# King Shepherd Inquiry



## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm thinking about getting another dog.

I already have a 2yr old male GSD (rescued from a kill shelter). No idea about his pedigree or bloodlines. Appearance-wise he seems more "American" than traditional "European" since he is slightly taller and weighs in at over 100lbs. Though temperament-wise, he strikes me as a very traditional GSD: always on guard around the house; pretty decent prey drive (he went AWOL chasing after deer several times before I trained his recall); very aloof and confident when out in public but gets alert when he senses something out of the ordinary.

I think I lucked out with him (rescuing is always a mixed bag) and I love training and hanging out with him.

Looking at another dog, because I have the space and time and because I think another dog, of similar temperament, would be a good play-mate buddy for my dog (he's very dog friendly and always looking to play).

I've thought about a pure-bred GSD from a working line, since I am interested in Schutzhund and advanced training (have already started with my other one).

I've also thought about a King Shepherd. Don't know a whole lot about the breed other than what I've read. On paper, they seem to be a well-bred and utilitarian breed. From wikipedia (I know not the definitive source on this stuff) the breed was:



> developed from crossing German Shepherd Dog with Newfoundland[1] as well as Shiloh Shepherd and long-coated European lines of German Shepherd in the 1990s.


So definitely some LGD bloodlines in there, but also some pure-bred American and European lines. 

I like the idea of a bigger dog, even a bigger GSD, though I know careful breeding is required to weed out genetic issues (especially hip dysplasia). But I also admire the GSD's temperament and character. 

Would I be forsaking some of that traditional GSD "character" and "mettle" by going with a King Shepherd?

Does anyone here have experience with the breed and know how they compare to a well-bred GSD?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

There are two main venues that test the temperament of German Shepherds as they are intended to be.(** below for more)

The SV and recognized work trialing in IPO. (Under different club/organizational hierarchy so this is top level view to avoid getting into nitty gritty specifics)

If a breeder doesn't compete with their breeding animals to meet the minimum standards of the SV/IPO then yes, you're probably going to stray from the temperament as set forth in the breed standard.

I'm not familiar with Shiloh or King breeders putting their breeding stock through these tests to ensure they indeed have the temperament as specified by the breed standard. In fact they often advertise their dogs as being 'gentle giants'.

Never say never, you may find a King or Shiloh that does have the temperament but there's a reason you don't see extremely oversize dogs doing well in show, IPO, or real life work.

(**there's also some bite sports like PSA or SDA and dogs actually performing real life work such as police and military K9s is another test of course, just not as readily available to the general public as a means of trialing/testing dogs)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Unless you are looking for a dog that will bark, look scarey because of size and be a good deterrent only?

Depends on what your perception of 'character' and 'mettle' is too.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Unless you are looking for a dog that will bark, look scarey because of size and be a good deterrent only?
> 
> Depends on what your perception of 'character' and 'mettle' is too.


Don't want a dog that "looks scary."

I am interested in a good companion dog, that has GSD-like traits and personality: smart, confident, loyal, protective, some amount of prey-drive.

Logically, I should just get another GSD. But I am wondering if the King Shepherd fits that category or not.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Dalko43 said:


> Don't want a dog that "looks scary."
> 
> I am interested in a good companion dog, that has GSD-like traits and personality: smart, confident, loyal, protective, some amount of prey-drive.
> 
> Logically, I should just get another GSD. But I am wondering if the King Shepherd fits that category or not.


Rather than trying to fit a potentially square peg into a round hole, it would be better to start with the round peg from the beginning. 

Are there any reasons you _don't_ want a GSD? I'm of the opinion that the dog's temperament/stability is the #1 consideration factor, so if the GSD's behaviour is what you want, get a pure GSD. 

If you want a larger dog with the looks of a GSD, a King (or Shiloh) Shepherd may fit the bill, but I wouldn't expect pure GSD traits, as that's not what the dog was bred for.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The first thing I'd think about is where are you going to find one that's capable of being anything except big? If you want a dog for something specific, I think you need to find someone doing that with their dogs, not just telling you they can. If they aren't doing it, they don't know what it takes and they don't know if their dogs can.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

I appreciate the responses so far. I don't want to try to turn/train a dog into something that its not. I appreciate the GSD and all of its inherent qualities. So yes, I am inclined to get another GSD.

With that said, I am asking about the King Shepherd because I have only a vague familiarity with the breed and its capabilities/limitations. I was hoping to hear from someone who has actual working/training experience with this breed and the GSD and can thus compare the two in that regard.

Any King Shepherd owners on this forum who care to chime in?

And that's a good point Steve Strom. Any breeder who claims to have a "working" dog should probably be actually working their dogs in some form or fashion in order to develop and pass on the right traits.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I was hoping to hear from someone who has actual working/training experience with this breed


Bueller? Bueller?? I'm just kidding around Dalko, but I'd really be surprised if you can find anyone who's done much of anything beyond their own back yard or small, almost private conformation shows.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Bueller? Bueller?? I'm just kidding around Dalko, but I'd really be surprised if you can find anyone who's done much of anything beyond their own back yard or small, almost private conformation shows.


Why do you say that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A King Shepherd is not an AKC breed. That might not matter to you. It is no different really than all these Labradoodles and Puggles. It is a designer dog breed or a mongrel.

The thing is, AKC is not the end all be all, but it is the best we have in the states to keeping a stud book -- imperative for breeding, and trying to make a standard. Without a standard, you can have anything in the way of looks and temperament. Kind of like we have with the GSD.

But worse. 

I think the way the Leonbergers did it is better. The breed was originated in Germany, and they were imported and fanciers of the breed got the AKC to begin the process of including them. Meaning the dogs were registered, stud books kept, and then they will be or have been totally introduced.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The people breeding them declare them as a rare breed, so that alone tells you they're aren't many of them. How many people interested in Schutzhund are going to go out of their way to find the needle in that haystack, especially when the breeders themselves aren't even trying?


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

selzer said:


> A King Shepherd is not an AKC breed. That might not matter to you. It is no different really than all these Labradoodles and Puggles. It is a designer dog breed or a mongrel.
> 
> The thing is, AKC is not the end all be all, but it is the best we have in the states to keeping a stud book -- imperative for breeding, and trying to make a standard. Without a standard, you can have anything in the way of looks and temperament. Kind of like we have with the GSD.
> 
> ...


I've heard others refer to the King Shepherd as comparable to Labradoodles and a designer breed. 

And I've heard others say that such a characterization is inaccurate and unfair, as the King Shepherd is the result of selective breeding for a specific purpose (kind of like how the GSD originated).

As for King Shepherd not being an AKC-sanctioned breed, that really doesn't matter to me in the least bit. I've seen plenty of dogs with AKC papers, and recorded lineages, that are mediocre representations of their breed or worse. A dog's actual character, traits and abilities matter more to me than any form of paperwork or AKC pedigree.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The King Shepherd was bred to be an oversized couch potato - an easy going pet, but with the imposing look of the GSD. If you are interested in SchH and other activities, chances of finding a King that will be able to do the sport is about zero. Heck - it's hard enough to find a pure-bred GSD, even from working lines, that has the temperament, drives, and bidability to do SchH. 

