# Is Fighting Drive Necessary ?



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

This was translated from part of an article written in 1978. The author was discussing Breed Surveys in Germany. Who the author is might surprise some people but it is interesting that these comments were made over 30 years ago. Some people who do SchH now have no idea there was ever points awarded for fight drive . 


> Quote: Soundness of character in the dogs must be fundamental to us. It deals with the feeling of particular strength that the dog has and in the flight instinct of a sound dog, a flight instinct that is either only slightly developed or controlled by the brain i.e. kept in check. These dogs are not intimidated by the optical or acoustical stimuli of every day living. Their behavior toward their environment is friendly and trustful but they can display intrepidness e.g. when the assailant is in earnest. They demonstrate the ability to distinguish between apparent and actual danger. They are also aggressive when a clear threat presents itself. We call this desired sharpness as we wish to use the idea of sharpness conditionally.
> These are the principles upon which the practical work of the SV is based. We have preserved over the AZG the inclusion of points for fighting drive in tests. The reason being that in judging it often turns out that the total points in SchH trials give hardly any conclusions as to the most important portion of the temperament test: fighting drive. This because a larger portion of the training exercises, ( e.g. searching the blinds, find and bark, the transport), present no great demands on fighting drive. A dog lacking in fighting drive often works here faultlessly. On the other hand, a hard, driving dog often looses points thru re-bites etc, and in the end result stands no better and often worse than a dog with little fighting drive and built up obedience. This was the reason for the inclusion of points for fighting drive. It should be a rule that a dog with otherwise similar scores in the overall rating yet lacking in fighting drive should place where he belongs, namely after the dog with fighting drive and the dog who sometimes performs without the same obedience.
> This is because even the not quite sound dog is easier to train in obedience than the harder dog who is often very difficult to handle.


Here is the question and then I will tell you who the author is. Do we need dogs with fight drive nowadays? If we do, why? What purpose does it serve?
If we don't, why? 
Do you think by removing the points for fighting drive we have brought about the demise of working temperament in the GSD? 
Lastly, if this was the opinion of the leadership of the SV in 1978, why do you think they removed the point system for fighting drive and does anyone know what the excuse....er....reason that was given? I forgot.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Maybe I should ask a different question. Since the dogs with strong fight are also the dogs that are harder to handle, do they fit in with today's society? 
Would YOU want to own a dog with the traits talked about above and if you did, why would you? What would your reason be in looking for a dog like that?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think it is also knowing what fight drive, when you see it, and it not being something else.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Excellent article, and great discussion topic, Anne.

I would say I agree with the author, both about the importance of fighting drive as well as the fact that while much of the SchH routine does not test this, in the areas where the dog can show whether he has this or not, the dog who does ought to be rewarded over dogs who are equally, even slightly moreso, "correct" in their performance of the exercises but who do not exhibit fight.



> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> Do we need dogs with fight drive nowadays? If we do, why? What purpose does it serve?


Yes, we do need dogs with fight drive. It is necessary for any real world application of protection. And the temperament traits that help compose "fight drive" and go hand in hand with it.. hardness, self confidence, a degree of dominance, assertiveness, intrepidness... are important personality traits to maintain across the board, not just in protection but it other areas where the dog may be called into service. These things also do not present a handicap in the family home of a truly qualified GSD owner, and can be beneficial there as well. 

I think the term lends itself to misinterpretation, just as "aggression" does, and that contributes to people balking at it and not seeing it's value. People tend to think a dog with high fight drive is a canine axe murderer, and that is not the case. These dogs have such inner strength and confidence that they are far less likely to react inappropriately than the majority of the canine population, and if they do react they typically have a very sound reason for doing so, and will follow through and not back down.

Sadly, it is no longer a requirement for a dog to do well in SchH, and in many cases handicaps a dog on the SchH field when, as the author alludes to, these dogs can be harder to control and often don't exhibit the same precision in their execution of certain exercises (namely the secondary control work), and in modern SchH it seems more often than not the dog who lacks fight but performs perfect obedience in protection is awarded more points than the dog who takes protection seriously and shows strong fight, but while controlled isn't as precise and pretty in his obedience in protection. 

SchH is not supposed to be the end goal. The idea wasn't to allow a means to evaluate breeding stock for SchH. The idea was to utilize SchH as a means to evaluate breeding stock as whether or not they are correct GSDs and suitable for working applications beyond the SchH field. The removal of fight drive from the equation is IMO the single, most significant contributor to the weakening of the value of SchH as a breed test for working dogs.




> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> Do you think by removing the points for fighting drive we have brought about the demise of working temperament in the GSD?


I don't think it brought about the demise of working temperament. Contributed to it perhaps, but I don't think it was solely responsible.

I view it more as a symptom of a greater disease than as the direct cause. Just look at the TSB rating system that replaced the point system and how it is abused with many dogs who should be rated sufficient at best, in some cases insufficient, recieving pronounced over and over and over again. With the way things have gone down hill, I've little faith that had the point sytem remained it would have retained any more integrity than the TSB rating system has. Dogs who barely hang on by one tooth, tucking their tails and shutting their eyes during drives, would be getting 10s just as they get pronounced now. I don't think the point system would have remained immune to this either, so we'd just have meaningless 9s and 10s instead of the meaningless pronounceds we have.

This is one of the many things I really like about the new AWDF titles. They have brought back the point system. But only time will tell if it retains integrity, with judges actually being able to tell the difference between what should be an 8 or a 9 or a 10 and awarding them accordingly instead of passing out 10s to everyone as many seem to do with pronounced TSB ratings.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I think it is also knowing what fight drive, when you see it, and it not being something else.


The article I just posted in the other thread about prey work relates to this topic and also to your comment. 
I forgot about how long these arguments have been going on. Certainly interesting, because now we can see the results.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Would anyone like to guess who the author is?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm going to take a wild stab,,,fred lanting?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not a bad guess I suppose but the Fred is not German and never was in the leadership group of the SV.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just because it would be head poundingly ironic (not to mention hypocritical) I'll guess one of the Martins.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Hermann


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I was thinking along the lines of Fritz Beihler....anyway I think that Chris pretty much nailed it. The purpose of Sch was to evaluate breeding stock for SERVICE. Problem is the GS is not bred for service and service is not looking to the GS for dogs in general. This is so sad. Though Sch has been watered down to almost nothing but play....the results of nothing being a requisite to breed, like in America, is many many top GS breeders that know nothing about training a dog much less reading and evaluating their dog's strengths and weaknesses. Back in the day if a dog got 9 or 8 points in the courage test, NOBODY would breed to that dog. Today almost none of the showline dogs have the "intensity" to get a full 10 points. How far we have adjusted our expectations downward. As my good friend John often says, most modern day Sch decoys only know how to play a good "tug of war" game with the dogs. The art of reading dogs and subsequently building and molding the traits that made this breed so successful in the past has been lost but to a few. That's why the service communityhas moved away from this breed.JMO


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I figured someone like Beihler and a number of others would be too obvious as we'd expect it from them.. so it had to be someone who would make us go "huh?!?"

So as predicted:


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

From Vandal: "Lastly, if this was the opinion of the leadership of the SV in 1978, why do you think they removed the point system for fighting drive and does anyone know what the excuse....er....reason that was given? I forgot."

So what is the answer. My guess is that not enough dogs were making the cut, so they just changed the rules.

So, how can this fight drive be assessed? I am guessing people are now using their own methods.

The GSD is still #1 in Minneapolis/St. Paul K9. Malis too varied in temperament and tough with the subzeros for highs in January and February

So much doom and gloom


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I think that Chris' post was excellent. 
What really bothers me though are breeders who pay lipservice to a certain kind of dog and then follow a different direction in their own breeding program. Seems to happen quite a bit.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:So as predicted:


Don't hurt yourself there Chris, that was only part of the article and he was just explaining why the SV did it that way. The rest of the article "seems" to be about how the breed survey rules at the time should stay the same in that the dog must out. It is a really hard article to understand fully because the translation was frankly lousy or else I just don't have the patience to read it slow enough.
He was the National Breed Warden at the time.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:So what is the answer.


I don't know...I said I forgot what reason they gave at the time but according to the other article, it changed to the pronounced fighting drive from 10 points and I vaguely remember that when it happened. Then later on, they changed it to the "ability to withstand stress" which is not the same as fight drive and reduced the SchH test to where it no longer was promoting the temperament traits listed in the FCI standard. You know the part that says a GSD must possess courage, hardness and fighting drive......doesn't say the dog must withstand stress....not yet anyway...that's probably next.
I guess that is the way all these groups who want things their way operate.....gradually, over time and they get away with it because the rest of the people allow it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

