# point chooser



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

So I see a lot of time people recommend doing "a" instead of "b" in the case that "x" happens in a trial, because you lose less points doing "a".

For a very obvious example: if the dog is running back to you on dumbbell retrieve and is coming in a little crooked, you obviously would rather him sit crooked then move your feet because it should be 0 points if handler moves, whereas you only lose a few points if dog comes in crooked. This was just a very obvious example to drive home the point of this thread. 

Now, I know points are not the end all be all of schutzhund trials. But, I thought it could be a good idea to start a thread with specific questions regarding which of the two options will lose more points.

So, I can start... 

In my IPO1 trial, C phase, I send the dog to blind 5. Dog starts veering towards blind 6 (i.e. skipping 5) because of my training first and foremost but also because he saw the helper go into blind 6. I gave 2nd command almost immediately and dog runs to blind 5 and then 6. What would be more points deduction? Giving second command, or letting dog skip blind 5? 

I know the whole search is just 5 points, but it's one example where I wasn't sure which is better.

So, feel free to answer this question and if you are relatively new (as I am) feel free to post your own questions.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I love this topic! Will be watching closely for other stories and helpful answers! 


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> In my IPO1 trial, C phase, I send the dog to blind 5. Dog starts veering towards blind 6 (i.e. skipping 5) because of my training first and foremost but also because he saw the helper go into blind 6. I gave 2nd command almost immediately and dog runs to blind 5 and then 6. What would be more points deduction? Giving second command, or letting dog skip blind 5?
> 
> I know the whole search is just 5 points, but it's one example where I wasn't sure which is better.
> 
> So, feel free to answer this question and if you are relatively new (as I am) feel free to post your own questions.


 OK I think in IPO1 level you did the right thing, -2 for extra command or -5 for not running any blinds..... This changes some for IPO3 when the blind search is 10 points, -2 for skipping a blind, -2 for extra command....-4 if you give the second command and he still skips the blind...so if you are going to give the extra command, be sure he is going to do it.

This is also part of being a handler, if I let him skip blinds do I loose control later....Or as I had a softer dog, If I gave a strong second command, then he was worried, better fot me to loose the 2 points and have him go into the blind feeling strong.....So part is knowing the points, but part is also knowing your dog 


Frank


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How about slight handler help Vs. the dog missing the sit, down or stand in motion? I am talking maybe a shifting of the shoulder, slight hesitation in the pace, type of slight help. Not talking about what one of our members did on the stand when they reached down and put their hand on the dog's chest.  -5 pts for missing the exercise Vs. ? points for the slight handler help.

Or, allowing the dog to go early on the send out instead of giving a second command to stay in the heel? 

Another one I have seen. Handler outing the dumbbell almost immediately once dog is in the front position instead of waiting the 3 seconds. This is in the case of dogs that like to turn dumbbells into kindling.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

lhczth said:


> How about slight handler help Vs. the dog missing the sit, down or stand in motion? I am talking maybe a shifting of the shoulder, slight hesitation in the pace, type of slight help. Not talking about what one of our members did on the stand when they reached down and put their hand on the dog's chest.  -5 pts for missing the exercise Vs. ? points for the slight handler help.


Handler help is not a set deduction. It will go into the overall picture of the exercise and effect the rating, very slight may only know it to high very good, -.5 or maybe a little more help low SG -1. Heavy Handler help maybe knocks it to Good -1.5 to -2 pts... But the rules also say that if the judge deems that the dog would not have done the exercise without the help ALL points are lost....



lhczth said:


> Or, allowing the dog to go early on the send out instead of giving a second command to stay in the heel?


 
This I would absolutely just give the command and try to hide it that the dog was leaving early, too small a buildup is a VERY small deduction, leaving early on own will be a effect the overall picture, how early, 2 steps short or handler says foss and dog takes off...But for me I would hide it if possible take the small hit and have the dog go fast...





lhczth said:


> Another one I have seen. Handler outing the dumbbell almost immediately once dog is in the front position instead of waiting the 3 seconds. This is in the case of dogs that like to turn dumbbells into kindling.


 Again the overall picture, you can tell when it is the dog is going to have wood chips flying out of his mouth or just the handler is nervous... Club trial it would range from -1 to -3... Championship it is flat out faulty, handler did not show 3 seconds and I would know it 2 catagories for skipping a big part of the exercise.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Long down is a spot where it's good to know the point break down (how far the dog can move for X-deduction, how long it has to stay still before it can break and still earn points, etc).


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Long down is a spot where it's good to know the point break down (how far the dog can move for X-deduction, how long it has to stay still before it can break and still earn points, etc).




*If dog breaks long down before the end of IPO1 ex 3, IPO2 ex 4, IPO3 ex 5 by more then 3 meters, 0 points…..If after the completion of those exercise then partial points are awarded accordingly. The dog can move up to 3 meters without it being considered as "broke the down". However depending on how much it moves will effect the overall rating of the exercise and result in a according point deduction...If the dog moves around a lot the down could still be considered insufficient but not all 10 gone, anything over -3.5 is insufficient.*


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

How timely! Just talked about this during a trial last weekend. Dog was sent for the send out, didn't go the whole distance, turned & stood there looking at me(didn't give a second command as I knew she wasn't going any further). I waited, for the judge to cue for the down...and waited... finally just told dog to down & she downed right away. 
The discussion was about if I should have just downed her as soon as she stopped & turned rather than waiting for the judge.
Having never been in that situation before, I was a bit flustered at what to do chose to wait for the judge to cue for the down, rather than giving the command to down on my own.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What did the judge say about it during your critique? I think you did the right thing!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you, Frank.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I had a dog stop, look at an article, look at me - wait a few seconds, and go merrily down the track.....I should have given her a plaitz command and lost points for the command instead of the whole article....

