# Is your dog's obedience collar-dependent?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Regardless of what type of collar you used to *train* your dog - choke, prong, E - can you put your dog on a slip lead and get the same level of obedience from them?

Or better yet - what if your dog has NO collar (or lead) - then what happens?

If you take the (insert type here) collar off your dog and they suddenly have no idea what Heel means – their obedience is collar-dependent.

Mauser is the first puppy I've had that I’m able to really work on obedience without using a leash or collar. In our basic obedience class he does wear them but I can let the leash drag along the ground behind him and the trainer is ok with that. In Schutzhund I don’t use a leash at all (not yet, anyway). At home he trains in the buff – no leash OR collar.

I find it much too easy to rely on the leash/collar as a training aid. I’ve realized that I did this with Kaynya. Instead of teaching her not to jump on people I use the leash to hold her back. Not hard to do when she only weighs about 10 pounds but *NOT* good training on my part. Now I have to completely retrain her.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I kinda trained Grimm with hand signals.. and so he sorta hasta watch me. A Mean-n-Cruel Momma Depth Charge Voice is a good back-correction should "Epp-epp" fail me as a usual correction. I think we have used food lure, toy reward, so often when training for wacky fun in the livingroom, I can manage okay without a lead.. but NOT outdoors in public with distractions. Too risky, Grimm is impulsive and overenthusiastic.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kenya - yes. She has off-lead titles. Usually when we're walking in our neighborhood I let her drag her leash so I can focus on Nikon. She has also been off-lead in the last 3-4 training classes (obedience, rally, skills) we have been doing.

Coke - no, only at home or with little distraction.

Nikon - no, he's just a pup and we're not doing a lot of formal obedience until he matures. He is off lead in our yard (we have no fence) and he recalls, but he doesn't really have a "heel" or anything like that yet, even on a lead.


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## Nikkoli110 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've always relied on leash & collar, but since yesterday's incident, no collars on in the house, and now they both have to be retrained! I've also found it hard to just control them without the collar on. Time for some new training techniques for me I guess.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I never looked at it that way but yes I guess at this time we are collar dependant.My obedience trainers goal and mine is for the heel,sit ,stay and so on the be able to be done off lead.I honestly haven't tried the heel w/o a device because I haven't felt the need.Just because I am curious I will be trying it when she comes in.My goal for Athena is to not have to have her tied,leashed or e collared for her whole life.I want a dog like many people can accomplish that can know her boundries and live with in them but if need be, can be on a leash.I love her too much to not train her.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> Mauser is the first puppy I've had that I’m able to really work on obedience without using a leash or collar. In our basic obedience class he does wear them but I can let the leash drag along the ground behind him and the trainer is ok with that. In Schutzhund I don’t use a leash at all (not yet, anyway). At home he trains in the buff – no leash OR collar.


Can't wait to see if this holds up when he becomes a "teenager"!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lauri, what I meant to say is-- an easily-motivated workingline boy in the house working without a distraction? PERFECT without collar or lead! That same workingline boy being an adolesent out in public? Thank God for the collar and lead. Teenagerhood means high distractability, and "teenaged intensity" with these lines is "through the roof." Even with proofing, these are strong dogs, and going through teenagerhood is a challenge!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:Regardless of what type of collar you used to train your dog - choke, prong, E - can you put your dog on a slip lead and get the same level of obedience from them?


Yes or with no collar at all. Collars are a TRAINING aid, a means to an end, especially for those of us who compete.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> I find it much too easy to rely on the leash/collar as a training aid.


I have come to realize this with my guys too, to an extent. If I am going to a "doggie event" at the local park where I know there will be LOTS of people and dogs, mine will wear a prong collar but not necessarily have the leash connected to it. So we are still semi dependant on it.

What I am "hoping" to accomplish with my next dog is for him/her to be trained primarily leash free. I know I WILL need to teach with a leash but my game plan is to work as much as possible with the leash on the ground instead of in my hand. It will be an undertaking but my goal is to do as much "basic" training as possible without a leash and slowly up the distractions. Essentially I will be challenging myself to become a better doggie communicator/leader/trainer by not being so dependant on the leash.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Brady is trained with hand signals
but around other dogs Need my prong


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> What I am "hoping" to accomplish with my next dog....


Is this going to be sometime SOON?


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I prefer to train with Risa off-leash. We don't have a yard so that's not possible when we're outside. When we took our first training classes, our instructor had us clip the leash to us so that we didn't have our hands on it. So we've almost been working 'off leash' from the beginning.

