# Does Anyone Seriously Find This Attractive?



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)




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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Help! I've fallen and can't get up.........


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Help! I've fallen and can't get up.........


LMAO.. 

Looks like a slide...


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Great looking dog... the handler could lose some weight.  Seriously though, sort of an extended stack, no?


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

No, that's just strange... looks like he/she has broken back legs and can no longer hold himself/herself up.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The handler needs to go to stacking school. Then we can assess the dog.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

As I said in the other thread, all the dogs from this kennel are stacked in this manner (it's icky). But....lots of it is the way they breed.









5 months

Same puppy at 8 months


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Looks like they have an aesthetic bias towards 45 degree angles. I think it's kind of cool, yet a bit extreme for exhibiting a stack.


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## chickenfingers (Feb 15, 2010)

Too much imbreeding.......how long of a life will it get before it has major hip and joint problems?


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## FLyMuSLiMa (Apr 25, 2010)

bonnysperson said:


> Too much imbreeding.......how long of a life will it get before it has major hip and joint problems?


I'm wondering the same; smh


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Where is the evidence of this causing major hip and joint problems?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The dog may or may not be inbred, but that has nothing to do with how much rear angulation a dog has. Rear angulation also has nothing to do with hip problems. Both are common misconceptions.

Though I do agree that the structure on the dog is way extreme, and being stacked like that is ridiculous. The handler definitely needs to go to stacking school....


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I think you mean inbreeding, and inbreeding has very little to do with it, from what I study. You could outcross almost everything and still get a dog that looked like that.

Health issues are not caused by inbreeding or linebreeding, they are only brought to the surface.

ETA: Chris and I posted at the same time.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

That poor shepherd!! That's NOT how they should stand.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Xeph said:


> As I said in the other thread, all the dogs from this kennel are stacked in this manner (it's icky). But....lots of it is the way they breed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is it though, stacking or breeding? How else could those dogs be stacked? IMO they are just extreme, regardless of how they are stacked. When both ends of the dog have to be supported by the handler...


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I know nothing about stacking, I'm the first to admit that.. but I look at it this way.. there is NO WAY that a dog would stand like that naturally... they WHY put them in the position? It's unnatural. Like when models stand w/ their hips so far out they look like their lower half doesn't line up... Paris Hilton... ever see her? it's awkward and uncomfortable to see and so not sexy. It's not sexy or attractive on a dog either.. sorry.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Liesje said:


> Which is it though, stacking or breeding? How else could those dogs be stacked? IMO they are just extreme, regardless of how they are stacked. When both ends of the dog have to be supported by the handler...


I agree it has to be both. I don't think I could get any of my dogs into that position, even if I put a 2 ton truck on their butts. The structure has to allow for the dog to even get into that position, but the extreme stacks they are being forced into is certainly exaggerating (and probably straining to the limit) the structure of the dogs.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Extreme stacks are distasteful, and I have a hard time seeing why other people find them attractive. 

However, don't let the stack fool you. Even an absolutely HORRIBLE stack isn't always indicative of a dog with poor structure.

Take this dog for example:










Arggggg, horrible stack! But check this out:










Same dog, standing naturally.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I always thought stacking was hard but you just make sure the front legs are straight and then extend the back leg closest to you...unless I missed something


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

atravis said:


> However, don't let the stack fool you. Even an absolutely HORRIBLE stack isn't always indicative of a dog with poor structure.
> 
> Take this dog for example:


True the stack can make structure look different than it is, but only to a point. The structure dictates how far it can get. Look at the differences here...

In your stacked photo the dog is clearly overstacked and the only way his rear is sitting that low is because that hind leg is pulled so far back it is not even close to perpendicular to the ground and the stifle almost fully extended.

Now look at the others with the hind leg perpendicular to the ground as it should be, and the stifle is dipping below the hock. That isn't just stacking, that is structure.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Don't you normally see America Line GSDs stacking like that?


