# 'I Want to Breed my Dog'



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

A video I made from my shelter visit today. 32 dogs/cats on the euth. list today. 

Near the end there's a clip of a female GSD. I'll post her over in the rescue section shortly.






In this video ALONE - not all the dogs in the shelter - JUST this video, there are: 
13 purebred dogs.
10 puppies.
18 pit bulls/pit bull mixes. 
Several of these dogs were/are on the list to be euthanized. 

For anyone who wants to breed their dog just because they're purebred, because they want more like them, because they want to let their child experience the miracle of birth, because they want their girl to have one litter before she's spayed, because they want to make a bit of extra money, because they're pretty, because people deserve to have a dog like him/her, because s/he's special, etc. 

For anyone who thinks that you have to go to a breeder to find a purebred, or that you have to go to a breeder for a puppy, or that shelter dogs are all mutts - they're not. 

Purebreds are turned in every single day. Puppies are turned in every day. Many get sick due to their weaker immune systems are put to death. 
Backyard breeders often turn in litters of puppies or kittens that they couldn't sell fast enough, or for the price they wanted. 

PLEASE don't breed your dog! Chances are quite high that this is the kind of place where they will spend their final days. (Especially if they're a pit bull or a Chihuahua!)
Don't shop - adopt!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Very sad. You can see the ones who has just lost hope. The ones who still get excited are saddening too because you just dont know! you cant save them all. That GSD broke my heart, she's so young still and still so hopeful. If i was in your area, that girl would be safe here as soon as i could get to her.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
Breeders of ALL breeds are making that choice. Their mission is to populate the world with GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE BREED. But the math is the same. Another dog must die to make room for the good example. Who will win the war? The proper breeders or the great majority of ignorant people allowing their dogs to breed(?) Who is to say one dog is better than the other? I loved my mutts just as much as my PB.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

God this made me cry........but it's a great video. Thanks for making it, Konotashi. 

I already knew about all the sadness in shelters (I often visit to give the cats and dogs their 'last love' before they're PTS), but it's a great eye opener to those that don't know about all the shelter animals and what happens to these beautiful creatures.


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

Heart breaking! The shelter near my house has just had 3 pregnant bitches from 3 different areas of the country brought in. A collie, a Shepherd mix and a Husky. The 3 bitches are just days away from having their litters and they were all dumped in fields. There is also at least 4 litters of 8 week old puppies waiting to be rehomed. Irelands shelters are over run with pure bred puppies atm.


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## Cetan (Oct 8, 2011)

It's sad. It really is. I can't understand what exactly the dog is feeling, but you can see it. The ones who are like "take me take me take me!" and the one who don't even bother to look, thinking "just another one passing through."

Unfortunately, I don't forsee a definitive end to the ignorant breeders doing what they keep on doing over and over. Nor do I see an end to ignorant owners getting puppies/dogs because "they're cute" and think they come pre-loaded with perfect obedience.

If there was an organization that regulated breeding and made it criminal for ignorant breeders to breed, definitely. Anyone who wants to breed for any personal gain, be it money, or any of the reasons mentioned by the OP, should not be allowed to.

I don't agree with prohibiting responsible breeders from letting animals breed though. I feel that the majority do their best to screen and make sure their pups go to a good home.

:shrug:


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Konotashi said:


> For anyone who wants to breed their dog just because they're purebred, because they want more like them, because they want to let their child experience the miracle of birth, because they want their girl to have one litter before she's spayed, because they want to make a bit of extra money, because they're pretty, because people deserve to have a dog like him/her, because s/he's special, etc.
> 
> For anyone who thinks that you have to go to a breeder to find a purebred, or that you have to go to a breeder for a puppy, or that shelter dogs are all mutts - they're not.
> 
> ...


YES, YES, YES & YES!!!!!! Congrats to you for putting this out on UTube! Along with everything else I am a pro photographer/videographer and I produce a great many of the promotional videos and programs for an area no-kill shelter. Your video is very sad in that it reflects the situation in all animal shelters.

Thanks!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

This broke my heart.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> Very sad. You can see the ones who has just lost hope. The ones who still get excited are saddening too because you just dont know! you cant save them all. That GSD broke my heart, she's so young still and still so hopeful. If i was in your area, that girl would be safe here as soon as i could get to her.


After reading your post, I decided I cannot watch the video. Your description of the dogs who lost hope and the ones who are just a few days away from doing so was just heartbreaking.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I've been in our shelter a few times, but I always leave crying. It's filled with happy dogs that just want you to come over and pet them. 

There are differences between your shelter and mine. Maybe it has to do with my shelter's policies. There are no purebred dogs in my shelter. I think they all go out to rescues. Also, every dog in my shelter is at the gate looking for attention. Rarely is one just laying there. It's very hard to resist, but it's impossible to take all of them home. 

I go in there to look for breeds I'm interested in, but like I said, no purebreds in my shelter.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

This just flat out made me cry. It's so hard to see those faces, you did a great job putting this together...


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## Six (Oct 16, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
> Breeders of ALL breeds are making that choice. Their mission is to populate the world with GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE BREED. But the math is the same. Another dog must die to make room for the good example. Who will win the war? The proper breeders or the great majority of ignorant people allowing their dogs to breed(?) Who is to say one dog is better than the other? I loved my mutts just as much as my PB.


On the other side, if there were no breeding programs there would be zero dogs. If all breeding halted we would have nothing. While I would like to agree with your sentiments it really is the owners fault, not the breeders. Irresponsible owners is the issue in a majority of the cases.


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## Zombina (Oct 21, 2011)

Almost cried 
I would take them all home if I could.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Excellent job. Aside from showing people the negative side of "I really want to breed my dog".....your video shows something positive. It was obvious how sweet those dogs were. They just wanted love. Tails were wagging. Attention was sought. Too often, people equate shelter dogs with dogs with issues. That is so untrue. Most of the time, it is the owners who surrendered the dogs who have issues.


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## Baron's Dad (Oct 19, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Excellent job. Aside from showing people the negative side of "I really want to breed my dog".....your video shows something positive. It was obvious how sweet those dogs were. They just wanted love. Tails were wagging. Attention was sought. Too often, people equate shelter dogs with dogs with issues. That is so untrue. Most of the time, it is the owners who surrendered the dogs who have issues.


Well said. I can't believe the amount of people who get a dog and don't interact with it, then complain it is unruly and give them up. If you can't, or are not prepared to commit to the dog, don't get it in the first place. My dogs aren't just pets, they're family members who bring joy every day. The sprinkling of bad is far outweighed!


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## DaveWallerCB (Jul 26, 2011)

This is sad. Wish we had the same outrage about children! CPS in every city in the US is over run. And though there not killed their spirits are, and many will live on institutions their whole lives.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Excellent job. Aside from showing people the negative side of "I really want to breed my dog".....your video shows something positive. It was obvious how sweet those dogs were. They just wanted love. Tails were wagging. Attention was sought. Too often, people equate shelter dogs with dogs with issues. That is so untrue. Most of the time, it is the owners who surrendered the dogs who have issues.


 
Well, to be fair, that's not to say that all these friendly dogs in this video won't/don't have their fair share of issues. It's true, though, that a lot of people surrender them when the issues the dog(s) have are beyond their understanding or want to take the time to fix.

Every shelter dog we've ever rescued have had their unique problems. We've had to work through them. But let me tell you - these dogs were ALL extremely willing to learn and just to be loved. My sister has a shelter pup right now that will throw himself into a sit because he's soooo willing to please her. He's learned fast, and most of the problems he had coming from the shelter have been curbed and/or fixed.

Alex was another situation, as most of you have seen, that had her fair share of issues. She was young, too, so she didn't have the chance to even develop worse issues. I had to work through them (and still do) but I was responsible enough to take the time and patience to work through these issues. A lot of people just don't want to have to deal with it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I appreciate the work you do with these dogs, and how you feel about it. I also agree that everyone who has a frivolous reason for breeding should be dissuaded, for the most part. But I think that each of those dogs have the person who dumped them to thank for their predicament. People buy dogs and then fail them. They take cute puppies and get tired of them. I do not see it as a breeder problem but an irresponsible owner problem.



PaddyD said:


> EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
> Breeders of ALL breeds are making that choice. Their mission is to populate the world with GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE BREED. But the math is the same. Another dog must die to make room for the good example. Who will win the war? The proper breeders or the great majority of ignorant people allowing their dogs to breed(?) Who is to say one dog is better than the other? I loved my mutts just as much as my PB.


There is a flaw in this reasoning, and that is the problem of supply and demand. Puppy mills do not produce as many puppies as they can, they produce as many puppies as they think they can sell. Sometimes they go over and sometimes they are under. But in general, they are producing as many of the each of the breeds that they think they can sell. 

If every pet owner refused to breed their pets, and every responsible breeder closed their doors and no longer bred their bitches, shelter numbers would decline slightly. But with the shortage of puppies would drive the cost of puppies up. Current puppy mills would increase their numbers, and more people would go into it. 

In the end, you would have accomplished something. You would have increased the number of puppy mill puppies being produced and decreased the number of puppies that come from people who have put thought and energy into the matings. Nothing will have changed the underlying problem, the fact that people get dogs and are not loyal to them. And while their might have been a temporary dip in shelter numbers, it would probably increase.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> There is a flaw in this reasoning, and that is the problem of supply and demand. Puppy mills do not produce as many puppies as they can, they produce as many puppies as they think they can sell. Sometimes they go over and sometimes they are under. But in general, they are producing as many of the each of the breeds that they think they can sell.
> 
> If every pet owner refused to breed their pets, and every responsible breeder closed their doors and no longer bred their bitches, shelter numbers would decline slightly. But with the shortage of puppies would drive the cost of puppies up. Current puppy mills would increase their numbers, and more people would go into it.
> 
> In the end, you would have accomplished something. You would have increased the number of puppy mill puppies being produced and decreased the number of puppies that come from people who have put thought and energy into the matings. Nothing will have changed the underlying problem, the fact that people get dogs and are not loyal to them.


