# Premium Kibble + Raw = Nutritional Imbalance



## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

My vet said that feeding a dog a premium kibble (like Orijen) AND raw leads to a nutritional imbalance that actually ends up hurting the dog.

Anyone have experience on this?


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## PoukieBear (Mar 25, 2014)

It's best not to feed your dog a raw diet and kibble at the same time. The kibble takes a lot longer to digest than the raw, and it confuses the body.

If you're going to feed raw, you need to do the switch cold turkey (No pun intended). Either finish the kibble that you already have, then switch to raw the next day, or donate your leftover kibble to your local animal shelter or rescue group.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, how are you feeding it? Is the raw replacing part of his kibble meal? If so, then the raw has to be balanced properly. 

Are you just adding a bit a couple times a week? Then don't worry about it. Are you using the raw as training treats? Then don't worry about it. 

If the kibble is balanced, which it is, then you are not going to create a nutritional imbalance. That's like saying ice cream causes nutritional imbalance when you are eating a balanced diet.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've heard this before from a vet: kibble is 100% balanced (or so they say), so adding ANYTHING unbalances the nutritional profile. 

That is so laughable! Our bodies (like dogs') will use what they need, store or secrete what they don't need. 

How do animals in the wild survive without the "help" of commercial 100% balanced pre-made foods? Buy eating what they come across, and their body using what they need, and storing or secreting what they don't need.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

There can be some truth to this.
If you're feeding half kibble and a chicken leg every day, then your dog is only getting half a balanced meal. We always say in the wild, in the wild. But in the wild dogs can choose what they want to eat to balance their own diet out. Our dogs really only have what we give them, so it may not neccesarily be balanced even if it is raw or kibble. 

I think the important part is to balance both the raw portion and the kibble portion as if you were feeding them individually, and just halve that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Animals "in the wild" survive on what they can find, not what they choose.

In the wild, their lifespans are much shorter than domesticated animals for a variety of reasons.

Comparing our dogs to "in the wild" when discussing balanced diets and health makes no sense at all.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Animals "in the wild" survive on what they can find, not what they choose.
> 
> In the wild, their lifespans are much shorter than domesticated animals for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Comparing our dogs to "in the wild" when discussing balanced diets and health makes no sense at all.


This is my point exactly, though I disagree with you slightly on the find part.

We always compare to wild animals, but I don't think there is comparison.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, if you fed a chicken leg everyday for one of the meals, that is not balanced, but that is not feeding raw. Feeding raw is feeding a variety of different proteins, and a ratio of muscle meats, raw meaty bones, and organ meats, with other things thrown in like raw or cooked eggs, tripe, fish, etc. 

Hearing on the board how many people say they feed raw, and then I see that they feed ONLY chicken breasts and ground beef - well, no wonder so many vets are against raw if that is what they see.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Exactly Lucia. It has to be balanced. If it's not then feed a commercial food!


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I buy 2 whole chickens a week (organs, skin and all) cut it in quarters add yoghurt or sardine or raw egg and feed that as half his meal. The other half is premium kibble. 
Premium kibble is way over supplemented. Adding some raw meat will not do any harm. Humans eat different things that digest at different times all the time. I usually feed approx 12 hours apart but I don't think it is necessary.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

So is it okay to feed a quality kibble like Fromm in the morning and than in the evening feed a raw meat source like a chicken quarter or pork necks or the like? I just got my adult male back that has been on a raw diet for the last couple of years, my problem is I have so little time in the morning and have 5 other dogs, I also don't have an extra freezer!! The one I have is full of ice cream :0


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

This has been in the back of my mind for the longest time. I been thinking to feed half kibble and half raw... if the problem is they digest at different rate then it should be ok if fed at separate feeding time right ?
How bout that honest kitchen base product ? You suppose to add the meat raw/cooked of your choice with the base right ? Is the base meal not the same as kibble ?


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Iv been doing it with my dog since he was 8 weeks old. His poops are fine, he is never gassy, his coat it beautiful and he is full of energy. Going half half with a premium kibble is a good way to ensure the diet is more balanced IMO!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

LARHAGE said:


> So is it okay to feed a quality kibble like Fromm in the morning and than in the evening feed a raw meat source like a chicken quarter or pork necks or the like? I just got my adult male back that has been on a raw diet for the last couple of years, my problem is I have so little time in the morning and have 5 other dogs, I also don't have an extra freezer!! The one I have is full of ice cream :0


I'm moving towards this as well. Half kibble half raw seems more balanced in my mind, in case I screw up.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> This has been in the back of my mind for the longest time. I been thinking to feed half kibble and half raw... if the problem is they digest at different rate then it should be ok if fed at separate feeding time right ?
> How bout that honest kitchen base product ? You suppose to add the meat raw/cooked of your choice with the base right ? Is the base meal not the same as kibble ?


The HK is real, whole food ingredients minimally processed/De-Hydrated food which RE-Hydrates when you add water, so it is not kibble and the moist meat can safely be added to it.

Kibble goes through an EXTRUSION process in which it is cooked and dried out to make it crunchy:
"Extrusion is a process that has been used by the pet food industry for over 50 years. About 95 percent of dry pet diets are manufactured using the extrusion process.
Batches of dog or cat food ingredients are mixed, sheared and heated (some heated to 400 degrees) under high pressure, forced through a "spiral shaped screw"http://www.petfoodinstitute.org/images/1/pet_food_extrusion.jpg and then through the "die" of the extruder machine. There are two types of extruders, single screw and twin-screw.
_Extrudate_ is the result -- a ribbon-like product that is then knife-cut and dried." 



Moms


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

*1/2 kibble and 1/2 raw*

I switched Fiona and Gilda to premium (Candidae Limited Ingredient kibble) in the morning and raw at night. We had to make the switch, because we could only afford to buy chicken when it was on sale. Gilda hates fish, so that leaves pork and beef. We get pork on sale sometimes. I got goat once, GIlda did not like it. Darn picky dogs.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

so how much food does a pound of the base mix make ? Trying to see the cost here


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> so how much food does a pound of the base mix make ? Trying to see the cost here


never mind pls ignore my question ty


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the problem with half raw and half kibble is we tend to feed the dog all it needs in a day with kibble
then adding the raw can easily tip the scale and make them fat


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

I've spoken to two seperate breeders around feeding, both of them said the same. They feed chicken mince mixed with a kibble, they feed different types of kibble (each breeder) but otherwise I will be going with the same. 

I just found a great online store that delivers pet quality chicken mince (basically ground up chicken) that was recommended to me. I am buying 20kg in 1kg bags at about $2 a kg, plus a 16kg bag of kibble. The breeder said this should last me well over 3 months.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> the problem with half raw and half kibble is we tend to feed the dog all it needs in a day with kibble
> then adding the raw can easily tip the scale and make them fat



I only give Fiona and Gilda half the amount of kibble in the morning. Dogs are not starving. Fiona is nice and thin. Gilda has a thick body, but not fat. Although I do call her fat butt.


