# 9 mo old is aggressive with our 5 year old smaller dog?? HELP



## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi all,

I have a 9 month old GSD named Leisel and thus far has been a wonderful animal. She is great with my kids and people...however we have a problem on our hands with aggression. 

We have an 11 year old female Collie-mix dog and a 5 year old Beagle mix dog. My GSD has been "put in her place" early on with the older dog, but on about 5 occasions has attacked the male smaller dog. Last night was the worst...we were on our walk, as we normally are, and they were unleashed playing, and Leisel attacked the small male. I had to pry her off of him....I really think she could have killed him had I not intervened and needless to say, it was very upsetting and I'm now very uncomfortable with them around each other.

The small male dog is very submissive and we think has a history of some abuse. Is Leisel just picking up on this and attacking him? There was no food involved. Could this be a hormonal thing? She is not fixed yet and like I said is a little over 9 months. I'm pretty distraught, because if this doesn't get resolved, either the male or Leisel will have to be rehomed. 

I appreciate any and all feedback. 

Tracy


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Do not put them together any longer under any circumstances. Get a trainer. I have a similar issue with 2 of mine, I am taking no chances. The GSD now wears a basket muzzle and training is now double what it was. The two dogs in question in my house will never have contact with each other again. Good luck, I know how scary it can be.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks for the response. It is very scary. I was shocked because these 2 have gotten along great up until a few weeks ago. The first few times it happened, there was food involved...so I figured that was a big no-no and from then on feed them separately with one outside and one inside. I am wondering if this is even fixable.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK if the attacks have occured in the field also?? That's preety bad, usually "this" is an at home thing??

If you want to farm this out?? Contact Jeff Gellman or Sean O'sean they can recommend a trainer local to you. Fixing "Fighting and Biting" "family pets" is what they do!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

What you have "stumbled" into is this:
Leerburg | Introducing a New Dog into a Home with Other Dogs

By and large "most" of the advice will be Crate and Rotate:
That looks like this:
Pit Bull Rescue Central

Or the rehome one of the dogs thing. If those are good enough ... there you go. 
If "you" want to know what I've learned from those guys, and based on my share of mistakes with "this" situitions as a "NON PRO" I'll be happy to explain what I would do now!

But got a rare "Boxer" with aggression situiton on "BoxerForum" so gotta go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

conflict and aggression between dogs living in one household can be very violent.

often aggression is provoked by the newest , youngest member.

you did have a stable environment with two compatible dogs with maturity . The compatibility was in part due to these two breeds (mixes) having
low aggression as part of their genetic make-up.

the collie mix had confidence that comes with maturity and when the beagle mix joined the household it didn't take much communication from him/her to establish order . Just as the collie mix did with the young GSD . One sharp decisive 'oh-no-you-don't-" snap, drawing of the lines not to be crossed . 
The beagle mix (Scott and Fuller) having breed characteristics necessary to work in large packs without aggression -- low aggressive - would not have had the nature to assert itself. 
This , with the typical rough play of a young GSD would add to the interest of the GSD in constantly provoking the older beagle mix - until the rough play has no bounds and becomes predatory aggression. 
These factors along with the extra attention (novelty) that the pup would have received have changed a relatively stable household into a tinder box .

The GSD needs rules and training and limitations set 
asap . The beagle mix should not receive consoling from you. Both dogs need to know that you are in charge .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> conflict and aggression between dogs living in one household can be very violent.
> 
> often aggression is provoked by the newest , youngest member.
> 
> ...


I'll only add ...yep.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

carmspack said:


> conflict and aggression between dogs living in one household can be very violent.
> 
> often aggression is provoked by the newest , youngest member.
> 
> ...


Very well said and explained....it does make great sense when you put it that way. Do you have any suggestions on how to get this situation under control? Thanks.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I wouldn't have added a GSD to the household as the breed is too different by nature than the elder residents.

cage rotation is not enough -- good for the acute needs response but not a solution to a possibly chronic , potentially volatile , situation.

harmony needs to be imposed , and that has to come right down from you, not having the dogs settle it amongst themselves. 

the elder residents need to be respected . The young GSD was parachuted into their stable environment . 
The GSD has to fit into the household not the other way around.
This is a way to assert yourself . 

my best recommendation would be to take the youngster OUT of the house every single day to learn, to use up energy productively under guidance which means action oriented OBEDIENCE with defined goals and expected results (not a run in the park) . 

in the house NO , ZERO, horseplay. Manners and rules for behaviour . 
Dogs can't just malinger around getting in to trouble.

