# Humanizing our dogs and asking them to share and play with non pack members?



## JulieBays

It seems pretty stupid if you ask me. I am far from an expert. Heck, I am such a novice that Sasha looks at me like I'm stupid most of the time. :laugh: However, I've been reading the threads. For instance, Dog Parks. What are we expecting from our dogs? Are they human children wanting to be altruistic and learn to play with others? Heck no. Dogs are pack animals! They want to play with their pack. How about sharing toys and food? Human children learn very early that this is a good thing. *Dogs can't learn this*. Not in the same way humans process it. It's not fair to dogs. They don't have the same frontal lobe development in their brains that humans have. You give them a toy, food or whatever, it's theirs. They don't understand sharing. Oh, they will give their pack member a gift but it's not the same as giving a NON pack member a gift. I hope I'm making sense. I am just sort of fed up with all of the aggression threads regarding dog parks and expecting our GSD's to be so altruistic and loving. They are not people! We are a different species! Sorry for the rant. I was an Anthropology graduate in college. It just pisses me off that people keep anthropomorphizing their dogs. I'm guilty too but come on people!!! Let's be clear about the differences.


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## msvette2u

Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say, but you said it very nicely 

Dog parks are for humans, and especially those who are apartment dwellers.
Dogs would do so much better if people, instead of unleashing them to romp with "stranger" dogs, would just spend extra time training and exercising them on their own.

**BTW, it's not just dog parks that trip people up. It's almost all areas of dog ownership when people forget they are dogs and start to think _they_ think like humans.


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## Emoore

I agree. It's against a dog's biology to ask an adult to be friendly and playful with other non-pack adults in a dog park setting.


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## chelle

JulieBays said:


> ......They want to play with their pack. How about sharing toys and food? Human children learn very early that this is a good thing. *Dogs can't learn this*. Not in the same way humans process it. It's not fair to dogs. They don't have the same frontal lobe development in their brains that humans have. You give them a toy, food or whatever, it's theirs. They don't understand sharing. Oh, they will give their pack member a gift but it's not the same as giving a NON pack member a gift. I hope I'm making sense. I am just sort of fed up with all of the aggression threads regarding dog parks and expecting our GSD's to be so altruistic and loving. They are not people! We are a different species! Sorry for the rant. I was an Anthropology graduate in college. It just pisses me off that people keep anthropomorphizing their dogs. I'm guilty too but come on people!!! Let's be clear about the differences.


Only a fool brings food and toys into a dog park. Sure, there are too many fools. But that really isn't the point of the dog park, to "teach" dogs to "share" anything. At least it shouldn't be anyone's goal.!



msvette2u said:


> Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say, but you said it very nicely
> 
> Dog parks are for humans, and especially those who are apartment dwellers.
> Dogs would do so much better if people, instead of unleashing them to romp with "stranger" dogs, would just spend extra time training and exercising them on their own.
> 
> **BTW, it's not just dog parks that trip people up. It's almost all areas of dog ownership when people forget they are dogs and start to think _they_ think like humans.


I disagree, dog parks ARE meant for dogs, but the *humans* abuse it. I am not an apartment dweller; I have almost an acre for my dogs to run. We work out there, we run, play frisbee, etc... I do agree in that many do NOT spend the time training and working and simply go to the dogpark and let 'em loose to run it off. That's just stupid humans at work, there.

But I do place a strong precedence on ensuring my dog is socialized with dogs. I hear far, far too often how DA many GSD's are.... or any non-socialized dog for that matter, but GSD's do seem to have more issues with DA than many breeds. My dog is not pb GSD at all, but I just do not want this to ever be one of our issues. Therefore, we go to the dogpark here and there.


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## selzer

I think it might depend on the dog park, what turnover is like, and how often you go. I mean, if you have a couple of regular dogs and started when yours is a puppy and are there four or five times a week around the same three or four dogs, it might work. 

I think that is more like a play date. I think play dates make more sense anyways. That way you have a dog someone else has a dog, and you introduce them and then keep coming back. I have taken Joy and Bear over to one of Joy's littermate's house a number of times. Several times with joy, a couple of times with Bear. But there is just the two dogs, and it works out just fine. 

But hooking up with 10-20 totally strange dogs and having a free for all? That's nuts, totally. At least, I wouldn't. My dogs are dogs and they would be perfectly happy if all the other dogs in the world and all the other people in the world for that matter, were no more. They are perfectly happy with me, and wouldn't mind never seeing another person or dog.


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## JulieBays

Chelle,

I understand what you are saying but it's still not safe for non pack members. I suppose it could be if it was a big park or if the same dogs were always at the park (a psuedo pack) but it's not. You have seen the problems. 

Okay, this is not another thread on Dog Parks. I probably shouldn't have even typed the word. For me, it's more about the dog's natural tendency and what is best for our GSD's. What is best for their development? For me the novice and after reading this forum over and over, it's this:

1. Have fun and love your pup.
2. Let them live in your pack (let them be with you as much as possible)
3. Be a leader and understand that they depend on you to be the brave one.
4. Help them become confident. (let them win at tug or just let training be so rewarding that they know they are good at their JOB)
5. Give them some freedom to grow. (this is the hardest)

Where in those 5 points is a dog park? Or for that matter the necessity that they need to play with outsiders? They can learn to be tolerant of other dogs but why ask them to actually play with outsiders? That has to be hard on them. I'm just trying to think like a dog. Why would you ask a dog to play with a stranger? A kid, I can understand but a dog? I can't get it. The poor dog...


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## JulieBays

One other thing that humans have that dogs don't. An intricate language. Dogs depend on signals that we, as humans, don't always understand. Humans on the other hand, are hard wired for words. At an early age (before the age of one) we already understand the grammar of our native language. We depend on it.


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## woody

I take my dogs to the dog park sometimes because its a nice place for them to run around & they enjoy having a friendly sniff of other dogs bums! I don't ever recall any dogs at the park being asked to share anything. I'm not sure what dog parks in America are like, the ones I've seen on telly just look like a wire fence in the middle of the suburbs. In NZ my dog park is about 1km long rolling grass land. May be a slightly different dynamic to what you guys experience.


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## doggiedad

dogs can do fine in a dog park. it's all about the training
and socializing. how do you know dogs don't need to
communicate with other dogs? wolves are pack animals
but they visit other packs. my dog shares his toys
and food and water bowls. when he was a pup i made sure
other dogs came to visit. you're speaking for dogs.
are you qualified to do that? we don't know what dogs think.
how do you determine what a dog thinks? i take my dog to a dog park.
where i live there's 1,700 acres of woods. there's a section in the woods
where people gather with their dogs. sometimes there's 25 dogs there
running around and havingfun. there's people there throwing sticks for their dogs, there's people there throwing toys they brought from
home for their dogs and there's no problems.

it's fun acting like your dog is human. with some dogs you can get away with it with others you can't. do you ever think about how our dogs view us?



JulieBays said:


> It seems pretty stupid if you ask me. I am far from an expert. Heck, I am such a novice that Sasha looks at me like I'm stupid most of the time. :laugh: However, I've been reading the threads. For instance, Dog Parks. What are we expecting from our dogs? Are they human children wanting to be altruistic and learn to play with others? Heck no. Dogs are pack animals! They want to play with their pack. How about sharing toys and food? Human children learn very early that this is a good thing. *Dogs can't learn this*. Not in the same way humans process it. It's not fair to dogs. They don't have the same frontal lobe development in their brains that humans have. You give them a toy, food or whatever, it's theirs. They don't understand sharing. Oh, they will give their pack member a gift but it's not the same as giving a NON pack member a gift. I hope I'm making sense. I am just sort of fed up with all of the aggression threads regarding dog parks and expecting our GSD's to be so altruistic and loving. They are not people! We are a different species! Sorry for the rant. I was an Anthropology graduate in college. It just pisses me off that people keep anthropomorphizing their dogs. I'm guilty too but come on people!!! Let's be clear about the differences.


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## ChancetheGSD

I guess I'll be a "horrible" owner then. :shrug: My dogs have playdates with friends dogs and Chances favorite place in the world was the dog park, especially James Island when I was in SC cause then he got to PLAY WITH OTHER DOGS -and- swim!! We even had a small park by the house that every Friday all us regulars got together for the dogs to play. If that makes me a lazy owner or something (Despite the fact I did a heck of a lot more manual exercising with Chance than many of you would ever think of doing with your own dogs) then so be it. He LOVED it! Eevee does NOT like the dog park, therefore I don't force it on her. She DOES like playdates though so we often have those with some of her "friends". Zoey could care less. She enjoyed the park when we went but doesn't have the excitement Chance had for it. Chances whole body would wag and he'd be sooo excited when we started pulling into the park. Not even a big juicy raw bleeding steak compared to the wonders of the dog park to him!

You'd probably have a heart attack if I got started on my dogs clothes!!! :wild:


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## Germanshepherdlova

After reading your statement about dogs not sharing their toys or food the GSD property laws came to mind-

1. If i like it, its mine.
2.If its in my mouth, its mine.
3.If i had it a little while ago, its mine.
4.If i can take it from you, its mine.
5.If its mine, it must never appear to be yours.
6.If it just looks like mine, its mine.
7.If i saw it first, its mine.
8.If its edible, its mine.
9.If you have something and put it down, its mine.
10.If i chew something up, all the pieces are mine.
11.If i get tired of it, its yours.
12.If i want it back, its mine.

I know this sounds about right for my dog.


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## Shaina

My dogs aren't wild animals. They may descend from wolves, but they sleep on my bed, they eat from a bowl, and they don't get to kill small animals for food. They wouldn't last a day in the wild, and they love other dogs and going to dog parks. For me, dogs are WAY too domesticated to get into a debate about pack instincts. I see more dogs that are simply spoiled brats with no rules, and that's where the fight happen. Lack of training... but I don't mean to start a debate, just my opinion. If I am "forcing" my dog to enjoy other dogs company, that's fine by me, I do enough for them that I guess they can owe me that one thing


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## JulieBays

I am thinking about my two human kids now. Would I have expected them to play with different playmates all of the time? These are human kids and they are hard wired to "get along" with humans. Humans don't have the same pack behavior as dogs do. I think I would have some pretty messed up kids if I kept moving and put them in situations where they played with new playmates all of the time. But. we expect it from our dogs. Hmm... Dogs are less social than humans. 