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

I don't like it at all. When my dh first said he wanted to get a gsd, I said NO WAY because that's what I thought they all looked like: half a dog. I'm SO glad I learned otherwise!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

In the last pic was the dog stacked on a hill?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Don't you normally see America Line GSDs stacking like that?


Yes, usually, since that is what they're looking for in the American Show ring. 

I have no idea what is common or they're looking for in the SV ring.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> When both ends of the dog have to be supported by the handler...


I just have to say that both ends aren't being supported by the handler. The rear certainly is, but the majority of AKC handlers (regardless of breed) hold their puppies in this manner to keep their heads up.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are extremes, even in the American Showlines. This is extreme, and no, this is not always what is put up. 

We talk of working lines and German Showlines, but there seem to be more than just American lines, there are your general back yard variety, over sized dogs with little to no angles, there are the specialty dogs that seem to be a little more extreme in their angulation, and there are the dogs that compete in all breed shows that tend to be less extreme, and where some German dogs might do ok too. 

But as to the original question, no, it is not attractive, not pleasing at all, and it also hides the feet in the grass. If that is how they are advertising their dogs, well, just pass them by if you don't like it either.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't normally see Am dogs stacked like that, no. It is clearly incorrect and poor stacking.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, usually, since that is what they're looking for in the American Show ring.
> 
> I have no idea what is common or they're looking for in the SV ring.



This:
The American Sieger. I met his breeder today, he is going to the same Club I am. Did not even know that he bread the American Sieger. He told me today. 
Bill Fuerstenau


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Help! I've fallen and can't get up.........


!!!!!ROFL!!!! that just made my day!!! how funny!! poor dog looks like he is dragging him self~


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

It looks painful.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> The dog may or may not be inbred, but that has nothing to do with how much rear angulation a dog has.


Really? Can you prove that?


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> It looks painful.


very, there was a german shepherd at the dog park not to long ago who looked exactly like that, he didnt look very comfortable when he was trying to play:shocked:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The issue is *likely* to be more frustration than pain.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

It still *has *to be uncomfortable. I can't imagine walking like that as a dog.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Fast said:


> Really? Can you prove that?


Sorry I meant to quote this.



Chris Wild said:


> Rear angulation also has nothing to do with hip problems.


Is there any proof of this?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since I know Fast is just trying to be argumentative, especially after his hillbilly comment got deleted, I don't know why I'm bothering, but I will....

There are dogs with extreme rear angulation that are heavily inbred and dogs with extreme rear angulation that are the product of outcrossing. And there are heavily inbred dogs without it as well. So clearly inbreeding does not have a causal relationship to extreme rear angulation. Certainly genetics causes extreme rear angulation, but it doesn't have to be closely related genetics. Breed mother and son who don't have it, and you're not going to get it. Breed 2 dogs without any common ancestry in the past several generations who do have it, and you are going to get it. It comes down to whether the 2 dogs being bred have the genetics for extreme angulation or not, not how closely related they are.

As far as hip problems, well if extreme rear angulation led to it than the American show lines who have that sort of structure would all be horribly dysplastic, and the other bloodlines who do not would all be free and clear. Yet here is no discernable difference in hip production between the lines amongst breeders who bother to do hip certs and pay attention to it. Though of course since OFAs and such are not required for breeding in the US, as hip certs are in Germany, that opens the door for more dogs of American lines to be bred without testing and thus likely more joint problems will arise. But any increased incidence of dysplasia there is due to the lack of testing and paying attention to hip status, not the structure of the dog's hind end.

Besides, rear angulation is caused by the length and angle of the stifle (knee), not the structure of the hips. Now there is evidence that this can lead to more knee problems, including higher incidence of CCL tears, due to the structure making the dog more prone to injury. But not hip dysplasia.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have a rather extreme female that moves without effort or much ado at all. Not painful in any way. She runs, springs across the top of the picnic table and launches out into the yard. I know of many dogs that some consider extreme who do not suffer in any way well into old age.

There is a kennel I was looking at the other day. They breed dogs that would be considered fairly extreme. I saw more OFA excellent dogs listed in that one kennel than I have ever come across. Angulation is not in the hips nor does it preclude the production and maintenance of excellent hips. 

