# Vet recommending Royal Canin or Science Diet



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I have 2 German Shepherds ages 4 and 8 who have been cycling through all the TOTW proteins for years. The 4 year old has some hair loss on his ears (no mites) and an irritation/infection on his hip. The 8 year old has had 2 urinary infections in 8 months.The Vet is always lecturing me on dog foods and is requesting I change off TOTW to one of these 2 brands. I will try a food change but not to these 2 brands. Any other thoughts? Thanks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Does he think the food is causing the issues? What is his rationale other than what the food reps tell him?

Personally, I like the Victor brand for kibble.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

lrodptl said:


> I have 2 German Shepherds ages 4 and 8 who have been cycling through all the TOTW proteins for years. The 4 year old has some hair loss on his ears (no mites) and an irritation/infection on his hip. The 8 year old has had 2 urinary infections in 8 months.The Vet is always lecturing me on dog foods and is requesting I change off TOTW to one of these 2 brands. I will try a food change but not to these 2 brands. Any other thoughts? Thanks.


Have the vet read the ingredients off the bag out loud. Than politely tell him to never lecture you on dog food again. Suggest that vet take some additional courses on pet nutrition and not to reply on the one course taught by Hills in vet school.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I wouldn't feed those either. The shelter I adopted Shelby from fed Science Diet. I bought some, until I could transition her to something else. She wouldn't eat it, so I decided I could use it as training treats for my hound dog. He eats ANYTHING. But, not even the hound would eat Science Diet. lol!

I feed TOTW Pacific Stream, which my 2 have done fine on. There are a lot of good quality foods you could try. If your vet suspects a food allergy, what about one of the limited ingredient foods?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just my humble opinion but I think no matter what other kibble you change to, there may be a periodic push from your vet to switch to the kibble that they sell. 

I can't comment on kibble as I've been raw feeding now for about 3yrs. My vet isn't thrilled with my choice.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

kr16 said:


> Have the vet read the ingredients off the bag out loud. Than politely tell him to never lecture you on dog food again. Suggest that vet take some additional courses on pet nutrition and not to reply on the one course taught by Hills in vet school.


There are much better and more diplomatic ways to let a vet know that ones choice of food is based on ones own research. Also if the op is anywhere near my neck of the woods, this area is inundated with clinics owned under the largest vet franchise. Most of the ER hospitals immediately around here are franchise owned.

One needs to work with what they have until they choose to leave and has another put in place to go to.

Op, if you wish more specific info about my vets clinic, please feel free to pm me. There has been some good, there has been some not great but to their credit, they do listen to me and do back off concerning certain subjects. The last thing you want to do is alleinate them.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

kr16 said:


> Have the vet read the ingredients off the bag out loud. Than politely tell him to never lecture you on dog food again. Suggest that vet take some additional courses on pet nutrition and not to reply on the one course taught by Hills in vet school.


She gave me a big lecture on "reading the ingredient list" and said it wasn't controlled and can't be verified.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Is the clinic recommending a RX food for some issue? E.g., hydrolyzed protein for food allergies, GI food for chronic diarrhea, kidney food because of UTIs, etc? If so, we need that info in order to help you figure out options. Some of the RX foods are just marketing bunk. Others are well studied and helpful for serious conditions. We need to know what your vet is actually recommending, to unwind what else is out there that would possibly accomplish the same goals.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Does he think the food is causing the issues? What is his rationale other than what the food reps tell him?
> 
> Personally, I like the Victor brand for kibble.


She is suspicious that it might be a food allergy causing both the dry skin and irritations on one and the urinary tract infections on the other. I don't mind changing the foods,but not to crap. She told me to call Tufts Veterinary School.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I disagree that vets uses those foods because they get kickbacks or are ignorant. I have a dog on Hills right now for a short period of time after very bad illness. The ingredients are terrible. I pointed that out to the vet, who said, I am giving you this because it works. It does, very well. After a week of looking at all kinds of loose and smelly stools and vomit, I was willing to try anything. Once we are sure the symptoms are gone, I am going to transition back to a Fromm formula that will do the same thing but less dramatically. 

There are different ways to treat skin problems without going to prescription diets. The one I am using now is full of grains that are notorious for causing itching and dry skin. Have you tried eliminating certain ingredients? Medicated baths?


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I just bought a bag of TOTW Pacific Stream (the only TOTW with no chicken or eggs) and a bag of Limited Ingredient lamb California Natural. I'll start there. Thanks for the responses.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I should add, my dog was on TOTW for years and got a treatable illness last year which was possibly food related. We are not sure, though. I switched to Fromm which my other dog was on and have been very happy with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> She is suspicious that it might be a food allergy causing both the dry skin and irritations on one and the urinary tract infections on the other. I don't mind changing the foods,but not to crap. She told me to call Tufts Veterinary School.


So she's wanting you to use specific prescription formulations for those issues? Each dog getting their own bag? 

If so, then try it. 

