# Switching to Raw Soon; a 'Few' Questions First



## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Been reading a lot about raw diets on here and other places, as well as asking random dog owners I meet who do feed raw (so some of these questions are to get some confirmation on things I hear).


I intend to follow the "preymodelraw" guidelines: 80/10/10, as dogs aren't known for picking berries, apples, and carrots (and thank goodness! My dog STILL can't figure out the whole 'eating a baby carrot' thing, despite watching me and my mother's dog eat a bunch of them in front of him...can train him to jump through hoops, but no luck on eating carrots...lol). However, I still will occasionally toss him some fruits/vegetables as an attempt at a treat of a new flavor to taste, but it won't be counted towards his diet, as it will be a minuscule amount in his weekly intake. Dairy will not be in his diet, period.

I saw someone post a link to this 'how to' and wonder how closely any of you have followed it: How to get started feeding a Prey Model Raw Diet - Raw Chat - PMR Articles - articles - Prey Model Raw

Did many of you follow the high boned, strictly one meat source, with slow integration approach? Or did many of you just load up on supplies and began feeding a balanced diet? I feel like several weeks without any organs tossed in wouldn't be the best (especially for a very high activity level dog).

Next, bones:
Would it be okay to stick with pretty much one type of animal bone as the staple of their bone intake? Chicken thighs, chicken wings, chicken drumsticks, etc.? These would probably be the cheapest, though I think pork ribs & such aren't too badly priced at some of the stores around me. Also, how do you count the weight of "bone items" towards the weight of their food intake? Say the dog is to get 1 lb of bone during the course of a week: is that with or without the meat & skin attached to, say, a chicken wing? I do have an amazingly highly accurate food scale that goes down to .01 grams; I could find the weight of the average drumstick & wing bones, if we're not supposed to include the weight of the meats attached.

For muscle meats:
Can I do just 2 or 3 different meats? Rabbit and deer aren't readily available to me at a reasonable price, and I hate the smell of fish. I'd probably count chicken & turkey as one, pork as another, and then decided the third source based on price. Beef is probably going to be his third source, since the price is alright when some is on sale. I know he likes beef, as I usually give him a 1 oz or so piece most days; he's eaten chicken drumsticks before; had some of the cooked turkey meat during Thanksgiving and Christmas; I've thinly sliced a boiled hot dog (pork) from Whole Foods before and used it for treats before, and he liked that a lot.

For organs:
"Heart and gizzard are both considered muscle meats when it comes to nutrition and do not count as organ meat." Good to know. But how much should be in the diet, if those aren't counted towards organs? I believe people say they've found them to be 'rich' and thus limited. I think I've read people say 5% hearts/gizzards, and 5% the other organs...but that doesn't fit the preyfoodraw guideline. Should I actually do: 75% meat/10% bone/10% liver-kidney-etc./5% hearts-gizzards?

Frozen feeding?:
In the link to the article, they mention how many dogs will dislike eating organs the most, and they mention some dogs are more willing to eat them frozen. So...frozen liver, kidney, pancreas, lungs, hearts, and gizzards are all fine to feed? I've talked to others in person who say they give their dogs their RMBs and chicken drumsticks frozen, as they are a little longer lasting/keeps them busy and are good for the teeth. I've given some frozen drumsticks before...it is a few licks, some nibbling, a couple chomp-chomps, and tah-dah! It disappeared! The article says it's fine for eating bones and stuff with a just a couple chomps. Is that okay with frozen stuff; nothing bad will happen from long term doing that, right (one guy I talked to has been doing that for 7 years with his dog)? So...frozen gizzards and bones...that leads me to meat. Can you/do any of you feed the meet still frozen? If the dog likes it frozen, is thawing it necessary? Perhaps feeding everything frozen can eventually do some bad (eventual teeth damage?)? How thawed out do you guys let your stuff get? Fully thawed out? Mostly thawed out?

Random things:
-I think I've read something like, if you're feeding white meat, feed beef organs; and if feeding red meat, feed chicken organs, to provide variety in intake. Any validity/supporters of this? I would imagine if a wolf stumbled upon adjacent farms that it could snatch up a sheep from each week, it'd have no issues living like that, eating only sheep.

-Eggs: I've been wondering about how many is right and hearing different things from people, but I think I'll be doing one each day. I was reading on a forum for chicken/egg farmers about them discussing tossing eggs to their dogs. Apparently, the argument has to do with biotin deficiencies from 'too much egg.' BUT, there's pretty much no accounts of that from people who feed yolks or whole eggs. The reason being the yolk has lots of biotin, while the egg whites has an enzyme that binds biotin; however, there is not enough of the enzyme to bind all that the accompanying yolk offers. So, people who feed only the egg white to dogs have had the issue of biotin deficiencies. Therefore, some farmers toss their dogs 3 whole eggs on average each day, with no problems.

-Eggs 2: Do you count the weight of eggs towards your dog(s) food intake? I'm guessing those who feed few eggs don't, while those who feed lots do?

-Egg shells: some people I talk to just give a whole egg, break the egg & shell up together for less mess, and others don't give the shell. Your thoughts? Since he'll be getting an egg each day, would that mean I should maybe slightly reduce his bone intake? Start with the 10% bone and play it by eye to see if his stools are too firm with all the egg shells in his diet? I'm thinking it'd probably be better to reduce egg shell before reducing bone, since bone is probably more important, as eggs are less common to steal in the wild, than eating bones front hunting.

-Fats: how much should a dog be getting? Should it all be lean meats, with whatever fat is already there? Although it seems that a lot of people say ground beef is a 'no' (or at least limited) due to bacteria chances (the bacteria doesn't die after a 10 day deep freeze?), I have seen others say they feed ground beef. If feeding ground beef, should it be a certain percent? I'd feel like with how lean chicken, turkey, deer, fish, and such are, you'd want your ground beef to be 96% lean at least? Just asking in case I find some at a good sale price and want to freeze it up to include as a once a week meal thing.

