# kennel: vom Gruenfeld or Schwarze-Hunde: Black GSD



## prinesurf (Dec 5, 2016)

Any feedback on this Kennel (I read an old post from 2014) *vom Grunenfeld* in So. CA, 
it has 2 websites with sparse info. 4germanshepherds.com and blackgermanshep.com.
The website also says "*Vom Schwarze-Hunde German Shepherds*"
they appear to be the same breeder just one of the sites showcasing the black dogs?

As a designer Im always surprised at some lousy websites breeders put out there. Incomplete info, head shots without full body shots. My impression from her site is she is a large scale breeder, focused on her stud dogs and has an army of females (she appears to adopt out the retired ones) she appears to be breeding her young black male at just 22months so obviously she can't have any hip screens done on him.

But I know you can't judge a book by its cover, so maybe she is missing the mark in her image but has excellent dogs?

I am an experienced GSD owner looking for a 2nd dog. I am really partial to a black coat (sorry no offense) so this is my priority. Im sure I can find a well balanced, well reared, solid nerve, all black dog, it just takes some extra work. (and some help from fellow enthusiasts : )
This dog will be a companion first, but active in obedience and nose work. 

Can anyone else recommend a breeder of black dogs? anywhere USA. 
(I also realize the black is recessive and could appear in colored litters of working dog lines, depending upon the genes.) so I could find a black from a breeder that has other colors as well.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I've had a few black litters, and black puppies in the past, but my current litter are all sables. Wolfstraum will be doing a breeding in the next month or so, with one of her (black) females. Depending on which male she goes with, there might be blacks, but I think she's got a few people already on the list. There are not a lot of breeders who breed specifically for Blacks. Most reputable breeders, color is not the main reason for the breeding selection. I sure do love my Black girls. Good Luck


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You should contact her and talk to her directly or email if you are interested in her dogs. Several people here have dogs from her kennel. Not everyone is interested in having a flashy website.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ask here. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/


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## prinesurf (Dec 5, 2016)

thanks everyone for your info. I didn't know about the Facebook page.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Since no one else posted and since I have knowledge, there are errors in post #1. I looked at over 50 breeders, quickly dropped most and ended up with a good list of reputable breeders. Jackie was way up there in terms of temperament and structure. This is just my own personal experience, but the small, family breeders I thought I liked didn't breed enough dogs to understand their lines. A friend visited Jackie, spent well over an hour there, saw her whole kennel and independently of me, felt that this was where she is going to get her next dog. She hasn't yet but she will. I also spent time talking to her so I have more information than the OP. 

First, she is not a large breeder, she is medium sized. Her males are all imports or bred from very high quality import lines. In contrast, several of the breeders I looked at use mainly dogs from friends kennels to bring in new blood. Compared to other breeders I spoke to some of whom have so many females they can't even show them on their websites, she has a limited number of females who breed. 

She got her first Sch title as a teenager. She started a Sch club in her area. She understands breeding and genetics. I saw on her website she recently and probably suddenly, lost one of her best stud dogs. She only has a few males. The replacement dog she is using is one of the most beautiful dogs with a good temperament that my friend has ever seen. She would have bought that dog on the spot had he been for sale. I think she is going to get a progeny in a year or two. Rather than making a snap judgment about Jackie's breeding practices, someone interested should just ask her.

She does not just "sell off" her females. Like any breeder, they will keep females from their own litters as possible breeding dogs. If it doesn't work out, it's often a good idea to sell a young female to a sport home where their talents aren't wasted. I saw on her website she sold two young female as pets. That is better than a competing breeder who is selling 8 year old retired females that have known no other home. If breeders don't sell dogs, they would end up with too many.

Jackie socializes her puppies. She breeds dogs with sound temperaments. Her WGSL dogs are structurally sound, no roach backs. None of that can be seen from a website. I also don't know how anyone can say she is a large breeder from her website. I followed it for over a year and did not see enormous numbers of dogs. What does the OP consider a large breeder?

Finally, her litters sell out, unlike other breeders I looked at who often have leftover puppies and have difficulty clearing out their stock.

