# How rare are Liver gsds?



## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

How rare are they?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They are rare because they are considered a fault. Good breeders do not breed them nor breed for them. They also will avoid breeding on lines that produce livers and blues.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Yea I figured that. But, I strongly disagree with "show standards". I mean, look at the terrible things "show standards" has done to GSDs. Sloped backs, bad hips, hock-walking, so sad. Gsds are not what they used to be due to show standards. I think the liver color is beautiful, and should be bred.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liver is beautiful. So are the blues. But that doesn't change that they are considered a fault. It's not about "show standards". Whether you agree with it or not, it's the BREED standard.

Bad hips having nothing to do with conformation. Zero. And the working lines follow the breed standard just as the show lines do.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Good point. I just feel show standards have ALOT to do with the putting down of "livers, blues, etc". Because they are faults.i just don't agree with the fact they exclued them bc they have faults. But livers are absolutey beautiful. I'd love to see more of the rare colors of the GSDs


Jax08 said:


> Liver is beautiful. So are the blues. But that doesn't change that they are considered a fault. It's not about "show standards". Whether you agree with it or not, it's the BREED standard.
> 
> Bad hips having nothing to do with conformation. Zero. And the working lines follow the breed standard just as the show lines do.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

To answer the "how rare," I've seen over 200 GSDs in high-kill shelters in my state in the past 3 years. I've seen exactly one liver - and one panda (and I think I even know who bred the panda). I can't recall any blues off, the top of my head.

One of the friends I rescue with has a "thing" for rare coat colors, so if there's an oddball in a shelter within 1000 miles, she somehow knows about it....because 300 people on FB have told her about the dog. LoL


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSD202023 said:


> ....show standards ..


There are NO show standards.

There is ONE breed standard. It was created by the founder of the breed. 

The "shows" have absolutely nothing to do with the acceptance, or not, of off colors.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

I'm sorry, "show standard" is just what I call it.


Jax08 said:


> GSD202023 said:
> 
> 
> > ....show standards ..
> ...


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Almost all liver and blues are going to be poorly bred specimens. This is because reputable breeders won't breed for them (for better or worse it is a disqualifying color fault, so they won't intentionally breed for it. Show AND working line. I know blue and fawn dobermans have problems with going bald and other health related genetic problems related to the dilution of color and higher rates of skin cancer. I imagine similar issues are attached to GSD dilutes.)

So only back yard breeders trying to cash in on 'rare' colors are breeding them, and besides most not health testing, they probably are not following other parts of the standard such as temperament (most important tied with health), size, correctness, etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Persinette said:


> Almost all liver and blues are going to be poorly bred specimens. ... I know blue and fawn dobermans have problems with going bald and other health related genetic problems related to the dilution of color and higher rates of skin cancer. I imagine similar issues are attached to GSD dilutes.)


This is not correct. Livers and blues do not have skin issues nor any genetic issues that correlate with the color.

Livers and blues pop up with good breeders. Breeding on Pike can throw livers.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> This is not correct. Livers and blues do not have skin issues nor any genetic issues that correlate with the color.
> 
> Livers and blues pop up. Breeding on Pike can throw livers.


Thanks for the info on the health effects with GSD. My experience was with dobermans where there are problems attached with dilution. Good to know GSD escape this! 

And yes, I know they do pop up from reputable breeders now and again. I just mean MOST since there are breeders online specifically marketing they breed for 'rare' colors, usually also along with "old fashion LARGE" dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dobermans definitely have something going on with the dilutes. 

I know what you meant. It was clear in your second paragraph.  And I agree with it. I'm just saying they do occasionally pop up in good breeders and good lines.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Well I'm just learning away on this post lol. I was just wondering because I bought a liver 4month old gsd pup that was anorexic, had a raspy bark like a resp. Infection,had blood in his stool, the whole 9. But this was from the breeder not bc of his genes. Its day 6 and he has gained weight, barks NORMAL due to the antibiotics we give him (took 4 days for his bark to come), he can even hear better because we cleaned out his MITE infested ears, i mean he has done a complete 360. & we are loving him like no tomorrow. We figured if it wasn't for us, he wouldnt have even been alive another week. It was bad!


