# Rebuilding Confidence After Injury?



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

3 weeks ago during bitework, the helper (not our good one, the one I don't like) was working Leyna. He did not catch her properly and then he dropped her when she was about 3 feet or so off the ground. She landed hard on her knee and lay on her side screaming. No serious injury but a bad, painful drop. The vet cleared her to go back to training so yesterday was her first day back.
When we got to the bitework, she would not take the tug from the helper. Took it from me just fine, but I know she trusts me. All she did was keep looking back at me or run back to me.
How do I help her get her confidence back?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

You can't. A helper will have to do it probably by using lot's of prey (no direct movement into the dog). I would give the dog an immediate win just for taking the tug into it's mouth at all, then I would build upon that.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

She has massive prey drive. You could tell she wanted to bite but was scared.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Yep no eye contact, no direct movement, an experienced helper should get her back on with a little time.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have the 'good' helper work her, back tie her and build some drive, and like Matt suggests, give her the rewards fast when she goes forward. If she is of good nerve she should bounce back with no problem.
Her age may be playing a part in this too, I wouldn't push her whatsoever til she gets past this.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks guys. Reading this has calmed me a little because I was pretty hot and have been for about 3 weeks. grrr The helper that dropped her will not be working with her anymore. He normally doesn't work her because I really do not trust him anyways.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In the grand scheme of things, 3 weeks really isn't that long of a break especially for a young impressionable dog just one year old. I'm not even talking about the injury (I trust the vet's opinion). It might not hurt to wait even longer if she is showing conflict.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Liesje said:


> In the grand scheme of things, 3 weeks really isn't that long of a break especially for a young impressionable dog just one year old. I'm not even talking about the injury (I trust the vet's opinion). It might not hurt to wait even longer if she is showing conflict.


 Agreed. No need to get in a hurry, especially with things of this nature.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The only thing about leaving it be right now...it may manifest into more fear if you don't just work thru it now. Waiting a few more weeks may not help. I would try one more session of reward/positive training and see if you can get her worked thru it. Then give her a break if she isn't showing progression. Sometimes a break is needed, other times you need to carry on to get back on track. The helper should be able to read this, and how to proceed within a couple minutes of the next session.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. I know 3 weeks isn't that long, but I really do not want her to stay away longer for the reasons Jane posted.
After her failed bitework this weekend, we sat and she just watched the next dog do her bitework. Her ears were forward and she was focused the entire time on it. It looked like she wanted to go back out and bite.
Ahhhh, I guess time will tell and I need to learn some patience.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> In the grand scheme of things, 3 weeks really isn't that long of a break especially for a young impressionable dog just one year old. I'm not even talking about the injury (I trust the vet's opinion). It might not hurt to wait even longer if she is showing conflict.


I agree 100%, give the dog some time. IME, dogs tend to forget that one bad experience if you give it some time. And when you take her back the next time I would not do any direct work. Just post her out and let her watch a few other dogs work. Do this until *she* starts to initiate the action with your helper. 

I would also work her in a different area than the one she got hurt in. Dogs make strong place associations. Have the helper work her at your house or somewhere else that the dog feels comfortable. If that's imposable then meet at a neutral location.

Right now the bitch is scared and the helper is extra scary to her. If you continue to push her this she will always see the helper larger than life. 

Good luck. I hope you get her back on track.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If she shows interest when another dog goes, why not tie her out and have her watch for a while? Get her barking and wanting to work, like Fast said. I see Jane's point but that the same time I wouldn't want the helper to go too easy on the dog. It really shouldn't be just a game and if the dog is not ready for more, better to wait.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Fast said:


> I would also work her in a different area than the one she got hurt in. Dogs make strong place associations. Have the helper work her at your house or somewhere else that the dog feels comfortable. If that's imposable then meet at a neutral location.
> 
> Right now the bitch is scared and the helper is extra scary to her. If you continue to push her this she will always see the helper larger than life.
> 
> Good luck. I hope you get her back on track.


