# PTSD Service Dog that growls?



## GSDolch

I am really hoping I can get some insight on this situation. Our pagan community hosts lots of events, one of the more popular ones are the craft fairs were we have vendors come in and sell things. Well, there is a women there who vends, she is in an automatic wheelchair and says she has PTSD.

A friend of mine brought three children she was babysitting to the event and she was talking with this woman. Now, these children were doing nothing wrong, just standing there. One of them took a step to stand on the other side of my friend, not quickly, or jumping or anything like that. She did have to get a little closer to the wheelchair to get to the other side, but not right by it.

Well, the lady in the wheelchair had a basket between her feet and there was a dog..looked like a chihuahua mix type dog. It growled at the kids, and the women told the children that this was her service dog and that it growled at people to let her know that they were standing to close since she has PTSD.

Now, I'll keep my personal thoughts about this woman to myself. I just would like to know if this is accepted or common? If it is not is there anything with the ADA that shows it is not? My concern is for the group that hosts these events getting into trouble if something happens and this dog bites someone.


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## Hineni7

From my experience, PTSD and close proximity would be well known to her before the dog growled!!! Panic sets in in unexpected ways, hard, and a therapy dog would be there to calm you - not set you off on am attack because someone was to close.... Hmmmm


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## Jax08

yeah...um...no...


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## Pax8

Ummm. No. I'll have to look up the guidelines again, but I believe it is stated in ADA guidelines that a service dog cannot show ANY aggressive behavior toward any person in public. A little dog could probably respond to an episode, but from what I have seen, it has always been large dogs that do space control. 

If I start having a panic attack, mine walks circles around me to back other people up, then responds to me. Or if someone walks up behind me, he hangs back and stands across my backside so they can't reach out and touch me from behind because it can set me off. But he can never growl, jump, snap or do anything anyone might deem aggressive.


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## GSDolch

Ok, thanks! I was pretty sure that was the case but I wanted to make sure myself before I went to the board with it. I'm trying to google the guidlines but I keep coming up with third party articles.


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## Pax8

Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business

Here is a Q&A from the ADA website that seems to classify growling at other people as an "out of control" behavior and grounds for the dog to be removed.


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## ILGHAUS

PSD or Mobility or DAD, no SD should ever growl as part of its work. Doesn't matter if the person can not see, walk or pick up dropped items -- any dog that growls in such a situation has no business being out in the community. 

" ... it growled at people to let her know that they were standing to close since she has PTSD."

No, not accepted nor allowed by Federal Law as shown by the document by the Dept. of Justice, Civil Rights Division that was referenced to by the previous post. (Bolding is mine.)

10. Q: What if a service animal *barks or growls* at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?

A: You may exclude *any animal, including a service animal*, from your facility when that animal's *behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.* For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.

Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal *the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises*.

_Reproduction of this document is encouraged_ so I would suggest making a copy for anyone in charge of these activities who needs to sit in on any decision making on this topic. And since the phone # is included to the ADA Information Line anyone who may still be unsure has direct access to speaking with the correct people at the Dept. of Justice.


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## Thewretched

Service dogs are only allowed to protect its owner when the owner is incapacitated, say, having a seizure, or passed out, the dog will recognize that and not allow anyone near the owner. Just to stop thieves. 

A service dog is also allowed to "block" people from getting close, if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws.

So if someone were to approach you, you give a "stand back I have a service dog", if they continue threateningly, the dog is allowed a bark and hold.

I honestly don't believe small dogs have a place in the world of SDs. I understand they can, but it's my personal opinion there is a different breed that can suit the needs better, generally GSDs are used for PTSD due to their ability to brace the owner, and deal with a person with PTSD's outbursts of rage.

The dog shouldn't have growled at a child, the person is probably full of it.

EDIT: this is what I gathered from my local PD department.


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## ILGHAUS

Thewretched said:


> Service dogs are only allowed to protect its owner when the owner is incapacitated, say, having a seizure, or passed out, the dog will recognize that and not allow anyone near the owner. Just to stop thieves.
> 
> A service dog is also allowed to "block" people from getting close, if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws.
> 
> So if someone were to approach you, you give a "stand back I have a service dog", if they continue threateningly, the dog is allowed a bark and hold.
> 
> I honestly don't believe small dogs have a place in the world of SDs. I understand they can, but it's my personal opinion there is a different breed that can suit the needs better, generally GSDs are used for PTSD due to their ability to brace the owner, and deal with a person with PTSD's outbursts of rage.
> 
> The dog shouldn't have growled at a child, the person is probably full of it.
> 
> EDIT: this is what I gathered from my local PD department.




If you know someone with your local PD, you may want to suggest that they may want to request and have their officers attend a workshop. Their training officer may want to at least get copies of documents from the Dept. of Justice on Public Access. 

