# Breeder



## Upham (Jul 10, 2011)

Home - Wildwood German Shepherds

This a good breeder? Just wondering.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

after viewing their website, it doesn't tell me much, other than they have nice looking dogs, who are on the large/heavier side, they are not show dogs (not a bad thing just stating),,are not for breeding (fine by me), I would have liked to see some evidence of hip and elbow certification..

Would I buy from them? most likely not, they just aren't my cup of tea Just my opinion


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> after viewing their website, it doesn't tell me much, other than they have nice looking dogs, who are on the large/heavier side, they are not show dogs (not a bad thing just stating),,are not for breeding (fine by me), I would have liked to see some evidence of hip and elbow certification..
> 
> Would I buy from them? most likely not, they just aren't my cup of tea Just my opinion


Exactly. I don't see any health certs at all. One of their males is 120 lbs????????? Not what I would want at all, but they MIGHT produce nice "pets". I would ask questions and do research on them before you really consider them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Personally, when I go to a breeder's website and their descriptions are mostly about color and size, it's a big turn-off. I want to see bloodlines, pedigrees, hip/elbow certifications, and accomplishments. Not "he's big and pretty and doesn't bite kids." Those are fine things I guess, but not enough to qualify a dog for breeding, let alone enough to found a kennel on.


This kennel's dogs might have great pedigrees, health certifications, and accomplishments out the wazoo. But why not post them on the website, if you're going to have a website?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alpenrosa is our 2 year old black , tan and red girl who weighs around 85 pounds. She is big and beautiful. She has a gorgeous confirmation. She has the vet approved straight back and nice hips. She has received many compliments on her graceful confirmation. All our dogs have these normal traits. When put into the show stance she has just the right slope you would look for but not the unnatural curvature of the spine that you see in so many shepherds. Her lineage in German like all our other dogs. She is AKC registered. 

I just love that she is confirmed a couple of times and has been approved by a vet for her straight back and nice hips. So the Pastor and the Vet like her, neither of which have any listed credentials as knowing how to evaluate a German Shepherd. 

Now I have to go back on there and see if there is any relationship to Hope vom Wildwood, who was Dubya's dam.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are going to be really, really busy with puppies coming August 23, August 25, and September 5th. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Bitches often bring each other into heat. Better her than me. I think I would be tearing my hair out. 

Still looking for pedigrees.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Uhmm, yuk. All the dogs are fat, and why are there a zillion pics of fat dogs sitting in the snow. No health certs, no pedigrees = no clue.


Love, Guaranteed is their motto. That's very funny. I want to get one and then ask for my money back because the dog only likes me a whole bunch LOL.

Annette


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The website does not work for me as it does not give me the information I would want to see, pedigrees, health certifications, and accomplishments. 

If you like the looks of the dogs, look through the thread on responsible breeding and make yourself a list of specific questions. 

Understand that since these dogs are half the going price for show lines, and less than the going price for working lines, it is doubtful she will have all of the i's dotted and t's crossed. 

Decide what is most important in your opinion, and if they fall short on those things when you contact and ask, pass on them.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

From one of their clients:"Thank you for the best puppy in the world.
I am so very happy with Zeus, I picked him up at 6 weeks, and have enjoyed every minute I have had with him..."

Upham, I don't know much about certifications, etc, but I do know that letting a baby go at 6 wks is never a good idea. In my opinion, any breeder who would sell a puppy this young is not a good breeder. JMO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is hard to know where the line is crossed into breeder bashing, when we look at a website of a breeder. I am kind of nervous about where this post will go from here. 

I think the OP is interested in the breeder, and as a message board we should be able to flag those things that make us shake uncontrollably, but the website includes their kennel name, so we have that line. 

I am going to notify and ask if a mod can come on and be clear about what kinds of things we can say and what kinds of things would violate board rules.


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## xamtseeb (Aug 30, 2010)

selzer said:


> It is hard to know where the line is crossed into breeder bashing, when we look at a website of a breeder. I am kind of nervous about where this post will go from here.
> 
> I think the OP is interested in the breeder, and as a message board we should be able to flag those things that make us shake uncontrollably, but the website includes their kennel name, so we have that line.
> 
> I am going to notify and ask if a mod can come on and be clear about what kinds of things we can say and what kinds of things would violate board rules.


Agreed. It was becoming more of a bashing.

