# Finally a positive training dilemma.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So I have been working with my dogs since I have had them. Sit, down, stay, recall, touch, heel, loose leash walking, leave it. Other basic stuff. However, I want to do more with them. Living where I live I haven't found any clubs or trainers that do sports. Until last week. I just happened to drive by a facility that does SCH and obviously the advanced obedience that goes along with it. I talked to the guy for about 45 minutes. Basically I would pay for one dog then teach the others at home like I am doing now. Until we get to bite work then it's all in house. And it's affordable. The only thing is he uses no treats or toys in his training. Kind of the opposite of how I have been training all this time. Not saying his way is better or worse just don't know about it. 
Today I just happened to drive by another facility and while they don't offer SCH they do offer agility, flyball, and barn hunts. I spoke with the lady there and we have almost identical training philosophies it's also affordable but not sure how to incorporate three dogs into these sports. I suppose I could have each one take a different sport. Or pick one and put them in it. Or find what they're all best at and do that. She invited me to come check out whatever I want to get an idea of them. 
So that is my positive dilemma. Go with SCH that I know Athena and probably Apollo would excel at. Not sure about Rosko. Obedience he would be fine but maybe he's too soft for the bite work. Or pick another sport with the other facility. 
And the different training philosophies. Anyone on here train with no treats or toys. How is it different. Just no treats or toys just an atta boy or what.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

As a multiple dog owner I can say that I have tried multiple different things with different dogs to find out what suits them best. I have been wrong on a couple occasions as to what I thought would be a good fit, so dabbling in all is not a bad idea. I have also found that they might not like or do well in one thing when younger but it changes when they get older. 

Just remember that younger dogs should be careful with any kind of jumping.


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## Themusicmanswife (Jul 16, 2015)

I now see a trainer that has GSD and is very active in the IPO world. Can't say enough how great it is to have someone that understands your dog off the bat. My trainer has seen lots of dogs. She trains all dogs and she's active in the IPO. I am excited to move forward with her. Before this, I trained with markers and treats. I was happy with the trainers who helped me learn marker training and the intial stuff. They were great but they were just pet trainers. I sought out the new trainer as a way to challenge my dog and to see what's next. I can't get as active as I would like in the IPO world because my weekends are full of my children's activities but I'm looking forward to it as a future endeavor. 
I didn't find it was a problem at all not using the clicker and treats. I thought it would have been.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Themusicmanswife said:


> I now see a trainer that has GSD and is very active in the IPO world. Can't say enough how great it is to have someone that understands your dog off the bat. My trainer has seen lots of dogs. She trains all dogs and she's active in the IPO. I am excited to move forward with her. Before this, I trained with markers and treats. I was happy with the trainers who helped me learn marker training and the intial stuff. They were great but they were just pet trainers. I sought out the new trainer as a way to challenge my dog and to see what's next. I can't get as active as I would like in the IPO world because my weekends are full of my children's activities but I'm looking forward to it as a future endeavor.
> I didn't find it was a problem at all not using the clicker and treats. I thought it would have been.


 I don't use clicker just treats, toys or sometimes ill just use a lot of verbal praise and play. They do well with all three. I just don't want to make it not fun for me or them. I work hard for a living. Right now I really enjoy training my dogs. It relaxes me and helps me release the stress of every day life. I just don't wanna make dog training feel like work.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

llombardo said:


> As a multiple dog owner I can say that I have tried multiple different things with different dogs to find out what suits them best. I have been wrong on a couple occasions as to what I thought would be a good fit, so dabbling in all is not a bad idea. I have also found that they might not like or do well in one thing when younger but it changes when they get older.
> 
> Just remember that younger dogs should be careful with any kind of jumping.


I think I'll go Check out the agility, flyball, and barn hunts. If I take a dog or two with me each time maybe they'll give me an indication of how they will do by how much they wanna join the fun.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I can't imagine training with no treats or toys...what are the rewards? Does that include tug toys? I mean I thought you did that to work up to biting on the sleeve but I have never done schutzhund so I wouldn't know.

I train my dogs because it is fun, and I have more fun when they have more fun... I use e collars and prong collars and corrections are fine if they are appropriate and the dog really knew they made a mistake.

