# Help!! White smelly discharge after 1st heat...pyrometra??



## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

Help! My 10 month old puppy just ended her 1st heat cycle about 5-6 days ago. About 3 days ago I noticed a milky white vaginal discharge, but I am new to the whole heat cycle thing, so figured it could be normal after heat. Well today after we got home from our training session, Zelda brushed her rear against me while sitting on the couch and WHOA...the smell was putrid. Upon further inspection, I determined the foul smell was coming from the vaginal discharge. So, I call the vet on post and explain her symptoms....they suggest she be seen right away, but didn't have any appointments available. So I contacted a civilian vet and brought her in. 

The vet tech lifted her tail to take her temp and was like...yea, I definitely notice the odor!! So they ran blood tests, and took X-rays. Everything came back normal, but he said it could still possibly be pyometra, so I need to keep a close eye on her. He suggested spaying her right there on the spot, but I wasn't ready to make such a big decision like that, so he gave her an injection of antibiotics and sent us home with antibiotics. 

She has been acting lethargic lately, but she was fairly lethargic the whole time she was in heat, so I figured that was the cause. She is eating ok, not as excited about food as she usually is, but she still eats. She has been drinking a lot of water, but before today, it has been super hot here. She is only 10 months old, and this is her first heat cycle, and it's only been 5 days since her cycle ended. Isn't it a little early for pyo? Or should I be worried??


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if the vet suggested spaying then spay her 
it might save her life


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Do a search and call a boarded reproduction vet. We have treated Pyo medically, if it's open. But I would get a second opinion. If he counts are normal and her temp is normal, then I would get another opinion. 

That said. If you have no plans on breeding her, then spaying is an alternative. 

Also, it could be a bad UTI. Take in some urine and have it checked. All the licking they do during heat could have introduced a bacteria. The holes are close together.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> She has been acting lethargic lately


this is never a good sign
i would not let this drag on 
as gsd said get a 2nd opinion or do the spay but get a decision made quickly
a pyo can kill quickly
if a uti that can cause kidney damage if left untreated
either way lethargy is a cause for concern


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

Thanks so much for your help! I think I should go ahead and have her spayed. I really wanted to wait until she was 2, but I don't want her intact if it is going to pose a health risk to her. She's my baby, I don't know what I would do if something happened to her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Please go to a 24 hour clinic with a reproductive department. The last thing you want to do to your puppy is to spay her if she has an infection. You want to get the infection under control first. 

With closed pyometra it is an emergency and spaying can be the only thing they can do. I am not sure about their not having any other means of treating. Closed pyometra has no discharge. The organ fills with pus, and it bursts, and it will kill the dog. Your dog does not have this. 

Open pyometra has discharge. And it is possible. Usually you will see a high temperature as well changes in bloodwork. If that came back normal, then it is less likely that this is the issue. The best thing to do is to see a reproductive vet that will diagnose this definitely or diagnose something else. Spaying your bitch when the anal glands are infected would not just not help, but it is dangerous to operate when there is an infection.

The lethargy can be increased by the medication. Again, without knowing what your dog's problem is, I wonder why they are giving antibiotics. 

If the repro-vet does say your dog has pyometra, you do not have to spay. They can give you some options, though I understand that once a bitch has had it, it is likely to reoccur. Evenso, I would treat with antibiotics and get the infection under control first, and then I would spay. For this, I would spay, even though in general, I am against it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Agreed. You could consider partial spay; just removing the uterus. That's my plan for Deja after her second heat. Sooner if a problem like yours arises.
Good luck. Please keep us updated. This is my first intact female in decades.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

why would you not spay a dog w/pyo since all vets recommend it 

Pyometra: More Than a Uterine Infection

*The preferred traditional treatment for pyometra is spaying.*

Pyometra: The Expensive, Emergency Spay | petMD

*while medical management has been reported, I never recommend it; after all, the problem will just reoccur. Ideally, surgical removal of the pus-filled uterus is necessary.*

