# IPObservations Episode 3 Handler Help



## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

Episode 3 is about Handler Help Faults in IPO Dog Sport and how to avoid throwing points away in big trials. 

Please share it on facebook and doggy forums if you find it interesting. 

As always let me know what you think  

Thanks!

Ash.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Another great vidoe. Keep up the good work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Exellent!!! Love to see your dogs in the videos - so happy and snappy and precise (even with the handler help and all. )


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Oooh, great topic!!! Thanks for the hard work you are putting into these Ashley!

3:59 trick is amazing!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Love it, as usual! I really enjoy these.

Great job! Keep them coming..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah-ha!

Wonderful explanation and something I personally struggle with.

In Dressage I was trained to prepare my mount with subtle cues for the next movement such as the half-halt, or looking in the direction of the turn just before executing the turn. The horses felt the slight shifts in weight and responded accordingly. These were very subtle but effective!

I struggled with why this isn't allowed in IPO, not to mention feeling frustrated as I was so used to communicating to my horses and previous dogs this way.

My trainer has been catching me at this and warning me but I didn't have the 'big picture'.

Thanks so much, love these videos!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Shared on multiple pages on FB and people picked it up from there.

excellent points on recognizing handler help. That is why it is critical to have a good training dircetor that will catch it, correct it and explain it. It is better to know the rules, the impact and the deductions at the get go than make the mistakes in the BH or IPO1 and then spend more time fixing it.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ah-ha!
> 
> Wonderful explanation and something I personally struggle with.
> 
> ...


I understand that completely... I have the same issue here. 

I did eventing and was on the Dressage team back in college. When I got into training in IPO, it was SO hard for me to understand that I could not cue my dog, or help in any way.... only words. The horse world is much different when it comes to "handler help"...

I still struggle with it. Especially with the puppy... which is gaining me some bad habits!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for posting this! I'm not going crazy! 

I'd been heavily involved in horses from 1976 until a couple of years ago.

My poor trainer (who is not a horse person) doesn't get why I'm still stuck on some of these things, old habits and all, 'Whaddya mean I can't look in the direction I want my dog to go?' LOL!

He also says 'pattern training' is a no-no but in reading Sheila Booth's book "Schutzhund Obedience, Training in Drive" she explains her reasoning why it's O.K.

I'm going to be good though and keep working at it!




TrickyShepherd said:


> I understand that completely... I have the same issue here.
> 
> I did eventing and was on the Dressage team back in college. When I got into training in IPO, it was SO hard for me to understand that I could not cue my dog, or help in any way.... only words. The horse world is much different when it comes to "handler help"...
> 
> I still struggle with it. Especially with the puppy... which is gaining me some bad habits!!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Thanks for posting this! I'm not going crazy!
> 
> I'd been heavily involved in horses from 1976 until a couple of years ago.
> 
> ...


Here too. I'm 24 and have been riding since I was 3 1/2. I sold my last horse what will be 2 years ago this summer. I've dabbled in all different disciplines... and it's the same for all. Help the horse with your aids. Eyes, shoulders, hands, hips, upper/lower legs, and heels. When jumping... Look to the direction of your next jump.... let the horse know where you want them to go next.... this gives you your lead change and tight turns coming off the jump. Dressage, is the same... lots and lots of "handler help". 

I'm notorious for looking where I want them to go... or when going into a down/sit in motion, my hand moves to "help" the dog. I know I shouldn't, and I try not to, but it's such a habit. With Duke I had to be very animated to get him to work "up" and not flat like he is naturally. And with the puppy, you help them to understand when they are young..

Like you, I have a trainer who is not a horse person either. So for him, he just doesn't get why it's so ingrained in my head.

Another problem I have from coming from the horse training first is.... because I dealt with a lot of high energy horses (OTTB, Warmbloods, horses that were giving owners issues, and rescued mustangs), It was very hard for me to be high energy and silly when training the dogs. Back with the horses, I had to have very quiet energy, very calming, and relaxing. That's been my hardest lesson to learn.... Still find myself going "flat" as my trainer says. lol. Like we all say out at class.... we are there for handler training more then dog training.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh yeah, I'm so with you on the 'energy' aspect too. I like the OTTB ponies too, poor man's dressage horse. Though some of them would be referred to as 'unstable' in their temperament! LOL! So pony, did you wake up in the same reality today? :crazy: (warmbloods are a mixed bag in my experience, some hot some not)

I have another horsie friend who got into GSDs and training (thanks to my corrupting influence hehehe) anyhoo....she has the same problems with the energy, she's very steady and calm and her dog isn't really a higher drive type. It ends up working against her.

