# American Show Lines - breeders & bloodlines?



## Freestep

As was mentioned in another thread, ASL's tend to take a beating in here... I myself don't like the look of the ASL's, and to me, the temperament leaves something to be desired as well. However, I have met some ASL dogs that were quite nice, and so I know good, healthy dogs of sound temperament are out there. I'm not looking for one, I'm just curious.

So I am curious, what are the bloodlines and breeders of American show lines that produce healthy, sound dogs of working temperament? I do see them in the obedience ring, so I know they can acheive this at least. Are there any breeders whose dogs have gone on to other working venues like tracking, herding, SAR, etc? I have yet to see an American-bred GSD in Schutzhund, so I'd be especially interested to hear of this.


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## cliffson1

I think this thread is an excellent opportunity for the owners/breeders of the ASL, to have an insightful, informative, and productive discussion of these breeders and their dog's accomplishments. With examples of these dogs in these areas to support the assertion that these lines are more than show/pet dogs. I would like to see some names/lines of ASL associated with biddability, nerve strength, work ethic, working, sport, etc. I think this would go a long way toward dispelling the image of this line of dog today.


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## Jax's Mom

SEL CH (US & CAN) Stuttgart's Sundance Kid - German Shepherd Dog
This dog seems to appear quite a bit... I've always wondered what's up with that?


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## Freestep

Jax's Mom said:


> SEL CH (US & CAN) Stuttgart's Sundance Kid - German Shepherd Dog
> This dog seems to appear quite a bit... I've always wondered what's up with that?


Probably just a popular show dog and stud.

I actually think his sire Lochwood's Sundance v Stuttgart isn't a bad looking dog, as American showlines go.

I've heard that Marhaven's Color Guard had a good, working-type temperament, but that is coming from ASL people so I have to take it with a grain of salt.


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## selzer

I think that the specialty dogs and the dog that go into the all-breed rings are quite a bit different. I like the all-breed ring dogs a little better. I really liked Manhatten. Dallas was ok and had herding titles as well, but he died at nine. I do not like some of his progeny, but it is hard to get away from him if you are breeding in that area I would think. 

I recognize some names and have some behind some of my dogs, but I am strongly leaning toward all German show, I just prefer their looks.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I recognize some names and have some behind some of my dogs, but I am strongly leaning toward all German show, I just prefer their looks.


For some reason I thought you were breeding German working lines? Do you breed ASL dogs or do you just have some with that lineage?


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> I would like to see some names/lines of ASL associated with biddability, nerve strength, work ethic, working, sport, etc. I think this would go a long way toward dispelling the image of this line of dog today.


What kind of accomplishments do you think the ASL's should have to dispell the image? 
Are you talking about titles, (I thought you didn't put much stock in titles?) or are you talking about examples of lines that actually "work" at real jobs. K-9's, Search & Rescue etc.? (Schutzhund is not a real job correct??)


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## DunRingill

I started with ASLs. Lara had her Am/Can UD and was pretty darn good at sheep herding.....her roadwork on "C" course was a thing of beauty. She was a pretty tough dog in many ways. Lara was a Reno granddaughter and came from old Colbert lines. 

Here's a pic of Lara at age 10. We were taking pics of my other 2 dogs to register them with UKC and she went out there and posed herself! Never liked to be left out of anything.









Another pic at age 12:









I bred Lara to a German show dog (VA2 (I) Vopo vom Kirschental) twice, and kept a son from one litter and a daughter from the second. Logan was a Canadian and UKC Ch, Canadian group winner (I only took him up there for conformation 3 or 4 times) Am/Can UD and SchH1. So he was only half ASL but definitely all show lines!


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## Freestep

DunRingill said:


> Logan was a Canadian and UKC Ch, Canadian group winner (I only took him up there for conformation 3 or 4 times) Am/Can UD and SchH1. So he was only half ASL but definitely all show lines!


Awesome!

I once had a bitch that had some American blood. She went back to Krieger von Hiatt and Danlyn's, don't know if those are names anyone would recognize but from what I understand, they were old American working lines. She had a good solid temperament, and was my first "Schutzhund" dog although we pretty much washed out of bitework. I did put a CDX on her.


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## PaddyD

Freestep said:


> As was mentioned in another thread, ASL's tend to take a beating in here... I myself don't like the look of the ASL's, and to me, the temperament leaves something to be desired as well. However, I have met some ASL dogs that were quite nice, and so I know good, healthy dogs of sound temperament are out there. I'm not looking for one, I'm just curious.
> 
> So I am curious, what are the bloodlines and breeders of American show lines that produce healthy, sound dogs of working temperament? I do see them in the obedience ring, so I know they can acheive this at least. Are there any breeders whose dogs have gone on to other working venues like tracking, herding, SAR, etc? I have yet to see an American-bred GSD in Schutzhund, so I'd be especially interested to hear of this.


Talk about your patronizing, superior tone. This takes the cake.


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## selzer

I breed GSL dogs, Odessa is, so was Dubya. 

But Babs and Jenna (the ones I have pups out of) are out of Arwen and Dubya. 

Arwen has some German showline 1/4, but also had Von Charisma, Covy-Tucker Hill and some other American lines. She goes back to Don Quixote and Bramblewood's Custom-Made, but also to Canto Von Arminius, and Marko vom Cellerland, and of course Uran. About 1//4 could be American or German, 1/8 I would be surprised if it was not German dogs, but I can only be sure of some of them, and it is all way back there now. 

Rush I bought and his dam was all German Showline, his sire was about half and half American/working. I bred him one time to Babs and was not enthusiastic about the consistency or quality of the litter.

Jenna, I bred her to an all German Showline dog and am very happy with the results. 

Jenna and Babs are 5/8 German showline. 
Joy, Bear, and Dolly out of Jenna/Gispo are 13/16 GSL.

Arwen was a special bitch and there are things I love about her. But I also like the German dogs. Gotta choose.


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## Freestep

PaddyD said:


> Talk about your patronizing, superior tone. This takes the cake.


Wow, I thought I was putting it quite politely compared to other comments I've heard.

I take it you have ASL's and like them... so, tell me about them!


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## Freestep

Do you show in AKC conformation?



selzer said:


> Arwen was a special bitch and there are things I love about her. But I also like the German dogs. Gotta choose.


Tell me the things you love about her, and how she is different from the German dogs.


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## selzer

I was going to sit this fight out, but I will say, that my 3/4 American line dog got her CD in three ring appearances and took first place every time -- my first attempt at the obedience ring. We always said she was half human. She listened to paragraphs moreso than commands -- understood English perfectly. Was loyal, and a really special bitch. The only thing she ever did bad was die too soon. More than a year later, thinking of her still brings tears to my eyes. 

When people diss the American line dogs it is like a dig on my girl. When people who have never owned a well-bred ASL dog, sit there and parot all the negative things that have been parotted over and over again about our dogs, like a broken record, but with little or no knowledge of them, well it gets old. I wish that people would remember that there are people who own and love these dogs, and there are poorly bred dogs, and dogs with problems in all the lines.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> When people diss the American line dogs it is like a dig on my girl. When people who have never owned a well-bred ASL dog, sit there and parot all the negative things that have been parotted over and over again about our dogs, like a broken record, but with little or no knowledge of them, well it gets old. I wish that people would remember that there are people who own and love these dogs, and there are poorly bred dogs, and dogs with problems in all the lines.


That is exactly why I started this thread. I want to hear the GOOD stuff about ASL's.

I personally don't like the way some of the dogs look--that is just a personal opinion, however. I've met some ASL's with nervous, flighty temperaments and some with good, solid temperaments. I've met German dogs with nervous, flighty temperaments and some with good, solid temperaments. It's all about breeding and what is being bred for. It's a disservice to the GSD when people breed them based solely on appearance or sidegait, and I've met some show people that seem to hold this above all else. German and American. At least in Germany there is a courage test, in America we have obedience and other performance titles but they are optional. I want to know who in the ASL world is going the extra mile.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> Do you show in AKC conformation?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me the things you love about her, and how she is different from the German dogs.


Arwen was never a conformation show dog. I took BOB and second in group in a match with her daughter, Heidi. I put Joy (grand daughter) through conformation classes. Frankly, I do not have the conformation to show shepherds in the breed ring. Not the dog, me. I worked a lot harder in a conformation class than I have ever worked in obedience, rally, or even agility. I think it takes a certain personality too.


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## Jax's Mom

selzer said:


> When people diss the American line dogs it is like a dig on my girl.


Am I the only one who finds it amusing that someone will actually sit down in front of a computer and have nothing better to do than to knock the lines of anther person's dog?
...I can understand sitting in front of Facebook and starting fights about things that are almost remotely my business but to find some random person on the Internet who I will almost certainly never meet and then have an opinion on their dog's parents? :rofl:


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## lonestarag05

selzer said:


> Arwen was never a conformation show dog. I took BOB and second in group in a match with her daughter, Heidi. I put Joy (grand daughter) through conformation classes. Frankly, I do not have the conformation to show shepherds in the breed ring. Not the dog, me. I worked a lot harder in a conformation class than I have ever worked in obedience, rally, or even agility. I think it takes a certain personality too.


Great posts selzer, thanks.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> That is exactly why I started this thread. I want to hear the GOOD stuff about ASL's.
> 
> I personally don't like the way some of the dogs look--that is just a personal opinion, however. I've met some ASL's with nervous, flighty temperaments and some with good, solid temperaments. I've met German dogs with nervous, flighty temperaments and some with good, solid temperaments. It's all about breeding and what is being bred for. It's a disservice to the GSD when people breed them based solely on appearance or sidegait, and I've met some show people that seem to hold this above all else. German and American. At least in Germany there is a courage test, in America we have obedience and other performance titles but they are optional. I want to know who in the ASL world is going the extra mile.


I think that you are coming at it from the working line perspective. Let's face it, getting a working line dog a placement at a show is an event. I am sure that the working line people feel the same way about show line dogs in their venues. Having a showline dog function as a SAR dog or a Police dog is an event. 

A police dog doesn't have to be pretty, it has to be funcitonal. 
A show dog does not have to be a police dog, it has to be functional, and pretty. 

Let's turn this around, working line people, who goes the extra mile, who puts CH titles on their dogs? There ARE some. But the majority of the working line people will say, who cares? Who wants the politics? Why would we take our dogs there, when we know what they are looking for? The dogs are working dogs, there should not be any shows, they are the ruination of the breed. And so on and so forth until we are all ready to toss our cookies. 

Dallas had herding titles. Many, many showline dogs go for obedience, rally, some agility titles. I know of German showline dogs who are/were police dogs, military dogs, search dogs, and the like. I do not know of as many AL dogs that do that, but I am sure there are or were many before the big shift.


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## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> When people diss the American line dogs it is like a dig on my girl. When people who have never owned a well-bred ASL dog, sit there and parot all the negative things that have been parotted over and over again about our dogs, like a broken record, but with little or no knowledge of them, well it gets old. I wish that people would remember that there are people who own and love these dogs, and there are poorly bred dogs, and dogs with problems in all the lines.



Thank you, Selzer. I'm glad you wrote that. I've been complaining all morning to my boyfriend, about this very subject. I'm relatively new to this forum. I've come from another breed where we don't have this split. I'm kind of amazed that there are so many people on here that constantly make digs on the ASL dogs, completely forgetting that they are the beloved pets of many of us here. 

Every time someone makes a snide comment, or outright slamming statement, about the ASL, I'm always a bit shocked. I don't want to feel like I have to apologize for my dogs. They need no apology. 

My two GSDs are American showlines. They are gorgeous. They are healthy. They have lovely temperaments. They aren't hock walking, crippled, weak tempered freaks. I love how they look. I love how they act. I love how they move. They are so much fun to live with. My breeder wants a beautiful, great moving dog, with a stable temperament. That's what I want, and that's what I have.

I show them in AKC conformation. I want to try my hand at tracking with them, agility, herding, rally, obedience, whatever activities I can scrape up here in my area. I have no doubt that these girls can do one or more of these things. 

That's my little rant. I'm not a breeder. Don't want to be a breeder. I just want to be able to be on this forum, and not feel like my dogs are the red-headed stepchildren of the group.


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## Andaka

Jax's Mom said:


> SEL CH (US & CAN) Stuttgart's Sundance Kid - German Shepherd Dog
> This dog seems to appear quite a bit... I've always wondered what's up with that?


I have based my breeding program on this dog mixed with Kubistraum's Kane.

Sundance Kid, better known in the ASL dog show world as Bear, was a remarkable dog. He was a large dog of high drive but not particularly biddable. He lived to be 13, and was awarded Best Of Breed at a specialty show at the age of 11 1/2. My foundation bitch was his 78th champion. He was aso known for producing good hips.

Kane was a smallish, dark dog with great style. His line is more known for their biddablity. Together they were known as one of the great "clicks" of their time.



Ch. Andaka's Kahla of Zederland CD









Keno was my heart dog -- he did everything I asked of him and then some. Keno was a slow maturing dog physically, so we did performance titles while waiting on him to grow up. He had his CDX (3 forsts and a High in Trial) when he finished his championship, and went on to get his UD (2 firsts and a third), his Open Agility title, and his Herding Started title (first place). Keno was a Kahla son linebred on Bear and Kane.

Multi Ch. Andaka-Zederland's Keno UD HSAs OA HTD1 HRD1 Can CD


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Let's turn this around, working line people, who goes the extra mile, who puts CH titles on their dogs? There ARE some.


I would like to know about that as well! I've thought of showing my working line girl in AKC conformation, but I'm completely clueless about showing in conformation, and I know it takes a lot of time, money, and effort to do it.

I'm not a breeder, but if I was, I probably WOULD show my dogs. Whether or not they win, I love to see working dogs--of any breed--in the show ring. Just as I love to see show dogs in working venues. In just about every working/sporting breed, there's a major split between working dogs and show dogs. I wish that split didn't exist. 

So many breeds have taken "pretty" to such an extreme that they are no longer functional at their original purpose. I'm thinking about Cocker Spaniels, who are supposed to be hunting dogs... could you imagine a show Cocker, with all that hair, out in the field??


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## selzer

dogfaeries said:


> Thank you, Selzer. I'm glad you wrote that. I've been complaining all morning to my boyfriend, about this very subject. I'm relatively new to this forum. I've come from another breed where we don't have this split. I'm kind of amazed that there are so many people on here that constantly make digs on the ASL dogs, completely forgetting that they are the beloved pets of many of us here.
> 
> Every time someone makes a snide comment, or outright slamming statement, about the ASL, I'm always a bit shocked. I don't want to feel like I have to apologize for my dogs. They need no apology.
> 
> My two GSDs are American showlines. They are gorgeous. They are healthy. They have lovely temperaments. They aren't hock walking, crippled, weak tempered freaks. I love how they look. I love how they act. I love how they move. They are so much fun to live with. My breeder wants a beautiful, great moving dog, with a stable temperament. That's what I want, and that's what I have.
> 
> I show them in AKC conformation. I want to try my hand at tracking with them, agility, herding, rally, obedience, whatever activities I can scrape up here in my area. I have no doubt that these girls can do one or more of these things.
> 
> That's my little rant. I'm not a breeder. Don't want to be a breeder. *I just want to be able to be on this forum, and not feel like my dogs are the red-headed stepchildren of the group*.



Don't worry, the red headed step children of the group are the white dog owners 

They get it from all ends: yours are not even German Shepherds, only BYBs breed whites, they all have nasty temperaments, how can we possibly have one on our banner at the top of the page?!?

Well folks, they have white listed under the colors for GSDs on the AKC registration application.

You can show them in the UKC.

I saw an awesome white guy doing Utility at a show where I was getting my CD with Babs. 

I do not want a white, a black, a liver, a blue, a sable, a bi or a purple and pink spotted one, but I appreciate that many people love their dogs regardless of lines or colors. They are all GSDs and we have way more similarities and shared concerns, than differences.


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## Andaka

Kizzy was a beautiful girl and smart too. She finished her championship with a Herding Group first and her Herding Started title with Reserve High in Trial at our National Specialty. Instead of retiring, she went on to second career as a show dog for a Junior Handler. Kizzy was a Keno daughter.




















Tag was an amazing dog, and I miss him very much. He was the #2 German Shepherd show dog for 2004, and was awarded an "Award of Merit" at Westminster in 2005. He earned his CD with a High in Trial, and we really enjoyed Rally for several years. But most important to me was the assistance he gave me when I was injured. I fell showing him in the Herding Group at a dog show and broke my shoulder. I had to sleep in the recliner for 8 weeks, so I need Tag's help to get our of the chair -- he would pull the pillow from under my feet, pull me up from the chair, and steady me on the way to the bathroom. He would then help me up from the toilet and steady back to the recliner. He would then pick up the sheet and pillow from the floor so that I could get comfortable again. Another time I slipped going down the stairs and bounced down, hurting my back. I spent 12 days in the hospital and Tag took care of me when I came home. He would pick up things that I dropped, and balance me when I walked. Tag was a Keno son.


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## wolfstraum

I am a purist. This is a working breed. They do not have to be ugly to work. I have seen gorgeous police dogs (go look at Kutter vom Landesberg - German Shepherd Dog) and Tonka v d Polizie....working K9s....