_none_ of the sites _recommend_ waiting if a dog has pyo
this is because the uterus has a huge blood supply and if not addressed the infection can go systemic which can cause sepsis or septic shock


Pet Health Resources | Disease | Pyometra in Dogs | University Animal Hospital

*Pyometra is an infection in the uterus. It is serious and life threatening condition that must be treated promptly and aggressively.*

wolfy dog no offense but that makes no sense at all to "just remove the uterus" since that is a spay surgery and selzer seems to think (despite all the vets recommending otherwise) a spay is not necessary


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is absolutely not something to wait around on. It sounds like you may have caught it in the early stages. You do not want it to progress further. Get a definitive diagnosis and then go ahead with the spay, as recommended by your vet.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I went round with Raina having pyrometra when she was just past a year old. She kept getting minor infections prior to that from licking which we treated with antibiotics but when she actually got pyro I straight out asked my vet what he would do if it were his dog. He recommended spaying, but after the infection was cleared up. She did not have closed pyro but had a discharge like your girl. She was spayed a few weeks after dosing with antibiotics and did fine. I was disappointed because we had planned on one litter prior to spaying and even had the sire picked out as well as more than enough buyers for pups. Everyone was ready for a litter that was to be when she hit two years old but even though I did everything right it wasn't meant to be. Listen to your vet. Find out if it is actually pyro and if it is then spaying is the only way.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> wolfy dog no offense but that makes no sense at all to "just remove the uterus" since that is a spay surgery and selzer seems to think (despite all the vets recommending otherwise) a spay is not necessary


If you remove the uterus there is no longer the risk of pyometra but the ovaries will still produce the hormones that I would like to preserve in my dog (for now)


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> If you remove the uterus there is no longer the risk of pyometra but the ovaries will still produce the hormones that I would like to preserve in my dog (for now)


Not true, you can still get a "stump pyometra" because it's difficult to get/know that you got all uterine tissue. I will never do this surgery for anyone. Also I am way more worried about mammary cancer than I personally am about pyometra. I have had very few dogs die from pyometra and every one of them was sick for days to weeks and not taken care of in a timely fashion. Malignant mammary cancer is very difficult to treat and can sneak up on us.
There are many false statements in this thread. 
I have never seen pyometra in such a young animal (not the same as saying it doesn't occur) what causes pyometra takes multiple heat cycles and occurs a while after a heat cycle, not during or right after. 
Probably just vaginitis or premature vuvla, possible UTI. So many vets want to spay everything that walks in the door ASAP.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well if they suspected an early pyo wouldn't spaying be the best solution??


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> well if they suspected an early pyo wouldn't spaying be the best solution??


If that is the diagnosis and not just some sort of suspicion because they can't find the real answer. I would need to know WHY they suspect that. Just smelly discharge from vulva is not good enough. The whole thing doesn't fit for me based on what the OP has posted. Maybe get a second IRL opinion. I don't rush to spay dogs in general.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

youd think bloodwork would have showed something but then again it is suspicious as the dog had just had a heat
guessing that is where their minds were headed


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ugavet2012 said:


> I don't rush to spay dogs in general.


Agreed that I am not a vet so my question to you as a prof. vet is what do you recommend for female dogs and when in their life cycle and why? It is a very tough decision for me. I hear so many different ideas.
Thanks for helping us understand.


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

First of all I just want to thank everyone for their responses, I love this forum! 



ugavet2012 said:


> I have never seen pyometra in such a young animal (not the same as saying it doesn't occur) what causes pyometra takes multiple heat cycles and occurs a while after a heat cycle, not during or right after.
> Probably just vaginitis or premature vuvla, possible UTI. So many vets want to spay everything that walks in the door ASAP.


This was my concern as well. When I said the vet suggested I have her spayed while we were there yesterday, I guess I should have been more specific. His tone wasn't exactly urgent, it was more or less...well since we don't know what it is, might as well spay her just in case. And the last thing I wanted to do was have her spayed just because we might as well. Also, like someone mentioned, if she does have an infection, surgery could be more risky. 