Persinette said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > This is not correct. Livers and blues do not have skin issues nor any genetic issues that correlate with the color.
> ...


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

enjoy your pup, but don't breed him.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Persinette said:


> Almost all liver and blues are going to be poorly bred specimens. This is because reputable breeders won't breed for them (for better or worse it is a disqualifying color fault, so they won't intentionally breed for it. Show AND working line. I know blue and fawn dobermans have problems with going bald and other health related genetic problems related to the dilution of color and higher rates of skin cancer. I imagine similar issues are attached to GSD dilutes.)


Blue and liver coats aren't disqualifying faults, they're considered serious faults right along with lack of confidence, faulty gait, short tails etc. It's the lack of pigmentation in their noses (must be predominately black) that keep them out of the ring, not the color of their coats. The only disqualifying coat color is white.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thx for the info! So they are only disqualified because of their noses? Not because of anything else?


Whiteshepherds said:


> Persinette said:
> 
> 
> > Almost all liver and blues are going to be poorly bred specimens. This is because reputable breeders won't breed for them (for better or worse it is a disqualifying color fault, so they won't intentionally breed for it. Show AND working line. I know blue and fawn dobermans have problems with going bald and other health related genetic problems related to the dilution of color and higher rates of skin cancer. I imagine similar issues are attached to GSD dilutes.)
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSD202023 said:


> Thx for the info! So they are only disqualified because of their noses? Not because of anything else?


The AKC breed standard for the GSD only has 6 disqualifying faults including "dogs with noses not predominately black" Blues and livers don't have black noses. 
A serious fault isn't all that much better than a disqualifying fault but there is a difference. 

AKC GSD Disqualifications
Cropped or hanging ears.
Dogs with noses not predominantly black. 
Undershot jaw.
Docked tail.
White dogs.
Any dog that attempts to bite the judge


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Blue and liver coats aren't disqualifying faults, they're considered serious faults right along with lack of confidence, faulty gait, short tails etc. It's the lack of pigmentation in their noses (must be predominately black) that keep them out of the ring, not the color of their coats. The only disqualifying coat color is white.


Thank you for correcting me! I was under the wrong impression and certainly don't want to spread misinformation. I guess that makes sense, what with the whole "there is no GSD of a bad color" philosophy we started with. Of course, that make the fact that whites can't be recognized GSD by the SV even more ironic to me! That's ok, I love the BBS!

ETA (saw a part of your post I missed) Lol! The irony! White GSD even have black noses hehe


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Wow! Can't believe some ppl dock their GS tails! It is too bad they don't allow livers, blues, whites, pandas, etc. I think that would make the shows alot more fascinating! But some don't agree and standards are standards. Personally I think they are beautiful, and I love every color of the german shepherd.


Whiteshepherds said:


> GSD202023 said:
> 
> 
> > Thx for the info! So they are only disqualified because of their noses? Not because of anything else?
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSD202023 said:


> Wow! Can't believe some ppl dock their GS tails! It is too bad they don't allow livers, blues, whites, pandas, etc. I think that would make the shows alot more fascinating! But some don't agree and standards are standards. Personally I think they are beautiful, and I love every color of the german shepherd.


No idea what the deal was with the docked tails or why that ended up in the standard. Can't picture a GSD without a tail. 
I like the variations in coat color too-they're all unique in their own way.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

My first gsd could have been liver. Total fluke thing. It was a good breeding, father being one of the top dogs in the US. But I'm sure that's rare, it does happen. Ended up passing on her though because the breeder thought she'd be more dog than I was ready for...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Why do you ask? 

Are you thinking of having another litter?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSD202023 said:


> Yea I figured that. But, I strongly disagree with "show standards". I mean, look at the terrible things "show standards" has done to GSDs. Sloped backs, bad hips, hock-walking, so sad. Gsds are not what they used to be due to show standards. I think the liver color is beautiful, and should be bred.


The breed standard did not create these faults. It is how judges / breeders interpret the standards.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.


Sunflowers said:


> Why do you ask?
> 
> Are you thinking of having another litter?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

GSD202023 said:


> Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.


