# The current state of the GSD



## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

I hope this is in the right place as I wrestled with myself a little bit about where to put it. 

Everyone knows that the GSD is a split breed. We have the severe American show-line shepherds, the crazy drivey working shepherds, and everything in between that. Despite the unbelievable amount of type in this breed, there is a clear standard available to us about what a proper GSD should be. Not everyone agrees wholeheartedly on this but there are some basic, important things we can certainly agree on such as the amazing versatility of the GSD and sound hip structure. 

What sparked me to post this is that one of my best friends has had German Shepherds for the past few years now, usually two at a time. She is a foster home for the Seeing Eye program where you raise a pup for a certain period of time and then send it back to the school for formal training. She's raised 6 or 7 dogs now. These dogs have a Labrador personality and I don't think that is acceptable at all for this breed. Of course our breed should be able to work in as many venues as possible, but do we have to sacrifice the entire breed and split them to be able to embrace that versatility? 

I am not looking to offend anyone here, but rather share opinions on the subject. I realize this can be a very heated topic, so please stay civil. I have an open mind and am able to see any other side of the discussion if someone is willing to present it. 

So, what is the ideal GSD in your mind? How do you feel about the split of the breed? What should the "true" GSD be able to do? What should it not be able to do?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is not a phenomenon exclusive to GSD . It happens in any breed, from bird dogs , to sled dogs. "Bred for Perfection" Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800: Amazon.ca: Margaret E. Derry: Books
is a scholarly look at public registry and breed selection priorities.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Here's a recent thread... enjoy! Lots of opinions there.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/172012-warning-sign.html


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Don't worry folks I'm not going on a dissertation on this. I'll just say that the primary reason for breeding GS today is what people want to do with them, or what they think the breed should be to them....and it is no longer about what the breed is; accepting that for what it should be. No more, no less. People's likes, egos, and emotions; about something that was already established before they got involved. JMO


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Temperament / a sound dog is my top priority, with it, everything else falls into place, without it, well no dog is perfect


> The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very _serious faults_ and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be _disqualified._ The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


_from the GSDCA standard_


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well just from the OP, you say they have a "labrador personality" what is that exactly? That breed can go from your well behaved service dog to the hyper, over active hunting dog. A GSD should be the perfect service dog, just read the description from the GSDCA, it sounds like a great service dog to me. I think sometimes people get too caught up in the protection work that a GSD can do and forget that you can channel those same drives into other work. I went to a herding instinct test with my dog and a lady sitting next to me saw my GSD and said, "Oh, a German Shepherd, I didn't realize they were herding dogs" (She had a border collie).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have come to believe it is difficult to find A GSD to suit me these days. I have lovely dogs. People are often trying to ger me to give one of them up to them. They are intelligent, trainable and companionable. For these reasons, I think I sound like a humbug regarding the breed. But, there is something missing too much of the time for me. A certain quality.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

She didn't think a German SHEP*HERD* was a herding dog.
Now THAT's funny!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh yeah, I resisted the urge to spell it out for her, but the next guy over couldn't! It was quite funny.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Vicky said:


> So, what is the ideal GSD in your mind? How do you feel about the split of the breed? What should the "true" GSD be able to do? What should it not be able to do?


In my opinion (and to those who disagree, remember it is just that... Mine)

In my opinion the GSD should be either what the Working Line Shepherd is or going back to what the breed was before the split. There is variation in what WL shepherds are like, from crazy over-the-top faux-linois to middle of the road pet family WL shepherds. Their body type has not been so distorted by show ring extremes.

In my estimation the Showline Shepherds show us that Max was right. The breed should always be bred from utility not form. And before anyone gets bent out of shape, Abbie my female is likely from a majority SL stock (atleast she looks very AmSL), and I have been training her with a local SchH club. She is doing okay, so I know they can... But I can still see the differences between her and the WL pups her age.

Again, just my opinion...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> you say they have a "labrador personality" what is that exactly?


I was curious about that as well. There's a huge difference in English (old-style) Labs and "field bred" or "bench bred" Labs. 



> She didn't think a German SHEPHERD was a herding dog.
> Now THAT's funny!


To me it is funny, yet sad, as well. I think everyone who wants a dog ought to get on AKC and go through their "find your best match" program or whatever it's called. There would be far fewer dogs in shelters or purchased on a whim, or because it's "cute".
We get hounds turned over to rescue for baying, Shelties for barking, herding breeds because they are "so energetic, and need a farm" (yeah right...farmers already have their own dogs!) and Dachshunds for wanting to eat that furry badger...err...cat...in the front room...or, heaven forbid, digging...

I'd say, as someone else did, there's not a breed left untouched by humans and their desires to take a breed they like the looks of, and turn it into something completely different personality/drive-wise. The throw-backs (more true to what it was originally used for) wind up in rescues, or in shelters on death row.

And breeders, rescues and shelters do these animals a disservice if they aren't explaining fully what these dogs are all about. For instance, a gal adopted a Dachshund a few days ago, I met her in Walmart and ended up giving her the _basics_ of the breed. Back injury 101, and the typical Dachshund personality, standards vs. minis, and even "do they always bark at everything that moves??" Yes. :forehead smack: What rescue didn't explain all this to them!?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSD guide dogs are not like labs. They are selected from a group that is lower on suspicion , not reactive. They do become protective of their charges --- temperament has to be rock solid - good judgement . I have had 5 dogs certify , one , a male , who became too large for the need (but not the breed) became a public relations dog and one of my females was ear marked as brood material. Not to long ago one of my males had sperm taken for another guide group. I have looked at pedigrees . Of particular interest to both the east and west coast guide dog programmes was DDR Bodo Grafental .

the institute I was involved with decided , with a change of management, to try labs, labradoodles ? because they had a "friendlier face" , the image and reputation of what the gsd had become made it difficult for the handlers , less approachable.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Carmen, that was what we learned too, when working with Gig Harbor women's prison. They train dogs to be service dogs and when we got dogs from the shelter, their preference was Golden Retrievers, and after that, Labs dogs that don't "look scary".
They told us they'd love to use GSDs but that public perception of that breed was a problem.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Thank you for posting that thread. It was a long one, but I read through all of it and it was great to see such different opinions. Very helpful.

Let me say I am not trying to put seeing eye dogs or service dogs in a negative light. It is absolutely wonderful that there are German Shepherds out there helping people in need. It is fantastic that they can be trained to do such. I was commenting on their personality only because it is different from that which the standard calls for. When I say labrador personality, I mean anyone can walk up to these dogs, pet them, tackle them, play with them, and they will lick you to death, wag their tails, etc. There is no suspicion whatsoever in these dogs. I have not met any other seeing eye dogs other than the ones my friend has owned. I am not making assumptions on all their dogs or their breeding program as I know nothing about it.

My point is, is it helping the breed to be breeding so far off the standard? Is this what helped cause the split or is it just the show line, working line debacle? I am not trying to be a standard snob and saying that these dogs should not be bred at all. Just me speculating what is causing a further split in temperament in a breed that already has a huge variety of differences. I understand almost every breed sees this split, but this is a GSD forum and therefore, I want to discuss this breed. Thanks everyone who has posted thus far!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I was commenting on their personality only because it is different from that which the standard calls for. When I say labrador personality, I mean anyone can walk up to these dogs, pet them, tackle them, play with them, and they will lick you to death, wag their tails, etc. There is no suspicion whatsoever in these dogs 

That is not so. I also know a breeding program of labs , that are English working genetics , which go into cancer detection, narcotic - and specialized police work detection and in for guide dogs. 

Guide dogs are focused , intense on the job . Not wimpy dishrags 
-


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

I never called them "wimpy dishrags". Please don't put words in my mouth. I explained myself clearly and am not bashing these dogs. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.


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## RaidersMom (Mar 29, 2011)

Vicky said:


> When I say labrador personality, I mean anyone can walk up to these dogs, pet them, tackle them, play with them, and they will lick you to death, wag their tails, etc.


Uh oh.... I'm in trouble then. That's Raider! :crazy:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am trying to determine what is outside of the standard of the gsd ? The dogs are supremely confident and under self control. They have blinkers on and are so focused . A dog that is distracted by friendly attention should be canned . That is a hazard.
One of my contacts who is a serious herder doing forest management using sheep to graze says the biggest problem they face is people who park their car and try to befriend the dogs at work - doesn't happen and I am sure , that those dogs would be canned. Another problem is same type of people who will open door to a dog in car so that they can go and play -- meanwhile no play! the herding dog chases them off -.

here is a pedigree of a dog that contributed as a sire to guide dogs http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=119705

this dogs brother http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=549132

working lines -- it is a matter of selection 

Carmen


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

You're not in trouble, lol. Just a discussion about what's going on and what people think about it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think you just have a very so to say "popular" perception of what the standard of a labrador should be. That breed is just as split as the GSD is. I have seen labs and goldens attack at a dog park more often than any other breed. Also, you wrote that anyone should be able to come up to a lab and play with it, I think the same is true for a GSD, a friendly, non harmful person, should be able to come up to my dog and pet and play with him (as long as I say its ok).

I'm not trying to bash you, but you don't have a GSD yet, and I really respect the research you are doing before you get one. But the reason you have your opinions on the GSD standard is because of this forum and the research you have done. If you put just as much time into a lab forum you might see that their personalities are just as varied as a GSD. Sure they have a soft mouth and don't bite with as much force, but it is still enough force to get you to listen. A few months ago someone posted a video of a Schutzhund trained Golden Retriever! Is it natural? No, but why is Schutzhund natural to a GSD?

I think you should look more into the "standard" for the personality of a GSD, aloof doesn't mean it hates other people, it means the dog should just not care, and not want to meet every living thing. This is exactly what is looked for when you are training a service dog, they shouldn't be friendly, but they should also never be aggressive. No where in the standard does it call for aggressiveness, maybe suspicion, but when it comes to suspicion, a well balanced/nerved GSD will read the situation quickly and not attack unless it is warranted. Those that do react aggressively, are not the dogs I want to own.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Personally, I think the GSD should be a VERSATILE dog. Meaning that the ideal GSD could be a herding dog, a family companion, a police dog, SAR dog, service dog, etc. and that the same litter could produce candidates for all of these endeavors. I believe form should follow function, so I am not a big fan of extreme show type. I believe that *temperament* makes the GSD what it is; that and physical health should be the top priority. That's not to say there shouldn't be a physical standard as well, but as soon as breeders start putting looks and sidegait over health and temperament, that is no longer the ideal GSD.

I have to say, I'm not a big fan of extreme "sport" type either, a dog that cannot cap its own drive, or is easily overstimulated, or overly reactive, or low-threshold. I am not saying all sport dogs are like this but I'm sure everyone has seen this type of individual. If a dog excels at sport but cannot settle in the house and be a manageable and trustworthy companion or family dog, that to me is not an ideal GSD either. There are plenty that excel at sport and also live in the house as part of the family, and I think those are the dogs that ought to be carrying on the GSD name.

And since we were talking about a GSD being "approachable" in another thread, I do think a GSD should be safe in the general public and around strangers that the owner invites onto the property. They certainly don't have to fawn all over welcome visitors, but they shouldn't bite them either. Aloof is the key word, I think, a proper GSD should not really give two poops about a non-threatening stranger.

