# German Shepherds and small children



## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Hello,
Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.

We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.

Experienced GSD owners with families: Is it prudent to own this breed when your children are small? I am going to continue to have babies for the next ten years. We have 3 kids now; going on 6, going on 4 and a baby. Should I defer ownership of a dog like this 17 years from now when the youngest possible child would be 7, theoretically? If the answer is yes the answer is yes, but it's a tall order.

I need to be able to absolutely trust whatever dog we buy; that is non-negotiable. The dog has to be impeccably solid nerved. No ceiling on excellence here for a dog that will be trusted with my children. I need a dog I can turn my back on that will act as a trusted partner - every parent knows you cannot supervise 100% of the time. That is not real life. I know the dog must be trained, but the training phase is what concerns me for the children's safety more than anything. I don't know that it is practically possible. I am willing to work to train the dog, but I am not willing to work to the extent that we turn our lives upside down to train the dog.

I know these dogs have a "land shark" phase, which ideally I would like to side-step entirely by buying a more mature adolescent; however, the drawback of that is socialization with children from early puppyhood is lost. I am concerned it is not possible to manage this phase safely with small children.

I have read several threads on here about children and GSDs and talked to multiple breeders but I am interested in hearing your honest opinions of and experiences regarding my particular concerns. If you have successfully managed having a GSD and small children, I would like to hear about it. If you have tried and failed, I would like to hear about it.

If you have made it work and love your GSD's temperament with children and your GSD is completely non reactive and sound, I want to know who your breeder was.

If you think a GSD is a poor choice for us, any breed recommendations that you do think are good?

Thanks in advance for reading my long post. It's very important to me that we make the right decision for our family and I appreciate relevant insight greatly.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

We have had and raised 3 Germans, with our grandchildren as frequent (3-4 days per week) visitors. It will depend on you , the dog or pup you choose, your ground rules but it can certainly work. Our oldest girl would place herself in the water on vacation and here with our pond whenever the grands kids got close to it. She would sleep with her head at the edge of the babie's blanket on the floor. Always supervised, but always gentle and watchful. It's been wonderful.








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And with our cats.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@ksotto333 Thank you so much for your reply and for including those nice pictures of your family and dogs. The one of your toddler grandchild getting a lick - too cute! This is what I am looking for - gentle but watchful. May I ask where you obtained your dogs? I'm in VA.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A GSD can be a dream or a nightmare and anything in between. Start by taking your time to search for a breeder you can trust and has dogs that you like, who can refer you to clients who have their dogs for references. I would forgo on rescues in this case to prevent unexpected bagage. Crucial is temperamant, training, physical and mental exercise and good experiences with the kids early on. Even if all boxes are checked, any dog in that category remains an animal that responds with animal instincts. Never would I ever leave a GSD, no matter how I trust the dog, alone in a yard or anywhere unsupervised, with kids. It's a tough call for a dog to walk in Lassie's footsteps.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I don’t have much experience as I’ve had my gsd pup for a month and a half, but I have a 2 and 6 year old. So far our pup is really good at understanding they are kids, she really took to our 6 year old right away, she also had a firm correction the first time play got to rough with 2 yo. And that was the last time she thought of it. I wouldn’t let them play unsupervised as that’s how the nipping can get out of hand. It isn’t aggressive it’s a puppy being a puppy, but kids don’t know that and then that’s a negative experience for both. We also use gates, whenever it isn’t a productive interaction I separate them, or if I can’t intervene. All interactions with kids in my short experience should have a toy so they know the child isn’t the toy, if it gets out of hand all done separate. My breeder also knew I had a young family, choosing the right breeder will make or break your experience in my early opinion. But so far she defiantly fits our family well, likes our kids (and other kids) but it is a ton of work keeping tabs on everyone lol.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Finding one that's 100% great with kids outside left alone and being a guard dog is very tough. I'd never leave this breed outside alone with kids. Like humans these animals aren't perfect. Maybe look into a different breed to be left outside alone with kids such as labs. Since you're looking to skip the puppy stage call around breeders who could possibly work with what you're looking for. Or training facilities.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@wolfy dog In this case, I need a dog I can leave in the yard with the kids. I want an extra set of eyes to help me keep them safe. It's not ideal, but it is what it is. The alternative is the kids don't get to go outside as much. I guess that means I need a dog that is lower drive? I don't want a sack of potatoes, lol, right, but I don't want an avid herder either.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

GSD do make great family dogs. The first two years come with a major learning curve.

With all the kiddos you plan on having I would say wait. I think 7 is a good age of a kid to introduce a GSD. I wouldn't want my kids any younger. You will have your hands full with kids who need you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> @wolfy dog In this case, I need a dog I can leave in the yard with the kids. I want an extra set of eyes to help me keep them safe. It's not ideal, but it is what it is. The alternative is the kids don't get to go outside as much. I guess that means I need a dog that is lower drive? I don't want a sack of potatoes, lol, right, but I don't want an avid herder either.





LateAthenian said:


> @wolfy dog In this case, I need a dog I can leave in the yard with the kids. I want an extra set of eyes to help me keep them safe. It's not ideal, but it is what it is. The alternative is the kids don't get to go outside as much. I guess that means I need a dog that is lower drive? I don't want a sack of potatoes, lol, right, but I don't want an avid herder either.


A good GSD is bred to work with people and to keep "things" under control. How do you teach kids to remain calm in the presence of the dog? Maybe a Mastiff would be a better choice. They are wired to observe and guard that way, not display herding behavior


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

AE316 said:


> Finding one that's 100% great with kids outside left alone and being a guard dog is very tough. I'd never leave this breed outside alone with kids. Like humans these animals aren't perfect. Maybe look into a different breed to be left outside alone with kids such as labs. Since you're looking to skip the puppy stage call around breeders who could possibly work with what you're looking for. Or training facilities.


Hm, I'm concerned to hear this again. What is the concern here? The dog will be aggressive towards the children? Shouldn't they view them as their "herd" to protect? I was nipped by my grandparents' GSD as a kid running around the yard - herding - but it wasn't like it really endangered me or something. I don't want my kids getting nipped, but I absolutely wouldn't tolerate legit aggression.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I've got soon to be 5 & 9 year old kids with a 6 month old WL GSD. If I were going to do what you'd want I'd pay extra for a private trainer with a more mature dog. It would take a lot of training so the dog doesn't react to the kids running around being wild & screaming. Still, at the end of the day risky unless the kids were older.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> A good GSD is bred to work with people and to keep "things" under control. How do you teach kids to remain calm in the presence of the dog? Maybe a Mastiff would be a better choice. They are wired to observe and guard that way, not display herding behavior


Mastiffs make me nervous. My friend's Great Pyrenees broke their daughter's arm (food aggression) and another friend of mine with a mastiff had a bite incident with her toddler. What draws me to GSDs is they seem to be more intelligent and discriminating than molossers, who are more the bruisers. Both are potentially violent though, it's true. Gosh, it's so hard trying to balance wanting to protect your kids from strangers with protecting them from their dog!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I was referring to the English Mastiff. Or a compromise in a Rough Collie? Still herding dog but milder than a GSD in it's instincts to control. Again, these are not Lassie-clones


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

I appreciate your honesty @AE316 .


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

If my yard was fenced I would trust my dogs outside with the kids. Adult dogs that is like 3 ish depending on the dog. My 1.5 year old would be fine but he is a special dude.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Not a breed I had considered but a good thought @wolfy dog . Thank you!


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Asking a GSD not to nip might be hard especially if you're not around supervising as the handler unless one of the kids take charge. At the end of day it's a huge gamble and as a parent I'd say no to this breed to be left unsupervised with kids. The dog will probably think it's in charge (the leader) when you're not around.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Carter Smith said:


> I don’t have much experience as I’ve had my gsd pup for a month and a half, but I have a 2 and 6 year old. So far our pup is really good at understanding they are kids, she really took to our 6 year old right away, she also had a firm correction the first time play got to rough with 2 yo. And that was the last time she thought of it. I wouldn’t let them play unsupervised as that’s how the nipping can get out of hand. It isn’t aggressive it’s a puppy being a puppy, but kids don’t know that and then that’s a negative experience for both. We also use gates, whenever it isn’t a productive interaction I separate them, or if I can’t intervene. All interactions with kids in my short experience should have a toy so they know the child isn’t the toy, if it gets out of hand all done separate. My breeder also knew I had a young family, choosing the right breeder will make or break your experience in my early opinion. But so far she defiantly fits our family well, likes our kids (and other kids) but it is a ton of work keeping tabs on everyone lol.


It's encouraging to hear that your dog responded to a firm correction. I don't have any problem administering firm corrections, but like you said, you have to be so on top of things, and I would probably be adopting a gate system too to manage the potential conflicts. I know that since the GSD is a hard mouthed breed, the normal puppy stuff can be a lot worse.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Kids screaming saying help help playing a game could trigger the dog. My oldest son changed his tone of voice to deep to joke around inside the house and my dog barked with tail up. I told him to stop and corrected the dog too. Mind you this is a puppy we have, but a dog older could react the same way. Kids are unpredictable and the dog wouldn't know right from wrong.

Also curious to know what the breeders you spoke with suggested?


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@AE316 Does the nipping behavior persist throughout adulthood?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Spend some time reading puppy biting threads


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

No idea this is my first dog ever. I'm sure with corrections the answer is yes nipping will stop like with any breed going from puppy to adult. But at the end of the day even taking on a 3 or 5 year old GSD I'd have to witness a bunch of things from inside the house to observe how the dog manages when kids are being kids left outside alone. Kids change voices, scream, play fight, etc. This way you could shout from the window to correct the dog. Just seems like a lot of work and as stated it could be one of those days where something happens. The dog could even have a medical issue one day & reacts when you're not around. A brain tumor could develop and trigger the dog. I wouldn't risk it.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@AE316 good point. If the kids are ruff housing my dogs get put away. Kids friends come over dogs get put away or are in place. I have company that are not regulars dogs get put away or are in place. Having a dog be calm in chaos is work. Kids are chaos adorable and fun but chaos. Gsd wants to be involved in everything.


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

I think it really depends on the dog and the age of the child. There are certainly GSDs who would be able to be the type of family dog you’re looking for, but it does take a significant up-front investment in terms of training and also maturity in the dog.

That being said, the age of the kids also plays a huge factor. I remember reading a story about a great family dog who suddenly turned on the child in the house and severely injured it. Then it turned out the child had stuffed crayons in the dogs ears. Dogs and small children don’t always mix well and it’s not always the dog’s fault.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GSDs are wonderful dogs, but they need 2 good years of constant training and discipline to become these wonderful dogs.
We got Hans when the boys were already 7 and 9, and still, it was difficult. GSD puppies are notoriously bitey, and the boys didn’t appreciate that, so they stayed away from him.
Given how much work a GSD puppy requires, I can’t imagine getting one with kids under the ages mine were.
These dogs know who the young ones are in the pack, and very often don’t respect them. 
I would recommend another breed that doesn’t require all the training, supervision and vigilance.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> @AE316 Does the nipping behavior persist throughout adulthood?


Without the proper training, yes.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@brittanyS See, that is why I am hesitant. A breed like a golden retriever or a standard poodle is not likely to turn on a child even with provocation. I don't want a dog in my house that may hurt my children if they're acting like children. (Stuffing crayons in ears is next level but you know what I mean, pulling on them, messing with them, etc. If they can't be relied on to endure some poking and prodding then they aren't appropriate for families because kids beneath a certain age can't be trained to interact with dogs with caution and respect consistently, children forget or can't understand that dogs are dogs).


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

AE316 said:


> No idea this is my first dog ever. I'm sure with corrections the answer is yes nipping will stop like with any breed going from puppy to adult. But at the end of the day even taking on a 3 or 5 year old GSD I'd have to witness a bunch of things from inside the house to observe how the dog manages when kids are being kids left outside alone. Kids change voices, scream, play fight, etc. This way you could shout from the window to correct the dog. Just seems like a lot of work and as stated it could be one of those days where something happens. The dog could even have a medical issue one day & reacts when you're not around. A brain tumor could develop and trigger the dog. I wouldn't risk it.


This is not at all my experience with dozens of dogs. I can count on one hand the number of dogs I have had that I would be watchful of around kids. 
That said, OP you have unrealistic expectations of a dog. With all due respect, you want a nanny. Dogs do not come pre-programmed and they are living creatures. 
I had a female that would have willingly watched over every child in creation until **** froze over. But I think expecting to bring a dog into a busy household and have it miraculously turn out exactly as you wish is simply not reasonable. I read the part about you being willing to put in training but really? When? You work from home and have three small children. With plans to have more. I'm not sure any dog is going to be much more then an added burden for you.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I wouldn't get this breed for being unsupervised around kids. When I get my kids to command the dog to do something like before feeding it a meal I'm around cause the puppy knows I'm the leader and I'm training it to realize the kids are 2nd in command. So in 6-10 years I could have a better trust with them alone with the dog. By then they'll both my teenagers.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Having been raised with my Ceasar, I do not see what the concerns are. The dog does not know he is not a child and plays right along with them. In all these years, with all the dogs that have passed through my life I have never been bitten. I believe it is necessary to teach the CHILDREN how to behave around the dog. Teach the child not to pull the dog's tail. Teach the child not to hit the dog. German Shepherds in particular pick one person and that is THEIR person. It is usually a child, no idea why. I would definitely suggest raising a dog with the children although I would advise against expecting your dog to raise your children for you. I would also note that life is what happens while you are making plans. This is me, my Aunt and my Ceasar. We won't discuss the year. My dad bought him when I was born.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm curious to know how much time you will have to train and interact with the dog or pup. If you are planning on more children, I would think your time would be severely limited. GSD puppies can be a full time job. So are young children. 

It's not that some people don't manage both, but neither dog not children should be left alone with the other. As has been pointed out, the children can abuse the dog as easily as the dog could abuse them. That won't turn out well with these dogs. They will defend themselves if threatened. 

As Sabis Mom said, you have unrealistic expectations for the dog. None of what you want can be done without extensive training, and that takes a lot of time.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

@Sabis mom is correct. With that many children and a job, the dog needs to be turnkey. I don’t see where you would find the hours necessary to get a GSD to the point of being a great family dog.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

Agree unless you have money for a private trainer, but even then "unsupervised" is key. I juggle 2 kids alone with my puppy and it's a lot of work. Cooking, cleaning, training, playing with kids & puppy. The dog even a mature one will need time for stuff too. I agree with Sabi in terms of expecting too much from the dog. Plus unexpected stuff happens and with wanting more kids it's way too much work.

And these dogs generally aren't that affectionate. Try telling kids not to over pet, hug or whatever around the dog and the kids will do the opposite. My 4 year old will easily challenge me cause that's what kids do. 

A dog pretty much stays at the toddler age throughout its life IIRC. And this toddler comes packed with sharp teeth. That's my take on the whole thing. I do leave mine alone around the kids if I go into another room cause I can hear everything and do a recall. But even cooking, the dog for now gets crated because it just becomes too much unless everyone is calm (watching tv) and dog is busy with something or sticking around the kitchen with me wanting to rest.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@Sabis mom I am aware of how not ideal my circumstances are. I have no help. No local grandparents, no neighbors will help, and I can't afford to hire household help on a regular basis. I already hire a cleaner. The dog idea is to help my children have more security and freedom outside and is not an anthropomorphic contrivance. I am quite certain that it would burden me more, I have no illusions about that. But it is looking like it may just not be a safe option with this breed.
(To be clear, I don't work from home for a company; I'm a SAHM).


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Dogs should not be expected to happily take being the victim of harrassment (i.e. pulling hair, poking in the eyes, being sat on or any of the things that younger child might do unsupervised). ANY dog can, if provoked, snap. They need someone to be in charge to make sure that they are safe, just as the kids need someone to make sure they are safe. Children can be taught how to act appropriately around dogs and until they can be trusted to maintain that behavior even out of sight, they should not be left alone with a dog, even an amiable one.

I had a GSD that was probably 3 or 4 when I had my son. Of course, I watched them closely and they were not left alone together while my son was very young. When he became older (and knew how to be gentle with all animals), he would often roam around in the yard with my watching from the window. The dog went with him every step he made and did keep a careful eye on him. I also had a GSD when I was younger that was my first dog (I owned/trained it) that would not let anyone walk into the backyard, even people normally allowed, if my young nieces and nephews were outside. We had to approve their coming in. It can be done, but it needs to be fair to the dog as well as the children. Hopefully, this is an inside dog that goes out when people do and is not expected to stay outside by itself. That is a recipe for disaster and behaviors that you will not like.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

It looks like the consensus is that the breed is not a good fit for a young family and that the training for busy parents would be too much to produce a reliable dog. I trained a standard poodle with kids but there's a lot more room for error there. Oh well... I guess I'm waiting! Thank you all for your input!


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I wouldn't get any dog based on your situation (no offence). The stress level will be through the roof.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

GSDs vary a lot in temperament. I would bet money that my two would be perfectly fine with children in a backyard. They might be a nuisance if the children decided, OK, I don't want to play fetch any longer, I want to dig in the sandpile, or drive my Barbie jeep or whatever kids want to do these days. While I would bet money, I would not bet anyone's life or safety. No one in my social orbit has small children who visit. 

As a child of age 7 to maybe 12 or so, roughly 50-55 ## to right at 100-110## myself, I spent many, many days in my friend's backyard with his GSD. Until I hit age 8-9, she was probably as big as me, and certainly stronger. She never attacked, mauled, bit or even growled at either of us as kids. Years later, after I stopped coming over as much, my firend asked that I feed and water her while they were on vacation. I looked different. She barked at me when I walked up, then started wagging her tail when I spoke her name. She wasn't a nanny, though. My friend's mom was always home, and she did not work at any outside job.

