# WGSL Personal Protection Stories



## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Has anybody had a WGSL succesfully trained in personal protection? 

Look forward to hearing from you all that can share any related stories.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

do they exist? sure...
are they common? nope...
do you want the cost, training upkeep, responsibility and liability of a PPD? probably not!
they aren’t sport dogs or dogs that simply have some bitework training.
finding a suitable trainer is about as difficult as finding a suitable dog.
pretty sure your wife will feel safer just having a big gsd with an intimidating bark around


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Fodder said:


> do they exist? sure...
> are they common? nope...
> do you want the cost, training upkeep, responsibility and liability of a PPD? probably not!
> they aren’t sport dogs or dogs that simply have some bitework training.
> ...


Meh time, money, effort. While great things to consider, they aren't the biggest of deal to us. 

Just want to know if anybody has had a WGSL trained in personal protection, and how succesful they were.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Define success from your perspective please.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

David Winners said:


> Define success from your perspective please.


Uh..... having the ability to learn the training being given to them and being good at it? 

Not exactly sure what you're asking.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

camnava314 said:


> Uh..... having the ability to learn the training being given to them and being good at it?
> 
> Not exactly sure what you're asking.


Good PPD's are hard to find and their owners seldom started with pups. Although any number of scammy trainers and dealers would lead yo to believe otherwise, a dog with the correct temperament for the work is not all that common in any line.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

camnava314 said:


> Uh..... having the ability to learn the training being given to them and being good at it?
> 
> Not exactly sure what you're asking.


What do you expect from a PPD? 

During normal life and during a protection scenario.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know. But Villain, who is WGSL, was certified as a police dog at the end of November, for both drugs and apprehension. I imagine protecting his handler is part of that as well. He was made a full k9 with his owner's department January first. He told me today that, while he hasn't bitten a bad guy yet, he has more drug busts than the dog that has been with the department for two years. He also told me that he has a full bite and is very impressive in training with the guy who trains the dogs for the sheriff's department. The dog went to him at either 8 or 10 months, completely untrained. I got to see him today. That he could certify by 14 months after not being conditioned at all as any type of bitework-dog, I don't know, they did a nice job with him. I guess I would say it is doable. The SV requires a schutzhund/IPO title or a herding title for breeding. Protection is part of Schutzhund/IPO,, and I believe even the herding-titled dogs have to go through a protection phase when shown. 

I always wonder if having a dog trained in protection will affect your home-owner's insurance. The chances are that a well-trained dog is much less likely to bite the wrong people, but organizations are often kind of backwards, about such things.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There are plenty of police dogs that shouldn't be police dogs.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

__
http://instagr.am/p/B-Ap7zphFxy/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Dog I posted above is a show line....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

How do you know that dog is from show lines?


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

David Winners said:


> What do you expect from a PPD?
> 
> During normal life and during a protection scenario.


Normal life to be a normal dog, during a protection scenario, to protect.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

camnava314 said:


> Normal life to be a normal dog, during a protection scenario, to protect.


You think these questions are silly, but they’re actually crucial. For example, do you want a dog that can go with you everywhere? To family parties, to the park? Do you expect this dog to hang out at dog parks around strange dogs? Will the dog be around children regularly? When “protecting,” do you expect the dog to actually bite and hold? To bark and chase down a bad guy? To jump through car windows to get after a perp? You can’t just say ‘protect’ because that means something very different to everyone.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Pytheis said:


> You think these questions are silly, but they’re actually crucial. For example, do you want a dog that can go with you everywhere? To family parties, to the park? Do you expect this dog to hang out at dog parks around strange dogs? Will the dog be around children regularly? When “protecting,” do you expect the dog to actually bite and hold? To bark and chase down a bad guy? To jump through car windows to get after a perp? You can’t just say ‘protect’ because that means something very different to everyone.


I just want to know if anybody has succesfully trained a WGSL to be a ppd. I'm not exactly keen on being asked a bunch of questions about something I'm not even 100% about doing.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

My question wasn't "what does it take to train a ppd and what do you think about the reasons for me wanting one" 

I'm merely looking to see if it's possible, to hear stories, see results.. etc.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Sure, someone can come along and say, “Yeah, my WGSL is an amazing personal protection dog!” What they actually have is a fearful dog that barks at anything and everything, but a terrible trainer told them the dog was PPD trained. That’s why people are asking how you define protection and success. Your definitions may be very different from someone else’s and you can’t take their word as gospel on if it’ll work for you. If you want a dog that can bark and look scary, absolutely, a WGSL can fit for you. Lots of success stories there.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You can find a WGSL that will bite and fight. The question is how much pressure can that dog take? How easy is it to run the dog?


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Of course I'm not going to push my dog and force it into doing something it is not going to excel at.. if it doesnt work out it doesnt work out. 

Again, just trying to see if there are any success stories.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

camnava314 said:


> Normal life to be a normal dog, during a protection scenario, to protect.


To protect can mean many different things from barking to scare someone away to fighting a person who is fighting them, which are two very different things, require very different dogs and come with very different handler responsibilities, skills and and liability issues. I don't think a PP dog is for you. Maybe what some refer to as an image dog where the does presents the image of protecting but is not really capable of fighting a person if the need arises. I would not consider a WGSL for a PP dog, but I also wouldn't consider them for anything.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> To protect can mean many different things from barking to scare someone away to fighting a person who is fighting them, which are two very different things, require very different dogs and come with very different handler responsibilities, skills and and liability issues. I don't think a PP dog is for you. Maybe what some refer to as an image dog where the does presents the image of protecting but is not really capable of fighting a person if the need arises. I would not consider a WGSL for a PP dog, but I also wouldn't consider them for anything.


I guess this is my bad for assuming people weren't too dense to understand what MOST people view as personal protection training. I also didn't ask if you, or anybody, think it's right for me, and to be frank I don't care if you do or not. I asked a VERY simple question and y'all are obviously struggling to grasp what that question really is. 🙄

My apologies


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You said you thought having a PP dog would be kind of cool and don’t really even know what a PP dog is, what genetics are required, the potential liabilities of a true man stopper, and had to ask the rookie question about show line dogs as candidates as PP dogs. You don’t like the responses you are getting instead of taking advantage of learning from them. How do you know what “most” people view as a PP dog when you had to ask the question you did?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

camnava314 said:


> I guess this is my bad for assuming people weren't too dense to understand what MOST people view as personal protection training. I also didn't ask if you, or anybody, think it's right for me, and to be frank I don't care if you do or not. I asked a VERY simple question and y'all are obviously struggling to grasp what that question really is. 🙄
> 
> My apologies


Actually, most protection dogs are "customized" to suit the individual situation. Mine would not have left my side for love nor money and could not be baited or dragged away from me. She would let go before she would allow an assailant to move her from me. All of the PPD's I handled were trained to those specifics, because that was what we needed.
You cannot train one by yourself and it is rare to raise one from a pup, since the raising is important and best handled by folks who understand the importance of every detail. MOST people have no actual clue what a PPD really is. 
If I was looking for a PPD I would not be looking at a show line, individual results may vary.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Actually, most protection dogs are "customized" to suit the individual situation. Mine would not have left my side for love nor money and could not be baited or dragged away from me. She would let go before she would allow an assailant to move her from me. All of the PPD's I handled were trained to those specifics, because that was what we needed.
> You cannot train one by yourself and it is rare to raise one from a pup, since the raising is important and best handled by folks who understand the importance of every detail. MOST people have no actual clue what a PPD really is.
> If I was looking for a PPD I would not be looking at a show line, individual results may vary.


