# Biting Kids



## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

Hi guys, I'm sure you all know me well enough by now. LOL!

Another separate post to address another singular issue that we need reassuring on: biting. Bailey bites, as any other puppy does, but he especially likes our daughters. He loves to grab their pants and pull them down, and each time they attempt to pet him, he mini-jumps and gets all excited, and nips. My girls have started backing off him, which is the opposite of what I want.

Would there be a way, and is it acceptable, to teach our eldest to discipline him when he bites?

We've read a lot about GSD online and information is different everywhere: from putting a finger down his throat (which I'm against), tapping his nose with two fingers (which would seem like it would INVITE a nip from our little buddy), and to grabbing the scruff of his neck, shaking him and saying, "NO BITING". (we've heard worse: the previous owner seemed to encourage being physical with the pups).

So...
1) Is it okay to teach a child to discipline the pup?
2) If so, what would be the easiest, most effective humane way of doing it?

My youngest is already afraid of animals so the nipping really isn't helping her grow fond of dogs, and my oldest is a complete ANIMAL LOVER... and she, herself, this morning, backed away from him on numerous occasions in fear that he might hurt her since he's so rambunctious (normal, of course)

I'd appreciate people whom have went through this especially to give me some feedback of what worked, and not only hear from those whom haven't had first-hand experience of having a pup with their own children -- as the advice would feel more realiable to me than a few lines we read in a book, KWIM.









Thanks!


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## Chantell (May 29, 2009)

Now is the best time to teach, I have to tell you, those puppy teeth are from ****!! LOL. I have learned from this site... everytime the pup goes to bite, nip, mouth you or the kids, redirect with a toy. This has really helped in my home. But one thing I have learned, your whole family has to practice this... My fiance just thought our pup would not do it to him,,,, LOL, hahhaha, and now hes the one she goes to the most for nipping! It was all going good for a while, but now I think my pup is in her " i dont have to listen stage" and starting nipping again, so we just keep redirecting with toys,,,, Start NOW! You will be glad you did!


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Don't tap on nose!

just say no, no bite or ouch and walk away
everyone has to do it that way bailey wil start to understand 
and believe me it won't happen over night ot will take some time 
but he will learn.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

He is nipping and biting because that is how puppies play. It is often worse with children because they are both more exciting (smaller, quicker movements, higher pitched voices) and because dogs recognize them a juveniles. To a pup, that equates to playmates, and a pup will play with people, especially kids, the same way he would play with other dogs and his littermates... chasing, tackling, wrestling and biting. He doesn't understand what is acceptable and harmless to other dogs can be scary and uncomfortable to people.

The best way is to redirect to a toy. Preferably a soft one that he can sink his teeth into. When we are raising pups, we have puppy toys EVERYWHERE... so there is literally one within reach (if not in a pocket) at all times so whenever the pup wants to engage us in play we can quickly redirect and help him learn that while playing with people is fine, he must use a toy as the "interface" between us and not go directly to biting the person.

It's important to note that when pups are biting and tugging and chasing, just shoving a toy in their mouth isn't sufficient. They don't want something in their mouth, they want something in their mouth AND to be playing and interacting with another being. So redirect to the toy, praise when he redirects to the toy, and then play a bit of tug and such with the toy. This satisfies his need for play and social interaction, and this way he learns it's ok to play with people, but that there are certain rules for doing so and one of those rules is to use a toy.


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chantell34Now is the best time to teach, I have to tell you, those puppy teeth are from ****!! LOL. I have learned from this site... everytime the pup goes to bite, nip, mouth you or the kids, redirect with a toy. This has really helped in my home. But one thing I have learned, your whole family has to practice this... My fiance just thought our pup would not do it to him,,,, LOL, hahhaha, and now hes the one she goes to the most for nipping! It was all going good for a while, but now I think my pup is in her " i dont have to listen stage" and starting nipping again, so we just keep redirecting with toys,,,, Start NOW! You will be glad you did!


