# beyond fed up



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Grim just got kicked out of class! He came in barking and obnoxious again. My van wouldn't start this morning so I had to call for a tow. Took my wife's truck to class but could not take his kennel, so we're sitting in the truck until class is over to talk to the trainer. Good job grim!!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Kicked out for good? Or did the trainer ask you to step out because you were late?

Yikes...not a good day. *deep breath*


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

For good from this class.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

It's YOUR money...ask for it back


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Sounds like you'd be better off finding a new trainer anyway.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not sure of the structure or rules of the class. But it took several classes before my boy stopped carrying on and barking when we arrived at class. I was thankful the trainer worked with me and we started to see acceptable results. I was certainly embarrassed a few times and felt like me and my boy were a distraction...of course the rest of the dogs were behaving.

I would not give up on classes and start to look elsewhere.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Hey - don't blame the dog!!

If the trainer isn't willing to work with you and Grim then you are much better off finding a new trainer!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Was your boy just loud barking or was he acting aggressive to the other dogs/people?

that might make a difference.

I would definitely try to talk to the instructor or someone at the organization about it and see what you can do.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

That's upsetting! But isn't the whole point of any class to help turn behavior issues around? Wouldn't it be more professional for the instructor to guide you towards resolving his issues? 

Funny thing, our training facility has this clause as well, that states "no aggressive dogs allowed". Isn't that in many cases the reason owners look for a trainer?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I know at the training facility that I liked the best where i took Rocket, there were lots of dogs that were barky in the beginning. Including Rocket couple of times towards the end when he was a little older about Jag's age. Our trainers were awesome--they acted like those dogs were the MOST in need of training. The ones that wouldn't settle down, they would put over towards the side of the room, with little gates around and then blankets over the gates so the dogs couldn't see the other dogs, even though we were all in the same room. A lot of that is just age.

I would wait and talk to the trainer privately after class. If you can't work something out, then I would get your money back and find a trainer that realizes that your dog is in need of even more training than one that's behaving already in class.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

In my second class with Delgado (basic obedience) there were FIVE obnoxious barkers out of 9, it was seriously head splitting in a concrete room.

They started with using barriers, to tossing treats at them, toys, nothing worked. Finally after the second class it was down to two, those two continued through all six classes. None of those dogs were kicked out, they worked with the owners and the other owners just ignored the barking. Kicking a dog out for anything less then aggression does not impress me

The trainer should be able to work with you rather then just kick you out. At least get your money back, since it was their decision not yours


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I wouldn't blame Grim, it sounds like this wasn't the best fit for the two of you. 

My last class before I moved to my current training, we were banished to her old whelping room because Gaia was being obnoxious and barking. I would have much rather been asked to leave the class and gotten my money back than locked away and seemingly forgotten about. 

It was like something clicked with my next class, there was no more acting like a fool and she wanted to work as a team. 

Don't give up yet, keep looking. Does your club offer any type of OB training or will the TD work with you one on one in off club hours?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I would think that if it is just noisey barking, they should not kick anyone out; BUT if it is true aggression then the club/instructor have to also worry about the dog biting someone or another dog. Very different thing to me.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I know it's frustrating but Grim isn't a grown trained dog acting up, he's still learning how to behave in different situations. Can't wait to hear what the trainer says.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while barking dogs CAN be obnoxious in a class, I am with Lauri, don't blame the dog.

Sounds like the trainer didn't want to deal with what , I would 'think', is a common occurance with 1st time dogs in a class.

I'd ask for my money back and go elsewhere..Maybe some one on one?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I wasn't offered my money back. He is NOT being aggressive ,just loud . She said she doesn't know how to fix it. I can come early to work him in the empty space and put him up for class or if he can then be quiet he can be in class . She gave me a card for someone else to call to try to fix it. I think he is not old enough or something. Don't correct it? Then how am Isupposed to fix it? Was told she's a great trainer. Used my Christmas money to pay for this too. No he isn't learning when he's like this but I'm at a loss.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She doesn't know how to fix it?????

I would DEMAND your money back. How hard is to teach a dog not to bark. Definitely don't be mad at GRim. He's just being a butthead puppy. I would be furious and disgusted at the trainer!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

They should be giving your money back and I'd find a new trainer. Seriously demand your money back

Doesn't know how to work with a barking dog, sheesh  Next thing she'll say is she can't teach a dog not to wag his tail!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if she doesn't know how to 'fix' it, than in my mind, you have not gotten your money's worth, 

Does the trainer "own" the business?


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Find a new trainer. That would be my suggestion. Don't blame the dog.

Duke was TERRIBLE for our first 2 months of training. He would carry on during any exciting moment (dogs playing with their owners, dogs running during recalls, puppies playing, etc), and he was VERY dog aggressive. I mean to the point he would lunge even at puppies in a distance... and forget it if they brought out a small white dog. He'd lose it.

However, THAT is why I was there! My trainer worked us through it. Duke learned what was acceptable and what wasn't. He also learned, if he wanted to have fun.... He needed to work for it and be a team player. Not an idiot barking and carrying on the whole time. Almost a year later.... I can sit in the middle of the training group with dogs all around us doing all sorts of things... and Duke doesn't make a peep. I can walk him next to dogs on our walks or even public events.... nothing. His ears and eyes are on me.

Now I am starting all over again with Storm. She's a handful. She's got a big mouth, a big attitude, and she's got enough energy to light up the city of Orlando. We spend our time focusing this power of hers into obedience, tracking, and protection. That's her outlet. Once she's been mentally and physically worked.... she's like a normal(ish) puppy and we work on socializing her around the different situations. At this point, she is now able to slow down and take everything in with time. That is how she works.

If you are paying someone to help you with your dog and train your dog... they should be up to the challenge. They should be able to understand your dogs needs, and find ways to best work with him. If not, you need to find a better trainer who IS willing to start from square one and work with your dog as an individual and not like he's the same as all the others. Honestly, he sounds like a normal puppy who is just WAY too excited about the change in his environment. There's a way to work through that... just need to find the right trainer.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Do you take Grim out and about for socialization? Perhaps he needs more trips to petsmart, lowes etc to get used to other dogs. 

Can you find a trainer used to german shepherds. I have found they generally have more knowledge for gsd issues. 

With Max as a pup, he would bark, so I would always get his attention on walks and give him "a project", sit, heel , focus..and ignore the other dog. Then we would continue on. I took him someplace everyday of his young puppy hood and he now attends class three times a week. He never barks any more even if another dog is going off like an idiot. 

Get a class you like..get out and about a ton..and have lots of perserverance.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Is Grim focusing on you at all, or just barking his head off at nothing? Can you recapture his focus and get him to look at you then give him a "quiet" command?
I mean...in class, is he not able to return his focus to you? If he's just barking to be barking and unable to be distracted, that could be a problem I'm sure.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I guess I'm the odd man out but while I think the trainer should make an effort, I also believe the trainer has an obligation to the rest of the class.

I was in a class with a lady who had zero control (not implying anything to do with you Jag) of her little mop dog. After about four classes I was about ready to quit because that woman was taking up all kinds of time and not doing what the instructor told her. She left and I didn't know if she got kicked out or just quit but the rest of us were relieved. 

We are not there and can't see what Grim is doing and maybe this is not the right person.

Anyway I hope you find someone who can help and they are out there.


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## Crazee4gsds (Jan 23, 2013)

Sorry to hear they didn't offer you your $$$ back and that it was your Christmas money. I would definitely ask for it back and in fact insist upon it especially since the trainer stated to you they don't know how to fix his barking. Sounds like it's the trainer's problem...not Grim's. Probably isn't the right trainer/class for you anyway.


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## OffgridAlex (Dec 11, 2012)

What a pathetic trainer. 

If everyone had perfectly behaved angel dogs then they wouldn't need to pay a crook like him for 'dog training' 

Kicking a dog out of dog training for not being well enough trained is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. That jerk should be ashamed.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Jag, I brought up the "aggressive" clause in our puppy class contract. I didn't mean to imply that Grim was aggressive, I was saying that any training facility should be able to direct people to a good trainer who's experienced with all kinds of issues. Just to clarify.  

I got a glimpse of what my potential future with Dex could look like during our first class. Same whining, barking, attention seeking.... I feel your pain. And the frustrating part is when you have a dog that acts out in one particular setting and you have no way of correcting the behavior prior to class.


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## lilLostduckie (Jan 22, 2013)

If he was being constantly disruptive, etc., I can see why the trainer may ask you to leave or whatnot, but she should offer you some private training or something. 

As an ex-trainer for Petsmart, you are entitled to a refund, because servies were not completely rendered. They may insist that you pay for the classes you DID attend, e.g. if you paid 110 and went to 2 classes out of 8, just divide it out evenly, but they do not have a legal right to refuse a refund, ESPECIALLY since you were asked to leave, not voluntarily.

I have only been to one training class so far, and Willa was def disruptive, rambunctious, etc., and I was SO embarrassed! But the fact was, as the trainer pointed out, that is typically puppy behavior. That is what you are there to learn about, and hopefully find some solutions for. 

Good luck!


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I see you are in Ohio, probably not in my part, though. If you were, I go to a great GSD trainer just East of Cincinnati.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Depending on the class and the curriculum (what its centered towards) many classes aren't so that people deal with "problem" dogs. Most training classes are to teach the dog simple commands and not work on their socialization issues. Although at his young age the trainer should've really worked through this issue with the pup.

I'm with Jack's dad...I know everyone is outraged, but you really have to think of the other dogs and PAYING customers as well. It's not fair for the trainer to concentrate on Grim for 30 minutes and give the other people the rest of the time (whatever it may be).

Does this training facility have any other classes you can take? Maybe something smaller? Like 2 or 3 dogs...possibly one on one work for a while until he is comfortable enough to work with other dogs.

To everyone bashing the trainer...its quite hard to teach one dog not to be that excited while trying to teach the rest of the class sits and downs. I know this trainer was recommended to the OP by the local Schuthzund club that OP plans to attend and I'm still trying to figure out why the club doesn't offer anything for young dogs.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess I'm the odd man out but while I think the trainer should make an effort, I also believe the trainer has an obligation to the rest of the class.


I agree with you here as it really isn't fair to the rest of the class. BUT - the instructor should have provide the OP with additional options. 

We had a Pitty that was scared of it's own shadow and would come up the leash at the instructor. She pulled him from the class, but she offered him a discount with one on one classes and he had the option to prorate what he had remaining due to him and either get reimbursed or put it towards one on one classes. 

She made him this offer in front of the entire class, after the Pitt came up the leash at her.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess I'm the odd man out but while I think the trainer should make an effort, I also believe the trainer has an obligation to the rest of the class.
> 
> I was in a class with a lady who had zero control (not implying anything to do with you Jag) of her little mop dog. After about four classes I was about ready to quit because that woman was taking up all kinds of time and not doing what the instructor told her. She left and I didn't know if she got kicked out or just quit but the rest of us were relieved.
> 
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, as I already said there were five loud obnoxious barkers in a class Delgado and I attended

But it's a group class NOT a private class, each person who signed up knows there is more then one other dog who may or may not have issues. Unless the dog is aggressive there should be no reason for that dog to be kicked out

If you have a problem with another dog then you can ask to switch to another class or get a refund towards private training. They have just as much right as you do you be there


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think, ya know, the trainer isn't doing it, the class isn't making it, he's a big puppy who barks, but still a slow maturing puppy, best for the trainer to say I am not able to help you, here is the refund/remainder of the class fees. I think it's "okay" to kick someone out, but...have an understanding and some compassion of how that impacts them monetarily. That would be a thing for me. 

