# Handling one growling trigger?



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi, A quick question...

Our rescue "shepsky" will greet approaching strangers with a friendly sniff (although he doesn't really seek them out.)
Visiting kids can pet him and he will lay down on his side and bliss out. Strangers can pet him on head when he is STANDING, and he accepts it.
But he has one specific trigger - which I have now seen 3 times -
standing people who lean over him and pet him on the head when he is laying down.
He growls.

I can not 'work' on this myself at home - I can lean over him, stroke him all over the head, grab him by both ears ... no reaction.
So, thinking how to deal with it?

I can
a) train him in some way (?) OR
b) tell strangers not to lean over him and pet him on the head if he is laying down

<b> seems easy, but what if I am not around, i.e. in kitchen and not watching visitors with dog every minute?
Today I tried telling my daughter's friend this when she first came into the house ...
She got a nervous expression and did not dare to touch the dog during her whole visit. 
( I feel like this is telling people: "Our dog is mean." )

<a> is also tricky because I know that if I scold him for growling, he won't growl. 
But then would he use a silent air-snap as a warning? That is even more frightening for people!

Thank you for any thoughts, 
not sure about best way to handle.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Well, you could tell visitors in the house that he gets scared (because he does, that's why he's growling) when people lean over him and he's on the ground. The second you say "he's scared", people won't think your dog is mean and will likely be sympathetic.

I'd then do some testing. Is he okay if they kneel and pet him on the top of his head? How about if they pet his side? If those fail, then just ask them to let your dog come to them.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My preference would be to honor the dog's feelings and leave it alone. Unless he's doing this with children as well, I have a zero tolerance for a dog growling at children, no matter what they are doing. For that I've always taught the dog to move away. 

But if he's only reacting this way toward adults, it seems reasonable to let him dictate his own comfort zone...most people will get his message quickly.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I think older kids and adults both *should* be taught not to lean over dogs they don't know. In the dog world, it's aggressive posturing. Use it as a teachable moment to explain dog body language -- to understand, not to fear. Even better, teach them to turn sideways at a 90 degree angle to the dog -- a polite, non-threatening gesture in dog language.

It's not just kids who do this looming-over-strange-dogs thing. I have had a known some shelter staff working in kennels who triggered growls doing that, and they had no idea their body language was what was trigger int he scared dog -- the same dog would crawl on its belly to me and roll over because I didn't threaten it by looming over it like they did. 

If you'd like to turn it into teaching moments, I highly recommend ordering a copy of Patricia McConnell's classic book on dog behavior: The Other End of the Leash. It should be on ever dog owner's book shelf! She explains the disconnect between our primate-brain's way of reading body language and the canine brain's, and she tries to help bridge the gap.

I would crate the dog when kids are over, if you can't manage the dog-kid interactions.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kyrielle said:


> ...... just ask them to let your dog come to them.





Magwart said:


> I would crate the dog when kids are over, if you can't manage the dog-kid interactions.


If it were me, I'd do one of the above. Both would eliminate the problem. I also like Magwart's idea of educating people about how their body language affects dogs, and in this case probably frightens him. The book she recommends is excellent, very entertaining and easy to read and understand.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Another suggestion along with the others, make it a "house rule" for kids and adults that your dog is to be left alone when he is lying down. A simple "please do not bother my dog while he is resting." Should do it at least for adults.

I find it very strange that people think it is ok to stare or hover over a dog but if a stranger did that to them they would be very uncomfortable. 

There are a lot of differences between humans and canines but there are also a lot of similarities in body language so when you say this to guests, say it with confidence and a relaxed but straight forward look that offers no room for questions, then offer them a seat. .


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

GSDchoice said:


> Hi, A quick question...
> 
> 
> I can
> ...


This is easy, unless you are going for a therapy dog cert. Your option is B. If he doesn't do this to you, or children, only to strangers...I'd lose exactly zero sleep over it. I wouldn't want strangers to stroke me while reclined and relaxing either!