 
I agree with this. Volunteering for the SPCA of Central Florida, I've learned something (among other things) that is important. It's part of the 'motto' and mission statement for the company. It basically says:

We would love to be out of a job. We would love to shut down this facility because there would be no need for it. But we know that will never happen. We work toward allowing these animals living happier lives. We work toward getting fewer and fewer. But we know that we will always, sadly, be needed.

It's sort of like saying that we should get rid of the laws, because then people wouldn't want to commit crimes. That's sadly not true, and we will always have a need for jails and prisons, and the corrections system. It's just a fact of life. Of course, these inmates are taken here because they did something bad, unlike the vast majority of animal control cases (only a few are surrendered due to aggression) which are surrendered because of other reasons not usually their fault, but the concept of eliminating something is somewhat the same. If I'm rambling and not making sense, I apologize!

Sadly, animals will be brought into these places, whether it be because someone has lost interest in the pet, someone can't take care of a problem that may have developed with the animal (either due to the person's lack of training/understanding of the dog, or the dog physically or genetically having an issue that arises), and these animals will more than likely be killed. Yes, it'd be great if the numbers decreased, but I just don't see that happening. What we can hope for is that the number of dogs/cats that get adopted goes up, regardless of how many animals are coming in.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Lauren, I have to stand by what I said. Maybe some dogs are surrendered to shelters, because the owners are unable to correct unwanted behavior. More frequently, however, I would say the owner doesn't even try. If the dog is not housebroken, doesn't know basic commands, hasn't been socialized, has no manners......TOTALLY the owners' fault. 

I see more animals surrendered because the owner is bored with them. They are too much trouble, cost too much money, take up too much time. Of course my all time favorite excuse... I am moving and can't take the dog. I hate those cities and states that don't allow dogs. I have only adopted one shelter dog. She is a PB GSD. She was 2 years old, when I adopted her. From day one, she was completely housebroken. NEVER had an accident in the house. She was not destructive. She could be left alone, uncrated, in the house. She was wonderful with my young kids (who she did not meet until she walked into our home.) 

Did she have issues? Well I guess we all have issues. Can't say I ever had a pet of any species that didn't have issues. People with unrealistic expectations, who want perfect pets, should purchase a stuffed animal. My shelter dog doesn't like other dogs. Not a big deal, because I don't have other dogs. It has always been quite manageable. Sometimes I think people make too much of issues. I think if an individual is the least bit dog savvy, he/she can select a nice dog from a shelter.

No matter where the dog comes from, there may be health problems or behavioral issues. Dogs are living things. Life ain't perfect.

Sorry for going off topic. But yeah - I'd adopt that little GSD girl from your video, in a heartbeat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My sister's kids got i-dogs for the elder's birthday this month. _Those_ dogs have issues. We were trying to eat dinner and the **** thing kept barking and barking. Seemed to stop, then again. All through dinner. They may as well of gotten a real one, LOL!


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Lauren, I have to stand by what I said. Maybe some dogs are surrendered to shelters, because the owners are unable to correct unwanted behavior. More frequently, however, I would say the owner doesn't even try. If the dog is not housebroken, doesn't know basic commands, hasn't been socialized, has no manners......TOTALLY the owners' fault.
> 
> I see more animals surrendered because the owner is bored with them. They are too much trouble, cost too much money, take up too much time. Of course my all time favorite excuse... I am moving and can't take the dog. I hate those cities and states that don't allow dogs. I have only adopted one shelter dog. She is a PB GSD. She was 2 years old, when I adopted her. From day one, she was completely housebroken. NEVER had an accident in the house. She was not destructive. She could be left alone, uncrated, in the house. She was wonderful with my young kids (who she did not meet until she walked into our home.)
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you on that one, as it is true that the majority do have problems due to the owners. However, there are also genetic problems that arise that people aren't capable of handling (or even health issues that aren't forseen, even with good medical care on the owners' part) and these people panic and don't know of rescues and the like where they can take their animals to be surrendered instead of shelters that will kill them. 

Am I saying that we shouldn't be upset that people drop these dogs and cats off here, and that the people aren't at fault or that the people are good and holy? Lord no. But I'm not saying that EVERY single person has a dog or cat with an issue that was brought on by the human. 

And I never said that EVERY single animal that comes out of a shelter has issues, either. I simply said that every animal that my immediate family has ever gotten has had issues that have needed to be worked through, and that a large portion of them will more than likely have these issues.

I don't condemn your point or say that it's wrong, I just wanted to add to it. I guess I just wanted people to know that these animals are great animals, but more than likely will have some issues (be it great or small) or some baggage that may have to be worked through. They won't be the 'clean slate' puppies that people purchase from responsible breeders.

Personally, I don't consider housebreaking, minor destruction, or not-the-best socialization 'major issues', but that's just my opinion. Most dogs need to be house-trained, will be a bit destructive, and probably not have a huge portion of socialization if they're at a shelter. But of course, that's not to say that they are wrought with issues, either. Even though we are no-kill, I consider the SPCA of Central Florida to be a shelter, as it is one. We are just lucky enough to have the support of the community to help provide funds to care for the animals so that they don't need to be euthanized.

In fact, it's a sad fact that breed-bans as well as apartment restrictions, death of family members that own the pet, and various other situations/issues happen and force some of the owners to put their animals in shelters. The ones that are aware of and have access to places like no-kill shelters and rescues are lucky enough to more than likely not have their animal killed. But yet we still condemn these people (even if they HONESTLY cannot keep the animal or something happened in the family that doesn't allow them to keep it), and say it's all their fault. Granted, I've seen quite a few drop off their animal, nonchalantly, saying 'he got too big' or something of the sort - but I have seen plenty of heart-wrenching goodbyes of people surrendering their beloved companion due to reasons that they cannot change. It's horrible. 

Granted, the above is all based on my volunteering at a no-kill shelter. It's obviously a bit different for those talking strictly about kill-shelters. But to be honest, most people I know don't even know about our local SPCA being a no-kill shelter (especially considering that it's the only no-kill shelter nearby, and for people around me it's over an hour's drive) and about rescues. 

I didn't shy away from adopting my baby because (even in the cage) she had issues - but I didn't adopt her simply to try and fix these issues, either. I adopted her because we made a weird connection the second we saw each other, and I knew that by getting an animal from a shelter (regardless of age) there might be a large chance of some baggage. I was right. She was potty-trained, and gentle. But she had some severe mental things that we had to work through and sometimes still do. It wasn't just lack of socialization - it was a severe lack of socialization. She almost attacked a dog - on more than one occassion, simply because of fear. She still has a time, sometimes, understanding what in the world the leash is. And she practically refused to step out of her crate from day one for almost four days.

Anyway.....I've rambled on quite long enough. I just wanted to say that it's sad that these animals end up in shelters, and that a large portion of them will come with baggage. But to say that in every instance it's the owner's fault that the dog is the way it is, and that's why it's in the shelter, is wrong in my opinion. I could be wrong, though. I just wanted to try and stick up (I guess, though I'll probably be bashed for it) for some that have to surrender their companions due to things out of their hands. Granted, I hate when they take them to the kill-shelters, but I guess we just need to better advertise rescues and no-kill shelters so they know of their options.

Go ahead people, bash me now.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Oh, and I apologize for really not making sense in the above post -__- 

I seem to have a heard time explaining things when trying to type them. My mind cannot translate to my fingers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rescues will often not take owner-surrenders. 

No-kill shelters will often not take owner-surrenders (if they are full). 

Kill shelters will often kill an owner-surrender on the same day. 

It depends on where you are. 

It is too bad that so many people have little consideration for animals, and can have them and live with them, and still see them as disposable.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> Rescues will often not take owner-surrenders.
> 
> No-kill shelters will often not take owner-surrenders (if they are full).
> 
> ...


Oh. Well I guess it just depends on the organization and where you are. Our no-kill shelter takes ONLY owner-surrenders (or semi-owner surrenders, like the puppies that were found abandoned in a foreclosed home that contained my Alex). I could see rescues not taking in owner-surrenders. But at the same time, that's sort of sad. I understand why they don't, but.......I dunno. 

The whole situation of having to have shelters just makes me mad.


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## Baron's Dad (Oct 19, 2011)

Twenty plus years ago there was a campaign in England to bring awareness to frivolous ownership that had a slogan that still rings very true.

"A dog is for life, not just for Christmas!"


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Baron's Dad said:


> Twenty plus years ago there was a campaign in England to bring awareness to frivolous ownership that had a slogan that still rings very true.
> 
> "A dog is for life, not just for Christmas!"


That's a great slogan. All of our shelters/rescues hold off adopting out bunnies near Easter, orange and black kittens/cats near Halloween, but they haven't really been able to 'outlaw' the rescuing/adopting anything around Christmas. I think if they did that, sadly, they'd end up putting down a lot more animals. 