LOL, oh boy!

Yeah, puppy teeth from ****, for sure! I don't think my kids hurt that much when THEY were teething. And they certainly never bit me!!! Thanks!

We are redirecting with a toy, but in all honesty, when we go play outside, sometimes we forget to bring a toy. He chews on his leash instead (since he's still getting used to dragging the thing around in his mouth). He has a particular attraction to my girls though. Maybe he senses they're hyper like him and think they're playmates? lol


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcDon't tap on nose!
> 
> just say no, no bite or ouch and walk away
> everyone has to do it that way bailey wil start to understand
> ...


Nope! We don't hit the nose! I did catch my daughter do it by reflex the first time he started nipping her leg and she said, "OUCH!" and he just went after her more!


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildHe is nipping and biting because that is how puppies play. It is often worse with children because they are both more exciting (smaller, quicker movements, higher pitched voices) and because dogs recognize them a juveniles. To a pup, that equates to playmates, and a pup will play with people, especially kids, the same way he would play with other dogs and his littermates... chasing, tackling, wrestling and biting. He doesn't understand what is acceptable and harmless to other dogs can be scary and uncomfortable to people.
> 
> The best way is to redirect to a toy. Preferably a soft one that he can sink his teeth into. When we are raising pups, we have puppy toys EVERYWHERE... so there is literally one within reach (if not in a pocket) at all times so whenever the pup wants to engage us in play we can quickly redirect and help him learn that while playing with people is fine, he must use a toy as the "interface" between us and not go directly to biting the person.
> 
> It's important to note that when pups are biting and tugging and chasing, just shoving a toy in their mouth isn't sufficient. They don't want something in their mouth, they want something in their mouth AND to be playing and interacting with another being. So redirect to the toy, praise when he redirects to the toy, and then play a bit of tug and such with the toy. This satisfies his need for play and social interaction, and this way he learns it's ok to play with people, but that there are certain rules for doing so and one of those rules is to use a toy.


LOL! That's exactly what I thought. Hyper kids = happy hyper puppy.

We are redirecting but my girls tend to not be quick enough to reach over for a toy, and when they do, the dog sees their arm over to grab something and he thinks, "MMM!! ARM!" and goes for it. They also run around outside and he LOVES LOVES LOVES to run after them, it's VERY cute but someone told us to not encourage this as he will learn it's okay to run after kids and if he tackles them over or runs after them and pushes them over, they could badly be hurt. Is this true?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Another thing as it pertains to kids is that it's VERY important to teach the kids how to properly react to this. A kid's natural inclination is often to get excited, yell, scream, wave arms, shove pup away, run away.. and that just makes things worse. To a puppy that is all very exciting (so will wind the pup up even more) and will also be interpreted as invitation to continue to play, and play even harder. 

So the kids need to be taught that if he is biting them, being CALM is the correct way to deal with it, then redirect him to the toy (wave the toy about and make the TOY more exciting and enticing to bite than their own body parts) and then praise and play when he redirects to the toy.


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## Chantell (May 29, 2009)

Chewing on leash.... YUP! A part of my leash is Duck Tape







They also grow out of that. Yes, he will think the kids are his littermates, a nice game of tug is always fun! When we go outside, my pockets are full of toys and treats, we even got some toys we just leave out there. As the days go by you will have more fun, and get more comfortable with him, as will your kids.


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildAnother thing as it pertains to kids is that it's VERY important to teach the kids how to properly react to this. A kid's natural inclination is often to get excited, yell, scream, wave arms, shove pup away, run away.. and that just makes things worse. To a puppy that is all very exciting (so will wind the pup up even more) and will also be interpreted as invitation to continue to play, and play even harder.
> 
> So the kids need to be taught that if he is biting them, being CALM is the correct way to deal with it, then redirect him to the toy (wave the toy about and make the TOY more exciting and enticing to bite than their own body parts) and then praise and play when he redirects to the toy.