Anyways, I have 2 dogs who have great pedigree. My other dog has a history of just big dogs. Honestly, my dog that doesn't have grandparents or even parents who've won awards is so much better than the other 2.

Pedigree/awards do not show how great a dog can be.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

xamtseeb said:


> Agreed. It was becoming more of a bashing.
> 
> Anyways, I have 2 dogs who have great pedigree. My other dog has a history of just big dogs. Honestly, my dog that doesn't have grandparents or even parents who've won awards is so much better than the other 2.
> 
> Pedigree/awards do not show how great a dog can be.


While pedigree and awards do not show how great a dog can be, they can give you a good indication of what the dog's potential might be. 

I think that there are many reasons to support breeders who are paying attention to details. Without pedigrees, we have no idea if they are breeding brother to sister, father to daughter, how many times a specific dog is behind the pup. Without pedigrees, we do not know if they have lines that we have chosen for whatever reason to stay away from. 

Awards -- accomplishments is the word I used. Anyone can hang out a shingle, Sue Selzer, Dog Trainer. I can do it tomorrow. Without any accomplishments though who should invest their time and money, and their dog's future in my techniques? If the dogs are awesome, why not get them out and show them or trial them, at least in something? You can say, they are good for pet, service, therapy, performing on a bicycle on a tight-rope, but without any actual accomplishments listed? If there were accomplishments, why not list them?

A website is the window to the world. Details, like getting important dog terminology correct, and including the information that people should see, matters.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

OP...the most important question is to ask your self...."What am *I* looking for in a GSD puppy?" "What is most important to *you*...not everyone else."
*Something sparked your interest in this particular breeder...ask yourself what it was?*
Make yourself a list of "criteria" for your GSD puppy....then research breeders that breed to fit your criteria.
JMO


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think it was veering into bashing because there is just that much good info on the website.

OP, I'm sure these people have good intentions, are passionate, and are very nice. However, that does not make them good GSD breeders. Their dogs all look like they make great pets, but not great breeding dogs.

There is a lot to explore in the "Choosing a Breeder" section. Including a great sticky about what to look for in a responsible breeder. I highly recommend that you look through that sticky to get some ideas.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

No pedigree information, no mention of OFA... and some of their dogs are overweight. The website appears very unprofessional. I'm not impressed. I would be asking for pedigrees and OFA numbers on these dogs. If they can't provide OFA numbers, or they say "his x-rays looked good but we didn't send them in", then I wouldn't give them a second look.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

selzer said:


> It is hard to know where the line is crossed into breeder bashing, when we look at a website of a breeder. I am kind of nervous about where this post will go from here. .


I don't consider answering a specific request with an honest opinion bashing. To me bashing is singling out a specific breeder for the purpose of bashing. Not sharing ones opinion which is what the OP asked for. If my comment constitutes bashing, I apologize. It certainly never was my intent to do so. Perhaps I should have phrased it a bit differently? English is not my first language so perhaps I was too direct?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

me personally, I don't see any bashing in any of the replies, just opinions ..


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

In general, I believe any breeder who sells a puppy before 8 wks should be considered unethical and should be shunned by the community. By not calling them out, you implicitly approve of their practices. We all say we don't like unethical breeders and BYB, but when someone brings things to light, like selling a puppy at 6wks, we start worrying about bashing. Hey, anyone who sells and breeds unethically should be bashed (if that is the word you want to use) out of business. I happen to believe it is not bashing, but bringing to light bad/unethical practices and helping people not support such breeders. Just my 2 cents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, we just cannot do that, because there are some people on this message board that think that no dog should be bred who does not have certain titles, and possibly others that think no dog should be bred without a championship, and some who think that while there are dogs somewhere in a shelter nobody should breed. So we choose not to bash breeders specifically. But we are free to open a thread that specifically addresses when a pup should leave the litter and why. And other threads that speak to what the characteristics of good breeders are. 

I was not worried about other people's posts so much as my own. I am awaiting the crew who will say you cannot judge a breeder by their website. Or for someone to e-mail the breeder and tell them we are talking about them here (which has happened not too long ago.)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

eddie1976E said:


> In general, I believe any breeder who sells a puppy before 8 wks should be considered unethical and should be shunned by the community. By not calling them out, you implicitly approve of their practices. We all say we don't like unethical breeders and BYB, but when someone brings things to light, like selling a puppy at 6wks, we start worrying about bashing. Hey, anyone who sells and breeds unethically should be bashed (if that is the word you want to use) out of business. I happen to believe it is not bashing, but bringing to light bad/unethical practices and helping people not support such breeders. Just my 2 cents.