If you paid attention to my post, nowhere did i say I'm looking for a ppd. I did not choose my breeder with the hopes that i will have the perfect ppd. I chose her for completely different reasons.

And again. For the 100th time.. i was CURIOUS to see if ANYBODY OUT THERE had a WGSL that is trained in PPD.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think you are projecting your own denseness. You said you thought having a PP dog would be kind of cool and don’t really even know what a PP dog is, what genetics are required, the potential liabilities of a true man stopper, and had to ask the rookie question about show line dogs as candidates as PP dogs. You don’t like the responses you are getting instead of taking advantage of learning from them. How do you know what “most” people view as a PP dog when you had to ask the question you did? Thick as a brick.


That's the issue.. what you all are attempting to teach me is not what i created this thread for.. if you do not have a wgsl that was trained to be a ppd or even know of one, then this post literally doesn't apply to you. Why is that so hard to comprehend?


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

I have no interest in sharing my opinion on what i consider a ppd, i have no interest in sharing exactly what or why i would like to have a ppd. I have no interest in sharing much personal information other than what I already have.

I simply just want to hear from the people that have a WGSL and that actually attempted pp training, even if they weren't very successful with it.

Thank you for attempting to teach me, but it's unsolicited and to me, it is not relevant to the intent of my question.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

No one here has a showline trained to be a personal protection dog. Based on what I know about them, you’re going to be looking really hard to find someone who does.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I don’t think there are any members on this forum with WGSL PPDs. Of course, I could be mistaken.

There are a handful here with WGSL’s, and a small handful with experience with PPD’s, but I don’t think we have anyone here fitting your inquiry. Unless they’ve never posted about it.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> I don’t think there are any members on this forum with WGSL PPDs. Of course, I could be mistaken.
> 
> There are a handful here with WGSL’s, and a small handful with experience with PPD’s, but I don’t think we have anyone here fitting your inquiry. Unless they’ve never posted about it.


 Thank you.

That's all I was trying to do, because after searching I did not find anything. Was hoping by starting this conversation I'd try and pull them out of the dark if they were there. 

If not cool, that literally tells me everything I need to know on the matter.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I’ll simplify it for you. True WGSL PP dogs are like hen’s teeth. You have no interest in admitting you are clueless.


I'll simplify it for you, I did not ask for an opinion on the subject or of me 

Was just curious if there were success stories.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Actually, you did ask an opinion on the subject indirectly. There has never been a modern WGSL successfully trained as a PPD.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Actually, you did ask an opinion on the subject indirectly. There has never been a modern WGSL successfully trained as a PPD. Get a cat.


LMAO pretty sure the question was, "has anybody trained a wgsl to be a ppd?"

Not, "what do you think of me training my dog to be a ppd and do you think i have what it takes?"


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

How the actual question "indirectly" asks you of your opinion of me and what im capable of having is beyond me and now i will admit that I am extremely clueless to how you came up with that solution.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

camnava314 said:


> How the actual question "indirectly" asks you of your opinion of me and what im capable of having is beyond me and now i will admit that I am extremely clueless to how you came up with that solution.


perhaps the personal anecdotes that have since been edited out...?

i mean technically, one could answer your question with a simple “yes”, nothing more. but that’s rarely how online forums go... most questions tend to spark related discussions.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Fodder said:


> perhaps the personal anecdotes that have since been edited out...?
> 
> i mean technically, one could answer your question with a simple “yes”, nothing more. but that’s rarely how online forums go... most questions spark related discussions.


Perhaps that's possible, i edited it out because it gave the slightest bit of personal info and people seemed to stick to that subject instead of the actual question i was asking.

It basically said it wasnt super important to me because id rather have an all around sound dog but it would be cool. But my wife would prefer to have one for when i leave on a business trip and what not.

I wanted to hear stories on the actual question, not give out my personal beliefs and experiences. They made it more about me when that wasn't my intent


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

I also stated that intent numerous times throughout my replies.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Fodder said:


> i mean technically, one could answer your question with a simple “yes”, nothing more.


Also, if somebody respinded this way, it would spark curiosity and I would ask them to elaborate. 

If I didn't get anything back, meh, maybe the next one would.

I also understand every dog is different, and if my future puppy does not have what it takes to do that kind of work or training then ok, this is definitely not a deal breaker for me.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Let's stop the snarky remarks people.If the thread irritates you please just move on.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

well if nothing else... we kept your post alive and at the top of the feed.

you’ve been a member a long time but haven’t participated much. maybe you lurk enough to recognize some members names, maybe not..... but with the credentials some of ppl responding have, i don’t know, personally i would have enjoyed the dialog and absorbed what i could while awaiting responses to the initial question.


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## camnava314 (Sep 5, 2016)

Fodder said:


> well if nothing else... we kept your post alive and at the top of the feed.
> 
> you’ve been a member a long time but haven’t participated much. maybe you lurk enough to recognize some members names, maybe not..... but with the credentials some of ppl responding have, i don’t know, personally i would have enjoyed the dialog and absorbed what i could while awaiting responses to the initial question.


Yah maybe you're right. I could have used it as a learning tool and had an open mind. I personally was just not interested in doing so.

I likely won't even be training her in personal protection because while I do think it would be cool to have, I just don't think it's practical, especially with the breeder I chose.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

This has been an interesting read. I think the OP got his answer right away and the members did what we do and tried to give solid information to someone that appeared not to understand what he was asking. 

Several times the OP was asked questions in efforts to get a better understanding of how he understood what a PPD was particularly since his wife wanted one for when he was gone. Most every time, to my recollection, the questions were brushed off. 

Everyone here wants people to have the best experience they can with their GSD. They also want others who lurk but are not ready to join to also gain from these discussions. These are public discussions and my experience here are that the members attempt to inform beyond what might be the superficial concern and get to the heart of the matter so that ALL might learn. 

