# Breeder Experiences/Negative Experiences



## armauro (May 6, 2008)

As a participant in this forum for over two years it is appparent that there is a clique of people here who squash any negative info about peoples experiences with a particular breeder which potential gs dog buyers might find very informative. This forum should ideally be a clearinghouse of experiences good bad or horrible wherein people can exchange their ideas and protect each other from making the same mistakes.
This may sound controversial but.... the bad people in this business should be exposed so that we all are protected.
JUST MHO.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Who will protect the board when the lawsuits start happening? 
I remember a couple years ago a well known kennel started threatening the admin and some of the other breeders and some posters who frequent this board because they weren't supporting that kennel when there was a thread going on more or less bashing that kennels price brackets, amount of dogs they were selling and how many of those dogs were not being taken back by the breeder if the owners no longer wanted them(they were turning up in shelters, rescue, or CL)
Nothing that was posted was untruthful, but you can't expect this board to be protected from a lawsuit because of what is posted here.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

What clique are you talking about??? Do you mean the admin and moderators? Well, hate to break it to you, but it's against forum rules to "breeder bash", even if it's truthful.

You don't run the board, so you can't make the rules unfortunately.

I agree it would be nice to have some stuff in the open with what people have experienced...but if the people who own the board don't want to expose themselves to potential lawsuits then there isn't anything you can do about it.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

I guess the old saying- "the truth hurts" is very applicable so the bad breeders stay protected- lawsuits are a fact of life in this society but the basis of the suit must be well founded.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I think the original owner of the board just felt like why deal with that kind of crap and the potential fall out? And you can't blame her, remember she started this board as a place for lovers of the breed to get together and help each other. It was a form of relaxation for her.

And I have seen reputations ruined or badly hurt by misinformation spread on the internet, sometimes with the sole motivation of hurting someone.

But you can protect yourself. You can google. You can ask for people to send you negatives via pm.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

armauro said:


> As a participant in this forum for over two years it is appparent that there is a clique of people here who squash any negative info about peoples experiences with a particular breeder which potential gs dog buyers might find very informative. This forum should ideally be a clearinghouse of experiences good bad or horrible wherein people can exchange their ideas and protect each other from making the same mistakes.
> This may sound controversial but.... the bad people in this business should be exposed so that we all are protected.
> JUST MHO.


I don't disagree with you. There has been many of a time I have seen people close ranks around someone, look the other way or just shrug their shoulders. 

I'm not sure what the solution is.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Betty said:


> And I have seen reputations ruined or badly hurt by misinformation spread on the internet, sometimes with the sole motivation of hurting someone.


Amen to that. There are people out there who just get angry because something is wrong with their dog. They didn't pay attention to the contract they signed, they want money back above and beyond the purchase price fo the dog. There are bad breeders out there for sure. But there are also plenty of bad buyers. The kind of slander that starts showing up when people are allowed to air all their grudges can be pretty ugly. Standards for breeders are subjective (regardless of the general consensus) and what I hate to see is when people come on the board, see terrible things about where their dog came from and start to devalue their dog. 

The solution is experience and research. What someone didn't like in a breeder or in their dogs may never be a problem for someone else. Personally, this is why I am a big fan of new owners supporting "local" breeders. Breeders that are in a geographic location suitable for driving/visits. 2 reasons basically for this. 1. You get to actually see the facilities, meet the people and the dogs. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for how they fit you. Yes- some people can do this through phone interview successfully- me, I don't love it. Opinions on dogs cna be very subjective. People don't always represent things in an objective manner. 2. Support. There are varying levels of support that can be expected between a breeder and a buyer. Some buyers take their puppies and are off into the sunset never to be heard from again. Some send weekly picture updates. A local breeder is going to be able to offer significantly more support than a breeder from far away- especially if you are looking into any kind of competitive venue. They're going to know the trainers, the vets, etc. It's always nice to show up to a show, trial, whatever, and see your breeder and know that they will be rooting for your dog! And everyone will be working on a more level field. 

Once a person has more breed experience I think they can make a better informed decision based on conversations, pedigrees, etc. and start to shop further out of field.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Information about bad breeders can still be sent privately via PM to those requesting the information. It's just against board rules to post it publically!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

We all still have the opportunity to share our less than positive experiences with other members, we just have to do it through a PM. That system has certainly worked for me over the last few years. It is not as if we are "banned" from sharing any negative information.

This rule is applied evenly throughout the membership here. It isn't a clique of powerful members in control of what does or doesn't get said. It is a group of volunteer moderators enforcing board rules.
Sheilah


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

When I joined this board, I asked for experiences with breeders in the Pacific NW, and I got LOADS of feedback, good and bad. The good usually came in the post, and the bad via PM. I kept a running list of every breeder that was mentioned with the good and bad points and experiences in the list.

