# Prey Drive and Killing Animals (Calves)



## Sadie_M (Feb 9, 2015)

Wondering if anyone has dealt with this and what they did to control it. 

I have a neutered male GSD who recently turned 2 years old. Two weeks prior to his turning 2 we suddenly lost our 4 year old GSD to GDV. Since this time period my normally very well behaved laid back dog has seemingly entered the terrible twos.

It is almost as if he has suddenly lost his mental control over his prey drive. BUT this is only when he is unattended. If you are with him all he will do is go into a deep stare down at the aninal of interest. This has never been a problem before he has spent many many afternoons lounging and playing around the farm unattended.

The problems started with simply chasing/treeing the barn cats, then he was chasing the horses (however with this we have witnessed he only chases them if they are already running as if he cannot help himself - if they are simply grazing he pays zero attention to them), and it's worsened from there.

A few weeks back we woke up one morning to find 1 of 2 bottle calves dead with neck wounds (back of the neck not the jugular) we had slight suspicion (with hopes that it wasn't him) he was the culprit.

Since then he has gotten very minimal time outside unattended as a precaution. This has been an adjustment for him as being on the farm our dogs (weather/temperature permitting) are typically outside unattended when we are home. They've always been good about staying in the house yard to play or lounging on the deck or in their pool and always leaving the farm animals alone (even the free range chickens). When we are not home at all they stay in their kennel. Otherwise they're in the house. So his last few weeks have been spent indoors, in his kennel, or directly supervised outside. This morning I let my now 2 dogs out to pee while I ran to the bathroom to do the same. When done I looked out our window to see him in the pen with a strong hold on our other calfs neck (same place as previous calfs wounds were).

So now he's been caught in the act. He was easily called off and he immediately tuck tailed it to his kennel (since a pup he has ran for his kennel whenever he has done wrong). Upon looking at this calf he was within seconds of meeting the same fate as the other calf.

The obvious resolution is that this dog will never be outside on our farm unattended again as I will never trust him. 

I do not have high hopes of training resolving this problem as when I or my husband are outside with him he does absolutely nothing wrong. He will allow the horses, cats, calves to walk right up to him and he ignores them. We go inside and leave him out there alone and the flip is switched. 

What has me floored is the sudden onset of this behavior. We got this dog at 8 weeks of age. He has grown up and been socialized with all of these animals and people. I took this dog to an exotic animal sale last summer and walked him on a loose lead heel the entire time with no problems. 

Why all of a sudden start killing things... 

Prior to all of this the most prey drive this dog has exhibited is when the other dogs are running and playing he will chase and mouth them on the back of the neck. Has always has zero interest in toys/fetch. 

For background information purposes our other dog a 3 year old blue heeler has taken no part in these bad behaviors (no pack motive/hunting is occurring). And this did not start until after we lost our older male.

Has anyone beat/controlled this drive? We had hopes when he was a pup that he could assist our heeler with working the cattle but he was always too timid. Zero interest in toys makes things difficult as well. Our heeler is a fetch fanatic so burning her energy is easy. Seems very dismal to think I can stop a behavior that he only does when he is unattended. But I would like to stop this from continuing to escalate. 

Again, he will never be left unattended outside from here on out in his life, but ideas are appreciated.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I had a dog who would kill livestock. But he would do it right in front of you. I got him to the point of being able to walk through the pastures with adult goats who didn't run from him. Got him to the point when the kids would crawl out from under a fence unexpectedly he would disregard and either come to me or wait while I got the goat.

I never left him unattended near stock for the rest of his life. He wore a basket muzzle around the stock for a few months while we worked on it and later was able to go without.

I think you are correct that your dog can never be trusted alone with livestock. We had a fenced yard so our dog only had access to the farm when we took him there. I double fenced everything so no small animals could put their heads through the fencing because I saw him considering grabbing one one day and he would have killed it through the fence no doubt.

You also owe it to your neighbors to not let your dog out loose. He needs his own fenced yard where he can be a dog with no prey animals, and you have to supervise supervise supervise. 

I wouldn't trust him not to do it in front of you honestly but it is promising you were able to call him off


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

First I am sorry for your loss of your other gsd and what you are going through... No fun. 

That being said, he has shown precursor actions that were left undisciplined and so he has gone further the hard stares is the first hint something might go away chasing moving animals "as if he can't help himself" males a close second. 

Since you know what he is capable of now, you need to redirect and funnel that prey drive into constructive actions such as nose work, Trailing/tracking and places where he can hunt without doing damage. It is a mental, emotional and physically demanding 'sport' and will help curb the bad behavior. But you also need to take direct action and keep him from doing the hard stares or chasing the animals. 

