# Dogs Follow the Friendliest, Not the Alpha



## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Who Needs an Alpha? Dogs Follow the Friendly | Pet Behavior | LiveScience


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I really don't think it's very accurate.

My sister and I own a house together, she has a dog and I have two. She's the loving person of us, she's happiest just sitting on a couch cuddling the dogs and is more apt to let behaviours slide. I like cuddling as well but I also have rules that are followed without exception and I expect more from them. I definitely the heavy in the relationship but the dogs (even hers) still come to me 9 times out of a 10. I'll also add that we both spend equal time will all the dogs

My parents have three dogs, my dad doesn't have much interest in the dogs, and he’ll let them out and feed them when told but otherwise leaves them alone outside of play time and cuddle time. So again, he's the fun one in the relationship where my mom is primary caregiver/authority. Also again, the dogs flock to my mom 9 times out of 10.

I really think being the "Alpha" is all about balance, knowing when to step in and when to let things slide. Consistency is extremely important as well both in mood and manner, so I don’t think dogs just look for the happy go lucky person, I think they look also for the most stable person 

Just my observations


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

wow, do they really try and stretch the lines with that article


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

You may find this source more understandable and valid as set out by Stanley Coren. Lee Charles Kelley's writings are also a good resource. I can spend days in Psychology Today's Animal Behavior section.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

http://www.psychologytoday.com/topics/animal-behavior


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Thats not accurate... watch dogs. Submissive dogs always follow the alpha around, licking its mouth, interacting, asking for attention, etc, and the alpha acts like the other dog isn't present more or less.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

No alpha's in our house...just three dogs, two cats and two humans fighting for the last burger off the grill.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I had hoped to elicit some discussion as well as see some responses. Here is another article debunking the "alpha" idea by yet another behavior and training expert, Dr. Ian Dunbar:

The Macho Myth | Dog Star Daily

This article does attempt to identify and link the disparities and years of connections in our minds in regards to our ideas of what is "alpha" and interpretation.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Whiteshepherds said:


> No alpha's in our house...just three dogs, two cats and two humans fighting for the last burger off the grill.


:laugh: I really wish there was a 'Like' button on this forum. Haha


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

No matter what ideals humans have, and how hard they try to make dogs fit their ideals, there will always be dominance and submission in canine behaviour and social structure. That is nature, that is how animals have lived for thousands upon thousands of years, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that. To be honest, I can't stand these "dominance debunked" articles. After spending a little under 10 years observing wolf behaviour and an entire career in animal care, which included a few years working with large packs of dogs, I firmly stand by the fact that dogs indeed use dominance, submission and rank amongst each other.

Do I think many people misuse the term Alpha and do not properly understand what it means? Absolutely. It's a term that has been tarnished by the media, and by trendy trainers.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Wild Wolf, it's a frustrating topic for sure. I too, strongly consider a misuse and misunderstanding of the term and it's 'tarnishment' as you put it. I really like the way you stated that. I have been training and observing dogs for decades, am in the animal care business myself, and was an undergrad in animal science pre-vet track and over the years have gone from compulsion training to training with a positive influence, using minimal aversives; I am what has been labeled a "crossover trainer" and I really struggle with a few issues that have more recently come to light, especially since attending a "dominance debunked" seminar by Dr. Dunbar, certainly a man of distinction in the animal behavior and training field. The most educated and experienced observers of behavior have rallied to debunk the Alpha dog and I'm listening. I myself am rolling these (not new) ideas around in my mind and working to understand another way of looking at things that is different than what I have been taught and interpreted for years. I am not judging anyone's response in this thread; rather I wanted to hear reactions and responses as well as others' feelings on this topic that has been set out to us by some of the most esteemed people in the field.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Suka said:


> Wild Wolf, it's a frustrating topic for sure. I too, strongly consider a misuse and misunderstanding of the term and it's 'tarnishment' as you put it. I really like the way you stated that. I have been training and observing dogs for decades, am in the animal care business myself, and was an undergrad in animal science pre-vet track and over the years have gone from compulsion training to training with a positive influence, using minimal aversives; I am what has been labeled a "crossover trainer" and I really struggle with a few issues that have more recently come to light, especially since attending a "dominance debunked" seminar by Dr. Dunbar, certainly a man of distinction in the animal behavior and training field. The most educated and experienced observers of behavior have rallied to debunk the Alpha dog and I'm listening. I myself am rolling these (not new) ideas around in my mind and working to understand another way of looking at things that is different than what I have been taught and interpreted for years. I am not judging anyone's response in this thread; rather I wanted to hear reactions and responses as well as others' feelings on this topic that has been set out to us by some of the most esteemed people in the field.


