# New IPO rules



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Since we now have a second USCA judge as a member, I thought I would start a thread to discuss the new rules coming in 2012.  

Frank, can you cover some of the high points (or low depending on how one looks at it) and the biggest changes that we will have to worry about (and train for)? 

Thank you,


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

May I be introduced to Frank? Since I'm in Canada, perhaps I could be excused for not recognizing the name. thanks.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi Lisa



Ok I will try a few...But while I am still judging trials this year I have not completely studied the new rules as I don't want to confuse myself...LOL

The New BH 
Heeling on leash and off leash is the same. sit in motion is much easier, 10-15 build up stop take a basic, give the sit command and then walk 15 paces away, return. The down in motion is the same build up and stop as sit, except you walk 30 paces away and then recall.
The down under distraction is no longer always a complete 10 pt loss if the dog breaks.
the rule says "If the dog leaves the designated area by more than 3 meters prior to the other dog completing exercise 2, then the exercise is evaluated with zero points. If the dog leaves the designated area after the end of exercise 2, then a deduction of 3 points will result."


In tracking the explaination to us at the Judges meeting was, slight praise during the track for IPO1 still OK, Ipo2 & 3 NO, only at the articles. Praise still before OR after you show the articles but not both.
You MUST follow the dog!!! No more when the dog takes a left turn the handler swings out wide right to keep a tight line...Nope, handler help!

Obedience: buildups and commands are still the same. Only difference is in paces after the command, 15 if you return to the dog, 30 if a recall exercise.

Retrieves are judged slightly different. Now a dog must do 2 out of 3 portions of the jumping retrieves, so technically the dog could jump over, jump back no retrieve at all and get partial points...No Longer now One of the 2/3 MUST be "completing" the retrieve portion. Hint to handlers, if dog drops the dumbbell at your feet and you pick it up he did NOT complete the retrieve and you will lose ALL points, give the second bring command and have the dog pick it up and save yourself some points....but don't move your feet or position.....

Protection, the handler MUST check in for protection, IPO1 on leash to check in and then out to middle of the field, IPO2 on leash to check in, then leash off to heel out to center of field. IPO3 off leash entire time. 
Handler MUST give a "go" (type) command at the escape. Handler does the same putting dog into down and then return to the blind, handler watches Judge and when Judge signals Helper to run the handler gives a "Go" command....This was to apease some in europe that the dog is not biting someone running away all on his own....

After Check out at the end, the handler heels off leash to the critique area before he puts the leash back on the dog....they do not want dogs looking out of control going crazy at the end of the leash while the handler tries to drag them off the field....

that's all I can think of off the top of my head right now...But I just got the SV DVD's showing routines and explainations in the mail (haven't watched yet) but I will let you know if there is anything else....


The english rules are also availible to anyone now for anyone to download...

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf


Hope this helps some

Frank


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Hi Frank! Welcome to the board!

Thanks for the info. A couple questions when you have time.

Is it true that we can no longer take a step back to help get more leverage when throwing the dumbbell? If so, for those of us who might have to, what is the penalty? All points because we "broke basic position" or are there now points within the exercise allocated to the throw itself? How will this be handled?

With the new rule for having to heel off lead for the critique, as there are no points associated with this I'm assuming it's a case that if the dog doesn't heel it's a DQ, regardless of how the actual pointed routine was performed? Given this new requirement, will there be instructions to the helpers on how to leave the field once they are dismissed after the side transport, so as to give consideration to the dog (e.g. not following closely behind the dog, or running off the field waving the sleeve on their way to get a drink before getting back in the blind, etc...)


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Frank-

Is it only in the BH that the judge can now touch/handle the dog at any point, or is it in the 1-3 also? Is it mandatory to touch the dogs, or is it at the judge's discretion?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Is it true that we can no longer take a step back to help get more leverage when throwing the dumbbell? If so, for those of us who might have to, what is the penalty? All points because we "broke basic position" or are there now points within the exercise allocated to the throw itself? How will this be handled?


