# Agility Course of the Week - Sequence 3



## MaggieRoseLee

This is gonna blow Wildo's mind... being female I am using my chance to change my mind...

I want to work on the letter C Drill! Forget that silly A thing!!!

OMW Knife River Bud Houston's Blog












> I had taken note in the earlier drills that the spacing between obstacles is in the range of 17′ to about 18′. This is the kind of spacing you’re likely to find in the USDAA these days. NADAC calls for an evenly spaced 22’ between obstacles; the AKC and CPE require a minimum of 20′ between obstacles. The only venue that actually allows (demands) spacing tighter than this, is the TDAA where the _big_ dogs are 12″ and 16″.
> 
> I’m not one to engage in histrionics, waving my arms around about “unsafe conditions” and so forth. Fact of the matter is, when the spacing is tighter you need to be keener in your timing and own skills like pre-cuing your intention to turn. The USDAA is not a venue for lollygaggers. That’s for sure.
> 
> Most of the alphabet drills are on a blank canvas so you don’t see the gridlines in background to understand the correct spacing. You _could_ use the CRCD path tool to calculate a funky dog’s path (never believe the CRCD dog’s path).


More ideas of sequences


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## wildo

Oh this will be a fun one. Thanks for posting MRL!


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## wildo

********deleted cause I changed my mind....


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## wildo

I am so confused about what is happening in this thread.


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## kbella999

This will be a good course to work on layering, distance and speed.


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## wildo

And crosses.


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## wildo

So... What's your focus with this sequence, MRL? I ran it as posted- that sure was easy. What are you looking to accomplish? What _specific_ skills are you looking to grow? Are you looking for bounce jumps between jumps #1 and #2, and between #4 and #5? Are you looking for distance sends to #3? What skills are you wanting us to focus on?


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> So... What's your focus with this sequence, MRL? I ran it as posted- that sure was easy. What are you looking to accomplish? What _specific_ skills are you looking to grow? Are you looking for bounce jumps between jumps #1 and #2, and between #4 and #5? Are you looking for distance sends to #3? What skills are you wanting us to focus on?


I want us all to be perfect in every way, every day. 

And our dogs... 








\

Wildo, I like the video you posted because it's a good way to tell if you are weaker doing front OR rear crosses. Because we need both but tend to have one we lean on more.


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## kbella999

I ran this last night (sorry no video). I added an extra off-course jump west of jump number 3 to make it a little more interesting. I definately had to be on top of things with my handling to keep Jerry Lee from taking the off-course jump. When he gets up speed he is all about taking whatever jump is in front of him. I also did some layering and even my velcro girl Rusti successfully completed that. 

On another note, can we have whoever is next go ahead and post their course so that we always have at least 2 active courses going to help keep things going. Just an idea, what do you think Wildo?


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## MaggieRoseLee

kbella999 said:


> I ran this last night (sorry no video). I added an extra off-course jump west of jump number 3 to make it a little more interesting. I definately had to be on top of things with my handling to keep Jerry Lee from taking the off-course jump. When he gets up speed he is all about taking whatever jump is in front of him. I also did some layering and even my velcro girl Rusti successfully completed that.


Love that you've tried it out already and even added a challenge. Did you work with both front and rear crosses???


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## kbella999

Sure did. Did front and rear crosses on 1-5 and the same running it 5-1. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Love that you've tried it out already and even added a challenge. Did you work with both front and rear crosses???


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## MaggieRoseLee

kbella999 said:


> Sure did. Did front and rear crosses on 1-5 and the same running it 5-1.


Were both equally easy for you? For your dog?

Did you have jumps at full height or a bit lower for training?


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## wildo

kbella999 said:


> On another note, can we have whoever is next go ahead and post their course so that we always have at least 2 active courses going to help keep things going. Just an idea, what do you think Wildo?


I think that's a great idea! The more the merrier!


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## kbella999

They were both fairly easy. Front crosses work better for Jerry Lee but he can do rear also. As for jump heights, they were at full height but some times during practice I will vary jump heights, some set at 20, 22, 24 and throw in a 16 so that he doesn't get lazy in his jumping. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Were both equally easy for you? For your dog?
> 
> Did you have jumps at full height or a bit lower for training?