So here is an update...like I said, she was given an injection of antibiotics yesterday. When we got home from the vet she slept for about two hours before we headed to her group class training (I asked the vet if it would be ok if I too her, and he said that would be fine, there was no reason I shouldn't take her). She did great during class, and when we came home she played with my daughter for a while. Later in the evening I crated her while I left to take my husband dinner at work. We got home around 9 pm, and when I let her out of her crate, she had more energy than I had seen in her in a while. I thought I was just crazy, and that her sudden burst of energy was all in my head just because I didn't want her to be sick or have pyo. This morning I was joyfully woken up by crazy Zelda kisses all over my face, followed by that 65 pound pup jumping right on top of me. She seems to have significantly more energy today than she has for the past few days. So I decided to check to see (well smell) if the foul odor was still there. I literally bent down to smell her and there was a faint smell, but NOTHING like it was yesterday. I haven't noticed any discharge today. She is still licking down there though (not as much as she was before), so that could be the reason I haven't noticed. 

So as of today, I am torn on whether or not I should have her spayed. Also, I don't want to get my hopes up that she doesn't have pyo because it seems a little crazy that just 24 hours after 1 injection of antibiotics, she seems to be feeling better. However, the ONLY reason they even suspected it could be pyometra was the discharge with the smell and lethargy. Everything else seemed to NOT fit a pyo diagnosis. Normal bloodwork, normal X-ray, no fever, her age (10 months), first heat cycle, and only 5 days after her cycle.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ugavet- thanks for your post. Great to have information from someone who actually works in the veterinary field. Question- with mammary cancer in people some studies find that nursing a baby and pregnancy can help reduce the incidence of breast cancer. Have you found any correlation in dogs? That is, does having a litter reduce a female dog's risk of mammary cancer? 

Also, from what I've read, spaying doesn't reduce mammary cancer risk after around 3 heat cycles. True?

Partial spay doesn't make much sense to me, for a number of reasons- most of these based on my familiarity with the human reproductive system- so I could certainly be wrong. The ovaries and uterus both produce hormones that "talk" to each other. Taking out just the uterus could throw things wacky, plus I'd imagine you could still have strange heat cycles, and also still have that mammary cancer risk. 

All or nothing (complete spay or complete neuter), in my opinion- for both males and females. 

The first heat cycles can produce behavior and mood changes in female dogs, I've seen it. I wouldn't overly worry unless these continue well past the end of standing heat. In the case of the OP, I'd give the antibiotics and hold off on spaying for now- but please go with your vet's advice because he's seen the dog and is familiar with the case. I would recommend spaying her in future, because she's probably prone to problems related to heat cycles, and if she's 10 months now, she only "needs" one more heat cycle to get whatever benefit she might from the hormones and growth. Spaying after the infection clears and before her next heat cycle might be a good plan.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the site i looked up said if its a pyo it will recur because of a glitch in the bitch's system
i am glad she is better


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> why would you not spay a dog w/pyo since all vets recommend it  *Because, as Ugavet has also mentioned, some vets are spay crazy. In my experience, some vets stop looking for other reasons, when they find the bitch is intact -- oh, it must be pyo, spay her. A pup of mine, that was in her new home had a bowel obstruction and the ER was all for spaying her when they found she was intact, the owner called me, and I told her where to take her to get a real diagnosis. It was NOT pyro, and the bitch is fine, because we did not go with what that vet recommended. *
> 
> Pyometra: More Than a Uterine Infection
> 
> ...


