# Puppy biting out of anger?



## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Leo, my 5.5 month old male GSD has basically stopped biting and play biting, BUT he bites when he gets upset or frustrated with me.

For instance, last night I had him on my bed. At bedtime he sleeps in his kennel, so I called for him to come off the bed. He didn't move so I picked him up off the bed (normally he is fine with being picked up) he seemed upset that I had taken him off the bed and bit my hand extremely hard.

What should I have done in this situation? Redirection doesn't seem like the right thing because it definitely wasn't a play bite. I just put him in his kennel, but I was feeling pretty frustrated.

Leo does this type of biting more than I am comfortable with. He will also do it if I grab his collar to bring him inside. Then he tries to bite. For things he doesn't want to do his first reaction is to bite. This doesn't seem like play biting to me, is it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

5.5 months old is a baby. If you are having trouble controlling your dog's behavior at this point, I dunno. 

Have you ever owned a GSD before?
Have you raised puppies?
What breeds?
When did you pick up the puppy?

Believe me that these questions are relevant.

I am not sure whether suggesting NILIF, rehoming, trainer versed in whatever lines of GSD you have, or simple basic household obedience classes is right.

If you have a lot of experience with the breed and are having a problem with a 5.5 month old puppy, then maybe you have one that is off the charts in some areas, a dog that might be much better suited to someone with aspirations that require a dog with plenty of self-assurance, etc.

If you are a newbie at owning a dog, reading up on NILIF, and going to regular classes may be enough to help you and your dog figure it all out. 

Different breeds have different attributes, and having raised a lab or a spaniel or a beagle is not the same as raising working and some herding dogs. Owning a dog that your parents raised with you or that was raised by someone else does not necessarily give you the experience of having raised a puppy. 

So, we really need more info.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Personally I don't think of it as play. It sounds more like trying to use it to get his/her way. ..i.e. bratly behavior. I'm sure someone else will have more detailed ideas about what to do; mine might not be politically correct. *grin* He would go back to wearing a leash of shame.


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

selzer said:


> 5.5 months old is a baby. If you are having trouble controlling your dog's behavior at this point, I dunno.
> 
> Have you ever owned a GSD before?
> Have you raised puppies?
> ...



This is my first GSD, I grew up with them, but obviously growing up with them and raising them is different.
I have raised one dog, a chow chow, but they have extremely different personalities than GSD's.
I try to practice NILIF, but feel like something is missing here because he still doesn't respect me very much. I usually make him sit for anything he wants. To go outside is a sit, come out of kennel sit etc. etc. 
I went through puppy class, which IMO caused more problems than it helped with. We have a private trainer coming, but have only done one session so far.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think pups just go through a stubborn phase and think they own the bed or the couch or what ever toy/bone they found. 

To avoid issues like this you can teach the dog to jump off the bed on command using treats. You could have a blanket there on the ground and instruct him to go there and reward when he does. Make it fun. Over time it click in his head.

You can nudge the dog, moving a little bit at a time. Generally they like the comfort but your foot slowly pushing under him is not comfortable any more. 

You can make it feel uncomfortable by sitting beside it and putting your weight on it until it decides to move too. It is better for him to realize that you are stronger.

You can make a loud noise and clap your hands over the pups head to startle him out of that head space and then move him. 

Basically it is claiming the space and you need to reclaim it. It can take time. But get the dog used to moving for you for a treat and it'll be easier to handle him.

It's like an off. If the dog finds a bone it is hard to take it off him, especially if it growls or crouches over it. It's warning you and you have to make the next move. 

But to avoid that you start to teach the dog/pup an off with lower value item and build it up to releasing high value toys/ treats.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

CaliShepherd said:


> I *try* to practice NILIF...


Can you explain what you mean by "try"? Is it possible that you're not being consistent enough? Ideally, ALL good things come from you, you control the resources - food, play, attention, etc., and he has to work for you to get them. Personally, I'd err on the side of being super strict with NIIF from the beginning, and then back off later, once it's clear that it's not necessary to that extent, rather than starting out slow and becoming firmer if that doesn't seem sufficient. But it's not too late to go back and do it right.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CaliShepherd said:


> Leo, my 5.5 month old male GSD has basically stopped biting and play biting, BUT he bites when he gets upset or frustrated with me.
> 
> For instance, last night I had him on my bed. At bedtime he sleeps in his kennel, so I called for him to come off the bed. He didn't move so I picked him up off the bed (normally he is fine with being picked up) he seemed upset that I had taken him off the bed and bit my hand extremely hard.
> 
> ...