GSD needs to learn to leave the beagle-mix alone . Period. Don't praise the GSD when he does so. This is a basic , expected , behaviour . Neutralize the fun. 
If the GSD gets pushy and provokes the beagle-mix and then you break it up and reward the GSD for "leaving" , then you set up a chain which contributes the GSD into provoking the beagle to get the reward (attention or food).

There will be no value , not from you, not from the elder canine residents -- so no fun -- behaviour extinquishes . BUT I would not have them alone and unsupervised . GSD gets crated when you are away from the house . The other dogs get to enjoy the life that they have had prior to the GSD coming on scene. And the crate is not used in a punitive way , constructive confinement - the neutral space -- and not in view or with access by the other dogs.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks Carmen for the valuable feedback.

I discussed this prior to purchase with the breeder about what dogs were already in the household...there was no warning from her that it would be a problem. Had I known this would be an issue, would probably have reconsidered, but now it's because I've put almost a year into an animal I love, but am seeing behavior that cannot go unaddressed.

I will try to do the things you suggested. What about when in the moment if she attacks him? Thus far I have pulled her off and smacked her nose while reprimanding her. 

I lean more toward the thinking that the beagle mix is so subservient to her that it is a prey instinct and she somehow wants to attack him. He doesn't do anything to provoke her though, which is why I'm confused by her behavior. Thanks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nieradzik said:


> Thanks Carmen for the valuable feedback.
> 
> I discussed this prior to purchase with the breeder about what dogs were already in the household...there was no warning from her that it would be a problem. Had I known this would be an issue, would probably have reconsidered, but now it's because I've put almost a year into an animal I love, but am seeing behavior that cannot go unaddressed.
> 
> ...


I think that it amps them up when you pull at them or at least that is what I felt happened. Right now I watch every move he makes and tell him to leave it before he does anything. I want no interaction at all, that is my goal. With mine I think it's the movement of the greyhound/husky, which seems like a prey drive thing, but I'm not so sure. I signed my GSD up for nose work classes today, I'm looking at agility too. We are going to burn off some of that negative energy and give him a job to do.

The basket muzzle is helping me feel more secure with them being together and gives me more of an edge on them being together safely. The second dog in question has still not calmed down to a level where I trust him not to react, I'm hoping that happens within the next week.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Nieradzik said:


> I will try to do the things you suggested. What about when in the moment if she attacks him? Thus far I have pulled her off and smacked her nose while reprimanding her.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> You just never put them together anymore. Regarding not provoking: signs are very subtle and you need a keen, experienced eye to see who instigates trouble.
> ...


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

There is much information out here that is contradictory, which is confusing for some of us less experienced GSD owners who are trying to do the best for our dogs. This is not a criticism, simply an observation. My two favorite breeds, which I intend to make a major part of my life in retirement, 24/7, happen to be a toy breed and a large breed (a GSD, of course!). When deciding whether to get the toy breed first, then bring in a GSD pup about a year later, or visa versa, I have been advised to get the toy breed first. This seems to make sense. But this OP had problems even though he brought a pup into a home where smaller dogs were already established.I would think this scenario should have worked out better than bringing in a little breed pup into a home with a large GSD.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Personally would take GSD pup first, raise and train it for two years and only add the toy dog once the GSD is rock solid on obedience and you on your leadership. That way you don't have to control a super strong, growing up GSD and risk killing the toy dog if that dog tries to assert himself to a bratty pup that is way stronger than the toy dog. Another benefit is that you can take the GSD to classes where there are toy dogs so he will familiar with them before you add a toy (dog).


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Thanks for your response. I agree, if I have to muzzle, I will have to reconsider one of the dogs. Luckily the Collie is elderly, stays to herself but I think did a good job putting the GSD in her place at a young age. The GSD won't go near the Collie and if she does, it's in a very subservient way. It's the middle dog that is the problem now. I'm thinking we will have to rehome him because constantly keeping them separated is not really an option for me.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> Personally would take GSD pup first, raise and train it for two years and only add the toy dog once the GSD is rock solid on obedience and you on your leadership. That way you don't have to control a super strong, growing up GSD and risk killing the toy dog if that dog tries to assert himself to a bratty pup that is way stronger than the toy dog. Another benefit is that you can take the GSD to classes where there are toy dogs so he will familiar with them before you add a toy (dog).


You certainly bring up some more food for thought!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> There is much information out here that is contradictory, which is confusing for some of us less experienced GSD owners who are trying to do the best for our dogs. This is not a criticism, simply an observation.


 Very astute observation! 

Part of the "problem" is that "if" a GSD develops serious issues most people struggling with them start to look for "PO" only solutions, because that is all they know of??