There are things that the extremity is, but there are many misconceptions and myths that it is not.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

double


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## GROVEBEAUTY (Oct 23, 2008)

I think it's a terrible lack of knowledge about how to stack a dog. I would love to see the dogs standing up square on all fours.


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## GuardianShep (Apr 19, 2010)

FuryanGoddess said:


> I know nothing about stacking, I'm the first to admit that.. but I look at it this way.. there is NO WAY that a dog would stand like that naturally... they WHY put them in the position? It's unnatural. Like when models stand w/ their hips so far out they look like their lower half doesn't line up... Paris Hilton... ever see her? it's awkward and uncomfortable to see and so not sexy. It's not sexy or attractive on a dog either.. sorry.


I too admit that i know NOTHING about stacking and honestly and personally believe, dogs should be judged on how they stand normal and not on how they are forced into a position.

the pics posted here - my first reaction was - oh mygod, the dog is under a lot of pain !!!
i dont know whether its the problem off the dog or the handler because, i dont know how to judge a dog based on how he s stacked. but, i REALLY REALLY think that someone should tell these handlers to change their style - they are really hurting the dog by extending and forcing his body into something that looks awkward. 

the irst pic resembles somthing like a creepy ghost dragging herself because her lower body got crushed by a truck


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

If lack of angulation led to excellent hips, no Labrador would have HD.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

As far as whether the stacks are correct, look at these things: Is the angle from hock to foot perpendicular to the ground? Is the "forward" rear foot the foot closest to the handler? Is that foot directly underneath the knee? Are the front legs perpendicular to the ground with the "wrists" underneath the shoulder? If so, the stack is correct. The first stack is overextended. The 2nd stack is correct.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

jebinelias said:


> I too admit that i know NOTHING about stacking and honestly and personally believe, dogs should be judged on how they stand normal and not on how they are forced into a position.


Yup... Another reason I switched from Boxers to GSDs... Ever see a Boxer stacked?? It's like setting up a tripod with one arm! That's not natural at all!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

xeph I am just shaking my head when I see that picture of the 5 month old dog. Can you imagine that dog walking?? running?? jumping?? 
you know sooner or later I predict that animal rights people are going to come in and prevent the deliberate breeding of cripples, rightly so . That includes breeds which have been taken to extreme exaggerations -- eyes no longer able to be held in eye socket, faces pushed in with no muzzles left (dentition) , dogs with deliberate achondroplasia , dysfunction on purpose . Time for a more natural dog, which the GSD should be .


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

holland said:


> In the last pic was the dog stacked on a hill?


My thought exactly. Turn that dog around and you have a different picture.


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## 1der_girl (Aug 16, 2006)

Can someone post a picture of a perfect (or near-perfect) stack, so that us novices can see a side-by-side comparison?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The bottom line is that the extreme stack type dog is the "Specialty" type of GSD in the AKC ring - the 'creme de la creme' of the breed in the US according to the Parent breed club, GSDCA, here in the US...

I have been to AKC shows, puppy matches, classes etc where the GSDs look like this, watched them move with their hocks going like little egg beaters and wonder how they hold up....as far as HD - Chris is correct - the percentages of HD are similar in the SV and the OFA - hip joint structure has nothing to do with stifle/pastern/hock assembly & angulation...wierd as that seems! What is really pathetic is that whenever I meet anyone from the general public, fancier/show people of other breeds, people in pet stores, on the street, everywhere people look at your dogs, they all say the AKC Show type dog is hideous and ugly. The only people who like this look are the show breeders/judges....I would bet money that if you pulled a half dozen pet owners - OF ANY BREED!!! - and showed them this show dog and a European working GSD, they would all prefer the European - and most would say the AKC dogs look crippled, or "have bad hips" just from the stance and walk...

It seems pretty obvious that the AKC show breeders just do not get it....the ones I have met are basically from another planet in their interpretation of the standard and desirability of type...which is a shame because the breed is just so popular and overbred in this country.

