# Hee Haw



## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

I wanted to share some Schutzhund joy with you all and then what I realized after seeing a real maturation in my dog.
I mentioned in an earlier post that due to my rural location our local sheriff can't always be at our church quickly when the alarm goes off. (45 mins to 1 hr.) We have lost three safes and broken into 4 times. I volunteered to do a building search with my pastor with my older female who will bark and bite only if really threatened and my 1.5 year old male to help clean out the building. The male has been going thru the church almost weekly tracking as a game, playing with kids and searching for imaginary bad guys.
This Sunday well before anyone was there we had someone the dog didn't know stage a fight out side of the building and run into the building. I fired up the male during the fight and then proceeded to take the path that I would use to clean out the building. When the male saw the supposed bad guy he went ballistic and we had the BG run away twice. Both times the male responded like he was supposed to never backing down. This is a major victory and a reassurance that all the bite work training I am doing for SCH is applicable to real life situations. I have heard so many condescending remarks about SCH dogs. Chunk wasn't in his usual sleeve biting mode as my trainer has pointed out the fight drive shows when he has no sleeve on and the prey drive comes out when he sees the sleeve... I plan to talk with him tonite to make sure I'm not hallucinating. 
I realized (after experiencing SCH glee) that he really is a working dog and all due respect to the environment was always necessary. No longer is it just a fantasy to have a dog that bites and can protect your safety. Much like owning a gun there is a tremendous amount of responsibility with its operation and handling.
Phil


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

I am surprised by the lack of input here, (not said with any disgust or attitude) As a relative newbie to SCH am I doing something that is considered taboo for SCH or sport training? We have worked together for almost a year now and I am thrilled with his progress from a fearful puppy to a confident self assured young male. I hope to get his bh this summer and in late fall start trialing for the 1. 
Thanks for your input..
Phil


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## jbdarow (Sep 22, 2008)

Bolt the safe to the floor.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*Sounds awsome*

Sounds like you have every reason to be proud. Not a sch participant myself, but do like training our girls and can imagin how proud I would be with your results.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

It's always wondering and validating to see all your hard work and training pay off. Good for you. I am not a SCH enthusiast but have a lot of respect for the sport and related sports like IPO, french ring and mondio. Frankly, the more I learn about those sports the more interested I get. Maybe some day...

Thanks for sharing your experiences.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks all for your responses I appreciate them, as a way of encouragement I can say with out reservation that Schutzhund is a really enjoyable way to train your dogs. It develops incredible obedience and team bonding with a dog like I've never experienced before. The dog thrives on it as well so it's a win win situation.
JB.. I had to chuckle when I read your response, we learned that lesson with the first theft and then the second two were bolted/welded into the floor. We stopped having cash in the office for a while but there is a new safe and a much better alarm system.

I would really be interested in responses from some of you who are participating in SCH and if you are doing something like that... and what you have done different in your training that helps both types of protection...

Thanks again...
Phil


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honestly. I would not do this. Who carries the liability if the dog actually finds someone and their training fails and they bite them? You? The church? Who will pay the medical bills if there actually is a bad guy in there and they shoot, stab you or your dog? Plus, what if there is someone in there, and your civilian self goes in and messes up evidence?

You are not a LEO. You should not be acting as one. If you are a newb to the sport( as I am) I would not be putting together training excersises without the guidance of your TD. 

But that is just my opinion. I am glad you are happy with your boy and he is maturing well. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

* The male has been going thru the church almost weekly tracking as a game, playing with kids and searching for imaginary bad guys.*
how do you teach the dog to discern between a kid and an imaginary bad guy? or another adult and a bad guy
or the janitor and a bad guy?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Chunksdad,
It is very rewarding to set up a training scenario and have it go well. I would caution you to be very careful and remain objective. One scenario with a "decoy" that is told to "run away" is a whole lot different than confronting a determined bad guy that is willing to fight and injure both you and your dog. I don't mean to be negative or take away from your hard work and accomplishments with your dog. It is a lot of fun to do building clearing and searching with a dog. At the same time you must be very careful, there is a lot of liability in what you are doing. If you are going in to the church to search for "bad guys" are you giving proper warnings? What if an innocent person is in the church with out any one's knowledge, it happens all the time? What if they get bit? What if a homeless person is in there to get out of the cold or the rain, are you going to allow your dog to bite some one for trespassing? 