 That makes me so sad for you.. just that you paid top dollar and they scammed you.. not that you have a wonderful companion. I would def do something about them so they don't continue to breed these dogs.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you. I guess it was our bad for not researching thorougly on the liver color. But besides that, I have yet to see a liver in my state, so I will consider him a diamond in the rough  he's our precious boy! No matter the condition he was in, we figured he would be better off with us. Money is not as important as our dogs' health. We contacted them a few days later after we got him treated him and no responses. They changed their number. It would be wise of them to never show their faces again, because they will not be confronted nicely. I am working on finding where they live. QUOTE=wyoung2153;7123714]


GSD202023 said:


> Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.


 That makes me so sad for you.. just that you paid top dollar and they scammed you.. not that you have a wonderful companion. I would def do something about them so they don't continue to breed these dogs.[/QUOTE]


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

All i know is they bought his parents from a k9pines kennell..?


wyoung2153 said:


> GSD202023 said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. I bought a liver and paid top price for him because he was "rare" (and beautiful). & with all of the bad things he had when I got him (anorexia, blood poop, worms, mites, etc) we figured they neglected him. I should push the law enforcement issue on the breeders. They are lucky my family and I are in love with him. But, he's in top shape now! We've had him 6 days, and he has done a complete 360 turn around.
> ...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

People should check out Ripoff Report before buying from any kennel.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

I knew of 2 Liver colored GSDs in the course of decades of Shepherds. One was all brown like a Brown Bear, but lighter than a Chocolate Lab. He had very light eyes almost yellow. His nose and nails were a medium brown. His fur was stock length and plush. Owned by a security company this work line male was quite impressive to look at. ...The second dog was a very very curly [not wavy] plush coated female with stock length fur. She had a dark liver saddle and where the tan would be the liver had a strong rust red to it. Almost like a Irish Setter. Eyes were light [not yellow] as was her nose and nails. No mask at all on the face... Both dogs were stunning. Enjoy yours.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Wow! Nice detail. Makes me love my boy even more! He has these bright yellow eyes. I think thats what made me and my kids fall inlove with him the most (aside from his personality). The liver GSDs are stunning!


HOBY said:


> I knew of 2 Liver colored GSDs in the course of decades of Shepherds. One was all brown like a Brown Bear, but lighter than a Chocolate Lab. He had very light eyes almost yellow. His nose and nails were a medium brown. His fur was stock length and plush. Owned by a security company this work line male was quite impressive to look at. ...The second dog was a very very curly [not wavy] plush coated female with stock length fur. She had a dark liver saddle and where the tan would be the liver had a strong rust red to it. Almost like a Irish Setter. Eyes were light [not yellow] as was her nose and nails. No mask at all on the face... Both dogs were stunning. Enjoy yours.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

excerpt from a Linda Shaw article - (in full New Page 1)













7. Four patterns of Blue. 8. Four patterns of Liver. 
The blue and liver genes, once rare, now seem to have captured the imaginations of pet breeders, if my search of the internet is any indication. If otherwise well bred, they can be quite striking in appearance. They are not expressly forbidden, but the standard demands the nose leather be black, and these dilutions show blue and brown leather. The blue gene causes the black pigmentation in both hair and skin to turn steel grey, often very dark, while the tan ground remains much the same, or takes on a slightly silvery cast. The liver gene does much the same, turning black pigmentation brown. In both, the eyes take on a peculiar, silvery yellow colour. Both dilutions are simple recessives and can occur in all patterns, and when these recessives link, the result is the silvery fawn of the Weimaraner and Isabella Doberman Blues and fawns, according to Doberman breeders, tend to have poor hair coats, a good enough reason for culling them, but the so-called lethal gene once thought to be associated with liver appears not to exist. Blue, liver and white puppies should be placed in loving homes where they will be neutered and live as valued pets. Puppies should never be euthanized because of their colour.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture. 








And in his new home. 









I really fell in love with the coloring. If one popped up in a well bred litter I was looking at, I would have no problems getting one!


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

He is gorgeous!! This really makes me feel blessed with the beauty of a liver GSD we have. Thanks for such a positive comment.


gsdsar said:


> I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture.
> 
> [iurl="http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=309466&d=1438487504"]
> 
> ...


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> I fostered a long haired Liver puppy for the local rescue. That puppy was about as cute as can be. Here is a picture.
> 
> View attachment 309466
> 
> ...