Just my opinion of course, I'm far from a breed expert.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Carmen,
I notice some Vom Kirschental in the guide dog's sire pedigree. Are those lines considered working or show?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freesteps got "it" . The problem with the breed is people who no longer what the breed was, is and should be. Versatile . Utility. Confident , self sure temperament , biddable , healthy , hardy, balanced in mind and body , ready to go and ready to stop.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

They are working . This is the old Kirschental going back to valuable heritage herding lines .
The modern kirschental is show . The HGH is trial / sport type. 

Notice the SchH3 's and police titles . BlackJack's dam, is dripping in working service dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Vicky said:


> When I say labrador personality, I mean anyone can walk up to these dogs, pet them, tackle them, play with them, and they will lick you to death, wag their tails, etc. There is no suspicion whatsoever in these dogs.


You really don't know if there is suspicion or not, because you've probably never seen these dogs in a situation where the owner was threatened. The very same dog who licks the friendly stranger may warn a would-be thief in no uncertain terms not to come closer.

It seems to me a dog, even a GSD, who can tolerate strangers petting, poking, hugging, etc. is a very tolerant dog who has good discernment. Of course some dogs will react with licking and tail wagging and others will just sigh and patiently endure the attentions of well-meaning strangers, but a guide/service dog must be safe in these situations. Confidence, self-assured temperament, Lower suspicion, high thresholds, focus, and discernment are good qualities for a service dog and a GSD with this temperament should be well suited for the task.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Whitby , my end of town has quite a few raisers , and end users . About two years ago when it was icy a gentleman using a black lab (from the Quebec guide agency) took a spill dropped his shopping bag and obviously had hurt his knee. People rushed to help him up, myself included having come out of the coffee shop right where he had his accident. Even the black lab gave an indication that he was being protective of his charge . His expression changed . When people slowed down and the man could assess the situation and direct the dog , then, they could help him up by the arm and get his bag back to them. The dog keyed in to his handler .
This man often is in the coffee shop , dog under table . 
Some raisers do better jobs than others. I see some where I think they themselves are using the pups as an invitation for conversation and attention. I see some labs that are just too silly -- I doubt they end up successful - far too much the social butterfly , focus is not there. 
Carmen


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Personally, I think the GSD should be a VERSATILE dog. Meaning that the ideal GSD could be a herding dog, a family companion, a police dog, SAR dog, service dog, etc. and that the same litter could produce candidates for all of these endeavors. I believe form should follow function, so I am not a big fan of extreme show type. I believe that *temperament* makes the GSD what it is; that and physical health should be the top priority. That's not to say there shouldn't be a physical standard as well, but as soon as breeders start putting looks and sidegait over health and temperament, that is no longer the ideal GSD.
> 
> I have to say, I'm not a big fan of extreme "sport" type either, a dog that cannot cap its own drive, or is easily overstimulated, or overly reactive, or low-threshold. I am not saying all sport dogs are like this but I'm sure everyone has seen this type of individual. If a dog excels at sport but cannot settle in the house and be a manageable and trustworthy companion or family dog, that to me is not an ideal GSD either. There are plenty that excel at sport and also live in the house as part of the family, and I think those are the dogs that ought to be carrying on the GSD name.
> 
> ...


You share the same opinion as I do. A GSD is a utilitarian dog. Can handle multiple jobs. It isn't meant to be bred for one specific service. Sport breeding, show breeding, etc. is doing no favors to the breed. 

I'm having problems finding dogs to bring into my breeding program that fit all of my criteria. I think I got kind of spoiled by my first two breeding potential dogs. My male coming from older lines that focus on working ability as well as structure. My female coming from lines that are known for still containing the strong working ability. To be honest I have a hard time even considering them West German Working lines because to me it just puts this unnecessary bias on them. People immediately assume they are weak nerved and can't handle things. 
After spending a lot of time with working lines from vastly different lines, I've found my dogs compare easily to the balanced drive dogs of working lines. They obviously don't compare to the sport dogs because those dogs are bred with a tunnel vision idea.

Temperament is HUGE to me. I don't care how lovely a dog looks, if the dog has a shot temperament its not breeding worthy. That's one thing I've observed with some breeders. They use training to cover up their dogs flaws and holes in temperament. But you aren't breeding that dogs training into its puppies, you are breeding that dogs core. And if that dogs core is pudding then its going to produce pudding. Why would you want to spend so much effort into training a dog to act confident, when you can just breed the confidence and temperament into a dog and not have to spend so much extra time on that dog. 

It is people who have breeding programs like ^that^ that ruin the breed. 

It shouldn't be so hard to find genuine dogs and genuine breeders.. :crazy:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

4TheDawgies said:


> You share the same opinion as I do. A GSD is a utilitarian dog. Can handle multiple jobs. It isn't meant to be bred for one specific service. Sport breeding, show breeding, etc. is doing no favors to the breed.
> 
> I'm having problems finding dogs to bring into my breeding program that fit all of my criteria. I think I got kind of spoiled by my first two breeding potential dogs. My male coming from older lines that focus on working ability as well as structure. My female coming from lines that are known for still containing the strong working ability. To be honest I have a hard time even considering them West German Working lines because to me it just puts this unnecessary bias on them. People immediately assume they are weak nerved and can't handle things.
> After spending a lot of time with working lines from vastly different lines, I've found my dogs compare easily to the balanced drive dogs of working lines. They obviously don't compare to the sport dogs because those dogs are bred with a tunnel vision idea.
> ...


Very well said!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

4thedawgies I am curious to know what lines you were working with that you liked " I think I got kind of spoiled by my first two breeding potential dogs. My male coming from older lines that focus on working ability as well as structure. My female coming from lines that are known for still containing the strong working ability. "

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> 4thedawgies I am curious to know what lines you were working with that you liked " I think I got kind of spoiled by my first two breeding potential dogs. My male coming from older lines that focus on working ability as well as structure. My female coming from lines that are known for still containing the strong working ability. "
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


My male is from Gelben Ruhl lines on his Sires side <( I love those lines and what they've produced) 

My female is from Holtkaemper See lines on her Dams side 


I attribute both of those lines in my dogs pedigrees to a large portion of their working ability.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

I appreciate everyone posting. Thank you!

I think you're reading too far into the labrador comment. Can we focus on the GSD please? I'm not trying to make assumptions, but Labradors are not bred to have any protective instinct. That is my point. They are typically very friendly dogs, and I've owned one. She loved anyone and everyone. They were bred to have a soft mouth to retrieve, therefore not the same as a GSD. A dog with a soft mouth can't do protection work or police work involving bitework. They need to have fight in them to hold on and reduce the threat, no? I know I am not experienced but I think this is pretty easy knowledge to interpret even without experience. 

I agree that the GSD is known for being versatile. I absolutely agree. It is one of their best features. It's wonderful that they can do all of the things you guys have listed. Not many breeds can. However, if we're talking about the standard of this breed and what they were intended to be, they were not supposed to be dogs that were overly friendly. I believe something in the American standard states something about not lending himself to indiscriminate friendships? I don't think any dog should just go after people he is not familiar with by any means. Ignoring them or indifference is appropriate. I know someone who posted mentioned that and I agree wholeheartedly. 

I know I don't own the breed, but I am forming opinions regardless. I have met plenty of German Shepherds and it isn't difficult to discern between the dogs that can actually work and be versatile and the ones "with blinders on" who can only do perform in one area because breeding for that one aspect has reduced the traits required to perform in other areas. It's upsetting that people can't agree on the standard that was set by the man who created this breed.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I currently own a lab and he is very protective of me. Growls something terrible if a stranger approaches me and went as far as chasing a guy who jumped onto my neighbors car to avoid being bitten. The breed standard is one thing but with all the different types of breeders around in the United States I am not sure the breed standard accurately defines the majority of many breeds around here anymore, and I am not just referring to the GSD.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Samba said:


> I have come to believe it is difficult to find A GSD to suit me these days. I have lovely dogs. People are often trying to ger me to give one of them up to them. They are intelligent, trainable and companionable. For these reasons, I think I sound like a humbug regarding the breed. But, there is something missing too much of the time for me. A certain quality.


You haven't met Karlo!! :wub:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You will never achieve the standard when you're talking about the second most popular breed in the united states. People don't use the dog for what it was meant to be used for anymore. Dogs are pets now, they aren't working dogs. I'm not willing to get into the discussion of if you aren't going to work it get a different breed because when it comes to property you can't tell people what not to get. They have cash, they want a dog, they get the one they want. Due to this breeders started making their dogs to what the market wanted. And so now we have a very very broad range of GSD.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Vicky said:


> A dog with a soft mouth can't do protection work or police work involving bitework.


What makes you think this? Just because a dog uses a "soft mouth" on birds doesn't mean he can't bite dang hard when he wants to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

One of the most protective dogs in my possession (as a foster) was a Chocolate Lab x Chessie mix. He would not let anyone in my yard if I was not there. By anyone, I mean my landlord's (adult) son who'd been recently released from prison. 
My GSD went on to bite the same when the idiot stuck his hand through our fence to see if our dog would bite


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Chessies can be quite aggressive. Out of all the bird dogs, they are the most protective and will not hesitate to tell an intruder where to go!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well all 100lbs. of this beast was behind that bark and the guy sat on the fence until I called him inside


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Like Cliff said their are people who breed for their own likes or dislikes or for certain type of buyers likes or dislikes. (Hope that's fairly accurate Cliff.) 

There are designer dogs now and I believe there are designer GSD's. that have very little in common with the standard other than their general looks.

The second aspect is owners. 
I've read numerous threads involing fearful GSD's. The more I read those threads the more I realized that the owners in many cases don't respect and train the dog they have. They have a GSD regardless of the breeding. 
They aren't peekapoos or anything like that. They need to respect you and you them.
If a person is afraid of them, or afraid for them they will pick up on it and there will be problems.
If the dog is a genetic nerve bag and the owner is also filled with some level of fear then it's a double whammy.
I've said it before and so I know someone will get irritated but they are not Barbie Dolls and should not be treated like one.
So to me the bad rap the breed gets is from not well thought out breeding and people owning them that probably shouldn't.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Personally, I think the GSD should be a VERSATILE dog. Meaning that the ideal GSD could be a herding dog, a family companion, a police dog, SAR dog, service dog, etc. and that the same litter could produce candidates for all of these endeavors. I believe form should follow function, so I am not a big fan of extreme show type. I believe that *temperament* makes the GSD what it is; that and physical health should be the top priority. That's not to say there shouldn't be a physical standard as well, but as soon as breeders start putting looks and sidegait over health and temperament, that is no longer the ideal GSD.
> 
> I have to say, I'm not a big fan of extreme "sport" type either, a dog that cannot cap its own drive, or is easily overstimulated, or overly reactive, or low-threshold. I am not saying all sport dogs are like this but I'm sure everyone has seen this type of individual. If a dog excels at sport but cannot settle in the house and be a manageable and trustworthy companion or family dog, that to me is not an ideal GSD either. There are plenty that excel at sport and also live in the house as part of the family, and I think those are the dogs that ought to be carrying on the GSD name.
> 
> ...


