# To Spay or not to Spay



## sleepybree03 (Dec 14, 2007)

Hello! My female is a little over 2 yrs old and I am debating whether to spay or not. I have been reading some conflicting articles on spaying females. Most agree that spaying them before their first heat dramatically decreases their chances of mammary cancer ( but she has already had several heat cycles so I don't know if this would still apply to me). However, there are negatives to spaying as well. I am not worried about pregnancy b/c she is an inside dog and she is very trained and does not run off or anything like that. Any advice? Do spayed dogs live longer, healtheir lives?


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I recommend spaying. There are too many accidents in animal shelters already. I have a spayed female, and she does just fine.


----------



## sleepybree03 (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks but I am trying to base my decision on medical/health reasons and not on possible irreponsiblity of an owner (which would not apply to me b/c she will not get pregnant by accident). I want to hear the medical/health pros and cons of people with GSDs.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

In response, I was just letting you know that my spayed female is healthy. Is this not considered a health related response?? My apologies for sounding like I was insinuating that you are an irresponsible dog owner. I just wanted to offer what I could.....that there is at least one healthy spayed female out there.....I thought you might want as many answers as possible to gain more insight into the subject. I'm sure others will have loads of information, but that was mine, I'm sorry if wasn't what you were looking for.


----------



## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Lots of discussion on this in the Health section - you should probably have posted your question there.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Yeah, probably under Basic Care....whoops....that's where it is.


----------



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Never say never, it is called an accident for a reason. Even the most responciable person can slip up.

Though besides that, pyometra is my #1 reason for spaying a female who isn't going to be bred. If you want any good reason, that is one for me. It nearly killed my girl and the bills to fix it totalled roughly 10 spays.


----------



## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

I second Chance's mom.!!


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Some folks never spay and their dog lives a full wonderful life. Some spay laterin life due to health concerns. One thing for certain (backed up by a recent study) spaying too early IS NOT the way to go.

I would wait as long as possible before thinking about it.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

SPAY!

I always wait until after the second heat for my girls. You want the hormones for normal growth, but once they are grown, do the spay....I've recently had a bunch of friends that just were too lazy to get the surgery for their dogs, but ended up with REALLY ill dogs and super $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ surgery from pyrometra. Scary scary.

Here's the article about why wait until grown...

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The only dog that I ever had with cancer was a spayed shepherd mix. It was stomach cancer, very aggressive, did surgery, she recovered, and the vet said 12-18 months. She was 1 1/2 at the time of the surgery. She did live to 14. 

Since I spayed arwen nearly two years ago (at almost seven years) she has developed some low thyroid numbers. This was manifest in a dull coat, and foul smell as though she were incontinent. I put her on thyroxine, but when I changed foods, I took her off the thyroxine with the blessing of my vet and we are waiting to take a new blood test to see if the new food provides what she needs. Thyroid was only 1 point lower than acceptable range. 

I have not dealt with pyometra, but have known people who have. I will take my chances, and spay if there is an issue. I know that I could lose a bitch that way, but frankly, you can lose a bitch to a spay as well. 

Arwen hemmoraged badly after her spay, needed to be hospitalized again. 

This is why I do not spay a healthy bitch:

1. My dogs are kept in covered, kennels with a concrete base, fenced around, and sorry Chance's Mom, but they CANNOT get pregnant without my blessing. 

2. I believe that the hormones generated in the ovaries, are for more than reproduction or growth. I think that like women, those hormones are missed later on, but unlike women, bitches are not generally given hormone therapy. 

3. The uterine horns are attached to the bladder, and a sloppy spay can cause incontinance for the rest of your bitch's life. There is medicine to counteract this, but I do not know whether that is safe or desireable.

4. Any time a critter is put under ansesthetic, complications can happen. I have a friend who spayed an older bitch, and right after the spay, her ten year old bitch suddenly started to have siezures. People can develop siezure disorders due to anesthetic issues. I cannot see why dogs cannot. And dogs can die while under the knife. I know as many people personally that have lost their dogs to spay/neuter surgeries, as people who have lost their dogs to pyometra. 

5. There was a study that said that spayed females can become more aggressive. I do not have a marker to the study. But the female hormone created has a calming agent in it. It is not like getting rid of testosterone, it actually can work in the reverse. 

Lastly, I do not mind heat cycles, it is just part of owning bitches, and is not onerous to me. So I really do not have any good reason to spay. Beyond a certain age, if my dog is under for another reason unrelated to their reproductive system, then I might consider a spay at the same time.


----------



## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeSPAY!
> 
> I always wait until after the second heat for my girls. You want the hormones for normal growth, but once they are grown, do the spay....I've recently had a bunch of friends that just were too lazy to get the surgery for their dogs, but ended up with REALLY ill dogs and super $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ surgery from pyrometra. Scary scary.
> 
> ...


The next female we have will be spayed probably around the same time frame MRL mentions above. Not sure, but then again our next female will probably be years from now. Allie was spayed when she came to us from rescue (she was about 1 yrs old) Meeka, however, was my husband's dog (and then ours) he had from a pup that I knew from about 4 yrs old to 12 yrs old.. She had an emergency spay when she was 5 due to pyometra, so the details are fuzzy to me as I was not living with her, but she was SICK. I remember visiting her in the hospital.

I asked my husband right now while I was typing this why he did not spay her earlier, I asked before but he never really had a response. He said quote " I was ignorant" NOW, I am not in any way shape or form saying that people that do not spay their dogs are ignorant, I don't think he is saying that either, please do not take it that way. Just thought that was an interesting gut response from him, as he was the one that went through all of this with her. She was never a breeding dog/or was bred, he just never spayed her, as he thought it was natural to let her be. She was a great dog, never any real temperament or health problems with the exception of severe HD. She had an FHO at age seven, so I wouldn't think that was related to the spay? Any thoughts on that?

It was along time ago and we would have to dig up vet records but after her pyometra (which she survived and lived another 7 years) he says when all said and done it was between 3-5,000 dollars for everything that happened during that period of time with the pyo (cannot remember exactly but think it is on the upper end of the estimate). And most importantly she was sicker than a dog. I know not all cases of pyometra are that severe.