I agree with comments that the dogs can't be caretakers. 

If I had to choose a breed of dog most closely suited to what you seem to be seeking, I'd say, a Newfoundland. We had two, one after the other over better part of two decades. Gentle, but as youngsters, a clumsy moment can knock a child or even an adult sprawling. They are not necessarily a "play with the burglars" breed. The ones we had would bark, very loudly, if someone came to the door or gate. They do have some baggage. The breed is not particularly long lived on average. Any vet service or medication based on size is through the roof. They shed a lot.
You will hear that they drool. They can. Our two were not constant droolers. If you want to take them on vacation, and there is any weight limit at a hotel or rental, well, fuggedaboutit. Our male weighed 152-160, full grown, the female went 120-132. Finding good, responsible breeders is a challenge. I wouldn't know who is who in the breed anymore. Kloof Bear in the Northeast, maybe? 
We did not stop having them because we fell out of love with the breed. The male passed away. My youngest, then a high schooler, found a GSD at a shelter. We looked at her, and adopted her.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

@AE316 I have made it work before. It is stressful. There is no ideal time to get a dog when you have a young or expanding family, so the dog just has to have the temperament where it could fit in happily with a reasonable amount of training. Our poodle is like that; I am gathering the GSD would not be.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Also lets correct this. I pulled several dog bite stats from random areas in the US and Canada. Mixed breeds account for the most reported bites almost across the board. I attached one.
What dog breeds bite the most in Allegheny County? - PublicSource

However, ask most people and these stats are flawed. Only reported bites can be tracked, of course, most bites don't get reported. Anyone who has worked with dogs will tell you that you are more likely to be bitten by a small dog. Chi's, Dachshunds, Shih Tzu's and poodles as well as ANY terrier all communicate commonly by use of teeth on human. There is also the problem of popularity. In Calgary, Alberta Labs had the second most bites several years running, followed by Goldens and Heelers. Why? Because they were EVERYWHERE! Lol. Seriously, you could not walk a block without running into a few. Incidentally the number one was Dachshunds. By comparison, I seldom saw German Shepherds around until a few years before I left. Rottweilers were another breed not commonly seen. 
Personally, as a child I was bitten by a cocker, a chow and a peke. Yet I was exposed most to GSD's, hounds and Dobe's. Never bitten by one.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

I was heard Ed Frawley say raising a high drive dog takes 4 times the work of raising a 2 year old. I don’t have kids so idk how true that is, but I would never leave my 10 month old gsd alone with kids - these dogs are bred to chase and bite people. I can’t imagine leaving my gsd alone with kids to givr me more reassurance that they are safer - i would feel the opposite. If one of the kids picked a ball and threw it to another kid - it could get dangerous. You could get a gsd with less drive, I don’t have much experience with that. I wouldn’t ever worry about my dog being malicious with kids - just stupid, and that could lead to someone getting hurt.

i would get a lab. A lab will stil alert bark if anything goes wrong. And you wouldn’t have to worry about the lab biting a kid thinking its all fun and games. Labs are awesome for kids.

also, depending on what you’re trying to protect the kids from, idk how well a dog will act as a baby sitter anyways. It would help protect against other animals and strangers but its not going to herd the kids or keep them from wandering off. Maybe the oldest kid can act as a babysitter type? Honestly to have a dog doing that sounds like something you’d see in a movie, idk how realistic it is


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I want to commend the OP for being so receptive and responsible in her decision making process.

A majority of posters have already gotten the dog and are freaked out with a 6 month old wild child GSD.

Refreshing


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Personally, as a child I was bitten by a cocker, a chow and a peke. Yet I was exposed most to GSD's, hounds and Dobe's. Never bitten by one.


I was bitten by a border collie and by my mother’s super mean Pekingese.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Apex1 said:


> I want to commend the OP for being so receptive and responsible in her decision making process.
> 
> A majority of posters have already gotten the dog and are freaked out with a 6 month old wild child GSD.
> 
> Refreshing


I was going to say the same thing, it is unusual and wonderful for someone to ask for advice here and actually take it, without getting all defensive and upset.


A story just popped into my head: my parents were staying with us for a little while, and Hans was in his crate. I believe he was about 6 months old. My mom thought it would be a good idea to let him out for a while, feeling sorry for him because he was “in that box.”
Out he came, like an electric stapler, chomp-chomping at her, and of course she got startled and screamed and that amped him up even more.
It was a disaster.
Luckily I was home and I came running and got the situation under control, asking my mom what on earth she was thinking. She said, “Well, I thought he was a normal puppy, I never expected such a thing! No wonder those dogs are for the police and for the military! Why do you even own such a dog?”

Why, indeed. 😁
And this was my mom, not a little kid.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Buckelke said:


> Having been raised with my Ceasar, I do not see what the concerns are. The dog does not know he is not a child and plays right along with them. In all these years, with all the dogs that have passed through my life I have never been bitten. I believe it is necessary to teach the CHILDREN how to behave around the dog. Teach the child not to pull the dog's tail. Teach the child not to hit the dog. German Shepherds in particular pick one person and that is THEIR person. It is usually a child, no idea why. I would definitely suggest raising a dog with the children although I would advise against expecting your dog to raise your children for you. I would also note that life is what happens while you are making plans. This is me, my Aunt and my Ceasar. We won't discuss the year. My dad bought him when I was born.
> View attachment 585603


My grandparents had GSDs with my mom and uncle growing up. The original response to my post was similarly encouraging and showed good rapport between children and the dog. Maybe it's a case of they don't make them like they used to?


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> I was going to say the same thing, it is unusual and wonderful for someone to ask for advice here and actually take it, without getting all defensive and upset.


I'm glad to have been a source of refreshment.  Thank you in turn for your kind words.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> My grandparents had GSDs with my mom and uncle growing up. The original response to my post was similarly encouraging and showed good rapport between children and the dog. Maybe it's a case of they don't make them like they used to?


I think it’s a case of the people who grew up with them not knowing what the adults did to train the dogs😃


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

I should add this, since I mentioned one friend's dog, and her stable temperament. Around 3rd grade, I had another friend with a GSD. While I was at their house, his Mom called him in to do some chore, or finish up some homework, or something. I stayed in the backyard and played with the dog. I ran, thinking we'd play chase. He nipped me on the back. Nipped, not mauled, and this was a strong male dog. But I learned a lesson about playing chase with him, even if I didn't know prey drive from what-not back then. Different dog, could have been much wore for me. I was not part of his pack, where with the previously described dog, I had been around it a fair amount since it came to their home as a puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't have any kids, but these are some of my puppies and they seem to be doing good with their kids. Actually, that first picture is me with a pup I bought who was about a year old at the time of the picture. The child is not mine. But that is what I expect out of GSDs. I expect the dogs to be good with children. And generally, the ones I have had or have placed have been.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> also, depending on what you’re trying to protect the kids from, idk how well a dog will act as a baby sitter anyways. It would help protect against other animals and strangers but its not going to herd the kids or keep them from wandering off. Maybe the oldest kid can act as a babysitter type? Honestly to have a dog doing that sounds like something you’d see in a movie, idk how realistic it is


To be clear guys, I don't expect the dog to be a babysitter 😂. I do expect it to fulfill breed characteristics and alert at strangers approaching our backyard. But it seems like they're just additional liabilities to children and I need to look at a different breed.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

A lab could probably work and they will bark usually if someone comes on the property.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I most definitely send my kids (7 & 9) out in the woods and expect my GSD to stay with them. It is somethings I have purposely trained him to do. He trails around with them in our acre lot and the 7 acre empty, wooded lot beside us. I know he will alert bark and most likely chase off anything trying to hurt them, human or otherwise. I can see them the whole time and wouldn’t leave them unmonitored outside for long, mostly because I don’t fully trust him to not be distracted by deer. So if that’s what you are looking for, a GSD can do it…eventually and if you have the right dog to start with. Selecting that right dog from the beginning can be very difficult. 

My dog is 2.5 years old and not a finished dog yet. It has been a tremendous amount of work and I still have a lot of work to do. He has a very active life with several training areas we pursue together. So, personally I couldn’t imagine doing it with a baby. My kids were 5 and 7 when he came to us as a puppy and they were also taught to fully respect our dog.

I would think to also look at a Great Pyrenees and Newfoundland. I think they are gentler livestock guardian dogs and would also fit this need. It seems like you are looking for tending style herding.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

LateAthenian said:


> To be clear guys, I don't expect the dog to be a babysitter 😂. I do expect it to fulfill breed characteristics and alert at strangers approaching our backyard. But it seems like they're just additional liabilities to children and I need to look at a different breed.


not side track too much but the other day i saw a little robot delivering stuff, it looked like a big cooler on wheels going down the sidewalk. They need some thing like the for kids where all the kids have a phone connected to the robot and if anyone who isn’t connected gets close the robot sounds off and same thing if the kid wanders off


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

A GSD can make a wonder family dog that will be a deterent to anyone thinking of messing with the kids. 

HOWEVER, this requires getting a dog with right temperment and training it. 

In addition to taking care of 3 kids, growing to 6 kids are you going to be able to devote 2 hours a day, every day to bonding, training physical and mental exercise For the entire life of the GSD? Will other adults in the house follow through and help with training?

Yes a puppy can be a nippy little land shark, all lovey and licking you one second, then sinking teeth in the next. Any children below teenagers will need very close supervision and the pup under adult control until 6 or so months of age. 

A GSD is not a dog that can be let out in a yard, even a very big and consider that enough physical and mental exercise.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

LateAthenian said:


> To be clear guys, I don't expect the dog to be a babysitter 😂. I do expect it to fulfill breed characteristics and alert at strangers approaching our backyard. But it seems like they're just additional liabilities to children and I need to look at a different breed.


You could get a gsd and kennel it outside. Once it learns to chill in the kennel while the kids were out, it would certainly alert bark to any strangers, and then tthe liability would greatly reduced and you’d get some security


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

Sonny1984 said:


> You could get a gsd and kennel it outside. Once it learns to chill in the kennel while the kids were out, it would certainly alert bark to any strangers, and then tthe liability would greatly reduced and you’d get some security


That doesn’t sound fair to the dog. Also, at that point you could just get an electronic sensor for the yard gate that would buzz when the gate opens.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The author of the below quote was someone else. I didn’t write that.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i think that the people who have the most success with german shepherds and young or large families are those that have prior experience with the breed, ample time to train, and confidence in their ability to read dogs. of course there are outliers. i personally would not consider any other breed. you can always find one or two or three horror stories with any breed, but the truth is, many gsd are wonderful family dogs. i almost specified _well bred _because that’s what we should always strive towards, but at the same time, every single one of my rescues have been great with babies and kids….but i didn’t go into it preloaded with the amount of concerns, reservations and hesitations that you already have. i feel like in the back of your mind, you’d always be at risk of looking for something. just my opinion of course. i adopted great dogs, expected them to be great and they’ve all been great. only 1 was known to have been raised with children. average, common sense type management around friends kids, but with my nieces and nephew, i would absolutely send them out into the yard with them with zero fears of aggression and a reasonable understanding about the potential of an accident. that said… haven’t have any accidents in over 20yrs either.

so i guess my concerns are 1. time and commitment to train the pup into the dog you desire, and 2. the ability to give the dog a fair, unbiased chance. if due diligence is done on the front end when making your dog selection…. aggression towards children would not be a concern of mine.

still…. i fully support your decision to wait or select a different breed.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

you know, I've been thinking (oh dear) and I remember when I was a kid another Aunt had collies. They followed us kids everywhere and did everything we did without any difficulties. Very easy going. The one I remember most was a large black one named Sultan, he was always glued to the kid pack. Might a collie be a better choice? https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/collie/


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> View attachment 585624
> 
> 
> View attachment 585625
> ...


But...these dogs were supervised; most likely by an adult who took the picture. By the way, if finances are an issue, think about that most GSD cost a lot, not just the purchase of a good pup but maintaining its health. No matter how much testing has been done on the parent dogs, there are a lot of health issues in the breed that can pop up unexpectedly. OP, if you are concerned that your kids could be kidnapped, a determined criminal has its way to neutralize a dog. Another thought could be to have the dog fenced away from the kids if alerting is your first concern. And.. they are generally not the best choice for inexperienced owners. Just some random thoughts.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

drparker151 said:


> A GSD can make a wonder family dog that will be a deterent to anyone thinking of messing with the kids.
> 
> HOWEVER, this requires getting a dog with right temperment and training it.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am mostly interested in the deterrent factor, and the dog's vigilance/stranger alerts. I absolutely do not have 2 hours a day to devote to a dog but I do question if that much time is strictly necessary to produce a well-adjusted pet, as I don't think hardly anyone's dog gets that kind of investment (as much as I would like to give it). I respect your points about this breed's higher mental and physical needs in general though.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Buckelke said:


> you know, I've been thinking (oh dear) and I remember when I was a kid another Aunt had collies. They followed us kids everywhere and did everything we did without any difficulties. Very easy going. The one I remember most was a large black one named Sultan, he was always glued to the kid pack. Might a collie be a better choice? https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/collie/





Sunflowers said:


> The author of the below quote was someone else. I didn’t write that.
> View attachment 585628


My bad! I'm just a newb forum user.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

CeraDean said:


> I most definitely send my kids (7 & 9) out in the woods and expect my GSD to stay with them. It is somethings I have purposely trained him to do. He trails around with them in our acre lot and the 7 acre empty, wooded lot beside us. I know he will alert bark and most likely chase off anything trying to hurt them, human or otherwise. I can see them the whole time and wouldn’t leave them unmonitored outside for long, mostly because I don’t fully trust him to not be distracted by deer. So if that’s what you are looking for, a GSD can do it…eventually and if you have the right dog to start with. Selecting that right dog from the beginning can be very difficult.
> 
> My dog is 2.5 years old and not a finished dog yet. It has been a tremendous amount of work and I still have a lot of work to do. He has a very active life with several training areas we pursue together. So, personally I couldn’t imagine doing it with a baby. My kids were 5 and 7 when he came to us as a puppy and they were also taught to fully respect our dog.
> 
> I would think to also look at a Great Pyrenees and Newfoundland. I think they are gentler livestock guardian dogs and would also fit this need. It seems like you are looking for tending style herding.


Yea, I definitely agree it would be better to have a dog like this with less on my shoulders. I just also don't want to wait for 20 years. But it's a serious and weighty decision, and I respect how much you and other posters put into their dogs and it really makes me think.


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## pippin21 (Dec 29, 2021)

My pup is pretty low drive and pretty much a golden retriever when it comes to guests but even then I wouldn't trust her to be left alone with kids younger than probably 8. She's almost 6 months and her nipping and biting has come down a lot but it will be probably another 2 years of consistent training before I'm 100%.

I've been playing with her before running around with her and she's jumped up at me trying to mouth/hold onto my arm, it was completely play but to a kid that could've hurt bad. These are dogs, they play like dogs and every dog is different. If in your situation you are unable to give your full attention to this puppy to make it understand what is ok and what is not and shape it into the dog you want then it would be a mistake getting one.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> Yea, I definitely agree it would be better to have a dog like this with less on my shoulders. I just also don't want to wait for 20 years. But it's a serious and weighty decision, and I respect how much you and other posters put into their dogs and it really makes me think.


Kids are incredibly hard to raise, but when they’re in their late teens, you sure do feel not needed.
That’s when I added a GSD puppy. Helped a lot with that 😁
I would get an easier dog now, and get the GSD at the inevitable time when your job becomes to leave your children be.

Also, this thread will give some insight:









Im scared of him (honest post)


You probably all seen my other post on Rex’s biting jumping etc and it’s my fault I know thankfully we are correcting it now but it’s going to take lots of work.. he LOVES his tug toy I think a bit to much.. he’s nuts about it.. anyways so it’s got to the point where he is only biting ME no one...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Fodder said:


> i think that the people who have the most success with german shepherds and young or large families are those that have prior experience with the breed, ample time to train, and confidence in their ability to read dogs. of course there are outliers. i personally would not consider any other breed. you can always find one or two or three horror stories with any breed, but the truth is, many gsd are wonderful family dogs. i almost specified _well bred _because that’s what we should always strive towards, but at the same time, every single one of my rescues have been great with babies and kids….but i didn’t go into it preloaded with the amount of concerns, reservations and hesitations that you already have. i feel like in the back of you’re mind, you’d always be at risk of looking for something. just my opinion of course. i adopted great dogs, expected them to be great and they’ve all been great. only 1 was known to have been raised with children. average, common sense type management around friends kids, but with my nieces and nephew, i would absolutely send them out into the yard with them with zero fears of aggression and a reasonable understanding about the potential of an accident. that said… haven’t have any accidents in over 20yrs either.
> 
> so i guess my concerns are 1. time and commitment to train the pup into the dog you desire, and 2. the ability to give the dog a fair, unbiased chance. if due diligence is done on the front end when making your dog selection…. aggression towards children would not be a concern of mine.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the tempered encouragement. I am risk averse by nature and gifted/cursed with an unusual ability to envision the worst case scenario. I also was attacked by a pit bull family pet as a child, and I think that is always in the back of my mind when it comes to buying a family dog that has a capacity for violence. But I have to tell ya, I am so struck by the beauty of this breed and I miss my Catahoula for her loyalty. So you're right it would be in the back of my mind, but maybe if I got the right dog, I would grow out of that and learn to trust the dog eventually. That's a pretty long haired shepherd you have. I really like the long coats! 
My pickiness I was describing in my original post was about temperament. I don't expect the dog to have magical powers or something but I do need to know that I'm working with a rock solid temperament. I don't agree with people who say that you have to train a dog so it doesn't turn on someone violently- no, that's just a bad dog. Train them to not have accidents, yes, agree completely.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

LateAthenian said:


> @ksotto333 Thank you so much for your reply and for including those nice pictures of your family and dogs. The one of your toddler grandchild getting a lick - too cute! This is what I am looking for - gentle but watchful. May I ask where you obtained your dogs? I'm in VA.


