# Serious Question & Debate about when to admit that you are just not getting through



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

*Serious Question & Debate about when to admit that you are just not getting through*

When is enough, enough. 
When do you give up trying and take it a step forward and admit that you are not going to get through and that maybe it's the best to either release the dog from his demons?
Would you either have him put down or try to get him into different hands? Could you live if something happened with the next person?

Is it okay to put a dog down because of aggression issues and knowing that even you love that dog you couldn't live if something happened in the new home? 

So many people say "You have to try." and will shun you if you openly talk about putting a dog down and make it seem that you are just not good enough or that you don't try hard enough but when is enough, enough? 

When another dog gets killed or severely injured? When the dog actually attacked a human being? Even if you have the dog under control there can always be the point when everything gets out of control... and is it a good life for a dog to keep him contained at all times just to keep him alive? 

I am wondering about these things for quite some time...


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Sometimes I do think that there is nothing that can be done for aggression. However, these cases are extremely rare. But I don't doubt that they exist. Sometimes it really is best for the dog to be euthanized.

Honestly, how great is a truly aggressive dog's quality of life? I think it is best to put those dogs out of their misery. Because they are miserable.

To answer your question - I think the time would be when the dog's quality of life and wellbeing is suffering because of his/her aggression.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Very sorry for your dilemma. Try rehoming the dog. I'm sure you will let the next owner know about the situation and make sure (as you can) that the next owner is qualified to handle him. Also, get a signed waiver of any liability to you. If you can't do that then put him down before he hurts someone. Not too sure how miserable he is but just think how miserable you would be if he caused misery to someone else.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Very sorry for your dilemma. Try rehoming the dog. I'm sure you will let the next owner know about the situation and make sure (as you can) that the next owner is qualified to handle him. Also, get a signed waiver of any liability to you. If you can't do that then put him down before he hurts someone. Not too sure how miserable he is but just think how miserable you would be if he caused misery to someone else.


Urm, I am not talking specifically about one of my dogs. 
Well, I sort of am but it's my bitch, as always and sometimes I am doubting myself if it is the right choice to keep trying.She is very borderline so I am thinking about these things but to be honest, I could not re-home a dog knowingly, even if the new owners know about her issues. I could not do it knowing that something could happen. I couldn't have them sign the liability paper either. I could still not live with the guilt if ever something happened with a dog that I re-homed, knowing what kind of issues it has which is why the reason I have still my bitch and I'll keep her.

We did come a long way but I still have to watch closely and sometimes I wished I wouldn't have to watch closely.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> When is enough, enough.
> When do you give up trying and take it a step forward and admit that you are not going to get through and that maybe it's the best to either release the dog from his demons?
> Would you either have him put down or try to get him into different hands? Could you live if something happened with the next person?
> 
> ...


sometimes dogs, like humans, have mental issues that truly need addressing - much like post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) soldiers - there are dogs that have it too, like Lava Dog as an example that was rescue dog from Iraq war and he has gone through a lot of rehabilitation....but still has some issues the Lt. Col deals with him on.

Amazon.com: From Baghdad to America: Life Lessons from a Dog Named Lava (9781602392649): Jay Kopelman: Books 

If medication doesn't work and even training doesn't help then maybe it is the environment and a new handler might be better equipped to deal with the dog and the personal or mental issues. Maybe the dog just needs one owner and no other dogs or pets around and in time the dog will come around. Maybe the dog needs a job where he can be aggressive or looks forward to getting to nab someone - Like a guard dog at a warehouse?

It is not an easy answer and I would not judge any decision a person would need to make in that situation.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> To answer your question - I think the time would be when the dog's quality of life and wellbeing is suffering because of his/her aggression.


In a nut shell, this ^.

However, if my life and the lives of household members (of any species) were suffering because of said dog then I would also say enough is enough. If I could no longer maintain a quality of life because of constantly managing the dog then keeping the dog is not doing anyone any favors. 

This is of course individualized to different lifestyles. Obviously someone who takes pleasure in having guests a lot or taking their dogs everywhere may not to be able to manage a truly aggressive dog and maitain quality of life for themself or the dog as well as someone who is a homebody with few or no guests.

I would never rehome a truly aggressive dog unless I was positive that the person taking the dog were a better trainer and better equipped to manage the dog than I am. And that they truly wanted to deal with the dog. Otherwise, the dog is my responsibility until death.

In the end it is up to you to determine what is best for you and the dog and not anyone else.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I am going through major aggression issues with Victor so I am curious to see how everyone feels about this subject.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am a firm believer in humane euthanasia for some dogs. For a dog that is truly human aggressive, regardless of what caused the aggression, sometimes the safest option for the dog is to be euthanized. Most situations where that kind of aggression is acceptable/desirable is not much of a life for the dog.

