# Our GSD bit my DH in the face, lacerations, please help us find answers



## ThorDog

Hello everyone!

I saw what Mustlovedogs is going through and I joined this forum to post and maybe get answers to what happened to us.
To give you some background, I have had 5 GSDs in my lifetime. My DH has also had GSDs. We are no strangers to the breed and the fact that they need a calm and assertive leader.

We got K as a puppy from a very reputable breeder. At the time I had a senior 14 yo GSD who passed away shortly after we got K. We also have a female GSD who is 5yo. We were very consciencious of having K be raised by us and not by our other GSD as the breeder stated. K was very attached to both my DH and I from the start. The breeder and vet also said not to neuter K until he was over 2 yo if ever.

From 8 weeks old we worked with K on puppy classes and obedience, crating him at night and when we were not home. He is a beautiful, smart and high drive GSD. We took him to a dog park that never had any other dogs and we exercised him almost daily (running after the ball would tire him more than my DH or I could run!). He showed agression to strangers and other dogs from 8weeks old. Never showed agression with us. We would play with him but he was not allowed to "play" bite us. We were on his food, touching it and taking it away and giving it back with praise, we would also have him do commands bfore feeding him. He could get on the bed with us when invited for about 10 min every night then crate.

When he was 6 months old I had a baby boy. While the baby is never alone with the dogs, we were very careful with every interaction. K and our DS became best buds. Our son loves K and K loves him. Our DS dropped food for him. We always ate first, etc... K knew the difference between his toys and baby toys and would let go of baby toys. He never ever growled at us for taking any food or toy or bone from him since we got him so used to it since young. He loved snuggling next to us on the couch and would always turn over on his belly for us and for our son to scratch.

I thought I was living a dream, until last month. I had two wonderful GSDs, a gorgeous 16 month old baby who loved and cared for the dogs, a wonderful DH who was as crazy about dogs as I am.

Then our world fell apart. I was home with DH (our son was at a play date) and I heard this awful scream. My Dh called for help and I found him in the bathroom. His injuries are as follows: imagine you took a pair of scissors and cut your upper lip up to your nose, then get those scissors and jamm them in your nose as to puncture through your nose all the way in your sinus. then get the scissors and make a big hole on the bridge of your nose so the cartilage that separates your two nostrils has a big hole. K latched onto my Husband's face and did not let go, he kept pushing him and finally my husband was abel to use his hand to pry open K's mouth to let go of his face. He also suffered severe lacerations of his thumb trying to open K's mouth. We ran to the ER, where he had to have a plastic surgeon reconstruct his lip and nose. The pastic surgeon said my DH was within a 1/4" of losing his whole upper lip and tip of nose right off his face!

This is how my Dh described this. He gave K food in the usual place, the way he always does. He said K looked at him funny and did not goble the food up like he always does. Then DH put his hand pointing to the bowl and said K your food. Without any warning or any growls, k lunged and held on to his face.

This has been devastating to us. For about 2 weeks I kept my husband separated from K who wanted to lick him (couldn't risk any infection or damage to the stitches), separated from our son. I played with him and fed him and loved him but in the back of my mind I always had what happened to my DH, not that I feared him, I just felt I could not trust him. 

After a lot of heartbreak, my DH and I decided to call the breeder and see if they would take him back (he is shy of 2 years old). The breeder did take him back and will try and train him for Schutzhund. I have cried every day since this incident. I never thought I would be "one of those people" that decide not to keep a dog. I love him like family but the truth is that with my 16 month old boy, I could not in good conscience keep K after what happened to my husband. If that had happened to our son, he would not have a face right now. I also could not keep K and give him a substandard life always separated from us and always in a crate.

At home we were always bale to intorduce him to strangers and he was fine with guests, even bringing them toys and wanting affection. He never showed agression towards anyone in our family or friends over toys or food or anything. No growls nothing. He never had possession issues even with our other dog over food or toys. I know this has to be about food in some way but I just don't understand how it went from zero agression over food to a full attack on my Dh's face when he was doing what he did for the past 18 months with K. Oh, our other dog was nowhere near the food when this happened.

I know that it is not just his fault and that I am sure that in some way, without knowing it, we probably made some mistakes with him. We were very harshly judged by people over "ever having a german shepherd around your baby." And "putting your son in such danger." I still believe that German Shepherds are a wonderful breed and my DH and I still really love K and I call the kennel every week to hear of news. I miss him dearly every day and our home and hearts are empty without him.

This was not a decision we took lightly, but with my toddler, I just could not keep K in our house after what happened. Again, there was no nip, or warning. No growl, nothing, he just went for my Dh's face and pushed him and held on to it where my DH had to pry his mouth open to let go of his face, cutting his fingers in his mouth. He almost lost part of his face.

We are looking for any advice or insight. I figure as dog lovers you would understand our pain and situation. We would love to have another GSD in addition to our female (not any time soon) and would love to hear of ways to avoid something like this from happening. I saw all the support and encouragement you gave must love dogs and also advice and I was hoping you could help us too. :help: Did we make a mistake by getting a puppy from a kennel with high drive dogs? Did we make a mistake by not neutering him? The breeder told my husband that we should have never had the two dogs together. That a family should have only one shepherd and never two unless they are to be created all the time and only let out one at a time.

to must love dogs - I hope Todd is healing well and my heart goes out to you.

Thank you again to everyone!


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## codmaster

WOW! That is terrible and you and your family have my complete sympathy!

From what you have described I would look for a medical reason from the way the dog acted. It sure doesn't sound like you guys did anything wrong with the dog.

I would have been very tempted to put the dog down (assuming that there was no medical reason that could be found!) - there is no other justifiable reason that I could think of for that outrageous act.

Most understandable that you would not want the dog around your baby (or yourself or DH for that matter) any more.


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## JKlatsky

I'm so sorry for you and your family. 

It's hard to say what happened without having been there or known the dog. To me, it just sounds like straight dominance. The age seems about right for that to be kicking in. Right before a dog does something there's a look, and the mouth closes. Who knows. Maybe your husband was leaning in a way the dog found challenging, or he looked him in the face. There's really no telling, but it happened. 

It's simple truth that some dogs are just not right for families and need very strict structure in their lives that average family life does not provide. Do not feel guilty. 

That said. I do not think that getting a working line dog was a mistake. I have 4 pretty high drive dogs in my house and not one has ever challenged me. The are all social and eager to please. I've been grabbed out of enthusiasm or misplaced drive...but never from aggression. Do not tie in drive with aggression or dominance, because they do not go hand in hand. I think most people will tell you that what they look for in a Patrol dog vs a High Level Sport Dog vs a Family companion all have different criteria. It can be hard to judge when they are 8 weeks old. The dog you thought would be a great family pet might grow up differently. At best breeder's make educated guesses which can only be confirmed with time. 

All my dogs are intact. They are not all out in the house together...mostly because I like my furniture, but they go out in compatible pairs in the yard without incident. So I think that yes. You can have a pair of GSDs that get along. Although I'm not sure what that has to do with your husband getting bit. 

Anyway. I'm sorry that that was your experience. But like all experiences, we learn something.


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## Jax08

I'm sorry you are going through this. From what I've read and what little I know...I don't see anything that you did wrong.

1) There are many, many homes with more than one household. There is a picture on this forum right now with 8 GSDs sitting patiently waiting for a treat.

2) It is NOT normal for a puppy to show aggression. It is NOT normal for a dog to lunge at it's owner, the person that has been feeding him since he was 8 weeks old, and not let go. There needs to be some serious medical testing done on this dog. If he's cleared on those then the breeder needs to look at the dogs that are being bred. ARe they stable temperments? High Drive does not equal high aggression.

3) If a dog had bitten someone in my family as severely as it bit your husband, under the conditions you stated, then I probably would have had him euthanized.

I say you did way more that alot of people would have and have nothing to feel bad about. :hugs:


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## Doubleminttwin

your poor husbands face! I will be interested in reading all the respones. Sorry your family went through this!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Wow, what a horrible story!  I hope your hubby is okay. I don't really see any big mistakes here. I don't take food away from my dogs, but I do a lot of hand feeding with them as puppies and put yummy things in the bowl while they're eating so they associate my presence at mealtimes with good things happening and don't feel the need to resource guard. I also have them sit or down with the bowl on the floor before releasing them to eat, and it sounds like you did something similar. I play trading games with toys and bones so they learn to give things up on cue and get good things in return, again, to avoid guarding behavior. I teach them not to grab toys out of my hand, they have to wait for me to release them to take it, and they sit or down with eye contact before we release them or we don't throw a ball or frisbee for them to chase. You may be doing these things as well. 

It does sound like he may not have been socialized enough - hard to say for sure, but you mentioned "aggression" towards other dogs and people starting at 8 weeks old. An 8 week old puppy is too young to be truly aggressive, he may have been reacting defensively out of fear. For a young puppy everything is new and potentially scary, so exposing him to a lot of new places/people/things under positive circumstances is essential. That doesn't explain why he bit your husband who he'd been fine with all this time while he was doing something he'd been doing ever since you got Thor. Maybe other people can see something here that I'm not getting and have some ideas about what led up to the bite. It would have been less surprising to me if it had been a stranger and not your husband.



> Did we make a mistake by getting a puppy from a kennel with high drive dogs? Did we make a mistake by not neutering him? The breeder told my husband that we should have never had the two dogs together. That a family should have only one shepherd and never two unless they are to be created all the time and only let out one at a time.


Many people have high drive working line dogs that compete in Schutzhund living in their home, even families with young children, so that's not necessarily a big deal in general, although this particular dog may not have been a good fit for you. I don't agree with not neutering ever, but many people suggest waiting until the dog is mature rather than doing it as young as vets will recommend, and I know that some breeders prefer that you not neuter unless there's a good reason. I had Keefer neutered at 15 months old. 

I do not agree at all with what your breeder said about always keeping your dogs separate. Many people separate their dogs when they're not home, but they're together when people are home and can supervise. I've had GSDs since 1986, but up until 4 years ago, always one at a time. Since then, I've had two, and not only are they both in the house with us when we're here, they are together in a chain link enclosure in our garage with a dog door to an outside run when we're gone. I've never had a problem with mine - I expect them to get along, I work on training them to get along and play nice from the very beginning (mine even eat side by side, which is another thing that a lot of people won't do), but I totally understand that not all dogs are able to peacefully coexist like that or that other owners would rather be safe than sorry and not risk trying it. Still, not EVER letting them loose together in your home seems very extreme to me, and not a situation I'd ever want. If I had a dog that didn't get along well with other dogs, I would simply not add another dog to my household - I have NO interest in playing "musical crates"!


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## georgiapeach717

I have zero advise. But I have tons of love and support. I am so so sorry this happened to your little family and I hope in time all your wounds heal, both physical and emotional. ((hugs))


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## TitonsDad

I'm curious to know the thyroid levels of this pup...