Sorry, I rarely rant. I'm just thinking these things through tonight and put it out there.

Julie


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## JulieBays

Germanshepherdlova said:


> After reading your statement about dogs not sharing their toys or food the GSD property laws came to mind-
> 
> 1. If i like it, its mine.
> 2.If its in my mouth, its mine.
> 3.If i had it a little while ago, its mine.
> 4.If i can take it from you, its mine.
> 5.If its mine, it must never appear to be yours.
> 6.If it just looks like mine, its mine.
> 7.If i saw it first, its mine.
> 8.If its edible, its mine.
> 9.If you have something and put it down, its mine.
> 10.If i chew something up, all the pieces are mine.
> 11.If i get tired of it, its yours.
> 12.If i want it back, its mine.
> 
> I know this sounds about right for my dog.


LOL Well, that would be a dog. Thank goodness we can train them to share with their pack.


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## JulieBays

Shaina said:


> My dogs aren't wild animals. They may descend from wolves, but they sleep on my bed, they eat from a bowl, and they don't get to kill small animals for food. They wouldn't last a day in the wild, and they love other dogs and going to dog parks. For me, dogs are WAY too domesticated to get into a debate about pack instincts. I see more dogs that are simply spoiled brats with no rules, and that's where the fight happen. Lack of training... but I don't mean to start a debate, just my opinion. If I am "forcing" my dog to enjoy other dogs company, that's fine by me, I do enough for them that I guess they can owe me that one thing


I think it's great that your dog gets along. My Sasha thinks every dog is a potential playmate so I am not saying these things from a bad experience. She loves other dogs. She loves people. I am just thinking this stuff out. Sasha is only 5 1/2 months old. She is not close to an adult. I am trying to understand her and not anthropomorphize her. That's all.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Shaina said:


> My dogs aren't wild animals. They may descend from wolves, but they sleep on my bed, they eat from a bowl, and* they don't get to kill small animals for food. They wouldn't last a day in the wild*, and they love other dogs and going to dog parks. For me, dogs are WAY too domesticated to get into a debate about pack instincts. I see more dogs that are simply spoiled brats with no rules, and that's where the fight happen. Lack of training... but I don't mean to start a debate, just my opinion. If I am "forcing" my dog to enjoy other dogs company, that's fine by me, I do enough for them that I guess they can owe me that one thing


Rest assured, if your dogs got lost for long enough that they were starving-their natural instincts would kick in and that rabbit, squirrel, or whatever they could catch and kill would become their dinner.


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## billsharp

Julie, I have to respectfully disagree. 

In my experience most dogs are well-socialized and will greet other dogs with an open attitude and play nice together. The proof of this is all around us--the great number of people who have great experiences in dog parks, the multitude of facilities offering "doggie day care" type sitting where the dogs all romp with each other without problems. These aren't defined "packs" but rather impromptu gatherings of dogs who quickly play together--much like kids in a sandbox at the park. Sure, some will get along better, and some not at all, but that is also true for kids.

The most troublesome dogs I see by far are those (of any breed) who are raised inside, only trained in dealing with their immediate family, not used to dogs or strangers, and not disciplined or taught correct and incorrect behaviors. Again, just like human children. The parallels are really striking.

I do agree with you that there is too much frivolous "anthropomorphizing" of dogs, which is silly but harmless as long as it isn't substituted for a correct understanding of dog psychology.


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## codmaster

Emoore said:


> I agree. It's against a dog's biology to ask an adult to be friendly and playful with other non-pack adults in a dog park setting.


 
Not so much with some dogs! They are naturally gregarious with most other adult dogs! Many other dogs are not so much with strange adult dogs. Depends on the breed and on the individual dogs.

Remember that dogs are pack animals -* wonder how long dogs take to think of other dogs as part of their pack?*


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## codmaster

Germanshepherdlova said:


> After reading your statement about dogs not sharing their toys or food the GSD property laws came to mind-
> 
> 1. If i like it, its mine.
> 2.If its in my mouth, its mine.
> 3.If i had it a little while ago, its mine.
> 4.If i can take it from you, its mine.
> 5.If its mine, it must never appear to be yours.
> 6.If it just looks like mine, its mine.
> 7.If i saw it first, its mine.
> 8.If its edible, its mine.
> 9.If you have something and put it down, its mine.
> 10.If i chew something up, all the pieces are mine.
> 11.If i get tired of it, its yours.
> 12.If i want it back, its mine.
> 
> I know this sounds about right for my dog.


 
Seen this before BUT still funny as ****!!!

And SO TRUE!


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## msvette2u

chelle said:


> I disagree, dog parks ARE meant for dogs,


No...what I mean is, dog parks are for people to feel good about themselves as dog owners. It doesn't work out so great for dogs all the time, and yet you never see people considering once how the dog feels. 
It's always "*I* enjoy taking *my* dog to a dog park". Sure, the dog may look at times as if it's having fun but I'm willing to bet that if you filmed it all and showed it to an expert in dog body language, that the dog is stressed much more than it is happy.


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## jetscarbie

I just watched a documentary on Netflix called "Dogs Decoded:NOVA"

It raised some pretty good points about dogs/behavior/genetics

They also did a few experiments with dogs compared to monkeys.

They found that dogs connect with humans way more than any other animal. And they connect with humans way more than with another dog. They found that dogs connect with our eyes. They actually read our faces from left to right.

I was amazed by the whole show.

They also did an amazing experiment with wolf pups versus puppies being raised in a human home. I was shocked by the results at the end. They were both very different even though they were raised the same. The wolf was still a wolf. The pup was no where the same. There was also an experiment on silver foxes and aggression.

I guess what I'm wondering.....do dogs have to socialize with strange dog? Are they craving to be included in a group...or do they not care? I've read many threads on here where some dogs do wonderful at parks...some don't. Some dogs are aggressive...some not. Some like people/kids/other dogs...some don't. 

I do think lots of people treat their dogs like little human kids. I'm guilty of that sometimes. BUT I wonder if sometimes it's a bad thing to treat your dog that way?

SOrry for the long post


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## LaRen616

I used to take my male to the dog park, we have never had an issue there but I stopped taking him after hearing all the horror stories on here. I dont want to take the chance of some dog attacking my boy.

However, my dogs do play with other dogs, they do have dog friends and they are extremely happy to see their friends. Some dogs dont enjoy the company of other dogs or dogs that are not their pack members but my dogs love other dogs.

I have a ton of pictures of my dogs with other dogs and their 2 best friends Ace and Addison.​


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## mysweetkaos

As for dog parks....like any "extra privilege" they can be used for good in some cases, and misused or no good. If it works for you.....good, if not....oh well. I think life in general is hard enough with people trying to do the best for their pets (and some not) Who are we to judge someone based on a fact as to whether they utilize a dog park? Take what works for you, leave what doesn't.....but don't judge others who do what works for them. That being said, there are situations where people should be a better judge of their dogs/ other dogs body language and not utilize them, with that I agree. We have a nice one with a lake, I do take the pup on occasion since our old Kaos is not much of a player, so it is an opportunity to learn to relate to other dogs since our old Kaos won't be around forever. 
Jetscarbie...I saw that documentary, it was fascinating to watch!
Germanshepherdlova...that was hilarious I just printed it up for our fridge, come to think of it, it reminds me a lot of my 2 yr old son as well!!


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## crackem

The thing I don't like about dog parks? the people that think it is just a big romper place for all dogs to do whatever they want. and then you get a group of those people that just kind of take over the place and think since they were they first, they rule. 

People like me can't use any park in the city because of people like them and their uncontollable dogs, so they got a fenced in area where they can let 'em loose. And that is where the city expects all people with dogs to go. 

My dogs have plenty of fun, and play with plenty of dogs they know, they don't however get to run no holds bared with strange dogs in a park. I used to like to go there and do some obedience and long recalls and run, and do weird motion exercises and run along ways off and recall, play frisbee, etc, but the other people and their uncontrollable dogs got on my nerves. 

Especially when i went to the back of the park to avoid all of them and their dogs would come racing over, and their attitude was like, "well why are you here". That was a good question. I was tempted to blurt something about not being able to have an offleash dog anywhere in the city thanks to owners like them, so I came here to play frisbee with my dogs, but then thought better. I just said I don't know, and left. 

I do go to city parks now, in the back away from people so I don't draw attention and mostly I get left alone.


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## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> No...what I mean is, dog parks are for people to feel good about themselves as dog owners. It doesn't work out so great for dogs all the time, and yet you never see people considering once how the dog feels.
> It's always "*I* enjoy taking *my* dog to a dog park". Sure, the dog may look at times as if it's having fun but I'm willing to bet that if you filmed it all and showed it to an expert in dog body language, that the dog is stressed much more than it is happy.


My dogs LOVE going to the park! As I've said before, they play with each other and with us, not with the other dogs - we go so they can chase balls and swim, not to socialize with other dogs, and it's their favorite thing in the world. If we even drive past one of the usual places with them in the car, especially Point Isabel, where they can smell the water, they think that's where we're going and they get all excited.


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## msvette2u

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My dogs LOVE going to the park! As I've said before, they play with each other and with us, not with the other dogs - we go so they can chase balls and swim, not to socialize with other dogs, and it's their favorite thing in the world. If we even drive past one of the usual places with them in the car, especially Point Isabel, where they can smell the water, they think that's where we're going and they get all excited.


Maybe it's an off-leash dog park but that's not what I think of when I think "dog park"! 
Some of my dogs would love that too, I'm sure. We live in a desert and there's not a lot of suitable swim areas. But they love going to Petsmart and Petco, my dogs get excited when they see we're at a mall :gsdbeggin:
:rofl:


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## Lilie

LaRen616 said:


> Some dogs dont enjoy the company of other dogs or dogs that are not their pack members but my dogs love other dogs.​


And there you have it. Some dogs enjoy the dog park, and some dogs don't.

