# ceaser and victoria stillwell O.o



## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

sooo! this has probally been posted before! but what do you think of these two trainers?? cesar millan and victoria stilwell? some people agree with them and others dont, what are your poinions, and why? what dont you like and what do you like?

thanks


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

My dad loves Victoria Stillwell, but I think it has to do with the black leather.


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## Korubell (Apr 6, 2010)

Victoria I like lotsly. Caesar not so much, mostly because he condones the use of a high-riding double collar designed by his wife. The method is aversive rather than gentling. The collar sits high on the neck and can cut across the delicate area behind/under the dog's ears. I'm not fond of aversive methods.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I prefer Victoria Stillwell over Ceasar Millan. 

Victoria comes from England and used to be anti crate, etc. Since she has been in America, I have seen her suggest a crate. But that is such a tiny part of the whole thing. I think Victoria tries to find techniques that will work with the totally insane people she is working with, and those techniques continue to be positive. 

Ceasar Millan was an illegal alien, and started out as groomer. Where he comes from, dogs were dogs and people were people. True. Dogs lived outside and new their place. He also deals with the dregs of society and their totally wacked out dogs. I disagree with some of what he does. I have seen him deal with some seriously aggressive dogs, and some of them he just has to keep because they may be ok with him, but they are unable to be put back with the family. His motto is basically, exercise the poop out of them, project your confidence and energy, and rule the universe often putting dogs together and then making them lie on their side with the dogs they are afraid of. 

I find this unreasonable. 

I read both of their books, and in both are gems and in both are huey. I think Victoria buys into the speuter crap too much. If you are writing a book about training, stick to training and leave the political speuter crap out of it. Ceasar's book is inspirational in that it is a rags to riches story, but much of what he says, treat dogs like dogs, and exercise them, is just common sense. 

I actually like Patricia McConnel better than either of these, but she does not have a TV show.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

What do you mean by speuter?


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

paulag1955 said:


> What do you mean by speuter?


 
She means Spay / Neuter. (short form = speuter.)


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I like them both but I'm one of the few that likes ceaser. Haven't watched victoria in a long time. I'm far from perfact but I try his ways a lot and so far all my dogs live peacfully as a pack. As soon as they start to bow up to eachother or growl over a treat/toy they get the EEEEEEhhhh soud and I take the toy away. Its worked for 5+ yrs. So far.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> What do you mean by speuter?


 
thats what i was thinkin, haha i like victoria more, than ceaser personally, but i would have to go with leslie mcdevitt,, her book is what changed my dogs  but i love watching victoria!! i watch her show every day lol


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

ChristenHolden said:


> I like them both but I'm one of the few that likes ceaser. Haven't watched victoria in a long time. I'm far from perfact but I try his ways a lot and so far all my dogs live peacfully as a pack. As soon as they start to bow up to eachother or growl over a treat/toy they get the EEEEEEhhhh soud and I take the toy away. Its worked for 5+ yrs. So far.


i tryed the ceasar stuff and none worked for me! i dont think the belly role thing or submission works, i dont like the whole submission thing one bit, thats where i like victoria, shes all positive, and ceaser is a little ruff, the side pokeing thing never worked for me either, my dogs know whos boss but they dont submissivly roll over if i look at them cross eyed lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do think that if you do not agree with something, alpha rolls, domination, shock collars, prong collars, choke chains, crates, etc. etc etc, I think that making that thing work for you is an uphill battle.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

i dont nesisarily disagree with it... but i dont see how it works, the thing i dont like would be my dog rolling into submission as i pass by, thats all. i use prong collars haha and deff, crates. my dogs know im domanate i just dont want them submisive, ya know?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I'll have to agree with selzer. There are positives to be learned both from Cesar and from Victoria, probably more so from their more recent episodes - Cesar has calmed down on the forced submission some and Victoria has become more open to concepts such as crating - than from their earlier episodes. 

If I had to pick one over the other, however, that would be a hard choice to make, because I don't agree with either one 100%. I feel that they are both, in their own way, very one-sided. Victoria is all about positive-all-the-time and Cesar is very force-all-the-time in their training approach. I don't think either approach is well-balanced.

IMHO dogs need a positive-only phase when they are learning a new command, but once a command is learned, and proofed, there comes a phase of correction when the dog chooses not to follow the command. I don't think you can be all-positive or all-correction and get a balanced dog out of it. There needs to be positive AND corrections in the different phases of training. That's what I think, anyway, and how I train.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I hate Ceaser's idea of how basically every behavioral issue is related to dominance. It's so annoying. And it seems like his training methods, if done wrong, could screw up your dog. 

I LOVE Victoria, though. I love the fact that she uses positive reinforcement, and that woman has worked some miracles! Plus, her training methods - if you do it wrong, it'll just take a little longer. (For the most part).


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> I'll have to agree with selzer. There are positives to be learned both from Cesar and from Victoria, probably more so from their more recent episodes - Cesar has calmed down on the forced submission some and Victoria has become more open to concepts such as crating - than from their earlier episodes.
> 
> If I had to pick one over the other, however, that would be a hard choice to make, because I don't agree with either one 100%. I feel that they are both, in their own way, very one-sided. Victoria is all about positive-all-the-time and Cesar is very force-all-the-time in their training approach. I don't think either approach is well-balanced.
> 
> IMHO dogs need a positive-only phase when they are learning a new command, but once a command is learned, and proofed, there comes a phase of correction when the dog chooses not to follow the command. I don't think you can be all-positive or all-correction and get a balanced dog out of it. There needs to be positive AND corrections in the different phases of training. That's what I think, anyway, and how I train.



I also agree with Selzer, and with the additional comments above. Milan *may* work in some cases with dogs that have serious issues, but he's not for the average dog owner. But he makes great TV.

Haven't seen Victoria, but I did read one of her books. I found it to be very basic and probably best for extreme newbie dog owners.

Like was said, both training methods contain bits of useful information. My feeling is that the owner must read books every different type of training method by various authors, then pick and choose which techniques work for the unique combination of you and your dog. There are so many variables in each relationship that a single training style probably won't exactly fit any given dog-owner partnership.

That said, if I had to cast a vote in favor of Milan vs. Stillwell, I'd go with Stillwell.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I watch both of their shows but when it comes to training I like Victoria better.

I dont like that Cesar gets physical with his dogs, I dont like that he forces them to do things.


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

I have always been a dog lover but it wasn't until I started watching Ceasar that I became interested in the behavior of dogs and why they do the things they do. I am not saying I agree with everything he says or does but when I first started watching him is when I began to really take an interest in researching dogs and dog behavior. He also got me to realize that I need to get my dogs out for routine walks and not just rely on the back yard (I was young). So that is what I learned most from him. 

If I am looking to train or curb a certain behavior then I usually take my lessons from an episode of Victoria's show. One example is that I was having problems with Willow and countersurfing. I had never had a dog do that before so I was stumped on how to get her to stop. I tried many things: cans with coins, double side sticky tape along the counter and a spray bottle with water. None of them worked and then I saw Victoria use a bike horn at the moment the dog was jumping on the counter. I rushed to Walmart for a horn and the problem was solved within a week or two. 

So I guess I have learned from both of them.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I see Victoria as more of a trainer and behavoirist who knows most of the time it's the HUMAN that is causing the problem/confusion/situation....... so looks at the dynamic to train the human and then (shocking  ) teach the dog how their new life is going to work.

What I admire about Cesar is he actually takes on dogs that are HUGE real problems that have been HUGE REAL PROBLEMS for years that mostly would be a nightmare for any trainer to even think about taking on. The fact that many of these dogs are so bad and their owners are such contributors to the situation that he removes the dogs COMPLETEY to take them to his house so he can rehabilitate them is very telling. So he somewhat fixes the dog to calm it to what a real life could/should be, before ever even dealing with the owner to show what the dog really always could have been with the right leadership and guidance....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Because both of these "trainers" are on television with the magic of editing it is really hard to know if their techniques work and long term. Foundation training is key to behavior modification and short term fixes are just that. 
I prefer Victoria over Cesar, she was interviewed in the Whole Dog Journal and I like her perspective.
Like posted above the Cesar and his dominance theory gets old fast. 

MRL is right~the owners are the problem, not the dog ~in both shows.

If I watch a show about dogs, I'll be happiest to tune in to Dogtown...too bad it is no longer making new episodes.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

i like victoria way better, i have even used some of her ideas and they work great...

I don't like caeser...He intimidates the dogs, especially the lil ones. He eyes them, head on and thats intimidating...He does psss crap, that is scary...when a dog stands there and shakes when in training, i am sorry something is wrong...


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## KMSlemons (Jun 30, 2010)

Unlike most everyone here, I haven't even seen Victoria, so I can't comment. I do watch Cesar Milan at least once a week, though I try to catch more episodes. I like most of what he does and put many of his suggestions into practice here. I know I've just been sent to the proverbial dog house for admitting that I like him, but..... it's the truth!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm not a huge fan of either but I think CM's influence on the general public is far worse. VS is ok but way too preachy for my liking. As for the crates, I went to a John Rogerson seminar years ago and he said that crating isn't something most pet owners in England are willing to do, so it generally isn't an option to suggest it for training purposes. That is IMO just a cultural difference.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

I watch both shows. Victoria is more entertaining because of some of the outlandish owners (like the newly weds with three great danes). I find that her methods sometimes skirt the problems to avoid corrective actions. A dog violently guards a bone, so she tells the family to never give the dog a bone again. I suspect the dog will find other toys and items to guard in the same way. 
I believe that the best training is what works best for the dog owner. I take more from Cesar, not in that you must dominate the dog, but you must be the "leader". That's a big difference. I'm amazed at how many dog owners "whine" commands at their dogs and expect them to respect them. I don't think that a calm submissive dog means that the animal cowers every time the owner enters the room, but the dog is watching for clues on what the owner wants whether it is play or work. 
Cesar treats dogs more like dogs. 
What they both do that is important is point out that stupid human behavior leads to unruly out of control dogs. I wish that they would do a show or series of shows where they work with a family from the selection process up to a year to give people a sense of how to do it right rather than correcting over the top dogs after years of no training or leadership.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

I like them both -- but I think they aim to re-train totally different types of dogs. They both recognize it's the owners fault and that the owner needs to be retrained. I think people could learn from watching both shows and reading both persons books.