I have been in classes with particularly barky dogs who couldn't stop, and they had to go to special classes.  They couldn't rejoin the class until they stopped with the mouth. I wonder if she would do that for you (or if it's even worth it).

Now I am going to be the crazy clicker lady and recommend checking out to see if there is a Karen Pryor trainer nearby - it's in that thread you started to help someone else. They are looking at your dog in a more positive, solution focused manner. What motivates them, etc. 

Check out Denise Fenzi's blog - I think it's just her name.com for some good information on training sport dogs. 

Rough day, yick.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I love clickers to get barky dogs to focus. I am house sitting one now that barks like a maniac at petsmart. I took my clicker and treats and hung out for about two hours. He was able to walk around and not embarrass ourselves finally! We will be doing this all week!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jack's Dad and Martemchik, you have valid points. But as someone mentioned, at the least they should offer a refund minus classes attended. If I'm recalling correctly, Jag has only gone to two. Refusing to refund the money when THEY'RE asking her to leave is unacceptable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess I'm the odd man out but while I think the trainer should make an effort, I also believe the trainer has an obligation to the rest of the class.


I agree. It was the "don't know how to fix it" that got me. If he was asked to leave then he should be refunded his money. That is simply good business practice...word of mouth and all.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> Jack's Dad and Martemchik, you have valid points. But as someone mentioned, at the least they should offer a refund minus classes attended. If I'm recalling correctly, Jag has only gone to two. Refusing to refund the money when THEY'RE asking her to leave is unacceptable.


Oh that is for sure crazy. I've never heard of that happening. A refund should be offered since the class doesn't work for the dog. I don't know how big the facility is or what not, but most of the training facilities around me offer a variety of classes once they figure out a dog has issues. This is clearly something OP couldn't see coming...the dog has only been worked at home and one on one, so of course this came as a surprise and should be dealt with properly. Even if a private class is more expensive it might be more bang for the buck and they should just carry the prorated amount over to those classes. Actually...I wouldn't even prorate it, just give the OP and the dog some private classes...a little good PR and building a relationship with someone goes a long way in our world.

After this incident I'm sure OP would never recommend this trainer to anyone, but if they had offered some private lessons instead OP would probably scream from the mountain tops how great the trainer is that they did that once they realized they couldn't work Grim in a class setting.


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

I understand the trainer needs to balance his/her obligation to Grim with his/her obligation to all the other dogs and it's a tough position I guess because if s/he dedicated time to get Grim to calm down it'd take time away from the other dogs. 
It was definitely handled poorly. If time allowed, I'd try turn it into a learning experience and show everyone what to do when your dog acts up. It was lame of them to simply kick him out. I would have maybe given him a time out and given him his session afterwards when he calmed down or at least tried to show you things you could do to curb that behavior. From the sounds of it they're in it more for the money than for the dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I agree the money should be refunded, at least for the remaining classes.

I also agree with Jax that for goodwill, it would probably be best to just refund the full amount.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't mean the full amount. I meant for the remainder of the classes + any classes that he was asked to leave and did not benefit from due to that. If he was there for 3 classes, the entire class, without incident then there should be no refund for that. In all fairness.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

OK, now that I'm FINALLY home I can address some of this. I had to stop a couple times on the way, so was able to post a little on my phone. 

FIRST- I don't blame the trainer. I paid, so did everyone else. He's being VERY disruptive. He got better during the last class, but this time we were in there less than 2 minutes before she said "I don't think this is the right class for him". Because of the barking and vocalization. When I tried to correct him for it, he kept barking but looked at me barking. He wasn't pleased. So I asked if I should correct him for it or not. She said 'no' because he was getting even more worked up. So I'm still not sure what to do about it. 

SECOND- she then said (after) to take him on the other side and keep moving away from the class until he settled. He did a little. He managed to pay attention for a few seconds here and there to do the 'sit, stand, down'. That was about it. I took him back outside, wondering if he had to poo. He was jumping around, grabbing the leash, and barking outside, too. If you want to see what it looks like, give your puppy some Red Bull. That's it. He wasn't fed before either class. I had treats he likes. I couldn't get him to pay attention to me at all. He was just jumping around barking and grabbing the leash. Period. I couldn't hear her, so I'm sure no one else could either. Not fair to everyone else who paid to be in that class and had their dogs under control. 

THIRD- she told me I could come to classes with him an hour early and use the empty side to work with him. If after that hour when class started he could be quiet, we could continue. If not, I can put him in his kennel and attend the classes myself to at least learn what to do for the class work. She also gave me a card of another trainer to contact that she thinks might be able to work on his overly excited "I can't concentrate" issue. 

FOURTH-when I took him to the club, he didn't do this. When I took him to Bass Pro (yes, he saw other dogs there) he didn't do this. It isn't aggression, and it's not towards the dogs. It's literally barking at the air. :crazy: So I've had a VERY hard time correcting this, because I haven't been able to capture it anywhere else. Yes, he'll do it outside... but that's outside. At the beginning of a walk he's very vocal. Not always barking, but making all kinds of noises (sounds like a monkey at times) until we've walked long enough to get some of that energy out. 

Next post to continue this...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I didn't mean the full amount. I meant for the remainder of the classes + any classes that he was asked to leave and did not benefit from due to that. If he was there for 3 classes, the entire class, without incident then there should be no refund for that. In all fairness.


Well, whatever the heck you said I agree. You know how I always agree with you.

Jag, can you get someone at the club to observe what he's doing?
They should be able to help.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Both times I've driven up there now, weather has been a HUGE factor. Today, just to add to the fun, my van was dead. I had to call a tow and the shop to get them to look at it. My 'beast' isn't able to be driven, either. So I had to take my wife's truck (thankfully she was at home!) so he had to ride in the back seat and not in his kennel. So I had to miss the class because I couldn't just put him out in his kennel. So we've made it through ONE class. It's a 2 hour drive each way. Today, the weather made the streets horrible. I probably shouldn't have even attempted to make the drive, but I did. 

Whenever we stopped (to give him a drink and try to get him to poo) he'd start the same jumping around and barking at the air so I couldn't get him to potty, either. He did pee there a few times, though. Either he's just too young, or it's time to start with some serious corrections. I don't know which. I'm kind of ticked that he barks at me (again... he had stopped) when he's corrected. He's a very strong dominant dog who wants things his way. He's not shy about telling you when he's unhappy with something. THAT I thought I had under control. Guess not. He was born that way. The breeder noted it before he was even sent to me, so it's got nothing to do with me giving him back a toy, either. I went back and forth from the prong to the martingale. Didn't make any difference. 

I guess what I'll probably do is go to the classes and train him on my own. If he's not ready to concentrate and be 'with' me, then maybe I just need to give it time. I never expected this much from my pups in the past. I worked with them, but didn't push. I didn't use prongs or correction until they were over a year old. I didn't expect them to give me too much focus or attention until they were adults. I did things different with him, and it's all going sideways. It could all just be me. My other shepherds learned. They didn't heel while looking at me, but if I changed direction they knew I was doing it and went right with me. I'd see them keep glancing at my leg... just watching to see where I was. So maybe I had it right the first time. If I can figure out from class and others how to get him to look at me while heeling, that's great. He did fine at the club. He wasn't all focus, but he wasn't mouthing off, either.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well, whatever the heck you said I agree. You know how I always agree with you.
> 
> Jag, can you get someone at the club to observe what he's doing?
> They should be able to help.


There is a guy in the class who is also in the club. So he's seen Grim do it in class, and NOT do it at the club. I did manage to ask him today "any suggestions?" and he said "It just takes time." Well, Grim's pretty much out of time in the class.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

How much exercise is this pup getting?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, Grim needs more exercise. He rides for 2 hours and then can't contain himself when it's time to train in a structured environment. Hopefully we'll get a break in the weather and driving won't be an issue. I have cancelled training 3 times in the past two weeks because it just isn't worth getting stuck (2 hour drive for me too)
I wonder if your trainer will credit your $ with another future class after Grim matures a bit.

As far as 'training' I would just work on engagement, focus, some positions and don't worry about any heeling yet. He's not ready and it isn't fair to ask that of him. And keep the sessions very short end it on a fun note. Crate him as soon as his session is over so he can process what he just did.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I dunno about the exercise...my instructor told me to exercise my boy before classes because he was very energetic as well...but all that ended up happening was that he got even more amped for the class and somehow had more energy...even after running around and chasing a ball for a half an hour or more. It's crazy how far you're driving for lessons though lol and I'm not sure if you'll be able to get there earlier or not.

The weather doesn't help either right now...we just don't have the daylight to do a lot of training after work and as bitter cold as it has been I don't really want to be outside either.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish during training, I'd guess.

Go up the extra hour early, run his behind off and maybe he'll calm down enough to learn something?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

What I would do is basically above, but a little different.

I'm assuming the training room is empty the hour prior to class? I dont know how physically "fit" you are, but I'll tell you I've seen this work..

Take him up there the hour early, put a prong collar on him, (Hope you can use one there),,and just walk the room, continuously for one hour, don't talk to him, don't acknowledge him unless he's quiet and in a 'spot' (heel spot) that you want him in.

I took a class with Masi and started with a beginners, the majority of people in it, had uncontrollable dogs that had never seen a leash, the trainer had us walk that room for the entire one hour of class in silence UNLESS our dogs were in a heel position and then praise (probably an old koehler thing since she was a somewhat koehler based trainer)..

As the weeks went on, the "walking" was reduced,,we'd walk, we'd train. I will tell you, the rambunctious big mouths were usually pretty worn out at the end of those "walks" LOL..(of course Masi wasn't, but then again she wasn't a big mouth)

So, that is what I would try, since it doesn't sound like they are willing to give you your money back.

Just a note to, his constant 'barking', sounds like BIG frustration to me, releasing the frustration by barking. 

I would take advantage of the building while it's empty ,


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Maybe. I have a REALLY hard time getting up in the morning!  However, next week we'll be there an hour early and see if that works. I'm just sooo confused over what route to go with him!  He has energy ALL the time. He rode 2 hours to the club, then sat in the van in his kennel for awhile and was brought out last. He didn't act like this. So I don't think that is really going to be the answer. 

I've been told two things. One- he needs to mature, and don't expect so much. Two- don't let him get away with things, make sure he knows I'm in charge and make him behave. They kind of go against each other. He learns fast. He works well at home. He was calm and well behaved at Bass Pro. He didn't get any exercise before we went there, either.  He barked and jumped around outside, but once we went in he was great. The entire time, and we were there more than two hours. 

Lisa has seen him in person. I really hope she'll chime in here. I'd happily pay for private lessons. He didn't seem too much different than other dogs at the club. No one there told me they thought he was a maniac or had anything negative at all to say about him. The trainer seemed surprised about that. She asked if I'd taken him out like she'd suggested last time. I told her I'd taken him to Bass Pro for a couple hours and he was fine. She looked confused. I get that... I'm confused. I've always taken him out. If I can take him somewhere with me, I do. We don't go every day, because to take him in anywhere it's at least a 20 minute drive each way. There is NOTHING in this little farm town to take him to. With it being winter, we're not able to go to the state parks in Toledo. No one would be out there, anyway. 