I can assure you that no amount of socialization would have turned my boy into a social butterfly. That just isn't his bag. He'd enjoy a dog park, as long as it was empty. He just doesn't enjoy the company of silly acting strange dogs. I'm pretty sure he'd be the first one to let them know as well. 

If I did have a social butterfly, I don't think I'd take him/her to a dog park. There are too many nut cases out there who insist on taking their ill-behaved dogs to the park. I'm not willing to risk the health and well being of my dog on that fact. BUT, the dog parks by me are small fenced in areas with agility equipment. Not large areas with places to run, fetch and swim. 

I'm also one of those silly people who worry about her dogs picking up health issues from ill dogs. 

For me, it's simply a matter of the Con's out weighing the Pro's.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

msvette2u said:


> No...what I mean is, dog parks are for people to feel good about themselves as dog owners. It doesn't work out so great for dogs all the time, and yet you never see people considering once how the dog feels.
> It's always "*I* enjoy taking *my* dog to a dog park". Sure, the dog may look at times as if it's having fun but I'm willing to bet that if you filmed it all and showed it to an expert in dog body language, that the dog is stressed much more than it is happy.


 
There is so much generalizing going on in these dog park threads. Just because you think a dog park is a small fenced in area with bad owners, doesn't mean that is what all dog parks are. People like to roll all the parks into one imagine- they are not all the same! And just because you take your dog to a dog park doesn't mean you are forcing them to play with the other dogs. I take my dog to the park to swim (I live in Florida- he can't just swim in the lakes here because of alligators). He doesn't have much interest in playing with the other dogs. I take him for his benefit- swimming is the best exercise for him.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm in the group who think it really depends on the dog (it's personality/social skills) and it's human companion as well (dog handling skills) and how well the dog park is set up. 

I can see the benefit of using a 'safe' dog park for training and socialization.

I can see the benefit for people to gather and have fun with their dogs together (humans are social critters too).

I don't think dogs 'need' the dog park interactions the way some people think they do (anthropology aspect).

Doesn't make dog parks wrong, just maybe not as needed for the dogs as some people think they are. (<disclaimer this is not directed at any particular poster here).

As for anthormorphizing in general it is a problem, one I work hard to avoid with my dogs. 

Interesting thread.

P.S. I watched the NOVA special Dogs Decoded and agree it's excellent!


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## martemchik

There usually is way too much generalizing. I have been to 4 dog parks in my area, 3 in the Milwaukee County and 1 in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. I've gone at least twice every week I've had my dog so about 100 times or so. I've seen 3 dog fights break out, and each time the owners were right there to break them up. No dogs were injured and everyone went their separate ways. Two of the fights were started by the same dog, a GSD that the owners had SD hopes for, clearly he didn't have the temperment for that. After the second fight I never saw him again, its embarassing, the same people go and know all the dogs. When your dog starts fights and you keep going, people will talk, or just walk out of the park knowing a dog has those tendencies. And just by simple math, my experience has seen 3% problems and is going down each time I visit the park since I haven't seen one since last fall. 

As for the sending in a video to a dog expert comment, I've watched Ceasar and he has always stated that well socialized dogs love the dog park. And I don't want to get into a debate over if Cesar is a dog expert or not, but in my eyes he's the closest thing to one. Are there dogs that are stressed there? Absolutely, but there are just as many that aren't and are clearly enjoying themselves in the pack that is created.


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## holland

I don't take my dog to dog parks-but in training they encounter other dogs and also where we go for walks on the field at work it is sort of like a dog park. Anja gets along with almost all dogs and she grew up in a kennel so I think she does enjoy the company of other dogs-I think one of Rorie's favourite things after rally class is to meet the puppies-she really seems to enjoy it...and truthfully when my dogs play with other dogs I enjoy watching them


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## Shaina

Ah, dog parks.










































They are all definitely different. Some are huge, beautiful areas with water and enough space that there is no territorial issue of being packed into a small section with 20 dogs. Some have crummy owners show up and ruin a good time. Either way, my doggies love it, and it is my job to determine when/who is safe at the dog park.


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## Marnie

On the subject of anthropomorphizing dogs, I don't agree that it is completely harmless. When I taught obedience classes, one of the most frequent things I heard was "my dog tears up the furniture (or insert behavior) out of spite." That common misunderstanding has probably gotten more dogs dumped in shelters than anything else. People simply cannot wrap their minds around a creature who's thinking is so far from ours, and they aren't willing to take the time to learn.

Dog parks are not inherently evil. For some dogs they are great, but not all dogs. One of the threads we see even more than the evil dog park thread is the "my dog goes nuts when he sees another dog or person three blocks down the street." You don't see well socialized dogs going nuts on leash or in a vet's office. At dog parks they do get comfortable with other dogs and people off leash and that will carry over into neighborhood walks, meeting strangers and strange dogs and visits to the vet. Most young dogs seem to have a really basic drive to get close to others of their own kind. With age it diminishes or goes away all together. 


I know there are other ways to socialize. The dog park is just a quick fix.


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## fuzzybunny

I agree with the generalizing as well. Not all parks are little fenced in squares where the dogs are forced to socialize. The two most popular dog parks in my city are forest with multiple walking trails through them. It's like going on a hike with your dog(s). If you don't want to socialize with the other dogs then you take less populated trails. Even on weekends when it's packed you can still avoid chaos.


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## BowWowMeow

If you had a degree in animal zoology then I bet your conclusions about dogs and dog behavior would be must different. Ever read any Patricia McConnell? Her work is fascinating for its insight into human and dog interactive behaviors (and human assumptions about dog behaviors). 

All of my dogs and foster dogs (different breeds and mixes) have loved going to dog parks or off leash areas. Some have enjoyed the freedom of running around off leash and others have enjoyed meeting and playing with other dogs...that they had never even met before. 

Every summer I take my dog(s) to my cottage in Ontario. There they meet (off leash and in wide open areas) lots of other dogs they don't know. They like and play with some of the dogs they meet and they don't particularly care for and don't play with other dogs they meet. They also enjoy walking, playing, swimming, hiking (and sometimes kayaking) with me and members of my extended family, some of whom they've never met before. 

I think it depends on the individual dog and the type of socialization they've had.


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## Liesje

I guess I tend to anthropomorphize my dogs in the other direction. I'm not that outgoing with large packs of people I don't really know. I have several close friends that I'm very outgoing with but don't really enjoy or see the point in socializing outside of my close circle or my dog friends. I tend to be the same about my dogs socializing with other dogs. I really do not care if they don't want to play with a large pack of dogs. As long as they are not reactive towards other dogs (within reason, I don't care if my dog thumps on a dog that is rude and jumps on him) and listen to me, I couldn't care less whether they like other dogs or not. I can have my dogs off leash around other dogs and they just stick with me and ignore other dogs and people. THAT is how I socialize them. They learn from the beginning that most people and other dogs don't want to play with them or pet them so they learn self-control and to be neutral towards people and dogs. I do believe that all dogs need interactions with other dogs, but I personally believe it makes more sense as a pack, not as always being thrown in a large group of dogs that is not a cohesive pack. My dogs are very social with each other and can actually be protective of each other (they also keep each other in line and I allow them to "correct" each other within reason). I love to observe them, just dogs being dogs with each other. 

Like Ruth I take my dogs all over for vacations, traveling to dog events, and have them off leash for two weeks straight at our cottage where there are people constantly coming and going and sometimes relatives' dogs or dogs belonging to neighboring cottages and I've never had any issues with my dogs.

Coke goes to the dog park with DH which is great, he seems to enjoy the company of random dogs and it wears him out pretty good. I don't go because the people there get on my nerves!


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## Remo

I think a lot depends on the dog and the dog park. 

Remo practically grew up at the dog park in Reston. He knew when it was time to play with his buddies, and he also knew when it was training time. You can't ask for a better distraction for a long off leash down stay than being in the middle of a dog park. It made me able to teach him rock solid commands, with distractions, in a safe environment. The park allowed us to socialize with all other kinds of dogs and all sorts of people. 

What made me the most nervous was when people would bring their little yappers into the "BIG" dog area of the park. I was always afraid that the little dogs were going to get trampled or shaken to death.


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## JakodaCD OA

While some dogs/people do well with dog parks, I am not into them and I can tell you my GSD's past and present wouldn't be 'into' them either. 

I don't care if my dogs like strange dogs, they just have to tolerate them in their general vacinity...All of the gsd's I've had/have can go anywhere into any situation and be fine with it..NONE of them tho, have ever cared for strange dogs to come up and get in there face, charge them or try and start something physical , they wouldn't put up with 'rude' dog behavior from other dogs.

They have their own pack of doggie friends, and I have multiples so they have each other , and they have ME

I have been so very blessed that none of my dogs have ever preferred the company of other dogs over ME

We go all over, they are around strange dogs all the time, but they mind their own business and just put them on ignore, which is fine by me


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## msvette2u

BowWowMeow said:


> If you had a degree in animal zoology then I bet your conclusions about dogs and dog behavior would be must different.


Not sure if you're addressing me, but if you are, "different" how? 
To say that not all dogs are going to get along with everyone, all the time, is wrong? Am I missing something? The fact that even the most friendly dog may get beat up for no reason at all at a free-for-all dog park? I have read "The other end of the leash" in fact. 

And yes...obviously some dog parks are so large and winding that you may never meet another dog, I'm sure. We have taken our dogs to a dog _area_ (not a fenced in park) that was like this. And again, obviously, exercise in a safe area is fun and beneficial for any dog. But you don't always have to go to a dog park to find those things, I doubt. 
When we had a smaller yard we used to take our dogs to a fenced in recreational area and let them romp and play. Same effect as with a "dog park" but no other dogs to spoil their exercise time. I have photos of my dogs frolicking off-leash at a beach where no other dogs were present and they had a great time. That's not to say if another dog showed up, it would have been a bad time, but it was fun for my dogs to play with each other, whom they already know, without the uncertainty (for them) of adding other dogs into the mix they did not know.



