# Finland temporarily bans all bite sports



## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

Back with more news in the dog world. Again, all credits to the original author. The link to view the video in this article is here : 



Tili suljettu / Account Suspended




The Finnish Kennel Club Kennelliitto has announced a ban on training of guard dogs as a hobby after video last week showed animals being abused by trainers.

The video, taken secretly at training events and released by Finnish animal rights group Oikeuttaelaimille shows dogs being beaten, kicked, dragged around by the neck, whipped with leashes and beaten with sticks as part of the training process. The animals are also throttled around the neck if they don’t bite on pads firmly enough, and only released when they learn to bite harder.

Other compliance methods include the use of electric shock collars on German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois and Dobermans as part of a hobby where enthusiasts try to train their pets in the same way that guard dogs might be trained for official duties by police.

However these abusive training methods are illegal in Finland.

“The Board of the Kennel Club decided to suspend for the time being all activities related to the training and testing of protection dogs” says Kennelliitto in a statement.

“Activities can be resumed once the deficiencies in operations have been identified and corrected, and all operating models have been developed in accordance with the Animal Welfare Act, supporting animal welfare” they add.

The video was compiled with hidden camera footage from training events Paimio and Loviisa and now 15 people and three training associations are under investigation in connection with animal welfare issues.

“The extent of the material shows that this is not the practice of a few dog owners, but that a culture of violent training has spread widely” says Oikeuttaelaimille.

“The activities have been organized and the associations that organized them have known about the tools and methods used in the training.”

Dogs are protected by the Animal Welfare Act in Finland which says they must be treated well and not subjected to unnecessary suffering.

“The production of unnecessary pain and suffering to animals is prohibited” the law states.

It is prohibited to kick or strike an animals as punishment under the terms of the law.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That will eventually happen everywhere because people who don’t care for protection sports want to tell others what to do and not do.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm pretty sure what that video shows cannot be rightly referred to as "training". They are right to shut them down to get this straightened out!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> That will eventually happen everywhere because people who don’t care for protection sports want to tell others what to do and not do.


I'd recommend watching the video. This isn't them lying like with greyhound racing and sled dog racing opponents.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Are prongs and ecollars banned in Finland? This video makes me think that’s the case.

I also have no doubt some trainers in US/Canada would do the same to their dogs if prongs/ecollars were banned here.


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

My trainer had actually told us a story yesterday about how some trainer visiting from germany used the rib kicking method and told my trainer that he should do it with his own dogs. Now, that was YEARS ago before I was even born. To see this method is even still being used today??? C'mon people. Just ruining it for the rest of us who actually enjoy the sport and love our dogs.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

While I absolutely agree that this behavior isn’t okay and shouldn’t be normal, I honestly think this is a stupid response. Banning all bite sports? Seriously? In ANY kind of training you’ll have someone being abusive. Any sport. Even in-the-home pet obedience. It happens everywhere. It happens regardless of the tools used. It happens regardless of the breed or size of dog in question. It happens regardless of experience in dog ownership. It happens all. the. time. If you’re going to ban bite sports because some people are being abusive, you may as well completely ban dog ownership altogether.


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

Pytheis said:


> While I absolutely agree that this behavior isn’t okay and shouldn’t be normal, I honestly think this is a stupid response. Banning all bite sports? Seriously? In ANY kind of training you’ll have someone being abusive. Any sport. Even in-the-home pet obedience. It happens everywhere. It happens regardless of the tools used. It happens regardless of the breed or size of dog in question. It happens regardless of experience in dog ownership. It happens all. the. time. If you’re going to ban bite sports because some people are being abusive, you may as well completely ban dog ownership altogether.


In Australia some areas have banned bite sports/training completely and there are serious penalty’s. I also believe there was consideration for banning activities that may cause a dog to experience stress. That would cover many dog sport and activities. 


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't see abusive behavior on any trainer's part, or any dog owner for that matter, as any way shape or form connected to or solely related to bite sports. So I think Australia's ban on those sports is unfortunate and misguided!

That being said, a temporary shut down sends a pretty strong message to abusive, psuedo trainers. And saying that others are doing it too doesn't mean something shouldn't be done to stop it!

I'd love for any of these folks to define the advantages of hitting your dog repeatedly in the face, or the kicking that was going on in that video.

