# Confused....



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Please tell me this is because I am a newbie and it will all become clear eventually! Over the past few weeks I've been trying to focus on Schutzhund, now that it's warmer and there's light outside. I went to a workshop in Kentucky and have been working with some different people here and there. After each session, I leave with a mental list of new things I've learned that's about a mile long, which is good, but it seems like each person I go to for training tells me something different. For example, one person watched me with my dog and told me not to use a toy reward, just food, and that it was OK he have a prong on. Then another person watched me doing the same stuff (this time with only food) and said the food is good but I should start trying a toy reward and that my dog doesn't need a prong. Both of these people have plenty of experience and titled many dogs HOT/B-HOT. I'm not fishing for specific training advice, lord knows I'm still processing what we've been learning over the past few weeks, but what I want to know is, do you get to a point where you just have to commit to one person/club/method and stick it out? Because I am so green I don't know who is "better" or who is more right, and I feel like if I pick bits from one and bits from another maybe they will conflict with each other. But I don't want to pick a method because it's easier or more comfortable for me (for example, training with food is "easier" for me because up until now that's all I've ever done, my other dogs have no drive for balls, and training without a prong is more natural to me because my other dog is so submissive she doesn't need that). Do I just go with my gut? Each time I do some training with someone, I feel like I'm playing that halftime baseball game where you put your nose on the bat, spin until you're dizzy, and then try to run bases with everyone screaming at you to go this way, no that way, no back this way. I go through this cycle of being nervous, then feeling like a complete idiot, then finally we do something right and are redeemed, but then the next day I wake up feeling really overwhelmed and thinking maybe I'll just do something else. I haven't been doing hardly anything at home (we've been doing conditioning and show stuff b/c I'm OK with that, and some basic obedience) because I'm too scared to do it wrong when these people say do it this way and these other people say no do it this way.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

I'm not sure my advice is any good since I'm not training in schutzhund, but my feelings are to go with your gut feelings. Do what works best for you, and what is comfortable for you, as long as it is not hindering you or your dog. Every dog is different, and every trainer has different methods. You need to decide what works best for you and your dog as a TEAM, and go with that. Listen to all advice that is given, and be prepared to try something different if what you are doing is not giving you the results you want.

I found when training my 2 girls in agility, I had to use completely different/opposite methods for each dog. One had treats, one had toys, and my body language had to be different for each one too!


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## kjwalker95 (Feb 7, 2008)

Lies,
I was in the same boat. I get confused with TOO much advice, much of it from people that I admire and respect, that I have chosen to go with what works for Bailey and I. She has great food and ball drive.....so for the show ring I stick with bait unless the judge says "no bait" and then I'm screwed...no not really For everything else I go with the ball because it's convenient and I work her before going into the ring with the ball. More than anything I have given up this idea that I can "ruin" her because it's most important to me that she is happy doing any activity with me. Plus I think she likes that we mix up it and keep the rewards flexible. So from this newbie I would say go with your gut because you know Nikon best. It has made me much happier during training.....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I thought of another example: One person told me that besides training and proofing sitz, platz, and rewarding heeling when it's offered, he doesn't really do obedience until the dog is a year old. Then I go somewhere else and am told that obedience is the MOST important thing and I should focus on that. Maybe "it depends on the dog" is the answer, but how would I know, if they both watched me and my dog, and did some work with my dog themselves? That's where I get confused. I'm happy to do exactly as I am told, but I'm a pretty straight-forward person and don't like having to read into things so these types of situations are where I'm getting very confused.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Liesje, relax! You are completely on the right track! You know your dog best, and your gut won't lead you wrong! There are as many ways to train, whether it is Schutzhund or any other activity, as there are trainers X handlers X dog = a lot of choices! I always say that dog training is an art, not a science, so lots of fiddling and adjusting as you go along. 

We are a very young club here, isolated and limited in experience, most of us training or titling our first or second dog, for fun. Not serious competitors. We try to make up for our collective lack of experience by having people from other clubs with more experience come and give us weekend seminars. Even they tell us to not have too many different people with different training styles in, because it will only confuse us. They say to develop relationships with one or two trainers who train in a similar style and have them come back on a regular basis, because, as you have found out, too much information can be counter-productive, especially when coupled to a lack of experience, it makes it more difficult to know what would work for us, and what would not. 

