# Sickening, officer beats K9.



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sheriff: Ramsey Co. Deputy Caught On Camera Abusing K-9 « CBS Minnesota

Warning, graphic and disturbing. Glad officer is being charged and will lose his job if he hasn't already.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Sheriff: Ramsey Co. Deputy Caught On Camera Abusing K-9 « CBS Minnesota
> 
> Warning, graphic and disturbing. Glad officer is being charged and will lose his job if he hasn't already.


I did not view your offering. I can't look at animal abuse. To me, on this site posting animal abuse videos does no good. We know it happens, watching does not help. What is to be gained by posting this pain for us all?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I can't watch either, but I am glad you warned its graphic and hopefully justice is served.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I hate it, because I know so so so many officers that have K9's and their k9s are truly their brothers in blue just like their human counterparts. Makes me so angry to see one abuse the relationship and potentially put others in a negative light that don't deserve to be there. I firmly believe that for every dirt bag like this there are 100's of others that absolutely love their k9 partners and treat them with fairness and compassion.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I didn't watch the video but read the article.. my heart breaks for that poor dog


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I can not imagine the restraint that dog used not to strike back as it has been trained to do so. I can only hope that those who will judge this man remembers that if he can do this to his 'k-9 partner', nothing would stop him from abusing the public to whom he swore to protect. 

Personally, I wish they'd turn that officer lose in a room full of his fellow k-9 handlers. I think they'd provide the justice this piece of crap deserves.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's horrifying. K9 officers and LEO's I know are furious. They want him in jail in general population.

These animals trust their people. They aren't going to fight back against their person. This dog would have had his back in any situation. And this is how he was repaid for that loyalty.


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## DogWalker (Jun 16, 2015)

That guy's (I will not offend others by referring to him as officer) actions are inexcusable and disgusting.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I can not imagine the restraint that dog used not to strike back as it has been trained to do so. I can only hope that those who will judge this man remembers that if he can do this to his 'k-9 partner', nothing would stop him from abusing the public to whom he swore to protect.
> 
> Personally, I wish they'd turn that officer lose in a room full of his fellow k-9 handlers. I think they'd provide the justice this piece of crap deserves.


Dogs aren't trained to bite their handlers. At least not on purpose. Even the most bad ass dog will take heavy physical correction from their handler if they were trained correctly. 

The guy was a total **** though. No rhyme or reason behind what was done. Definitely abuse.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

That poor dog! He was terrified, I probably would have been arrested if I witnessed that!


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

They would arrest me too if I ever saw that happening.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

My understanding is that military working dogs aren't always treated well either. I understand that they are kept in some pretty bad conditions, are locked up with little exercise, and aren't really loved and respected like we think most animals should be. They are a tool or a weapon, in a sense, and nothing more. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rules and some (most?) MWD handlers are dog lovers. I've seen off leash MWDs running around the flightline playing fetch with their handler. That was refreshing to see.

The military is dominated by people who like to hunt and kill animals in the name of sport, so the line between pet and prey is much thinner when you put guns in the hands of a bunch of ego-driven alpha males. I think the love a MWD handler would have for his own dog is different than his dog "at the office." Ha! I wish it wasn't this way though.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Makes me sick. 

I don't know, Stonevinatge. I can't help thinking that maybe in some way, the publication of abuses will ultimately result in changes being made. At the very least, at least people can't pretend it doesn't exist...


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Ummmm Counter... I think I disagree with you.

"The military is dominated by people who like to hunt and kill animals in the name of sport, so the line between pet and prey is much thinner when you put guns in the hands of a bunch of ego-driven alpha males." 

I am former military. I don't hunt or kill for sport. I am not an ego driven alpha male and most of the guys I know who are military or retired military are not either. I am not even male. Many MWD handlers are female. 

As for the officer involved in this? I am certain he will be dealt with. I could not watch the video as it was blocked at work. I actually saw this on facebook last week but still did not watch the video.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Baillif said:


> Dogs aren't trained to bite their handlers. At least not on purpose. Even the most bad ass dog will take heavy physical correction from their handler if they were trained correctly.
> 
> .


