# two puppies



## mom0f3GSD (Jul 10, 2013)

Okay so we have a major dilemma in my house. I have one GSD who is 11 years old. We have finally decided that it was time to bring another dog into the house and when we went to the breeders she has two girl pups left. We found out that one of the girls has a heart murmur and might need surgery. She was going to send the heart murmur dog to the shelter and being the dog lover that I am we ended up with both. Ive done some reading about having littermates now I'm terrified. I can financially support all of the heart puppies needs and I want some tips about having two pups at once. PLEASE HELP!!!!!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I wish you good luck, female/female aggression can be terrible, I have witnessed it several times now. Some people have no issues with multiple females but some have horrible fights. I personally would rehome one of them. I would never trust them to be alone together. Once they fight they tend to not forget and always want to fight.


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## AngVi (Dec 22, 2012)

Aww that's so sweet you took the sick puppy. Not only will you have your hands full with two but one being sick  poor little thing.
I have to pups - girl is 14 months, the boy is 9 months. Each came home at 7 weeks from different breeders. 
It was definitely overwhelming in the beginning . Two is much more than twice the work 
But is So So very rewarding! . 
They will learn your schedule for everything, when they go out to potty try putting only one on leash that way you'll be sure they both do their business on each trip outside, and not just running around playing. 
Mine do everything together it is so sweet, I love watching them play.
I do train them apart sometimes.
At least the weather is nice, my boy came home in December and it was freezing out 
Enjoy your Puppies and try to ave fun!



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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd rehome one while she's still young. I'm sure your breeder isn't an option. Try to get in contact with a German Shepherd rescue.

How bad is the murmur? Some puppies just grow out of them.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Well, this "breeder" certainly is a piece of work. I do hope the flat out _gave_ you the puppy they were planning on dumping. I'd definitely consider turning one of the ups over to a rescue. One pup is a handful to raise. Two pups...


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## mom0f3GSD (Jul 10, 2013)

Thank you for all your replies. I don't think I want to rehome one. We already fell in love and I couldn't bear giving one up at this point the murmur isn't terrible it could close on its own (hopefully it will). She also did give us the pup. I don't know about the fighting or not because the one girl is SO submissive and they are both very even tempered. I have my significant other to help me train. After we train though where do we go from there? Should they still be separated? And if so how much?


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## mom0f3GSD (Jul 10, 2013)

I previously contacted some other rescues around but the surgery if needed is expensive and they probably wouldn't give it to her. She has the PDA murmur so if it doesn't close on its own and goes untreated she will eventually die.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

The issues between females (if you are going to have them) likely won't show until they are both mature at around 1.5 -2 years old. It could be sooner or later or never. At 8 weeks (hopefully they were 8 weeks when you got them), their personalities aren't completely formed. 

If you are set on keeping both then you need to read what you can about raising two puppies (esp female litter mates) at once. They need to be able to develop their own personalities and learn to experience the world on their own and not rely on each other.

Best of luck.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mom0f3GSD said:


> Thank you for all your replies. I don't think I want to rehome one. We already fell in love and I couldn't bear giving one up at this point the murmur isn't terrible it could close on its own (hopefully it will). She also did give us the pup. I don't know about the fighting or not because the one girl is SO submissive and they are both very even tempered. I have my significant other to help me train. After we train though where do we go from there? Should they still be separated? And if so how much?


I have two female liter mates. They will be 3 on the 15th and so far we've had no trouble with fighting. They get along very well, but from what I've read, they might be the exception to the rule. We trained ours separately in the beginning, but later, we did take some classes together. After you "train through" keep looking at other classes that may interest you and that your pup may do well with and keep going! I think that may be why ours do so well together is we keep them fairly busy, mostly games/playing, but training to, it really never ends.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What a horrible breeder. I hope both of your pups are healthy otherwise. She sounds like a red flag to me for dumping a sickly puppy and making it someone else's problem. 
Adopting two litter sisters is the riskiest combination; besides the enormous task (if you want to do it right) of raising two pups you have a good chance of ending up having to give up one, once they reach adolescence. Once they start fighting, you cannot keep them together.
Hope it works out for you.
I would take them to different classes so they are not together in one class. I have had clients with litter mates in one class and they couldn't even think straight (the dogs). They only were focused on each other.
Also I would let them sleep in separate crates, at separate sites in the house once fully crate trained so they become less dependent on each other and also limit their play time together so they will focus on you more.
And socialization often separated to increase their confidence of standing on their own.


