# Crating and establishing "alpha"



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Will crating help to establish WE are the alpha?

Duke has been in our home for 11 weeks, and since day one he has not had to be crated at night or while we are gone at work. He can be trusted loose in the house. BUT we are having issues with him trying to be the alpha...at least that's what we think is going on. For example, growling if we try to take a toy from him, barking or snipping at us when we correct him & use our body to block him from going somewhere he's not supposed to go. We will be consulting with a trainer on this, but for now I am wondering if we should start crating him at night and/or while we are at work? Will this help to establish that this is OUR house and HE lives in it instead of this is HIS house and WE live in it? I'm thinking it might have been a mistake to give him free roam of the house from day one. 

Will crating help with this?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The best way to "establish dominance" is by being your dogs leader. This can really only be done through training. You set your dogs boundaries and limitations. You decide what goes, but this can only be done through consistent training.

The whole alpha thing is a little overrated if you ask me. Be a consistent leader and your dog will respect as his alpha without having to actually do specific things to force it on him.

As for crating, I don't think it's going to make him think your an alpha, but it's a great tool to keep him and your home safe while you're not there to supervise. Always make it a positive thing. Never punish him by putting him in there when he's done something bad. Throw in a treat everytime he goes it. You want to make it a place that he wants to be in instead of a place that he has to be in. Make it his own special place.

Also, look into NILIF training if you haven't already. It's a good way of training that I still practice to this day.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you need to train and socialize your dog.
you had the dog for 11 weeks. did you go to
puppy class? find a trainer and start working with your dog.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

I realize I need to train and socialize Duke. Hence my statement in my post "We will be consulting with a trainer on this." I'm just asking if we should stop giving him free roam of the house and crate him more often so as to help establish more of a pack structure.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Is he causing trouble in the house when you're not there to supervise?

A crate isn't going to do much else besides keep him and your home safe while you're not around. It really has nothing to do with "pack structure".


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

training and socializing establishes pack structure. when you say
you're going to consult with a trainer does that mean you're going
to enroll in a class or take private lessons?


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## Buckhunter (Nov 8, 2008)

yes you should stop giving him free roam of the house ........... there needs to be rules and boundaries .......... and they soon learn to like their crate ,my dogs will go in on their own when the door is left open


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

No, Duke does not cause problems in the house when we're not here to supervise. As I stated in my original post, he can be trusted loose in the house. I'm just wondering if giving him free roam of the house from day one was a mistake and possibly left him thinking this is as much his house as it is ours.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> training and socializing establishes pack structure. when you say
> you're going to consult with a trainer does that mean you're going
> to enroll in a class or take private lessons?


We want to bring a trainer or behaviorist into our home first. Then look into obedience classes.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Buckhunter said:


> yes you should stop giving him free roam of the house ........... there needs to be rules and boundaries .......... and they soon learn to like their crate ,my dogs will go in on their own when the door is left open



I'm very pro-crate, but rules and boundaries can still be set while giving free roam of the home. It really depends on the individual dog. If this particular dog isn't getting into any trouble while unsupervised, a crate isn't absolutely needed.

There are many other and better things to do to establish that "alpha role". As Doggiedad and I have mentioned, this can only be done through consistent training.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my dog had free roam of the house from day one. we watched
him closely. my dog was crated at night and when we weren't home.
i did crate him for short periods during the day so he would
get use to his crate. after a while he would go to his
whenever he wanted too. i also taught my dog "go to your crate".



Buckhunter said:


> yes you should stop giving him free roam of the house ........... there needs to be rules and boundaries .......... and they soon learn to like their crate ,my dogs will go in on their own when the door is left open


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I've never thought of crate training my dog in a alpha or pack leader context. I'm not even sure if that's applicable. I'm a fervent believer in crate training in case of an emergency (think Katrina) your dog will be in a crate as the shelters will be overwhelmed. In a very stressful situation the crate can be a source of comfort and relief to a dog.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm also very pro crate and have been crating my dog since day one. He loves it and goes in it willingly at night to sleep (that's where his bed is). I feed him in the crate and taught him the word "crate". With that said, a crate is _not_ the best way to establish leadership and pack structure. Training and NILIF is the way to go. Start looking at NILIF and be consistent with it and that alone will move you up the pack structure. Combine it with training and you'll be "it" for the dog (the center of all good things)... Good luck!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I would wait to do anything until you've talked with the trainer. I also don't think crating him will make much difference. 

