# Cesar Millan and Victoria Stilwell



## CyberRain (Jul 2, 2011)

Hi, guys i have been watching these reality show episodes of Cesar Millan - (Dog whisperer) and Victoria Stilwell - (Me or the Dog) 

I see that both the trainers has their different ways of training the dogs, and they all seem to work. However before the show Dog Whisperer they show this ad "do not attempt the techniques you are about to see without consulting a professional". i dont understand if they works with them why it wouldn't for us? 

Is it okay if i start training my puppy from the begining the way they teach how to train dogs? 
what are your opinions guys?! :help:


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Victoria usually deals with average cases. You can use her training methods because they're pretty hard to screw up.

Cesar Millan typically deals with 'worst case scenarios,' and if you screw up his training methods, you can really screw up your dog. You have to know what you're doing if you want to use his methods (efficiently).


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I haven't seen Victoria's show, but I do watch Cesar and he deals with a lot of dog aggression issues. The disclaimer is their way of not getting sued. Imagine this scenario: A person with no dog training knowledge watches Cesar's show and suddenly thinks they are an expert. They approach an aggressive dog using "Cesar's techniques" and get mauled. They decide to sue Cesar because his technique didn't work. This would definitely happen without the disclaimer.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Cesar Milan does not work with "average" dogs, or "troubled" dogs. He works with severly damaged dogs. Dogs with severe phobias, intense obessions, and red-zone type aggression. These dogs require different handling methods than most dogs. Trying to do what Cesar does without knowing what you are doing could get someone, including yourself, badly bitten. And, you could further damage the dog in the process. His methods are, for the most part, more intense than an undisturbed dog would need for everyday training (although solid leadership and consistency in training is always good). Victoria does all 100% positive reinforcement training (from what I've seen) -- everything is treat based. I've never seen her show anyone how to wean a dog off of the treat reward premise, but then I don't watch her very often. Most of the dogs she works with haven't reached the point that Cesar's dogs get to, although without intervention like Victoria does they could easily get there. The difference in my mind is like comparing "John & Kate plus 8" raising their challenging family situation with "World's Strictests Parents" where foster-type families take in deeply troubled teenagers and attempt to help them.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Cesar Milan is extremely confrontational and well...aggressive towards dogs he works with. Attempting that at home could very well get you bitten Or youcould end up injuring the dog. I would not suggest you start off training a puppy using such confrontational methods, it will not led to a good relationahip between you and your dog.


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## Chrissy_GSD (Jul 3, 2011)

I agree with what people have previously said. Also, Victoria's show is almost like training dogs for dummies. You can tell from the cases on the show that she deals with minor behavioural issues that have resulted on the part of the owner, usually in laziness in keeping the dog in line. 
I like the techniques that Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels uses. Leerburg videos are available on youtube


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Those shows are also edited to NOT show what may be going on behind the scenes. 


If you want to train your pup without going to a group type situation look at Michael Ellis's video clips. Scroll down for the free clips:
Leerburg On Demand | The Best Source of Free Dog Training Videos On the Web
This site is great for renting videos, too:
BowWowFlix.com: Dog DVD Rentals | Dog Training Dvd | Dog Dvds | Rent Dog Videos
I would still go with group lessons with a good training club to start, especially if you haven't trained a pup before.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Those shows are also edited to NOT show what may be going on behind the scenes.
> 
> 
> If you want to train your pup without going to a group type situation look at Michael Ellis's video clips. Scroll down for the free clips:
> ...


Gets my vote.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

i LOVE cesar milan. but he is special at what he does and it's a show on TV-it's meant to watch not do. I've read all his books-he's so amazing!

i like victoria too-she does basic obedience. 

but i love the videos on leerburg too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lots of previous discussions on Cesar and Victoria that you can read on these threads:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/141626-ceaser-victoria-stillwell-o-o.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...how-much-influence-do-dog-shows-have-you.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/91450-reflections-cesar-milan.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../104330-dog-whisperer-victoria-stillwell.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../99942-me-dog-victoria-stilwell-thoughts.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/100098-cesar-millan.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/98506-cesar-milan.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/96381-cesar-millan.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/95158-its-me-dog.html


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

moving to training


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## CyberRain (Jul 2, 2011)

Well for most of you dog owners, what is better
is to be the pack leader?
or the friend of the dog?

which one works better?

from what i can understand cesar works on how to b a pack leader, and claim territory.
and victoria works more towards being friendly with the dog.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

fuzzybunny said:


> Imagine this scenario: A person with no dog training knowledge watches Cesar's show and suddenly thinks they are an expert. They approach an aggressive dog using "Cesar's techniques" and get mauled. They decide to sue Cesar because his technique didn't work. This would definitely happen without the disclaimer.