 
The FCI President (one of the authors of the new rules) was at our judges meeting and he said Yes, you are correct, you can not move your feet to throw... Then I spoke to the Head Judge of another European country and he said no, it is OK....so I think it will be up to the interpretation of the rule by the Judge...But to me the rule says NO, you can not move...here is the revelent part of the rule:

_"b) Execution: From the basic position the handler (HF) throws a dumbbell (650grams) approximately 10 meters out. The command (HZ) to “bring” may first be given when the dumbbell comes to a full stop. The handler may not move from his position."_


It only has to be thrown 10 meters, so i would try to not move your feet when throwing, I tell the people in my club that have trouble throwing the 3 DB to throw it kind of flat and let it roll to the 10 meters.....




Chris Wild said:


> With the new rule for having to heel off lead for the critique, as there are no points associated with this I'm assuming it's a case that if the dog doesn't heel it's a DQ, regardless of how the actual pointed routine was performed? Given this new requirement, will there be instructions to the helpers on how to leave the field once they are dismissed after the side transport, so as to give consideration to the dog (e.g. not following closely behind the dog, or running off the field waving the sleeve on their way to get a drink before getting back in the blind, etc...)


 I was told at the Judges meeting to keep the helper there in the general area of the judge until the dog is in the designated area and on leash before the helper leaves the field.....But I will train for both, just in case...


Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

SchHGSD said:


> Frank-
> 
> Is it only in the BH that the judge can now touch/handle the dog at any point, or is it in the 1-3 also? Is it mandatory to touch the dogs, or is it at the judge's discretion?


 During the temperment test (all levels) the dog must allow himself to be touched....But it will be up to the judge if he does or not....It doesn't say it is manditory but the dog must allow it....

I have to go track now and then pack to go Judging this weekend, but i will check back here on Monday....Have a good weekend everyone...


Hope this helps some...


Frank


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have one! On page 38 of the new rules, for the ZTP is this: 
"When the dog grips, he receives 2 soft stick hits from the helper".

Is that two soft hits, or two hits with a soft stick?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks, Frank. 

I'm just thinking for a lot of people, especially our junior handlers (and more than a few adults to be honest), chucking the 3 DB the required distance from a flat footed position is going to be awfully difficult and I would hope some consideration would be given to the handler's sheer physical ability in that case especially since I don't see the relevance in terms of judging the dog and training. Though the rolling it isn't a bad idea.. time to brush up the bowling skills.



schh3fh2 said:


> I was told at the Judges meeting to keep the helper there in the general area of the judge until the dog is in the designated area and on leash before the helper leaves the field.....But I will train for both, just in case...
> 
> 
> Frank


This is sort of what I was envisioning. Send dog and handler back downfield to the critique area, then helper is truly dismissed and judge comes along afterward. 

Either that or another, really long, no points associated side transport. 

Knowing all the dogs out there who are well versed in the routine as it was and thus know when they are off the clock and can free up their behavior, and all the helpers well habituated to know when they're off the clock too and can take a break and do whatever they want, and all the spectators habituated to whooping and hollering and clapping as soon as the transport is over getting everyone all riled up again.... I could see all sorts of things going wrong here while people retrain their dogs (and themselves). So I was hoping this was something the judges had put their heads together on how to handle. 

Am I correct to assume that failure to heel to the critique position would be a DQ, regardless of the routine performance then, or are points being assigned to this portion now?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

my question is about the escape. I guess I don't care one way or the other. Now is this some meaningless rule where the helper runs and the handler yells "go" command instantly it's really the same as before? except the handler can give a command.

or is it going to be like the long "grip" where we have to wait for the judges signal to command our dogs? I'm sure I read that a dog that left early would lose a point or two, so for those that are going to be training this, and would like to show our dogs can hold the down till sent, is the distance the helper has to run be increased? I mean, i'm not fast, but if somebody is holding their dog in a down for a second, I can cover enough ground that i'll get to the end point of the exercise before the dog gets me, how will that be accounted for?

or will it matter? as long as the handler says something quick enough, everybody is happy?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> I'm just thinking for a lot of people, especially our junior handlers (and more than a few adults to be honest), chucking the 3 DB the required distance from a flat footed position is going to be awfully difficult and I would hope some consideration would be given to the handler's sheer physical ability in that case especially since I don't see the relevance in terms of judging the dog and training.


