# Doesn’t have “scraps” but goes into kill mode



## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

I have a German Shepherd/Lab Mix. She is 1 1/2. Mom was full German Shepherd. She has been a complete delight since we got her at 6 weeks. She was potty trained by 8 weeks, love her kids, very submissive. Weary of strangers, but if she gets too upset (barking fearfully) we remove her from the room. She has gotten along with all our dogs until recently. I have a female westie. She is bossy, and gets into scraps with ever dog we’ve had in our home. I say attack but it’s more like a reprimand to them, and you can say her name and no, she ends it. She has really never “scraped” with a dog who didn’t submit to her. She has always been bossy with our mix since she was a baby. It wasn’t a issue because our mix is a very submissive dog. 

Well in January we had a incident where the westie went after her and she didn’t just scrap but went into kill mode. She was shaking the westie and wouldn’t let go. We tried everything from trying to hit her to prying her mouth open. I grabbed her scruff and collar and lifted her as high as I could and she dropped her. My westie didn’t move right away. I believe she was suffocating her: there were wounds but none were deep, and luckily said westie recovered to normal. She knew what she did, and hid and even shook in her crate when you shamed her. This dog is very responsive, and intelligent. Honesty has been amazing to own. She after that wouldn’t play with the westie until recently, and would even run away or hide if you said the Westies name sternly. 

Yesterday we were setting up our pool so the environment was excited, then the train was getting ready to come by a few blocks away and they love you howl with the horn. Well my mix is young and was overly excited so my westie tried to reprimand her, and my mix snapped again. It ended quickly as I could get our of the pool , my 14yr old tried to stop it but didn’t know to grab her scruff when lifting her up so the collar kept slipping. Again he tried screaming her name, no, even spanking her (this dog doesn’t even have to be disciplined more then a shame, she is a very mindful dog), it seemed long but was over probably within a minute. Again she was shaking my westie and no responding, until I lifted her by her collar and scruff then she let go. Mind you if I let her down immediately she wouldn’t stop but calms down by the time my kids ran the westie inside. Obviously I left her in the yard while assessing damage. The westie is fine but has 3 small (and shallow) puncture wounds on her leg. 

My issue is I understand having a pack of dogs will have “scraps” but this isn’t a scrap. She is trying to kill my westie. I’m not even sure she would stop if she did kill her. It’s like a flip switches and she is not reachable and set only on killing my westie. I grew up with dogs, and have owned a total of 5 Westies in my life (as well as my Irish wolfhound), so I’ve seen scraps. But this isn’t a scrap over food, or dominance. I’m at a loss because the mix once she realizes what happened is so remorseful. When I went out to bring her in and crate her (separating the two) she was no where to be found and eventually found under my husband wood working table. She wouldn’t come out. Once I got her out and in her crate she wouldn’t look at me and shaked as I told her she was bad. This girl really is a great dog, but something happens when my westie reprimands her. She doesn’t always attack back, only has happened twice. But it is scary. I have never seen a dog try to kill another dog, and I’m at a loss what to do. 

Both dogs are good dogs, my westie is bossy but I wouldn’t call get her aggressive. She never goes to hurt or kill other dogs, just to tell them calm down most of the time. My mix as I said before is amazing. Loves her kids, loves the other dogs in the home (another westie who is 9 1/2 and my 8yr old Irish wolfhound), she has gotten along fine with my bossy westie until these two times. I cannot let her kill my westie, I love my westie but I love her too. I just am at a loss, because she is a great dog, but honestly it’s like a flip switched and she wasn’t the same dog. Obviously now that it has happened twice I will have to be more careful but they get along and she doesn’t care about being bossed except for these two times. Any advice would be helpful. 

Obviously keeping them separated especially since both times seems to happen in the back yard (maybe my mix sees the backyard as hers because she plays with the kids back there a lot and my westie is a mamas girl and usually near me) is a must. I feel at a loss because the westie starts it to a point but then my mix takes it too far. 

This is the first German Shepherd mix I’ve owned, so I don’t know if this response is normal behavior or not. I feel I should add all pets in the home are fixed so hormones do not play a part. My mix is exercised constantly, we have 4 kids from 7-14. She is always running playing chase, football (her favorite toy is a deflated football), playing in the sprinkler, she even jumps with the kids on the trampoline. So I know the aggression response is not due to lack or exercise and stimulation. But I don’t know why the response is what it is, and why only those times? Is it going to get worse? Any recommendations would be helpful.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I think you summed up the problem quite nicely:



AliAlley said:


> She has always been bossy with our mix since she was a baby.


You have allowed your Westie to pick on your mix puppy all along...



AliAlley said:


> It wasn’t a issue because our mix is a very submissive dog.


The mix was submissive until it grew up a bit...and predictably then



AliAlley said:


> Well in January we had a incident where the westie went after her and she didn’t just scrap but went into kill mode.


Then the mix decided it had had enough!

You need to find a good, balanced dog trainer to help you manage the dog dynamics in your pack to avoid such problems. Period.