I've held off on raw feeding thinking of the costs, but after running the numbers...I can probably feed raw for around the same cost as what his grain free kibble runs per day--and that's without really looking for deals; just buying stuff from local grocery stores and Trader Joe's at normal prices (Whole Foods purchasing for dog meats will probably need to be during on sale). I'm friends with someone who works in the Whole Foods meat department--might be able to give me a heads up when things are about to be reduced and such. I recall one of my brother's mentioning there being a pretty good butcher in my area, so I might be able to get extra cheap organs and such in the future there. There's an Amish market about 30 minutes from me--I can probably get some stuff there, too. And then we I do find things on sale?! Instead of breaking even, I'll be saving then! 



I'm about to head out shopping, and am going to scout out all the prices of things while there. I'll check back to answers and questions once I get back.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

That website was pretty helpful for me and I followed it pretty closely with success. For the first few days a couple of the dogs had icky poop as they worked the kibble out of their system. I did leg quarters first, then drumsticks, then backs, then necks. I waited on organs for a couple weeks. I use heart, gizzard and lung as muscle meat. At first they were ok with the lung then all of them decided they didn't like it. So I dehydrated it and they get that as treats. I give them 5% liver and 5% of two other organs, one of those is always kidney and I rotate the third one between spleen, pancreas, brains, testes, and thymus glands. They get chicken, turkey, pork, beef, goat, herring, bison and some get duck and venison too. The proteins they get are in the muscle meat and organs.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I followed the advice from the prey model raw website on how to start. I kept them on strictly chicken for about three weeks while they adjusted. Then I added a new protein every two weeks. We waited for quite some time before introducing organ meat, but that's because both of my dogs have very sensitive systems. Once you have a rotation going, try to aim for three different proteins per week. Make sure to include red meat in your rotation once you get going. 

I give Bash a few eggs, shell and all, every week. Roxy doesn't tolerate them, so no eggs for her. I do count the weight of the eggs toward the total of the meal. 

Both of mine eat partially frozen food no problem. Bash will only ear liver and kidney if they're frozen. 

I also consider heart and gizzards to be muscle meat. I go easy on heart because if I don't, icky poop happens.


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## 9mmmac (Dec 28, 2015)

Um, what? LOL. 

I obsessed with this for a while, then just jumped in. Did I mess anything up? I dunno. Grendel is 6 months and 43 lbs now; seems fine. He's lean, energetic and doesn't have any goopy eyes. How did I start? Didn't feed him for a day, then he got some premix (FreshPet) for breakfast, and pork cubes for lunch. Dinner has always been something bony- chicken backs or turkey necks. He gets a piece or two of guts with the bones. 

I believe the bones are good for keeping teeth clean as well. 

I wouldn't do wings- the bones seem too pointy and bony. Chicken legs for my puppy gave him problems with pooping- big crunchy pieces hurt going out I think. I quarter up the backs and the turkey necks are about 3 inches long. I kinda 50/50 the weights out; maybe add some pork cubes if the chicken seems skinny. I'm NOT impressed with these chicken backs- so fatty! I trim a lot of it off. I'll inspect the next batch closely, or go with thighs since Grendel's bigger now. 

He'll eat anything, cold or warm, but I let it stay out 3 or 4 hours to warm up from the fridge. 

The trick is to mix everything up and just watch their weight. I'd love to raise rabbits for a meat source; maybe next spring. But rabbit is LEAN- I'd supplement with something a bit richer. 

I'm not feeding Grendel the Fresh Pet big tubes anymore- I decided the processing and vegetable matter was not worth the money or what I wanted with raw. My feeding foundation comes from Blue Ridge Beef (controversy? Maybe, but I'm good with it and the local butcher carries it) natural mix for breakfast, pork for lunch and meaty bones/guts for dinner. That seems to cover the wide mix required for best nutrition and health. 

Note: Grendel and my old (10 yrs. old) Sheltie eat pretty much the same thing, except my Sheltie won't eat the natural mix, so I'm gonna use up the last bit of Fresh Pet (got some almost half price, and they both eat it, so... "just in case" ) and back to puppy mix for his breakfast, and bony stuff every other evening. Sheltie doesn't get lunch- his caloric intake just doesn't require it. 

It's fun shopping at the ethnic market for "exotic" stuff to put in the dog's bowl. Pork spleen? Sure! A whole goat head? Um, no. I'll try some shad or mackerel fish someday, but $2.00/lb is about my limit for dog food prices. Fish is a bit more than that- even on the coast. 

I'll hand feed Grendel a few pieces each day just to remind him of who the boss is and where Good Things Come From, but I'll let him eat most of it by himself. He's had a few bits of apple, and half of my PB&J when I dropped it. I'm betting he'll eat a carrot if I gave it to him, but I haven't tried.


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## msklein (Sep 29, 2015)

Been feeding raw to a 95 lb dog for about a month and thinking about the same things. I have been using My Pet Carnivore as a sole resource so far and my concerns are variety and cost. I made a 4 week feeding rotation spreadsheet that tracked cost and provided 3 protein sources over a one week period and 4 protein sources over a two week period. In two weeks he gets chicken 8 days, beef 3 days, pork 2 days, fish 1 day. Feeding him two lbs/day, cost runs $4.50 to $4.75 a day. So far Wolfgang loves everything, talks to me impatiently while I prepare his meals, and sprints through the house to his feeding location when it is time to eat.


