# Stressed out with a strong dog



## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Me and my wife went to the beach for 3 hours left bella at home we have her in our room close door I cleaned my room spotless before I left we have her in a very big cage she broke it got out and tore up my room she ate Reese pieces and gum the vet said she will be okay the gum doesn't have anything really harmful and netheir is reese pieces im just so aggravated shes big for her age but she's also strong she just frustrates me so much she already had surgery on her intestine for intusussection now I got to wait a couple of days to make sure she didn't eat anything she can't pass we gotta buy another cage idk if it's any stronger ones out there she's a perfect behaving dog but she refuses to stay in the cage what's really blowing my mind she never does that when we are home and she's in the cage she never chews on anything or try to rip anything while we are home she's free as can be when we are home


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Wire crates are a joke. Get a strong airline crate.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Wire crates are a joke. Get a strong airline crate.


Yep. For dogs that are determined to escape, the wire crates are useless and can be dangerous. 
Hard plastic vari kennel or simular will keep then secure.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My 45 pound husky mix flips his plastic crate. I find him upside down all the time. The wire crate was worse. It sounds like possibly anxiety. What happens if you leave her out but keep the doors to bathroom and bedrooms closed?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Not that it is applicable.....but from the first time when I allowed my current dog alone in the house, I set it up differently than if I just went outside for a bit and she couldn't come with me. I'd put her on her spot, not allowing her to crowd me at the door which was easy for the dog to figure out because she never goes out the front door unleashed. Anyway, getting a dog to relax in your absence can be difficult...a dog just wants to be with you but has to learn it can't always be with you.....teaching the distinction certainly can be done.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Can you get a chainlink kennel for in the garage? (with a chainlink top on it).


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

llombardo said:


> My 45 pound husky mix flips his plastic crate. I find him upside down all the time. The wire crate was worse. It sounds like possibly anxiety. What happens if you leave her out but keep the doors to bathroom and bedrooms closed?


I never tried it I just leave her in the crate it's been time where we have been gone 7 hours and she never broke out but it could be anxiety im always home with her


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Can you get a chainlink kennel for in the garage? (with a chainlink top on it).


We don't have a garage


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You can buy clips( the kind that are on a leash) at a hardware store to clip a wire crate together on the ends and doors.Worked well for me.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Wire crates are a joke. Get a strong airline crate.


Finn is 9 months and 85 lbs. He would destroy our house if left unattended.
He has a lg airline Vari crate. He is locked in the crate when we're not home or if we're asleep. He also eats in his crate.
We bought it about 11 years ago when we rescued our last GSD and it's still in great shape. I don't know that a dog could escape from an airline crate.

My niece bought a nice used one on Craigslist for her Golden Ret.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> You can buy clips( the kind that are on a leash) at a hardware store to clip a wire crate together on the ends and doors.Worked well for me.


I tried twist ties with Midnite and he meticulously undid them, they were in one piece untied. He got through zip ties to. Imagine his surprise when I used little locks, thst finally worked. After all that he was out of the crate within a couple weeks.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

If the solution is better managing the problem through safeguards......I'd maybe look further than that and try and deal with the impetus as well.


SuperG


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Yes they can escape an airline crate if determined. 
I don't think I have a pic of the one a past dog chewed a hole in and escaped but yes, if they really have anxiety issues they can make short work of an airline crate!
Youtube to the rescue!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk6g0SC_QFM


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you really have an especially good escaper you may need to go with an aluminum crate. I have had a 90 pound GSD break out of a 700 veri-kennel airline crate by pushing through the front door even with those 4 metal cross bars.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Baillif said:


> If you really have an especially good escaper you may need to go with an aluminum crate. I have had a 90 pound GSD break out of a 700 veri-kennel airline crate by pushing through the front door even with those 4 metal cross bars.


Yup, Ranger would blow the door off the plastic crate, fixed it, next day same thing thing. We had to put him in it and push the door up against the wall. That worked long enough to where could be trusted.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This just frustrates the heck out of me. And it's not the dog owners fault. It's just something that needs to change. This especially when you bring a GSD (an active-working-herding) dog into your home.

To me, it's odd but understandable. I would never have considered bringing a terrier or hound into my house and expect them to act like a Kaka-Poo, but sometimes that is expected of a GSD. Easy to understand because they have served man in so many capacities (guide dog, war etc). 

While I understand this time of get it now with the click of a smart phone, I cannot understand this huge gap - you want a GSD for it's varied qualities - you are willing to pay for a great breeder and classes to bring your pup to be the best they can be ...... yet, there's something missing....

IMHO, if you can bring your pup thru the classes and you are great at training them to be a well balanced good representative of the breed - they cannot be trusted in the house alone? This seems like a big step has been skipped to me, to the detriment of the pup. If your pup can excel at classes in show, bite work, socialization - whatever.... Why is the most important skill of all not taught by trainers as step one? How to be calm, relaxed and comfortable in your owners house when they are away. 

There are many stories here that say their dogs cannot really be trusted to be out of their crates until after they are one or two years old. I know that this is not desirable for the dog or the owner. Why don't trainers offer classes that teach pups "house manners" before the training they offer?

If these pups start IPO, Show and all the rest training when they are young, why don't they have the same training opportunity to learn how to mind in their own owners house without tearing it up?

It's very sad to me, to read about all these highly trained pups up to 2 years old performing in work,sport or show, that have never had the same professional classes or training to do the simplest thing as be trusted to be in their owners house without causing damage.

There's a huge gap here, which causes good dogs to spend most of their day in a crate - from mere lack of training. Someone could do very well opening a training service that specifically targets this area these puppies and dogs which the owners would love. It's the same as training for anything else, it can be done.

I mean no harm by this post, I'm not lashing out at anyone - just think there is a gap here that would be appreciated by many if this training service was offered.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Have a look at these crates, they are expensive but you'll only be buying one. Impact Kennels - Working Dog Dry Goods


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> My 45 pound husky mix flips his plastic crate. I find him upside down all the time. The wire crate was worse. It sounds like possibly anxiety. What happens if you leave her out but keep the doors to bathroom and bedrooms closed?


Wow. How is that ok with you? If you heard that from any other poster, you would say rehome.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> This just frustrates the heck out of me. And it's not the dog owners fault. It's just something that needs to change. This especially when you bring a GSD (an active-working-herding) dog into your home.
> 
> To me, it's odd but understandable. I would never have considered bringing a terrier or hound into my house and expect them to act like a Kaka-Poo, but sometimes that is expected of a GSD. Easy to understand because they have served man in so many capacities (guide dog, war etc).
> 
> ...




This is a bit of topic but very interesting. I think you'll find the reason those training service aren't offered is because it's almost impossible to stop a young high drive dog from destroying a house when left alone. 
It's the "left alone" part that is the key here, alone = boredom for the dog (not to mention possibly separation anxiety) So they find ways to entertain themselves. That may be ripping up your couch, going though the garbage pulling up the carpet etc. whatever takes their fancy and relives their boredom and gives them an outlet for all that energy.
For most normal people with a job it's impossible to be there 24/7 to correct unwanted behaviours - it really is a matter of waiting for the dog to grow out of it.

Those same dogs can quite easily excel at obedience, protection, tracking etc - because they are engaging with their human, they are stimulated and challenged and love to be doing "stuff" 

This is just my opinion, I'm no dog trainer nor a behaviourist


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Mooch said:


> This is a bit of topic but very interesting. I think you'll find the reason those training service aren't offered is because it's almost impossible to stop a young high drive dog from destroying a house when left alone.
> It's the "left alone" part that is the key here, alone = boredom for the dog (not to mention possibly separation anxiety) So they find ways to entertain themselves. That may be ripping up your couch, going though the garbage pulling up the carpet etc. whatever takes their fancy and relives their boredom and gives them an outlet for all that energy.
> For most normal people with a job it's impossible to be there 24/7 to correct unwanted behaviours - it really is a matter of waiting for the dog to grow out of it.
> 
> ...


So, the compromise is - tough (psuedoswearing) for the dog. I want what I want regardless if my lifestyle can handle that type of dog. I want and so, sorry for your bad luck puppy - I'll make you fit into my world.....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> This just frustrates the heck out of me. And it's not the dog owners fault. It's just something that needs to change. This especially when you bring a GSD (an active-working-herding) dog into your home.
> 
> To me, it's odd but understandable. I would never have considered bringing a terrier or hound into my house and expect them to act like a Kaka-Poo, but sometimes that is expected of a GSD. Easy to understand because they have served man in so many capacities (guide dog, war etc).
> 
> ...


I don't think you really understand training. No trainer can take your dog teach it "house manners" and then have that dog be able to live in a house unobserved and unsupervised and then expect that dog to never get into trouble or start maladaptive habits or behaviors.

Dogs that end up trusted and relatively well adjusted in a house fall into one of two categories. 

They are a doormat dog which isn't really mouthy, chewy, doesn't have a genetic predisposition to dig and has an off switch or perhaps doesn't really even have an on switch.

The other is a dog that has been only allowed out while observed and was corrected for messing with things that it shouldn't given outlets to express all those potentially destructive desires in a healthy way that satisfies the dog. Dogs like this are formed through a long long road of good training and management by people who know what they are doing. They don't just happen because you shipped a dog off to manners class for a week or a month or whatever. They are the result of months or years of training, conditioning, and observation by people who know what they are doing.

Then there are some dogs out there that can't ever be trusted in a house without supervision. They're constantly wanting to pick things up and chew them or tear them apart or dig or whatever, and while they can be stopped while you're in the room as soon as you leave they're getting into trouble unless you spend a lot of time setting them up sting style.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I don't think you really understand training. No trainer can take your dog teach it "house manners" and then have that dog be able to live in a house unobserved and unsupervised and then expect that dog to never get into trouble or start maladaptive habits or behaviors.
> 
> Dogs that end up trusted and relatively well adjusted in a house fall into one of two categories.
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't have an issue with crating dogs. It becomes an issue when the dogs needs are not being fulfilled. If someone is crating a dog or has them in a kennel run or secure behind a good fence and then making sure they go to the bathroom enough times a day and are getting play and interaction and that can happen in a "normal" household then high drive dogs are fine there.

