# Living with a fear aggressive dog...



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

... How do you do it?

As much as I love Peone, living with her is so difficult. As a family pet she is fantastic, obedient, loving etc. But when people come over to visit she turns into a whole other dog, hackles up, barking, snarling - then after a few minutes she'll calm down, usually that's the end of it. But in tonights episode, my parents had some friends over and Peone did her usual crazy dog act and then settled down. Later in the evening one of the guests got up to go to the kitchen, getting up and going Peone was fine with him doing, however when he came back into passage she went insane again. My parents keep making excuses such as "she got a fright". I find it unacceptable, this person had been in our house for nearly 2 hours, there is no reason for her to get all worked up again! I'm stressed, I'm tired and very close to tears. Peone is only 5 years old, I don't know if I can put up with this for another 5+ years.

I've consulted trainers, had behaviourist in, I even had an animal communicator come over (everyone thought I was crazy with that one). I've tried all manner of positive training. Reward the good, quiet behaviour, have the guests drop treats on the ground, get them to feed her when she's settled etc. But yet we are making no progress. I hate having people over to the house because I can never relax.

I don't know what to do anymore, there is no possible way I can rehome her, she was passed around too much before I got her and it's not fair to hand her problems over to someone else. I also cannot face putting her to sleep, because then I've failed her








I just need to know how other people live with dogs like Peone.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

It isn't easy but maybe with some different managment tools things could get better.

First, you need to understand that Peone can't help the way she is. This is what Mother Nature gave to her and this is what she has to live with.

Second, you need to break down the behavior to understand it. It starts with FEAR, then aggressive because she feels threatened. 

Third is to try different managment things. Have your tried putting her on a leash when guests are over. Don't let her follow guest where they could meet in a small area where she feels threatened. The reason I mentioned the leash is a leash can work as an umbilical cord, security line. 

Another management thing is to try not to let her get into situations where she will feel threatened.


> Quote:however when he came back into passage she went insane again


 In situations like this you need to have her by you. She isn't capable of making decisions on who is safe and who isn't.

Management is the KEY for dealing with fearful or fear aggressive dogs. It isn't easy, but your choices are to have her put to sleep or learn to deal with it.

I am sorry if I am blunt and possibly upset you, but life didn't deal this dog a good hand of cards. It is up to you to try to make her life more comfortable.

Val


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

You know what struck me is your description of how stressful visitors are for you. I'm a newbie with dogs, but I can tell you horses absolutely KNOW your stress and react to it. I wonder if crating her when company comes could at least help that problem and give her a chance to observe that there's nothing wrong when company comes- and stop that feedback loop at least.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know what you are feeling in a way, but for me it is with smaller kids. I either put Onyx in her crate or will muzzle her if we have them around. She just doesn't know how to read the younger~ under 10 age if she doesn't know them so is a bit fearful around them, thus acts aggressive. I do NOT trust her, and will not put her in those situations until I can trust her. She has never bitten anyone and I want to make sure it stays that way. I think if I were to put a leash on her, it would make it worse for her. Have you read thru the other threads about this behavior in this section? There were many helpful posts, and books available on the fear aggressive dog. Good luck with Peone


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

Val - thank you for the suggestions. I realise that Peone can't help how she is, and that it's my responsibility to keep her out of situations that cause her fear. I've tried the leash before, she got very stressed that she wasn't allowed to go where she wanted, especially when Bonnie and Badgar can still roam around. S
he's a very sensitive dog, during clicker training when I'm trying to teach her new behaviours if she doesn't get the 'click' after a couple of minutes then she just shuts down - which is what happens when I put her on a leash and she can't wander freely. But if it's for her (and our guests) safety then it's something I'm going to have to work on with her.

Lucina - I thought of using a crate, but they completely freak her out, I don't know what happened to her before I got her with regards to crates, but she hates them - although it is something I can work on if I have to.

onyx'girl - Thank you







I'm going to have a proper search through this section about fear aggression.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Peopne sounds like a wonderful girl.. obedient and so loving. I can understand your frustration, even embarrassment! Pople look to us when our dogs go crazy, and it's a hard situation. We feel our dog's stress, we get overwhelmed too because stress transmits to the handler from the dog, nearly as much as stress travels from the handler to the dog. (does that make sense?) Anyway, I have a dog who loves everyone, but goes crazy on-lead when he sees another dog. It isn't fear aggression, it's frustration... but it seems similar. Anyway, Here are some ideas:

Try reading (it can't hurt..) books by Ali Brown. She writes about reactive dogs. 

