# Does this dog look nervous?



## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I am new to learning dog behavior and signals. This poster posted this on youtube to show his dogs are okay around children. His dogs are trained in protection. However when my dog would lick his lips around children that are running around my trainer said he was anxious or nervous. Am I right to think this dog is giving off nervous energy? Why wouldnt a professional see this? Or am I wrong and there are other body signals showing this dog is okay and fine with whats going on Id like to know so I can assess my dogs anxiety better.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It looks to me like a dog being "proofed" on the down stay, and he's in conflict, but he's doing his darnedest to obey the command under heavy distraction.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Freestep said:


> It looks to me like a dog being "proofed" on the down stay, and he's in conflict, but he's doing his darnedest to obey the command under heavy distraction.


Good to know. So not all lip licking means anxiety. It can also mean he wants to get up and play but working on controlling his stay command.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Thats not necessarily a reaction to children. It could be response to the methods used to train the dog to maintain the down under distraction. We have a sport dog here that was knocked around by ecollar a year ago before he was brought back while training basic positions and he still licks lips a lot out of nervousness. Especially when put into working mode for those positions.

Anyway you are right the dog is under stress.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, the dog is stressed and is throwing off calming signals like crazy - can't say if the stress is from being just a generally anxious dog, or if it is because he has been trained with heavy compulsion in the down/stay, or because the kids are allowed to jump on the dog and maul the dog, and the dog has been punished for reacting to the kids - could be a number of reasons. 

From this video, I can't tell what the dog's base temperament is like, or what the poster means when he says the dog is protection trained. The dog looks very young still - like maybe a year old? What I see is a young dog asked to do something that makes him stressed (hold the down) - either because of the training he received associated the command with stress, or the unpredictable nature of the kids is causing him stress (I think both factors are at play here).

This is not a video that I would be posting on you tube and bragging about how solid my dog is.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Based on the responses given...I have a question....what are you shooting for in this situation as far as the dog's bodyspeak? I do not disagree with the observations made as I sense the dog is really "trying"....nothing wrong with that....could be new to this particular game amongst many things.


SuperG


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Based on the responses given...I have a question....what are you shooting for in this situation as far as the dog's bodyspeak? I do not disagree with the observations made as I sense the dog is really "trying"....nothing wrong with that....could be new to this particular game amongst many things.
> 
> 
> SuperG


My dog was showing the same signs in a park we train at mostly licking lips (just not as much as this dog) with Kids running around playing etc behind him. He has been around children and does really well with them. Trainer said to pay more attention to his signs that hes nervous. I am researching signals of anxious dogs. yet when I came across this video the comments on you tube said they dont see any signs of nervousness. From what im learning it is, so Im asking if there are other signs that this dog is giving off that means the lip licking is not anxiety or I am seeing it right that it is.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I definitely see anxiety. Not only is he licking his lips, but turning his head away in avoidance.

I also wish the owner knew how much dogs hate being patted on top of the head. Kids should not be doing that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You are seeing it right. The dog is licking his lips, and the dog is looking away, and avoiding. In 52 seconds, I can't be sure the dog is stressed because the kids are rough-housing, or because it has to maintain its down stay (definitely looks compelled to stay in a DOWN position). But the stress is definitely there.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Msmaria said:


> My dog was showing the same signs in a park we train at mostly licking lips (just not as much as this dog) with Kids running around playing etc behind him. He has been around children and does really well with them. Trainer said to pay more attention to his signs that hes nervous. I am researching signals of anxious dogs. yet when I came across this video the comments on you tube said they dont see any signs of nervousness. From what im learning it is, so Im asking if there are other signs that this dog is giving off that means the lip licking is not anxiety or I am seeing it right that it is.


Oh.... I am not a learned individual in that department....but trying to become more in tune with what you ask of, as well. I didn't even know licking lips was a sign of nervousness or anxiety of some sorts.....so thanks for mentioning it in your original post with video. Wish I could give you a better analysis....but I do see the dog's eye contact basically one of two directions....one looking at the running fun loving children ...and the dog's look to me says..."they do call me a Shepherd....but I will repress this innate attribute I am known for" equals struggle or "conflict"....and then the other direction the dog looks to many times and at these times the dog makes other body changes ( subtly )...the dog's eyes say to me...in this direction is the master/command giver/human...and dog knows he is to obey and perform as trained...and eventually she/he will release me...but I sure hate waiting.....equals struggle. So, I see "struggle" being the overriding theme.