When we have trials, we try to get the judge to stay an extra day and give us a mini-seminar, so still, we get a lot of different info. But our attitude is that even if we come away with ONE training insight that will help us progress, then it was worth it. 

And I don't fret the food vs toy, or the prong vs. no prong training theories. Some people have very strong opinions on that, others will let you choose what you feel works best for your dog(s). The one person we have come up regularly, who trains and competes at world level - and we love his insight and guidance, tells us to use food OR toy rewards, but never both. Guess what? With Keeta, I still use both, in the same training session, depending what I'm trying to accomplish. And I don't feel that it is either wrong, or right, it just is MY training style. 

My advice is, if something resonates, go with it, if not (and you don't think it would cause a problem with either Nikon nor Kenya), try it out, file the information away in the back of your mind to add to your training toolbox that may come in handy at a later date, and go with your gut. 

I've done this tons of time, because Keeta is softer and not as high drive as the working line dogs, so I have often had to adjust the training to get the most out of her, and had to know when to say no, I'm not doing that. Sure, I've made mistakes, used poor judgement, and made bad decisions, but one does not learn without being willing to experiment, and risk making some mistakes.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote: but what I want to know is, do you get to a point where you just have to commit to one person/club/method and stick it out? Because I am so green I don't know who is "better" or who is more right, and I feel like if I pick bits from one and bits from another maybe they will conflict with each other.


I am also relatively new to the sport, having only been involved for about 2 years now. I have had similar feelings as you, but I am at the point now where I am feeling much more comfortable with both my individual dog and my skills as a handler in the sport. I most certainly have a long, long ways to go as a handler







but I've learned so much along the way, thanks to some excellent mentors and trainers, that I now feel as though I have lots of valuable training "tools" to draw from my "training toolbox", with many more to be added along the way as I continue to progress in the sport. 

My 2 cents are to go with your gut, yet keep adding more things to your toolbox....some things will work with some dogs, while others may not, but in the end, all the tools help us to become better handlers and better trainers as we acquire more knowledge. Don't be afraid to be assertive but respectful if you feel strongly about something that you perceive as not being beneficial for you and your dog. Don't be afraid to ask for rationale as to why someone is making certain suggestions: often, this helps me to better appreciate a point of view that I had otherwise not even considered.

Really, I think what it ultimately boils down to is finding/developing a training philosophy that fits with you and then building a training framework through various methodologies/techniques that fit within your philosophy. This takes time, so in response to your question, I think it will get clearer, but until then, I can relate to how frustrating it can be at times! In a way, I do kind of like the "arghh" feeling because it really forces me to think about things more critically, rather than just accept and do. I think lots of "newbie" reactions (I've been there and still am in many ways) are to just "do" because we feel so limited in our knowledge and comfort level. It is something we must challenge I think, because I do believe that too many different methods that are conflicting in underlying philosophy can cause confusion for the dog (and us!).

None of this has probably really answered your question! I wish I had the magical answer for you







but I don't....just thought I might chime in since I was feeling very much like you are now not so long ago.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote: I always say that dog training is an art, not a science, so lots of fiddling and adjusting as you go along.












PS Lucia - I see a little "Birthday Cake" icon above your avatar! Happy B-day!!!!!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What about things where I can see they are right but I'm still not willing to totally give in (compromise maybe)? Am I shooting myself in the foot? For example, I let my dogs play with each other, and I let them play with toys alone or with each other. I've been told close to a half a dozen times now that I should be limiting my dogs' interaction and that toys should only be with me. My compromise was that there are certain toys that only come from me (tugs, rags, balls on strings) and I thought I did a good job making sure Nikon was not dominated as a puppy, or that if he was the one being dominant, I removed him before the other dogs might have corrected him for it (even if deserved). Another thing is the kennel argument. I don't even have a problem kenneling dogs but not everyone lives on an acreage, I live in the city on rented property so a kennel is not even an option for me, but when we travel we've been doing things like have Nikon (and the other dogs) sleep in their kennels in the van or in someone's building (normally he sleeps in a kennel next to my bed). So I can totally understand that yeah, if I crate or kennel Nikon most of the time, the few times I take him out to work he's going to be SUPER happy to be with me and maybe more focused on what we are doing, but I'm just not going to to that. So now my dog is labeled a "pet", which I guess is fine with me because that IS what he is, but I feel like people are waiting for me to come around and decide he's not a pet any more. 