I LOL'd at this since this is exactly how my kids are with him. THEY LOVE HIM (except the biting and roughness) but when outside, man do they have a blast! They run, and my youngest has the knack of screaming, laughing and flailing her arms like a crazy woman! It's hilarious!

When he bites though, by saying calm, you mean what?

They usually scream, say, "OUCH!!!" and pull away quickly and he just bounces forward like a rabbit and lunges at them to play more. I'm trying to figure out how to show and teach my girls first that if he bites it's NOT okay, but that if they're excited, he will be too. This is a very hard thing to teach them.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

My Neek is a rescue dog, 4 yr old. I was told his fam had kids, I dont know how they lived with him.
When I first got him, if you gave him a treat, he would almost take your fingers off! Ive since taught him: take it NICE and he learned fast what that meant. Hes a smart boy. 
I dont know what to tell you as far as the children the poor things. I know Neek can be pretty rough he caused a pretty nasty black and blue thing on my leg, he jumped on me trying to get water hose. he now only gets toplay with it as a reward for being good. 
I was kind of glad I didnt go thru the puppy thing again when Sashi was a puppy, I was a mess from sharp teeth and he jumped on me from behind, wow I had a pretty nasty scratch from that. I love puppies though Id forgotten all they put you through I would stuff a toy in his mouth when he got too rough. 
Maybe you can teach your kids to calmly walk away and ignore him> he will realise he wont play unless he is good. they are smart dogs


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

So...
1) Is it okay to teach a child to discipline the pup?
2) If so, what would be the easiest, most effective humane way of doing it?

NO. They need to calmly say no to him and put another toy in his mouth. If you are forgetting to bring toys outside, you need more toys. Doesn't have to be a dog toy, could be a cheap basketball or soccer ball, tennisballs (but then you have to get rid of them so he doesn't choke on them when his mouth gets big about 8 months). 

Walmart sells Bouda tugs for under $5 - get some and have your girls put them in their pocket.

If your daughters scream Oww and try to run away, especially waving their arms, this is too exciting a game for a puppy. They need to stand still and say Owww, Mom! Otto is biting me. It helps if they cry - tears aren't exciting for a puppy. 

If mommy comes in and removes the puppy for a 5 minute time out, puppy will soon figure out that biting the kid = time out so he'll stop doing it.

I have a 4 year old daughter myself, along with her twin brother and older brother. It is hard to teach them not to shriek and run away. My boys were like YOU BIT ME, I'll head butt you - which required it's own retraining of the boys. 

You have to figure out what's going to work to get your own children to stop shrieking and running.

Puppies running after the kids is no big deal, it's good fun and exercise but the puppy needs to learn his limits - no tackling. Again this is a time out able offense.


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaSo...
> 1) Is it okay to teach a child to discipline the pup?
> 2) If so, what would be the easiest, most effective humane way of doing it?
> 
> ...


Time outs, never thought that one out -- especially that my youngest is in one a lot.

But how do you put a pup in timeout if he doesn't stay still? I know the crate is in NO way to be used as punishment. I wonder if I could train him to go to a corner by saying, "TIMEOUT" when he bites? Would they catch on? Yeah, getting them to calm down will be a feat -- one I'm willing to tackle.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I don't think sit in the corner on the bad boy chair is going to work for a pup. He isn't even 8 weeks old yet so he's at the age most pups are playing with their littermates, learning bite inhibition from them. He's also easy to scoop up and put in TO.

I use my kitchen for time outs. Some people use the crate, others the bathroom or an xpen. 

Just like a child, don't yell and scream when you're putting them in TO. Pick the puppy up and tell him 'No biting [tackling, eating teddy bears etc] You need a time out' and put him in time out for no more than 5 minutes. You might find him asleep when you come back. Sometimes pups get wild and out of control when they need a nap. If you don't have him on one, a consistent schedule works wonders.