Most german shepherds aren't terribly high drive anyway. I don't even like it called that to be honest. Most people when they use the term high drive are describing a hyper dog. There is a difference between a hyper dog and a drivey dog. They are not the same thing.

Unless someone has a complete busy lunatic of a dog that never settles most dogs even if they require a lot of exercise end up shutting down and laying around the house fairly lazy for a good chunk of the day in one or two spots. If that happens to be a crate then whatever.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I don't have an issue with crating dogs. It becomes an issue when the dogs needs are not being fulfilled. If someone is crating a dog or has them in a kennel run or secure behind a good fence and then making sure they go to the bathroom enough times a day and are getting play and interaction and that can happen in a "normal" household then high drive dogs are fine there.
> 
> Most german shepherds aren't terribly high drive anyway. I don't even like it called that to be honest. Most people when they use the term high drive are describing a hyper dog. There is a difference between a hyper dog and a drivey dog. They are not the same thing.
> 
> Unless someone has a complete busy lunatic of a dog that never settles most dogs even if they require a lot of exercise end up shutting down and laying around the house fairly lazy for a good chunk of the day in one or two spots. If that happens to be a crate then whatever.


I thought so... you are what you are.....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I have two malinois in the prime of life. I have a nice house. I have nice things. My dogs do not destroy my things. They do not eat socks, they do not eat shoes, they do not counter surf, they do not get into the trash. They are able to play outside with the board and trains for at least an hour or two a day they get training and play sessions. They come to work with me at the kennel but when I am training other dogs they are in crates. It keeps them out of trouble. It keeps them from learning things I don't want them learning. It keeps them from eating things that will land them on a vet surgical table. It keeps them from potentially tearing each other up when I am not paying attention as they are both unneutered males. They don't fight, but Crank is just about to hit 1 year of age and it could happen. They are only separated by 10 pounds. Both have really nice teeth conditioned biting jaws and know how to use them. It would be bad.

When I am able to halfway watch them these days they're out and about in the house with me, but it does take management because if you allow a malinois to do their own thing they will ramp themselves up until something bad happens. It is just how they are. No amount of exercise will fix that. Two that feed off each other ramping themselves up could get really out of hand fairly fast if not checked. I have dogs I have worked hard to condition to be calm and sensible in the house, but if I was not there to make it happen it wouldn't be that way. They aren't those kinds of dogs by nature.

Fenced in yard you say? Both dogs can jump an 8 foot wooden fence if they wanted to or climb right over the top of a chainlink one. So yeah I crate my dogs. I'm a good dog owner.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Stonevintage said:


> I thought so... you are what you are.....


I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean? It comes off as smug and judgemental, and trying to decide if any board rules are being broken.

I could be wrong, may be an innocent remark. Can you explain?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My op (please read the disclaimer) was meant in a non conflict maner as stated.

The original statement said that dogs of this nature could not be trained to have house manners and those that could were either weak or of no drive.

My question brought about a response that most GSD's were not strong which brought me back to my original question with no harm intended... wouldn't it be great if there were trainers that could help people to get their GSD's basic house manners? First he said no, impossible, then he reversed his opinion and said that it's mostly no drive or controllable drive dogs that most own anyway. That's why I asked, which it? Not meant to be inflammatory on my part in any way, as originally stated.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I said it isn't going to happen because the trainers just put the behavior on them and that was it. It would have to be a constant management/training process that the owner would have to own for an undetermined amount of time. And for some no supervision wouldn't be a realistic goal.

It wouldn't be something you could hire a trainer for unless you had big monies to let them live in the house with you for a long time. You could have a trainer train the owner possibly, but even that is a hit or a miss thing and ultimately entirely up to the owner to make happen.

If it was a dog that was already allowed to learn tearing **** up is fun, then it becomes an even harder struggle to eliminate those behaviors after the dog has learned them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I said it isn't going to happen because the trainers just put the behavior on them and that was it. It would have to be a constant management/training process that the owner would have to own for an undetermined amount of time. And for some no supervision wouldn't be a realistic goal.
> 
> It wouldn't be something you could hire a trainer for unless you had big monies to let them live in the house with you for a long time. You could have a trainer train the owner possibly, but even that is a hit or a miss thing and ultimately entirely up to the owner to make happen.
> 
> If it was a dog that was already allowed to learn tearing **** up is fun, then it becomes an even harder struggle to eliminate those behaviors after the dog has learned them.


I understand it would be harder once the behavior has been allowed to happen. However, to me, all training requires trainer, owner endorsement and follow up, does it not? What's so different about this training that is so different than other "more showy to the public" training, which also requires mutual training? I find it hard to believe it can't be done. If it can't, then we hundreds of thousands of people who have taught out GSD's house manners in the last 100 years or so must all have just gotten "lucky".


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are plenty of trainers out there, myself included that provide clients with the knowledge necessary to make it happen. The issue is usually one of follow through and commitment or lack thereof.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> There are plenty of trainers out there, myself included that provide clients with the knowledge necessary to make it happen. The issue is usually one of follow through and commitment or lack thereof.


I understand that, my question tonight is - to GSD owners, why wouldn't you put as much money and effort into getting your pup,dogs house worthy as you do into the other disciplines you pay for? 

As my initial post stated, this was meant to be non conflict, something that can elevate owners experience with their GSD's. It may be hard, and there may be little to "show" (no certificates, no grand poses) but it is very important and IMHO can be taught to the owners from the trainers, from the first day they see them...... it's just a gap in training that I see that I hope will be offered soon. Most of what's learned in "classes" or "training" requires the owners intense follow up...


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

A crate is a tool that has many purposes. I crate trained all my puppies, and it was a safe place, a good place, a place where they ate, a place for bones and kongs, or just a place to get away. With consistency, time, and maturity my dogs graduate to free reign of the house. I don't know why you have such a negative view of crates, nor do I care if other people use crates or not, but I promise you I am not lacking in basic "house manners" training knowledge. 

OP - in addition to getting a more secure crate, you should make the crate a good place for your puppy. Look up crate games, feed in the crate, give her treats in the crate. Also make sure she is getting enough exercise and mental stimulation. Good luck!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi, If your post was directed at me on why you don't know why I have such a negative opinion of crates, this may shock you but I don't.

They have their uses, especially for young unsupervised puppies. I never meant to become some hated, freak, vigilante against crates, but it happened. This goes way back to some old posts last fall. There was a poll taken here and my exception was to the respondents that reported they left their GSD's crated for 7-9 hours per day. I took exception to that, and the rest is history.

The thing I do think is wrong, when people are caging puppies, is that most of the recommendations say to confine the space down to small enough that they cannot turn around or find a little space to potty and still lay down. That flat out enrages me. That when combined with owners that are gone 7 or more hours per day = torture. 

Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Wow. How is that ok with you? If you heard that from any other poster, you would say rehome.


Why would one rehome a dog because he flips the crate? Just to clarify, the dog isn't upside down, but the crate is. He moves the crate all the time. 

Why is this ok with me you ask? If I leave him out and I'm not home to supervise he will cause a fight. Either he will end up dead or others could be hurt. Rehoming him is not an option at this time(his rescue group has deemed him hard to handle and won't place him), so he either stays in the crate during the day or most likely ends up put to sleep(that is what they suggested). I will take the crate daily and put up with him over putting him to sleep(he is a great dog most of the time). 

He is who he is and until he realizes that he doesn't need to use all those fine survival techniques he learned as a street dog in a foreign country, he is safe in his crate when I'm not home.

That is why it's ok with me......


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Why would one rehome a dog because he flips the crate? Just to clarify, the dog isn't upside down, but the crate is. He moves the crate all the time.
> 
> Why is this ok with me you ask? If I leave him out and I'm not home to supervise he will cause a fight. Either he will end up dead or others could be hurt. Rehoming him is not an option at this time(his rescue group has deemed him hard to handle and won't place him), so he either stays in the crate during the day or most likely ends up put to sleep(that is what they suggested). I will take the crate daily and put up with him over putting him to sleep(he is a great dog most of the time).
> 
> ...


Wow. I just saw in your last post of a couple of days ago that you work full time plus over time. I see that your feeling is that if you didn't take these dogs in they would be dead.

You are an angel to these dogs, however - I didn't know you had a dog exhibiting behaviors as extreme as flipping his cage on a routine basis. 

If he were the only dog you owned and you came home to see he repetitively flipped his cage over - would you just say, it's ok because otherwise he would be dead?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


Wow.. point taken.. apparently, I should have been shot.. Apparently when you are single and work full time, you can't own a dog... phew so happy I am married now and have a doggy door.. and a well trained dog. I wonder what will happen when I have a puppy this fall??? 

Titan was crated for 8-10 hours a day until he was about a year old (after potty training and approriate bladder control was established). If I could come home during lunch I would, some of those days I had a dog walker take him out, but there were a number of days he was in there for that long, because he couldn't be trusted outside the crate. 

Even in a room with NOTHING but the walls of my house and his chews, he managed to eat through drywall and chew on the beams of the house I was renting, and attempt to destroy my stairs... please tell me how you would have done this better? Did he do this while I was there? No... therefore no amount of correction would have been warranted. Guess what.. now he is trusted outside his crate for all hours of the day if needed. Still working 8-10 hours... but now he can lay outside the crate instead of in it. If I all of a sudden had to crate, and it's happened, I would still do it. 

As ballif stated, as long as the dogs needs are being met there is no harm in crating, even for lengthy hours IMO. Literally every ounce of free time I had went to this dog and his training, and manners, and exercise and socialization and EVERYTHING. I would wake up extra early to tucker him out.. I was all his when I got home from work until bedtime doing various things.. training, exercise, friend's house, etc. Weekends were his 100% and if I couldn't bring him somewhere, there was a likelihood I wouldn't have gone wherever I was invited. 