And by and large that won't work and those trainers or methods can't help! And then some swing the other way with yank and crank solutions and with the wrong dog .. that approach can be problematic??  

The dog does need the things Camspeck laid out. I get it and understand but I'm not sure the OP understands what that looks like.

The op actually stumbled onto a part of the solution deliver an aversive and teach the dog to "make better choices" it has just thus far been effective?? 

I point people to "balanced trainers that work with fighting biting dogs al the time! And I get crap for it from "some!" Ok fine then, I'm waiting for one of the "PO" only advocates to offer "their" ideas of solutions for this and so far "crickets??" 



maxtmill said:


> My two favorite breeds, which I intend to make a major part of my life in retirement, 24/7, happen to be a toy breed and a large breed (a GSD, of course!). When deciding whether to get the toy breed first, then bring in a GSD pup about a year later, or visa versa, I have been advised to get the toy breed first. This seems to make sense. But this OP had problems even though he brought a pup into a home where smaller dogs were already established.I would think this scenario should have worked out better than bringing in a little breed pup into a home with a large GSD.


 It should have but Cam pointed out part of the problem, and maybe all of it in this case??

But I would also add this (Breed specific) scroll down to Rank Drive:
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )

Lack of structure, Lack of time "bonding" with dog number three (OS WL GSD) (Walk your dog) led me into this same "issue" except in my case the chosen was not a "Beagle" it was 85 lbs of Am Band Dawg!

I was never able to fix my "problems" Gunther passed due to unrelated issues. 

But in wanting to understand what went wrong?? I kept digging and found these guys.


Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training
Los Angeles Dog Trainer - Dog Aggression Training - Dog Behavior Modification
Home

The answers and solutions are all there! I leverage my "experience" with what I learned from these guys. But as I was so rudely told by someone in another thread and by the way, (I don't see them here?)

I don't know crap! So if they are so good at actully "helping" others?? Where are they??


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Not quite sure I understand all of what you said there Chip but I do understand what Cam said. It makes good sense. I can't go back and change the past with bringing in the GSD, so the situation is what it is now and I have to figure out a solution. 

I have put in a call to a dog behaviorist to see if we can rectify this before resorting to rehoming one of the dogs. I appreciate the feedback on this thread, albeit it seems more of a "why" she is acting this way instead of "how" I can go about correcting it. It's been an eye-opener and I will definitely be putting in a lot more work on trying to correct this behavior in the GSD, as she is a very loving dog and I have bonded with her and don't want to see her go.

Thanks again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If this is what you are thinking about 
"It's the middle dog that is the problem now. I'm thinking we will have to rehome him because constantly keeping them separated is not really an option for me"

then I would have to say that this is wrong .

The middle dog is NOT the problem. There was peace and harmony between the two elder dogs , the beagle X and the collie X.

It IS the young GSD which is the problem.

If re-homing is to be done it should be the young GSD. 

The beagle X has had his comfort and familiarity of this home , this routine, this family and this other canine . 

It is NOT his fault that his genetics prevent him from being assertive and putting the obnoxious GSD into place. Beagles are genetically designed , as are many hunting dogs (hounds) to run in packs .

If you had come to me for a dog I would have told you out of respect for the ancient dog to wait until he has had a natural passing (not rushed for convenience) .
I would have told you that the breeds were not exactly compatible . Just as I did with someone asking about a pup to join a household with a newly acquired sheltie . Not a good life for the sheltie ! 

This is not to say that a small dog and a GSD can't get along with a smaller breed. It isn't the size it's the heart of the dog.

Just by your quickness in sending the beagle X to re-home makes me think that the isn't a lot of loyalty to him (not coming out right) --- That when the GSD came into the home , she / he got a lot of attention, novelty , and puppy cutes --- spoiled to the nth. 

Now you have to go back and adjust things . Keep the GSD as if he lives in a different home. Keep them away from each other . Obedience train . 
There are no tricks which will dampen his predatory provocative behaviour . 


One comes to mind immediately. Linda Shaw's gsd Kato , nearing his 13th year had a little punk-dog introduced into the home , a little less than a year after his gsd "brother" passed on to his reward. The punk-dog was a female schipperke - who had all the chutzpah and energy -- of a GSD , more equals than not . 
That is how you match them.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

carmspack said:


> If this is what you are thinking about
> "It's the middle dog that is the problem now. I'm thinking we will have to rehome him because constantly keeping them separated is not really an option for me"
> 
> then I would have to say that this is wrong .
> ...


