# There are always good and bad things about breeders



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

With the recent topics there is one thing that stood out to me. It's the debate of whether or not a breeder is good or bad. 

One thing everybody has to understand is that there will always be somebody that is either pleased with a breeder or they are simply not. 

Recently I read a topic on another forum about a dog whose papers were declared null and void due to his father turning out not to be his father via the SV DNA Test. The entire litters pink papers were declared void. 

On the forum, dozen of people popped up, damning the breeder for not doing anything at all. For not presenting the real father of the litter and for not getting another DNA Test done. 

Problem is, that every single dog out of that litter MUST turn in a DNA sample and one dog went overseas and he couldn't get in contact with them, so the time ran out and there is pretty much nothing they can do about it. 

However, they continued to bash the breeder until one person popped up and said that the breeder might not be an angel but he's been always fair. 

What happened is that the bitch was studded and the breeder wasn't sure which dog studded the bitch so he took DNA samples and had the dogs tested BEFORE he sent in the paperwork.
The DNA Labor said that the original stud is the father. Now the SV Test claims that the stud is not the father and declared the papers void. One male was just about to go through the breed survey. 

What I'm trying to say is, always get your own picture. If anyone bashes a breeder, take it with a grain of salt. Make your own experiences. 

Another thing, there is a lot of jealousy out there in the world of German Shepherds. There is a lot of corruption, and there are people that deliberately spread untruths about certain breeders, that literally bash them to make themselves look good. It's happening since that breed was created an every good breeder goes through some sort of bashing at least once in their lifetime. 

You can't go always off of what other people say. You have to talk to the breeder yourself and let your own judgement decide whether or not this is a good or bad breeder. 

If you hear something from someone that has heard this or that from this or that person, or from a third or fourth person. Always take it with a grain of salt because it's NEVER the original story and always get both sides of the medal! 

Breeders CAN'T DO IT RIGHT! There is always somebody that isn't pleased. I'm pretty sure that every kennel, represented on this Forum had their fair share of Drama with buyers. 

There are breeders on the internet where you know, just from taking a quick look at what they breed, they are backyard breeders and than there are websites that look extremely professional. 

Most stats can be looked up on the internet, nowadays. If somebody claims that a dog has SchH3, than there is a record out there. 
If they say the dog has A normal Hips. Than there is a record out there about it. 
When they say it's OFA Excellent, there IS a record out there. 

When they say the dog was imported from Germany and has pink papers, than the dog is chipped, or tatooed (depending on the age) and there IS a record. 

They can try to commit fraud but in the end, there is somebody out there that will check up on the claims. 

If anyone bashes a dog and you see the dog competing and it turns out to be a good dog, you can say "I've seen that dog, it's not true." and the record is set straight, at least for you. However, it's easy to destroy somebodies reputation, especially on the Internet. 

Some is true, some may be true but a lot of the times, there are two sides to a story and you have to decide whether it's true or not. 

Get your own picture! Don't believe everything you are told by somebody who knows somebody that knows somebody else who has heard this from her 3rd grade cousin who is friends with that Girl that bought a dog.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

This is true, the only thing I have to say about this is, what if 8 or 9 out of 10 people have a bad experience with a breeder? Regardless of that 1 or 2 people who didn't, wouldn't you consider it a yellow or red flag? It's a lot of factors in that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSD Fan said:


> This is true, the only thing I have to say about this is, what if 8 or 9 out of 10 people have a bad experience with a breeder? Regardless of that 1 or 2 people who didn't, wouldn't you consider it a yellow or red flag? It's a lot of factors in that.


That is the thing where you have to decide for yourself. 
With some breeders it is very evident that they are truly bad breeders and with others it's not so much evident and you have to decide for yourself whether or not you look more into it or not. 

Generally, I look at the dogs first. What have the dogs done in the past. How are their results, how successful are his dogs, who are they placed with. If there is someone out there who is trying to drag that breeders name through the mud, you will find out about it.

Just like the one breeder whose litters papers were declared void. He's been thrown out of the SV and now the kennel operates under his wives name. He's also in the RSV if I'm not mistaken. 
Some say he's a bad apple, others say he has been fair and if there is something up you can always find a solution with him. He's no Angel but he's not as bad as people make him sound. 

That's where I'd talk personally to the breeder. Swing by at the Club he trains, watch the breeder train (gives you a lot of conclusions of how the dog is treated, you don't even need to say that you are a prospect buyer) his dogs. Not only can you learn about the breeder and the handlers but about the dogs themselves. 

