# help with fuss/find left leg?



## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I have started teaching fuss with the flip finish to my 8 mo (this is my first time training it), and I've been luring her with food while placing my left leg back a step, luring her around, then walking forward a couple of steps to get her straight. About 50% of the time she will come by my leg nice and straight, the other 50% she's more turned towards me with her butt out and crooked and I have to move over beside her to make it the correct position before I mark & reward. 
Thought about using Ivan Balabanov method of basically putting her into position with her collar so that I can control her better. One of the problems is that I train OB using Michael Ellis methods so as I'm running around and getting her straight in front of me to get ready to lure her to the left, as soon as I stop, she stops and does an automatic sit, probably because she knows that command best. But I think this screws up the forward motion and can make it hard on me to lure her correctly. 
Can someone help me to figure out what to try from here? I don't think I'm just totally doing it wrong altogether since I've watched several youtube videos on the subject (some of them from people here) but obviously either I have some part of the exercise wrong or there is a better/easier way to train it (at least for my pup). I really want to get the focused heeling by ME video, but I got my first speeding ticket that ended up being really expensive. So I have to wait until the semester is over in a few weeks, and I start working. 
Suggestions? What has worked best for you?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Keep in mind this is completely novice advice, so take it for what it is worth. So far our work on the finish is going well and I think that is because Bison knew basic position very well before we even started heeling or the finish. 

You mentioned that she knows sit the best so she sat the end of the lure. I would suggest working over and over and over just getting her a good basic position until that is muscle memory. That way, when she does the flip it would be natural to land in basic, not slightly turned.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I see what you are saying and it makes sense. So did you just do the muscle memory heeling type exercises where you work them against a wall (to keep them straight)? and have your dog come into position that way to just teach her to sit straight at your side? We haven't done a lot of this yet because we didn't have a very good long straight barrier to work against until I just realized tonight that my hallway will work well 
Thanks for replying!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just a thought but where are you rewarding from? If you're rewarding from your right hand or towards the middle of your body there's going to be a tendency to **** out and face you in anticipation of the reward. I try to make sure I reward straight usually at about my left hip, or if I have a dog that's already cocked out I'll reward from the left side of the dog's muzzle. I'll keep the food and push on the left side of the muzzle and they'll usually turn their butt in, then I let go of the food.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Are you training the finish against a wall? If you are going to use Ellis's method, you will need a wall. Also the dog needs to know leash pressure already (yield to the leash). What he does is stand next to the wall, with just enough gap between you and the wall for the dog to go through, have the dog in front of you and then pull the dog through the gap with the leash.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Just a thought but where are you rewarding from? If you're rewarding from your right hand or towards the middle of your body there's going to be a tendency to **** out and face you in anticipation of the reward. I try to make sure I reward straight usually at about my left hip, or if I have a dog that's already cocked out I'll reward from the left side of the dog's muzzle. I'll keep the food and push on the left side of the muzzle and they'll usually turn their butt in, then I let go of the food.


I lure and reward with my left hand straight out in front/over her head. I'm not sure what you mean by pushing on the dog's left side of muzzle to get them to turn butt in......if you push on their left side, I see that making my dog's head turn in even more towards me and her butt turn out even more. Sorry I don't get it, you'll have to explain more. :help:


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Jason L said:


> Are you training the finish against a wall?


No, that's kind of what I was talking about in my second post, possibly trying to do that. The problem I see, though, is how will you get a dog into a flip finish while ending up close enough against a wall to force them to be straight......do I make sense? It seems like after I lure her around to facing forward, I will also have to make a step over the left to get her close enough to the wall to make a difference. Her butt isn't turned that far out from me...a few inches maybe, but enough that I don't want to reward in that position and make it a habit.


edit: I know what you are talking about with ME, I think I saw it somewhere once in a video clip from the leerburg newsletters. Is this how you trained it? Do you have a video of yourself or anyone else doing it this way?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

It's sort of tricky to explain in words. But if you feed from the left side (outside) of the muzzle, the head will turn away from you and into the hand and the butt will turn in. I see a lot of people do this with left turns in place as well. 

This is my dog with Claudia Romard a couple years ago at a seminar. He really wanted to turn his butt out. You can see initially she has to go very wide with her reward hand to get him to turn his butt in, but then he gets it. But you can see that her hand is always to the outside of the muzzle with him. This can be used as a tool to get the sits straighter in the fuss position. 




