Time out is a good tool for a pup but don't expect it to be the immediate cure all for behavior issues. Time and patience, pass the neosporin and the band aids.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Dogs do not understand the concept of a time out the way a kid does. Depending on the dog and how the situation is handled, using a time out may or may not be valuable.

What a time out does help pups with is in preventing bad habits from forming. Dogs are creatures of habit and it is important to help them form good habits while preventing them from learning bad habits.

Separating pup and kid when the pup is being too rough will not be seen by the pup in the sense of "gee, I shouldn't do that because then I get a time out". A kid can understand that. A dog does not have that rationalizing ability to understand that.

But what will happen with the pup over time is he will learn to play properly with the kids because he is only ever given the chance to practice good behavior and habituate to playing properly with the kids. Separating them in a time out fashion prevents him from having the opportunity to form a bad habit by practicing a form of play you do not want.

So while a time out type thing is useful, I think it important that people realize they really aren't giving the pup a time out in the traditional sense as punishment but need to understand how the pup views the whole thing.

No, you are not going to be able to teach a pup to go to a corner for a time out. 

This is when you use the crate. It isn't punishment, because a pup is incapable of understanding a time out as punishment in the sense of "I do this, that happens". It is helping him form correct behavioral habits by preventing him from interacting with the kids in an inappropriate manner.

But I would only use this as a last resort and only when the pup is getting too wound up that he's just crazy and not redirectable. Then he needs time to calm down (and probably needs a nap as pups can get nutty when they're tired just like kids). For the most part, redirection to appropriate play and doing whatever you have to do as far as having more toys around and helping the kids understand how to react correctly, is what needs to be done.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MayaThey also run around outside and he LOVES LOVES LOVES to run after them, it's VERY cute but someone told us to not encourage this as he will learn it's okay to run after kids and if he tackles them over or runs after them and pushes them over, they could badly be hurt. Is this true?


I personally would not allow this. Yes, there is the chance of one of the kids accidentally being injured. The thing with puppies is that their bodies mature faster than their brains. So while a 7 week old, 10-15lb pup, isn't much danger, in a few months he'll be as big as the kids but still not have matured significantly mentally, and that could be a danger.

This also plays into what I posted earlier about not letting pups form bad habits and practice unwanted behavior. Consistency is key here. Since you're having problems with him playing roughly with the kids elsewhere, encouraging him to play rough chase games with them outside undermines the lessons you're trying to teach them.

Also important to understand that a kid running and shrieking from a pup in playful excitement looks the same to a pup as a kid running and shrieking in FEAR. Him learning now that it's ok to chase running and shrieking kids could cause big problems in the future. Maybe not with your own kids, but if he encounters a frightened child elsewhere and that child behaves in a similar way but for completely different reasons, he may not be able to tell the difference and the child may well trigger a behavioral pattern of chase and tackle the kid because that behavior was fun and rewarding in the past.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Maya,

For some additional reading, you might want to check this website out. Lots of good stuff there, including some really good advice on the common concerns and issues raising puppies.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/library.htm


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Solid advice, Chris, much more articulate than I was!



> Quote:if he encounters a frightened child elsewhere and that child behaves in a similar way but for completely different reasons, he may not be able to tell the difference and the child may well trigger a behavioral pattern of chase and tackle the kid because that behavior was fun and rewarding in the past.


Yep. This is why I taught my kids to stop and cry. My DD shrieks, Otto hates that. My oldest boy yells, Otto hates that. My younger son goes with either. At 13 months, Otto knows if there's a shrieking or yelling kid, Mom's coming and oppps, I'm in trouble.


