# FLYBALL: Very Upset & Looking for Advice



## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

As some of you know, I've been doing Flyball with Jazz. Today was our 5th lesson and it was a disaster. Jazz gets very riled up and barks a lot and pulls when the other dogs are running. From what I'm told, this isn't uncommon because it's a very excitable sport. I try to distract him and sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

We were practicing a passing exercise where Jazz and another German Shepherd were passing one another while going over two jumps each. We've done passing exercises every class and Jazz always seemed very focused on me. This time however, Jazz attacked the female German Shepherd as they were passing. The instructors separated them fairly quickly but I'm horrified. The German Shepherd is a very sweet submissive girl and she was terrified. She was pacing and panicked in the corner while her owner and instructor tried to coax her to them.

I left in tears with Jazz but one of the instructors caught up with me. She encouraged me to return next week for our last class and to join the Flyball team since I had expressed interest in doing so. She said they would set up barriers so that he couldn't do that again and they'd keep the barriers up until his passing was soundproof. She said it could take 6 months or even a year but they'd work with him on it.

I know he's doing really well at it and he loves it but I feel so awful about what happened that I'm scared to continue Flyball with him. I keep replaying the scared German Shepherd through my mind and I don't want to be responsible for traumatizing a dog. I'm embarrassed to go back to class and worried about how the owner and the German Shepherd will react if we do. I just don't know what to do and I'm looking for some advice as to whether or not I should continue with him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

crap happens I would just profusely apologize to the other owner, express your hope her dog is ok. If the trainer is willing to set up a good barrier and work with you and Jazz, take her up on the offer..If you think the barrier is to flimsy, speak up.

It can be a high energy high frustration sport for some dogs, but if he's good at it, and you want to continue, do so..Hang in there, we've all been mortified by our dogs at one point or another..


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't think you would have been invited back had this not happened before or if they believed it would not be fixable.
Dogs are dogs. They will get riled up. 

I would make sure he got separated from the dog he attacked and I would soldier on.

Sorry Jazz did this. I would have been upset, too.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If they invited you back then it probably wasn't as bad as you think. If it makes you feel better apologize to the other dogs owner. I had a similar situation with my GSD, but it was play mode. We were in class and she boldly approached a very shy, fearful dog. The other dog snapped at my dog, but I knew it was out of fear. Later on when it was time for them to play, I politely declined because I knew my dog would approach the other dog again and I felt the dog had made progress up to that point, so I didn't want to make things worse. It sounds like they are doing everything they can to protect your dog and other dogs in this exercise. Maybe your dog was just having a bad day, it happens.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If it were my dog that your dog attacked, and I knew you felt the way you did - I would be upset of course, but not at you or your dog but at the situation. I would feel a lot better knowing that you felt the way you do, and that you still want to take steps in working with your dog.

I say go there, apologize again to the owner, and do what you have to do to ensure that everyone is safe while learning.

Stuff happens - we have dogs, not stuffed animals.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Sorry, I know you feel bad, but I would never let my dog run with yours knowing what she had done. I would never trust your dog to not do that again no matter what barrier you put up, it's not worth it for my dog's mental attitude. Your dog may well do this again, even with the barrier, and it can permanently screw up the dog she does it to even without contact.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I've a weak nerve dog that some other more confident dog may take advantage of - they will see her scared and come snap at her. I was in a dog class today, that's what happened and every dog that did it, they did it MORE than once, on leash, even after correction. Each of those dogs were severely corrected, but still repeated the action some time later. 

I'm sorry this happened to you. But being on the other side, I would not feel comfortable of letting those dogs near without a leash and you being right next to your dog as they pass by each other, as I worry this would set my weak nerve dog back when I'm trying to teach her to trust me and relax. If you do go back, please do not allow your dog next to the other dog without you being right next to your dog and being leashed and if he does do it again, he should be corrected accordingly and clearly.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

My GSD was attacked a few months ago. We were visiting another sports club, first time there. I was working OB with her on the field (I asked the head trainer if it were okay to bring my dog onto the field, he said it was fine, they worked OB on multiple dogs all the time). 

My dog was getting ready to do a long jump, a mal (handler lost grip on her long line) attacked her from behind. 

Long story short, my GSD wasn't injured. My GSD is dog reactive (I've worked on it a lot in the last 4 years and she is much much better), I was so worried it would set her back, fortunately it didn't. I was so horrified (I think I was more traumatized than my GSD :blush:, not sure if that's a good or bad thing), I felt horrible for putting her in that situation . 

