# Breeder owners vs Pet owners



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Often we have discussions on subjects like breeding, puppies, and training, and have a wide spectrum of opinions that often turn nasty.
In analyzing this, I have come to realize that pet owners and breeder owners tend to look at things from a different perspective, thus point of view.
Just like the habits and norm of running a house by a childless couple and a family with kids would vary greatly in many areas, it doesn't mean there is a singular right and wrong on how to do it. It would seem to me that the opinions and habits of pet people more reflect their experiences, as opposed to breeder owners who should rightfully be more involved in all aspects of breeding, puppies, and training to be credible. People who buy food for two do so differently than people who buy for ten. The same approach for two often will not be as effective for ten. I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.


Rehoming dogs is always a big one.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

You are leaving out rescuers who often see the worst of both the breeders and pet owners. They also have a different perspective. 

As a pet owner titles and sports mean less that nothing to me. All I want is a healthy dog. Our training needs are very different. For example I don't care if my dog walks right by my side as long as he doesn't rip my arm out of my socket, I am happy.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Just like the habits and norm of running a house by a childless couple and a family with kids would vary greatly in many areas, it doesn't mean there is a singular right and wrong on how to do it.


You can't compare the two. They are hugely different. If a household decided not to have children, it will not change the odds of another household having children. 

*With out pet owners, EVERY breeder would be out of buisness.*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well one thing that comes to mind is the double standard I see all the time. "Good breeders" are supposed to only own X-number of dogs, but at the same time are supposed to always take back a dog for any reason at any time and are not supposed to sell or re-home dogs that they are not using in their breeding program but give them all homes for life, no questions asks. Then there are threads about how hard it is to find good breeders and how rarely they breed dogs or have good puppies available....


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## JohnD (May 1, 2012)

Breeders work hard to make a living from their dogs as well as trying to give their dogs the time and love that they need. I hope they do!!

Pet Owner for the most part are not making a living from their pets. So they should have more time to give the love and attention to their pets. At least we hope so.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think a breeder has to make a living from breeding dogs. I think a breeder should leave a legacy breeding dogs.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I don't think a breeder has to make a living from breeding dogs. I think a breeder should leave a legacy breeding dogs.


I agree whole heartedly!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think the different points of view run deeper than simply dividing breeders vs pet owners. Many of the nastier disagreements seem to be between pet owners overlooking the fact that we are all individuals with our own set of circumstances. What I want from my dog is vastly different from what my neighbor wants, for example, but we can enjoy our time together watching the dogs play by NOT discussing how to train them, lol.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I obviously do not know every breeder on this site personally, but I do know a number of them and they were all pet owners first. Actually, most of them probably still are. I know at least Chris and I have dogs that will never be bred, never be titled, but still stay out their lives with us as our pets. So, I am not sure you can really separate the two easily. 

Lies and Jackie, though, probably have brought up the most obvious areas of contention. 

Then we also have those that are not breeders yet are also not strictly pet owners. They can be some of the most vocal about what should be and what should not be


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Novice opinion here, that breeders are fully versed in the dog (at least they should be) so they believe that certain criteria should be met, no excuses, since it is best for the breed. Rightfully so, they have raised, trained, lived with, experienced, studied much more about these dogs than I can even imagine.
The majority of pet owners do not know, realize, or maybe not care, for these criteria. They have their own agenda, much of which may well never come close to the "breeder standard." Rightfully so, it is their dog and they are free to do as they please with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

*Training*
- Good breeders are working their dogs. A sit for a pet owner could be a 30 second delay and they are happy if somewhere during that time, the dog sits. A sit for a breeder means the butt hits the ground with the body straight. IMO, breeders will have more precise training.
*Rehoming 
*- Covered above
*Drives *
-Breeders will have higher drive dogs than the average pet owner who just wants a dog for company, activity outdoors.
*Expectations of dogs abilities*
- Is that self explanatory?
*Health*
- Breeders probably look more carefully at the health of the dog vs an average pet owner.
*Attachment to dog*
- I don't think a fair comparison can be made. There are owners and breeders that don't care. And there are owners and breeders that care deeply.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

lhczth said:


> So, I am not sure you can really separate the two easily.


I don't think so...unless "actual breeders" remain emotionally unattached to the dogs in their "care", other than to view it as a money-making process!?
To them, are dogs just the means to the end? Do they ever own a dog just because they want to...even if it's not able to reproduce?


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## Phoebes (Jul 14, 2012)

It's so tough to speak generally though! I think that it takes all kinds.

For example, I personally know a breeder whose approach is to reduce costs and time spent with her dogs in ways that make me as a pet owner uncomfortable. 

For example, I take my dogs to the vet, I do things that are more expensive like a reduced vaccination schedule with antibody titers, I'll take them to specialists if necessary and I'll do the surgery or treatment recommended. I feed an expensive grain free kibble and have an array of expensive treats. I brush/rake their coats daily or every other day. I take them to obedience classes. I try get my dogs tired and exercised daily and take them out 4 times a day and get free run around in the yard time. I treat my dogs individually depending on their age, medical conditions, food intolerances...

The breeder takes dogs to the humane society for vet care. She does vaccines at the low cost fairs, she euthanizes dogs for things I would have treated (heartworms, ear infections), she feeds the least expensive kibble without artificial coloring. She shaves or clips short the coats of dogs she isn't showing to minimize their care. Her dogs go between wire kennels and pens and get to poop in the kennel. She treats all her dogs the same.

Of course all pet owners arent like me and all breeders aren't like her (thank goodness).

*though by expensive, it's not price that I care for, I mind the ingredients and the items with the ingredients I look for happen to be more expensive


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe a better line is drawn between the "show/trial/sport/professional handlers (service/k9)" and the "pet" people. Since most of the good breeders we would consider fall into that category as well and a majority of the people actually competing with their dogs have the same kinds of opinions as those.

There's just in general more knowledge, higher expectations, and more understanding of what the DOG needs rather than what the owner wants. The idea that a dog might be happier in this household, or that household, or more that you should adapt YOUR life to the dog or breed rather than the other way around. Many pet owners want a GSD...but they don't want to do Schutzhund or another sport that will make that GSD happy. They don't understand why their highly driven dog isn't happy just laying on the couch. I know it took me a while to realize that dogs are happiest when they're working...unlike humans who are happiest when they're relaxing. Pet people look at their dogs and humanize them, the other group tends to understand the animal and what it was made for.

Just to add...generalizations, of course there are pet people that know and care but I'm talking about your average Joe American pet owner.

One more thing came to mind. For most of us (on forum), dog training is a lifetime thing. For the "pet" owner. Its an 8 week course from the local Petsmart.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> To them, are dogs just the means to the end? Do they ever own a dog just because they want to...even if it's not able to reproduce?


Did she not say just that? I know for a fact that she does. In fact I think every breeder I know, even ones I wouldn't buy from for various reasons, owns at least one dog that doesn't or can't breed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

SHE said that but the OP didn't. I'm really curious what type of discussion springs up in this regard. Or if it's what the OP intended to say.

Also...it's really kind of haughty and derogatory to categorize "pet people" into this tiny box because, if memory serves, "pet people" are a good deal more numerous than...what, "serious dog owners"? The line never crosses??


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Is that the category then? You're either a Breeder or a Pet Owner?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I see the line as people who own the dog(s) for the DOG and people who own the dog(s) for the BREED. A breeder might sell a perfectly good dog that they might have otherwise enjoyed owning as a pet or sport prospect but do not feel it's a good dog to be bred for the sake of the BREED, whereas a pet owner really only needs to be concerned with getting the DOG that fits their lifestyle and doesn't need to think beyond that. I don't really see either one as better or worse, or more or less important. I do think there is a distinction and I don't think it's offensive to either party to recognize that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the OP stated exactly what he intended. There is no judgement in his post, just stating what he's observed in his decades experience of dealing with pet owners and involved in sport / working dog owners. No reason to read between the lines of the post.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Also...it's really kind of haughty and derogatory to categorize "pet people" into this tiny box because, if memory serves, "pet people" are a good deal more numerous than...what, "serious dog owners"? The line never crosses??


I was really thinking about this during my response, and I hope no one that reads this thread thinks that we think any less of the people that aren't the serious dog owners. I think we all understand that everyone has their own priorities, their own lives, and their own commitments. I'm just glad that many of them are giving great homes to some very deserving dogs.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Maybe a better line is drawn between the "show/trial/sport/professional handlers (service/k9)" and the "pet" people. Since most of the good breeders we would consider fall into that category as well and a majority of the people actually competing with their dogs have the same kinds of opinions as those.
> 
> There's just in general more knowledge, higher expectations, and more understanding of what the DOG needs rather than what the owner wants. The idea that a dog might be happier in this household, or that household, or more that you should adapt YOUR life to the dog or breed rather than the other way around. Many pet owners want a GSD...*but they don't want to do Schutzhund or another sport that will make that GSD happy. They don't understand why their highly driven dog isn't happy just laying on the couch. I know it took me a while to realize that dogs are happiest when they're working...unlike humans who are happiest when they're relaxing. Pet people look at their dogs and humanize them, the other group tends to understand the animal and what it was made for.
> *
> Just to add...generalizations, of course there are pet people that know and care but I'm talking about your average Joe American pet owner.


I am a "pet" owner. I bristle a little bit at posts like this. I don't choose to do Sch for several reasons, all of which are valid by themselves. However, I don't believe that I couldn't handle a high-drive working dog. The point is, the dog doesn't even know what Schutzhund is. They're not born knowing they can do that, or a sport, like agility or flyball. They just need a JOB--something that "works" them. A "pet" owner can certainly find other ways to engage their dog. I just recently had a neighbor with a crazy standard poodle ask me how "The most perfect dog in the world doing"--it took me a minute to figure out he meant mine, compared to his. The difference in behavior is because I engaged my dog from a pup, taught him "things" to do, we train every day and he really thinks a big part of his existence is to be my partner running and hiking. He's a happy, well-adjusted, well-behaved dog because he is getting fufilled. Anyhow, I'm just saying, that Old Joe Schmoe can certainly give a dog a meaningful existence as long as they meet the needs, mentally and physically, of each particular dog. There are many GSD's, past and present, who work on a farm and don't do Sch or agility and I would venture to say they might even be happier than some of the dogs in the world doing those things. 

As for differences, I try to learn as much as I can from and about good breeders perspectives. I want to hear and study the voices of experience as much as possible. Of course, I'm talking about what I think are good breeders, and those IMHO are people who have spent years in the breed, raising, living with, working, training, breeding and seeing the results of those breedings and others..... All dogs, like I said, start out the same and they have no idea what kind of "jobs" or "life" is out there for them. I like to listen to what people with a long perspective have to say about raising them, about temperaments, about what the good things and bad things of past generations of dogs were and what the good things and bad things of dogs today are. 

I think there are far too many people who don't consider that at all, and that contributes to the problem of "pet" owners who don't understand what a dog needs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Breeders and trainers don't always agree. They, in general should have more knowledge than pet owners.

Arguments start more often between pet owners vs pet owners because there is such a wide variety of experience and opinion.
Opinions are often stated as fact.

Then there are rescue people who most likely are pet owners but have a very different take on many topics. 

Then there are the pet owners who come on here with fixed ideas without knowing WTH they are talking about.

An example is someone who just got their first dog but is 100% certain they will never use an *evil prong collar* but have never used one.

The variety of opinions among pet people is vast. Some pet people have a a lot of experience and can give some very good advice but you have to wade thru some not so good advice to get there.

The biggest cause of arguments though is broad sweeping opinions stated as the TRUTH.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I guess I see the line as people who own the dog(s) for the DOG and people who own the dog(s) for the BREED. *A breeder might sell a perfectly good dog that they might have otherwise enjoyed owning as a pet or sport prospect but do not feel it's a good dog to be bred for the sake of the BREED,* whereas a pet owner really only needs to be concerned with getting the DOG that fits their lifestyle and doesn't need to think beyond that. I don't really see either one as better or worse, or more or less important. I do think there is a distinction and I don't think it's offensive to either party to recognize that.