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## Jax08

If the breeder is saying to always keep the dogs seperated, doesn't that give some indication that he/she is seeing aggression in the dogs that are being bred?

I don't want to turn this into a bash that breeder thread...just curious...common sense tells me if the breeder believes that then there must be a reason and that reason is the dogs at the breeders have displayed aggression.


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## FuryanGoddess

Yikes and hugs. I know I would not be able to keep a dog after that. My hubs would never want the dog around him again or the children. 

Very scary. I hope your hubs is ok. Is the breeder going to express to anyone that this dog has bitten in the past. Something just doesn't sound right... was there a female dog in heat around somewhere, perhaps?


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## TxRider

I don't believe keeping two dogs separated all the time is needed either. Though two dogs is a lot more of challenge to deal with and raise well than one, and the relationship is different with two dogs than it is with one.

With these recent posts I'm reminded of my employers GSD that bit me. I had known the dog since it was a pup, since the day my employer brought him home from a breeder, and spent at least some time with it daily. Lots of fetch, and interaction.

One day I was walking up to the building and he was off in the yard chewing a bone. I passed by him and as I got about 50ft away and turned to go into the building he charged me, launched at me and bit, hard.

Fortunately it was winter, and I was wearing a lot of layers with a thick heavy leather coat on, as good as a bite sleeve, so as he lunged up I blocked by giving him my arm. I'm a big guy so he didn't knock me down but I was pretty shocked he would do that just out of the blue for no apparent reason. If it had been a bare arm I would have been hurt, he bit with a full mouth and hard as he could.

I don't remember exactly if I smacked him or not. I do remember he went back over to what he was doing and never did it again. He did however bite other people and was eventually put down for it. He was intact and about 2-3 years old.

I'm pretty good at reading dogs, and I have never been able to understand why he did that, and have never seen another dog act that way toward me, even working for years in a high risk job as far as dogs go, going to many people's homes daily and often dealing with their dogs with nobody home.

I'm wondering if he had some kind of medical issue, but I'll never know.


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## ThorDog

First, I want to thank you so much for the simpathy. My Dh is slowly recovering, in a lot of pain. No infections thanks to massive antibiotics but it has been emotional. He will not be able to eat solids for about 6 weeks.

Thanks for the explanation of high drive vs agression. I didn't think they went hand in hand but reading your accounts makes me feel better. I think the breeder is concerned about pack behavior and family. Somehow she doesn't think you can have a harmonious relationship with two dogs in your family. I thought that was odd. She even said she would give us another puppy (not that it would substitute K) but only after our female shepherd passes away. So I was wondering why she would be so adamant about this? Is there a benefit to a family with young children to only having one GSD?

Putting him down was the other option because we were not going to give him to a rescue or shelter considering what happened. The breeder agreed to take him back and train him. She thinks it was a food dominance issue. I still have trouble simplifying it so much especially since my DH fed him in the same place for 18 months with no so much as a growl. If it had escalated from growling and nipping I could see it. But it went from zero aggression towards my DH who he loved dearly to an attack. The other troubling issue is that he did not let go of his face. The only thing my Dh and I came up with was maybe a surge of testosterone during his age that made him snap. I have no other explanation.

I would also love to hear about your experiences raising GSD with small children.

We are still in shock. Thank you again for all your insight. I really appreciate it!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom

TitonsDad mentioned the thyroid - sometimes sudden behavior changes can be attributed to medical conditions. 



> She thinks it was a food dominance issue. I still have trouble simplifying it so much especially since my DH fed him in the same place for 18 months with no so much as a growl. If it had escalated from growling and nipping I could see it. But it went from zero aggression towards my DH who he loved dearly to an attack. The other troubling issue is that he did not let go of his face.


I agree with you, that does seem very odd. It would probably be worth checking into, but under the circumstances I can see why you'd want him out of your house right away. I can't imagine the stress of living with an unpredictable dog that you can't trust. 

What part of California are you in? I'm also curious who the breeder is, can you send me a PM?


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## FuryanGoddess

I have a 10 year old, a 7 year old and an almost 4 year old. I've had 3 GSD's since my oldest was born. Two shelter dogs, females. In the house at the same time. Best of friends,. See the "Old girls" thread in the pix section if you want to see them. Then we had a 3 1/2 year old beagle and he was unaltered. He and Hubs had issues and he bit him and my youngest. We were minutes away from getting rid of him but the person wouldn't take him because he was unfixed. 

Now we have Zeva and she nips but so far, no aggression of any kind. Well.. she seems to hate cats. 

My kids and friends children used to be able to sit on my females like horses w/ no issues. 

I'm so sorry for you and you hubs had to go through this. I'm glad it wasn't worse or it wasn't your baby!


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## SunCzarina

That's scary, I am so sorry this happened to your husband and your family.

I find it odd as well - the breeder doesn't think 2 dogs can live harmoniously with a family? Makes me question what she knows about her lines that she isn't telling you.

*edit* I have 3 children 6 y/o boy, 5 y/o boy girl twins and 2 working line dogs - we have moments (usually involving the 8 1/2 year old dog!) but I actually think it's better to have 2 dogs when you have kids. The dogs have someone of their own species to mess with.


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## Dainerra

agreed. have 2 kids and 2 GSDs. before that, we had a lab and a GSD.
Now, I know that lots of people have a bit of difficulty with 2 dogs of the same sex, esp if they are unaltered. But that doesn't sound like what your breeder was talking about.

I also wonder why she feels so adamant that 2 dogs are bad?


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## SunCzarina

Maybe pack mentality? I don't know. I do know that my older dog who was here before the children, she's rougher with my kids. When the boys play fight, she'll get in the middle of it. Otto does not, if the boys are screaming and boucning and playing BAM, I find Otto curled up with my daughter coloring or something.


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## JakodaCD OA

how horrible for you all ( 

I also would have gone the medical route first thing(and think the breeder should just to rule that 'in or out') 

I don't agree with their idea of having 'one' dog..The majority of my dogs have been working lines and I have had 4 (3 males and 1 female) at one point, one unneutered, all live together in the house, and have never ever in my 30 years of having gsd's and other breeds had something even close happen to what you are experiencing. 

Right now I have one gsd and 2 aussies, (2 females/one male) and still have no problems..

I have no insite to what could have happened,,tho horrific, the biggest thing that bothers me is he wouldn't let go. 

I hope the breeder can find some insite into what's going on with him( 
Hope you all get thru this difficult time.


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## SuzyE

I am VERY sorry that happened to you and I would not keep the dog.I have never in my life heard that a GSD can't live with another dog. Mine is very aggressive and has lived with four other dogs. I don't know why this happend but I am very sorry and I really hope your husbands face heals ok.


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## georgiapeach717

i also have small kids (ages 5 and almost 3) and Clover and plan on getting a second in about 2 years. (when I have given the proper time training, loving, and raising Clover to be ready to handle another baby). I grew up with a kennel of anywhere from 10-15 rotties and 3-4 GSDs plus 2 litters at a time and only seen one attack my stepdad and only 2 fights ever between the dogs. (an unaltered male rottie grabbed my stepdads arm and caused some damage, and 2 female rotties fought each other til one had to be put down due to her injuries and 2 male rotties got into it once over a female in heat) I dont see why you cant have 2 or 5 dogs at one time as long as you are a responsible owner.


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## ThorDog

Thank you again and it is encouraging to hear success stories with families and GSDs. I am reluctant to name the breeder even in a PM because she has taken him back and as far as her views on rasing GSDs, she has been doing this for many years even if I don't get it when she said we could not have 2 GSDs. I really don't want to put her on the spot and I hope you understand. She is aware of everything that happened. 

Thanks again and please keep those good stories or any insight coming!!!


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## onyx'girl

Welcome to you ThorDog, sorry it is under these circumstances.
There is a member here who's dog suffered from Rage syndrome. 
Could it be your boy has a case of it? Did you ever notice him staring~ unfocused?
If it is a commercial kennel-sometimes those are the ones that don't see how the progeny turns out as they are breeding so many. 
I give the breeder credit for taking him back, but to train him in SchH doesn't make sense as he seems to be unpredictable at this time. 
I hope this doesn't turn you off the breed, and that your DH heals quickly with no complications.


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## Chicagocanine

I hope that the breeder will do a full blood panel and thorough vet exam at the very least, to rule out any medical causes such as thyroid issues, vision or hearing problems, or neurological problems. There are physical reasons which could cause a dog to suddenly react like that as well as the possibility of psychological, behavioral, or genetic causes. Usually one or more of those factors is involved. When a dog attack is said to happen suddenly with no warning it seems to me it is more likely to be a physical or psychological issue, however another cause for a dog to attack without warning is if they were previously punished for exhibiting aggressive behavior such as growling, snarling or other early warning signs. However without knowing in detail the dog's upbringing and previous behavior/training around food or seeing what happened before the bite occured there is no way to know if that contributed to it, or whether there was a genetic or psychological component.

Having been attacked by a dog myself before I know how scary and painful it can be so I wish your husband as quick and pain-free a recovery as possible!


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## onyx'girl

I would hope the breeder does it as well, so she can re-asess the lines she is producing. Hopefully she will and not just send him to the bridge...


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## GSD07

Hopefully she won't breed him either...


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## Josiebear

OMG I'm sorry to hear about your hubby and hope he has a speedy recovery.


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## Debbieg

I am sorry this happened to you. I hope your husband heals quickly It sure sounds to me like you did all the right things with K. 
My 10 month old working line pup shares a home with my sons 10 month Pit bull pup and like Debbie ( Cassidy's Mom) we just expect them to get along. 

My 4 children are grown now but when they were little we always had a GSD and he was great with them. I am also in Calif and would like you to PM me the name of the breeder. I think it is good that she took K back but wonder why she thinks there is a problem with having two dogs.


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## IliamnasQuest

ThorDog, my sympathies go out to your husband and your family. What a devastating thing to go through! 

From what you describe, I don't see anything I would consider that you did wrong. I've worked with hundreds of aggressive dogs over the past 20 years and the way you raised him is fairly close to how I would recommend people raising their dogs to avoid the very problem that you encountered.

A couple of red flags went up when I read your post, and I'm sorry to say but they both involve your breeder. She may breed a lot and may import dogs from Europe, but that doesn't make her a good breeder. A breeder who produces puppies who are shy and aggressive at eight weeks old is doing something wrong, in my estimation. A good breeder not only breeds for a confident personality, but spends those first eight weeks supporting that confident personality by carefully providing the pup with the right socialization and interaction with people, places, noises, etc. Breeders have a HUGE responsibility to provide people with a pup that has already had a good beginning on life. Since a dog's primary personality is formed between the ages of four and 12 weeks old, much of the beginning work is in the hands of the breeder.

