# Concerned and torn



## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.

My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.

We are feeling overwhelmed because we didn’t want “that much dog”. The person who sold us the puppy was the breeder of our first GS, only now she acts as a middle person for reputation breeders since she had health issues. So she knew us and what we wanted and even told us we had second choice early on because someone had first pick for the alpha female in the litter (can’t imagine what she’s like!).

We feel very torn because we are not quitters, but there is the option of letting her go to someone who will love training her. We’re worried that’s all we’d spend our time doing, specially my hb. His life would basically become a full time job training her. On top of that she is a real barker as a dog with a tough temperament, and our neighbor had given us trouble before with our previous one barking. She could be a fabulous dog in 2 years. But we’re worried that she’s too much for us. We feel caught and don’t know what to expect and what to decide. Any advice from those of you who have much experience?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The biting at this age is kind of normal. I know it doesn't seem like it should be. I have had puppies for 15 years -- the first litter I bred was 15 years ago, and I don't remember ever getting bloody from a pup this age. But my sister brought Kai over yesterday and he is 4 months, he grabbed my hand twice yesterday and got blood. His full brother is a police dog. So he has that. I am not used to my dogs eating me. But the breed is a breed that has teeth and is bred to guard against human and animal predators so they have to have that ability/willingness to bite. And yet the pups I raise generally do not bite me. Even the police dog, I had him until he was 10 months old. Never bit me. But this little guy did. So something, there is some disconnect there. 

Maybe if you could prioritize what is most important for your trainer to work on first, maybe then you will be able to train this pup and have that great dog at age 2. But without the scars. I think my sister, who has Kai, needs to get this grabbing of hands under control right away. If that is one of your major concerns, then maybe you can work with the trainer on that first. Biting does generally go down. I doubt the dog is going to act that way at 9 months. I would hate to see you miss out on a great dog if you can just get some of the troublesome behaviors under control.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I would love to get my hands on a a dog like that.....post video of her attempting/biting if you can


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

WNGD said:


> I would love to get my hands on a a dog like that.....post video of her attempting/biting if you can


Ah ah, I will work on it!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What is your exercise regimen like for her? What do you do to tire her/play?


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> What is your exercise regimen like for her? What do you do to tire her/play?


Around 7:30am after feeding her, my hb takes her out for a little walk in the field for exploring, then plays with a flirt pole, then trains 10 minutes or so (sit/down/stay/come) in a fun way, then plays more (fliet pole/jute tug). Then home where I play inside with her with balls, squeeky toys, before heading to work. My hb repeats what he does around 11:30, before her lunch, or might take her to places for exposure (town, school neighborhood, horse pens etc). Then might take her out around 3pm for a mini stroll. Then another play/training session, sometimes I do it, or both of us. I think if anything, we might be overdoing it. She’s pretty tired lately in the evening.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sindyeli said:


> Around 7:30am after feeding her, my hb takes her out for a little walk in the field for exploring, then plays with a flirt pole, then trains 10 minutes or so (sit/down/stay/come) in a fun way, then plays more (fliet pole/jute tug). Then home where I play inside with her with balls, squeeky toys, before heading to work. My hb repeats what he does around 11:30, before her lunch, or might take her to places for exposure (town, school neighborhood, horse pens etc). Then might take her out around 3pm for a mini stroll. Then another play/training session, sometimes I do it, or both of us. I think if anything, we might be overdoing it. She’s pretty tired lately in the evening.


What do you do to teach her to settle? How does she settle? Is she always amped up?


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

selzer said:


> The biting at this age is kind of normal. I know it doesn't seem like it should be. I have had puppies for 15 years -- the first litter I bred was 15 years ago, and I don't remember ever getting bloody from a pup this age. But my sister brought Kai over yesterday and he is 4 months, he grabbed my hand twice yesterday and got blood. His full brother is a police dog. So he has that. I am not used to my dogs eating me. But the breed is a breed that has teeth and is bred to guard against human and animal predators so they have to have that ability/willingness to bite. And yet the pups I raise generally do not bite me. Even the police dog, I had him until he was 10 months old. Never bit me. But this little guy did. So something, there is some disconnect there.
> 
> Maybe if you could prioritize what is most important for your trainer to work on first, maybe then you will be able to train this pup and have that great dog at age 2. But without the scars. I think my sister, who has Kai, needs to get this grabbing of hands under control right away. If that is one of your major concerns, then maybe you can work with the trainer on that first. Biting does generally go down. I doubt the dog is going to act that way at 9 months. I would hate to see you miss out on a great dog if you can just get some of the troublesome behaviors under control.


Good to know but it’s not just the biting. She is a puller and even though my hb trains her slowly to walk, she is determined to eat everything in sight, ell/deer poop, rocks, pine cones, so how fo your socialize/expose a dog when you have to monitor her every step?


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you do to teach her to settle? How does she settle? Is she always amped up?


We give her a kong or a huge bone to gnaw out of her crate, which she’s happy to do. She’s usually pretty amped up when awake, but will self entertain with her toys for a little while. We do “crate time” with a treat and she’s good with her nylabone for a bit. Once she becomes super bity and kookoo, we know it’s her time to rest in her crate and she falls asleep quick. Any better things to do, in your opinion?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sindyeli said:


> Good to know but it’s not just the biting. She is a puller and even though my hb trains her slowly to walk, she is determined to eat everything in sight, ell/deer poop, rocks, pine cones, so how fo your socialize/expose a dog when you have to monitor her every step?


To me these things all sound like what you'll have to deal with with any puppy you get. What is it you hope to gain by trading her in for another puppy? Any puppy you get will require 2 yrs and more of training! Maybe you can and should find an older dog...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sindyeli said:


> Good to know but it’s not just the biting. She is a puller and even though my hb trains her slowly to walk, she is determined to eat everything in sight, ell/deer poop, rocks, pine cones, so how fo your socialize/expose a dog when you have to monitor her every step?


Most puppies pull, lots of puppies eat rocks and anything else they can get their teeth on. Whatever puppy you get is going to have a personality. I suppose there are some pups that are dumb as rocks and will be slow and uninterested in anything but what you are trying to tell them. A German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be intelligent, which means they are going to be curious and explore. This means their teeth are going to go onto a variety of things, they are also going to be in a hurry to go from here to there. There is someone on here that has a puppy that pees all over itself and everything else whenever it sees someone. Maybe you can trade puppies. That one might do better with you as you want to go slow and maybe could handle that kind of a mess better than this one. The point is, that all puppies have something that is going to drive someone crazy. You may be frustrated with your puppy pulling, while another person is frustrated because their puppy doesn't want to go out of the yard on a walk. You are frustrated with the nipping while another person may be frustrated with their puppies being afraid of anything new, a garbage can in the wrong place, a rock, whatever. You may be frustrated with your puppy eating everything it can get close enough to, while someone else might be beside themselves because their puppy can't gain weight. 

Here are some other issues people have with puppies:
Afraid of storms
House training
Fixated with shadows or lights
Dog reactive
Refusing to walk on lead
Refusing to poop on lead
Puts toys in water bowl -- I had someone return a puppy for this. 
Prey Drive 
Won't leave the resident cats alone
No off-switch
Food aggression

Running out of gas here but I am sure there are many more. The thing is, most of these things are/can be because of the handling or made worse by the handling. What worked with Dog A, isn't necessarily going to work with Dog B, because they are individuals. We have to grow with each puppy. We need to let each puppy we have teach us how best to train/handle dogs. We need to mold our training/leadership/handling to the temperament/personality of the dog in front of us. And we have to understand that we have a critter, a live being with a mind of its own, not a robot. 

If you truly don't believe you are capable of handling a 13 week old puppy and get it turned around, then take your trainer up and get this pup into hands that want a pup just like it. Maybe reconsider what kind of dog breed is most suitable to your circumstances and temperament, and maybe choose a different kind of dog. Because it matters what pups experience within their new homes, it is almost impossible for a breeder to know for sure at 7 or 8 weeks what puppy will be right for you.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

There's also the teenage/adolescent phase...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Or hey, just owning a dog!!!

Not trying to be harsh, but you guys should think seriously about the commitment of getting a puppy before doing so again! They all need this kind of guidance, if you're not up for it, just don't. If you are, keep the puppy u have, she sounds fabulous!


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## 44eyes (May 17, 2021)

You’re going to spend 2 years if not more Training any dog you get (assuming you don’t just want one that listens to you some of the time) so take what the trainer said with a grain of salt. 

A lot of what you mention is typical puppy behavior. I’m sure Maia is spectacular but she doesn’t sound out of the ordinary. You’ll probably have similar issues with any puppy as they all teethe. They have to learn bite inhibition so teach what’s ok and what’s not. My pup also drew blood at first. Then we handfed his kibble while practicing commands, said Gentle whenever he went for the food and yelled OUCH very very loudly when it felt too rough. Now we use gentle even when not feeding and if he doesn’t let up it’s a timeout. 

Also redirect redirect redirect puppies need to chew, you choose what. 

If all else fails I clamp his mouth shut for a few seconds every time he tries to go for my hands. After a couple of times of this he usually realizes there’s got to be a more fun game than this. I only do this when he can’t be crated for timeout but the few times I have it’s been effective in the moment. 

Somethings that help me a lot is 1) remembering that puppies need waaaay more sleep then they let on, don’t be shy about enforcing naps and 2) enjoy the process of having a puppy, take lots of pics, it’ll be over before you know it and when you come out the other end with an amazing dog you’ll forget you were ever this frustrated!


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

Sounds like you have an amazing puppy. I think you are feeling overwhelmed and tired. My pup was way more than I expected to be handling. She barked, pulled, screeched, bit, turned into a murderous fiend at witching hour. It was a lot to deal with. 

