# Flip Finish vs Traditional finish



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

I'm at a crossroad right now debating on the flip vs. traditional finish. 

Before I started to train at home I had asked my TD on how to do the flip and he had suggested I do the traditional finish (where the dog goes around you into the basic position) because he feels my dog will be large and its easier to teach. So thats what we've been working on. My dog is 11months old just over 62" and 73lbs as a point of reference. I feel he's pretty agile and there hasn't been anythign thats stonewalled us obediance yet to be able to teach the flip.

I really like how the flip looks, but I don't want to go against my TD especially since this is my first schutzhund dog. 

Do you feel the flip apears sexier and bumps up the scores when trialing?

What would you do in my spot?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Both are scored the same so no issues there. Point loss occurs when either is not performed correctly, so keep an eye on the dog and determine which type of finish will result in less mistakes being made (points loss). 
For example, in the flip finish the dog that knows how to move his rear end sideways will always have an advantage over a dog that only turns directions by using his front end and the handler typically walks around the dog when doing the about turn, in this case the go around finish will be preferable as it still allows a sloppy dog/training to look good. So key items to consider when choosing the finish are,
1. Dog's rear end awareness (your job as a trainer)
2. Is dog fast or slow (size does not matter)
3. Which style will result is less errors


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I personally don't like the flip finish. IMO it's rarely done correctly. When done correctly the dog flips into the basic position without any other adjustments. Watch a lot of the dogs that do it. They flip the majority of the way around then studder step into the basic position. I prefer the traditional finish because again IMO it helps keep the dog in basic position with it's rearend tucked behind the handler. I hope this is making sense. I'm exhausted right now.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

No, Both answers are great, and help. 

I think since I'm new, and I can't really tell where I'm going haha, I'll keep the traditional finish to keep it easier on both of us while i'm learning. With what you said Packen, I don't really know what to look for to be able to consistantly be able to correct at home with out the TD there.
And to Follow up on you Cobra I agree, it seems like I do see a lot of hopping and correcting from both the Handler and the dog.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

As long as they end up in the right place, does it matter?  a good traditional finish looks nice, They seem to go to the right side and all of a sudden they're they are in perfect position on your left. Smooth and fast, and one seemingly smooth move. Done.

A good flip? just as nice, I can appreciate both for what they are. I wouldn't say either is easier, I've done both or one more prone to mistakes if you don't train it completely. 

You do have to watch that your dog is coming to correct position on a flip and not stopping early and then inching in. I don't care if there is a little correction at the end, no dog gets it perfect every time and if they have the awareness to scoot in, great. ON a traditional, many dogs stop short as well and are not in perfect position, or they don't stop early, they keep coming around and end up in a wrapped position before they start. 

Neither way is immune to poor starting position, it's up to the trainer to make it complete. Quicker dogs are quick no matter what way they go, slow dogs are slow.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I actually like the way the traditional German style around the back looks better. However, my dog forged hard to right and we had a hard time with left turns. So I spent a lot of time teaching him to move his rear and taught him the flip as a training exercise to move his rear and not forge on the left turns. We ended up sticking with the flip because of this. Does it look as pretty? No but he learned to move his rear end.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

The go around works well and brings the dog into position. If your dog gets distracted when behind you, a flip would be better. It keeps eye contact between you and the dog. So your training is always geard in the direction you need to go for you and your dog, not what others do with their dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As long as it looks correct, I like either. I've done Rally in the past so my dogs all learn both. For Schutzhund I typically use the traditional finish (same for left turns). Even at a high level I think it's rare to see a nice flip finish that doesn't have a dog adjusting and/or some subtle handler help. I know I have a tendency to do it myself when doing the flip finish.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't train in Schutzhund but have had a police master trainer tell me that for real world obedience, he wants a flip finish. 

They are not as much concerned about the level of precision though. He just said he never wanted the lead going around his back. I guess in competition they are not using a lead.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I wonder why not teach both? I like to have at least 2 commands from the front position as it is. Helps the dog from anticipating the next command. 

Teach both, using some other command for the one you like least. Then see how he does - you have plenty of time to figure out which is better for you and your dog so why not? Plus you'll learn how to teach both, an added tool to your kit


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I happen to like the flip, BUT it is the one most likely to be done incorrectly by the dog and can take the longest to teach. I would go with the other where the dog goes behind the handler. In the IPO3 there are 5 finishes so 5 chances to lose points. For your first dog I would attempt to decrease those chances.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It takes like three sessions to train and maybe a few more than that to finish.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

Right,

He's nailing the traditional finish right now... so for now I'll just keep it up and then later think about adding the flip.

I like your point Ihczth on the number of errors and from what I've seen posted here it does like there is more of a chance for error in the flip. And I'll probably be thinking about what I'm doing more the first few times trialing. Its also good to know there isn't a bias from a juding standpoint for one method over the other.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My first 4 dogs did the around finish. I have done the flip with my last 4. I like the flash so the flip I teach takes awhile to get accuracy. I accept the chance for point loss because when done right it looks great.  I am also teach the flip to my pup.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I love the flip finish and the FCI about turn, trained both my dogs that way. Here is a good example of the finished product at the highest levels.

Jozef Adamu??in & Chris spod Lazov FCI 2013 - YouTube


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