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## GSDinOly (Apr 19, 2009)

When my pup went through this stage, what worked best was being consistant in corrections. Basically what I did was every time she got rough(and wow did it hurt), everything just stopped. I did, I ignored her, the toys got picked up, and she was told in the stern voice NO BITE! Then, immidiately after I put a toy to her mouth, but wouldn't let her take it until she took it gently and nicely. Then we played tug or chase(I pulled it on the floor around for her to chase.) When she jumped up on me outside, same thing. Stopped. NO! Down! Then toy or treat. She got it after about a week maybe two, ....but I did this EVERYTIME she did it, which felt like a hundred times, over and over. Eventually, she learned to run and chase us, but to control her jumping AND biting pant legs and hands. She is told what a good, good girl she is all the time she acts so ladylike LOL! It's your tone of voice and body language that does this trick. 
I would say as an explanation of calm being that you must stop all actions and get a calm authoritive, no playing "atmosphere". Puppy will look at you like "what happened". So, the playing must stop momentarily to get that attention, and NO BITE or NO JUMP, Down, whatever you'd like to use. Have the kids do this and you there to reinforce it. It will take some time, but I am certain your children can learn these things also and it will work out very well. 
On discipline, I would say you take control there and do time outs. Sometimes, pups get SOOO fired up that listening just becomes non existant. So, times out can be either: taking toys away and ignoring the puppy. No eye contact, etc. Puppy is invisible. Or, wait a few minutes(at least 5) after the final failed NO, and take puppy to the crate and give him a treat in the crate and make the crate a positive still, saying good boy etc etc. They don't know they are in trouble, but at the same time they're like" wait a sec...I can't play now." Then outta the crate 15 min later! OR a time out could be just putting puppy inside the door for a few minutes, and going back out. This worked as well. (the will throw a fit, yes, but they learn that if they bite or jump it separates them from all the fun, and is NOT acceptable.) Just a few minutes is all it takes. Be consistant, and soon your pup will be terrific. He'll know what is good playing.
My hubby and I will go outside and play with Brigitte. We DO race around and act like fools. We play a silly game called pass the puppy. She runs back and forth between us and passes through our legs, circles, then goes back to the other person and shoots through. She does not bite or jump whatsoever, and she is REALLY lit up then LOL. If we stop running and she is near us, or runs to us, she is just plastered to our legs as close as can be, but she won't jump or grab a leg.


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## GSDinOly (Apr 19, 2009)

After I posted my message, I saw that others wrote at the same time! Much more articulate than me too LOL......


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

There is a sticky thread here on the board with tips on bite inhibition too: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=153716&page=1#Post153716



> Originally Posted By: MayaBut how do you put a pup in timeout if he doesn't stay still? I know the crate is in NO way to be used as punishment.


Not necessarily - as Chris said, it's not punishment per se. Think of it as an interruption of behavior you don't like and want to discourage. Preventing bad habits is MUCH easier than allowing them to form in the first place and then having to fix it later. Any behavior that won't be funny and cute when he's 80 pounds should not be permitted now. He can learn to play appropriately, but you're going to have to teach him, and it's also very important that your kids know how to not get him all worked up. I had toys everywhere too, so there was always something within reach, and I'd often stuff one in my pocket just so I knew there was one handy. You can also start teaching him to take and give up toys on cue, and that he must not jump up or take things from your hand until released to do so. I would definitely do this since you've got little kids who are easily injured by sharp puppy teeth. Keefer used to be really bad about jumping at toys so I taught him that the way to get the toy was to ignore the toy. Same thing with food. You can stare at the food all day, you can try and get the food as much as you want, but it will not happen, EVER. Look away from it and at me, and I'll release it to you immediately. You'd be amazed at how quickly dogs learn this. 

I've used a crate for timeouts for years, and it never made my dogs view their crates any differently or not want to go in there. Even when Dena & Keefer were adult dogs I would sometimes still do timeouts when they got too rowdy in the house. Usually it was when I was in the bedroom getting ready for work or when I came home and was changing after work, and the crates were right there. I'd tell them to settle down, they'd blow me off, so I'd say "that's it - timeout!" and they'd run to their crates. At first I'd toss a treat in there to get them to go in, but eventually I didn't need to do that anymore, and the funny thing was after a while I could simply ask them "do you want a timeout?" and they'd stop what they were doing immediately. 