The second red flag has already been mentioned by others - the breeder telling you that two GSDs can't be kept together. This is absolute nonsense. If this breeder is producing dogs that can't live together, then this breeder is doing a huge disservice to the breed! Not only that, but to blame this on you for having more than one shepherd is ludicrous. You said the other dog wasn't even around at the time, and the aggression shown was directed 100% at your husband and not the other dog. But even if the other dog HAD been a part of this, a good shepherd that is properly handled would be part of a family group without aggression problems.

Like many of those on this forum, I've had multiple GSDs for many years. Currently I'm down to one GSD, but have had 2-3 since the mid 90's (until I lost my Trick last October). Adding to that, I've had Chows too! At one time I had three GSDs and two Chows, all living together in harmony. There's no logic in believing that you can't have more than one GSD at a time, unless the dogs are bred to be that irrational.

It really concerns me that your dog was so obviously vicious about this. The attack you described was well beyond a typical warning - it was an out-and-out attack that meant to harm or perhaps even kill. There are some medical reasons why this could have happened, especially if it happened out of the blue, and if your breeder is any good she will have a full medical profile done on this dog. Training a dog with an unknown and sudden aggression for a sport like schutzhund makes no sense. This dog CHOSE to go right past your husband's hand and arm and latch onto his face. This is the second GSD that has recently been reported to do something like this and that's really worrisome. The breed is not supposed to be aggressive especially to their owners. And for a dog that you raised from a pup - well, there's either a medical problem or a psychological problem going on with this dog, I'd bet. He may just plain have a screw loose ... but then again, he could be massively hypothyroid too. He could have epilepsy that manifests as aggression. 

I am very glad that you didn't just give this dog to anyone. You did a responsible thing in returning him to his breeder. But now his breeder needs to do the responsible thing and not just sweep this under the rug. She needs to do the proper testing and find out WHY this happened - and not blame it on you because you had a second GSD. You're defending her but I don't think you should, especially if she's not doing the right thing at this point. And I would NOT get another puppy from her.

(By the way - I am NOT anti-breeder. I LOVE good breeders. But I also think that breeding dogs is a huge responsibility and if you're going to do it then you need to do it right .. and face up to the problems that can and will and DO crop up.)

Good luck to your husband. I hope that this doesn't create fear problems for him. He's gone through a horrendous experience and it shouldn't have happened.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Crookedcreekranch

This is horrific and so troubling. Yes I hope the breeder does health testing to determine if that is the problem with this dog. To go from zero to 100 like this is NOT normal.

I have 9 gsd and females living together, unaltered with a male as well. Not that they all love each other but even when the females have gotten into spats, never never have they turned on us. 

This is so upsetting I can only imagine what you are going through. Please do not blame yourself. It sounds as though you have done everything correctly raising this dog. 

I hope your husband and family are able to heal from this experience. It must be so confusing to think your beloved family pet could do this.


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## longhairshepmom

Has that dog gotten a rabies vaccine recently ?

Not asking because of the dog possibly having rabies, but I've heard of some dogs exhibiting some rabies symptoms (one of them rage) after receiving a rabies vaccine. It doesn't mean that they HAVE or PASS ON rabies, only that they can show some symptoms of the disease...

Just wondering.


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## RebelGSD

This is very sad, even tragic, cosidering that this was a pup raised in a good home that was treated well all his life.

I agree with Melanie about the red flags about the breeder. It is definitely not true that German Shepherds should be the only dog in the home and this is the first time I hear this. The second red flag is the puppy being dog- and people aggressive at 8 weeks. Pups from good breeding and good lines should be friendly and outgoing. At 8 weeks this is fear aggression, which should not be there in working lines and dogs with good nerves. This requires a lot of positive socialization and I am not sure how much your pup had of that. Also, what kind of formal obedience training the pup had.
I have the sense that the breeder knows something about the lines that she did not tell you.

I do know that some breeders who breed for law enforcement are proud to breed "tough" dogs (meaning hard, dominant with potential for handler aggression). The trainer I worked with also trains dogs for the police. He took in several dogs that the police could not handle because of handler aggression. Meaning putting the handler into the hospital. I guess it is bad news if a dog with this disposition ends up in a pet home.

Without seeing the dog and his interactions with people it is unclear whether this is dominance that escalated into the bite as the dog matured or fear aggression. Based on the nature of the bite (not releasing), it was not a simple warning bite. I think pet owners not expecting either, can possibly miss subtle clues related to dominance or fear aggression body language. The pup's behavior at 8 weeks suggest more the fear aggression issue. 

Obviously there are many possible health causes for this behavior, from seizure to brain tumor. This definitely needs to be evaluated.

Wishing your husband a speeding recovery. This is definitely not a "normal" situation you are experiencing.


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## jay d

So sad to read about your incident...my thoughts are with you


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## Kayos and Havoc

From your post it sound as if you did a pretty good job with this pup at least in the home with your family. As Debbie said he may have been under socialized but that should not have much effect on his home life with your hubby. 

You know, even if your hubby looked at K wrong when he fed him or leaned in on as someone suggested, this dog has been fed by this man for 2 years and I don't think that body language (if it happened) should have ilicited that kind of a repsonse from a dog that had had a great relationship with your DH in the past.

I am happy the breeder took the dog back but I am not sure he would be suitable for SchH either if he has temperament issues. I hope the breeder does some medical testing on him. 

I hope you DH heals well. That must have been terrifying for you guys. 

)


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## Doggydog

My heart sinks reading your story. I can't imagine the sorrow, disappointment, shock, and horror you must be experiencing. 
I have no insight. It just seems so off the wall. 
If I had to guess, I'd say there's some medical issue with the dog. Brain tumor? Some disease or ailment that is causing pain? It seems like a psychotic snap. 
I am just so terribly sorry for you and your family that you've had this experience. I hope that there is an explanation or diagnosis one day that can explain this incident. 
Hugs.


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## debbiebrown

i was also a bit concerned about the breeder taking the dog back and using the dog for SchH.............thats like pouring gasoline on a bonfire..............

its bad enough to have a dog biting a stranger..........but a dog biting an owner and doing it out of the blue, there is something terribly wrong........My first thought was as said above health issues...........and i am hoping this breeder will check that out first..........anytime there is unpredictable behavior there are so many things that could come into play.........Chemical Imbalances....Thyroid........confusion about certain interactions with food, people etc.............

i don't blame you for making a decision to return the dog, you have a young child as well and you just can't take a chance......i think most of us here as much as we love our GSD's would probably do the same thing if we had one that viciously went after a family member..........it is sad that this happens, and i am really hoping its a medical issue vs some genetic predisposition that has carelessly been overlooked in this line........


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## istie

I cannot see how the breeder can take K back and train him for Sch when he is aggressive.
I am so sorry about what you and your family went through, but i really think K needs to be euthanised. (unless of course medical tests show that there is something medically wrong with him)


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## Dainerra

I agree with everyone on the Schutzhund issue. Every time I read that, it makes me think more of a parent telling a child that Sparky went to live on a big farm in the country. 
I don't think any GOOD Schutzhund trainer would touch a dog with an issue like that with a 10 foot pole. It's something that requires a good and stable temperament. Now, I'm sure that a good trainer would be able to help figure out the issue and how to manage it (if that's even possible) but no WAY can I see them training him for Sch. itself...

added: of course, there are plenty of mis-informed people that think AGGRESSION is the key to Schutzhund. Nothing is farther from the truth. Of course, with the other "advice" from this breeder, I'm not sure that they know that. I mean, look at all the vast examples of people with 2 dogs at once. Often many more than 2 dogs. Now, if you had done differently: 2 pups at once, not making sure the dogs were people oriented, not taking the time for training, letting the dogs be their own "pack" then she would have a point. But a blanket "2 GSDs can't live in the same house" is just ludicrous.


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## onyx'girl

I absolutely agree with Dainerra.
ThorDog,
What are the lines of the dog?


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## Cathygirl

What a terrible thing to have happen. I am so sorry your family is going through this and I hope your husband has a complete recovery from this. 
It sounds like you did everything right, so please don't blame yourself. 

I also wonder about the breeder saying you should only own 1 shepherd. I have 3 and they get along wonderful. They play together outside, and lay together inside. They really love each other, and love being together.


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## Dainerra

I was thinking. You said that this breeder imports a LOT of dogs. and of course IS a breeder, so I assume that they have more than 1 dog, right? How do they handle this? Are all of their dogs kept completely separate at all times? How do they work this? How does each dog get enough exercise, time, and attention?

Too many times people see "imported" dogs as an automatic plus and a better dog. German/Chezck/where ever, all have good lines and breeders and bad. Often, bad breeders will sell their dogs out of the country because they can get more $$ from someone who assumes that "import = good" basically using the US as a dumping ground for their less stellar dogs. Not all by any means, but there are those who will take advantage of the market. Then those people turn around and do the same thing, counting on John Q. Public's perception to sell the dogs for them.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I would not buy from this breeder ever again, even if your hubby has a working relationship with them. 

I think if I wanted another GSD, I would wait til your child is a bit older so you have time for a pup and get a pup from another breeder. Or consider a good rsecue and an older pup or young adult that has been kid tested.

Still can't believe she wants to train him for SchH.


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## doggiedad

sorry this happened to you ThorDog.
your puppy showed aggression at 8 weeks old
i think that's a little young to show aggression.
your breeder said you can't have two Shepherds
at the sametime without being crated. i'm sure
there's a lot of people with 2 dogs together who
aren't crated.

my first thoughts or feelings are questioning
your breeders program.

i hope your husband heals quickly. i know this is a hard time
for you and your family. find a different breeder for your next pup.


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## triordan

maybe i missed this in a previous post but...was the breeder aware that you had another GSD in the house? seems weird that she will give you another pup, but only when your other one passes and now saying that you shouldnt have 2 in the home...
i wish a speedy recovery for you husband both physically and mentally!


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## GSD07

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Still can't believe she wants to train him for SchH.


 Because then she can resell him for $$$, and someone may use him in their breeding program as well. Otherwise what would this 'respected breeder' do with a 2 year old dog? Sorry I'm so cynical but it doesn't seem that the breeder rushed to the vet and behaviourist to evaluate the dog.

I am very sorry that the owner is blamed and feels guilty when in fact they did everything right. Also I feel bad that the name of the breeder is not released even in PMs so other people will go through the same story, and someone else may be harmed down the road, maybe even by this very same dog  So sad...


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## Cassidy's Mom

ThorDog, I'm sending you a PM, please check your notifications.


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## heather122

I'm sorry to hear of your incident. I'd have to give my dog up too and that wouldn't be easy!

You mentioned that K and your son were really close play friends and that your son was away. If it is not typical for him to be gone while you and your husband at home, do you think maybe K thought something happened to his "little human?" 

I'm thinking something medical is wrong too. My mom's GSD/collie mix gets aggressive after a rabies shot too, like others mentioned. Some medications she has been on has made her aggressive to her people as well. She's been the first dog we've had that does that. If it were me, I'd want to protect my family as well, but would be tempted to get the breeder to agree to let you take K to your vet- just to get things checked. I'm forgiving with animals- if the problem is medical and can be treated, I would be willing to treat to keep my dog, if possible. I may just be crazy though!