It gets easier. Rather you become a better handler. Use your trainer, join a club. Yes it's expensive, but you'll soak up information.

My 'pup' is 14 months now and is the joy of my life.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Could you share your pups pedigree? You may get some insight from that.

Your puppy sounds so normal to me and I’m kinda appalled by the trainers talk and unethical behavior. She saw a good dog in front of her and wow, she already knows a couple of ppl who would be kind enough to take her of your hands because, you know, you are not capable and there are only training nightmares ahead of you.

She’s not the only trainer in town, and let those looking for freebie dogs find a breeder, shell out thousands and go through the potty training etc by themselves and not prey on others like they do.

ETA: Also remember, you are a human, they are dogs. Training dogs is not rocket science, it’s been done for centuries. Training dogs with good nerves and good drive is easy and enjoyable. It’s work, yes, but you are guaranteed results and great outcome and a dog of your dreams. Your choice of course. 

Also, your puppy seems overstimulated all the time. Slow down.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> To me these things all sound like what you'll have to deal with with any puppy you get. What is it you hope to gain by trading her in for another puppy? Any puppy you get will require 2 yrs and more of training! Maybe you can and should find an older dog...


We’re not looking into trading for another puppy. We’re simply wondering if her behavior is normal and other posters’ comment have been helpful to understand that it is. Our first GSD was not difficult, so it seems fair that we feel challenged.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

selzer said:


> Most puppies pull, lots of puppies eat rocks and anything else they can get their teeth on. Whatever puppy you get is going to have a personality. I suppose there are some pups that are dumb as rocks and will be slow and uninterested in anything but what you are trying to tell them. A German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be intelligent, which means they are going to be curious and explore. This means their teeth are going to go onto a variety of things, they are also going to be in a hurry to go from here to there. There is someone on here that has a puppy that pees all over itself and everything else whenever it sees someone. Maybe you can trade puppies. That one might do better with you as you want to go slow and maybe could handle that kind of a mess better than this one. The point is, that all puppies have something that is going to drive someone crazy. You may be frustrated with your puppy pulling, while another person is frustrated because their puppy doesn't want to go out of the yard on a walk. You are frustrated with the nipping while another person may be frustrated with their puppies being afraid of anything new, a garbage can in the wrong place, a rock, whatever. You may be frustrated with your puppy eating everything it can get close enough to, while someone else might be beside themselves because their puppy can't gain weight.
> 
> Here are some other issues people have with puppies:
> Afraid of storms
> ...


All good honest information, thanks. What gives us hope is working with the trainer, and the fact that we did train our first GSD on our own and he turned out into a wonderful dog. This puppy is different, clearly, and yes, the question is obviously can we handle her. We very much want so but it does worry us that we may not because of her temperament.
That said, I heard a GSD reputable owner say that even dogs with a police dog temperament can turn into really sweet dogs.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Biscuit said:


> Sounds like you have an amazing puppy. I think you are feeling overwhelmed and tired. My pup was way more than I expected to be handling. She barked, pulled, screeched, bit, turned into a murderous fiend at witching hour. It was a lot to deal with.
> 
> It gets easier. Rather you become a better handler. Use your trainer, join a club. Yes it's expensive, but you'll soak up information.
> 
> My 'pup' is 14 months now and is the joy of my life.


Thank you for your comment, it’s very helpful and so help us! We do really prefer to keep her!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I put in 3 years working on my high drive dog to get him where I wanted him, and then another year just because. It was more expensive than an 8 week park obedience class but well worth the time and aggravation. I’ve had many GSDs, both from breeders and rescues. They all seem to mellow out naturally around age 3. My WL calmed down at 24 months. I don’t see anything wrong with your trainer telling you 2 years of training. Training doesnt mean a full time job. Some days I spent an hour or so working on skills, other days ten minutes at a time when he was younger. The most useful skill I taught was Place.

Your dog is a perfect age for you to become @David Winners. Read every post and watch every video.








Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


Tentative name is Valor




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> Could you share your pups pedigree? You may get some insight from that.
> 
> Your puppy sounds so normal to me and I’m kinda appalled by the trainers talk and unethical behavior. She saw a good dog in front of her and wow, she already knows a couple of ppl who would be kind enough to take her of your hands because, you know, you are not capable and there are only training nightmares ahead of you.
> 
> ...


Noted about slowing down.

We trust the trainer. Her specialty IS German Shepherds. Her disabled veteran husband has a 7 year old guide GSD. And she has a puppy GSD herself. I know it’s not at all what you said but more about warning my hb that it’s going to be very challenging to train Maia and wants to make sure he’s aware of that. Perhaps her mistake was to tell us she knows several people who would love to have dog like that, although she didn't imply that we surrender her. But yes, that got us thinking. Now we feel more that we want to ignore that last comment. We committed to have Maia, we don't want to give her up.

thanks for the other comments. We are not quitters and we want the best for her so it’s fair to ask ourselves whether we can do this. I know we can.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> I put in 3 years working on my high drive dog to get him where I wanted him, and then another year just because. It was more expensive than an 8 week park obedience class but well worth the time and aggravation. I’ve had many GSDs, both from breeders and rescues. They all seem to mellow out naturally around age 3. My WL calmed down at 24 months. I don’t see anything wrong with your trainer telling you 2 years of training. Training doesnt mean a full time job. Some days I spent an hour or so working on skills, other days ten minutes at a time when he was younger. The most useful skill I taught was Place.
> 
> Your dog is a perfect age for you to become @David Winners. Read every post and watch every video.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comment. That's what we need to read more. Basically we need to brace ourselves for a tough 2 years, maybe 3, but we know we can do it.
Funny you mention David, he's already commented on some question I had and was very helpful @David Winners


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

That’s good you trust the trainer, I think. Im different, I am my dogs advocate and do not trust any trainer just based on words or “reputation”, I expect them to earn my consideration of their advice and my respect. Just having a GSD puppy themselves and telling me that training will be difficult based on seeing my 12 weeks old pup would not be sufficient for me. We are all different though and you know yourself and your situation the best. 

I still hope she explained why she thinks it will be very challenging to train your pup, and gave you some pointers or tools to start the foundation work immediately.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I would much rather see an energetic and confident puppy as a family pet vs. an energetic but fearful puppy. 

We train pet dogs. Our current clients include an older couple that got a working line GSD as a pet, the dog's parents are PSA dogs. He is energetic, confident, stable, has good food/toy drives, and friendly to their grandkids. He definitely has enough drives to do club-level sport, but he is happy as a pet. Owners keep him active by exercising/training him daily with either tug games or fetch. We taught them tracking as a way to burn his mental energy and the dog loves it, he is natural at it. 

We've been working with them off and on since the dog was 2 months old, he is now 1.5 years old and is maturing into a great companion dog. It will take 2-3 years of effort with any puppy, if it's a puppy with a lot of fear issues, it will take 2-3 years of effort plus life-long management. Sounds like you guys got a good puppy, have fun with her!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sindyeli said:


> Perhaps her mistake was to tell us *she knows several people who would love to have dog like that*, although she didn't imply that we surrender her. But yes, that got us thinking. Now we feel more that we want to ignore that last comment.


Perhaps this comment was made due to your concerns and to reinforce the trainers thoughts that you have a nice pup vs suggesting rehoming?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you need to look at this from another perspective. It may help you through times that are more challenging for you and the dog.

You have the opportunity to spend a couple years shaping the dog to meet the desires of your family. That doesn't mean 40 hours a week. Regimented training schedules. Timelines. Pressure to succeed. Training puppies is fun for everyone involved. If it is not fun, you're doing it wrong. 

Get out and have fun. Throw in a little training along the way when the dog is on the right frame of mind to do so. 3 good recalls over an hour is progress! Those good reps will stick because they are fun and rewarding. 

I don't think a good pet needs a lot of formal training. They need to walk on a loose leash, come when called, stay when asked, and have good manners with people and other dogs. Almost everything on that list is achieved through setting the dog up for success and rewarding good behaviors. Later on, you can add some corrections to proof commands under distraction, but right now, you are just building a relationship and creating good habits.

Puppies chew stuff, particularly when they are bored. I take them somewhere with lots of stuff to chew and explore that I don't have to replace. I also break the habit of stopping to chew every little thing by moving. I just walk and let the dog do whatever. They naturally want to be with you, so they learn good habits like following, recall, and I build fetch in there along the way.

It's not about cramming in stuff like school. OB session at 8, tug at 8:30, walk at 9. 

Just live life with your dog and include fun stuff along the way. If the things that your dog finds fun and the things that you find fun are at odds, maybe you selected the wrong breed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

2 hours at the dog park this morning working on manners and OB under distraction. This mostly looked like play, not some formal training session. We did some focused heel, recall, fetch, down stay, and Nosework. Just a few reps of each when the time was right. Fetch, Nosework and heeling when he was fresh and amped up, stays and manners when he was tired.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

San said:


> I would much rather see an energetic and confident puppy as a family pet vs. an energetic but fearful puppy.
> 
> We train pet dogs. Our current clients include an older couple that got a working line GSD as a pet, the dog's parents are PSA dogs. He is energetic, confident, stable, has good food/toy drives, and friendly to their grandkids. He definitely has enough drives to do club-level sport, but he is happy as a pet. Owners keep him active by exercising/training him daily with either tug games or fetch. We taught them tracking as a way to burn his mental energy and the dog loves it, he is natural at it.
> 
> We've been working with them off and on since the dog was 2 months old, he is now 1.5 years old and is maturing into a great companion dog. It will take 2-3 years of effort with any puppy, if it's a puppy with a lot of fear issues, it will take 2-3 years of effort plus life-long management. Sounds like you guys got a good puppy, have fun with her!


