# I'm so upset....just want to cry



## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

As some of you know, I have been having some problems with my puppy Jackson and his behavior towards strange people and dogs. I have continued to socialize him and things seemed to be progressing well, but today things just took 10 steps back...

For those of you who don't know...
Jackson is almost 5 months old. His personality is confident around the house, he is a hard dog, and very serious for a puppy. It's impossible for anyone but me or my husband to get him to wag his tail or engage in play. Towards strange people and dogs he melts down, more so with people.


Things were going well with us. We socialize anywhere from 2-4 times per week, new places, people, dogs. Last week we had our first visit to the dog park and he did BETTER than normal with other dogs, but when my friend tried to approach me, Jackson barked, hackled, and growled at her.

When he does this, the trainer, breeder, and fellow members instructed me to ignore his behavior, praise him when he allows someone to approach, and never force him.

Today, I was walking with my dad for over an hour with Jackson. He was doing great. My dad walked ahead and approx. 3 minutes later, Jackson and I went to find him. When we got to him, Jackson froze, growled, barked at him. He did this for probably about 5 minutes and it was impossible for me to even get near my dad without him melting down. It's like he didn't "remember" or recognize him only after a few minutes of being away.

Later on friends were at our house. Jackson spent 3 hours hiding behind chairs, or behind me. He was completley unapproachable. Barking, growling, and hiding. If anyone made a simple move as to 'walk by' he freaked out. People couldn't simply act their "normal" selves without him being totally scared.

He has NEVER been abused or had any bad experiences with anyone, I am totally confused and VERY upset. What am I doing wrong? PLEASE, if anyone can help, please let me know. He's getting bigger and his problem is NOT getting better. I am afraid he could bite someone if approached wrong, espeically as he matures. In fact, he is getting WORSE with his behavior as he gets older.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

You aren't doing anything wrong. It sounds like you need a behaviorist to help you with Jackson. I see from your profile that you live in Wisconsin. You might try one of the people listed here:

Dog Trainer Search

I had to engage the services of a behaviorist with Hunther, and you'll be better off doing this sooner than later. Don't listen to the local trainer at PetSmart, for instance; they're not trained or qualified to deal with this sort of thing.

P.S. I had to use the ZIP code for Kenosha on this search, but I don't know how close that is to you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did he recently have a rabies vaccination?


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Did he recently have a rabies vaccination?


He had a rabies vac. a few weeks ago....? Can this cause behavior changes???


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It does not sound like you are doing anything wrong - Jackson has some fear issues, and if he is going through a fear period - well that just compounds everything! 

I'm sorry you are going through this, it must be very disheartening. I would seek professional help with him too. Good luck!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks so far everyone, it's very, very upsetting for me. I am ready to cry right now. I love him so much but I'm afraid he might not get over this. It's so difficult when he's fine at home, but melts down around other people when we are out and about. I tried really hard to get a good puppy but things just don't seem to be getting better for us.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

What realy upset me was when unexpectedly, my inlaws and nephew came by today. My nephew came into the living room, and was running with our son. Jackson jumped to his feet, and did a very low bark, hackles up, and ran at him. My nephew had been IN the house for some time, and Jackson knew he was in the other room. Well, my sister in law was pretty upset, and they left.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I know it's a really tough time and you don't have any immediate results. Some times certain dogs just aren't a good match- I know, I went through the same thing. I had to rehome a female gsd that for a variety of reasons was not happy or well-suited to me or our home. She's now a year old, living a very happy and healthy life with another couple and their year old make gsd. I had cried many tears over her and knew in my gut she was not the dog for me, and I was not the owner for her. I so hope that you and Jackson can work this out- for everyone's safety and happiness


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Education - Rabies Challenge Fund
I doubt this is the reason for Jackson's reactivity especially when he had his vax a few weeks ago. It was just a thought because of his extreme change in behavior.

I think it may be a fear stage and getting with a good trainer as suggested would be helpful. By building his confidence and being a strong leader he knows you are the one in control of all situations, so he won't need to feel insecure or reactive to scare the "bad people" away.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I will never understand why some people insist dogs that behave this way should be ignored and never corrected. There are some on this forum that are so pro positive and anti correction that they insisit your dog will be forever ruined if you issue a correction.

As my grandfather would say....hogwash.

the pro's that deal with dogs like this issue corrections

Your dog doesn't feel you are in control of the situation that he perceives as worthy of danger signs. If he is corrected firmly for this behavior it will cease to exist. He is young enough that this can be turned around, but he needs a firm handler. You will certainly get all sorts of opinions, but I ask you - is what you're doing (which is nothing) working?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree with rerun ignoring it will not make it go away. You need to find a really good private trainer to help with this. I wish you were closer I would send you to mine. Where in WI are you? My trainer does take dogs and train them at his home, I am in IL. I am not sure what the cost is for that. 