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## Roemly's Mama (Apr 3, 2013)

Good for you! My boy "had" a heart murmur when he was born and he is now as good as new. It got progressively better as he grew and now at 8 months he is clear of it. Can't help you with the females. I know of someone that has a mother and two daughters but they are from different litters. They all get along fine though in a pack. I would guess they will sort it out.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Roemly's Mama said:


> I would guess they will sort it out.


This goes more for males than for females. if females start to "sort it out" it isn't pretty. Remember middle school?​


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> What a horrible breeder. I hope both of your pups are healthy otherwise. She sounds like a red flag to me for dumping a sickly puppy and making it someone else's problem.
> Adopting two litter sisters is the riskiest combination; besides the enormous task (if you want to do it right) of raising two pups you have a good chance of ending up having to give up one, once they reach adolescence. Once they start fighting, you cannot keep them together.
> Hope it works out for you.
> I would take them to different classes so they are not together in one class. I have had clients with litter mates in one class and they couldn't even think straight (the dogs). They only were focused on each other.
> ...


I 100% agree with this comment


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Isn't there a saying along the lines of "Dogs fight for breeding rights. Bitches fight for breathing right."?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

good luck. having one pup is hard enough for most people. keep
your nose to the grind. it can be done and you probably can do it,
right, you can do it, you can do it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LeoRose said:


> Isn't there a saying along the lines of "Dogs fight for breeding rights. Bitches fight for breathing right."?


Another one: "Males fight for status and females fight to drive the weakest out."
It's all about the breeding rights. They don't know about spaying, loving each other or sharing. We often forget that they are dogs; animals with animal instincts.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

LeoRose said:


> Isn't there a saying along the lines of "Dogs fight for breeding rights. Bitches fight for breathing right."?


This. 
My uncle had two sisters from 8 weeks when I was younger. They LOVED each other, inseparable. One day when they were about 5-6, they just decided to tear into each other. He tried to reintroduce them a few times, but it was never successful so he kept them separated. He went out of town when they were 9, and left them with a petsitter and specific instructions NOT to allow them to interact AT ALL. Well. The woman didn't listen, let them loose together. They fought until one was dead and the other died soon after from the extremity of her wounds. 
On the other hand, he had another pair of siblings who never had any issues and died peacefully in their sleeps at a ripe old age. It all just depends.
Personally, I am very concerned about bitch-fighting. I had intended on a male, and ended up with Shoba. Now she is 6 months and I have to watch the girls (with calm energy), because Koda is beginning to be testy with her. Shoba was spayed a few weeks ago (I'm against early spay but she had a hernia that was getting worse so we got it over with), and would simply be a much easier girl to rehome if they ever got into a fight and it became necessary. Does that mean I love her less? Definitely not. I adore this crazy pooch every bit as much as Koda. But, Shoba has a much easier temperament for home transfer and I feel that THEY have to come first. Better for my feelings to be hurt than to have them constantly fighting and hurting each other.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LeoRose said:


> *Well, this "breeder" certainly is a piece of work*. I do hope the flat out _gave_ you the puppy* they were planning on dumping*.


I agree....wow. Great responsible breeder. I would not even give them any $ whatsoever. Sad for that puppy they couldn't stand by and do the right thing for.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

If you want to keep them both, don't let them spend too much time together. They need to bond with you and not one another. Maybe your significant other can be responsible for one and you the other. Let them bond with each of you. Find a good trainer to help you. Really work and train them well.
It can work with two females, but if you find that they just can't get along you can rehome a well trained GSD. I hope the heart problems fix themselves.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> Isn't there a saying along the lines of "Dogs fight for breeding rights. Bitches fight for breathing right."?


Ha! I'd never heard this one before but I love it.

OP: this article may be helpful. Problems Associated With Adopting Two Puppies at the Same Time - Whole Dog Journal Article (hopefully it's not paywalled, I never can tell with WDJ).

Even though you've decided to keep these two, read through the first page anyway because if you know what the common problems are, you'll be able to keep an eye out for them and forestall them at the first sign of trouble.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

If you are going to raise two dogs together from puppyhood, I would do as much separately and individually with them as you can. You won't know until later if they will be a challenge or not. Have them sleep separately in their own crate, even if the two crates are side by side. Have them eat separately and take them to training classes and socialization opportunities separately. By doing so, you will help them develop their individual personalities and identities and they won't be so bonded to one another. They can certainly have play time together, however, give them lots of time to become individuals rather than "sisters". 

In one of my recent puppy training classes, one owner brought two littermates that he and his wife got at the same time following the passing of their old GSD. The two puppies (girls) could not even stand to be four feet apart from one another for the class. They screamed as though they were being tortured. The owner ended up dropping out and wanted no part of anything that any of us (as trainers) tried to help him with. 

