# E collars??



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I was thinking about getting and E collar for Dodger to help aid in long distance recall, like camping. my questions is..is where can a get a good one? and how do I use it properly? obviously I'd try to find a trainer to teach me how to use it, but how can I start while I find a trainer?


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

check out www.loucastle.com, tons of great info on e-collar training


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

cool thanks!!!


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i've been considering the same thing. good luck Steph. Riley's recall seems to have disappeared as he thinks sniffing his own pee spot is more important. Gotta work with him on it.... dunno what changed.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

thanks I'm going to try a whistle in the mean time, I need something to break his concentration so he'll come. once his concentration is broke about 90% of the time he'll come. I think the e collar will help me get it to 100% since there's no where I can practice a true off leash come except the desert.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i have i believe its a 20ft training lead i use because of leash laws and they're not 100% recall reliable but i've considered the whistle too.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I use that too, I have a 30 ft one, but out here in the desert it's annoying to have a cable tied to the trailer be aide everyone trips over it and he gets tangled in it, plus if he were to get loose I want to make sure he'll come back, right now i tricked him and only have his regular leash on and he's stayed right by me, but I still don't trust him to not come back I he wanders to far away smelling.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i used to trust Riley no problems and i can still walk him offleash if i want to but his recall isnt the best lately and its not for a lack of working with him. He's ALWAYS had great recall so best i can figure is he is being a butthead about it because he wants to be. Shasta on the other hand.... we're working on it. She comes when she's called but bounds right past me so we're working on that one big time!


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Why an e-collar? Have you exhausted all other means such as practicing the recall at the end of a 30 ft? Broke the recall down in small steps, rewarding along the way? Building the distance up until it's rock solid at any distance/distraction? 

My opinion is to exhaust all possibilities before going to an e-collar. If your dog doesn't have a true understanding of what you are asking then adding a correction won't work.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

valreegrl said:


> Why an e-collar? Have you exhausted all other means such as practicing the recall at the end of a 30 ft? Broke the recall down in small steps, rewarding along the way? Building the distance up until it's rock solid at any distance/distraction?
> 
> My opinion is to exhaust all possibilities before going to an e-collar. If your dog doesn't have a true understanding of what you are asking then adding a correction won't work.


yes I have, at home he comes just fine off leash when I can have him off leash which is very rare because, as I stated before i really have no where I can practice a true off leash (no leash attached to him) and because wenhave leash laws, but when we're camping there's way too many smells and little critters that he'd much rather chase then come to me, plus there's people on dirt bikes and quads, obviously I won't use it forever, but to help teach him that when he's off leash he still needs to come. He knows when he's not on a leash and when he is. I let him drag his 6 ft leash around and he came just fine with it one. I really so t want him to continue dragging it because it can be a hazard especially out I. the desert.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I should add that when he's on my 30 ft leash he comes about 90-99% of the time. when he's off leash it's a whole 'nother story because I can't correct him for not listening. it's just not good to have him completely off leash around my house because we do have outside cats that he would live to go chase and kill ( another reason why I would like the e collar). on e he sees a cat nothing and I mean nothing works to get his attention away not toys, clicker training, really high value treats, watch me ect nothing and yes I do work on this every day with the cats at petsmart, but it's not the sitting still cat its the walking/running cat that triggers his prey drive. most of the time I can tell him leave it and he will as long as it's not running.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

DCluver33 said:


> yes I have, at home he comes just fine off leash when I can have him off leash which is very rare because, as I stated before i really have no where I can practice a true off leash (no leash attached to him) and because wenhave leash laws, but when we're camping there's way too many smells and little critters that he'd much rather chase then come to me, plus there's people on dirt bikes and quads, obviously I won't use it forever, but to help teach him that when he's off leash he still needs to come. He knows when he's not on a leash and when he is. I let him drag his 6 ft leash around and he came just fine with it one. I really so t want him to continue dragging it because it can be a hazard especially out I. the desert.