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

My dog doesn’t like strangers petting her on the head, either. I called her breeder and she said it’s a sign of dominance. The breeder said only me and my immediate family should pet her on the head. 

So far Zelda doesn’t react to people, other than brushing their hands away. But it’s obvious she doesn’t like most people. She ignores people and acts like she would prefer it if they would simply ignore her, too. 

I tell people she’s afraid. It sounds better than “she doesn’t like you.”


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I like to screw with clients sometimes during the go home lectures for the board and train program. Very few people are sensitive to how they approach others, particularly animals, although weirdly enough internally they know not to do what I'm about to describe each other (usually). I'll tell them that they have a highly congnative brain and they have an understanding that I'm a friendly guy and not there to hurt them and they logically "know" this. They're usually seating during the lecture so what I do next has an even more obvious effect. I'll pick one stare directly into their eyes with a flat look on my own face and then I square my shoulders to them and walk directly into their personal space get really close and then look down while standing over the top of them. I stand there for a second and then I say "You feel that?" Everyone feels that. Even when your cognitive brain says no danger your lower order brain that controls fight or flight will scream danger and emotionally that is what you will feel. You WILL feel alarmed. Even if you do it to loved ones you can often elicit that same feeling. We rarely do that to each other as humans but we do it to our dogs ALL THE TIME. It is a small wonder more don't flip out on us than do already.

I'll then do something similar where I'll face the same direction as the clients and kinda meander in backwards and then look at them over my shoulder. I can get super close without setting off the internal alarms. Be aware of it. If you are going to approach do so indirectly, at tangents. Don't square up so much, and don't do so much leaning over. Now with dogs that are very familiar with you you can get away with all that. I generally work to desensitize all dogs I work with to approaches I may make that are direct. This comfort rarely generalizes to others though. Other people have to work with that.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I am glad that approach <b> is the most recommended, because it's definitely the easiest!

I like the idea of saying "He is a rescue, he gets scared/uncomfortable when people lean over & pet him when he's laying down."
I can throw this in when I first greet visitors at the door, and they will hopefully be more careful about how they pet him.
I think the first time I said, "He growled at someone who was leaning over him and petting his head before" and that scared the guest to death!

( So far, I haven't seen any issues with kids - at my daughter's birthday party, he was surrounded by girls who wanted to pet him, and he kind of melted onto the floor and laid down on his side in a circle of adoring girls.  Kids seem to be instinctively better with animals - when they meet him, the first thing they do is sit down crosslegged on the floor or get on their knees, for better petting access. And, they like to pet on his sides and on his back. Adults are the ones who lean over from full height, stare in his eyes, & pat on the head. )


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Baillif said:


> I'll tell them that they have a highly cognitive brain and they have an understanding that I'm a friendly guy and not there to hurt them and they logically "know" this. They're usually seating during the lecture so what I do next has an even more obvious effect. I'll pick one stare directly into their eyes with a flat look on my own face and then I square my shoulders to them and walk directly into their personal space get really close and then look down while standing over the top of them. I stand there for a second and then I say "You feel that?" Everyone feels that. Even when your cognitive brain says no danger your lower order brain that controls fight or flight will scream danger and emotionally that is what you will feel. You WILL feel alarmed. Even if you do it to loved ones you can often elicit that same feeling. We rarely do that to each other as humans but we do it to our dogs ALL THE TIME. It is a small wonder more don't flip out on us than do already.


Agreed, yes, this feels threatening! 
I know that I didn't like it when teachers or lecturers came and stood over me when I was sitting ... I always had the urge to get away. 

I'm glad that nobody said "this is a dominance issue" and that I have to train him out of it, 
because I really would not know how, and also I thought that he was just feeling uncomfortable, not trying to dominate/raise himself over humans.

Thank you also for the book recommendation - have heard a lot of good things about Patricia McConnell!
I just finished reading that NY Times bookseller "Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know" when I was on the plane.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The only thing I have to add is...there was talk of kneeling down in front of the dog instead of leaning over it and also talk of internal alarm bells. Well, thinking of kneeling down in front of the dog who has growled at people for towering over it makes me see face bites. Yikes. 