This is how I obtained my labrador. The breeder's husband had fallen in love with him (I now know why :wub but she did not feel he was what she wanted in every way to contribute breeding-wise, so I bought him. I'm forever grateful for her decision. I think that's exactly what "good" breeders should do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Maybe someone needs to define "pet owner" so there's less confusion. 

Is a "pet owner" someone who is gone 10hrs. a day and sees their pet a few hrs. before bed? Does a "pet owner" play frisbee with their dog, or walk it/hike with it/run with it, or merely take it to dog parks while they sip their lattes and chat with their dog park friends?
Help me out here :shrug:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

martemchik said:


> I was really thinking about this during my response, and I hope no one that reads this thread thinks that we think any less of the people that aren't the serious dog owners. I think we all understand that everyone has their own priorities, their own lives, and their own commitments. I'm just glad that many of them are giving great homes to some very deserving dogs.


I am just a pet owner and I don't see why any offense would be taken from the original post. Cliff clearly stated his observations. I think there is a difference. If I had 7 dogs, some for breeding, I would view things like vaccination and food a bit differently due to finances. And training? I can spend what I want on 1 dog...If I were trying to title 3 it would be different. Rehoming? I would never dream of rehoming Jax unless there were dire circumstances But if I'm a breeder and my goal is to better the breed then hard decisions will have to be made at times. There are so many little differences. Neither is good nor bad...it's just different.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pet Owner = Someone who has an animal for the purposes of companionship

Breeder = Someone who owns animals with the express purpose of breeding all, or some, of the dogs.

And now back to the regularly schedule program...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I own a GSD for the BREED. I don't compete with him, but that certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't work. I throw the ball..he runs after it jumps branches etc. ..gets the ball and brings it back. Kinda like...well, I don't know...flyball. So what does that make him? I don't compete.

We go out and follow tracks. He'll find the lure everytime. Kinda like...well, I don't know...tracking. I don't compete. 

We'll go out to the pasture to bring in the horses. He'll gather them up, listen to me and bring them in. Kinda like...well, I don't know...herding. I don't compete. 

You come to my house and sneak around. He'll put the fear of God into you. Kinda like...well, I don't know..a protection sport. I don't compete. 

He does all of those things (and more) because of the BREED. I'll admit, we don't compete because he might not do those things as well as a dog who is professionally trained to do those seperate sports (and he has an injury). But that sure doesn't make him less of a representative to his BREED.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I am just a pet owner and I don't see why any offense would be taken from the original post. Cliff clearly stated his observations. I think there is a difference. If I had 7 dogs, some for breeding, I would view things like vaccination and food a bit differently due to finances. And training? I can spend what I want on 1 dog...If I were trying to title 3 it would be different. Rehoming? I would never dream of rehoming Jax unless there were dire circumstances But if I'm a breeder and my goal is to better the breed then hard decisions will have to be made at times. There are so many little differences. Neither is good nor bad...it's just different.



Agreed. I knew what Cliff meant and it wasn't offensive at all. There is a difference for sure between he and I!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Often we have discussions on subjects like breeding, puppies, and training, and have a wide spectrum of opinions that often turn nasty.
> In analyzing this, I have come to realize that pet owners and breeder owners tend to look at things from a different perspective, thus point of view.
> Just like the habits and norm of running a house by a childless couple and a family with kids would vary greatly in many areas, it doesn't mean there is a singular right and wrong on how to do it. It would seem to me that the opinions and habits of pet people more reflect their experiences, as opposed to breeder owners who should rightfully be more involved in all aspects of breeding, puppies, and training to be credible. People who buy food for two do so differently than people who buy for ten. The same approach for two often will not be as effective for ten. I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.


Actually, I'd go even further. There is a difference between sport-dog owners, working dog owners, pet owner and breeder owners.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No doubt, Aimee. If I knew a fraction of what he knew, I would be a happy camper.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I own a GSD for the BREED. I don't compete with him, but that certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't work. I throw the ball..he runs after it jumps branches etc. ..gets the ball and brings it back. Kinda like...well, I don't know...flyball. So what does that make him? I don't compete.
> 
> We go out and follow tracks. He'll find the lure everytime. Kinda like...well, I don't know...tracking. I don't compete.
> 
> ...


This is sort of what I meant. We do these things too. I actually set him up like he's going to run for a sleeve and agitate him until I give him the release command and I watch in nervous terror as he comes barreling at me to jump up and attack his ball and hold/tug. I've not gotten it out far enough before and we've ended up on the ground, me on my back with nice bruising on my arm and chest. :crazy:

We also track deer and moose trails, etc. I have not done anything with any sort of "protection" at all, because I don't really know what I'm doing there. If he does a real bark, a serious "check that out" one, I tell him I will and we go look together. That's the extent. I would like to teach him a bark and hold, in case some wacko tries to bug me running. 

Anyhow, I hope that's not off topic. Just wanted to say that's kind of what I was talking about. It can be done with much seriousness and training and involvement.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Pet Owner = Someone who has an animal for the purposes of companionship
> 
> Breeder = Someone who owns animals with the express purpose of breeding all, or some, of the dogs.
> 
> And now back to the regularly schedule program...


Pretty much! For a pet owner, the dog itself is the end product. You have something in mind that you want for your household and your lifestyle and you get that. For a breeder the dog is a means to an end. You might get a dog that is different in some aspects as you would for a pet because you already have a plan to breed it back to certain lines and achieve a relatively predictable result. Maybe the 2nd, 3rd... generation is *really* the dog you are trying to get but that's not the dog you buy. Say I was in the market for another dog, if I was to get one for breeding it would be vastly different than the dog I'd get as a pet (and "pet" would include my couch-warming rescue dog and my highly trained performance dogs and everything in between).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What I have seen with some friends and other acquaintances early in a breeding "program" is putting together two dogs who are really really good and have x, y, and z in the total pedigree.

No emphasis on knowing good and bad combinations or influence of fatherline vs motherline etc. I was approached about breeding Beau and I am thinking....well there are a gazillion czech males already linebred on cordon-an-sat [beau is not, his sire was-and a 5th generation one], and I know he has a motherline with strong working dogs BUT what if you move the motherline into the middle of the pedigree........I don't know enough to KNOW that kind of stuff and neither do they. Aside from all the other questions. So I am kind of seeing three levels of experience: [FYI, don't fret about it - Beau is not even 2 and I am not likely to go there, even with good x-rays]

(1) Pet person, BYB - throw together two nice dogs with NO knowledge of genetics-whatever happens happens but expect surprises
(2) Hobby person but without adequate knowledge - Nice dogs, nice pedigrees but no analysis - I have seen some of these come out with some iffy results-I really have big concerns with this given recent demands for "black sable czech dogs" 
(3) Good Hobby Breeder/Pro -knows the pedigrees in and out, knows how to evaluate dogs, etc. knows outcomes of similar breedings and is very serious about improving the breed / breeding for a particular result and has worked towards establishing a history of doing just so -- though I guess 3 often starts out as 2 but if 2 is to get to 3 they should start out their program with serious mentoring, jmo.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Often we have discussions on subjects like breeding, puppies, and training, and have a wide spectrum of opinions that often turn nasty.


I see we are discussing what are pet dogs vs anything else.
My post was directed at Cliff's first sentence,shown above. 

I must have missed the boat because I thought that was what he was addressing. 
A wide spectrum of opinions that often turn nasty.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wait...so we're talking about pet owners who breed their pets...?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I thought he was discussing perspectives of breeder owners vs pet owners. I was thinking there is something in the middle and some breeders never get out of the middle.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah but see how Rocketdog took offense to my post...

Rocketdog, I don't do Schutzhund either, I was just trying to make a distinction. I have a high drive dog that would love to do Schutzhund, but like you I can't do it. I find other ways to stimulate him (AKC obedience/rally/agility) and if I didn't have that I'd be hiking and playing ball all the time.

Like I said...I'm generalizing from what I see in pet stores, dog parks, the people that train at my club for a year and then stop because their dog is "finished," and the ones that show up when their dog is 3 years old and doesn't know how to sit. I have a neighbor with an amazing high drive GSD, that dog gets tied out on a 20 foot line and runs around for 30 minutes as its daily exercise. I don't see that dog getting walks at all.

To tell you the truth...anyone that has stuck around on this forum for more than a week is more than your "average" pet owner. We all want to learn more and become better owners.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Liesje said:


> For a breeder the dog is a means to an end.


That end will result in a few working homes, maybe a breeding home or two as well as some 'pet' homes. 

Not every dog that comes from a reputable breeder ends up being the next champion anything. Nor is it bred. 

A pet home should be just as important to a breeder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I thought he was discussing perspectives of breeder owners vs pet owners. I was thinking there is something in the middle and some breeders never get out of the middle.


My posts weren't taking into regard a Pet Home breeding their Pet.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Often we have discussions on subjects like breeding, puppies, and training, and have a wide spectrum of opinions that often turn nasty.
> In analyzing this, I have come to realize that pet owners and breeder owners tend to look at things from a different perspective, thus point of view.
> Just like the habits and norm of running a house by a childless couple and a family with kids would vary greatly in many areas, it doesn't mean there is a singular right and wrong on how to do it. It would seem to me that the opinions and habits of pet people more reflect their experiences, as opposed to breeder owners who should rightfully be more involved in all aspects of breeding, puppies, and training to be credible. People who buy food for two do so differently than people who buy for ten. The same approach for two often will not be as effective for ten. *I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.*


I thought this is what he wanted to discuss. 

I think if you purchase a green dog/or pup to compete seriously, you would likely raise them differently than possibly a dog you want to be a therapy or bomb/cadaver dog. I think there's more in common than not, but there would be certain things you wouldn't want to make a habit that wouldn't "gel" with the way training would go for an occupation/sport? Or if someone wanted a PP dog, it might be different advice given on puppyhood behaviors than if someone wanted a ranch/livestock guardian dog? Stuff like that? Or if someone wanted a mellow, lay on the couch dog for family (although I don't see this as appropriate to expect out of a GSD personally).


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Yeah but see how Rocketdog took offense to my post...
> 
> Rocketdog, I don't do Schutzhund either, I was just trying to make a distinction. I have a high drive dog that would love to do Schutzhund, but like you I can't do it. I find other ways to stimulate him (AKC obedience/rally/agility) and if I didn't have that I'd be hiking and playing ball all the time.
> 
> ...


I wasn't "offended", I just don't like the phrase a "GSD must do Sch to be happy".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The majority of dog owners are "pet owners". 

We, or at least I, _get_ why there is a difference, but to classify yourself as a "Breeder owner" as if it's some elite category that leads you to be unable to relate to a regular owner (formerly known as "pet owner"), well, I guess, okay.
If that's how you want to be seen...? :shrug:

What the gist of this thread is, is "we're _breeders_; we don't deserve to be questions on our motives", and whatever you decide to do to, or with your dogs, it's all okay, if done in the name of _breeding._
Clearly, the mere mortals known as "pet owners" (or REGULAR owners) can't relate.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners


General care: have to balance and allot funds because with multiple dogs, one cannot afford to splurge on fancy extras "just cause". Some will have to do with minimal care - not neglecting mind you, but just "less than" the dogs that are actively showing/competing. 

Selling for profit or when price/buyer is the right fit: even "reputable" breeders will sell dogs when the price is right or when they wish to make room for new stock or when current dog would be a better fit elsewhere. Money talks. I've seen more than one breeder swear up and down that a dog is not for sale, but when the price is high enough, magically the dog is a right fit for the buyer!  

