# Going from "Bad" Cop to "Good" Cop: The Transition from Negative to Positive Training



## Ellie&Indy (Sep 8, 2015)

*Going from "Bad" Cop to "Good" Cop: The Transition from Negative to Positive Training*

Before my GSD my dogs were a combination of positive and negative training, however it always leaned negative. When we enrolled in an AKC S.T.A.R. puppy class, I was introduced to Positive Reinforcement only.

Gradually, I started learning to not use leash jerks or yelling. He picked up things faster than any other dog I've had. At 5 months, he's already starting manners two this coming Wednesday. (11/18/15) He graduated his manners one with top marks because we worked solely with positive reinforcement training. The other dogs in his class were all older than him spare the 12 week old Lab pup. The breeds were diverse with some mutts, a little foofy dog, a hound, and two purebreds. (Indy and the Lab Pup.) 

I learned so much more, and bonded better with my dog thanks to positive reinforcement. Everything is mutually respectful between the two of us. He also wants to work for me, not because he's being forced but because he genuinely wants to hear that clicker sound and be praised. I was never expecting to have a well behaved positive reinforcement dog, but I guess Indy was right.

Do you have any stories of your experience with Positive reinforcement and your transition from anything other than positive to positive only? Please Share.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is wonderful!!! LOVE hearing stories like this. I was sorta like you too, with my introduction to positive reinforcement, and how it made a believer out of me with my rescue dog. 

I used to feel that you shouldn't have to bribe your dog to listen to you, dog should listen just because. Things were fine with my first rescue, a Spaniel/Retriver/Who-Knows-What-Else mutt, but it was a different story with Keeta, my second dog, and also a rescue. 

She was independent strong willed, and had no previous connection to people, and it seemed to me that everything was a power struggle! It was exhausting! It was not the relationship I wanted with my dog, so I reached out for help and signed up for Dog Obedience Classes - something I resisted in the past because I though Dog Obedience would be boring. And who needs classes??? Look at my first dog, I had no previous experience, and he turned out just fine, without any formal training - classes must be for stupid people (or so I arrogantly thought to myself). 

Well, the classes I signed up for made a convert out of me. First of all, it was FUN!!! Second of all, something clicked in Keeta's brain, and she did 180 turn-around - she GOT it! She got that we were a team, that doing stuff is fun and rewarding, she loved these new games of trying to figure out what she needed to do, and being successful at it, and there were treats treats treats!!! Treats unlocked all her inner potential - it was so simple, I'm embarassed that I was so resistent to the idea beforehand. 

She did so well in the classes, that the instructor invited me to be an assistant in his classes, (which I did for about a year) and introduced us to Schutzhund, feeling we had a lot of potential. Got me hooked on training, and made a complete believer out of me in regards to positive reinforcement training. 

Corrections do have their place in dog training, but that is more for reinforcing what a dog already knows. When it comes to teaching behaviours, developing a bond, and setting up a dog to WANT to work with you and listen to you, the only way to go is by having fun with your dog.


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## T-Bone'sMamma (Mar 3, 2012)

I love these stories, too. I'm so glad for the people who've changed and for the dogs who get to have a much happier existence. When I think back to how I treated dogs ten years ago, I am ashamed of myself. Jerking leashes, thumping noses, physically manipulating dogs into a sit, etc. part of it definitely was upbringing... You mimic what you see, and that's how I saw dogs be trained. I never abused my dogs and always loved them, but sometimes I could see in their eyes that they were afraid or unsure of what I would do. One day the woman who is like my mother (didn't raise me) asked me, do you hit things or yell at things you love? Clearly the answer is no. She never did her dogs like that, and I saw a bond between them that I didn't have with my dogs. Her dog chose to longer near her just because, and watched her with soft eyes. My dogs would stand next to me, tail down and avert eye contact. I started reading everything I could about positive training and conditioning. To make a long story short.... My dogs now give me soft eyes and relaxed body language now too  and- I am way less stressed out! Dog ownership should be a fun bond, not still sergeant and recruit.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

When I was younger and thought I knew everything(lol!) I read a few dog training books and though I loved and bonded with my dogs and used praise and leash corrections,it only went so far.Many times they would obey reluctantly because I had to be stern or they wouldn't listen.Acting like a drill Sgt wasn't pleasant for either of us.I could never teach the heel or the quiet command which was frustrating.Why couldn't I communicate what I wanted??Like Lucia,I took my first puppy class.Then everything became clear
Since then I've taken classes,read about and watched videos about various ways to train and motivate my dogs.Positive methods,body language,tone of voice,enthusiasm,etc.Seems the dogs and I learn something new daily.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

...and then they come to me because their doggy wont behave .


