# dog saved from shelter attacks 3, shot by deputies



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Dog rescued from shelter attacks 3, fatally shot by deputy - WMBFNews.com, Myrtle Beach/Florence SC, Weather

The German Shepherd that was rescued from euthanization two weeks ago, then shot and killed Sunday afternoon by a Union County deputy after the dog attacked three people, was first picked up as a stray in Rowan County.

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have so many opinions on this that I truly don't think I can put them into words. 

This is a situation that should never have happened. 


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> *I have so many opinions on this that I truly don't think I can put them into words. *
> 
> This is a situation that should never have happened.
> 
> ...


Me too, this made my head hurt! Here's a link to the Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/paulGSD


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

*"In the previous weeks leading to this event, Saul only barked at those who he did not know and quickly changed his mood and demeanor with positive reinforcement of wanted behavior. He showed a high level of intelligence and willingness to please without signs of aggression during training or routine socializations. Saul was in my opinion making excellent progress." *

I'm really curious what was done to curb the unwanted behaviors....can't just positively reinforce wanted behaviors and not deal with the unwanted...

I have so many questions...and so many thoughts. Off to see what I can find on the "trainer" that somehow let THREE people get attacked. I have seen a few pretty aggressive dogs act out with professional (dealing specifically with aggression) trainers, and the dogs never had a chance to get to any one person, let alone everyone that was there....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are some dogs out there that can never be 100% safe again and you either manage them or put em down. Tough part is figuring out which is which sometimes. Dog got two more weeks of life than it should have had.

From what i have been told by someone that knows her she isnt a force free trainer. So while im not privy to the details she is likely to have left those details out of her facebook updates.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Ohh boy. I worked with Pit Bull Rescue and any bite history made the dog unadoptable. At first I thought this was harsh but after seeing all the lovely friendly stable pits that needed homes, I came to realize that there was no point in taking a risk by adopting out a potential known aggressor. It was for the good of the breed.

This is a very sad story.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

5 years of dog training experience isn't a lot. Really. 

I think it is a sad story. Someone thinks they can do more than they can. But unless you try, how can you know? The dog was aggressive. But it does not seem to state that the dog was seriously evaluated by any type of behaviorist. The k9 officer has experience with a type of dog, and stated the dog was unsocialized and aggressive. 

I think it was a mistake. There are plenty of dogs out there that need homes, if we stick with the ones that do not have bite histories, maybe less people will get bitten. This one GSD hit the list as having bitten the K9 officer, the trainer/owner, the person helping with the socialization, the other officer. 

Might something had been a little different if the trainer had done a 2-week shut down and let the dog settle, maybe for a month or more before starting her rehabilitation? We will never know. 

This is bad for rescue and shelter adoptions, and bad for our breed. It's too bad. I don't know if the shelter was wrong in giving the woman a shot at the dog. But it turned out badly. 

I really do not think it really speaks about the ineffectiveness of positive approaches, as I think without allowing the dog to settle and adjust, two weeks is such a short time, it only speaks that whoever was trying to use the methods tried too much, too soon, with the wrong dog. 

RIP Paul, AKA Saul, now you've been released from your demons.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Baillif said:


> There are some dogs out there that can never be 100% safe again and you either manage them or put em down. Tough part is figuring out which is which sometimes. Dog got two more weeks of life than it should have had.
> 
> *From what i have been told by someone that knows her she isnt a force free trainer. So while im not privy to the details she is likely to have left those details out of her facebook updates.*


Interesting, I wonder what really happened...why were they out? Why wasn't the dog muzzled? Why so many bites? Did they test the dog appropriately and really get into it's nerve (through obedience/proofing etc) enough to know what triggered it, why, and what it's go to action is/was?

Agree that some dogs just aren't safe....also interesting that it was scheduled to be euthanized, but the community outrage, semi-forced the shelter's hand to adopt out to trainer....and now look where we are.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

How sad.

Dog is not stable. Then is saved from being euthanized. Sounds like it's thrown into inappropriate socialization scenarios which goes bad...really bad. The poor people who were bit and this poor dog- not a good existence for his short life in our world.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Some just arent worth the trouble. 
I would never use a food bowl to feed such a dog, NILF and be very careful. Dog looked quite friendly and submissive in the video I saw. 

Probably resource guarder or super sensitive, maybe just a screw loose.

Looks like some ByBs cute mistake.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Dog Trainer Programs: Schools for Dog Trainers, Dog Training Schools - Animal Behavior College

This is where the trainer, Chivon Winter, was trained and certified.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I have so many opinions on this that I truly don't think I can put them into words.
> 
> This is a situation that should never have happened.
> 
> ...