That, or do some rehoming for everyone's benefit!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Keep you dogs separated the until you get a reputable trainer to come to your home who has experience with German shepherds. Your larger dog has had enough of your smaller dog pushing him around. The second attack left puncture wounds. With the size difference and how ingrained the behavior is in your smaller dog from being practiced, you most likely will need to keep your dogs separated indefinitely or rehome one of them. Hope the trainer can help here.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

"Scraps" should never be allowed in any pet dogs. They should not be normal and certainly don't have to be.

I agree with the others' comments. Your Westie is obviously the instigator. She should not be allowed to correct any other dog. That's your job, not hers. 

Stop your little dog from doing this. You can see it coming so step in and prevent that behavior, or always keep them separated.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is an insecure dog getting picked on and then snapping. You are adding to the insecurity by "shaming" her afterwards instead of supporting her before she feels the need to defend herself.

The fact that she hides from you instead of coming to you for help explains your relationship. She has no one to protect her and she doesn't want to do it herself, but you have given her no choice.

Added to the problem is same sex aggression. Whether or not they are spayed, 2 females may never get along 100% of the time.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I agree with the other posters. Keep in mind that your 14 year old could have been seriously hurt if either dog redirected onto him. Keep them separated, please.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

While your suggestions are somewhat helpful, they aren’t in some instances. The westie isn’t “allowed” to pick on the other dogs and does get in trouble for it. But the point is she is a terrier, this is a typical behavior for terriers. If you ever owned several terriers it would explain their personalities, and their “attitude”. She is not allowed to run reign picking on anyone. I suppose I should explained better on her “reprimanding” better example would be a grump old dogs attitude. Secondly my mix running is not a “example” of our relationship. She is a VERY sensitive dog. She isn’t fearful, but doesn’t like getting in trouble. As I’ve said she is very behaved for the most part, and RARELY gets into trouble (so the hiding isn’t because of our relationship 🙄, she sleeps next to me, lays outside my bathroom when I shower. Lays on the bed while I dress. Some would call her a Velcro dog, only time she leaves my side is when the kids are playing because she loves to play with the kids. This being said the same westie is usually next to her when this happens because she is also attached to me) She is a dog that is eager to please their owner, so when she is in trouble she takes it personal. I suppose I should elaborated more on our relationship and go more in depth with the dynamics. The part I do believe was right is I do believe she is responding to fear possibly. I’ve considered it, or maybe it has something to do with the excited state from the howling at the train. That is something they are extremely excited about, they all run out the doggy door (we believe that it also may be the same situation that caused the same fight). So you’re talking about a excited energy and I think if the westie tries to tell her to chill out she just takes that and turns it on her. I am keeping them separated for the most part. I’ve decided they can’t go outside alone period. I do believe the “attitude” my westie had may of learned her lesson. I have the mix lose crating the westie at night, never letting them be alone in a environment I’m not in control of (for example getting excited in the back yard over the train honking). I am controlling all the environments and energy. My mix was just walking through the living room and my westie was standing up to go sunbathe in front of the front door (another common thing for the breed) and looked and came over to me. The mix looked at her and went on by. It not a hateful relationship between them like they are at each other’s throats. They get along beautifully except for these two times. I do like the recommendation of a trainer, I will look into it, being I’m in a mountain valley it may not be possible when the nearest actually city is 2 1/2 hours away. But I am going to see if I can find one. As I said this is my first time owning this breed and while she has been a breeze raising (actually to train much easier then a terrier, but then again most people can barely potty train small terriers, I see people complaining about it on the westie groups on Facebook constantly. My Westies will stop and respond to anything I tell them to, even seeing a cat they may sit there and whine but will not move if I tell them to stay) I wasn’t sure if this is common response to conflict from the breed, and if there was any training commands I could teach her to de-escalate it from happening. She knows basic commands such as drop it, leave it but those didn’t work in those situation. As for my 14yr old we have explained the dangers of him trying to break them up. He knows he shouldn’t interfere. But again any recommendations other then assuming to known the situation of their living and situations. I was asking for help (which is why I think a trainer would help) because I do not have experience with her breed. I know there is tactics that work well based on breeds. So any HELP would be great.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So, you just rolled your eyes at advice from @David Winners, without bothering to check into this man’s expertise.
You think you are “controlling all the environments and energy.”

We can’t help you.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

yes I will roll my eyes when someone presumes to know a situation without giving asking questions to clarify before they choose to ridicule a situation. But thanks I will remember not to come to any German shepherd owners in the future for advice. I shouldn’t be surprised because I’ve witnessed the same thing from my fellow westie owners for first time owners of the breed looking for advice on situations. Funny how some can be so unwilling to help so people could learn to love the breed as you do, and raise successful pets without behavioral issues. Thanks anyways I suppose. I will see if there is resources I can find with people willing to help me train my dogs to prevent this situation happening again. Figured I’d ask experienced owners before searching for a trainer for her.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You got replies, and you got help, but you don’t like what you were told.