It's so hard because these habits do become so ingrained over the years (and years and years...not that I'm old or anything ...ahem.... :blush: )




TrickyShepherd said:


> Here too. I'm 24 and have been riding since I was 3 1/2. I sold my last horse what will be 2 years ago this summer. I've dabbled in all different disciplines... and it's the same for all. Help the horse with your aids. Eyes, shoulders, hands, hips, upper/lower legs, and heels. When jumping... Look to the direction of your next jump.... let the horse know where you want them to go next.... this gives you your lead change and tight turns coming off the jump. Dressage, is the same... lots and lots of "handler help".
> 
> I'm notorious for looking where I want them to go... or when going into a down/sit in motion, my hand moves to "help" the dog. I know I shouldn't, and I try not to, but it's such a habit. With Duke I had to be very animated to get him to work "up" and not flat like he is naturally. And with the puppy, you help them to understand when they are young..
> 
> ...


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh yeah, I'm so with you on the 'energy' aspect too. I like the OTTB ponies too, poor man's dressage horse. Though some of them would be referred to as 'unstable' in their temperament! LOL! So pony, did you wake up in the same reality today? :crazy: (warmbloods are a mixed bag in my experience, some hot some not)
> 
> I have another horsie friend who got into GSDs and training (thanks to my corrupting influence hehehe) anyhoo....she has the same problems with the energy, she's very steady and calm and her dog isn't really a higher drive type. It ends up working against her.
> 
> It's so hard because these habits do become so ingrained over the years (and years and years...not that I'm old or anything ...ahem.... :blush: )


Haha! Oh yeah. Some of the best horses I've had have been OTTBs. I like crazy... I'm a magnet for it. I can't remember a normal animal I've had. All my horses have been nuts, and so have all my dogs! :crazy: Makes life exciting. BUT, that energy and "up" way of training gets me in trouble ALL the time with IPO. It' really hard to develop that again.

I'm getting better at it.... but, it's really hard to change something so heavily ingrained.  eventually I'll get it! Good to hear I'm not the only one.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

We always encourage people to be calm with the dogs. Working dogs should have lots of energy, the trainer has to contain it and turn it into something useful.

There should be as little energy as possible going in with maximum energy coming out.

I was actually thinking about doing an episode on energy investment in training with regards to helpers specifically.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Vislor said:


> We always encourage people to be calm with the dogs. Working dogs should have lots of energy, the trainer has to contain it and turn it into something useful.
> 
> There should be as little energy as possible going in with maximum energy coming out.
> 
> I was actually thinking about doing an episode on energy investment in training with regards to helpers specifically.


I agree to a point, and not all of us have all working dogs. 

My WGSL is very flat in OB. If I have little energy and am just calmly going around.... he will completely lose interest and go flat. If I'm upbeat and play around with him, or make fun noises.... He's actually very up, and has a blast.

My puppy is another example. She's a very stubborn, hard bitch. If I wasn't fun, and didn't have that happy fun energy... she wouldn't want anything to do with me. Now I have changed that dog from going off on her own... to running back to me to play and coming to me with all her toys. She's now very up in her OB, and is actually becoming more "flashy".

I think it depends what dog you handle. Each is an individual. Some need a very calm handler, with a very stable, quiet voice and motions. While there are others, that need that excitement to lift them up and bring out that happy bounce in their step... makes it more fun for them.

Here at training, we base it on the individual dog. Our dogs feed off our energy. If they need more pep in their step.... have fun with them, play, be exciting. If they are bouncing up and down, doing nuts.... then they need to be held back a bit. Calming, confident, quiet handler will be best. We support a lot of energy in our training, especially with dogs like my WGSL. He works just fine, and is a great dog.... but he needs more energy in his handler.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

I understand that and puppies especially need lots of energy going in to get a little out, but its like the body language thing, in a trial you can't give loads of motivation. You can praise a dog between each phase, but the goal is for the dog to give all its energy for little to no input apart from the vocal commands.