I'll pm you.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LateAthenian said:


> Thank you for the tempered encouragement. I am risk averse by nature and gifted/cursed with an unusual ability to envision the worst case scenario. I also was attacked by a pit bull family pet as a child, and I think that is always in the back of my mind when it comes to buying a family dog that has a capacity for violence. But I have to tell ya, I am so struck by the beauty of this breed and I miss my Catahoula for her loyalty. So you're right it would be in the back of my mind, but maybe if I got the right dog, I would grow out of that and learn to trust the dog eventually. That's a pretty long haired shepherd you have. I really like the long coats!
> My pickiness I was describing in my original post was about temperament. I don't expect the dog to have magical powers or something but I do need to know that I'm working with a rock solid temperament. I don't agree with people who say that you have to train a dog so it doesn't turn on someone violently- no, that's just a bad dog. Train them to not have accidents, yes, agree completely.


i’m right there with you…
but a dog that is frustrated, not getting its needs met, is under socialized or mishandled, can develop behaviors that mimic aggression to an inexperienced eye. the first 2yrs can be rough if you don’t account for these things.

if you really like the breed…. put yourself out there. meet some, have your kids meet and interact with some! breeders, rescues, other families, a variety of ages, lines, temperaments, energy levels, etc.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LateAthenian said:


> I absolutely do not have 2 hours a day to devote to a dog but I do question if that much time is strictly necessary to produce a well-adjusted pet, as I don't think hardly anyone's dog gets that kind of investment


Almost any dog is going to require at least that. My dog is over 11 years old and I spend more time then that just walking her. 
With kids around you will need to devote at a bare minimum that amount of time to training for at least the first year. Unless you are planning on dropping the coin on a trained adult. And those don't come cheap. Even at that it will need regular and ongoing training maintenance and daily exercise, not chasing the kids around.
I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just realistic. I raised puppies with kids.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> I absolutely do not have 2 hours a day to devote to a dog but I do question if that much time is strictly necessary to produce a well-adjusted pet, as I don't think hardly anyone's dog gets that kind of investment (as much as I would like to give it).


I speak for myself, 2 hours is a minimum. 
Many members here wake up early to give their dogs what they need. An unexercised GSD can quickly become a nightmare.
Of course there are exceptions here.
Some have seniors, who don’t need as much anymore. But if you get a GSD, you do need to carve time out of your day.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> *We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed.* I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


Among other dogs on the farm, I had 2 male and a female Catahoula dog together. I don't know about more serious (these three had very different personalities) and that's the point; there are soft pliable biddable/compliant GSD and also hard, knucklehead, challenging GSD....and that's within the same litter.

Subsequently I have had 4 female GSD and now two males together and have had them at all ages with children 0-20 and now my first grandchildren. And yes, if the kids were playing in the yard (unfenced!), I wouldn't say we purposely left the dog to babysit them but she sure was out there. Different times I suppose and we don't have direct neighbors.

I would trust my current dogs with my life and my kids as well. But yes, it takes and hour and a half a day minimum for the first year to end up with a bullet proof dog; this is not a breed that can be 80% great if virtually left to it's own devices.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LateAthenian said:


> I absolutely do not have 2 hours a day to devote to a dog but I do question if that much time is strictly necessary to produce a well-adjusted pet, as I don't think hardly anyone's dog gets that kind of investment (as much as I would like to give it).


For what it’s worth, all but 1 of mine have… most days, at least until age 2 and it was still very much appreciated thereafter. My current dog (gsd x mal x acd) finally gives me the flexibility to get him out for 10 minutes or go for 10 miles….. he’s 9, LOL


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> Kids are incredibly hard to raise, but when they’re in their late teens, you sure do feel not needed.
> That’s when I added a GSD puppy. Helped a lot with that 😁
> I would get an easier dog now, and get the GSD at the inevitable time when your job becomes to leave your children be.
> 
> ...


Oh goodness, I'm so scared of their teen years. I am so convicted of all my mistakes raising them already. But I think you are right about that being a good time to get my "Ferrari dog"! Before I had kids, my hobby was hiking with my Catahoula, equestrian sport, running and soccer. Now I'm lucky if I get a few runs in a week. It's all worthwhile, but I can see their teen years definitely being a time when I need "something else" again. I think I am looking for my "something else" now too, but it's hard to find out what that is for this season of life.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

pippin21 said:


> My pup is pretty low drive and pretty much a golden retriever when it comes to guests but even then I wouldn't trust her to be left alone with kids younger than probably 8. She's almost 6 months and her nipping and biting has come down a lot but it will be probably another 2 years of consistent training before I'm 100%.
> 
> I've been playing with her before running around with her and she's jumped up at me trying to mouth/hold onto my arm, it was completely play but to a kid that could've hurt bad. These are dogs, they play like dogs and every dog is different. If in your situation you are unable to give your full attention to this puppy to make it understand what is ok and what is not and shape it into the dog you want then it would be a mistake getting one.


This is an illustrative comment, thank you. It sounds like the kids will like this kind of dog more when they are teenagers. I don't think I want to have to be hyper vigilant like that for two years... on my own it would be a no brainer but of course my kids come first.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

I have gotten some really excellent advice here, thank you so much everyone for your replies and insight. I feel pretty at peace with the decision to wait on this dream.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

In my experience, the teen years are great!!!! Don't be scared of them.

We've 5 children, all adult now. We started fostering dog and puppies when our oldest was around 9 or10, ages of the younger children approximately 8, 6, 4 and under 1. We got our first german shepherd when my youngest was 3. She was 18 months old when we got her, she ended up being an exceptionally awesome dog. She was on death row when we brought her home to train her, we kept her. 5 years after her death friends would talk about her.

Why it worked so well, I guess, was she was almost out of the puppy stage. My hobby at the time was training her. I didn't have a baby, so I wasn't sleep deprived, which is an important factor.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Like a GSD, teens need to stay in school, in sports and have a job. Then you can afford to let them deal with the consequences of their behaviors in a calm way. That's how we raised our kids and we all laugh about memories of that time, including them. But to be fair, we also pulled our hair once in a while like you would do with an adolescent GSD and I did too. My success story with my GSD came after they all had left home (we had Whippets when the kids were young). Your time for a GSD wil come as well. It is so worth the wait. For now enjoy the kids and the babies because that time goes way too fast. I am happy you came to the forum and took us seriously.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

FWIW my kids are way easier then my dogs lol


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Like a GSD, teens need to stay in school, in sports and have a job. Then you can afford to let them deal with the consequences of their behaviors in a calm way. That's how we raised our kids and we all laugh about memories of that time, including them. But to be fair, we also pulled our hair once in a while like you would do with an adolescent GSD and I did too. My success story with my GSD came after they all had left home (we had Whippets when the kids were young). Your time for a GSD wil come as well. It is so worth the wait. For now enjoy the kids and the babies because that time goes way too fast. I am happy you came to the forum and took us seriously.


Yep, that's what we did, you nailed it! Dealing with the consequences of their behaviors in a calm way when teaching them to drive was what challenged me most. I wasn't always successful.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Ha, ha that driving. I was always kinda suspicious and nervous when they left with my SUV that had my logo on it. They knew they were marketing my dog training.


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

So, to summarize - get a robot nanny for the kids for now and keeping reading this message board. In 15 years, you won’t be ready per se, but at least you’ll have a good head start.


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Charlie loves children, especially my 11 y/o niece, although I think he prefers me over all, LOL, if im not with them, he's usually just too busy looking for me. Considering he didn't even see a child up close until he was 8 months (quarantine, ugh), hes wonderful, he was a little fearful of them at first, but he's calm and fairly well mannered now, just a little goofy sometimes, got lucky with the fact he loves to snuggle.



















but, I was home all the time with Charlie and didn't have any kids to look after! reading now, from the sound of it, you don't have much time for a puppy, much less a GSD! I'd slow down and focus on the kids for a little, maybe get a calm lap dog if you want a companion.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

@WNGD _"Among other dogs on the farm, I had 2 male and a female Catahoula dog together. I don't know about more serious (these three had very different personalities) and that's the point; there are soft pliable biddable/compliant GSD and also hard, knucklehead, challenging GSD....and that's within the same litter. "_

This and This... I got the knucklehead.. supervised with calm kids I'd never worry! Unsupervised or with kids being kids and having fun he'd require a lot of supervision and management. He just isn't that dog, he'd fail miserably in the environment described in this post... Friends of mine have his brother (same litter) in a house with kids and he was a nightmare for them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd go for a well bred female English Mastiff. They are very loyal family dogs. No over the top prey responses to kids running. Nice, intimidating bark. Low exercise requirements. Easy going nature with neighborhood kids.

We had 2 well my kids were young (2 and 4) and they were easy dogs to live with. They would alert bark if the kids opened the gate to leave the yard. They were great at just hanging out, watching the world go by with just a little play time once a day.

They can be a bit "bull in a China shop" when they are young, but kids bounce pretty well 

I wouldn't recommend a GSD considering your time constraints and inexperience. My dog is great with kids, and regularly roams the woods off leash with the older grandkids, but it was a lot of work, with the dog and the kids, to get to that point. I've seen a lot of young GSDs that will flatten a kid, bite them relentlessly when the kids are trying to play, resource guard toys and food stolen from the kids. It can be bad without the right dog , training and a satisfying exercise plan.


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## Anabelle McMann (Jul 26, 2021)

Molly loves kids. Wherever they are she loves to be. When we are at the playground, I can even let her off the leash (not with stranger's kids, of course) and she'll stay right with the kids. She doesn't even show any signs of herding; she really is the sweetest girl. Here are some pics of her.
















Here is my grandmother's long since passed GSD. He was great with kids!


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Dunkirk said:


> Why it worked so well, I guess, was she was almost out of the puppy stage. My hobby at the time was training her. I didn't have a baby, so I wasn't sleep deprived, which is an important factor.


Truth. I'm hoping I won't get another sleeper like our first. Wow, we barely made it. I was in the car at 3am sometimes just to get her to go back to sleep... 😵 She woke up 4-5x a night for two years. Yep. We are never going to let her live it down. Our new baby (and first boy, here he is ) is so mellow. He sleeps well for a baby, but still, every day around 2pm it all catches up to me.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Like a GSD, teens need to stay in school, in sports and have a job. Then you can afford to let them deal with the consequences of their behaviors in a calm way. That's how we raised our kids and we all laugh about memories of that time, including them. But to be fair, we also pulled our hair once in a while like you would do with an adolescent GSD and I did too. My success story with my GSD came after they all had left home (we had Whippets when the kids were young). Your time for a GSD wil come as well. It is so worth the wait. For now enjoy the kids and the babies because that time goes way too fast. I am happy you came to the forum and took us seriously.


Thank you for the encouragement. Yea, everyone says that it all goes by so fast... for me, it felt like such a slog for a long time (mind, my first basically didn't sleep), and now I really see how fast it goes. Suddenly, she's almost 6. You never get time back, and our time is best spent with them.
My husband's friend growing up had Whippets, he liked them. I stayed out of trouble in high school through my involvement with horses. I worked at an Arabian horse farm. Talk about another high maintenance breed! 
I am happy I came to the forum too, and I appreciate you all's support.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> I'd go for a well bred female English Mastiff. They are very loyal family dogs. No over the top prey responses to kids running. Nice, intimidating bark. Low exercise requirements. Easy going nature with neighborhood kids.
> 
> We had 2 well my kids were young (2 and 4) and they were easy dogs to live with. They would alert bark if the kids opened the gate to leave the yard. They were great at just hanging out, watching the world go by with just a little play time once a day.
> 
> ...


The sheer size of mastiffs makes me a little nervous, but your first hand account of your success with them and their ease of ownership is reassuring. I know English mastiffs are the most gentle. My friend has a Neapolitan/English mastiff cross, the thing's face is ugly as sin but he's always been good with their kids (they are an expanding family as well). Probably their size is one of their primary sources of confidence with children. A stable mastiff would fit the bill for the deterrent factor. I don't think anyone would approach a yard with a mastiff in it. Are they hard to train/stubborn?

I appreciate the no nonsense advice. I don't want my children to have to walk on eggshells with a young GSD, and it would be a negative environment for the young dog too to be subject constantly to reprimand. Resource guarding is of course my worst fear with having little kids, who no matter how many times they're told, still think dogs think like people.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, if you ever get a chance or time (!), visit a dog show and talk to breeders, see the dogs and get a feel.


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## RockyMtn07 (10 mo ago)

I’m fairly new to GSD ownership, but wanted to share my brief experience and thoughts. For context I have a 2 year old collie and a 4 month old WLGSD. I am also a SAHM of 4 kids, ages 2,4,10,&12. The collie actually draws attention. Everybody and their mom wants to pet the “Lassie dog”. Does she bark, yes, at EVERYTHING. She’s the definition of “cry wolf”. However, she’s perfect in just about every other way. She’s kind, gentle, and so very tolerant of the kids. So far my GSD pup is great with the older kids. He genuinely doesn’t care about the younger two. As a pup the collie was incessant about herding the kids. With lots and lots of training and management and then also maturity that ended. The GSD pup hasn’t shown much interest in herding the kids yet. I think once you find a rhythm things go fairly smoothly. I do spend a lot of time training the dogs, but I genuinely love spending time with them so it’s a stress relief for me. Between kids and dogs I have zero time for anything else. If my 2 year old were any younger I don’t think I’d have gotten the GSD. Not because he’s a GSD, but because I’ve had puppies and babies at the same time twice before and consider that it’s own special purgatory. You’ve had lots of great breed recommendations already so I’m not going to give any of those, but I will say that personally I wouldn’t leave any dog of any breed alone with kids ever. Things can go wrong so very quickly.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

LateAthenian said:


> The sheer size of mastiffs makes me a little nervous, but your first hand account of your success with them and their ease of ownership is reassuring. I know English mastiffs are the most gentle. My friend has a Neapolitan/English mastiff cross, the thing's face is ugly as sin but he's always been good with their kids (they are an expanding family as well). Probably their size is one of their primary sources of confidence with children. A stable mastiff would fit the bill for the deterrent factor. I don't think anyone would approach a yard with a mastiff in it. Are they hard to train/stubborn?
> 
> I appreciate the no nonsense advice. I don't want my children to have to walk on eggshells with a young GSD, and it would be a negative environment for the young dog too to be subject constantly to reprimand. Resource guarding is of course my worst fear with having little kids, who no matter how many times they're told, still think dogs think like people.


I had a girlfriend with a very large male Mastiff. Just too big/solid/heavy/unathletic and couldn't hike for it's life. I loved to mess around with him but would never fit my lifestyle. And he'd fill a whole towel every time he lifted his head from the water bowl. And the drool .....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Both my female Mastiff dogs were more than able and willing to adventure with me. It's a different kind of adventure than with a GSD. Lots of plodding and sniffing with the occasional 30 second burst of exuberance. They were fit dogs with plenty of exercise and careful diet.

They are easy to train as far as pet OB goes. Never needed any correction collar. Used food and praise. They weren't competing obedience dogs but neither needed a leash to go on a walk through the neighborhood.

The youngest went to college with my oldest son and lived happily in the house they rented with 5 other college kids. She used to hang out in the back yard during parties. Never an issue, but she would raise the alarm if someone came into the porch.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I should clarify "couldn't hike for his life"
He's do a 45 minute walk, wasn't exactly sedentary, just couldn't hike the way I do over/under/around everything up/down the hills or keep up with my female GSD. She would be running back and forth 5X for every 100 yards we went


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whatever you decide, especially with small children around, go to a reputable breeder or a good foster based rescue. The members of this forum have incredible reach and vast knowledge of breeds well beyond this one. Don't be afraid to reach out!


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> good foster based rescue


This could be a great option done correctly. Skipping the puppy stuff. I adopted an 11 month old he is a great dog. Knew exactly what I was getting.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> Truth. I'm hoping I won't get another sleeper like our first. Wow, we barely made it. I was in the car at 3am sometimes just to get her to go back to sleep... 😵 She woke up 4-5x a night for two years. Yep. We are never going to let her live it down. Our new baby (and first boy, here he is ) is so mellow. He sleeps well for a baby, but still, every day around 2pm it all catches up to me.
> View attachment 585647


Congratulations! Oh, what a sweet angel.
I had one of those non-sleepers. Up every hour and a half, every night. I asked myself what I had done to my life, LOL.
It’s fun to remind him of that now. He hasn’t changed, still always hungry, but at least now he can feed himself 😁


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ah… check out this thread 😁



https://www.germanshepherds.com/threads/hobbies-you-havent-touched-after-getting-a-gsd-and-how-much-its-worth-it.771988/


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

We used to look after guide dog in training who needed a holiday. It was good practice for them living with 5 children, and they were nice well trained dogs. One went back having learnt how to play statues from being with the kids in the yard.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had waited till the kids were older around 10-12 I opted for a different breed when they kids were younger the biggest reason time And my focus. I was also concerned about getting the wrong dog. The dog we did get was the dog we needed at the time. She was really perfect. I feel guilty she got part of my attention not like the dogs do now. She really was a gem and made all our lives better.
The two gsds I have now are great with my kids , great with all my young nephew from babies and up. I have an autistic 11 year old nephew who is living in with us and my sister and the dogs are phenomenal with him. I take the dogs to work I really can’t ask for anything better. One dog wants to sleep next to me at the next and one prefers to sleep in her open crate. They really roll with all of it. One dog had required more time training wise in the adolescent stages. Luna has been a saint out of the box she a great dog for any first time family in any scenario. She really is such a easy going dog. I really like the combo of the two. Glad to be able to focus on dogs again and the family combined. They are work though but when you have the the time it’s enjoyable.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, if you ever get a chance or time (!), visit a dog show and talk to breeders, see the dogs and get a feel.


