# Teaching to herd



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

How do you teach a GSD to herd? All I want is for Inga to bring a pony to me when he escapes from his pen. It is a a rather irritating miniature horse stallion less than 3 feet tall. He does chase her away from his feed at times and is not afraid of her at all, not like a sheep or anything. Inga does know Get It and Bring It, but only with objects.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> How do you teach a GSD to herd? All I want is for Inga to bring a pony to me when he escapes from his pen. It is a a rather irritating miniature horse stallion less than 3 feet tall. He does chase her away from his feed at times and is not afraid of her at all, not like a sheep or anything. Inga does know Get It and Bring It, but only with objects.


Maybe some better pony-proofing might help? If he's securely contained then you wouldn't need to involve the dog at all.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A dog with true herding instinct will herd naturally, and only needs to be taught to look to its handler for guidance and direction, and learn the different herding commands. Before my uncle's border collie was a year old, they had to spell the word 'cow' or the dog would be off to the fields to round the cows up, whether it was milking time or not!

What's the problem with the stallion? Is a better containment system the answer? How about gelding him to get rid of his attitude?

A GSD's herding style is to act as a 'living fence', patrolling a well-defined boundary to keep the animals contained. It's quite different from the way collies herd.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> A GSD's herding style is to act as a 'living fence', patrolling a well-defined boundary to keep the animals contained. It's quite different from the way collies herd.



No comment on the stallion situation, but a GSD can most certainly be used for ranch tasks. They can pen and sort and both fetch and drive stock (I have done all three successfully with three different German Shepherds, some being better than others). But a GSD will work in a different style than a border collie - that doesn't mean they can't.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> Maybe some better pony-proofing might help? If he's securely contained then you wouldn't need to involve the dog at all.


I want to train her to herd. She is a ranch dog.

Its 30 degrees with a fresh wind. Just now Dinky ( stallion) made a break for it out the stallion pen gate while I was feeding. I yelled to Inga Get Him! Dinky just stood there. I ran at Dinky, he bolted and Inga's prey drive was activated. Get him! I yelled. Away after him she went. Bring him! I yelled and he just happened turn back against the pasture fence. As it were, she was bringing him. Away past me they went and out into the 50 acre bull pasture. Off down the hill almost out of sight Dinky happened to turn back, not wanting to leave the other stallion. By golly, he ran back into the stallion yard. Down! I yelled and Inga hit the dirt. So far a pretty good. I have no idea how to train for this.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I want to train her to herd. She is a ranch dog.
> 
> Its 30 degrees with a fresh wind. Just now Dinky ( stallion) made a break for it out the stallion pen gate while I was feeding. I yelled to Inga Get Him! Dinky just stood there. I ran at Dinky, he bolted and Inga's prey drive was activated. Get him! I yelled. Away after him she went. Bring him! I yelled and he just happened turn back against the pasture fence. As it were, she was bringing him. Away past me they went and out into the 50 acre bull pasture. Off down the hill almost out of sight Dinky happened to turn back, not wanting to leave the other stallion. By golly, he ran back into the stallion yard. Down! I yelled and Inga hit the dirt. So far a pretty good. I have no idea how to train for this.


If you want to teach her to herd I highly suggest NOT allowing her to run after the stallion like you did above.

Chasing is not herding. At best it will teach her bad habits that will be hard to break and at worst it will ruin her for herding all together. 

Look into herding organizations in your area and sign up for a herding instinct test. If she passes then start working with an instructor. It's going to be a while before she can work your own stock. I am partial to the ASCA. You have the opportunity to work multiple types of stock and the things they train for in trial have real world applications for ranch life. 

Also keep in mind... "Herding" a single stallion is very very different than working multiple heads of stock. I mean "herd" itself implies multiple animals. Not every dog is going to be able to safely work a single ornery stallion. And not all stallions will allow themselves to be worked by a dog. Your plan to have Ingna herd your little guy with a big attitude may end up with a seriously hurt horse or dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That little stud could severely injure her if he kicks back. Get a solid fence for him with an electric wire on top. I don't know of any farmer who would put his dog at risk by herding horses.
The horses I have known were trained and not defiant, even stallions so he may need more training.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Have the dog ignore the pony/ horses is the safest for the dog. A little mini can break a dogs jaw easily at right angle. I don’t think it’s worth it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Thanks, but I am only interested in training to bring one animal. Inga is completely broke from chasing cattle and calves (as well as crittering) with an e collar. Working multiple heads of stock is not an issue here. Cattle come in to the honking of a truck horn in cow/calf country. The two stallions are in a steel pipe corral system or multiple corrals. Its not a fence problem. Its a little bitty wiseguy stallion who pushes gates open problem.


