# show line able to do protection?



## boomer11

is it rare for a show line dogs to be able to handle protection work? how about schutzhund? do you guys see a lot of show line dogs at your clubs?


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## trcy

I would say yes. Yes, I do see show dogs at my club.


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## Lucy Dog

To be bred and registered in Germany, all of the show lines need to be schutzhund titled.


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## trcy

Lucy Dog said:


> To be bred and registered in Germany, all of the show lines need to be schutzhund titled.


Thank you. I thought that was the case. I'm kind of new to this though so I was a bit confused by the question....lol


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## boomer11

Lucy Dog said:


> To be bred and registered in Germany, all of the show lines need to be schutzhund titled.


hahah thanks for the very obvious answer. you are helpful as always. let me quote an administrator of this board speaking about titled show lines....



Chris Wild said:


> For SchH/IPO work.. well, it depends. Yes, they are "highly titled". Typically all show lines are. But to not get too far into specifics, lets just say that there are different ways to get titled and very often those ways are vastly different between show and working lines. There is a difference between having the natural traits to do well, and just squeaking by under very favorable circumstances.


with that said, i just wanna know if a person gets a pup from a breeder who has show line dogs that are titled, do those dogs do good at schutzhund? or are the breeders kind of misleading the buyer?


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## mycobraracr

Let me be very helpful. Some can some can't. I know of one that has been very successful, but she has also had a TON of work and time put in her. I would also say that she's (the dog) of the I have to do this mindset instead of the I love to do this mindset. 

What I have noticed is that it isn't about SL (general statement) drive level as much as it is about lack of nerve. I have worked a handful of SL's with decent drive, but as soon as it becomes less of a game they start to crumble. Within those SL's that I have worked, I have noticed also that the ones with all the "drive" are also somewhat neurotic and harder to live with than a good WL. This has just been my observation.


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## DaniFani

mycobraracr said:


> Let me be very helpful. Some can some can't. I know of one that has been very successful, but she has also had a TON of work and time put in her. I would also say that she's (the dog) of the I have to do this mindset instead of the I love to do this mindset.
> 
> *What I have noticed is that it isn't about SL (general statement) drive level as much as it is about lack of nerve.m I have worked a handful of SL's with decent drive, but as soon as it becomes less of a game they start to cruble*. Within those SL's that I have worked, I have noticed also that the ones with all the "drive" are also somewhat neurotic and harder to live with than a good WL. This has just been my observation.


You have just described the two at my club (including mine that passed) to a T. There is drive there, it has to be worked at a lot to be brought out and continue to nourish it more, it seems, than the working lines....but I only have experience up close and personal with those two. I've watched others be "tested" that were washed because the drive wasn't there....but most of what I've seen working, are working lines...so my experience up close and personal is the one that is being worked at my club....and the ones I've seen washed....so there's my anecdotal stories lol.


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## gsdlover91

boomer11 said:


> with that said, i just wanna know if a person gets a pup from a breeder who has show line dogs that are titled, do those dogs do good at schutzhund? or are the breeders kind of misleading the buyer?


Cant speak for ALL show lines, but I have a show line whom I bought from a breeder who has SchH titled dogs. My show line will never be a schH champion or anything, but he is very capable of doing schutzhund, and enjoys it - all 3 aspects.

EDIT: Like said below, some can and some can't. Sure, a working line is way easier to train in Schutzhund. WAY. But, my show line has plenty of drive, he has solid nerves. I just need to figure out *different* ways to engage with him, to motivate him. He is ball crazy and will do most things for a ball and for food. So obedience hasnt really been super hard. He's very trainable. Just not as easy as it would be with a working line. I guess, as mycobrarcr put it, he has more of the mind set of I have to do this, than I LOVE doing this. He enjoys it, but he doesn't LIVE for it.


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## hunterisgreat

I've yet to see a SL that impressed me in their work (except when judged against other show lines). Plenty of SL with prey drive, plenty that have defense as well. Yet to see one I'd describe as rock solid nerves. 

Can a pickup truck go fast around a race track? Most not really, but sporty trucks have been made... Can it beat a Ferrari? Certainly no but the Ferrari was purpose built for the task where the truck was made to haul things.. Which is a task it excels at over the Ferrari.


