# Looking at 2 litters - thoughts on pedigrees



## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

I am looking at 2 potential litters between:

Atze vom Weggefährten x Arizona vom Schloss Solitude

Acer the Boom vom Kraftwerk x Kontra vom Harzofen
I could not find Acer in PedigreeDatabase but his brother from same litter is there: Maximus Ari vom Kraftwerk

Any advice is welcomed, it will be a for a family with of older 3 children and a small dog if that matters. I am looking for dog that can be used as service dog. Breeder says that he is planning a breeding between these dogs. I am wanting a black sable.

Thank you


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

I'll let other more knowledgeable people comment on the potential offspring of these breedings, but to make things easier:

First litter:
Litter from Atze vom Weggefährten and Arizona Vom Schloss Solitude

Second is tougher to link, because neither dog is on Pedigree Database. So individual links:
Sire (well, sire's brother): Maximus Ari vom Kraftwerk
Dam: https://en.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2552314/Kontra-vom-Harzofen 

Hope that helps.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

If i needed a service dog, I'd steer clear of dogs with natural aggression and higher drives


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know I know -- black sable sure is a pretty dog --- BUT --
that , like the thread where the person has limited their search to ASL's partly
because of colour --- THIS is nowhere near a priority when you are looking for 
a service dog.

honestly, with respect to the breeder, I would not choose a pup from either litter
for the purposes that you have stated.

not one with double Asko --

these are good sport dog lines -- fun for competition

a GSD SHOULD have natural aggression -- it is part of the breed and needs to be
fuly understood and developed wisely into a line . Then you have more predictability .

the sport / podium dog , as a service dog , needs too much "on the ball" management 
and those needing a service dog are not always in that frame of mind -- and the dog has to
negotiate complex social and environmental challenges safely and appropriately - without
micro management or need for vigilance .

there ARE good all-round , sound in body and sound in strong nerve , clear minded , guidable,
and sociable , even good looking and even black sable dogs.

you need to find the BREEDER not the line.

lif you look at pedigrees look for balance within the heritage herding lines.
l


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

OP, where are you located? 


Maybe someone knows a breeder in your area that might be able to give you the best of both worlds or at least a shot at a black sable service dog.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

The first litter has lines similar to my current schuthund dog. My female has a sire who is linebred on Asko but there is also a lot of stadtfeld dogs mixed w high drive dogs like django/ufo. She has endless drive, corrections bounce right off her and has very high fight drive. I doubt that is what you are looking for in terms of a service dog. Her one litter I placed into experienced working dog homes with most going to police for work or pets. I kept one for schutzhund and 2 males are training as dual purpose patrol/apprehension. The second litter I can't comment on as less familiiarity with the lines.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Yes, location. And what type of service dog? What task?


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## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

Good morning, thank you for the replies and input. I am currently located in Oregon, but moving soon to the east coast. My brother is getting a dog from this breeder and after so many years without a GSD the fire was lit again. 
In regards to "service dog" I am more interested really in only the public access/ BH capability not really a real service dog or would claim to be a service dog. I would like a dog that I can take everywhere that dogs are allowed. We have so many pet friendly establishments that I would love to take advantage of them. My last GSD was a great pet, but in public he was anxious. He was well socialized too, we took him everywhere as a pup but I could not trust him not to snip at ppl or other dogs, he would even do this quietly without barking or growling. He was controllable with me, he listened, and by the time he turned 7/8 he was more calm in public but if my wife had him, he was in more control. He was an American line and during training, I fell in love with Sables, especially black sables. I see a lot of these dogs used as service dogs when I go to the VA and I am very impressed (envious) of how they are in public and that is what I want. I am just not looking for personal protection or an overly aggressive GSD. 

Thank you all again


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Schraderhaus is in Roy, WA - not sure how far that is from you now. I don't know much about them, but they have some good reviews here on the forums. She seems to know her dogs and you may get a good shot at a darker sable through her.


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## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

They look like some really serious dogs, probably too much for me to be honest. Pure east german DDR. But very beautiful.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The first litter, NO. Second litter, maybe, though it would depend on how the genes combine and just how much knowledge the breeder has of the dogs and then picking puppies. 



I, personally, would keep looking.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sealdoc said:


> Good morning, thank you for the replies and input. I am currently located in Oregon, but moving soon to the east coast. My brother is getting a dog from this breeder and after so many years without a GSD the fire was lit again.
> In regards to "service dog" I am more interested really in only the public access/ BH capability not really a real service dog or would claim to be a service dog. I would like a dog that I can take everywhere that dogs are allowed. We have so many pet friendly establishments that I would love to take advantage of them. My last GSD was a great pet, but in public he was anxious. He was well socialized too, we took him everywhere as a pup but I could not trust him not to snip at ppl or other dogs, he would even do this quietly without barking or growling. He was controllable with me, he listened, and by the time he turned 7/8 he was more calm in public but if my wife had him, he was in more control. He was an American line and during training, I fell in love with Sables, especially black sables. I see a lot of these dogs used as service dogs when I go to the VA and I am very impressed (envious) of how they are in public and that is what I want. I am just not looking for personal protection or an overly aggressive GSD.
> 
> Thank you all again


I don't understand what this means. A disabled person has the right of public access with their trained service dog. If you are not disabled, then you don't qualify for a service dog. If you are disabled and the dog is trained and suitable, then you have a right to access with your SD anywhere the public is allowed.