You just have to ask, and usually people with bad experiences WILL send a private message and you can judge for yourself how accurate it is or how much weight you want to give each 'issue.' After awhile it becomes VERY clear who that problem breeders are because you get 90% bad feedback on them. I narrowed down to 2 breeders in the end, who had all positive comments and no negative.

I agree that putting negative comments on the board is bad news. Someone could have an agenda, or be lying, and then that comment about that breeder is out there in cyberspace for anyone who googles them. Not fair. So just ask for PMs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't know. Recently another board member, Vukc, and I both had what we perceived to be negative experiences with two separate breeders. We were allowed to post factual information about what actually happened to us. Not "I don't like this on the website" or "I heard this and that," but "This is what is actually happening TO ME". So I guess that's allowed.


Edit: Vukc's experience ended well. Mine ended so/so.


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## vukc (Dec 22, 2009)

Emoore - I concur, but just wanted to add following (not meaning to jump this tread)......My experience is so far so good - but have to wait another 6 weeks to make sure it stays good. 

In regards to bad and good breeders experiences.... Using PM's is just fine, although sometimes you wish that the really bad ones would be publicly exposed provided there are pure facts which can back up the claims.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

JKlatsky said:


> Personally, this is why I am a big fan of new owners supporting "local" breeders. Breeders that are in a geographic location suitable for driving/visits. 2 reasons basically for this. 1. You get to actually see the facilities, meet the people and the dogs. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for how they fit you. Yes- some people can do this through phone interview successfully- me, I don't love it. Opinions on dogs cna be very subjective. People don't always represent things in an objective manner. 2. Support. There are varying levels of support that can be expected between a breeder and a buyer. Some buyers take their puppies and are off into the sunset never to be heard from again. Some send weekly picture updates. A local breeder is going to be able to offer significantly more support than a breeder from far away- especially if you are looking into any kind of competitive venue. They're going to know the trainers, the vets, etc. It's always nice to show up to a show, trial, whatever, and see your breeder and know that they will be rooting for your dog! And everyone will be working on a more level field.
> 
> Once a person has more breed experience I think they can make a better informed decision based on conversations, pedigrees, etc. and start to shop further out of field.


This is excellent advice. If there isn't a local breeder that fits your needs than at least make a trip to meet your potential breeder in person. A long drive is nothing compared to the lifetime you will be spending with your new dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If people want to publicly expose bad breeders there are other boards that allow this. We are just not one of them. There is no way for us to verify if what is being said is true nor to prevent a breeder's reputation (or even a buyer's) from being unjustly damaged.

Admin Lisa

*****


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is extremely difficult to inform a stranger of any issue known or perceived about a breeder - it is risky and can backfire on you causing a tremendous problem.

When you want info, you need to 'read between the lines' - you need to ask if you can talk to someone on the phone - you need to reassure the person with info that you will NOT repeat it...Even innocent comments about a bloodline or family made as a generality can be misconstrued and cause a holy war when repeated! I had someone talking to me about a puppy for months - MONTHS - go to another breeder and MISQUOTE me about a known risk/health issue - that any number of people in Europe who communicate via lists here in the States could be contacted and they could verify the info themselves - we knew the same sources and it ruined a cordial relationship and caused awkwardness for years! 

If anyone went on and posted stud dog XV von Z produced 2 EPI dogs from Kennel ABC - owner of kennel ABC would be breathing fire and calling a lawyer - no matter if it were true!!! Would not matter that puppy XV son's owner is open about the EPI - going public or even private in writing in a factual way- is very very risky. 

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Where do breeders get to EXPOSE bad buyers, bad potential puppy buyers?

Sometimes someone comes on here and they say, "Wow, I was just at this puppy mill." And then they describe it. They describe perfectly normal things that would be found anywhere there are puppies. The puppies were wet. There was some grass in the water dish. We do not have the Puppy Possee that can run to each of these breeders and verify what the people are posting. 

And there are vindictive people in the world. Rushie's breeder had Animal Control called on him because he refused to lower his price. They came out and checked out her complaint and told him he was fine, that they had to come out, but they had problems with this person in the past. So, this site would be an outlet for people like this to bash people.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The rule against slamming breeders is arbitrarily & inconsistently enforced (OR NOT) largely as the mods/admins decide. Enforcement is decidedly biased. Be that as it is, I'm opposed to breaking a rule just cuz others do & feel that the rule supports the kind of board this is intended to be. There are benefits (& disadvantages) to both free for all & the more constrained boards. This board clearlyaims for a modicum of restraint.