And yes you can always build muscle memory against a fence or a wall for straight sits. Personally, now that I've learned more, I won't teach a finish until my dog is doing well in a straight line and sitting straight at a halt. Everyone has their own method though. Other people I know teach the basic first, then the finish, and only after the dog understands the position will they take a step to starting the actual heeling. I feel sometimes like I work backwards.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I always liked this article on how to do the flip. This is the way that DH taught his dog.
http://www.schutzhund-training.net/obedience/flip-finish.html


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

That is a lot of help.........thank you! nice pics too 

I think I thought you meant you were actually "pushing" into the dog's left side of muzzle.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I think I will try it your backwards way  the more I think about it, the more I think your way makes a lot of sense. Thanks again and I will report back after we have tried for a while.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> the other 50% she's more turned towards me with her butt out and crooked and I have to move over beside her to make it the correct position before I mark & reward.


Something I would definitely stop doing is changing your position. You are actually teaching her that you will correct to her and not that she must correct herself to your position. If she does not understand heel position even when just sitting in basic then I would not be teaching her the finish yet. 

You can determine where your dog puts its butt using the leash behind your legs and in your right hand and food in your left positioned to draw your dog's head out and away from your body. I teach heel position very early and do not accept anything that is incorrect.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

ugavet2012 said:


> I see what you are saying and it makes sense. So did you just do the muscle memory heeling type exercises where you work them against a wall (to keep them straight)? and have your dog come into position that way to just teach her to sit straight at your side? We haven't done a lot of this yet because we didn't have a very good long straight barrier to work against until I just realized tonight that my hallway will work well
> Thanks for replying!


I see you got some other help that might work better for you, but since you asked, I will still answer. As I mentioned, I taught basic position first. 

*Step 1.* I started by telling him to sit/stay then I would step into place next to him and say “Spot, Good Spot” (I used this command because I wasn’t doing formal training with him at the time, but thought I might in the future and didn’t want to “use up” heel or fuss) then release and treat. 
*Step 2.* Once he knew what “Spot” was then I would stand pretty close to him and say “Spot” then pat my leg. Because he knew the position, he would pop into place. As soon as he would hit it right, I would mark and treat. If he hit crooked, I would say “no, spot” and pat my leg again. If he didn’t fix himself, then I moved away a bit. 
*Step 3.* Then I moved further away, at different angles still using both command and hand signal until he would reliably hit the position from any angle. When he was in front, he naturally did a flip around “finish” to get into position.
*Step 4.* Stopped using the hand signal, and just use command
*Step 5. *When we started SchH, I decided I liked the around the back finish better so I switched to that and just lured him with a treat to the right before giving him the command. I also switched to “fuss”. To make sure it was clean with the finish, I stood in the kitchen with just enough room between me and the cabinets for him to sit. Then I practiced over and over from a front to a heel position until he knew it perfect. Word of caution though, I had to mix up the commands by having him do other things between because he started anticipating.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It taught "find the leg" (either a flip finish or just getting to basic position from anywhere) by first doing perch work to build the dog's rear end awareness. Once he understood how to do tighter pivots right or left, I had him come back on the ground and then would call him to heel position from random positions either near me at some angle, or even several feet away, or we'd be heeling along and I'd take a big leap to my right and he'd have to adjust, etc. I used a lure and reward to help guide him and sometimes also used a leash and collar so I could have more physical control over his head/front while he pivoted the back end (the leash/collar I used more when doing the actual flip finish...doing "find the leg" games I prefer to let him work it out and reward when it is correct).


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Something I would definitely stop doing is changing your position. You are actually teaching her that you will correct to her and not that she must correct herself to your position. If she does not understand heel position even when just sitting in basic then I would not be teaching her the finish yet.
> 
> You can determine where your dog puts its butt using the leash behind your legs and in your right hand and food in your left positioned to draw your dog's head out and away from your body. I teach heel position very early and do not accept anything that is incorrect.


This was my thoughts about it but Michael Ellis actually does this in one of his videos when he's working a puppy. Lures for the position and if they aren't quite straight, moves himself to make it straight. I think this is just in the very beginning but I could be wrong. I only JUST started working on heel as I've only had her about 2 mths. I figured it was okay since ME does it and he obviously knows what he's doing. But I see what you are saying because that was my original thought. But I think it's more just in the beginning to teach the dog what the correct position looks like from their point of view (just my guess). 

I've gotten a lot of good advice and even more in a PM. Thanks everyone and I will update when I figure out what works for us.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I know why it is done, just don't agree with it.  I also don't allow incorrect sits when teaching the sit, or incorrect downs, etc. When under stress an animal will always fall back on its foundation so why not teach what is correct from the beginning.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

lhczth said:


> I know why it is done, just don't agree with it.  I also don't allow incorrect sits when teaching the sit, or incorrect downs, etc. When under stress an animal will always fall back on its foundation so why not teach what is correct from the beginning.