Guess what.. he's 5 and turned out just fine. One of the best behaved dogs I know and wouldn't you know it... he was crated for over 7 hours a day in the first year I had him... man if that warrants me getting shot, I wonder what you really wish upon those that really are bad owners.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi
> 
> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


 
Why?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


Those who live in glass houses....


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi, If your post was directed at me on why you don't know why I have such a negative opinion of crates, this may shock you but I don't.
> 
> They have their uses, especially for young unsupervised puppies. I never meant to become some hated, freak, vigilante against crates, but it happened. This goes way back to some old posts last fall. There was a poll taken here and my exception was to the respondents that reported they left their GSD's crated for 7-9 hours per day. I took exception to that, and the rest is history.
> 
> ...


Why would I want my puppy to find a little space in the crate to potty?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Man I'm definitely not a fan of long hours of crating, but to advocate violence is way, WAY outa line. What an awful thing to say. Even if it's just a figure of speech.

This is America and people are free to raise their animals the way they choose.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> The thing I do think is wrong, when people are caging puppies, *is that most of the recommendations say to confine the space down to small enough that they cannot turn around* or find a little space to potty and still lay down. That flat out enrages me. That when combined with owners that are gone 7 or more hours per day = torture.
> 
> *Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot*.



_That is the exact opposite of what the recommendations are. _ The recommendations are the dog SHOULD have enough room to turn around and lay down but not so much there is plenty of room to potty.

And...

Super nice. Really.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! Stoney, what? 

Sometimes the drives that make a dog a great dog on the field also make the dog determined enough to get out of a Fort Knox crate. 

I know of a highly trained bite sport Mali that's worked daily who enjoys the challenge of getting out of crates. :crazy: I'd say for him it's a game that he enjoys, like solving a puzzle.

Like Bailiff said, aluminum. Pricey tho....



Stonevintage said:


> <snipped>
> 
> If these pups start IPO, Show and all the rest training when they are young, why don't they have the same training opportunity to learn how to mind in their own owners house without tearing it up?
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If they're properly introduced to crates and conditioned to relax in them it never comes down to needing it. They just go in and chill out. It's partially an obedience thing. Allowing them to enter and maintain a jazzed upstate of mind in the crate creates the frustration that leads to dogs trying to get out.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> If they're properly introduced to crates and conditioned to relax in them it never comes down to needing it. They just go in and chill out. It's partially an obedience thing. Allowing them to enter and maintain a jazzed upstate of mind in the crate creates the frustration that leads to dogs trying to get out.


All of mine will go into there crates and just sleep with the doors wide open, I doubt this would happen if we didn't exercise the pants off of them, the crates to them are their own spaces with their blankets and they relax and sleep in them, it's a good spot to be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> If they're properly introduced to crates and conditioned to relax in them it never comes down to needing it. They just go in and chill out. It's partially an obedience thing. Allowing them to enter and maintain a jazzed upstate of mind in the crate creates the frustration that leads to dogs trying to get out.


Exactly.

Crate Games is an excellent DVD to teach them to relax.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Due to space in our new housing we have opted to not put the crate up, but when we take trips and sometimes when we watch other dogs if I bring the crate out, he'll go right into it and hang out, door open and just chill. He loves that thing.. even got a soft crate for camping and when we need to leave him at the site in our tent for a little bit, he goes in it and sleeps.. not tearing it up and breaking out.. he loves his space. I will come in handy when we do get our puppy.. he'll get his space again.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.K., O.K..... Baillif 

I swear though, some dogs dig the challenge of figuring out how to get out.

My Smitty dog used to be an escape artist extrodinaire. Crates not so much, getting bored in the back yard, yup.

He wasn't jazzed up per se, he just likes finding holes, getting out and be-bopping around the neighborhood. 

I'd watch him, he'd scan the perimeter, find a loose board in the privacy fence, just a weak nail, a twist in the board and he'd jam his body through, a gap between the wire fence and earth. He has a radar for weaknesses in barricades. 

Then he's self rewarding because he's achieved his goal of being able to do his street dog thing. 





Baillif said:


> If they're properly introduced to crates and conditioned to relax in them it never comes down to needing it. They just go in and chill out. It's partially an obedience thing. Allowing them to enter and maintain a jazzed upstate of mind in the crate creates the frustration that leads to dogs trying to get out.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Another problem with crates and confinement I've seen is dogs that have severe storm fear or other anxiety/temperament issues. Had a friend with a Golden who could not be kept confined after a lightening strike on her house while he was home. He went from being calm and quiet in a kennel to absolutely nuts when confined, crate, pen, room in the house (he literally tore up multiple wooden doors) fenced yard didn't matter. The dog had multiple hunting titles too, so well trained.

So it's not *always* a training issue. Ya know....Maybe in the OPs case.....yes. It varies though and that was my point.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi, If your post was directed at me on why you don't know why I have such a negative opinion of crates, this may shock you but I don't.
> 
> They have their uses, especially for young unsupervised puppies. I never meant to become some hated, freak, vigilante against crates, but it happened. This goes way back to some old posts last fall. There was a poll taken here and my exception was to the respondents that reported they left their GSD's crated for 7-9 hours per day. I took exception to that, and the rest is history.
> 
> ...


So much for having a "non conflict" discussion.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


<sigh> Oh yes, not confrontational at all, Stone.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ranger was our first crate trained dog. He was never thrilled about it, but tolerated it ok. It took a while as he could be destructive, but he got his freedom around one year.

Ollie is 15 months and he loves it, uses it on his own whenever there is down time and the other dogs tell him to buggar off. He crates himself when its time for us to leave. Right on que he'll run to our bedroom jump across the bed and go in it, weird dog, lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, I guess this is progress? Instead of putting "bad dogs" down we'er "shooting owners??" 

If advise is is still a confederation?? I would start here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6818801-post4.html


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

All my dogs since 1985 have been crate trained. I use the airline type crate. Never had a problem with any of them trying to escape. Mostly they have just slept in their crates. All but two had free roam of the house during the day after they grew up. The only two that didn't were a pit we had that loved to chase the cats and would break out a window and the GSD I have now as she also chases cats. She is not left alone much as I work at home and we have a gate across the my office door so she can just hang out in the room with me. None of my dogs have been furniture destroyers though. I have pet sat for two different people who have escape artists. The first is a 55 pound mixed breed who hated her crate and would turn it over and fight til she escaped. I found the owner had not installed all the screws in the places they should go so the crate came apart easily. I fixed that for her and the dog quit escaping and now goes into the crate with the door open and loves it. The dog is not crated on a regular basis any more. The second one was a GSD/Mal cross whose owner left him crated during the day while she worked. I came over to feed the dogs and he met me at the door. He had broken his wire crate open at the corner. I went home and got a bunch of zip ties and tied each corner. No more escaping for him. His owner reports he had been escaping regularly lately while she was at work and had just replaced his first wire crate after he broke out. He also rubbed a raw spot on his nose trying to get out. He now has a large wire crate, zip tied at the corners and has stayed inside pretty well. He is just 1 year old as of March and still can't quite be trusted to be free for long periods of time. We are now working on a plan where he will be out for a hour while she is working but then she will take a break and come home to check for damage and put him in his crate til lunch. I have told her about frozen kongs to keep him occupied while in the crate. I think he will do fine as he is getting better and better about being out now. He also gets lots of exercise before she leaves for work which helps a lot. They have a second dog who is elderly and sleeps in his wire crate during the day with no problem so first dog is not actually alone.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi, If your post was directed at me on why you don't know why I have such a negative opinion of crates, this may shock you but I don't.
> 
> They have their uses, especially for young unsupervised puppies. I never meant to become some hated, freak, vigilante against crates, but it happened. This goes way back to some old posts last fall. There was a poll taken here and my exception was to the respondents that reported they left their GSD's crated for 7-9 hours per day. I took exception to that, and the rest is history.
> 
> ...


Dude, seriously? Shot? What if I said everyone who was broad-brush judgmental should be shot? I bet you wouldn't like that. (Oh wait, you don't think you're judgmental.)

Also, you have the recommendation wrong. Multiple sources recommended that I leave my puppy enough space to turn and relax comfortably but not so much space that there was a sleep section and a potty section of the crate.

Regarding the question of why would you carefully raise and train a puppy but still not trust them? It's not a matter of not trusting my dog. I don't necessarily trust her just yet to not decide to make her own fun, but that will come in time, and I do trust her not to hurt other household pets. The thing is, the cats do not realize that she means them no harm. Letting her have free run of the house would cause them even more stress than her very presence already does. They've given up a lot of ground to her because they remain terrified of her, and I don't think it's fair to them to ask them to basically hide under a bed all day in order to feel safe. I know they're safe from her, but they don't know that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Baillif said:


> There are plenty of trainers out there, myself included that provide clients with the knowledge necessary to make it happen. The issue is usually one of follow through and commitment or lack thereof.


So true!!!! My clients tend to think I have a magic wand. I tell them that I provide the tools and they have to work with them. Most don't and are not successful. The ones that do are happy with the results. 
Often I get the "yes, but"s and people just want me to tell them that what they are doing is just fine but they called me because they had a problem.... Go figure. Sometimes I want to scream it from the roof tops so that's what I do now. 
IF YOU GET GOOD ADVICE, IMPLEMENT IT!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> What's so different about this training that is so different than other "more showy to the public" training, which also requires mutual training? I find it hard to believe it can't be done. If it can't, then we hundreds of thousands of people who have taught out GSD's house manners in the last 100 years or so must all have just gotten "lucky".


How many dogs have you had? Ours have all been totally unique individuals, with varying levels of trustworthiness around the house. Dena was never a destructive chewer, she just didn't go through that phase. She was completely trustworthy, even with shoes left on the floor, from a very young age. I'd love to say my stellar training had something to do with that, but it didn't. Yes, we were "lucky". That's just how she was. 

