# Back to back litters good or bad



## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

selzer said:


> The AKC has rules too. They have a minimum age for bitches and dogs to be bred, and a maximum. If you go against them, my guess is that they would not register the litter either. 3 litters in three years is not too much, it is dependent on the bitch. 6 litters in 3 years -- never heard of anyone doing that with one bitch, but yeah I can see that. We like to compare it to female humans. Well do that. Some women have another kid each year or two years. My Mom had 4 kids age five and under, most of us were approx. 2 years apart. At least the first 4. But gestation for a woman is 9 months. Gestation for a bitch is 9 weeks. Women my breast feed for over a year. Bitches are done with their pups by 8 weeks. And humans take care of their young for 18, 22, 30 years or more. Bitches are generally done in 8 weeks, though they can be with a baby for years. If you look at a human having a baby once a year, she is pregnant for 9 months, and then within 3 months she is pregnant again. For a bitch, she is pregnant for a little more than 2 months, has the pups for 2 months and then has 8 months to recuperate. With good nutrition and health that's perfectly ok. So why would we want the AKC to succumb to the idea that having puppies is hard and horrible? The day of whelping is pretty hard on the bitch and on you. But after that a bitch with pups is one of the most beautiful things in the world. They LOVE their puppies. A lot of it comes naturally, but it is hard to explain.


It's NOT the health of the bitch, I'm thinking of breeders that continually breed * to sell pups $$$$$$*. I have seen, on line, a 'hobby' breeder that HAS had 6, or even 7 litters out of 1 bitch in just a few years. I want to say this one bitch had, at least, 3 litters each year, 6 litters in 2 years. I'm thinking of the breeders that uses their dogs as money making machines. Looks to me the the IKC is trying to curb that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How did a bitch have 3 litters in one year? she would need to be whelping puppies every 4 months. Literally going back into heat while nursing puppies. 2 litters? yes. But I highly doubt 3. If I'm going to breed, I would want to do back to back breedings, which is 2 litters per year. While the case is still out on this, many experts say this is healthier for the females. Do the breedings young over a couple of years and then spay to avoid pyometra.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> How did a bitch have 3 litters in one year? she would need to be whelping puppies every 4 months. Literally going back into heat while nursing puppies. 2 litters? yes. But I highly doubt 3. If I'm going to breed, I would want to do back to back breedings, which is 2 litters per year. While the case is still out on this, many experts say this is healthier for the females. Do the breedings young over a couple of years and then spay to avoid pyometra.


That's why I said, "I want to say", I was unsure if she had 3 litters a year, but may have had less, but IMHO was bred too many times, even with 2 litters a year, but that's JMHO.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I have had a LOT of bitches, and never had I had any that came in every 4 months. Sorry. Domestic canines go into heat twice a year, and wolves once a year.


Hate to burst your bubble but a considerable number of bitches come in heat 3 times a year, including the one I own.

As to the price tag, I have no issues with breeders charging a fair price IF I get what I pay for. I understand the work involved. In this case the OP did not get what he paid for and has an absolute right to go back on the breeder. That part of it is absolutely supportable. 
Breeding dogs that are unproven or not to standard is not. Using a different registry in an effort to circumvent the rules is the definition of unethical.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Honey Maid said:


> That's why I said, "I want to say", I was unsure if she had 3 litters a year, but may have had less, but IMHO was bred too many times, even with 2 litters a year, but that's JMHO.


Well anyone can have an opinion but you can't get around facts. yes, a female can come into heat every 4 months, and I've known a couple that have. But the logistics of having 3 litters in one year is almost impossible. 2 months gestation, 6-7 weeks of nursing. 

Regarding having back to back litters, again you can have your opinion but the latest word from reproductive experts is to breed back to back while they are younger and then spay. That is healthier for the dog. 

Look it up. Do your research. Everyone wants a purebred dog and then they want to tie the hands of the good breeders with all their opinions.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Scarlet comes into heat every 4 and a half months, just like clockwork.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> Scarlet comes into heat every 4 and a half months, just like clockwork.


That must be horrible. How does that affect how many litters she can have? Heat, bred, gestation, weaning, heat. What would that cycle be like? 