Someone from the PD can also call the ADA Informational Line 
800-514-0301 (voice) or 800-514-0383 (TTY)

A SD must allow emergency personnel to attend to the handler if "the owner is incapacitated". 

Something that should be considered when discussing a dog's thought and then decision making process is that a dog doesn't think and reason like a human. The dog doesn't stop to consider:
*) Is this person removing my handler's wallet to take money from it or are they checking for a medical history and/or a contact card?
*) Is this person checking my owner's wrist to steal their watch or looking for a Medical Alert bracelet (or maybe even checking their pause)?
*) Is this person removing parts of my handler's clothing to aid them in carrying out a medical procedure or ...

_"A service dog is also allowed to "block" people from getting close, if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws."_

A SD is allowed to "block" which is not taking an active stance such as showing teeth or even nudging someone away but only to passively act as a living wall to create some space.

As to: _"if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws."_ ...... 
No, No, and a big No. That would legally make a SD a weapon. 

_"I honestly don't believe small dogs have a place in the world of SDs. I understand they can, but it's my personal opinion there is a different breed that can suit the needs better, generally GSDs are used for PTSD due to their ability to brace the owner, and deal with a person with PTSD's outbursts of rage."_

Small dogs have a huge place in the world of Assistance Dogs. They make wonderful Hearing Dogs, DADs and can perform many types of tasks including those needed by dogs trained to respond to other medical alerts.

Honestly, many of us that know GSDs will not recommend a breed such as a GSD as a choice for someone not experienced with them.


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## Hineni7

ILGHAUS said:


> Thewretched said:
> 
> 
> 
> Service dogs are only allowed to protect its owner when the owner is incapacitated, say, having a seizure, or passed out, the dog will recognize that and not allow anyone near the owner. Just to stop thieves.
> 
> A service dog is also allowed to "block" people from getting close, if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws.
> 
> So if someone were to approach you, you give a "stand back I have a service dog", if they continue threateningly, the dog is allowed a bark and hold.
> 
> I honestly don't believe small dogs have a place in the world of SDs. I understand they can, but it's my personal opinion there is a different breed that can suit the needs better, generally GSDs are used for PTSD due to their ability to brace the owner, and deal with a person with PTSD's outbursts of rage.
> 
> The dog shouldn't have growled at a child, the person is probably full of it.
> 
> EDIT: this is what I gathered from my local PD department.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you know someone with your local PD, you may want to suggest that they may want to request and have their officers attend a workshop. Their training officer may want to at least get copies of documents from the Dept. of Justice on Public Access.
> 
> Someone from the PD can also call the ADA Informational Line
> 800-514-0301 (voice) or 800-514-0383 (TTY)
> 
> A SD must allow emergency personnel to attend to the handler if " the owner is incapacitated".
> 
> Something that should be considered when discussing a dog's thought and then decision making process is that a dog doesn't think and reason like a human. The dog doesn't stop to consider:
> *) Is this person removing my handler's wallet to take money from it or are they checking for a medical history and/or a contact card?
> *) Is this person checking my owner's wrist to steal their watch or looking for a Medical Alert bracelet (or maybe even checking their pause)?
> *) Is this person removing parts of my handler's clothing to aid them in carrying out a medical procedure or ...
> 
> "A service dog is also allowed to "block" people from getting close, if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws."
> 
> A SD is allowed to "block" which is not taking an active stance such as showing teeth or even nudging someone away but only to passively act as a living wall to create some space.
> 
> As to: "if the owner gives a warning, similar to gun rules and "stand your ground" laws." ......
> No, No, and a big No. That would legally make a SD a weapon.
> 
> "I honestly don't believe small dogs have a place in the world of SDs. I understand they can, but it's my personal opinion there is a different breed that can suit the needs better, generally GSDs are used for PTSD due to their ability to brace the owner, and deal with a person with PTSD's outbursts of rage."
> 
> Small dogs have a huge place in the world of Assistance Dogs. They make wonderful Hearing Dogs, DADs and can perform many types of tasks including those needed by dogs trained to respond to other medical alerts.
> 
> Honestly, many of us that know GSDs will not recommend a breed such as a GSD as a choice for someone not experienced with them.
Click to expand...

Why is that? A well trained SD GSD should be well socialized and thoroughly capable of any tasks needed... Just curious


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## ILGHAUS

> Why is that? A well trained SD GSD should be well socialized and thoroughly capable of any tasks needed... Just curious


Not sure if you are questioning my statement about not recommending a GSD for someone not experienced with a GSD.

First let my clarify: if you go through a well established and reputable Program for a dog; that is, a dog that has been evaluated and fully trained than if they have the ability to match a dog to someone who can handle a GSD then the odds go up for a good team.

