# Phasing Out The Tug



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

First, things are going great! The IPO club is like an hour and half away from me, and technically I can only go every other Saturday since I have my kids every other weekend. But, I've been having so much fun that I grab my oldest daughter, bring her with, and shell out for a sitter for my boys. Won't be able to do that long term financially, but the fundamentals are at that stage where they are coming together so well I hate to miss. 

I definitely started on the back foot with this dog. I have never done any sport (always had trained dogs in the manners and listening department, but never the sport stuff). Valor was 9 months old when we started and had some typical for his lines suspicion. He will always have that in him, but it is very controlled now and his confidence is going up so nicely with age (he is almost a year) and training. We have learned everything out of order really..but it is coming together now.

My club has trials coming up. We are not old enough for BH yet, but I will be going to watch and learn.

He has the on leash BH pattern down. We haven't tried off leash yet, but I am pretty optimistic. His long down is GREAT. Sit and down in motion, good. Fuss is good, his ass end no longer kicks out like a race car drafting lol That was stuff I had to fix with my body language. And I had to lose the sunglasses even though I HATE squinting. It was contributing to forging. 

So when i say he has the BH pattern down, I mean he knows it, but we are still using tug reward. Mostly just drop and possession at this point(not me playing hard with him). We can go all the way down field in both longer paced fuss segments, but he does still get jackpot rewards. Any advice on good ways/times to phase out the tug? Actually any advice on timing rewards and phasing out would be welcome. 

He has to at least October maybe November before we get to try for BH. In the meantime in addition to what we have to do for BH we are practicing protection and this week we will start him on tracking.

He does great on bite work. We are just starting blinds and long bites. He is completely neutral to gunfire. 

Oh another question- what does it mean when the dog wants to go at the helper even after the sleeve is off? Like, he "wins" the sleeve and then outs nicely for me. After he outs he wants to go at the helper before I kick it back to helper and before he puts the sleeve back on and before the helper (IDK the right terminology) postures? There was some discussion over that and would love other independent opinions/experiences with that. 

Thanks all! Just got learned up on some new to me video editing software, but I only have cell phone video to work with. Going to bring the big cameras next weekend and set them up, and see if I can make cool videos


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do you want to phase it out as in remove it from sight or not have it on you to reward at all?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Well, his BH is still 5or 6 months away. So I was thinking out of view, followed by not on my person. That was basically my question, what is the preferred timeline for phasing out of sight thewn off your body?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You can stop luring with food or toy as soon as possible. It starts becoming a random reward system. At first you would pop out the reward fairly quickly. Then at certain times (like during the gun fire or during the group). Then the toy becomes hidden for far longer stretches and the rewards become much more random, but the toy is never totally removed from training. If done correctly, the drive will increase in anticipation of the toy being popped out. On trial day the toy just isn't there, but the dog won't know that and will expect it and build and build throughout the routine.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Makes total sense, thanks


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't rush to fade out the tug Comet. You don't want to create a clear distinction between "Yes, I have the tug now" and " I don't have it now" You want him to think it may appear there where you have him targeting if he really, really works and believes.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

So, like a jackpot basically. You never know when you may get it? And then just work in longer times between reward?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, basically. I think there always has to be a level of them heeling because they like doing it with you, but its the anticipation of the toy appearing there that keeps the intensity and focus up.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

That makes sense, thanks all. The more I think about it, I even see established PD dogs get their rewards for finding things or getting the bad guy. So pretty much just jackpot, alternate sudden reward in motion, reward when he sits properly when I stop..he never knows when it is coming, but it should always come when he is either in good motion or good position (when he sits when I stop walking, etc) And I am also thinking not to reward when I return to him after the down and sit in motion, but wait until he moves with me again?

Here is an example of us training BH pattern. Two things I noticed when I watched this ( I think videoing yourself is a very valuable thing)..I need to keep more slack in the lead, and my original sit position was not great.






There are a few videos on my channel, wanted to warn you about the one that says Stuart's weekend. My BF HAD to chop wood for the firepit despite the Guiness. Now has about a 1/4 inch less on the top of his finger. I did a humorous story board with pics from the day and the last pic is of his finger with a gel ball on it after the injury. I did sound effects and all lol Anyway, did not want to sniper anyone with a bloody finger pic.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do you say "fuss" as you start to move or "fuss" and then move? You move and then he moves which is why I am asking. His starts are lagging. He should be anticipating your step forward (start with your left when heeling). 