Am I saying that all females that are not spayed will get pyometra? Absolutely not. Am I saying that people are ignorant for not spaying females? Heck No! But am I saying that I would rather spay my next female (as non-breeders) at around 1 yrs old vs EVER having the chance that we witness/ have a dog go through what Meeka did? Yup. 

I am just not of the belief right now (and that could change if some solid research come out, I am open in my views) that a dog/bitch that is n/s is going to live any less of a healthy long life than a dog/bitch that is not n/s. Nothing changed for Meeka after her spay, she was happy and lived a good life until age 12. 

Selzer I think your reasons are very valid and well thought out







good for you! I hope other owners think through things as thoroughly as you have.

On the topic, we just had our male neutered at age 3.5. Wanted to wait for development and such, probably could have done it sooner. Allie, our female, like I said was around 1-2 when she was spayed, is now 3.5. Our sample size is small only having had 3 GSD's but she has been the healthiest and even tempered of all 3, though the earliest one to get "fixed."


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocSome folks never spay and their dog lives a full wonderful life. Some spay laterin life due to health concerns. One thing for certain (backed up by a recent study) spaying too early IS NOT the way to go.
> 
> I would wait as long as possible before thinking about it.


if it is the study i am thinking of regarding early spay and longevity, i consider it to have such a tiny sample size as to be incomplete at best in its conclusions.

i still consider the known risks of mammary cancer to outweigh known risks of spaying early, therefore i choose to spay before the first heat.

the few people i know who had truly "accidental" litters had also proclaimed that they would be diligent and their dog would never get pregnant. it happens every day. id say anyone who does not have an absolute foolproof way of preventing this should spay.


----------



## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

So I expressed that badly - there are numerous threads about this already - I would look those up.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog asked about is already too old for any real benefit to be had for spaying early with regards to mammary cancer. 

Anyone who does not have a foolproof way of preventing pregnancy, has a containment problem and maybe shouldn't own GSDs. I have no patience for the oopse litter. It is almost as bad as allowing your dog to bite someone. It hurts everyone by giving proponents of speuter legislation ammunition. 

Blaming the kids or the husband is just another excuse. If you want to keep your dog, you HAVE to contain it properly. It may be that first or second cycle when it truly tests your confinement. But something the OP said about his bitch stays at home or doesn't wander really does make me a bit nervous. This is not something the bitch or dog decides to do or not, it is something that if there is any way possible, they will, hands down. We have to make sure there is no way possible. We should do that regardless of the dog's reproductive status.


----------



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

So according to you selzer, the majority of people on this board or really almost anyone who owns any dog shouldn't have one because they don't have the same set up as you?


----------



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chance's MomSo according to you selzer, the majority of people on this board or really almost anyone who owns any dog shouldn't have one because they don't have the same set up as you?


Where is that said???
Selzer has GREAT points.......


----------



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Selzer said that if there is any way for the dog to get pregnant then they have a containment problem. Most dog owners do not have cement kennels, if they have any fencing it is typically a basic chain link, wooden, ect type fence. This means there is a risk of the dog jumping, climbing, digging under, ect. There are also risk of the door not always being shut correctly for another example of an oops I'm a human and make mistakes moment which could lead to a pregnancy. How many people can honestly say they physically go check every door on their fence to make sure it is for sure locked and not just somewhat latched but looks like it is completely locked. How many who say they always do can honestly say there hasn't been once or twice they let the dogs out without more than just looking to see they are shut since they plan to come right back out after using the bathroom, grabbing a drink, ect?


----------



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm not saying they don't have good points I'm just saying that most people don't have the same fool proof set up and it isn't uncommon for people to underestimate their dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I will not apologize or take back my statement. I will go farther into the hole. 

Leaving a dog in a fenced area, a yard, or kennel is not ok. Unless you have a fool proof method of keeping your dog home, then your dog should not be outside on its own. If you cannot manage this, than maybe you should not own a large, intelligent, powerful working breed that has a reputation.

Someone who has trained their farm dogs from puppies on up, can possibly leave them on the property protecting the house and barns. I never would, but I could see this being a possibility. If that person has an intact bitch, she had better have a foolproof method to keep her home.

People do not need a concrete kennel, they can keep the dog crated in the house when they are not home. The crate or kennel or covered x pen would have to be a good construction and escape proof, especially if there are intact males and females in residence. 

When you are home, people who choose to have intact dogs of both sexes need to be able to keep them separated during seasons. Playing musical crates, going outside with each individually. It is a couple of weeks a year. Some people even kennel one or the other.

But if you cannot be sure of your containment, then you are a liability. There is always the chance that a dog might take the meter reader or UPS man as a preditor and if the dog can get to them, it hurts us all. A dog may see the deer in the adjoining field and work his way out of a fence. Then it gets shot or run over or any host of things. 

People should not own these dogs if they cannot contain them. A single fence is generally not enough unless you are outside with them.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When you consider your lack of making sure your fences are shut might mean a death penalty to your dog, than no it is not acceptable. 

Why is it not ok for someone to let their dog get roasted in her car, but it is ok for someone to let the dogs out back, gate is open and the dogs get run over by a car? 

Your dogs may slip out the door in the front and get creamed in the road, or bite the receding mailman, either of which might end up with a dead dog. 

We go to classes to ensure that our dogs do not forge through doors ahead of us, and if they do, their recall is solid. 

GSD owners cannot be complacent about containing their dogs because it leads to tragedy. It is wishful thinking that a dog, once altered is NEVER going to rush through the door, or go out of an open gate. I hear it all the time as a reason to spay/neuter and it makes me cringe. People should not give into a false sense of security just because the animal is fixed.


----------



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerWhen you consider your lack of making sure your fences are shut might mean a death penalty to your dog, than no it is not acceptable.
> 
> Why is it not ok for someone to let their dog get roasted in her car, but it is ok for someone to let the dogs out back, gate is open and the dogs get run over by a car?
> 
> ...