There's a book out called Scaredy Dog that people here reccomend.

Emma Parsons has written Click to Calm. This method takes a looonnng time, but it helps very much. Yes, the fear will always be there for her to a degree. But, this can help make things manageable for you both. 

Take deep breaths.. there is help out there. Have you asked at dog shelters, animal rescue homes? Remember, they get dogs off the streets that have enormous aggression problems. Before re-homing them, they often have trainers who specialize in fear aggression. They may have a solution with regards to a better trainer or behaviorist.

HUGS to sweetie Peone and yourself!


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

you definitely have to be on your toes with "fear aggression". i think the biggest favor you can do for them is let them know you are in charge, you will handle situations and protect, then she may come to relax a bit. no, it will never go away, and you do have to forsee any possible situaions that she is uncomfortable with. it can be managed with the right approach, etc.

debbie


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

It must be tough when damage was done before you get them. My hat is off to everyone that helps rescue animals. My contribution can only be financial, but I'm glad there's you folks in the trenches.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

Technically Peone wasn't a "rescue" as such, I got her from a breeder who no longer wanted her (wasn't doing well enough in shows I guess)... I don't really want to go into the details on a public forum, but if anyone is really interested in her background they can message me.

Patti - unfortunately our animal shelters around here are not so good as those in other countries, they're better than they used to be, but they still don't do proper behaviour assessments/training before dogs are placed.


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Very experienced people may be able to solve these problems but I had a dog like Peone and I was unable to be certain that my old dog Cisco (from about 9mo - she was teased without my knowledge) could be trusted despite a lot of rehabilitation - she was fear and property aggressive yet outside our houses she was trustworthy although I monitored those interactions. So, .... and it may be a cop out .... I chose to protect visitors and Cisco and I just had a secure place she could be which meant that she and visitors did not interact at all - sometimes it was simply the backyard, other times it was my bedroom or sometimes a gated off area. She did not need the hassle and I did not need the risk. She had a good long life (6 weeks shy of 17yo) and I still think of her with a great deal of love and affection. She did not need to meet my visitors and my visitors were coming to see me not my fearful dog so no-one was disadvantaged.

You just need to manage this situation and it really is not that difficult once you determine what you are going to do - Cisco was wonderful with family and once a stranger gained her trust her loyalty was absolute and they could do anything with her. I met my partner while I had Cisco and she was fine with him when we went for walks together but as soon as he came into the house she became protective. I had a low barrier on a doorway into the kitchen and one time he came over without knocking and Cisco decided he was an intruder. Well ... she got an immediate and definite correction (nothing violent or extreme just an immediate harsh "NO" and removal) and was totally banished to the backyard. After that, she saw that he was definitely above her (not that was necessarily the case







) and she accepted him totally - in fact, I sometimes got a bit envious of their loving bond even though I was glad that it was possible.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

What I think I am reading is Peone is pretty weak nerved, so you have a lot of fear going on not just fear aggressive. 

There are lot of tools out there if you can get them shipped to you, I will try to list some and explain how I would use it.

First you could start with something as simple as putting a T-shirt on Peone. It is part of a program called Body Wrap. It can give a dog comfort by having it on.

There are also products called Rescue Remedy and ComfortZone. Rescue Remedy you put a few drops in her mouth and some in her water. The ComfortZone is either a Plug in (may not work with your electricity) or the have a spray, which I put a bandanna on my dog that has the ComfortZone Sprayed on it.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3307+11260


Then there is a Program called Tellington Touch. It is a whole look and DVD of massage Touches and how they work, some calm and some heal. I do TTouch with my DeeDee when she is stressed, lots of head and ear work.
It is the TTouch set for dogs.
http://www.tellingtontouch.com/productsBooks.shtml#dogs

Now some may disagree with me, but you need to treat these weak nerved fearful dog differently than normal dogs. If you find that rubbing her face or ears lowers her fear stag, then that is what you have to do. The whole key with these dogs is to try to find some a program that keeps them in that happy place in their head.