This forum/board is a great place for help, comfort, advice, etc.


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## hassan (Jul 11, 2013)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Careful with the two girls if you keep them both. I know many have already said this, but that's because it is truly very very serious. Within our breed, we have some intense same sex aggression. Girls will literally fight to the death.

I have two girls. It's very difficult with them. We crate and rotate, and after a LOT of work they can now *sometimes* be out together as long as I watch their every movement and body language... and no toys or food are out. If I allow rough play, there will be a fight.... and they WILL kill each other. I'm extremely lucky to even have this much freedom with them. I know many others who can't even be within the same room. None of this happened right away either. It usually happens around 2yrs old, but it can happen at any time. Some females are fine all their life with each other... then all of a sudden at 9yrs old... they have to be separated. One thing to remember.... females do NOT forget. Once something happens and they hate each other... it's the final word. It may never happen, and that's great.... but if it does, be prepared to either rehome or make a much more time consuming and difficult schedule of "crate and rotate". I'd also make sure this process is 100% solid and understood completely, because 1 oops can cost 1 or both their lives. We take this very very seriously within our home. 

You definitely just need to understand the risks and possible outcomes.... then make your decision. In the end, it is yours to make... just make sure it's a knowledgeable decision that takes all lives into consideration. Yours, and both the pups. 

Two pups together are extremely difficult on their own, but adding an aggression problem on top of that.... eek. I agree with the others.... do things separate with them. Just like human twins... they need to learn and become their own minds. This will be easier for you and them.

Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## ten3zro (Jul 13, 2013)

mom0f3GSD said:


> Thank you for all your replies. I don't think I want to rehome one. We already fell in love and I couldn't bear giving one up at this point the murmur isn't terrible it could close on its own (hopefully it will). She also did give us the pup. I don't know about the fighting or not because the one girl is SO submissive and they are both very even tempered. I have my significant other to help me train. After we train though where do we go from there? Should they still be separated? And if so how much?


I know the thought of giving one up is hard to think about, but it's going to be a lot harder a few years down the line when you have a serious problem. I admire your wanting to give both a home, but the unselfish thing to do is to find one of them a new home. Raising two female puppies is going to be extremely difficult and you are very likely going to have a lot of problems down the road unless you're committed to keeping them separated. Sorry, my two cents. I raised two pups at the same time (different sexes) and it really is a ton of work to do correctly.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I know it seems unbearably difficult to rehome one now, but how hard will it be in one, two, three years, when you have an even deeper bond, and you have to rehome for risk of one killing the other? There is a CHANCE that they can be fine, but when people say that when bitches fight it's scary, they're not kidding-- they WILL try and kill each other, and if it starts, it will definitely not ever stop. Management will be a full time job, and the quality of life for both dogs will suffer.

I consider myself fairly experienced and it's still not a risk I would want to take.


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## mom0f3GSD (Jul 10, 2013)

Bitch fighting is one of my biggest fears. I have an awesome trainer lined up that I plan on seeing bi-weekly for a very long time. My significant other and I have planned on keeping them VERY separated. Lucky for us we work from home so they will not be left alone for 8+ hours every day and will be heavily monitored. We plan on leaving one in our four seasons room and one in the back hall when we are away. The house is already divided in two. We really hope we can do this and will do all of it by the book. We really appreciate your support and tips and opinions. Hopefully we can make these pups have great lives.


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

What about when they are spayed? I mean so far I have a 13 week old and an 11 month old... Both GSD females... The older one was just spayed... They get along great and inseparable now... I've had two males (both neutered) and were fine...???? It could work right? You guys are even freaking me out!









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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

Both of mine are rescues 


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kira4589 said:


> What about when they are spayed? I mean so far I have a 13 week old and an 11 month old... Both GSD females... The older one was just spayed... They get along great and inseparable now... I've had two males (both neutered) and were fine...???? It could work right? You guys are even freaking me out!
> View attachment 90818
> 
> 
> ...


I think its more about the age difference in the two females. Right now you have an older established one, the younger one will respect that. When you get them closer in age, that could be a bigger problem. Of course the younger one now could try to challenge the older female, but I'm not sure how likely that is.


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

It's quite comical when she tries... But the older one either will grab her scruff and hold her there or walk away from the puppy.. The little one is sorta a drama queen... Nobody gets snippy... (Except when the little one needs a nap) It's kinda nice! I've never seen the older one even raise a lip at the puppy.. But everyone's posts kinda freaked me out so I had to ask!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

llombardo said:


> Of course the younger one now could try to challenge the older female, but I'm not sure how likely that is.