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## crackem

boomer11 said:


> with that said, i just wanna know if a person gets a pup from a breeder who has show line dogs that are titled, do those dogs do good at schutzhund? or are the breeders kind of misleading the buyer?


The easy answer is know the dogs. work them if you can, watch them being worked. Know the dogs, you'll have a better idea of what you're getting. Buy one off a breeders word and you don't have a good personal relationship with them? well you get what you deserve sometimes and it doesn't matter what kind of dogs they claim to breed.


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## TrickyShepherd

We have SL's at our training group. There are a few who do/did really well. They've done sporting (IPO), and some in personal protection. Same as working lines.... it depends on the pedigree, the breeder, and the individual dog. If it has the nerves, drives, and temperament for it.... absolutely. It is possible. It's just a little easier to find a WL capable of doing the work... but that doesn't mean it's impossible. 

My WGSL isn't the greatest, but he doesn't meet the above requirements I stated... so I'm not shocked. But he did really well before he was pulled from the sport due to health problems. He did bitework... it took a lot of work, a lot of slooooow work... but he did it, he enjoyed it, and eventually he even went onto the suit for some personal protection work. Now IF all I mentioned above lined up.... I'm sure he would have been amazing. Unfortunately, his nerves and health showed some faults. He taught me a lot, and I had a blast working with him.... but, he's not what I'd consider a good representation though.


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## onyx'girl

I train at a place where many of the GSD's are SL's and many of them are from the same kennel(not all related however). I would say about 5 out of 10 are going to get some nice scores and titles in IPO. All these dogs have a strong training foundation for the most part( how much time the handler spends training plays into it). 
It all depends, though, on what they are compared to.


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## GatorDog

My SL cross has been relatively successful in IPO. He has gotten an IPO3 twice now with scores in the 80's. He is a very good tracker and has decent obedience. Our biggest problem is in the bitework. He works out of defense and his grip has suffered as a result, which is where we lose most of our points. He is not a confident dog, which is where the base of our problem lies. Environmentaly and in the house, he is the most perfect dog you could ever ask for. I love him to death. 

I will probably continue to trial him just to gain the experience. That and the fact that I really don't have to actively keep up with training multiple times weekly to keep him ready. He is a very reliable dog and I get what I expect in the trials.


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## Freddy

What opened my eyes was going to a conformation trial to get a BH on my WL male. After attending many trials, 2 nationals and several regional IPO championships, let's just say it's a different experience. 

It opened my eyes.


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## Liesje

I have a show line and I love show lines so I'm not saying this as someone who has never liked them and will never own one (quite the contrary, and I have titled a show line in many things). In my experience, many plateau as they mature. As puppies they work pretty much like a decent working line, but then they just seem to fizzle and fade as there is more pressure, more conflict to work through. I think many are still good protection dogs in the sense that they can show aggression and will protect the owner/handler (I'm not talking about sport training) but a lot seem to lack the overall soundness, the desire to stay in the fight. Also unfortunately a lot have conformation that is just not conducive to sports.


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## ayoitzrimz

Sorry, but don't we already have like 500 threads about this? OP: there are two ways to search: the search bar at the top will give you a google custom search and the search this forum button on the top right. If you look up some key words like "Showline schutzhund" or "working show line" I'm sure you will find plenty of results.


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## Vagus

Liesje said:


> I have a show line and I love show lines so I'm not saying this as someone who has never liked them and will never own one (quite the contrary, and I have titled a show line in many things). In my experience, many plateau as they mature. As puppies they work pretty much like a decent working line, but then they just seem to fizzle and fade as there is more pressure, more conflict to work through. I think many are still good protection dogs in the sense that they can show aggression and will protect the owner/handler (I'm not talking about sport training) but a lot seem to lack the overall soundness, the desire to stay in the fight. Also unfortunately a lot have conformation that is just not conducive to sports.


Thank you for posting this - it was really informative. I always appreciate reading your posts. They're often balanced, well thought out and don't have condescending undertones to less knowledgeable forum members. Not to mention - I have never seen you talk down any line of GSD. You share your experiences without showing a clear bias for or against any dogs.