If you like the look of the King Shepherd, and that is what you want, get a King. But if you are interested in SchH or other performance events, then make that the priority, and look for a breed of dog and a breeder that has a proven record in producing stable, easy-going dogs with energy and drive suited to IPO/Bite-work and other activities. 

Almost all breeders will say that their dogs can work. Reality is that unless the breeder is actively engaged in the activity they claim their dogs can do, they really have no idea what it takes and what working ability is.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dalko, also remember that you are basing your arguements on stuff you found on the net - I did a bit of googling, and I found a lot of hype and a lot of lies, and a lot of made up titles and claims in a lot of very fancy and convincing web-sites. As experienced GSD owners the people here on this board can easily spot the exagerated claims and hype, and offer their input from years of experience of owning, breeding, buying, raising, training and trialling and working with GSDs and other working dogs. 

Like I said, if you like the look of a King Shepherd, get a Kitn Shepherd. If you want a dog with working ability, then think about the information that Steve and the others are giving you - they know what they are talking about, and know the exagerated hype out ther all over the internet about all these breeders that say they are breeding working dogs when they themselves have never participated in and working venue with their dogs. 

And just so you know, some of the "Top Rated Most titled" King Shepherds out there have a bunch of made up titles - they are not AKC or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) titles, as the King is not recognized as a pure breed (so FALSE to call it a rare breed, a rare breed is actually a pure-bred dog, but just now very common).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dalko43 said:


> I've heard others refer to the King Shepherd as comparable to Labradoodles and a designer breed.
> 
> And I've heard others say that such a characterization is inaccurate and unfair, as the King Shepherd is the result of selective breeding for a specific purpose (kind of like how the GSD originated).
> 
> As for King Shepherd not being an AKC-sanctioned breed, that really doesn't matter to me in the least bit. I've seen plenty of dogs with AKC papers, and recorded lineages, that are mediocre representations of their breed or worse. A dog's actual character, traits and abilities matter more to me than any form of paperwork or AKC pedigree.


 The labradoodle was created to be a service dog with little to no shedding, and ok for people with dog allergies, not just an oversized dog that looks like a GSD buy acts like a couch potato. I think the description is apt.

German shepherd dogs were created into a breed from shepherd dogs in Germany. The founder added a little of this, and a little of that, and was very anal about breeding practices until the breed was set, and even afterwards. The first sieger was a dog he bought, not a dog he manipulated in any way. No comparison really. The dog was being used as a shepherd, and was then bred to maintain those qualities.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Dalko, also remember that you are basing your arguements on stuff you found on the net - I did a bit of googling, and I found a lot of hype and a lot of lies, and a lot of made up titles and claims in a lot of very fancy and convincing web-sites. As experienced GSD owners the people here on this board can easily spot the exagerated claims and hype, and offer their input from years of experience of owning, breeding, buying, raising, training and trialling and working with GSDs and other working dogs.


I'm not making any arguments on this subject...it seems most of the responses to my original question have focused on making arguments which highlight the negative aspects or supposed falsehoods surrounding the King Shepherd breed (or sub-breed or whatever you want to call it).

And yes, I have already admitted that my knowledge on the King Shepherd is purely anecdotal, and so it seems is yours and everyone else's since not one responding poster has claimed to have owned or worked with a King Shepherd. 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or start a debate on which is better. All I am asking for is for someone with first-hand experience to provide feedback on how the King Shepherd compares to the GSD.



Castlemaid said:


> Like I said, if you like the look of a King Shepherd, get a Kitn Shepherd. If you want a dog with working ability, then think about the information that Steve and the others are giving you - they know what they are talking about, and know the exagerated hype out ther all over the internet about all these breeders that say they are breeding working dogs when they themselves have never participated in and working venue with their dogs.


I've already acknowledged that Steve, and others, have provided some solid advice. And I readily agree that any breeder or claims to have a dog proficient in a certain activity needs to have his dogs engage in that activity in order to have any sort of credibility.

Again, I just want to know if anyone with King Shepherd experience has any points/feedback to offer on how this dog would do in certain types of activities/sports.



Castlemaid said:


> And just so you know, some of the "Top Rated Most titled" King Shepherds out there have a bunch of made up titles - they are not AKC or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) titles, as the King is not recognized as a pure breed (so FALSE to call it a rare breed, a rare breed is actually a pure-bred dog, but just now very common).


Don't care about titles. Don't care if a dog is recognized by the AKC or not; that's more bureaucratic politics than anythings else. By all accounts the pure-bred working line GSD's from Germany and Europe should be classified as a separate breed from the American show-lines, but for some reason they aren't. I really don't follow the AKC's views on this stuff and could care less how they classify breeds. I don't really care if the King Shepherd is referred to as a separate breed or just a mongrel. 

All I care about is inherent traits and character of a King Shepherd and how it stacks up to the GSD.

I've asked this question several times now, but it seems most everyone wants to give me a lecture on how the King Shepherd is an oversized couch-potato. That may be true, it might not, but I'd like to hear from some people at the ground level before I make up my mind.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, they are not GSDs. So maybe you would be better going to a King Shepherd dog forum to ask questions about their temperament, health issues, companionability, and so forth. 

The various working lines of German Shepherd Dogs, and the various show lines of German Shepherd Dogs are purebred of the same breed. But you don't care about dogs being purebred. So that doesn't matter to you. 

King Shepherds are larger than German Shepherds. And the only think that I have heard from someone who knew someone with one, was that the dog attacked her kid. Lots of sheps attack kids too, so that doesn't mean much. All it says to me, is that being a large formidable dog, in the wrong hands, it can be a real liability. And, bred by people who do not care about the genetics behind the dogs, and knowing the dogs behind the breeding stock, chances are, you are going to have some serious breeding issues. Finding a breeder who can produce stable dogs might be difficult, and dogs that are 2x the size of GSDs can be tough to handle if you do end up with one with issues. 

If you want a large dog, why not a mastiff?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just wanted to add that I have always been a fan of over sized GSDs. With that in mind when I first became aware of Kings, back then, one of the major breeds used to cross was workingline Great Pyrenees. Where the Newfoundland stuff came from, I don't know, because initially, the originators of Kings were supposed to be trying to create a breed that resembled an oversized German Shepherd with the same strong temperament. Maybe they changed their plans later to create a more docile breed, I don't know.

OP, with that said, if what you are really interested in is simply a GSD with good temperament, that is oversized, they are out there. You just need to know where and how to look for them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You're just gonna have a very difficult time getting that answer though, in regards to those dogs. They just aren't out there. Even if you do find a person that managed to do some rally or something, you won't have enough of a base to decide anything on what they are capable of.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Don't care about titles.


Just a side note Dalko, and not to argue anything, but if you're interested in Schutzhund you do care about titles. Its scores and titles that tell you what the dog does in the sport.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

If what you want is a "pet" and in general, an easy going dog that looks like a GSD but is not. Then if you find a well bred King you'll be fine. 

If your "expectations" are other than that?? Most likely you'll be disappointed. There are King owners on here and the few that speak up seem to be pretty happy with their dogs. But mostly likely they've grown weary of constantly defending their dogs on here??


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

selzer said:


> The various working lines of German Shepherd Dogs, and the various show lines of German Shepherd Dogs are purebred of the same breed. But you don't care about dogs being purebred. So that doesn't matter to you.