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## MaggieRoseLee

If you get a chance to watch thru this video, there are more ideas to do with same series of jumps.


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## TaraM1285

wildo said:


> I think that's a great idea! The more the merrier!


I can have a course ready to post tomorrow. I don't have course designer, though, would someone be generate a course from my hand drawn course to post?


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## wildo

I also don't have a course designer, but I have photoshop and could build the course for you. Feel free to send me a PM.


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## kbella999

Great! You can download a free program called Inkscape and design courses using the pdf that you download with it. Here is a link. Free Dog Agility Course Designer | Agility iMap I can also generate a course for you if you don't want to download it.



TaraM1285 said:


> I can have a course ready to post tomorrow. I don't have course designer, though, would someone be generate a course from my hand drawn course to post?


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## wildo

Wow- works in mac too! Interesting solution!


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## wildo

Here's my video for the week:


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wildo, great video.

Have you ever rear crossed on the landing side of a jump? So as the dog lands you move behind them along the jump they just went over to turn them 'late' as compared to crossing on the take off side?

So at 1:39 you'd cross behind her as she lands after jump #2. You tuck right between her rear and the jump. 

You may also work on having that 'soft' and well as a 'hard' rear cross. Generally I also use the hard rear to get a sharper turn. That said, on a full course I'm sometime just not able to keep up with my dog and if there's a turn on the course and I'm behind those 'soft' crosses come in handy 

As usual, love how fast/fun your both run the courses.


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## wildo

Lately I've been running courses with a goal of staying ahead of my dog. I prefer the front cross, though I see the need for rear crosses as well. I don't see a need for landing side rear crosses though, as I think they provide information to the dog way to late. I _could_ have done a landing side rear cross after jump #2, and I do think Pimg would have responded to it, but it's not something I care to bank on. I'd rather get my front crosses more accurate and on time. I'm going to that Steve Schwarz seminar near the end of this month and am excited to learn more about proper front and rear crosses.


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## kbella999

Good job Wildo on the video. I'll try to video us running it tonight. I also have been trying to run courses with the goal of staying ahead of my dog. Sometimes that means distance skills, me running faster, or just changing the way I would handle a course. I've also cut out a lot of my verbal commands which has been working very well.



wildo said:


> Lately I've been running courses with a goal of staying ahead of my dog. I prefer the front cross, though I see the need for rear crosses as well. I don't see a need for landing side rear crosses though, as I think they provide information to the dog way to late. I _could_ have done a landing side rear cross after jump #2, and I do think Pimg would have responded to it, but it's not something I care to bank on. I'd rather get my front crosses more accurate and on time. I'm going to that Steve Schwarz seminar near the end of this month and am excited to learn more about proper front and rear crosses.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

I can't see the videos for some reason...
I actually set this course, along with a few off course obstacles, so I'll be running it this weekend and will post a video. I wish I could see what sequences people ran though.


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## wildo

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO- try clicking here for my video.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Thanks, but it must be my computer because all of the videos on YouTube are black. I'll try restarting.


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## wildo

kbella999 said:


> I also have been trying to run courses with the goal of staying ahead of my dog. Sometimes *that means distance skills*, me running faster, or just changing the way I would handle a course. I've also cut out a lot of my verbal commands which has been working very well.


I think the distance skills are key! The way I think about it is if the agility greats like Garrett, Mecklenburg, and Sanders (notice I didn't pick ultra fit- ultra young handlers like Trkman, Damm, and Jen Crank) can keep up with their border collies who are running perhaps twice as fast as Pimg, then there really isn't a decent excuse for me to not be able to handle my dog from the front. When I watch those masters running their dogs, what I see from every single one of them is (amongst other things) amazing distance work. They rarely run up to jumps like I do. They can send there dog many, many, many feet away to obstacles which allows them to position themselves for front handling. It's just another skill to work on. We'll get there...


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> I don't see a need for landing side rear crosses though, as I think they provide information to the dog way to late. I _could_ have done a landing side rear cross after jump #2, and I do think Pimg would have responded to it, but it's not something I care to bank on. .