I actually find that when we're working together and I have to have her on leash, things don't go as smoothly. That da** leash keeps getting in the way!! I will sometimes drop the leash if we're working in a unfenced area to avoid it getting in the way as much. But training in the house and at obedience/agility/freestyle classes, she's off-leash (unless I'm worried about her being reactive in which case I keep the leash on, might stand on it, and watch her like a hawk).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The majority of the obedience training I do is with no leash or collar. With my previous two dogs I first trained them using training collars but then I started using other methods instead. 
My terrier mix used to be very collar-savvy, he was a strong puller-- when I got him he was 4 years old and wearing a harness so he was already very ingrained with pulling. I tried various methods and the obedience classes I took with him they recommended a prong collar for training. I worked on training him not to pull in class but as soon as that prong was not attached he'd drag me around. He didn't need the collar for any obedience commands, just pulling... I tried 'be a tree' and other things like that. Finally I was tired of relying on a collar and not being able to teach him and I just stopped using the collar and used another method where you walk backwards any time they pull. Amazingly that worked and after that I was able to walk him with a buckle collar only. 
My Golden Ginger used a training collar in her first obedience classes but she was very sensitive and quickly outgrew any need for it. She was trained with voice cues, hand signals and body language (and had picked up many words/visual cues on her own) so at times it seemed like she just knew what I wanted. She was trained off leash as well, the only reason I had her wear a leash at all was because we have a leash law and for some reason a number of people were scared when they saw her on walks even though she would be heeling next to me on leash when we saw people.
I have no idea what devices my GSD was trained with but I have not put a training collar on her since I got her. I have however been using a harness to help control her pulling until I can fully train her in that. So yes she will pull on a regular collar (but according to the old owner IS off-leashed trained.)

I once tried the exercise below at a Dog Scout event, and it showed me just how well Ginger would listen off-leash. We did 20 behaviors before she got too close to me and crossed the line. She was not trained for a "go-out" or "send out" yet at the time so she kept getting closer or we probably would have been able to do more... Normally they only go to 10 behaviors but I wanted to see how many she'd do.

Exercise 3: The "Not-so-straight Recall." This demonstrates that the dog is paying attention to the handlers cues, and is not just repeating a memorized (pattern trained) exercise. The handler leaves his dog on a stay and walks away to a point marked off on the floor or ground, 30 to 60 feet away. When the handler gets behind the line, the time begins. The handler must then instruct the dog to perform as many different cued behaviors as he can elicit from the dog before the dog gets past the "front" line. A maximum of 10 behaviors will be counted. Only behaviors which are performed "on cue" will be counted. Repeated behaviors are not counted, but can be used to control the dog, or to get a secondary behavior. For example, the handler gets the dog to perform a drop on recall, then asks the dog to drop so that he can roll over. The drop is not counted twice, but the handler gets credit for the roll over. The handler is only allowed to use a "go out" or "get back" twice, to prevent the dog from crossing the finish line prior to completing 10 cued behaviors. Hand signals and verbal cues are allowed, as are repeated commands.
Scoring:
Scoring is based on number of cued behaviors executed by the dog before the dog gets over the "front" line, and before the 2 minute time limit has elapsed.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> ...










Soon is a relative term.









Lets just say my current "puppy" is nearing 7 years and I will have an ankle biter before his age doubles.









In a perfect world I will have a new addition by years end.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> ...


I'm NOT holding my breath but I will HOPE for that to continue - at least away from the Schutzhund field.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Sudden selective deafness/major distractability. Come? Sit? Heel? Yeah.. right, Ma. Not THIS cool dude. It's like... all that wonderful drive and focus and and and.... just gets scattered at that butterfly flitting over there... that guy getting out of a car across the street.... that intense new scent coming from that fence poston the corner... whoa, there's a bird over there! ...Hey, a DOG the next street over! "Yo, other dog: Who's da man, who's DA MAAAANNNN???" etc.









I just keep practicing as if he weren't being a teenager, upping excersise, and giving a bit more structure.

Please God, let it end... make maturity happen!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've always done most of my training at home either off leash, or sometimes with a light leash attached to the collar, but dragging on the ground, not attached to me in any way. In class, I drop the leash whenever I feel I can and stay close enough that I can step on it if necessary. All the classes I've taken with Cassidy, Dena, and Keefer over the past 8+ years required flat collars and would also allow harnesses, but did not allow chokes or prongs. Verbal corrections were allowed, but no leash corrections. We start taking puppies on weekly off leash walks in regional parks from about 4 months old, so they get used to paying attention and staying close off leash in distracting circumstances. I've never trained to compete in anything, and don't have any plans to, so I don't require a perfect heel position, just that they stay nearby and come back when I call them off leash, and don't pull on leash. I've never used a long line at the park, we just get a safe distance from parking lots or roads, take off the leash, and keep walking. So none of that is really collar dependent.

I've discovered that I don't spend nearly enough time training with leashed walks, and consequently my dogs have always been better off leash than on. I bought a prong collar for the first time for Keefer because he needs a lot more training on leash and he's too big and strong to rely on his flat collar alone. I should have worked on it more before he got big and strong, but I didn't, and that's something I hope to remedy with my new puppy Halo. I do still plan to do most of my training off leash at home, but to balance that with more work on leash skills. 

