# Why do you care about papers...



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is what I was asked today.

Why I care about Yukons papers. I wouldn't need them to breed and could simply sell the pups for 300 Dollars. Wouldn't make much money but since I'm in the US I'd always be able to get rid of the pups. 

So pretty much... I was asked to be a BYB just because I've got two good dogs that would fit.

My bitch doesn't have her hips OFA'ed and I still don't have Yukons papers, both aren't certified but hey... at least Yukon has Excellent Hips and they are both on current shots.  :help::help::help:
So maybe I wouldn't be that bad... NOT!

Boy oh Boy...


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh jeez, people now and days.... LOL!


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## Tessa99999 (Apr 16, 2010)

I hate BYB =( I'm currently trying to convince my father to NOT breed his new English Bulldog, and it's tough. I will give him some credit though, as far as BYB go he's much closer to a legit breeder than most in my opinion.

(How could he not with a daughter like my nagging him constantly. hehe!)


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My uncle wanted to be a breeder and all he said were "All I need are papers", but otherwise I still hate BYBs.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't know if it's the part of the country we are in Sandra, but people really don't think twice about throwing together a couple of nice looking dogs and making some puppies. I think that the idea that you need papers and titles and health clearances in order to have a good breeding is very much in the minority here. I have not met anyone who takes these things into consideration before deciding to breed in my area.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> I don't know if it's the part of the country we are in Sandra, but people really don't think twice about throwing together a couple of nice looking dogs and making some puppies. I think that the idea that you need papers and titles and health clearances in order to have a good breeding is very much in the minority here. I have not met anyone who takes these things into consideration before deciding to breed in my area.


Definitely not just your area. Down here in the south, it's practically unheard of! As long as you have papers- AKC, UKC, CKC and first shots on the puppies, people think it's ok to breed. And Petland, omg! I go in there to get my dog food, and on weekends they are packed with people trying to buy these expensive little dogs with no history or knowledge of their background, where they came from, or their parents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is not a dig, but why buy food in a place where they are supporting the worst of the worst breeders? Why not put your money where your mouth is, and refuse to buy ANYTHING from a pet store that sells puppies?

We can pass laws and more laws, and more laws. But the reason there are **** holes with people treating dogs terribly is because people buy them. They buy them over the internet, they buy them from pet stores. 

Now, the people buying their dogs at PetLand, do you really think they are buying food there every week? They can get food cheaper and more conveniently at WalMart. They might buy a few supplies with the puppy, but they will walk out and then buy that pup's food and needs at your local discount house. 

The reason I say this, is that these are not dog-savvy people, else they would KNOW not to buy from pet stores. So they are not going to be the ones out there spending boo-ku bucks on their dogs at the pet stores, like we do. 

We, the dog savvy people. Rescuers, trainers, pet owners, breeders -- we could make a difference and not buy ANYTHING from a store that sells puppies. If you do not trust yourself, never enter. Don't just refuse to buy puppies, refuse to buy anything. Send a message with your dollars -- that actually DOES work.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I wonder what the papers you get when you get a puppy from a pet store look like. I think it might have made up names. At Barkworks the puppies come with papers, but not sure what they look like.


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I wonder what the papers you get when you get a puppy from a pet store look like. I think it might have made up names. At Barkworks the puppies come with papers, but not sure what they look like.


The pedigrees look the same as ours, though it is rare to see any titles at all. Registries vary from AKC to CKC. The most popular being APRI, puppy mills use this one the most. Most of the pedigrees have kennel names, some of the parents have interesting names, while others have the quintessential first and last name.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

RogueRed26 said:


> The pedigrees look the same as ours, though it is rare to see any titles at all. Registries vary from AKC to CKC. The most popular being APRI, puppy mills use this one the most. Most of the pedigrees have kennel names, some of the parents have interesting names, while others have the quintessential first and last name.


oh ok.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Honestly, I would love to, but there is NO WHERE else around here that sells quality food. The closest place is about an hour from here. I also don't feel that my buying dog food from them supports the sale of their dogs. My NOT buying dog food is not gonna affect or make people stop going in there to buy puppies. 



selzer said:


> This is not a dig, but why buy food in a place where they are supporting the worst of the worst breeders? Why not put your money where your mouth is, and refuse to buy ANYTHING from a pet store that sells puppies?
> 
> We can pass laws and more laws, and more laws. But the reason there are **** holes with people treating dogs terribly is because people buy them. They buy them over the internet, they buy them from pet stores.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> Honestly, I would love to, but there is NO WHERE else around here that sells quality food. The closest place is about an hour from here. I also don't feel that my buying dog food from them supports the sale of their dogs. My NOT buying dog food is not gonna affect or make people stop going in there to buy puppies.