> You don't see well socialized dogs going nuts on leash or in a vet's office. At dog parks they do get comfortable with other dogs and people off leash and that will carry over into neighborhood walks, meeting strangers and strange dogs and visits to the vet.


Actually, dogs many times are "leash reactive" and if not tugged away from another dog (for fear of a conflict) would probably do fine. I would not equate their behavior at an offleash area with other dogs to on-leash behavior at a vet clinic.


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## arycrest

Germanshepherdlova said:


> After reading your statement about dogs not sharing their toys or food the GSD property laws came to mind-
> 
> 1. If i like it, its mine.
> 2.If its in my mouth, its mine.
> 3.If i had it a little while ago, its mine.
> 4.If i can take it from you, its mine.
> 5.If its mine, it must never appear to be yours.
> 6.If it just looks like mine, its mine.
> 7.If i saw it first, its mine.
> 8.If its edible, its mine.
> 9.If you have something and put it down, its mine.
> 10.If i chew something up, all the pieces are mine.
> 11.If i get tired of it, its yours.
> 12.If i want it back, its mine.
> 
> I know this sounds about right for my dog.


This is the law all the Hooligans follow. They also have a NO. 13 ... IF IT'S _YOURS_, IT'S STILL *MINE*!!!


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## MustLoveGSDs

If you want to get into the nitty gritty, one could very well argue that simply allowing your dog to step paw inside and sleep/live inside your home would qualify as anthropomorphizing. Dogs in the wild do not sleep on cushiony beds and there is no such thing as kibble growing on bushes. Dogs in the wild also don't get the luxury of having surgery or seeing the doggy dentist when something goes wrong. 

Julie, you say it seems pretty stupid to ask dogs to share and play with non-pack members? Seeing as how the doggie daycare business is something like a 50 billion dollar industry and growing, I'd have to say your opinion is that of the minority. If you have a dog that is dog friendly and social, I see no issue with allowing them to play with other dogs. Social dogs thrive on play with their canine buddies  I have a male Doberman and it is a well-documented fact in the Doberman world that there are same-sex aggression issues. My male is 22 months old and intact. I have read stories of some people's male Dobes wanting to kill any other male dog they catch in their sight. I think what has contributed to my male's great social skills with other dogs of all breeds and sizes was the fact that I was able to bring him to work with me(dog daycare) and help socialize him from a pup by allowing him to play with non-pack members.


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## Liesje

Honestly I think it's great that many if not most dogs seem to really enjoy dog parks and dog daycare. I don't have easy access to the former and can't afford/don't need the latter but for those that do, I think they are great options and great fun for dogs. I live in the city but am lucky to have a small yard (a "huge" one in this neighborhood) where my dogs can play with each other for hours but in many urban areas, dog parks are the only realistic option. 

I just don't agree that a dog *should* enjoy these things or that it's any indication of how well socialized the dog is. When I get a new puppy I take it to work every day for the first two months so the pup is meeting new people and seeing something new *every* day. I do prioritize how a dog interacts with people and new environments/sense more than dogs but I do *not* allow reactivity or fixation on other dogs. I do the CGC with all my dogs, usually multiple times (Pan has his first test next week). I've never had any of my dogs get in a fight, either with each other or another dog. I've never had any issues with any of my dogs at the vet. Last time I was there with Nikon, a rude little dog charged over to him and started sniffing and licking at the infection on his foot that was very painful and Nikon just laid there still until I was done telling the owner it's not a good idea to let your dog charge up to a strange dog, much less an injured or sick dog at the vet's office. We also go to a friend's pool and have 3-4 intact dogs off leash at a time and everyone is playing with their own toy not bothering each other. Just because a dog is not a social butterfly does not mean there is something wrong with the dog or the dog is undersocialized. I am not really interested in how wild animals life in packs. GSDs are a very modern breed and according to the breed standard they are not social butterflies but are calm and neutral/aloof. I look for this in all of my GSDs and this is how I approach their socialization.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> There is so much generalizing going on in these dog park threads. Just because you think a dog park is a small fenced in area with bad owners, doesn't mean that is what all dog parks are. *People like to roll all the parks into one imagine- they are not all the same! And just because you take your dog to a dog park doesn't mean you are forcing them to play with the other dogs.* I take my dog to the park to swim (I live in Florida- he can't just swim in the lakes here because of alligators). He doesn't have much interest in playing with the other dogs. I take him for his benefit- swimming is the best exercise for him.


Very true! I envy people who have acres of land where they can play with their dogs right at home, but that's just not how it is when you live in a densely populated major metropolitan area with small fenced yards if you're lucky enough to have one at all. Anywhere it's safe and legal for my dogs to be off leash is public open space where anyone else can do the same, so exposure to other dogs is inevitable. 

As Remo said, it depends on the dog and depends on the park. There are dogs that wouldn't do well at any kind of off leash park, and there are parks where I wouldn't take even my own "dog park" savvy dogs. I guess I find it odd that so many people think that the only reason to take a dog to a place where they can run and play off leash is so they can play with other dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom

chelle said:


> Only a fool brings food and toys into a dog park.


Well, call me a fool! I bring food and toys to the park so I can play with my dogs, and sometimes I do some training too. The whole reason we're there is throw balls and other toys for them to chase and retrieve, in and out of water, so if I couldn't bring a toy there'd be no reason to go to the park. I have a Chuck-it, tennis balls, a couple of Orbee balls on a rope, a tug toy, sometimes a frisbee toy, and we used to bring a Jolly Ball, although we haven't in awhile.


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## Liesje

Debbie that park I've seen your pics of is amazing! We had ONE dog beach left (and I did take my dogs there since there usually weren't more than 6 dogs and mine would just play fetch with me) and last summer they said no more dogs


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## LifeofRiley

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I guess I find it odd that so many people think that the only reason to take a dog to a place where they can run and play off leash is so they can play with other dogs.


I find this puzzling too.


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## msvette2u

> If you want to get into the nitty gritty, one could very well argue that simply allowing your dog to step paw inside and sleep/live inside your home would qualify as anthropomorphizing. Dogs in the wild do not sleep on cushiony beds and there is no such thing as kibble growing on bushes. Dogs in the wild also don't get the luxury of having surgery or seeing the doggy dentist when something goes wrong.


Actually...if you were treating dogs like they would be living in the wild, dog parks would be all the rage and in fact, forget dog day care, drop them off at a well fenced area, and pick them up when you're done working. 
Or don't own them at all.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Liesje said:


> Debbie that park I've seen your pics of is amazing!


We actually have three regular places we go to, I posted a couple pics of each place in the most recent dog park thread. And they are *all* great!

My local "dog parks": http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...387-personal-views-dog-parks.html#post2288692


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## Wolfgeist

doggiedad said:


> wolves are pack animals
> but they visit other packs.



*Very, very, very wrong*. Sorry. Wolves are not social with non-pack members. They will attack and kill strange wolves that venture into their territory. They will not socialize with strange wolves unless they are ALONE, DISPERSED and looking to start a new pack on their own. I do not need to back up anything I am saying, because it has been proven and studied countless times and is available in books, videos and even clips on youtube.

*I repeat - wolves are NOT social to non-pack wolves and will not "visit" other packs.*

Because of my background in Animal Care and my lifelong dedication to the study and love of wolves, I am a firm believer in the idea that wolves and dogs are very similar. I strongly support the claim that dogs are pack animals, and asking them to share and play with strangers is against their psychology. I believe that through domestication they can water down their territorial and pack drives, but they will always be present - hence countless fights and disputes between strange dogs.


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## msvette2u

Interesting point you bring up...Temple Grandin, in "Animals make us Human" states that multiple dogs in a household is a very artificial way for them to live, that "in the wild" as people often refer to, they'd not have fences and what-not to constrain them, they'd be free to leave if one didn't like the other, etc. 
We do this to dogs, when we bring more animals into our homes, and thus, force dogs to live with one another. Some do quite well but as we see over, and over, that's not always the case.


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## jetscarbie

Wild wolf...very good point.

On that nova show..dogs decoded...they said that researchers took dna from 100's of different breeds..pure and mixed dogs. All test showed that all the dogs had 99 precent of the same DNA as the wolf. 

But when they raised a wolf pup and a dog pup by hand from birth....the wolf was still very wild. They noticed that the dog would always look at the human in the eyes where the wolf never would. The wolf pup was a little wild.

Don't know if the show was all the way right..but it was very interesting.


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## chelle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, call me a fool! I bring food and toys to the park so I can play with my dogs, and sometimes I do some training too. The whole reason we're there is throw balls and other toys for them to chase and retrieve, in and out of water, so if I couldn't bring a toy there'd be no reason to go to the park. I have a Chuck-it, tennis balls, a couple of Orbee balls on a rope, a tug toy, sometimes a frisbee toy, and we used to bring a Jolly Ball, although we haven't in awhile.


Ok, ok.. let me clarify that...  If you bring in food and spend your time around the gathering area, it is just asking for a lot of unwanted doggie attention. If you're the woman handing out dog bones to the dogs, you're asking for a fight when one drops one, one guards, etc. Sounds to me like you spend your time away from the picnic table sitters and you are not the bone lady. 



Lilie said:


> And there you have it. Some dogs enjoy the dog park, and some dogs don't.
> 
> I can assure you that no amount of socialization would have turned my boy into a social butterfly. That just isn't his bag. He'd enjoy a dog park, as long as it was empty. He just doesn't enjoy the company of silly acting strange dogs.......
> 
> If I did have a social butterfly, I don't think I'd take him/her to a dog park....
> 
> For me, it's simply a matter of the Con's out weighing the Pro's.


I have two dogs who do not go to the dog park. They don't care for it. I've taken them, but they get nothing out of it, simply do not enjoy it. Same for doggy daycare. 

My pup, at this point, is a social butterfly and that is why I keep going in a way. He doesn't have but two dog friends right now other than the two he lives with, who aren't into his puppy play so much. I'm not into doggy daycare so that won't be a social outlet. I wouldn't mind at all if he were simply "aloof" with other dogs, but I don't understand how keeping him away from dogs will teach him "aloof." I think time will perhaps teach him that. Or not. 