I also saw an extreme case of animal aggression once, where the most humane option was euthanasia. This was a dog that just wouldn't respond to behavior modification/drug therapy/careful containment and was not safe.
Sheilah


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Mrs. K....Is this a dog you have, or is this a hypothetical question? 

Either way, if I had such a dog and I had worked with it, done everything possible and could not get through, I would not feel comfortable passing the dog onto someone else. Who is to say that person would succeed, where I failed? I could deal better with dog aggression than human aggression. Worst case - I could keep my dog away from other dogs. In fact, I have a dog aggressive dog who is now 13. It really hasn't been a problem. People aggression? Just too big of a risk. I would be by his side, when he was PTS and I would be very sad, but I think it would be the right thing.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Urm, I am not talking specifically about one of my dogs.
> Well, I sort of am but it's my bitch, as always and sometimes I am doubting myself if it is the right choice to keep trying.She is very borderline so I am thinking about these things but to be honest, I could not re-home a dog knowingly, even if the new owners know about her issues. I could not do it knowing that something could happen. I couldn't have them sign the liability paper either. I could still not live with the guilt if ever something happened with a dog that I re-homed, knowing what kind of issues it has which is why the reason I have still my bitch and I'll keep her.
> 
> We did come a long way but I still have to watch closely and sometimes I wished I wouldn't have to watch closely.


 
I am in the boat as you. I constantly have to watch Victor. I completely understand what you are saying. I absolutely know I can not re-home Victor. It is not an option for me either. I could not stand it if he hurt someone or if they use him for bait or chain him to be a guard dog.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Sometimes with an aggressive dog, the end result will be euthanasia regardless.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry Mrs. K, I was posted before I saw the answer to my question.

I cannot imagine your bitch being in more capable hands than yours. I know how frustrating this must be for you. JMO, but I think you deserve a good quality of life too. If this becomes too much for you, I think putting the girl to sleep would be very reasonable. I know that isn't something you would want to do. None of us would, but you have to think of yourself as well.

Hugs,
Jan


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I talked to Abby about the issue and what I forgot is what she has actually gone through in the past 6 weeks. 

We made an overseas move, came into a complete new house. Than the German Shorthaired Pointer showed up and she had to put up with that, she had to put up with Audie. We had to move again into a smaller place, had rotate between Rebekahs dogs. Now the puppy and Audie are with us and she is definitely not good with changes. So we have to go back to NILIF and for now the best thing to do is to keep rotating to give her a break. 

So right now it's best not to blame her but to blame myself that I have not seen the obvious.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Mrs K, Are we talking about incidents that have brought you to this quandary or are we talking about your fear of dealing with what this female might be capable of doing.

I just ask because I haven't read anything that she has done to put her life on the line or am I missing something.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't like change either. I'm sure all the changes have worn on you as well. Hang in there and I hope you see some real improvement soon.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Urm, I am not talking specifically about one of my dogs.
> Well, I sort of am but it's my bitch, as always and sometimes I am doubting myself if it is the right choice to keep trying.She is very borderline so I am thinking about these things but to be honest, I could not re-home a dog knowingly, even if the new owners know about her issues. I could not do it knowing that something could happen. I couldn't have them sign the liability paper either. I could still not live with the guilt if ever something happened with a dog that I re-homed, knowing what kind of issues it has which is why the reason I have still my bitch and I'll keep her.
> 
> We did come a long way but I still have to watch closely and sometimes I wished I wouldn't have to watch closely.


OK, your OP stated 'him' so I made an assumption. Nevertheless, I sympathize with your frustration and hope you can resolve it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ZAYDA said:


> Mrs K, Are we talking about incidents that have brought you to this quandary or are we talking about your fear of dealing with what this female might be capable of doing.
> 
> I just ask because I haven't read anything that she has done to put her life on the line or am I missing something.



Don't worry, her life is not on the line. I am just thinking about the "what if" and worst case scenario. 

I know what she is capable off, actually what any dog is capable off. After all they are dogs and every dog, just like humans, have aggression inside them. 

It's an ongoing thing ever since she had pyometra and we've dealt with severe aggression issues. It was so bad that a lot of people were scared of her and I was unable to let her even get close to another dog. Even dogs she knew for quite a while. 

Meanwhile it has gotten a lot better and I was able to let her get back together with other dogs but in the past week I can see her shifting back into old behavior which is probably more my fault than hers. I did not see the obvious but it can easily be managed. All I have to do is to go back to NILIF and keep rotating to give her a break from all the craziness in this house. 

However, the issues I have with her raise questions in my head of what if I had no choice and what would be the right thing to do if it came down to it. It doesn't mean that I want to put her down. I am just wondering how other people would handle it.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

When I was growing up, we rescued a lab mix puppy. Yogi was a cute, smart little thing. I was the one that trained the dog and took care of him. As he matured, he became more and more unpredictable to everyone else but my family and our other dog. He became dangerous. His quality of life declined because he was always on a leash, or confined when we weren't around. You always had to be on guard, you always had to be careful. 