A week ago I could never have imagined saying this, but I agree 100% with what Freestep wrote.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> What makes you think this? Just because a dog uses a "soft mouth" on birds doesn't mean he can't bite dang hard when he wants to.


For sure... I've said it here before, but the meanest nastiest most dangerous dog I've ever known was a yellow lab. He lived next door to where my wife (GF at the time) lived with her mother. He was a monster and would bite without provocation. He had that true deep threatening bark and growl. There was no play, no uncertainty... That growl meant I would come get you if I could.

He bit atleast 2 people that I know of, but they never reported it...


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok, there are always exceptions to the rule but as a whole Labradors are not generally protective or aloof. Can we agree on that? 

As far as the soft mouth, it depends on the dog I'm sure. Everyone will attempt and prove me wrong and that's absolutely fine. I just thinks it goes against what the breed was bred for. I would see it as very confusing for a dog to be asked to carry things softly and with care and then take a full, hard bite in a different circumstance. Too much room for error unless it is a very, very experienced trainer. But who would really want to?

I also agree with never achieving the old standard because the dogs aren't used for their original purpose anymore. Unfortunately, as much as I hate to admit it, I already know that we're never going to see what these dogs used to be. There is always going to be the different types and that's the truth for all breeds. It's just fun and a learning experience to hear everyone's side of the story and see what people think about it. Does anyone have any insight as to what the future will hold? A further split? Perhaps some sort of improvement for both/all types? Acceptance of the split instead of attempting to push all the types back into one?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I respectively disagree that gsd's aren't used for their original purpose anymore. Many many working dogs out there.

And call me naive, but I still believe there are many many good breeders out there producing dogs that CAN do it all if they choose, the thing is, most people don't "want" to do it all, they pick a specific thing they are interested in or the dog is good at and go with that. 

I don't see the "split" ever correcting itself anytime to soon. BUT, while some may not agree, that split provides a wide variety of types , one that may be good for you but not for me.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I have to agree that in some cases this is true but there are good breeders who try to maintain the breed standard. My case in point is the breeder I recently got my puppy from. She works very hard to place them properly with the right people and she maintains the breed standard to the highest degree. In other words, she cares. There are probably this argument going on with every breed of dog.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Jakoda, I agree as well. There ARE good breeders out there, it's just not everyone agrees on what the GSD should be. 

Do you think the split is beneficial then? I'm not trying to trap you or anything, just curious. I can see the benefits to the breed being split, I just find it a disrespect I guess that the breed has been bred down so much. And that thinking applies to any breed as well, but as people already said, not everyone needs a dog to do what these dogs used to do. That's understandable. I think if that were the case, GSDs might only be in serious working venues and might never see a pet/companion home.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> I just find it a disrespect I guess that the breed has been bred down so much.


What do you consider being "bred down"? Guide Dogs are purpose bred -- bred for a particular job. There was a problem several years ago with blind people with dogs being mugged. Health issues in the GSD made guid dog schools move even more to the retriever breeds until the safety of their clients was in trouble. They see the GSD as a deterent to muggings, but they don't want a dog that would protedt their handlr from help if needed from medical or police. So they breed a less suspicious dog. A suspicious dog may have difficulty concentrating on the job at hand while in a crowd.Would you rather they not use German Shepherds?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Vicky said:


> Jakoda, I agree as well. There ARE good breeders out there, it's just not everyone agrees on what the GSD should be.
> 
> Do you think the split is beneficial then? I'm not trying to trap you or anything, just curious. I can see the benefits to the breed being split, I just find it a disrespect I guess that the breed has been bred down so much. And that thinking applies to any breed as well, but as people already said, not everyone needs a dog to do what these dogs used to do. That's understandable. I think if that were the case, GSDs might only be in serious working venues and might never see a pet/companion home.


I do not think the split is beneficial. All it does is cater temporarily to the selfish agendas of humans. However it does absolutely no favors to the breed. A dog bred for extreme over angulation cannot handle the type of work required for a utilitarian dog duties. Some of those dogs can't even make it over a jump. 
then on the opposite end these working lines who cannot settle in a house. I've seen it myself, people readily admitting they have to keep the dog outside in a kennel because the dog drives them nuts. 

What part of either of those is in anyway enjoyable to have let alone in any way utilitarian?!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm not sure what you are looking for here. I have a 5 yr. old working line GSD and a almost 15 week old working line puppy. The older one does agility and that's about it. We don't have very many venues of any kind near or I might do something else with him or his baby sister.
They are from different breeders but based on their pedigrees either should be able to do anything asked of them.
The 5 yr. old is not crazy drivey. He has the drives but he is perfectly happy as a family companion. Calm laid back and great nerve. His sister is too young to know what's up yet. She's not afraid of anything but she is at the terrorist stage wanting to chew on everything in sight. In other words a puppy.
Why would I not want these dogs just because they are not out in a field herding sheep or working for the PD.
Most dogs of all breeds are not doing what they were originally bred for.
Back to labs for a moment. I have known many and including myself who have owned Labs. I met one owner who actually hunted.
Where I live we are overloaded with Aussies and Border Collies. Most of them are used to hold down the tool boxes in the back of trucks.
I like GSD's and am happy with them. If they get to screwed up I'm going to get a *Bassett Hound*.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Andaka, breeding down meaning breeding the dog for absolutely no purpose (in my opinion). For example, The extremely angulated show lines. They are shown in CONFORMATION for pete's sake. Proper conformation is supposed to make a dog agile, sound, and able to perform well. When all you do is breed for a ridiculous flying trot, that's wrong to me. 

No I don't think it's wrong for them to use GSDs as guide dogs. Not even close. But it is an example of a different "type" in the breed right now. Thank you for providing information on the suspicion thing. I didn't know that.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Working line versus Show line versus pet. As long as there is a demand for each type-it will never end. I accept this, it saves me a great deal of stress to just embrace the differences. Things will never be what they used to be. I have never seen an ugly GSD from any line though-they are all still gorgeous.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This puppy is between 7 and 10 months in all these pics. Tracking...service, protection work, working with sheep, and friend of a little boy. I maintain you can breed versatile dogs that can do it all and it doen't have to be one at the expense of the other. JMO


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Germanshepehrdlova, that is a respectable opinion as well. You're right. There is now always going to be a demand for the different types, so I don't see it really ending. 

Cliffson, I love your outlook and I embrace it myself. That is the definition of versatility.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Working line versus Show line versus pet. As long as there is a demand for each type-it will never end. I accept this, it saves me a great deal of stress to just embrace the differences. Things will never be what they used to be. I have never seen an ugly GSD from any line though-they are all still gorgeous.


True, but at some point they are only the same breed in name only...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Vicky said:


> I would see it as very confusing for a dog to be asked to carry things softly and with care and then take a full, hard bite in a different circumstance.


That is actually the most natural thing in the world for a dog to do. This is not something you have to train for, it is instinct and learning from other dogs (and people, to some extent). Think about it--a mother wolf, when moving her cubs, picks them up in her mouth and carries them for a distance. She must be very gentle so as not to hurt her pup, but firm enough that it doesn't fall from her grip. The same wolf will use a full, hard death grip on the leg of a moose the next day, and use all the strength in her neck and jaw to rip flesh and crush bones.

Likewise, a GSD pup will learn bite inhibition from socializing and playing with other pups. Ever wonder how dogs can tear a toy to shreds and leave stuffing all over the place, yet don't leave each other torn and bloody after they play with one another? Dogs live by their mouths, so it's natural for them to learn how to properly use their mouths.

They know the difference, and know how to gauge their own jaw pressure to fit each circumstance. Some dogs are bred to have a naturally "soft mouth", which means they have a genetic tendency to use less pressure when they hold something, as well as thick, soft lips that tend to cushion. But that doesn't mean they *can't* or don't know how to use more pressure if the situation warrants it. Have you ever played tug-of-war with a Lab?

Regarding the split in the GSD...

I don't see it as beneficial. Some breeders are truly aiming for the "Golden Middle", breeding only the show dogs that are outstanding in the work, or breeding only v-rated working dogs. But I think those are definitely in the minority. I think form should follow function, so I tend to agree with the v-rated working dog approach with regard to creating the "Golden Middle". I personally don't like the look of the show lines currently, either American or German: I don't see where the standard says "roach back" or "extreme angulation" for our GSD, I want to see the body of a dog that can actually WORK. 

If that means the breed needs to shift back to a more moderate physical conformation, that may upset some show people and the hard work of generations of breeding to produce an extreme type that wins in the conformation ring. People's attitudes have to change, judges' attitudes have to change, breeders' attitudes have to change. It is going to take a long time, if indeed it ever happens, that the dogs winning in conformation have a consistenly outstanding temperament, soundness in heath, and a moderate conformation with no trace of roach back or sickle hocks.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Freestep said:


> That is actually the most natural thing in the world for a dog to do. This is not something you have to train for, it is instinct and learning from other dogs (and people, to some extent). Think about it--a mother wolf, when moving her cubs, picks them up in her mouth and carries them for a distance. She must be very gentle so as not to hurt her pup, but firm enough that it doesn't fall from her grip. The same wolf will use a full, hard death grip on the leg of a moose the next day, and use all the strength in her neck and jaw to rip flesh and crush bones.
> 
> They know the difference, and know how to gauge their own jaw pressure to fit each circumstance. Some dogs are bred to have a naturally "soft mouth", which means they have a genetic tendency to use less pressure when they hold something, as well as thick, soft lips that tend to cushion. But that doesn't mean they *can't* or don't know how to use more pressure if the situation warrants it. Have you ever played tug-of-war with a Lab?


I agree with this. The AKC Breed Standard for labradors states that they are to have powerful jaws. When my lab and GSD tug-of-war the lab puts up a good fight even though he is outweighed by about 40 lbs. Sometimes he even drags my GSD.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

br870 said:


> true, but at some point they are only the same breed in name only...


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Freestep said:


> That is actually the most natural thing in the world for a dog to do. This is not something you have to train for, it is instinct and learning from other dogs (and people, to some extent). Think about it--a mother wolf, when moving her cubs, picks them up in her mouth and carries them for a distance. She must be very gentle so as not to hurt her pup, but firm enough that it doesn't fall from her grip. The same wolf will use a full, hard death grip on the leg of a moose the next day, and use all the strength in her neck and jaw to rip flesh and crush bones.
> 
> Likewise, a GSD pup will learn bite inhibition from socializing and playing with other pups. Ever wonder how dogs can tear a toy to shreds and leave stuffing all over the place, yet don't leave each other torn and bloody after they play with one another? Dogs live by their mouths, so it's natural for them to learn how to properly use their mouths.
> 
> ...


Very, very good point. That does help put things into perspective.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> For example, The extremely angulated show lines. They are shown in CONFORMATION for pete's sake.