There has to be a balance - functional structure/temperament/working ability - they intermesh. The breed IS a working breed. 

Personally, I HAVE seen a few ASLs at schutzhund clubs - a few have done enough to get titled at home field, on home helper with minimal scores....they would not do well in Breed or Specialty...more BYB old ASLs than current style....I have showed AKC OB in Specialty shows - and trust me, I might as well be a 3 headed Hydra as in that ring...and I have taken a Belgian born WL into AKC matches and won BOB with 2nd in Group under a judge who WAS an AKC judge! Some of you will remember Danger...a Basha son....awesome dog.....










at the AKC match where he got BOB & group 2nd - about a year old










at about 6 months, stacked by well known German handler

I have to be amused at the high handed people who want to VOMit at the popularity of WL GSDs - snark at them, but get insulted when called on it....BEAUTY is in the eye of the beholder - BEAUTY is one part of the total dog - not the end result. 
Danger is SG, (never koered to go V), Sch1, RH1, and certified as an SAR dog via IPWDA in several disciplines...also CGC on a cold turkey test in a strange building and 1 leg on a CD before he went to Vermont to live.

Lee


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## selzer

This is one of the dogs behind Arwen that I really like the look of. 
Covy Tucker Hill's Hyclass Sun - German Shepherd Dog

Unfortunately I do not know much about the dog.


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## selzer

Andaka, nice dogs all of them. 

I did take one of my youngsters in the ring with sheep and she did really well. Would like to get into that, but when you got the time...

Lee, I like Danger, I am glad he did well in the ring. But yeah specialty shows are, well, special. 

I guess I do not like the total discount of all that a show dog might accomplish -- like what Andaka printed up there, if it isn't biting the sleeve, well it just isn't a GSD mentality. There is an awful lot of work that goes into showing dogs. And the ones that get up there on their merits, they are not nerve bags -- how could they be in that environment. 

If we discount show line dogs because they do not title in schutzhund, then we should also discount working line dogs that do not have a conformation championship. And the remaining dogs better be awesome producers.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think Daphne has the most versatile dogs out there when it comes to ASL dogs. 

One of mine was ASL, not a show dog, not the brightest bulb in the box, over standard in size, but he was a handsome dog

There used to be MANY ASL dogs that I would have taken home, years ago, todays' dogs, I see quite a few that I like, but alot I don't particularly care for. 

Alot of them in the specialty rings around here, do not impress me, I see more of what I like in All breed or obedience. 

I like a dog with brains, doesn't matter the lines, everyone loves their dogs as it should be, to 'bash' one because of their choice is not right. I think all gsd's are beautiful in their own unique way


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## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> I guess I do not like the total discount of all that a show dog might accomplish -- like what Andaka printed up there, if it isn't biting the sleeve, well it just isn't a GSD mentality. There is an awful lot of work that goes into showing dogs. And the ones that get up there on their merits, they are not nerve bags -- how could they be in that environment.
> 
> If we discount show line dogs because they do not title in schutzhund, then we should also discount working line dogs that do not have a conformation championship. And the remaining dogs better be awesome producers.


Well said! 

My girls go to class every week to learn how to show. It's not easy. You think it would be. I mean how hard is it to trot around the ring, and stand still when someone looks at your teeth, lol? There is WAY more to it.

Since I bought these girls, and made the commitment to show in conformation, I also feel they should do something in other venues too. Brains and beauty as Daphne says.  

We have members of our local GSD club that do other things besides just show in AKC conformation. One woman is working on her UD with her shepherd (he is also pointed in AKC conformation). She has put many advanced obedience titles on her dogs, as well as agility and herding. Someone with a conformation champion just got a HIC recently. 

One of our 9 year old junior handlers just put a CGC on his GSD that he is showing in conformation. I'm pretty sure that is only the beginning of what he and his ASL puppy will accomplish!


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> If we discount show line dogs because they do not title in schutzhund, then we should also discount working line dogs that do not have a conformation championship.


In Germany they have to have both, and I'd like to see AKC do something like that, but it will never happen.


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## Castlemaid

Freestep said:


> So I am curious, what are the bloodlines and breeders of American show lines that produce healthy, sound dogs of working temperament? I do see them in the obedience ring, so I know they can acheive this at least. Are there any breeders whose dogs have gone on to other working venues like tracking, herding, SAR, etc? I have yet to see an American-bred GSD in Schutzhund, so I'd be especially interested to hear of this.


I would love to hear of some of the accomplishments of the American showlines. For the people that have been involved in the breed 30 - 40 years ago, there was not differentiation/split between the lines, and many remember fondly the wide variety of working endeavours the american bred GSDs where able to carry out. SAR, Guide-dogs for the blind, Police Dogs, detection dogs. Surely some of that working ability has been preserved in some lines where the breeders still give that ability consideration? Andanka here has example after example of such dogs from her breedings. 

Anyone else care to share? To show? To list examples of dogs that they have known or have heard about? The question was not one of bashing, but one of wanting to learn. So no bashing, from either side. (And that means selzer isn't allowed to bash the Schutzund training and working lines - oke: this thread is about American Showlines, so let's keep it at that).


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> In Germany they have to have both, and I'd like to see AKC do something like that, but it will never happen.


I am ignoring Lucia's comment. 

But I must comment on this. The AKC is not anything like the SV. They are apples and oranges. Germany does not have an all breed registry. They have many individual breed registries. It makes a LOT of difference, and this is part of the reason I am going more toward the German Showlines. I like that they require more than just a placement in a ring to be considered the top dog for the year.

And we have something in the Specialty ring anyway, that is NOT noticed by the AKC. At the nationals, they do designate the Grand Victor and the Grand Victrix and that is noted by the AKC. But they also slate some dogs as VA -- kind of like the German ring. I know that OFAs are a port of that, which is good, but I do not know all the other requirements. I wish the OFA would embrace this, they have some other things they do like ROM -- register of merit, where points are given to a bitch who has some type of show win, and then on to the progeny, each champion, so many points, each obedience title etc, etc. And they list to top ROM dogs, by producing and inactive. 

There is a lot more to this that prettying up your dog and heading for the show. There is a reason, if a breeder sells the dog as a show prospect, they will be upset if you do nothing with their dog. They are probably counting on that pup to help them earn their ROM. And that is really awesome when you think about it. It means that your dog gets credit for producing well, good, good, good.

But the SV is a GSD club. Like the GSDCA, but with more clout. They can say, thou can or thou canst breed your dog. They have hoops the dog much jump through in order to produce dogs with the proper paperwork. What is important in Shepherds may not be important in corgis or bolognese dogs. To say across the board, every dog whose owner wants to be able to register puppies must get a schutzhund title on the dog. Huh? Do you really want to see little Yorkies, and docile English Setters attacking the sleeve. 

No thank you very much. The AKC is an all breed registry, and they make their decisions with all breeds in mind. their board is comprised of people from many registries. Please do not try to make the AKC what it is not. It is pretty good at what it is, it is terrible at what it is not, and if we try to push the square peg into the round hole, a whole lot of people will NOT be happy.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> What is important in Shepherds may not be important in corgis or bolognese dogs. To say across the board, every dog whose owner wants to be able to register puppies must get a schutzhund title on the dog. Huh? Do you really want to see little Yorkies, and docile English Setters attacking the sleeve.


Actually, yeah, I'd like to see that. 

No, I was just talking about GSDs, and I did say it would never happen. I know AKC isn't the same as the SV.


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## selzer

I would not. I would never want to see an English Setter doing bite work, they are not made for that, and it would be a terrible thing to mess with their temperament to that extent.


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## wolfstraum

While they do not do "Champion" titles gained by multiple points as per AKC's structure - they do have shows - and in the SV, dogs MUST do both working and shows to receive breeding privileges. Pink - equivilent to "full" registration - papers are ONLY given to litters where both parents have working titles and koer class...which also requires hip and elbow ratings! You can do a championship in the AKC ring and breed without doing a CDX or Herding title or having OFAs. 

Someone mentioned tests for other breeds - no they don't do schutzhund with every breed - Rotties do I know....but it is not just the SV/GSD that requires both conformation and working certifications....I know some people who moved here 2 years ago from Germany...they have a Viszla...no papers because the breeder had not yet gotten his working (hunt testing) certification on the dam. Sire had it, pups got no papers, and when he did do the certification, he did not bother getting retroactive papers on the litter. This lady wants to breed the Viszla, and can't get AKC papers without German papers and she asked my other friend to breed her to one of her AKC Ch. males (this friend has a very sucessful record in this breed - 3 litters, 7 champions, 2 at National Specialty getting some special awards...not sure what) The lady is in Germany now and trying to get the seller to get the litter registered for her. 

Lee


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## DunRingill

selzer said:


> Let's turn this around, working line people, who goes the extra mile, who puts CH titles on their dogs?


Phyllis Dobbs has been showing her very handsome dog T-Rex in the AKC breed ring. I think he has 9 points now. Great dog, good looking and he's a love. 

SG T-Rex vom Kriegerhaus - German Shepherd Dog


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## wolfstraum

DunRingill said:


> Phyllis Dobbs has been showing her very handsome dog T-Rex in the AKC breed ring. I think he has 9 points now. Great dog, good looking and he's a love.
> 
> SG T-Rex vom Kriegerhaus - German Shepherd Dog



and he has a very nice pedigree....I like it!

Lee


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I would not. I would never want to see an English Setter doing bite work, they are not made for that, and it would be a terrible thing to mess with their temperament to that extent.


I was kidding.  Of course I wouldn't want to see an English setter doing bite work, that's so counter to their natural temperament, I don't want to imagine what someone would have to do to make them bite.

I was just talking about GSDs, not all breeds.


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## cliffson1

@ WhiteGerman Shepherd,
You asked me what kind of accomplishments do I want to see from ASL, since I said I don't believe in titles??
Well how about accomplishments in the things that German Shepherds have a history and legacy of doing. SAR....has no bitework, Guide dog for the blind...has no bitework, advanced obedience(CDX or UD or UDT)...has no bitework....Advanced Herding...Narcotic dogs....Explosive dogs....there are many uses for this breed that don't involve sch titles or bitework. 
The ASL is inordinately maligned as an example of functional working dog, I think the OP is saying hey...give us some examples of AS lines or kennels that have dogs that still serve in functional capacities like providing dogs to the above vocations. Every dog in a litter is not showable....actually probably only about 2 out of a litter of 8 will be showable. So the other six pups can certainly be elgible for the things above, things like missing teeth, missing testicles, coat length, hanging ears, etc do not stop a dog from being functional with accomplishments in the area above.
With people being educated about these dogs functioning in these areas, it will certainly help people have understanding and respect. 
When people inquire of evidence to support opinions, it is an opportunity to educate and dispel unfounded perceptions. If the owners/breeders balk at providing evidence of what they represent....then people, perception, and opinion become suspect. You can't then blame the people, perception, or opinion on bashing. 
People are looking to be educated to validate their changing their views....just like most of you want to see evidence of hip certification to feel good about hips.


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## DunRingill

selzer said:


> And we have something in the Specialty ring anyway, that is NOT noticed by the AKC. At the nationals, they do designate the Grand Victor and the Grand Victrix and that is noted by the AKC. But they also slate some dogs as VA -- kind of like the German ring. I know that OFAs are a port of that, which is good, but I do not know all the other requirements.


I think you're thinking of the Select Excellent title. Select, GV, and GVX are based on the placement at the National and don't have any other requirements. But to go Select Excellent the dog must go Select at the National and have OFA hips and elbows. 

Award of Excellence is given to dogs that go Select and have OFA H&E, have passed a temperament test, and have some kind of performance title. Since there are a limited number of dogs that go select every year there aren't many dogs that earn an AOE.

Dual Award is given to dogs that are Ch and have a performance title. PAM is given to dogs that have performance titles in 3 different area, with 1 of the 3 being the highest level. No conformation title needed. 

Elite Award is given to a dog that doesn't have any disqualifying faults and earns a score of 195+ in obedience at the National. Mike earned an Elite Award in 2006.


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## Guardyan

Interesting to see t-Rex mentioned here . . He was one of the dogs I made a big mental note to find out more about after nationals. Really nice dog!

I am always sad to see the rift between the different types. I wish everyone would use that energy trying to breed better dogs, not trying to tear one another down. On that note, I've seen some nice dogs from DeBrut.


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## cliffson1

Tell us more about Debrut and T-Rex.....I'd like to know about their lines and assets.


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## Guardyan

T-Rex is a working lines male . . . I was very impressed with him at Nationals. He struck me as a dog with balanced proportions, overall firmness, strong head and bone. He was super attentive to his handler and seemed drivey without being hectic.

I've met a few DeBrut's dogs at obedience trials. I'm afraid I don't know pedigrees, but I always inquire with handlers out of curiosity. (We just don't see many GSDs at the trials any more.) The dogs I've met had moderate angulation and confident, stable temperaments. I've seen a few of Lori's dogs trialing at the Utility level. IMHO, you need a good, solid dog for Utility. 

Check out the PAM and ATAA awards and I'm sure you will see several DeBrut dogs listed. I think it's awesome to see shepherds competing in different venues.


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## DunRingill

cliffson1 said:


> Tell us more about Debrut and T-Rex.....I'd like to know about their lines and assets.


The Debrut dogs are ASL, bred by Lori Nickeson. There have only been 3 Ch/OTCh GSDs (I think), all were bred and trained by Lori. 

T-Rex is SG T-Rex vom Kriegerhaus. He's from working lines, Phyllis Dobbs is his breeder and owner. I posted the link to his pedigree in an earlier post. he doesn't have any schutzhund titles yet but I'm sure Phyllis is working on that!


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## cliffson1

I am very aware of Lori Nickeson, she has a first class reputation as a dog trainer and breeder. I will look into the pedigrees as I think they will be insightful of some of the strong work ethic that has carried thru....Thanks,Guardyn and Dunhill!!


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Well how about accomplishments in the things that German Shepherds have a history and legacy of doing. SAR....has no bite work, Guide dog for the blind...has no bite work, advanced obedience(CDX or UD or UDT)...has no bite work....Advanced Herding...Narcotic dogs....Explosive dogs....there are many uses for this breed that don't involve sch titles or bite work.


Cliff, I don't care who does or doesn't do bitework. I don't have a dog in this fight, just trying to learn about and understand the breed better. The only way to learn is to ask questions, try to clarify things and move on.

*So this is what you and Freestep want to see as opposed to sport titles??*

WGS/WSCC CH *U-CD* Ve-Lin's Sabre of Braehead, *UD*, TT, CGC, OP, XP, -The GSD Quarterly ranked Sabre as one of the Top Working GSD's in the country in Spring of 1996. 

AWSA/WGS/WSCC Ch., Braehead's Alexis Special, *CDX*, CAN CD, TT, CGC, HC, XP, OP

A-CH, Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus *UTD*, Can/Am *TDX, BH TR3, FDX*, HIC/d, TT, CGC

AWSA/WSCC Ch, *U-CDX*, Am/Can *OTCH* Braedhead's Memento of Q *UDX*, *VCD2*, Am/Can TD, OA, OAJ,* BH*,* TR1*, FMCH, HIC 

Braehead's Justin Time *VCD1*, TD, CD, NAP, NJP

Braehead's Briar Rose v Eis Haus CKC *TDX*, CKC *UTD*, AKC TD (4 yrs. old)

Brock of Eis Haus CD, *TDX*, Am TD, TT, CGC (Bailey's son)

A-1 ARBA Ch, AWSA/WSCC Ch., Braehead's Boo Boo Bear, TT, TDI, *TDIA*, HC, CGC 

That's just a sampling of the line. The Braehead line has also produced therapy and service dogs as well as SAR and K-9's. (not many K-9's) They've also had some accomplished sport dogs. I see the line as being versatile and balanced. 

Another line I like is Hoofprint in Canada. Older well established line. Some examples of their service dogs: http://www.hoofprint.ws/hpservice_dogs.htm 

Am I on the right track?


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## cliffson1

It took a minute, once we got past the defensiveness, but yes that is part of what I am talking about. Now if we can relate some of these dogs with lines or sires/dams they have come from I think it would help me learn a lot about today's ASL with aptitude for working.(I do apologize for including the bitework aspect in the post to you, as there is another poster who always trots out "bitework" in these discussions,I won't bother to address them lol).
Look, I don't have a dog into this fight either, just thought as adults, here was a nice opportunity for people to give some discussions/evidence of the ability of ASL to work as the reputation for this has diminished so much in latter years. 
Whether you or anyone else wants to believe this, I try to be objective about this breed, and my opinions are always changing or willing to be changed when presnted with evidence for a shift in my thinking. The statements I make about the breed are usually carefully thought out, supported by some credible documentation, or a lot of experience over the years. These thoughts are subject to change as scenarios change, but they don't change because people with the breed on their sleeve say its so, they change because I see evidence to support the change. 
There was a time you saw plenty of ASL in the fields I listed above, excluding sport, because it wasn't in this country but including military/police.
So I was sincere about wanting to hear about the accomplishments of these dogs today, as there are many many many thousands of them in this country so the the info should be readily available to support my lack of seeing or hearing of them. No more no less.
But at this point, I guess I'll get defensive, (I hate being defensive because it means your ability to receive knowledge stops with the defensiveness), like the others, and thank those and yourself for what you posted and continue to remain in the dark about these dogs. Peace!