I was at school one day and he got out and almost killed the neighbor's dog. A one time incident, and that's all it took. It was SO scary. This never improved. We tried literally everything with him. My dad finally decided to put him down. It was the best option for him and our family.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Mrs. K, It sounds like you really have a handle on things. Good luck!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I bet she's just really stressed out right now. Give her a month to get her feet back under her, do the NILIF, make sure she gets plenty of one on one time with you, and I bet you'll have her back under control.

In answer to your hypothetical question in the first post, I have to agree with Konotashi, it's a very personal assessment of the dog's quality of life. If he spends his days in a cage and cannot trusted in 99% of situations, then there is probably something really wrong with him. Something that can't be fixed with behavior modification or medication. I think I would want to be put out of my misery if it were me.

Good luck with Zenzy, she's in very capable hands and if anyone can get her back on track, it's you.


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## RudeDogTraining (Jan 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Very sorry for your dilemma. Try rehoming the dog. I'm sure you will let the next owner know about the situation and make sure (as you can) that the next owner is qualified to handle him. Also, get a signed waiver of any liability to you. If you can't do that then put him down before he hurts someone. Not too sure how miserable he is but just think how miserable you would be if he caused misery to someone else.


Not the best of ideas, no offense. That can potentially heighten the situation of aggression. Plus, even when you tell the new owners the situation, they may undermine the severity of the case. 

There are few cases that a dog has aggression "for no reason", in other words, there is neurological conditions that contribute to aggression that can't always be cured...but it's very rare. Most times, there is a medical issue that the dog has that's causing him to be aggressive. Other times, there are "triggers" that result in the dog acting out in aggression. Finding a behavioral consultant and having them observe the dog's behavior, as well as rule out medical conditions, will help you determine what the ultimate decision should be, and euthanasia is never completely ruled out...it's just the last resort if the dog cannot be helped. There was a case of a pitt bull "mauling" and killed a 4 day old baby, and the dog was euthanized. Granted, I would have agreed in euthanasia, however, the dog should have been evaluated regardless. IN this particular situation, the dog may have thought it was a toy..something small and squeeky adn the more he "played" with it, the more it squeeked. No one knows, but having the dog evaluated would have had some closure to the situation. A dog that has severe behavioral issues, espcially aggression should be evaluated by a veterinarian AND a behaviorist. You can find a behaviorist through the IAABC and take a step to figure out why this is happening. Sometimes a dog can't fully get over being aggressive, however, there can be techniques that can help a dog cope and tolerate situations where he would be aggressive. I wish you nothing but the best for you and your dog. :hugs:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There's an episode of Dog Whisperer (don't really know how people feel about this guy on this site, but I think he knows what he's doing) where he deals with a very aggressive dog and can't do anything about him. Doesn't sound like your girl has the same issues that dog had. I've seen other dogs get aggressive and stress after a move, especially one so far but I think in time it may go away. The dog in the show was a pitbull and the conclusion was that it was due to bad breeding that the dog was like that. The owners couldn't stand to put him down, which I believe was Cesar's recommendation and they just locked him in a kennel outside. He couldn't leave the kennel at all. Now is that fair? Is it really better to live like that? In my opinion no its not, but other people think that a life is a life and don't want to take that away from an animal.

Good luck with your situtation, hopefully it gets better with time and everything you plan on doing with her.


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## RudeDogTraining (Jan 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> they just locked him in a kennel outside. He couldn't leave the kennel at all. Now is that fair? Is it really better to live like that? In my opinion no its not, but other people think that a life is a life and don't want to take that away from an animal.


I agree. 100%. Genetics play a role in behavior (good or bad), and if your dog is going to spend its life in a crate, you gotta think about the quality of life. at that point, your dog has just become a lawn ornament.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Sometimes with an aggressive dog, the end result will be euthanasia regardless.


I would have to disagree.

You are implying that the handler of an aggressive dog would not do so properly. The handler of such an animal needs to be diligent. I believe it can be done- If there is still quality of life. JQP is a moron. JQP should not have an aggressive animal unless he/she is going to make some sacrifices, put on their big boy/girl pants research research train train, modify enviromental stressers, etc. 

There was a dog PTS today on another forum due to this. The handler made the right decision IMO. I pray he is happy over the bridge. Some dogs you cannot 'fix'. Some are able to acclimate. Some bounce back. It is a situation to situation type thing. There is no cut and dry.

I am sorry OP is dealing with what some of us are dealing with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Zenzy and Victor are both still young. With maturity both owners may see a different dog. 
Onyx was quite crazy during her maturing. At 3 she mellowed some and I manage her carefully. She'll never be able to do things in social settings/sportwork etc, and I crate her when small children come over but she is a happy dog for the most part. She does well with her pack here at home. I try to keep her in the world, but sometimes it is overwhelming to her.
Some aggressive dogs can live a good life, the management the owner provides is key and whether or not they want to deal with it daily is the question.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Zenzy is five years old Onyx. Indra has no issue at all, she's a social butterfly and simply loves meeting new dogs. it sometimes takes one minute for her to warm up but that all depends on how she meets a new dog. 