There are some who would argue that the geographic displacement and different breeding priorities between the European GSD's and some of the American GSD's would constitute a wide enough gap to call them 2 different breeds. I've seen examples of both; some of the AKC-recognized, American show-lines I've seen have few if any of the traits that Von Stephanitz emphasized in his initial breeding or that are currently displayed in European working lines; they seem to be more for show than anything else (kind of like your analysis of the King Shepherd).

With that said, breeding does matter to me. Which ever dog I decide to get next, I will make sure it is coming from a breeder who is ethical and is actively raising/training dogs in order to meet breed standards.

What I don't care about is AKC-registration. IMO, the AKC has forsaken much of its credibility by allowing lax breeding to and bad ethics to degrade the original pureness and purposeful selection of many breeds, the GSD included. I don't think they've done a good job of safeguarding and maintaining the GSD breed as a whole. And someone telling me that I should respect or appreciate a breed category or standard because the AKC established is totally lost on me.

I appreciate good breeding; I don't think the AKC is a good judge of what constitutes good breeding, at least not in regards to GSD's. Make sense?



selzer said:


> If you want a large dog, why not a mastiff?


If I simply wanted a large dog I probably would get a mastiff. But, as I said earlier, I want a large dog that has GSD qualities and temperament. The more I research the King Shepherd, the more I realize that its breeders were intending to do just that when they deviated from a pure-GSD bloodline. Whether or not they've succeeded is a different story.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> If what you want is a "pet" and in general, an easy going dog that looks like a GSD but is not. Then if you find a well bred King you'll be fine.
> 
> If your "expectations" are other than that?? Most likely you'll be disappointed. There are King owners on here and the few that speak up seem to be pretty happy with their dogs. *But mostly likely they've grown weary of constantly defending their dogs on here??*


That wouldn't surprise me. It seems I've gotten nothing but negative feedback from many people regarding the King Shepherd, despite the fact that most, if not all, have relatively little experience with the dog. I'm tempted to call it myopia and fanboyism, but I myself lack any experience with the dog to know whether or not the criticisms are warranted.

Do you by chance know any specific members who have experience with this breed?



Steve Strom said:


> Just a side note Dalko, and not to argue anything, but if you're interested in Schutzhund you do care about titles. Its scores and titles that tell you what the dog does in the sport.


I get what you are saying. And I should have clarified. I really don't care about purely show titles. I have a basic appreciation for what it means to get a dog titled in Schutzhund or some other trial/activity and how that is part of the breeding process for some working-lines.

Heck, if I were to find a King Shepherd breeder who was actually raising and training his dogs to compete in Schutzhund, I might have a bit more confidence about buying a dog from him or her. So far my searches haven't turned up anything....that, in and of itself, may be a partial answer to my original question.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Welcome to The Amercian King Shepherd Club Website

You might find your answers at a more appropriate site such as this.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

A great idea to check out the King Shepherd websites.I am just a pet owner, not an expert, but you should go visit some breeders and see what you think of their dogs. Years ago, I was interested in the Shiloh Shepherd, and things may look fine on paper or on the internet, but spending time with a couple of Shilohs made me decide against them. They looked like German Shepherds, but acted like goofy,happy go lucky labradors, which did not appeal to me. That is just my experience. Go spend some time with some King Shepherds.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Dalko43 said:


> It seems I've gotten nothing but negative feedback from many people regarding the King Shepherd, despite the fact that most, if not all, have relatively little experience with the dog. I'm tempted to call it myopia and fanboyism, but I myself lack any experience with the dog to know whether or not the criticisms are warranted.



Well...what did you truly expect ??? There are some serious GSD folks in this forum along with many others who have a certain affinity of the GSD breed....any derivatives would be a compromise to many in here....so take it in stride.

The one comment you made in one of your posts which hit home with me the most was something to the effect of ; at the end of the day a dog is still a dog and you will treat it all the same regardless.....this I personally like and I'm sure most others do as well but you are asking a question to people who are loyal to the breed and more importantly loyal to the breed standard and keeping it intact as they believe it should be. There's no harm or foul in your pursuit but don't be surprised if you don't get the answer you desire. 

Personally, I think one has a better defined history and expectations when they are dealing with the breed specific to this forum....any derivatives or departures from the standard are less documented historically and therefore more difficult for anyone to answer your questions to your liking.

This much I am certain of.....your efforts to research the type of dog you want is worthy of respect and will better equip you to be the best prepared for the dog you choose to have. My knee jerk reaction is....the more GSD blood in the shepherd you end up with is a good thing....

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dalko43 said:


> *There are some who would argue that the geographic displacement and different breeding priorities between the European GSD's and some of the American GSD's would constitute a wide enough gap to call them 2 different breeds.* I've seen examples of both; some of the AKC-recognized, American show-lines I've seen have few if any of the traits that Von Stephanitz emphasized in his initial breeding or that are currently displayed in European working lines; they seem to be more for show than anything else (kind of like your analysis of the King Shepherd).
> 
> With that said, breeding does matter to me. Which ever dog I decide to get next, I will make sure it is coming from a breeder who is ethical and is actively raising/training dogs in order to meet breed standards.
> 
> ...


 And they would be wrong. 

The dogs continue to be GSDs because they haven't been mixed with other breeds to make them bigger, stronger, tougher, healthier, prettier, easier, etc. 

Of course there are differences. There are differences between the various show lines in various countries, and differences in the various working lines, different countries. But they are not separate breeds.

Furthermore, we have fanciers of ALL the lines on this site. The world is big enough to have fanciers of all the lines. People who feel the need to put down some of the dogs are generally trying to cover the shortcomings of the dogs they fancy by putting other dogs down. Doesn't work though.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I personally would stick to a gsd over a king. However, a doberman guy would choose a doberman over a gsd or a king. My nephew had a king shepherd, I didn't really care for the dog. Seemed kind of big and dumb could have just been lazy more than dumb . The plus for him was like the site listed above states. 2- 15 minute walks are sufficient exercise. I glanced over that site for 5 minutes and learned plenty about the king shepherd. Although it did seem kind of biased. Maybe try a Google search of King shepherd forums. Talk to actual owners. I would imagine a lot of owners have experience with gsd also. If they're honest you'll have your answer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> That wouldn't surprise me. It seems I've gotten nothing but negative feedback from many people regarding the King Shepherd, despite the fact that most, if not all, have relatively little experience with the dog. I'm tempted to call it myopia and fanboyism, but I myself lack any experience with the dog to know whether or not the criticisms are warranted.
> 
> Do you by chance know any specific members who have experience with this breed?


LOL, no not of the top of my head?? Give me a few days and I may be able to dig them up. It's going to be in the big and little threads, Over Size GSD threads, when those happen "some" on here will start to lower the King Shepards, weight until they hit OS WL GSD, (116 for mine) 

And then I/We get ticked off because our dogs most definitely do "not" have a King Shepard Temperament! (not that there is anything wrong with that. ) But anyone expecting (King Shepard) Temperament from them ...would have been in some very deep waters!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> That wouldn't surprise me. It seems I've gotten nothing but negative feedback from many people regarding the King Shepherd, despite the fact that most, if not all, have relatively little experience with the dog. I'm tempted to call it myopia and fanboyism, but I myself lack any experience with the dog to know whether or not the criticisms are warranted.
> 
> Question to you Dalko - It seems you are a relatively new member here. I went back this morning and looked at your most recent posts. You seem to be giving lots of advise to posters at the advanced GSD trainer level to many and registering obvious frustration and disdain at some poster questions.....
> 
> From your previous posts and those today - there seems to be a wide difference in your apparent experience with the GSD breed and some of the very basic questions you have now - but, they seem to be oriented not so much "Ok - thanks for all your posts and opinions and move on..... Mr Obvious would have something to say here........ Almost got where you are coming from - give me another day "old friend"......


