# Soft stool for over a month now...



## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

When we first got our GSD pup, he has loose stools but he also had Cocci./Hookworm. So the doc. put him on sulfacilicide and flagyl. He was on .7ml flagyl then he doubled in weight so the doc said to give him 1.5ml of it and we've been giving a quarter of a pill of the sulfacilicide for the while time...three times a day. 

She also put him on IAMS low moisture prescription food. He seemed to improve but now today, we missed a dose of the flagyl and he had a complete cow pie of sorts. Water seperated from the stool after about a minute (gross but I found it interesting/odd). 

Now I called the vet tonight and my doc wasn't in but another doc. was happy to give me more flagyl and tell me if it didn't clear up to bring him in. She didn't realize I'd already brought him in 3 times! 

So I'm curious...what is going on with this dog? He has a pattern of a day or two firm and then right back to loose stool (flagyl or not).

Is there any permanent digestive issues dog's get? Could there be something the vet is totally forgetting or missing?

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Maybe others with EPI dogs can chime in but I would have your pup tested for EPI:
http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/epi.html

It's relatively common in certain lines of GSD and is permanent, although it can usually be kept (mostly) under control with medication.

Also I'd look into SIBO:
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/courses_vm546/...erial_overg.htm

Poor guy







I hope you can figure out what's bothering him.


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: phgsdMaybe others with EPI dogs can chime in but I would have your pup tested for EPI:
> http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/epi.html
> 
> It's relatively common in certain lines of GSD and is permanent, although it can usually be kept (mostly) under control with medication.
> ...


Wow!

I really appreciate the information! I'll be sure to mention both to my vet tomorrow.

Thanks again!!!

-Emt1581


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope it's not EPI or SIBO in such a young pup! 

Have you tried cooking a bland diet for your dog? Has your dog been tested for giarddia? That is something that a puppy could get.


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

His fecal sample four days ago was 100% clear/healthy.

I'm not sure if Giarddia is part of what the tests look for but but when I heard the test was negative (compared to last time where he had the hookworm/coccidia) I was happy and figured he just needed to get used to a normal food...and yes, he was on a bland diet for the past 3-4 weeks off and on. In other words, he would have loose stools so we'd give him just boiled chicken/rice. Then they'd firm up and we'd start mixing in pro-plan puppy chicken/rice a little at a time with the bland diet. Then once he was back on 100% pro-plan he'd get loose stools again. This would start the cycle all over again. He was on a bunch of meds. Two that come to mind are the sulfacilicide and flagyl. His last sulf. pill is tomorrow. I've been giving him the flagyl at the request of my vet and another vet at the practice was only too happy to give me more but again, it just seems like a band-aid, not a cure. 

I'm going to mention the two mentioned already (EPI/SIBO) to my vet. She's a good doc. It was a slow/frustrating road to recovery with our chinchilla (had to force feed/hydrate) but she pulled through and is full of piss and vinegar still today! So if this is just a slow recovery (BUT FROM WHAT?!?!?) fine, if not, and it's a life-long thing...I'm not really sure where to go with that. 

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Before you do the very expensive tests for SIBO and EPI, ask your vet if she tested her for giarrdia. There is a dog on here who had off and on diarrhea forever and then finally got tested for giarrdia and it was positive. 

Btw, I've never heard of SIBO in such a young pup so I don't know how likely that would be.


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowBefore you do the very expensive tests for SIBO and EPI, ask your vet if she tested her for giarrdia. There is a dog on here who had off and on diarrhea forever and then finally got tested for giarrdia and it was positive.
> 
> Btw, I've never heard of SIBO in such a young pup so I don't know how likely that would be.


Is Giarddia easy to cure?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Yes it would be and with all of your pups other problems I would not be surprised if he had that too! 

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/giardia.html

I just read the above link and notice that it says to treat with panacur. I believe you already did that, right?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Giardia is not always the easiest to catch. The virus doesn't shed all the time, so one test may be nothing and the next one maybe the one to see the virus shedding. 