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Positive training is great. I did it with mine for the first 6 months. Then, after seeing and learning from ME, I learned that it is not zero sum game. You don't have to do one or the other. As long as you are fair in your corrections, you are fine. The problem is many people don't know how to be fair. 

The idea that positive only is the only way to go is silly. To me, it doesn't make sense to not correct a dog when a correction is called for. There are so many positive only trainers around and I have seen some of their dogs. They are not an example of how I would want my dog to act. Absolutely no control over their dogs. Growling at other dogs, barking, can't walk on leash and not to mention, none of them compete in OB. How can they call themselves trainers and have their dogs be such terrible examples of their work?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I wish it had been that way for me and Newlie, but it wasn't. He is not a hard dog at all, he loves me, is very affectionate, is good with other adults and kids and has never shown any aggression at all toward people, so you would think he would be the perfect candidate for all positive training. And I don't know quite how to decribe it other than to say he has a mind of his own. He loves treats, he loves praise, he loves affection, but none of that has any pull with him if there is something he would rather do. Sometimes, I can watch him and see the wheels turning: "OK, Mom has a cookie I really like, but she wants me to (fill in the blank) but I really need to (fill in the blank), so I will worry about that later."

I had to get a prong collar in order to have some control over him on walks and he still wears that. I had to use an e-collar a few times to work on his recall and that really helped. He hasn't worn it for long time now, though, because he does come now maybe 90-95% of the time. We still work on it now, but without the collar. The truth of the matter is that I will never be comfortable with him off-leash, but we work on it, just in case there's an oops..like I trip and fall and drop the leash. The e-collar, though, is responsible for the fact that he comes to me the largest majority of time and when he doesn't, it's because he's chasing rabbits.

With all his little tricks and things, I just use treats and positive reinforcement and if he doesn't feel like doing them, fine, he just doesn't get the praise or the treat. So, I guess I use different things, depending mostly on how important it is...


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

eddie1976E said:


> Positive training is great. I did it with mine for the first 6 months. Then, after seeing and learning from ME, I learned that it is not zero sum game. You don't have to do one or the other. As long as you are fair in your corrections, you are fine. The problem is many people don't know how to be fair.
> 
> The idea that positive only is the only way to go is silly. To me, it doesn't make sense to not correct a dog when a correction is called for. There are so many positive only trainers around and I have seen some of their dogs. They are not an example of how I would want my dog to act. Absolutely no control over their dogs. Growling at other dogs, barking, can't walk on leash and not to mention, none of them compete in OB. How can they call themselves trainers and have their dogs be such terrible examples of their work?


+1. Positive is great when it works, and I use it myself whenever my dog reacts well to it, but not correcting bad behaviour is condoning it. I've yet to come across a positive-only trainer that has dogs earning titles in Schutzhund or something similar.

Heck, up until a ~half a year ago my dog would simply not show any interest in treats when we were outside. I mean ZERO interest with the treat being right in front of her mouth. Then something changed and she clued in that treats are good stuff. 

There's a reason the vast majority of positive-only trainers outright refuse to work with dogs that have any sort of aggression issues. Anyone can complete a 40-hour course, train a 20lb scruffy to sit and shake paws, and call themselves a "positive only trainer." Not nearly as many people can handle working a working-line GSD.

It's all about balance and doing what's right for the dog in front of you.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The very phrasing of the thread tells you all you need to know about why things did not work out.
Your not a "cop" in any sense of the word. There is no magical formula of reward to punishment to achieve a compliant dog.
Reward and punishment are tools as much as a prong collar or clicker is. 

A good trainer does not mire themselves in "positive" and "negative" again phrases that show a lack of understanding of good training.

You can use an ecollar, clicker, ball and stick all at the same time or you can use your hand, foot and some food. If you anderstand how to ballance the delivery of stimulus to achieve the desired result.

A good trainer like a craftsmen uses tools to achieve the desired level of compliance, precision and drive in the dog.