Landing side rears ROCK! They are a great skill to have in your training tool box, specially when you are doing such a great job getting your dog to go fast. 

Actually this setup shows why. Particularly when you did it first, and NOT later when you worked out how to get your front cross in better (actually really well).

Because there are times on courses I do that I can't get ahead and in place for that front, at least not for the first and only time we are on the course at a trial (though I may figure it out in my yard later in the week :wild: ). So if the course DOES put you on the left of your dog going into a curve of jump, and you can't get the front in between jump 1 and 2 (pretend this is in the middle of a longer course) you have to give your dog information for the change of direction to turn your dog to the right while you are on their left.

If there is an off course jump/equipment in front, the cross on the landing may be too late and I could get an off course (specially if a tunnel was staring at my dog ) but if there's nothing but space, the cross on the landing is perfect because it give the dog info on the turn that is NOT tight so they flow into it to continue on course.

The faster our dogs, the more we need in our bag of tricks. Specially realizing we may be behind them (though I think you are right to try to work out the course to be ahead as much as you can). 

Not sure what venue you will be trialing in the most, but I know that in AKC some judges really try to have a stretch or so on the course where our dogs can run (leaving us in the dust  ) and absolutely will put us on the wrong side to finish up. So figuring out ways to show a turn from behind can be valuable with both the soft rears and crosses on the landing side.


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## wildo

MRL- will we get a video of this course with your dogs? I'm hoping to see it!


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## kbella999

Here is my video. It got dark pretty quick. I wanted to try doing a fc between jump 1 & 2 like Willy did but ran out of time. Had a couple knocked bars at jump 5. I think it was to close to the fence. GSD Forum course 3 - YouTube


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## wildo

kbella999 said:


> Here is my video. It got dark pretty quick. I wanted to try doing a fc between jump 1 & 2 like Willy did but ran out of time. Had a couple knocked bars at jump 5. I think it was to close to the fence. GSD Forum course 3 - YouTube



I had mine set up very close to the edge of my patio, and also had a few dropped bars at #5. I didn't include them in my video, because being right up on the edge of the patio isn't really fair, and was the reason for the dropped bars.

Nice video! I like the front cross after jump #3. I didn't think of that...


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## MaggieRoseLee

kbella999 said:


> Here is my video. It got dark pretty quick. I wanted to try doing a fc between jump 1 & 2 like Willy did but ran out of time. Had a couple knocked bars at jump 5. I think it was to close to the fence. GSD Forum course 3 - YouTube


Great job, love the videos.

So interesting how differently we all train. Love the way the front crossed worked for you but I know my instructor would be screaming 'IT'S JUST A PULL, NOT A CHANGE OF DIRECTION'.

For instance at 25 sec I'd only be able to put that front in if we were taking a hard right *after *Jump 4 (instead the course is straight ahead between 4 and 5) . So the reason I would front after 3 is to show the dog we were NOT going straight but that there was a turn (change of arm means change of direction). The 'turn' (or the pull) starts between 2 and 3, when I'd start the pull cause not going straight after 2.

But that's my instructor and the way I was taught for consistancy.

Clearly it worked for you and your method! :wild:


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Here's my video finally! Please ignore my ugly backyard and garage, we've been working on it and it looks a lot better than it did when we bought the house and the garage is getting painted 






I worked on distance, front crosses, and blind crosses.


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> So the reason I would front after 3 is to show the dog we were NOT going straight but that there was a turn (change of arm means change of direction). The 'turn' (or the pull) starts between 2 and 3, when I'd start the pull cause not going straight after 2.


Yes, but there is ALSO a turn from 3 to 4. Whether you choose to pull or front cross, the 'turn' is from 3 to 4. "A change of arms means a change of direction" does not apply to two jumps from now. It means immediately. So the front cross between 3 and 4 should not affect the performance after 4. I do agree that it _might_ set up for a theoretical turn after 4- but for all intents and purposes, it could also be a setup for a turn after 5.


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## Bear L

The videos are fun to watch! I hope to start my 9 months old next month in an agility foundation class. Maybe I can join you guys on the video in... 6 months? Or does it take longer to get there?