DaniFani said:


> Dog Trainer Programs: Schools for Dog Trainers, Dog Training Schools - Animal Behavior College
> 
> This is where the trainer, Chivon Winter, was trained and certified.


Wow!! Haven't been on in awhile" blows my mind! 
Thanks for the info dani. Bill

n.c.


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> Dog rescued from shelter attacks 3, fatally shot by deputy - WMBFNews.com, Myrtle Beach/Florence SC, Weather
> 
> 
> *But the public started to rally to save the dog. County officials say several people contacted them to adopt the German Shepherd.
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Dog Trainer Programs: Schools for Dog Trainers, Dog Training Schools - Animal Behavior College
> 
> This is where the trainer, Chivon Winter, was trained and certified.


She ordered some manuals and got a toilet paper certification.

She frequented a trainer forum a friend of mine is on and he was telling me she was more or less going out of business. She didn't really seem to know what she was doing. Publicity stunt gone really really wrong.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Me too, this made my head hurt! Here's a link to the Facebook page.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/paulGSD


The link doesn't work anymore. 

Sounds like the trainer had tunnel vision and overrated their ability to work with and read dogs. They discredited the k9 officers(?) observation and painted him in a negative light, not to mention some shelter staff who had described the dog as bipolar. Disregard all the warnings, including using a muzzle?


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## Jusdy (Mar 14, 2014)

The dog obviously wasn't ready. What I read was she only had Paul for a few months and to me that isn't enough time for a full grown dog to get bonded with its new owner. He was probley confused out of his mind and went out on instinct. It took my aggressive GSD, Ivy, 5 months to bond and accept me as her owner. Until the dog accepted the lady, I believe he should have not been out in public. The dog was scared and with him not knowing who he could trust and feel safe by acted out by biting.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

The trainer was an active poster here a couple of years ago.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Dog Trainer Programs: Schools for Dog Trainers, Dog Training Schools - Animal Behavior College
> 
> This is where the trainer, Chivon Winter, was trained and certified.


I googled and found that she'd gone to Triple Crown as well. It was right on her website. 

In NYS (not sure of the status - think it was thankfully tabled) there was an attempt to pass Oreo's Law that basically said if any group (not sure about individual) wants to take a dog, regardless of shelter eval or shelter impressions, they can. If you google Oreo's Law NY, you will get a ton of results (and your head may pop off at what you read).

I am all about helping dogs. I especially feel that fearful dogs who do not aggress at all can be helped greatly and should be, and in the right hands, certain types of fear aggressive dogs who have never bitten can flourish - so a limited pool of dog to people match, and many of those dogs need to be passed on unless you know you can accommodate them. BUT, in my mind, you do not inflict dogs on the public who have already bitten, regardless of shelter stress, because a behavior under stress is going to be their fall back behavior when they hit a stress trigger. 

There are piles and piles of wonderful dogs who would not bite, who would be awesome family pets, sport dogs, and more. Maybe they have soft ears, are older, are spazzy, aren't whatever color is in - or they may be stunning behaviorally and exhibit physical perfection. They don't have a thrilling story, and no one rallies around them, and they never make the papers for getting through a shelter eval flawlessly, sitting in a kennel with 5 other dogs, and being wonderful dogs, and they die. 

It doesn't always happen this way - so remember to focus on the dogs that can and should be helped, and please, if everyone who reads this thread could find a way to help their local dogs, all those dogs may not not find themselves in that pile. 10 Ways to Help Shelter Animals Without Adopting | Lowcountry Dog


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

This makes me so angry! Why the heck did she have a dog with a known bite history out in public without a muzzle?! If people want to rehab these dogs, and they're willing to get themselves bitten in the process, why can't they understand that no one else signed up for _that_?! This situation makes me sick. RIP Paul. This idiotic move will have repercussions going forward, I'm sure of that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> It doesn't always happen this way - so remember to focus on the dogs that can and should be helped, and please, if everyone who reads this thread could find a way to help their local dogs, all those dogs may not not find themselves in that pile. 10 Ways to Help Shelter Animals Without Adopting | Lowcountry Dog


To add to this great post:

If you are an experienced trainer, volunteer to help put some OB on the dogs. They really do adopt out quicker if they can walk on a loose leash and greet people with 4 on the floor.

I recommend the Sarah Kalnajs videos if you want to help evaluate dogs for the shelters in your area. It will make you a better trainer, and it will save lives.