All that being said many people become confused and try to equate how you train a sport dog with how you train a pet. 

The two are not the same and to attempt to train the dog the same way will cost you in one venue or the other, most likely both. 

A pet requires calm, relaible compliance. This is easy to achieve and should take a skilled trainer no longer then 2 weeks to a month. 

By this I am referring to a dog that will recall, heel offleash through distraction, sit, down and kennel. Have leash manners and healthy social interactions.

A little food, crude markers, prong and remote collar is all that I use for this.

Basic obedience on leash should only require a couple of sessions.

Sport training is a completely different story and is trained in a very different manner. Assuming that is that you require speed, precision and drive to be expressed in the work. 
If you are doing rally or AKC type stuff that is not so much the case as these venues prefer a less active or powerful expression then IPO for instance. Ofcourse this makes them easier to train for and subsequently should require much less time.

There are many trainers that offer services to the public that:

A) Have no right to call themselves trainers
B) Utilize incomplete training theory in their practess that lead to unreliable dogs
C) Offer a mixture of gimmicks like meaningless grades / certificates and on the other hand emotional blackmail like using buzz words fear, pain, violence to keep the uneducated returning.

Training that is not clear is slow, training that is not ballanced is stressful (regardless how many cookies you shove down his throat), lack of clarity and ballance in a training system is unsafe, unsavory and downright abusive to the reliance and trust that our dogs place in us.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You know...

I just got done training a 14 week old puppy (now. he came in 2 weeks ago at 12 weeks old) to recall at super high reliability even off of chasing another dog in play, to place and place stay under high distraction, to down and down stay under real world distraction, to stay at doors before released, and also how to stay engaged with me with other stuff going on. Most importantly I taught him not to be annoying and fixed his hand biting issues. He has a full play retrieve on him now with outs and all that jazz.

I did not give the puppy a single piece of food for any of that. He got nothing but excitement and puppy party from me. It was taught through tactful pressure use of a slipleash corrections from my hands and ecollar where appropriate. He does not need the ecollar on to get any of that to happen. He does not need leash help to get any of that to happen now.

The dog looks and is happy. Our relationship is fantastic. He isn't afraid of me. He does everything fast with enthusiasm and looking at him people would assume I was giving him crack for obedience. I didn't spend more than 15 minutes a day with him on formal training. I would pit him against another trainers adult dog in a heartbeat.

Learn to train. It isn't about "positive" or "negative" the way you use those terms aren't even correct.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

eddie1976E said:


> Positive training is great. I did it with mine for the first 6 months. Then, after seeing and learning from ME, I learned that it is not zero sum game. You don't have to do one or the other. As long as you are fair in your corrections, you are fine. The problem is many people don't know how to be fair.
> 
> The idea that positive only is the only way to go is silly. To me, it doesn't make sense to not correct a dog when a correction is called for ...


I agree, you don't have to do one or another and that is what Balanced training is more or less about. Positive reinforcement with appropriate corrections as needed and fairness. One thing I object to is equating prongs and e-collars with leash jerks and yelling. If you are doing that then you are doing something wrong. Period. I use prongs (and e-collars as necessary) and I don't yank or jerk my dogs around. They get a rapid fire snap in as much as it takes to get their attention. I certainly don't yell at them. I expect them to respond to my normal speaking tone, or even a lower volume. My dog would take me for a fool if I went the whole positive route with him. He's like a kid you bribe with candy to be good but will act up again because you did not correct him.

I firmly believe that to advocate only one or another method of training across the board is very unfair to dogs. Each dog needs to have the training that is best suited for that dog and some breeds respond better to certain types of training that others, not that there aren't exceptions to those breeds.


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

I recommend dog training collars one way of effecting good behaviour in your dog. However this does not mean that this is the only effective way or that you can never give a chance to the dog to take a command any other way.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You know...
> 
> I just got done training a 14 week old puppy (now. he came in 2 weeks ago at 12 weeks old) to recall at super high reliability even off of chasing another dog in play, to place and place stay under high distraction, to down and down stay under real world distraction, to stay at doors before released, and also how to stay engaged with me with other stuff going on. Most importantly I taught him not to be annoying and fixed his hand biting issues. He has a full play retrieve on him now with outs and all that jazz.
> 
> ...