Also, on behalf of the rescue, I'm sorry that the match between your family and Duke has not gone as planned.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

We do practice NILIF with Duke -- we make him sit and wait before going in/out doors, we make him sit and wait to be fed, we make him sit/down/shake/watch before being treated, and if he tries to demand attention we make him sit to be petted. We do often give him "free" attention when he's just laying around. By that I mean, if he's laying around and one of us wants to go pet him, we don't make him do anything to earn it. We only make him "earn" pettings or attention if he's demanding it (which is rare). I don't know if that goes against NILIF...?

Duke is fine in his crate (doesn't whine or protest), but he doesn't ever go in unless he's told to do so. If we point to his crate and say, "Go to your crate" he will go in. He has a comfy bed in there, but he naps either on the floor or one the one end of the loveseat we allow him to be on. I'm starting to wish we had never decided to allow that. He would get on the furniture when we were gone, so we decided to give him one end of the loveseat. I'm thinking about taking that away. I'll put boxes or something on the sofa & loveseat if I have to to keep him off while we're gone. (Or try those mat things, but some people here said they don't work well.)


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I think you might be better off addressing each behavioral issue you have with your dog individually, rather than taking away unrelated privileges in the hopes that it will solve every other issue. There are things you can do to eliminate the resource guarding (just do a search and you'll find several threads). As far as keeping him out of areas you don't want him to be, work on down stays for increasing periods of time. That way if he wants to follow you into a room you don't want him to be in, you can put him in a down stay until you are done in there (or just block off that room).


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

I definitely do not think any one thing (i.e. taking away couch priviledges) will solve every other issue. I was just wondering if crating more often is ONE of the things we should be doing to help enforce more boundaries and help establish pack structure. 

We have played the "trading up" game to help with resource guarding, and we also hand feed him to help with guarding his food. We hand feed one meal a day (dinner) and for breakfast he must sit and wait to be given permission to eat. We've been doing this for like 9-10 weeks. At breakfast after I walk away and return a few moments later he still growls when I pet him or reach toward the bowl. He does let me take it from him, but the growling is unacceptable. "Trading up" works, but only one time per play session because once you give him a treat he could care less about the toy and just sniffs around for more treats. We don't play this game often anyway because he doesn't even seem to care about toys.

I think the problem is lack of pack structure. He does not see us (especially me) as alpha and has assumed the role himself. I'm reading some good articles on Leerburg (posted here on this forum) about establishing pack structure, and a member here recommended a book to read as well. We are trying to find a trainer in the area who can help us with this.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

HobNob said:


> At breakfast after I walk away and return a few moments later he still growls when I pet him or reach toward the bowl. He does let me take it from him, but the growling is unacceptable.


For this, if you are going to walk away and approach again, I would only approach to throw a _high_ value treat into the bowl (chicken, cheese, etc) and would skip the petting for a while. Constantly "testing" his guarding does nothing but keep him on edge. I'm a firm believer of leaving dogs be while they eat. Because I don't make a habit of getting in my dogs' (including fosters) space while they are eating, it's no big deal if I do it and can take high value (raw bones) things away no problem. 

Personally, I think crating him and taking away his freedom may help the issues some but of course just doing that isn't going to correct them. It reclaims the house as yours and you let him be there. I'm not big on the "alpha" stuff but do think you need to set rules and boundaries. Dogs earn freedoms and to me, that doesn't just mean he won't chew things but that he respects me as well before being allowed freedoms such as being loose in the house.

How often do you train Duke? I also think that getting on a daily rountine of practicing obedience with Duke will help your relationship. If some of his issues are from lack of confidence or seeing you as his leader, training will help to teach him to look to your for guidance as well as buidling his confidence at the same time when you praise him for doing a good job.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Wow, can I be frank - ok if I can't be frank I'll be honest. You really need to do some homework - this is not rocket science. Most of what you have already heard regarding your question(s) is right on. I have to ask why would you bring a behaviorist in to your house for an 11 week old puppy?! Get him into a group class. He needs to be socialized with other dogs and other people. I might be alone here and sorry if I seem way off base but I have an uneasy feeling about the future of this puppy - he is a baby not a robot. My advice is to take a couple of steps back and find a reputable trainer in your area and enroll him in a class.
Good Luck​


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

EJQ said:


> I have to ask why would you bring a behaviorist in to your house for an 11 week old puppy?!


This isn't an 11 week old puppy that we are talking about here, it is an adult rescue that they have owned for 11 weeks. Check their posting history and you will see that they are having guarding issues with the dog.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Buckhunter said:


> yes you should stop giving him free roam of the house ........... there needs to be rules and boundaries .......... and they soon learn to like their crate ,my dogs will go in on their own when the door is left open


That's what I was told by my trainer when Sasha got her (10 mon old). 