But Art, in many cases these breeders really "think" they are breeding what their lipservices spouts. They don't really know what a good strong breeding German Shepherd should possess. The trajedy of today is not that breeder don't know, its that they don't know they don't know so they have no inclination to learn or change what they do or are creating.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Cost/Benefit. There is a benefit to fight drive but also a cost. The cost is it is more difficult to find trainers, handlers and owners that can manage it. Jurgen Ritzi used to be in charge of procuring service dogs for the federal German customs agency and he said in the 70s if you needed 10 service dogs, you just needed to evaluate 50 GSDs and you got your 10. Nowadays, he said you need to look at 500. And he was talking about working lines, not show lines.
Nevertheless, the RCMP in Canada are still almost exclusively GSD. They tried the Mals and Dutchies but came back to GSDs because they said they needed a dog that can think even more than a dog that can bite.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

..to continue, nowadays some agencies prefer to use tazers instead of police dogs to control suspects. Have a police dog bite a suspect and it might be videoed by a camera phone and in youtube in 15 minutes and a public relations headache. What they still can not replace is the dog's tracking and scent detection ability. And in real world tracking, where it may literally be over miles of rough terrain and swamps, you really need a dog that can think (and unending drive to track).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ocean, I train and procure dogs for police depts. Ask any experienced police dog trainer why is it difficult to find good German Shepherds for police work today and see what they tell you. It goes back to capability of dogs to possess all the components necessary which incluse speed, nerve, agility, courage, fight drive, etc. Its hard to find a good shepherd today that possess all these components(and even the working lines are starting to be too sporty) in a GS. And this goes back to BREEDING!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Clif,

You have a point. I will add that people seem to breed dogs that conform to their methods of training. Training, right now, is dominated by (nearly) entirely motivational methods in obedience and all prey in protection, so that is what people are breeding. All they really care about is a ton of prey. They don't really need a dog that can withstand a tremendous amount of stress from the handler nor from a helper. Additionally, you can take that crazy-prey drive and make it look like real aggression in the protection.
So as far as many breeders are concerned, if they produce dogs with enough prey, they don't need anything else.


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## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

We have so many people breeding with the aim of a vicious GSD here it is not funny. I have seen people post adds wanting to trade a GSD that doesn't bark and bite for one that does. It makes me sick. And they get BIG bucks for the mean ones. 4 or 5 times what the good breeders get! 

They just do not get it. A calm, well mannered, well bred, GSD will bark and bite if it needs to protect. Come to think of it, those people do not deserve a dog. 

*sigh*


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@CK,

I am not sure we are all on the same page? A vicious dog is no more correct than is a Lab with pointy-ears. This may help you:
http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Art, Yepperoo!
Let me give an illustration how Sch changes have altered the breed in terms of fight drive and ultimately the performance of the breed. 
Back in the day,60's and early70's, during the protection routine the fight drive of the dog was scored from 1 to 10. So a dog that was say a prey monster that gripped fully but went along for the ride with this grip would score a 7 or an 8 when the critique was given, though he might get a 95 score. Meanwhile a dog that showed pronounced fight drive in stopping and dominating the decoy might get a 93 because of slow out but 10 points in fight drive. Let me tell you that in those day NOBODY would breed to the 95 dog with only an 8 or 7 in fight drive. Actually most people really needed to know you had a 10 to impress them for breeding. Soooo, the 7 and 8 dogs didn't get many or any breedings at all. This was show dogs also,(there were show dog with 10 in fight drive then, now there are almost none), because there was not a split at this time. So by virtue of this small mechanism of scoring fight drive, the soft, weak, sensitive, dogs didn't get hardly any breeding. Now some of you with these kind of dogs are probably saying "I don't think that is right". But analyze this from a breeding point of view. The most perfect system of breeding to ensure strength, intelligence, stamina, courage, etc. is in the dog pack in its natural state. Man is not superior to nature as we don't have enough experience for one. In the natural state every male in the pack does not get to breed. The weak, sickly, non dominant, shy, even sensitive dogs do not get to spread their genes in the genepool. Croup, pretty, color, angulation, my baby, I want another like the one I own, none of these reasons are valid reasons for reproduction. They aren't in mother nature and they shouldn't be in a purebred dog that was made to work. Afterall, these reasons are valid for people, but Folks dogs aren't people....sorry!
So, this use of these superior dominant dogs with strong fight drive kept the breed as the number one working dog in the world. We even had better service dogs like the seeing eye dogs of those era's, because the nerve strength was better. But as we humanized the breed to breed for those things I have listed above the breed has lost in statue in every area but pet and show. This is what happens when you remove safeguards, that were originally in the breed survey test(sch degree), for a reason.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Is there any support or momentum toward re-implementing this 10 point system? Or if schH can't fit the bill for balanced breeding are people going to other venues or making "their own " tests for breeding suitability?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The AWDF has created their own titles, patterned after SchH with a few differences, such as bringing back the attack out of the blind in the 1 level. These titles utilize the 1-10 point system for fighting drive.