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Whether you or anyone else wants to believe this, I try to be objective about this breed, and my opinions are always changing or willing to be changed when presnted with evidence for a shift in my thinking.


Same here, and I'm glad some have taken my post in the spirit it was intended--a desire to learn about ASL's and see what they can do. I LOVE to see show dogs with working titles, so THANK YOU to those who are schooling me without getting defensive! Keep 'em coming! And if anyone knows about particular bloodlines that contribute to "working" temperament in the ASL, please continue to share. 

And thanks for the Hoofprints and Braehead sites, examples of WGSD in working venues! Awesome.


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## sagelfn

I guess what I'd like to know besides conformation what are ASL breeders looking for in terms of temperament? Why are they so different from WLs? Or have I just not met a good ASL dog?

I know an ASL breeder here. She has nice looking dogs. They do OB/Rally, agility, show in UKC, but they are not something I'd want. I find that so weird since I love German Shepherds.

I like working lines but there are some breeders producing IMO just as great WGSL dogs that I'd have a hard time passing up. I've never been able to say that about an ASL breeder....to be honest though I've not really looked into the lines. Just have listened to everyone else who says if you want to do A,B,C you shouldn't look at ASL dogs.


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## lonestarag05

Im going to be a first time GSD/ASL owner in less than a week. I started learning about GSD's a year before I met with any breeders or made of decision. 

I did not go out to get an ASL dog or a working line. I really had no opinion either way. All I knew was what I wanted in temperment, looks and how I felt about the breeder. I met with 4 or 5 from both types and felt most comfortable with the breeder I will be bringing a puppy home from next week and I couldnt be happier with my choice.

I find the elitist attitude of many (it seems especially prevalent from the WL owners) to be childish and an overall detriment to the breed. The worst conditions and dogs I met came from a titled, working line breeder. Horrible dogs and horrible owners. Sadly, there are examples from all lines of bad breeding.


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## Freestep

lonestarag05 said:


> I find the elitist attitude of many (it seems especially prevalent from the WL owners) to be childish and an overall detriment to the breed. The worst conditions and dogs I met came from a titled, working line breeder. Horrible dogs and horrible owners. Sadly, there are examples from all lines of bad breeding.


Indeed there are. Unfortunately, as WL get more popular there will be more examples of bad breeding in that area.

I believe the GSD should be a working dog. When there is too much emphasis on looking pretty and not enough on working ability, the breed suffers. I belive form should follow function. Granted, there are WL breeders that don't care what their dog looks like, but I don't mind that as much because police dogs, SAR dogs, etc. don't have to be pretty, the most important thing is that they can do their jobs. But if I were a breeder, I'd want the whole package. Working dogs don't have to look like coyotes--there are lots of V rated working dogs. Show dogs should have the structure and temperament to be able to work, as well. I am seeing that many ASL's can compete in herding, obedience, agility, and do service work, and that is the way it should be IMO. I think any working or sporting breed should still be willing and able to do the work they were originally developed for, no matter how pretty they are. If that's an "elitist" attitude, so be it.

Someday when I get old and frail, I might not want a WL dog. At that point, I probably will not care how hard a dog hits a sleeve. I'd want a GSD with lower drives and a calmer temperament, and at that point I might want to look at an ASL dog--but still, one with soundness in mind and body. Those ASL breeders who are putting working titles on their dogs are the ones I would want to look at.


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## GSD07

lonestarag05 said:


> I will be bringing a puppy home from next week and I couldnt be happier with my choice.


 How do you know if you made the right choice yet? You'll be able to say so when your pup is 3-4 years old, and when you have some points of reference. I would tell this to any new puppy buyer from any lines.


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## wolfstraum

lonestarag05 said:


> Im going to be a first time GSD/ASL owner in less than a week. I started learning about GSD's a year before I met with any breeders or made of decision.
> 
> I did not go out to get an ASL dog or a working line. I really had no opinion either way. All I knew was what I wanted in temperment, looks and how I felt about the breeder. I met with 4 or 5 from both types and felt most comfortable with the breeder I will be bringing a puppy home from next week and I couldnt be happier with my choice.
> 
> I find the elitist attitude of many (it seems especially prevalent from the WL owners) to be childish and an overall detriment to the breed. The worst conditions and dogs I met came from a titled, working line breeder. Horrible dogs and horrible owners. Sadly, there are examples from all lines of bad breeding.


Sadly - yes - there are badly run breeding operations in every type of GSDs - I know of a well know ASL breeder, now has some WLs because the temperment of the ASL was so bad - a direct quote - who keeps at least 12 - maybe as many as 18 dogs in 4x10 runs, with 1 rubber mat, an igloo wiht straw in the winter - the runs have maybe 4 feet under a roof, no sides, open to all weather - and not one of those dogs EVER goes into a house - not ever in their lives....some live in those runs from the day they are born until they die....it is absolutely appalling and makes me want to cry....esp since he got ahold of a dog that I care about and that is how the dog lives now. Spooky female? doesn't care - breeds her anyway because "she moves like the wind" - appalling....

The WL people ARE hard core - I will give you that much - at least the ones who train, title, koer and live with their dogs....because the breed is so diluted and deteriorated from the GERMAN standard (remember the name of the breed, it is not the AS shepherd - it is the German Shepherd)...it was the 2nd most produced purebred dog in the US in either 09 or 10....which means there are probably 15 to 20,000 purebred dogs - mostly from BYB out there reproducing - and there are only a handful of that number trying to maintain the true GERMAN dog....it is frustrating and heart breaking to see poor temperament, schoizd, mutated, oversized giants, etc etc dogs out there...and even more heartbreaking to see the constant posts begging for help to get dogs out of kill shelters because the BYB can give a rat's butt about what happens to that $500 puppy after it leaves him.

So, elitist attitude? no, concerned and disgusted with the human greed that is ruining the breed and costing so many dogs their lives.

Lee


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## Hillary_Plog

lonestarag05 said:


> Im going to be a first time GSD/ASL owner in less than a week. I started learning about GSD's a year before I met with any breeders or made of decision.
> 
> I did not go out to get an ASL dog or a working line. I really had no opinion either way. All I knew was what I wanted in temperment, looks and how I felt about the breeder. I met with 4 or 5 from both types and felt most comfortable with the breeder I will be bringing a puppy home from next week and I couldnt be happier with my choice.
> 
> I find the elitist attitude of many (it seems especially prevalent from the WL owners) to be childish and an overall detriment to the breed. The worst conditions and dogs I met came from a titled, working line breeder. Horrible dogs and horrible owners. Sadly, there are examples from all lines of bad breeding.


It's great that you did your research for a year, but remember that many of the people that have these "elitist" attitudes are people that have been raising, breeding, training, owning, handling GSDs for the better part of their adult lives...10, 20, 30 years. 

And you should know that, there aren't JUST American show lines and/or working lines (you forgot to research several others). There are American show lines, West German Show lines, DDR working lines, German (Belgian and Dutch) working lines, Czech working lines...and then the lines outside of the standard including shilos and white GSDs. 

I find these conversations informative, educational and interesting...elitist attitudes or not, and newbies (such as yourself) that haven't even owned a GSD before should look at these conversations as opportunities to learn about lines they have never had before and lines that they may have/be getting (like yourself), instead of just asserting that everyone who thinks ASLs should be in working venues are elitist. 

You will have your new ASL quite soon, according to your previous posts, and if I were you I would work on understanding why it's sooooo important to buy from a breeder, NO MATTER WHAT LINES, that takes their dogs to more venues than just AKC conformation shows (remember that if you visit a breeder and their dogs "seem" nice, don't growl at you, and are around children doesn't neccessarily make them temperamentally sound/stable...that's why titles and participation in working venues is an important variable).

I WANT to hear about ASL dogs actually participating and being titled in working venues, no matter what, and I think it's important that the "elitist" push this concept or we will continue seeing more and more temperament issues. JMHO


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## Hillary_Plog

GSD07 said:


> How do you know if you made the right choice yet? You'll be able to say so when your pup is 3-4 years old, and when you have some points of reference. I would tell this to any new puppy buyer from any lines.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## gagsd

lonestarag05 said:


> The worst conditions and dogs I met came from a titled, working line breeder. Horrible dogs and horrible owners. Sadly, there are examples from all lines of bad breeding.


There is a breeder in your area well-known for her dogs horrible living conditions.
Just because someone has dogs with titles (from whatever lines) does not make them good breeders or good people. 

For the OT, I would be very interested in more Am line people speaking up about some current dogs that are doing things in working venues.


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## NancyJ

DunRingill said:


> Phyllis Dobbs has been showing her very handsome dog T-Rex in the AKC breed ring. I think he has 9 points now. Great dog, good looking and he's a love.
> 
> SG T-Rex vom Kriegerhaus - German Shepherd Dog


 
So tell us about this dog. A dog doing well in US circles and has very nice working lines. What does "he's a love" mean?

He is a handsome dog to me though I see he is rated SG, not V - but then I know few German workingline dogs actually get a V rating. 

What is it about him that can cross the breed circles and succeed in American and German circles?


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## Samba

Helen Gleason has Navigator. He is out of WGSL Nurmi to ASLs. American bred champion and ScHHIII.

Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs

DeBrut's pedigrees...

2007 OV PAM CH OTCH DeBrut's The Shadow Knows - German Shepherd Dog


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=682732


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## Samba

Rex looks like a nicely built dog. That could allow him to do well in the AKC ring. He is probably doing best in the all-breed venue.

He is probably SG in the German system for reasons other than his conformation.


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## Freestep

Samba said:


> Helen Gleason has Navigator. He is out of WGSL Nurmi to ASLs. American bred champion and ScHHIII.
> 
> Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> DeBrut's pedigrees...
> 
> 2007 OV PAM CH OTCH DeBrut's The Shadow Knows - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> 
> 2003 OVX PAM CH OTCH DeBrut's Moonshadow - German Shepherd Dog


Awesome. Very nice looking dogs, too.


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## BUBBAGSD

*american show line breeders*



Andaka said:


> I have based my breeding program on this dog mixed with Kubistraum's Kane.
> 
> Sundance Kid, better known in the ASL dog show world as Bear, was a remarkable dog. He was a large dog of high drive but not particularly biddable. He lived to be 13, and was awarded Best Of Breed at a specialty show at the age of 11 1/2. My foundation bitch was his 78th champion. He was aso known for producing good hips.
> 
> Kane was a smallish, dark dog with great style. His line is more known for their biddablity. Together they were known as one of the great "clicks" of their time.
> 
> 
> 
> Ch. Andaka's Kahla of Zederland CD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keno was my heart dog -- he did everything I asked of him and then some. Keno was a slow maturing dog physically, so we did performance titles while waiting on him to grow up. He had his CDX (3 forsts and a High in Trial) when he finished his championship, and went on to get his UD (2 firsts and a third), his Open Agility title, and his Herding Started title (first place). Keno was a Kahla son linebred on Bear and Kane.
> 
> Multi Ch. Andaka-Zederland's Keno UD HSAs OA HTD1 HRD1 Can CD


 
we also have butchs sundance kid in a number of our pedigrees with kubistraums oz . with dubruts also in the lines
we have done well in the confirmation rings as wel as performance rings
a number of our dogs are dual tiled with titles at both ends
we have had a few dogs go in the confirmation ring get points and 20 minutes later get a leg on their obedience title
here are few

ch safari cdx tt cgn cgc hic ovc h/e
ch ice cgc rn ovc h/e
ch mister rn cgn hic ovc h/e
ch ptd tini cdx tt cgn cgc hic ovc h/e working on utility
ch ptd honour cd rn tt cgn cgc hic ovc h/e
ch naughty ovc h/e working on performance title
ch brit ovc h/e working on performance title

i would say in the US if you you wanted an asl that would do well in the show ring then go next door and do just as well in the performace ring with great temperments i would look at dubruts and kubistraum.


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## cliffson1

I see that Nocturne Kennels has a Haus Dexel dog....there is a rich history of Haus Dexel dogs going back through Ajax involved in American show, German Show, and top working dogs. Was going to expound on it, but I'll defer to the experts in the American show and German show who can certainly educate others on this.


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## cliffson1

Thanks, BubbaGSD!!!!
Appreciate the info.
Which dogs out of Kane have been succesful in producing good obedience dogs?


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## Andaka

I don't believe that Kubistraum has a website, but Verna and her sister Ginny have been very successful in both the breed ring and performance venues. Ginny has trained many of the dogs in herding and obedience.

Kubistraum's Forever Amber

Kubistraum's Enchanted Eve

Kubistraum's Taffeta


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## BUBBAGSD

Andaka said:


> I don't believe that Kubistraum has a website, but Verna and her sister Ginny have been very successful in both the breed ring and performance venues. Ginny has trained many of the dogs in herding and obedience.
> 
> Kubistraum's Forever Amber
> 
> Kubistraum's Enchanted Eve
> 
> Kubistraum's Taffeta


 
IHi Cliffson

i dont think verna has a website also , but andaka is correct that verna and her sister do alot of work outside the show ring herding and performance and a lot of her puppy buyers also do alot of performance work with her dogs. my wife is the pedigree person in the house so i cant speak to kanes offspring . but the girl we had from verna was from oz s line


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## Ruthie

Those who are so offended when people say negative things about ASL, I think you are taking things too personally. I think very few would argue that YOUR particular dog is valuable or would insult YOUR dog. Most of what I read on hear "bashing" ASL is saying that they do not represent the breed standard and what the breed should be. That is not saying that no one should love their ASL. 

I love all my dogs that I have owned, but that doesn't mean that they are all perfect examples of GSDs that should be bred. Do I get offended when people say GSDs should not be oversize? NO Do I get offended when people say that silver is not a correct color? NO Do I get upset when people say that some working line dogs have too low of a threshold for prey? NO

I actually agree. That doesn't take value away from my beloved dogs. They are all wonderful for who they are in spite of the fact that some have had flaws that make them not breed worthy or perfect representatives of the breed.



selzer said:


> A police dog doesn't have to be pretty, it has to be funcitonal.
> A show dog does not have to be a police dog, it has to be functional, and pretty.


I really disagree with the spirit of both of these statements. A GSD has to be a GSD regardless of what lines it is. It needs to have both correct structure and temperament.

Freestep, this is a very interesting topic. Thanks. I would love to learn more about the positive aspects of the ASL.


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## Xeph

I have to say that my little bitch actually exceeded my expectations in her work ethic. She is a Dallas grand daughter. Bottom half of her pedigree is all west coast. Very flashy in the heel, loves to work, EXCELLENT on sheep. Very biddable, very thoughtful. Can be a little overzealous trying to grip, but that has lessened significantly with maturity and understanding of what the job is.

She has GREAT drive for toys and food, will hunt for a missing object until she drops dead or I tell her to quit it. She is extremely smart and picks up on new teachings quickly. She has actually generalized retrieves, and if I tell her to pick something up, she will. Doesn't matter what it is.

She will carry TV remotes, coasters, her own leash, her collar, blankets, towels....she's actually very useful around the house.

I cannot be particularly hard on her, as it will "hurt her feelings". Will she continue to work? Yes. But she'll appear much more subdued. That said, her attitude does come back up, but it takes longer than I would like.

One thing we're working on is maintaining her enthusiasm and focus away from home, but that's more a me thing than a her thing.


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## carmspack

I have had a lot of exposure to american show lines over the years . I have handled for other people and placed well so not too awful at doing that. I have handled dogs that became selects , I did the grunt work getting them out to matches for ring experience -- putting them in to local smaller venues, the all breed ring, then handing them over to pros for the "big" shows -- the speciality shows . 
I had the pleasure of sitting beside Anne Mesdag a well respected breeder and judge and got lots of inside insights. Not much different than racing horse barns. She pointed out individual animals going around the ring and asked me to critique them and to spot certain "things". 
Gord Garrett , Canadian chronicler of GSD , a very great lover of the breed , and I would have many a discussion , a good supporter of my efforts . The breed has evolved -- lost a lot from what the american dogs were like in the 60's and 70's.
I have produced best in breed , best in show, high in trials , sentry challenge award, benjamin schultz award , multiple family connected Dog World Award recipients for obedience , several kennels have used my stock for improvement of front assembly - something I am very fussy on , and for improvement of temperment.
I have had ROM's - my breedings -- , and brother "Most" produced many a working dog -- . 
My female produced a Select Canadian and American Champion Winning Ways Chimo , a dog that Fred Lanting made a point of telling me how great the dog was -- he said he went back to a by gone era of the late 60's when you had the likes of Yoncalla's Mike .. temperament and front ---SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog

I have not abandoned the maternal line going through Ambergris -- who was a TDX , UD , and producer of many service dogs -- she still runs through my working dogs -- but I absolutely could not continue with using show lines and get the same results.

I ran through an apprentice program to become an obedience judge -- didn't want the lifestyle with Saturday in some clammy ice rink --- instead my Saturdays now are in a hot private school gymnasium -- how ironic is that . At least I go home after the market closes .

