# 3.5 yo showing more dog aggression



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Ranger never started showing any dog agression at all until he was about 2 yo. Even then it was only barking at a few dogs that seemed were reactive themselves. Ever since our older dog (Buzz) passed about a year ago the problem has gotten worse. I am staring to think that Ranger felt that Buzz was "protecting" him and now he feels vulnerable. His barking and pulling toward other dogs has gotten worse and worse culminating in todays incident. A female dog that he sees occassionally and has been friendly with in the past approached him with her tail wagging. I was talkng to another neighbor so I wasn't paying attention like I should have. The owners of the other dog approached because they "knew" Ranger was friendly. Well, as she got close he lunged and barked, fur up, very scary, but no biting or injury. 

I have tried to carry treats and distract him by telling him to "look" (at my face) when I see another dog. The technique is effective about 60% of the time but If I don't see some oncoming dogs and don't act quickly enough his behavior is poor. 

Today was the first time he actually behaved poorly when a dog got up close. Normally he is friendly if he actually gets close to the dog he is barking at.

I am thinking that this is fearful behavior so I suspect I am not making him feel confident and comfortable when I am out with him. Any suggestions? I hate having a GSD that feeds into peoples' stereotypes about the breed. I don't want him to be scaring my neighbors when I walk him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why do you let him pull and bark? What I see in your post implies you are humanizing his behavior. Would you let a child run amuck and not give a correction of some sort?

I don't care what causes the behavior. I've found the solution is the same. Up your obedience. My dogs do not have to like other dogs. They do need to accept the other dogs right to breathe.

Sit! and Shut Up! No? Well then you get a correction. Your dog is a fully matured adult. Make him sit and behave. No more treats to bribe him into being good. No more distracting him. Let him see the other dog. But let him know what behavior is appropriate and what isn't.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Why do you let him pull and bark? What I see in your post implies you are humanizing his behavior. Would you let a child run amuck and not give a correction of some sort?
> 
> I don't care what causes the behavior. I've found the solution is the same. Up your obedience. My dogs do not have to like other dogs. They do need to accept the other dogs right to breathe.
> 
> Sit! and Shut Up! No? Well then you get a correction. Your dog is a fully matured adult. Make him sit and behave. No more treats to bribe him into being good. No more distracting him. Let him see the other dog. But let him know what behavior is appropriate and what isn't.


Good advice. Some dogs, mine included, take the correction and it amps them up more. Mine doesn't lunge, pull, bark at other dogs...but when I he does something stupid, I correct him and that just seems to agitate him more...it doesn't stop the behavior.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Why do you let him pull and bark? What I see in your post implies you are humanizing his behavior. Would you let a child run amuck and not give a correction of some sort?
> 
> I don't care what causes the behavior. I've found the solution is the same. Up your obedience. My dogs do not have to like other dogs. They do need to accept the other dogs right to breathe.
> 
> Sit! and Shut Up! No? Well then you get a correction. Your dog is a fully matured adult. Make him sit and behave. No more treats to bribe him into being good. No more distracting him. Let him see the other dog. But let him know what behavior is appropriate and what isn't.


Um, I am asking for advice to achieve what you are describing. If I could just correct him and get him to sit I would have done that a while ago. I am not proud of having poor control of my dog but I was hoping someone could help me here. As I said I would like to make Ranger a good representative of the breed so I have sought a trainer to help. She worked with us and suggested the "look" command. If that is not a good idea I would like another suggestion. Are you daying to use a prong collar and give a "pop". I have never figured out how to do that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think what you'll probably see is that he's going to learn to look, take the treat, then go back to doing whatever he wanted to do in the first place. Are you saying you're unsure about how to actually correct with a pop, or just not sure how to set it up so that he understands what you're popping him for?


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Rangers_mom said:


> Um, I am asking for advice to achieve what you are describing. If I could just correct him and get him to sit I would have done that a while ago. I am not proud of having poor control of my dog but I was hoping someone could help me here. As I said I would like to make Ranger a good representative of the breed so I have sought a trainer to help. She worked with us and suggested the "look" command. If that is not a good idea I would like another suggestion. Are you daying to use a prong collar and give a "pop". I have never figured out how to do that.