I would never knowingly put my dog in that position, if there is a slightest chance that she will get attacked by another dog, she doesn't need to be on the field. 

I am not trying to make you feel worse :hugs:, but personally, I would only work your dog when there is no other dog around.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the OP certainly doesn't want a repeat performance and since the trainer is willing to put a blockade to stop it from happening, hopefully this will help.

I also have been on the 'victims' (I hate using that word but another escapes me at the moment),,end, Masi to this day, has a distinct dislike to anything "Golden", she was jumped on more than one occassion at a puppy class, and let me tell you, she has a memory like an elephant, it was a 'lax' class with a 'lax' trainer and I pulled her after two classes.. Something like that can leave a longlasting imprint. 

So I can see it from both sides I think what will help the OP is the trainer is on top of it and is willing to help stop this from ever happening again.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

things happen that we don't like when dogs are in
training. return to class and keep training. don't
wait for class to train.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Since the trainers were willing to allow you to come back I would say that's a good sign. If you want to go back and continue I wouldn't allow the one incident to stop you, especially if they're willing to help take precautions. But if you think you're going to be too uncomfortable then quit for now and try again later

Like others have said, dogs aren't 100% predictable and stuff does happen and most owners realize that. As long as you, the other owner, and the trainers are working together to keep them separate I wouldn't worry about it


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I certainly don't want a repeat performance. I think we likely all have stories of our dog(s) being attacked or at the very least on the receiving end of inappropriate behaviour, Jazz included. I have faith in the facility and trainers and don't doubt that their blockades will work. Jazz is not aggressive in everyday life. This is a first. Obviously the sport is very high stimulus and my fear is how will we truly know his passing is sound proof. Assuming down the road the instructors think he's ready to remove the blockade, I fear for that dog he's passing that first time. What if he's not ready? I don't want to put another dog in that situation. He did not bite this German Shepherd but to me that is irrelevant. He scared the living crap out of an innocent dog. I really want to pursue this with him but I obviously want to be responsible and safe as well. 

I'm thinking I may call the trainer this week and talk to her. I'll ask her how the owner of the GSD feels about me coming to the last class. I also want to know how the dog is doing. If she doesn't want me there then I'll skip it. I'll also express my concerns to the trainer about the future and see how she responds and how she says we'll handle it. Keeping the dogs' safe is the most important thing.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Carolyn, I think that's a plan, and your right, we've all been on both ends of the spectrum at times, and crap happens like I said.

Hang in there, let us know how it goes


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

I've been on both sides of the leash with this one...had a very reactive dog a few years ago that attacked the neighbor's GSD and bit her neck. Neighbor was very understanding (more than I might have been!) but I was mortified. After having the reactive dog, I find that with my current "pack" I am much more aware of other dogs and the potential for an attack (serious or not).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm actually surprised that in week 5 of the class they're already having dogs passing over the jumps. I think they're moving WAY too fast! Whether or not he'll ever be able to safely participate in flyball is something I can't predict, but there are a lot of steps leading up to the exercise you describe that seem to have been skipped over, and I would go back to the basics for awhile before even attempting that exercise again any time soon. 

I took two 6 week classes with the flyball club that we're now racing with, and then I joined them at practices for a couple of months before being officially invited to join the club and race - from the first class to Halo's first tournament was a little over 8 months, so we took things very slowly. 

Other than box work, which we do separately, the training progression looks like this. 

Determining which way the dog turns, teaching over and back using a gutter, restrained recalls, usually for a tug reward (one dog at a time, other dogs are crated).

Passing recalls on the flat (no jumps) with 10 or 15 feet between the dogs: Each dog is restrained while the owner revs them up and runs away. One dog is sent and when they get to their owner and is tugging, the other dog is sent, so they're staggered. Extra people are stationed around to make sure neither dog veers off their path and goes towards the other dog. 

Side by side restrained recalls on the flat: A green dog is paired up with a solid dog who will not chase, and won't do anything if they get chased. Dogs are again 10 or 15 feet apart, and the green dog is sent first so they don't see the other dog ahead of them. Extra people stand between the dogs, (if necessary) and will yell and run at a dog who starts to chase, directing them back towards their owner. 

Passing recalls with the stagger decreased so the second dog is sent just before the first dog gets to the owner, and then gradually sent earlier and earlier so finally the dogs are released at the same time and they pass in the middle, but are still 10 or 15 feet apart.