MMyeah that would be me! I'm not "junior" and I may be a tomboy but I definitely throw "like a girl". My DH is going to love helping me learn to throw, lol. Or I'll just take the step and take a small hit, whatever, I'm proud of my dog's retrieves and don't want to throw short!

Thanks for the other clarifications, this is really helpful.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Liesje said:


> Or I'll just take the step and take a small hit.


Thing is, are we sure it's a "small hit"? 

The language about the handler not breaking basic position during the retrieves has always been in the rules in one form or another. So I'm not sure how or why the new interpretation of that meaning we can't take that step to get leverage to throw has come about, since it's always been fine before. 

Under that basic position thing though, the way it used to be anyway, the handler breaking basic position was to result in a loss of ALL points on the retrieve. Not just a small hit. I've only seen this happen if the handler steps forward to cue the dog to go out, or steps back to draw the dog in on the return. Which I'm pretty sure is the intent of the wording, and can understand being penalized that heavily. 

But now if stepping back to throw is also being considered a break of basic position, then it could result in losing all points... meaning people could potentially fail obedience due to their inability to chuck hunks of wood. 

I can't imagine that is the intent here. Hence hoping for clarification.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you Frank.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Thanks, Frank.
> 
> chucking the 3 DB the required distance from a flat footed position is going to be awfully difficult and I would hope some consideration would be given to the handler's sheer physical ability in that case especially since I don't see the relevance in terms of judging the dog and training.



I'm with you on that. I am 5'4" and weigh 125lbs. Plus I now have rotator cuff tendonitis in my right shoulder (although it finally seems to be improving), so getting height and distance with the big dumbell is somewhat problematic for me.
I guess I could see how movement during the throw could be considered a signal or something to the dog, but it's kind of a stretch and that rule seems to miss the spirit of the exercise. 

Oh, and thanks for the thread, very useful!

Annette


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I have one! On page 38 of the new rules, for the ZTP is this:
> "When the dog grips, he receives 2 soft stick hits from the helper".
> 
> Is that two soft hits, or two hits with a soft stick?


 
Hi Anne

These are the FCI english versions of the rules, there are some grammer mistakes. It was discussed at the judges meeting to have ONE set of english rules for all AWDF member orgs and the GSSCC (as there were judges from all orgs at the meeting) and it would be much better for handlers to only have one set of translated rules....there will also be variences (# of dogs a handler can show ect...)


Frank


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

So... no more sit out of montion in the BH???? :thinking: That sucks!! You stop, tell the dog sit, and then walk away?  That to me is not a sit out of motion. :nono:
Wish now I had done my BH before these new rules take effect. BTW when do they take effect???


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Wish now I had done my BH before these new rules take effect. BTW when do they take effect???


January 1st.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Am I correct to assume that failure to heel to the critique position would be a DQ, regardless of the routine performance then, or are points being assigned to this portion now?


There are not points associated with this but if the dog is Out of Control then it can be a DQ, just like heeling down field after first side transport before the long attack (no points associated but DQ if out of control)... The "performance" is not over until AFTER the critique and points are awarded....

Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

crackem said:


> my question is about the escape. I guess I don't care one way or the other. Now is this some meaningless rule where the helper runs and the handler yells "go" command instantly it's really the same as before? except the handler can give a command.
> 
> or is it going to be like the long "grip" where we have to wait for the judges signal to command our dogs? I'm sure I read that a dog that left early would lose a point or two, so for those that are going to be training this, and would like to show our dogs can hold the down till sent, is the distance the helper has to run be increased? I mean, i'm not fast, but if somebody is holding their dog in a down for a second, I can cover enough ground that i'll get to the end point of the exercise before the dog gets me, how will that be accounted for?
> 
> or will it matter? as long as the handler says something quick enough, everybody is happy?