I don't think either of them is 100% right, 100% of the time. As you know dogs learn in different ways. And there are different stages of the dogs learning that you need to use different techniques to train. I agree that there is a positive reinforcement stage, and a stage where they choose to not listen and need to have a correction.
They both get results, but I must agree (with whoever said it) -- it's TV and there's editing, so there's no telling what kind of long-term results they're actually getting.


There is some entertainment in both shows though.

Has anyone seen the cat trainer show with the lady from Australia??


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

I've never seen Victoria's show so I can't say whether I like her. I do like Cesar though, if you watch his show he always says it's about rehabilitating dogs and training people. It is not all about dominance or intimidation and his corrections make it very clear to the dog that a behavior is not acceptable. There is nothing wrong with discipline, the lack of which is one reason why so many people have unruly dogs. I've also seen where he has asked a person if he can take their dog permanently because it was such a bad case and she refused but she made some changes in her life that allowed her to be a better leader and the dog behaved better as a result. I know that we don't see the half of it because it's on tv, but I do think he does rehab some dogs that would normally be put down.


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

HAHA Whoever mentioned the newlyweds with three great danes show -- it's on right now. Very interesting and ridiculous....definitely the owner's fault, and by owner I mean the wife.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I like both of them and find good advice in both of their approaches. Victoria Stilwell's style is almost exactly like my trainer. I believe that Cesar's leadership credo works for him, but I think that the alpha thing is something that wouldn't work for everyone, simply because not everyone has it. I think it is more of a natural talent than something that can be learned, at least in part.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't agree with EVERYTHING they say, but I have picked up some good training tips from both. I do prefer Victoria's training style over Ceaser.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

i use all of victorias training tips i love her, i also think CM intimadates and i dissagree with that.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I've never watched Victoria Stillwell, but I've seen many Dog Whisperer episodes and I've seen him alpha roll, I don't know, once? 

Caesar Milan is unique in that he has so much confidence and such a commanding presence that dogs automatically know that and don't mess with him. Not very many people have that much confidence, and not very many people can keep up that confidence. There was an episode where these people got an imported german shepherd from germany as a guard dog that seemed really aggressive to everyone, and Caesar just waltzed right into the dog's kennel. He did the same with two large aggressive great danes with a bite history. That's kind of nuts.

I like his methods. He doesn't take crap from any dog. I think what he's trying to teach is not that you have to dominate the dog all the time, but you should never, ever be dominated by the dog. If a dog starts learning, "Hey, I can get away with being bad and nothing happens to me!" you create a problem dog.

Btw, has anyone here seen the show At The End of My Leash with Brad Pattison? Boy is that guy ever pissed off.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i like both equally because i've been able to take some of their methods and apply them to my life with my dogs. Yes, they both have some methods that caused my dogs to look at me like i'd lost it but as said previously by a few people, the best way to train is to take certain things from certain trainers and adjust them to yourself and your dogs. I love the confidence CM continually has and the dogs see this. I agree with VS positive is best but sometimes you have to positive and a little hard at the same time. I like how they both approach the situation as its not the dogs fault but the owners because lets face it.... its not the dogs fault people are challenged and/or ignorant. I've applied methods from both trainers to my dogs and people are constantly amazed at how well behaved they are. Have i had to do the dreaded alpha roll before? yes. Would i do it again if necessary. yes. I know many dont agree with it but its a method that works with some dogs when all other fail. With my pain in the butt dogs, i've been able to apply more from CM than VS but they're equally good because they have different methods that work for them and they've been using those methods long enough they know how to teach others how to apply them as well.


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## CalmLeader (Sep 2, 2010)

*Cesar Millan's understanding of dogs is way beyond Victoria Stillwell's grasp*

Cesar Millan without a doubt. There is a great article I recommend to understand Millan better: "What the Dog Saw" by Gladwell gladwell dot com - What the Dog Saw

Cesar Millan grew up with dog packs around him and developed a pretty unique insight into the psychological dynamic in dog packs, their social structure and how dogs relate to one another and maintain order and balance in a pack. He uses these great insights to train people on how to have a better relationship with their dogs by understanding them and addressing their needs from a dog’s point of view.

In the western world people often have a tendency to view their dogs as another kid in the family. In my work (I am a dog trainer and rehabilitator myself) I find that to be one of the biggest problems. People spoil their dogs based on their selfish needs to shower them with love. And while most people have the best, most loving (from their point of view) intentions, they do not really love their dog in the true meaning of the word. Loving your dog means to accept his nature, seek to understand and provide him with what he needs and not what we think he should enjoy - this is what Cesar Millan advocates. 

He shows people how putting themselves in a state of calm-assertiveness their dogs will naturally follow them and behave better because is it’s programmed in their DNA to seek out balance and stability and follow that naturally. Most people are not calm and relaxed (or assertive) when they are with their dogs because of whatever is going on in their lives. Most people didn’t understand how this affected their dogs and what behavioral consequences it had. Cesar Millan has changed that and brought awareness to these connections to the general public. If you see a poorly behaved dog (pulling on the walk, jumping on people, excessive barking, aggression, etc.) there is always a person that is responsible for that dog’s condition (state of mind) as by nature dogs are balanced. It is not the dog. It is the owner who is responsible. Cesar Millan shows people that if they provide their dog with sufficient exercise, structure and affection (in that order) their dogs will naturally accept them as their leaders and return to a state of balance where most issues resolve themselves. 

Cesar also does rehabilitation work that goes beyond what any normal dog owner can fix i.e. for severe aggression (dogs who want to kill), extreme anxiety, etc. He uses his own balanced dog pack in the Los Angeles Dog Psychology Center to bring these dogs back into their natural, balanced state with help of their doggy peers - 'the power of the pack' as he calls it. He has rehabilitated many dogs other 'trainers' recommended to have euthanized as he understands dogs better than many. He does sometimes get criticized for his methodology and approach of 'working with nature' but that is usually by people who don’t quite grasp nature’s basic concepts when it comes to dogs. 

I watch both shows out of professional interest and I do use positive reinforcement where possible and so does Cesar Millan. I would at some point like to see a compelling argument for Victoria Stillwell's approach of 'positive ONLY' training. In one of Victoria's 2009 episodes I saw her advocating (together with a vet) that a particular dog with separation anxiety should be put on anti-anxiety medication. Now that is TRUE animal cruelty in my view and a complete humanization of an animal that is really not to its benefit at all. Anyone who thinks that it is a 'positive' approach to drugging a dog your methods don’t work on should really take a look at the Cesar Millan DVD 'Common Canine Misbehaviors', where he shows how to address separation anxiety with CALM-ASSERTIVE leadership. He teaches the owners how to bring their dog back to balance and resolve this issue and he doesn’t touch the dog even once. Same issue, different methods, which is healthier for the dog? 

Also, in the episode 'Untamed and Untrained' from 2008, Victoria Stillwell diagnosed 2 dogs (Olivia and Sophia) as never be able to be together in one room alone off leash as one was attacking the other. She also spoke of the dogs being 'emotional' in each other's presence. I have to say that she is not a very impressive trainer. These dogs can absolutely be returned to a balanced co-existence and dogs are not emotional about other dogs in ways like "they don't like each other". Victoria did make good progress with Olivia and Sophia but didn't seem to fully understand that this was just the beginning of where this can be taken. If she would have only been able to teach the owners how to be true calm-assertive pack leaders and reclaim the position, they lost to their dogs they could have made it all the way. Victoria doesn't really seem to understand the true nature of dogs and once again humanizes them (although she says she doesn't). Instead of criticizing Cesar Millan on a regular basis, she would benefit from getting some lessons from him on how to deal with imbalances in dogs like that properly, and working with Mother Nature's blue print. She showed some good positive reinforcement techniques (which Cesar Millan uses too where appropriate by the way) but would really do herself and her clients a huge favor by not denouncing things she clearly doesn't understand properly. If I knew who these poor people where I might go there myself just to help them, as I feel really sorry for them having to think, their dogs can never get along; Stillwell should be ashamed of herself.

Based on what I have seen from both of them I would never let Stillwell anywhere near my dog. Cesar Millan on the other hand would be very welcome to visit my German Shepherd anytime


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think it's hard to compare these two trainers in that they deal with very different kinds of issues on their shows. Since the media made Stillwell the "positive" trainer and Cesar the "dominant" trainer they seem to have dogs on each show that will purposely fit this image. There are times when positive reinforcement is necessary like when first teaching a command or when the command is followed subsequently. You want your dog to know they have done something right and reward the behavior as well as you want to be positive when first teaching the behavior. However, once a command is understood or when aggression arises there has to be some negative consequence to differentiate right from wrong. This isn't to humanize dogs, but they are intelligent enough to know when they display X behavior Y happens and Y is not pleasant. While I'm not a fan of the alpha roll I couldn't and wouldn't live without my prong collar and while I've never needed a shock collar the idea isn't disturbing to me. Dogs know the difference between their owner using a praising voice and shoving hot dogs in their mouth, and their owner using a firm low voice and popping their prong collar. They need both positive and negative stimuli to learn right from wrong.