PPDs should not be taken lightly. Big responsibility as Fodder pointed out in a very friendly manner in the very first response. The Op didn’t start with just the, “I’m curious if anyone on the forum has ever successfully trained a WGSL in PPD and if so, if they could share some stories.” Instead he talked about training one for his wife. Yes, context matters. 

I don’t think anyone here really cares who the OPs are in these discussions, just want enough information to answer the question and have a discussion. 

Long day, I’ll get off of my soapbox now. 😊


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There are plenty of police dogs that shouldn't be police dogs.


Maybe, but that is what the certification process is all about. The dog passed the test, and within 4 hours of being on the department's roll, he had already made his first find. His owner says he has found meth and heroin and crack pipes. He is doing his job. He came out of the car, jumped on me and licked my face. They stenciled his name on the cruiser. 

Chip, there are plenty of working line dogs that can't or shouldn't be used for protection either. There are certainly GSL dogs that can do the job.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My last PPD was a byb dog, so a mish mash of lines likely predominantly ASL. She is likely as close as you will get.
Part of your issue here lies in the fact that protection training is now a sport. 
In that sport there are a handful of show line dogs, but have I ever seen a working PPD that is a showline? No.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

I’d contact your local club and see if they have any WGSL in it. Maybe one of the handlers will wanna talk or be able to nudge you in the right direction of if it’s worth it to you.

I’ve seen WGSL do PPD training but compared to a WL the drive was very different. The WGSL was bred to also be able to do sport and in Germany it’s required for them to be bred that they have IPO/SCHH/IGP titles. So I’d say, yes they can be a PPD but maybe not up to standards that most have. Who knows how any dog will react in a real world example though, but the training will definitely make a certain behaviour more probable but it all depends on the individual dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Getting an adult in any line will increase your chances in what you are looking for. Talk to breeders/ trainers who train for real life scenario protection. Next town over their was a wgsl that was a successful police dog for many years until his passing. Find the right lines within in that line. I have a asl. I believe he would make a good protection dog some dogs can do it all regardless of the line. My wgsl - Luna alerted to one the neighbor was setting fire in the backyard and strange things happening. While on a walk there was someone walking down the driveway with hedge trimmers in hand with much gusto they looked like they were charging right towards us but were in a zone. Luna was ready to defend. Will watch any suspicious people when needed. Not knowing my nephew left the gate open my sister pulled in the driveway got out and Luna charged then she stopped to smell my sister and greeted her. My sister who knows Luna well was afraid and did not even recognize her she thought she was about to be attacked until Luna saw who it was. She is very territorial of her hard. Max more of his people. I had a working line dog police trained dog that was trained to bite it was a big responsibility he made a great pet as well. If you were planning to do protection training yourself you would really have to go somewhere that is highly recommended not all places are. If you look up the breeder who sell the professionally trained protection dogs at those wild expensive fees you will always find they have a wgsl in their kennel. Most people just want a deterrent so figure out what you really want.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

camnava314 said:


> Normal life to be a normal dog, during a protection scenario, to protect.


Well thanks for the info!

Hey, if you want help getting the dog you need, you can get that here. I'd suggest you open up to discussion a bit. A WGSL dog that is a good pet that will bark on command and look threatening is certainly possible. An actual PPD? That's rare. 

There are plenty of working police dogs that excel at detection but fall short in protection. It really depends on the demands of the the individual department what they can work with. Some dogs go their whole career without a bite. Some have dozens of street bites.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

There’s one person in my club who wants to train their dog in as a ppd. We will see how it goes.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Maybe, but that is what the certification process is all about. The dog passed the test, and within 4 hours of being on the department's roll, he had already made his first find. His owner says he has found meth and heroin and crack pipes. He is doing his job. He came out of the car, jumped on me and licked my face. They stenciled his name on the cruiser.
> 
> Chip, there are plenty of working line dogs that can't or shouldn't be used for protection either. There are certainly GSL dogs that can do the job.


My friend who also breeds WGSL has a dog placed with LE as a detection dog, with similar results as yours. The dog does what they need him to do.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Any breed with good food or prey drive and decent nerves can do detection work, such as Beagles and even Cocker Spaniels.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Any breed with good food or prey drive and decent nerves can do detection work, such as Beagles and even Cocker Spaniels.


Then let police use them. It doesn’t mean WGSL can’t be K9s for specific tasks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> Then let police use them. It doesn’t mean WGSL can’t be K9s for specific tasks.


Villain is WGSL and dual detection/tracking and apprehension. Certified in both. He has only been on the rolls since January 1st, and hasn't had the opportunity yet to bite. His owner says he will bite if they run. His bite is full and he does hold -- so far that has only been in training. He told me that he was going to put the dog through the window, but his Lt. was able to get the guy to come out of the car. The bites are going to come.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Then let police use them. It doesn’t mean WGSL can’t be K9s for specific tasks.


Other breeds are used for detection. The topic was about WGSL's as PP dogs. Being a police detection dog has nothing to do with a dog's ability to fight a person. Those traits have been bred out of the show lines. Like the post above. The dog is certified in apprehension but will only bite in prey if someone runs and only in training so far. That dog should not be dual certified.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Not sure if you are looking for a adult fully trained dog. This breeder is advertising protective trained dogs some are wgsl. Not sure what kind of protection training they actually have but their are quite a few places just like this one in the link that have adult trained wgsl’s for sale. Mind you many years ago these dogs were affordable. Not sure why your budget is but I can imagine a very high cost in a trained protection dog. Reputable places who are in the protection breed business may be able to direct you best to where to get a pup if that is the route you want to go. 





Trained German Shepherds | Protection Trained Guard Dogs for Sale


Kraftwerk K9's world-champion staff specializes in trained German Shepherds for home protection. Learn more about our trained guard dogs!




kraftwerkk9.com


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

camnava314 said:


> If you paid attention to my post, nowhere did i say I'm looking for a ppd. I did not choose my breeder with the hopes that i will have the perfect ppd. I chose her for completely different reasons.
> 
> And again. For the 100th time.. i was CURIOUS to see if ANYBODY OUT THERE had a WGSL that is trained in PPD.


This really explains why you aren't getting the responses you want. I think 90% of the people who buy dogs from these lines, do it for the reasons you originally did and the majority of them never pursue any formal protection work. So, even if the dogs are capable of something, you'll never know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Other breeds are used for detection. The topic was about WGSL's as PP dogs. Being a police detection dog has nothing to do with a dog's ability to fight a person. Those traits have been bred out of the show lines. Like the post above. The dog is certified in apprehension but will only bite in prey if someone runs and only in training so far. That dog should not be dual certified.