Let me first say that I haven't read the other posts (and should have). But I think I get the idea here...

If the trainer you went to is an all "positive reinforcement" trainer, that's like having a headstrong three-year-old boy reaching for a hot burner on the stove, and the mother saying in a soft, gentle, whispery voice, "sonny, don't touch that, it might burn you..."

YES, you need to pop him with whatever collar you use. I would discourage a prong collar right now, unless you have an experienced working dog trainer who can teach you how to fit it and use it correctly. Whatever collar, dog should be on a loose leash, and when he misbehaves, you give it a good hard jerk, probably to the side toward you, then immediately let it be loose again (you may have to use some good leather gloves for this). If he doesn't stop (or does it again), repeat the correction. Make sure you are holding the leash far enough away to give him some slack, but close enough to be able to give him a hard snappy correction. Be prepared for as long as it takes to get him to give you at least 10 seconds of good behavior, then turn and walk in the opposite direction. Depending on how much of a butthead he is being, you will have to repeat this enough to make him take notice. I wish I could tell you how long everything will take, but it depends on the dog. 

Hopefully you have a large, fenced yard where you can work with him. The first thing you should achieve with him is a recall... There are threads on the forum that discuss the recall, they are a good place to start, also.

Really, a good trainer, one who trains working dogs (schutzhund, IPO), would be your best bet. He or she could teach you how to train your dog.

German shepherds are intelligent, but can be bull headed, too, if they get the upper hand. Get help.

Susan


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Rangers_mom said:


> I hate having a GSD that feeds into peoples' stereotypes about the breed.


I mean this sincerely, don't worry about what people think. This is between you and your dog. If you think about other people's opinions, it can get in the way of the confidence that's a big help with the training. I think it's a big reason people go the treat route. Worrying about what people are going to think.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Focus is everything for a reactive dog. I use watch me and I haven't used treats in forever. It's taught with treats but those go away pretty quick. There are a few different things you can do, but the main thing is to not let him focus on another dog to begin with. I spent hours everyday for months training this with great success.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

eddie1976E said:


> Good advice. Some dogs, mine included, take the correction and it amps them up more. Mine doesn't lunge, pull, bark at other dogs...but when I he does something stupid, I correct him and that just seems to agitate him more...it doesn't stop the behavior.


then you aren't correcting him in a manner that is effective for him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rangers_mom said:


> Um, I am asking for advice to achieve what you are describing. If I could just correct him and get him to sit I would have done that a while ago. I am not proud of having poor control of my dog but I was hoping someone could help me here. As I said I would like to make Ranger a good representative of the breed so I have sought a trainer to help. She worked with us and suggested the "look" command. If that is not a good idea I would like another suggestion. Are you daying to use a prong collar and give a "pop". I have never figured out how to do that.


You are in the Philly area? do you have a good trainer now?

You now have a fully matured, strong male that could probably face plant you. Maybe it's time to find a trainer that can help you with corrections? It is so much more beneficial to have a trainer hands on than to try to describe it online. 

If you want, I can check with some IPO people in your general area and see who they suggest.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You are in the Philly area? do you have a good trainer now?
> 
> You now have a fully matured, strong male that could probably face plant you. Maybe it's time to find a trainer that can help you with corrections? It is so much more beneficial to have a trainer hands on than to try to describe it online.
> 
> If you want, I can check with some IPO people in your general area and see who they suggest.


YES. Good advice from Jax08!

Susan


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Thank you to everyone who responded. I really appreciate it. There were a lot of good ideas. I especially appreciated the private message with the description of how to teach "look". It makes so much sense to do it in the yard or house before I go out on a walk. It is so obvious I feel like a dope that I didn't think of it. I think I am going to work on look and other commands and then if it is not improving I will take up the offer of recommendation for a trainer.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I got busy as seems to happen at this tiem of year.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

So, what happens when you take him out of the yard and he doesn't look?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Rangers_mom said:


> Thank you to everyone who responded. I really appreciate it. There were a lot of good ideas. I especially appreciated the private message with the description of how to teach "look". It makes so much sense to do it in the yard or house before I go out on a walk. It is so obvious I feel like a dope that I didn't think of it. I think I am going to work on look and other commands and then if it is not improving I will take up the offer of recommendation for a trainer.
> 
> Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I got busy as seems to happen at this tiem of year.