Rehoming retired breeding dogs - frowned on by some because they feel it is akin to "throwing away" after breeder is done with the dog. But in reality, breeder cannot keep every retired dog and retired breeding dogs will be homed to companion homes once they have finished producing.

Type of training - Petsmart classes vs. intense seminars or being part of a regular training club. Is it just ok for the dog to walk on a loose leash or must the dog have a perfect focused heel? 

Buying and selling dogs without too much hoopla or added emotion - most companion homes would never sell their pet for any amount, but breeders, competitors, and trainers regularly sell and buy dogs at shows/trials etc. Dog comes with one person, gets titled, is sold to another person at the same trial, and goes home with new person. Little fanfare over exchanges such as this. 

Washing out - Jackie brought this up. Many pet owners have a gut negative reaction when a dog is washed out and homed to a pet home, but it is a necessary part of the process. 

Attention/time given to each dog. Realistically, one cannot train every dog with the same diligence and invest the same time into each one when you have multiples. There are usually a few being worked and shown actively, but the rest get minimal time and less personal attention. 

Vaccinations, heartworm, flea meds, etc. Most breeders will vet their dogs at home, and have different preventative care measures than most pet owners. Rabies is the only one that has to be given by a vet so the rest is usually done at home. 

Housing - living inside vs. outside. Most people with many dogs will have to rotate dogs through outside kennels with some house time or kennel full time. Most (if not all) larger scale breeders house their dogs in kennels and outside runs. Some companion owners consider it abuse if a dog lives outside. 

Behavior - different behavior and demeanor is expected when a dog lives in a companion home vs. living in a kennel as a breeding dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

As usual, qbchottu FTW.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lilie said:


> That end will result in a few working homes, maybe a breeding home or two as well as some 'pet' homes.
> 
> Not every dog that comes from a reputable breeder ends up being the next champion anything. Nor is it bred.
> 
> A pet home should be just as important to a breeder.


I'm not sure how this follows based on what I said? I'm not making any statements about what is more "important".

I guess I see this more as one's intent, not what people out there are doing with their dogs, does that make any sense? Everyone can place their own level of importance on owning dogs for breeding vs. companionship. Someone that intends to get a dog as a pet vs. intends to get a dog for breeding is making a different set of decisions. When I said the "means to the end" I mean the "end" as in the direction of the breeding program itself, not puppies being sold as pets. What is the breeder keeping back and why. Just because the majority of puppies are sold does not mean they are bad but that should say something about the breeder's goals and the direction they are taking. It's interesting to see which dogs they are holding back, which dogs they hold back and then decide to sell (and where they sell these dogs to)...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Nice to see everyone on the same page for a change.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL we probably are more than we know


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a HUGE one that always gets to me is the spueter question. Whenever we get one of those on the forum its shocking to me how many times 95% of the advice is to keep the dog intact with no regard for the person's knowledge or level of responsibility. Pet owners love to leave their dogs unsupervised in barely fenced in yards and go to dog parks to sip on lattes lol.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.


 
Marketability. Breeders are producing a product. Everything they do within the GSD world will directly effect their ability to be a 'reputable' breeder. Including but not limited to where they house their dogs, what they feed their dogs, how many dogs they have etc. 

Pet owners don't have to prove anything to anybody in the world of the GSD. They aren't attempting to market their dogs. What ever they chose to do with their GSD is done for enjoyment of the sport with their dog. Even if it's tossing a ball in the back yard.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> I wasn't "offended", I just don't like the phrase a "GSD must do Sch to be happy".


I've seen too many GSDs that need that outlet for their drives placed in pet homes or homes that are going to do some sort of sport that still doesn't give the dog enough outlet. Someone at my club currently has an 8 month old pup that has AMAZING drive, but she needs more than what she's getting. The lady planned on doing agility with her but just doesn't have the time to train the dog as much as the dog needs it...small kid at home takes up too much time.

Those were the kinds of dogs I was referring to...sadly they're becoming more and more popular as people think its "cool" to have a high drive dog with little or no off switch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Really? I don't remember a single speuter thread where someone hasn't stated "if you are confident you can prevent" then perhaps waiting until maturity is better. Otherwise, people state to speuter. Mostly people just present the facts, and some theories, on health reasons and let the owner make up their own minds without assuming the owner is a complete moron. Maybe it's how you read the threads that make the difference in what you take from it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wonder if cliff it watching this thread tell him what he already suspects 

Anyway...one tangible difference I've noticed is that most pet owners will take their dog to the vet regularly, even for annual or 2x a year exams, and are likely going to get all vaccines, medications, and parasite prophylactic from their vet. Most breeders I know take a dog to the vet when something is wrong. Many will not even bring in puppies because they can be subjected to all sorts of things their immune systems aren't ready for. Most will do their own vaccines, de-worming, parasite prophylactics, and are even stocked with common medications and broad spectrum antibiotics.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I've seen too many GSDs that need that outlet for their drives placed in pet homes or homes that are going to do some sort of sport that still doesn't give the dog enough outlet. Someone at my club currently has an 8 month old pup that has AMAZING drive, but she needs more than what she's getting. The lady planned on doing agility with her but just doesn't have the time to train the dog as much as the dog needs it...small kid at home takes up too much time.
> 
> Those were the kinds of dogs I was referring to...sadly they're becoming more and more popular as people think its "cool" to have a high drive dog with little or no off switch.



I know what you're talking about. I see it too. But the thing that drives me a little bit crazy about Schutzhund, is that Schutzhund was originally developed as a test. It wasn't the be-all end-all, object for breeding and raising dogs to compete in like it is today.

Of course there are going to be dogs of different drives. And of course genetics will dictate which drives those are. But in my very limited knowledge, it seems to me that the GSD was supposed to be a dog capable of doing almost anything. Not just Schutzhund.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Anyhow, I feel that that's slightly off-topic. So that will be the last post I probably make on it and unless its somehow appropriate.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First, let me make clear that this post has nothing to do with one being elite over the other( I don't see things that way), though it would stand to reason that breeders Should be more knowledgable about the breed because of their intent to further the breed. Also, the posts that reflect that the OP thinks one right/wrong, or superior, or degrading in comparison to the other does not reflect my thinking, but more so their own hang ups that should not be projected to me.
Now, there was some good dialogue, from my original intent, from gbchottu, Lies, Jax08, Martemchik, and many others. The intent of the post was not to judge pet owners or breeder owners( though some just can't help themselves...lol), the intent of the post was to discuss the DIFFERENCS in how pet owners may view and execute things differently than breeder owners. Neither is right or wrong( I thought I referenced that in OP), but different circumstances often lead to different approaches and opinions....that's all.
I will say as Jack's Dad implied, some of the responses are definitely trying to read things into this so they can be judgemental.....sorry ....was not my intent and fortunately most got that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Liesje and gbchottu....excellent information from my original intent!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My point is you cannot generalize it that way. There's all classes of breeders, and there's all classes of "pet owners". I'm a "pet owner" because I s/n and do not breed my dogs (at this time). But I do things more like a breeder might as I study on the breed(s) I own and I "home vet", we don't rush to the veterinarian unless one's ill and I can't figure out and fix up what's going on, etc. 
Yet I know others who may not know anything, their dog lives outside, they buy vaccines from feed stores and don't rush off to the vet, either, and their dogs are sickly. Mine aren't sickly, they are quite healthy.
We bargain hunt due to the rescue and the sheer amount of dogs we deal with, rather like a breeder might, yet feed quality food in a price we can afford.

And yes, I've seen the term "pet parent" used in such derogatory ways here on this board, it's hard to think of categorizing owners as anything but derogatory. Pardon my "hang up".

I agree with martem. Rarely does anyone suggesting owners wait until "at least 18mos.-2yrs." even ask if the owner has a fenced yard...everyone tends to assume the new owner with one post here is as responsible as they are (or think they are).


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am a pet owner. And I am not nearly as knowledgeable as I am hoping a breeder would be about the breed. I am sure things are seen and done differently between the two. I just have to think about my 1 dog (or 2) in the here and now, compared to a breeder who has more dogs and has to think into future generations. 
I have taken Stella to a breeder/trainer. His expectations of her are a lot higher than mine. Would I like a really close, focused heel??? Sure I would but I will settle for walking nicely beside me. 
Even though she is just a pet, I hope she represents her breed well. That is why I as a pet owner try to learn as much as possible. And reject the dog park latte crowd. Not that it wouldn't be nice to be able to do that, but my GSD is not the dog park/latte type. And she isn't even a high drive dog. (thankfully. I wouldn't have the time or energy for that) 
I agree that there are many pet owners that really don't understand the needs of their dog and are perhaps mismatched. And I suppose that is why many go into shelters....
I have had GSDs growing up but I have to say I never realized how much more work they are than some other dogs. I guess my dad did all the work when I was a kid. :smirk: It has been quite the learning experience. 
What is funny to me is that a lot of "average" pet owners think I am a fanatic about my dogs. Why? Because I try to train them, spend time with them, and learn about them. 
I guess not only are breeder owners and pet owners different....it can be broken down further into "serious" pet owners, I want a pocket puppy pet owner and the latte at the dog park owner?????


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's knowledge about the breed and there's knowledge about bloodlines, you can have one and not the other 

Just as there's good breeders and bad breeders, there's good, average and better owners, I'm sure.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I wonder if cliff it watching this thread tell him what he already suspects
> 
> Anyway...one tangible difference I've noticed is that most pet owners will take their dog to the vet regularly, even for annual or 2x a year exams, and are likely going to get all vaccines, medications, and parasite prophylactic from their vet. Most breeders I know take a dog to the vet when something is wrong. Many will not even bring in puppies because they can be subjected to all sorts of things their immune systems aren't ready for. Most will do their own vaccines, de-worming, parasite prophylactics, and are even stocked with common medications and broad spectrum antibiotics.


Yup, ditto on that. 

I may not be a breeder but that's how I was brought up. There can be a year of me not going to the vet and then all of a sudden you see me there on a weekly basis. Except for Rabies, I'm doing the vaccinations myself. I've got a broad spectrum of Antibiotics which I collected over the time and also common medications, ointments, etc. 

I've got more medication for the dogs than I've got for myself and most likely you will see the same thing, not only for breeders but with working dog handlers that have the same kind of mind-set. At least I know that all the serious SAR people I know, think the same way.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I can call my female dogs "bitch" and that is a compliment and call my males studs without being vulgar. I look at physical characteristics different than a pet owner. And I know more about the genetic make up and bloodlines of my dogs than most pet owners know about theirs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Except for Rabies, I'm doing the vaccinations myself. I've got a broad spectrum of Antibiotics which I collected over the time and also common medications, ointments, etc.
> 
> I've got more medication for the dogs than I've got for myself and most likely you will see the same thing, not only for breeders but with working dog handlers that have the same kind of mind-set. At least I know that all the serious SAR people I know, think the same way.


Most the rescues I know of do this as well (as do we).
We'd go broke taking all these dogs back and forth to the vet for their "boosters" and "wormers". 
Except s/n and rabies, we do most of the other stuff, including microchipping, ourselves.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> I can call my female dogs "bitch" and that is a compliment and call my males studs without being vulgar.


LOL this is a good one! I have to catch myself at work when talking to the other few dog fanciers or scheduling something dog-related on the phone.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

At one of our first nosework classes I was talking to another lady (who breeds a different breed) about how she has been so successful always getting nice size litters from her male dog and never missing when she does a breeding. What she said was mostly scientific but I think the other folks listening in were scandalized!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am a pet owner...my dogs are in the house for the most part, and sleep on the furniture.

I am a breeder. I am passionate about the integrity of the breed, and the problems rife within the breed. I don't do what I feel are high risk breedings - to get one super pup and 3 average and 2 that are so flawed in some way that they will break someones heart with temperament or health problems. But I have bred some pretty nice dogs who are doing various types of work successfully. 