In one of Keefer's classes we were to practice "wait" with the dog in front of us rather than behind us. I had worked on it at home and on walks where I told him to wait, took several steps forward, and then released him to walk forward with me, and he had been waiting at doors before being released to go through them for a long time, but I hadn't tried it the other way, where the dog gets ahead and waits for me to catch up. (Now we do practice this at the park.) They has us put the dog on a long line to drag on the ground, drop the leash, and start walking around. If the dog got a few steps ahead we gave the wait command, and if they didn't stop we were to step on the leash. Small problem - although Keefer was still pulling ON leash, once I dropped the leash he was walking around right by my side. I had to get one of the trainers to coax him towards them so I could even work on it at all because he wouldn't get far enough away from me to ask for a wait!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I train Balto and Ciana without a leash, so it doesn't matter what the collar is. And I've been using a lot of clicker with Balto and it works great. 

I just found out at the Rally and Obedience Show and Goes this weekend that both perform better in the ring without a leash.

Don't say that Belgians are easier than GSDs because they have drive and smarts. My drivey Malinois is the easiest to train. She learns new commands in about 15 minutes. Balto is laid back and takes a couple of days before he "gets it".


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> In a perfect world I will have a new addition by years end.












Have a breeder picked out already?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BlackPuppyDon't say that Belgians are easier than GSDs because they have drive and smarts. My drivey Malinois is the easiest to train. She learns new commands in about 15 minutes. Balto is laid back and takes a couple of days before he "gets it".


Thats because Balto is a BOY!


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Urro, I am pretty close to 100% sure about. I usually trained without collars when I was getting ready for trials as they just got in the way and he is the most gosh-darn willing dog I have ever worked with. 

Just this past week a rabbit was hiding in the grass and took off when we got near. I let Urro chase about 100' to see if he could catch him (he didn't) then called him. He IMMEDIATELY turned on his heel and ran back to me. Didn't pause for a second. 









Branca has gone kinda deaf







in her old age. She listens when she wants..... But, I do let her get by with stuff that I <u>NEVER would have tolerated</u> even a couple of years ago. But, even now I would feel 99.9% confident that she would drop immediately in an emergency situation.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

It depends on what I'm asking for. Around the house or in the yard I never use a leash when training. When it comes to heeling I'M collar dependent... With the prong on my dogs always obey and without it they press their limits because I've always let them do so in a flat collar but not with a prong. I can take them out when I ride though and they're off leash, and have no problem staying close and listening when I tell them NO they cannot chase that deer/rabbit/whatever.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

When I first started training I was very collar dependent (note I said "I" and not "my dog"). I think that we form the dependence to the collar and the dog just follows along. 

When I moved into more positive training and shortly after that got Trick, I decided I was going to see what I could do with NO leash, NO collar for most of the time. It has been wonderful! I will always train my dogs as off-leash as possible from day one now. I start when they're puppies and do lots of positive reinforcement for recalls, for being in heel position, for doing a fast down, etc. I prefer not to have a leash on.

Outdoors under heavy distraction is a little bit more difficult. Trick has always been wonderful, even around wildlife, but she's getting pretty deaf now and I have to watch her outdoors because she's not as focused on me as she used to be. Khana (chow) is about 90% dependable outdoors, but she'd go after a moose I think. Tazer chases moose and bears off the property and then runs right back to me, absolutely proud of herself .. *L* .. she's a character. I'm amazed at how quickly she recalls off of a chase. But if a person walks by, she still wants to go out and say hello. She's young yet and a bit too social, but that will settle.

I've always encouraged my students, when I taught classes, to do as much off-leash work as possible. In the last class I taught (open/utility obedience) we all worked off-leash. It was really neat to see eight dogs heeling around off-leash, people weaving between each other, etc. 

One of the things I have against corrective collars (like prong collars, although I do have one and do use it occasionally) is that people tend to get so dependent on them that they end up using it the rest of the dog's life. To me, a dog is not really trained if you have to put a corrective collar on it to walk it. As has already been said, training collars are tools and should be used sparingly in order to reach the proper level of training.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangRegardless of what type of collar you used to *train* your dog - choke, prong, E - can you put your dog on a slip lead and get the same level of obedience from them?
> 
> Or better yet - what if your dog has NO collar (or lead) - then what happens?
> 
> ...