 I did see one well know training using treats to teach "The Place Command" I've only used that clip once! Frankly I was horrified, the dog was clearly viewing him as a treat machine! I'll not use that one again. 




Baillif said:


> Learn to train. It isn't about "positive" or "negative" the way you use those terms aren't even correct.


 Good to know and that explains my confusion!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The very phrasing of the thread tells you all you need to know about why things did not work out.
> Your not a "cop" in any sense of the word. There is no magical formula of reward to punishment to achieve a compliant dog.
> Reward and punishment are tools as much as a prong collar or clicker is.
> 
> ...


 I know nothing of Sport training ... but I get what your saying.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MythicMut said:


> I agree, you don't have to do one or another and that is what Balanced training is more or less about. Positive reinforcement with appropriate corrections as needed and fairness. One thing I object to is equating prongs and e-collars with leash jerks and yelling. If you are doing that then you are doing something wrong. Period. I use prongs (and e-collars as necessary) and I don't yank or jerk my dogs around. They get a rapid fire snap in as much as it takes to get their attention. I certainly don't yell at them. I expect them to respond to my normal speaking tone, or even a lower volume. My dog would take me for a fool if I went the whole positive route with him. He's like a kid you bribe with candy to be good but will act up again because you did not correct him.
> 
> I firmly believe that to advocate only one or another method of training across the board is very unfair to dogs. Each dog needs to have the training that is best suited for that dog and some breeds respond better to certain types of training that others, not that there aren't exceptions to those breeds.


 Yep .. pretty much this ^^^.


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## Ruben! (Sep 25, 2015)

Very interesting read. Do you guys think it would be worth it to add to this conversation some resources to look at (like videos, books, etc...) so people can educate themselves on top of what they get from their coaches? So for example, I know Michael Ellis and Ivan Balabanov but thats it.


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## Ellie&Indy (Sep 8, 2015)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The very phrasing of the thread tells you all you need to know about why things did not work out.
> Your not a "cop" in any sense of the word. There is no magical formula of reward to punishment to achieve a compliant dog.
> Reward and punishment are tools as much as a prong collar or clicker is.
> 
> ...


Ok here's the thing what is referred to as "Positive" in this post, treats, simple collars and firm vocal corrections. It's acceptable for martingales, easy leaders and no pull harnesses. Personally I refuse to use chain choke collars, I'll use leather collars, but having seen the damage that prong collars and chain chokes do to the fur and skin on dogs, not to MENTION the increase in arthritis in the neck and tracheal disorders and injuries. He is still told firmly no if redirection with a toy or with a command to focus his energy and mind on something else doesn't work. I will not do IPO with him ever, he's to be a service and therapy dog, being trained to bite doesn't exactly work with those morals. I won't use an electric collar on him because the last large number of dogs I've seen became head and neck shy from them. He does respect me deeply does as he's told, and works hard. As far as having an IPO dog trained with positive reinforcement, the K-9 deputy who's sponsored by the vet clinic I work at was trained with a nylon martingale collar, a kong bone, and a clicker. He's gotten top marks in competitions and training seminars. He still does know how to perform his job in defense phases of his trials as well as in his job.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Here is why that term negative and positive is being misused.

In operant conditioning there are four quadrants

Positive Reinforcement
Positive Punishment
Negative Reinforcement
Negative Punishment

Punishment and Reinforcement don't even refer to a physical action of slapping or giving the dog something they want. It only refers to the process of weakening or strengthening a target behavior.

The positive and negative only refer to whether an external stimuli is added or removed it has nothing to do with a perceived value.

Positive reinforcement doesn't even mean you give something the dog likes to strengthen a behavior. If when you slap a dog on the nose it growls and shows its teeth at you and you slap it again on the nose and it growls and shows teeth even more and more after each slap guess what? That is positive reinforcement for growling and showing teeth. It would be negative reinforcement if you were to slap the dog till it growled and showed teeth at you then you stopped. It would be positive punishment if the dog growled showed teeth at you and you popped the dog and it stopped.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Which of those quadrants you decide to use depends on what you are trying to get accomplished. If you are tactful and clear methods traditionally associated with "pressure training" negative reinforcement and positive punishment are extremely powerful and effective and can by themselves train a happy perky dog in very reliable behaviors if done right. Positive reinforcement and negative punishment of course nice were appropriate as well. Taking tools out of the toolbox simply because you suck at using them isn't the way to be. Get good at them all and become a complete trainer.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ellie and Indy,
I think when some people see the words " positive training" they immediately think only of lures,bribes,and zero corrections.Then get a little carried away explaining why it's ineffective.
I agree with you on your opinion of choke collars,they can do damage.I do like prong collars though.They make it so much easier to communicate with a dog with light pressure distributed evenly around the neck.They are not designed for the purpose of painful corrections.We all choose the tools that work best for us and our dogs.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