Over the years I saw the dogs become more tentative , more sensitive, less drive , just less . Not as confused or edgy as some of the german show lines, so in some respects the american version is a better pet , couch potato , because the drives aren't in conflict , they just are not there.

There are some good dogs that come about every once in a while . But you can not rely on the valiant efforts of a handful of people trying their best -- . Unfortunately being one of the instigators asking for a temperament test at the nationals , I have seen too many trials with terrible temperament emerging with minimal pressure or threat -- 

In order for any group to succeed every member within that group has to make the effort. 
A good litter should not have one or two capable of work 2 out of 8 , it should be 6 out of 8 .

Dogs that brought work into the american dogs were Paladen, Joe Bihari's Biharis Wonder , Harrigan, Merkels Quaestor sire of GV Merkels Vendetta - a gorgeous gorgeous female SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog Yoncalla's Mike , Judd .

Classy lady Wynnifred Strickland (Gibson?) had excellent dogs , but needed to merge with German lines to maintain what she had .

If any one wants to study the evolution of the dogs which became known as "American Show lines" I highly recommend Sue Barwig's book , an encylopedic tome simply The German Shepherd Book.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

I should have mentioned that I have american published German Shepherd Dog review from 1939 vol 16 where you have the likes of Cosalta kennels -- (good) 1939 Grand Victor Hugo of Cosalta , and Odin Busecker Schlosss standing at Villa Marina kennels in Santa Monica , first adverts for kibble KFS Cero-Meato -- "a wonderful dry kibbled food made of wheat flour, bone meal, corn meal , soya bean meal, alfalfa meal, meat scraps , molasses , salt , cod liver oil, yeast and wheat germ) - oh yeah ! 
another kennel Giralda Farms even an article which I HAVE to read Belgium should be Given the credit of the origin of the Alsation, not Germany. Please remember this is 1939 -- and much anti german sentiment existed .. even to using Alsation , a section on Tracking in the Dark, an exercise that I think is excellent -- 
I have access to the entire collection which if I outlast the present owner , will be mine . 
In my personal library I have every issue of German Shepherd dog review going back to the 70's . 
The dogs have changed entirely -- barely recognizable to today's dog , as dramatic a change as the German show lines from the dogs they came from , which were the same as the american show lines -- 

Only the DDR and some Czech dogs have held there ground in a basic conformation it seems.

I don't mean disrespect when not capitalizing the A in american , because when I use that term I don't mean the great country of USA but "american" as in north american .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## DunRingill

jocoyn said:


> So tell us about this dog. A dog doing well in US circles and has very nice working lines. What does "he's a love" mean?


If he knows you and likes you, he lets you know it. Last year at the GSDCA National in Utah, a group of us took over a sitting area upstairs in our motel and T-Rex was part of the group. He was not the least bit aggressive with other dogs (dog or bitch), and as someone who owns an extremely dog aggressive GSD I appreciate that quality! He was also very friendly with everyone in our group, and if you wanted a dog to hug he was more than happy to oblige. But there's nothing wimpy about him.

He sired a litter a few months ago and if I didn't have Bunny, I would have taken one of these babies.
Wild Laelia von Sontausen - German Shepherd Dog




> He is a handsome dog to me though I see he is rated SG, not V - but then I know few German workingline dogs actually get a V rating.


Don't read too much into the rating...he doesn't have any schh titles yet so can't get a V rating until he does.




> What is it about him that can cross the breed circles and succeed in American and German circles?


I hope it just means that a good judge will find a good dog, no matter what the bloodlines.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Dogs that brought work into the american dogs were Paladen, Joe Bihari's Biharis Wonder , Harrigan, Merkels Quaestor sire of GV Merkels Vendetta - a gorgeous gorgeous female SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog Yoncalla's Mike , Judd .


That's exactly the info I am looking for, thank you. It is good to hear from someone who knows the bloodlines of both American and German dogs, and the type they produce.


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## ShepLady11

My first was a little 3/4 american, 1/4 german girl. She was one of the smartest, most intelligent and loyal companions I have ever had. I just put her to rest May 19th. I love her so much (not loved, LOVE) and think about her every day.

As far as working her, she comes from a ton of S&R dogs, both ground and Air, some working right in my area. 

I believe, any line has the capability, it just depends on how 'watered down' they are, on either side. It's all in the breeding. GSD is a GSD!

I feel your pain, Diane


Sharon
Entwerfer Haus GSDs
Dedicated Breeder
100% German, Working Lines
_Max von Stephanitz's last words to his good friend Muller on his deathbed... _
"Take this trouble for me: make sure my German Shepherd Dog remains a WORKING dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim".


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## Samba

I really don't know the American lines very well. I haven't investigated them for where working ability might lie. I don't know where to go for that. To me, they generally are pretty changed from their beginnings. As Carmen mentioned, she does not know of anywhere in the lines to go maintain or improve working abilities. My sense of it is the same.

There are dogs with more working qualities than others, but it is not strong or pervasive in them. My goodness, I hope no one is offended at this observation? Most of my show friends like the difference in their dogs from the one's bred for strong service abilities. 

I recently saw a first generation cross WGSL to ASLs. Pretty bitch who is such a mover that she can fininsh in the specialty ring, I imagine. She is very solid, has bright temperement, demonstrates some drive, etc. The more I am out there, the more of these crosses I see. My sense is that in the ASLs we are about out of places to go to improve temperament. I predict we will have even more outcrossing. It is not so much because there is a desire for a more German type dog as there is a need to improve temperament things. 

Of course, there are breeders in all lines who are not so great at it. There are those who tend to one imbalance or another. Not a good thing. I think in the ASLs we have generally tended to movement at the scacrifice of other qualities. It involves a large part of the fancy, so it is more than the occassional breeder.

I have had good luck from breeders whose dogs were intentionally bred for some type of real world service. This seems to have tended to keep the extremes out to a large degree.

Recently heard a specialty handler mention a breeding that contained East and some West Working lines. Some ASL breeders may get improvement through these lines also.

Will they work toward a changing type or just use the genetics to bolster the extreme mover goal?


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## Samba

My show dogs go back to Winning Ways Chimo who was out of a female of Carmen's. 

Most of the dogs mentioned as bringing working character are far back in pedigrees now.


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## wolfstraum

Samba said:


> I really don't know the American lines very well. I haven't investigated them for where working ability might lie. I don't know where to go for that. To me, they generally are pretty changed from their beginnings. As Carmen mentioned, she does not know of anywhere in the lines to go maintain or improve working abilities. My sense of it is the same.
> 
> There are dogs with more working qualities than others, but it is not strong or pervasive in them. My goodness, I hope no one is offended at this observation? Most of my show friends like the difference in their dogs from the one's bred for strong service abilities.
> 
> I recently saw a first generation cross WGSL to ASLs. Pretty bitch who is such a mover that she can fininsh in the specialty ring, I imagine. She is very solid, has bright temperement, demonstrates some drive, etc. The more I am out there, the more of these crosses I see. My sense is that in the ASLs we are about out of places to go to improve temperament. I predict we will have even more outcrossing. It is not so much because there is a desire for a more German type dog as there is a need to improve temperament things.
> 
> Of course, there are breeders in all lines who are not so great at it. There are those who tend to one imbalance or another. Not a good thing. I think in the ASLs we have generally tended to movement at the scacrifice of other qualities. It involves a large part of the fancy, so it is more than the occassional breeder.
> 
> I have had good luck from breeders whose dogs were intentionally bred for some type of real world service. This seems to have tended to keep the extremes out to a large degree.
> 
> Recently heard a specialty handler mention a breeding that contained East and some West Working lines. Some ASL breeders may get improvement through these lines also.
> 
> Will they work toward a changing type or just use the genetics to bolster the extreme mover goal?



Thank you for stating the objective truth that too many on your "side" refuse to see or acknowledge....

Lee


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## carmspack

wow I had no idea -- then go back into Lalique's background (which may not be on the pedigree data base ) and you would see it going back to my foundation female which has much Marko Cellerland through his World Sieger son Eros Hambachtal (Kai Silberbrand and gorgeous balanced Marko Abtei-Eck ) . Departure from main thread -- I include Marko's and Eros's pdbase information so you can see what in my eye is an ideal well balanced structure V Marko vom Abtei-Eck - German Shepherd Dog . VA3 Eros vom Hambachtal - German Shepherd Dog
This is the structure which my current dogs still represent and one I strive for . It is my opinion that many of the good DDR dogs and some many of the Czech/Slovak dogs still exhibit this type and balance.
Back to pedigrees.-- also , ms Samba , the pedigree which Chimo's dam line goes back to has a saturation of Vello Sieben Faulen and Betty Eningsfeld through their progeny Bernd, Bodo, Dolf , Gin Lierberg . Built to be solid and work loving.

One of my lines from back then was represented by Carmspack Most and his sister Octavia -- both champions , all majors , major points from pup class (5 pts as Jr pup) and Most "Tom" went on to produce many service dogs including one RCMP male . His sire was a son of Sel Ch Wyntheas Gallant Jason UD TDX romc, son of Wynthea's Jasper UD - littermate to GV Tillie UDT , son of Sel Ch Dot Walls Vance and Bess of Wynthea . When you look at Vance you can see that he is of recent imported German schutzhund stock SEL CH Dot-Wall's Vance - German Shepherd Dog -- got to comment on his excellent shoulder and front !!! far reaching -- so lacking in modern GSL which lift and are restricted. In this generation we have Vance, and Bess of Wynthea , and Harrigan , and Kovaya's Jill who is Yoncalla's Mike .
in the same generation Ajax del Alta Quercia V31 Ajax dell' Alta Quercia - German Shepherd Dog

So Most was a working producing champion at a young age , and his sister Carmspack Octavia champion (all majors at a young age Best of Breed 6 pointer) became a recognized ROMC , and her progeny was used by many other ASL breeders . 
My last breeding to Octavia was to Putz Weyerberg the last son of Dex who was from the last breeding to Enno Antrefftal the bitches line carrying Marko Cellerland . 
I let this branch on my pedigree tree whither away , using a prime female line and directing it into DDR , first with Grando v Mecklenburger Buffel which produced Purina Hall of Fame award winning dog dual certified police dog Keno , who with his half brother (same dam different sire) Tell opened the k9 department of Toronto.

Would I go back and recapture those other lines --- NO -- because in the interim the intentions and purposes have not been upheld . It matters very much .

I let them go because there was not an interest in the forward movement , or evolution of the ASL to address working quality or temperament. Being a source of amusement becomes tiresome. I was told by a very well known breeder and handler that "I too would have to compromise if I wanted to be successful" . No. Not interested thank you . 

ShepLady11 I sure would like to know the pedigree of your dog and which combinations are used in SAR . Could you explain your comment about ground (given) and AIR? 
You said any line has the capability then modify that with "depends on how watered down" which blasts away the potential of "any line" unless you want to spend and waste a lot of time panning for gold in the wrong spot . GSD is GSD you say. I disagree totally . Part of the difficulty is that there are so many "watered down" segments of the breed that GSD does not stand for ONE thing anymore -- it comes down to it depends -- depends on priority .

If I were an end user in need of a dog for a specific working function the very last place I would start my search is with breeders of ASL -- working is just not a priority . Not only does the individual breeder need to address working but the entire ASL fanciers , as a united corp, need to address working temperament and structure and drives . Each and every generation needs to be improved and maintained . This is frustrating for those breeders which have made the effort and do have decent working dogs as there will be a bias that they will have to break.

As to doing research where working may come from in the ASL , having good foundation going back to the -60's and mid 70's does not have much meaning or influence unless those standards and expectations have been upheld with every successive generation right up to 2011. It is the accumulative effects of selection which have the greatest effect on future progeny . 

If I were maintaining a modern ASL version of the "gsd" I would frequent All Breed show , and Obedience trials -- . As a competitor and later as a judge-in-training I was very disappointed with many of the lack lustre sour , tip toeing tentative attitude to the gsd being presented . No zip or vigour or "look of eagles" .

On the other hand I don't see what is to be gained by mixing ASL with GSL -- you are bound to get some sharpness -- . Experiments were done with early DDR dogs with ASL -- and that did not work out -- . 

this was written in bits and pieces over the days so if it has the feeling of a quilt patchwork you know why

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba

My girls go to this Chimo breeding:

CH (US & CAN) Mari-Fiori's Bold Ruler Judeen - German Shepherd Dog

The dam goes to old Caralon lines that Cliff mentioned. 

There are sometimes traits in these dogs that remind me of my working bred dogs. Recently placed a dog from these lines on a farm. He was pleasantly hard and resilient with drive to work livestock as well as good kid sitting skills. 
For sure, some in the lines are better than others. 

So there are a few people breeding ASLs for more drive and working character.
They are the exception though. I would have hoped the ASLs would have maintained dogs that could easily UD and/or OTCH title. These activities are not that extreme as far as working abilities. I know a Pug who is about to OTCH. Maybe many of the dogs do still have this ability in many of them but the fanciers aren't interested?


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## Andaka

An OTCH is hard work, and not that interesting. Since my desires for my dogs varied, and I often had more than one dog to train at a time, I was happy with the UD, and decided then that it would be a long time before I trained another UD dog. I am planning on Jag to be that dog.


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## Freestep

You know, one thing I am enjoying learning about ASL's is that they come in a beautiful array of colors. I'm seeing lots of bi and black. Seems the GSL's only come in one color: black and red. They look so cookie-cutter to me.


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## carmspack

Samba , "Bold Ruler"s Caralon dogs go back to Yoncallas Mike and his brother Wilhelm Winterzeit , plus many of the dogs from Hessian kennels -- exactly where my Ambergris OTCH UD went back to .
That was a treat to see .


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## marshies

Freestep said:


> You know, one thing I am enjoying learning about ASL's is that they come in a beautiful array of colors. I'm seeing lots of bi and black. Seems the GSL's only come in one color: black and red. They look so cookie-cutter to me.


I love the ASL colors. I grew up with the tan and black GSD, and cannot get over that look.

On a completely unrelated topic, I sometimes feel judged when I talk to breeders and board members about my color preference. I know temperament and the whole dog is more important than the colors, but I feel that I'm choosing a companion for the next 10 years, my preference matters!


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## Freestep

marshies said:


> On a completely unrelated topic, I sometimes feel judged when I talk to breeders and board members about my color preference. I know temperament and the whole dog is more important than the colors, but I feel that I'm choosing a companion for the next 10 years, my preference matters!


I know how you feel. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a dog that pleases your eye! There are sure to be pups that have the health, temperament, and everything else you want, that just happen to be the color you like.


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## carmspack

The ultimate source for German Shepherd Dog news

have a look at Bihari's REX the Wonder Dog --- 

Bihari's son was a handler back in the late 70's early 80's . They had good "dog sense" . 

Ernie Loeb - great influential force for GSD in America.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jessiewessie99

I like ASL GSDs. Daphne has beautiful representations of them.


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## selzer

No matter what we do, we have to say nasty things about different lines. I am hearing this cookie cutter comment several times in the last few weeks. Can you not see that that is a dig to the people who have and love the German Showline dogs might find that insulting. Why? What compels us to chronically say negative things about the various lines.


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## Andaka

Thanks, Jessie. I think so too.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> No matter what we do, we have to say nasty things about different lines. I am hearing this cookie cutter comment several times in the last few weeks. Can you not see that that is a dig to the people who have and love the German Showline dogs might find that insulting. Why? What compels us to chronically say negative things about the various lines.


It's just a personal opinion, not a dig. When I see a sea of black and red dogs that all look the same, it just looks...boring to me. That's not a dig on show lines themselves, it's just the way it looks to my eye, it's not meant to be an insult. Others may find the consistent type pleasing. 

I just wonder why we don't see other colors?


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## Samba

Nice dog, that Rex.

I don't get upset when people talk about the things are generally observable in many ASLs. I don't get upset when people note the type and color preference in the WGSLs is endemic. I don't get upset when people point out the influence of sport in many working line breedings. There are some things that are just obvious to me.

Really, I welcome criticism and observations. If we can't talk about what is and why it is, and the implications for the dogs....where are we?


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## Andaka

Samba said:


> Nice dog, that Rex.
> 
> I don't get upset when people talk about the things are generally observable in many ASLs. I don't get upset when people note the type and color preference in the WGSLs is endemic. I don't get upset when people point out the influence of sport in many working line breedings. There are some things that are just obvious to me.
> 
> Really, I welcome criticism and observations. If we can't talk about what is and why it is, and the implications for the dogs....where are we?