Tihannah, you can always order online. 

This is a very good place. Just don't make the mistake I did and order two bags. As long as you stay below 60 pounds, shipping is free, as far as I remember.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tihannah said:


> Honestly, I would love to, but there is NO WHERE else around here that sells quality food. The closest place is about an hour from here. I also don't feel that my buying dog food from them supports the sale of their dogs. My NOT buying dog food is not gonna affect or make people stop going in there to buy puppies.


how long does it take to get to PetLand? If it takes half an hour, then go to the farther place and buy twice the dog food and go half as often. 

2 hour's drive (round trip) is not, in my opinion an acceptable excuse to support the horrors that breeder dogs live in all year round in puppy mills -- that is what PetLand is doing. 

It DOES make a difference. They sell puppies now and then, and they take losses probably on the pups. There is the purchase and transport prices, maintenance, so many of them get up beyond 12 weeks or whatever, and have to be reduced for sale, and so many will come back in a day or two with people wanting their money back -- not a lot. 

But a dog food sale is money in the bank. Every collar, every tag, every treat, every toy, all of it is properly marked up, and THAT is what is paying the salaries, the wages, the light bill and the rent. THAT is how to sock it to them where it hurts.

The REASON they have the puppies there is because puppies draw people into the store. They look at the puppies and then they go and by a gift or toy or leash they do not need. Cha Ching.

But the good steady money is coming from people who love to spend money on their dogs for the very best -- you and me. We CAN make a difference. We can vote with our wallets. 

If a breeder who had 500 dogs in filthy 2'x3' pens with open sores and dead dogs laying in the cages for days, were to sell your brand of dog food. And it was closer to you than PetLand, would you go there to buy it? There is NO difference.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Selzer, I hear you and completely understand but with the gas prices as they are, sometimes we can't afford to drive an hour just to get dog food. I'd do the same thing or order online, if that is cheaper.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs. K, sorry for the hijak. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your post is more exasperation of the attitude than actually opinions about what the importance of papers are. 

The unfortunate thing of it is, that even without papers, people can get 200 dollars a pup for shepherd puppies. People buying puppies for $200 aren't too picky. They are not expecting health screenings, and titles, and expensive dog food. They probably are not expecting first shots. And not doing even minimum vetting on the dogs, the breeder will indeed MAKE money at this rate. They will buy more bitches and breed every heat. When they miss a couple of times, they will take her out and shoot her, and put another in her place. They will make up stories about the dog used as a sire -- he's a police dog -- every one wants an honest to goodness police dog to sire their puppy. 

There are no health guarantees, and when these people leave with their pup, that is the end of the relationship, which is probably fine on both ends. If the pup gets some genetic disease, the purchaser finds a site like this and learns about BYBs and blames their decision in buying from such an individual. But they are not going to go after him, the pup was 200$ and did not even have papers. 

Furthermore, the breeder is probably not bothering to disclose what if anything he is making on the puppies. 5 bitches x 2 litters/year x 7 pups/litter x 200/puppy = $14,000 If you figure it costs him $200/month to feed them and cover any minor expenses, that is still over $10,000 free and clear at the end of the year to augment his girl friends welfare check or social security or his pay check. Not enough to live on, but certainly enough to encourage expanding the operation, and continue breeding. 

There is nothing wrong with making a profit on dogs if you are indeed going the distance and doing the right things. Because decent breeders do not generally have more litters than they can manage properly, and do not breed everything and anything, and their regular expensed include health screening, training, trialing, good nutrition, vetting, stud fees, registration, and so much more, they will be fortunate to be in the black at the end of the year. Since there will be a good paper trail, they will be reporting sales and earnings and paying tax and have the proper licensing as well. 

This is why people buying puppies for a nominal fee, for a small price, are actually encouraging bad breeding, much more so than the individual who pays a thousand or more. Sure, there are scoundrels who charge incredible amounts for puppies that are mediocre to exceptional, but for the most part, buyers who are willing to pay the going rate for an AKC puppy from a decent breeder will want to see some of what they are paying for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Selzer, I hear you and completely understand but with the gas prices as they are, sometimes we can't afford to drive an hour just to get dog food. I'd do the same thing or order online, if that is cheaper.