Emoore & Vukc, your posts that I saw were factual, generally non-judgmental & not hyper-critical. I think that your respectful & restrained demeanor had much to do with keeping the discussions within acceptable bounds.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

RubyTuesday said:


> The rule against slamming breeders is arbitrarily & inconsistently enforced (OR NOT) largely as the mods/admins decide. Enforcement is decidedly biased.


Did you send a notification on a breeder bashing post and have it ignored? Or are you assuming that just because the post or posts in question were not removed it was deliberate rather than an oversight? Moderators and administrators do not read every single post in every single thread on the board, and often not even in our own forums. This is a very large and active board and we're stretched thin, not to mention that this is volunteer work done in our spare time, fit in as we can around our work and life schedules. The best way to get action on something is to bring it to our attention by clicking on that "notify" button.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Did you send a notification on a breeder bashing post and have it ignored? Or are you assuming that just because the post or posts in question were not removed it was deliberate rather than an oversight? Moderators and administrators do not read every single post in every single thread on the board, and often not even in our own forums. This is a very large and active board and we're stretched thin, not to mention that this is volunteer work done in our spare time, fit in as we can around our work and life schedules. The best way to get action on something is to bring it to our attention by clicking on that "notify" button.


 
^^^^ Yup.

I also think perhaps people aren't clear on what constitutes bashing under the way the board rules have been interpreted for years.

If a website is posted, people have always been free to comment on content of the website. Saying they don't agree with this or that, would like to see pedigrees or titles, the dog's don't look nice, don't agree with breeding blue and liver long coats, etc... In other words, opinions based on publically available information that the breeder put out there are allowed so long as they stick to verifiable facts. For example, a breeder spelling it "shepard" is a simple fact if it is there on their website for all to see. Really not a two sides to every story situation. Though of course opinion sharing must not cross the line into a rant.

What is not allowed is sharing or commenting on non-public information, sharing private info such as personal experiences or what was heard in the rumor mill because these are the sort of things where stories and information on which they are based cannot be verified. Though even here there is some leeway depending on how it is presented. Emoore's deposit thread being an example. There was no ranting or bashing, just a sharing of the process.

And nothing that is clearly intended for the sole purpose of bashing is permitted.


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## jkscandi50 (Nov 17, 2010)

It's been a while since I looked it up (3 yrs or so), but isn't the publisher of the forum protected under Federal Communications Decency Act (47 U.S.C. § 230) -- Section 230 forbids the imposition of publisher liability on a service provider for the exercise of its editorial and self-regulatory functions. See also Doe v. America Online, Inc., 783 So. 2d 1010 (Fla. 2001); and Zebran v. America Online, Inc., 958 F.Supp. 1124 (E.D.Va.. 1997)?? I know a lot has changed since we had to deal with it (2007 or 2008) - and I don't want to start researching the issue again... but - maybe one of the mods would like to check it out - or if someone is an attorney on this board?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This is a Canadian owned board. Always has been.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jkscandi50 said:


> but - maybe one of the mods would like to check it out - or if someone is an attorney on this board?


I doubt the mods have any interest in it. They don't own the board or make the rules. If those are the rules the owners want to make, then oh well.


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

I am brand new to this forum and I just wrote out my response to this thread and somehow it did not post or??? Guess I don't know what I am doing as it said to "refresh" the page and log in again. Then I lost my entire post. I am going to try to post this sample message and see if it goes and then re-write my thougths on this matter. Have patience with me because I feel strongly about this subject.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

lhczth said:


> If people want to publicly expose bad breeders there are other boards that allow this. We are just not one of them. There is no way for us to verify if what is being said is true nor to prevent a breeder's reputation (or even a buyer's) from being unjustly damaged.
> 
> Admin Lisa
> 
> *****


I couldn't agree more with this.
We always hear about the buyer and the long sad story that comes with them. MANY times the breeder is never on this site and has no way of defending themselves.

As with everything, there are 3 sides to the story, his,hers & the truth.

Then you also have a lot of people giving opinions on breeders and they may have only heard somethings second hand, talked to the breeder once or may have a grudge to bear.

Info should be PM'd due to the reasons stated.


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

Hello and be patient with me as this is my very 1st post (2nd I guess).
I feel so passionate about this subject because of my recent experiences as it relates to what I consider an unscrupulous breeder. I guess from what I have just read we are not allowed to mention any names of kennels or breeders so I will refrain but I think it is unjust and I only wished someone would have written about thier experience with this particular breeder to save me some heart-ache and pain!