Making sweeping assumptions from a website is not a good way to analyze a breeder and is not fair to people who spend their lives trying to better the breed. If you don't care for a breeder, move on but don't bash someone else along the way.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Websites are only as good as the designer who puts them up. And many aren't professional, so to judge a breeders dogs by their website leaves out a lot of good breeders. Many good breeders don't even have a website. Can you learn about a breeder from a website? Of course, hopefully they'll have what health checks they do, you can see some of their dogs. Testimonials? Well, who is going to put up any complaints they get? If you want to find a good breeder do your research, more than just looking at a website. If a breeder doesn't have the greatest website, call and talk to them. Ask questions, their knowledge will come through if you're talking to them. I don't know this breeder, obviously LuvShepherds does. But I used to design websites for dog breeders and would have to guide clients as to what they needed to put on it as they just assumed people would know things, which unless it's posted, they don't. So if you're looking for a black dog, go to sites and talk to the owners, go to events and look for dogs you like and talk to their owners about where they got their dogs, what they like or don't like about the dogs or the kennels. Don't rely on just websites and the internet to find a dog.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I had two dogs from Jackie. They were great. They have both now passed on  I also hung out a lot with a couple of younger relatives to my dogs and currently see another dog from her on a semi regular basis. 

She really cares about the dogs and I got a lot of nice messages when we recently lost Leyna at 12+ from Jackie.


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## prinesurf (Dec 5, 2016)

Thank you all again. I wanted this exact kind of feedback before I wasted my time and the breeders time too. 

I will definitely give her a call. Its unfortunate that in todays tech era, image is not important to some people or they are just not knowledgeable of what they are projecting. I have to honestly say, since I'm looking for a dog anywhere USA, I use the internet as my first line of research (and I sure I'm not alone), Her site ranked right up there with many BYB or large scale pet breeder sites I have seen. 
I know not to judge a book by its cover, (which is why I asked here first) like I said I didn't want to waste anyone's time. Yes her stud is quite handsome, glad to hear he has personality to match!
** Note: If anyone wants a website redone or started PM me, I'm looking to start up my business again. I'll do it PRO BONO** : )
thanks again


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Deb said:


> Websites are only as good as the designer who puts them up. And many aren't professional, so to judge a breeders dogs by their website leaves out a lot of good breeders. Many good breeders don't even have a website. Can you learn about a breeder from a website? Of course, hopefully they'll have what health checks they do, you can see some of their dogs. Testimonials? Well, who is going to put up any complaints they get? If you want to find a good breeder do your research, more than just looking at a website. If a breeder doesn't have the greatest website, call and talk to them. Ask questions, their knowledge will come through if you're talking to them. I don't know this breeder, obviously LuvShepherds does. But I used to design websites for dog breeders and would have to guide clients as to what they needed to put on it as they just assumed people would know things, which unless it's posted, they don't. So if you're looking for a black dog, go to sites and talk to the owners, go to events and look for dogs you like and talk to their owners about where they got their dogs, what they like or don't like about the dogs or the kennels. Don't rely on just websites and the internet to find a dog.


I agree. I loooked at a Facebook breeder group when I started researching. There were good breeders and backyard breeders all on the same group. I suggest anyone searching either going out to see the kennels themselves or spend time on the phone with a breeder. Have questions ready and be prepared to listen. Don't have an attitude or be critical or the breeder won't talk to you. They have limited time and most is spent with their dogs, not on the phone. You can learn a lot that way. I crossed off one popular breeder who didn't ask a single question or answer mine but was going to sell me a GSD puppy because she wanted to clear out one litter for the next.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Deb said:


> Websites are only as good as the designer who puts them up. And many aren't professional, so to judge a breeders dogs by their website leaves out a lot of good breeders. Many good breeders don't even have a website. Can you learn about a breeder from a website? Of course, hopefully they'll have what health checks they do, you can see some of their dogs. Testimonials? Well, who is going to put up any complaints they get? If you want to find a good breeder do your research, more than just looking at a website. If a breeder doesn't have the greatest website, call and talk to them. Ask questions, their knowledge will come through if you're talking to them. I don't know this breeder, obviously LuvShepherds does. But I used to design websites for dog breeders and would have to guide clients as to what they needed to put on it as they just assumed people would know things, which unless it's posted, they don't. So if you're looking for a black dog, go to sites and talk to the owners, go to events and look for dogs you like and talk to their owners about where they got their dogs, what they like or don't like about the dogs or the kennels. Don't rely on just websites and the internet to find a dog.