What makes you an expert? The dog has been on the job for 23 days. And he doesn't get called out every day. He hasn't bitten yet because the opportunity hasn't arisen. You think that because it is a show line dog it is no good. The dog is a certified police dog, that is on the job, and he has more busts already than the dog that has been there for a couple or years. Have you bred police dogs? I am wondering what makes you know everything there is to know about every dog out there.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I did’t say the dog wasn’t a good detection dog and your description of his apprehension skills support he should not have been certified as a apprehension dog. You said the dog only bites if the decoy is running away. Totally consistent with decoy work at any trial/show for WGSL dogs in the protection phase. Your description clearly infers the dog could easily be run. Yes, I think because the dog is a showline dog he is no good for man work because he was breed to win conformation shows which require only playing at bite work. The dogs at Germany’s BSZS are an embarrassment in bite work.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The world is to big to want to assume what there is one thing show line breeders breed for. One of the most important jobs a K9 has in his career is detection work and can not understand why anyone who would belittle that kind of skill.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I’m not belittling detection work and show line breeders breed primarily for conformation. As I said, a good detection dog only requires good food or prey drive and decent nerves. Higher prey drive, hunt drive and possessiveness definitely help and are not typical of WGSL’s. I am saying it sounds like the dog should not have been certified for apprehension.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ANY dog that loves it's owner will do it's level best to defend them, it's a canine trait called loyalty. My Yorkshire Terrier did a remarkable job at repelling threats to me on our various adventures. Was she actually a useful protection dog? No.
A toy poodle deterred a break in for his elderly owner by standing firm and barking his fool head off. Two Doxies scared off a cougar. The list is endless.
A GSD barking like a crazy thing will deter all but the most determined of aggressors. But MOST will give up if challenged. That's just a fact. It's what makes the good ones hard to find. At best only one or two pups in a planned litter show preliminary aptitude for man work, and most of those are going to wash out in training. The chances of a pup not specifically bred for it showing any talent are slim and the idea that they will ever excel at it are almost laughably small. 
However, dogs are odd. A dog that has no real talent for apprehension can make it's mark IF all other factors line up. 
A dog that lacks discernable aggression and prey drive MAY pull it off if it has sufficient bond with it's handler, and enough loyalty and protective instinct to override it's lack in other areas.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The dog that is being spoken about in regards to apprehension work can’t be judged via an online description. If showlines breeders only bred for confirmation the dogs would most certainly be unfit to live in any kind of family setting. There are other traits that are needed to be a successful in showing it’s not one physical trait- confirmation. In regards to a good detection dog -Good hunt drive, good play drive, trainability, environmental soundness, strong nerves to work under pressure bounce back from all kind stress, prey drives, stamina, work ethic, focus as not to be side tracked , clear mindness , and stability are what is important in that line of work. There are many showlines that do sars work, cadaver work and a good detection dog is worth its weight in gold. A good dog is good dog. The world is big.
Local - fallen K9 apprehension and narcotics.








Rocky, fallen Riverhead police dog, mourned at funeral


The town police department received an outpouring of support from the community after the death of Rocky, who had been with the department since 2011.



www.newsday.com












K9 Rocky


K9 Rocky was killed in a vehicle crash near the intersection of West Main Street and Raynor Avenue as his handler responded to a vehicle pursuit at approximately 2:30 a.m.




www.odmp.org


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@selzer there is one way to settle it...come back and update the forum when the dog gets a bite!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I did’t say the dog wasn’t a good detection dog and your description of his apprehension skills support he should not have been certified as a apprehension dog. You said the dog only bites if the decoy is running away. Totally consistent with decoy work at any trial/show for WGSL dogs in the protection phase. Your description clearly infers the dog could easily be run. Yes, I think because the dog is a showline dog he is no good for man work because he was breed to win conformation shows which require only playing at bite work. The dogs at Germany’s BSZS are an embarrassment in bite work.


I didn't say that at all. The guy was telling me that he had a suspect out of his car and told the other officer not to worry if the guy runs because the dog will go, and will take him down if he runs. The dog hasn't had a bite yet because he hasn't been on the job long enough. That's all. He bites the trainer, who trains all the dogs for our sheriff's department's program. And he obviously qualified during the certification.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I’m not belittling detection work and show line breeders breed primarily for conformation. As I said, a good detection dog only requires good food or prey drive and decent nerves. Higher prey drive, hunt drive and possessiveness definitely help and are not typical of WGSL’s. I am saying it sounds like the dog should not have been certified for apprehension.


I don't know about American Show Lines though I have been a member of a club, whose dogs were primarily American Show lines. Conformation is how well the dog matches the standard. The first thing in the standard is not the slope of the back or the color of the coat or the angle of the croup. The first part of the standard is temperament. 

With the West German Show Line dogs, to be bred they need a show rating where they are tested for temperament/protection on the day of the show. The are individually Koered, which is where a judge writes up a description of how your dog matches each part of the standard, and then is given a rating, KKl1 means the dog's Koer rating is suitable for breeding for life. But they may also be suitable for breeding buy need to repeat the Koer when they are more mature, in a year, maybe every year. Without the Koer, pups out of them cannot get the right kind of papers. The dogs need to have a schutzhund/IPO1 or Herding title if they are under a certain age, and the following year SchH/IPO3. The dogs have to run alongside a bicycle for 12 miles without any sign of tiring. Then they need hips, elbows, dna etc. So temperament and drive/energy is definitely "bred for" with the GSLs. It is possible that with showing as much as show dogs do, show breeders are looking for dogs that are easier to be handled by a variety of people. 

Actually, what I am doing at this point is rotating my dogs with a friend of mine who takes them for a few weeks to a month because she wants to use them with her program working with developmentally challenged people. The dogs need to be handled by people and dogs. I am a fan of the German Show line dogs because they have the capability to be an all-purpose dog. Two of the V-litter were assessed for police work, both would have been fine, the one went for that, the other is working this other program with my friend. Another of that litter has become a service dog to a boy with CF.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