Different distractions when camping 
I would work him on the 30 ft while camping/in the desert if you can. Get him to the point that he has a reliable recall under those conditions then start giving him more space.
Jumping to an e-collar even with guidance does have the possibility of negative ramifications, especially for a dog who was never exposed to negative reinforcement. 
As an example for you to correlate with: You live in the US. Understand how our society functions, the language, etc. Now I drop you off in China and tell you to stay with me in Chinese. You kind of understand my body language and motions but not my language. Now you move ahead of me and I suddenly zap you. So you stay behind me and begin to lag so I zap you again. Now imagine the same situation but instead I hand you a translation manual. 
See where I am going with this  
That is how camping/the desert is to your dog


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

DCluver33 said:


> I should add that when he's on my 30 ft leash he comes about 90-99% of the time. when he's off leash it's a whole 'nother story because I can't correct him for not listening. it's just not good to have him completely off leash around my house because we do have outside cats that he would live to go chase and kill ( another reason why I would like the e collar). on e he sees a cat nothing and I mean nothing works to get his attention away not toys, clicker training, really high value treats, watch me ect nothing and yes I do work on this every day with the cats at petsmart, but it's not the sitting still cat its the walking/running cat that triggers his prey drive. most of the time I can tell him leave it and he will as long as it's not running.


You need his attention at the end of the 30ft 100% of the time before moving forward. Figure out what really and truly gets him motivated and utilize it. But he only gets that when working on recalls. 
As for the cats, its the same thing. (although hard to set up unless you want to torture a few cats!) Whatever highly motivates him to stay "with you".


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

valreegrl said:


> Different distractions when camping
> I would work him on the 30 ft while camping/in the desert if you can. Get him to the point that he has a reliable recall under those conditions then start giving him more space.
> Jumping to an e-collar even with guidance does have the possibility of negative ramifications, especially for a dog who was never exposed to negative reinforcement.
> As an example for you to correlate with: You live in the US. Understand how our society functions, the language, etc. Now I drop you off in China and tell you to stay with me in Chinese. You kind of understand my body language and motions but not my language. Now you move ahead of me and I suddenly zap you. So you stay behind me and begin to lag so I zap you again. Now imagine the same situation but instead I hand you a translation manual.
> ...


which is what I did before letting him drag his 6 ft leash to make sure ok if I let him drag his leash will he come. the desert was all new to him never been there before in his entire life and he did really really well, better than I expected him to, for his first time camping ever, the next challenge will the woods where there's tons of things I know he going to want to try to chase. it also doesn't help in teaching a good solid recall in the desert id we don't go enough for him to really understand just because you're here with a bunch a sand doesn't mean you can't listen.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

valreegrl said:


> You need his attention at the end of the 30ft 100% of the time before moving forward. Figure out what really and truly gets him motivated and utilize it. But he only gets that when working on recalls.
> As for the cats, its the same thing. (although hard to set up unless you want to torture a few cats!) Whatever highly motivates him to stay "with you".


so far nothing I've tried helps him with the cats, granted he's a lot better now then he was because he's figured out he can't get away with things with me. I need cats that aren't in a cage and when I walk him or run with him I don't see the cats around my complex real often, or often enough to really work on it.


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

E-collars are not "last resorts". They are a useful tool. My dog knows when he's on a lead and not, he's not stupid. And dog's only become "collar smart" when the trainer has made mistakes.

And used properly, there's no "zapping". its called low level stimulation.

To the original poster, please read thru the site I posted thoroughly, and come to your own conclusions about e-collar training. Many people who have negative opinions about e-collar training have little or no experience with the tool or correct use of it.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

ShatteringGlass said:


> E-collars are not "last resorts". They are a useful tool. My dog knows when he's on a lead and not, he's not stupid. And dog's only become "collar smart" when the trainer has made mistakes.
> 
> And used properly, there's no "zapping". its called low level stimulation.
> 
> To the original poster, please read thru the site I posted thoroughly, and come to your own conclusions about e-collar training. Many people who have negative opinions about e-collar training have little or no experience with the tool or correct use of it.