Hopefully, someone with in a similar situation will take the advice given, and benefit.
That’s why we take the time and the trouble to type out these replies: we hope to help dogs.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've had terriers.Hubby's dog is a terrier mutt. My daughter,in fact, just got two terrier puppies last week. I 100% understand and admire their tough,assertive,and tenacious attitudes. Correcting them after the fact does nothing in the situation you describe. They need to be reminded _before_ they give the other dog a look or a lip curl and the attitude(go ahead punk,make my day).I know which scenarios are most likely to be triggers and either redirect or point at the dog "Uh uh,not happening!" Not being able to train away a dog's genetics and personality, it has to be managed proactively IMHO.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Keep them separated and find a good private trainer to come out to your house and observe. Because of your location that might be difficult, but it doesn’t seem you have the attitude or dog awareness to handle it yourself. ”Only two times” is still not a minor event. It will happen again unless you make sure it doesn't. This is all on you, not the dogs. David is an experienced trainer and handler. You have no idea what his experience is. By allowing yourself to get offended and leaving you are showing us you aren't interested in making changes, but want an easy fix. There isn’t one. Both dogs should feel and be safe at home. Your Westie isn’t going to stop on its own and your younger dog won’t stop defending itself. You need to make some permanent changes. 

I noticed a few red flags. 
1. You keep referring to the Westie behaviors and personalities as if being a Velcro dog or your Westie experience has any bearing on the other dog’s behavior. It doesn’t.
2. Your environment was excited yesterday, there was an incident in January and yet the dogs were both loose together in the yard while you were in the pool. They should have been separated until you were right there to stop any interactions.
3. David is 100% right. What did he say that was incorrect from a training or behavior situation?


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> I've had terriers.Hubby's dog is a terrier mutt. My daughter,in fact, just got two terrier puppies last week. I 100% understand and admire their tough,assertive,and tenacious attitudes. Correcting them after the fact does nothing in the situation you describe. They need to be reminded _before_ they give the other dog a look or a lip curl and the attitude(go ahead punk,make my day).I know which scenarios are most likely to be triggers and either redirect or point at the dog "Uh uh,not happening!" Not being able to train away a dog's genetics and personality, it has to be managed proactively IMHO.


Exactly thank you. We do stop her attitude immediately, and even after. You understand that assertiveness you have to use on a terrier. But also understand their personalities. We like you get on her if she get “grumpy”, I guess my problem is when it does go undetected as in a backyard while you are setting up a pool and they are excited and she sneaks a attitude in. My issue is the German Shepherd mix response. It wasn’t a growl back it was a full on attack and since I do not have experience with German Shepherd I don’t know the best way to address this with her, or for her to manage a better response. You can’t have one dog try to kill another because it did a growl, or whatever. You have German Shepherd as well? What would you do in this situation? I’m managing the terrier, but how to I manage German shepherds response as well?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I’m going to say your biggest mistake is not taking David’s advice seriously. He is incredibly knowledgeable.
Do not excuse your westies behaviour as being due to breed, training is what is needed.
I have 2 schipperkes as well as a GSD. The schipps came to me with behaviours I wasn’t keen on. I’ve worked hard to change them but it’s an ongoing process. The one Schipp is as dominant as they come. I walk her and if a dog comes close and makes eye contact with her, they roll over to submit. My GSD doesn’t roll over or submit to anything but he does respect her place in our pack. She will attempt to correct him at times and I intervene. Big dog vs little dog, not worth the risk. They are never unsupervised when together and that’s without ever having an altercation.
Females are bitches, once a grudge is set, there is no fixing. Take this very seriously. My mom schipp and daughter would fight to the death of access happens so we keep them separate at all times. Female/female aggression is not uncommon in the breed which is why you won’t see me bring a female here with my other females. You are going to have a dead westie if you don’t change your mindset and get some professional help and assessment.
Dogs live in the moment so scolding and guilting them after has zero effect. What they do know is you’re upset because of body language and tone of voice, really unfair for them. Dogs also don’t just “feel bad or guilty”, they are reacting to you. When your dog hides from you,
It’s because they fear you in that moment, this is NOT good for your relationship with them.

lastly….

there are incredibly well know breeders and trainers on this board, your attitude towards their Input is nothing but insulting and will result in the right people not bothering to help you. These people don’t get paid to help those wanting to learn, they are volunteering their time and expertise , both of which they get paid for outside of this forum.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

We have had several terriers over the years. I completely understand their attitudes. None of ours was allowed to behave the way you seem to think yours is entitled to behave. Yes, they are terriers, but they also need to understand that they are not in control, you are. As long as you keep making excuses for your dog and allowing her to continue this behavior, there won't be any solution.

Please read over David Winner's response again and again. He knows what he is talking about, even if he doesn't know your dogs personally.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> Keep them separated and find a good private trainer to come out to your house and observe. Because of your location that might be difficult, but it doesn’t seem you have the attitude or dog awareness to handle it yourself. ”Only two times” is still not a minor event. It will happen again unless you make sure it doesn't. This is all on you, not the dogs. David is an experienced trainer and handler. You have no idea what his experience is. By allowing yourself to get offended and leaving you are showing us you aren't interested in making changes, but want an easy fix. There isn’t one. Both dogs should feel and be safe at home. Your Westie isn’t going to stop on its own and your younger dog won’t stop defending itself. You need to make some permanent changes.
> 
> I noticed a few red flags.
> 1. You keep referring to the Westie behaviors and personalities as if being a Velcro dog or your Westie experience has any bearing on the other dog’s behavior. It doesn’t.
> ...