Keefer wasn't a destructive chewer as a puppy either, but both Sneaker and Cassidy (our first two GSDs) went through the usual phase when young, and then eventually outgrew it. That did take some time though, especially with Cassidy, who went through a secondary chewing phase months after she had stopped chewing stuff and we thought she had outgrown it. Prior to that, she literally couldn't be left unsupervised for more than a minute or two or we'd find her happily shredding something. Poor training on our part? No, that's just how she was. 

And Halo has never fully outgrown destructive chewing, although she doesn't do it that much anymore now that she's 6 years old. She will still occasionally decide to eat the toilet paper off the roll, or grab a potholder off the kitchen counter and chew a hole in it. She's totally fine with shoes or clothing left on the floor, dropped pens, and other things that are always around, but would go for eyeglasses or a TV remote on the coffee table. She loves TP, paper towels, kleenex, and other paper items, and anything that has food on it, smells like food, ever touched food, or was in a room where food was prepared, lol. :wild: Failure in training? That's just how she is. 

The thing that's "different" about trustworthiness when left alone without supervision and other types of training is that you're not there to supervise! That means you can't enforce whatever manners training you've done, and a smart dog knows that. At this point, both Keefer and Halo probably could be left alone in the house when we're gone, but we still put them in the garage pen. It's plenty big, and there's a dog door to an outside run for potties. And we do still crate them at night in our bedroom. Both of them go in on their own and wait for us to come close the door. Sometimes they nap in their crates during the day. 

Part of the reason we still confine our dogs is because they clearly don't mind (and even expect it), we know for sure that they're not going to destroy something of ours (and possibly harm themselves in the process) even though we don't think they actually will, and because my cat gets the run of the house when we're gone and at night. I don't think they'd hurt her, but again - better safe than sorry.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Okay first let me say this bella never done this before at all I go to the gym everyday almost for 3 or 4 hours a day and I come she's perfectly fine she's getting ready to turn six months very soon and she's slowly starting to stop listening to her commands it usually takes 3 or 4 times for me to get her to listen I think shes just going through a phase 

My wife leaves in the morning to go to work so this morning I said I want to see what bella does when we leave so I made it seem like I left too I turned everything off and I left my bedroom door open. So the first thing she start doing is whining and then it turned into barking and then 3 minutes later she started bouncing off her cage pushing all over it you would think it was two dogs fighting in there I was just shocked as I was watching her she's never done anything like this im always home but I leave the house a lot to and I'll come home she's fine I think she's going through a weird phase. When strangers get close to my gate her hairs stick up all over her body she starts snapping and barking but the weird part is when we are out the gate I swear to you guys she will let you walk up and pet and love on her no matter who you are no barking no hairs no anything she will sit with me right beside her and be perfectly fine I think she's just slowly but surely changing and I will have to go over her commands with her more now and the crate thing I'm going To get a 200$ One the ones that they can't absoulety brake out of


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

This is her


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

ILBella bella is 6 months old? You might be in the begining of adolescence. As for crates we used them with Daisy as she was the destroyer. Used a plastic one when she was was under 18 weeks nd then the metal crate. She learned quickly to unlatch. Fought that battle for almost a year and then at about 10 or 11 months the chewing stopped. i jst needed lots and lots of appropirate chewing materail . She would not chew when we werent around but she carried the chewies w/ her. Who Know ? I think Bella is testing some limits. Is there a way to gate offf a room or hallway so she has space. With daisy she had to have a window. She and Lucky were always gated off from the living room and front hallway.I understand being gone ,my dogs were alone for at least 9 hours most weekdays as my husband was an over the road truck driver. Have to agree w/ another poster its highly individual how dogs repond to crates and time alone. Hope it all works out well. BTW Bella is a very pretty girl !


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


Do you not have a job or something?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Perhaps I have been lucky....all 3 of my GSDs have had the run of the house. My current one before 6 months old. Personally, I believe you can train the dog to leave everything alone...it takes some effort but no different than any other training. 

I'm certain most people train their dogs to leave electrical cords and other potentially dangerous items untouched. I made it a top priority to teach the dog what is to be left alone in the house.

One can train the dog to believe you are always watching, it was the approach I used. Leave it training certainly can be effective when one isn't there to supervise.

In a nutshell, teach a dog to leave an electrical cord alone in your presence..then put the dog in a dog proofed room with an appropriate chew toy and an electrical cord ( unplugged of course )...cheap video monitor in room so you can observe...dog touches electrical cord....dog gets a surprise greeting from me in a heartbeat. I trained long down stays the same way outside..window open...I go inside and observe dog without dog seeing me...dog starts to budge and hears the voice. 

But maybe I have just been lucky as some say but I sure had to put some effort in to create my good luck.


SuperG


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Those who leave their GSD's caged for 7 or more hours per day IMHO should be shot.


That is offensive.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Bella67 said:


> That is offensive.


Agreed 
It's just a stupid thing to say.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

ILoveBella... she is so pretty!

Sorry to go off topic a bit... I think as other suggested, finding a new crate or securing the metal one. That or finding a way to gate off a room. When I was testing Titan's limits he got a bare hallway and some chews with his crate open to go into. Granted he ruined this for himself one time.. but I partially blame myself. I was kept late at work (absolutely not my call nor could i do anything about it) and I think he just went bonkers because it was way beyond the normal time. 

Anywho, if she is only 6 months, it might be too early for her to be trusted, but it's different with every dog. Titan was allowed out of his crate in my room free roaming at 4 months old when we slept at night but not alone during the days while I was at work. 

It may just take experimenting and figuring out what she can handle at this age and what you can handle  but in the mean time keeping her in a crate is a great idea (which you know) just have to find the right one for her apparently!


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Thank you and yes I got an idea to get a tall gate to fit in my hall way close all the doors that way she has room to walk around but technically can't go anywhere


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Thank you and yes I got an idea to get a tall gate to fit in my hall way close all the doors that way she has room to walk around but technically can't go anywhere


That's a great idea! You will have to give it a shot and let us know how she does! Don't be discouraged if she figures out how to detach that gate  She sounds like a smart one


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Then give her stuff to do as you leave because that is the main period dogs get anxious. Sprinkle treats everywhere (away from door entrances etc), play NPR as it doesn't have scary sounds and always sounds similar. Start with short times like 5 minutes and increase when she is doing well. If she still destroys your belongings, consider the aluminum crate or hire a trainer to figure out what it is that's bothering her. Keep your hellos and goodbyes low key, or non-existent.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> This is her


She is lovely! 

Leo sleeps and naps in his crate, which we cover with a dark blanket and leave with a fan facing away for white sound. If we need to go somewhere vwithout him, into the crate he goes, too. He expects a massage (which we ablidge) and we have used crate games since early puppyhood.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I never had to use a crate for either Newlie or Max, but I came close on Newlie. He went through a little period when he was throwing temper tantrums and doing a few (minor) destructive things. He had always had free run of the house but when my husband got sicker and we had alot of caregivers going in and out, some of them were afraid of a big GSD even though Newlie had not done anything to them. So, I put him behind a baby gate in the kitchen and, to my amazement, he actually seemed calmer once he didn't 
have free rein. So, even though my husband has passed away, I still put him behind a baby gate.

I know I will probably get hammered for saying this, but I think sometimes we take things too literally. The comment about being shot was just a figure of speech, that's all. We can all agree to disagree without everybody becoming so upset.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The first time I left Carm loose in my house (at about a year old), she ripped up the linoleum floor of the kitchen. 

I love crates.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> The first time I left Carm loose in my house (at about a year old), she ripped up the linoleum floor of the kitchen.
> 
> I love crates.


This made me laugh so hard... The first time I left Roxy alone, she opened the bathroom door and ate the trash in the bathroom. Apparently Q-tips and Kleenex are delicious. Who knew?

I'm terrified to try to leave Bash loose. It won't happen for a loooooong time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Getting back to the problem...

Sometimes, there are dogs that simply cannot be crated when their owners are gone. It is something like claustrophobia. The dog can be fine in a crate while you are there, and fine with the run of the house, but when you are gone and the dog is crated, the dog will do anything to get out, even injure their teeth, etc. 

I've had one of these dogs. She was a great dog, but she went through 2 wire crates and 2 airline crates, and I finally took the largest strongest crate and reinforced it with angle iron around all the edges, tightening it together with threaded rod. She was hacking away at that as well. 

Finally, at about six months of age, I decided to give her the run of the house, and she never had another problem. As I added females, my brother's bitch would have killed her and tried on a few occasions, I built kennels outside for the girls. The outside kennels did not cause what a crate did.

Over the years, I have used x-pens, and baby gates, and portable kennels, and all of these are not necessarily the same as a crate to some dogs. 

You do not have a garage, do you have a basement? If you can put up a small kennel, 5'x10'x6' high, your dog might be fine with that. Could you puppy proof one room, and and put a strong, tall baby gate in the door way? 

I personally think all dogs should be familiar and comfortable with crates. When a dog needs to stay at a vet or groomer, or when you are doing something dangerous, the dog can have a safe place and not be freaking out simply because he is crated. I don't like dogs being left in them for extended periods. But safety is definitely important. And most youngsters are likely to get themselves in serious trouble given free reign in a home, while the owner cannot be there.

The idea of using a crate to house train a puppy, is that the puppy is contained in his eating/sleeping area which is small enough that the dog will not potty in one end and lie in the other. It doesn't end there. The rule of thumb is that a puppy can last 1 hour for each month it is old, or that + an hour. So an eight week old puppy could last 2-3 hours. 

At night a pup can be shut off food and water at say 7 PM, allowed to potty at 11PM, and should be able to sleep through the night, and let out first thing at 5 or 6AM, with the consideration that the puppy is pretty much sleeping through. 

It is not torture. In fact, it is a quick way to teach a puppy where he should potty, and the dog is likely to have less stress through the process of house training if a good schedule and proper confinement when proper supervision is not possible is used.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Crates are unbelievably handy. Even if you don't think you really need one at home to confine your puppy, you might be glad one day that you crate trained the little guy. Then you'll have a dog that can go in a crate at the vet's, hotel, dog show, family event, boarding kennel, grooming shop. Or at home if they need to be confined for one reason or another (recovering from surgery, etc). 