So to answer the question I don't love Stillwell personally nor do I watch her show. Cesar tends to be to made for tv for my likes either though between the two I'd love to spend a day with him off camera


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

CalmLeader said:


> If you see a poorly behaved dog (pulling on the walk, jumping on people, excessive barking, aggression, etc.) there is always a person that is responsible for that dog’s condition (state of mind) as by nature dogs are balanced. It is not the dog. It is the owner who is responsible.


That is not entirely true. There are many many dogs out there with poor nerves due to genetics not lack of training. This also plays a part in some dogs needing medication.



> Cesar Millan shows people that if they provide their dog with sufficient exercise, structure and affection (in that order) their dogs will naturally accept them as their leaders and return to a state of balance where most issues resolve themselves.


I think this is common sense(order does not matter). Tired dogs are good dogs..how old is that saying? Too often people have gotten a dog based on looks and do not know what the dog needs (exercise both mental and physical)

I think of my dog as my furkid, I don't humanize him. Some people have a problem with that but not all. I think people who train their dogs and are responsible pet owners don't have an issue of humanizing dogs.

I think its completely possible to train some dogs with only positive methods. If the dog does not need any physical corrections why use them? whats wrong with trying positive first? I think saying she should be ashamed of herself is ridiculous. She's helped a lot of people and whether you agree with her methods or not she's done more good than harm, same for Ceasar.


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## Gusto's Mommy (Aug 28, 2010)

ChristenHolden said:


> I like them both but I'm one of the few that likes ceaser. Haven't watched victoria in a long time. I'm far from perfact but I try his ways a lot and so far all my dogs live peacfully as a pack. As soon as they start to bow up to eachother or growl over a treat/toy they get the EEEEEEhhhh soud and I take the toy away. Its worked for 5+ yrs. So far.


Hah Hah! I use EEEEhhhhhh too...it works better than saying No, no, no, no no all the time... which looses its effectiveness on GSD's.... They are like "Excuse me? Mind your own business!"


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Syaoransbear said:


> Caesar Milan is unique in that he has so much confidence and such a commanding presence that dogs automatically know that and don't mess with him.


Someone forgot to tell this dog that Cesar has a commanding presence and isn't to be messed with...





 (and this dog didn't "submit" he simply exhausted himself)





Syaoransbear said:


> I like his methods. He doesn't take crap from any dog. I think what he's trying to teach is not that you have to dominate the dog all the time, but you should never, ever be dominated by the dog.


 Do you believe most dog behavior problems are caused by "dominance"?



Syaoransbear said:


> BTW, has anyone here seen the show At The End of My Leash with Brad Pattison? Boy is that guy ever pissed off.


 :help:


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

im domenant over my dogs with out doing what he does, that can affect a dog, and my dog is shy, if idid that she would freak. ceasars way didnot work onmy dog but leslie mcdevitt did for sure and so does some of victorias, i use crates though, and pinch collars ets, which she doesnt but oh well hah


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't watch either, I don't even have Animal Planet.lol. But I would choose Victoria over Ceasar anyday. My cousin's use Ceasar 's methods needless to say, they hardly worked


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> Someone forgot to tell this dog that Cesar has a commanding presence and isn't to be messed with...


I haven't seen every episode, but the ones I've seen where he immediately confronts an aggressive dog it submits to him, and dogs that aren't aggressive usually respect his space when he comes in the door.



AgileGSD said:


> Do you believe most dog behavior problems are caused by "dominance"?


Not exactly. I think the more common dog behavioral problems are created by owners who spoil their dogs so that the dog thinks it's allowed to act however it wants to. These would be owners would don't like it when their dogs jump up on them or eats things off the counter, but let them do it anyway and just deal with it because their dog is their 'baby'.



AgileGSD said:


> :help:


I don't understand what you mean by ":help:". Does that mean you've seen the show, or not? I actually just finished watching that show an hour ago and Brad Pattison said "I'm really pissed off right now" 3 times in one episode, lol.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> I haven't seen every episode, but the ones I've seen where he immediately confronts an aggressive dog it submits to him, and dogs that aren't aggressive usually respect his space when he comes in the door.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
haha thats to funny what channel is that show on?


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

shilorio said:


> haha thats to funny what channel is that show on?


It's on the SLICE network. I think it's canadian.

One time he was trying to demonstrate to the owners what it's like to give up a dog, so he threw their son on their trampoline and said he was worthless and they should get rid of him lol. I think he makes people cry in every episode.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While sitting in the vet's office performing positive training and socialization with Joy, I watched Ceasar Millan deal with this violent Yorkie that tried to eat him a number of times. The Yorkie owner's problem was grooming. And it did not seem like Ceasar got very far either.

But then, how do you alpha roll a four pound dog. Can you imagine what the dog is thinking -- ooh Big Man, just wait until you let me up, I may get your hand, and I will certainly get your ankle when you walk away.

But whatever, I am not sure what Ceasar ended up doing with the Yorkie from the fiery pit. This poor dog in the vid up there is scared to death. I just do not think alpha rolls on a scared dog help. And when a dog tucks its tail, I do not understand the idea that untucking the dogs tail will inject confidence in the dog. Of course I have been guilty of doing something similar: "oh put your hair down, its a lousy garbage can for crying out loud." But I do not physically put the hair down.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> It's on the SLICE network. I think it's canadian.
> 
> One time he was trying to demonstrate to the owners what it's like to give up a dog, so he threw their son on their trampoline and said he was worthless and they should get rid of him lol. I think he makes people cry in every episode.


 
hah thats to funny, does anyone ever watch southpark?? my favorite episode is when they make fun of ceasar, its hillarious!!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Syaoransbear said:


> I haven't seen every episode, but the ones I've seen where he immediately confronts an aggressive dog it submits to him, and dogs that aren't aggressive usually respect his space when he comes in the door.


 I have rarely seen his show and have seen handfuls of clips of him and can say there have been multiple episodes where dogs have tried to eat him, had to be muzzled for him to work with or had to be strangled because they went after him. He does not a magical dog god who dogs automatically become friendly and polite around.




Syaoransbear said:


> Not exactly. I think the more common dog behavioral problems are created by owners who spoil their dogs so that the dog thinks it's allowed to act however it wants to. These would be owners would don't like it when their dogs jump up on them or eats things off the counter, but let them do it anyway and just deal with it because their dog is their 'baby'.


 Jumping on people and stealing food are pretty normal dog behaviors - most dogs will do these things if not trained otherwise. The theory that behavior problems stem from "dominance" is pretty outdated at this point.





Syaoransbear said:


> I don't understand what you mean by ":help:". Does that mean you've seen the show, or not? I actually just finished watching that show an hour ago and Brad Pattison said "I'm really pissed off right now" 3 times in one episode, lol.


 That guy is an . Talk about presenting really bad training and behavior information to the general public.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

AgileGSD

I agree Brad Patterson is an ***.

I used to go to his message board and someone posted videos about one of his training events. They looked very interesing and I could see how the dogs and the owners benefited. But, in one, a woman was challenging him (just by asking his background) while he had one of her goldens on a leash. He became very insulted and defensive and took it out on her dog. He tried to get the dog to sit and he wouldn't so he pulled up on the leash until his front paws were off the ground. Then while returning the dog to her he smacked the dog hard on his nose. I couldn't see what the dog did to cause this reaction. Everyone on the message board defended his actions, except two, and his supporters were very viscious. This is when I left the board.

I don't watch Victoria (can't get the station) and I do watch Ceasar. Some of his stuff makes sense, others I discount. It is amazing how many times I hear people say "I need Ceasar" when the dog is misbehaving.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I use EEEEhhhhhh too...it works better than saying No, no, no, no no all the time... which looses its effectiveness on GSD's.... They are like "Excuse me? Mind your own business!"


I have to disagree with you.

It does not matter what word you use - whether you use an actual word, such as "NO" or "STOP" or whether you use a sound, such as ACK! or EHHH! - as long as they are used for the right situation (stop this right now) and used consistently. Of course, if the dog chooses not to listen, there has to be a consequence, not a nagging repetition of the word. 

Telling your kids "No, honey, don't do that" and then having them do it again just to say "No, stop that right now!" and then again, "If you don't stop that RIGHT NOW I will ..." etc. etc. is the same as nagging a dog with No no no no over and over again. Either the word stops the behavior, or a consequence needs to follow immediately after the behavior happens again. Otherwise, it makes no difference what word you use, it won't work.

CalmLeader, whose one and only post to this forum so far has been on this thread, sounds like an advertisement of Cesar Millan ... or maybe it's just me. Certainly seems that way. And I can't say I agree with a lot of what he (she?) says -



> Cesar Millan grew up with dog packs around him and developed a pretty unique insight into the psychological dynamic in dog packs, their social structure and how dogs relate to one another and maintain order and balance in a pack. He uses these great insights to train people on how to have a better relationship with their dogs by understanding them and addressing their needs from a dog’s point of view.


Cesar Millan has by no means a "unique" insight in how dog packs work. Others have studied the behavior of dogs in packs for years. Turid Rugaas comes to mind, who has published pretty extensively on dog-dog communication and how to read it and understand dogs better. Her DVD on Calming Signals is very nice.