> Quote:The one person we have come up regularly, who trains and competes at world level - and we love his insight and guidance, tells us to use food OR toy rewards, but never both. Guess what? With Keeta, I still use both, in the same training session, depending what I'm trying to accomplish. And I don't feel that it is either wrong, or right, it just is MY training style.


LOL that reminds me of an instance where I remember being told it's important to do some kind of training almost every day, even just 5-10 minutes at a time, b/c how can we expect results if we don't put in the time? Right? Then the same person who said this brings out a dog and says "oh he's not really focused b/c we haven't worked with him in a few weeks." See...so confusing! "Do as I say, not as I do" I guess? 

ETA: ^ I'm not trying to bash anyone, I actually found that quite funny and laughed to myself, but it just illustrates these little things that really confuse people like me that are trying to do it right and be right by my dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI thought of another example: One person told me that besides training and proofing sitz, platz, and rewarding heeling when it's offered, he doesn't really do obedience until the dog is a year old. Then I go somewhere else and am told that obedience is the MOST important thing and I should focus on that.


Having started an older dog who had NO training until she was over a year old, and now bringing along a pup, I'm in the second school of thought. There is reason and theory behind both peoples' belief, and the best thing is to talk to a number of people who have trained dogs to see what they think, and see what makes sense to you. 

The waiting until the dog is a year old is pretty out-dated thinking. Yet in Schutzhund, there is a risk of doing too much obedience with a young dog at an early age, and thus inhibiting their natural drive and exhuberance, as they are afraid that they will get in trouble if they pull on the line, bark, move away from the handler, etc. . . 

With a puppy, I think more of shaping behaviours, more than actually training obedience. Rewarding behaviours that I wanted when offered (like looking at me, walking by my side, sitting by the door), rather than demanding them and correcting for them. It took a long time, but Falkor will now move into a Foos position from anywhere, and even remember to push in his butt to be straight! I did not do what I would call "formal" ob with him until he was six or seven months, so maybe a compromise between the "early OB a must" school of thought, and the "no formal OB until a year old" school of thought. 

So in response to your example above, MY view is that there is a golden middle - I think that having some background as to how and why people have different theories, and hearing stories or seeing how too much OB in one dog at an early age has inhibited their drives on the field (won't leave the handlers side to move towards the helper because their OB training has ingrained the behaviour to not leave the handler's side from a very early age), to seeing dogs that are hectic and difficult to control because the OB foundations were not laid at the right time - not Keeta, but it is easier to set a good foundation early), can go a long way in helping you unravel much of the confusion. 

For me, training is for fun, and learning, and I enjoy seeing and understanding all the little stray strands of work we do come together into a cohesive whole, and have AHA! momments along the way. But since you have clear goals of titling, I can understand that the contradictory info seems to take you further away from your goals rather than closer. Still, I know you have Nikon and Kenya and are working them because you enjoy working them. So when contradictory info comes along, the "why" behind it helps to clear things up.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I am all for compromise!

As for my dogs, they are my best friends...my companions first. Lots of advice out there re: toys, kenneling etc. I think it depends on both the dog and you, as the handler - what are your personal beliefs etc.

I would love to one day advance in the sport to a higher competition level, but I am one who allows my dogs free range of the house, the toys, etc (although they do not rule the roost [although they certainly try their hardest







] and they know this well). That said, if this prevents me from attaining higher levels of competition, I'm totally ok with that, but I will try my darn best to do so anyways. I don't think/believe that all competition dogs need to be kennel dogs etc, although I am sure many would argue that fact,and that's ok by me







I think you have to do what you think is right...at the end of the day, we have to be happy with our decisions, and I think our dogs do too.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

About kenneling your dogs: I hear this a lot. Remember that a lot of the advice you get are from seasoned trainers who are serious about earning top scores at high level competition. Your goals and my goals for our dogs are different. They can still do Shutzhund and earn titles, and even do very well, and still be house pets. If my goals for Falkor where going to the worlds, I would be doing things differently, that's for sure! 