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## ThorDog

Thank you again for the outpour of simpathy and well wishes.
To answer some questions...
K had not had a recent rabies shot or any other medication (he was current on all vaccines and healthy as far as we know).
Our son goes to daycare so K was used to having just DH and I in the home (with our female).
We do not show agression ourselves in our home. We always tried positive reinforcement with both dogs and our son  we are not a family that yells or displays agression. That was an important question that was asked. We never bullied K but we were firm with him since he was a teenager and a GSD! We never displayed fear either. We tried to be calm and assertive with him. He got along fine with our female except for the occasional spat. K was always very gentle with our son and he loved affection from all of us. He did not have a favorite but he was really attached to DH and I. We tried really hard to make it so that our female never raised him, we did, and it showed, he was way more into his people than being with her. He was protective of us but once we had an aunt staying with us who is afraid of dogs. He was nothing short of a teddy bear to her for 2 weeks. He was never corrected for showing agression to us because he never showed any agression to us. He was not allowed to mouth us in play because of his size we always thought it would not be smart to have him think he can bite while playing and especially with our son. We probably didn't exercise him as much as we should have. Like I said we would take him out to chase the ball to tire him. During the day he stayed in an 6' by 8' kennel but not for more than 3 hours at a time or 6 hours in a day total. He always respected us but not out of fear of us.
Looking back I agree that he probably did not get socialized or handled as much as he should have when he was born in the first few weeks of his life.
I agree that even if my husband (they had a wonderful relationship) looked or acted weird that day, that it did not warrant this vicious attack with no warning.
We thought a lot about putting him down because we would not give him away to anyone after what happened. We told the breeder the truth about what happened and she seemed to think it was a dominance issue and she could correct it. I stressed that he should not go to a family. I agree that "import" does not necessarily mean a stable and perfect dog. I think the comment about breeding more agressive dogs for law enforcement is probably correct here. Not that an agressive dog is a better dog for that. I think a balanced dog will do his job well if not better. 
We did not adopt a dog because I was pregnant and we did not want to risk our son's safety. We thought that by buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and raising him that we were doing the best and safest thing for our family. Her dogs are all crated and spend almost no time together.
I wish I would have thought of getting him tested after the attack. That might have provided us with answers. I just kept looking back and thinking what we did wrong or what red flags were there. I honestly cannot come up with anything that would warrant such vicious attack and with no warning. That is what shocks me the most.

Anyone know of breeders in Central/North California that raise GSDs and socialize them from a young age?

thanks!


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## tintallie

I don't have any experience with these breeders, but these were ones that were recommended at some point for California:

Witmer-Tyson Imports - German Shepherds, Law Enforcement Training, and Equipment
www.ajaysingh.com

Perhaps some of the breeders on the forum can send you some recommendations from the contacts they have.


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## GSD2LADY

Hello THordog, 
I am very sorry to hear what has happened to your family. 
As everyone else has pointed out GSD's can live together happily. I have 3 GSD's and 1 mix-breed. 8 yr old spayed female, 7 yr old neutered male, 1 yr old spayed female mix-breed and 5 month old male (not neutered yet. THe adult dogs are free in the house when I am not home and the puppies are crated. My 7 yr old male is my "foster failure" and he is dog-reactive. I could not bring an adult dog into my home but he is fine with the puppies I have brought in. As a matter of fact he puts up with allot of crap from those puppies. . My 8 yr old female is "the fun police" she decides who can play and when. She even bosses the dog-reactive male around. My point is I do expect good behavior with the other dogs in the home and they know it. I do not have young kids, I have teenagers, but I have different kids in and out of this house all the time. Sometimes they ring the bell and sometimes they just come on in. My dog all need to deal with the kids in and out.... You can have a safe multi-dog household. 

Patty, Mystery, Rocket, Diamond and Mufasa


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## AgileGSD

I am not sure that I would jump to blaming the breeder for this incident, although everyone always seems to want to point fingers and say "BAD BREEDER!". I don't blame the poster for not wanting to share the breeder's info.* Many* working GSD people feel that dogs should be raised as only dogs and not kept in pairs or groups. In fact, many people feel that certain breeds do best raised as only dogs and that owners have a greater success rate if the dogs are not a "pack". You don't have to agree with it but it isn't all that uncommon to hear such advice. Any one breeding dogs can produce dogs with less than ideal health or temperaments - genetics can be rather unpredictable. A good breeder does all that they can to stack the odds in favor of producing helathy, sound dogs but is it really their fault if a dog grows up to not be so?

The dog is a bit young for thyroid issues but it isn't unheard of in dogs his age either. It could certainly have been neurological from the sounds of it. Seizuring (which "rage syndrome" actually is a form of but not an cmmon form of) can cause odd behaviors and certainly can cause aggression. Many dogs I know who seziure also have "weird" temperaments, quite a few can be unpredictable. Seizuring can be caused by disease, brain tumors, toxins or idopathic epilepsy. Not all seizuring is the classic grand mals which are obvious. There are also petite mal seizures, which can be as minor as the dog seeming "out of it" for a moment. 

After a seizure, dogs may experiemce a wide range of post-itical behaviors including blindness, panic, disorientation and sometimes aggression. After the first seizure my GSD had he became aggressive and had I been in a small space with him, he likely would have bitten me. For about an hour he had no recognition of his family or where he was and was actually trying to escape from the house. About a week prior to his first seziure, he aggressively went after a family member when he was startled. He had over time gotten a bit unpredictable with strangers, usually he was fine but sometimes he would out of the blue lunge and bark. I blamed it on poor temperament and managed him very craefully. He never, ever showed aggression to his people though and that incident had me thinking that something was very wrong with him. When he had his first seizure (that I knew of), it actually all kind of made sense. With seizuring regardless of form, the brain is literally misfiring and can explain abnormal fear or aggression in the dog. My dog tried to be a good boy but his brain just didn't function right.


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## GSD07

AgileGSD said:


> In fact, many people feel that certain breeds do best raised as only dogs and that owners have a greater success rate if the dogs are not a "pack".


 Yes, and that's why we are where we are with the GSD temperament. I wish the breeders would aim for a bomb proof dog then for a loaded gun with a hair trigger that needs a special environment for safe functioning.

Yes, genetics can be unpredictable, but training unpredictable dog in protection has pretty predictable results.


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## shilohsmom

I don't have a lot to add but wanted to say how very sorry I am that this has happened. My breeder had no problem with me having two dogs-it was that third one that they really questioned me on. But they just wanted to make sure I could handle three large dogs. 

I guess its easy to say I would never get rid of one of my dogs, but the truth is if I were in your position I'm afraid I'd do the same thing you did. 

My heart goes out to you and your family. And I would try another breeder. I'm glad she's taking this boy back but as others have said it could be he wasn't socialized property in those critical weeks. Who knows. I think I'd just play it safe and try another breeder.


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## debbiebrown

Thats very interesting about the seizures.........Is there anything they can take for meds to help with this to keep a balance?


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## onyx'girl

phenobarbatol is prescribed to control epilepsy, and there has to be dosage tweeks after many tests. 
A friend has a Briard who has seizures and has valium on hand in case he starts clustering. His run in cycles and he isn't aggressive, but at about a yr old had a few instances where he did act out. One time he bit me in the calf while I was walking upstairs to the bedroom area( I clean the house so I am there weekly, I thought his behavior was his way of "protecting" the home). 
He was fine with me after that, but it was a red flag and his seizures started soon after that. 
His seizures are still NOT under control unfortunately, he doesn't have rage syndrome. Like AgileGSD said, the brain just misfires.


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## Lilie

I'm really sorry to hear about your hubby, and I hope he is doing well. I can understand how you feel, as I have an aggressive Golden Retriever - which is far from the norm. He is altered (has been since he was a year old). He has had seizures in the past but not to the point yet where the vet wants him on medication. They are short - and normally he just stands still for a few moments sorta hunched over and then when he is coming out of it, he'll stagger a few steps and then grab his toy and everything is normal. He is eight years old now, and I am just very careful with him around strangers. He is the greatest baby sitter for my GSD puppy. Both have an endless supply of energy and will play with the same toy all day. 

I wanted you to know that I had a GSD when my daughter was born. She was a female that I had for nearly a year before the birth of my daughter. My GSD was a super dog and was very motherly towards my daughter. She was like my nanny. If the baby began to whimper at night, my GSD would come into my bedroom and whine by my face. She loved my daughter and was never far from her side. In fact, when my daughter would cry (in her high chair, or swing etc) my GSD would lick her feet and make her laugh. She was so great. As a young mother I could not have made it with out her help! And I think she knew it! 

RIP Gretchen...you are still in my heart and will always be.


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## GSDElsa

Would you be willing to pay to have the breeder do a medical work up on the dog? Not saying it's something you should do, but I think if I was in the situation I'd be really tempted to just for some personal closure on what might have happened. 

For those that don't understand why people are blaming the breeder...I think it's because there are a couple red flags in what the OP has said. I, for one, almost had my jaw drop on the ground when I saw that the breeder wanted to train him for ScHH. I just don't think it's right to do that with a dog that displayed such unstability. Even if it was a one time incident, I don't personally agree with it. Tracking, OB, agility--ok. Also, even if she is from the "school" that feels like dogs should be kept separated and not socialized all that well to make then "police worthy," then said breeder should not be placing their dogs in a family environment that isn't going to be a die-hard ScHH household.


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## cliffson1

My prayers are with you and your family.


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## Kayos and Havoc

GSD07 said:


> Yes, and that's why we are where we are with the GSD temperament. I wish the breeders would aim for a bomb proof dog then for a loaded gun with a hair trigger that needs a special environment for safe functioning.
> 
> Yes, genetics can be unpredictable, but training unpredictable dog in protection has pretty predictable results.


 
Oksana as always you call it like you see it. Go girl!


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## StarryNite

I am so sorry this happened to your family!  I can't get the visual of how you described what the bite did out of my head! I am sending my healing prayers for your DH and wish him a speedy and painless recovery. 

I would do the same thing in your situation with a small (6 year old) child in my home if that were to happen here, in fact, my hubby wouldn't be nearly as good as yours has been in this situation! 

You sound like you did everything you possibly could and it must have been heartbreaking sending K away even after what happened. It's a lose/lose situation and my heart goes out to you and your DH and K. I do hope the breeder will do tests to see if it is medical. 

Ever since I read your post I think about Lulu and what I would do in your spot, but without a breeder to take her back (was a byb, but a good one, not irresponsible). I can't even imagine what I would do but in reality, I would probably have to put her down and that would break my heart in pieces! 

Bless you and DH and K and I am hoping for a happy end for him.