While these aren't recognized as titles by other organizations and aren't interchangeable with the corresponding SchH titles (meaning they have to be pursued via a separate path of AWD 1, 2, 3.. can't go from SchH3 to AWD3), there does seem to be a good deal of support for it. At the USA trial where Raven and I did her AWD1 last spring, there were 7 or 8 other dogs entered for the AWD titles instead of SchH titles.


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## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

I am not in favor of breeding mean ones.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Neither is anyone else. Fight drive does not make a mean dog.

Unfortunately, that attitude, born of ignorance, is very common and this gross misunderstanding of what fight drive is, or what protection work is all about, has significantly contributed to the decline of this breed.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildNeither is anyone else. Fight drive does not make a mean dog.
> 
> Unfortunately, that attitude, born of ignorance, is very common and this gross misunderstanding of what fight drive is, or what protection work is all about, has significantly contributed to the decline of this breed.


I agree. Enzo, who is known for his fight drive (and noted in both breed surveys) is excellent with children. He is NOT a mean or reactive dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though these attitudes are out there and especially at AKC shows, they don't bother me as long as the people are owners of German Shepherds. But when you have BREEDERS that have this degree of misinformation or ignorance it is easy to see how the breed went from the most noble working dog at one time to a golden retriever in shepherd clothes in many instances today. Oh Well!!


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Though these attitudes are out there and especially at AKC shows, they don't bother me as long as the people are owners of German Shepherds. But when you have BREEDERS that have this degree of misinformation or ignorance it is easy to see how the breed went from the most noble working dog at one time to a golden retriever in shepherd clothes in many instances today. Oh Well!!



I think everyone needs to know the facts... owners and breeders alike. As long as there are owners looking for a certain type of dog, there will be some breeder trying to answer that desire.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

When I read this..... 


> Quote:These dogs are not intimidated by the optical or acoustical stimuli of every day living. Their behavior toward their environment is friendly and trustful but they can display intrepidness e.g. when the assailant is in earnest. They demonstrate the ability to distinguish between apparent and actual danger. They are also aggressive when a clear threat presents itself. We call this desired sharpness as we wish to use the idea of sharpness conditionally.


I really wonder what the problem is. 
To me, that passage describes what I felt a German Shepherd should be, even before I got "into" shepherds. 
It describes the dogs my grandparents had when I was young.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I think everyone needs to know the facts... owners and breeders alike. As long as there are owners looking for a certain type of dog, there will be some breeder trying to answer that desire.


Krylos, excellent point. 

The sad thing is that many of these dogs don't even have the drive to work found in most Goldens.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

The breed misses your grandparents too, but this thread makes me hopeful their experience will be realized more often than not once more. 

To answer the TOPIC question: you betcha!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The mean ones are weak nerved dogs all too often. Unsure dogs bereft of the character the breed is meant to possess. I have seen mean ones come from people so far from breeding for proper working temperament it is unbelievable. 

Believe me, I know where to go for "mean ones".


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

So then is this why DDR dog owners are always told that they shouldn't do schH or these lines aren't suited for it? Because they have real fight drive? I can understand the maturity thing as they mature slow and sport people want titles fast but they have real fight drive as describe so is that why they aren't used nowa days?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with DDR dog doing sport. They should do Sch or SDA, because the training involves brings out the development and thus the beauty of the dog. Will a DDR dog be a podium dog...probably not, will the development probably be slower because most clubs are prey oriented in training...probably so. But there is no reason a DDR cannot do anything that any other dog does.JMO


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: VandalMaybe I should ask a different question. Since the dogs with strong fight are also the dogs that are harder to handle, do they fit in with today's society?


no, they fit in with the military and law enforcement


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 The purpose of Sch was to evaluate breeding stock for SERVICE.


which is a joke now-a-days...all these people titleing weak dogs isnt doing the real working dog world any good. i feel that the only training sport program that truely tests a dog would be KNPV. other than that it would be dog trainers training specifically for a purpose i.e. police, military etc etc. but then again, weak dogs are washed out of police and military programs. some schH trainers and other not too serious sport trainers will try to work through a dogs issues to build up there name with more titled dogs under there bealts and then continue breeding these POS dogs for a nice chunk of change only to keep working through more issues.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:There is nothing wrong with DDR dog doing sport. They should do Sch or SDA, because the training involves brings out the development and thus the beauty of the dog. Will a DDR dog be a podium dog...probably not, will the development probably be slower because most clubs are prey oriented in training...probably so. But there is no reason a DDR cannot do anything that any other dog does.JMO