And there really ARE seriously clueless people out there who think they are instant experts after watching a show. (Kinda like people who get "certified" to groom or train by taking an online correspondence course, YIKES.)

I had my youngster out at the local shopping center and we were working on some very basic obedience with distractions. A guy approached and asked to see Bunny, and I said sure. Why not, she loves people, even idiots. He asked me what we were doing and I said we were just there doing basic obedience and for socialization....and OF COURSE he asks if I've ever watched The Dog Whisperer. While he was talking I offered Bunny the leash to tug on, and we stood there tugging while he expounded on his thoughts on dog training in general. 

I'm not rude, I just let him talk, and kept tugging with Bunny who was ignoring the guy. And that was fine until he noticed that Bunny had the leash in her mouth and was bouncing around in front of me. At that point he said "OH I know how to stop that" and he goes to grab my leash! I think I growled at him , then told Bunny to platz and quickly moved the lead out of his reach. I mean are you KIDDING ME? What idiot tries to take a German Shepherd's lead out of the handler's hands?! In any case I must have scared him, he backed off pretty quickly. Bunny wouldn't have done anything to him, but I've had dogs that would have given him a warning he'd not soon forget.

Yup, they're out there......

(Never mind the dog, Beware of OWNER!)


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

CyberRain said:


> Well for most of you dog owners, what is better
> is to be the pack leader?
> or the friend of the dog?
> 
> ...


Do you want to lead the dance, or do you want to be lead? It's either one or the other. With most dogs you don't have to get physical in order to be the leader.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

CyberRain said:


> Well for most of you dog owners, what is better
> is to be the pack leader?
> or the friend of the dog?
> 
> ...


I disagree with your characterization of both Cesar and Victoria, but in any case, here are some sticky threads with GREAT information about being a good leader:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ant-understand-become-better-pack-leader.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/89990-how-do-you-define-being-alpha.html

You don't need to dominate your dog to be the leader of the pack, and not using physical force in training doesn't mean you're wimpy or just "being friendly" with your dog either. Read these previous discussions and see what you think.


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## Mom2Shaman (Jun 17, 2011)

I have always thought of using the parenting method. Leadership through high expectations with instruction, repetition, and correction; praise for expectations achieved; a widening base of experiences and expectations as the dog matures; and unconditional love throughout. Yes, I am the pack leader tempered with having a loving relationship with the animal. It's a combination of Cesar and Victoria, actually. I always felt dog training should feel natural, like parenting, and not be some forced mode I had to transition into to deal with my animal. I am known for having solid, loving, well-behaved, and widely experienced companion animals.

This even worked with my short-circuited alpha with accomodations for things she simply could not handle that would short-circuit her (startle awake was the big one). However, on her case and mine it was mutual respect rather than love though she flat-out loved my husband.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I looked up the OP's previous threads to see how old the puppy in question is, and she doesn't have a puppy yet, she's planning on getting one in around 8 months. Good for you for doing your homework and thinking about training methods in advance! 

This is where I would start - click on Training Textbook at the top of the page: Dog Star Daily

Dr. Ian Dunbar is a veterinary behaviorist who virtually invented the concept of classes for very young puppies, back in the 80's. Prior to that, most obedience classes were for dogs over 6 months old. He has a very good book called After You Get Your Puppy, that's now available as a free digital download on the Dogstar Daily website:

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER You Get Your Puppy.pdf

This was the textbook for the Sirius Puppy classes (founded by Dr. Dunbar) that I took with Dena, Keefer, and Halo. 



> This book explains how to easily housetrain and socialize your puppy, starting from Day One. It covers: crate training, housesoiling, destructive chewing, socialization, preventing aggression, bite inhibition, on-leash walking, recalls, preventing adolescent problems and the importance of an off-leash puppy socialization and training class.


That should get you started. The reason for the disclaimer on the Dog Whisperer show is that some of the methods that Cesar uses should not be tried by inexperienced people, and can actually be dangerous if done with the wrong dog. If you've been watching the show for awhile you'll notice that he's been bit before and nearly bit many times. And you should realize that Cesar reads dogs much better than the average pet dog owner, so he's going to be much more aware of when a dog is at the point where it might bite, and yet it still happens.

Many of the behavior problems he deals with would not have existed if the owners had trained their dogs properly from the very beginning, using motivational, positive reinforcement methods, providing rules and structure, and clear and consistent boundaries and expectations from the time they got the dog, such as what Victoria Stillwell advocates. By the time they seek help, the situation is usually totally out of control. 