This thread is pretty fragmented, and I have had a few thoughts as I have read it.

In my opinion - there are just as many kinds of breeders as there are pet owners. There are commercial kennels which have litters on the ground or on the way all the time. There are BYB who breed their pet to a dog owned by some other pet owner to make a few bucks or because they want one just like mom without the foundation of understanding what is wrong with that. There are breeders who have a bit of a clue and who buy a breeding pair or a few females and a male and sell family pets without regard to how their dogs match up, some who are smart enough to market that they have the best of all worlds with their various combinations of Euro/ASL. There are breeders who pure and simple are in business...whether with high quality dogs or dogs living their life out in a run spinning in circles - or dogs stacked in crates in a building who get out of them 3x a day to eliminate - in most of these cases the breeder is making a living and motivated by profit. There are breeders who "rehome" older females when they have failed to conceive for 2 or 3 heats....and the dogs get 6 or 10 months of a real life before they die. And there are breeders (some well known) who take a worn out female out behind the barn with a rifle. And people who don't know about these breeders praise them and call them reputable. 

I have to live with myself. I have to know that I have not produced animals who are mistreated or abused. I sure would like to make some money doing this as I love my dogs but they are expensive when you buy good food, when you vet them as needed, and when you make sure their lives are as enriched as you can give them. 

I have a nearly 12 year old Sch3 male [did not use him for breeding for many reasons - but he has been here since he was 8 weeks old!] and a 9 year old spayed Sch1 female [2 litters for me - born here, will die here] at home right now....my younger generation of future breeding stock [6 females, 2 males - 6 are only 15 to 22 months old and and H litter Sch2 female and an I litter female] are with people right now who can train them as I am physically seriously compromised....my other older female (10 years old and the dam of many titled dogs) is living with one of my puppy owners as juggling two females is difficult when you can not just run up and down stairs or even easily stand up. No one lives in a kennel though.

There is a difference in rehoming a retired female and discarding one. There is a difference in breeding as a passion and breeding as a business. There is a difference in being objective and learning all you can and just breeding because you have intact animals and can make some "easy money".

So a breeder can be a pet owner....I breed because I love the breed. I bred a few horses as well....and definitely bred up from where I started with a clear vision of what I wanted to produce. No, I, don't like alot of what I see out there - both in practice and in actual dogs being produced. I think I have been both lucky and blessed to have started out with a couple of outstanding females pretty much by chance at the beginning, and was able to go forward from there. 

But they still live in the house and sleep on the furniture! 

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ MSvette....I think I can set a scenario up the way it will elicit the discussion I was seeking.....most people understood what I meant, nor took offense or projected negatively what I was trying to say.....but there are always some who see it differently....and thats alright!
Thanks folks.....was a try at some good discussion but probably better to let it die.....Thanks!
BTW, breeders, imo opinion should have knowledge of breed and bloodlines, good owners should have knowledge of the breed....Thanks Msvette for that point


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I was just getting ready to settle in for some good stuff from you "heavy hitters", Cliff!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I am a pet owner...my dogs are in the house for the most part, and sleep on the furniture.
> 
> I am a breeder. I am passionate about the integrity of the breed, and the problems rife within the breed. I don't do what I feel are high risk breedings - to get one super pup and 3 average and 2 that are so flawed in some way that they will break someones heart with temperament or health problems. But I have bred some pretty nice dogs who are doing various types of work successfully.
> 
> ...


Great post Lee.

Unfortunately I don't think you are the norm. There certainly are others like you but not a lot.

I spent months before I found Jack's breeder and I had to wade through a lot of the types of breeders you mentioned before I found his breeder.

I'm in California and if I google GSD breeders in Ca I can instantly find almost every kind of breeder imaginable. It's a circus out there in GSD Land.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> BTW, breeders, imo opinion should have knowledge of breed and bloodlines, good owners should have knowledge of the breed....


I tend to like this quote by cliff


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess where it breaks my heart is people breeding not knowing about the repercussions. Dog on my team is very nice high drive Czech dog. Owner not sure of pedigree but soft ears and loosy goosey ....... was it too much Grim? You know there are some basics and when people don't have that down others pay the price.

After I got Cyra, several said they would have not done that breeding. I was doing the best I knew to do and trusted someone perhaps who portrayed herself as knowing more than she did.

So maybe not judgemental but someone pays the price and usually it is the puppy owner holding the bag.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

martemchik said:


> The idea that a dog might be happier in this household, or that household, *or more that you should adapt YOUR life to the dog or breed rather than the other way around*.


Why can't it be both? I do adapt my lifestyle to accomodate my pets, but they also are expected to adapt to the lifestyle that I'm able to provide for them. Obviously, they'd be happier if I didn't have to work for a living and we could go out and do fun stuff together every day, but that's just not a reality, and I'm sure it's not for many breeders either - unless they're retired or independently wealthy, they need to work too!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I would like to discuss some of the areas where perspectives may be different for breeders owners than pet owners, because in many situations the same advice is not always best.


Which areas do you see the biggest differences in?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yeah Cliff... you started the thread... let's hear YOUR thoughts!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I wonder if cliff it watching this thread tell him what he already suspects
> 
> Anyway...one tangible difference I've noticed is that most pet owners will take their dog to the vet regularly, even for annual or 2x a year exams, and are likely going to get all vaccines, medications, and parasite prophylactic from their vet. Most breeders I know take a dog to the vet when something is wrong. Many will not even bring in puppies because they can be subjected to all sorts of things their immune systems aren't ready for. Most will do their own vaccines, de-worming, parasite prophylactics, and are even stocked with common medications and broad spectrum antibiotics.


Actually I'm a pet owner and I do most of the vaccines myself.  Senior dogs go regularly for checks but healthy younger dogs only go in when sick or need rabies or spay/neuter.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I raise my dog very differently from my breeder. I don't know exactly how she raises her dogs, but I know it's different. When I called looking for a dog, she said most of her older dogs would not be a good fit for me because they were kept back as prospects, and raised very differently from the kind of dog I wanted. I believe she said they were "princesses", very confident, and very sassy. I wanted a low-medium drive, lazy, cuddly dog who is a bit more follower than leader.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Great post Lee.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't think you are the norm. There certainly are others like you but not a lot.
> 
> ...


California is bad for GSD's. (all dogs really) Tons and tons are listed daily in high kill shelters, I see them on Facebook all the time.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Maybe someone needs to define "pet owner" so there's less confusion.
> 
> Is a "pet owner" someone who is gone 10hrs. a day and sees their pet a few hrs. before bed? Does a "pet owner" play frisbee with their dog, or walk it/hike with it/run with it, or merely take it to dog parks while they sip their lattes and chat with their dog park friends?
> Help me out here :shrug:


After a 10 hour day, this pet owner is sitting here with tired full dogs draped over her lap while she reads threads about dogs on the internet.  Of course they have been up since 5:30 since that is how early we all have to get up to go run and play before work. Then they had a good chew session on bones while mom got dressed. After that they got a small breakfast since they already had some bones. While mom was at work they snoozed (probably on her bed or the sofa's where they are not normally allowed when we are home). They protected the house and dog yard. When dad got home he took them out played with them some more, when mom got home they got to go out and play a third time. After that it was dinner time. We will all go out and run again before bed to make sure we are all good and tired. Tomorrow mom is home with them all day so we will work some more on down with the new puppy. Buddy will get a car ride, Tasha will get some extra ball time and Ivan will get more cuddles. Thankfully 10 hour days only come twice a week.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Lies, I totally agree with you on the vet thing. My breeder is my first point of contact should something go wrong with Puppy, because they treat many more common things at home.

Another point I've noticed is:
-Many breeders have kennels for their dogs while many pet people leave their dogs to hang out loosely at home during the day. 

I don't leave my dog loose during the day, so it's not a matter of which is better. I guess with many intact dogs of various genders, it's a practicality to have kennels. Whereas for pet owners, crates/kennels are more of a personal choice rather than a neccesity.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> Actually I'm a pet owner and I do most of the vaccines myself.  Senior dogs go regularly for checks but healthy younger dogs only go in when sick or need rabies or spay/neuter.


:thumbup:

I liked Lee's post 
I like it also that other than initial questions (are they current on vaccines) our vets, none of them, have asked about or pushed diets or vaccines on us!



> After a 10 hour day, this pet owner is sitting here with tired full dogs draped over her lap while she reads threads about dogs on the internet.


But, are you having a latte!?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I liked Lee's post
> I like it also that other than initial questions (are they current on vaccines) our vets, none of them, have asked about or pushed diets or vaccines on us!
> ...


My vet is really good about not pushing stuff on me as well and I like the fact she also is not afraid to recommend holistic items to go along with regular medicine. 

Latte  not this late.  Must admit I made a Starbucks run today at work though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I guess where it breaks my heart is people breeding not knowing about the repercussions. Dog on my team is very nice high drive Czech dog. Owner not sure of pedigree but soft ears and loosy goosey ....... was it too much Grim? You know there are some basics and when people don't have that down others pay the price.
> 
> *After I got Cyra, several said they would have not done that breeding. * I was doing the best I knew to do and trusted someone perhaps who portrayed herself as knowing more than she did.
> 
> So maybe not judgemental but someone pays the price and usually it is the puppy owner holding the bag.


Did they tell you why they wouldn't have done the breeding? 

A lot of people talk. People say a lot of things. Sometimes you have to nod and smile.


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## pariahdogs (Jan 24, 2013)

This is a very interesting post, lots of different points of views and opinions to consider. 

I am a "pet owner". I do not breed. All of my 11 dogs are rescues. My older dogs are spayed/neutered and my Shepherd puppy will be kept in-tact until he is 2+ years old and I feel he has matured enough. I do rescue, I foster and I budget for my dogs. My fiance works full time and I am disabled and stay at home. 

My dogs are all very well cared for. I have a 3 year old owner-trained Service dog. My dogs all have great foundation obedience, and I train for the explicit purpose of putting CGC's on them. I rotate training days with them, usually 3 dogs per day get a 30-45 minute training session, and we also do smaller training sessions throughout the day to reinforce good manners. Most of my dogs will never have a title beyond CGC and I am okay with that. Many of them have been through a lot in their lives and deserve to be happy, well-balanced and allowed to live their lives happily cared for. I do expect my dogs to mind their manners, behave appropriately and respect us. My dogs get taken to the dog park, or hiking. I play tug with them, I play fetch, I make up fun games with them and I clicker train and shape behaviors. They all get exercise each and every day, and we try to vary playtime so it does not get boring. We rotate toys, to keep them "new". We do research on the most appropriate toys, and we try to give them options for mental stimulation and foraging, especially on rainy days. 

We maintain vet care, but we are also very keen on treating at home. We don't run to the vet for a cut paw pad. We don't run to the vet for an ear infection or an occasional bout of vomiting. We treat at home and we keep an eye on it, if we suspect a vet check is needed, then we bring them in. We do our own vaccines [following Dr. Dodd's vaccine protocol], HW treatment, microchipping etc. We bring our dogs in for spay/neuter and rabies, as required by law. Our vet is fabulous and in the past has given us the equipment to treat diseases like parvo from home, and I have the luck to be able to call him up when I have a question, instead of loading a dog in the car and going through the hassle of the vet. But, we also pay a huge amount of attention to our dog's behavior. For example, when my 2 year old husky started vomiting, we watched him overnight and while his behavior had not changed dramatically, his vomiting did not stop after 10 hours and to the vet he went. $1,000 and an emergency surgery later, he was free of the plastic that had impacted in this stomach and now he has made a full recovery. 

I am a big fan of not spaying/neutering until after maturity -- I don't usually spay or neuter until after 1 year of age, or longer, depending on the size/breed of the dog. 