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

Been considering raw feeding for the longest time and i also had concerns about how to gradually change the diet without affecting the health of the pet. Thank you for sharing.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Best advice I have is find a mentor, one person that you can pick their brain and have their help for the first few months. It's not rocket science but it's hard not to question every little thing and worry

For the first few months I highly recommend going with a premade raw, it will help give you peace of mind as their body adjusts and you can work at finding good suppliers and building those relationships which will save you tons of money in the long run. I'm able to get chicken, beef, rabbit, goose, duck, pork, salmon, turkey, and even pigeon (though I politely refused) and the most I pay is $3 a lb and it's all the best quality human grade and inspected from trustworthy suppliers. 

There's a few good Facebook groups as well, if you want to PM me I can give you a list.


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

*First, don't overthink it*

My now 80+/- pound 7 month old Shiloh has been on raw since he was 8 weeks. I followed the link posted here by the OP, as well as a few others. Not having access to a variety of the meats, I've fed my pup, my now 9-yo scotty and assorted cats a mainly ground (because my cats refuse to touch whole pieces) consisting of chicken, both whole and quarters, chicken liver, beef heart and sweetbreads, pork (mostly shoulder and rump), a few entire eggs thrown in, and if I can source beef, that gets thrown in. I don't use kidneys for the simple reason that I can't stand the smell. I'll pick up large racks of ribs for the dogs as treats for their teeth.

Maybe I've been lucky, but all of my pets have done and are doing well on this diet. Their body weight is good for them, their coats look and FEEL like mink, no doggy breath, and the best part, little poos.

The biggest thing I DO deal with is feeding the dogs the correct amount of food for their age and weight, and so far, I started my puppy at 10% of his weight, and when he hit around the 50# mark, I started feeding him the 2.5% of estimated ideal ADULT weight.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Once you have a rotation going, try to aim for three different proteins per week. Make sure to include red meat in your rotation once you get going.


3 protein sources is definitely doable. Looking to be chicken, pork, and beef. Should red meat be 50/50 with white meat, or just do an even amount (once the rotation is pretty much set in a few months). If I found a source of fish, would you go 1/4 chicken, 1/4 pork, 1/4 fish, and 1/4 beef? Or would you go 1/2 beef and split the other half into thirds?

Is variety in source of bones important to keep in mind? What about the organs?



9mmmac said:


> Um, what? LOL.
> 
> I obsessed with this for a while, then just jumped in. Did I mess anything up? I dunno. Grendel is 6 months and 43 lbs now; seems fine. He's lean, energetic and doesn't have any goopy eyes.
> 
> ...


So just try to eyeball the weight of the bone content? I figured that'd be alright, since in the wild dogs/wolves would eat a little more bone some weeks, and a little less on other weeks.
I'm curious: does anyone know if dogs will just leave behind some bones if they're receiving enough of it already/don't need more?

There are two pretty big Asian food marts fairly close by. I may check out what things they have there. Might be able to find a variety of organs there. At the stores I stopped at, the only organs I could find were beef liver, veal liver (WAY out of price for a dog lol), and some chicken hearts & gizzards packaged together.

I may not bother with chicken wings for bone feeding, since chicken and pork necks & backs were pretty well available at places and at better prices. Plus, it'll probably be a lot easier to eyeball the weight content of those bones.





Shade said:


> Best advice I have is find a mentor, one person that you can pick their brain and have their help for the first few months. It's not rocket science but it's hard not to question every little thing and worry
> 
> For the first few months I highly recommend going with a premade raw, it will help give you peace of mind as their body adjusts and you can work at finding good suppliers and building those relationships which will save you tons of money in the long run. I'm able to get chicken, beef, rabbit, goose, duck, pork, salmon, turkey, and even pigeon (though I politely refused) and the most I pay is $3 a lb and it's all the best quality human grade and inspected from trustworthy suppliers.


Yea, I know I'm getting a little specific over a few little things, but it's more for figuring ways to keep things simple, rather than turning it into rocket science. ^.^ I've talked to a few guys about their diets for their dogs, and, as we see in this thread, each person feeds a bit differently. One person I talk to seems to feed his dog more like 15% bones, as he pretty much eyeballs everything. So, rather than going off of one or two mentors and possibly getting slightly 'off' info, I'm looking to add in some knowledge and experience from feeders on here, too.

I'm looking to avoid the premade raw route. I'm understanding he'll be 'off' as he adjusts. Even just switching from one brand of dog food to another has its impact on a dog, so going from kibble to raw, I won't panic from his more noticeable transitions. In fact...I think he's already over it...he just started rejecting his kibble and will only eat raw foods! I'll post the story to that in a second post, while I ask about some things I saw while shopping yesterday.

Everything I'm looking at will also be human grade, USDA stuff. Pretty much everything I've found is under $2/lb (the most expensive things being boneless chicken breasts and nice pork chops), which already is cheaper than what his kibble costs, and my current/early pick for beef is only $3/lb. Since most organs and bone things are closer to $1/lb, my costs are already staying lower than what his kibble ran. The money isn't a major issue; I'm just feeding one dog at the time, but I do want to keep things reasonable...and I'm definitely one of those people who scour the earth for the best price I can find on something. I'll worry more about maximizing savings as things get set. Feeding raw now takes priority over saving a few bucks. But...once we get to our third dog, which we're planning for/leaning towards a male great dane...you better bet I'll have my sources/suppliers for best prices picked out LONG before than! haha :wild:

I noticed someone on Craigslist who has meat rabbits. But I think he sells them young. And at $15 each? For an 8-10 lb rabbit whole AFTER the cost of having to feed it/raise it, and then take it to a butcher? Plus the 40 minute drive each way...I don't think it's worth the costs--not to mention the wifey will NEVER let us raise something just to have it killed. Perhaps I can try contacting him and seeing if he'll raise rabbits, have them butchered, and give me a price then.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

A little story/update, followed by questions on foods to feed:

So...raw dieting has begun! A tad sooner than wanted. But...it just happened.
I guess from tossing him some beef and chicken breast here and there, and frozen chicken drumsticks with increased frequency...he went and made the change himself. He was perfectly fine/normal Sunday--very full of energy as normal: 2x happy half hour play sessions with my mother's dog, a 15 minute jog, 40 minutes of tracking in the woods, a little bit of playing/running around with a dog we met, 20 minutes swimming-retrieving, a 5 minute jog to warm up after his swim, played with our male cat throughout the day...you get the idea...he had plenty of energy all day long.
Monday morning he barfs up a ton. Looks like a bunch of his kibble from before bed, partially digested into mush, was in it. 4 hours later, a little bile thrown up. He wouldn't eat any of his kibble. I offered him about an ounce of the ground beef I was making for myself, and he ate that. Later in the evening, he did upchuck a little bile again, but no trace of the beef in it. Going potty was mostly diarrhea/soft stools. He was VERY low energy all Monday. Just laid/cuddled with the cats. No desire to play. So, two thoughts came to mind: either his body was already in full gear producing those new enzymes and rejecting all the old stuff (a 'detox' of sorts), or he may of swallowed something bad while swimming in the lake Sunday (I did see a couple beavers in there, which is a first; was afraid they had just poo'd in the area he was swimming minutes before we got there). While out Monday, I figured, "well...organs are the least like by dogs in the diet apparently; I've seen him eat enough to know he likes the meats and bones...let's see if he'll eat any organs, if I offer them." Found a pack of chicken hearts & gizzards for about a dollar; technically meat in the diet, but I saw it as a stepping stone for when we get to liver/kidneys, plus...he had been ignoring all his kibble offers, so it'd be nice to see him eat something. I didn't give him any Monday--figured let him finish fasting, if he was indeed sick.

Early Tuesday morning, my girlfriend took him outside. Offered him kibble inside. I noticed he was more of his normal self: a happy, doggy, wiggling as he's full of excitement and energy. Later, I took him outside played with him a bunch, and offered kibble inside. Both times, he didn't want the kibble. So, I figured now was good time to offer some of the hearts/gizzards. As I opened the package, our male cat was ecstatic and trying to get them out on his own. I put some in a bowl and placed it down for the dog. The cat followed the bowl down. He was sniffing it as the cat was chomping down on it. After maybe two seconds, the dog realized "this is good food!" And gave a little growl and a bark of bravado at the cat and scared him off. Mild food aggression! I was semi-proud/happy, as he then wolfed down the hearts/gizzard and looked at me for more. Before this, he has never once shown any food aggression of any sort. Ever. He's eaten beside my mother's dog. Shared with the pup we've fostered. Drinks out of a water dish happily with random other dogs while at our local dog park. Would sit & stay (quietly) while he saw me treat another dog at a park. Eating his kibble by the cat? Normally...the cat bullies him! Yes, as the dog is eating...the cat wants it, so he'll start nibbling those pointy ears and smacking him in the head. The dog will back up, sit down, and watch & wait until the cat is done eating his kibble. So...the little bark/growl over the hearts/gizzards was quite surprising. He was perfectly fine with me near his food. Throughout the day, he received the rest of the chicken drumsticks we had left. He's very annoying about those...he'll take it out of the bowl, walk around the house with it, and after a while he'll eat it. He takes forever when they're thawed: I thought he was afraid of the cats being nearby and coming by to steal it, so I let him outback to eat it. Nope--carries it around, goes pee, goes potty, comes back to the door, carries it around the house for 10 minutes, and then he finally decides to eat it. Very annoying, because he takes it out of his clean bowl and places it down onto carpeted floors, and then I see his food collecting dust and dirt. Had to take a drumstick from him and rinse it off, it was so dirty once (he had no problem handing it over to me). I wonder how he's going to be when I start putting more than one piece of boned food in his dish...
When he was done eating, I offered him his kibble. "No thanks."
When he saw the cat eating it, he walked over, "oh, hey, is there anything good in there? If you're eating it, I bet it is!" The cat moved away, the dog stuck his head in, picked up some kibble annddd...! He realized it was kibble, opened his mouth, and let it all fall out of his mouth with a look of disappointment, without even taking a single bite into it. lol
I offered him a bowl with the cats' food and he didn't want it (the dog and cats eating each others' food has been odd/annoying...it's the same brand of grain free food; pretty much the same exact thing, but had to steal each others' food--I've been tempted to just put dog kibble into the cats' dish, and cat kibble into the dog's dish and see if any of them caught on. Thankfully, this is over).

I gave him the little bit of hearts/gizzards that was left earlier today. He was slower about it this time. Seemed to pick out the hearts first. He didn't mind the cat eating out of his bowl while he was eating--must realize that these are no longer treats, and regular food for him now. His stools haven't been solid yet, but that's to be expected since his food hasn't been too high in bone, plus having some hearts mixed in doesn't help. He's now going to be getting the high bone content chicken necks & backs.



==================================================

Here are a few things I've come across while shopping, and was wondering if they're good grub for any purpose: snacking, good nutrition, good source of something, whatever. If you have any input on any of these, go right ahead and let me know your thoughts on anything. 

(If the images/links don't work for anyone, let me know and I'll add them as attachments to a post instead; was just easier to let them resize while uploading.)

First, I found these "pork long feet."








http://i67.tinypic.com/2ltknzm.jpg 
Any good?

Chicken feet.
(didn't bother to take a picture of these)
What...are these exactly? Any nutritional value? How do they fit into the diet? I think I saw in a thread somewhere that someone said their dog likes them for munching & crunching as a little treat/something to chew on. Maybe they're something to give as that on occasion?

"Pork shoulder, chunked."








http://i68.tinypic.com/10p97pt.jpg 
Does any of that look like bone to you? Or is that just cold, hard chunks of fat?