Side by side restrained recalls on the flat, with the dogs being released at the same time, still 10 or 15 feet apart. Once a dog is okay with the passing recalls and side by side recalls being released at the same time as the other dog with a lot of distance between them, we start reducing the distance. At first we might stagger the starts again, working up to being able to run towards another dog, and next to another dog, 5 or less feet apart. 

When we start working with the jumps, we backchain them, doing restrained recalls over one jump to the owner, then 2 jumps, then 3 jumps, etc. We do this with one dog at a time before adding a second dog running in the lane next to them. And we'll put wings on the side of the jumps to prevent the dog from running around them, or if the dog has a tendency to chase, we make a channel with plastic fencing along both sides of the lane so they can't run out, and station people in the runback area after the jumps, to discourage chasing and redirect the dog towards their owner. 

It's quite a while before we have dogs passing each other in the same lane, and when we do, we go back to staggering them so one dog is restrained next to the lane while the other dog runs towards them over the jumps, and then after the first dog is completely past and tugging with their owner, the second dog is sent over the jumps in the opposite direction. Sometimes we split the lane with plastic fencing in the runback area so the passing dogs are physically blocked from making contact as they run towards each other. 

Halo didn't actually have a pass until the weekend before her first tournament! And it was pretty big, we've been working on reducing it over the past few months - she'll be in her 6th tournament in 6-1/2 months the weekend after next. I got a couple of 1 foot passes in her last tournament, but usually it's more like 5 or 6 feet. 

I totally understand how terrible you feel, I'd be horrified if my dog did that too. But if this club feels like he has potential in the sport, I'd give it another try. But maybe slow down the progression so he has a chance to succeed, and fewer opportunities to fail.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I've never seen flyball and just watched some videos on youtube. I see what you mean about passing. Sometimes we did something like this on the agility A-frames at training. Once Molly got a little snarly, but has not repeated that behavior. Then another time at training, a new young dog ran way too fast at Molly. She started in on the dog, and it sounded terrible, but no fur flew or bite wounds. I felt really, really bad. It was the new dogs 1st day and I was afraid it's owner would not return because of me (they did). We took a time out off the field, and our trainer then got all the dogs and owners in a circle and asked them to raise their hands if their dog ever got naughty like mine - well over half the group raised their hands. So as others have said, dogs will be dogs. Definitely go to your last class, it seems like your trainer has a good plan, sounds like yours is not the very first dog to behave this way.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

fuzzybunny said:


> I certainly don't want a repeat performance. I think we likely all have stories of our dog(s) being attacked or at the very least on the receiving end of inappropriate behaviour, Jazz included. I have faith in the facility and trainers and don't doubt that their blockades will work. Jazz is not aggressive in everyday life. This is a first. Obviously the sport is very high stimulus and my fear is how will we truly know his passing is sound proof. Assuming down the road the instructors think he's ready to remove the blockade, I fear for that dog he's passing that first time. What if he's not ready? I don't want to put another dog in that situation. He did not bite this German Shepherd but to me that is irrelevant. He scared the living crap out of an innocent dog. I really want to pursue this with him but I obviously want to be responsible and safe as well.
> 
> *I'm thinking I may call the trainer this week and talk to her. I'll ask her how the owner of the GSD feels about me coming to the last class. I also want to know how the dog is doing. If she doesn't want me there then I'll skip it. I'll also express my concerns to the trainer about the future and see how she responds and how she says we'll handle it. Keeping the dogs' safe is the most important thing.*


*
*
Very considerate of you. We've been on the "receiving" end with Zoey 3 times, twice in one class with the same large male GSD. The owner/dog were removed. We understand poop happens, but we would have liked to hear at least something from the owner.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Thank you for all the feedback and I do appreciate everyone's perspective. I'll keep you posted on the situation.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not totally clear on what happened....you say your dog was "passing" so you mean both dogs were in the SAME lane and your dog was passing in, like they do during a real race? If so I'm not sure how barriers could be used, with dogs already passing in the same lane.

If they invited you back I would go back. These things happen. To me the issue is that you have not been going that long and are already passing into other dogs. Nikon has already competed in three tournaments and just last month started passing into another dog (he's always been fine with dogs passing into him). When Pan did his first pass into another dog they collided hard. There was no attack or bite but you could hear the wind get knocked out of both of them. I'm very cautious with passes. Our trainer/captain is always shouting at me to go, go! and I'm always passing late. Nikon did a two foot pass last week and I probably had my eyes closed (especially since he passed into a 10lb mini-Aussie!). When it comes to passing I really have to trust my dog and our team captain and just let go when she says so, but I've now seen her train enough dogs to trust that she's not rushing my dog and I know that I am a very cautious, risk-averse person which is now getting in the way of my dog's progress. He cannot run the lead-off spot forever and he's really not the best dog for it.