I will when i get home I can't right now on my phone. I think it will help aid when he's 60 ft from me and "pretends" not to hear me. I want to do a ton of research before I make my final decision. my friend suggested I try an e collar especially since in the desert he can't always hear me when the quads are in because it's loud. 

that's exactly how Dodger is he knows when he's on a leash and when he's not, trust me I've tested that one out. I just need something to get his attention, once I have his attention he'll come. that's why I said I'll try a whistle in the mean time to see if that works before I try an e collar. I just wanted information on them and how to properly use them before I make my final decision. the last thing I want to do is screw him up.


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

I've been practicing with my dog on her recall as well. We've been doing pretty good when she is on her leash. But once I take her leash off...I understand exactly what you are saying, Steph. Its "I'll come back to you if there isn't anything more interesting out here." LOL I've done a little research on e-collars and I'm still undecided if I want to go that route. 

My last GSD understood her recall 100% of the time...all the time so with Uschi, I sometimes get alittle frustrated when she doesn't come back when I call her. I do believe she has selective hearing.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

It sounds like you've done your homework. Adding an e-collar to a training program can be an excellent way to enforce commands at a distance, and with most dogs it doesn't have to be done at a high level of stim. Proper e-collar training is not abusive. Think of it as a long-distance prong collar. The levels on a modern e-collar start out so low that you barely feel it on your own skin. I check the level on my arm or hand EVERY TIME before putting the collar on a dog. 

Not all dogs need this type of training, but for many it's an excellent solution. I have one dog here who can be offlead anywhere, she has never needed this kind of training. My other dog, it saved his life and has given him a level of freedom that I never thought he would enjoy. My youngest, she'll be taught what the collar is about so we can safely enjoy offlead walks in the woods. 

Abuse would be slapping a collar on an untrained dog and zapping away at a high level, thinking the collar will teach the dog. Proper collar use involves starting out with the dog on a long line or leash and starting with commands the dog knows well, using the lowest level of stim that your dog notices *in a given situation*. Use your line to gently assist your dog in being correct. This way you can teach the dog that complying with the command stops the stim. Reward the dog as you normally would.....rewards and e-collars are NOT mutually exclusive!

The reason I say "in a given situation" is that the level will change given the level of distraction or arousal. A dog that responds to a level 20 (Dogtra goes from 0 to 127) in a quiet back yard will likely be totally oblivious to that level if the neighbor's dog comes out and starts fence running right next to him. Like anything else in dog training, there are few hard and fast rules. Good trainers are observant and flexible.

If you do buy an e-collar, don't buy one of those random brands from PetSomething. Dogtra and Tritronics cost a bit more but are well worth the additional cost. I have a Dogtra 1900NCP, it transmits over a long distance and has a digital display so it can be easily read in the dark, plus both transmitter and receiver are waterproof. Last time I checked Cabelas had decent prices and free shipping on Dogtra collars. 

The BEST thing would be to find a good trainer who is well versed in e-collar training. I'm not sure who is in Southern Ca, I'm on the east coast. Martin Deeley is an excellent trainer, I have trained with him and he's extremely gentle with the dogs. He has a DVD out, you can find it on Home Martin Deeley . He also has a list of trainers who have been thru his course, that's on International school for dog trainers courses,dog trainer schools, dog training school, school for dog training,e collar training . 

OK gotta run, work is calling.....


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> It sounds like you've done your homework. Adding an e-collar to a training program can be an excellent way to enforce commands at a distance, and with most dogs it doesn't have to be done at a high level of stim. Proper e-collar training is not abusive. Think of it as a long-distance prong collar. The levels on a modern e-collar start out so low that you barely feel it on your own skin. I check the level on my arm or hand EVERY TIME before putting the collar on a dog.
> 
> Not all dogs need this type of training, but for many it's an excellent solution. I have one dog here who can be offlead anywhere, she has never needed this kind of training. My other dog, it saved his life and has given him a level of freedom that I never thought he would enjoy. My youngest, she'll be taught what the collar is about so we can safely enjoy offlead walks in the woods.
> 
> ...