I found this frozen tilapia at a decent price.








http://i66.tinypic.com/2wrf86w.jpg 
HOWEVER, the back/ingredients list: Tilapia, Carbon Monoxide (to retain natural color). Uhhh, carbon monoxide?! As a food additive? As a gas, one would suffocate from inhaling it. Is it safe as it is used in frozen fish? I don't want to worry about whatever temperature carbon monoxide turns back to a gas, while he's licking/chewing at some fish. Until I get some info about the safety of it, it won't be bought.

Then I saw this frozen swai.








http://i67.tinypic.com/2ikwsp0.jpg 
The Ingredients list: Swai, Sodium Tripolyphosphate (added to retain moisture). Is that added thing pretty much just salt? Even if that is just a harmless salt, the amount of it is still probably too much; the sodium content seemed too high for a dog to have: 350mg for a 1/4 lb serving.
(*sigh* stuff like this is why I haven't bought any frozen food in years)

I found this "pork loin roast" for a pretty good price.















http://i65.tinypic.com/29c3sit.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/260xv2b.jpg 
Are these too fatty? Should I trim off most of that fat from the back of it? Or is it in total looking lean enough, that if I were to cut it down into smaller slabs, it'll be balanced meat/fat throughout two weeks? Though for just a few pennies more/lb I could just buy nicely sliced pork chops...would be a huge time saver (our cats make handling meat take 20x longer than it should).

Stripped chicken back portions.








http://i65.tinypic.com/302xphg.jpg
Is this just meat/fat pulled from the back bones of chickens? I don't believe I see any of the bones in there. Just a bunch of fatty chicken scraps?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I give chicken feet 2-3 times a week as a natural glucosamine for hips and joints.


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## 9mmmac (Dec 28, 2015)

@ Lombardo: What's different about the chicken feet that's good vs. bones and ligaments?

Anyway, thanks for the update Saito! My kitties almost starved when I wanted to put them on a raw diet. Eventually the Siamese got into it, but only reluctantly. Fat Cat #2 just stayed grumpy. I should note they were started on Nature's Variety chicken; kinda kitty sized frozen nuggets. I'm going to offer up some of the BRB puppy mix and see if they take to it.

In other replies, I'd skip the pork feet myself- I seem biased towards a pretty strict protein diet. It seems like the feet would have a bunch of low-nutrition value, but I think Grendel ate a pinecone yesterday, and I have no idea why. 

To me the chunked pork shoulder looks like just that. I buy pork shoulder (bone in) and trim most of the major fat off, as well as take the skin off. I seem to be averaging 30% waste by weight when the bone, skin and extra fat is weighed. A butt cut seems to be very little bone, with less skin (thinner) and less fat. I think it's from up on the shoulder area, but not sure where. They are harder to find, but I'll pay the slight increase in price for less waste and less time. I can break down a pork shoulder from wrapper to 8 oz. portions in about 45 minutes.

I don't think the C0 will do anything to the fish; I'm guessing it's in the processing like citric acid is used to preserve stuff. If you're worried, just leave it out for a little bit after thawing and it should all just evaporate away. I have never heard of swai fish; good catch on the salt! After reading about the swai fish, I'd be worried about supporting an industry that might be dangerously overfished...

Pork loin roast is a good cut- definitely people grade! I can't see the price though. I'm paying $1.15 or so for the pork shoulder roasts, and $1.45 or so for the butts. Most are 10-11.5 lbs. And as for the chicken? Ya, probably trimmings, but I have no idea how in the world the processing plant gets those. Get them if you want, but too much fat gives my dog runny poops, and he gets gassy. :crazy:


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

You're doing fine. (the following will be long)

First, I highly recommend looking and joining an online forum that deals with raw diet (If it's allowed, I'd recommend this one: Raw Feeding). Super-friendly, tons of advice. 

Second, in case you haven't already, invest in a decent knife sharpener and one or two 'deboning' knives. I like those cheapo restaurant-industry grade ones, the ones with white handles...those can cut through anything. Also a good chicken scissor, a dedicated cutting board (because they get funky after a while and IMHO, if you use it later on for cutting vegetables, they slime the peppers...) and a box of synthetic gloves. Partly to keep your hands from smelling like raw meat, and partly to be the first line to defend your poor fingers when cutting meat. Lastly, you will need a separate freezer just to store the stuff. We already have a waist-high, top-opening freezer in our garage since we tend to buy in bulk for ourselves.

Third, you need to ease up the potential food aggression issue with the cat (<my own personal opinion). I switched all my pets to raw, and while my cats were on their way to being totally raw until my husband decided that canned cat food was still sorta raw, the ones that will eat raw happily will do so and will not suffer a giant head in their space (my puppy's head probably outweighs my youngest cat but she will not hesitate to attach herself to his forehead, just sayin'). 

Fourth, the whole wandering-with-a-bone-hanging-out-of-the-mouth...I tried allowing my dogs to eat their RMBs, and a few days later, a lovely-funky smell would waft from corners of the house. If a bone was a tad on the large side, they would gnaw as much as possible, then hide the rest 'for later'. If I'm feeding them RMBs (usually an entire chicken quarter for my Shiloh, chicken thigh for my smaller dogs), they go straight in their crates where they eat anyway. Limits the path of slimey bone PLUS each one doesn't have to deal with worrying if the others, or the Evil Overlords (aka: the cats) will take their food.