Positive does not mean permissive, it means you manage the dog's environment to maximize his opportunities to succeed and minimize his opportunities to practice bad behavior. What is reinforced and rewarded will increase, and that is how you shape the behavior you want. That does not mean that force will never be needed, or that aversives are not sometimes necessary, what it means is that rather than teaching your puppy to obey "or else", because he fears you, you teach him to WANT to obey you because it's fun, rewarding, and earns him access to the things he values.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

CyberRain said:


> Well for most of you dog owners, what is better
> is to be the pack leader?
> or the friend of the dog?
> 
> ...


For me, neither, I'm the owner.

I like and dislike bits and pieces of both trainers. I dislike Cesar's use of flooding and his "one size fits all" approach to "training" dogs (which is more like forcing them - either physically or psychologically) to submit to him. I dislike head halters and that is Victoria's tool of choice.

If you don't have a dog yet, then none of this should matter that much because ideally you wouldn't let your dog develop such bad behaviors as demonstrated on these shows.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> For me, neither, I'm the owner.
> 
> I like and dislike bits and pieces of both trainers. I dislike Cesar's use of flooding and his "one size fits all" approach to "training" dogs (which is more like forcing them - either physically or psychologically) to submit to him. I dislike head halters and that is Victoria's tool of choice.
> 
> If you don't have a dog yet, then none of this should matter that much because ideally you wouldn't let your dog develop such bad behaviors as demonstrated on these shows.


I agree with Lies's post. I will add that you should spend this time finding a good trainer who runs a good puppy class, basic obedience/household manners type classes, advanced classes -- they should be positive, especially the puppy class, but the trainer should be aware of various tools and have a somewhat open mind. For example, she should not require the use of a choke chain or prong collar and nothing else. (Puppy class should be a flat collar or martingale.)

Many of us who go to training classes have the t-shirt many times over. We take this dog because this dog benefits from working with us under a trainer in amongst other dogs and owners, even if we ourselves know all the lessons by heart. (Not that everyone in puppy or basic will have lots of experience.)

If you take your pup to puppy classes, basic, advanced, and then CGC -- each of these classes are about 6 -8 weeks, your puppy will be 34 weeks or more old -- I often repeat basic or advanced so the pup has a better grasp on the main concepts. By the time these classes are over, the chances are your dog does not have ANY of the behaviors that Cesar and Victoria are dealing with.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

They both make for good television and ratings......"life & reality" is not so cookie cutter and predictable.
Entertaining yes!...with pieces of "fact", touched off with some common sense.....


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## CyberRain (Jul 2, 2011)

yea i get it now, thanks for all the information guys  if i didn't spoke to you guys i would probably just start training my puppy in cesars method from beginning! and mess up big time lol 

Selzer - those classes seem to be a good idea i'm going to try to find some of these classes in Toronto, and thanks for the info! 

Cassidy's Mom - thanks for the suggested books, and the links i'm going to read them.


i guess only thing i'm afraid of is if the dog ever bites! because from what i heard if you get bite by a dog most of the times they want the dog down? and that you need 40 injections! i don't really know if that's truth or not, but dont want see it happen!
maybe someone who ever got bite could tell me something about it?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I watch both Cesar and Victoria.

I prefer Victoria's positive training methods. I really like that she makes everyone in the household get on board with the training of their dog, I also like that she takes the time to educate the owners that want to breed their dogs. I like that she takes them to shelters to show them all the dogs that are there because of irresponsible owners. I like that she makes exercise the #1 priority and I like that she tries to get the owners involved in some kind of sport with their dog like dock diving, agility or search work. She's also not afraid to tell a owner how she feels, she tells them what they are doing wrong and why the dog is behaving the way that it is. I like that she speaks her mind and tells it like it is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CyberRain said:


> yea i get it now, thanks for all the information guys  if i didn't spoke to you guys i would probably just start training my puppy in cesars method from beginning! and mess up big time lol
> 
> Selzer - those classes seem to be a good idea i'm going to try to find some of these classes in Toronto, and thanks for the info!
> 
> ...


You must be thinking of a dog without rabies vax records, you have to go thru a series of shots if you get bit, and the dog has no proof of vax.
If you get your pup from a good breeder with good lines/temperament you should have no problem training your GSD. Puppies do bite, they learn bite inhibition from littermates, but are still pretty oral, so keeping lots of toys/chews available will keep their mouth occupied so they aren't trying to chew on you.
I had two pups, and neither of them were the landsharks I read about, they always had a toy in their mouth instead!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I like Victoria for the most part. I don't agree with everything she does. Like, she is adamantly against choke and prong collars, but to be fair most of the people she deals with that are using them are using them incorrectly...so I guess I can kind of see where she's probably having to come from. I've tried a few of her methods, and Sasha picked up on them fairly quickly.