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> A great idea to check out the King Shepherd websites.I am just a pet owner, not an expert, but you should go visit some breeders and see what you think of their dogs. Years ago, I was interested in the Shiloh Shepherd, and things may look fine on paper or on the internet, but spending time with a couple of Shilohs made me decide against them. They looked like German Shepherds, but acted like goofy,happy go lucky labradors, which did not appeal to me. That is just my experience. Go spend some time with some King Shepherds.


Yes ... the Shilohs! On an episode of "Bad Dogs" lot of Boxers on that show.  

There was a show that featured a Shiloh and I kid you not if the owners spoke "harshly" to the dog. The dog would turn around go up the stairs to the bathroom and slam the door! 

It was hysterical, well for those of us watching. I do believe they had two Shilos and the first was training the other to do the same. That dog had other "issues" also did not like walking over certain surfaces and other "irk" some issues? Pretty sure "aggression" was not one of them?? Doubt she was even a potential fear biter?? 

I was pretty stunned! Anyway I'm sure they are not all like that but yeah not a GSD or a King Shepard!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

developed from crossing German Shepherd Dog with Newfoundland[1] as well as Shiloh Shepherd and long-coated European lines of German Shepherd in the 1990s. So definitely some LGD bloodlines in there, but also some pure-bred American and European lines.

Where is the LGD?


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

selzer said:


> And they would be wrong.
> 
> The dogs continue to be GSDs because they haven't been mixed with other breeds to make them bigger, stronger, tougher, healthier, prettier, easier, etc.
> 
> ...


You do realize that certain breeds, like the English Mastiff and the Spannish Mastiff, started off from the same breed, but due to different focuses and geographic locations, they evolved into separate breeds.

I think we're arguing about opinion and not fact. The AKC has its view on the matter, as do I, but I wouldn't be surprised if in 10-20 years time they deemed there was enough of a difference between the European and American versions of the GSD to classify them as different breeds.

As for putting a particular line or dog down; I'm not doing that. I'm saying there has been lax breeding standards on AKC's part that has caused the GSD breed as a whole to become somewhat watered down.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Question to you Dalko - It seems you are a relatively new member here. I went back this morning and looked at your most recent posts. You seem to be giving lots of advise to posters at the advanced GSD trainer level to many and registering obvious frustration and disdain at some poster questions.....
> 
> From your previous posts and those today - there seems to be a wide difference in your apparent experience with the GSD breed and some of the very basic questions you have now - but, they seem to be oriented not so much "Ok - thanks for all your posts and opinions and move on..... Mr Obvious would have something to say here........ Almost got where you are coming from - give me another day "old friend"......


I actually have quite a bit of experience with the GSD, both as personal owner and I've seen them in action in a working military environment. All of my questions have been geared towards the King Shepherd, which I have freely admitted to have zero experience with.

As for my attitude not being passive enough for your liking, I think a lot of the posters on here have been relying on purely anecdotal evidence when they call the King Shepherd an over-sized GSD couch-potato. Those descriptions may turn out to be more accurate than not, but so far no one on here has been able to bring up first-hand experience regarding the dog. Given that this is GSD-focused forum and that the King Shepherd is relatively rare, I guess that is to expected. 

It doesn't really bother me if you are skeptical of my background. I use this forum every so often to read up on other people's experiences and to relay my own experiences. I'm not trying to win anyone's favor or respect.



Sabis mom said:


> developed from crossing German Shepherd Dog with Newfoundland[1] as well as Shiloh Shepherd and long-coated European lines of German Shepherd in the 1990s. So definitely some LGD bloodlines in there, but also some pure-bred American and European lines.
> 
> Where is the LGD?


Newfoundland Lab has Mastiff and I believe some Great Pyrenees in its ancestry. As well the King Shepherd itself, according to wikipedia (again not the best source) supposedly had some Great Pyrenees in its initial breeding:



> Two American dog breeders Shelly Watts-Cross, and David Turkheimer created this large breed from the Shiloh Shepherd (American and European German Shepherd Dogs[4] and Alaskan Malamutes), additional American-bred German Shepherd Dogs and the Great Pyrenees. An organized dog breed club was started in 1995.


I have no idea if those descriptions are accurate or not, I'm just stating what the sites are saying. Perhaps someone with more experience with the King Shepherd can chime in on that.


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## CanineKarma (Jan 5, 2016)

Is the King and Shiloh the same breed?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have zero experience with King Shepherds but I do have experience with the breed that created the King. 

Newfies/Great Pyrs - love these dogs but they are never going to take a bite
Mastiff - They might but this is not what they are bred for so you would have a hard time turning the aggression on and getting them to work in prey.

None of these breeds are bred for hunt drive.

I'm not what attracts you to the King but if it's the size, all I can say is bigger is not better. It is rare to see an oversized dog of any breed in IPO. They need to fast and agile. 

I think what you really need to do is do the research on the breeds that make up the King. Decide what you really want. If it's IPO, get a GSD. If you want the dog first, sport second then get the breed you want.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CanineKarma said:


> Is the King and Shiloh the same breed?


No
Welcome to The Amercian King Shepherd Club Website


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I have zero experience with King Shepherds but I do have experience with the breed that created the King.
> 
> Newfies/Great Pyrs - love these dogs but they are never going to take a bite
> Mastiff - They might but this is not what they are bred for so you would have a hard time turning the aggression on and getting them to work in prey.
> ...



Good points. 

I have been researching the Great Pyrenees, Newfoundland, and LGD-style dog in general and at a glance, it certainly seems that those dogs were bred for a purpose that was different from that of the GSD.

I like the idea of a bigger dog, but I certainly have a much greater appreciation for the traditional GSD temperament. 

I think there is a King Shepherd breeder that I might be able to visit later this spring. I'll probably stop by and check out some of the dogs in person so that I can verify the research I've done so far.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I have zero experience with King Shepherds but I do have experience with the breed that created the King.
> *
> Newfies/Great Pyrs - love these dogs but they are never going to take a bite*
> Mastiff - They might but this is not what they are bred for so you would have a hard time turning the aggression on and getting them to work in prey.
> ...


Like so many other breeds, Great Pyrenees have two lines, one for show and one for work and the working line can be rather aggressive.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

CanineKarma said:


> Is the King and Shiloh the same breed?


LOL, I know just enough about both to say "not even."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Like so many other breeds, Great Pyrenees have two lines, one for show and one for work and the working line can be rather aggressive.


True. They are herding dogs that are meant to be left alone and independent with a flock or herd. 

But my point holds true...research the breeds in the mix.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:

Hehehe what she/me, er he said. 