Though it didn't teach her to respect me, she did learn I was boss and the disciplinarian. You will need to work on the positive behavior/obedience training along with crating to make any progress.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

EJQ said:


> Wow, can I be frank - ok if I can't be frank I'll be honest. You really need to do some homework - this is not rocket science. Most of what you have already heard regarding your question(s) is right on. I have to ask why would you bring a behaviorist in to your house for an 11 week old puppy?! Get him into a group class. He needs to be socialized with other dogs and other people. I might be alone here and sorry if I seem way off base but I have an uneasy feeling about the future of this puppy - he is a baby not a robot. My advice is to take a couple of steps back and find a reputable trainer in your area and enroll him in a class.
> Good Luck​


Duke is 5 years old. He has been IN OUR HOME for 11 weeks. Thanks for the encouragement.



gsdraven said:


> For this, if you are going to walk away and approach again, I would only approach to throw a _high_ value treat into the bowl (chicken, cheese, etc) and would skip the petting for a while.


I will fur sure start doing this. We were going this for a little while, but stopped since he wasn't growling. Sometimes I forget we need to occasionally go back and do things just as reinforcement. Thanks for the reminder. 




gsdraven said:


> Personally, I think crating him and taking away his freedom may help the issues some but of course just doing that isn't going to correct them. It reclaims the house as yours and you let him be there.


This is exactly what I was asking...simply if it would help. I know for sure it will not correct all of the issues. But since we won't have a behaviorist or trainer in the house today, or tomorrow, I was just looking to see if this is something we could/should do to start helping with the issues.



gsdraven said:


> How often do you train Duke? I also think that getting on a daily rountine of practicing obedience with Duke will help your relationship. If some of his issues are from lack of confidence or seeing you as his leader, training will help to teach him to look to your for guidance as well as buidling his confidence at the same time when you praise him for doing a good job.


Duke knows several commands and I make sure to do a practice session with him everyday when I come home from work...about 5-10 minutes. And usually one or two more times in the evenings either I or my husband will do quick little "command and treat" sessions with him. I'm sure we could be doing more though. Where we have faltered is not getting him into an obedience class. I am hesitant to use the PetSmart obedience classes. So it's just a matter of looking into other options in our area. Once we started seeing his is uncomfortable with strangers approaching him we thought it would be better to work with a private trainer first before obedience classes. I talked with a trainer last week and was considering using him, but I changed my mind after our conversation because he has no formal training or certifications and said he uses "old school" methods and used the word dominance a lot. He also said he does use the "alpha roll" but not on all dogs. I just wasn't comfortable with what I heard so we are looking elsewhere.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

HobNob said:


> Duke knows several commands and I make sure to do a practice session with him everyday when I come home from work...about 5-10 minutes. And usually one or two more times in the evenings either I or my husband will do quick little "command and treat" sessions with him.


IMO - Try to make sure that all of your practice sessions aren't geared towards establishing your dominance. Don't make every encounter with your husband and you (and your dog) a dominance match. 

Try using games to work your dog. Make him think you are fun - even if you are playing fetch, it's your ball, you throw it, he brings it back (OH! GOOD BOY! HERE! SIT! take the ball) he returns your ball. And he wants to play again! If he doesn't play fetch, try something else. Use your imagination, make it fun. But during the games use different commands. If he doesn't comply, game over. Don't punish him, his punishment is game over. But use patience, he needs a lot of coaxing. 

If you allow him on your furniture - teach him a command like "load". Let him get up, then get him down with another command like "out". Let him know you allow him on the furniture when you ask him up, but not when he wants to. Make it a game while you teach him, just like you would if he was a puppy. If he gets on the bed and you haven't invited him, tell him "out". Wait a bit and then ask him to 'load'. When he jumps up, "Good boy!". 

Everything is NILF, but that doesn't mean you have to carry treats in your pocket if your dog responds to "GOOD BOY!" The idea is to get him to look to you for guidence and approval in what he does. Try to bring him into your world, don't just try to dominate his. 

Your best bet is to get into training. It helps build confidence in your dog and you. It isn't always easy to find a good trainer, but they are out there. 