You start without distractions and then venture out with distractions. I spent hours everyday in front of Petsmart(20 ft from door, then 15 ft, and so on until we were able to go in) it would be 20 ft and one dog for a couple days, then 20 ft and two dogs, etc. then I would go to the park and do the same thing. Always leave on a good note while your ahead of the game. Midnite wore a prong because it made me feel better and more in control, I never had to correct him.

There are other things too, but focus is first and foremost.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Are you saying to use a prong collar and give a "pop". I have never figured out how to do that.


So what are you going to do when you take him out and he doesn't look Rangers Mom? You've already tried the look plan and seen the flaw. Look means your looking at him too. I think it would be best if you went with what Jax offered, someone who can show you how to teach him he can't do that first, then you can give him something better to do.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> So what are you going to do when you take him out and he doesn't look Rangers Mom? You've already tried the look plan and seen the flaw. Look means your looking at him too. I think it would be best if you went with what Jax offered, someone who can show you how to teach him he can't do that first, then you can give him something better to do.


The flaw is the dog doesn't know the command. He isn't going to do something consistently if he doesn't know what is being asked of him.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> So, what happens when you take him out of the yard and he doesn't look?


Not sure i understand your question. I have been working on look when we see another dog while I walk him. At first it wasn't working so well. Now I can get him to look me in the face with or without a treat when we are passing a dog about 60% of the time. I don't know why I never thought of trying it in my yard without other dogs. It seems like a no brainer.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

llombardo said:


> You start without distractions and then venture out with distractions. I spent hours everyday in front of Petsmart(20 ft from door, then 15 ft, and so on until we were able to go in) it would be 20 ft and one dog for a couple days, then 20 ft and two dogs, etc. then I would go to the park and do the same thing. Always leave on a good note while your ahead of the game. Midnite wore a prong because it made me feel better and more in control, I never had to correct him.
> 
> There are other things too, but focus is first and foremost.


Thanks for the idea. Petsmart is a good idea. Lots of opportunity for practice and easy to keep a distance. I like it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Rangers_mom said:


> Thanks for the idea. Petsmart is a good idea. Lots of opportunity for practice and easy to keep a distance. I like it.


They didn't like me at the doggie day camp there. It's all glass and once we made it into the store I took advantage of the dogs behind the glass. It was perfect because Midnite knew they were there but he also knew he couldn't get near him. It helped a lot.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ yes, but, either way she will need to start over. new cue and higher value treats. surely "look" has become nothing but noise to him at this point. there is a difference between training and management... your steps are correct in teaching the behavior but in the meantime, when encountering dogs, he needs to be managed....ie, corrected, to let him know that barking/lunging is not acceptable.

engagement, redirection.... it doesn't come natural for everyone... I like your instruction however many times I've seen folks sitting outside of a dog park or pet store waiting and waiting and waiting and their dog is completely checked out and focused on other things.... this is where a leash pop can snap them out of it, and in that split second that you've captured their attention - maximize it! animated voice, tug, rapid treat delivery, back away from the distraction in an engaged and less forceful/battle type of way that can encourage resistance.

I don't know.... I'm just babbling now... too hard to explain on a message board. in my opinion, both you and steve are correct but I believe the OP will need a trainer to bridge the gap and piece things together appropriately.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The point is to never let the dog focus on anything, especially in training mode. You see a dog coming. Your dog is put into a sit and the exercise has already started. Your dog knows that dog is there and it's conditioning him to ignore that dog and eventually it trickles down to all dogs. 

I've also incorporated Let's go in a happy voice and turn around to go the other way. You can also throw treats down and have him hunting for the treats as the other dog passes. He knows that dog is there but he is focused on finding those treats. 