For learning if she stressed she can't learn. S L O W things down and try without the clicker. My weak nerved gal can't stand the clicker. 

One question for you, was she kenneled at the breeder? If she was kenneled and you let her have run of the house that is a real stress situation when you bring people into the house.


----------



## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I like the idea of crating her when visitors are over. That and work on your own stress level.
If you have her out then she should be teathered.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

I am a total novice, but I have been able to help our wonderful adopted, fear aggressive Wolf. Check out the Yahoo shyK9s group. Its files are extremely helpful.

There are a few things to do that might help. One thing is to separate each step of the stranger in the house problem and address each one. Many dogs have a specific problem with passages, doorways, entries. Peone should have a safe place, maybe a back bedroom with a baby gate-although a crate is easier. Keep her happy and out of the action in her safe place until the guests come in and are seated (this works with two people-one to greet the guests and one to reward calm behavior of the dog.) When people are seated, let Peone out and again reward calm behavior. She does not have to take treats from people, it may be too much for her. You are working to change her idea about the risks guests pose, so you can treat her if you wish. Changing her mind does not mean she has to like everybody, just be able to relax.

What you describe about the guest just entering the passage might fall into the general desire of the dog to keep the stranger away. What we have done is simply occupy Wolf while people are walking around, until he is calm with the particular guest. Occupying for us means some ball tosses. OK, it is crazy that a guest wants to wash his hands and that elicits ball tosses for the dog, but you don't have to do it forever. 

With cooperative people (who don't stretch out their hands to pet Wolf's beautiful head), Wolf calms right down after the person comes in and both the dog and the guest can enjoy the evening. It may just take rewarding calm behavior and not putting Peone in a situation where she has to confront a stranger until she is confident that they pose no threat.

Wolf is one of the best things in my life and I am glad to work with him to learn who to accept.

Good luck,
Mary Jane


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

WiscTiger has absolutely THE best suggestions!! I would definitely try a TTouch DVD.... you can put it on your computer. If your computer has no DVD player, the library, a university, or friend's computer may allow you to watch and learn.

This is my next step for my own dog. He is not fear aggressive, but frustrated when he wants to interact and cannot due to being on-lead.. but, it has become a habit. Fear and it's responses can also become habits over time, overlaying the weak nerves and making it all seem worse... so, i want to try TTouch. I cannot yet afford the DVD but I am desperate now.. I suggest you try this with Peone. She loves you, you love her-- she will feel that and probably respond to the methods in TTouch.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Also, maybe this is like a person with an anxiety disorder.... not hinting at meds being the answer per se, but, maybe management techniques need to be geared towards, well, management of symptoms.. basicly, again, what WiscTiger said. Doggy version of yoga and massage every time a guest comes over and remains just outside of her zone.... and maybe too, try doing NILIF. It may just help her feel more secure and reassured, who knows?


----------



## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lucina... can tell you horses absolutely KNOW your stress and react to it. I....


GSDs do know when someone fears them. A well trained dog with no issues will look to it's owner for clues but a fearful dog or one that senses his owners nerves can act out like this. It is so difficult for humans to unlearn this nervous behavior that the dog will sense. Try deep breathing loudly enough the dog can hear you next time this happens and see if the dog will look your way.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Crating or removing her when people visit is the easiest solution & perhaps the best.

Acclimate her to the crate by coaxing her into it with either really good food or toys. Keep the door open initially so she hasn't been 'tricked' & she can learn that it isn't a threatening or bad environment.

She's so fearful that you should consider moving the crate from room to room. Each move s/b pleasant (food again & keep it open if she's initially uncomfortable) so that if you ever need to have it in a different room she won't come unglued at the interruption of her 'safe' routine.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

We've got people here tonight for my Dads birthday, only family that Peone already knows. They've only been here 5 minutes and it's already a disaster. I was about to put Peone on a leash when for some unknown reason my mother just opens the front door to let my Uncle and Aunt in (she wrongly assumed Peone was already under control), Peone gets away from me before I can grab her collar rushes up to my Uncle and bites him on the leg.
My parents decision is that she's being put to sleep. At this time I don't know whether I can convince them otherwise


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I feel sorry for you that the decision isn't up to you. I think she could get better but it will be a managment situation for the rest of her life.