Very good post! Thanks!


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Pattycakes said:


> I've been practicing with my dog on her recall as well. We've been doing pretty good when she is on her leash. But once I take her leash off...I understand exactly what you are saying, Steph. Its "I'll come back to you if there isn't anything more interesting out here." LOL I've done a little research on e-collars and I'm still undecided if I want to go that route.
> 
> My last GSD understood her recall 100% of the time...all the time so with Uschi, I sometimes get alittle frustrated when she doesn't come back when I call her. I do believe she has selective hearing.


that's exactly what he does!! he'll start smelling, I'll call him, his ears flicker towards me so I know he heard me, but he'll ignore me then when he's done smelling he'll come to me. at home I'm not so stressed about it, but out in the desert and in the woods that's a a very dangerous thing if I call him and he's not attached to a leash I want him to come immediately. especially if he were to get loose then I'd be screwed he'll be thinking freedom!!!! then I'd lose my dog because I'm not going to chase him I'd have to wait for him to come back and I want him to get if I say come you better stop what you're doing and come. he's a very smart dog


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

Thats what is funny...they are very smart dogs and they know exactly how much they can get away with us. 

I have another ob class coming up and I will see how it goes this time. If her recall doesn't get better..than I am seriously going to look into an e-collar and find someone who can train us.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Pattycakes said:


> Thats what is funny...they are very smart dogs and they know exactly how much they can get away with us.
> 
> I have another ob class coming up and I will see how it goes this time. If her recall doesn't get better..than I am seriously going to look into an e-collar and find someone who can train us.


I was going to sign him up for the next ob class, but i realized that I was going to be gone for a class for my birthday and decided I'm going to wait, I want to make sure I'm there for every class.


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

Yup....I missed the last ob class since I was going to miss some of it as well. It seems to work out better for me when they have classes during the week in the evenings than during the weekend.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Pattycakes said:


> Yup....I missed the last ob class since I was going to miss some of it as well. It seems to work out better for me when they have classes during the week in the evenings than during the weekend.


this class is only on Saturday's and it's the next one up after beginning ob. I'm going to Vegas for my birthday and the class starts the week before that so I decided to wait but I'll probably have to wait until I finish grooming school since it goes from Tuesday-saturday


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

OOOhhh Vegas is one of my favorite places! Hope you have a great time!  

Darn ob classes...they need to be more in tune with our schedules! LOL


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

lol I know right!!

I will have a blast, I'm going with my mom to see David Cook perform there on my birthday hehe. i'm way beyond excited


----------



## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

That will be a great concert!


----------



## trapper66 (Nov 16, 2010)

The e collar works well if properly introduced. I have the dogtra one and worked with my dogs with my trainer.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Pattycakes said:


> That will be a great concert!


yes it will!!


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

trapper66 said:


> The e collar works well if properly introduced. I have the dogtra one and worked with my dogs with my trainer.


ok thanks


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DCluver33 said:


> ok thanks


Lou Castle on here would be happy to explain e collars to you I'm sure


----------



## Jason B (Mar 15, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> i have i believe its a 20ft training lead i use because of leash laws and they're not 100% recall reliable but i've considered the whistle too.


All of my dogs are trained to whistle sit and whistle here. One tweet of the whistle for sit and three tweets for here. I train labs for waterfowl and hunt test and this is pretty much the standard in the lab world. 

My new boy Radar will be trained the same way all though he is not a duck dawg. 

It is really easy to train them, especially if they already know those two verbal commands. I use a 50' lead and while at heel, give the verbal command followed by a gentle pop of the lead and one tweet. Reps are about 10 minutes. After around the third day, you can drop the verbal command and just use the whistle. If the dog seems confused, go back and use the verbal command for another day or two. 