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Doc One thing for certain (backed up by a recent study) spaying too early IS NOT the way to go.












Also, the post, Respect the Ovaries, should be in our Health Index/Sticky.


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i will not bring up names here, but i clearly recall another thread where we were discussing the idea that "nobody is perfect and everybody makes mistakes" (this was in regard to someone not knowing a dog was left in a car and cooking to death)

at any rate, said member, in making their point, made it clear that no one is perfect and made it a point to admit that even she herself accidentally left a latch on a gate open (but discovered it before it was too late). had a bitch in heat gotten out or a neighborhood male gotten in, well...nuff said. (in addition to the aforementioned dangers of a loose dog).

this is not to chastise anyone, but to say spaying is a reasonable alternative for those who, while diligent in watching their dogs, want to be 100% sure there will never be an "oops" litter


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Doc One thing for certain (backed up by a recent study) spaying too early IS NOT the way to go.
> ...


it was a fairly valid study as it relates to women, and if the study in that post had involved a significant sample of dogs, id feel better about its relevance to female dogs. (the study on women involved 29,000 women (if i remeber correctly), while the sample size of the dogs was in the hundreds. a sample that small can be too easily skewed by a variety of factors.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: roxy84it was a fairly valid study as it relates to women, and if the study in that post had involved a significant sample of dogs, id feel better about its relevance to female dogs. (the study on women involved 29,000 women (if i remeber correctly), while the sample size of the dogs was in the hundreds. a sample that small can be too easily skewed by a variety of factors.


I don't find the size of the dog study enough to discount the findings, particularly since it aligns with the common sense that we have found with women's studies: http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerLeaving a dog in a fenced area, a yard, or kennel is not ok.


So I guess everyone else here who 1. doesn't have Selzer's setup 2. has a full time job 3. keeps their dog in a fenced yard or kennel 4. cannot add an extension to their house should not own a German Shepherd Dog. 

First, we were talking about spaying, now we are talking about yard set ups and how most of the GSD owners here are irresponsible because we keep our dogs contained in different ways.

We are all different people with different lives, different dogs, different jobs, who live in different areas. Some of the "holier than thou" statements I've seen on this thread are much too pompous for me.


----------



## sleepybree03 (Dec 14, 2007)

Wow thanks for everyone's response! I c this can be a hot topic lol My GSDs are inside house dogs and only go outside supervised. I do have a fenced yard but since I live in a big city, I want to make sure they do not try to escape or that they don't bark too long at the neighbor's dog, etc. 

These are the articles I've read: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


This next study I read was done on rottweilers so I obviously did not want to generalize this to all large breeds that's why I wanted to ask GSD owners of their experiences/thoughts ( the link was already posted here).

I want to ask a vet about my dog's particular risks for any of these diseases but most vets offer the spay/neuter automatically and indiscriminately and don't really offer any details. It seems that, just like everything else ( even in humans), you may fix one health problem but may cause others lol

Oh, Also, my female is already over 2 yrs old..i read spaying to decrease chances of mammary tumors is most effective if done before her first heat cycle...so would it even matter at this point to spay only for that reason?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What bothers me is that people seem to think that because a dog is intact it is standing inside the front door just waiting for their opportunity to rush out the moment the door is opened so they can hook up with a mate and make an oopse litter. 

I have a lot of intact females and have had three separate intact males, and not one of them was like this at all. 

Roxy84, you seem to be more concerned about an oopse litter than you are a dead dog. So you will get yours spayed to ensure there are not oopses if one does get out. I am more concerned with a seriously injured or dead dog, so I will make sure one of mine does not get out so I don't have to worry about the oopse.

Bouyant Dog, you seem to have an axe to grind, but I will say again, that I do not think people should leave a dog, intact or neutered in a fenced yard for the work day. Inside a kennel within a fenced yard is fine -- that is my set up. But it is not the ONLY way to keep an animal safe. If your house is secure, then you can keep them inside. If you are afraid they will go through a window, then you will need to keep them crated while you are not home. Having a fenced in area for the dog to run in is fine, but it should be for the dog while you are out there. 

A dog does not sit around waiting for the door to open so they can dash through and get away, They do not wait for a gate to be unlatched. But a dog who has some time on their paws WILL find the weak spot in your fence, they will dig under or climb over if it is possible, they have the time, and there is anything to lure them on the other side. That does not need to be a dog or a bitch in heat, it could be squirrels, or deer, or little kids with sticks, or cats, or any number of things. 

Let's go a step farther. Do you believe that someone who cannot control their dog should not own the dog? I mean a person whose dog will literally drag her across the street to attack another dog or person. Should that person own a dog they cannot control? 

I believe that a person who cannot contain a dog, should not own the dog, because you cannot control a dog if you do not know where it is. 

People, for every one of us, here on this site, there are probably a dozen GSD owners who aren't trying to learn everything about them, who are not committed to training, who are not concerned about whether or not their dog adds to the gene pool, who are not worried about the best foods, and safe toys, and kennels and fencing. If we here, who live and breathe GSDs, do not have solidarity about keeping our dogs safe, than what a battle is it that we must overcome. When people let their dogs get out and make shepherd crosses, eight or so puppies come into the world, somd of which may not find a loving home the first time around. When people let their dogs out and they end up biting someone, the incidents of breed discrimination, where we live, homeowner's insurance, breed banning, and the like goes way up. 

Getting your dog spayed because someday it may get out and get pregnant is simply not an ok thought in my opinion.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I suppose we differ in opinion on the subject of securing dogs. As a firefighter, I run 3 miles a day or engage in arduous backcountry hiking with my dog to keep in shape AND obedience train her every day. As a result, escaping my property due to boredom or breaking windows, doors or gates doesn't happen, and I can go on a fire knowing she is safe in my fenced yard, physically and mentally tired out and sleeping in the sun. My dog has never been loose, and she was spayed when I adopted her as a rescue. We have different situations, as you have many more dogs than me, so different setups seem to work well for each of us. I respect your opinions and the way you secure your dogs, and I hope you respect mine. Our differences make the world work. Sincerely, Christina


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Roxy84, you seem to be more concerned about an oopse litter than you are a dead dog. So you will get yours spayed to ensure there are not oopses if one does get out. I am more concerned with a seriously injured or dead dog, so I will make sure one of mine does not get out so I don't have to worry about the oopse.
> 
> 
> ...