Here is a dog bred by a friend, now a stud dog at Salztalblick in Germany - and I almost bought him at 6 months old....sigh.....

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/484189.html


Lee


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Would someone tell me what the point of the stack is?? I don't get it at all. I personally think it looks ridiculous no matter how perfect it is done. Why can't you just have the dog stand nicely with all four feet under him? What is the point of making them looking all sloped and angulated like that?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

DharmasMom said:


> Would someone tell me what the point of the stack is?? I don't get it at all. I personally think it looks ridiculous no matter how perfect it is done. Why can't you just have the dog stand nicely with all four feet under him? What is the point of making them looking all sloped and angulated like that?


The stack is like the sprinter's start for a race. The wieght of the dog is on his front legs, and with one rear leg under him to help support the weight, it is easy to start his forward motion by lifting the rear leg that is farther back. Even for a person it is easier to start moving if one leg is in front of the other rather than with both feet holding equal weight.





































On a side note, all of the above dogs (except for the puppy) are OFA good hips and many of them have performance titles also.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

*Does Anyone Seriously Find This Attractive?*

*I don't!*


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DharmasMom said:


> Would someone tell me what the point of the stack is?? I don't get it at all. I personally think it looks ridiculous no matter how perfect it is done. Why can't you just have the dog stand nicely with all four feet under him? What is the point of making them looking all sloped and angulated like that?


GSDs tend to stand that way naturally for the reasons Andaka posted. Obviously the 1st picture posted in this thread is very extreme, but if you look at the first couple of pics Andaka showed, my GSDs stand like that all the time because it's easier to move in any direction. How often do you stand squarely with your feet totally square under your shoulders?


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

While this dog is clearly way too streched out, I think it is an attractive dog. Some people think that GSD's with light eyes are attractive , I don't , Some people think a "gay" tail doesn't distract from the look of the dog I do , some people think a roach is fine ect... I am not to judge , as long as the dog is sound of mind and body we all should be able to enjoy the look of the dog we like without reproach. I do NOT condone breeding unhealthy , untitled , un proven dogs or Bitches.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The only people who like this look are the show breeders/judges....I would bet money that if you pulled a half dozen pet owners - OF ANY BREED!!! - and showed them this show dog and a European working GSD, they would all prefer the European - and most would say the AKC dogs look crippled, or "have bad hips" just from the stance and walk...


Then perhaps you wouldn't believe the large number of people that pass my little bitch and I at a show that state how beautiful she is, and they love they way she gaits? Maybe it's because though she is a bit extreme for my tastes, she is still functional, and is clean coming and going.

They will comment on dogs more extreme than mine, but I have lots of people stopping me when I have Mirada out to tell me how pretty she is, and where could they get one like her.

The number of people that think she's GERMAN bred is staggering. The number of people that think Strauss is American is also mind boggling.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Well - there are alot of people into the show dogs at shows! Apparently they like Xeph's dog, and the ones that don't like that dog liked my Danger, Kyra, Ghost and Basha! Enough people for me to realize that the show people are the people who like the show dogs LOL LOL

Lee


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> Well - there are alot of people into the show dogs at shows! Apparently they like Xeph's dog, and the ones that don't like that dog liked my Danger, Kyra, Ghost and Basha! Enough people for me to realize that the show people are the people who like the show dogs LOL LOL
> 
> Lee


:rofl:
:thumbup:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Enough people for me to realize that the show people are the people who like the show dogs LOL LOL


I wasn't talking about show people...I was talking about spectators that went to the show because "Oh we saw it was nearby and wanted to see!"

Or the people that we pass on the street, or at Petsmart, or that see us working on obedience at the park.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

I do not know of anyone that doesn’t respond with a "what the heck is wrong with that dog", outside of the American show world. People see Jaina and their responses are WOW what a beautiful dog, she must be a different type", my response is always she is just a German Shepherd the way they should be. They always agree and always ask what is the purpose of the “crazy look” of the American show German shepherd, the only response I can give them is "the flying trot" as I don't understand why either.