*From the symptoms the OP provided, I did not and do not believe a spay is indicated. I am not a vet. So I suggested she go to a vet whose specialty is the organs that seem to be acting up. I am afraid that so much general practice is wrapped up with owners who have spayed/neutered their animals as youngsters, as recommended by their vets, that your neighborhood veterinarian really doesn't necessarily have as much experience with intact bitch problems. Of course they have seen the horror stories, where the yayhoo sees their dog is on death's door and finally decides to drag her to the vet, but open and closed pyometra has symptoms and if the bitch is seen promptly, by a competent veterinarian, it can be diagnosed and treated. 


*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> the site i looked up said if its a pyo it will recur because of a glitch in the bitch's system
> i am glad she is better


This bitch most likely does not have pyo. She is very young. And it was directly after her heat cycle. So it is very unlikely that this is the problem. It is more likely she has some puppy vaginitis that the antibiotics are clearing up.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> Ugavet- thanks for your post. Great to have information from someone who actually works in the veterinary field. Question- with mammary cancer in people some studies find that nursing a baby and pregnancy can help reduce the incidence of breast cancer. Have you found any correlation in dogs? That is, does having a litter reduce a female dog's risk of mammary cancer?
> 
> Also, from what I've read, spaying doesn't reduce mammary cancer risk after around 3 heat cycles. True?
> 
> ...


I never ever read anything or experienced anything to suggest having a litter reduces chances of breast cancer In pets. 

Here is my take on when to spay.......I stress this is my OPINION only, based on experience as both a pet owner and vet, and science as well. This is what I do for MY personal female dogs. So the literature tells us that supposedly there is no benefit in reduction of mammary cancer if spaying after 3 heat cycles. We all want to wait for our animals to "mature" before spaying. So where is the magic number of years or months? Well it depends on the dog. 

My GSD I had every intention of spaying before 3 heat cycles, essentially allowing her to go through 2, so whatever age that ended up being, which I figured for us would be fairly close to 2 years. That was not so. She had her first cycle around 10-11 months, then cycled every 2-3 months after that. Every time I thought we were good to go and she was out of heat, since it was important to me to spay OUT of heat, she was going back in. I would say she had 3-4 cycles before I threw my hands up and just scheduled it but decided to have it done at the vet school where she would have all the fancy monitoring. She was between 18-24 months old. 
This exact senario occurred with my Yorkie too. Now they are 3-4 yrs apart in age and I raised them in totally different states and they ate different food, etc so I think it was just coincidence, not something in my environment or that I did. Do I worry they could get breast cancer? Yes all the time, so I make sure to feel the glands religiously. 
HOWEVER, nearly every mammary tumor (all except 1 I can think of) I have seen, which has been a fairly high number (remember I work at a very high volume clinic--we have 15000 clients and add new every day, 90%+ of them have multiple pets), has been in a still intact female, over 7-8 yrs old, who has gone through quite a number of heat cycles. So therefore I feel relatively ok that my females went through so many cycles, I still think that their chances of breast cancer are lower than if they were still intact. Is that exactly what the literature says? Nope, but with my practical experience so far I feel I am ok. 

I will point out that I cannot deal with an intact female long term. My GSD bled heavily and smelled disgusting; I couldn't even be around her. The whole thing was a ginormous mess. 

There is also some thought that having a female who is overweight by 1 year old has increased risk.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you ugavet!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ugavet2012 said:


> I will point out that I cannot deal with an intact female long term. My GSD bled heavily and smelled disgusting; I couldn't even be around her. The whole thing was a ginormous mess.


Can you elaborate on the odor, please. Or pm me more details? Please. I do not want to derail this thread, but I have a 4 year old female who cannot be spayed and her last heat was accompanied by a putrid odor, loss of appetite and vomiting. Vet was unable to find a cause.

Sorry for interrupting this very informative thread.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Can you elaborate on the odor, please. Or pm me more details? Please. I do not want to derail this thread, but I have a 4 year old female who cannot be spayed and her last heat was accompanied by a putrid odor, loss of appetite and vomiting. Vet was unable to find a cause.
> 
> Sorry for interrupting this very informative thread.


