# Louisiana Rescue, HW+, scared, not potty trained (?)



## GatorBytes

But she is sooo cute!!!


Yesterday I went to this adoption event (see link)
Welland SPCA saves 150 'starving' U.S. dogs, up for adoption this weekend - Hamilton - CBC News


SO many dogs, SO many people, SO much barking. Huge event type tent set up in parking lot. 2 10x15' fenced area's you could take dog of choice to to see how they interact.
There were 3 Humane societies involved, 1 was from approx. 5 hrs away. It's a 4 day event. The dogs stay in tent in crates all weekend.


I spent about 5 hrs there, petted every single dog, took a couple out for walk as they seemed distressed/trembling. They were better after.
But this one little girl, she just stayed tucked away from people, flattened her back end when couple people tried to take her out. She was so quiet. Not a sound.


Anyhow, I was contemplating leaving, but decided that she needed a walk on some grass - not just go in the fenced area.
She couldn't care less about me or anybody.
I was about to return to tent, when a volunteer mentioned for $50 deposit you can take them home for night. 
I decided to spring her. 
Now I have 5 hrs left before she has to be back, to make a decision


She is listed as a shepherd x, but she's maybe 30lbs. I believe tag said 4 yrs old.
When I took her inside to give deposit, they scanned her microchip and file showed she is HW+


Now what do I do???


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## dogma13

Uh oh!I see a battle between heart and brain ensuing.I'm one of those whose heart usually wins out over my better judgement.


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## GatorBytes

dogma13 said:


> Uh oh!I see a battle between heart and brain ensuing.I'm one of those whose heart usually wins out over my better judgement.



They told me the HW treatment was covered by adoption fee ($400). 3 injections. Don't know what stage she is at. Don't know if she is a result of the floods.
I took her for a couple fair walks and a few spins around the yard and house. But she wants to pee when we come back inside.


I don't have a crate but if I decide to adopt, then I will purchase.
I took her out at 6am, she did pee. wouldn't poop
I went back to bed for 10 mins while waited for coffee to brew and she pee'd on mat in kitchen. I stepped in it getting coffee. It's an anti-fatigue (rubber) mat and I couldn't see the mess.
She has pee'd in same spot on rug 3x now. I used vinegar and then put towel over, so now she's peeing on towel, lol


She looks like a mini shepherd, markings, ears, tail, body shape...her face, sort of, but more like a mutt.


She has really warmed up to me


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## ksotto333

Aw, she'll fill that empty space in you as much as you fill the one in her.


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## GatorBytes

ksotto333 said:


> Aw, she'll fill that empty space in you as much as you fill the one in her.



Or puts another hole in heart if she dies from HW treatment.


The rescue said treatment doesn't start until Oct. 


She is resting on G's old bed. Had it vac-sealed in basement


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## Stevenzachsmom

Do it! Do it!


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## cheffjapman

Wow, $400 adoption fee? That is steep! 

And my heart usually wins too. If I were in your shoes, I would probably have another dog!


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## Magwart

I'm going to PM you contact info for working through the HW. Every foster I deal with has HW. It's something we deal with in LA constantly. I'm used to it, and I've dealt with mild and severe cases, and I've only ever lost one dog....but I _have _lost one dog (out of many treated), and we lost her despite emergency care by experts at the vet school...but she had a lot of underlying problems and very advanced disease.

The bottom line is that I'm so used to dealing with HW successfully that I don't even care when shelters tell me a dog is HW+. It doesn't even factor into my pull decision any more -- it's just something that's "normal" to us, and we're very comfortable with it. We've placed close to 200 dogs that survived HW, and they're happy, healthy, and recovered. Two of my three personal dogs are HW survivors. It's just something we deal with in rescue down here. I have a 12 y.o. HW survivor in my house right now -- he went through fast-kill injections at 6 y.o., and he's still strong and healthy as a senior!

That said, I want you to go into this with eyes open -- if I were in your shoes, I'd take the dog, but I know what I've dealing with.

There are no natural options to get rid of HWs. I've read and read and read looking...these are nasty, nasty parasites. I _hate _that 3-shot treatment with a purple passion, so if there were a natural way to handle this, I'd be all over it. I follow the vet literature on HW research very closely. I have one of the most open-minded, creative, out-of-the box thinking evidence-based vets that I've ever known -- if there's a natural solution that works, she'll use it because she makes no distinction between camps or philosophies -- stuff either works or doesn't, and she wants what's safe, affordable and effective for her clients. She works with the best rescues in our region (including Villalobos, on Animal Planet)...we beg and plead to become her clients because she's SO good and SO smart. If there's a cheaper, less risky way to get a dog healthy, she's on it. We know of absolutely nothing to save HW+ dogs that's natural, unfortunately.

Not treating isn't an option. Dogs with advanced, untreated HW die a miserable, pain-filled death. So she needs a plan. Part of what you may have to wrestle with is whether you can make peace with heavy-duty pharmaceuticals to get her through this....and I know that's tough. And this particular drug is nasty -- you know I'm not dogmatic about pharma and I'll use anything that helps, but dang this one is rough.

There's lots of stuff to figure out -- HW+ should not have been transported up north, but now that it's happened, you've got to deal with it -- and you've got two things to worry about (1) this dog's long-term health, and (2) the community health:

1. Does she have circulating microfilariae? A vet or good vet tech needs to do a smear slide to look under the microscope-- not a regular HW test. They need to do this ASAP -- it's urgent. 

If she has microfilariae, she's infectious, and it's summer, so every mosquito is an opportunity for her to transmit this to northern dogs that aren't on prevention. Keeping her away from mosquitoes is HUGELY important. Worse, Louisiana has confirmed that we have ivermectin-resistant HWs (they're still rare, but there's no way to know if the ones in them are this strain or not) -- so she could be introducing a bad, bad, bad form of HW into the community. We see a lot of break-through infections of dogs that are on Heartguard-type products now...so this is NOT something you want in Canada. Microfilariae need to be killed off immediately!

2. She needs to be on prevention, monthly with no winter break. Forget what you've read about that because we're not worrying about getting new worms in Canada: we're worrying about killing the baby ones she's already got in her, and not letting them reproduce. Prevention helps with the young ones that she traveled north with, as they're already growing inside her. 

In LA, the best thing we're using is Advantage Multi. It's so effective for HW+ dogs that every HW+ in our rescue has to be on it, and not anything else. It is US FDA-approved to get rid of microfilariae, too. I know you won't like that kind of toxic pesticide, but it's the only one that has documented NO resistance. And....it's the best of some crappy options. It's topical, so we just don't see the bad reactions that sometimes pop up with other stuff (like Trifexis).

It is absorbed through the skin and builds up to steady state in the blood after 3-4 months, and once that happens, HWs start dying....just from the prevention product. So even if you don't do fast kill treatment, if you keep her on it til she tests negative, she _will_ test negative eventually. 

3. The standard treatment requires Doxycycline for 30 days, at a pretty high dose (10mg/kg is optimal). You're not going to like that either. It's better tolerated than many other abx, but it's still a long-term abx course. It's necessary to kill a symbiotic bacteria that live in the HWs and cause lots of damage (including some of the things that make HW so deadly). This 30-day course is supposed to be repeated every 6 mo. if you do slow kill. It's expensive, but compounding pharmacies like Wedgewood can save you money.

4. She needs to be on prevention for at least 3 mo. to kill the baby HWs before you decide about fast-kill. If you do fast kill, I would wait for cool weather (fall/winter is ideal)--there's less risk of complication, though it's not clear why. The reason is that the immiticide doesn't kill the juveniles, and they could be outside the range of the prevention too -- if you do immiticide too soon, you could have to do it again when the juveniles grow up, and that's to be avoided at all costs.

5. Prednisone. The standard treatment with immiticide shots also puts them on a low-dose of pred for a long time to minimize the chance of life-threatening complications during fast-kill treatment. Yep, abx + pred is the gold-standard treatment recommended by the AHWS as part of this fast-kill treatment with the three-shot protocol.  

6. Fast kill or slow kill? I've done both. AHWS recommends fast kill (immiticide), always -- that's what your rescue is offering you. It's worth about $1000 at retail, and if that's included in the adoption fee, it's a good deal.

I'm on the fence about immiticide -- like I said, I've had a dog die during fast-kill, and statistically about 10% of them have major complications. It's the gold standard, since it kills the worms faster so they have less time to do damage -- that's why the rec is so strong about doing it as the preferred treatment. 

Even when there are no complications, I want to be honest that it's likely one of the hardest treatments you'll ever experience with a dog, and your dislike of Pharma will grow exponentially. It's _rough._

It's a form of arsenic, big fat doses of arsenic administered deep in the muscle with a ginormous needle. It's so painful that they need an NSAID for a few days (yep, add that to your list of drugs in this cocktail...) -- some dogs are lame and unable to stand for a couple of days, and they moan in pain. They'll be incredibly lethargic for several days too. It's very hard to watch. 

During immiticide treatment, you have to keep them on strict crate rest for 2 mo.--STRICT -- even going outside to potty has to be on leash. They can get NO exercise. The heartrate can't get elevated. The reason? As worms die, they embolize in the lungs, landing in the capillary beds. You want them to die and embolize slowly, one or two at a time. With a fast heartrate, a clump of dead worms can break off at once and clog a pulmonary artery. That can create a life-threatening emergency. If the emergency happens, they can die quickly, gushing blood out of their nose and mouth -- they have to be rushed to a vet ICU with an O2 tent and supportive care if there are any complications. When I have a dog going through this in rescue, I work with fosters to know the fastest route to the closest emergency vet, even in the middle of the night....because even though the chance is very low that they'll need it, you have to move fast if it happens.

So...assuming no complications, which is likely ... if all goes well, you've put the dog on abx for 30 days, on pred for 2-3 months, injected it with arsenic 3 times, and killed the adult HWs. As you well know, now you set about rebuilding health. It's a crappy, crappy situation, but death from HW is worse, so my HW dogs stay on probiotics, bovine colostrum and other goodies through treatment and beyond. There are other heart-supporting supplements we can talk about if you get her.

7. Slow kill as an option? The old way of doing slow kill was put them on a very low dose of ivermectin prevention that killed the worms in 2-3 years. During that time, they're in there doing major damage to the heart, lungs, and circulatory system. Some vets theorize that they'll have shorter lives if that happens.

Somehow, some way, vets in the trenches in LA (where more than half of big dogs are HW+ and most people can't afford immiticide treatment) figured out that you could use Advantage Multi for slow kill, with doxy. We've used it for several years. Other vets in other places thought it was nuts, until researchers associated with AHWS came out with published paper recently showing that we aren't nuts -- it does actually kill HWs. The fastest I've had a dog test negative with Doxy, Advantage Multi, and no other treatment is 9 mo. (compared to 5 mo. for fast kill -- 3 mo. of prevention, 2 mo. of shots). I've had a few take 18 mo. Lost and lots (big majority) of rescue dogs have tested negative at 12 mo. So I think of this as "intermediate kill" (not as slow as ivermectin, but not as fast as immiticide). 

The kicker is we don't have to put them on strict crate rest during this. They can walk (but not jog). They can play and be normal dogs who just don't exercise hard. That's doable. We don't yet know if these dogs will have shorter lives, but we just haven't seen any serious complications doing this. We know that it's working _really _well, esp. for dogs who have other issues that prevent them from going through immiticide treatment. So we do both -- some dogs who are good candidates for immiticide get it, others who aren't get Advantage Multi, and we do our best to just get as many of them cured one way or the other as we can.

8. How advanced is the disease? Are there any clinical signs yet (excercise intolerance, tiring easily, fluid retention, and esp. coughing)? Have they done a chest xray? That, too, is part of the AHWS gold-standard protocol. If not, if the dog doesn't have clinical signs, I probably would save the money. It never changes anything. It's nice to know how many worms there are, but so what? You still treat one way or the other. OTOH, if the dog has clinical signs and we're looking at advanced disease, I would do the chest x-ray. 

Dogs with advanced disease go into Caval Syndrome fast, and without warning -- the key sign is their pee turns red like wine. The HWs then are moving inside the chest and killing the dog in the end-stage. At that point they need emergency surgery to pull the worms out of the dog manually -- it's super-high-risk surgery, and you may not even find anyone in Canada who's done much of it (it's something some southern vets have too much practice with, unfortunately). If this dog were to have advanced disease and might be at risk of Caval syndrome, I would think twice...but if she doesn't have a cough, isn't full of fluid in her chest and tummy (bloated-looking)...you're probably okay. 

Note: Advantage Multi is marketed as Advocate in some markets outside the US. I'm not sure which one Bayer uses in Canada. It's a RX-only product.


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## Stevenzachsmom

cheffjapman said:


> Wow, $400 adoption fee? That is steep!
> 
> And my heart usually wins too. If I were in your shoes, I would probably have another dog!


But that $400 would include the actual HW treatment. That is dirt cheap.


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## Magwart

Oh -- and if she's a flood dog -- then we've got other stuff to talk about. 

I was located in the center of LA flood waters last August -- we had foster homes being pulled out by the Cajun Navy with 6 feet of water in their house. Our volunteers pulled dogs out of the muck. My vet's clinic flooded. I know that flood water all too well -- it was a Witch's Brew of petrochemicals (gasoline and oil from cars), raw sewage (septic tanks and sewer contents), landfill leachate, etc. Nearly every dog that came out of it had skin issues for a good long time that had to be worked through. We had an epidemic of dogs with skin issues for months after that.

Maybe think of it this way. If you can force yourself to get through the pharma treatment, this dog needs you -- it needs a raw diet, good supplements, and healthy living to rebuild her heatlh after the toxic onslaught she experienced. You're probably in a better position to rebuild her health than a lot of people, after she gets through her treatment!