I would like to! My husband and I went to an Arabian horse show in Scottsdale, AZ a few years ago and along with the horses, there was a K9 exhibition. The company trained Belgian Malinois, which is too intense for me, but it was amazing to see what they were capable of. I have shown Arabians in halter. I like working with animals and to see how excellent they can be.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

RockyMtn07 said:


> I’m fairly new to GSD ownership, but wanted to share my brief experience and thoughts. For context I have a 2 year old collie and a 4 month old WLGSD. I am also a SAHM of 4 kids, ages 2,4,10,&12. The collie actually draws attention. Everybody and their mom wants to pet the “Lassie dog”. Does she bark, yes, at EVERYTHING. She’s the definition of “cry wolf”. However, she’s perfect in just about every other way. She’s kind, gentle, and so very tolerant of the kids. So far my GSD pup is great with the older kids. He genuinely doesn’t care about the younger two. As a pup the collie was incessant about herding the kids. With lots and lots of training and management and then also maturity that ended. The GSD pup hasn’t shown much interest in herding the kids yet. I think once you find a rhythm things go fairly smoothly. I do spend a lot of time training the dogs, but I genuinely love spending time with them so it’s a stress relief for me. Between kids and dogs I have zero time for anything else. If my 2 year old were any younger I don’t think I’d have gotten the GSD. Not because he’s a GSD, but because I’ve had puppies and babies at the same time twice before and consider that it’s own special purgatory. You’ve had lots of great breed recommendations already so I’m not going to give any of those, but I will say that personally I wouldn’t leave any dog of any breed alone with kids ever. Things can go wrong so very quickly.


Thank you for this insight about what it's like to own a collie and a WLGSD. Are the WLGSDs less likely to herd? The collie's temperament with children sounds great, but the barking might drive me nuts. On the other hand, I want a barker, don't I?! I was reading about them since @wolfy dog recommended them and it does say that they can be vocal. They definitely have The Pretty Factor, which as someone pointed out above, cannot exactly be said of the mastiffs . Do you find that she is content being out in the yard, that she likes to hang out and watch what's going on? The problem with our poodle is that he just wants to be in the house.

Our poodle is pretty easy to live with overall but prone to separation anxiety and excessive barking in certain circumstances. Standard poodles are so easy to to train it almost feels like cheating, so my confidence is not established with a true working breed. It's a toss-up whether he will go in the yard with the kids or try to hang out on the patio to get back in the house (though he can be commanded off the patio, his memory is a bit short). I suspect he has some miniature poodle in his line somewhere, as I know some breeders grafted the miniature poodle lines into the standard lines to produce the red color. I do trust him in the yard with the kids. A more serious breed gives me pause in that regard though. My whole concern revolves around them being in the yard without direct supervision, which is impossible for me to do as much as they want to be outside. I leave the screen door open and keep an ear out 100% of the time (auditory supervision), but I can't get my eyes on 75% of the range of angles where they play (visual supervision) from my vantage point in the kitchen (where I do most of my work), and that bothers me a lot. There is an alley behind the house and a lot of thru traffic on the streets, so I do think it is a security issue. Probably need to install cameras, but bad guys aren't deterred by cameras they can't see.

What is the concern with leaving a dog in the yard with kids? Not leave like shut the doors and ignore everyone outside for hours leave, but like leave while you are listening out and a few steps away leave? Accidental injuries? I would never buy a dog I thought capable of viciousness, but is the concern vicious behavior towards children? The kids get a fair amount of accidental knocks on their own and once in a while the poodle does something that hurts their feelings, but I don't consider their proximity dangerous.

Pic of the pipsqueak for fun.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Whatever you decide, especially with small children around, go to a reputable breeder or a good foster based rescue. The members of this forum have incredible reach and vast knowledge of breeds well beyond this one. Don't be afraid to reach out!


Thank you! It makes me feel more confident to have you all as a resource. We are not certain yet as to the breed and the timing of the addition, but discussions like this help us be more educated.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I was raised around high drive working dogs. I was never left unattended outside because my dad’s police dog’s kennel was out there and he wasn’t very friendly. That said, my dad knows how to handle dogs and taught them from the time I was brought home that they were to behave and be careful around me. I actually remember those dogs still and how patient they were with me, especially after I started walking and leading them around the house (with supervision of course). With proper training, it can work.


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## 2020palm (May 30, 2020)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


I had a DDR GS so my experience might be different. I’ve also owned very protective standard poodles. Our GS I would not allow to be with our then 3 year old because the squeaky high pitched noises toddlers make would really trigger her prep drive. She was not raised as a puppy with a baby so that might change things. We wouldn’t let her out with him until he was over four and knew he had to behave more calmly around her. Just my experience and each dog is different but I would not have a DDR GS with very young children.


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## AZdoglover (Oct 11, 2021)

I recently had a 45-minute phone conversation with Charles Miller, a long-time German Shepherd breeder near Tallahassee, FL. His YouTube channel is called "German Shepherd Man Official Channel". He does GREAT work; I've learned a lot from him. He and I talked on the phone a few days ago about this very subject.

Charles has been in the German Shepherd breeding business for 47 years. He said that during that time, his experience has taught him that while there is a chance for German Shepherds to be nippy with young children, the chance is not very high. He advised that you teach your young children that it's not acceptable to run around and yell in a German Shepherd puppy's/dog's presence. German Shepherds will eventually learn, when trained rightly, that the children in their family are there's to protect but not herd because the children are part of the dog's "pack".

Charles advised that if your German Shepherd begins to nip at children when chasing them, that you immediately step between the dog and the children, give the dog a quick verbal correction (such as "Uh-uh!") and give him a hard stare. He says that's one of the ways that one dog corrects another for inappropriate behavior.


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## Puppy grandma (Nov 3, 2020)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


You are perfect candidate for rescue. You would be shocked at how many GSD gems and you fast forward maturity you do not have time for. Reach out to your local rescues.


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## AZdoglover (Oct 11, 2021)

LateAthenian said:


> Mastiffs make me nervous. My friend's Great Pyrenees broke their daughter's arm (food aggression) and another friend of mine with a mastiff had a bite incident with her toddler. What draws me to GSDs is they seem to be more intelligent and discriminating than molossers, who are more the bruisers. Both are potentially violent though, it's true. Gosh, it's so hard trying to balance wanting to protect your kids from strangers with protecting them from their dog!


I feel your pain! There's a reason why more people lean towards the herding breeds than towards the larger mastiffs, pyrenees, and similar guarding breeds! If it wasn't for the lack of discernment that many herding breeds have to know what's acceptable to herd and what isn't, they'd be the perfect dogs, in my opinion. There are so many pros to herding breeds, especially in the protection department. They're smart enough to know who's a friend and who's a threat while being "humble" enough to be eager to please their owners. That balance is something you don't usually find in the larger guardian breeds or in the retriever breeds.

Check out the YouTube channel "German Shepherd Man Official Channel". After watching many of Charles Miller's videos there and talking to him personally on the phone, I can't recommend him enough. He's been in the German Shepherd breeding business for 47 years. He's a wealth of knowledge and he's all about helping people.

Charles is the one that Yahuah (Hebrew name for the Lord) used to give me renewed hope that I can have a German Shepherd around small children. You have to be willing to put the work in, but it's worth it! If it helps you any, since your situation sounds similar to mine, Charles recommended to me that I look for a West German show line German Shepherd.


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## AZdoglover (Oct 11, 2021)

Puppy grandma said:


> You are perfect candidate for rescue. You would be shocked at how many GSD gems and you fast forward maturity you do not have time for. Reach out to your local rescues.


Have you personally worked with German Shepherd rescues? I'm an animal rescue volunteer myself. I love the work that rescues do. I also love the work that responsible, ethical breeders do. Truly, I think both rescues and breeders are necessary. My biggest issue is that I want to* know what I'm getting.* Is it possible to know what you're getting when you adopt a rescue dog? It seems like you can if the dog lived in a foster home first. What is your opinion?


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## georgepat1930 (9 mo ago)

I’m not a breeder, just a pet owner, but those ”pets” have all been WG working line dogs. Their pack drive is incredible, and that’s what makes them such great family members. They nip and are mouthy when their adult teeth come in, but that lasts a month. A “soft mouth” is easily achieved with a little training. My grandchildren all love my dog, and she loves them. When the smaller ones play in a sandbox in the summer, Koko lays in the shade about 10 feet away, just quietly watching. If the kids get too rough with her (and this does happen), she just moves away. In fairness, all my dogs have been female, and I let them go through one heat, because I believe it helps set their maternal instincts. 

and dogs don’t just snap. If there is a behavior problem worthy of concern, you will know about it long before there is an incident. Based on over 30 years experience, I trust a stable GSD completely.


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## Doglady88 (Aug 22, 2020)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


We’ve had 6 German Shepherds. One before kids, and 5 more with kids. When I had my first child, we had a male and a female who were both about a year old. The male fell instantly in love with the baby, watched over him, sniffed and gave kisses. His temperament was rock solid and he never left my child’s side. He was the same with my other children. Our female was terrified of my first child at first, then totally indifferent. She was just indifferent to the others. While I don’t think she would’ve hurt my kids, I wouldn’t have felt safe leaving them alone together. Our male passed away and we now have another male and another female, in addition to the original female we still have. The new female is basically a lab in a German shepherd suit, just the sweetest girl who is crazy about the kids and the male is well tempered too, but could take them or leave them. My kids are 11 down to 6 in age. The kids have been taught how to treat dogs with respect. But all dogs are different and have their own personalities. Do you know what type of shepherd you want? Because the lines are very different. We have always had WGSL, which are lower drive dogs and I think this is the best line with kids, assuming you use a good breeder. There are also American SL, but I’d avoid them. They have no real breeding standards and are a mess as a result.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

I have owned GSD for over 55 years. My daughter was raised with them.Every one of the 6 GSD that we had were raised around kids . All but one was great with kids. The one dog that was not good with kids was the only GSD that had a horrible temperament. The good thing was my daughter was already grown when we got him.All of the other GSD bonded to my daughter and would protect her with their lifes.The reason I kept getting GSD was they are great with the family and will protect them. My daughter would be in the back yard with all her friends playing., Ranger our GSD dog was always out with them.my daughter would come in for a nap and some of her friends would keep playing. Ranger would stay out with them. If a adult came to the back yard, he would meet them at the gate. He would stand at the gate and growl at them . My wife or myself would have to go the the back door and tell him to leave it. Then they could come in and get their kid.He always was gentle with the kids. When one kid would start getting to rough with another kid Ranger would slip in between them and kind of give a little bump to the kid getting rough. He never hurt a kid. We lived in Detroit and the neighborhood could be pretty rough.All the kids on our block came down to our house to play with my daughter and Ranger.Kids could come in any time and walk out with anything and he was ok with that. If a adult tried to come in my house or yard with out my wife or myself they would have been in for a world of hurt.You must find a pup thats even tempered ,and not over active.By that I mean he's not bouncing off the walls with energy. If you raise it with kids and make it a very big part of the family, It will bond to the kids and take on the job of being your kids play mate and protector.I all my years of living with GSD I have found that I had to put a whole lot of work and training to get the dog that we wanted. It was worth all the work and time.If your serous about bring a GSD into your family you will be highly rewarded with a freind that will have your back and enrich your life.I can think of no other dog that would be better for a family.


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## AZdoglover (Oct 11, 2021)

gtaroger said:


> I have owned GSD for over 55 years. My daughter was raised with them.Every one of the 6 GSD that we had were raised around kids . All but one was great with kids. The one dog that was not good with kids was the only GSD that had a horrible temperament. The good thing was my daughter was already grown when we got him.All of the other GSD bonded to my daughter and would protect her with their lifes.The reason I kept getting GSD was they are great with the family and will protect them. My daughter would be in the back yard with all her friends playing., Ranger our GSD dog was always out with them.my daughter would come in for a nap and some of her friends would keep playing. Ranger would stay out with them. If a adult came to the back yard, he would meet them at the gate. He would stand at the gate and growl at them . My wife or myself would have to go the the back door and tell him to leave it. Then they could come in and get their kid.He always was gentle with the kids. When one kid would start getting to rough with another kid Ranger would slip in between them and kind of give a little bump to the kid getting rough. He never hurt a kid. We lived in Detroit and the neighborhood could be pretty rough.All the kids on our block came down to our house to play with my daughter and Ranger.Kids could come in any time and walk out with anything and he was ok with that. If a adult tried to come in my house or yard with out my wife or myself they would have been in for a world of hurt.You must find a pup thats even tempered ,and not over active.By that I mean he's not bouncing off the walls with energy. If you raise it with kids and make it a very big part of the family, It will bond to the kids and take on the job of being your kids play mate and protector.I all my years of living with GSD I have found that I had to put a whole lot of work and training to get the dog that we wanted. It was worth all the work and time.If your serous about bring a GSD into your family you will be highly rewarded with a freind that will have your back and enrich your life.I can think of no other dog that would be better for a family.


That's awesome! Thanks for sharing. I think even GSDs that aren't raised with babies can learn to adapt. I have neighbors who had a baby last year and they had their GSD for many years before the baby was born and I've not heard of the dog having any issues with the baby.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AZdoglover said:


> He advised that you teach your young children that it's not acceptable to run around and yell in a German Shepherd puppy's/dog's presence. German Shepherds will eventually learn, when trained rightly, that the children in their family are there's to protect but not herd because the children are part of the dog's "pack".


Sure, but the OP has an infant, an almost 4 year old, and an almost 6 year old. She is planning on having more children over the next 10 years, so even in a few years when the oldest kids can be more reliably expected to follow instructions on how to interact with dogs, there will likely be some younger kids who are not quite there yet, possibly several of them. Especially when they're not being directly supervised and you really don't know what they're doing to or with the dog. 

You can tell kids what to do and what not to do but unless you're right there observing, where you can intercede and correct a child if necessary, it just doesn't seem realistic to me. Kids will be kids, and dogs aren't robots. Too much unpredictability on both sides.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

For now, I would definitely stick with that poodle. 
Introducing a GSD pup to a resident dog is a job by itself, in addition to everything else a puppy requires.
You already have your hands full with that beautiful baby.


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## AZdoglover (Oct 11, 2021)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sure, but the OP has an infant, an almost 4 year old, and an almost 6 year old. She is planning on having more children over the next 10 years, so even in a few years when the oldest kids can be more reliably expected to follow instructions on how to interact with dogs, there will likely be some younger kids who are not quite there yet, possibly several of them. Especially when they're not being directly supervised and you really don't know what they're doing to or with the dog.
> 
> You can tell kids what to do and what not to do but unless you're right there observing, where you can intercede and correct a child if necessary, it just doesn't seem realistic to me. Kids will be kids, and dogs aren't robots. Too much unpredictability on both sides.


What about what Charles said about him seeing in his 47 years of GSD experience that GSDs, trained rightly, will eventually learn to not herd children and that the incidence rate of GSDs trying to nip at and herd small children is low?


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## Weikafei (Aug 1, 2021)

I know you've mentioned a friend hand a bad experience with a great pyr but I think if you found a well bred one with a breeder that understood your purpose you would be much better off with a livestock guardian like a pyr (other others.) I wouldn't dismiss the breed based on the one dog/story.

I have a pyr and a GSD. I don't have kids but have a 6 and 9 yr old neice and nephew and friends that have brought over toddlers. I have absolutely 0 concerns with my pyr, he's super tolerant/patient, does not chase, is athletic enough to walk along for distances (but he's not going to trot or run for long periods) and is mostly happy finding a spot to lay, watch and alert to even the slightest disturbance.

You should never trust kids and dogs with bones/food, let any dog have their space when it comes to that stuff.

I have a pretty mild 11mo GSD puppy (compared to what I've read here anyway lol) and I suspect if my niece and nephew started running around like crazy he would probably nip at them. When he was younger he just completely ignored them. I'll have to do a lot of work with him and them this spring/summer because he's gotten a lot bigger/more confident and they will want to run around, swim, etc. Kids just move erratically and for a higher drive breed it's difficult. Livestock guardians are bred not to have a prey drive.

My pyr is gentle, mild mannered, tolerant and very confident. I would talk to some solid pyr breeders and get their thoughts.

I love mastiffs but I like oversized, lazy, droopy faced dogs. If you don't like their overall size and look I get it. Hah Pyrs are beautiful dogs, not as big as a mastiff or newfie and probably just athletic enough for kids to enjoy without getting overestimated.

My pyr wins over everyone (even if "I don't like big dogs at all" people lol) but when strangers (or anyone) approaches my driveway or yard, he definitely let's me know. And, strangers pause because he's a 110lb dog with a deep bark.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

AZdoglover said:


> What about what Charles said about him seeing in his 47 years of GSD experience that GSDs, trained rightly, will eventually learn to not herd children and that the incidence rate of GSDs trying to nip at and herd small children is low?