I've been using crates for almost 40 years. The breeder loaned me one when I got my first dog as a "grown up" - a Sheltie from a show breeder. Been using them ever since. Sure, some have to stay confined longer than others. Some dogs just grow up faster and stop being a menace to your belongings and to themselves.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Mine all know how to open the latches on their crates, and are terrible about letting each other out. I have to clip their doors shut if I want to make sure that they all stay put...


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Well, I guess this is progress? Instead of putting "bad dogs" down we'er "shooting owners??"
> 
> If advise is is still a confederation?? I would start here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6818801-post4.html


Hey Chip!

I haven't seen you post for a while and was getting worried about you. Glad you are back!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

selzer said:


> I personally think all dogs should be familiar and comfortable with crates.


I personally think that is but part of the equation....especially if one does not require them for specific needs.

I'm going to try and interpret what Stonevintage suggested....the majority of dog owners use a crate, I assume. They use the crate as a management tool and they spend a fair amount time training the dog to acclimate to a crate....and many times that is where the training ends....problem solved I guess....management completed. However, I wonder how many dog owners are willing to spend the same amount of time crate training as they do training the dog to not use a crate and have the run of the house? I'm guessing it takes more time to train a dog to exist outside a crate in the owner's absence but IMHO, it's well worth it. 

I guess I am in the minority as I have never crate trained a dog and expended all my efforts in this department training the dog to earn it's privilege of having full range in the house.

Bottom line for me, I don't really care if others choose to utilize a crate but I think in all fairness, those who do crate their dogs in their absence should be equally fair and not look at others who choose not to crate their dogs and appreciate their approach as well. A crate is necessary for many but never has been for me...granted I used a large outside kennel for my first 2 shepherds as my management tool....basically the same as a crate even though it is 20 X 24 or so with a dog house entrance through a back door into the garage. 

I will say this much.....every time I pull into the driveway and see my dog's head in the window and then greeted as I enter the house.....it's a wonderful welcome.


SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Dogs if properly stimulated do not need to run around your house at all hours of the day. They can easily spend 8+ hours in a kennel. I also sleep in on weekends so they can be in overnight for 10+ hours and I rarely hear a peep.

I have had numerous working dogs through my home in the last few years. GSD, Mal and xMal.

All these dogs had different levels of trustworthyness in the house. Its innately in the dog. 
Some dogs start as monsters and with consistent management and training calm with maturity and some never get there because it is just not in their nature.

One thing every one of these dogs have in common whether puppy or young adult freshly imported is they were crate trained from day one. Every one of those dogs became happy and secure in their crate in short order and voluntarily entered and exited it.

The more anxious / hyper ones actually calmed down more in the crate (airline style) and were able to spend many an hour in relative silence. The den like feeling and restricted freedom which restricted the choices they had to make actually served as a major security blanket for them.

Currently I have 3 working dogs in the home.
Male intact 1 year old GSD
Male intact 18 month xMal
Male intact 3.5 year Malinois

They are all crated when I leave the house and can be loose when I am home to supervise. The male GSD would probably be ok to leave loose, he is innately that kind of dog. As his primary role is PP he will be loose when he is a bit more mature.

The Malniois (IPO rockstar) wouldnt destroy the house as he has an excellent off switch, but he would mark the furniture if he could. 

The GSDxMal is a 90lb monster and I like my nice home the way it is. He is always crated.

Ironically I have a welded wire 8x4 kennel in the garage. The xMal will howl all day if left in there. He would rather be in his airline crate then have all that wonderful space .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

And there is the difference....what occurs from day one differs with the individual's goals for the dog.


SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Not really, if I left 99% of those dogs loose in my house in the begining there would have been all sorts of difficulty regardless of what my "goals" were. 

When I bring in a new dog, I like for them to be loose in the house while I supervise. I can therefor correct undesirable behaviors and show the dog what I expect of them while indoors. Overtime they learn what is allowed and not allowed. However, many while ok under supervision will not be reliable when left to their own devices. 
As previously mentioned you can set up "sting" operations but the trouble isnt worth it imo. If the dog is like that, I wont place my furniture and home at risk. Its just not worth it the time and trouble to fight the dog's basic nature.

Regardless of what you want, some dogs just wont work out being loose and some will, thats a fact. 


When your dealing with working dogs its a whole different ball game. 
Most pets are as Bailiff puts it "doormat" type dogs and are fairly easy to keep loose.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I would never suggest to let a pup or new dog alone in the house from the beginning.....all I suggested and have done is started training the dog to earn it's independence in the house from the beginning......most everybody does....housebreaking of course....and of course most use a crate....I did otherwise. I'd be crazy to leave a pup alone in the house by itself from the beginning.

Guess I have been lucky as all 4 of my dogs ended up with free rein in the house.

Oh, so all working dogs end up in crates or some other form of confinement? I have no idea but I always appreciate sweeping generalizations....such as all working dogs must be crated as they can never be trusted alone in a house.


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SuperG said:


> I personally think that is but part of the equation....especially if one does not require them for specific needs.
> 
> I'm going to try and interpret what Stonevintage suggested....the majority of dog owners use a crate, I assume. They use the crate as a management tool and they spend a fair amount time training the dog to acclimate to a crate....and many times that is where the training ends....problem solved I guess....management completed. However, I wonder how many dog owners are willing to spend the same amount of time crate training as they do training the dog to not use a crate and have the run of the house? I'm guessing it takes more time to train a dog to exist outside a crate in the owner's absence but IMHO, it's well worth it.
> 
> ...


I have never crate trained a dog. 

When I have a litter of puppies, I put crate halves down in the area where they are kept part of the day, and the run into them out of them, on top of them like the little caves they are. 

When they are 6-7 weeks old, I put 3 or 4 into a big crate, or 7-8 in two big crates, and drive them four miles to the vet, where we generally carry them, crate and all into the vet, get them examined, cut their nails, and give them shots and then back into the crates, back into the SUV, 4 miles home, and back into their area. 

4 weeks later, if they are still with me, this is repeated. 

That is the whole of crate training I do. 

When I need to move dogs around, I steer a youngster into a wire crate and when I am ready, I let them out. Usually, they are in with their mom and don't need to be crated. But if I have two litters on the ground, and one needs to be moved, I will put a couple of youngsters into a wire crate -- this winter, Nicky and Nina slept in one large crate when it was too cold for them outside. No crate training. Just in they go in. The other dogs go into their crates, and there are no problems. 

But I don't sit there and put treats in there or leave the door open, put them in for a few minutes, and then let them out again, to get them used to it. Just no baloney, I just do it, and they just accept it, and I don't think a whole lot about it. Neither do they. 

The reason I think all dogs should be acclimated to a crate is because there may come a time when they need to spend the night at the vet. A dog that has never been crated may have a tougher time because of that.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't have any problem with whether anybody uses crates or doesn't. As I said, if Newlie had continued his "reign of terror," I would have gotten one for him, too. And I do appreciate the fact that working dogs are a whole different ballgame from the dogs that many of us have. I wish, though, that you could come up with a different designation than "doormat" dogs. It may not be meant that way but it sounds a little derisive to me. Maybe you could just refer to our dogs as pets...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My absolute favorites are the dogs who have never seen a crate in their life and then come to the vet for a procedure that requires them to be admitted. And then the dog who's supposed to be resting is instead flipping their lid because they were never crate trained and suddenly need to be confined. 

Yes yes. Handy training indeed.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> My absolute favorites are the dogs who have never seen a crate in their life and then come to the vet for a procedure that requires them to be admitted. And then the dog who's supposed to be resting is instead flipping their lid because they were never crate trained and suddenly need to be confined.
> 
> Yes yes. Handy training indeed.


Yes, that's how I feel about it too. Nothing like a dog at the grooming shop going nuts biting on the wires and pacing like a zoo animal. 

As much as some people are resistant to crate training, it does have it's advantages. if you never ever need it past puppyhood, then great! But you may need it for a dozen different situations, like when I had to crate Russell after his emergency surgery for intussusception. He didn't act like a maniac, because he was used to a crate.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I would never suggest to let a pup or new dog alone in the house from the beginning.....all I suggested and have done is started training the dog to earn it's independence in the house from the beginning......most everybody does....housebreaking of course....and of course most use a crate....I did otherwise. I'd be crazy to leave a pup alone in the house by itself from the beginning.
> 
> Guess I have been lucky as all 4 of my dogs ended up with free rein in the house.
> 
> ...


 
Ironically I am not the one making sweeping generalizations. I think you need a broader knowledge base to support your pronouncements..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My apologies as I thought your " When your dealing with working dogs its a whole different ball game." referred to the notion that the use of a crate was mandatory....glad to hear it isn't a requirement because it would be a deal breaker if I choose to get one.

SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> I have never crate trained a dog.
> 
> When I have a litter of puppies, I put crate halves down in the area where they are kept part of the day, and the run into them out of them, on top of them like the little caves they are.
> 
> ...


I would call that crate training, the best way to go about it. Deja was trained like that; no nonsense with her breeder. He'd parked them everywhere in all kinds of crates and work with one or two at a time. They didn't always like it but "that was their problem", according to the breeder.
She loves her crate more than her kennel or free roaming in the house.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

All my dogs have been crate trained though most have earned "freedom of the house" when I'm not home.

I've had two escape artists. Niki could tear thru any wire type crate in existence, like they were made out of butter. He could also unlock my windows and open them and jump out in the yard (thank goodness my yard is fenced front and back). He could open doors so being locked in a room wasn't an option. I got a 700P Vari-Kennel on sale, put Niki in it and never had another problem with him trying to escape, he loved it.