I think people like Turid have as good, if not better, an understanding of how pack dynamic works than Cesar Millan - she just doesn't have a national TV show in the US. And at any rate, she's not controversial like Cesar, either. I have yet to see her recommend a dog be flooded for "treatment", or choked, or rolled.

Cesar's dominance theory and his constant comparison between dogs and wolves are outdated. Stick around this forum for a while and read some of the research on the dominance theory that's out there. Maybe you'll learn something that goes beyond "if the dog doesn't do what I want it to do, the dog is trying to be dominant and take charge and doesn't respect me as a leader."



> He does sometimes get criticized for his methodology and approach of 'working with nature' but that is usually by people who don’t quite grasp nature’s basic concepts when it comes to dogs.


In nature, the "dominant" dog does not physically grab and force another dog onto its side to make it submit. Submission by rolling over is an OFFERED behavior, not a forced one. And, in nature, another dog does not choke a dog by a slip collar to make it behave. Well, not that I've seen, anyway.



> I'm far from perfact but I try his ways a lot and so far all my dogs live peacfully as a pack. As soon as they start to bow up to eachother or growl over a treat/toy they get the EEEEEEhhhh soud and I take the toy away. Its worked for 5+ yrs. So far.


I am confused as to the situation you're describing here, as this sounds like perfectly normal dog-dog play behavior to me. Bowing up to one another is inviting play, and playing with a shared toy or even without one will have dogs wrestling, growling, biting at each other. Why is this something you purposely stop?

Of course, it's possible you're talking about a situation where it goes from good play to serious fighting, in which case having several dogs with one toy probably isn't the best place to start to begin with. But if this is actually normal play, why does it need to get the "Ehhh!" and the toy being taken away?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Excellent post Chris! :thumbup:


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Sorry, but I don't see forcing a dog on the ground, choking it out, and holding it down until it's too exhausted to fight as a good way to train... Not to mention he can't even control his own pack. Ever seen their fights, since he as many pit bull dogs running loose in his pack? Turned into a free for all when a scrap broke out, no amount of "SHH!" ing worked.

Stillwell all the way, she understand dog behavior and actually takes the time to modify behavior and teach the owners.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> Sorry, but I don't see forcing a dog on the ground, choking it out, and holding it down until it's too exhausted to fight as a good way to train... Not to mention he can't even control his own pack. Ever seen their fights, since he as many pit bull dogs running loose in his pack? Turned into a free for all when a scrap broke out, no amount of "SHH!" ing worked.
> 
> Stillwell all the way, she understand dog behavior and actually takes the time to modify behavior and teach the owners.


 
:thumbup: i agree totally!!


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I do that when 1 dog trys to take the toys or treats away from another dog. Because they all have trhe same thing and trys to gaurd them and gets defisive. Its not play I'm stoping a fight before it happens. I take the toy or treat way for a while and let them for get about it then give them back. They learn to share or no one gets it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> Sorry, but I don't see forcing a dog on the ground, choking it out, and holding it down until it's too exhausted to fight as a good way to train... Not to mention he can't even control his own pack. Ever seen their fights, since he as many pit bull dogs running loose in his pack? Turned into a free for all when a scrap broke out, no amount of "SHH!" ing worked.
> 
> Stillwell all the way, she understand dog behavior and actually takes the time to modify behavior and teach the owners.


Stillwell is ridiculous. For example, do you ever use a crate for a dog? One of her classic shows was about putting an owner in the crate to demonstrate just how "Evil" a crate was! I think that show summed it up for me about her.

Did you ever see her handle a really people aggresive dog? A real "red zone" type case? yea, me either.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Stillwell is ridiculous. For example, do you ever use a crate for a dog? One of her classic shows was about putting an owner in the crate to demonstrate just how "Evil" a crate was! I think that show summed it up for me about her.
> 
> Did you ever see her handle a really people aggresive dog? A real "red zone" type case? yea, me either.


That peeves me about her, but I'd rather her than Cesar.

Actually, there was one dog - forget it's name - that went after her from across the room because he had a bone, and tried biting her several times, ripped her shirt I think trying to bite he and he'd hurt the family's kids before. 

My boy is 'red zone', and I can tell you 100% he would come out much worse if Cesar got his hands on him. He'd be so f'd in the head after it he might not come back. 

How about Cesar choking a dog out because she was reactive to other dogs... ?


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

i have watched pretty much all of Ceasers shows and i do like some of them, except mostly they don't apply to my Mia! maybe its her and not him! small eg= Ceaser apparently insists that dogs don't own the front door space yada yads. but my Mia is such a submissive doggy and the rare occassions she shows her true GSD nature is when someone is at the door! there is no way in H , i,m going to tell her to shut up! infact i secretly am feeding treats to her egging her on! she is not an inncessant barker but she WILL let us know if ANYTHING OR ANYONE is at out door. whats wrong with that? her fur is up and all nine yards! she will zip it once she knows that i am talkin to them in a friendly tone! i love it.
her nature is so timid and gentle that if in my 'alpha' role(cringing) i stop her doing her 'guard' duty then she has no job or business being a gsd! i cant take that away from her! but having said that i do agree that if i had an agreesive or even a dominant dog(like mia's everyday playdate) i wud go for a lot of his advise.
as for Victoria, personally i like her but think not v effective for some dominant dog personalities, but its just my opinion.


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

also forgot to mention that much as i find his shows entertaining, i wud NEVER EVER have my dogs be trained my him. not talkin about MIA. any other future gsd( it will only be a gsd!) even if he/she exibhits aggresive tendencies. just because. do not have anything against him personally but still!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I have to confess that before we actually got a dog, I was a big fan of Milan. I bought his DVD's and books and thought he knew everything.

Then I went to a puppy class put on by our local kennel club, just to get a chance to see how they did their training. I scoffed at the "treat based" training that seemed to me to be nothing more than bribery. I wanted a dog who obeyed my commands because he wanted to please ME, not because I bribed him.

Well, I was being very closed minded, and it did not take me long to realize that my ideas of how best to train my dog were perhaps NOT the best. After speaking with several trainers (one of whom trains service dogs) I came to understand the benefits of positive reinforcement. I also read authors like Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Sophia Lin and Leslie McDevitt.

This was all before I ever got a dog, and after Rosa came home to us, those gentler methods of training were even more obviously suited for her. Rosa is a very soft dog, harsh corrections just shut her down mentally. She does not even handle a raised voice without stress managing behavior like sniffing, licking, and yawning.

I guess the point of this long post is that you can't *ever* say that one method of training is the best, especially not with all dogs. Bad behaviors can not all be corrected in the same manner. Speaking in such broad generalities is a mistake. 

I also wish that people would allow for the remote possibility of being wrong about some things. There is a lot of debate on these kind of issues, but very little swaying of opinions. Few of us seem to be able to concede a point on anything.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

And that is the point - different dogs = different personalities = different training approach!

Soft dogs do not need harsh corrections but hard dogs (like mine!) will not even notice a soft correction when he is "Up".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> That peeves me about her, but I'd rather her than Cesar..................
> My boy is 'red zone', and I can tell you 100% he would come out much worse if Cesar got his hands on him. He'd be so f'd in the head after it he might not come back. *At least Victoria wouldn't f" your dog up - because she wouldn't do anything except feed him a bunch of treats!*
> 
> How about Cesar choking a dog out because she was reactive to other dogs... ?


What about his "choking out"? Did it work? And my guess is that it wasn't the first thing he would try for the dog? How about if it was the last step before the needle? Then is it a thing to try or not?

Depends on how reactive the dog is and a host of other things to consider before deciding on a training approach - that is why they are considered pros!

As far as your "red zone" dog - if you can live with him like he is, more power to you and also a good luxk to you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of the things I like about Victoria is that if something is not working for the people/dog combo, she stops that and suggests another method. 

She comes from England where crates are not popular. Since she has been in the US, she is more open to crates, even in her show. BUT, and this is a good thing, she is NOT going to use a crate as the first thing to managing a behavior. 

Victoria does not like prong callars, shock collars, and a whole lot of other training aids. 

I think that if you removed crates and special collars from most trainer's tool box, they would be hard pressed to help people with their dogs. So I give Victoria Kudos for that.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Soft dogs do not need harsh corrections but hard dogs (like mine!) will not even notice a soft correction when he is "Up".


However, not all hard dogs need to be choked into submission in order to train them and work with them. I've never had to choke my Malinois off a bite, or roll her, or prong her, or hit her to get her to listen to me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've always listened much closer when someone whispers than when they yell...I think it is true for most dogs as well.


I can only imagine if Michael Ellis went mainstream television, the following he'd have....


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I can only imagine if Michael Ellis went mainstream television, the following he'd have....


I would tape his show. It'd be a lot cheaper than the videos.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've only seen 1 episode where Cesar "choked out" a dog. And, I really can't think of any other option in that instance. He was walking the dog toward another dog (can't think of any other way to begin training a dog to be around other dogs). The dog went from 0 to 60 in his reaction, no beginning posturing that said "hey, I'm reaching my limit to how close I can get to another dog" When Cesar stopped walking and didn't let him approach the other dog, he instantly turned on Cesar. 
He was holding the dog at arm's length, off the ground, because there was no other way to stop the dog from attacking him. Each time he gave the slightest slack in the leash, the dog went for him. It was purely frustration and anger, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to do SOMETHING to stop the dog.