I've mentioned this before but I have a neighbor with a small Chihuahua puppy. Their idea of teaching it recall was to scream, chase, and ultimately catch and spank their little puppy.

I made jokes about how well they were training her the chase game. I also pointed out that spanking the dog once you catch her just makes her more likely to play chase longer, not to come quicker!

Finally they bought a leash. The puppy is now 7 months or so old, amazingly enough still doesn't come when called. Go figure!

Point is, leash pops or use of tools like a prong or e-collar are not abusive! But when I see someone repeatedly slapping or punching their dog in the face, I can't help thinking all "training" objectives have been forgotten. People shouldn't see that as training, or okay. It's really misguided at best, and senseless animal abuse at its worst.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> While I absolutely agree that this behavior isn’t okay and shouldn’t be normal, I honestly think this is a stupid response. Banning all bite sports? Seriously? In ANY kind of training you’ll have someone being abusive. Any sport. Even in-the-home pet obedience. It happens everywhere. It happens regardless of the tools used. It happens regardless of the breed or size of dog in question. It happens regardless of experience in dog ownership. It happens all. the. time. If you’re going to ban bite sports because some people are being abusive, you may as well completely ban dog ownership altogether.


It is somewhat true. I've seen people haul of a smack a dog much like this video in an AKC obedience class. Ironically, the club that runs that class has a very self righteous statement on their site saying that shock collars are inhumane and not allowed in their training classes. I quit going to the class because the hitting was too upsetting to me to be around. When you let your dog offlead to do a recall an it runs out of the ring and hides under the agility equipment, you've lost your way and you'll never convince me otherwise.

I know aussie people who take the dog out back and beat it if the ring performance is sub par to them. 

I know of a recent controversy where a well known agility person picked her dog up and threw it at a jump it had missed during competition. Apparently the judge "didn't see". She owns a big facility and is "somebody" and people just keep letting this go on. Apparently some spectators made a formal complaint but nothing is expected to come of it. People just look the other way.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> you may as well completely ban dog ownership altogether.


which by the way is the end goal of a lot of these AR groups....


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Bella99 said:


> In Australia some areas have banned bite sports/training completely and there are serious penalty’s. I also believe there was consideration for banning activities that may cause a dog to experience stress. That would cover many dog sport and activities.


Well that helps prove my point. Dogs and certain dog breeds were designed to do jobs, to help people complete tasks. Sometimes it’s stressful, but the dogs love it when they’re being trained right because it’s what they were born to do. A huge portion of dogs are not happy _not_ working (or doing sports) and the German shepherd is one of them. Border collies, Australian shepherds, Belgian Malinois all come to mind as well. Banning dogs from doing what they were literally MADE for is completely idiotic. The purely positive crowd. The “fur-baby” crowd. They’re ruining dogs - literally.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Breeds are ruined by genetic selection, not training approaches. One could argue protection sports' influence (some more than others) on breeds has contributed to a loss of genetics that suited breeds like the GSD more for actual work because of the way some sports have shifted much more into a performance contest than a way to evaluate dogs for work. "Being trained right" is very subjective and vague. One size doesn't fit all. I have said before, the KNPV Dutch training culture has traditionally been very harsh (some of their clubs recently were disbanded for the same reasons noted in this thread but more severe) but many argue that the harsh training of the KNPV contributes to weeding out all but the most resilient dogs. I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse. It also shows the contagion aspect of punishment and how it becomes so reinforcing to the punisher.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

How do you get from 'The Finnish Kennel Club Kennelito' banning 'guard dog hobby training' to _Finland _banning all bite sports? The rhetoric here is exaggerated to the point of inaccuracy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

“The Board of the Kennel Club decided to suspend for the time being *all activities* related to the training and testing of protection dogs”


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

CactusWren said:


> How do you get from 'The Finnish Kennel Club Kennelito' banning 'guard dog hobby training' to _Finland _banning all bite sports? The rhetoric here is exaggerated to the point of inaccuracy.


Ok. Then i’ll rename it. 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bella99 said:


> Ok. Then i’ll rename it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why? Its accurate.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

CactusWren said:


> How do you get from 'The Finnish Kennel Club Kennelito' banning 'guard dog hobby training' to _Finland _banning all bite sports? The rhetoric here is exaggerated to the point of inaccuracy.