I train with a woman whose dog comes in every 4 months. It is causing medical issues and, after failed attempt trying medication to put her to stop her cycles in an effort to "reset" them, the recommendation is to spay her. She was told she should never be bred as it was genetic and would pass on the medical condition. 

I'm going to ask a Mod to move this whole conversation to a new thread. We're way off topic but I think this is super interesting.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

selzer said:


> I am sorry that you are angry. You have been sucked in by the PETA, HSUS, AR propaganda. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with breeding canines to sell for $. A bitch goes into heat approximately twice per year. I have had bitches who go in every six months, and others that go in every 8 months, but usually it's six months. I have had a LOT of bitches, and never had I had any that came in every 4 months. Sorry. Domestic canines go into heat twice a year, and wolves once a year.
> 
> What is frustrating from a breeder's perspective is that the buyer is allowed to be concerned about the money. No problem. The buyer can haggle, the buyer can look for a refund of their deposit, the buyer can shop for a dog in their price range. The buyer can ask a breeder to help them with vet expenses if the pup becomes ill. The buyer can ask for his money back. It seems that the buyer is doing a noble thing by trying to get as many ducks in a row for the least amount of money. If a breeder cuts corners because she knows the folks that are looking to buy are not likely to pay what she needs to ask to break even, she is a villain. Breeders don't get a fat check if your pup wins a championship. Should breeders call up and ask you for a bonus if your dog earns a title? No. Only the buyer can be concerned about money. What's up with that?
> 
> Here's the thing that is important. If you continue to believe that breeders are not worthy of making money by selling the puppies that they bred and whelped, then the breed as you know it goes away. The only folks that would have the breed are an elite group of fanciers that deal with only themselves. The business (yes it IS a business) of breeding has a lot of risk, a lot of heart-break, a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of learning. It is like farming where your sow your seed into a field, often going into debt for the seed and equipment, and after so many months you harvest a crop, if you are lucky and nothing went wrong, like hail, or grasshoppers, or drought, or many other events. But it is also like art, because you have engineered a litter by making choices, by developing lines, and bringing traits in and trying to eliminate other traits. It is mentoring because the folks that buy your puppies often call and get advice from you and some work with you for their own goals in showing, working with, and/or breeding. Usually the price tag on a good pure-bred dog doesn't reflect what went into producing that dog. It is probably a good thing that most of us are driven by more than the almighty dollar when it comes to breeding dogs. Because if that was all that was between this breed and extinction, we'd be done. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't compensate the folks that are doing it.


I'm not angry, I'm having a civil discussion. I LOVE breeders that are involved with their breed, involved with breed rescue, vet their puppy buyers, and are happy to have pup buyers contact them throughout the life of the dogs, and will take any dog back, any age, no questions asked. What is wrong with what the IKC is doing?? I have to laugh at the, "You have been sucked in by the PETA, HSUS, AR propaganda" I deplore the 'no kill' shelters, as there are worse things than death, I'm an advocate for bringing BACK slaughter houses for horses in the US. 

Since we are not face to face, I know people have a tendency to interpret incorrectly. The lady I got my first GSD from, has at least 25 bitches, she's knowledgeable and will talk to you at end about GSD's, her dogs have all the proper tests, and she's affordable. Many people think it's a bad thing, she has so many dogs, doesn't bother me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Honey Maid said:


> I'm not angry, I'm having a civil discussion.


I know this isn't directed at me but I don't take your posts as angry. I just want you to look into it more before having an opinion on breeding. I have a female that is supposed to be bred by her breeder this fall. I've looked into back to back, once a year, age, etc, to see what is best for my dog. Because I have zero intention of breeding her myself and I only care about her health. If it were healthier for her to do one per year, I would do that. But the experts are saying breed young, back to back and then spay. It's easier on them and reduces pyometra chances. 

Regardless of the IKC, why are you against more than 3 breedings on a female? If the female is really nice, and adds something to the gene pool, why not breed her 4 times?  Even 5? To different males. Not every dog in a litter goes on to competition, work or breeding. Why are we taking a good dog out of the breed pool based on a rule restricting the number of breedings? 