Zenzy however is a totally different story. You wouldn't believe how far she has come and she's still having issues. 

One thing is for sure, I will never give her away. First off, she's my special girl and she can be so cute and loving. Especially when I go to bed and she's right there with my, sticking her but in the air and her head underneath the pillow and stays like that for at least ten minutes just because she wants to snuggle. Then she goes curls up next to me and doesn't leave my side ALL night long and she before the surgery she was not like that. She was more like the rough and tough girl that you didn't see on the bed or the couch. Snuggling was for losers but ever since the surgery she became very possessive and stays as close as possible. 

Anyhow... I don't want to babble... it'll work out. We came that far, we will overcome this situation too. It's just getting frustrating from time to time and I have a bad habit into doubting myself from time to time too...


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> *Zenzy and Victor are both still young*.* With maturity both owners may see a different dog. *
> Onyx was quite crazy during her maturing. At 3 she mellowed some and I manage her carefully. She'll never be able to do things in social settings/sportwork etc, and I crate her when small children come over but she is a happy dog for the most part. She does well with her pack here at home. I try to keep her in the world, but sometimes it is overwhelming to her.
> Some aggressive dogs can live a good life, the management the owner provides is key and whether or not they want to deal with it daily is the question.


I sure hope so in my case. Victor will be 2 next month. I hope this is true because he is a lot to handle.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I sure hope so in my case. Victor will be 2 next month. I hope this is true because he is a lot to handle.


Yeah, Zenzy is five... so not much maturing left on her side. But maybe she's getting quieter once she gets into her senior years which are not that far away... right now she's underneath the table and sleeps while Indra and the puppy are brawling in front of the couch.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Unless the dog is mentally unstable for whatever reason, most aggression issues can be managed with good training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have to go home. so I did not read all the responses to this point. 

I think that if you have an aggressive dog, and you can keep that dog safe, have a escape proof kennel where the dog can be kept if you have visitors, and will ensure that the dog is not going to bite someone. If you can muzzle the dog to take it where he needs to go, the vet for example. And if you personally are not afraid of the dog. I can see giving the dog a home. 

If you can find someone who is very experienced with aggressive dogs that is willing and able to take your dog. And you have seriously assessed them, it is ok with full disclosure to rehome the dog.

It is also ok to put a dog down for aggression. I think it is a shame if the owner does not learn from it, simply says it is bad breeding or what have you, and blames everyone else and gets another dog and treats it the same exact way.

The thing is, you can treat two dogs the same exact way, and one will be aggressive and the other will not. But that does not make it ok. 

So I think it is ok to put a dog down that is aggressive, if it is a liability, but to truly assess the reasons for the dog's aggression. I have heard that some dogs have rage syndrome, and others have extremely poor nerves, but my guess is that handling is responsible for a lot of bad behavior. And people need to see the part they play in order not to make the same mistakes with another dog.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, Zenzy is five... so not much maturing left on her side. But maybe he's getting quieter once she gets into her senior years which are not that far away... right now she's underneath the table and sleeps while Indra and the puppy are brawling in front of the couch.


Do GSDs ever really calm down with age? I mean as far as like Victor he is always I guess you would say "amped" up. No amount of exercise/activities stop him-he takes a small break when he is heated and then he is ready to go again. 
I have always had like labs and other breeds that do calm with age. Does the same apply with GSDs?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, Zenzy is five... so not much maturing left on her side. But maybe she's getting quieter once she gets into her senior years which are not that far away... right now she's underneath the table and sleeps while Indra and the puppy are brawling in front of the couch.


I'm sorry, I was getting Zenzy confused with Indra. Well...some dogs just have to be managed daily. Sounds like the senior years will be her golden ones!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

With my girl it's actually the way she grew up. She's never been socialized until the day I got her, she never learned bite inhibition and she actually got me more than once on one of my arms not because out of aggression though. She had no social manners and behavior whatsoever. She literally behaves like a "wild dog" within a pack. She threatens a lot. She shows a lot of teeths, she did go after the puppies and she still does but so far she has never really bitten or attacked a dog because so far I have her under control and I simply never let it get that far. If an ignorant dog owner came my way and wouldn't take his dog on the leash I simply turned around and walked away instead of walking by asking for it. I never let her get together with other dogs because I knew what she's capable off, always took her out of dangerous situations. 
Her re-call was always good but we've almost trained on a daily basis. With the move and everything we haven't done really anything in three months. She's been in the kennel for almost two months, no NILIF, no Obedience, nothing at all... and THAT took it's toll. While they know every single command it's almost like with kids... why listen? They didn't have to listen for the past three months so why should they now?
With the house and stress and second move and everything in between... I guess it's simply too much and I expect too much from her. 