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## Magwart

Here's the AHWS guide about treatment from 2014 (before the article on Advantage Multi and young adult HWs came out, and about the time Auburn's study on resistance came out). Starting around p. 15, there's discussion of the "adjuncts" (pred and doxy). This is the official "party-line" standard of care in conventional veterinary medicine :
https://heartwormsociety.org/images/pdf/2014-AHS-Canine-Guidelines.pdf


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## Sunsilver

Wonderful info Magwart! You're a real credit to this board!


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## ksotto333

GatorBytes said:


> Or puts another hole in heart if she dies from HW treatment.
> 
> 
> The rescue said treatment doesn't start until Oct.
> 
> 
> She is resting on G's old bed. Had it vac-sealed in basement


She'll put a hole in your heart no matter when she dies, it's the worst part of loving any dog or person. But life is empty without putting your heart out there to risk. What did you decide?


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## Magwart

Aw, thanks, Sunsilver.

I'm on pins and needles waiting for news of the fate of this "Louisiana Little" (as I call the minis that are so common down here)....


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## GatorBytes

Everyone. Update for now. I went and adopted her!


Right now I am exhausted as she has been having a horrible bought of diarrhea and I have been taking her out every half hr, but she unloads when she comes in so been cleaning up. Run out of towels, my place stinks, I haven't eaten or showered and its after 1 am.


Maggie, I did read your novel, and really really really appreciate the PM and all the time you took to write that post, thank you so much! I knew you would be there and so happy for your wealth of knowledge. Props.


I am going to make a batch of slippery elm syrup before bed, that I just remembered I had, have a shopping list for tomorrow of doggie belly needs. Going to book vet app for Monday if can get, unless I can get tomorrow, but sat and close at noon...


She is resting now. Curled up on a memory foam bed. Not feeling well, but at least she is not feeling well here rather then in a crate at an adopt-a-thon.
(Come to think about it, there was a lady walking thru there over treating the dogs. No one stopped her...milkbones some other type of garbage bones like milkbones and some smoked chews. She just grabbed handfuls and walked past all the cages handing them out...she wasn't being malicious, but I did mention to her that this was stressfull to the dogs and they may not tolerate well.)
Cheers


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## Sunsilver

Gator, from what you've said about her elimination habits, it sounds like someone trained her to use puppy pads. So, maybe you need to buy some, and teach her to use them outside, instead of indoors!

Yeah, I found out with one of my pups that too much of certain doggie treats can cause stomach upset. Stress could be a factor, too. Best of luck with her...


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## Sabis mom

I was not in Walmart that long!
Care to explain how you failed to mention this?? 
And why no pictures? She sounds perfect for you I am glad you found her.


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## Stevenzachsmom

So very happy for you and this dear pup. Getting ready to go on vacation - so thrilled I got to read this before I leave. Thank you for taking a chance on her. You rock!


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## Heartandsoul

I have to say she is in the best hands and heart possible with wonderful help surrounding her. I'll be in the mostly reading and cheering you on section. 

Wishing you both the very best.


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## MyHans-someBoy

I know you are probably still exhausted, but when you get rested up, we are going to need some PICTURES and a name for this very lucky girl. 

So, so happy for you both!!


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## ksotto333

I'm so glad to hear. And yes, I believe pictures are a requirement.


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## GatorBytes

Sunsilver said:


> Gator, from what you've said about her elimination habits, it sounds like someone trained her to use puppy pads. So, maybe you need to buy some, and teach her to use them outside, instead of indoors!
> 
> Yeah, I found out with one of my pups that too much of certain doggie treats can cause stomach upset. Stress could be a factor, too. Best of luck with her...


I picked some up at Petsmart when I signed her over to me. Only bought 10 pack as the rest were XL and in 50 or 150 count. I was hopeful that it was just her being unsure what to do. But with this spilling of poo I am almost out.
The training her outside to use them is an AWESOME idea! I was going to bring out one she pee'd on and use to mark spot where to go, but if she can pee on it outside then bonus. I think that will work. Cheers!



Sabis mom said:


> I was not in Walmart that long!
> Care to explain how you failed to mention this??
> And why no pictures? She sounds perfect for you I am glad you found her.



Ha! You got the first pic! 
And I know, I should have told you sooner. Been overwhelmed with this decision, my friend was here..then her (the dog) peeing everywhere, then pooing everywhere, No food in me for 24 hrs. etc. etc. 



Stevenzachsmom said:


> So very happy for you and this dear pup. Getting ready to go on vacation - so thrilled I got to read this before I leave. Thank you for taking a chance on her. You rock!


Aww, thank you! Enjoy your vaycay, and when you are back I should have lots of pics and hopefully happy stories about her



Heartandsoul said:


> I have to say she is in the best hands and heart possible with wonderful help surrounding her. I'll be in the mostly reading and cheering you on section.
> 
> Wishing you both the very best.


You have always been a great support. I thank you for that 



MyHans-someBoy said:


> I know you are probably still exhausted, but when you get rested up, we are going to need some PICTURES and a name for this very lucky girl.
> 
> So, so happy for you both!!



Pics to come soon! hopefully later this eve.
As for name (here current is Frosty, she came up from the states with that and seems to know it) my friend and I were joking about how to use Louisiana or something southern...NO to Belle BTW, lol
So we broke down to Louise then Anna...As we were talking she told me of her Aunt Louise and how they called her Wheezie...Maybe? IDK.
I had applied for a whippet x last month, and was declined, but I had come up with Ziggy for her, so maybe that. 
Have to see what suits her as we go.


Open to suggestions!



ksotto333 said:


> I'm so glad to hear. And yes, I believe pictures are a requirement.



Thank you!


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## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> Aw, thanks, Sunsilver.
> 
> I'm on pins and needles waiting for news of the fate of this "Louisiana Little" (as I call the minis that are so common down here)....


I love that "Louisiana Little" so cute!


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## kelbonc

What a lucky girl to have you rescue her. I'm sure she will bring you much joy!! Enjoy getting to know each other and I look forward to some photos as well and your updates. :smile2:


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## Magwart

YAY!!!!! I'm so happy for you. I know you're in for a lot of work putting her back together, but she's very lucky to have you.

I have my own Louisiana Little in my personal pack, Fiona. I have a soft spot for them. Mine came to me as a 6 mo. old, shut down and paralyzed with fear after the shelter euthanized her mother in front of her. Fiona had to watched her mama die at the shelter, but the euthanasia staff relented when it was the pup's turn because she was so young. They gave her one more day, having already traumatized her. Someone called me, and I got her out. She would splay on her tummy on the sidewalk at the bottom of the driveway, too scared to walk on leash. She would quake in fear going anywhere new. It was a long road, but she's a different dog now -- friendly and happy....and she's my Rehabilitator in Chief with foster dogs. She has an uncanny ability to read what my foster dogs need. She is the one who can reach them and teach them to trust when nothing else works. There are a lot of dogs who became adoptable because of _her_. She was a gift from Upstairs to help, and I'm so grateful. I think your Little will bring you some special gift too!

Name and pictures??? Oops, just saw the name is still a work in progress. Can't wait for you to post pictures!


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## carmspack

== name? Big Easy -- hope it does turn out to be just that .


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## llombardo

I'm beyond thrilled that you chose her. You got this--all of it. 

Maybe she was an outside dog to begin with? I know Robyn was really young when I got her, but she had lived outside so she peed in the house and laid down outside. You will probably have start from scratch with potty training line she is a puppy. No UTI?


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## GatorBytes

carmspack said:


> == name? Big Easy -- hope it does turn out to be just that .


 
Thanks Carm, but no such luck...Vet app today. I got a sick doggie, but she is doing very well otherwise. 



llombardo said:


> I'm beyond thrilled that you chose her. You got this--all of it.
> 
> Maybe she was an outside dog to begin with? I know Robyn was really young when I got her, but she had lived outside so she peed in the house and laid down outside. You will probably have start from scratch with potty training line she is a puppy. No UTI?


 
Aww, thanks, I know you can appreciate adopting with all you have done with your pack, the fostering strays and rehoming, saving doves, the kitties...


No UTI that I can tell, she doesn't pee often. No straining of frequent dribbles of false squats. Will not pee outside at all. She does (now), start showing me time to go poop though...but she has been very sick (no vomiting, just diarrhea), so I am blowing through pee pads!


IDK if she was outside, or locked in a room or garage, she is afraid of the door closing on her, so as we come in we have to walk way in and then I can go back and close. Even closing it behind as we are going onto deck she looks at it fearful...but last night got a little better.


She does not want to meet people or dogs. She stands back tail tucked, but doesn't cower.


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## GatorBytes

*Pictures of the Louisiana Little *

SO what does she like she is crossed with?


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## Sunsilver

With her coat looking so very shepherd-y, it's very hard to make an educated guess! You said she was about 30 lbs? She looks MUCH bigger in that last shot!


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## GatorBytes

Sunsilver said:


> With her coat looking so very shepherd-y, it's very hard to make an educated guess! You said she was about 30 lbs? She looks MUCH bigger in that last shot!


 
She can throw her paws up on counter no problem, She looks much bigger in pics, but she is little.
Her paperwork says 39 lbs. 
I'll find out today


Everyone we stop and talk to thinks she's a puppy...


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## dogma13

She's a pretty little thing!Loving the expressive face!I like Annie or Luanne.


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## GatorBytes

dogma13 said:


> She's a pretty little thing!Loving the expressive face!I like Annie or Luanne.



I keep calling her "little one". I said to my friend who was here yesterday to dog sit while I took care of some things...
I should just call her "Lil"...she says L.I.L - Lost In Louisiana


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## Heartandsoul

Those big rounded eyes and the coloring across her head remind me of beagle so maybe that or some other hound breed mixed in. She's beautiful and fwiw, I love that name Lil and the acronym. The name also sounds very southern. What a sweetie.


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## Suki's Mom

She is cute!! I hope her health issues can be dealt with without complications. I am happy for you both!


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## Sunsilver

My first German shepherd was named Lili, after the old WWII song, Lili Marlene!

Her original owner named her Lassie, so I had to change it, and wanted a name that started with the same letter. So, chose the name of a German song for a German shepherd...though it was translated to nearly every language the war was being fought under.

The story behind the song: Lili Marlene - Telegraph


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## GatorBytes

Doing some digging on Little One...so far all I could find about this rescue from this group that partnered to help 


BARK - Boudreaux's Animal Rescue Krewe Thanks so much for saying that. We try very hard to bring up healthy and happy dogs! *These particular dogs are not really bark dogs - we partnered with welland humane society to help clean out a city shelter in Louisiana . However I must say I agree , they will probably turn out to be perfect. They have lived in overpopulated cages for long months and some years*. We wish all these beautiful animals a great start to a new beginning!!!!


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## dogma13

Lil is perfect!


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## Sabis mom

GatorBytes said:


> I keep calling her "little one". I said to my friend who was here yesterday to dog sit while I took care of some things...
> I should just call her "Lil"...she says L.I.L - Lost In Louisiana


Buddy gothis name because I kept saying hey buddy as I approached his crate.
Sometimes they pick their own names.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Gator Bytes just saw this today. Glad you got this little cutie. Thnaks for giving her a home. She is adorable. She doesn't look that small stretched out on your deck..


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## Magwart

I'm so happy for Lil! (Lille?) I hope her tum-tum gets sorted out by the vet. 

She's probably had tummy issues for a good long time. The shelters tend to feed Science Diet, Pedigree, or a Purina food...depending on which one is doing a corporate sponsorship...and some of them can only feed once a day, barely even enough to maintain weight. Who knows what she ate before the shelter --Ol' Roy wouldn't surprise me -- it's a poor area she came from. I've come across a lot of dogs fed this one too because it's even cheaper --it gives you a snapshot of what life may have been like: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/retriever-hi-protein-dog-food-50-lb-bagAdd in parasites, protozoa, and other beasties that these dogs tend to be loaded with....and they just need a lot of GI care for a while. Her tummy has likely been trashed for a LONG time. My rescue friends and I do a happy dance whenever a new dog produces its first formed poo -- it's the first health milestone!


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## kelbonc

She (Lil - great name) is such a little cutie. Hope she feels better soon.


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## Sabis mom

I know I will get trashed for this but hey never cared much what others think.
EVERY rescue I have ever had did best on Pedigree. We found that by breaking feedings into small meals multiple times a day and slowly adding fresh food into their diets we greatly reduced the days of cleaning nastiness. 
Many big name kibbles are just too rich and a dog with a trashed tummy may not do well on raw food. The detox effect caused by raw can put more pressure on an already compromised system.
I found feeding multple small meals and gradually introducing raw meat berries and eggs cut recovery down considerably. My own dogs ate Pedigree for years and did well. Same diet. Smaller amount of kibble. Fresh fruit berries meat veggies and eggs.


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## ksotto333

Love the name "Lil" and her face. She reminds me a little of my mom's mix, cattle dog and mountain cur. Hope she's feeling better soon.


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## ksotto333

Sabis mom said:


> I know I will get trashed for this but hey never cared much what others think.
> EVERY rescue I have ever had did best on Pedigree. We found that by breaking feedings into small meals multiple times a day and slowly adding fresh food into their diets we greatly reduced the days of cleaning nastiness.
> Many big name kibbles are just too rich and a dog with a trashed tummy may not do well on raw food. The detox effect caused by raw can put more pressure on an already compromised system.
> I found feeding multple small meals and gradually introducing raw meat berries and eggs cut recovery down considerably. My own dogs ate Pedigree for years and did well. Same diet. Smaller amount of kibble. Fresh fruit berries meat veggies and eggs.


Years ago, only thing we could get our rescue to eat was Old Roy, with a raw egg on top. She did well on it, not that I feed it to my dogs now but sometimes the oddest things work.


----------



## GatorBytes

We went to vet today, thankfully only 7 mins away as she hates the van. Likely due to either transport by others or her transport here.