I really don't understand this philosophy. We take out one good bitch but it's ok to breed 30 mediocre bitches 3 times to make up for the market? Are the same restrictions to be put on males? The females are so much more important for so many reasons. 

Areta Ja He has produced numerous high level dogs. People think Bordy Blendy was created by Jaro. Nope....look at the litters from Areta. The qualities people love come from her and can be seen over and over in her progeny. So we only breed her 3 times and that takes out the F litter that has amazing dogs in it as well. And only a handful of her progeny are being bred. The genetics being taken out because the bitches are restricted is insane. This should be an individual thing. What has the bitch produced in drive, temperament, health? What condition is the bitch in at every breeding? 

I'm willing to bet that bitches in Ireland get sold A LOT. 3 breedings and sell them to a different country. That's what the owner of this dog should have done if only cared about the breeding. Instead he's being punished, and a whole litter of puppies are now basically mutts, for wanting to keep his bitch instead of passing her around.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Jax08 sorry that these are a bit jumbled up,but moving half of a discussion to it's own thread makes a few things out of context.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

There is good evidence that medically it is better for bitches to be bred every heat. However, that would assume that responsible breeders are ensuring that the bitches remain in good condition and are "bouncing back" appropriately. It also assumes that a breeder is not going to breed 12 litters off one bitch. 
In theory a bitch will come in season starting somewhere around a year old and continue roughly every six months for pretty much the rest of her life. Some bitches stop cycling in their last year or two of life and some don't although after 9 or 10 you would probably see fertility issues and after 6 or 7 many breeders report drops in litter size. A fair number of bitches do cycle roughly every 4-5 months.
The concept of breeding every other heat was an attempt to give the bitch time to recuperate, since biologically most animals only produce offspring once a year with heats being timed to the portion of the year with the most abundance. And as any woman who has given birth can tell you it wreaks havoc on your body.
So in theory by breeding back to back a breeder could get several litters, spay the bitch and pass her on to a pet home at 5 or 6 to live out her days as a spoiled, loved pet.
However, what kennel clubs were seeing was that bitches were being bred to death and either dying or being dumped. In an effort to curtail that type of behavior they started bringing in rules governing ethical breeding. A healthy dam produces healthy pups. There is no benefit to overbreeding for the breed, the bitch or the pups.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I know of a female that comes into heat every 4 months. She has been bred twice. 1 year apart. No issues.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

My bitch only comes in season once a year.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> How did a bitch have 3 litters in one year?


Just down the road from my house lives some relatives who have two large mixed breed dogs. About two years ago the female got pregnant and had a litter in September . In January she went into heat and got pregnant again, second litter was born in March. Two months after her pups were weaned and gone, she got pregnant again! She had her last litter just a few days before the first birthday of the first litter born, so technically had 3 litters in the span of a year. The poor dog was not in good shape after all that..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are all stuck on one sentence. Yes, dogs can be, and have been, bred once a year for thousands and thousands of years. I guess this won't be that interesting after all.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

@Jax08 I like what you said about why take a good female out of the breeding pool. If the female is healthy, having healthy litters.. when do you stop what would be the reason to stop if puppies and mother are healthy?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If a bitch produces only three litters in her lifetime by conservative numbers that is 15 pups that carry her DNA. More likely if she is good there will be 5 or 6 litters and she will have some 30 or more pups. 
If a breeder was wise there would be 2 0r 3 litters, that would cover about a year and a half if she cycles normally, then a year off to finish titles or get more, then 2 or 3 more litters. Assuming she is in good condition and receives appropriate care this is doable and meets KC standards for responsible breeding. 
The rules of the IKC do not state she can ONLY have three litters. So this assumption that a bitch will be removed from the genepool after three litters is a bit silly.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I know this isn't directed at me but I don't take your posts as angry. I just want you to look into it more before having an opinion on breeding. I have a female that is supposed to be bred by her breeder this fall. I've looked into back to back, once a year, age, etc, to see what is best for my dog. Because I have zero intention of breeding her myself and I only care about her health. If it were healthier for her to do one per year, I would do that. But the experts are saying breed young, back to back and then spay. It's easier on them and reduces pyometra chances.
> 
> Regardless of the IKC, why are you against more than 3 breedings on a female? If the female is really nice, and adds something to the gene pool, why not breed her 4 times? Even 5? To different males. Not every dog in a litter goes on to competition, work or breeding. Why are we taking a good dog out of the breed pool based on a rule restricting the number of breedings?
> 
> ...