Do I agree with everything? No, but I also believe that we don't see 99.9% of what he does. We only see the parts that are edited that the network thinks will draw in viewers. 
I'm sure that the same can be said for Victoria. 
I think, at the core, they have the same attitude - they walk into the room with the expectation that the dog will do as they say. A complete 180 from the owners, many of whom have zero expectations of the dog at best. At worst, they expect the WORST from their dogs and that is what they get.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> However, not all hard dogs need to be choked into submission in order to train them and work with them. I've never had to choke my Malinois off a bite, or roll her, or prong her, or hit her to get her to listen to me.


What would you do to get your dog to release a bite if she didn't want to, and was not really in the mood for a treat at the time? Do you think she would release because she wants to please you?

BTW, I haven't had to "choke my dog into submission" yet either.

Did Cesar ever suggest hitting a dog to get a dog to listen to him? Do you know what show that was because I don't remember any in which he did?


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## Hercules (Aug 1, 2010)

**** cesar... everything he calls training I call animal cruelty, I LOVE Victoria, I watch her show as much as I can and I have learned SOOO much from her, her training methods work soooo well for me and my boy.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> I guess the point of this long post is that you can't *ever* say that one method of training is the best, especially not with all dogs. Bad behaviors can not all be corrected in the same manner. Speaking in such broad generalities is a mistake.
> 
> I also wish that people would allow for the remote possibility of being wrong about some things. There is a lot of debate on these kind of issues, but very little swaying of opinions. Few of us seem to be able to concede a point on anything.


I agree.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I have watched both and both have their positive & negatives.
I personally prefer Cesar to Victoria. Cesar's methods worked for me and I couldn't have been happier with the results.
Just b/c I am not a fan of Victoria does it mean that I will bash her. Hey she has her own show with her own followers and at the end of the day if someone can watch something and learn and apply it to their situation and it works, then great. The same goes for Cesar. Victoria doesn't really work with the type of cases that Cesar works with and vice versa. 
Do I think Casar can be rough at times? Sure. But at the end he has passed on some knowledge and helped the person with their situation and it is up to them to continue and follow thru.

I think people take it more personal than they need to. Look at what problems you have and try some methods from both and see what works for you and leave it at that. At the end of the day both people have helped dog owners become more aware of their actions as to why theeir dogs are the way they are and what techniques they can try to correct it. People say Cesar is all force but he is open to try different techniques and you see it more on his later shows than his earliers one's.

You have to use what works for you and move forward. It situation may require a different technique.

I agree with someone said and Cesar points this out which I had to learn, "Not all dog lovers make the best dog owners."


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> What would you do to get your dog to release a bite if she didn't want to, and was not really in the mood for a treat at the time? Do you think she would release because she wants to please you?


First, I do not use any food rewards in bite work. Different type of work and different type of drive than obedience work where I do sometimes use food. In bite work, the sleeve usually serves as the reward, or a ball or tug.

Second, my dog "outs" the sleeve because I tell her to out the sleeve, no if's, and's or but's. If you don't have the obedience necessary to get your dog to out without choking the dog off, then you don't have the necessary obedience to do protection work with your dog, regardless of how much your dog enjoys getting that bite. I spend much more time doing obedience and working on nice, reliable stays and outs than I do on getting the bite and improving the bite.

K-9 Cop magazine had a very nice article on training a reliable out a while back, I believe it was in October 2009 but would have to look to be sure. Amazingly enough, the folks who wrote that very good article also feel that choking a dog off the bite is not a solution, but points to an obedience problem. Imagine that. They recommend working it with two long leads, to where the dog is corrected by being pulled INTO the sleeve (rather than choked off) on the out, as well as going back to basics of working obedience before addressing the out issue. You should get the magazine, it has some great articles.



> Did Cesar ever suggest hitting a dog to get a dog to listen to him?


I didn't suggest that Cesar was hitting the dogs he is working with, I was just using hitting as an example of things I don't need to do just to get my dog to "out". 

That said, Cesar is constantly making physical contacts with the dogs he works with, whether he's "tapping" them with his feet (in some cases those seem to be much more than a "tap") or poking them with his fingers, etc.

I agree that a lot of Cesar's more recent episodes are gentler than some of his early episodes - I bet that has something to do with the amount of feedback the show gets on forums such as this, and in letters/emails/etc. to the channels that run them and the company that produces them.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I think people take it more personal than they need to. Look at what problems you have and try some methods from both and see what works for you and leave it at that. At the end of the day both people have helped dog owners become more aware of their actions as to why theeir dogs are the way they are and what techniques they can try to correct it. People say Cesar is all force but he is open to try different techniques and you see it more on his later shows than his earliers one's.
> 
> You have to use what works for you and move forward. It situation may require a different technique.
> 
> I agree with someone who said and Cesar points this out which I had to learn, "Not all dog lovers make the best dog owners."


Couldn't agree more!!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I've seen both shows and I like both of them, but do I agree with everything they do? of course not. I generally don't like "alpha rolling" my dogs, but in some circumstances I've had to, like sunday night when Dodger attacked my cat I had to roll him on his side in order to keep him from going after her again once I got him off her, was there another way to get him off her? I'm sure, but in that time the first thing that popped in my head to keep him from going after her and tell him that that's not ok was to put him on his side. I don't like the tapping that Cesar does, but I've had to do it to remind my dogs to keep focused on me and not what they were focused on because a verbal saying didn't work and let me make myself clear I never ever kick or hit my dogs i just give then a light tap with my foot or hand if they really need it and nothing else is working. I agree with some of the other posters here that Victoria is a little too preachy. I've used things from both trainers and they've all worked. I like to use a mix of both because they get the positive and the discipline. But everyone and every dog is different some dogs may respond better to Cesar's style and some may respond better to Victoria's style. To me it's what ever the dog responds better to then that's what you use.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

codmaster said:


> What about his "choking out"? Did it work? And my guess is that it wasn't the first thing he would try for the dog? How about if it was the last step before the needle? Then is it a thing to try or not?
> 
> Depends on how reactive the dog is and a host of other things to consider before deciding on a training approach - that is why they are considered pros!
> 
> As far as your "red zone" dog - if you can live with him like he is, more power to you and also a good luxk to you.


You know that Victoria does not simply stand there and feed dogs treats. That is an odd thing to say, that she only feeds them..


No, he didn't. He went "SHH!" and collar popped her a few times. She still reacted to another dog on a walk (as expected) and he slammed her down and choked her until she stopped moving (after the other dog had passed), so he showed no control of her other than physical..

I do not understand why you would kill a dog simply because it is dog-aggressive, so it wasn't "Fix this dog or it dies". She was dog reactive, she was a bully breed, a breed where dog-reactivity is normal.. If you don't want it don't get the breed. 

Thank you.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> I've only seen 1 episode where Cesar "choked out" a dog. And, I really can't think of any other option in that instance. He was walking the dog toward another dog (can't think of any other way to begin training a dog to be around other dogs). The dog went from 0 to 60 in his reaction, no beginning posturing that said "hey, I'm reaching my limit to how close I can get to another dog" When Cesar stopped walking and didn't let him approach the other dog, he instantly turned on Cesar.
> He was holding the dog at arm's length, off the ground, because there was no other way to stop the dog from attacking him. Each time he gave the slightest slack in the leash, the dog went for him. It was purely frustration and anger, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to do SOMETHING to stop the dog.
> 
> Do I agree with everything? No, but I also believe that we don't see 99.9% of what he does. We only see the parts that are edited that the network thinks will draw in viewers.
> ...


This pup was a female pit mix... I think I know the dog you are talking about though.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> You know that Victoria does not simply stand there and feed dogs treats. That is an odd thing to say, that she only feeds them..
> *The use of treats does seem to be her major training approach; that and it seems like I have also seen her use a "time out" with a dog that was not obeying!*
> 
> 
> ...


 
Many people would euthanize a dog if it were totally out of control with DA. Esp. if they could not control it at all. What would you recommend with such a dog? Esp. if you don't feel that physical corrections would work to teach a dog to control itself?

BTW - have you ever seen Victoria handle a dog like this on her show? I have not and don't expect to because i don't believe her method would work with a really hard core DA dog.

Are you saying that if a bully breed is DA, that the owner should just accept it because "it is normal"?

I have seen so many pit bulls that are very friendly and easy going with other dogs that I can't agree
with that approach of just giving up on such a dog. 

You of course realize that it has been many generations since most of the bully breeds have ever been in the pit and certainly I would guess that most bully breeders are not selecting for the tendency to fight, are they? Wouldn't the tendency tend to start to disappear in this environment?

Seems like we tend to see a lot of folks on this forum who lament the dissappearance of certain traits in the GSD after only a relatively few generations. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the bully breeds; or are they perhaps immune to the inheritance genetics of other breeds?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have a dog aggressive dog, and you do not have the patience and time to take the dog out and slowly and carefully recondition it to other dogs -- it takes a lot of patience, time, and help from people with very solid dogs to bring the dog closer by degrees. And many people will give up before they reach their goal. 

However, there is no reason to euthanize. I mean, dog aggressive dogs are USUALLY agressive to dogs outside of the pack, OR you have pack aggressive problems with a dog. If you have a dog that is dog aggressive and you have a bunch of other dogs, and there are issues, you separate them, play musical crates/kennels, and give everyone training and individual attention. 

If you have a dog that wants to EAT dogs outside of the pack, you invest in a good muzzle, and take the dog out muzzled. Not all dogs need tons of exercise, but if you have a dog likely to have an issue, and you want to take him out, muzzle him. Muzzle him for the vet. The amount of time most dog aggressive dogs would spend muzzled, is far less than most dogs spend crated. 