Agree, you do have to weigh the pros and cons. Everyone's choices are their own. I don't chastise anyone for *not* taking their dog, yet the anti dogpark folks seem to often make a louder arguement.



msvette2u said:


> *No...what I mean is, dog parks are for people to feel good about themselves as dog owners. It doesn't work out so great for dogs all the time, and yet you never see people considering once how the dog feels.* It's always "*I* enjoy taking *my* dog to a dog park". Sure, the dog may look at times as if it's having fun but I'm willing to bet that if you filmed it all and showed it to an expert in dog body language, that the dog is stressed much more than it is happy.


People to feel good about themselves as dog owners????? What? :rofl: I don't know about the pronoun usage, but I'm pretty sure when I talk about it, I say, "WE" are goin' to the park!! Because it is for US. Bailey loves it. I am very happy when Bailey is happy. He gets to play with the other dogs. Then we go walk together. Then we might go off to the side and work a few commands. Might play frisbee away from the crowd (so the other dogs don't confuse the game or start a fight over it) We practice recall. Once we've done all of that, we go home. 

Despite the whining, which he doesn't often do, this is *not* an unhappy, stressed dog!: (The vid freezes for a sec for some reason, that was when I told him to "sit," because he must calm down before I'll let him out of the car. And trust me, he knows exactly where he is and can't hardly wait to go in. I even have to put on his prong or he'll pull my arm out of the socket wanting to go in so bad.





 


billsharp said:


> In my experience most dogs are well-socialized and will greet other dogs with an open attitude and play nice together. The proof of this is all around us--the great number of people who have great experiences in dog parks, the multitude of facilities offering "doggie day care" type sitting where the dogs all romp with each other without problems. These aren't defined "packs" but rather impromptu gatherings of dogs who quickly play together--much like kids in a sandbox at the park. Sure, some will get along better, and some not at all, but that is also true for kids.
> 
> The most troublesome dogs I see by far are those (of any breed) who are raised inside, only trained in dealing with their immediate family, not used to dogs or strangers, and not disciplined or taught correct and incorrect behaviors. Again, just like human children. The parallels are really striking......


Good post.



JulieBays said:


> I am thinking about my two human kids now. Would I have expected them to play with different playmates all of the time? These are human kids and they are hard wired to "get along" with humans. Humans don't have the same pack behavior as dogs do. I think I would have some pretty messed up kids if I kept moving and put them in situations where they played with new playmates all of the time. But. we expect it from our dogs. Hmm... Dogs are less social than humans.


No, you couldn't do that to children in the way you explain, but don't we encourage our children to have friends, to be social creatures? To play nice? We don't keep our children in the home and only allow them a friend of two. We expose them, in many ways, similar to how we expose our dogs. Dog parks, as I'm finding, have a great many "regulars." It is certainly not always a brand new mess of dogs and people. In fact, it usually isn't. I've come to know the majority of dogs at the park. Sure, some new visitors pop in, but the majority are regulars.


Bottom line, we all decide what is best for our dogs. Nothing wrong with that. 

Myself, I'm more opposed to doggy daycare! That won't be a popular thing to say, but I just feel that way. I used to take my older two to daycare. The daycare had a "doggy cam" so you could check out what was going on. My dogs just weren't "into it." They seemed annoyed, not engaging in much play other than WITH EACH OTHER. Actually the only reason I did it was because I had an out-of-state wedding that would take me out of town for five days and I had decided to board there. I wanted them to be comfortable and used to that facility before I just stuck them there for five days. 

At least at the dogpark, if there is a troublemaker or your dog is done, or tired or whatever, you simply leave. At daycare, if there's a butthead of a dog, your dog is stuck with them all day long. Sure, if the butthead is way out of line, the daycare (if it is any good) will shut it down (hopefully). At daycare, you are not there to intercede or actually have any clue what happens. I don't like that. I'd have to trust a doggy daycare almost with my own life to take my dog there. Yet no one argues against doggy daycare. I find that interesting.


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## msvette2u

Oh...so I guess the fact people who live in apartments and condos really like dog parks so they can let their dog run off leash means nothing? 
When I say (what I did above) it's because of that. They feel guilty their dog has no yard so they think "dog park" before a 1:1 hike or training session. They console themselves with the fact there's always a park to go to, rather than try to find another solution, even for a dog I'd never recommend be brought to a dog park. For them, I recommend a small play group, but not the unstructured atmosphere that dogs parks can be. 

Oh, and my kids whine and carry on like that just going to Petsmart or Petco, where they know they'll be treated to a biscuit :laugh:


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## chelle

msvette2u said:


> Oh...so I guess the fact people who live in apartments and condos really like dog parks so they can let their dog run off leash means nothing?
> When I say (what I did above) it's because of that. They feel guilty their dog has no yard so they think "dog park" before a 1:1 hike or training session. They console themselves with the fact there's always a park to go to, rather than try to find another solution, even for a dog I'd never recommend be brought to a dog park. For them, I recommend a small play group, but not the unstructured atmosphere that dogs parks can be.
> 
> Oh, and my kids whine and carry on like that just going to Petsmart or Petco, where they know they'll be treated to a biscuit :laugh:


I don't know if I'm following you. I can't speak about those in apartments/condos. I'm in a house with a large yard. (Not luck, that was planning, I knew I'd have a dog/dogs.) I can't know how they rationalize their decisions and truth is, neither can you. Myself, I don't understand how city dwellers manage dog ownership at all. I can't imagine trekking down 2-3 flights of stairs for potty breaks, much less when housebreaking a pup. But they do it. Somehow. I can't imagine the nearest offleash hike/park, etc being 45 minutes or more away, as many say they are. I dunno. Would I do it? Nope. But hey, that's me and that's them. 

Seems like you're trying to impose your values, as far as what should be done, on other owners? You want them in "small play groups." I'm not at all opposed to that, but those aren't necessarily easy to find. And who says those groups have desirable playmates?

You speak of them feeling "guilty" and trying to "console themselves." Really? I mean, are you in their heart/mind? I just don't think that's fair. At the same time, you may not necessarily be off the mark, there... I've seen the lazy dog park picnic table sitters too many times to doubt that... but not every dogpark patron feels guilty and is attempting to console anything.

I do NOT feel guilty!!!!!!!!!!!  I bust my backside every single day for this dog. The dogpark is simply part of what we do sometimes. It is not a replacement for anything. It is an addition. 

Oh and on the hiking, yes and yes and another big huge whopping yes. I am 1000% for offleash hiking. I am LUCKY in that I have a GREAT place to go. Not everyone is. Not everyone is comfortable doing that. Not everyone has access like lucky people like me do. (1/2 mile away.)


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## JulieBays

Wow, I didn't expect this much participation in my thread! Thanks everyone! I hope you all have kept it nice.

Anyway, I was not trying to say that dog parks are bad. What I was trying to say is that our GSD's do not need other dogs. This is the easy interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I agree with a couple of posts that our GSD's can still be socialized but be aloof. My point was probably misunderstood by some. Sorry about that. I really didn't mean this to be a post about dog parks. Oh well.

BTW, Sasha loved the dog park we went to. She loves dogs and thinks that any other dog she meets is a playmate. Our dog park is a small, very small park with an area for big dogs and an area for small dogs. It was an accident waiting to happen. That being said, I really wasn't thinking about the dog park so much as the way that Sasha changed. When we first started going, she loved to meet the other dogs. I felt that she needed to learn dog language because I got her at 7 weeks of age. It was good for her. She is so sweet with both dogs and humans. She is not showing any fear of either now. Anyway, at about 4 1/2 months old I started to see a change in her. She started greeting the dogs with a lot of excitement as always but once we were in the park, she cared more about me and her "found" Frisbee. The problem with my local dog park is that there are lots of balls and frisbees for the dogs. This might be okay with some dogs but Sasha is obsessed with "her" Frisbee. I personally don't think it's a good idea to put any toys or food in a dog park. So, she was chasing "her" Frisbee and another dog grabbed it. Sasha nipped at him. The good thing is that it was a really bigger more aggressive dog I realized at that point that this was not going to work. I shouldn't expect my Sasha to understand that those Frisbees are community property. Ha, that's really all that started this thread.

So, after watching Sasha, I just wondered about domesticated dogs and their role in our lives. Not so much dog parks but the whole package of dogs in our lives. Sorry that it ended up in a dog park argument again. I should have been clearer.


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## msvette2u

> I can't speak about those in apartments/condos.





> Really? I mean, are you in their heart/mind? I just don't think that's fair. At the same time, you may not necessarily be off the mark, there.


No...but then again I don't have to be. I get applications via the rescue from folks like this all the time and that's the sentiment expressed. 

If you don't take your dog out of guilt because it's cooped up all day, that's great for all involved


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## JulieBays

*So, my original question is:*

Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.


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## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> Oh...so I guess the fact people who live in apartments and condos really like dog parks so they can let their dog run off leash means nothing?
> When I say (what I did above) it's because of that. They feel guilty their dog has no yard so they think "dog park" before a 1:1 hike or training session. They console themselves with the fact there's always a park to go to, rather than try to find another solution, even for a dog I'd never recommend be brought to a dog park. For them, I recommend a small play group, but not the unstructured atmosphere that dogs parks can be.


Who are you arguing against? :thinking: It would help if you were to quote a portion of the post you're responding to. Who is feeling guilty about no yard? Who is choosing a dog park instead of hiking or training sessions? Can't someone do all of the above?  Sorry, I'm just not sure I get your point here.


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## msvette2u

I responded to the person who posted above me...since her post was right above mine I didn't realize I needed to quote her...sorry 

I explained myself a couple posts later. Hope that helps.


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## Cassidy's Mom

chelle said:


> Ok, ok.. let me clarify that...  If you bring in food and spend your time around the gathering area, it is just asking for a lot of unwanted doggie attention. If you're the woman handing out dog bones to the dogs, you're asking for a fight when one drops one, one guards, etc. Sounds to me like you spend your time away from the picnic table sitters and you are not the bone lady.