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## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

Leerburg seems to think that going raw then mixing in kibble is like eating healthy then having a McDonalds meal every day -- i.e. defeats the purpose of going raw:

Leerburg | Q&A Feeding a Raw Diet

Any thoughts?


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Last I remember leerburg kennels are breeders and trainers. Not vets or diet experts.

His opinions are controversial and one sided. 
I don't buy into the kibble is position mentality. I do think raw is better and more natural. But he has been known to go back on his word and theory more than once


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> Last I remember leerburg kennels are breeders and trainers. Not vets or diet experts.
> 
> His opinions are controversial and one sided.
> I don't buy into the kibble is position mentality. I do think raw is better and more natural. But he has been known to go back on his word and theory more than once


Vets know about dog food ? i thought the petfood company paid for their training or something.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Vets know what they see throughout there professional career and opinions do vary. And let's be honest the average vet knows far more than the average pet owner. 
Most vets see dogs that are fed a premium kibble diet have less problems than dogs fed a cheap kibble diet
They also see dogs suffering from malnutrition from amateurs feeding raw which is why most won't recommend it. 
My vet was discussing an issue with me about a breeder who's gsd stopped producing milk for her litter of 5 at 2 weeks. So they had to be Weened off way early because the mother was feed a unbalanced raw diet and was unable to produce milk for her young.

I'm all for raw if it's done properly. But the truth is most aren't capable or don't have the resources to do so


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Ace GSD said:


> Vets know about dog food ? i thought the petfood company paid for their training or something.


If you don't trust your vet, why would you go there?

I find a vet who can accept my feeding methodologies. Chances are, if your vet is anti-raw, any time anything goes wrong, the first response he'll have for you is "it's that raw food." Why subject yourself to that when you can choose with your dollars the kind of vet practice you support?

The exception here is small towns that don't have much choice in vet care.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

marshies said:


> If you don't trust your vet, why would you go there?
> 
> I find a vet who can accept my feeding methodologies. Chances are, if your vet is anti-raw, any time anything goes wrong, the first response he'll have for you is "it's that raw food." Why subject yourself to that when you can choose with your dollars the kind of vet practice you support?
> 
> The exception here is small towns that don't have much choice in vet care.


Oh i was just saying what everyone been saying that the pet food company sponsor nutrition education for vets. Also it seems that my vet doesnt have much to say on feeding puppies other than telling me to give large breed puppy food.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Pet food companies spend lots of thousands of dollars on research and development finding ideal vitamin and mineral numbers along experimenting with different levels of proteins/fat/carb and different meat/veggie sources. It doesn't surprise me if they did train vets in canine diet. 
There's more to dog food than mixing a few foods and selling it


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> Pet food companies spend lots of thousands of dollars on research and development finding ideal vitamin and mineral numbers along experimenting with different levels of proteins/fat/carb and different meat/veggie sources. It doesn't surprise me if they did train vets in canine diet.
> There's more to dog food than mixing a few foods and selling it


Then there's also the maximizing profit purpose. I don't think someone just woke up one day and decide from the goodness of their heart to make the best pet food without caring about the profit right ?


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Then there's also the maximizing profit purpose. I don't think someone just woke up one day and decide from the goodness of their heart to make the best pet food without caring about the profit right ?



Reputable companies don't sacrifice quality for profit. That's where it's upto the individual to decide which food they wish to purchase.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> Reputable companies don't sacrifice quality for profit. That's where it's upto the individual to decide which food they wish to purchase.


True what have u been feeding your fur kids ?


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I feed 200 gram of premium kibble in the am.
And for the pm I feed a mix of raw
Usually chicken quarter(with organs +head) with either raw egg/sardines/lamb heart.
Or small game eg quail/rabbit etc


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

im actually planning to go like you.. half raw half kibble but separate meals and eventually go all raw


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## 148298 (Jul 27, 2013)

*Raw switch*

My boy struggled through many different kibbles while a puppy and I finally made the switch to raw after he lost too much weight. I went to the vet and she said I was "over feeding him" and to cut back; he wasn't interested in that much food. . . Uhh. . You could image his weight loss after that. He started to eat every other day until he just stopped eating all together. I switched to a new food in a panic and he ate it hungrily and threw it up. 
I made the switch to raw.
He's been great ever since. No problems feeding and looks healthy with so much energy. I feed him two quarter legs a day and add raw eggs in. $10 for 10 pounds, last about 5 days. His weight is ok. I've been thinking of adding a premium kibble but I'm really tight on money and am nervous he won't eat it at all. Someone here posted something about "chicken mince".
Suggestions on feeding each a day? Seems my dog has a very sensitive stomach and picky appetite.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I wish i could go with chicken.. mine has mild allergy to chicken... so idk how to replace those bones the dogs normally have from wings, neck or quarter ..Maybe supplement


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## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

I fully converted to raw on Monday.

And this morning she laid normal poop for the first time in 5 days. They were like tiny little rabbit poop pellets. I'm shocked how small they are. So easy to clean, hardly any smell at all.

What really worked for her was getting moose meat (500 grams) and moose throat for dinner yesterday. The soft moose throat bones were perfect for her stomach and firmed up her stool nicely.

I'll keep her on moose meat + moose bones for a while for her stomach to get used to raw. Then I'll start adding in a bit of organ per week.

After that, I'll start adding a dash of vegetable/fruit juice that I grind up in the morning for myself to her meat bowl.

I figure between the meat + bones + organ + a dash of juiced vegetables/fruits + salmon oil -- most of her nutrient needs will be met.

I'll do check-ups at the vet and have them run tests every 6 months as well from now on.

I was tempted to keep her partially on Orijen 6 Fish but decided to go kibble-free.

One thing I'm noticing -- she is much more calm on raw thus far than when she was on kibble.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Press the vet -specifically what micro/macro nutrient is too much or too little? It is too easy to say 'it'll be unbalanced' -What and where?

If you are feeding half kibble the other half -raw should be balanced as well. For prey model 80% meat muscle 10% actual bone 10% organ (half liver) and as much variety as you can possibly afford.


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## Maui (Nov 6, 2014)

Hi Guys,

After some advice. I have a 9 week GSD. I am been feeding him Orijen for puppies large breed formula for a over a week. About 3 cups per day. (As per recommended dosage amount for his age) He poos however a still really runny and stink so bad.... Any suggestions...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

d4mmo said:


> Pet food companies spend lots of thousands of dollars on research and development finding ideal vitamin and mineral numbers along experimenting with different levels of proteins/fat/carb and different meat/veggie sources. It doesn't surprise me if they did train vets in canine diet.
> There's more to dog food than mixing a few foods and selling it


Quote from a business man (outside the petfood industry): "Research means: trying to make the best from the cheapest crap and market it as quality." Hmmm, reminds me of certain brands....


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Maui said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> After some advice. I have a 9 week GSD. I am been feeding him Orijen for puppies large breed formula for a over a week. About 3 cups per day. (As per recommended dosage amount for his age) He poos however a still really runny and stink so bad.... Any suggestions...


Hi Maui and Welcome! :greet:

You may want to start your own thread for this. 

Orijen has this effect on some dogs. You could try the other Champion food called Acana. 