I would buy dog food from the grocery store before paying money to a puppy mill. I have been out of work for 2 years -- though I am working a day here, a day there, keeping a shop open for a few bucks when we make a sale -- I KNOW about hard times. I would not walk next door to buy dog food from a puppy mill, if it was on sale for half price. 

Gas prices stink, yes, but then you get creative. Something else has to come from that location -- hook the trips together. Go with a friend and trade driving. People normally figure out a way to do what they want to do. 

2 hours = approximately 100 miles. With an SUV, 100 miles @ 18 mpg = about 5.5 gallons. 5.5 gallons at 4.00/gallon = $22, give or take. So you will encourage the breeding of dogs in disgusting conditions in order to save $22/month? 

There is no excuse for this, when you think about it, and realize that that is what is actually happening. We CAN get creative when it matters to us.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I would buy dog food from the grocery store before paying money to a puppy mill. I have been out of work for 2 years -- though I am working a day here, a day there, keeping a shop open for a few bucks when we make a sale -- I KNOW about hard times. I would not walk next door to buy dog food from a puppy mill, if it was on sale for half price.
> 
> Gas prices stink, yes, but then you get creative. Something else has to come from that location -- hook the trips together. Go with a friend and trade driving. People normally figure out a way to do what they want to do.
> 
> ...


Honestly? Those 22$ can be essential. But since we all have internet there is always the possibility to order online, that way we even safe the gas to go to the store at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know about gas prices. I drove my SUV 100 miles yesterday to work 4 hours at a job, and my alternator died on my way back. $577 for the alternator and the tow, 75$ for the gas for 200 miles (there and back again to this job) and 150 miles (there and back again for the day before -- babysitting).

I know about gas prices. 

It does not make it alright though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs. K, I am currently getting $150/week to watch my sister's kids on Sundays. That is 75 miles away from home. I live alone, have a house payment AND a car payment that combined is almost a hundred dollars MORE than what I am certain to bring in. I KNOW about $22, why else would I drive a hundred miles each way for four hours' work. 

I won't take a job at the express cash place, because it is terrible what it does to people. 
I wouldn't buy dog food at a pet store that sells puppies, because it is terrible what it does to dogs. 

But please don't suggest I do not understand that $22 is money. It is certainly not enough money to justify buying a puppy from a puppy mill, is it? I mean, if a breeder is charging $1000, and a puppy mill is charging $978, are you going to buy from the puppy mill? If the puppy mill is charging $500, will you pay an extra $500 to buy from a breeder? Well you can get 12 trips to the further store for a lot less than $500.

It is sometimes the little things that we do or don't do that make all the difference in the long run.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Thank you for the very important reminder Selzer..sometimes we don't realize that even by buying products in these stores (other than the puppies themselves)...we are still helping to support this terrible practice. Yes...we can make a difference. 

jessie-Mya was purchased at a petstore by her original owners...and she had regular AKC papers....which also confirm she came from an Amish puppymill.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have a local petstore that sells puppies, and one that doesn't. Both offer the same products and grooming. When the one that sells puppies first opened, I asked them where they got their animals and what kind of dogs they could get. The response was "whatever the broker sends"

The one that sells puppies, sold a German "Shepard" puppy. Less than a week later, the people had called to return the puppy because it was "aggressive". Yep..that little monster attacked the back of their pants while they were outside. The pet store refused to take the puppy back (owner was on vaca and returned to late to override that decision), the shelter refused to take the puppy (told them to return it to the petstore) so the people were going to take it to the vet and euthanize it.

An acquaintance of mine heard about it, took the puppy and rehomed.

I am very vocal about not shopping there and why I don't. 

Now...how many people still want to support a store that sells puppies? For whatever reason. There are many ways to avoid shopping in these stores.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, I am currently getting $150/week to watch my sister's kids on Sundays. That is 75 miles away from home. I live alone, have a house payment AND a car payment that combined is almost a hundred dollars MORE than what I am certain to bring in. I KNOW about $22, why else would I drive a hundred miles each way for four hours' work.
> 
> I won't take a job at the express cash place, because it is terrible what it does to people.
> I wouldn't buy dog food at a pet store that sells puppies, because it is terrible what it does to dogs.
> ...