With Cassidy, who was a total wild child, I did timeouts a lot because it was the only way to get her to calm down. And for her there was an element of punishment in that removal of our attention was the only thing that really got her attention and made an impact, so when she acted inappropriately I would put her away immediately for a short timeout. I'd let her back out in a minute or two and if she returned to the behavior, "oops, timeout!" again. A couple of tries, and I'd leave her in there to cool her jets for awhile and she usually ended up taking a little nap and coming out much subdued. She did seem to make the connection between playing nice or playtime would end and we'd go away, and she learned that she controlled the situation - as long as she played by the rules, playtime would continue.


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaSolid advice, Chris, much more articulate than I was!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


THIS, I could do! I didn't want to involve my girls into disciplining, so telling my girls to fake a cry, or scream "OUCH!" they would be pro's at doing (since my eldest is a drama queen, she'll be able to teach my youngest too) lol So this sound like a wonderful idea to me! The timeouts sounded great, but I KNOW for a fact there's no way he'd stay in 1 spot for more than 2-5 seconds.


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI've used a crate for timeouts for years, and it never made my dogs view their crates any differently or not want to go in there. Even when Dena & Keefer were adult dogs I would sometimes still do timeouts when they got too rowdy in the house. Usually it was when I was in the bedroom getting ready for work or when I came home and was changing after work, and the crates were right there. I'd tell them to settle down, they'd blow me off, so I'd say "that's it - timeout!" and they'd run to their crates. At first I'd toss a treat in there to get them to go in, but eventually I didn't need to do that anymore, and the funny thing was after a while I could simply ask them "do you want a timeout?" and they'd stop what they were doing immediately.


LOVE THIS!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Maya
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI've used a crate for timeouts for years, and it never made my dogs view their crates any differently or not want to go in there. Even when Dena & Keefer were adult dogs I would sometimes still do timeouts when they got too rowdy in the house. Usually it was when I was in the bedroom getting ready for work or when I came home and was changing after work, and the crates were right there. I'd tell them to settle down, they'd blow me off, so I'd say "that's it - timeout!" and they'd run to their crates. At first I'd toss a treat in there to get them to go in, but eventually I didn't need to do that anymore, and the funny thing was after a while I could simply ask them "do you want a timeout?" and they'd stop what they were doing immediately.
> ...


Use your best "mom" voice!







Or what is sometimes referred to around here at the VOICE OF GOD. My hubby has a much better VOG than I do, but I can pull one out when I need it. 

One thing that will probably amaze you is how smart this breed is. Other dogs learn commands, GSDs learn complete sentences! I'm sure they're just reacting to my tone of voice and body language, but still it's pretty darned funny when they put on that "uh oh, we're in trouble now" demeanor when they get the warning.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Good point about the mom voice. Shepherd pups are different in that they're dogs but many of the child rearing theories apply.

Your pup will come to understand when you raise your voice, somebody is in trouble. If it's my kids getting a loud lecture over how not to keep their bedrooms (becuase I stepped on a lego structure hidden under blankets!), Otto comes running, climbs in my lap and starts kissing me like Oo ooo it's not me this time, I'm so good, kiss me, I luv you


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Brady does the same thing HAHAHAHAHAHA

especially when Ronnie goes off B runs and jumps on my lap


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## Bailey's Momma (Jul 9, 2009)

Yeah, I'm the authoritive person in the house for certain. My husband goes, "Hey buuuuuuuuuddy, don't bite, it's okay!" in a cutesy voice. LOL No way is that happening with me! I know that if I mean business, I need to sound it -- same with the kids. If they're in trouble, they know it with the EYES OF GOD. lol The look of death! lol I don't scream at my kids, always positive reinforcement and good parenting -- same that will happen with Bailey. I'm a leader, not a follower.


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