Ok this makes more sense to me, thanks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs with strong fight drive are not necessarily hard to handle. Many dogs with strong fight drive and good nerves are pets in people's homes, very easy to manage, and unless they are exposed to activites that kick the fight drive in are regular great dogs. Comments like "fight drive equals hard to handle" is true of dogs on individual basis and usually contingent on the ability of the owner. I trained daily with over 250 military dogs for 3 years. MOST were not difficult to handle.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

lcht2, all I can say is GENERALIZATIONS. I don't think you can go as far as saying that KNPV is the only training sport program that truely tests a dog. It's all in how and what type of dog you train. If you train a weaker dog to view it as a game and never test the dog then yes it will go through it's paces as a game. On the other hand, you can train a tough cop/PP type dog to have the control to do SCH. The person that knows what he's looking at can tell the difference in the dogs at a trial right away. Case in point: Mike Deihl's Kutter dog. He's a Sch 3 dog. Kutter's scored in the 290's. He's also Mike's K9 street dog with real bites. Also, I've posted this link before, it's on of my favorites, so take a look. Do you think this Sch titled dog will bite for real? By the way he is also now a retired K9 (so he has bitten for real










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjFQ0UbH224


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattoxlcht2, all I can say is GENERALIZATIONS. I don't think you can go as far as saying that KNPV is the only training sport program that truely tests a dog. It's all in how and what type of dog you train. If you train a weaker dog to view it as a game and never test the dog then yes it will go through it's paces as a game. On the other hand, you can train a tough cop/PP type dog to have the control to do SCH. The person that knows what he's looking at can tell the difference in the dogs at a trial right away. Case in point: Mike Deihl's Kutter dog. He's a Sch 3 dog. Kutter's scored in the 290's. He's also Mike's K9 street dog with real bites. Also, I've posted this link before, it's on of my favorites, so take a look. Do you think this Sch titled dog will bite for real? By the way he is also now a retired K9 (so he has bitten for real
> 
> 
> 
> ...


can i ask you what kind of experience you have with dogs? have you ever trained a dog in a sport or a type of service? are you baseing your knowledge on what you have read or experience?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox If you train a weaker dog to view it as a game and never test the dog then yes it will go through it's paces as a game. On the other hand, you can train a tough cop/PP type dog to have the control to do SCH. The person that knows what he's looking at can tell the difference in the dogs at a trial right away.


What does a person observe that shows the difference? Are there certain behaviors to look for?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattoxlcht2, all I can say is GENERALIZATIONS. I don't think you can go as far as saying that KNPV is the only training sport program that truely tests a dog. It's all in how and what type of dog you train. If you train a weaker dog to view it as a game and never test the dog then yes it will go through it's paces as a game. On the other hand, you can train a tough cop/PP type dog to have the control to do SCH. The person that knows what he's looking at can tell the difference in the dogs at a trial right away.


Agree 100%.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 The purpose of Sch was to evaluate breeding stock for SERVICE.
> ...


You have to be kidding, I know of many dogs who have washed out of Schutzhund for poor temperament only to be snapped up by police departments and on the street bare weeks later.

KNPV is as sporty as Schutzhund and is no greater test of aggression or fight than Schutzhund. It is now the norm in both sports to train primarily if not exclusively in prey and that is indeed the easiest road to success in the sport, but not for the dogs.

It is up to the individual to seek out and train a dog in the proper drives for the work. Then go out and trial it and pass, whatever the venue, those watching can tell when a dog is real and when it is just trained for sport.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Ruthie
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: R. Mattox If you train a weaker dog to view it as a game and never test the dog then yes it will go through it's paces as a game. On the other hand, you can train a tough cop/PP type dog to have the control to do SCH. The person that knows what he's looking at can tell the difference in the dogs at a trial right away.
> ...


It isn't so much specific behaviors, but a certain attitude and seriousness they bring to the work.