If it's within your state and not too much of a distance I'd go that route and make my own picture and listen to what his own club members have to say about him/her.

But that's generally how it's done for a long time.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

I would have to take each case in and of itself, on an individual basis. Because what might constitute a bad experience that could become a dealbreaker for someone else might just be considered a minor inconvenience to me. Granted, those are extremely high odds of people who have had a negative experience, but again, it could be something where the breeder didn't call someone back in what they would consider to be "enough time" or that their contract was poorly read by the buyer, causing strife, opposed to something like concealing a defect or an illness or lying about health testing or titles.

I agree completely, though with Mrs. K. It would be different if these dogs weren't available for us to see, if these records were inaccessible to us and all we had was blind word. 
I think the breeder is not the only person who needs to be held accountable: we, the buyers need to be accountable as well, and not only that, we need to understand where things are out of the breeders' hands. We need to research, ask questions, do our homework and most of all, we need to see for ourselves.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

This bears repeating !!! Excellent quote and very true




> I think the breeder is not the only person who needs to be held accountable: we, the buyers need to be accountable as well, and not only that, we need to understand where things are out of the breeders' hands. We need to research, ask questions, do our homework and most of all, we need to see for ourselves.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

That's a good point, GSD Fan, but all too often the biggest bashers are those with no direct experience with the breeder of the dogs produced. Frequently these bashers raise a cacophony that drowns out those who have actual experience with the breeders & GSD produced. Another thing seen is the free ride given to breeders favored by popular board members whose pups are enthusiastically touted with nary a mention of health &/or behavior issues previously seen in the pups or controversies the breeders have been embroiled in.

It cracks me up to see people ominously invoking the 'possibility' of HD with widely disliked breeders, some of whom have an excellent history of health & longevity, including sound joints. And yet, these same members are mum on HD when recommending a popular breeder whose hip scores are no better than average. IF HD is mentioned in conjunction with the preferred breeders it's only to sanctimoneously murmur that hips aren't the whole story. (With which I actually agree, but then I don't sing the song 2 different ways, depending on which breeder is being considered). Invariably, there are similar vague warnings on health & temperament when someone asks about a disliked breeder & yet these same posters remain *curiously* silent on the subject when people are interested in one of the 'board preferred' breeders. Is this b/c these exalted breeders don't have these problems? NOT according to some of the discussions on the board or the PMs I've received.

IMO, this double standard seriously undermines the value of the recommendations given.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> That's a good point, GSD Fan, but all too often the biggest bashers are those with no direct experience with the breeder of the dogs produced. Frequently these bashers raise a cacophony that drowns out those who have actual experience with the breeders & GSD produced. Another thing seen is the free ride given to breeders favored by popular board members whose pups are enthusiastically touted with nary a mention of health &/or behavior issues previously seen in the pups or controversies the breeders have been embroiled in.
> 
> It cracks me up to see people ominously invoking the 'possibility' of HD with widely disliked breeders, some of whom have an excellent history of health & longevity, including sound joints. And yet, these same members are mum on HD when recommending a popular breeder whose hip scores are no better than average. IF HD is mentioned in conjunction with the preferred breeders it's only to sanctimoneously murmur that hips aren't the whole story. (With which I actually agree, but then I don't sing the song 2 different ways, depending on which breeder is being considered). Invariably, there are similar vague warnings on health & temperament when someone asks about a disliked breeder & yet these same posters remain *curiously* silent on the subject when people are interested in one of the 'board preferred' breeders. Is this b/c these exalted breeders don't have these problems? NOT according to some of the discussions on the board or the PMs I've received.
> 
> IMO, this double standard seriously undermines the value of the recommendations given.


You will find that double standard in every single breed on this planet. That is just how things are which is why it is so important to talk with the breeder for yourself. 

That being said, at one point or another, we've been all guilty of it.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> That's a good point, GSD Fan, but all too often the biggest bashers are those with no direct experience with the breeder of the dogs produced. Frequently these bashers raise a cacophony that drowns out those who have actual experience with the breeders & GSD produced.


I agree. 
A random check that turns up complaints about a breeder is something to look into further but don't jump to conclusions, dig deeper. The internet is full of people who get some weird personal satisfaction out of making other people look bad.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Mrs K.......I agree with your post.
ALL breeders have their fair share of problems...none of us (including myself) are without some form of problem.....
ALL our dogs/breedings are not perfect...they are living creatures, and things do happen.