But my goals for him and for me is to have fun, so that is my focus. And I do the same as you, there are ball and tug rewards that Keeta goes nuts for, and they only come out at training. Falkor goes nuts for anything, LOL, but as he gets older, I'll find that one or two special thing that he will really turn him on, and save those for training only, other toys are available at other times.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Nicole L
> 
> 
> > Quote: I always say that dog training is an art, not a science, so lots of fiddling and adjusting as you go along.
> ...


Thanks! Tina took me out for lunch!


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I went through the same and let me tell you there comes a point where you will have to choose one person to follow unless you want to be pulled in a million different directions and make no progress with your dog. And even if you make wonderful progress with your dog you will always have people question your methods. Such is dog sport.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:let me tell you there comes a point where you will have to choose one person to follow unless you want to be pulled in a million different directions and make no progress with your dog.


Exactly! 

If you are new to the sport and have a young dog, it's best to stick with one good person you like and trust, keep the training consistent and build a solid foundation.. too many dogs get screwed up because their handlers flip flop back and forth between and each person is doing something different.. The dog is totally confused and is the handler!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"The waiting until the dog is a year old is pretty out-dated thinking. "

According to whom? I am curious. True trainers that do it for sport - no. Talking to Pierre and he practices, who won the Worlds in 2007, was vice in 2006 and is a top working judge, that is what he does. He lets the dog grow up, If the dog has it from a genetic aspect, it will be there. Talking to working people that compete at a high level that actually train and title their own dogs (this is a fine point), this is what they do.

When Gabor was training Adie (3-3 Cello, our dog) a few years ago, he got a lot of flak (esp from a show person in the area  ) as she was not trained and titled before 2. But, she had better work on the field in the trial (not just in training). Her bitework on a strange field, strange working helper, 95 degrees and a working judge was 98 points.....


"Yet in Schutzhund, there is a risk of doing too much obedience with a young dog at an early age, and thus inhibiting their natural drive and exhuberance, as they are afraid that they will get in trouble if they pull on the line, bark, move away from the handler, etc. . . "

Somewhat correct. There is basic OB that you can do.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86"The waiting until the dog is a year old is pretty out-dated thinking. "
> 
> According to whom? I am curious.


LOL, according to what I heard other people say! So not an expert, of course, I'm talking more from the point of view of a beginner trying to bring perspective to another beginner. Like I was saying, there is no right or wrong, but different theories and methodologies, and one can use what one finds best for them.

I think it was at one time widely held and practiced to not even start OB until the dog was older? But then things have changed some, and more people found that starting some basic ob earlier did not cause problems? Just thinking out loud here. 

I'm also wondering (and this is just conjecture - not saying that people who do wait until the dog is older do this), that in the "olden" days, OB was more compulsion based, so it WAS better to wait until the dog was older. Again, NOT saying that people today who do this use heavy compulsion in their training, but wondering if that is were the "wait until your dog is a year old" theory comes from.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Lies,

Here's $.02 from another newbie.

The first thing you have to decide is what is your #1 goal for Nikon. That decision will have a great influence on what you do and how you train.

Our #1 goal for Mauser is to be a well behaved, social, family pet that coexists with the pack peacefully.

So, we started off by totally ignoring ALOT of what we were told or read.

We did *NOT* wait before starting obedience. A dog needs some obedience in order to live in your house with you (and your other dogs). Sure - most of what we did was very basic obedience - Sit, Come, Stay, walk nicely on leash, etc. It was all done use positive motivation.

We do *NOT* keep him separated from the other dogs. He needed to learn right from the start to live in a pack - that's the way we live here. If that makes for lower scores in Schutzhund, oh well. The scores are not what we live with every day - the dog IS!

We use whatever motivates him the best. He is VERY food driven and only recently has found balls to be fun. He doesn't seem to like to tug with us but tugs like crazy with our trainer.

So - my advice? Decide what your main goal is for him THEN pick the club/trainer/training methods that fit best with his goal.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have seen poeple work with clickers with pups as young as 8 weeks and get amazing results.

The whole wait to a year thing can be good or bad IMO - much depends on the TD/Helper and HOW they bring out the pups drives - I know that some of mine would have benefitted by waiting and others were not affected by waiting at all.....again, this is more based on the methods used by the trainers than the dog itself, and how you relate to the trianing.

Some pups are into balls from day 1, others are more food motivated...some are so into balls, you have to go to food to keep them under control and learning rather than have them go into overdrive and obsessed with the ball/tug/toy....some pups don't seem to be into balls and then WHAM at 5 or 6 months - they are nuts about balls/toys....and some pups you must marshall every bit of drive to train effectively...only you can decide what your pup's reactions are and what he needs...

