# SchH/IPO Puppy Prep



## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

I do not currently have a GSD, but am planning for one in the next 2-5 years. I am very interested in pursuing sport titles (or at least training for some 'casual' competition), specifically SchH/IPO (who can pass it up after learning about it?!).

I have looked at clubs that are within a feasible driving distance, and I know that I would be joining one eventually - there's definitely no substitute for in-person work with a trainer! But I am wondering if anyone can recommend any books or articles that discuss and/or focus on SchH/IPO preparation with puppies/young dogs. 

I am most interested in finding out more about tracking, as it seems harder to find good information on a sport foundation vs. a 'real world' working foundation in tracking. I have also heard that SchH/IPO tracking is different from other sport tracking - and I'm not sure how accurate of a statement that is. (I'd love to hear from anyone with experience in both.)

Obedience information (and abundant methods of training) seems to be easy to come by, but I also wouldn't want to encourage a heeling position or an about turn that would possibly have to be undone later. And I most _definitely_ do not want to make any hard-to-reverse training decisions with anything concerning the protection phase. (fullness of bite, appropriate drive encouragement, etc.)

I searched through the forum (pretty thoroughly, I thought - but not exhaustively) for threads dealing with similar subjects, but didn't find any. If there is one (or several) and someone could direct me to them - or maybe suggest better search terms - I would appreciate that as well!

Any advice or recommendations would be great!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Actually I think SchH/IPO tracking *is* sport tracking and very different than what is done in SAR, detection, police dogs that track, heck even Nosework. I think the same basic traits and drive mean a really good SchH tracker can be good at the other types too, but to me SchH tracking is not "real world" type tracking. Two of my uncles are LEOs with dog experience and they are always amazed watching my SchH dog footstep track, they think it's crazy that he makes a 3-step 90 degree corner with his nose in the track or that I even lay such a corner on my tracks, lol.

SchH/IPO tracking is different from AKC tracking, but I don't have experience with the latter so I'm not sure if it's more "real" or not.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Scoring in Schutzhund and AKC is different, that's pretty much it. One doesn't mind air scenting and the other one discourages it. A dog that tracks well in Schutzhund should successfully be able to do an AKC type track. Real world or SAR tracking generally involves a lot of air scenting (trying to pick up scent in the air rather than on the ground).

I really suggest you start training your pup at a club. The club that you want to continue training at. If you're worried about saving time/money by not going to a club until the dog is older and has some foundation stuff on it, its not worth it. You'd be amazed how important those first few months are and knowing what to do properly in order to have the correct foundation work for the more difficult stuff. The dogs I've seen that have been started in whatever sport the handler chose at a young age (I'm talking 8 weeks), are months or years ahead of where their same age counterparts are that weren't started correctly. Things like grips, dumbbells, retrieves...are not problem to those dogs who have had the correct foundation work as little puppies, but if you only start doing those more difficult exercises later in life, you're almost guaranteed to run into a few speedbumps.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Actually I think SchH/IPO tracking *is* sport tracking and very different than what is done in SAR, detection, police dogs that track, heck even Nosework. I think the same basic traits and drive mean a really good SchH tracker can be good at the other types too, but to me SchH tracking is not "real world" type tracking. Two of my uncles are LEOs with dog experience and they are always amazed watching my SchH dog footstep track, they think it's crazy that he makes a 3-step 90 degree corner with his nose in the track or that I even lay such a corner on my tracks, lol.
> 
> SchH/IPO tracking is different from AKC tracking, but I don't have experience with the latter so I'm not sure if it's more "real" or not.



Sorry, I must have been a little jumbled in wording when I asked about this in the original post. (I was sort of talking about 2 or 3 things all in a smushed paragraph.) SchH/IPO tracking is definitely what I would consider sport tracking (which is what I'd be interested in pursuing with my dog), along with titles through AKC, CKC, etc. 

I was mainly talking about how I was very surprised and slightly frustrated to find more information available online (from seemingly reputable sources) concerning 'real world' tracking; i.e. SAR and K9 tracking/nosework. As opposed to finding little useful information (beyond description of titles, and personal accounts of trialing) concerning any kind of 'sport tracking.' I have found a lot of great information about Nosework though, which sounds super fun! 