What a doll! And I totally agree. I love 'rare'/unique colors in any animal, but don't seek them out for the reasons discussed on this thread. However, if an anomaly popped up in a well bred litter I would hop on the chance to own one.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Persinette said:


> What a doll! And I totally agree. I love 'rare'/unique colors in any animal, but don't seek them out for the reasons discussed on this thread. *However, if an anomaly popped up in a well bred litter I would hop on the chance to own one*.


IOW don't breed for color. Breed for everything *right*.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Uran Wildsteiger Land a modern pillar of the German Show lines is known for producing blue pups .

A friend of mine had a liver from the top specialty (Select / Grand Victor lines) American show lines . A beautiful dog. No health problems .

It happens . 

What I can not stand is those that breed deliberately for commercial reasons --- promoting these colours as rare and exploiting new owners with outrageous prices .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This reminds me of when I was breeding nigerian dwarf goats. The serious breeders are so opposed to blue eyes, moon spots and other flashy colors. Always saying "you can't milk a moonspot". If you had more than one fancy goat in your herd you'd be automatically laughed at by the "serious" breeders because you were obviously selecting for color.

I deliberately added some color to my herd. I didn't compromise on quality, went to a lot of trouble to do it (find worthy breeding stock that also had some flash). I did this for 2 reasons, 1, they are fun to look at. If I am looking at my herd every day they might as well be striking and 2, almost all of my neutered males went to pet homes and they were more likely to sell well if they looked cool. Knowing I would have 5-10 little boys per year trying to woo the pet market or else, giving them qualities that made them attractive to pet buyers was a no brainer.

I never made a breeding decision based on color, it was to improve any one of the attributes i was interested in: parasite resistance, easy to handle and milk, good mothering (we dam raised and if a doe rejected a litter I sold her. Plenty of people yank at birth and and bottle feed ) milk production, milkability of teats, udder attachments and body conformation. If I got lucky and found a colorful goat who could contribute something meaningful to the herd, why not?

Anyway. I have heard all the arguments about the whites, what is the problem with livers or blues? No need to breed FOR it, but if it comes out of a quality breeding why must they be culled into pet homes? I totally agree that if you breed FOR color vs. temperament, working ability ect you will produce pretty dogs who may be good for nothing.

But I really don't understand why a liver or a blue couldn't be allowed to prove himself (or not) to be included in a quality breeder's lineuo


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

blues and livers are a fault on more than one level. They tend to have light eyes, light colored "leather" as well as being a diluted color. 

Since breeding to the SV standard requires that a dog be titled in conformation as well as working, there is no point in not culling a pup that can't compete. It's like if you picked a Nigerian that didn't actually LOOK like a Nigerian and wanted to add it to your breeding program. Say you found a buck that is almost 30" tall. He's good in other ways but you KNOW that all his offspring are going to have the chance of being hugely oversized. And they will pass that down to their offspring and on and on. There is no shortage of quality breeding stock so why chose one that is "good except for..." 

Flashy colors aren't a fault under the standard in Nigerians. Any color or combination of colors is allowed. I've seen plenty of flashy flocks so maybe it is just a belief in your area that "serious" breeders don't want it in their herd? 

Most people I know pull kids at birth because they are milk goats and they sell milk.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I guess what I am getting at is WHY is it a fault? Why does it matter? That's my point. Faulty temperament I get, physical problem, no brainer. But a dog of a different color  who is otherwise breed worthy? Don't get it. That would be like saying Nigerians with moon spots can't go on milk test. I do think OH does are not eligible for top ten awards through ADGA which makes sense because a bigger doe will have a bigger bag and produce more milk and probably not fair to pit her against regular sized NDs. 

And lol lots of breeders use oversized nigerian bucks, are you aware of the controversy over changing the standard to allow bigger bucks? 

Well aware of why people pull kids at birth, I milked my herd and sold milk too and still dam raised. I couldn't go so far from the natural order of things that I would think and a doe who rejected her kids was great for breeding.....although one of the top herds in the country prides itself on having produced does who will deliver their kids and then walk away without another glance. That just doesn't work for me.