You can always learn at least one thing - even if the thing is that you are not going to use method X - from every one you work with IMO - a closed mind and someone who acts as if training is set in stone is someone I would avoid - one of the best trainers/helpers I have known is one who goes to every seminar he can, and always takes away something to incorporate into his reprotraire (sp??) - you should never stop learning! 

There is no black and white, written in stone way of training - if there were, we'd all have Schh3 dogs who performed at V levels at every trial! Dogs are animals and have personalities and the key is fitting your ability, the dogs ability and the training into the best experience for you both.

Lee


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:There is no black and white, written in stone way of training - if there were, we'd all have Schh3 dogs who performed at V levels at every trial! Dogs are animals and have personalities and the key is fitting your ability, the dogs ability and the training into the best experience for you both.


Excellent point Lee!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thanks Leesa, and lucky you for having that helper - I know you understand what I am saying!

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Basic obediene in terms of manners is normal. Some focus work Formal OB can wait. That is why I mentioned basic.

Does not matter if high level or club level. The initial time is to develop the relationship with the dog, socialize, travel, exposure to as many different situations as possible. Board the dog, stay in a hotel - what if you have to do those two things later on due to a situation or trial?

I did not seriously start working Baer until he was at least1.5 years old. Club level dog. Club where helpers did not charge for work. Everyone who started tracking at 8 weeks, formal OB ASAP and bitework (hard sleeve at 7 months) titled way after Baer. I trained for later titles from the get go to get the foundation in (at that point) once I started really working him at 18 months.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Dogs mature differently. From our standpoint - we want to have a good and strong relationship with the dog. Everything is not about the training and the work, but what builds the foundation for it and YOUR relationship with the dog. It is about the fun of and figuring out how to get there. 

Working with helpers that know what they are doing and doing it for the sport (not a business), have trained and titled dogs repeatedly before and done consistent well and present themselves well. That helped me with Baer - these guys were not cookie cutter trainers. They trained a whole range of dogs, pluse were the certified K9 trainers. And we had a club that encouraged you to watch other people at the club train and compete.

They did not suffer fools in that club. They wanted you to be part of the club, learn from everyone. Aks questions, but not be the automatic expert (those people ending up "leaving"). Seminars from people that knew how to teach and do consistently, not just the "flash in the pan"

Baer did therapy work at the Ronald McDonald House - that was part of his foundation when he was young.

Once I started really training Baer; to train and title him through a 2 was 1.5 years; that was with a 6 month hitaus of him lounging on my parents couch when I was traveling and training when I was working 50 plus hours a week.

"Our #1 goal for Mauser is to be a well behaved, social, family pet that coexists with the pack peacefully."

Laurie,

Excellent point. Genetics as well as socializing play a great part on that. Our dogs have to co-exist within our group (especially having a young child) and behave when they see other dogs, people and children. 

I know that I have mentioned this before about Max, but he is one of the best solid dogs that I have seen in terms of temperament in a very hectic environment (enclose agility), just chilling and very approachable, even to a 4 year old. That is internal.


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## rperry (Jan 18, 2009)

<span style='font-family: Century Gothic'>Lies,

I am SO glad that you posted about this! I have been worried and thinking about the same things, so I really enjoyed reading everyone's responses. Joe and I have been talking about it a lot too, and there's no way that I could NOT have Schumi as a pet. I mean, look at the way I treat him! I just can't do it. He's my "first" dog and that's how I want it. I'm being more strict now and not babying him, but I love him as my companion.

As for doing lots of obedience training as a puppy, I am going to start doing what Ron and Chris taught me with the ball and see how it works with Schumi and I. For me, it's my way to get control of Schumi. I don't know if it was me babying him or not having much time to work with him this past fall, but I have lost some control of him and even after our session on Friday he's been listening to me more quickly. 

Also, about letting Nikon play with the other dogs, I don't know that much about it. But, what I do know is, when Schumi sees other dogs right now he is obsessed and wants to play with them all! He doesn't have dogs to play with at home and hasn't had many play dates with the crappy weather. Thank goodness spring is around the corner so I can change that. I think Nikon isn't as bad because he has dogs to play with at home.</span>


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangLies,
> 
> Here's $.02 from another newbie.
> 
> ...