The fear reaction jaggirl is referring to was evidenced in a new place, on a completely different helper.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

To add to that, the dog initially was fearful, but the "new" helper worked her through it, and the dog was fine. The session was prematurely ended when the line became wrapped around her leg, and the dog unloaded drive while being untangled.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So the injury wasn't the reason for her hesitance to engage? Maybe Leyna needs a break to mature a bit more? The lines she is from may be the reason for her attitude.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> So the injury wasn't the reason for her hesitance to engage? Maybe Leyna needs a break to mature a bit more? The lines she is from may be the reason for her attitude.


It's probable that the dog, not having been worked in protection since the incident, still had it in the back of her mind on the new field, with the new helper, and was unsure.

The perception of the new helper was that the dog appeared attracted to the prey, but unsure. He continued to agitate the dog, and the dog did engage with him, but things came to a halt when the lines became tangled and the dog subsequently unloaded.

I unfortunately missed a good chunk of Leyna's session getting my own dog ready, but the dog did engage, she just needed more build-up.

I would say that the dog's lines are a factor, and that the dog is softer than some.

It is the nature of our training that sometimes accidents do happen. 

A different dog would have come back completely unfazed by the fall.
Another dog might be completely ruined by the experience.
Dogs that are suited to the work, recover. Leyna worked through it and did engage the helper yesterday.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If this were my dog and if she did engage, then I would take her back next week, pat her up and give her verbal encouragement while the helper does his thing. 
Keep the session short and sweet, with her wanting more and then maybe a second session put a bit more into it and see if there is progress. The helper should be the one to tell when to end it and when to give a bit more pressure. 

We here on the forum have no clue what is going on!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

SchDDR said:


> unloaded drive while being untangled.


Can you explain this more clearly? What does unloaded mean and what happened after she had "unloaded"?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

The lines became tangled. There was a pause in the work to untangle the lines, where the helper was not engaging or agitating the dog.

After that, the dog was no longer in a high enough state of drive to allow the work to continue. The helper made the decision not to attempt agitating the dog back to that level, as the dog had already been on the field for a bit and was tiring.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> We here on the forum have no clue what is going on!


We should have some video soon of this latest session, which took place during a joint training session between our club and another club in our region. One of the other club's members filmed each dog during the protection phase. It will probably take her some time to download all that video and send it out.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> give the dog some time. IME, dogs tend to forget that one bad experience if you give it some time. And when you take her back the next time I would not do any direct work. Just post her out and let her watch a few other dogs work. Do this until *she* starts to initiate the action with your helper.


And then wait some more. People would be much better off if they did this in the first place, injury or not but in this case it IS the thing to do vs trying to "work thru" a problem in the same scenario. You can fix one problem by working somewhere else in a way that might seem completely different . It does not have to be fixed where it was broken.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Fast said:


> Just post her out and let her watch a few other dogs work.





Liesje said:


> If she shows interest when another dog goes, why not tie her out and have her watch for a while? Get her barking and wanting to work, like Fast said.





Vandal said:


> And then wait some more.


This is pretty much the game plan for the time being.
Leyna is one of two dogs that need time to mature before they're ready to return to protection work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SchDDR said:


> The lines became tangled. There was a pause in the work to untangle the lines, where the helper was not engaging or agitating the dog.
> 
> After that, the dog was no longer in a high enough state of drive to allow the work to continue. The helper made the decision not to attempt agitating the dog back to that level, as the dog had already been on the field for a bit and was tiring.


The helper should have sent her out when she was in the highest state of drive. Once he noticed that the dog gets tired and with her background why did he continue to work her so she got tangled up and did not send her out when she was in the highest state?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

There are other factors at work here that are internal club matters that don't need to be aired on a public forum.

The helper, who had never worked or even met this dog before, was at a disadvantage of not having the full background on the dog, the dog's temperament and drives, and the dog's past experiences. The people who were with the dog and helper on the field were not the best people to share that information with the helper. Novice handlers often do not have accurate perceptions of their dogs, and the people on the field with with the helper were all novices.