This will require proactive actions on your part.. You cannot just let it be or you will have worse behavior follow.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have limited experience with ecollars, so take this for what it's worth. I've heard others using "phantom" associations with an ecollar correction to stop things like hole digging. After the adjustment period of the dog only wearing the collar, the dog is the watched from a hidden location and is given an "act of God" correction every time the dog attempted to dig. I wonder if something similar to this could be done for your situation? With a proper trainer of course.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

E collar correction if he doesn't leave it. Hit the boost button if he takes off after an animal with a loud no. I'd practice leave it with something less stimulating first so he gets it. Hopefully you'll be able to leave him unattended in the future if he chills out. E collars work well for off lead leave it and recall. 

Or you can try a loud high pitched whistle


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think e-collar is going to be your best bet. Set him up to fail, then shock him high as soon as you see intention. Don't link the correction to you, at all. He should think you had nothing to do with it. This is happening when you are not watching, so you want him to think you were not watching when he gets the correction. This is one of those things that should only take one or two repetitions, so don't feel bad about 'hurting' him. You will need to generalize it to horses, calves, and whatever else he might chase or kill. 

If you are concerned about getting the timing or set up right, consult a knowledgeable trainer who is familiar with this use of the e-collar. 

I've done this with wildlife and it works, fast. But you have to nail him as soon as he starts the prey sequence, and at a high enough level, that it sticks. 

Another good way to think about the training is similar to snake avoidance trainers. That is another instance where the dog needs to associate the correction not with the handler's presence, but with the snake itself. For livestock, you want him to connect the correction with the start of prey sequence. You could also train avoidance of the livestock themselves, alternatively. Either way it should work. 

I hope this helps. If I lived on a farm, I'd want my dogs to be loose as well. Wonderful life for a dog.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've used the Ecollar successfully as well for a GSD who wanted to herd my horses by grabbing their hind legs.. Uh, no.. But still, I truly believe redirected energy (along with Ecollar and supervision) is an essential tool to funnel the prey drive into a constructive action versus the destructive actions already taken. But just my thoughts  (directed to OP)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Remote collar would be my approach to this problem....but like any other tool it must be utilized correctly for maximum effectiveness.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I used an e collar to deal with my killer but not the way people are describing here. He started on a leash, at distance, with stim for looking at or acknowledging livestock in any way.

After much proofing if I walked near the animals with him he would move to my other side to put me in between him and the animal.

After much more proofing I would let him off a leash around them with a basket muzzle. Much more proofing after that no muzzle, no leash.

I personally think a distance sting operation for this type of behavior is pretty risky. Maybe he learns not to kill calves maybe he doesnt. Maybe he learns not to kill calves on the side of the barn facing the house but on the other side he can still do it. Maybe he just wanders off and kills your neighbors animals.

I don't think a dog who has killed domestic animals should ever be unattended anywhere except a securely fenced yard. and OP I acknowledge you said that you intend to supervise him from here fkrward. But I am seeing other people's posts about sting operation with E collar possibly with the intention of the dog being trustworthy around livestock again, possibly by himself. I think that is unrealistic. At least I can tell you with my killer dog it was wired into him. He wanted it bad. He absolutely would have reverted if I had given him enough time alone to think about it


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing, he always possessed this potential as witnessed by his imitating this behavior when running with other dogs. With the loss of the older dog, he feels a freedom to escalate this behavior with vulnerable animals. This really should have been addressed as puppy to adolescence when it was primary a play behavior.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I used an e collar to deal with my killer but not the way people are describing here. He started on a leash, at distance, with stim for looking at or acknowledging livestock in any way.
> 
> After much proofing if I walked near the animals with him he would move to my other side to put me in between him and the animal.
> 
> ...


Some dogs can never be trustworthy again, and some can become completely broken of behavior.....depends on dog. Your ability to call him off and he tucks tail and returns to kennel tells me a lot. I had a dog with similar behavior with neck, that you could NOT call him off at all....he would only respond to physical intervention. Each dog is different, and each owner has different abilities and resources available.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There was definitely no calling my dog off once he had prey. Nothing else existed. Depending on the circumstances mine was also willing to act aggressive toward a person trying to intervene if it was dead or not.

My dog was not a fearful or submissive dog in general either, like this one sounds like.

All of that said, I still would never leave a dog unsupervised with livestock that had killed. Whether I thought it was totally cured or not. And I had no illusions that my dog was cured, he simply understood it was something he could not do with me there.

My policy is to prevent whatever is preventable. Some dogs kill for sport and will kill every baby in a pasture. I would not take that chance with my own animals or anyone else's.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Secure, completely safe containment fencing for your property is a must.