There are some dogs that really can't be helped and letting them go is the kindest thing you can do for them. This type of dog lives in fear every day, that is very hard on a dogs brain.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Oh, Settican-- I am so very sorry. This was too many people distracting eachother-- and a bad thing happened. In hindsight, yes, she should certainly have been onlead before anyone came over, but it's in the past now. I am so very sorry for this. Is your Uncle okay? Is your Mom, Aunt, Dad and Uncle all aware of your efforts and plans to rehabilitate Peone? Are any of them on board with the idea, to back you up? Or, do they simply want her put to sleep? Is Peopne your dog-- or does your Mom get to decide what her fate is? Whatever happens, please keep us updated. I am sending you good thoughts.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

My parents have always been on board with the training/rehabilitating, my parents, especially my Dad, are very attached to her. However we've been dealing with her issues for nearly 3 years now, and it's just becoming too much.

Peone is, by her registration papers, my dog. However, being a student and currently without a part time job, my parents are the ones paying for food, vet bills etc. Being that I'm living with them I'll go along with whatever decision they decide. If I had the money to move out and take Peone with me I would, although even if I could I don't know where I'd be able to go with a fear aggressive dog that could potentially be a danger someone.

My Uncle is alright, although obviously shaken - no blood was drawn. Peone has been on leash all night (with me) and is not happy about it, she is seriously stressed. I'm in my room with her now so she can be happier and rest properly.

I'm hoping things will look better in the morning, however I do wonder sometimes just how happy Peone really is. She loves her food and she loves her walks, but she spends a lot of her time stressed. Rain = stress, Thunder = stress, strangers/doorbell rings = stress etc. I just need to raise my voice slightly in conversation with someone and she runs out the room with her tail between her legs. When Badgar barks outside she comes running up to one of us in a submissive manner. She doesn't know how to play, with us or with other dogs.

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses now to give me reason to put her to sleep. If my parents change their mind and let her live then you can be guaranteed that I'm going to keep working with her.


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

so sad...I am very sorry you are going through this...I now it must be miserable for both of you.


----------



## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

I guess I just don't see the problem with handling the company situation.

Just put the dog away when people come over. You say the dog doesn't like crates...well....she obviously doesn't like company, either. 

No one is eliminating the possiblility of having company come over...so why is it that the possibility of the crate is being eliminated?

At any rate, both the crate (possibly covered with a blanket) and the dog (crate or not) should be put into a seperate room where guests will not go, such as a bedroom, bathroom, back yard, where ever. The dog is afraid of people. Why is she being forced into situations where you know she will fail?

It is not the dogs fault that your uncle got bit. Why should the dog get put to sleep when she's repeatedly told you over and over she is not comfortable with people in the house? Why can't you just put her in a different room and avoid terrorizing the dog?

Yes, you should be looking into getting help for the dog, if at all possible by reading books, consulting with trainers, experts, whateve. But in the meantime, this bite should not have happened. It looks like someone in your house WANTED her to finally bite so that there would finally be justification to get rid of her. There is no excuse for what has happened. 

Sorry, I just don't get it.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

Yes, of course. That must be it. I WANTED my dog to bite someone so that I'd have an excuse to kill her. Because with her sitting next to be right now like a little angel it is so very easy.

It was an accident, a human error and the dog gets caught in the middle of it unfortunately, if it was just barking that would be tolerable, but she bit him. Peone has separation anxiety, lock her in a room and she'll do damage. Put her in a crate, on her own, with no one else in the room and she'll probably so damage to herself trying to get out.

I've already had trainers and behaviourists and animal communicators. I have about 10 books on behaviour and problem dogs. Clearly Peone fell into the wrong hands with me, but if I had not taken her from this breeder, then she would have been put to sleep three years ago along with her mother. I tried.

I was actually wondering how long it would take before someone came along with a comment like that, my "wonderful" day is complete.