You can probably already spot them, you just don't know what you are seeing. You watch a trial and will say "wow that dog was fast", or "that one was correct", or "that one bit well", but when you see a dog work and just find yourself going "*HOLEY CRAP!!!* that's an awesome dog" you probably just saw one working the way they all should, even if you can't put your finger on exactly what was different yet.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Tim Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


yea apparently my most recent post did not post..yes KNPV is a SPORT but look at the foundations. no, a KNPV dog with a PH1 is not ready to hit the streets when it touches the ground. get me to believe that a SchH 1 dog could compete with a PH1 dog giveing that there temperments and drives are equal, the foundation in SchH is not comparable to the foundation KNPV gives. explain to me how SchH is a greater test? is there gun fire on a long bite? no. are the dogs being HIT not love tapped? no. SchH dogs run blinds, KNPV dogs search for "suspects." explain to me how prey is not easy for the dog? are you meaning in terms of control or comfort? were those dogs that were washed out of SchH successful in the work or were they evaluated and then sent onto another guy thinking he can do better?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Tim Wild
> You can probably already spot them, you just don't know what you are seeing.


Exactly!







I have been told which dogs in my club have fight drive, and I can see a diference in the dogs. I think I can tell that Bison is starting to show it some...but am still having trouble telling the difference between prey drive and fight drive.

Many have mentioned on the post that they can tell the difference, and was hoping for some pointers. So you are saying it is more of an overall "attitude" then any specific behaviors.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Amy I'm kinda in the same spot....I can't always tell. Last time my dog was worked in protection the helper said he was starting to bring the fight. I am such a klutz all my focus is on the line handling and not confusing my dog! Afterward the helper has to de-brief it for me, lol. I only get to see the butt-end of my dog.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> yea apparently my most recent post did not post..yes KNPV is a SPORT but look at the foundations. no, a KNPV dog with a PH1 is not ready to hit the streets when it touches the ground. get me to believe that a SchH 1 dog could compete with a PH1 dog giveing that there temperments and drives are equal, the foundation in SchH is not comparable to the foundation KNPV gives. explain to me how SchH is a greater test? is there gun fire on a long bite? no. are the dogs being HIT not love tapped? no. SchH dogs run blinds, KNPV dogs search for "suspects." explain to me how prey is not easy for the dog? are you meaning in terms of control or comfort? were those dogs that were washed out of SchH successful in the work or were they evaluated and then sent onto another guy thinking he can do better?


No one said SchH was a greater test. Only disagreed with your generalization that it is a "joke". None of the "sports" are going to produce a street ready dog. They aren't designed to. They are designed to test whether a dog has the proper basic drives and temperament for it, but aren't guaranteed to do that either. Though when approached as a test, instead of a sport, they can do a pretty good job. It all depends on how it's done. A dog can be trained in any of them using prey, or using fight and aggression. Which is which comes down to the people involved and what they value and the sort of dogs they choose to work, not the exercises in the activity they utilize.

The constant arguments about "my" sport really tests dogs and "yours" doesn't are ridiculous. Or a bite suit really tests dogs and a sleeve doesn't, or vice versa. Ring, SchH, KNPV, latest and greatest protection sport of the week... all can be trained different ways, and different sorts of dogs and temperaments can pass, and even do well. 

It comes down to the individual dog, his temperament, and his training. Not what activity he participates in, or what titles he has after his name.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeAmy I'm kinda in the same spot....I can't always tell. Last time my dog was worked in protection the helper said he was starting to bring the fight. I am such a klutz all my focus is on the line handling and not confusing my dog! Afterward the helper has to de-brief it for me, lol. I only get to see the butt-end of my dog.










I know exactly what you mean! There is so much to learn, and so many things to think about all at once. I feel so very uncoordinated most of the time. I love it when DH comes and takes pictures because then I can actually study what is going on.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


what i said was a joke was the trainers out there training and titleing weak dogs, not that SchH was a joke. i've never gotten into the whole "my" sport is better than "your" sport. i like them all, i just have the one i enjoy doing. if i had time i would do them all BUT its not in the cards. As far as useing KNPV vs SchH when it comes to testing, KNPV is designed to produce police and other service dogs.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> what i said was a joke was the trainers out there training and titleing weak dogs, not that SchH was a joke. i've never gotten into the whole "my" sport is better than "your" sport. i like them all, i just have the one i enjoy doing. if i had time i would do them all BUT its not in the cards. As far as useing KNPV vs SchH when it comes to testing, *KNPV is designed to produce police and other service dogs. *


No it is not. It was designed by the Dutch to allow civilians to participate in a bite sport and allow police departments to look at dogs that might have potential for the work. In other words the designers set it up so that if 50 dogs trial and 20 pass the police might find the 5 that they think have real potential.