I have no idea how they came to get the dog to behave as such....I would hope it was in method which works successfully and perhaps the dog is very new at this and this is one of his first proofing attempts.

This all in my own opinion ....which is rather limited....but always looking to learn.

SuperG


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm just wondering how should the dog act in this scenario?

I think no dog actually likes children running around it and rubbing it's head when it has to stay in one position.

If people check out the other videos with this dog, it doesn't look uncomfortable around the children at all, when they are just standing by his side.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I'm just wondering how should the dog act in this scenario?
> 
> I think no dog actually likes children running around it and rubbing it's head when it has to stay in one position.
> 
> If people check out the other videos with this dog, it doesn't look uncomfortable around the children at all, when they are just standing by his side.


This is what I asked earlier....and hope someone replies.

SuperG


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I'm just wondering how should the dog act in this scenario?
> 
> I think no dog actually likes children running around it and rubbing it's head when it has to stay in one position.
> 
> If people check out the other videos with this dog, it doesn't look uncomfortable around the children at all, when they are just standing by his side.


FYI- this video came up because i was researching children and dog anxiety signals (since that was the situation I was in.)my dog was doing the same thing licking lips and moving his paws forward. Then i saw that people said there were no signs of anxiety. So now Im confused. so Im asking.
Dont take it personal . this is not an attack on the person that OMG their dog is going to bite those kids..lol..Or that the dog should look super happy and roll over..lol. This is a question on whether im reading the anxiety right since the owner and trainer of this dog said theres NO sign of nervousness.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

MadLab said:


> I'm just wondering how should the dog act in this scenario?


 Which scenario? A scenario where the dog is in a down-stay under heavy distraction, or a more natural scenario where kids and dogs are just hanging out in the backyard?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I'm just wondering how should the dog act in this scenario?





> Which scenario? A scenario where the dog is in a down-stay under heavy distraction


Yeah, The scenario in the video clip in this thread. 

How should the dog act? 

To me a stable dog may show some signs of discomfort but would allow the children to proceed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The dog is showing some stress.

Looking at the rest of the videos on the channel, I would say that there is some heavy compulsion used in training positions. IMO, that's where the stress is coming from.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Yeah, The scenario in the video clip in this thread.
> 
> How should the dog act?
> 
> To me a stable dog may show some signs of discomfort but would allow the children to proceed.


 Well, that's exactly what he did.

I personally prefer to see a dog watching the handler when put into a down-stay, alert yet calm, and ignoring everything else going on around him rather than being worried about it.

Once when I took a herding class, I watched the instructor put her Border Collie into a down-stay (or whatever you call it in herding) while a 4 month old pup was being introduced to the sheep. The puppy was all over the place, goofing off, trying to entice the Border Collie into play, and the BC just held her position, keeping her eye on her owner, caring as much about the puppy as a fly buzzing around her ear. Rock solid.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Freestep said:


> Well, that's exactly what he did.
> 
> I personally prefer to see a dog watching the handler when put into a down-stay, alert yet calm, and ignoring everything else going on around him rather than being worried about it.
> 
> Once when I took a herding class, I watched the instructor put her Border Collie into a down-stay (or whatever you call it in herding) while a 4 month old pup was being introduced to the sheep. The puppy was all over the place, goofing off, trying to entice the Border Collie into play, and the BC just held her position, keeping her eye on her owner, caring as much about the puppy as a fly buzzing around her ear. Rock solid.


That sounds more like a behaviour I would be comfortable with!

To the OP you sound like you know more than you think! Trust your instincts!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know what, that u-tube was disturbing. Not so much that I was worried the dog would jump up and eat the kids, but that the dog seemed so stressed. 

If my dog was that stressed in training a basic command, I would be embarrassed, and look hard at how I train, and what this dog might need to boost her confidence level. A dog should be alert or relaxed, but not worried like this dog is.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Thank you. I guess that means I got more counter conditioning etc . work to do.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

lol slowly crawl away from screaming kids...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs may be stressed, but if it is something that we are doing to cause it, like demanding that the dog stay down while children are running around, then, I wouldn't be proud of it, or use it to showcase my dog or my training. 

If your dog is acting like this one in an area that is quite busy, I would probably step back a little and expose him to less busy and for less time.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

The kids really got to the poor dog.