I think a big issue is that people are blurring the lines between how we interact and train dogs, and the natural instinctual behaviour and language of dogs. Both are separate, even though they are also intertwined. I train puppies and young dogs on purely positive methods, then introduce corrections when they are older and understand what is expected of them/fully understand their commands. Even still, I train mostly positive at all times. 

I absolutely consider myself "Alpha" of my pack, because I provide food, care for the needs of my dogs, I am in charge in and outside of the house, I offer commands and expectations when we are out as a working team or training, and I establish the rules of my pack and home. That makes me Alpha, not rolling and pinning and forcing and abusing or any of the things the media states are part of being the 'Negative Alpha'. Yes, I spoil my dogs ROTTEN and they are cherished and loved dearly in my life, but I am their leader and caretaker - first to defend, do everything necessary to provide love and care, I make the rules and expectations.

We can't change the basic nature of dogs. Of canines. Remove human influence at this point, watch the dog in its natural way of life, and you will see the primitive animal with primitive instincts at the core of its being. Domesticated or not, they are still animals. (And I love them for that, calling them animals in no way degrades them or lessens their importance in life.)


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> Do I think many people misuse the term Alpha and do not properly understand what it means? Absolutely. It's a term that has been tarnished by the media, and by trendy trainers.


Yep, and for that reason I will not use it. At this point, the word has become one that leads to confusion (and sometimes pretty hot-button confusion, at that!) rather than understanding.

I know that my own reflexive response is to _assume_ that a person using that term is subscribing to old-school thinking and a Cartman-esque "RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!" belligerence in asserting "dominance" over their dogs.

But that isn't always right, and on those occasions, my leaping to the assumption doesn't help facilitate understanding.

So I just don't use it. In general I've come to the view that leaping to labels is never really helpful in these discussions. I'm much less interested in what people _think_ they are doing (they're too often wrong) than what they are in fact actually doing, i.e., I'm not interested in whether someone thinks they are "positively reinforcing" their dog, I'm more interested in a granular, factual description of the actual actions that they are undertaking (delivering a piece of smelly cheese via the left hand to the dog in Heel position after the dog has been clicker marked for making eye contact in Heel).

I think that _those_ discussions -- specific, factual descriptions scrubbed of as many value judgments as possible -- are worth having. I don't think label exchanges are useful anymore. YMMV, of course; I'm in a phase of being a little burned out with Internet discussions and it shows.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I agree that I'm Alpha, but not in a mean way. They also have a structure amongst themselves. By far my oldest female is it in my house, the female GSD will eventually take that role and the males? They let the girls take charge


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't use the term in reference to myself. My dogs know that I maintain the resources, they aren't stupid. They listen to me, and show no aggression to me. 

On the other hand, I am not a pack member at all. I am neither a leader-dog or a follower-dog. I am the coach and they are the players, only the players will never become the coach. I am the boss, and they are the employees, only the employee will never become the boss. I am god with a small g (like in Greek or Roman gods), and they are the people. We are different species. They will never reach the level of human. And good. If they were humans I would probably have to kick them all out because I wouldn't be able to live with them. 

I think the people who studied the feral dogs just got it wrong. They studied wolves in captivity, and when the food is regular, pack members can spend their time squabbling about who lays where. But in the wild, the alpha dog and the alpha bitch cannot afford to have serious injuries all the time. They do not constantly fight or there would be no wolves. 

Dogs in packs do not follow the dog that is constantly attacking members -- that dog isn't going to make it. They follow the alpha dog. This actually was recognised as the dog with the most friends. But in fact, it is the dog that carries itself so alpha to the others, that exudes alpha in its body language that the lower ranking dogs flock to it, and in some cases a lower ranking dog will fight other dogs. But the alphas usually do not have to fight much at all. Not the true alpha. If they do, they settle a dispute with finality and it is done. Everyone understands where they are, and there is peace, or what looks like the friendly dog being followed. 

I truly believe there is an alpha/top dog hierarchy in dog packs. But I really give my dogs more credit and I don't lower myself to the level of canine to ensure their obedience. I do not bark at them to communicate. I do not howl with them at the train. (Well, ok, not all the time though). I do not order them off couches and beds, but I do draw the line at tables. I do not pee over top of every place they go to prove I am the top critter on the place -- and YES, bitches DO mark over other bitches pee. 

Dogs, very much like children, will follow someone who gives the overall essense of being in control. Even with collegues at work, if you go over there, and say:

"Hmmm well, I think we should probably check the wiring first, or maybe the component orientation. Let's not just turn it on. But wait, uh, maybe we could look for some preliminary tests we should run." 

Your collegues are going to start saying what they think the group should do first, and maybe start arguing about it. 