I am a web designer but have never had a website of my own because I get enough recommendations to keep me busy. I should imagine a good breeder puts up a site to have a presence on the web but doesn't really need one or doesn't need to bother at all.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

prinesurf said:


> Thank you all again. I wanted this exact kind of feedback before I wasted my time and the breeders time too.
> 
> I will definitely give her a call. Its unfortunate that in todays tech era, image is not important to some people or they are just not knowledgeable of what they are projecting. I have to honestly say, since I'm looking for a dog anywhere USA, I use the internet as my first line of research (and I sure I'm not alone), Her site ranked right up there with many BYB or large scale pet breeder sites I have seen.
> I know not to judge a book by its cover, (which is why I asked here first) like I said I didn't want to waste anyone's time. Yes her stud is quite handsome, glad to hear he has personality to match!
> ...


A suggestion before you contact breeders is to decide why you want a black dog. You said you have German Shepherd experience. Is that Working Line experience? You realize a solid black is a WL dog, and will have different needs and requirements than a West German or American Showline dog? Do you have activities or sports planned? As someone said earlier, color is or should be the least important factor in deciding on a dog or a litter or even a specific breeding. Instead, I suggest you make a list of what characteristics you are looking for beyond color, and then see what lines fit your needs. If you read this board a while, you will see that people who get their first WL are often surprised at the difference between that dog and the ones they had before or are used to. I got what was supposed to be a medium-high drive Working Line dog, and probably is compared to other WL dogs on the extreme end. But compared to what I had before, my younger dog is far drivier than any dog I have ever owned, and I have had many German Shepherds since I was a child.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Just because a dog is black doesn't necessarily mean it's a WL, fyi.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> Just because a dog is black doesn't necessarily mean it's a WL, fyi.


Yup. There are American show line dogs who are pure black.

Laslar-Candia's Black Bart, Karizma's Liberia von Loar, Karizma's Sudan Summer von loar Kaleef come to mind as a few examples.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> A suggestion before you contact breeders is to decide why you want a black dog. You said you have German Shepherd experience. Is that Working Line experience? You realize a solid black is a WL dog, and will have different needs and requirements than a West German or American Showline dog?


I don't think all black means working lines. My Kiska is all black and although she is a rescue and I don't know what her lines are I'm pretty sure it is not working lines. She is huge and she is a big goof.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I believe there are a couple females still available... 3 black females in the litter and based solely on a couple of videos, the blacks girls appear to be a bit less edgy than their sable sisters. (Only mentioning because an active pet home w/ some nosework may be an acceptable placement). 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ng-litter/676530-t17-working-dogs-litter.html


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't think all black means working lines. My Kiska is all black and although she is a rescue and I don't know what her lines are I'm pretty sure it is not working lines. She is huge and she is a big goof.


The breeder he is asking about produces Black WL dogs from Czech and Belgian kennels mixed in with dogs from German kennels. One of her males comes from Czech border patrol lines. Shouldn't the OP decide on a line before finding breeders? 

Your dog could be a mix of lines but her head looks WL. Do you have a side picture of her? She is very pretty.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> The breeder he is asking about produces Black WL dogs from Czech and Belgian kennels mixed in with dogs from German kennels. One of her males comes from Czech border patrol lines. Shouldn't the OP decide on a line before finding breeders?
> 
> Your dog could be a mix of lines but her head looks WL. Do you have a side picture of her? She is very pretty.



Thank you.  She was a stray that I got from the shelter. I don't really have any great side pictures. I got this one when she was blowing coat.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Thank you.  She was a stray that I got from the shelter. I don't really have any great side pictures. I got this one when she was blowing coat.


I am far from an expert but I've looked at a lot of pictures of black WL dogs. Your dog looks WL to me from those pictures you posted and your avatar. Why do you think she isn't?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> I am far from an expert but I've looked at a lot of pictures of black WL dogs. Your dog looks WL to me from those pictures you posted and your avatar. Why do you think she isn't?


There are a couple of reasons. She is missing the drive of my previous working line shepherds...She is a big goof. There is no intensity. 