If he learns to leave your animals alone (which I hope he can), he may very well not generalize those rules to include your neighbor's animals. He might learn to leave calves alone but consider goats fair game. He might learn to identify and ignore your horses, but a stranger out for a trail ride is fair game. 

As recommended above - If you haven't used an ecollar before, I think you should enlist training help (essentially, a spotter) to help with timing. You need to identify precursor behaviors ("sticky" eye contact, freezing, crouching, stalking). If you screw up the timing you could add confusion to the existing problem. From here on out, you should correct for any precursor behaviors on any of your animals - even minor infractions like treeing barn cats. 

I would also put him up (out of sight) when your cattledog is working. No need to blur the lines - conceptually, the farm animals are *yours* and your young GSD is never allowed to interact with them.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You have to take prey drive or predatory instinct more seriously.

The stages are 

Search/Stalk, Chase, Catch, Kill, Eat



> If you are with him all he will do is go into a deep stare down at the aninal of interest. This has never been a problem before





> The problems started with simply chasing/treeing the barn cats, then he was chasing the horses (however with this we have witnessed he only chases them if they are already running ....), and it's worsened from there.


I think it started with the top quote really. The dog staring at it's prey. People don't realize it at the time but if you don;t want problems then you need to nip it in the bud.

You say


> It is almost as if he has suddenly lost his mental control over his prey drive. BUT this is only when he is unattended.


yet you have witnessed the dog going to stage 4 ie chasing, after having stared/stalked already with other animals.

Basically you need to understand the prey drive more in order to fix it. It starts with stopping the dog wanting to stare at the animals and teaching him he will be corrected if he looks at all or shows any interest.

You also need to look into satisfying these instincts through training and exercise. Could it be the dog is finding his own fun as he is being left unattended too much?

People don't realize part of teaching discipline is correcting the dog for things. Then the dog ends up learning his boundaries.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Agree with Madlab. Eye contact other than a casual moving glance was not permitted with my dog. It's the gateway drug


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

100% agree with Backpacker too.

You have a responsibility to every other owner of livestock in your vicinity to come troll your dog.

My dog had thought about the horses even. I believe he would have latched onto a leg if I hadon't ever given him the chance. So walking him in places where ppl ride was not possible


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That was supposed to say control. Not come troll. :/


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Agree with Madlab. Eye contact other than a casual moving glance was not permitted with my dog. It's the gateway drug


BINGO. Correct the stare firmly as it is the first part of the prey sequence.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I just read the OPs post again- this dog sounds really biddable, and slightly nervous, and maybe he would be one of those dogs that would respond to a couple high well timed corrections "act of God". The only other option is containment and management. 

OP, I would highly recommend finding a trainer to help you with this, it will be worth it for you and the dog to get it right the first time. I hope you can find a suitable trainer to help you hands-on. To me, it seems like this problem might be very fixable. 

Find a good trainer. That's the best advice I can give you.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I just read the OPs post again- this dog sounds really biddable, and slightly nervous, and maybe he would be one of those dogs that would respond to a couple high well timed corrections "act of God". The only other option is containment and management.
> 
> OP, I would highly recommend finding a trainer to help you with this, it will be worth it for you and the dog to get it right the first time. I hope you can find a suitable trainer to help you hands-on. To me, it seems like this problem might be very fixable.
> 
> Find a good trainer. That's the best advice I can give you.


Muskeg or anyone else with experience in using the ecollar for this purpose, can you go into detail on how to choose a trainer who is expert in the use of the collar. Other than word of mouth, researching trainers name on line or even going to watch a training session, how does one who is completely unfamiliar with it's use or even being able to identify the precursors know that the trainer is well experienced? As was said, if not done right may cause more problems.

Any answers from those who have been in her shoes and or similar situation and used the collar with trainer will probably help the op out a lot if she chooses to go this route.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The problem here is that the dog is well behaved in the presence of the owner. An Ecollar can only be so much effective. The dog has already learned to only attack when alone and the pay-off was huge. You can put him in 100s of classes, try to trick him in 'being unseen' (they are too smart to fall for that) but he will never forget this 'fun'. I would NEVER trust him on his own, no matter how well he does with an Ecollar. To me he just needs to be 100% managed in a way that he can never be alone with any animal. I am not sure if I would keep a dog like that on a farm; for my self and to prevent an issue with a neighbor and being sued. Remember that dogs tend to kill the most valuable animals when it comes to a law suit.
Deja killed and ate a baby turkey when she was out with my husband and I know it would have never happened in my presence. So, never again will she go out with him outside. One incident taught me plenty.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> Muskeg or anyone else with experience in using the ecollar for this purpose, can you go into detail on how to choose a trainer who is expert in the use of the collar. Other than word of mouth, researching trainers name on line or even going to watch a training session, how does one who is completely unfamiliar with it's use or even being able to identify the precursors know that the trainer is well experienced? As was said, if not done right may cause more problems.
> 
> Any answers from those who have been in her shoes and or similar situation and used the collar with trainer will probably help the op out a lot if she chooses to go this route.