If instead, you go over and say, "I am going to run some preliminary checks on the new machine, and then we'll fire it up." People will step out of your way and be ready to do something if you ask them. 

There _are _leaders and followers, and dogs for the most part are happy to follow us. This doesn't mean they wait for us at doorways, unless we train them to do so. It has nothing to do with that. If a dog senses that you are in control, he will relax and go along with you. If a dog senses that you are nervous, putting off bad vibes, afriad, uncertain, the dog is going to be reflecting that nervousness and uncertainty -- that dog is much more likely to act on its own and make some bad choices. An incident of uncertainty or fearful behavior on the human won't make a difference, but general nervouseness, high strung, worried around people, angry and shouting -- these are the behaviors that dogs will be less likely to relax and follow. 

Every thing that the old-school trainers did, that Cesar does isn't necessarily wrong. I think it is over-done, often misunderstood and ineffectively applied, and often totally unnecessary.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

selzer said:


> I don't use the term in reference to myself. My dogs know that I maintain the resources, they aren't stupid. They listen to me, and show no aggression to me.
> 
> On the other hand, I am not a pack member at all. I am neither a leader-dog or a follower-dog. I am the coach and they are the players, only the players will never become the coach. I am the boss, and they are the employees, only the employee will never become the boss. I am god with a small g (like in Greek or Roman gods), and they are the people. We are different species. They will never reach the level of human. And good. If they were humans I would probably have to kick them all out because I wouldn't be able to live with them.
> 
> ...


Wow. I had to print this out and put it on my fridge. It was that awesome to read and totally opened a new perspective 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not sure about this article. 

When I look at Harry he is more comfortable and happy with a far more dominant stable dog, he will follow the dog and behave very respectfully. Compared to him with an over friendly Lab or doodle type dog or any over friendly breed - he hates them and will be quite mean to them, if allowed. I can't say how he behaves with an alpha - he has never met one, Lola has and it was very interesting watching her respectful behaviour.

So he likes dominate stable dogs compared to friendly stable dogs. He does not deal well with unstable dogs. Suppose he is following the wolf like way?

(Lola just likes all little dogs)


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Shade said:


> I really don't think it's very accurate.
> 
> My sister and I own a house together, she has a dog and I have two. She's the loving person of us, she's happiest just sitting on a couch cuddling the dogs and is more apt to let behaviours slide. I like cuddling as well but I also have rules that are followed without exception and I expect more from them. I definitely the heavy in the relationship but the dogs (even hers) still come to me 9 times out of a 10. I'll also add that we both spend equal time will all the dogs
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more--I share my home with my sister, and over the years, many different dogs, and we have observed the same thing. I kid my sister and tell her they think she is their sibling!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I think some people tend to get carried away with the whole alpha thing.

I do believe true alpha's / leaders are fair and benevolent. Not the stereotype portrayed often that shows a rogue type that slams the hammer down all the time.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs will follow the person giving the highest rate of reinforcement for the behavior of following regardless of whether that reinforcement is positive or negative.


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Suka said:


> I had hoped to elicit some discussion as well as see some responses. Here is another article debunking the "alpha" idea by yet another behavior and training expert, Dr. Ian Dunbar:
> 
> The Macho Myth | Dog Star Daily
> 
> This article does attempt to identify and link the disparities and years of connections in our minds in regards to our ideas of what is "alpha" and interpretation.


I saw a documentary by that British guy who lived with/raised abandoned wolf puppies; can't remember his name (Sean something??) but he agreed with the ideas in this article. The "alpha" isn't going to be the friendliest one that approaches right off the bat. In a litter of puppies, the one that runs up to greet humans first is the "beater" or "scout" and is just checking out the situation then reporting back to the leader/alpha. The ones that start all the disagreements in the pack are lower-ranking and insecure. So the true leader only exerts power when absolutely necessary. 

On another note of friendliest - the alpha isn't the friendliest, but they are the one with the most friends. Their leadership attracts the most followers but they don't go out actively seeking to increase the pack kind of thing.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

katro said:


> On another note of friendliest - the alpha isn't the friendliest, but they are the one with the most friends. Their leadership attracts the most followers but they don't go out actively seeking to increase the pack kind of thing.


In my time studying wolves I witnessed 4 different Alphas in a certain pack over the duration of about 10 years. One, Ebony, was known for being a very fair, laid back, friendly Alpha. He wasn't the type of wolf to go out of his way to dominate pack members or push other wolves around. He was pretty friendly and calm, which was not at all like his father, who was bossy and would not hesitate to actively dominate pack members for small things.

Then the wolf that proceeded Ebony, Smudge, was what I call a "middle ground" type of Alpha male. He was fairly laid back but during times of feeding, social interaction with the whole pack, and during mating season he would target all the males pretty aggressively. 

