# King Shepherds?



## Lanas Father (Jul 13, 2011)

Im currently at the vet and i see this long haired german shepherd dog, Pretty large to. He tells me its a King sheperd -.- is he forreal or is he 
pulling my leg?



(ill see if he lets me take a picture of the dog lol)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes, someone thought GSDs were not big enough so they mixed them with several larger breeds (like livestock guardians) and started calling them "King Shepherds"
Here's some info:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/150287-king-shepherd.html


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lanas Father said:


> Im currently at the vet and i see this long haired german shepherd dog, Pretty large to. He tells me its a King sheperd -.- is he forreal or is he pulling my leg?


Probably for real.  King and Shiloh shepherds are both pretty big compared to a standard GSD.


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## Lanas Father (Jul 13, 2011)

These dogs are so beautiful =)

Starfire King Shepherds


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lanas Father said:


> These dogs are so beautiful =)
> 
> Starfire King Shepherds


Well, if you like that sort of thing, I guess that's pretty much the sort of thing you'd like.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

If I remember correctly, I don't believe King Shepherds are actually in the GSD family. It's a completely different breed....or was that Shiloh Shepherds...maybe both?


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## Lanas Father (Jul 13, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Well, if you like that sort of thing, I guess that's pretty much the sort of thing you'd like.


 
I don't mean to offend anyone. Wouldn't that be a good thing the whole lower risk of health problems?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

*The King Shepherd is a breed in development.*

A King Shepherd resembles a large German Shepherd Dog. The breed was originally developed on the East Coast using American bred German Shepherds, crossed to flock guardians, which were then crossed with European bred German Shepherd dogs. The intent was to develop a superior family companion. What makes a breed a "rare breed"? Typically in the US, a rare breed is classified as a breed which does not have AKC recognition; a breed which is newly developed or is still in the process of being refined; a breed which is in development; a breed which has very small numbers; a breed which may be AKC recognized, but does not conform to the AKC standard of said breed or a breed that is developed by breeding certain deviant characteristics of an otherwise known AKC breed.

Now how is that different from any other mutt or "designer breed"? :thinking:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know why they are designated rare breed , when they are modern limited supply numbers.
I belong to the American Rare Breeds Conservancy and Rare Breeds Canada which attempt to keep heritage stock alive -- pigs , turkeys , chickens , horses, cattle .
There are seed saver societies as well.

You like that size? get a Leonberger.

Carmen


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lanas Father said:


> I don't mean to offend anyone. Wouldn't that be a good thing the whole lower risk of health problems?


You didn't offend me at all. What I was saying is that I personally don't like King Shepherds, but if they're what you like, I guess you'd like them. I don't hate them and I'm not offended by them, I just don't like them, just like I don't much care for min-pins or bassets. But if you like that sort of dog, it's the sort of dog you'd like.  I don't get what you're asking about the risk of health problems?


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## neiltus (Mar 10, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Well, if you like that sort of thing, I guess that's pretty much the sort of thing you'd like.


Nicely said...!!! And my thoughts exactly.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'm not sure I understand the point of crossing a herding breed with an LGD breed. They are totally at odds with respect to their temperament, drive, and working style. An LGD bonds with the livestock, lives with them, and protects them from predators. Herding dogs use their prey drive to gather, move, and control the stock, so in a sense, they ARE predators. I cannot see the point of crossing the two, unless the point is to make an LGD that looks like a GSD, and I haven't heard of anyone using King Shepherds to protect their flocks.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I think the difference would be that mutts/designer dogs don't "breed true."

The King Shepherds, at least to my knowledge, breed true - if you breed a male to a female you get a litter of puppies that look and act and have similar health to the parents.

A, say, "labradoodle", on the other hand, is just a first generation cross between two unrelated breeds. Not an actual breed. I'm not defending/promoting the Kings or anything, I've got a completely indifferent opinion about them. That's just my observation on the matter. I don't really know very much about them.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Freestep said:


> I'm not sure I understand the point of crossing a herding breed with an LGD breed. They are totally at odds with respect to their temperament, drive, and working style. An LGD bonds with the livestock, lives with them, and protects them from predators. Herding dogs use their prey drive to gather, move, and control the stock, so in a sense, they ARE predators. I cannot see the point of crossing the two, unless the point is to make an LGD that looks like a GSD, and I haven't heard of anyone using King Shepherds to protect their flocks.


Size. That's what they're trying to accomplish by crossing the two.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

So someone just decided they wanted a larger size GSD, so crossbred them to increase size? 

There's got to be more to it than that, I would think. Then again, people never cease to amaze me with the silly things they will do.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Freestep said:


> So someone just decided they wanted a larger size GSD, so crossbred them to increase size?


Yes. As far as I can find they were not bred with working skills in mind, but rather to make a large, longhaired Shepherd looking dog who would be a 'good companion'.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Freestep said:


> So someone just decided they wanted a larger size GSD, so crossbred them to increase size?
> 
> There's got to be more to it than that, I would think. Then again, people never cease to amaze me with the silly things they will do.


 
they wanted a much larger shepherd without the energy and strong desires to do this or that. they were merely started for those who want the larger shepherd looking dog without all the extra 'baggage' of drive, energy and craziness that can come with puppyhood in a GSD pup. They wanted the looks but not the general attitude of a shepherd. I wouldnt mind if they were that size and actual GSDs (just my opinion) and still had the same drives and such but they're glorified couch potatoes because several people decided they wanted something else and went for it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I don't know why they are designated rare breed , when they are modern limited supply numbers.
> I belong to the American Rare Breeds Conservancy and Rare Breeds Canada which attempt to keep heritage stock alive -- pigs , turkeys , chickens , horses, cattle .
> There are seed saver societies as well.
> 
> ...


 
I just met my first Leonburger the other night in an obedience class - 12 mo Male. BIG dog!! Very laid back and friendly dog!