Look, I kept my reply short, because I did not want to argue with you, and I KNOW you are one that likes to argue and prove a point. If YOU feel that my buying dog food from these people is supporting puppy mills, then so be it. I don't agree, plain and simple. If no one bought dogs from these people and only food, supplies, toys, etc. then they would essentially be a Petsmart, and would not be able to support puppy mills. They sell those pups from $500 on up to $3500 a piece, and I can tell you that on any given weekend, you can go in there and see at least 6 or 7 people in there buying a dog, so don't tell me that my $30 bag of dog food is what's keeping them going. I don't NEED you to try and break down your logic of why it is or isn't. I order food online as well, but I'm not gonna make a 2 hour trip just to buy dog food when it costs me $80 to fill up my tank.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Here we have Barkworks. I am going to be apart of a protest to get it shut down.I believe oen of these protests actually made the place close down. I was a job fair and Barkworks was hiring. I told my friends do not apply there because they support puppy mills.

They sell supplies for dogs and cats(I did buy a dog treat there a long time ago when I didn't know better) I go to my local Petsmart if I need anything.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tihannah said:


> Look, I kept my reply short, because I did not want to argue with you, and I KNOW you are one that likes to argue and prove a point. If YOU feel that my buying dog food from these people is supporting puppy mills, then so be it. I don't agree, plain and simple. If no one bought dogs from these people and only food, supplies, toys, etc. then they would essentially be a Petsmart, and would not be able to support puppy mills. They sell those pups from $500 on up to $3500 a piece, and I can tell you that on any given weekend, you can go in there and see at least 6 or 7 people in there buying a dog, so don't tell me that my $30 bag of dog food is what's keeping them going. I don't NEED you to try and break down your logic of why it is or isn't. I order food online as well, but I'm not gonna make a 2 hour trip just to buy dog food when it costs me $80 to fill up my tank.


Ignorance is bliss, when you don't know about the horrific life dogs lead in the places that supply pet stores, you can buy a puppy there in good conscience. After it is done, it is done and you learn about it, hurl that you fueled that, and then move on. 

When someone knows and simply does not care, well, there is just nothing to say about that. 

I know I do not want my dollars to fuel any part of that horrific scene. If you don't care, well, it's a free country.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Here we have Barkworks. I am going to be apart of a protest to get it shut down.I believe oen of these protests actually made the place close down. I was a job fair and Barkworks was hiring. I told my friends do not apply there because they support puppy mills.
> 
> They sell supplies for dogs and cats(I did buy a dog treat there a long time ago when I didn't know better) I go to my local Petsmart if I need anything.


That's kool. We were able to shut the one at our mall -- 12 miles away from my home, down, because they sold puppies. We shut it down by refusing to buy anything from them. The store in Jefferson (4 miles from my house) had puppies, they did not last a season. 

Protests are good because it brings it to the forefront, the plight of the breeding dogs, the conditions they are forced to live in all year around. 

But what hurts them is when people go elsewhere to make their purchases -- all their purchases. If it wasn't making them money or bringing people in, they wouldn't have it in there. If the stuff is not selling, if they are losing money, they will have to change what they are doing or close it up. 

I travel to Petsmart or PetsSuppliesPlus about 50 minutes when I need something.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

selzer said:


> Ignorance is bliss, when you don't know about the horrific life dogs lead in the places that supply pet stores, you can buy a puppy there in good conscience. After it is done, it is done and you learn about it, hurl that you fueled that, and then move on.
> 
> When someone knows and simply does not care, well, there is just nothing to say about that.
> 
> I know I do not want my dollars to fuel any part of that horrific scene. If you don't care, well, it's a free country.


When you hear, know, or SEE me BUYING A PUPPY from a pet store, THEN you can tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Both Jessie and Jax gave examples of people BUYING PUPPIES. THOSE people are the ignorant ones. YOU are trying REAL HARD to make it seem like buying a BAG OF DOG FOOD and an ACTUAL DOG are the same thing but its NOT no matter how you try to analogize it. The ONLY thing that will shut down puppy mills is if people STOP buying the DOGS. PERIOD. The only person that would be affected by spending 2 hours on the road for food is ME, because like they have for 40 years, people will continue to buy those dogs. Your whole argument is about as liable as the stupid email that goes around saying that if everybody stopped buying gas for 1 day, the price of gas would go down. It's ridiculous and has no merit whatsoever.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Tina - I guess I don't buy there on the principle that I won't support someone who supports a puppy mill, not even for a $2 clicker. To each their own.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I disagree. The store needs the money from EVERY sale to pay the rent, the utilities, the wages, etc. 

If people who know about the issue and care about the issue would remove their dollars from the store, they would be hurting. 