Doesn't hurt to reward him when he is in the sit position instead of heeling first before rewarding and don't always do the full 15 paces before going back to reward . You may do both already. The goal of the in-motions is both accuracy and speed.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I say fuss, I think, as I am starting to move. I may be off timing with that. Thanks for pointing it out, I will pay attention that that today!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Do you say "fuss" as you start to move or "fuss" and then move? You move and then he moves which is why I am asking.* His starts are lagging. He should be anticipating your step forward (start with your left when heeling*).
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't hurt to reward him when he is in the sit position instead of heeling first before rewarding and don't always do the full 15 paces before going back to reward . You may do both already. The goal of the in-motions is both accuracy and speed.


The starting with your left foot is an overlooked 'cheat' in CKC obedience. You aren't allowed to give a double command but no one says you cannot condition your dogs to a body cue. When I was competing in obedience all of my dogs were taught to move as soon as I bent my left knee, so for the stay I walked away starting with my right.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Be careful with using the leash to guide him into positions and turning your body like that. Try to avoid that type of help. If you're going to stop, stop, without changing you're direction. When you start, start without hesitation. Foos, pause a second, move like you mean it. I reward for holding position a lot more then I reward after releasing from the position.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

CometDog said:


> I say fuss, I think, as I am starting to move. I may be off timing with that. Thanks for pointing it out, I will pay attention that that today!



Say "fuss" and then step out.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sabis mom said:


> The starting with your left foot is an overlooked 'cheat' in CKC obedience. You aren't allowed to give a double command but no one says you cannot condition your dogs to a body cue. When I was competing in obedience all of my dogs were taught to move as soon as I bent my left knee, so for the stay I walked away starting with my right.



No "cheat", just correct footwork.  When moving forward with the dog start on the left foot. When leaving the dog move out on the right. Same in the "out of motions" in IPO. Command as the left hits the ground while continuing to move forward with the right.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

With the motion exercises, think about it like its an interruption of the movement. Like another capping exercise. You generally get speed through motivation and working at a little quicker pace. A lot of quick reps, quick rewards. So that's one reason for breaking things into smaller pieces and concentrating on that one thing. So like with the sit out of motion, you'll see people work just that while moving around randomly, not in heel position. You phase that in over time.

For your BH, think about all the other pieces too. The traffic portion, scanning his chip with people around. Moving around people in that environment. How you'll check in with another dog. How you'll warm him up before you walk on the field. practice how you're going to remove and then re leash him. Details like that can be where you start having problems. Know the routine so you don't get confused, and when you heel to the long down, make sure you heel him. Keep the ob, don't let that be a casual stroll.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks! I got a subscription to the Dave Kroyer videos too. They are great. 

This guy, I started him wrong on nearly everything sports related. He has been a good sport though.

The traffic portion is good. I take him out and about a lot. He didn't react to a group circling him and then walking in on him after I left him off lead. His default is "suspicious" which he has decided to just ignore it if he isn't allowed to boom at it. Same with dogs.

We are....working...on the microchip. He can ignore, but when someone is bending over and touching him he looks like he wants to lunge at their head. Once he gets to know someone they could paint his toes for all he cares. But the judge will be brand new to him. He allows it fine now at our club, but it is a small club so I dont know if he is allowing it because he is familiar with them, or if the training is desensitizing him. 

It's not the type of thing you ask random strangers at the park to do for you. Here, rub this taped up cheese grater we made to look like a scanner all over my dogs neck and back, see if he lets you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And its probably not going to be the judge with the scanner. He'll be there with the clipboard and score sheet, but the scanning will be done usually by the trial secretary whose also a club member and generally knows not to be too invasive about it.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

It's on the field we go to every week and everyone will be there. I am hoping the familiarity of turf and the fact he is used to it getting done there will help, even if it is a new to him person.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Starting next year, and might happen sooner with foreign judges, the judge will be doing all of the scanning. You can hold his head or collar so he can't swing around on anyone.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks. If I am allowed to hold his collar, I don't think he will be a brat. Good to hear that is allowed. In case we have to retest in January because he air alligators the person holding the microchip reader. The judges are flying in from Germany so maybe it will be allowed in October/November. Will work towards him allowing it because I am right next to him and because I said so that is why..in the meantime.