Good luck!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Since Duke is 5 years old and you don't know what has happened to him to make him this way, I would think working with a behaviorist on his issues is safest. Keep reading & learning. Don't push him. Sounds like he's a good dog but he has his quirks. I think he still needs to learn you can be trusted. Give it time, sounds like your heading in the right direction. Good luck.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Excellent post, Lillie. :thumbup:


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## Buckhunter (Nov 8, 2008)

I should have also added that you should not use the crate as punishment for bad behavior . The crate is the "den" , the dogs safe place , a place they can go for a little "privacy" .......... yes they do want to be alone at times


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't think crate training is going to solve the definition of Alpha between you guys. If you watched and read what leerburg said, he had you be fair firm and consistent. I think the whole trade up idea you are doing with Duke is what might be causing the problems. Along with he got away with getting a piece of furniture to stay on when he should not have. Also working your dog should be more than just obedience a few times. Engage him and work his mind whether through fetch or other games and also walk him on a leash and use that to establish that you are the leader.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> I should have also added that you should not use the crate as punishment for bad behavior . The crate is the "den" , the dogs safe place , a place they can go for a little "privacy" .......... yes they do want to be alone at times


Absolutely!


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I don't think crate training is going to solve the definition of Alpha between you guys. If you watched and read what leerburg said, he had you be fair firm and consistent. I think the whole trade up idea you are doing with Duke is what might be causing the problems. Along with he got away with getting a piece of furniture to stay on when he should not have. Also working your dog should be more than just obedience a few times. Engage him and work his mind whether through fetch or other games and also walk him on a leash and use that to establish that you are the leader.


Once again...I was not asking if crating Duke more often would "solve" the alpha problem. Nor do I think it would. I was asking if is ONE of the things we could do to help establish more boundaries and make our alpha role more clear to him. 

I have mixed feelings about trading up. I received the advice to "trade" with him from multiple people here on this board (you can find the thread on the aggression forum) to work on Duke's resource guarding. However, now I don't really know how I feel about it so I don't do it anymore for the time being. 

We do walk Duke on a leash and have since his first day in our home. He gets walked on his leash every day. Sometimes my husband and I alternate days. Other times we both go and each take the leash for half of the walk. We use a prong collar.

We often try to get him to play games with his toys...he shows no interest. SOMETIMES he will play for a few minutes in the house, but if it's in the backyard, forget it. He could care less about playing with us in the yard.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> A crate isn't going to do much else besides keep him and your home safe while you're not around. It really has nothing to do with "pack structure".


Articles on Leerburg suggest the complete opposite of this. ?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

We often try to get him to play games with his toys...he shows no interest. SOMETIMES he will play for a few minutes in the house, but if it's in the backyard, forget it. He could care less about playing with us in the yard.

Not all dogs like toys. He could be content with just "hanging out" laying around watching the world go by. My 8yr old male is toy obsessed he acts like he's 8 months old. My 6yr old female ocassionaly will toss a stuffy toy around but would much rather chew a bone or the only ball she will play with is a tennis ball.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Crating him more often will not establish that you are alpha to him. To lead you have to be a leader which means be fair firm and consistent. You did not show consistency on the furniture thing so he now is testing the boundarys elsewhere. If you have a boundary and a discipline with him. When he crosses the boundary he needs to have that discipline for breaking the rule. If your dog does not stay engaged with you in the backyard then you are the problem. You need to make yourself and the toy you have in your hand more interesting to play with than other things. 

When on the walk what do you do to make sure he knows you are in charge. If you have to use a prong while walking why is that?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

szariksdad said:


> Crating him more often will not establish that you are alpha to him. To lead you have to be a leader which means be fair firm and consistent. You did not show consistency on the furniture thing so he now is testing the boundarys elsewhere.


The inconsistency with furniture is exactly why crating him while he is not being supervised _will_ help establish the boundaries because he won't be able to get on the furniture and self-reinforce when no one is home.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

There are other ways to train a dog to not get on the furniture while you are gone beside a crate. It is not a simple one or the other.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

HobNob said:


> Duke is 5 years old. He has been IN OUR HOME for 11 weeks. Thanks for the encouragement.


DA! Sorry - - - That's what I get for trying to chew gum and walk at the same time!!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

No, crating him will not make up for training him. Right now he needs training, the crate is not going to change his attitude about anything. 

Have you heard of Nothing in Life is Free? It's a "game/method" used by most dog owners to ensure that they are the leaders of their dogs and to keep their dog's balanced by always looking to their owner for guidance. It helps the dogs realize that the owner is always in control and they don't need to worry about solving issues, because the owner has it. It basically teaches them what's expected of them. 