What is it you think they banned? This is equivalent to the AKC banning bite sports. Granted here, there are a lot of options not affiliated with the akc, but once upon a time this was the case


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365323220644159490
call me a conspiracy theorist, but when I look _REAL CLOSE_ that vid looks fishy. Sure doesn't look like anything I've ever seen. None of it looks right to me. 3 dogs, 8 people, one location, and the natural light doesn't vary , so it all transpired very quickly.

never trust a kennel club






does this look like abuse? I'm sure it does to some. Not to me because I can see for myself the dog is having a ball. But I can't help wondering if a kennel club judge, or worse yet a kennel club breeder jury might not strongly disagree?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Breeds are ruined by genetic selection, not training approaches. One could argue protection sports' influence (some more than others) on breeds has contributed to a loss of genetics that suited breeds like the GSD more for actual work because of the way some sports have shifted much more into a performance contest than a way to evaluate dogs for work. "Being trained right" is very subjective and vague. One size doesn't fit all. I have said before, the KNPV Dutch training culture has traditionally been very harsh (some of their clubs recently were disbanded for the same reasons noted in this thread but more severe) but many argue that the harsh training of the KNPV contributes to weeding out all but the most resilient dogs. I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse. It also shows the contagion aspect of punishment and how it becomes so reinforcing to the punisher.


You see nothing wrong in that video??? Wow you must think it’s ok to kick and slap your dog. Oh so the more u beat your dog the stronger it is??? Complete BS.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Show me where I said I didn't see anything wrong on that video. I said I didn't see severe abuse such as putting electric on a dog's testicles, hitting a dog with a shovel, or choking a dog out. Show me where I said I thought the training was okay. Complete BS.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Show me where I said I didn't see anything wrong on that video. I said I didn't see severe abuse such as putting electric on a dog's testicles, hitting a dog with a shovel, or choking a dog out. Show me where I said I thought the training was okay. Complete BS.


I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse.
Your words no????? I guess you consider kicking a dog a lack of knowledge also.
enough said I know where you stand.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> Well that helps prove my point. Dogs and certain dog breeds were designed to do jobs, to help people complete tasks. Sometimes it’s stressful, but the dogs love it when they’re being trained right because it’s what they were born to do. A huge portion of dogs are not happy _not_ working (or doing sports) and the German shepherd is one of them. Border collies, Australian shepherds, Belgian Malinois all come to mind as well. Banning dogs from doing what they were literally MADE for is completely idiotic. The purely positive crowd. The “fur-baby” crowd. They’re ruining dogs - literally.


I see your point but I would also say that working breeds can have great lives even as members of the pure positive crowd. I was a card carrying koolaid drinking member with my working line service dog and she had a great life and a job. Later I defected and did do some recall proofing with e collar because it was necessary but her quality of life wasn't impacted by that as much as her day to day safety was. 

I know some good trainers who are purely positive or pretty close to it whose dogs are having great lives. 

For that matter I'm pretty close to reward only with my current competition dog... he has an awesome life. He competes in a bunch of sports and I have never used any kind of compulsion or correction in training those. Why would I? He loves his sports and he wants to get it right.

He also got e collar proofing for recall and very brief prong proofing during his stupid adolescence when he thought he might throw his weight around. He is a big dog, 90lb, so he needs to have respect for the lady holding his leash.

But honestly I could have got by without the prong, I just thought it was a faster more direct way to deal with it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think on the whole most people are way too quick to blame the dog in one way or another and want to "correct" and/or punish the dog for incorrect response or sub par response. 

I think a LOT of those issues were caused by the training or the handler, directly or indirectly so why are we so quick to come down on the dog for it and make them make up for our mistakes.

People are so quick to label a dog lazy, stubborn, disobedient. 

Maybe it is moving slow because it wants to figure out what you want and get it right and not get punished. That's a real life example of someone I know. She never gets the snappy obedience she wants. Because the dog is worried. Not because he is bad.