Regardless of tool or no tool, if I were seeking help for this problem, I would go to people who've solved *this* problem:

1. People who train and work with stockdogs. 2. People who work in and around equine boarding/riding facilities. 3. Your local Ag extension service (if there is a lot of agriculture in your area, these can be an amazing network of resources - describe your problem and ask for a referral). 

People have been raising and training safe and sane farm dogs for a long time (long before e-collars). We have excellent, precise technology at our fingertips now, but it is not necessarily the only solution to every problem. If you are given honest, in-person advice to keep your dog away from the animals permanently, it'll probably be time to re-evaluate and beef up your fencing and brainstorm some alternate exercise methods. 

I hope things improve and you find a good solution for everyone at your farm.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just wanted to say you might be careful who you mention this to, as far as asking for help. Lots of counties have laws that dogs who have killed domestic animals are declared dangerous and have to keep the dog according to the dangerous dog rules, kennel with a roof, muzzle on leash ect I think is what is was in my county.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

WIBackpacker said:


> Regardless of tool or no tool, if I were seeking help for this problem, I would go to people who've solved *this* problem:
> 
> 1. People who train and work with stockdogs. 2. People who work in and around equine boarding/riding facilities. 3. Your local Ag extension service (if there is a lot of agriculture in your area, these can be an amazing network of resources - describe your problem and ask for a referral).
> 
> ...


the age old method for dealing with a dog like this was a bullet. there was no trying to re-train the dog from the bad habit. Dogs that kill livestock are a liability. Even if you train him 1000% effective to not harm YOUR livestock, many dogs will venture to other farms to continue their game.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> The problem here is that the dog is well behaved in the presence of the owner. An Ecollar can only be so much effective. The dog has already learned to only attack when alone and the pay-off was huge. You can put him in 100s of classes, try to trick him in 'being unseen' (they are too smart to fall for that) but he will never forget this 'fun'. I would NEVER trust him on his own, no matter how well he does with an Ecollar. To me he just needs to be 100% managed in a way that he can never be alone with any animal. I am not sure if I would keep a dog like that on a farm; for my self and to prevent an issue with a neighbor and being sued. Remember that dogs tend to kill the most valuable animals when it comes to a law suit.
> Deja killed and ate a baby turkey when she was out with my husband and I know it would have never happened in my presence. So, never again will she go out with him outside. One incident taught me plenty.


I have to say that your experiences in retraining/extinguishing a behavior are a lot different than mine. I have found that there are some dogs that can become reliable without presence of owner, and some that can't. I have found that there are some owners/trainers that can achieve/train this reliability and there are some that cannot. Not saying that your experiences don't justify your position, just that my experiences do not make this behavior as absolute, but rather dependent on the dog and Or owner/trainer.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As far as selecting a trainer, personally my criteria would be:

who have they trained under to learn to use the e collar?

have they successfully dealt with a dog who killed domestic animals before?

As for a dog becoming reliable without human supervision, I can't see how that would happen without a sting operation with cameras. Didn't OP say the first kills were bottle calves in the barn? The dog would know whether a human was in the barn with him so you would have to set him up with a calf as bait and a remote camera which might have a delay of a second or two and that might make the difference between success and failure. Huge factors for me would be the size of the property, how long the dog is out unattended? And again how close are your nearest neighbors because you really do have a responsibility to anyone with pets or livestock to control a dog like this. You know what he is capable of, there is no excuse for it happening again

The dog does sound like a better than average candidate to become reliable with the owners there. They could probably even achieve that without an e collar although I do think the dog should be on a leash getting a correction for looking at stock.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a well known breeder-trainer-and end user of border collies who held training classes and does yearly demonstrations at "open farms" and farm fairs right in my neighbourhood.
I have sat in on her training sessions. Got to know her as a friend .
She had border collies that went rogue and were too hard , damaging sheep , and others that went beyond and killed sheep. 
It wasn't tolerated . Dogs were not kept . 
I have a family member that took in sheep-killer border collies as pets . Not from the above mentioned person - this was long before I know them . Dog was always fixated in some prey action . 