I was so lucky with Banjo, he loved kids and was smart enough to know that kids posed no threat/harm to him. He just squinted his eyes, closed up his ears and soaked in the rubs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is not 'some' stress - the constant, very obvious lip licking and completely turning the head away is a lot of stress. 

The occasional flick of the tongue, some panting, looking away (maybe turning the head 45 degrees as opposed to 90 degrees) would be some stress. 

This is a LOT of stress.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Also notice that the children are not interacting with the dog aside from what I can only assume is the camera person telling them to pet the dog. They aren't looking at the dog or inviting him to play. They are maintaining distance.

I took a great seminar about dog body language years ago. It was called "I'm telling you that I am going to bite you." the follow up was "I'm really going to bite you." One of the take aways was that sometimes our bodies and nervous system are better at reading dog signals than our conscious mind. I think most people have felt that moment of hesitation when encountering a stressed dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stressed/nervous because of the kids, not because they are all over the place, but because he is worried about what they are doing and would prefer to be closer to them. I think if he was released he would not have ran the other way but toward them. He looks young and would probably prefer to play then work. I think I see this because in my thought process I don't think anyone is stupid enough to put little kids in harms way and take a chance that the dog will bite.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

is ALL lip licking bad? i know my dog licks his lips sometimes. i'd like to think its because they are chapped and not because he has anxiety.

plus theres a big difference between anxiety and stress. not all stress is bad. i want my dog to handle stress. i dont want my dog to have anxiety.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The title of the youtubey is "this is something for the ignorant people in protection that make ignorant comments " I wonder if they meant "this is something for people ignorant ABOUT protection that make ignorant comments".

The dog looks good, steady . 

Here are comments under the youtube "*Published on Oct 28, 2013 *
I made this video to prove how people make ignorant comments about how my daughter's German Shepherd can react or will respond if my daughter is playing with her friends in a rough manner and perhaps " the dog will get confused and go after the children and rip them apart". When I do not know something I do not say anything. I just say "I am sorry...I do not know anything about this subject or matter". Better than to make a stupid comment and look stupid. I am a professional in what I am doing and I train dogs in a professional manner. The only thing I can say to you guys is that there are not that many PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS. And that is when "accidents" can happen ( poor training done by incompetent people that call themselves "trainers" ). Be careful and be aware out there."

Obviously he has had criticism , about training the dog in bite work , which will lead to savagery and lack of control , putting his children in harms way.

If you ask me the dog looks good . Steady. 

I think he would have made a better argument if the dog had been free and loose with the kids -- dog is not prey stimulated , he would have "just" been there . Instead to make a point he goes into super control mode .

Having been competitive obedience participant and apprenticing for judge I have seen my fair share of dogs from both perspectives. You have to size up and predict what may happen . Keep an eye on any shaky dog that may get up from one of the stays and stroll over to yours -- or as judge, to place yourself in a position which would hold the dog - or so you can scoop the dog in the out of sights in the CDX and beyond . ALSO , when you observe the dog , especially with this signalling then you look back to the handler . You are supposed to be neutral . Often you look and the handler will be drilling the dog with eye contact as if that can pin the dog to the floor . Or the handler will have body posture , wide leg stance , arms folded , or chin down and eyeing the dog . Those will be the teams to keep an eye on.

What I see with this dog is no distress with the kids , which is why I would have liked to see free interaction -- but an insecure , submitting , signalling to the handler (with camera?). To make his point he may have been hard , too fast , to abrupt , in teaching the down stay , and proofing it . Dog may not have understood command to stay and has followed the handler , who responded by gathering the dog and pop pop correct correct , return dog , repeat sequence. 
If the dog were to break the down stay he would come running toward the handler --- 

I see this as a training issue .


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the person shooting that uses
it as a training or selling tool
apparently because here is more
of his garbage
imo
it's lunacy





and 1 more


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a little unrealistic to train your dog to the point where it has to endure little unpredictable creatures crawling over it during a down? When is that ever going to have a practical application. I understand that you need to proof your dog, but I think that should be to things that the dog might encounter under everyday circumstances, that are out of your control i.e. if it see's another dog from across a field or see's a cat that it wants to chase. 