In my experience, dealing with people who are in the middle of situations like this, it is *very *likely. I often hear people say that the two girls got along so well ("It was like the older one just knew the younger one needed a Mommy, that is how well they got along") that they stopped really monitoring interactions ("It was so obvious that they loved each other") and then the younger girl hits about 2 or 3 years and all **** breaks loose. 
Sheilah


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

Lol I monitor my girls like a hawk, never left alone without someone watching. I correct the puppies behaviors when she gets snippy... We do lots of other socializing outside of the home as well. Puppy classes and puppy socials, places where there are lots of people and/or other dogs around. I keep in contact with a breeder I trust and I have a few trainers I talk to in case I have questions. Everyone who has watched them interact says everything looks good so far.... The people I have talked to also say as long as we do things like that (instead of being inside and always dealing with each other) they should be fine... This is from trainers and the breeder... Lol my breeder tells me how she has 6 females and they all get along  there has GOTTA be hope for her two little puppies... It's just lots of monitoring and work. But if they think they can do it.. And get in touch with the right trainers.. I think anything is possible.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

of course everything is good "so far" it always is. What people are saying is that your older dog is ony 11months old. She's still a baby herself. The little pup is an infant. 
It really doesn't matter a lot how many trainers you work with or how much you socialize/monitor them. If they decide that they don't like each other, then they aren't going to like each other. 
Some will be fine as long as there is always someone there to supervise. Others will take a death vendetta against the other dog and they can never be together period.
And then you have dogs that you could leave them alone together forever and never have a problem. It just depends on the personality of the dogs involved. And if those personalities clash, there isn't anything that you can do except manage the problem or rehome one of the dogs.


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

:/ that's kinda depressing really... 


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I think its more about the age difference in the two females. Right now you have an older established one, the younger one will respect that. When you get them closer in age, that could be a bigger problem. Of course the younger one now could try to challenge the older female, but I'm not sure how likely that is.



Age doesn't matter from what I've experienced. I've seen two adults introduced together and end up trying to kill each other as well. I've seen a puppy introduced into a house with an adult female.... once the pup was matured, the fighting started. My current bitch problem is with a pup I got at 9 weeks old, and the other female was almost 2. They were great until Zira reached 2yrs old.... she just went nuts. Not just on the pup, but also all other females. She's now reactive and can't be trusted with other bitches. With males she's perfectly fine. Spaying doesn't do anything either. Zira was emergency spayed at 1yrs old. One of the girls she got into a fight with was spayed at the pound probably around 3 months old. I've seen some where both are spayed. It's not a hormone thing... for males it usually is, but not with females. Luckily, we expected this and were already set up for crate and rotate. Both girls are also really good with their crates, so it's not an issue here for us... just a lot more work and sometimes stressful.

Bottom line, if you have more than 1 female in the house, be super careful and NEVER leave them alone together... not even for a few minutes. If you have 1 or both under 2yrs old..... be prepared, and make sure you're set up for separation if that turns out to be the case. Just because things are all fine and dandy right now (90% of the time they are for a while. It really can catch you off guard), doesn't mean you're in the clear.

OP, I'm super glad you are getting set up properly (in the house, their care, and with the trainer) and taking all precautions. Most people do not take this seriously, and that's how dogs get killed and their owners get injured. I applaud you for helping both the pups out. I wish you the best of luck with them! I truly hope it turns out ok for you guys.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Age doesn't matter from what I've experienced. I've seen two adults introduced together and end up trying to kill each other as well. I've seen a puppy introduced into a house with an adult female.... once the pup was matured, the fighting started. My current bitch problem is with a pup I got at 9 weeks old, and the other female was almost 2.



I agree that a two year age difference would still be considered an issue. I think a 3, 4, 5,6, and maybe even 7 years could be an issue. I do believe that introducing two adults that are close in age can be an issue. I don't think its always an issue, it depends on the temperaments of the dogs involved. Of course its always safest to make sure that they are all safe, that I don't disagree with.


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

Then what's the deal with Males? Neutered ones anyway? I haven't really been around into growing when they are over the age of 1. I grew up always having more then one male... I have plenty of friends that have more then one male... Granted alot of the time it's different breeds... Any ideas why males get along better then females?



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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Because the males fight for breeding rights, not breathing rights. 
And males tend to get over it once the fight is over.