I asked my farmer-friend who raises grass fed beef and heritage hogs about his dog experience -- same thing -- would not tolerate it . Dog would be gone . 

He has a sweet aussie cattle dog that does a great job. 

I don't know why this would appear after the passing of the older canine . Could it be that the structure for behaviour
was determined by the dog , by example , and not by the humans , and now the leadership is absent?

I would not trust retraining . If that were my situation that dog would be trained for obedience and then rehomed where he would not ever see livestock again. He could be a great pet . Farm dog? Liability.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk to keep the dog around. Had a bad experience when I tried to rehab a beautiful German show line female I rescued. She was dog-aggressive. I was able to get her to perform very well on leash, and ignore other dogs. But when she was off-leash, all bets were off as to what she'd do.

She got out of the dog yard one day when I left a gate ajar, and killed another dog. It nearly broke my heart, but I had her put down. 

Worst part of it was, as I was yelling and screaming at her over what she'd done, instead of running away, she crawled over to me on her belly, and lay with her head on my feet...:teary:


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sunsilver said:


> To me, it wouldn't be worth the risk to keep the dog around. Had a bad experience when I tried to rehab a beautiful German show line female I rescued. She was dog-aggressive. I was able to get her to perform very well on leash, and ignore other dogs. But when she was off-leash, all bets were off as to what she'd do.
> 
> She got out of the dog yard one day when I left a gate ajar, and killed another dog. It nearly broke my heart, but I had her put down.
> 
> Worst part of it was, as I was yelling and screaming at her over what she'd done, instead of running away, she crawled over to me on her belly, and lay with her head on my feet...:teary:


Dog aggressive dogs can be managed. But - there is no room for error - ever. I know. I had a DA dog for 12.5 of her 14.5 years. She was totally worth it, to me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I have to say that your experiences in retraining/extinguishing a behavior are a lot different than mine. I have found that there are some dogs that can become reliable without presence of owner, and some that can't. I have found that there are some owners/trainers that can achieve/train this reliability and there are some that cannot. Not saying that your experiences don't justify your position, just that my experiences do not make this behavior as absolute, but rather dependent on the dog and Or owner/trainer.


I would love to know and hear from you how that has been accomplished after the initial success(es) on the dog's part, given that the dog had physically access to the prey when no one was around?


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## Sadie_M (Feb 9, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your replies. All of them are appreciated. Theres not enough texting space or time in the world to provide everyone with every detail on mine and this dogs background to better explain and discuss the situation. 

He will never be left outside unattended again as he is a major liability now who will never earn my trust back even with all the training in the world; but even then the training ideas are still going to be implemented as he needs to understand the behavior is still not tolerable. (I have used an e collar; was successful in getting our heeler to stop herding our horses but I was also able to focus her attention to toys)

This is a small town my husband and everyone else around here (including my own family) comes from generations of families where a bullet is the solution to this kind of problem. Euthanasia honestly was an initial thought in our minds that morning. Rehoming to a home without prey animals was our next option and is still on the table. 

This dog is a very clingy/bonded dog his temperament has always been weaker being on the timid side (very outgoing and social with people though - I mean timid as in he is scared of lawnmowers to the point he will hide in his kennel from the moment the engine is started to when it is stopped etc etc) as well as being quite submissive (was a submissive urinater from the first day we had him - thankfully we resolved that at a young age). My point being with his temperament I fear he would not thrive in a new home. He also does not live with children so I am unsure how he would react to constant kid interaction; he has frequently been around most ages of kids multiple times and has always done very well but they don't live with him (never around his food bowl, never stepped on his tail just things I do not know how he'd handle that i certainly wouldnt want to find out on someone elses kid in the stress of a new home). 

Fortunately if he is to stay with us him being under constant supervision will be of no problem to him or I as he is clingy and wants to be where we are anyway and he's already used to being kenneled when we are not home. 

Again thank you everyone.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Just be very careful if you decide to rehome him. The new owner not having potential prey animals will only work if they know that 1000% he can't be allowed to have a chance to roam free and unsupervised. I've met many who assume that the dog is "safe" as long as the new home doesn't have livestock and the new owners are lax about keeping the dog contained because they think there is nothing that he can hurt.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I agree with Dainerra ...I would even say I just would not rehome a dog that had killed a domestic animal. You said he practiced on the cats. 

He might kill someone's small pet in a neighborhood. And what if they rehome him without proper history?

Given the sketchy rescue and the sketchy info I got on my dog I am almost certain he had killed or tried to before us but I had to find out the hard way.

OP you sound responsible and you care about your dog, I am not sorry I kept mine but it was a huge responsibility. Best of luck, it is a tough situation.


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