But the standard is BS with the high lines. Have you ever watched any video of the protection test of the high lines at the BSZS?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Look at the helper work. They jump back to draw the dog into a prey bite, have no presence and don’t actually hit the dog with the stick because otherwise, so many dogs would fail, yet they all get a rating of pronounced courage.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I don't know about American Show Lines though I have been a member of a club, whose dogs were primarily American Show lines. Conformation is how well the dog matches the standard. The first thing in the standard is not the slope of the back or the color of the coat or the angle of the croup. The first part of the standard is temperament.
> 
> With the West German Show Line dogs, to be bred they need a show rating where they are tested for temperament/protection on the day of the show. The are individually Koered, which is where a judge writes up a description of how your dog matches each part of the standard, and then is given a rating, KKl1 means the dog's Koer rating is suitable for breeding for life. But they may also be suitable for breeding buy need to repeat the Koer when they are more mature, in a year, maybe every year. Without the Koer, pups out of them cannot get the right kind of papers. The dogs need to have a schutzhund/IPO1 or Herding title if they are under a certain age, and the following year SchH/IPO3. The dogs have to run alongside a bicycle for 12 miles without any sign of tiring. Then they need hips, elbows, dna etc. So temperament and drive/energy is definitely "bred for" with the GSLs. It is possible that with showing as much as show dogs do, show breeders are looking for dogs that are easier to be handled by a variety of people.
> 
> Actually, what I am doing at this point is rotating my dogs with a friend of mine who takes them for a few weeks to a month because she wants to use them with her program working with developmentally challenged people. The dogs need to be handled by people and dogs. I am a fan of the German Show line dogs because they have the capability to be an all-purpose dog. Two of the V-litter were assessed for police work, both would have been fine, the one went for that, the other is working this other program with my friend. Another of that litter has become a service dog to a boy with CF.


I am sorry, but I don't understand how such a young dog was certified. I have two local friends who train the local PD and SO and they would never allow a 14 month old (basically) puppy to be certified.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Look at the helper work. They jump back to draw the dog into a prey bite, have no presence and don’t actually hit the dog with the stick because otherwise, so many dogs would fail, yet they all get a rating of pronounced courage.


We can all look at these, find the worst of the worst, and proclaim from our arm-chairs that they are garbage. I don't do IPO or PP or bitework at all. Don't care about it. I do know that there are some things I don't do with up and coming stud dogs. Like, I don't punish them for humping a female. I don't egg them on, but I don't discourage because I don't want a dog that won't breed a bitch unless I am not there watching. 

My guess is that a dog raised for the show ring may be raised somewhat differently than a dog whose primary purpose is going to be PPD or IPO. For instance, you start building drive with them as whelps in the litter with flirt poles and playing tug, whereas, a show dog might start at 8 weeks, getting run over by judge-substitutes who will put their hands all over them and check their berries. When the deputy came to assess the pups, one of them, probably Villain, jumped up with his giant toenails and dug into my arm. Hurt like heck, but I didn't react at all. That dog's job may be to jump on people. So I am not going to dissuade him from jumping up. On the other hand, I did nothing to build drive or increase confidence as one might do by letting the dog win at tug. None of that. The dogs did not get that burst of confidence that pups get at 8-10 weeks when they leave the dam and litter and have to sink or swim. The dog made it, without all the helps, the special socialization people do, to counter the temperament tests that an informed puppy buyer might try. So maybe these judges are judging dogs who they know are basically raised as show dogs. Maybe they understand the difference that environment might cause, I don't know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sitstay said:


> I am sorry, but I don't understand how such a young dog was certified. I have two local friends who train the local PD and SO and they would never allow a 14 month old (basically) puppy to be certified.
> Sheilah


No idea. Except that the dog was selected by the sheriff's department trainer, trained with the sheriff's departments K9 trainer, and was certified at the end of November. He was born in September, and they got him when he was 10 months old. It may have 8 months, but most of the pups were homed at 10 months, and these were selected all around the same time. Viking and Villain were the two I thought might be good candidates. Originally the handler/owner said he would be certified in January, so I was surprised that he certified in the end of November. But he is.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It has nothing to do with how they are raised. If you watch the BSZS video you can see a clear lack of commitment and confidence. Just like a GSD from working lines would never place well at all based on SV conformation judging, a GSD from WGSL’s lacks the genetics to do apprehension work. Why do you think you never see any WGSL dogs at the BSP? The split has become drastic. It is hard enough to find a working line GSD with good health and genetics with the capacity to become a police patrol dog. So many have been bred for IGP and have over the top prey drive and lack aggression and correct nerves. Health issues are prominent due to over and poor breeding practices such as big name IGP dogs to other big name IGP dogs. If you can't see the overt lack of working character in the BSZS video, that is simply denial.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It has nothing to do with how they are raised. If you watch the BSZS video you can see a clear lack of commitment and confidence. Just like a GSD from working lines would never place well at all based on SV conformation judging, a GSD from WGSL’s lacks the genetics to do apprehension work. Why do you think you never see any WGSL dogs at the BSP? The split has become drastic. It is hard enough to find a working line GSD with good health and genetics with the capacity to become a police patrol dog. So many have been bred for IGP and have over the top prey drive and lack aggression and correct nerves. Health issues are prominent due to over and poor breeding practices such as big name IGP dogs to other big name IGP dogs. If you can't see the overt lack of working character in the BSZS video, that is simply denial.


Chip, I didn't watch your video because my computer likes to crash. I am not hearing you because you are saying one thing, and I am seeing another thing in the real world. Maybe it's regional. Maybe it's the difference between urban and rural. Out here, our k9 departments are run mostly on donations and the K9 officers equip their dogs completely. The insert for the cruiser, that was up to the officer to raise the funds. There was some stink about the guys wanting to get paid for their training time some years back. Not sure how that went. Maybe in larger departments with bigger budgets, they can go to K9-specific breeders who provide green dogs or trained dogs, with all the bells and whistles, and the price tag to go along with, in a variety of flavors: Dutch Shepherds, Malinois, Working line GSDs, etc. But my boy is not the only GSL dog out there doing the job of a K9. .


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> If you can't see the overt lack of working character in the BSZS video, that is simply denial.


Unless one hasn't seen the WL trial equivalent. There really is not much comparison...

And because I don't participate or regularly follow these competitions, but have noticed a HUGE void between what they are doing, is there a completely different set of "rules" for SL dogs VS WL dogs? Or is that that walking down a rope to a single tripod/hide typical of a IGP 1? I have only seen it with SL dogs... Not that I'm well seasoned LOL!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Selzer,
WGSL dogs are more expensive for all the wrong reasons than working line dogs. It sounds like you are saying the K-9 departments around you can't afford to have a quality program which would explain the use of show line dogs (probably washed out of conformation for some reason) for apprehension. Regarding your comment about cherry picking the worst of the worst on the BSZS, IMO, they all are the worst of the worst.
tim-Yes, there are a different set of rules. At the protection test at the BSZS, the decoys are told to go easy on the dogs because they know they will be run. You can clearly see how the decoy treats the dogs with kid gloves. The heeling is horrible and instead of disengaging by heeling away after outing, the handler frantically grabs the dog and pulls him away. Bad training and poor genetics for working dogs, which they aren't. The SV and show line people have only harmed the breed and it is about money not concern for the breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ah, nothing like a little more show line bashing first thing in the morning...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> Unless one hasn't seen the WL trial equivalent. There really is not much comparison...
> 
> And because I don't participate or regularly follow these competitions, but have noticed a HUGE void between what they are doing, is there a completely different set of "rules" for SL dogs VS WL dogs? Or is that that walking down a rope to a single tripod/hide typical of a IGP 1? I have only seen it with SL dogs... Not that I'm well seasoned LOL!