Inga is very wary of both stallions. Every day she likes to come up and eat their feed pellets that they drop and she quickly avoids their moves on her. She avoids coming up close behind them, and I can prevent her biting the animal with the No command and e collar correction if needed for disobeying a command she knows.

There are no herding organizations or instructors here or ASCA. It is not sheep or urban country, it is a vast cattle country and herding herds is not needed because cows come in when called. There was once a bull that had gone wild in the river bottom and some cowboys unloaded horses and some Blue Heelers and brought the bull out of the brush. They all ran off and the bull came back without them, went into the river and swam downstream. This is the only herding I have seen. One good thing is I can set up this situation to bring the tiny stallion in at any time by simply letting him out. How do you teach the send out to bring back a single animal?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Thanks, but I am only interested in training to bring one animal. Inga is completely broke from chasing cattle and calves (as well as crittering) with an e collar. Working multiple heads of stock is not an issue here. Cattle come in to the honking of a truck horn in cow/calf country. The two stallions are in a steel pipe corral system or multiple corrals. Its not a fence problem. Its a little bitty wiseguy stallion who pushes gates open problem.
> 
> 
> Inga is very wary of both stallions. Every day she likes to come up and eat their feed pellets that they drop and she quickly avoids their moves on her. She avoids coming up close behind them, and I can prevent her biting the animal with the No command and e collar correction if needed for disobeying a command she knows.
> ...


If you don't have any herding instructors in your area you are pretty much out of luck. Herding is a lot like bite work in the sense that you should NOT attempt to teach it on your own. 

It is very easy for a green dog to get over excited and very drivey while working stock and being pushed into the wrong prey sequence. You have to be an expert at both reading the dog AND the stock. The safest way to start a dog is going to be on easier stock that have already been habituated to being worked by dogs. 

What you are proposing just isn't safe for your dog or your horse. 

Also working a single animal without a herd is problematic at best. A big part of herding is working with the stock's instinct to flock. If a single animal breaks loose from the herd - putting a bit of pressure on it will get it to regroup instead of fight back or panic. A single herd animal is very different. That is NOT something I would trust a green dog to do. Especially on a stallion. I wouldn't trust most seasoned herding dogs for that task. 

I honestly don't think training Ingna to bring back your stud is the best solution to your problem.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Even stock dog people hesitate to work a dog on horses. You need the right dog. And chasing a stud around is begging for a dead dog.
I have been on ranches and farms most of my life, I have worked with dogs that moved horse herds for us, but never with a stud on the herd. And the skill set required to move horses is much different then other stock. Plus dogs either herd or don't, you can't really "teach" it.
Keep in mind that a stud will kill a predator, they don't run forever.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Two important points....

1. Horses do not respond to dogs the way that sheep or cattle do. Dogs were not selected for generations upon generations for their ability to "herd" horses. These two species are not genetically programmed to work in a stock/stockdog relationship. If you want your horses to interact with your dog, you absolutely need a hands-on mentor who thoroughly understands both species. 

2. You cannot "herd" one animal. One dog, going after one horse, is chasing. 

A fundamental rule of careful stock work is "Bring the many to the one". If you get involved with good trainers, you will likely hear this repeated time and again. 

Bring the _many_ to the _one_. 

You simply cannot "herd" one lone animal.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I want to train her to herd. She is a ranch dog.
> 
> Its 30 degrees with a fresh wind. Just now Dinky ( stallion) made a break for it out the stallion pen gate while I was feeding. I yelled to Inga Get Him! Dinky just stood there. I ran at Dinky, he bolted and Inga's prey drive was activated. Get him! I yelled. Away after him she went. Bring him! I yelled and he just happened turn back against the pasture fence. As it were, she was bringing him. Away past me they went and out into the 50 acre bull pasture. Off down the hill almost out of sight Dinky happened to turn back, not wanting to leave the other stallion. By golly, he ran back into the stallion yard. Down! I yelled and Inga hit the dirt. So far a pretty good. I have no idea how to train for this.


Haven't you used an e collar to punish her for chasing stock? You said her prey drive was activated and you yelled get him. Seems pretty contradictory. 

I had used an ecollar to discourage goat chasing, and later wished my safer dog could help me with my goats. I taught her to follow directions to a target--basically a send out to various points in the pen. The goats would naturally run from her, so if they were making a break into a particular direction, I would send her to that direction, basically an obedience command in the presence of goats, and then would go away from her and so I would regain control of them.