I'm sure that, had the helper had the advantage of those things, he would have done just as you suggested.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

The intent was to end the training with the dog still high in drive. The tangling of lines was inadvertent and unplanned.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

SchDDR said:


> There are other factors at work here that are internal club matters that don't need to be aired on a public forum.
> 
> The helper, who had never worked or even met this dog before, was at a disadvantage of not having the full background on the dog, the dog's temperament and drives, and the dog's past experiences. The people who were with the dog and helper on the field were not the best people to share that information with the helper. Novice handlers often do not have accurate perceptions of their dogs, and the people on the field with with the helper were all novices.
> 
> I'm sure that, had the helper had the advantage of those things, he would have done just as you suggested.


This post along with the clue of the dog got discombobulated and could not come back into drive tells the story. :smirk:


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

_SchDDR said:
There are other factors at work here that are internal club matters that don't need to be aired on a public forum_.

I don't know, but I think you are doing a pretty good job of "airing."


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SchDDR said:


> There are other factors at work here that are internal club matters that don't need to be aired on a public forum.
> 
> The helper, who had never worked or even met this dog before, was at a disadvantage of not having the full background on the dog, the dog's temperament and drives, and the dog's past experiences. The people who were with the dog and helper on the field were not the best people to share that information with the helper. Novice handlers often do not have accurate perceptions of their dogs, and the people on the field with with the helper were all novices.
> 
> I'm sure that, had the helper had the advantage of those things, he would have done just as you suggested.


to be honest, a good helper, can read a dog. If the dog is unsure of what he's supposed to do, all I am going to do is to build some drive and send him out when he's in the best possible stage. 

A helper HAS GOT to notice when a dog is unsure and he's GOT to notice when the dog is losing interest and getting tired. 

Another thing I noticed is that it sounds like you have quite a few helpers involved. Sounds like at least three helpers. The good one, the inexperienced one and the new one. 

Plus the comment about "accidents happen".
No, they don't just happen. NOT with a dog like that! 
If I have a dog, that's been a bit fearful in the beginning I don't have three different people working that dog. And if an accident like that happens, I don't go to a new helper. I am going to the good helper and have him build the dog back up again. 

From this point on, no other helper would be allowed to lay hand on my dog and make things worse than they already are! 
If that new helper was a good helper, he would have noticed in what stage that dog was in, with or without the background information because a good helper can read a dog. 

Until that dog is stable and rock solid there should only be one helper working that dog, an experienced man or woman who knows what he/she is doing. 
If too many people try to put their way on her, it's not going to get any better. I've been there and done that. 

ONE HELPER!

If that helper isn't there, no bitework! At least that is what I'd do. 
Don't push her too fast. Take your time!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me the issue is not so much the injury but what that might tell us about the dog - how does the dog react and recover from something unexpected. I could be WAY off base but it seems that dogs working primarily in prey (which often is younger dogs and/or dogs working on helpers that don't know how to work anything else) seem to be more affected by these sorts of accidents. I don't like working in only prey for a lot of reasons but one of them seems to me that prey alone isn't enough to carry the dog through these sorts of situations where there might be a physical accident or some sort of conflict or mental challenge or maybe something that is a combination of all of those. I'm not saying the dog is only a prey dog or that's how the dog has been worked, just saying maybe it's a possibility (it came to mind b/c the OP mentioned the dog has loads of prey drive). That is why I would hold off or just tie out the dog until the dog can bring more than prey to the field or until the helper is willing to bring more than prey out of the dog.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I wonder about "getting tangled in the lines."

I am assuming a young dog in the build drive and confidence stage. For myself I prefer a harness (as I feel it is less likely to cause flips and injuries, just personal opinion there).

But hearing "lines" makes me think harness/agitation collar and a prong. If that is the case I would wonder why the prong.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

And people wonder why its hard to find a helper.

No way should this have been brought up on a public forum when there was an experienced helper in the club, the one that you liked, at the club that you could have gotten help from. 

Your first mistake was letting someone you dont like work your dog. You get 100% of the blame. If you dont like him...guess what he more than likely doesnt like you. You set your dog up to fail.

I am not saying that the helper would ever do anything intentional but if he knows you dont like him his heart may not have been in it. The dog sounds like a softer dog and it may have acted a little differently than what he was expecting.

