# Loose leash walking (Kikopup) - When to start giving less treats?



## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

I recently started doing the loose leash walking method that Kikopup shows in videos on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sFgtqgiAKoQ):
rewarding with treats when dog is walking on a loose leash, somewhat heeling, and doing rewarding often (as in video). I also say "let´s go" and that means we go with a loose leash and no stopping and sniffing. On command I allow her stop and sniff, then I stop and let her go and sniff as she pleases and I just follow.

This is actually going very well on regular walks but I am giving her a big amount of food when doing this (got the whole pocket full of food). I have done this only a few days now and I wonder when you should start giving less and less food? How long does it take? I dont want to be a food-machine but I also want her to learn this once and for all. I did this once before, last summer maybe, but then I guess I stopped giving her treats too soon for behaving, because it obviously didnt work out for us back then.

Anyone done this method with success? When did you start giving less and less food for right/good behaviour?

(Didnt find any good answer about this when searching, and didnt also find any email to kikopup herself, but I bet I wouldnt get an answer anyway.)


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

There have been some good discussions in here relating to the question you pose....one that comes to mind was one debating whether or not the human becoming a 
" Pez dispenser" is productive over the long haul. I am now of the mindset that teaching and using a food treat has merit in the beginning or for teaching new behaviors....once they know the behavior, one needs to move on and either be more sporadic with the food rewards or better yet replace the reward with something else. This forum and some members helped me out in this department significantly as I was basically creating a pup which would work for food and not for me. I'm probably going to state this wrong and hopefully the shrewd handlers and trainers will explain the process better than I will.

IMO, the process of fading a food reward and moving on so one doesn't have to have a pocket full of raw beef all the time to have a dog which abides, is indulging the dog in other fashions which captures the dog's focus as attention is directed toward you. The process I used, started replacing food rewards with forms of engagement which the dog thoroughly enjoyed....such as a simple game of tug. Then it grew into this process of using the dog's anticipation as well as heightening it. This probably created the biggest step away from the use of food treats to get results....wish I had known this earlier in the process. Today I just say " you wanna train?" and the dog is on line in a heartbeat...because the dog knows where this verbal cue is going to end up...granted it's not instant gratification for the dog but that's fine by me as I get such better results from the dog's anticipation of what "you wanna train " translates to the dog.

I'll bring a tug toy or tennis ball with me sometimes when we go for a bike ride most everyday....weather and street conditions ( ice/snow ) permitting. We will train off leash at a park sometimes during our bike ride trek and I swear the potential promise of this training session with some tug play or other engagement as her reward is more potent than any food scrap I have ever used.

It takes some time but once you start to dial in on what makes your dog tick and you create this synergy between you and the dog, obedience, engagement, reward and corrections along with the dog's anticipation...you'll have a dog which does it by the numbers so much more effectively and reliably than a dog which simply works for food. 


SuperG


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Wean off give on a variable schedule. -3 steps then 5 then 2 then 7 then then 1 then 4 then 5 then 6 then 2 then 1 then 1 then 5 then 6 then 2 then 3 then 1 ect ect ect


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

SuperG said:


> There have been some good discussions in here relating to the question you pose....one that comes to mind was one debating whether or not the human becoming a
> " Pez dispenser" is productive over the long haul. I am now of the mindset that teaching and using a food treat has merit in the beginning or for teaching new behaviors....once they know the behavior, one needs to move on and either be more sporadic with the food rewards or better yet replace the reward with something else. This forum and some members helped me out in this department significantly as I was basically creating a pup which would work for food and not for me. I'm probably going to state this wrong and hopefully the shrewd handlers and trainers will explain the process better than I will.
> 
> IMO, the process of fading a food reward and moving on so one doesn't have to have a pocket full of raw beef all the time to have a dog which abides, is indulging the dog in other fashions which captures the dog's focus as attention is directed toward you.
> ...


Thanks. You dont, by any chance, remember in what threads these things were discussed?

Otherwise I tug with my dog as an reward. Tugs and balls means everything for her. I also use a word like "ready!?" when we start training obedience for example. I also always have a toy with me in my other pocket which I use if we stop to do some obedience. I also let her carry toy the whole walk sometime (started another thread some time ago about this). 