I stopped in yesterday to give them her paperwork so the vet would have info prior to visit. She has another client from Welland SPCA who is also HW+, I didn't quite get whether from same Louisiana 150, as there was another I found on google not too long ago. Apparently BARK (in LA) teams up 2x a yr with Fort Erie and or Welland to bring dogs up from there. However they were hoping the test was a mistake or samples mixed up...They had re-tested and the dog was indeed HW+ and will be going for treatment too through the SPCA. The vet said that she trusts it's likely correct (based on other client)...BUT, you never know...


So I opted for the 4Dx (also b/c of tick disease and since these can turn up as false negatives a retry isn't bad idea) "mini"? Upgrade to incl a CBC and Chem, but I doubt comprehensive. The vet did say checks protein, crea, Red and White etc. etc. By upgrading (only 25$ more), it reduced the fecal test by $15...


She put her on metro for a week. I asked for the Fortiflora before I left...2 weeks worth, in the interim, until I can get Carmspacks goodies. 
I didn't want to do metro, but because it is faster acting and covers more then Tylosin and because she was pooping blood (I won't get to graphic), yep...drugs (sigh)


I also picked up a bag of Gastro Hill's RX yesterday (I know you are saying "who is this!!")...No matter what kibble I give her she LOVES it...Bland diet or any safe human tummy food furgetaboutit...had to bribe her to eat rice, pumpkin, egg with a touch kibble. She picked out kibble. Hrs later and in small increments she eventually ate rest...But poop still poured out of her.


Her energy has been good, she drinking well along, counter surfer and wants food. Despite all the severe gastro issues, she wanted to eat.


Today she is doing really well, not needing to poop as often, although still soup...she has little bursts of playfulness (although cautious at same time)..


She has learned to block me for attention, leans on me, head up, smiling and curls her body as wags, and then flips around to lean from other side, too stinkin cute!


Oh, and she weighed in at 30 lbs!


----------



## GatorBytes

Holy Crap...or should I say none.
This dog has been going non stop since Friday. I started her on the RX kibble Mon. eve and although less frequent, still wet. She had a nominal amount just before vet app around 2 pm yesterday and as of 8am this morning hasn't gone. No accidents overnight, didn't even pee overnight, hasn't pee'd yet today...I've been up since 6am, we had coffee, went for walk, absolutely no indication she has to do either.


I started her on the metro around 5pm and second dose around 1030pm (per vet) with food both x
So she pee'd around 2pm yesterday (inside), then 11pm (inside)and nothing since
She pooped around 2pm yesterday. Nothing since (now 8am)
Note: we had short walk when back from vet around 4pm, then good walk at 7pm and another at 10pm. Nothing, Nada, zilch. 
And 20 min walk at 7am


She also started showing some bratty behaviour...indication of feeling better or more relaxed or side effect of drug??? Didn't start until 3-4 hrs after her meds


I've been called into a job I have been waiting to start. I need to crate her. What do I do???


----------



## Heartandsoul

Any chance instead of crating you have a room you can shut her in. I know she has issues with doors etc but it would give her more room for extra pee pads and room for her to avoid sitting in mess? Maybe a shelf to set up radio w/soft music? Any trusted neighbor to take her out for potty? Any chance if the notice for work was unexpected, you could ask for a day break or 1/2 day due to an important previous commitment. That would give you a little more time to figure out a doable routine for you and her.

Just throwing out ideas.


----------



## GatorBytes

Heartandsoul said:


> Any chance instead of crating you have a room you can shut her in. I know she has issues with doors etc but it would give her more room for extra pee pads and room for her to avoid sitting in mess? Maybe a shelf to set up radio w/soft music? Any trusted neighbor to take her out for potty? Any chance if the notice for work was unexpected, you could ask for a day break or 1/2 day due to an important previous commitment. That would give you a little more time to figure out a doable routine for you and her.
> 
> Just throwing out ideas.



I appreciate. I do not have a room I can put her in...
I actually do have a prior obligation, this job was supposed to have me on schedule this week. He was to text me last thurs with it. He didn't. I enquired Friday. He texted sat morning asking if I could come in that day to cover a shift. 1.5 hrs notice. I just got the dog, no crate set up, she had diarrhea and I couldn't pull it off so I said sorry but cannot do. He then said "try" and get me on schedule. He didn't. Well he texts me today, again, I have no confirmation that I have the job, no schedule and he's asking me to work.
I HAVE to go to an employment insurance informational thingy today or I will be cut off. I advised him. 


I would like to have worked, but the dog would be crated 8hrs and just started meds and I am very stressed out because of her not pooping in 19 hrs and not peeing since 11pm. Still hasn't and it's 930am


I dropped every hint to my friend to come and help me. She didn't offer. Even though I mentioned on Monday about this appointment...She did look after her on Mon. though


I will be gone about 3 hrs with this appointment. 
I crated her last night for an hour as she was being little brat and I needed some down time to eat and train her to accept it.


----------



## Heartandsoul

I have to head out but thought of this at the door. Any vet tech that may be off today that might be willing to donate some time to help you or for a small fee or maybe a rescue that you know whos helper or employee wh is off today may be willing. Just some more possible avenues you might consider to tap into. Might be worth a try to call the vet if you have a good relationship there.


----------



## GatorBytes

*Getting very worried*

As of 1pm she has not peed or pooped.


I called the clinic and spoke to receptionist who had told me they just got test results back. However Her vet isn't in today and will call me tomorrow to discuss "everything" and where to go from there (whatever that means).
Receptionist said she did test positive for roundworms and whipworms. So I know at least that. Not sure what her bloodwork may have uncovered. She could be anemic from the worms if this has been ongoing.
Heartgard is supposed to treat round worms though, so??? 


Clinic did go speak to on duty Vet (much to my prompting) about the lack of urination...Vet says not a concern at this time but if hasn't gone by morning then to call...well that would make it 36 hrs IF she hasn't gone by then...It's considered troubling by 48 hrs...but reading online 3-4 days can kill.


So I would think...lets not wait for 24hrs "to see" I am going to call at 5pm if she hasn't gone (it's 1:30pm now)


She has no symptoms. No distress, no seeming like she needs to go (for either), not licking there. She's sleeping lot's on and off. Very hot out so she lies in shade if on deck and I have the A/C going inside...she jumps at every chance she can to try and solicit food in the kitchen. She's up and following me when I go to do something (other then go online - then she sleeps)...she was super frisky, doing spins and dropping to floor and wagging her body (short lived as I don't want her to excited re: HW)...She has been walked twice so far...spunky, good energy, sniffing...But has given NO indication she has to pee


Clinic said that 24 - 48 hrs given her circumstances for not pooping is normal


And I asked about using panacur, but vet went with metro - pancur is needed for Whips. Sigh


----------



## GatorBytes

SHE JUST PEED!!!!
Phew. I feel better.
Now if she could just hit the pad a little better, lol


----------



## Magwart

The amount of dewormer in HG is not enough to treat. It's enough to prevent re-infection. I've never seen it (or any other HW preventative with dewormer) clear a worm infection.

Yep, you need panacur. 3 days of it will get the whipworms (though as I told you by PM, I prefer to go longer). Or else Drontal Plus (but it's a lot pricier). Whipworms can cause bloody diarrhea and can mess up the bloodwork too. Panacur Canine granules are the palatable option, but they cost more than the Panacur liquid (which you dose with a needleless syringe either by squirting in the mouth, or mixing with a lot canned food). The liquid tastes bad, but it's maybe half the price. A good friend had a foster dog spit the Panacur in her face, so she reported to me on the foul taste.


----------



## GatorBytes

Thank you Magwart...the receptionist was nonspecific about the roundworm, said "type" so now have it in my head about the rat lungworm. Vet will call tomorrow a.m. about test results.


I forgot to mention yesterday, She did say that she couldn't hear any murmur, an indication the HW load (if it's a load or just one female that resulted in positive test) was blocking a valve from closing. Said sounded good as well as the lungs.


The rescue said all the dogs were dewormed. But that means nothing really...


Forgot too, that the adoption comes with 6 week pet insurance up to $500 ($100 deductible), my bill was $315 + 25 when I added on fortaflora. So hopefully that will be worked out by the clinic and the Panacur will top off the balance (I bought panacur yrs ago for G and it was $100 - but that vet was a jerk)


I will ask about granules.


The metro is quite big, says not to crush as very bitter...I just shoved it down her throat, fired a few kibbles as a treat after, no problem. G was awesome for taking pills, so I am pretty good at giving 
But I suck at giving liquids.
I had to syringe slippery elm into her mouth as she wouldn't eat it. What an ordeal


----------



## Mary Beth

GatorBytes - I am so happy for you and Lil! She is so precious. Today while out walking I met a lady with with a small gsd that looks just like your Lil. Eight years ago, she found her starving on the streets of San Jose . Her dog is now 11 years-old and so healthy. That's the future, I see for you an Lil.


----------



## sitstay

I see Cattle Dog, especially in the hind end.
Sheilah


----------



## CarrieJo

GatorBytes said:


> But she is sooo cute!!!
> 
> 
> Yesterday I went to this adoption event (see link)
> Welland SPCA saves 150 'starving' U.S. dogs, up for adoption this weekend - Hamilton - CBC News
> 
> 
> SO many dogs, SO many people, SO much barking. Huge event type tent set up in parking lot. 2 10x15' fenced area's you could take dog of choice to to see how they interact.
> There were 3 Humane societies involved, 1 was from approx. 5 hrs away. It's a 4 day event. The dogs stay in tent in crates all weekend.
> 
> 
> I spent about 5 hrs there, petted every single dog, took a couple out for walk as they seemed distressed/trembling. They were better after.
> But this one little girl, she just stayed tucked away from people, flattened her back end when couple people tried to take her out. She was so quiet. Not a sound.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I was contemplating leaving, but decided that she needed a walk on some grass - not just go in the fenced area.
> She couldn't care less about me or anybody.
> I was about to return to tent, when a volunteer mentioned for $50 deposit you can take them home for night.
> I decided to spring her.
> Now I have 5 hrs left before she has to be back, to make a decision
> 
> 
> She is listed as a shepherd x, but she's maybe 30lbs. I believe tag said 4 yrs old.
> When I took her inside to give deposit, they scanned her microchip and file showed she is HW+
> 
> 
> Now what do I do???


Well that depends. What do you want to do? Are you wanting to keep her?

Does the shelter provide heartworm treatments, some don't. 

Read somewhere someone used scram parasite stuff of all things. But heartworms are serious and they can die from them. There are also other ways people on this site have listed a few.


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## CarrieJo

I have to stop reading from my phone it just had one post your first and nothing else. Didn't even realize all the time that had past! So now trying to read and catch up.


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## CarrieJo

She is SO cute!!


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## GatorBytes

*Test Results - Good and Bad*

The good...Her CBC and Chem values are all good (mostly) . Kidney, liver, protein, platelets...no anemia. 
Her glucose was on low end, however vet felt was due to all the diarrhea and worm load.


The fecal was able to find 2 types of whip worm, both will be covered by panacur (granules!)..whips are very hard to catch, so fact that able to find on fecal in order to know to treat for is great! (metro doesn't kill whips)
Neg. to Giardia (but we know that doesn't mean much)
Neg to Cociddia 


The bad...She tested positive for Anaplasmosis (neg. to Lyme and Ehrlichiosos), the Phagoctyophlum type (there is 2 types, the other affects platelets)
She is HW+ ...I was hoping for mistake  
She does have baby heartworms circulating in her blood (the vet says the rescue likely only did a snap test, explained it like a pregnancy test - the filter result, looking at smear under microscope showed this)
The vet wants her on doxy sooner then later (me too, Oct. way too far off)
Her white blood cells were low (anaplasmosis??? type she has affects whites)...not low persay, but low considering they should be elevated indicating fighting off infection. She says this is sign she has been sick for long time.


I think thats it for now.


----------



## Magwart

I just uttered a mass of curse words reading about the microfilariae. I was so afraid this was going to happen. Knowing to do a smear before transport is just something the people arranging the transport should have known to do...and the vet who signed off on the international health certificate. Crap. 

Sending you a PM about what needs to happen with educating the people who did the transport.

Yes, getting her on started on Doxy now is important. We usually start Doxy on day one coming out of the shelter, and if we're doing fast-skill, we start the 3 mo. countdown on prevention, and then schedule fast-kill at the end of that (= October). That will give her 2 months off of Doxy, after being dewormed, to get her body stronger to prepare for treatment -- that's better for her.


----------



## GatorBytes

*Update (short)*

Today I touched base with Carmen to order her products. Very first thing I thought of when they told me she was HW+ was Feed-Sentials (right after the whoa that is). 
With all that has been dumped on this little girl in such a short time and what is yet to come (now) and in a next 3-4 months...I am confident that this supportive care is going to make all the difference in how she responds and gets through this.
I am lucky to have the knowledge and contacts, resources and support from this forum to assist her and me along the way.
I don't imagine other doggies and the people who took these dogs on are so lucky. But I will try to get the word out.


Oh, and BTW, the vet loved the name Lil so much she incl. it in her paperwork with blood sample (with slash) "Frosty/Lil"...just in case that's what I changed to...When she phoned to tell me the dx she referred to Lil, LOL...but asked if ok...


----------



## llombardo

If I have to give pills I try to get turkey hearts and I put them right in the hole. Chicken hearts work to, but they are smaller. I figure it's easier then stressing the dog out. I could easily put down the throat but the hearts used as pill pockets works much better.


----------



## GatorBytes

llombardo said:


> If I have to give pills I try to get turkey hearts and I put them right in the hole. Chicken hearts work to, but they are smaller. I figure it's easier then stressing the dog out. I could easily put down the throat but the hearts used as pill pockets works much better.



That's a great idea!... especially for raw fed dogs...never thought of that with Gator, but I could pill him no problem. Liquids, no.


Been using Orijen kibble as treats (bought couple sample bags, heck of a lot cheaper then their actual treats), she doesn't inhale a treat, she takes it and chews.
Right from the get go with the metro...
I put her food in bowl, showed her the pill, told her if she wanted this she would have to take that. I just opened her mouth and stick it down her throat, gave her food.
The panacur granules, I use canned tripe, no chance she missed a single granule, she licked the bowl across the floor.