I had just a couple things I wanted to reply too. 

1) Freya, even when she wasn't in heat, DID wait by the door waiting to dash out. She would bowl you over to escape. We solved the problem by keeping her leashed 100% of the time.
2) now that she is in heat?? she has to be leashed constantly again. It's just her personality. I have to keep her tethered to me or crated even when all the doors are closed because she goes through the house jumping on the windows.

Rayden, as a pup, would lay at the front door and whine/howl when the neighbor's dogs were in heat. 

So, if the adults aren't home, my oldest DD can't even take her out to potty because she isn't strong enough to control her. When she isn't in heat, it's not a problem as Freya is excellent on leash. Even though we have a fence, the dogs could clear it easily. (We rent and can't put in a taller fence).

Some dogs won't run away no matter what. Rayden's idea of running away is to jump the backyard fence and come around to the front door to bang on the screen. When he found out I wasn't going to let him in, he stopped jumping the fence. He just waits by the back door. Freya? she isn't left outside by herself for even 20 seconds because her favorite activity is to play in the highway. We had to close up Rayden's doggie door in the basement because Freya is just a runner. no big deal to us, though I think Rayden is a bit annoyed.

If you are carrying groceries into the house, she has to be crated because an open door, to her, is an invitation to go exploring. Partially her upbringing, partially her personality.

so, even if your dogs are only outside under supervision, there are SOME dogs that will go if they are a bitch in heat. or after a bitch in heat. If someone thinks that is a possibility, I see nothing wrong with them taking steps to eliminate it. It's just that some dogs have a higher desire to run than others when mating is involved. 

My co-worker who breeds yorkies just had an oops litter. The female climbed a 6foot!! chain link fence to get out of her run and another 6' fence to get into the run with the male. Sure, a cover would have prevented it, and the outside portion of the runs are roofed. But the inner runs are inside, so just fences. After she got what she wanted, the female climbed back out of the male's run and back into her own. (They keep video surveillance in the kennel). In 20 years of dogs, they've never had this happen. Some are just more determined than others. 

ETA: the yorkie bitch? she is 4lbs and less than 6 inches tall!


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> Roxy84, you seem to be more concerned about an oopse litter than you are a dead dog. So you will get yours spayed to ensure there are not oopses if one does get out. I am more concerned with a seriously injured or dead dog, so I will make sure one of mine does not get out so I don't have to worry about the oopse.


you are wrong. 

you are the one who said you had no tolerance for oopse litters. i was only responding to you intolerance to an oopse litter, since you were indeed the one who made the point in the aforementioned thread that you had left a gate unlatched.

i would have much more concern about my dogs getting loose and killed, solen, etc... than her getting impregnated, even if she was not spayed. i chose to spay because i have 14 fenced acres, my dogs have free reign of this (but only when i am outside, and even then they are within sight 95% of the time) and while i periodically check the perimiter fencing, it would not be impossible for a determined male to work his way under during a few overnight hours. 

i may even choose not to spay my next dog, though i am not yet convinced that any detrimental effects of spaying are greater than the mammary cancer risk that is eliminated with an early spay. for me, that weighs in to the whole picture of whether i will do an early spay, but it would be inaccurate for me to say that is the only determining factor.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I looked through that thread and could not find that statement at all. could you please put a link to the thread? 

My latched gates open into the patio, which is latched, or the yard which is fenced around. The one side is latched from the outside and locked, the other is not latched because we never made a latch for it. It is wedged shut using a t-post and a shovel -- I know that sounds horrible, but it is solid. So I am a little flummuxed about the latch buisness. The only possible issue with my not latching something is a bitch fight. I would have to fail to latch the bitch's kennel AND the dog's kennel in order for me to be concerned with my dog getting my bitch. 

I have written about Arwen getting loose, some eight years ago. I had a box kennel, six foot cheap chain link fencing, two 13x7' kennels constructed in such a way to make one 25'x13' kennel. My sister and I put it together without a fence puller and then the king canopy that we had put over top collapsed the whole thing at one point. 

Anyway it was a sloppy job at best and on Christmas Arwen got out. There was no outer fence. She was loose and lost for 19 days in the worst part of winter. Had she been run over by a car, or killed by hunters, or shot by a farmer, or smooshed in the road, it would have been my fault completely. Had she bitten someone when she was scared or hurt, then I might have been ordered to have her euthanized. It was a wake up call. I kept her inside after that until I had an outer fence constructed.

I have also written about my brother's dog who was my guest for 2 years. She did go through the window three separate times. Always it was the window to the back yard, two of those window issues where her going through to get IN the house rather than out of the house.

I never let the dogs out in far field without being with them, so when I had the pups, and were transporting them from the back yard to the front yard, a couple of times I left that gate ajar, but as I can see it from the puppy pen, and no way do I let them out without being there, there is not really any way that I could lose my dog through there. 

Having lost Arwen for those weeks makes me hyper vigilent about leaving dogs with nothing but a single chain link fence between them and injury, death, and what I feel is much less a concern, the oopse litter. I guess I am kind of like an x-smoker. 

At the time, I was one of the dozen or so ignorant owners for each enlightened owner. People on a site like this one have no business not being careful and protecting their dogs because we all have seen thread after thread about the consequences of not being careful.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I hear ya!







That is why I built a securely fenced yard for my dog.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Not to mention my dog goes nearly EVERYWHERE with me and is rarely left home alone in the first place. Mental exercise and physical training such as at least a half hour of running a dog or arduous backcountry hiking DAILY is going to eliminate 99% of escape attempts. I have seen that companion dogs rarely have the desire to escape from their guardians.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is funny, but even my pup, who is six months, for months now, I could just let her out the front door and they charge the back of my vehicle and wait for me to get there and let them in. 