And also add some digestive enzymes and probiotics to your pups feedings to help him digest/assimilate his food better and keep his gut healthy.
You can order from iherb which ships internationally or check out a health food store near you.
Here is an example:
*Digestive Enzymes:* Dr. Mercola, Digestive Enzymes, for Pets, 5.26 oz (150 g) - iHerb.com
*Pro Biotics:* Dr. Mercola, Complete Probiotics for Pets, 90 g - iHerb.com

Good luck with your new pup and post some pictures of him!
Moms


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

For those feeding kibble and raw, why? Why not just feed raw and eliminate the kibble?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I've heard dogs will eat their own dumps.


SuperG


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

SuperG,
Why is that?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> SuperG,
> Why is that?


Because it tastes like kibble ????

Sorry, couldn't help myself...but trying to stay on topic....perhaps "nutritional imbalance"....or other factors.....relating to the whelping stage....or it just taste better than Ol' Roy....


SuperG


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> For those feeding kibble and raw, why? Why not just feed raw and eliminate the kibble?



Premium kibble is usually over supplemented with vitamins and minerals which meat lacks. Kibble lacks the amino acids which raw meat has. So by feeding raw and premium kibble you get the vital vitamins and minerals for optimal functioning and protein for growth. 

I also have been reading in med articles that the addition of raw meat to a kibble diet makes the kibble more digestible.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

d4mmo said:


> Premium kibble is usually over supplemented with vitamins and minerals which meat lacks. Kibble lacks the amino acids which raw meat has. So by feeding raw and premium kibble you get the vital vitamins and minerals for optimal functioning and protein for growth.
> 
> I also have been reading in med articles that the addition of raw meat to a kibble diet makes the kibble more digestible.


I've been feeding my dog raw for 8/12 years, he has never had kibble. He was started on raw at 4 weeks. I worked in the Pet industry for years, for me Kibble is not an option. 

I would be careful if you feed the kibble and raw in the same meal, separate meals is ok. The kibble is designed to digest slowly causing firm stools, this can be a problem when raw is added as the raw needs to digest faster.

Do what ever works for you, supplementing with raw is certainly a whole lot better than feeding your dog kibble only. Keep in mind that most of the nutrients and vitamins are lost in the heating and extrusion process that kibble goes through. If you are feeding a well balanced raw diet, with raw bones, organ and muscle meat, IMHO supplementation is not really needed. 

It was mentioned earlier in this thread, just adding a chicken leg to the kibble diet will not be all that beneficial. You need to add the organ and muscle meat as well as the raw bones. 

I feed chicken quarters, ground beef, tripe (which is really important), beef liver, heart, a raw natural mix of muscle and organ meat. I add raw eggs including the shell two or three times per week and full fat yogurt. I also add a green "smoothie" of pureed apples, lemon, kale, romaine, spinach and banana. My wife makes a green smoothy every morning and some goes into the dogs meal three or four times a week. 

My dog is 8 1/2 years old, weighs about 82 lbs and eats about 2 1/2 - 3 lbs a day. It fluctuates slightly with the seasons and how much he has been worked. IMO, if you have the ability it is better to simply switch to all raw. I travel pretty often with my dog and travelled with two GSD's for years. It was just as easy to feed raw when traveling. 

Just my opinion, and what has worked for me and a lot of others. I can absolutely see a difference when comparing my dog to the other dogs at work. My vet bills are almost non existent, I go to the vet once a year for the few shots he gets (I'm not big on vaccines) and a checkup.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

I feed a mix of kibble and raw now. I follow the bag's instructions on the kibble amount so my girl is not nutritionally lacking and top it off with ground butcher scraps which is basically muscle meat and bones the butcher gives to me at the end of the day.

So its 2 meals a day and she eats 200g of kibble and 200g of meat and bones at each serving. Sounds like a lot but remember raw has lots of water and bone content so it isn't too much. Also she burns energy like a jet engine burns fuel, so she stays slim and lean.

The mixing thing isn't for everyone though, as some have said, kibble and raw does digest at different rates and might lead to loose poo. But not all dogs are like this, and some do take raw and kibble with no problems. Or you can use enzymes and probiotics to help with digestion.

Sometimes I would also buy those soon to be expired produce that the supermarket is going to throw out because they will meet their sell-by date soon, those are cheap as **** and won't spoil for another couple of days to a week. Those fruits, veg and meat are still fit for human consumption but the supermarket needs to get rid of them and sells them cheap.

In the end you do what works for your dog and this is it for me.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

d4mmo said:


> I also have been reading in med articles that the addition of raw meat to a kibble diet makes the kibble more digestible.


I would like to know where you read that, so far nothing suggests that mixing raw and kibble makes food more digestible from what I've gathered or experienced.
Personally I still feel this is dog-dependant, and whether you're feeding supplements which help in digestion.


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## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> I've been feeding my dog raw for 8/12 years, he has never had kibble. He was started on raw at 4 weeks. I worked in the Pet industry for years, for me Kibble is not an option.
> 
> I would be careful if you feed the kibble and raw in the same meal, separate meals is ok. The kibble is designed to digest slowly causing firm stools, this can be a problem when raw is added as the raw needs to digest faster.
> 
> ...


This is fantastic. Similar to the formulate that I have my dog on, although I do not feed raw eggs. Do you feel that is important?

And what have you noticed different from kibble-fed dogs based on your 8.5
of raising your raw fed dog? 

I only have the last 4-5 months to base my observations on but they are:

1. Less smell (except when she is in heat)
2. Less shedding (except when she is in heat)
3. Calmer & more satisfied behavior
4. Less foraging for scraps while outside and chewing on grass in the park
5. Less water drinking and thus less peeing
6. Less pooing, smaller poops

I have not been to the vet lately so I suppose I should take her in for a check-up at some point and see what they say.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

arctic,
I have noticed better muscle tone, higher working drive, better stamina, better coat, better health overall than my previous kibble fed dogs. I work my dog everyday, and he is clear headed and always wanting to perform what ever task is asked of him. I definitely see a healthier dog when compared to the other dogs in my unit. When compared to 6 - 7 yr old GSD's he looks like and works like a much younger dog. He looks and works like a 5 yr old dog. He will be 9 in March and is still going strong, for a Police K-9 and the job he does that is pretty impressive. 

Yes, there are a lot of nutrients in raw eggs and the shell. 

Yes, the stools are drastically smaller and turn to dust in a few days. 

I had a 7 year old GSD that had been kibble fed for her whole life. She had horrible allergies and ear infections and was constantly on prednisone. When I got Boomer, I switched her to raw and never fed Kibble again. My female GSD was off prednisone in two months of the raw feeding and her allergies virtually went away. That dog who suffered terribly while raw fed had a huge improvement almost immediately. At 10 years old, being raw fed for three years I had a "senior wellness test" done on her by the vet. I received a call form the vet with her blood work results. The vet said "Everything looks really good. Wait, is this dog 10 years old??? Oh my these results are fantastic for a 10 year old dog." "Wow, is this dog really 10 years old, yes her test results are fantastic!" That female GSD lived to 13 1/2 and I'm convinced would not have the length and quality of life on kibble.