I totally agree that only stable dogs should really have a ton of time put into them, unless the trainer is trying to learn something from the dog. IMHO, every dog should be evaluated and only the dogs that are not dangerous should be put in genpop for adoption. 

I like the knuckleheads that mouth everyone and knock people over, so I choose to work with them often and help them to find families. A fear biter in a shelter is not worth the resources it takes to maybe get somewhere with the dog IMO. It has to be stable in a new home with a novice owner. That's a tall order to fill for a trainer that will probably never spend a moment with the new owner.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Like David said, to me its all about time and resources. Sadly, a dog that has problems is going to take time and resources away from the stable dogs that could be adopted quicker and easier if they just had a little bit of manners on them. But if shelter staff or volunteers are spending all their time trying to retrain and rehome a dog that isn't stable, there is less time for all those normal dogs that will then get passed over.

What upsets me is the cases that get public support get thousands of people lining up to adopt, and when that one dog is adopted out, the people don't keep looking for a different dog in a shelter. Not that its the same thing, but in Milwaukee we have "Hank the dog" who managed to wander onto the Milwaukee Brewers' practice field during spring training. He became a public sensation and over a thousand applications came in to adopt him. He found a home with a team executive...but I wonder how many out of that thousand adopted a different dog from our humane society...


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

martemchik said:


> What upsets me is the cases that get public support get thousands of people lining up to adopt, and when that one dog is adopted out, the people don't keep looking for a different dog in a shelter. Not that its the same thing, but in Milwaukee we have "Hank the dog" who managed to wander onto the Milwaukee Brewers' practice field during spring training. He became a public sensation and over a thousand applications came in to adopt him. He found a home with a team executive...but I wonder how many out of that thousand adopted a different dog from our humane society...


People like that usually jump on the bandwagon and it's almost a bragging point to have such a "cool" background story on the dog

Mostly however I think it's simply the case that they don't want *A* dog, they want *THAT* dog


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> People like that usually jump on the bandwagon and it's almost a bragging point to have such a "cool" background story on the dog
> 
> Mostly however I think it's simply the case that they don't want *A* dog, they want *THAT* dog


Yeah, I know.

Still upsetting though. Like, recently I've been seeing a lot of the Vick dog update articles on FB. And when you read them, you realize people spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars either picking those dogs up from Virginia or shipping them to the far reaches of the United States just so they can have one. Well...why did you need THAT one? Go adopt a dog at your local shelter, spend the $100-$300 that they ask for usually as a "donation", and if you can still afford to pay out that difference, donate more to save more dogs. Why pay that money to an airline or a shipping company instead of using it to help that what is truly important to you.

But...people love telling others that their dog was abused or attacked or whatever else was told to them by the humane society and then showing how they've rehabbed the dog and helped it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It just really pisses me off because I'm always sticking up for the dogs with a bite history, since sometimes it's just all about incorrect handling. But geez, I thought it would be common sense not to underestimate the potential for a future bite, and take precautions!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Knowing what i know i question the motivation behind the whole thing. A project like that should be about the dog, not having something to prove.

Her posts that went up and were subsequently removed were just silly. She tried to paint herself as some hero professional that sacrificed her own body to prevent the dog from attacking everyone else there, which happened anyway. Then claimed the only other person there that got bit was another trainer. Must have forgot about the officer that was bit twice. 

All bs aside that kind of thing could happen to anybody. We have dogs here that could do something like that. We do our best to manage them but theres risks involved. I have 8 stitches on my jawline right now from a dog that didn't even attack me. Just big strong fast and uncoordinated and i happened to be in the way.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know accidents happen. I have a piece of my front tooth missing from horsing around with my pup. And being too cheap to have it capped properly, it'll stay that way since the filling fell out, lol. 

But why not do the right thing and use a muzzle in public? How hard is that? There's no excuse for this to happen. Do people need to take an IQ test before adopting from now on? C'mon! What it means is that people are going to be even more careful about releasing possible aggression cases. So even more great dogs will be PTS, rather than taking a risk by adopting out.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

She claimed the park was empty cept for her and the other trainer she was with. I dunno how the dog went on a rampage for so long it was still going nuts till police and animal control showed up but i dont see any way that went down without them losing control of the dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It doesn't matter if it was empty to me - it matters that it was a public space. It matters that taking a dog like this is a responsibility, and not one to be taken lightly. And on top of that, the breed doesn't need any more bad publicity. Total failure, from all angles.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

As soon as I read there was a facebook page and a trainer's actual facility name attached to the article, I knew this was more than just a "save a dog" thing. Sadly, most times its about $$$ and getting your name out there. This trainer took a risk, thought she could rehab a dog, and if it turned out successfully, she would've been the talk of the town and had lines out the door with people wanting to train with her. Sadly, it ended this way, and now the trainer is going to have this reputation.