I agree with you but whenever I have a thought that contradicts what an experienced professional says........I tend to think I am wrong.  But now I can only reward the correct way without feeling like I'm screwing up :laugh:


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

One of the problems with videos and such is that the professional can only relay basic "this is what I usually do" information and can't help the end user problem solve.

Moving into the dog to teach the dog to be comfortable and focused in that position and for the dog to get used to that general location and viewpoint is fine. But when teaching that, have the dog sit and then move yourself. The only command the dog is executing is the sit.

Once you are working on the dog finding heel position herself, the dog must do it herself without you moving to create correct position.

This is one of the most important parts of marker training such as ME uses. Initially when the dog is figuring out an exercise it is ok to reward any effort made forward toward the desired goal in order to help the dog learn in a positive manner. But once the dog comprehends even a portion of the exercise, only correctness should be rewarded. Never rewarding a mistake and only rewarding perfection is one of the more difficult parts for handlers to master with marker training. But it's also one of the most important because every time you click or say Yes for less than exactly what you want, you have taught the dog that less than what you want is acceptable. Enough rewarding of mistakes, and those mistakes become the dog's foundation and that can cause problems forever.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> This is one of the most important parts of marker training such as ME uses. Initially when the dog is figuring out an exercise it is ok to reward any effort made forward toward the desired goal in order to help the dog learn in a positive manner. But once the dog comprehends even a portion of the exercise, only correctness should be rewarded. Never rewarding a mistake and only rewarding perfection is one of the more difficult parts for handlers to master with marker training. But it's also one of the most important because every time you click or say Yes for less than exactly what you want, you have taught the dog that less than what you want is acceptable. Enough rewarding of mistakes, and those mistakes become the dog's foundation and that can cause problems forever.


And this is what I was getting at that I was doing. I only moved over *to her* for maybe the first 2 sessions we tried it in (and when I say session, I rarely mean we worked on ONLY fuss, it's usually lots of stuff). I just quit doing it after that because I wanted to find out how to perform the exercise more correctly before I screwed her up. 
I wish we had a club to go to at this point, but I am undecided on which to go to.....(bad first experience at one).

Everyone feel free to contiinue to post helpful things......but I just wanted to mentioned that someone already answered most of my questions very well through PM  so if you have someone else to help......please don't feel obligated to post to me as well.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is flip finish when the dog is in front of you
and you say heel and the dog passes
on right, walks behind you and sits on your left side?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

No, that is the around the back finish. The flip, or military, finish is when the dog goes from in front directly to heel on the left side, without passing behind the handler.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

doggiedad said:


> is flip finish when the dog is in front of you
> and you say heel and the dog passes
> on right, walks behind you and sits on your left side?


Nope, a flip finish is a left finish (you describe a right finish) - the dog moves from front position directly to your left side. Some will just scoot their butt around in an arc, others will bounce in the air and quickly "flip" into place, others will kind of step forward and turn into you until they are in place.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I have to ask this, because maybe I am crazy and would like to get to the bottom of it. Maybe it should have it's own thread. Anyway, do you all find it common and acceptable to smack/slap your dog upside the head when you are training off leash in Schutzhund if your dog doesn't obey? 
Hey, I'm not one of those that is against corrections but I use leash corrections.........this just seemed a little too much for me, and if I'll be told to do that while in training, I don't think Schutzhund is for me.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

ugavet2012 said:


> I have to ask this, because maybe I am crazy and would like to get to the bottom of it. Maybe it should have it's own thread. Anyway, do you all find it common and acceptable to smack/slap your dog upside the head when you are training off leash in Schutzhund if your dog doesn't obey?
> Hey, I'm not one of those that is against corrections but I use leash corrections.........this just seemed a little too much for me, and if I'll be told to do that while in training, I don't think Schutzhund is for me.


If they were truly hitting them upside the head, NO, I don't think that is normal or OK. I have never done this, nor have I seen anyone in my club do this. I saw it happen at a trial once. Someone was warming up their dog, didn't like what they did and cuffed them upside the head. It was very disturbing to me.

Just keep in mind that even if someone does tell you to do that in training, you don't have to comply. You are your dog's advocate and if you don't protect her from harsh training practices, no one will.