As far as exercise goes, I walk him as much as I can stand. Sometimes it's a half hour, sometimes it's an hour or more. Walking doesn't curb his energy long. Nothing does. Did I mention that I've seen him close his eyes less than FIVE times since I've had him? Even then, it was short lived. He's just an energizer bunny puppy. I've never seen anything like it!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree he probably needs to mature, but I also agree he needs to learn to keep his big yap shut when it's inappropriate

Maybe it's the "place"? Some dogs act like morons in certain places and angels in others..

When I say "walk", I mean power walk like your on a mission..(And believe me when I did this I was DEAD after an hour!) 

Try it and see if it works, in the meantime keep taking him as much as you can ..

I had a gsd who I swear was the only darn dog that I NEVER saw as a puppy take a nap..this dog was non stop 24/7 and if she lay down, she had one eye open ready to go.. I must say she turned out to be one of the best dogs I ever had


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My dog still lays and will close his eyes, but will be up on his feet the moment I move. Not an issue there. But he does need to mature a little. I don't know how you want to correct him but if my dog ever barked straight at me because of something, he'd get the business end of a correction...even at 6 months old. I don't know exactly what it means, some will tell you no respect, others will tell you he's just excited, but I don't think its ever acceptable to bark at the handler.

I know you're having a hard time balancing correcting him and not trying to squash his drive...but if he's going to not allow you to train him it might be time to try something different? By the way...I had this problem as well, and although I might've corrected my boy a few too many times he's just fine and a wonderful obedience/agility dog.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Diane- yes the building is empty then. I didn't ask for my money back- just to be fair. I want to learn what she's teaching in this class. Even if that means Grim sits in the van. I like how she teaches. I can't emphasize enough that I don't blame her at all. My frustration is NOT aimed at her. I wish that she was able to tell me what to do with him to make it stop, though. I'd rather that she told me honestly "I don't know" than to give me a line of bull, though. Sometimes, you just don't know. I've been training dogs since I was 8. I'm at a loss. Being that he's my dog... I can see how she isn't sure how to fix it. 

This is how I feel right now. :headbang: I literally got a migraine from all of this. I talked to Grim most of the way home. Of course, he isn't giving up why he's acting like this, either. :shrug: 

I'm not physically fit. At all. When I get my new back brace and knee braces, that will help some. However, I still get my fat rear end out there and walk him and work with him. Even when it's colder than snot and it's snowing and blowing. He doesn't care what the weather is. I will try to get my wife to do a video of the 'beginning' of a walk. That will give you guys a glimpse of what he's doing in class. It's almost like he's got a split personality or something, LOL. Maybe there's something about that building he doesn't like. He does want to watch what the other dogs are doing, but he's not allowed to. Yes, he's frustrated at a few things. One, he is frustrated about being corrected. He wants things HIS way. Two, he's frustrated that he's not allowed to go investigate everything. Same reason. Three, he's frustrated that he's on lead at all. The helper pointed that out at the club. Grim would much rather be off lead. However, I can't trust him off lead, and it's not allowed there anyway. Yes, pinch collars are allowed there, and encouraged if your dog is pulling or acting unruly on the lead.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> When I say "walk", I mean power walk like your on a mission..(And believe me when I did this I was DEAD after an hour!)
> 
> Try it and see if it works, in the meantime keep taking him as much as you can ..


This. 
My daughter walks her GSD pup and lets him loose so he can run and he'll run back and forth to her and then go "explore", then run back, then explore, etc. so he gets worn out.
If not, he's a maniac, and he's a regular ol' "pet line"


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I would work him under threshold, at a distance from dogs and people where he doesn't react. A group class is really not the place for a reactive dog. Jag I AM NOT SAYING HE'S NERVY OR AGGRESSIVE! I am just saying that he IS reacting to the the dogs/people in class, even if its a "hey you, come here I wanna sniff you" reaction. Work him at a distance where he still has a brain and gradually move closer. If I remember correctly you had a post on here whet he was was barking at someone to get attention and you asked them to come pet him? If I'm remembering correctly than you rewarded that behaviour. Clearly he i a smart dog with a good amount of resolve and isn't just going to drop a behaviour that worked a few times in the past. This isn't a huge deal, you'll get past it, a few private lessons with someone to show you how to keep him under threshold I think would be a great idea. Then you can work back up into being in a class environment.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

When my boy had his 'out of body experiences' at the start of class I started arriving 30 minutes early to class, luckily it was empty and I had permission. We would fast pace this room, zig zag, used the wall for heel, sit, down, then face paced around the room again. I also ignored him, only gave him commands. I found that he started to search my face for a reaction and started to give me more focus.

I would also let him sniff the perimeter of the room which also helped him...he got the lay of the land, if you will & would start to relax. As the dogs & owners started to arrive he became less and less vocal...but it did take time. We both have always enjoyed classes that were outdoors...we both always seemed to be more relaxed.

Good luck to you...there is certainly not a lack of effort on your part. 

How about a picture of Grim?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't know if I can power walk, but I do know I can try. Over a year ago, my doc bumped my prednisone dose up. I gained about 60 pounds in 30 days. I can't lose it. Mainly, because I can't exercise enough to lose it because of my health issues. I NEED to lose it, though. I found part of the answer recently when reviewing my labs, but I still haven't found a doctor here to do anything about it. It's all a work in progress. I took his tug, too. He acted like I didn't have it. Oh, and every single walk Grim tries to turn into a 'power walk'. He likes to go FAST. Of course, he's nose down the whole time, but he's on a mission. 

When I correct him, it's a prong correction. Yes, he does bark and/or vocalize at me for it. Not always. As I said, I thought I had that fixed. He just told me today that I did not, in fact, have that fixed. So then what? I keep giving prong corrections until he stops? I do NOT like that he's doing this. I think it's something that has to stop, and needs to stop right now. I know he thinks he walks on water. I don't really care. I do think he grabs the leash because he doesn't want me to be in control. This is not something I think is OK. Just wanted to put that out there... in case all of this talk of 'my prince' leads anyone to think that I'd allow this. His breeder said there's nothing that I could do to make him fold. I do believe her on this. So I'm not afraid that something bad will happen to him (harming him) if he's corrected, or even corrected strongly. 

I feel better hearing that there have been other pups who didn't sleep. I have never seen this before, and it was starting to freak me out. I have to remove everything from his kennel before bed so he has nothing to do in there overnight to get him to sleep. He's incredible.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would love to meet this dog!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Kinda sounds like Zefra..... LOL..... have you seen my training videos? I can post to make you feel better.... LOL.

Will respond later with what worked for Zefra and me (still does this but it is now managed.. lol).


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

KristiM said:


> I would work him under threshold, at a distance from dogs and people where he doesn't react. A group class is really not the place for a reactive dog. Jag I AM NOT SAYING HE'S NERVY OR AGGRESSIVE! I am just saying that he IS reacting to the the dogs/people in class, even if its a "hey you, come here I wanna sniff you" reaction. Work him at a distance where he still has a brain and gradually move closer. If I remember correctly you had a post on here whet he was was barking at someone to get attention and you asked them to come pet him? If I'm remembering correctly than you rewarded that behaviour. Clearly he i a smart dog with a good amount of resolve and isn't just going to drop a behaviour that worked a few times in the past. This isn't a huge deal, you'll get past it, a few private lessons with someone to show you how to keep him under threshold I think would be a great idea. Then you can work back up into being in a class environment.


No, I understand what you're saying. Here's the problem, though. Class is the only place (other than outside with NO ONE around) that he's done this. When out other places, he 'sees' dogs, but doesn't vocalize. They've been far away and up close. Same with people. He doesn't go up to them to be petted anymore. Yes, one day at my daughter's college when he was much younger I did this, but never again. He doesn't even care anymore. So I'm not sure what "threshold" I'm trying to stay under.  If he was being reactive, wouldn't he have done this in the crowded store where a few dogs just 'popped up' out of nowhere?? Wouldn't he do it when we see dogs and people out on walks? My brother in law and nephew came over unexpectedly over the weekend. They came in the house. My brother in law had never met him. Grim happened to be crated, and was whining. My wife let him out. He went up to both, gave a lick, then blew past them to go outside. I'm so confused!!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I would love to meet this dog!


You will, unless he gets us kicked out of the club (before we're even 'in' to boot!)



elisabeth_00117 said:


> Kinda sounds like Zefra..... LOL..... have you seen my training videos? I can post to make you feel better.... LOL.
> 
> Will respond later with what worked for Zefra and me (still does this but it is now managed.. lol).


No, I haven't seen your videos. I'd like to, though!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Track him before you train ob(even when you aren't going up to the trainer), we do it at club and it does help the pups to get out some mental exercise. Puts them in a better frame of mind.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't know how to teach him that yet. Lisa was going to show me when the weather breaks. I have a book, but she said she starts them and then goes to the method in the book.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Your looking at my "reactive" comment the wrong way. I'm saying he is reacting to the class environment by barking and vocalizing. (Not every time a dog reacts is it out of agression or nerves etc, its just a reaction) What im suggesting is to work him at a distance that is below the "threshold" that gets him vocalizing. I have seen quite a few GSDs that do this, maybe I'm right out of it or misreading your posts.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm thinking I would like to meet this terror to He does sound like a ball of fire just ready to go (and heck I love a challenge).

Wish I was closer

Is there anyone in the class that you know? that could maybe meet up with you that hour early, and let them run their butts off?? THAT,I'm thinking would drain off some of that pent up energy..


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

KristiM said:


> Your looking at my "reactive" comment the wrong way. I'm saying he is reacting to the class environment by barking and vocalizing. (Not every time a dog reacts is it out of agression or nerves etc, its just a reaction) What im suggesting is to work him at a distance that is below the "threshold" that gets him vocalizing. I have seen quite a few GSDs that do this, maybe I'm right out of it or misreading your posts.


OK, isn't that what the trainer had me do, though? She had me take him to the other side of the building (there are two 'sides' in this training building that are only separated by a blue plastic 'fence' that you can't see through). Once I had him over there, he wasn't barking as much, but was still vocalizing on and off and let out a few barks. That was when we went through the 'sit, stand, down' commands a few times. I tried 'here' (with the leash on) but lost him at that point attention wise. Then he was running all over, smelling everything and went to the door...so I took him back outside. Oh, when he was barking, etc. over there... he wasn't even looking in the direction of where the other dogs were 99% of the time. Just at the air. Oy!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm thinking I would like to meet this terror to He does sound like a ball of fire just ready to go (and heck I love a challenge).
> 
> Wish I was closer
> 
> Is there anyone in the class that you know? that could maybe meet up with you that hour early, and let them run their butts off?? THAT,I'm thinking would drain off some of that pent up energy..


LOL, there are a few that have said that! It is too bad, because the more experienced people that could see him in person the better I think. No, I don't know anyone in the class. There is one guy that's also a club member, but I don't really know him so I don't feel like I could ask him to bring his dogs in to do that. I do think that bringing a ball to throw for him for awhile before class might be a good thing, too.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Some may disagree,but this shows a lack of the instructor's skill to me.If she couldn't fix it then she should have given you your money back. A lot of trainers offer some type of grace period for you to get a refund.



Jag said:


> He is NOT being aggressive ,just loud . She said she doesn't know how to fix it.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Jag said:


> OK, isn't that what the trainer had me do, though? She had me take him to the other side of the building (there are two 'sides' in this training building that are only separated by a blue plastic 'fence' that you can't see through). Once I had him over there, he wasn't barking as much, but was still vocalizing on and off and let out a few barks. That was when we went through the 'sit, stand, down' commands a few times. I tried 'here' (with the leash on) but lost him at that point attention wise. Then he was running all over, smelling everything and went to the door...so I took him back outside. Oh, when he was barking, etc. over there... he wasn't even looking in the direction of where the other dogs were 99% of the time. Just at the air. Oy!