I use flea products "as needed". I tend to use naturals preventatives such as Neem oil or diatomaceous earth in my home, or when we go for hikes in the height of spring/summer. 

Our dogs are all crate-trained and are crated when we leave or when we cannot supervise them. Each and every one of them gets along. They sleep in bed with us at night [or on their dog beds, or their personal futon]. 

We feed a mix of Diamond Naturals and Hi-Tek Grain Free kibble and we also feed prey-model raw. We are buying a 22 acre farm and plan to raise our own livestock [chickens, rabbits, goats and perhaps a few head of cattle] to feed the dogs. We care about what we feed our dogs, we do research on what is best for them and feed appropriately. We are choosing to switch entirely to raw that we have raised ourselves because we want to know where our dog's food comes from and that their food was raised in a clean, humane manner. 

I don't feel as if we are "average" pet owners, especially with the amount of work we put into our dogs and their daily life. I would say 80% of my day surrounds my dogs and their care in some aspect, and I am quite happy with my lifestyle. I don't think I am anywhere near the "elite", but I do know my dogs are happy, healthy and well-stimulated.

I have plans to do schutzhund with my GSD puppy [we have our first club meet this weekend] and I am also interested in herding. I'm not sure where we will be in a year with him, but I am excited about the prospect of trying out something new to me such as schutzhund. 

I will say, even though I do rescue, I am very much pro-responsible breeder. I see very few dogs coming from situations where a responsible breeder is involved, and I see so many "Backyard Breeders" and oops litters and abandoned dogs in my area it is pathetic. It is just the norm for two neighbors to breed their poorly bred Shepherds or **** dogs behind their trailer around here. 

I hope all this makes some kind of sense. I am tired and on pain medication for my back this evening.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Another thing not talked about is pictures. Sounds weird, but I just thought of it.

98% of the pictures of my dogs are stack pics and head shots. Why? Because I am constantly evaluating my dogs. I really am not big on photography, so taking pics of my dogs doing anything other than stacking is rare.

I do a ton of stuff with my dogs, but you wouldn't know it to look at my pictures


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

a breeder having a dog and a pet owner having. both of them
have dogs. a household with children and a household without
children. how do you compare the two?



cliffson1 said:


> In analyzing this, I have come to realize that pet owners and breeder owners tend to look at things from a different perspective, thus point of view.
> 
> Just like the habits and norm of running a house by a childless couple and a family with kids would vary greatly in many areas, it doesn't mean there is a singular right and wrong on how to do it.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

wow, 11 well cared for dogs earning titles and your
handicapped. never complain again people. read the post.

nice going pariahdogs. very nice. :thumbup:



pariahdogs said:


> I am a "pet owner". I do not breed. All of my 11 dogs are rescues.
> 
> My dogs are all very well cared for.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I really like the posts that Gbchottu used on page five, but I wasn't looking to define pet owners, or breeders, or get individual situations as discussion, or SCH being necessary for breeder or owner, or that one was more important than the other,( Smh), ......I was only looking for differences in pet owners...ie....a person who owns a German Shepherd for companionship,.....and a breeder owner..ie...a person who breeds German Shepherds. Of course there are variations of both within the context....but by nature of being one or the other, you will tend to look and do things differently, in many cases. I think answers like vet visits, vaccinations, in house/kennels, knowledge, training, costs, food, etc. are all areas that can have different approaches to handling things but because they are looking at it from a breeder perspective vs pet perspective they do things differently. I have found that when people have an understanding of reasons for differences they sometimes become less intolerable and sometimes more educated. 
I'm kinda sorry I opened the thread, too many people that have difficulty looking at something simply put without trying to push their agenda. This dialogue was about comparing different approaches because of different circumstances( pet as opposed to breeder). Not a referendum on right/wrong, high/low class, individual situations, etc.
Thanks again.....I appreciate the input.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Cliff... someone who owns a horse has a different outlook than somebody who owns a farm and breeds livestock. Same concept.


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## pariahdogs (Jan 24, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I really like the posts that Gbchottu used on page five, but I wasn't looking to define pet owners, or breeders, or get individual situations as discussion, or SCH being necessary for breeder or owner, or that one was more important than the other,( Smh), ......I was only looking for differences in pet owners...ie....a person who owns a German Shepherd for companionship,.....and a breeder owner..ie...a person who breeds German Shepherds. Of course there are variations of both within the context....but by nature of being one or the other, you will tend to look and do things differently, in many cases. I think answers like vet visits, vaccinations, in house/kennels, knowledge, training, costs, food, etc. are all areas that can have different approaches to handling things but because they are looking at it from a breeder perspective vs pet perspective they do things differently. I have found that when people have an understanding of reasons for differences they sometimes become less intolerable and sometimes more educated.
> I'm kinda sorry I opened the thread, too many people that have difficulty looking at something simply put without trying to push their agenda. This dialogue was about comparing different approaches because of different circumstances( pet as opposed to breeder). Not a referendum on right/wrong, high/low class, individual situations, etc.
> Thanks again.....I appreciate the input.


I apologize if I completely missed the point of the thread - I certainly was not attempting to push my own agenda.  I thought if I gave examples of my experiences and method as a pet owner it might make it easier to compare the differences against a breeder, perhaps.

I certainly did not mean to step on any toes, in any case.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

pariahdogs said:


> I apologize if I completely missed the point of the thread - I certainly was not attempting to push my own agenda.  I thought if I gave examples of my experiences and method as a pet owner it might make it easier to compare the differences against a breeder, perhaps.
> 
> I certainly did not mean to step on any toes, in any case.


No need to apologize or feel you've stepped on any toes. The actual agenda of this thread was a bit hazy in the first place. 

Your post was refreshing and moving.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think I understand what Cliff was wanting to discuss.

I drive my dog training friends nuts because I look at dogs through the eyes of a breeder and someone who desires to maintaining the working ability of the GSD. How would they cross with my girls, are they something I would breed, what are their faults, what are their virtues, etc. My helper will tell me about a great dog that he has worked and I will then say, yes, he looked nice and then start tearing the dog apart, commenting on the pedigree.................  I was the same way when I bred horses. Most of them just want a nice dog that they can play with in sport. They don't care about pedigrees, preserving working ability..................


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lilie said:


> No need to apologize or feel you've stepped on any toes. The actual agenda of this thread was a bit hazy in the first place.


:thumbup:



Lilie said:


> Your post was refreshing and moving.


Yes, it was, Pariah! 



> I wasn't looking to define pet owners, or breeders, or get individual situations as discussion


...but in order to discuss differences, you must define "what is", or there's misunderstanding. 

As pointed out earlier, I'm a "pet owner", I own my pets and don't breed, but it overlaps with "breeder" characteristics as defined earlier, because I don't vet as often, my dogs get vax at home (except rabies) and I buy medications in bulk. My dogs aren't vetted 'routinely' but they are first out the door to the vet if ill.
I actually learned some of this (keeping meds on hand, doing home vaccines) from other rescuers, but also a good friend of mine is a GSD breeder in FL and has helped us figure out how/when/what to keep on hand. 

I was trying to figure out if rehoming was one of the "differences" you were hoping to discuss, because it's such a hot button topic, and one not specific to breeders vs. owners, other than the motives behind such rehomings. 

I think if you want to discuss one particular aspect, perhaps it'd be best to just up and say what aspect you'd like to discuss. 

Because as seen, there's a spectrum of ownership, which overlaps with the spectrum of breeders in places, depending on if owners are good/breeders are good (vs. poor owners or poor breeders).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> I think I understand what Cliff was wanting to discuss.
> 
> I drive my dog training friends nuts because I look at dogs through the eyes of a breeder and someone who desires to maintaining the working ability of the GSD. How would they cross with my girls, are they something I would breed, what are their faults, what are their virtues, etc. My helper will tell me about a great dog that he has worked and I will then say, yes, he looked nice and then start tearing the dog apart, commenting on the pedigree.................  I was the same way when I bred horses.


And, to be able to do this without it getting personal. It's not a diss on the dog or owner or trainer, but just reality. Some dogs produce nice dogs in combination, and some don't. 




> Most of them just want a nice dog that they can play with in sport. They don't care about pedigrees, preserving working ability..................


Yup, like when I got Pan. If I'd wanted to buy a breeding stud I probably would not have chosen him. He was *exactly* what I wanted for training and sport, and his temperament turned out to be exactly what I wanted and expected, but his pedigree is one of those "end-user" pedigrees that is great for that sort of thing but contains a lot of really popular dogs so it would be harder to find a really nice breeding combination. The DOG is awesome but the pedigree makes it easy to over-use certain lines/dogs.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I really like the posts that Gbchottu used on page five, but I wasn't looking to define pet owners, or breeders, or get individual situations as discussion, -.


I'm not really sure what you were looking for then since it seems to me like individual situations would be what you would get from such a thread? (i.e. I am a pet owner and this is how I look at it... or I am a breeder and this is how I look at it.... ) I find this thread interesting.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Did they tell you why they wouldn't have done the breeding?
> 
> A lot of people talk. People say a lot of things. Sometimes you have to nod and smile.


I don't do so well with that-I take mini vacations-I have gone sooo many places in my mind in training:help:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I really like the posts that Gbchottu used on page five, but I wasn't looking to define pet owners, or breeders, or get individual situations as discussion, or SCH being necessary for breeder or owner, or that one was more important than the other,( Smh), ......I was only looking for differences in pet owners...ie....a person who owns a German Shepherd for companionship,.....and a breeder owner..ie...a person who breeds German Shepherds. Of course there are variations of both within the context....but by nature of being one or the other, you will tend to look and do things differently, in many cases. I think answers like vet visits, vaccinations, in house/kennels, knowledge, training, costs, food, etc. are all areas that can have different approaches to handling things but because they are looking at it from a breeder perspective vs pet perspective they do things differently. I have found that when people have an understanding of reasons for differences they sometimes become less intolerable and sometimes more educated.
> I'm kinda sorry I opened the thread, too many people that have difficulty looking at something simply put without trying to push their agenda. This dialogue was about comparing different approaches because of different circumstances( pet as opposed to breeder). Not a referendum on right/wrong, high/low class, individual situations, etc.
> Thanks again.....I appreciate the input.



I don't know if I inadvertently was one of those you are referencing, I guess it was a bit hazy at first to me. 

When I talk to my breeder or have been out at his place, he has numerous kennels, always several dogs there he has for training, he has a treadmill, and his shop is stocked with freezers and food. 

He has mentioned to me before that I should build Rocket an outdoor kennel on my property, and I'm sure he would tell me I'm crazy not to be using his crate really anymore in the house. But as a pet owner, and being ok with my dog in the house (he is fine inside) I don't see the need for a kennel at all. 

I always tell him he has multiple dogs, so thinks in terms of multiple dogs and training. I only have *one* dog; my own. So in that regard, I'm always looking at training and food as just a single pet owner. Obviously he is not. 

He has his animals groomed and bathed (I think he has his own grooming facility) and I take mine to the do-it-yourself wash. 

When he's offers me training advice, I know he's thinking from a breeder standpoint-not just my individual situation. He looks at things from a general, much broader perspective than I do.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Thought of another one (apologies if someone listed this already!): the type of screening and diagnostic tests that are performed by breeders vs. pet owners. 

Most pet owners don't bother with hip/elbow/spine xrays, thyroid, cardiac, DM, and so on if the dog appears healthy and there are no hints toward mobility, physiological, or hormonal issues. 

Breeders get prelims done, get hips/elbows at year old to make sure the dog can continue in the breeding program, some have physiological/hormonal tests done, and more seem to be getting genetic tests such as DM or long coat done. The genetic health of a dog concerns a breeder much more so than a pet owner because a breeding dog will be used to produce more generations and the genetic impact of the breeding animal must be considered with greater importance than for a companion that will not be bred. Pet owners on the other hand would be more likely to get routine tests such as fecal or blood work done; whereas breeders would only bring the dog in for those tests IF there was an issue or concern with the dog.