And if you're managing your dog properly they should never be asked to down in situation such as this. Maybe it's just me but I don't see the need to force my dog to interact with strange children, or even my own (if I have some in the future) whilst downing ESPECIALLY if it's something that is stressing out my dog unnecessarily. Like a certain poster said below, you want your dog to learn to deal with stress but these should be within reason.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a little unrealistic to train your dog to the point where it has to endure little unpredictable creatures crawling over it during a down? When is that ever going to have a practical application. I understand that you need to proof your dog, but I think that should be to things that the dog might encounter under everyday circumstances, that are out of your control i.e. if it see's another dog from across a field or see's a cat that it wants to chase.
> 
> And if you're managing your dog properly they should never be asked to down in situation such as this. Maybe it's just me but I don't see the need to force my dog to interact with strange children, or even my own (if I have some in the future) whilst downing ESPECIALLY if it's something that is stressing out my dog unnecessarily. Like a certain poster said below, you want your dog to learn to deal with stress but these should be within reason.


IMHO, it depends on the dog. If he's stressed out about it, I wouldn't allow it, but would work on counter conditioning for safety until the dog was comfortable being around the kids in a submissive position. I would never expect every dog to be handled roughly by kids though.

Below is Lucian and my G'daughter Emma. He will give a little grumbly growl if she is bugging him, but never shows any stress. No lip licking, look aways, stiffness, lip raising... There is a big difference between "go away kid, you are bothering me," and "I don't trust you."











He shares his bones with her.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Archer loves children, but when he's around them his tail is loose and his tongue lolls out and he looks relaxed and happy, not tense and licking his lips or turning his head away. And EVEN knowing his likes children, I still don't put him in situations where he might be stressed by them. But then I'm raising a pet, not a protection dog, so the parameters are different no doubt.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> the person shooting that uses
> it as a training or selling tool
> apparently because here is more
> of his garbage
> ...


 What lunacy? Dog seems quite stable and controlled in those vids, if anything they show that the stress is caused by the type of training the dog recieved in the long down. 
If your issue is with a child doing protection work have a look at the 8 yr old girl who competed in the USA ipo nationals finished 18th. You better believe she started earlier than that there is nothing wrong with a child doing this type of stuff as long as there is strong parental supervision and the dog is suited to it as this one clearly is.
I daresay many on this forum would be hard-pressed to have their dog perform similarly.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I"m not that afraid of stress, dogs need to learn to deal with it just like people do. It doesn't go away just because you want it to. Of course I have limits, but stress on it's own isn't always bad, it's just as often good.

anyway, this dog is stressed by the situation, i don't think it's because he is unstable or has issues with kids. I think it's caused by "how" it was trained, or it wasn't really trained and a camera was brought out and he was made to hold a down and he wasn't clear on all the rules yet. I'm betting with a small amount of time and some decent work he looks much different.

I don't think this video says much about the dog around kids other than he's fine around them. It's a short vid, but I'm guessing I wouldn't have a problem with him around kids either.

My first dog couldn't hold a long down for ****  Of course I had "help" from those in the biz for 30 years training her and the method was a hook in the ground with a leash from underneath and when she'd break it, she'd get strangled back to earth. 

Thankfully that was the only dog I ever was dumb enough to do that with, but I was new and dumb. But that dog never did have a good down for trial or anything. Could drop on a dime, but hold it??? she'd whine and crawl and lick and sneak her way as close to me as she could get. I bet she looked a lot like this guy. Coincidently, none of my other dogs have had that issue, none of them had to endure what she did either.

But as "stressed" as she was on a down, she was a rock solid dog in every other way. Kids??? Please, run with her, jump on her, wrestle with her, she understood kids very well, and she didn't have any of her "own" .


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> is ALL lip licking bad?


No, I think it is part of normal day-to-day communication in every-day situations. You might lean over your dog to grab something, and dog gives a quick little nose lick. I might be walking along and stub my toe, and cry out, and dog may not be sure what my problem is, so a quick little nose lick. I see my dogs play fight, then it gets loud and serious sounding, so they both break it up, one gives a wink, the other gives a quick nose lick, both are saying - "It's cool! Didn't mean it! Still friends?" and they go back to rough-housing. 

Also a dog that feels nauseated and feels sick will do a lot of lip-licking too, but usually they are looking down at the ground when not feeling well. 