Okay yes, sorry I kinda skimmed through. That is what working below threshold is. Honestly I just finished reading control unleashed by Leslie mcdevitt and its completely changed the way im handling havoc. The book is specifically about this kind of behaviour. My friend read it too (her GSD actually sounds A LOT like grim!) and we have both seen a ton of progress working through some of the exercises in this book. I keep thinking man if I had only read this book when havoc was a puppy, I would have a much better relationship with him and a much more balanced dog!

ETA: I don't know WTH there's that thumbs down thing at the top, didn't mean to add it and can't seem to get rid of it lol.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the instructor was trying to be fair to the other class participants. A dog that is disruptive is usually asked to take some private instruction instead of group. The only thing I'd think of doing to keep them in the class is set up some barriers and work off to the side, but Grim would probably still be ramped up, and the barking would take away from the others trying to focus on the lessons.
In Leslie McDevitts book Control Unleashed there is a paragraph or two on what to look for in dismissing dogs from a CU class....Having 6 Grims in one CU class would be a recipe for disaster! But 2 or 3 Grims and a few quieter dogs may work. I'd actually get the CU book and work on some of the exercises outlined. It may not help right now with immature brain, but will help in handling/managing him in the future.
Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

There is a CU puppy book too! Haven't read it yet though...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Kristi- thanks for clearing that up! I'm not confused about that now. I was trying to find time to locate my kindle in the boxes in the garage to get that book. I guess I'll order it anyway and use my wife's Fire now because she traded her ipod for and ipad mini...so it frees up the kindle fire.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I think the instructor was trying to be fair to the other class participants. A dog that is disruptive is usually asked to take some private instruction instead of group. The only thing I'd think of doing to keep them in the class is set up some barriers and work off to the side, but Grim would probably still be ramped up, and the barking would take away from the others trying to focus on the lessons.
> In Leslie McDevitts book Control Unleashed there is a paragraph or two on what to look for in dismissing dogs from a CU class....Having 6 Grims in one CU class would be a recipe for disaster! But 2 or 3 Grims and a few quieter dogs may work. I'd actually get the CU book and work on some of the exercises outlined. It may not help right now with immature brain, but will help in handling/managing him in the future.
> Welcome to Dogwise.com


Thanks for the link. I agree. He was being totally disruptive. He got better as time went on during the last class, though. He's the only one in there being this way... but still. I'm wondering if she didn't get some complaints after last time, though, because I had JUST taken my coat off when she told us that it wasn't the 'right class' for Grim. I think that the decision was made before we got there.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi, since you're new to our area I want to let you know about the fenced in dog park a Riverbend park in Findlay. I seldom go when anyone else is there, but it's a great place to just let her run. The walking paths near it are all paved for days when there are other dogs there. Just thought I'd let you know in case Grim needs to blow off steam and run. pm me if you want more information.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> Hi, since you're new to our area I want to let you know about the fenced in dog park a Riverbend park in Findlay. I seldom go when anyone else is there, but it's a great place to just let her run. The walking paths near it are all paved for days when there are other dogs there. Just thought I'd let you know in case Grim needs to blow off steam and run. pm me if you want more information.


I don't do dog parks, but it sounds like a good place to take him to work around distractions (outside of the actual park). THANKS! I will look up where it's at specifically.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I would love to meet this dog!


Yes! That's why I wanted to see a picture of this rascal! lol


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

It's pretty isolated this time of the year, so he could work off excess energy by running when it's empty. The Blanchard Valley Grain Co-op allow dogs in also, it's a handy place to socialize. Plus we haven't found anywhere with cheaper prices, online or local. We have several other local parks with great walking trails.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Courtney said:


> Yes! That's why I wanted to see a picture of this rascal! lol


This is the last pic I posted of him, in his new agitation collar.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread but is he highly toy motivated? A tug? Ball on a string? Now that rogue is a bit older (puppy wise) treats don't cut it around high distractions or excitement. She needs her ball. If he is motivated by that do some obedience with the ball/tug as a reward. It burns energy quickly also. Use it to keep focus on you in short spurts and reward with games of tug. Hopefully the game of tug with you will be a higher value reward than barking his head off. You can start this at a distance from the rest of the group and work closer as he learns to behave himself until you are fully integrated into the class. 


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had his tug. He's 100% zoned out during this.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

II think you need to find a new trainer. I want to give advice but it's hard over the Internet. You need an experienced trainer to evaluate what's going on and then decide if maybe it's time for a good correction or if going another way would better suit him. 


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, too much to read in this thread but Sam used to grab his leash when he was a puppy... My trainer said it was over arousal. He's just worked up so I don't think he's trying to take control in that way. Is there any way you can drop the lead or let it loose so that tugging at it isn't fun anymore?


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I know exactly how you feel, Hex was just like it. We didn't get kicked out of class, I decided to leave because I just got frustrated and angry and the trainer was not very helpful and all the other people were making nasty comments about the "neurotic dangerous shepherd"

To be honest I think you are trying to hard - I don't mean this in a nasty way, you said yourself that with you other dogs where you weren't trying to do everything "right" you didn't have those issues.
You've decided Grim is going to be the dog where you will do everything by the book and "perfect". It will happen - but give it time  

I was wanting Hex to be the perfect obedience dog, I want him to learn tracking and a few other things - so I got REALLY stressed when things seemed to be going from bad to worse. 
I left class in tears several times because I felt like I was doing everything wrong and that I was wrecking a good dog.
Now I think it's very much a maturity thing. Hex is a year old now and I have just been doing "fun" stuff with him at home with the odd bit of "serious" work thrown in when he doesn't notice. I think I'm just about ready to attempt another class with him 
Don't get too down on yourself or Grim. He's still a pup even tho he doesn't look like it.
I've read quite a few obedience/schutzhund books recently - all of them mention that some dogs are just not up for "full on serious" training till they a year old.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't plan on going to another trainer. I just have to decide, I guess, which I'm going to do. My first instinct (knowing Grim) is to correct him. Not because he's barking, but because he's blowing me off and giving me a piece of his mind when I do correct him. I do have good breeder support behind him, as well. I already know what she'll say, lol. I'm also hoping to get input on this from the club person.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Carriesue said:


> Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, too much to read in this thread but Sam used to *grab his leash* when he was a puppy... My trainer said it was over arousal. He's just worked up so I don't think he's trying to take control in that way. Is there any way you can drop the lead or let it loose *so that tugging at it isn't fun anymore? ?????? *





For behavior like this- why not just teach the dog "NO", or "Leave It" - and if he asks for a reason, just tell him - "Because I said so!".


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> For behavior like this- why not just teach the dog "NO", or "Leave It" - and if he asks for a reason, just tell him - "Because I said so!".


Which is what we're working on. I let it go when he was younger. He's not younger now. I picked my battles, and at that time it wasn't that important. Now it is. 

Mooch- I do believe you're right. I changed pretty much everything I did with raising shepherds when it came to Grim. No good has come from it. I'm going back to what worked.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Jag said:


> I don't plan on going to another trainer. I just have to decide, I guess, which I'm going to do. My first instinct (knowing Grim) is to correct him. Not because he's barking, but because he's blowing me off and giving me a piece of his mind when I do correct him. I do have good breeder support behind him, as well. I already know what she'll say, lol. I'm also hoping to get input on this from the club person.



Maybe try a GOOD correction. You might be surprised how easily it solves the problem. This is my first working puppy. I was so worried I would squash her drive or ruin her I let her get away with murder. Re direct re direct, bleeding hands. I still have scars from the land shark phase lol. But she wanted to chase and bite my daughter. I tried everything. Finally my training director basically said its time for a correction. And if my "correction" amped her up more, than it wasn't a strong enough correction for her while she was in drive. I set her up to fail by having my daughter walk swiftly past her, She went to jump and bite and i gave her one strong correction, on a prong. She took it, stopped, looked at me and was like oh! So you don't want me to do that?! Ok.. We played some tug and it never happened again. 

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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think this is a HUGE part of the problem. I only thought he'd become more respectful. Part of my brain says 7 months is too young to correct, BUT he's not my other shepherds. They NEVER would have barked at me for a correction, nor did they have the audacity to blow me off. I don't know if it's so much that he *can't* focus on me with distraction (where even food in his face gets no reaction because THAT is more interesting) or if it's just that he doesn't WANT to pay attention so he's ignoring me. Believe me, he *is* ignoring me, too. When he wants to work, he does so beautifully. When he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't. That's always been his personality, so I guess I wonder why I'm even caught between the two? I do believe it is time that Mr. Grim learned just who is in charge here. THEN I think he can learn better manners and obedience. Since he thinks he's in charge, I can't teach him unless he's 'ready'... which in my 'old training world' would be total 

I have never been an unfair handler. My corrections were appropriate and earned. I had instituted some changes that were recommended at the club. I took him out and he behaved. He totally snowed me, I think. I guess I shouldn't be putting up with the jumping around, barking, and grabbing the leash and pulling at the beginning of the walks and dismissing it as "he needs to blow off some energy". It should be "that is NEVER allowed". So tomorrow we'll change back to 'the original factory settings' and see if that helps. Since on leash is where 99% of his bad behaviors happen, I believe that's where I need to start. I got hung up on some 'let him be a puppy' things. OK, he's been a puppy. Now he's becoming a young dog. Time's up, I think. Can't wait to hear what Lisa's advice is, though.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jag, I'm not nearly as experienced as many here, so take my post for what it's worth, which is the paper it's written on. 

I do know that I had to tire Rocket out a lot to get him to be manageable for me. Walks didn't really do it for him, which is why I took him hiking so much. I mean, we seriously hiked 5 days out of the week. The off-leash, the smelling, the mental stimulation were what he needed. Even taking him on several couple mile walks a day didn't achieve the same thing that the woods did. He wasn't a holy terror or anything, but you could definitely see a difference in the two activities and their effect. I don't know if it's possible for you to find something like that where you live? 

That, and time and maturity and consistency. (I realize I'm also probably preaching to the choir here) And believe me, consistency is hard in a household with a husband who's not very "doggy" and three teens who are "deaf" most of the time, lol. Nothing wrong with a well-timed clear correction the dog understands, either, now that he's "growing up." I think it was around this same age, maybe 8 months, that I discovered that effectiveness. Now, he needs far less of one, because he's matured a bit more and he is more bonded to me. (and we've trained longer, too). It's always a shock, kind of like suddenly seeing your teen standing next to you, realizing they're now taller and they they turn around and sass you back. You're like "Whoa. Ok, time to put the smack down and remind them who's boss", heh heh. (I don't mean physical smack) A few well-thought out "corrections" does wonders, there too. 