I purchased my GSD puppy after talking to this breeder for close to a year that I met on-line and was impressed with his discussions about good lineage and his philosophy in choosing his breed stock from German dogs that were titled in Schutzhund. The photos of his breed stock were impressive and I felt I had done some good research in finding the pedigree database website and checking out the parents and grandparents etc. of the dam and sire I planned on getting a pup from. So much for good intentions. The person above is correct in that I should have made the trip to visit this kennel and look at the breed stock and environment and then returned again to actually pick my pup from the litter.

My puppy arrived at 8 weeks of age with blood shot eyes, ears infested with debris and sores and while she was still beautiful to me she was very tiny and I had to wonder if maybe she was younger than 8 weeks of age?

I took her to my vet, immediately, only to discover that she had conjunctivitis in her eyes, horrible yeast infections in both ears and Giardia in her intestines. She ate dirt, rocks, grass and twigs incessantly upon arrival. Her stools were runny, deplorable and she ate them too. Not my vision for my 1st week of happiness with my brand new baby girl. I was devastated, to say the least. I had never heard of Giardia up until this point in time but did lots of research on the internet after my vet told me it was contagious to humans and to be careful, wear gloves when picking up stools, sanitize the ground afterward, wipe off her bottom and paws before coming back inside and just to take caution because of its infectious nature. There was also the aspect of her eating her stools and re-infection if I didn't grab her immediately while medicating her. To stalk your brand new puppy with a flash-light during night time hours is not how I thought I would spend my 1st week of bonding. 

I spent what I consider to be an amount of money that should insure a puppy with not only good lineage, looks and health but also one that would arrive free of infections. I was so saddened to see her in that condition and while I am human and know that nothing in life is perfect and one might expect to find maybe one thing amiss, to have both eyes, ears and intestines compromised seemed over the top. 

I can only hope to learn more from this forum on how to go about finding a good and reputable breeder and hope this message serves someone to do their due diligence when seeking out a pet for their life, yard and home. I am now told that the Giardia parasite maybe hard to irradicate from my grounds. I hope that is not true and look to others in this forum for any advice or suggestions on how to find a heathy puppy that will live a long and useful life. Thanks for posting this subject and thread as it made me join this forum in hopes that I may save someone from the miserable experience I have just endured. I returned my pup after having her for one week. I suffered miserably afterward. I had no idea that I was so bonded to her after only a week's time. I have written too much here but suffice it to say, this has really been a horrible time for me.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Gretsch said:


> I can only hope to learn more from this forum on how to go about finding a good and reputable breeder and hope this message serves someone to do their due diligence when seeking out a pet for their life, yard and home. I am now told that the Giardia parasite maybe hard to irradicate from my grounds. I hope that is not true and look to others in this forum for any advice or suggestions on how to find a heathy puppy that will live a long and useful life. Thanks for posting this subject and thread as it made me join this forum in hopes that I may save someone from the miserable experience I have just endured. I returned my pup after having her for one week. I suffered miserably afterward. I had no idea that I was so bonded to her after only a week's time. I have written too much here but suffice it to say, this has really been a horrible time for me.


What a miserable experience. How'd he ship a puppy in that condition? They're required to have health certificates from the vet. 

Your story is a good argument for getting references and/or visiting a breeder and the parents whenever possible.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Health certificates can be forged. I even had an adult dog shipped to me with the wrong name on the vet cert.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

And the "BEAT GOES ON WITH LESS THAN SCRUPULOUS BREEDERS"- interesting especially that the gsd is now the #2 in popularity dog- should make for many more horror stories going forward. I have dealt with the above breeder and the experience has not been anything like the above but now realize the pup he sold me brought the Giardia into my home and infected my immuno suppressed gsd which eventually died two months later from complications from IBD which were intensified by the severe case of giardia which we had trouble eraticating. He had a malabsorption issue from the IBD and the giardia made controlling his disease ever more difficult.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think you need to be a private detective at this point to research a breeder! You WILL hear positive and negative about everyone! Sometimes the negative is true and sometimes it is the delusional fantasy of a psychotic....but - take your research with caution - does the person recommending a breeder KNOW them personally? do they have a dog from the breeder and what do they do with it? do they train with dogs from the kennel? Or are they cyber fans who have never seen a dog from the kennel, have never seen any dog competitions....do they have a sufficient knowledge base on which to make an evaluation? Are they knowledgable about the statistics of production of the kennel??? Do you get reasonable explanations of negative recommendations - good reason for a 'no'???

At this point I recommend 3 maybe 4 showline breeders that I personally know and/or have friends with that kennels dogs...period....same wtih working lines....last pup I got for a client came from Europe as we could not find anything here that we were both enthusiatic about - and he got a megastar puppy! Too many rah rah recommendations about big name kennels float around and the recommenders know nothing about the kennel except for the web site being gorgeous and the show results!