When we get home, I open the crates, and they bolt right to the front door. If I have a bitch that I know is in heat, I get a lead and am dragged to my vehicle. But it is only a precaution. I have never had one WANT to do anything different if I am right there. 

If I ran each of my dogs for a half an hour each day, I would be skinny or dead. As I am neither, I cannot be secure in their being left in a yard. Because I put an electric wire fence inside my fenceing for a while, none of my dogs go near any of my fencing. But I am still not convinced they would be safe in the yard. 

Because of how sue crazy our society is, I am afraid that if something were to happen, I would not only lose the dog in question, but the rest of my dogs as well. Not being able to obtain homeowners insurance would mean losing my house, losing my house would mean losing my dogs. So I cannot be complacent. 

Some people on here have survived having their dog bite someone. They still own dogs, and they have managed. But because I have a trailer which is more difficult anyway to insure, and a large loan on it -- many times the tax apprasal, I just feel like I am on a precipice, and if I stray to the left or right it will all tumble down. 

Losing my dogs would be like losing a kid, as they are the only kids I have. I do not want to think about that. I know they will die before me, and I can take that. But losing them all, when they are young, and full of life, and not being able to ensure them good homes, possibly euthanizing some of them. I cannot risk it.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I definitely understand.


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI looked through that thread and could not find that statement at all. could you please put a link to the thread?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1184983&page=0&fpart=4

it doesnt even sound like any dogs could have actually gotten out, but the point is mistakes can happen where a dog gets out (or in). so, i think it goes too far to say if someone cant be 100% certain that a dog will not ever accidentally get out or a male dog get in that maybe they shouldnt own a gsd. most people on this board take pretty good care to make sure this never happens. spaying is just added insurance that there is 0% chance of a litter. some people feel the health considerations make it such that spaying is not worth that added insurance. i respect their position on this, but i respect people that choose to spay (and feel the the health issues do not outweigh the benefits) as well. still, i dont think a dog being spayed/neutered should make anyone less dilligent about making reasonable efforts to keep their dogs safe.

if folks do their best to keep their dogs healthy, happy, and safe then i have no qualms about their choices on spay/neuter.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, if you go farther down in that thread, I did relate a situation where I realized Far Field was open from when I was packing puppies back and forth. 

The x-pen was shut, and in the moment, I might worry about that, the little monsters spent half their existance getting under my feet, so if that gate was open, I would've been tripping over them. 

This meant I had only one fence between my puppies and Jenna and the road. I was home. I could hear them in the house. I knew Jenna would be with them, but seeing that gate open in the photos made me terrified. 

My point was that we should not HATE people for making mistakes. We should not want them to rot in jail, or to never have a dog again. 

Once a mistake has been made, ok, learn something from it and move on. I built my outer fence and then my kennels after my early mistake. 

But before a devestating mistake happens, it is then when we should ensure that our containment situation is sufficient. 

No, I really do not have any tolerance for an oopse litter. There are probably some true oopses, but I expect the vast majoirty are litters produced by people who wanted puppies or who were not against having puppies. They turn them in when they realize what it entails, or when they have a bunch of messy pups to care for.

If we allowed our dogs to starve to death, because we did not realize they might need to eat, no one would run to embrace these people. But leaving the dog where it might get out, or letting the dog get connected with another is so much more acceptable, to the point where people feel it is impossible to avoid. Just because pregnant bitches and bitches and pups are dropped off at shelters does not mean their owners did not knowingly allow them to connect at the proper time.


----------



## rome_lucyGSD (Mar 6, 2010)

I completely agree with spaying/neutering animals! You know what they say..."if you can't feed em, don't breed 'em" And it also decreases the stray population and shelter populations.

However, I am just curious, is it true that if you spay your dog too early, does it stunt their growth?

My 7mo female GSD was spayed when she was about 12 weeks.
She right now probably weighs about 30-40 lbs. and is very short.
She looks like a mini germ. shep. everyone thinks she is mixed with a sheltie or something (which is possible, since she did come from a shelter) but she looks purebred shepherd. everything matches with the breed standards, but she is just tiny.

If the rescue I got her from would have waited until she was a little older...would she be getting a little bigger than what she is?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have heard that if you spay/neuter your dog before they are a year or older they wont grow to their true potential. I dont know if that is true or if it is not but I decided to listen to it and my GSD will be a year next week and he is not neutered and he is 85 pounds and could get a little bigger. The Vet said when I do neuter him he could weigh anywhere from 95 to 100 pounds.


----------



## northwoods (Mar 6, 2010)

rome_lucyGSD said:


> However, I am just curious, is it true that if you spay your dog too early, does it stunt their growth?
> 
> My 7mo female GSD was spayed when she was about 12 weeks.
> She right now probably weighs about 30-40 lbs. and is very short.
> ...


I have heard conflicting evidence on this as well. Most studies say that spaying and neutering causes the growth hormones to continue producing after the surgery.
Many dogs get to be much larger than their standard sizes because of altering earlier than 2 years.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

A must read

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

sleepybree03 said:


> Hello! My female is a little over 2 yrs old and I am debating whether to spay or not. I have been reading some conflicting articles on spaying females. Most agree that spaying them before their first heat dramatically decreases their chances of mammary cancer ( but she has already had several heat cycles so I don't know if this would still apply to me). However, there are negatives to spaying as well. I am not worried about pregnancy b/c she is an inside dog and she is very trained and does not run off or anything like that. Any advice? Do spayed dogs live longer, healtheir lives?


Spay her, I've had THREE friends who didn't spay their bitches and ended up with them almost dying from pyrometra. Really upsetting and their dogs were very ill.

I always wait until after my females second heat cycle, then into the vet's they go. Nice to have one less thing to worry about healthwise.