I am around working dogs every day and constantly analyze and compare my dog and other dogs in terms of drive. muscle tone and working ability. I see very few dogs in the shape that my dog remains in, even much younger dogs. I know my vet bills are the lowest in the unit and my dog never has a bad day when working. I attribute this to genetics and nutrition. 

I have had dogs for many years and GSD's since 1984. I have had some great dogs, but none as healthy or hard working as the ones that have been raw fed.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

I wanted to do the premium kibble am + raw pm thing once I got my boy home at 8 weeks, but Tchaikovsky preferred otherwise. Once I introduced raw, he'd look at the kibble and then back at me like "what the **** is this??". Wouldn't touch it but inhales the raw so I've switched over 100% raw.

He's still a pup, but since switching him over he has more energy with no extreme highs or lows, smells so good, coat is super shiny, and has regular and awesome stools. My vet is happy with his growth too. 

I wish he liked kibble because I'd like something non-perishable to take with me on holidays, but he's doing so well on raw and so I'm happy. It's more work for me as I'm still getting used to it, but I think for my dog's individual needs it's the best way to go. Plus, I want him to actually be enjoying his meals!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

aceK,
You make a very good point that I should touch on. Dogs fed a raw diet with protein and fat do have more consistent energy. Dogs fed kibble that is high in carbs need to be fed twice a day to maintain their blood sugar levels. I feed raw twice a day but have been to seminars by MWD vets and they have mentioned the need to feed dogs, especially the ones fed kibble twice a day to maintain consistent energy levels. The dogs fed raw did not need this as much to maintain consistent energy. Dogs do not utilize carbs like we do, they actually have little to no use for carbs. Carbs are simply a cheap filler in dog food. Dogs utilize fat for energy in a similar way that Humans would utilize carbs. 

I have travelled across most of the US with my dogs, with two raw fed GSD's. I find it just as easy to travel and feed raw as I did when I travelled and fed kibble. I pack food in coolers, then I go to the grocery store and buy fresh chicken quarters, beef and liver. I have never had to worry about getting food for my dogs when traveling as long as I pass a grocery store at some point in my trip. 




aceKeturah said:


> I wanted to do the premium kibble am + raw pm thing once I got my boy home at 8 weeks, but Tchaikovsky preferred otherwise. Once I introduced raw, he'd look at the kibble and then back at me like "what the **** is this??". Wouldn't touch it but inhales the raw so I've switched over 100% raw.
> 
> He's still a pup, but since switching him over he has more energy with no extreme highs or lows, smells so good, coat is super shiny, and has regular and awesome stools. My vet is happy with his growth too.
> 
> I wish he liked kibble because I'd like something non-perishable to take with me on holidays, but he's doing so well on raw and so I'm happy. It's more work for me as I'm still getting used to it, but I think for my dog's individual needs it's the best way to go. Plus, I want him to actually be enjoying his meals!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Slamdunc said:


> I pack food in coolers, then I go to the grocery store and buy fresh chicken quarters, beef and liver. I have never had to worry about getting food for my dogs when traveling as long as I pass a grocery store at some point in my trip.


ha! I pack coolers and then pass grocery stores. I always wonder why I packed a cooler when there is a store right there.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

@Slamdunc great info! It makes sense 100%, on kibble he would get this massive energy surge that would make him almost uncontrollable, and then 20 minutes later he'd be comatose for the next 1-2 hours. On raw he is up for some focused engagement, play, or training at any time of the day. My parents raised 4 GSD litter mates in their day, and also rave about the raw diet for consistent energy levels and general health (I couldn't imagine trying to manage 4 X young GSD pups on an energy high!).

Coolers - what a great idea! Come to think of it, my dad has a car fridge that we used to take on family road trips, I'm sure that would do the trick too in the less populated areas (outback WA!)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> ha! I pack coolers and then pass grocery stores. I always wonder why I packed a cooler when there is a store right there.


Jax and AceK,
I have a whole system for my raw food for trips. In the past I travelled to Fla several times a year with my dogs. I would weigh each meal and put them into ziplock bags, I would freeze them depending on what day they were for. The frozen food would keep everything else in the cooler cold, in two days they were starting to thaw and were fed. I would then use the fridge for the food during the week. It got to the point of packing enough for the ride and just going to the grocery store and buying fresh food. Heck, I was already at the grocery store buying beer……. It wan't even an extra trip.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I did that too when I went to Kansas and then on to Texas. Then I started buying commercial raw that I could just pack in patties. Last trip I decided enough and I'm doing the grocery store from now on!


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## arctic (Jun 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> arctic,
> I have noticed better muscle tone, higher working drive, better stamina, better coat, better health overall than my previous kibble fed dogs. I work my dog everyday, and he is clear headed and always wanting to perform what ever task is asked of him. I definitely see a healthier dog when compared to the other dogs in my unit. When compared to 6 - 7 yr old GSD's he looks like and works like a much younger dog. He looks and works like a 5 yr old dog. He will be 9 in March and is still going strong, for a Police K-9 and the job he does that is pretty impressive.
> 
> Yes, there are a lot of nutrients in raw eggs and the shell.
> ...


.
Again, really amazing testimonial based on your background and experience. Thank you for sharing


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## ssgarden (Dec 17, 2014)

Riley is 5.5 mos and we had been feeding just a "veggie mix" with prem. kibble. Just started introducing raw meats with the veggie & kibble about 6wks ago. 

Veggie mix is spinach, peas, green beans, apples, banannas, carrots, celery & raw eggs (shell 'n all) - large batch made in food processor and then frozen in smaller quantities. 

Been giving raw chicken meat cut off of the leg in am, a ground beef (90% lean)& ground turkey meatball at lunch, and a chopped up chicken thigh or sm. breast at dinner. He gets this raw meat with the premium kibbles recommended amount. Eventually will go all raw, but during this time of growth I feel best keeping the kibble in the diet. We also add Pro-bios and salmon oil once a day.... vet says he is in excellent condition and his weight is spot on.

Just throwing my two cents out there for anyone interested. Enjoyed reading this thread... good info.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

Any of you who feed raw have a dog with an allergy to chicken? I would love to try raw but not quite sure where to start especially since my Ivan can't eat kibble with chicken in it.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

NVM my question...I just found the stickies, duh!


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Jax and AceK,
> I have a whole system for my raw food for trips. In the past I travelled to Fla several times a year with my dogs. I would weigh each meal and put them into ziplock bags, I would freeze them depending on what day they were for. The frozen food would keep everything else in the cooler cold, in two days they were starting to thaw and were fed. I would then use the fridge for the food during the week. It got to the point of packing enough for the ride and just going to the grocery store and buying fresh food. Heck, I was already at the grocery store buying beer……. It wan't even an extra trip.