You really need help before this gets to far out of control and it is already on its way. There is still time to correct this. I have been working with my pup on his behavior when he sees other dogs. He is very friendly but sometimes acts like a nutcase when he sees other dogs. My trainer has been helping me correct this and told me right now it is not bad but it could turn into a huge problem if I let it go. I need to be stronger in getting my point across (not abusive) and giving treats like most trainers will tell you will not work for this situation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What lines is he from, what were his parents like? He's just 5 months old - I have a 5 month old foster puppy - unknown background, non-GSD - and a happy personality so a different type of pup, but he hackled, barked and growled at a 2 year old walking at him like a zombie the other day. So I did the whole look at that, yippee yay stuff and backed him away to a point where he was okay to look at her. I was still in control, and I didn't want to give him a correction not knowing the cause of the behavior (and I was pretty sure it was fear!) but it was in a way that was more puppy friendly. Yesterday he met a little boy, who granted was not zombie like in his movements, but he was able to accept the little person and wanted to play with him. Again, not a GSD, but similar in age. 

IF I knew he knew what it was, what he was expected to do, and how he reacted normally to this situation and that he was being a big dink, I'd let him know it was unacceptable (which is often the word I use - so that word for my dogs is a verbal correction). But now he needs to know what things are, and you can help to show him how to act (another more balanced adult dog going on some of the walks with you can make it a lot easier!). 

But at this stage in the game, these are first experiences and behaviors that can be shaped with the help of another set of eyes guiding YOU so that you can help him.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I may be completely on the wrong track here, but I was reading your thread when you were about to get the dog and there was mention of you already having a puppy at that time and that your very young child "tormented" that dog... so I wonder if perhaps there is some kind of problem with the child and this pup as well that could cause aggression? The thread is this one: Yikes!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I will never understand why some people insist dogs that behave this way should be ignored and never corrected. There are some on this forum that are so pro positive and anti correction that they insisit your dog will be forever ruined if you issue a correction.


Because then you end up with a dog who doesn't growl or warn and just tries to bite if dogs or people get too close. 

Growling is a warning and if you correct the growling instead of dealing with WHY they are growling, then you can create a bigger problem by removing the warning.

Using force to deal with fear doesn't help make them less fearful and can cause even more problems.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

gsdraven said:


> Because then you end up with a dog like my foster who doesn't growl or warn and just tries to bite if dogs get too close.
> 
> Growling is a warning and if you correct the growling instead of dealing with WHY they are growling, then you can create a bigger problem by removing the warning.
> 
> Using force to deal with fear doesn't help make them less fearful and can cause even more problems.


completely and totally false


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Rerun said:


> completely and totally false


I disagree. I believe in corrections just not for fear or growling out of fear. Correcting growling is only telling them not to growl. You NEED that warning to keep your dog and people safe.

Instead, you need to deal with WHY they are growling and work on that so that they don't need to growl.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Rerun said:


> completely and totally false


 
Hogwash.

Corrections when a dog is reacting out of FEAR are completely inappropriate and make matters worse. Dog is afraid that something bad will happen, so let's go and make sure something bad does happen and prove to the dog that he was absolutely correct to feel frightened in the first place. And teach the dog that it can't trust the owner at the same time. Yeah, that's helpful.

I have no problem correcting a dog. But this is not the time or place for corrections. And yes absolutely correcting a dog for giving warning can certainly teach the dog not to give warning and just escalate because it doesn't address the underlying cause of why he is acting that way, only the behavioral expression. You can't correct a dog out of feeling insecure. You can correct him for expressing that with growling, but if the underlying cause isn't addressed nothing has changed with regard to how the dog feels, why he feels that way and his chances of reacting. He's just going to react in a different manner, probably escalating.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Hope you can find a qualified behaviorist. Where did you get the dog? Do you have access to his background? I know that dogs regress at that age, go through a fear phase but it shouldn't last too long. Try as much socialization as you have time for. Pups at that age need constant attention and some need a lot of reassurance. Good luck but also prepare yourself for the possibility of giving him up to someone who has an environment that is better for his personality.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And it can't really be false if we've seen it can it?

My Bella was a mess at 6 months - it took them something like an hour and a half to get her from the car to the foster's house - fear aggression (and the people moving her were people who had titled dogs in Schutzhund, plus handled rescue dogs so not unaware). She was in her foster home for 2 months, and then I adopted her. While her foster home did a good job of stopping the behavior, they didn't address the why, so I had a potentially more dangerous dog on my hands. 

I had to kind of undo, readjust, etc. so that instead of her being suppressed, she felt able to communicate discomfort. It was really difficult because she had no signs. Now I know, she knows and she's great. To see her you wouldn't think there was a problem. But she's a heck of a lot safer to be around than when she was compliantly coiled.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

This puppy seems to be reacting from FEAR and lack of confidence. So any corrections would be completely INappropriate, adding to the stress and sucking away confidence even more.

In what world would you yell and 'correct' when a pup is already fearful? How could a correction address the fear and help get a MORE confident puppy?

ARE YOU USING FOOD???????????'

Cause I don't understand how if EVERY SINGLE HUJMAN your puppy meets is handing them a piece of cheese/liver/hotdog/whatever your puppy isn't getting a bit more confident and delighted to see people. Specailly someone they know that has 100% of the time been giving them a treat. Around the house, around the yard, around the neighborhood.

ARE YOU USING FOOD ALL THE TIME? 

In fact 100% of the food and calories my dog would be intaking would be from either my hand or someone elses hand. No food bowls for months.

ARE YOU PLAYING WITH YOUR DOG? How many hours a week are JUST playing? Off leash? Tugging. Throwing. Tugging.

A happy and confident puppy makes a happy confident adult dog. A happy confident puppy listens/learns/obeys and THEN can take a correction in stride (though you rarely have to correct).l

DID YOU START UP WITH THE CLICKER?