I guess it was mainly because of me. Because I expected to much from the situation. Considered the circumstances she's actually doing not all that bad. It could be much much worse. It could be to the point where she doesn't accept any other dog next to her, like she did back then but that is not the case so she did actually improve and learned some social behaviors. I just have to make sure that she feels safe and comfortable and take it easier, not causing as much stress as I did in the past weeks. 

Maybe I should take a step back from taking "strange" dogs in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs K, you are in an area with many good trainers and maybe after you are all settled in, you can get her with a great behaviorist and work on some of her issues. I think you do a great job with your pack and maybe a fresh perspective will help her. 
I'm sure the past few months have been stressful, then bringing in an intact male to the home is quite a jolt too!
Considering the circumstances, wow! Zenzy sleeping while others play...nothing wrong with that picture.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Mrs K, you are in an area with many good trainers and maybe after you are all settled in, you can get her with a great behaviorist and work on some of her issues. I think you do a great job with your pack and maybe a fresh perspective will help her.
> I'm sure the past few months have been stressful, then bringing in an intact male to the home is quite a jolt too!
> Considering the circumstances, wow! Zenzy sleeping while others play...nothing wrong with that picture.


Yep, that is actually rare but the male is crated for now so it's more quiet. Now if Audie, the big dane would be involved in the play it would be too much and she'd interfere and police.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I adopted Basu when he was 4.5 years old. He had been neglected and abused. He had been kept in a kennel in the garage 14 hours a day, let out twice (and only twice) to pee/poop/stretch his legs and then kept in a crate in the house the rest of the time. He was extremely fearful at first and then became fear aggressive. Had someone else adopted him he most likely would have been euthanized. 

Handling him was completely different than handling any other dog I'd ever had. He went all the way through advanced OB but I still had to watch him like a hawk. It really did change my life. I had to learn a completely different way of training, had to learn to be very patient and had to resign myself to keeping him leashed or under tight voice control in most situations. 

HOWEVER, he came a long, long way over the 6.5 years I had him and although he was never "normal" he was loving and playful with people that he knew and was eventually more trustworthy than before with people. He was also very good with other dogs and with my cat, Cleo. 

He was always a work in progress but I loved him so very much and would never, ever have euthanized him.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Here's the problem the way I see it...there are only 3 options when dealing with a *seriously aggressive* dog. 1. Keep the dog 2.Re-home the dog or 3. Euthanize the dog

There is a lot of discussion about John Q. Public not being able to handle the situation. I think this is 100% correct. Most people can't. And JQP is where the majority of dogs live and where the majority of homes available are located. Highly qualified people who can manage or train out this level of behavior are few and far between. Most of them are not going to take your problem into their home. Can you imagine seeing a Craigslist ad asking for someone to please take their human and animal aggressive dog? They're afraid for their children and then don't want to put him down can someone PLEASE take him. Sure everyone might offer training tips or sell them classes...but how many people would actually take the dog? Rescues certainly don't want it. They have limited space and an owner surrender that is largely unadoptable could be taking the space of another highly adoptable dog from a kill shelter. I think also that by the time it gets to this point where someone is actually trying to re-home the dog- they're done with it and have given up. Training and classes won't work because their heart is not in it. 

Which brings me to the other option. Keeping the dog. I think by the time most people get around to seriously thinking about rehoming a dog they 1. Frustrated and defeated, 2. Likely intimidated by the dog's aggressive displays and 3. Emotionally done. What they know to try doesn't work, the dog has frightened them and that fear colors their interactions, and the relationship with the dog has become so strained that it has become burdensome. Dealing with the dog has become just that "dealing", coping, trying to figure out how to get through another day. Not fun. And not good for the dog. When people are guilted into keeping the dog the quality of life for that dog is likely to be seriously diminished. Confined to kennels. Left in the backyard. Maybe even Mom secretly hoping that the dog would run into the street because it has all become too much to deal with...and the dog is only 4 years old...Another 8 years of this???

And then we get to euthanasia. While maybe the dog could be fixed by someone somewhere...I think we have to face the fact that these homes are not always available and it's not a realistic option for many. Re-homing might make the person feel better and then can tell themselves that Rusty is now having the time of his life in the country chasing goats where he can run and not have to encounter strangers or other dogs. That's a nice fairy tale. What's more likely is that Rusty ate one of the farmers' chickens and got shot. And maybe a knowledgeable person could successfully manage the dog and train the behavior to keep it...I think in many cases where the person does care...if they could have done it would have already happened. And maybe humans did create the problem- either through poor breeding giving the dog an unstable temperament or mishandling or abuse. And we should feel a certain amount of sadness and regret that the situation wasn't better BUT Regardless of the why, now the dog is a danger. And for me personally, I don't think dangerous animals should be a part of society. It's a hard decision and it SHOULD be hard to do. But when I think of people I know who have had to do it- it feels right in the end. Sometimes euthanasia really is the best option.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am just wondering about the type of aggression Mrs K is talking about.........is it fear driven or just plain mad dog syndrom type thing.........are you talking people aggression? dog aggression? or all? And how responsive has your girl been to Ob training, focus, etc? if there has been some progression than i would take that as a positive, some dogs like this progress very little if at all..........i do feel your frustrations, anyone who has to deal with a "special needs" dog understands that........its like having an Autistic Child, Give everything and get little back............