But it's a great slogan, and I think that more people should think about it when thinking of getting a 'cute puppy or kitten' for someone or themselves for Christmas, just because the dog/cat is cute.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alexandria610 said:


> Oh. Well I guess it just depends on the organization and where you are. Our no-kill shelter takes ONLY owner-surrenders (or semi-owner surrenders, like the puppies that were found abandoned in a foreclosed home that contained my Alex). I could see rescues not taking in owner-surrenders. But at the same time, that's sort of sad. I understand why they don't, but.......I dunno.
> 
> The whole situation of having to have shelters just makes me mad.


I think that shelters are a necessity. People die and leave pets, some of them weren't expecting to die, and some of them do not have family willing or able to take care of their critters. 

Dogs that get loose need to be put somewhere until their owner claims them.

And with almost 10% of the people currently unemployed or families are broken up, some of those people have had to make wretched choices. It is better that there are shelters where the dogs can be treated humanely and given a shot at finding someone else to care for them. 

What is sad is that these reasons probably make up only a small percentage of critters in shelters.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm about to confess something, that may get me banned from people's minds or may get me negatively looked down upon for the remainder of my time on this forum, but I just have to say it.

I have turned dogs into the pound before. Kittens, too. I've done it, sadly knowing that some may not come back out, but having hope that their owner (if they had one) would find them before their time was up, or that they would get adopted.

Were any of these my animals? Nope. I can't imagine bringing one of my animals (especially not one I've had for a while) to a place like this.

They were all strays or random dogs/kittens I've found in the street. Every single one of them (the ones I could physically see, ie. males) weren't fixed. In my heart, I believed that maybe (since I'd take them to the vet to see if there was a microchip if they didn't have a tag/collar, and nothing would show up) they had an owner. Heck, if they were kind enough to allow me to approach them and pick them up with my car, maybe they belonged to someone? Maybe someone was looking for them? Or at the very least, if they were spayed/neutered and maybe adopted out, then there would be less of a chance of having unnecessary deaths from puppies/kittens that were bred from them in the future.

It breaks my heart to have to take these animals in. I've done it multiple times. Some people scold me and say 'you should try to re-home it, try to find it's home, or try to get it in with a rescue.' I turn to them with tears in my eyes, knowing I do not have the resources to keep them with me, and considering the animals I have and the possibility of something going wrong. So I take them to the place where I hope, if they have an owner, they will be reunited. I take them to the place where at least they will be fed and not have a possibility of being hit by a car. I take them somewhere that maybe they will be taken care of, and taken home into a loving family.

I'm lucky that my particular shelter has a minimum 72 hour policy. I've seen some of the dogs/cats that are in there for up to two weeks, depending on the availability of kennels/funds to feed and house the animals. The death rate is still high, just as any shelter, but despite so many animals being taken in to the shelter, our county has a decent adoption rate compared to most.

Regardless, I know that some of these animals I take in may not find their way out. But I hope, in my heart, that they will make it out again, and off of the streets and into a loving home.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> I think that shelters are a necessity. People die and leave pets, some of them weren't expecting to die, and some of them do not have family willing or able to take care of their critters.
> 
> Dogs that get loose need to be put somewhere until their owner claims them.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed. It sort of reminds me of DCF and adoption agencies. Really, it does, to a point. Granted these children won't be killed because their parents both died, or the parents weren't financially or physically able to care for them, or something drastic happened within the family and the children were taken away, or the mother doesn't want to abort the baby and so she has it taken away from her soon after birth. However, to me, it's similar. To a point. They are, sadly, necessary evils. Most are great places to be - but when it comes down to it, no amount of toys, attention, or praise will get a child to stop dreaming about either being with their family or finding a family of their own.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Alexandria610 said:


> knowing I do not have the resources to keep them with me, and considering the animals I have and the possibility of something going wrong.


This is what makes you a responsible owner. Knowing your limits and putting the safety of your pets first. Not doing those things is how people become over whelmed and become hoarders. You did _something_ which is more than a lot of people can say.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Alexandria610 said:


> I'm about to confess something, that may get me banned from people's minds or may get me negatively looked down upon for the remainder of my time on this forum, but I just have to say it.
> 
> ..............
> 
> ...


I've done that several times as well. I don't see anything wrong with finding a stray and taking it to the shelter. It's not at all the same thing as taking your own animal to the shelter.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I shared this on my FB....credit to Konotashi.
I hope your video gets many hits and does help....we can only wish.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time and energy to make this video. It breaks my heart. However, one positive thing about the internet is that we can save a lot more lives with spreading the word and making people aware!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Alexandria610 said:


> I'm about to confess something, that may get me banned from people's minds or may get me negatively looked down upon for the remainder of my time on this forum, but I just have to say it.
> 
> I have turned dogs into the pound before. Kittens, too. I've done it, sadly knowing that some may not come back out, but having hope that their owner (if they had one) would find them before their time was up, or that they would get adopted.
> 
> ...


 

I can't see how anyone would blame you or think less of you for turning strays into a shelter. I have also turned in a lot of strays, I would MUCH rather have an animal humanely ( hopefully) euthanized than left to fend for themselves and starve, get hit by a car, attacked by coyotes or just plain be scared and terrorized by a-holes, I have also placed more pets in homes than I can count, it's a joke here at my place of employment how many co-workers have pets that I have given them, all strays either dumped at my stable or roaming the streets, I can no longer just bring them home as I have my own dogs to protect and care for. I just rescued 2 pit puppies 3 weeks ago dumped in an open field to fend for themselves, I took them to the Shelter and while there found a purebred Cairn Terrier in a pen going nuts, her senior owner had passed away 6 weeks prior and her family didn't want the dog and turned her into the shelter, 5 years old and a once spoiled rotten little princess, just dumped in a shelter, so I turned in 2 puppies and left with 1 little dog, adding another member to my pack of now 6 dogs, she is a perfect little dog, no issues, well, other than breed issues , but not behavioral issues and already acts like she runs the place, I can't imagine why this womans family did not want her, she is perfectly housebroken and just hangs out in my house while I work, no accidents or anything, I find the VAST majority of animals tossed aside by owners is because of the owner... NOT the dog. The shelters are primarily irresponsible OWNER dumping grounds, not necessarily breeders. The Cairn's breeder didn't let her down, the womans family did. I know there is no way in **** my deceased Mothers beloved dog would end up in a shelter, if it did, it would be over my dead body.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Shared on FB...I have also taken in stray cats w/kittens or pregnant...raised them until adoptable age and brought all to shelter. That way I can be sure they are fixed before they leave and not add to the overpopulation of our beloved dogs and cats. They also get vet care and food. If they must be put down, it is done humanely.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't see anything wrong with taking dogs to pounds or shelters.
Usually, if they find a home, they are altered. But when people find them and rehome them on their own, they never get altered. That is not rescue!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Great video, really hits you. 

Who knew there were so many Chihuahuas in your area - if they were here in my area they'd be adopted in a flash. When I worked for a shelter anytime we had a small dog it was adopted very fast, sometimes with people fighting over one dog. It would get ridiculous how many people would want this one dog and yet none of the other 30 odd dogs we had that were over 15 pounds.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I tried to draw in a stray the other day. Unfortunately he was a mean little guy. Seriously mean smaller dog, breed unknown. He was in a field behind a car wash. I noticed a homeless woman with a grocery cart in front of the carwash, head back, sleeping. He almost tried to attack me. I quit trying.

I was back there the next day and the homeless lady and dog were both gone. I guess that was her dog. I would've taken him to the shelter.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

He was probably protecting her, and if you had taken him to the shelter, would he have been better off? I'm glad you didn't get him, he may have been all she had to live for.
I feel for both of them.... such a sad situation they must live.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Chihuahuas and pit bulls are the top two breeds (and mixes) turned in at the Maricopa county shelters.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Ugh I hate watching videos like this...makes me want to go to the shelter and adopt them all...instead I hug Sasha. 

I loved the flyleaf song btw. Very good choice.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> He was probably protecting her, and if you had taken him to the shelter, would he have been better off? I'm glad you didn't get him, he may have been all she had to live for.
> I feel for both of them.... such a sad situation they must live.


I don't know about him protecting her... he was back in the field well behind where she was. I tried to give him food and he almost took my arm off, chased me. He was a mean little sucker. 

Would you want your child to accidently run into this dog while you were innocently washing your car at the car wash????


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Alexandria610 said:


> I'm about to confess something, that may get me banned from people's minds or may get me negatively looked down upon for the remainder of my time on this forum, but I just have to say it.
> 
> I have turned dogs into the pound before. Kittens, too. I've done it, sadly knowing that some may not come back out, but having hope that their owner (if they had one) would find them before their time was up, or that they would get adopted.
> 
> ...


I do not think less of you at all. I have reported SEVERAL people for animal abuse and have watched those animals be taken away from their owners and taken to the pound or HS- at least the animals have a decent chance at a normal life and IF they do have to die it is as humane as possible. NOT being starved, not being beaten, not being bred and making MORE animals, not getting loose and getting hit by a car- basically a horrible death.

My dad passed away a little over 2 years ago- he had a JRT named Trinity that hated all other animals and would kill anything. she was AWESOME with people, she was awesome with kids- just extremely animal agressive. I tried like crazy to find a rescue group to take her- no takers. I looked for a home for that dog for 2 1/2 months. In the meantime I had to keep the poor dog locked in a crate for much too long in my opinion= because everyone else in the family had animals and could not take her. I wound up having to take my dad's beloved dog to the SPCA. It was almost as bad as losing my dad, I donated money to SPCA, her crate, her toys, everything I had for her and then some extra bags of dog food. I gave the SPCA my info and told them to go ahead and give my number to whoever adopted her.

