# Genetic diversity in German shepherds



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

In order to prevent derailing another thread I'm starting this to discuss the overall genetic variation in german shepherds as a breed.

Unsure how wholly accurate all of these are. The last study got that level of genetic diversity with only 62 dogs from one country. So does it get more complex once you add in dogs from other countries and compare both show lines? WGSL vs ASL vs working line vs. dogs from other countries



Genoscoper








Updated overview to genetic diversity levels in different dog breeds | MyDogDNA







www.mydogdna.com







http://www.vtgsd.com/publicgsdfiles/german-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf



82 dogs from Australia, multiple breed groups identified with links between each group.









Visualization of Genome Diversity in German Shepherd Dogs


A loss of genetic diversity may lead to increased disease risks in subpopulations of dogs. The canine breed structure has contributed to relatively small effective population size in many breeds and can limit the options for selective breeding strategies ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@berno von der seeweise 

In order to prevent derailing the linebreeding thread here is some discussion about genetic diversity in the breed.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

The problem with genetic diversity in the breed goes back to the very beginning of the breed, starting with the heavy in-breeding done on Pollux v Hanau and Horand v Grafath and continuing to 1933 when Stephanitz died. Hitler's addition of Cherusker v burg Fasenental and Nestor Wiegerfelsen was good but two individuals didn't provide enough diversity, particularly considering that they both carried Roland and thus Horand. Plus, by 1920 you already had the working (herding, guide/service dog/police dog) show dog split, with people complaining that the show dogs were losing their ability to work. Then, with the creation of what became the west german working line, you had an additional split in 1933 starting, with none of the people in each group willing to add individuals from outside their group and perfectly willing to in-breed inside the group. Now you have the German High-line (red and black dogs) in one showline group, American Show line which is very different, and Canadian showlines which are ??? 
Then you have the very highly in-bred British showlines which got that way largely because they have difficulty importing dogs and so they in-breed too. They have problems with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia, in particular, and canine epilepsy as well as all the other genetic disorders and are probably 20 years ahead of the rest of us along the in-breeding trail. Depressing. 

East German dogs had a working/showline split but they didn't have enough dogs in their base to get picky about it. 

Czech dogs had big problems with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia, leading to additions of Land race dogs and even wolves in order to keep their dogs going. There's a well-known Czech kennel here in the US--well, more than one, actually--breeding Czech dogs where they lose pups regularly to JRD. (Anecdotal evidence, which is all we have, because of the state of veterinary science in 1900 to 1920, indicates that JRD comes from Horand v Grafath, so like EPI, which originated in the same place, its endemic in the breed.) One kennel I know routinely mixes their west German dogs with their Czech dogs in an effort to deal with it, but DM and cardiomyeopathy are also a problem for them. 

A lot of people go ballistic when you start talking about 'mixing' types of German Shepherd. This is not helpful, but I have to admit to understanding where they're coming from, at least when it comes to the showlines, but these lines are going to have to find some genetic diversity somewhere or the time is going to come when you pick your poison--which genetic disorder do you dislike the least. Hip Dysplasia is very small potatoes next to some of this stuff. And by the way, hip dysplasia is in no way a simple inheritance. There is a lot more than genetics involved here, almost 50% of hip dysplasia is environmental, whereas some of the other stuff I mentioned is pretty strictly genetic. Well, setting aside epi-genes, which is another tale. 

'Mixing' lines, to be done successfully, has to be done knowledgably and with a good deal of understanding. I know one breeder who is 'mixing' German 'high' lines (the red and black dogs) with West German working lines. I've worked with a number of her dogs over several generations and I find them upsetting. She in-breeds on dogs known to produce EPI and has, to my knowledge, produced three generations of EPI dogs. Her 'high' line dogs don't have the nerve strength to carry the aggression and the over the top prey drive and low bite threshold that the West German Working lines she uses produce, and the resulting dogs are, from my point of view, pretty much disasters. 

Yet, I know two old ladies, each of them with sixty-plus years in the breed, each of whom work their own dogs, have, with a great deal of care, added both West German working line blood and German 'High' line blood to their dogs with enormous success. But both of them are working with a base of dogs carrying a strong foundation of Bernd and Bodo v Lierberg and Axel v d DeininghauserHeide. One of these ladies is almost ninety and the other is past ninety. Neither of them, unfortunately, is breeding German Shepherds any longer. I find this unfortunate because these ladies produced multiple generations of herding dogs, police dogs, and search and rescue dogs as well as public access level service dogs. Of course, they weren't titled. 