And then I was wondering about what I had heard/read about SchH/IPO tracking versus 'other' sport tracking - through AKC or something similar. I came across a number of sources that claimed that 'general' sport tracking was "drastically different" from SchH/IPO tracking. I don't know a great deal about tracking in general, and was wondering if these people were correct in their assessment, or if I was simply misunderstanding their meaning.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Scoring in Schutzhund and AKC is different, that's pretty much it. One doesn't mind air scenting and the other one discourages it. A dog that tracks well in Schutzhund should successfully be able to do an AKC type track. Real world or SAR tracking generally involves a lot of air scenting (trying to pick up scent in the air rather than on the ground).
> 
> I really suggest you start training your pup at a club. The club that you want to continue training at. If you're worried about saving time/money by not going to a club until the dog is older and has some foundation stuff on it, its not worth it. You'd be amazed how important those first few months are and knowing what to do properly in order to have the correct foundation work for the more difficult stuff. The dogs I've seen that have been started in whatever sport the handler chose at a young age (I'm talking 8 weeks), are months or years ahead of where their same age counterparts are that weren't started correctly. Things like grips, dumbbells, retrieves...are not problem to those dogs who have had the correct foundation work as little puppies, but if you only start doing those more difficult exercises later in life, you're almost guaranteed to run into a few speedbumps.


Thanks for the explanation of 'style' between AKC and SchH/IPO tracking, that's useful to know! (I had been entertaining the thought of training for AKC first, but SchH/IPO first sounds like the better option.)

And starting at a club definitely sounds like a good idea - I want to avoid speedbumps if possible! Do you know how standard/accepted it is to possibly join a club even before I get a puppy? (I'm thinking maybe a few months in advance) Just to get a good feel for the place (and get to know the other members), and hopefully learn some things through auditing and observing that I may too frazzled to pick up on when I have a crazy puppy to keep track of...


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## My5dogs (Aug 30, 2013)

We will be Doing schutzhund as well. Getting our pup next month. Your best bet is go to a few different clubs watch the classes ask questions so you get an idea. You don't have to be a member you can go as a visitor.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have a friend that does both SchH and is a many many year SAR/USAR/ADC handler. She feels that SchH tracking is an excellent foundation for the others. 

As far as doing SchH/IPO tracking and AKC/CKC I would start the former first since more precision is required.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you want to read, a couple good book recommendations are Tracking from the Beginning by Gary Patterson and Purely Positive training by Sheila Booth. Here is a website with some good articles on tracking: Schutzhund Village

What part of the state are you located?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lynn P on the board does both SchH and AKC tracking and nose works. She may be able to help you figure out which style is best for you. 

I am working my young USAR prospect in SchH as well. We have been doing lots if tracking. It is a great way to build work ethic, understanding of scent and reward. But has no practical application to USAR. There are many dogs that do both. 


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

My5dogs said:


> We will be Doing schutzhund as well. Getting our pup next month. Your best bet is go to a few different clubs watch the classes ask questions so you get an idea. You don't have to be a member you can go as a visitor.


A new puppy is exciting, congrats! (Be sure to give us lots of photo updates!) 

It's good to know about the option of going as a visitor, that's probably a good way to feel out my club options as well.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

lhczth said:


> I have a friend that does both SchH and is a many many year SAR/USAR/ADC handler. She feels that SchH tracking is an excellent foundation for the others.
> 
> As far as doing SchH/IPO tracking and AKC/CKC I would start the former first since more precision is required.


Definitely good to know that the SchH/IPO seems to be the better training to start with, thank you! And the precision is definitely something I'd want to develop properly from the beginning!


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> If you want to read, a couple good book recommendations are Tracking from the Beginning by Gary Patterson and Purely Positive training by Sheila Booth. Here is a website with some good articles on tracking: Schutzhund Village
> 
> What part of the state are you located?


Those books look good, thank you for the suggestions! And the Schutzhund Village articles are great, thank you (that's something I'll definitely be bookmarking).

I'm in West MI, in the greater Grand Rapids area - a drive of about an hour.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Lynn P on the board does both SchH and AKC tracking and nose works. She may be able to help you figure out which style is best for you.
> 
> I am working my young USAR prospect in SchH as well. We have been doing lots if tracking. It is a great way to build work ethic, understanding of scent and reward. But has no practical application to USAR. There are many dogs that do both.
> 
> ...