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## ThorDog

I love hearing the good stories with families. Our female GSD has also been great with our baby. But so was K with our baby, very protective and sweet. The more I read the more I think it was probably a seizure or the sudden rage syndrome brought by a sudden glitch in his system. Right after he bit my husband it was as if nothing had ever happened, no cowarding, no agression, nothing, just normal K wanting to play and happy. For the time I had him here and was the only caretaker, he was acting completely like his normal self, of course I had what happened in the back of my head and did not trust him, but I did not fear him. My heart breaks and as awful as this all was, we still miss that goof very much. I am just trying to make sense of what happened.
I want to correct something. I said the breeder was going to train him for Sch. I mis-spoke. I was ignorant in assuming that's what he would do. He just said they would work with him. I am sorry for that. Again, I do think the breeder is highly regarded and I don't think they would have bred agressive dogs even though they breed high drive dogs. I do think that they should have turned us away when we asked for a low drive family dog. I am very thankful he took K back and will try to work with him. I will ask for a vet checkup. While I might not understand why the breeder does not want us to have more than one dog, I guess he has his reasons for thinking a family could not handle a pack. I also can't speak for how much socialization the pups got when young because I don't know, some I am sure just not sure how much.  His dogs were all very friendly when we were there but we never met the dad, just mom.

One more question. I am still trying to figure out the one dog thing. Do you think he would have said that because when you have two dogs they usually get in little dominance disputes and they usually go for the face or neck? Would it be that one dog could teach the other dog to challenge? Again I am glad to hear of all the good stories. We had our female GSD with my male of 14 yo for 4 years and they were doggy soulmates!!!
I like hearing success stories because as you can imagine I am know wary of having another male and around our little boy. We will probably wait to get another dog at this point we are emotionally spent. But I want to do my research!
Thank you again for all your support!


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## ThorDog

tintallie said:


> I don't have any experience with these breeders, but these were ones that were recommended at some point for California:
> 
> Witmer-Tyson Imports - German Shepherds, Law Enforcement Training, and Equipment
> www.ajaysingh.com
> 
> Perhaps some of the breeders on the forum can send you some recommendations from the contacts they have.


 Thank you so much, I will check them out!


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## Dainerra

all litters will have pups with different drive levels. Now, if you asked for a "low drive" dog and he gave you one that wasn't, then that would be a problem with the breeder. But, any breeder who knows his dogs would be able to fulfill that request. Even if it meant them telling you "this litter has no dog for you"

My dog is a male. He has been excellent with kids from the day he came home. Though his breeder was a kindergarten teacher at a private school so all the pups took turns coming to class with her!

Not all dogs get into little dominance disputes. Some dogs have no desire to be any thing close to dominate. He probably said "one dog" because people often don't do things as you did. They let the dogs bond with each other, not the humans. Or will let the older dog raise the puppy. None of those you did.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I am so sorry this has happened to your family. It has to be every dog owners worst nightmare. In my college days, I spent time at my friend's house - great family, including Grandpa. They had a medium sized mix. Well trained. Very sweet. Just the perfect dog. They had the dog for years. One day, the dog went off and gave Grandpa a severe bite. It was a shock and extremely sad. It turned out that the dog did, indeed, have a brain tumor.

As so many others have stated, I would be very interested in the physical health of your dog. If there was such a sudden change in the behavior of a human being, physical causes would be exhausted. I would be very surprised if there was not something - tumor, seizures, etc. at play. Maybe you will never know the reason this happened. I just think that if you were able to figure out the "why" it would really help you to move forward.

I also had/have a GSD and kids. When I adopted "Annie" from the SPCA, she was 2 years old. My kids were 10, 6, and 2. The dog is now 12 and the kids are 20, 16, and 12. She has been wonderful with my kids and any kids she meets. I probably did everything wrong, when I chose Annie and brought her into our home. There was no evaluation. I had not even met her outside of the kennel. She met my kids, when she walked through the door of my house. The big 2 year old GSD was very careful not to knock over the small two year old child. We could not have asked for a better dog.

I completely understand your fears and would do the same. It will take you time to trust again. Take all the time you need. I will praying for your husband's physical healing, as well as emotional pain all of you are experiencing.

Hugs,
Jan


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## GSD07

Thordog, glad that your breeders are willing to work with your boy, that's a true support for you and involvement in the life of dogs they are producing. I hope they'll figure out what is happening. 

I would suggest to get a well bred DDR dog for your situation. Those dogs generally have very sound temperament, and a lot of effort is needed (from people or other canines) to push them out of balance. Just my opinion.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Thordog many people that do compete with their dogs believe in keeping the dogs separate so the dog bonds with only the humans and all fun is from the human in return for training. I do not know if this breeder endorses that or not. 

I compete with my dogs but certainly not on a national level and it is for fun and titles, not serious as some professionals are. I have never sequestered my dogs from each other, most companion homes have no need to do that unless dogs have issues with other dogs or they want to from time to time to work on better obedience.

I have never had my dogs pack up on a person. I have had canine squabbles but no dog has ever drawn blood. I have never bought in to the keep dogs separate business.


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## ThorDog

GSD07 said:


> Thordog, glad that your breeders are willing to work with your boy, that's a true support for you and involvement in the life of dogs they are producing. I hope they'll figure out what is happening.
> 
> I would suggest to get a well bred DDR dog for your situation. Those dogs generally have very sound temperament, and a lot of effort is needed (from people or other canines) to push them out of balance. Just my opinion.


Hummm, I feel silly but what is DDR? thanks!!!


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## ThorDog

I really appreciate all the insight and all the advice. I am trying to find some closure but it has been hard. My DH is healing very well and no infection which is very lucky considering the extent of his injuries. We will probably be a one dog family while our boy is young and we might have another baby. But I still want to do my research. Like I said before, I thought we were being so careful by going to a reputable breeder and also making sure he knew we wanted a low drive dog and were willing to wait. I of course don't expect the breeder to have a "monks of new skeete" approach where they really want to match personalities. But when we brought K home he was very high drive but we had already fallen in love with him and would not have given him up (I am sure most of you can relate to this!). He was a handful but that alone would never have been a reason to give him up and my DH and I worked with him a lot. The more I read about your opinions, the more it makes me think of a surge of hormones or some kind of imbalance. I will ask the breeder. Even though it was generous of him to offer us another puppy, I don't think we will probably take him on that. We really want a stable male that does not have such a high drive. I am very thankful that he took him back because the other option would be to put him down and I would have a really hard time living with myself even though I don't think anyone would blame us and it would have been the responsible thing to do. It was just really hard because we got so much grief about having had a "German Shepherd around our baby" and that is not what the breed is about. I do not feel like that at the time I was endangering our son, it is a horrible feeling to think that maybe I was, but it had nothing to do with K being a German Shepherd. So thank you for all the support of GSD with your families.

Thank you again for such show of support, I am really glad I joined this board! You guys are wonderful!


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## SunCzarina

ThorDog said:


> Hummm, I feel silly but what is DDR? thanks!!!


East german working lines - when you look at pedigrees, you'll see registration numbers from the 1980s back have the prefix DDR. Breeders of DDR lines always say that's what they are becuase people who know do care. 

One line of DDRs that seem to make great pets is the Grafentals. 

I have a 20 month old Sven Grafental great grandson. Otto is truly unflappable, a great family dog. He has crazy ball drive but he's very workable about it - more than willing to play ball in the den while we're watching tv. He was very easy to train, a wonderfully couragous but easy going dog.

When my 3 kids start romping around loudly, he just watches them while my 8 1/2 y/o west german female tends to get excited and get in the middle of it. Otto isn't much of a barker outside either he watches people go by and will bark if someone comes in my yard, where my female barks at everyone.


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## ThorDog

SunCzarina said:


> I have a 20 month old Sven Grafental great grandson. Otto is truly unflappable, a great family dog. .


Where did you get Otto from? I did a quick google on Grafental but there is no website. Thanks for the explanation and Otto sounds like a wonderful dog, exactly what we would want!


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## SunCzarina

Maybe some of our west coast people can think of who's out there breeding DDR lines?

Otto comes from a breeder in NH but Sven Grafental got around - off the top of my head I can think of about 6 dogs here that are his grands or great grand children.


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## ThorDog

Yes, if anyone has a breeder recommendation for us where we can get a stable, medium drive dog for our family we would be very thankful. we really want to do our homework to find a good fit for our family. We will take our time. Anywhere in California, Oregon or Washington would work.
Thanks!


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## TitonsDad

My Titon is absolutely awesome. I would recommend his breeder to you but she is in Colorado and I'm not sure she will breed Titon's parents again. 

As for Washington, maybe you'll want to look at Kraftwerks?? I'm sure others with experience on the west coast will chime in.


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## SunCzarina

von Baneck ( sp, Tracy's Siren ) is good from what I've heard


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## ThorDog

German Shepherd Working Dogs DDR German Shepherd Breeders DDR German Shepherd Puppies

I actually looked at their website and was very impressed. thanks!


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## AgileGSD

GSD07 said:


> Yes, and that's why we are where we are with the GSD temperament. I wish the breeders would aim for a bomb proof dog then for a loaded gun with a hair trigger that needs a special environment for safe functioning.
> 
> Yes, genetics can be unpredictable, but training unpredictable dog in protection has pretty predictable results.


 I'm not sure that feeling dogs shouldn't be raised in a pack situation means the breeder or trainer is breeding hair trigger dog.  It is more about feeling the dogs will be too "doggy" or too pack oriented if they are raised with other dogs than anything else. Although same sex dog aggression is pretty wide spread in the breed and I suspect that has always been the case.


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## AgileGSD

ThorDog said:


> The more I read about your opinions, the more it makes me think of a surge of hormones or some kind of imbalance.


Hormones do not cause dogs to suddenly bite their owner in the face.


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## kmaher

I may be totally off track, but why did you feed the dog in the bathroom? Did your husband yell something to you, like the baby is crying, have a bad day at work or just a bad day. I only ask this because my dog, that I had prior to my husband, bit him really bad when he went to go into the nursery. He had told me I had to get rid of my dog. Which I refused to do. They never liked each other and everyone worried she would hurt our child but I knew she would not. A few years later I found a angry side to my husband when he drank. My dog was 6 when I meet him and 14 when she passed. (8 when I got divorced) She was my daughters best friend. I always wonder if my dog could feel something was wrong and that is why she bit him. She never harmed my daughter and treated her like she was her own. pup I would like to see if your husband is still around before your dog passes. Do not get me wrong though there are several other reasons that could have set your dog off and like others said medical problems. But why did the dog bite his face and not his hand as he pointed to the dish? Was he bent down and the dog felt threatened over his food? Did you have another dog and that is why you feed him in the bathroom?


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## FuryanGoddess

I believe her hubs fed the dog in the normal spot and gave him a strange look, then followed him in to the bathroom and bit him there.


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## ThorDog

AgileGSD said:


> Hormones do not cause dogs to suddenly bite their owner in the face.


You are correct, I did not make myself clear, I meant what other people have suggested that there is a physiological reason for this having happened.