With the lack of respect for true working dogs, when only competition 'titles' count, the rewards for continuing to in-breed (and 'line' breeding is just diluted in-breeding) are such that I fear any breeder seriously attempting to diversify their dogs will find themselves solidly in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' group. Today's puppy buyers are taught to demand hip guarantees (which is nonsense!) and 'titles' which pretty much guarantees that their dogs will be in-bred. 

These are pretty much generalities. If you want to talk specific bottlenecks and specific sources of genetic disorders, we can do that too, but this is long enough. Any more questions?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

kayhawk said:


> The problem with genetic diversity in the breed goes back to the very beginning of the breed, starting with the heavy in-breeding done on Pollux v Hanau and Horand v Grafath and continuing to 1933 when Stephanitz died. Hitler's addition of Cherusker v burg Fasenental and Nestor Wiegerfelsen was good but two individuals didn't provide enough diversity, particularly considering that they both carried Roland and thus Horand. Plus, by 1920 you already had the working (herding, guide/service dog/police dog) show dog split, with people complaining that the show dogs were losing their ability to work. Then, with the creation of what became the west german working line, you had an additional split in 1933 starting, with none of the people in each group willing to add individuals from outside their group and perfectly willing to in-breed inside the group. Now you have the German High-line (red and black dogs) in one showline group, American Show line which is very different, and Canadian showlines which are ???
> Then you have the very highly in-bred British showlines which got that way largely because they have difficulty importing dogs and so they in-breed too. They have problems with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia, in particular, and canine epilepsy as well as all the other genetic disorders and are probably 20 years ahead of the rest of us along the in-breeding trail. Depressing.
> 
> East German dogs had a working/showline split but they didn't have enough dogs in their base to get picky about it.
> ...


Did you just take a shot at Canada? Lol.
You forgot the all important pet lines. With both known and unknown pedigrees. The breeding tends to be a mishmash of lines, whatever the breeders could get their hands on. They tend to have pretty steady temperaments and in my experience I've seen an awful lot of both herding instinct and tracking ability as well as a natural affinity for children. Their is a fairly well supported theory that in the BYB/pet lines we may find the genetic diversity to salvage the breed. The pet lines seem to have retained some near to lost qualities and while I do not support indiscriminate breeding I believe that these splits have actually cost us the breed.
I read comments on here all the time about real GSD's and how people cannot handle them when the reality is that the breed from it's earliest was supposed to be a family dog. Good with kids, safe with other animals, etc.

I like seeing titles, I just don't put much stock in some of them. What it does prove is that a dog is trainable and that someone bothered to spend time with it.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

That wasn't a shot at Canada. That was a statement that I don't know much about Canadian showlines. 

As far as what you have to say about 'pet' lines, I agree with you--to a point. If I had my way, I'd be willing to spend the rest of my life educating the pet breeders so they'd know what they were doing. Hopefully. They're less snobbish. 

I started breeding because I couldn't get the kind of dogs I needed from any of the existing 'lines'. Even way back when, the showlines weren't working oriented. I've been 'mixing' lines for almost fifty years to get dogs who work. At actual jobs. I started with herding/search and rescue dogs, then found myself working with guide dogs, and managed, somehow, to get what I wanted/needed. Through the years I've added, judiciously, to old American and old German showlines, (from the 1950s) some old Kirshental, a little West German Working line, a touch of East German (through David Nebelholz to Don v Rolandsteich, with great tracking lines from his mother Ciss) then a little bit of semi-modern High line, more old herding, until now, I'm in my seventh generation from the foundation I was gifted with in the beginning. On the way, I've been blessed with, and used in breeding, 5 generations of LEO dogs, 5 generations of herding dogs, 5 generations of service--guide dogs, wheelchair aid and brace/balance dogs, all at public access level, and 7 generations of search and rescue dogs--well, the 8th generation is out there now doing FEMA work. But none of those dogs were 'titled'. Some of the dogs gave me dual purpose work. 

Abby, a public access level brace/balance dog was also an alternate search and rescue dog with a live find to her name. 

Clare, guide dog mom was also a working cattle dog, and held a knife wielding burglar who broke into my house off so I could call the police and get out of the house safely and out to the barn. 

Callie, whose day job was as a working cattle dog stopped a kidnapping 

Thane, who had multiple live finds as a search and rescue dog also worked cattle and helped to halter-break colts. He stopped a man who kicked in the door to the apartment I was living in and fought the guy down a flight of stairs--even though he wasn't even a year old yet. 

Ysabel, a public access level wheelchair aid dog and herding dog--she once penned llamas for me, and held them in the pen until we could get the big male rounded up and through the gate, even tho she'd never even seen llamas before! (cattle, horses, sheep, goats, pigs, but not llamas) --twice went in under gunfire at the park with the park's field supervisor to find and disarm men shooting into the kids fishing pond area. Ysabel also did therapy work at the oncology ward at the hospital. Carol Veitenheimer of Ca-ji bred her. Carol's in her nineties now and isn't breeding any more. It's a tragedy. 