I WILL NOT WORK A DOG for someone I dont like or I know does not like me. 

For the people who want a nice dog for home and maybe to keep away bad guys at night just go and buy a well bred working line dog. Take it to some akc classes and teach the dog sit means sit, down means down, and walk beside me nice means just that. Most protection work at 90% of schutzhund clubs is not protection. In fact it takes the dog the other way.

So, if you dont want to be a trial hero dont waste your time with clubs or forums. If you buy that well bred dog, *mother nature and the breeder has already taken care of what you will need* for around the house protection......dont screw it up. The UPS man will be all the protection training you need and the dog never needs a bite.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I do not think this dog has big time prey drive...just my opinion. Not even strong prey drive....I think that the dog may have moderate prey drive, but if it was stronger than moderate, the drive would have hastened the recovery unless there were some unsureness issues. I also think that you should have the dog staked out watching bitework, and building herself back up. I would also go back to tugs on flirtpoles...of course these are safe suggestions because I can't see the dog to see what's going on. I do think you are probably starting the dog in protection areas that she is not really ready for....JMO.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I do not think this dog has big time prey drive...just my opinion. Not even strong prey drive....I think that the dog may have moderate prey drive, but if it was stronger than moderate, the drive would have hastened the recovery unless there were some unsureness issues. I also think that you should have the dog staked out watching bitework, and building herself back up. I would also go back to tugs on flirtpoles...of course these are safe suggestions because I can't see the dog to see what's going on. I do think you are probably starting the dog in protection areas that she is not really ready for....JMO.


Agreed.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

OK, this has absolutely nothing to do with internal club issues. I just want to say that straight off because it was drug into this.

We had a very experienced guest helper work our dogs and show our helpers a few things. We were guests at another club. This helper was informed that Leyna is still on the tug because she needs to mature. She has not yet advanced to the sleeve. Prior to Sunday, she has always engaged the helper. The helper that worked her Sunday was informed that this was her first time back after her injury 3 weeks prior. The only time she did engage was when he brought out a little bit of defense in her, which is the first time it was brought out in her. This helper's words to me were, "It's too bad that accident happened because you can tell she wants to engage. She is just very unsure."

As far as what mareg wrote, you don't know crap about my dog or why I bought her. She was not purchased to guard the house or bark at the UPS man. This was brought to a public forum for a certain reason that obviously you do not know.

The reason I posted this is because *I* need to know what *I* can do to help rebuild her confidence. This is my first working dog/schutzhund dog and I will be the first to admit I have no experience. Other opinions may help me understand what I need to do on MY part.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If she were my dog, based solely on what is posted, I would tie her out on a harness or agitation collar and no pressure until she shows you she is ready.
Take that as you will though, cause I am just a Schutzhund baby.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

gagsd said:


> If she were my dog, based solely on what is posted, I would tie her out on a harness or agitation collar and no pressure until she shows you she is ready.
> Take that as you will though, cause I am just a Schutzhund baby.


In answer to your other question, she uses and agitation collar and fur saver for bitework. She uses the tie out because I cannot hold her due to my wrist surgeries. No prong. The lines that got mixed up were the tie out and the line on the tug.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing about dogs is they are pretty forgiving-my dog doesn't keep a list of who the good helper is and who the bad helper is-she'll work for either-I don't think she remembers if they make a mistake either- I don't think she remembers if I make a mistake either-nice thing about dogs


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Didnt mean to hurt your feelings but what I say is true.

If you didnt want a dog to watch your house or a "protection dog" why are you doing protection dog or in other words "schutzhund" training? Seriously....why? This is a good qurestion for everyone on this forum. Why? If you are a breeder breeding dogs for people who dont want a protection dog and just want to have fun...why?

If you dont want that you can save so much time and trouble by just doing ob and tracking...maybe rally or agility. Nothing at all wrong with those things.

Protection dog training is just that and it is a contact activity. The dog can get hurt and if the training is done properly will feel tremendous pressure at times and learn to work through it. 

I realize you came for advice on what to do. To be honest, if you are coming to a forum to get help on protection work you do not have the help you will need to do protection work. There is a chance your dog will never work to its full potential on that field again. 

