# Interesting Assessment by Stonie Dennis



## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Dennis assesses a fresh import dog and compares to one of his trained dogs. As far as I understand, the imported dog is a protection trained dog. I'd be interested in the PPD folks' impression on the import, and how common this might be. I've seen other online videos talk about retraining sports dogs to different hold/bark distances, etc.. when moving to protection work. Maybe the guy was sent a sports trained dog by mistake?


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

The malinois clearly has only been trained on a bite sleeve, more in a sport sort of way.
All he needs is some scenario training and I think he will be fine.
I think the video really shows that it really is a case of buyer beware when sellers market high dollar finished personal protection dogs.
A really good retriever trial competitor/trainer once told me that dogs see pictures. It's like their brain is a rolodex; if that picture you present to the dog isn't in the rolodex the dog won't recognize what to do.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks Jorski. That's what I was wondering. Richard Heinz has a video where he invades his client's back yard, to test his imported GS. Both dogs basically stress and evade him though the client had apparently spent a fortune to acquire them. .


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Jorski said:


> The malinois clearly has only been trained on a bite sleeve, more in a sport sort of way.
> All he needs is some scenario training and I think he will be fine.
> I think the video really shows that it really is a case of buyer beware when sellers market high dollar finished personal protection dogs.
> A really good retriever trial competitor/trainer once told me that dogs see pictures. It's like their brain is a rolodex; if that picture you present to the dog isn't in the rolodex the dog won't recognize what to do.


That’s a very interesting way to think of a dog’s ability to process a situation. Thanks for passing it along.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> That’s a very interesting way to think of a dog’s ability to process a situation. Thanks for passing it along.


That was not lost on me either - thanks. I need all the training help I can get.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Judging by how tight he tucks his tail, I'm thinking he see's a lot of ghosts in pictures.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I wouldn't want that dog as a protection dog based on the noise sensitivity. He has definitely done some bite work and training, but it looks to be very basic. It does appear to be more sport oriented. My problem with the ppd world is there is no set way people want the dog to act. Different people train and want their dogs to do different things. I definitely wouldn't want my dog cowering, and I don't think anyone would. I wouldn't want my dog to alert on someone for walking up to me either. The two things I would want in a situation like this is for my dog to bite someone who approached me and made a sudden direct move towards me. I would also want the dog to bite on command. Obviously I need the dog to be willing to do both of those things without equipment. I find it telling that none of those bites were on hidden equipment or anything that shows the dogs would engage without equipment. I assume Stonnie's dog was only biting the sleeve for comparisons sake. I wouldn't make that assumption if I was looking to buy the dog. I'm not a fan of the scenario either. I wouldn't expect someone with a gun to approach that closely and risk getting bite by the dog. I would expect them to draw down on the target from farther away. I would also expect them to give up if the dog responded the way Stonnie's did unless it was targeted. If it was targeted, I would expect them to shoot the dog, or attempt to anyway. As for that catch on the long bite, you should always watch what the helper's feet are doing on those. Catching flat footed like that will get you put on your behind. That's from personal experience. I'd show you my first time but I don't think it's on video.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Jorski said:


> A really good retriever trial competitor/trainer once told me that dogs see pictures. It's like their brain is a rolodex; if that picture you present to the dog isn't in the rolodex the dog won't recognize what to do.


partially.
they do have the ability to piece together several “pictures” as well...
for example, i train guide dogs and a common target for them is finding a place for their handler to sit using the command “chair”. most often they’re trained using a standard chair, however by putting the sessions in context (having a seat in the chair), said dog can then, using the same command, seek out a couch, bench, ottoman, empty spot on a bus, etc, because they’re simply looking for something that makes sense to them in order to carry out the command.

anyway, off topic...


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Interesting video. I've only observed protection work, decades ago, but, the trainer, once the dogs being trained, by their owners, under his guidance, the trainer would arrange a 'surprise' meet up. Trainer and dog owner would arrange a time and place, where a 'bad guy' would 'attack' the owner, while walking the dog. Trainer, at times during training, would also wear 2 sleeves, let the dog have one, then if the dog started playing with the sleeve, and ignoring the bad guy, the trainer would come after the dog, teaching the dog that the dog needed to focus on the 'bad guy', and not to be 'Sleeve happy'. Interesting that an expensive 'trained' dog, would react like the one in the video.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

A civil dog is the name of the game in PP etc.......but can be a liability as well.