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## aManicCookie (Apr 23, 2011)

lol I think my 70 pound 8 month old GSD is more than enough dog for me. I couldn't imagine having a King Shepherd. I always giggle though when people think he's a "runt" or "small", they must have never had a 70 pound dog wrestle and jump up in their lap.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

KZoppa said:


> they wanted a much larger shepherd without the energy and strong desires to do this or that. they were merely started for those who want the larger shepherd looking dog without all the extra 'baggage' of drive, energy and craziness that can come with puppyhood in a GSD pup. They wanted the looks but not the general attitude of a shepherd. I wouldnt mind if they were that size and actual GSDs (just my opinion) and still had the same drives and such but they're glorified couch potatoes because several people decided they wanted something else and went for it.


See, I disagree with you. If people want a big, hairy, laid-back couch potato dog that looks like a German Shepherd, I'm glad they created a separate breed. I'd much rather have that than have people breeding registered German Shepherds that are longhaired, 120lb couch potatoes.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Emoore said:


> See, I disagree with you. If people want a big, hairy, laid-back couch potato dog that looks like a German Shepherd, I'm glad they created a separate breed. I'd much rather have that than have people breeding registered German Shepherds that are longhaired, 120lb couch potatoes.


Or treating a high-energy, high-drive dog as a couch potato. The shelters are full of examples of what happens when people do that.

ETA: But I appreciate that the example you brought up would be far more devastating for the GSD breed as a whole. You'd have scores of animals that don't conform even closely to GSD breed standards being registered and bred as GSDs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

from what I understand, the Kings came in when they split from the Shilohs..decided to make their "own" breed. 

Sure they are beautiful, but if I wanted a big hairy dog, I'd get a leonberger and maybe tape his ears up


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> from what I understand, the Kings came in when they split from the Shilohs..decided to make their "own" breed.


And then didn't the Kings originally add purebred GSD's back into the mix after the split or no?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> they wanted a much larger shepherd without the energy and strong desires to do this or that. they were merely started for those who want the larger shepherd looking dog without all the extra 'baggage' of drive, energy and craziness that can come with puppyhood in a GSD pup. They wanted the looks but not the general attitude of a shepherd. I wouldnt mind if they were that size and actual GSDs (just my opinion) and still had the same drives and such but they're glorified couch potatoes because several people decided they wanted something else and went for it.





Emoore said:


> See, I disagree with you. If people want a big, hairy, laid-back couch potato dog that looks like a German Shepherd, I'm glad they created a separate breed. I'd much rather have that than have people breeding registered German Shepherds that are longhaired, 120lb couch potatoes.


 
i'm not sure you understood my meaning. I myself prefer the larger side of GSDs which is why i'd rather have males than females but it hasnt worked out for me yet. But thats how i've always been. HOWEVER, i'm also perfectly fine with the energy and general requirements to handle the breed. Others were not okay with that and thus the King Shepherd. A large beast of dog that may as well be a lap dog trapped in a giant body. people wanted the LOOK of the GSD without all the stuff we as GSD owners prefer and like, especially since the majority on this board are working line fans and work the dogs. At least someone decided to 'work on' the king shepherd instead of messing around with GSDs and screwing them up for the rest of us. They can get that GSD look without all the "works" of an actual GSD. Does that make sense?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I see what you're saying. I'm picking up what you're throwing down. I smell what you're cookin'.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I see what you're saying. I'm picking up what you're throwing down. I smell what you're cookin'.


 
lol


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I've tried to keep an open mind, but I still don't _get_ why the GSD doesn't come in different sizes. Other than there is a standard, a bigger dog wouldn't be good at schH, etc.
They're already so versatile, it would be even more useful if some were larger and could add to the list of things they're capable of. Like being a LSG (livestock guardian) breed.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> I've tried to keep an open mind, but I still don't _get_ why the GSD doesn't come in different sizes. Other than there is a standard, a bigger dog wouldn't be good at schH, etc.
> They're already so versatile, it would be even more useful if some were larger and could add to the list of things they're capable of. Like being a LSG (livestock guardian) breed.


I'm confused.... are you saying you want there to be different size varieties in the GSD, like there are in Poodles and Schnauzers?

Just because a dog is big doesn't mean it will make a good livestock guardian. They have a special temperament that sets them apart from other dogs, and especially GSDs. LGDs have low prey drive, they are independent thinkers, extremely loyal and protective of their flock and territory, yet generally rather benign in neutral territory. They are problem-solvers, but not the kind of dog that you can easily do a high level of obedience with. People have done it, but you have to be a very creative, intuitive, and patient trainer.

I have an Akbash dog and he is almost a different species than a GSD. Love him to death. Probably the most intelligent dog I have ever owned. He is fairly obedient for an LGD; he comes when called about 90% of the time, will sit on command eventually, and will give "high fives" for a treat. But I can't imagine a GSD with his temperament; they are like polar opposites, which is probably why he gets along so well with my GSDs. They want totally different things out of life. All Luka wants to do is play ball and take directions from me. Whaley couldn't care less about a ball, and though he clearly loves us, he couldn't care less about "pleasing" humans. He listens to me when he knows it's in his best interest, but knows what his job is--guarding the stock--and that's his #1 priority, all the time.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I'm confused.... are you saying you want there to be different size varieties in the GSD, like there are in Poodles and Schnauzers?
> 
> Just because a dog is big doesn't mean it will make a good livestock guardian. They have a special temperament that sets them apart from other dogs, and especially GSDs. LGDs have low prey drive, they are independent thinkers, extremely loyal and protective of their flock and territory, yet generally rather benign in neutral territory. They are problem-solvers, but not the kind of dog that you can easily do a high level of obedience with. People have done it, but you have to be a very creative, intuitive, and patient trainer.
> 
> I have an Akbash dog and he is almost a different species than a GSD. Love him to death. Probably the most intelligent dog I have ever owned. He is fairly obedient for an LGD; he comes when called about 90% of the time, will sit on command eventually, and will give "high fives" for a treat. But I can't imagine a GSD with his temperament; they are like polar opposites, which is probably why he gets along so well with my GSDs. They want totally different things out of life. All Luka wants to do is play ball and take directions from me. Whaley couldn't care less about a ball, and though he clearly loves us, he couldn't care less about "pleasing" humans. He listens to me when he knows it's in his best interest, but knows what his job is--guarding the stock--and that's his #1 priority, all the time.