I have also brought quite a few strays in, my husband has feral cats at his place of business- there used to be SOOOOO many. I finally convinced him to start trapping them and having them picked up. I know every single one of those cats was put to sleep, BUT at least they were no longer cold, wet, hungry or in danger of getting bitten by snakes or run over by a car, AND I prevented countless other kittens being born. Now when cats show up, we trap them- we keep a few male cats around for the rats, but all females get picked up. I am trying to talk them into neutering the males they allow to stay, and I will get there eventually.

So no- you are not a horrible person!


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I don't go to shelters, unless I am dropping off donations ( I love coupons, so anytime I can even just get a couple small things for free/cheap I donate to the local SPCA and/or pound). The dog in the bandana is soooo adorable ;( Sad seeing lil bullys all the time


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## Geeheim (Jun 18, 2011)

Video made me cry. =(


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

_Originally Posted by PaddyD _
EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
Breeders of ALL breeds are making that choice. Their mission is to populate the world with GOOD EXAMPLES OF THE BREED. But the math is the same. Another dog must die to make room for the good example. Who will win the war? The proper breeders or the great majority of ignorant people allowing their dogs to breed(?) Who is to say one dog is better than the other? I loved my mutts just as much as my PB.


selzer;2292661
There is a flaw in this reasoning said:


> I agree with you that I did not include all sources of puppy generation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> But with the shortage of puppies would drive the cost of puppies up. Current puppy mills would increase their numbers, and more people would go into it.


America is in the situation we're in because of selfishness, pure and simple. 
I want, I want it now, I want it now, just like this - labradoodles, shihpoodles, chorkies and more. People have a fast food mentality. 
And I got another call today, a woman giving up a 1yr. old labradoodle. Why? It gets out of the yard. And kills chickens. They've tried a number of things already but nothing works...and why is that? Because the dog lives outside it's entire life. It's probably bored and lonesome. I told her, get him groomed and neutered, make him a house pet and if that does not work, contact us again and we'll take him. "Right now you just want us to take your problem off your hands". But I bet he was a cuuuute puppy. And they just _had_ to have him, now that his puppyhood's gone, and he's a big gawky chicken killing mess, they want to ditch him.
OH, and the reason he's intact?? They were going to breed him...to...something...
Sigh.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I will restate my opinion (to which I see some agreement above), no matter the source of puppy generation:
Originally Posted by PaddyD 
EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?

"EVERY dog" includes puppy mills, BYBs, Joe Schmoe, 'breeders' ............ every means every.
When all the shelters are cleared out and all dogs have homes this argument will no longer be valid.


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## crewchief_chick (Feb 2, 2011)

I have to admit I've only ever taken one dog to the shelter. I tried for 4 months to rehome her, to retrain the bad behaviors, everything I could think of. Nothing worked. I finally found a rescue that wasnt full and could take her. I hated doing it, she had a wonderful personality, and was a sweetheart. But nothing i did worked. I could never get her to housebreak, and she was 6 months old when I got her. I'd take her outside, she'd happily do all her business, then come back inside, she'd run around the house happily, then not think twice about squatting right smack dab in the middle of the living room floor and leaving a pile. If she eliminated in her kennel, she didnt care about happily sitting right in the middle of it and look at you like "look at me, i'm such a great dog!" It about broke my heart to relinquish her, but I finally had to. Last I heard, a farmer with about 100 acres had adopted her, and she was doing well learning how to be a bird dog.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> America is in the situation we're in because of selfishness, pure and simple.
> I want, I want it now, I want it now, just like this - labradoodles, shihpoodles, chorkies and more. People have a fast food mentality.
> And I got another call today, a woman giving up a 1yr. old labradoodle. Why? It gets out of the yard. And kills chickens. They've tried a number of things already but nothing works...and why is that? Because the dog lives outside it's entire life. It's probably bored and lonesome. I told her, get him groomed and neutered, make him a house pet and if that does not work, contact us again and we'll take him. "Right now you just want us to take your problem off your hands". But I bet he was a cuuuute puppy. And they just _had_ to have him, now that his puppyhood's gone, and he's a big gawky chicken killing mess, they want to ditch him.
> OH, and the reason he's intact?? They were going to breed him...to...something...
> Sigh.


Exactly, and it is not just America. It is in every country where dogs are being produced and put down by the tens of thousands (or any number). It is a war of selfishness. Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is more important than anyone else. Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is smarter and has a more righteous reason than anyone else. The excuses, arguments and 'reasons' are endless and all they do is produce more dogs to either be put down or to take a home away from a shelter dog. This is a problem for which there will be no solution that is satisfactory to everyone. As long as everyone has a right to breed a mutt, a pure-bred, a hybrid, whatever.... there will be no solution.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

*"I Want to Breed my Dog"*



Alexandria610 said:


> I agree with you on that one, as it is true that the majority do have problems due to the owners. However, there are also genetic problems that arise that people aren't capable of handling (or even health issues that aren't forseen, even with good medical care on the owners' part) and these people panic and don't know of rescues and the like where they can take their animals to be surrendered instead of shelters that will kill them.
> 
> Am I saying that we shouldn't be upset that people drop these dogs and cats off here, and that the people aren't at fault or that the people are good and holy? Lord no. But I'm not saying that EVERY single person has a dog or cat with an issue that was brought on by the human.
> 
> ...


Not bashing. Just disagree with many of your assumptions. If I was a new adopter who knew nothing about shelter dogs, your comments would scare me off from wanting to adopt one.

Most health issues are unforeseen. I adopted a non-GSD from a reputable breeder. The dog had HD, a digestive disorder, a heart murmur, and an abnormally small uterus. She was dead by the age of 3. On the other hand - my shelter dog has been extremely healthy her entire almost 14 years of life. She has never exhibited any of the common GSD health issues. No matter where your dog comes from, you best be prepared for any potential health 
problems. 

As for the dog you adopted - you knew she had more severe issues. She was already exhibiting those. You chose to adopt her anyway. It was your choice and you understood that going in. People not up to that challenge could easily select a different dog.

Perhaps you do not consider housebreaking, destructiveness, and lack of socialization to be huge issues. Many people, however, would. My point was that "MY" shelter dog was completely housebroken, non-destructive and well socialized. 

Am I saying that none of the shelter dogs have issues, or baggage? No. But I am saying that many shelter dogs do NOT have issues or baggage. You want to give people the benefit of the doubt. While some owners deserve sympathy and there are situations where people have no other choice, I think they are in the minority I have little sympathy for most of the owners who dump their pets in shelters. JMO

You make it sound as if the only true way to get a dog with no issues, or baggage is to adopt that "clean slate" puppy from a reputable breeder. I dare say that there are many owners who have done a great job of messing up those clean slate puppies. I have nothing against people adopting from a reputable breeder. For many - that is the way to go. I just think it is also possible to get a very nice dog from a shelter. And again - your comments would discourage me from wanting to do that.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> I will restate my opinion (to which I see some agreement above), no matter the source of puppy generation:
> Originally Posted by PaddyD
> EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
> 
> ...


Not necessarily true. I know quite a few people who simply will not get a dog if they cannot get one from a breeder. So if no breeders were producing puppies, they would not turn to adopt one from the shelter, either. 

I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating a point that more than a few friends have brought up to me when discussing similar topics.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Not bashing. *Just disagree with many of your assumptions*. If I was a new adopter who knew nothing about shelter dogs, your comments would scare me off from wanting to adopt one.


And that's fine - we obviously all have our differing opinions. I didn't say that you were bashing me - I was referring to the fact that many people can only see the bad owners who dump their animals and not the few that don't deserve to be lumped in with these. A lot of people say things, all-inclusively, and don't realize that by saying that (or thinking that) they automatically lump the maybe 2% into that "all" or "every" catagory of being a horrible person and/or dog owner.



> Most health issues are unforeseen. I adopted a non-GSD from a reputable breeder. The dog had HD, a digestive disorder, a heart murmur, and an abnormally small uterus. She was dead by the age of 3. On the other hand - my shelter dog has been extremely healthy her entire almost 14 years of life. She has never exhibited any of the common GSD health issues. No matter where your dog comes from, you best be prepared for any potential health
> problems.


Exactly. And it should also be noted that not every dog adopted from a shelter will be an extremely healthy dog, either. It's a misconception that a lot of people make (obviously not yourself or most of the people that are responsible pet owners), and I've seen plenty of dogs return to the pound or shelter due to owners not expecting these 'issues', regardless if they are health or temperment. True, regardless of where you get an animal, you should be prepared for any potential health problems - but let's face it, that's obviously for the people that are responsible (or that become responsible) pet owners. 

When you get a GSD, you expect it to have some degree of medium-high energy, do you not? A lot of people that aren't as educated will buy one thinking it can protect them, thinking it's the dog they grew up with so it won't be hard to care for it, or maybe even thinking they're 'pretty' dogs. Most people that are irresponsible won't take the time to do research beforehand. And this goes back to people going into a shelter and adopting a dog for the same reason, not taking into consideration that the dog MIGHT have problems. I emphasize MIGHT as I have in all of my previous posts. It is not a word that is meant to be all-inclusive. Meaning, not EVERY dog will have problems. 



> As for the dog you adopted - you knew she had more severe issues. She was already exhibiting those. You chose to adopt her anyway. It was your choice and you understood that going in. People not up to that challenge could easily select a different dog.


I hope they do - because again, I have seen many people adopt them because they were cute or the person wanted them, without even noticing some of these issues, and then the dog gets taken back (or even worse, to a kill-shelter because they didn't want to pay the fee to relinquish their pet) because the dog had 'problems' that the owner didn't forsee. 