SuperG


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Just going to throw this out there, stonnie is great for many things, but I have not been overly impressed by the protection videos I’ve seen. Balabanov did an interview on protection dogs, much better info there 


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Mehh... what sets the second dog apart from the dozens of people-reactive dogs that need remedial obedience classes in order to even make them livable? There's no way you would even be able to go anywhere with that dog in public. The only place it might be useful is if you lived in a farm in the middle of nowhere and wanted it to protect your home.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

violetmd said:


> Mehh... what sets the second dog apart from the dozens of people-reactive dogs that need remedial obedience classes in order to even make them livable? There's no way you would even be able to go anywhere with that dog in public. The only place it might be useful is if you lived in a farm in the middle of nowhere and wanted it to protect your home.


But he seems to think that dog is more useful. I disagree. I think the first needs an alert command and equipment fixation drills to make him man oriented instead of equipment oriented. Is he the right dog for that?..can’t tell from the video


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

That dog is uncomfortable from the start. Yawning. Trail tucked. Avoidance at the sound of the gun being racked.

He still uncomfortable at the beginning of the second scenario until he's in drive.

He's fine once he's in his element.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

violetmd said:


> Mehh... what sets the second dog apart from the dozens of people-reactive dogs that need remedial obedience classes in order to even make them livable? There's no way you would even be able to go anywhere with that dog in public. The only place it might be useful is if you lived in a farm in the middle of nowhere and wanted it to protect your home.


You only see a snapshot there. The guy is acting suspicious. Just because the dog reacts in that situation doesn't mean he can't walk down a sidewalk in a relaxed manner.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

David Winners said:


> You only see a snapshot there. The guy is acting suspicious. Just because the dog reacts in that situation doesn't mean he can't walk down a sidewalk in a relaxed manner.


I personally don't think the guy looks suspicious. He's even smiling. He's walking up in broad daylight. Stonnie is on scene and not reacting fearfully to the guy. 

I have men run up from behind me just to ask if I have an extra poop bag because they ran out. I've had a >6ft guy stop beside me silently, at night, waiting for my dog to stop sniffing and to notice him and play with her. If my dog reacted and bit based on the above video, I would be racking up $$$ of legal fees on every walk we take. 

If the dog started reacting when a pistol is drawn that is different. But I would not want a dog with a hairline trigger who is also "trained to bite".


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm still trying to sort out all this stuff, but can somebody explain to me please the purpose of training a Personal Protection dog to chase someone? 
I liked the second dog, the first one I'd be demanding a refund on. But I don't understand that chasing thing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would never send a PPD on a long bite. That is a lost law suit from the get go. A PPD should be locked to you in a tactical/contact heel unless there is physical contact or a command to bite.

I disagree with the scenario in the video because the handler of the import dog didn't do anything to help the dog. A bewaken or blaf command would put the dog in watch. It's a team effort and the handler didn't explain the situation to the dog.

George is helping the dog. Much different reaction from the handler.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm still trying to sort out all this stuff, but can somebody explain to me please the purpose of training a Personal Protection dog to chase someone?
> I liked the second dog, the first one I'd be demanding a refund on. But I don't understand that chasing thing.


I didn’t like either 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I would never send a PPD on a long bite. That is a lost law suit from the get go. A PPD should be locked to you in a tactical/contact heel unless there is physical contact or a command to bite.
> 
> I disagree with the scenario in the video because the handler of the import dog didn't do anything to help the dog. A bewaken or blaf command would put the dog in watch. It's a team effort and the handler didn't explain the situation to the dog.
> 
> George is helping the dog. Much different reaction from the handler.


For me it is that my dog is of no value to me if it is half a football field away, never mind the lawsuit. Lol.
Our dogs were actually trained to let go if an attacker pulled back away from the handler. The basis of their training was never, ever, leave your handler. We couldn't have sent them if we wanted to!

I can see the second handler cuing the dog, and that's fine. It's still a big barky dog. But the first handler looked like he had never handled a dog.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I definitely appreciate the insight here. Not doing either sport or PPD work, but I am shaping an active dog, so the potential for breakdown is always on my mind.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

David Winners said:


> That dog is uncomfortable from the start. Yawning. Trail tucked. Avoidance at the sound of the gun being racked.
> 
> He still uncomfortable at the beginning of the second scenario until he's in drive.
> 
> He's fine once he's in his element.


I'll show my usual naivete here David, but my thought was, 'Ok, if the dog only reacts to a cue like a sleeve, is he a liability in public if someone walks past him with a similar object'? .