Exactly


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## Chaiah (Jul 27, 2011)

*GSD or King Shepherd*



Lanas Father said:


> Im currently at the vet and i see this long haired german shepherd dog, Pretty large to. He tells me its a King sheperd -.- is he forreal or is he pulling my leg?
> (ill see if he lets me take a picture of the dog lol)


I have three King Shepherds and grew up with GSDs - and love both. However, it seems that over the years the GSD has gotten a bit smaller and the American GSD has developed some serious hip issues due to their croup... The King Shep is a separate breed (rare breed) in which German GSDs were used as the foundation. Hence, they look much like those dogs - and when dna tests are run, they do return as GSDs.

My 4.5 yr old bitch is 30" at the shoulder and she weighs about 115-120 lbs. Our 2.5 yr old bitch is much smaller at about 25" at the shoulder and 85 lbs. Our puppy - 1.5 yr old dog is over 30" at the shoulder and over 100 lbs. He's going to be a big one.

King Sheps are very similar in temperament to GSDs, have similar variations in color, but they are quite a bit larger, and their croup is not as steep. There are other differences but those are the two major ones.

I am not sure if the dog you saw at your vet was, indeed a King Shepherd, as I have had others tell me theirs is - when in fact it was just a large GSD.

My dog is an incredible friend and amazing animal. 

I hope I have answered some of your questions. I am new here but can post pics of my three KS if you want to see the views.

Having grown up with a father who was a K9 officer - we had GSDs in our home - and I adore them. My dog is just as amazing but I am uncertain what direction the King Shepherd community is taking. As I do not breed, all I am concerned about is having a healthy GSD-type dog. 

King Shepherds range in size and there are two different groups who want different things. One wants herding and one wants guardian... I suppose it would be okay to have two separate groups. That being said, my dog is quite large and can turn on a dime if need be. She is fast, agile, and gorgeous to watch when playfully herding. She will also guard if need be - and the neighborhood children love her. (They keep asking if we have a saddle so they can ride her. ; ) )


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## Chaiah (Jul 27, 2011)

Draugr said:


> Or treating a high-energy, high-drive dog as a couch potato. The shelters are full of examples of what happens when people do that.
> 
> ETA: But I appreciate that the example you brought up would be far more devastating for the GSD breed as a whole. You'd have scores of animals that don't conform even closely to GSD breed standards being registered and bred as GSDs.


I agree - and this is not only immoral, but illegal, isn't it?

I think this has occurred across the board with many breeds - and, perhaps this is just an incorrect observation on my part, but it seems that the registries like the AKC do not keep a close enough look at their litters. Breeding is not a game - and when done wrong can produce disasters.

When my dog decides it is time to leave me... I want a GSD, again, and I will be looking VERY carefully at the litters produced - and the lines of the puppies. I guess that is why I am here. It's going to be a few years, but I want to know what I am getting instead of having some very bad surprises...


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Breeding for size is never a good or ethical thing.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Personally I like Kings and Shiloh's. But I think people need to try and get away from "they are just larger GSDs". They may have GSD in their foundation but this does not make them GSD.

You breed King and King you get King puppies..you breed Shiloh to Shiloh you get Shiloh puppies.

You breed a lab and a poodle you get a mutt.

The only thing I see that could be worked on would be what the dogs are bred for, a goal. Seems some people have a goal, some dont. Just a matter of getting it all lined up I think.

Part of creating a breed is to breed back into it (such as GSD) and eventually be able to breed true. Its how its done, its how the GSD was created, its how all breeds were created. 

Its all about perspective. Personally I respect King/Shiloh breeders who want to breed true and have their own breed, than those who throw two dogs together to get a designer breed they can sell. (really im a rescue person though lol)


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I wanted a big dog I would get a Saint Bernard, a Great Dane, etc. I think the Kings and Shiloh's are pretty, but I would more likely get them from a rescue. I don't feel right to get them from a breeder.


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## Chaiah (Jul 27, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> Its all about perspective. Personally I respect King/Shiloh breeders who want to breed true and have their own breed, than those who throw two dogs together to get a designer breed they can sell. (really im a rescue person though lol)


I agree wholeheartedly, for the most part. However, we rescued two dogs in the past ten years - and both experiences ended up very bittersweet. Very. Our GSD was a breeder and we adopted her when the breeder was done with her. (Makes me sad) We gave her tons of love and lots of medical care for about six years before she was diagnosed with DM. She was given 6 mos to live and we got our (my) first King Shep about the time of L's daignosis. L lived 10 mos before the DM finally robbed her and we had to say goodbye. The breeder who had her never took her to the vet and she had stenosis so badly in her ears that our vet couldn't even get the scope in to look. After almost 2 years of changing foods, we had allergy testing done and she was allergic to all sorts of things...

The dog we adopted two days after L passed away was from a non kill shelter. He is an Alsatian. We loved and cared for him, but he had some behavioral issues that we were not equipped to work around - as in he bit me - badly - several times. He came very close to being euthanized. He is now, however, a cadaver/search and rescue/ and apprehension dog for the FBI.

One of our KS was a kind of rescue. She is a sneaky bugger and did not get along with the pack she was with previously. Due to her small size and temperament issues it was determined by the breeder to not breed her. So, we fostered her, initially, and decided to keep her. She got into some nasty fights with my KS and ripped her some vicious slices in the legs and chest. I was able to treat the first open wound as it was a straight slice. However, the second time the bite wounds were more bite and tear... and her chest had about a dozen puncture wounds. We considered euthanizing when the foster bit my husband in the forearm as he tried to pull the girls apart. She dug all four canines into his arm and pulled. Little brat. Anyway, her estrus cycles were about 12 wks apart and I suspected that, although her hormone levels came back normal that she must be PMSing all the time. We spayed her and she has been an angel ever since.

I have to say that my dog is incredibly smart and a joy to have. Amazing, actually. However, because there are so many schisms within the KS community, I think I am going to return to the GSD. (Someone mentioned if they were going to have a large breed dog they would have a St. Bernard. Well, that was the other breed with which I grew up and I LOVED my Saint. However, I'd take a KS over a Saint any day.)

