# Far future pup.



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Hearing that Wanda at Kleinen Hain has plan of breeding my obsession (Enzo) next year, got me thinking about what I want in my future pup. 

Which got me thinking about my current dog, Koda. We have definitely had some training issues that we have worked on and fixed some of the problems, but there are many things that I have tried to fix, but either I can't seem to set it up right for him to learn, or he just doesn't want to learn. 

When I adopted Dakota, we were told that he was headstrong and will test his boundaries, and he needed a consistent leader. We were told that he didn't like toys, and he is a bit dense sometimes. Like he is smart like a shepherd, but not a smart shepherd. 


Things I have come to realize about Koda:

1. Not toy motivated. Will not tug, and very selective about what toys he likes (we have a lot of toys that have never been touched)

2. If I can't figure out how to break something down into the smallest easiest steps, he will get stuck and shut down. He won't work to figure it out. 

3. Clicker works well for him, but no clicker trainers in my area, and I know I am not the best cliker-er. The class we have taken was a basic obedience course (pass with flying colors)

4. He almost refuses to heel with his prong on, or any collar for that matter. His best heel is in the house walking off leash, with food in hand. 

5. While he loves to track, he gets discouraged easily when working on things, which makes me shut down, because when I try everything I can think of to relay what I want to him.... he just walks away, or lays down, or sits and stares at me like, "huh???"

And I am constantly lost for ways to keep this boy engaged in anything. If we play fetch its only for a few minutes since he will lose interester after 10-15 minutes. My homemade flirt pole is the same thing. So we end up doing as many off leash hikes as we can, since sniffing and peeing on trees is what he prefers to do. 


All this brings me to my whole point of this thread....

In my next dog, I want more. I love Dakota to death, but he is not meant for more than having fun. I still have plan on training him to track this winter, and will see how that goes. 

In my future dog I want her to be:

1. Eager to work: A dog that will offer behavior, work out solutions, be good at agility, or herding, or flyball, or perhaps even schutzhund. 
2. A dog that wants to play. Wants to tug, wants to chase, play something, Wants to engage.


My questions would be:

Do I need a higher drive dog to get those things, or would a medium drive dog be just a capable?

How do you know if you can handle a high energy high drive dog? I know people say they can, but then actually get one and lose their mind!!! So how do you know?

Also, I seem to be drawn to the czech and DDR lines the most, if that helps...


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Ok, I'll start with a question for you.

Why or what seems to draw you towards the "czech and DDR lines"? Their looks?

I recently had a very interesting conversation with a friend who had their heart set on Czech or DDR lines. Turns out what they really wanted described the West German Working-Lines to a T. Even the dog they used as an example of their idea of the perfect GSD was mostly West German Working-Lines.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

train, train, train and socialize, socialize,
socialize. i read somewhere 'when a dog isn't
doing what you want you're doing something wrong".


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

I am having the same problem... how do you really know? Sometimes by the time you know you cant handle it its to late... or you have to return the poor pup.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you can find 1 & 2 in alot of dogs and not specifically a "line" of dog. 

As for Koda, there are some dogs that just don't want to tug/interact like that, does food motivate him? That's what I'd be using on him. And work on that clicker.

I find to much repetition CAN make a dog shut down, also if we as handlers are not clear and concise in what we want or our expectations are to high, they are going to look at us like 'Huh? I Have no idea what your asking!" 

If "we" get discouraged, you can bet that dog knows it, and gets just as discouraged.

Most dogs, I think anyway, blossom doing what THEY do best. Not maybe what "we" want them to do best, but what THEY do best. With that in mind, the trick is figuring out what he does best in Whether it's agility, schutzhund, tracking, obedience, rally, or peeing on a tree and looking good doing it

To answer your last question, I think that is where WE as owners have to be totally realistic in what WE want to live with, because in the end , that dog is living under our roof the majority of it's life and if you can't "live" with a dog, your not going to enjoy other aspects of dog life either. 

It also boils down to being able to relay to 'said' breeder exactly what you can handle, and that breeder being able to 'peg' their puppies, since the breeder is interacting with them a heck of alot more than us. 

Masi is a tugging fool, frisbee chasing, ball destructo, energizer bunny, as she matures she settles well, but when she is ready to "go" , she does it full steam ahead. I wouldn't have it any other way. However, this type of dog isn't for everybody. 