I would change the name of the command from look, which he already knows that he can or can't obey. I would switch it to watch me and start over. I would also use a very high value treat. We used raw venison(oh what a mess that was).


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

rangers mom... because you used the word "distract" I'm concerned about your timing and how you're actually executing the look command. a finished response would be one that has been conditioned in such a way that the sight of another dog is bring his attention back to you with, without, or in anticipation of the actual command. this is why starting in the yard then at a distance, etc etc is important.... to keep him under threshold and every dog he sees equals a food reward. if you get to the point of needing to correct him for reacting.... that's basically your error that he's paying for but both (rewards and punishments) need to be present imo to some degree for him to understand which behavior gets what. you don't want the sight of another dog to equal a correction - that is not going to help his underlying insecurities and emotional state. so if you can.... at least for a few sessions... have a trainer come out and either teach, mentor or observe you.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I think you should try group training classes with a trainer that uses the prong. Then maybe one or two private lessons in your neighborhood. Kind of re-start your dog. I like the group classes because there are so many dogs there and so many opportunities to "leave it" (ignore the other dogs) hopefully a trainer will focus on this! Maybe after several months with the prong you can try to gradually go off the prong and do intensive training with the "looK" at you when you pass a dog or person with a treat or toy. Your dog reminds me of our old neighbor's Rottweiler that we used to babysit. He was a great dog with neighbors and kids until he turned about 2 yrs old then gradually got more protective, and I noticed they kept him inside more often and then moved so I don't know if he ever grew out of it. Our Molly lunged when she was younger, along with the group classes, we found that she really liked agility, so maybe you can also find a dog sport to do for fun, get some energy out, and it will be mentally stimulating. Our trainer incorporated agility into his classes and everyone, even the humans went home tired.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Jax08 is spot on. You have got to be able to muster an effective correction when necessary. Perhaps to you it will seem an embarrassing public display or even overly harsh/abusive correction but it sounds like your dog's got your number. You are the master, he is your charge! 

Fitting a prong collar correctly and using it properly isn't rocket science, for heaven's sake! This is do-able, you can do this!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gretchen said:


> I think you should try group training classes with a trainer that uses the prong. Then maybe one or two private lessons in your neighborhood. Kind of re-start your dog. I like the group classes because there are so many dogs there and so many opportunities to "leave it" (ignore the other dogs) hopefully a trainer will focus on this! Maybe after several months with the prong you can try to gradually go off the prong and do intensive training with the "looK" at you when you pass a dog or person with a treat or toy. Your dog reminds me of our old neighbor's Rottweiler that we used to babysit. He was a great dog with neighbors and kids until he turned about 2 yrs old then gradually got more protective, and I noticed they kept him inside more often and then moved so I don't know if he ever grew out of it. Our Molly lunged when she was younger, along with the group classes, we found that she really liked agility, so maybe you can also find a dog sport to do for fun, get some energy out, and it will be mentally stimulating. Our trainer incorporated agility into his classes and everyone, even the humans went home tired.


Training classes would be ideal, but from personal experience the dog will be put behind a barrier(which IMO makes it worse), will get kicked out of class or won't be accepted(based on an evaluation). Most trainers are not going to have the rest of the class uneasy because of one dog. Again this was my experience and it was just as frustrating for me as it was for Midnite. I knew that group classes would have worked great if they gave us a shot. 

Timing is everything when training and if the OP feels that can't hit that perfect time then a trainer should be involved. 

I would definitely use a prong, not necessarily for corrections but for peace of mind and having some kind of control. there is a good chance that the dog with the prong on will self correct, but again the prong has to be used and put on the right way. In this case I would also suggest a second collar for added security.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Training classes would be ideal, but from personal experience the dog will be put behind a barrier(which IMO makes it worse), will get kicked out of class or won't be accepted(based on an evaluation). Most trainers are not going to have the rest of the class uneasy because of one dog. Again this was my experience and it was just as frustrating for me as it was for Midnite. I knew that group classes would have worked great if they gave us a shot.
> 
> Timing is everything when training and if the OP feels that can't hit that perfect time then a trainer should be involved.
> 
> I would definitely use a prong, not necessarily for corrections but for peace of mind and having some kind of control. there is a good chance that the dog with the prong on will self correct, but again the prong has to be used and put on the right way. In this case I would also suggest a second collar for added security.