Lisa brought up another solid point. Those who wish to produce will look at and evaluate dogs with an analytical eye. A dog that might look fine conformation wise to 99% of the public would be evaluated by a breeder/competitor using a different set of stringent criteria.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Also, looking at from a critical eye of where and how the dog is really tested. There are so many posts about awesome working ability and temperament on dog "A", but dog "A" is never worked on a strange helper, strange field, higher than club, or just trained/titled and bred.

No real test. Nice dogs - but how can one really validate? There are very few true National level helpers that work dogs correctly (driving dogs correctly, pressure, threat). Lotus Perkins, Marcus Hampton, Joey Leigh..... So, even at highlevel competitons, are dogs really tested?


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Well one thing that comes to mind is the double standard I see all the time. "Good breeders" are supposed to only own X-number of dogs, but at the same time are supposed to always take back a dog for any reason at any time and are not supposed to sell or re-home dogs that they are not using in their breeding program but give them all homes for life, no questions asks. Then there are threads about how hard it is to find good breeders and how rarely they breed dogs or have good puppies available....





Liesje said:


> Did she not say just that? I know for a fact that she does. In fact I think every breeder I know, even ones I wouldn't buy from for various reasons, owns at least one dog that doesn't or can't breed.





Liesje said:


> I guess I see the line as people who own the dog(s) for the DOG and people who own the dog(s) for the BREED. A breeder might sell a perfectly good dog that they might have otherwise enjoyed owning as a pet or sport prospect but do not feel it's a good dog to be bred for the sake of the BREED, whereas a pet owner really only needs to be concerned with getting the DOG that fits their lifestyle and doesn't need to think beyond that. I don't really see either one as better or worse, or more or less important. I do think there is a distinction and I don't think it's offensive to either party to recognize that.





Jax08 said:


> I think the OP stated exactly what he intended. There is no judgement in his post, just stating what he's observed in his decades experience of dealing with pet owners and involved in sport / working dog owners. No reason to read between the lines of the post.





RocketDog said:


> I am a "pet" owner. I bristle a little bit at posts like this. I don't choose to do Sch for several reasons, all of which are valid by themselves. However, I don't believe that I couldn't handle a high-drive working dog. The point is, the dog doesn't even know what Schutzhund is. They're not born knowing they can do that, or a sport, like agility or flyball. They just need a JOB--something that "works" them. A "pet" owner can certainly find other ways to engage their dog. I just recently had a neighbor with a crazy standard poodle ask me how "The most perfect dog in the world doing"--it took me a minute to figure out he meant mine, compared to his. The difference in behavior is because I engaged my dog from a pup, taught him "things" to do, we train every day and he really thinks a big part of his existence is to be my partner running and hiking. He's a happy, well-adjusted, well-behaved dog because he is getting fufilled. Anyhow, I'm just saying, that Old Joe Schmoe can certainly give a dog a meaningful existence as long as they meet the needs, mentally and physically, of each particular dog. There are many GSD's, past and present, who work on a farm and don't do Sch or agility and I would venture to say they might even be happier than some of the dogs in the world doing those things.
> 
> As for differences, I try to learn as much as I can from and about good breeders perspectives. I want to hear and study the voices of experience as much as possible. Of course, I'm talking about what I think are good breeders, and those IMHO are people who have spent years in the breed, raising, living with, working, training, breeding and seeing the results of those breedings and others..... All dogs, like I said, start out the same and they have no idea what kind of "jobs" or "life" is out there for them. I like to listen to what people with a long perspective have to say about raising them, about temperaments, about what the good things and bad things of past generations of dogs were and what the good things and bad things of dogs today are.
> 
> I think there are far too many people who don't consider that at all, and that contributes to the problem of "pet" owners who don't understand what a dog needs.





lhczth said:


> I think I understand what Cliff was wanting to discuss.
> 
> I drive my dog training friends nuts because I look at dogs through the eyes of a breeder and someone who desires to maintaining the working ability of the GSD. How would they cross with my girls, are they something I would breed, what are their faults, what are their virtues, etc. My helper will tell me about a great dog that he has worked and I will then say, yes, he looked nice and then start tearing the dog apart, commenting on the pedigree.................  I was the same way when I bred horses. Most of them just want a nice dog that they can play with in sport. They don't care about pedigrees, preserving working ability..................



I read through the thread and these are all wonderful posts. As well as qbchottu's posts which were too long to quote. LOL


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> As well as qbchottu's posts which were too long to quote. LOL


Verbosity is my downfall!!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Verbosity is my downfall!!


:spittingcoffee: It's rarely a bad thing


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

One thing I have noticed on this forum is the difference in culture of owning pet and even breeding/working/sport dogs. The entire culture evolving around dogs is different from what I am used to. 

If a dog has a serious health issue, I'm not spending 10k on fixing it just because I'm emotionally attached to the dog/pet/live stock and put myself into debt over an animal. I'm taking that animal, stand by it's side and pts. 

I'm not going to get a dog with a limited registration. Yeah, Lee explained it to me that it's kind of like with the pink papers but with the pink papers I have to deal with the SV and not with the breeder. I do not want to have to go back to the breeder to lift limitations. 

I'm not going to get a dog with a knit-tight contract or first right of refusal. 

I'd rather kennel a dog outside than crate it inside in a small confide space all day long. 

These are fundamental differences I cannot get over. I'm very pragmatic when it comes to dog and when I set my mind to it, I have no issues of re-homing, selling or buying a dog. It doesn't mean that you don't love them, it doesn't mean that I won't cry like a baby. I will grief for a period of time but it doesn't keep me from doing what I have to do and when I do have to give up a dog, I will ALWAYS keep the better dog because I am pragmatic and I'm not thinking with my heart but with my head and my head is telling me to keep the better dog out of all I have, even when it means to give up the dog that I had the longest (except for my old boy of course, he has earned his retirement). 

I'm thinking a lot like a breeder but it's just how I was raised and I know I will clash with Americans on this a lot of times and got slammed bad for decisions I have made and anytime I will get a dog, I will think like a breeder/seller and ask myself "Will I be able to sell that dog and at least break even or even make profit?" 
Doesn't mean I'll ever do sell or re-home that dog, but if I get into the situation I want to be able to find a suitable home, so therefore, I don't want the dog to have any flaws. 
To me "being spayed" for example is a flaw and if a dog has a flaw than the dog has to make up for it otherwise (pedigree, drive...etc.). 
If a dog has two flaws (size, spayed, one testicle, soft ear etc.) nope... not going to happen. Just won't do it any longer. If they want to screw someone over, go somewhere else. 

Another thing, breeders know that people most of the time do not have a clue what they are talking about. They use that to blind people. They will NEVER tell you if they do something that isn't all that ethical because they have to upkeep their reputation and once that reputation is gone, it's gone. 

If you know enough about the business you know that most of the stuff that is talked about is total BS and I'm so sick and tired about all that "Oh my we are all soooo ethical, responsible and reputable... we've NEVER EVER would do anything wrong!"

BS! Total BS! I'm not falling for it any longer! 

Too much corruption in the world of dogs. Anywhere you turn or look you will find it. The most legendary kennels have been some of the corruptest. 

So yah. Not sure where I'm getting at. But I'm not as naive as some of the others are and even those put on the pedestal, talking the big talk only cook with fire and water! 

As pet owner, you at least don't have to deal with all that. You just have your dog and stay away from all of it. As a breeder, you have do deal with Drama, BS, Politics, Titling, Money, Costumers, Dogs... 

Honestly, I'd rather be a pet owner. :help:

And now you are allowed to slam me. But this is as honest as it can be. Most people won't tell you that kind of truth. 



Smithie86 said:


> Also, looking at from a critical eye of where and how the dog is really tested. There are so many posts about awesome working ability and temperament on dog "A", but dog "A" is never worked on a strange helper, strange field, higher than club, or just trained/titled and bred.
> 
> No real test. Nice dogs - but how can one really validate? There are very few true National level helpers that work dogs correctly (driving dogs correctly, pressure, threat). Lotus Perkins, Marcus Hampton, Joey Leigh..... So, even at highlevel competitons, are dogs really tested?




Marcus Hampton is a helper that WILL test the heart of a dog and WILL give you an honest assessment and say it how it is.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Good examples of how people think differently Mrs K., of course they do. 

We all have a different frame of reference and sometimes that comes from a not so great breeder, a not so great dog owner, a not so great trainer etc. etc., but we don't always know that the person we're listening to is full of hot air. Sometimes the information is spot on but again, how does the normal pet owner know that? I can't think of any other answer except people who are really interested in a breed, training, feeding dogs etc. learn about them over time and then have to make their own decisions and draw their own conclusions.

I guess one of the disadvantages to having more knowledge than someone else is that the knowledge is only as good as your ability to effectively communicate and drive your point home without insulting or putting the person you're talking to on the defensive. The same holds true in any kind of conversation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Thing is...you guys see what folks on this forum do or talk about, and you think that's how people are. I can tell you they are not.



> If a dog has a serious health issue, I'm not spending 10k on fixing it just because I'm emotionally attached to the dog/pet/live stock and put myself into debt over an animal. I'm taking that animal, stand by it's side and pts.


I feel the same way and I'm not a breeder. Our dog has an elbow condition and we didn't get that surgery. We took a trip to Alaska instead (which cost less, believe it or not)! So shoot me, I'm a horrible owner! But I know tons of folks who can't afford, or simply won't pay for a surgery which has a 30% "success rate". Had the success rate been higher, yes we'd have considered it, but it isn't, unfortunately. 
AND what's more is, most folks I know "IRL" feel the same way we do, even our vet advised against the surgery! He said it's not realistic to expect owners to shell out those kind of bucks for those odds. 

Then there's those who pour out their guts and hearts on these forums and if they don't spent 1k or more fixing up a pet, they are taken to task, they don't "love it", etc. (according to the powers that be on the forum). 

It's rather like a soap opera, and if you choose to open yourself up that way on a forum, so be it, but there's always going to be people who are going to object.

There's people who thrive on the drama on these forums and if there's none happening, they make it up and lie about it. Because here on the 'net, who's going to notice, or care, or try to find out the truth, a lie is so much more fun to talk about!

Using online forum people as examples of how breeders think, or pet owners think and behave is really about the least "real" it gets.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Thing is...you guys see what folks on this forum do or talk about, and you think that's how people are. I can tell you they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We may not always agree with each other and even had a lot of arguments, but I fully agree with every word you've said. Let the perfect tribe be perfect.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think what a lot of people are talking about is the fact that "pet" owners humanize their pets. They think of them as children (I know I do). Where as breeders tend to have other goals in mind and don't think of them as children. Or maybe its that they understand that the animals age much quicker than what "human years" dictate.

My dog is always dependent on me. He's almost 3...but he's an adult. Do I treat him like I would a child? In some situations...but in others I understand that he's an adult dog. But if you consider a 12 year old dog, "pet" people still think of them as 12 year olds...so still children rather than the aging adults they are.

So maybe its the "babying" of dogs that is way different. Dog interaction is looked at differently by breeders than it is pet people that like to go to parks and let their dogs interact. They see their 3 year old dogs running around and frolicking and picture a 3 year old child running around on a playground, then they're shocked when one of those 3 year olds gets mad at another one and starts a fight. They don't see them for the animals that they are.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> *They don't see them for the animals that they are.*


While this is extremely true, not _all _pet owners think like that.

If people didn't think that way, it'd solve the nation's pet crisis(es) I'm sure.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs. K, I totally see where you're coming from. No slamming here. You think like a breeder because you were raised by a breeder.  But because you're NOT a breeder, people assume you are a "pet" owner and expect you to behave as such.