My 1st dog was trained old school & inconsistently (my mom's dog), turned out great, wonderful dog.
My 2nd dog tried purely positive, he was an 'easy dog', but absolute recall did not come without an e-collar.
3rd dog, dearest Dynamo, got as 6 month puppy, she was such a pure blank slate I wanted to do it right, which meant purely positive. 3 months later, and much heartache & tears, I put her up for adoption to 'good home, no cats'. 
After teasing 2 poor people with the prospect of getting a gorgeous adolescent puppy, I changed my mind, put a prong on her, and she learned 'thou shalt not chase cats', and some other important safety lessons.
Went on to teach her all sorts of wonderful things in rally obedience and agility, clicker style. No punishments ever in the dog sport/fun category, but the 'cats are my precious babies lesson' was harsh, but she ended up being excellent with cats, and was Rikers best friend.
Personal, & true story.
Going forward, would train as above. Clicker style to get the dog to do things, shape behaviours, reward the good stuff, but when it comes to basic safety, management (ie, change the situation) and a full range of behaviour shaping, which includes punishments & negative reinforcement, but as little of that to accomplish safe behaviour. All depends on the dog. Dynamo suited her name, btw...I miss her.

Ingrid 
Currently dogless
http://kaslkaos.blogspot.ca/2015/10/...rk-in-sky.html
Cats: Riker, Simba, Batman
R.I.P. Dynamo RNMCL gsd, 2002-2015
R.I.P. Zandor gsd-mix born 1993?-2009 
R.I.P. Cats: Archer, Lennier


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ellie&Indy said:


> Ok here's the thing what is referred to as "Positive" in this post, treats, simple collars and firm vocal corrections. It's acceptable for martingales, easy leaders and no pull harnesses. Personally I refuse to use chain choke collars, I'll use leather collars, but having seen the damage that prong collars and chain chokes do to the fur and skin on dogs, not to MENTION the increase in arthritis in the neck and tracheal disorders and injuries. He is still told firmly no if redirection with a toy or with a command to focus his energy and mind on something else doesn't work. I will not do IPO with him ever, he's to be a service and therapy dog, being trained to bite doesn't exactly work with those morals. I won't use an electric collar on him because the last large number of dogs I've seen became head and neck shy from them. He does respect me deeply does as he's told, and works hard. As far as having an IPO dog trained with positive reinforcement, the K-9 deputy who's sponsored by the vet clinic I work at was trained with a nylon martingale collar, a kong bone, and a clicker. He's gotten top marks in competitions and training seminars. He still does know how to perform his job in defense phases of his trials as well as in his job.




A prong collar does not cause any injury to the neck, nor have you seen any injuries caused by training with a prong collar. Ill put money on this.
What you are talking about is embedded collars that the dog grows into because they are left on the dog. Or pressure sores caused by the dog having a tight collar left on too long.

As to the E Collar, any dog that shows shyness just from seeing one has a stupid handler and a stupider trainer. Nor will they make a dog head or neck shy, that makes no sense. Any dog I have trained with this tool gets excited when they see it. The sight of the e collar means they are going for a walk or getting some training. They have no idea that it delivers stim because I know how to use the tool.

I did not say you should train your dog as an IPO dog. I said the type of training you are doing is not revolutionary nor is it effective for pet type training which is what you want.

As for IPO. I train with a lot of motivation in IPO as do most people that have decent success. I also use tools including the prong and e collar. Every trainer on the podium or ones that have aspirations to be on the podium also use tools.

So either your sheriffs deputy is feeding you a crock of nonsense or he isnt successful. As to him training his police dog like that Id love to see this training...lol. 