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## ZebsMommy (Dec 4, 2010)

I looks like mine when he stretches after a nap!


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Then perhaps you wouldn't believe the large number of people that pass my little bitch and I at a show that state how beautiful she is, and they love they way she gaits?





> Or the people that we pass on the street, or at Petsmart, or that see us working on obedience at the park.


I used to get the same comments about Abby and get the same comments about Ronja. I don't think the comments of random people who want to come up and pet your dog really mean a whole lot, especially considering most of them don't even know what an "extreme" and a not-extreme dog is. Heck, most of them didn't recognize Abby as a German Shepherd and still thought she was very pretty.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> As I said in the other thread, all the dogs from this kennel are stacked in this manner (it's icky). But....lots of it is the way they breed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mostly in the stack. I could pull my dog into that stretch but you would never know it to see her in a natural unaffected stance.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

So clearly only "show people" can appreciate the look of a show bred dog. Those people we meet on the street don't mean a darn thing  Never would the average person like the look of my Am line girl.

BTW, while I don't really care for the above breeding program, that puppy definitely looks better at 8 months.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> So clearly only "show people" can appreciate the look of a show bred dog. Those people we meet on the street don't mean a darn thing  Never would the average person like the look of my Am line girl.


I would appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth. All I said was that the opinions of random people on the street are not relevant when it comes to making a point about any lines on this thread because people just like dogs and will say nice things about your dog regardless of how extreme (or not) the dog is. I'm sure lots of people with way oversized dogs also get comments on how nice their dogs look and how well they gait. It's just what they like seeing, so they comment on it. It doesn't make a point either way about a dog's good or bad conformation or breeding.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

No! Look! People on the street think his dog looks good! Must be breed worthy!

Show breeders are bad for the breed. Plain and simple.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

rvadog said:


> No! Look! People on the street think his dog looks good! Must be breed worthy!
> 
> Show breeders are bad for the breed. Plain and simple.


that was a joke right?


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Xeph said:


> So clearly only "show people" can appreciate the look of a show bred dog. Those people we meet on the street don't mean a darn thing  Never would the average person like the look of my Am line girl.
> 
> BTW, while I don't really care for the above breeding program, that puppy definitely looks better at 8 months.


clearly everyone has their preference for a "look" of a GSD, for some reason it seems we who have am bred shepherds get the most heat. I tend to just ignore people who cannot see any value in any type except theirs. Like you, I own am bred dogs ,very moderate very sound and very beautiful. Unfortunately, most people post the extremes of all, roach backed German show line dogs & extreme angled am bred dogs, I think with the purpose of starting arguments (I cannot see any other reason). I appreciate all types of GSD's. I could argue that what people have termed Working bred dogs have bad tail sets, pointed ears, light eyes and males with bitchy heads, but that is just me looking at a small example of them. I am sure their are "working", I use the term lightly as I believe my am bred dogs have the drive and ability to work sheep , excel at obedience, rally, tracking SAR ect...,that have nice eyes, tail sets , masculine heads ect..


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If that was serious I don't agree with that at all. Don't think show breeders are bad for the breed at all-think people have their preferences. Right now I am taking a show handling class with my working line-and I'm loving it so is she. It is taught by a gsd show line breeder. He makes the class fun and shares his knowledge of showing and we have never been made to feel uncomfortable because she is a working line dog. working lines are still my preference but there are working line dogs that I don't find attractive so???


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

*"Does Anyone Seriously Find This Attractive?"*



LaRen616 said:


>


No, not at all. Looks *ridiculous* .


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes,it is a ridiculous attempt to stack a dog correctly.

Scroll down this page and see note how bad stacking alters the appearance...

Conformation


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

rvadog said:


> No! Look! People on the street think his dog looks good! Must be breed worthy!
> 
> Show breeders are bad for the breed. Plain and simple.


Shows are not bad for the breed, but show breeders... I agree.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Intresting to see that stack hides weak toplines....