But the above are very different than the constant, very obvious lick liking as seen in this video.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

told you it was a good dog .
myboydiesel that is not lunacy , those videos would have made the mans point .
this is a stable , clear dog . The children are NOT the issue . The issue was a dog with strong attachment - who was crawling forward , at end of session probably flew back to handler , who might have had corrections immediately prior to the video shoot , which were done because the man had a point to make , might have been emotional , angry , wanted to vindicate "show them" a protection trained dog is safe -- and so did things himself , stressed, which the dog picked up and reflected . 
The "attachment" is the strong pack drive , bond , easy to work with. 

you go to obedience trials in the long downs , downs out of sight , (indoors) and you will see dogs twisting , switching sides, whistling, head scanning side to side, eyes, nose flicking , and when they get up , or on the stand stays -- evidence of sweaty feet on the cement floor of the arena.

even though the dog was stressed in the down stay he was still clear - those kids would not have been harmed .
now you want to talk about stress look at the schutzhund - evidence of stress , no outs, control lost, hyper ramped up, squealing , screaming , getting reactive to things in environment .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this "ALL lip licking bad? No, I think it is part of normal day-to-day communication in every-day situations. You might lean over your dog to grab something, and dog gives a quick little nose lick. " and the rest of Castlemaids post.

you have to look at the big picture . sometimes that nose flick can be seen in highly intense situations , extreme concentration , a terrier standing rigid at the opening of a critter den -- a dog tracking taking up scent , even high humidity where the nose starts to dribble - watch and see how many of your own dogs do this when you have them wait before they get their cookie treat - anticipation

in the thread why does my dog keep throwing his paw at me -- I bet you he is doing this , if your dog is not feeling up to snuff , not feeling 100% he may do this -- it is a CARE soliciting communication, also.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what about this one ? 



 
clearly not -- high concentration !!

by the way David Winners thanks for those links - the guy is good , the dogs are good ,


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If you ever had someone take dozens of action shots of you while you are working your dog, you'd be suprised at how many times your dog actually licks it's lips. It's a great training tool for the handler to realize how much pressure they are putting on their dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

One of my GSDs didn't like cats. Whenever my cat was within his view, he always turned his head in avoidance. It was great that he didn't chase her, but simply ignored her. If anyone saw a video of him doing it, they'd say he was very stressed, because he turned his head as far as he could, lol. But it was just him expressing himself.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I just find it funny people are putting down this guy and his training because OMG the dog is so stressed! I'm tempted to call people out because I bet most people here can't even put their dog in a down stay and walk away. 

The dog is trained for personal protection! It doesn't matter if he likes being touched by kids or not. Imo it doesn't matter if the dog is stressed. He's being proofed to deal with every situation imaginable. A good ppd is aloof anyways. The fact that the dog is stressed and doesn't break the down speaks more to me than a dog that breaks that stay.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thats the internet. Judgements made by people who still have to take their dogs to basic obedience class because they cant train anything to save their own lives.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Attacking members and their opinion and the level of training they may or may not have achieved is uncalled for. Such put downs don't make the person saying them look better or give them more credibility than others - it just makes them look petty, and judgmental, which is pretty ironic.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> What I see with this dog is no distress with the kids , which is why I would have liked to see free interaction -- but an insecure , submitting , signalling to the handler (with camera?). To make his point he may have been hard , too fast , to abrupt , in teaching the down stay , and proofing it . Dog may not have understood command to stay and has followed the handler , who responded by gathering the dog and pop pop correct correct , return dog , repeat sequence.
> If the dog were to break the down stay he would come running toward the handler ---
> 
> I see this as a training issue .


 Agreed. The point of the video was to show that the dog is fine with kids, which he appears to be. He's holding the down-stay, he's showing self-control, which is a good thing, but he's also showing conflict. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either, but he's not totally relaxed or comfortable.



crackem said:


> I"m not that afraid of stress, dogs need to learn to deal with it just like people do. It doesn't go away just because you want it to. Of course I have limits, but stress on it's own isn't always bad, it's just as often good.
> 
> anyway, this dog is stressed by the situation, i don't think it's because he is unstable or has issues with kids. I think it's caused by "how" it was trained, or it wasn't really trained and a camera was brought out and he was made to hold a down and he wasn't clear on all the rules yet. I'm betting with a small amount of time and some decent work he looks much different.


 Agreed.



carmspack said:


> this is a stable , clear dog . The children are NOT the issue . The issue was a dog with strong attachment - who was crawling forward , at end of session probably flew back to handler , who might have had corrections immediately prior to the video shoot , which were done because the man had a point to make , might have been emotional , angry , wanted to vindicate "show them" a protection trained dog is safe -- and so did things himself , stressed, which the dog picked up and reflected .
> The "attachment" is the strong pack drive , bond , easy to work with.
> 
> you go to obedience trials in the long downs , downs out of sight , (indoors) and you will see dogs twisting , switching sides, whistling, head scanning side to side, eyes, nose flicking , and when they get up , or on the stand stays -- evidence of sweaty feet on the cement floor of the arena.
> ...