Saphire said:


> I’m going to say your biggest mistake is not taking David’s advice seriously. He is incredibly knowledgeable.
> Do not excuse your westies behaviour as being due to breed, training is what is needed.
> I have 2 schipperkes as well as a GSD. The schipps came to me with behaviours I wasn’t keen on. I’ve worked hard to change them but it’s an ongoing process. The one Schipp is as dominant as they come. I walk her and if a dog comes close and makes eye contact with her, they roll over to submit. My GSD doesn’t roll over or submit to anything but he does respect her place in our pack. She will attempt to correct him at times and I intervene. Big dog vs little dog, not worth the risk. They are never unsupervised when together and that’s without ever having an altercation.
> Females are bitches, once a grudge is set, there is no fixing. Take this very seriously. My mom schipp and daughter would fight to the death of access happens so we keep them separate at all times. Female/female aggression is not uncommon in the breed which is why you won’t see me bring a female here with my other females. You are going to have a dead westie if you don’t change your mindset and get some professional help and assessment.
> ...


I am not excusing a dogs behavior but as someone said their attitudes is as part of the breed. We do respond instantly in the moment, if she does anything. I cannot explain a terriers disposition to someone who hasn’t owned them. But she is disciplined when she does anything. The dogs were together because we had not had any issues with them since then and never before that. We had slowly over time let them spend more and more time with each other since it happened 6 months ago. I was frustrated because I found I was having to defend a situation instead of really receiving advice. I am not looking for a quick fix but because I do live in a mountain valley and help is not available. It is farm workers and immigrants. The nearest Walmart is in the next town. Then 2 1/2 hours away after that. I came here for advice on the breed. How to react and prevent. I do have 20 years of westie experience but this is my first experience with German Shepherds and why I came here for help. I know trainers are great (if I can even find one) but people who’ve owned the breed know the trade secrets or better approaches. So it wasn’t a lack of wanting help it’s a lack of wanting to defend a things instead of getting the help I need. As I said above I cannot have a dog try to kill another because one growled . So I came to experienced owners for advice, because if I can’t find a trainer I’m in a bad spot. Obviously we aren’t ever going to let them out of arms reach alone ever again. I wish I could show you their usual reactions with each other. Even after last time they acted like it never happened and again they are acting the same. This isn’t a situation where a grudge is held. That’s why I’m asking help because it’s not aggressive dog situation. It’s the my mixes response, and why it happened. You’re talking about dogs that are bestie friends and then this happened. I honestly don’t know how to explain it. It’s why I came for help. If they hated each other I could handle it, I would know the signs and how to prevent. But it’s not like that. Other then maybe sharing pictures? It speaks louder then words. On their personalities, and how I’m at a loss how to fix it. Only one I have of them cuddling are videos (and videos of them playing, my other 2 dogs are seniors so they played a lot) and I don’t know how to post them. But these dogs aren’t like what you would expect they are all cuddle buddies. Maybe I should’ve started with how good their bonds with each other are before explaining what happened, because it was painted in a intense household with not rules and training which is opposite of what it is. As I said before so know how to train my Westies it’s my 20years of experience and do not know how to address this behavior from my mix.. I am going to look into a trainer (again if I can find one) but in the meantime if anyone has any suggestions other then separating them (which we are doing).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What you’re not understanding is that once this starts, it will not stop and it will only get worse.
I think your best bet is to keep them separate because you are not fast enough if an attack happens, dogs will always be faster than humans.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> What you’re not understanding is that once this starts, it will not stop and it will only get worse.
> I think your best bet is to keep them separate because you are not fast enough if an attack happens, dogs will always be faster than humans.


This behavior is unable to be fixed even with a trainer?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@AliAlley my guess is the shepherd is being proactive herself - I'll get you before you get me.When you're doing something like setting up a pool one stays indoors or somewhere where they can't access each other. It becomes second nature after a while when you have multiple dogs - you know pretty much exactly what they will do when and just head it off before it happens.

I currently have a shepherd,a husky/hound mix,and hubby's pit/terrier mutt.All totally different personalities. It's been really fun and interesting getting this little pack to mesh.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @AliAlley my guess is the shepherd is being proactive herself - I'll get you before you get me.When you're doing something like setting up a pool one stays indoors or somewhere where they can't access each other. It becomes second nature after a while when you have multiple dogs - you know pretty much exactly what they will do when and just head it off before it happens.
> 
> I currently have a shepherd,a husky/hound mix,and hubby's pit/terrier mutt.All totally different personalities. It's been really fun and interesting getting this little pack to mesh.