Right now I get her to run thru the tunnels, slides and bridges on the playground. She LOVES it. I made up my own commands so hopefully that won't mess her up when the real class starts.


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## kbella999

Yes it is interesting how we all can train differently. The Greg Derrett system says to "Front Cross where the dog turns". That is my basis for doing the fc there. Like Willy says, it is a turn and in this course could be handled with either a pull or a fc but Jerry Lee works better with a fc than a pull. His pulls have to be hard, but that is just my dog.



wildo said:


> Yes, but there is ALSO a turn from 3 to 4. Whether you choose to pull or front cross, the 'turn' is from 3 to 4. "A change of arms means a change of direction" does not apply to two jumps from now. It means immediately. So the front cross between 3 and 4 should not affect the performance after 4. I do agree that it _might_ set up for a theoretical turn after 4- but for all intents and purposes, it could also be a setup for a turn after 5.


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## kbella999

All dogs progress at a different rate but you are welcome to join in any time even if you can't do all the stuff in the video. Since your puppy is so young, just concentrate on getting that foundation training in. It is so important not to rush through it. 



Bear L said:


> The videos are fun to watch! I hope to start my 9 months old next month in an agility foundation class. Maybe I can join you guys on the video in... 6 months? Or does it take longer to get there?
> 
> Right now I get her to run thru the tunnels, slides and bridges on the playground. She LOVES it. I made up my own commands so hopefully that won't mess her up when the real class starts.


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## wildo

Speaking of the difference in handling- I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO- I wanted to ask about your very first run, specifically the send out to jump #3. It appears you used your off hand for the send which I found very curious. Is this something you usually do? You can see this three seconds into the video. When you ran the other direction, you used your hand that was closest to the dog.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

wildo said:


> Speaking of the difference in handling- I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO- I wanted to ask about your very first run, specifically the send out to jump #3. It appears you used your off hand for the send which I found very curious. Is this something you usually do? You can see this three seconds into the video. When you ran the other direction, you used your hand that was closest to the dog.



You're a very observant guy, Willy. Yes, I often use the off arm for distance handling. I think I didn't use it the second time because I went in further and didn't need as strong of an out signal.


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## wildo

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> You're a very observant guy, Willy. Yes, I often use the off arm for distance handling. I think I didn't use it the second time because I went in further and didn't need as strong of an out signal.


Ha! I try! 

Can you elaborate on this technique? This is entirely new to me. I've heard of using the off hand to cue collection, but I've not heard of using it to cue extension. Did you pick this up from someone?


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> Yes, but there is ALSO a turn from 3 to .


Uh, NO there is not. 

For the dog's path, it's just a pull into you. If you stay in the middle, and 'pull' your dog around the bend, there is NO turn and no subsequent lead change needed from the dog. 

The DOG, if you stay in the center, is just pulling around the curve and on it's left lead for all 5 jumps if you are on their left, and they are on their right lead for all 5 jumps if you are on the dog's right. 

Once again, this is according to my instructor (and actually Susan Garrett too). It's about consistancy and giving real information to my dog EARLY. 

Think of the course with a change. 

















For me, this now has a change of direction between 4 and 5 but doing the front (or rear) cross between 3 and 4 cues the change of direction (lead change). Dog start on left lead for 1, 2, 3, then CHANGES it's lead to the right lead to go over jump 4, 5 and 6.

And for those of you that can't see your dogs lead change (I can't  ) look at where you are!!!!!! When you are on your dog's right, that's the lead they will take and easier pull into you to the right. If you are on the dogs left they are on their left lead and will pull easier that way.

IF I do either a front or rear cross, and then run straight, I then really weaken the meaning and intent of a cross. Generally you can put a front OR a rear in the same place (because it should be the same turn).

Would anyone have put a REAR cross in INSTEAD of the front cross after 3 in the original setup (not the one I just changed)? And if the reason is because your dog would turn off jump 5 then GOOD FOR YOUR DOG! They 'get' a rear but a front??????????????? Maybe not so much.

