# Conflicting Advice on Harness/Collars



## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

I started working with a GSD trainer after seeing a certified behaviorist for my male rescue Blitzen. Among a lot of other things, I'm working on training him to walk at my side with a slack lead and not pull excitedly when outdoors. He loves to run and has high energy. On my first visit to the behaviorist, she said lose the leather collar, never ever use a prong collar on a anxious dog like this and use a gentle leader harness. So that's what I've been using on walks. Most walks involve endless commands to heel coupled with repeated changes in direction and stopping until he stops pulling. He's quite good at stopping when I stop, but 5 steps later he's pulling again or circles back around me so he can keep pacing rather than wait for me to catch up. He's got huge drive to run/chase/retrieve.

When I started class at a K9 training facility recently, the GSD trainer (who has trained and competed with GSDs since the 90's) evaluated my dog and our progress and said, "Lose the harness, you have zero control with it. You need a nylon braided slip collar or a prong collar to control this boy while training." I said I did not want to use a prong collar, so she recommended a slip collar, and instructed me on how to use it in training. 
I must say that his compliance instantly improved, once he realized what felt good and what didn't. And we seem to be making progress working thru things that previously triggered out of control behavior. But I don't want to make a mistake here and my goal is to be able to walk with a slack lead and a normal collar. Any advice?


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I am not a dog trainer and just try to give advice that has worked for me. I am a 61 yr old arthritic woman and if it were not for the prong collar I would never be able to walk my lab or my gsd. They self correct and do not pull when walking and the results are instantaneous, it is a miracle tool for me.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Lose the harness. I tried that once and had no control with my dog. When we started training we used a prong and for casual walks. With lots of training, and then moving to more positive reinforcement training (on my own, not with trainer) I was able to remove the prong when she got to be about 2 yrs old.

My daughter still uses the prong when casual walking because she has strength only on her left arm, kind of like someone who's had a stroke, and it gives her excellent control, she is also petite and the dog is 87lbs.

Make sure your new trainer shows you how to place the prong properly on the dog.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Go with what is comfortable for you and the dog. If you are not making progress with the harness then you need to re-evaluate the way you are using the tool and if you are really teaching the dog anything. I find most people don't stop to think about what is actually reinforcing. I also instruct people not to wait until the dog starts pulling to change directions. If while you are training loose leash walking, you change direction or pace BEFORE the dog starts pulling, it encourages them to pay more attention to you. You should only need to issue a command ONCE no matter the tool you are using. 

If you don't want to use the prong, don't use it but find a trainer that can actually teach you how to properly reinforce loose leash walking on harness/flat collar.

If you want to use the prong, again, make sure the trainer can show you how to properly correct and reinforce loose leash walking. 

The end goal should be the same no matter the tool - a dog that walks nicely and pays attention to you, not the equipment they are wearing.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the dog needs to be trained to heel properly.....for that a prong is a good tool.....it self corrects and really is not severe! put a prong around your arm wtih a coat on and feel the pressure....it does not cause damage because the dog never chokes on it like any kind of choker/slip....the c/s can cause trachea damage if the dog panics and fights or the handler is too strong with it....


Harnesses are wonderful tools for certain things....I love them for backtying dogs in training and for baby pups - but they are not a good choice at all for teaching a dog to walk properly on a leash....

Lee


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Sigh. A properly fitted front clip harness (not a back) is a fine tool for teaching a dog to walk properly (and yes even a heel). Many trainers across the country use them with dogs of all ages and sizes and get the results they want. A prong is not the only way and should not be used to simply self correct and hope the dog understands, there is active teaching that needs to be done.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I use a sense-ation harness(granted he is not old enough for a prong) but it has been amazing... On a flat collar or martingale he can literally almost drag me across the floor even at barely 5 months old(I am a small person though). The company is really good too and stands behind their product. If you're not comfortable with a prong, I would look into a sense-ation while teaching loose leash walking and a proper heel. 

I recommend clipping the lead to the collar AND the harness at the same time for even more control over the dog.

Amazon.com: sense-ation dog harness


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I am starting obedience classes with my non-GSD pup next week. Had orientation last night. We will be using prong collars - every pup, every breed. I am thrilled. I think it is a great tool when used properly. It was a lifesaver for me, when my DA GSD was young.

I really don't understand why some people are so opposed to them. Obviously, every tool doesn't work for every dog, but what is the harm in trying it?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I am starting obedience classes with my non-GSD pup next week. Had orientation last night. We will be using prong collars - every pup, every breed. I am thrilled. I think it is a great tool when used properly. It was a lifesaver for me, when my DA GSD was young.
> 
> I really don't understand why some people are so opposed to them. Obviously, every tool doesn't work for every dog, but what is the harm in trying it?