All 5 of my dogs are non-dependent on their obedience collar. To test that, I routinely take them to a 4 acre park and put them through their obedience paces and they perform as if they had their e-collars on. They were taught hand signals so I do of course use the voice commands AND the hand signals. There are distractions in this park. Since there is a large lake there, we have ducks and geese. There are also private homes on the other side of the fenced areas so there are dogs running the fence lines. People, kids, bikes and cars are on the other side. A great park to test my fur kids I think


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Both my dogs could wear anything or nothing and still do obedience. I never really thought of using just one collar when doing obedience, never really came across my mind until I read this post. Cody's retired but I went from using a choke chain, over 4 years ago, to a fur savor, to a prong, to a flat collar of many sizes and Cody performed obedience just the same. Same with Isa, I've had her wear flat collars, fur savors, her 2'' collar, to her sparkly diamond collar in the ring and every time she performed. So I can say they aren't "keyed" on any collar, just that they either are wearing something or not.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

this is an awesome post, I am learning because my dogs in the past were always leash dependent and my goal is to have Sonny not dependent on the leash, right now we use the prong only for training and that is what the trainer said use only 1 collar so when we train we put on the prong even at home so he knows it is work but I also want him to know that in any situation with his buckle he has to listen so I work with off leash with the buckle (simple commands right now). Does that sound good?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Is your dog's obedience collar-dependent?


Kinda-sorta?







Indoors I train without a leash and with no collars. Outside for potty breaks, he has to have a leash. At the park, we train leashless and with only his flat collar. At training, we have whatever we need to use, be it prong or Gentle Leader.

Are we dependent on the equipment? Well, it depends on the situation. I'd have to say that in a situation, I do not trust him without a leash. In training, if there are other dogs in the ring, at best we use our long line and he drags that.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangRegardless of what type of collar you used to *train* your dog - choke, prong, E - can you put your dog on a slip lead and get the same level of obedience from them?
> 
> Or better yet - what if your dog has NO collar (or lead) - then what happens?


No difference between collar or leash on or off. That goes for the Ecollar as well. 

If you're using the tools (whatever they may be) for training then there should be no difference when training is done. (Yes, I know training is NEVER really done). If you have some other outcome, I think you're using the tool for management, not training. 

I sued to take my dog to a nearby dog park. I'd take off all equipment, put her in a sit, and walk away to a distance of about 200 yards. This dog was trained that "sit" meant "sit and look at me." I used binoculars to make sure that she was looking at me. 

I'd walk back and forth across the field and her gaze would follow me. Other dogs would come up to her, sniff, offer play bows, etc., but she'd never look at them. After a few moments, they'd start to bark at her. She "looked like a dog" and she "smelled like a dog," but to them she didn't "act like a dog" in response to their invitations to play, so they were wary of her. 

When I gave her a release command she was "a completely normal dog" with all that means. When under command, she was "under command."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Question for the e-collar people: At what point do you take the collars off for good?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomQuestion for the e-collar people: At what point do you take the collars off for good?


The definitive answer is, it depends! Lol. 

One of the advantages of the Ecollar is that it can provide a fail–safe that is not available with any other tool. Any dog, at any time can decide to obey. If you've not had it happen then, just wait! Sometimes it's not a big deal. To the average pet owner if he has to give two or three commands to get the dog to sit it's not a big deal. But if the dog is running towards a busy street, it may be! To a police dog handler who realizes that his dog has focused attention on the wrong person and is moving to bite him, having to give two or three commands IS a big deal. 

I advocate that even though the dog is reliable without the Ecollar on, that people leave it on as a fail–safe for when the dog decides not to obey. 

But to directly answer your question. I'll use this method of ensuring reliability before I take off the Ecollar.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Erika doesn't need a training collar, 

but I better have that kong ball in my pocket


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomQuestion for the e-collar people: At what point do you take the collars off for good?
> ...


I get all that, I just wondered how someone can truly say their dog is not collar dependent if they're always wearing the e-collar. The dog doesn't know if you've got the remote on you and are planning to use it or not, so unless they're not actually wearing the collar and still obey as if they were, then you really don't know if they're collar dependent. But I can certainly see why someone wouldn't want to take the chance and find out, and I wasn't sure if people actually did take it off at some point, or if most leave it on indefinitely, just in case.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I get all that, I just wondered how someone can truly say their dog is not collar dependent if they're always wearing the e-collar.


It looks as if you missed this bit of my last post.


> Quote: But to directly answer your question. I'll use this method of ensuring reliability before I take off the Ecollar.


I then supplied  this link; giving instructions on how to obtain reliability with the Ecollar allowing it to be removed. 

Many people who train with Ecollars compete in venues where the Ecollar can't be worn. These include various forms of OB competition, including the AKC and UKC. Many compete in the biting sports where Ecollars also can't be worn; SchH, Ring Sport, KNPV, IPO and more. Many people who train with Ecollars have to certify their dogs and during those tests the dogs can't wear the Ecollar. These include SAR and police K-9's. 