OP, please take this advice serious. I think this is right on! The chances for your Beagle to find (he is not the one looking for a new home, btw) are not all that great.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nieradzik said:


> Not quite sure I understand all of what you said there Chip


Maxtmill asked a question that I felt needed an answer a slight tangent, but it was a good question.



Nieradzik said:


> but I do understand what Cam said. It makes good sense.


Yes ... you "understand but what does it look like?? 



Nieradzik said:


> I can't go back and change the past with bringing in the GSD, so the situation is what it is now and I have to figure out a solution.


 Well ... that is not "exactly" true.

Starting over would look like this first link here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html




Nieradzik said:


> I have put in a call to a dog behaviorist to see if we can rectify this before resorting to rehoming one of the dogs.


Yeah ... good luck with that!

A tip if you go that route ... ask them if they work with fighting biting dogs and solve there problems?? If they say yes ask for a list of former clients and ask if you can speak with them. Most likely they won't be shills as "usually" no one ever bothers to ask. 




Nieradzik said:


> I appreciate the feedback on this thread, albeit it seems more of a "why" she is acting this way instead of "how" I can go about correcting it.


Yep, I've noticed the same thing myself.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

OP, call a trainer or behaviorist to see if the situation can be resolved.

If it can't, the GSD is the one that should be rehomed. That is the dog that is causing the problems, not the Beagle. I'm honestly not even sure why you would even consider rehoming the Beagle. You've had that dog the longest right?

I understand that you may have attachment to the GSD, but rehoming another dog because of the GSD's inability to "play nice" is not at all fair.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Since I'm the "OP", I feel I need to elaborate to help everyone understand the situation a little better. 

The middle dog has consistently had some issues since we got him. We don't know for sure what he is...his appearance is that of a Beagle mixed with a Greyhound?? Maybe...I don't know. But we have tried rehoming him several times in the past with no luck, and as a result, he has stayed here in our house. But...he does have some known issues. He is snappy with kids (not mine, but everyone else's), and overall has a very submissive, timid demeanor. There are other things that aren't worth getting in to here...but you get the idea. 

I felt that I did due diligence when I explained our situation to the breeder before getting the GSD...that because he was a male and the GSD is a female, and that they were starting out together from her as a puppy that all would be well. Clearly that has shown to not be the case. 

I did contact a behaviorist who basically said "pick one", because the likelihood of it working out was slim, or at the very least would require years of constant work with no guarantees. 

I wish some on here were not so quick to judge. I see it frequently on threads. We are all here because we have a love of GSDs, and I'd like to think all animals. This is not an easy situation, as I want to do the right thing for not just both dogs, but also my family. I came here for some insight as to whether others have experienced this, and what, if anything, could be done. Thanks.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You got really good advice from people who know their stuff. 
Maybe you expected too much support when you decided to re-home the Beagle. And now suddenly he is the bad dog,(to justify it for yourself or to convince us?) Even when you re-home the Beagle, the next one in line maybe your older girl as your GSD is having success with the bullying. Your older dog may very well be the next to take on for her.
I see it often in aggression cases: I try help people and realize that all they want to hear is that everything will be just fine and that they are doing a good job of it. But that was not the reason you asked for help. Good luck and wisdom in your decision.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Oddly enough the issue I'm having is with GSD verdis a greyhound mix. I think it's the movement that drives the GSDs nuts. The GSDs(none of them) like this fog, they merely put up with him. I seriously can't figure it out and keep going back to the way he moves.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

WD, no...I didn't really expect anything, and I have not rehomed the Beagle. I'm trying to do my research and get all my options and do what's best for all dogs, like I said. 

He isn't "suddenly" the bad dog, he isn't a bad dog...again, judging. I explained further about his temperament to give a clearer picture of the situation and why I suggested rehoming him, not to "justify it for myself or convince" you. I acknowledge that this is a product of the GSD's behavior. Once again, I came here looking for HOW to work with this situation, if at all. 

I'm sure your intent is to help, however some of your comments come across as plain critical. When you don't even know someone or their situation, perhaps its better to err on the side of caution and give someone the benefit of the doubt before being so quick to judge.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Oddly enough the issue I'm having is with GSD verdis a greyhound mix. I think it's the movement that drives the GSDs nuts. The GSDs(none of them) like this fog, they merely put up with him. I seriously can't figure it out and keep going back to the way he moves.


This is interesting. THAT was the entire reason of posting here...to see if anyone had advice on a way, if possible, to get the GSD to "tolerate" him so rehoming wasn't an option. Thanks for your insight...I do believe his erratic movements have something to do with this equation.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nieradzik said:


> This is interesting. THAT was the entire reason of posting here...to see if anyone had advice on a way, if possible, to get the GSD to "tolerate" him so rehoming wasn't an option. Thanks for your insight...I do believe his erratic movements have something to do with this equation.