But for many new handlers, they may never even have owned a pet dog in their life. We have a breed that is naturally protective and needs a firm but of course fair handler. Look how many posts we have on questions and handling issues from new to the breed owners on this site alone. 

I am trying very hard to be careful how I answer this as it can be a very touchy subject. But here goes ... 
There are so many organizations that are sprouting up all over the U.S. now that are pulling dogs from shelters or dogs through various other sources and taking them through quick courses. Some of these groups have little background on the breed(s) they are using, maybe not enough experience in picking out a Candidate correctly and then matching the right dog with the right handler. 

You have handler's going into this working team who do not always "know" what is involved in proper exercise. They may be use to a breed that a brisk walk around the block or a half-hour of chase a ball is considered a lot of exercise but our breed on the whole considers that as just a warm up. 

When speaking on SDs and especially those for psych tasks the temperament and thresholds of the dog becomes even more critical. Say you have a handler that walks down the street in fear of large crowds or "sees" the enemy around just about every corner then you need to stop and realize how this can carry to the dog. Many individuals in our breed will be tossed into a state of high alert as they pick up the handler's emotions of fear, distrust and need to be prepared for attack. This is where you would need a rock solid dog who doesn't go into a prepare for being attacked mode but rather one that picks up the concerns of the handler, takes a look and sniff around and then pretty much goes on with a "Hey, I've got this, there is no danger here and let's go on about our business" attitude.


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## ILGHAUS

And to clarify: I am in the process of finding the right GSD male pup for myself and would not dream of using a different breed. Many of us who have owned GSDs for years really believe that a GSD as a pet is not for everyone, so I am very careful who I even offer a recommendation of the breed for that purpose. Then when it comes to a Candidate I really close in and first look to the person who will be handling the dog. 

I have been involved with GSDs for years but for a working dog for myself I am relying on the experience and knowledge of others who I trust to guide me to the right pup.

Ask me how I feel about the breed and I can rave on their qualities until most people just want to escape from me.


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## DJEtzel

Absolutely not. The space tasks for a dog helping with something like PTSD are very common... and done in many other ways than... growling, which I doubt was trained, and sounds more like a guarding behavior...


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## GSDolch

Thank you all so much for the information. I sent everything to the president of the board so now I leave it to them to decide what to do.


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## Lin

TJ has covered everything, of course  

I also would never dream of another breed for my SD, and that has made getting my next SD very difficult since I am no longer in a position to owner train. But I also agree that the breed isn't right for everyone, when you have people with no dog experience there are much "easier" breeds that can be better for a SD. 

And small dogs can make great SD, there are so many different types of service dogs and tasks needed. Small dogs are ideal for hearing alert dogs for instance, and some people prefer small dogs just as some people prefer large dogs. So say you have a deaf individual who prefers small dogs, would you try to force a labrador on them when a jack russel could do the job? Just as I wouldn't want anyone to take away my right to have a GSD as a service dog, I'm not going to try and claim a small dog can't do a job just because they're small, many small breeds were bred to be working dogs and ARE working dogs. Some service dog tasks a small dog can easily do include: alerting to sounds such as someone at the front door, or the phone ringing. getting help if the owner is incapacitated or having a seizure. retrieving items for an owner, fetching medication or a phone in an emergency, alerting an owner when its time to take medication so its not missed, and oh so many more. If a dog is individually trained in tasks to mitigate their handlers disability, obedience, and public access its a service dog. But as already covered, there are guidelines and rules SDs have to follow and growling or barking is NOT acceptable and the status as a service dog is at that point irrelevant they may be asked to leave.


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## GSDolch

Blahhhh. At the time I didn't say anything because I wanted to be 100% sure before I did, but now I wish I had said something at the time. Something would have been done if I had.

Ah well, the correct people know about it now and the information has been given so we'll just have to wait and see what happens at the next events.


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## s14roller

Any thoughts that it may not really be a service dog but a personal dog that she uses the "service dog" term so she can just bring it everywhere?


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## DJEtzel

s14roller said:


> Any thoughts that it may not really be a service dog but a personal dog that she uses the "service dog" term so she can just bring it everywhere?


Happens SO often. I have had two people tell me they were going to do that with their dogs this week alone. /headdesk


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## Lin

s14roller said:


> Any thoughts that it may not really be a service dog but a personal dog that she uses the "service dog" term so she can just bring it everywhere?


Yes, I think its either that or an "unintentional" faker, where the person is ignorant of the laws and doesn't understand them and thinks their dog is actually a service dog. I don't believe at all that this IS a service dog, by the growling. If this was a trained service dog, its one that never should have made it into advanced training because it obviously doesn't have the temperament required.


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