Lee


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I had a dog stop, look at an article, look at me - wait a few seconds, and go merrily down the track.....I should have given her a plaitz command and lost points for the command instead of the whole article....
> 
> Lee


 Well...... If you give a command you do loose ALL the points for the article anyway... Me, I would give the command loose all the points, but maybe save the points if he downs on the next one.



Frank


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

northwoodsGSD said:


> How timely! Just talked about this during a trial last weekend. Dog was sent for the send out, didn't go the whole distance, turned & stood there looking at me(didn't give a second command as I knew she wasn't going any further). I waited, for the judge to cue for the down...and waited... finally just told dog to down & she downed right away.
> The discussion was about if I should have just downed her as soon as she stopped & turned rather than waiting for the judge.
> Having never been in that situation before, I was a bit flustered at what to do chose to wait for the judge to cue for the down, rather than giving the command to down on my own.


 
It depends on how far the dogs went before he stopped. The dog MUST go a minimum of 30 paces. 

FCU Rules:

c) Evaluation: Mistakes in the development, handler (HF) following the dog, too slow of a go out on the dog’s part, strong deviation to the side, too short of a distance, hesitant or premature downing, restless down or premature standing up/sitting are valuated accordingly.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> Well...... If you give a command you do loose ALL the points for the article anyway... Me, I would give the command loose all the points, but maybe save the points if he downs on the next one.
> 
> 
> 
> Frank


I probably should have done that on Saturday, lol. 


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I probably should have done that on Saturday, lol.


 
:laugh: I would have....maybe it would have been 87 instead...

Next time....That's why we trial, so we know what to do differently next time...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

schh3fh2 said:


> Well...... If you give a command you do loose ALL the points for the article anyway... Me, I would give the command loose all the points, but maybe save the points if he downs on the next one.
> 
> 
> 
> Frank


Is that new? Dean told me I should have given the down to save points...
I am terrible at tracking - my brain stays in the truck!

Lee


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Is that new? Dean told me I should have given the down to save points...
> I am terrible at tracking - my brain stays in the truck!
> 
> Lee


 No this is not new....

From FCI rules:

Articles that are done with strong handler help are considered to be overrun. This would be the case for instance, if the dog does not indicate the article and the handler either by use of the line or through
verbal command hinders the dog from continuing to track.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What's the penalty if your dog does the wrong finish during the retrieve? Like, the finish was performed correctly, but the dog does two different ones (recall - goes around the back, flat retrieve - flip finishes, jump and a-frame retrieves - around the back).


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Question. Isn't handler help always handler help - not matter what the variation, slight or more? It is still done because the handler knows the dog will not do (or possibly not do) the exercise without the help. 

Serious question - So, what is the definition of slight versus other and how is the range calculated? And how is it deducted consistently across all exercises and all handlers?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> What's the penalty if your dog does the wrong finish during the retrieve? Like, the finish was performed correctly, but the dog does two different ones (recall - goes around the back, flat retrieve - flip finishes, jump and a-frame retrieves - around the back).


 
Nothing.... Rules say about turns must stay consistant but they do not say anything specific about finishes.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> Question. Isn't handler help always handler help - not matter what the variation, slight or more? It is still done because the handler knows the dog will not do (or possibly not do) the exercise without the help.
> 
> Serious question - So, what is the definition of slight versus other and how is the range calculated? And how is it deducted consistently across all exercises and all handlers?


 
This is a great question Sue...also very difficult to do because it is an opinion. The judge has to decide how much he/she feels the help influenced the dog in that perticular exercise and the deduction will follow the opinion. Help could be a 1/4 pt to ALL points... The rules say if the judge feels the dog would not have done the task without the help then all points are gone.....


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Frank,

Thank you. I think this thread is important, as a lot of people do not take the time to review the rules, understand the points and the judging.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sue, :thumbup:


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

On tracking, what if the dog gives a false indication? How many points will that be? I have seen my dog do it once or twice in the past year, but anything he has done before I wonder if he'll do again. I'm going for IPO2 shortly and was wondering what does a false article indication mean and what I should do. Should I wait it out and hope he'll restart himself or restart him? 

Thanks!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

From the rules:

If the dog indicates a false object or interrupts his tracking work by lying down, sitting or standing still it is faulty and a point deduction is incurred. 

Lying down on the track by the dog does not have to be considered a false indication. If the dog, at the handler's command from a distances of 10 meters, continues to work, only two points are deducted. This is not considered a false indication. However, if the handler approaches the dog this is analogous to a false indication and up to four points will be deducted.

IPO1-3 the deduction is 4 pts. 
FH1/2 the deduction is 3 pts.


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