I meant defend itself in the event of an attack. A dog that has been trained to expect resistance.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

counter said:


> My understanding is that military working dogs aren't always treated well either. I understand that they are kept in some pretty bad conditions, are locked up with little exercise, and aren't really loved and respected like we think most animals should be. They are a tool or a weapon, in a sense, and nothing more. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rules and some (most?) MWD handlers are dog lovers. I've seen off leash MWDs running around the flightline playing fetch with their handler. That was refreshing to see.
> 
> The military is dominated by people who like to hunt and kill animals in the name of sport, so the line between pet and prey is much thinner when you put guns in the hands of a bunch of ego-driven alpha males. I think the love a MWD handler would have for his own dog is different than his dog "at the office." Ha! I wish it wasn't this way though.


I'm curious where you're getting this from? How many MWD handlers you know? Where you get your idea of "military people hunt and kill animals in the name of sport"? That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with. 

I've had the pleasure of knowing many MWD handlers, and every single one of them treated their dogs like gold. All of the dogs that were deployed with my husband's unit over the years were treated like gold. 

And funny, very few of the military members we've known have been hunters. Or "ego driven alpha-males with guns."


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

I have to partially agree with counter but only due to the opinions of both my parents who were both in the Air Force. Once they were discharged, they told me that they would rather me NOT enlist in the military for some of the reasons that counter named along with some other ones. They were definitely disillusioned after 8 years of serving (each individually). 

But let's just keep it real, all this really goes to show is that anyone can be a bad person regardless of profession or status. I agree, it should not be a reflection of K9 handlers as a whole, but you would think with all the scrunity that is going on nowadays, that people would exercise a little more restraint.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Ummmm Counter... I think I disagree with you.
> 
> "The military is dominated by people who like to hunt and kill animals in the name of sport, so the line between pet and prey is much thinner when you put guns in the hands of a bunch of ego-driven alpha males."
> 
> ...


The Air Force has more women than any other branch ratio-wise (and 2nd by total population), but even in the Air Force, the largest career fields are aircraft maintenance, munitions and security forces, all of which are mostly male dominated. I don't hunt or fish either, but I realize that I'm in the minority. I used to be in the Navy and deployed with the Marines and Army, and it was the same with them as it was in the Navy and now in the Air Force. I can only speak from my experience though. I'm sure if I worked at the hospital or admin office I might think otherwise. When those people come out to the flightline, it's like they've stepped into another world and have no idea what happens out there, even though we're all in the Air Force and our primary mission is support/taking care of the planes.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm curious where you're getting this from? How many MWD handlers you know? Where you get your idea of "military people hunt and kill animals in the name of sport"? That's an awfully broad brush you're painting with.
> 
> I've had the pleasure of knowing many MWD handlers, and every single one of them treated their dogs like gold. All of the dogs that were deployed with my husband's unit over the years were treated like gold.
> 
> And funny, very few of the military members we've known have been hunters. Or "ego driven alpha-males with guns."


I was going to crosstrain into Security Forces for the sole purpose of working with the MWDs, until I found out that my rank would put me in a desk position as the Kennel Master instead of a handler. Plus, the USAF had too many NCOs in Security Forces, and I wouldn't have been able to retrain anyways. But I have spoken and worked with many MWDs in my 18 years of active duty service, and have done volunteer events where together we protected the US Air Force Chief of Staff 4-star General alongside the Air Force Chiefs of Staff from England, Canada and Australia. While in Korea, I would volunteer at the base dog kennel that was next to the K9 Kennel, and the person who ran it was the husband of a MWD handler. There are plenty of other experiences, probably too many to list. I try to speak from experience instead of he said she said type stuff. I only go by what I know and have seen.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

And to verify:

I'm not saying MWD handlers beat and abuse their dogs. However, "abuse" to a pet lover is not always seen as abuse by a working dog handler. I learned this day 1 of K9 SAR training. The unit was run by a former Army Ranger, and his son was a current Navy Seal. In the initial orientation training, we were briefed to stop viewing our SAR K9s as pets and start seeing them as working dogs, aka tools to locate lost subjects. It was really awkward, but it is the same impression I received from talking and working with MWD handlers. They might have a bond with their dog (some of them, not all of them), but it's not the same as their bond with their own dog, if they even own one. The dogs were crated or kenneled more hours than we would think is fair. They weren't fed top of the line food. They weren't exercised much. They were in unclean pens with their own urine and stool. This was seen as normal, because they aren't pets, they are tools utilized to get a job done. Not all MWD handlers are like this, but I remember even talking to some who said they don't even like dogs. Why would you be in a career field shred that has you working with K9s all day? Some of it is for career progression to make themselves look good. There are lots of other non-K9 related reasons too. My personal reason is just loving dogs, being passionate about working with them, and helping others through the use of my K9. But again, that's my experience. I don't expect us to all have the same experience. I know my experience helped me understand that other dog handlers think differently about their K9s than I would think about my own, and it would make it slightly awkward to know we see differently on the respect, love and care of a working K9. They would have their reasons, and I would have mine, and I guess that's what makes the world go round, right!?! Ha.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I had a conversation with a Marine who said pretty much the same thing as Counter.