All I can say is me personally, I wouldn't train with someone who didn't use food or toys.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> I think I'll go Check out the agility, flyball, and barn hunts. If I take a dog or two with me each time maybe they'll give me an indication of how they will do by how much they wanna join the fun.


At the core you'll be learning obedience training from multiple venues. As an owner/trainer, you'll learn a lot. Sounds fun.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I can't imagine training with no treats or toys...what are the rewards? Does that include tug toys? I mean I thought you did that to work up to biting on the sleeve but I have never done schutzhund so I wouldn't know.
> 
> I train my dogs because it is fun, and I have more fun when they have more fun... I use e collars and prong collars and corrections are fine if they are appropriate and the dog really knew they made a mistake.
> 
> All I can say is me personally, I wouldn't train with someone who didn't use food or toys.


 He did say that eventually toys are used when we would get to bite work. He seemed very qualified. Ex Marine. Where he was first introduced to dog training. I have just never trained that way. Not sure if I want to relearn all that I have learned.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> He did say that eventually toys are used when we would get to bite work. He seemed very qualified. Ex Marine. Where he was first introduced to dog training. I have just never trained that way. Not sure if I want to relearn all that I have learned.


Rewards with praise you think?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Rewards with praise you think?


Idk. Maybe.! I'm still undecided. One minute I'm like agility facility, the next minute I'm like SCH facility. Maybe I should take a couple obedience classes at each place then decide what I want to do long term. The SCH guy has you take a dog psychology course prior to any classes. So that may be interesting anyway.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you don't like his methods, find another trainer. I don't see the dilemma. Find someone who you like and work with them. If you select a trainer, plan to go in 100% or find someone else. If you use the trainer who says not to use them, but sneak in treats or toys, your results won't work the way the trainer expects and you won't be happy.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk. Maybe.! I'm still undecided. One minute I'm like agility facility, the next minute I'm like SCH facility. Maybe I should take a couple obedience classes at each place then decide what I want to do long term. The SCH guy has you take a dog psychology course prior to any classes. So that may be interesting anyway.


I go to an amazing trainer. I take her advice as gold. But, I want to learn as much as possible and ask her questions about other trainers. Its interesting to see different techniques and grow and learn. You have 3 dogs with different personalities and qualities. I think it will make you more rounded. I'd go to both. Just be sure to keep them consistent in your training.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If you don't like his methods, find another trainer. I don't see the dilemma. Find someone who you like and work with them. If you select a trainer, plan to go in 100% or find someone else. If you use the trainer who says not to use them, but sneak in treats or toys, your results won't work the way the trainer expects and you won't be happy.


I guess my dilemma is I don't know if I like his methods cause I'm not sure what his methods are. He seems to get results. I am interested in taking his psychology course and seeing what his methods are. It can't hurt to learn other ways to train. The other trainer I understand her methods cause it's what I already do. I can just go further with her knowledge than with my own. Or at least get there quicker. 
Plus there is the question of do I want to do SCH or explore the other dog sports. Before I really didn't have any options that I knew of.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> I guess my dilemma is I don't know if I like his methods cause I'm not sure what his methods are. He seems to get results. I am interested in taking his psychology course and seeing what his methods are. It can't hurt to learn other ways to train. The other trainer I understand her methods cause it's what I already do. I can just go further with her knowledge than with my own. Or at least get there quicker.
> Plus there is the question of do I want to do SCH or explore the other dog sports. Before I really didn't have any options that I knew of.


Can you observe him working with a dog before you decide?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Can you observe him working with a dog before you decide?


I am gonna call him tomorrow and see. I also think maybe I should observe some actual sports too. I do know that SCH would require a lot more travel compared to other sports I could do more locally.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> I am gonna call him tomorrow and see. I also think maybe I should observe some actual sports too. I do know that SCH would require a lot more travel compared to other sports I could do more locally.


It's a time commitment. Make sure you want to spend your time there before starting.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk. Maybe.! I'm still undecided. One minute I'm like agility facility, the next minute I'm like SCH facility. Maybe I should take a couple obedience classes at each place then decide what I want to do long term.