You'll get through this.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I think you should get a better trainer that really understands gsds. Instead of telling you she does'nt know what to do. As a trainer she should have many ideas for you to try. I have had my trainer take my dog or someone elses in class who was barking or whining, like shepards do, work them for 5 min while still doing class, hand them back and no more barking. They also say the other dogs need to learn to work with no matter what is going on around them.Clicker training has helped my dog alot even doing it at home has made her better in group class when we are not doing it.To me this trainer has failed you and your dog without trying much and throwing in the towel. You could get alot more from some one on one training with this dog and them moving back to group with a better trainer


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

OK- to update to quell any wondering. Grim is going to see another trainer for his 'mouth' on Friday. We'll see what his deal is. If he did it everywhere, I'd not be so lost. If he directed it towards dogs and or people I wouldn't be so lost. Anyway, I'm going to keep going to the class with or without him and working with him on the side. Also going to do private instruction with him. When he's over whatever his issues are, then we'll try classes again. Now to get his van fixed and back.... :crazy: Yesterday couldn't have gone worse if someone put a hex on me. Hey.. is someone playing with voodoo dolls?!?!?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The exact same thing happened to me, but the timing was different so that had an impact on the outcome. I'd already completed half my classes when my puppy found his bark (non-stop barking, for a week straight, that came out of the blue!) and my trainer was also clueless on how to deal with it. We didn't get kicked out, but it was one noisy class that week. By the next week, he was much quieter. Go figure.

I always went to class early because it was held outdoors and I wanted my puppy to get some running-around time in, to expend some energy. I also wanted him to get some sniffing-around time in, so he wouldn't get distracted by the interesting odors. 
This helped more than I thought it did, which I found out the hard way one week when we were running late and showed up right as class was starting. Ugh!

One thing that I've found with my puppy is that it isn't what he does know or doesn't know, it's his impulse control that dictates his behavior. My puppy also lives for his frisbee, so when I'm 'suiting up' to brave the elements he's required to wait patiently in his crate. It's hard for him but I've seen the results and it's really working. I had him out to visit a friend last weekend and his down/stay was perfect - much to my surprise, lol - but if he can do it when he's bursting with anticipation for his frisbee, he can do it anywhere, because nothing is so important to him as his frisbee is. I can take his mind off anything just by saying the word, lol.

So, what I'd do if I were you, is go that hour early and let Grim sniff around. Play frisbee with him to use up some energy. Then wear a vest that can contain the frisbee and use that to get his interest when he's not paying attention. Hope that helps, Jag. You're a braver soul than I am to drive for that length of time in this miserable weather. I'd probably ask to bow out of the classes for now and pick then back up in the spring, big baby that I am, lol!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Well, this training goes hand in hand with how they do things at the club. The club is also about 1.5 hours. I am going to take him on Monday, and go the hour early. I'm hoping if he gets to sniff around on Friday that will help, too. Haven't tried a frisbee with him. We're working on the puppy leather tug and the ball on a rope (Orbee). I don't want to add too many toys right now. I wonder if Jade has added to this. Right after we moved, she started non-stop barking outside, and sometimes inside. She's getting senile. (We took her to the vet) Grim doesn't bark outside (there's nothing there, but if there is he will bark), but he does whine when she's doing this. Then HE started in with this... so I wonder if it's related. I also wonder if my tension played into it. I was nervous about the first class, and this time I was nervous about him re-playing the last time. Plus the weather was awful for both drives, and I didn't get there early either time...actually a few minutes late!  He can't be a jerk when I'm stressed, though. It just doesn't fit with him laying down inside Bass Pro and chilling. 

I also found out what was wrong with Grim's ride. I nearly blew the engine.... because it was out of oil. It was just checked the end of Dec. and was fine..so it's either leaking or burning. It's a 95, so can't expect too much... but I had NO idea that was it!! It also needed a new battery, which I knew.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I tried the tug, and it worked somewhat as a pacifier, lol. But it didn't have the power that the flirt pole has, or the frisbee. Those 2 things are what my puppy lives for. He'll play with balls and kongs and whatever, but he's not totally thrilled to pieces by them. 

I wonder if Grim was just overwhelmed by everything at Bass Pro, and that's why he was content to just watch everything? And maybe the combination of the long stressful drive and a boring class made him very vocal? If only we knew what they were thinking...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I tried the tug, and it worked somewhat as a pacifier, lol. But it didn't have the power that the flirt pole has, or the frisbee. Those 2 things are what my puppy lives for. He'll play with balls and kongs and whatever, but he's not totally thrilled to pieces by them.
> 
> I wonder if Grim was just overwhelmed by everything at Bass Pro, and that's why he was content to just watch everything? And maybe the combination of the long stressful drive and a boring class made him very vocal? If only we knew what they were thinking...


I'd LOVE to know what he's thinking! I dunno, we were in Bass Pro for over 2 hours, and he was his normal, confident (he STRUTS, LOL!) self from the minute we went through the door. He only acted stressed when he thought he'd get wet when he heard the waterfall (he's like Pigpen from Charlie Brown, LOL!). I'd say class was boring for him, except he started it from the first second.  I hope to know more after Friday! I'd just like to fix it. I did talk to my wife and told her that Jade CANNOT just be left outside barking like that. The very second she starts to bark, she needs to be told "NO" and brought inside. I think if Grim sees that the fun is over for her when she starts (I don't think she's doing it for fun, but suspect he may be), that may help. I can't stand barking dogs outside, but my wife isn't so bothered by it. :crazy:

OMG- you should have seen the ride yesterday! I couldn't bring his kennel, so I put a blanket down on the back seat and he rode there. Well, he wasn't happy to not have his crate. So he whined. A lot. Then he was too hot. So I turned the heat down to where there was just enough to defrost the windshield. He was still hot, so he bunched up the blanket to lay on the seat. Then he decided to look for the 'plastic bottom' like in his kennel. So he started to try to move the cover off the seat! So I put the back window down a little. Then he started playing with the air coming in through it, so I ended up closing it. I kept another window down part way, but eventually had to turn the heat back up a little because my feet were freezing! UGH!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok, now I'm killing myself laughing - my DH has the same attitude. He honestly didn't understand why I was having a fit whenever his dog was outside barking. And his dog will bark nonstop, at anything and everything. He truly believes that this is a perk of living in the country, lol. I'm with you, bark and bring in, period.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

The conversation went something like this-
"Grim, I KNOW you want your kennel. I'm sorry, it won't fit in here and your van wouldn't start! You can live one day without it. The roads are bad, and your mouth isn't helping... I'm trying to drive! What are you doing with the blanket?? I swear, if you make me wreck and we live through it, C's going to kill us both for wrecking her truck! You're hot? OK, fine. We'll deal with the hair later... move it, lay on it, I don't care. There is NO plastic bottom to the seat, Grim! Don't mess up C's truck! She'll kill me if you rip the fabric! I turned the heat down. It will cool off in a minute. I'll get you a drink when I stop for gas. Do you want the window down? There, cold air for you! Grim, don't play with the air! If you don't stop snapping at the air, the window's going back up. OK, you're done. Sorry. I warned you. There. I just opened a front window. Grim, my feet are freezing, so the heat's going back on a little. You'll live. I'll stop again to give you another drink."

The conversation on the way home had some expletives in it, so I won't type that one out. This was *part* of our conversation. I know. :crazy: It's little wonder we were late, even with starting late because of the van and the snowy roads.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Your Grim sounds a lot like Elisabeth's Zefra.

When we go out to train, Zefra often lets her feelings known and barks right in Liz's direction. She may be doing as she is told, but at the same time she is telling Liz exactly what she thinks of it all.

From my experience, many dogs out of strong czech lineage are vocal, intense, barking dogs. Zefra barks when she works, we all sort of accepted that about her and now we just make fun of it by "talking back" to her as she gives Liz attitude. 

I recommend working with a trainer who actually understands the genetics of these dogs. A trainer often finds difficulty training toy breeds and labradors, then suddenly having a czech line working GSD with A LOT of personality. Different dogs.

Seriously, talk with Liz. She is learning how to handle czechy dogs.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Jag said:


> I wasn't offered my money back. He is NOT being aggressive ,just loud . She said she doesn't know how to fix it. I can come early to work him in the empty space and put him up for class or if he can then be quiet he can be in class . She gave me a card for someone else to call to try to fix it. I think he is not old enough or something. Don't correct it? Then how am Isupposed to fix it? Was told she's a great trainer. Used my Christmas money to pay for this too. No he isn't learning when he's like this but I'm at a loss.


Wow, I appreciate the trainer in Spirit's obedience class so much after reading this. We have two shepherds that are very aggressive, absolutely no contact, and they get corrected if they are out of line...but not kicked out! The trainer has complete control, 35+ years experience training shepherds. What does your trainer mean she doesn't know how to fix it!?!

Find a new trainer and DO NOT take this personally! Crap, I don't like her and you can tell her I said that 

I wish you could come to my class.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

In my class, Linda the trainer, would have had Grim under control and you feeling confident in 5 seconds.

Did I say I don't like your trainer?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Wild Wolf said:


> Your Grim sounds a lot like Elisabeth's Zefra.
> 
> When we go out to train, Zefra often lets her feelings known and barks right in Liz's direction. She may be doing as she is told, but at the same time she is telling Liz exactly what she thinks of it all.
> 
> ...


I talk back to Grim, too. Then I got worried that it was adding to it after he started doing this. So now I dunno. He's always 'talking' to me, it seems. I'm making him wait back from the door now before I open it (he was jumping on the door, and there isn't enough room in the entry way to open the door with him right there), and it took me nearly five minutes to get him out the door last time. He was griping at me and moaning at me the whole time, LOL! He complained yesterday about not having his kennel and about being hot, too. I LOVE his talking. That's not so much the issue, though. Him jumping around, grabbing the leash and barking loudly at the walls, ceiling, and air like he's on crack is the major issue. I'm confident (because of all the people directly involved) that we'll get it fixed. I guess all trainers don't specialize in all things. I DO like her method of training, though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Wild Wolf said:


> Your Grim sounds a lot like Elisabeth's Zefra.
> 
> When we go out to train, Zefra often lets her feelings known and barks right in Liz's direction. She may be doing as she is told, but at the same time she is telling Liz exactly what she thinks of it all.
> 
> From my experience, many dogs out of strong czech lineage are vocal, intense, barking dogs. Zefra barks when she works, we all sort of accepted that about her and now we just make fun of it by "talking back" to her as she gives attitude


Really?

Hans is calm, stoic, brave, affectionate, and quiet. He watches over everything, and you can almost see the wheels turning in that blocky head of his. He only barks when someone knocks at the door, or if he senses something is out of sorts.

No wonder the vet and a trainer raised their eyebrows when they heard that Hans was Czech line. The trainer even went so far as to tell me that I had no business owning such a dog, and that I was in way over my head.

Good thing his breeder knew how to select a dog for me. I am way too inexperienced to handle anything but what I have, and that is a lot or me!

Hats off to you, Jag! I adore your boy, but would be a disaster of an owner if he were mine.:crazy:


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I also have a czech line from Dragon gsd. However he is not this vocal except when I tell him time for a walk and even then if he talks and whines too he does not get to go. So to work on that or other issues I do everything in a way that is clear in his head what is going on for the vocalizations before the walk he has to sit while I put his collar on and not whine or talk while I put on my shoes. When he is then quiet I put on his leash and walk out the door with him.

I think if anything with these antics instead of building drive or anything like that with tugs with him I would work on drive capping so this lessens. As far as the barking I would go back and work on his focus in the kitchen and then introduce distractions there and then move outside as far as the bark at me I would not tolerate that. This may also stem from him not being bonded to you as well since he keeps wanting to blow you off as you sat,s o work on that and again as our TD of our Sch. club says if we give a command even during protection it has to be listened to and his head clear before the reward is delivered. For an example if I say here and heel to the dog during a hold and bark the dog has to come back and then get in heel position without any barking and then the helper will come up and give a bite. SO I think with a high drive dog as you describe try to do everything slow and make sure his head is clear while working.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Really?
> 
> Hans is calm, stoic, brave, affectionate, and quiet. He watches over everything, and you can almost see the wheels turning in that blocky head of his. He only barks when someone knocks at the door, or if he senses something is out of sorts.
> 
> ...