Lee


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> I think you need to be a private detective at this point to research a breeder! You WILL hear positive and negative about everyone! Sometimes the negative is true and sometimes it is the delusional fantasy of a psychotic....but - take your research with caution - does the person recommending a breeder KNOW them personally? do they have a dog from the breeder and what do they do with it? do they train with dogs from the kennel? *Or are they cyber fans who have never seen a dog from the kennel, have never seen any dog competitions.*...do they have a sufficient knowledge base on which to make an evaluation? Are they knowledgable about the statistics of production of the kennel??? Do you get reasonable explanations of negative recommendations - good reason for a 'no'???
> 
> At this point I recommend 3 maybe 4 showline breeders that I personally know and/or have friends with that kennels dogs...period....same wtih working lines....last pup I got for a client came from Europe as we could not find anything here that we were both enthusiatic about - and he got a megastar puppy! Too many rah rah recommendations about big name kennels float around and the recommenders know nothing about the kennel except for the web site being gorgeous and the show results!
> 
> Lee



Just want to say I really like that term "Cyber fans". I feel like I can add that to "keyboard trainers".  Ahh, this digital information age.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Very good post, Lee. I do not recommend a breeder I have never met and seen their dogs and I just keep my opinions to myself about breeders that I wouldn't buy from.


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

Well ya know, I never even thought about "forging" a health certificate as it relates to the question above regarding how the pup was shipped in such condition but let me quash that idea now, although I am sure it has been done. I just took out the copy of the health cert. and checked to see if the letters looked same as if possibly forged and for the record I did receive a full refund of my purchase price but that did not cover shipping both ways (he charged me 3 times the amt for shipping vs. my return shipping cost). And I didn't receive anything for my vet bills or all of the new toys, beds, blankets etc. that could not be washed in hot clorox water and had to be disposed. And along with the refund that came via registered mail was a letter from the breeder's vet on her letter head (I suppose that could have been forged, huh?) but she states in her letter that she examined an 8 week old female GS puppy on such and such date from said breeder and found puppy to be "bright, alert, and responsive with normal vitals". She goes on to say, "no health problems were reported by the owner". She goes further and ends with "puppy was deemed healthy to fly". I have to say that the girl at the cargo desk at the airport said to me immediately when I picked her up "why are her eyes so red"? Anyway, the breeder has a link on his website listing this vet so maybe that accounts for something (back-scratching) but my "dectective" thought was not "forgery" as much as there were 2 females in this litter and I was supposed to have "pick of the litter" since I was so premature with my deposit. I thought it was a bit strange that I didn't receive more photos of the female pups, along the way as I continuously asked for photos and only received a handful, and also of the entire litter and also that the breeder did not color code the puppies like so many other breeders do with either colored collars or fabric or ribbon or whatever breeders use to identify and track these pups as they mature. How else can you do the supposed "temperment testing" etc.? Anyway, my thought when I got this letter from his vet was maybe he took the "other" female pup in to get the health certificate and "saved" her for a possible local sale vs. screwing some jackass like me who was remote and lived several states away. It was just my thought and while looking back at the few photos I did receive, one of the female pups had more predominant redness in her eyes than the other one did. These were the final photos he sent to me before delivery and I made the decision right then and there (I think the pups were supposedly 7 weeks when photo was taken) but I replied back that I wanted the female "on the left". As I look back it was her eyes that were more clear and I even sent him this photo upon my very last communication with him and told him to look at the eyes of both of his female pups in the attached photo (I blew up the eyes) and for him to try to tell me he didn't know she was infected.

When the breeder returned my purchase price he indicated that he has never had this problem in his kennel before this and he has no idea what happened. I am sorry but in looking back at the limited photos he did send to me there is evidence of other pups in this litter that had, as my sister said to me, "sad eyes". That's because they were blood-shot and infected from the Giardia going back and forth from licking and preening each other. 
Sorry but I just get so emotional about this because I do miss that little tyke. She took a piece of my heart only after a week's time. I am so upset that someone would send an innocent puppy in this condition not to mention the heart-break and turmoil it causes the expectant owner. He's a disgrace in my eyes and should never be allowed to engage with the public, families and pet owners unless and until he cleans up his kennel. I am sure there are many breeders reading this that do not agree with me and I am sure you all have your own set of problems but one cannot imagine the heart-break and emotional toll this has taken. I am sure that many unscrupulous breeders rely upon this happening and know full well that most people would not even consider returning a defective pet because of the "bonding' issues. I've said too much, again....this is really upsetting.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

poor puppy....hope she gets medical attention....very very sad...