It was like a rotten dirty fishy smell. It would stink up the entire room she was in. Not like infection/pus smell.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ugavet2012 said:


> It was like a rotten dirty fishy smell. It would stink up the entire room she was in. Not like infection/pus smell.


Yup, thats the smell but it seems to come from her skin, centered around her shoulders. It's bad enough to make me debate getting her spayed. My eyes water.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

selzer said:


> This bitch most likely does not have pyo. She is very young. And it was directly after her heat cycle. So it is very unlikely that this is the problem. It is more likely she has some puppy vaginitis that the antibiotics are clearing up.


i am glad you can diagnose a dog over the internet when not having seen it
but i am pretty sure the vet in this case is on to something
the op even stated that the dog got more active after the shot so _something _was going on

the indicators for the most part seemed to point to an early pyo
i have seen your posts enough to know you are anti spay/neuter but in this case you might cause a dog to die because of your stance

for people reading this thread 
i would suggest listening to your vet who went to school to take care of animals rather than internet forum junkies :shrug:

keeping in mind the person who went to school is the one who actually saw the dog which nobody on the internet has seen


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> for people reading this thread
> i would suggest listening to your vet who went to school to take care of animals rather than internet forum junkies :shrug:
> 
> keeping in mind the person who went to school is the one who actually saw the dog which nobody on the internet has seen


I definitely am not relying on this forum to make a potentially life altering decision for Zelda. I just wanted to know other people's opinions or experiences with similar situations. That being said, I also find it a little ridiculous to rely on someone (the vet) who did not feel overly confident about a diagnosis. Yes, he actually "saw" her, but visually she was normal. He had never seen her before, so had nothing to compare to. 

I am going to try to have her seen tomorrow by a vet on post for a second opinion.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

good plan!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

GOOD LUCK WITH YOU VET'S APPOINTMENT TODAY ... HOPE THEY CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT'S WRONG AND THAT IT'S NOTHING SERIOUS!!!

There are a lot of articles, studies and miscellation information out there about spay/neuter and connected health concerns. These two articles are written by Dr. Karen Becker, but there are others if you do a Google search.
Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs
Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure

Personally I've been getting my males vascetomies. If/when I get another bitch I'd investigate a tubal ligation or removal of her uterus which hopefully would not affect her hormone production (????).


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Last I checked this thread is not about the spay / neuter debate.

OP.....get a diagnosis and go from there.....you will not get a diagnosis here. If the diagnosis requires a spay ......spay her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> i am glad you can diagnose a dog over the internet when not having seen it
> but i am pretty sure the vet in this case is on to something
> the op even stated that the dog got more active after the shot so _something _was going on
> 
> ...


MBD, I basically said the same things the vet on this thread said -- about the bitch being young -- pyo tends to hit bitches after several heat cycles, usually older bitches. And, that the problem hit directly after a heat cycle -- pyo takes a little time after the heat to build in there and become infected. It is NOT following a normal pattern for pyometra, and spaying a bitch who has an infection that is not pyo, can actually be dangerous.

If all the vets out there were diligent enough to look past the fact that the bitch is intact and properly diagnose her before choosing to do a spay, then I could just type, "go with what your vet recommends." Sadly, I have personal knowledge that this is not the case with many vets, and have heard of others with the same or similar experience when treating intact bitches. Sorry if this is your profession, but I would go with the advice a breeder gives, when they say to consult a reproductive specialist as I said. Because, breeders have intact bitches. They generally have dealt with more intact bitches of our breed than most vet techs. And they may have more experience in that area than a LOT of veterinarians. 

MBD, maybe you are young, or have limited experience, but once you have had a number of personal situations where a vet gave you bad advice, where you have lost a critter or nearly lost a critter due to improper vetting, etc., then maybe you will be more understanding when people question the recommendations of veterinarians, and suggest going to a specialist. Yes your typical vet does have a degree and a practice (hopefully some experience), but it simply does not mean they are the best place to go when you have a critter you care about, who possibly has a serious problem, for which you may need to make an decision that can affect the dog's life down the line, and possibly the plans that you have for her. 