I'm sure there are exceptions, such as David Winners on this forum, but I know what Counter says is true, as well.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't mean to hijack this thread. And I'm not looking for debates. I was just trying to add to the conversation and speak from my experience. I think more of the people on this forum do not have a military background, and even less know much about working K9s, so I wanted to show "the other side" where it is not all rainbows, unicorns and lollipops. I work with people that catch rabbits and squirrels and put them in the office microwave for fun. They beat them with hammers and freeze them to use as a prank on a fellow co-worker, where they'll hide the mutilated/decapitated corpse in their unlocked lockers. One co-worker offered to give me wolf meat (once he was able to shoot and kill one) to feed my raw diet-fed dogs if I wanted. I hear this type of stuff weekly. It's "the norm" in my military experience. I grew thick skin early on in my career, and am just biting my tongue until I retire.


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## Kels1013 (May 30, 2015)

What really annoyed me with the OP's linked article is this line:

"He is an 18-year veteran of the department and has received letters of recognition in the past"

As if that is some sort of defense. "Well, you know he really is a good guy and officer look at all his recognitions!"

That seemed unnecessary to include in the article and didn't even flow with the nature of the article. I don't care how long he has been a police officer or how many letters of recognitions he's had, it does not excuse that sort of behavior. Nothing excuses that sort of behavior.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I meant defend itself in the event of an attack. A dog that has been trained to expect resistance.


It cowers because it has a social relationship with the handler. Fighting a stranger they've been sent on is another behavior entirely.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Did not mean to hijack either but Counter I did not work in the hospital or admin. 
In fact I secured my current DOD civilian job as a result of my military experience working with ammunition and explosives. I have been around long enough that I am past retirement eligible and plan on going out next June in fact. I will have 32 years service.

I have had several deployments into the sandbox and have worked closely with service members from all 4 services, Special Forces, NATO forces, and most of the job specialties within the services. I have made the acquaintance of many MWD handlers and their dogs. Those dogs were lovingly cared for and the handlers did their best to insure they had everything they needed to include toys and play time in a very stressful environment. 

I am sure there are some LEO's that treat their dogs poorly but by and large those dogs are partners and should never be abused.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Did not mean to hijack either but Counter I did not work in the hospital or admin.
> In fact I secured my current DOD civilian job as a result of my military experience working with ammunition and explosives. I have been around long enough that I am past retirement eligible and plan on going out next June in fact. I will have 32 years service.
> 
> I have had several deployments into the sandbox and have worked closely with service members from all 4 services, Special Forces, NATO forces, and most of the job specialties within the services. I have made the acquaintance of many MWD handlers and their dogs. Those dogs were lovingly cared for and the handlers did their best to insure they had everything they needed to include toys and play time in a very stressful environment.
> ...


 I did not say you worked in the hospital or admin. I was just saying that the mindset of the people over there is different, and they seem to lead happier, better lives. Most maintainers call them "nonners" (an insult meaning less important; the non-sortie producing career fields) but I feel it is mostly out of jealousy. I think, if given the chance, a lot of us would quit maintenance in a heartbeat and take one of those jobs. Heat in the winter. A/c in the summer. Better hours. Less deployments. Off the flightline and into a building 24/7 and out of the elements. Much slower ops tempo.

I work with (aircraft) explosives daily, like you did. I was fully qualified to crosstrain into EOD in Feb 2013, and that was my plan, until they told me I would have to go down in rank and then move from active duty to guard or reserve. I stuck with my current aircraft explosive maintenance job instead.

Not sure why you're trying to make this into some sort of competition of credibility between you and me, so I'll let you continue that conversation/competition by yourself. I don't feel the need to prove my credibility in order to back up what I said, and I've already wasted enough time explaining my experiences.