Exactly!!!:thumbup:


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## Jack's Dad

I kind of of understand what selzer is saying. I prefer blacks, sables, bi-color but fortunately GSD's come in many packages. I don't exactly understand cookie cutter. Standard Poodles are mostly all black or white but if I see a black lab or a white poodle I have never thought of them as a sea of black labs, or white poodles. I think it could be taken negatively if you keep hearing it,


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## trudy

I personally see nothing wrong with adding in German lines to American, maybe that is why mine are so solid and stable tempered, with lots of drive, yet totally livable. Mine have GErman show lines back several generations on both sides, and are beautiful!!! I believe ALL lines could use some thing from the other lines, and I know working line people are thinking their dogs are perfect, but they are not, there is no such thing as perfect and lots of WL could use a bit of length and angles. This is to be a dog longer than tall, not square like a Mal. They should have enough rear to propel them into a trot they can maintain all day, they need some balanced fronts. And I AM NOT asking everyone to quickly send links or pics. They can certainly get some of that from some of their lines but they also need genetic diversity. GSL could sure use some help in the spine and rear, and perhaps in some drive from the WL. And we can all agree ASL could use tons of things from the other 2, but we can still love our dogs, whichever we have and instead of picking apart which causes us to close ranks and get defensive, how about sharing the great combinations, the best of all worlds. Everyone look for the best in someone else's dog and try helpful suggestions.


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## Samba

I don't recall anyone saying something about someone's personal dog. That could be taken personally. But, often people personlize non-personal discussions. 

I have some of all. I am happy to have working temperament and ability evaluated in my showline dogs. I bet I wouldn't take it personally and would see what is revealed. It is what it is. I have never seen any use at all for denial when it comes to our dogs. I am happy to have someone evaluate my working line dog for needed improvement also. I don't take it personally even when it is my own.


Lines, schmines, it reality we are talking dogs.


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## NancyJ

Samba said:


> I don't recall anyone saying something about someone's personal dog. That could be taken personally. But, often people personlize non-personal discussions.
> 
> I have some of all. I am happy to have working temperament and ability evaluated in my showline dogs. I bet I wouldn't take it personally and would see what is revealed. It is what it is. I have never seen any use at all for denial when it comes to our dogs. I am happy to have someone evaluate my working line dog for needed improvement also. I don't take it personally even when it is my own.
> 
> 
> Lines, schmines, it reality we are talking dogs.


:thumbup::snowmen: 

Ok ok had to put the snowmen there who the heck is the keeper of the emoticons?


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## wolfstraum

trudy said:


> SNIP!!! I believe ALL lines could use some thing from the other lines, and I know working line people are thinking their dogs are perfect, but they are not, there is no such thing as perfect and lots of WL could use a bit of length and angles. This is to be a dog longer than tall, not square like a Mal. They should have enough rear to propel them into a trot they can maintain all day, they need some balance SNIP.


Several weeks ago, I attended a show and koer, judged by Herr Wilfred Scheld, Head Herding Judge of the SV, who has judged many Sieger shows HGH conformation classes.

Herr Scheld gave a presentation on herding, but touched on peripherial issues in the breed as well. He had a power point presentation, and showed many different herding breeds. He commented on the split in the breed, and the ASL. He explained the pitfalls in both the breeding of SL and WL - not just in this presentation, but during the koer process as well.

The most important thing IMO that he presented was while showing the more recent National HGH champions. One, dark sable female WL, had the common WL straighter shoulder, flatter croup and wither ... a nod toward me, as this female resembled the dog I had in the working class the day before and he acknowledged that resemblence. This dog, lacking show type angulation, actually was a 3 time National Herding Champion in Germany. 

The single most enlightening statement he made was regarding this dogs angulation. She COULD trot all day. She DID trot all day. She was a working farm sheep dog (2500 +/- sheep in their flock). There was nothing wrong with her structure....it was not FASHIONABLE - but it was totally FUNCTIONAL. There is nothing wrong wtih less angulation! The whole idea that more angulation makes a sounder dog is false. It may make a more (to some) appealing picture while moving, but the angulation is not necessary to enable the dog to work all day. This is not just my opinion, but that of the SVs Chief Herding Judge, a (now retired) working shepherd who had nearly 3000 sheep in his flock, who was Alfred Hahns nephew and put a Sch3 on Greif Lanhtal as a young man. 

The whole idea that angulation and show movement is superior is a falsehood. It is nothing more than fashion, just like the idea that black and red the only color for the show ring.

Lee


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## Freestep

wolfstraum said:


> The single most enlightening statement he made was regarding this dogs angulation. She COULD trot all day. She DID trot all day. She was a working farm sheep dog (2500 +/- sheep in their flock). There was nothing wrong with her structure....it was not FASHIONABLE - but it was totally FUNCTIONAL. There is nothing wrong wtih less angulation! The whole idea that more angulation makes a sounder dog is false. It may make a more (to some) appealing picture while moving, but the angulation is not necessary to enable the dog to work all day.


Thank you, that is very interesting. I myself always wondered why such angulation is "necessary" for the GSD, when most actual working dogs don't have the extreme angulation of the show dog.


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## selzer

Hunter Jack said:


> I kind of of understand what selzer is saying. I prefer blacks, sables, bi-color but fortunately GSD's come in many packages. I don't exactly understand cookie cutter. Standard Poodles are mostly all black or white but if I see a black lab or a white poodle I have never thought of them as a sea of black labs, or white poodles. I think it could be taken negatively if you keep hearing it,


Thank you. This exactly. 

There are really bad black and red dogs and really good ones. They are not cookie cut at all. From across a room I saw a picture of Xara and knew, wow that is a great bitch. I see others -- eh, she's ok. There is a stamp of quality on dogs, color is irrelevant. Lumping all the black and red dogs together and saying -- cookie cutter.


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## Andaka

Freestep said:


> Thank you, that is very interesting. I myself always wondered why such angulation is "necessary" for the GSD, when most actual working dogs don't have the extreme angulation of the show dog.


What is most important to allowing a dog to trot all day is balance and mderation. Not angulation or the lack there of.


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## Jessiewessie99

Are there Long Coated ASL GSDs? I am wondering because there is someone around the block from me who has a male GSD that looks to be from American Showlines.

Just curious if they come like that.


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## selzer

Yep, they come with coats. It is a fault, but not a disqualifying fault.

I asked a while back, but I do not remember the answer, but if you read the books, most of them have an excerpt from the Captain's book, about the proper angulation and how that translates to the proper stride. 

The proper stride will cause the dog to be able to trot all day long after and around the sheep. Too much angulation will shorten the stride and cause the dog to tire too quickly. Too little angulation will cause the same problem in reverse, so in both cases the dog does not have as much energy as if they were properly angulated. 

I do not know how much science the captain put into finding the perfect angulation, but it is still in the books. Some of the dogs have much more angulation, and others have less. A well balanced dog fore and aft, is what I would hope we are striving toward. 

But my question is, the type of work sheps do today, not so much in the field with sheep, but more likely in a squad car or in a field searching, but for the sport dogs, the schutzhund dogs, where so much emphasis is on the bite work part, is the ideal structure for a dog to perform bite work different than a dog who has to perform actual herding for long hours? 

For German Show line dogs and I am guessing working line as well, the have an AD or a test for endurance where they must trot/run I think 12 miles while someone rides a bicycle. I know I could get 12 miles on a bike in half an hour (there -- takes longer on the way back). I am guessing they do this within an hour, hour and a half, still it is an endurance test.


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## carmspack

but we can still love our dogs, whichever we have and instead of picking apart which causes us to close ranks and get defensive, how about sharing the great combinations, the best of all worlds. Everyone look for the best in someone else's dog and try helpful suggestions


xxxxx who ever suggested that you not love your dog? This thread started by "Freestep" specifically asked for bloodlines and breeders of ASL that produced healthy , sound dogs of working temperament, even asking if there were any participating in schutzhund . 
Only by examining the results of any breeding formula will you get great combinations and best of all worlds . 
So what and who has not been helpful.

I know one thing (or two or three) having produced Best of Breed GSD against stiff competition , that has been used by specialists conformation breeders in ASL for their breeding program, not just the ones I mentioned in this thread.

The thing I know for sure is that I can summon a top winning ASL show conformation dog from my "working line" dogs much much much faster than I can summon a top working temperament from the ASL .

Carmspack Simon - German Shepherd Dog

young and rangy -- he would have been the type , I could pull it from this dog easily -- yet he was evaluated and accepted twice for service - and has been producing service dogs with strong work ethic .

here is his brother Chunko Sch H 3 , regionals , decoys choice , Carmspack Chunko - German Shepherd Dog

There sire and his son are working police dogs -- Rampa is a Sch H 3 high scoring dog remarked on by the likes of Gunther Diegel as "excellent dog" 

Genetic diversity does not depend upon whether a dog comes from ASL or GSL or WGWL as all of these basically come from 4 foundational lines. It is the combination and concentration of how those lines are used that makes a difference. 
When you go back into the earliest days of ASL -- even evident in the 60's when most dogs were still second or third generation away from German import you can see which founding lines were dominant . The ASL and the GSL are basically evolved from the same founding sire lines, and those lines had some sharpness and lower thresholds so you have to know what you are putting in to the mix. 
The "working lines" as they are evolving , have the other two family lines to balance things out.



Carmen


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## cliffson1

Lee; that German Herding judge must have read one of my posts on this forum years back....lol....Of course when I said the same thing, people said I was bashing the showlines, and one indignant poster questioned the reliability of my statements and felt I was bashing. Now a real Shepherd judge, with real sheep, and 250 sheep not three, says essentially the same thing. Is he bashing too? When will people take their heads out of the sand and emotions off the sleeve. When real experts in subject matter try to educate, like Herr Scheld, we do well to alter our thinking to benefit from his expertise and knowledge. That's how you become credible in the breed, IMO.


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## wolfstraum

selzer said:


> The proper stride will cause the dog to be able to trot all day long after and around the sheep. Too much angulation will shorten the stride and cause the dog to tire too quickly. Too little angulation will cause the same problem in reverse, so in both cases the dog does not have as much energy as if they were properly angulated.
> 
> I do not know how much science the captain put into finding the perfect angulation, but it is still in the books. Some of the dogs have much more angulation, and others have less. A well balanced dog fore and aft, is what I would hope we are striving toward.



Considering that Herr Scheld ran dogs on sheep for most of his life, and is the Chief Herding Judge of the SV, has judged the HGH class at the Sieger Show and the working championship - I tend to believe what he says - that the current desired levels of angulation and movement are FASHION - just like the red color over the tan....

He specifically stated that the less angulated working dog is still totally able to "trot effortlessly all day" with the sheep. Anyone with horses and has a dog which goes out riding with them can also tell you that the straighter WL dog has no problem trotting along with the rider for hours as well. So the balanced dog is there whether the angulation results in that fancy mover or not.

Lee


----------



## cliffson1

The other element in this trotting all day debate that many won't discuss(usually because they are non experienced experts), is that in order to trot all day, far more important that fore and aft being right to the Nth degree, is the dog's mental constitution to TROT all day in all kinds of weather,(Hot, Cold, Storms,Windy,etc). Many is the dog that shepherds have to wash out because they don't have the drive and stamina and mental toughness to stay on the grind for all day. This goes hand in hand with the physical structure and real herding people know this. Armchair herders either don't place as much emphasis on this or just don't know. But you need both components!


----------



## LaRen616

Hillary_Plog said:


> It's great that you did your research for a year, but remember that many of the people that have these "elitist" attitudes are people that have been raising, breeding, training, owning, handling GSDs for the better part of their adult lives...10, 20, 30 years.
> 
> And you should know that, there aren't JUST American show lines and/or working lines (you forgot to research several others). There are American show lines, West German Show lines, DDR working lines, German (Belgian and Dutch) working lines, Czech working lines...and then the lines outside of the standard including shilos and white GSDs.
> 
> I find these conversations informative, educational and interesting...elitist attitudes or not, and newbies (such as yourself) that haven't even owned a GSD before should look at these conversations as opportunities to learn about lines they have never had before and lines that they may have/be getting (like yourself), instead of just asserting that everyone who thinks ASLs should be in working venues are elitist.
> 
> You will have your new ASL quite soon, according to your previous posts, and if I were you I would work on understanding why it's sooooo important to buy from a breeder, NO MATTER WHAT LINES, that takes their dogs to more venues than just AKC conformation shows (remember that if you visit a breeder and their dogs "seem" nice, don't growl at you, and are around children doesn't neccessarily make them temperamentally sound/stable...that's why titles and participation in working venues is an important variable).
> 
> I WANT to hear about ASL dogs actually participating and being titled in working venues, no matter what, and I think it's important that the "elitist" push this concept or we will continue seeing more and more temperament issues. JMHO


:thumbup:


----------



## LaRen616

My boy is American lines/West German showlines and I LOVE him. :wub:

Next year I am getting a Czech puppy.

Why do we have to choose sides? Why cant we have a Showline GSD and a Working Line GSD? What's wrong with having both?


----------



## cliffson1

Why have sides or lines??? Why can't we have good German Shepherds of all colors and types that win in the showring and working fields.....that's the way it started out....


----------



## Freestep

selzer said:


> There is a stamp of quality on dogs, color is irrelevant.


If color is irrelevant, why do handlers ubiquitously choose to breed and show black and red dogs, to the exclusion of other colors?


----------



## Freestep

LaRen616 said:


> Why do we have to choose sides? Why cant we have a Showline GSD and a Working Line GSD? What's wrong with having both?


Absolutely nothing, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see this as a "taking sides" issue, I see it as a German Shepherd Dog issue. I personally don't like the fact that there is a split (or rather, several splits) in the breed. That is not what Max wanted. He did not want sport to become a goal in and of itself (look, here I'm taking a "dig" on working lines!), he did not want GSDs to become placid, pretty show dogs, we wanted the GSD to remain a WORKING dog. Show lines, working lines, American lines, they should all represent a well-rounded animal with the ability and temperament to work and the conformation to do it. This was Max's opinion and I happen to share it. My hat is off to any breeder who goes the extra mile to put working titles on their show dogs, and show titles on their working dogs. 

I'm not saying every single dog needs to be out there herding sheep, biting sleeves, or finding lost people--in every litter there are "pet" dogs, I have two of them myself. I'm simply saying that in my opinion, it's in the breed's best interest to be open to "crossing the streams" and bringing work into the American lines, bringing conformation into Malinois-looking working lines, and shooting for the "whole" GSD.

Now before anyone gets their hackles up and thinks I am saying "nasty" things about any particular dogs or "insulting" or taking a "dig" at anyone's personal dogs, please remember that I am a nobody in the GSD world. I don't breed, I don't show, and I don't really compete, so in reality my opinion doesn't mean squat. I am a longtime owner and lover of GSDs, have owned and loved dogs of different bloodlines... My first purebred GSD was a show/working cross, my second was a mix of WGSL, DDR, Dutch, and old American bloodlines (from a breeder you could call a BYB), My third was Czech/WGWL, my fourth and fifth are WL. I've titled in AKC obedience and trained in SchH but never titled there. All my dogs have been spayed/neutered. 

So please, there is no need for defensiveness. Like the little lap dog yapping at the big dogs, I'm no threat.


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## pokey

Freestep said:


> ... in my opinion, it's in the breed's best interest to be open to "crossing the streams" and bringing work into the American lines, bringing conformation into *Malinois-looking working lines*, and shooting for the "whole" GSD....


Interesting. Where are all these "Malinois-looking working lines" ? I have never seen one; and I have seen and worked a lot of dogs. Please provide some examples.


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## Freestep

pokey said:


> Interesting. Where are all these "Malinois-looking working lines" ? I have never seen one; and I have seen and worked a lot of dogs. Please provide some examples.


Actually someone else will have to provide the examples, as I was referring to a comment made that some working dogs are "square like a Malinois" (I'm paraphrasing here). But I have seen working-line dogs that are more square and straight-backed than show dogs. It doesn't seem to hurt their working ability any, though.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> If color is irrelevant, why do handlers ubiquitously choose to breed and show black and red dogs, to the exclusion of other colors?


Even in American lines, I have seen a bi-color show dog and certainly sable, the president of our club has a sable who either has her championship or is very close to it. 

As for the German show line dogs, black and red is dominant. I like the black and red. I like the way a black and red saddle - marked dog looks. It is the impression in my mind when I hear German Shepherd. 

I think when I said color was irrelevant, I was talking about the cookie cutter comment. With all black dogs, some have good conformation, and some have back, the color and markings are not relevent to their structure. Just because black and brown is the current big color does not mean that the dogs that wear that color are shaped exactly alike. They are not, they are as different as night and day.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> As for the German show line dogs, black and red is dominant. I like the black and red. I like the way a black and red saddle - marked dog looks. It is the impression in my mind when I hear German Shepherd.


So, are you saying that judges and show people all feel the same way? I have a hard time believing that all judges discriminate against other colors, just because they like the way black and red saddle-marked dogs look. If color is "irrelevant", shouldn't it be irrelevant? I am glad to see that there are ASL champions in all colors.


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## Xeph

Freestep, as a random aside, two years in a row, the GVx was a color that was not black and tan in any pattern.

The 2006 GVx, Castlehill's Tuff Cookie was a very dark sable, and the 2007 GVx was Mar Haven's Black Orchid, a solid black


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## Freestep

Xeph said:


> Freestep, as a random aside, two years in a row, the GVx was a color that was not black and tan in any pattern.
> 
> The 2006 GVx, Castlehill's Tuff Cookie was a very dark sable, and the 2007 GVx was Mar Haven's Black Orchid, a solid black


See, now that's what I like to see. The GSD has so many different colors and patterns and they're all beautiful to me... I am partial to black sables and bicolors, but I love to see a variety of colors.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> So, are you saying that judges and show people all feel the same way? I have a hard time believing that all judges discriminate against other colors, just because they like the way black and red saddle-marked dogs look. If color is "irrelevant", shouldn't it be irrelevant? I am glad to see that there are ASL champions in all colors.