I have difficulties atm to connect these two kinds of training though, because the dog doesnt have to be in drive and all ready to work when doing regular walks, I just want her to walk with loose leash without stopping every 5 metres to sniff and not pulling (shes not a heavy puller in normal walk situations though)/not keeping the leash straight when walking. I think I undestand what you meant though. Perhaps in the very end when I have gotten off the treats (with method as the member above posted?) I can simply give the tug as an reward, but that doesnt mean she can suddenly break the behaviour the rest of the walk..


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

Mrs.P said:


> Wean off give on a variable schedule. -3 steps then 5 then 2 then 7 then then 1 then 4 then 5 then 6 then 2 then 1 then 1 then 5 then 6 then 2 then 3 then 1 ect ect ect


Thanks, feeling somewhat stupid of not thinking about this. Different variables and sometime many steps between and sometimes less. Later on just increasing the steps and less and less treat-reward.  But I guess I start doing this when I notice she gets what I want and offers it..


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Factor said:


> Thanks, feeling somewhat stupid of not thinking about this. Different variables and sometime many steps between and sometimes less. Later on just increasing the steps and less and less treat-reward.  But I guess I start doing this when I notice she gets what I want and offers it..


Yes slowly stretch it out and sessions do not have to be long. 

Another thought depending on what you're feeding you can also use her meals as reward --so not feeding her out of the bowl she gets some parts of a dinner during training. Harder if you're doing raw I understand...


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

Mrs.P said:


> Yes slowly stretch it out and sessions do not have to be long.
> 
> Another thought depending on what you're feeding you can also use her meals as reward --so not feeding her out of the bowl she gets some parts of a dinner during training. Harder if you're doing raw I understand...


Maybe better to do more walks but in shorter period of time then? Otherwise I usually do two longer walks and training (obedience, tracking, schutzhund, silly tricks)/play in between depending on what kind of day we have.

I do use her meals as reward, mixed with some treats to up the value and variation. In daily walks and new training with low distractions her own meals as reward is working, with more distractions the value of the food usually have to be better.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Factor said:


> I have difficulties atm to connect these two kinds of training though, because the dog doesnt have to be in drive and all ready to work when doing regular walks, I just want her to walk with loose leash without stopping every 5 metres to sniff and not pulling (shes not a heavy puller in normal walk situations though)/not keeping the leash straight when walking. .


From your original post... " On command I allow her stop and sniff, then I stop and let her go and sniff as she pleases and I just follow."

It might be that you are training the dog to do exactly what it is doing...as you are allowing the dog to sniff as you follow the dog as an intended reward but perhaps the frequency of allowing the dog to follow its nose as the intended reward is gumming up the works. I believe that a simple walk ( no pulling or scent tracking ) needs to be treated as an obedience skill in the beginning. I somewhat did what you are describing but from the way you describe it " without stopping every 5 metres to sniff " was where my approach was different. My dog has a heck of a nose and it used to get in the way of our basic "walk" as she wanted to do what your dog is doing. But, I just didn't allow it during the structured part of our walk. If she fell out of the heel position she was given a freebie via a heel command...if she didn't comply, she was corrected back into the heel slot. I just didn't allow her to follow her nose during our structured "walk"...I guess I was setting precedent...and she figured it out. At that phase, I clearly remember per the advice of some forum members, that the entire walk does not need to be so rigorous especially if the dog minds its manners during the structured portion of the walk. So, the reward for my dog staying in proper heel position was a session at a field, where I allowed my dog to follow her nose....I did make corrections for any excessive pulling but never for the direction she chose. I think my dog learned that if she maintained a proper heel position for 10-15 minutes, she would be allowed to follow her nose eventually. I also remember ....when we would get closer to this field, she knew what was most likely going to happen and this is when she would be most apt to break from the heel position...those last 20 yards, sometimes took an incredibly long time to travel because of her "desire" to get to the field and be released to follow her nose. But, the more she acted up, the longer it took....she figured it out but it took a lot of patience on my behalf...which I don't have a surplus of.