I am not trying to be nasty just trying to save you some heartache. If you dont care about a protection dog just do the other two phases and have fun.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is it common for a puppy to not recover quickly in a situation like this? Does the line that Kendra has mature slower than other lines? I"m just curious, just trying to understand the whole situation.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

mareg said:


> ....Protection dog training is just that and it is a contact activity. The dog can get hurt and if the training is done properly will feel tremendous pressure at times and learn to work through it.
> 
> I realize you came for advice on what to do. To be honest, if you are coming to a forum to get help on protection work you do not have the help you will need to do protection work. There is a chance your dog will never work to its full potential on that field again.
> 
> I am not trying to be nasty just trying to save you some heartache. If you dont care about a protection dog just do the other two phases and have fun.


Point 1: As a relative newbie, I understand that protection sports are difficult and can cause injury. However, I take all of the precautions I can with my dog. I may drive our TD and helper a little crazy, but I am crazy about my dog, and want to prevent foreseeable and avoidable injuries.

Point 2: Speaking from my point of view... Newbies have lots of questions and insecurities. Sometimes we ask the same questions of many people and then sift through the answers. We appreciate feedback from more experienced people, whether on a forum or in real life. Hopefully the more experinced will continue to have patience with us.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

mareg said:


> Didnt mean to hurt your feelings but what I say is true.
> 
> If you didnt want a dog to watch your house or a "protection dog" why are you doing protection dog or in other words "schutzhund" training? Seriously....why? This is a good qurestion for everyone on this forum. Why? If you are a breeder breeding dogs for people who dont want a protection dog and just want to have fun...why?
> 
> ...


It is really nice that you are trying to save her some heartache-but schutzhund is a sport why should it cause anyone heartache-And how do you know without even seeing her dog that what you say is true-that's pretty impressive


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

gagsd said:


> Point 1: As a relative newbie, I understand that protection sports are difficult and can cause injury. However, I take all of the precautions I can with my dog. I may drive our TD and helper a little crazy, but I am crazy about my dog, and want to prevent foreseeable and avoidable injuries.
> 
> Point 2: Speaking from my point of view... Newbies have lots of questions and insecurities. Sometimes we ask the same questions of many people and then sift through the answers. We appreciate feedback from more experienced people, whether on a forum or in real life. Hopefully the more experinced will continue to have patience with us.


 
Very good post! And pretty dead on.

I am a newbie. This is my first dog I am doing Schutzhund with. I love the sport and plan to keep on with it but I do have alot of questions and will continue to until I master it about 50 years from now.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

holland said:


> It is really nice that you are trying to save her some heartache-but schutzhund is a sport why should it cause anyone heartache-And how do you know without even seeing her dog that what you say is true-that's pretty impressive


 
Thank you holland.

As far as that other person, whoever you are. I know Schutzhund has protection. It also has tracking and obedience. However, I am extremely new at the sport and came asking a question. There are several members on here who have helped me a great deal in the past on several things and I know they have given me ideas this time. I appreciate their experience.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Is it common for a puppy to not recover quickly in a situation like this? Does the line that Kendra has mature slower than other lines? I"m just curious, just trying to understand the whole situation.


 
She is a Czech line pup. Czech and DDR tend to mature at a slower rate than West German.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

I still say you are 100% responsible when you let someone you do not like work your dog. There was no reason to post that you do not like the helper. If you were really just interested in asking a question you would have never added "I never liked the herlper" part. So, dont try to put the negative spin on me. 

dogs mature when they mature......the lines dont make much difference. I have seen many west german lines that take longer to mature than others. Some may see a dog come out with a ton of prey and work early on through prey and think it is mature. May not be the case.

Your dog may percieve things a little differently that the high prey dog. Its not how we think the dog is working or in what drive....it is how the dog percieves the work.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

mareg said:


> I still say you are 100% responsible when you let someone you do not like work your dog. There was no reason to post that you do not like the helper. If you were really just interested in asking a question you would have never added "I never liked the herlper" part. So, dont try to put the negative spin on me.
> 
> dogs mature when they mature......the lines dont make much difference. I have seen many west german lines that take longer to mature than others. Some may see a dog come out with a ton of prey and work early on through prey and think it is mature. May not be the case.
> 
> Your dog may percieve things a little differently that the high prey dog. Its not how we think the dog is working or in what drive....it is how the dog percieves the work.