The internet forum junkies sometimes actually have better advice to give than a vet. Some of them know better than the vets which drugs should not be mixed, ever. Some of them know more about tick diseases, their symptoms, varieties, etc. Some know more about vaccinations and preventives. Lots of them have better information on what to feed GSDs. Breeders have intact bitches. They have seen a lot of stuff personally, and have a network of other breeders who all discuss these things as well. They know what vets to go to get a proper diagnoses and treatment. They have learned the hard way not to trust blindly in vets.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

sparra said:


> Last I checked this thread is not about the spay / neuter debate.
> 
> *OP.....get a diagnosis and go from there.....you will not get a diagnosis here. If the diagnosis requires a spay ......spay her.*


sparra said it best :thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

OP, go to a reproductive specialist, to get a diagnosis, and a recommendation for how to treat it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> The internet forum junkies sometimes actually have better advice to give than a vet. Some of them know better than the vets which drugs should not be mixed, ever. Some of them know more about tick diseases, their symptoms, varieties, etc. Some know more about vaccinations and preventives. Lots of them have better information on what to feed GSDs. Breeders have intact bitches. They have seen a lot of stuff personally, and have a network of other breeders who all discuss these things as well. They know what vets to go to get a proper diagnoses and treatment. They have learned the hard way not to trust blindly in vets.


:toasting:

Also try to ask a vet on what to feed your GSD and you probably will get the advice to feed Science Diet or Purina. If you suggest raw feeding, they will tell you are out of your mind. (my experience).


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well my experiences have been vastly different
our vets do not tell us what to feed or how to vaccinate
nor when to alter our pets
they have even been on board with raw
but then we shopped around until we found vets we were comfortable with
for regular health care and specialists / after hour clinics


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

We all know vets are no good.........until you need one


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

sparra said:


> We all know vets are no good.........until you need one


In my case in regard to feeding / vaccination and behavior/training issues. Everything else I trust their expertise and have no complains about them.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

sparra said:


> We all know vets are no good.........until you need one


oh i forgot! silly me :blush:


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

Update: Took Zelda to the vet on post this morning. Told him about the situation, showed him her blood work from Friday, and explained her symptoms. He said it probably is not pyometra (once again, no definite answer) because her symptoms would have gotten worse if it was pyo. I asked him to do blood work and take X-rays. Everything came back normal. Said her uterus didn't look swollen, and that her bowels were full of poo (made sure to make her go to the bathroom before we got in the car to go home lol). He said it sounds more like vaginitis, and for me to continue the antibiotics until they are gone. Her vulva is still a little swollen, he said that could be because she just ended her heat cycle a week ago. She has no more discharge, and only occasionally licks now. 

She's been acting like her old self again since Friday night. Getting into trouble, and eating like a champ.


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## Youreamonkey274 (Jul 14, 2014)

Just thought I would post some pics of my happy pup


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

Beautiful!!!!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm glad she's feeling better, the second set of photos really made me smile


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sparra said:


> We all know vets are no good.........until you need one


Sparra, check out my posts on this thread and MBDs. I said from the first to go to a reproductive specialist (a vet). Not to just ignore it and hope it goes away.

The thing is, it is just experience here, that a LOT of vets (meaning this has happened with several different vets) will stop looking for anything when they are told the bitch is intact. Intact bitch = pyometra, tell them to spay, done.

I have a lot of respect for veterinarians in general. But I have also gotten some pretty bad advice, and have suffered from mistakes that vets have made with my own dogs. Sometimes dog owners have to go beyond taking a dog to the vet and following their recommendations. Sometimes ordinary people without veterinary degrees can look at something and consider what the vet is telling them, and realize that it may not be the best thing. And then they should go to whoever can help their dog. 