No, he isn't playing. Those types of things are you picking physical fights. The nilif is fine for the structure of it helping you be consistent and avoid picking fights, but I think what you may be doing is the difference that was mentioned on another thread, bribing vs rewarding.

Don't let him up on the bed, ever. Keep a leash on him so you can create obedience without it being a fight. Don't trade things or reward him for simple manners right now.


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Can you explain what you mean by "try"? Is it possible that you're not being consistent enough?


Sure, I ask him to sit before he gets to do anything that I think he wants. So I have him sit before he gets food, before he goes outside, before he gets a toy, before I play with him.

Now that I think of it, I didn't have him sit before going on the bed though...


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Don't trade things or reward him for simple manners right now.


Can you explain this a little more? What should I do when he is acting bratty?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> bribing vs rewarding.


Can you post the thread Steve. Sounds interesting.

To me you use the treats to redirect the dogs mind and only reward when it does what you want.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CaliShepherd said:


> Can you explain this a little more? What should I do when he is acting bratty?


Have you ever corrected him with the leash ?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Can you post the thread Steve. Sounds interesting.
> 
> To me you use the treats to redirect the dogs mind and only reward when it does what you want.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/587466-teaching-engagement.html


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Have you ever corrected him with the leash ?


I actually haven't, I'm not even sure how to do it. I've only used positive training, but I'm starting to have my doubts on its effectiveness. He just wears a plain buckle collar, can you even do corrections with that?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Not very effectively. There's nothing wrong with reward based training, but there are some things I think the dog needs to know that he has to do it. I think what you may have going on, on one hand you're telling him he can do something like get on the bed, then you're telling him to get off, but you don't have the obedience with him that makes it clear to him that he has to listen to you. Its all been created.

I'd step up my obedience, everything is training for a while. Keep him out of those situations where he can ignore or challenge you.

One simple thing you can do to introduce him to getting popped with either a prong or just a choke chain, walk him past things that are mildly interesting, bushes he'd like to sniff, tell him leave it followed by an immediate pop all while you keep casually walking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, living with, growing up with dogs/GSDs is not the same as raising and training one. I have no experience with chows. So, I do not know what the differences might be. 

But shepherds, well, they are a breed that can be hard, can be soft, can be handler-sensitive without being soft, can be shy and not aloof, or aloof and not shy. They are intelligent -- that does not necessarily make them an easy dog to raise or train or live with. They can be all of those things: easy to raise, easy to train, easy to live with. They are expected to be courageous and protective, but if they are protective and assertive in the wrong situation, they are probably nervy and dangerous. 

The lines are different. The individuals are also different. Treating a soft dog the way you would treat a hard dog, or treating a handler-sensitive dog the way you would a hard dog might put you at a disadvantage. Some shepherds do not want to make a mistake to the extent that they shut down completely, and are then dubbed "stubborn." Other shepherds are assertive and can become collar-savvy so that they know they do not NEED to do anything they do not WANT to do depending on the collar -- they get ring-savvy too -- no corrections in the ring, so they realize they can act up in the ring. 

However, that is not most shepherds. In fact, I think the ring-thing is a symptom of over-trining. Dog is bored. Yep, intelligent dogs get bored, and they might use their brains less-desireable directions if you do not give them opportunities to channel their mental energy in more appropriate things.

Shepherds are great dogs. They are beautiful dogs. Everyone wants one and lots of people are breeding them, and the dogs you may have grown up with are likely not the dog that you bought today. There are great dogs out there, don't get me wrong. But, there are also a lot of dogs out there, that are going to have a more difficult time with a novice owner, with no socialization or poor socialization, with little or no training, with too much or too little exercise and stimulation, with the wrong type of training for the temperament of the dog in front of you.

What to do? How does a novice know that they have a soft or handler-sensitive dog, or a stubborn dog, or a hard dog? How do you know that the trainer who claims to be an expert with GSDs, just had two of them in his class a few years back and those owners left and told all their buddies that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. How do you know that his experience is mostly with police dogs, military working dogs, personal protection dogs -- all of whom are selected for specific temperament traits?