> Perhaps you do not consider housebreaking, destructiveness, and lack of socialization to be huge issues. Many people, however, would. My point was that "MY" shelter dog was completely housebroken, non-destructive and well socialized.


Then they shouldn't consider adopting a dog that they might have issues with in the future - which could, in effect, be applied to just about any dog you purchase or adopt, regardless of where you get it from.



> Am I saying that none of the shelter dogs have issues, or baggage? No. But I am saying that many shelter dogs do NOT have issues or baggage. You want to give people the benefit of the doubt. While some owners deserve sympathy and there are situations where people have no other choice, I think they are in the minority I have little sympathy for most of the owners who dump their pets in shelters. JMO


And again, I can agree with you on the first few sentences. Most don't have issues. But that's not to say that only maybe 2% will have problems. It also depends on where you are located, IMO. In Central Florida, I would honestly say that about 40% of the dogs relinquished have some sort of 'problem.' It's a sad statistic, but that's what I have observed. And then again, this also depends on if you are talking about the animal shelter, where they will euthanize animals, or the humane society. Where I volunteer, maybe 5% have 'problems' - that's great! But just across the parking lot? THAT'S where you get the 40%. And THAT'S where people want to adopt from because, let's face it, it's cheaper. I'd much rather then adopt dogs that are going to be euthanized because the shelter ran out of space - of course I would! But again, I just want people to realize what they might be getting into with this dog. We don't often get 'clean slate' puppies. Sure, dogs can be rehabbed into a 'clean slate' to work from - but that will take more work than the average pet owner will likely want to do.



> You make it sound as if the only true way to get a dog with no issues, or baggage is to adopt that "clean slate" puppy from a reputable breeder. I dare say that there are many owners who have done a great job of messing up those clean slate puppies. I have nothing against people adopting from a reputable breeder. For many - that is the way to go. I just think it is also possible to get a very nice dog from a shelter. And again - your comments would discourage me from wanting to do that.


 
I'm sorry you read into it that way. I dare not say that every puppy that comes from a reputable breeder is an amazing puppy, or a puppy that will come perfect for you to train and own. No. And of course there are owners that have ruined those clean slate puppies - there will always be. 

I obviously have gotten many nice dogs, my own included, from shelters. If I'd thought any less of these dogs, do you think we would have adopted and KEPT adopting so many? No. I think it's too bad that my comments would discourage you from wanting to adopt a shelter dog/puppy. That's a shame. I don't let many peoples' opinions concerning things sway me TOO much. I do my research - I talk to professionals that deal directly with the dogs at the rescue/shelter. I make sure I know what I might be getting into. 

I would hope that my comments would only further educate people who are considering adopting from a shelter to make sure they are ready for anything that dog ownership could entail, good or bad, and that they do some research prior to getting a dog - REGARDLESS of where they get it from.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have had four excellent shelter dogs. Three of them good competitors in obedience. Took a passle of shelters dogs to the university last night for students to pet. So many with good nerves, traInable and suitable for companionship!! Lots and lots of good dogs in rescue situations. 

A titled and imported GSD went to one of the sheriff deputies! First family fell on hard times and the one they placed him with did not turn out. There are not only lots of good dogs to rescue, there are often gems!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PaddyD said:


> I will restate my opinion (to which I see some agreement above), no matter the source of puppy generation:
> Originally Posted by PaddyD
> EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?
> 
> ...


I will never agree with this ideology, it comes from PETA and their foul commercial where they terrorize a child with a body bag of a supposed shelter dog that they killed because they bought a puppy from a breeder. 

The only person responsible for a dog being killed in a shelter is the owner of the dog. 

I am in too foul a mood to argue this point properly today.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by PaddyD 
I will restate my opinion (to which I see some agreement above), no matter the source of puppy generation:
Originally Posted by PaddyD 
EVERY dog that is bred is producing puppies that are taking homes away from dogs that are potentially put down. If the puppy just created was not born then there would be a home available to one in need. Choosing to create a puppy is choosing to take a home away from one that exists. Saying that "The puppy I am creating is more important than one that is about to be put down." is an example of a choice being made. How many ways can it be said until it is understood?

"EVERY dog" includes puppy mills, BYBs, Joe Schmoe, 'breeders' ............ every means every.
When all the shelters are cleared out and all dogs have homes this argument will no longer be valid.


Rei said:


> Not necessarily true. I know quite a few people who simply will not get a dog if they cannot get one from a breeder. So if no breeders were producing puppies, they would not turn to adopt one from the shelter, either.
> 
> I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating a point that more than a few friends have brought up to me when discussing similar topics.


Nothing wrong with arguing. Arguments aren't necessarily bad.
If *everyone *decided that they would ONLY get their dog from a 'reputable' breeder then all other dogs would have to be put to sleep because there would be no homes for them.
However, in the real world, puppies are being produced by everyone who feels they have the right to do so. I am against legislating morality and trampling on people's rights but it is tempting to think of a world where people are not allowed to breed without a license to do so and that license would be granted based on the population of shelters.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom, I need to apologize. I never meant to start anything with our differing opinions, nor did I mean to offend you or make you think that I don't appreciate your view. I should have backed off and just listened to your opinion without trying to shove my thoughts down your throat. Again, I apologize.

I guess I just want people to realize, now that I feel like a donkey and feel I look like a shelter-dog-hater, that I don't think anything less of dogs that come from shelters. I don't think any less of dogs that come from breeders, either. I'm not trying to say that dogs from shelters can't be just as good, if not greater, than those that are from reputable breeders. If you were to put Alex (even when she was a wonky looking pup of unsure dog breeds, that looked more like a drowned rat than a dog) up against a PB GSD pup from a reputable breeder with great lines and wonderful disposition, I would still pick Alex. It hurts me to think that others might think I'm looking down on shelter dogs or that each and every dog adopted from a shelter will have issues, undoubtedly.

I guess I just wish people would be more responsible, in general, and do research before even GETTING a dog - then we wouldn't have any problem with shelters being overcrowded.

I should have just stated that to begin with, rather than trying to run everyone in circles in explaining my jumbled up thoughts. Sometimes my emotions get in the way, especially when it's regarding something I'm so passionate about, and it's hard for me to just listen to differing opinions instead of spurting out everything I think and feel. It's very inconsiderate of me, and I need to realize that many others (especially on this forum) are just as passionate as me about the same things.

Again, I just wanted to say that I am sorry.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Heres a thought:

I think AKC should take a more active role in policing breeders. Only allow 'x' number of litters from a bitch a year. Only allow 'x' number of litters sired by a stud. If a breeder is convicted of any crime against animals they (including any and all animals registered in their name) are suspended for a period of time and/ or they can lose their right to membership (including any and all animals registered in their name) - no registering pups, no titles, etc. This decision is open for public view on the AKC website - listed by kennel name and breeder name. 

If I wanted to find out about a specific breeder I should be able to go to AKC and see how many litters / dogs they have (had) registered in their name. 

AKC (or any other dog registry) should have a data link where they can see that Joe Smith has 20 breeding dogs all having multiple litters and that information should be open to the public. Or at least members of that registry.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

If we were to follow the logic of this tread no one would breed dogs on purpose. In about 10 years or so there would be no pure bred dogs of any kind. Just mongrels bred on the streets. If you want a dog you would have to go out and catch one. Hmm, that really sounds like a great idea.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If someone is breeding for a purpose, with a good understanding of a breed, knowledge that can be used to make good pairing decisions....then I would not let the fact that there are scads of loose dogs in the county breeding indiscriminately influence the decision. if there are people wanting the pups because of the good likely to come from the breeding, then I see no reason to not maintain a breed. The animal activists would have all pure breeds eliminated!

Putting two dogs together to produce pets, well, the locals are doing that just fine as I note driving down the roads.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> Exactly, and it is not just America. It is in every country where dogs are being produced and put down by the tens of thousands (or any number). It is a war of selfishness. Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is more important than anyone else. Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is smarter and has a more righteous reason than anyone else. The excuses, arguments and 'reasons' are endless and all they do is produce more dogs to either be put down or to take a home away from a shelter dog. This is a problem for which there will be no solution that is satisfactory to everyone. As long as everyone has a right to breed a mutt, a pure-bred, a hybrid, whatever.... there will be no solution.


No offense, but while your heart is in the right place, your logic is not. The fact of the matter is there are those of us that have certain breeds ( like this forum) that love to compete and show them, are we supposed to bypass that love so we can adopt the mistakes of a stupid population of irresponsible moron's dogs? I am supposed to bypass buying a great German Shepherd from a reputable breeder who health screens and temperament tests so I can have an unknown backyard breeders mess? I reiterate AGAIN , THE PROBLEM IS NOT REPUTABLE BREEDERS ,it is the disgusting low life people with the throw away mentality, by eliminating breeders all that will be left is crappy dogs of unknown temperament, but hey, they are here so that is tough, we are obligated to have to adopt them? I have a rescue dog from a shelter, and I purchased my other dogs, I contribute HEAVILY to pet shelters, but the fact of the matter is I prefer to support reputable breeders instead of filthy low life puppy millers who will be the ones benefitting most from breeders closing their doors, that is the fact, plain and simple.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lilie said:


> Heres a thought:
> 
> I think AKC should take a more active role in policing breeders.


IMO, this is and should be the responsibility of the breed club, not the registry.