That isn’t IGP. That is part of the breed survey. The rules for that are different. It’s not line exclusive. Here is a working line doing one.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The show lines from that video aren’t examples of the best working show lines. Here is one competing at WUSV.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Selzer,
> WGSL dogs are more expensive for all the wrong reasons than working line dogs. It sounds like you are saying the K-9 departments around you can't afford to have a quality program which would explain the use of show line dogs (probably washed out of conformation for some reason) for apprehension. Regarding your comment about cherry picking the worst of the worst on the BSZS, IMO, they all are the worst of the worst.
> tim-Yes, there are a different set of rules. At the protection test at the BSZS, the decoys are told to go easy on the dogs because they know they will be run. You can clearly see how the decoy treats the dogs with kid gloves. The heeling is horrible and instead of disengaging by heeling away after outing, the handler frantically grabs the dog and pulls him away. Bad training and poor genetics for working dogs, which they aren't. The SV and show line people have only harmed the breed and it is about money not concern for the breed.


Chip you said yourself your own dog's heeling was poor and you had to physically pull him off the decoy so why criticize these dogs for the same?

"In the protection, the heeling went to **** and it was all I could do to keep him at heel, but heeling isn’t scored in the PDC protection. So control in the protection significantly decreased and a few days before the trial we started to have an issue with outing for the first time. You are allowed to give the out command three times and if you dog doesn’t out you are DQ’ed. You are allowed to disengage your dog after the out in the PDC by pulling him away which I took advantage of. "

These people in this video had more control over their dogs entering into the preparation for protection than you had of yours, who was walking in on his hind legs in the video.

Who knows of Selzer charged the PD for this dog or donated it? The PD thought the dog was worth using and you weren't there and have never laid eyes on it. 

What you're saying about show lines isn't altogether untrue-- they are not being bred for the same traits as WLs by and large. But why begrudge Selzer this apparent success in placing her dog? Why not just hope the dog has a good career. I don't think she even shows her dogs in conformation, she does some AKC events but WGSL almost can never get anywhere in AKC conformation, so I don't think this dog is a conformation washout.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I have seen showlines at club that are capable. Not sure what the breeder would say about their dogs going into personal protection work though I do believe she has placed some in that kind of work. 
The one I have specifically seen at club seemed like a very nice, strong dog:





Bane aus Gerstbrei


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Bane aus Gerstbrei




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Though some would say less than normal, some showline breeders are still breeding for true working traits.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The working line gsd and Belgian malinois and crosses working are more widely chosen for the police and military. It certainly doesn’t mean that wgsl are not used. The video though does not prove wgsl would not make a good protection dog. Are those handlers the actual owner of the dogs. Do those dogs just live in kennels? I did not watch the entire thing. It shows the different drives and speeds between the lines in getting the job done.

Wgsl police k9 next town over next state they are not as common but certainly not hard to find- New Britain Herald - Berlin police mourning loss of retired police K-9


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

CBG,
That is what training is for. My dog’s heeling is vastly improved and no issue with outing. I encourage you to look at the recent video of my dog I posted. What value do you see in the WGSL's with the breed being bred to be a working dog whose purpose was deliberately shifted by the founder from a herding dog to a police and military dog?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The Martin Shepherd


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

CeraDean said:


> ...Though some would say less than normal, some showline breeders are still breeding for true working traits.


But that is not possible because true working traits have been eliminating from the show line gene pool due to breeding away from them in favor of color and a conformation type that is not conducive to a working dog. The show line dog in the above video being handled by Balabanov could not keep his rear legs coordinated when he was being driven.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

*Fight Drive in Dogs*
by Ed Frawley
I assume that anyone interested in this question has some understanding of the drive necessary for protection work. If you need more information, go to the article on my website about it.
My definition of FIGHT DRIVE is this: “A dog has fight drive when his protection work carries the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. A dog with good fight drive is willing to engage a helper or suspect in every circumstance, under every condition regardless of training equipment being present or not being present. A dog with fight drive knows he can win every fight with a human that he get into. He is ALWAYS willing to carry the fight to the suspect.”
Fight drive is not something a dog can be trained to have. It is a genetic part of the dogs make up. A dog either has it or he does not. American bloodline dogs (German Shepherds, Dobes, Rots) have zero fight drive.
German Show bloodline German Shepherds have little to no fight drive. If one ever finds a German Show Bloodline animal with a little fight drive, it is not enough that dog can genetically reproduce itself.

​


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Man has changed this breed since it’s inception to fit their needs at the time. The split is inevitable - as some condem, some improve and some choose the dog they want and need.

It is a real generalize and false statement to say ALL dogs of a generalized line do not have fight drive or what they can produce unless one actually can evaluate what the dog produces and experience what the dog is truly capable of to see their mix of drives bring that all to light. I can not wait to hear about Selzer’s dog and the journey he will have.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is a big divide between show, sport and working camps. Working dog trainers don't care about looks, lines, pedigrees, kennel names, titles. They take the dog in front of them, assess the dog for its genetic strengths and weaknesses and then wash the dog or train the dog. 

@Chip Blasiole how many working dogs have you handled on the street or in the sandbox? 

Every soldier can't be MSG Gordon. Every Marine can't be Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock. Every dog can't be Arko or Berry. Almost every working dog is just good enough to do the job. Just like almost every officer. That's the important thing to the department, to be good enough. Drug busts fund departments, not apprehensions. A "substandard" dog, according to you, can still serve a purpose, save lives, make money, and give capability to a department that they wouldn't have without that team.

Our goal should always be excellence, but the reality of it is that there are very few that hit that mark.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My point is there is no possible goal of excellence or anything near it in terms of what the breed was bred for with the show lines.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> CBG,
> That is what training is for. My dog’s heeling is vastly improved and no issue with outing. I encourage you to look at the recent video of my dog I posted. What value do you see in the WGSL's with the breed being bred to be a working dog whose purpose was deliberately shifted by the founder from a herding dog to a police and military dog?


Sure, I agree, everybody should be training to improve their dog. I just didn't understand why it was such an apparently huge flaw in the show line video but when your dog did the exact same thing it wasn't? 

What value do I see in show line dogs? Well, I believe there are many more purposes for the German shepherd dog than just police and military. My biggest love of the german shepherd dog comes from the ability of the dog to adapt to so many different jobs, lifestyles etc. There is a WGSL that is very competitive in agility around here. Agility is a super popular dog sport around here. 