Horse and dog training both needed an ethical overhaul. I fear we will go too far like we always do. I don't want that to happen. But we SHOULD think long and hard before we cause pain to an animal who doesn't have a choice.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I see your point but I would also say that working breeds can have great lives even as members of the pure positive crowd. I was a card carrying koolaid drinking member with my working line service dog and she had a great life and a job. Later I defected and did do some recall proofing with e collar because it was necessary but her quality of life wasn't impacted by that as much as her day to day safety was.
> 
> I know some good trainers who are purely positive or pretty close to it whose dogs are having great lives.
> 
> ...


I didn’t say they can’t have good lives with positive trainers/owners. Of course they can. Some dogs completely shut down when corrected - my golden retriever being one of them. Everything has to be always happy with her or she completely loses it.

My problem is with the extremists who think it’s abusive to tell a dog ‘no.’ That it’s not okay for a dog to feel any kind of stress or pressure. Stress is a part of life. Sometimes a dog doesn’t like something (like going to the vet) but it still has to be done. That isn’t abusive. Treating a dog like a human child and not like a dog is a problem. Not setting boundaries is a problem. The ones that do no training and have a little hellion of a dog because it breaks their heart to see the dog suffer. 🙄
Those are the people I’m talking about when I say ‘purely positive.’


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I used predominantly compulsion with Bud, because it was the best way to do things with that dog. That said, at no point did I cross the line to kicking or punching or choking or whipping. 
Folks can call that motivation or adding stress but it's abuse. To my mind if you need to employ those means to get a dog to work either you screwed up the training or the dog is not a working dog. 
Using a prong or an e collar as a tool is one thing, using them as a weapon is another. 
I was walking Shadow a few weeks ago at night and she tried to grab a mouthful of the roadside snow bank. I used my foot to push her head away, because she ignored my no, just as a car drove by. 
Two things happened. The lady stopped her car and called me a nasty name while inquiring if I had just kicked my dog and Shadow got some reminder lessons on NO and Leave It! over the next few days. I wonder what that lady would think of that video.
I use my feet to play with my dogs and to move my dogs, I don't kick my dogs. To me that particular action screams temper tantrum, as does repeatedly slapping a dog. That's a handler loosing their cool and long before it got to that point the dog should have been put up.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

It will be interesting to see where the "slippery slope" takes this world.


SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> I didn’t say they can’t have good lives with positive trainers/owners. Of course they can. Some dogs completely shut down when corrected - my golden retriever being one of them. Everything has to be always happy with her or she completely loses it.
> 
> My problem is with the extremists who think it’s abusive to tell a dog ‘no.’ That it’s not okay for a dog to feel any kind of stress or pressure. Stress is a part of life. Sometimes a dog doesn’t like something (like going to the vet) but it still has to be done. That isn’t abusive. Treating a dog like a human child and not like a dog is a problem. Not setting boundaries is a problem. The ones that do no training and have a little hellion of a dog because it breaks their heart to see the dog suffer. 🙄
> Those are the people I’m talking about when I say ‘purely positive.’


I agree...we need a good solid middle ground. Where we have boundaries, we can be realistic. Employ common sense. Be fair to the dog. Consider the dog's welfare. In all ways.

Because I had a foster dog who had never gotten to run free in her life except when she escaped humans, which she has become very adept at. It was a super dangerous hobby. Mostly field type lab, high energy dog who really needed to run. I e collar trained her and began walking her off leash daily and her quality of life improved astronomically. The little bit of discomfort she got from the e collar, in my opinion, was nothing compared to the discomfort of being trapped in a house and never able to run free. She was sooo happy once she could be called back and got her freedom.

No absolutes. It was more cruel to not let that dog run than 2 weeks of e collar bootcamp to get her where she could be reliably called.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I agree...we need a good solid middle ground. Where we have boundaries, we can be realistic. Employ common sense. Be fair to the dog. Consider the dog's welfare. In all ways.
> 
> Because I had a foster dog who had never gotten to run free in her life except when she escaped humans, which she has become very adept at. It was a super dangerous hobby. Mostly field type lab, high energy dog who really needed to run. I e collar trained her and began walking her off leash daily and her quality of life improved astronomically. The little bit of discomfort she got from the e collar, in my opinion, was nothing compared to the discomfort of being trapped in a house and never able to run free. She was sooo happy once she could be called back and got her freedom.
> 
> No absolutes. It was more cruel to not let that dog run than 2 weeks of e collar bootcamp to get her where she could be reliably called.