As for what you are feeding, it looks very similar to my shopping cart. Because my cats prefer a 'fresher' version of the raw, we shop and prep all the food one week at a time. In a nutshell, my basic must-haves per week consist of the following (and I know I'm probably missing some nutrients, but these are the basics that I base on the 80-10-5-5% prey model):
-2 whole chickens (usually about a dollar a pound, and I consider this to be the RMB part of the diet)
-a literal bag of chicken breast, boneless.
-package of sweetbreads (part of the 'other organs')
-package of chicken liver, beef liver if they're out chicken (liver portion)
-Pork. Right now pork shoulder roasts are cheap, close to under a dollar a pound, so we use our drop-down freezer and stock up. I do not add the skin, try to avoid most of the outer fat, debone the thing, and save the bone as a treat for the dog OUTSIDE. I also pick up pork loin as well. I discard any large slabs of fat. IMHO, there is still enough fat in the meats for the diet. I don't bother anymore to buy chunked pork; most of it is fat, so by the time I go through the whole thing, I've discarded a good portion of it.
-Beef Hearts, I get 2. My horde all LOVE this. I add one to the mix to the ground, the other I cut into small chunks and use them as treats or add as a topping. This is considered 'meat/muscle'
-Chicken Hearts. I buy packages, when I get home I separate them into small sandwich bags and freeze the extra. My cats think this is the Best Thing Ever, plus, along with the beef heart, provides the necessary Taurine that cats can't produce. 
-Gizzards. considered meat/muscle. I don't always get this since I like the heart better
-Eggs. I'll toss one or two entire eggs in the mixture.
-Chicken feet. I can find these by the bagful in my local market. My cats won't touch them, the dogs will, but handling them freaks me out (they 'feel' like cold little dead hands...same for kidneys. Dogs love them, I can't stand the smell.
Beef is honestly hard to come by as it's pretty expensive even for the two of us. So our animal's beef intake is pretty much the heart, sweetbreads and liver.
I don't use supplements mostly because I keep forgetting which ones I need, but so far, everyone on my house is stupidly healthy.

I haven't tried fish yet, but I don't see why rinsing the fish before adding them to the food couldn't hurt. 

The one thing I keep hearing that is a plus in raw diets is green tripe (not the people-grade bleached tripe). One day when I finish my To Do list, I'll order some.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

9mmmac said:


> @ Lombardo: What's different about the chicken feet that's good vs. bones and ligaments?
> 
> It seems like the feet would have a bunch of low-nutrition value, but I think Grendel ate a pinecone yesterday, and I have no idea why.
> 
> ...


I looked up some stuff in regards to to chicken feet, after llombardo mentioned glucosamine.

Things like snout, tracheas, and feet are good sources of glucosamine. It came down to "things with lots of cartilage," as cartilage is 5% glucosamine. A chicken foot is about 30% cartilage, and weighs an average of 30 grams (slightly over an ounce). So, one chicken foot contains 450mg of glucosamine! Beef trachea looked to be possibly slightly higher, but I can't see it being anywhere near as cheap as chicken feet are. I found that it is recommended for a dog to get about 20mg for each pound it weighs (=500mg per 25 lbs, roughly 1 chicken foot; so 3-4 for a GSD each day).

I found an old article (links lead to removed images) on the PreyModelRaw site that has some info on foods and their bone content. Doesn't specify the content for the chicken feet, but based on things I've read and crossed the information, it looks like a chicken foot is 30% cartilage, 50% bone, and 10% meat/fat/carb (virtually no carb, though, of course).
Common Cuts: A Guide To Raw Meaty Bones - Raw Chat - PMR Articles - articles - Prey Model Raw 

I'll probably pass on the chunked pork shoulder, as it'll be too tedious to bother with. Thanks for the info about how high fat content effects on the back end. I have noticed his gassiness has decreased tremendously, and what little there has been, it's been nearly odorless; his grain free kibble was 14% fat. That pork roast is $1.94/lb. Cheapest one I've found. Cutting the boneless pork chops' fat off will be much simpler, since those will already be cut into 'slices.' Only 5 cents more/lb.

I'll look more into the CO concern later on and report back with anything I find.




brandydan said:


> You're doing fine. (the following will be long)
> 
> First, I highly recommend looking and joining an online forum that deals with raw diet (If it's allowed, I'd recommend this one: Raw Feeding). Super-friendly, tons of advice.
> 
> ...


No worries about a long reply. I'm willing to read as much as you're willing to type.  I'll read through some of that forum you recommended to see if I can gather some other good food info.

I've been considering some deboning knives. I have a couple blades that are great for meat, but absolutely stay away from bones. Although, I've been considering for when he's fully settled into the diet, I could 'cheat' the bone feeding by keeping it spaced into 2 or 3 meals through the week that fit conveniently into the weight of bone he'd need--or perhaps the numbers will work out very nicely to being 1 or 2 drumsticks/day. Then it's just easy cutting for the meats and organs.  Though I should probably get into the habit of buying the cheaper option of whole chickens and cutting them up, for when I do have more than 1 dog (though that eventual future great dane could probably just eat a whole chicken for a meal--diet hack! ha). Or maybe I'll get one of those great big ol' butcher knives and cleave everything like a boss. 

He's been doing good about the cats near him while eating. No growling/barking. I've been keeping a good eye on him while eating because I've been making sure he isn't trying to hide his food for later. He seems to be quicker to chomp down on drumsticks from Whole Foods and Trader Joe's much quicker than ones from normal grocery stores... When I gave him his egg last night, he was happy to share with the cat...because that cat is too dang stubborn to listen when something catches his eye. 

Lately, his food movement has just been to the same spot and actually eating it. We'll see how this goes as he gets new things added to his meals as the diet goes on. And yes, I've put the bowl at his 'food spot;' he just takes it out and eats next to the bowl. I think he just doesn't like it in the bowl because it inhibits the angles he can chew at it, plus it can slide around in the bowl. At least he seems to have picked a spot he likes to eat at, for the time being.

Thank you for posting your general shopping list! It's much appreciated to see that I seem to have the basis covered.

For organs, I've so far been able to locate (at reasonable prices): chicken liver, chicken kidneys, chicken hearts & gizzards (haven't found these two separate), beef heart, beef kidney, beef liver, and pork liver. I am not looking forward to having to cut up those kidneys & livers and smelling them. If it is terrible, I may just freeze them solid and then use a hammer to break them up and portion them.
No luck on finding green tripe either. Just a bunch of the white stuff. Is that considered meat or organ?