I have been lucky as none of the trainers I've been to reject dogs, although they probably do some one on one prior to enrolling to get a feel for the dog it the owner states it does have issues. Our main trainer does not allow any dog to dog interaction, not even before or after class. Almost half the dogs are GSDs and the trainers know their temperaments, most of them have GSDs. In our advanced class we can have over 30 dogs together, some may have tendencies to be dog to dog aggressive, but they do not act out in class,. We will have them all on a down stay, off leash and are able to walk away from them - out of sight.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gretchen said:


> I have been lucky as none of the trainers I've been to reject dogs, although they probably do some one on one prior to enrolling to get a feel for the dog it the owner states it does have issues. Our main trainer does not allow any dog to dog interaction, not even before or after class. Almost half the dogs are GSDs and the trainers know their temperaments, most of them have GSDs. In our advanced class we can have over 30 dogs together, some may have tendencies to be dog to dog aggressive, but they do not act out in class,. We will have them all on a down stay, off leash and are able to walk away from them - out of sight.


It is very different when you go to a regular class versus let's say a GSD club. There is never suppose to be any dog to dog interaction. When Midnite was put behind the barrier, two different people lost control of their dogs and they both ran up to Midnite--what a nightmare. The GSD club definitely has better experienced gsd trainers and people.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Rangers_mom said:


> Not sure i understand your question. I have been working on look when we see another dog while I walk him. At first it wasn't working so well. Now I can get him to look me in the face with or without a treat when we are passing a dog about 60% of the time. I don't know why I never thought of trying it in my yard without other dogs. It seems like a no brainer.


There's going to be very strong disagreement with me, but I look at what you're doing as avoidance and making him dependent on the security of eye contact with you. You can't change temperament. It is what it is. You can teach them to behave though, which is what Jax brought up.

Solid obedience under distraction is different then looking at you for a treat. It may not seem like a difference, but the dog learning to deal with the bogey man and behave is the opposite of don't look at it and it will go away. Thats not true focus. Distance is still your friend, but the behavior is different. 

My preference is to be able to relax while my dog behaves. If I'm talking to someone he's going to lay down or sit. I'm not going to try and keep his attention through that. There's plenty of times I demand focus/attention, but I don't want to have to depend on it to function in public. Sorry to those who are going to take that personal, I don't mean it that way, but its my opinion based on what I come across with people and dogs.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> There's going to be very strong disagreement with me, but I look at what you're doing as avoidance and making him dependent on the security of eye contact with you. You can't change temperament. It is what it is. You can teach them to behave though, which is what Jax brought up.
> 
> Solid obedience under distraction is different then looking at you for a treat. It may not seem like a difference, but the dog learning to deal with the bogey man and behave is the opposite of don't look at it and it will go away. Thats not true focus. Distance is still your friend, but the behavior is different.
> 
> My preference is to be able to relax while my dog behaves. If I'm talking to someone *he's going to lay down or sit. *I'm not going to try and keep his attention through that. There's plenty of times I demand focus/attention, but I don't want to have to depend on it to function in public. Sorry to those who are going to take that personal, I don't mean it that way, but its my opinion based on what I come across with people and dogs.


 I agree - the "down stay" has been our best friend!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> My preference is to be able to relax while my dog behaves. If I'm talking to someone he's going to lay down or sit. I'm not going to try and keep his attention through that. There's plenty of times I demand focus/attention, but I don't want to have to depend on it to function in public. Sorry to those who are going to take that personal, I don't mean it that way, but its my opinion based on what I come across with people and dogs.