 You are probably right on the My mix girl. It’s not her nature. She is honestly the sweetest dog I’ve ever owned, and honestly the best other then this situation. My husband and I have discussed the situation and agreed to keep them separated, both dogs are very loved. My female westie I had that I lost in OCT 2019 due to cancer we kept separated 90% of the time. Not due to aggression but she was very old and lost pretty much all her eye site (the cancer wouldn’t go away and stay regardless the Intense treatments we did) so she would follow the others and get lost, being where we are located we have eagles, owls, coyotes. Very Rural area so it was dangerous for her to get lost even in the fenced yard (and winters are well below zero and we feared if she ever went out the doggy door and couldn’t get back in..) . I will just have to go back in the routine of keeping the other westie separate like I did my older girl before she passed. The westie doesn’t run so I can let her go out in the front to use the potty and she loves going bye bye, so separating them is possible and can be easily done (we did it for months before we reintroduced them together, they no joke 3 weeks ago I have videos of cuddling, cleaning each other’s ears) I will just have to make the separation permanent. Thank you for the advice.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Don’t get involved with a false sense of security. I can have my less confident schipp on my lap and her mom can approach and clean her ears, lick her face and cuddle. If I were to get up and leave them, it’s game on. 2 vet trips from mistakes we made but they are equal size. It’s not uncommon for a growl to lead to an immediate fight.
I’d be doing rotations and keeping them separate at all times, one slip and your Westie is in big trouble. You can’t move fast enough to prevent a grab.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

Saphire said:


> Don’t get involved with a false sense of security. I can have my less confident schipp on my lap and her mom can approach and clean her ears, lick her face and cuddle. If I were to get up and leave them, it’s game on. 2 vet trips from mistakes we made but they are equal size. It’s not uncommon for a growl to lead to an immediate fight.
> I’d be doing rotations and keeping them separate at all times, one slip and your Westie is in big trouble. You can’t move fast enough to prevent a grab.


 I think you are right. We will do rotations and keep them separate at all times. It’s not worth losing my westie and having my German Shepherd marked as aggressive


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

I strongly suggest you crate and rotate. These two dogs likely will never be 100% trustworthy around each other. We have to do that with our two females because one is a resource guardian and will start fights with the other and it’s resulted in injuries to the dogs and me. With crating and rotating everyone is safe and happy


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

You've had your Westie a long time, & love & appreciate her behavior. She's little & cute, possibly has gotten away with things. Dogs can get spoiled, just like kids can. 
Now you also love a big dog & she is the submissive, sensitive one. Probably a gentler soul. An example of appearances being deceptive. 
You do need to protect your new dog from the Westie. I can tell you love them both. But, you aren't familiar enough yet with what to expect from a "mix", and seem to think because she's big she should take care of herself without hurting anyone. 
The situation needs to change, which you recognize. Don't let your emotions get in the way of what is good for all of you.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

AliAlley said:


> I think you are right. We will do rotations and keep them separate at all times. It’s not worth losing my westie and having my German Shepherd marked as aggressive


Here is what can happen when an owner spilts up a dog fight. This is a friend of mine, she knows dogs, active in IPG, fantastic lady who knows her stuff. Her older female GSD, out of the blue went at her young GSD. She was by herself and her dogs adore her, are trained and she knows her ****. 
This was just her one arm, things happen fast.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I agree with others on separating them. At one point, we had a male Westie, a male Doxie mix, and two GSDs (one female, one male). We got the GSDs (at separate times) as adults and they were both dog-aggressive initially. The female GSD came to us around 3 years of age and the male was adopted at 15 months. We did a lot of crating and rotating, plus 1-on-1 training before introducing them. Both GSDs were eventually fine with the two little dogs and they could all hang out in the same room (under direct supervision) with no issue. 

But the Westie lost his hearing as he got older and we didn’t want any accidents. So we got 7 indoor gates. The two GSDs were separated from the two little dogs as they got older. It was just less stressful for everyone involved.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

San said:


> So we got 7 indoor gates. The two GSDs were separated from the two little dogs as they got older. It was just less stressful for everyone involved.


I think anytime you get same sex dogs, you need to be prepared for the possibility that they may need to be separated at least when they aren’t being heavily supervised. I think this situation could be salvaged, but the owners need to be willing and able to check both dogs when they are out of line. They also need to be able to catch these incidents before they start to escalate. If it’s already happening or after the fact, you are too late.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

These are telling signs right here.


AliAlley said:


> very submissive. Weary of strangers, but if she gets too upset (barking fearfully) we remove her from the room.


This is a submissive dog with nerve issues. I'm not picking on the dog, just pointing out what your description says about the dog.


AliAlley said:


> I have a female westie. She is bossy, and gets into scraps with ever dog we’ve had in our home.


This is a terrier acting like a terrier. I have owned several and trained a bunch. If you let them have an inch, they will take it and then some. 



AliAlley said:


> She has really never “scraped” with a dog who didn’t submit to her.


This indicates that you let her scrap with other dogs until they submit.



AliAlley said:


> She has always been bossy with our mix since she was a baby. It wasn’t a issue because our mix is a very submissive dog.


This indicates that you allow the terrier to repeatedly force the GSD into submission, and that you feel that this is acceptable.



AliAlley said:


> She knew what she did, and hid and even shook in her crate when you shamed her.


This indicates that she ran from you, was then put into a crate or ran there herself and then you continued verbally correcting or shaming her. 



AliAlley said:


> would even run away or hide if you said the Westies name sternly.


This indicated that she is fearful of you and that your yelling sends her into avoidance.