Cesar is a totally different story. I watched his show for the first time the other day, and I couldn't stand him. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but he rubbed me totally the wrong way, and I didn't love his methods.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

CyberRain said:


> i guess only thing i'm afraid of is if the dog ever bites! because from what i heard if you get bite by a dog most of the times they want the dog down? and that you need 40 injections! i don't really know if that's truth or not, but dont want see it happen!
> maybe someone who ever got bite could tell me something about it?


Jane is right - all puppies bite. It's how they play with their littermates and how they learn about the world. It's up to us to teach them that it's not acceptable to put their mouth on skin. 

There's a sticky thread in one of the puppy forums with lots of info on teaching bite inhibition, and the Dogstar Daily website and Ian Dunbar's book that I linked to are also great resources. Bite inhibition is one thing he really stresses and also the importance of socialization. The more positive experiences a puppy has with new people/places/things, the more confident s/he will be and the better able to recognize the difference between benign situations and threatening ones. 

You're more likely to have problems with biting if you've got a fearful dog who is not genetically sound, than one with a solid temperament from a good breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In Canada it would be CGN classes rather than CGC. Getting a CGN is a great goal. Start with puppy classes, and basic. All of it will help you get the CGN. The CGN, Canine Good Neighbor program is similar to our Canine Good Citizen program in the AKC. 

Since I know more about that, I will tell about that, and others can fill in the differences of the CGN.

There are ten basic tests, and if your dog can manage them without serious reactions, you can feel pretty confident that your dog will NEVER be the kind of dog Cesar deals with and most likely will never have the problems that Victoria helps out with. 

They are not particularly hard, and they make sense for anyone really, unless you are specifically training for something other, like a BH/Schutzhund or police work. (The BH is similar but has a lot more basic obedience, gun shots, etc.) The tests for CGC include:

1. Meet and Greet, a friendly stranger walks up to you and says hello, maybe shakes your hand, the dog stands or sits at your side and does not menace or jump on the person in a friendly manner. PASS

2. Sit For Petting. A friendly stranger approaches and asks if they may pet your dog. After you approve, they pet the chest and head of the dog. The dog does not act shyly or menacingly. PASS.

3. Sit For Exam/Grooming. The friendly stranger now checks both ears and both front paws, runs a brush down the back. Dog does not menace the person or freak out. PASS.

4. SIT and DOWN. You can demonstrate without bribery or force that the dog understands a command for SIT, and a command for DOWN. PASS

5. STAY and COME. On a long line, you tell the dog to sit or down, then STAY, you walk twenty feet away, turn and come back, dog stays. You then tell them to stay again, and walk ten feet away and call the dog, it comes. PASS. 

6. Loose lead walking. Demonstrate that the dog can walk, follow you through turns and halt without dragging you to your destination. Perfect heel position would not hurt but is not required. PASS.

7. Walking through a crowd. You walk with the dog while a number of people mill around. (We call them the Millers.) The dog remains under control and does not freak our or eat anyone. PASS. 

8. Visual and Audio distractions. The dog is sitting by you, and a person jogs by, or someone uses a wheel chair or walker, dog may be interested, but cannot lunge or freak out. A noise like a door slamming or pots being clashed together, the dog can register that a noise happened, but he should not lose his marbles. PASS.

9. Meet and greet a person who has a dog. Usually this is where we walk toward each other with the dogs on the outside. We stop opposite of each other and tell our dogs to sit. We exchange pleasantries and move on. I have had the crazy lady with the Giant Snauzer just approach me and sit her dog while my dog remained sitting by my side. If the lady COULD sit her dog, that might have worked. SHE was the examiner. Anyhow, the dogs do not pull across the owner to get to the other dog. PASS. 

10. Supervised Separation. This is where you pass the lead to a stranger and leave the room for three minutes. Normally, I tell the dog to sit or down and stay. The dog does not need to remain in position, but the dog may not rip the person out of her chair and into the other room where you are. the dog may whine a little, but cannot be completely distressed or prolonged insanity. PASS.

With a couple of positive puppy classes and going right into some basic classes, and then some CGN classes where they actually practice the different steps, there should be no problem passing the CGN, and a dog that pass the CGN demonstrates that the dog has been trained to a basic level, and socialized to a basic level, which makes them highly unlikely to ever require major work by the big dogs. 