For the most part, all it envolves is making the dog do something before getting ANYTHING. I enforce this heavily in my house, and I know a lot of other people do too. Most people use a sit, because it's an easy command for dogs to learn. Before we go outside, before they get fed, before we cross the street, before they meet a dog, before they get on the bed, before we pet them, before I throw the ball, etc. they both MUST sit. It calms their brain down a lot because they know that I'm controlling the situation always and they don't need to be a mental mess worrying about this or that. It's always the same. I would start this with Duke ASAP. 

As for the toy or food growling when you try to take it- that's called resource guarding. A lot of dogs have it either with people or other dogs. Playing the trading game with him will cure this over time. Instead of taking it away harshly and not giving it back, or waiting to give it back, offer a better peice of food or a cooler toy for what he currently has, and trade toys/food with him often. He'll learn that you taking something from him doesn't mean it's the end of play or food, and that he WILL get more. 

Also, you said you correct him and he growls. How are you correcting him? Using physical force is never a good idea, especially in a rescue dog. I presume you have no idea what his past was like? Use positive reinforcement like treats or toys to redirect him and ask him to do something else when he's doing something you don't like, and move away from body blocking (unless absolutely necessary) and physical touch for a reprimand.

Good luck!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Another thread: SuperDog Training Program? (







1 2)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

It would have helped if you mentioned up front that he is 5 years old. People tend to think you are talking about a puppy when you say you have had him 11 weeks, then tend to give you puppy-related solutions. You have a dog with entrenched behaviors and attitudes regarding people and situations. The first thing you need to do is establish a bond and trust. 11 weeks isn't that much in the life of a mature dog. If you intend to change him it will take time, patience and assertiveness. The sooner you can get professional help the better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> Have you heard of Nothing in Life is Free? *It's a "game/method" used by most dog owners to ensure that they are the leaders of their dogs and to keep their dog's balanced by always looking to their owner for guidance.*


If only this statement was true, perhaps shelters and rescues throughout our country would not be overloaded.

People with problem dogs, who actually go the extra mile and seek advice are often helped by incororating NILIF with their dog. And it becomes a way of life, and future dogs are incorporated into the home with the system in place. 

I would not even say that most people on this site use NILIF though. I never have. I think it mostly gives a blue print for people who are having problems managing their dogs' issues, to help them improve their leadership style.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> If only this statement was true, perhaps shelters and rescues throughout our country would not be overloaded.
> 
> People with problem dogs, who actually go the extra mile and seek advice are often helped by incororating NILIF with their dog. And it becomes a way of life, and future dogs are incorporated into the home with the system in place.
> 
> I would not even say that most people on this site use NILIF though. I never have. I think it mostly gives a blue print for people who are having problems managing their dogs' issues, to help them improve their leadership style.


I should have said (and meant) that most dog people here use it, but I guess that was an assumption. Most dog people I have talked to personally and IRL use NILIF for issue dogs and dogs without issues. I'd much rather keep this going from the start and not have an issue than let an issue crop up and have to deal with it. I suppose it's more needed for people with pets in the home though, too. 

I don't think that just because you don't use it, that most people here don't. Even if everyone isn't using it the same way or for all of the same things, I think the majority of the forum uses it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DJEtzel said:


> I should have said (and meant) that most dog people here use it, but I guess that was an assumption. Most dog people I have talked to personally and IRL use NILIF for issue dogs and dogs without issues. I'd much rather keep this going from the start and not have an issue than let an issue crop up and have to deal with it.


That's how I use it too. How am I to know whether or not a brand new puppy is going to need NILIF somewhere down the road or not? I'd rather start out fairly strict from the very beginning and if it turns out to not really be necessary I can relax my standards from there. Much better than being too lenient and then having to tighten things up after problems have already started to occur. 

But most of the NILIF stuff I do just ends up becoming a routine part of our day to day lives with the dogs, so even if it's not strictly adhered to anymore, it's never fully stopped either. 

BTW, the OP has a previous thread asking about NILIF: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/149969-nilif-no-instructions.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Danielle, you cannot assume that the 2000+ members ascribe to NILIF. My dogs Do live in my house, and I do not and never have needed to use NILIF. And many people I talk to do not use it either. I am not saying it is harmful, but until you have a dog that NEEDS it, you are probably not going to go that route. If you are already doing it because of another dog, it makes sense to do it with new dogs coming in. 

Using it just because a pup MIGHT need it down the line, is foreign to me. But whatever.

Maybe we should start a thread/Poll on how many people use NILIF to manage their dogs. 

Then maybe we can go beyond assumptions. 