Your post makes a lit of sense Jax.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> @Jax08 I like what you said about why take a good female out of the breeding pool. If the female is healthy, having healthy litters.. when do you stop what would be the reason to stop if puppies and mother are healthy?


ok so I am not a breeder. But I have a ton of friends that are breeders and I listen to what they say. None of what I say is relevant to puppy mills or backyard breeders just pumping out dogs. Or even to some "good breeders" for that matter. 

It's really an individual decision. As a general rule (because I know someone who has never bred a dog will argue with me on this), the older the female is, the smaller the litters. A friend just said to me "at 8 years old you are in the range of no longer being able to conceive". Are you willing to risk your bitch for 2-4 puppies? That's not even a break even point for a breeder. Are you willing to risk a bitch getting into her senior years to pyometra? As a general rule, most breeders I am friends with stop breeding a dog at about 7 years. They spay them and either keep them or place them in a retirement home. 

Out of all the litters a female might have, you might have 1-2 really top dogs that go on to sport or work. You might have 3 that are bred, or none, to carry on the genes. You might not get any female puppies at all in a litter. 

There are real risks to your female for breeding. IMO, that needs to be weighed against what the breeder it trying to achieve. Are they just pumping out puppies? Are they trying to maintain the breed? Are they trying to produce qualities for working dogs (not sport but actual working dogs)? Has the bitch produced litter after litter of stellar dogs? Do they just truly enjoy breeding? Those are the ones that take it personally. That it kills them when there is something wrong with the puppies or they don't get put in the right homes and are ruined. So many reasons why a breeder chooses to do a litter vs. retire the bitch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I knew a breeder who would breed back to back with each of his bitches and then go to once a year. He felt by breeding them back to back that first time, it "set" her as a good brood bitch. That was his philosophy. 

I went to a seminar with Robert Hutchison, DVM back in the day, and he said, "breed them back to back for what litters you want and then get them spayed." I did not follow his advice. I don't like to spay, and will only do so if I think her life may be endangered, for instance, Odessa needed C-sections and never expelled any fluids prior to the surgery. When she came up empty at her last breeding, I had them spay her, because that fluid could have become toxic, and I was not going to breed her again. My fear was pyometra, either then or in the future. 

I have bred a few bitches back to back, Karma and Bear. It wasn't a problem, they bounced back without a hiccup. I am kind of glad I did because the dog I was using, Mufasa, bloated, and I would not have gotten some really great dogs if I hadn't bred them back to back. But you look at the female's condition before any breeding and if she isn't in top shape you don't breed.

I generally breed once a year, not for the bitch, but for me. I don't want to be having litters in the winter when it is cold and hard to keep the house warm enough for them. And it is nice to let them outside when they are puppies. I had a litter in the end of November, just three puppies, but they couldn't go outside at all until they were taken home, and then it was the sky is falling. No. I prefer to have pups in the spring and summer If there is a good reason to breed a female later in the year, I might do it. It is just a personal preference. 

I can keep them intact and not bred, so that isn't an issue.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> ok so I am not a breeder. But I have a ton of friends that are breeders and I listen to what they say. None of what I say is relevant to puppy mills or backyard breeders just pumping out dogs. Or even to some "good breeders" for that matter.
> 
> It's really an individual decision. As a general rule (because I know someone who has never bred a dog will argue with me on this), the older the female is, the smaller the litters. A friend just said to me "at 8 years old you are in the range of no longer being able to conceive". Are you willing to risk your bitch for 2-4 puppies? That's not even a break even point for a breeder. Are you willing to risk a bitch getting into her senior years to pyometra? As a general rule, most breeders I am friends with stop breeding a dog at about 7 years. They spay them and either keep them or place them in a retirement home.
> 
> ...