I get my dogs from wherever and whomever makes sense at the time. I've never gotten an animal from a breeder or rescue I wouldn't go straight back to and get another animal from. Most of the time people getting in my face about "killing" shelter puppies are people who have bought animals from pet stores and puppy mills and now must have some deep rooted guilt issues. If I can't find the dog or cat I want, I just don't get one. There is no sliding scale of what I'm willing to take on. If all the good breeders disappeared tomorrow I'd probably never get another German Shepherd dog again.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Samba said:


> I have had four excellent shelter dogs. Three of them good competitors in obedience. Took a passle of shelters dogs to the university last night for students to pet. So many with good nerves, traInable and suitable for companionship!! Lots and lots of good dogs in rescue situations.
> 
> A titled and imported GSD went to one of the sheriff deputies! First family fell on hard times and the one they placed him with did not turn out. There are not only lots of good dogs to rescue, there are often gems!


Exactly my point. There are some awesome shelter dogs. Where do rescue dogs come from? - Shelters. I would probably advise a newbie to go the rescue route. I had no problem evaluating my own shelter dog, but some might. A good rescue will do a great job of matching dog to adopter.

My problem with statements about shelter dogs having issues and baggage, is that it WILL scare people away from adopting them. How often do people post on the forum about wanting to adopt a puppy, because the older GSD may not bond, or might have issues, or might have baggage? Rescue people can talk to them until they are blue in the face, but too often, people have preconceived notions about rescue and shelter dogs. Those comments just reinforced those beliefs. That saddens me.

My shelter dog is awesome too. And she mostly came that way. Wouldn't trade her for the world.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

LARHAGE said:


> No offense, but while your heart is in the right place, your logic is not. The fact of the matter is there are those of us that have certain breeds ( like this forum) that love to compete and show them, are we supposed to bypass that love so we can adopt the mistakes of a stupid population of irresponsible moron's dogs? I am supposed to bypass buying a great German Shepherd from a reputable breeder who health screens and temperament tests so I can have an unknown backyard breeders mess? I reiterate AGAIN , THE PROBLEM IS NOT REPUTABLE BREEDERS ,it is the disgusting low life people with the throw away mentality, by eliminating breeders all that will be left is crappy dogs of unknown temperament, but hey, they are here so that is tough, we are obligated to have to adopt them? I have a rescue dog from a shelter, and I purchased my other dogs, I contribute HEAVILY to pet shelters, but the fact of the matter is I prefer to support reputable breeders instead of filthy low life puppy millers who will be the ones benefitting most from breeders closing their doors, that is the fact, plain and simple.


Well put.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Exactly my point. There are some awesome shelter dogs. Where do rescue dogs come from? - Shelters. I would probably advise a newbie to go the rescue route. I had no problem evaluating my own shelter dog, but some might. A good rescue will do a great job of matching dog to adopter.
> 
> My problem with statements about shelter dogs having issues and baggage, is that it WILL scare people away from adopting them. How often do people post on the forum about wanting to adopt a puppy, because the older GSD may not bond, or might have issues, or might have baggage? Rescue people can talk to them until they are blue in the face, but too often, people have preconceived notions about rescue and shelter dogs.* Those comments just reinforced those beliefs. That saddens me*.
> 
> My shelter dog is awesome too. And she mostly came that way. Wouldn't trade her for the world.


 
Did you miss this? Or do you just honestly think that harshly of me based on one comment? That saddens me to think that by me saying one thing, one belief in my immature, naive head, would ruin my reputation or the way others view me. I hope that is not the case. Because otherwise, I do not know what I am doing here or why I should stay in a place where people think harshly of me and my pet ownership.



> Stevenzachsmom, I need to apologize. I never meant to start anything with our differing opinions, nor did I mean to offend you or make you think that I don't appreciate your view. I should have backed off and just listened to your opinion without trying to shove my thoughts down your throat. Again, I apologize.
> 
> I guess I just want people to realize, now that I feel like a donkey and feel I look like a shelter-dog-hater, that I don't think anything less of dogs that come from shelters. I don't think any less of dogs that come from breeders, either. I'm not trying to say that dogs from shelters can't be just as good, if not greater, than those that are from reputable breeders. If you were to put Alex (even when she was a wonky looking pup of unsure dog breeds, that looked more like a drowned rat than a dog) up against a PB GSD pup from a reputable breeder with great lines and wonderful disposition, I would still pick Alex. It hurts me to think that others might think I'm looking down on shelter dogs or that each and every dog adopted from a shelter will have issues, undoubtedly.
> 
> ...


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Lauren, I'm sorry. I did miss it. You do not owe me an apology. Not at all. I'm not even sure we are on such different pages - perhaps just explaining ourselves in ways that aren't clear to the other.

I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. That certainly was not my intention. I should have backed off too.

Hugs,
Jan


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Lauren, I'm sorry. I did miss it. You do not owe me an apology. Not at all. I'm not even sure we are on such different pages - perhaps just explaining ourselves in ways that aren't clear to the other.
> 
> I am very sorry if I hurt your feelings. That certainly was not my intention. I should have backed off too.
> 
> ...


Well thank you, but I do feel that I needed to apologize! 

I realize you didn't mean to hurt my feelings, and at the same time, I also realize I shouldn't have taken it so personal. I know you, of all people, would not try to make me feel bad or try to hurt my feelings - I let my own insecurities get in the way of that.

I think you are right, though, that we aren't explaining ourselves clearly to each other. And I'll admit it's hard to really know the tone on written things, especially online forums and/or instant messages. I've had that bite me in the rear on more than one occassion. And I don't know about you, but it sure is hard for me to try and explain what I mean on paper (or in this case, online). 

I'm sorry that it got to be such a heated issue on my part! I think that most of the time I just need to agree to disagree with people, rather than attacking their opinions!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by PaddyD 
Exactly, and it is not just America. It is in every country where dogs are being produced and put down by the tens of thousands (or any number). It is a war of selfishness. Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is more important than anyone else. *Everyone who breeds thinks he/she is smarter and has a more righteous reason than anyone else. *The excuses, arguments and 'reasons' are endless and all they do is produce more dogs to either be put down or to take a home away from a shelter dog. This is a problem for which there will be no solution that is satisfactory to everyone. As long as everyone has a right to breed a mutt, a pure-bred, a hybrid, whatever.... there will be no solution.


LARHAGE said:


> No offense, but while your heart is in the right place, your logic is not. The fact of the matter is there are those of us that have certain breeds ( like this forum) that love to compete and show them, are we supposed to bypass that love so we can adopt the mistakes of a stupid population of irresponsible moron's dogs?.


Nah, my heart isn't involved, just my unpopular logic.
I am just throwing this out to see what I can catch. To see where people are on this topic.
I have no agenda beyond that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But breeders aren't the ones dropping off dogs, at least not when I was at the Humane Society. They had a few litters of puppies that came from stray pregnant dogs who ended up at the county shelter. The dogs brought in were dumped by people, owners, families who could no longer afford them, didn't want to deal with health or behavior problems, had to move, developed allergies...you name it. Then there were the slew of strays. I never once had a breeder drop off dogs because they decided to spend all that time and money owning and titling nice dogs, breed them, and just start dropping them off at the shelter...

By the logic that breeders are ultimately responsible....what does this say about us as human beings and how we take care of our own race? How many have gone out of our way to foster or adopt unwanted children?....


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

It is not just the extremes of puppy mills and “low-life” owners that contribute to the problem of overcrowded shelters– there are many, many shades of gray in between that, taken together, contribute to the problem of overcrowded shelters, for example:

Reputable Breeders – Assuming we could even agree on a definition, there is no way you can tell me that dogs, or the offspring of dogs, from reputable breeders NEVER wind up in shelters. I highly doubt that even the most reputable breeders know with 100% certainty where each one of their dogs is. Human nature is what it is… dogs pass through many hands and find themselves at the shelter not because the breeder won’t take their dogs back but because people don’t want to suffer the embarrassment, inconvenience or cost of returning a dog to a breeder. Additionally, as these pups go out in the world with no guarantee that they will be spayed or neutered, it is probable that some of these dogs will have accidental (or deliberate) breedings. Again, I know that reputable breeders have contracts designed to prevent this but, without vigilant follow-up, it is impossible to know for certain. And, I’ve had enough experience in life to know that what people say they’ll do and what they actually do is often very different. 

Owners – I agree that it is likely that the majority of owners who surrender their dogs to shelters (or fail to claim them when they have been brought in as strays) have a disposable attitude about pets. But, there are cases where people bring their pets into shelters or rescues because they have no other choice – or feel it is the best of the options they have available. It happens. 

The shelter system itself - Why do we allow our municipal shelters to have the policies they have? Why don’t we demand better policies and outcomes for the animals taken there? They are, afterall, tax-funded entities. I feel that the number of animals PTS in shelters could be reduced if we started to think differently about how shelters are organized and funded. For example, what if instead of each city/shelter being operated in isolation, they were part of a larger community/state/national system with regional networks that connect dogs in high-kill/low-adoption facilities to shelters and rescues in other parts of the county/state/country that have room and more adoption traffic… essentially, a technology-enabled inventory system that let individual shelters know where in the system there is capacity coupled with the infrastructure to move animals when necessary. One observation I have had is that all too often shelters must rely on the superhuman efforts of a small number of volunteers to accomplish a similar objective. I am sure there are a number of other areas where efficiencies could be made to improve outcomes.

To sum up, I think to really improve the situation we need to stop thinking about this as a problem of bad individuals and start seeing it as one that needs to be addressed on a community, county, state and national level. Through this, we may one day be able to…

… Transform shelters from being places people find depressing to vital centers offering education, low-cost veterinary care and adoption-support services.