I appreciate the feedback here but I wonder how many of you actually do flyball? I'm not saying dogs are getting attacked all the time but it's generally not a sport for weak nerved dogs or weak nerved dogs or weak nerved people. Dogs that have already been attacked and are now wary around other dogs wouldn't be participating in the first place. I'm guessing the "attack" here is not the same as what a lot of you are describing (being out and about with your dog and getting attacked). These dogs are in a high, sometimes frenzied state of drive and these are not calculated attacks. I'm not saying it makes it OK but in order to fix this issue you need to understand flyball and the training, it's not the same as dealing with an attack when you are at the dog park or out on a walk.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, when I started, we simulated passes from day one but not using actual dogs. At our first place we had these life-sized stuffed dogs that we placed in the lane to force the dog into the runback lane when doing recalls. Then we just had people stand there or hold a small ring gate and we make sure to have new handlers always use the runback lane for doing recalls so by the time the dog is ready to start working passes, it is natural for them to move over and yield the lane. How and when we start real passes depends on the dog. Nikon only has eyes for me so he's never had an issue with dogs passing into him, even close or early passes. Pan on the other hand would drop his ball early with a close pass into him so he started out by passing into other dogs (running last) whereas Nikon struggled passing into another dog and is just now getting comfortable with that. Falon's Kastle has never shown issues passing either way so it only took him a week or two of passing in practice before he was reliable in any spot on the team.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm not totally clear on what happened....you say your dog was "passing" so you mean both dogs were in the SAME lane and your dog was passing in, like they do during a real race? If so I'm not sure how barriers could be used, with dogs already passing in the same lane.


We were not passing using the same lane. Imagine two lanes side by side and two jumps in Dog A's lane and 2 jumps in Dog B's lane. They would put a barrier between the two lanes to prevent it from happening again. I appreciate your response as someone who has done Flyball before and understands the frenzied state the dogs can get into. You're right, this wasn't the same as a fight or attack at the dog park. What bothers me most is that I know the GSD was very soft and that made me feel worse.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Liesje said:


> OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.


O.k., that makes sense. Would it be alright if I PM you?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

sure


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

fuzzybunny said:


> We were not passing using the same lane. Imagine two lanes side by side and two jumps in Dog A's lane and 2 jumps in Dog B's lane. They would put a barrier between the two lanes to prevent it from happening again.


Ah, I misunderstood - "passing" would be in the same lane, as the dogs would do when running on a team together, what you're referring to is a "side by side" (SBS) run, where you've got two dogs running in lanes next to each other, like they would when racing against another team. Yes, what we do is put plastic mesh fencing between the lanes if we've got a chaser, or we completely encase the lane with a channel of plastic fencing. 



Liesje said:


> OK. I would go back to working your dog alone for a few times, then what we do is just get another dog out, not even working. Sometimes I bring my dog Coke along (he doesn't do flyball) and we just *stand* in the other lane while the dog works, or we do some really low-key obedience so we are moving but not real attractive. Since Coke is real dog-friendly there won't be a fight if the other dog breaks and comes over. We slowly work up to the other dog being OK working side by side. Luna, the dog I fostered has been coming since July and is still working all by herself, no other dog on the floor. For some dogs this isn't necessary but for dogs that want to run or chase they need to have a really clear understanding of what is going on before another dog comes in.


That's what we do too. We'll have a dog that's just "out", not doing anything in particular. At first the other dog would be not all that close, and either just standing there, or maybe in a down. If that's okay, we would bring the other dog closer, or have them start moving around more. When Halo is the dog who's out while a green dog trains, I'll start with her in a down stay near me, and then have her standing doing a series of hand touches, so she's moving around quite a bit and even jumping up to target my hand. Only when dogs are successful at a particular level of distraction do we progress to the next level. 

And like Lies with Coke, we always use a solid dog as our distraction, we don't run two green dogs together. Also, if we're doing SBS runs over the jumps we would start the green dog first, so the solid dog is running behind them and not out in front or right next to them so they can see them. There are all sorts of strategies to make this work for Fuzzy if you and the club are committed to working on it with you. Chasing is such a common issue in the sport that most flyball people don't freak out about it, and they are usually willing to work on it with a dog that has potential. 