Speaking of breaking things up...does anyone have a good trick for breaking up egg shells--one that doesn't leave your hand covered in egg goop? Smashing it up with a spoon in a cup would be easy, but then I'm just washing a a cup instead of my fingers. I keep picturing something in cooking/baking shows for mashing stuff together, but have no idea what the utensil is called. A mashing stick? lol


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## 9mmmac (Dec 28, 2015)

AH! So chicken feet has good stuff in it. Hmmm. I'll see if I can find any. Are they frozen, or refrigerated? 

I just bought three pork shoulders, one is a different cut. I'll explore tomorrow and post if anybody's interested.

Also, good info about the tools needed. Since I'm a hunter, I have good meat cutting knives. I don't have a specific "deboning" knife, but they are generally bigger than a fillet knife, and between a steak knife and paring knife in size. I prefer one with a long, sweeping cutting edge. I keep steel and ceramic sticks for sharpening as needed. Also, cut with a firm drawing stroke, sawing motions don't work and aren't needed if your knife is sharp. Good kitchen shears are also worth the investment. 

I can say with a great deal of experience: DON'T WHACK FROZEN STUFF! The thin layer of slime and blood frozen to the meat will go flying off with any amount of force applied, and then you've got little bits of raw meat, blood and slime flung all over your counter, backsplash and yourself. Yuk! Much better to wait until it's thawed and then cut as above.

I don't notice too bad of a smell when making my dog's meals. Kidney isn't bad at all IMO. Maybe use an exhaust fan to blow or pull the smell away from you? Have a bleachy/soapy bowl close by to mask the smell? Maybe flash freeze them so they are firm; to help keep the odor down?


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

I couldn't find too, too much on the whole carbon monoxide/fish thing and just how healthy it truly is to ingest. What I could find out is that it is done to make fish keep their 'fresh color.' Apparently, they'll catch, it'll be out for however long, and prior to freezing it, it'll be hit with the carbon monoxide to bring out the color. Then it is usually shipped out. It'll either be kept frozen and sold (such as I found), or thawed out by your local grocer and sold as "freshly caught! Look at that color!" So, you can't ever really know how truly fresh it was before being hit with CO and frozen.


*Update on his diet:* it is going very well! He is now fine with chicken and beef. He pretty much had no issues when beef was added in. Tomorrow will be his first day with pork being added to his diet. I've been slowly working the amount of bone in his diet down, too. Tomorrow will also be when his bone intake is at the 10% mark.
I've been doing 3x meals/day. I think it helps with the transitioning of things, because then each meal is smaller when having new stuff in it. Rather than having half of his day's MM coming from a new source of meat, only 1/3 is. Plus, it allows me to better divvy up his bone intake for the day (since he gets 3x chicken feet/day), which makes each meal better 'bound' when done being digested.
After 7-10 days of good stools with pork, I'll start adding in the organs! I think I'm going to go straight to adding the organs as 10% of his meals. I'll be giving him his organs daily, rather than weekly. Not sure yet if I want to do his organs all together, with his meal that has the most bone in it, or if I want to space it out among all 3 meals. It would be much less annoying to cut them up for all with the bone meal, rather than tiny little bits. Probably going to do that.

I did go out to Wal-Mart and found a nice little digital food scale for ounces/pounds for around $14.8X, if I recall correctly. Gives me peace of mind that his meals are correct--especially since he seems to always be ready to eat more. He could be sound asleep, but he'll hear that freezer or fridge open and he'll dash on over. He's currently getting around 3.5% of what I thought would be his ideal adult body weight will be, but I'm starting to think that number is actually 3-5 lbs higher than what his full adult weight will be (unless he does end up gaining another inch at the withers before he finishes growing). Plus, that 3.5% isn't including his daily egg intake (that's an extra 2 ounces a day; nearly a pound per week extra not counted). He's definitely not overfed with all this, either; he started at 2.8% for the first 2 weeks and quickly looked too thin. Now he is maintaining a very sleek and muscular body. He is a very, very, very, active young male. His agility & speed are quite a nice sight when he's in the woods, following the scent of a bird or whatever critter he picks up.




9mmmac said:


> AH! So chicken feet has good stuff in it. Hmmm. I'll see if I can find any. Are they frozen, or refrigerated?
> 
> I just bought three pork shoulders, one is a different cut. I'll explore tomorrow and post if anybody's interested.
> 
> ...


I find the feet refrigerated, near the rest of the meat area, at a grocery store chain (Shoprite). One store once had them in the freezer of that area. That threw me off that day--and it was annoying because they were all frozen together, while I wanted to have a chicken with his next upcoming meal that day. You might be able to request things at some grocery stores. I know Whole Foods sells some things, but only has them out after a request for it comes in (such as chicken backs: they'll have 40 lbs come in, if anyone requests any, and then what is left from what is requested will be put out for shoppers, and no more are ordered until there is another request for more).


My plan for whacking the frozen stuff was with it contained in 2 or 3 plastic bags--and outside of the house, on the driveway. Sounds like a terrible mess without containment and in the house! :wild: But that's only if the smell is really terrible. I'm thinking it won't be, though.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

I'm adding the organs into his diet now.

He won't touch the chicken liver or kidney. He seems very interested in it, but once he goes to it...he just does the weird thing he does with lettuce (a weird licking sound with his tongue onto the roof of his mouth). Sniffed at it a lot each time I offered (tried smaller pieces, too). When I gave some to my female cat, she carried it to the far side of the table and loved it. My dog followed her over, sniffing up at her and she gave him some super mean growls. Tried giving him some again and still didn't want it.


But beef liver and kidney? He gobbled those up quickly.
Offered the chicken ones again after...nope.