I wish I had the answer. The two older GSDs will attempt to bother him but simple voice control works with them. The youngest GSD is more strong willed. The greyhound mix doesn't help me out, because if I put him outside and seperate them he jumps the fence and gets in there with them. You would think he would stay away but no that isn't happening.....


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

What you see as judging, I see as opinions. I PM'd you a few days ago, but I'll just post here for everyone else. I also have a 3 year old male hound mix and 17 month old female GSD. No problems, thus far, in them getting along.

My hound mix also has issues. I don't think it was caused by any kind of mistreatment. I got him from the pound when he was 12 weeks old. Even that young, he had terrible resource guarding issues. He is a very snarky dog. I think he is basically a weak nerved, neurotic mess. But, he is my weak nerved neurotic mess. I worked my butt off on desensitizing him. I respect his thresholds and am able to keep the snarkiness at a minimum.

My shepherd is absolutely the sweetest dog in the world. She is beautiful and doesn't have a mean bone in her body. It would kill me to give up either of my dogs, but if I had to, it would have to be my shepherd. Aside from - Boh was here first and is a real 'Mama's boy' - who is going to be easiest to rehome? Looking for a home for my sweet, no issue GSD, or my snarky, lots of issues hound? 

So this is purely my opinion. The hound stays.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> What you see as judging, I see as opinions. I PM'd you a few days ago, but I'll just post here for everyone else. I also have a 3 year old male hound mix and 17 month old female GSD. No problems, thus far, in them getting along.
> 
> My hound mix also has issues. I don't think it was caused by any kind of mistreatment. I got him from the pound when he was 12 weeks old. Even that young, he had terrible resource guarding issues. He is a very snarky dog. I think he is basically a weak nerved, neurotic mess. But, he is my weak nerved neurotic mess. I worked my butt off on desensitizing him. I respect his thresholds and am able to keep the snarkiness at a minimum.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your feedback and your comments, especially since you have the same types of dogs. I guess when you are the OP, some things do come across as judgments or assumptions, which when you are knee deep in a stressful situation don't really help matters. This is my opinion. 

I did see your PM this morning, thanks for that. I would gladly have responded but I don't have enough posts to reply yet. :shocked:

In any event, I came to the conclusion this morning that thus far I have only gathered opinions of people (which I do appreciate!), but no professional has actually observed or been around my dogs. I'm going to start there and have made an appt with the behaviorist to come out and have a consultation in our home so she can meet the dogs and then give an opinion based on observation rather than just relaying the story. I feel that is the best route to take at this point and is in the best interest of everyone. So we will see how it goes. 

Thank you again for you message-- I did appreciate it.  Take care.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Nieradzik said:


> I appreciate your feedback and your comments, especially since you have the same types of dogs. I guess when you are the OP, some things do come across as judgments or assumptions, which when you are knee deep in a stressful situation don't really help matters. This is my opinion.
> 
> I did see your PM this morning, thanks for that. I would gladly have responded but I don't have enough posts to reply yet. :shocked:
> 
> ...


It is ALWAYS the best thing to have a professional meet and evaluate your dogs. Nothing else can replace that. I wish you the very best of luck. Please keep us posted on how it goes. Or, PM, when you get have enough posts. LOL!


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> It is ALWAYS the best thing to have a professional meet and evaluate your dogs. Nothing else can replace that. I wish you the very best of luck. Please keep us posted on how it goes. Or, PM, when you get have enough posts. LOL!


Haha!! Will do. Thank you again.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

*Just my 2c*

Depending on the actual credentials of the behaviorist, they may be pure positive in philosophy. Still, a behaviorist will have a lot to offer that is very valuable (unless it is someone claiming to be a behaviorist who is not really, tere are plenty out there, even famous people on TV)

Anyway, my point is...it is my belief that if this was a true attack with injuries, pure positive may not solve your problem. My home consists of a rescue GSD cross who is the most predatory dog to ever live, a high drive working line female with no bite inhibition when she loses her temper, a senile and socially inappropriate toy breed, and a 7 month old GSD pup. There have been problems, none in recent years, due to a combination of dedicated management, behavior mod, and some serious discipline reinforced with remote collar training. I hope there is never another issue, I *think* I have training and a system that works, things like

-the little dog never unsupervised with the GSDs
-little dog confined before I ever begin preparing their meals until long after bowls are picked up
-zero tolerance of bullying, or even interest in the little dog from the GSDs
-lots of managenent to prevent little dog comitting suicide by german shepherd, and prevent little dog from her habits of using sleeping GSDs as a step stool ect. It is a huge job
-GSDs exercised properly mentally and physically every day, no frustration to take out on little dog

I would never suggest anyone attempt a blended k9 family like mine. I don't disagree that rehoming the GSD could be a solution. I would also just suggest that if you have a huge amount of time and dedication and willingness, it is possibly for very unlikely housemates to live in peace for years even when there was a initial attack. I do think the GSD may require more firm training than a pure positive trainer, and if you did decide to go that route you may need tons of professional guidance which won't be cheap.