I'll bet ya......your rationalization will carry absolutely no weight down the "slope" and you'll be "cancelled".........I'm not disagreeing with your post at all but..... your comment.......

" we need a good solid middle ground." will never be static and it will continue to evolve down the "slope".

SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SuperG said:


> I'll bet ya......your rationalization will carry absolutely no weight down the "slope" and you'll be "cancelled".........I'm not disagreeing with your post at all but..... your comment.......
> 
> " we need a good solid middle ground." will never be static and it will continue to evolve down the "slope".
> 
> SuperG


I'm sure you're right. I hear conversations amongst these people and I know what they think. I try to keep it straight of everyone I know where can I say what or use what collar without the dog training police pouncing on me.

I so wish we didn't have to go to such extremes


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

For about the first 35 min of episode 123, the guys of working dog radio interview dog trainers Pat Stuart and Glenn Cooke on what it’s like living in Australia with prong collar, ecollar and bitework bans while training pet dogs and police dogs. They discuss some differences in legislation between the US and AUS. I know this thread was mostly about Finland but it’s worth a listen if you are interested in such things. 


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Breeds are ruined by genetic selection, not training approaches. One could argue protection sports' influence (some more than others) on breeds has contributed to a loss of genetics that suited breeds like the GSD more for actual work because of the way some sports have shifted much more into a performance contest than a way to evaluate dogs for work. "Being trained right" is very subjective and vague. One size doesn't fit all. I have said before, the KNPV Dutch training culture has traditionally been very harsh (some of their clubs recently were disbanded for the same reasons noted in this thread but more severe) but many argue that the harsh training of the KNPV contributes to weeding out all but the most resilient dogs. I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse. It also shows the contagion aspect of punishment and how it becomes so reinforcing to the punisher.


Actually funny enough I think a certain type of ecollar usage in some hunting dogs particularly labs has resulted in some less than ideal dogs. They are still trainable and usable but I'd argue they're overall lower quality. In that case the training approach resulted in a reduction in genetic selection which resulted in subpar dogs being bred. This could also be argued as poor breeding but the training approaches are changing what's considered suitable to be bred and then of course in many of the offspring you then are setting yourself up to need those training methods (such as medicating to reduce fear of guns).

I feel like some genetic selection can becomes less relevant when people use training to get the same behaviors that can be produced with selection. Ability to settle, the debatable "offswitch" is one such thing that comes to mind. I've had dogs that naturally settle and others that have had to be trained to settle.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This is one of those things you can argue about until way after the cows come home, as the saying goes, but will never be resolved. And, IMHE, with Chip in particular. It's all good. Everyone is entitled to an opinion!

But let's not derail the original intent of the thread, which was Finland's temporary ban on protection Sports, based on some questionably obtained footage of - and here I'm using my own language/ interpretation - seriously, ridiculous treatment of dogs that were "in training".

This thread IS about that...nothing else! Cheers!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse.
> Your words no????? I guess you consider kicking a dog a lack of knowledge also.
> enough said I know where you stand.


You "guess" and then you "know." What do you "know?" I can only infer that you "know" that I approve of kicking dogs and use such training approaches. If that is the case, you don't "know" what you don't "know." You are being presumptuous and condescending. I train dogs because I enjoy it as a creative outlet. Creative outlets are about coming up with productive solutions, effective communication and thinking outside the box. For me, that doesn't have anything to do with hitting, kicking or abusing a dog. I rely heavily on building a long, tedious foundation based on positive reinforcement so that the dog learns how to learn. I also believe that building a healthy relationship with my dog is always ongoing. I don't have to use much compulsion or any severe compulsion in my training because of the time I put into the foundation. The people in the video I watched from Finland, were, IMO stupid (and lazy) because they didn't know more effective training approaches or were unwilling to use them. Now you have a better idea of where I "stand." In the future, consider asking some questions instead of spewing invalid conclusions that are "complete BS."


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Eh...wrong thread....


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I looked at the video again and realized all the trainers hitting and kicking their dogs are women.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I looked at the video again and realized all the trainers hitting and kicking their dogs are women.


Your point??


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I looked at the video again and realized all the trainers hitting and kicking their dogs are women.


And??


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My point is they were all women.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> My point is they were all women.