The other issue is: what do you do if you or your dog actually finds a burglar in the building? I can guarantee you right now, and I will bet you dollars to donuts that your dog does not engage a passive person. The fight scenario is one thing, a real life bad guy hiding under one of the pews will not be bitten by your dog. If you were local to me, I'd go in the building with out any equipment and prove this to you. The best you can hope for right now is that the SchH training kicks in and the dog does a hold and bark alerting you to the bad guys location. What if there are several suspects inside? Are you armed, trained and proficient with a firearm and building clearing tactics yourself? 

I don't want to come off too harsh or negative, but this is what I do for a living. You really need to be careful for several reasons. You don't' want an innocent person getting bit, suspects need warnings and the ability to surrender. There are several SCOTUS decisions on this and you will be liable if you do not give warnings. Certain crimes do not call for a dog being released, like trespassing for example. There are many cases on the Use of Force and many relating directly to K-9's and dog bites. Another very large concern is the likelihood of encountering a person committing a felony. Then what happens? Are you and the Pastor going to fight it out until the Police arrive? Do you have the means to take a person (s) into custody? Building searches can be very dangerous, especially with out proper back up and a proven (many real bites proven), tough as nails dog. 

Just some things to consider. I will say, after all that….I like the training that you are doing. But, please do it under close supervision with an experienced K-9 guy. Not even a sport trainer for building searches.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

GSDSAR Diesel & Jim: (Sorry in advance for writing a book)

Thanks for your input and concerns, I appreciate it. Much of what you have written here has crossed thru my thoughts at one time or another during these last few months. I have had conversations with several city and county police officers, a lawyer, a police chief of the largest city near me (pop. 300k+) and my trainer to work out a plan to help my church avoid further robberies. I am sorry that this took a while to get back to you I had written in a reply several times but got timed out and when I logged back in the input was lost. It seemed like when I got timed out my free time was out so I decided to write it another time… This time I have learned my lesson and am writing this in a word doc and will paste it in. I have tried to address some of your concerns and suggestions, but as always your feedback is appreciated.
I have been training my 1.6 y/o male with Kreative Kennels for close to a year now. As best as possible I train there twice a week and occasionally train at another club strictly for SCH. If you take a look at KK’s web site you will see that although he does SCH well, he is primarily a K9 training facility. (He is also the Trainer for Alameda Co. SCH Club.) KK has dogs all over the US and internationally as well. We are doing small step training making sure that Chunk has a very solid foundation for SCH and eventually PP. During Chunk’s training he does gun/noise, night/day container- small building training, and various bite work exercises. Greg (TD) has built him into a confident and at times fearless dog. This is not to say that we haven’t had to regroup and start over with the basics again to get it into his head but we always seem make progress. Make no mistake though, I know that he is a "Green" dog.

The female GSD that will be accompanying us is my “mistake” SCH dog. She is bred for K9 work and has that personality. Around the house she is the suspicious one who is reticent to accept strangers until I do. I am hoping that she will agitate Chunk with barking and the two of them (with some commands for them) will be intimidating enough to stop any aggressive actions. Although I live in a rural ag. community, I have lived in fairly high crime areas in the Bay Area (San Jose) and have dealt with intruders in the past. (Definitely not making me an expert or officer.) As a young college student I was a security guard for a department store chain’s warehouse. We had jewelry, furs and expensive clothes and on usually the most inconvenient nights I would get called to open up the facility and walk thru it with the local PD. 
As for the person who is in the building late at night or early in the morning without our foreknowledge, I understand. There won’t be a fear release, intimidation bark or any type of aggressive behavior on our part if we come upon an intruder. Calm is the best approach as any law enforcement official will tell you. This belief got me thru a PCP infused intruder in my house unharmed… (My first shepherd had some motivational influence on his behavior but every one survived the intrusion unharmed.) I will release the dog (s) as a last ditch effort only, for mine or my pastor’s safety. At no time will a passive intruder or homeless person be attacked just because he is in the building. I currently work for a local homeless mission in a very high crime area. Common sense, wisdom and some help from Above will prevail. The homeless will be taken to shelter if the offer is accepted. The working dog to me is similar to a gun, you can never get the bullet back so be really sure that you are in mortal or close to mortal danger if it goes off. I understand the warning issues and we will announce their presence when we are searching each room.. That includes our yelling “Stop Hitting My Dog, hold still” should a bite take place. He does out well but I haven’t experienced a live bite where his fight drive is totally in control yet. 
Lastly to address the dog’s personality, they are both socialized around children, adults and other dogs. When we train in the church with people there his reward for searching or tracking is to be able to chase the ball thrown by kids. I would never bring him in to a situation if he had just done a bite or aggression work to be around any one at the church. I am 99% sure that he would play too rough with some of the younger kids but biting is not one of my fears. He comes into my office with me occasionally on Fridays, is not fearful around the homeless, has a mellow personality around people as a secret lap dog and has been taken to all sorts of places to meet people. He is a very happy, well balanced dog that is safe around people until the switch is turned on. 
Jim- I want to especially thank you for the time and reality check for me in your post. I will draw on your experience and training when talking with my TD. BTW, your comments aren’t perceived as being harsh, I am grateful for your input….
Thanks again to all………………….. Phil