What is your aim here?
OP said she doesn’t have the time required to train a GSD, and has decided to wait.
No one here has said you can’t train a GSD to behave around children, But the key word is train. And that requires time and knowing what to do and how to do it.


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## MollyLarue (Jan 9, 2011)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


I grew up with German Shepards. My first one at age 5. So, for 60 years I have been a German Shepherd mom. I would absolutely have a Shepherd guard my children. Two things to consider: know the breeder and be a great trainer/owner. German Shepherds need to bond with their family so having someone else train your dog doesn't work well. That is why you get "unpredictable" dogs. All my dogs were particularly great with babies, human or animal. Our young Shepherd ccould be rambunctious, but when it came across a baby on the blanket laying on a floor their demeanor would change and they stepped into a parental role, very gentle but also watching out for their "charge.

Good luck!


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## RockyMtn07 (10 mo ago)

LateAthenian said:


> Thank you for this insight about what it's like to own a collie and a WLGSD. Are the WLGSDs less likely to herd? The collie's temperament with children sounds great, but the barking might drive me nuts. On the other hand, I want a barker, don't I?! I was reading about them since @wolfy dog recommended them and it does say that they can be vocal. They definitely have The Pretty Factor, which as someone pointed out above, cannot exactly be said of the mastiffs . Do you find that she is content being out in the yard, that she likes to hang out and watch what's going on? The problem with our poodle is that he just wants to be in the house.
> 
> Our poodle is pretty easy to live with overall but prone to separation anxiety and excessive barking in certain circumstances. Standard poodles are so easy to to train it almost feels like cheating, so my confidence is not established with a true working breed. It's a toss-up whether he will go in the yard with the kids or try to hang out on the patio to get back in the house (though he can be commanded off the patio, his memory is a bit short). I suspect he has some miniature poodle in his line somewhere, as I know some breeders grafted the miniature poodle lines into the standard lines to produce the red color. I do trust him in the yard with the kids. A more serious breed gives me pause in that regard though. My whole concern revolves around them being in the yard without direct supervision, which is impossible for me to do as much as they want to be outside. I leave the screen door open and keep an ear out 100% of the time (auditory supervision), but I can't get my eyes on 75% of the range of angles where they play (visual supervision) from my vantage point in the kitchen (where I do most of my work), and that bothers me a lot. There is an alley behind the house and a lot of thru traffic on the streets, so I do think it is a security issue. Probably need to install cameras, but bad guys aren't deterred by cameras they can't see.
> 
> ...


Our collie does enjoy being outside, but will happily go inside when told to do so. She loves being around the kids and pretty much any other human in existence. She is very social. She very intently watches everything outside. My GSD has lower prey drive than the collie did at his age, but then again everything about him is different than her. So far anyway. I’ve only had him for a couple months, but in that time he’s shown to be confident, quick to recover, forgiving of my mistakes, eager to train, and just an all around happy guy. Where the collie is social to a fault, the GSD is more reserved. There’s a calmness about him that the collie doesn’t have. She’s more bubbly, if that makes sense. 

The concern for me in leaving kids and dogs alone unsupervised is that kids are a lot to handle and can be downright scary to a dog. Both parties have the ability to do serious damage towards each other so I don’t see why they should be set up for failure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL!!! I don't know where all these dogs come from that wouldn't be suitable in a home with children. Stick with a poodle? LOL! I have been bitten more by poodles than any other dog when I was a kid. Whatever. I don't spend an hour a day with my dogs/puppies, and 10 out of 11 are bomb-proof with kids. The 11th is a serious dog that just hasn't been around children, and I am not about to borrow a toddler to try him out with. I will say that I have homed a bunch of pups to families with babies/children and the puppies do just fine. This is pretty crazy to steer people to poodles, like poodles don't have teeth.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

living on my land in the woods by myself with my 2 GSDs,I dont want my dogs barking to much on my out of sight out of mind farm. Only the young female barks and the older male doesn't and neither of them are attack dogs=they like people. My dogs are there only as a (look there is a big mean deterrent, S&M is the attack dog). what I do use for an alarm if you have the land is peacocks, (guinea hens would work as well) seeing as you have to travel a ways down dirt roads and an out of site almost mile long drive way so there is really no reason for anyone to come to my farm uninvited/unannounced. I say stick with the kid friendly breed dogs like the Labs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> LOL!!! I don't know where all these dogs come from that wouldn't be suitable in a home with children. Stick with a poodle? LOL! I have been bitten more by poodles than any other dog when I was a kid. Whatever. I don't spend an hour a day with my dogs/puppies, and 10 out of 11 are bomb-proof with kids. The 11th is a serious dog that just hasn't been around children, and I am not about to borrow a toddler to try him out with. I will say that I have homed a bunch of pups to families with babies/children and the puppies do just fine. This is pretty crazy to steer people to poodles, like poodles don't have teeth.


OP already has a poodle. Doesn’t need to be steered.
Maybe I should have phrased it, “Stick with the poodle you already own”?🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

AZdoglover said:


> I recently had a 45-minute phone conversation with Charles Miller, a long-time German Shepherd breeder near Tallahassee, FL. His YouTube channel is called "German Shepherd Man Official Channel". He does GREAT work; I've learned a lot from him. He and I talked on the phone a few days ago about this very subject.
> 
> Charles has been in the German Shepherd breeding business for 47 years. He said that during that time, his experience has taught him that while there is a chance for German Shepherds to be nippy with young children, the chance is not very high. He advised that you teach your young children that it's not acceptable to run around and yell in a German Shepherd puppy's/dog's presence. German Shepherds will eventually learn, when trained rightly, that the children in their family are there's to protect but not herd because the children are part of the dog's "pack".
> 
> Charles advised that if your German Shepherd begins to nip at children when chasing them, that you immediately step between the dog and the children, give the dog a quick verbal correction (such as "Uh-uh!") and give him a hard stare. He says that's one of the ways that one dog corrects another for inappropriate behavior.


I wouldn’t take this guys advice. Most of the young dogs I’ve had have been bity as puppies. Not just with kids but everyone. My shepherds were bity with everything.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I wouldn’t take this guys advice. Most of the young dogs I’ve had have been bity as puppies. Not just with kids but everyone. My shepherds were bity with everything.


They don’t call them Land Sharks and FuzzyGators for nothing. 😃


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## Kaisergsdpup (Sep 30, 2021)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...


My advice to you is to do your research, If you are NOT willing to "turn your lives up side down" then do NOT buy a shepherd. They are a lot of dog and need constant brain and physical training. The shepherd you are looking for will need high level training, and not all are mentally capable of reaching that. Seems to me that you are looking for a dog to make parental decisions for you,. Not good. Get a human nanny.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

At risk of getting off-dog, and it's not meant as a slight, and obviously a one year old is maybe different?

But kids now grow up so differently. 

When I was 7 or 8 I was expected to be outside most of the day playing or amusing myself - I got kicked out if I didn't want to go. Come back for dinner but you can't come inside. I'm 43. Finally I met a friend in another part of my suburb and I could walk to her house and we'd play in the creek for hours. But none of my other friends did that, I didn't find a friend to do stuff like that with for a long time. My brother was off doing who knows what. When I was really little, we had a sandbox and a swing set with swings and such things. At that my mom would put me in the sandbox. We got the swing set when I was 5 or 6. Our yard wasn't fenced in. 

Toby (age 53) also grew up with little outside supervision (though they had a dog when he was little who would pull him back if he was about to wander into the street). Mind you, his mom told me in January it was a shame we never had kids 'because it could crawl around on the floor with the cats'. Heh. 

All of this is not a slight - our nieces and nephew have grown up the same, they play outside, and can go to friends houses now, but they're also tweens going on teens. When they were younger they always had supervision. That or they're inside on screens. 

Nowadays if you let your kid play outside like Toby and I got to do when we were kids I'm pretty sure you'd have the cops called on you or something.

It's a shame.


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## TXRanger (10 mo ago)

I must say, I’m surprised at everyone being so discouraging about GSDs and children. When I was about 6 y/o and the oldest of 5 kids, my parents adopted an adult female GS from the shelter. She was an amazing baby sitter. After she passed away, we got a GS puppy. There never was any problem with him and us kids. He played with us all day long. In the winter, he pulled us around on a sled. As an adult, I have had several GSDs. All of them have been great with kids. The worst that ever happened, was one of my female when she was a large puppy accidentally knocked my nephew down when he was a toddler. He was fine. I had several white German Shepherds and found all of them to have a much gentler temperament. They all loved babies, even baby animals, like kittens. Although, they would be protective when necessary. Look for a dog or puppy with the right temperament. No high drive working line dogs. Stick to a good quality showline. My opinion, for what it’s worth.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

AZdoglover said:


> Have you personally worked with German Shepherd rescues? I'm an animal rescue volunteer myself. I love the work that rescues do. I also love the work that responsible, ethical breeders do. Truly, I think both rescues and breeders are necessary. My biggest issue is that I want to* know what I'm getting.* Is it possible to know what you're getting when you adopt a rescue dog? It seems like you can if the dog lived in a foster home first. What is your opinion?


I have had mixed experiences with rescues (though I have never worked with a breed specific rescue; I'm sure those are tighter operations). I worked for 8mos as an admissions officer for a large urban humane society. I saw a lot of behavior tests issues brushed under the rug to get dogs out of kill shelters, and issues underplayed to unwitting adopters. My heart goes out to rescues (or I would not have worked with them putting myself at risk like I did), but with kids, I would have to insist on a dog from a breeder, someone who managed the lines going back for generations. Coincidentally, my favorite dog I ever transferred was a German Shepherd mix; a tan dog with a black mask. He was smart as a whip, and I'm happy to report found an excellent home.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Kaisergsdpup said:


> My advice to you is to do your research, If you are NOT willing to "turn your lives up side down" then do NOT buy a shepherd. They are a lot of dog and need constant brain and physical training. The shepherd you are looking for will need high level training, and not all are mentally capable of reaching that. Seems to me that you are looking for a dog to make parental decisions for you,. Not good. Get a human nanny.


Your input about the commitment this breed requires is well taken, but I find your comment about getting a dog to make "parental decisions" for me insulting and off base. Multiple people thought I meant this from my original post so maybe I did not construct it well enough, but, I don't even trust the vast majority of other adults with my children, much less a dog. This whole thread is to explore the question of the GSD's trustworthiness; I definitely do not assume it. The answer appears to be "with proper breeding and training", which shifts the question to, "can you make the commitment", which the answer is likely, no. I'm certain from your response that you are also of a more serious disposition (probably most people interested in these dogs are) and that we would agree on many things.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

jarn said:


> At risk of getting off-dog, and it's not meant as a slight, and obviously a one year old is maybe different?
> 
> But kids now grow up so differently.
> 
> ...


With respect, it breaks my heart that I cannot in good conscience give my children the childhood you enjoyed. We were born to be free, and I mourn that my children can't disappear for hours at a time to go explore, test themselves, and find ways out of the trouble they get into. But our times are not as safe, the average person is not as stable and moral, and we parents have to act accordingly. Again, no real disagreement here, just an acknowledgment of different circumstances.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

TXRanger said:


> I must say, I’m surprised at everyone being so discouraging about GSDs and children. When I was about 6 y/o and the oldest of 5 kids, my parents adopted an adult female GS from the shelter. She was an amazing baby sitter. After she passed away, we got a GS puppy. There never was any problem with him and us kids. He played with us all day long. In the winter, he pulled us around on a sled. As an adult, I have had several GSDs. All of them have been great with kids. The worst that ever happened, was one of my female when she was a large puppy accidentally knocked my nephew down when he was a toddler. He was fine. I had several white German Shepherds and found all of them to have a much gentler temperament. They all loved babies, even baby animals, like kittens. Although, they would be protective when necessary. Look for a dog or puppy with the right temperament. No high drive working line dogs. Stick to a good quality showline. My opinion, for what it’s worth.


I don’t think it so much that. GSDs make great family dogs. However the amount of time they require in exercise and training to become a great family dog is typically beyond what a mom with 3 and growing to 6 small kids can invest.

If no one takes the time to bond, train and exercise a GSD, that pent up energy and bored brain can become a nightmare.

You can find enough help requests for adolescent GSD nipping my kids threads to attest to this. Thus why someone new to breed who agrees they don’t have the time to dedicate to the dog is discouraged from getting one.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

2020palm said:


> I had a DDR GS so my experience might be different. I’ve also owned very protective standard poodles. Our GS I would not allow to be with our then 3 year old because the squeaky high pitched noises toddlers make would really trigger her prep drive. She was not raised as a puppy with a baby so that might change things. We wouldn’t let her out with him until he was over four and knew he had to behave more calmly around her. Just my experience and each dog is different but I would not have a DDR GS with very young children.


I agree, I would not want to start with a DDR GS either. WGSL seems to be the consensus for a first time owner, right?
Where did you find your standards? I am disappointed with ours. He is too much of a house dog. No interest in hiking, and wants to stay near the house on the porch. It's a battle to get him to go in the yard. He's sweet and good with the kids, but pretty unrewarding for me, personally. My Catahoula was my girl. We covered lots of miles together, and she was courageous.
And this is really funny, but also cool. A breeder for red standards that I found, Bijou Poodles, had one of their dogs earn an IPO title. Apparently that's the 5th standard worldwide to do so.  Maybe the answer is another poodle, but a bigger and better bred one. No one would want to poison it, either, which is another drawback of GSDs and other guarding breeds. They're so expensive to groom though. I do some of it myself, but I'm a beginner.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Weikafei said:


> I know you've mentioned a friend hand a bad experience with a great pyr but I think if you found a well bred one with a breeder that understood your purpose you would be much better off with a livestock guardian like a pyr (other others.) I wouldn't dismiss the breed based on the one dog/story.
> 
> I have a pyr and a GSD. I don't have kids but have a 6 and 9 yr old neice and nephew and friends that have brought over toddlers. I have absolutely 0 concerns with my pyr, he's super tolerant/patient, does not chase, is athletic enough to walk along for distances (but he's not going to trot or run for long periods) and is mostly happy finding a spot to lay, watch and alert to even the slightest disturbance. Livestock guardians are bred not to have a prey drive.
> 
> ...


This is intriguing, thank you for sharing your balancing perspective here. I will re-consider. It is hard when someone you know has an experience like that with a dog. I think a great pyr definitely fits the deterrent bill. Our neighbors a few doors down have a great pyr, he lives outside though. I should note about my friend's great pyr, I am pretty sure that it was an Amish bred dog, which is to say a carelessly bred dog. (They asked me recently if they could breed our standard poodle (who is not breeding quality anyway) to their great pyr because "people will pay more for those." I said no.)


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

NadDog24 said:


> I was raised around high drive working dogs. I was never left unattended outside because my dad’s police dog’s kennel was out there and he wasn’t very friendly. That said, my dad knows how to handle dogs and taught them from the time I was brought home that they were to behave and be careful around me. I actually remember those dogs still and how patient they were with me, especially after I started walking and leading them around the house (with supervision of course). With proper training, it can work.


It sounds like your dad was really engaged with the dogs and knew how to be responsible with them. It probably taught you a lot of good things too to have to respect the capabilities of those dogs, too, caution that can be applied to other things that demand respect in life. Thanks for sharing.



AZdoglover said:


> I feel your pain! There's a reason why more people lean towards the herding breeds than towards the larger mastiffs, pyrenees, and similar guarding breeds! If it wasn't for the lack of discernment that many herding breeds have to know what's acceptable to herd and what isn't, they'd be the perfect dogs, in my opinion. There are so many pros to herding breeds, especially in the protection department. They're smart enough to know who's a friend and who's a threat while being "humble" enough to be eager to please their owners. That balance is something you don't usually find in the larger guardian breeds or in the retriever breeds.
> 
> Check out the YouTube channel "German Shepherd Man Official Channel". After watching many of Charles Miller's videos there and talking to him personally on the phone, I can't recommend him enough. He's been in the German Shepherd breeding business for 47 years. He's a wealth of knowledge and he's all about helping people.
> 
> Charles is the one that Yahuah (Hebrew name for the Lord) used to give me renewed hope that I can have a German Shepherd around small children. You have to be willing to put the work in, but it's worth it! If it helps you any, since your situation sounds similar to mine, Charles recommended to me that I look for a West German show line German Shepherd.


Yea, that is exactly the appeal of a herding breed: "smart enough to know who's a friend and who's a threat while being "humble" enough to be eager to please their owners." This is the ticket, you have to find it with good breeding though. I will check out Mr. Miller's channel, how funny you ended up talking to him coinciding with this thread. I have talked to some breeders who place WGSLs in families with small children and read testimonials about how much they all love their dogs. But like people here have mentioned, I doubt I have the time to integrate one of those dogs into our lives with optimal success anytime soon. The dream is definitely that dog who knows friend from foe and is looking out for you, and understands the kids are its "flock," and doesn't find kids perturbing or threatening. I hope things work out well for you all with your new addition! You should post about it.



Doglady88 said:


> We’ve had 6 German Shepherds. One before kids, and 5 more with kids. When I had my first child, we had a male and a female who were both about a year old. The male fell instantly in love with the baby, watched over him, sniffed and gave kisses. His temperament was rock solid and he never left my child’s side. He was the same with my other children. Our female was terrified of my first child at first, then totally indifferent. She was just indifferent to the others. My kids are 11 down to 6 in age. The kids have been taught how to treat dogs with respect. But all dogs are different and have their own personalities. Do you know what type of shepherd you want? Because the lines are very different. We have always had WGSL, which are lower drive dogs and I think this is the best line with kids, assuming you use a good breeder. There are also American SL, but I’d avoid them. They have no real breeding standards and are a mess as a result.