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> No! Look! People on the street think his dog looks good! Must be breed worthy!


Do NOT put words in my mouth, as that is NOT what I said.

What I do not care for is that people state that average people do not care for the look of show dogs, and when I mention that several people "off the street" or in Petsmart or whatever DO think my dog is beautiful, it is dismissed and that THOSE people are not average people or dog owners. Yeah, highly disagree. Don't think you can get any more average than "Oh! I didn't know they came in that color!"

Not knowing the difference in types...that would be the norm. So that argument that people not knowing the difference between German and American doesn't make my example valid is a false one.

Whether people like it or not, there ARE dog owners in the world that don't know about training, don't know about dog shows, and couldn't tell a Chihuahua from a Jack Russell that think show bred GSDs are beautiful. And those are the average people.



> All I said was that the opinions of random people on the street are not relevant when it comes to making a point about any lines on this thread because people just like dogs and will say nice things about your dog regardless of how extreme (or not) the dog is.


I disagree that it's not relevant. There is NO REASON for a person to approach ME and tell me how pretty or beautiful my dog is if they don't mean it. I don't take her over to people and ask them to compliment her.

People that "just like dogs" are AVERAGE people, and when people on the thread are claiming that average people don't care for show lines, that is a falsehood.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Xeph said:


> People that "just like dogs" are AVERAGE people, and when people on the thread are claiming that average people don't care for show lines, that is a falsehood.


No one is lying here Xeph!!!! Just because people approach you and like your dog does not mean everyone else is lying! 

Having been attending AKC shows for well over a dozen years, training adn trialing working dogs for the same time....it is NOT A FALSEHOOD Xeph. It is my _*experience *_- when taking a nice working line dog who is stable, social and good looking like Danger, or Kyra or Csabre out in public...the *general public average people who talk to me *- without exception - make comments regarding the "slinky", the "broken back dragging hind legs" and other negative type comments about the GSDs they have seen on the big shows on TV, or at a show they went as a spectator, they see them here and there and the ones that approach ME with my working line dogs do so because they want to know more about the alternative. At any given AKC show I get approached by exhibitors of OTHER breeds who are heartened that there are still GSDs who are not the show type.....One breeder (and her husband) that I know - of Beagles - a breeder who has been to Westminister many times - greatly admires my GSDs and finds those in the showring appalling....this is my attorney and his wife. Been in the AKC ring for 40+ years - trust me, there are many many many dog people who find the show ring dog NOT appealing at all......

So there are people who like the show lines - we all know that - that is why they are still being produced! 

And there are just average people who like dogs - period....that is why there are so many backyard breeders, so many dogs being produced and sold and abandoned when those average people who think they want a GSD decide they don't like the hair, the nerves, the whatever that makes them dump those dogs....

No one is lying here....seriously.

Lee


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And reality is in the mind of the (be)thinker.
People will always disagree and waste their time and angst trying to get others
to see things their way.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Catu, I think your point is missed by so many people.....there is nothing wrong with Shows, the German Shepherd is a working dog created to work and there are some top working dogs that have excellent structure to go along with their working ability and by all means people should show them if they desire. BUT, breeders should not BREED just for show because it diminishes the working capability everytime and thus no longer makes a German Shepherd a German Shepherd. Its not really complicated. Nothing wrong with shows, imo.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Andaka said:


>


These two dogs are what I think of when I think "nice" GSD as far as structure goes. So are these American SL or something else?? (I can see they're in the ring which makes me think AM SL but maybe not?)


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They're American Showlines, though I believe Daphne's new boy is part DDR


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> No one is lying here....seriously.


Don't recall saying anybody was, I just get sick of people acting like nobody cares for show lines, as clearly some people do. I get comments on both of my dogs, and Strauss is obviously less angulated than Mirada is. Some prefer him, some prefer her. To date, I've not have anybody call her "slinky" or any other such things.

In any case, I'm done arguing.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

it is not so great when breeding becomes unbalanced. That happens in many arenas and there are pressures there to win that can result in the loss of certain aspects as others get emphasis. I have show dogs. I see no problem with an assessment of their deficits that have resulted from long term breeding trends. 