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## wolfstraum

I have watched alot of showline dogs at various training venues.....some excel at tracking, some show good drive for nice protection work - either in prey or in aggression....the issue for competition is keeping focus and drive under pressure...resilience...I have seen a dog get in the low 90s when on it's home field, home helper where it was nurtured from a puppy and conditioned...go to another field, another helper and it is a different picture. Obedience phase and secondary obedience are not easy due to pressure and commonly a lack of resilience....

You can do it with a showline given the right club and helper...will it come easy? No. Will you excel and score higher than the WL dogs? Doubtful. Will it be fun? Not that I have seen. When everyone else is progressing and you are taking baby steps, it may be hard on your sense of personal accomplishment....

I have seen several good working (protection) SL dogs, one from a small Eastern Bloc country was very strong. A few here and there were solid in protection....but none have ever been super flashy obedience dogs.

Lee


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## Liesje

Vagus said:


> Thank you for posting this - it was really informative. I always appreciate reading your posts. They're often balanced, well thought out and don't have condescending undertones to less knowledgeable forum members. Not to mention - I have never seen you talk down any line of GSD. You share your experiences without showing a clear bias for or against any dogs.


Thanks. I certainly don't mean to bash show lines, being that I HAVE one myself and actually he's been pretty easy to train, he was High SchH1, High Obedience, and in the mid-90s in tracking (my good friend who I trained with side by side beat me by one point, hehe) and this was *not* on a home field and on a helper we only worked on once, the day before (oh and we drove two states over just to do a BH, also on a field I'd never been not even to practice and with a club and judge I'd never met). But I don't think my experience is the norm and when I bought my SL dog I was not really thinking about doing SchH/IPO, that came later on and luckily it's been fun and rewarding for us. 

What I see a lot are people getting SL dogs thinking it's a happy medium...a dog that *can* work but they have this (false) opinion that a higher drive WL dog will be more difficult to train and handle. In some lines/breedings that is the case but on the whole, I think someone newer to SchH is much better off with a nice WL dog. I also trained a WL dog (he has a new owner now and just qualified for Nationals at age 3 while earning his first IPO3) and he was a bit easier to train in SchH than my SL (though I prefer the overall temperament of my SL). If you want to learn the ropes and be able to score well at club level, maybe even try a regional or national, there's no reason to not get a nice WL dog. Plenty of good breeders in the USA can help find one that fits one's lifestyle without selling a dog that is too hard for a novice handler.

So in short, yes you CAN do IPO with a SL dog. Plenty of people do and have a great time, title their dogs, get fair and respectable scores. But if the main goal when getting a dog is IPO and there are no other reasons to prefer the SL dog, then get a WL from a breeder that is actively titling dogs in IPO and consistently producing dogs that are earning IPO titles.


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## Neko

My puppy's father is 3 years old and IPO3 x 3 times, so yep, they can do well. But the club he trains at also has other breeds training at IPO and they also do well! So it just depends dog to dog. The working lines have the energy over the roof, but they are not the only breed that does well.


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## Colie CVT

My girl comes from german show lines, but the person who bred her is getting into the white swiss shepherd dogs now. Her full brother that basically looks just like her is a champion show dog. She hasn't been shown, but you get the idea. 

This past May (before she turned 5 years in August) I had her instinct tested by a trainer I know who's worked with all gambit of dogs in all kinds of avenues. She bombed. HARDCORE. I have pictures of her looking around like an airhead while the trainer tried to engage her. It was kind of embarrassing, but I wasn't sure what all I expected. I've wanted to get into the sports for awhile now, but never had a dog I could with. But the trainer had an idea. Use the car to bring up the defense. 

It worked a touch too well. Leia was already a very confident dog when I got her. Someone did obedience with her when she was younger. I haven't tried to see if she'll track or not, but given her age and all, I don't think we'll be trialing any lol. She is helping me learn a lot however, and watching everyone else who works with the trainer is helpful too. However she has a lot of nerve. I haven't tried her with any other decoys, but she has shown a willingness to defend away from the pitch. Even way from the car. So it depends dog to dog. 

She gets enthusiastic enough about the bitework she actually injured her ilopsoas muscle and had to take about four months off while we let her heal and came up with an exercise gameplan, but she started up again about a month ago and she hasn't missed a beat. I'm having a lot of fun and I'm excited for when I can get a puppy and actually start from the ground up. So it can be fun for some people too, especially when you got an awesome dog to work with.


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