She is going on doxy for 3 weeks after the panacur...If I have to pill this dog for few months, she might as well learn. Thankfully she is food motivated (over the top!)


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Sounds like you and Lil are doing ok. She definitely landed where she has everything she could need or dream of. Soundslike her food motivation is a true plus. Thinking about you two. Give her a hug for me.


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## GatorBytes

*WOW, holistic vet.*

So after leaving a couple messages, my (G's rather) holistic vet called me back tonight.
I had left message outlining Lil's health issues and wanted to do phone consult after send blood work to her, along with conventional treatment she is on at this time as well as future.
I know that she IS going to get supportive therapy, but wanted help to make sure nothing contradicts, as well, not detox too fast, and get her "emotionally" stable, also to further aide in her recovery (she needs to be relaxed during treatment and die-off)






She told me, that a) she doesn't need to be treated for HW, and that treatment is highly toxic. She also told me that immiticide does not need to be used and that the US has a drug that kills as effectively with less toxicity. She said banned in Canada. Wouldn't tell me name of what is used, but said further, it is still used in Florida, Louisiana and other southern states and mostly at shelters.


THEN, she says...IF she is going to take her on, that I have to commit 100% to her protocol...and leave the rest behind...Said for me to take a couple days to think about..


BUT, If I choose to go on the path chosen so far...then said, I don't mean to sound (pause...lost word), "ignorant"....(my mental word search was crass.)..anyhow, implied, not to come to her for fallout.


Isn't it unethical to say to a client..."My way or the Hwy."?


I think her arrogance supersedes her integrity...


Not surprised really


Incidentally, Immiticide is not available in Canada either. Vets have to fill out special request "emerg" forms to have it shipped over boarder


----------



## dogma13

I vote for highway


----------



## GatorBytes

Lil got her package today!


She LOVED her extra special bonus that came with!!! Extra special THANK YOU to Carmen for this...means a lot....now how much do I give? She just licked it right out of the bowl, no mixing...


I gave her late night meal with small amount of canned tripe and a nominal amount (tsp.) of Feed-Sentials (to start off) and she hoovered it! She is such a foodie, lol.


Thank you so much Carm for expediting this...


I wish my Holistic vet wasn't so arrogant, I think she would support this product, however, I think we will part ways. I am looking into another holistic vet. At least my Conventional vet is on board with supportive therapies AND felt she should not have any pesticides for fleas and ticks (despite the surge this yr.), she wants to focus on ridding the worms, treating the anaplasmosis, immune support (my job as she cannot legally go there) to get Lil strong for what is the worst to come.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Doesn't need to be treated for heartworm?????


----------



## GatorBytes

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Doesn't need to be treated for heartworm?????



I think she meant in the manner prescribed - immiticide. She was short with return call.


I am interested in what she was referring to. Upon review of Magwarts very detailed and thoughtful post, I am wondering if she means Advantix (was that what was called?, so many). Have to go back and check this. But I am open to trying "intermediate" as Magwart referred.


I'm more miffed that she said all or nothing.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> During immiticide treatment, you have to keep them on strict crate rest for 2 mo.--STRICT -- even going outside to potty has to be on leash. They can get NO exercise. The heartrate can't get elevated. The reason? As worms die, they embolize in the lungs, landing in the capillary beds. You want them to die and embolize slowly, one or two at a time. With a fast heartrate, a clump of dead worms can break off at once and clog a pulmonary artery. That can create a life-threatening emergency. If the emergency happens, they can die quickly, gushing blood out of their nose and mouth -- they have to be rushed to a vet ICU with an O2 tent and supportive care if there are any complications. When I have a dog going through this in rescue, I work with fosters to know the fastest route to the closest emergency vet, even in the middle of the night....because even though the chance is very low that they'll need it, you have to move fast if it happens.
> 
> So...assuming no complications, which is likely ... if all goes well, you've put the dog on abx for 30 days, on pred for 2-3 months, injected it with arsenic 3 times, and killed the adult HWs. As you well know, now you set about rebuilding health. It's a crappy, crappy situation, but death from HW is worse, so my HW dogs stay on probiotics, bovine colostrum and other goodies through treatment and beyond. There are other heart-supporting supplements we can talk about if you get her.
> 
> 7. Slow kill as an option? The old way of doing slow kill was put them on a very low dose of ivermectin prevention that killed the worms in 2-3 years. During that time, they're in there doing major damage to the heart, lungs, and circulatory system. Some vets theorize that they'll have shorter lives if that happens.
> 
> Somehow, some way, vets in the trenches in LA (where more than half of big dogs are HW+ and most people can't afford immiticide treatment) figured out that you could use Advantage Multi for slow kill, with doxy. We've used it for several years. Other vets in other places thought it was nuts, until researchers associated with AHWS came out with published paper recently showing that we aren't nuts -- it does actually kill HWs. * The fastest I've had a dog test negative with Doxy, Advantage Multi, and no other treatment is 9 mo. (compared to 5 mo. for fast kill -- 3 mo. of prevention, 2 mo. of shots).  I've had a few take 18 mo. Lost and lots (big majority) of rescue dogs have tested negative at 12 mo. So I think of this as "intermediate kill" (not as slow as ivermectin, but not as fast as immiticide). *
> 
> *The kicker is we don't have to put them on strict crate rest during this. They can walk (but not jog). They can play and be normal dogs who just don't exercise hard. That's doable.* We don't yet know if these dogs will have shorter lives, but we just haven't seen any serious complications doing this. We know that it's working _really _well, esp. for dogs who have other issues that prevent them from going through immiticide treatment. So we do both -- some dogs who are good candidates for immiticide get it, others who aren't get Advantage Multi, and we do our best to just get as many of them cured one way or the other as we can.
> 
> 
> 
> Note: Advantage Multi is marketed as Advocate in some markets outside the US. I'm not sure which one Bayer uses in Canada. It's a RX-only product.


 
This ^^^
Not Advantix, ...Advantage Multi.
The conventional vet said something about Interceptor???? Forget the context.


----------



## Sabis mom

GatorBytes said:


> So after leaving a couple messages, my (G's rather) holistic vet called me back tonight.
> I had left message outlining Lil's health issues and wanted to do phone consult after send blood work to her, along with conventional treatment she is on at this time as well as future.
> I know that she IS going to get supportive therapy, but wanted help to make sure nothing contradicts, as well, not detox too fast, and get her "emotionally" stable, also to further aide in her recovery (she needs to be relaxed during treatment and die-off)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She told me, that a) she doesn't need to be treated for HW, and that treatment is highly toxic. She also told me that immiticide does not need to be used and that the US has a drug that kills as effectively with less toxicity. She said banned in Canada. Wouldn't tell me name of what is used, but said further, it is still used in Florida, Louisiana and other southern states and mostly at shelters.
> 
> 
> THEN, she says...IF she is going to take her on, that I have to commit 100% to her protocol...and leave the rest behind...Said for me to take a couple days to think about..
> 
> 
> BUT, If I choose to go on the path chosen so far...then said, I don't mean to sound (pause...lost word), "ignorant"....(my mental word search was crass.)..anyhow, implied, not to come to her for fallout.
> 
> 
> Isn't it unethical to say to a client..."My way or the Hwy."?
> 
> 
> I think her arrogance supersedes her integrity...
> 
> 
> Not surprised really
> 
> 
> Incidentally, Immiticide is not available in Canada either. Vets have to fill out special request "emerg" forms to have it shipped over boarder


Wow. Nice attitude. 
I would certainly not play that game. Shadow has a holistic vet and she is very aware that I have a conventional vet as well. No problems.
My dog my rules. No one gets to tell me what to do. And pretty sure they can't tell you no. I thought it was some violation for a vet to refuse care.


----------



## Magwart

I don't know of anyone treating HW with Interceptor, and I'm in LA, know lots of shelter vets , and have a private-practice vet with a huge rescue client-base. If they're doing it, they're not talking about it. It would actually surprise me for it to be going on and not hear about it, but it's possible. I _have _heard of a few vets trying the Proheart6 injection to kill HW -- I'm leery about it because it was pulled off the market briefly for severe side effects in old and sick dogs, so it's now labeled for use only in healthy/non-senior dogs...and thus using it in a HW+ dog seems risky to me. (It's an injection that is supposed to give 6 months of HW protection; it uses the same active ingredient as Advantage Multi, which is probably how someone got the idea to try it. However, it's a bigger dose, all at once via injection, compared to the the smaller "pulsed" topical dose of Advantage Multi....thus the risk profile is different.) We do have one HW+ dog in rescue now that some vet used Proheart on before we got her, and she's had no complications; now we're waiting to see how long til she clears...so I have no data points yet besides this dog. I've also heard of a few vets in the New Orleans area using Trifexis for slow-kill, and I'm personally not keen on that because that's a product that already has a lot of reports of side effects in _healthy_ dogs. We sometimes have to use slow/intermediate kill for high-risk dogs who can't go through immiticide, so I want to minimize risk and not take crazy chances on side effect cascades with them.

Advantage Multi (Advocate) is actually being studied for use this way -- so it's no longer a just weird thing done by vets with poor clients who can't afford immiticide. You can pass on this paper citation to your vet, so that she can read and you all can discuss it pros and cons -- Dr. McCall, one of the co-authors, is a former board member of the American HW Society, and has published several papers on HW treatment:
Chandrashekar et al., _Experimental Dirofilaria immitis infection in dogs: Effects of doxycycline and Advantage Multi®administration on immature adult parasites, _Veterinary Parasitoloty 206 (2014) 93-98
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.vetpar.2014.08.011
These same co-authors have another paper on juvenile HWs using the same method. This one here is the next iteration, showing it also works on young adult HWs. I have a hunch they're working on a third one, with older adult HWs, but that final iteration is the missing research puzzle piece.


----------



## Magwart

It's very ugly for a holistic vet to refuse to support you in rebuilding the dog and helping her through this tough treatment. 

It's absurd for the practice of veterinary medicine (of any flavor) to be treated like a religion, where you have to believe and accept all the tenets or you're excommunicated. I don't want to have to "believe" in any practitioner. I dislike evidence-based vets who scoff at all supplements and natural diets, based on no evidence; I also dislike holistic vets who scoff at all Western medicine based on mere personal feelings. The good ones use what works, talk respectfully and openly about pros and cons, read widely so that they know what's being researched, are willing to be proven wrong, can discern valuable modalities, and strive to protect clients from "snake oil." They're not dogmatic -- they're constantly searching. The goal is to partner with clients in finding real solutions, minimizing risks, and constantly learn along the way.

If that holistic vet went to vet school, she had to have studied science at some point. If she studied science she will have hopefully had some chemistry courses. Herbal healing functions using chemistry....the bioactive compounds in plants are "just" chemicals -- good and bad. Arsenic, which is what immiticide is made from, is "natural" (occurring in the environment), but that tells us nothing. The dose makes the poison.

It looks like Advantage Multi is sold under the Advocate brand-name in Canada:
https://www.canadavet.com/advocate-C157.aspx


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## GatorBytes

Thank you Marwart. I will have to dive into this a little further later. I am giving a rest between the panacur for few days before starting doxy.
I am going to send link to Conventional vet as well copy your informative posts and print off for her to have a copy and discuss. I am not sure what context Interceptor was mentioned.


As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.


Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it


----------



## Heartandsoul

GatorBytes said:


> As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
> But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
> She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.
> 
> Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it


Gatorbytes, I'm just offering my thoughts on this last part since Lil is looking at a difficult road, and assuming that the cost will be up there, if it were me, I wouldn't spend time or money in a vet that you are not completely comfortable with and confident of her expertise. I don't think that you or your pup can afford (time wise and emotional wise) a vet who has no issue with a my way/highway attitude.

If your regular vet has no problem working with or knowing that a holistic vet is also helping, maybe he knows of a good one whose only concern is giving your pup the best of chances.

I'm saying this because even though I like my allopathic (sp?) vet, there have been times where my questioning certain things turned out to be correct but my dog was healthy otherwise and I had the emotional stamina to research everything he had said. 

I cringed at your last sentence with her blaming you. That is unfathomable and I'm sorry for such a horrible thing that was said to you at a time when there should have been nothing but compassion.


----------



## GatorBytes

Heartandsoul said:


> Gatorbytes, I'm just offering my thoughts on this last part since Lil is looking at a difficult road, and assuming that the cost will be up there, if it were me, I wouldn't spend time or money in a vet that you are not completely comfortable with and confident of her expertise. I don't think that you or your pup can afford (time wise and emotional wise) a vet who has no issue with a my way/highway attitude.
> 
> If your regular vet has no problem working with or knowing that a holistic vet is also helping, maybe he knows of a good one whose only concern is giving your pup the best of chances.
> 
> I'm saying this because even though I like my allopathic (sp?) vet, there have been times where my questioning certain things turned out to be correct but my dog was healthy otherwise and I had the emotional stamina to research everything he had said.
> 
> I cringed at your last sentence with her blaming you. That is unfathomable and I'm sorry for such a horrible thing that was said to you at a time when there should have been nothing but compassion.



Thank you. I appreciate what you said. And yep. The vet, there is some pain there for sure...I left a message with her helper as well on voice mail...I specifically said I was looking at "supportive care" I didn't want to do anything that could contradict with all that is going on between disease and meds and toxicity from and her being underweight and traumatized...I want to get her in balance, and I thought she could help. She is a DVM, but maybe she is off her nut (IDK)...
If herbs (like Ashwagandha which I was thinking for emotional balance, and milk thistle for liver etc.) were going to contradict conventional meds...SHE WOULD KNOW...however...**** her!