My point was there are other people who would be fine with a doe who was a crappy mother, but not me. People who bought my goats were mostly small scale homesteaders and they also wanted to dam raise, so selecting for that kind of trait didn't make sense. 

Anyway, I can understand why some rules come into existence. Others seem kind of arbitrary. I suppose I can even understand people saying whites blend with sheep or can be seen at night or whatever...although I am not thoroughly convinced that those were the original reasons why white was disqualified. I have heard that Stephanitz preferred darker dogs, I have heard people say that white was never desirable, which I have never seen historical evidence of (not saying it isnt true just saying what I heard is just that, hearsay and I am a person who wants to see real proof before I believe something)

After long enough things take on a life of their own...whites were disqualified during Hitler if I am not mistaken and nobody could argue that he didn't have an agenda about racial profiling or whatever you want to call it, he tried to exterminate an entire people so I am not too quick to stand behind it if he had any influence over saying whites were inferior for whatever reason.

At any rate....I don't know why I even get into these discussions except that it bugs me when things don't seem to have a logical or reasonable basis....


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yes there are plenty of flashy herds of NDs but they are generally snickered at by the "elite" breeders, whose herds tend to be significantly less colorful. I could name names but no point


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

light eyes vs dark eyes affects the way the dog interacts with sheep. 
the dilute that changes the coat color to blue or liver also comes with the light piercing eyes and the brown nose.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I guess what I am getting at is WHY is it a fault? Why does it matter? That's my point. Faulty temperament I get, physical problem, no brainer. But a dog of a different color  who is otherwise breed worthy? Don't get it.


Because when the standard was changed people thought the recessive genes that produced blues, livers (and whites) were responsible for color paling, loss of vigor and overall genetic weakness in the breed, etc. People were afraid that allowing these dogs in the ring would increase their popularity and conversely, the recessive genes for the off colors would become entrenched in the breed, bringing genetic problems with them. (letters and magazine articles during this time frame support this view) The reasoning behind the faults were good, if they had been true. They weren't. 

60 years later the prejudices still exist and consequently, the blues and livers are a very small part of the breed. The only data available comes from the AKC...on average 67 livers and 91 blues are registered each year. (By comparison, almost 40,000 GSD's are registered) If I remember correctly only 48% of the pups born to AKC registered sires and dams are registered with the AKC so those numbers can almost be doubled. Still not a large representation of the breed by any means. I have no idea why whites weren't affected in the same way, they took on a life of their own.

Cowboysgirl it's people like you who help to educate people about the breed because rather than accepting things at face value you look for the reasoning and logic, you aren't afraid to ask questions and you don't accept answers that don't make sense. You make people think. Nice quality. :smile2:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, blues and livers were never allowed. the only change was that whites were no longer allowed. So white dogs were a large proportion of the population until around WWII. 

blues and livers, while not related to skin issues as they are in many other breeds, do violate other things besides coat color. Such as having light eyes - GSD eyes should always be dark. Light eyes are predator eyes and herding breeds with light eyes interact with livestock very differently than those with dark eyes.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

part of the confusion back then still causes confusion now. White is a masking gene. So, in the most technical sense, it isn't a color at all. Livers and Blues are dilutes, which is yet another gene. Intensity - red vs tan vs more faded washed out colors is yet a 3rd gene. And all are inherited separately.

You could have a dog that is all 3 - a pale washed out blue/liver dog that is white.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To the best of my knowledge I have the AKC GSD breed standard that was used from 1943-1968. This standard was MUCH more in depth than the one used today. The standard was amended on December 9, 1958 by the AKC to delete references to monorchidsm and cryptorchidism because that was cover in the rules for all breeds. It was amended again when it was voted on in 1967. 

I'm pretty good about verifying information before I post it. If I'm mistaken that's okay, I'd rather have the right information, but until someone produces an AKC standard from this same time period to dispute the one I have I'm going to disagree with some of the comments that have been made. 

I've copied and pasted references to eyes, pigment (there was no distinction in the standard between pigment and coat color, no heading for color) There was no reference to noses, only muzzles, color wasn't mentioned. I've also listed all the faults, minor, major, disqualifying etc. I'd post the whole thing but it really is quite long.