I had found veal kidney. Gobbled that up as well. Gave him a small piece of chicken kidney...picked it up, but then realised it wasn't the veal kidney and put it back into the plate.
(side note: veal kidney came in an air vacuumed package for cheaper than the beef kidney...however, veal liver costs over twice as much as the beef liver. Nonsense.)

I saw pork liver last week. Didn't have any for today to try, though.

I'm freezing some chicken kidney & liver for tomorrow to see if he'll eat it frozen. If not...would beef & pork liver and beef & veal kidney be sufficient for organ intake if I can't get him to eat the chicken ones, too? Currently trying to find some lungs/pancreas to add in but haven't had any luck. No luck on green tripe either. :/


Also, just to be sure...here's a picture of the beef kidney and veal kidney (some unwanted chicken liver/kidney next to it). Those big bits of white...that's just fat, right? Nothing special there, and I should just cut around it while portioning, right?
























After about 5 months now, he has figured out how to eat carrots! Thank goodness. I like to take a couple baby carrots and cut them into smaller pieces and use those as treats now.
About a month before getting the hang of carrots, he figured out eating little pieces of apples fairly quickly. And after a bit of confusion, he learned he likes watermelon. 

10 seconds for apples...1 minute for watermelons...5 months for carrots. lol


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

The white around the kidneys is not just fat - it's suet!!! Why do you trim the fat away from your guy's meal? Are you adding a plant or fish based fat in the place if animal fat you are removing? Does he have health issues that require a low fat diet? Meh. My guys get full fat meat pieces plus coconut and fish oil. If he's been eating lean you might have to work up to full fat amounts but no need to throw away all those calories in the trash imho. 

If you need him to eat chicken liver and he isn't going for it raw try cooking it. You can reduce cooking time until it is raw as he gets used to it. I have never had a dog turn down cooked liver. 

Lung is muscle meat like heart. It's not a secreting organ. Personally I don't believe Kidney and liver alone is enough. I can find brain, spleen, pancreas, and testes on a regular basis at the Hispanic and Asian supermarkets around town. I also order online. I use hare-today or mypetcarnivore for green tripe and organ blends.

Also K9 naturals sells freeze dried raw green tripe. It's $17 per bag and reconstitutes to over 2lbs. It's one of the better values I found . You can always try that while hunting down a source for fresh tripe.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

That's right, that is suet! I forgot that kidneys hold the suet. I know that suet has a special purpose for baking and stuff, but does it have any real nutritional difference than other animal fat? Just curious. I had fed him with it, and then after reading your post, I decided I should be letting him have the suet, since the point of a raw diet is to imitate a natural diet. And since a dog wouldn't be cutting the suet out, I shouldn't be doing so for it. Keeping all the suet also makes the cutting process a heck of a lot easier, too.







I do trim the big globs of fat off his meat, but I do leave some fat on it. I try to keep the fat under control. His old kibble was 14% fat and he was gassy with it. We can breathe again now that he's on a raw diet and has his fat intake more in check. He is getting fish oil daily.

I bought him some pork liver and kidney to try out. I had high hopes for it. After saying that, you all know what that means: it didn't go well. He wouldn't eat either raw. I tried wearing pork kidney first. Nope. Cooked it up a little more. No. Little more. No. More. No. More No. Finally it was 100% cooked and he ate it. Have tried some slightly less cooked and wouldn't eat it.
He REALLY didn't like the pork kidney raw. I even took a tiny piece of it and stuck it to a considerably larger piece of beef to see if he'd bite into it and realize he likes it. Nope. And Even after I took the kidney away he wouldn't touch the beef. And he LOVES beef.

The pork liver was better, though. He wouldn't eat it raw. But an insanely brief seer, and he'd gobble it up. And by insanely breif, I mean putting it into the pan, flipping it as fast as I could, and then removing it as fast as I could. He won't touch it if it is 100% raw, but if the .01 millimeter outsides were seered, he was fine with the inner centimeter being all raw. After the super light seerings, I placed it into the freezer. Oddly enough, it now looks like it was never seered at all. It just looks all red/raw again. But he'll eat that. *sigh* Hopefully when I buy it again, he'll be accepting of it without having to seer it.

I don't know of any Hispanic markets in my area (I'll have to try looking up some). I did check the two Asian markets in my area. The only organs they had were kidney/liver of chicken/beef/pork. They did have pork tongues, but at a higher price than I can just find pork chops for, so that would be a pointless meat. They also had pig ears. I think I've heard of ears as occasional treats. I'm thinking of giving him a frozen one maybe once a week. They are pretty good sized. Shall I count those towards his muscle meat intake for that day?

$17 for 2 lbs of tripe...that sounds a bit high for the dog food budget. If I have that shipped, looking at over $10/lb! 
Though I may be looking for some kind of organ premix if I can't find any more organs around here. :/

I also found this, pork stomach: 








Would this be muscle or organ? Of course, it might not matter if he won't touch this, too. 

And lastly I found this frozen fish, whiting:









(forgot to picture it at the store. Here it is, now pretty much all thawed out (via fridge))

Only $1.69/lb?! That's a cheap price for some fish! But me not being to stand the taste of any fish, I don't know much about different kinds of fish. Is this whiting nutritional good? This page makes it sound like a safe food to be feeding. Input on this would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/532042-is-whiting-fish-good-to-eat/


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Small update: found out through raw feed sites that whiting is indeed fine to be feeding.
Sadly, the fish just kept thawing and thawing! Out of the package, it ended up being 51% fish, and 49% ice by weight. Still...around $3.30/lb for a fish source isn't too bad.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The pork stomach is probably bleached for human consumption, so it would be pretty low nutritional value. You can still feed it, but don't count on it for a regular source of MM (I'm guessing it would count as an MM, not sure what category it would fall into - I personally would regard is as an occasional treat, not as part of a regular diet).


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