# Solid Black WGSL??



## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I was looking over the PDB forums and saw a post about a solid black WGSL from Russia. She was a beauty, but it has me a tad confused. Are there really solid black ones? I know there are obviously in the WL GSD's, but this is the first I have heard of this in WGSL's. Does anyone want to fill me in?  Thanks!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Can't answer the question, however, check this dog out: V Voodoo Hartis Bohemia - German Shepherd Dog

He is a working line dog but I have heard that he is being crossed onto showlines. Not really sure what is the desired end result but I think it is possible for blacks to show up in the genetics if dogs like this are being introduced to the lines.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

That is sort of my question. Are the solid black pure WGSL or have the had WL mixed into them. I don't know much about genetics or the black gene. But I am intrigued by this for some reason.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am about 95% sure there are black WGSL.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

There are solid black show dogs. Unfortunately the rave is black and red - has been for years. For some reason (?), solid black show dogs are looked favorably upon. They just don't fit the cookie cutter mentality. Go figure.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, that's the discussion about the elusive dominant black gene. Black is recessive in GSDs but there are rumors about a line of Show Line dogs out of Eastern Europe that carry a dominant black gene. There's good evidence for it, but I think the person on the thread you're talking about may be about to get scammed.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I am going to be honest Emoore, I tried to follow the current thread, but gave up Way over my head! I saw that they had posted that female from Russia...was someone thinking about purchasing it?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think so.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I am curious to see how that plays out.... I think it has a 30+ page PDB thread written all over it


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I was at an AKC show years ago and there was a solid black ASL dog, which I'd never seen before or since. Gorgeous dog! I haven't seen a black German showline dog before.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

I had a solid black GSD growing up that I am pretty sure was ASL. It was long coat. Breeder's name was Ransom I believe and kennel name was Black Shadow Shepherds. I can't find any information on him though. This was probably 17 years ago now


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, there are dogs that are pretty much all German show line bloodlines who are solid black. I'm about 95% sure that these dogs have the dominant black gene. 

The dominant black gene was deliberately eliminated (or mostly eliminated) from the GSD breed to help preserve the sable and saddle/black-tan color and pattern. The gene for solid black is in a different location (K locus) than the genes for sable/saddle/recessive black (agouti locus) and it "overrules" whatever agouti information the dog may carry. So a dominant black dog only needs to have 1 gene for black present to produce solid black puppies from any GSD it is mated with. It is also possible for a dog to have the dominant black gene and to have the recessive black gene. 

Although these solid black conformation dogs are generally quite attractive, the question is: What are we going to do if the dominant black gene becomes common again in the breed?

Nowadays, it is possible to test for the dominant black gene--I think people would start demanding DNA tests on any black dog. 

A dog with the dominant black color -- you don't know what sort of mask or what color their tan is; do they have the gene for the fading saddle? Well if you breed that black dog and some of the puppies are solid black and the rest have no mask or almost no saddle, you're SOL if you wanted to show those black/tan puppies. We all have seen the desire to have strongly pigmented black-red dogs--this dominant black gene hides that pattern, so you don't know what you're breeding. And unlike the recessive black gene that generally extends the coverage of the black areas on a sable or saddle patterned dog, the dominant black gene doesn't have any effect as far as improving the pigment of any puppies that do not inherit the dominant black gene (that is, the pups will either be solid black or will have no effect whatsoever from the parent's dominant black gene--because if they aren't black, they didn't get the gene).

Hope that makes some sense!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

That was a knowledge bomb that just exploded in my head


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

That is very helpful Christine! I love all of your explanations! So do you think there are still dogs out there with the dominant black gene? i am going to be honest, I think they are beautiful, but I completely understand (now) why you wouldn't want to purposely breed for it. Although to be honest I love all of the GSD's, but when I get a pup it will be a standard WGSL


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There have been solid black lines in the AS world in years past. Maur Ray and Bauerinoff, are a few off the top of my head. I don't believe in breeding for any color exclusively, but the issues that may come with the gene being dominat won't affect work or health no more than some of the other breeding schemes.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Cliff is right -- the black gene is *just* a color--doesn't affect temperament or health or anything other than appearance.

(But we all know how much we care about how our dogs look! It's one of the reasons we have GSDs!)

I *do* think the dominant gene is still around--whether it was reintroduced by an "oops" breeding to some Belgian sheepdog or whether it has stuck around hiding among the black recessives for the past 100 years. I think it is very, very rare and that the Russian show breeders are actively breeding for it and promoting it (and their dogs are beautiful) and selling their dogs abroad--and we may see it spread throughout the world all going back to one solid black bitch. It will be interesting to see the situation in 10 years, after another 3-5 generations of showline breeding of dominant blacks....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some of those dominant black may be melanistic black and tans -- on very close examination the only tan may be a thin line of a few hairs with "other colour" on the back of the legs, between the toes -- I had one -- Linda and I had hours and hours of discussions about this .


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Take a look at this dog, his parents, his siblings, who he's been bred to, and his children, who his children have been bred to, and *their* puppies, and see if you think there's anything "melanistic" about his non-black puppies. 

12V UA,12V RUS Vogerland Shaytan - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well - historically the old timers would say there were sable dogs and black dogs -- and the black was brought in by the Wurttembergers . I don't know ? how immediate does a recessive need to be to express itself. This pedigree after all does have Bodo Lierberg who represents the Wurttembergers .
Also there is a lot of information missing on the pedigree -- and -- we have to take a pedigree on trust that information is true and accurate.