On a lighter note, he has this adorable new thing he does. My 6 year old has CP and walks, but stiffly and has to take his time climbing out of bed. This dog just picked up on the routine. First I help the boy out of bed, out of PJS and pull up, have him pee, then go back in for his sippy so I can get him a milk (he sleeps with a water sippy). Well, one day last week Valor comes into the bathroom ...with the sippy..and drops it. Next school day, same thing. So maybe he will be a star at "bring" !


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

For trial prep, I start conditioning my dog to a routine for walking onto the trial field. So we do a warm up real quick, and the toy goes out of sight. In the beginning stages, I reward earlier on, to get the pattern of building drive without a visible reward. Later on, I ask for longer durations of obedience before rewarding. 

I also agree that you are using a lot of body language to get him doing certain things. I would try and get away from using the leash, so that he's not relying on it for help, and maybe start asking someone to spot your obedience or use a mirror for things like motion exercises in particular, so that you aren't turning and looking at him to give the command. Overall, his focus on you looks good! Just need to fine tune the little things you may not even notice that you're doing to "help" him.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks! Yes, I absolutely notice that my body language needs LOTS of work. That is why I try to video everything. Looking at him is one habit I have developed, much for the reason of seeing if he is straight. Need to drop that and have confidence that if my posture is correct it will help keep him straight.

Our best sessions have been, by far, when I have my friend who is a former K9 handler and IPO person helping us. A couple times she walked behind me with a long line and gave corrections. Really helped with the forging and so did losing my sunglasses. 

We have not started the pattern off lead yet. My club's philosophy is fundamentals and bring him up slowly. I tend to be more hyper so this is a good balance lol They do not even want him doing the full pattern yet, just segments. Bitework is fun and fundamentals. He won't be old enough to even think about testing until September, and I think they are not having the judges back out until the fall. Happy to say we have time to get it solid.

There was some concern over the way he was "outing" last time. Previously, when he won the sleeve he was doing the typical victory parade. Well, last week he just glared at the helper, spat it out, and wanted to go for him again..aggressively. Like "now give me another limb". He is hitting puberty for sure. Just started lifting his leg (hooray!). Any input/experience on that?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

CometDog said:


> Thanks. If I am allowed to hold his collar, I don't think he will be a brat. Good to hear that is allowed. In case we have to retest in January because he air alligators the person holding the microchip reader. The judges are flying in from Germany so maybe it will be allowed in October/November. Will work towards him allowing it because I am right next to him and because I said so that is why..in the meantime.



It sounds like you have some anxiety about this portion of the trial. You mentioned him being a brat at times with people leaning over him, yet he doesn't sound like a super dominant or overaggressive dog. I would suggest getting as many different people at different places to do a mock scan and correct him if he lunges. Then reward correct behavior. If he is being a brat, it is because you are allowing it. Once he learns that behavior is not acceptable, you will have one less thing to distract you at the BH. After all, the whole point is that you put all this time and effort to train your dog to demonstrate he is stable, so why not train him to accept the scanning. That should be a lot easier that some of the BH exercises.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

CometDog said:


> -snip-
> 
> Oh another question- what does it mean when the dog wants to go at the helper even after the sleeve is off? Like, he "wins" the sleeve and then outs nicely for me. After he outs he wants to go at the helper before I kick it back to helper and before he puts the sleeve back on and before the helper (IDK the right terminology) postures? There was some discussion over that and would love other independent opinions/experiences with that.
> 
> -snip-


That you've got a good dog who will actually fight and isn't just playing the game.

I like your dog >


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Oh agreed. A few moths ago we had our come to Jesus moments over him randomly deciding someone was looking at him wrong and needed to have a stern warning inches from their face. He now KNOWS he is not allowed to lunge/bark etc at random people just because they are staring. The corrections were hard and under supervision of a very established trainer. 

With much training he is now very neutral to people and dogs around him, and he accepts pets if he is asked to sit and the petting is appropriate. He just looks pissed off and like he SO wants to boom bark in this persons face for touching him and bending over him ...it's that bending over his head while running something that beeps behind his ears that has him obviously at threshold. 

Once he knows someone, he is fine. That is what I meant when I said I am not sure if he is accepting the microchip check now because the people are NOW familiar to him? Or is it the training (he got corrections for not allowing the check without snapping at them like a gator the first few times)

For instance, I can't cut his nails. Having some grip strength issues. So my friend does it and he lets her. He hates getting his nails cut, period. But I think if like a groomer he never met before tried...well, maybe not going to work. 