----------



## Sabis mom

GatorBytes said:


> Thank you Marwart. I will have to dive into this a little further later. I am giving a rest between the panacur for few days before starting doxy.
> I am going to send link to Conventional vet as well copy your informative posts and print off for her to have a copy and discuss. I am not sure what context Interceptor was mentioned.
> 
> 
> As for the Holistic vet, I can make an appointment and see what she has to offer...I don't HAVE to do anything she wants...MY DOG
> But when I questioned not even giving her doxy, she said not even doxy (for anaplasmosis)...SHE gave Gator doxy, citing he had lyme...he didn't he never had lyme disease. It ripped his guts apart and turned his teeth yellow for nothing.
> She had scripted certain herbs...I don't do anything without looking into. One she sold me, there was laundry list of side effects. I never gave it. He died 6 months later of hemangio. She blamed me for not giving.
> 
> 
> Some things I trusted, some I didn't. And if I didn't, I didn't do it


She blamed you???
Oh I would be going to see her alright but it wouldnt be for a consult.


----------



## CarrieJo

OMG I am so sorry you are going through all of this. It is hard enough to be trying to help your dog without vet problems. 

I wish I knew more to help. But it is wrong for them to treat you this way. Heck my hubby and I went to a Dr when my son was 3 or 4 the Dr wanted to do a surgery and take his stomach and flip it upside down. As soon as he left the room my husband and I looked at each other and where like heck no. We didn't say a word acted like we where going to go along with things and got the heck out and never went back. 

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site. I am glad you are on it. I pray you will do what is best for your dog. Just know sometimes the "experts" vets or holistic don't know everything. Trust your gut and always research the best you can.


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## GatorBytes

Sabis mom said:


> She blamed you???
> Oh I would be going to see her alright but it wouldnt be for a consult.



here is the comment I posted at the time about her from G's hemangio thread...After he passed away, I had called and left a message that he was gone and thanked her and thought she should know. No return call, no condolences, no card in the mail. 


_"Geez, just spoke with my holistic vet. I had left message on wed but never heard back.

She said to get Yunnan Chinese herb. to go knock on doors in Toronto.

I had been to her in sept. She gave me 2 herbal tinctures. Graviola and Bloodroot. Graviola has a laundry list of side effects incl. vestibular type reaction and Bloodroot you can barely find any info.

She questioned if he was getting these.

She told me small bleeds were painful to which I questioned why the vet wouldn't script tramadol if that were the case.

* Anyhow, she basically said to call them if that's the route I want to choose*, then said good-bye dear and hung up.

Found her to be a little snarky
Anyhow, I doubt her tinctures are going to save him."_


----------



## GatorBytes

*Mini Documentary*

I just went to the Welland SPCA fb page...


Friday Aug. 18 they are releasing an 11 minute Mini Documentary "Clearing Bastrop" about the rescue and adoption event.


I have to remember to watch and post the youtube link


----------



## Magwart

I'll look forward to watching that!

I had another thought for taking the edge off anxiety (esp. during crate rest): what about tryptophan? Someone sent me some tryptophan-laced dog chews years ago, and I remember giving just one chew to a high strung adolescent before an adoption event...and she snoozed the whole afternoon....way more powerful than expected. I'm not sure about dose or frequency, but it's worth looking into. I don't have much experience with it, but it might be worth doing some investigating.

How are things going, now that she's settled in?


----------



## Misha111

Just caught up on this thread. What a lovely girl, it's no wonder she stole your heart and she is very lucky to have you. Regarding the vet, if possible change. i learnt that not all vets are born equal when I got a huge lecture on what an irresponsible owner I was having such a dangerous and horrid dog. So irresponsible that my late pup was muzzle trained and the only time she wore a muzzle was at the vets. Different Vet, different result.
Wishing you and your girl all the best x


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## carmspack

Or GABA -- there is a formula with GABA and Valerian together but I don't know the name of it.

tryptophan readily available in a good clean protein diet -


----------



## GatorBytes

I think Lil has had a couple of episodes that might indicate a cough caused by HW.
She has also had 2 rounds of panacur for whipworm which ended Aug. 19th (3 day dose to be done in 3 months), but I have found live worms in her poop yesterday and today. Will be running todays poop to vet to be sent out. Could be other worms...can HW get into GI tract?


Now I am wondering if she should have a chest xray.


I also found this about Advantage multi per Magwarts exp and knowledge (thank you so much!). 


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28526088/


Conclusions: This study demonstrated that this treatment regimen successfully eliminated D. immitis microfilariae by 21 days post-treatment, reduced heartworm antigen concentration over time, and had a *95.9% efficacy in the elimination of mature adult heartworms*. Based on this study, we conclude that this treatment regimen is a relatively quick, reliable and safe option to treat canine heartworm infection as compared to other treatment regimens involving macrocyclic lactones, when the approved drug melarsomine dihydrochloride is unavailable, contraindicated or declined by an owner unable to afford the more costly treatment or concerned about the potential side effects. 


^^^but that is only based on a handful of dogs (12 in study with half getting treatment)


----------



## dogma13

I've been wondering how the little girl was getting along.Any new pics to post?If it were me I would be adding diatomaceous earth to her food to eliminate the intestinal parasites on an ongoing basis.Instead of giving the harsh pesticides continually.HW only infect the bloodstream.


----------



## GatorBytes

dogma13 said:


> I've been wondering how the little girl was getting along.Any new pics to post?If it were me I would be adding diatomaceous earth to her food to eliminate the intestinal parasites on an ongoing basis.Instead of giving the harsh pesticides continually.HW only infect the bloodstream.



Hi Thank you. I will have some pics soon, lots to tell about how she is doing (new thread soon)...still neurotic scaredy dog of almost all people and dogs. Doing well in crate (moved it) even though puts on drama queen act prior...
But she is a ton of fun...LOVES me, tons of energy, zoomies galore, put on 13lbs...so much to tell.


We have vet app. at 3pm today. Poop sample and possible xrays if vet feels needed.


----------



## Magwart

GatorBytes said:


> She has also had 2 rounds of panacur for whipworm which ended Aug. 19th (3 day dose to be done in 3 months), but I have found live worms in her poop yesterday and today. Will be running todays poop to vet to be sent out. Could be other worms...can HW get into GI tract?


No HWs in the GI tract but you may be seeing tapeworms. They're one species that Panacur misses, transmitted by fleas. If what you saw was about the size of long grains of rice, and came out wiggling...those are tapes. She might need Praziquantel for those -- not dangerous, easy to treat, just really gross.



GatorBytes said:


> Now I am wondering if she should have a chest xray.


The gold standard treatment says always do them. Most of the time they don't change anything. In rescue where pennies count, we don't do them unless the disease is advanced. I've got a foster right now who had bad clinical signs of HW disease (severe cough, inability to exercise, lethargy), and the vet was worried about him going caval on us. She did xrays and found a mass of worms lodged in a major pulmonary artery (explaining his lack of energy and lethargy). Based on the xrays, he had to get fast kill treatment ASAP--no time to wait for Advantage Multi to kick in because his clock was ticking (we were on "caval watch"). For an asymptomatic dog, I don't do the xrays though (and a lot of vets here skip them to cut the treatment cost)....but that's a judgment call that is based on experience, and deviates from the AHWS gold-standard protocol.

Prednisone will likely knock down that cough and make her feel better. If it's just a one-off hack, then after a few months on Multi, what you're hearing is quite possibly a single worm dying and drifting into the lungs where it embolizes. We see a good bit of that occasional hacking around month 3-4 on Multi, and the vet told me what she thinks causes it.



GatorBytes said:


> I also found this about Advantage multi per Magwarts exp and knowledge (thank you so much!).
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28526088/
> [...]
> ^^^but that is only based on a handful of dogs (12 in study with half getting treatment)


Glad it helped! Yep, it is small...but these HW studies are almost always small because they have to kill a lot of dogs to do them. The ethics of a large-scale study would be pretty tough when you are infecting healthy dogs with a set number of HW larvae, and then eventually euthanizing the dog to do a necropsy and count how many worms are left in it after treatment. No dogs come out of these HW studies alive.


----------



## GatorBytes

Pic is of her clowning around, she is sitting on back of sofa, and other just a shot of her mid august scoping out the bunny in the yard (she has some prey drive)


----------



## GatorBytes

She isn't on Advantage Multi.
Not tape worms, tapes are flat and segmented. This was round. Thinking she didn't have a long enough or strong enough course of panacur (did 3 on, 3 weeks off, 3 days on...perhaps she needed 5 day..plus it was based on her being 30 lbs...she is now 43lbs.


She could have tapes too...who knows, she has everything else. sigh.


Magwart...do you think she should have Advantage Multi as opposed to immiticide. I am getting very scared (she has really grown on me and I love her).


My friends SIL adopted a dog from Louisiana while visiting her aunt (she felt dog was neglected and brought back to Canada - this person has been on and off welfare over the yrs and in no way should own pets, but I digress...)


She had dog 2 yrs, started coughing, took to vet, tested positive..FF, she did the immiticide treatment - 1st one...dog stayed at clinic for 12 hrs. They said was safe to take home. Died overnight.


Soooo...I didn't need to hear that. Now I'm a wreck


----------



## Magwart

She's SO adorable.

I can't answer that. Most dogs treated for HW don't die. Remind yourself of that! 

Yes, I had a foster die on me once when we did everything by the book--the entire protocol was perfectly followed, with crate rest--so I can't say the risk isn't real. I live on pins and needles during treatment, counting their breaths per minute while they're sleeping. However, most dogs don't have any problems. Two of my personal dogs got through treatment just fine, and quite a few foster dogs and friends' dogs have too. That doesn't mean much when your dog is one of the few that doesn't, though -- and I totally get that.

I just went through a big, intense convo with a foster family who adores the guy they're fostering and is afraid of him dying during treatment too. This isn't an easy decision, or a one-size-fits-all dogs decision. We brought our vet into the discussion, and we made a decision based on her evaluation of the dog in front of her. I think that's the only reasonable way to proceed, when you've got a good vet.

Remember too that there's risks with _not_ doing fast kill too: if the dog goes caval during slow kill, then the only way to save it is by manually pulling out the worms from the major blood vessels around the heart and lungs (super-high risk, "hail Mary" surgical procedure on a dog that's about to die). 

Maybe try this: if you like your vet, have her read the recent literature so that she knows there _is _an option (and point out that McCall is a past board member of AHWS, so he's not a "fringe researcher"). Then have her evaluate the clinical signs of disease in the dog to help weigh pros and cons. The personality and excitablility of the dog matters too -- some dogs are not going to deal with 2 mo. of crate rest, without a lot of sedatives. That should all be part of the convo with the vet.


----------



## GatorBytes

I want to scream!!!!


No matter how proactive I have been in dosing her meds (spacing them), treating her diarrhea, whip worms, anaplasmosis (3 week dose of doxy at 100mg) and now her doxy "pre"- treatment for her upcoming HW treatment (1 week in at 200mg for 30 days, gave a 1 week rest before starting it)....I have been supplementing with Feed-Sentials, give her a late night snack 3 hrs away from meds with her Sunday Sundae in goats milk yogurt and bit of kibble, as well getting Ashwagandha in a.m and p.m meals...


She was dx with tapes and yesterday I gave her the meds for at 2 pm with tripe meatballs, so not empty stomach really. 


Well today she puked up her breakfast. I searched online as well spoke to vet tech and then vet who both concurred (as I also found online) that if she was going to vomit from, it would have happened within a couple hrs of giving her. NOT 17 hrs later.


On Friday I texted my landlord and asked to please kindly NOT spray the driveway with ROUNDUP. They do every yr. at this time I told him that 2 yrs ago Gator got very sick with symptoms of roundup poisoning per the vets opinion. He died 6 months later.


His response was "have the vet provide a letter indicating he died of roundup poisoning". (URGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!)


Anyhow, Today (Monday) as I am coming up drive from our walk, I notice it is in fact turning yellow/brown (takes 2 days to a week and up to 2 weeks to fully kill)...Today she pukes right after eating a half hr after our walk.


If was done last week, might explain why had to take her to vet on Thursday b/c of cough.


The vet feels it could in fact be from round up, or other, but not meds.


LL denies spraying. I'm going to talk to my neighbours


(note: driveway is gravel, with grass and other foliage growing along sides. It gets maintained all season via lawnmower...yesterday I mowed it not realizing it had been spraying making it airborn and distributing it further. I did note in my text to give me notice if they insist on doing so that I can alter my route on other side of house and avoid drive...I did not think he would do to "spite" my concerns)


----------



## Mary Beth

How frustrating for you and poor Lil! I guess the only thing to do is to take the alternate route and avoid the driveway and also to wipe her paws when she comes back inside as explained in page 5 of this article: 

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/32488/em9052.pdf


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Sorry you and Lil are going through this. you are doing everything you can. Roundup is used so much. Wonder if you could find a animal safe herbicide . I've used white vinegar kills most weeds for a significant period of time. My dad swears by it. Hope a solution is found quickly.


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## GatorBytes

*Contacted Bastrop Shelter*

Hi. So a few days ago, I posted on the FB page of the shelter she came from to see if anyone recognized her and if they had any info on her history. The admin of the FB site (a volunteer) told me she would print off her photo and bring to the shelter to see what she could find out for me.


Today she messaged me with this...


*********, this is ******* **** with the Morehouse Humane Society from Bastrop, Louisiana. I'm a volunteer with our animal shelter and have been for close to 30 years. I asked one of our shelter employees to research our records about Lil. According to documentation we have, Lil was brought into our shelter on March 23, 2017 and was a stray that the dog catcher picked up on the streets. She was then transported to Canada in mid to late June. The only information we have is something that I believe will explain why Lil was extremely shy and scared and underweight. On the day that Lil was brought into our shelter, an information card was filled out on her and written at the bottom of the card, it said "If the owner tries to reclaim dog, do NOT allow. When picked up, the dog was very malnourished and has scars from possible fighting". So as sad as this is, Lil really did get a happy ending because she has you now and lots of love, care and attention. She's a beautiful dog and from the pictures you sent, it's obvious she's very happy and being very well taken care of. Thank you for adopting Lil and for giving her the life she deserves.