----------



## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I VOTE NO!!! there are many good reasons for and agin but mostly it comes down to your personal preference and wether or not your bitch is a good candidate to contribute to the GSD gene pool. this is one thing that may endanger the species in the future, modern k-9's may be experiencing genome loss in their respective breeds. especially with the fewer numbers of good responsible breeders. however this may be contrasted against a higher number of pet owners. so who knows. my preference is i like puppies and i am a good responsible breeder. I only keep high end good dogs that are healthy and have excelent dispositions. among other things.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I vote no as well. 

I do not believe in putting a dog in danger, under anesthetic, to have a surgery that can cause serious problems, hormone deficiency, incontinance, complications due to anesthetic up to and including death, in order to prevent the liklihood of certain illnesses (mammary cancer and pyometra).

I believe we agree to owning a dog or bitch, and all their associated pieces parts: tail, ears, uterine horns, bark. We then train the dog and contain the dog so that accidents do not happen. 

I believe that the hormones in question are for more than just reproducing. Doctors do not like to give full oviohysterectomies, even to women who have half a dozen children, or who are beyond child bearing age. They will generally only do so if there is a serious problem with the parts in question. Afterwards the women often need to take hormone replacement therapies, and have surgeries to tie up the bladder. In bitches the bladder and the uteris are connected, and incontinance IS a big deal. Some people end up having to give their dogs medicine for the rest of their lives due to incontinence problems after a spay. And as for the hormones, dogs are often neutered due to behavior issues that may be positively impacted by neutering. Not so for females, in fact, the reverse can be true, because the hormone produced has a calming agent in it. When this is removed, the spayed bitch can become more aggressive. 

There is nothing responsible in spaying or neutering in terms of all the dogs in shelters. Responsible dog owners do not allow their dogs to be in a situation where they COULD conceive a litter. 

There IS convenience. A bitch's heat cycle is messy, and it can be a nuisance for training, etc. I think that if someone wants to spay their bitch for this reason it is fine and many bitches are spayed every year without any immediate problems, and some never have issues resulting from the spay. 

I think there are more issues with spay/neuter than we will ever know because veterinarians push it so much, they will not be keen to admit that this or that issue stemmed from early spay/neuter.


----------



## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

to this point, i still believe the likelihood of mammary cancer and other health concern outweigh the possible health concerns that are borne from spaying.

my dogs have free reign of alot of acreage. the perimiter is fenced, but would not be completely unbreachable from a determined dog given enough time (though my dogs are not out of sight long enough and are only out when i am outside the house). i am happy to provide my dogs with this lifestyle, but i spay to eliminate even the smallest risk that exists. health considerations do play into the equation for me and if i am ever convinced that any potential health problems created by spaying outweigh the benefits, i will reconsider my poisition.

anecdotally, every female ive ever owned has been spayed by before the age of 1 and all have lived well past their breeds life expectancy, so i will admit my personal experience influences my attitude.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never had a dog spayed but that's because i've never
had a female. i've never had my males neutered but that's
because i never had them neutered.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Everytime the dog is in heat, there is a chance for some thing to happen - tumors in the uterus, cervical cancer, pyometra.

Spaying is the best way to avoid these possibilities. Breeding dogs should be spayed when their breeding careers are over to avoid the same issues.

Lee


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

This is the information gathered from published and refereaded scientific journal articles - the entire report is in the link I posted yesterday.

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may
exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the
odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.
On the positive side, spaying female dogs​

• 
​​if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common​ 
malignant tumors in female dogs​


nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female

dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs​

•reduces the risk of perianal fistulas​

removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs​


if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a​ 
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis​


increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by​ 
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds​


triples the risk of hypothyroidism​ 
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many

associated health problems​


causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs​ 
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4​ 
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs

spayed before puberty​


doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors​ 
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

It's your call, but make your decision wisely, based on scientific studies not what "someone told you" or your vet that is ready when the pup is 6 months old.
​


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I got Arwen spayed at almost seven years because she was under anyways and I would not ever breed her again (retired). Since then, she has had urinary tract infections, a low thyroid number, and I am afraid some spay incontinence as well. I do not intend to do this again unless I have a problem.


----------



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Had mine spayed later in life, she was fine, made it to fifteen and died from bloat, but just the day before that she was _running_.. Incontinence can happen with females as they age, Dutch was incontinent for a while.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But Arwen is not yet nine. No way will I let her share my bed if she will leak on it. this is the sad part about having a dog that is not old but has spay incontinance. It happens to young dogs. A fifteen year old dog is probably not leaping up onto the bed anymore.


----------



## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

roxy84 said:


> *to this point, i still believe the likelihood of mammary cancer and other health concern outweigh the possible health concerns that are borne from spaying.*
> 
> my dogs have free reign of alot of acreage. the perimiter is fenced, but would not be completely unbreachable from a determined dog given enough time (though my dogs are not out of sight long enough and are only out when i am outside the house). i am happy to provide my dogs with this lifestyle, but i spay to eliminate even the smallest risk that exists. health considerations do play into the equation for me and if i am ever convinced that any potential health problems created by spaying outweigh the benefits, i will reconsider my poisition.
> 
> anecdotally, every female ive ever owned has been spayed by before the age of 1 and all have lived well past their breeds life expectancy, so i will admit my personal experience influences my attitude.


All well and good until you lose your heart dog that you waited years for to a botched spay by a butcher with a vet degree.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That is SO sad, I cannot even imagine. 

Most dogs at some point need to have some kind of procedure done...females, even in those studies I believe, should eventually be spayed before a pyometra, etc happens, we have to have our dogs operated on for bloat, orthopedic issues, or other things. We need to find a vet we feel comfortable with should our dogs need these surgeries, many of which will save their lives. Because if we need to have something done, we want to make sure that we have that relationship with them and trust that while there is no 100% they are capable and will try their best. 

Urinary Incontinence in Dogs treatment information for incontinence.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Pyometra is a bacterial infection that can occur in intact females. Statically, pyometra affects about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs.