Anyone with a brain is wondering _why _you think that needed to be said.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I didn't think it needed to be said. It was an observation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I didn't think it needed to be said. It was an observation.


Well, my observation is that more women attend training classes then men. Same as more woman used to buy maps.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Maybe humans should have to take temperament tests before they're allowed to own a dog. This shows handlers who don't have the patience it takes to actually train one.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> What is it you think they banned? This is equivalent to the AKC banning bite sports. Granted here, there are a lot of options not affiliated with the akc, but once upon a time this was the case


The Kennel Club is not Finland, anymore than the AKC is The United States of America. It is inaccurate and we can already see others running with it and making the typical political (as yet unmoderated) statements.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

CactusWren said:


> The Kennel Club is not Finland, anymore than the AKC is The United States of America. It is inaccurate and we can already see others running with it and making the typical political (as yet unmoderated) statements.


The akc stance on bite sports and training in general has had a major impact on American culture and views of working dogs in general. It’s one of the major reasons ASL are what they are in regards to temperament. It’s the reason you didn’t see schutzhund here until the 70’s. Not having your kennel club and breed club play along can have some adverse effects like competing internationally. As for the pseudo political statements, you can draw that from a lot of things here and they generally flow both ways. I don’t think it’s out of control here. There are some “dog boards” more about it than actual dogs. I saw a thread with a video of a dog working get completely shut down because of people arguing it’s political association. I seen a similar thing happen to a thread here. If you wanted to avoid politics entirely, you’d basically have to hole up in house. Back to kennel club actions, they’ve effectively shut down clubs. Here is an AKC person giving their opinion on working dogs. I personally hate giving people like this any publicity.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Good Grief! Let's get back to an interesting and polite discussion. Politics and insults are not allowed.If you have a problem with someone work it out privately.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

CactusWren said:


> *The Kennel Club is not Finland, anymore than the AKC is The United States of America*. It is inaccurate and we can already see others running with it and making the typical political (as yet unmoderated) statements.


That makes sense but isn't it possible that other organizations are jumping on board? I found this from the SPKL in Finland. (posted in part)

Suomen Palveluskoiraliitto

Suomen Palveluskoiraliitto ry:n tiedote: Väkivalta pois koirankoulutuksesta! - Suomen Palveluskoiraliitto

*Press release of the Association of Finnish Service Dogs: Violence away from dog training!*

26.02.2021 ǀ SPKL

_Press release published 26.2.2021_
*Violence out of dog training!*

..............................snip..................................
*For the time being, the Service Dog Association does not grant two sub-departments of the German Shepherds' Association the right to organise conservation tests and competitions.

Online training on ethical guidelines will be organised for all judges, competition aides and training instructors qualified by SPKL in cooperation with the Finnish Kennel Association. In order to maintain qualifications, training shall be successfully completed at regular intervals.*

Violence against dogs in training situations is being investigated by the authorities and the SPKL is monitoring the progress of the investigation. If charges are brought, the qualifications of the accused persons will be in transit for the time being.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Whiteshepherds said:


> That makes sense but isn't it possible that other organizations are jumping on board? I found this from the SPKL in Finland. (posted in part)
> 
> Suomen Palveluskoiraliitto
> 
> ...


Sure, it is possible and it's completely appropriate for you or anyone to share this information. Making inaccurate statements that paint the picture of an entire country as taking action against protection sports, however, is not and is also against the Terms of Service (libel).

No statement made by the AKC has the weight of law. Nor do the rules created by the Finnish equivalent.

I'm not saying the OP was intentionally being misleading, but this is what the title says, and only scrolling down a few posts sees the misinformation cascading down. Changing the title to accurately represent reality seems a small thing to ask.


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

I have found more videos from training at that Finnish dog club while perusing the Kennel clubs social media. It’s from a Finnish website that was shared by the Finnish Chief Commissioner Director of the Police(I had to translate that) . View it on your computer and it will translate everything for you. It is actually very interesting. 