SuperG


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

SuperG said:


> From your original post... " On command I allow her stop and sniff, then I stop and let her go and sniff as she pleases and I just follow."
> 
> It might be that you are training the dog to do exactly what it is doing...as you are allowing the dog to sniff as you follow the dog as an intended reward but perhaps the frequency of allowing the dog to follow its nose as the intended reward is gumming up the works. I believe that a simple walk ( no pulling or scent tracking ) needs to be treated as an obedience skill in the beginning. I somewhat did what you are describing but from the way you describe it " without stopping every 5 metres to sniff " was where my approach was different. My dog has a heck of a nose and it used to get in the way of our basic "walk" as she wanted to do what your dog is doing. But, I just didn't allow it during the structured part of our walk. If she fell out of the heel position she was given a freebie via a heel command...if she didn't comply, she was corrected back into the heel slot. I just didn't allow her to follow her nose during our structured "walk"...I guess I was setting precedent...and she figured it out. At that phase, I clearly remember per the advice of some forum members, that the entire walk does not need to be so rigorous especially if the dog minds its manners during the structured portion of the walk. So, the reward for my dog staying in proper heel position was a session at a field, where I allowed my dog to follow her nose....I did make corrections for any excessive pulling but never for the direction she chose. I think my dog learned that if she maintained a proper heel position for 10-15 minutes, she would be allowed to follow her nose eventually. I also remember ....when we would get closer to this field, she knew what was most likely going to happen and this is when she would be most apt to break from the heel position...those last 20 yards, sometimes took an incredibly long time to travel because of her "desire" to get to the field and be released to follow her nose. But, the more she acted up, the longer it took....she figured it out but it took a lot of patience on my behalf...which I don't have a surplus of.
> 
> SuperG


Thanks. This makes sense. I will try to lower the frequency of allowing the dog to go sniff and more strict "obedience" walk. Its really annoying when her nose is on the ground everywhere (great dog in tracking ) or stops the every 5 metres, even if I "drag" her to follow me, she gets the few seconds of chance to sniff the spot and that seem to be rewarding. I also want her to know when its ok and not, that is something that probably has been confusing for her I think.

Do you remember how long it took for you to achieve all this? Did you do long walks? And did you use the same command as in competition heeling obedience (dont know if your are competing but..)?

In training sessions (not regular walks) in obedience I am training on strict heeling but gotta be very carefully when to reward so it doesnt blow the correct position, still a work in progress. I would like to use a completely different word for walking heeling so that I dont have to check her if she is in correct position and not rewarding anything bad at this point. I dont even need her to be in a super correct position when walking as I need her to be in this competing ob training. For some its maybe stupid to have two different words, but does anyone actually have it? I think even the "let´s go" should do it?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Factor said:


> Do you remember how long it took for you to achieve all this? *We achieved this over a span of time, probably close to a few months because it all started with a forging dog that was dog reactive besides wanting to follow her nose.
> 
> * Did you do long walks? *LOL, if my memory serves, some of our "walks" barely made it to the end of the street I live on in the beginning because of my ineptness coupled with the distractions of life outside the house/backyard. Those "walks" lasted an eternity it seemed like because it tested my patience but I was determined to not cave in and just accept an unruly dog while on a walk. I'm pretty sure some of my neighbors thought I was the neighborhood drunk as I rarely walked a straight course during this period as I was constantly changing direction, starting and stopping, left leg step- aways and right leg step-aways and doing many an about face when she hinted she was about to follow her nose. Our "walks" during that phase were entirely an exercise in obedience and patience but most always culminated with that nose session/play at the field or park.
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Loose leash walking is less about treats and rewards than it is about using leash pressure appropriately and in a way that incentivizes the dog to not pull or even to walk with you on a certain side or position. 

People train their dogs to pull. If you give me a puppy or adult dog that has never been on a leash or even one that hasn't been leash walked long I can have them walking at my side loose leash inside of one or two sessions in public with no strong aversives without treats or rewards just by communicating what I want through the leash.

People go wrong because they use leashes to restrain a dog instead of communicate with the dog and as a result their dogs condition to pull them because sometimes when the owner isn't paying attention they get what they want. On top of that the constant leash pressure the owner exerts on the dog causes opposition reflex and encourages the dog to pull. Dogs that pull like sled dogs on leashes were inadvertently trained by their owners to do so.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Loose leash walking is less about treats and rewards than it is about using leash pressure appropriately and in a way that incentivizes the dog to not pull or even to walk with you on a certain side or position.
> 
> *People train their dogs to pull. If you give me a puppy or adult dog that has never been on a leash or even one that hasn't been leash walked long I can have them walking at my side loose leash inside of one or two sessions* in public with no strong aversives without treats or rewards just by communicating what I want through the leash.
> 
> People go wrong because they use leashes to restrain a dog instead of communicate with the dog and as a result their dogs condition to pull them because sometimes when the owner isn't paying attention they get what they want. On top of that the constant leash pressure the owner exerts on the dog causes opposition reflex and encourages the dog to pull. Dogs that pull like sled dogs on leashes were inadvertently trained by their owners to do so.