I'm not trying to make things up or paint you or the dogs in a bad light. You have a relationship problem with your dog, and a relationship problem between your dogs. If you would like some help with fixing these relationships, you are in the right place. Please don't take any of this personally. You have a problem and we want to help. There is no need to defend yourself or your dogs. Every person here has made mistakes with dogs over the years. I have made more than most I am sure.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Something else which hasn’t been mentioned. Your dog isn’t a GSD, she is a high content mix. I also have one. Her mother was full German Shepherd. Her father was 1/4-1/3 German Shepherd. The rest is a mix of other breeds which aren’t relevant here. She looks like a German Shepherd and has a few GSD traits but otherwise she is not typical of the breed. You mentioned you were hoping we could help you so you like the breed. We can’t do that for you. Either you like them or you don’t. But your dog is a mix and may be exhibiting GSD behaviors but also may not. We can help with the problems you are having but you aren’t getting a full German Shepherd picture or experience with a mix.


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## Réa538 (Mar 25, 2021)

Saphire said:


> Here is what can happen when an owner spilts up a dog fight. This is a friend of mine, she knows dogs, active in IPG, fantastic lady who knows her stuff. Her older female GSD, out of the blue went at her young GSD. She was by herself and her dogs adore her, are trained and she knows her ****.
> This was just her one arm, things happen fast.
> View attachment 574958


Sapphire, I'm so sorry for your friend! A dog fight is a terrible and frightening situation.... especially when you are alone. Thing is....when a dog passes that point to physically confrontation, they are seldom able to see anything else but red. Sad sad situation 😔


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## Réa538 (Mar 25, 2021)

David Winners said:


> These are telling signs right here.
> 
> This is a submissive dog with nerve issues. I'm not picking on the dog, just pointing out what your description says about the dog.
> 
> ...


All very good points! I have seen many times the way people treat their dogs like children... especially small dogs. They "get away with murder" because they aren't large and intimidating in stature. Thing is....they aren't children, they are dogs. They think like dogs, act like dogs and REact like dogs. Not their fault that some people don't understand them.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

LuvShepherds said:


> Something else which hasn’t been mentioned. Your dog isn’t a GSD, she is a high content mix. I also have one. Her mother was full German Shepherd. Her father was 1/4-1/3 German Shepherd. The rest is a mix of other breeds which aren’t relevant here. She looks like a German Shepherd and has a few GSD traits but otherwise she is not typical of the breed. You mentioned you were hoping we could help you so you like the breed. We can’t do that for you. Either you like them or you don’t. But your dog is a mix and may be exhibiting GSD behaviors but also may not. We can help with the problems you are having but you aren’t getting a full German Shepherd picture or experience with a mix.


This is a great point. My dog is also a high content GSD mix. She looks like a plush coat GSD. Her entire litter was dumped at the shelter and they all looked alike, except some were stock and some plush. But you are right, she is not typical of the breed. Sometimes, I see her wanting to stand up and be a guard, but it just isn't in her. She does not have an aggressive bone in her body. She has a big GSD bark and can scare the bejesus out of people, but that's all she's got. She also does not have the GSD intelligence. It's OK. She's a special cupcake and we love her to death.


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## AnnaMarie (May 17, 2021)

I have to say, I can’t quote who said it. Female on female aggression will never 100%. We know dogs are not humans, but this, this we humans take from them. Have you ever. Known two human females who go at it, really at it get over it? No, we just deal with it a little better because we are human.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

I was reading my emails this morning and this post caught my interest. Please don't take my input as a personal criticism, I have made many mistakes with my GSD's and it is above all a learning path you are on (as am I as well). I have had 3 generations of shepherds and still find that I am learning of their character traits both genetically and personality wise. From what I have read in this forum, I have yet to read anyone making mention that your dog is part lab.. Hmmm, it sounds as though there are some definite lab traits as well, I have experienced very some serious aggression from labs as well, challenging me as well as one of my shepherds even in a neutral place. My dogs are trained to get along with other dogs by socializing and play time but always under supervision. You're right though separating seems like the only answer for an older and young dog. Even my male K9 and his mother have snips and occasionally dominant/jealousy issues. Both get sent to their respective corners for a time out (figuratively speaking lol) and the next moment they are back to playing and enjoying life. It's as if we expect perfect behavior from them.. kind of like siblings lol. The old adage about teaching old dogs new tricks certainly sounds apropos here. Your westie (if I read this correctly) is older and much more set in her ways, so a lot of work should provide changes, but I agree about getting a trainer who really understands dogs as being really important. We have used e-collars on both dogs which may stop your issue before it gets started. Once you see the lip curl and the prep work started to a fight a collar can quickly snap the dog out of it. My current female hates the collar so much that all we have to do is ask her if she wants the collar and she rethinks her current action. We are not heavy handed with her but it seems to redirect her thinking pretty well.
This is way off on another planet but I had a similar issue with my current male K9 who when he was younger training had a super dominant 8-10 month puppy come out and declare that it was going to rule the roost. Chunk (my dog) took him down and held him down for a few seconds until he disciplined the puppy into submission. After the altercation I made Chunk down and stay and let the owner of the pup walk his dog around mine and sniff where he wanted to. This taught my dog that he was to ignore other dogs unless threatened, we have had no other issues with his being aggressive towards other dogs unless it is a territorial stuff at the fence. 
One final note, obedience is really important and training can only help, westies just like shepherds and labs can do obedience stuff that will help her with her own aggression. It will allow her to hear your voice more clearly when she gets in one of her moods so to speak. 