What sport or activity sounds the most fun to YOU? Whatever you decide to do, you'll be doing it _with_ your dogs so it should be something you both enjoy. I will say, having a dog that took to flyball as if it were designed especially for her, we have both been having a blast. Some dogs can be more challenging to train, but if you have a chance to observe a flyball tournament or even go watch one of their classes I think you'll see how much fun all the dogs are having. I took classes with Halo for about 8-1/2 months, we were invited to join the team teaching the classes, and she raced in her first tournament a week and a half later. That was April 2012, and we're still going strong. 



cdwoodcox said:


> I guess my dilemma is I don't know if I like his methods cause I'm not sure what his methods are.


That alone makes me wary. While results are important it's just as important to me how you go about getting those results, and some places are vague about that. If it were me I'd try to observe this guy training other people's dogs, and maybe a couple different kinds of classes at the agility facility too before making a decision.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I always go and observe before I commit to a new trainer. I need to know I'll be comfortable if the trainer takes my dog to show me something and if I'll be comfortable training the way they want me to. I've never had to pay to observe and I learn a lot about if it is someone I want to work with.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I would add..don't just watch him train, watch him train a dog like yours. If you are bringing him a puppy, watch him train a puppy. If you are bringing him a dog that has never had formal training, try to watch him with a dog like that. Are the dogs happy?

And lastly, if the one trainer trains like you already train, well, sounds like a good fit? I can only offer my experience that I waited a long time to find a trainer who seemed really like what I wanted, what I want to learn, and learning from that person is awesome...I watch this person work with a dog and listen to them talk and its who I want to be if I had that knowledge and experience. 

I think long and hard about who I will turn over my leash to.


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## Themusicmanswife (Jul 16, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> I don't use clicker just treats, toys or sometimes ill just use a lot of verbal praise and play. They do well with all three. I just don't want to make it not fun for me or them. I work hard for a living. Right now I really enjoy training my dogs. It relaxes me and helps me release the stress of every day life. I just don't wanna make dog training feel like work.


Maybe I wasn't clear? Training is fun. It's not a drag. At least not now! Landsharking and leash pulling are not things I miss :wink2:. I always have fun with my dog when we are training. Praise, encouragement, and engagement are what I use mostly. It works. I wasn't so sure myself. I still reward and have fun with balls and tugs when we are not in a more formal training mode. 

I say go with whatever you are going to have the most fun doing. I've got not much figured out and claim to be no expert. Just sharing my experience.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

IPO requires drive in the work. If he doesnt use toys or food for the OB then his dogs are going to look like slugs, and yours will too . You lose a lot of points these days for a stressed looking dog.

IPO and functional obedience are completely different for different purposes. Functional obedience does not require food or toys.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> IPO requires drive in the work. If he doesnt use toys or food for the OB then his dogs are going to look like slugs, and yours will too . You lose a lot of points these days for a stressed looking dog.
> 
> IPO and functional obedience are completely different for different purposes. Functional obedience does not require food or toys.



That sounds contradictory. But don't want to hijack the thread.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> IPO requires drive in the work. If he doesnt use toys or food for the OB then his dogs are going to look like slugs, and yours will too . You lose a lot of points these days for a stressed looking dog.
> 
> IPO and functional obedience are completely different for different purposes. Functional obedience does not require food or toys.


Blitzkrieg are you talking about the difference between sport training and pet training? I can think of a few current popular pet trainers who get super reliable dogs but those dogs are flat for my taste...

Not quite to the extent of some of the robo dogs I have seen as a result of aversive only training, but somewhat in the middle

For me personally there are some circumstances where I guess that sort of pet training is warranted but I don't care for it


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Functional Obedience requires a dog to be compliant and reliable anywhere any time. It does not matter whether the dog is for work or just a pet.
You do not need food or treats to make this just pressure. Excessive drive or hope for reward is counter productive to this. It does not matter if the dog is flashy or if his tail is wagging. What matters is that he does what he is supposed to do when you tell him to do it.

For IPO the dog must be adrenalized in his preformance, fast and precise or you lose points. The goal of IPO OB is 15 minutes of preformance on the field. For that you must have a dog with drive and training that channels that drive into the obedience behaviours. You dont get that with just praise or pressure.