All positive, all part of your puppy learning how wonderful they are and how YOU are able to lead them and teach them so they should just look to you and follow your lead?

I commend you on what you have done. But now sure about the steps you have failed to do that I know would start to help immediately. Way more FUN. Way more exercise. Way more training/learning that they understand and will build their confidence (and NOT with any corrections).


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

cassadee7 said:


> I may be completely on the wrong track here, but I was reading your thread when you were about to get the dog and there was mention of you already having a puppy at that time and that your very young child "tormented" that dog... so I wonder if perhaps there is some kind of problem with the child and this pup as well that could cause aggression? The thread is this one: Yikes!


Cassadee,

Yes we have a young child and another dog. When I said that I did exaggerate a bit! before we had Jackson, our son would go up to Arlo and give him a hug, he could step on his feet (accidentally, I would never let him do it on purpouse), sometimes he would go lay by him or rest his head on Arlo, sometimes Arlo would get in the way of cars zooming across the kitchen floor, etc, etc. He would easily put up with the everyday behavior of a child. I don't let my son do anything to the dogs that would cause them pain. Using "torment" was not a good choice for me to use. My son simply acts like a kid around them and I do not tolerate anything that could hurt the dogs from my son. He knows not to pull their hair, ears, tails, or sit on them, etc. He did that to Arlo in the beginning, but we taught him that it was unacceptable- he had never been around a puppy before so teaching him NOT to do that was something we definately worked on. We were working really hard to make sure he didn't do any of that BEFORE we added another puppy and he has been good about it. Actually he is very very gentle with Jackson and always has been and is very very gentle with all animals now, he especially loves to be gentle with small breeds and baby kittens. And he was this way before we added Jackson.

The problem I am having with Jackson is that if he doesn't recognize a person, he doesn't like them. Adult or child. Even yesterday, in the case of my dad, he knows my dad and just spent over an hour with him. And in as little as 3 minutes of NOT seeing him, he acted like he was going to bite him!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I knew someone who had to put their Great-Pyrrenese mix down because he WAS corrected for growling and hackling at people and other dogs. On the advice of a trainer/behaviourist, the owner watched for these signs of imminent dog/person attack (because he did attack small dogs and people), and corrected him before it escalated, or so the mind-set went. 

So the dog learned to NOT show any signs at all, no eye contact, no stiffening, no hackling, no growling - just a fast, swift attack out of the blue. I knew very little about dogs back then, but I keep wondering now if the final outcome could have been prevented if the dog had been handled differently.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Hogwash.
> 
> *Corrections when a dog is reacting out of FEAR are completely inappropriate and make matters worse. Dog is afraid that something bad will happen, so let's go and make sure something bad does happen and prove to the dog that he was absolutely correct to feel frightened in the first place. And teach the dog that it can't trust the owner at the same time. Yeah, that's helpful.*
> 
> I have no problem correcting a dog. But this is not the time or place for corrections. And yes absolutely correcting a dog for giving warning can certainly teach the dog not to give warning and just escalate because it doesn't address the underlying cause of why he is acting that way, only the behavioral expression. You can't correct a dog out of feeling insecure. You can correct him for expressing that with growling, but if the underlying cause isn't addressed nothing has changed with regard to how the dog feels, why he feels that way and his chances of reacting. He's just going to react in a different manner, probably escalating.


See that's what I thought too! It's so dang confusing! I feel like I need to be correcting him when he begins to bark and hackle and go into the "zone", but then again I KNOW it's fear based so I don't want to make him more afraid. He locks onto whoever he's afraid of. I KNOW it's fear based. Which I don't understand. He has never had a bad experience with anyone. I have been socializing him pleanty IMO. Positive, positive, positive. The problem just continues to get worse and I'm so frustrated and confused! I consider myself a strong handler as well. If the dogs listen to anyone in the house, it's me, there really isn't a power struggle in the house with humans vs. dogs.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Pupperlove,

Has Jackson had a complete medical work up to rule out anything wrong? It is weird that he doesn't recognize people that were just with him. Have his eyes been checked?

Like MRL said, you made a good start but you now need to go a little further. Is every experience with people a good one? Does he get lots of praise and treats when he is calm around people?

When he acts afraid, you aren't petting him or telling him "it's ok" are you? Doing that tells him that it is ok to be afraid.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

gsdraven said:


> Pupperlove,
> 
> Has Jackson had a complete medical work up to rule out anything wrong? It is weird that he doesn't recognize people that were just with him. Have his eyes been checked?
> 
> ...


Well put....

You've been doing well, you just need to ramp it up and do more. 

And I think you are going down a bad road if you start correcting this 'fear' based behavior at all. 

Have you purchased and watched the DVD Calming Signals by Turid Rugass? HUGE help for me for learning what I am really seeing in my dogs (rather than what I THINK I'm seeing). 