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## ThorDog

I probably did not make myself clear, we did not feed him in the bathroom. We fed him in the kitchen in the same spot for almost 2 years. My husband did the same thing he always did. Put food for him then have him sit, down, shake and then ok go have your food. When I caught up with my husband, he was in the bathroom bleeding.

No one was having a bad day, the baby was not home and there was no stress or yelling. Everything was about as great as could be, it was a holiday. I completely understand where you are coming from. My older GSD that passed also nipped at my ex husband because he pushed me and was yelling at me (which in my opinion was well deserved, however did not break the skin on his hand, just warned him off). My current husband and I really have an amazing relationship, we argue but never fight or yell. We have a wonderful son and really it couldn't be more perfect. We are very happy. My husband loves K dearly even after what happened. They had a great relationship, my husband always played with him and snuggled up with him and K loved my husband to pieces. That's why this is so hard to understand. When I said I was living the dream, I really was. Great husband, great son and 2 awesome GSDs and a little lovebird! That's why it is so hard to get closure... to this day I cry missing K and so does my hubby even after what happened, call us crazy!



kmaher said:


> I may be totally off track, but why did you feed the dog in the bathroom? Did your husband yell something to you, like the baby is crying, have a bad day at work or just a bad day. I only ask this because my dog, that I had prior to my husband, bit him really bad when he went to go into the nursery. He had told me I had to get rid of my dog. Which I refused to do. They never liked each other and everyone worried she would hurt our child but I knew she would not. A few years later I found a angry side to my husband when he drank. My dog was 6 when I meet him and 14 when she passed. (8 when I got divorced) She was my daughters best friend. I always wonder if my dog could feel something was wrong and that is why she bit him. She never harmed my daughter and treated her like she was her own. pup I would like to see if your husband is still around before your dog passes. Do not get me wrong though there are several other reasons that could have set your dog off and like others said medical problems. But why did the dog bite his face and not his hand as he pointed to the dish? Was he bent down and the dog felt threatened over his food? Did you have another dog and that is why you feed him in the bathroom?


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## ThorDog

FuryanGoddess said:


> I believe her hubs fed the dog in the normal spot and gave him a strange look, then followed him in to the bathroom and bit him there.


Hubby fed him in the kitchen where he said K looked at him weird for about 2 seconds and then when my hubby said ok for him to eat, K jumped and grabbed his face in his mouth and did not let go until my husband pried open his mouth and cutting his fingers in the process. He let out a scream after that "Help now" while still in the kitchen. I was in the bathroom and ran out, when I caught up with my husband he was in another bathroom in the house holding his face and bleeding everywhere, K was in the hallway following me and wanting to play like nothing had happened, K was very calm, not angry, not scared, not overly excited, just plain normal.


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## Jax08

The more I read the more that sounds like a seizure of some kind to me. Have you had any contact with the breeder since it happened? Have they done a medical work up on him yet?


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## Stevenzachsmom

I agree with Michelle about the seizure - especially since your husband said K looked at him weird for a few seconds.

I also want to say that I feel very badly that people are blaming you for having a GSD around your child. This unfortunate incident could have happened with any breed. Many of us have kids and shepherds. GSDs are great dogs. 

Hang in there!
Jan


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## FuryanGoddess

I agree. My almost 4 year old is sitting right in front of Zeva feeding her a treat. He lays w/ his face close to hers. He even stepped on her tail today an purpose. She yelped and walked away. My beagle would have snapped and tried to or would have bit him. 

I hope your hubs and family recover from this soon.


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## RebelGSD

A single seizure is not going to be easy to diagnose without extensive testing. An MRI would be needed to see brain lesions and some people have seizures without visible lesions on the brain. The thyroid test is relatiely simple.


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## LARHAGE

I really sympathize with you, it must have been a nightmare. It sounds like your love for the breed is still intact, that's great. I have 3 West German Showline Shepherds that not only live with 4 small dogs, but 3 cats and 6 horses, they also love children. They are not only beautiful , but stable, there are wonderful dogs in all the different lines. I know of some great California breeders if your interested.


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## Kayos and Havoc

No you are not crazy just trying to understand what happened in the mind of a dog you loved and still love.


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## ThorDog

LARHAGE said:


> I know of some great California breeders if your interested.


Thank you! I would be very interested in your breeder recommendation!


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## ThorDog

I was reading some posts and found interesting that some people say if you correct a dog that growls over food that you will teach him to bite and not growl. Again, K never growled at us for any reason. We hand fed him, our baby hand fed him. Never any aggression.
We tried contacting the breeder and he seems to think Hub should have not been around him and the food after putting the food down. He thinks it was a simple dominance issue and not a seizure. Even though we explained extensively how we raised K (separated from our other dog when we were not home, focused on bonding with humans, etc...) he seems to want to think that we let our female raise him and that's it. K was so focused on us he would be around us and if our female was somewhere else, he would not follow her, but us. 

Sorry if I sound like a broken record. I really feel we did our best to raise him right and we are still grieving in a strange way, because he has not passed away, but we can't have him back. I lost my 14 1/2 yo Black GSD last year who was my "doggie" soulmate, so it has been a tough year.

Again, thank you so much for all the support. I hope that through research, our next GSD will come form a breeder who looks to match personalities as best as they can and that breed stable dogs with early socialization. But we need to heal first.


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## Jax08

That is true that if you 'correct' for growling that it can ramp up to the next step. For example, Jax does resource guarding.

1) She jumped off the ottoman to grab the bone before Sierra could get it. Even though she had one. I said "No" and took the bone.
2) Next time she jumped off theh ottoman, growled and grabbed the bone. Once again, I said "No" and took the bone.
3) The last time she jumped off the ottoman and attacked.

At each step she did not get what she wanted - the bone - so she ramped up the aggressiveness to get what she wanted. I actually taught her to do that by my actions.


However, I do not think your situation was the same. And I also think that you will never find out what actually happened becuase the breeder seems to be blaming you. It's time to walk away, knowing you did nothing wrong, and move on to a breeder who will find you an appropriate puppy, work with you on all levels even after you have your puppy and guarantee the health of that puppy. Do alot of research and ask for opinions on here from people that have experience (which you are).

I"m truly sorry this has happened to you and your family. :hugs:


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## Kayla's Dad

First off let me tell you how sorry I am that you are going through this. I have followed this thread though I haven't poste3d before but with your last comments from your breeder ....

With that last post from Michelle



Jax08 said:


> ......
> 
> However, I do not think your situation was the same. And I also think that you will never find out what actually happened becuase the breeder seems to be blaming you. It's time to walk away, knowing you did nothing wrong, and move on to a breeder who will find you an appropriate puppy, work with you on all levels even after you have your puppy and guarantee the health of that puppy. Do alot of research and ask for opinions on here from people that have experience (which you are).
> 
> I"m truly sorry this has happened to you and your family. :hugs:


I echo what Michelly said above. I don't know if it's denial or what but I think this dog's breeder is trying to find an answer that doesn't put cause and effect upon the dog/her lines. She needs to accept what happened and look into possible medical reasons behind this sudden change and attack. Hopefully in doing so, you all kind find some answers that will ease the pain a bit. 

No matter the relationships with the breeder, you need to move away from them and continue to do what you are doing-continue to research, looking at other breeders, asking questions here, etc. Keep it cordial and continue to maintain the relationship, but if the breeder is not looking popssible medical causes at this point, then their opinion/suggestions need to be taken with a small grain of salt (Trying to keep it polite here)

Hoping for the best from this...


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## Cassidy's Mom

LARHAGE said:


> I know of some great California breeders if your interested.


Feel free to post them publicly. Negative breeder comments must be made privately, but recommendations are fine to post here.


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## Cassidy's Mom

ThorDog said:


> We tried contacting the breeder and he seems to think Hub should have not been around him and the food after putting the food down.


I don't get that at all. :thinking: I'm around my dogs and their food all the time, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that, especially with a dog you've raised from a puppy. The suddenness and violence of the attack, and the fact that he was completely normal afterwards as if he was unaware of what he'd just done really seems to suggest a medical cause. Dogs don't go from perfectly fine to snapping like that in situations they've been in all their lives with people they've known and loved all their lives. It just doesn't make sense.


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## codmaster

Jax08 said:


> That is true that if you 'correct' for growling that it can ramp up to the next step. For example, Jax does resource guarding.
> 
> 1) She jumped off the ottoman to grab the bone before Sierra could get it. Even though she had one. I said "No" and took the bone.
> 2) Next time she jumped off theh ottoman, growled and grabbed the bone. Once again, I said "No" and took the bone.
> 3) The last time she jumped off the ottoman and attacked.
> I actually taught her to do that by my actions.
> :hugs:


Who did she attack - you or Sierra? 

Perhaps she ramped up because the correction(s) was not a motivating level correction?


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## codmaster

It sure doesn't sound like you did anything wrong! Don't blame yourself!


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## Jax08

codmaster said:


> Who did she attack - you or Sierra?
> 
> Perhaps she ramped up because the correction(s) was not a motivating level correction?


She attacked Sierra...not me. and huh? Should I have beaten her? I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

This isn't about my dog...it's about the OP.


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## GSD07

ThorDog said:


> German Shepherd Working Dogs DDR German Shepherd Breeders DDR German Shepherd Puppies
> 
> I actually looked at their website and was very impressed. thanks!


Jenn did a wonderful job answering your question about DDR lines so I won't repeat. My 2 y.o. pup is from the above kennel and I am absolutely thrilled with him, he's everything I wanted, and then 100 times more. He is not a high prey and high energy dog, he's very family oriented, biddable and affectionate, he's my friend, companion and my heart dog.

The breeder does a very good job matching pups and families (as far as I know). I'm kinda careful to recommend any particular breeder anymore because what is good for me may be not such a good thing for someone else, but in this particular case I think Julie would be a good choice (she may even repeat the breeding of my dog's parents next season because the pups produced are so wonderful). 

Do not blame yourself, you did everything you could and you did everything right.


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## ThorDog

Jax08 said:


> That is true that if you 'correct' for growling that it can ramp up to the next step. For example, Jax does resource guarding.
> 
> 1) She jumped off the ottoman to grab the bone before Sierra could get it. Even though she had one. I said "No" and took the bone.
> 2) Next time she jumped off theh ottoman, growled and grabbed the bone. Once again, I said "No" and took the bone.
> 3) The last time she jumped off the ottoman and attacked.
> 
> 
> I"m truly sorry this has happened to you and your family. :hugs:


Thank you Michelle! I need to move on and we will find a good match for us one day. What would be the appropriate response to her behavior in your opinion then in order to have her not escalate for the the bone? I would have reacted the same way as you so I am looking to learn more!
Thanks again!!!


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## codmaster

Jax08 said:


> She attacked Sierra...not me. and huh? Should I have beaten her? I think you missed the point of what I was saying.
> 
> This isn't about my dog...it's about the OP.


Jax08 - that is very true. 