I want to build a good relationship with folks here and other places so that when time comes for us to get a puppy, we know whom to talk to and where to go...


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## Chaiah (Jul 27, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> If I wanted a big dog I would get a Saint Bernard, a Great Dane, etc. I think the Kings and Shiloh's are pretty, but I would more likely get them from a rescue. I don't feel right to get them from a breeder.


Jessie, you should never find a KS in a shelter. If you do, the owner who dropped them there has likely broken the contract signed with the sales of King Sheps. Reputable Kind Shepherd breeders, in my experience, want the dog returned and it is not to be given to anyone else without the permission of the breeder. I don't know if that same status applies for Shilohs, though.


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## Chaiah (Jul 27, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Breeding for size is never a good or ethical thing.


.
Breeding for size and other traits is done a lot when involved with a rare breed. GSDs used to be much larger than they are now but the military preferred the smaller sized GSDs with a steep croup to be able to crawl through tunnels. They bred for size - smaller size. Incorporating larger boned, bigger dogs to use as foundational dogs in a rare breed when it's one of the standards desired is necessary. In fact it is necessary in responsible breeding, period..

What is unethical, imo, is to just take two dogs (bitch and dog) and breed them, without taking into account the breed standard and genetic history. 

The most important criteria would be to avoid negative health issues. Second would be temperament. Third, physical attributes. There are other things, but if one is a reputable breeder, one has to take those things into consideration.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Chaiah said:


> Jessie, you should never find a KS in a shelter. If you do, the owner who dropped them there has likely broken the contract signed with the sales of King Sheps. Reputable Kind Shepherd breeders, in my experience, want the dog returned and it is not to be given to anyone else without the permission of the breeder. I don't know if that same status applies for Shilohs, though.


Here, many GSDs are oversized and fall under the KS category. But I still would rather get one from a rescue, as I ma sure there are King Shepherd rescues. I am still very cautious when it comes to breeders of rare breeds. I am starting to trust Shiloh Shepherds, but need more info. But if I want an oversized GSD I will look at shelters/rescues for them.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> However, it seems that over the years the GSD has gotten a bit smaller and the American GSD has developed some serious hip issues due to their croup...


I don't know where you got this info about hip problems due to croup shapes, but I would like to read more about it so that I can warn other breeders about the problem.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Chaiah said:


> Jessie, you should never find a KS in a shelter. If you do, the owner who dropped them there has likely broken the contract signed with the sales of King Sheps.


I had to laugh at this. In my nearly 10 years of working with rescue, we've found King Sheps, imports, dogs from top breeders, and plenty of other dogs whose owners broke the contract. It's not at all unusual. Unfortunately, requiring the dog be returned doesn't guarantee the dog will be returned. Unless the breeder microchips their puppies themselves, and the microchip doesn't migrate, the breeder will never know their pup ended up at a shelter.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Andaka said:


> I don't know where you got this info about hip problems due to croup shapes, but I would like to read more about it so that I can warn other breeders about the problem.


Not to mention that "the GSD has gotten smaller over the years" - wouldn't notice it in the ASL. Look in a Specials class esp. where every dog in it seems to be oversize!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Well, if you like that sort of thing, I guess that's pretty much the sort of thing you'd like.


Well said. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's why there are
different forums and different lines of GSDs. We all have our preferences.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

Zeros dad is a white king shepherd who knows how to open slider doors. haha Very big dog


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Chaiah said:


> .
> Breeding for size and other traits is done a lot when involved with a rare breed. GSDs used to be much larger than they are now but the military preferred the smaller sized GSDs with a steep croup to be able to crawl through tunnels. They bred for size - smaller size. Incorporating larger boned, bigger dogs to use as foundational dogs in a rare breed when it's one of the standards desired is necessary. In fact it is necessary in responsible breeding, period..


That's odd because I am under the assumption that by standard, a GSD is a *medium* sized working breed, always has been.(FCI German Shepherd Breed Standard)(German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club) If anything, I've noticed in the hands of greeders they have become grossly over standard. I have been involved in GSD rescue for 5 years now and have seen a lot of terrible structural examples of GSDs.



Chaiah said:


> What is unethical, imo, is to just take two dogs (bitch and dog) and breed them, without taking into account the breed standard and genetic history.


Soooo kind of like what these King & Shiloh Shepherd people did..they wanted the beautiful look of a GSD but wanted a mastiff sized dog, so they made it happen. Reminds me of what people did to the Siberian Husky, turned a working breed into a little ratty chihuahua looking dog with a husky coat. This was the first bit of information that popped up on a greeder's website when I did a quick google search.."Alaskan Klee Kai (AKK) is a rare breed of husky developed deliberately to be a companion-sized or lap-sized husky. *The breed fills the canine niche for people who love the husky look but cannot provide the care and exercise required by a full size husky*."

That is not an ethical agenda if you ask me.




Chaiah said:


> The most important criteria would be to avoid negative health issues. Second would be temperament. Third, physical attributes. There are other things, but if one is a reputable breeder, one has to take those things into consideration.


Breeding programs aimed at preserving temperament, health, and structure separate the ethical breeders from the unscrupulous ones. I don't believe though that a person who one day decided they wanted a mammoth of a GSD thought first about health and genetics, I bet the first thing that came to mind was "oooh I need to come up with a way to make the biggest GSD I can."