When key basic components are lost, like nerve, it is a diifficult situation.

Many show dogs are not that wacky two piece dysfunctional rear that used to be popular. I see very little of it so I know it is not what people should be concerned about. There are people in the fancy who bemoan the passing of that extremity...ugh. There are some pretty physically functional dogs out there, though certainly bred for a more outreaching gait.

Nerve and temperament are the next hurdle. That is also improved, but much more needs to done.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Catu said:


> Shows are not bad for the breed, but show breeders... I agree.


I agree as well. I really enjoy dog shows....but the conformation extremes in the GSDs are unsettling to me, so I stick to daydreaming about all the other breeds, and try to figure out what I would train if it wasn't going to be a GSD????

Just went to a show a couple of weeks ago and I am falling in love with Vallhunds!!! Not going to get one, but you know, just what if I could take the SchH field with my Vallhund at my side??? Would be a hoot.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like those Valhunds. An aquaintance of mine has one. Cute dog.

I was eyeing a Pyr Shep at my last show.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok my view for what its worth,,the first pic of that puppy was awful, I do think it looked much better at 8 months, tho still to extreme for me.

I like Daphne's dogs, they are not extreme , she does REALLY well in the show ring and her dogs WORK also...and that's the type of am line I like.

Unfortunately I also hear alot of 'oh my's' from John Q Public on the sidelines of the show rings Mostly from ones who also think angulation means bad hips and extreme is crippled. 

I once was watching the gsd's at an all breed show, standing there with my squarer than square, long legged, lanky, rescue girl, I had more bystanders compliment me on her and were asking why I wasn't showing her? I almost busted a gut laughing, but didn't because they were quite serious and were appalled at what they were seeing.

I found that to be so very very sad Not because there were 'awful' dogs in the ring, but because there were some really lovely lovely dogs but JQP didn't see it and liked my rescue better. 

**Just want to add, I wouldn't have traded that dog for all the dogs in the ring,,it was her brains that got me and I loved her to death


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## GuardianShep (Apr 19, 2010)

Andaka said:


> The stack is like the sprinter's start for a race. The wieght of the dog is on his front legs, and with one rear leg under him to help support the weight, it is easy to start his forward motion by lifting the rear leg that is farther back. Even for a person it is easier to start moving if one leg is in front of the other rather than with both feet holding equal weight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The first dog - what I think

the closest match to the ideal. right angulation (even though it might not be exactly 22.7degrees and such)

holds his head high - defenitely gives me the look of a self composed proud look, ears sharp,erect and alert

coat - super

i would say - NOT ROACH BACKED 

his head structure - i see beauty in the face setting

if he is good tempered, healthy, active, hips xrayed and certified, i cant find a reason not to breed him to a bitch of the same elegant look...

and lastly, the one who bred him - deserves the praise - for carefully selecting the right pair

I love all the four dogs

THANK YOU ANDAKA for showing us this 4 WONDERFUL dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the first pic is of Daphne's Tag, who has passed All of Daphnes dogs are not just 'show' dogs, she does herding, obedience, agility,,so her dogs are very very versatile in my opinion and I wouldn't mind owing one)


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Samba said:


> I like those Valhunds. An aquaintance of mine has one. Cute dog.
> 
> I was eyeing a Pyr Shep at my last show.


 I'd like to have a Pyrshep some day. I have seen quite a lot of them over the years and even have been to one of their pre-AKC Nationals performance day. They are neat little dogs but their temperament is a bit different and probably wouldn't appeal the masses. I've known of several agility people who got them and didn't care for working with them. I do worry that their uniqueness (in looks and temperament) will be lost as they become more popular show dogs though. The breed is already getting quite a bit of notice in group and they are still pretty new. Notice in the group and BIS levels tends to be what makes breeds competitive show dogs and IMO it seems that becoming competitive show dogs is what tends to led towards breeding for extremes. 