:thumbup: Yes yes yes!


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

More than one way to skin a cat


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah but reinforcing with treats won't help when your lack of leash skills is teaching the dog to do the exact opposite of what you teach in a session in the real world.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Factor said:


> Thanks. You dont, by any chance, remember in what threads these things were discussed?
> 
> Otherwise I tug with my dog as an reward. Tugs and balls means everything for her. I also use a word like "ready!?" when we start training obedience for example. I also always have a toy with me in my other pocket which I use if we stop to do some obedience. I also let her carry toy the whole walk sometime (started another thread some time ago about this).
> 
> I have difficulties atm to connect these two kinds of training though, because the dog doesnt have to be in drive and all ready to work when doing regular walks, I just want her to walk with loose leash without stopping every 5 metres to sniff and not pulling (shes not a heavy puller in normal walk situations though)/not keeping the leash straight when walking. I think I undestand what you meant though. Perhaps in the very end when I have gotten off the treats (with method as the member above posted?) I can simply give the tug as an reward, but that doesnt mean she can suddenly break the behaviour the rest of the walk..


This is what I like to do. I only reward a calm sit right next to me. Doesn't even have to be at the same time as a walk. Its just feeding in that position, a general this is a good place. I shorten up the leash as a physical cue that its time to walk. I always start from a sit and I always end with a sit. That's where I release from for sniffing, exploring, whatever. In between everything is taught with corrections. If he stops, I keep walking and pop with the leash. If he pulls, I stop walking and pop. If he doesn't come back into position on that pop, I sit him and I move into position before we start again. 

There's a clear beginning, and end, just like any other obedience. I'm not looking for attention on me beyond keeping himself in a general position and they can do that and still relax and observe the world. Even shortened up, the leash is still loose.

This way there's no anticipation of anything, till you end the walk and give your cue that its time for play or obedience or whatever. That cue where you say "Ready" or whatever is when you are looking for the attention and anticipation of things to kick in. Then a clear end, "Done". Its very separate from just a walk that way. 

She may go through a little bit of an oh no period where she looks like a walk is the worst thing in the world, but she'll learn to relax and behave. Distance doesn't matter. Its all up to you.


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

Hi! Havent posted here since you came up with more great ideas and information about this. I can gladly tell that we are making progress and my mindset is finally clear on how I should do this. This isnt for us tossing lots of food anymore. I now require more and require her to do as I say (walk by my side) and not like "if you go by my side you will get rewarded with lots of food and hopefully "want to" walk by my side the whole walk.. ". 

I try to start with a sit and end with a sit (not always I remember this, but it gets better) and then I say "lets go.. heel", shorten leash but keeping it very loose. *Thinking a lot about how I use the leash.* I release her at some point where she can go and sniff for a while.. then back to heeling again when we move on. If she goes out of position I stop and tell her to go back in position, if not I either pop the leash or simply grab her and put her in the position. At some point when she is doing good I have rewarded with food, but this is pretty rare now, I reward her more verbally and maybe petting her when telling shes a good girl.

Sometime I have let her carry the tug, but still in position. Sometime we play, but then the walk heeling has ended and I try to tell her that with a command. 

I think she is starting to get it and its actually working very well for us! The rewards are there, but this is more requiring the dog to do as I say rather than tossing lots of food so the dog thinks its nice to be at your side walking the whole walk.. 
(even though the side should indeed be a good place, but in other ways than tossing food all the time..). I think, as in everything though, you should have patience and not let the dog cheat on you because youre tired or so, which isnt perhaps always the easiest.