I'm not trying to discourage you, just saying what your looking for isn't specific to a certain line


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Wolfie is a DDR working line. He is a handful and the smartest dog I have ever owned. He always needs something to do and keeps me very busy. He is now 8 months old, and he can open doors and let himself out of the house. I need to keep them locked at all times. He can open the lid of the toilet so I need to keep the bathroom door closed. He can and does open the oven door. He knows how to turn the touch light on in the livingroom. It's a constant battle when I want the light off and he wants it on! LOL! He steals my cellphone right out of my hands if I am texting , he steals the remote to the tv, and he steals the yarn when I am crocheting if he wants attention. He has an extremely high prey drive. He is obsessed with shadows and will bother us to no end until we make shadow for him to chase. He chases rabbits,mice, and any kind of insect. Yesterday, he peed on a slope and chased the stream of pee down the hill!! He is a lot of work, and a ton of fun. I am going to enroll him in some classes and see what it is that he likes to do, as it seems he likes to do just about anything. That's life with a DDR working line puppy.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly is from Pet lines, but is very smart, athletic, high energy and total love bug.lol. Tanner is very laid back, protective, very smart and a total love bug.

If and when I get my next GSD, I would want a med. drive working line or med drive show line. I like to have some laid back days, so a on/off switch is important. Also I will be around kids, so temperment(sp?) is important.I love the beach, so I would take my dog to the beach, walk around and play on the beach, I love riding my beach cruiser so I would have my dog run along side me.I might consider doing agility. I love taking walks in the evening, so I will take the dog on long walks in the evening. Also there are nature trails near me so I will do those do too. I am actually nervous about owning a working line dog, I am nervous I won't be able to handle it.lol. 

I got a while to think about things, so when that times comes for another puppy, hopefully I will be ready and know what I want.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Vinnie said:


> Ok, I'll start with a question for you.
> 
> Why or what seems to draw you towards the "czech and DDR lines"? Their looks?
> 
> I recently had a very interesting conversation with a friend who had their heart set on Czech or DDR lines. Turns out what they really wanted described the West German Working-Lines to a T. Even the dog they used as an example of their idea of the perfect GSD was mostly West German Working-Lines.


You caught me.... Its the looks!!! I see one and can't help but swoon!!! :wub: 

Before I got Koda, I thought there were two types of german shepherds, the American ones and the german ones, American were sloped and angular, and the German lines were very large (way larger than reality).

So I have been trying to figure out what differentiates the lines regarding their traits. 

As far as looks though, I like a beefy, Substainially boned dog (both male and female). I tend to like the darker coat colors (Bicolor, Black, Black Sable) as well as Most other sables, and ironically White. I like a dog with little slope.... I have yet to see a German Showline that didn't look roachy. 

I would post pics to explain but don't want to infringe on other photos/ property.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you can find 1 & 2 in alot of dogs and not specifically a "line" of dog.


I agree what I don't need to get a specific line for those traits, but as far as physical looks (which I know shouldn't be the end all be all) goes, those lines have my heart. They are what I think a great shepherd looks like...built for utility, but still gorgeous, like.... a mercedes.... gets you to work and back just like any other car, but at the end of the day, it's still a smokin' car.



JakodaCD OA said:


> As for Koda, there are some dogs that just don't want to tug/interact like that, does food motivate him? That's what I'd be using on him. And work on that clicker.


 food motivates him more than toys, even with his favorite toy, Cuz, he will block me out and just focus on it. "hey... that's cuz, can I have it? please! throw it! please! i'm here.. look i'll even sit pretty for you!!! ... wait you were talking to me???" It is wither that or.... um, not interested thanks... and he will leave to sniff the grass, and graze like a cow... As far as treats goes it depends on his mood, some days he doesn't care what I have... he will be in his own world... other days I could have a cheerio in my hand, or a piece of kibble and he will rock it out (with what he knows). I try to vary it with the treats I give him and it's hit or miss really. i know lately the heat has been bad so he shuts down WAYYY quicker, like as soon as we leave the house. 



JakodaCD OA said:


> I find to much repetition CAN make a dog shut down, also if we as handlers are not clear and concise in what we want or our expectations are to high, they are going to look at us like 'Huh? I Have no idea what your asking!"
> 
> If "we" get discouraged, you can bet that dog knows it, and gets just as discouraged.