Thank you San, we appreciate your comments. That’s the kind we feel help, not questioning why we got a GSD. We’re not experts, have so much to learn, and we rely on others to make sure we can give this pup a great life. Ultimately that is our main concern!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Nigel said:


> Perhaps this comment was made due to your concerns and to reinforce the trainers thoughts that you have a nice pup vs suggesting rehoming?


You’re probably right, I think we might have read too much into it. i know she doesn’t really want us to part from Maia and it was a way to let us know that it will just not be easy. But there is much joy too as we do love that pup already and each day that goes by make us more attached!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I think you need to look at this from another perspective. It may help you through times that are more challenging for you and the dog.
> 
> You have the opportunity to spend a couple years shaping the dog to meet the desires of your family. That doesn't mean 40 hours a week. Regimented training schedules. Timelines. Pressure to succeed. Training puppies is fun for everyone involved. If it is not fun, you're doing it wrong.
> 
> ...


We didn’t get the wrong breed, we love this one! I think it’s because of expectations. Your post helps so much, once again. We’ll discuss this and I don’t think we’ll overdo it with the trainer. It’s just to help us train well, even though there are different ways to go about it. I’ll make sure to discuss all you mention with my hb.
And last night was the first night she slept 7 hours straight, yay!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is my experience with a WL GSD: they are not your average dog or even the average GSD. A GSD with a good drive takes at least three years to grow into his own, given that he was trained consistently and his needs were met. Getting to that point is a ton of work. If you do it right, you will have an incredible dog. If not...well, the rescues can tell you. Your puppy sounds like she has the right foundation. It is all up to you to guide her to the where you want her to be at three years. Then it is basically a "maintenance" schedule and giving him/her mental and physical challenges along the way every day to keep her content. Depending on the dog's personality, she may test you once in a while at that perfect age though.


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## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

OP 13 weeks is still very young. Mine is turning 16 weeks and the last few have been incredible in terms of changes. Hang in there - I never thought the crate tantrums, howling in the car or nipping would end but they do. Well mostly the nipping has stopped lol. New challenges pop up but when you look back it’s amazing to see how far you’ve come. My husband is sometimes aggravated and impatient but he forgets our last dog was 11 when he passed so the challenges of puppyhood are long forgotten. He also forgot our last dog took about 2 years to settle into the wonderful dog he ended up as. It sounds like you’re reaching out because you need help and you’ve gotten great advice. With patience, the right help with training and consistency you’ll have a wonderful dog.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

cagal said:


> OP 13 weeks is still very young. Mine is turning 16 weeks and the last few have been incredible in terms of changes. Hang in there - I never thought the crate tantrums, howling in the car or nipping would end but they do. Well mostly the nipping has stopped lol. New challenges pop up but when you look back it’s amazing to see how far you’ve come. My husband is sometimes aggravated and impatient but he forgets our last dog was 11 when he passed so the challenges of puppyhood are long forgotten. He also forgot our last dog took about 2 years to settle into the wonderful dog he ended up as. It sounds like you’re reaching out because you need help and you’ve gotten great advice. With patience, the right help with training and consistency you’ll have a wonderful dog.


You are right, we reached out for the reasons you mentioned. Your posts is amongst many helpful ones. We believed in her, and after reading some other posters’ puppy issues, our seem now not so bad. We believe in her and us! Thank you fior taking the time to share.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sindyeli said:


> We give her a kong or a huge bone to gnaw out of her crate, which she’s happy to do. She’s usually pretty amped up when awake, but will self entertain with her toys for a little while. We do “crate time” with a treat and she’s good with her nylabone for a bit. Once she becomes super bity and kookoo, we know it’s her time to rest in her crate and she falls asleep quick. Any better things to do, in your opinion?


It sounds like you have the active part of work with her down. I think you just need to work on teaching her to settle and relax when nothing is going on. Most people use a place command where they send the dog and have them relax. I just use the kennel and the kennel command instead of adding another one. I’m able to get my dogs to stay there with the door open. When they come out they are usually calmer and more relaxed. If not I will send them back. There’s a bunch of biting threads and threads on teaching loose leash walking. I would look for some of those for advice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

One day you will miss the 'knuckle-head-stage'. It's the reason we get sucked into another pup and then be back here


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> One day you will miss the 'knuckle-head-stage'. It's the reason we get sucked into another pup and then be back here


😀 you are so right! Snd I’ve told several times my hb to enjoy the puppy phase with all its facets because it’s short-lived.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I too am curious of your pup's pedigree. Good luck with your little land shark!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

NadDog24 said:


> I too am curious of your pup's pedigree. Good luck with your little land shark!


Will post tonight.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP -- it does sound like you got more dog than you were expecting and, yes, a dog many of us would be happy to have. A total PIA little pistol. You might want to drop by a nearby IPO/IGP whatever the initials are today club to see what you have to look forward to. Training is time consuming and when I started down this path 11 years ago it seemed like there was something more I needed to buy every week. Or some other thing that took a few bucks. 

There is no shame to saying "too much dog" and no shame to bucking up to the situation and working with the pup. She'll be amazing.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

Sindyeli said:


> We trust the trainer. Her specialty IS German Shepherds. Her disabled veteran husband has a 7 year old guide GSD. And she has a puppy GSD herself.


Eh, not all trainers are created equal. I trained all of my other large working class dogs myself. But my first GSD is WL and proved to be a fearless, drivey jerk. So at 6 months old I sought out some GSD training help. It was thru the local AKC GSD club. They were all very experienced GSD owners... of showlines. After 2 sessions it was clear that being a purely positive treat dispenser just did not match my dog's communication needs. I found a balance trainer who works with Border Patrol and the police. We visited her for an hour every other Saturday for about a year. It was invaluable. But I think my husband needs a tuneup...


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

*@NadDog24 
@GSD07 *

I don’t understand much of it, but here is the bloodline since you asked:

*Maia’s pedigree*
_Sire: _V 27 BSZS 2019, SG3 BSZS 2018 Kosmo v.d. Piste - Trophe IGP1
_Dam: _Erzabet von Rumentall

*Kosmo’s parents:*
_Sire:_ VA6 BSZS ‘19 Queen von deer Piste Trophe IPO3
_Dam: _VA5 USCA Sieger2015, SG32 BSZS JKL 2011 Hilary von der Piste Trophe IPO2
*Sire grandparents:*
_Sire:_ VA1 BSZS ‘15, ’16, -ITA ‘15 Ballack von deer Brucknerallee IPO3
_Dam: _SG19 BSZS ‘12 Ofra von deer Piste Trophe AD, IPO3
*Dam grandparents:*
_Sire:_ V, (SG5 BSZS JHKR 2009) Nelson von Frankengold SCHH3
_Dam: _V 42 BSZS 2010 Ronda von Fichtenschlag SCHH2

*Erzabet‘s parents:*
_Sire: _V1 Vegas Sremski BH, IPO1, IGP2
_Dam:_ V Malta II Feetback IPO1
*Sire grandparents:*
_Sire:_ VA1(ITA) Groovy di Casa Massarelli IPO3
_Dam: _SG1 SRB (JHKL) V1 Roma Sremska IPO1
*Dam grandparents:*
_Sire:_ V19 BSZS 2013 Dasty von Melanchton IPO3
_Dam: _SG! Arijana von Sternzeit IPO1

I’ll add that all dogs were tested and free of elbow/hip diplasia (various tests results like HD-SV etc.)


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thank you so much @Sindyeli! I am no familiar with these lines, unfortunately, so hopefully other knowledgeable people give a good feedback. It does look they are all titled and health tested and your breeder knew what they were doing!


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

@Sindyeli, our dogs are about the same age now, Tony is 14 weeks old this week, and I understand what you mean when you say that your first GSD was easier to train, because I am in the same boat, but for the opposite reason. Dexter is a WL dog with a much higher drive than my current puppy, grandpa was a PD, but that's exactly what made it easier for me to train him because he wanted to be busy, he wanted to learn, and was very eager. I had to show him things once or twice before he figured them out reliably. My only issue with him was mouthing which lasted until he was 4-5 months old. He never drew blood, as I taught him how to mouth gently. (Everybody has their own methods here, do what works for you.) My current SL puppy does not have the same kind of drive, the mouthing has stopped, but it's not as easy to teach him things either and it takes a longer time, but we are getting there.

My point is that every puppy or dog is different, and I have to remind myself that my older dog is not "better" or "smarter", I just have to find different ways to work with the current puppy and challenge myself. 5 minutes of flirt pole fun equals an hourlong nap with my current puppy, Dexter at the same age would have laughed at that. Food works wonders for my current puppy, and it never did for Dexter who just wanted to play ball and physical affection instead. They're different dogs, nothing more or less.

I think there is some great advice in the previous answers. I also don't see how the trainer knows that it will take you an X amount of years to train your dog, and owning a GSD does not make you a better or more experienced trainer, and it sounds like an excessively long time to me. Training your dog never ends, but I expect all my dogs to be well mannered by 6 months of age, not perfect, but well behaved when I take them out and while they're in the house with me, and with reliable recall. You have to be comfortable with the trainer, but I would look for another one. This is how I feel after reading the comment, I am not telling you what to do.

@Bearshandler mentioned settling down, and I could not agree more. One of the most important things to learn for a dog, especially a high drive dog, is how to settle. Every day, I spend about 5-15 minutes sitting on the floor with all 3 dogs in the down position (the dogs - not me) to teach the puppy the "settle" command, and when we're done, everybody gets a nice treat (I don't). 