Maybe yours would not go out of business like ours did, both of ours did. I traveled 50 minutes each way at that time to buy dog food because I was not going to buy it from a place that sells puppies. They went out of business. That is the truth. I like to think that my fuel was part of the reason they did. But even if it did NOT put them out of business. At least you would not have to think about how much your contribution to that store, and those that think like you, who would never buy a puppy from a pet store, but for convenience would buy other things there, well, you would not have to think how much your contribution is helping them stay open. 

But you choose to not think about it and continue on because it is convenient.

And other people who respect you and how you are with your dogs, see that you have no problem with being a customer there, and they too, might think, well, it is ok then. 

I tell you what, you can wave signs and pictures of puppy mills, and that is well and good, but when the dude next to you in training classes says something about the store, and you quickly say, "I never shop there, they sell puppies" -- THAT makes an impression. That kind of attitude grows. 

I know you are angry, we see this totally different. I think every dollar spent in a pet store makes that store survive. If the store is gassing the puppies that reach four months -- would you STILL shop there? 

I think the only way we can truly make a difference is through our wallets, and frankly, yes, I would make a 2-hour trip in order not to support puppy mills.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Just like the gas stations, don't buy anything but gas, because we hate the prices that are being charged for fueling up. It is hurting the proprieter to not buy anything but gas.

In my town, there are no stores that sell pups or kittens. There was one, and it went out of business because no-one supported them. The inventory they had was basically pups and clothing for those pups, I never saw any traffic in or out of that store. 
The other stores all support the local rescues and let them hold adoption events regularly. My town has several rescues, and it is amazing how well they seem to work together, and with the competitive stores. The focus is in the right place, for a change.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Why do I care about papers? Because I am afraid if I don't get around to registering Indy, my Breeder is going to take her back!!!!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Just like the gas stations, don't buy anything but gas, because we hate the prices that are being charged for fueling up. It is hurting the proprieter to not buy anything but gas.
> 
> In my town, there are no stores that sell pups or kittens. There was one, and it went out of business because no-one supported them. The inventory they had was basically pups and clothing for those pups, I never saw any traffic in or out of that store.
> The other stores all support the local rescues and let them hold adoption events regularly. My town has several rescues, and it is amazing how well they seem to work together, and with the competitive stores. The focus is in the right place, for a change.


Because gas is NOT the main source of revenue for gas stations. When gas prices went sky high in 2008, my local gas station simply stopped selling it until prices went down and stayed open for months simply on selling goods inside the store. You stop buying goods in the store, and the store WILL shut down, but it won't affect the price of gas. In fact, it leaves others to raise their prices due to lack of competition. That's how it works, which is why towns with 1 or 2 stations have much higher prices than those with one on every other corner.

Puppies are the main source of income for places like Petland. If people stopped buying the dogs, the store would inevitably have to shut down. If people stopped buying their higher end dog food, they would simply remove the expense of putting it on their shelves or find another product to substitute it with. And I can guarantee that it wasn't driving two hours for food that shut down the one near Selzer, it was the lack of puppy sales.

While it seems her area was able to shut down a Petland, she says herself they are still overrun with puppy mills. I wholeheartedly respect anyone's decision not to buy a paper clip from these people because they FEEL it supports puppy mills. But please don't villianize me because you believe my purchase or lack thereof can impact an industry that is based solely on a whole other source - puppy buyers that don't know any better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Tihannah said:


> Because gas is NOT the main source of revenue for gas stations. When gas prices went sky high in 2008, my local gas station simply stopped selling it until prices went down and stayed open for months simply on selling goods inside the store. You stop buying goods in the store, and the store WILL shut down, but it won't affect the price of gas. In fact, it leaves others to raise their prices due to lack of competition. That's how it works, which is why towns with 1 or 2 stations have much higher prices than those with one on every other corner.


Exactly, by not purchasing items in the store a gas station will not make it. But the price of gas won't change. The station isn't setting the price, so it is unfair to hate the gas station for the price of gas.

On the other hand....
Puppy selling stores do make their money off pups, and the accessories that goes with the sale of the pup. So yes, they do profit from the sale of puppies and the other sales. Mark up is huge on accessories, not so much on bags of food. 
I worked in a retail/exotic bird store which is essentially the same thing, and the birds were not the biggest income, it was everything else we could sell to the customer when they bought the bird and maintaining that bird for the life of the bird.
It all comes down to educating the public on where the pups are coming from, and slowly but surely it is getting across, but there are people who want a pup now, and petland fills that need.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry, ours was not a Petland, neither of them. They were mom and pop shops. Puppy mills are a problem. I do not know of any in my area. But they ship in puppies from puppy mills to pet stores.