Hey Slamdunc.....Just have a couple of questions. I have a 4 month old Male GSD .weighs approx. 32 lbs. I'm wanting to switch him to raw. Right now I feed him meat and vegetables with flaxseed and fish oil but I cook it slightly. I also add about a half a cup of kibble to two meals (he eats three times a day right now My concern first is bacteria with raw , not for him but for the humans in the household. Secondly, you mention bones in the meal, do you chop them up ..or chop up the chicken parts? Or do you give them the chicken quarter whole? I'm just not quite sure how to present it to him ..
Thanks in advance


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Artic,
Thanks! 

ssgarden,,
I also add ground beef but I add 80/20 or even 70/30 to my dogs diet. I buy 10lb tubes of 80/20 "fine ground" beef. Keep in mind that dogs need fat for energy and 90/10 may not be enough fat, especially in the winter. It is also cheaper. 




Christieb24 said:


> Hey Slamdunc.....Just have a couple of questions. I have a 4 month old Male GSD .weighs approx. 32 lbs. I'm wanting to switch him to raw. Right now I feed him meat and vegetables with flaxseed and fish oil but I cook it slightly. I also add about a half a cup of kibble to two meals (he eats three times a day right now My concern first is bacteria with raw , not for him but for the humans in the household. Secondly, you mention bones in the meal, do you chop them up ..or chop up the chicken parts? Or do you give them the chicken quarter whole? I'm just not quite sure how to present it to him ..
> Thanks in advance


Christie,
Regarding your concern with the bacteria in the raw meat and your family, I simply use the same safe handling techniques with the raw chicken for the dog that I do with the raw chicken I cook for myself. 

When dealing with any raw meat, whether for the dog or for your human family the safe handling practices are the same. Anything the raw meat touches is cleaned, cutting boards, bowls, utensils, etc. Same as when cooking raw food for dinner. I do not feed my dog in the house, I feed outside in his kennel or he can eat in the yard. 

I feed whole leg quarters to my dog. The bone is an essential part of the diet. As a pup, I would feed chicken necks and wings, the 3 section large wings and then moved to chicken thighs with the bone. I do not chop up the bone, the dog is well equipped to do that.

Feeding vegetables are good, I add a green smoothie to my dog's diet a couple of times a week. We have one several times a week and share with the dog. 

If you add fish oil you also need to add Vitamin E as well.


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Artic,
> Thanks!
> 
> ssgarden,,
> ...


Thanks so much for the info  I was also told NOT to add kibble to the raw because the kibble cancels out the nutrients in the meat? What are your thoughts on that? 

Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc:

Ok...duh....I re-read most of this thread and you already answered the kibble/raw question....thanks Jim


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

How do they cancel out nutrients in meat? 
There's a lot of information that is misleading. 
Have a read on the forum, there is lots of good articles and info


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

d4mmo said:


> How do they cancel out nutrients in meat?
> There's a lot of information that is misleading.
> Have a read on the forum, there is lots of good articles and info


Where did anyone say it would cancel out the nutrients in meat?

The question was if meat is added to kibble would it create an imbalance. And yes, it could. Kibble is a fully balanced meal. Meat is not a balanced meal. To much meat not balanced with bone, organ would create an imbalanced diet.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

See post 63

"I was also told NOT to add kibble to the raw because the kibble cancels out the nutrients in the meat? What are your thoughts on that"


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Where did anyone say it would cancel out the nutrients in meat?
> 
> The question was if meat is added to kibble would it create an imbalance. And yes, it could. Kibble is a fully balanced meal. Meat is not a balanced meal. To much meat not balanced with bone, organ would create an imbalanced diet.


I didn't read that in this forum. I was told that by a lady who breeds GSD's...sorry to not be clear


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

d4mmo said:


> See post 63
> 
> "I was also told NOT to add kibble to the raw because the kibble cancels out the nutrients in the meat? What are your thoughts on that"


awww...missed that. yeah, not a logical argument.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Christie,
I would not feed kibble and raw together because they digest at different rates. Kibble is digested much slower than raw food and fed together they can cause a bacterial bloom in the stomach. Raw food needs to digest fast and a dogs digestive system is designed to digest food quickly. 

People do feed both together, it is not something that I would do. Then again, I only feed raw.


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Christie,
> I would not feed kibble and raw together because they digest at different rates. Kibble is digested much slower than raw food and fed together they can cause a bacterial bloom in the stomach. Raw food needs to digest fast and a dogs digestive system is designed to digest food quickly.
> 
> People do feed both together, it is not something that I would do. Then again, I only feed raw.


Slamdunc:

I started him on raw 4 days ago and other than bit of bowel upset he seems to be doing fine on it. Mostly ground beef so far but he's also had turkey necks and a couple of chicken wings. I DID add the vitamin E but not sure if it was a coincidence or not but he threw most of his meal up. Not sure if there is any correlation between the Vit. E or not but I'll maybe just put less in until he's used to it. ( I gave him one 400G capsule.opened and squeezed into his dinner) Oh and I've taken him right off the kibble. Hoping he is getting enough nutrition being a puppy still. A breeder told me to add a multivitamin? Is that something you think I should consider?
Thanks for all your help btw...it's much appreciated , me being a raw food noobie..lol

Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

*The right age to start raw feeding*

Good Morning.

I just returned from my vet where I mentioned I was feeding my 4month old GSD Raw. She STRONGLY suggested I take him off because she said its extremely complicated to feed him the right balance of calcium and phosphorous to assure he's having his nutritional needs met.
I'm just confused because I obviously want the best for him and I'm not happy about the thoughts of having to back him off raw and return him to a kibble diet, which I might add he doesn't enjoy.
I need some help here please? Is he too young? Or should I continue.
F.Y.I Following some good advice from Slamdunc I feel I have most of his needs covered .. He eats chicken wings, ground beef, turkey necks as a treat .I put Fish Oil and Vitamin E in his meal along with FLaxseed Oil and Coconut Oil and Egg three times a week with the shell. I try to give him some leafy greens , Kale and Spinach along with carrots and green beans. Very few carbs and I also put Yogourt in his dinner a few times a week.
He's a healthy 32lbs and very lean ..full of energy and seems very healthy.
His spirit is good and he's a fun loving delightful puppy that just loves everyone he meets. Old and young lol .
If anyone can add anything to my diet for him it would be much appreciated. Thankyou in advance

Christie


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Most vets are against raw. I'm lucky in that mine is fine with it as long as a person has done their research. And I follow up with chem17's periodically to check baselines.

I was not comfortable feeding a home made raw for a growing pup. Many people are but I wasn't. It was easier for me to feed a commercial raw that I knew was balanced. What you are now feeding is very similar to what I feed mine as a 1 yr old. If you are truly worried about it, you could contact a nutritionist to create a meal plan for you.


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Most vets are against raw. I'm lucky in that mine is fine with it as long as a person has done their research. And I follow up with chem17's periodically to check baselines.
> 
> I was not comfortable feeding a home made raw for a growing pup. Many people are but I wasn't. It was easier for me to feed a commercial raw that I knew was balanced. What you are now feeding is very similar to what I feed mine as a 1 yr old. If you are truly worried about it, you could contact a nutritionist to create a meal plan for you.