From what you said regarding how you need to be with the horses, thats perfect for my dogs! :thumbup:


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Vislor said:


> I understand that and puppies especially need lots of energy going in to get a little out, but its like the body language thing, in a trial you can't give loads of motivation. You can praise a dog between each phase, but the goal is for the dog to give all its energy for little to no input apart from the vocal commands.
> 
> From what you said regarding how you need to be with the horses, thats perfect for my dogs! :thumbup:


Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.


Me and dad are currently training 4 young dogs between us (plus an extra 3 12 week old pups fast growing up for dad to train, I'm glad I'm not him) specifically for competition and no two dogs are trained exactly the same - its a real nightmare getting your head into a different gear for different dogs I hate it. 

To be honest between my 2 little females I much prefer working with the older one because she's less drivey and more clear headed and to go from that to the other lunatic is a huge drain on my brain.

I think to do quality training with more than 2 dogs would be too much for me, especially if they're completely different personalities.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> no two dogs are trained exactly the same - its a real nightmare getting your head into a different gear for different dogs I hate it.


I feel for the decoy/helpers....they have to work dogs in different phases of development, and not one dog is like the other. Transitioning between sessions is difficult when only one helper is working many dogs. I give helpers so much credit for what (you)they do!
That could be another subject for a video!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup.

My Smitty dog is an adult rescue of dubious ancestory. While he has good energy and stamina if I'm not 'interesting' to him he totally tunes out and looses his bounce, sort-a like a child sitting quietly looking out the window pining to be playing outside with friends.

For years I could not get this dog to engage...and it was because in his world I was boring, calm, sensible. LOL!

Now that I'm learning to be more 'energetic' he's coming around and I'm looking forward to toning it down....some ...someday?   I've achieved results with him that a few years ago I never thought he would be able to do.

Ilda, while not a working line is a lot easier to get 'up' and engaged then Smitty. 





TrickyShepherd said:


> Yep, I do agree with you and understand the concept completely. But, you work your way up to that with some dogs. Not all can start that way. Also, not all dogs are for trialing and competition. My WGSL is not. He will never be. He's more personal protection and we just have fun with the OB portion. He's good at it... but, can't do somethings IPO requires past BH. Which is ok with me. We have fun and that's the most important thing. There's nothing wrong with training for intense trialing (that's what my pup is for), but that's not how everyone is going to work. Which is why I stated that... going from my crazy horses that I had to be 100% quiet with, to my WGSL GSD that I had to be very up and fun with.... was a hard transition. Especially when working other dogs now that are the opposite. It's like having multiple personalities. How I train Storm (WL... training for IPO trialing), and how I train Duke (SL)... are two completely different techniques. Almost to the point of having two different personalities.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL!!! Me too!

Well, except my last TB, he was a special pony I called him my 'reward' horse. 

Enjoyed sharing with you and reading Ashley's comments too! Very informative. 






TrickyShepherd said:


> Haha! Oh yeah. Some of the best horses I've had have been OTTBs. I like crazy... I'm a magnet for it. I can't remember a normal animal I've had. All my horses have been nuts, and so have all my dogs! :crazy: Makes life exciting. BUT, that energy and "up" way of training gets me in trouble ALL the time with IPO. It' really hard to develop that again.
> 
> I'm getting better at it.... but, it's really hard to change something so heavily ingrained.  eventually I'll get it! Good to hear I'm not the only one.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Vislor said:


> Me and dad are currently training 4 young dogs between us (plus an extra 3 12 week old pups fast growing up for dad to train, I'm glad I'm not him) specifically for competition and no two dogs are trained exactly the same - its a real nightmare getting your head into a different gear for different dogs I hate it.
> 
> To be honest between my 2 little females I much prefer working with the older one because she's less drivey and more clear headed and to go from that to the other lunatic is a huge drain on my brain.
> 
> I think to do quality training with more than 2 dogs would be too much for me, especially if they're completely different personalities.


Absolutely! It's a whole other ball game when you are going between a few dogs. Definitely not easy, and you do have to bend your personality to bring out the best from all those different personalities in the dogs. It can be a lot of fun... but very stressful at times. That's why in between working my dogs, I give myself a good 10min break. Not because I'm tired, but instead for my mind to switch over. I sit there, and get into the mindset I need for the next dog... think about what I need to accomplish, and get to it. If I'm not in that mindset, it's just going to lose steam from the very beginning. Handler energy is a HUGE deal when working with dogs..... which is what makes a good handler... knowing what kind of energy you need for each different personality and being able to tweak your own, even when it's against your personality. I'm not a bubbly happy go lucky person.... but, when working Duke... I have to be.