There's a difference between wearing an Ecollar because the dog is not reliable without it and wearing it as a fail–safe. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomThe dog doesn't know if you've got the remote on you and are planning to use it or not, so unless they're not actually wearing the collar and still obey as if they were, then you really don't know if they're collar dependent.


I've tested this dozens of times. As I said in my first post in this thread,


> Quote: No difference between collar or leash on or off. That goes for the Ecollar as well.





> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom But I can certainly see why someone wouldn't want to take the chance and find out, and I wasn't sure if people actually did take it off at some point, or if most leave it on indefinitely, just in case.


One can make the same comment about the clicker or about those who train with treats. Many of them NEVER leave the house without their tools.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

my dogs obediance is mommy voice dependent


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Many of them NEVER leave the house without their tools.


Aye, but we must not forget that this is still an animal. Even we cannot trust humans 100%, why put 100% trust in a companion dog? If we were off leash ready, I'd probably still leave the house with a tug toy and e-collar remote in my pocket. And if a dog will always respond to a pocketful of bacon, then have that pocketful of bacon! It surely depends on the dog but why take the chance? I see nothing wrong with keeping the tools on hand, especially if you know your dog. I would never trust Renji completely off leash in a non fenced area because of what he is. Even if he were very well obedience trained in all sorts of distraction, I know how easily his brain can "tunnel vision" and lock onto something so I'd never take that risk. 



> Quote:There's a difference between wearing an Ecollar because the dog is not reliable without it and wearing it as a failsafe.


I train for reliability but I always want a fail-safe on hand. Life happens, and I'd rather keep it happening than have it end. Like you, Lou, I just don't see a point to ever going e-collar free except when required such as for trials. Of course, if it's always on, it's much easier to fall into the trap of using it for every little thing rather than keeping it as a failsafe.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

most people drive off with a spare tire, a can of "fix a flat" and a cell phone


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I get all that, I just wondered how someone can truly say their dog is not collar dependent if they're always wearing the e-collar.
> ...


No, I didn't miss that part of your post. I was responding to this part:



> Originally Posted By: LouCastleI advocate that even though the dog is reliable without the Ecollar on, that people leave it on as a fail–safe for when the dog decides not to obey.


I honestly didn't know if most people leave the collar on all the time, or eventually weaned them off. The question was for e-collar people in general. It's not always about you!














So _you_ DO wean your dogs off the collar, in which case you can say their training is not collar dependent because they're not wearing them anymore. But if other e-collar people DON'T wean their dogs off the collar, than _they_ really don't know how their dog would obey when they're not wearing it.









And you're right, some people do continue to rely on other training tools forever, but many don't. I don't use treats at the off leash parks we go to every weekend, and haven't for years. When we start taking our new puppy in a couple of months, I'll be using them again, and I'll have my clicker. We do have toys, but that's the only reason we're there, to play with our dogs, so not having a ball or frisbee type toy to throw would defeat the purpose of going there in the first place. 

I also understand the difference between wearing an e-collar (or using any other training tool for that matter) as a fail safe measure rather than because the dog isn't reliable without it, but unless you're not using it at ALL anymore, (the royal "you", not you specifically) then it's just an educated guess as to whether or not they're truly reliable without it - you really can't know for sure. That's what I was getting at. The dog still knows that he's wearing the collar and that you can control him if you choose to do so, even if YOU know that you don't intend to. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, it's smart to be proactive to keep your pet safe, and if your lifestyle might put your dog at risk of injury or death if they don't obey, then by all means, keep it on.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:There's a difference between wearing an Ecollar because the dog is not reliable without it and wearing it as a failsafe.
> ...


I want to reiterate that I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with this, just that you can't say with any certainty that you don't need it if the dog is always wearing it when s/he isn't under your immediate control, such as on a leash or a long line. 

That's the question the OP asked - not whether or not there's anything wrong with using training tools, but whether or not your dog/s (or you) are dependent on them. And she stated her goal of not using a collar or leash during training as much as possible to insure that her puppy does not become dependent on any particular equipment for reliability.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

No...I'm very fortunate with all 3.
I use a pinch while walking, or training for the big dogs, but can't remember the last time I actually needed it. 

If you accompany the "Acch!" or "No" with a correction after it's fair because command is really known and it's actually disobedience or lack of attention being corrected, the sound becomes a remote correction, and becomes as effective as a physical one. 

Never have invested in an e-collar. Even in the woods off lead, with these 3, I've never needed it. I have owned a dog who I wished I had one to correct for chasing deer, but that was a long time ago, and just that one dog. Back then the e-collars were very expensive and did not have the multiple strength settings today's do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Because a picture is worth a thousand words, Keefer retrieving by a herd of cows at a little over a year old:










And at 6-1/2 months old, showing great focus around a pretty big distraction!










This was only the second time he'd seen cows in his life, and no treats - not only did *I* not have any, he's looking at my husband (and not at the ball!) who's NEVER had treats on him because he doesn't do the training.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomQuestion for the e-collar people: At what point do you take the collars off for good?