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Most "protection" training is offensive in nature. A police or military dog is an offensive tool most of the time. Most sport training is offensive aside from the defense of handler, which is typically an anticipated routine.

This is where a lot of PPD training falls short. They train normally. They go through the things that they have always trained. A PPD is an entirely different mindset for the dog and handler than any other venue. I think the most important quality in a PPD is nerves. They need to handle day to day life without stress. They can't spend their time just looking for someone to bite.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Rionel said:


> I'll show my usual naivete here David, but my thought was, 'Ok, if the dog only reacts to a cue like a sleeve, is he a liability in public if someone walks past him with a similar object'? .


A dog in public is always a liability. 

The likelihood of a dog mistaking a person in public for a decoy on the field is unlikely unless the dog has been training in civil scenarios. It really depends on the dog as well. Some dogs are very equipment oriented. Some dogs want to fight everyone. 

Training a dog to bite a static decoy, or a decoy not acting like decoys normally act, can be challenging. Training a dog to bite a guy in gym shorts that is sitting calmly in a bush brushing his hair is even more challenging.

I guess what my rambling is trying to convey is that it depends on the dog, the training, the situation, the handler, the guy and possibly the location of the moon.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I guess what my rambling is trying to convey is that it depends on the dog, the training, the situation, the handler, the guy and possibly the location of the moon.


Not rambling - every word appreciated.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

violetmd said:


> I personally don't think the guy looks suspicious. He's even smiling. He's walking up in broad daylight. Stonnie is on scene and not reacting fearfully to the guy.
> 
> I have men run up from behind me just to ask if I have an extra poop bag because they ran out. I've had a >6ft guy stop beside me silently, at night, waiting for my dog to stop sniffing and to notice him and play with her. If my dog reacted and bit based on the above video, I would be racking up $$$ of legal fees on every walk we take.
> 
> If the dog started reacting when a pistol is drawn that is different. But I would not want a dog with a hairline trigger who is also "trained to bite".


You're not wrong, neither dog is anything I find impressive and I don't think bite work is that guys wheelhouse, but what David is saying basically address's what you're concerned about. All I would ever consider wanting is a dog that I control his reaction, like with the watch command. If I can't direct it, I don't want it.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

For my particular dog, I have to work more from the supression side. She's not reactive towards people, but foward, and suspicious. She has high prey/possession drives to boot. At 11 mos, she broke on a jogger that had the misfortune of rounding a corner on us - putting my dog on the end of her lead and very civil. In all other scenarios, people can come up and talk face to face and she remains on a down/stay. But, recently, I had to meet police at the ballpark after finding a poached dear (_same park where a week earlier there had been a dead person found_) and she did break her down and step forward to the officers. I corrected immediately and she went back into down for the remainder of the discussion, but the eyes were never off the officers. Talk about nervous. Again, I continue to work her at shopping centers, parks etc.. to hopefully keep her adapted to distractions.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> You're not wrong, neither dog is anything I find impressive and I don't think bite work is that guys wheelhouse, but what David is saying basically address's what you're concerned about. All I would ever consider wanting is a dog that I control his reaction, like with the watch command. If I can't direct it, I don't want it.


Exactly. 

No one should ever expect a PPD to be on auto pilot, making decisions independent of the handler. My idea of a perfect PPD is a high threshold dog with a lot of importance placed on impulse control and obedience throughout training. 

A potential problem with importing a green dog for PPD purposes is that the foundation they receive is the opposite of impulse control. I'm not saying you can't implement an acceptable amount of control later in training, but it really shakes things up for the dog and could create some conflict and frustration.

While a good police dog and a good PPD may be very similar genetically, their training and deployment should look very different.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Rionel said:


> For my particular dog, I have to work more from the supression side. She's not reactive towards people, but foward, and suspicious. She has high prey/possession drives to boot. At 11 mos, she broke on a jogger that had the misfortune of rounding a corner on us - putting my dog on the end of her lead and very civil. In all other scenarios, people can come up and talk face to face and she remains on a down/stay. But, recently, I had to meet police at the ballpark after finding a poached dear (_same park where a week earlier there had been a dead person found_) and she did break her down and step forward to the officers. I corrected immediately and she went back into down for the remainder of the discussion, but the eyes were never off the officers. Talk about nervous. Again, I continue to work her at shopping centers, parks etc.. to hopefully keep her adapted to distractions.