Just like Schutzhund it shows that a dog meets a certain minimum standard for the characteristics that are valuable in a working dogs according to the originators of that test/sport.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:It isn't so much specific behaviors, but a certain attitude and seriousness they bring to the work


While I might agree with the attitude comments there are behaviors that indicate fight drive. The main one is what is known as a hit back or counter. You can see this behavior when the dog is hit with the stick or threatened with it. Many dogs will torque the sleeve using their body, while others will bite down harder and kind of punch or push hard into the helper. 
Lots of people nowadays seem to think that pulling is fight drive.Pulling is appropriate if the dog is actively trying to stop the helper from escaping when the helper turns away. Pulling away while in front of the helper or trying to pull the sleeve to the back of the helper when the dog is threatened is not fight. Behaviors where the dog is going forward, into the helper usually in response to a threat, are all the things you see in dogs with fight drive.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal Many dogs will torque the sleeve using their body, while others will bite down harder and kind of punch or push hard into the helper.


So is the torque on the sleeve a different drive, or is that also fight drive?

Is there an expression change? Ears? Eyes? Posture? Am I going to be able to see this, or is it something that only the helper will feel?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You can definitely see the behaviors Anne is talking about from the sidelines. It's not something only the helper will notice. Helps to know what to look for though, so remind us to point it out to you. Several of the dogs in club do these things.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing to consider here also with dogs with fight drive is how necessary really strong nerves are in those same dogs. Years ago, people were quite good at bringing out the fight in the dogs. That is because SchH was conducted more like police training. Meaning it was more about the dog fighting the man.. There was not a great deal of skill at achieving a balance,….just like today where there is that same inability only the pendulum as swung over to the prey side of things.
Because of the training and the way the dogs were back then, you could see these behaviors in more dogs than you do now but many of the dogs were dirty and had out problems because of this type of work. They lacked confidence because they were worked too hard and with too much defense. However, there were always the dogs who tolerated this type of training better than others. They were capable of remaining “clear” even under this enormous amount of pressure. Those were the dogs we all looked to and said ‘great dog ‘. Lots of the time we would make positive comments about dogs who did really well in spite of terrible training and terrible handling. The problems that I see the most nowadays is that the dogs who have this aggression and fight, lack clarity. They have a tendency to get a little nutty when you raise the aggression and they just can’t seem to think straight for the lack of a better way to put it. That’s a fault in the temperament . You can’t just look at how the dog fights in that he will just stay in there and fight when he is half out of his mind, he should still have the ability to hear and comply with the handler because his nerves and the confidence he has allows him to do that.
This is just one more thing we are complaining about as far as the way SchH is conducted nowadays. Most people do not bring out this aggression in the dogs and the trial doesn’t much do it anymore either because of the way the dogs are taught to view “protection.” So, less people REALLY know what their dogs are capable of or they will try to convince you that a dog that does not out is a great dog. Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog. I think breeders may be trying to get more aggression in the dogs but they are not looking hard enough at the nerve aspect . When you add in that double dose of drive that people seem to love nowadays, you get dogs that are very difficult to handle and not in a good way.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Icht2 states: "can i ask you what kind of experience you have with dogs? have you ever trained a dog in a sport or a type of service? are you baseing your knowledge on what you have read or experience?"

I notice that you didn't say anything was wrong with what I posted nor about the video. That's because there was nothing too find fault with. Neither if it's from 

As for my experience no it's not theoretical, I do train. I praticipate in the sport of schutzhund. Ring and KNPV clubs aren't very prevalent in this area. I don't just train just "the routine". We use the suit, helper fights with the dog on the ground. I send my dogs into the woods after the helper.... I'm not into training the "jute junky." Although the video of Bernard wasn't at our club, it could be one of our training days. We try to train the complete dog. The saying that a few of us like to use is "We train protection dogs that can do Schutzhund!"

I've seen all prey KNPV dogs that are just going with the "game". I wouldn't put my life on the line to have it protect me. I've also seen others that would flat out hurt a guy. Same with Sch. dogs. I agree that Sch. has swung to a more prey style of training that I don't care for personally. I think that may be about to change after the Worlds this year. As well as the scoring and comments from the judge at the USA Nationals. 

Bottom line is; No one should look to any sport to test and proof their dog. The training should do that and then you can get your titles and try and tweek your training to get those extra control and polish points.


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## DanL (Jun 30, 2005)

Someone posted this clip on another forum. The 2nd half is pretty cool- as soon as the handler shouts at the decoy the dog goes off, like he knows he's going to be in the action very soon. Then thru the car window out the other side right onto the bite. KNPV trained dog that is now on patrol, bred and raised by the handler. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTUwVWO8qO0


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Tim Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


isnt that what i just said just in different words?