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## Max&Bear Dad (Jan 28, 2012)

My black GSD even has large black "freckles" on his tongue. These are called "points." He comes from the Car Policia line and exhibits the expected very high prey drive. Great temperment and exceptional intelligent. He has been a great addition to our Sable and Black boy. He sure does get noticed frequently too.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> well - historically the old timers would say there were sable dogs and black dogs -- and the black was brought in by the Wurttembergers . I don't know ? how immediate does a recessive need to be to express itself. This pedigree after all does have Bodo Lierberg who represents the Wurttembergers .
> Also there is a lot of information missing on the pedigree -- and -- we have to take a pedigree on trust that information is true and accurate.


Theoretically, the black recessive could stay hidden for many generations. However, although possible, I don't think it is likely in this case for several reasons:

1) The dog produces black with every female he is bred to--no matter her pedigree or coloring. The odds of one or two dogs having the recessive black gene hidden away for multiple generations are in the slim-but-possible range--but *every* breeding partner? Unlikely.

2) There are no typical indications of a dog who carries the recessive black in the non-black breeding partners, their parents, grandparents, siblings, or the puppies of the black to black-tan breedings that are not black.

3) The number of solid black puppies is extremely high--although there is a selection bias problem if we are taking our info from the database because there is obviously a high motivation to put the black puppies online.

4) On the side of the pure black parent, there is a line of pure black parents. That is, the possibility of a dominant inheritance pattern is supported by the visible evidence. In the parentage of dogs with the recessive black gene, it's unusual (but not impossible) to see an unbroken line of pure black parents. But with the dominant black, just as with the sable gene, it should be possible to figure out which parent in each generation contributed that color.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have never seen a black WGSL dog of long standing showline pedigree. No reason it theoretically couldn't happen though. vom Silbersee has blacks that they exhibit but I think WL are introduced. They used my WL male"s grand dam in their program. My males uncle was purchased by WGSL breeder for interjection into their lines. He could carry black recessive. With outcrossing, the black might appear more often as it may carry along.

ASLs exhibit all colors. Sables and blacks can win top placements. A recent GV carries black. I know of a nice select dog who is being bred to also a carrier. Quite a few blacks again hitting the Am showring. I have a black and a sable.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have seen the number of blacks in the review increasing. My, what appears to be solid black bitch, has brown between her toes. So she is not really solid black, but the black covers all but between her toes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've seen a few solid black WGSL and I think they come from somewhere in Russia?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Yes, there are dogs that are pretty much all German show line bloodlines who are solid black. I'm about 95% sure that these dogs have the dominant black gene.
> 
> The dominant black gene was deliberately eliminated (or mostly eliminated) from the GSD breed to help preserve the sable and saddle/black-tan color and pattern. The gene for solid black is in a different location (K locus) than the genes for sable/saddle/recessive black (agouti locus) and it "overrules" whatever agouti information the dog may carry. So a dominant black dog only needs to have 1 gene for black present to produce solid black puppies from any GSD it is mated with. It is also possible for a dog to have the dominant black gene and to have the recessive black gene.
> 
> ...


So if I am understanding correctly then, the black is like the white gene? It is just a masking color, but there is a "true" color in the genetics?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Rerun said:


> So if I am understanding correctly then, the black is like the white gene? It is just a masking color, but there is a "true" color in the genetics?


Uhh. Kinda.

White turns off all (or almost all) pigment/melanin to the hairs, so the dog appears white.

Black turns all black pigment on, so the hairs are solid black.

Liver turns all black to brown.

Blue mutes all black so it looks blue/gray. So it also mutes the liver coloration so you get lilac or isabella or fawn--depending on the breed.

These "control switches" are in different locations--so a dog can have the dominant black gene and the recessive white gene and then in another location, there's a pattern control panel (the Agouti locus).

So, a dog could have the agouti locus genes for black-tan/black-tan, but also have the dominant black gene, so the dog would look black. If the dog then also had the liver gene in another location, the dog would look "chocolate" -- like a chocolate lab. And, indeed, tanpoint (black-tan) is a gene that occasionally crops up in labs.

And then, to top it all off, you could have a solid white dog who has the dominant black gene and then has tanpoint/tanpoint coloring on the agouti allele.

In GSDs, at least, we are mostly dealing with the agouti locus--because all other colors were selectively bred away from. So, *normally* you can say the order of primacy for GSD colors is sable/tanpoint/black .... but that's only true as long as you are not dealing with the color genes in other locations.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Jun 20, 2011)

So were the Bauernhoffen dogs dominant black genes?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> So were the Bauernhoffen dogs dominant black genes?


Need more detail. Did they produce black puppies when bred to dogs who had no sign of having the black recessive (for generations)?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Here's one of the Russian black showline dogs:

12V UA,12V RUS Vogerland Shaytan - German Shepherd Dog

If you look at his parents, his parents' siblings, his siblings, his breeding partners, and his progeny and their progeny, you can see how the distribution and production of solid black dogs is atypical of the recessive black gene.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

Thats interesting i was studying my females pedigree and she is about 75% or more wgsl and she is all black. The other dogs in her pedigree happen to be asl and like i said thats only a few.


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