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Mrs. K you and your husband have been stressed with all that has happened. I am sure the dogs are stressed as well and then they also sense your stress. I would give it time and maybe she will settle back down a bit.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Don't worry, I am not thinking about putting Zenzy down. The issues I have with her make me think about these kind of things though. About when enough is enough and what if you really can't make any progress. We made a lot of progress, however the stress takes it toll. 

She is responsive to obedience training. The hand/nosetouch, for example, is the only way to take her focus off the dogs. She doesn't even care how many dogs are around her as long as I let her do the nosetouch.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

:rip: Zenzy


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

LisaT said:


> :rip: Zenzy


What??


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

It was an extremely difficult and painful choice to have to make. Run free Zenzy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Runswithdogs said:


> What??


She was put to sleep yesterday. 

The past two days have been the most horrible in all the time I've had her. 

She bit Audie who had to be sedated and stitched up. He had a big hole in his flank. She went after Indra, wouldn't let Yukon get near me and went after the puppy. Everything happened within 48 hours. 

I contacted three vets. Friends of mine suggested to adopt her out via a rescue but I couldn't do it. Not knowing what kind of issues she had. 

Indra was so scared she didn't want to get near her anymore and that was the breaking point. I had hope. When I saw them sleeping together the day before I had hope that things will turn around. I've been going back and forth about the incident with Audie. But when she went after Indra, the pup and wouldn't let Yukon get near me... it was better to release her. There was no medication that could have helped her. It was missing socialization, biting inhibition, in her head... 

Even with all the changes she went through, it should have not went THAT far... 

As for those that are going to judge... if I wanted to get rid of her I would have left her in Germany and not gone through all the hazzle to bring her to the US. 

None of you lived with her on a daily basis. None of you know what it's like to watch out 24/7 so she did not lung after another dog. We've had good time, very good times but after that surgery she wasn't the same dog. It triggered something in her and it never stopped. 

Re-homing was not an option. She was my responsibility, it was my decision to make and believe me when I say that it was the hardest decision I have ever made. I don't know how to cope with it. I feel horrible. Absolutely horrible. Cried through the night, cried on the way to the vet and I still can't think about her without having to cry. 
I failed her.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I just want to say I am so sorry for your loss. It is not easy to have to make a decision such as this, but I believe you made the right one. This is a decision I,myself might have to face with Victor one day. I do know what it is like to have to watch every move your dog makes. I have to do this with Victor so I completely understand what you were dealing with. Once again I am so sorry for your loss.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am so so sorry Mrs. K - I don't know the whole history and that is ok - I do know you are experienced enough and responsible enough that you knew what you were dealing with. Aggression is not an easy thing to deal with - everyone wants that 'alpha' dog until they get it. If your girl changed somehow after a surgery, some chemical reaction within her physiology - I admire your courage and your responsiblity in recognizing it, in being responsible enough that you would not pass her off to someone else where, who knows, it may have escalated from the insecurity of a new environment and family. I know how heartbroken you are too. Unfortunately, you have to be responsible not only for the aggessive dog but the other dogs and keep them safe....it is not a good place to be when you have a serious problem. 

Big hugs.....sometimes the best things we do are the hardest and hurt the most....

Lee


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

I am so sorry for what you've been through, and how hard this must be. It sounds like you did the right thing for everyone involved.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Thank you. I have very mixed feelings about it. Most of it is my fault. I put her through the changes that have triggered something. But a dog that is right in his head would have never dealt and coped with it the way she did. 

And now that she is gone, it's a totally different atmosphere. I don't have to yell anymore, I can turn around knowing that there will be no lunging, yelping, growling. 

I don't have to worry about the neighbors dogs being out the same time mine are. I miss her so much, I hate myself for having done it but at the same time it's a huge relief.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I am so sorry for your loss.I just finished reading your post on the other forum and my heart breaks for you. And I commend you for doing the right thing for Zenzy. I truly feel it is better for her to go to the bridge being held in your arms then to be rehomed again and again until she would have ended up in a shelter- cold, alone and confused- only to meet her end with strangers who neither love nor care about her. 

When you have a dog that just can't be fixed and has become a safety issue for the other dogs in your house, well, that is not fair to the other dogs. It just isn't. 