I try to break everything down, but I know that I can't be doing it right... I guess for something I just get lucky. Like I am at a brick wall now with his heeling.... I am doing it in 2 different ways, we walk on leash everyday and he is make to make with me, not really heeling (although in his Basic Ob class we worked on it and he would shut down... and end up walking behind me so either we had to slow down, or drag him (never dragged). I think the problem with that was he knew he got treated once we stopped walking, so maybe he thought that if he could get me to stop he would get food faster. lol (Guess he is smarter than I gave him credit for). The other way is well kinda luring with food off leash and he is doing well with that inside... down our hallway, and in the back yard on some days. I will have to find my video card and get a recording of him doing his thing, so people here can critique me. lol

Another problem I had was teaching dead dog... I tried for two months to get him to willingly lay on his side on command... no progress until I switched it up and made some crazy game out of it.... eventually he would offer it to me during the game and I could make an association with it.... not really the way people give directions to teach it. 



JakodaCD OA said:


> Most dogs, I think anyway, blossom doing what THEY do best. Not maybe what "we" want them to do best, but what THEY do best. With that in mind, the trick is figuring out what he does best in Whether it's agility, schutzhund, tracking, obedience, rally, or peeing on a tree and looking good doing it


Well I think he would enjoy agility, but not be the best, so some reason I can't imagine a 28" 94 lb bear being lightening fast through a tunnel or chute. lol. But honestly I don't expect to be a world class champion at anything, just to have fun. So even if we never get a single title I would do it. What I really think he would excell at would be tracking. i haven't started him at it yet because I'm nervous I will train a bad habit into him and then it will end of keeping him from being his best later on. This boy loves hide and seek (favorite game) and loves using his nose (too much sometimes) I have caught him tracking our trail on our walks if we do 2 lap around the lake...

To answer your last question, I think that is where WE as owners have to be totally realistic in what WE want to live with, because in the end , that dog is living under our roof the majority of it's life and if you can't "live" with a dog, your not going to enjoy other aspects of dog life either. 

It also boils down to being able to relay to 'said' breeder exactly what you can handle, and that breeder being able to 'peg' their puppies, since the breeder is interacting with them a heck of alot more than us. 

Masi is a tugging fool, frisbee chasing, ball destructo, energizer bunny, as she matures she settles well, but when she is ready to "go" , she does it full steam ahead. I wouldn't have it any other way. However, this type of dog isn't for everybody. 

I'm not trying to discourage you, just saying what your looking for isn't specific to a certain line[/QUOTE]
I'm not really ready for taking the plunge and a lot can happen between now and then and hopefully I learn a lot. I'm pretty sure I would be in a straight jacket if I got a very high drive dog. The jacket would be ripped to shreds of course. lol
And I understand that I can get my traits in other lines of GSDs. But If I can. I would like to get one. But would it be too unrealistic to hope for a medium drive dog from two high drive parents?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no I don't think it's unrealistic to hope for a medium drive dog from two high drive parents, that's where the breeder's knowledge comes into play, being able to 'peg' their puppies)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Be sure not to label neurotic behaviors, destructive behaviors, and hyper activity as "drive".

How old was your dog when you got him? That may have something to do with it. With a puppy you can set the foundation that YOU want. Of course genetics count for a lot but on the spectrum of a pup's genetics, you can push one way or the other depending on how you train and socialize. You can encourage certain traits to be expressed and discourage others so they go extinct.




> 2. If I can't figure out how to break something down into the smallest easiest steps, he will get stuck and shut down. He won't work to figure it out.


This stuck out to me. When I am in dog training mode, I think it is my ultimate goal to break down each expected behavior into a chain, break it down into steps for the dog. Now, the dog should want to work to figure out each step, but it's the trainer's job to break the behavior down appropriately for the dog and their work style and set the dog up for success.

If you want a very "operant" dog that will freely throw behaviors and try to solve problems without showing stress, it's something that needs to be encouraged and used pretty consistently. Just like those who train more with compulsion/escape need to make sure the dog has that foundation so the dog understands how to turn off pressure and goes through a learning process rather than doing things out of avoidance. I use both of these training extremes with Nikon so I make sure to train him new behaviors with one of them fairly consistently to keep him understanding both styles of training.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Eager to work: A dog that will offer behavior, work out solutions, be good at agility, or herding, or flyball, or perhaps even schutzhund.
> 2. A dog that wants to play. Wants to tug, wants to chase, play something, Wants to engage.


I'd want a dog with higher drives and maybe even a little harder temperament to do all the things you listed above!

I say go for it.. Talk with the breeder so she knows what your limitations are and exactly what you want out of the dog.

We all had to start somewhere with our high drive dogs.. And most of us probably had help with the dog along the way..


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