 Again, agreed.

When I was proofing my dog for the down-stay, I noticed she would sometimes yawn. She was solid, but showed that little stress. To me it was not necessarily a bad thing, it showed that she was working through her conflict and using self-control, and it was good information for me to have. I'd rather have a dog that is obedient, but honest.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

recall is one of the most important control modes -- call off from being sent out to bite, call back from running pursuit in prey , recall from any distraction . so a dog that has high attachment to begin with -- reinforced with positive recalls, may be fidgety on the down stays . What a shame the video didn't run longer to show the dog on release . I bet anything he would have been prancing around , happy and relaxed.

The other videos provided GERMAN SHEPHERD PROTECTING 4 YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL FROM BAD GUY - YouTube show you that the dog is not stressed by the proximity of children. A stressed dog is not open to being commanded by a 5 year old girl. When the dog is engaged in the bite work -- if he were stressed --- would have redirected , let go , even for a moment , when the 5 year old girl was trying to position herself to take charge of the dog to out him , which he did without any residual aggressive behaviour.

I'd like to see more dogs like this .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> Attacking members and their opinion and the level of training they may or may not have achieved is uncalled for. Such put downs don't make the person saying them look better or give them more credibility than others - it just makes them look petty, and judgmental, which is pretty ironic.


Kind of like people attacking the youtube poster and his training when they clearly dont know what they are talking about?


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

How do the more experienced members here like this discussion of interpreting a dog's body language? 


How to Interpret Your Dog's Body Language, Facial Expressions and Vocalizations


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> I just find it funny people are putting down this guy and his training because OMG the dog is so stressed! I'm tempted to call people out because I bet most people here can't even put their dog in a down stay and walk away.
> 
> The dog is trained for personal protection! It doesn't matter if he likes being touched by kids or not. Imo it doesn't matter if the dog is stressed. He's being proofed to deal with every situation imaginable. A good ppd is aloof anyways. The fact that the dog is stressed and doesn't break the down speaks more to me than a dog that breaks that stay.


Well said. I've seen some terrible trained dogs and their owners always make excuses and say well he just got excited or blah blah.

My only thing with this video, he's claiming the dog won't harm the children but yet, forced it into a down stay. Sorry, I have to call bull on that. All this proves is his dog listens, and listens extremely well.

The only way to truly tell is to let the dog be a dog and play with the kids and see how the dog reacts when they start tugging on his ears and screaming and running from him. 

And I'm pretty sure nothing would happen because this dog is trained and seems to be pretty solid.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

GSKnight, I don't find it helpful myself. For one thing, I dislike illustrations - actual pictures are so much better. Also, it's too rudimentary. A full-on snarl is so obvious, but the dogs will lift their lips in almost unperceivable amounts too. It's better to react to those tiny displays than to wait for the full show.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*I am learning here - a good thing - appreciated as well..........*

I watched the first three videos.. Everybody seems to be in agreement here. Personally, I am going to look into this subject matter because I find it more than interesting. I did not see it at first, but I am not the one to judge in advanced training, so it's pay attention and learn from here on on this subject matter.. Thank you everybody involved, INTERESTING to say the least.

Food proofing is another factor to look into.. I am not letting too many individuals get near the pup and my older dog is very cautious..:apple:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Once when I took a herding class, I watched the instructor put her Border Collie into a down-stay (or whatever you call it in herding) while a 4 month old pup was being introduced to the sheep. The puppy was all over the place, goofing off, trying to entice the Border Collie into play, and the BC just held her position, keeping her eye on her owner, caring as much about the puppy as a fly buzzing around her ear. Rock solid.