Oh, trust me... I *feel* like a disaster of an owner!  He is, however, exactly what I wanted. He's always been a talker, though. The breeder told me he was 'very vocal' back when he was just a wee pup!  He started very quiet. Other than the barking at nothing and everything when he's being a snot, he doesn't bark. If that even makes sense, lol! He doesn't bark in the yard, he doesn't bark at people when we're out on a walk, etc. I don't think he's ever barked yet when someone knocks on the door. The girls do enough barking for all of them!  He goes and looks at what they're barking at outside, then walks away. Another piece of why this is all so confusing.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

szariksdad said:


> I also have a czech line from Dragon gsd. However he is not this vocal except when I tell him time for a walk and even then if he talks and whines too he does not get to go. So to work on that or other issues I do everything in a way that is clear in his head what is going on for the vocalizations before the walk he has to sit while I put his collar on and not whine or talk while I put on my shoes. When he is then quiet I put on his leash and walk out the door with him.
> 
> I think if anything with these antics instead of building drive or anything like that with tugs with him I would work on drive capping so this lessens. As far as the barking I would go back and work on his focus in the kitchen and then introduce distractions there and then move outside as far as the bark at me I would not tolerate that. This may also stem from him not being bonded to you as well since he keeps wanting to blow you off as you sat,s o work on that and again as our TD of our Sch. club says if we give a command even during protection it has to be listened to and his head clear before the reward is delivered. For an example if I say here and heel to the dog during a hold and bark the dog has to come back and then get in heel position without any barking and then the helper will come up and give a bite. SO I think with a high drive dog as you describe try to do everything slow and make sure his head is clear while working.


If I did that to Grim, he'd never go outside. :shocked: The tug play is for SchH. Also want to use play as a reward instead of treats. We are still working on focus at home without distractions. When distractions are added, he gets, well, distracted. Not being bonded to me?? ROTFLMAO! If he got any closer, I'd have to have him surgically removed! How old is your dog? My guy is not quite 7 months. Who are the parents of your pup, BTW?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jag said:


> If I did that to Grim, he'd never go outside. :shocked: The tug play is for SchH. Also want to use play as a reward instead of treats. We are still working on focus at home without distractions. When distractions are added, he gets, well, distracted. Not being bonded to me?? ROTFLMAO! If he got any closer, I'd have to have him surgically removed! How old is your dog? My guy is not quite 7 months. Who are the parents of your pup, BTW?


I see that his dog is three, and barked at his brother-in-law when he was 4 1/2 months old :wild:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I see that his dog is three, and barked at his brother-in-law when he was 4 1/2 months old :wild:


Ahh! My brother in law came over with my nephew unannounced on Sunday. Grim gave them a lick and took himself outside, LOL!


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I dont think you should pre judge your pup and say "he cant settle" because he is czech. My pup is Czech, he is calm and clear..it took work. He did get corrections..they were fair. 

Right now I am housesitting a puppy ( six months) that has some serious bloodlines..

Art ze Sumavske Doliny x Hanach Jipo-me...

Very intense little dude! I met the owner at Petsmart for the first time and he barked for literally a half-hour. My Max just looked at him, like geesh..get a grip!

So, last two days we worked on manners and focus at home. He had to learn what "Aught quiet" meant. We had plenty of opportunities at home, belive me!

When I felt like he could handle it..I took him to Petsmart..with lots of yummy food treats, a clicker, and a prong. He barked immediately upon getting out of the car! He got a collar pop, and I asked him to look, he looked and got treat, click, treat, click , I became a pez machine for a minute. Then off we went. We stayed for about an hour. He started off nervous, sniffing the ground, the air, very distracted. We stayed near the back for a time to work on focus and moved closer as things went better.
He finished up great doing a down stay by the front door. Only his second time at Petsmart and he has done no formal obedience classes. Here he is being a good boy!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

No offense but if your dog is as bonded as you say he is he would not be barking at you or barking for no reason. He also would not focus on another dog when you ask him to focus on you. So I don't agree with your statement about bonding or level of distraction. But hey take it for what it is worth. Yes my dog did what he did and had to work few a things with brother-in-law and dog. I do Sch. along with make sure my dog has house manners. So it take patience is what I have learned in my time owning him to get the results I want with his training.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I think it's important to remember we are talking about a 6 month old puppy here.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

szariksdad said:


> No offense but if your dog is as bonded as you say he is he would not be barking at you or barking for no reason. He also would not focus on another dog when you ask him to focus on you. So I don't agree with your statement about bonding or level of distraction. But hey take it for what it is worth. Yes my dog did what he did and had to work few a things with brother-in-law and dog. I do Sch. along with make sure my dog has house manners. So it take patience is what I have learned in my time owning him to get the results I want with his training.


Whatever you say, dude.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> No offense but if your dog is as bonded as you say he is he would not be barking at you or barking for no reason. He also would not focus on another dog when you ask him to focus on you.



I disagree. That's not a very logical statement.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

ponyfarm said:


> I dont think you should pre judge your pup and say "he cant settle" because he is czech. My pup is Czech, he is calm and clear..it took work. He did get corrections..they were fair.
> 
> Right now I am housesitting a puppy ( six months) that has some serious bloodlines..
> 
> ...


*I* didn't say he couldn't settle because he's Czech. When he was evaluated, I was saying (and others were saying) that he had a short attention span. Someone else said "He's a male, 6 months old, and Czech". I took that to be a reference to the fact that Czech dogs are said to mature slower. He's HYPER at times. Probably all due to handler error. He's anything but nervous. I guess you'd have to see it. He's like a happy energizer bunny when in his 'mood'. Tail wagging a million miles an hour. He was born acting like he ruled the earth and walked on water, LOL! (I mean this nearly literally, as the breeder took notice of this early on) He needs work on manners, which we're working on now. We've also just started working on 'quiet' because before I had no reason to tell him quiet because he didn't bark. He also picks and chooses where and when he'll do this. I just went to pick up his ride, and since I walked there, I took him with me. He went into the dealership with me.... into the 'shop' part. Other than his (normal) vocalizations, nothing. He was well behaved. He walked nicely, he sat when I told him to. He was fine at the club. He was fine when I took him other places.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

He just needs to be around more dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

ponyfarm said:


> He just needs to be around more dogs.


Why? That makes no sense to me. He's not barking at the dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

OMG, I was just dying laughing at Grim!! On the rare occasion that something catches him off guard or freaks him out, he gets mad. Our house is right next to a hotel, separated by a line of very tall trees/bushes that you can't really see through at all. Well, the dogs were outside, and someone suddenly started a snow blower. He came running up to the door, and I actually saw hackles up  all down his back! So I open the door, and all the dogs come in. Grim barks, (his I'm really pissed bark!) then goes running back out (hackles are now down) right to the fence where the 'big noise' is coming from and he's trying to see through the bushes to find out what it is. He lets out some big boy barks, and keeps looking back at me. So I walked out there (I didn't know what it was, either, but it was LOUD!) to try to see what it is. After a minute, I can finally see it's a snow blower. Grim's letting out a bark every couple of seconds, and looking from it to me. I can see it in his eyes, "Do you HEAR that?? What is that thing??" So I tell him, "It's a snow blower, Grim. It's fine." I start walking away from the fence, tell him "let's go" and he lopes back into the house looking so very proud of himself! :laugh:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It has to do with his threshold, which is genetic. Some dogs will leak regardless...you can tell them to quiet the barking, but they'll lay there and whine. 
Czech dogs aren't louder than any other line, and I know this thread turned to Czech importance when it isn't about that(Jag didn't start that fork)
My male(Czech/WG) is very quiet in his crate in the vehicle, doesn't go off when people pass my van during training,quiet doing long downs, quiet for the most part doing obedience....but when it comes to protection, he barks & whines. Every command I give him while doing protection has the word quiet attached. He is rewarded with bites when he complies.
He's this way at home some, barks at his balls outside and barks when I get home. He isn't a barker when it comes to guests or strangers. Never barks at the vacuum or other stimuli. He'll pay attention and if necessary then will warning bark when people knock.
Personally, if this was my dog, I'd give him a couple strong collar corrections with a stern NO when he starts in on the barking during training(or inappropriate times). Obviously it isn't going to shut him down(may ramp him up, but I'd give it a try)
edit to add: Whenever I shut my laptop, no matter how sneaky quiet I try to be, Karlo barks! He never fails....not fun late at night!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Jane, I did that at the last class (collar correction) when the trainer was telling me her stuff, and it DID ramp him up more. So I don't know what to do with that. Any suggestions?

Oh, one more question. When I tell him "quiet" for barking, he WILL whine then. I've been telling him 'quiet' for that, too. However, that means that I'm telling him 'quiet' a LOT. Should I save the 'quiet' for the barking only??


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ponyfarm, first I have to say, what a beautiful boy you are petsitting?,,he's stunning, I don't think I could give him back

I have /had a czech female(s).. With Masi, I just don't have a big mouth at all, she never has been. She is 4, just lately she's put on her big girl pants and will alert bark if someone comes to the door, (but it's COME ON IN!) , if she's in my car and a stranger 'touches' my car, she'll go off on them, she's quiet in a crate, she's otherwise quiet in the car, quiet at home. 

When she was young and right after she had a few negative experiences in a class we were in, she started being barky/defensive towards other dogs,,I nipped that in the bud pronto, doing what Jane has advised above, except I used a LEAVE IT, and then I was on top of her before she reached that 'barkiness'..with again, a "leave it" BEFORE I knew something was going to set her off..

I do find these dogs tend to mature later, however, with Masi, tho she wasn't/isn't a marshmellow by any means, she has been a pretty easy 'trainer'..I"ve never had 'focus' issues with her, she's attached to my hip, she's not easily distracted, it's all about "me", which is flattering but also makes for easy training.

I've honestly found my boys to be easier trainers than my girls, altho Masi comes pretty darn close to the males I've had.

It's setting rules, being consistent and being fair. 

What Jane advised 'may' ramp him up, but I would try it, he may get more 'po'd'' that he's being corrected for something he basically thinks is ok but atleast you will have tried it..

oops was posting when you were posting


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

*Tone of voice*

This may be old hat to you, but if you haven't done this already, try paying particular attention to your tone of voice. Jaeger, our 7 month old GSD, is very tuned in to that. I am quite sure that if I was feeling embarrassed or nervous about his behavior in public and he heard that in my voice he would totally react to it. Probably by doing something that would make me feel worse, lol. Jaeger can gauge perfectly whether or not I am slightly annoyed, quite serious, or almost angry. When he hears almost angry from me he quietly goes to his kennel, pushes the door open, and lies down in there with only his nose poking out.  When he hears that I am serious, he tries to do what I ask. But if I am only mildly annoyed he sometimes tries to blow me off and get away with stuff.

Unfortunately he has also learned "Make Mom laugh and she forgets to make you behave."  This is something I need to work on for myself, lol.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sooo...what do I do? Collar corrections anyway? 