How you comment on anything you see on a website can make all the difference. Say I go to a website and they sell the puppies at 4 weeks old. Instead of instantly reacting to bash the breeder............. (not allowed)...........

I can instead say I personally prefer breeders who follow the law in the state that says puppies need to be 7 weeks old. I can also put in some links and other websites that recommend 7 or 8 weeks and their reasons. 

This way I can put MY opinion and why. Instead of the 'bashing' on the breeder. Which closes the thread and no learning passed on.

Same with if a dog is titled or not. I don't have to 'bash' any breeder going on and on with horribleness on no titles. Instead I can say why I like some titles and WHY. And others can calmly state why they don't care about titles. All opinions (not bashing) that can be backed up by calm communication so we can all learn and make up our minds like adults. :wub:

Most of us like a different flavor of GSD for different reasons. I love sables. Many do not. That mean I'm 'right' and sable haters are 'wrong'? No. Just my opinion and people liking the other colors like the others AND THAT'S FINE TOO! ( but sables are the best  )


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> I am awaiting the crew who will say you cannot judge a breeder by their website.


Well you really can't. Not all breeders bother to post pedigrees or OFA's on their sites. Some don't put the dogs registered names. Websites are another form of marketing. Some breeders are good at marketing, some aren't. 

Heck, some breeders don't even have websites but that doesn't make them bad breeders does it?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i'm gonna go with no. The dogs are fat. Didnt see ANY health testing. they seem focused on weight and color more than actually producing good dogs. I'm sure they're great for simple pets but personally i prefer a dog that is a good pet but i can also do something with if i choose to.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I can instead say I personally prefer breeders who follow the law in the state that says puppies need to be 7 weeks old. I can also put in some links and other websites that recommend 7 or 8 weeks and their reasons. best  )


That makes a lot of sense (making it a learning and positive thing instead of judgmental thing). My apologies for my earlier reply calling the breeder bad. Again, I should have phrased it differently. Thank you for sharing your balanced perspective.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Everyone has their own agenda. I for one prefer to get my dogs at 7 weeks. I guess that means my breeders should be banned and shunned? Well the good news is, I can pick up my dog at 7 weeks and someone else is free to pick up their dog at 10 weeks.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

KZoppa said:


> i'm gonna go with no. The dogs are fat. Didnt see ANY health testing. they seem focused on weight and color more than actually producing good dogs. I'm sure they're great for simple pets but personally i prefer a dog that is a good pet but i can also do something with if i choose to.


GREAT EXAMPLE to show how we should post! Thanks KZoppa for putting that up so I can use it as an example of how just taking a second to think, we can say the same information in a better way! Like the following:

I personally prefer dogs from breeders who work their dogs and keep them fit and lean so you can better see their body structure and analyze their health and fitness. Since I do agility with my dogs I like to find a breeder that focuses on more than just size and color but has real breeding goals they are working towards and I can see it on their site and with their dogs.

Examples of breeders I perfer can be seen on the following sites:

(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)

Eichenluft German Shepherds

If your point is to help someone find a great puppy/dog. You don't have to bash anyone. Instead you can teach them what to look for and why, based on your background and experience.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My view about websites that give minimal information (like no registered names, no health testing, no pedigrees, no titles, no description about the dogs strengths and weaknesses and were the aims of the breeding program are, only boasting about the colours, the cuteness, and the WEIGHT of the dogs, for example), is not so much that the breeder just isn't a savvy web/internet person, but more that the breeder is aiming their marketing to the vast percentage of people who don't know what to look for when trying to find a breeder. They are marketing their dogs, but they are marketing them to the uneducated buyers who do not understand the difference between a producer of cute puppies, and a knowledgeable breeder of German Shepherds who aim at preserving the health and temperament of the GSD in a responsible way.

I would choose to not be an uneducated buyer and look for breeders that market to people that have done their homework and research, and know what information they want to see and have it present on their web site, or easily and happily can share it on request.

And for the record, I did not look at the website linked, I'm talking in general terms, and sharing my thoughts.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree with Krystal, no sign of ANY health testing, and seemed too focused on color and size. Not someone I would choose to go to.