I wasn't impressed by the video. This ^^^ I would find very impressive!!! That is what I'd look for in a solid dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes , about the food proofing , once again the tension in self control -- even at the Campagne trial , (French Ring) where we had top level Ring 3 dogs in competition (first North American Campagne trial) . One exercise is food refusal with dog on down stay , owner out of sight , long period of absence , crowd / competitors / spectators, panel of judges present . Judge or assistant takes strips of beef , liver , cheese, and tosses the food AT the dog , between the dogs paws, one strip of beef landed on bridge of dogs nose. Those dogs were so intense --- fought hard to resist temptation , there was some nose flicking . These dogs were powerful , confident , self controlled dogs .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

So we can all agree the dog is under tension and stress before we go back to attacking or being misunderstood as attacking training methodologies?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Poor OP just wanted some clarification on the dog's body language, lol.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lol yeah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> yes , about the food proofing , once again the tension in self control -- even at the Campagne trial , (French Ring) where we had top level Ring 3 dogs in competition (first North American Campagne trial) . One exercise is food refusal with dog on down stay , owner out of sight , long period of absence , crowd / competitors / spectators, panel of judges present . Judge or assistant takes strips of beef , liver , cheese, and tosses the food AT the dog , between the dogs paws, one strip of beef landed on bridge of dogs nose. Those dogs were so intense --- fought hard to resist temptation , there was some nose flicking . These dogs were powerful , confident , self controlled dogs .


Why would anyone want to do this with a dog? I see people put the dumb treat on the dog's foot or nose and make them wait until they tell them they can have it. I just hate crap like that. Oooooh! I'm the alpha, I can make you wait to eat your treat. 

The dog in the vid might be solid -- I am talking the first 52 second video where the kids are playing and the dog is licking his lips and turning away, and acting stressed when the kids are playing with each other -- why should he be stressed? That kid lives with it, or at least they are making all those vids with the dog. I have a bitch that can do a down stay when kids she knows, sees sometimes once a week, sometimes once a month, roughhouse. They can handle her, and walk her on a busy bike path. And she doesn't give off avoidance signals, and isn't stressed out. 

The dog doesn't look all that solid. It may look antsy as to what is next. It might be wondering what protection stuff it will be faced with next. But that wasn't a situation for serious stress. This dog looks like it would go to pieces in a dog show with thousands of dogs, loud speakers, people milling, etc. If a couple of brats playing and ignoring the dog makes it stressed, what's the world coming too? I wouldn't want that dog. I wouldn't give it kennel space.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Obedience training is about teaching the dog to comply with unnatural behaviors. Food refusal is an obedience exercise in the dog sport French Ring. You certainly don't have to dominate the dog, or be all "alpha" (whatever that is) to teach food refusal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh dear - Campagne and Night Trials (which are not phony title schutzhund trials ) imitate the conditions in which a dog would have to work , practical and functional , real life . The HGH type dog was not a border collie dog but a living fence going from meadow to meadow, town to town , to the hills in the annual transhumance .
The dog may be parked out in front of the gasthaus , or pub where the shepherd was taking his meal . A dog must not take bribes , refuse food for safety . A great deal of some very special qualities have been lost . Saw a video of a 20 minute interview , in German, young lady student interviewing shepherd with large flock doing land management . He had two dogs , which would lay behind him , keeping an eye on these 200 hundred or so sheep which were starting to creep in ones or twos closer to the roadway . The dogs on their own initiative would get up , manage the situation and then lay down again. 
There is nothing alpha about the training in these campagne and ring tests . Alpha and hemmed in "obedience" will not give you a dog able to make independent , correct , decisions . Flex -- - required in detection work , police work also.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am happy with my dogs taking a high value treat nicely from me. I also train the figure 8 with distractions, which sometimes is food. We do train with marshmellows and other treats laying on the ground. We say, Leave It and move on by. No problems. 

We never give these treats. We give a treat from our pocket. 

But throwing food at a dog while the owner is out of site. Or putting food on a dog, and making it wait to eat it -- those are tricks I just see no point to whatsoever. Telling a dog to Leave It when you are walking can be a life skill. And no, it isn't hard to do. You do not have to be all alpha to do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> oh dear - Campagne and Night Trials (which are not phony title schutzhund trials ) imitate the conditions in which a dog would have to work , practical and functional , real life . The HGH type dog was not a border collie dog but a living fence going from meadow to meadow, town to town , to the hills in the annual transhumance .
> The dog may be parked out in front of the gasthaus , or pub where the shepherd was taking his meal . A dog must not take bribes , refuse food for safety . A great deal of some very special qualities have been lost . Saw a video of a 20 minute interview , in German, young lady student interviewing shepherd with large flock doing land management . He had two dogs , which would lay behind him , keeping an eye on these 200 hundred or so sheep which were starting to creep in ones or twos closer to the roadway . The dogs on their own initiative would get up , manage the situation and then lay down again.
> There is nothing alpha about the training in these campagne and ring tests . Alpha and hemmed in "obedience" will not give you a dog able to make independent , correct , decisions . Flex -- - required in detection work , police work also.