And what is wrong with showing in conformation? Many show dogs also do performance activities such as herding, obedince, agility, rally, etc.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> This puppy is between 7 and 10 months in all these pics. Tracking...service, protection work, working with sheep, and friend of a little boy. I maintain you can breed versatile dogs that can do it all and it doen't have to be one at the expense of the other. JMO


Heck Cliff, That's just because you are an amazing person breeding amazing dogs. Your kind of GSD is the kind I would want to have.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You began with "She is a foster home for the Seeing Eye program ............... These dogs have a Labrador personality and I don't think that is acceptable at all for this breed."

That is the whole point . No they do not . And the service that they provide is wonderfully acceptable for the breed. The GSD was the first dog used (in modern times) officially in the capacity of a guide dog . 

still missing the point "I was commenting on their personality only because it is different from that which the standard calls for."

No it is what the standard calls for . In the beginning dogs were used for messenger dogs , ambulance dogs, Search dogs to find the injured. The guide dog movement began using German shepherds began post WW 1 when you had so many young men blinded by the first chemical warfare, mustard gas. That was a long time ago . Those dogs were just the dogs of the day put in to use. 

" When I say labrador personality, I mean anyone can walk up to these dogs, pet them, tackle them, play with them, and they will lick you to death, wag their tails, etc. There is no suspicion whatsoever in these dogs."
You shouldn't tackle them or any dog that is not yours, this is social pressure and dogs have a personal zone that should be respected . A dog that is that goofy should be rejected for this job with this much responsibility.

"My point is, is it helping the breed to be breeding so far off the standard?"

Agree with Andaka who asked What do you consider being "bred down"? Guide Dogs are purpose bred -- bred for a particular job. 

It is the BREED which must be kept versatile. 

" Is this what helped cause the split or is it just the show line, working line debacle? "

The split happened in the late 60's early 70's when you had to brothers in charge of the SV - Martins . They promoted and campaigned Canto Wienerau , Wienerau and Arminius kennels . 

"I am not trying to be a standard snob and saying that these dogs should not be bred at all."

Sorry not following you on this , who should not be bred at all? GSD that are capable of guide work?

The current state is that anyone and everyone can breed the GSD and the dog as long as it has 4 legs , prick ears , and what is perceived as the classic colour black and tan - can be and is sold . That is what is wrong . No prior experience required, no being mentored , no education - fist full of bucks , buy a male , buy a female - voila .

There is another split --and I would say that this is a specialized sport dog for trail and competition . So three show - american/german - working - sport .

As far as the "mouth" . When my son was still in public school I did a bring a parent to school visit. I brought along my female Chella and I did obedience demonstrations . I hot-dogged it , hey why not , the dog was awesome . One of the tricks I did on the stage was to take an egg and roll it on the floor , ask the dog to fetch it up and deliver , she did --- totally unscathed. Then I took a empty glass hand cream bottle and skidded it across the floor. She fetched it up and brought it back - had perfect grip , which had to be hard mouth to hold it . Then I slid the egg across the floor again -- the dog had to have a sense of how to adjust the grip - . Then to prove that the egg was real and was raw I cracked the shell and let the raw egg drop onto a pie tin that I brought along, which the dog lapped up happily. Labs control their mouth -- they don't require strained food to eat because they have a soft mouth --- they can crunch a chicken carcass just as well as a GSD . It is a self control thing.

I am helping someone locate a good poodle and the issues are the same in this breed -- a working breed in origin, very bright , versatile -- but virtues all but lost in most because of the same breeding issues, popularity , and show - or pet without any consideration as to purpose or temperament . Have a look Dark Red, Silver, White, Blue Hunting Poodles
or 
Although we had owned or trained many breeds, we had never 
considered owning a Standard Poodle because of the look of the froo 
froo show dog. Most of the show-bred Standard Poodles we met were
_extremely fine boned_ with_ narrow pointed_ faces. We preferred the 
sturdy, athletic breeds that were commonly being used as working dogs.

When we saw our first *stocky* poodle we were impressed with the 
lean muscles on the athletic frame. This dog also did not have the 
pompoms! His coat was short and his build stocky yet still athletic.

The Standard Poodle _was originally_ bred for use as a *hunting dog*
much like the Labrador Retriever still is used today. We were 
disappointed to discover that most breeders were only interested in 
breeding 'show dogs' and had no interest in the Poodle as wrking, 
hunting or any type of athletic sporting dog.

We believe the Standard Poodle should be structurally and mentally 
able to perform the tasks it was originally bred to do!

The philosophy Paris Poodles breeds by:
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But Performance indicates what the animal actually is.

With this breeding program in mind we created
*Paris Poodles*
Our dogs are simply curly coated DOGS! 
They are NOT Froo Froo dogs!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can't delete pictures --- so if moderators can delete all but the last picture please 

found another poodle site where they admit the dog is afraid of water


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Vicky said:


> No I don't think it's wrong for them to use GSDs as guide dogs. Not even close. But it is an example of a *different "type"* in the breed right now.


GSD's started being used as Seeing Eye dogs back in early part of the 1900's, it's definitely not something new.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Freestep said:


> What makes you think this? Just because a dog uses a "soft mouth" on birds doesn't mean he can't bite dang hard when he wants to.


Have you seen a lab do protection work? I have personally, with one of the worlds best trainers for an extended period. Labs are breed to have a soft mouth, just like a GSD is bred to have a full grip. You can't fight the genetics. Well bred labs make poor protection dogs, end of story... I saw an awesome lab, who even had too hard of a mouth for a lab, but just couldn't do the protection work. Awesome at all the other aspects of schutzhund. Phenomenal tracking, demonstrated scent discrimination, awesome guard with nice defense in it, nice bark, very fast and hard hitting... but the grip was trash.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Andaka said:


> And what is wrong with showing in conformation? Many show dogs also do performance activities such as herding, obedince, agility, rally, etc.


Nothing is wrong with showing in conformation. But the fact that there are dogs with such extreme hip angulation that don't even walk normally that are winning in conformation defeats the purpose! Conformation is a good thing, but it seems to be losing its actual purpose.

My original comment equating a Labrador personality to the GSD was not in good taste and I apologize. Hence why I made this thread, to learn. To change my opinions and become more informed. It makes sense that these dogs lack the suspicion or sharpness seen in working line dogs. It makes a LOT of sense. I guess it's just hard to agree that this kind of split is a good thing. I have a hard time seeing the guide dogs being able to perform police work. Is that bad? Is it wrong? Honestly, I can't say yes because of the great service they are doing for people in need. 

"I am not trying to be a standard snob and saying that these dogs should not be bred at all."
This comment was me saying that I am not trying to stick my nose in the air and be a snob. I don't want to sound like I live and breath by the GSD standard as far as the dogs go. The latter part of that comment wasn't me literally saying certain dogs shouldn't be bred. I was implying that I wasn't implying that. Does that make sense? Lol, I feel like that is terribly confusing.

I think the example Andaka provided changed my viewpoint on the mouth thing.

If I missed something, please bring it up. That was a long post!


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Have you seen a lab do protection work? I have personally, with one of the worlds best trainers for an extended period. Labs are breed to have a soft mouth, just like a GSD is bred to have a full grip. You can't fight the genetics. Well bred labs make poor protection dogs, end of story... I saw an awesome lab, who even had too hard of a mouth for a lab, but just couldn't do the protection work. Awesome at all the other aspects of schutzhund. Phenomenal tracking, demonstrated scent discrimination, awesome guard with nice defense in it, nice bark, very fast and hard hitting... but the grip was trash.


See that is why I don't fully believe the conditional soft mouth. I don't believe labs should be worked in protection. I just don't.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> But the fact that there are dogs with such extreme hip angulation that don't even walk normally that are winning in conformation defeats the purpose!


Sorry, have to comment on this, because it drives me nuts. Hips cannot be angulated.

The angulation is created by the meeting of the upper and lower thigh bones.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Sorry, have to comment on this, because it drives me nuts. Hips cannot be angulated.
> 
> The angulation is created by the meeting of the upper and lower thigh bones.


I apologize. Is rear angulation a more correct term to use?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Is rear angulation a more correct term to use?


Yes indeed.

Y'know, I went BOS to the dog that is (fighting for) #1 herding dog in the country. Nice dog, nice temperament, great, clean mover, excellent breed type, much more moderate than many dogs.

I'd steal him in a heartbeat.

I hate the split. I want dogs that can do it all at a high level of competition. I adore exhibiting in conformation, and see many, many correctly and beautifully built showlines.

They will do jack in an AKC ring. Yes, there are a couple of dogs that have gotten single points, but they'll never finish.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Labs should not do protection work, nor should golden retrievers which was a very long discussion when Mrs K shared a video of a golden doing 'schutzhund' . This breed should have no active aggression and be low on suspicion . They have to work in close proximity with hunters hiding in camoflaged blinds , with guns. A good GSD would run the course and point out the hiding location of each one . For a lab or golden to do protection work is wrong , however another retrieving dog , the Chesapeake Bay is very different , and can be a strong protective dog needing a strong assertive handler. I have seen a few that were ready and looking for a fight . 
Labs will bark , give an alert . Then you have to consider which Lab , American or British as each one is quite different from the other in build and character . 
As far as GSD it is not one particular dog that is expert or ideal for any job , but members within a breed , and that quality has to be maintained through breeding . 

Vicky , are you familiar with Linda Shaw's illustration of the breed standard Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Labs should not do protection work, nor should golden retrievers which was a very long discussion when Mrs K shared a video of a golden doing 'schutzhund' . This breed should have no active aggression and be low on suspicion . They have to work in close proximity with hunters hiding in camoflaged blinds , with guns. A good GSD would run the course and point out the hiding location of each one . For a lab or golden to do protection work is wrong , however another retrieving dog , the Chesapeake Bay is very different , and can be a strong protective dog needing a strong assertive handler. I have seen a few that were ready and looking for a fight .
> Labs will bark , give an alert . Then you have to consider which Lab , American or British as each one is quite different from the other in build and character .
> As far as GSD it is not one particular dog that is expert or ideal for any job , but members within a breed , and that quality has to be maintained through breeding .
> 
> ...


I agree with you on that. I did see that video here and on another forum as well. Someone posted it for humor, but many people felt very strongly about it. 