… Better regulate breeding practices nationally to prevent the abuses of puppy mill operations and to better manage the number and quality of dogs that are bred by any kind of breeder. Are there policies that could be established to eliminate the financial incentives of operating a puppy mill…. for example, adding taxes and licensing fees to the supplier and seller (retailer)? 

… Better incentivize people to spay/neuter their pets. Again, this will not solve the problem… but, hopefully, it would reduce the number of irresponsible people who own intact dogs. 

...… Enact and enforce tougher laws to punish those that abuse or neglect animals.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

Very sad video- I couldn't watch it all! I get sad enough when I see the dog who lives in a crate in a garage down the street. My boyfriend and I went to the local shelter a few months ago. We are looking for a second cat (have now contacted a Bengal rescue group- the cat we have now is a Bengal and we don't mind all the meowing, the craziness, the love of water) so we were just getting an application and looking around. Still, I wanted to walk through the dog section before leaving- big mistake, very sad there!

I wish that:
1. Most of all that people were more educated about animals and animal care.

2. That there were more regulations about animal cruelty AND more money to enforce them. Maybe even *just* money to support the laws we currently have.

In the end a lot of it comes down to money... the government, many charities don't have money to do everything they would like to do... which is why we should all help out in whatever way we can...


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## Cetan (Oct 8, 2011)

@*Alexandria610 - *I'm still a no-name on the forum, but I don't think any less of you for turning in strays to the shelters. To me, it's very much the lesser of two animals. At the worst, it will be humanely euthanized. At the best, it will get food, a bed, and maybe it's owner or adopted. On the streets it's subject to many elements that could end up in death. Starvation, hit by a car, shot at, attacked by another animal, disease and sickness... so on and so forth.

------------------------------------------------------

I completely disagree with the "logic" of _"Buying a puppy from a breeder kills a dog in the shelter."_ I am not killing a dog in the shelter, because I made the decision to buy a puppy from a 'reputable breeder'. What it should read, is _"Any irresponsible owner who buys a dog, kills a dog in a shelter." _Because that is what it is. That is the root problem. I am not responsible for people's screw-ups. They messed up, and if the dog gets euthanized, the blood is on THEIR hands. Not mine.

The people who buy a puppy thinking it will be a puppy forever, or buys a dog that they think will be a perfect automaton preloaded with obedience. The people who don't work through their dog's problems. Those are the people killing shelter dogs, when they drop theirs off the moment there is an issue with what they unrealistically thought was a perfect being.

And in a close second, is _"Any owner who breeds their dog irresponsibly is killing a litter of dogs in a shelter." _Because they create the puppies who eventually end up adopted by the irresponsible owner. Not every dog in that litter ends up with an irresponsible owner. But if the breeder is just doing it for money, or for the 'miracle of childbirth', or whatever selfish reason, they're still contributing to the problem.

An irresponsible owner buys a dog, and for whatever reason doesn't want to deal with it, and gets rid of it in a fashion no different from getting rid of a broken object in their house.


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## EllieMae<3 (Oct 3, 2011)

I received my pure bred German Shepherd from a shelter a half hour away from where I live. It's true! You don't need to go to a breeder to get a pure bred. When I first saw my GSD I could not believe someone could let go of such a beautiful dog! It's sad to see people rush to a breeder first to get a dog, rather than checking out a shelter first. Those are the dogs that need homes the most. Thanks for posting!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lots of pure bred dogs in my local high kill shelter as well. I got my PB lab from there when he was still a puppy. I believe that some of the best dogs come from shelters. I know that my shelter dog rocks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

EllieMae<3 said:


> I received my pure bred German Shepherd from a shelter a half hour away from where I live. It's true! You don't need to go to a breeder to get a pure bred. When I first saw my GSD I could not believe someone could let go of such a beautiful dog! It's sad to see people rush to a breeder first to get a dog, rather than checking out a shelter first. Those are the dogs that need homes the most. Thanks for posting!


It's not just a matter of purbred vs. mix though. I love my mix dog, he is my heart dog, absolutely irreplaceable. When I'm ready to get another GSD, I'm not just looking for any ol' purebred GSD. I'm looking for certain temperament, conformation attributes, looking to include or avoid certain dogs in the pedigree. To make it about getting purebred dogs and how readily available the are in shelters (or not) is way over-simplifying the process for a lot of people. I might be better off getting a GSD/Malinois mix than the purebred dog at the shelter, depending on what I am looking for in the dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I hate to break it to the "rescue only" crowd but some of us have very specific expectations out of our dogs. Going to a breeder who can produce what we are looking for is the only way to get what we need. I have rescued several dogs and cats off the street and re-homed them with my own effort and expense. Matter of fact, the cat that we now have living with us was picked up out of the middle of the road when it was just a kitten. I have no problem with people who feel the need to rescue animals. However, I also have no problem and do not feel the least bit guilty for going to a great breeder and paying very good money for a quality dog that has the bloodlines, temperament and working ability that I desire. Please spare me the guilt trip.


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## EllieMae<3 (Oct 3, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It's not just a matter of purbred vs. mix though. I love my mix dog, he is my heart dog, absolutely irreplaceable. When I'm ready to get another GSD, I'm not just looking for any ol' purebred GSD. I'm looking for certain temperament, conformation attributes, looking to include or avoid certain dogs in the pedigree. To make it about getting purebred dogs and how readily available the are in shelters (or not) is way over-simplifying the process for a lot of people. I might be better off getting a GSD/Malinois mix than the purebred dog at the shelter, depending on what I am looking for in the dog.


You're exactly right. I was lucky enough to have such an amazing dog. She has no aggression or dominant issues. She's very sweet. My trainer even said she's surprised to see such a well behaved German Shepherd since I got her from the shelter (You never know what kind of home these dogs were in before)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

robk said:


> I hate to break it to the "rescue only" crowd but some of us have very specific expectations out of our dogs. Going to a breeder who can produce what we are looking for is the only way to get what we need. I have rescued several dogs and cats off the street and re-homed them with my own effort and expense. Matter of fact, the cat that we now have living with us was picked up out of the middle of the road when it was just a kitten. I have no problem with people who feel the need to rescue animals. However, I also have no problem and do not feel the least bit guilty for going to a great breeder and paying very good money for a quality dog that has the bloodlines, temperament and working ability that I desire. Please spare me the guilt trip.



Exactly. One of my dogs is from a rescue (who pulled the mother, pregnant, from the county shelter). ALL of my cats are/were from rescues and shelters. I've helped by exercising and training GSDs at the shelter, doing home visits and pulling dogs from local shelters for the GSD rescue. I've never purchased my cats/dogs from a pet store or puppy mill and I do not shop at pet stores that sell animals. When friends and family ask for help finding a dog, unless they have a reason not to or something specific in mind, we *always* start with the local rescues and shelters.

I found out recently that I can't foster or adopt dogs from the shelter where I used to volunteer because I have intact animals in my home (I'm not a breeder and have never bred a single litter of any species). Apparently they decided that intact animals for any reason must be the root of all evil. Luckily the small rescue where I got one of my dogs and one of my cats does not have this blanket rule but they are pretty small, sometimes there are years between them having dogs that would fit our household.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Apparently they decided that intact animals for any reason must be the root of all evil. Luckily the small rescue where I got one of my dogs and one of my cats does not have this blanket rule but they are pretty small, sometimes there are years between them having dogs that would fit our household.


Or, that the risk of having an oops litter isn't worth taking the chance. Not every rescue that turns down fosters because of intact animals does so because they think having intact animals is bad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> It's not just a matter of purbred vs. mix though. I love my mix dog, he is my heart dog, absolutely irreplaceable. When I'm ready to get another GSD, I'm not just looking for any ol' purebred GSD. I'm looking for certain temperament, conformation attributes, looking to include or avoid certain dogs in the pedigree. To make it about getting purebred dogs and how readily available the are in shelters (or not) is way over-simplifying the process for a lot of people. I might be better off getting a GSD/Malinois mix than the purebred dog at the shelter, depending on what I am looking for in the dog.


This. Yes, you can find a PB dog in a shelter. And for many people, that dog will be everything they want or need out of the dog. But other people breed and buy dogs with a specific purpose in mind. They want certain traits, and they can get the best chance at getting those traits by studying the dogs behind their dog. 

I also agree that anyone who dumps their dog in a shelter is killing a dog. Their dog is taking up a spot in the shelter, there are only so many spots. If their dog doesn't die, some other dog will. If their dog gets a home, some other dog won't. 

This is not to say that we should not drop off a stray dog. We should. That is one of the first places people go when they are looking for their missing dog. And dogs should not be trying to survive out of garbage cans, getting hit by cars, and all the other dangers of stray dogs. 

I do not know that the answer should lay in government, unless it was done in such a way as it benefits people. That will not be popular. But kind of like the sherriff in Texas who took over the animal shelter and it is totally run by inmates. Those inmates get a job, and other benefits from interacting with the dogs. The dog serve a purpose. Done properly, it is likely that the system could support itself, or at least the expenses of running the system. I would support that. Also using the animal shelter as a way for people to complete community service sentences, or to provide people with a job in order to receive some type of aide. Everything funded by the government is paid for by the people, and the people in many places are not in the best of shape. Their services for animals are not going to be as well funded as other places.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdraven said:


> Or, that the risk of having an oops litter isn't worth taking the chance. Not every rescue that turns down fosters because of intact animals does so because they think having intact animals is bad.