It's good to hear some success stories for later down the road. Did your female who was nervy come from a breeder? I would probably go with WGSL, yes.

Interesting you would say that about American SL. They do look a bit dysgenic in the hip area. American breeding has not greatly improved a lot of breeds, unfortunately. In particular, it has seriously compromised the standard poodle. I read all about standard poodle genetics before buying one. There was a mid-century bottleneck due to the poodle population being bred to this same stud dog, and it's resulted in lingering genetic issues in the breed, particularly with autoimmunity.



gtaroger said:


> I have owned GSD for over 55 years. My daughter was raised with them. Every one of the 6 GSD that we had were raised around kids . All but one was great with kids. The one dog that was not good with kids was the only GSD that had a horrible temperament. The good thing was my daughter was already grown when we got him.All of the other GSD bonded to my daughter and would protect her with their lifes.The reason I kept getting GSD was they are great with the family and will protect them. My daughter would be in the back yard with all her friends playing., Ranger our GSD dog was always out with them.my daughter would come in for a nap and some of her friends would keep playing. Ranger would stay out with them. If a adult came to the back yard, he would meet them at the gate. He would stand at the gate and growl at them . My wife or myself would have to go the the back door and tell him to leave it. Then they could come in and get their kid.He always was gentle with the kids. When one kid would start getting to rough with another kid Ranger would slip in between them and kind of give a little bump to the kid getting rough. He never hurt a kid. We lived in Detroit and the neighborhood could be pretty rough.All the kids on our block came down to our house to play with my daughter and Ranger.Kids could come in any time and walk out with anything and he was ok with that. If a adult tried to come in my house or yard with out my wife or myself they would have been in for a world of hurt.You must find a pup thats even tempered ,and not over active.By that I mean he's not bouncing off the walls with energy. If you raise it with kids and make it a very big part of the family, It will bond to the kids and take on the job of being your kids play mate and protector.I all my years of living with GSD I have found that I had to put a whole lot of work and training to get the dog that we wanted. It was worth all the work and time.If your serous about bring a GSD into your family you will be highly rewarded with a freind that will have your back and enrich your life.I can think of no other dog that would be better for a family.


Ranger sounds like a great dog. What you're describing is really what I am looking for in a dog, a balanced and even tempered base to build off who will regard the kids as "their own." I know it all won't come together without training but I want that foundation there. I grew up in a rough neighborhood too, so safety issues are a reality to me. Sounds like you're not in Detroit anymore. Glad you are somewhere safer now. So am I, but I prepare for the worst and hope for the best.



MollyLarue said:


> I grew up with German Shepards. My first one at age 5. So, for 60 years I have been a German Shepherd mom. I would absolutely have a Shepherd guard my children. Two things to consider: know the breeder and be a great trainer/owner. German Shepherds need to bond with their family so having someone else train your dog doesn't work well. That is why you get "unpredictable" dogs. All my dogs were particularly great with babies, human or animal. Our young Shepherd ccould be rambunctious, but when it came across a baby on the blanket laying on a floor their demeanor would change and they stepped into a parental role, very gentle but also watching out for their "charge.
> 
> Good luck!


Thank you for your perspective. An unpredictable dog is a hard no-go for me. Gotta find the right lines. It sounds like you were really blessed with wonderful dogs. A peaceful household is the goal.



selzer said:


> LOL!!! I don't know where all these dogs come from that wouldn't be suitable in a home with children. Stick with a poodle? LOL! I have been bitten more by poodles than any other dog when I was a kid. Whatever. I don't spend an hour a day with my dogs/puppies, and 10 out of 11 are bomb-proof with kids. The 11th is a serious dog that just hasn't been around children, and I am not about to borrow a toddler to try him out with. I will say that I have homed a bunch of pups to families with babies/children and the puppies do just fine. This is pretty crazy to steer people to poodles, like poodles don't have teeth.


I admit I was originally a bit surprised at the responses, because I grew up with two shepherds at my grandparents' house and I was out in the yard with them a lot by myself. And they had no training. The average person thought differently of dogs in my grandparents' time- and perhaps also there are so many lines of GSD it is difficult to generalize. Differing levels of investment. Their dogs were backyard friends for my grandpa as he did his work outside, and served as their alarm system. One was a shortcoat and a bit harder tempered, she did nip me once while I was running around. The other was a plush coat who was very sweet and submissive and never displayed any behavior like that- I would love to have a GSD just like her. BUT, they were never inside dogs. People didn't used to demand as much that dogs be good with kids crawling around on the floor indoors... but I must. Overall shepherds are more serious dogs than poodles. Standards are usually humorous with kids, I haven't had any problems. I'm sorry you had bad experiences!


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## Deetles (Jun 13, 2015)

Just jumping in to comment...I'm on my 3rd GSD...love them to death....gsds make great baby sitters BUT...you do need to train them everyday for at minimum 1 yr as pups ...there is no compromising that. We have no kids but my first shepherd when playing with my 2 yo niece knew on his own, that she was young...he would never lunge at the ball when she played fetch with him, unlike with me. If you do not have a fenced yard you might want to consider another breed ..none of my GSD's liked other dogs and with no fence and no supervision you might be asking for trouble... All of my GSD's were trustworthy with humans...young and old...I never had to be concerned with them. I did leave my 2nd GSD alone , playing with my friends kids for a half hour or so and the kids and the dog had a blast together...but I knew he had a kind soul and wouldn't hurt them. If you consider a different breed you might want to look into Great Danes. American bred by a breeder with dogs they show and/or kids in the home. Stay away from lines with hyper GD's.

Danes ARE gentle giants. They can protect their turf and family but only when there is a threat. They still need training and they can be a bit sensitive but they are wonderful loving dogs...you do have to train them to be gentle in their play with the young ones only because they are so big. We have had 3 GD's and they are really sweet fun loving dogs. Euro Danes are fine but they drool..A LOT...and they fling the drool everywhere..you won't have too much of that with the American lines....
Also be advised with GSD's they are having increased amounts of health concerns ...everyone I've had has allergies and they can be expensive to treat.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

@LateAthenian, Based on all your responses and reactions, not only should you eventually have a German Shepherd, but you deserve one.
I sincerely hope that when you are ready, you go for it. You certainly know the right way to go about it, which is more than I can say for 99% of people coming here and asking questions of us.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

PS, check your PMs.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

There are obviously many gentle GSD's that are child safe but IMHO there are other breeds that are generally speaking, safer. 
During his first year our little GSD made Jack the Ripper seem like a harmless amateur. Our hands & arms were covered with painful scratches and holes for months. Even with supervision a child would have not been safe around him at that time. Now that he's 2 years old he's not play biting anymore but he's not the kind of dog that would tolerate anyone treating him like a stuffed toy. Since even children that are taught to not abuse animals can make a mistake I believe that the GSD as a breed is less likely to tolerate abusive behavior than some of the gentler breeds (as an example a Golden Retriever). 
I'm not saying that it's OK to mistreat a Golden Retriever, they too deserve respect and if they feel threatened they can bite as hard as any GSD. But chances favor a breed like the GR to not react overly aggressive to an occasional accidental mishap with a child. 
However if you have already decided on a GSD for your children I would advise getting a dog that is already near adulthood where his puppy biting days are over and his personality is clearly known to be child safe.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

All it takes is a toddler tripping over a resting dog's leg. He was bitten in the face. Never was an issue before.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> I would not want to start with a DDR GS either. WGSL seems to be the consensus for a first time owner, right?


Well… Rolf is DDR, and I would enthusiastically a recommend a GSD from his lines.
Depends on the pedigree.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

LateAthenian said:


> With respect, it breaks my heart that I cannot in good conscience give my children the childhood you enjoyed. We were born to be free, and I mourn that my children can't disappear for hours at a time to go explore, test themselves, and find ways out of the trouble they get into. But our times are not as safe, the average person is not as stable and moral, and we parents have to act accordingly. Again, no real disagreement here, just an acknowledgment of different circumstances.


Oh I'm 100% not blaming you. None of our nieces/nephew grew up with that same freedom either. Times are different, absolutely. It's too bad, for sure.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's not the breed that is the issue here. Valor is a lot of dog and he is absolutely fantastic with kids. Always has been. He's confident enough that a toddler grabbing his face doesn't freak him out and he's hard, so getting stomped on isn't a trigger for defensive behavior. He doesn't resource guard. He will instigate fetch with my 2 yo grandson and he isn't grabby when he waives the toy around.

But without proper foundation and regular training/exercise/stimulation, he would be a wrecking ball. Sometimes you have to lay down the law, and new people to the breed just don't understand the when/why/how of that situation.

I leave my dog in the back yard or the woods with my grandkids with confidence. He's the perfect dog for that. But I know my dog and I've put in the time.

If I was looking for an easy going GS family GSD, I would ask here for breeder recommendations and then be 100% truthful with the breeder about your lifestyle and expectations.


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## Carla (Apr 13, 2020)

LateAthenian said:


> Hello,
> Our family is interested in a GSD. I want a dog who will watch our property while our children are in the yard. I want our children to have more freedom while I am working in the house. I stay home and the GSD is being considered both due to a true interest in the breed, and from a security perspective.
> 
> We owned a Catahoula leopard dog before children, which is a more serious breed. I prefer the serious breeds to the softer ones. We also trained a standard poodle with children but I know GSDs are a different breed and not soft-mouthed. I have done a lot of research on the breed but no amount of research will give you on the ground experience.
> ...



I had one GSD that I could not trust with my children and one that I would have trusted with almost any child. I said "almost any" because I honestly believe no young child should EVER be left unsupervised with a dog. Accidents happen. We had a one year old trip and fall on our sleeping German Shorthair Pointer. The child was not hurt, but the startled dog woke up growling and confused. Also, one day I caught our young neighbor boy (from a very good family, mind you) throwing rocks at our dog. Accidents happen. Dog bites are serious, and can be very deforming. And even some smart, good children tease dogs.
Going back to my two experience with GSDs, I would offer this advise. First and foremost find an excellent breeder. Not just a good breeder. An excellent breeder has years of knowledge and experience, knows his or her lines and breeds for good temperament. These breeders even have early enhancement programs to ensure that their puppies have experiences to make them less fearful and more confident. Check out Alta Tollhaus German Shepherds. Do your research and ask lots of questions. Also, make sure that even your children are above your dog in the pack order. My three year old grandson is very good at this because he is naturally bossy 😂, and his dog knows where she stands with him. With our less than predictable GSD, a behaviorist had us put him on the "nothing is free" program. Even the children made him earn everything he wanted before he would get it. If he wanted to go outside, he would have to sit and stay. If he wanted a treat or toy, sit or lie down first, etc. This is just my two cents worth. Hope it helps with your decision!


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> All it takes is a toddler tripping over a resting dog's leg. He was bitten in the face. Never was an issue before.


See, this is what gives me pause. I would never own a dog I thought this was a possibility with. I know we say "it can happen with any dog", but I question the innate temperamental stability of a dog that reacts that way to a routine annoyance. A well established, reputable poodle breeder I spoke to who used to breed GSD years ago told me that most GSD lines are nutty now. Whether that's true or not I do not have the knowledge to comment on, but it's something I hope to find out more about. Seems the ASL lines are more compromised?


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> It's not the breed that is the issue here. Valor is a lot of dog and he is absolutely fantastic with kids. Always has been. He's confident enough that a toddler grabbing his face doesn't freak him out and he's hard, so getting stomped on isn't a trigger for defensive behavior. He doesn't resource guard. He will instigate fetch with my 2 yo grandson and he isn't grabby when he waives the toy around.
> 
> But without proper foundation and regular training/exercise/stimulation, he would be a wrecking ball. Sometimes you have to lay down the law, and new people to the breed just don't understand the when/why/how of that situation.
> 
> ...


Can you get an easy going family GSD that is also hard enough to not feel threatened by kids? The "low drive/old fashioned" types don't enjoy a good reputation on this forum because they're not performance tested to prove nerve. But yea, a true working line dog is not something I would be looking at at least until the kids were teens. An easier going GSD, maybe when they're all old enough to understand how to behave around a dog (5-7 depending on maturity).

I like training dogs. I don't have a problem with putting the effort in, or with disciplining consistently. But it seems like I just couldn't do it _alongside _little kids with this breed, because they bite so much as puppies- bites that matter, not hurt feelings bites like a poodle puppy. And the kids are always around, and the dog always needs to be around to be trained, so there's the rub. Seems like a catch 22. I don't want to have to crate a puppy all the time to prevent it from terrorizing the kids. Not fair to anyone.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Carla said:


> I had one GSD that I could not trust with my children and one that I would have trusted with almost any child. I said "almost any" because I honestly believe no young child should EVER be left unsupervised with a dog. Accidents happen. We had a one year old trip and fall on our sleeping German Shorthair Pointer. The child was not hurt, but the startled dog woke up growling and confused. Also, one day I caught our young neighbor boy (from a very good family, mind you) throwing rocks at our dog. Accidents happen. Dog bites are serious, and can be very deforming. And even some smart, good children tease dogs.
> Going back to my two experience with GSDs, I would offer this advise. First and foremost find an excellent breeder. Not just a good breeder. An excellent breeder has years of knowledge and experience, knows his or her lines and breeds for good temperament. These breeders even have early enhancement programs to ensure that their puppies have experiences to make them less fearful and more confident. Check out Alta Tollhaus German Shepherds. Do your research and ask lots of questions. Also, make sure that even your children are above your dog in the pack order. My three year old grandson is very good at this because he is naturally bossy 😂, and his dog knows where she stands with him. With our less than predictable GSD, a behaviorist had us put him on the "nothing is free" program. Even the children made him earn everything he wanted before he would get it. If he wanted to go outside, he would have to sit and stay. If he wanted a treat or toy, sit or lie down first, etc. This is just my two cents worth. Hope it helps with your decision!


Yes, that's what I was trying to describe in my first post about excellence- not that I expect a dog to just be born excellently behaved but that I insist on an excellent base to work from through good breeding.
That's funny about your grandson. 😂 He's not a firstborn, is he? Our eldest is like that, but also sensitive. Difficult combination!
I agree it is ideal to never leave kids and dogs alone in theory. In practice, it does happen, especially when you are home all day. That's why you have to trust the dog has a child safe temperament, or thinks (like our poodle) that everything is fun and games. If you are constantly fretting about an accident with the dog, you have no peace. If I had to live like that, I would just as soon not have a dog. The risk of injury is dependent on many variables: breed, temperament, presence of resources (our dog does not have these unless given to him under supervision, otherwise they are taken up from the floor). With some dogs, it truly is a remote risk, like a remote side effect covered in post-marketing surveillance for a pharmaceutical product that may have happened in one or two cases per 100-200 thousand respondents queried. With others, it is a substantial risk- and the more you go towards the serious breeds the more serious the damage can be.
I was attacked by my dad's dog as a child, and narrowly avoided serious injury/possibly death because he tackled the dog. All of the victims of deforming dog bites I have met have been the victims of a specific breed (which aligns with national statistics). It does happen with other breeds, but I would like to think the risk is remote rather than substantial with a GSD from good lines. Interested in hearing people's opinions about that. I think deep down because I was attacked I am afraid a GSD would just do the same thing to my kids for no reason, just random unprovoked or dubiously "provoked" violent attack like my dads dog did to me with no threat signal.
Could you describe the differences in your GSDs' temperaments more? Did they come from different breeders? Why do you think their temperaments were so different; why was one reactive?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't rely on stability of temperament in a dog. They are animals, domesticated predators with teeth and they react on their animal instincts and reflexes. Actually a nervous dog is easier to deal with in this regard because you are aware of the risk. On the other hand, most people trust their gentle dogs too much. Just check the cutesy Instagram pictures with dog-hugging toddlers or sleeping puppies with a baby. Too many kids have been injured and killed and dogs being euthanized as a result of unrealistic expectations for dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LateAthenian said:


> Can you get an easy going family GSD that is also hard enough to not feel threatened by kids? The "low drive/old fashioned" types don't enjoy a good reputation on this forum because they're not performance tested to prove nerve. But yea, a true working line dog is not something I would be looking at at least until the kids were teens. An easier going GSD, maybe when they're all old enough to understand how to behave around a dog (5-7 depending on maturity).
> 
> I like training dogs. I don't have a problem with putting the effort in, or with disciplining consistently. But it seems like I just couldn't do it _alongside _little kids with this breed, because they bite so much as puppies- bites that matter, not hurt feelings bites like a poodle puppy. And the kids are always around, and the dog always needs to be around to be trained, so there's the rub. Seems like a catch 22. I don't want to have to crate a puppy all the time to prevent it from terrorizing the kids. Not fair to anyone.