I got Mac after Niki died. Mac was also an escape artist but never attempted to get out of the house once he got out of his cage. Mac earned Freedom of the House when he was pretty young so cages weren't much of a problem UNTIL one evening when I went out and he opened the door to my pantry and ate a large box of Raisin Bran ... I couldn't find out how many raisins "2 scoops" were since scoops can be any size. I just knew there are a lot of raisins in the cereal so I took him to the ER where they made him barf up the cereal ... they said there were a lot of raisins in the barf. Anyway, the next time I went out I put him in Niki's old crate and he tore the gate off, pulling it into the crate, and got out. Luckily he never misbehaved again and had freedom of the house for the rest of his life.

Two of the guys I have now are good ... Ledgie and Faith have freedom of the house and 10 year old Bruiser is crated (he's failed freedom of the house every time I've tested him).


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Started using crates in the 90s. Honestly *I* have never had a dog with problems in the crate. I must be one heck-uva good dog trainer.   <note winky smilies 

I should hang out a shingle stating as much.  < 'nuther winky smile.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Everyone of my dogs except my senior dog have been crate trained. They all will go in to eat food and their bones. They will even be ok crated at a vet. Oddly enough none of them will freely walk into an open crate and just lay down except for the oldest who was never crate trained to begin with. She loves sleeping in the crate...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I do feel very strongly about GSD's that are crated more than 7 hours per day most days. There is a real possibility that some of those dogs would be fine in the house if they were just able to get training and a chance.

This isn't the first time I have played "devils advocate" to a controversial topic, every couple of months, as I have been doing, I plan to throw a little shocker into a cage conversation (as long as the Mods allow it). My point is to bring the topic up, maybe shake ONE owner out of habit/complacency and maybe give their dog a chance go leave the cage behind. That would be very cool.

Please remember that there seems to be hundreds of watchers at any point in time to one topic posted here.. Many of my posts may seem repetitive or simple (just "Google it"), but I'm not posting for just myself on this journey of raising a GSD pup. This is not just a site that receives little activity even if it seems there are there are just 40 or 50 people posting on a regular basis. This site has incredible longevity and there is such a wealth of information stored here. That's why it gets the heavy hits on people needing information.

For those of you that say "I tried it one time" (crate/cage free) and there was some damage to your material world - so that's it, .... are you that inflexible, really? 

Some, expect at least some material loss, some tolerate none, some feel a dog will die from eating something wrong - truth is, as in the last 100 years, odds are, it will all work out just fine, a work, a precaution, a little training.....


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Ugh. You think crates are cruel. Got it. Moving on.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ugh. You think crates are cruel. Got it. Moving on.


No, I don't think crates are cruel. I think owner's that keep their GSD's in them for 7-9 hours at a time during the day most days are cruel.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Many people prefer cage free chicken....so why not cage free GSDs??


SuperG


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I do feel very strongly about GSD's that are crated more than 7 hours per day most days. There is a real possibility that some of those dogs would be fine in the house if they were just able to get training and a chance.
> 
> This isn't the first time I have played "devils advocate" to a controversial topic, every couple of months, as I have been doing, I plan to throw a little shocker into a cage conversation (as long as the Mods allow it). My point is to bring the topic up, maybe shake ONE owner out of habit/complacency and maybe give their dog a chance go leave the cage behind. That would be very cool.
> 
> ...


Most do eventually get to roam outside their crate. Like I stated before Titan was crated for over 7 hours a day M-F until he was about a year. Since then he has never needed to be crated. I see this pattern with very many working households and see nothing wrong with it. Even the ones that never have their dogs loose and are always crated, I still dont' see anything wrong with it as long as the dogs needs are being met. 

I am curious if this is an opinion of experience and research or opinion of something you disagree with. Like what is your reasoning for so much hatred for this?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> No, I don't think crates are cruel. I think owner's that keep their GSD's in them for 7-9 hours at a time during the day most days are cruel.


My dogs are crated while I'm at work but they get way more exercise and stimulation than your dog does. Who are you to make judgements about their quality of life? Again... those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> No, I don't think crates are cruel. I think owner's that keep their GSD's in them for 7-9 hours at a time during the day most days are cruel.


I dont think you have the necessary experience to make that determination..


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No, I don't think crates are cruel. I think owner's that keep their GSD's in them for 7-9 hours at a time during the day most days are cruel.


Better to be crated when alone and safe than having free reign of the house and eating things they shouldn't which could cause severe health problems... I don't know how that makes owners who crate their dogs for seven hours cruel, but ok.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I love the crate, Wick likes to pull up carpet and swallow it when he is bored... Almost never does it anymore, but it only takes one time for him to get a blockage that could lead to death... So I crate him when I can't watch or leave the house.

Once a week we leave for 6/7 hours strait and I am so relieved that he is safe in his crate sleeping... Not swallowing carpet  if for some reason I had to work 8 hr shifts I would crate him then too, until I was sure he wouldn't swallow the carpet! And let's get real our puppies can't be trusted to follow our commands 100% while we stand there so at 6/8 months old you think they should be able to while we are away? As long as they are getting enough exercise, love and care... who cares?! I'd rather have a sleeping puppy than a dead one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think the issue with the crate that Stone is referring to is keeping a GSD in a crate everyday for the rest of the dogs life. A crate should be a training tool and a stepping stone so to speak. Yes there will be some dogs that might always require it, but I think the majority of them do just fine after a year or two., maybe less.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Meh, Stone's judgement and opinions really don't have any effect on me. I couldn't care less if they think I deserve to have a dog or not. They are cared for and happy. And I work 10 hours a day with a 40 minute commute in each direction. 

Oh well.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No, I don't think crates are cruel. I think owner's that keep their GSD's in them for 7-9 hours at a time during the day most days are cruel.


As Dalton (Patrick Swayze), in the famed cinematic delight, "Roadhouse", stated: "opinions vary."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> Oh, so all working dogs end up in crates or some other form of confinement?


If you're going to actually work a dog or participate in a sport, then yes - it will need to be crated. Doesn't matter if it's IPO, or nosework, or agility, or barn hunt, or dock diving, or flyball. When I'm at a flyball tournament, Halo spends more time over the course of the weekend in her crate than out of it. WAY more. 

I don't crate during the day, but I do have an enclosure in the garage where the dogs go when we're gone, and they sleep in their crates at night. Keefer would be fine loose in the house, and probably Halo too, but it's not worth the risk for me when I have an easy solution that the dogs are perfectly fine with. Halo is our first working line shepherd, and while she's not the most destructive dog we've ever had, the worse ones outgrew it by a year or two and she never really did. Smart, drivey dogs can be more challenging in many ways, and she certainly has been!


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

I would feel bad about crating my dog while I'm at work if my uncrated dog did more than just sleep all day. But she doesn't. I've setup a webcam and at most, she will walk from one spot to another a couple times and then lay back down. She doesn't entertain herself. She doesn't play with her toys. She just sleeps and waits for me to come home. So if my other dog sleeps all day in his crate, is there really much difference?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I think the issue with the crate that Stone is referring to is keeping a GSD in a crate everyday for the rest of the dogs life. A crate should be a training tool and a stepping stone so to speak. Yes there will be some dogs that might always require it, but I think the majority of them do just fine after a year or two., maybe less.


Nooo I don't think that's it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I think the issue with the crate that Stone is referring to is keeping a GSD in a crate everyday for the rest of the dogs life. A crate should be a training tool and a stepping stone so to speak. Yes there will be some dogs that might always require it, but I think the majority of them do just fine after a year or two., maybe less.


Thank you. That's absolutely correct.Summer is the 9th and probably last dog I will own. I have never used crates (except a kennel to transport), nor have I personally ever met anyone that crates their dogs all day and again at night. There have always been other viable alternatives that give the dog more room to move around. 

My thoughts on crating are only for those who abuse the tool. If you have no concept of what crate abuse is, please do some research on it. I think and hope that this is done by a very small minority of owners, but there is a fear that many do it because either they don't know how to train for freedom or they just don't care to take the time. I think part of the problem is that in the past, you didn't see a lot of larger breed dog ownership in homes that could not accommodate their needs, such as a safe secure fenced yard and a room or regular outdoor dog kennel that could be made safe for the dog to spend time in if necessary.

IMO a common sense approach to considering ownership of a larger breed active dog and sometimes making the decision not to get one because conditions are not right is best.

It seems that now, bringing a GSD to live in a studio apt and being away all day and then crating them again all night every night year after year is a perfectly acceptable practice. To me, that is crate abuse. These are the people that I hope will reconsider the quality of life they are providing for their dog. 

For those who feel their dogs love to spend endless hours in their crates - are you sure you aren't just witnessing a "learned helplessness" or "Stockholm" behavior?

It's amazing how far we have come from small cages in our Zoo's. I hate to see the opposite happening to our best friends. Sweden's law against crating may be extreme, I like Germany's (minimum size requirement a little over 10X15 foot space).


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you. That's absolutely correct.Summer is the 9th and probably last dog I will own. I have never used crates (except a kennel to transport), nor have I personally ever met anyone that crates their dogs all day and again at night. There have always been other viable alternatives that give the dog more room to move around.
> 
> My thoughts on crating are only for those who abuse the tool. If you have no concept of what crate abuse is, please do some research on it. I think and hope that this is done by a very small minority of owners, but there is a fear that many do it because either they don't know how to train for freedom or they just don't care to take the time. I think part of the problem is that in the past, you didn't see a lot of larger breed dog ownership in homes that could not accommodate their needs, such as a safe secure fenced yard and a room or regular outdoor dog kennel that could be made safe for the dog to spend time in if necessary.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone here would disagree that you should not abuse the crate tool.. I think it is the way that you presented it by singling out a time frame that you deemed as absurd. Certainly there are plenty of us on here that have extended past beyond the time frame you happened to come up with and you didn't give an explanation as why you felt this way. THIS is a much better way to state your opinion and actually have people understand and side with what you have said.. because this makes sense. No one on here believes in abuse of the crate.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

MamaofLEO said:


> As Dalton (Patrick Swayze), in the famed cinematic delight, "Roadhouse", stated: "opinions vary."