It's a challenge I've gone full force into. It still needs a lot of work... but I love seeing how I can change everything from just a little tweak to my energy and actions.

Like my trainer says "If he's not doing it.... then what are YOU doing wrong?!". Usually, I can pick out a few things easily. haha 



onyx'girl said:


> I feel for the decoy/helpers....they have to work dogs in different phases of development, and not one dog is like the other. Transitioning between sessions is difficult when only one helper is working many dogs. I give helpers so much credit for what (you)they do!
> That could be another subject for a video!


I definitely have a lot of respect for them. Ours has been a huge help. Between him and my trainer, I'm shocked how quickly they can have answers to work each and every different dog correctly.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup.
> 
> My Smitty dog is an adult rescue of dubious ancestory. While he has good energy and stamina if I'm not 'interesting' to him he totally tunes out and looses his bounce, sort-a like a child sitting quietly looking out the window pining to be playing outside with friends.
> 
> ...


Sounds exactly like Duke. For months I couldn't get him excited to do anything. He was so flat. Every time I said Fuss.... it looked like another part of him died. Almost like asking a kid to clean their room. 

Now, he's so much fun to work.... he's upbeat, wagging his tail, eye contact. He just wants to make me happy, so eager to please. We have a blast.... even if I do look stupid from time to time! lol 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL!!! Me too!
> 
> Well, except my last TB, he was a special pony I called him my 'reward' horse.
> 
> Enjoyed sharing with you and reading Ashley's comments too! Very informative.


I've worked a few quiet horses that were the most gentle souls. It was always so relaxing and a relief from the crazy. But, I can't say I ever owned any like that. I keep telling myself, the next one will be a nice quiet horse.... I'm a little older now and have been out of the saddle for a few years, so I'm not ready for psycho again. However, in the back of my mind, I'm sure I'll still end up with a crazy, unstable, no one is ever brave enough, horse. Happens every time. lol!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't have a dog I can do any protection work with (thanks to Ilda's hips  ) but I'm sticking with the IPO OB because, simply put, nothing else worked with Smitty. Now he's doing beautiful snappy downs/sits/long downs and we're getting our sits in motion polished up too. Who knows..maybe I'll be able to put a BH on the goofy ole guy! He gets so excited to go training now. I chalk it up to getting involved in IPO and the training methods (trainers I've used are mostly in tune with the M.E. school of training).

(in red) Ah the crazy ponies. There was a time I was fearless. When in college I couldn't afford a horse so I worked at a trail riding stable and would ride any rank ole horse they had.

I've got a few years on you (will be 50 this fall) and after awhile when you have one of those 'unplanned flying dismounts' you realize you don't bounce anymore, you break. I just can't afford to get hurt so no more 'challenges' for me. If I can have a horse again someday it'll be a nice quiet trail pony, probably gaited too....

I find being involved with the dogs with goals in mind helps me overcome missing the horse habit. 

btw I wish I had known about dog sports when I was much younger....had time to grow into the sport, more energy, more money. So it's great you are discovering this now! 



TrickyShepherd said:


> <snipped>
> 
> 
> Sounds exactly like Duke. For months I couldn't get him excited to do anything. He was so flat. Every time I said Fuss.... it looked like another part of him died. Almost like asking a kid to clean their room.
> ...


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't have a dog I can do any protection work with (thanks to Ilda's hips  ) but I'm sticking with the IPO OB because, simply put, nothing else worked with Smitty. Now he's doing beautiful snappy downs/sits/long downs and we're getting our sits in motion polished up too. Who knows..maybe I'll be able to put a BH on the goofy ole guy! He gets so excited to go training now. I chalk it up to getting involved in IPO and the training methods (trainers I've used are mostly in tune with the M.E. school of training).
> 
> (in red) Ah the crazy ponies. There was a time I was fearless. When in college I couldn't afford a horse so I worked at a trail riding stable and would ride any rank ole horse they had.
> 
> ...


Lol! I was the same in college and high school. All the horses people were afraid of..... I had to go train. In college, my coach put me on all the nuts and because I'm short... all the nutty devilish ponies! Those ponies were MUCH crazier then ANY OTTB I've ever known! Thank gosh the fall wasn't too far! lol! But, I was the only one that would get on them. 