You are free to speak of your experiences and I respect that. But I am speaking from mine, and I know from experience that things are a lot different down range than they are back at home station.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Did not mean to hijack either but Counter I did not work in the hospital or admin.
> In fact I secured my current DOD civilian job as a result of my military experience working with ammunition and explosives. I have been around long enough that I am past retirement eligible and plan on going out next June in fact. I will have 32 years service.
> 
> I have had several deployments into the sandbox and have worked closely with service members from all 4 services, Special Forces, NATO forces, and most of the job specialties within the services. I have made the acquaintance of many MWD handlers and their dogs. Those dogs were lovingly cared for and the handlers did their best to insure they had everything they needed to include toys and play time in a very stressful environment.
> ...


It seems that the "abuse" being talked about in the military is all second hand...."I had a conversation", so now I believe there is a lot of abuse towards the Military dogs. Where those that actually worked WITH the handler/dog teams, and witnessed first hand the relationships, have a different opinion. I have no experience with military handler teams, and can only speak towards LEO teams, but I definitely pay attention to where the "experience" and knowledge comes from when reading opinions. 

On another note, most men/women seem to really connect and "care" about animals...even the toughest, meanest "alpha" (lol), men and women, turn into puddles of mush around animals they work alongside. That's just my thoughts. I don't think this is common at all, in any venue. That's just my opinion, though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> It seems that the "abuse" being talked about in the military is all second hand...."I had a conversation", *so now I believe there is a lot of abuse towards the Military dogs*.


That is not what I said.


This



counter said:


> And to verify:
> 
> I'm not saying MWD handlers beat and abuse their dogs. However, "abuse" to a pet lover is not always seen as abuse by a working dog handler .


...is what I said.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> That is not what I said.
> 
> 
> This
> ...


Not sure how you can quote someone else, and say that's what YOU said....But counter said a lot of things. Like below. You didn't directly quote anything he said. On top of that, I didn't quote you, I said that those with opinions of "pretty bad condition" and other similar phrases (sorry I used the word 'abuse' if that's what you are up in arms about) seem to be second hand. They aren't first hand, at least from those I've read around here.

"My understanding is that military working dogs aren't always treated well either. I understand that they are kept in some pretty bad conditions, are locked up with little exercise, and aren't really loved and respected like we think most animals should be."


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm no stranger to giving hard corrections that a lot of people would wince if they saw. Lots of them would be controversial to the general public but there is reason behind it when it happens. The video shows obvious abuse.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

It definitely seems like the government is trying to change the culture and mindset surrounding today's MWDs. Here are some articles I've pulled up that still show MWDs are seen as equipment, followed by examples that the government is trying to change that perception.

From a June 2014 National Geographic article:



> The image of dog and marine living as Lassie and Timmy, however, is not entirely accurate. In general, the military bureaucracy regards a working dog as a piece of equipment, something Jose understood the first time he saw Zenit’s ID—N103—tattooed in his ear. After their training sessions in Okinawa, Jose always returned Zenit to his kennel according to protocol, and he knew it was vital that he establish himself as the alpha in tone and action. “Dogs are like toddlers,” says Marine Gunnery Sgt. Kristopher Knight, who trained Jose and Zenit at Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona. “They need to be told what to do. They need to know that their primary drives—oxygen, food, water—are taken care of. Two betas will never get it right. One must be the alpha, and it must be the handler.”
> 
> The truth was, until Afghanistan and that August day in 2011, Jose would have repeated the party line. If Zenit stepped on an IED and was killed, Jose was pretty sure he wouldn’t have shed a tear. Theirs was a strictly professional relationship and needed to remain that way. If Zenit got blown up, Jose would start all over again with another dog.


 From a 2015 article by Mike Dowling:



> MYTH: MWD’s GO HOME WITH THEIR HANDLERS EVERY DAY
> 
> Reality: When deployed, handlers and their dogs are inseparable and will stay in the same living quarters. However, when back at their U.S. base, handlers are not allowed to bring their dogs home at the end of each day, and for good reason. Every MWD is an incredibly valuable asset to each base and there are simply too many risks in allowing them to stay anywhere but a controlled kennel area.