Also the book The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell is a great read and full of behavior bases stuff (not obedience). How to be a good leader for your dog that they trust.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Stosh said:


> I know it's a really tough time and you don't have any immediate results. Some times certain dogs just aren't a good match- I know, I went through the same thing. I had to rehome a female gsd that for a variety of reasons was not happy or well-suited to me or our home. She's now a year old, living a very happy and healthy life with another couple and their year old make gsd. I had cried many tears over her and knew in my gut she was not the dog for me, and I was not the owner for her. I so hope that you and Jackson can work this out- for everyone's safety and happiness


Aw Stosh that must havew been so hard. I feel your pain right now because of course, I always think the worst and have thought 'what if I have to breing him back to his breeder?' I would feel like a total failure, but I would also feel like a total failure if I kept him, things DIDN't get better, and someone got hurt. Plus I don't have $500,000 in my savings for a lawsuit.. 

It's a pretty sure thing that within the next few years there will be several kids at our house when my son starts school, and family already transferred all holidy parties to our house. I DONT WANT TO REHOME HIM BACK TO THE BREEDER. Plain and simple. But I can't help but think that the _possibility_ is there....  

Then I think maybe I'm jumping the gun invisioning the future with him, but then again he's growing fast and something needs to change because dispite all of the advice I have been given he's not improving. And why is he so un-playful??? I really really believed that he was getting better. Big steps forward, but yesterday we took 10 steps back and in my heart I think something is 'off' with him- and that is really unsettling for me emotionally. I love him so much  . I'm going to hold onto the possibility that he's going through a phase.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Pupperlove,
> 
> Has Jackson had a complete medical work up to rule out anything wrong? It is weird that he doesn't recognize people that were just with him. Have his eyes been checked?
> 
> ...


I had his normal puppy exam, but maybe I should schedule another appt. It's very worrisome when he doesn't recognize someone he just saw, that scared me, luckily he's still under 50 lbs and easily controlled...

When he acts afraid, I simply ignore him. Since we are usually out of the house when he sees people, he's of course on a leash, so we just keep walking or leave the situation. If someone is talking with us, I instruct them to "_Please ignore him. Let him come to you, and talk calmly when he does." I tell this to everyone_. Nobody can just 'come pet my dog'.

Yesterday I did a big no, no. He was afraid, and so many people were over, he was glued to my side in the kitchen, literally leaning on me while walking. He was obviously very tense so I kneeled down and told him it's ok and pet him for a bit, then a friend tried to pet him and he was fine. He was fine around that particular friend the rest of the day after that.

I could have put him in his kennel while people were over, but then I would be sheltering him away from the usual activity which I don't want to do, that won;t helo anything. So I left him out, and he was tense the whole time, I'm not sure that was so good either???

He's very confident around the house, hes a HARD dog, corrections don't phase him, loud noises, new objects- nothing. But he's also terrified of new people? That just doesn't seem in line with his personality??


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> This puppy seems to be reacting from FEAR and lack of confidence. So any corrections would be completely INappropriate, adding to the stress and sucking away confidence even more.
> 
> In what world would you yell and 'correct' when a pup is already fearful? How could a correction address the fear and help get a MORE confident puppy?
> 
> ...


 
I am using food  It seems to help the situation out most of the time. But yesterday, he wouldn't take a treat from anyone but me  . The treats were working well, but like I said, yesterday was a whole different story..

I'll take away his bowl starting today and do handfeeding from me and strangers only and see how that goes.

Play is on and off all day around the house. Then we do about 2 hours (or more) of outdoor, off-leash, fetch, and tugging (he likes tug!).
And a walk about 4x per week. That's not including socializing time. All that is with JUST him, no Arlo.

I am pretty set on getting a clicker after this. I am hoping it will help him focus on ME. I am struggling with that right now, he's beginnig to ignore me and be a typical difficult teen.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

So what if he's tense, he needs to learn that he will get over it. We learn from surviving stressful situations. As long as he is not a danger to anyone, leave him out. Also, I don't see why you can't correct him for unwanted behavior. How else will he learn? I assume you are not striking or over-correcting. You are, after all, the boss. He's not as fragile as you might think, assuming again that you aren't being 'mean'.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

PupperLove said:


> I could have put him in his kennel while people were over, but then I would be sheltering him away from the usual activity which I don't want to do, that won;t helo anything. So I left him out, and he was tense the whole time, I'm not sure that was so good either???


Where is his crate? Does he really like the crate? Maybe if you leave the crate in the living room (or where everyone is) with the door open so he can go in as he pleases, that will help. It will be a safe place for him to get away without removing him completely from the situation.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

PaddyD said:


> So what if he's tense, he needs to learn that he will get over it. We learn from surviving stressful situations. As long as he is not a danger to anyone, leave him out. Also, I don't see why you can't correct him for unwanted behavior. How else will he learn? I assume you are not striking or over-correcting. You are, after all, the boss. He's not as fragile as you might think, assuming again that you aren't being 'mean'.


 
:headbang:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> So what if he's tense, he needs to learn that he will get over it. We learn from surviving stressful situations. As long as he is not a danger to anyone, leave him out. Also, I don't see why you can't correct him for unwanted behavior. How else will he learn? I assume you are not striking or over-correcting. You are, after all, the boss. He's not as fragile as you might think, assuming again that you aren't being 'mean'.


With a fearful dog, it is key to keep them under their threshold and not push them to their breaking point. Fearful dogs can be dangerous because they are unpredictable and over-stressing them can push them to the edge. Being afraid of something is not the same as chasing the cat or jumping on the couch. 

If you got yanked around the neck or hit on the bum everytime you encountered something that really scared you, would you stop being scared of it? No, more likely you will continue to be scared and eventually lash out at the thing scaring you or the person correcting you because you just can't take it anymore.