For here, I will set the dog out at 40' or so. Use the verbal here, pop the collar and give 3 tweets. For some reason, here is always learned quicker. 

All of this is then reinforced with an e-collar once the commands are known. Sit whistle is very important when you have a dog running away from you (towards a cat, squirrel, rabbit.....) or the dog is simply too far to hear your verbal command. Once they are sitting, here is an easy request for them to conform to. I can whistle sit my boy Scout all the way out to a couple hundred yards.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

The whistle works by snapping them out of the instinct part of their brain and back into the working part. 10 reps is good advise as well, as well as going back to basics if the dog seems confused. 
I also use here, not come. It seems to roll off the tongue better and has a sharper tone.


----------



## Jason B (Mar 15, 2011)

valreegrl said:


> The whistle works by snapping them out of the instinct part of their brain and back into the working part. 10 reps is good advise as well, as well as going back to basics if the dog seems confused.
> I also use here, not come. It seems to roll off the tongue better and has a sharper tone.


Correct. It also works because my dogs are taught that sit definetly means sit. I steady the dog 100% before the dog ever hears or learns here. At 15 weeks old I can whistle sit them and walk around a 100' circle with no lead and usually they will not move. If they do, I walk them back to the spot they were originally sitting in and start over. By week 16 they are real solid. Then we work on here.


----------



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Some people will not like hearing this but:

Steph, NOTHING works to develop a solid recall like an e-collar. I'm talking about ROCK SOLID, even in the face of high distraction like a chasing a deer, or whatever. But, like someone mentioned above, you MUST introduce it properly, and more importantly, you MUST have the right kind of e-collar. Why? Because not all e-collars are created equal, and believe it or not, e-collars really shouldn't be used to shock a dog, like most people think. If you get the science of using the RIGHT COLLAR down pat, your training time will literally be cut by 70%. I'm not talking about taking shortcuts, either. You still teach commands you're doing now, but when you PROPERLY incorporate e-collar training into your routine, you can have a solid off-leash dog in a matter of weeks in most cases, and even days in some.

Steph, if you can't find a reputable trainer, with references, down in your neck of the woods who is experienced in "shock-less" e-collar training, let me know via a PM. I can teach you everything you need to know in 3 sessions. Your dog will come every single time, and with its head up, not hanging down like a beaten dog! And, I can even show you how to ensure you won't need to use the collar forever. In fact, if you're serious let me know, and I'll show you how a 13 mos. old performs without any collar or leash after e-collar training. 

FWIW, the majority of my clients who opted for e-collars are women who previously said they would NEVER consider an e-collar for their dogs. It might we worth your while to consider coming upstate on a vacation for a week. 

Know that I am NOT on this forum to try to get new business. I have plenty of it. But, when I hear serious people considering e-collars for practical purposes, I feel I need to let them know of a resource that may be valuable to them, because I happen to know how to train with e-collars without "zapping" or "tasing" dogs. And, if I offer up myself as a resource, I know I at least made the effort to help prevent dogs from being needlessly shocked. [Is there an icon for waving a patriotic flag?]


----------



## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

Looks like good advice on ecollar given already. I use a Tritronic and it works well. Only thing to add is that it is a good idea to put the ecollar on whenever you take your dog out so they do not become "ecollar" aware. This doesn't mean that you have to use it, but that way the dog will think they always have it on instead of figuring out that heh, no ecollar, I can take off now and not listen. In a controlled situation you can still test recall with it off once in a while to see what results you get.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

gmcenroe said:


> Looks like good advice on ecollar given already. I use a Tritronic and it works well. Only thing to add is that it is a good idea to put the ecollar on *whenever you take your dog out so they do not become "ecollar" aware.* This doesn't mean that you have to use it, but that way the dog will think they always have it on instead of figuring out that heh, no ecollar, I can take off now and not listen. In a controlled situation you can still test recall with it off once in a while to see what results you get.


