# Helpers and petting



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Does your helper pet and stroke your dog while "on the sleeve?" 
What are your thoughts on why? Is it effective?

When is this a good idea or not? Is it dependent on the dog?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Does your helper pet and stroke your dog while "on the sleeve?"
> What are your thoughts on why? Is it effective?
> 
> When is this a good idea or not? Is it dependent on the dog?


 
The helpers I work my dogs on do pet the dogs. I being a helper do not. 

They usually do it to calm a dog. If the dog is hectic or frantic sometimes they do it to help the dog relax and just release in the bite. I'm sure there is more to it than that but that's my understanding. I am a threat, a bad guy. I don't want to pet a dog on the bite. I want it to continue to take me as a bad guy. So I try some other things short of physical contact to calm the dogs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

All the ones I've worked with pet the dog while on the sleeve. I think it is a good idea - gets the dog used to distractions around the face and dog stays on the sleeve.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think so? I've seen them touch the dog but it's not like a pet/stroke, more to get a response from the dog (like he clamps down tighter or does a little jerk/torque on the sleeve in response).


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Most helpers do...for various reasons....sometimes to calm a dog, sometimes it makes the dog bite harder, sometimes to help create a calm, full bite.....it just depends.
All training techniques are as different as the helper using them.....ask your helper "why" they are doing something specific......


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Does your helper pet and stroke your dog while "on the sleeve?"
> What are your thoughts on why? Is it effective?
> 
> When is this a good idea or not? Is it dependent on the dog?


Effective when it is the course of action that I want to take. 

It depends on the dog. The dogs that aren't as confident and we are trying to work in prey I will stroke or otherwise interact with pleasantly. The dogs that are aversive to contact with the helper I will stroke to desensitize them to this. The dogs that work readily in prey and are indifferent to touch I don't. The dogs that are not as confident and we are trying to work with more aggression I do not touch (in an affectionate way) or otherwise confuse them... I remain playing the role of a threat. The very confident dogs that I want to work in very high aggression levels I do not pet as I am their mortal enemy at that moment and mortal enemies don't pet each other.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Part of training. Done as not due to dog and grip – it is part of the training process in the protection work.

You do not know what kind of helper that you will encounter. Strong, weak, awkward, does not present sleeves correctly, roll sleeves back over spine (incorrectly) when dog blocks, helpers that pull dog onto them, yells, does not yell, etc….


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Even so, Sue, at NO time would the helper in a trial pet the dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't think a helper has ever tried to pet Jäger now that I'm thinking about it. Our current helper did say the other day "I hope one day I can pet Jäger" lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What I hate are the helpers that grab the lower jaw of the dog when they are on the sleeve. What is the purpose of that?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> What I hate are the helpers that grab the lower jaw of the dog when they are on the sleeve. What is the purpose of that?


I don't do that but I believe its to discourage chewing & check how hard they are gripping? Many probably don't know why they are doing it.. just doing it b/c everyone else did lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, I think it is the latter.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Yes, I think it is the latter.


Just like smelling a wine cork... they have no idea why they are smelling it lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

So they can gag?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The theory behind "pressure" on the under jaw while on the sleeve is to put a slight defensive mind set, and make the dog grip harder. *The helper must be careful, this can make some "weaker" dogs freak out.* (just a simple answer to the question.)

Although there is no contact in the sport (hands on dogs)...we are talking about *training*......creating better grips, maintaining calmness, building drives...are all parts of training. No different than people using toys, bait, reward etc...in OB training.....can't use it on the field either...yet it is done in training.

All these things are training methods....everyone uses different techniques, finding what works for each dog and benefits it.....is what is most important.....IMO.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lhczth said:


> What I hate are the helpers that grab the lower jaw of the dog when they are on the sleeve. What is the purpose of that?


Good grief, yes! There are so many things that I just don't "get" why are done and this is one.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> Even so, Sue, at NO time would the helper in a trial pet the dog.


No, but I was listing examples of other things to do as part of training. Touching the dog is part of that training. Training is doing things differently. Not always do you have competent helpers to work on.


I know a competitor a few years ago that would have her helper do all sorts of things that normally would not happen in a trial. But, since she competed at a National level and not on helpers that she knew/worked on, they did all sorts of different training scenarios... Touching the dog, falling down on the ground, bumping within the sleeve, etc. 

I do not know of helper's petting, but touching the dogs, either with stick or hand is normal.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

gagsd said:


> Good grief, yes! There are so many things that I just don't "get" why are done and this is one.


Thats kinda a relief to hear-I did the sport for years and never understood a good portion of it


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Another aspect - why are people doing table training? That is never done in a competition, but it is a tool for training to get to competition. 

Training and competing are two different things, but one can lead into the other. Rote, pattern training leads to rote work.

As with the lower jaw - depends on what the helper was doing. Grabbing or holding, carrying or checking? No one helper does it the same. 