I really do not think there is an "off for good." Practice makes perfect. I practice. Every day. Some days with their e-collars on them and some days with the e-collars on the shelf. I want to try to find each of my dog's weak areas in training and perfect that weak point. My "e-collar off" training and testing I do in areas that I am certain that no harm (other than a verbal scolding) will come to my dogs "IF" they decide not to obey the command. To date, they are yet to miss a beat....meaning I have not had to scold them because they do as I ask at the moment I ask. Does that mean it will never happen? Who knows, they are dogs after all.

My dogs lives are precious to me. If they are going ANYWHERE that holds even the SLIGHTEST hint that danger may lirk....e-collars are on. I would certainly rather be refered to as the person with the collar-dependent dog than the dummy that chanced it and lost.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: TracieMy dogs lives are precious to me. If they are going ANYWHERE that holds even the SLIGHTEST hint that danger may lirk....e-collars are on. I would certainly rather be refered to as the person with the collar-dependent dog than the dummy that chanced it and lost.


Thanks Tracie.







That was kind of my impression of how it works for most e-collar trainers, but I have no experience in that area, and I didn't want to assume without asking the question. To *me*, that would mean that they are, (or at least could be), collar-dependant. Occasionally testing them without the collar isn't the same as totally weaning them off it with no degradation of their level of obedience over time, but that is just MY opinion, and as I said, I have no problem with that at all. Your dogs' safety is the most important thing. It would be wonderful if nobody ever had to use any kind of training equipment and we all had perfectly obedient dogs anyway, but we live in the real world and things happen.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Do you ever say goodbye to your leash? 

That's how I use my e-collar. It's my measure of control when I don't have a leash on my dog. I rarely use it, because his obedience is good, but should he choose to disobey (I have a not quite 2 year old intact male...I recognize that this is a possibility) I want to be able to correct him.

When I train I may have up to 3 collars on (flat, prong, ecollar) and the leash dragging on the ground. I'm not using them but it's there. Alot of times I don't even have the ecollar remote with me...but the collar is on the dog. Sometimes I train with a naked dog, but I have my ball/reward out and visible. I guess to me I never want my dog out unless I can have something to ensure control- even if that's just a flat collar and leash. I like to set myself up for success and to me this way he never learns he can disobey. To expect obedience frequently without any kind of control, reward, or correction, is asking for a dog that will at some point know he doesn't have to listen. I think that should my dog get loose and out of my control I would have a good chance of him obeying because we've built good habits and he's never had the chance to disobey.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Because a picture is worth a thousand words, Keefer retrieving by a herd of cows at a little over a year old:


By contrast, Renji would try to pick a fight with every single one.







Keefer is so awesome!



> Quote: I guess to me I never want my dog out unless I can have something to ensure control- even if that's just a flat collar and leash. I like to set myself up for success and to me this way he never learns he can disobey.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomNo, I didn't miss that part of your post. I was responding to this part


CM then quotes me


> Quote: I advocate that even though the dog is reliable without the Ecollar on, that people leave it on as a fail–safe for when the dog decides not to obey.





> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I honestly didn't know if most people leave the collar on all the time, or eventually weaned them off.


I don't know either and I don't know if there's any way to find out. Some of my clients do and some don't. Some certify or compete and obviously, the dogs don't wear them then. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom The question was for e-collar people in general. It's not always about you!


I was talking about my experience and that's always about me. lol



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom So _you_ DO wean your dogs off the collar, in which case you can say their training is not collar dependent because they're not wearing them anymore. But if other e-collar people DON'T wean their dogs off the collar, than _they_ really don't know how their dog would obey when they're not wearing it.


Yes, and? Not sure what your point is. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomAnd you're right, some people do continue to rely on other training tools forever, but many don't. I don't use treats at the off leash parks we go to every weekend, and haven't for years.


As someone recently said, "It's not always about you!" lol



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I also understand the difference between wearing an e-collar (or using any other training tool for that matter) as a fail safe measure rather than because the dog isn't reliable without it, but unless you're not using it at ALL anymore, (the royal "you", not you specifically) then it's just an educated guess as to whether or not they're truly reliable without it - you really can't know for sure. That's what I was getting at.


Yes, and. I still don't see a point here.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI want to reiterate that I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with this, just that you can't say with any certainty that you don't need it if the dog is always wearing it when s/he isn't under your immediate control, such as on a leash or a long line.


Speaking for myself and most of my clients … At some point we test the quality of our training by taking the dog out "naked." None of my clients have been dissatisfied with the quality of the performance that I know of. And I'm pretty sure that I'd hear about it. I offer a money back guarantee if people aren't satisfied and I'm quite expensive. They stand to get back quite a lot of money if they tell me that they're not satisfied. No one ever has. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom That's the question the OP asked - not whether or not there's anything wrong with using training tools, but whether or not your dog/s (or you) are dependent on them. And she stated her goal of not using a collar or leash during training as much as possible to insure that her puppy does not become dependent on any particular equipment for reliability.