Case in point: I had lost a tiny puppy, and the next day the remaining two puppies were in trouble. I rushed them to the vet, and they kept them all day, warming them, and tube feeding them. I got them back that night and before tubing, I checked their temp, one was 95.7, the other was 101.2. I knew that the 101 was too high, so I heightened the heat lamp, and when I checked her again, she had come down in temp a bit so I went ahead and tubed her. 

The next morning she was up to 101 again. I called the vet's office, and asked what temp she should be at. The tech (who was taking care of the puppies the day before) said, anywhere from 97 to 102. So I asked, "Even for baby puppies?" She said she would ask the vet. Good. 

She called back saying the vet wanted me to give the puppies amoxicillin. I ran up and got it, and while I was there, I asked her, what temp the puppies should be at. She said, 97 to 102. (I knew this was incorrect.) I said, that they are in that range, so why are we giving antibiotics. She told me, that the vet said the puppies were stressed. Hmmmm. 

I paid for the antibiotics, drove home, and called the 24 hour clinic 2 hours away, that has all the bells and whistles, including a reproductive department. They told me what I asked -- the puppy should be 96, maybe 97 degrees. They would not put the pup on antibiotics unless it had an infection, and then they would give it probiotics as well. And they wanted to see the pups and the dam. 

The puppies are alive today because I did not follow the veterinarian and went with my own knowledge and common sense, and got them to a different vet that has lots of experience with young puppies and dams with pups, etc. 

I have not had a vet tell me personally that my bitch has pyo and I need to spay her, but I have had one of my puppy buyers get this from the ER vet, they were insistent that the dog needed to be spayed. The dog had a blockage. Spaying her would have done nothing but weaken her further. It would not have fixed the blockage, and the bitch may have died. If this person did not call me and get my suggest (as I did in this thread) to take the bitch to the 24 hour clinic that has a reproductive specialist on staff. As she was picking her dog up from the ER, that morning after it spent the night there, she called her regular vet after talking to me, and they gave her the exact same advice, take her to the clinic I suggested. 

Vets have strengths and weaknesses. We have to educate ourselves, so that we know what to look for, we know what symptoms look like, and we can give good information to the vet. And sometimes, we have to know when to go against what a vet says, and when to take the dog to someone else and where to take them.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it is easy to say or recommend things here on the internet
my point (and sparras) is that the vet is there and can view the dog 
sure in this case it worked out but there are times when you could give bad advise and wind up causing a dog to be sicker or even die
being spayed is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog either

i am aware that pyos become more of an issue the older a dog gets

and i didnt think this was necessarily a pyo but then again stranger things have happened


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## Linda1270 (Sep 7, 2012)

Beautiful girl you have there, love the second set of photos "Eat em up Kats!"


Also, I'm very glad that she's feeling better and that they do not believe that it is Pyo. Good luck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> *Please go to a 24 hour clinic with a reproductive department.* The last thing you want to do to your puppy is to spay her if she has an infection. You want to get the infection under control first.
> 
> With closed pyometra it is an emergency and spaying can be the only thing they can do. I am not sure about their not having any other means of treating. Closed pyometra has no discharge. The organ fills with pus, and it bursts, and it will kill the dog. Your dog does not have this.
> 
> ...





my boy diesel said:


> it is easy to say or recommend things here on the internet
> my point (and sparras) is that the vet is there and can view the dog
> sure in this case it worked out but there are times when you could give bad advise and wind up causing a dog to be sicker or even die
> being spayed is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog either
> ...



MBD, your point is to bully me because you have a problem with me. You did not say anything negative to the others on this thread that suggested what I suggested. Only to me. I quoted my first post on this thread, and my first statement, which I repeated in almost every post, was to go to a clinic with a reproductive department/vet -- This will NOT get your dog killed. It is called a second opinion. And if there is no fever, and the bloodwork looks ok, and there is discharge, it is not so much of an emergency that you should rush to spay, and not go for a second opinion. 