RIP Zenzy, run free at the bridge.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't know Debbi. I still don't know. Even if it wasn't it's too late. To be honest, for the other dogs it's better. It's not just about the physical safety but also about the mental stability.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Mrs K., your only other choice was to place every other dog and then micro manage Zenzy the rest of her life...and if she was this unpredictable and had changed so much personality wise since that surgery, there may have been other issues that would have escalated...you were faced with an impossible choice, and there is no gain in second guessing yourself now...you had just as much responsiblity to Indra and the others as to Zenzy....it was a no win situation...

Hugs....

Lee


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I can totally understand you not knowing, you loved her very much and your heart may never truly be comfortable with it. My heart still isn't comfortable that I didn't fight more for Oreo when I made the decision to put him to sleep. But for the physical and mental health of your other dogs I have no doubt you made the right decision. And for her, whatever was broken in her is fixed now and she is at peace. Her demons are laid to rest. 

I really hope you are able to find peace with your decision. It the hardest one to make as it is. But it sounds like you really did everything you could for her and in the end you made the decision to set her free. You deserve to have the peace she has found as well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Mrs K., your only other choice was to place every other dog and then micro manage Zenzy the rest of her life...and if she was this unpredictable and had changed so much personality wise since that surgery, there may have been other issues that would have escalated...you were faced with an impossible choice, and there is no gain in second guessing yourself now...you had just as much responsiblity to Indra and the others as to Zenzy....it was a no win situation...
> 
> Hugs....
> 
> Lee


The thing that gets me. Why did I buy Judge? Why did I take in the foster, why did I board a dog, why did I take in the Shorthaired pointer who was straying around... 

Maybe it could have all been prevented if I didn't do all these things.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I've been looking for the posts on here that describe what actions you took with her, and the results of her thyroid panel and such. Can't seem to find them, do you have a link?


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Mrs. K, I can relate to you. I adopted a Great Dane, who had bitten 3 people by 6 month old and it has taking me years to get him to a point that I can trust him with others. Recently I adopted the black Czech GSD and she has picked up on some of the aggression. I could never rehome her with fear of what would happen. We are on our 2nd dog trainer that specializes in aggression. (she is making improvements) Some days I am in tears and I wonder why I took in another special case dog. 
If I really believed my dog was completely beyond helping then I would certainly put that dog down.
Short story: My uncle has an older chow that the city was going to put it down for aggressive issues. My uncle thought he was smarter to rehome it and warned the family of his unpredictable behavior. They didn't listen and their 4 yrs old girl had to have 25 stitches in her head because she pet him when he was eating. My uncle has always regretted not putting his dog to sleep back then. 
.....So I would never rehome an aggressive dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LisaT said:


> I've been looking for the posts on here that describe what actions you took with her, and the results of her thyroid panel and such. Can't seem to find them, do you have a link?


What does it matter now? It's too late for any of that. It wasn't the thyroids and even if it was and they missed something it's too late.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Mrs. K, Dont beat yourself up over the decision you made. I dont know the whole story either, but it sounds like she was broken before you got her. If that makes sence? You tried to fix her with tape, glue, duct tape, staples, and anything else that could hold her together. It just wasnt meant to be. You gave her a fighting chance(no pun intended). You are second guessing yourself because you care about animals and their welfare. Help the ones you can, pray for the ones you cant. Give all your dogs a hug, and know you made the right decision.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> What does it matter now? It's too late for any of that. It wasn't the thyroids and even if it was and they missed something it's too late.


Every situation is a learning experience. If someone else is in the same situation, what steps can they take, what can they learn from this? 

I did find many of the old behaviour posts.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs. K, try not to beat yourself up over this. Even good people with great instincts about animals have to sometimes make horrible decisions. 

Imagine the anxiety and stress that Zenzy had to deal with because of whatever it was that made her like she was. You did everything you could and in the end you gave her a final gift, and that was peace.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

((((((((((Mrs. K))))))))))

I've been there.... THREE TIMES. Yeah. I second guessed myself every time, especially after the third time.... even though multiple professionals (veterinarians & trainers) told me I had done everything humanly possible & they had no more options to offer me.

*Misha:* One year old. Rage episodes, highly unpredictable, looked like complex partial seizures. Unprovoked attacks on familiar humans, other dogs, innocent walls, invisible people. Strange look in eyes during episodes; episodes stopped as abruptly as they started, with Misha appearing slightly disoriented afterward. (Idiopathic Rage Syndrome? Nobody knew about it back then.)

*Trevor: *Five months old. Unknown metabolic disorder (ate insane amounts of food & was losing weight; slept an average of 6 hours per 24; CBC & other tests inconclusive). Lived in a constant state of fear; had to be kept securely contained or on leash at all times. Quality of life clearly compromised, steady physical & mental deterioration obvious. (I knew when I got him at three months that it would end badly, but he was in a home with two little girls & I was concerned for their safety. I had to give him every chance, though.)