I am familiar with that, actually. But thank you for posting it as it is informative.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Shoot, that should have said:
I hate the split. I want dogs that can do it all at a high level of competition. I adore exhibiting in conformation, and see many, many correctly and beautifully built working lines


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

jackie, who is (fighting to be) the #1 herding dog in the country? thanks.

about the split, well that genie's out of the bottle. there are wonderful (and not so wonderful), german shepherd dogs out there of all the different "lines". i do think that health issues have become a real problem in american show lines. back in the day (50-60's) there were only two kinds of shepherds, american bred and german imports. but everything changes and ultimately i think diversity is a good thing. lots of different kinds of sheppies to choose from. none better or worse than the other(overall), just different.

jmho.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is no split in German Shepherds, just an extreme in Judging and trialing that has promoted excessiveness in type and temperament. Plain and simple. There are many many excellent, fantastic German Shepherds in structure and temperament in the same dog.....they just won't win in the breed ring and Sch Nationals. The breed ring doesn't define good conformation for me no more than winning the USA nationals define good temperament(working ability) for me. Dogs like Marko vom Cellerland, Bernd v Lierberg, Held v Ritterberg, could never win in the breed ring or on the competition field today. (the big joke is; that in the American breed ring these dogs couldn't even finish today). Yet, NO breed historian questions these dogs contribution to the breed, in what they were structurally, mentally; and more importantly able to produce the same consistently. The GS is a herding dog, and this is fitting, as many many breeders and owners today are sheep following the standards set by Trials and Conformation shows to determine their type, structure and working ability. 
These people need ego gratification, even as they see the wheels coming off the product, they strive to stay in the click(sp), for the ego and adulation. Certainly, the dogs don't know the difference!!! The rewards are great in money and ego gratification to keep this going, and the influx of a whole new world where because of ignorance of this great breed they acquire the top specimens of these extreme worlds and proudly proclaim them to others that know less than them.
The breed is not split from my vantage point, there are some really knowledgable breeders out there producing the whole package, they just aren't in the middle of the show and trial world. they seek balance in structure, type, and structure and working. They don't need somebody to tell what is correct because they KNOW what is correct as any craftsman would. Their dogs would do well today, yesterday, and tomorrow, in fitting the breed standard....whether it is on either side of the pond. 
No folks, the split is in the minds and creations of show and sport of today.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Cliff, very insightful and true, that is exactly what's happening. In order to win or be the best you have to be OUTSIDE of the standard in sport and in confirmation. I was really worried this thread was going to go down the way of bashing show lines but finally some people have realized that the top dogs in Schutzhund are not what the standard calls for. Those dogs excel at it, and are easier to train, but they are not the breed standard. It will never stop because people always want to be the best, and no one cares if the dog is within the standard when they are trialing or going to the world championships.

Also, I know that there are plenty of working dogs out there. But seriously, its a very small percentage of the breed that actually does work. It is the second most popular REGISTERED breed by the AKC and there are plenty more unregistered. I find it hard to believe that the percentage of true herders/police dogs/SAR and otheres is more than 1% of the whole population. I mean, I live in Milwaukee and the nearest Schutzhund club is an hour away! Its just not practical to think that this breed is used for work anymore. All breeds, the hunting dogs, the terriers, the herders, the hounds, they're all pets these days, and without pet homes, the breeds would slowly disappear.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> There is no split in German Shepherds, just an extreme in Judging and trialing that has promoted excessiveness in type and temperament.


But when breeders are only willing to breed within their own line (show or working) and the lines cannot be mixed without worry of temperament/nerve issues, that is almost like two different breeds.



> The breed is not split from my vantage point, there are some really knowledgable breeders out there producing the whole package, they just aren't in the middle of the show and trial world. they seek balance in structure, type, and structure and working. They don't need somebody to tell what is correct because they KNOW what is correct as any craftsman would.


The breeders who are producing the whole package SHOULD be in the middle of the show and trial world, IMO. The only way to change the attitude of judges is to SHOW them what the whole package is.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> The breeders who are producing the whole package SHOULD be in the middle of the show and trial world, IMO. The only way to change the attitude of judges is to SHOW them what the whole package is.


I agree and I WISH they would


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

WHY?????should they??? Does it change the reality of the situation.???? How can they show what the real dog is when the people Judging are former breeders and competitors of the venue and will continue to promote the same. That's asinine to me. You can't have it both ways. If you go to Rome you have to compete and be judged as the Romans are. Sounds good, what your saying, but not well thought out because it won't work or prove anything. They just get put to the end of the line or are penalized for not having the excessive speed, flash and grips. Those areas have gone to extremes....especially at the national level, and trying to compete at those levels only condones what they have created in show/trial and dog. Either you are the sheep or you are the Shepherd!! Its fine for competitors to be sheep, but breeders should be the Shepherd.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> jackie, who is (fighting to be) the #1 herding dog in the country?


GCH Babheim's Captain Crunch "Capi" is duking it out with a Bearded Collie (Mr. Baggins, I believe) to end up #1 before the end of the year.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> They just get put to the end of the line or are penalized for not having the excessive speed, flash and grips.


Why would they not have the speed, flash, and grips? If it is a dog that has it all, he should have good structure AND good working ability. Is it possible that a dog can be calm, level-headed, safe, and beautiful, and still posess speed, flash, and grips? 

Of course working dogs will go to the back of the line in Conformation shows (and vice versa) right now, and in the near future. But if those with the whole package get out there and get seen, it shows that the whole package *exists*. The more that show, the more it goes to prove that they are out there, and it raises the bar as people become aware that they can have the total dog. They don't have to choose between show dogs or working dogs if it's possible to have it all.

Now, if indeed you don't believe that the breed is capable of this on a grand scale, I have to disagree. I think the only thing that holds the GSD back are people. Breeders and judges. And as I mentioned in another thread, it will take a long time, probably several generations of breeders and judges, before anything changes.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone for introducing the extremes in not just the show lines but also the working lines. I think that definitely helps this conversation from being one sided.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I introduced the extremes in sport, but don't tell the show people because they would never be able to come to grips with it coming from me. But hey that's the whole issue...most people only see things from one perspective...including their opinion of other people and their dogs.
@Freestep....extreme speed, flash, and grips are not primary characteristics of this breed....to some I am sure....but's that's my point. They have nothing to do with being necessary for a great utility dog no more than color. (remember I said extreme!!!!)


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think what freestep is trying to say is why can't we have a dog, that looks like a show line and has drives like a working line. Correct me if I'm wrong. Well I see the issue with that because like cliff said, the grips and drives aren't part of the original dogs and standards. Even the foundations for the working lines wouldn't be able to compete with the dogs of today.

I look at it this way, each one of us has a different opinion on what a perfect GSD is. Be it a working line or a show line. We all read the standard and interpret it differently and then look for a dog that meets our needs. Now, magnify this forum to the whole world of GSD people and even more so to the judges/breeders that heavily influence the breed. You will never get them to agree on what the standard is, as even here we can't agree.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

See, I don't believe the standard is susceptible to "private" interpretation". Its written clear and concise....extreme angulation is not in the standard, crushing grips are not in the standard......they are both pleasing to see, but breeders should be more astute than spectators, fads or fashions.JMO


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> See, I don't believe the standard is susceptible to "private" interpretation". Its written clear and concise....extreme angulation is not in the standard, crushing grips are not in the standard......they are both pleasing to see, but breeders should be more astute than spectators, fads or fashions.JMO


... or judges ...

So many breeders are in the business of breeding for sale rather than for the standard.
Then, of course, there is the peer pressure. (aka competition?)


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

I have a question. Is wanting crushing grips or any variation of extreme grips (not sure what they are, if any) just as excessive or unnecessary as breeding for a crazy rear end to get a super flying trot? Is that comparable?

Shouldn't a dog that is able to work just need a full grip since a full grip would assist a dog in holding onto someone in a real situation, say for police work? Is that correct?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Vicky said:


> I have a question. Is wanting crushing grips or any variation of extreme grips (not sure what they are, if any) just as excessive or unnecessary as breeding for a crazy rear end to get a super flying trot? Is that comparable?
> 
> Shouldn't a dog that is able to work just need a full grip since a full grip would assist a dog in holding onto someone in a real situation, say for police work? Is that correct?


You can get a super flying trot without the crazy rear end. The crazy rear end mostly gives you forward reach. Dog with 'reasonable' angulation, strong back and good hips will produce a good trot. Don't leave out the front-end's contribution.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> You can get a super flying trot without the crazy rear end. The crazy rear end mostly gives you forward reach. Dog with 'reasonable' angulation, strong back and good hips will produce a good trot. Don't leave out the front-end's contribution.


I referred to the rear end because isn't the one of the biggest reasons that the rear end is so extreme today? What other "benefits" do breeders find in breeding for this? I don't agree with breeding for that rear end to help a trot, just to make that clear.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Versatility is a hallmark of the German Shepherd breed. In order to breed for versatility, the first step is to recognize what characteristics are *universally beneficial*. By this, I mean characteristics that enable dogs to function optimally in a variety of situations. Some characteristics are obviously beneficial for all venues, e.g. good hips, athleticism, solid nerves. These characteristics should form the backbone of any German Shepherd breeding program.

But what about specialized characteristics? This is where things get controversial. Specialized characteristics are beneficial in certain circumstances, but not in others. For example, a "hard crushing grip" might be cool on the schutzhund field, not so much when you are trying to move pregnant ewes from pasture to pasture. Another example, extreme angulation might provide reach and drive, but can limit athleticism. 

At some point, breeders have to start making decisions about the tradeoff between specialized characteristics and universally beneficial characteristics. I personally feel breeders should focus more on universally beneficial characteristics, not specialized characteristics. Breed the total dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff there is a huge split in the breed , thank you to the power and influence of the Martin brothers, representing Wienerau and Arminius. This subject very well covered in a thread you started, "Ice Berg Breeders". The split is the reason why you often say that the show lines just would not provide what you need , and the reason why you keep importing some wonderful animals from Czech kennels. 
Although the show lines are still sharing the same heritage for some 40 years the selection process has been different. Yes you can breed them , working/sport to show and the dog would be rightfully recognized as pure . For all intents and purposes 40 years of exclusive lines use for uniformity has created "another breed" . The conformation is different , the drive is different , the ability to be socially aggressive (assertive) is different. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In regards to the full grip question, when is it enough? Do you think that GSDs 30 years ago couldn't hang on to people? Or bite with enough force to injure/kill a person? Whats the difference between 200 lbs of force and 230 lbs of force? If 200 will do the trick why do we need the extra 30?

And the extra 30 comes by breeding for the grip and forgetting something else. As with all things, when you start doing something for a certain goal, you forget about the other things that maybe important. Now a strong grip will get you a better score in a trial, but whats the big deal with getting a 280 over a 295?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vicky said:


> Shouldn't a dog that is able to work just need a full grip since a full grip would assist a dog in holding onto someone in a real situation, say for police work? Is that correct?


You must have an understanding of the herding foundation of our breed to understand the reason for a full, calm and hard (not crushing) grip in our working dogs. The grip is full and calm thus doing minimal damage to the sheep. It must be hard/firm enough to control, dominate and at times over power a 200# animal that is often covered in very protective wool. Full, calm and hard grips are not a creation of the schutzhund world. They are a product of our dog's foundation and its genetics. They also tell one a lot about a dog's courage, hardness and nerves. 

Yes, a dog that does not have a genetic grip can probably still do police work, SAR, sport, etc. That doesn't change the fact that it should still be important in our breed.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

martemchik said:


> In regards to the full grip question, when is it enough? Do you think that GSDs 30 years ago couldn't hang on to people? Or bite with enough force to injure/kill a person? Whats the difference between 200 lbs of force and 230 lbs of force? If 200 will do the trick why do we need the extra 30?
> 
> And the extra 30 comes by breeding for the grip and forgetting something else. As with all things, when you start doing something for a certain goal, you forget about the other things that maybe important. Now a strong grip will get you a better score in a trial, but whats the big deal with getting a 280 over a 295?