People on the internet CAN give bad advice. And someone may take that advice and make their dog sicker or even lose their dog. Suggesting a second opinion from another or more qualified veterinarian is not the same as telling someone whose dog has all the signs of bloat to rub it down with vinegar water and wait until tomorrow. 

Glad the OP did get a second opinion, and the bitch will be fine, and she didn't need to be cut on while she had something going on.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I am really torn on this subject to the point of dis-com-buberated thoughts on Pyrometra. Orig. I asked my vet about tie-ing tubes instead of spaying. He said, NO..!! The dog may not go "out of heat" so to speak and pyrometra could result then you have an emergency situation where the dog needs surgery when it is already in distress. I looked at pictures yesterday, it was not pretty.

I think my question, my first question is about breeds. Do GSD have a higher chance % wise of this terrible condition above a mixed breed dog or another breed > ?

Let's talk about Isabella. 11.5 months. 1 year on Dec. 25th. 83 lbs. recently. Goes in for nail trims every 12 weeks, then gets a manny-peddie by dad with a dremel tool to round out the sharp edges and get her polished out. 

She's not a sickly dog. She's doing really well, she is a PET. Not a guard dog, not a SAR dog, training perhaps to be a PTSD dog, where she can cuddle an older person, stressed out over life and perhaps make a small difference in peoples lives.

She's very unknown. Can stand on her hind legs for long periods of time, no issues, no reason to x-ray her, she is not a breeding dog. I am responsible and level headed enough to know, this is not her calling NOR mine, to have pups. I probably could qualify for free spaying, idk, it is a side issue. I wanted to wait until the 3rd. heat was completed, 1 down and 2 to go, but now, I'm not so confident that "Old World Approach" is still valid > ?

I am not a worrier.. I am a concerned-er.. Well though out ideas, for a dog who potentially could have a puss filled blockage in her lady parts...

*IDEAS: > ?*

SGCSG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I am really torn on this subject to the point of dis-com-buberated thoughts on Pyrometra. Orig. I asked my vet about tie-ing tubes instead of spaying. He said, NO..!! The dog may not go "out of heat" so to speak and pyrometra could result then you have an emergency situation where the dog needs surgery when it is already in distress. I looked at pictures yesterday, it was not pretty.
> 
> I think my question, my first question is about breeds. Do GSD have a higher chance % wise of this terrible condition above a mixed breed dog or another breed > ?
> 
> ...


Ideas, yeah, I have ideas. 

I think that if you want to wait until she has completed 3 heat cycles, the odds are in your favor that she will not get pyo before then. 

I understand that after a bitch gets pyo, it is far more likely to reoccur. And, I wonder if some blood lines are more prone to it. If the breed can be more prone to it than other breeds, than it stands to figure that some bloodlines may be more prone to it. So far, I have not had a bitch get pyo, even though, my regular vet has stated that all intact bitches will get it. It is my understanding that it becomes more likely as bitches age. 

So in making your decision for your bitch, I would look at her pedigree and any known information there concerning pyo. If you can identify 1 or more that had it, then you might want to spay earlier. 

We have to remember that when we do something to prevent a condition that might occur, we can sometimes open the door to other issues. 

Try to look at the whole picture and then choose.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ideas, yeah, I have ideas.
> 
> I think that if you want to wait until she has completed 3 heat cycles, the odds are in your favor that she will not get pyo before then.
> 
> ...


Selzer, I so appreciate your comments and the level headed-ness I see in your posts. So, thank you very much !!! I have nothing to compare, no way of knowing about Bella's ancestry, bloodlines, problems ect. She is such a great dog, I/we broke every rule of thumb on byb, took her out of South Central Los Angeles, CA where God know's what would have been her life if I was not so darn stubborn and cheap to rescue this animal !! Plan is about 18 months or 3 heats. As soon as that is completed, it's off to the beauty shop again, this time it will be different for her..

AGAIN YOUR THE BEST ON THE BOARD !!!!

SGCSG


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