If it were me and I was concerned about pyometra, I would opt for an uterine spay where they only remove the uterus.

again, it's the owners call.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Doc said:


> *Pyometra is a bacterial infection that can occur in intact females. Statically, pyometra affects about 23% of intact female dogs;* pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs.
> 
> If it were me and I was concerned about pyometra, I would opt for an uterine spay where they only remove the uterus.
> 
> again, it's the owners call.


To me, 1 out of 4 bitches getting pyometra is a HUGE number and not one I'm willing to take a chance on unless I was going to breed. Way rather schedule a spay surgery with a vet I know and trust, than take a chance on having to have and emergency surgery with the vet on duty and my now SICK dog if this flares up (and it's always weekends/nights/holidays when my dogs get afflicted).


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Pyometra is not always deadly. There are two forms, opened and closed - closed being the worst because it is hard to detect and often fatal. Open pyometra is still bad but is slower to advance because of drainage.

The statement reads it affects 23% of intact dogs and kills about 1%. So statically, 22% that are affected do not die. Don't misread the figures and jump to conclusions. 

Like I said, it's the owners call.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Statistics are just that unless it's you with the pyometra! Being dogcentric, I personally wouldn't want my uterus to fill with pus, but maybe that's just me!


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Well I'm sure you don't, as well as others. To base your decision to spay solely on the chances of weather your dog will get pyometra (after all, 77% are not affected) ... I guess it is sort of like the glass being 75% full or 25% empty. 

And does the removal of the uterus outweigh all the benefits of not removing it? Again, based on the fact that 77% of intact females are not affected.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

To me it does. Also if a female goes into heat twice a year at one month at a time, for 12 years (hopefully at least) that is a a full 2 years of their lives. So I include that in when I am weighing things out. 

Like you say, up to the owner, and I add my caveat, but only if they are able to have an intact animal without an oops.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JeanKBBMMMAAN,

Do you think that bitches suffer when they are in heat? 

Being a woman, I would have had my pieces parts out long ago if I could have. But a woman's body and a bitch's body are very different. Three weeks of bleeding every six months or so is not like having a monthly cycle where year in and year out you have PMS and then cramps, pain, bloating, bleeding, depression, etc, etc. 

You would never guess my girls are in heat unless you see some red spots and check their backsides. They can and want to do everything they do when they are not in season.

Physiologically, every heat cycle bambards the uteris with progesterone. And I believe that without having litters, this will eventually cause a bitch to become sterile as she ages. So bitches having their first litter at age six or seven are very uncommon. And as years march on, their chances of having complications due to their body system's natural aging increases. 

But is this a reason to cause the artificial aging that removing the hormone generating devices may create? I lost my Arwen last night. I have to wonder that if she had not had the major surgery removing her pieces parts while having a c-section, maybe she would still be around. Had they just done the c-section, they would not have had to spend so much time inside her cutting off bleeders. She would not have had to have been out so long. She would have maintained her hormones, and the aging that I recognized since the spay may have been accelerated becuase of it. Or, it could have just been her time to go. I will probably never know. 

And it is probably best not to think too deeply about it today. But in the seven years she had her parts she did not get pyometra and she was not miserable due to heat cycles. There is always the possibility that in my attempt to save her from one evil, I have made her more susceptable to another.


----------



## stephen4036 (Feb 22, 2010)

my dog had to be spayed from the rescue, she got spayed at 2-3 years so... but my last dog died of mammory cancer b/c she was spayed at 6 years old.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't think they suffer, but around here, there are no leash laws, no one uses a leash, even at the stupid vet office people come in with dogs off lead, so my girls would be locked up 2 years of their lives! When I got Bella, I didn't realize how tantalizing she was (she was in heat when I got her - and she was not happy about it) and had no idea how male dogs would react until the one and only walk I took her on ended with us being chased home by a mini Schnauzer!

Don't second guess (easy for me to say) about Arwen. The studies that people quote are always about pediatric speuters and recommend late speuters for all animals. So you went with the recommendations.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Having many dogs and just me, if one or two or three bitches are in heat, they get to stay home. They are not "locked up" but they are in their kennels. Because I have the kennels and near field, and far field securely fenced, I can let them run while I am out there and not worry about them being molested by and scurvy mutt. 

If I had just one or two dogs, it may be a whole other story, especially if I was training them for something like SAR. The down time, might be too much. They do not HAVE to stay down, but it does make it much easier with regards to suiters. 

I have seen a guy walking his bitch with a baseball bat. Uhm, I will just leave mine at home for a few weeks, and no foul.

Lots of people with fewer dogs remark how theirs needs their walk every day. Mine have never gotten a walk every day so it really is not hard on them to wait until they are out of heat. I can see how it can be a real pain for other people, so I think spaying for convenience is a valid reason to spay. It seems that both ways there are risks involved, risks to spaying and risks to not spaying, which leaves it down to a personal decision. 

I do not think anyone should be berated for not spaying or spaying. My only pet peeve is people using the "roaming dog/bitch" reason for getting a dog speutered, or for strongly encouraging everyone else to do so, especially when they get angry if you decide not to do so.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My GSD, Molly, is spayed, and is perfectly healthy and fine.My other GSD, Tanner is neutered, and is perfectly healthy and fine.We don't have either dog in a kennel or pen, they have a nice backyard to play in and relax and the house.We have french doors, but we let our dogs outside by themselves.If we lived in open acres and a big farm, then yeah we would be watching them.Its not only "the got out and got knocked up" exuse,its also some people have 2 dogs, a male and female, and neither are fixed, then come a oops litter.Also, some people may take their dog to a dog beach or dog park and their dog isnt fixed, and while at that dog park or beach, they see another dog that isnt fixed, they get frisky and oops here come the puppies.Some people brush it off as showing dominance, and in some cases it is and some cases it isnt.

Its someone's choice if they choose to spay/neuter their dog.I thank god we did!When I walk Molly, people will compliment her, I say thank you, and they ask "Is she fixed?". I respond "No." Sometimes, they say "Oh ok. Just wondering, because I have a male German Shepherd." Or some just walk away.And I dont think the Germand Shepherd breed will die out anytime soon, in reference to someone else's comment.