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## Honeybee1999 (Mar 2, 2006)

I think you should focus on training the stallion, not the dog. A gate buster is dangerous and can get someone hurt easily. Lots of ground work and teaching him manners, how to behave near gates, how to behave on lead and off lead, responding to your pressure by moving away, etc. Make sure you close the gate behind you when you go through it (I've been guilty of being lazy about that and learned my lesson while watching a horse's tail streaking away from me out the open gate. Oops.)

And if he does get out, chasing is the worst way to bring him back. Get him used to the sound of a bucket filled with yummy grain. When he gets loose, shake the bucket. Most horses will eventually stop their freedom flight and willingly come back to a bucket of yummies. I never ever run after loose horses. They will always outrun me. They usually don't outrun their stomachs, though.

I would never put my dog at risk of getting kicked or stomped or bit by a horse by encouraging her to chase after it. Even a mini, if pissed off enough, can do major damage to a dog. Stallions, being filled with testosterone, can have a hair trigger for aggression if they feel threatened. Nope, not a good idea at all.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Have you considered hobble training the miniature horse to solve the problem?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I actually do not understand the "problem". It seems like a matter of bad management regarding the little bratty stud. Get a solid fence and a smarter gate and work the stud. You should be able to outsmart a horse brain so you don;t have to risk our dog's safety. I have never , ever allowed my dogs in the same confinement as the horse(s). They went with me riding in the fields but they did their own thing, no herding/chasing, ever.
Have you seen the movie 'Buck'? There is a nasty behaving stud in there and it shows what they are capable of.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga does go riding with me in the forests and fields. She is trained to heel to a ridden horse and free running Dinky goes along too. Inga knows to avoid mama cows with baby calves who might run at her. She has some stock sense, she's a ranch dog. These two stallions are not dangerous killers either. They are not and have never been with mares so there is not that dynamic. They are extremely docile and well trained in their manners. Of course I can lure them with grain in a bucket. Heck, all I have to do is call them and they come running from out of sight beyond the far hill. 

If I can toss some toys for Inga out on the lawn and point to various ones and say get it, bring it, seems like this is not too much to ask to bring a docile pony. I like the cowboysgirl's method of simple send outs to the area of the animals and causing them to move in the desired direction. I could train Inga to calmly move Dinky from corral to corral with her on a long line. I am going to try it. Sure chasing of animals should not be allowed ever. How about just walking after them and moving in the desired direction.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Inga does go riding with me in the forests and fields. She is trained to heel to a ridden horse and free running Dinky goes along too. Inga knows to avoid mama cows with baby calves who might run at her. She has some stock sense, she's a ranch dog. These two stallions are not dangerous killers either. They are extremely docile and well trained in their manners. Of course I can lure them with grain in a bucket. Heck, all I have to do is call them and they come running from out of sight beyond the far hill.
> 
> If I can toss some toys for Inga out on the lawn and point to various ones and say get it, bring it, seems like this is not too much to ask to bring a docile pony. I like the cowboysgirl's method of simple send outs to the area of the animals and causing them to move in the desired direction. I could train Inga to calmly move Dinky from corral to corral with her on a long line. I am going to try it. Sure chasing of animals should not be allowed ever. How about just walking after them and moving in the desired direction.


Just keep in mind I was doing it with Nigerian dwarf goat does, not bucks. Well there were a handful of La Manchas in there too. 

I got the crap beat out of me by a buck in rut one time and it was a memorable experience. My bucks would not go after dogs for no reason so the dogs could walk through their pasture with me, but I would not have sent the dogs to "mock" herd the bucks-- that particular buck would definitely have gone for the dogs under those circumstances and I obviously didn't want them to be hurt. 

I carried a cattle prod after that when i thought that buck might corner me. I'm not a fan of stuff like that but let me tell you, once you've had a raging ball of testosterone pin you in the corner of a stall where you can't get away, repeatedly head ramming you...it puts a whole different spin on things. I could not fight him off, he made it so anything I tried to hit was his head which was basically like hitting a rock and equally effective. One of my animal philosophies is that anything goes if it is used in self defense. I wouldn't go after an animal with a cattle prod but if he comes after me, all bets are off.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I used to have Saanen milk goats and with milk goats you have to have bucks.... Most unpleasant creatures  The herd buck I borrowed never attacked. He had been a prize winning show goat. Its was his young sons. You got to do what you got to do when its self defense.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I used to have Saanen milk goats and with milk goats you have to have bucks.... Most unpleasant creatures  The herd buck I borrowed never attacked. He had been a prize winning show goat. Its was his young sons. You got to do what you got to do when its self defense.