----------



## GatorBytes

*I am a wreck*

Long story short.


I live in an old fully detached house that has been divided into 2 units. I have the main level and basement.
The upstairs tenant moved out on Monday.
I asked the LL yesterday what the intentions were for upstairs prep for new tenant (re how this will impact me)


I was told they are planning to put in a gas furnace (currently electric baseboards, I have gas and this will be separate unit)
There will be a kitchen gut and reno, ripping out carpet and putting in new flooring and cupboards and taking down a wall (if possible)
They expect to take 2 months.


Today I rec'd an e-mail from LL per our discussion...They outlined they will need access to my unit from 7am to 5pm Mon to Sat and that anytime I go out I am to have my dog caged.


NO. Law says they can access after 8am and ONLY after they have given written notice 24 hrs in advance, incl. date, reason for entry AND a time.
I replied with this information, not be difficult, but because I cannot live for 60 days NOT knowing when someone is going to be at my door asking to come in. Rediculous.


Anyhow, that aside...this RENO starts around the time Lil is to start HW treatment...AND THAT STILL HASN'T BEEN SCHEDULED AND I AM IN LIMBO..I CANNOT get a confirmation date from the SPCA as to when this is happening. When she was adopted it was supposed to be OCT. 


I am terrified this will kill her. Terrified of the stress this will cause. I don't know what to do. I'm in tears


----------



## Magwart

Dang -- is there a local "renter's rights" board or something you can contact to ask for help?

If this were my dog, I honestly would not do HW treatment on a dog that is emotionally fragile while dealing with reno work happening. Once treatment starts, she might even have to be sedated when you go to work, to be honest. That SUCKS. 

When construction is going on in my house, it stresses ME out beyond measure because it upends the calm I cultivate in our home -- I thrive on the same calm routine that my dogs do. The noise of power tools and hammering, the dust and fumes, the strangers tromping through my space....I'm just like the dogs in _wanting_ to bark at the contractor's crew to make them leave, even if I'm paying them for work needing done! 

When I'm stressed and worried, my dogs are too. She will absorb all your worry, even if the construction workers are respectful of the dog in your absence (which they sometimes aren't).

If it were my dog, I'd wait til the work is done, and put her on Advantage Multi in the meantime.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> Dang -- is there a local "renter's rights" board or something you can contact to ask for help?
> 
> If this were my dog, I honestly would not do HW treatment on a dog that is emotionally fragile while dealing with reno work happening. Once treatment starts, she might even have to be sedated when you go to work, to be honest. That SUCKS.
> 
> When construction is going on in my house, it stresses ME out beyond measure because it upends the calm I cultivate in our home -- I thrive on the same calm routine that my dogs do. The noise of power tools and hammering, the dust and fumes, the strangers tromping through my space....I'm just like the dogs in _wanting_ to bark at the contractor's crew to make them leave, even if I'm paying them for work needing done!
> 
> When I'm stressed and worried, my dogs are too. She will absorb all your worry, even if the construction workers are respectful of the dog in your absence (which they sometimes aren't).
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd wait til the work is done, and put her on Advantage Multi in the meantime.


 
Thanks Magwart.
Yes. My thoughts were to talk to vet about this today (advantage).
I cannot wait to do the immiticide treatment if go that route. The treatment is contingent on the rescue schedule, not mine. So if we miss that window, it will not get done. I do not have 3000$.
My vet did read the info I emailed her about the Advantage (which truthfully is the route I would rather go, and we could have been 1/3 of the way there at this time) and she said looks promising, but referred to the other as "gold standard" citing 99 to 100% success vs. the 95% with Advantage and it only being a 1 yr. study.


As for the my rights as tenant. The LL can do whatever they want, so long as they adhere to my rights, which as noted, is 24 hrs notice of entry in writing. That's it.


Nothing is ever easy for me. Timing couldn't be worse.
And to further add to the stress, I am looking for a job. I am barely working and I am hurting financially, so move is NOT an option.
I have to be interview ready and available to start or try out a job at a moments notice. This could impair my ability to find work. 
I am a wreck.
And yes, she is vibing off my stress right now.


----------



## carmspack

why is he doing round up now?

you are supposed to use it during growth --- not when the natural fall cycle halts growth .

round up is a controlled chemical and has been identified as a carcinogen --- glyphosates 

Landlord and Tenant Act 
some basic questions Ontario Landlord and Tenant Act; questions and answers 
Q5: When can a landlord enter my apartment?

A5: Before entering your apartment the landlord or their employee must give you 24 hours written notice of entry giving a reason as well as a time (the time must be between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.). Formerly even under the Tenant Protection Act, the landlord had to have a good reason to come in, such as to make necessary repairs, but now under the Residential Tenancies Act, they can claim it is just to do an No notice is necessary in cases of emergencies, if you give the landlord permission to do so, or in cases where a notice to terminate the lease (by either the tenant or landlord) has been given.


Is the guy doing the repairs to glam the place up so that he can increase the rent?

rent control may prohibit an increase --- not a new unit - just a renewed unit

does he give you receipts -- (claim income?)

tough spot to be in because of the dog


----------



## GatorBytes

carmspack said:


> why is he doing round up now?
> 
> you are supposed to use it during growth --- not when the natural fall cycle halts growth .
> 
> round up is a controlled chemical and has been identified as a carcinogen --- glyphosates
> 
> Landlord and Tenant Act
> some basic questions Ontario Landlord and Tenant Act; questions and answers
> Q5: When can a landlord enter my apartment?
> 
> A5: Before entering your apartment the landlord or their employee must give you 24 hours written notice of entry giving a reason as well as a time (the time must be between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.). Formerly even under the Tenant Protection Act, the landlord had to have a good reason to come in, such as to make necessary repairs, but now under the Residential Tenancies Act, they can claim it is just to do an No notice is necessary in cases of emergencies, if you give the landlord permission to do so, or in cases where a notice to terminate the lease (by either the tenant or landlord) has been given.
> 
> 
> Is the guy doing the repairs to glam the place up so that he can increase the rent?
> 
> rent control may prohibit an increase --- not a new unit - just a renewed unit
> 
> does he give you receipts -- (claim income?)
> 
> tough spot to be in because of the dog


 
They didn't do roundup this yr, so they said, they said their guy doesn't use round-up, however an herbicide is used, and it is likely roundup. The grass around my vehicle is still green, last yr it was black and gone. I have pics. Grass going down the drive had turned overnight seemingly. More pics to be taken.


I was a member of a tenants association a few yrs back in a highrise and had to take on a billion dollar property manager. I am fairly familiar with Landlord and tenant rights. But called this morning just to be sure that I was right about accessibility notice. Yes an "emergency" can wave those rights. But good chance if they are using skilled trades to move plumbing, then they would be scheduled and they can give notice to come in and turn the water off. I CAN TURN THE WATER OFF, so a flood is not likely and should not be an emergency. Electrical, Gas technicians. Same. 
They do need to drill through an exterior wall in my basement. They WILL need to advise me of this.
My concern is how hard this is going to be on Lil. It's not like I can take her to daycare. She WILL NOT go near anyone or any dog. 
I could hear my neighbours drop crap, thump across floor, hear their TV if too loud.
This is going to be excessive. The LL isn't going to hire a demo crew that can gut in a day or two. NOOOO, they plan to do demo themselves, taking this reno beyond reasonable timeline.


There is no rent control. They can rent unit as is w/o even painting it and jack rent to what ever they want. It's vacant. They can only raise mine according to guideline (which they have not raised since moved in 4yrs ago) 


Also what I know about this (under the LTB), when an extensive reno (as they called it), is to take place, then they are to advise SIXTY days in advance. They are giving me 3 days.
So, depending, I may ask for financial compensation...but I'm angry and stressed right now.


Flip side, if I move, I am looking at a $500 to $1000 increase in rent for a substandard place comparatively. 


I have to play nice, but I just want to SCREAM!!!!


Oh, and rent receipts, yes they claim income, would love not to have. I was paying cash and getting a recipt at end of yr. until 2 yrs ago when she gave me a hard time. I had to force her to sign the paper to give me. After that I only pay by money order now


----------



## GatorBytes

I sent off an email to the clinic to ask the Vet to revisit Advantage, citing the new circumstances that have risen and asked that she call me when has chance.


I also sent a message to Welland through facebook asking if they have a contingency plan in place for those dogs that cannot make it per their schedule. And seeing it was supposed to be beginning of Oct, then poof, not until Nov. and still no notice even though Nov is 4 days away.,.. this being in limbo is killing me.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

GatorBytes I have no advice just sending thoughts and prayers for you and Lil.


----------



## GatorBytes

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> GatorBytes I have no advice just sending thoughts and prayers for you and Lil.


Thank you


----------



## GatorBytes

I called the clinic to see if my email was rec'd. The Vet isn't in until Monday, but they have it on her to do list.
Welland replied thru FB said be in touch.


I am trying to find the silver lining in this. And perhaps this was meant to happen so she doesn't get the immiticide. Maybe, just maybe it was meant to be that we go with Advantage Multi.


Honestly, I have no idea how I was going to keep her low key. We don't have fenced yard, and while we were having zoomie and play sessions before (she was glued to me), the more confidence she got...well, she ran after a bunny. So running around in yard is not issue at this time (looking into fencing it, but that won't be happening this season which is fine considering...)


But she is a loony tune. Inside she gets zoomies a few times a day, uses my sectional sofa like a race track, goes super ballistic when I get home, and crazy, jumping and doing spins when it time for walkies! She is a future agility champion, if I can get her to that point!


Anyhow. Thanks for listening.


----------



## GatorBytes

GatorBytes said:


> I was told they are planning to put in a gas furnace (currently electric baseboards, I have gas and this will be separate unit)
> There will be a kitchen gut and reno, ripping out carpet and putting in new flooring and cupboards and taking down a wall (if possible)
> They expect to take 2 months.
> 
> 
> *Today I rec'd an e-mail from LL per our discussion...They outlined they will need access to my unit from 7am to 5pm Mon to Sat and that anytime I go out I am to have my dog caged.*
> 
> 
> NO. *Law says they can access after 8am and ONLY after they have given written notice 24 hrs in advance, incl. date, reason for entry AND a time.*
> *I replied with this information, not be difficult, but because I cannot live for 60 days NOT knowing when someone is going to be at my door asking to come in. Rediculous*.


 
So it seems the fun has already begun. Later in day after I replied to LL about my rights and their responsibilities (very amicable.) He replied that they would need access to basement Monday Oct. 30th from 9am to 11 am and why. Perfect.


Yesterday (Sat.) my LL (actually her husband he does not own this property), had me blocked in as I was leaving for work. He was about to leave, and was closing his shop door at the moment I went to my van, he says good morning. I say good morning - I'm late!


He says "Oh well"


and then takes his time getting into and starting his truck and moving along.


Maybe I should start a thread about, just to document as this goes along. I am so stressed


----------



## GatorBytes

My Vet called this morning...Seems this is a tough situation that she doesn't even know what to suggest.


What she doesn't like about the Advantage Multi...The lit says the treatment starts with dosing every 2 weeks for first three months, then once a month thereafter, but during this time she would be have to be on doxy for months. Now I am a bit confused by this as doxy is to kill off the wolbachia bacteria.


She then suggested I contact Welland to find out if there was an alternate date the immiticide can be done. I am still waiting to hear about that. I did mention they will likely bring up another group of dogs come spring (as they have done this before) and maybe just maybe she can be treated down the road.


Again the concern is, what is the HW load, and what damage is it doing.
She is confident that the 2 rounds of doxy knocked out the bacteria and that as long as she is not re-infected by a mosquito here and was on heartguard (last dose was sept. 24th - nothing this month), that come Oct the chance was pretty slim she would have been infected with the bacteria


She suggests she go back on Heartguard for 6 months...to basically start the slow kill method until we can get a better handle on what to do.


In the early stages, of the initial shot, I can board her at the clinic if I cannot be home and people are going to be traipsing thru my home.
But she is neurotic and I don't even know if that would do her in. However, better then leaving her hear alone. 


So back to Doxy...if the doxy has killed the bacteria, then why would she need it for Advantage treatment if she is not at risk of being infected come Oct? @*Magwart*


----------



## Magwart

We do 30 days of Doxy, and keep them on AM monthly, from Day 1. That's it. Some vets here repeat the doxy every 6 months. The AM hits steady state in the blood in months 3-4, and that's when the worm killing seems to start (we sometimes get the distinctive cough that dogs make when a worm embollizes in month 3-4 -- and our vet will put them on a month of pred if that happens, to reduce inflammation in the pulminary arteries, but they have to let the worms embollize, so some of that is just going to happen).

We even keep them on AM if doing fast kill--it's the best option for HW+ dogs because it's weakening the worms in a way HG doesn't. I don't understanding putting the dog on HG instead of AM -- there's just no benefit to it that I know of, and starting AM immediately creates flexibility if there are issues that develop that prevent fast-kill or delay it (um, like here). 

Maybe that's a convo to have with your vet: if we're up in the air about next steps, why HG? Why not start AM while we figure out timing options on immiticide, and see whether the LL will work with you and be reasonable?

What may be going on with the immiticide is they have to do all the dogs at once in order to minimize cost -- the immiticide becomes useless within 1-2 days of opening the vial, so vets plan to do all their HW dogs the same day in order to minimize the number of vials opened.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> We do 30 days of Doxy, and keep them on AM monthly, from Day 1. That's it. Some vets here repeat the doxy every 6 months. The AM hits steady state in the blood in months 3-4, and that's when the worm killing seems to start (we sometimes get the distinctive cough that dogs make when a worm embollizes in month 3-4 -- and our vet will put them on a month of pred if that happens, to reduce inflammation in the pulminary arteries, but they have to let the worms embollize, so some of that is just going to happen).
> 
> We even keep them on AM if doing fast kill--it's the best option for HW+ dogs because it's weakening the worms in a way HG doesn't. I don't understanding putting the dog on HG instead of AM -- there's just no benefit to it that I know of, and starting AM immediately creates flexibility if there are issues that develop that prevent fast-kill or delay it (um, like here).
> 
> Maybe that's a convo to have with your vet: if we're up in the air about next steps, why HG? Why not start AM while we figure out timing options on immiticide, and see whether the LL will work with you and be reasonable?
> 
> What may be going on with the immiticide is they have to do all the dogs at once in order to minimize cost -- the immiticide becomes useless within 1-2 days of opening the vial, so vets plan to do all their HW dogs the same day in order to minimize the number of vials opened.