I don't disagree with you on some of the points you make-- I think it is true that some show line breeders are not preserving the traits necessary to do police work. In fact a WGSL breeder told me while visiting her dogs that that breeder had "longsince weeded out the dogs with true aggression and sold them off to police departments" (paraphrasing by me something that was said to me maybe three or 4 years ago). As it wasn't something that breeder wanted to produce. What happened to the dogs that went to PDs from that program I don't know.

I hear that there are WGSL breeders still breeding dogs with pretty good ability. And unlike you, I believe that there is absolutely a place for the German Shepherds who don't have the necessary aggression to really want to fight the man.

I like to hear about all types of breeders doing as many different things as they can with their dogs and bettering the breed as much as they can. I know of an ASL breeder who is trying to bring back working ability to ASLs which I think is great. It probably needs to be done. I guess my bottom line is that we should be focused on things like that rather than "your type of GSD is just terrible and has no place in the world" philosophy. LOTS of people are very happy with their non working line GSDs

Selzer's dog got certified for a PD, why can't we just be happy for her and the dog and wish them the best. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn't but it sounds as thought they are happy with the dog currently so what's the point of trying to trash that straight out of the gate ??


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"Man has changed this breed since it’s inception to fit their needs at the time. "

Exactly.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Regarding the heeling, the dogs in the video were German National conformation Championship. Different than the entry level of a sport. I would hope at that level the obedience would be much better but they don't care about anything but conformation. The protection and obedience are a necessary evil.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "Man has changed this breed since it’s inception to fit their needs at the time. "
> 
> Exactly.


I don't think that quote is referring to taking a working breed and turning it into a conformation breed. If it is, the need is profit.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is there any such thing as a "conformation breed"? I don't think so. Dogs should have correct conformation if they are being bred, period.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the heeling, the dogs in the video were German National conformation Championship. Different than the entry level of a sport. I would hope at that level the obedience would be much better but they don't care about anything but conformation. The protection and obedience are a necessary evil.


Why would you look at a conformation show for high level obedience?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Because the show people want to tout the show lines as having working ability which infers trainability and it is all a ruse.Why do they have to have IGP titles and how can they pass based on their lack of performance?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Because the show people want to tout the show lines as having working ability which infers trainability and it is all a ruse.Why do they have to have IGP titles and how can they pass based on their lack of performance?


It’s a conformation show. Those dogs aren’t there for their working ability or obedience training. I’ve never heard anyone say that.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Then why do they have a protection test that requires obedience? It is a working breed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> Why would you look at a conformation show for high level obedience?


I think I tend to look at it in pretty similar terms. I like the way there's a clear difference in the 2 lines. I think that helps preserve both. There's some crossover here and there, but I just don't try to compare the two very often and I've seen and met dogs from both sides I like and don't like.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"Helmut Raiser from the central German town of Hannoversch Münden is one of the breed's leading critics. It's a pitiful sight "when a dog doesn't carry its tail held high, and constantly walks around with its rear end tucked in, as if a brick were hanging from its testicles," the dog trainer wrote in the Austrian dog lovers' magazine Wuff."
Raiser won the BSP four times.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"In the 60’s, especially in the SV, there started to be show dogs. They decided to have protection in the Siegerhauptzuchtschau in Mannheim. The president of SV Dr. Funk then made the protection test, but the dogs couldn’t even handle that. There were 2 dogs from the working lines and they were supper. So, Bodo v. Lierberg was first and his brother Bernd was 3rd. I was there in that show. At that time I was 15 or 16 years old and I brought a female to the protection. This female made a super protection. After that the show people started training their dogs for protection and it became a little bit better. Then came a new president Dr. Rummel, and the protection level went down. At that moment more politics came in. With politics, money, and ego, Walter and Hermann Martin ruined the German Shepherd breed. In my opinion, these 2 brothers also caused the split between the show lines and working lines. That was the beginning of the end of the German Shepherd. Dogs that were too big, hip problem, elbow problems, health programs all came out, too much line breeding. For the sport and police work, most people started going to the working lines because there was nothing else in the show lines anymore." Koos Hassing Tiekerhook Kennel


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## Lukas77 (May 2, 2020)

Of course there could be some individual GSDs from showlines who are good workingdogs/protectiondogs, but you tend to get what you breed for I guess. On the other hand there are plenty of dogs from "sportlines" who are starting to look more like showdogs and are breed more for sporttraits than a nice balanced character.
Here is a policedog from showlines with a succesfull career as a policedog in some demo with a newsreporter,

https://www.facebook.com/eskilstunakuriren/videos/här-fäller-polishunden-imre-eskilstuna-kurirens-reporter/10155021452772443/

Trönderjyckens Imre

Here is another who competed in worldchampionship and looks better in protection than most pure workinglines,






Liliendahl Santo


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

check them out at the German dog shows/Shut hound in Germany. They are trained in protection so yes they can be as long as they have a good mind/breeding etc.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This dog is trained in schH/IGP protection. Do you think he would be a good protection dog?





What does having a good mind even mean?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Lol


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> Why would you look at a conformation show for high level obedience?


I have no idea what this thread is about or who you are asking but....

I've been to a couple of SV conformation shows and watched show lines slip their leads, run around having the time of their life with zero recall or down command knowledge until someone manages to lure them in to catch them or tackles them. Their epiphany of total freedom is a beautiful thing to watch.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I have no idea what this thread is about or who you are asking but....
> 
> I've been to a couple of SV conformation shows and watched show lines slip their leads, run around having the time of their life with zero recall or down command knowledge until someone manages to lure them in to catch them or tackles them. Their epiphany of total freedom is a beautiful thing to watch.


That made me laugh. That’s so embarrassing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I have no idea what this thread is about or who you are asking but....
> 
> I've been to a couple of SV conformation shows and watched show lines slip their leads, run around having the time of their life with zero recall or down command knowledge until someone manages to lure them in to catch them or tackles them. _*Their epiphany of total freedom is a beautiful thing to watch.*_


My Rott broke out of his crate at training one night and ran around meeting everyone there before I had a clue.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> My Rott broke out of his crate at training one night and ran around meeting everyone there before I had a clue.


That has happened to me. Also pretty embarrassing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> My Rott broke out of his crate at training one night and ran around meeting everyone there before I had a clue.


And they are just so happy to be free that it takes 15 minutes before someone thinks to catch the dog!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> And they are just so happy to be free that it takes 15 minutes before someone thinks to catch the dog!


And it wasn't me that caught him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> And it wasn't me that caught him.