Hey Jax I"ve actually been considering the commercial raw just until he's around a year...I'm just afraid I'm not giving him enough of what he needs to be healthy..thanks for your reply..appreciated


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## Elsieb (Apr 9, 2014)

Our boy was fed raw for his first 14 months but I couldn't continue with it. The tubes of frozen stuff are gross to me (have been life long vegetarian) and the sanitization of my kitchen was a continuing worry. He also refused the tubes a couple of times and that was all the encouragement I needed to put him on Fromm dry kibble. He also gets a lot of extras as husband is a big steak and meat eater. We go to 2 vets in the same practice. One does not agree with raw, the other gives his dog a raw chop or meat once a week as he does feel it adds to the diet. That is what we are doing now. Once a week or so he gets about 8-10 oz of raw beef.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Christieb24 said:


> Hey Jax I"ve actually been considering the commercial raw just until he's around a year...I'm just afraid I'm not giving him enough of what he needs to be healthy..thanks for your reply..appreciated


I was happy with the Bravo Balance and it took the worry out for me. The only thing I would add to your pup's diet is Vit C (in addition to the supplements you are giving now). My breeder seems to be a big believer in C.

Then I gave him a chicken foot at night to chew on and clean his teeth up. 

Upside! You can make meatballs out of the commercial raw to use for training for his meals.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Christieb24 said:


> Good Morning.
> 
> I just returned from my vet where I mentioned I was feeding my 4month old GSD Raw. She STRONGLY suggested I take him off because she said its extremely complicated to feed him the right balance of calcium and phosphorous to assure he's having his nutritional needs met.
> I'm just confused because I obviously want the best for him and I'm not happy about the thoughts of having to back him off raw and return him to a kibble diet, which I might add he doesn't enjoy.
> ...


Hello Christie, 
First, It has been my experience that most vets know very little about nutrition and what they learn comes from the large dog food manufacturers. 

Next, there are a great deal of very good topics on this forum explaining how to formulate a well balanced raw diet. There are many very knowledgeable raw feeders that post on this forum. This place is a very good resource. 

One thing that I think you are missing is the organ meat. Organ meat is very important, just as important as the raw bone in a raw diet. The ground beef is a good source of muscle meat but not very nutritionally complete on it's own. I add calf liver and tripe as an essential part of my dog's diet in addition to all of the other ingredients that you mentioned. You can add chicken liver, gizzards, etc as well. The tripe has the perfect calcium to phosphorous ratio and is a super food for dogs. But, it must be the green tripe that is raw and unbleached. Not the bleached tripe that you find in the grocery store. The turkey necks are very good as are chicken backs for the bone. 

The real key is just getting a feel for it. You can find all the ratios of bone to meat, organ to muscle, etc on this forum. In the beginning I drove myself crazy with balancing everything out. Now, I can "eyeball" my feedings and make sure that over the course of a couple of days the dog gets everything eh needs. Fore example, my dog may not get liver every day, but he gets it several times a week. 

The Kale, spinach, carrots and broccoli are very good but must be pureed to be absorbed by the dog. The green vegetables are very high in calcium. 

Yogurt and cottage cheese are very good, I use the full fat versions, not 1 or 2%. Remember dogs need fat for energy. 

You are doing great! The only thing I would increase is the organ meat, especially the liver and tripe. 

Happy New Year!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Chtistie
Slamdunc is right about vet nutrition knowledge. The vet schools are supported and even taught by companies like Hills, Iams, and Purina.

Both of our dogs, now 8 and 6 years old, have been fed raw since they were 3 weeks old. 

Many breeders start their pups on raw at 3 to 4 weeks old! But YOU have to be comfortable with it. If you continue putting the raw together yourself, I would add a *"whole food"* multi-vitamin called *K9 Feed-Sentials* which was developed specifically for raw fed dogs. You can purchase it here: From Canada: Feed-Sentials Nutritional Supplement 
OR here: From USA: http://animalnature.net/animal-nature-product-listing.html 
phone: 412 723 2194 Jason

Good luck!
Moms


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I use honest kitchen then just add meat and it looks like a perfect alternate for kibble. I'd love to hear what you guys think of this.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have been feeding Rafi prepared raw (Bravo Blend) for about 6.5 years. He just had bloodwork and all of his levels were excellent and my vet was very pleased. He does get a lot of supplements that are mostly for his joints and digestion. I think it is worth it to find a vet who is pro or at least neutral on the raw diet. Both of my vets here have been fine with it because the proof was in my animals' health. 

My cats have been on Bravo Balance since I adopted them 3 years ago. They are also doing great, despite a rough start to life.


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Hello Christie,
> First, It has been my experience that most vets know very little about nutrition and what they learn comes from the large dog food manufacturers.
> 
> Next, there are a great deal of very good topics on this forum explaining how to formulate a well balanced raw diet. There are many very knowledgeable raw feeders that post on this forum. This place is a very good resource.
> ...


Hey Jim thanks so much for the response...I copy paste all your posts so I can refer to them easily lol. I DO give him organ meat I failed to put that in my post tho. He gets calves liver and chicken hearts and beef kidney usually on an average of every other day. I'm going to call the butcher and see if he has any tripe . The one thing the Vet mentioned most was that " perfect calcium to phosphorus ratio" so the tripe will help with that I'm sure. Oh and you mentioned to puree the vegetables , this I didn't know either so thanks for that also. 

Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi Chtistie
> Slamdunc is right about vet nutrition knowledge. The vet schools are supported and even taught by companies like Hills, Iams, and Purina.
> 
> Both of our dogs, now 8 and 6 years old, have been fed raw since they were 3 weeks old.
> ...


Hey Mom Thanks for the response...I was so relieved to see how young yours were when you started raw feeding. I really don't want to turn him back to dog food for 6 months, he seems so healthy on what he is eating now. I will look into the vitamin. I did ask my Vet about that but she poo pooed that idea too lol said it still woundn't give him the perfect balance he needs.  I think I'm gonna stick with it tho because his stomach and such has just returned to normal on raw and I think changing him up will just be another few days of upset. 
Thanks again
Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> I have been feeding Rafi prepared raw (Bravo Blend) for about 6.5 years. He just had bloodwork and all of his levels were excellent and my vet was very pleased. He does get a lot of supplements that are mostly for his joints and digestion. I think it is worth it to find a vet who is pro or at least neutral on the raw diet. Both of my vets here have been fine with it because the proof was in my animals' health.
> 
> My cats have been on Bravo Balance since I adopted them 3 years ago. They are also doing great, despite a rough start to life.


Hey BowWow

I"ve heard a lot of good things about the BravoBlend and I would definitely consider it if it turns out he's not doing well on what I'm feeding him. I do worry abit about his joints , with displacia being such a predominant problem with shepherds. He gets sweet potato glucosamine treats a couple of times a week but maybe I should look into something more sustaining. 
Thanks so much
Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Elsieb said:


> Our boy was fed raw for his first 14 months but I couldn't continue with it. The tubes of frozen stuff are gross to me (have been life long vegetarian) and the sanitization of my kitchen was a continuing worry. He also refused the tubes a couple of times and that was all the encouragement I needed to put him on Fromm dry kibble. He also gets a lot of extras as husband is a big steak and meat eater. We go to 2 vets in the same practice. One does not agree with raw, the other gives his dog a raw chop or meat once a week as he does feel it adds to the diet. That is what we are doing now. Once a week or so he gets about 8-10 oz of raw beef.