When you watch the 'official' video for this setup, go to 24 sec where she puts and 'X' in the middle and front crosses, watch the dog start on her left side, then be on the handler's right side after the cross. BUT it's not just that the dog is on the other side, it's that now the dog knows the course is curving to the left because the handler cued it and it on it's left lead. She did NOT put that front cross in and run STRAIGHT to the far jump on the left side of the screen.


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Uh, NO there is not.
> 
> For the dog's path, it's just a pull into you. If you stay in the middle, and 'pull' your dog around the bend, there is NO turn and no subsequent lead change needed from the dog.


OK- I admit. Even by my own handling system, you got me. No lead change means no turn. However, perhaps that shows the incompleteness of a handling system because by that same manner of thinking- the dog _could_ perform the entire sequence on his left lead (or right lead- depending on direction). And by that thinking, you'd have to say there is simple NO turn in the entire sequence since the dog wouldn't change leads.... And clearly there is a turn.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

wildo said:


> Ha! I try!
> 
> Can you elaborate on this technique? This is entirely new to me. I've heard of using the off hand to cue collection, but I've not heard of using it to cue extension. Did you pick this up from someone?



Really? It's great for distance to push out and turning at a distance. I chose to use it in this instance because I could feel him coming into me and I needed to push him out. I learned it from my trainer, who has fabulous distance with her dogs.

Here's her YouTube account so you can see some distance:

Red Hot Agility - YouTube


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## wildo

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I chose to use it in this instance because I could feel him coming into me and I needed to push him out.


Ah! Now that you mention that, I have heard this being used (and I had an instructor who did it) to keep a dog on their line when you feel them putting pressure on yours. However, I haven't seen it used for distance work. Only for keeping the dog going straight when beside you. I'll check out some of those videos. Thanks!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Not sure if this shows better a 'turn' on the course than my first example.










I know that if I used a front cross to show #5 above and got an nice turn (or a rear cross) and ALSO used a front cross in exactly the same place and had my dog go straight.... then I darn sure won't be able to be angry if I get an off course at a trial if I have when I MEANT my dog to go straight and they turned (or vice versa).

I still say that there is no turn (or lead change) if the dog runs the course as in the original course. You can make the 'C' shape less sharp (open the 'C') gradually straightening it. At what point would you no longer say there was a turn? Only when it becomes a straight line, but a gentle curve is still a turn? I know the dog is pulling into the handler to the right, but for an AGILITY term, the dog is on the same lead the entire time so no lead change to 'turn' from the path they are taking. If you do nothing the dog should keep pulling into you and make the curve to the right. 

*Maybe using the word 'turn' is the problem. A change of hands/side means a change in DIRECTION (and changes the dogs lead). Is that clearer (as mud?)???*



I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I chose to use it in this instance because I could feel him coming into me and I needed to push him out. I learned it from my trainer, who has fabulous distance with her dogs.


That's an interesting comment because I've been told that to do a good front cross, it's important to be ahead and with plenty of room to execute the cross and give information early to the dog. So if I was feeling pressure from my dog coming into me, would a front cross slow my dog down so they go around me? Do I want to use a front to slow my dog so they have to get away from me? Or do I want a front cross to be in a place out of my dogs path and to give information?

Off to see I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO vidoes! http://www.youtube.com/user/gchapman16


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wow, great spot on this video from showing how your dog's lead matters and being on the wrong lead affects the course!

Remember, our dog is pretty much always naturally on the lead that pulls them into and towards you. So if you are on their right, they are on their right lead and will natually come to the right. If you are on their left, they will be on their left lead and pull into you and to the left!

Look at one of the first videos on I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO site and at the very end at 44 sec the handler got stuck on the right side of the dog after the teeter, putting the dog on it's RIGHT lead. So then when the handler tries to finish the course by pushing the dog around and away, the dog can't do it and misses the last jump.

INSTEAD, if the handler could have either rear crossed the teeter, or front crossed on the down side of the teeter, the dog would have been on the handlers LEFT side and on it's left lead so would have easily made the change of direction by curving into the handler along the line of the course. 