Ah, I get it now! No, the places I go to don't have a "gathering area", basically everyone is walking along with their dogs, (who just happen to be off leash), or they're in an open area playing fetch with them. Point Isabel, where we go most often is over 20 acres, and right on the San Francisco Bay, so the dogs can swim. There are a few picnic tables scattered around, and some benches next to the paths, but we don't hang out there, we only stop if we want to give them some water.. Halo is only interested in her toys at the park, I could drop a steak on the ground in front of her and her response would be "throw the  BALL!!!" Keef will take treats, I sometimes call him to me for a reward and then release him, so I usually have some with me but not for handing out to other dogs.


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## msvette2u

JulieBays said:


> Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.


I don't think they do, no.
In rescue, though, we've seen dogs who were "into" other dogs and not interested in interacting with humans.


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## Jack's Dad

JulieBays said:


> Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.


I have had dogs for many years and dog parks and day care are relatively new, when you are my age. So the answer is no they don't need other dogs.

If dog parks etc.. work for people thats good. Jack has been a few times but doesn't play with other dogs anyway. He focuses on me. So there is not much point in taking him there.


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## MustLoveGSDs

JulieBays said:


> Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.



Obviously if it was a matter of life and death, no they do not need other dogs in their lives to be happy. A dog can perfectly thrive with humans as their pack mates. 


BUT if they are social dogs, why rain on someone's parade if they like to socialize their dogs with other 4 legged friends? My past GSD foster pup loved to be around a pack of dogs..AND she was adopted into a family with 7 other dogs and tons of acreage with horses, so according to Stella, she hit the jackpot


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## doggiedad

the documentary i saw showed that they do visit.



Wild Wolf said:


> *Very, very, very wrong*. Sorry. Wolves are not social with non-pack members. They will attack and kill strange wolves that venture into their territory. They will not socialize with strange wolves unless they are ALONE, DISPERSED and looking to start a new pack on their own. I do not need to back up anything I am saying, because it has been proven and studied countless times and is available in books, videos and even clips on youtube.
> 
> *I repeat - wolves are NOT social to non-pack wolves and will not "visit" other packs.*
> 
> Because of my background in Animal Care and my lifelong dedication to the study and love of wolves, I am a firm believer in the idea that wolves and dogs are very similar. I strongly support the claim that dogs are pack animals, and asking them to share and play with strangers is against their psychology. I believe that through domestication they can water down their territorial and pack drives, but they will always be present - hence countless fights and disputes between strange dogs.


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## Marnie

JulieBays said:


> Anyway, I was not trying to say that dog parks are bad. What I was trying to say is that our GSD's do not need other dogs. This is the easy interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I agree with a couple of posts that our GSD's can still be socialized but be aloof. My point was probably misunderstood by some. Sorry about that. I really didn't mean this to be a post about dog parks. Oh well.


I've already gone on record as saying my puppy is too dominant to be trusted in a dog park. I've only had the pup a month and I may go back to the parks when the pup has more training and a 100% solid recall. Some dogs do like dog parks a lot and do very well in them. I've seen old, arthritic dogs that seem to enjoy just laying in the shade and watching the youngsters romp. Other dogs are always alone but keep busy sniffing trees and posts. Some dogs never leave their owners sides but who is to say they don't get something from the stimulation around them.

No, dogs do not need other dogs nor do they need to play off leash in dog parks. Dogs do not need raw food, or to live inside a home, or to have premium dog foods, or to sleep in cushy dog beds, or to ride in cars. They don't need these things but their owners are trying very hard to make their dog's lives as enjoyable as possible. If you have watched your dog run and jump in pure joy with another friendly pup, you understand the owner's reason for visiting these parks.


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## martemchik

I don't think dogs need other dogs in their life to be happy, but there are some that enjoy that time they get to spend with other dogs. If you compare this to human behavior (and I know this is what we're not supposed to do), there are many people that don't need to go to bars/clubs/hang outs and are perfectly content with being with their family.

As for msvette, I finally understand what you're saying. Sadly you generalize so much because of the fact you work for a rescue and it comes out in the way you write, and maybe you don't mean to, you lump everyone that goes to the dog park into that category, you have a perfect world for dogs that you have built up over the years that involves small playgroups and other things. This is impossible, I have a play group about an hour away I can take my dog to, its a great dane and a bull dog. But, none of us have a fenced in area where they can play, so do you expect us to let 3 dogs loose inside a home somewhere? I take my dog to the park because I don't know anyone with a huge home or yard, I'm 22 years old, all my friends are just graduated from college, we don't own homes! Many of the people I see at my dog park are in my same shoes, they are young and don't own.

As for the whole dogs living in the wild thing, most of them would die. They have been bred to depend on humans, and the ones that do survive as strays are most likely scavengers. The most aggressive dogs would probably make it past a few generations, but most of our pets wouldn't. They haven't lived in the wild in thousands of generations and its been proven that it doesn't take long to breed a different nature into the "wolf" gene.


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## msvette2u

> As for msvette, I finally understand what you're saying. Sadly you generalize so much


What's sad about generalizing? Yes I do tend to, but that's because of things like this...
Man stabs dog at Fort Funston in San Francisco | abc7news.com

Dog Shot, Killed While Playing in Dog Park | NBC Washington

Federal Officer Shoots Dog | Federal police officer shot dog in Arundel park - Baltimore Sun

See, even when dogs are seemingly getting along with others, things like this can happen.
To me, it's one thing I can have control over in my own pack, and we strongly recommend adopters to be aware of situations like this before taking their own dogs to them.

I don't get what's "sad" about that? What's sad is assuming that your dog's going to do fine and have it get killed at a park...so preventable.

Oh, and we adopt to people with no fenced yard if they plan to walk it and exercise it (we adopt out primarily smaller breed or mixed breed dogs) but with hounds and larger dogs, especially Dobermans and GSDs, we require fenced yards.


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## PaddyD

Dog parks do not work for my dog. However we go to a park that has playing fields and meet one or 2 dogs that my dog LOVES to play with. They have a terrific time and enjoy each other's company. Occasionally they will come across a ball or toy left behind and take turns playing keepaway. If one takes it away the others chase, there is no hard feelings, all that matters is having a reason to chase. The owners like it because their dogs are socializing and getting a lot more exercise in a short period of time that they would not otherwise get. When we arrive at the park she knows if either of them is there and tracks their scent to find them.


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## msvette2u

We used to do that too when we had a small yard they could not exercise much in. It's fun for them, and I'm glad there are 'dog parks' out there that are so large you don't have to worry about other dogs (if your dog isn't dog park material).
For me...the bottom line is, maybe a dog is, or isn't dog park material. But it's too late to find out when your dog has injured or killed another dog, or been injured or killed.
If others want to take those chances, fine. Who am I to say they shouldn't?
But I won't take those risks with my dogs, and we strongly encourage our adopters don't find out the hard way, either.


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## martemchik

Your dog has a smaller chance of dying at a dog park then dying in your car on the way to the vet...I just don't understand that kind of risk aversion. I get the point about not risking your dogs life and if you don't have to and the dog will be perfectly happy not going to the park why put it at risk? But then why do anything? I'm not judging your view of this but in my mind statistically speaking I take much bigger risks with my dog on the days I don't bring him to the dog park than on the ones that he goes to one.


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## msvette2u

It goes back to things I can control, like not overvaccinating my dogs, and things I can't, like taking the dog to the vet in my car, unless they develop a transporter, that's a necessary thing.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> It goes back to things I can control, like not overvaccinating my dogs, and things I can't, like taking the dog to the vet in my car, unless they develop a transporter, that's a necessary thing.


Life is a risk. 

When you send your kids to school it's a risk. When they are teens and and start to drive it s a risk. 

My dog goes lots of places with me because he likes to. Everytime we get in a car both our lives are potentially at risk.

When I take my dog to the river or beach there is a risk. 

You could lock kids and dogs up and rarely let them out in the world but that is not living life, for either.

Rescue people do a great service but they view the world differently because of their experiences with awful situations. 

There is an expression, " I would rather wear out than rust". If people or dogs live by that there will be risks but it beats hiding yourself or dogs from life.


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## msvette2u

Jack's Dad said:


> Life is a risk.
> 
> When you send your kids to school it's a risk. When they are teens and and start to drive it s a risk.
> 
> My dog goes lots of places with me because he likes to. Everytime we get in a car both our lives are potentially at risk.
> 
> When I take my dog to the river or beach there is a risk.
> 
> You could lock kids and dogs up and rarely let them out in the world but that is not living life, for either.
> 
> Rescue people do a great service but they view the world differently because of their experiences with awful situations.
> 
> There is an expression, " I would rather wear out than rust". If people or dogs live by that there will be risks but it beats hiding yourself or dogs from life.


And again, there's risks you can control and ones you can't.

Curious what makes you think avoiding dog parks means "hiding from life"? We adopt to people who bring their dogs all over the place, including their work, and plenty of outdoorsy things. 
I get photos of our adopted dogs swimming (lots of those pics!), romping at beaches, hiking trips, at offices, and interacting with other dogs. 
View our "wall photos" if you don't believe me - you'll see a ton of happy dogs in various settings including at home and out-and-about - A PAW UP Rescue, E. WA - Photos | Facebook

Not wanting dogs at dog parks doesn't equal "hiding from life", with my dogs or myself or my kids...not sure where that came from!! :crazy:


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> And again, there's risks you can control and ones you can't.
> 
> Curious what makes you think avoiding dog parks means "hiding from life"? We adopt to people who bring their dogs all over the place, including their work, and plenty of outdoorsy things.
> I get photos of our adopted dogs swimming (lots of those pics!), romping at beaches, hiking trips, at offices, and interacting with other dogs.
> View our "wall photos" if you don't believe me - you'll see a ton of happy dogs in various settings including at home and out-and-about - A PAW UP Rescue, E. WA - Photos | Facebook
> 
> Not wanting dogs at dog parks doesn't equal "hiding from life", with my dogs or myself or my kids...not sure where that came from!! :crazy:


I thought you were talking about risks in general and the thread was beyond dog parks. I could care less about dog parks as I stated earlier. When I grew up and for a good portion of my adult life I never heard of a dog park.