Re: LL, see other thread. Day one, not going so well.


As for the HG vs. AM, I too am confused.
Is the protocol you are aware of bi-weekly for 3 months. What is cost. She is done with doxy (200mg.). Ended Oct. 6 after 30 days as well as 3 weeks at 100mg just prior. After the tapeworm treatment have only just got her bowels resolved in last couple weeks


----------



## Magwart

Boarding at the vet in the "initial stages" isn't all that helpful. You'd need somewhere to leave her while at work for weeks. The worms don't really start dying until a week after the shot. The complications I've seen have been in the window 1-3 weeks after the shot, not just a few days after.

AM costs about US$80 per 6 tubes at KVSupply.com or Valleyvet.com. I have no idea whether Canadian pharmacies charge more. 

We don't do it biweekly. We just do monthly application of Multi + 30 days of doxy. The biweekly is a different protocol. I don't know anyone here who does it biweekly either. That's an innovation of that study.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> Boarding at the vet in the "initial stages" isn't all that helpful. You'd need somewhere to leave her while at work for weeks. The worms don't really start dying until a week after the shot. The complications I've seen have been in the window 1-3 weeks after the shot, not just a few days after.
> 
> AM costs about US$80 per 6 tubes at KVSupply.com or Valleyvet.com. I have no idea whether Canadian pharmacies charge more.
> 
> We don't do it biweekly. We just do monthly application of Multi + 30 days of doxy. The biweekly is a different protocol. I don't know anyone here who does it biweekly either. That's an innovation of that study.



Thank you again Magwart!!!!


I was to take her in yesterday to be weighed (didn't make it) to see which dose HG she was to get, but I am going to insist on the AM. Best to start it today as I have next couple days off to make sure she is ok with it. I think that b/c vets don't treat HW in such a capacity as you have seen, that best to go with gold standard, plus cost covered by rescue.


It was going to be 70 for HG...don't know what AM would be. Going to call shortly.


----------



## GatorBytes

@Magwart :x
Just got off phone with Vet. She reviewed the protocol again, but also another - so she is doing her due diligence. 




Tomorrow I will be picking up and starting AM at 1x per month (my choice, but vet is listening). I felt that two rounds of doxy was enough and considering having HG for 4 months, she should be well primed to start this protocol. I mentioned about your (Magwart) comment about how some vets like to do doxy 6 months in.


I didn't here back from shelter about later date. So this, I feel is lesser of all evils (Halloween pun).


AM is around 135/6 viles here. 


Also, I am 99.9% sure going to vet kennel her on fri. as I work, and she will be getting the spot on tomorrow. Gives me peace of mind as my LL is being a huge jerk, as well, a possible reaction to AM


----------



## Sunsilver

Wishing you and your girl the best of luck, Gator!


----------



## wolfy dog

Hey Gator! Who else would be a better fit for her? I would do it and go from there while you give it your all. I feel it is already past decision time anyways as she seems to have found a spot in your heart. Do you like her? If yes, what is the dilemma?
It is just the consequence of going to these events 
In our language there is a quote "If you burn your britches, you have to sit on the blisters!"


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## GatorBytes

wolfy dog said:


> Hey Gator! Who else would be a better fit for her? I would do it and go from there while you give it your all. I feel it is already past decision time anyways as she seems to have found a spot in your heart. Do you like her? If yes, what is the dilemma?
> It is just the consequence of going to these events
> In our language there is a quote "If you burn your britches, you have to sit on the blisters!"


 
O.K. I am a bit confused by this, well all of this post.
What are you reefing to please? :smile2:


Edit: Oh. Are you referring to the very first post?


----------



## wolfy dog

GatorBytes said:


> O.K. I am a bit confused by this, well all of this post.
> What are you reefing to please? :smile2:
> 
> 
> Edit: Oh. Are you referring to the very first post?


To your earlier post: 07-14-2017, 11:13 AM I didn't realize that was an old one. Sorry


----------



## GatorBytes

Poor Lil. Today after receiving an e-mail from LL again giving themselves carte blanche to walk in when they feel like starting today, I decided to take Lil on the road with me to do my various errands.


She is not a lover of car rides, but is doing better. 


Our last stop was to the vet clinic to p/u the Advantage Multi. The receptionist helped apply while there as I wasn't sure I could hold her still long enough to do as directed as says to do in 4 spots down shoulder. She is such a wiggly worm, lol.:laugh2:


Weighed her too. She was 22.3kg (49 lbs.) She was 30 when I took her for first visit...Yikes! Little heifer, and I cut back her food after doxy was done on Oct. 6th. And I don't spoil her with an obscene amount of treats...she gets a few dehydrated beef lung pcs. that's it.


Starting to wonder if perhaps she was only a yr old and has grown. At that time I couldn't hold a tape measure near her, she cowered, (She was listed as 4 yrs old, but picked up as stray, so was estimate by rescue)...Now she doesn't have that slope in the waist so much, but she doesn't look fat. IDK. 


Once I get her cleared of HW, she is going to get into some kind of sport. I think she would excel at agility. She didn't much seem to like the lake, so dock diving is likely out.
She is quite the little land shark...maybe bite work....lol >


----------



## Mary Beth

That's wonderful Lil has gained weight and is filling out and is learning to accept the car rides so she can go with you.


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## GatorBytes

*Got Notice about HW treatment today*

Well this is an interesting turn of events.


In part...
Information for your dogs upcoming treatment


I understand that your dog has already completed three months of heartworm preventive therapy and the month long treatment with doxycycline and is awaiting further treatment.
* For best care and outcome and also expedience it has been decided your pet should be treated at your family veterinarian. The Welland SPCA will pay for and send the medications to the veterinarian of your choice.* Left untreated heartworm disease is deadly but, treatment can also be risky in dogs with late stage disease developed over years of infection. To properly stage and then treat Heartworm disease, a microfilarial test and chest radiographs need to be performed. Without them, risk of complications and poor outcome including death is higher. With these tests, you and your veterinarian can better decide how to proceed with treatment.
* The shelter will provide the medications, including three immiticide injections, prednisone and three more months of heartworm preventative, for your veterinarian to administer and supervise*. The Welland SPCA feel this is in the best interest of your pet. Should you and your vet decide to perform microfilarial testing, radiographs or blood and urine tests to determine overall health and staging of disease, or if complications arise, these costs will be your responsibility. If this proves to be an issue, please contact the shelter animal care manager to discuss options.


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## GatorBytes

Left untreated heartworm disease is deadly but, treatment can also be risky in dogs with late stage disease developed over years of infection. To properly stage and then treat Heartworm disease, a microfilarial test and chest radiographs need to be performed. Without them, risk of complications and poor outcome including death is higher. With these tests, you and your veterinarian can better decide how to proceed with treatment.


I don't get this line though. xrays and microfilaria test isn't going to change the outcome or how to proceed unless I guess you do the slow kill.


This a new medical director.


Maybe there was some gray area's they hadn't covered and want to wash themselves of any responsibility to care if something goes wrong. Or they fell into a bucket of money and all dogs can get a $3000 treatment. 
100 dogs tested positive


They did say if wanted to go to SPCA, can still do. Just need to be there on Dec. 2 and then Jan. 6 & 7


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## Mary Beth

That's good news that the heartworm medication is now available and no cost to you. For the recommended tests, I would show the letter to my vet and ask for her opinion.


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## GatorBytes

Mary Beth said:


> That's good news that the heartworm medication is now available and no cost to you. For the recommended tests, I would show the letter to my vet and ask for her opinion.



It was never to be at cost to me if was done at SPCA...The thing is, there were 100 HW + dogs out of the 150. The SPCA was going to do groups of 25 at a time. One immiticide shot is $1000 at the vet (need 3). Once the vile (?) is opened it cannot be reused and what is left has to be tossed. So their plan was to treat as many dogs as possible per vile minimizing the cost.


Now they are willing to pay for the whole treatment per dog, per owner who chooses to go with their own vet. Before the only place being offered was at the SPCA she was brought into from Louisiana. This was supposed to happen in Oct. Then this new medical director I guess, things put off until Nov. I couldn't get an answer from them as to when, but then I got the e-mail that it will be Dec. 2 IF I go that route. Which, no, I think best I use our own vet. I like her, it's 7 mins away vs. 40 mins to Welland. I would have to leave her for day there. I don't want to traumatize her.


Plus 25 dogs is a lot to treat. Now I'm not sure they meant in 1 day, but did tell me was to be done in groups of 25.


My vet gives a steroid shot and sets a timer literally for 30 mins before doing the immiticide 


I did forward the email to the vet. Got email back from clinic that she is off this week, but she will review when back.


The good thing here (I hope), is b/c of the reno, I didn't feel it best to put her through this as she needs a calm quiet place. So I did take Magwarts knowledge and advice and started her on Advantage multi and also after the vet reviewed the lit.
Now with this turn of events, I can still get her the immiticide treatment if I want to, and can take control as to when, like the new year. After the reno. Or stick to the Advantage multi plan
I did bring her for xrays. The vet didn't feel she needed them and said may not show anything. She did have the microfilaria test done when I got her.


----------



## Mary Beth

Thanks for the explanation. I can now see where that opens up more options for you to get Lil the best treatment. It will be interesting to learn what your vet says.


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## Heartandsoul

I was reading your renovation updates in the other thread and this stood out like a beacon: "handling the noise, sleeps through" . 

Is she becoming desensitized to all the noise that has been going on? Because that's how I took it and thought good for Lil. Good good girl. And even if it is just her way of shutting down/coping mechanism, still good girl. 

With all the curve balls that have been thrown at you, as I see it from what you have written, there is something very positive that is developing between you two. Maybe this is the first time she has ever had a human constant in her life. Big noise you are still there. You have to leave, you still come back.

It just seems like everything that she is experiencing as bad as it is is helping her strengthen her nerves for if and or when you decide to do the fast kill.

There is also one question concerning worm load. Is there a reason why an ultra sound would not be able to show that? I'm just thinking that it would be more effective than an X-ray. This is more a general why question.

I just thought I would point out a positive that I saw in all the crappy weeds of the situation.


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## Sabis mom

Lil is such a cutie!

I have absolute faith that you will figure out her best option.
In the meantime more pics please. I am so in love with her and I think it's sweet that she has formed such a strong bond with you. It has been so much fun watching her come out of her shell and blossom into the lady she was meant to be.
She has given you a purpose and a goal. She is proof that we always get the dog we need.


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## GatorBytes

*HS called today.*

So near end of day, Reno still going on, the Vet Tech called from Welland. wanted to know if I was ready to book Lil in on Sat for first shot. I'm like, well, no, this is the situation.
She thought that a reno and people traipsing through my home while under going HW treatment and detox was the "perfect" time. B/C she can't run, play, get excited, go for walks. Nothing. So how is a stressful environment a "perfect|" time to get a toxic treatment on a scared dog?


The Vet emailed me today said great they will pay for the full treatment at clinic (still not sure if includes vet visit to do shot), then asked how I want to proceed. I didn't have an answer, so I didn't reply. That was before the call from HS.


I did ask the tech if includes vet bill they are paying for, but didn't get an answer, just the usual, Vet may want to run this test or that, but won't change the outcome. She said she doesn't believ all the dogs will make it through treatment.


She did say however, that no dog has been returned to them from any of the adopters. There was one dog left from the adoption event in July who was still at the shelter. Got adopted this past weekend:smile2:


I gave her my vets info so she can forward the shtuff
Now I don't know what to do:|


----------



## Sabis mom

I thought you had already worked this out with your vet and decided on a course of action best suited for Lil and you.


----------



## GatorBytes

Sabis mom said:


> I thought you had already worked this out with your vet and decided on a course of action best suited for Lil and you.


 
I had to do the convincing. She still felt best to go with the "gold standard", but suggested I find out if they were pulling more dogs soon and post-pone treatment if I could get her in a future group. There was no indication at the time that they would give the meds to the vet of our choice. She then wanted to put her back on heartguard until then.
I had said o.k., and had contacted the SPCA and they didn't get back to me. So I called the vet and said based on her activity and what I read (and what she read), I said I would want to start with the Advantage Multi. Then go from there. The vet got right on board with it given the new circumstances (reno) 


She has only had one dose. Due in couple days.


My concern is, am I spinning the roulette wheel?


----------



## Mary Beth

Yes, I agree with you that you spinning the roulette wheel. Lil has a ticking time bomb with the heartworms. In my view, the longer this is put off, the more risk for Lil. Since the funds are now available, I would go with your vet's advice and start the standard treatment. If you wait, the available funds may be used up. With working less hours, you will be home the majority of the time with Lil and that is for the best. If you wait, your work situation could change and you will have to leave her more. Lil is doing very well with the retro and the majority of it is done. So now would be in my view, the best time.


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## Sunsilver

I agree with Mary Beth. Honestly, I think YOU are more stressed out from the reno than Lil!

Having you there with her during treatment is, I think, much better for her than waiting, and your job situation possibly changing so you are out most of the day.


----------



## GatorBytes

Mary Beth said:


> Yes, I agree with you that you spinning the roulette wheel. Lil has a ticking time bomb with the heartworms. In my view, the longer this is put off, the more risk for Lil. Since the funds are now available, I would go with your vet's advice and start the standard treatment. *If you wait, the available funds may be used up*. With working less hours, you will be home the majority of the time with Lil and that is for the best. * If you wait, your work situation could change and you will have to leave her more. Lil is doing very well with the retro and the majority of it is done. So now would be in my view, the best time*.