I could go on. I've literally got a whole book of these stories. Every one of these dogs was an untitled 'pet' dog, by the judgement of the elites of the forum. According to them, Ysabel, who produced three service dogs, two search and rescue dogs, and one working cattle dog in the only litter she had, wasn't fit to be bred, because she didn't have a 'title'. Two of the dogs were dual purpose. Service and herding, search and rescue and therapy. Oh, well. 

But 'mixing' lines has to be done carefully, with knowledge and experience, understanding and DISCIPLINE. I didn't put that in before and that's just as important, if not more so. Fortunate Fields, the first guide dog breeding establishment, said you have to know the work to be able to produce the dogs for it. They really had something there. 

I genuinely don't know what can be done at this point. I don't believe that any competition goals--'titles'-- are the way to go. To get 'titles' you inbreed. It's quick, it's easy, and it's proven to be successful. People are always going to do it to get those 'titles'. It's just too tempting. But take a look at the British German Shepherds--that's going to be our dogs in twenty or thirty years. Breaks my heart. But then, I'm not going to be around then. 

I'm 72 now and I've gone 2 rounds with cancer so far. There are days when I'm glad I'm not going to be around to see it. I'm a third generation German Shepherd dog handler. My grandmother got our first German Shepherd in 1918. Her sister was an Ambulance driver for the Red Cross in France during ww1. Aunt Marguerite brought Bup out of Southern Germany, carted him all the way across France, then across the Atlantic and then literally from sea to shinning sea on the train to get him to my Grandmother in Yakima Washington--and since she went to Seattle first and then back over Snoqualimie with the pup, it was from sea to sea. During his life, Bup saved my mother's life once and my grandmother's life twice. That was kind of it for us. 

I have a friend who is an MD and a PhD who wants a dog for cancer detection. She wants me to find a way to breed one more litter, and my service dog is 11. I will soon need a new pup to train if I am to have another dog. I'm running out of time, and I'm not at all sure I'm up for one more litter. I just, don't know. But the Shopper's perfect--public access level and high end at that, with a great nose and good livestock handling skills. Plus, he's still sound, healthy and working! At 11. So. Hump. 

Best wishes. K


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## FarolKay (Aug 12, 2015)

khawk said:


> The problem with genetic diversity in the breed goes back to the very beginning of the breed, starting with the heavy in-breeding done on Pollux v Hanau and Horand v Grafath and continuing to 1933 when Stephanitz died. Hitler's addition of Cherusker v burg Fasenental and Nestor Wiegerfelsen was good but two individuals didn't provide enough diversity, particularly considering that they both carried Roland and thus Horand. Plus, by 1920 you already had the working (herding, guide/service dog/police dog) show dog split, with people complaining that the show dogs were losing their ability to work. Then, with the creation of what became the west german working line, you had an additional split in 1933 starting, with none of the people in each group willing to add individuals from outside their group and perfectly willing to in-breed inside the group. Now you have the German High-line (red and black dogs) in one showline group, American Show line which is very different, and Canadian showlines which are ???
> Then you have the very highly in-bred British showlines which got that way largely because they have difficulty importing dogs and so they in-breed too. They have problems with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia, in particular, and canine epilepsy as well as all the other genetic disorders and are probably 20 years ahead of the rest of us along the in-breeding trail. Depressing.
> 
> East German dogs had a working/showline split but they didn't have enough dogs in their base to get picky about it.
> ...


KHawk I could sit here for hours and take in all of your valuable knowledge! ( I think it’s been at leadt one hour already). A thread on where GSDs came from ( which I cannot find now) answered questions I had about my GSDs curly and wavy hair on back of neck and along his back. He is now 5 year old GSD, Gunnar. No titles, from a backyard breeder. I was pleased with his conformation, having no sloping back . However, about 6 mos ago, he has developed obvious left hip issue: he scissor walks, placing left back leg in front of the right. He seemed in pain at first but since I started giving him double dose of glucosamine chrondroitin for about 3 months, his initial uncharacteristic panting has stopped.


khawk said:


> The problem with genetic diversity in the breed goes back to the very beginning of the breed, starting with the heavy in-breeding done on Pollux v Hanau and Horand v Grafath and continuing to 1933 when Stephanitz died. Hitler's addition of Cherusker v burg Fasenental and Nestor Wiegerfelsen was good but two individuals didn't provide enough diversity, particularly considering that they both carried Roland and thus Horand. Plus, by 1920 you already had the working (herding, guide/service dog/police dog) show dog split, with people complaining that the show dogs were losing their ability to work. Then, with the creation of what became the west german working line, you had an additional split in 1933 starting, with none of the people in each group willing to add individuals from outside their group and perfectly willing to in-breed inside the group. Now you have the German High-line (red and black dogs) in one showline group, American Show line which is very different, and Canadian showlines which are ???
> Then you have the very highly in-bred British showlines which got that way largely because they have difficulty importing dogs and so they in-breed too. They have problems with Juvenile Renal Dysplasia, in particular, and canine epilepsy as well as all the other genetic disorders and are probably 20 years ahead of the rest of us along the in-breeding trail. Depressing.
> 
> East German dogs had a working/showline split but they didn't have enough dogs in their base to get picky about it.
> ...


Khawk, I have been sitting here for over an hour reading your VERY interesting and informative posts. I have learned so much from you, even what a Ludderite is! lol. I can relate! I joined this forum in ‘15 when I got my GSD puppy ( backyard breeder) and had a zillion questions. He is at least 100 lbs and big boned, huge paws ( maybe some King Shepherd in there). My search on the forum today was about Gunnar’s very wavy coat they has been developing along his back (black saddle, now with a wide strip of blondish hairs -so weird), and that was answered by your long and fascinating history of the origins of the breed. I have been so pleased with his conformation of not having that sloping back, squatting type hind legs; a vet tech commented one time when she saw him, how she likes seeing a GSD “standing up”. However, it didn’t seem to keep him from having obvious left hip problems. He started scissor walking in April ‘ 20, panting uncharacteristically at rest ( in pain I’m sure) and I began doubling up on his glucosamine chrondroitin (Solimo Dog hip and joint tablets, and alternating with Vets Best Aches and Pains especially after exercising/playing) in June. Massage his hips daily, still. He stopped panting pretty soon after the doubling up- back to regular doses last month. He was neutered in May, ‘20 ( I know, too long to wait but we wanted to breed him and get another like him, he is such a good-natured dog; great guard dog. But never found a good female.). He is gaining weight since, so trying to get that off him. He still wants to go on walks (off leash) and chase his ball, eats, pees, poops normally. We also got Bel.Mal/GSD puppy 3 yrs ago and they get along real well: play fight and patrol the property together. Anyway, we want to get another GSD puppy eventually- before Gunnar dies—( I have purposed to always have a GSD since I like the vigilant protectiveness they afford, I’m 75 and live on fenced 2-1/2 acres in rural Northern Nevada). But, now, I am kind of freaked out about all the problems I just learned about here, even worse than the “small potatoes” hip issues. I have recently read elsewhere about the show dog breeders basically ruining the breed. I really don’t want a mixed GSD. I want a big dog like my Gunnar. Willing to travel to get one Suggestions?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

khawk said:


> American Show line which is very different, and Canadian showlines which are ???


Canadian and American show lines are pretty much the same thing. Canadian dogs often compete in ASL shows, and vice versa.

Temperaments are pretty much the same, needless to say, though to get a select title, a Canadian GSD must now have at least one working title, plus pass a temperament test, that includes gun fire, and a suspicious character with a stick yelling and flailing his arms. Carmen was one of the people pushing for that, and it was a hard, hard sell, as many breeders knew their dogs just didn't have the temperament to pass!

Two of my dogs have the TT title. One of them (now deceased) was backyard bred, the other is an ASL/GSL cross. Both dogs worked as my hearing ear dogs. The female picked up the job from my male, waking me up one night to tell me the smoke alarm was beeping, without ever having been trained!

I gave her formal training after that!

I also did schutzhund with her, but was told her nerves weren't strong enough, and although she loved to bite the sleeve, she would go into defense mode too easily. I put a BH on her, and quit after that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

khawk said:


> With the lack of respect for true working dogs, when only competition 'titles' count, the rewards for continuing to in-breed (and 'line' breeding is just diluted in-breeding) are such that I fear any breeder seriously attempting to diversify their dogs will find themselves solidly in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' group. Today's puppy buyers are taught to demand hip guarantees (which is nonsense!) and 'titles' which pretty much guarantees that their dogs will be in-bred.





khawk said:


> I could go on. I've literally got a whole book of these stories. Every one of these dogs was an untitled 'pet' dog, by the judgement of the elites of the forum. According to them, Ysabel, who produced three service dogs, two search and rescue dogs, and one working cattle dog in the only litter she had, wasn't fit to be bred, because she didn't have a 'title'. Two of the dogs were dual purpose. Service and herding, search and rescue and therapy.


Love it. Want more.


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