Has there been any other testing for cause of the uti? Culture? Ultrasound?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If it's an RX formula for the UTI, then it's worth asking what it does that's helpful, and how food is contributing to the UTIs. 

With recurrent UTIs, unless it's already been cultured and sent out to test for antibiotic resistance, I would want to rule out antibiotic resistant bacteria! What can easily happen is that the UTI appears to be cured, but some of the bacteria survives. The survivors hide out, start reproducing and then reappear as a stronger and more dangerous infection. 

With dryness issues, I would add some fish oil to the dog's meals, no matter what you feed. It's a low risk, easy fix for dry skin -- but it takes several weeks to see an improvement. You can toss in a human-grade fish oil supplement (Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc.) into the kibble, or buy pour-in/squirt-in liquid supplements for pets.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dry skin 

500mg fish oil per 20 lb body weight
500mg primrose oil per 20 lb body weight

Try the Dermoscent Essential 6 topical. It's been a life saver this year.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> So she's wanting you to use specific prescription formulations for those issues? Each dog getting their own bag?
> 
> If so, then try it.
> 
> Has there been any other testing for cause of the uti? Culture? Ultrasound?


The dog has had an advanced ultrasound,a urine culture and a urethra cell culture. For now it has resolved,but 2 in 10 months. For now I'm gonna eliminate all chicken and eggs,add fish oil and a topical and go from there. Thanks.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Magwart said:


> If it's an RX formula for the UTI, then it's worth asking what it does that's helpful, and how food is contributing to the UTIs.
> 
> With recurrent UTIs, unless it's already been cultured and sent out to test for antibiotic resistance, I would want to rule out antibiotic resistant bacteria! *What can easily happen is that the UTI appears to be cured, but some of the bacteria survives.* The survivors hide out, start reproducing and then reappear as a stronger and more dangerous infection.
> 
> With dryness issues, I would add some fish oil to the dog's meals, no matter what you feed. It's a low risk, easy fix for dry skin -- but it takes several weeks to see an improvement. You can toss in a human-grade fish oil supplement (Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc.) into the kibble, or buy pour-in/squirt-in liquid supplements for pets.


Exactly what she said.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

I fed both my previous girls on Hills as recommended by the vet for digestive and skin issues. It wasn't a permanent thing, just to stabilise the issues whilst I found a food that they were more tolerant of. In fact it was my vet that suggested that I change my first girl to 'Chappie'. Hugely reluctant and I have to say it wouldn't be my first choice now but I have to say her digestive issues cleared up completely. So I now think you should feed your dog the best food you can afford but sometimes that doesn't make it the best food for your dog.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

The vet guessed our former GSD, Jake to be two when we rescued him. 
He was emaciated and had some stomach issues, diarrhea and very little appetite.

The vet recommended Royal Canin GSD (not prescription). Jake was on that food for about 10 years and he lived a very healthy life. No stomach issues and no skin issues. 
When we got him he looked like a cayote but over time grew into a beautiful looking dog. 
I’m sure the food had something to do with Jake’s good health. 

I’ve only heard negative comments ab the food on this forum and I absolutely trust the opinion of a couple members who have posted here. 
So maybe the recipe has changed the past 4 years.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Findlay said:


> The vet guessed our former GSD, Jake to be two when we rescued him.
> He was emaciated and had some stomach issues, diarrhea and very little appetite.
> 
> The vet recommended Royal Canin GSD (not prescription). Jake was on that food for about 10 years and he lived a very healthy life. No stomach issues and no skin issues.
> ...


A lot has been learned about dog food recently. Even though the prescription ingredients are not my first choice, if a dog has a condition or illness and the food clears it up, it works. I hesitate to tell anyone to defy their vet’s instructions unless they are certain the vet does not have their dogs health as their most important consideration.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The disclosures about the Mars petfood division (which owns RC, Nutro, and Pedigree, among others) on the Truth About Petfood are jaw-dropping. Read the full deposition transcripts over there to get a picture of this manufacturer's ingredient sourcing, as told by an employee under oath in a legal proceeding. It's possible there's higher standards for the RX food, but it's also possible that there's not. It's hard to know.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I used a mixture of RCGSD and TOTW Pacific for 10 years. My dog did just fine on the mix and in fact ate it heartily all those years.


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## abbiemyfriend (Nov 12, 2016)

I have been feeding RC for years with great results, right now my rescue is on the so urinary for crystals, everything is cleared up, no diarrhea or stomach upsets ever with this food and great soft hair...