If the OP does come back, it would be nice if they post what they want in a dog, plans for the dog etc. It may help with pointing them in the right direction.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> GREAT EXAMPLE to show how we should post! Thanks KZoppa for putting that up so I can use it as an example of how just taking a second to think, we can say the same information in a better way! Like the following:
> 
> I personally prefer dogs from breeders who work their dogs and keep them fit and lean so you can better see their body structure and analyze their health and fitness. Since I do agility with my dogs I like to find a breeder that focuses on more than just size and color but has real breeding goals they are working towards and I can see it on their site and with their dogs.
> 
> ...


 

lol glad i could help. But i do agree my post was a bit vague. 

I also agree with Jessica in the hope the OP comes back and gives us all more info on what they're looking for so we can better advise and steer them towards a breeder that may work for them.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies, just curious...Why do you prefer 7 wks? I've often heard 8 wks as the minimum for placement, but I've seen well regarded breeders who place at 7 or 7.5 wks rather than 8. Consequently, it's something I've long wondered about.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Lies, just curious...Why do you prefer 7 wks? I've often heard 8 wks as the minimum for placement, but I've seen well regarded breeders who place at 7 or 7.5 wks rather than 8. Consequently, it's something I've long wondered about.


Because I've always had to drive a ways to get my dogs and honestly I don't feel it's necessary to wait an arbitrary exact 8 weeks. I like to get them on a weekend, then I have a few days. I don't take time off work because I *have* to work and any dog living in my home needs to come to terms with that, but my last three puppies I've got in the fall or early winter so I have been able to just take them to work with me for 1-2 months so they can be pottied every few hours and come out to pay and socialize. We all know how much work it is to properly crate train and house train a puppy. I can't imagine a breeder doing as good a job as I do with 6-12 puppies at once. I'd rather do that training myself. There are certain aspects of my lifestyle I want a new dog to become accustomed to sooner rather than later. For example, many people place high priority on socialization with other dogs and this is not a priority for me. As long as MY pack gets along and my dogs mind me when we are out, I couldn't care less what they think of other dogs. Neither Nikon or Pan were every mouthy as puppies and it was not something I even had to correct them for, so I also do not buy into the claim that they must stay with their litter for 10-12 weeks in order to learn not to bite everyone. Honestly I think the genetics of the dog are the key. If the dog has a solid temperament, then he's going to be a bomb-proof pup whether you take him home at 7 weeks or 14+. I've just never met anyone that's had a problem with their dog _because_ they took it home at 7 weeks instead of waiting a few more days. I just think it's silly to obsess over such an arbitrary number. When I got Nikon he was actually three days shy of 8 weeks and I picked him up on a Sunday morning. Honestly what difference would it have made to get him on Wednesday? To me 6 weeks seems a little young but I have known many people with very nice, successful dogs that had no problems getting a puppy at that age. I think when you are dealing with breeders that don't churn out litter after litter and often traveling several time zones or even importing, a week or so should not be a deal-breaker if it truly is the right dog.

A few days after I got Nikon, we all went down to Kentucky for the Sieger show and the breeder still had a few of the puppies she was keeping or hadn't delivered to their owners yet so I put Nikon back in their x-pen. At that time they were 8 weeks old. This had been a large litter and none of the puppies were real softies, they all wanted the best toy or the first pick of the meal. Some working line breeders actually look for this type of competitiveness in very young puppies. At any rate, a few times I had to take Nikon out because even at 8 weeks it was clear the pups had learned all they needed to learn from each other and now were just being bossy. He was wrestling with his brother and got bit a little too hard and had a scar on his ear for a long time.

Some states have laws about the age of puppies but if you actually look into this, these laws are to protect the state's interest as far as taxes and regulations on commerce, they were not put in place to protect the well being of the puppy.

People just need to use their brains. If the puppy would benefit from another week with the litter then leave him be. If the new owner has some circumstance where they can't get their dog for 10, 12, 14 weeks, no problem. If not, then who cares if it is Friday at 7.5 weeks or Wednesday at 8 weeks? My friend is on her way to O'Hare right now to pick up her puppy from Belgium and he's 7 weeks but again, there are so many other factors that come into play. First of all the breeder drives the puppy to a different country in order to ship it out so that's not exactly something he can do at any moment. The airlines will not ship live animals in certain weather conditions/temperatures (for good reason). Because it is summer we don't really get to pick the *exact* day to import the dog. The flight already had to be changed from Detroit to O'Hare b/c the Detroit flight was too late in the day and too hot.