That's a good movie.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> I don't think anyone here would disagree that you should not abuse the crate tool.. I think it is the way that you presented it by singling out a time frame that you deemed as absurd. Certainly there are plenty of us on here that have extended past beyond the time frame you happened to come up with and you didn't give an explanation as why you felt this way. THIS is a much better way to state your opinion and actually have people understand and side with what you have said.. because this makes sense. No one on here believes in abuse of the crate.


Last fall, when I originally posted on this topic. I did in detail explain that my post was strictly based on the results of the poll. Whoever posted the poll chose the time frame parameters, not me. I layed out the scenario that some people crate their dogs all day and then all night too and not as a temporary situation, but as a solution that allows them to own these dogs in an environment that is ill suited for them, or allows them to neglect the training required to improve their dog's quality of life. Many here reacted to my post as if I were personally condemning each and every one of them. Some responses were simply, "have nice stuff and I don't want it ruined". Many were simply very hostile. I found myself becoming hostile in my posts as well.

I could not understand how so many seemingly excellent GSD owners could condone such treatment. I had a discussion with a trainer here a few days ago on the topic, that perhaps it would help if training for house freedom could be provided as it is for all the other training available. Initially, I interpreted his remarks to read that it can't be done without moving a personal dog trainer into your home for an extended length of time. Then his comments changed to "most owners" would not commit and stick with the training instructions necessary to make this happen. 

As an alternative to the "great crate war" discussions. I would love to see some discussions on training for freedom to help people to set that tool aside when it is no longer needed and help them learn how to wean themselves away from it if it's possible that their dog may be ready willing and able to learn house manners. There will always be exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the norm. 

If someone posted to this venue right now for this kind of help, what do you think would happen? Another blow up probably. Discussing crates here is like discussing religion or politics.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Last fall, when I originally posted on this topic. I did in detail explain that my post was strictly based on the results of the poll. Whoever posted the poll chose the time frame parameters, not me. I layed out the scenario that some people crate their dogs all day and then all night too and not as a temporary situation, but as a solution that allows them to own these dogs in an environment that is ill suited for them, or allows them to neglect the training required to improve their dog's quality of life. Many here reacted to my post as if I were personally condemning each and every one of them. Some responses were simply, "have nice stuff and I don't want it ruined". Many were simply very hostile. I found myself becoming hostile in my posts as well.
> 
> I could not understand how so many seemingly excellent GSD owners could condone such treatment. I had a discussion with a trainer here a few days ago on the topic, that perhaps it would help if training for house freedom could be provided as it is for all the other training available. Initially, I interpreted his remarks to read that it can't be done without moving a personal dog trainer into your home for an extended length of time. Then his comments changed to "most owners" would not commit and stick with the training instructions necessary to make this happen.
> 
> ...


It's difficult to have a calm, rational discussion with people who claim others should be shot for their choices. I'm just sayin'.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you're going to actually work a dog or participate in a sport, then yes - it will need to be crated. Doesn't matter if it's IPO, or nosework, or agility, or barn hunt, or dock diving, or flyball. When I'm at a flyball tournament, Halo spends more time over the course of the weekend in her crate than out of it. WAY more.
> 
> I don't crate during the day, but I do have an enclosure in the garage where the dogs go when we're gone, and they sleep in their crates at night. Keefer would be fine loose in the house, and probably Halo too, but it's not worth the risk for me when I have an easy solution that the dogs are perfectly fine with. Halo is our first working line shepherd, and while she's not the most destructive dog we've ever had, the worse ones outgrew it by a year or two and she never really did. Smart, drivey dogs can be more challenging in many ways, and she certainly has been!


My comment was regarding on a daily basis....yes, most every dog which attends public venues such as you mentioned will need to be crated most likely....even nonworking lines at conformation shows have to be crated most always. 

However, if Blitzkrieg is suggesting that a working lines GSD HAS to be crated while the owner is away..1.) I'd say that is bunch of baloney 2.) If true, I'd never contemplate getting one because ...well...it's obvious.

The " great crate debate " is a powder keg but when someone newer asks the question and wants "advice"...are people supposed to lie about how they confine their dogs in their absence??? I would hope not, I know I sure don't. Everyone rationalizes their choice as to whether they crate or not ( daily basis ). And as I have said in the past, I really don't care one way or another what others choose to do regarding this subject, I only care what I do with my dogs.

One thing which I did find of interest when this topic had been addressed numerous times is : I had no idea so many people crate their dogs on a daily basis. I never knew I might be in the minority since I don't use a crate but I guess I am but that's okay.


SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Seems that people who own, train and work /worked numerous dogs use crates..interesting. lol


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Seems that people who own, train and work /worked numerous dogs use crates..interesting. lol


I don't, I use them though. I think they are handy things to have around, my dogs will spend hours in there crates doors open -


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Only one of my dogs needs to be crated. She's a medium dog in an XXL airline crate, so for her it's more like a pen. The other is free in the house. Many people eventually give their dogs freedom. Some dogs can't ever be trusted (I have one who I may never trust loose, a very high drive dog)- so to say that crating her while I'm at work is abuse is incredible asinine.

My dog is crated for 8 hours while I'm at work. Every single waking hour that I'm not at work is spent doing SOMETHING- hiking, biking, training, playing. She sleeps the whole time she's in her crate because we train for a solid hour before I go to work and go for a long walk. 

You've repeatedly said that ANYONE who crates their dog while they work is abusing their dog. Just because a dog ISN'T crated doesn't mean their needs are being met. You talk about the needs of large breed active dogs, and chastise others, and yet you don't meet your own dog's needs in terms of activity and stimulation and now you're seeing behavioral consequences. You are in zero position to make such broad stroke judgements.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Seems that people who own, train and work /worked numerous dogs use crates..interesting. lol


Therefore, everyone should.......geeezzzzz...get over it...do as you choose, nobody cares whether you do or don't or what you rationalization is...just as nobody cares what I do regarding this personal choice. The only opinion I would be curious to hear from you regarding this, is... if you honestly believe that a working dog HAS to be crated in your absence and cannot be left alone in the house on a daily basis....it's a simple question. 


SuperG


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Last fall, when I originally posted on this topic. I did in detail explain that my post was strictly based on the results of the poll. Whoever posted the poll chose the time frame parameters, not me. I layed out the scenario that some people crate their dogs all day and then all night too and not as a temporary situation, but as a solution that allows them to own these dogs in an environment that is ill suited for them, or allows them to neglect the training required to improve their dog's quality of life. Many here reacted to my post as if I were personally condemning each and every one of them. Some responses were simply, "have nice stuff and I don't want it ruined". Many were simply very hostile. I found myself becoming hostile in my posts as well.
> 
> I could not understand how so many seemingly excellent GSD owners could condone such treatment. I had a discussion with a trainer here a few days ago on the topic, that perhaps it would help if training for house freedom could be provided as it is for all the other training available. Initially, I interpreted his remarks to read that it can't be done without moving a personal dog trainer into your home for an extended length of time. Then his comments changed to "most owners" would not commit and stick with the training instructions necessary to make this happen.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest deal was generalizing it to ANYONE who crates their dog for this amount of time (randomly chosen btw) is what got so heated. It isn't that EVERYONE wants to keep their dog crated and not train house manners it's that SOME do crate with no intention of ever allowing them to have freedom.. and some frankly cannot. 

I digress.. this is going to continue to go around in circles. I respect our opinion,specifically about not agreeing with a long amount of time in a crate (forever) and even can agree with it for the most part (abuse with a crate).. and I would hope you respect the rest of ours.. as many of us have wonderful dogs, working and not, who are thriving with this lifestyle. I do not, however appreciate the sweeping generalization and rude comment of people being shot for such an act. That is all.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> It isn't that EVERYONE wants to keep their dog crated and not train house manners it's that SOME do crate with no intention of ever allowing them to have freedom.. and some frankly cannot.


This makes sense.....

As far as being shot....I heard there was this lady who was so so cantankerous she shot a man just for snoring in his sleep....


Superg


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dogs are crate trained, two can be left out alone, no problem...my 5 month old puppy has proved himself to be out at night. I personally would not want to crate him for 8 hours all day when I'm working then again another 8 while we sleep. 
I want my dogs to be out in the house and enjoy their world, if they prove they are safe to do so. If not, then crate it is. 
I never leave them in the fenced back yard unattended however....too much freedom is a bad thing


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Therefore, everyone should.......geeezzzzz...get over it...do as you choose, nobody cares whether you do or don't or what you rationalization is...just as nobody cares what I do regarding this personal choice. The only opinion I would be curious to hear from you regarding this, is... if you honestly believe that a working dog HAS to be crated in your absence and cannot be left alone in the house on a daily basis....it's a simple question.
> 
> 
> SuperG



I thought my answer was simple enough.. Read back, or you can pay me for a consultation and I will help you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So a high energy working dog with high drive doesn't feel like going bonkers contained in a crate for 8-10 hours day after day after day? I would think this might be why they can be destructive. I have noticed that once a dog earns their freedom it takes about a week for them to settle and understand. That first week can be rough and most likely there will be some destruction, but like anything else it's about getting over that hump...,


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I thought my answer was simple enough.. Read back, or you can pay me for a consultation and I will help you.


Your answer is appreciated....it's refreshing to know if I should decide to get a working lines dog I can enjoy the potential of allowing it full range of the house in my absence.....given the effort and training.


SuperG


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

My 2 cents for what it's worth: I personally do not crate my dog. I think the idea of crating a dog for an 8 hour workday sounds sad, and terrible especially if they are also crated at night to sleep....That's a large percentage of their lives in a crate!

*HOWEVER* if I look at it objectively... (anthropomorphic ness and personal feelings not taken into account lol) My dog (who is high energy, gets a ton of exercise) pretty much just sleeps the entire time I'm gone whenever I leave him home. He's free in the house, but there's really nothing fun for him to do at home by himself. At night, he also sleeps the whole time. So honestly I don't think it would affect his quality of life much whether he is asleep in a crate or asleep loose in the house. The important thing is that you spend quality time with your dog every day fulfilling his drives and exercise needs. If my dog gets some good hours of quality, mentally and physically exhausting fun time... He is a tired dog the rest of the day. Even if I'm at home with him, if he gets enough playtime and training, he naps a lot the rest of the day.
So as much as the one side of me really hates the idea of crating for that many hours, for a dog, it's probably not much different from being alone and loose in the house....