That is why we don't correct for being afraid. Instead, it is really important to show good leadership and calmly show them that there is no reason to be afraid. The only way to accomplish this is by counter conditioning and lots of positive experiences with something that was once scary.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> _So what if he's tense, he needs to learn that he will get over it. We learn from surviving stressful situations. As long as he is not a danger to anyone, leave him out._ Also, I don't see why you can't correct him for unwanted behavior. How else will he learn? I assume you are not striking or over-correcting. You are, after all, the boss. He's not as fragile as you might think, assuming again that you aren't being 'mean'.


_That's what I thought. I don't want to put him in his kennel because after all, he needs to be able to cope with our everyday life, and if he cannot, how can he be our pet, in our house?_

I don't want to correct him for being afraid, but I did yell "NO!" at him when he barked, hackled, and chased my nephew, THAT is unacceptable whether he is afraid or not. GSD's are smart dogs, and idk how emotionally fragile they are but I don't want to do something that may impact how he perceives life in the future.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> *With a fearful dog, it is key to keep them under their threshold and not push them to their breaking point. Fearful dogs can be dangerous because they are unpredictable and over-stressing them can push them to the edge.*


And this is what terrifies me. Plain and simple, exactly what I DIDN'T want in a dog...sigh... 

Plus to everyone THANK YOU SO MUCH for all of your replies and recommendations so far. You have all been a great help and it's therapeudic (sp?) to talk with you all.

He's an awesome dog other than that though, that's for sure!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

PupperLove said:


> And this is what terrifies me. Plain and simple, exactly what I DIDN'T want in a dog...sigh...
> 
> Plus to everyone THANK YOU SO MUCH for all of your replies and recommendations so far. You have all been a great help and it's therapeudic (sp?) to talk with you all.
> 
> He's an awesome dog other than that though, that's for sure!


PupperLove, you can work with Jackon but it's going to take patience, calm leadership, knowledge on your part and time. I didn't mean to scare you and wasn't talking specifically about Jackson in that post. 

As mentioned, you should try and find a good behaviorist that has dealt with fear issues before. Definitely get the Calming Signals DVD and learn to spot behaviors before they escalate. 

Like the situation where Jackson chased your nephew, he likely showed some signs of being uncomfortable before that happened. Maybe he got focused on your nephew and stiffened a little. Dogs give off so many signals that we don't pick up on and learning to read Jackson is going to be crucial in getting him over his fear and keeping everyone (Jackson included) safe.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What lines is he from again? Did he come from a breeder that you can talk to/work with/respect/have a relationship with? While it's not always the case, there are slightly different ways to look at behavior depending on the dogs' genetics. 

Go here: Working with a fearful dog

One of the most important links: shy-k9s : shy-k9s

Join that group and check out the archives. You will also see a different way of looking at "reinforcing fear" by telling a dog that it's okay - not the same as what people are saying here, and I agree with the shy dog people.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

PupperLove said:


> _That's what I thought. I don't want to put him in his kennel because after all, he needs to be able to cope with our everyday life, and if he cannot, how can he be our pet, in our house?_
> 
> I don't want to correct him for being afraid, but I did yell "NO!" at him when he barked, hackled, and chased my nephew, THAT is unacceptable whether he is afraid or not. GSD's are smart dogs, and idk how emotionally fragile they are but I don't want to do something that may impact how he perceives life in the future.


That's also part herding behavior. Even if he had no fear, he would likely chase! :wild:


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> What lines is he from again? Did he come from a breeder that you can talk to/work with/respect/have a relationship with? While it's not always the case, there are slightly different ways to look at behavior depending on the dogs' genetics.
> 
> Go here: Working with a fearful dog
> 
> ...


Jean, sorry I read your comment and forgot to respond!

He is from a mix of lines really. He from German lines, I know some show lines but I'm not sure about working lines? I know dad was 75% east 25% west, mom was 50/50 east and west. I don't have a pedigree on him though  . So I know that really doesn't help a whole lot...

I have been in contact with his breeder and he is always willing to help us with training and any other questions we have. He is very supportive which is great. He has been raising and breeding GSDs for 25-30 years. He's what I would consider a hobby breeder. I met the mom, and she was approchable, friendly, and calm, but the father was not there. I was provided with pictures of him and was told he had a great temperment...but really, who knows if I didn't meet him.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Correcting a dog doesn't have to be a negative situation. You can let him know in a soft but firm way what is and isn't acceptable. My dog started out shy but learned that she could make mistakes without being over-corrected. She learned to trust that I would set the boundaries of her behavior. That way she became confident in me and herself. Now I get compliments almost daily on what a happy, well-mannered dog she is. Sorry if this sounds like bragging but it is the result of a lot of work and patience.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

PupperLove said:


> Jean, sorry I read your comment and forgot to respond!
> 
> He is from a mix of lines really. He from German lines, I know some show lines but I'm not sure about working lines? I know dad was 75% east 25% west, mom was 50/50 east and west. I don't have a pedigree on him though  . So I know that really doesn't help a whole lot...
> 
> I have been in contact with his breeder and he is always willing to help us with training and any other questions we have. He is very supportive which is great. He has been raising and breeding GSDs for 25-30 years. He's what I would consider a hobby breeder. I met the mom, and she was approchable, friendly, and calm, but the father was not there. I was provided with pictures of him and was told he had a great temperment...but really, who knows if I didn't meet him.