Lee


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

Lee,

Puppy got medical attention. I would never allow that to happen in my world. I took pup to my vet as soon as I received her. Vet spent about 2 hours with us just cleaning her ears, doing the cytology work on her ears, examing her eyes and entire body and doing what a good vet does upon initial visit. 

She prescribed Panacur Rx for the Giardia which I gave her for 5 consecutive days, Mometamax ear drops along with Epi-Otic ear cleaner and NeoPolyDex Rx ointment for her eyes. I treated her with all of the above for the entire time that she was in my possession. I included all of these Rx atop her crate upon her return with full instructions to the breeder. I emailed and phoned him with no response asking him to let me know if she arrived safely. I made sure she finished her last dose of the Panacur (for Giardia) before sending her back. I had to check with the airlines to make sure that she was picked up because breeder did not respond. 

In hindsight, I should never have used the pup as the messenger but I was delirious after a week of Giardia stools and poop eating and rice and chicken and clorox spray bottles, disposable gloves and baby wipes, flash-lights, dripping pooper scooper, plastic baggies, no sleep, potty training, eating dirt clods, bathing shedding cysts, washing my entire bed and linens, puppy's bed and blankets etc. All the new toys and hopes and excitement of a new puppy were washed down the drain when Giardia and stool eating entered my home and yard. I made a big mistake in sending her back into his hands but I didn't think it thru entirerly. If I had it to do over again I would have just sent my 600 lb gorilla but I was delirious with the thoughts and fears that if a breeder would send an expensive puppy in this condition then what of his breed standards? What of her future and genetics? I should have just rolled the dice and taken the punches but what can I say? I failed to see the big picture with no realization of how attached I'd become. I'm only human but at least I can say I am humane.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Many have gone thru some horrific and sad experiences with puppies/dogs/breeders.

I count myself very very lucky in that the three dogs I've purchased sight unseen, have been exactly what I wanted, and all healthy. One from rescue, the other two breeders. 

I don't have an answer as to why people who end up with sad cases like these can't find a responsible breeder. There is so much info via the net, good and bad. So many really educated people on this board and others than can offer an opinion/referral. 

While it isn't feasible for most, I think it's best to meet breeders in person


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

lhczth said:


> Very good post, Lee. I do not recommend a breeder I have never met and seen their dogs and I just keep my opinions to myself about breeders that I wouldn't buy from.



Thanks Lisa - the ethical problems arise when someone does ask, buys and has problems, and then is upset because no one told them...or does not buy and it comes out that a poor recommendation was given....been there and we all know the **** raising it causes to tell the truth! So the innocent buyer is screwed, the breeder goes on making tons of $$$ and many poor females are churning out pups that are poorly cared for/poor quality/whatever problems there may be ...

So I give out recommendations and say nothing about the rest now - just feel buyers need to read between the lines a bit more than take all the cyber fans seriously!

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Gretsch said:


> Lee,
> 
> Puppy got medical attention. I would never allow that to happen in my world. I took pup to my vet as soon as I received her. Vet spent about 2 hours with us just cleaning her ears, doing the cytology work on her ears, examing her eyes and entire body and doing what a good vet does upon initial visit. <SNIP>
> 
> I made a big mistake in sending her back into his hands but I didn't think it thru entirerly. If I had it to do over again I would have just sent my 600 lb gorilla but I was delirious with the thoughts and fears that if a breeder would send an expensive puppy in this condition then what of his breed standards? What of her future and genetics? I should have just rolled the dice and taken the punches but what can I say? I failed to see the big picture with no realization of how attached I'd become. I'm only human but at least I can say I am humane.


I saw that you were treating her - I guess I was dismayed that the pup went back to the same conditions that caused the problems......too late to consider what other options you had legally - this is one breeder that it would have been great if you had paid via credit card!!!! My comment was not a judgement at all - in fact - maybe having had a pup returned, he might decide that he needs to clean up his problems - just a gut reaction to the pups condition, and being sent back to the source of them to get dumped back in with the rest of them and probably reinfected...

I understand you feel bad - and totally understand! I have sold 2 pups that I had a bad bad gut feeling about and wished I hadn't within an hour....turned out badly too...........still feel bad about it years later....

Lee


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think the people just THINK they are doing a ton of research and know what they are doing, but they don't. Not to say that people can't still get screwed, not matter what. But that they still go into things not realizing what a "responsible breeder" is and what is expected out of the process.

Sorry, Gretsch, to use you as an example (no doubt you had a really bad experience). But reputable breeders don't let you have "pick of the litter" because you got a deposit in early. They pick a puppy FOR you based on your wants and what you are getting the puppy for (i.e. "active pet home" versus "hopeful WUSV competitor"). And certainly wouln't let you pick what puppy you wanted based on pictures (of course, the exception being if there was more than 1 puppy in the litter who would be equally good for you). Those would be red flags for me if a breeder was saying they would do these things for me.