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

wow
you read all of slams post and are still going to do it 
get ready for lawsuits is all i can say


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks Diesel, I appreciate your input.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Phil, 
Let me know if I can be of any help.

*The working dog to me is similar to a gun, you can never get the bullet back so be really sure that you are in mortal or close to mortal danger if it goes off*

Actually, of all the tools and weapons on my belt, i.e. OC spray, Taser, and my firearm the dog is the only one that I can recall after deploying. I can't get OC spray back in the can, the Taser or a bullet back before it hits some one, but I can with my dog. The dog is also the only tool or weapon that I have that can not be taken away from me and used against me.

I will add that a dog is not lethal force, and if I am in mortal danger or even close to it, I won't be using the dog. That is why I have a rifle and a handgun. You know the old saying "You don't bring a knife to a gunfight." Well, I'm not bringing my dog to a knife or a gun fight. AS good as he is, he's not the right tool for those jobs.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks Jim.. I hope I didn't come across like I was going into the building looking for a bite. As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome. My choice is pretty simple, someone has to go thru the building when the alarm goes off, the local sheriff is way too slow, it can’t be open season on anything else in the church like thousands of dollars worth of electronic equipment etc. I won't mess with the crime scene, I have a dog (or two) to warn me if he senses an intruder that I don't see and another cool head to make sure that neither of us make a dumb life threatening decision. Guns, knives etc. are the equalizer and it’s not my instinct to go up against them unless I am protecting my family. As a former martial artist, in a past life as a young man I knew when to back down or off as the case may be. I work with felons of all types in my job now and am not intimidated enough to make irrational decisions in a high anxiety situation. (Not being arrogant, we have a 3 strikes law here that makes our 3rd felony a much more dangerous confrontation.) My hat goes off to all in law enforcement who put their lives on the line each day receiving very few responses of gratitude. 

Diesel, meaning no disrespect or holding no animosity for your last comments, I mean what I said about “Thanks for your input”… But what type of training do you do with your dog? (BTW if he is who is on your avatar he’s a great looking dog) Are you involved with SCH or PP? Have you ever been in a situation where a trained or untrained dog has protected you from a real villain? All my GSD’s are from working backgrounds and are bred for intelligence, balance and fearlessness. It’s almost genetically programed into them and as I progress farther into training I realize what a team you become. I have also been involved with the business end of the dog in training on and off the sleeve. Bark and bite threats can be pretty intimidating to someone who doesn’t know that side of dogs. In reality this is all I can hope for from my male. 

I hope that helps, I know that this is not a risk you would choose to take, thanks again for your input.. I don't take the comments of others on the forum as slams.. probably not a good idea to couch them as such. Constructive criticism, fear based comments, but not slams.. that implies a pretty high level of immaturity on the commentor's part, why don't you reread Jim's input and correction it might help you to put it in proper perspective.. If you haven't visited GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPIES FOR SALE - PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - FAMILY PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - POLICE DOGS FOR SALE - GERMAN SHEPHERDS FOR SALE I suggest you do so.. thanks



Phil


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*Thanks Jim.. I hope I didn't come across like I was going into the building looking for a bite. As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome. My choice is pretty simple, someone has to go thru the building when the alarm goes off, the local sheriff is way too slow, it can’t be open season on anything else in the church like thousands of dollars worth of electronic equipment etc. I won't mess with the crime scene, I have a dog (or two) to warn me if he senses an intruder that I don't see and another cool head to make sure that neither of us make a dumb life threatening decision.*

Your welcome. I can certainly understand the need to respond and check the building if the alarm goes. If the response time from your PD or Sheriffs Office is that slow, then you need to check the building. 

*As a peace officer you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome*

Well, although you don't go into a situation looking for a violent outcome, as a Police Officer you need to be constantly prepared for a violent encounter. Even a simple traffic stop can turn deadly in seconds, that is a fact of life for a Police Officer. If you aren't prepared for a situation to turn violent you are well behind the eight ball when it does, that is the reality of the job. 