 

yes, same as before except the handler MUST give a command, no command = -1 pt.... It is so the general public does not think our dogs are biting a person running away all on their own....

It is NOT that the dog has to hold the position while helper moves...... You will put your dog into the down position same as before, return to the blind, same as before, judge will signal helper to run, same as before, handler will be watching the judge and when the judge signals the helper to go the handler gives a "go" type command....that simple.....


Frank


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

gagsd said:


> January 1st.


Hmmm, still might have time.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Thing is, are we sure it's a "small hit"?
> 
> The language about the handler not breaking basic position during the retrieves has always been in the rules in one form or another. So I'm not sure how or why the new interpretation of that meaning we can't take that step to get leverage to throw has come about, since it's always been fine before.
> 
> ...


 Here is how the rule is written now...

_"Throwing the dumbbell too short and handler (HF) help without changing position leads to point deduction. If the handler ( HF) leaves his position before the end of the exercise, the exercise will be evaluated as “unsatisfactory” If the dog does not retrieve, the exercise will be evaluated with “0” points. "_


This means if the handler breaks basic on the flat retrieve a deduction of atleast 4 points is taken. 5 points on jumps.

It is NOT a small hit.....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Carolina I have the same problem! Pan's sit out of motion is fantastic, maybe his best exercise! We've worked so hard on that because he has such a short attention span and is more likely to break a sit than a down (even with the new shorter distance). He's two weeks too young to do a BH at our trial and no one in our area has trials in December.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It's a BH. One trains for the 3. The rule change is silly, but not that big of a deal.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think any of them are that big of a deal I just don't see the purpose for it since the exercise is done differently for the 1-3 and you're right, train for the 3. Someone said on Sat that you can still do it the way it is now, you don't have to stop but you can?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't think any of them are that big of a deal I just don't see the purpose for it since the exercise is done differently for the 1-3 and you're right, train for the 3. Someone said on Sat that you can still do it the way it is now, you don't have to stop but you can?


you can, but you will loose points for doing the build up incorrectly......I will also do the same I always do, train for IPO3 and then just stop and give copmmand a couple of times before hand to make sure he will do it...It is not different the the down or the stand for me now, I train for the running buildup and then do the walking buildup a few times before the IPO1 and IPO2 trials to make sure he does it......It is not a big deal....


Frank


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

schh3fh2 said:


> Here is how the rule is written now...
> 
> _"Throwing the dumbbell too short and handler (HF) help without changing position leads to point deduction. If the handler ( HF) leaves his position before the end of the exercise, the exercise will be evaluated as “unsatisfactory” If the dog does not retrieve, the exercise will be evaluated with “0” points. "_
> 
> ...


This one disturbs me the most, because for the 15 years I have been doing this sport, I always move my right leg back as I throw, and I STILL have issues throwing far enough. In fact, at my first SchH1 (Frank you were there!) the judge commented on how short I threw my dumbbell. He then also commented he gave me a break since I was so short. :blush:

But habit will be hard to break. On the plus side, I will finally stop stepping on my dog when I move my right leg back!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh my, if I were a judge I would not read that rule about the DB to refer to the throw. The context is talking about "handler help". I would then read the rule as applying to the handler moving after the toss and actually moving out of the first position In order to assist the dog in some way in improving performance. If it is not this, what is the purpose of the rule?

Michelle, are you saying that you also move your left leg when you toss?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Samba said:


> Oh my, if I were a judge I would not read that rule about the DB to refer to the throw. The context is talking about "handler help". I would then read the rule as applying to the handler moving after the toss and actually moving out of the first position In order to assist the dog in some way in improving performance. If it is not this, what is the purpose of the rule?
> 
> Michelle, are you saying that you also move your left leg when you toss?