"Beaten" her - goodness no, I don't think I mentioned beating the dog and if you had that impression, then I apologize for being confusing. All I was referring to was that your verbal "No" command must not have been understood by the dog and she didn't understand what that meant.

I thought you were using your experience with your dog as an example of how to correct a dog.

i just wanted to point out that i would never allow my dog to growl at me - that will certainly lead to more problems in the future. if you back off when they growl, you are teaching the dog that if they don't want to do something you tell them, all they have to do is growl and they get their way.

If that is ok with the owner, then by all means it will be fine.

I once knew a couple next door to us whose mini Dach used to lie in the bedroom doorway and not let the wife back into the room. It would growl and even bite if she tried to step over or make the dog move. Once in a while if the dog was hungry they could lure the dog out of the doorway with a tasty treat. But if he wasn't hungry they used to have to wait for the dog to move.

I don't believe in my dog ruling the roost and would never put up with that. (and I have never been bitten by my own dog either)


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## ThorDog

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't get that at all. :thinking: I'm around my dogs and their food all the time, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that, especially with a dog you've raised from a puppy. The suddenness and violence of the attack, and the fact that he was completely normal afterwards as if he was unaware of what he'd just done really seems to suggest a medical cause. Dogs don't go from perfectly fine to snapping like that in situations they've been in all their lives with people they've known and loved all their lives. It just doesn't make sense.


I agree with you, I would never want to have a dog that can't be approached when eating because of our family situation. We have a toddler and as much as we provide a safe haven for our dogs to take a break from toddlerhood and eat in peace (or just plain rest), when the day comes that our boy approaches one of our dogs while eating, he should be safe. That's why food agression was so important for us and why we focused on hand feeding him, etc. The more I read and research here the more I see that I feel we were not a good match with the breeder, not to say he doesn't have very satisfied dog owners and has bred great dogs.

I will continue doing research, this board is so amazing and full of wonderful insight. Not to mention the members rock!!! There is so much experience and willingness to share it. I am so glad I joined! :wub:

codmaster - what would be your course of action with the growling or possessivenes? thanks!


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## Kaity

" I never thought I would be "one of those people" that decide not to keep a dog. "

I didn't read your entire post, but I think you gave the dog back to the breeder? I personally think you did the right thing, rather than putting the dog down or possibly having it attack again. You kind of gave the dog a 2nd chance, lets hope he/she runs with it!


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## Jax08

codmaster said:


> Jax08 - that is very true.
> 
> "Beaten" her - goodness no, I don't think I mentioned beating the dog and if you had that impression, then I apologize for being confusing. All I was referring to was that your verbal "No" command must not have been understood by the dog and she didn't understand what that meant.
> 
> I thought you were using your experience with your dog as an example of how to correct a dog.
> 
> i just wanted to point out that i would never allow my dog to growl at me - that will certainly lead to more problems in the future. if you back off when they growl, you are teaching the dog that if they don't want to do something you tell them, all they have to do is growl and they get their way.
> 
> If that is ok with the owner, then by all means it will be fine.
> 
> I don't believe in my dog ruling the roost and would never put up with that. (and I have never been bitten by my own dog either)


Jax has never, ever been aggressive to us in any way. Please reread my post again. It clearly states that she jumped off the ottoman to get the bone before Sierra could get it. It was about Jax resource guarding a bone from another dog. I really don't have any idea what you are talking about, how I gave the impression that my dog was aggressive towards me or how it's relative to the OP.


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## Jax08

ThorDog said:


> Thank you Michelle! I need to move on and we will find a good match for us one day. What would be the appropriate response to her behavior in your opinion then in order to have her not escalate for the the bone? I would have reacted the same way as you so I am looking to learn more!
> Thanks again!!!


 
"Lauri & the Gang" gave me the advice of making Sierra approach the bone /toy look like a good thing. She advised that when Sierra approached I give Jax chicken. Then she associates Sierra approaching the bone/toy with getting treats. 

My problem is that her guarding seems sporadic and I need to figure out her triggers. One time it's ok for Sierra to have the bone/toy and the next it's not. If I'm fast enough I can tell her to Leave It, treat her and it's good. If I don't expect it then she gets the bone and has learned nothing. Consistency is so important.

But just saying No and removing the object does not work at all. Personally, I would not use any kind of correction collar on her. I've found that using an aggressive correction for an aggressive behavior makes it worse. Jax will fight the collar and it ramps up her energy level. And that's the extent of my knowledge on that.


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## codmaster

Thordog,

Most of our past GSD's have been gotten as puppies and from their very first day, we have always worked with them to not be possevive or defensive of their food or toys or bones. we have usually had a small child with dogs and could not afford to have a dog snapping at our kids or their friends. we have some pictures of our 3 yo son straddling her food dish and feeding our big tough dog one kibble at a time!

We would practice taking the food or toy etc. away and then either giving them another one or simply retuning it to them so they got very used to a person taking something and them getting something either equal or better. Any disagreeable behavior, ie. snapping, growling or pouncing on the item was met with a firm (appropriate to their age) correction and Then giving it back to them after a short interval. We have never had a problem with this approach.

If I acquired an older dog or puppy I would try the same approach as i think it would work just as well, esp. after a little trust is built up - the trade appoach seems to work with most older dogs.


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## London's Mom

Don't feel guilty about not keeping K. You did the right thing for the safety of your family. Wow. K's behavior does not sound normal. I adopted a 3 year old female GSD and I experienced a similar episode. After she settled into our home her true colors came out. She bit my DH, although not as bad as K bit your DH. So sorry to hear about his face. 

She was a VERY unpredictable dog. One minute she was fine, the next minute she would lunge at someone's back. It stressed me out to the max. So I returned her to the Rescue Group that I adopted her from. They did an evaluation and put her down. I cried for weeks. I felt like I let her down. But I know if she would've bit one of my neighbor's kids, I would never forgiven myself. 

GSD are such fine-tuned animals. So smart, loyal and lovable but sometimes you wonder what they are really thinking/feeling.

Again, don't be too hard on yourself for returning K.


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## SandiR2

Michelle,

I think it is because in your original example the last scenario was just simply that Jax attacked. It didn't specify whether or not she attacked you for attempting to correct the resource guarding or whether it was Sierra that was the object of the attack. When I first read it I was also confused as to who was on the receiving end, so I'm pretty sure that's why the other poster responded as such. 




Jax08 said:


> Jax has never, ever been aggressive to us in any way. Please reread my post again. It clearly states that she jumped off the ottoman to get the bone before Sierra could get it. It was about Jax resource guarding a bone from another dog. I really don't have any idea what you are talking about, how I gave the impression that my dog was aggressive towards me or how it's relative to the OP.


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## Riley's Mom

WOW! What a HORRIBLE and shocking experience! Please don't feel bad about returning the dog. If it were me with a baby in the house I would probably do the same thing. Much as I'm "pro-keeping" a dog, under these circumstances I think I only could have kept him if there were only adults living in the house. You didn't just dump him somewhere or take him to the shelter, you took him back to where he came from where he will be cared for. 

I would *definitely* be looking for something medical or "wrong in the head" kind of problem. Whoever mentioned that young pups should not be displaying aggressiveness is right on ... there was something going on way back then is my thought. I think the holding on thing is what shocks me most. That's a lot different from a dog that "hits" and backs off immediately. I think a dog that bites and holds is more dangerous but I could be very wrong as I don't have experience enough to know for sure.

I hope your hubby heals up quickly and with no bad scarring.


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## ThorDog

Kaity said:


> " I never thought I would be "one of those people" that decide not to keep a dog. "
> 
> I didn't read your entire post, but I think you gave the dog back to the breeder? I personally think you did the right thing, rather than putting the dog down or possibly having it attack again. You kind of gave the dog a 2nd chance, lets hope he/she runs with it!


Yes we gave him back to the breeder. My quote was meant more that I really feel bad for all the GSDs that end up in shelters because they were more dog than the owner wanted or because they never researched the breed. I know no one would blame us for giving him up after what happened. I just take getting a puppy very seriously and to me it was a life commitment to train him and keep him. But of course I never expected this to happen! I really hope the breeder works with him but also gets him checked out by a vet.


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## ThorDog

Jax08 and codmaster - thanks for the tips!
kutzro357 and Riley's Mom and London's Mom - thank you for understanding my frame of mind, I do feel very guilty even when my head said it was the right thing to do. The attack was very vicious and unwarranted, too much so to not believe it was a seizure or something to that effect. We wrote the breeder again but have not gotten a response, I am afraid we are not the ones making a decision on getting him checked out by a vet, it is not up to us anymore  I will always miss him for the 99.999% of the time he was a snuggle bug with us and best friend to our son.
We practiced some NILIF. He was allowed on bed and furniture when invited to do so. My husband and I shared training him and he showed no preference between us. He was not a working dog, he had obedience classes and we worked with him at home. He even would do commands by our son who could barely say, sit, down and stay (with hand signals!).

Again, I would be lost without all of your support, thank you!


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## Kayos and Havoc

You KNOW you made the right decision regardless of what the breeder does now. I hope the breeder does right by him but you must put that out of your mind now as it is out of your control. 

Whenever you question yourself ask yourself what if it had been the baby? The outcome for the child would have been unthinkable. )


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## onyx'girl

Tufts(Cummings School)Journal has an article on "dogs gone wild" by Dr. Nicholas Dodman
it talks about electrical storms in the brain, very interesting...
Dogs Gone Wild
I truely believe K experienced a seizure.


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## codmaster

The problem then would be -- "When does it happen again?"


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## Jax08

Very interesting Jane! Thank you for posting that.


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## ThorDog

Wow Jane - that was a great article! It sure would explain the sudden outburst of such violence and then back to our normal cuddle bug! I really hope they test him, I don't want this to happen to someone else or that he ends up PTS


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## Karin

It could easily happen again if nobody looks further into this. If this is a seizure-like condition and phenobarbitol controls it, it should definitely be looked into before it's too late. Our dog was on phenobarbitol for grand mal seizures at age 9 for the rest of her life. The seizures were not aggression-related, but due to a brain tumor (which was removed, but she still had small tremors that were controlled by the pheno). Other than making her gain weight and slowing her down a bit, it didn't seem to cause any problems for her. I sure hope that they don't just let this go because if it happens again, K will surely be put down.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I would be heartbroken too. And I hope your husband will make a full recovery from this.


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## Bridget

I know I am really late on this, but wanted to let you know how sorry I am that your husband and your family are having to go through this. I hope he is feeling better and healing well. I am the other person, mentioned earlier, who was bitten by my own dog, so I am very interested in your situation. Compared to your husband's injuries, mine were hardly even worth talking about, though.

I have a question and you may have answered it earlier and I missed it. What was your other dog doing while your husband was being attacked? Being a GSD, I am surprised he wasn't into it in one way or another.

K is really pretty lucky, as I am also surprised he wasn't seized by animal control and then his welfare would have been out of your hands. I think that is what would have happened here, but perhaps it is a state law that varies. Good luck.