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

[QUOTESoooo kind of like what these King & Shiloh Shepherd people did..they wanted the beautiful look of a GSD but wanted a mastiff sized dog, so they made it happen.
Breeding programs aimed at preserving temperament, health, and structure separate the ethical breeders from the unscrupulous ones. I don't believe though that a person who one day decided they wanted a mammoth of a GSD thought first about health and genetics, I bet the first thing that came to mind was "oooh I need to come up with a way to make the biggest GSD I can."[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with this statement in regards to the Shiloh Shepherd. I would agree with you if the Shiloh Shepherd was being called an Oversized German Shepherd and leading people to believe they have the same temperament but there is a reason why the name was changed. They have their own standard which is different from the GSD and are now considered a different breed. They breed to their own standard to their breed and are not trying to pass off Shilohs as GSDs. If you read any material from the breed founder, Tina Barber, you'll realize she was very serious about her breeding and this breed. It wasn't created on a whim. She took the breed and breeding of the Shiloh as seriously as any of the GSD folks on this site.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

fuzzybunny said:


> [QUOTESoooo kind of like what these King & Shiloh Shepherd people did..they wanted the beautiful look of a GSD but wanted a mastiff sized dog, so they made it happen.
> Breeding programs aimed at preserving temperament, health, and structure separate the ethical breeders from the unscrupulous ones. I don't believe though that a person who one day decided they wanted a mammoth of a GSD thought first about health and genetics, I bet the first thing that came to mind was "oooh I need to come up with a way to make the biggest GSD I can."


I have to disagree with this statement in regards to the Shiloh Shepherd. I would agree with you if the Shiloh Shepherd was being called an Oversized German Shepherd and leading people to believe they have the same temperament but there is a reason why the name was changed. They have their own standard which is different from the GSD and are now considered a different breed. They breed to their own standard to their breed and are not trying to pass off Shilohs as GSDs.[/QUOTE]

That was going to be my next point, their justification for breeding mainly for size would be to deviate from the GSD standard and try to create an entirely different breed with a different standard. It reminds me of American Bullies. They've totally mutated the pit bull terrier and have now gone on to create their own registry for these structurally disturbing looking dogs. Kind of like doodles also.

Just a personal pet peeve. To each their own.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I have to disagree with this statement in regards to the Shiloh Shepherd. I would agree with you if the Shiloh Shepherd was being called an Oversized German Shepherd and leading people to believe they have the same temperament but there is a reason why the name was changed. They have their own standard which is different from the GSD and are now considered a different breed. They breed to their own standard to their breed and are not trying to pass off Shilohs as GSDs.


That was going to be my next point, their justification for breeding mainly for size would be to deviate from the GSD standard and try to create an entirely different breed with a different standard. It reminds me of American Bullies. They've totally mutated the pit bull terrier and have now gone on to create their own registry for these structurally disturbing looking dogs. Kind of like doodles also.

Just a personal pet peeve. To each their own.[/QUOTE]

The Shiloh's justification for breeding was not mainly for size. That is only one component amongst many. Temperament was equally and arguably more important in the creation of the breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> That is not an ethical agenda if you ask me.


If this is a new breed being developed what makes it unethical? 



> Breeding programs aimed at preserving temperament, health, and structure separate the ethical breeders from the unscrupulous ones. I don't believe though that a person who one day decided they wanted a mammoth of a GSD thought first about health and genetics, I bet the first thing that came to mind was "oooh I need to come up with a way to make the biggest GSD I can."


But unless you're the person who developed the breeds, (Kings and Shilohs) or are involved with those breeds, how can you say for sure that they aren't paying attention to temperament and health? Structure and temperament will both full under THEIR standards, not the GSD standard. 

Isn't this how we ended up with the GSD? Max found dogs he liked, (many of them were mixed breeds) bred them, refined the breeding and finally settled on the type he was looking for. He gave them a name, (GSD) and then started his own registry. 

The Shiloh's and the Kings are no different as far as I can see. Will they have longevity or ever be accepted into the AKC? Who knows...but it's not unethical to try and develop a new breed of dog is it?


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I agree WhiteShepherds. A note, Shiloh Shepherds were created in the sixties. I also hope they never get accepted by the AKC or CKC etc...because I believe that would be the destruction of the breed. Popularity causes backyard breeding and then it begins....IMO


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Then I have learned something new, thank you for enlightening me 

However, I don't really agree with this opening statement on the ISSDC's website:

"The Shiloh Shepherd is a true contemporary breed developed to fill the need for a Shepherd from the past, a protector, a best friend, a part of the family."


That's kind of weird because you can find plenty of GSDs who are great protectors, best friends, and great family members with ethical GSD breeders and in rescue too! Just leads me to believe it seems like they were created more for size with a GSD look to them, but as a SS owner you would of course know more than me!


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I think as long as there is a - and forget the rather callous term here - "market desire" for the type of dog you are desiring to create, and that you are focusing on keeping your new breed healthy and of sound temperament, you're honest with your buyers about what you are doing and particularly during development, honest about how closely your dogs may or may not conform to your ideal breed standards...you're tracking pedigrees, choosing sires/dams carefully to bring into your lines, all that, etc...you guys get the drift I'm sure...

No, I don't think there is anything unethical about that. If you're just throwing two random dogs together and calling it a breed (aka 'labradoodle' breeders and the like) then I've got a problem. Honestly is step number one in there.

We need *MORE* people who are interested in breeding well-bred dogs in this world, not less. I don't think it matters if that decides you are going to work with an existing breed or develop a new one, as long as you're honest and as long as you are dedicated to both producing healthy, sound dogs, and are willing to stand by your dogs and take an interest in the homes they go to and how they are doing.

I think that's even more important than usual to do if you're developing a new breed because there are so many people out there who either loudly say or silently think that breeding *any* dog is paramount to an unforgivable sin "because of the shelters." If you're doing a new breed you're just going to bring even more scrutiny down on yourself and bring even more naysayers out of the woodworks - for better or for worse. Good criticism is warranted, though, I think any new breed of dog ought to be very closely scrutinized.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The Shiloh's and the Kings are no different as far as I can see. Will they have longevity or ever be accepted into the AKC? Who knows...but it's not unethical to try and develop a new breed of dog is it?



To me it depends on the motive. There is nothing in this description of Shiloh Shepherds that you can't find in a GSD, except for the emphasis on gigantic size. I think the huge size is a main selling point for joe public because most people think bigger is better.

"Welcome to the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club, Inc. The Shiloh Shepherd is a true contemporary breed developed to fill the need for a Shepherd from the past, a protector, a best friend, a part of the family. Shiloh Shepherds are dogs of giant size, incredible intelligence and wholesome beauty. Shilohs portray a distinctive impression of nobility with superior intelligence, strength of character and a heart of gold."