It's hard to know what you have right at first. I had a rescue who was pretty quick to growl but very slow to bite or act on it in any other way. The closest thing we ever came was he snapped at me very early on. It was a warning. If he had wanted to hurt me he certainly could have. I know it doesn't always carry over but he was like this with other dogs: very expressive with growls and wolfy faces (raised lip) and air snaps. It was all very socially appropriate except he would guard food to another dog-- but every other instance he would be raising his lip or growling because it needed to be done, he was never a bully and awesome socially with other dogs, never even left a scrape on another dog in all the years i had him and we had some pretty crazy mixed groups of dogs that he was a part of. 

He quit growling at us pretty quickly with some training and never snapped at anyone again after the one time, and later I came to believe he probably would have been as slow to hurt a person as he was to hurt another dog (which was never)-- at least a non threatening person. But when you first adopt a big dog you know nothing about and it starts growling at people, you kind of have to take it at its word...maybe I will bite if you don't quit that.

Both he who I think was a white mix and my white shepherd are vocal dogs and growly talkers (happy growly talk like huskies do) and also both more likely to grumble if they are unhappy or uncomfortable compared to my other two shepherds who were not growly talkers and rarely if ever growled under any other circumstances so I wonder if there is a connection between the two


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Ah yes, should clarify so nobody gets alarmed
"Kids" at our house means "big kids" - middle-schoolers and teens (the friends of my kids)! 
If it was my sister's kids (age 1 and 4) or other young kids, he would definitely be crated or highly supervised...
i.e. at Thanksgiving, I saw my sister's 1 year old "pet" a cat by grabbing the top of its head and twisting (OUCH).

Re kneeling- typically the kids start petting Rumo and he will "melt" into a down position, then tip over onto his side and lay there. Sometimes he even falls asleep. They usually sit/kneel around him and pet him and chat, then they lose interest and go do other things. The kids tend not to pet his head, mostly his side. Actually he rolls over onto his back, fully exposing his tummy, ONLY to my daughter! Even with my husband and me (the chosen One), he will lay on his side - but not roll onto his back. 

Interesting about white GSDs and huskies perhaps being more vocal...he is a silent guy, but has loud deep barks for the door! His growls don't have a lot of menace behind them, but I wouldn't trust my own judgment.

Re Rescue - Yep, 4 months in now, getting to know him - seems like he has been hit in the past, hopefully we can change his opinion of the human race.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The only thing I have to add is...there was talk of kneeling down in front of the dog instead of leaning over it and also talk of internal alarm bells. Well, thinking of kneeling down in front of the dog who has growled at people for towering over it makes me see face bites. Yikes.
> 
> It's hard to know what you have right at first. I had a rescue who was pretty quick to growl but very slow to bite or act on it in any other way. The closest thing we ever came was he snapped at me very early on. It was a warning. If he had wanted to hurt me he certainly could have. I know it doesn't always carry over but he was like this with other dogs: very expressive with growls and wolfy faces (raised lip) and air snaps. It was all very socially appropriate except he would guard food to another dog-- but every other instance he would be raising his lip or growling because it needed to be done, he was never a bully and awesome socially with other dogs, never even left a scrape on another dog in all the years i had him and we had some pretty crazy mixed groups of dogs that he was a part of.


There are more caveats to kneeling down in front of them than just saying hey kneel down. When you kneel you need to lean back and not forward. That will do two things. 1. makes it really easy to evade backwards and defend your face and neck and 2. Dogs will usually target the closest thing to them and you don't want that to be your face. It makes you way less threatening too. The other caveat is you are wanting the dog to come to you. If the dog isn't coming to you it certainly isn't time to move forward unless you have to for some reason. That brings up another important part. When you kneel do it at a distance of at least a yard or two. Don't be right there on the dog. Most people don't know enough to kind of force the issue so just take your time with dogs like that.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

You kneel down in front of my dog while the anthem is playing....hello ER.

SuperG


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