I don't honestly know where I would look for an easy going GSD with solid nerves. It's not my kind of dog or the kind of dogs I train. I'm not knocking it, just explaining my ignorance.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I agree with @wolfy dog. People see brief videos online through social media and pictures and think nothing will go wrong. Most of these people posting probably won't mention the bad moments that can occur. Social media is mostly positive animal content with kids. Reality tends to be different than a glimpse. This is why at times after a Hollywood movie comes out with a certain breed kids start asking their parents for that dog and some people don't realize how much work is actually involved with a dog. Then the dog has to be put down. Most of the time it's not the dog's fault. This is an animal, observe it, educate yourself and apply accordingly.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

There’s a showline from my mentor that I worked every week that thrived in a household with young kids. This dog is very involved in the families lives. He goes to the mall, restaurants, to beaches and all types of other places with his family. There are a couple things to remember. One the youngest is around 4 or 5 I think. She has a good understanding of how to be around dogs. The other thing is the dog does get plenty of time. He is intergrated into their lives. He didn’t take some experienced, expert hand. He did take effort though. The problem I usually see with this situation is it’s hard to put the effort in with the dog when you have to do the same with young kids, work, and have other hobbies. Something usually gives, and it’s usually the dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

LateAthenian said:


> See, this is what gives me pause. I would never own a dog I thought this was a possibility with. I know we say "it can happen with any dog", but I question the innate temperamental stability of a dog that reacts that way to a routine annoyance. A well established, reputable poodle breeder I spoke to who used to breed GSD years ago told me that most GSD lines are nutty now. Whether that's true or not I do not have the knowledge to comment on, but it's something I hope to find out more about. Seems the ASL lines are more compromised?


I would trust the average GSD 100X over the average poodle, Shihtzu, Chi, Pom etc. Just me.
Poorly trained fear biters scare me more....


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

This dog was not raised around children, but she adores them - babies, toddlers, big kids, little kids, teenagers. She’s a dog that I definitely trust around kids. It’s funny, because Scarlet is such a crazy wild child, but put her with kids, and suddenly she’s a different dog. 

In this photo, she parked herself next to the baby, and wouldn’t leave his side.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

But you were supervising


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> But you were supervising



In my experience, it all depends on the dog. 

I wouldn’t leave a baby alone, with or without a dog. Scarlet is perfectly safe with kids. I don’t need to be on top of her. 

Years ago, I dropped Carly off at my breeders house. She had about 8 or so small grandchildren racing and screaming around the yard. Carly didn’t skip a beat. She was a very kid safe dog too.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh, and by the way, Scarlet is an American showline, as was Carly.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Where it comes down to is that you have to able to read the subtle signs of discomfort in the dog and react calmly but decisively


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think ANYONE suggests leaving an infant alone with a dog, in the back yard or anywhere. I don't mean leaving the child in a crib, playpen, or even on the floor on a blanket while you go in the other room to grab a cup of coffee. I mean putting a baby/toddler in the back yard and go in to take a shower -- no one is going to do that dog or no dog. Once a child is old enough to play in the back yard on his own, one would know if the GSD he was raised with is ok to be out there with him. 

Most GSDs I have known clearly understand the difference between children and adults and act accordingly. I used to bring my sister's girls out to my house once or twice a year, and we would visit the kennels and feed the dogs. There might have been 22 adults, and the kids went into every kennel with me. One of the sharpest bitches, Ninja, one day the little girl, Elena who could barely lift the bucket of food had put the food in her bucket and Ninja's muzzle was already in the bucket and she shoved her hand right into the bucket to move it. Ninja just moved along with it. She knew that this kid could do whatever she wanted, and she should let her. 

I really don't understand people warning others off the best breed on the planet for kids. These bitches will mother anything, including children. Have you ever watched a bitch with pups. They are WAY more tolerant than human mothers. But they do know the difference. Because a pup might be on the receiving end of a cautionary grumble, and it seems like human babies/small children never get that. It seems like they eat up human attention, even when it hurts. I remember Cujo, my parents dog, and Analisa jumped off the couch and landed on him, and it hurt. He did snap at her, he did not connect, and my mother snapped at her and told her that she hurt the dog and that was the end of it. She was more careful even I don't know if she was 2 or 3 years old, but she and that dog were like best buddies as she grew up, whenever they came over. So he did not remember her hurting him, was not afraid of her. And she certainly was not afraid of him. 

If a child does something that injures a dog, any dog, yes they might get bitten. The German shepherd is not going to maul a child to death. If a child rides it bike and falls, it may get a bruise or some blood. German shepherds can be scary. My Dad never wanted one. His reason, was that when he was 7, he was bitten by one. Let me explain: The dog was a neighbor's dog and he would go over and play with it. One day he got a big stick and he was throwing it and the dog was bringing it back and he was getting the dog all amped up with the stick, and at one point, he shoved the long sitck behind his back. The stick went way over his head and the dog lunged for the stick and got him in the head. There was nothing vicious in it. It was amped up play, and the dog stopped immediately when he connected not on the stick. There was no supervision, and frankly, I don't think supervision would have prevented the accident. 

There may be other types of dogs that will taste blood or defeat or whatever and get crazy and maul its victim. That is not a normal trait of GSDs. What I experience as normal for GSD is to be very aware of children, and very careful around them -- not knocking them down, not pushing past them so they fall into the pool, not dragging them with a leash. LOL, when my sister's girls were little and they had on their matching purple coats, I had them "walk" Babsy. She stayed right along side them keeping the leash loose all the time. That is what I expect from a GSD bitch. Or dog. At eight, those girls walked Mufasa out of the IX center where there were thousands of dogs and their people milling everywhere, and he was a young dog under 2 years.

An old breeder friend of mine told me this story: The dog bit the small child so they took the dog to the vet to put him down. Beautiful dog. They had the dog on the table. And the vet noticed something about its head, and looked in its ear. Deep in the ear, he pulled out a pencil. The dog got a reprieve. GSDs have a high tolerance for pain. Most minor injuries are just ignored by the dog when its a child. But can you imagine finding out after the fact that the kid put a pencil down the dog's ear? We supervise children around out pets because children NEED supervision, not the other way around.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The truth is that there are GSDs that will hurt kids. It's up to the owner to know if that is a possibility. Not all owners are capable of that understanding. I personally know several people that were bitten in the face by GSDs when they were kids. I have been bitten by several GSDs that were possessive or just jerks.

To make a blanket statement that the GSD is a bomb proof dog with kids is just irresponsible IMO.

ETA: the goals of every breeder are not the same. There are many different types of GSDs. Not all are suitable for unsupervised interaction with kids.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think no dog is suitable for unsupervised interaction with young kids. How young? Sometimes I don't trust teenagers


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My response to the OP had nothing to do with the breed and everything to do with a very busy family that likely lacks the time, resources and support to raise a puppy. Especially because there are and will continue to be young children in the mix. 
Responsibly the only dog that I would recommend is a mature dog with a solid foundation already in place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> The truth is that there are GSDs that will hurt kids. It's up to the owner to know if that is a possibility. Not all owners are capable of that understanding. I personally know several people that were bitten in the face by GSDs when they were kids. I have been bitten by several GSDs that were possessive or just jerks.
> 
> To make a blanket statement that the GSD is a bomb proof dog with kids is just irresponsible IMO.
> 
> ETA: the goals of every breeder are not the same. There are many different types of GSDs. Not all are suitable for unsupervised interaction with kids.


I don't think anyone was saying that all GSDs are bomb proof with kids. Lots of people are out there breeding insane over the top GSDs in the name of working ability. They claim that is what the founder wanted. If they read the founder's book he expected his dogs to be sound around children. When the breed was created, the German farmer did not have the resources to have multiple dogs for multiple functions. So having a Great Pyranese to protect the sheep and a pyrean shepherd to move the sheep was not something that they could easily afford. He wanted a medium sized dog that would both move the sheep and protect them from human and animal predators, he wanted a dog that would guard the farm and play with the master's children. It is in his book. The German farmer who could not afford multiple dogs, also did not have unlimited time to make the dog "bomb proof" around children. And there are other German Shepherds who have poor nerve and cannot handle the irratic movements and energy of children in general. I think for the most part these dogs would avoid children, but if pressed they might bite a child. 

My dad was bitten in the face by a GSD when he was 7. For him, this incident made him not trust the breed and not want the breed (until they had Cujo), eventhough the incident was a clear accident. My sister was giving steak pieces to my dogs and there were many and she offered a piece to a dog that was afraid another would get it and snagged quickly. She told me the dog bit her. I looked at her hand, no mark whatsoever. It taught me not to let people give my dogs anything particularly if they are not the only dog in the running for whatever it is. Because what was clearly not a bite, people think is a bite and will remember it forever. If you are bitten by a GSD, then the ER or at least a Dr. visit is generally required. There will be blood/bruising, possibly swelling, might need stitches. Unfortunately, there are enough GSDs with improper character out there that children are bitten in the face and need to visit the ER. It seems like a lot of them are owned by folks on the site or have been owned by people on this site. 

When you have a GSD that is bomb proof with kids, it is really a pleasure. And, when it is warranted, feeling that much confidence in your dog makes it that much less likely for anything to ever happen. When we are holding a short lead tightly, completely worried about how our dog is going to react around small children, the children are much more liekely to get bitten.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> My response to the OP had nothing to do with the breed and everything to do with a very busy family that likely lacks the time, resources and support to raise a puppy. Especially because there are and will continue to be young children in the mix.
> Responsibly the only dog that I would recommend is a mature dog with a solid foundation already in place.


Maybe if a family with kids is too busy to raise a puppy, we are expecting too much in general of the family with kids. Kids do not have to do extracurricular activities. Kids at school for 6-6.5 hours per day, and parents at work 8 hours plus travel time, 5 days a week, leaves a goodly amount of time each evening for making dinner, cleaning up, and spending time with the family and puppy, before a good night's rest. If the kids are in extra-curriculars several nights a week, and the parents have meetings and organizations they go to, maybe that is an area where we prioritize if we are going to bring in a puppy. It is not so much that they cannot manage the puppy and a bunch of kids, it is more that their set of priorities are such that choices would have to be made if the puppy/family will be successful.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Maybe if a family with kids is too busy to raise a puppy, we are expecting too much in general of the family with kids. Kids do not have to do extracurricular activities. Kids at school for 6-6.5 hours per day, and parents at work 8 hours plus travel time, 5 days a week, leaves a goodly amount of time each evening for making dinner, cleaning up, and spending time with the family and puppy, before a good night's rest. If the kids are in extra-curriculars several nights a week, and the parents have meetings and organizations they go to, maybe that is an area where we prioritize if we are going to bring in a puppy. It is not so much that they cannot manage the puppy and a bunch of kids, it is more that their set of priorities are such that choices would have to be made if the puppy/family will be successful.


I don't think we should be telling people how to live. Some people have no kids, it isn't my place to tell them they should. Some people keep their dogs outside or in kennels and interact to feed and tend them. It isn't my place to disagree. 
I devote several hours of my day to ensuring my dog is exercised and has a chance to explore the world. Some dogs never leave the property they live on.
But a busy parent with a growing family and a career and another dog is not going to benefit from the addition of yet another chore. A puppy that needs to be trained at least to pee outside, not eat the house and come when called is work. If it is to be a part of family life training will need to be more.
They have a dog, the OP is content to wait.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

selzer said:


> Maybe if a family with kids is too busy to raise a puppy, we are expecting too much in general of the family with kids. Kids do not have to do extracurricular activities. Kids at school for 6-6.5 hours per day, and parents at work 8 hours plus travel time, 5 days a week, leaves a goodly amount of time each evening for making dinner, cleaning up, and spending time with the family and puppy, before a good night's rest. If the kids are in extra-curriculars several nights a week, and the parents have meetings and organizations they go to, maybe that is an area where we prioritize if we are going to bring in a puppy. It is not so much that they cannot manage the puppy and a bunch of kids, it is more that their set of priorities are such that choices would have to be made if the puppy/family will be successful.


No really with 3 small ones. 
8 hours of sleep
2 hours to get kids and adults ready and fed
Travel 1 hour
Work 8 hours
Travel 1 hour
Prep, cook, eat, clean up at least and hour
1 hour quality time with kids, talking reading to them
Get kids ready for bed 1 hour

Leaving only 1 to 2 hours of adult time to unwind and relax 

This doesn't include any chores and assume they are all done on the weekends. Now add feeding, training and exercising a puppy, you're over 24 hours with no adult time. What do you cut? Sleep, time with the kids, or time working the puppy. 

Middle school or older it is doable and we did but not with a GSD, with adolescent lab from a rescue and Beagle puppy.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

With raising 2 kids every other week I spend roughly about 3 hours with my puppy. Mind you I get up at 5am now and tend to do well with time management & being organized. Next year once she's 1 based on my schedule I'll have time to extend her exercise to 2 sets of 1 hour each. For now we stick to 30 mins. By the time I get home from work with the kids (luckily my commute is only 5 mins) it's just go go go. And I do have a dinner schedule. Most weekday meals are easy stuff. On the weekend I can prep and have a few left overs ready. Could I manage all this with 3 kids or more on my own? Maybe with a show line low drive. My WL for now seems to be low-med. It's a lot of work and stress can easily build up even if you're the calm type. Kids between 3-5 are a lot of work and demanding at times.

And I forget if you have people nearby to help if an emergency pops up where someone has to watch your dog or you can board it somewhere. Getting older physical and mental health issues can slowly creep up. I deal with a bit of physical stuff. And lately especially with this pandemic I think I'm slowly in need of some care for mental issues. 

I have to find a place to board mine in the future because I currently don't have anyone who I know here or trust. Hopefully I never have to do it but who knows.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

I disagree with those that think breed doesn't matter. Some breeds are by design calmer and less likely to react aggressively than others. GSD's are among a small group of breeds universally chosen for protection and police work for a reason. Although there might be a few out there I have never seen a Golden Retriever used for this type of work. Therefore if I wanted *a puppy *for my young children I would look into something other than a GSD. However *an adult GSD* with the right temperament would be a wonderful choice. 

The other side of the coin is not talked about enough and that is the behavior of some children. We don't like to talk about our kids but it is fact that some kids by nature (yes, I believe that evil kids exist) or by lack of education are not good around animals. Some children should not be left alone with any kind of animal and too many innocent dogs are euthanized every day for doing nothing more than defending themselves from an abusive child. Some kids are capable of driving anyone crazy and finding a dog can be expected to be happy living under these conditions 24-7 is difficult enough, finding a GSD that can do it is even harder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

drparker151 said:


> No really with 3 small ones.
> 8 hours of sleep
> 2 hours to get kids and adults ready and fed
> Travel 1 hour
> ...


I guess I suppose a family that continues to intend to have children over the course of the next ten years, has two adults not one. A lot of the time work schedules are staggered so that one parent drops the kids off or is there in the morning, and the kids are in after-care or the other parent picks them up, or a babysitter. One parent might take care of making dinner, the other parent might take the kids for a walk with the puppy. Or not. Being single, what gets done around my house and with my dogs is done by me. But then I have never required 8 hours of sleep, and am used to doing things like working full time and running a business, or working full time w/regular over time and going to college full time. I was only saying that a family with small children can also manage a puppy if they arrange their priorities to include the puppy. It's a choice. We make choices. Lots of families with children live around their kids' extra-curricular activities, and I am pointing out that that is a choice. 

My sister waited for her girls to be 14 before finally caving and getting a puppy. There is no bus service for the high school, so she has to drive her kids to school and she has to drive her kids to any extracurriculars they have. She is a single mom, and she is a professional which means she works way over the average 40 hours/wk. She is also super mom and those girls do it all. They've been to 6 out of 7 continents. I call them globe-trotters. She took tae kwon do with the girls and she is now a black belt, the girls are second tier black belts, which means they have held the belt 2 years to get the first tier and then another 2 years. The one girl has a half-lease on a horse so she spends a lot of time at the barn. The other girl is into sports. Both are in marching band, and both are honor students. My sister often takes the puppy with her to the kids' extra-curriculars, so while they are doing their thing, she can walk the dog. Frankly, I don't know where she gets the energy to do all she does. She makes choices. 

My other sister has a more traditional family, the kids are 11 and 12 and a few months ago they added a lab/golden mix -- great dog for growing families. Her husband is an abusive idiot though with an alcohol problem. I heard that he is punching the puppy in the head, and the puppy has now attacked my sister. He says he is training it the way his mother did hers. His mother's dogs bite people. So even a family with two parents, two kids -- middle school age, and a pup the breed(s) most suggested for families with children are going to have problems. Depends on the people. Glad now that they do not want a GSD, but I am worried about the puppy. 

My parents had six kids, and we had a number of dogs growing up. But then my parents didn't let us do extra-curricular activities. And the kids were spread out. The first four were stair steps -- my brother was 5.5 when I was born and I was the fourth. My little brother arrived almost 7 years later, and my sister 4 years after him. So by the time I started remembering things, my older brothers had chores. Like, when I was 4, my brother was 10, he got us out to school in the morning, wore the key, brought us home from school, let us in and watched us until my dad got home from work. When I was 7, I helped Brian cook dinner every night, he was 11, and Bob did the dishes, Lynn did the dishwasher work. And Lynn and I did a lot of the caring for Mark, and when Lisa arrived, she too. Having a dog wasn't that big of a deal.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't rely on stability of temperament in a dog. They are animals, domesticated predators with teeth and they react on their animal instincts and reflexes. Actually a nervous dog is easier to deal with in this regard because you are aware of the risk. On the other hand, most people trust their gentle dogs too much. Just check the cutesy Instagram pictures with dog-hugging toddlers or sleeping puppies with a baby. Too many kids have been injured and killed and dogs being euthanized as a result of unrealistic expectations for dogs.


Yea, but that domestication counts for a lot. If it didn't, we would as good as be living with wild animals in terms of unpredictability and risks, and no one would find the juice worth the squeeze besides real eccentrics. I take your point though, and don't disagree that it doesn't pay to be foolish. I might posit that the bond between man and dog is not purely material, but those videos make me cringe also because most people are really deluded about dogs today, being excessively sentimental and ignorant of the importance of breeding. I try to discourage that at home but toddlers just want to hug dogs, it's a fact. Have to be careful which ones you bring into their environment.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

dogfaeries said:


> This dog was not raised around children, but she adores them - babies, toddlers, big kids, little kids, teenagers. She’s a dog that I definitely trust around kids. It’s funny, because Scarlet is such a crazy wild child, but put her with kids, and suddenly she’s a different dog.
> 
> In this photo, she parked herself next to the baby, and wouldn’t leave his side.