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Draugr said:


> I think as long as there is a - and forget the rather callous term here - "market desire" for the type of dog you are desiring to create, and that you are focusing on keeping your new breed healthy and of sound temperament, you're honest with your buyers about what you are doing and particularly during development, honest about how closely your dogs may or may not conform to your ideal breed standards...you're tracking pedigrees, choosing sires/dams carefully to bring into your lines, all that, etc...you guys get the drift I'm sure...
> 
> No, I don't think there is anything unethical about that. If you're just throwing two random dogs together and calling it a breed (aka 'labradoodle' breeders and the like) then I've got a problem. Honestly is step number one in there.
> 
> ...


But doodle breeders _are_ trying to get their "breed" recognized by the AKC, they are working hard at it too. So would that then make them ethical, since the Shiloh people did it?


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I get where you're coming from with the "Shepherd from the past thing" and wish that would be changed or elaborated on. I believe that is a reference to the stable and sound temperament of the GSD back in the day before all the awful BYB started. Of course you can still get a stable GSD with sound temperament but there are a lot with bad temperaments from bad breeders thanks to BYB. The Shiloh hasn't been hit with temperament issues so much because they are not a recognized breed by the AKC.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> But doodle breeders _are_ trying to get their "breed" recognized by the AKC, they are working hard at it too. So would that then make them ethical, since the Shiloh people did it?


"Doodles" don't consistently beget themselves in health, temperament, or even appearance. They're first generation crosses between two dogs of different breeds. They aren't a breed in any sense of the word and they aren't ever going to be recognized by any breed club because of that. It's not a goal for these people to make a legitimate, healthy breed of sound temperament- their goal to make easy bucks without going into all the work that responsible breeding requires. Breed a litter, get rid of them at eight weeks, rinse, wash repeat. Easy as pie. They aren't going anywhere with their "doodle" mixes, there is no direction or purpose, zero effort to improve the "breed" and get more consistency, better health, sounder temperaments, etc, etc, etc - they're just purposefully going for the same, chaotic, unpredictable mixed breed litters every single time.

Now if someone actually wants to go ahead and make a legitimate breed out of them - and they're honest about it, they're researching pedigrees, choosing carefully sire and dam to get consistency in the breedings and focusing on improving health and temperament...and each time they create a litter, they are asking themselves "what am I added to my breed/soon-to-be-breed with this pairing?" then I applaud them.

~

With the Kings and Shilohs, at least from what I can tell, there is a clear idea of what they want out of the breedings, there is consistency, they do beget themselves in health in temperament, etc, etc. I would call that a breed - very distinct from "doodle" mixes. I can't speak for individual breeders as I've not really ever looked that closely at them, but just like with any other more-established breed, like the GSD, you can breed them responsibly or irresponsibly.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

fuzzybunny said:


> I get where you're coming from with the "Shepherd from the past thing" and wish that would be changed or elaborated on. I believe that is a reference to the stable and sound temperament of the GSD back in the day before all the awful BYB started. Of course you can still get a stable GSD with sound temperament but there are a lot with bad temperaments from bad breeders thanks to BYB. The Shiloh hasn't been hit with temperament issues so much because they are not a recognized breed by the AKC.


Agree, and it will be a sad day when that happens.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Draugr said:


> "Doodles" don't consistently beget themselves in health, temperament, or even appearance. They're first generation crosses between two dogs of different breeds. They aren't a breed in any sense of the word and they aren't ever going to be recognized by any breed club because of that. It's not a goal for these people to make a legitimate, healthy breed of sound temperament- their goal to make easy bucks without going into all the work that responsible breeding requires. Breed a litter, get rid of them at eight weeks, rinse, wash repeat. Easy as pie. They aren't going anywhere with their "doodle" mixes, there is no direction or purpose, zero effort to improve the "breed" and get more consistency, better health, sounder temperaments, etc, etc, etc - they're just purposefully going for the same, chaotic, unpredictable mixed breed litters every single time.
> 
> Now if someone actually wants to go ahead and make a legitimate breed out of them - and they're honest about it, they're researching pedigrees, choosing carefully sire and dam to get consistency in the breedings and focusing on improving health and temperament...and each time they create a litter, they are asking themselves "what am I added to my breed/soon-to-be-breed with this pairing?" then I applaud them.
> 
> ...


Can't edit anymore...just wanted to add, that's all JMHO. I realize a lot of people strongly object to breeding any new breeds and I guess I can understand where they are coming from...I just don't agree with that opinion, is all. I think every responsibly, well-bred litter of puppies is a good thing in an overall sense.

If that is more your mindset, go about it like someone else said earlier (can't remember your username, sorry) -> you can also look at it in a lesser-of-two-evils sense. It's going to be done, because people want it. That's just kind of how things go. Is it better to muck up an existing breed by breeding for the different standards people desire - or create a new, separate breed that is distinct from the existing breed?


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I get it, but yeah it is hard for me to come to terms with. Like if there is a big enough demand for it then it must be ok to cater to joe public. I just have an issue with that but it will happen regardless, change is inevitable. There are good arguments and points on both sides, I am not denying that. I just think we have virtually every breed available that can do any specific task a person desires, it all comes down to looks now in my opinion, no matter how else anyone wants to justify creating a new breed. We _could _change a lot of the health issues that plague certain breeds if more people were responsible breeders and we, as a society, cracked down on unethical breeders(that would take a LOT of change and commitment though, so I see why people want to take the easy way out and start over completely with a new breed) I am glad that there are people striving for a standard with health and temperament in mind. I am not toally against the creation of new breeds, it just has to be for a really good reason in my eyes. IMO the Shiloh Shepherds look just like GSDs, just humongous, so that is why I have a hard time accepting them as a totally new breed. It just looks like someone wanted a very over sized shepherd and made it happen.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have to disagree with this statement in regards to the Shiloh Shepherd. I would agree with you if the Shiloh Shepherd was being called an Oversized German Shepherd and leading people to believe they have the same temperament but there is a reason why the name was changed. They have their own standard which is different from the GSD and are now considered a different breed. They breed to their own standard to their breed and are not trying to pass off Shilohs as GSDs. If you read any material from the breed founder, Tina Barber, you'll realize she was very serious about her breeding and this breed. It wasn't created on a whim. She took the breed and breeding of the Shiloh as seriously as any of the GSD folks on this site.[/QUOTE]

