# Is just training to bite the sleeve a bad thing??



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm learning about this so dont roll your eyes at me too much, lol

I have wondered about this before and then did read an (old) story about it. A police dog was in a real life situation where it was sent after a man who tried to run from the police. The dog did catch the guy by the arm, and was doing what it was supposed to do, but the "bad guy" was wearing a jacket, which the dog tore off, and then proceeded to carry it around and shake it, instead of continuing to hold the "bad guy" meanwhile, the lone officer was then wrestling the guy on the ground, and wound up being shot. 

My question is, is it a good thing to teach a dog to only bite the sleeve and let him have it as a reward? Doesnt it just create confusion? Is this a real problem or maybe just bad/incomplete training on the dogs part?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

PatchonGSD said:


> My question is, is it a good thing to teach a dog to only bite the sleeve and let him have it as a reward? Doesnt it just create confusion? Is this a real problem or maybe just bad/incomplete training on the dogs part?


Yes, you hit the nail on the head. This is where a dog is working in prey drive, and getting the jacket is catching the prey, so as far as they are concerned, they finished the job. Dogs that are civil, and have a lot of fight/defense drive, would not be so focused on the sleeve or the jacket, and go for the person. That is where a lot of the criticism about SchH/IPO comes from, in that it really only teaches the dog to bite the sleeve, and be equipment focused, and encourages a dog to work in prey drive only. But SchH/IPO was not meant to produce finished police dogs, but to bring out the basics in a dog so that a trainer/breeder CAN identify the dogs with real fight drive and use those dogs for breeding, or select them for further police training. 

It is also a question of training - I can't speak for all trainers or all police forces, but the RCMP specifically train a "re-attack". The decoy has a bite sleeve on one arm (or wearing a loose bite jacket that is not done up, and a hidden sleeve on the other arm. The decoy runs, the dog is sent after the decoy and latches on to the bite sleeve/bite suit jacket. The decoy wrestles with the dog, then slips the sleeve/jacket and attempts a get-away. The dog is trained to drop the sleeve/jacket and go after the other arm. This is one of the exercises the dogs need to complete successfully for their annual re-qualification. 

Dogs with good fight drive LOVE this exercise, I mean, they get to bite the bad guy not just once, but twice! :wild:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Incomplete training. Training a dog for actual street work is a very specific skill. We did K9 work here for many years and saw all levels of training in the different department dogs. Most buy an already trained and "certified" dog from a facility. Some came out of the box ready to go but many just looked like they could do the job but in reality were just confused when it came down to it. 
Since there in no real certification program for trainers, anyone who can sound like they are knowledgeable can get in the "business". In our experience, the best dogs were those whose handlers became interested in the training and learned to continue their dogs training themselves.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Patchon!
Police K-9's are trained differently than SchH. In most areas.

Although some K9's are able to do it all, generally they are trained by their partner/handler in a specific area (apprehension, narcotics detection, SAR, Bomb Detection, Cadaver Search, etc) as support for police officers. Just based on what you have related about this story, and in my opinion, It's possible this dog was trained in a specific area.

In my experience, an Apprehension trained K-9 would not have just taken the sleeve of a jacket and left his LEO partner/handler alone to fight this person.

As for training to just bite the sleeve...it depends on what you're training for?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Patchon, does this mean you're volunteering to be a sleeveless decoy? :wild:


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Ah yes, the age old question of sport dog vs. street dog...


Sleeve, suit, hidden sleeve, muzzle...All necessary to inject "realism" into the equation.

Also, these are all done in real life working environments, with environmental and decoy pressure-not just on a sterile, nice level grass trial field. 

There was discussion in another post recently about some similar stuff...here's what I posted in that thread. I think it makes sense when discussing sport vs. dogs that will engage for real.
_
I always think of it like this analogy:

A sport dog is like a man trained in the sport of boxing. They have been trained within the boundaries of rules. When to maintain control, when to strike, where to target, when to stop engaging. All at the direction of a Judge, and rules, with defined boundaries, of a 'fair fight"._ _

A police dog is like a street fighter, operating without rules of a "fair fight". If a classically trained boxer that has never fought outside the ring is thrown in a street fight, and operates by the rules, in most cases, the outcome may not be favorable. Not because the boxer has a lack of talent, strength, nerve, or any other physical quality- just a lack of exposure to operating in that environment._ _

In most cases, you can't take a dog that's been trained in a sterile "sport only" environment, and expect it to operate in a realistic environment, if has only seen a sport field. I concur with the others that sport dogs often have great foundations to build upon, but oftentimes many of the issues like environmental stability, etc. necessary for real life deployment have been neglected or minimized since the dog would never encounter it on a sport field, thus has never been exposed to it. _


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