#158,268 in Ways a Dog Keeps us Humble.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The first bite was reported this morning. I haven't talked to his owner yet, because we are on opposite shifts, but hopefully I will hear about it tomorrow. This is exciting for me. I love hearing about the dogs getting loose and running about. Since I only show in obedience and Rally, our dogs are off-lead part of the time in the ring, but outside of the ring, that is frowned upon. I think a lot of conformation people think that if they teach the to heel, or obedience, it will keep them from gaiting ahead of them and pulling on the lead. You would think they could train the dog to forge ahead or heel. I dunno. When I am training a dog, we go on walks and we heel across streets. We sit before crossing. The rest of the time the pup is generally allowed to do anything but pull my arm out of the socket. Ring time is so short anyway, the dog is never ready to be off the heel while we are in there. By the time the dog is well-seasoned, we can heel all over town off lead.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> My Rott broke out of his crate at training one night and ran around meeting everyone there before I had a clue.


Someone let a Dobe patrol dog out of the truck on a picket line and he ran around biting everyone, including his handler, for 15 minutes before he was caught. Would have been nice if he just socialized. Lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I finally talked to him, and he was really happy because the dog found drugs, tracked this guy down, and engaged in the resisting arrest by biting the guy first on the leg, but also on the hand, all in one shift. He was called to back up the sheriff's dept. with the dog on a traffic stop, and the dog went around the car and indicated, and they found all kinds of stuff in there. He told me of a guy driving suspiciously and when he went to pull him over the guy ran. He chased and the guy wrecked the car. He pulled over and got the dog out, because the guy then ran. And for some reason, some fencing, he had to go back and lost sight of the guy, he put the dog on the footprints and the dog tracked the guy through some back yards, and found him and that is where the altercation happened. The dog is still a puppy. I guess for a first bite, a bite without the equipment, a lot of dogs just stop, or will just bark at the guy. Villain didn't.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I finally talked to him, and he was really happy because the dog found drugs, tracked this guy down, and engaged in the resisting arrest by biting the guy first on the leg, but also on the hand, all in one shift. He was called to back up the sheriff's dept. with the dog on a traffic stop, and the dog went around the car and indicated, and they found all kinds of stuff in there. He told me of a guy driving suspiciously and when he went to pull him over the guy ran. He chased and the guy wrecked the car. He pulled over and got the dog out, because the guy then ran. And for some reason, some fencing, he had to go back and lost sight of the guy, he put the dog on the footprints and the dog tracked the guy through some back yards, and found him and that is where the altercation happened. The dog is still a puppy. I guess for a first bite, a bite without the equipment, a lot of dogs just stop, or will just bark at the guy. Villain didn't.


Way to go, Villain.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I’m not surprised by Villian’s success. Wgsl as k9 officers is not really such a great myth as people make it out to be.

My police trained gsd would jump into any car that had an open door and just sit snd wait. We were at the park once and he was off leash. We were walking by an woman Who had her back door open to her car and he just jumped right in. The look on her face was priceless. I did not have to worry about him taking off being but only jumping into open car doors waiting patiently for a ride . Lol!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ha!Or indicating illegal substances


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Ha!Or indicating illegal substances


Very possible! I like the way you think!


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## Logun24x7 (Jan 31, 2021)

camnava314 said:


> Has anybody had a WGSL successfully trained in personal protection?
> 
> Look forward to hearing from you all that can share any related stories.


Not going to read through this whole thread, this is for the OP

Yes, your WGSL Dog could be a valid candidate for Protection Training I would look at its pedigree and how many generation removed from actual West German breading it is.

Unlike show lines in north america West German show lines must obtain a working title prior to being bred, either in herding or IPO (Protection Training)
Please understand however even in working lines only 7 pups out of a litter of 10 will have what it takes and half of them will wash out.

The fear here is if you get hooked up with a Trainer who's inexperienced or just likes your money its real easy to turn your Jedi into a Darth Vader that your entire family will fear, mistrust and hate to be around.

If you are looking for a sport for you and your dog to compete in or challenge your training capabilities, consider agility or advanced obedience

This is my Vet-Tech Daughter with her 13 month old Australian rescue after about 6 month of working with him ... 



We can't go to a dog park now without a crowd of people taking videos ...she's my superhero

***
West German show lines Standard
The most popular type of GSD in Germany, the West German show lines are bred to conform to the SV standard which also requires the dog to gain health clearances for hips and elbows and a working title (often herding or IPO) along with their show title prior to being bred. The "look" of this type is very specific and typically very uniform, most commonly presented as a black and red saddle back.
IPO= Schutzhund. Due to political reasons, Germany no longer calls protection sport “Schutzhund” and since it originated in Germany, the rest of the world followed suit.
What does IPO stand for? Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Logun24x7 said:


> Not going to read through this whole thread, this is for the OP


You probably should have


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## wfr3 (Jan 30, 2019)

camnava314 said:


> If you paid attention to my post, nowhere did i say I'm looking for a ppd. I did not choose my breeder with the hopes that i will have the perfect ppd. I chose her for completely different reasons.
> 
> And again. For the 100th time.. i was CURIOUS to see if ANYBODY OUT THERE had a WGSL that is trained in PPD.


I have a wgsl dog from the Czech Republic who is trained as a ppd. Got him at 12 months. He had/has the temperament for this work. I take this kind of dog very seriously. You take on significant responsibility when you have a dog like this. You are walking around with a serious weapon. Obedience and control are essential. That's said, my boy will attack on command or in defense of me. So, to answer your question, yes I have a wgsl dog trained in protection.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

"As for GSL, I never said she couldn't get a good one, only that if she gets wrong puppy in litter, there is chance of weak nerves. Furthermore, the few GSL dog breeders in Netherlands are producing a far different SL dog than you breed. Just as the SL dogs in Czech Republic( black and red) are stronger in temperament than Germany. Why?....because the culture in Netherlands and Czech Republic even with their SL dogs is maintaining high working traits instead of breeding for pet families." - @cliffson1


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wfr3 said:


> I have a wgsl dog from the Czech Republic who is trained as a ppd. Got him at 12 months. He had/has the temperament for this work. I take this kind of dog very seriously. You take on significant responsibility when you have a dog like this. You are walking around with a serious weapon. Obedience and control are essential. That's said, my boy will attack on command or in defense of me. So, to answer your question, yes I have a wgsl dog trained in protection.


...and you’re likely the one person in this entire thread that the OP would be interested from hearing from. it’s too bad, hasn’t logged on in 2 weeks.
@camnava314


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Hopefully they realized the world is bigger then this forum and went elsewhere to get information. They don’t have to do much searching. I think there are very few currently on this forum that actually own, owned an actual trained protection dog of any breed or line. It is amusing though when someone said they had a dog that is protection train a comment is made as if people don’t import dogs from other countries into their lines when it’s done all the time as are weak nerves dogs in any line.


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