Suojelukoirien koulutuksessa käytetään väkivaltaisia keinoja: salaa kuvatuilla videoilla koirille annetaan sähköiskuja, potkitaan ja lyödään


Ylen käyttöönsä saamat videot todistavat, että suojelukoirien koulutuksessa aiheutetaan eläimille kärsimystä: esimerkiksi potkitaan, lyödään, kuristetaan ja käytetään sähkö- sekä piikkipantaa.




yle.fi






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Scottie B (Dec 4, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Breeds are ruined by genetic selection, not training approaches. One could argue protection sports' influence (some more than others) on breeds has contributed to a loss of genetics that suited breeds like the GSD more for actual work because of the way some sports have shifted much more into a performance contest than a way to evaluate dogs for work. "Being trained right" is very subjective and vague. One size doesn't fit all. I have said before, the KNPV Dutch training culture has traditionally been very harsh (some of their clubs recently were disbanded for the same reasons noted in this thread but more severe) but many argue that the harsh training of the KNPV contributes to weeding out all but the most resilient dogs. I think the training on the video in this post shows more of a lack of knowledge in training than severe abuse. It also shows the contagion aspect of punishment and how it becomes so reinforcing to the punisher.


 If a dog is receptive to human interaction due to genetic factors then you don't need harsh training methods to get it to do what you want. That's the opposite of your idea of what genetic selection is, in case you missed it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A dog being receptive to human interaction is but a fraction of the traits required for a dog to have the genetics to make a good working (not sport) dog. A dog could have great genetics for engagement and genetically lack so many other traits and the proper genetically determined thresholds for those traits such as prey, hunt, defense, nerves, hardness, possessiveness, strong genetic grips, pain tolerance, etc, in case you missed it. I never said a dog needed harsh training for anything. I said the KNPV's harsh training culture has weeded out all but the most resilient dogs. Your comment, "That's the opposite of your idea of what genetic selection is, in case you missed it," doesn't even make any sense. What is the opposite of my idea of what genetic selection is? Genetic selection is very straight forward. You select breeding pairs with the genetic traits you are looking to reproduce with the goal of that pair producing dogs with a high percentage of those genetic traits.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> Here is an AKC person giving their opinion on working dogs. I personally hate giving people like this any publicity.


This person is giving her opinion on her breed of choice and how the breed's intended temperament is not suited for IGP. IMO, she is generally accurate in terms of how breeds have been selected for IGP which has shifted their original temperament standard to suit the sport. Early GSDs and Mals were not extreme in prey. They were both developed as herding dogs. Even back in the 1970's, the GSD was different. It was a more balance, hard headed, aggressive dog that didn't have the level of prey drive you see in most of today's working lines.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> This person is giving her opinion on her breed of choice and how the breed's intended temperament is not suited for IGP. IMO, she is generally accurate in terms of how breeds have been selected for IGP which has shifted their original temperament standard to suit the sport. Early GSDs and Mals were not extreme in prey. They were both developed as herding dogs. Even back in the 1970's, the GSD was different. It was a more balance, hard headed, aggressive dog that didn't have the level of prey drive you see in most of today's working lines.


She also advocates that dogs breed for protection work are unpredictable, unreliable and prone to randomly chewing up their handlers.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I heard her say people should do what they want with their dogs and traditional protection breeds like Mals and GSDs tend to be handler aggressive, which I think is way overstated. She also used the term attack dogs which I think is biased and misinformed. I have heard a lot worse. When I started in protection sports I contacted a local AKC person to inquire about local schutzhund training, not knowing any better. The response received was, "Why would you want to train your dog to kill people?"


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I heard her say people should do what they want with their dogs and traditional protection breeds like Mals and GSDs tend to be handler aggressive, which I think is way overstated. She also used the term attack dogs which I think is biased and misinformed. I have heard a lot worse. When I started in protection sports I contacted a local AKC person to inquire about local schutzhund training, not knowing any better. The response received was, "Why would you want to train your dog to kill people?"


It’s interesting. There’s laws about attack dogs here in San Diego. Schutzhund trained dogs are also included specifically in the definition. I agree that it’s a very biased term, one that is emotionally charged.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

the ONLY WAY to STOP this type abuse is MASSIVE $$$$$$ FINES INTO THE THOUSANDS like in US dollar =$100,000 for each first offense per each dog then $500,0000 for next and mandatory 10 year jail time for each first offense per dog then 20 years for next and take everything they own and this to those monsters who call themselves cops that abuse their canine police officers. extreme? not to me-hit all of them abusers HARD.


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