----------



## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

Listen,

I commend you for all you have done for Peone. It must be horriby difficult to live with her and to have to be constantly trying to come up with ways to help her.

I hear what you're saying as far as her problems like doing damage to a room, etc...Still, when your choices are to have a dog tear up a room or bite your company....come on!

I am not looking to attack you, but just as I said. I don't understand. Why would you put the company at risk like that?


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

It wasn't my intention to put the guests at risk, she was going to be leashed from the beginning, but my uncle and aunt arrived early and I wasn't ready yet (yes, I'll gladly take responsibility). These are people she knows, not strangers like the guests in my original post. Normally when these people come over she has her usual bark and then she settles and is fine for the rest of the evening. 
As it is I spent the whole evening alone with her, because my Uncle is terrified of her now, he won't even touch Badgar anymore. Well, happy 60th birthday Dad, you sure won't forget this one


----------



## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

Ok, NOW I understand.

It was your MOM who let the company it without making certain that the dog was secured. Ah, sorry! Oh, sorry that I hurt your feelings.

I'll never be the person who says that no dog should be put to sleep. I have met some that were so pathetic that euthanizing indeed did appear to be the most humane thing. 

It is just sad that this incident happened due to poor communication in the house or whatever the case was. Maybe the dog *should* be put down if there is no way to help her live a happy life. Or perhaps a time of searching for a more suitable home where there was less of the comings and goings? She may just be the perfect dog for somebody if only the time was taken to look into it.

I find it sad that the dog's fate has been hastily decided because your mom let company in, knowing that the dog is a wreck over company.

And yes, I hear you when you say that the dog knew the people. 

My dogs *love* children and company. STILL....if we have company or a child's friend visiting, I always put the dogs away. I do let them greet the company, but I put them away to avoid comfusion...and the fact that I want to spend time with my company, not monitering the company's children who undoubtedly have no idea how to treat a dog.

Avoiding problems is always better and easier than trying to explain what happened after the incident occured. And hindsight is always 20/20.

Again, I'm sorry that I said you wanted your dog to be put down. 

I can see that you have put a lot of effort into your dog. I don't think I'd want to live with a dog like that, so I would be one to understand looking to re-home the dog or even consulting vets or trainers to determine if the dog's condition is so severe that medication or even euthanization would be best. 

You've come this far with her, is it possible to explore other options?


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

I am going to talk to my parents tomorrow about our options with Peone. I already gave a mom a mouthful about opening the door without checking that Peone was under control, and I feel bad about that because I hate fighting with my parents









I really don't think I could rehome Peone. She's been through so much already, she's attached to our family and our dogs, I think removing her from all this would only increase her insecurities, it took quite a few months before she really settled in here after we got her (and after that the fear issues showed). 

Hopefully tomorrow morning my parents and I can discuss this properly, before making any serious decisions.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree that you really can't re-home this fearful, anxious, insecure & phobic dog. It would be far kinder to have her PTS.

What does your vet think? Have you considered medicating her, if it's medically feasible? I'm not a big fan of that but when euthanasia is on the table it seems reasonable to try meds 1st if possible. (I believe they work best in conjunction with ongoing training/conditioning)

I hope that you can have a productive & friendly discussion with your parents where all options are openly explored. IF love alone could save a dog, Peone would be at no risk. Unfortunately the genetic burdens some dogs carry overwhelms any amount of love & training. Ultimately only you (& your parents) have the answers to whether her problems are insurmountable.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

Well, the bite on my Uncles leg wasn't as harmless as we all thought, he just didn't tell us because he didn't want to ruin the evening. Her bite did draw blood, my Uncle went for a anti-tetanus injection and won't tell us how much it cost so we can pay for it. He also said he won't tell anyone else in the family what happened.

I've tried talking to my parents and suggesting the crate, they seem kind of open to the idea, but they want to wait until the easter weekend is over before we discuss it properly. 