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I would never put my dogs on the same food,month after month,year after year,so I'm doing the TOTW Pacific Stream followed by California Natural for now.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Vet just reiterated the opinion on Science Diet and Royal Canin after I told her I'd switched to California Natural til I figure out what's next. I mentioned raw and she said they have fired clients for continuing with raw while the dog was obviously not handling it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds like your vet is close minded and a control freak. I would love on to one that worked with me in a partnership for the well being of my animals.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Or you could hire a nutrionist like Monica Segel to create a diet for your dogs.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

So the vet has made the point that she wants the dogs on Royal Canin for 8 weeks,says that's the food she has seen make the biggest difference in all kinds of ailments in her 20 years of practicing. I had just transitioned them to 4Health,so I'm going to do it for 8 weeks. Interestingly,I went back and forth with her about grain free diets and a week later there were anti-grain free posters all over her practice. I believe in grain-free for humans but my dogs do get a little rice and pasta thrown in here and there.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lrodptl said:


> So the vet has made the point that she wants the dogs on Royal Canin for 8 weeks,says that's the food she has seen make the biggest difference in all kinds of ailments in her 20 years of practicing. I had just transitioned them to 4Health,so I'm going to do it for 8 weeks. Interestingly,I went back and forth with her about grain free diets and a week later there were anti-grain free posters all over her practice. I believe in grain-free for humans but my dogs do get a little rice and pasta thrown in here and there.


Because a vet is treating ailments or symptoms of things, I bet the food was only 1 part of any treatment plan the vet proscribed for anything, and even in the odd chance it was, it could have been a simple upgrade from ol'roy or something. Ask her where she studied nutrition. The most honest vets I've dealt with always admit it was about a 1 week course based completely on dog food company research, so they're dependent on that, just like drug company research for other things.


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## Arathorn II (Oct 7, 2017)

I always thought Royal Canin was a decent brand.



Jax08 said:


> Does he think the food is causing the issues? What is his rationale other than what the food reps tell him?
> 
> Personally, I like the Victor brand for kibble.


That is the brand we use. Ranger is almost 14 months old 

How much longer should we keep him on 

https://www.chewy.com/victor-active...VVrjACh2_lgojEAYYAyABEgLvQ_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I like the Victor brand for kibble.


I've heard nothing but good things about Victor. I've completely switched over to Victor Hi Pro Plus from what the breeders were feeding and noticed a huge change in her poops. Have you considered Victor?


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

She's not claiming anything except her 20 years of experience with possible food allergies and success with Royal Canin. August had ear hair falling off and a hotspot on his hip. No mites or infections. Fritz had chronic bladder/urethra inflammation. Both were fed all the TOTW proteins for 4 years. They are both off TOTW and right now things seem to be improving.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Just to follow up on my OP. 3 months later and the dogs have been on 4Health for 2 months and all the issues are gone. Sad sidenote. August's ear itchiness resulted in a left ear contusion that has resulted in a partially floppy ear.


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## Kairo's Dad (Jul 4, 2018)

Mei said:


> I've heard nothing but good things about Victor. I've completely switched over to Victor Hi Pro Plus from what the breeders were feeding and noticed a huge change in her poops. Have you considered Victor?


 Curious Mei, could you elaborate on the change you noticed? Thanks!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If you are considering Royal Canin hydrolyzed protein from the vet (for a food allergy), you might as well look at Diamond Care at half the price. Diamond makes TOTW, 4Health, Costco's Kirkland and countless other foods. They bought a company that makes hydroylzed protein food -- and they now sell it for about $40/bag. If other limited ingredient food (like Wellness Simple, etc.) doesn't help, hydrolyzed protein foods sometimes do.


They have a new line that's targeted at RX food buyers -- it's available from Chewy and other online food sites. Some of the formulas don't require an RX (sensitive skin, sensitive stomach), other do (renal formula):
https://diamondcarepetfood.com/


This is at least a lower cost option for those who find the RX foods to be terribly expensive (I've known vets to charge $80+ for 20 pound bags, but prices vary widely).


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Kairo's Dad said:


> Mei said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard nothing but good things about Victor. I've completely switched over to Victor Hi Pro Plus from what the breeders were feeding and noticed a huge change in her poops. Have you considered Victor?
> ...


Was six months ago, but they went to solid clump poops instead of melted soft serve chocolate icecream. Best way I can describe it lol. I'm half way through this current bag and might change the flavor. Keeping it Victor brand though. 

Another pretty good one is 4health brand. Theres these little 80 cent soft foods that I put half of it in her kibble both feeding times lately. Also a little chicken stock to soften her kibble because she's still teething. She's got a few more needing to come out. I also do one raw egg mixed in her bowl for dinner. 

She loves sitting patiently while I make her meals. Until I pretend to eat it, then she gets excited lol.

Food advisor is a great site.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

lrodptl said:


> Just to follow up on my OP. 3 months later and the dogs have been on 4Health for 2 months and all the issues are gone. Sad sidenote. August's ear itchiness resulted in a left ear contusion that has resulted in a partially floppy ear.


That's OK. Floppy ears rock!


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> That's OK. Floppy ears rock!


 @BigOzzy2018 Heck ya they do! Ozzy rocks one! I'm kinda disappointed Mei's went up and stayed up. No floppy ear stage for her. Only thing they did was curl back at the tips for like a week.


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