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## JackieM1982

Very sorry to hear about your husband. Sounds to me like the dog had a genetic screw loose.


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## ThorDog

Thank you again for your support. My husband is healing well, he is still in a lot of pian from the hole in his sinus and it burns. his lips are healing well and the new mustache covers it (he hates it!). He still can't eat solids but we are on the mend. Emotionally is has been tough. We can't get our minds off of K and how he is doing and that we miss him. We have tried contacting the breeder again but he hasn't responded, I know someday we have to let go... 

Our other dog, a female, was in another room in the house. The attack was actually quite quiet because he never growled or barked (like all the noise in a dog browl) I nvever even heard a thing until my hub got his face out of his mouth and yelled to me to help. No warning just a full on attack with no letting go of his face as he pushed hub into the side of the oven. So I think our other female, like me, had no idea of what happened until my hub yelled. To be honest with you, we lied in the hospital and siad he got in the middle of a dog fight between our dogs. We were emotionally shattered and did not want someone making a decision for us to PTS. Not the right thing to do, I admit.

I posted on your thread, that my friend had a Chow that started having seizures and not recognizing them and snapping at them, it was a while before they figured out what happened and had to unfortunately PTS since he would try to attack them because he did not know who they were.

I can only assume why K did it. I will never really know since the vet checkup is out of my hands now. He was always so tolerant of everything, clipping nails, checking teeth, even with our toddler he was nothing but sweet. Never ANY agression toward any of us. Again, just heartbreaking but trying to find answers can be madening also.

Thank you again to everyone who sent their good thougths our way and gave us your best guess.


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## Bridget

I think I read somewhere that a silent attack is usually more deadly than a noisy one. I too believe that your dog must have something wrong with him; it is so strange. You had no choice, especially with a small child in the house, to get K out of there.


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## Ocean

ThorDog said:


> We have tried contacting the breeder again


Just a suggestion, you might want to send the article Dogs Gone Wild referenced above to the breeder.


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## ThorDog

I just wanted to give an update. My husband has healed from his injuries and has a noticeable scar on his upper lip but everything healed great with no infections. Of course the emotional scars are a different story.

We have tried contacting the breeder for news of "our" dog but he won't respond. But the shocking development is that we contacted someone who works at the breeder and he said that 4 other dogs were returned to them for what he called a mental condition. And he said that there was nothing we could have done differently that we had no control over what happened. Well while that makes me feel better and less guilty, it also makes me mad that the breeder sold us a dog when he knew there was an issue with this mental condition (he knew very well we had a small child and we asked for a family companion/obedience dog that would live at home with us). Now I know that the breeder can't be responsible for the temperament of each puppy and bad things happen, but it seems like it was an ongoing problem and one poor dog had been there for a while.

Anyway, lesson learned and we would love to get another puppy and we are doing research on kennels that attempt to match the pups as best they can.

Thanks again for all your support!


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## Cassidy's Mom

I'm so glad that your husband is doing better, thanks for the update. What a sad situation for everyone - you and your family, and the dogs too.


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## onyx'girl

I've been hoping for an update as well. Thank you!
Good to hear your husband is healing and you are looking forward to adding another GSD to your family...too bad about the breeder, I wouldn't let that go quietly if I were in your spot. Though I'm not sure how I would proceed to get word out that the temperament from his stock is not sound, and his breeding practices are lacking as far as responsibility to what he has produced.
I hope your hubby continues to heal and all of your scars from this fade...


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## ThorDog

onyx girl - I don't really know how to react sometimes I think I have a moral obligation to the families that will purchase a dog from this breeder, sometimes I think it is not my place since they have produced good dogs. I also feel like I wouldn't want our dog to be punished for our actions since he is now with the breeder. I go back and forth. I am no doubt angry about this whole thing. Especially since I have found out that the dam did not have any other litters except this one and she was older which makes it weird. Plus the breeder always blamed us on our dog's behavior and not the breeding so I really don't think he cares. He offered us another puppty when our female passes but there is no way I would have another dog from this breeder. This could have happened to anyone, but the support we got from him was terrible and obviously he made a financial decision when selling dogs that had a potential to snap and he knew it.

cassidy - thank you!


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## Josiebear

I was just thinking about your last post and was waiting for an update too  glad to hear your husband doing well and pretty bad that 4 other dogs were returned to this breeder, i wonder what she or he? did with the dogs that were returned?.


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## Rusty_212

I'm sorry i haven't read through all the pages, but i'm glad your hubby is doing good. I think that breeder is totally irresponsible and if it were me, i would let anyone and everyone know about them. Bad breeders just tick me off. I wonder, were you recommended to this breeder by someone?


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## Relayer

We had a very similar thing happen to my girlfriend with a rescue dog. Very traumatic!! Unfortunately, that dog had to be put down. The rescue organization agreed as did our vet. All in all a very sad situation. My GF had over 30 stitches in her face and still has terrifying nightmares of the the scene being repeated. I hope your whole family recovers well. So sorry... those things are really hard to deal with.


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## ThorDog

Relayer - was it a GSD? I am so sorry and hope she is doing well.

Rusty - this breeder is highly regarded in the working dog/show dog circles I don't want to say much else since I would be making it too easy to guess and that is not the purpose of this post nor is it allowed on the board. This was not a backyard breeder or a small breeder. We thought we were being responsible because we did not want to adopt a GSD (I know there are wonderful GSDs waiting to be adopted, no doubt, but we would not know of its history or triggers and with a baby we didn't think it was responsible) so we bought a GSD puppy from a highly regarded kennel thinking we were doing everything right. We even asked for a lower drive dog and that we could wait for a match.

Josie - the kennel worker said they do not get put down. We have been trying to find out the status of our dog but we don't get a call or email back


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## Ottomom

I am so sorry your family went through this. I pray your DH does well. 
You may never know what caused it but I hope you find peace with what you had to do.


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## ThorDog

We know it was the right decision but we still miss him. We joke that we wish we could give him a magic pill and bring him back home sane! Wouldn't that be nice? We thought of going to the kennel to take him for walks but it probably would be more detrimental to us and him. Thank you again for all of your support!


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## Amoux

This was a very disturbing and sad story to read. I think you tried to do everything as responsibly as possible to get a great dog with a suitable temperament and yet it still happened. I feel for you and I'm glad your husband has mended from the injuries in a good way.

I think you did the right thing to protect your family. It does seem a bit shady about the dealer getting more dogs back. The breeder would be at fault if they had any idea of a behavioral problem in their dogs and considering how unpredictable the attack was I'd be concerned about the dog being involved in schutzhund. It still means that someone could be at sudden risk if they are relaxed and trusting towards the dog and he just snaps again. With other dogs being returned it only seems right that others should be aware that there is something going on. The breeder may be trying to protect their reputation but what if they breed more dogs like that? Even if others might defend them or not believe it at least it's there for potential owners to consider. I'd want to know if they're testing their dogs and trying to determine the problem for certain rather than just blaming it on the owners. More people may get hurt and more dogs would be left without a home.


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## ThorDog

Amoux - I agree with you, he should be throughly tested and we asked that of the breeder too after the attack I read up on all kinds of possible phisical causes and at the advice of people on this board. The kennel owner just blames us for the attack. He never admitted there was something wrong with our dog. It was someone who works there who said those things about the ohter dogs being returned too. We have been trying to contact him for a couple of months now to get his "assessment" of our dog but he won't return emails or our calls. I don't think he will be used as a Schutzhund dog. I am not sure even if his life is just going to be living in a kennel... we can't get answers. I think that if we had pts I would have a different attitude towards the breeder right now, but I don't want our dog to suffer because of what we did or said. I think that if there is an ongoing problem like we were told it should have been the breeder's responsibility to test and get to the bottom of the problem and not try to sell a litter every couple of months and blame us for what happened. Again there is no doubt that bad things happen to good people and had this been a single incident and the breeder had shown more responsiveness, I would be ok with that. He did take the dog back which I appreciate, but that was it for support. If anything, he made us feel like we were to blame for the whole thing. He offered us another puppy which I would never take. I see people on this board with his dogs and they are happy but I also see people interested in buying dogs from them and I have pmd a couple not saying that this was the breeder but that I had heard of something here and there about them and would not recommend them. Again, they could buy some great dogs from him but it worries me that this will happen to someone else. No one deserves to be savagely attacked by their best friend and to think he could have killed my baby had he been the one attacked.
Sorry for the rant, I still have a lot of strong feelings.

What are some of your opinions on the breeder's reaction and response? Would you guys raise a stink with the breeder? Would you steer people away from him (in a private and responsible way, not by bad mouthing and not on a board or post)? I have also gotten PMs from people who said they heard that this or that breeder had aggressive and out of control dogs that were bought by responsible GSD individuals. And of course this breeder was on their list.


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## Cassidy's Mom

ThorDog said:


> What are some of your opinions on the breeder's reaction and response? Would you guys raise a stink with the breeder? Would you steer people away from him (in a private and responsible way, not by bad mouthing and not on a board or post)? I have also gotten PMs from people who said they heard that this or that breeder had aggressive and out of control dogs that were bought by responsible GSD individuals. And of course this breeder was on their list.


I've already told you what I think.  I would definitely steer people away from them. It's against board rules to do it publicly (which I do agree with), but I would be sending a PM every time I saw them being recommended. I think prospective puppy buyers have a right to know. If you don't care about possible repercussions I'd be putting a link to this thread in the PM so they had all the grisly details about your experience, but I understand that's not something that everyone would be comfortable doing.


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## LaRen616

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I've already told you what I think.  I would definitely steer people away from them. It's against board rules to do it publicly (which I do agree with), but I would be sending a PM every time I saw them being recommended. I think prospective puppy buyers have a right to know. If you don't care about possible repercussions I'd be putting a link to this thread in the PM so they had all the grisly details about your experience, but I understand that's not something that everyone would be comfortable doing.


:thumbup:


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## ThorDog

Thank you Cassidy and LaRen, I think I am morally obligated to steer people away but without doing it publicly which I also agree with board rules. Again if this was once incident I would probably not do so because bad things do happen, but when I hear of 4 other dogs getting returned for "nervous condition" it sure raises red flags! And I also would never do it had he been upfront with us or had our dog tested or had shown more of a responsible attitude towards what happened instead of blaming it only on us. If we hand't talked to the kennel worker, we would still be beating ourselves up, he (the worker) clearly said this was a big problem and there is nothing you guys could have done differently! THis is a hard thing to do because I do have high regards for breeders of GSDs but I guess not all breeders are created equal! Just like us owners are not created equal!

Cassidy - was checking out the do you hug your dog thread and loved the pic of your hubby hugging Keefer!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom

ThorDog said:


> Cassidy - was checking out the do you hug your dog thread and loved the pic of your hubby hugging Keefer!!!


:wub: He is SUCH a love sponge! There is pretty much no amount of physical affection that's enough for Keef.


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