Your dog sounds normal to me minus the biting that draws blood, but that's something to continue working on consistently, everything else sounds like normal puppy behavior to me. I would make sure that everybody in the house uses the same approach to training, especially when it comes to biting, so that one person doesn't make it a fun activity for the dog, while everyone else is training the dog not to bite.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Sitz&Platz said:


> @Sindyeli, our dogs are about the same age now, Tony is 14 weeks old this week, and I understand what you mean when you say that your first GSD was easier to train, because I am in the same boat, but for the opposite reason. Dexter is a WL dog with a much higher drive than my current puppy, grandpa was a PD, but that's exactly what made it easier for me to train him because he wanted to be busy, he wanted to learn, and was very eager. I had to show him things once or twice before he figured them out reliably. My only issue with him was mouthing which lasted until he was 4-5 months old. He never drew blood, as I taught him how to mouth gently. (Everybody has their own methods here, do what works for you.) My current SL puppy does not have the same kind of drive, the mouthing has stopped, but it's not as easy to teach him things either and it takes a longer time, but we are getting there.
> 
> My point is that every puppy or dog is different, and I have to remind myself that my older dog is not "better" or "smarter", I just have to find different ways to work with the current puppy and challenge myself. 5 minutes of flirt pole fun equals an hourlong nap with my current puppy, Dexter at the same age would have laughed at that. Food works wonders for my current puppy, and it never did for Dexter who just wanted to play ball and physical affection instead. They're different dogs, nothing more or less.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all this, will definitely research the settling training !


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

My puppy is 13.5 weeks old and I am scratched and torn, bruised and battered from my elbows down to my finger tips. Most of my ouchies have been from my pup targeting on a toy in my hand and tripping over his feet and missing the toy. Some of the ouchies have been due to poor timing on my part and a few have been from him just losing his self control and nipping.

I don't feel bad when I have to crate him or put him in the x-pen to settle. This is just part of it. They are still such babies. We need to teach them how to self regulate. I am home sick today and feel horrible that I am not up to taking him out to hike. But there will be days like this occasionally for his entire life, so this is also a training opportunity. I can't always be the cruise director he has come to know and love.

One of the things that I really liked from @David Winners when he was first working with his pup last year was how much exploration they did. I have really tried to replicate that with my puppy. And I like the results I am getting. I really haven't taught him anything, but we had our first puppy class last weekend and my guy was the best behaved. He was the youngest by several months and his focus was unbelievable. Nice straight sits, which I had never really taught him. But I have worked on luring him into position for brief moments while we are out hiking or just walking to the park and back and that came in handy. He couldn't have cared less about the two other dogs or their people, although I have never done anything to to actively work or play around other dogs. His first class made my bloody arms worth it! 

So, as another puppy raiser with a shark toothed, 13 week old puppy? It gets better (I think?). This is a time when their little brains are soaking everything up. We will reap the benefits. Eventually. Probably. And your husband might find training one of the best hobbies out there. 
Sheilah


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

IMO, some of the best qualities people seek from an adult German Shepherd express themselves wildly in the pups. If she has nerves of steel you might be surprised how well she matures. If she's high drive, you might have to rein her in for quite a while. But, I would concentrate on "focus" "focus" "focus" now, and you'll be be rewarded as the pup matures and longer strides start manifesting.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

sitstay said:


> My puppy is 13.5 weeks old and I am scratched and torn, bruised and battered from my elbows down to my finger tips. Most of my ouchies have been from my pup targeting on a toy in my hand and tripping over his feet and missing the toy. Some of the ouchies have been due to poor timing on my part and a few have been from him just losing his self control and nipping.
> 
> I don't feel bad when I have to crate him or put him in the x-pen to settle. This is just part of it. They are still such babies. We need to teach them how to self regulate. I am home sick today and feel horrible that I am not up to taking him out to hike. But there will be days like this occasionally for his entire life, so this is also a training opportunity. I can't always be the cruise director he has come to know and love.
> 
> ...


It’s a great idea but for now exploration has been challenging since our puppy will only be out of the vaccination period in mid-june. She’ll be 17-wk old then. I didn’t ask the vet why but will. There are options, of course, downtown etc but we cannot wait until she can go everywhere and finally have real fun adventures.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I have taken every pup I raised into the world starting about a few days after I got them. None have come down with any illness. But I made sure asking the vet clinic if there were cases of Parvo or Distemper around and avoided places where dogs gather. I also didn't put them on the clinic's floor to limit contamination and kept them in the car's crate until it was our turn. I put them on a blanket from home on the table for being vaccinated and examined. Keeping them home can also give a false sense of security, especially if you have a yard. Who knows what passes by at night, carrying all kinds of disease. Raccoons can carry Distemper, Coyotes can carry Parvo etc. You don't have to overdo socialization but they need to see the world in small increments before they are 14 - 16 weeks old. These are my 2 cents.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, I have taken every pup I raised into the world starting about a few days after I got them. None have come down with any illness. But I made sure asking the vet clinic if there were cases of Parvo or Distemper around and avoided places where dogs gather. I also didn't put them on the clinic's floor to limit contamination and kept them in the car's crate until it was our turn. I put them on a blanket from home on the table for being vaccinated and examined. Keeping them home can also give a false sense of security, especially if you have a yard. Who knows what passes by at night, carrying all kinds of disease. Raccoons can carry Distemper, Coyotes can carry Parvo etc. You don't have to overdo socialization but they need to see the world in small increments before they are 14 - 16 weeks old. These are my 2 cents.


That’s what we think too. Rare cases of Parvo in the valley and neighborhood, people are educated and vaccinate their dogs. We’ve been careful though, bit not limiting to yard; still, it will be more fun once free to go anywhere.


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## packerfan (Dec 16, 2019)

I am on my second GSD. The first was easy. Typical puppy issues but nothing crazy. He was easily the best dog I have ever had. But number 2? Let me tell you - there were days I cried. A lot of days! He has been the most challenging puppy I’ve ever had! Extremely similar to what you’re dealing with. He’s almost 2 now and still not fully trained, however he’s definitely manageable now and actually becoming pretty amazing. He still can get overstimulated and can still be reactive sometimes, but he has come such a long way and I’m very glad he’s still with me. For the record, I’m not a trainer and never hired one. Just patience and consistency.


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## bgibbfan1968 (Apr 4, 2021)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


I would seriously consider rehoming her. If you don’t you risk resentment on both sides. I am sure she will be far happier in a family that can devote the needed training. I am also sure you can find a pup that better suits your needs.
Don’t think of it as quitting, you are giving her a better life than what you can give her.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would never, ever wait until 17 weeks to begin environmental socialization. I had valor in the woods and up town at 9 weeks.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

My third German Shepherd bit me all the time as a puppy. It was his way of playing rough. He drew blood so often, I kept bandages and ointment nearby when I played with him.

I tried to follow so much advice from other GSD owners, and it didn't seem to work. It was discouraging because in every other way, he was a smart, fun and sweet puppy. 

In my case, when we were together and he started playing land shark, I would get up and leave the room, with a serious look on my face. If he got a bite in, I would yell "ouch!" After a few months, the biting subsided. He turned out to be the most wonderful dog. I still miss him.


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## shebasdad (Oct 16, 2018)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


I could’ve wrote that post 2 1/2 years ago.
My wife thought our dog was mentally ill. All I can say is be consistent, consistent, consistent. Substituting toys didn’t really work good for me. If I remember correctly acting like she was hurting me seemed to do the trick yelping like a dog. Normally I wouldn’t suggest that, she just really responded to that. She calm down around eight months old. Lots of exercise every day. Long walks off leash if you can, tennis balls, frisbees, anything to keep her moving. Tug. Lots of basic training to engage her. Constantly going over all the commands three or four times a day. Good mental exercise. Now she is a very well-adjusted 2 1/2 year-old pup Who doesn’t like to stray more than 20 feet from my side.
Also she goes to doggy day care three days a week for socialization. That seems to wear her out mentally. I would characterize her as very well adjusted.


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## daven (Dec 26, 2018)

We have two gsd’s in the house atm. Mine and my son who finally bought a house and will be moving out. Both from the same breeder but completely not related. And both night and day when it comes to personality. Mine 4 years old and 3 months older than my sons sounds just like the OP’s puppy. High drive off the charts. Teething phase was brutal. I did the off leash training and she has all the tools to place and stay with awesome recall. 
Her cousin is like one poster said “dumb as a box of rocks(comparatively speaking) but still has the recall and stay capabilities and is certainly much more loving and at the same time very protective of my son and any member of the family when my son isn’t here. 
Like i said night and day.
They both love their crate time. Out of the crate they are on the clock or on duty. Once i close that crate they can relax and not have to worry about a leaf falling off a tree or bark at every car that turns around in our circle lol. 
i hope some of this rambling helps?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Sindyeli said:


> It’s a great idea but for now exploration has been challenging since our puppy will only be out of the vaccination period in mid-june. She’ll be 17-wk old then. I didn’t ask the vet why but will. There are options, of course, downtown etc but we cannot wait until she can go everywhere and finally have real fun adventures.


I wouldn't wait. This is such an important developmental window for them. I mean, be smart about it. Your pup doesn't have to meet anyone or have play dates with strangers. Just get her out. 