She is a big girl. Which doesn't say much in itself as my boys who were working lines were large also, but working lines have gotten smaller since then. Her size doesn't really show in those other pictures.... but here she is next to my 65# lab mix. 










and the really big reason is, my vet took one look at her and said American BYB.


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## Jean4 (Feb 12, 2018)

We have owned 2 shepherds from Gruenfeld, 

(Text Deleted by ADMIN).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Jean4, we have a "no breeder-bashing" rule, negatives cannot be posted on the open board. If you build up your posting history, you can ask people to PM you if they are interested in learning about your experience with your dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons here... 

There ARE black show line GSDs. GERMAN show lines, not American.

And apparently, a DOMINANT black gene has found its way into the GSD genome. It has me going hmmm...where did this come from? I am also wary of it because reputable breeders don't breed JUST for colour. But JMO, and I haven't taken the time to check out these dogs more carefully. I may change my opinion when I do.

German Shepherd Dog Puppies for sale: Black show line (id: 263949)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you the cracker? Lol! Watch out for the pigeons lol! Yes there are black American show lines.


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## lcordova (Jun 4, 2006)

Hi OP, you should send a message to Wolfstraum...she is very kind, always helpful and perhaps can give you a pointer or too.
As far as Wildhaus...I think they have a waiting list of like 2-3 yrs...their dogs are awesome.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Are you the cracker? Lol! Watch out for the pigeons lol! Yes there are black American show lines.


[sigh] OF COURSE there are black American show lines! You totally misinterpreted what I said. It's the black German show lines that are quite rare, and that's why I worded my post the way I did, because I assume when I said 'showlines' people would automatically assume they were American if they were black.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons here...
> 
> There ARE black show line GSDs. GERMAN show lines, not American.
> 
> ...


That is really interesting. I had no idea there were black WGSLs! I wonder what their temperaments are like....??


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you the cracker? Lol! Watch out for the pigeons lol! Yes there are black American show lines.
> ...


. 

I did not misinterpret I just read what you said.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

sebrench said:


> Sunsilver said:
> 
> 
> > Going to throw a cat amongst the pigeons here...
> ...


I do not seen to many. Luna’s breeder just had a litter with I believe one black pup wgsl.


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## ploss (Jun 26, 2014)

We got our all black working line girl from Malinda Weber at Weberhaus. She has a lot of breeding stock with the recessive black so she frequently has black puppies. She isn't a big commercial breeder, but has several litters a year, so the wait isn't too bad, normally. She also keeps her website very up to date with extensive info about all of her dogs including titles and health testing. Here's the link if you want to check it out:

Weberhaus German Shepherds - Home

We have 2 dogs from her and have always been impressed with her!

Best of luck


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## Linderr6 (Jul 19, 2017)

I have personal experience with her that I am unable to detail here. I can PM you (or feel free to PM me) if you would like more info.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

prinesurf said:


> Any feedback on this Kennel (I read an old post from 2014) *vom Grunenfeld* in So. CA,
> it has 2 websites with sparse info. 4germanshepherds.com and blackgermanshep.com.
> The website also says "*Vom Schwarze-Hunde German Shepherds*"
> they appear to be the same breeder just one of the sites showcasing the black dogs?
> ...


Jackie is one of the pioneers of schutzhund in California. She has forgotten more about GSDs than some younger people today know about GSDs.

Some of the best breeders in the world have not so good sites and many do not even have a web site at all. Some good breeders now use Facebook instead of their own web site because it is much simpler to update with the latest content. Updating a web site can be cumbersome. I know because I had a software company.

The Internet does not represent the real world of dogs. I always encourage people to only use the Net as a rudimentary starting point but to attend IPO trials, club training days, agility events, dog shows, other AKC events, and to visit breeders in person including European ones if you are seriously interested in the real world of dogs.


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## KSB (May 29, 2016)

*All GSD's are working dogs*

There is nothong worse than an intelligent dog that is bored and has nothing to do. GSD's are no exception, whether they win beauty contests or not. The caveat about blacks being WL holds for ALL GSD's. I have had (owned, bred, and shown) numerous GSD's since 1968 and can tell you this from first-hand experience.


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