So here we go....Before the whites were disqualified unless they showed albino characteristics, before the blue and liver coats were mentioned at all , and before the color of the dogs noses became important enough to mention them in the fault section.

AKC German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard. Adopted by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America, approved by the Board of Directors of the American Kennel Club December 9, 1958, and accepted as of this date. 

EYES: Eyes--of medium size, almond shaped, set a little obliquely and not protruding. The color as dark as possible. Eyes of lighter color are sometimes found and are not a serious fault if they harmonize with the general coloration, but a dark brown eye is always to be preferred. The expression should be keen, intelligent and composed.

PIGMENT: The German Shepherd Dog differs widely in color and all colors are permissible. Generally speaking, strong rich colors are to the preferred, with definite pigmentation and without the appearance of a washed-out color. White dogs are not desirable, and are to be disqualified if showing albino characteristics.


EVALUATION OF FAULTS
Note: Faults are important in the order of their group, as per group headings, irrespective of their position in each group.

DISQUALIFYING FAULTS
Albino characteristics
Cropped ears
Hanging ears (as in a hound)
Docked tails

VERY SERIOUS FAULTS
Major faults of temperament
Undershot lower jaw

SERIOUS FAULTS
Faults of balance and proportion
Poor gait, viewed either from front, rear or side
Marked deficiency of substance (Bone or Body)
Bitchy male dogs
Faulty backs
Too level or too short croup
Long and weak loin
Very bad feet
Ring tails
Tails much too short
Rickety condition
More than four missing premolars or any other missing teeth, unless due to accident
Lack of nobility
Badly washed-out color
Badly overshot bite

FAULTS
Doggy bitches 
Poorly carried ears
Too fine heads
Weak muzzles
Improper muscular condition
Faulty coat, other than temporary condition
Badly affected teeth

MINOR FAULTS
Too coarse heads
Hooked tails
Too light, round or protruding eyes
Discolored teeth
Condition of coat, due to season or keeping.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

How's this for total heresy....let's get a group of breeding stock representing the very best of all the subcategories of GSDs (whites, wls, wgsl) and mix them all back together and call them "heritage shepherds" :grin2:

Whiteshepherds, thanks for all of your research, it is great to know what is really behind all of this.


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Lol! Cute idea. But I think keeping German Shepherds together is the best! The best part about a German Shepherd is being a German Shepherd! You know how a lot of people are; they already start calling Livers, Blues, Whites, etc mixes. It really sucks having to weed through people just for them to open their eyes to see that they are actually GSDs just different colors! I hate when people spread wrong info, which is why I like to correct those that call a GSD a mix because of color. (Surprisingly, some people think sables are mixes too! I've even came across those that called blk/reds or blk/tans Malinois....go figure!)




Thecowboysgirl said:


> How's this for total heresy....let's get a group of breeding stock representing the very best of all the subcategories of GSDs (whites, wls, wgsl) and mix them all back together and call them "heritage shepherds"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Okay, call them heritage German shepherds. 

By the way, if light eyed dogs can't herd right, why do some aussies have blue eyes? Is that a fault in that breed? Do they not herd as well?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I just found a quote on an aussie website saying studies show livestock are quicker to retreat from a dog with lighter eyes esp in contrast to dark coat. They say it like it is a good thing. I think I just read that all eye colors are allowed in that breed


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Lol! Nice, HGSD has a ring to it. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay, call them heritage German shepherds.
> 
> By the way, if light eyed dogs can't herd right, why do some aussies have blue eyes? Is that a fault in that breed? Do they not herd as well?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I just found a quote on an aussie website saying studies show livestock are quicker to retreat from a dog with lighter eyes esp in contrast to dark coat. They say it like it is a good thing. I think I just read that all eye colors are allowed in that breed



GSDs were created for a different type of herding than aussies. The light eyes drive the livestock away because they are "predator" eyes. For example, Border Collie stare. It's intimidating, even for humans. That is their primary "weapon" in handling stock. 

GSDs can be used to herd and separate members of the flock but their primary function was to act as a living fence. You didn't want the stock to startle whenever they came face to face with the dog.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

FTR, blues were allowable and shown at one point. They weren't preferred, but they were allowed.

There is a blue AKC champion, after all.