The dog would start as a pup, and work with the owner/shepherd and older dog for 12 hours or more per day. These dogs aren't stupid. If we are out there with a pup and a seasoned dog, 12 hours a day, and sheep, the dogs would learn everything we want them to do, without command. 

It is impressive. I have seen the dogs herding the sheep along a highway, and keeping them out of the crops and out of the road. Great stuff. Stuff they do every day. Normal for them. 

If I was worried about people throwing poisoned food at my dog, I might worry about training them against taking it. The application isn't there. In this country, you do not leave your dog outside the pub while you have dinner.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my last post wasn't completely cooked -- a shepherd dog used in the way of the HGH dog may need to be left with the herd with the shepherd absent and work diligently without being bribed or distracted, not tempted to follow some sweet talker , a romping dog , or offers of steak . The shepherd may be in the pub getting a meal -- and the dog parked outside the door.
The dog has to have self discipline , self initiative without being "managed" or micro managed .
That is called dependable . Loyal .


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i was in the bank with my dog. my dog was in a down/stay
at the srvice counter. i was at the window. i heard my dog 
whimper/whine. i turned around and there was a little girl laying 
on top of him.



Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a little unrealistic to train your dog to the point where it has to endure little unpredictable creatures crawling over it during a down? When is that ever going to have a practical application. I understand that you need to proof your dog, but I think that should be to things that the dog might encounter under everyday circumstances, that are out of your control i.e. if it see's another dog from across a field or see's a cat that it wants to chase.
> 
> And if you're managing your dog properly they should never be asked to down in situation such as this. Maybe it's just me but I don't see the need to force my dog to interact with strange children, or even my own (if I have some in the future) whilst downing ESPECIALLY if it's something that is stressing out my dog unnecessarily. Like a certain poster said below, you want your dog to learn to deal with stress but these should be within reason.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> my last post wasn't completely cooked -- a shepherd dog used in the way of the HGH dog may need to be left with the herd with the shepherd absent and work diligently without being bribed or distracted, not tempted to follow some sweet talker , a romping dog , or offers of steak . The shepherd may be in the pub getting a meal -- and the dog parked outside the door.
> The dog has to have self discipline , self initiative without being "managed" or micro managed .
> That is called dependable . Loyal .


One would expect a dog who spends 12+ hours with the flock (and generally the shepherd) 24/7, 365 days per year to have learned a lot of behaviors we can't expect of our dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some things you don't , can't teach .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Control and precision in training whatever the behavior is not about alpha whatever that means or percieved fairness. Its about reliability and correctness. Anything less then that is failure. 
My dog likes to play with the cat..alot, i do not allow this in the house. If she looks at the cat in an intense way she recieves e collar stim on low levels. She looks away licks her lips looks back etc. She no longer chases the cat nor is she afraid of the cat however if he gets close to her she does those behaviors. Internal conflict. I dont care what it looks like as long as she isnt scratching up my hardwood chasing the cat. It has no effect on the rest of the training. 

Teach heeling with a prong or e collar exclusively you get the same look. The dog will still heel and in time those expressions will go away especially if you add rewards later. If the dog is not destined for sport but has a function that requires a reliable heel it doesnt matter.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Internal conflict or classically conditioned stress response to ecollar stim associated with the cat? Know first im just posing the question i dont think your method is inappropriate.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is a video that Martine Loots shared of Kumo (Fun son).

At about the 3 minute mark, you can see him doing food refusal. There is inherent stress in this exercise. He does some lip licking, a yawn, a couple look aways, but is very solid in the behavior. As with the dog in the first video, a down can be a stressful position, especially with action going on. I think this reaction to the position in the fist video, and this video as well, is normal. 

IMO, stress can be exaggerated by using harsh training methods as well, if the dog is expecting a harsh correction for breaking the down. This may be the case in the first video.

If you view the rest of this video, you will see a very confident young dog. Some things cause stress, and that is part of life. IMO, it is how the dog deals with the stress through behavior and resilience.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Internal conflict or classically conditioned stress response to ecollar stim associated with the cat? Know first im just posing the question i dont think your method is inappropriate.


Internal conflict the dog still wants to chase the cat.


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