# Conditioning?



## APBTLove

Really not sure if this is the right place, sorry if it's not...

By conditioning, I mean getting a dog in top shape... Why don't GSD people who show do this? Why don't all show dog owners?

I guess I'm partial because APBTs are conditioned before going to a show, to show the dog's conformation and body at it's best... but most other breeds I see in show are average, don't even have a tuck going for them.

I think conditioning really shows the dog's body for what it is... 
(yes, I have permission to use pics)

This is an APBT of average weight(not the best angle):









And conditioned:










Another example, the pics on the left are ADBA conditioned dogs... The middle is UKC, the right is AKC.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/bahamutt99/web_dogpics/Top10s2.png
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/bahamutt99/web_dogpics/Top10s3.png

Really no real POINT to the question, just something I've wanted other opinions on: Why don't many other breeds get in top condition before showing?

I mean, I've seen GSDs in amazing condition when they are working SchH or are K9 officers.


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## Elaine

Because that's not what the judge wants. Some breeds are shown emaciated like the GSDs and some breeds are shown obese like Rotts and labs. Some breeds are shown in good shape like whippets. It all depends on what the breed judges want.


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## Andaka

I used to roadwork my dogs all of the time. 3 days a week every week so that they had good muscle tone and stamina for long periods of gaiting. When I was younger I did it from a bicycle, then from a battery powered scooter. When we moved to the new house, Tag swam in the pool 3 days a week.


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## APBTLove

Elaine said:


> Because that's not what the judge wants. Some breeds are shown emaciated like the GSDs and some breeds are shown obese like Rotts and labs. Some breeds are shown in good shape like whippets. It all depends on what the breed judges want.


I'm a little confused with your post... What do you mean some are shown emaciated, like GSDs? I have never seen an emaciated dog at any show...

Gorgeous pup, Andaka. Do you go off road with the bike? I would think it's better on the dog to work on natural ground rather than paved roads. 

My personal opinion, and I'm only one person, is dogs of all breeds, or at least working breeds, should be shown in working condition... Can you see an overweight rottie pulling carts and herding all day?

If showing is to pick the best of each breed... how can you do that and ignore the breed's purpose?


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## Elaine

Maybe you need to take a closer look at the GSDs being shown and you find that they are shown very underweight. In no way is their condition considered healthy. I think the SV shows have even skinnier dogs than the AKC shows.

Working condition is something most AKC showline dogs can not reach considering how crippled so many of them are. It's a good thought though.


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## APBTLove

Could you find a couple of pics, or maybe a vid of what you're talking about?

I've seen thin, and overweight... But never neglectfully underweight... but I will be honest, I have not attended many shows where GSDs were prominent.


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## Elaine

It's not neglectfully underweight, it's deliberate. It's what the breed people want for the breed ring. You rarely see it in the dogs that are performance only.

I've been dog showing since the stone age and this is a trend that is a more recent development. I am so glad I don't show in breed; those people are crazy and most of them will agree


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## APBTLove

It sounds like, to me, when people try to skimp on conditioning a dog down to a show weight, and instead just cut back on food and end up with an underweight dog... I've seen it in shows. How people think it's better is beyond me... I'd rather see a chunky dog than an underweight dog. 


I think it would be so neat to see dogs of all breeds conditioned at shows. I drool over ADBA ready dogs... lol 

My dumb boy, who isn't even in that great of shape compared to many dogs I've met, is better looking in body condition than any GSD around here... 

Guess I'm getting a bit off-topic. But overweight pets are a peeve of mine... When people's VETS, the ones who are supposed to know what's best, tell people their dog who's 10+ pounds over weight is fine, it really screws the dogs up.

Until very recently, the last couple of years, I thought that a sausage with legs was okay, because it's the norm and my vet always said it was okay. 

Here is the dog he told me was fine for years.









After that pic, I got her to lose 20 pounds, and she could have still lost a bit... I always wonder if she would have had longer if I'd known sooner, she died from Bloat, though..

And of course my J monkey...









LOL I turned this into a fat rant..


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## Liesje

In the WDA/SV ring the judges I've had lately *have* been picky about size and condition. Dogs have been moved farther back because of their condition (and likewise when a judge ignores this there are complaints from fanciers about the dog's poor condition). When Nikon has a show coming up I have DH jog him several miles a few times a week. At a show like the Sieger Show, the larger the class (often corresponding to the age of the dog), the more gaiting. The working class dogs might be all in the ring gaiting for an hour straight. It's pretty obvious who is in condition and who's not. When Nikon was in a Sieger Show he was only 7 months and *I* had to get in condition for all the double handling!

This is Nikon in show condition - ribs visible, nice tuck, well muscled (he's not yet two and his thighs are about 4" thick). In the photo he's 13 months and almost 70lbs.


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## Mrs.K

Elaine said:


> *Maybe you need to take a closer look at the GSDs being shown and you find that they are shown very underweight.* In no way is their condition considered healthy. I think the SV shows have even skinnier dogs than the AKC shows.
> 
> Working condition is something most AKC showline dogs can not reach considering how crippled so many of them are. It's a good thought though.