 
Hate to go back on my videos to show all the knocked bars and confusion:wild:


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

MaggieRoseLee said:


> That's an interesting comment because I've been told that to do a good front cross, it's important to be ahead and with plenty of room to execute the cross and give information early to the dog. So if I was feeling pressure from my dog coming into me, would a front cross slow my dog down so they go around me? Do I want to use a front to slow my dog so they have to get away from me? Or do I want a front cross to be in a place out of my dogs path and to give information?
> 
> Off to see I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO vidoes! Red Hot Agility - YouTube


The comment was actually in reference to Willy's comment about the off arm, not the front cross.

And the videos are my trainer's, and that video is her running her partner's pitty who is very handler focused and she isn't that used to running her. She runs border collies.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> The comment was actually in reference to Willy's comment about the off arm, not the front cross.
> .


That makes sense! 



> And the videos are my trainer's, and that video is her running her partner's pitty who is very handler focused and she isn't that used to running her. She runs border collies.


Your handler does a great job with her BC's, not a reflection on her or the dog. If I did the same handling with either of my dogs, they would have missed that last jump and probably knocked the jump after the teeter.....


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## wildo

MRL- can we take a step back for a second. I think I'm confused about what point you are making. You are mentioning a FC in the original sequence. Where did this come from? Is it coming from kbella999's video at 0:25? Sorry- I just need to recap on where this is coming from so I can understand better the point you're making.


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## wildo

Also- I'm curious where this comes from, MRL- "Remember, our dog is pretty much always naturally on the lead that pulls them into and towards you. So if you are on their right, they are on their right lead and will natually come to the right."

At the end of that video, at the section you mention- I see a dog turning left. On their left lead. With the handler on the right hand side. How can a dog turn left when on a right lead?? I think that a handler absolutely CAN influence a dog's lead by applying pressure. A "push" is exactly that.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

MaggieRoseLee said:


> That makes sense!
> 
> 
> 
> Your handler does a great job with her BC's, not a reflection on her or the dog. If I did the same handling with either of my dogs, they would have missed that last jump and probably knocked the jump after the teeter.....


Oh yes, sorry to seem defensive, just wanted people to know. I'll have to watch the video more closely too.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> At the end of that video, at the section you mention- I see a dog turning left. On their left lead. With the handler on the right hand side. How can a dog turn left when on a right lead?? I think that a handler absolutely CAN influence a dog's lead by applying pressure. A "push" is exactly that.


Have to make sure we are not talking about the same video.... is it the one that at the end the dog takes teeter, jump, misses last jump?

You are 100% CORRECT that we can and do influence our dogs lead. That's why we need to be aware of where we are and what we are doing. A push can change a dogs lead, or just bend them away and they are still on the same lead.

What I am saying, is that if push comes to shove and our dog isn't sure where they are going, or think they do because of something we are doing, they will be on the lead matching the side we are on. They will always more easily take a curve with us in the inside of the curve.

If we are talking about the same video, what I am seeing is that the handler pushes the dog to the left after the teeter and the dog then goes onto it's right lead (handler on the right). So now the dog will alway have the tendency to bend to the right and unless we can get ahead to show the line and straighten their path. 

That's what I see, because the handler had to make sure they got the contact (I'm guessing), they both left the teeter together and not only just had a push to turn the dog, but the DOG'S PATH was headed to the correct jump and then toward the camera/orange fencing.

Watch the dogs head as it goes over the jump, all on the handler and curving into them which is their natural tendency. Enough that even with the opposite arm and the handler trying to push the dog off and away, the dog still was all into and on her. The handler then did the right thing and spun the dog around (by the way, that changed the dog onto it's left lead) and got the jump.

Because we are dealing with dogs, and they think on their own and try to figure out the course, as well as having us in the mix, they CAN change their lead on their own so even though we are on the correct side and they SHOULD have done it correctly, you can see this pop up on a course. 

Next time you watch a run and in the middle of it you see a dog spin (it's usually away from the handler) either right before or after a jump, much of the time it's the only way the dog has, at speed, to fix it's lead and not fall to continue the course. 

I'm not talking crazy wackjob dog that's lost his mind and spinning. I'm talking about good dogs/handlers that are working a course and doing well, that probably will have a fast qualifying run.


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