Also re:remote collar, I don't recommend anyone use one without supervision of a qualified trainer. But those are my thoughts on it. Best of luck to you


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the problem isn't that the GSD tolerates the smaller dog (the GSD to "tolerate" him so rehoming wasn't an option) , the GSD is not under control and is exercising predatory aggression , which he provokes.

I doubt the idea of the greyhound cross . What is the logical likelihood of that . Not many greyhounds roaming around . However many hound type animals do have the characteristic deep chest , short coat and exaggerated tuck. 
So much for erratic movement which is expected from children, cats, dogs. 

The solution has been said many times -- you have to train the GSD -- you have to separate them .

Blow the GSDs energy out by doing obedience as a part of active exercise. Directionals , send outs, recalls , stays , heeling with focus (which does not mean sport type ) but attentive , which you will keep the dog on because you are going to be unpredictable. No boring straight lines .

I rarely recommend behaviourists having met up with some that have not even trained a single dog .

Join a training club or attend AKC training classes and prepare for a CD and then advance .

So how is the GSD out on a walk with OTHER dogs?

Looking back to your original post you said

" but on about 5 occasions has attacked the male smaller dog. Last night was the worst...we were on our walk, as we normally are, and they were unleashed playing, and Leisel attacked the small male. I had to pry her off of him....I really think she could have killed him had I not intervened "

to let an attack happen 5 times is lax on your part . 
What did you expect . Each time the GSD did this his predatory aggression got rewarded.
Not fair to the beagley dog. 

Do not walk them together. 
They are so poorly matched in age and temperament.

The GSD needs focused one on one management . She is in the prime stage for needing crisp , dependable obedience to you.

Just lucky it wasn't action on a stranger dog and don't think that won't happen. The GSD has been conditioned .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

*Ps*

When I say more firm trainer, I mean a truly balanced trainer, not a yank n cranker.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Carmspack made a good point which other ppl have touched on- don't give the GSD another chance to attack the other dog. It may be a hassle and time consuming and lots of other things....but do not allow these dogs access to each other


If it feels like too much to make sure they don't get that chance...then rehoming asap someone will be necessary. No judgement here one way or the other....not everybody is a dog professional and identifies the immediate steps needed to prevent another attack and so on.

Was the littler dog injured, btw?


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Carmspack made a good point which other ppl have touched on- don't give the GSD another chance to attack the other dog. It may be a hassle and time consuming and lots of other things....but do not allow these dogs access to each other
> 
> 
> If it feels like too much to make sure they don't get that chance...then rehoming asap someone will be necessary. No judgement here one way or the other....not everybody is a dog professional and identifies the immediate steps needed to prevent another attack and so on.
> ...


Thanks for your response. There is good information here. I have not let the GSD and the other dog near each other since the incident on Tuesday night. It's been difficult to keep them separated, but has to be done. 
To answer your question...no, the little dog was not injured. There were no bite marks or broken skin anywhere...he was shaken up (as was I!). Thankfully no injuries though.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Depending on the actual credentials of the behaviorist, they may be pure positive in philosophy. Still, a behaviorist will have a lot to offer that is very valuable (unless it is someone claiming to be a behaviorist who is not really, tere are plenty out there, even famous people on TV)
> 
> Anyway, my point is...it is my belief that if this was a true attack with injuries, pure positive may not solve your problem. My home consists of a rescue GSD cross who is the most predatory dog to ever live, a high drive working line female with no bite inhibition when she loses her temper, a senile and socially inappropriate toy breed, and a 7 month old GSD pup. There have been problems, none in recent years, due to a combination of dedicated management, behavior mod, and some serious discipline reinforced with remote collar training. I hope there is never another issue, I *think* I have training and a system that works, things like
> 
> ...


Wow, that is a LOT of work you've put in to your pets. Thanks for sharing! I don't know if anything will come of having a professional come out...but it's worth trying. Especially after reading your post, perhaps there is a chance we can work through this. Thanks.