See, thats why I would rather go to a Shiloh Shepherd breeder than a King Shepherd breeder. I wouldn't mind owning or getting a Shiloh, if I do I would be talking to you since you are more in the know than me.lol


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Shilohs (IMO) were developed to be like GSDs but more of the companion type and yes Tina wanted more size because it has been said that in her opinion the GSDs she grew up with were larger than what is being bred today. Shilohs tend on average to have far less drive than GSDs. They are companions. Some can herd and there is 1 doing Sch but that is so rare. Mostly they are bred to be larger, sound, stable companion dogs. I don't know as much about Kings since I have never delved that deep into them, but I have admired those I have seen at shows. You likely won't find a Shiloh breeder that breeds dogs that can work like GSDs do - that's just not the main focus in the breed. Health and stable temperaments are what they are striving to produce. Aloofness like in a GSD? Not as likely.


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## gaiamomma (Nov 30, 2011)

Id like to point out that ALL domestic canines are nothing but 'custom-bred mutts'... And quite frankly most 'pure bred' dogs have crazy health issues... If dogs that are cross bred arent to your liking take a look at you precious pure animal and think of how many generations of wild dogs ang cross breeding to get that beautiful animal... Personally i think most owners have their head up their butts, cross breeding is beneficial for the health and temperment of any pure bred dogs. My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older... Lets face it temperment and health improve when working dogs are crossed and fyi king shepherds are quite energetic, my pups mother was VERY enthusiastic when we met her, and ill admit that i was aprehensive about getting such a large breed, but they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working gaia is great with my son and the cats


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

gaiamomma said:


> Personally i think most owners have their head up their butts, cross breeding is beneficial for the health and temperment of any pure bred dogs. My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older... Lets face it temperment and health improve when working dogs are crossed


......hmmmmmm


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## gaiamomma (Nov 30, 2011)

One last thing... ALL dogs are just glorified couch potato versions of wolves and foxes, no matterhow hard they work they are still fed and sheltered by a human master and have it cushy compared to their wild realatives... Just saying and im not trying to offend anyone with my comments, only trying to open some eyes is all


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

gaiamomma said:


> Id like to point out that ALL domestic canines are nothing but 'custom-bred mutts'... And quite frankly most 'pure bred' dogs have crazy health issues... If dogs that are cross bred arent to your liking take a look at you precious pure animal and think of how many generations of wild dogs ang cross breeding to get that beautiful animal... Personally i think most owners have their head up their butts, cross breeding is beneficial for the health and temperment of any pure bred dogs. My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older... Lets face it temperment and health improve when working dogs are crossed and fyi king shepherds are quite energetic, my pups mother was VERY enthusiastic when we met her, and ill admit that i was aprehensive about getting such a large breed, but they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working gaia is great with my son and the cats


Oh really? Do you have any resources to back this up?Purebred dogs are no more prone to health issues than mixed breeds are. I see no reason to cross breed unless there is a REAL reason such as a better working dog.Oh you are planning on breeding her to Rottie? Well what titles do you plan on getting?(You said she is a puppy) What health tests will you have done for her? Her hips? What is your GOAL for this breeding?(Besides just making more mixed breeds and breeding to make cute puppies.)What testing and titling has the other dog had or going to have? I am pretty sure both Rotties and King Shepherds are prone to HD.Why choose a Rottie? There is WAY more to breeding than just putting two dogs together.



gaiamomma said:


> One last thing... ALL dogs are just glorified couch potato versions of wolves and foxes, no matterhow hard they work they are still fed and sheltered by a human master and have it cushy compared to their wild realatives... Just saying and im not trying to offend anyone with my comments, only trying to open some eyes is all



Excuse me? My dogs are not couch potatoes. How can you say ALL dogs when you have not met every single dog in the world? Foxes? 

I am pretty sure you have offended many with your ignorant comments. And why make your first posts in this thread?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gaiamomma said:


> id like to point out that all domestic canines are nothing but 'custom-bred mutts'... And quite frankly most 'pure bred' dogs have crazy health issues... If dogs that are cross bred arent to your liking take a look at you precious pure animal and think of how many generations of wild dogs ang cross breeding to get that beautiful animal... Personally i think most owners have their head up their butts, cross breeding is beneficial for the health and temperment of any pure bred dogs. My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older... Lets face it temperment and health improve when working dogs are crossed and fyi king shepherds are quite energetic, my pups mother was very enthusiastic when we met her, and ill admit that i was aprehensive about getting such a large breed, but they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working gaia is great with my son and the cats


byb!


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Foxes are not the same species as in the case of wolves. They are in the same family (canidae) but are otherwise not closely related. The domestic dog is considered a subspecies of _canis lupus_, or, the gray wolf.

And goodness me, I've had plenty a chance to interact with socialized wolves and I see dogs that are *far* more highly driven and energetic than they. That's because we, as humans, have bred for that trait. By comparison the WOLVES are couch potatoes. Now granted these wolves are socialized and in captivity, but have you ever seen footage of a wolf pack in the wild in their natural habitat? Now compare that to the kinds of working dogs we have that will work all day long at a Schutzhund trial (or whatever their assigned job) when given the chance. And LOVE doing that work. The dog is doing this because it is pleasurable and fulfills a drive, the wolf, doing it to survive.

In the wild there isn't necessarily a driving force to select for "the most highly driven workable dog." Traits selected for are those that lead toward survival. Insane (by comparison to the wolf, I don't mean that as a negative descriptor) working drive is not necessarily one of those.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gaiamomma said:


> One last thing... ALL dogs are just glorified couch potato versions of wolves and foxes, no matterhow hard they work they are still fed and sheltered by a human master and have it cushy compared to their wild realatives... Just saying and im not trying to offend anyone with my comments, only trying to open some eyes is all


 
TROLL statement!