Elsie
I sure know what you mean about it being gross lol For me its the organ meat...yuck!! hahaha but he LOVES it so I suffer  I think I'm learning that If you dog is healthy and he likes his food its ok to do whats best for you. I'm sure he doesn't mind sharing your husbands steak either  

Thanks
Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I was happy with the Bravo Balance and it took the worry out for me. The only thing I would add to your pup's diet is Vit C (in addition to the supplements you are giving now). My breeder seems to be a big believer in C.
> 
> Then I gave him a chicken foot at night to chew on and clean his teeth up.
> 
> Upside! You can make meatballs out of the commercial raw to use for training for his meals.


Hey Jax
Max loves turkey necks ..he about loses it when he sees me go to the freezer..lol so funny.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chicken feet are The Bomb here. I have to be careful I'm on my feet when I say those words or I'll end up with 2 dogs on top of me.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Christie,
You will not be able to get raw, green tripe from your butcher. You can find it online from several retailers. I get mine form Blue Ridge Beef. You can try Oma's Pride and K-9 Kravings for good complete raw diets as well.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Christieb24 said:


> Hey Mom Thanks for the response...I was so relieved to see how young yours were when you started raw feeding. I really don't want to turn him back to dog food for 6 months, he seems so healthy on what he is eating now. I will look into the vitamin. I did ask my Vet about that but she poo pooed that idea too lol said it still woundn't give him the perfect balance he needs.  I think I'm gonna stick with it tho because his stomach and such has just returned to normal on raw and I think changing him up will just be another few days of upset.
> Thanks again
> Christie


My Pleasure!

Christie, what is the name of the Sweet Potato and Glucosamine product you are giving your pup? Some of these are from China and you need to be VERY careful of WHERE the treats originate! It can say "Made In The USA" but that doesn't always mean the the ingredients were SOURCED there. They can say "Made in USA" it they are put together here but the ingredients could come from anywhere! Needs to say "Made & Sourced" in the USA or Canada or New Zealand, etc.

Moms


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> My Pleasure!
> 
> Christie, what is the name of the Sweet Potato and Glucosamine product you are giving your pup? Some of these are from China and you need to be VERY careful of WHERE the treats originate! It can say "Made In The USA" but that doesn't always mean the the ingredients were SOURCED there. They can say "Made in USA" it they are put together here but the ingredients could come from anywhere! Needs to say "Made & Sourced" in the USA or Canada or New Zealand, etc.
> 
> Moms


[ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Loving-Pets-Natural-Glucosamine-Chondroitin/dp/B002YKQG9I[/ame]
This was recommended to me by a breeder....I hope its ok....


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Christie,
> You will not be able to get raw, green tripe from your butcher. You can find it online from several retailers. I get mine form Blue Ridge Beef. You can try Oma's Pride and K-9 Kravings for good complete raw diets as well.


Oh ok...thanks Jim...I will try both of those...I'm in Canada...so if it takes a bit to ship is that ok? I guess I can try to find somewhere closer by...appreciate the suggestion though 

Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Chicken feet are The Bomb here. I have to be careful I'm on my feet when I say those words or I'll end up with 2 dogs on top of me.


lmao...I had the visual of you being bombarded by a host of hungry dogs... That's too funny


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You may be able to get tripe in Canada. The U.S. is a no unless it's thru a dog food company


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You may be able to get tripe in Canada. The U.S. is a no unless it's thru a dog food company


Yea thanks Jax ...I was just googling that...I'm sure there is some place here I can get it...I'll let you know


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Christieb24 said:


> http://www.amazon.ca/Loving-Pets-Natural-Glucosamine-Chondroitin/dp/B002YKQG9I
> This was recommended to me by a breeder....I hope its ok....


SOME of their products are USA made/sourced (see other statement about their products below). It's worth a phone call or email and ask specific questions about where each ingredient of what you are feeding is coming from.

Quote: "The treats listed below are our current Made in the USA offerings. Check back often because we are always launching new Made in the USA treat lines."


*Barksters® Krisps* – Farmed and made in the USA dog treats. Low in fat, only 12 calories per treat. 9 varieties.
 

*Grill-icious™ pure meat treats* – Farmed and made in the USA dog treats. Bite sized and awesome! Beef, Chicken or Turkey.
 

*It’s Purely Natural™* – Farmed and made in the USA dog treats. Delicious pure meat or meat and fruit or veggie combos.
 

*Natural Value™ Meat Treats* – Proof that farmed and made in the USA meat treats can be affordable. Yummy Natural Value treats are available as Tenders (chicken, duck), Meat Sticks (chicken, duck, beef), and Sausages (chicken, duck, beef). These soft-chew treats are perfect for dogs of any age or size.
 

*It’s Purrfectly Natural™* Chicken and Beef Lung varieties – Farmed and made in the USA cat treats. One simple ingredient.
And this: Loving Pets Welcome to Loving Pets Quote "5. Where are your Gourmet treats made? Most of our treats are made in South America and Asia. In particular, our Gourmet treats are made in China." 

Now, they do have USA testing in place, but so did Milo's, Waggin Train, and Canyon Creek and their products still caused many deaths in recent years. 

There are some high quality Glucosamine/Chondrotin supplements that you could give instead. But, the Chicken Feet that Jax is talking about has more bio-availability of these ingredients!
"Chicken feet and beef windpipes (good source of naturally occurring glucosamine and chondroitin) Raw chicken feet are one of best and most rich source of glucosamine/chondroitin. 2 feet 3 times a week contains more glucosamine/chondroitin than 15 supplement pills, and it's 100% bio-available." 


IMHO the following treats are a MUCH better choice or you can make your own with real, fresh, meat!

*Bravo Bonus Bites:* are 100% all meat, and made from all natural, antibiotic-free, grain free meats and organ meat protein sources.
Example:_ "Dry Roasted" Buffalo Liver: _Ingredients Grass-fed buffalo liver.
_"Freeze Dried Treats" - Venison Liver:_ Ingredients Grass-fed venison liver.
*
Bravo Training Treats:* Made from 100% muscle and organ meats and real Vermont Cheddar Cheese. Contain no grains, fillers or unnecessary additives of any kind. Perfectly sized to be held between two fingers for easy hand-to-dog feeding. 
Example: "Turkey Bites" - Ingredients: Turkey thigh meat.
Example: "Trail Mix" - Contains the following - Ingredients: Turkey Bites: turkey meat Buffalo Bites: buffalo heart Hot Dogs: *beef**, water, sea salt, celery juice and/or celery powder, sodium lactate, spices, Onion powder, garlic powder, paprika. **beef* used was never administered antibiotics or growth hormones. Vermont Cheddar Cheese: Pasteurized milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzyme. Usually available at "Pet Supply Plus" chain stores. Find a location: Pet Supplies Plus : Home Page 

*The Honest Kitchen Treats* Locate a store: Where to Buy Honest Kitchen - Honest Kitchen Stores | The Honest Kitchen
*Beams*: a natural dehydrated fish dog treat! They’re made from pure, wild-caught Atlantic Catfish* skins, from the clean ocean waters of Iceland, dried into savory, chewy sticks. They’re guaranteed to satisfy the pickiest of pups and are the perfect treat alternative to dried chicken snacks or bully sticks. Beams, like all our products, contain no Chinese ingredients!
*Nuzzles*: made with duck & cherries.