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxIcht2 states: "can i ask you what kind of experience you have with dogs? have you ever trained a dog in a sport or a type of service? are you baseing your knowledge on what you have read or experience?"
> 
> I notice that you didn't say anything was wrong with what I posted nor about the video. That's because there was nothing too find fault with. Neither if it's from
> 
> ...


me asking you those questions was me trying to figure out where you got your info..yea, i watched the video you posted and there's really nothing fancy, just looks like a nice dog doing what any SchH dog is trained to do, the same







. prey is easy for a dog to work in, so yes, it is more common in the sport world, it can work on the streets but if your looking for the real deal, the dog needs the fight.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"The dog needs the fight." REALLY??? Probably on of the most obvious statements I've heard recently. Prey works in the street until the bad guy starts fighting back. 

I haven't seen too many prey monsters that would stay on the guy with water in the nose. 

But I guess you are going too know more than Bernard about street dogs. You know Bernard's never accomplished anything. OH wait!!!!! He has.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.


couldnt you also put that in the same category with and very prey oriented dog that is equipment fixated?


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Vandal Mostly, dogs who do not out are lacking confidence and that lack of confidence can be from bad training but also says something about the dog.
> ...


I noticed a lot of dogs at my schH club go insane when they see the sleeve, it's like they can't think and they literally drag there owners to the field while barking insanely.
Isa never barks or goes insane when she sees the sleeve, actually she doesn't even bark for the sleeve when she bites it. Never has. But she will stare into their eyes. 
So is the going crazy from just seeing the sleeve bad nerves then? Or a dog that has too much prey drive??


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


Missy, Judge goes nuts when we get to the field. I mean NUTS. We play ball before anyone else shows up, do some OB and then I put him back to wait his turn. Then we pull him back out for bitework. He starts pulling, jumping around, barking, barking and then if he sees a sleeve on the ground he'll grab it if I let him close enough. 

However, he is not equipment fixated, he will drop the sleeve and bark at the decoy. He loves to work and I guess he shows it by being a butt like he is. 

Also, he is the most confident, rock-solid GSD I've ever met(I'm biast) BUT he is a VERY confident, solid dog, handles any situation with a great attitude and loves people etc. 

I've seen dogs like you described Isa to be and I attribute it to a TON of OB before bitework was started as my little APBT was like that for a long time until she really came alive. 

JMO 
Courtney


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Total beginner compared to some on this board, but this is what I have come to understand regarding the insanity when it's time for protection. 

Generally, I've seen dogs taught that they start the work. They are not reacting to the helper, but pushing the helper into reacting. So a young dog that is taught that he gets to start the work, when he is brought onto the field with the context of the sleeve, helper, etc. will start barking and lunging because this behavior is what has been trained, asked for, and rewarded previously. We reward their enthusiasm. 

As the dog gets older and a firm enthusiasm has been established for the work, then you ask them to contain it. Waiting until asked to let all of that go. I think I've heard it likened to a shaken soda bottle...you want all that energy taken and channeled into intensity and not into barking or action until a command is given so that they explode into that action. This is usually where you start to see "leaking". Previously they've been worked and allowed to go nuts, so asking them to sit and be quiet can be very difficult for them to achieve, not necessarily because of the dog but because of how you've trained it. 

Now, I would guess (certainly wouldn't stake my life on it, because I'm definitely still learning and misinterpreting what I'm seeing or relying on others to explain) that this type of training utilizes more prey drive since you're working with younger dogs and more of a game type mentality. But that too much prey training in an already high prey drive dog can create spazzy behavior. I think again it has to do with balance. I wouldn't think you would take a dog that is more defensive and just work it in defense all the time. You'd do more prey to lighten him up. I think it works the other way too. A dog that's more prey, needs to add a little seriousness.

Just to add, this is a great thread.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


well it would depend, is the dog barking because he knows he going to get the "crap" beat out of him or is the dog barking because he LOVES the work?also is the dog responsive to the handler? or is the dog absolutely(sp) uncontrolable? thats the question i feel would be the best. 

what i mean about getting the crap beat out of him/her is, was the dog pushed into defense to get to bite? i recall a mali that visited our club not too long ago that was pushed so hard that she would literally want to kill you. this dog was later put down because the dog would run off from there property and was a huge risk. now back to the sleeve...(in lamens terms) once she saw the sleeve she knew it was time to fight, she was tought to fight for her life because the previous trainer used her in the "box" or table to get her to bite and she had no choice. yes, that would be the wrong way to use table training.


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