Robin has hit the nail on the head with both her posts.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, Sue, agree with showing them different scenarios so if something happens in a trial the dog knows how to respond plus, doing different things, IMO, keeps the dogs fresher. You will never trial in a hay mow, but we train there. Never trial in a horse stall or the woods, but we train there. My helpers fall on the ground, pressures the dogs in other ways. That is just good training.

The petting and jaw grabbing are often done just out of habbit and for no practical purpose. They do it on one dog so it should be done on all dogs or they saw it done by other trainers so it must be a good idea for all dogs. Helpers may differ, but many just do things because it is what they do or because others do it without considering the dog they are working.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah I'm still not really getting it...not saying it's wrong but WHY? For training....ok training what? I see people that do lots of stuff in training that I don't think is appropriate or I won't allow with my dog.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I agree Lies..... wrong or right is not my question so much as WHY.

I remember one of the first dogs I ever worked was very quick to bite. Green dog, green handler and green helper. Helper reached under to cradle the jaw and very nearly lost fingers. That dog was THRILLED to be offered something to bite.
Another dog I work now just does not want a helper during protection handling him, much less trying to pet him/stroke him on the head while biting.

If the point is to calm the grip, and all it does is cause the dog to fight more.... then why would we need to desensitize that? (even if we could)
And at least for the dogs I have experience with, adding defense is not the reason. That can be done with a look.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

There are lots of reasons to do it (cup under the jaw bit). Depends on the dog.
For some dogs, its to add a little pressure and make them uncomfortable to try and get them to counter.
For other dogs, its to actually calm the grip.
Yet for other dogs, we've done it to discourage automatic out due to the new rule changes (transition phase).
Point is: you gotta do what makes the dog offer the behavior you want. If it's more fight, more calmness, etc it does not matter because the same action can have different results depending ON THE DOG!

There are things that may look different to handler and helper. Example: you see lots of helpers (Vit Glisnik comes to mind) that will almost pet the dogs' feet with the stick. Looks like they are gently brushing them with the stick! A handler might say - what's the point? desensitize them to it? Make friends with them? No I don't want my helper being friendly with the dog or letting him know he's safe etc. but in reality lots of dogs don't like having their paws touched and doing so even gently makes them uncomfortable enough to counter, fight, grip harder, whatever the individual dog does - and if that's what you are trying to achieve in that training session then that's good training!

The point is, helpers often try different things on different dogs and see what works. Ask the helper about why he did xyz, and he / she should give you a reason that you may or may not agree with - but you should not get a blank stare back 

But yea, I agree in not doing something without the why. The why can be simple or complex, but there must be a reason for any behavior by the helper (because there is always a reason for a behavior by the dog!)


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It is also, when done correctly and at the correct time, to check the grip. Not only the fullness, but the intensity and chewiness. A grip might look full, but the pressure is "like a butterfly on my arm" .

Again, it is another tool that can be used, when needed. 

Plus, the helper should explain why and discuss with the handler. Not just do it. And there should be a reason for it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think the rule of thumb people can use is, if the helper is doing this with more than one dog, ( or all the dogs in the club), and doing it all the time, you can start to suspect that he might not know what he is doing, or is simply going thru the motions. Each dog is different and there are other ways to calm a dog, or disturb them, through the helper work without touching him with your hands. Last dog I did that with was a very nervy female malinois. I did not do it to calm her on the grip , I did it after the rest of the work achieved that and only briefly, mostly because I was so impressed by the transformation of that dog and wanted to see if she would allow it, when before that point, she would have completely freaked out. I don't recall doing it before that dog, that's how infrequently I have done it.

I see people do this now where the hand is on the top of the head and under the chin. Some seem like they are actually holding the dog's mouth on the sleeve. Again, proper helper work will achieve the result where the dog will hold, trying to do it with "obedience" is just dumb. I see people doing this with lots of dogs, not really in a specific fashion and that right there tells me all I need to know. . Not something I believe in , especially as I have said, the people doing it are, with every dog they work. I've had people ask me to do that stuff and I don't feel any difference in the grip. Don't really believe in using it to pressure the dogs so, that could be part of the reason...but I doubt it. The most effective helpers apply and release pressure or disturb the dogs more through mental pressure than any kind of physical contact. Not many people have the ability to do it, so, these are the things they use...too often....if you ask me and it will not take the place of the later. Touching the dog can be just as "rote", when it is done over and over in training. 




> It is also, when done correctly and at the correct time, to check the grip. Not only the fullness, but the intensity and chewiness. A grip might look full, but the pressure is "like a butterfly on my arm" .


I have never had to feel the grip with my other hand. If a helper has to do that, they should not be working dogs. Maybe you meant something else Sue? That makes no sense to me.
Yes, you should always ask a helper WHY. Seems like many helpers just get stuck doing the same stuff whether it produces a result or not. They just do it, to do it.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Anne - demo was done to show the handler who insisted that the grip was full and hard all the time.

The dog shifted the grip post bite and pre-hand. And the grip was not hard at all. And this was a problem when dog 1st started coming to train, post another training.

No, should not be all the time.

But, that gets back to the other question I posted - what is your (all inclusive to posters) definition of training?


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