I'm lucky that Halo only chased a couple of times in class and at practice. The last time she did it the other owner yelled at Halo and whacked her in the head a few times with her tug, and that was the end of that, lol!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Chasing is such a common issue in the sport that most flyball people don't freak out about it, and they are usually willing to work on it with a dog that has potential.


This is exactly it. Since I wasn't there I'm hesitant to say it was an "attack". Given the nature of the sport and the fact that the dog was invited back even after the incident I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt. The dog just needs more work on focus and learning what flyball is all about (though ironically my team has intentionally had one dog chase another dog to build more speed and drive!).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We do chase power jumping, lol! All our dogs seem to love it, and so far there hasn't been any trouble with dogs not going to their handler in the runback area, and continuing to chase the other dog instead. We pull the box, put 8 jumps in a row instead of 4, and have two restrainers at one end. The two handlers pass off their dogs to the restrainers and then run down to the other end. Either the faster dog goes first and the second dog is sent right behind, or with dogs of similar speeds, the first dog gets a slightly bigger head start, and the second dog is basically chasing the first dog through the jumps. 

A passing exercise we do that the dogs all like is to put two jumps together with the middle uprights taken out, so it's like one double wide jump. We set up 4 of these in a row, and then string plastic mesh fencing down the middle of the lane, between the two halves of the jumps. We do opposite direction restrained recalls with the dogs going at the same time - they each have a full width jump, and the fencing keeps the dogs apart, but they are passing right next to each other at full speed. It gets them used to flying past another dog while being totally safe, so it builds confidence. 

Another exercise we do is to split the lane with the same long plastic mesh fencing, back in the runback area. We do full runs, starting with the dogs on the right side and catching them on the other side when they run back. It's good for lane hogs (like Halo!!!), and would also be good for chasers if the fence goes right up to the first jump.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

He definitely didn't just chase the dog. He was aggressive about the dog running near him. There was no bite but he basically jumped it with his mouth open and making those nasty dog sounds they do. If he had simply chased it I wouldn't be upset because we'd just have to work on focus. It's the fact that he was aggressive about it that upsets me. I'll see what the instructor says. I emailed them yesterday but haven't heard back yet because of the holiday.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I really think he needs more time before you can evaluate it. To me it sounds like he was rushed and this is not your fault or his. It almost seems like the instructor knows this which is why they said it was OK and that you were invited back. I always do what my instructor says and she trusts my dog more than I do!

Nikon sounds similar to Jazz. I NEVER would have thought he could even do flyball for fun, let alone have three titles already and be comfortable running around off leash with the other dogs. Because of his prey drive and his higher level of protectiveness over his/our personal space I still watch him closely. I'm not one that just throws the door open and lets my dogs dart around in circles while we're getting setup, if he is not actively working then he is expected to be with me in heel position but this is not a problem since he is SO ball driven and I use his favorite ball as his reward. The longer we do flyball, the more clear he is about what he is doing. He's always had tunnel vision for me and his reward so we have that to our advantage. He has no desire to interact with the other dogs it's just a matter of getting him comfortable working on what is essentially a relay team and not freaking out when dogs are in what he might consider his personal space. So far the only dog he's made a grab at has been Pan (my other dog), lol. Both of them needed to learn passes so we raced them together in training since they are both big and fast. No one wanted to volunteer their dainty little dog to train my dogs to pass, lol.

Also when the dogs are revved up in drive they are more like to take jabs at each other. I've seen the same thing in agility and luckily had a really good instructor who was careful to make sure people were physically holding their dogs out of the way while someone else was taking a turn because at agility we had a few instances of people letting their dogs run amuck and get in the face of other dogs that were trying to work in drive.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm trying flyball with my dog and this is my worst fear! Not that she'll be attacked, but that she'll do the attacking!

She is a bit dog-reactive. Mostly wants to play, but a couple of times, she's had a dog approach her and it got a bit snarly. Right now we're working her with another dog, but she goes, then the other dog goes. But when the other dog goes, she's barking and pulling toward it. She just gets too riled up.

My trainer has also said not to worry that it's normal, but I totally understand your fear.

I'd say, if your trainer is willing to work with you on it, keep at it. Maybe your trainer will pair your dog up with one of their dogs if they really feel it's fixable, so that if something happens it's with their dog (obviously they still feel comfortable working with your dog), not another teammates.


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