Thanks! I get ignored a lot :rofl: but am persistent! That info may help others who know more than me! Plus, again, he's 5 months old, so everything is new! 

You know, when it's not your dog and you've had a lot of puppies, it's a lot easier to be calm and optimistic, like my foster. I was like, oh, this is silly you little puppy and voila, was able to work through it easily. My OWN puppy (well he's 1.5) who is dog reactive - I clench and make things much worse! 

I do much better when I am with my dog with someone else who can walk me through all the things I know to do, but forget in my stress reaction. And since I do know stuff about people reactivity, it's easier. But still new!

The hardest is when it's a new thing to you and it's your dog. That's why finding a really good behaviorist who gets fear, and going on that shy k9 group will help a lot, and having that live person with you guiding you will be key.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> PupperLove, you can work with Jackon but it's going to take patience, calm leadership, knowledge on your part and time. I didn't mean to scare you and* wasn't talking specifically about Jackson in that post. *


Oh it's ok even if you were! It's totally true no matter what dog you are talking about and that's why I am so worried at this point. I am going to look into a different trainer who has worked with dogs like this and I would like to speak with my vet as well.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> Correcting a dog doesn't have to be a negative situation. You can let him know in a soft but firm way what is and isn't acceptable. My dog started out shy but learned that she could make mistakes without being over-corrected. She learned to trust that I would set the boundaries of her behavior. That way she became confident in me and herself. Now I get compliments almost daily on what a happy, well-mannered dog she is. Sorry if this sounds like bragging but it is the result of a lot of work and patience.


This is not your dog. The people on this thread who are saying over and over again that you absolutely must not correct this particular dog or you will make the situation worse are speaking from _many, many_ years of experience. 

I have personally worked worked with two fear aggressive dogs. They were _completely_ different from one another and I had to spend a long time learning each dog's individual triggers and figure out how to work with the dog to build confidence, etc. In one case the dog came to me at 4.5 years old and the behaviors were a result of many years of neglect and abuse. 

In the other the dog was a puppy and was literally wired too tight--he had some serious temperament issues. He acted very much like you're describing in regards to people. If I couldn't watch and work with him all of the time around people I had to crate him away from them. 

Do you have the book "Click to Calm?" That and the yahoo group that Jean lists above were extremely helpful to me in working with Kai. I also used the LAT method (Look at that! with a treat for a look and a neutral reaction) successfully with him. 

Also, a good holistic vet might really be able to help you, if that's an avenue you want to pursue. A single homeopathic remedy might help things in his head. 

If you want to take him to a behaviorist I would go here: Dog's Best Friend Training | Dog Training and Behavior, In-home/Office Consultations - Madison, WI
When I lived in Madison we used them for our tough fosters. 

Hang in there...it is a long, uphill battle. And PLEASE do not listen to people who are telling you to correct your dog for this behavior, no matter how many of them post on this thread. Following their advice could result in your dog biting someone.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Best of luck! You got a lot of advice to sort out but it gives you many ideas to work with and some knowledge that you are not alone. I hope to hear of your success and how it came about. May you have many happy years with your pup.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If this dog isn't just unstable, unlikely but possible, I would also correct him for this behavior and I've been doing this since the stone age. Fear aggressive dogs need to know they are not in charge and do not have to protect anyone. By correcting them for this behavior, you let them know it's unacceptable behavior and you are in charge. Corrections have to be without emotion, appropriate to the behavior, and you must follow it with praise. By setting very clear limits and being extremely consistent with both positive and negative consequences, your dog will relax by being secure in his place.

I keep seeing fear aggressive dogs getting the positive only type of training and, so far, I have only seen it fail miserably by the dog getting worse. This type of dog can not be fixed, but can get better to a point and you will always have to be on top of this problem.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

BowWowMeow said:


> Hang in there...it is a long, uphill battle. And PLEASE do not listen to people who are telling you to correct your dog for this behavior, no matter how many of them post on this thread.


That's really unfortunate advice. So no matter how many people with significant dog experience advise the OP as to what to do (since the advice given by the other half of the crowd clearly isn't working), the OP should only listen to half the advice. Interesting. I guess if I were the OP, I'd be wondering which half to listen to.

Fortunately, for those of us that do issue corrections when a dog behaves like this, it isn't a long uphill battle. It's very brief and to the point and the dog ceases to behave in such a manner.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Personally, I think any discussion on a message board for situations like these is at best useless and at worst problems waiting to happen. Trying to give advice on something like this over the internet is frankly just a bad idea because there is just too much room for misinterpretation and miscommunication. The only way to effectively deal with this sort of situation and have any hope for success is to work with an experienced, knowledgeable person who can be there to see the dog first hand. See what is triggering the dog, why the dog is triggering, how the dog is triggering, and also what the owner might be contributing to the whole situation, even unconsciously, in order to identify the underlying cause and address it. The behavior itself will not be eliminated, not reliably so, without addressing the underlying cause. Anything less is nothing but a temporary bandaid that will come off at some point. 