I'm sort of somewhere in between as well--I'm a pet owner, but I'm also in the professional pet industry, so I am held to a higher standard by pet owners... and yet, I see things differently from most pet owners. I've worked in veterinary care, shelters, rescue, and I've been a groomer for 20+ years. I've seen a lot and learned a lot. I understand dog behavior and psychology better than most pet owners, but I'm not a trainer (other than my own dogs). I see a lot of health and temperament issues, but I'm not a vet. I study dogs and bloodlines and genetics, but I'm not a breeder.

I raise livestock also--poultry and dairy goats. Breeding livestock is a totally different paradigm than breeding pets. Genetics are just as important, but since you simply eat your mistakes (literally), the stakes are not as high.

In any case, I have a pretty pragmatic and practical view when it comes to dogs. I love them just as much as most pet owners love their pets (maybe more), but like Mrs. K, right now I cannot see myself spending $10K to save a pet. Mostly because I don't have $10K. If I were in a position where money was no object, sure I'd spend the money--but being practical, in the financial position I'm in right now, spending $10K on a dog would be suicide--I'd be out on the streets with an ailing dog--so I would suck it up and euth. It doesn't mean I wouldn't be wracked with guilt and remorse and grief for the forseeable future, however.

Most of my clients and people I talk to assume I must have lots of dogs of my own, and people are always asking me to foster. The truth is, right now I can't really afford to take care of a lot of dogs, either time-wise or money-wise, in the way they would deserve. We have a cap of 2 dogs and 4 cats, and to be honest, we have one cat who is making trouble, stressing out the elder cat and making him lose weight and pee everywhere. We're managing the problem now with good success, but were the problem to become so insurmountable that one of the cats had to be rehomed, I would re-home whichever one had the better chances of being adopted. Not necessarily the one I've had longest, or like the best, or whatever--it would be the one who would benefit the most from a new environment. It would be incredibly difficult no matter what.

I guess that would be a major difference between breeders and pet owners. Rehoming. Pet owners are often made to feel criminal if they rehome a pet, while breeders, well--that's what they do! Bring dogs and people together.

I admit I get a bit judgmental when people dump a dog because "we're having a baby" or "we're moving to a place that doesn't take pets" but those people simply shouldn't have gotten a pet in the first place, IMO. But you can't ever know the whole situation until you know the whole situation, and most pet owners feel terrible when they have to rehome a pet.

Whereas breeders are expected to put dogs into new homes... so when a breeder has a young started dog for sale, it's seen as a good thing. Whereas we see a pet owner putting up their adolescent pup for "adoption" on Craigslist as a bad thing.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> Using online forum people as examples of how breeders think, or pet owners think and behave is really about the least "real" it gets.


I completely agree.

The amount of time, money, training along with the raw diets, one on one training, behaviorists, massage therapists etc...is an alternate universe to how Joe/Jane average pet owner really lives.

That's not even counting for the schutzhund, fly ball, French Ring, PSA, Agility, Dock Diving or many other sports folks on here belong to.

In the real world most of those classes and sports don't even exist.

Then there are the people who think you are a horrible person if you don't spend many thousands of dollars on a slim possibility of some treatment maybe helping your dog.

This stuff really bothers me. I've said before that I was a single custodial parent of my three daughters. I worked 40 to 60 or more hours a week and then listened to my kids problem. Dealt with the schools, did all the maintenance possible on my home and car. 


My dogs at that time were lucky to get one group obedience class. Their exercise consisted of an occasional hike or maybe one of my girls would walk them.
They got cheap food and vet care only when needed.

That is the real world for a lot (probably the majority) of pet owners.

They are not on forums because they do not have the time.

Yes, most do love their dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In past 3,4 pages there are some wonderful examples being given, it's refreshing to see how many sensible approaches to different things are being mentioned, of course there are going to be some overlaps, but most people are staying onpoint and bringing out some great information....Thanks!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> While this is extremely true, not _all _pet owners think like that.
> 
> If people didn't think that way, it'd solve the nation's pet crisis(es) I'm sure.


Lol I think I had the good ones in mind. The ones that love their pets to pieces and would spend the thousands of dollars for chemotherapy or whatever else their pet needed. The ones that go to the dog park weekly and sit there sipping their lattes.

Sure there are those that abuse, would get rid of their pet in a second, and do all the things that none of us would support...but I don't like to think of those as the "majority" of American pet owners. The majority gives their pets great homes, decent food (and enough of it), and just plays ball once in a while.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The only thing I'd quibble with in Mrs. K's post is her dislike of right of first refusal. I don't know what's wrong with that


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> The only thing I'd quibble with in Mrs. K's post is her dislike of right of first refusal. I don't know what's wrong with that


Because, as a Breeder I wouldn't want to have first right of refusal on any dog that I bought. I can't keep them all so I have to be able to sell them and if I buy a dog, the dog is my property and only mine and no one else has the right to interfere with my property. 

Anyhow, that doesn't mean that I am not in contact with the breeder. I am in contact with Nala's breeder even though I bought her from somebody else and I let Indra's breeder know where she was going not because it was in her contract but because I like the man and have respect for him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sandra a "first right of refusal" clause does not mean you are obligated to *give* the dog back, or that the breeder is obligated to take it. All it means is that if you sell the dog, you offer the dog to the breeder first at *your* price and they have a chance to buy the dog back or not. They are not obligated to buy it and you are not obligated to give it away or even sell it for the original sale price. If you bought a dog for $1500 and then want to sell it later on for double that, you can even with that clause.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That depends on the contract...they aren't all the same in the wording or requirements.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No but the phrase means what I said. It's a legal term that is very common, even outside of selling dogs. I've seen other breeder contracts that are much more explicit but it goes way beyond right of refusal.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I think breeders take a long view. They see more than just the dog in front of them. They all see generations behind that particular dog and generations ahead as well. They see the bigger picture with every dog.

The pet owner sees ONLY the dog in front of them. They might do a little research into that particular dog's pedigree, but rarely see the bigger picture.

Because the bigger picture is so important to breeders, they tend to see individual dogs as either making the bigger picture stronger/better/clearer, or they see the individual dog as making the bigger picture weaker/less clear.

I think that is why selling on breeding dogs is such an acceptable part of a breeder's life. The dogs are more than just dogs or companions. They are kind of like puzzle pieces. If it doesn't fit into your puzzle (or big picture), it really doesn't fit. But it might fit into the puzzle (or big picture) of someone else. 

As far as maintaining a pet or two compared to maintaining a kennel of multiple breeding dogs? I think that unless you have unlimited time and money, you can't expect the two to be cared for in the same manner. When you have multiple dogs, you have to keep an eye on what keeps your time commitment to a manageable level. I know some pet owners that obsess over every little bowel movement, every little morsel of food swallowed. Which is all fine if you have the time and the interest, I guess. But who has the time to do that for ten different dogs, on a daily basis? None of the breeders I know can do that. They go with the management plan that does the most good for the most number of dogs in their care. And what is the most cost effective way to manage those dogs. Being cost effective does not automatically translate to being neglectful, by the way. 
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> One thing I have noticed on this forum is the difference in culture of owning pet and even breeding/working/sport dogs. The entire culture evolving around dogs is different from what I am used to.
> 
> If a dog has a serious health issue, I'm not spending 10k on fixing it just because I'm emotionally attached to the dog/pet/live stock and put myself into debt over an animal. I'm taking that animal, stand by it's side and pts.
> 
> And now you are allowed to slam me. But this is as honest as it can be. Most people won't tell you that kind of truth.


I spent a lot of money trying to fix a dog, testing, medications, hospitalization and emotional stress took its toll. In the end she died anyway and her quality of life well I regret not having ended it sooner... When my Shadow came down with DM, rather than trying to fix him and prolonging his misery when he told me it was time we had one last great day together and then I held him while he was PTS happy without suffering. I think sometimes letting go is the best thing we can do for our animals.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@sit/stay....:thumbup:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

sit said:


> I think breeders take a long view. They see more than just the dog in front of them. They all see generations behind that particular dog and generations ahead as well. They see the bigger picture with every dog
> 
> The pet owner sees ONLY the dog in front of them. They might do a little research into that particular dog's pedigree, but rarely see the bigger picture.


 
But I think there are also plenty of people (not "breeders" or interested in breeding, who are very interested in the pedigree of a puppy before they buy - because they want to know about certain genetic potential for various working endeavors ... though they may be much more interested in researching siblings etc. of recent generations...than thinking ahead but they also want to support breeders who are maintaining various lines of dogs.

For a working prospect, if I had my druthers, it would be a young adult but it is getting to be prohibitive in cost to do that...so taking the puppy gamble ......well.... 

I *get* the thing about rehoming. My breeder knew that if my pup did not work out for his intended job I would find him another home, a good home, and if he was incapable of work due to physical defect, she would simply refund my money and leave me to figure out what to do. I like that kind of honesty and don't expect all these silly warranties. The only warrany I want is a responsible breeding program. She can't take the dog back and I did not expect it. 

But sometimes I think people can go overboard with offloading dogs then getting other new dogs as though they were objects. I do see them as partners and family members even if they are not my furkids. So, maybe there, is the pet owner thing.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> One thing I have noticed on this forum is the difference in culture of owning pet and even breeding/working/sport dogs. The entire culture evolving around dogs is different from what I am used to.
> 
> If a dog has a serious health issue, I'm not spending 10k on fixing it just because I'm emotionally attached to the dog/pet/live stock and put myself into debt over an animal. I'm taking that animal, stand by it's side and pts.
> 
> ...


I hear you... 
Most of times I just take it as interesting information from other culture, like when every time someone wants a dog for protection the person is told to get a gun. It still shocks me a big deal as much as people in this forum would be shocked by the number of stray dogs walking around college and downtown, not sick nor starving, just dogs that are part of our landscape as pigeons or sparrows.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes Catu, many folks want to project their opinions and experiences as the only acceptable way....that's why it's important for us to discuss a wide range of options and differences, to mute the judgemental views based on personal opinions as opposed to facts or reality.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The effort to not be judgemental has resulted in judgemental and somewhat condescending comments from those claiming not to be....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pet owner believes he has the most perfect dog in the world , the breeder is still looking ....


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think part of the problem is the division between breeders and pet owners. (If we are discussing pet owners wanting to breed.) 

The registry I belong to with my Lacy is very strict. No litters by my male can be registered unless he passes specific requirements, including but not limited to health, breed standards and working ability. I can breed all day long, but not one pup will be registered, even if the bitch is the flavor of the year. (Same requirements have to be followed by the bitch as well.)

It greatly benefits my breeder for my dog and I to succeed. It greatly benefits the registry for the correct lines to be utilized when breeding. Bloodlines of all dogs are taken very seriously, even with 'pet owners'.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Yes Catu, many folks want to project their opinions and experiences as the only acceptable way....that's why it's important for us to discuss a wide range of options and differences, to mute the judgemental views based on personal opinions as opposed to facts or reality.


Everyone is judgemental at some point. 

Even you. 

That being said, what you say on a forum and what happens outside the forum are two different things. Who knows maybe I will buy a dog with a limited registration later down the road but I cannot see myself doing it now. 

People learn and constantly change. Society changes and with it the view on dogs and what is acceptable and what isn't. 

Also I do believe that Disney had a huge impact in warping our view on animals.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> The effort to not be judgemental has resulted in judgemental and somewhat condescending comments from those claiming not to be....


That's because everyone has their own ideas and wants to pinhole those who don't share those same ideas. However, it's impossible. No two owners or breeders are alike. Even the sheer act of wanting to categorize owner vs. breeder is pin holing. 

But how is this different than _any_thing else in life?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> That's because everyone has their own ideas and wants to pinhole those who don't share those same ideas. However, it's impossible. No two owners or breeders are alike. Even the sheer act of wanting to categorize owner vs. breeder is pin holing.
> 
> But how is this different than _any_thing else in life?