Lauri this sounds very like me. I have been trying to think of my #1 goal, and it's sort of a Catch 22 b/c I've always been amused by people who tell me "Oh I'm getting a dog for therapy work and agility!" before the pup is even born, without considering what the _dog_ is interested in. Assuming Nikon can actually fit any mold I choose, my number one goal is to have a dog that is a good representative of his breed. I want him to be correct physically, mentally, in terms of drive, clear-headed, solid and stable temperament, a dog I can turn on and turn off so he knows when we are "working" but also when we are just snuggling on the couch. I would like him V-rated in show and Koer'd. This is not for breeding purposes, but that the V-rating somewhat implies the things I have already stated (he would have to be SchH2, AD, correct conformation, good hips) and it's a tangible goal I can set for us.

I have been blessed so far in that I've found some great people who train and trial both working AND show lines (and other breeds like Mals, Rotts, Boerboel, etc) and don't really care one way or the other. So that is one obstacle that hasn't presented itself yet.


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## baxterbrown11 (Mar 23, 2009)

I have been in that spot since last year.
You get lost trying to figure out the right way to train your dog. All dogs are different.
And I was a little late in tracking her and obedience, I was sick the first two yrs after I bought her. but did alot of agitation and bite work. so she was ready for that.
But, I am very novice in tracking and obedience.
And for me people in the club was like oh I like her and yes she can easily get a sch title. But, then when they found out about her bloodlines things change, and heaven forbid my dog make any mistakes. Does your dogs make any mistakes?? Just wondering I feel my dog got targeted because of what she is. But, I don't understand because bull dogs and other dogs require a slight different training at times.
Am I right and or sort of right??
I got so lost at times because I didn't understand what I was doing right or wrong. I am more on track right now, but is there any suggestions other than above for me to take into consideration?
The most troublesome is the unfriendly environment. I have at least maybe 3 people who are nice, only 2 willing to help maybe.
But, if you don't really feel confident in people giving you the right advice where do you go from there.?


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I would either figure things out on my own, buck up and take a trip to spend some time training with someone who is willing to help and actually knows something, or find another sport for your dog.

Don't think the thought of doing only obedience and tracking because I can't find a club I'm happy with hasn't crossed my mind many, many times. I would rather give up something I love doing than train in that kind of environment.


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

It's hard to give advise on training without actually seeing you and the dog. 
For me if the dog has good food drive it's easier to teach the exercises. After the dog learns the exercises (sit, down, heel, come etc.) and the dog has good toy drive i then incorperate the toy to make things faster. 
No prong needed. All done on a fur savor. Depending on the dog a prong can stimulate the dog. Then you'll create more problems. Stick with what works for your dog. If you find something that works then do it. 
After you get basics down then you can start messin around with ideas to try to make things faster or more correct. You can always go back to basics. 
Gathering info is great. Doesn't mean you have to apply it. Keep it stored in the back of your mind incase you need it later on.
One thing i will say is stick with one training person for the foundation work in Bitework. After the foundation work is done then you can go work your dog with different helpers. Just do your homework for the person you use for the foundation work. 

Mark
http://www.ultimatekanine.com


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I am in and have been in the same boat also. 

Club #1 did not like my GSD because she was very hectic they did not like her to the point of telling me to do and train things wrong with her and I did not get the best help from the helper in catching my dogs. 
Forget about what they said about my Boxer when I went back to them! They said that my boxer was a fighting dog and would not make a good schutzhund dog at all. 


Club #2 in the states told me that she was not as good as my boxer.. But I was not there long enough to really learn anything from them. 

Club #3 liked my GSD and she did progress but then they could not help me go any further beyond last year..

Bernhard Flinks like both my dogs very much (the boxer more so) said they both had promise but GSD would only make a nice dog to learn with and try new things on now because she is almost 6.... and gave me back my hope and will to continue to train out the mistakes of club 1...

Club #4 did not like me because I questioned everything and all their methods because they were attacking the methods of club #3 and the training director. 

Club #5 (the new one) likes my GSD likes my boxer and they are showing me a few tips and tricks to take along with me to apply to the next dog. 

All you can do is suck up all the knowledge you can store it apply it use it if it works and if you agree with it and ask questions when ever you can.


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