And even in a single litter, you have dogs that are middle of the road pups -- wherever the middle of the road is for your type of GSD, and some who tend to be assertive/dominant, or confident, or independent, or hard, and others who tend to be shy, or soft, or handler-sensitive, or lacking in confidence. Energy levels and drive can be anywhere in there.

So, what do new owners do? 

Well, we make a lot of mistakes. That's ok. Usually. Dogs are resilient, and if you give something a good college try and it isn't working for you or the dog, you can stop, regroup, and start something else. You have to be open to being wrong though, and a lot of people talk a good talk in this direction but that's as far as it goes. The dog is stupid, mean, stubborn, protective, nervy, and so on.

We can ask for recommendations for trainers from our vets, our friends, people on line. We have to listed to what they say about the trainer. How experienced are they? Are they experienced with a lot of dogs? Sometimes we walk into class and have to be willing to listen to some things about ourselves that aren't easy to hear. And sometimes we have to accept stuff about our dog that is a hard pill to swallow. And sometimes we have to step between the trainer and our dog and prevent the trainer from continuing doing whatever they are doing. And how do we know?

Gosh, I am sorry, I am really not being all that helpful am I.

Let's look at the dog and what it is doing. A 5.5 month old puppy that objects to being touched or moved off of a piece of furniture is either in serious pain, terribly frightened, or the dog is most likely a little more assertive/confident than your typical pet dog. 

Look up NILIF, and follow it. No more furniture. No toys -- except when you are working with the dog, and then it is for you to give and for you to put up. No treats, except for training, and then make him work for it. With a dog that is assertive and confident to the point of physically trying to get its own way, needs to understand that you hold all of the cards. The dog needs for you to be fair and consistent. Needs for you to provide training and exercise to channel his energy both mentally and physically. Needs for you to provide leadership. 

If the dog is in pain or terribly afraid, not being on the furniture and knowing what to expect from you will be helpful, but these would be far more difficult overall to manage. The dog with a solid temperament, though a bit pushier than we might like, a dog that thinks that he can ignore you or get his own way by using his teeth at this stage, is a little easier to manage, but you have to start NOW. Most youngsters accept the two legged being with the food, as the leader without much trouble. 

There are reasons why they may not. If you are inconsistent, they may not understand you and may lose respect. If you don't follow through with commands, you are teaching the dog to ignore you. If you are terribly lacking in confidence and are not decisive in your commands and follow throughs, then the dog might not be sure whether or not you are going to be able to protect him, and whether or not he should follow your lead.

NILIF should help. Even a fearful dog will improve when the rules are clear and the leader is undoubtably a solid leader. The dog will find confidence in your leadership. 

From the information you have given, I would dog the following:

1. Leadership -- learn and follow NILIF, no dogs on furniture, etc. Maybe down the road. He will need to earn that privilege. 

2. Management -- make sure the dog is properly contained when you cannot interact with him. It makes no sense to shoo a dog off a couch if you will be gone all day, and at that time he has access. 

3. Exercise -- make it a habit, plenty of regular walks, and games -- play that will help him exhaust mind and body.

4. Training -- make it a part of every day. Good training builds confidence between the dog and the handler -- both ways. It will help you build a good bond. Patience, timing, age-appropriate. Don't give commands you cannot enforce immediately, do not repeat commands, do not fail to follow through -- praise when the dog performs the task -- even if you helped him manage it. 

5. Schedule: This could fit under leadership, but puppies tend to thrive when expected things happen in an expected order. If you are having some difficulties, adhering to a regular schedule can be very helpful.

6. Socialization. Socialization does not end at 4 months. It is on going. But, I always put it last, because I believe that dogs who are socialized prior to having some trust in the other end of the leash, will have a more difficult time. So, at this point, during walks and excursions away from familiar ground, keep your distance from things that the pup tends to be wary of. Do not allow him to make the call -- you adjust before he reacts. As your training increases the trust between you and he, you can begin to move closer to things that might be more challenging.


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Selzer thanks for all the tips. I think I need to be more consistent in my NILF training. Now that I'm thinking about it, I do let him get away with too many things.

As for chows, they are very different. My chow chow is extremely lazy (even as a puppy I only saw her run a few times) At 7 year old I'm lucky if I can get her to jog. They are Stubborn, stubborn, stubborn, but extremely loyal very and loving with lots and lots of work. They also are not the most intelligent dogs. So quite the opposite of a GSD, except for the lots of work part ha (that's probably every dog though).