An oops litter with what? Two intact males mating? LOL The language on the shelter's new site (got a new name, kind of re-vamped everything) is not something I agree with so, I'll just have to look for a new place to adopt and volunteer. If having intact animals isn't bad then what's the problem? My cousin works there and said they could make an exception for showing and breeding homes, but that's not why my boys are intact. I do show on occasion, but I never breed. They are intact because I don't believe in surgically altering them just because.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Liesje said:


> They are intact because I don't believe in surgically altering them just because.


That's a whole other subject that I don't want to get into, and I don't look down on you or anybody else that has intact animals - but there have been studies done that show that females and males that are left intact (my stepfather's dog included - he now has testicular cancer) have a much higher risk of prostate cancer, testicular cancer, uterine cancers or diseases, and mammarian cancer. It's of course not to say that ALL of them will get it, undoubtedly. The percentage is rather low if you compare the dogs to other intact dogs. But comparing to spayed/neutered animals, the risk is higher.

Just had to throw that out there for anyone that wasn't aware of these things. But since you're all dog lovers, I assume you probably know! Again, I don't believe you should alter your animals just because I pointed out some study findings, because each and every person should have the right to decide to either do or not do that to their animal - and I don't think of anyone any less for leaving animals intact (otherwise, my stepfather and I would have a strained relationship, but we most definitely do not).


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I found out recently that I can't foster or adopt dogs from the shelter where I used to volunteer because I have intact animals in my home (I'm not a breeder and have never bred a single litter of any species). Apparently they decided that intact animals for any reason must be the root of all evil. Luckily the small rescue where I got one of my dogs and one of my cats does not have this blanket rule but they are pretty small, sometimes there are years between them having dogs that would fit our household.


 These blanket policies that only serve to enforce someone's agenda are pretty widespread in the sheltering community 

Good Homes Need Not Apply:
Good Homes Need Not Apply : Nathan J Winograd




gsdraven said:


> Or, that the risk of having an oops litter isn't worth taking the chance. Not every rescue that turns down fosters because of intact animals does so because they think having intact animals is bad.


 Actually that is the main reason that rescues turn down fosters and homes who have intact animals. Most rescues don't send out intact animals or if they do, they're altered before they're anywhere near old enough to be bred. Most do it because in the eyes of the majority of the shelter community, having an intact dog just screams bad dog owner. 



Alexandria610 said:


> That's a whole other subject that I don't want to get into, and I don't look down on you or anybody else that has intact animals - but there have been studies done that show that females and males that are left intact (my stepfather's dog included - he now has testicular cancer) have a much higher risk of prostate cancer, testicular cancer, uterine cancers or diseases, and mammarian cancer. It's of course not to say that ALL of them will get it, undoubtedly. The percentage is rather low if you compare the dogs to other intact dogs. But comparing to spayed/neutered animals, the risk is higher.


 Actually males risk of prostate cancer increases with neutering. Obviously parts you cut off won't get cancer but that does tend to be a rather extreme form of preventive medicine. The fact is, altering increases in the risk of some things and decreases the risk of others.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Liesje said:


> An oops litter with what? Two intact males mating?


Really?! Give me a little more credit than that. :headbang: 

Not every dog that comes into rescue is spayed/neutered before going into their foster home. Now, common sense would be, you don't place an unspayed female in a home with intact males but sometimes, you just don't know until they get examined more closely in the foster home. Some shelters and rescue just don't want to take the risk, that doesn't mean they think it's evil to have intact animals. 

The sweeping generalizations made on this thread are enough to drive a person crazy!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

IMO, males and females are so completely different it's not fair to lump them together. I wouldn't keep a female intact past maturity. In fact I don't ever plan to get another female because I am not comfortable with early spay/neuter but don't want to deal with the heat cycles before maturity especially since I already have males and they aren't going anywhere. Males have a much higher risk of cancer if they have a retained testicle. If I had a monorchid or cryptorchid I'd get him neutered at maturity for sure. But you're kind of proving my point, that it's really stupid for these blanket rules and assumptions to exist. In the end, the ones that suffer are the dogs that got dumped in the shelter, because now there are less homes available to foster and adopt. I found this out because my friend is looking for another dog so I asked my cousin to look at the shelter and tell me if there were any suitable dogs available. My friend, like me, has a young intact male, not a breeding dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alexandria610 said:


> That's a whole other subject that I don't want to get into, and I don't look down on you or anybody else that has intact animals - but there have been studies done that show that females and males that are left intact (my stepfather's dog included - he now has testicular cancer) have a much higher risk of prostate cancer, testicular cancer, uterine cancers or diseases, and mammarian cancer. It's of course not to say that ALL of them will get it, undoubtedly. The percentage is rather low if you compare the dogs to other intact dogs. But comparing to spayed/neutered animals, the risk is higher.
> 
> Just had to throw that out there for anyone that wasn't aware of these things. But since you're all dog lovers, I assume you probably know! Again, I don't believe you should alter your animals just because I pointed out some study findings, because each and every person should have the right to decide to either do or not do that to their animal - and I don't think of anyone any less for leaving animals intact (otherwise, my stepfather and I would have a strained relationship, but we most definitely do not).


Actually the jury is out on prostate cancer, they are now saying that neutering can cause a higher rate of that, as well as osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma and some cardiovascular issues. 

Of course the risk is higher for uterine and testicular, they items are no longer in there. But the risk is very low for those, where GSDs do have a higher rate of some of the others. 

Just throwing it out there to let people know if they weren't aware of these things.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdraven said:


> Really?! Give me a little more credit than that. :headbang:
> 
> Not every dog that comes into rescue is spayed/neutered before going into their foster home. Now, common sense would be, you don't place an unspayed female in a home with intact males but sometimes, you just don't know until they get examined more closely in the foster home. Some shelters and rescue just don't want to take the risk, that doesn't mean they think it's evil to have intact animals.
> 
> The sweeping generalizations made on this thread are enough to drive a person crazy!



You're preaching to the choir re. sweeping generalizations, lol. I don't ever plan to own another female dog, intact or not, so..... Plus our shelters and rescue spay/neuter the animals before they are adopted. They only reason I've ever seen them release an animal before being spayed/neutered were puppies 7-8 weeks old that went to their new homes because of a holiday and came back after the holiday to have their surgery. Other than those rare situations with puppies and wanting that window for socialization, I've never seen them release an intact animal and they do not do spay/neuter vouchers, it's done at the shelter. I'm not interested in female dogs or puppies from a shelter/rescue so there is absolutely no risk short of males being able to procreate with each other, but the shelter has adopted this new blanket rule and I'm not going to argue otherwise. As this thread illustrates, it's exhausting and futile trying to get people not to generalize. They are the ones generalizing, not me. I've had intact males, neutered males, spayed female... whatever makes the most sense for the dog in the environment.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> Actually the jury is out on prostate cancer, they are now saying that neutering can cause a higher rate of that, as well as osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma and some cardiovascular issues.
> 
> Of course the risk is higher for uterine and testicular, they items are no longer in there. But the risk is very low for those, where GSDs do have a higher rate of some of the others.
> 
> Just throwing it out there to let people know if they weren't aware of these things.


Ah, well thank you for letting me know and further educating me


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

AgileGSD said:


> Actually males risk of prostate cancer increases with neutering. Obviously parts you cut off won't get cancer but that does tend to be a rather extreme form of preventive medicine. The fact is, altering increases in the risk of some things and decreases the risk of others.


Actually the emergency vet told me the same thing (prostate cancer ris is higher in neutered animals than intact) when Grim went in with some problems that ultimately led to his neutering for an enlarged prostate at age 8.

Don't have any plans to neuter Beau either unless a problem develops and there is a reason to do so.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Nah, my heart isn't involved, just my unpopular logic.
> I am just throwing this out to see what I can catch. To see where people are on this topic.
> I have no agenda beyond that.


Sorry for quoting myself. Glad to see that there is a discussion about this.
The discussion is very enlightening.
Many see that breeding (whether professional or haphazard) opens the question of over-population. Some think it is worth considering as part of the decision to breed. Some don't care. Some think that as long as certain dogs are bred then who cares about over-population.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Actually the emergency vet told me the same thing (prostate cancer ris is higher in neutered animals than intact) when Grim went in with some problems that ultimately led to his neutering for an enlarged prostate at age 8.


 Not all vets are current on all issues.

Prostate infections is more common in intact males but according to current research prostate cancer is more common in neutered males.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Sorry for quoting myself. Glad to see that there is a discussion about this.
> The discussion is very enlightening.
> Many see that breeding (whether professional or haphazard) opens the question of over-population. Some think it is worth considering as part of the decision to breed. Some don't care. Some think that as long as certain dogs are bred then who cares about over-population.


PaddyD, you are quite the provocateur . Agree that it has been an interesting discussion to follow.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I love your video too, I made a couple last year, check them out. I do intake for Doberman and GSD rescue so I am at the shelters around town all the time. It's just depressing. Thank you for helping to get the word out.

The first video is from the quarantine room for bite cases, the public is not allowed in this room because these dogs do not go up for adoption. These dogs will all be euth'd because of bite histories. Most are puppies that just happen to nip or scratch someone during play, yes people turn in their puppy to the shelter and report it as bite when its just a puppy being a puppy. The little black scruffy dog in the video was a 4 time bite offender, her owners never kept her contained and let her roam loose around the neighborhood and she would chae after skateboarders and nip their heels. She was euthanized when she could have easily been kept safely inside the house by a caring owner. I hate it. You never forget their eyes.


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