Most of my friends who get the e-collar find the training doesn't work purely cause they FAIL to do it properly and be aware of the part I put in bold above. 

I just leave the collars on my dogs, only turning them on to activate them when we go outdoors.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Jumping to an e-collar even with guidance does have the possibility of negative ramifications, especially for a dog who was never exposed to negative reinforcement.




I don't think there's a dog who's been weaned who has not been _"exposed to negative reinforcement."_ Can you please tell us what you're referring to when you mention _"negative ramifications?"_ 




valreegrl said:


> As an example for you to correlate with: You live in the US. Understand how our society functions, the language, etc. Now I drop you off in China and tell you to stay with me in Chinese. You kind of understand my body language and motions but not my language. Now you move ahead of me and I suddenly zap you. So you stay behind me and begin to lag so I zap you again. Now imagine the same situation but instead I hand you a translation manual.


 
_"Zapping"_ is merely giving corrections and usually it means, "at a fairly high level of stim." I don't do that and suggest that no one else does either. If you use my methods the dog quickly learns what it means when the stim starts and what it means when it stops. And it's done at the level of stim that the dog first feels. 

Many thanks to those who have previously mentioned my name and website.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DCluver33 said:


> so far nothing I've tried helps him with the cats, granted he's a lot better now then he was because he's figured out he can't get away with things with me. I need cats that aren't in a cage and when I walk him or run with him I don't see the cats around my complex real often, or often enough to really work on it.


 
This protocol has helped many people. CLICK HERE


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I’m in So Cal, in the Los Angeles area.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

LouCastle said:


> I’m in So Cal, in the Los Angeles area.


hey you're like two hours at the most away from me!! Cool.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

MrLeadFoot said:


> Some people will not like hearing this but:
> 
> Steph, NOTHING works to develop a solid recall like an e-collar. I'm talking about ROCK SOLID, even in the face of high distraction like a chasing a deer, or whatever. But, like someone mentioned above, you MUST introduce it properly, and more importantly, you MUST have the right kind of e-collar. Why? Because not all e-collars are created equal, and believe it or not, e-collars really shouldn't be used to shock a dog, like most people think. If you get the science of using the RIGHT COLLAR down pat, your training time will literally be cut by 70%. I'm not talking about taking shortcuts, either. You still teach commands you're doing now, but when you PROPERLY incorporate e-collar training into your routine, you can have a solid off-leash dog in a matter of weeks in most cases, and even days in some.
> 
> ...


ok thanks. the only place I can really see him completely off leash is at the Desert and I really don't want to just let him off and "hope he comes back" or as my mom put it "he'll come back eventually" uh no I want him back when I call him back not five minutes later...now. there's things out there that can be dangerous, like people on quads, who don't look for loose dogs, I don't want my dog run over and hurt or worse, killed because I failed to teach him a solid recall should he get off the leash, or I let him off. I have to save my money for a trainer and a good e collar, because 1 I want a good one that I know will work. I don't want to find out in the middle of the desert that oops it didn't work. and 2 learn how to use it properly with the right timing so I don't screw my dog up with un necessary zapping. When I'm ready to buy a E collar (hopefully soon) I'll PM you.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

You might consider putting an orange vest on him when you're out there. Lots of people go shooting in the desert and you might get some idiot who will later claim that he thought he was either a wild dog, a coyote, or something equally absurd, and shoot him.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

LouCastle said:


> You might consider putting an orange vest on him when you're out there. Lots of people go shooting in the desert and you might get some idiot who will later claim that he thought he was either a wild dog, a coyote, or something equally absurd, and shoot him.


I thought about that. that's what I'll probably end up doing. I should tell my friend to do that since her dog's coat color blends into the sand. I do t believe people can be shooting where we go though. it's Glamis down by Brawley I don't know if you know where that is, but that's where we go. but i'll defiantly look into an orange vest just so the people on quads can see him since they like to ride right through or really close to our camp.


----------