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## Zenny (May 19, 2011)

selzer said:


> That's kool. We were able to shut the one at our mall -- 12 miles away from my home, down, because they sold puppies. We shut it down by refusing to buy anything from them. The store in Jefferson (4 miles from my house) had puppies, they did not last a season.
> 
> *I travel to Petsmart* or PetsSuppliesPlus _*about 50 minutes when I need something*_.


Just FYI, if you are that serious about where you shop, you may want to stop going to Petsmart also - they actually DO sell pets also. They do in Texas anyway - every Saturday and Sunday they have pets outside on the sidewalk to lure people in.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the petsmarts around here do not sell dogs.

They do however, have alot of adoptathons , rescues that come in with dogs. They also have cats that come from the Humane society here that they showcase. 

Yes, they do sell, birds, fish, mice, rats, those types of animals.

Petco & Pet SuppliesPlus, here, also does not sell dogs/cats they also hold adoptathons occasionally.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I haven't been in a pet store in quite a while that sells pet-most are doing the adoptions-I buy most of my stuff at local feed stores just because it is cheaper


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Just to expand the consciousness a little, many bird owners boycott Petsmart and Petco because of their corporate policies on bird sales. 

Budgies and cockatiels are nice "starter" pets. But many of the small to medium sized parrots that you can easily find for sale in any of the "big box" stores are not. And yet they are sold to anyone that wants to pay the price, despite that fact that many go to homes that are not prepared to handle them and end up in that downward spiral so many impulse buy puppies end up in. 

It is wonderful that Petsmart and Petco have the policies they do concerning the sale of dogs/puppies and cats/kittens. But there are many other animals that they have no problem selling to an uneducated buyer. And those animals often end up just as doomed as the puppies and kittens they don't sell would have been. So it is wonderful to tout the ethics of a store for not selling CERTAIN types of live animals, but be aware that those same stores sell other types of animals that are just as much at risk and are bought from large scale brokers and mill type producers.

So, where do you draw the line? Selzer, can I hound you for giving your business to a store that sells birds that have the potential to live 30-40 years, most of which will be spent bouncing from home to home because they are so loud or messy or they bite? Does the store's bird policy not count because you aren't a "bird" person, so you don't find their policy offensive? 
Sheilah
P.S. It may be just a regional thing, but neither the Petco nor the Petsmart here will allow a bird rescue to participate in adoptathons. The rescue would be in direct competition for their own bird sales, so they don't allow it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Sheilah for pointing that out. There isn't a petsmart/co close to me so I don't shop there but will definitely remember the birds next time I'm in there!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Zenny said:


> Just FYI, if you are that serious about where you shop, you may want to stop going to Petsmart also - they actually DO sell pets also. They do in Texas anyway - every Saturday and Sunday they have pets outside on the sidewalk to lure people in.


Actually (in Texas) the pets that you see in the front of the stores are from shelters and rescues. Petsmart allows them to use their facility for free during the weekend for adoption purposes.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I try as much as possible to be a values based buyer - values regarding pet animals. 

I do drive, once a month, 50 minutes to get my pet food all at once from a guy who is a small business owner. I buy it all at once for multiple pets - cats and dogs. I have a car - so I don't pay as much for gas, but I do have room for all the food, usually just in the trunk. 

If I were to become aware that he was selling pets from puppy mills, I would look elsewhere. Those are my values. There are also graphic videos and photos that you can watch that might make those values your values. Or if you meet these dogs from the mills - we have some around here - you might decide that there are other places that you could patronize that do not support the mills. http://www.google.com/search?q=pupp...sE4mz0AHF-czyDA&ved=0CCMQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=751

If I go somewhere that has GREAT sandwiches, but they are selling puppies, even though I am not buying the puppies, I am giving them extra funds to support this venture and I am also saying, with my purchase, I support the way you do business. Will they notice I am not getting my one sub a week? Probably not. But will I feel better? Yes. If everyone who just bought sandwiches listened to me and stopped buying them there, would they notice? Yes. If jessewessie did a protest and educated more people would they stop? They might. 

I am interested what action is being taken regarding the birds, and now that I know better, I will shop around Petsmart and Petco.

Just explaining my thought process and how the ripples of education have worked to make people aware of these things and that we can be part of the solution.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I draw the line at large scale foul condition puppy factories. I am not aware of the crisis in birds, I do not like birds, but if I was a member of the bird fancy, or the fish fancy, or the rodent fancy, or the rabbit fancy, then I would be up to date on the conditions the breeder animals are kept in to supply the public a constant supply of insta-pets. 