I really, really like what I am seeing with my pup and I haven't done much with him except get him out. Plus, it tires them out and a tired puppy is a good puppy.
Sheilah


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## SulcoPete (Sep 10, 2020)

Regarding the biting - my trainer advised me that dogs do not want to injure anyone whether it's puppymates or humans or parents. In the litter when a puppy bites too hard there's immediate feedback - and I'm not talking about punishment, but the feedback of a yelp and recoil when the littermate feels the pain of the bite. So what seemed to work well with my puppy was to respond to a bite with a gentle "ouch!" and immediately stop engaging for a few moments while the effect of what just happened is impressed on the dog. The dog should soon associate biting with injuring and a stop of play/engagement, and the behavior will stop on its own with time and patience. My pup is 9 months old now and biting is no longer a problem at all.


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## SulcoPete (Sep 10, 2020)

Also if my math is right, it sounds like you got this puppy at 7 weeks old....I was under the impression a puppy is not to be taken home until at least 8 weeks...part of what they learn is bite inhibition while they're with the mother and littermates....so you may be dealing with an effect of being removed too early. But the "ouch" thing works....just be consistent. You should be able to see it in the dog's eyes while they're figuring it out at the moment when you say "ouch!" and move away with both hands in the air as though you don't want to be near. Wait a few moments in that posture and then attempt to re-engage gently.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Watch all the Stonnie Dennis videos.


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## Isaiah54 (Jun 10, 2013)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


I have been where you are. I trained my first GSD , Isaiah , to be my service dog. It was an awesome experience. I had Isaiah for 12 years.
We brought Breeze our second GSD when Isaiah was 10. He helped train her.
We bought her from a reputable breeder. Same scenario with biting when she was a puppy, but so easy to train otherwise.
Breeze appointed herself as the ambassador of goodwill for all GSD. She loved people and was a natural tracker. We were remodeling at the time. Breeze escorted visitor with the groups of men who came to work on our house. She followed anyone who was cutting grass. She loved balls. She would greet people at our gate with her balls and put them on the top and wait for the visitor to throw it. 

I was teaching her to find me starting at 4 months. She would not ever give up. Finding people was the only thing that could replacer playing fetch with her.

I realized that her DNA was pulling toward search and rescue. I made the emotional decision to find a search and rescue handler.
for her. The man had lost his partner the year before and was waiting for “the dog.”
It was love at first sigh
Her handler is the trainer for the K9 Tramsin his state. He says that she is far beyond what he’s
She is by his side wherever he goes. At the lasagna trading, zbtee e


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## daven (Dec 26, 2018)

Great story!


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## just4mom (May 4, 2021)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


The biting is normal They are teething hard at that age. I am sending my girl Sakari to k9 off leash. It’s two weeks board and train for 2800 
You should see if there is one near you. They are amazing !!! And your girl will be well behaved after. They also train service and police dogs so they have allot of experience. Best of luck!


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## Laurie B (Jan 11, 2021)

I got my boy Hans at 9 weeks. He was a baby shark. Hands and arms like raw meat. Found a trainer, worked with him everyday. Even if for a short time. Walks twice a day. Even on walks training took place,even tho Hans didn’t realize it. Tokay Hans is 2 hrs old. Let me just say I could never ask for a better boy! He is more mine than my hubs since I spent most of the time with him. Everytime he would chew on my arms as a little guy I would yelp like a pup. Some don’t believe this method , today he is the most gentle of big boys. When he takes a treat he almost sucks it in so as not to hit his teeth on my fingers 💜. He was well worth the time , the hurts and anything else that occurred when he was a young boy. Please if you have reservations about keeping your pup, find someone who will do the work. For sure your pup will feel the emotions you give off. Best of luck to you.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

just4mom said:


> The biting is normal They are teething hard at that age. I am sending my girl Sakari to k9 off leash. It’s two weeks board and train for 2800
> You should see if there is one near you. They are amazing !!! And your girl will be well behaved after. They also train service and police dogs so they have allot of experience. Best of luck!


I would personally never leave my dog at a board and train with complete strangers and without knowing how my dog is trained when nobody is looking. Many people use it and are happy with the training, but I could never do that with any of my own dogs.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Everyone suggesting to the OP to find someone more worthy of having her dog. I don’t think the OP wants to rehome her dog to start with. If this is the case then why she has to search for someone? Her 12 wk pup needs to go back to the breeder to get placed into the best possible home, not bounced around and end up in a shelter. Is the breeder even aware of all these doubts and developments?


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## LuLuPlum (Mar 4, 2021)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


Your puppy sounds exactly like my 11 month old gsp. When we brought her home at 14 weeks old (we rescued her from an animal shelter), I think I cried everyday for the first two weeks. Lucy is our 9th shepherd but by far our most challenging. Anyone that TRIED to pet her would have teeth marks on the hands, arms, etc., and this lasted four to five months. She is still mouthy but so much better, I do have to remind her to be easy. We hired a trainer and he pretty much told us what your trainer has suggested. She has a very high prey drive (which has been a challege being we own three cats and 3 older dogs), but she has responded so well to the training program. We tracked down her breeder, who specializes in the working line breed includings the schutzhund training and competion field, and explains why she is the way she is. I just wanted to respond and say it does get so much better, and I can't imagine Lucy not in our life now. Best of luck in your decision, from Carol and Lucy .



Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...





Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


Your pup sounds so much like my 11 month old gsp, Lucy. We rescued her from an animal shelter at 14 weeks old (she had been sold for $2,000.00 also, but has a joint disorder and was returned to breeder). I think I cried the first 2 weeks after bringing her home. She is our 9th gsp, but by far as been the most challeging. Anyone that TRIED to pet her would have bite marks on hands, arms, etc. She has a very high prey drive, very determined and hard headed on leash (we have 3 cats and 3 other older dogs, so the prey thing has been difficult). We hired a trainer, who worked with her twice a week, and she has responded so well. He pretty much told us what your trainer is telling you. We also tracked down her breeder, who specializes in the working line breed, including schutzhund training and competion trials. This explains the reason she is the way she is. I just wanted to let you know, it will get better, at least for us, it has. I would not want to go throught those first 4-5 months again, but I can not image life without Lucy. Good luck in your decision!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

just4mom said:


> The biting is normal They are teething hard at that age. I am sending my girl Sakari to k9 off leash. It’s two weeks board and train for 2800
> You should see if there is one near you. They are amazing !!! And your girl will be well behaved after. They also train service and police dogs so they have allot of experience. Best of luck!


Thanks but we fully intend to do the training with a trainer’s help. My hb is with her all day and is determined to make this work. All the posts have really helped us confirm that we truly never wanted to give her away. It hasn’t been easy, won’t be easy but we want to embracing it all, easy, hard, whatever. That’s our commitment for making the decision to have her in the first place. Changing perspectives helps a lot.: training can be fun too!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> Everyone suggesting to the OP to find someone more worthy of having her dog. I don’t think the OP wants to rehome her dog to start with. If this is the case then why she has to search for someone? Her 12 wk pup needs to go back to the breeder to get placed into the best possible home, not bounced around and end up in a shelter. Is the breeder even aware of all these doubts and developments?


We felt concerned and torn but this discussion helped us decide that we wanted to do this. We learned a lot already. We had expectations, we changed that. We are not parting from her and will do whatever is necessary to make it work. We know we can.


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Laurie B said:


> I got my boy Hans at 9 weeks. He was a baby shark. Hands and arms like raw meat. Found a trainer, worked with him everyday. Even if for a short time. Walks twice a day. Even on walks training took place,even tho Hans didn’t realize it. Tokay Hans is 2 hrs old. Let me just say I could never ask for a better boy! He is more mine than my hubs since I spent most of the time with him. Everytime he would chew on my arms as a little guy I would yelp like a pup. Some don’t believe this method , today he is the most gentle of big boys. When he takes a treat he almost sucks it in so as not to hit his teeth on my fingers 💜. He was well worth the time , the hurts and anything else that occurred when he was a young boy. Please if you have reservations about keeping your pup, find someone who will do the work.  For sure your pup will feel the emotions you give off. Best of luck to you.


Keeping her. We ARE committed. We even feel embarrassed we posted in the first place, but it was actually worth it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t think any of the issues talked about here are that bad or complicated. Within a day these issues could be fixed.


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## Laurie B (Jan 11, 2021)

Sindyeli said:


> Keeping her. We ARE committed. We even feel embarrassed we posted in the first place, but it was actually worth it.


Good for you! Best of luck!


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## VTJorge (Jan 30, 2021)

That's normal. Idk about a dog of champions and how some random trainer would know the lineage of a random dog by looking at it, sounds like a load of bs to me. My dog was the same way for the first year. Be stern, don't let the dog boss you around. You need an alpha in the house and the dog sees the spot for the taking. Shut that (REMOVED BY MODERATOR) down. My pup follows me everywhere now and doesn't dare to bite me or my wife anymore, at times i can see when hes feeling tough and i just say "no" and he listens. Takes a lot of time and patience though. This is my first dog and its been a tough time to say the least but if you don't keep up on training at home then it will never work. Dogs have personalities like people and theyre all different. My dog still doesn't listen to my wife that well and tries to pull one over on her all the time but he's only 14-15 months so there's still a ways to go and if i decide to snip him thatll calm him down. I use my boredom to train him and have him finding me spots to pan for gold and whatever else we decide to search around the woods for and he's also a great deterrent for random people who I don't care to interact with as he will growl and bark on command lol.