I wish Barb E would post. She had several fecal's done on her dog all came back negative, but she had the vet do the Angient Test and bango there was the Giardia. 

Val


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

I'm pretty sure we did. It was a 10 day script. TINY white pills broken in half (if that helps). 

Plus we used some white powder sprinkled on his food 1g a day for three days...come to think of it I think THAT ws the panacur.

So he couldn't really have the giarddia then right?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Dante's the one that had Giardia and poop issues for months on end.
They ran 2 regular Giardia fecals, both came back negative.
They then ran the Giardia ANTIGEN and it came back positive.
He took 2 rounds of antibiotics (they were different, I'm sorry I don't remember what they were), I think one was a week and the other 10 days, before he came back clear.

The other thing I did was go back to feeding 3x a day so that there was no chance I was over taxing his gut - poor Dante had had Giardia for so long by then!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Missed that he had coccidia already!


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

I contacted the vet today and am waiting for a return call. I listed all of the concerns in the message (left with a secretary) in terms of the EPI, SIBO, and the Giarddia ANTIGEN...

So we'll see what she comes back with.

Thanks for the info!!

-Emt1581


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

if everything comes back negative, i'd wonder if a food change is in order.


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

The vet actually called my fiancee and left a message. From the sounds of it roughly translated, it sounds like the vet thinks that the hookworm dammaged his intestines or something along those lines.

We'll see.

-Emt1581


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: emt1581The vet actually called my fiancee and left a message. From the sounds of it roughly translated, it sounds like the vet thinks that the hookworm dammaged his intestines or something along those lines.
> 
> We'll see.
> 
> -Emt1581


I think that Dante's GI Tract was, I hate to use the word damaged 'cause I think that is too strong, but I can't think of the right word - from his Giardia and the GI Block. I honestly think his GI tract really finally healed/matured/became normal last year at 3 years old. 

The things that really helped - Watching fat content, feeding 3x a day, slow slow slow food transitions when changing food.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

When there is damage done to intestines it takes awhile for heal up. The word damage doesn't mean permanent. 

Val


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerWhen there is damage done to intestines it takes awhile for heal up. The word damage doesn't mean permanent.
> 
> Val


Yup you got it!

I thought the same thing. The vet said it could take like a month or so to correct itself but it WILL heal. She also threw out to me, again, that he might have to be on prescribed food for life. I hope that's not so. Then she said cost-wise it's around the same as good quality food. 

Anyways, she said give him a 1/4 cup plain yogurt (antibiotic) and 1.5ml Flagyl 2 times a day and continue on the IAMS low-moisture food w/rice.

She also gave me two cans of wet dog food and told me to mix in a 1/4 can with his food (since he's getting picky and won't eat the IAMS.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Vet's love to push the food that they have in their building on the shelf, they make money from it.

I am going to go against some of the things your Vet told you, you can take my advice for what you feel it is worth.

1. Ditch the yogurt, go to a health store, health food section of the grocery store or the refrigerated section and get some simple Probioitics, just start with Acidophilius. Dairy can be hard on a digestive system. Just thing if you had a virus where you system was wrecked by it, would you want to eat 12 cups (approx, amount considering what you are feeding your pup) of yogurt a day?

2. Give the Probioitics at a different time from the Antibiotics, I try for a minimum of 4 hours. If you give Probioitics (yogurt) and Antibiotics at the same time, the Antibiotics just is to kill bacteria even good bacteria, so it will be all used up by killing the good bacteria in the Probioitic (yogurt).

3. Food, I am partial to a home cooked diet when one of my dogs has a digestive problem. You can use chicken, rice and sweet potato. There are some posts in the Diet section where you will find more ideas for a home cooked diet.

4. Special diet cost, you might spend more for a quality food. I think prescription diets have their place, but I would really doubt if your pup will need it for life.

Just have patients on the digestive problem, slow and steady wins the race. Don't rush to try to get the pup on kibble. In the long run it will set you back farther and take longer to get the pups digestive system healed up.