Good luck

Phil


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Here's my 2c. Not that she always will, but the GSD did show restraint. You keep describing a vicious attack that could not be stopped. I have been present for a vicious attack that could not be stopped and the other animal, which was much bigger than a westie, had catastrophic injuries. I called the vet for an emergency euthanasia, but the victim regained consciousness by the time the vet could get to us. He told me "I just treated a sheep whose throat was ripped out by a panther and a little girl on that farm decided to try and save it and it survived. If you want to try and save this goat she may survive." So I did nurse her around the clock for a week straight, injections twice a day of anti inflammatory and pain killers and antibiotics. I had to massage air from under her skin where the puncture wounds went into her windpipe and she blew up like a little balloon. She had so much trauma to her head and neck from the kill bite that her eyes swelled shut and she couldn't see for 24 hrs. I had to massage that air back out through all the holes in her. She and I had the will and a good vet and she lived- (and she had a good life after that) That's what a German shepherd can do in less than a minute. That was a predatory attack vs a dog conflict but nonetheless.

Just to put it in perspective for you. It's a dangerous situation and you should heed people's advice to separate them, but I don't think the GSD needs to be called guilty of a "vicious attack". She got mad and when a big dog gets mad at a little one that's what it looks like.


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## AnnaMarie (May 17, 2021)

I also have had two females the had “no provoked” aggression. The older dog whimeriner (sp)!Baby was very calm and submissive. I then brought in a GSD female puppy. They played Baby was never rough and was submissive to her. As Bella got bigger (the GSD) she would just go nuts and attack Baby. Luckily I was able to break up each fight and yea Baby did defend herself. After the third attack that was witnessed from the beginning we kept them separated at all times and rehomed Baby.

Bella never had an issue with her breading partners, puppies or the males we kept. So again females will hold a grudge whatever it is.

I hope you take all the advice given by the experts here. Also, take in the personal stories.

you have a lot to think about and make big hard decisions to consider.

I wish you well.


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## Reptila9 (Apr 30, 2021)

ChunksDad said:


> I was reading my emails this morning and this post caught my interest. Please don't take my input as a personal criticism, I have made many mistakes with my GSD's and it is above all a learning path you are on (as am I as well). I have had 3 generations of shepherds and still find that I am learning of their character traits both genetically and personality wise. From what I have read in this forum, I have yet to read anyone making mention that your dog is part lab.. Hmmm, it sounds as though there are some definite lab traits as well, I have experienced very some serious aggression from labs as well, challenging me as well as one of my shepherds even in a neutral place. My dogs are trained to get along with other dogs by socializing and play time but always under supervision. You're right though separating seems like the only answer for an older and young dog. Even my male K9 and his mother have snips and occasionally dominant/jealousy issues. Both get sent to their respective corners for a time out (figuratively speaking lol) and the next moment they are back to playing and enjoying life. It's as if we expect perfect behavior from them.. kind of like siblings lol. The old adage about teaching old dogs new tricks certainly sounds apropos here. Your westie (if I read this correctly) is older and much more set in her ways, so a lot of work should provide changes, but I agree about getting a trainer who really understands dogs as being really important. We have used e-collars on both dogs which may stop your issue before it gets started. Once you see the lip curl and the prep work started to a fight a collar can quickly snap the dog out of it. My current female hates the collar so much that all we have to do is ask her if she wants the collar and she rethinks her current action. We are not heavy handed with her but it seems to redirect her thinking pretty well.
> This is way off on another planet but I had a similar issue with my current male K9 who when he was younger training had a super dominant 8-10 month puppy come out and declare that it was going to rule the roost. Chunk (my dog) took him down and held him down for a few seconds until he disciplined the puppy into submission. After the altercation I made Chunk down and stay and let the owner of the pup walk his dog around mine and sniff where he wanted to. This taught my dog that he was to ignore other dogs unless threatened, we have had no other issues with his being aggressive towards other dogs unless it is a territorial stuff at the fence.
> One final note, obedience is really important and training can only help, westies just like shepherds and labs can do obedience stuff that will help her with her own aggression. It will allow her to hear your voice more clearly when she gets in one of her moods so to speak.
> 
> ...


I also came across this post via Trending Posts email. I grew up with a female black lab and male chocolate lab. Male intact, female fixed at earliest appropriate age. They did not have aggression issues between each other, no scrapping. However, the female turned into a ruthless killer to any other female dogs. Unless she had an incident before 8 weeks old among her litter mates that we didn't know about, there was no incident that led to her aggression. We had to keep her separated from any females because she would immediately launch on them and go for the throat.


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

Hello! I hadn’t read this form because somehow the replies went into my spam mail. When the post was originally made I was still shaken from the incident. Since then I have been separating the girls. I do not let them alone to even go potty together. If we are in the living room we do have them together. But after reading many replies I tried to watch from a different perspective. 