I teach the "Officer Survival" week of training in our Academy for recruit classes. I also teach a two day "patrol tactics" class for Patrol Officers and Supervisors. A large part of this training is how to safely and effectively clear a building with 2 or 3 Officers. I developed this class after seeing a need for Officers to be retrained on building clearing tactics with limited man power. On SWAT, we have ample operators and extra training to move through a building and methodically clear it as safely and tactically as possible. Seeing the need to teach seasoned Officers new tactics and move away from the "complacency" that the job creates is what concerns me with what you are doing. Again, I understand the need to check the Church and I commend you for it, but being safe is what it's about. A few thousand dollars worth of electronics is not worth getting someone hurt or killed over. 

Here is what I would recommend: If you have an alarm, pay attention to the indications. One indication probably means that it is a false alarm. This happens all the time on stormy, windy nights. One exterior alarm is generally a false alarm, but you can't just assume that. Multiple indications such as a glass break sensor, interior motion in several places and other rooms or doors, generally means that some one is inside. Multiple alarm indications are usually not false alarms. 

I would pull up to the church and park a safe distance away, killing your lights before arrival. I would walk the entire perimeter of the church with the pastor and your dogs. I would be keenly aware of your surroundings, making note of anything unusual. Cars in the parking lot, a garbage can in front of a window, etc. I would check all of the exterior doors and windows to ensure they are all locked. If you come across an open door or window than you have cause for concern. You will need to quickly determine if the door has been forced open or simply left unlocked. 

If you think the door has been forced open, i.e. pried or kicked in. Then I would call the Police and update and advise them of what you have. Next, I would stand by outside with the pastor. Position your selves on opposing corners of the building where you each can watch 2 sides of the building. Take a position of cover and concealment where you can't easily be seen by some one inside, preferably a spot that can stop bullets if need be. Then stand by and wait for the Police to arrive. If someone is still inside, the longer they sit in there the easier it is for a Police K-9 to find them. If you find evidence of "forced entry" there is no need for you to even enter the building. Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up. There is no rush to get inside and confront the suspect. Try to remain out of sight and not even let them know that you are there. Stay on the phone with the dispatcher and give them updates. If you have seen movement inside, license plates of cars in the parking lot, description of the suspect if you can them. All of that information prepares the arriving Officers for what they are responding too. Let them know how many people are with you and where you will be. Don't run up to the Officers when they arrive .

If you have only one indication and see no signs of forced entry, all the doors and windows are secure, it could simply be weather related. In that case, I might go inside and check the building. Give your warnings and turn all of the lights on as you enter rooms. There is no need to rush into rooms. Wait a second, listen, send the dogs in just before you enter the room. Have a plan just in case you encounter some one. You give orders to the suspect while the Pastor calls the Police for instance. 

I think if you check the exterior first, make note of the indications, call the Police if you find an open door or window and then wait on the perimeter you should be good to go. If everything appears secure, then carefully enter, but always expect to find some one behind every door and in every room. We never mind responding to alarms calls and checking the building. If you find an open door, they will up their response and you won't be waiting quite as long. Remember to provide them with all the information that you can, they may even call for a K-9 unit to assist if one is available. 

Just my 2 cents,

Jim


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Jim:

Thanks for the valuable information, I really appreciate it. It just so happens that today I met the watch commander for the local sheriff department. He has some suggestions too which I will talk about after I pursue them. I am hoping the answer will be as simple as he says and that will take a lot of pressure off me for pushing my dog into this before he is really ready.. I'll keep you posted, thanks again for your input, the last email was really great.

Phil


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Phil,
Good deal. Talking with the watch commander is a great idea. Letting the guys in that precinct know of the issues will go a long way. Let me know if I can be of any help.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up. *
great advice

no i do not sch train and if i was going to i would not go to kreative sorry

however i can see tons of ways sending a dog into a building can go bad and even end with the death of the dog

recently a police k9 was choked by a suspect 
many die each year even when not shot 
they are stabbed beaten and choked 

just wouldnt put my dog in that position even if he was trained
i would not put myself in that position either 
suspects go on to sue police stations for being bitten and those guys and their dogs are actual officers

i enjoyed slams posts here 
thank you for that


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I haven't read all the posts but based on your dog barking at a guy running away you think he would protect and bite? Why not tell the guy to put on a hidden sleeve, throw a chair at the dog and then charge it to try to get out the door? That could be a real scenario correct? 