 
You don't know me and you don't know my dog so what you say doesn't really matter. Are you here on this post to actually give advice to my question or to be a troll and cause arguments?

As far as her bitework, she loves it. I also know she is not mature compared to other dogs. It would help if her handler had more experience, but I don't and I am trying to learn.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Kendra,
Good luck with your girl. One thing to keep in mind is that many of those more experienced people don't mince words. So as one newbie to another, don't go into defense. (spoken by someone who is very reactive and defensive )

Mareg is right about who you let work your dog. Sometimes, since protection is the BEST part, we work our dogs when maybe we should not. This has been very hard for me. If it is a new helper that I don't know, I try to watch first. I also appreciate the work that helpers do, even if it is not a helper I actually am able to use, for whatever reason.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

rarely does it happen - but I actually agree with Holland in a few posts above.

Maturity has little to do with resilience - my first Schh3 dog was a DDR female (mostly) from a dog much maligned as a producer here. Exceedingly good dog. At less than a year old, while backtied, she had a canine snapped partially off as she grabbed at a tug where a line/snap was attached and it was jerked off of her, I did not realize the tooth was snapped off until I was driving home and saw it was broken in the car...it did not stop her from biting the tug a few seconds later. About 6 months later, at night, backtied and on the sleeve - helper was hitting the sleeve with a stick - popped her in the eyeball...she yelped let go and right back on...next morning her eye was pure milky white and I was seeing an opthomologist.

Drive, resilience and nerve strength have nothing to do with either maturity or lines but rather with carefully chosen good genetics and knowing what to expect from the genetics chosen.

Lee


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One of the most importat things you can do, especially when you go to a new place to train or you plan to work on a new helper, is to HAVE A PLAN. Convey your plan to the helper and whoever else will be assisting you. 

This is not just true for new people, it is the same with people who have years of experience. I can't tell you how many conversations I have had with people where something went wrong at training. Where it started to go wrong, was when the handler took the dog out on the field without a plan or without making certain the helper understood how they wanted the dog worked that day. 

Many times, there is a sign up board at clubs. In the big clubs this is especially common and there is a hurry up attitude where someone barks out, "SO and SO, get your dog". That is when you have to say wait a minute, I need to talk to the helper before I get my dog. It is EASY to get caught up in the rush but for me, it is just really important that everyone understands what they need to be doing. Most of the "good" helpers will make a point to talk about the dog and the session first but there are many who want to talk once the dog is on the field and things are already not going well.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Different lines do tend to respond and develop at differing rates to the type of training that is primarily used in the sport today. The lines with the higher prey drive tend to accelerate in training as a lot of the training techniques are grounded in prey early on. Lines like DDR and some Czech lines that have less prey and more defense often lag behind in early development in clubs. Have seen this time and time again....plus I own both types of dogs and have for years.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

gagsd said:


> Sometimes we ask the same questions of many people and then sift through the answers.


It seems like many of those sifters only let what the handler wants to hear get through. Anything they don't want to hear stays in the sifter.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

jaggirl, I dont need to know you or your dog to tell you what you did was a mistake. I probably gave you the best advice on this thread*...IF YOU DONT LIKE THE HELPER DO NOT LET THEM WORK YOUR DOG. *You seem to be missing this. As for the advice everyone else gave it is similar to what I would suggest but if you do not think before you let the dog be worked by just anyone...the later advice means nothing. Im not picking on you.

Your incident...well the EXACT same thing happened to me with my first dog, only worse. Guess what...the helper didnt want to be there that day and bam, its all over but the crying. Four years later the dog is working very nice but I had to do it myself. I made a mental note to myself "if the helper doesnt want to be there or I dont know or like the guy...he/she isnt working my dog".

Vandal gave good advice. But, I doubt she is going to do exactly what a new person tells her to do with a dog. She will probably listen to where you think you dog is and what you think it needs, then she will work your dog for 30 seconds and tell you where your dog is at and how she is going to work your dog.