Actually the OP asked two questions. The first asked about how obedient the dogs were when on a "slip lead" and the second was about "no collar (or lead …).


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomBecause a picture is worth a thousand words, Keefer retrieving by a herd of cows at a little over a year old:


What those "thousand words" actually are will vary quite a bit. In this case they don't say much that's pertinent to this discussion. Still photos especially, in this situation, don't say much. I don't know whether your dog has ever been interested in chasing cows at all, we certainly can't tell from a couple of still photos.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier Tracie wrote,


> Quote:My dogs lives are precious to me. If they are going ANYWHERE that holds even the SLIGHTEST hint that danger may lirk....e-collars are on. I would certainly rather be refered to as the person with the collar-dependent dog than the dummy that chanced it and lost.





> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom Thanks Tracie. To *me*, that would mean that they are, (or at least could be), collar-dependant.


In reality it mean ONLY that they "could be" collar dependent. To assume that they are is "assuming facts not in evidence." 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom Occasionally testing them without the collar isn't the same as totally weaning them off it with no degradation of their level of obedience over time, but that is just MY opinion


Mine is different. I think that's EXACTLY what it is. Going by your opinion though, how long would they have to leave it off before you'd consider that it was the same? A day, a week, a year? 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom we live in the real world and things happen.


I agree. That's why many people keep their Ecollars on all the time, needed or not. 

The question is an interesting one. Anti–Ecollar people (not saying that anyone in this conversation is anti) will use this to try an convince their followers that dogs trained with Ecollars _must _wear them at all times in order to ensure reliability. Some do and some don't. Looking at this from the dog's view of things. Even though he's wearing an Ecollar, when he's released from the leash he's free to run at will and free to make his own decisions about where he goes, same as if he was not wearing the collar.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, let's rephrase the question.

You are walking down the street with your dog on leash - wearing whatever collar you usually have on them. The dog is out in front of you enjoying the sights and sounds around them.

Suddenly the collar breaks and falls off the dog.

Now, be honest here. Which is your reaction:

1. Heart leaps into your mouth and you think "Oh, *&$#!" and lunge to grab the dog bodily so you can wrap the leash around them somehow.

2. You calmly call the dog back to you and use the leash as a temporary slip lead and head home.

3. You say "Oh well" and keep going - knowing your dog will still listen to your verbal commands and that you can always just wrap the leash around them if someone says anything.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

#2 or #3 with Rafi, depending on where we are, and #3 with Chama before she lost her hearing.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I had a similar situation happen to Risa and I the other day. I thought I had her leash in my hand until I saw it dragging across the ground. I stopped and said "Hey!" Risa turned around and looked at me and I bent over and encouraged her to come back to me so I could grab her leash again. I took it in my hand and we finished our walk.









If the collar/leash broke, I would probably do #2. Ris' recall is bad so #3 is out of the question.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang Ok, let's rephrase the question.
> 
> You are walking down the street with your dog on leash - wearing whatever collar you usually have on them. The dog is out in front of you enjoying the sights and sounds around them.
> 
> ...


Kenya - 3. She wears a leash on walks b/c I live in the city and we have a leash law. But having 3 dogs and 2 hands, often I drop her leash and have her drag it (or if it's a 6', I can throw it over my shoulder or around the back of my neck still attached to her and she is fine). The law just says the dog has to be leashed, not that I have to hold it, hehe! Kenya I would be confident walking onto a sidewalk in Times Square and removing her leash. I can also call her off prey, in fact I send her on prey b/c I hate vermin pooping and killing each other in my yard so I have her "flush" them out and call her back. I hear so many people say "my dog's recall is solid" or "my dog is fine off leash", but they live in the country and walk their dogs in the woods or pretty deserted country roads. To me a dog is solid off leash when it can be moved through a crowd with other noise, sight, and smell distractions.

Nikon - 2. I have not yet relied on a leash in our yard (large, unfenced, has some field and woodsy areas, lots of prey animals) and I take him places where I can have him off lead, but since he is so young, there are still distractions that are new to us and I don't know yet how he will react. His recall at home is solid, but again, we're still encountering things that are new to him.

Coke - 1!!!!!! LOL I HAVE had to lunge at him and fling my body on him!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Where I live #3, but in town #2.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

With Renji.... a mix of 1 and 2. My heart would stop, then I'd call him back to me while running backwards, then I'd slip-lead him. If this would happen while Renji was staring down a dog that was challenging him, I would tackle him.









