for sure he was a bi-color. 

These aren't the best pictures, but they do show his coloring. He lightened up and has just a bit more tan now at 9 months of age.

Puppy picture:
At 3-4 months









At 7 months









His dam:









His sire was a black and tan saddle back.


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Ah yes. Gorgeous dogs all! Stark and Trent and Trent's dam are about the coloration/amount of black I want. Nikon is BEAUTIFUL and I love his red, but I'd rather have more black. Do the blacket backs come with red like that or are they usually tanner?

So I am gathering that for this type of coloration I should look at working German lines or American show lines. Are the show lines more prone to hip problems or severe angulation? Is there a temperament difference between the German and American or is that more of an individual line quality?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There are two types of American show lines. To get really good information on them see Andaka on this board-she's a mod and will help. 

Bella is American pet (BYB I got through rescue). 

I don't have a great side shot of her-will this do?









I love her dark face-she's 7.5 here, no photoshopping, her real colors in natural light:









Just feel like posting pictures of my pretty girl!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

She has a lovely and feminine head. Purdy girl, but I am partial to the females.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm a fan of blanket black and tans too but they seem to be the trickiest coloration to predict because the genetics isn't nearly as clear cut as some of the other patterns and nearly all black and tan puppies LOOK like blankets until they get older. There seems to be some general trend for blankets to show up in breedings where the pups inherit BT from one parent and black from the other, but it's not always the case. I'd say your odds are best in a breeding between a blanket back parent and a black parent.

Or you could do what I did and adopt a 11 month old!







Of course in our case Grace wasn't actually the color we were looking for at the time. It has been having her that has made blanket black and red my favorite color.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have heard the blanket is often associated with black also. It is a very nice coloring to me. I am hoping my pup keeps most of his black. His sire is blanket and dam is sable. Grand dam is the beautiful black Chuckie.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Beautiful pup!!! 

Since sable is dominant, your put didn't inherit that from mom. Do you know what color her parents were? If either of them is black then your pup is carrying a black allele. 

I think there is probably some additional gene for degree of melanism and an allele for being more melanistic which is possibly independent of coat pattern. Like how some sables are super dark and others are not. Black sables tend to show up in litters where one parent is black but not always. There are some super dark sables as well as dark blanket parents that seem to produce a fair number of similarly colored offspring.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know what color the dam's dam was. Her sire was this dog, looks blanket, so she must a been a sable!

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/113783.html


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Agreed. 

It's possible your pup got the blanket bt from both sides then, or from mom and a black from dad if he was carrying that.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Awesome picture of the Grace girl. She is very striking!! I want to be where she is!


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks! I just raided my photobucket looking for something that showed her coloration. That picture was taken on the Outer Banks of NC. Grace is a HUGE fan of water and that was her first trip to the ocean and her first view of the water (darn landlocked KY! It's tough for an NC girl like me!). She was thrilled though, you can see it on her face! She's like "Look at the Giant Water!"


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

The more I look at sables, the more I like them. I think I may be reconsidering the sable thing. I like how the dark ones look, especially.

Question for the sable owners: when you go out, do people generally recognise them as GSDs, or do you get a lot of people asking what kind of dog it is and/or not thinking it is a purebred GSD? Just wondering what kind of reactions people have, as I have never seen a sable GSD in real life myself and was surprised to see them online.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How could you not like the sables!!!?
They are absolutely gorgeous and their colors change with the seasons and age. There is a thread buried on sables, I'll go look for it, it will change your mind forever!!
I really don't care what people think, bi-colors are so uncommon in the real world people don't recognize them as GSD's either. The only one that most know are the black and tan saddleback showline. 
I think a few people think Karlo is a wolf mix. Neighbors have made such comments...


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, most people recognize them but ask if it's a "police dog".