I agree that as a novice owner it's difficult to tell the temperament of my dog. Leo is definitely not in pain, and his actions don't seem fearful at all. He is confident verging on pushy, and he needs a different skillset than the one I had with my chow. I fully acknowledge that my training isn't going so well, which is why all the replies here help a lot!

I also think that I have been bribing him with treats, which is something I need to stop doing. 

As for the trainer thing, this is another area that is difficult. I have had two trainers so far, and it's been challenging to find one that is helpful. My first trainer recommended chasing Leo around like another dog for his exercise. Needless to say Leo jumped on me and bit me as if I were another dog. I didn't try that again.

Like you said it's easy to make a lot of mistakes. Gosh, I have already made so so many. But Leo is still pretty young, so I'm hoping that if I can keep working with him, and changing the things that don't work, we can work through the issues


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Wick did this around 4 months of age, now he lets us do whatever we want whenever we want, and is incredibly easy going in the house and the vet. This I feel was a combination of tactics and also that he grew a strong bond of trust with us as he got older. Some things that worked for us (in addition to nilif) were: always following through on any command, regardless of his reaction, when he did turn back to bite we treated it the same as any other play bite-he was put in time out, we used commands instead of physical actions whenever we could-I think this is very important. We taught off etc by using a treat to lure and once he knew what it meant, we said the command first, then he received the treat, if he didn't listen then we physically moved him, if he nipped he went in timeout. This led to great things because he learned that I would never force him to do something he didn't want because I always gave him the option to do it himself, which meant that he trusted me later when I did have to move him for some reason. By showing him that biting not only didn't work to keep me from doing what I wanted, and in addition took away his freedom he learned that we were in charge and that he got bad things when he didn't listen. I preferred treating his bratiness with time outs/ the same as his play bites because I didn't want to escalate the situation or make him feel it was special or scary when I did it. Wick always in every training aspect has done better with commands than anything forceful. I will add he never was biting hard as you described, it was always a soft mouth, but he was still doing the same thing: trying to tell US no. That is why I think commands worked so well, it was a compromise I don't invade his space but he still had to listen to what I asked.


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Wick, that is also really helpful. Timeouts were really effective with Leo's play biting, so it makes sense that it would help with this as well. I also like the progression that you used.

Great advice, I will be trying this!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

CaliShepherd said:


> Wick, that is also really helpful. Timeouts were really effective with Leo's play biting, so it makes sense that it would help with this as well. I also like the progression that you used.
> 
> Great advice, I will be trying this!



I think a big part of it was just him growing older too, they test limits a lot I think haha. I have noticed in many ways that wick just became more eager to please and responsive as he aged. I consistently trained him so it's hard to tell which led to the other but I think that was a huge part of it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

CaliShepherd said:


> We have a private trainer coming, but have only done one session so far.


Cali - You're getting some great information here. Lots of different methods to try. It's great that you have a private trainer in the picture now. If your trainer seems to be knowledgeable and what they explain to you makes sense be careful that you don't try several new ways to train before consulting your private trainer. They have methods and need you to be onboard with their way of training. Otherwise - it could get very confusing to all involved.

Training to me is like balancing on a slippery ball sometimes. You have to be precise and specific - otherwise you can have a fall (setback) and in my experience so far - that gets tiresome 

You are fortunate to have a private trainer - it's the fastest clearest way to get results


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Run from any trainer that wants you to treat your dog the way another dog would. 

There are things that we can use in training that, by knowing dog behavior, works to get the dog to do what we want -- set them up to succeed, then praise them for doing it, and repeat. For example, the SIT command: by raising the treat (called luring) above the dog's head and back, so that his eyes move upward following the treat, and to continue to follow, the butt naturally moves into the it position. Good Sit! give the treat. This is not bribing. This is teaching a new command. Than movement of the hand becomes the hand signal for SIT. After he is sitting good with the treat, we start phasing the treat out, but giving it every other time, or every third time. Or for the best or quickest sit. 

Keep training sessions short. 
Start with something fun, that he knows and will be successful with.
End with something fun, that he knows and will be successful with.
Keep it light and fun. 

You can clean up your sits later. Now just keep it moving. 