ETA: My trainer says I have a lot more control over Renji than I think. I hope she's right. One time his collar DID fall off (put it on improperly, now I triple-check), and I immediately called him back while moving backwards, thankfully it worked without any hesitation on his part.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang Ok, let's rephrase the question.
> ...


if we were walking down a street, #2. if we were in the woods or a park, #3- although he probably would already have his leash off

liesje- so funny that you say that about flushing out the vermin. i do the same thing with mikko! my neighbor's cats are constantly pooping in my yard so i'll let him outside to chase them away. like kenya, mikko can also be called off prey- i just need a strong command- like "HEY!" and he screeches to a halt and runs right back to me. we never used a collar for training, he has always had either a flat buckle or rolled leather collar used for the sole purpose of attaching a leash to and holding his tags. we spent lots and lots of time as a puppy teaching recall in all sorts of situations, voluntary attention rewards (which is something really small and easy to do- and has a huge payoff in the long run), and we take him to parks where squirrels run rampant. he loves to chase them and then run right back to me. every once and a while, i call him off one to test him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang Ok, let's rephrase the question.
> 
> You are walking down the street with your dog on leash - wearing whatever collar you usually have on them. The dog is out in front of you enjoying the sights and sounds around them.
> 
> ...


Excellent rephrase! I'm with #3. I know that #2 is the correct answer as far as leash laws go but I must admit that I'm an outlaw (shhh, don't tell anyone) when it comes to those. I sometimes go to busy downtown areas to work my dogs off leash. A couple of times officers have called me on this violation. I give my dogs a down command and go talk to them. Each time it's happened, they've seen how under–control the dogs are and drive off. I know that sooner or later someone will write me up and I'll have to pay the price. I'm obeying the spirit of the law, keeping my dogs under control, but not the letter of the law, keeping a leash on them.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

With both of my dogs Id say a modified #2. Id calmly call the dog back and make a slip lead or whatever needed and continue rather than head home. I wouldn't do #3 in busy areas such as suburban neighbourhood or out at the petstore, but for walking in the woods etc I am normally already offleash.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Nikkoli110I've always relied on leash & collar, but since yesterday's incident, no collars on in the house, and now they both have to be retrained!


What happened?


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang Ok, let's rephrase the question.
> 
> You are walking down the street with your dog on leash - wearing whatever collar you usually have on them. The dog is out in front of you enjoying the sights and sounds around them.
> 
> ...


With Sierra and Blue with out a doubt #3. I know they will both listen no matter what.

With Stryker and Zeus, #2. Stryker would never be out where there were a bunch of people because of severe fear aggression, but if he was he would need to be leashed for his safety. Zeus because I have not had alot of time to work with him.


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## Mark B (Feb 3, 2009)

After my dogs are trained they are not collar dependant


Mark
http://www.ultimatekanine.com


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

So what kind of street are we talking? A comfortable residential area with a medium amount of traffic at 25 mph, or a four lane highway with lots of traffic (like what's out front of my building)? That could make a difference. Slower traffic and minimal traffic means it's easier to trust that your dog won't get hit IF they go out into the roadway.

For Trick, it's #3 (at least always had been, now she's a bit deaf so I'm more cautious with her) regardless of the road near us. She goes out front with me in the summer while I water the 27 pots of flowers and is never on leash. I've even walked her in downtown Anchorage off-leash, with the crazy traffic there. She's just been that dependable (and she's nearly 13 now).

Khana and Dora, #2 or #3 - I can walk them on heel command without a leash, but it's more comfortable to have them on leash. Chows can be a bit unpredictable at times. Mine are well-trained, but I'm aware of their natural tendencies to be independent (chows are NOT like GSDs .. *L*).

Tazer, #2 on the busy street, #3 on the quiet street. I expect she will be at #3 soon for all places, but she's young and learning yet. She's a bit wilder than Trick and my training is slower, so she's not yet as dependable as I would want.

I've done a lot of training in busy parking lots with my dogs over the years. I go to the busiest places and I work on attention, then add in heeling, sits, downs, etc. When the dogs are at the point of really good attention, we work on the sidewalks directly outside of the doors to the store. And if there's a dog barking in a vehicle, we'll work near that vehicle for more added distraction. And all of this is done on a flat collar or no collar. I prefer off-leash, and that's how I work Trick, Khana and Dora. I have them jump out of the vehicle and give them a heel command to take them across the busiest areas so that we can reach the sidewalk. I have NEVER had a dog take off doing this.

In my area we have a leash law, but it also says "or under the verbal control of the handler" (something like that, anyway) so no one has ever questioned me having my dogs off-leash in public. The only time I had someone comment negatively is back when Kylee was young (so probably 15 years ago) and I had a prong collar on her. THAT made someone speak up. But when I'm working my dogs in a flat collar and off-leash much of the time, all I've gotten is great comments about how wonderful it is that my dogs behave so well.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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