I have yet to see an underweight dog that is showed in conformation shows. Don't confuse conditioned dogs over underweight. There is a big difference between the two.


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## Mrs.K

Elaine said:


> *Maybe you need to take a closer look at the GSDs being shown and you find that they are shown very underweight.* In no way is their condition considered healthy. I think the SV shows have even skinnier dogs than the AKC shows.
> 
> Working condition is something most AKC showline dogs can not reach considering how crippled so many of them are. It's a good thought though.


And maybe you confuse conditioned dogs over underweight.


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## Elaine

Not a chance. I am a huge proponent of a well conditioned lean dog. The dogs in the ring are very underweight.


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## trudy

I do lots with Ty, Can show lines and he runs 77 pounds and 26" , he trains agilityh, obedience, (with jumps) tending , and runs the yard retrieving daily. I have been told he will need 10 pounds before he will do anything in shows, he is 2. So although I may enter before he puts on more weight, he is very muscled and is thought to be too thin. I haven't noticed too thin, but have seen some less muscled. I am hoping the judges appreciate the muscling when I do enter him.


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## Xeph

> It's what the breed people want for the breed ring.


Not all of us. I'd prefer not to be lumped in with those that want a ridiculously thin dog to show, because I hate that look (and yes, they do indeed exist). But I've also seen some nice dogs in EXCELLENT condition.

I've also noticed that people want these ridiculously thin dogs for the specialty ring, not the all breed ring.


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## BlackPuppy

Liesje said:


> The working class dogs might be all in the ring gaiting for an hour straight.


 
Yikes! Who's handling these dogs? That would leave me out.


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## JKlatsky

Well I think also you're never going to see as dramatic a difference as the example you posted with the Pits. It's very difficult to see that kind of conditioning on a Shepherd with the coat and I also think that as a breed they are not genetically designed to show that kind of muscle. I've seen dog sin great condition that don't look as muscled as dogs in equally great condition with shorter coat...and most of the dogs you see in shows have more coat (sometimes of course they are all coat and no muscle...) Additionally GSDs are not supposed to be a breed with a major tuck-up. 

Now Argos is by no-means any kind of excellent conformation example...however he does have a nice underline and you can see here that he's in pretty good condition.


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## Liesje

This thread is interesting to me because many dogs I see in UKC and AKC shows I think are OVER weight and not conditioned at all. I've seen plenty of heavy, barrel chested dogs. The two dogs that come to mind as being underweight and not conditioned were both females that *just* weaned a litter (and if they were mine I would not have shown them).


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## Mrs.K

Elaine said:


> Not a chance. I am a huge proponent of a well conditioned lean dog. The dogs in the ring are very underweight.


What exactly do you consider underweight? That one can see the ribs?

While I really don't like the Showline, I wouldn't call any of them underweight.


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## AgileGSD

I also have seen dogs shown and winning in AKC that are fat in multiple breeds. Haven't noticed a great number of underweight dogs (certainly not extremely underweight) and I live in an area that has lots of GSD show breeders. 

You can see some nicely conditioned sighthounds at shows sometimes, usually with people who course and/or race them. There is a big split in many of them too between show and coursing/racing lines. And I have heard people commenting about Greyhounds being too "over muscled" for the ring. Is there really such a thing?

At the Belgian national last month, one thing the judge commented on was the lack of proper muscling that she saw. She felt that at least 85% of the dogs shown weren't properly conditioned for a working breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I've been to 3 GSD Nationals in the USA and actually was surprised how thin the dogs were. Really all of them. I'd seen Labs all ready to trial for AKC trials and they are HUGE tubular things, so I was expecting somewhat the same for the GSD's.

While I can't say they were hugely muscled, they were definitely lean. Though I agree with the others that mention the 'plusher' type fluffy coat is favored and they groom the heck out of it before going in the ring. So with that much full fluffy coat on the skin you don't get the same ability to look at the muscling or bones.

Probably helps cover up some flaws and smooth them out, as well as showing a healthy coat.


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## codmaster

APBTLove said:


> ...........
> By conditioning, I mean getting a dog in top shape... Why don't GSD people who show do this? Why don't all show dog owners?.............I think conditioning really shows the dog's body for what it is...
> 
> I mean, I've seen GSDs in amazing condition when they are working SchH or are K9 officers.


Have you ever visited some of the top show dog GSD operations? The vast majority of them actually do road work with the dogs that they are currently campaigning in the breed ring even the puppy classes. Don't forget that the majority of dogs in a breed show are owned by inviduals who are NOT really into the showing thing and do not know a great deal about showing and have never been told about it either. You can believe that the "pros" dogs HAVE been conditioned in the vast majority of cases.


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## APBTLove

I'm not really talking about working shows. I mean most UKC/AKC shows. Any time I see it on TV the dogs look chunky, though most of the sighthounds look lovely. 