We've tried medication before (clomicalm) for a few months and it didn't make any difference. I know there are other things that can be tried, I honestly don't think my parents will be ok with permanent medication, but I will suggest it.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Why was her mother PTS? Is this a case of an unsolvable personality problem that was passed on to your dog?
I agree that this situation is tragic- but remember, if you do decide to put her down it wasn't because of this incident, or all the other incidents. It was because despite your best (and from the sound of it heroic) efforts you were not able to give this dog a happy life. IMHO this dog is suffering, and if you cannot alleviate it then you will be doing the dog a favor by putting it down. I am not in agreement at all that this is a matter of "why should the dog be put down when it wasn't his fault?" That is not the issue. It is not a punative decision.


----------



## Settican (Aug 12, 2001)

Peone's mother was put to sleep because the breeder couldn't find a home for her - I've since learned more about the breeder and her dogs there could have been more to the story, but I don't want to go into detail on a public forum.

Peone is a very loved dog and part of our family, it will not be easy putting her to sleep if that's what the result of our discussions end in.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

(((((((HUGS)))))))


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Settican
> 
> Peone is a very loved dog and part of our family


For the sake of the whole family, I hope very much that one of you can make the open-ended commitment to address Peone's fears. I did not appreciate the extent of separation anxiety+fear of strangers+long history of attempts to help her. It sounds daunting to me, but I am neither skilled nor experienced.

Like others here, I hope the best for all your family.

Mary Jane


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I honestly don't think my parents will be ok with permanent medication, but I will suggest it.


Permanent meds, if they work, beat permanent death, IMO. There are a number of different meds. I believe most work best when used with training/conditioning. If this is an option you should discuss it thoroughly with your vet if s/he is knowledgeable in this area (many vets aren't). It's also worth researching online.

My niece's dog suffers from separation anxiety. He's been on meds most of his life. She's had him off meds several times for some months but he eventually needs them again. He is an anxious, rather fearful soul. This can affect quality of life, but it would be wrong to categorize him as miserable or 'suffering'. He has a manageable mental illness. She's probably bonded with him even more closely b/c he's 'high maintenance' & requires a greater level of commitment than an easier dog.

You so obviously love Peone. I hope there is a 'happily ever after' solution for you. IF not, you have certainly given the situation a great deal of thought & consideration. IF you believe you must have her PTS, it won't have been a hasty or casual decision.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

You might read this story. It's about a fear aggressive dogs whose life was saved by the Ecollar. Http://loucastle.com/roma.htm


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I talked with my niece today. Her guy was successfully weaned from meds over a yr ago. She monitors him closely & recognizes he may need them again. He was among those dogs that definitely benefited from them. During his bad times he was too anxious to focus. Training was nearly impossible with very slooow, incremental progress & many, many setbacks.

Would medication benefit your dog? Maybe, maybe not, but if PTS is being discussed, it seems reasonable to consider the possibility of meds as a possible alternative.

You'd need the guidance of an experienced, highly qualified trainer & your vet (assuming your vet is knowledgeable in behavioral issues/treatments)


----------



## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm sorry, but I live with a dog exactly like this and never ONCE has it ever crossed my mind to kill him. You accept your dog for what it is and you manage it.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have to say that my fear-aggresive and dog-aggressive dog got his BH last year--and not from an easy judge
I truly believe what made all of the difference in him was mostly motivational obedience training. He just became more secure of himself and his situation and his trust in ME, the more we worked. If I had just left him as a "pet" I don't think his temperament problems would ever been overcome.
Mary


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

But you all have to remember that Settican's parents made the ultimate decision; she did what she could. Lish, your dog is NOT exactly like that, unless Settican's dog and your dog are clones in the truest sense of the word. We cannot judge how the dog really was, what they really did, even if we were present at the time. You don't know until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Some people have more time, resources, money, skills, experience, and tools at their disposal to work difficult dogs, and some people have little or nothing or they're in a situation where it will be completely unfair to the dog and to the people living around the dog. It's obvious Settican did what she could do and when it came down to it, gave her dog a WONDERFUL last day, something which the vast majority of dogs in this world do not get. 

Everyone's situation is different. It is clear this was not a person who gave up at the first sign of trouble. She faced her beloved pet's sentence with courage, honor, and love. The act is done, there is no sense berating her over a very difficult loss. This is, however, an EXCELLENT reminder that we MUST start with good genetics when breeding dogs and we MUST continue what a good breeder started and socialize and train like crazy. Peone is not the first victim and she will not be the last.