Who is saying THAT???

It just seems you see a whole lot more black and red dogs in the German ring than anything else -- that is what I meant by dominant. Color SHOULD BE irrelevant when judging structure and temperament and movement. At the very end of judging when you have a couple of dog with no clear winner, you pick the dog that has the better pigment. Because pigment is a part of it. 

However, do judges have preferences. Probably. 

I was at the Cleveland Classic one year, watching the Herding group and there was a blue border collie, a blue rough collie, a blue shelti, and a blue smooth collie. Some of these breeds were judged by the same judge. Either blue was REALLY well represented or there was a judge sufffering from a color preference. Not sure. I do think it happens though.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> It just seems you see a whole lot more black and red dogs in the German ring than anything else -- that is what I meant by dominant.


Yes, and what I want to know is WHY.

I visited a GSL breeder once and mentioned that I liked sables, and he said "We don't breed sables." He went on to say that there was a sable female that caught his eye, who was out of showlines and showed a lot of drive. He said he really liked her and thought about purchasing her, but just had to pass because he didn't want any sable in his kennel.

This confounded me.


----------



## gagsd

Sable is genetically dominant. So if you see a lot of any other color within a group, it is because that other color has been selected for.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> Yes, and what I want to know is WHY.
> 
> I visited a GSL breeder once and mentioned that I liked sables, and he said "We don't breed sables." He went on to say that there was a sable female that caught his eye, who was out of showlines and showed a lot of drive. He said he really liked her and thought about purchasing her, but just had to pass because he didn't want any sable in his kennel.
> 
> This confounded me.


Your friend has a preference -- that is fine. 

I have seen some sable show line dogs, they are out there. There must be more demand for the black and red dogs in show people, that is what is being bred, that is what is being shown. I think we are putting too much emphasis on this. 

In fact, I do not think you will have show line people injecting working dogs into their lines to improve their temperaments, their drives, their working ability, because those things in their dogs are just fine in their opinion. 

Just like the working line people are not going to inject a show line dog into their lines. 

It is just not happening, not on any large scale, and the vast majority of breeders who cross between working and show, are doing so for convenience and with little thought rather than the other way around. 

Think about it, if you have a top working dog, are you going to breed it to a showline bitch or a top working line bitch? I have an excellent German showline bitch with a great pedigree. My vet gave my number to a police officer with an awesome black working line dog -- many accomplishments. I do not want to breed to this dog. I want to breed to other show line dogs. A working line dog will give me an inconsistent litter with traits I am not looking for. I say this because it will be a total outcross. 

I think that the working line people should just be happy that they have the best, most correct dogs and stop trying to convert the show line people to their way of thinking. 

And the show line people should just be happy that they have the best, most correct dogs and stop trying to engage the working line people in their way of thinking. 

It isn't working. 

Just love your dog.


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## wolfstraum

Kennel Argigento in Germany bred to Zender Lusondai (Wallace Payne from GA is competing with the dog)....many kennels in Germany will interject a working/show cross into their breeding program now and then. It is NOT unheard of. I often look at pedigrees and see a showline on the 3rd or 4th generation..and often it IS the show kennel doing the outside breeding.

There have been some sable showline dogs place VA at the Sieger show....Timo Berrekastan for one...his sire's second dam is a WL - Busecker Schloss and Racker Itzal...haus Drexel has sable SL, as does Silbersee here in the US...but the Martin brothers during their tenure controlling the SV imposed **THEIR** vision of the black and red saddle pattern as THE ideal for the ring, doing extremely close inbreedings (DNA came up with hundreds of dogs whose pedigrees had to be redone....hmmmm - matter of record and one of the kennels was suspended for a period of time - Arminius I believe, now a daughter breeds under that kennel name).

Prior to their tenure, there were bi/blanket, sable and even pure blacks going VA - and the "split" was not nearly the chasm that it is now.

Lee


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I think that the working line people should just be happy that they have the best, most correct dogs and stop trying to convert the show line people to their way of thinking.
> 
> And the show line people should just be happy that they have the best, most correct dogs and stop trying to engage the working line people in their way of thinking.


This is what contributes to the split between show vs. working. To think that your dogs are the best and cannot be improved upon is a form of kennel blindness IMO. Now, if you have dogs that can acheive the highest level of sport/work AND acheive the highest show rating, then I'd say, keep doing what you're doing and don't mess it up!

If I were a breeder, I'd want the whole package. 

I once read an interview with a famous German breeder (can't remember his name) who breeds showline dogs, and he said his method was to inject a working dog (I believe his words were "a total nut") every 4th or 5th generation, to keep the working attributes in his dogs. He said the first generation crosses would be all over the map in terms of drive, temperament, and conformation, but by choosing the offspring wisely he was able to continue producing V-rated dogs that were also strong in the work. I found this very interesting.


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## selzer

I am talking lines, not the individual dogs. If you like working lines, than you can think they are correct and the best out there. 

Kennel blindness is different, that is not being able to evaluate your own dogs because you cannot see their faults. 

The line as a whole may have faults and use improving, but improving the GSD to make it fit into your idea of what the ideal is, well that has been done for years and years, and I think way too many people have done more harm than good. I do not think that the answer lies outside of the show lines. I think the answer is to find good examples of show line dogs and breed to them. I do not think it makes sense to take giant leaps in a different direction, I think moderate changes are a better way to go to make things better.

There are a lot of dogs out there. If you see trends in your bloodlines that you do not like, then you find a bloodline that is producing that characteristic more correctly and you breed to it. There is no reason to go to working lines to improve different characteristics. 

And as for the big names, you have to be careful the lines are only as good as whoever is currently in charge of the name. Some of the biggest names can go south fast if the wrong people take it over. As for the German dogs, if you go back far enough, we have the same dogs in our pedigrees. It makes sense that a breeder would see some qualities in another dog that he might want to add and see -- an outcross. But then you breed tight and close back in if you want anything to show, and to be consistent. I would think it very risky.


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## cliffson1

Freestep, leave it alone...lol Time will take care of the situation. Genetics always wins. Thirty-five years ago when the ASL were in the height of their popularity and Majors had seventy to eighty dogs, you found attitudes like the ones you are encountering. People were told then that this type of breeding would lead to the demise of the type in temperament and health and eventually popularity. Its thirty five years later, we don't have to guess what happened....its here. This same thing will happen to WGSL as time goes on,(Actually its already occurring), though you have excellent breeders like Silbersee or Witmer-Tyson, who are opening up their showlines to other colors and bloodlines....so right now I agree with Selzer, let each segment do their thing, and the genetics will win out, if the temp and health gets to a certain point, then the public will shy away regardless of color.


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Freestep, leave it alone...lol Time will take care of the situation. Genetics always wins. Thirty-five years ago when the ASL were in the height of their popularity and Majors had seventy to eighty dogs, you found attitudes like the ones you are encountering. People were told then that this type of breeding would lead to the demise of the type in temperament and health and eventually popularity. Its thirty five years later, we don't have to guess what happened....its here. This same thing will happen to WGSL as time goes on,(Actually its already occurring), though you have excellent breeders like Silbersee or Witmer-Tyson, who are opening up their showlines to other colors and bloodlines....so right now I agree with Selzer, let each segment do their thing, and the genetics will win out, if the temp and health gets to a certain point, then the public will shy away regardless of color.


Don't worry, my opinion isn't going to change anything.  Like I said, these are observations and opinions coming from a nobody in the GSD world... I don't show, don't breed, don't do sport... I'm not a threat to the status quo. You're right, time will tell and I'll be interested to see what happens. In the meantime I will quietly love my dogs! Sorry to cause a fuss.


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## Samba

Its only a fuss if someone makes it such. As I said, it is what it is and really, unless you can deny reality, you can not deny the obvious. As Cliff knows, time will tell the tale.

The worst thing to do is to start defending lines. Often people want to label the conversations as bashing or as being about discriminating against a certain line. Actually the topic is more about the breed. I have decided that jumping on supposed "bashing" and calling people who will discuss the truth "likers of certain lines" is one of the worst things that can be done if one is truly interested in understanding.


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## carmspack

selzer said:


> Who is saying THAT???
> 
> 
> . At the very end of judging when you have a couple of dog with no clear winner, you pick the dog that has the better pigment. Because pigment is a part of it.
> 
> 
> Sorry I have got to disagree with this one .
> 
> A judge has a duty to be aware what is missing in the entire breed . The choice for a high placement , V , Select , etc will influence breeders choices for particular lines , which in the end will be reflected in the future generations of upcoming dogs . Colour/pigment has no significance other than pleasing cosmetics .
> 
> The judge has to know what problems are currently common and need to be corrected. Reward the one that can help make a change .
> So one animal may have better feet , then he should be awarded, or one has better dentition , no missing teeth, then he should be awarded , better sprung pasterns, better confidence , better secondary sex characteristics - what ever is lacking in the whole of the breed , where one may contribute to a positive change , even though he is lacking in another area - then that is the one that has the most value.
> 
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Here is an example of one of my pedigrees Carmspack Sumo , who has highly obvious genetic obedience -- real strong herding instinct , "farm dog smarts" , hard and resilient yet highly biddable, strong work ethic and energy , mental and physical stamina , yet a dog with an off switch who can "disappear" all the while keeping an eye on you -- Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog I put him here because you can see the pedigree has strong west german working , strong czech working , strong ddr working , even west german show line (Bazita) -- and if you went back far enough on Sabrina you would have ddr, wgwl, back to the great old days of Marko and Bernd , to American show of the late 60's early 70's Yoncallas Mike, von Hessian's , Harrigan, Paladen etc as dicussed.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

I once read an interview with a famous German breeder (can't remember his name) who breeds showline dogs, and he said his method was to inject a working dog (I believe his words were "a total nut") every 4th or 5th generation, to keep the working attributes in his dogs. He said the first generation crosses would be all over the map in terms of drive, temperament, and conformation, but by choosing the offspring wisely he was able to continue producing V-rated dogs that were also strong in the work. I found this very interesting.[/QUOTE]


Hi Freestep -- that interview would have been with Walter Martin , head of the SV , and breeder of von Wienerau. The wild idiot total nut that he was talking about was his crazy female Vanta Ricardo Carbajal's 1992 Interview with Famous Breeder of the "von der Wienerau" German Shepherd Dogs

from the opening paragraph where dogs greeted the interviewer , all with raised hackles ... hmmm , 

the red comes from Berta Lorscher Sand , who along with colour , put her stamp of temperament problems onto the progeny 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Carmen, 
the reality is many people in the breed today only thirst for limited knowledge about the breed. The other thing that has taken hold is the value of "people's Likes in the breed" over "people breeding for right" in the breed. The information you are putting out are recipe's for well balanced, structurally correct, working dogs. You have psuedo experts in all the lines that place more value on their personal preferences than what is correct. (Like the breed needed for them to place their personal preference stamp on maintaining or correcting the breed). Of course this is driven by money and likes....two things that are often not associated with correct. The ASL didn't open their genepool and they regressed in temp and health, the WGSL hasn't opened their genepool, and they are regressing in temp and health, the DDR dogs that are "pure" DDR dogs are no longer the dogs they were in Temp and health,(and YOU know that better than anyone), because the genepool needs to be broader, the West working lines are going down the same path from Fero/Mink and in particular the T Litter Narbarschaft, The Czech breeders are really the only one opening up their lines CONSISTENTLY these days, and many knowledgable people who are objective consider them to be producing the best balanced dog in form and function together. 
I've accepted the fact that we have to wait this out for some of these lines to self correct, just like you have with an addict; in both cases, people who are profitable or smitten by the bug will not change until they(addicts) or the dogs(specialization breeders) hit rock bottom. Then they will have to bring new blood into their lines or dry up on the vine or become so inconsequential that nobody wants or respects then except the few remaining diehards.(Alsation breeders,________).
Time tells all.
I'm through preaching on this(I felt some people saying Whew, I'm glad he's getting off my toes...lol,) but it still won't change genetics prevailing in the end. Peace out!!
PS I don't want to forget the Scandinavian countries, they have mixed lines and dogs for YEARS, and is it any coincidence that they are really surfacing to the top of the breed world these days with their formulas for breeding.....(Of course if you are a breeder and are not aware of their formulas,(sigh, why bother), well lets just say they are getting it right...smile)


----------



## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> PS I don't want to forget the Scandinavian countries, they have mixed lines and dogs for YEARS, and is it any coincidence that they are really surfacing to the top of the breed world these days with their formulas for breeding.....(Of course if you are a breeder and are not aware of their formulas,(sigh, why bother), well lets just say they are getting it right...smile)


Can you expound on this for those of us who are not aware of their formulas?


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## LARHAGE

Freestep said:


> If color is irrelevant, why do handlers ubiquitously choose to breed and show black and red dogs, to the exclusion of other colors?



There is nothing wrong with breeding for colors you like as long as quality in the individuals is as high a priority, I breed black Arabians because that is my preference, not gray or chestnut, the quality in my pedigrees is every bit as superior, I LOVE black horses, therefore I breed them, I love Red/Black Shepherds, not sable, or black, therefore I have them, there quality is every bit as good, and YES my black and red Showline dogs can and do run along on hours long rides with my horses, you can have beauty and function with form in one package, it's a priority to me in both horses and dogs, all my horses are both halter AND performance champions.


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## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen,
> the reality is many people in the breed today only thirst for limited knowledge about the breed. The other thing that has taken hold is the value of "people's Likes in the breed" over "people breeding for right" in the breed. The information you are putting out are recipe's for well balanced, structurally correct, working dogs. You have psuedo experts in all the lines that place more value on their personal preferences than what is correct. (Like the breed needed for them to place their personal preference stamp on maintaining or correcting the breed). Of course this is driven by money and likes....two things that are often not associated with correct. The ASL didn't open their genepool and they regressed in temp and health, the WGSL hasn't opened their genepool, and they are regressing in temp and health, the DDR dogs that are "pure" DDR dogs are no longer the dogs they were in Temp and health,(and YOU know that better than anyone), because the genepool needs to be broader, the West working lines are going down the same path from Fero/Mink and in particular the T Litter Narbarschaft, The Czech breeders are really the only one opening up their lines CONSISTENTLY these days, and many knowledgable people who are objective consider them to be producing the best balanced dog in form and function together.


There seems to be an attitude of "more is better" even among dog breeders. There are issues IMO in every "type" - and the current trend to make over the top extreme crazy prey monsters is the bugaboo of the WGR WL - that and losing color (as per Scheld as well! There was so much in that presentation of his that was worthwhile!). 

Mixing geographic gene pools is not new, but it seems the WG WL breeders do not do it that often - of course, quite a few did use Tom Leefdahlhof very sucessfully!!! He is spread across Europe from Denmark to the Czech Republic!!! A very well known Czech breeder told me that the Czechs have backed themselves into a corner and NEED to cross out to other European gene pools! This particular breeder - which I cannot spell !!! Jana (website is artzlipin.cz) has been crossing out alot to Belgian and WGR dogs. I know quite a few dogs from her kennel, personally and 2nd hand/by reputation. Hard, strong dogs and not for everyone. Over the top prey with very strong aggression - some not appropriate, and a few (one 14 mo old) with extreme handler hardness....again, not pups for the average pet home!

Personally, I have several sources of Mink/Fero free blood, and zealously guard it. It is mixed WG WL, DDR, Belgian and will be bringing in some Czech with Gaston and Kutter I hope this summer. I have one female (KKL1) line bred on Fero, and am trying to avoid more Fero with her. And I did bring in a female pup recently who is WGR but free of Fero and Mink, who ties into my current lines. 

I agree that there are too many who just breed because they LIKE something without any consideration to the balance, the backmassing and the potential for negative results.

Lee


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## Freestep

wolfstraum said:


> Personally, I have several sources of Mink/Fero free blood, and zealously guard it. It is mixed WG WL, DDR, Belgian and will be bringing in some Czech with Gaston and Kutter I hope this summer. I have one female (KKL1) line bred on Fero, and am trying to avoid more Fero with her. And I did bring in a female pup recently who is WGR but free of Fero and Mink, who ties into my current lines.


Rather than hijack the thread, I'm going to start another thread on the Fero and Mink issue:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/161772-fero-mink.html#post2178376


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## Andaka

In the ASL we have bred ourselves into a corner with Dallas and his half brothers. You often see dogs now that are advertised as linebred Dallas and even inbred Dallas. I like much of the dallas progeny and grand-progeny, i am just worried that we are getting ourselves into more trouble will the bottlenecking. We do have the West Coast lines (Color Guard progeny), but dogs in the Mid-West are easieer to get to for breeding and therefore get the most breedings.