*you know what they say.....one bad comment....and watch the dominoe effect, and most times....the "truth" is no where near as interesting or sinister.*


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Discoetheque said:


> the buyers need to be accountable as well, and not only that, we need to understand where things are out of the breeders' hands. We need to research, ask questions, do our homework and most of all, we need to see for ourselves.


This is pretty much where I stand now. I have come to the conclusion that a buyer gets what they put into the search. And generally speaking they get what they deserved, good or not so good. So many times we read about buyers nightmares and MOST of the time when we get the full story we can all see where it was going to go bad.
Just the other day there was a post where a possible puppy buyer went to visit the breeder, meet the parents of the litter and see the pups. This buyer had a bad vibe from the second they walked in, red flags all over the place and yet they called the breeder back soon after to put a deposit on the pup! Seriously! Luckily for them the pups were all spoken for and they had to look for another breeder.
I have a handful of breeders that I recommend to people that call us and ask.These breeders all do the absolute best they can and I respect that. All breeders can have issues now and then, but how they deal with it is the thing to me. They aren't perfect and I don't expect them to be(I also don't expect the puppy to be perfect either).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Another "great" Story from a German Breeder. I will not name any dog or breeder but I'm sure that some people may know who I am talking about since it is a current event. 

A male Shepherd, who actually competed at the SV German Nationals (Bundessiegerpruefung) and was under the first 30 was seized by the German officials and is now residing in a German Shelter (thank the Lord we don't have Kill Shelters) RIGHT NOW!

From what I understand, the breeder did not make any efforts to keep the dogs, nor is he making any efforts to get them back. The dog is well known too. 

With the male, a couple of pups went into the Shelter as well. 
Now here is the kicker. A Breed Warden went to the Shelter to pick up one of those pups to SELL it (That's how great the SV is) but left the male there because apparently the male has a sport injury and he can't compete any longer. Meaning he doesn't bring as much money. 

If this is all true, I'm not sure, it's what I've heard which is why I leave out the names. 

The breeder also had a bitch in "Zuchtmiete" (meaning it's a bitch from another breeder he "rented" to breed her under his kennel name) he got that bitch from another breeder because he was supposed to "foster" and train (called Aufzucht) and raise a dog for the bitches owner. However, when they picked up that young bitch she was literally broken (so the same thing happened to her what happened to my Yukon). 

The rumor was that he had held the dogs in horrible conditions and that is why the dogs were seized. Apparently, that is not the truth. Why the dogs were really seized is all speculations. 

And this ladies and gentleman, is how the name of a breeder is definitely going to be destroyed. This happened. The dogs are sitting in the Shelter. One dog was pulled by the breed warden. But nobody than a select view knows what is truly going on, so there is a whole lot of rumors and even more speculation going around. 

Can you believe that a Bundessieger Competitor, that was quite successful is sitting in a Shelter? 

You know what the Shelter did? They changed the dogs name. Furthermore they said that the dog was abused as breeding machine, didn't get to know anything, never received any love and that is why he's a ball junkie. Yay, Shelters!

Whatever is going on. The dogs are the ones suffering.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Well then maybe Germans should go to shelters to get their dogs-who knows they could end up with a Bundesseiger-imagine that-now that would be a story!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> Well then maybe Germans should go to shelters to get their dogs-who knows they could end up with a Bundesseiger-imagine that-now that would be a story!


It's not the Bundessieger. It's a competitor that scored well and it didn't have to come to this. There would have been ways. I can't believe that a breeder of this caliber, with dogs competing at the Nationals has no other options than getting his dogs seized. The rumor is he didn't want the help. 

Generally you have a support system. But either pride was playing a huge role in it or something else, we all don't know about, was going on. 

Once the dog is in a shelter, it's hard to get it back out. Especially when they know you are involved with Sport. People have been trying to pull him but as soon as they googled the name and found out that you are involved with sport or breeding yourself they were told "NO!"

How the heck, the breedwarden got that pup out, I have no idea... 

Anyhow, the point is, with a breeder like that, whose got his dogs seized under the German system. Yeah... even though I don't know what's going on, I wouldn't go and ever get one of his dogs. Chances are, once this whole ordeal is over, he's going to breed again. (not saying he will breed but if he does, I won't go there to buy a dog.)

No matter whats going on. The German system doesn't seize dogs for nothing. Something bad happened. I don't need to know what but just knowing the process and how long it takes and that you actually are given a chance to correct whatever is going on... yeah, you screwed up and I won't ever go there to buy a dog.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

How sad, and once again it's the dogs that pay the price for us.


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