I hope that Lynn P finds this thread, I'd love to hear about their experiences! It's nice to know that there are dogs that successfully do both types of tracking. I've entertained the idea of volunteering for our local SAR group at some point, and knowing that a sport tracking background isn't detrimental to that idea is reassuring. 

And I definitely appreciate the building of understanding scent/reward! I've been doing casual 'for fun' nosework with my current dog, and have already seen a change in her behavior when she knows she gets to 'go to work' for her food - it's amazing that such a behavioral change could happen so quickly. (And it's super fun to see her when she's in odor)


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Since I have done both and tried cross-training this is my opinion on this. I would definitely start out with the discipline of the SchH/IPO tracking first...  build your tracking foundation that way. The first dog I did tracking with I started out in AKC tracking, and then about 3 years into his tracking career started to think about doing SchH/IPO tracking with him. It was very hard to get the discipline needed for SchH/IPO. My first SchH/IPO dog I did his foundation with the needed discipline and he does very well in AKC tracking. My young dog that has IPO tracking foundation with a very sensitive nose to scent I started nose work. After a couple of months of nose work training, he started air scenting a little on his IPO tracking sessions. I have decided not to continue with the nose work right now as I need him to keep his nose to the ground. If you are considering doing both, do the SchH/IPO tracking and the discipline needed first. Dante the SchH 3 dog that has tracked in both venues, knows the difference because of the different equipment used (harness for AKC/ fur saver for IPO), and I use two different commands “sooch” for IPO/ “find it” for AKC.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mesonoxian said:


> And starting at a club definitely sounds like a good idea - I want to avoid speedbumps if possible! Do you know how standard/accepted it is to possibly join a club even before I get a puppy? (I'm thinking maybe a few months in advance) Just to get a good feel for the place (and get to know the other members), and hopefully learn some things through auditing and observing that I may too frazzled to pick up on when I have a crazy puppy to keep track of...


Most clubs probably won't charge you unless you start training. So going to visit, making contacts, learning things, is probably going to be free of charge. You won't really be taking up the helpers or TD's time so I don't see many clubs charging you. This would be a great thing to do even before you decide on what breeder to get a puppy from. Start going, watch the dogs, see the ones you like, ask questions about those dogs. Many times people are either breeding or will tell you where they got their dog from so you can get something along those lines or from that actual breeder. It's probably the best way to find a dog you like that will work for you.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

Lynn_P said:


> Since I have done both and tried cross-training this is my opinion on this. I would definitely start out with the discipline of the SchH/IPO tracking first... build your tracking foundation that way. The first dog I did tracking with I started out in AKC tracking, and then about 3 years into his tracking career started to think about doing SchH/IPO tracking with him. It was very hard to get the discipline needed for SchH/IPO. My first SchH/IPO dog I did his foundation with the needed discipline and he does very well in AKC tracking. My young dog that has IPO tracking foundation with a very sensitive nose to scent I started nose work. After a couple of months of nose work training, he started air scenting a little on his IPO tracking sessions. I have decided not to continue with the nose work right now as I need him to keep his nose to the ground. If you are considering doing both, do the SchH/IPO tracking and the discipline needed first. Dante the SchH 3 dog that has tracked in both venues, knows the difference because of the different equipment used (harness for AKC/ fur saver for IPO), and I use two different commands “sooch” for IPO/ “find it” for AKC.


It definitely sounds like training for SchH/IPO first is the way to go. It's very helpful to hear the varying experiences you had with your dogs, thank you! I hadn't really thought about Nosework possibly interfering with tracking, so that's good insight as well. 

The separate equipment and different commands also seem like a superb idea, thank you again!


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Most clubs probably won't charge you unless you start training. So going to visit, making contacts, learning things, is probably going to be free of charge. You won't really be taking up the helpers or TD's time so I don't see many clubs charging you. This would be a great thing to do even before you decide on what breeder to get a puppy from. Start going, watch the dogs, see the ones you like, ask questions about those dogs. Many times people are either breeding or will tell you where they got their dog from so you can get something along those lines or from that actual breeder. It's probably the best way to find a dog you like that will work for you.


This sounds like good advice, for both learning and puppy search purposes. 
Thank you!


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