Thanks people for helping me with this and clearing this out, my mind and our walks are working better now..training goes on  

Edit: Before I had this thing that she shouldnt be in any higher drive or have my attention all the time on walks, just walk and relax. This has fallen into places also, she is not really giving me the attention that way (of course she looks sometime, but still not like she is waiting or expecting me to pop out a toy anytime soon), she is just walking forward..somewhat trying to keep her position and eventually we can hopefully both just walk our walks and relax


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## GSD316 (Jan 5, 2016)

Good suggestions in this thread.


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

GSD316 said:


> Good suggestions in this thread.


Yeah I hope others will take some learning from this thread also. 

Everything on our normal walks and so are going great, still requiring her to walk by my side without going on and sniffing everywhere. Stopping, commanding and backing up/grab her if she ignores. I dont reward with lots of treats, almost never. I reward with praise, petting while sitting, play sessions or a place where she is actually allowed to sniff everything. She seem to understand this now.

*Today was one of the old stories though:*
We went into town and to a park there. There is always lots of different smells (dogs etc) and of course the sniffing and "wont give a **** about your heel command" came back while being there, sigh. Took pretty many stops and commands, backing up etc on this walk. Exhausting :smirk: Overall I think she has been before pretty great and easy walked in town and the streets there, but I guess the parks are a bit different when there is always walking lots of dogs and other smells.

I guess its just about keeping it up, having patience and not allowing unwanted behaviour anywhere + keep visiting many new places (or places where you dont go that often) and practice.. as you did a loot when she was a baby  Mine is a young dog still but gotta learn leash walking now and for all, the way I want it and not the way the dog wants it. The walks shouldnt only be for her and I should be the one controlling them, even if its a exciting place.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> "wont give a **** about your heel command"


It means for me that you didn't train in different situations with distractions + your dog is hungry for new experiences. Treats are good only at the beginning, then I change for a ball as a treat. As long as the ball in your hand at your chest - your dog should walk with you. As long as your dog knows that the ball is with you in your left pocket - he will walk with you. Make your dog ball dependent first. No dog was born to please his master, they do it for something, not for nothing. Vertually, your praising "Good boy" - is your promise of a possible play for which your dog should wait by walking on heel command. This walk is short at the beginning (of training with the ball) before you throw the ball in the area of playing, then it would be of a length of just one street before you play, and gradually becomes as long as needed and wherever it needed. Thus you train that "heel" command is not something instantaneous, but takes time, attention and ignoring distractions. I don't think that training a young dog in a new area is a good idea, you are asking for too much. For your dog it sounds like " a restaurant is not for eating but for learning to hold your folk", he gives up, decides to be a savage and gobbles the way he wants because he's hungry.


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## Factor (Oct 9, 2015)

David Taggart said:


> It means for me that you didn't train in different situations with distractions + your dog is hungry for new experiences. Treats are good only at the beginning, then I change for a ball as a treat. As long as the ball in your hand at your chest - your dog should walk with you. As long as your dog knows that the ball is with you in your left pocket - he will walk with you. Make your dog ball dependent first. No dog was born to please his master, they do it for something, not for nothing.
> 
> Vertually, your praising "Good boy" - is your promise of a possible play for which your dog should wait by walking on heel command. This walk is short at the beginning (of training with the ball) before you throw the ball in the area of playing, then it would be of a length of just one street before you play, and gradually becomes as long as needed and wherever it needed.
> 
> Thus you train that "heel" command is not something instantaneous, but takes time, attention and ignoring distractions. I don't think that training a young dog in a new area is a good idea, you are asking for too much. For your dog it sounds like " a restaurant is not for eating but for learning to hold your folk", he gives up, decides to be savage and gobbles the way he wants because he's hungry.


Thanks. I do use ball as reward and will walk beside me if I have the tug/ball in one of my hands. I dont want to always have the tug/ball in my hand on every regular walk. But youre right, I should probably have had it this time and also rewarded more often than I did. In proper competition heeling the dog can heel with these distractions and even more when having the toy under my arm and even a short time in my pocket. But thats with built drive, completely focus on me. I dont want that drive and focus on me on our regular walks.

I dont agree though that the distractions/new place was too much, but the distance and lack of reward probably was, yes. The dog is soon to be 1 year and 5 months and should be able to work in that distraction. If I cant train in new areas that would mean I cant take my dog to places at all, other than our regular walks right outside town (which pretty much have almost the same distractions) when this in fact is about walking by my side on regular walks.

I will think about rewarding though, I probably didnt reward often enough today.


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