The shelter I work at provides financial aid to those who can't afford the surgery for spay/neuter.And every animal there gets check ups and is eventually spayed and neutered.

But it is someone's choice whether or not they spay/neuter their dogs.All my dogs have been fixed and nothing was wrong with them.They lived long, happy healthy lives.If someone chooses not to fix their dogs, then thats them, let them take their chances, they are doing what they think is best for their dog or dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jessiewessie99, Have you ever owned an intact bitch? Were you ever present when a dog was bred to a bitch? 

I always have a little chuckle when people say that their dog has this oopse litter because they were at the dog park with their in heat female and she got together with an intact male and...

Now if it is a silent heat -- a phenomenen that I have never dealt with, I can understand having an in-heat female at a dog park. But even if the female is in those couple of days after ovulation when she can actually become pregnant, I would have to ask where in the world were the dog and bitch's owners while their animals got all the way around the bases.

I mean the don't just oogle each other for a second and tie in the next second. There is a whole lot of sniffing, and then some unmistakeable antics. The male generally mounts the female several times unsuccessfully before he actually manages to do the deed. Sometimes he mounts her head. 

This is the thing. People say they know someone whose dogs tied through a fence. Uhm, well, being present during conception on many occasions, there is not one occassion where that would have worked at all. 

Often times the stud dog owner holds the bitch and guides the dog. The dog and bitch would definitely get their eventually, but it is ceratainly not something you would know was happening if you were right there. 

And two owners, the dog's owner and the bitch's owner SHOULD be able to connect their leashes and pull their animals apart LONG before any mating takes place. I do not mean pulling them apart if tied, but there is plenty of time and plenty of signs that a mating could take place if we do not step in. 

If you own a bitch and a dog, it is possible that you could miss the fact that he is paying a whole lot more attention to her than usual. I never could, I mean, my boy had his nose velcro'd to my girls nether region for days before the mating. 

Personally, I believe that the vast majority of oops litters are people who either want their bitch to have puppies, or do not care if she does or not. Faced with what it entails, some will drop the bitch off at a shelter and claim oops. For some rediculous reason it is more acceptable to have a litter by accident, than to have a planned litter.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have only owned a total of 4 dogs all my life.My family just decided to get our dogs spayed.The owners of my current dog's parents just didnt bother to get their male GSD or their female GSD fixed.The dogs were not related, and they just got together and my dog was born.She wasnt from a backyard breeder, because her parents owners werent intending on having a litter of puppie.That happens alot, people have male and female dogs they just dont get fixed and they have unexpected puppies.THere are many reasons why a female dog gets pregnant.

Like I said it was my family's choice to get our dog spayed like it was yuor choice not to get your dogs spayed.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

And I will probably get all my female dogs spayed, because I don't want to breed them, and I don't want to be known as a BYB or Bad Breeder.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There are usually people who just have 2 dogs that they didnt bother to get fixed and thats how some dogs come to be.Thats how my dog came to be.My last 2 dogs were brother and sister, we didnt want to have inbred dogs, or have and unexpected litter.Our 2 current dogs are not related, we don't want to breed them, or them to breed themselves.Plus our male dog was neutered when we got him, we got him at a shelter.We jsut chose to get our dogs fixed, and they are all healthy.My mom's dogs that she had growing up were all fixed, all the dogs my dad's family had when he was growing up were all fixed.They all lived happy healthy lives.We just want to be responsible dog owners.If someone chooses to get their dogs fixed or not is not my choice.Like I said before, its their choice, they are doing whats best for their dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can be responsible and have intact dogs, or you can be irresponsible and have intact dogs. The same is true about having spayed/neutered dogs. Being responsible and spay/neuter really have nothing to do with each other. Unfortunately, there are many people who have married these concepts. 

I think it is fine that you chose to spay/neuter your pets. I believe there are risks either way. Pregnancy for me is not a risk, because of how I manage them. But when you have a couple of pets that spend the majority of their time together, it makes it easier all around to have one or both fixed.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Its just nature, sometimes we can stop it sometimes we can't


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Also the fact that some coyotes are getting closer to cities, which is where I live, getting our dog spayed or neutered may come in handy.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in the country where there are coyotes. I do not know what spaying or neutering has to do with that. Please explain. 

It is natural, but it does not happen in a vaccume. If you have an intact bitch and an intact dog and leave them together unsupervised, yes you are likely to have a litter. If you are right there, like in a dog park, there should be no trouble recognizing what is going on in plenty of time.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> I live in the country where there are coyotes. I do not know what spaying or neutering has to do with that. Please explain.
> 
> It is natural, but it does not happen in a vaccume. If you have an intact bitch and an intact dog and leave them together unsupervised, yes you are likely to have a litter. If you are right there, like in a dog park, there should be no trouble recognizing what is going on in plenty of time.


Even though its rare, Coyotes may breed with a intact female dog. Yes it is rare, but its mating time there is no stopping!Especially if the dogs are the same size as coyotes. My aunt lives where coyotes are popular and has had neighbors whose dogs gave birth to coydog pups.

And plus usually intact female dogs are not allowed in parks if in heat. But if your female is being humped by another male dog, the other owner may not do anything about it.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder though if the coyote dog pups are from a coyote raised as a pet. A pack of coyotes will generally kill a dog. They may draw a dog out by a female coyote in heat, and then kill it. 

I cannot imagine a bitch being bred by a wild coyote, but since I have no experience in that area, I will just have to say, wow.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

They were not kept as pets, plus there are loose dogs or dogs people owned but just let them roam.

I was walking with brother once and we came to this house and there was gate around the front yard and the gate to the drive way was open and laying there on the cement was a GSD. He wasn't on a leash or anything.

Thank god my brother and I turned around and walked away.

Its true, my aunt had a neighbor who had her female dog intact and took care of her dog. The dog was in the backyard, but a coyote got in and mated with her.She got her dog spayed after the litter was born. I don't remember what she did with the pups.


----------