Those are the types of things that easily get outed on this forum. You post the link, people on here see "get your deposit in early for your very own pick of the litter!" and people can give you their concerns with statement like these--that usually indicate other things are also "off." 

So it does go both ways. No excuse for bad breeders, but the consumer really needs to get better and better about truly realizing what makes a "good breeder" and not just convincing themselves they do. I've seen it time and time on here where people say things like "I knew what I was doing! I did 2 years of research!" (not saying this is you Gertsch)...yet got a dog from a breeder with 3 generations of untitled parents with bad temperments. And when you try to point that out, all they do is argue "I DID do a ton of research!"


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDElsa said:


> I think the people just THINK they are doing a ton of research and know what they are doing, but they don't. Not to say that people can't still get screwed, not matter what. But that they still go into things not realizing what a "responsible breeder" is and what is expected out of the process.


I agree with you. Also, there's really no substitute for going out there, looking the breeder in the eye, shaking his/her hand, meeting the dogs, touring their facilites, etc. 

I really think that the integrity of the individual, their willingness to let you come out and go over their place and meet all their dogs and answer a million questions and talk bloodlines with you for ever. . . really speaks more about the "reputableness" of a breeder than their dogs' titles.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Another thing that people should do (and I know this is not easy), is try to contact others that have dogs from this breeder and ask about the dog and their experiences with the dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is as easy as the breeder lets it. One reason I went with the breeder I did, was because of the past litter information on the website, showing what/how the dogs of all the past litters were doing. 
The breeder also gave me several references of people who purchased pups(after I was screened). 
Transparency is key and if the breeder isn't being transparent, then that is a huge red flag, IMO.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think another problem is that many people believe that if they do everything right, research, go with a breeder with good references, etc that their puppy should never have any issues. When they do get a puppy with health issues they feel betrayed so now this breeder is a piece of **** to be attacked all over the internet. They forget that we are working with living creatures and sometimes bad things happen.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What Lisa said. Puppies from any kennel may have Giardia, diarrhea, worms, ear infections etc, they require sleepless nights, and it really doesn't make their breeders a POS breeder, sorry. I can't believe that the vet made a client think that Giardia is a deadly disease.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

armauro said:


> This may sound controversial but.... the bad people in this business should be exposed so that we all are protected.
> JUST MHO.


 The issue is what exactly makes a breeder "bad"? If you asked everyone on this forum what a good breeder was or did, you'd get a really wide range of answers. One might have bad luck, get a dog with an issue from a great breeder and then want to slam that breeder every chance they get. IMO more than individual critiques of specific breeders, people should be educated on how to find the puppy that is most likely to suit their needs and how to weigh the odds in their favor. But they also need to be educated that there are no "genetically normal" dogs, all dogs have the potential to produce any range of health or temperament traits, both good _and bad_. Puppies are always the biggest gamble. If you want a dog with a guarantee of having good hips and specific temperament traits, your best to buy a health tested adult. that has those traits.


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

Never said that vet made me think Giardia was a "deadly" disease. She just warned me that I needed to take extra precautions when picking up her stools and because the puppy ate her stools to also be vigilant about her not re-infecting herself while I was treating her with the medication.
Vet wanted me to know that this is contagious to humans and to wear disposable gloves etc. I had never heard of Giardia before this and have had several GSD before this experience. I think if the pup did not eat her stools then I could have seen the light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GSD07 said:


> I can't believe that the vet made a client think that Giardia is a deadly disease.


Me either! Both of my current dogs had giardia as pups, and some resulting digestive issues, and both of them are perfectly fine, with perfectly normal poop. I didn't do any extreme measures to sanitize their environment either.


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## My2Furkids (Sep 21, 2010)

What some others have said about rotten luck even with great breeders is sooo true. My puppy came from a breeder I would return to for another puppy in a HEARTBEAT, and he came down with encephalitis last week. I know though that his breeding has nothing to do with it, and would never ever say anything to reflect that it wasn't just a stroke of really awful luck


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Gretsch said:


> Vet wanted me to know that this is contagious to humans and to wear disposable gloves etc.


 Your vet should have not practiced medicine without a license and rather stick to his veterinary stuff. Giardia is contagious and transmitted from person to person, but the type of giardia that infests dogs is not proven to be transmitted to humans. Giardia is pretty common in dogs, if diagnosed on early stages than one week of Panacur or Metro is usually enough for clearing it completely, and a few weeks for settling GI tract. I do not know anyone who wipes their dog's butts and bleaches the entire house.