Steve Strom said:


> The first thing I'd think about is where are you going to find one that's capable of being anything except big? If you want a dog for something specific, I think you need to find someone doing that with their dogs, not just telling you they can. If they aren't doing it, they don't know what it takes and they don't know if their dogs can.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Heck, if I were to find a King Shepherd breeder who was actually raising and training his dogs to compete in Schutzhund, I might have a bit more confidence about buying a dog from him or her. So far my searches haven't turned up anything....that, in and of itself, may be a partial answer to my original question.


Hey Dalko, did you look at the website Jax posted? If you've been around dogs in different settings, I know you mentioned rescue and some military dogs, that will show you why answers from experienced with the breed people isn't as valuable as you would think.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

King Shepherd and Shiloh Shepherd are different breeds from the GSD.

They're larger dogs with a soft temperament.

If you want a big cuddly dog, that may be what you're looking for but don't confuse them with a GSD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> True. They are herding dogs that are meant to be left alone and independent with a flock or herd.
> 
> But my point holds true...research the breeds in the mix.


I am very familiar with the breeds in the mix. I am also very familiar with the original major breed (workingline Great Pyrenees) added to the mix as well as the original intention, as previously stated. This was a breed that I followed as I was very interested in as it was being developed.

Where or when Newfoundlands were added, I don't know. Why the breed is now being touted as originating with Newfoundland mixes, I don't know. Maybe the original information from years ago was inaccurate. I am just stating in its infantile stages, Newfs were not recorded as being part of the mix as the intention was to retain the GSD temperament, not water it down. 

This doesn't make everything I stated gospel, it just is saying that is not how the original history was presented in the beginning of the breed. I don't know what the truth is.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am very familiar with the breeds in the mix. I am also very familiar with the original major breed (workingline Great Pyrenees) added to the mix as well as the original intention, as previously stated. This was a breed that I followed as I was very interested in as it was being developed.
> 
> Where or when Newfoundlands were added, I don't know. Why the breed is now being touted as originating with Newfoundland mixes, I don't know. Maybe the original information from years ago was inaccurate. I am just stating in its infantile stages, Newfs were not recorded as being part of the mix as the intention was to retain the GSD temperament, not water it down.
> 
> This doesn't make everything I stated gospel, it just is saying that is not how the original history was presented in the beginning of the breed. I don't know what the truth is.


I have no idea why are you responding in this manner or what your point is? I only agreed with you on G.P.s in general and then stated my point of researching the breeds mixed in for the OP. There wasn't really anything to argue about or discuss.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

"Newfoundland Lab has Mastiff and I believe some Great Pyrenees in its ancestry. As well the King Shepherd itself, according to wikipedia (again not the best source) supposedly had some Great Pyrenees in its initial breeding:"

The Newfoundland dog is not an LGD.

Although no history of their development is recorded, it is most likely that they where the result of breeding the dogs the Vikings brought over and local dogs. The breed was first noted in the late 1700's and is one of very few breeds that are Canadian breeds. They are not labs either.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> *Great Pyrs - love these dogs but they are never going to take a bite*


My point was that workingline Great Pyreness will take a bite.



Jax08 said:


> True. They are herding dogs that are meant to be left alone and independent with a flock or herd.
> 
> But my point holds true...research the breeds in the mix.


I disagree with your point about workingline Great Pyrenees in the mix, which were an instrumental cross in creating the King Shepherd. They are not a docile dog.



Jax08 said:


> I have no idea why are you responding in this manner or what your point is? I only agreed with you on G.P.s in general and then stated my point of researching the breeds mixed in for the OP. There wasn't really anything to argue about or discuss.


Responding in what manner? 

I am certainly not arguing, but since we are both talking about King Shepherds and that is the topic of discussion, I would think that there is something to discuss.

My point, contrary to yours, is that a GSD bred to a WL GP, should not be a difficult dog to get to bite, as that was what the original cross was intended to do in creating the breed, maintain the GSD temperament while increasing size.

No arguing, no attitude, just the facts.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, in the second quote you posted above, I agreed with you that there are working line, serious, GP's . You are continuing to bring up the point you disagreed with (in the first quote that was posted before the second quote) and that I already said you were correct on, and then you state that your point, which I agreed to in the second quote, is contrary to yours, but....

...you aren't arguing.

LOL. OK! I give!!! We'll have to agree to disagree about agreeing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the confusion comes in with the possible addition or more docile breeds into the mix. 

Either way, agree to agree, or agree to disagree, as long as there is no argument.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Either way, agree to agree, or agree to disagree, as long as there is no argument.



As long as we can agree to disagree without anyone getting their panties twisted and needing to disagree about agreeing to disagree.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wait a minute, once my panties are twisted how am I supposed to be anything but disagreeable?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are genetically sound there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to recover quickly for a little panty twisting and maintain a pleasant attitude. If not, perhaps more socialization and positive reinforcement would help. I here Lowe's is a great place for that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Or neutering.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

True! But my husband is always happy at Lowe's. No matter how twisted his panties were when we went in.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a little Tim Allen in all of us.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lol

TOOLS!!!!


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> The Newfoundland dog is not an LGD.
> 
> Although no history of their development is recorded, it is most likely that they where the result of breeding the dogs the Vikings brought over and local dogs. The breed was first noted in the late 1700's and is one of very few breeds that are Canadian breeds. They are not labs either.


I'm not claiming to be a Newfoundland expert, but the breed history that I've read has stated pretty clearly that Newfoundlands came from St. Bernards and mastiffs, Great Pyrenees and other mountain dog and LGD breeds. So the breed itself may not be LGD, but it sounds to me that's where it originated from...this seems to be an argument over semantics more than anything else.

I've heard that part about how they were introduced to North America by the Vikings. But that seems to be more folklore than anything else. The Vikings visited North America for a very short time and any dogs they brought would've likely died off or gone feral when they left the continent.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Dalko, did you look at the website Jax posted? If you've been around dogs in different settings, I know you mentioned rescue and some military dogs, that will show you why answers from experienced with the breed people isn't as valuable as you would think.


I had already checked out that website (it was one of the first ones to pop up during my searches). The site lists some pretty explicit rules on breeding and the requirements for having dog registered as an official "King Shepherd." 

Other than that, I didn't see any indication of the dogs being involved in working activities (K9, Schutzhund, IPO, personal protection, ect.). It did mention that some of their dogs serve as therapy dogs.

I'll probably visit a breeder in person when the weather warms up to see what the dogs are like.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am very familiar with the breeds in the mix. I am also very familiar with the original major breed (workingline Great Pyrenees) added to the mix as well as the original intention, as previously stated. This was a breed that I followed as I was very interested in as it was being developed.
> 
> Where or when Newfoundlands were added, I don't know. Why the breed is now being touted as originating with Newfoundland mixes, I don't know. Maybe the original information from years ago was inaccurate. I am just stating in its infantile stages, Newfs were not recorded as being part of the mix as the intention was to retain the GSD temperament, not water it down.
> 
> This doesn't make everything I stated gospel, it just is saying that is not how the original history was presented in the beginning of the breed. I don't know what the truth is.


The intro of the wikipedia article I referenced for my initial search mentioned Newfoundland's (they didn't say lab though):



> The King Shepherd is a dog breed developed from crossing German Shepherd Dog with Newfoundland[1] as well as Shiloh Shepherd and long-coated European lines of German Shepherd in the 1990s


As I've continued to research the breed, I haven't seen that mentioned on other sites. So that may have been bad info on Wikipedia that I passed along. Like I said, I'm not at all familiar with the breed and am purely relying on what I can find online.