A Martingale is not a training collar that if anything causes more stress due to a lack of clarity and nor is an easy walk harness. These are band aids to make you feel better not actually teach your dog anything.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

To quote the Romans, *abusus non tollit usum – the abuse of a tool is not an argument against its proper use. *While “all positive” people continue to try to dominate the conversation using a mantra that translates as “Death Before Discomfort” I am of a different opinion - I choose life.

From Gary Wilkes's "click Treat and prasie."

I'm not that "fancy" so "I've" said in the past "any tool improperly used ...can be abused!"


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Home Positive based methods, and instructors and students titling in a range of disciplines.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

LeoRose said:


> Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Home Positive based methods, and instructors and students titling in a range of disciplines.


Hah its funny watching them struggle to title a 3-5 year old dogs they have owned from 8 weeks much less win anything because they refuse to give their dogs a complete picture. The people that have success in this type of system are very limited and have a certain type of dog.

Get out there and train instead of reading about internet success, and the blinders come off. Anyway's this is sport training not training for the real world. If the dog blows you off you lose points or get DQ, the dog does not get run over by a car or knock over a child.

As for pet training it is ineffective and a waste of time and money if it takes longer then a month or two. Dogs only live so long folks, the sooner you can make them safe and reliable the sooner you both can enjoy and explore the world around you.

These stupid training schools that have you coming back over and over spending time and money for incomplete training systems are scams. They feed into your insecurities and tell you scary stories about more effective methods.

In the end if your dog wont Sit, Down, Place, recall and heel off leash under distraction at a minimum without food in your hand you have been had. If the trainer cant show you this with a demo dog or some video...run.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ellie&Indy said:


> <snipped>
> Do you have any stories of your experience with Positive reinforcement and your transition from anything other than positive to positive only? Please Share.


Nope, I have the opposite.

My street dog rescue, Smitty. I was on the PO train ride at the time.

He could have cared less about treats if something more interesting was afoot. If I did get a 'sit' he would sit slowly and then literally turn his head away from me. Click, good, mark, food he was an independent and smart dog. I was so frustrated. I gave up on him. I thought I couldn't train dogs at all. So I still loved him, still fed him, but we didn't go anywhere. He was confined to house and yard for several years. 

Then I got my WGSL dog and I realized I needed help with her. Luckily got into a group class that was balanced, followed the Micheal Ellis school, generally.

The results I got with my WGSL astounded me. Rather then be "stuck" and 'waiting' for a behavior for ever to mark reward, we taught the behavior, named the behavior then proofed the behavior. The last step involved using a leash pop, some dogs with just a flat collar some dogs with a prong. Depended on the dog.

Setting aside the 4 quadrants Bailiff brings up (correctly)


From a layperson dog owner all I can say is the results were beyond amazing. I felt empowered, I was happy, the dog was happy because there were some boundaries. What these boundaries did was break through those times the dog decided, "well at this moment I really don't want to sit" and was instructed, no you must sit. When that bottom hit the ground it was release, then YAHOOO YIPPEEEE party time. Dog happy, owner happy it's an accomplishment, another layer of communication layed down.

I then applied my new learning to my 'free spirit' dog Smitty. WHAT a difference. Our relationship went from a frustrated stalemate to one of walks in the park, training and LOTS of rewards because one leash pop followed by correct response was rewarded 10 fold.

I'll post up the video of him.

You know PO can work, for certain dogs in limited applications but most people flat out fail with it. They feel like I did, stuck, trapped and disempowered and through that the relationship with the dog is made worse.

BTW- I don't 'Yell' at my dogs while training.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh and Sea World is slowly getting out of the whale training business, just sayin'


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here he is. Tail wagging, eager and at this point no longer needs the collar.

When I was working him regularly in parks out and about his sits and downs were just as solid. I don't take him out as much because I've got too many other things on my plate now but I'm really proud of this dog, who literally would give me the 'talk to the paw' attitude and blow me off for years. 

Now we are buds and I'm super proud of how far we've come, using BALANCED training methods.

https://vimeo.com/120644186


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

nice video.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Hah its funny watching them struggle to title a 3-5 year old dogs they have owned from 8 weeks much less win anything because they refuse to give their dogs a complete picture. The people that have success in this type of system are very limited and have a certain type of dog.
> 
> Get out there and train instead of reading about internet success, and the blinders come off. Anyway's this is sport training not training for the real world. If the dog blows you off you lose points or get DQ, the dog does not get run over by a car or knock over a child.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

Susan


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