*Emma: *Nine years, eight months. Apparent cognitive deterioration. Vet suspected either brain tumor or "doggie dementia." Always a dominant but predictable dog, she became increasingly unpredictable during her last four months. She also acted confused at times. developed odd "tics" & went from being a bossy-but-happy dog to one that was constantly on guard. She began stalking the cats she had lived with happily for nearly nine years, then attempted to attack one. She was NOT in "play" mode. Her best friend/brother appeared to be afraid of her. They used to play constantly. 

Three times.... If anyone is a bad dog owner, I guess I am. :-(


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you. I have very mixed feelings about it. Most of it is my fault. I put her through the changes that have triggered something. But a dog that is right in his head would have never dealt and coped with it the way she did.
> 
> And now that she is gone, it's a totally different atmosphere. I don't have to yell anymore, I can turn around knowing that there will be no lunging, yelping, growling.
> 
> I don't have to worry about the neighbors dogs being out the same time mine are. I miss her so much, I hate myself for having done it but at the same time it's a huge relief.


 
My deepest sympathy! Doesn't sound like you had any choice, and made the best decision!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

You did the right thing. It was a difficult choice to make, but you did the right thing for her.
((Hugs))
Sheilah


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I am sorry for your loss, but I think you put an anxious mind at rest. You made a hard decision and I pass no judgment. Peace be with you and your family. RIP
((((hugs))))


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> As for those that are going to judge... if I wanted to get rid of her I would have left her in Germany and not gone through all the hazzle to bring her to the US.
> 
> None of you lived with her on a daily basis. *None of you know what it's like to watch out 24/7 *so she did not lung after another dog. We've had good time, very good times but after that surgery she wasn't the same dog. It triggered something in her and it never stopped.


Exactly!

Doesn't really matter what others think.. The bottom line is... you had to do what was best for you and the others in your household.. Living with a dog that is truly aggressive isn't easy, even for the most experienced.. The stress alone, of the constant worrying becomes so overwhelming to the point it consumes your life and the others, along with yourself will suffer..

Second guessing ourselves is part of the grieving process and in time the hurt and sadness will subside and you can move forward, seeing all the good you did..


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Hugs to you. You made the decision that needed to be made for her and for you. She is at peace now and you were there with her to help her to the bridge. Don't beat yourself up. We all second guess ourselves in these situations with What if? but then we find we did the right thing.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> The thing that gets me. Why did I buy Judge? Why did I take in the foster, why did I board a dog, why did I take in the Shorthaired pointer who was straying around...
> 
> Maybe it could have all been prevented if I didn't do all these things.


Mrs K .... You took all of these dogs in because you have a big heart. And who could resist little Judge! He's so adorable! I don't think you could have prevented this, it seemed inevitable. If Zenzy was turning on even Yukon, then something in her snapped. You were there for her and did the right thing. You helped her find peace from what was obviously a tormented mind. Don't beat yourself up about anything you did or didn't do. You are good person, and a wonderful Mom to your pack.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Many hugs to you Mrs. K. I admire your loyalty to your entire pack. You are responsible for all the little lives in your care, and you had to do what was best for them as well.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Mrs. K, I'm so sorry for your loss. I know it's hard not to blame yourself but really, you did everything you could and Zenzy is at peace now. You gave her the best life you could and you made sure she wasn't alone and scared when she passed. I think you did well.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Mrs. K, I am so sorry for what you have gone through...

The scenarios had run through my mind when Jackson was at his worst in his fear period. I thought, I can't give him away, I either have to keep him, or I may have to put him down in the future. Vets, trainers, and his breeder were worried about him. I cried and lost sleep and worried and wondered WHY MY DOG? It's extremley stressful and I remember my head feel like it was actually spinning from all the stress and the thought of losing him.....

I don't think anyone really has the right to pass judgement on a situation like this unless they have personally been there. There are so many factors such as the extra time, extensive training, vet costs, extra caution, and constantly having to watch them, that people don't expect to have to do with a dog when they adopt it, and IMO shouldn't HAVE to do when it comes to a PET dog. It is alot to take in, and usually ALWAYS unexpected at the time of adoption. That is alot to weigh against the safety of others and the quality of life and the chance of recovery. It's extremley stressful...as you know.

Who knows what could have happened during her surgery...and who knows what type of a reaction a certain dog may have to the anestetic (sp?). The most important thing is that you are keeping the rest of your dogs SAFE, and yourself safe. If she turned on her fellow dogs, you never really know how it was progressing and if she would have redirected at you or your husband at some point. You will always wonder WHAT IF. I don't know when or how I would draw the line but I think you did the right thing. It's a tough call, but now everyone is safe. You are an experienced pet dog owner, and something in you KNEW it was time if you made that decision. So don't second guess yourself and try not to beat yourself up.... ((HUGS)) !!


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

OH Mrs K I'm so sorry she was such a pretty dog I'm sorry for your loss (hugs)


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