Let's see, last I knew there is a hole in the wall place in Ashtabula that sells anything -- I do not go there -- 12 miles away from home. 

Mentor -- about 50 miles/minutes away, has:

Petsmart -- they sell fish, birds, rodents, reptiles. keep cats for the shelter. And they let rescue groups come in and sell their puppies, kittens, cats, and dogs. 

PetCo, they have birds, fish, maybe reptiles, and house/sell cats for the shelter.

PetLand -- sell anything.

PetSuppliesPlus, they have birds, fish, rabbits, reptiles, and maybe rodents. They do not have dogs or cats. 

Also in Ashtabula, we have Tractor Supply Co. They sell chicks at certain times of the year. I buy buckets and bowls from them, and sometimes chews and bones, fence materials, hardware, and some kennel panels. They are not actively supporting the foul practices that feed puppies to pet stores. I cannot tell you how the chickens are kept that produce the now and then chicks they have. My guess is farmers bring them in, occasionally and they sell them. 

I get food from a company that ships it to my door and only does dog food. 

I get supplies from the internet, The Tack Room (our business), WalMart, KMart, TSC, and if necessary, I will go to PetSuppliesPlus, or PetsMart. The one because they sell Zukes, the other because they sell my pooper scoopers.

ETA: As I said, I am not aware of any crisis in birds or other animals. I do not have to buy my pooper scoopers at PetsMart. I do not have to use their grooming facility, though to be honest, it IS convenient -- sometimes I cannot get my mobile groomer in time. But If I feel they are treating birds or even rodents cruelly or causing the breeding animals to be kept cruelly, I will not shop there.

ETA2: I cannot stop shopping somewhere because owners are uninformed or careless or heartless. The best breeders sometimes end up giving a pup to a rummy. It happens. I draw the line at cruelty committed by the stores (ie, the girl being forced to kill the rabbits at PetCo) or cruelty that the breeding animals feeding the store are living through.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, as you said Selzer, ignorance is bliss. For those wanting more information on the topic:

Why do people buy their dog/cat supplies from Petco and Petsmart when they get their animals from mills? | PetHot.com

You know what else is cruelty? Sending unweaned baby parrots to a store where they are in the care of employees that don't know what they are doing and end up filing the lungs with food and not the crop. That is a horrible way to die, and entirely preventable. Or how about an employee who doesn't know to check the temperature on the food and ends up burning the crop? The resulting infection is pretty much always fatal (especially when your boss's protection of the financial bottom line prohibits seeking vet care). Or how about selling that unweaned baby to an uneducated, unaware buyer who ends up starving the bird to death? And lets not even get into the conditions that many breeding pairs are kept in before the babies are pulled and sold to the brokers. 

Petsmart and Petco have a horrible reputation within the bird and reptile world. It shouldn't really matter if someone is "into" a particular fancy or not. Selzer, didn't you yourself say that:

"We, the dog savvy people. Rescuers, trainers, pet owners, breeders -- we could make a difference and not buy ANYTHING from a store that sells puppies. If you do not trust yourself, never enter. Don't just refuse to buy puppies, refuse to buy anything. Send a message with your dollars -- that actually DOES work".

My question for you is, shouldn't the message we send pertain to stores where ANY animal that is treated cruelly, or ignorantly (in a willful way), while for sale? Or while being massed produced to supply that store? I believe that parrots are every bit as sentient as dogs, so any argument that pertains to the ethical treatment of puppies should also apply to parrots.

So your trips to Petsmart and Petco are every bit as offensive to some as Tina's trips into Petland for dog food are to you. It is all a matter of perspective. And knowledge. So it is up to all of us to educate ourselves on the policies of the stores that we frequent. All the policies, not just the ones that interest us, or the ones that make us feel better.

If your convenience grooming is okay, her convenience food trips should also be okay. Selzer, I am only singling you out because you have provided the most point-by-point commentary and not because I think you are any more wrong than anyone else (including me). And I am not taking sides. I don't shop in a store that sells live animals, so I get the argument about choosing who we support with our dollars. But I also know that the issue is greater than just puppies and kittens and that a soap box can be a pretty shaky way to stand sometimes.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Until today, Shiela, until your posts, I have never once heard of cruelty done to birds in pet stores. The bird fancy is not as organized about getting the message out about it. 

I do not shop, and have said over and again at PetCo because I have heard of some of their policies on how they treat animals that they sell. 