Sorry about your experience, but you basically treated your pup and sent it back healthy. I hope the pup landed in a good home.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Eh, I figure giardia isn't so bad. I know many a hiker who's come out of the bush with a little "Beaver Fever" and they've lived to tell about it :rofl:


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Your vet should have not practiced medicine without a license and rather stick to his veterinary stuff. Giardia is contagious and transmitted from person to person, but the type of giardia that infests dogs is not proven to be transmitted to humans. Giardia is pretty common in dogs, if diagnosed on early stages than one week of Panacur or Metro is usually enough for clearing it completely, and a few weeks for settling GI tract. I do not know anyone who wipes their dog's butts and bleaches the entire house.
> 
> Sorry about your experience, but you basically treated your pup and sent it back healthy. I hope the pup landed in a good home.


You seem to exaggerate some of the things I have posted. I never said my vet indicated that Giardia was deadly, didn't say that I bleached my entire house and as far as your indication that my vet shouldn't practice medicine w/out a license what gives you the right to assume that my vet is not licensed? 

Why don't you go visit this link at the Center for Disease Control and read a little bit about Giardia before you pretend to be such an authority. The CDC indicates under their "prevention and control" page as it relates to Giardia and humans to "wash your hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, cleaning surfaces as well" for a variety of reasons including the following: 

After handling animals or their toys, leashes, or feces (poop) 

Here's the link to the specific page. Maybe you need to learn a bit more about this parasite. 

CDC - Giardia - Prevention & Control

And as far as my pup landing in a good home; when I contacted the breeder regarding the status of the pup it had been re-homed within a couple days of breeder receiving it. Sadly, my educated Vet indicated that a re-test should have been done in 2 weeks because it generally takes 2 runs of meds to eradicate the parasite completely. The breeder re-homed the pup with a prior customer who had an existing GSD from his kennel. My hope was this breeder informed these prior customers of the risk of taking in a pup who could still be infected with the Giardia parasite so as not to infect the existing dog. Doubtful since he sent me a pup with a variety of infections.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

So, your vet is MD as well? Cool down, Gretsch, and keep learning. Glad the puppy is in a new home with an experienced owner who's not afraid to take care of his animals instead of venting online about bad breeders. 

PS It's a common sense to wash your hands as often as possible, no need to consult CDC for that.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Gretsch said:


> My puppy arrived at 8 weeks of age with blood shot eyes, ears infested with debris and sores and while she was still beautiful to me she was very tiny and I had to wonder if maybe she was younger than 8 weeks of age?
> 
> I took her to my vet, immediately, only to discover that she had conjunctivitis in her eyes, horrible yeast infections in both ears and Giardia in her intestines.
> I spent what I consider to be an amount of money that should insure a puppy with not only good lineage, looks and health but also one that would arrive free of infections. I was so saddened to see her in that condition and while I am human and know that nothing in life is perfect and one might expect to find maybe one thing amiss, to have both eyes, ears and intestines compromised seemed over the top.


I would be very upset if I received a puppy in this condition. Very, very upset.

And you know, she was following her vet's advice about the Giardia. So where it may be a little old hat to us and not that big a deal if caught early, I can understand where it would be very upsetting to someone with no experience. The "output" can be explosive to say the least.

Check his state's puppy lemon laws. (I'm assuming the contract called for his state to be the venue in case of a dispute). There is a possibility you may be able to recover some of your puppy vet costs. And personally I would send a letter to the vet that signed the health certificate alone with a copy of your vet records. It may make them to do a little more in depth exam next time.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.


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## Gretsch (Jan 27, 2011)

Betty said:


> I would be very upset if I received a puppy in this condition. Very, very upset.
> 
> And you know, she was following her vet's advice about the Giardia. So where it may be a little old hat to us and not that big a deal if caught early, I can understand where it would be very upsetting to someone with no experience. The "output" can be explosive to say the least.
> 
> ...


Thank you Betty. All very good advice, especially about sending the letter to the breeder's vet. I never thought about that but you are very smart because it not only assures me that the health cert. wasn't forged as someone above stated was possible but it also puts that vet on notice that a pup went thru her clinic that had multiple infections (if in fact the breeder took my pup for the said health cert) and if not then he has to answer to his vet. I like this, very good indeed. I also like your input on the "lemon" law as I didn't think about that one at all. 

And yes, it was very upsetting after the loss of my prior shepherd and waiting a full year without a dog in my life just making sure I was making a good decision and then on that much anticipated day I receive a pup that was loaded with infections - eyes, ears and poopy poops. Just not my vision for how a puppy should arrive. Thanks for your comments.


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