I think lots of people had dogs long before NILIF got to be popular, and have raised their dogs without issues, and those people are not going to be on board. While people with their first new puppy might have found it and decided to go by it. 

Maybe working line dogs need the extra structure more than showline dogs. Who knows? The only dog I ever had that I might have considered it for was a working line male.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> Danielle, you cannot assume that the 2000+ members ascribe to NILIF. My dogs Do live in my house, and I do not and never have needed to use NILIF. And many people I talk to do not use it either. I am not saying it is harmful, but until you have a dog that NEEDS it, you are probably not going to go that route. If you are already doing it because of another dog, it makes sense to do it with new dogs coming in.
> 
> Using it just because a pup MIGHT need it down the line, is foreign to me. But whatever.
> 
> ...


So you don't ask anything of your dogs before they're allowed to do anything, ever? I can't imagine that working out well, especially in a multi-dog household. You just throw them their food, toss treats to them for nothing, etc? I can't imagine that being EASY to do, tbh.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Hey Selzer you should totally make that poll, I want to know too how many use NILIF.

And I use NILIF preemptively as well. It worked so well with Niko and Rosa that I will use it for every puppy I have henceforth. I believe I avoided MANY behavioral issues by using it from day one.

Selzer, I do admire you that your dogs are so well-mannered that you don't need to use NILIF. But for more inexperienced dog owners, it provides a blueprint of sorts for teaching your puppy good house manners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are allowed on my bed, and on my sofa. They know they are not allowed on top of the tables or counters. It does work by the way. I do not make them sing for their supper, so sorry, not all dogs need that. 

I feed them in their crates. No reason to create problems when they do not exist. 

As for treats, yeah, I am not a big treat giver. Sometimes I go to the fridge and get a piece of cheese or a bone. And sometimes I ask for a trick for that, and sometimes I do not. Usually not. They are are not allowed to snatch it, and they do not. They take it gentle, every time. Sometimes I let someone clean my plate after dinner. And I will feed them while I am cooking. They cannot be pushy about it. It works. 

You may think it cannot work, but it really depends on the dogs, and the owner. None of my dogs have any behavioral issues. All of them (save the puppies) are trained and titled, and also have other certificates. I train them once a week, when we are going for a title or certificate. I do not use special collars or clickers or other training aides. 

But I do expect them to go where I tell them to go and do what I tell them to do. I do not repeat myself. I speak with authority, not timid, not babyish or pitiful. 

But I NEVER ask for them to do something for pets or to go up on the couch or to go out to potty or to get their dinner. It works for people, but it is not the ONLY way to manage dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Lol, okay.

I won't take away from the OP's thread any further. Who wants to start the poll?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good_Karma said:


> Hey Selzer you should totally make that poll, I want to know too how many use NILIF.
> 
> And I use NILIF preemptively as well. It worked so well with Niko and Rosa that I will use it for every puppy I have henceforth. I believe I avoided MANY behavioral issues by using it from day one.
> 
> Selzer, I do admire you that your dogs are so well-mannered that you don't need to use NILIF. But for more inexperienced dog owners, it provides a blueprint of sorts for teaching your puppy good house manners.


I agree with you, and I even used the word blue print. And I think that if most people DID use it there would be less dogs in shelters and rescues. 

But I do not use it and I think a lot of people here do not. There are other ways to manage dogs. Maybe they overlap into NILIF. I mean, I imagine the creator of NILIF, started out with what was tried and true and worked for them. 

But there are parts of it, I do not like. Like making a dog do something to give him his dinner. Doing something for a treat, an extra is fine. But forcing a dog to perform for his dinner should only happen if the dog needs rehabilitation. 

I have given advice for people to look it up, because a person who has no leadership skills needs a blueprint. Other people can do just fine without it, and will not go that route unless there are issues. 

My dogs know the rules. There are limits and boundaries. It is not a big free-for-all. It is just not NILIF.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> Lol, okay.
> 
> I won't take away from the OP's thread any further. Who wants to start the poll?


Yeah, I was thinking that too. I guess I can.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Yeah, I am not super strict any more with the rules of NILIF. I will pet either dog if they seek affection (but not if they are being rude about it, I don't know how many times I've spilled coffee because Niko shoved his big head under my arm), although I do prefer to have Rosa sit or lay down first since she likes to jump on people. I do want my dogs to sit for their dinners since otherwise they'd be nosing into the bowl and spilling food. So I make them wait until the bowl is on the floor before they can eat. And I still make them sit and wait to be released before I let them out the door. 