----------



## selzer

carmspack said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is saying THAT???
> 
> 
> . At the very end of judging when you have a couple of dog with no clear winner, you pick the dog that has the better pigment. Because pigment is a part of it.
> 
> 
> Sorry I have got to disagree with this one .
> 
> A judge has a duty to be aware what is missing in the entire breed . The choice for a high placement , V , Select , etc will influence breeders choices for particular lines , which in the end will be reflected in the future generations of upcoming dogs . Colour/pigment has no significance other than pleasing cosmetics .
> 
> The judge has to know what problems are currently common and need to be corrected. Reward the one that can help make a change .
> So one animal may have better feet , then he should be awarded, or one has better dentition , no missing teeth, then he should be awarded , better sprung pasterns, better confidence , better secondary sex characteristics - what ever is lacking in the whole of the breed , where one may contribute to a positive change , even though he is lacking in another area - then that is the one that has the most value.
> 
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> 
> 
> And I will disagree with you, because what I said is AFTER everything else, if you have two dogs that are otherwise equal, you would pick the dog with the better pigment.
> 
> Pigment/color is a part of it. It is written that pale, washed out colors are not desired. All other things being equal, the dog with the better pigment should win. Strong, rich colors are desired.
Click to expand...


----------



## Xeph

> In the ASL we have bred ourselves into a corner with Dallas and his half brothers. You often see dogs now that are advertised as linebred Dallas and even inbred Dallas. I like much of the dallas progeny and grand-progeny, i am just worried that we are getting ourselves into more trouble will the bottlenecking. We do have the West Coast lines (Color Guard progeny), but dogs in the Mid-West are easieer to get to for breeding and therefore get the most breedings.


Agree with every single bit of this.


----------



## Freestep

Andaka said:


> In the ASL we have bred ourselves into a corner with Dallas and his half brothers. You often see dogs now that are advertised as linebred Dallas and even inbred Dallas. I like much of the dallas progeny and grand-progeny, i am just worried that we are getting ourselves into more trouble will the bottlenecking.


Who is Dallas and what is it that makes him popular? Forgive my ignorance.


----------



## Andaka

Dallas was a top show dog handled and promoted by Jimmy Moses. He sired quite a few litters, and is the highest producer of AKC champions ever.

Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Andaka said:


> Dallas was a top show dog handled and promoted by Jimmy Moses. He sired quite a few litters, and is the highest producer of AKC champions ever.
> 
> Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes


I (not so) secretly believe that one of his parents or grandparents had to be German lines. He had a beautiful head, among other nice features, but his head just doesn't look like either of his parents. Where did it come from? It's not just a mutation... Is this ever rumored about?


----------



## selzer

He also had some type of herding championship or titles. 

He was a nice dog, died at age nine, was a nice dog. I do not really like some of his offspring that others rave about.


----------



## Samba

I recently came back to the show arena. I heard mention of the "Bailey type". Came to find out that referred to a Dallas son. Then seeing pedigrees, it is as Daphne mentions. The lines are piling up on Dallas. People have likened to the backmassing that Which occured with Lance.

It is not to say that Dallas didn't offer something. I find the dogs in the ring more moderate and some improvement in temperament. Even though good may be brought in with a dog, everything else associated also follows and there is going to be backmassing on Dallas.

I do see more and more people bringing other lines into their show breedings now.

I don't think Dallas had German bloodline?

AOE SELECT EX. CH. Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Samba said:


> I don't think Dallas had German bloodline?
> 
> AOE SELECT EX. CH. Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes - German Shepherd Dog


No, on paper, there are recent German ancestors.


----------



## selzer

Impulse in his third generation has a dog Bernd (born in 1957) in his third generation. 

If anyone can find a closer one, but, I would say Dallas is about as American as Apple Pie and Baseball.


----------



## GSDGunner

Dare I mention I have a Dallas Grandson? 

Like or dislike Dallas, but I LOVE my baby, regardless of what line he came from.
And that's about all I can contribute to this conversation.


----------



## suzzyq01

Since you guys have been discussing Am lines, While I was at protection training this weekend this little pup was there. Am lines - not too sure of the exact bloodlines, I am sure I can find out. But everyone there was making fun of it/joking (mainly bc it's a working dog club), the angulation was insane, she is 10 weeks old and can barely walk and is almost walking on her "heels" I guess you would call it. I know NOTHING about Am lines, so I just thought I'd ask your opinion. I don't care for the look, I prefer the working lines look much better. But she seemed to be a very nice pup.


----------



## suzzyq01

Duh here is the photo!


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## Xeph

She's got a lot of rear, may walk on her hocks. She may lose some of that as she goes stagey (5-8 monthsish), and then it may come back as an adult, though with luck (and conditioning) she'll be able to "use it" better. Too much rear for my tastes, but good on the owner for bringing her out to the club 

My Mirada is a Dallas granddaughter BTW, just to get back to the conversation.

And just because a dog is American, it doesn't have to mean that the dog's head will be weak.

Ch Mar Haven's Remember Me of Mi-Peg


----------



## Freestep

Andaka said:


> Dallas was a top show dog handled and promoted by Jimmy Moses. He sired quite a few litters, and is the highest producer of AKC champions ever.
> 
> Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes


Nice looking dog, moderate, and as others mentioned he has a beautiful head!


----------



## Freestep

suzzyq01 said:


> Since you guys have been discussing Am lines, While I was at protection training this weekend this little pup was there. Am lines - not too sure of the exact bloodlines, I am sure I can find out. But everyone there was making fun of it/joking (mainly bc it's a working dog club), the angulation was insane, she is 10 weeks old and can barely walk and is almost walking on her "heels" I guess you would call it. I know NOTHING about Am lines, so I just thought I'd ask your opinion. I don't care for the look, I prefer the working lines look much better. But she seemed to be a very nice pup.


Yeah I don't like the hock-walker look, but that pup sure has nice pigment! Good for her owners to bring her out to the club.


----------



## Andaka

My young dog has no Dallas and is 1/4 DDR breeding. He has matured in stages different than I am used to -- he recently grew in the back and I think it helps his movement to have more room underneath. He is 17 months old.










Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Samba

Dallas was out of R-Man. I liked R Man as a show dog. Did not know him personally.

Daphne can correct me if I am wrong. Not all ASL dogs are extreme in angulation. In fact, many of the show breedings I know of end up with some moderation. The all- breed ring has long had a more moderately built GSD. Dallas was mostly an all-breed type. People seem to get caught up in the pictures of the extreme specialty dogs because, well, they are more extreme. The specialty ring is not what it once was. The number of shows is greatly reduced. The dogs are not as extreme as they were in the 80s. 

The weak heads in males are out. I seldom see one like I did years ago (Flag era). Breeders have made real improvement in male heads!

I have a pup that combines Color Guard with Dallas lines. She is pretty solid, tough little girl with some boldness.

Daphne, I see your boy has grown. It is amazing what difference a little bit of growthnin one direction or another can make. My puppy is 7 months old. She needs a little leg now!


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## robinhuerta

I don't think the pup's rear in the picture looks terrible.....(less than some and more than others.)
Most pups with more than average angulation can and do look like that...at that age. SHOOT....I've got a couple.
But I can guarantee...they will look strong when they are older. They *will* have temperament and drives, and they *will* show beautifully.
So.....FWIW...I actually like angles... (crippled looking is another thing/NO I don't like it)... I dislike straight, rear stifle bones and tall hocks.
I like angles in both WL & SL.


----------



## selzer

Nice color, she may grow out of the back end thing. Hard to say. 

Remember me has a very nice head and expression.


----------



## LARHAGE

I don't think that puppy is horrible either, she is young and lanky, I'll bet she will have nice drive off her hocks when mature, I like a dog that can use their rear end, thats why I'm not a fan of too level a topline.


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## gagsd

I have seen some really "hocky" puppies from Am Show Lines. They do grow out of it mostly.
However, they look awful and the only people that understand it are other show people. Anyone else that sees the puppy is quite sure that something is seriously wrong. 
IMO, it should not be the norm to explain weird structure on a regular basis.


----------



## Xeph

> I'll bet she will have nice drive off her hocks when mature,


I sure hope she doesn't drive off her hock! She should drive clean off her feet! But I may be interpreting what you said incorrectly


----------



## selzer

gagsd said:


> I have seen some really "hocky" puppies from Am Show Lines. They do grow out of it mostly.
> However, they look awful and the only people that understand it are other show people. Anyone else that sees the puppy is quite sure that something is seriously wrong.
> IMO, it should not be the norm to explain weird structure on a regular basis.



Oh, I don't know, explaining why a pup looks gangly in a gangly stage is better than explaining why an adult does not look like a shepherd. And I would expect ALL of us have had to explain that sheps come in different colors, and different structures. There should be a permanent thread: "What's he mixed with?"


----------



## suzzyq01

She was a very nice pup. I think because I have never seen anything like that before I was like "oh lord that poor pup!" 

They are planning on working her because she does have nice drive, already picking up and carrying the baby dumb bell. They also put her on the pole and she went right after the decoy and flirt pole. She did better than some of the working line dogs there lol. 

It's just different, and something I haven't been exposed to. I will try and get better photos of her this week. Thanks for you opinions and explanation. I love learning! :hug:


----------



## Xeph

> So.....FWIW...I actually like angles... (crippled looking is another thing/NO I don't like it)... I dislike straight, rear stifle bones and tall hocks.
> I like angles in both WL & SL.


Missed this post before, and I wanted to give this section a big thumbs up! I like good angles on a dog, but I don't want/need overdone.

I think that Ellex, Branko, and Paska Salztalblick all have/had beautiful angles. Also love Frankie and Francesko Anrebri. The last two are beautifully structured animals.


----------



## robinhuerta

But see Mary...you just said..."It should not be the norm to explain weird structure on a regular basis"...........however;...it is not "weird" structure.....it is simply different looking. There is nothing "weird" about angled puppies that grow into strong bodied adults......it's just a "phase" in their development.
*Most* puppies with more than average rear angulation...*do in fact*..grow out of the "stage of looking loose in the rear"..or "slightly toe'd in or toe'd out"....and grow to have strong rears *with* angulation.
*I have a few of those type dogs*....gangly at 4mos...and strong when they passed the stage. FAR from being un-sound in body.....this I am quite positive about.
I'm not experienced with the genetics of the ASL...but I know this happens & is common with the WGSL's.


----------



## marshies

Daphne, do you have a website for your dogs? I keep googling and googling...but never had any success.


----------



## gagsd

robinhuerta said:


> But see Mary...you just said..."It should not be the norm to explain weird structure on a regular basis"...........however;...it is not "weird" structure.....it is simply different looking. There is nothing "weird" about angled puppies that grow into strong bodied adults......it's just a "phase" in their development.
> *Most* puppies with more than average rear angulation...*do in fact*..grow out of the "stage of looking loose in the rear"..or "slightly toe'd in or toe'd out"....and grow to have strong rears *with* angulation.
> *I have a few of those type dogs*....gangly at 4mos...and strong when they passed the stage. FAR from being un-sound in body.....this I am quite positive about.
> I'm not experienced with the genetics of the ASL...but I know this happens & is common with the WGSL's.


I am not talking about slightly... I am talking about puppies who walk completely on their hocks at 4-6 months old. Puppies who fall over when they try to make a turn. What I am talking about is nothing like normal puppy gangliness.

And yes, most of these do grow out of it.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

robinhuerta said:


> ...however;...it is not "weird" structure.....it is simply different looking. There is nothing "weird" about angled puppies that grow into strong bodied adults......it's just a "phase" in their development.
> *Most* puppies with more than average rear angulation...*do in fact*..grow out of the "stage of looking loose in the rear"..or "slightly toe'd in or toe'd out"....and grow to have strong rears *with* angulation.


Robin any chance you have pictures to show the progression you're talking about? (not doubting your word, just wanted to see it)


----------



## suzzyq01

This website is pretty cool and shows the progression of the hock....

past to present


----------



## robinhuerta

I'm horrible at posting pics...I don't know how.?
I could probably find a couple though....I'll have to look.


----------



## Xeph

> This website is pretty cool and shows the progression of the hock....


They come up from time to time....not terribly knowledgeable, and have a few dogs placed in the wrong time periods...

What changed over time is the angulation of the dogs, as well as toplines (Euro show lines). The hock is the part of the dog's rear assembly...the bone between the "heel" and the foot.


----------



## Freestep

Samba said:


> The dogs are not as extreme as they were in the 80s.


Yes, I see there has been improvement. 

I always loved GSDs as a kid... thought of them as beautiful, noble, brave and bold. When I first started going to dog shows in the 1980's I was horrified by what I saw. Hock-walkers, narrow, greyhound-like heads, and spooky temperaments. I couldn't believe this was the same dog that did Police and rescue work, and chalked it up to show ring breeding. I knew the dogs in Germany were different, but I had never seen any German dogs, so I was wondering what the heck happened to the GSD in America and why. I am glad to see more moderate agulation, stronger heads, and better temperaments in today's ASL.

My first dog, Storm, was a GSD cross I got from a BYB. I was 18 years old and didn't know any better, I just knew I didn't want one of those "show dogs"... Storm's mother was American-bred, but apparently from old American lines. The breeder opened up a German Shepherd book and pointed to the dogs in the pedigree. She also said that there were a couple of aunts/unlces that did police work.

The father belonged to a neighbor and was supposedly a purebred GSD, but without papers, and I am pretty sure there was something else in the woodpile. It was an oops litter. But Storm was an outstanding dog and I'm glad to have had her.


----------



## Andaka

marshies said:


> Daphne, do you have a website for your dogs? I keep googling and googling...but never had any success.


No website right now. I used to have one on AOL, but they quit hosting them. But in my signature I have a link to the pedigrees on the pedigree data base.


----------



## Samba

The first GSD I got was an ASL. He was extreme and lacking in good secondary sex characteristics. I loved him and he was devoted entirely to me. There was a lot to like in him as a companion. But, I was confused. I had always thought of the German Shepherds as strong, stable and talented. I realized my dog was far from one that could serve as a police dog or other service. Then I started reading and talking to people. As so it began.....


----------



## robinhuerta

I've owned "crappers" from both WL & SL....and so it *ended*.
I will not own or intentionally breed from a "crapper" of any line......not worth the disappointments or aggravation. _*Besides a whole list of other reasons_...*


----------



## carmspack

LARHAGE said:


> There is nothing wrong with breeding for colors you like as long as quality in the individuals is as high a priority, I breed black Arabians because that is my preference, not gray or chestnut, the quality in my pedigrees is every bit as superior, I LOVE black horses, therefore I breed them, I love Red/Black Shepherds, not sable, or black,
> 
> 
> Larhage -- I have some experience in horses also. Rocky Mountain , Mountain Mountain Saddle (same genetics/origin separate registry determined by size and amounts and placement of white on face , legs)
> I brought them into Ontario in the early 90's , was told I had the finest band of brood mares, had three foals born on property.
> The horses I selected were rock solid sure , easy, kind, "born broke" horses that were born and raised in pastures . You could go up to any one and just climb on and go. My initial horse was shown with mount to swim with water up to her shoulder , after flooding stranded a group of horses and young ones on an island. She had them follow her back . Very brave , very kind. Her foal (stud was my selection) was born on my property. When this filly was a year old my grand daughter all of 3 or 4 years of age could sit on her and I would guide her around by her halter . I could go out to the field and just sit on her and have her walk around. LOW to NO spook. This filly , like her dam was a roan. Her dams second filly was the signature colour , chocolate with flaxen mane and tail.
> Just that -- made this animal substantially more valuable because the colour was , beautiful, uncommon, and in demand . So filly number one worth about $3,000 at birth , filly number two worth about $8 to 10,000 .
> 
> the other horses in my band were a "signature colour" paso fino , rocky mountain cross , a solid black , a palomino --
> 
> Well people went wild for the colour . As time passed and specimens were seen at the Royal Winter Fair equestrian shows , and people were importing / breeding , aiming for that COLOUR , the TEMPERAMENT of the horses changed. I saw more RMH that were just horses -- what made them special wasn't there so much. Sort of like young couples driving out to "the country" and wanting to live there -- so a little development starts , and more and more come, and what was once a dusty road with slow paced peaceful living , becomes a hard paved road with a stripe down the middle with commuter driving in ebb and flow , fast and impatient. What they wanted , they destroyed.
> 
> I did not have any more foals after those three , a roan (fab) a chocolate with flaxen mane and tail , and a palomnio .
> 
> When you select for and have the superficial dictate your choices then something suffers .
> 
> Carmen


----------



## carmspack

I think that little pup is sickle hocked . 
Movement is not just side gait and trot , but walk , and cantor and gallop . I have a female that races through her track at a happy fast clip, her cantor . When dogs race to over take they go into an explosive gallop. They have to be able to twist and turn , stop abruptly. Exagerated angulation, or fixed sickle hock prevents this Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, THE HINDQUARTERS

Carmen


----------



## carmspack

if you want to see lots of freakish conformation just visit the pedigree data base and see some of the listings of pups - German show lines -- never thought I would see something like that !! honest.

the German Shepherd was to have a noble , fearless expression , "the look of eagles" -- the ASL I see look like they are drifting off to sleep , about to head up to bed with a cup of warm milk.


----------



## s14roller

The ASL breeder near me is where I ended up getting my pup from. 

Alkarah - Quality AKC German Shepherd Dogs

So far, I'm very happy with my dog...and she's a beauty to boot!