When I say full grip, I wasn't referring to the pressure of the bite but the fact that the dog has a full hold on whatever is in his mouth. If I incorrectly used the term, please forgive me. I think as long as the pressure is enough to keep a hold on whatever the dog is holding, then it serves its purpose.

lhczth, thank you for posting that information. I am aware that Schutzhund is not the basis of this breed nor the characteristics that should be there genetically. It was just the topic that was mentioned and I commented on that specifically. Is it safe to assume then that the people who are breeding for a lot of aggression in the bitework are doing a disservice to the breed for not promoting a calm bite? Can a dog with a calm bite/hold still be an affective police dog and perform well in herding or is that too far off? 

(These questions are supposed to be educational, and not to promote further controversy.)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I think what freestep is trying to say is why can't we have a dog, that looks like a show line and has drives like a working line.


Just for the record, that's not exactly what I meant--I don't particularly like the look of show lines currently (German or American). What I want to see is good structure, moderate, per the standard. Not exaggerated or extreme. I like the look of V-rated working dogs. No roach back, no extreme angulation. A structure than can do more than just run around in a circle and look pretty.

But I would like it if the current show "look" could also posses the attributes of sound working temperament!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The crazy rear end mostly gives you forward reach.


That is incorrect. Crazy rear with an unbalanced front gives you a lifty dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> This puppy is between 7 and 10 months in all these pics. Tracking...service, protection work, working with sheep, and friend of a little boy. I maintain you can breed versatile dogs that can do it all and it doen't have to be one at the expense of the other. JMO


 
This is OT, but how the the Mutzster do herding?!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vicky said:


> lhczth, thank you for posting that information. I am aware that Schutzhund is not the basis of this breed nor the characteristics that should be there genetically.


Schutzhund was our breed test so, yes, the characteristics that made and make a dog able to do what is asked in a SchH trial are there genetically. No matter the problems with the current day SchH trial, a GSD should be able to do anything asked in a SchH trial easily.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" think what freestep is trying to say is why can't we have a dog, that looks like a show line and has drives like a working line."

xx that is where we were in the golden days of Marko, Bernd and Bodo, Ajax -- the dogs were the living examples of correct conformation type, and they worked and contributed to working mentality dogs.
I do not accept that the show line dogs (sorry) fall in line with the written standard and that the conformation that they have , which is becoming more exaggerated , is a hindrance to working function. 

" Correct me if I'm wrong. Well I see the issue with that because like cliff said, the grips and drives aren't part of the original dogs and standards. " 

xx If I understand you or Cliff correctly -- the grip and drive WERE the original dogs standards and reasons for being. When the breed or its ancestors was in the hands of those that actually used them for work there was little tolerance for dogs lacking ability. Cliff said a stool with one leg . When your livelihood depended on a good helper your assessment was severe . 

"Even the foundations for the working lines wouldn't be able to compete with the dogs of today."

xx I would not be so fast to say that . I think they could more than hold their own . The obedience would not be such a choreographed dance routine. The mind-game sophistication in training , (Pavlov, Skinner - operant conditioning ) had not been employed . The dogs would not have been flashy or fancy . Those dogs had two qualities that come to mind that are lacking in many GSD today , active aggression - social aggression and hunt drive . Jocoyn said a dog with hunt drive is hard to find .

To realy underline things I had the pleasure of watching some historic footage of dogs , taken from donations from the general public , for war time defense . It was amazing to see all these wiry , vibrant , energetic gsd very quickly going through training with high competence . Take that same sample from the general public today , would not even want to think about it -- here is a script Cat Island: The History of a ... - John Cuevas - Google Books
watch the entire hour of the History Detectives or select the portion with the war dogs only Watch History Detectives Season 8 Full Episodes

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A good Sch dog of the past would still be a good Sch dog today but it would not be a podium dog today, IMO. If you look at the obedience and the bitework of dogs in the seventies, (and Carmen I know you remember this) and the obedience and bitework of dogs today in Sch, you see a distinct difference. Now some of this is due to training methodology, (positive, prey, operant, ball, toy, whatever!), BUT a lot of today has been the result of breeding for certain extremes and flashiness. Pups today literally come out of the womb with full calm grips, over the top prey which is useful for flashy obedience; in conjunction with those training methods that are also often seen. Pups were not like that at early ages back in the day....least not to these extremes. This has been bred for. Social/active aggression, which you spoke on Carmen, and often doesn't lend itself to flashy obedience or extreme full calm grips, is less often seen. The dogs are different now genetically in many cases, partially; (like you said Carmen) due to people breeding for past thirty years for what wins on the podium. Look at film of dogs during bitework and obedience in seveties and now....an experienced eye can see big differences in type, in the work; between the two periods. Sure there are still some balanced strong dogs....I've already said that, but the breeding practices in sport is creating a specialty dog and if you saw both periods you could see it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what Cliff said.
Carmen


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What is also being lost is that natural intuitiveness that the old herding dogs needed in spades to be able to make such good decisions with and without the shepherd. I'm talking about the dog being able to read minute aspects of the shepherd and execute them so that it appears that the dog almost is reading the shepherds mind. That ability to discern situations. Even greater, the ability to only apply the amount of force, coersion, bite, that is needed to handle the situation. Ever watchful for things "to be in order"....when these traits were still valued, you had many more seeing-eye dogs because it made the dog one in sync with the handler. Today, many dogs have drives that will completely dominate these type subtle traits and often make the dog unsuitable for these venues. These things are important to the German Shepherd temperament, drives need to be balanced for some of these things to appear or be sharpened. How often do you see dogs that the insane drive makes the training of these dogs a total 3 year adventure in normal hands? Sure, the professional Sch person can manage the dog well, operative word being well, but for a regular competent handler its still a fight for control of those drives(primarily prey), to be subservient to the training mission. Just sayin.
Now this is not all dogs that participate in Sch or aimed at working lines(whatever that is), its what dogs that are being bred for High sport are becoming. Some people today when they breed and look for a suitable mate, listen to what they are looking for. Often they are looking to increase the same things that are already present in the mate, but they want more. These things are always things that make the dog even better potentially for the sport. As opposed to looking FIRST to bring in some compensations for more balance and movement back to the center. (Show people have done this for years....so much emphasis on physical attributes that they don't even realize that the mental is going out the window....til you get to point that the physical is no longer correct; although it is winning) Well I see this happening in sport breeding also...so much emphasis on producing traits that deliver a flying bite as oppsed to flying trot, that other traits are slowly being lost or submerged so that podium status can be acheived.
Hey, I may be wrong in this, but it is something I see more and more and I feel it should be examined.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing....you often hear that dogs reflect their owners/breeders over time...lol 
Well, it may apply to breeders also.....I've just been very critcal of the direction of Sport breeding....otherwise known as BASHING, now when I am critical of show breeders and their goals, these breeders scream bashing, start crying, take their ball and go home, get extremely defensive, and always take me off their holiday list. I think subgroups have been started based on agreeing that I am an _ _ _ _ _ _ _! These breeders are on the soft side.......LOL
When I get real critical about the top Sch/sport people and their breeding schemes.....they pretty much ignore me, their feelings don't get hurt, they continue on doing what they are doing..lol, but many will privately reach out and acknowledge that these things need to be worked on, AND they still remain on speaking terms with me. These breeders are on the hard side. :crazy:
Either way, my thoughts aren't personal to either side, it what I see that is moving away from the core of the breed.....as always IN MY opinion....no more no less.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

:blush:

I am one of those people who used to have a fit when Cliff would post his insights on the breeding of "show" dogs. You see, I have some of those show dogs. But I have learned not to take the comments personally, and Cliff has agreed to use terms like "many", "most", and "some" instead of "all" when making his comparisons.

:hug::hug: Cliff


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> When I get real critical about the top Sch/sport people and their breeding schemes.....they pretty much ignore me, their feelings don't get hurt, they continue on doing what they are doing..lol, but many will privately reach out and acknowledge that these things need to be worked on, AND they still remain on speaking terms with me. These breeders are on the hard side. :crazy:


I think it is because these breeders know well the dogs they are producing, are very proud of the results, so Cliff's opinion doesn't really matter much to them. As the saying goes, "Do right and fear no one".


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Wasn't it also Cliff that said (I'm paraphrasing here) that breeders who know what they're doing don't need anyone else to tell them their dogs are great? And that is why they aren't in the middle of the show and sport world?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

again - what Cliff said . 
That intuitive intelligent sensitivity (possitive - not submissive) was / is a highly highly valuable assest to the herding dog . I was so privileged to be allowed access to the inner sanctum of one of the guide dog institutes . This is exactly what they were looking for . When the institute had a change in admin they looked to replace GSD (which they were no longer using because of the public image ) they used golden retrievers and labs . Golden retrievers were too silly, so easily distracted they were a hazard. In this breed same phenomenon - no longer dedicated bird hunting dogs , huge pet population totally strayed from original purpose. Labs the same , very bull in a china shop attitudes --- but not the English bred which were 180 degrees different. Hip problems rivaling or more truthfully surpassing the hip problems in GSD. So what do they do . They use the lab and the bring in the Bernese Mountain dog to bring in some of the sobriety and responsibilty concomittant with herding , tending dogs. But yet another problem , now we have foreshortened lives, hip problems plus, and bone cancer which is a challenge for this breed. So next attempt is the golden retriever - standard poodle cross which seems to be okay. The looks and idea and the catchy name caught on with the public and there are goldendoodles in every neighbourhood. Not the same as these are just dogs selected for pet market . Had they been bred with a view for creating something "the best" then you would have selected genes from the best kept working gene bank from each hunting breed. Working , field retrievers bred to yet another working , retriever , golden or lab to working poodle . 

There is another thread currently German Shepherd Breeders which is merging with this one . I just posted two replies with lots of links to herding sites etc.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freestep to answer or add to your observation , those breeders often are severly limited to the number of litters that they have in one year . They can't buy those full page $1,000 plus US funds per month glossy ads in the specialty magazines that the show breeders can .. One month would destroy the entire budget cushion . One litter per year , two in an 18 month cycle doesn't warrant that exposure or expense.

That is the current state -- the business side of things . 
Carmen


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

To add onto what has already been said about versatility, I noticed on a breeder's website that they were talking about what they believe to be correct for the breed. The general idea is that breeders should not be working towards versatility in their lines but versatility in each INDIVIDUAL dog and that each dog should be versatile as well. At first I understood this and agreed with it, but after thinking it over, I don't think I do anymore. Every dog is an individual and not every single dog can be good at different disciplines. Why isn't it good enough that different individuals from the breed can do an array of different things. Some can be awesome herding dogs, some good sport dogs, some have nearly perfect conformation, some can be great police dogs, etc. I just don't think it's realistic to want a cookie cutter breed where every dog can do a little of everything. How do you all feel about this? What do you think is more realistic? I know a few people may have touched on this subject already but it really interests me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I disagree. I don't think it's unfair to say that not every dog is going to get all the same titles or the same training, but to me what makes a GSD good at herding are the same traits that make him a good family protector or police dog or agility dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vicky, a good GSD should have the genetics to do all of these things. They may not excel at them all, but the genetics should be there. A good police prospect should make a good schutzhund which should make a good SAR which should make a good herding dog, which should make for a good obedience dog or agility dog and a wonderful pet......... This is what our breed was supposed to be. A utilitarian working dog. Not specialized. A jack of all trades, a master of none. What someone "chooses" to do with their dog does not change what a good GSD should be able to do.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Was it Stephanitz who said "Best at nothing, second best at everything"?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't have much to add to this concerning breeders, since I feel like there is a point where it becomes about protesting a bit too much. There is not a lot to be done about what is going on. People like what they like and that's what they will breed and look for.