Now, I know this is the health part of your problems, but I really feel once you get the pups system straightened out you will see a different pup IF you give him some latitude now just because he doesn't feel well. Just think how you would feel if you were sick, your insides just hurt and some HUGE giant was pushing you around and pinning you to the floor, it would make you want to fight..... Right. It wouldn't make you want to try to please this person. 

Time and patients.

Val


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

I see what you're saying. She did say to give the yogurt BEFORE giving the Flagyl (1/2hr. min.) you say 4hrs. I don't see a problem with trying that.

As far as the acidophillus, that's not a bad idea. I will say that when I put it in a bowl he gobbled it up like it was the best thing he's ever tasted! Made him eat his food REAALLLYYY fast when I mixed it in (1tbsp.) just for flavoring. 

I didn't open the ER (or is it EP??) which is the special digestive soft/canned food. I figure if mixing in some of the yogurt will get him to love it...could it hurt?

I'm curious what amount of acidophillus to use (he's a little over 20lbs. right now...and seems to gain a pound a day!!!)?

As far as the food, I paid for it. I figure I'll finish at least this bag. But what do I switch to? This is "low-moisture" stuff.

I've definitely lightened up a bit after what I read between today and yesterday. That's not to say I let him gnaw on whatever he wanted. I just pushed the ice-cubes and made sure to always have a toy to give him instead of crating him so often. Still need to do it when eating/sleeping/etc. just to have SOME peace and for obvious safety reasons.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

With the Acidophilius, start slow at a small portion of that the label would say for an adult. I would think right now you goal would be around 1/4 of an Adult dose.

Eating is good as long as the system doesn't get overloaded, if the yogurt gets him to eat and it isn't upsetting the system then continue, just watch the timing with the Antibioitic.

Yea, you don't want him to run around like a wild child, but when you see he is tired, just deal with the biting and put him in his crate for some down time. Puppies can't talk, but if you start watching patterns and behaviors they communicate that way. When the system gets healed up it will be eaiser to change the bad stuff. Some down time is good. 

Val


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

You said watch the timing with the Antibiotic...what happens/can happen?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Anitbioitics only have so much killing power so to speak, so if you load the system up with good bacteria (Probioitics) right before or right after; the Antibioitic is so busy killing the good bacteria that there is nothing or little left to kill the bad germs like it was intended to. So you are using each thing up against itself, there are no Probioitics left to help the get a good bacteria level in the digestive system and the Antibioitics are all used up and aren't killing the bad germs. 

I found that if I am giving ABX (Antibioitics) 2 times a day say at 7 am and 7 pm, then I give the Probioitics at 1 pm. That way each one has the maximum amount of time to do it's proper thing.

Val


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## emt1581 (Sep 5, 2008)

In other words if given too soon they'll cancel each other out.

What I don't understand is how this helps to rebuild the lining of the intestines...?...Plus as I understand it, the coccidia and hookworms are gone/dead...what exactly are we "fighting" here?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

There is good bacteria and bad bacteria, dogs and humans need good bacteria in their intestinal track. Right now it sounds like your pup has too much bad bacteria, which can happen when the system gets stressed by things like worms. Bad bacteria doesn't let the digestive system work properly so the food goes in and goes out too fast causing soreness in the digestive tract.

So right now you are giving ABX to kill off the bad bacteria and Probioitics to put in good bacteria. Once you get the bad killed off and a nice balance of good bacteria the digestive system will start working better. Right now think of food in you pups system as a run away train just rushing and banging around to get out. Once the bad bacteria is gone and there is a nice supply of good bacteria the digestive system says, hey look her comes the food wagon, Oh good we can use some of that, oh that is good too we will have some of that and it works to pull out the nutrients that the pup needs and then the waste material slowly moves through and out of the system. When the system starts to be able to process the food instead of rushing it out the lining of the intestinal track will settle down and heal up.

Val


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