My Jack is friendly but not really interested in other dogs so ther is not much point to him going to dog parks.

I understand why others use them and if it works for them that's great.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I have never been to a dog park before, so I really can't comment on that. However, as far as adult dogs (specifically GSDs) not wanting to play with non-pack members I haven't had that experience. Sasha LOVES to play with other dogs. She gets excited if she just hears her BFF Roxy's name. Roxy gives her things I can't. I can't truly chase Sasha like she would like. She enjoys it when I try, but I'll never come close to having the speed and stamina that Roxy and Sasha have. Now, I will say she loves playing with other dogs, provided they have good manners. She is very much like her mamma in that way. She will tolerate bad manners up to a point when she finally says, "Enough!" I have honestly only seen her be that way once, and it was when I was dog sitting another dog who was very resource gaurdy and everything was a resource to that dog including me. She finally had enough of Suzy not letting her come near me and told her about it. Even then, though, she was very forgiving. After a little cool down for both of them Sasha tried again to engage Suzy in play. I really think she would love it if she could see Roxy every day, I don't know if my sanity could handle being around the two of them everyday though lol! I don't go to dog parks not because of Sasha, but because I don't know if all the dogs there are truly dog friendly and I'm not willing to risk it with Sasha. Would she be happy and have a good time as long as all the other dogs were nice? I think so, but the risk is too great for me.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I don't see anyone here encouraging others to take their dogs to a park if it's something they're not interested in for whatever reason. If you don't have a dog that would enjoy it or could be trusted off leash around strange dogs, fine. If you don't have a decent place near you without a bunch of poorly socialized untrained dogs and their poorly socialized and untrained owners, fine. If you are opposed to the very concept even though your dog/s might be okay at a park, fine. If you're concerned about health risks, fine. If you're not sure if your dog would do well at a park and don't want to find out the hard way, fine. If you have lots of other options where your dog can enjoy running free off leash without other dogs around, fine. Don't go, but stop trying to get everyone else not to go just because it doesn't work for you. (The general "you", not anyone in particular.)

I'm sure most people who frequent dog parks or off leash areas are aware of the risks. I think we have to trust that they can tell if their dog is enjoying it or not, and if they can't - well, that's not our problem, is it?


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## RocketDog

My pup has several dog friends we get together with--dogs who belong to good friends of mine, whom I know how they've raised them and whether their dogs are aggressive or not. Some are young, some are old. One of his "best" friends is a 9 yo Collie/shep mix who plays GREAT with him. Then he has a 4 yo visla mix friend who freaking runs and bounces and plays frothily with him until we finally say "time to go home". He's met actually a couple of dogs at a big park (not dog park) on leash, where after some conversation the owner and I let them play for 10-15 mins. Went great. I feel it is good for him to learn manners from older dogs. 

My yellow lab couldn't have cared less about playing with other dogs. He had ONE dog he PLAYED with, a black lab pup the neighbors got at 8 weeks. The only dog he ever played with. He was "friends" with the collie mix, and we camped with them, had dinner together for years...but they never "played". He was absolutely STELLAR rock freakin' solid with other dogs, people and situations, but he preferred his people over anything else. Especially me.  If he'd never seen another dog in his life he couldn't have cared less, seriously. When he'd meet them, he'd give them a neutral sniff if I said ok, and that's it. Then he'd sit and ignore them.


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## msvette2u

As for socialization...our dogs get to interact with new dogs on an almost daily basis. This is because of the rescue as we integrate dogs into and out of our pack so often.

Some of my dogs are very unreliable with other dogs and the small, controlled setting allows us to watch them like hawks to avoid knock-down-drag-outs


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## selzer

Joy is such a different dog in some ways. If the question was posed about dogs being completely happy/content without other dogs before Joy graced my existence, I would flat out say "no." Joy on the other hand LOVES dogs. She loves me more, but she is great with her litter mates, both male and female that she has visited with. She likes other dogs in class, likes total strangers at shows. She is a dog that would probably thrive in a dog park. Of course she is happy/content wherever she is. Does she need outside dogs, no. But if I had no other dogs, I wonder how she would be.


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## msvette2u

I can think of at least one of ours who'd be happier as an only dog, who didn't interact with other dogs. Libby jumps to mind. She doesn't even consider herself a dog...


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## Remo

I have been lucky enough to have had the experience of hundreds of different dogs living with me over the years. Some dogs LOVE to play with other dogs. Other dogs have no interest in other dogs at all and only seek attention from people. Each dog is different. Some dogs are absolutely miserable without another dog buddy around. When I foster one of these dogs, I will not adopt them out to a house that does not have another dog in residence. There was a dog named Louise, who was almost feral when she came to us. She was on her own for quite some time and had mastered the art of flipping over rocks and grabbing earthworms to eat! Louise was terrified of people (except me after months and months of effort) but she completely happy and relaxed when she was in the company of other dogs. There is no way on earth that I would have adopted Louise out to someone that did not have another dog in the home. The ones crave attention from other dogs are called "dog dogs" at our house. 

Also, quite a few people that go to dog parks are just there to socialize amongst themselves and pay no attention to their dogs. That is when bad situations start to happen. The group in Reston, for the most part, is pretty attentive to their dogs and if someone's dog is being a butthead, they are asked to leave. I found that my training Remo in the park encouraged others to do the same. It would be nice to think that our training efforts helped others become more involved with their own dog's training. People kept asking us, almost every day ..... who trained your dog? They were always surprised when I told them I did.


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## sharkey19

JulieBays said:


> What are we expecting from our dogs? Are they human children wanting to be altruistic and learn to play with others? Heck no. Dogs are pack animals! They want to play with their pack. How about sharing toys and food? Human children learn very early that this is a good thing. *Dogs can't learn this*. Not in the same way humans process it. It's not fair to dogs. They don't have the same frontal lobe development in their brains that humans have. You give them a toy, food or whatever, it's theirs. They don't understand sharing. Oh, they will give their pack member a gift but it's not the same as giving a NON pack member a gift. I hope I'm making sense. I am just sort of fed up with all of the aggression threads regarding dog parks and expecting our GSD's to be so altruistic and loving. They are not people! We are a different species! Sorry for the rant. I was an Anthropology graduate in college. It just pisses me off that people keep anthropomorphizing their dogs. I'm guilty too but come on people!!! Let's be clear about the differences.


I agree in that dogs are not people, they shouldn't be treated like people. I think people who treat their dogs like children end up having poorly behaved dogs. That being said, I am not going to excuse bad behaviours by saying "Its a dog". I'm not sure if you are only referring to dog-dog interactions? But I definitely would expect that dogs be trained not to be food or toy aggressive around people. 

And yes, people should only take their dog to the dog park if the dog enjoys it. My dog loves it. And it is good for people to get out and socialize with other dog owners, just like people talk to each other on here. I love running into other GSDs at the park because they play so similarly. However, if my dog didn't like going and interacting with other dogs, then I would definitely not force him to.


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## martemchik

Getting back to the original topic, I think we all humanize not just our dogs but all of our other animals. Anything that lives in our home will be humanized. But I refuse to believe my dog is as hard-core of a pack animal as a wolf is. Just watching the few documentories that I've seen it shows how quickly you can breed the pack mentality out of a canine and its been happening for thousands of years. Dogs are very good at mimicing our actions and when they see us getting along at a park they can do the same thing. I think that _most _dogs are very good at accepting others into their "pack" when they see us do it so they are quite happy at dog parks and its not something that is forced.


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## chelle

Also back to the original topic  .... I guess I humanize Bailey, sure. He sleeps in a dog bed but is allowed on the human bed at times, too. Has lots of toys. (He got his first "jolly ball" today and he's having great fun with it!) He lives in the house and lays on my furniture if I don't want to sit/lay there. He goes to school. He's being "educated" to act less like a wild dog and more like a civilized member of the home. I suppose that is humanizing him.? I don't see how I'm trying to humanize him by the dog park stuff, but that's been sufficiently argued so I'll leave it there!


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## chelle

msvette2u said:


> ... What's sad is assuming that your dog's going to do fine and have it get killed at a park...so preventable.


I can't quote a study, but I'd be willing to bet the odds of this happening are exceedingly low.



JulieBays said:


> Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.


Need? No, don't think so. But for some who enjoy other dogs, I can't see it to possibly be a bad thing in any way to have dogs to play with. I also think, in my very uneducated opinion, that dog socialization young may help to avoid DA in the future. 



Jack's Dad said:


> Life is a risk.
> 
> When you send your kids to school it's a risk. When they are teens and and start to drive it s a risk.
> 
> My dog goes lots of places with me because he likes to. Everytime we get in a car both our lives are potentially at risk.
> 
> When I take my dog to the river or beach there is a risk.
> 
> You could lock kids and dogs up and rarely let them out in the world but that is not living life, for either.
> 
> Rescue people do a great service but they view the world differently because of their experiences with awful situations.
> 
> There is an expression, " I would rather wear out than rust". If people or dogs live by that there will be risks but it beats hiding yourself or dogs from life.


Agree. We take risks any time we move. I'd rather wear out, too. I'm well on my way. 



msvette2u said:


> As for socialization...our dogs get to interact with new dogs on an almost daily basis. This is because of the rescue as we integrate dogs into and out of our pack so often.


Well that's good, so your dogs interact with new dogs every day, but the rest of us shouldn't allow it? Hmm. What about those who don't have many (or any!) doggy friends? I accidentally deleted the other part you said about this being under tight control, but if you are being a responsible dog park patron, you have your dog under control, you leave if another isn't under control and you are there paying attention to everything going on.



msvette2u said:


> .....For me...the bottom line is, maybe a dog is, or isn't dog park material. But it's too late to find out when your dog has injured or killed another dog, or been injured or killed.
> If others want to take those chances, fine. Who am I to say they shouldn't? But I won't take those risks with my dogs, and we strongly encourage our adopters don't find out the hard way, either.


An owner knows whether their dog is dog park material or not. The dog may be a wonderful dog park dog and be injured, so that really has nothing to do with it... You've chosen to not take that risk. I have chosen to take it. You won't talk me out of it and I won't try to talk you into it.