I had a BBQ last week and my daughter and her friends did his nails purple. He was in heaven for the attention, head in a lap. He knows them though. Actually he is outgoing with kids in general. 

He has a clear idea what is acceptable to him and what isn't. You can SEE it on his face even if he is non reactive. Those Czech eyebrows go all over and speak sign language lol

But yeah, a tad concerned about the chip check. It would stink to train for nearly a year to not even get to try.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

CometDog said:


> So, like a jackpot basically. You never know when you may get it? And then just work in longer times between reward?


No 

Not "...like a jackpot basically..."

100% exactly the same

Quote from the below article:

"To keep players gambling, all slots rely on the same basic psychological principles discovered by B.F. Skinner in the 1960s. Skinner is famous for an experiment in which he put pigeons in a box that gave them a pellet of food when they pressed a lever. But when Skinner altered the box so that pellets came out on random presses — a system dubbed variable ratio enforcement — the pigeons pressed the lever more often. Thus was born the Skinner box, which Skinner himself likened to a slot machine.

The Skinner box works by blending tension and release — the absence of a pellet after the lever is pressed creates expectation that finds release via reward. Too little reward and the animal becomes frustrated and stops trying; too much and it won’t push the lever as often."

https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/6/8544303/casino-slot-machine-gambling-addiction-psychology-mobile-games

ETA: point being people are animals too, if it doesn't relate to self-awareness the psychology is very similar. 

Thought you might find that interesting.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

CometDog said:


> -snip-
> 
> He just looks pissed off and like he SO wants to boom bark in this persons face for touching him and bending over him ...it's that bending over his head while running something that beeps behind his ears that has him obviously at threshold.


I wonder why forcing your dog into a submissive position with random strangers might upset him? Strangest thing.........


Quote:

"Many commonplace human behaviors are threatening gestures to dogs, but their reactions are often times
very subtle and easily missed by most people. Anything that can cause your dog to feel distressed or
uneasy can illicit an aggressive reaction. Such things include: sustained eye contact, pressure over the top
of the head, lifting the dog, bending over the top of a dog, certain force-based training techniques, or trying
to take something of high value away from the dog."

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/local_resources/pdfs/behavior_pdfs/The_Truth_About_Aggression__Dominance_dogs.pdf


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Re: him hating to get his nails cut, how is his food drive? Have you tried having your friend who cuts his nails give him a soft treat after cutting a nail. Eventually, he will learn to tolerate or enjoy it.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Re: him hating to get his nails cut, how is his food drive? Have you tried having your friend who cuts his nails give him a soft treat after cutting a nail. Eventually, he will learn to tolerate or enjoy it.


Cheese Wiz is King lol If it is a stranger, I'm sure it would not work. He wont even take a treat or biscuit from a stranger. Is neutral and accepts a gentle pet with permission from me, but won't take a treat unless I take it then give it to him. Again, unless it is an acquaintance. 

He does not work for other handlers either. Keeps darting his head to see where I am. And absolutely will go up the lead on another handler if a correction is given. Defintely some suspicion/nerves there. He likes who he likes. I am glad he is not skittish nor does he exhibit (outwardly)no fears or apprehension, I do fully understand over suspicion and an inclination to forward defense, especially at his age is based in the same. It was the driving reason to get him in structured IPO. stat. So glad I did. It seems to be diminishing with confidence rather than escalating with maturity. Outwardly he seems cool, confident, aloof, and very gung ho for bitework. I will always know what is in there though, and will always make it a point to handle properly and keep learning.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

They can sit, or stand, you can hold the collar or their muzzle whatever you need, but keep it calm. Don't make it forceful in a way that he'll resist and try to avoid it. They haven't changed it to a judge doing it yet, so don't worry about that. Before you you walk up to the judge, feed him a couple pieces of hot dog in a stand with your hand out in front and him pushing into it a little, then when its your turn, have him push into your semi cupped empty hand thinking he may find a piece. It'll probably be over before he knows it.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Excellent, thank you!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't have anything on you in front of the judge. You do something like that in the parking lot, or at least out of sight. Its basically just another obedience. You'd be surprised at some of the dogs that get through it with out a problem.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> You'd be surprised at some of the dogs that get through it with out a problem.



This sounds familiar - like we have had this conversation before. Lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I guess I repeat myself in my old age, Lol.


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