All of these adventures I'm missing, being a city slicker.

I don't think I'd like to subject my dog to an angry goat buck. Or an angry miniature stallion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That particular buck, I really loved. All the others I could take or leave but I had raised that one since he was a baby and I had a real connection with him. I never had another buck go after me like that, even bottle babies that lacked proper life lessons from another goat. I do think there were extenuating circumstances, there was some evidence that some workmen we had on the farm that day had antagonized him and when I first encountered him that day he was like I have never seen before, I don't know how to describe it. I called my husband and said I think we are going to have to shoot him, he has gone mad. I wondered if goats got rabies. It was really bizarre. 

Interestingly though, his sons were always more prone to try to headbutt a person than any other bucklings I had. I always think of that when people talk about genetic tendencies. 

He never was aggressive like that with me again, although he threatened me a few times and once I put the fear of god into him for threatening me. But it was a weak rear up threat, Nothing like how he was that day...he just came around the corner frothing at the mouth (and not how bucks usually blubber), if he were a cartoon his eyes would have been blood red. Literally my first thought was oh my god, he has rabies.

All things considered, we got to a point where he sired my second c section with a whopper of a singleton, something else he was known for, and I sent him to the vet to be castrated. That solved all of our problems. 

But I had maybe a dozen other bucks besides him and none were ever aggressive, although one would sneak up and blubber at you and you'd feel his tongue on your bare leg and it was almost equally horrifying LOL


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> .....although one would sneak up and blubber at you and you'd feel his tongue on your bare leg and it was almost equally horrifying LOL


LOL :spittingcoffee:

I had one or two great males, and then others who were.... not awesome.

One of my favorites used to ride around on our pig's back like a goat-cowboy. 

The last buck I had (he was sold and is now a pet lawnmower/weed-eater) was a royal pain in the neck. I had to have a dog with me when I went into the goat yard to keep him off of me at *certain* times of the year. Not fun.... I don't regret selling him. Sometimes I miss breeding goats, I think eventually I'll get back into it, but I sure am glad I'm not dealing with any pregnant does in this atrocious weather right now.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I miss my goats so bad...but up here there isn't the pet market for the wethers and I don't have the heart to butcher them. Where I was in FL mini farm animals were very popular pets and had good lives. 

I miss that sweet fresh milk too...but yeah, livestock in subzero temps sucks


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I had a goat bite my ass today. Or try to. He (or she, I forget) almost got my phone out of my pocket as well. My trainer was all "yeah, he is a butt biter."


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I thought about Inga bringing the pony today. I am not trying to get her titled in herding or anything. This is play. I worked her on the Get it and Bring it command pointing to various toys that I has tossed in all over the hill. Some of Inga's 30 commands are just tricks. Like jump (through hoops) or cross ( a 10' 2x4 ) or drag, (she does not drag anything, she allows herself to be dragged all over the place while lying on her side and biting on a towel). 

Have you ever seen the Lassie shows? Lassie unties cows and horses and holding the rope in her mouth, leads them out of the barn. So I thought of a way that is work/play for Inga. Tomorrow I am going to have Dinky the little stallion drag a long rope from his halter which is tied to Inga's favorite toy. Once he gets used to this, and he will quickly get used to it, I will take Inga into the corral in on a long line, toss the toy and say get it and bring it. She will do anything for that oinking rubber pig, her favorite toy. Gradually shorten the rope. Soon, she will be leading Dinky to me, not chasing him.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

mspiker03 said:


> I had a goat bite my ass today. Or try to. He (or she, I forget) almost got my phone out of my pocket as well. My trainer was all "yeah, he is a butt biter."


Fortunately goats have no upper teeth.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Fortunately goats have no upper teeth.


This is simply incorrect. Goats have upper and lower molars, and the lower incisors are matched with a bite plate above. 

They absolutely have teeth in their upper jaw.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I thought about Inga bringing the pony today. I am not trying to get her titled in herding or anything. This is play. I worked her on the Get it and Bring it command pointing to various toys that I has tossed in all over the hill. Some of Inga's 30 commands are just tricks. Like jump (through hoops) or cross ( a 10' 2x4 ) or drag, (she does not drag anything, she allows herself to be dragged all over the place while lying on her side and biting on a towel).
> 
> Have you ever seen the Lassie shows? Lassie unties cows and horses and holding the rope in her mouth, leads them out of the barn. So I thought of a way that is work/play for Inga. Tomorrow I am going to have Dinky the little stallion drag a long rope from his halter which is tied to Inga's favorite toy. Once he gets used to this, and he will quickly get used to it, I will take Inga into the corral in on a long line, toss the toy and say get it and bring it. She will do anything for that oinking rubber pig, her favorite toy. Gradually shorten the rope. Soon, she will be leading Dinky to me, not chasing him.