Saying a dog would work in defense and bite just because it has a fierce bark is a far stretch.

Plus if you want a ppd dog why are you currently training in schutzhund? Shouldn't you do stuff more geared towards real fights and not so much prey?


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> *Stand by and wait for the cavalry to show up. *
> great advice
> 
> no i do not sch train and if i was going to i would not go to kreative sorry
> ...


Thanks again for your input... Not quite as fearful as your posts seem to make you appear... Don't ever want to put the dog in a sacrifice position.. Keep up the inputs, they really are pretty funny when you consider the source... 
BTW smart guy.. Kreative has put over 100 dogs in service in the last couple of years, if you were to pick a trainer you couldn't go wrong... If you want a pc trainer for a happy home pet that's great, keep up the good work, you got a great looking dog...

Boom.. Thanks for your input too, I'll take you seriously... 
He already does a lot of bite work with aggressive training now, he has bitten in both a dark shipping container at night and one during the day. Seeing a villain or td not on the field is nothing new for him. He has taken an aggressive bite at a TD with a 9m semi shooting rapidly and didn't even blink... When he works he has three modes, defensive, fight and prey drives. The sleeve brings out the prey drive, a bare arm brings out the fight drive and defensive mode is usually turned on by a fight for the sleeve or tug. Body language and facial expression are the key to recognizing which mode he's in. If I had let him go after the test decoy he would have gone in for a serious bite. The reason we did it the way I discribed was to build his confidence... Baby steps are the best method to building a confident working dog for either sch or pp.

Chunk is going to be a Sch. dog but as he gets a little older he will be a dual purpose dog... Sch is still the basis for a good PPD and while "WE" are enjoying it we will keep on titling. I know that the purists say that is isn't possible but at this point I'm not sure I buy that completely... Both sides to that argument have merit so I'd rather not bring out some of the self righteous purists to turn this into a free for all thread hijacking.
Above all I trust my td and his staff because of the great results I and many other dog owners have receive from him... (This year's nationals had two participants who train with Kreative) I will post a couple of pics from last week's training session...
Thanks again to both of you for your input... Rebuttals with respect are always welcome..

Phil


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I agree sch is a good foundation for ppd but imo at some point the dog should stop thinking it's a game of chase and catch. What if the intruder was wearing a puffy jacket that looked like a sleeve? 

If the intruder runs away do you plan on sending the dog after the guy? That would not end well for the dog (or you) in the eyes of the law. 

Either way I already feel bad for the guy that tries to break in. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I'd love to see some real world training scenarios (videos) if you are willing and have permission to share?


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> I agree sch is a good foundation for ppd but imo at some point the dog should stop thinking it's a game of chase and catch. What if the intruder was wearing a puffy jacket that looked like a sleeve?
> 
> If the intruder runs away do you plan on sending the dog after the guy? That would not end well for the dog (or you) in the eyes of the law.
> 
> Either way I already feel bad for the guy that tries to break in. Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I'd love to see some real world training scenarios (videos) if you are willing and have permission to share?


Hi Boomer.. thanks again for the input.. Good point about chase and catch, if it has to happen, subduing-submitting is the goal. Chunk will really fight because he has been trained to fight for the bite and hold on. In the case of a real bite a quick out and guard is the best hoped for result if I have to send him... How ever as I have said in earlier posts, I will go to great lengths not to send him..
The objective is to intimidate and either make him run away in which case I will not send him or submit for an arrest and cuff him. Having a second person with me at all times is critical to our general safety and to be corroborating witnesses in case it goes to court. Having a gsd on a 15' long line and harness doing what he enjoys using the bark and hold command should intimidate all but the most hardened bg's. When there are two agitated gsds the chance of a physical reprisal are lessened exponentially. Should the confrontation take a violent and dangerous downturn we both (the other human with me) would do the best to get ourselves out of danger. 
In an earlier post Jim brings up so great points as to when you can send and not send a dog. You also can't have a re-bite, once the bg has submitted and when the dog has released he can't bite again. I am really no expert and don't claim to be.
Most of my training is basic protection in Sch mode, the container, guns etc are occasionally thrown in so that he doesn't get into a routine. I will probably post some of the videos later on in the year thru but I just got the camera and have to learn it first. Shortly we will be biting in the church since the chase was successful. I might try to video that.. I am sure that watching a flirt pole work out, blind search and bite or transport with a young dog won't really be that interesting but I will probably post it later on..
Thanks again...

Phil


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