It's the same with pit bull dogs, it's rare to see one that doesn't look like a potato sack in the AKC, but in ADBA (working) shows, they are in top condition... Just like working GSD events, thy are normally all in good shape.


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## Xeph

But you seem to be assuming that all breeds are built like Pit Bulls, and that's just not true. The muscling on a GSD is not built the same way as that of a Pit. You can't judge a coated dog just by LOOKING at it, you HAVE to feel it.

There is a lot of muscle under all that coat on a lot of dogs, but they are "super poofed" for the ring. Hair hides muscle.

I think Old English Sheepdogs or Bearded Collies are a good example of this. You don't know what the dog's muscling is until you've had your hands on the dog.


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## Samba

I can't imagine putting a GSD out there to show seriously without conditioning. Mine has roadwork and swimming regularly. Weight and conditioning are important. If you don't condition your GSD for show you are likely to be beaten by those who do. The serious competitors don't skimp on conditioning.


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## emjworks05

I ride a bike and have my girl trot next to me, I have also been doing jumps with her. I will start swimming with her soon, I would not say that she is emaciated skinny, shes lean like a Shepherd should be but not under weight by any means.


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## Samba

Our girl is able to max out the golf cart without missing a beat.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Xeph said:


> But you seem to be assuming that all breeds are built like Pit Bulls, and that's just not true. The muscling on a GSD is not built the same way as that of a Pit. You can't judge a coated dog just by LOOKING at it, you HAVE to feel it.
> 
> There is a lot of muscle under all that coat on a lot of dogs, but they are "super poofed" for the ring. Hair hides muscle.
> 
> I think Old English Sheepdogs or Bearded Collies are a good example of this. You don't know what the dog's muscling is until you've had your hands on the dog.


Exactly, which is why there's no point to a thread comparing two different breeds with entirely different builds and entirely different kinds of coats. If this were just about conditioning (vs not conditioning) GSDs for the show ring that would be an interesting discussion (and some people are actually having that discussion here anyway), but that doesn't seem to be what the OP intended when she started this thread.


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## JKlatsky

Xeph said:


> But you seem to be assuming that all breeds are built like Pit Bulls, and that's just not true. The muscling on a GSD is not built the same way as that of a Pit. You can't judge a coated dog just by LOOKING at it, you HAVE to feel it.
> 
> There is a lot of muscle under all that coat on a lot of dogs, but they are "super poofed" for the ring. Hair hides muscle.
> 
> I think Old English Sheepdogs or Bearded Collies are a good example of this. You don't know what the dog's muscling is until you've had your hands on the dog.


 
I kind of think of this also in terms of human beings. Consider the Distance Runner. No one is going to call some guy that runs 20+ miles for fun out of shape...but he looks absolutely nothing like a Sprinter. 









The 2 types of activities require different kinds of muscles. I've always considered Shepherds to be more endurance based and breeds like APBTs to be more needful of the quick power based muscle.


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## APBTLove

Xeph said:


> But you seem to be assuming that all breeds are built like Pit Bulls, and that's just not true. The muscling on a GSD is not built the same way as that of a Pit. You can't judge a coated dog just by LOOKING at it, you HAVE to feel it.
> 
> There is a lot of muscle under all that coat on a lot of dogs, but they are "super poofed" for the ring. Hair hides muscle.
> 
> I think Old English Sheepdogs or Bearded Collies are a good example of this. You don't know what the dog's muscling is until you've had your hands on the dog.


Of course they are not, I wasn't comparing GSDs to APBTs, I never said that, I said why aren't all dogs conditioned before a show? You honestly can't say you've never seen a lab that looks like a sausage at a dog show, or a pug who looks like he might have a heat stroke if he were asked to run a 1/4 mile. I agree with you, got to get hands on.

I used the pictures of APBTs to show the difference of a dog who's in good shape, but not conditioned as compared to one in as good of shape as you can, and I used APBTs because I don't have permission to use pictures of other people's showing GSDs of different body condition, and I have permission to use those two.






Cassidy's Mom said:


> Exactly, which is why there's no point to a thread comparing two different breeds with entirely different builds and entirely different kinds of coats. If this were just about conditioning (vs not conditioning) GSDs for the show ring that would be an interesting discussion (and some people are actually having that discussion here anyway), but that doesn't seem to be what the OP intended when she started this thread.


I already said it, but I'll say it to you. I never said I was comparing APBTs athleticism, talent, body construction, conditioning, or anything to a GSD. I used their pics, as I said earlier in this very same thread, because I don't have pictures showing a GSD in top shape who is shown compared to one who is average who is also shown that I have permission to use. 
Comparing a GSD to a APBT is ridiculous, the only thing you could compare is they are both canines and have the same body parts.

Please do not speculate my intentions. I stated my intentions with my first post here.


> Really no real POINT to the question, just something I've wanted other opinions on: Why don't many other breeds get in top condition before showing?


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