----------



## Freestep

LARHAGE said:


> The horses I selected were rock solid sure , easy, kind, "born broke" horses that were born and raised in pastures . You could go up to any one and just climb on and go. My initial horse was shown with mount to swim with water up to her shoulder , after flooding stranded a group of horses and young ones on an island. She had them follow her back . Very brave , very kind. Her foal (stud was my selection) was born on my property. When this filly was a year old my grand daughter all of 3 or 4 years of age could sit on her and I would guide her around by her halter . I could go out to the field and just sit on her and have her walk around. LOW to NO spook.


WANT.

I don't care if that horse is purple with green spots. 

It's a shame that people will put color before the really important stuff.

Just out of curiosity, does your line still exist?


----------



## Xeph

Ah! One of Karin Wagner's dogs  You should be happy with her  Will you be showing?


----------



## s14roller

Xeph said:


> Ah! One of Karin Wagner's dogs  You should be happy with her  Will you be showing?


Yes! Karin has been great! I was lucky that she's within an hour from me, so I had a chance to talk to her numerous times in person before getting my pup.

As for showing, probably not, I really just want a GSD that grows up to how I envision a GSD to be...intelligent, obedient, healthy, etc. I've been focusing more on training her for now. We shall see though


----------



## Xeph

Random question for you...have you ever been to the National Dog Show in Philly (not the same as the GSDCA national)?


----------



## s14roller

I haven't been to any shows (conformation or working type shows) although it'd be cool to check them out at some point.


----------



## GSDGunner

carmspack said:


> the German Shepherd was to have a noble , fearless expression , "the look of eagles" -- the ASL I see look like they are drifting off to sleep , about to head up to bed with a cup of warm milk.


----------



## Freestep

carmspack said:


> the German Shepherd was to have a noble , fearless expression , "the look of eagles" -- the ASL I see look like they are drifting off to sleep , about to head up to bed with a cup of warm milk.


Yeah, I don't know about that... if anything, I've seen some of them look a little nervous. I'd actually prefer a sleepy looking dog to that!

they do seem to stack them differently in the AKC ring, with the head strung up high, whereas in the German-style show ring they are standing with the head in a more natural position. It would make sense to string up the head if the ASL's were looking sleepy.


----------



## s14roller

GSDGunner said:


>


Agreed...it's hard to just make blanket statements...

Here is mine at 4 months. I'd say her expressions are quite noble...


----------



## Xeph

While some dogs are "strung up", the carriage of the American dog's heads is naturally higher than the Euro dogs. I often feel the Euro dogs hold their heads way too low and it makes their withers look quite flat.

Here's baby Mirada learning how to stack. I'm not holding her head up (obviously)...that's the natural set of her neck



















Just shy of 9 months here (and freestacked)









Here's an adult Mirada....same thing


----------



## LARHAGE

Freestep said:


> WANT.
> 
> I don't care if that horse is purple with green spots.
> 
> It's a shame that people will put color before the really important stuff.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, does your line still exist?



I have a Tennessee Walking Horse STALLION with that type of disposition, he is homozygous for spots and is black and white and was specifically bred for his color, again, breeding for color as long as all the other qualities are present does NOT result in an inferior animal, dog or horse , you absolutely can have it all.


----------



## s14roller

Xeph said:


> Here's an adult Mirada....same thing


Last pic looks great. Any tips for that muscle tone and coat?


----------



## LARHAGE

s14roller said:


> Agreed...it's hard to just make blanket statements...
> 
> Here is mine at 4 months. I'd say her expressions are quite noble...



That is a beautiful puppy with great expression, I love her!


----------



## s14roller

LARHAGE said:


> That is a beautiful puppy with great expression, I love her!


Thank you!


----------



## Xeph

> Last pic looks great. Any tips for that muscle tone and coat?


I do nothing with my puppies but let them free run and chase balls. We've just started structured exercise with biking, and now that she's old enough, I'll be a bit more demanding on her.

As for coat...nope, no tips. She looks good there because I tend to take stacked shots of my dogs right after they've been bathed 

My dogs are bathed once a month, regardless of whether or not they're showing that month. The show dogs are always bathed a couple of days in advance of a show, and so are bathed more often, depending.


----------



## horsegirl

Hi all, 
I have owned and show ASL for a short 6 years, so my expirience is nothing compared to some of you. This is what I have seen happen; When I first started , they were many bitchy looking dogs , lots of angles and bad "hockwalkers". At the speciatly show last weekend I noticed the majority of dogs had nice heads , sex characteristics have improved tons, I can actually see a GSD and tell if it is a dog or bitch without looking at its "parts". The angles have improved, most looked good comming and going and still kept thier nice side gate. I did however see a few really in my opinion bad dogs , bitchy heads , weak temperaments ect.. they did not win, but again the majority were sound. I am not sure if people have finally woken up, or the judges have started to stop rewarding unsound, not of standard dogs or what , but i truely think things are improving. pics of my 100% ASL male , no bitchy head here


----------



## horsegirl

s14roller said:


> The ASL breeder near me is where I ended up getting my pup from.
> 
> Alkarah - Quality AKC German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> So far, I'm very happy with my dog...and she's a beauty to boot!


Nice breeding , looks like they choose some nice stud dogs to breed to. you should be happy !


----------



## Freestep

horsegirl said:


> I did however see a few really in my opinion bad dogs , bitchy heads , weak temperaments ect.. they did not win, but again the majority were sound.


This is good to hear. I have never been to a specialty.



> pics of my 100% ASL male , no bitchy head here
> View attachment 9483


Indeed! Very handsome, masculine boy.

I am glad I started this thread, I've been learning a lot about ASL's and I'm feeling more positive about the direction they are going.


----------



## Xeph

> I have never been to a specialty.


I must agree. Back when I first started, I went to my first specialty and wanted to cry at most of the dogs there. Temperaments weren't as good, TONS of dogs walking on their hocks, over done, etc etc.

There has been breeding back towards moderation, and I really like it. You'll always have extreme animals, because that's what some people like, but they are definitely not as they were. Definitely seeing better heads in males. Bitches still need work, IMO.

Many people like my little girl's head, and I can honestly say I hate it. It's "pretty" but it is not strong. She is over refined. A bitch does not need to have such a snipey muzzle to be feminine


----------



## GSDGunner

I don't have any stacked photos, so I'll post a head shot. I think he looks pretty masculine to me.  But I may be just a tad biased.


----------



## carmspack

by sleepy I mean the eye , which is soft expression 

I think the ASL by and large have much better front angulation than the WGSL. 
Very few of them lift and chop , they throw their legs out ahead of them . The better shoulder layback and whither allow for the dog to look up , also seen on the ddr and czech dogs --- the WGSL's have necks rammed into hump backs.

Go to the site of Alkarah -- those are some nice top lines , and really nice fore assembly -- the dogs are balanced in their conformation -- although some have excessive rear -- the other thing I see which is that at least the ASL breeders keep back progeny and direct it generation to generation with a plan -- many of the american WGSL AND WGWL AND DDR/Czech breed one generation , from import and them move on .

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Xeph

> I think the ASL by and large have much better front angulation than the WGSL.


It's interesting to hear you say this, Carmen, as a complaint I hear from Euro line breeders is that the fronts of AmLine dogs are far too upright.

What would you say in that regard?


----------



## Xeph

Also, here's a picture of my German cross male, so you can see how his set of neck is naturally lower than my American girl


----------



## carmspack

Freestep said:


> WANT.
> 
> I don't care if that horse is purple with green spots.
> 
> It's a shame that people will put color before the really important stuff.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, does your line still exist?


 
well it wasn't my line as much as it was still an olde untampered with line going back to foundation horse Tobe who was a natural ambling gaited horse . No pacing , no hot temperament of the tennessee walker -- very very easy keeper -- sometimes described as easy as keeping a deer -- the horse can thrive foraging on bark and scrubby grasses -- 

breed became official in 1989 -- I had a eye dropping beautiful Morgan who was too exciting -- never a totally relaxed ride , would startle stamp , avoid , one fall we were doing a trail and there was a row of poplars with dark green on the outer leaf and silver white on the underside . Wind caught it and the shimmering effect made the tree look alive -- this Morgan just could not get past it , she backed, she turned , she refused. Had an experienced rider trade spots with me to get her past it and they could not either. She had always been a bit worried - but typical of a horse .

I think it was 92 that I brought in the Rocky Mountains . One of the sheriffs that I dealt with was a Tuttle and I went to school with a Toothill , a super genius boy , so we got talking about the name and its origins and when he started talking about relatives in the area and the horses , becauses Tuttle's are very important to the breed , that is when I was introduced and soon after had them in my yard.

I introduced them to Gary Convery who ran Pleasure Valley a trail riding business in Uxbridge . He had always been known for good old (good footed) quarter horses -- Once he knew the gaited horses that is what he switched his trail horses to . They are such a comfortable sit . Truly like sitting in a rocking chair and gliding across the landscape.

The horses (when bred right) are extremely calm, curious , sure footed.

I went on an all woman 35 mile trail ride with a guest who was nervous riding because of her experience with others (being tossed - or having a runaway) . I rode Misty , she rode Toffee my paso fino , mountain horse cross . Toffee was about 2 and a bit , just under saddle , trained , the whispering way long before all this fuss and marketing and scamstering with the horse whisperer became a commodity , back to the honest Pat Parelli and Tom Dorrance , Ray Hunt . She had been under saddle , took to it immediately, no buck , no excitement , for under a month .
My nervous guest rode her , no bit , halter only . We went through a ministry organized tree clearing area - chain saws , chippers going. Did not even flinch . We got "lost" because some fool had turned the arrows around in random directions . There were young guys , part of a dirt bike rally equally lost zooming towards us on the very narrow path . I moved my mount backing up the incline and she did the same . We gave them their head so that they could see what was happening and they were as good as gold. We lost a few riders when their horses got scared and ran off -- others had horses rear , one rider hit her head on the nape of the neck. The bikers should have got off and walked past us , but they were young and scared of being lost and so courtesy went out the window.

This was early fall and we had a four seasons day from hot to windy to short blast of rain fall . We had to go through an area which had not been groomed for a while for trail riding . Foot in stirrup would hit the tree to either side -- really tough to get through -- The wind caught my guest rain poncho which she had just put on , and the wind flipped it over her eyes --- little Toffee was dependable and took the path without being bothered by my guest flailing her arms over her head, having dropped the reins , and squirming and shifting her weight . 

The final touch was when we had been able to find the right path , some 5 hours later with no breaks because it was starting to get dark . The gaited horses have such a roomy stride that even at a slow walk they cover more ground and so we were a good 300 feet ahead of everyone . Another thing is that they are confident so that they are not afraid to be out on their own away from the herd . So we here this yell --- look out -- and look behind and all of the others are running full tilt our way . Great. I prepared to be involved in the excitement of the run . Apparently someone had disturbed a bees nest or wasp nest and the bugs were mad and chasing the riders , one of them had an allergy to bee stings . She carried an epi pen , and we always had emergency medical supplies as part of a kit . Credit to the horses , even though we had this stampede catch up with us , we could easily control the horses we were riding. That day the importance of temperament was never so much appreciated . 

I saw many horses come in and breeders establish themselves but I also saw some of that temperament , not a priority , disappear and that is when I stopped .

yes there are still some of those original horses around. Gary, my friend passed away suddenly from a heart attack, but his wife carries on with the business and has a native American natural horsemanship woman that helps out or does training and lecture seminars. Did you know that the original Apaloosa's were gaited horses ? Real bit of history of the opening of the west . The last horse that Gary bought from me was a son of Misty , the one I road on this endurance ride --- a pale palimino named WINTER SUN . 

They would have related animals still among their herd, or through her connections she would be able to recommend specific horses. Gary passed away Dec 05 and his wife Jacquie has taken over . Could not find nicer people.

For Ontario / Toronto folks , the former Pleasure Valley is now a horsemanship centre. The horses like mine live a natural life in the fields with shelter provided for them to choose to go to if and when they want. They are natural foot , unshod unless a condition warrants it. They are pasture fed , grass hay fed - minimal to no grains . Healthy and long lived . The location is north on Brock Street , between Goodwood 21 and north of the Stouffville road . East side of the street. You'll see the herd peacefully grazing .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> yes there are still some of those original horses around.


And would I have to go to Toronto to find them?

Someday I want another horse. I had an old Thoroughbred, retired racer, dressage and lesson horse. He was great, a very gentle, level-headed horse, but he was still a TB and at a trot, it was like riding a jackhammer.  I had to part with him after my shop burned down and I was out of business for a year; I simply couldn't afford to keep a horse anymore.

But someday, I would love to have a smaller gaited horse, with the temperament you described. I have neck and back issues so gaited is very appealing.

Anyway... talk about thread drift...  sorry.


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## horsegirl

GSDGunner said:


> I don't have any stacked photos, so I'll post a head shot. I think he looks pretty masculine to me.  But I may be just a tad biased.


handsome man!


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## horsegirl

Freestep said:


> This is good to hear. I have never been to a specialty.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed! Very handsome, masculine boy.
> 
> I am glad I started this thread, I've been learning a lot about ASL's and I'm feeling more positive about the direction they are going.


yes I see improvement , that is all I can hope for. thanks for the compliment on my man , I will be sure to tell him when I get home  , p.s. my moderate , healthy , sound minded dog with crazy ball drive is 1 point away from his championship , then off to herding we go!!!


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## horsegirl

i agree here is a pic of my girl 1 year old , about to pounce on her big brother






her head could use a little growing up ..


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## Tbarrios333

cliffson1 said:


> The ASL didn't open their genepool and they regressed in temp and health, the WGSL hasn't opened their genepool, and they are regressing in temp and health, the DDR dogs that are "pure" DDR dogs are no longer the dogs they were in Temp and health,(and YOU know that better than anyone), because the genepool needs to be broader, the West working lines are going down the same path from Fero/Mink and in particular the T Litter Narbarschaft, The Czech breeders are really the only one opening up their lines CONSISTENTLY these days, and many knowledgable people who are objective consider them to be producing the best balanced dog in form and function together.


Out of all the great info on this thread, this "newb" found this statement the most helpful. An objective observation of all the lines. Thanks Cliff!


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## Freestep

Xeph said:


> Many people like my little girl's head, and I can honestly say I hate it. It's "pretty" but it is not strong. She is over refined. A bitch does not need to have such a snipey muzzle to be feminine


I was going to say, her head looks too small for her body.  Otherwise she is lovely.


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## Xeph

> I was going to say, her head looks too small for her body.


It's more exaggerated in that last photo (where she's in the field, head towards camera) because she'd just had a bath, so her ruff was framing her head, much like a Collie's or Sheltie's ruff would.

I do have to say that more often than not, it is not an issue of the actual SKULL part of the dog's head, but rather the muzzle...largely because the dog has a weak underjaw. The top can only match what the bottom has, and if the underjaw is narrow, so must be the top of the muzzle.


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## GSDGunner

horsegirl said:


> handsome man!


Thank you very much. Very nice of you to comment.


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## bunchoberrys

Laramies Dark Knights Raven - German Shepherd Dog

This is my friends dog Raven.:wub: Very nice boy. Before my friend went with Laramie Kennels she had gotten her dogs from Norm and Marlyn Woestman of Yubon Kennels. I've met with Marlyn a couple of times and been to her place. She had some very nice ASL dogs. I don't believe she is breeding or showing anymore tho. Too bad. She really loved the breed, had some awesome dogs.


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## Andaka

Raven and Jag are related!

Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog

Riley and Against the Wind are littermates.


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## bunchoberrys

Andaka said:


> Raven and Jag are related!
> 
> Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Riley and Against the Wind are littermates.


That is so cool!:thumbup:


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## marshies

GSDGunner said:


> I don't have any stacked photos, so I'll post a head shot. I think he looks pretty masculine to me.  But I may be just a tad biased.


SO HANDSOME! Kinda looks like my childhood heartdog! Can you PM me where your dog is from?



Xeph said:


> Also, here's a picture of my German cross male, so you can see how his set of neck is naturally lower than my American girl


Such a nice dark blanket! Can you PM me where the dog is from?


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## EastGSD

Just read through this very looong thread lol I just wanted to add that many title holders and AOEs (Award of Excellence) can be seen at the GSDCA website as well as OB /Chs, Select Chs here

http://www.gsdca.org/german-shepherd-dogs/gsd-title-holders


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## dogless

I had a dog from Yubon Kennels, her dad was Monarch and I forget who the dam was. She was a long coat, the first long coat I ever saw. She was a good dog. Unfortunately she got DM and had to be put down. I had heard I think that Norm passed away a few years ago, when I contacted someone else who was breeding with dogs sired by Monarch, just to tell them that they might carry DM. They were very nice people. 



bunchoberrys said:


> Laramies Dark Knights Raven - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> This is my friends dog Raven.:wub: Very nice boy. Before my friend went with Laramie Kennels she had gotten her dogs from Norm and Marlyn Woestman of Yubon Kennels. I've met with Marlyn a couple of times and been to her place. She had some very nice ASL dogs. I don't believe she is breeding or showing anymore tho. Too bad. She really loved the breed, had some awesome dogs.


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## ninemaplefarm

Does anyone know if there is still frozen semen for Dallas?


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