The "correct the dog for it" philosophy can work, yes. We had to take this approach with our Nara after other things were tried without success, and yes it worked with her. But I've encountered far more dogs where it would have been the worst possible choice, and seen far more dogs where it was done and the dog essentially ruined by it when other methods would have helped significantly. And how do you know which dog is which? You absolutely canNOT going by posts on the internet. You can only know by seeing the dog, and knowing what to look for.

But my feelings on that are pretty well moot since it is being discussed and many people are weighing in on both sides with very contridictory advice. Which of course brings about the problem of figuring out which side to listen to. With regards to that I look at it like this:

One half says X. X may not help, but will not under any circumstances make things worse.

One half says Y. Y may help, but may also may make things much worse.

The only fool proof answer is to work with someone in person. Until that is done, IMO the best course of action is to avoid anything that has the potential to make it worse. In a situation like this, staying put until help can be found is much, much better than taking several steps backward, possibly to the point where there is no moving forward ever again.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hopefully the OP will take her dog to a veterinary opthamologist. Gsds are especially prone to myopia and it is possible he has a vision problem. If that is ruled out I hope she will be able to get an eval done by one of the behaviorists at Patricia McConnell's training facility or another facility who employs certified animal behaviorists. 

And, for the record, I know for a fact that several of us who are advocating not using corrections *for this particular dog * are not purely positive trainers. In the case of this 5 month old puppy we are hearing about through an internet board, we can't be sure as to what exactly is going on. What is for sure though is that counter-conditioning cannot further set the dog back while corrections can. I have experienced a fear aggressive dog who bit because I did not understand how to properly deal with his issues and I wouldn't wish that on anyone else.

ETA: I was composing my response at the time Chris Wild was posting. When it comes to behavior, I would take her advice over mine any day.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree that finding a behaviorist, trainer who is GSD savvy, can help with situations like this vs getting info off the internet from people who haven't seen the dog in "action" so to speak. 

As for using negative or postive training , again, I'd leave that up to a qualified in person , person to access what to do.

For right now, when you have people over, this puppy would be on a leash with me at the other end, at all times just for safety measures. 

Good luck, and I wish you success


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> The only fool proof answer is to work with someone in person. Until that is done, IMO the best course of action is to avoid anything that has the potential to make it worse. In a situation like this, staying put until help can be found is much, much better than taking several steps backward, possibly to the point where there is no moving forward ever again.


I'll admit, I don't know much about training dogs or doggy behavior, but I do like to think I have at least a modicum of common sense, and by that standard, this is the best piece of advice given in answer to the OP's question. Kind of like the "First, do no harm" part of the Hippocratic oath.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would take a look at the Michael Ellis clips on Fear stages/aggression in young dogs. They may help explain the behaviors you are seeing and ways to work thru them. 

Though I agree, a behavoirist who is versed in these issues is the best place to go.

Onyx was much the same way, reactive to people and dogs, starting when she was 6 months on...at maturity she has mellowed but I put alot of work into management and training with her. I still can't have her out and about because she gets over her threshold. Some dogs just have to be managed carefully for life because of their genetic temperament.
I do NOT correct her for her behaviors but play the LAT game and use positive reenforcement/redirection, building her confidence thru agility helped as well.
I still wonder if vaccines played a part in Onyx's behaviors because none of her littermates supposedly had issues.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Michael Ellis clips on different forms of dog aggression:
http://www.youtube.com/user/leerburg#p/u/28/9siVtZyeE7k


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Does he know basic commands? Sit, down, touch, etc? It can be very helpful to give him something else to fall back on that he is good at and knows when he becomes fearful. Touch/target is a great one for this here is just one website on targeting Working with fearful, scared and shy dogs. Just google teach target to fearful dogs and you will find more.

My trainer has always said that before we can make a correction or change a behaviour the dog needs something to fall back on. It is something he knows how to do, it is where the foundation starts.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Like I said I am going through this now with an almost 11 month old who was reactive from the start. I am hopefully going to be working with a good trainer in the next month or too and I can tell you from calling around make sure they work with GSD's regularly. I just got the book feisty fido I'll tell you if it's any good


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Alright everyone,

Again, thank you for all for the advice. I have read everything that has been posted and I am still going through the links and checking out the videos/books suggested with the time I have to spare.

Yesterday, we did things a little differently. I took Jackson out early in the morning to play play play right away, and continued to let him stay out with us only...no Arlo to distract him. I did not feed him yesterday from his bowl, only from my hands o if he wanted to eat, he needed to co-operate with me. 

My sister came to the house in the after noon. Jackson hasn't seen her in a while, and he ran up to her and greeted her with his tail wagging like a normal pup. WOW!

2nd visitor came, and Jackson again greeted him with his tail wagging (he has been at the house the past 4 days in a row though).

3rd visitor came, and he calmly walked up to her, sniffed her, and let her pet him....he has also seen her the past 4 days in a row. 

He got LOTS of praise and treats while he was properly greeting too, btw!! So yesterday was a complete turn around from Sunday. Im a tid-bit confused but very pleased with how he acted yesterday. Possibly he needs CONSTANT socialization, like DAILY, to continue to act positively. It seems that when we go a few days without it, that's when he's the worst. Maybe today we'll stop by the vet's office for a weigh-in and some treats.....


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Wow, very impressive! At least he knows what a proper greeting is. Good job to you both.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

That's great news! Hope it continues. Maybe it's that fear phase many go through at that age.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Great news, lets hope it keeps up for you. Good job!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> That's great news! Hope it continues. Maybe it's that fear phase many go through at that age.