As for PetSuppliesPlus -- is their bird and reptile policy better than PetsMart? 

I think PetsMart does do some stuff for dogs and cats, for the shelters and rescues. But they do sell birds, rodents, reptiles and fish.

I have a mobile groomer who comes to my house though, so I really do not NEED PetsMart.

I buy so little at pet stores anymore, with the internet, that it really is not that big of a deal to NOT buy from a crappy store with crappy policies. At some point you do have to draw the line though. I mean, if they sell dog food with chicken in it that is not free-range chicken, they are supporting the abusive chicken industry. Animals are animals and chickens are animals.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Selzer, I think that is because you don't know anything about it and because people don't care about parrots as much as about dogs. 

It's not as newsworthy as dogs. Parrots don't conduct police, military, sar work but dogs do. Dogs are always in the news. They are always present, parrots are not and that is why you don't hear about it but it's ignorant to believe that nobody is cruel towards them. 

It doesn't matter what kind of pet breed it is. As long as it's a business and there can be money earned with there will be cruelty.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> As for PetSuppliesPlus -- is their bird and reptile policy better than PetsMart?


I have no experience with or knowledge of that chain of stores, but I did notice that they have a pretty extensive list of stores spread out over several states. If they are buying for that many stores (even assuming that only half their stores sell parrots), then they are buying through a broker. And only the large scale, mass producing breeders sell through a broker. So, no, they wouldn't be any better than Petsmart or Petco. They're purchasing from the same pool.

Look at it this way. Being a breeding pair of parrots in 98% of all large scale, mass producing breeding facilities would be like a human couple being isolated in a bare room, and left to do nothing but eat and make babies. Google "bird mill".

Just as with dogs, reputable bird breeders don't sell to brokers or pet stores.
Sheilah


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sit/stay : Are all Petco / Petsmart employees ignorant to the care of birds? Maybe some? Maybe it's not a employment requirement?

There is a Petco by my home. I went there searching for information on a baby dove that was found at the warehouse where I work. The woman there was very helpful and even gave me her cell number in case I had problems with the bird after hours. 

It was my first (and last) experiance with hand feeding a bird. The bird actually lived and end of story flew off into the sunset. Actually it stuck around feeding from our feeders.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Lilie said:


> Sit/stay : Are all Petco / Petsmart employees ignorant to the care of birds? Maybe some? Maybe it's not a employment requirement?


No, not all. But most are unqualified. Just as most (but not all) of their " dog trainers" are unqualified. 

I am glad that the dove in your story survived. But I don't see the story as indicative of the overall knowledge base of Petco employees in general.
Sheilah


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I buy dog supplies at Petco and at my shelter's store, Target, Walmart, Costco. Why? Because they are near me. I go whats convient for me and those places I listed are convient for me and have affordable prices. I actually get a discount at my shelter's store for being a volunteer, my parents get our dog food at Costco, anything else we find at either Costco or my shelter, Target, Wal Mart and recently a Pet supplies store(they sell no animals or hold adoptions) recently opened. The last thing I got at Petco was a bag of Liver dog treats that Molly & Tanner love. Why don't I shop at BARKWORKS? They are mostly there to sell puppies and kittens, they have dog supplies, but they are expensive, the place smells bad, and they get their animals from puppy mills, the don't even take care of the animals in the place. But usually if I needed dog supplies I either go to my shelter's store, Target, Wal-Mart, or Costco hecause they are more in my price range.

Sorry, but I like dogs better than birds. Will I ever get a bird probably not, and if I did I wouldn't go to Petco or Petsmart. I can see where Tinnah is coming from when she was explaining her situation.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

sit said:


> No, not all. But most are unqualified. Just as most (but not all) of their " dog trainers" are unqualified.
> 
> I am glad that the dove in your story survived. But I don't see the story as indicative of the overall knowledge base of Petco employees in general.
> Sheilah


You are right. I was just curious. A poor assumption at best on my part. I would not have gone into Petco asking for medical advice for my dog. But didn't hesitate to ask advice regarding the bird. Luckily, it turned out alright.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PetsMart is a company like WalMart and TSC. I believe they are a huge corporation, and being employed by them, you can transfer between stores, and have generally the same policies and the same overall rules. 

I think that at least some Pet Supplies Plus stores are privately owned and pay for a franchise. They hire their own people, have their own policies, and pay for the name in money and probably in some concessions. 

I think this is why you have some stores that sell small animals and others that do not. 

I could be all wet on that, but I heard a couple of years ago that a certain number of the stores are privately owned.


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