What's even worse is that she's probably a decent trainer, but anyone that's looking into working with her, will google her name and see all the articles about this particular dog.

Does it sound like the dog got pushed too far? Sure... but I don't like to make judgments based off of limited information articles that are just summing up what has occurred.

I commend people for working with dogs that have a bite history...mostly because I would personally NEVER take one in. Not that I believe they all need to be put down, but I realize that thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours are spent rehabbing some of these dogs, instead of taking 2 hours to teach 100 normal dogs how to sit and walk on a leash so that they could find homes.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

That dog was pushed - it's pretty well known in the foster/adopt world that it takes about 2 weeks for a dog to settle in. During which time, a lot of the behaviors you see or don't see are simply because the dog is not yet comfortable with its environment. 

Regardless, they started expecting too much too fast, they were setting the dog up for too much too fast. When the dog reacted and bit, I'm almost certain there was an overreaction to the incident. The dog was in fight mode and not thinking. This is a dog with a known bite history and a pretty large suspicion of strangers. Enter cops and other authorities and the dog probably had a melt down leading to the officer having to shoot the dog. 

I think, in the beginning, the dog should have always, ALWAYS had a basket muzzle during training exercises. Not doing so only lead to setting the dog up for failure. Perhaps the dog wouldn't have bitten, and the muzzle would just have been a clunky, useless safety measure... but it could have saved the dog's life. You can still treat the dog through a basket muzzle. 

But that's really neither here nor there, this person thought they knew what they were doing however it doesn't appear to me they had a plan in place to know how to handle a worse case scenario situation (though, in my mind what happened could have been much worse should there have been other bystanders or children involved... on the FB page they invite the followers out in mass to help with socialization :/ I was a bit taken aback by that as again, too much too soon!).


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I cannot for the life of me fathom why this dog was allowed to be adopted out.

I love dogs as much as the next person, especially GSDs, but a dog with a known aggression problem and willingness to bite is a liability no one should bear, even if they want to be a hero. This story is a perfect example of what can go wrong when people try to "rehabilitate" vicious dogs. 

When you have something to prove, the focus is no longer on the dog, but the ego of the people who want to "save" it. Because they have an agenda, their perspective is skewed and they put the life of a vicious dog above the lives and safety of people. Maybe not consciously. I am sure they mean well. But they do not see the forest for the trees.

When dogs are an endangered species, we can worry about saving every single one. But as it stands now, there are too many nice, stable, social dogs languishing in shelters. Why should resources be spent on the vicious ones?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

because no matter how vicious people feel sorry for them and feel they are misunderstood
biggest crock ever but that is how it is
a dog can kill a person be it adult or child and theres gonna be vigils and people feeling sorry for the dog and justifying why it has killed
so many people are freaking idiots and they are multiplying quickly


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If you'd ever met any dogs that were relinquished with a bite history, then you'd see that in many cases the dogs were put in a bad situation to begin with, and that lead to the bite. Situations that our own dogs would never see in a million years. So it's not just "feeling sorry" for the dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> If you'd ever met any dogs that were relinquished with a bite history, then you'd see that in many cases the dogs were put in a bad situation to begin with, and that lead to the bite. Situations that our own dogs would never see in a million years. So it's not just "feeling sorry" for the dog.


Yeah...that's why I don't judge when people do try to rescue/rehab these dogs. Sometimes, the people are the problem. But in this case...once the dog bit the officer in the shelter, I'm sure the excuse of, "It's just being weird because of the shelter" was used and so the dog was still considered for rehoming.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I honestly don't even want to guess what happened here, since I didn't see the dog - that would be asinine. But no more asinine than allowing this situation to occur in the first place. WTH are people thinking when they refuse to use muzzles in public, when they KNOW the dog might bite? As much as I think most dogs deserve a chance and I'll overlook alot of things, I don't just assume that the general public agrees, and for that reason alone I'd be ultra careful.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> If you'd ever met any dogs that were relinquished with a bite history, then you'd see that in many cases the dogs were put in a bad situation to begin with, and that lead to the bite. Situations that our own dogs would never see in a million years. So it's not just "feeling sorry" for the dog.


 Yes, but the bottom line is that not all dogs in "bad situations" resort to biting. A dog's willingness to bite a human reveals a certain temperament. 