Hope that stallion doesn't feel threatened with an exuberant dog running at it. 
You're going to get your dog hurt.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I thought about Inga bringing the pony today. I am not trying to get her titled in herding or anything. This is play. I worked her on the Get it and Bring it command pointing to various toys that I has tossed in all over the hill. Some of Inga's 30 commands are just tricks. Like jump (through hoops) or cross ( a 10' 2x4 ) or drag, (she does not drag anything, she allows herself to be dragged all over the place while lying on her side and biting on a towel).
> 
> Have you ever seen the Lassie shows? Lassie unties cows and horses and holding the rope in her mouth, leads them out of the barn. So I thought of a way that is work/play for Inga. Tomorrow I am going to have Dinky the little stallion drag a long rope from his halter which is tied to Inga's favorite toy. Once he gets used to this, and he will quickly get used to it, I will take Inga into the corral in on a long line, toss the toy and say get it and bring it. She will do anything for that oinking rubber pig, her favorite toy. Gradually shorten the rope. Soon, she will be leading Dinky to me, not chasing him.


Okay but those are tricks. I don't think any ranch dog actually works that way. I taught that to my dog as a trick too, she will walk another dog by holding the leash in her mouth. It counted for one of her trick dog titles. 

When you see dogs leading horses by the leadrope it is the same thing, it is a trick. It is a very docile horse following a dog trained to hold the rope. I don't think this has a legitimate work application, but if anybody knows different please correct me


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I thought about Inga bringing the pony today. I am not trying to get her titled in herding or anything. This is play. I worked her on the Get it and Bring it command pointing to various toys that I has tossed in all over the hill. Some of Inga's 30 commands are just tricks. Like jump (through hoops) or cross ( a 10' 2x4 ) or drag, (she does not drag anything, she allows herself to be dragged all over the place while lying on her side and biting on a towel).
> 
> Have you ever seen the Lassie shows? Lassie unties cows and horses and holding the rope in her mouth, leads them out of the barn. So I thought of a way that is work/play for Inga. Tomorrow I am going to have Dinky the little stallion drag a long rope from his halter which is tied to Inga's favorite toy. Once he gets used to this, and he will quickly get used to it, I will take Inga into the corral in on a long line, toss the toy and say get it and bring it. She will do anything for that oinking rubber pig, her favorite toy. Gradually shorten the rope. Soon, she will be leading Dinky to me, not chasing him.


It is a trick kind of pointless though no? Since you probably don't, or shouldn't keep a halter on him at all times and a line attached to that halter. I mean it's your choice is you want to train her to do it or not, but it's probably not going to be actually useful. Just a party trick you could show people. Still a much better than trying to teach her to herd him.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> This is simply incorrect. Goats have upper and lower molars, and the lower incisors are matched with a bite plate above.
> 
> They absolutely have teeth in their upper jaw.


They have upper molars but no upper incisors to bite a person with.

Dental Anatomy of Ruminants


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Hope that stallion doesn't feel threatened with an exuberant dog running at it.
> You're going to get your dog hurt.


 I said I will bring Inga in on a long line. No chasing at all will be allowed. Please reread my plan.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay but those are tricks. I don't think any ranch dog actually works that way. I taught that to my dog as a trick too, she will walk another dog by holding the leash in her mouth. It counted for one of her trick dog titles.
> 
> When you see dogs leading horses by the leadrope it is the same thing, it is a trick. It is a very docile horse following a dog trained to hold the rope. I don't think this has a legitimate work application, but if anybody knows different please correct me


 Of course this will be a dog trick, not actual herding. If Mr Weatherwax could train Lassie to do it, I can train Inga to do it. How many and what kind of tricks must a dog perform to get titled?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Kazel said:


> It is a trick kind of pointless though no? Since you probably don't, or shouldn't keep a halter on him at all times and a line attached to that halter. I mean it's your choice is you want to train her to do it or not, but it's probably not going to be actually useful. Just a party trick you could show people. Still a much better than trying to teach her to herd him.