Rally is a great venue to train in because when training the HEEL, novices go out there with the leash and walk the dog around the block. That isn't how we train anything else. We train the stay by moving right in font, and quickly say Good Stay and release, and then when that is good, we move farther, then we stay longer, and we mix it up, and then we add distractions. We do not put a dog on a STAY! and then walk twenty feet away, wait five minutes, and then start tying our shoes. We would have no success at all.

But we put a lead on our dogs and start a walk and expect the dog to heel all the way around the block on the first outing. Crazy. We ALL do that. Or we have. 

Rally is different. You walk about 4 feet and then you Sit. Walk another 3 or 4 feet and make a right turn, or a left turn, or a serpentine around cones. We down the dog this time. Next time we will Sit, Down, and walk around the dog. This time we serpentine around the cones to the end and move on, next time we might go down and back up again, or we will spiral to the left or right.

It is like doodling. It trains the dog to watch us for the changes we are going to make, and the whole course takes about 2 minutes. Then we are done. At the end of the year, yes, we want a dog who will walk on a loose leash for a pleasant stroll down a bike path or around the block, but Rome wasn't conquered in a day. And yes, you can put a prong collar on a dog and given him a pop and get him to stop pulling on the lead (when the collar is on). You can probably get all the way around that block with the prong and maybe on the first outing. And it won't kill the dog or ruin its spirit. I rather like to teach it the other way though. 

Good luck. I think your instincts are good. Don't give up on classes though. I use them, not because I need help to teach the basics, but I can't train around the distraction of other leashed dogs and owners except in class. And having a dog that doesn't act like a maniac around other dogs or people is in my overall plans for my dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The best advice I got on here when my adolescent dog was being a butthead was to ignore him, and be a benevolent dictator.
Now that he is mature, I can lavish lots of love and attention on him but he does know he needs to listen and be respectful. Still tries to get away with stuff-- but I like that. I wouldn't like a less spirited dog 

Also, if you post your location maybe someone can recommend a good trainer. The one you had sounds like an idiot.

Take away all toys if he has free access to them. All good things need to come from you.
Also, get the dog off the furniture. He thinks he owns it. Needs to learn ASAP that he does not own anything.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

If you are having issues with biting/bratty behaviour I would definitely not allow your dog on the bed - this is a position of power for a dog, dont let him on the couch, bed, or anywhere high up. Back to basics training! Keep him leashed and tethered to you at all times when free in the house for a few days, otherwise in the crate if he cant be supervised! When my pups nipped I would hold their mouth closed, look directly in their eyes and give them a low "no!" Do not release until you have attention and do not allow him to squirm away. He is also teething now likely, so LOTS of chew toys. Nipping and biting people should be finished by this age.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

annabirdie said:


> If you are having issues with biting/bratty behaviour I would definitely not allow your dog on the bed - this is a position of power for a dog, dont let him on the couch, bed, or anywhere high up.


Everyone's methods are different. The bed and couch are certainly coveted. This is exactly how I got some of my pup's best house training done. What was lacking for me was the ability to gain focus because of distractions, but not in this situation. 

Over the years, I seldom let any of my GSD's on the bed or couch. When I do - it is a special privilege maybe twice a week and then it's for bonding. Strange as it may sound - my best focus training came over bed/couch privileges. No where else did I have such lack of distraction and such focus. This is the best place for the novice IMHO to exert an absolute command that the pup gets - this is how I taught 2 commands (over the bed or couch) "Down" and "Mine". I hesitate to refer to Caesar but it is what it is - you are claiming. 

I know now, it is a fallacy that "once you allow a pup up the training is out the door". THIS is where you face willful and stubborn (at it's finest) I just now, told mine (15 mo teenager) she should go to bed - (she's tired - long day), she started heading into the bedroom and I told her stay down - she circled her own bed in there once and came back out and layed down in the living room. That's fine. That choice is hers. 

Now, she just whined at me twice - she wants on that bed. I told her to go to bed but stay down. She did - will be asleep in about 4 minutes.

Sometimes one of the hardest training challenges - if you have the benefit of quiet and focus can be one of the best training sessions. It spreads to other things.


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## CaliShepherd (Jun 24, 2015)

Thank you so much everyone that has contributed to this thread! I now feel like I have the tools to address this problem and some others. 

Also, I admit I was a little afraid of being shamed for being a noobie first time GSD owner, but thanks for not making me feel bad.

All you GSD owners have my respect! These puppies can be a challenge.


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