It is a pain, but it is no reason to euthanize a dog. 

Aggression to humans is a tougher sell. 

But fear aggression is one of the worst things to manage and Victoria does deal with fear aggression to humans, without just giving the dog food and I have NEVER seen her give a "time out." If you could find a clip on that, I would be very interested to see it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Codmaster, how many episodes of It's Me or the Dog have you watched?


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Codmaster, how many episodes of It's Me or the Dog have you watched?


hehe  i love victoria, she doesnt give up and she doesnt give the dog harsh mixed signals like ceasar, with submissive reactive dogs his "PSSST" could make the dog even more reactive.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Codmaster, how many episodes of It's Me or the Dog have you watched?


Too many!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

shilorio said:


> hehe  i love victoria, she doesnt give up and she doesnt give the dog harsh mixed signals like ceasar, with submissive reactive dogs his "PSSST" could make the dog even more reactive.


Ceasar doesn't give "mixed signals" - just signals that the dog must learn to obey and be a good pack member. 

Victoria doesn't have to give up - she doesn't usually tackle the hard core cases which is much better for her health and her TV ratings.

BTW, What is a "submissive reactive" dog. Have to admit that is a new one for me. They would seem to be mutually exclusive terms!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ceasar's methods were useless for my aunt and uncles Lab. Someone around the block from me has a GSD, Ceasar's methods didn't work for him either. I don't know if they used Victoria's methods.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Ceasar's methods were useless for my aunt and uncles Lab. Someone around the block from me has a GSD, Ceasar's methods didn't work for him either. I don't know if they used Victoria's methods.


Often not the method but how it is applied!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Often not the method but how it is applied!


They tried them many times, still no luck. They found other ways.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> They tried them many times, still no luck. They found other ways.


 
I meant that they might have needed a pro trainer if the dog was a tough case.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Many people would euthanize a dog if it were totally out of control with DA. Esp. if they could not control it at all. What would you recommend with such a dog? Esp. if you don't feel that physical corrections would work to teach a dog to control itself?


 Actually, physical corrections for this sort of reactive behavior often only make it worse by adding to the arousal level or worse still, cause the dog to redirect to the handler. 

Off the top of my head, I have used abandonment training with good success on dogs who were reactive to dogs/kids while out on leash. Depending on the dog, counter conditioning can also work well, as can...well training the dog. A lot of people have reported very good success with the BAT method for aggression towards people and dogs as well.




codmaster said:


> You of course realize that it has been many generations since most of the bully breeds have ever been in the pit and certainly I would guess that most bully breeders are not selecting for the tendency to fight, are they?


 Because dog fighting is so rare?



codmaster said:


> Seems like we tend to see a lot of folks on this forum who lament the dissappearance of certain traits in the GSD after only a relatively few generations. Wouldn't the same thing happen in the bully breeds; or are they perhaps immune to the inheritance genetics of other breeds?


 Part of the problem of selecting bully breeds away from their "gameness" or any breed away from key temperament traits is that you risk changing the breed as a whole. Genetics generally don't work in a way where you can select for or against single traits. Many traits are tied in with other traits, inherited as clusters. These clusters can be physical or temperament related or even more interesting both physical and temperament related. For example, X temperament trait may be inherited with Y and Z physical traits. If you started selecting GSDs for super gregarious temperaments, over multiple generations you most likely would start to see physical changes in the dogs, as well as other characteristic temperament traits being lost. And at a point, they would stop being GSDs, in looks or temperament.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I meant that they might have needed a pro trainer if the dog was a tough case.


They just needed help for minor problems and Ceasar's methods didn't help. So they used other methods.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> They just needed help for minor problems and Ceasar's methods didn't help. So they used other methods.


Jessie,

Ever think that maybe it wasn't the method but the way it was applied/used? Ceasar seems to have a very instinctive method and depends a lot on the individual use of it.

Unless you actually see someone doing the training it is very hard to know whether the method is at fault or it's use.

For example, if you were using a clicker and the trainer was consistently either too late to click or to give the associated reward or maybe too early to do so; then it wouldn't work very well. Would you then say the "Clicker training didn't work!"?

BTW what did they use that was successful?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Actually, physical corrections for this sort of reactive behavior often only make it worse by adding to the arousal level or worse still, cause the dog to redirect to the handler.
> 
> *And often does work, as it has in one of my dogs - but the correction does have to be applied at the right time before the dog gets too involved. It also depends greatly on the individual dog whether a correction will work or not and of course the level of correction must be appropriate to the dog and his/her level of arousal.*
> 
> ...


Thanks for the quick lesson in genetics! It does sort of prove my point but it would be a lot more useful if you had any evidence that DA is actually inherited in the bully breeds.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Jessie,
> 
> Ever think that maybe it wasn't the method but the way it was applied/used? Ceasar seems to have a very instinctive method and depends a lot on the individual use of it.
> 
> ...


 
Like I said previously I don't know what other method they used but it wasn't Ceasar's. I have seen them use and they told us about Ceasar, but then they realized it wasn't working so theys stopped using it.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Unless you actually see someone doing the training it is very hard to know whether the method is at fault or it's use.


And this is why so many people are unsuccessful at training because they watch a tv show, videos, use message boards or read books but really don't understand the concept.. I guess it's like trying to be a mechanic or plumber from a book.. You just never get it unless you have a good teacher/instructor to make sure you are doing it correctly..

They see a method but don't really know how to apply or understand it fully. So it back fires!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

G-burg said:


> And this is why so many people are unsuccessful at training because they watch a tv show, videos, use message boards or read books but really don't understand the concept.. * I guess it's like trying to be a mechanic or plumber from a book*.. You just never get it unless you have a good teacher/instructor to make sure you are doing it correctly..
> 
> They see a method but don't really know how to apply or understand it fully. So it back fires!


Actually, you can totally learn these things from a book. DH and I built our own house that way, including plumbing and electrical. But I agree with the point you were trying to make. Even if you attend obedience classes and see an instructor in action, it can still be hard to bring that lesson home and apply it to your dog. I also think some of us have a natural talent towards training (not myself unfortunately) and that makes us wonder why others can't seem to make their own dogs behave properly.


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## Dawn (Jun 23, 2010)

I like victoria over ceasser...he makes me nervous in his training.

Victoria is coming to our area in October and using some of shelter dogs in her show.
should be intersting.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

i'm going to point out one thing...isn't Cesar a behaviorist? cuz he mentions in his show "he rehabilitates dogs and trains people" so doesn't that make him a behaviorist? behaviorist and trainer are two different things.


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## lovemybuddy (Oct 26, 2009)

I take bits and pieces from both, and from books I read, etc. What a like about Ceasar is his advice to be calm and assertive with your dog. Buddy really responds well to this. I like how Ceasar builds a person's confidence around their dogs. I used this with my son, told him to imagine how he felt after he hits a homerun, and to feel that way as he is walking Buddy. His shoulders go back, his chest goes out, and his confidence is apparent. Buddy gets right in place and behaves well for my son when he is feeling confident. I also agree with Caesar in the area of making a dog work for his food (Buddy goes for a focused walk first thing every morning), that a tired dog is a good dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries, and limitations. (Heck, I think all of the above works when raising kids, too, lol!!) I don't use all of what Caesar teaches, but the stuff I mentioned really helps us in raising Buddy.

I like Victoria because she does a lot things that the trainer I go to does. So, it just makes sense to me, and to Buddy. (My trainer does not like Caesar, lol!) 

So, I like them both, only take away from them the things that are useful and work for us. 

I'm still learning, day by day, from Buddy, on what works for him. Still have issues that we're working on. But life would be boring if everything and everyone was perfect, right?


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Ceasar doesn't give "mixed signals" - just signals that the dog must learn to obey and be a good pack member.
> 
> Victoria doesn't have to give up - she doesn't usually tackle the hard core cases which is much better for her health and her TV ratings.
> 
> BTW, What is a "submissive reactive" dog. Have to admit that is a new one for me. They would seem to be mutually exclusive terms!


my dogis sumbmissive and reactive and ceasars stupid training made her worse! victoria is not hands on or harsh like him! hes stupid and insane. thats my opinion. i do not like him. dogs should be trained with positive training.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Jessie,
> 
> Ever think that maybe it wasn't the method but the way it was applied/used? Ceasar seems to have a very instinctive method and depends a lot on the individual use of it.
> 
> ...


 
i dont think you need a profecianal to train your dog, i also do not think its how you use it, its the method you use, differnt dogs, differnt training.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

lovemybuddy said:


> I take bits and pieces from both, and from books I read, etc. What a like about Ceasar is his advice to be calm and assertive with your dog. Buddy really responds well to this. I like how Ceasar builds a person's confidence around their dogs. I used this with my son, told him to imagine how he felt after he hits a homerun, and to feel that way as he is walking Buddy. His shoulders go back, his chest goes out, and his confidence is apparent. Buddy gets right in place and behaves well for my son when he is feeling confident. I also agree with Caesar in the area of making a dog work for his food (Buddy goes for a focused walk first thing every morning), that a tired dog is a good dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries, and limitations. (Heck, I think all of the above works when raising kids, too, lol!!) I don't use all of what Caesar teaches, but the stuff I mentioned really helps us in raising Buddy.
> 
> I like Victoria because she does a lot things that the trainer I go to does. So, it just makes sense to me, and to Buddy. (My trainer does not like Caesar, lol!)
> 
> ...


agreed


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom: * 
Codmaster, how many episodes of It's Me or the Dog have you watched?



codmaster said:


> Too many!