I don't know if I said this before, but I'll say it now. Part of this I KNOW is my fault. I had lots of people saying "just let him be a puppy" on threads. So, Grim had very little rules. I changed the way I did things with him. So his manners stink because I allowed him to do a lot. Not that I never got after him, but not a lot, and only vocal corrections. So physical corrections are new for him, as are a lot of the 'new' rules. It didn't occur to me before (because my brain moves very slowly at times now with making connections) but it wasn't too long after Jade had started the 'bark all the time in the yard at absolutely nothing' that Grim barked like a fool at Petsmart. (I had posted about that. I didn't know what was wrong.) I think the two are linked in some way. He was NOT a 'barker' before that day. I don't know if it's threshold, because it's not constant, and it's at odd times. Like yesterday on the way home. We stopped for him to potty. He was jumping around, tail wagging, tongue lolling out, barking at (literally) the air, the snow, the sky... :crazy: It's never at a person or a dog, per se. It's just at... nothing. It's not strange places, because I've since taken him to 'strange places' and nothing. It's not strange people, because of the same reason. It's not dogs because of the same reason. He's not 'on alert', he's not stressed, he's not nervous. He looks like he's literally bursting with happiness!  If someone can come up with something that makes sense with that info, I'd REALLY appreciate it!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Muneraven said:


> This may be old hat to you, but if you haven't done this already, try paying particular attention to your tone of voice. Jaeger, our 7 month old GSD, is very tuned in to that. I am quite sure that if I was feeling embarrassed or nervous about his behavior in public and he heard that in my voice he would totally react to it. Probably by doing something that would make me feel worse, lol. Jaeger can gauge perfectly whether or not I am slightly annoyed, quite serious, or almost angry. When he hears almost angry from me he quietly goes to his kennel, pushes the door open, and lies down in there with only his nose poking out.  When he hears that I am serious, he tries to do what I ask. But if I am only mildly annoyed he sometimes tries to blow me off and get away with stuff.
> 
> Unfortunately he has also learned "Make Mom laugh and she forgets to make you behave."  This is something I need to work on for myself, lol.


I know, I'm terrible! LOL! It was just so funny that he got scared (a RARE event!) and then of course got mad because something scared him. He went running to that fence again like his rear was on fire out of anger.  So he had to 'prove' that he was NOT afraid and go investigate. 

I changed this thing with my voice, too, with him. Previous shepherds, when I gave them a command, it was with a very serious voice. If they didn't do it right away, I got very stern with them. Then I saw all these videos of people telling their dogs "sit", etc., in a soft, lilting voice. So I was doing that with Grim. May be part of why he's blowing me off at times?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jag said:


> (because my brain moves very slowly at times now with *making connections*) but it wasn't too long after *Jade had started the 'bark all the time in the yard at absolutely nothing'* that Grim barked like a fool at Petsmart. (I had posted about that. I didn't know what was wrong.) I think the two are linked in some way. He was NOT a 'barker' before that day. I don't know if it's threshold, because it's not constant, and it's at odd times. Like yesterday on the way home. We stopped for him to potty. He was jumping around, tail wagging, tongue lolling out, *barking at (literally) the air, the snow, the sky...* :crazy: It's never at a person or a dog, per se. It's just at... nothing. It's not strange places, because I've since taken him to 'strange places' and nothing. It's not strange people, because of the same reason. It's not dogs because of the same reason. He's not 'on alert', he's not stressed, he's not nervous. He looks like he's literally bursting with happiness!  If someone can come up with something that makes sense with that info, I'd REALLY appreciate it!


 
Rabies Miasm...(google this w/dogs naturally magazine)

Barking at nothing/everything
Imaginary fly snapping
fear of water
sudden aggression


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Rabies Miasm...(google this w/dogs naturally magazine)
> 
> Barking at nothing/everything
> Imaginary fly snapping
> ...


Sorry...not even close.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Seriously.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jag said:


> Sorry...not even close.


 
Really? B/C - these are the things I pulled from what you have said, such as him pinning your pug a new behaviour (on another thread)

You were at some store (Golf?), and he got wigged at some water thingy

biting at the air

barking at the sky

this could all be what is classified as symptoms of a smaller scale that mimic actual rabies - caused from vaccine, which he would have had when??? can you associate all this starting about a month or so after you had him done? were other vax's given at time and did Jade get rabies shot too prior to new barking at nothing in yard?

On another note: Try melatonin about an hour before class, may help him relax - better for his adrenals and over all health to be in a more relaxed state. 

Oh, and before anybody jumps all over what I said - I just put out a possibility...IMO...keep this thread about what Jag has to say and try not to get it locked...I won't be responding to


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Really? B/C - these are the things I pulled from what you have said, such as him pinning your pug a new behaviour (on another thread)
> 
> You were at some store (Golf?), and he got wigged at some water thingy
> 
> ...


OK- I'll address/correct/clarify the points to put your mind at ease. 
1-Grim pinning Layla isn't new. I recently posted that he's been doing that for awhile. 
2-Grim has NEVER liked water. The breeder told me this before I ever got him. I posted that at some point, too.
3-Biting at the air was when I put the window down in the truck for him. I've seen other dogs do this.
4-Barking at the sky and many other random things. He's an odd duck. He used to chase butterflies at the breeder's house, too. I've repeated multiple times, it's not all the time. He "sprays" his barking all over... at nothing and everything.
5- He hasn't even had his rabies vaccine yet! So it's not possible. Jade didn't get her rabies shot until a couple weeks ago. Long after she started her stuff. 
I appreciate the thought, I really do. I'm not giving him melatonin, though. I appreciate the time and thought you put into this, but it's just not possible. Also, the 'symptoms' were crossed with what I'd actually said for the most part.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Wow, he's 7 months and he hasn't had a rabies vax. yet! Good for you!

Melatonin is just a suggestion to put him in a calm place to get where you need to be at the training centre...while he is stressed for what ever reason, you are not getting through to him in this hightened state...I was just suggesting as it might help - even as a one off, so the next time he goes he may have a positive association.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

rabies? I'm sorry I'm chuckling at this one..sorry I apologize

I still think it has alot to do with pent up frustration..I let my dogs be 'puppies' as well, but they do have rules

The voice thing, I learned real quick with my 'tougher' dogs, that say "siiiiit" ,,like "Masi honey would you sit please" type of voice, would get me the "paw' every time LOL..

With my aussie, yes, she's a marshmellow, my shepherds no,,when I tell them to do something, I have to use my serious "DO IT NOW" voice..

Well you've got some good ideas to try I think with this thread, try em and see what happens


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Jag, have you taught Grim to bark on command? In one of my super smart books, there was a recommendation in regards to barking that made sense. You teach your dog to bark, you praise them for barking, tell them to stop and reward. The goal is to teach them that for example barking 2-3 times for a squirrel is ok, and then they have to stop. That way, they can still bark at things (of course not you)and get their frustration out, without going into a barking frenzy. I would love to try this with Dexter, but he only barks in class.  And he's still very young at 15 weeks. 

I have taught him "stop", which means don't do whatever it is you're doing - like whining. I'm not used to whining in dogs and it annoys me to no end. Stop works for every behavior right now, that's not covered by other commands, whining included. I wouldn't try using the same command for barking though, since I want him to bark when the situation is appropriate. Now, I know that things are a bit different for Schutzhund prospects, so I hope I'm not being working dog ignorant with my suggestions.

As frustrated as you are, your experiences are actually really helpful to me as a new GSD owner.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Don't get too excited, he isn't 7 months until the 9th. I plan to get him in this week. I just put it off because of the other vaccines he got. 

Yes, LOTS of info. and things to work on! Very helpful thread!  I just still don't know what to do about the collar corrections....

Glad Grim and I could be of service, LOL!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jag said:


> .
> 3-Biting at the air


My dog did this a lot when she was younger...air snapping. She still does every now and then. When she did this when she was younger it scared the kids.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I almost forgot! Teaching him to 'speak' is now on my list of things to do. My previous shepherds knew how to do this. I think it is a good way to get the 'quiet' part across, plus he'll be able to bark at other times. I don't mind the whining. It's usually mixed with various vocalizations... which end up pretty funny. I know when he's frustrated vs. when he's mad depending on the 'tone'.

He doesn't air snap. He only bit at the air when the window was down.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hans used to air snap. He did it before I threw the ball.
I kinda miss it.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

If the correction amped him up you either need to try a harder correction. Or try a correction with a dominant dog collar/choke chain type. I also have a czech. She's a nut job sometimes. Has an insane amount of energy and drive. She reminds me of a mal and so far fits right in with them in French ring. When she's in drive or like your boy all worked up, she needs a much firmer correction than when she's not. Also make sure your prong is fitted correctly and use small links, not large. They work better. 


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Capone- I really like my face the way it is. :crazy: I have a feeling I can create a HA dog very easy if I make the wrong move.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

OK- those of you saying to teach him to bark... I just taught him. In 2 minutes. I'm not exaggerating, either.  Considering all I had to do was lift his paw ONCE to teach him to shake, I'll bet he is barking out of frustration. His stupid handler isn't keeping up with him!! 

http://youtu.be/pc5jpFS32OA


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You are far from stupid, but I will agree that you're not keeping up with posting videos of all these things you're teaching him.:wild:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Dude- I just posted the 'speak' video! Oh, you want the 'shake' one, too? Or what all do you want? I'll get vids of whatever. I feel like an incompetent moron. This is the MOST intelligent dog I've ever owned. I'm certain he's smarter than I am. :crazy:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I love that dog :wub:!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I love that dog :wub:!


You and me both!  I am totally freaking out at how fast he picked up these two 'tricks'. I got his treats for him to go to his kennel, and he ran in there. I said "No, Grim, come here!" So he runs back out at me full speed...stops right before he's about to bowl me over. I said "Speak!" and he did a REALLY loud bark right away. I said "OK, now you can go to your bed", and he took off into his kennel.  So I guess I get a louder and slightly deeper bark if he's totally wound up!  I think I have a few 'still shots' from that session that I'll post in the pictures section. :wub: Nope, sorry.. they won't work that way. I'll get more pics.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am betting he would make a great police dog. 

What you say about him reminds me of Hans's brother, who looked like Joe Pesci!
Robin said she would set him on the sofa to take his picture, but no sooner did she pick up her camera than he was in her face. She had to repeat the process several times. That was the firecracker in the litter. She said she would never have sold me that dog, LOL.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

can I offer some critique? Hopefilly thats a yes.

When doing a "yes!" try and make your reward move away from the dog. You want to build drive for the reward, and keep him motivated to work. WHen you move the reward away after you say yes, he will drive into it as if chasing prey. ME describes it by saying, prey doesn't jump in front of the wolf and shove itself in their mouth. HERE EAT ME. They chase it. Builds the excitement for it. Little things like this, and building motivation can be huge in helping keep his focus when under distraction. 

Also, I am sure you know, you said sit 3 times.  and it might have just been because you were trying to get it on video but If you are positive he knows sit, you know you can give a correction. Even if its just a no, or eh eh if you don't want to do physical corrections yet. 

IF this was my dog and I wanted the dog for sport I would lay off any training except for FOCUS, building motivation in working WITH me, and tracking to work on calm, focused energy. Start slow with focus on you, I use look, you can use whatever cue and work up in the distraction level until he is rock solid in it. I wouldn't even bother with the real obedience stuff until I felt like I had his attention no matter what situation we were in and he was ignoring all distractions begging me to play with him with his tug/ball or to interact with me in some way.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

If you want I can get a video showing what I mean when I move the treat away after saying yes. Hopefully I made sense.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers- his litter mates went to the police. 