An interesting side note, show Border Collies have been selected for a very different look from working BCs. They are fluffier, rounder headed, shorter muzzled and heavier boned. And according to the parent club's outgoing president and the parent club's herding committee chair in their recent newsletter, losing the traits that make BCs unique. From the outgoing president: "It is important that we continue to produce Border Collies that not only have the instinct and desire to herd but also have ability as well as the things that make a dog a Border Collie. It isn't enough to produce dogs that can move sheep around an arena -- any herding breed dog can do that. We need to preserve the unique Border Collie traits -- the crouch, the innate ability to rate livestock, the eye, the ability to make the right decision on its own. And we need to remember that the Border Collie should excel at open field work -- the B Course -- not the arena. At the recent National Specialty, there were a lot of dogs, especially in the tests and lower levels, that looked more like other herding breeds in their working style." And the herding chair, in response to the heridng events at the National: "It must be noted that, as the years have gone by, fewer and fewer dogs participating demonstrated the traditional postures and eye thought of as working Border Collies. There was an increase in continued upright postures, elevated straight tails, barking and excessive excitement or lack of interest altogether. Some of these things may change with constant exposure to livestock, but the basic posturing of the dog usually stays consistent with that dog."

As far as GSDs go, I haven't met too many pet people or other dog people who like the look of the extreme angulation. They are out there but IME most people who aren't involved with showing GSDs have negative opinions about the look. In the minds of many people, GSDs as a whole are ruined because of it. Of course, they don't say it to the dog's owners. You can be sure though, when GSDs are walking around shows that look like the dogs in the first post on this thread, there are a lot of whispered comments. I had a few people ask me directly about my more extreme Amline boy - "does he have bad hips" seemed to be most common but I know enough to know most people didn't prefer his look to my girls (one German show and one "old fashioned" Amline ). People were however, impressed with his size and color however. A lot of pet people also asked me if he was German or said they could tell he was because he was tall and dark LOL And because of that, he had a lot of offers to breed "Heidi" or "Princess" and I could even have the pick of the litter


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

My dogs both do that. Usually right after getting up from a nap


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think the first pic is of Daphne's Tag, who has passed All of Daphnes dogs are not just 'show' dogs, she does herding, obedience, agility,,so her dogs are very very versatile in my opinion and I wouldn't mind owing one)


Actually, I believe the first picture is of Daphne's bitch, Doll. Tag is the 3rd pictured dog. His son Jag, a show line x DDR pup, is the dog in the 2nd picture. I forgot who the last dog is, sorry!

Beautiful dogs Daphne.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you could be right! Seeing Daphnes dogs all together, confuses me They are all pretty consistent in type and gorgeous nonetheless


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## jkscandi50 (Nov 17, 2010)

Limbo anyone?? Sing along - "How Low Can You Go!!"


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> ... I don't think I could get any of my dogs into that position, even if I put a 2 ton truck on their butts. The structure has to allow for the dog to even get into that position, but the extreme stacks they are being forced into is certainly exaggerating (and probably straining to the limit) the structure of the dogs.


Same here - - - the steep degree of angulation and overwhelming cow hock condition that you see in the American blood lines is sad.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Rei said:


> Actually, I believe the first picture is of Daphne's bitch, Doll. Tag is the 3rd pictured dog. His son Jag, a show line x DDR pup, is the dog in the 2nd picture. I forgot who the last dog is, sorry!
> 
> Beautiful dogs Daphne.


The last picture is of Keno, who was Tag and Doll's sire, and Jag's grandsire.

Thanks for all of the compliments. We have tried hard to create a dog that both wins in the show ring and can do "stuff" with the owner too. Obedience and herding are my favorites.


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## erin_1977 (Mar 7, 2011)

:crazy: kinda wondering why she has her dog up on the kitchen counter?? Hope she disinfects before fixing dinner!


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

The first one was a sable coat yes? It looks like the coyotes around here


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## Bomber (Dec 20, 2010)

I think it makes the dog look hurt or like its trying to pee while its hurt.....looks dumb.


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