Better discernment and confidence in the handler will happen over time with consistent training and exposure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Exactly.
> 
> No one should ever expect a PPD to be on auto pilot, making decisions independent of the handler. My idea of a perfect PPD is a high threshold dog with a lot of importance placed on impulse control and obedience throughout training.
> 
> ...


I had a bit of a different experience, in the independent thought department. Due to the nature of my work our dogs needed to be able to act on their own. In certain settings it was imperative. 
For example, Sabi would only hold a long stay as long as no person came between us. In that event she would break the stay and come to defense position at my side-loosely a heel position. An approach from behind would give the dog permission to break heel and alert/warn/bite depending on the situation.
I have said before that only dogs of exceptional character qualify for this type of training.
Neither of the dogs shown in the video impressed me to that level.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That guy got ripped off which is not uncommon unless you have a trustworthy relationship with the exporter. Plus, he clearly didn’t ask to see any of the right type of scenarios on video before purchasing the dog.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

@Chip Blasiole 
I think that was really the point of the video.
As you have pointed out many times there is a big difference when the scenario changes or the pressure on the dog changes.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I didn’t like either
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same, neither of the dogs are desirable. Granted, this is a tiny snapshot in the lives of these dogs. But just judging from these videos I wouldnt want either of them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I just watched a little bit of it. Surprised the guy would allow himself to be videoed showing how naive he was.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I just watched a little bit of it. Surprised the guy would allow himself to be videoed showing how naive he was.


Ditto. I would not let anyone showcase my dog like this. There can be reasons why he shows a bit of noise sensitivity. 

I hate videos like these. They are trying to make a point at the expense of the dog! 😑


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Tikkie said:


> Ditto. I would not let anyone showcase my dog like this. There can be reasons why he shows a bit of noise sensitivity.
> 
> I hate videos like these. They are trying to make a point at the expense of the dog! 😑


I doubt this guy really realized what was happening.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It starts out with the guy saying the man who purchased the dog is his buddy.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Tikkie said:


> Ditto. I would not let anyone showcase my dog like this. There can be reasons why he shows a bit of noise sensitivity.
> 
> I hate videos like these. They are trying to make a point at the expense of the dog! 😑


I agree! Dogs are evolved from wolves and a wolf that didn't startle/run at the sound of a gun would've been removed from the gene pool. The 1st dog clearly wasn't trained/conditioned around the pistol. His reaction is normal/understandable. Yeah he probably isn't an ideal PPD but I think he'd be a cute pet. The 2nd dog I would never be able to take... way above my skill level as an average pet owner.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

violetmd said:


> I agree! Dogs are evolved from wolves and a wolf that didn't startle/run at the sound of a gun would've been removed from the gene pool. The 1st dog clearly wasn't trained/conditioned around the pistol. His reaction is normal/understandable. Yeah he probably isn't an ideal PPD but I think he'd be a cute pet. The 2nd dog I would never be able to take... way above my skill level as an average pet owner.


I honestly don’t think there’s a lot of difference in these dogs based on this video. As for sound sensitivity, no German shepherd it working dog should have it. Especially from a gun slide racking. Fear response is the worst case scenario. It doesn’t take desensitization with a good dog. That reaction isn’t normal in working dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

violetmd said:


> I agree! Dogs are evolved from wolves and a wolf that didn't startle/run at the sound of a gun would've been removed from the gene pool. The 1st dog clearly wasn't trained/conditioned around the pistol. His reaction is normal/understandable. Yeah he probably isn't an ideal PPD but I think he'd be a cute pet. The 2nd dog I would never be able to take... way above my skill level as an average pet owner.


Except that the split in the gene pool predates the invention of firearms by a few million years? 
As to the two dogs, in actual fact the first dog as shown would be more difficult for a green handler.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

violetmd said:


> I agree! Dogs are evolved from wolves and a wolf that didn't startle/run at the sound of a gun would've been removed from the gene pool. The 1st dog clearly wasn't trained/conditioned around the pistol. His reaction is normal/understandable. Yeah he probably isn't an ideal PPD but I think he'd be a cute pet. The 2nd dog I would never be able to take... way above my skill level as an average pet owner.


The first one would give you more trouble then the 2nd.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Wolves survived by having a healthy fear of people and dogs evolved through a synergistic relationship with people.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Rionel said:


>


 frankly I think the stonnie video is a little disingenuous. Note the posture on the handlers. 






and be VERY careful what you wish for


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