Anyway, it's not really that I prefer 7 weeks over 8 weeks, that was probably not the right way to say it, but I just don't care if it's 7 or 8 weeks and I absolutely do not go around shunning breeders for sending puppies to great homes at 7 weeks. That I find ridiculous.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with Lies, a few days early will not make a difference. Many people think the best time to pick up a pup is seven weeks. I say eight weeks, but if someone wants to pick up the pup the previous weekend, well, I figure it is better for the puppy to have the weekend to get used to their people, then it is for them to be 56 days old. 

What gets me is breeders who are giving up puppies at 4 and 5 weeks.


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## Upham (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm not looking for a dog now. I'm just doing research for when it's time. I cancelled from this breeder and was wondering if it was a right choice.


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## Upham (Jul 10, 2011)

Btw I'm just looking for opinions. I suppose this breeder is sutible for what others may be looking for. But I prefer I pup to be a little older when they leave and a little more attention put into temperaments.

For example what if a breeder told you all the pups were the same personality wise?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Upham said:


> For example what if a breeder told you all the pups were the same personality wise?


I would question whether that breeder knows what they're talking about, or how much time they've actually spent with the pups. In every litter, there is a range of personalities and temperaments. Some litters are more consistent than others, but I've never heard anyone say all their pups were the same personality-wise.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had a litter of ten that were pretty consistent and all could have been said to be middle of the road, though of course, Joy is the best, and each of the others had their own differences. They played out much like their temperament test. Two were a little more independent. Most were pretty even. 

The repeat of this litter was much more varied, even though there were only seven.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Just wondering isn't illegal to sell a pup younger than 8 weeks in most states?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know that in California puppies have to be at least 8 weeks old to go to a new home.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Here is the link to a webpage that lists the legal ages to sell a puppy. 
Age to Sell Puppy Table

I don't mind if a puppy leaves a few couple of days earlier than 8 weeks old, but in my opinion, there is a lot of socialization skills that the puppies are learning up until 8 weeks of age from their mother, littermates, or other adult guardian dogs. Animal Shelters and their respective foster homes are excluded, at least in this state from the 8 week old laws.

We recently had a training client return their 9 month old replacement pup to the breeder because this pup had terrible aggression issues. We began working with this pup in private sessions at 4 months old. The worst part was that the dog would be pretty good, the owners would think everything was going ok and out of the blue...the dog would go off on someone or another dog. Bottom line was the couple was looking at a serious liability issue. Come to find out, the puppy was released by the breeder at 6 weeks of age. I'm not saying that's the full reason this pup is the way it is, but I do believe that it played a part in it. I do have to say that I was glad that the couple realized the situation wasn't getting better with lots of training, and that the breeder agreed to take the pup back.

I didn't look at the OP's reference to the breeder's website. But one thing to remember is, that breeders can say things on their website and use it as an effort to market their puppies to the unsuspecting customer that has very limited knowledge of the breed. So one must educate themselves as much as possible before committing to a pup and breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Just wondering isn't illegal to sell a pup younger than 8 weeks in most states?


It depends on the classification of the person selling the puppy. Even in states where it is "illegal", most hobby breeders don't qualify. Also, these laws are in place to regulated taxes and commerce, they were not designed to protect the well being of the animal despite what we like to think.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is how the Ohio law reads:

"(A) No person shall sell, offer to sell, or expose for sale, for the purpose of resale or receive for delivery within this state, or ship from any point within this state to any point outside this state, for sale to the general public at retail, any dog under the age of eight weeks."

This looks to be only for dogs who will be resold, or accept delivery for sale to the public at retail. Which sounds like pet stores. Individual breeders are selling to the general public. 

I go by eight weeks, but if someone has a reason they want the dog sooner by a few days, or it is someone I know and trust with a history, I can give a few days. 

Here is a table by state, but their take on the age is not necessarily sound for Ohio anyway. 
Age to Sell Puppy Table


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Upham said:


> I'm not looking for a dog now. I'm just doing research for when it's time. I cancelled from this breeder and was wondering if it was a right choice.


I don't think there is any reason to still be confused........


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## Upham (Jul 10, 2011)

Lol that's true


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## jaw5pj (Dec 26, 2012)

*We got a dog from Wildwood German Shepherds*

*** This type of post is not allowed on the board. For more information from the poster, please send a PM. Thank you. ADMIN**


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