I miss those days terribly, and it kills me every time I see a horse... I just want to jump on! Like you though, I find comfort in working the dogs. It eases my mind whenever I feel the pain of not being around there horses anymore. It's time away from all the stress in life. And... I don't need to drive anywhere to do it. I can just take them out front, and start working. Even if the other two look at me like I'm nuts.... No matter what time it is, Storm is always ready to work. I just say the word and she's up and going. It's great.

Someday, I'll be fortunate enough again to have another horse.... then I'll be able to have both my passions.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like we are kindred spirits in many ways! :thumbup:

(with apologies to Ashley for the side track...but we were talking about his latest video at training today.  )


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sounds like we are kindred spirits in many ways! :thumbup:
> 
> (with apologies to Ashley for the side track...but we were talking about his latest video at training today.  )



 Sounds like it. 

And yes, Ashley, I do apologize for stealing your thread a bit..... you videos just always bring out some good conversation. Although, sometimes not quite on topic.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Sounds like it.
> 
> And yes, Ashley, I do apologize for stealing your thread a bit..... you videos just always bring out some good conversation. Although, sometimes not quite on topic.


I don't mind at all! I find it interesting reading your tangents anyway. Like I said in the last video, I'm learning new stuff myself from the comments that are being generated by the videos.

Its great


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't know if you have decided on future videos, but would love to see something that explains what protection is, and isn't. 

Like many others, when I first started with Schutzhund, I believed that the protection phase was nothing more but a game of tug with the helper, because, why in the world would anyone want an aggressive dog???? 

I also believed, like many people do, that any dog that likes to play tug could do Protection. Then with time, I grew to understand that protection is coming from a place of utter confidence and control, a desire to fight the helper, not just play tug, and saw the 'elegance'  of the training (when done right), how it brings out that confidence and control in a dog, how it identifies dogs that don't have the heart for it, even if they can go through the motions, and how awesome it is to have a dog that gives everything its got, but stays cool headed and responsive.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't know if you have decided on future videos, but would love to see something that explains what protection is, and isn't.
> 
> Like many others, when I first started with Schutzhund, I believed that the protection phase was nothing more but a game of tug with the helper, because, why in the world would anyone want an aggressive dog????
> 
> I also believed, like many people do, that any dog that likes to play tug could do Protection. Then with time, I grew to understand that protection is coming from a place of utter confidence and control, a desire to fight the helper, not just play tug, and saw the 'elegance'  of the training (when done right), how it brings out that confidence and control in a dog, how it identifies dogs that don't have the heart for it, even if they can go through the motions, and how awesome it is to have a dog that gives everything its got, but stays cool headed and responsive.


I was thinking of doing something like that. I didn't know exactly how I would tackle it. A topic like that could get go very wrong very easily.

I'd want to satisfy the general public why protection is a really positive exercise for a dog to learn if done properly, but I'd also want to maintain that its serious work for all the people who dismiss IPO as a 'sport' and not for 'real dogs', again if its done properly, its an epic challenge for dogs mentally and physically.

Striking the balance is always hard. Its got to be presented flawlessly. It might take some time to formulate...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Its got to be presented flawlessly. It might take some time to formulate...


That is why I think you are the right person for the job! Your ability to distill very complex and abstract concepts into pithy, insightful, fun and easy to understand examples and explanations is just amazing. I bet there has been like a bazillion people watching your videos, new to IPO and old, experienced hats, having "AHA" moments at hearing those concepts so 'elegantly' verbalized.

Willing to wait, and looking forward to it!


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> That is why I think you are the right person for the job! Your ability to distill very complex and abstract concepts into pithy, insightful, fun and easy to understand examples and explanations is just amazing. I bet there has been like a bazillion people watching your videos, new to IPO and old, experienced hats, having "AHA" moments at hearing those concepts so 'elegantly' verbalized.
> 
> Willing to wait, and looking forward to it!


Thanks very much :blush:


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> That is why I think you are the right person for the job! Your ability to distill very complex and abstract concepts into pithy, insightful, fun and easy to understand examples and explanations is just amazing. I bet there has been like a bazillion people watching your videos, new to IPO and old, experienced hats, having "AHA" moments at hearing those concepts so 'elegantly' verbalized.
> 
> Willing to wait, and looking forward to it!



I agree 100%

Once again Ash, you did a fantastic job getting the info across in a manner that even non-dog people can grasp, but not being boring to those with knowledge.


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