Hope this helps!
Moms


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> SOME of their products are USA made/sourced (see other statement about their products below). It's worth a phone call or email and ask specific questions about where each ingredient of what you are feeding is coming from.
> 
> Quote: "The treats listed below are our current Made in the USA offerings. Check back often because we are always launching new Made in the USA treat lines."
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the info Mom I will look into the chicken feet I think...I just want to make sure he gets what he needs...I appreciate your help

Christie


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi Chtistie
> Slamdunc is right about vet nutrition knowledge. The vet schools are supported and even taught by companies like Hills, Iams, and Purina.
> 
> Both of our dogs, now 8 and 6 years old, have been fed raw since they were 3 weeks old.
> ...


Hey Mom...I just had a question about the K9- feed-essentials..Would I still give the fish oil and coconut oil ...I also give him flaxseed because his skin is so dry..just don't want to over dose him  thanks


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Christieb24 said:


> Hey Mom...I just had a question about the K9- feed-essentials..Would I still give the fish oil and coconut oil ...I also give him flaxseed because his skin is so dry..just don't want to over dose him  thanks


Hey Christie!
I got a better idea for ya!
A companion product to the K9 Feed Essentials that has everything you need for an oil in ONE bottle!
*"Sh-Emp Oil -* a blend of deep cold-water herring oil, organically grown cold pressed hemp seed oil, organically grown hand pressed extra virgin coconut oil. The herring oil is a source of brain enhancing DHA/EPA, which can be converted by the body into Omega 3. Hemp oil is a source of Omega 6, 3, 9 and GLA (Gamma Linoleic Acid). The virgin coconut oil found in Sh-Emp is a medium chain triglyceride rich in lauric acid. It provides both nutrient and functional value."


Since I started feeding our 8 year old female the whole line of the Feed-Sentials supplements several months ago, she has turned back into a puppy! It has been amazing to witness!

Look into the quality of your fish oil and make sure it is a NAMED fish.....not just "fish oil", which could be any mix of fish and poor quality.

If you choose to continue to feed flaxseed oil, purchase cold pressed that you'd find in the refrigerated section of a health food store. It does go rancid quite quickly so buy one small bottle at a time.

Moms


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## Christieb24 (Nov 11, 2014)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hey Christie!
> I got a better idea for ya!
> A companion product to the K9 Feed Essentials that has everything you need for an oil in ONE bottle!
> *"Sh-Emp Oil -* a blend of deep cold-water herring oil, organically grown cold pressed hemp seed oil, organically grown hand pressed extra virgin coconut oil. The herring oil is a source of brain enhancing DHA/EPA, which can be converted by the body into Omega 3. Hemp oil is a source of Omega 6, 3, 9 and GLA (Gamma Linoleic Acid). The virgin coconut oil found in Sh-Emp is a medium chain triglyceride rich in lauric acid. It provides both nutrient and functional value."
> ...


LOL well I guess I should of checked this earlier..Regardless, I got the K9 essentials. its like a straw like substance LOL the only way I can get it into him is hide it in his Tripe.  I give him Salmon Oil and the flaxseed IS refrigerated when you buy it. I'm just wanting to make sure he's getting all the essentials he needs to grow up healthy and strong. He DOES have some problem with itching which he has had pretty much since we got him. That is one of the reasons I took him off kibble and canned food, but the itching has continued. I have been told that chicken is the most likely problem so for now I've cut chicken out of his diet to see if it helps...its only been two days so no great results yet. If it isn't the chicken I'll try the beef next. I feel bad for him itching so much , so I have to find out what it is. Any suggestions at all? BTW...for supplements he also gets Vit E Coconut oil , turmeric an egg 3 times a week and sardines on the alternate days. I've even been told to try ACV (apple cider vinegar) in his water a few times a week to help with the itching...nothing has worked so far..and just in case you ask YES I have flea bathed him and hes had Advantage from the Vet..thanks Mom..I appreciate your help


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Christieb24 said:


> LOL well I guess I should of checked this earlier..Regardless, I got the K9 essentials. its like a straw like substance LOL the only way I can get it into him is hide it in his Tripe.  I give him Salmon Oil and the flaxseed IS refrigerated when you buy it. I'm just wanting to make sure he's getting all the essentials he needs to grow up healthy and strong. He DOES have some problem with itching which he has had pretty much since we got him. That is one of the reasons I took him off kibble and canned food, but the itching has continued. I have been told that chicken is the most likely problem so for now I've cut chicken out of his diet to see if it helps...its only been two days so no great results yet. If it isn't the chicken I'll try the beef next. I feel bad for him itching so much , so I have to find out what it is. Any suggestions at all? BTW...for supplements he also gets Vit E Coconut oil , turmeric an egg 3 times a week and sardines on the alternate days. I've even been told to try ACV (apple cider vinegar) in his water a few times a week to help with the itching...nothing has worked so far..and just in case you ask YES I have flea bathed him and hes had Advantage from the Vet..thanks Mom..I appreciate your help



It will take some time, possibly 6-8 weeks for a dog to totally purge the toxins from their system. Note too that he may go thru a "Detox" or a "Healing". Now that you’ve changed to raw, those “toxins” have to somehow escape the body. Dogs could show upsetting signs such as drainage from the ears and/or eyes, vomiting, diarrhea, stool that will smell SO bad it would make the strongest stomach urp! Stool with strange colors, mucousey stool, discharge from the penis or vagina, body smelling like last weeks garbage, bad breath, ITCHING….even MORE than he was itching before, licking himself, and, even detoxing thru the skin and possibly getting open sores. Flea items contain toxins and those types of products can even Cause itching (see label). Make solution of 50/50 ORGANIC Apple Cider Vinegar and purified water. You can spray him with this daily and also can be used as an after bath rinse. Just don't rinse it off and let him drip dry. It will help with the itching!

Good luck and keep up the good work!
Moms


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## onyxkaiser (May 21, 2014)

I feed premium kibble in the mornings and raw meaty bones (wings, thigh cutlets, drumsticks etc.) in the evening. 

My boy is 10 months old and 37kgs (81lbs), and still looks rather skinny. His stools aren't sloppy, nor are they rock hard and crusty - they're in between. 

I haven't had an issue so far.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I feed the highest quality dry food I can find. On Sundays I tend to go with the raw. I'm not fond of mixing both foods in one day because of the way its digested so differently.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

What is the best kind of food to feed?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> What is the best kind of food to feed?


I feed Farmina.


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