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## NancyJ

Liesje said:


> Honestly I think it's great that many if not most dogs seem to really enjoy dog parks and dog daycare. I don't have easy access to the former and can't afford/don't need the latter but for those that do, I think they are great options and great fun for dogs. I live in the city but am lucky to have a small yard (a "huge" one in this neighborhood) where my dogs can play with each other for hours but in many urban areas, dog parks are the only realistic option.
> 
> I just don't agree that a dog *should* enjoy these things or that it's any indication of how well socialized the dog is. When I get a new puppy I take it to work every day for the first two months so the pup is meeting new people and seeing something new *every* day. I do prioritize how a dog interacts with people and new environments/sense more than dogs but I do *not* allow reactivity or fixation on other dogs. I do the CGC with all my dogs, usually multiple times (Pan has his first test next week). I've never had any of my dogs get in a fight, either with each other or another dog. I've never had any issues with any of my dogs at the vet. Last time I was there with Nikon, a rude little dog charged over to him and started sniffing and licking at the infection on his foot that was very painful and Nikon just laid there still until I was done telling the owner it's not a good idea to let your dog charge up to a strange dog, much less an injured or sick dog at the vet's office. We also go to a friend's pool and have 3-4 intact dogs off leash at a time and everyone is playing with their own toy not bothering each other. Just because a dog is not a social butterfly does not mean there is something wrong with the dog or the dog is undersocialized. I am not really interested in how wild animals life in packs. GSDs are a very modern breed and according to the breed standard they are not social butterflies but are calm and neutral/aloof. I look for this in all of my GSDs and this is how I approach their socialization.


I am 100% in agreement. When I bought a young adult who had been raised and socialized this way and realized he was THE best dog around other dogs because of his neutrality..he actually has very good canine communication skills as well...and that he was also the best for actually working because he could do his cadaver search work and not be distracted by other dogs..I saw this as the model of where I have wanted to go. I have seen both social butterflies and dog neutral dogs on our team and think there is much to be said for the latter for a working dog.

We need to get the word social out of socialization...it is part of it but the bigger part is exposing the pup to a rich and varied world.


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## Wolfgeist

doggiedad said:


> the documentary i saw showed that they do visit.



No, they really don't. In all my years of study and research I have never seen such a thing.


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## Liesje

Thanks, Nancy. And FWIW I brought Nikon to Pan's CGC class tonight so the young dogs could practice the "strange neutral dog" exercise on a brand new dog. Nikon was awesome, perfect heeling and auto-sits, barely so much as glanced at the dogs-in-training. Ironic that the dog who doesn't really care to socialize with random dogs showed the best behavior?

Of course dogs enjoy being part of a pack and being with other dogs. That's why I have three dogs at home. Short of some restriction I can't control, I don't see myself ever having just one dog, I think 3-4 is a manageable number for me and creates more of a "pack" dynamic in the household.


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## JulieBays

*Thank you!*

I wanted to thank everyone for their opinions. I'm so new to the GSD world that I wanted to see what you all thought. I have a great pup. I just want the best for her. I know that she is showing signs of a certain aloofness but I also have the bug to get another pup. lol I have read the threads on two puppies. I'm not going there. So, I appreciate your thoughts. I am going to stop taking Sasha to the dog park only because it's a bad park and not big enough. I'll continue the training and take her out to dog venues and to see other dogs. Thanks again.


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## msvette2u

> You won't talk me out of it and I won't try to talk you into it.


Chelle, I don't get what part of stating my opinion is trying to talk you out of it, but I would never try to tell people what to do. But I will state my opinions as everyone else has in this thread. There's many acceptable risks, which are probably different to everyone, but to me, that's an unacceptable risk that I will not take with my dogs. 
I'm sorry that my stating that is somehow translating into you feeling that's trying to talk you out of it.


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## chelle

msvette2u said:


> Chelle, I don't get what part of stating my opinion is trying to talk you out of it, but I would never try to tell people what to do. But I will state my opinions as everyone else has in this thread. There's many acceptable risks, which are probably different to everyone, but to me, that's an unacceptable risk that I will not take with my dogs.
> I'm sorry that my stating that is somehow translating into you feeling that's trying to talk you out of it.


Ah, don't be sorry. :blush: I do respect that it is something you don't want to do. I just don't want to be looked down on because it is something that, for now, works for us. I really do have my dog's best interests at heart. :wub:


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## msvette2u

I understand. I think we all do, really, or we wouldn't be on here trying to learn new or better ways to be caretakers 
Oh and I'd never look down on anyone at all for taking their dog there, but do talk to adopters about potential pit falls of dog parks in attempts to avoid those pit falls. Depending on the dog, we do flatly recommend against them at times, too, to those adopters.


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## chelle

msvette2u said:


> I understand. I think we all do, really, or we wouldn't be on here trying to learn new or better ways to be caretakers
> Oh and I'd never look down on anyone at all for taking their dog there, but *do talk to adopters about potential pit falls of dog parks in attempts to avoid those pit falls*. Depending on the dog, we do flatly recommend against them at times, too, to those adopters.


And actually, I'm glad you do! I'll be the first to admit the dog park is NOT the best place for quite a few dogs. It takes 1. a dog that wants to be there, that likes dogs and 2. an owner who is on top of things and isn't afraid to step in, leave or whatever is called for. If an owner thinks they'll just stroll on in, sit down and relax and let the doggies go at it, they're way, dead wrong. Maybe literally.


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## msvette2u

Well...one of the incidents I mentioned earlier occurred in a park in Seattle, where most our dogs end up being adopted to, and it scares me to think it might happen again over a misunderstanding.


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## Butch Cappel

test yesy


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## prophecy

JulieBays said:


> *One other thing that humans have that dogs don't. An intricate language.* Dogs depend on signals that we, as humans, don't always understand. Humans on the other hand, are hard wired for words. At an early age (before the age of one) we already understand the grammar of our native language. We depend on it.


I disagree.I think dogs DO have an intricate language.I find dogs to have a very complex language system,that is played out in sounds,gazes,posture and scent.
If we take what ''language'' is,as it is a tool for communication.I find dogs to have an equally intricate system as we do. Our speech is formed of sounds and gestures that represent feelings,ideas and relay information. We communicate also with scent(though we aren't consious of this).We learn to interperate these things as children.(puppies learn this as well from adult dogs)Human phermones are no differant than scents dogs pick up off each other(dogs in urine/scat-We use each others sweat).Gazes are exchanged in both human and dogs,body postures are used in both species.....So how do you figure that they do not possess intricate language??


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## JulieBays

Butch Cappel said:


> test yesy


What the heck is this? I'm just wondering. Weird....


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## JulieBays

prophecy said:


> I disagree.I think dogs DO have an intricate language.I find dogs to have a very complex language system,that is played out in sounds,gazes,posture and scent.
> If we take what ''language'' is,as it is a tool for communication.I find dogs to have an equally intricate system as we do. Our speech is formed of sounds and gestures that represent feelings,ideas and relay information. We communicate also with scent(though we aren't consious of this).We learn to interperate these things as children.(puppies learn this as well from adult dogs)Human phermones are no differant than scents dogs pick up off each other(dogs in urine/scat-We use each others sweat).Gazes are exchanged in both human and dogs,body postures are used in both species.....So how do you figure that they do not possess intricate language??



Admittedly, I should have wrote, spoken language. We use intricate sounds from our vocal cords. However, I agree that dogs do have a "language" too. And, I agree that we humans don't even get the fact that we are relying on other cues. We do. I agree with you.


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## GSKnight

For all of you that don't like to go to dog parks because of the other dogs, I discovered something yesterday...

If you want to have the place all to yourself, go during the Steelers game (here anyway). Not another dog/person in sight!!!


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## wolfstraum

LOL LOL LOL LOL And I grocery shop when there is a game on! 

No lines!


Lee


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## Pepper311

Another dog park thing. I have been going to the dog park a lot lately. I always watch my dog and other dogs. I watch for trouble by dog body language. If I see any sign of problems we go. 

I have 3 dogs my little ones goes to the dog park to learn I train him there to focus on me. I reward good behavior because he is not a social dog. I never push him to love dogs or expect him to. I only take him to the little dog side and only if there are very few dogs. Since going he has gotten better and less fearful of strangers when out. 

My other dog is an old pit bull he gets nothing out of the dog park. so I don't take him. He does not want to play he could care less about other dogs. He is well socialize and trained. He is good with other dogs and people. But has no want to run and play with others dogs so why go.

My pup loves to meet new dogs she loves to play she loves the action. So I take her to dog parks. She also is very good with others dogs I want to keep it that way. She knows well how to avoid problems. She was raised by a pack of 15 other GSD at a rescue. There are a few regulars at the park she is getting to know. It's fun for us. But not all dogs are dog park dogs and people need to except that. 

People need to be more aware or what dogs are saying to each other at the park. Too many people brings dogs to the park and can't read dog body language. You can tell when a fight will break out before it happens if you watch.


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## Tiffseagles

JulieBays said:


> Do our dogs need other dogs in their lives to be happy and well rounded companions? I hope this question is clearer than my others because I am an idiot most of the time.


Otis wasn't around many dogs as a pup. To this day, he is fine being around other off leash dogs as long as the other dogs leave him alone. He is not reactive on leash to neutral dogs but may be reactive to some dogs that are first reactive to him. I don't think his reactivity has anything to do with him not having played with other dogs as a pup but more because he will not just lie down and take it if another dog starts something. 

At the same time, this is a dog that was just introduced to a new puppy and has accepted her as part of the 'pack' and loves playing with her. He would still rather play with a human family member and will forever choose a known dog (like the new puppy) or person or toy to play with over a strange dog.

He goes a lot of places: hikes, fishing, long walks, weight pull events, etc. and never needs to meet another dog. He seems pretty darn happy to me!

I am not one that believes that a dog that attacks or kills another animal/dog is a 'bad' dog. I think they are just acting like animals. I've known quite a few dogs euthanized for dog aggression that could have lived happy, long lives never coming in contact with another dog again.

The short answer to my post is 'No, they do not *need* dog friends to be happy.'


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