I am genuinely interested in hearing your take on the KS though, since you say that you had interest in them early on.

1) What was the goal of the original breeder? Were they trying to make a larger GSD with a GSD temperament? Were their certain traits they were trying to emphasize over others?

2) Why did they choose the Great Pyrenees for breeding? That's a Live-stock-guardian dog right? Don't those types of dogs have a slightly different focus and drive from a GSD? I had always heard that GSD's had much more energy and more of a prey-drive while LGD's were somewhat low-energy but still very protective and vigilant (hence why they're used to guard livestock).

3) Did you ever consider getting one?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> 2) Why did they choose the Great Pyrenees for breeding? That's a Live-stock-guardian dog right? Don't those types of dogs have a slightly different focus and drive from a GSD? I had always heard that GSD's had much more energy and more of a prey-drive while LGD's were somewhat low-energy but still very protective and vigilant (hence why they're used to guard livestock).


I'll take that one. The Great Pyrenees don't herd sheet, they hang out with them and guard them "Guardian Breed" they would look like a sheep from a distance (and not running around and acting crazy helps with that) but if a predator comes knocking ... surprise! 

And as to the why of the Newfies and the Great Pyrenees, in my understanding. It was for size and then they breed to GSD's for the "look." After a few generations you get a dog that "looks" like a GSD. 

I understand something similar was done to get a "Black Boxer." Blk lab's were used in those lines sometime back?? As Boxers don't carry the gene for Black. But again back bred to Boxer's after a few generations they "look" the same. 

Boxer "Breeders" are not amused!


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

We've gotten off track here.

If you like a super-sized dog that looks like a GSD, a King Shepherd would be a good fit.

Just remember it isn't a GSD, period.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Michelle, GPs are not herding dogs. They are flock guardians. Different animal. Usually a GP would be used with a pyrean shepherd by shepherds. They Pyrean, is too small to tackle the protection aspect and the GP is just simply not a herding dog. But together they can do the job. Our breed was developed to do both. 

I knew a nasty GP that would definitely bite. My guess is that the show people weren't unhappy to mellow them out a bit, because these are outdoor dogs, not much of what endears us to dogs as companion animals.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/crystal.emsoff/videos/10204064754938988/?__mref=message_bubble


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hey MAWL - did you see the news story a few weeks ago about the G.P. that is left on an island to protect an endangered animal? I've been looking for the article for hours.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> hey MAWL - did you see the news story a few weeks ago about the G.P. that is left on an island to protect an endangered animal? I've been looking for the article for hours.


Can't say I have, please post a link if you find it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It was fascinating. Endangered species on an island. Handlers took the dogs out there and dropped them off for weeks to protect the species. For the first time in decades the population increased. I can't remember if it was birds or turtles though


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wrong breed. Maremma Sheepdog. Same idea though
Maremma Sheepdogs keep watch over Little Penguins | The Bark

Dog guards the flock/herd independent of people.

Which to me, raises the next question. Our GSDs are bred to work WITH people. Guardian breeds are bred to work independent. They don't need us to be there. A dog making their own decisions would be a hot mess in IPO.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> I'm not claiming to be a Newfoundland expert, but the breed history that I've read has stated pretty clearly that Newfoundlands came from St. Bernards and mastiffs, Great Pyrenees and other mountain dog and LGD breeds. So the breed itself may not be LGD, but it sounds to me that's where it originated from...this seems to be an argument over semantics more than anything else.
> 
> I've heard that part about how they were introduced to North America by the Vikings. But that seems to be more folklore than anything else. The Vikings visited North America for a very short time and any dogs they brought would've likely died off or gone feral when they left the continent.


 I don't mean to keep on about this but I can tell you with certainty that Newfs are NOT LGD's! Never were, not at all. They are water dogs. Last I checked sheep don't swim much. Not bred from Pyr's, not bred from St Bernards, there may have been some mastiff way back, but those aren't LGD's either. Again, history says they are likely descended from the dogs the Vikings brought and whatever local dogs were indigenous in Newfoundland. You do get that there were people here then right? And I sincerely doubt the Vikings left quickly since their ruins are still all over the place. Since the Brits fell in love with a well established breed in the late 1700's logic dictates that they had been around for a while. You do understand that this breed was developed HERE, right? In this country, in the province of Newfoundland specifically. By the time they left to go elsewhere they were well established.
As far as King shepherds? I have met a few, they failed to impress. Reminded me of a sleepy, big GSD. Can't imagine one of the ones I met working. If memory serves two that belonged to neighbors came from a kennel in New York somewhere, another I believe came from Maine.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Seems to be as much agreement on here as everywhere else in regards to the king shepherd. I went to multiple sights. All seemed to have different ideas on what the king shepherds are about. Some want to sell them as working dogs good drive, high exercise demands Others as a laid back family companion low drive, low exercise need. Maybe the mixture of the different breeds are too new to have a definite temperament. One thing they all believe or say is that they are a rare breed. But by their standards so is my gsd golden retriever cross. Who knew. I always just said he's a Shepherd retriever mutt. Now I can say he's a rare breed shepherd retriever mix.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't mean to keep on about this but I can tell you with certainty that Newfs are NOT LGD's! Never were, not at all. They are water dogs. Last I checked sheep don't swim much. Not bred from Pyr's, not bred from St Bernards, there may have been some mastiff way back, but those aren't LGD's either.


The sources I've read said that Newfs did come from Great Pyrenees and various mastiff breeds (both of which are considered to be traditional LGD breeds).

Newfoundland Dog Breed Information and Pictures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_(dog)

I realize that my sources may not be the best, so if you have some that are better, by all means provide them. The Newf may have been purposely bred into a water-focused dog, but it does have LGD in its roots.




Sabis mom said:


> Again, h*istory says they are likely descended from the dogs the Vikings *brought and whatever local dogs were indigenous in Newfoundland. You do get that there were people here then right? And I sincerely doubt the Vikings left quickly since their ruins are still all over the place. Since the Brits fell in love with a well established breed in the late 1700's logic dictates that they had been around for a while.


You really need to provide some sources for this one. I've heard that claim about the Vikings introducing the dog as well, but without direct proof it's speculation at best.

The Vikings were in fact in North America for a relatively short period of time; the archaeological finds prove that. The Vikings may have visited North America over a span of 300-400 years, but most of their settlements were temporary camps/forts and mostly aimed at extracting resources rather than colonizing North America. 




Sabis mom said:


> You do understand that this breed was developed HERE, right? In this country, in the province of Newfoundland specifically. By the time they left to go elsewhere they were well established.


I know where the Newf was developed. What is not so apparent is how it was developed and by whom, since there seems to be very little historical records of the breed's origins.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

From a history of the breed, Newfoundland Dog Club of Canada.