The next Alpha male was a wolf called Haida, who was actually Ebony's son, he was a friendly boy but would do what needed to be done when push comes to shove.

The Alpha female, now deceased, Citka, had reigned as Alpha female for MANY years... she was a pushy, rank driven female who would actively boss the females and yearlings around at any time, for any reason. She would even go out of her way to posture over sleeping wolves, just to posture.

The point of all that is that friendliness or lack there of, won't necessarily determine whether or not a wolf will be an Alpha in a pack.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

When my pup was around 7 months old, he ignored a recall. It was in my back yard, so it wasn't dangerous, but still! I didn't call him multiple times, and I didn't let him get away with it either: I strode over to him, picked him up, and carried him back to the porch. I didn't do it with any frustration, just a simple haul, lol. But this had a profound effect on how he treated me for the next few days - he followed me like a shadow and wouldn't leave my side, not even to do his usual investigations of what DH was up to. I don't know what this behavior means, but something happened. I didn't think I was harsh or anything, but I didn't want to have him learn that "Come" meant "and now go sniff a plant, return at your leisure". Alpha respect?


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm currently taking Stosh to Mirror Method training- all dogs off leash all the time. The 10 dogs range in size, age and training. There's a Golden that was so terrified the first class that she couldn't pry herself off of the wall. The next day she realized that Stosh is the dominant or alpha dog of the group and she follows him every where.  She'll lie down next to him and lick his mouth. She knows he can protect her and also wants his favor. Very interesting to watch. Stosh is very playful and outgoing with the group but she's not interested in playing, she wants his strength


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> When my pup was around 7 months old, he ignored a recall. It was in my back yard, so it wasn't dangerous, but still! I didn't call him multiple times, and I didn't let him get away with it either: I strode over to him, picked him up, and carried him back to the porch. I didn't do it with any frustration, just a simple haul, lol. But this had a profound effect on how he treated me for the next few days - he followed me like a shadow and wouldn't leave my side, not even to do his usual investigations of what DH was up to. I don't know what this behavior means, but something happened. I didn't think I was harsh or anything, but I didn't want to have him learn that "Come" meant "and now go sniff a plant, return at your leisure". Alpha respect?


Yes. You just learned the valuable lesson of one command, then obedience, once you are sure he knows what you want. I prefer to leave them on a long light line for a time, which accomplishes exactly the same as what you did. The light line simply ensures that he can't take off, further evading what he's supposed to do. While you bring him back to the point where he was supposed to come to, you don't speak, you don't berate, you don't show any anger, you are completely neutral. Then, when he is back to the spot you were when you called him, a pat and "Good boy" are sufficient, don't scold him and don't make a big deal praising him. NEVER let him be in a situation where he can tell you "no" on a recall, and I have found that a light braided nylon line (that he can forget he's dragging) is the best way to ensure that At first it can be as long as 50 ft., and gradually you can make the line shorter and shorter, then finally leave just a "handle" on him, a knotted piece of nylon rope on his collar that allows you to get hold of him easily. When he is performing a solid recall with the handle on him, then you are ready to remove the handle. You may still have to remind him once in a while with the handle (or light line), but he is solidly on his way to a good recall.

Susan


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Wild Wolf said:


> The point of all that is that friendliness or lack there of, won't necessarily determine whether or not a wolf will be an Alpha in a pack.


I don't think friendliness will determine the pack leader either. I should have clarified that it was another sentiment from the documentary. :blush:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Studies like this are mostly useless for practical training purposes anyway. Youre not dogs youre not wolves youre humans. Youre smarter than a dog is thats why we are able to train them, although ive know dogs that has their humans fairly well trained as well we wont go there. We shouldnt copy wolves or dog behavior to get what we want out of them. We have far better options that are far more effective.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Suka said:


> Who Needs an Alpha? Dogs Follow the Friendly | Pet Behavior | LiveScience



Just from a pet home standpoint when we get a new puppy they always seem to know who the alpha dog is and they always follow that dog around and try to copy him/her. Right now I've got a super calm 12 year old male and puppy is constantly mirroring him even tho I have several other dogs that he plays with. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

What a pile of nonsense. These studies are about affirmation of what people wish was true not actual truth. Oh well more money for dog training in the end...lol.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Brian hare has been publishing studies to sell stuff for a while now. Dognition is a useless joke.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I find these articles interesting and am following the discussion.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I guess I'm a relative newbie (15 years experience and 5 dogs). I do all the training, feeding. exercising, and most of the playing. My better have could take any of the dogs for a walk or an outing and they did what they were trained to do, be well behaved dogs. But when we are both at home together, if we are in separate rooms our dogs hang out with me.


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