NO SWEARING

Thanks,

David Winners
MOD team


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## VTJorge (Jan 30, 2021)

selzer said:


> Most puppies pull, lots of puppies eat rocks and anything else they can get their teeth on. Whatever puppy you get is going to have a personality. I suppose there are some pups that are dumb as rocks and will be slow and uninterested in anything but what you are trying to tell them. A German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be intelligent, which means they are going to be curious and explore. This means their teeth are going to go onto a variety of things, they are also going to be in a hurry to go from here to there. There is someone on here that has a puppy that pees all over itself and everything else whenever it sees someone. Maybe you can trade puppies. That one might do better with you as you want to go slow and maybe could handle that kind of a mess better than this one. The point is, that all puppies have something that is going to drive someone crazy. You may be frustrated with your puppy pulling, while another person is frustrated because their puppy doesn't want to go out of the yard on a walk. You are frustrated with the nipping while another person may be frustrated with their puppies being afraid of anything new, a garbage can in the wrong place, a rock, whatever. You may be frustrated with your puppy eating everything it can get close enough to, while someone else might be beside themselves because their puppy can't gain weight.
> 
> Here are some other issues people have with puppies:
> Afraid of storms
> ...


My dog has about all of those issues. I think it's hilarious when he pounces on my shadow though so it doesn't bother me. He could be nicer to my cat Gandalf but the cat gives it right back to him so screw it. They chill at the end of the day and make nice so I don't worry about them. He also whines all the time rather than barking or growling. Unless we go out at night and the car is moved a foot out of place then he turns into an attack dog lol. I don't mind it, its his personality. He isn't trained all the way either so can't hold anything against him


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

@Sindyeli, sometimes it might take a bit longer to bond and to start speaking the “same language”.


VTJorge said:


> That's normal. Idk about a dog of champions and how some random trainer would know the lineage of a random dog by looking at it, sounds like a load of bs to me. My dog was the same way for the first year. Be stern, don't let the dog boss you around. You need an alpha in the house and the dog sees the spot for the taking. Shut that s**t down. My pup follows me everywhere now and doesn't dare to bite me or my wife anymore, at times i can see when hes feeling tough and i just say "no" and he listens. Takes a lot of time and patience though. This is my first dog and its been a tough time to say the least but if you don't keep up on training at home then it will never work. Dogs have personalities like people and theyre all different. My dog still doesn't listen to my wife that well and tries to pull one over on her all the time but he's only 14-15 months so there's still a ways to go and if i decide to snip him thatll calm him down. I use my boredom to train him and have him finding me spots to pan for gold and whatever else we decide to search around the woods for and he's also a great deterrent for random people who I don't care to interact with as he will growl and bark on command lol.


The real “BS” is the alpha dog theory that was debunked years ago. It’s been really detrimental to common sense dog training.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

VTJorge said:


> He isn't trained all the way either so can't hold anything against him


Will he ever be "trained all the way"?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sitz&Platz said:


> @Sindyeli, sometimes it might take a bit longer to bond and to start speaking the “same language”.
> 
> 
> The real “BS” is the alpha dog theory that was debunked years ago. It’s been really detrimental to common sense dog training.


What exactly was debunked years ago regarding "alpha dog theory" ?

I think what has been the most detriment for people not being able to handle a properly bred German Shepherd is all the "positive only" bs. Also, the tons and tons of misinformation that most people don't have the time to sift through.

If people only kept it in the back of their mind the one simple principle in dog training: praise the behaviors you want and punish the ones you don't want, then many more people would be able to handle a good German Shepherd. No trainers, no behaviorists, no bs.

IMO, handling a German Shepherd bred for work isn't rocket science if you keep the above principle in mind. And when I say punishment, I am NOT talking about abuse. I am talking about firm, fair, and consistent. Black and White. Too much grey isn't helping anybody. You need balance just like a good German Shepherd should be balanced.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

The origins of the “alpha dog” theory are based on Rudolph Schenkel’s observations in captive wolves and it has been debunked. 

Positive reinforcement is not BS, because positive reinforcement does not mean that you ignore bad behavior. That’s simply not the case.

I’m a lot more worried about owners who admit that they would kill their dogs if they accidentally nip while playing flirt pole. Somehow these kinds of comments get a lot less outrage on this forum than someone suggesting that they use positive reinforcement with their dogs. And I have zero problem using a negative “punishment”, but only when absolutely necessary and when everything else has failed.

I see so many owners using e-collars and prong collars for issues that could be resolved with patience and training. But how dare anyone even suggest that, when positive training is made out to be the devil? Let me repeat, someone suggested that they would kill their dog if the dog accidentally nipped during play, and THAT comment was apparently ok.

I think that a lot of dog aggression stems from aggressive handling by owners who think they have to be the alpha dog. You’re not a dog, (COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR), and use common sense when training. On the other end of the spectrum are people who believe that positive reinforcement means letting your dog run the show, which is equally stupid.

That’s all.

NEGATIVE COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR.

First warning. Any further negative personal comments may result in temporary or permanent ban.

David Winners
MOD team


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sitz&Platz said:


> The origins of the “alpha dog” theory are based on Rudolph Schenkel’s observations in captive wolves and it has been debunked.
> 
> Positive reinforcement is not BS, because positive reinforcement does not mean that you ignore bad behavior. That’s simply not the case.
> 
> ...


I certainly didn't see any post that recommended putting a dog down for nipping. That would NOT be ok with me.

Negative punishment is basically withholding a reward for incorrect behavior. Positive punishment is applying a correction or something aversive.

If you disagree, please state your opinion without calling people stupid.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

@David Winners, I don’t know if you saw it or not, but you responded to the thread in question. However, it baffles me, because I joined this forum as someone who loves the breed, and I think that most members here feel the same way and wouldn’t want to push a false narrative about “alpha dog” behavior that has been debunked.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

@David Winners, I got a warning because I complained about an animal abuser? Ok, please delete my account immediately including every post and every picture that I have posted on this forum. I did not call any one person stupid, I was talking about training methods. Thank you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sitz&Platz said:


> @David Winners, I got a warning because I complained about an animal abuser? Ok, please delete my account immediately including every post and every picture that I have posted on this forum. I did not call any one person stupid, I was talking about training methods. Thank you.


I understand that and I only put my mod hat on because of a rules violation.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sitz&Platz said:


> Let me repeat, someone suggested that they would kill their dog if the dog accidentally nipped during play, and THAT comment was apparently ok.


Plenty of people saw the comment. There were a lot of people not okay with it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I actually have not seeing any pushing of the alpha dog behavior. A poster used alpha word in the same way others use “leader”. He talked about time, patience, keeping up with training, overcoming tough times. He didn’t say he used corrections only, didn’t say he didn’t use positive reinforcement. He was encouraging to the OP. I was surprised by @Sitz&Platz extreme overreaction.

I didn’t see a “killing for a nip” comment. Was it a serious comment? Meaning the readers believed that the poster truly would go inside the house, get a shotgun and kill their dog because she was nipped during play? Just based on the above reaction to the word “alpha” I am not sure what to think.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I find Ivan Balabanov a great salesman, great dog trainer, and interesting listen. Once I come across the combination of time and money, I’ll most likely attend one of his schools. Here is an excerpt of one of the emails he sends out.

I have never done what everyone else was doing.

I strive to do things radically different, and vastly superior to the things everyone else is doing.

My approach is not based on Skinnerian behaviorism and the 4 quadrants of Operant Conditioning. 

I do NOT focus on behaviors through reinforcement and punishment.

And the best part is, I accomplish my goals faster than most other trainers.

One of the things that truly shocks trainers who learn from me is that I don’t do a million repetitions and drill behaviors like they do. 

My training is totally different. 

What I do gets me to my end goal.

I achieve an incredibly trained dog much faster than most and with less time spent training.


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


I have Trained and Bred Working Line GSD's for a long time...I will tell you that a dog like your talking about will mature into the best dog you can get...As for training it only takes 5 to 10 minutes a day to get what you want...As for the biting the are teething and literally investigating things with their mouths...If you can hang in there it will be worth it...If I can help you let me [email protected] ...Where are you located?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I find Ivan Balabanov a great salesman, great dog trainer, and interesting listen. Once I come across the combination of time and money, I’ll most likely attend one of his schools. Here is an excerpt of one of the emails he sends out.
> 
> I have never done what everyone else was doing.
> 
> ...


Well said. I used to be all about the operant conditioning only. But moved away from it based on the faster and more consistent results of want they now call 'balanced training'. I found that training with food only, gives a determinant dog only the option to do it right. I do use food to teach new behavior. Yesterday I had great results with an inhome training session with novice owners who adopted a one year old untrained medium sized Rottweiler type mutt in Feb.. They followed up on all my advice from two weeks ago and the results were already impressive. I had asked them to purchase the Keeper collar and a 30 ft line which we introduced yesterday. They were astounded to see their dog make an 180. From this wild untrained but social (!) dog, he now: walked without biting the leash, stopped pulling, waited for them by going in and out the door, allowed to be collared, released the toy after tugging, was considerably calmer (soft eyes, eye contact and relaxed open mouth. I got teary seeing this progress and owners who never thought their dog would have been capable of this. Two weeks from now I am going back. It is so encouraging when people do their home work and stick to it and realize that I only give them the tools to use.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

The "kill the dog who bites" comment was in the fun with flirt pole thread fyi

To this topic, the problem with many of the sites and opinions discounting what some call an Alpha stance is that they define it as "*instructing you to use force and intimidation to overpower your dog into submission. They say that you, the human, must be the alpha." *

Direct quote that of course, would not be what most people consider "fair, firm, consistent, age appropriate corrections for undesirable behavior"


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> Well said. I used to be all about the operant conditioning only. But moved away from it based on the faster and more consistent results of want they now call 'balanced training'. I found that training with food only, gives a determinant dog only the option to do it right. I do use food to teach new behavior. Yesterday I had great results with an inhome training session with novice owners who adopted a one year old untrained medium sized Rottweiler type mutt in Feb.. They followed up on all my advice from two weeks ago and the results were already impressive. I had asked them to purchase the Keeper collar and a 30 ft line which we introduced yesterday. They were astounded to see their dog make an 180. From this wild untrained but social (!) dog, he now: walked without biting the leash, stopped pulling, waited for them by going in and out the door, allowed to be collared, released the toy after tugging, was considerably calmer (soft eyes, eye contact and relaxed open mouth. I got teary seeing this progress and owners who never thought their dog would have been capable of this. Two weeks from now I am going back. It is so encouraging when people do their home work and stick to it and realize that I only give them the tools to use.