_No matter what the origin, English settlers on the island of Newfoundland were impressed with the native dogs' great size and strength, their natural swimming ability and their gentle dispositions. Traders brought the dogs back to England where they were bred with the large estate dogs. The breed* was first given its name about 1775*. At first the breed evolved by natural selection and later by selective breeding. In the mid 19th century, the white and black Newfoundland became very popular as a result of a painting by Sir Edwin Landseer and these white and black newfs took their name from him._


_Great Pyrenees were introduced in America by __General Lafayette__* in 1824.*_

The timelines do not add up. Newfs were an established breed before 1775, in Newfoundland. Pyrs would have had no way to be involved. While there is evidence that early French settlers arriving in the 1600,s brought *mountain dogs* with them, there is also evidence that by that time the Newfs were relatively established. Further there was a ban imposed in 1780 on owning more then one Newf *to promote the raising of sheep on Newfoundland. *Indicating they were anything but an LGD. It was this ban that drove the breed nearly to the brink of disaster

FYI, the STONE ruins of Viking settlements found in Newfoundland suggest permanent villages, not camps.
Why am I arguing with Americans about Canadian history??????


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Link to Newfoundland Dog Club of America
Newfoundland Club of America Roger Powell Columns- Origins

Long article about the dogs history.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Why am I arguing with Americans about Canadian history??????


Bored?


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Again, are people looking for a working dog? Get a GSD.

Do they want a big dog with a friendly temperament that's a cuddly family pet and couch potato? Get a Shiloh Shepherd/King Shepherd.

There's no one breed of dog right for every one.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Bored?


 Mostly, and my temperament resembles that of a female dog most days


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> From a history of the breed, Newfoundland Dog Club of Canada.
> 
> _No matter what the origin, English settlers on the island of Newfoundland were impressed with the native dogs' great size and strength, their natural swimming ability and their gentle dispositions. Traders brought the dogs back to England where they were bred with the large estate dogs. The breed* was first given its name about 1775*. At first the breed evolved by natural selection and later by selective breeding. In the mid 19th century, the white and black Newfoundland became very popular as a result of a painting by Sir Edwin Landseer and these white and black newfs took their name from him._
> 
> ...


That's great and all, but it seems there are other club sites and sources which have a slightly different take on the breed's origins.

Also, I think you and I are arguing over assumptions at this point. There really is no way to prove, with 100% certainty, when and where the newf came from. It's not like the breeders back then were taking and cataloging DNA samples of the different breeds...in fact, I don't think breeding back then was nearly as precise and scientific as it is now. A lot of it seems to be based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

And FYI, even if the Newf doesn't have Greaty Pyrenees in its heritage, it does have mastiff, which was traditionally considered a guard dog and/or LGD, and in fact certain types of mastiffs are still used as LGD's to this day.




Sabis mom said:


> FYI, the STONE ruins of Viking settlements found in Newfoundland suggest permanent villages, not camps.
> Why am I arguing with Americans about Canadian history??????


A) Stone buildings does not mean they were intended to be permanent.

B) The Viking settlements obviously weren't permanent, otherwise there would have been Norse peoples, and perhaps even a nation, located in North America.

C) The archaeological evidence shows that many of the Viking settlements were short in duration likely due to a number of reasons: hostility with the local Native Americans; long resupply/reinforcement from Greenland and Europe; limited sources for plunder and income.

All that aside, you still have provided no proof that the Vikings introduced the dog which eventually turned into the Newf.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> And FYI, even if the Newf doesn't have Greaty Pyrenees in its heritage, it does have mastiff, which was traditionally considered a guard dog and/or LGD, and in fact certain types of mastiffs are still used as LGD's to this day


You are confusing mastiffs with molossers. All mastiffs are molossers but not all molossers are mastiffs. To further confuse things not all dog breed names converted to english with "mastiff" in the title are actual mastiffs either. No mastiffs today are used as LSGs. Different drives in mastiffs and LSG. I actually know of a few "working mastiffs" doing their age old job of boar hunting. Thats not something a newfie or a LSG would do, But I digress.

Newfies may have molosser heritage but they do not have the guarding instincts that come along with the LSG, and mastiff type molossers. At all. I spent many hours with them. They are not civil dogs. I knew two that wouldn't even give a warning bark of approaching strangers. The part of the breed standard regarding temperament? "Sweetness of temperament is the hallmark of the newfoundland; this is the most important single characteristic of the breed" that is the temperament section in its entirety. They are not guard dogs in any sense of the term regardless of what their heritage was. 

Irish wolfhounds have molossers in their heritage too. Mastiff type molossers. Even fairly recently. But they are 100% sighthound in terms of behavior and temperament. Not guard dogs in any sense either.

So yeah. If newfie was used for King shepherds, I'd put stock into the claims of their soft temperament.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> You are confusing mastiffs with molossers. All mastiffs are molossers but not all molossers are mastiffs. To further confuse things not all dog breed names converted to english with "mastiff" in the title are actual mastiffs either.* No mastiffs today are used as LSGs.* Different drives in mastiffs and LSG. I actually know of a few "working mastiffs" doing their age old job of boar hunting. Thats not something a newfie or a LSG would do, But I digress.


So Persian Mastiffs, Spanish Mastiffs, and Pyrenean Mastiffs don't count as *mastiffs*?

It seems those breeds were traditionally used as livestock guardians (and some still are today).


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anytime you buy a dog that isn't recognized by a major registry or one that doesn't have an active and involved parent club, you really need to do your homework. 

Anyone can put together different breeds of dogs to try and develop a new breed but most don't have the knowledge or support needed to do it successfully over the long haul. I guess what I'm saying is there are other important things to consider besides what breeds were used to develop the dog. (or where THOSE dogs came from)

A quick look at the King Shepherd in the OFFA data base (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) shows records for 57 King Shepherds. Those records only include 8 elbow reports and 22 for hips. Keep in mind the records go back to 1997. The rest of the reports are for DM and there was 1 record for eyes. 19 years and only 22 dogs have been tested for HD? This breed comes primarily from GSD's, testing hips and elbows should be the minimum people expect from a breeder. You have to wonder why this isn't being done.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> So Persian Mastiffs, Spanish Mastiffs, and Pyrenean Mastiffs don't count as mastiffs? It seems those breeds were traditionally used as livestock guardians (and some still are today)


Exactly. They are not mastiffs. They are LSGs. 

Mastiffs (English mastiff, bullmastiff, napoleon mastiff, etc) were bred for a very different use then LSG. Used as war dogs, hunting and for blood sports. Then for the most part they became house pets. 

It's a language barrier issue. There are no native English LSGs. Wolves were hunted to extinction in the British Isles by the 16th century. There was no need for a live stock guardian dog there and therefore no english term. So when the names are translated some non mastiff molosser dogs get the mastiff name tacked on as a description of size and overall body shape. Like the Tibetan Mastiff.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Like I said all mastiffs are molossers but not all molossers are mastiffs. 

In regards to the newfoundland - the safest bet is to say that local dogs were bred with some sort of European molosser. It's such an old breed itself the best we can say is it is a mix of two or more landraces.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Like I said all mastiffs are molossers but not all molossers are mastiffs.


LOL, cut me off at the knees with that one! I'm good.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> LOL, cut me off at the knees with that one! I'm good


He hehe I try  

I have been up for 26 hours though. So "try" is very subjective right now.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Like I said all mastiffs are molossers but not all molossers are mastiffs.
> 
> In regards to the newfoundland - the safest bet is to say that local dogs were bred with some sort of European molosser. It's such an old breed itself the best we can say is it is a mix of two or more landraces.