Thanks everyone, I really hope it's a phase but he has me worried. Days like that when he's fine give me hope, and he's not generally spooked easily with things other than people. Like vacuum cleaners, drills, CHAINSAWS (he wanted to go see what it was!), fireworks, stores, etc. so I'm gonna keep trying with him and I'll let you know how it goes and look into some of the things suggested.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

PupperLove said:


> Thanks everyone, I really hope it's a phase but he has me worried. Days like that when he's fine give me hope, and he's not generally spooked easily with things other than people. Like vacuum cleaners, drills, CHAINSAWS (he wanted to go see what it was!), fireworks, stores, etc. so I'm gonna keep trying with him and I'll let you know how it goes and look into some of the things suggested.



That's so great to hear he's getting better about strangers!!!! I hope he doesn't get skiddish again, it sounds like he's really coming around.
I would watch for more phases though --- Minna is about the same age and a couple weeks ago she was shy of people again, and then the following week she snapped out of it and was friendly.
She sort of trades one stage/phase for something else. I'm just consistent with how I treat her and how I react to situations, that's all we can do as owners.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Rerun said:


> I will never understand why some people insist dogs that behave this way should be ignored and never corrected. There are some on this forum that are so pro positive and anti correction that they insisit your dog will be forever ruined if you issue a correction.
> 
> As my grandfather would say....hogwash.
> 
> the pro's that deal with dogs like this issue corrections


I am not proud of what I am going to write but I did it, so I'm stuck with it. In Hunther's case, a fully charged E-collar set on 100 out of 100 settings didn't work. I then back tied him with a 3/8" steel cable on a prong collar, and had a neutral dog placed at 50 yards. He got up from a down, charged out to the end of the cable, and broke it without even breaking stride. He charged the other dog until all four people present shouted, "NOOO!" He then slammed on the brakes and I was able to recall him and leash him back up. He bent the prongs of a Herm Sprenger prong collar (not a cheap pet store model); the only reason he didn't break the collar was that the cable let go first. It's a miracle that a) he didn't break his neck, and b) the dog still loves me.

How would _you_ train a dog like this?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you said you socialize 3 or 4 times a week. well, that's not
remotely close enough. why don't you train and socialize 6
or 7 times a day for short periods. you can train
and socialize day or night. make time for the dog.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

The pro that I dealt with has a Master's degree in ethology, has evaluated dangerous dogs for two counties' shelter systems for fifteen years, and has testified in court as an expert witness in dog-dog and dog-human aggression cases. We never used a correction to change Hunther's behavior. He went from exploding at 50 yards to reporting in to the judge with another dog and handler at 6 feet. He's got a Schutzhund III. Some days, the best thing he did was report in for obedience without a problem.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> you said you socialize 3 or 4 times a week. well, that's not
> remotely close enough. why don't you train and socialize 6
> or 7 times a day for short periods. you can train
> and socialize day or night. make time for the dog.


Oh yes, he's getting pleanty of socialization. When I say 3-4x per week that doesn't mean that he sees 3 other people and we got 1 other place. 3-4X per week of day long social time is usually the case, so 3-4 days of the week we spend in areas other than our house. Usually anywhere from 2-5plus hours and that is multiple places, multiple people...usually anywhere from 10-30 people per socialization day and 5-15 dogs per socialization day. I do not think he is under-socialized at all. 

That's not counting the people coming and going from our house. And we do make time for him- being that someone is home 24 hours per day, and he lives in the house with us and we do daily training, and lots of playing in the yard, I think that he gets pleanty of time! We go on very populated hiking trails, hang out at the vets office, go to petco and petsmart, the dog park, friends houses, family's houses, walks in our very residential neighborhood, and anywhere I can possibly take him, he comes with me. People are not strange to him...he sees pleanty!!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Ok, it's been a few months and I have an update on Jackson:

He is calming down *finally* when he meets new people. It was to the point that he was shutting down when people were in the house and going into defense mode.

I tried something different. When we knew company was on the way, we crated both dogs. They both love to bark, so we let them get it out for about five minutes, and then let Arlo out of his crate first (who is OVERLY friendly). After doing this a few times, Jackson finally understood and saw how much fun Arlo was having with everyone, and when we let him out, he was coming up to everyone, tail wagging, and licking them. There is a total night and day difference in his behavior towards people.

However, he hates other dogs. He used to be fine as a small pup, then began reacting slightly (less than towards people) , but as he's maturing, he seems to be becoming more aggressive towards them. He's not neutered, and I would like to wait until he matures physically if at all possible.

I also think that he was going through a very strong fear period for quite a while. He still gets startled over strange things sometimes, but it's greatly reduced and he is learning more about the world and more about paying attention to me, and his commands. I think it's alot for a puppy to take in sometimes and the fear stage makes everything a million times worse.

He is a very alert dog, and he has already showed that he would protect me and is very in-tune to body language (which in some ways I don't really like). But he has made tons of progress and I am pleased with him. His personality also came out of the cave and he is very hyper, and wants to go-go-go all the time.- he used to be very unmotivated, boring, unexcitable. He TESTS me like crazy. He wants to be the top dog, which I am working on breaking. I can really see how these dogs need tons of training and structure in their lives or they will take over the world! LOL!


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