Firstly the female Westie is older. She is spoiled, and as many have said gets away with a lot. This being said we haven’t had to “train” my Mix. But instead are training the Westie. As you all said she is a high content mix, and unfortunately I didn’t have experience with Labs or German Shepherds prior. Just fell in love with her. She is the sweet docile one. But she is a more insecure dog. She is very docile, and minds amazingly. The only time she shows any assertiveness is when she is protecting our home. She is very very protective of our children. She doesn’t bite, but she does bark at strangers and will leave the room if told to. She doesn’t lung or bite but she does bark. She does warm up to the people after they’ve been in the home for 5 mins or so. She remains watchful but calm and willing to sniff people. It’s hard to believe explain her personality, because she is submissive, but not fearful. I also feel I should include her history to give a better prospective. 

We got her at 6 weeks old. The owner of the mother (which is the full German Shepherd) had posted she was trying to get rid of 12 puppies as the nights were getting cold. My Irish wolfhound is old, and has already exceeded her life expectancy so we wanted to get another big dog before she passes. We decided to go look at the puppies. When we arrived on said farm we were greeted and walked out to a storage shed where the mother had dug a hole and kept her babies there. We didn’t realize this was the life the puppies had. While the mother was well Socialized it’s easy to assume the puppies were not as there was dog food thrown in a huge bowl by the entrance to the hole under the shed. All the puppies barked and scattered when they saw us except for my girl. She is walked right up to us sat in front of me and looked up at me. I always tell people, she choose me. After some discussion my husband and I decided to take her. Partly due to fear of the December weather in a Colorado mountain valley. Also because we knew we were could give her a loving warm home. 

She never cried on the way home. She looked out the window on the 45 min drive back to our town. We use to joke she was a old soul in a puppy body. She knew sit, stay, come and leave it by 9 weeks old. She is was also potty trained so quickly. She never dig damage except digging up ants in the yard (she still like to eat bugs) and chewed a few shoes. She was one of the easiest puppies I’ve ever had. While she minds us well she only gives affection when she wants to. We do respect her boundaries. She will let you pet and kiss on her, but when she’s done she leaves. Us nor the kids ever follow. She has never show aggression except for the two incidents with the female westie. 

While watching in the last month I have realized many things. She is not the issue. The westie started the incidents and she was defending herself. Regardless of the westie being the one in danger. She is left free with my male westie and my Irish wolfhound. In fact I fed them some left overs and watched her share a bowl (I put several down but they all kind of sampled each bowl) with the male westie and irish wolfhound. No one growled, nothing. I had removed the female westie from the room. I watch her lick my Irish wolfhounds jowls, and cuddle with my male westie. Again cementing in the fact the westie is the issue. I tried to decide what had changed in our life to cause a change in pack dynamics. Our Irish Wolfhound has always been the next in line after the humans in their hierarchy. 

In November my Irish wolfhound they told us was losing her eye sight (which for her age isn’t surprising). She also started acting more her age. So I think that left the pack dynamics unstable. Which while no one “challenged” for her spot under the humans, I’m thinking it was given freely. Naturally the female westie would assume she was top dog. But from watching I’ve noticed my mix now “checks” the yard and looks out the glass storm door on the front of the house. Things that were done by my Irish wolfhound. I believe that the pack hierarchy is unstable. Once my female westie is removed from the situation it seems balanced again. This being said this issue is not in the mix. But with the westie. 

I’ve owned Westies for more then half of my life. Training them is not something I’m new to. I realize my female is the way she is because I’ve allowed it. Shortly after we got her, I developed health issues (bad enough I cannot work anymore even). I did not spend the time training her the way I spent with my Westies in the past. So I have to admit I made the mistake of letting her get this way. She is set in her ways, but I am working to fix this. When I got my mix I had my health issues under control (or the best I can), so she was trained the way she should be. Which is why she is such a great girl. 

But I would like to thank those who commented. While it made me defensive initially (I felt like I had failed them both), it also helped me take a step back. The words resonated in my head. The words are what helped me see the truth and mistakes I had made. I watched my mix girl never hurt anyone , even smelled the scrape she gave the westie and check on her until she healed. It was that, and watching her with the other dogs that let me understand she was protecting herself. I am lucky there is no tension between the two in day to day. But I also am unwilling to risk my westie putting her in that situation for both of them. So my westie is never out of my sight. They are separated in any situation that may set my westie off to go after her, making her have to defend herself. I won’t say it’s been easy trying to train my westie girl. She is set in her ways and a terrier. But she does respond to commands, and that’s step one. She won’t even go out the doggy door unless I tell her she can. I do give my mix free reign of the house. But keep my westie at my side to correct her instantly. She is getting better. I’m areas she use to growl she whines (I’m sure in frustration) and is corrected and removed from the situation. She is crate trained so she is crated at night, and when I’m gone, or busy when I can’t correct her. She is far from done, and due to her nature will never have my trust to roam the house and yard as she pleases like the other dogs. 

Again thank you for the help. It opened my eyes to a situation I was ignorant to. As you all said she is a mix and that does make a difference. Any other suggestions I will gladly take and put into practice in our home.


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