It totally depends on the situation of course, if a dog is abused to the point of having to defend himself, that's one thing. Many dogs have to pushed to bite, and some dogs won't bite even when pushed. Others will simply learn to bite in order to get their way. Sure, some can be "rehabilitated", but you always have to consider the temperament that underlies. You can effect behavior, but you cannot change temperament.

To me, it makes no sense to "rehab" a known biter when there are untold numbers of nice, non-biting dogs that could really use those resources, and would bring great happiness to their adoptive families.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I honestly don't even want to guess what happened here, since I didn't see the dog - that would be asinine. But no more asinine than allowing this situation to occur in the first place. WTH are people thinking when they refuse to use muzzles in public, when they KNOW the dog might bite? As much as I think most dogs deserve a chance and I'll overlook alot of things, I don't just assume that the general public agrees, and for that reason alone I'd be ultra careful.


I agree with everything you're saying about the dog needing to be muzzled in public. I'm just really curious if you've considered that maybe the trainer had had so many encounters/interactions with the dog that were so positive, that they really did trust and believe that something like what actually happened, would never happen. I know as trainers they are held to a higher standard, especially where safety is concerned. However, I really wonder if the dog hadn't shown any signs of this kind of behavior for awhile, and the trainer obviously trusted it too much, let their guard down, and over estimated their abilities. The crux of everything being that the trainer let her guard down, due to lack of seeing anything really worrisome (trainer's fault, but it's usually what happens every time with a bite. Dog showed signs, just not "bad enough" or often enough, and guards were let down).

This is why I am always SO cautious on the "my dog bit my child, grandmother, spouse, neighbor, etc" threads. It's SO easy to let your guard down. If you already don't want to see your dog in that light, and then you have people saying, "oh it'll probably be just fine, find a trainer." That's why I want to emphasize that everything is not okay at all, may not be fine, and rehoming (sometimes euth) needs to be at the forefront of the mind while a trainer is sought out. I don't want to encourage any kind of guard being let down, even inadvertently (especially over the internet). I'd rather try and keep them in that frame of mind that this is really bad, and could get even worse. As we've all said before, it only takes a second.

Ultimately I think the responsibility of this falls on the shoulders of the shelter. It's their job to determine the safety of these animals they are putting out in the general public. They are the professionals, not Facebook groups filled with bleeding hearts. They needed to stick to their guns with their original assessment, imo. It sucks, to go against a mass of people....but look at the potential outcome. Especially, as others have pointed out, there are TONS of dogs out there that need homes that don't have these issues. As terrible as some think that is, resources and money should be going to those, imho.

On a side note, it sounds like the dog really did lose it. I've seen ONE dog lose it with no one being able to get through to it (screw loose). Dog was actually a police k9 that lost it one day. It started being unable to turn off it's defense drive...I mean, unable to stop. It was incredible to see. The dog couldn't stop. It was sad. Thank goodness the person running the police academy that assessed it, took it to live out it's life at their facility. Very well managed (dog was 7 or 8), otherwise it would have just been put down.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's like what I already posted in another thread today: it's quite easy to invoke this behavior. I'm not talking about severe genetic issues either - just teaching a dog that snapping is effective. And watch it escalate. And then throw in the towel. 

But it's the same thing as me saying, "No problemo, a dog that can't be around children can still be a wonderful companion in the right environment" and then turn around and see that the new owner lets it loose in a playground. Common sense.

ETA: Dani, she hadn't had the dog long enough. With that bite history behind him, it would take a long time before my muzzle would come off in public. A very long time.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Freestep said:


> To me, it makes no sense to "rehab" a known biter when there are untold numbers of nice, non-biting dogs that could really use those resources, and would bring great happiness to their adoptive families.


Makes perfect sense if you're trying to play to emotions to drum up publicity for a business. How many rescues Facebook post about their sad disaster dog case where it's an absolute mess of a dog with a sob story behind it?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Makes perfect sense if you're trying to play to emotions to drum up publicity for a business. How many rescues Facebook post about their sad disaster dog case where it's an absolute mess of a dog with a sob story behind it?


Yes, like I said, there has to be an agenda.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good intentions gone really bad? The trainer wasn't the most experienced, but appears to have a pretty balanced resume' from behavioral issues to protection dogs. Went to two different dog training schools (write up on her site about that). 

What a sad ending for all involved.

Interesting write up from the trainer involved:

https://dualpurposedogtraining.jux.com/2337287



> I've said it once, I’ll say it again here, and in the future: Your dog’s relationship with you will determine if he’s afraid/intimidated/fearful of you. No training tool should come in between your relationship with your dog. The same goes for food. If your dog is only working for the food that you have, and blows you off when you don’t have food, then that’s a relationship problem.


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