The goal is exactly this. It's very rare that I have to tell Midnite to watch me and it never happens with people. I can take him anywhere that there are dogs without a single issue, he just chills out. I don't have to tell him to sit or lay down, he just does, but it's something that has to be worked on to get to that end goal.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ @steve but does it always have to be one or the other? for example, I have a dog, not my personal dog, who is a good deal dog distracted. desire is to pull towards, jump, lunge, whatever (playful not reactive). behavior is interrupted (collar correction), distance is created by moving backwards away from the other dog - verbal/food/physical praise and play is all given to keep her with me... that stops, she looks at the other dog then back at me... yay another party happens. same routine except now we can pass the other dog, each look I get, it's rewarded, not with a party, but something. now it's been conditioned - see other dog - look at me for good things.... as you progress you can chose to reward the eye contact or just keep walking. reaction towards the other dog is gone and the reward is varied. I don't want to derail the thread but this has been my merger/happy medium and wondered if it could be something for the OP to work towards.

I'll add however that I don't use look or watch, I just capture it when it happens.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it's a combination of things.

1. Obedience. You WILL do this.
2. Behavior modification. This is HOW you will do this.
3. Reward. Yay! You did it!

But it can't just be one. You have to be willing to shut that reactivity down. Then use behavior modification and reward. But the obedience is key because you won't always have a reward with you and you have to be able to extend the duration. I found Look at That (LAT) to be far more effective than just Look. 

Go ahead and look, it's ok to look at what is worrying you. But you will NOT react and your reward is here with me. I think allowing them to look actually relaxes them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I have more confidence with an order of things like what Jax posted. Here's another one to irritate some people, but maybe with a softer, more compliant type of dog it's not one or the other, but with a stronger, more determined type, I'm more comfortable with you will first, before isn't this better. 

I get the point your making about active vs reactive with the obedience Fodder, but with some dogs you aren't going to ever get that until they know the option has been removed. Doing it the other way around, works for both.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I have more confidence with an order of things like what Jax posted. Here's another one to irritate some people, but maybe with a softer, more compliant type of dog it's not one or the other, but with a stronger, more determined type, I'm more comfortable with you will first, before isn't this better.


It does work in that order with a soft dog  It's how I did it with Jax. It works that way with a strong dog. It's how I did it with Seger. 

No fighting with them. Lay down the rules and expectations. Reward the right behavior. 

And most importantly - Do NOT get caught up in what you think everyone around you is thinking. Ignore them. Concentrate on your dog first.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

nods.

interestingly enough my softer dog is the over reactive emotional wreck and for him the approach was knock that off, do what I say not what you feel. for my confident more assertive dog I decided to collaborate - he's a thinker and did well knowing his options and choosing the more lucrative.

but, same end result, that's what counts.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I have one of each too.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

I have a hard Czech boy, and a soft, fear aggressive girl. A semi-harsh word will put her tail between her legs, whereas he needs a good, solid correction, otherwise anything else just rolls off his back like water. But with both of them, her because she does have the fear aggression, it is my word and no compromises.

I had a very hard DDR boy about 15 years ago, and a hard correction would bring a jaw open on my thigh, not closing, just there, with his eyes saying, "Now, correct this!" After first amping up my corrections and seeing the results (would have been a knock-down drawn out, and I just didn't feel like getting all that physical), I decided that since he wasn't hurting me, just protesting with a rock-head attitude, I would ignore it and walk through him, and he would have to come at the end of the leash or be dragged. A couple times, and he figured out that his threat wasn't working, so he complied. He ended up one of the best dogs, one of the most obedient, I have had.

Susan


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Rangers_mom said:


> Um, I am asking for advice to achieve what you are describing. If I could just correct him and get him to sit I would have done that a while ago. I am not proud of having poor control of my dog but I was hoping someone could help me here. As I said I would like to make Ranger a good representative of the breed so I have sought a trainer to help. She worked with us and suggested the "look" command. If that is not a good idea I would like another suggestion. Are you daying to use a prong collar and give a "pop". I have never figured out how to do that.


I gotta over over the thread again but ... the "look at me thing" depends on the "trainer" your working with??

I do "pets" I referance "Pet Trainers" and we don't give a crap "what the dog looks at" as long as he's not acting like a "fool" we'er good with that!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> I gotta over over the thread again but ... the "look at me thing" depends on the "trainer" your working with??
> 
> I do "pets" I referance "Pet Trainers" and we don't give a crap "what the dog looks at" as long as he's not acting like a "fool" we'er good with that!