 
Sorry Samba, you are not reading it correctly.... The rule says there is a point deduction if the throw is too short or other kinds of handler help.... 

_"Throwing the dumbbell too short and handler (HF) help without changing position leads to point deduction."_

But the handler may not break position after the basic position is taken, (you can also only take a basic position ONCE, no resetting if crooked or what ever) NOT after the throw.

_"If the handler ( HF) leaves his position before the end of the exercise, the exercise will be evaluated as “unsatisfactory” "_


If the handler leaves his position....meaning the basic position taken for the duration of the exercise....

Now do I think this will be killing people in club trials? probably not...but at a Championship level you MUST follow the rules and be the same for everyone....

Frank


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

SchHGSD said:


> This one disturbs me the most, because for the 15 years I have been doing this sport, I always move my right leg back as I throw, and I STILL have issues throwing far enough. In fact, at my first SchH1 (Frank you were there!) the judge commented on how short I threw my dumbbell. He then also commented he gave me a break since I was so short. :blush:
> 
> But habit will be hard to break. On the plus side, I will finally stop stepping on my dog when I move my right leg back!


It disturbe me too. I am left handed and I need that step back not to hit my dog with the dumbell. But what bothers me, more than anything is the idea that something that do not measure the dog temperament or training can have such a big deduction of points... :shrug:


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Frank there is a vicious rumor circulating that automatic outs are not going to be allowed when the new rules changes go into effect. Any truth to this?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

KJenkins said:


> Frank there is a vicious rumor circulating that automatic outs are not going to be allowed when the new rules changes go into effect. Any truth to this?


Not true.....automatic outs are fine as long as they are no too fast.....if the dog outs just before the helper locks up, it will STILL be faulty and receive a point deduction accordingly (same as now)...But if the helper locks up and then after a breif period a out with no command...No problem (same as now).


Here is how the rule is written (not the word "may")

_"After the helper stops the dog has to release after a brief transition period. The handler (HF) may give a command (HZ) to “out” in a reasonable amount of time. "_

Hope this helps

Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Catu said:


> It disturbe me too. I am left handed and I need that step back not to hit my dog with the dumbell. But what bothers me, more than anything is the idea that something that do not measure the dog temperament or training can have such a big deduction of points... :shrug:


If you are throwing the DB underhand and you Just stepped back you would still hit the dog with DB, you would have to step back and to one side...left handed women I have seen throw the small DB overhand over the jumps and throw the SchH3 DB right handed....I was not on the rules commitee but I would think that the rule is the way it is so that people would not use it as help for a high drive dog that wants to go when something is thrown by it's head or breaks his own position...so people don't step back and away from the dog to throw it to help....so it DOES effect training :laugh: 

I understand what you are saying about difficulty in throwing the DB, but where there is a will, there is a way. I have had a 65 year old small women throw the schh3 DB far enough when I am judging and she said she had to prtactice to get it to roll when it landed so she could throw it far enough....she said she practiced just throwing the DB a lot when I asked her.....:laugh:


I'm just trying to answer question about what the new rules are and how they will be judged (from what I have been told)..... Everyone can not like them all they want, but they will not be changed, so my suggestion is try to figure out a way you can throw the DB within the rules.

sorry, hope this helps some


Frank

Frank


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yup, we can grumble all we want, but it will change nothing. :shrug: 

Practicing without the dog is the best way to get skilled in throwing the DB. I have issues with the three not because of its weight, but because of its overall size and how I hold the DB to throw them. I have had to play around a lot to find the best way to throw it far that also doesn't cause pain.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Samba said:


> Michelle, are you saying that you also move your left leg when you toss?


No, that would be a loss of all points under the CURRENT rules. I am right-handed, and move my right foot back to toss the dumbbell. It is habit, more than anything. But, there is usually a tail wrapped around back there from my dog sitting at heel.

What will be hard with this one, is overcoming the habit of what I have done for so long. I can throw the dumbbell far enough without it, I have learned how, but I do not train as easily as my dogs...


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