The reason I asked is because of comments like this:



codmaster said:


> Stillwell is ridiculous.


If you think she's "ridiculous", why do you watch her show? :thinking: Or maybe you've only seen a few episodes, in which case, statements like these don't mean much:



codmaster said:


> Did you ever see her handle a really people aggresive dog? A real "red zone" type case? *yea, me either.*





codmaster said:


> *BTW - have you ever seen Victoria handle a dog like this on her show? I have not *and don't expect to because i don't believe her method would work with a really hard core DA dog.





codmaster said:


> Victoria doesn't have to give up - *she doesn't usually tackle the hard core cases*...


If you haven't watched most or all of the episodes how can you possibly say whether or not she's handled a people or dog aggressive dog on her show? Maybe she has, on episodes that you didn't watch. I've only seen a few of Cesar's shows so I can't say with any kind of certainty what kind of dogs _he hasn't_ worked with, only those that he has, either because of the episodes I've seen, or clips of those episodes posted online.

BTW, I believe "red zone" is a term that Cesar made up, I'd never heard it used before he became a celebrity, not in any of the dozens of dog behavior books or articles I've read, and it still only seems to be used by him and devotees of his methods.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I had heard the term red zone before Cesar made it popular. When dogs get fearful aggressive to the extreme, you can see the red(where the white area should be) of their eyes, maybe that is why its called that? I witnessed it with Onyx at the vet.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> <snipped>
> But fear aggression is one of the worst things to manage and Victoria does deal with fear aggression to humans, without just giving the dog food and I have NEVER seen her give a "time out." If you could find a clip on that, I would be very interested to see it.


 
I've seen a couple of episodes where she uses time out. If memory serves it was one of her episodes filmed in Britain and the dog was an (of all things) Am. Staff.

Don't have time to find the clip, but I do recall that the dog was put into time out in a small room with a gate used to seperate the dog from the family.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *lovemybuddy*
> _I take bits and pieces from both, and from books I read, etc. What a like about Ceasar is his advice to be calm and assertive with your dog. Buddy really responds well to this. I like how Ceasar builds a person's confidence around their dogs. I used this with my son, told him to imagine how he felt after he hits a homerun, and to feel that way as he is walking Buddy. His shoulders go back, his chest goes out, and his confidence is apparent. Buddy gets right in place and behaves well for my son when he is feeling confident. I also agree with Caesar in the area of making a dog work for his food (Buddy goes for a focused walk first thing every morning), that a tired dog is a good dog, and that dogs need rules, boundaries, and limitations. (Heck, I think all of the above works when raising kids, too, lol!!) I don't use all of what Caesar teaches, but the stuff I mentioned really helps us in raising Buddy._
> 
> _I like Victoria because she does a lot things that the trainer I go to does. So, it just makes sense to me, and to Buddy. (My trainer does not like Caesar, lol!) _
> ...





shilorio said:


> agreed


Count me in the agreed column too.

The things I have learned about animals and trainers over the years, be it dogs, birds, horses what have you.......

Not every method works for every animal. Not every trainer is for every animal. The best trainers know how to read the animal and adjust their methods accordingly.

There just is not one size fits all training.

Generally speaking I think Victoria's methods work well for the average dog owner. Cesar's methods work in certain cases and I too agree with being calm and assertive, (not aggressive) works for me.

I have noticed that Cesar has started to use treats, though he did not make a big mention of it (it was the episode with the over the top aggressive Alaskan Malamute) mentioned at the end of the episode.

I've also noticed Victoria mentioning 'rewarding a dog when it is calm'. 

Sooooo.....even those two can learn from each other. 

btw- Victoria has a forum that I pop over to from time to time, interesting reading over there too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think a good trainer/instructor can demonstrate a method for dealing with an issue. After observing the owner's attempt to perform the method, they can either suggest ways to improve their technique, or they can suggest a different method to accomplish the same thing. 

I do not think dog training works in a seminar atmostphere or a tv show where we sit in rows of seats and watch the instructor/trainer apply the method. Out of 100 viewers, some will do so with success and some will not. But the idea that you have a dog with the exact same problem that is being dealt with, and you have the exact same demeaner of the person the trainer is working with, and can apply the exact same method with the exact same results is a bit much.

Once you have trained a number of different dogs, and have some inklings of dog language and behavior, you might glean some ideas and pointers from such sources. With whatever method, you still have to observe consistancy, and timing, and do the work. Then you can see what works and what does not work between you and your dog.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I've seen a couple of episodes where she uses time out. If memory serves it was one of her episodes filmed in Britain and the dog was an (of all things) Am. Staff.
> 
> Don't have time to find the clip, but I do recall that the dog was put into time out in a small room with a gate used to seperate the dog from the family.


 Properly and consistently used "time outs" can actually be pretty effective for certain problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with that, if the dog is seeking attention in inappropriate ways, I can see that working. I just never considered that a time out. It sounds like making the dog sit in the corner -- similar to what they do with little kids instead of a good spanking. 

I would call it limiting access to a specific room or to the people. Not crating, not giving in. 

I think a lot of people fail with positive training because they have a personality that is prone to giving in to the dog. Their personality will not let them go with traditional harsh methods of correction, and also makes them not follow through with positive training techniques because they view them as mean or as making their dog sad. This personality will fail with ANY training technique.


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Count me in the agreed column too.
> 
> The things I have learned about animals and trainers over the years, be it dogs, birds, horses what have you.......
> 
> ...


i agree totally! i read victorias book and watch her show and have visited her web site etc, shes great i think:hug:


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

selzer said:


> I agree with that, if the dog is seeking attention in inappropriate ways, I can see that working. I just never considered that a time out. It sounds like making the dog sit in the corner -- similar to what they do with little kids instead of a good spanking.
> 
> I would call it limiting access to a specific room or to the people. Not crating, not giving in.
> 
> I think a lot of people fail with positive training because they have a personality that is prone to giving in to the dog. Their personality will not let them go with traditional harsh methods of correction, and also makes them not follow through with positive training techniques because they view them as mean or as making their dog sad. This personality will fail with ANY training technique.


Spot on Selzer! I think positive reinforcement can work, but it can backfire as easily as compulsion if improperly implemented. But the difference seems like with the mis-use of positive reinforcement, you might get a spoiled and impulsive dog. Mis-use compulsion and you may end up with a dangerous dog who sees you as a threat.

A funny side note on "time-outs." I think it was in one of Ian Dunbar's books, he had sent one dog out of the room he was in due to some rule infraction. To add to the punishment, while the exiled dog watched from the doorway, Dunbar fed treats and gave praise to his other dog who was being good.

That must have really rubbed it in!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> I agree with that, if the dog is seeking attention in inappropriate ways, I can see that working. I just never considered that a time out. It sounds like making the dog sit in the corner -- similar to what they do with little kids instead of a good spanking.
> 
> I would call it limiting access to a specific room or to the people. Not crating, not giving in.


 Time outs are actually negative punishment - the removal of something the dog enjoys. In the case of time outs with dogs, it's the removal of being social and play. For example, I knew someone who was having some over stimulation issues with a high drive dog and their cat. The dog would play with the cat but it would get increasingly too prey oriented. They were (rightfully) concerned that this might not be safe for the cat. I suggested using time outs whenever the dog showed more than casual interest in the cat. And that it had to be every single time, without fail. The dog became much less interested in the cat because attempting to play rough games with the cat meant isolation. Time outs used with dogs should be very short and absolutely need to be consistent until the behavior extinguishes.

Time outs are quite effective for dogs who are overly mouthy in play or like to bark at their owners for attention. Sometimes it works to put the dog in time out (crate, tether or separate area) and sometimes it works best for the human to get up and leave the dog. Abandonement training is another example of negative punishment, used like a time out only in a much more extreme way.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Properly and consistently used "time outs" can actually be pretty effective for certain problems.


I agree with that. I've used it with my dog.


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## ilivenanigloo (Jul 6, 2006)

I think their methods work and that says a lot, however you have to adapt them to your situation. You need to watch both with an open mind and know when which trainer's method is appropriate or if you need to seek different methods. A single alpha roll significantly improved Lupa's behaviour toward other dogs and a prong collar helps keep her in check around other dogs. However, these "Ceasar" methods are over correction in every other situation. She's otherwise shy and needs the more positive rewards like Victoria teaches rather than the "because I'm alpha" method, which is how I did her basic obedience when she was a hard headed little puppy. She turned out fine, but she's changed with age and other methods are more appropriate. I think we can all agree that both teach a universal training rule: act like you're in charge and you will be. Victoria and Ceasar have their interpretations of this, but it's there. 

Also, since I am the sole person who trained her (though not without help and advice, mind you, but I was her only actual handler), she communicates best with me and we have an understanding she'll never have with someone else becuase she knows my unique communication style (whatever that is). 

You have to train for the dog like you have to drive for the car. All dogs are different and train differently and all cars drive differently. A good example is the command and treat thing. Lupa wouldn't accomplish much if I used food rewards rather than a ball. You just can't get one thing stuck in your head and try to force that ideal onto a dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Generally speaking I think Victoria's methods work well for the average dog owner. Cesar's methods work in certain cases and I too agree with being calm and assertive, (not aggressive) works for me.
> 
> I have noticed that Cesar has started to use treats, though he did not make a big mention of it (it was the episode with the over the top aggressive Alaskan Malamute) mentioned at the end of the episode.
> 
> ...