Obviously must consider the source!

Also obviously the OP must have many formal and documented proofs of their expertise in dogs and breeding and all the rest!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I want to know how "_they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working" _if they *just* purchased a pup.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I want to know how "_they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working" _if they *just* purchased a pup.


 
Faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older...


You have got to be kidding right? I'm sure your King Shepherd breeder would be MORTIFIED to read this.



> One last thing... ALL dogs are just glorified couch potato versions of wolves and foxes,


I don't think you've ever lived with Masi 

Your opinion is your opinion, but your education is lacking.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Your opinion is your opinion, but your education is lacking.


I once heard someone say too...you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Definitely relevant here =/. Presuming person in question is not trolling.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

My friend had a dog called a "miniature" German Shepherd growing up. I'm not sure of the details, but the GSDs were within standard, just on the smaller end. My friend's "miniature" GSD bitch was about 50lbs fully grown. She was tiny. The breeder apparently had a small litter and went along with the result. All of their dogs were very small compared to the average, but still within the range of a typical GSD weight.

I don't necessarily condone that sort of thing, because my friend's dog had an issue with temperament. The breeder only bred once a year as a hobby. My friend's GSD was not a GSD at heart. She preferred being outside running around in the back yard, and didn't like being a house dog. 

However, as long as the dog they pick fits the standard and has a sound mentality I have no qualms with them breeding it. Mental soundness and physical health are of utmost importance and come before coat color, size, etc. As long as the breeder keeps that in mind, then I have no issues with them trying to get a specific size. However, if they just breed every small GSD they see, or every large GSD, not taking the dog's temperament into account or its health, then t hey are irresponsible. If that makes sense. 

I'm bad with words sometimes.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> My friend had a dog called a "miniature" German Shepherd growing up. I'm not sure of the details, but the GSDs were within standard, just on the smaller end. My friend's "miniature" GSD bitch was about 50lbs fully grown. She was tiny. The breeder apparently had a small litter and went along with the result. All of their dogs were very small compared to the average, but still within the range of a typical GSD weight.
> 
> I don't necessarily condone that sort of thing, because my friend's dog had an issue with temperament. The breeder only bred once a year as a hobby. My friend's GSD was not a GSD at heart. She preferred being outside running around in the back yard, and didn't like being a house dog.
> 
> ...


That isn't a miniture GSD. If they are within the standard and on the smaller end then thats what they are, a GSD on the smaller end. GSDs are not supposed to be a large breed, they are a medium sized breed. 

My girl is 56lbs, she is not "miniture" she is well within the good weight of a GSD. Perfectly normal within her breed. I would say a 30lb 3 year old GSD is miniture, not 50lbs.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> That isn't a miniture GSD. If they are within the standard and on the smaller end then thats what they are, a GSD on the smaller end. GSDs are not supposed to be a large breed, they are a medium sized breed.
> 
> My girl is 56lbs, she is not "miniture" she is well within the good weight of a GSD. Perfectly normal within her breed. I would say a 30lb 3 year old GSD is miniture, not 50lbs.


Read my post again, that's exactly what I said...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

gaiamomma said:


> One last thing... ALL dogs are just glorified couch potato versions of wolves and foxes


Ummm foxes are a totally separate species from dogs/wolves. They're in different clades. They split apart 4+ million years ago. They can't even interbreed successfully. Foxes are vulpes (for example the red fox is _vulpes vulpes_) and dogs/wolves are canis (for example _canis lupus_, the gray wolf.)


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

gaiamomma said:


> Id like to point out that ALL domestic canines are nothing but 'custom-bred mutts'... And quite frankly most 'pure bred' dogs have crazy health issues... If dogs that are cross bred arent to your liking take a look at you precious pure animal and think of how many generations of wild dogs ang cross breeding to get that beautiful animal... Personally i think most owners have their head up their butts, cross breeding is beneficial for the health and temperment of any pure bred dogs. My boyfriend and i have just purchased a king shepherd and are quite fond of our little bundle, and are planning on breeding her to a rotti when she is older... Lets face it temperment and health improve when working dogs are crossed and fyi king shepherds are quite energetic, my pups mother was VERY enthusiastic when we met her, and ill admit that i was aprehensive about getting such a large breed, but they have proven themselves to me to be hearty, loving and hard working gaia is great with my son and the cats


Perfect! I was going to type this exact thing, but I was too lazy. 
Every dog in the world is a result of cross breeding. All of the sudden it's unethical? As long as it's done with health and temperment in mind. My purebred gsd has so many health problems, EPI, urinary incontinence, food alergies, blah, blah blah. My mutt from the spca costs me dog food and shots. My vet says it has a name, but I can't remember it, breeding health problems out. 
It all just sounds snobby to me.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lenny said:


> Perfect! I was going to type this exact thing, but I was too lazy.
> Every dog in the world is a result of cross breeding. All of the sudden it's unethical? As long as it's done with health and temperment in mind. My purebred gsd has so many health problems, EPI, urinary incontinence, food alergies, blah, blah blah. My mutt from the spca costs me dog food and shots.
> It all just sounds snobby to me.


Yes, but now they are no longer mutts. People are breeding King Shepherds for a "bigger calmer" version of a GSD. They basically making a "designer dog" with no real goal in mind. My purebreds and mixes cost about the same. Hmmm. Mixes are not let prone to health issues than purebreds.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lenny said:


> Perfect! I was going to type this exact thing, but I was too lazy.
> Every dog in the world is a result of cross breeding. All of the sudden it's unethical? As long as it's done with health and temperment in mind. My purebred gsd has so many health problems, EPI, urinary incontinence, food alergies, blah, blah blah. My mutt from the spca costs me dog food and shots. My vet says it has a name, but I can't remember it, breeding health problems out.
> It all just sounds snobby to me.


Fortunately in America everyone is welcome to their opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be!

Breeding "mutts" to "mutts" will insure that you will be surprised by the puppies size, coloration and temperament!

When you buy a puppy wouldn't you like to have an idea of what your pup will be like? Guess not, huh?


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