DDR, Czech, West, Show...it doesnt matter. When the dog is mature it is mature. All that matters is that the helper working it can read a dog. Two minutes into the session he should be able to tell how to work the dog. 

If you want to do the sport seriously and work with good training helpers get ready to be yelled at. Things have to happen fast while training bite work, three seconds later is to late. So, get ready to get your feelings hurt if you think I have been nasty to you.

By all means ask questions. I am not saying your are doing this but...dont ask the same person questions if you dont take thier advice. People get sick of that. Another good idea would NOT to go on to the training field and tell your training helper that a person on a forums said you should do it this way or that way. It aint gonna work out. Some of the nice people who are giving you advice on here are helpers and you can bet you will not get a warm reception if you tell them that a person on a forum told you what to do. Do your research but you have to be Obama like and be very smooth and play the politics when you lay out the plan.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

mareg, my question that I asked is ways to help build her confidence back. Not one place in your posts did you answer that question. Also, if I was that sensitive to being yelled at I wouldn't have made it through 13 years in the Army. I am not missing your point on the helper comment. I am choosing to ignore it at this point because #1 it has nothing to do with the question asked and #2 I am already aware.

Fast, I think what gagsd meant is that you sift through and find which advice works best for you and your dog. That is what I do. What works for one person may not work for another.

I am very lucky that I have an excellent training director but unfortunately, she is not with me 24/7. I might drive her more insane that way.  I am just trying to figure out things I can do at home with my pup to help her out. We play alot together, tug, fetch, etc. I am trying to find maybe some "play" type activities that may help increase confidence to do with her.

I hope that kind of clears things up for some because I think some on here clung to one part of my post but missed the overall meaning and question.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This post which was the first to your question is basically the answer....if you don't want to take a break and let Leyna mature a bit:


mthurston0001 said:


> You can't. A helper will have to do it probably by using lot's of prey (no direct movement into the dog). I would give the dog an immediate win just for taking the tug into it's mouth at all, then I would build upon that.


If she lacks confidence in life in general, then that should be addressed as well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And one helper only. No experiments with other helpers until she's stable enough.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> This post which was the first to your question is basically the answer....if you don't want to take a break and let Leyna mature a bit:
> 
> If she lacks confidence in life in general, then that should be addressed as well.


Overall her confidence is good. There are a few issues that popped up over the past few months like dog aggression that we have been working on at training. The other issues are mainly due to handler incompetence, ie I am a slow learner on some things when it comes to training.
Leyna has been working in prey and she absolutely loves bitework. This past week was not her, if you get what I mean.
For what mthurston said, the guest helper this weekend worked on that with her. I am hoping a continuation of that helps out. But what can I personally do at home and away from training?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by mthurston0001 
*You can't.* A helper will have to do it probably by using lot's of prey (no direct movement into the dog). I would give the dog an immediate win just for taking the tug into it's mouth at all, then I would build upon that.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Originally Posted by mthurston0001
> *You can't.* A helper will have to do it probably by using lot's of prey (no direct movement into the dog). I would give the dog an immediate win just for taking the tug into it's mouth at all, then I would build upon that.


I got you Jane.  I was just hoping for some good activities. lol My TD says just to play with her alot and give her love and she will handle things at training. She does know my brat better than I do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Track her, it is a confidence booster and bonding time with you. Also provides mental stimulation. Are you doing any article indication yet? Maybe work on that for the next few days....praise her lots!
Teach her to run a blind, that is something you can do at this age if you aren't doing it already.
Work on holding the pvc pipe for retrieves...another way to interact. I wouldn't worry about the protection thing right now.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Agility, Tracking, Marker Training, anything where she can't do anything wrong and that boosts her confidence. 

I found that Agility is great for confidence, it did wonders with Yukon. Tracking is not only good for confidence but building a strong bond and trust between handler and dog.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I need to find a new place to track her. All of the empty lots around me now have construction. We will be doing herding again next week and I know she loves that. We have not started her on articles so I will talk to my TD on that one for home training. She does need pretty constant stimulation or she is destructopup, even with me looking at her.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Fast said:


> It seems like many of those sifters only let what the handler wants to hear get through. Anything they don't want to hear stays in the sifter.