It's remarkable that her behavior is so different with kids. She looks so chill in this picture, it is hard to imagine her being wild! I like her.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

selzer said:


> I don't think ANYONE suggests leaving an infant alone with a dog, in the back yard or anywhere. I don't mean leaving the child in a crib, playpen, or even on the floor on a blanket while you go in the other room to grab a cup of coffee. I mean putting a baby/toddler in the back yard and go in to take a shower -- no one is going to do that dog or no dog. Once a child is old enough to play in the back yard on his own, one would know if the GSD he was raised with is ok to be out there with him.


Yea I think this is pretty reasonable. "A child old enough to play in the backyard by himself is ok to be out there with a dog." This is how I was brought up, how my grandparents thought about things. I don't think people used to be as intense about the supervision stuff in every respect, like the older Canadian gentleman who contributed to this thread brought up. It was just expected that kids would come along- learn to avoid trouble, deal with adversity, etc. We do business with an Amish farm here and their kids literally run around outside unsupervised all day long. Toddlers and puppies and kittens alike, free on the farm. I would never let my kids do that. But there are big differences in outlook there.



selzer said:


> I was only saying that a family with small children can also manage a puppy if they arrange their priorities to include the puppy. It's a choice. We make choices. Lots of families with children live around their kids' extra-curricular activities, and I am pointing out that that is a choice.
> 
> My parents had six kids, and we had a number of dogs growing up. But then my parents didn't let us do extra-curricular activities. And the kids were spread out... Having a dog wasn't that big of a deal.


This is true re: priorities. It depends on what is important to you, how much you are willing (or practically able) to sacrifice. And it's not like dogs stay puppies forever. It was annoying at times to have a puppy and two small kids but not really arduous. He was pretty easy. The key was that he could be alongside kids (unlike a GSD which would need to be controlled away from them) because his puppy behaviors didn't cause collateral damage like a GSDs would (soft mouthed vs hard mouth). I have a neighborhood friend who showed airedales in the AKC who evaluated my training with him and said I did a great job.
I think dogs being less of a big deal then are related to a couple of things. They more often were outdoor dogs- so their behavior and training wasn't as important as a dog that would be in close contact with your kids inside. And like I said people had different expectations then.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> But a busy parent with a growing family and a career and another dog is not going to benefit from the addition of yet another chore. A puppy that needs to be trained at least to pee outside, not eat the house and come when called is work. If it is to be a part of family life training will need to be more.
> They have a dog, the OP is content to wait.





drparker151 said:


> No really with 3 small ones.
> ....
> 
> Leaving only 1 to 2 hours of adult time to unwind and relax
> ...


Just to clear one thing up - I'm a SAHM who is home all day. It is demanding. But lately I've just been itching for an active and competitive hobby like I used to have before kids. Which is why I was looking into GSDs. Seemed like it would be fun to have something to do that was physically and mentally engaging, would help me feel safer at home, and also would be a good jogging buddy. But probably I am too tired to really commit to it and the big kicker is that it isn't safe to do alongside kids because they're too bitey as puppies. I'm really not content with our current dog, he has been a disappointment (I settled, I shouldn't have), but I think I'll look into getting a different dog in a few years that has more drive and try to get the obedience really dialed in, maybe compete.

@Sunflowers also said middle school of kids was a good age to get a GSD. I think this is pretty sound advice. Something to look forward to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alrighty then. I am thinking of the countless puppies I have placed in homes with infants and small children, and never has one been returned to me because they were too "bitey" with the children. I feel bad that folks on this site are encouraging a stay at home mom to NOT get a GSD puppy because they are too bitey as puppies.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I think the issue is "unsupervised"


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Alrighty then. I am thinking of the countless puppies I have placed in homes with infants and small children, and never has one been returned to me because they were too "bitey" with the children. I feel bad that folks on this site are encouraging a stay at home mom to NOT get a GSD puppy because they are too bitey as puppies.


Generally a stay at home mom stays at home to care for the kids, rather than for dogs. Staying home with kids is a huge task. When we had our kids home, (3 in 4 years time) it worked with puppies because dogs were my passion and an outlet for this busy life of mine. I got dogs for me, not to watch the kids because that was my job.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I forget if OP has a partner who can assist her. But also you mentioned you currently have another dog which has unfortunately turned into a disappointment. A young GSD will need training & exercise time to tire them out otherwise the puppy will be stressed out no different than a toddler who doesn't nap. My youngest who doesn't nap anymore since he's in JK I know probably would benefit from a nap still cause he gets a bit cranky later on in the day. Middle school aged isn't that far away for you and I'm sure the wait will be worth it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> Generally a stay at home mom stays at home to care for the kids, rather than for dogs. Staying home with kids is a huge task. When we had our kids home, (3 in 4 years time) it worked with puppies because dogs were my passion and an outlet for this busy life of mine. I got dogs for me, not to watch the kids because that was my job.


While I was unemployed, I had the privilege of taking over for my sister's nanny while she visited family in Honduras. 2 weeks with 2 two year olds, that didn't know me all that well. That and cooking meals for the household and cleaning up afterwards. Yes it is a job. I spent the next six years working weekends over there. Bringing a dog with me often, because the kids loved the dogs. Yes, you have to keep an eye on both the kids and the dog, the dog is an extra being to watch, but the girls, even little at 3 years old could go outside with the dog, while I was in the kitchen preparing lunch, with an eye and ear tuned to the back yard. 

Elena picked up reading like a fish picks up swimming. Because of a genetic vision problem, reading was not as easy for Analisa. I would ask her if she would like to read to Babsy. And she would love to take Babs into the room and read to her, and Babsy seemed to understand the job. Taking the kids and the dog to the park, yes, you have to watch both the kids and the dog, but the dog brings another dimension to taking the kids to the park. There are so many learning opportunities. 

I have never been a Stay At Home Mom. I have never been a mom. So the only experience I have is babysitting as a teenager which isn't the same, and the years of working for my sister, which included getting kids to extra-curriculars, and camps, and sometimes having them stay at my house for days at a time. 






















































Watching the kids grow up with dogs has been one of the most special things in my life. That last pup is the ones the girls finally got to keep. He's a trip and a handful. But the whole household loves him.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Generally a stay at home mom stays at home to care for the kids, rather than for dogs. Staying home with kids is a huge task. When we had our kids home, (3 in 4 years time) it worked with puppies because dogs were my passion and an outlet for this busy life of mine. I got dogs for me, not to watch the kids because that was my job.


I don't think I made it clear in my OP, but my motivations are similar to yours. This would be my dog, that I would train as my "mom outlet." The question was can it be done alongside kids w/ this breed b/c it's just impractical to train a dog if they can't be around your LOs safely for 2 yrs. I don't expect to outsource supervision to a dog; the dog would be there to enhance supervision rather than replace it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, my dogs from the past were not GSDs, but mutts who didn't need what a GSD needs.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I used redirection with the puppy biting issue. If the kids planned to be active, I told them to grab a toy. So for a bit of time the house was covered in toys, always one within reach. I never had any trouble with the puppy biting my kids. And this was a working line puppy with a good amount of prey drive. 
My boy, Vandal, has definitely been a wonderful outlet for me. As I said, lots of work but work I like.
Pic of my boys out in the woods together


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> Alrighty then. I am thinking of the countless puppies I have placed in homes with infants and small children, and never has one been returned to me because they were too "bitey" with the children. I feel bad that folks on this site are encouraging a stay at home mom to NOT get a GSD puppy because they are too bitey as puppies.


We all get it, you breed dogs.
Dogs that are not to standard and clearly in no way typical of the breed. That's great but lets not set people up to fail. The average GSD puppy requires a ton of time and energy. Most pups and young dogs are not content to hang out in a pen. They want to run and chase and bite. Without firm guidance and consistent rules they become holy terrors.
Personally I don't find them as problematic as most people seem to, but most people have not handled as many dogs as I have and dogs seem to react differently to me. My teenage step daughter thought Shadow was a terror. I thought she was a pretty easy pup so its all relative. The **** spawn litter were little demon seeds. They attacked everything that moved, but I found them entertaining more then bothersome.
OP it ultimately comes down to personal feelings and time management. I was raised around dogs, I raised the kids with dogs. But I'm not going to loose my marbles if someone gets a scratch or a bruise, other people parent differently.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> We all get it, you breed dogs.
> Dogs that are not to standard and clearly in no way typical of the breed. That's great but lets not set people up to fail. The average GSD puppy requires a ton of time and energy. Most pups and young dogs are not content to hang out in a pen. They want to run and chase and bite. Without firm guidance and consistent rules they become holy terrors.
> Personally I don't find them as problematic as most people seem to, but most people have not handled as many dogs as I have and dogs seem to react differently to me. My teenage step daughter thought Shadow was a terror. I thought she was a pretty easy pup so its all relative. The **** spawn litter were little demon seeds. They attacked everything that moved, but I found them entertaining more then bothersome.
> OP it ultimately comes down to personal feelings and time management. I was raised around dogs, I raised the kids with dogs. But I'm not going to loose my marbles if someone gets a scratch or a bruise, other people parent differently.


Who the flippity flip are you to say that my dogs are not to standard? Am I breeding oversized, undersized, dogs with brown noses, white dogs? Have you met my dogs? They are not typical of the monstrosities that can't make it in a house with children, that's true. That is certainly not what the breed founder wanted, according to his book. Whatever.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

This is getting more personal as it goes on. OP has decided that for now, they do not want to make it a priority to supervise and train a gsd puppy while growing their family and raising their current dog. If they change their mind, we could work on finding them litters that are historically a little more laid back (many of us have dogs bred from or for work/sport or dogs with personalities that require more training in some way. OP, if you change your mind eventually, there are shepherds who do not fall into these categories and we can help you try and stack the odds of finding one in your favor)

Perhaps we should leave it at this unless OP has any further questions?


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> We all get it, you breed dogs.
> Dogs that are not to standard and clearly in no way typical of the breed. That's great but lets not set people up to fail. The average GSD puppy requires a ton of time and energy. Most pups and young dogs are not content to hang out in a pen. They want to run and chase and bite. Without firm guidance and consistent rules they become holy terrors.
> Personally I don't find them as problematic as most people seem to, but most people have not handled as many dogs as I have and dogs seem to react differently to me. My teenage step daughter thought Shadow was a terror. I thought she was a pretty easy pup so its all relative. The **** spawn litter were little demon seeds. They attacked everything that moved, but I found them entertaining more then bothersome.
> OP it ultimately comes down to personal feelings and time management. I was raised around dogs, I raised the kids with dogs. But I'm not going to loose my marbles if someone gets a scratch or a bruise, other people parent differently.


I was raised around dogs and horses too, and like I said I was around my grandparents' untrained GSDs, so I have been a bit baffled at the strenuousness of the discouragement in this thread. My parenting perspective is similar to yours; I'm not a fainting daisy on that count, I want my kids building character and confidence. I am not concerned about a bump or two here or there, but I want to avoid "you have to be careful all the time/never turn your back in your home because this breed is unstable and will just snap and maul your kid." Having been turned on by a "family pet" (arguable description) as I mentioned before, this is a particularly keen reality to me and I would never foolishly subject my children to the same circumstances. All dogs require training; I'm aware of the commitment entailed and have undertaken it before. But there is no group consensus here about the safety of the breed with kids.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> This is getting more personal as it goes on. OP has decided that for now, they do not want to make it a priority to supervise and train a gsd puppy while growing their family and raising their current dog. If they change their mind, we could work on finding them litters that are historically a little more laid back (many of us have dogs bred from or for work/sport or dogs with personalities that require more training in some way. OP, if you change your mind eventually, there are shepherds who do not fall into these categories and we can help you try and stack the odds of finding one in your favor)
> 
> Perhaps we should leave it at this unless OP has any further questions?


Well, I am not sure that I have made up my mind to wait 25 years to get a GSD, the time at which my youngest possible theoretical child would be in middle school, especially as people seem to disagree so much on how safe or unsafe the breed is. It is the nature of forum threads that they degenerate and become personal, unfortunately. I think you are right and it is time to gently part on this, and I will continue to pursue information from individual breeders. I'm open to any suggestions for this more laid back type of line you are describing. I'm not considering getting a dog tomorrow, just eventually. I thank everyone for their input; it has been a rich and interesting thread.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

None of us know you. So advice is theoretical and anecdotal. 
If you decide to get your pup do yourself a favor and find a GOOD breeder. One who is breeding to standard, doing proper health testing and knows their dogs. These dogs should be balls of energy and inquisitive fun. Look for breeders who live with their dogs and do something with them. Be honest and up front about your lifestyle, requirements and time constraints. Do not fall for the cute puppy game. Steer clear of breeders who claim their dogs are perfect.
Ask here for recommendations or opinions on potential breeders.
No well bred GSD should be ok with no stimulation and limited exercise or minimal human contact. It is completely at odds with the standard. They should want to be near you constantly and be bold about it.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

No one is saying the dog may turn on your child. We are saying that they need supervision and a lot of training and exercise and that it seems that you don't have the time to devote to a puppy right now.

These puppies are smart and get bored easily. If not supervised they can get into a great deal.of mischief and cause some serious damage to their surroundings and to themselves. You can't just put them in the back yard and expect all to be well.

They can dig huge holes in the yard, or chew the siding off your house. They can kill trees by ripping off the bark. They don't make the best decisions when left to their own devices.

Ask us about the crazy things our pups have done when our backs were turned. They are a huge commitment of time and training. Two hours a day devoted to the pup is no joke. And the rest of the day is spent trying to keep them out of trouble.

If you can manage all that in your current situation, after a couple of years you will have the best dog on the planet. But please be realistic in what that requires.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LateAthenian said:


> "you have to be careful all the time/never turn your back in your home because this breed is unstable and will just snap and maul your kid.


No way, no how. A well bred and stable GSD should not ever do this. Any large dog is a risk but this breed should be trustworthy around children. My big guy was not a fan of kids, but his aim was to just avoid them. It would have never crossed his mind to harm one. He did knock one down but it was an accident and he did stop to ensure she was ok before continuing his escape from her.


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## LateAthenian (10 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> No way, no how. A well bred and stable GSD should not ever do this. Any large dog is a risk but this breed should be trustworthy around children. My big guy was not a fan of kids, but his aim was to just avoid them. It would have never crossed his mind to harm one. He did knock one down but it was an accident and he did stop to ensure she was ok before continuing his escape from her.


That makes me feel better. I guess I have healing to do with a "serious breed" dog since my incident as a kid. I have watched videos of GSDs with kids and yea, I mean it's clear they're more tolerating kids than enjoying them (the Goldens do look like the antics of kids are "fun" for them, on the other hand). Our poodle tolerates. I think a good time for us would be in a few years when my two eldest kids are about 7 and 9 and the poodle is about 5 or 6. Gives me plenty of time to find a good breeder, be on a waiting list and get the perfect dog. The kids will be able to help more by then with potty training and throwing a ball.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It also depends how the kids are raised. I just finished a sub job in a grade school and I wouldn't have trusted half of them with the most gentlest dog.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

My apologies, I misread.

I want to add, since it seems to be being missed, that some of us are talking gsd puppies @Pawsed and some are talking adults. @Sabis mom. (Using you two as examples) .

Generally the rule of thumb is: put in the large amount of time and commitment when they are young (first 2-3years), and you should have a active and stable companion when they are adults. 

I second the statement about finding a solid breeder, who knows their dogs inside and out, and who understands your situation.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

LateAthenian said:


> I absolutely do not have 2 hours a day to devote to a dog but I do question if that much time is strictly necessary to produce a well-adjusted pet, as I don't think hardly anyone's dog gets that kind of investment (as much as I would like to give it).


Yeah, it actually takes more than two hours a day. I have a 14 month old and believe me, I am spending a pretty big chunk of time working with him. Spread out over the waking day. I am also investing in good trainers to help me along the way, which is expensive and another time drain because I travel to them.

That is how you build a level headed dog: you start with a good breeder (who might balk at selling you a puppy given your expectations and desire to have more children), then you pay them an honest amount for their well bred pup, then you start training from the moment pup comes home, then you find the best trainers you can and pay them what they are worth and then you invest the time daily to train as well as traveling to the trainers once or twice a week. After 2-3 years of this, you might have a dog that can be safe while outside with your children, providing you are there to supervise. Stuff happens. Kids do weird things around dogs. Dogs aren't robots. They react in unexpected ways sometimes. There is no such thing as the Nana dog in Peter Pan, a babysitter in a fur coat.

Find a teen aged human and pay them to sit outside and supervise. It will be safer and cheaper.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> Who the flippity flip are you to say that my dogs are not to standard? Am I breeding oversized, undersized, dogs with brown noses, white dogs? Have you met my dogs? They are not typical of the monstrosities that can't make it in a house with children, that's true. That is certainly not what the breed founder wanted, according to his book. Whatever.


My "monstrosity" of a working line is by far the most stable dog I have ever owned. You breed for the pet trade and sell based on your talk that your dogs are more like Goldens. Remember that we have had a couple of your puppy buyers visit this forum over the years. You know, the ones that you wouldn't help because you didn't own the stud?
Sheilah


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

We need popcorn. On a serious note, this feels like slander and the typical way internet works sometimes.


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