I do have a lot of operant conditioning based training. I make no claims to being a highly sophisticated trainer. Dogs have evolved to bond deeply with humans. My philosophy is based on building a relationship of trust, respect, and boundaries with my dogs. After that it comes down to communicating what I want and don’t want. I believe anyone who can do that can be successful.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I certainly didn't see any post that recommended putting a dog down for nipping. That would NOT be ok with me.
> 
> Negative punishment is basically withholding a reward for incorrect behavior. Positive punishment is applying a correction or something aversive.
> 
> If you disagree, please state your opinion without calling people stupid.


Not to argue or be disrespectful but it was in the Flirt Pole commotion thread. if It hasn’t been removed, it is still there.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What working professional with family and other engagements has time for thousands of repetitions? If I don’t see a progress in training within week or two then I’m doing something wrong and I need to revisit and make changes, not keep going, not all methods are working for all dogs. 

I’m also a believer in developing relationship of trust and respect, and keeping it that way for life. I am also confident like Jen above stated that any intelligent adult person has the ability to train their own dog of any linage without some heroic measures or supernatural skills. It doesn’t mean any person can be a dog trainer for other people, but for their own dog - yes. Contrary to the popular belief.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Plenty of people saw the comment. There were a lot of people not okay with it.


I saw it and commented myself.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> What working professional with family and other engagements has time for thousands of repetitions? If I don’t see a progress in training within week or two then I’m doing something wrong and I need to revisit and make changes, not keep going, not all methods are working for all dogs.


5 reps a day, 5 days a week, equals 1300 reps a year. That’s not even 5 minutes of training. I think some perspective is important. I think anyone with a dog could practice a sit 5 times a day like that. There’s a lot of layers in that quote. If you look at the age of dogs competing at a high level, Ivan tends to get his there much younger. There are multiple world competitors who have said they get the precision they look for from reps. A pet example would be looking at the reps it takes to get a dog past reactivity to another dog.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I like Ivan a lot, I learned a concept of delayed reinforcement from one of his videos, actually, long time ago. Also a concept of seamlessly incorporating training into play and not vice versa. And giving your dog commands in a normal voice, I think it was him also. I wish I could afford his training. 

I want to keep this conversation relevant to the OP, and the OP goals are not high precision obedience and competition. If you do 5 reps a day for two weeks and see zero progress, not even a tiny bit, then yes, time for a change because repeating it the same way for a year with the same result is not productive.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> If people only kept it in the back of their mind the one simple principle in dog training: praise the behaviors you want and punish the ones you don't want, then many more people would be able to handle a good German Shepherd. No trainers, no behaviorists, no bs.


I do things a bit different, and I've handled dogs that would happily take you down like a lame deer. 
The OP just wants a trustworthy companion that they can live with as I read it. 
I don't think that's a particularly lofty goal for a well bred GSD. 
Dog needs exercise and structure. Consistent rules, fair handling. I ignore behavior I don't like, reward behavior I do like and have rules of life that must be followed. 
It's a partnership, not an ownership. It's about building teamwork. In order for the dog to see the handler as someone to work with there must be something in it for the dog.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Handling tough dogs and properly raising and training the said dogs are two different things. A puppy is not a partner, he is a future partner for you or another handler. Road to that partnership can be very easy or can be really bumpy but yes, very worth it. 

Interesting thing I’ve read some time ago. Adolescent dogs behave better with strangers and listen to/ obey strangers better then their owners. It changes with maturity but teenage dogs make their owners look really bad and their trainers look very good. Something to keep in mind. I do when I look at my dog and just say “and why in the world are you doing this?”


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Back to the OP ---- Glad you found the now-derailed thread helpful. I am glad you posted both originally and follow-up. It is gratifying to hear someone's thinking they've been helped by the debate that ensued their original post. Best wishes for a good time with a great pup - and thanks for your receptive attitude.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sitz&Platz said:


> The origins of the “alpha dog” theory are based on Rudolph Schenkel’s observations in captive wolves and it has been debunked.
> 
> Positive reinforcement is not BS, because positive reinforcement does not mean that you ignore bad behavior. That’s simply not the case.


First, I never said "positive reinforcement" is bs. I said "positive only" is bs.

Second, as far as Rudolph and captive wolves go, David Meech is then the one cited for "debunking" "alpha".

Here is David Meech himself:






@ 1:40 in above video David goes on to say that the term "alpha" is appropriate to use regarding artificial packs which rarely happen in the wild but do happen. He continues that another case where the term "alpha" is appropriate is in complex packs or packs with multiple breeders - example Yellowstone.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I do things a bit different, and I've handled dogs that would happily take you down like a lame deer.
> The OP just wants a trustworthy companion that they can live with as I read it.
> I don't think that's a particularly lofty goal for a well bred GSD.
> Dog needs exercise and structure. Consistent rules, fair handling. I ignore behavior I don't like, reward behavior I do like and have rules of life that must be followed.
> It's a partnership, not an ownership. It's about building teamwork. In order for the dog to see the handler as someone to work with there must be something in it for the dog.


You say you have consistent rules, rules of life that must be followed and you "ignore" behaviour you don't like ?

Sorry, maybe it's late in the day or something. But I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sindyeli said:


> Our female GSD is now 13 weeks old. It’s been a challenging 6 weeks, some normal stuff like potty training, but also serious biting (bloody bites on our hands) and overall difficult and not much fun. Maia has a very high drive and a ton of energy, and, if she is learning fast, it’s also been essentially hair pulling. Not sure it’s normal. This is our 2nd GS, and we don’t recall such difficulties with him. Such as the biting, which we have been working on but not making much progress and it’s making desensitizing her so hard, like putting your hands daily in a garbage disposal. We like to take responsibility for our dog behavior so we keep assessing what we could be doing wrong.
> 
> My hb started working with a trainer that has an excellent reputation here and her specialty is working with GSs. She did an evaluation last Monday and she told him that we have a “super dog” according to her blood line, many champions in her German lineage etc. And that Maia was going amazing to train... if he wants to spend 2 years of his life doing it. She said she has nerves of steel (we had noticed ourselves), is fit for Schutzhund or be a police dog with her temperament and super high drive. And she spent 20 minutes advising him to think hard about training her because it was going to be rewarding BUT very with sweat and tears, and she was all willing to help him all he needed (a big expense), no doubt). And that if we couldn’t commit, she knew of several people who would love to have a dog like her. We paid $2,000 for her, specifically asked the breeder for a dog with drive but no more. The trainer said Maia is no house pet, she has a true working dog character.
> 
> ...


Here is a nice video on puppy biting that may help you:






The above video was originally posted by @David Winners:









Shield K9 puppy biting video


Here's a video Haz just released on puppy biting.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> You say you have consistent rules, rules of life that must be followed and you "ignore" behaviour you don't like ?
> 
> Sorry, maybe it's late in the day or something. But I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying.


It's really very simple. For example I don't pet jumping dogs. Period. Ever. Shadow and Bud both do/would jump beside me. But no touching. I don't correct it, I just don't respond. Yes I am aware that is a form of punishment, however it is the least adversarial approach. With most dogs it takes minutes get the point. I don't actually housetrain either. I simply never give the dog an opportunity to make a mistake. I don't correct puppy biting, at all. I simply ignore them, and enjoy it until it stops. ALL puppies bite. Correcting them seems unnatural to me. I have never raised a pup that hadn't stopped on it's own by about 12 weeks. If I instigate rough play it's game on. Biting outside of that I simply walk away from. Even my demon spawn litter had given up on biting before they went to their homes, and they were horrid little beasts!
Dogs are exceptionally self serving. If there is nothing in it for them they stop doing it.
On the other hand, behaviors that I enjoy are rewarded heavily if offered. If Shadow goes and lays down while I am busy I will walk over and toss a treat on her bed, and she is 10 now!


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Jen84 said:


> Here is a nice video on puppy biting that may help you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, quite helpful.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It's really very simple. For example I don't pet jumping dogs. Period. Ever. Shadow and Bud both do/would jump beside me. But no touching. I don't correct it, I just don't respond. Yes I am aware that is a form of punishment, however it is the least adversarial approach. With most dogs it takes minutes get the point. I don't actually housetrain either. I simply never give the dog an opportunity to make a mistake. I don't correct puppy biting, at all. I simply ignore them, and enjoy it until it stops. ALL puppies bite. Correcting them seems unnatural to me. I have never raised a pup that hadn't stopped on it's own by about 12 weeks. If I instigate rough play it's game on. Biting outside of that I simply walk away from. Even my demon spawn litter had given up on biting before they went to their homes, and they were horrid little beasts!
> Dogs are exceptionally self serving. If there is nothing in it for them they stop doing it.
> On the other hand, behaviors that I enjoy are rewarded heavily if offered. If Shadow goes and lays down while I am busy I will walk over and toss a treat on her bed, and she is 10 now!





Sabis mom said:


> Yes I am aware that is a form of punishment, however it is the least adversarial approach.


Thanks for admitting you punish your dog 

I am also not against the least adversarial approach.



Sabis mom said:


> Correcting them seems unnatural to me.