And dilutes in some breeds do suffer from an issue called Color Dilution Alopecia. Liver is a modified color of black, but is not dilute. The dilute of liver is isabella (fawn).


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

I read up about an argument of 2 people. 1 person arguing that colors (liver, white, blue, panda, etc) caused issues in GSDs (blindness, deafness, prone to more diseases, etc), while the other person made the point of GSDs aren't "more prone" to anything because of the fault color (like other breeds), but they are more likely of having problems only because they are being bred FOR the color (and not temperament, drive, ability, etc). 
Just wanted to throw this question out there.... DOES the fault colors affect GSDs? Or is it only the breeding that effects the "colored" GSDs, and not the "colors" in itself?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Color Dilution Alopecia | Dermatology for Animals - Part 1


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

This article only explained the effects of the dilution to individual dogs (or dog breeds). My question was more generalized, referring to the German Shepherd breed itself being affected to fault colors. I know Aussies, Dobermans, Collies (I believe), and some other breeds have effects with color faults in the dogs -- but I've heard German Shepherds don't have this problem. 
I own a Liver GSD, (he is a family pet only, we also do some bitework with him and PPD training - he loves it.) He is perfectly healthy. His coat is shiny and thick, his weight is up there (about 110lbs), and he has a nice drive.





Xeph said:


> Color Dilution Alopecia | Dermatology for Animals - Part 1


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The answer was within the link. It effects different breeds at different rates, but a breed that comes in a dilute color is not automatically immune/unaffected just because no incidences of the issue have been seen.

Blue is not common enough in our breed to make a determination on how frequently CDA appears, but it would seem it's certainly less frequent than in Dobermans.

It is wrong to say "GSDs don't have this problem" in regards to the dilutes. Just that there is not current documentation of it.

Liver is not dilute, so its useless to look to those animals


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

I read the article. I'm aware that things could be wrong with no documentation to prove it. 
MY point was that there was numerous people pointing out the fact that GSDs weren't affected by color; I NEVER said this. I was simply restating what others have said. I have even came upon many counts of articles/research topics that say the same. But I am the type of person that doesn't just go off of a few articles or people, I like to actually gain as much info as possible. 

As for the Liver situation, I understand a liver isn't considered a dilution. I wasn't referring to the dilution part of the colors, I was stating IN GENERAL, that my LIVER GSD is perfect in health; especially for those that say livers are affected as well. Does this mean I'm saying all livers will be perfect in health due to color? No. I'm not sure. I'm going to leave it to the scientists on that one.







Xeph said:


> The answer was within the link. It effects different breeds at different rates, but a breed that comes in a dilute color is not automatically immune/unaffected just because no incidences of the issue have been seen.
> 
> Blue is not common enough in our breed to make a determination on how frequently CDA appears, but it would seem it's certainly less frequent than in Dobermans.
> 
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSD202023 said:


> DOES the fault colors affect GSDs? Or is it only the breeding that effects the "colored" GSDs, and not the "colors" in itself?


It isn't the norm for GSD's to have genetic problems due to their coat colors like some other breeds.

As for color dilution alopecia; Studies for why some dilutes get it and others don't are inconclusive, even for the breeds who are known to have it like the Doberman.
I don't see the logic in assuming the GSD is affected by CDA when there is no documentation to back up that theory. This is the same logic that got the whites disqualified. Convoluted. 

The Doberman Pinscher Club of America has a short article about CDA. It's interesting to note that the AKC Doberman Pinscher breed standard does not fault the blue coat btw, it's an acceptable color. 

https://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/articles/40-health/271-color-dilution-alopecia


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## GSD202023 (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks for actually answering my question spot on. I was genuinely interested in knowing if the coat/recessive gened fault colors in itself gave the dog a problem. 
I know dilutes of other breeds (and certain dogs) can have issues; but my question was to colors in particular, so thanks again for answering, Whiteshepherds! 





Whiteshepherds said:


> GSD202023 said:
> 
> 
> > DOES the fault colors affect GSDs? Or is it only the breeding that effects the "colored" GSDs, and not the "colors" in itself?
> ...


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## Eli.keyrouz (Feb 14, 2020)

i have a liver puppy from my dog first birth gave


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