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## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't understand what this means. A disabled person has the right of public access with their trained service dog. If you are not disabled, then you don't qualify for a service dog. If you are disabled and the dog is trained and suitable, then you have a right to access with your SD anywhere the public is allowed.





> In regards to "service dog" I am more interested really in only the public access/ BH capability not really a real service dog or would claim to be a service dog. I would like a dog that I can take everywhere that dogs are allowed.



The post you quoted actually explained it but I will reiterate - I am not disabled, I am just looking for a dog that would be suitable/capable of performing in the same capacity as service dogs in public. To save time I did not go into a full explanation in my OP, but in my reply post I explained that I am not looking for an actual service dog prospect nor would I claiming that it would be a service dog. As I had mentioned in that same post, when I go to my VA clinics/hospital I see a lot of sable GSD's service dogs that are so well trained and behaved. What I am wanting is a dog that can be trained to act in such a manner in places that allow pets, which we have a lot of in my area.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Sealdoc said:


> As I had mentioned in that same post, when I go to my VA clinics/hospital I see a lot of sable GSD's service dogs that are so well trained and behaved.


Perhaps they could share who their breeders are?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A lot of what you are seeing is not training but breeding.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you are moving to the East coast - then wait until you are moved or get a puppy here.

You have been been given some good advice about these lines.

All breedings have elements of risk in the pedigree....it is a roll of the dice whether certain traits appear. Even from 10 generations back, genetic traits can show up. I KNOW this...I have had it happen! Dwarfs all trace to 3 dogs - they are at least 8-12 generations back now...yet they still pop up. I had 2 in a litter from a Yoshey son and a Pike daughter...both sires WIDELY, HEAVILY used and hard to avoid. But 2 of those 3 dogs were way back and I hit the lottery - in reverse!

A few people mentioned Asko.....and if his temperament came through, you would need time, experience and patience and the dog would NOT have the temperament you are looking for....but it is a RISK - not a given....personally, even though I own a titled V rated koered female with Asko, I will never use a dog with Asko again.....l had ONE pup in 2 litters (18 pups total) who showed the Asko qualities....luckily he is with a knowledgeable, experienced owner and is coming through it....if he had been in a normal pet home, I would have had him back....

The DDR lines are NOT known for propensity to be biddable....also I know this from experience! Too many people buy pups based on color or popularity and that popularity here is often NOT based on experience and knowledge....

I get alot of black/very dark sables - I place pups purely on the character - not to please someone's desire for a color.

Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sealdoc said:


> The post you quoted actually explained it but I will reiterate - I am not disabled, I am just looking for a dog that would be suitable/capable of performing in the same capacity as service dogs in public. To save time I did not go into a full explanation in my OP, but in my reply post I explained that I am not looking for an actual service dog prospect nor would I claiming that it would be a service dog. As I had mentioned in that same post, when I go to my VA clinics/hospital I see a lot of sable GSD's service dogs that are so well trained and behaved. What I am wanting is a dog that can be trained to act in such a manner in places that allow pets, which we have a lot of in my area.



Since you're not looking for an _actual_ service dog, I wouldn't even mention that when approaching potential breeders. Comments like this are misleading:



> I am looking for dog that can be used as service dog.



Instead, I'd focus on the specific qualities you're looking for, such as non-reactive, social or neutral to other dogs and people, solid nerves, higher thresholds, a dog that you can take anywhere, that would be suitable for a family with older children. A dog with those qualities should be easily trained to behave well in public, but that will be up to you.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I really disagree that it is breeding and not training. When you see a service dog doing its job and being all a service dog can be---many people are envious. I can't tell you how many gazillion times I was asked could I get someone's grand kids to act like that? How do I get my dog to act like that? ETC ETC ETC During my last dog's career.

It's BOTH. Start with good genetic material and then add at least 2 years worth of really hard work and you wind up with a dog like that. I worked my BUTT off to get her like that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You can't get out what isn't there to begin with. One can only enhance or suppress genetic traits to a certain degree. Sure, some top trainers can train a dog to appear that it is more than it is, but I wish Average Joe a lot of luck with that. If it was mostly training with a little bit of genetics, washouts in any venue would be rare and most of the people on this forum would be competing in the WUSV with their dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You can't get out what isn't there to begin with. One can only enhance or suppress genetic traits to a certain degree. Sure, some top trainers can train a dog to appear that it is more than it is, but I wish Average Joe a lot of luck with that. If it was mostly training with a little bit of genetics, washouts in any venue would be rare and most of the people on this forum would be competing in the WUSV with their dogs.


I didn't say it was mostly training with a little bit of genetics. I never implied at all that anybody is using fancy dog training to make a (presumably subpar) dog more than what it is.

I said that it is both, that it requires starting with good genetics. I couldn't honestly spout a percentage, But I don't care how great of a breeder you get a puppy from, it simply is NOT going to grow up and act like a highly trained service dog unless you do the work! And nobody is getting to the WUSV without a heck of a lot of work, either! They don't train themselves to do any highly specialized work, you need both the pieces which off the cuff I am inclined to say might be 50/50 as far as importance. You are never going to get a genetically shy or fearful dog to be a service dog, not that plenty of people aren't sadly trying every single day.


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