 
The treatment will still be put off. The meds are being couriered to the vet, so funds won't run out. That isn't a concern. My main objective is to do what is least toxic and effective form of treatment. And based on her activity level. She is a hyper wiggly worm who in a split second will get the zoomies.


Advantage multi was found to be over 95% effective and without withholding moderate exercise. That was at the 10 month mark. Dogs were put out with a playmate and only 1 had exercise intolerance and only once and that resolved on its own after 24 hrs.
Immiticide is a form of arsenic. The kill can happen fast, the dog could have an embolism depending on where the worm or the load is or she can go into anaphylactic shock and die too. Or can die from the immiticide.
Immiticide is 100% effective. Against male HW. Only 98% effective on females.


Even prior to the news of the reno, I was leaning toward the AM.


Lil is doing fine as long as I am here. 
My job situation can change tomorrow. It needs to. I have only been half heartedly looking. But I really have to get out there and get something with more shifts. HW treatment or not. And I cannot in good conscience leave her here alone with what has been going on with the LL's (not my doing)





Sunsilver said:


> I agree with Mary Beth. Honestly, I think YOU are more stressed out from the reno than Lil!
> 
> *Having you there with her during treatment is, I think, much better for her* than waiting, and your job situation possibly changing so you are out most of the day.


 
I cannot do this day after tomorrow. On a Sat. no less when emergency rates apply if something goes wrong and the e-clinic is 45 mins away.
This could have been an option if it was done in Oct. Like the rescue said, not Dec.


I am stressed from the *deliberate actions* to make me uncomfortable in my home by the LL's and/or their worker.
I am stressed b/c this dog is terrified of people, tucks tail tight and hides behind me. She has taken to growling whenever she sees LL's. And has suddenly learned to bark after she was left alone this past Sat. and the LL was here (witchypoo) on Sat.
I am stressed b/c of her threats
I am stressed b/c I WILL have to find full time work now. Not in couple months after treatment is complete


And I am sorry, I am not being contradictory you guys, just trying to sort this out, talk it out


----------



## Magwart

I just had another asymptomic dog that came through rescue test HW negative exactly a year after starting A-M, with a month of Doxy. She's a little older, but it was right on schedule. She was still testing positive in month 9, but in month 12, the test turned negative. We always do a little happy dance with that first negative test.

I think there's not a "wrong" decision, as long as you do one or the other in thoughtful consultation with your vet and thinking through the history and personality of the individual dog and its needs.


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## Heartandsoul

Magwart, is there anyway that an ultrasound can be done on an HW positive dog to help determine the worm load?


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## Magwart

They can take chest xrays. I've never heard of an ultrasound being done.


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## Heartandsoul

Magwart said:


> They can take chest xrays. I've never heard of an ultrasound being done.


I have just often wondered why ultrasounds aren't used more often as the first tool for diagnosing when soft tissue issues are suspected. From personal experience during my pregnancies, it is amazingly accurate and no risk that I'm aware of. Since the question of where the worms are and how heavey a load and what damage has already occurred along with being soft tissue and the answer a major deciding factor to slow or fast kill, my question stems from common sense thinking since I have no medical background.


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## GatorBytes

Lil update! She is still a crazy energetic zoomie monster. She has not shown any HW+ symptoms thus far. Even at the 3-4 month mark on Advantage Multi (noted by @Magwart). No cough, no slowing down, no exercise intolerance, no lethargy.


Went to the clinic to pick up her next 6 months of A-M. Weighed her...yikes! more about that later.
Had them do blood draw at time for HW test to see where we are at. IDK why really. Not expecting to come back neg. They had it scheduled for Apr. But doesn't make sense. That is "the time of yr" they schedule everyone. My vet wasn't in. The other vet was at the desk and was looking at our file and saying she will leave a note to let my vet decide to incl the microfilaria check. I'm like huh? 
Anyhow, All is well otherwise.


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## Heartandsoul

This is a good update. I have been wondering how things were going.


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## Magwart

EXCELLENT! 

It sounds like your vet staff is just covering bases and trying to figure this out, because Lil is their first one to do this protocol. You might let your vet know that Ad Multi is labeled in the U.S. as FDA-approved to kill microfilaria, so keeping her on it should ensure she won't have any (and the round of doxy is supposed to sterilize the HWs so they stop making microfilaria). 
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...acloprid--moxidectin-in-the-us-236678991.html

I probably wouldn't run another HW test until the 1 year mark from when she started. I've run them more often to try to pin down exactly when they turn negative, but it doesn't really make any difference (and mostly just creates worry).


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## GatorBytes

@Magwart
I found this article with question posed about alt to immiticide treatment. Fairly recent (dated for June 9/2017). This seems to be a diff study as it notes that 22 dogs were "enrolled" in the study as opposed to the study done on beagles (16 dogs that were euth'd at 10 months)
ACVIM (American Collage of Veterinary Internal Medicine)


At the 2017 ACVIM Forum in National Harbor, Maryland, Marisa Ames, DVM, DACVIM (Cardiology), discussed an alternative to the melarsomine protocol: topical treatment with moxidectin/imidacloprid plus oral doxycycline. Dr. Ames stressed that melarsomine is the recommended treatment but acknowledged that other options are sometimes needed.

Moxidectin/imidacloprid (Advantage Multi, Bayer Animal Health) is labeled as a heartworm preventive and microfilaricide for dogs. Compared with macrocyclic lactones (such as ivermectin), said Dr. Ames, moxidectin/imidacloprid reaches higher concentrations in blood and tissues and clears heartworms more quickly.

Dr. Ames’ team enrolled dogs with positive heartworm antigen tests in a prospective study of moxidectin/imidacloprid plus doxycycline. Dogs included the study generally had no or mild clinical signs. Dogs received topical moxidectin/imidacloprid at the labeled preventive dose but at an increased frequency of every 2 weeks for 3 months, then once a month. Dogs also received oral doxycycline for 15 days. Dogs were not restricted from exercise during the study.

The research team conducted heartworm antigen tests on days 90, 120, and 150 and every 2 months thereafter. Conventional antigen tests that yielded negative results were repeated with heat-treated serum. Owners of dogs whose antigen tests were positive after day 210 were offered melarsomine treatment.

Of the 22 dogs enrolled so far, said Dr. Ames, 72% had negative conventional antigen tests by 300 days and 91% had negative antigen tests by 1 year. Some of the dogs with negative conventional antigen test results had positive results with heat-treated serum; these results tended to convert to negative after a few months.

Some dogs developed a cough during the study and were treated with corticosteroids and/or cough suppressants. One dog vomited, she said, although it was not clear whether this was related to moxidectin/imidacloprid. In response to an audience question about reactions to dying microfilariae, Dr. Ames suggested that dogs be monitored at home or in the clinic for the first dose or 2.

According to the preliminary data, concluded Dr. Ames, moxidectin/imidacloprid plus doxycycline appears to be safe and well tolerated by dogs with mild to moderate heartworm infection and may be an acceptable alternative when melarsomine cannot be used.


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## GatorBytes

The Link (couldn't edit my post - happens sometimes)
ACVIM 2017: An Alternative Treatment for Heartworm Disease


Will know the test results later today.


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## Magwart

Thanks for that link!!! This research will result in more dogs getting access to treatment -- many owners simply can't do $1000+ and 3 mo. of crate rest, but they can do this alternative.

I had heard through the vet school grapevine that research was going on to shorten doxy from a month to a couple of weeks -- seeing it in print is GOOD news. Doxy is not just expensive, but a whole month of it is so hard on the gut. I'm really glad to hear they've figured out that 15 days is sufficient.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> Thanks for that link!!! This research will result in more dogs getting access to treatment -- many owners simply can't do $1000+ and 3 mo. of crate rest, but they can do this alternative.
> 
> I had heard through the vet school grapevine that research was going on to shorten doxy from a month to a couple of weeks -- seeing it in print is GOOD news. Doxy is not just expensive, but a whole month of it is so hard on the gut. I'm really glad to hear they've figured out that 15 days is sufficient.


Well, I got to say, Lil champed out on the doxy. Had 30 days (or 3 weeks, can't remember) at 100mg to treat the anaplasmosis, then a week later I get the meds from SPCA to start the Doxy for 30 days at 200 mg for the pre-HW treatment...this all while she was first given Metro for bacteria infection, then panacur for whips, then the other med for tapeworms, add Heartguard in there too. She was on drugs from a few days after I got her (July 14th) till end of Oct. approx. Plus there was the various vaccines and dewormer and flea prevention just prior to adoption event and/or transport to Canada.


I don't think she would have faired so well if it wasn't for adding in bone stock, Ashwagandha (for her anxiety, but immune support), AND of course @carmspack Feed Sentials and Sunday Sundae. Which came a couple weeks in I think...as took me that time to order (Carm shipped and had in ONE day). She loves it BTW!


I did not redo the doxy as she had already had 2 months worth when I started the A-M November.
I did not do Bi-weekly of A-M either. So not sure how that will fair with protocol based on links.
My vet did note this at the time that we went back and forth about the bi-weekly.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Glad Lil is doing well. Sounds like she is loving her new healthy life.


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## Sabis mom

Pictures! Need Lil pictures!


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## GatorBytes

Her test results...She is still HW+ however, her microfilaria smear was negative AND anaplasmosis came back negative TOO! So that is good news considering. Vet felt we didn't need another HW test until one yr mark. I said maybe we would consider it at 10 months per the studies. Would really love for her to be one to be clear at that point as might help others who cannot afford the $3000.00.
Plus the vet kinda referred to the how we are doing this as "allowing the HW to die off naturally over time"
So while I thought she saw potential in A-M, I guess she is a devout immiticide "gold standard" treatment kinda vet. 


I did mention I wanted to make an appointment next month and get blood work done. Just to check her values. Vet said that that timed out with her 1yr rabies etc vaccines if we wanted to visit that at the time.
yeah. no.


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## carmspack

did they say anything about serrapeptase to remove the dead wom from the blood?

so what were you going to say about her weight?


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## Magwart

carmspack said:


> did they say anything about serrapeptase to remove the dead wom from the blood?


For whatever it's worth, the dead ones land in the lung capillary beds, where they break down. The one really good thing about this slower method of treatment is they die off slowly, so it's one or two at a time embolizing, rather than a clump of them (which can happen with the immiticide treatment).

Can you help me understand how serrapeptase might be of benefit in that process?


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## GatorBytes

Hi all...it has been a while.
I am taking Lil in today to get her new script for Advantage Multi and will be getting a blood draw for her HW check. Crossing my fingers she is negative.
I kinda messed things up on her last dosing which was supposed to be first week in Oct and that would reflect the 12 month mark that Magwart has referenced in her exp. coming up neg.
Somehow I put off this last dose until Nov. I did use it, it is time for new script. If she came up neg I was going to stop using. However, we caught fleas (sigh) in Oct.


Anyhow, She is being tested at the 13 month mark (started this Nov. 1st/2017) Tested at 6 months still positive. Decided against testing at 10 months.
SO off to vet shortly
Wish us luck


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## middleofnowhere

May the test come back negative...


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## GatorBytes

middleofnowhere said:


> May the test come back negative...



Thank you. We will know tomorrow.

She is 2lbs over the dosing script she was getting. The receptionist wanted to sell me the next size up which is 56 to 100lbs. She was 3lbs over when I decided to stick with the up to 55lbs. I felt the chemicals in this would still be as effective. Maybe not so much as flea killer. Splitting hairs on 55 to 57/58 lbs. The company would not cover if she were to get HW on lower dose, but that isn't relevant to this situation.
I opted to wait until tomorrow to get the AM once test results back


She is still a wild crazy zoomie nutter. She has had no symptoms except a honk on rare occasions back in the beginning when I got her and even rarer during treatment. In fact nothing in last few months.


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## GatorBytes

The vet called me today. 
She is still HW+ but still microfilaria negative
She is however back to being anaplasmosis positive. sigh 
If you remember, She came back negative 6 months after ending 2nd round of doxy. Now 7 months after that test she is positive.
Anaplasmosis is not common here and the vet even had to look up what to look for in a CBC to see if she is symptomatic of disease.
She may just be a carrier now.


I am waiting to hear back as to if there was enough blood collected so they can add on a mini wellness (CBC and Chem) to check the WBC, RBC, Platelets etc.
Otherwise when I go in to get her new AM script, I may have too bring her to for more blood draw 


I found this https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/anaplasmosis-in-dogs
Although most dogs clinically improve, it may be difficult to determine whether or not a dog is no longer infected. If a dog stops producing antibodies to the organism, this may indicate that the organism has been cleared from the body. Even if a dog that has been infected with anaplasmosis is treated and returned to normal, the dog may continue to test positive for the infection on subsequent blood tests. However, this doesn’t mean that the dog has an active infection, and a second round of antibiotic therapy to try to obtain a negative blood test is generally not recommended.


Several sites say same. Not to repeat doxy to get a negative as may never happen


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## Magwart

Aw, nuts. 



We've had a few dogs with heavy worm loads take 18 months, but never longer than that. She may have just had a lot of them, unfortunately. I do also think that under-dosing her might be worth thinking about too -- I've always up-sized to the next highest tube if they're on the borderline. (Example - One of mine is about 57 pounds, just over the dividing line between the 20-55 and 55-88 pound tubes...he gets the "big boy" tube.) You can also buy the 88+ tubes and pull out the exact right dose for the weight of the dog and leave the leftovers in a pill bottle for next time, if your vet can do the calculation for you. I have a few friends with multi-dog households who do that -- they buy the giant size, and then use it to measure out exact doses based on current weight to save money.


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## gsdoglife

Wow Magwart thanks for the detailed info!


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## ksotto333

Glad to hear updates, it's been a while. I don't stay up to date on dog health issues so I'm not real clear on what everything means that she tested for,but hoping she gets and stays better. Take care.


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