For me, I'm not opposed to them but I'm sure not going to use one on a little puppy. My pup will be six months in late Feb, might try one then but for now the harness I'm using is working perfectly for me.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Also not opposed to them. Have used them and will instruct people on how to properly use them.

_I_ really don't understand why some people are so adamant that it's the only way to handle a GSD or train a dog to heel. What is the harm in not wanting using one?


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## FORRUGER (Jan 3, 2006)

I'd rather have a prong collar on my dogs while walking them and not have to use it then need one and not have it on. Used properly, it's an invaluable training tool as long as your dog is taught proper heeling, on loose lead while he is wearing one.


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

I second the front-clip harness advice. Mine is very effective. I am a 5'8" woman of average strength, and I can restrain an excited 90 lb Heinz with one hand if I absolutely have to. I even accidentally pulled him off his feet once - he unexpectedly lunged at a dog barking behind a fence and I strongly corrected with a big yank on the lead. He completely lost his footing and went down on his side and I felt terrible about it. But he hasn't tried that again. 

Oddly enough, it's great for a quick, sharp correction (and it releases as soon as the dog does), but a slow lean (a wriggle towards another dog in the waiting room, for instance) is harder to stop once it gets going. So it's not a substitute for good leash manners, but it certainly helps instill them!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Use whatever crutch/tool that is effective for you and your dog. Ideally, work toward control through your handling *alone*. A perfect trainer/handler can have absolute obedience off lead with no tools. We all use these various tools to help us make up for our all imperfect handling


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

Thanks for all the helpful responses. Here's an update. On my trainer's recommendation I switched from the harness to a slip collar and then a week later to a prong collar which I am still using. I still use the harness to secure my dog in the back of the wagon for trips. But with the harness he was impervious to correction. His head was free to turn where ever he wanted. Using the front clip just made his constant circling around worse and caused him to end up walking into me. The slip collar was effective in some ways but not in others. I tried it two ways - attaching to the stationary ring and to the slip ring. Without question it stops my dog. But it has the potential to hurt - in one instance while walking down stairs my dog bounded down ahead of me a few steps and momentarily hung himself. He never tried that again, but it was a miserable moment. I also found it difficult to give corrections with it - you have to pull upwards (not jerk) and hold for a correction and I found that difficult to do on a walk when the dog keeps putting forward tension on the lead. I found the prong easier for me to work consistently and the amount of correction can be controlled. But absolutely do not leave it on unless you are directly training the dog - it can easily get hung up on fences, wire cages and the like. Most importantly, my dog STOPS the behavior when corrected with it. He knows when its on and respects it and with it he is learning how to walk nicely beside me and to pay attention to me when there are distractions. Our walks have quickly gotten much better after months of exasperating walks with a harness. Do I like using the prong? No. But I will until I can phase it out for a normal leather collar.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

StephenV said:


> Thanks for all the helpful responses. Here's an update. On my trainer's recommendation I switched from the harness to a slip collar and then a week later to a prong collar which I am still using. I still use the harness to secure my dog in the back of the wagon for trips. But with the harness he was impervious to correction. His head was free to turn where ever he wanted. Using the front clip just made his constant circling around worse and caused him to end up walking into me. The slip collar was effective in some ways but not in others. I tried it two ways - attaching to the stationary ring and to the slip ring. Without question it stops my dog. But it has the potential to hurt - in one instance while walking down stairs my dog bounded down ahead of me a few steps and momentarily hung himself. He never tried that again, but it was a miserable moment. I also found it difficult to give corrections with it - you have to pull upwards (not jerk) and hold for a correction and I found that difficult to do on a walk when the dog keeps putting forward tension on the lead. I found the prong easier for me to work consistently and the amount of correction can be controlled. But absolutely do not leave it on unless you are directly training the dog - it can easily get hung up on fences, wire cages and the like. Most importantly, my dog STOPS the behavior when corrected with it. He knows when its on and respects it and with it he is learning how to walk nicely beside me and to pay attention to me when there are distractions. Our walks have quickly gotten much better after months of exasperating walks with a harness. Do I like using the prong? No. But I will until I can phase it out for a normal leather collar.


You should put it on ever so often when you're together but never use it, and not put it on/take it off so close to the start/end of training. He *will* learn he doesn't need to listen when the prong is not on.


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

good tip, thank you!


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