They don't have to behave like trained monkeys for me, but they have to be polite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that sometimes the dogs train me as much as I train them. I mean, a lot of times I manage things rather than train the dog. My new dog Odessa barks like a fool when I go out and work with, or bring Jenna in. Not very nice at 2AM -- don't ask. But if I crate her before going out, than the problem is solved. That is not training, it is management. But it is also not a terrible aggressive issue. It is more the big green monster rearing its ugly head. Her barks are not "I AM GOING TO KILL AND EAT YOU!" They are, " I am going to die, you looked at that other bitch again, life is not worth living!" There is a difference.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> No, crating him will not make up for training him. Right now he needs training, the crate is not going to change his attitude about anything.
> 
> Have you heard of Nothing in Life is Free? It's a "game/method" used by most dog owners to ensure that they are the leaders of their dogs and to keep their dog's balanced by always looking to their owner for guidance. It helps the dogs realize that the owner is always in control and they don't need to worry about solving issues, because the owner has it. It basically teaches them what's expected of them.
> 
> ...


I am familiar with both NILIF and resource guarding. I was advised on both a while back here on the forum. We do practice NILIF with Duke, and have been since probably his 5th or 6th day in our home. I personally am not sure how I feel about the trading up thing. We have done it with him, and of course at the moment he is fully willing to give up his toy for a treat. Whether trading up will "cure" him of his resource guarding...I don't know. I've heard mixed reviews of this approach. Also, it's frustrating to try this with Duke because he is SO food/treat motivated that once you introduce the treat he couldn't give a rats patooty about the toy. There is no giving the toy back to him and then practicing trading up again. You can do it once and then will have to return to it a while later...that is, if you can get him interested in the toy again later. He really doesn't care about toys. Even his Nylabone only keeps his attention for a few minutes.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Have you tried trading just food for food and toys for toys?


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Have you tried trading just food for food and toys for toys?


Haven't tried food for food. I think we've tried toys for toys...but again, he just isn't that interested in toys. I'll try working on this again. A trainer is coming to our home next Saturday to work with us, so we will be learning how to overcome this.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

After reading both of your thread HobNob how do you define a leader and what are the traits that a person a good leader? also what are some examples you have of this in how you conduct things in your life? I think this might be where the problem for you is.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> After reading both of your thread HobNob how do you define a leader and what are the traits that a person a good leader? also what are some examples you have of this in how you conduct things in your life? I think this might be where the problem for you is.


As first time dog owners, these are things my husband and I need to learn. If we had all the answers, why would we be consulting with trainers?

I feel as though you keep asking questions as if you are waiting for me to answer them incorrectly. I'm not going to answer these questions. The bottom line is we adopted a dog, he is a good dog but we have had some minor issues with his behavior, we have done some research and learned these behaviors need to be dealt with, we have looked around for a trainer and found one who we believe will be able to help us, and she is coming to our home next weekend. We expect to learn a great deal from her and to improve our relationship with our dog.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I am not looking for incorrect answers nor was I aware you were first time dog owners. I was wanting to know where you were starting from and what insights I could offer from my experience for there is no right answer to a question just a starting point to learn from. 

As a first time dog owner what did the rescue offer beside trainers as resources for you to deal with the dog you got. I know our local place has a whole website of documents you can read to learn how to handle a dog as a first time owner.


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## Ayla's mom (10 mo ago)

HobNob said:


> No, Duke does not cause problems in the house when we're not here to supervise. As I stated in my original post, he can be trusted loose in the house. I'm just wondering if giving him free roam of the house from day one was a mistake and possibly left him thinking this is as much his house as it is ours.


Hi ! 
I can talk for myself , my puppy is almost 12 weeks now , she is a working line GSD . We got her at 8 weeks ... 
Having a -Routine for GSD is very important . By having your dog roam free inside your house it doesn't encourage him to " settled or focus / to achieve a specific task or to obey /tolerate being discipline (positively) , to do something or be somewhere fix " . So when you are asking or wanting something from him it might be harder to obtain what you want as he is not use to "settled by himself" So its negative to have him toam free 24h/24h/7 days a week. The crate HELPS a lot to create some natural discipline for your puppy and establish a routine and something fix . Especially on the first year, I suggest that you crate him also for his own good ( even if he doesn't destroy your house...yet) . It will help VERY MUCH him to understand and to grow as a more obedient and calm dog and also confiant dog. Also not crating your dog in the first year can result as separation anxiety. Your dog don't and can't think " this is my house , your house blablabla" . But he doesn't need and shouldn't be allow to roam free either that youre home or not . I suggest you start crate training as soon as possible . So that he can establish and learn to settle. Crate is very important especially when you are training him (you can have a look on that , on the website of K9 School Ohio) ... Finally , the goal is that your puppy can stay in his crate in a separate room when you're home and be fine (that's the ultimate goal , when you're there you'll know you did a good job) and that will help both of you and your pup. You can see the crate as " an invisible barrier " that teaches a certain boundary . It will impregnate on your pup and in some ways have a positive impact on his overall behavior. 