Capone-that's a good idea with the food rewards. I'll give that a try. I got used to doing that because the Pug is usually out when I'm working with him, and she waits for him to drop a treat.  Then he gets upset because she took it, and I've lost him. As far as your other suggestions... I've gotten a lot of suggestions. He has to be mentally worked. He likes the pet tricks and learns them fast. When he's mentally bored, I believe he becomes more frustrated. However, I'm going to be working on focus, and the private lessons will help me get more direction for IPO. Oh, and yes.. I didn't care if I told him 3 times because I didn't want to have to 'wait him out' for the video. I *do* usually have to wait him out.. because he's not paying attention. I did give him a verbal correction, but you probably didn't hear it or recognize it, as it's just a sound.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I am betting he would make a great police dog.
> 
> What you say about him reminds me of Hans's brother, who looked like Joe Pesci!
> Robin said she would set him on the sofa to take his picture, but no sooner did she pick up her camera than he was in her face. She had to repeat the process several times. That was the firecracker in the litter. She said she would never have sold me that dog, LOL.


Now I know why my breeder had to take so many pics to get one to send to me! I have to take 10 to get 2 that aren't blurry, LOL! That's why I don't post a ton of pics. It's HARD to get pics of him!


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I totally get the mentally worked part. But learning to focus on you is mentally tiring. First for 2 seconds than add more duration. Then doing it around other people, at petsmart, when someone is throwing a ball near by, out side while other dogs are walking calmly, outside of the dog park where dogs are going nuts. As he progresses it gets harder and harder and will tire him out. And tricks are always fun. I mostly just meant I would forget the sits downs stays etc and get the focus and motivation to see you as the most fun toy of all vs an outside stimuli before the formal obedience stuff. Tracking is AMAZING for tiring them out also. Or games of find it. Rogue has gotten very good at find it. If I say find your ball she actually knows to go hunt her ball down. Whether outside or inside. It's amazing. We do this for treats, toys, people and her meals. It helps so much more than physical exercise. Which of course we do also. 

Good luck. This dog has taught me SO much in a short amount of time. Their intelligence matched with the drie and energy is just crazy. But so much fun!! 


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I've actually been working on this for awhile with him, but stalled out. I think he finds staring at me incredibly boring. Maybe I'm missing something?? We're going to start tracking after the weather breaks. We've got a lot of snow outside, and I have someone to teach me when conditions are better.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Jag said:


> I wasn't offered my money back. He is NOT being aggressive ,just loud . She said she doesn't know how to fix it. I can come early to work him in the empty space and put him up for class or if he can then be quiet he can be in class . She gave me a card for someone else to call to try to fix it. I think he is not old enough or something. Don't correct it? Then how am Isupposed to fix it? Was told she's a great trainer. Used my Christmas money to pay for this too. No he isn't learning when he's like this but I'm at a loss.


maybe your trainer needs to expand her knowledge and keep up with seminars? How old is the dog? First few basic classes were AWFUL with all the dogs, even obnoxious ones (to the trained eye, probably looks mean to others.) 

The point of class is to socialize as well. Can you e-collar the dog during class? Pound the dog on a pinch or something.. just don't put up with it and it won't happen in class!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

He will be 7 months on Saturday. IMO, an E-collar at this time wouldn't be the right tool for him. The point of this particular class is NOT to socialize. Maybe puppy kindergarten is, but this one is not. E-collars aren't allowed in class. I don't think that 'pounding the pinch' is the right approach for him, either. Thanks for your suggestions, though.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Jag said:


> He will be 7 months on Saturday. IMO, an E-collar at this time wouldn't be the right tool for him. The point of this particular class is NOT to socialize. Maybe puppy kindergarten is, but this one is not. E-collars aren't allowed in class. I don't think that 'pounding the pinch' is the right approach for him, either. Thanks for your suggestions, though.


I agree with not using an e-collar....prong yes.

I don't believe a dog being socialized always has to mean direct contact with other dogs....it's kind of why the term irks me sometimes. Being in class & working around other dogs & people is a form socialization.

If it were me I would skip the idea of direct dog interaction...puppy playtime settings. Grim needs to focus on you....you are his world. I agree with your post here.

Also, thank you for posting his pic in this thread. He is very handsome and of course a character


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I have NEVER liked group classes, especially for puppies, and this is one of the biggest reasons why!

I strongly feel dogs should be taught in a calm, private environment void of distractions. Only after they have learned their basic obedience should they be put in a class to proof their commands under distraction. My trainer does privates lessons until your dog has learned everything, and THEN you can go to group classes.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Have trained in group classes for 30 years.  Unfortunately Grim is not ready for this particular class. Hopefully with the private lessons with the two different trainers Grim will be ready for the group class in May. Jag will also be auditing the rest of the class so it will not have been a total waste of her time.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Group classes are great for distractions-sounds like Lisa knows what is going on in class-lol


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, she does know! She's met my maniac, lol! He wasn't being a maniac then, though. Private lessons for now is the best thing for him. *I* will be going to class, because it's what I need and want to do. Grim will be OK. He'll be able to do this later I'm sure. He's just not ready to chill in this setting for some reason.


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## Ziltoid (Dec 16, 2012)

This thread has me a bit worried. I'm starting a group obedience class with my 5 month old male next week and was a bit worried because he is a barker, mainly towards other dogs.

He usually calms down after a few minutes so hopefully getting there early so he gets it out of his system before class starts will work.


Oh well, if he's too bad I guess my female can take over that class and I can find something else for him.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

If you're taking a puppy K class, don't worry about it! It's different than a foundation obedience class. We 'skipped' puppy K, because he was already past that. I haven't taken a class before, but I think most puppy classes are to work on issues as well. This class wasn't to work on issues. It was just an odd thing, because this is where his mouth crops up.


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## Ziltoid (Dec 16, 2012)

We have different terminolgy for the classes but it's an adult class. I went and watched last week and all the dogs were basically silent and focused... which is what had me worried!!

It starts with a 4 week beginners class before you move up though so there's a chance the behaviour won't be so great with the newbies. The guys I watched last week had all been going for at least a few months.

The puppy classes around me are for more the 10-14 week range. He was the most quiet and subdued pup in that class... haha!!! things have changed quite a bit in the short time since then!!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I thought I would respond here as I already sent a private message to Jag with my thoughts.

Zefra is a VERY intense dog, both in the home and out. She is always "on" and always in "work mode". As she gets older she is able to calm down when needed (in the home), but she turns on very quickly.

Zefra is a barker, not so much in the house but when we are playing or working she likes to talk - at me, at the ball, at the helper, at the sky, at the bird, at everything and anything. She also likes to bark in your face if she is upset (say I didn't reward her for a crooked sit or the like). 

I KNOW that Zefra would never do well in a quiet obedience class setting like the one Grim was in. She would be restless, barking at me or just barking to entertain herself, and just being plain distributive to the other members of the class.

She is 110% social with people and other dogs and loves everyone she meets, actually to be honest, she loves anyone who even looks in her direction, but the intenseness that comes can put people off a bit. We jokingly say (with some truth) that Zefra even loves hard!

Zefra is learning to stop, listen, and THEN react in training situations such as come into a fuss, WAIT until I move to move, etc.. she still will come into position and start barking at me and nipping me (sometimes even jumping up in my face to bark) to get me to move. Obviously this is something that we continuously work on and it has gotten a million times better.

I think with some dogs, not so much based on the lines (but maybe a little) that they need a little more time to mature before we put them in particular situations. 

Zefra is still VERY immature and I have been able to go very slow with Zefra in regards to our training. She didn't even start to learn how to fuss until she was almost 18 months old because she just couldn't settle enough to listen to what I wanted or had to show her. 

It was a great trainer in our area (TD of a local schH club that I frequent and bug for advice) that told me that she just needed time to grow up. 

I still brought her out to the club, and worked with her but did so in VERY small increments and did things that would not amp her up. Such as asking for focus in a farmers market or working on her sit or down. 

At 7 months, or even 1 year old, there would be NO WAY that she could participate for a 1hour obedience class quietly... no way! Which I knew and never put her in. The classes we did were always one-on-ones, and private trainers. This worked for us because when I saw her getting to her point of not being able to engage with me because the drive was so high, we stopped what we were doing and did something else, or put her up.

Now, not everyone is going to think she is a good working dog and that is fine, but she is who she is and she is turning out to be an EXCELLENT working companion for me and is SUPER easy to work now that I know how to handle her.

I think working with people and educating yourself about how to work with your dog is really going to help you. 

Just don't loose sight that one thing may work for others but not for your dog... take the information and apply it to your dog in the way it will work for the both of you.

Zefra was announced as "a extremely hard dog, with extreme drive and not for a novice handler" from a very respected source in the Canadian SchH community and I was told that I probably would not be able to bring her full potential out because of my novice handling skills... well, we are fast on our way to our BH/IPO1 titles now and I have actually improved my handling skills.. she has taught me so much more than any other dog I have ever been around... keeps me on my toes and I am always very aware of what I am doing when working Zefra... LOL.

I honestly think that Grim needs time to mature and you need time to become a more direct leader. Some dogs need that structure very early on. Just from a few videos you posted, I can see a bit of frustration on your part and on Grims. I only work Zefra when I am 100% on and 'into it' otherwise we just play ball or do something else. 

Again, just my experience and Wild Wolf knows what we have been through and how Zefra is... she sees her almost every day and we train together at club and at home together. 

You are lucky to have people around you who can lend a hand and their wisdom.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you for your post and your input! I do believe that my handling skills are putting us both in a position of frustration. I want him to do one thing, he wants to do another. Some of the advice I've been given here just won't work with him. I know this, because I live with him. Geez, Zefra sounds a LOT like Grim! I think time is going to be our friend. Pushing him into doing things he either isn't ready for or just doesn't want to do has not worked for us. He is hard as nails, and he doesn't let me forget it. His intensity when he does want to do something is breath taking.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jag - I am going to train tomorrow with Wild Wolf and will have someone take a video of BOTH of us training... you will see he difference and also be able to see how we manage each dog differently. They are the same age, both considered to be "high drive, schH dogs" as well. 

Different dogs, different way of handling each one. 

You will also see the difference between the two dogs when I say both are 'intense' but Zefra is INTENSE. 

Might give you another look at working a different dog as well.. 

I know I am not the most experienced but that might work in your favor as well.... I am still learning every day with Zefra (and of course Stark) but it can be done!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> *It has to do with his threshold, which is genetic. Some dogs will leak regardless.*..you can tell them to quiet the barking, but they'll lay there and whine.
> Czech dogs aren't louder than any other line, and I know this thread turned to Czech importance when it isn't about that(Jag didn't start that fork)
> My male(Czech/WG) is *very quiet in his crate in the vehicle, doesn't go off when people pass my van during training,quiet doing long downs*, quiet for the most part doing obedience...*.but when it comes to protection, he barks & whines.* *Every command I give him while doing protection has the word quiet attached. He is rewarded with bites when he complies.*
> He's this way at home some*, barks at his balls outside and barks when I get home. He isn't a barker when it comes to guests or strangers. Never barks at the vacuum or other stimuli. He'll pay attention and if necessary then will warning bark when people knock.*
> ...



This is Zefra as well. 

EXCEPT - she leaks a lot during obedience. If I down her, she acts like she has a job to do and quiets right down. 

I know that if I want her quiet (if I am talking to the TD or another club member during an intense lesson) then I down her.

Zefra doesn't bark at much outside of her working but she will bark when she is totally excited - which is when she works. 

I usually couple every command with a "hush" at the end ... if I correct with a collar pop or prong then it ramps her right up.


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