It is *not* different; that is my point

People are judgemental regardless and we tend to put everything in neat little boxes instead of seeing shades of gray because we cannot escape our genetic propensity to categorize everything including other people, their knowledge, and their motives. Those who judge those who are judgemental are also judging.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> the pet owner believes he has the most perfect dog in the world , the breeder is still looking ....


:thumbup:
Good things, when short, are twice as good.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> It is *not* different; that is my point
> 
> People are judgemental regardless and we tend to put everything in neat little boxes instead of seeing shades of gray because we cannot escape our genetic propensity to categorize everything including other people, their knowledge, and their motives. Those who judge those who are judgemental are also judging.


True!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the pet owner believes he has the most perfect dog in the world , the breeder is still looking ....



Oh, I don't know. What I know now and what I knew when I got Rocket are worlds apart, and both of those ends still fall on the LOW end of the "knowledge scale" of GSD's. Reading and learning stuff on here is fabulous, but it does tend to point out things that Rocket is or isn't. I really have no idea where he falls on the scale of GSD's---it seems to _me_ that he is stable and has a very decent threshold, but in terms of civil aggression, defense, that stuff, I have no idea. But I don't think he's perfect by any means! In fact, the poor dog might be better than I think he is but because he is a WGSL (and not old working lines) that I didn't research the way I probably should've, he gets kind of the shaft from me, heh heh.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> * Those who judge those who are judgemental are also judging*.


Can you say that 5 times fast? :crazy:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well I am judging MYSELF, by saying I was STUPID to attempt this in first place.....you never get to old to do stupid things!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Cliff! Silly you for attempting an intelligent conversation!!

Actually, there is a lot of good information in here. I hope people can read this and see how the other side views things. If we can't accept that others have different views then we are stuck in a very small world in our own minds.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

There is a division that exists on this forum that is not so clear in real life.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Then we also have those that are not breeders yet are also not strictly pet owners. They can be some of the most vocal about what should be and what should not be


Me, me!! That would be me!!
Maybe not as vocal as others, but surely I have a very strong opinion on the subject 



cliffson1 said:


> Well I am judging MYSELF, by saying I was STUPID to attempt this in first place.....you never get to old to do stupid things!


I think its a neat thread. If people want to feel judged, it's their choice.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Catu said:


> I think its a neat thread. If people want to feel judged, it's their choice.


This just happens on the forum...you try to generalize without hurting anyone's feelings but then someone feels the need to quote you and chime in about how "I'm not like that!" Well yeah...none of us are exactly like that but people take one thing you say and think you're talking about them and not about the other 95% of people that fall into the group you're generalizing about. For some reason majority equals 100% and not 51% on this forum.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Also I do believe that Disney had a huge impact in warping our view on animals.


I am a HUGE Disney fan. Grew up in the Disney age and have been there a couple times.

I do NOT see how they influenced anything.

There will always be the two extremes of people that have animals.

The one side thinks their animals ARE their children, want them to have rights like humans and treat them like humans.

The other end thinks of their animals as equipment. If it's not working the way *THEY *want they get rid of it and buy another one.

I despise people that sit at either end of the spectrum. I know people who would be at both those ends. Knew a lady in my agility class that got rid of her Border Jack because it was a half inch too tall for the level at which she wanted to compete. She even tried teaching it to slouch when a wicket was placed on it's back to measure it. The dog was only about 8 months old when she got rid of it. She had a new puppy less than a week later.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I am a HUGE Disney fan. Grew up in the Disney age and have been there a couple times.
> 
> I do NOT see how they influenced anything.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong. I'm a huuuuuge disney fan too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> LOL Cliff! Silly you for attempting an intelligent conversation!!
> 
> Actually, there is a lot of good information in here. I hope people can read this and see how the other side views things. If we can't accept that others have different views then we are stuck in a very small world in our own minds.


Ditto. I actually like this topic a lot and I don't see any mocking, fighting etc. going on, it is very civilized topic. 




> Me, me!! That would be me!!
> Maybe not as vocal as others, but surely I have a very strong opinion on the subject


Me too!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the pet owner believes he has the most perfect dog in the world , the breeder is still looking ....


Oh yes, so true. My dogs are the best in the world and my way of raising them is also the best, and if I can do it why can't the rest of you?  Same sex littermates, multiple dogs and kids I did it, have the t-shirt. Tell me it can't or shouldn't be done, well now you've just ticked me off, after all my dogs are perfect.  

opcorn:

Oh yeah and don't you dare tell me my tailless rescue isn't as pretty as your showline titled dogs. I'll take your head off!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
People is just so funny!

I do think that Carmspack IS right.

My, spayed, female IS perfect. She is all I asked when I got her, she has been a perfect dog to learn many things and I got what was my goal in SchH with her, because then my goal was an IPO-A1. Then she moved smoothly to something that was more for her because protection was not her strong point. She IS the perfect pet because all her feebleness and crankiness are exactly my own. She is possessive and has food aggression. She is usually indifferent with other dogs but if she bites, then there are blood and stitches involved, no warning bites with Diabla. My SO would say the same happens with me. :crazy: We are so similar that we crash each other from time to time and then we don't "talk" to the other in days. Diabla IS the perfect dog for ME, MY goals, MY lifestyle. There you have the pet owner talking.

Akela is one of the best males I've met, not only my opinion, but from those who had seen him work. I went to a seminar with a world level champion and he commended him, then I received comments from friends in Argentina and Colombia that he put us as example in further seminars in LA. Akela is not a flashy dog in obedience, and needs fine tuning in corrections because he is very handler sensitive and I know that at least one litter brother and his father have reacted with handler aggression to harsh treatment in the past. When I bred him I did it not only because of him, but because the combo with the female brough a 3-3 linebreeding on a very nice dog. As much as I love him, I think his son will be better than him today. There you have the wannabe breeder talking.

And guess what... I don't feel judged nor offended.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

carmspack said:


> the pet owner believes he has the most perfect dog in the world , the breeder is still looking ....


Love it!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Catu said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> People is just so funny!
> 
> I do think that Carmspack IS right.
> ...


And there is the crux of it, IMO. To the pet owner many times the dog is family. I know mine are. Catch me on a bad day and yes I will feel almost as offended as if you had judged one of my kids. I get over it quickly but sometimes that first reaction comes out before my brain has time to engage.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Catu said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> People is just so funny!
> 
> I do think that Carmspack IS right.
> ...


I was told numerous times, by others, that my girl is one of the best in this area if not the best. 
I know what I got. She is a phenomenal female and that's why everyone, who crosses her way is impressed by her. 

She is as close as the total package can get, not only working wise, but also confirmation, health and pedigree wise. 

She's got two flaws: 
1. She isn't titled yet
2. She's mine. 

In other hands, that female would be titled and already down with a litter, so maybe it's not a flaw that she's mine at all.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> In other hands, that female would be titled and already down with a litter, so maybe it's not a flaw that she's mine at all.


Why would this be bad? Breeding a female needn't doom them to a life as a milk bar ignored in the dark.

Maybe she'd LOVE being a mom. Maybe you'd learn a whole new side of her and develop a stronger relationship of trust and partnership as you work together to deliver and raise the pups. Maybe you'd have a whole new level of respect for her instincts and her heart as you watched her intelligent, independent brain go to work on the problem-solving of being a mother dog.

My girls who are bred *love it*--if they didn't, I would never breed them again, and I gain a much greater understanding of who they are and how their brain works and it makes me a better owner/trainer/partner for them.

Is this relationship a reason *to* breed a particular dog? No way. But there are many rewards from watching a young female develop into a mother--don't use the "worst case scenario" to form your opinion of what life is like for a breeding female. No more than you would use the worst case scenario of life as a schutzhund dog as the model of what life is like for schutzhund dogs.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Last night while petting my dog, I thought about another way I look at this: for me, as a non-competing pet owner, if I choose to obtain a purebred, that means that I'm attracted to and desire the qualities of that breed. I feel that they are a compliment to me and my lifestyle and I am prepared to handle the breed. I look at my dog as a family member, as some have stated previously (although I don't elevate him to the status of my children, but we love and value him as a dog). 

Ideally, I want a breeder who is breeding for the breed, maintaining and protecting all the good qualities of the breed, so that the dog I finally get will be an excellent representation of it. So that I may enjoy those qualities I desire and admire of the breed and therefore the dog. To use myself as an example, I wanted a GSD because of the activeness and agility of the breed so that it could accompany me on my choice of endeavors; because of the natural suspicion and for lack of a better word in my head, protection tendency of the breed, as I desire this in a canine companion; because of the intelligence and train-ability; and lastly, because I love the look of the GSD. Have since childhood. My favorite dogs of memory were the neighbors GSDs, not our own. 

To do this, yes--the breeder must be willing to have a long-term view of the breed, plus a good rear-view also. The breeder must be willing to let certain dogs go that don't fit into that vision. Otherwise, my chances of getting a GSD who acts like a properly bred GSD are low. This is why it's especially important to the breed to have people willing to move from the pet owner to the breeder side of things. Otherwise, no one wins. No pets, but no working K9's, no herding dogs, not even any sport dogs. And by this I mean, I certainly don't want that responsibility, even if I spent the next 15 years working and learning about the breed, to become a breeder. I just want to enjoy my life with a fabulous dog in it. I thank god there are people willing to do that, so that I can enjoy the fruits of their labours.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:happyboogie::happyboogie::thumbup:.....excellent observation Rocket dog....everyone is valued in the equation, pet, breeder, commercial kennel, hobby kennel, etc....and yet there will be different approached to key elements of the breed from each of them......different!, not superior , that was only intent of OP not knowing I was being condescending....sigh....hopefully this kind of discourse educates and continues to keep our breed strong and relevant.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

It has certainly educated me. I mean, I knew there was a difference between show line and working line dogs, and that it was possible to get a good dog out of both. And that a "reputable" breeder was the way to go if interested in buying a puppy. (Obviously rescue is viable, but not relevant to my point). But that was the extent. Thanks to this forum and these kinds of discussions, I now know so much more and I know that the line genetics are extremely important, as well as the breeder, and that there is a whole spectrum of breeders besides just "good" and "bad", as well as whole spectrums within lines of GSD'S. 

Frankly, it makes my head spin a bit and while I likely will really investigate lines next time, I'm grateful there are breeders that have already done that and are trustworthy enough to rely on. 

But every little bit of knowledge is beneficial and hopefully I can help someone else starting where I did.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Why would this be bad? Breeding a female needn't doom them to a life as a milk bar ignored in the dark.
> 
> Maybe she'd LOVE being a mom. Maybe you'd learn a whole new side of her and develop a stronger relationship of trust and partnership as you work together to deliver and raise the pups. Maybe you'd have a whole new level of respect for her instincts and her heart as you watched her intelligent, independent brain go to work on the problem-solving of being a mother dog.
> 
> ...


The reason I've been having such a hard time to get into Schutzhund is because of how my view was warped. 

Basically everyone in my parents circle got screwed over so bad because of corrupted Judges etc. that they have quit the sport for that reason. 

The reason I got Nala is because her owner didn't want her to become a sport/brood machine. 

If something sits so deep inside you, it's not easy to overcome that. My view on what the sport is and isn't, is warped on what I saw and that wasn't pretty. 

To me, the Sport can be wonderful, with the right people. 
The SV itself is one of the most corrupt organizations out there and that's why I didn't want to get involved with it, at all. And look at me now. 
And then looking into the USCA, just as much politics, just as much "Depends on who you know or don't know.", fraternization and favoritism. 

It's the same everywhere. 
That damage has been done. I cannot view Organizations, Sport and Breeding the same as others do. When I think about the dog world, I think of a big, corrupt boiling pot and that sits so deep inside me that it's hard to overcome that feeling.


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