Functional Obedience





IPO Obedience starts at the 2 min mark completely different mindset


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So I decided to go with special ops K9 Academy for all of my obedience, and search and rescue for Athena and myself. I believe his methods will stream line my training to where I want it to be a lot quicker than the way I have been doing it. We (myself, wife, and son) went to his dog psychology course today. Very informative.! I am looking forward to challenging myself and my dogs learning a new method of obedience training. And as I mentioned earlier he can get myself and Athena certified in search and rescue. Something I have been wanting to do for a while now. 
I still plan on using the other place "the dog house" for flyball and barn hunts with Rosko and Apollo.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To the best of your ability, choose a separate class for each dog. i.e. On Monday do Schutzhund with Athena, on Tuesday do Agility with Rosco, and on Wednesday do obedience with Apollo. Or whatever. Determine by temperament and by athleticism which would do best in what. And, I would go with two classes with the person who has your philosophy, and one class with the other dude, in case that isn't what you want. 

Ok, I hate carrying around treats. Or toys. I usually don't. And yes praise does work on my dogs. Usually the trainer has treats if we do something weird, like leaving the marshmallows and getting a better treat from me. Good. Did that today. But mostly, I praise the dog. I am not against corrections. But I do not use correction collars, and prefer to keep the succeeding the majority of everything. So training is fun.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I am not real sure about Apollo. Right now he doesn't appear to be what I would call agile. Where Rosko is lean, fast, and attentive, Athena is fast kind of snippy or dare I say aggressive though not mean. Apollo is more like a bull in a China shop right now. He is fast but not agile "yet". His attitude seems to be just Buffalo over things in his way. I'll just keep him focused on obedience until I see what best suits him. 
As far as the trainer. While he does use mild corrections to let the dog know he has made the wrong choice. his technique seems to be to give a command and set the dog up to choose the right action . Through repetition then the dog becomes programmed to instinctually listen without even processing any other options. Where as with my current treat training I can see a definite difference in how well the dog listens depending on treats used, can they see the treats etc... While the goal has always been to wean the dog off treats when training this looks to be a way to get there a little quicker and help solidify and keep attention during phases of chaos. I figure I'll give his method a chance without the confusion of using treats or other trainers methods until I see how me and the dogs do. He doesn't see an issue with my past training he feels the dogs will adapt to the new method quite easily.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Ok, I hate carrying around treats. Or toys. I usually don't. And yes praise does work on my dogs. Usually the trainer has treats if we do something weird, like leaving the marshmallows and getting a better treat from me. Good. Did that today. But mostly, I praise the dog. I am not against corrections. But I do not use correction collars, and prefer to keep the succeeding the majority of everything. So training is fun.


Kind of a tangent on the thread at this point, but I carry treats in class or during training sessions. I'm about to start carrying a toy also, to liven things up for her (she hates polishing - hates hates hates - so I'm hoping that makes it a little more fun). She will work in class without treats, but her level of indignation the time I forgot the treat pouch was pretty funny. She cooperated, but I got a lot of stinkeye.

I always pair the treat with warm verbal praise, because out in the world I may or may not be carrying treats but I always have my voice with me. Or an approving pat to the chest; that seems to be very valuable to her even though I'm quite liberal with them as a way of showing affection just because. She will obey whatever without treats if we're just out on a walk or doing something; she does seem to associate the more tangible rewards with working sessions.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Off with Athena to our first session with the new trainer. We'll see how she does with no treats.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So the training wasn't as different as I thought it would be. It was basically what Rosko and I have done with an e-collar only today we used a pinch collar and my 6' leash. We basically worked on heel with automatic sits and downs with a different cue. He had me put her in a stay, recall, etc.. 
She done fine with those. So we don't need to work on anything else but what we done tonight. 
Athena done exactly as I expected. She learns commands easily but doesn't seem to wanna do them on anyone's schedule but her own. It took about 15 minutes before the trainer confirmed what I thought. She is stubborn. He said I need to work on keeping my voice more consistent. Said I sound pissed when giving commands. Even and consistent voice tones will keep the dogs happier. Came home and put the collar on Apollo and he done excellent. He isn't nearly as stubborn as Athena. He told me to take as long as I need at home to solidify what we done tonight and on our next session we can get to work on search and rescue stuff.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Oh and I need to work on my happy voice when the dogs comply. I thought that was OK but hey I can talk like I'm on helium


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

LOL, I know what you mean. Consistency with the command voice and the happy voice makes it clearer to the dog.


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