# Pulling back vs. Torquing the sleeve- revisited



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I am re reading this post. Am I correct in saying as long as the dog has a full calm bite, torquing is Ok? 

The reason I ask, is that , some in my club are saying to only encourage the pulling back and to discourage the torquing in young dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's a points issue. If the dog is pulling back, he is most likely not going to regrip and lose points. When they start "torquing" and fighting the helper, which IMO they actually should be doing, they lose points if they regrip or get chewy on the sleeve.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I just want to clarify that re-gripping and being chewy are very different. In the suit sports, they want to see a dog fighting and digging in for more. In the sleeve sports, they don't.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, they are very different. The issue is when the dog regrips and the judge interprets it as chewy. So pulling is the safer option.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

My dog is like a crab. She sometimes torques with a full bite and doesn't re grip. So no points lost?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I just want to clarify that re-gripping and being chewy are very different. In the suit sports, they want to see a dog fighting and digging in for more. In the sleeve sports, they don't.


On a sleeve, what about locking up with a dog that pushes in and torques around?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdluvr said:


> My dog is like a crab. She sometimes torques with a full bite and doesn't re grip. So no points lost?


If the bite is full and deep, there is no reason to re-grip.
As far as locking up....if the helper can hold the sleeve still then the out command should be coming(or *wince* auto-out) and the dog should be ready for that transition. 
Karlo is very powerful and helpers do have a hard time locking up, so he will continue to fight as long as he is 'controlling' the sleeve. I have had to practice active outs with him, just in case we trial with a helper that cannot lock up.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> On a sleeve, what about locking up with a dog that pushes in and torques around?


IME sleeve sports don't want to see that. They would rather see the dog pulling or sitting there with a calm grip. 



onyx'girl said:


> If the bite is full and deep, there is no reason to re-grip.



I disagree with this as well. I personally want to see a dog pushing, fighting and digging for more no matter how full the grip. Again just what I like to see.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> IME sleeve sports don't want to see that. They would rather see the dog pulling or *sitting there with a calm grip*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In trial, the points would be for a full grip(that is what I was addressing, points in trial). I would also rather see a dog fight and not be along for the ride on a sleeve. Your comment to Steve is what I meant.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But is it harder to lock up? I've seen a few good dogs that end up not outing because they were torquing around and the helper couldn't hold steady. Kinda like the feet on the helper. They start pushing or wrapping, the helper can't get set and it all goes off the rails.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would say it is harder to lock up when the dog is fighting, especially with a powerful dog. That is the reason we worked on active outs with Karlo...out means out no matter if the sleeve is still or not.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> But is it harder to lock up? I've seen a few good dogs that end up not outing because they were torquing around and the helper couldn't hold steady. Kinda like the feet on the helper. They start pushing or wrapping, the helper can't get set and it all goes off the rails.



Oh got it. I don't know if it's harder. I guess it would depend on the individual dog. You know me Steve and know I'm not a big guy. However, dogs that pull, I find I can still lock up fairly(well kinda) easy. Use my second hand if needed, plant my feet and sink my butt. Dogs that are torquing and pushing in are generally less predicable and go multiple directions, so it's harder to just plant yourself in an opposite direction. If you have a dog that pulls, pushes and torques, then you can be in a world of hurt haha. In our last trial, Kimber took down the decoy on the jump out attack. As he started to go down she shifted her weight and pulled him down. As he would try and plant his foot to stand back up she would pull then push making it harder for him to get him. I took a couple tries because she kept throwing off his balance.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Exactly. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of.


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