I did want to comment on the grips and social aggression aspect. I do not agree that dogs now are born with full grips. Mostly the "full" grip is a result of training where there is minimal pressure or where there is training that resembles a force retrieve. 
The motivation behind the grips are different than they used to be because, as has already been mentioned, the old dogs had social aggression and a protective instinct. Social aggression is not simply "aggression " either. These traits are not much valued any longer ...by anyone. Some bloodlines, ( maybe many), are now completely devoid of these traits. 
I saw MANY dogs who were born with full, hard, powerful grips but those dogs did not simply have social aggression, they had NERVES and a level of hardness that many dogs lack now. At the same time, they were very tuned in to their handlers. These dogs came out at about a year and a half and the first time they saw him/her, hammered the agitator, ( bad guy), who was wearing a sleeve, not swinging a tug around on a leash.
Not all bloodlines showed all these things in one dog but I was lucky to see and work with some of the best ones. 

Some of the dogs now seem hard but are not compliant and that is not a GSD. The hardness is not the same like those older dogs, and it too, seems like it is not coming from the same place, just like the grips are not. There is a more frantic, stressed behavior in it, where they hang on full almost out of a need for safety. Some dogs like this, sort of scream when they are on the sleeve. The level of compliance is not there and I think that is coming from stress also. Some call it drive but there is something else going on there as well. 

The best dogs I ever saw or worked...(and they were out of, or had the most famous working dogs in history, very close in their pedigrees), all had full, hard, powerful , CALM grips. The pressure would only make the grip stronger and brought up the fight drive. I see less of that now. It is easier now to disturb the dog's grip with pressure and the fight drive is missing most of the time. The dogs do not escalate, they just kind of hang on or try to get out of the "heat" by pulling away from the front of the helper. That avoidance, IMO, is because the level of courage is not quite the same. I saw some good dogs with not quite full grips but they were not the same caliber of the others. No ifs and or buts about it. When the dogs with the big grips bit you.....you felt controlled. It is not that way with many of the dogs now. They are more about the sleeve, more possessive of objects... which fits into the style of training we see now. 

If the older style dogs cannot do well in SchH, it is my opinion that it is more about the training...(especially the helper work), where the helpers want to play with the dogs too much. They have a demeanor that tells the dog, " I am friendly and I will not hurt you". The good dogs find these people confusing, boring and not worthy of much of a response. In case anyone thinks I am glorifying protection work and grips a bit too much....you are right! Protection work is where you see the most about the dog's character. Period. 

One more thing that people might find interesting. Years ago, the show lines did do very decent protection work. They did it about the same way I see many of the working lines doing it now. It is VERY similar in some of the dogs. That, IMO, is not a good sign. 

I have worked dogs as the SchH helper for 35 years now, I have had a perspective that few others have. I see the behaviors in the dogs and I have the ability to disturb the dogs enough to see more than others do. I am not the dog's friend when I do helper work, nor am I their "sparring partner". When you present that to the dogs, you see who they REALLY are. There are still some good ones but the training now just might be hiding them. Most of the dogs I work for the first time have been bored to DEATH by the training. When they see someone who means business, a whole other side comes out. That's when you see all the things I talked about above and which ones the dogs have and which ones they don't. Is it the same as what we saw years ago....no...I don't think I have seen that very often lately...but they can be much better than what is being described here when the work is done correctly. 

As for the versatility comments. What Lisa and Lies said should be the case. Every SINGLE dog should possess the traits that allow them to do a number of tasks. Will some in the litter be better than others at something? Well sure but it is not a case where the breed is split up into different factions and then labeled versatile as a result. Of course, there are some who would like that to be believed and in many cases, it is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Daphne.....You do breed for core German Shepherds, and also test your dogs in venues outside the breed ring. But what I really respect you for is recognizing that you could use something that is traditionally outside the breed box(DDR dog), and bring it into your breeding to improve your base both phenotypically and genotypically.
You constantly hear people say," how can I improve the SL without more saturation of genepool." Translated: How can I improve temperament or performance and still be Black and Red or still have the extreme gait. They want to change the phenotype in temperament(outward expression), but they want to maintain the genotype through staying with black and red dogs. Won't happen. You must bring in some new genetics, (genetics) Sure, that's going to change the phenotype some, but it increases health, temperament. You choose to do that Daphne,..... now some of your peers have tried to do this with the American to the WGSL, to improve genotype. This will work in short term but the problem is both these lines,(WGSL,ASL) are already very highly saturated on a few dogs. So both lines bring in some real concentrated negatives that have to be balanced against, primarily in temperament and health. What you did Daphne is probably the best way to bring in the new blood and still produce dogs that can be successfully shown AND improve the much needed genotype for health and temperament. So I salute you, understand what you are doing, and know you are putting the breed ahead of the show ring.


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## Vicky (Apr 28, 2011)

Wow, Anne, what a post! Thank you all, again, for contributing. Yes, versatility should mean that the genetics should be there to excel at the different tasks or whatever word you deem appropriate as far as "jack of all trades, master at none". Anne, I really want to emphasize that I agree that there are going to be dogs in each litter that will be better at certain things than the others and vice versa. Should people take these dogs and then go and try to maximize the traits that make them good at what they are good at? No, because that is how we got to where we are now.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

somewhere someone once said something like:
"a good gsd can be second best at everything, at once"

or as one friend once said:
my gsd can train on the SchH field in the morning, do therapy work in the afternoon, and play dress-up with my 4 yr old daughter at night...

But as always, individual mileage may vary, due to driving habits.

If we provide a wide spectrum of activity, socialization, and training, if the dog is not deficient genetically, versatility should be there. If it is deficient, all that work can improve things immensely, but versatile won't be among adjectives used to describe the individual.

We can learn from them all, but it's just easier and more fun when enough
good genetics are there.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> There is no split in German Shepherds, just an extreme in Judging and trialing that has promoted excessiveness in type and temperament. Plain and simple. There are many many excellent, fantastic German Shepherds in structure and temperament in the same dog.....they just won't win in the breed ring and Sch Nationals.


Or, maybe sometimes they do...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Exceptions exist!!! especially when created by an overated lucky sensitive person....LOL
Btw, Matt how is that new puppy making out?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I have worked dogs as the SchH helper for 35 years now, I have had a perspective that few others have. I see the behaviors in the dogs and I have the ability to disturb the dogs enough to see more than others do. I am not the dog's friend when I do helper work, nor am I their "sparring partner". When you present that to the dogs, you see who they REALLY are. *There are still some good ones but the training now just might be hiding them.* Most of the dogs I work for the first time have been bored to DEATH by the training. When they see someone who means business, a whole other side comes out. That's when you see all the things I talked about above and which ones the dogs have and which ones they don't. Is it the same as what we saw years ago....no...I don't think I have seen that very often lately...but they can be much better than what is being described here when the work is done correctly.


The bolded part... I touched on this before, but did not get much response.

Is it possible that alot of the differences we see are not just genetics, but also the way the dogs are being trained? Alot of training technique has changed, has softened up, in the last decades. Perhaps our newer methods of training are making dogs that are softer, or maybe the kinds of dogs that flourish under such training are softer, and the harder more "real" dogs do not flourish and thus are not bred? Are we creating weaker dogs by going towards more modern training?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

BR870 said:


> The bolded part... I touched on this before, but did not get much response.
> 
> ..... Alot of training technique has changed, has softened up, in the last decades. Perhaps our newer methods of training are making dogs that are softer, or maybe the kinds of dogs that flourish under such training are softer, and the harder more "real" dogs do not flourish and thus are not bred? Are we creating weaker dogs by going towards more modern training?


IMO, the training has certainly not "softened up" for a lot of people. However, some of the training I see is much more *impersonal.* Handlers working very hard to make sure the dog does not know rewards and corrections come from the handler.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As I said, some of the dogs are different than they used to be. Some of the lines produce dogs who are are very possessive. Others, the nerves are just not what they used to be and many dogs seem to lack hardness and fight drive. What the trainers value has changed and IMO, it is due to ignorance first, and maybe equally so, the almost obsessive desire to produce a flashy, fast, circus-like obedience performance. It is much less about showing attentiveness and willingness now and much more about displaying flash and speed. Schutzhund is a three phase endeavor because the breed is supposed to be versatile. When you take one phase and accentuate it's importance, the others fall out of balance. IMO, the protection work has suffered the most due to the obsession with obedience. We have dogs now scoring very well at National events whose protection work is basically all obedience. 

It is not the case that you cannot score high with a "real" dog. It is a case of knowing HOW to train those dogs. Mostly, what I see is helpers who cannot,(or have never been shown), how to present a challenge to the dogs. They have the demeanor of a neutral, friendly person and if you think the dogs can't see that, ( and they SHOULD because they are supposed to be GSDs), you don't know dogs. In order for a dog to show strong , convincing protection work, he must work using his aggression and fight drive. The guarding, power in the bite and ability to think and respond to the handler, all are related to the dog working at the correct drive level. Correct drive level includes aggression and fight drive, not just play or prey work. As I have said previously, prey work is very important but the idea in protection training is to channel the aggression into the prey work. Nowadays, people are trying to channel play into prey work. You can only get a dog so high using just play and prey and you will always be there pumping up the dog to get what you want.

Most believe a dog in drive will be dirty, this has always been one of those SchH myths IMO. Nothing could be further from the truth. When a dog is not worked at his optimum drive level, you will see behaviors like re-bites, looking for the handler etc. I have talked to, and helped fix, the dogs of a number of people who taught the silent guard to their dogs. Many of them had problems with the dog re-biting as they approached. All were encouraged to use an e-collar to correct it, ( obedience mentality). In reality, it was a problem with the dog's drive level. The handler became too much of an attraction because the dog was dropping out of drive after the out. Once in drive, the problem cleared up completely. However, not many helpers can do that work because as I already said, they are not presenting the right attitude to the dogs and trainers seem afraid to put the dogs in that state of mind. Many people cannot recognize when a dog is not working in drive and re-enforce that behavior with way too many bites. 

Years ago, that is how we trained, with the dogs in drive and using their aggression and fight. It was supposed to be protection, not a show that mimics it. If you consider that the dogs thought the person hiding in the blind was someone who could hurt them, maybe you can understand what kind of dog would excel in SchH. These were harder, more courageous dogs. Dogs who liked the FIGHT with the bad guy. You could see the dogs thinking when they would come into the blind. People look at videos of that nowadays and think the dogs were no good because they do not understand the difference in the way they were trained. 
Now, the dogs go in that blind not expecting much of a problem and their behavior makes that very clear. Because some dogs show an aggressive nature there, does not make them " all that" as far as breeding or protection goes. I see many dogs come into the blind and make a big display of aggression that borders on frantic but that is not desirable either. Just that people do not seem to know the difference in a dog who is confident and one who is just a little too edgy. 