Cesar is not the first to suggest that we remain calm when training our dogs, or to be assertive vs wimpy in our dealings with them, he just made it into a buzzword that has caught on with the general public. Victoria did not "learn" this from him. Any decent trainer will tell you to remain calm, especially with a dog that is NOT calm, and to work with confidence and assurance. It annoys me when people act like this (and "treating a dog like a dog" and reminding people that dogs need sufficient exercise) are things that Cesar came up with on his own and that set him apart from other trainers. It's just not so! :headbang: 

EVERYBODY will tell you you need to give your dog plenty of exercise (not just physical, but mental too) and to interact with them as much as possible rather than just leaving them in the yard all day. EVERYONE will tell you that you need to treat dogs like dogs rather that furry little humans. And if you want your dog to be calm, reinforce THAT and stop reinforcing the kind of behavior that you DON'T want. I learned this in my first OB class with Cassidy 10 years ago, long before Cesar became famous - it was widely known and practiced for some time long before then. Really, none of this is at all new or revolutionary, and it's beyond me why Cesar gets all the credit for it.  

Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AgileGSD said:


> Time outs are actually negative punishment - the removal of something the dog enjoys. In the case of time outs with dogs, it's the removal of being social and play. For example, I knew someone who was having some over stimulation issues with a high drive dog and their cat. The dog would play with the cat but it would get increasingly too prey oriented. They were (rightfully) concerned that this might not be safe for the cat. I suggested using time outs whenever the dog showed more than casual interest in the cat. And that it had to be every single time, without fail. The dog became much less interested in the cat because attempting to play rough games with the cat meant isolation. Time outs used with dogs should be very short and absolutely need to be consistent until the behavior extinguishes.


I did this with Cassidy when I brought home Elvis as a kitten. She got to spend as much time with us in the cat room (I kept him separate from her for the first couple of months while we did supervised visits) as long as she behaved. As soon as she got too excited and blew me off she got immediately banished from the room - it was entirely within her control how much time she spent with him. It DID work!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.


Anything you learn can become dangerous if it is put into the wrong hands. As with all things learned, some people will use what they learn for good things and others for bad. The samething can be said about raising children. Everyone has a different way of raising.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

DCluver33 said:


> i'm going to point out one thing...isn't Cesar a behaviorist? cuz he mentions in his show "he rehabilitates dogs and trains people" so doesn't that make him a behaviorist? behaviorist and trainer are two different things.



Yes he states that all the time and people forget that. He takes on dogs that have psychological problems. He doesn't train dogs. Trains humans how to become better dogs owners.

I give him credit for all the rescue work that he does and taking on cases where dog trainers tell the owners to put down the dog.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Yes he states that all the time and people forget that. He takes on dogs that have psychological problems. He doesn't train dogs. Trains humans how to become better dogs owners.
> 
> I give him credit for all the rescue work that he does and taking on cases where dog trainers tell the owners to put down the dog.


that's what I thought, because a trainer and a behaviorist are two totally different things IMO.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Ace952 said:


> Yes he states that all the time and people forget that. He takes on dogs that have psychological problems. He doesn't train dogs. Trains humans how to become better dogs owners.


 Dogs with psychological problems such as???


All dog trainers/instructors/behaviorists/whatever they call themselves who work with owners one on one or in a group setting are actually training humans, not dogs. That is the nature of giving instruction on dog training to other people


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I know what you are saying. My grandparents (Opa was training GSDs in Germany before WWII) and parents trained dogs pretty darn well without the Cesars and Victorias of the world. Some of it is/was just plain common sense.

I think there has been a shift in the public perception of companion animals where they anthromorphize** more the generations past. Cesar and Victoria, using modern communications technology are the first to combat the trend. It's a good thing IMO. Why they get the credit, they are better at delivering their message, they have the certain quality or presence which lends itself to mass media.​ 
I see this with horse trainers as well. Monty Roberts 'mainstreamed' the whole horse whisperer training methodology and other trainers have become well known tweaking his methods or going in a completely different direction. They have to brand themselves in order to sell more books and videos.

One thing can be certain, I for one am glad that over all there has been a turn away from harsher cruel methods....for the most part.

Agree with you about Cesar's methods, as I said Victoria's methods are safer for the average dog owner.


(**I own a pet sitting service, I deal with the average pet owning 'masses'. I call 'em my clients.   Have pity on me!!  Actually most people I deal with are wonderful and really do mean well. Some are misguided though.... )






Cassidy's Mom said:


> Cesar is not the first to suggest that we remain calm when training our dogs, or to be assertive vs wimpy in our dealings with them, he just made it into a buzzword that has caught on with the general public. Victoria did not "learn" this from him. Any decent trainer will tell you to remain calm, especially with a dog that is NOT calm, and to work with confidence and assurance. It annoys me when people act like this (and "treating a dog like a dog" and reminding people that dogs need sufficient exercise) are things that Cesar came up with on his own and that set him apart from other trainers. It's just not so! :headbang:
> 
> EVERYBODY will tell you you need to give your dog plenty of exercise (not just physical, but mental too) and to interact with them as much as possible rather than just leaving them in the yard all day. EVERYONE will tell you that you need to treat dogs like dogs rather that furry little humans. And if you want your dog to be calm, reinforce THAT and stop reinforcing the kind of behavior that you DON'T want. I learned this in my first OB class with Cassidy 10 years ago, long before Cesar became famous - it was widely known and practiced for some time long before then. Really, none of this is at all new or revolutionary, and it's beyond me why Cesar gets all the credit for it.
> 
> Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yes, he's brought some common sense to the clueless masses who previously had no idea that you have to actually TRAIN a dog, and he deserves some credit for that. But that can actually be dangerous because some of those clueless masses are going to be inclined to try some of his methods, disclaimer aside, that they have no business trying on their own.


That's just TV. I'm a personal trainer and say the same things all the time about the Biggest Loser. A lot of what Cesar does is done for good TV, just like people on TBL losing 15-20lb per week, and is no more realistic. IMHO, anybody who thinks they should alpha-roll their aggressive Rottweiler or try to lose 25lb in one week deserves what they get.


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## CalmLeader (Sep 2, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> Cesar's dominance theory and his constant comparison between dogs and wolves are outdated. Stick around this forum for a while and read some of the research on the dominance theory that's out there. Maybe you'll learn something that goes beyond "if the dog doesn't do what I want it to do, the dog is trying to be dominant and take charge and doesn't respect me as a leader."
> 
> 
> 
> In nature, the "dominant" dog does not physically grab and force another dog onto its side to make it submit. Submission by rolling over is an OFFERED behavior, not a forced one. And, in nature, another dog does not choke a dog by a slip collar to make it behave. Well, not that I've seen, anyway.


I appreciate your thoughful post but offer 2 points of view:

I have a 4 year old GSD myself who I rescued from a shelter over a year ago. When I adopted him he had animal aggression issues and wanted to eat my cats and get any dog he saw (except my own other dogs). Using Cesar Millan's approach of calm-asssertive leadership and not letting my GSD dog get away with anything have turned him around. We are now training for the CGC test later this year and he no longer cares about my cats. He even corrects my 11 month old pit bull when she takes an interest in the cats. With other dogs he gets along fine now if they are calm or playful. He still gets excited and wants to play but only really has issues now when another dog is aggressive or dominant (mounting or other challenges) towards him. Overall it is a great succes story and Cesar's Way was what worked for me and many other dogs I have trained.

I do also see my pit bull and german shepherd play every day and he will absolutely alpha-roll my pit bull if she gets out of line or plays too rough (which she does regularly - she's a pit ). It does work for those two so I can't really agree with your statement that dogs don't do that.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Dogs with psychological problems such as???
> 
> 
> All dog trainers/instructors/behaviorists/whatever they call themselves who work with owners one on one or in a group setting are actually training humans, not dogs. That is the nature of giving instruction on dog training to other people


 
Exactly nd that is why Cesar always says, "I train humans". 

As far as the dog's psychological problems?? They get them from having owners who have no clue about how to work with them and end up screwing up the dog.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Ace952 said:


> As far as the dog's psychological problems?? They get them from having owners who have no clue about how to work with them and end up screwing up the dog.


 What do you consider psychological problems in dogs?



CalmLeader said:


> I do also see my pit bull and german shepherd play every day and he will absolutely alpha-roll my pit bull if she gets out of line or plays too rough (which she does regularly - she's a pit ). It does work for those two so I can't really agree with your statement that dogs don't do that.


I'm not sure what you're seeing that you have deemed an "alpha roll" but you may want to be careful not to let the play get to this point. Repeated exposure to such interactions can trigger APBTs to decide to fight.


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## Victoria_Lynn (Nov 14, 2009)

Victoria's method work in theory, but when applied in an "everyday scenario"...not so much.

Cesear is the bomb! I love his proven theory. I've tried several of his techniques on my chi mix and it has totally worked. 

Maya, my GSD, is naturally well behaved. I'm convinced she is the smartest and most obedient dog on the planet!


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## CalmLeader (Sep 2, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> What do you consider psychological problems in dogs?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you're seeing that you have deemed an "alpha roll" but you may want to be careful not to let the play get to this point. Repeated exposure to such interactions can trigger APBTs to decide to fight.


 
I do know the difference between play and fight. My two guys just play rough with each other and so do many powerful dogs I have observed over the years. I am glad to have 2 dogs who can play with one another in a meaningful way. They both have an outlet for this side of them that I as a person would not be able to provide. It's just one of the benefits of having multiple dogs of the same engery level and intensity. It's a good thing. I generally find watching dogs play very educational about their natural way of being.


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