That being said, I have tapped my dog's cheek, top of the head, or ear to get his attention. Similar to taping somone on the shoulder. I have also heard of doing a firm fast neck tap for correction like a dog would do to another dog. I have seen my dogs do this to each other, and though I probably wouldn't use the technique myself, I wouldn't have a real problem with it. I think you would have to provide a little more detail to really understand what was going on.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> If they were truly hitting them upside the head, NO, I don't think that is normal or OK. I have never done this, nor have I seen anyone in my club do this. I saw it happen at a trial once. Someone was warming up their dog, didn't like what they did and cuffed them upside the head. It was very disturbing to me.
> 
> Just keep in mind that even if someone does tell you to do that in training, you don't have to comply. You are your dog's advocate and if you don't protect her from harsh training practices, no one will.
> 
> That being said, I have tapped my dog's cheek or top of the head to get his attention. I have also hear of doing a firm fast neck tap for correction like a dog would do to another dog. I have seen my dogs to this to each other, and though I probably wouldn't use the technique myself, I wouldn't have a real problem with it. I think you would have to provide a little more detail to really understand what was going on.


LOL this was no tap. This was a hauled off and slapped the dog on the left side of the head near the eye so that it flinched and cowered.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

ugavet2012 said:


> LOL this was no tap. This was a hauled off and slapped the dog on the left side of the head near the eye so that it flinched and cowered.


I haven't been involved in SchH for long and our club is a positive training club, so others can probably answer better if this is a common practice. But, no that would absolutely NOT be ok with me.

Was this at your club? What did the other members think about it?


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

No one said anything. Here's the real kicker......when we first got there, we were told by 2-3 different people (out of 10 maybe) how this club trains with all positive methods and how they don't need to train around distraction because they use positive methods (don't get me started on that rubbish). Then I proceeded to watch the one guy smack his dog hard on the head and then one of the guys who went on and one about the "only positive methods" stuff we saw later repeatedly kicking his dog (pretty darn hard) when he was crowding during fuss. When I hear "positive methods" I equate that to "positive reinforcement." Last I checked, kicking and smacking your dog wasn't included in PR.  I am all for corrections in proofing your dog, but this was a little out of hand and borderline abuse. Not to mention the guy with the crowding dog was only kicking/punishing his dog for this about 1/3 the time. His dog probably had no idea what it was being punished for.....which was evidenced by the fact that it didn't even work. Luckily from what I saw these were both pretty hard intact adult male dogs and they bounced back pretty quick.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

ugavet2012 said:


> I have to ask this, because maybe I am crazy and would like to get to the bottom of it. Maybe it should have it's own thread. Anyway, do you all find it common and acceptable to smack/slap your dog upside the head when you are training off leash in Schutzhund if your dog doesn't obey?
> Hey, I'm not one of those that is against corrections but I use leash corrections.........this just seemed a little too much for me, and if I'll be told to do that while in training, I don't think Schutzhund is for me.


 
Seems like a good way to hurt your hand.

Common? I wouldn't say it's unheard of. I don't think the vast majority of people are out there beating up their dogs, but if you've been doing SchH for any length of time at all, you've seen it done. 

Acceptable? (I'm probably going to get yelled at for this one) Depends on if it was effective and clear. I have seen people do this where it was not inappropriate and was clear to the dog. And I have seen people who are just angry and it was not appropriate.

I think another good question would be Necessary? And my answer there would be absolutely not. There are other ways and if someone wanted you to smack your dog for non compliance and you didn't want to, well then you should never have to. There are dozens of different ways to train a dog and they can all be effective.

I think the majority of handlers/trainers out there all start new dogs positively. And then it depends on the style/skill of the handler as to how they proceed from there. Some trainers (including very good and high level competitors) can get brutal with their dogs. This goes back to an older style of training. I saw an old German guy once who had competed pretty successfully at the BSP. Someone asked him why he only had a fursaver on his young dog. He said he did not need anything else, because he had his hands. I have to say he was effective and clear with his dog who never flinched or became hand shy. I've seen people go nuts with prong collars and e-collars, and heck even flat collars too. I suppose that like anything else, a correction should serve a purpose. Corrections should be as well thought out as rewards. It should never be administered emotionally in anger or frustration and it's seems to me that's more what you saw. Someone getting emotional and inappropriate with their corrections.

Also, just as a note regarding club members. Training can be a little like parenting. If you see a kid getting spanked by their parents maybe you're deeply offended and call Child services because no one should lay a hand on children....or maybe you're more Right on! Kids get away with too much these days... Either way. Unless it's outright abuse you probably don't say anything because it's not your kid. Same with dogs. I know I've seen some harder trainers before and while perhaps the majority of people at the club do not operate that way, they don't say anything. However. I will say that anytime I've seen training take a turn towards abuse in any of the groups I've participated in someone has ALWAYS stopped it. Pushing a dog too far hurts everyone in the sport.


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