 :thumbup:

Just ticks me off. I grew up in Nova Scotia, not far from the origin kennel of the Tollers. I get Americans telling me all the time that they are this, that or the other and that they are a new breed. Not! Same with the Newfs, been around forever. They are a part of Maritime history, a beloved one.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Exactly. They are not mastiffs. They are LSGs.
> 
> Mastiffs (English mastiff, bullmastiff, napoleon mastiff, etc) were bred for a very different use then LSG. Used as war dogs, hunting and for blood sports. Then for the most part they became house pets.
> 
> It's a language barrier issue. There are no native English LSGs. Wolves were hunted to extinction in the British Isles by the 16th century. There was no need for a live stock guardian dog there and therefore no english term. So when the names are translated some non mastiff molosser dogs get the mastiff name tacked on as a description of size and overall body shape. Like the Tibetan Mastiff.


My comment was meant to convey skepticism more than anything else. How do you know the Persian Mastiff, and Spannish and Pyrenean types aren't actual mastiffs? It seems to me that a lot of these large breed dogs (especially the Indo-European ones) are all distantly related (more so than other breeds) and descended from the prototypical dog that was used in ancient times to hunt, dog-fight, go to war and guard livestock.



Sabis mom said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Just ticks me off. I grew up in Nova Scotia, not far from the origin kennel of the Tollers. I get Americans telling me all the time that they are this, that or the other and that they are a new breed. Not! Same with the Newfs, been around forever. They are a part of Maritime history, a beloved one.


No. I'm not telling you what the Newfoundland definitively is and isn't. I'm saying that your claims about how the Newfoundland came about is far from verified. Certainly your viking claim needs a lot of supporting evidence before anyone can give it an ounce of credibility. 

And FYI, here is yet another site that talks about the Newf possibly having LGD's (specifically Great Pyrenees and Tibetan Mastiff) in its ancestry:
Newfoundland : Dog Breed Selector : Animal Planet

There are obviously differing opinions and accounts of how/where this dog came from.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Just ticks me off. I grew up in Nova Scotia, not far from the origin kennel of the Tollers. I get Americans telling me all the time that they are this, that or the other and that they are a new breed. Not! Same with the Newfs, been around forever. They are a part of Maritime history, a beloved one.


 If I ever got a breed other than a GSD, it would be the Novia Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. (Hope I spelled that right.) Neat dogs.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> My comment was meant to convey skepticism more than anything else. How do you know the Persian Mastiff, and Spannish and Pyrenean types aren't actual mastiffs? It seems to me that a lot of these large breed dogs (especially the Indo-European ones) are all distantly related (more so than other breeds) and descended from the prototypical dog that was used in ancient times to hunt, dog-fight, go to war and guard livestock


How do i know they arent actual Mastiffs?they don't have the same original purpose or history as mastiffs.

Also if you actually research the breeds, you find out a lot. The Spanish Mastiff, Pyrenean mastiff, and Great Pyrenees are all from the same landrace of livestock guardian dogs. They separated in 1659 due to changing political boundaries caused by the Treaty of Pyrenees.

The English name of the breed does not always match up with what the dog actually is. A Tibetan Spaniel is not a Spaniel -they'd make a sorry gun dog. A Boston terrier is not a terrier. They aren't going to be expert ratters. 

In most dog circles Mastiff refers to the English mastiff and it's ilk. Which are very different in temperament and drive then LSGs. Molosser is the all encompassing term for the large heavy dogs. Like retriever refers to goldens, labs, flaties, curlies, and chessies. While gun dog includes all of the retrievers, spaniels, pointers, etc. 

Most dogs today have a common ancestory somewhere. I'm not saying that mastiffs and LSGs didn't. They are both molossers after all. BUT whatever common ancestor they shared they split from each other long before their specialised uses became apparent. This proto dog you are talking about didn't exisit. Hunting and guarding livestock are two specialised uses that have conflicting drives. A hunting dog needs to have prey drive. And that is the LAST thing you want in a livestock guardian dog. They need to have strong pack drive and defensive drive. Specialized uses. Specialized dogs. And that has been going on a loooong time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> If I ever got a breed other than a GSD, it would be the Novia Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. (Hope I spelled that right.) Neat dogs.


 If you want solid information google Little River Duck Dogs. Awesome dogs. Fair warning, there are very few kennels breeding decent ones. If I wanted one I would go to the source. And warn any and all neighbors about the Toller scream, lol.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> *In most dog circles Mastiff refers to the English mastiff and it's ilk*. Which are very different in temperament and drive then LSGs. Molosser is the all encompassing term for the large heavy dogs. Like retriever refers to goldens, labs, flaties, curlies, and chessies. While gun dog includes all of the retrievers, spaniels, pointers, etc.
> 
> Most dogs today have a common ancestory somewhere. I'm not saying that mastiffs and LSGs didn't. They are both molossers after all. BUT whatever common ancestor they shared they split from each other long before their specialised uses became apparent.


I realize we are way OT at this point, but I think while the "mastiff" label may apply exclusively to the English Mastiff nowadays, it is generally acknowledged that many Molosser type, European LGD's share a very common ancestry with the English variant, to the point where it is accurate to call them "mastiff" type dogs.



> All of the massive mountain dogs of Spain, France, Turkey, and the Balkans can trace their size back to Mastiff blood in their ancestry.


That comes from the Mastiff Club of America's website (RETURN HOME)

It's an argument over semantics at this point. The AKC and other breeding groups may not refer to certain LGD's as true mastiffs, but there is no denying that is where those breeds came from.




voodoolamb said:


> This proto dog you are talking about didn't exisit. Hunting and guarding livestock are two specialised uses that have conflicting drives. A hunting dog needs to have prey drive. And that is the LAST thing you want in a livestock guardian dog. They need to have strong pack drive and defensive drive. Specialized uses. Specialized dogs. And that has been going on a loooong time.


I think you're trying to transpose today's complex understanding of dog breeds to a much simpler time. I find it hard to believe that celtic tribes and even more advanced societies (Romans, Greeks) were this nuanced when it came to developing a large-type dog for purpose A and another large-type dog for purpose B and another for C.

All the ancient texts I have read (and I've read a few) make mention of a large dog (of the Molosser/mastiff type) that was used for many different applications across the European and Asian continents (livestock protection included). In fact, it seems as last as the early Rennaissance era, there was no real distinction between a mastiff and molosser. The individual, purpose-driven breeds, as we know them today, likely came about as the prototypical large dog became separated and evolved differently due to climate, geography and employment. 

As for prey drive inhibiting a dog's ability to protect livestock, yes and no. GSD's and other working dogs known for their prey drive can, and still are used, to protect livestock. It's not the optimal breed, but if you socialize them early on, they can learn to accept the livestock as part of their "pack." These aren't wolves after all, they're domesticated dogs and they are more capable of understanding an owner's intent. It's not unreasonable to think that ancient and medieval societies/groups couldn't have trained their mastiff/molosser dogs to be able to hunt big game and chase enemies in battle while still being friendly/protective of the livestock and such.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Did you continue looking into King Shepherds Dalko?


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Did you continue looking into King Shepherds Dalko?


I'm planning on visiting a King Shepherd breeder in my state later on this spring. 

Other than that, I haven't turned up much online which discusses the KS's working ability and pedigree.

I think at this point I need to see the dog, and breeder, in person to determine whether or not the dog is what I am looking for.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, I think that's the best plan with every breed.


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