I’ve heard what your saying before to, makes sense. I don’t have any experience but I assume if your a breeder your making decisions based on health of the female first. At first when I heard breed back to back I thought it was insane, just being ignorant to it, but more people I spoke to have echoed it. Is a titled female worth more than a titled male, all things equal?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have no idea what a titled female is worth compared to a male. I know my dogs are not replaceable. I was not referring to monetary value when I said is 2-4 puppies worth your dog's life. For the breeders I know and respect, it's not a money game to them. There are higher goals that balance the risk vs benefit.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Once a year or back to back is fine with me. I think once a year gives you the Opportunity to do other things with your dog in between. It also allows you to see how the puppies develop before making your next breeding decision. Back to back is probably healthier for the uterus. Retirement age is a personal choice. The AKC age limit is 12. The SV is 8. Some other countries 9. I usually see females retired between 5-8 years of age. Most have about 4 litters if they ate with the same breeder the entire time.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Carter Smith said:


> a titled female worth more than a titled male, all things equal?


Hard question to answer because it’s never really equal. Essentially male prices have a higher ceiling. Female prices rise faster but plateau. 2 year old female would probably be worth more than the male. VA1 male, definitely worth more the VA1 female.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

@Bearshandler interesting point about doing more with the female, probably hard to balance between training a female and breeding.. someone told me once they lost points in competition for lactating.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> @Bearshandler interesting point about doing more with the female, probably hard to balance between training a female and breeding.. someone told me once they lost points in competition for lactating.


It's very hard to balance. When Faren got hurt this year, I threw my hands in the air and gave up. her breeder can do the litters. If I bring her back, great. If not, she's a pet. I'll concentrate on the young male I have here. And never, ever, do a breeding agreement with anyone ever again.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Carter Smith said:


> @Bearshandler interesting point about doing more with the female, probably hard to balance between training a female and breeding.. someone told me once they lost points in competition for lactating.


You want them titled before you breed. You don’t want to rush and push through, you want them to look good. Once you’re past 2, years you start to miss out on breeding opportunities. It’s a conundrum. Then you want to continue working her. You don’t want her life to be a breeding box, but to do that you miss out on opportunities to breed. There’s a lot of pressure involved with working a female you intend to breed. I’ve seen females lose their prime years for breeding.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Seems like females get the crappy end of it, unless they like having puppies, which I’ve heard can be a thing.. think it matters for the puppy’s future if the female is a “good” mom to the pups?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Carter Smith said:


> Seems like females get the crappy end of it, unless they like having puppies, which I’ve heard can be a thing.. think it matters for the puppy’s future if the female is a “good” mom to the pups?


Bitches LOVE having puppies. Maybe not the whelping process, but they can be awesome mothers and put humans to shame with their attention, loyalty, protectiveness, gentleness and being careful around them. And they will play with them. Carefully. I love to watch a bitch being a mom. No title is going indicate whether or not she will do this job properly. And it does make a difference to the puppies.

Puppies get 50% of their genes from each parent, but the bitch imprints the litter by their early experience being totally with her. If she is a nerve bag, the pups will get a double whammy. If you remove from the litter and raise them with a surrogate dam -- almost unheard of, they will still have the genetic portion of the nervousness. Perhaps it would not be compounded by having such negative nurture.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

selzer said:


> Bitches LOVE having puppies. Maybe not the whelping process, but they can be awesome mothers and put humans to shame with their attention, loyalty, protectiveness, gentleness and being careful around them. And they will play with them. Carefully. I love to watch a bitch being a mom. No title is going indicate whether or not she will do this job properly. And it does make a difference to the puppies.
> 
> Puppies get 50% of their genes from each parent, but the bitch imprints the litter by their early experience being totally with her. If she is a nerve bag, the pups will get a double whammy. If you remove from the litter and raise them with a surrogate dam -- almost unheard of, they will still have the genetic portion of the nervousness. Perhaps it would not be compounded by having such negative nurture.


Interesting bit of info, i would assume all this without knowing but glad someone with experience can confirm it. I imagine it would be quite enlightening to watch.


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