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## Nieradzik (Aug 26, 2015)

carmspack said:


> the problem isn't that the GSD tolerates the smaller dog (the GSD to "tolerate" him so rehoming wasn't an option) , the GSD is not under control and is exercising predatory aggression , which he provokes.
> 
> I doubt the idea of the greyhound cross . What is the logical likelihood of that . Not many greyhounds roaming around . However many hound type animals do have the characteristic deep chest , short coat and exaggerated tuck.
> So much for erratic movement which is expected from children, cats, dogs.
> ...


Carmen, thanks for your response. Let me address a few things you mentioned. 

As for the Beagle breed...I don't know what he is. We got him from the pound and was told he was a Catahoula but is absolutely not that...like I said, the best way I can describe him is skinny, faster than heck and having a Beagle-like face. Hyper and like you said erratic at times. For months it was great between him and the GSD because they would play for hours on end. Seemed like a great fit, initially. 

What you said about it being lax on my part...NO, she was NEVER rewarded. Initially it was always when there was a bone nearby or food, so I figured they were fighting over food (as many dogs, regardless of breed types, do). From there I separated their feedings and then there were no incidents up until this week, where it happened on a walk. All 3 have always walked together just fine; our elderly dog does her thing and the beagle and the GSD would run and play. So to answer your question about "what did I expect", well I would not anticipated anything happening on walks when there was no prior incidences for the past 9 months on walks. 

You say the GSD has been conditioned...how so? She was never rewarded when she demonstrated aggression; just the opposite. 

I took her to training about 3 months ago for a 5 week program. Perhaps she was too young at that point. I know that more training is required and plan on getting her in ASAP. 

Thanks for your input.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is a lot of work having multiple dogs with different needs , that is for sure !

"What you said about it being lax on my part...NO, she was NEVER rewarded"

What I meant and said was "to let an attack happen 5 times is lax on your part" --- you weren't observant to catch the buildup of tensions . To have to " pry her off of him....I really think she could have killed him had I not intervened " is a very serious level .

"You say the GSD has been conditioned...how so? She was never rewarded when she demonstrated aggression; just the opposite"

You don't have to reward them . The reward comes from the inner satisfaction of the dog . 
You never have to reward a dog for chasing a squirrel. It is so satisfying to the dog , catch the critter or not .

Hope that is a good example for you to understand the dynamics. 

So here is how things came to be .
"For months it was great between him and the GSD because they would play for hours on end. Seemed like a great fit, initially"

pretty easy to have the pup get its exercise by chasing the beagley . Man is chasing ever exciting.
Had this been a breed closer in temperament , and/or stronger in self confidence , there would have been a line in the sand when the chasee would have asserted himself and taught the young snot some manners , some inhibitions . 
Instead the GSD did not get this so skies the limit and the prey drive is built . 
You had a four legged flirt pole.

GSD gets bigger and outpowers the smaller dog.

Not fun anymore. At least not fun for the smaller dog. 

The prey becomes more "real" and the beagle turns into a bait dog .

Present this line of thinking to who ever you are going to hire.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't understand when puppy play switches to predator/prey why people don't see it? The "prey" dog makes it pretty obvious they're in trouble and need intervention.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nieradzik said:


> I did contact a behaviorist who basically said "pick one," because the likelihood of it working out was slim, or at the very least would require years of constant work with no guarantees.


LOL, sorry not laughing at you. Just stunned that the "Behaviourist" was even more useless than even I envisioned!

You've seen "exactly" why when I had problems with my lone dog. I chose "not" to go to an open forum. I was looking for "solutions" not a freaking debate! So I gave my "critics" a chance and have "NOTHING" from them as solutions?? 

Sorry for making you a "Guinea Pig" to make a point ...my bad. :blush:

So that being said here we go. When I had my problem it was clear to me that "PO" only solutions were not an option!

So I looked for trainers that worked with dogs with as tend to put it "serious freaking issues!"

And I found Leerburgh:
Leerburg | Article Categories

And for my dog's H/A issue this in particular:
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

Keep people out of his face good enough and away we went ... worked out fine!

A lot there ...but not quite enough so I kept looking and "eventually" ran across these guys!

Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training
Los Angeles Dog Trainer - Dog Aggression Training - Dog Behavior Modification

Those guys work with dogs like yours day in and day out and they "show their work!" And they are available to anyone, that has questions, on Facebook. You may receive an answer there directly. And they also do weekly Q&A sessions. At least twice a week in the case of Jeff and Q&A Saturdays in the case of Sean.