Uh oh..... Do you know me Fast?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jaggirl47 said:


> I need to find a new place to track her. All of the empty lots around me now have construction. We will be doing herding again next week and I know she loves that. We have not started her on articles so I will talk to my TD on that one for home training. She does need pretty constant stimulation or she is destructopup, even with me looking at her.


Articles are easy, just space them out in your driveway and have a bunch of food with you. Command her to such or whatever word you use and lead her to an article, tell her to platz with it between her paws(you may need to show her the right position) and when she does, treat her and pet her calmly, go on to the next one, and repeat. Do this over about 10 times and she'll get the hang of it. If she doesn't, then take the article, keep it low to the ground and move it forward with a treat in your hand. When she follows it, praise and reward. Platzing at an article is pretty easy to train. Transferring it to the track may be more confusing, but most dogs transfer easily. Once you've gotten to that point, laying tracks goes faster, because the article is the reward(food from your hand at the indication) and you don't have to have food on the track.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Articles are easy, just space them out in your driveway and have a bunch of food with you. Command her to such or whatever word you use and lead her to an article, tell her to platz with it between her paws(you may need to show her the right position) and when she does, treat her and pet her calmly, go on to the next one, and repeat. Do this over about 10 times and she'll get the hang of it. If she doesn't, then take the article, keep it low to the ground and move it forward with a treat in your hand. When she follows it, praise and reward. Platzing at an article is pretty easy to train. Transferring it to the track may be more confusing, but most dogs transfer easily. Once you've gotten to that point, laying tracks goes faster, because the article is the reward(food from your hand at the indication) and you don't have to have food on the track.


That does sound easy to train and something she would have fun with. She does love her food.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When I am having an issue or feel stuck in a rut in one area, I tend to focus on training something new that is fairly easy and fun in another area. This tends to take my focus off the thing that is bothering me (because a lot of time all it needs is TIME or some tweaking somewhere else that will carry over) and it shows me that I am not a failure at training and my dog is not a failure. I was having a small issue with Pan's heeling, so instead of actually working on heeling, I taught him to run blinds as an obedience exercise. A few weeks later, his heeling is great! I haven't been totally satisfied with Nikon's obedience overall lately, so we have been working on his dock jumping (there is actually some technique involved!) and having a blast. Tonight I took him out and did some obedience and he did what I am looking for in him. I'm not saying to pretend the issues don't exist, but that often the training is rushed anyway so spending some time working on another area that is a fun time builds confidence in the dog and handler. Especially with protection you can't really work on that on your own, but you can have fun with your dog and train some new things to keep her mind sharp.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Flirtpole....get a big whip like the horse people use and put a tug on the end of it and really work her out....it will build speed, grip, focus, intensity, and with no negative impacts. I still use it with my 17 month old male and he has big prey and grips....plus a good workout.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. I know in some areas I am guilty of trying to push to hard. It is something my TD is working on breaking me of.
We will be doing her herding which she absolutely loves to do. I figured that would be a good, fun break during the week. It is completely off leash and works on teambuilding and confidence of both the handler and the dog.
Cliff, so swith from her long tug to a long flirt pole? She chases pretty much anything so she will most likely love it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You can attach the long tug, but I like a medium size tug to sharpen the targeting. With the horsewhip you can really extend the "rabbit" and easily make it jump/skip/ or change directions. It also exercises the dog nicely. It brings back the striking thrill to her with no adversity, and the reward is the bite in extreme drive....which is where you are trying to build back to.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> You can attach the long tug, but I like a medium size tug to sharpen the targeting. With the horsewhip you can really extend the "rabbit" and easily make it jump/skip/ or change directions. It also exercises the dog nicely. It brings back the striking thrill to her with no adversity, and the reward is the bite in extreme drive....which is where you are trying to build back to.


Thanks for explaining it to me.  Learning isn't so easy the older you get. lol I think I will bring that in over her normal tug play we do.


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