No, "the look at me thing", does not depend on the trainer your working with. That statement completely lacks logic. It's a well known, well used, behavioral modification tool. 

And what exactly do you think our dogs are if not pets?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> There's going to be very strong disagreement with me, but I look at what you're doing as avoidance and making him dependent on the security of eye contact with you. You can't change temperament. It is what it is. You can teach them to behave though, which is what Jax brought up.
> 
> Solid obedience under distraction is different then looking at you for a treat. It may not seem like a difference, but the dog learning to deal with the bogey man and behave is the opposite of don't look at it and it will go away. Thats not true focus. Distance is still your friend, but the behavior is different.
> 
> My preference is to be able to relax while my dog behaves. If I'm talking to someone he's going to lay down or sit. I'm not going to try and keep his attention through that. There's plenty of times I demand focus/attention, but I don't want to have to depend on it to function in public. Sorry to those who are going to take that personal, I don't mean it that way, but its my opinion based on what I come across with people and dogs.


 Well ... I'm not going to disagree??

Actually I'll add people taking a dog they are "struggling" to control "into" Petsmart .... yeah "good luck" with that!

"Flexies" for everybody! If we don't get "carved"up to badly by a clueless owner and there badly behaved cur?? Next stop ... Dog Park city!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> No, "the look at me thing", does not depend on the trainer your working with. That statement completely lacks logic. It's a well known, well used, behavioral modification tool.
> 
> And what exactly do you think our dogs are if not pets?


As it happens ... I just went over this "look at me thing",with someone here "experienced" with it. It came up on BoxerFroum with a trainer they were working with??

It was new to me?? But "we" hashed out the difference in methods between us and we'er good! It was a PIA to me?? 

But "I'am" done with it! If people don't "see" a "difference" then they don't need to worry about it??

As for what is a Pet??? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet

And for those who have issue with Wiki

Pet | Definition of Pet by Merriam-Webster

Merry x-mas


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL Now that wasn't condescending at all. 


and a Happy New Year to you too.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> LOL Now that wasn't condescending at all.
> 
> 
> and a Happy New Year to you too.











Lost my car keys ...kinda grumpy.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Wow, this thread exploded while I was busy. I read through the whole thread and you guys really provided a lot of help. I had Ranger in a group class this summer to deal with this problem. Unfortunately I was only able to attend one of the group sessions as my schedule didn't work with the 4 classes. Ranger did fine in the group. We met at a local park which is very popular with dog walkers and worked on proper behavior. I am not sure that the trainer believed me that there was a problem because Ranger was a perfect gentleman the whole time. Ranger had been in group lessons before, probably about 30 hours before his 2nd birthday. He has never had any problems at all in group lessons. He also has several neighborhood dogs that he routinely interacts with, parallel walking or playing with in our yard. I am very hopeful that I can successfully work with him on his leash reactivity. I was going to hire a trainer for private lessons but maybe more group seessions would be a good idea. I really appreciate all of your input.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Rangers_mom said:


> Wow, this thread exploded while I was busy. I read through the whole thread and you guys really provided a lot of help. I had Ranger in a group class this summer to deal with this problem. Unfortunately I was only able to attend one of the group sessions as my schedule didn't work with the 4 classes. Ranger did fine in the group. We met at a local park which is very popular with dog walkers and worked on proper behavior. I am not sure that the trainer believed me that there was a problem because Ranger was a perfect gentleman the whole time. Ranger had been in group lessons before, probably about 30 hours before his 2nd birthday. He has never had any problems at all in group lessons. He also has several neighborhood dogs that he routinely interacts with, parallel walking or playing with in our yard. I am very hopeful that I can successfully work with him on his leash reactivity. I was going to hire a trainer for private lessons but maybe more group seessions would be a good idea. I really appreciate all of your input.


LOL ... yeah kind of happens a lot here, the OP's kinda sorta get forgotten about??

I see now that I offered no advice??? So ... I think you'll find a lot of useful information in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

Ask questions.


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