I'm not going to leave the rope and halter on at all times. If I can get Inga to bring him on a rope I would gradually fade out the rope and have her bring him in at a walk. Of course, rewarding Dinky with carrots.

How about this? If I can teach Inga this I will post pictures


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

depends on which org.

Google: Do More With Your Dog. 

AKC has trick dog titles too. CGC evaluators can witness your tricks for submission.

My dogs have done both. It's fun. I was able to recycle some of my girl's service tasks into tricks and it made her so happy, she felt like she was doing her job again.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

What service tricks did you recycle? Is this like a dog sport with an audience?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well at one point she had a task where she would open a cabinet or the refrigerator and bring me something from inside. There was one on the list that was to open a mailbox and bring the mail. Very similar, she picked it up in a snap and felt like she was training for work again.

Opening and closing doors was one, which she knew how to do with a tug.

She would seek and retrieve a few different items by name, that was usable. I don't remember them all right this second. But you get the idea.

I used things she knew how to do to teach her the bring me the tissue and then throw it away for me in a day.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Wow! How did you teach bringing stuff from the refigerator? I have seen Lassie bring the mail on the Lassie show. How did you teach that?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Fortunately goats have no upper teeth.


So what, they're fitted with dentures?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Of course this will be a dog trick, not actual herding. If Mr Weatherwax could train Lassie to do it, I can train Inga to do it. How many and what kind of tricks must a dog perform to get titled?


My point about it being a trick is that in your case, it isn't useful for real life. 

I muddied the water bringing up service dog tasks as "tricks" because when she was doing them for work they weren't "tricks" at all, but extremely important tasks that I depended on.

When I mock sneeze and say get me a tissue, she pulls one from the dispenser and hands it to me, then I mock wipe my nose and say "throw it away" and she drops it in the waste pail, that's a trick... a trained behavior chain meant to make it look like something else is happening that isn't--typically higher functioning of the dog I'd say.

Like lassie runs into the burning barn, unties a horse and leads it to safety. That's a trick. No dog probably has the sense to do that--nor would a truly panicked or out of control horse be led by a dog. But a docile horse in a fake fire that's basically part of the trained "trick" can make it look like that.

I don't think there is any real working application for a trick like that, is my point. But I feel like I am not sure if this is making sense.

I trained her to do all of her tasks as behavior chains, mostly back chaining, either with a clicker and food along the way or a tug reward at the end of some of them depending--sometimes a little of both. She LOVES to work...loves to figure stuff out, so she excelled at this.

I think her favorite "trick" from her trick training was pick pocket, where she got to steal stuff out of people's pockets and bring it back to me for a reward. LOL Whatever makes an old dog happy ( the person being robbed was a volunteer helping me, not some random person, FYI)


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

In real life if I can get Inga to walk out there, get beyond the Dinky pony and walking, push him walking back to me it would be a useful trick. So far this morning we have been working on Get It and Bring It with toys out in the horse lot. Proofing it in a different location. No horses are in there. This afternoon I will get Dinky used to dragging a 25' line with a rubber pig attached.

Please explain this 'backchaining' to teach complicated behaviors. She sounds like quite a dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I said I will bring Inga in on a long line. No chasing at all will be allowed. Please reread my plan.


Ok. You know best........
Hope the horse doesn't take off when inga has the horses line in her mouth.....or the horse come back on her.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

https://clickertraining.com/back-chaining-retrieve

For the record I also think that this could very well be a dangerous endeavor for your dog and I was not intending to encourage it by talking about tricks and how to train them...more trying to say why I didn't think a trick would be functional or safe in a true working situation.

Stallions sometimes strike more with forelegs than other horses do. That could kill your dog on the front end, too.

Cloudpump had a good thought with the pony taking off with her holding the line--I could imagine my girl's first instinct if the rope tugged hard in her mouth would be to hold on tighter.

I knew a woman once who had her lead rope in a loop around her hand. The horse bolted and she was dragged. She lost her thumb, shattered her pelvis, and had her jeans torn from her body. A woman who was at the time probably the age I am now using a walker for months while she learned to walk again.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Thank you for that backchaining link- most useful. 

Dinky is used to Inga, he has been around her for the last 2 years ever since she was a puppy. He is used to her running along next to him while on rides in the pastures- for years. Twice a day she is out there while he eats right under his nose. Out of the hundreds of opportunities he's had to kick or bite or strike with his front legs he has never done this. If he moves faster than Inga while she holds rubber pig she will let go. I appreciate your concern. If I see anything going sideways with this I will stop the training immediately.


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