Anyway, I do believe the training is hiding a big part of the dogs and I will go so far as to say the e-collar is part of that as well. Most do not seem to realize how far that e-collar gets inside their dog. I view that correction as something that suppresses drive. A proper correction from the handler should be something a GSD can handle and handle well.

As I said in my last post, protection is where you see the dog's character but the dog has to view it as that, not as " just a game" which is the way so many SchH people now want to describe what is going on. That mentality is encouraging how people are working the dogs in protection and the fear of point loss is making them control too much of what their dogs do in training. 
What Mary is referring to does result in softer dogs. They should be able to tolerate a correction from their handler. What I see and read about now is people who kind of swing from one extreme to another trying to reach this "impersonal" place with their dog. They want to clicker train in obedience, ( which does not test the dog's hardness to correction), but then slap on an e-collar in protection and zap away on the dog. Years ago, we considered the e-collar as something to "polish" with. It was not something you trained with daily, unless you were someone who didn't know what you were doing. When you think about it, a correction is supposed to teach the dog something. Once they learn that something, the corrections are rarely needed. However, people with the e-collars on, always seem to be using them. That is a powerful correction , yes, even at low stim. As someone who sees the dog's face and eyes when I work them as the helper, I can tell you the e-collar is not something I recommend. 

Last, the GSD is an aggressive breed. As such, the SchH test was there to ensure that what supports that aggression is present and in balance in the dog. Meaning nerves, willingness to work and comply with the handler and so on. People are using training methods that remove the ability to really see if those things are there. IMO, this is sending the breed to a place it was never intended to go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anne, the Vandal , I think what you said here "Last, the GSD is an aggressive breed. As such, the SchH test was there to ensure that what supports that aggression is present and in balance in the dog. Meaning nerves, willingness to work and comply with the handler and so on. People are using training methods that remove the ability to really see if those things are there. IMO, this is sending the breed to a place it was never intended to go"

is probably the best and most important summary of where we are, why we are here and what needs to be done.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think I've ever seen SchH and sport/work bashed so much on this forum...and I use that term loosely. Money, greed, ego, is still at the bottom of all this. The higher your SchH score the more money you can ask for a stud/pup fee. The more points towards your championship (conformation) or the bigger the venue you win at, same deal with the money.

And I'm not even saying to make profit, I'm saying to support what it is that you do with your dog. The better it is at whatever venue the handler decides, the more the handler will be able to go to the trials/shows. I can really respect the breeders that breed those "in the middle" dogs. They're not doing it for the what I'd like to call selfish reasons.

And freestep, I guess I just put it too broadly when I summarized your post, but I think we all would like a dog that can win in the conformation ring and have the drives of a working dog. What I didn't say was that I too believe that the conformation standards must change in order for that to happen. I don't like the sloped look either, but that look won't go away anytime soon so I didn't really bother writing about it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Anne, I'll make sure to read your post to my helper, since it summarize pretty well what I want him to lead his work.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> What I didn't say was that I too believe that the conformation standards must change in order for that to happen.


It's not the standard's fault...it is people that don't adhere to it.

Had a beautiful dog here this summer that was a picture of the standard.....people made fun of him. I didn't even own the dog, and was hurt by the nasty comments (and my husband wanted to lay someone out over the nastiness). I thought he was beautiful, and very correct, or I wouldn't have taken him on.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> What I didn't say was that I too believe that the conformation standards must change in order for that to happen.


I don't believe the standard is what needs changing. The standard, in and of itself, is just fine. But wherever there is an area of subjective interpretation, conformation goes to an extreme. Nothing in standard says "extreme" in any way, shape, or form, yet the GSD of today looks nothing like you'd expect when reading the standard. That is on breeders and judges. There are still breeders out there producing the total dog, but they tend not to win in conformation, which is a shame. I honestly don't know how or if it will change, but as I said before, it will probably take several generations of breeders and judges.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Xeph;Had a beautiful dog here this summer that was a picture of the standard.....people made fun of him. I didn't even own the dog said:


> Jackie, I am curious. What did they find wrong with the dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think a lot of people have bred themselves into a corner and are either so kennel blind or just so ignorant they really don't know. I was at a show one time and this breeder was going on and on about how her dogs were correct conformation and temperament....but had nothing to show for working ability and were in the ring with their ears pinned back and tails tucked. That's maybe a little extreme but when I see what some people call "drive" I just go...wait, what? I see a dog's level of drive as persistence, and someone can't tell me their dog is "high drive" when it's never been subjected to anything that requires actual persistence, actual strength and courage under pressure. Like an RN or RA title for example, to me that says nothing about a dog's drive, since that sport was designed to be an easier form of regular obedience that sets up a dog for success. How does that tell me anything about the persistence in the dog and how he can handle pressure?

Then there are dogs that have so *much* drive bred into them I actually feel sorry for them


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Most believe a dog in drive will be dirty, this has always been one of those SchH myths IMO. Nothing could be further from the truth. When a dog is not worked at his optimum drive level, you will see behaviors like re-bites, looking for the handler etc. I have talked to, and helped fix, the dogs of a number of people who taught the silent guard to their dogs. Many of them had problems with the dog re-biting as they approached. All were encouraged to use an e-collar to correct it, ( obedience mentality). In reality, it was a problem with the dog's drive level. The handler became too much of an attraction because the dog was dropping out of drive after the out. Once in drive, the problem cleared up completely. However, not many helpers can do that work because as I already said, they are not presenting the right attitude to the dogs and trainers seem afraid to put the dogs in that state of mind. *Many people cannot recognize when a dog is not working in drive and re-enforce that behavior with way too many bites. *
> 
> Years ago, that is how we trained, with the dogs in drive and using their aggression and fight. It was supposed to be protection, not a show that mimics it. If you consider that the dogs thought the person hiding in the blind was someone who could hurt them, maybe you can understand what kind of dog would excel in SchH. These were harder, more courageous dogs. *Dogs who liked the FIGHT with the bad guy. You could see the dogs thinking when they would come into the blind.* People look at videos of that nowadays and think the dogs were no good because they do not understand the difference in the way they were trained.
> Now, the dogs go in that blind not expecting much of a problem and their behavior makes that very clear. Because some dogs show an aggressive nature there, does not make them " all that" as far as breeding or protection goes. I see many dogs come into the blind *and make a big display of aggression that borders on frantic but that is not desirable either*. Just that people do not seem to know the difference in a dog who is confident and one who is just a little too edgy.


 My TD/helper is not one that 'plays' with the doggies. He doesn't give the bites generously, they have to earn them. He wants them to show power and confidence and works with them to bring it out. But different lines will bring different attitude for sure, and he has to know how to work each one. 
Thanks for your insight, Anne! I am really happy that I do train with someone who 'gets it'


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Jackie, I am curious. What did they find wrong with the dog?


Not enough rear was the biggest complaint, in addition to soft back, and a coarse head. The "lack" of rear was a real sticking point.

I personally found the dog to be well balanced and decently angulated without being ridiculously overdone.

And he fit right into our household. An absolute JOY to live with. Seriously. My husband and that dog just clicked, too. There's a part of me that wants him back, regardless of whether or not he should still be shown.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you like the dog why not keep the dog...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If you like the dog why not keep the dog...


Because I'm not/wasn't the owner of that dog.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Not enough rear was the biggest complaint, in addition to soft back, and a coarse head. The "lack" of rear was a real sticking point.
> 
> I personally found the dog to be well balanced and decently angulated without being ridiculously overdone.
> 
> And he fit right into our household. An absolute JOY to live with. Seriously. My husband and that dog just clicked, too. There's a part of me that wants him back, regardless of whether or not he should still be shown.


Jackie, your story made me think of this one. 

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

There seems to be so many different versions of the standard now. People, now would have made fun of my first GSD, although 40 years ago he everyone thought he was perfect and some offered my dad lot of money to buy him!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Because I'm not/wasn't the owner of that dog.


That would be a really good reason


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> I don't think I've ever seen SchH and sport/work bashed so much on this forum...and I use that term loosely. Money, greed, ego, is still at the bottom of all this. The higher your SchH score the more money you can ask for a stud/pup fee. The more points towards your championship (conformation) or the bigger the venue you win at, same deal with the money.
> 
> And I'm not even saying to make profit, I'm saying to support what it is that you do with your dog. The better it is at whatever venue the handler decides, the more the handler will be able to go to the trials/shows. I can really respect the breeders that breed those "in the middle" dogs. They're not doing it for the what I'd like to call selfish reasons.
> 
> And freestep, I guess I just put it too broadly when I summarized your post, but I think we all would like a dog that can win in the conformation ring and have the drives of a working dog. What I didn't say was that I too believe that the conformation standards must change in order for that to happen. I don't like the sloped look either, but that look won't go away anytime soon so I didn't really bother writing about it.


*It ain't the standard* that causes the over angulation or the opposite look of a roach back - std calls for a LEVEL back. it is the breeders and general show crowd who often goes to either extreme.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Chessies can be quite aggressive. Out of all the bird dogs, they are the most protective and will not hesitate to tell an intruder where to go!


I grew up with a gorgeous lab/chessie mix and he was very protective. Great dog, but very dominant. He ended up biting my grandfather during a visit and was pts by my parents after a few scary incidences. Some of my best memories as a kid with this dog though, would pull me around the neighborhood in a sled during the winter


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Freestep said:


> You really don't know if there is suspicion or not, because you've probably never seen these dogs in a situation where the owner was threatened. The very same dog who licks the friendly stranger may warn a would-be thief in no uncertain terms not to come closer.
> 
> It seems to me a dog, even a GSD, who can tolerate strangers petting, poking, hugging, etc. is a very tolerant dog who has good discernment. Of course some dogs will react with licking and tail wagging and others will just sigh and patiently endure the attentions of well-meaning strangers, but a guide/service dog must be safe in these situations. Confidence, self-assured temperament, Lower suspicion, high thresholds, focus, and discernment are good qualities for a service dog and a GSD with this temperament should be well suited for the task.


As well though a lot of temperament is genetic, a lot of behavior and personality is not and is conditioned and learned.You can take a dog with good temperment and make it a luv bug who allows anyone to approach and pet etc..

My rescue Hope has a good temperment, and through a lot of socializing and such she is very approachable by anyone.. She takes a few secs to think it over with adults, a little more for men, and is a bit more discerning when a man has something in his hand and may even bark once to slow his approach, but very friendly indeed, tolerant of kids, and will allow quite a bit of hugging or play to a point. She's toddler safe.. 

That point is generally someone trying to hold her or confine her, which she absolutely does not allow. She doesn't bite however, she simply leaps away. She did bust a freind of mine's lip with her head when he tried to wrestle with her and put both arms around her to try to bear hug her.. It's something she'll really only let me do.

Someone approaching in threatening manner is a whole different story though.. And one word from me and she goes into threat alert mode.

The GSD's I have seen that cannot do that are the ones without that stable foundation and have too much fear of people and things, and I have seen quite a few very skittish GSD's around like that that even conditioning can't really fix.


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