Settican, I am sorry to hear that Peone had to be put down.







She is free of whatever demons haunted her.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

People also need to remember that things are different in different parts of the world. There are some times, little to no resources that we in the US and Canada have.

Peone is at rest now.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMBut you all have to remember that Settican's parents made the ultimate decision; she did what she could. Lish, your dog is NOT exactly like that, unless Settican's dog and your dog are clones in the truest sense of the word. We cannot judge how the dog really was, what they really did, even if we were present at the time. You don't know until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Some people have more time, resources, money, skills, experience, and tools at their disposal to work difficult dogs, and some people have little or nothing or they're in a situation where it will be completely unfair to the dog and to the people living around the dog. It's obvious Settican did what she could do and when it came down to it, gave her dog a WONDERFUL last day, something which the vast majority of dogs in this world do not get.
> 
> Everyone's situation is different. It is clear this was not a person who gave up at the first sign of trouble. She faced her beloved pet's sentence with courage, honor, and love. The act is done, there is no sense berating her over a very difficult loss. This is, however, an EXCELLENT reminder that we MUST start with good genetics when breeding dogs and we MUST continue what a good breeder started and socialize and train like crazy. Peone is not the first victim and she will not be the last.
> 
> ...


This is the most thoughtful and respectful answer. I wish I could have said as well as you did. Nice job, Diana.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Was Peone PTS? I thought that was her mother. My sincere apologies if you (or your parents) had to make this agonizing decision & I've been babbling on like an insensitive lout.

Regardless...I know that whatever decision you've made, or will make, it's not easy. I know that you're concerned with everyone's safety & well being, including Peone. 

My own dogs, most from not great breeders, have been blessedly easy. Much of that is due to no more than the toss of the genetic dice. They got lucky & so did I.

Your situation is infinitely more difficult, with greater risks. My thoughts are with you. Peone has been very fortunate to have you.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Settican, I see that you finally had to make that decision. I am terribly sorry. IF I felt I had any right to judge you, I'd see a very kind, loving & concerned person struggling with the burdens of love & responsibility towards not only your dog, but also your family & community. You have done your very best with this. It was an impossibly difficult situation & you did your very best with it. 

(((HUGS)))


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

thank you dianam, beautifully said. sometimes when situations hit close to home we do forget that not everyone's circumstances are the same.

bless your soul, dear peone...rest in peace. and take good care samantha, i am still thinking of you.

katherine


----------



## czgsd (Jan 12, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I have to say that my fear-aggresive and dog-aggressive dog got his BH last year--and not from an easy judge
> I truly believe what made all of the difference in him was mostly motivational obedience training. He just became more secure of himself and his situation and his trust in ME, the more we worked. If I had just left him as a "pet" I don't think his temperament problems would ever been overcome.
> Mary


Mary makes a good point, with the understanding that every dog is different, and some are easier to control or rehabilitate than others. Building confidence (of dog and handler) and improving dog-human communication thru obedience training (and lots of practice) can work wonders in many situations, including greeting guests at home. Fear and lack of confidence/communication are a vicious cycle - dog is unsure what is expected, handler is afraid of what the dog will do and not sure what command is appropriate, dog senses handler's fear & uncertainty, etc. It's natural for a GSD to want to take control of situations in which his handler does not seem confident. 

I'm guessing that Setican may have panicked when the uncle came in too early, causing Peone to overreact (protection, fear, whatever). On top of that, the uncle may have shown fear, if people were shouting at the dog, etc. 

Teaching some basic commands and appropriate behavior in the house should be practiced with close family members, in nonstressful, well planned situations, until it is second nature for the owner and dog. Until that works (if it ever does), the dog should be kept in a crate or separate room when guests are expected or arrive, as recommended by others. It sounds as if time spent teaching the dog to enjoy being in the crate or separate room would be a valuable investment. There's lots of info out there on basic crate training. 

When did Setican say that Peone had been euthanized? Sorry if I missed it, but I only see that Peone's mother was PTS in the past.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Peone was PTS earlier this week.

I think this thread has run it's course. 

If anyone wants to start a thread about "Fear" based dogs in general it is always an interesting thread.


----------