A dog with a CGC or a CGN may still bite someone. If you take your CGN dog and put him on a chain in the back yard and do nothing more than feed him for 5 years, I think it is safe to say the dog might act inappropriately given the opportunity. But most of the people who gain these certifications with their dog, feel happy and confident to continue to take the well-mannered dog into public and in with the family, and they are probably far less likely to bite than any dog without training. They are still dogs and if they are in pain, or feel seriously threatened, they can bite. The difference is a dog with no socialization may feel seriously threatened by a child in a stroller, a man in a wheel chair, a person with an umbrella. 

Good luck with your pup. Anyone who can provide the differences with the CGN program?


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## LoboNic (Oct 2, 2013)

*Cesar ! Cesar ! Cesar !*

CESAR! Only Cesar's way! I've had 6 dogs in my life, variating between a Doberman, a Patterdale Terrier, a Hungarian Shepherd (Pumi), a Tibetan Terrier and a wolf dog (hybrid between a wolf and a Greenland Husky). All of them have received the methods and training by me with Cesar's way. All of them have behaved perfectly.

Victoria's methods are RIDICULOUS!! First of all. ITS A DOG! A DOG, D-O-G. So it acts like dogs do and there Cesar is right. Their behavior come from wolves behavior. That doesn't mean that they act like dogs, but most of their way of behaving relate to what wolves do. The only difference is A HUMAN!

If you make a dog control the environment like an alpha dog would, they will play you. So when u just give them treats or toys trying to control a situation it doesn't really help the situation, it just takes their attention to something else.. FOR THAT MOMENT and at some point it doesn't work anymore. In comparison to when you actually deal with the problem without any treats or toys and just go hands on to the problem it actually will help in the long run. Not all dogs reply to treats and toys.. couldn't do that with mine.. he'd be just looking at me and wondering what the **** I'm doing and turning back to (for example) the dog on the other side of the street. Although I don't have that problem, since he doesn't act out.

Most of the dogs I've seen on V's show don't get enough exercise and don't get disciplined as much as they should. Isn't it obvious that if a dog pulls on the leash its kinda IN CONTROL!!! so maybe then you should focus on the fact that you should be in control and NOT THE DOG!

Victoria is just joke to me! Sorry!


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## LoboNic (Oct 2, 2013)

*Cesar cesar cesar!!!!!*

CESAR! Only Cesar's way! I've had 6 dogs in my life, variating between a Doberman, a Patterdale Terrier, a Hungarian Shepherd (Pumi), a Tibetan Terrier and a wolf dog (hybrid between a wolf and a Greenland Husky). All of them have received the methods and training by me with Cesar's way. All of them have behaved perfectly.

Victoria's methods are RIDICULOUS!! First of all. ITS A DOG! A DOG, D-O-G. So it acts like dogs do and there Cesar is right. Their behavior come from wolves behavior. That doesn't mean that they act like dogs, but most of their way of behaving relate to what wolves do. The only difference is A HUMAN!

If you make a dog control the environment like an alpha dog would, they will play you. So when u just give them treats or toys trying to control a situation it doesn't really help the situation, it just takes their attention to something else.. FOR THAT MOMENT and at some point it doesn't work anymore. In comparison to when you actually deal with the problem without any treats or toys and just go hands on to the problem it actually will help in the long run. Not all dogs reply to treats and toys.. couldn't do that with mine.. he'd be just looking at me and wondering what the **** I'm doing and turning back to (for example) the dog on the other side of the street. Although I don't have that problem, since he doesn't act out.

Most of the dogs I've seen on V's show don't get enough exercise and don't get disciplined as much as they should. Isn't it obvious that if a dog pulls on the leash its kinda IN CONTROL!!! so maybe then you should focus on the fact that you should be in control and NOT THE DOG!

Victoria is just joke to me! Sorry!


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

ugh don't revive 3 year old threads!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I like Cesar, find V Stillwell makes very easy to handle cases much more complicated then they need to be.

Cesars methods are not as easy to duplicate..then again his cases arent easy either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think Cesar makes some of his cases more trouble than they need to be. 

I think he pushes some dogs to bite when they might have never bitten. 

I think he is old school, and while his methods are successful in many cases (not all), I think that once could get there on other roads. 

If Victoria Stillwell and Cesar Millan were at the same event offering presentations at the same time, I would go to Victorias. I have seen enough of Cesar's methods, and enough people trying (and failing) to duplicating his methods, and I have seen the results (not pretty). 

I have also seen people use extreme permisiveness with dogs to no great effect and this is NOT what GS encourages. But whatever. She just isn't big enough around here for people to even try her methods. CM speaks their language, and they are oh so quick to jump on it, with their puppies.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think Cesar makes some of his cases more trouble than they need to be.
> 
> I think he pushes some dogs to bite when they might have never bitten.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of this.


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