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## Kira4589 (Jun 21, 2013)

Lol men >.> 


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

People are no different. Knew two boys in high school. One was always annoying, taunting the other until finally he had enough and beat him up. That was the end of that. My daughter and her"friends" in middle school: it went on and on until they all went to college and parted ways.
Men are just easier to get along with. In the end we are all one species.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Honestly, if you really are set on keeping both pups, then I say go for it. The fighting sounds pretty serious, and since you are aware of what CAN happen, just take all the precautions that you can. I would also say, be prepared for the worst and have a plan of action in case something were to happen in the future. If that is something you are willing to risk, then that is okay, but just be ready to possibly have to part with one of them in the future. Because if you really do want to keep both dogs, there IS a chance they will be okay together, and it would be a shame if you didn't keep them like you really wanted. I guess if I really had my heart set on them, I wouldn't jump to assuming they are going to turn out to be fighters. Just be aware that someday you may have to put your feelings aside for their well being, and just enjoy them until/if that happens!


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## ten3zro (Jul 13, 2013)

PupperLove said:


> Honestly, if you really are set on keeping both pups, then I say go for it. The fighting sounds pretty serious, and since you are aware of what CAN happen, just take all the precautions that you can. I would also say, be prepared for the worst and have a plan of action in case something were to happen in the future. If that is something you are willing to risk, then that is okay, but just be ready to possibly have to part with one of them in the future. Because if you really do want to keep both dogs, there IS a chance they will be okay together, and it would be a shame if you didn't keep them like you really wanted. I guess if I really had my heart set on them, I wouldn't jump to assuming they are going to turn out to be fighters. Just be aware that someday you may have to put your feelings aside for their well being, and just enjoy them until/if that happens!


 
I'm going to respectfully disagree, because what this does is it put the owner's desire to have the 2nd dog ahead of what we know is best for these two. They will have to be separated forever, or one will need a new home. To me, the unselfish thing to do is recognize that this is a bad situation and find a great home for the second one where she can live a happy life, not one where she's either segregated or constantly at war. It's like someone living in a tiny apartment getting 4 big dogs because they want them and like them...great, but it's not fair to the dogs. My 2 cents.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Some dogs fit and others don't. My parents had a male dog and two females, the male was the oldest and there was a two year age gap between the females. The females bonded strongly right away and were inseparable until the youngest female had to be put down due to health problems two years ago at the age of 8. They never once had a fight and the remaining female took the death very hard and has never been the same since.

I don't recommend same sex pairing as a rule, but it can be broken in the right circumstances without consequences.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I brought home two female litter mates once and never had the first problem out of them. I also spayed them both at 5 months old. I enjoyed having the two of them together for their entire lives. They were very close to each other. The only hard part was the double expenses and when they were old they were old together.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Kind of strange how our dogs closest relative the wolf does not seem to have a female on female aggression issue. I'm sure problem do arise sometimes, but for the most part they are a completely cohesive unit.


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## redandgold (Jul 2, 2013)

Is it honestly inevitable that females are going to attack each other? I see people on Facebook who have packs of multiple GSDs and none report the females having fights. 

Sorry to be dumb, but I'd definitely like more than one GSD at some point so I thought I should ask.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

redandgold said:


> Is it honestly inevitable that females are going to attack each other? I see people on Facebook who have packs of multiple GSDs and none report the females having fights.
> 
> Sorry to be dumb, but I'd definitely like more than one GSD at some point so I thought I should ask.


Nothing is inevitable except death and taxes.
A dominate and a submissive female can happily coexist. A male and a female can coexist. Two males who are both dominant will fight but generally one will "win"and that is the end of the matter. Two female, on the other hand, will be more likely to hold a grudge and never be able to be trusted together, especially not without direct supervision. Not even while you step out of the room to fill your coffee cup.
So, the best combos are male and female. Then a dominate and a submissive male. Then a dominant and submissive female unless the head girl decides she doesn't like the second dog.

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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> So, the best combos are male and female. Then a dominate and a submissive male. Then a dominant and submissive female unless the head girl decides she doesn't like the second dog.


I agree with this. Exceptions always exist...my dad has two females with no fights. I had two males with no fights for the entire eight years they lived with each other. My sister has a male/female that have fought.

But I think you stack the odds in your favor when you don't get two females. As a child, we adopted two female Siberian Husky siblings. They didn't fight until age four. And, as other posters have said, they could never be trusted again. It was a huge pain to separate and rotate...and not really fair to the dogs. But we didn't really know back then what we know now. And there was no Google. LOL

My favorite combo is a dominant male dog and a submissive male dog (with three years in between) which is what I had. I love the momma's boys. Absolute perfection....because a lot of is a dog's temperament, IMO. The risk is too great with two females...which doesn't mean it can't be done. You just have to be prepared for the consequences if things don't go according to plan.

...and I have to say, I'm not sure I would trust the breeder who would sell two female puppies together. Or, frankly, two puppies of any gender together.


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