_" I do not exclude or twist the facts or the power of positive punishment, because dogs do not need a “special introduction” to punishment. A five week old puppy that lives with his mom and litter mates has already been introduced to positive punishment through direct and very natural interaction. Maybe the pup decided to eat when it was not feeding time, or got too close to Mom’s toy (just to name few examples). We the humans do not need to take sides as to whether punishment is “humane” or if it works. We do not need behavioral scientists to waste money on biased experiments. If you have ever observed a dam with her puppies, you know very well that punishment works brilliantly just as positive reinforcement in the great grand scheme we call learning. We can learn much from a mother dog, as nature has gifted her with the skills to teach those puppies to respect her rules without ever developing a chronic fear of her."_ - Ivan Balabanov



Sabis mom said:


> I don't correct puppy biting, at all. I simply ignore them, and enjoy it until it stops. ALL puppies bite. Correcting them seems unnatural to me. I have never raised a pup that hadn't stopped on it's own by about 12 weeks. If I instigate rough play it's game on. Biting outside of that I simply walk away from. Even my demon spawn litter had given up on biting before they went to their homes, and they were horrid little beasts!


Every dog is different and many roads lead to rome.

Here is what Larry Krohn thinks of puppy biting:






@4:11 on timer :_ "Reward the good and correct the bad. And the correction better have some meaning. They have to have some meaning. You are not going to harm the dog, you are not going to hurt his feelings, you're not going to sever your relationship; as a matter of fact, it going to make it much stronger I promise you okay folks"_ - Larry Krohn




Sabis mom said:


> I don't actually housetrain either. I simply never give the dog an opportunity to make a mistake.


_"I want them to learn at a young age that there are strict rules to abide by, I do not take anything out of their path or move things away for a pup, that would defeat them learning the rules. For me a dog, regardless of what the intentions in training for that dog are, should know what is expected of it and what is allowed or not allowed. I should be able to set him loose in my livingroom at some point without having to worry that he might break, chew or shred something"_. - Alice Bezemer trainer of KNPV working dogs


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks for admitting you punish your dog
> 
> I am also not against the least adversarial approach.
> 
> ...


There is another side to this that you are leaving out in this post. Relationship and fulfillment. If you watch Larry with dogs, he has a deep understanding of their relationship and he fosters that relationship in very calculated ways. He plays with dogs. If they can't play, he teaches them.

Yes, he has hard and fast rules about specific behaviors and expectations, but the other side of his methods is very relaxed.

I only point this out because I think it is very important and often overlooked in lieu of training techniques. I have a 90/10 rato in my head that I try to meet on a consistent basis. 90% fun to 10% rules. I think Larry is similar in his approach to relationships. 

There needs to be consideration when applying punishment. It is very effective and very destructive. Balance is a word bandied about but it has meaning at its roots, and it is powerful. If you can correct a dog and achieve understanding without fallout, you have balance.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> There is another side to this that you are leaving out in this post. Relationship and fulfillment. If you watch Larry with dogs, he has a deep understanding of their relationship and he fosters that relationship in very calculated ways. He plays with dogs. If they can't play, he teaches them.
> 
> Yes, he has hard and fast rules about specific behaviors and expectations, but the other side of his methods is very relaxed.
> 
> ...


Totally agree David.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's called healthy dialog, and should be fostered in your relationship with your puppy from day 1! 

Personally, I've never "trained a dog out of a behavior" ever! I train the behaviors I want them to exhibit. Interestingly, the unwanted behaviors just stop. No conflict, or very little.

I just watched a YT video where Ian Dunbar gave a great talk about "typical" punishment based training, which pointed out how not only is it inefficient, it's not very effective! 

On the negative side, there are an infinite number of variations that you have to scold a dog for in order for them to understand, on the positive side there's only one! Dog's don't think like people and they have only a self serving agenda - whereas people have some goal in mind often (hopefully!).

Balance in my mind doesn't exist without a clear dialog. My dog is 5 yrs old this year, and I have never used a positive punishment beyond my voice to correct her. ETA: I have also used a leash pop. 

Of course she's perfect though, your results may vary...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks for admitting you punish your dog
> 
> I am also not against the least adversarial approach.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you just don't get it. 
Shadow has not gone to the bathroom in my house since she was 5 weeks old. She is loose all the time. She asks to go out. She has never destroyed my belongings. Neither did Sabi. Or Bud, or Lex. I reward what I want. Biting is the same idea. If I indicate playtime, do your worst. It's about teaching and learning. I do not issue corrections unless my dog wilfully disobeys a known command or rule. 
Or is doing something life threatening.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Seems pretty clear to me! Well said!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Training "should" IMHO be more about leading them into desired behaviors, and way way less about dissuading bad ones. They do learn pretty quickly if you show them the path...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We talk about this trainer or that trainer, but when someone writes down what works for them, people think they just need to apply what the book says and it will work for them too. I think that what works for the best trainers is that they have experience that comes through their pores, it comes through their body language that dogs are more in tune with than we are. I think it is helpful to read the books and to try techniques, but we have to realize that techniques coming from experienced handlers are going to work much better and quicker. I think way too many people give something a try, it doesn't work, and they give up on it. And, when you can put a correction collar on the dog and get passable within minutes, who's likely to give anything else the time of day? It isn't our dogs that need all the practice, it is us. We can give the dog one command with our mouths and another with our bodies. When we become experienced, our dogs do a heck of a lot better without the repetition.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you just don't get it.
> Shadow has not gone to the bathroom in my house since she was 5 weeks old. She is loose all the time. She asks to go out. She has never destroyed my belongings. Neither did Sabi. Or Bud, or Lex. I reward what I want. Biting is the same idea. If I indicate playtime, do your worst. It's about teaching and learning. I do not issue corrections unless my dog wilfully disobeys a known command or rule.
> Or is doing something life threatening.


I am saying, I think it is great that your method of dealing with things work for you and your particular dog. However, what works for you may not work for others and your methods fly in the face of how most pros handle these situations.

I am putting out alternative information so that whoever reads it can make up their own mind for what suits their situation best. 

I give people a little credit that they can handle information with some discretion.

I also give you credit that you may be some kind of dog whisperer. And I'm not saying that to be sarcastic or rude.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

_"I personally believe that there is one uber rule in dogsports and training that all should use and live by."

"Don't want to deal with behaviour problems tomorrow? Than do not allow that behaviour today."_ - Alice Bezemer


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Setting a routine will help. When pup is out of crate they go outside to potty, some structured play that is more the lines of some training - perhaps getting some agility equipment, nature trails, outings. The crate will give you peace of mind in between. It helps when you have toys around and redirect your pup to a toys to chomp on. When you have the puppy thing down then adolescence is around the corner. Eventually you will envy all your hard work.

I think many living beings need a certain type of pressure to become the their best selves. What that pressure is will vary. Learning can super fun but there needs to be some balance if boundaries are continuously crossed. Animals communicate all through energy body language. Dogs seek structure they will try to lead if there is no one leading. They will instinctively push the envelope when they sense they can. There are some dogs who are more higher motivated and head strong then other dogs. Those are dogs that will teach you the most. You will find out what works best for you and your pup. You may learn that you need to go to different trainers and use different things from each one. You will need to become the best teacher for your dog by being open minded and flexible to what works you and your dog. Eventually you will see the type of relationship you set out for evolve into more of partnership. There is a process. No one is perfect and no dog is perfect even the best trainers in the world are continuously learning as it is what makes them the best.

This is a great book - it talks of the authors earlier puppy experiences as well and goes into great depth about the great bond formed. I enjoyed this while Max was a pup as he was a handful. He is my heart dog my life will not ever be the same without him.








What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World: Warren, Cat: 0884483783571: Amazon.com: Books


Buy What the Dog Knows: Scent, Science, and the Amazing Ways Dogs Perceive the World on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



www.amazon.com


















‎The Canine Paradigm: Episode 178: Slave to genetics on Apple Podcasts


‎Show The Canine Paradigm, Ep Episode 178: Slave to genetics - May 23, 2021



podcasts.apple.com


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## Sindyeli (Apr 22, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> Setting a routine will help. When pup is out of crate they go outside to potty, some structured play that is more the lines of some training - perhaps getting some agility equipment, nature trails, outings. The crate will give you peace of mind in between. It helps when you have toys around and redirect your pup to a toys to chomp on. When you have the puppy thing down then adolescence is around the corner. Eventually you will envy all your hard work.
> 
> I think many living beings need a certain type of pressure to become the their best selves. What that pressure is will vary. Learning can super fun but there needs to be some balance if boundaries are continuously crossed. Animals communicate all through energy body language. Dogs seek structure they will try to lead if there is no one leading. They will instinctively push the envelope when they sense they can. There are some dogs who are more higher motivated and head strong then other dogs. Those are dogs that will teach you the most. You will find out what works best for you and your pup. You may learn that you need to go to different trainers and use different things from each one. You will need to become the best teacher for your dog by being open minded and flexible to what works you and your dog. Eventually you will see the type of relationship you set out for evolve into more of partnership. There is a process. No one is perfect and no dog is perfect even the best trainers in the world are continuously learning as it is what makes them the best.
> 
> ...


Thank you, all helpful info. Maia is becoming better as my hb and I are trusting we can do this. Her bitiness is lesser, she doesn't leave us with scratches anymore, and training is becoming more fun for everyone. She's still eating her share of elk/deer/moose poop out in the field, but if it hasn't killed her, hopefully she has gotten her share of probiotics lol! We told the vet, the pup has been dewormed, we'll make sure she's ok.
Today she played with a 7 year old GSD, it was super fun and her owner supervised her dog really well so we felt comfortable in spite of a little anxiety at that 85 lbs female who was quite playful and great at correcting Maia too. All great.


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