I did not start crating my pup when I first got her , as I was always home and at night my room was "dogproof " so I was like you letting him roam free. On his second week with me , it was hard for him to listen , everything he had learn he forgot and started being reactive to me and bite ...... So then I wonder what I did wrong and where did my perfect pup go  .... That's the moment I decided to even if im all the time home , I will establish a strict schedule for him that includes some time in the crate . It took some time as he would wine and cry in the beginning , but now he can be in there for up to 2-3hrs and doing totally fine . That helps very much both of us . He stopped biting and reacting to me and was even waiting to go in his crate ❤ Hope this will helps you


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## Ayla's mom (10 mo ago)

HobNob said:


> Will crating help to establish WE are the alpha?
> 
> Duke has been in our home for 11 weeks, and since day one he has not had to be crated at night or while we are gone at work. He can be trusted loose in the house. BUT we are having issues with him trying to be the alpha...at least that's what we think is going on. For example, growling if we try to take a toy from him, barking or snipping at us when we correct him & use our body to block him from going somewhere he's not supposed to go. We will be consulting with a trainer on this, but for now I am wondering if we should start crating him at night and/or while we are at work? Will this help to establish that this is OUR house and HE lives in it instead of this is HIS house and WE live in it? I'm thinking it might have been a mistake to give him free roam of the house from day one.
> 
> Will crating help with this?


Start little , give him a chance to adjust you know especially if he is not use to be in the crate , use lots of positive reward . Take this crate training time to bond with him . He needs to love his crate. Do it over a few weeks . But the goal is to have a fully crate trained GSD


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## Ayla's mom (10 mo ago)

Ayla's mom said:


> Hi !
> I can talk for myself , my puppy is almost 12 weeks now , she is a working line GSD . We got her at 8 weeks ...
> Having a -Routine for GSD is very important . By having your dog roam free inside your house it doesn't encourage him to " settled or focus / to achieve a specific task or to obey /tolerate being discipline (positively) , to do something or be somewhere fix " . So when you are asking or wanting something from him it might be harder to obtain what you want as he is not use to "settled by himself" So its negative to have him toam free 24h/24h/7 days a week. The crate HELPS a lot to create some natural discipline for your puppy and establish a routine and something fix . Especially on the first year, I suggest that you crate him also for his own good ( even if he doesn't destroy your house...yet) . It will help VERY MUCH him to understand and to grow as a more obedient and calm dog and also confiant dog. Also not crating your dog in the first year can result as separation anxiety. Your dog don't and can't think " this is my house , your house blablabla" . But he doesn't need and shouldn't be allow to roam free either that youre home or not . I suggest you start crate training as soon as possible . So that he can establish and learn to settle. Crate is very important especially when you are training him (you can have a look on that , on the website of K9 School Ohio) ... Finally , the goal is that your puppy can stay in his crate in a separate room when you're home and be fine (that's the ultimate goal , when you're there you'll know you did a good job) and that will help both of you and your pup. You can see the crate as " an invisible barrier " that teaches a certain boundary . It will impregnate on your pup and in some ways have a positive impact on his overall behavior.
> 
> I did not start crating my pup when I first got her , as I was always home and at night my room was "dogproof " so I was like you letting him roam free. On his second week with me , it was hard for him to listen , everything he had learn he forgot and started being reactive to me and bite ...... So then I wonder what I did wrong and where did my perfect pup go  .... That's the moment I decided to even if im all the time home , I will establish a strict schedule for him that includes some time in the crate . It took some time as he would wine and cry in the beginning , but now he can be in there for up to 2-3hrs and doing totally fine . That helps very much both of us . He stopped biting and reacting to me and was even waiting to go in his crate ❤ Hope this will helps you


Always keep in mind , GSD needs to be mentally challenge and needs to fulfill task/achievement etc. The crate will help him as it is something he will go everyday and you will make him associate that it is something positive. I recommend you yhe crate , but not putting him 24/24h in it either . A good balance is what they need  
Good luck and keep us updated ^^


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

11 year old thread


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