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I like this thread with all these sables...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288992&page=1#Post288992


And in my experience many people do not immediately recognize a sable shepherd. Especially when they are young. When my guy was little and had some floppy ears, everyone assumed mix breed. And as he got older...people suspect GSD but are not sure. Usually they say something like "Is that a Shepherd?". And yes. POlice dog is a common label.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Finally found it:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288992&page=1#Post288992
Another w/ black sable:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=640634&page=9#Post640634
JKlatsky, your quicker than I, glad it didn't go on the chopping block, that was a good thread!


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks! I like them more and more. If I go with a litter from a blanket type and a sable I could then be sure to get *some* color I like, I guess, and then let the breeder pick for personality.


----------



## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

well, that would increase your chances, however Chris Wild's (Wildhaus Kennel) last litter (the H liiter) was from a black dam and sable sire and all of the pups (12 of them) were all black and tans or sables.


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Alison, when you say black & tans, do you mean saddle backs?


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My pup is a black/tan saddle back with a reverse mask


















This is my pup's sire (parents are like the Wildhaus litter described above - father pure black and mother is red sable)










My friend Dawn's dog, Brady, also a black/tan but a blanket back. Not much tan on Brady's head, little bit behind the ears, a touch over the eyes and a spattering on the jowels










all these boys are 100% east german


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think with the Wildhaus H litter, you'd have to wait to see what comes, but the odds are they will be about like Brady in coloring, as many have very little brown on them now. They almost look bi-color. 
Though,they are all reserved and going to their new homes in the next week! You can see them in all their beauty _here_


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: well, that would increase your chances, however Chris Wild's (Wildhaus Kennel) last litter (the H liiter) was from a black dam and sable sire and all of the pups (12 of them) were all black and tans or sables.


But that's all those puppies _could_ be because dad had one allele for sable and one for BT, so all the puppies are heterozygous with one black allele from Raven and then either sable or BT from dad. In theory, having the black allele would make them more likely to be dark sables or blankets rather than lighter sables or BTs with saddles, but it doesn't always work that way. I have seen pups who were heterozygous for black and not particularly dark pigmented. The G litter are all heterozygous black and sable and they seem to vary in their degree of pigment, although none are light. 

That is where I think that there's something more than that going on - like separate genes that code for degree of melanism that also come into play. Like if you look at Chris's F litter, the dad was a very dark blanket, heterozygous BT and black, and the two BT puppies in the litter were also very dark blankets and heterozygous for black from mom. To the OP - check out Falkor from that litter - he's GORGEOUS!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7*The more I look at sables, the more I like them. I think I may be reconsidering the sable thing. I like how the dark ones look, especially.*
> 
> Question for the sable owners: when you go out, do people generally recognise them as GSDs, or do you get a lot of people asking what kind of dog it is and/or not thinking it is a purebred GSD? Just wondering what kind of reactions people have, as I have never seen a sable GSD in real life myself and was surprised to see them online.


Well YOU are becoming a discriminating GSD owner







. As the owner of 2 sable GSD's, I can say many people are confused about what they are (and I get the Malinois question alot). That said, they are getting more common and I don't get the question as much as even 5 years ago.










And don't forget the pretty ALL black GSD's!


----------



## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7Alison, when you say black & tans, do you mean saddle backs?


I would venture to say that the black and tans from Chris's H litter will be blanket backs, I would be very very suprised if any turn out to be the "traditional" saddle backs. 

I have to admit, I "thought" I always wanted a solid black GSD, but I couldn't be more pleased with my beautiful sable! I haven't had any people ask about her coloring, other than the frequesnt comment of "Oh wow I love her color!" is asking if she is a Belgian Terv. because of her long coat. I am always shocked that the general population has heard of the Terv but not a LC GSD LOL!!!!!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MRL~ I love that pic of Glory and Eyra!


----------



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

All the dogs are so beautiful!! I think my preference for a darker dog comes from the adoration I had for my first GSD, Toby. He was such a wonderful dog, I loved him dearly! I need to find some pictures of him and post them on here. He had a dark face so that is my main preference but he was I believe a blanket (I didnt pay attantion/know about the variations back then... I was 17!) He was so cool.


----------