> MYTH: MWD’s ARE CONSIDERED TO BE EQUIPMENT IN THE MILITARY
> 
> Once again, the most tragic moment in the history of the military working dog program was when they were considered to be surplus equipment at the end of the Vietnam war and left behind. However, the mentality that the military still considers them that way ended years ago. For all intents and purposes MWD’s are in no way thought of, treated, or tracked as equipment.
> 
> All MWD’s do receive a National Stock Number, or NSN, which allows the military to track and identify them but it’s the same as every service member being designated with a MOS (military occupational specialty) code so the military can track the kind of training they receive. Additionally, any official language found referring to MWD’s as equipment is currently being eliminated.


 From a 2014 article by Melissa Quinn:



> *Left Behind at Retirement *
> 
> For military personnel, retirement means returning home to U.S. soil and a grateful nation. But for military working dogs, the end of a career doesn’t lead to a ride home on a military transport, Ganzert explains.
> 
> ...


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

I couldn't continue through the video, made me so very angry and wanted to throw some punches in the [lets just censor the slew of names I have in mind]'s direction. Sickening.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

It would not have been a good thing for the dog,but I wish he had taken a few bites of his abusive handler.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This poor incredible dog he seemed to know to run and looked like he was bracing himself. I wonder how often this has happened. There are no words that can describe what should happen to this man.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

counter said:


> It definitely seems like the government is trying to change the culture and mindset surrounding today's MWDs.


 May be you "overstated" your case?? But lots of us while not having served are military brats and we get your saying!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I'm no stranger to giving hard corrections that a lot of people would wince if they saw. Lots of them would be controversial to the general public but there is reason behind it when it happens.


Yep and you explained it pretty well in the past! I can't do it but I understood what you were saying so thanks for that! Your efforts here aren't wasted!

I'm a big proponent of training "calmness" into dogs on the Boxerforum now...although "Sit on the Dog" goes over like a lead balloon over there...Boxer folks,so yeah!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> May be you "overstated" your case?? But lots of us while not having served are military brats and we get your saying!


Oops should have read "we get what your saying!"


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

counter said:


> It definitely seems like the government is trying to change the culture and mindset surrounding today's MWDs. Here are some articles I've pulled up that still show MWDs are seen as equipment, followed by examples that the government is trying to change that perception.
> 
> From a June 2014 National Geographic article:
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting these articles. We had the question come not too long ago about whether war dogs were always brought home for retirement. Some people thought they always were nowadays, others were not so sure. This last article seems to indicate that there is still room for improvement, if I am reading it correctly?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Counter-Very informative articles. I understand its a start And starts are very slow moving. These incredible dogs willl forever need people to fight for them and to watch out for them so they dont get lost somewhere in the shuffle and loopholes.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

"Soldier Dogs" gives a lot of information on this subject. The adoption program out of Langley AFB is looked at in great detail in this book.

There are a couple of problems, as explained - these dogs, once trained become very valuable. When a handler finishes his deployment period he and the dog may go their separate ways. The dog can't simply be retired because the handler wants to adopt him. The dog is reassigned to a new handler. I believe they aren't retired for 7 or 8 years or until there is a health issue. 

It also explained that many of the adoption program dogs are "wash outs" that didn't make it through the training program for one reason or another. The dogs are not house trained, they are kennel dogs. One sad part is the sentry dogs - each dog must be evaluated for adoption suitability before becoming available to the handler or the public. Many of the sentry trained dogs are put down when their service is finished because they are deemed unsafe. 

I for one, am not sad that the GSD is being used less and less in this type of work. It's nothing I would wish on any dog. The dogs get used so hard, many have health issues and break down way early from the sheer punishment of the work. They will use a dog with known issues as long as they can perform the job, not caring that it will cause the dog an early death. The book had photos of one dog being sent on her 3rd back to back deployment (3 different handlers) and had that degenerative eye disease so she works wearing the goggles 12 hours per day and hates them, sad. 

If a dog is seriously or mortally wounded, in pain but not dead. They can't get to it because of the danger of unexploded mines that may be lying between them and their dog. Hopefully, soon dogs will no longer be needed in war zones.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Yes, this is horribly insane to watch a handler abuse his dog. Yes, I've no doubt that there are instances where Service dogs are misused, abused and cast out when they are no longer of use. 

But I wouldn't even entertain the idea of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, there are a few people who aren't worth the spit in my mouth, but there are many, many, many Service men and women who owe their lives to their K-9 partners. Service men and women who do all they can to protect their K-9 partners. Service men and women who would rather call a K-9 their partner. 

The conditions the K-9s are in when in the field are deplorable, but they are right beside the men and women who depend on them with their lives.


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