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

CaliGSD3 said:


> My 2 cents for what it's worth: I personally do not crate my dog. I think the idea of crating a dog for an 8 hour workday sounds sad, and terrible especially if they are also crated at night to sleep....That's a large percentage of their lives in a crate!
> 
> *HOWEVER* if I look at it objectively... (anthropomorphic ness and personal feelings not taken into account lol) My dog (who is high energy, gets a ton of exercise) pretty much just sleeps the entire time I'm gone whenever I leave him home. He's free in the house, but there's really nothing fun for him to do at home by himself. At night, he also sleeps the whole time. So honestly I don't think it would affect his quality of life much whether he is asleep in his crate or asleep loose in the house. The important thing is that you spend quality time with your dog every day fulfilling his drives and exercise needs. If my dog gets some good hours of quality, mentally and physically exhausting fun time... He is a tired dog the rest of the day. Even if I'm at home with him, if he gets enough playtime and training, he naps a lot the rest of the day.
> So as much as the one side of me really hates the idea of crating for that many hours, for a dog, it's probably not much different from being alone and loose in the house....


Seems like an honest evaluation.....the " If my dog gets some good hours of quality, mentally and physically exhausting fun time... " seems to be the key to the situation to make all proper.


SuperG


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

For what it's worth, our pit has free reign of the house now, has for several years. When she was younger and learning house manners, it was rough, for sure. Our puppy is only crated when he either needs to be forced to take a nap, or I cannot supervise him. I know that I'm fortunate in that I work from home and don't have to crate him for many hours during the day. But I, as well as many others, it seems, don't see a problem with crating a dog during the day if you cannot yet trust them in the house. 

I have a serious question for those of you against leaving a dog in a crate for several hours... What do you do if you have a dog that cannot be trusted to not eat things and harm themselves if you have to leave the house for many hours? Just hope for the best? What do you do with puppies?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> My comment was regarding on a daily basis....yes, most every dog which attends public venues such as you mentioned will need to be crated most likely....even nonworking lines at conformation shows have to be crated most always.


I get that, but how would you expect those dogs to be comfortable being crated so much at events if they don't spend much time crated at home?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GypsyGhost said:


> For what it's worth, our pit has free reign of the house now, has for several years. When she was younger and learning house manners, it was rough, for sure. Our puppy is only crated when he either needs to be forced to take a nap, or I cannot supervise him. I know that I'm fortunate in that I work from home and don't have to crate him for many hours during the day. But I, as well as many others, it seems, don't see a problem with crating a dog during the day if you cannot yet trust them in the house.
> 
> I have a serious question for those of you against leaving a dog in a crate for several hours... What do you do if you have a dog that cannot be trusted to not eat things and harm themselves if you have to leave the house for many hours? Just hope for the best? What do you do with puppies?


It depends on the dog. Robyn was done with the crate completely at 7 months, Midnite was about a year, but I got him at 10 months(I needed to be sure about him) and Apollo was never in a crate at night since I got him at about 10 weeks and done completely with the crate at almost 5 months. My oldest was never crate trained and my older golden was under 6 months when he was done. My younger golden has been out of a crate for a while but contained in a room, once he has recovered from surgery im going to see how he does in the house. Batman is in a crate because I'm afraid of a fight breaking out when I'm not home. I think I'm going to try him in a room versus crate. None of mine have been destructive or ate things. They are all potty trained. They do rearrange the house sometimes, Apollo likes carrying the throw pillows around

All of mine know what a crate is and at any given time I can put them in one or they can be in one at the vet without issue. I do think that is important.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> So a high energy working dog with high drive doesn't feel like going bonkers contained in a crate for 8-10 hours day after day after day?


Actually, my drivey working line girl has a much better off switch than my WGSL boy.  Like I said, she spent almost all weekend in a crate at the flyball tournament, and not only did she not go bonkers, she hung out calmly and quietly in a soft crate that she could have easily broken out of if she had wanted to. 

This is what she was doing this afternoon - resting up after doing pretty much nothing all day, lol. Since we were home, she was napping in the house. If we were gone, she'd have been doing exactly the same thing but in the garage pen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually, my drivey working line girl has a much better off switch than my WGSL boy.  Like I said, she spent almost all weekend in a crate at the flyball tournament, and not only did she not go bonkers, she hung out calmly and quietly in a soft crate that she could have easily broken out of if she had wanted to.
> 
> This is what she was doing this afternoon - resting up after doing pretty much nothing all day, lol. Since we were home, she was napping in the house. If we were gone, she'd have been doing exactly the same thing but in the garage pen.


So what would she do if she had free reign in the house when no one is home? She looks super comfy


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

llombardo said:


> So what would she do if she had free reign in the house when no one is home? She looks super comfy


It's Halo, so there's no telling! She could do that, or she could find something to entertain herself.




























There's a reason that one of her nicknames is the Evil Genius, and another is the Goat. :wild:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It's Halo, so there's no telling! She could do that, or she could find something to entertain herself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember that knife picture. I'm sure it wasn't funny when it happened, but ain't it something on what they decide to do? She's looking at you like where is my steak?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks for the response, llombardo! We got Roxy when she was 2 or 3 and she was crated when we weren't home for about a year after we got her. She had SEVERE separation anxiety, though, and would eat all sorts of things if left to her own devices. Once we worked past that issue, I was able to slowly let her have more and more freedom. She is still comfortable using her crate, and sometimes I do find her napping in it. I am curious how people who NEVER crate do it, though. Wouldn't their dogs freak out if they ever needed to be crated? How do they potty train their puppies? So many questions!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GypsyGhost said:


> Thanks for the response, llombardo! We got Roxy when she was 2 or 3 and she was crated when we weren't home for about a year after we got her. She had SEVERE separation anxiety, though, and would eat all sorts of things if left to her own devices. Once we worked past that issue, I was able to slowly let her have more and more freedom. She is still comfortable using her crate, and sometimes I do find her napping in it. I am curious how people who NEVER crate do it, though. Wouldn't their dogs freak out if they ever needed to be crated? How do they potty train their puppies? So many questions!


The crate made potty training Apollo impossible. He peed every time he was in it. He only had a couple accidents by the door out of the crate. I was actually able to completely potty train him by NOT putting him a crate, go figure!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have a separate laundry room off the kitchen. I just blocked that off during the newspaper/potty training era. Vinyl floor - easy to clean/ back door there/easy to dispose of the potty papers. I used lysol to clean but rinsed that off after it set for few minutes with a vinegar/water mixture to remove the chemical from the floor. 

When she was almost 6mos old, the barrier would no longer hold her. She was out a few times when I came home and had disturbed nothing so she earned her freedom then. She did chew right thru an old vacuum cleaner and a surplus computer monitor cords one morning before I got out of bed. They were unplugged and slated for donation but didn't quite make it.

My previous GSD was potty trained the same way. He had two house cats to contend with though but he earned his freedom at about the same age, though he really didn't care for the cats. He stayed in the yard and I had the door to my shop out back for him open with a love seat and old wool blankets to keep him warm. But he was in with me every night and he and the cats put up with each other in the evenings. The cats slept on the bed and he on his rug at the foot of the bed. When he turned 11 he preferred to be in the house while I was at work. He was old, the cats were old and they left each other alone so it all worked out. 

My other dogs back in time were potty trained the same way. Most spending the day in the yard with the garage door open and a comfy place inside. If I knew the weather was going to be rotten all day or in winter, they were happy to stay in the house when we were at work.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I get that, but how would you expect those dogs to be comfortable being crated so much at events if they don't spend much time crated at home?


The same way I expect my dog to be comfortable on leash when she isn't required to be on a lead.....but I appreciate your point.


Superg


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I have multiple dogs, and I operate similar to Lombardo. My dogs can be in crates, for training or during heat cycles, but otherwise, they have free roam. They always had free range at night. For house-training I needed to be attentive. Puppies eliminate at very predictable times if you know what to watch for and their schedules. And it helped to have the example of the older dogs. It wasn't really a big deal. 

As far as crates being cruel, they aren't. Not unless the dog's needs are not being met otherwise. 

And, I have certainly seen crates used abusively, sometimes horribly so. For example I personally have seen high-drive "pet" dogs (malinois) that were crated almost 24/7 and given no outlet for exercise or training because they were so "crazy" outside of the crate. One of my friends adopted a dog that is permanently disfigured because she was basically never outside of a crate growing up. 

Stuff like this happens regularly. I hear a lot about how e-collars can be abusive, but I've never seen them used abusively personally. Not so with crates. Crates do seem to fairly often be used in an abusive way. NOT by the working-dog trainers here on this forum, or by the many dog owners who use a crate when they are gone to keep the dog safe, or at training, or in the car (etc.) but I do see it and I can understand why some people may be so strongly against them. 

Like with almost any other dog-training tool, it all depends on the person using the tool, not the tool alone.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Phew thankfully I only work 4-6 hour shifts so I won't be slated for shooting! 

All of my dogs are crate trained from puppies, they all love their crates and go in willingly. My GSD will open his crate and go in to lay down by himself when I'm cooking or cleaning. Done properly they view it as their den/safe space. It certainly helps them be less stressed if they have to stay overnight at the vets office as well which one of my dogs did when she wasn't crated and ate something she shouldn't have and had to have a 7 grand emergency surgery. I'd rather my dogs be crated and be SAFE then have that one time where something goes horribly wrong. My GSD is safe as far as he isn't destructive BUT he has very high prey drive and I will not leave him loose all day to harass my cats... My house is set up in such a way that's it's diifcult to separate them out, it's a very open plan.

I will agree however that it is wrong to crate a dog for extended hours and not provide enough mental and physical stimulation. If the dogs needs are being met then I don't see the difference between being crated and lazing around the house all day sleeping.


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