Or if you download the "Periscope App" to your Smartphone you can ask questions directly as they do take questions live on that platform. I haven't figured out how to get online with myself but I don't tend to ask a lot of questions. I just absorb "useful" information and pass it on, people are free to do with it as they see fit. 

So moving on "structure and rules of behaviour" show them what you want. 
It sounds like "now" you have two dogs with "issues" not just the one. So twice the workload for you, the guy with the lack of confidence "Sit on the Dog" he can watch the other one while that one is in Place then do a swap.  

You are going to need to make some changes and those start with Crate Training the "problem dogs." 

See here, there are three good clips in there on Crate training dogs:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7563625-post10.html

Next is the "Place Command" that is the "basic" building block of aggressive dog rehab! A dog learns to "cope" with distractions and you can "correct" a dog for breaking "Place" when properly taught. 

These guys need to be taught to behave calmly in each others presence first before you can make progress beyond that. It's going to be in another link but that and "Sit on the Dog" a technique that will be "extremely" valuable to the "Beagle" mix. Those can be found here:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

That is what training "calmness" into a dog looks like, no need to reinvent the wheel. 
(That last bit is not directed at you.)

Moving on in the house it needs to be locked down time! "No Free Roaming in the house!" If the dogs are indoors they should be in "Place" or in their "Crates." 

All five fights I had to break up are because I did not "know" or "understand" how important that was! 

And if you are sure who the instigator is (and I'll add if there is GSD involvement, it's usually pretty clear who the problem is!) Then keep a Drag Leash on that dog. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture. It's for use in the house to help control situations. And so you don't have to lay hands on the dog.

If you "strictly" enforce the no free roaming in the house concept ... you'll not have to live with the "ticking time bomb" sensation! 

In the yard if the dogs are playing keep a 15-foot line on the "problem" dog. But I'd be more concerned with them behaving well, rather than, playing well for a while. One gets to play and the other stays in "Place," 


And use a muzzle and a leash correction if you do let them play. They should both be able to do a "two-hour" "Place" and eventually both within each others presence and separately before moving on to play.

And they should both be taken on "Structured Walks" together and separately. And use a muzzle, on walks one dog on either side of you and after more work on "Place" you can try and walk them side by side use a muzzle on the one. And if you need to do a leash correction?? You want to pull the dog "sideways t throw them off balance not straight back, "unless" you are, training a dog to bite?? And I don't think that's what you want. 

Structured walk looks like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM


And I saw you ask specifically what to do if you see the dog preparing to strike?? No one has ever asked before that I have seen so it deserves an answer. 

But first I can tell you won't work! The last fight I saw "Rocky" posturing with Gunther. I was still allowing free roaming so ...yeah. Anyway this time, I stood on Rocky's flank. No drag leash (which I could not use on him in any case because he has "Wobblers") and I bet him, he would not dare to try something! 

In any case, he said yeah ...I'll take that bet! I'm fast but he was faster! I think that's the one where I got stitches breaking up a dog fight ... so yeah don't do that!  

I never was able to solve my pack issues because Gunther passed due to unrelated issues.  

I had another big issue was to come. HA, but that one turned out to big no big deal ... another story. Still I was not happy that I had these issue and I had no reasonable solutions. I had found plenty on management and structure as detailed thus far but nothing on delivering an "aversive" and teaching Rocky "to make better choices!"

Until that message gets delivered the fights continue! I know the "Pro's" use "Food Protocols" to help counter condition the dogs but at some point ... they have to deliver an "aversive??" Most likely they use an E-Collar but they don't show how?? And in any case, that does not work for me as I don't use one. 

So I kept looking for "crap free" advice of things that work with fighting biting dogs?? And finally, I found it! It's called a "Bonker!" A towel bound with rubber bands you throw it at the dog and hit the "offender" in the head or neck! Both dogs will run in opposite directions and the offender will get the message "to make better choices!" And the situation you described is "Exactly" how it came about! Details are here:

AggressionPractice

Why the Bonker Works | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

And if you have questions on this, anyone is free to ask the author:
https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39

So to sum up, *Crate train the dogs, **Train Place and do Sit on the Dog*, *NO Free Roaming in the House, in the house it's either Crate or Place*and no furniture privileges,
keep a drag leash on the trouble maker and a long line outside and use a muzzle when the two to are together. All of that is management if you "know" where they are ...they can't fight! 

And _*I*_ would deploy a "Bonker" as needed! If you do that "and time and aim properly "posturing" is not a problem it's an "opportunity to teach your dog to make better choices!" 

So yeah it's a lot but management alone will solve your current problems and training "Place, Sit on the Dog and Structured walks will instill discipline and respect!" That maybe all you need so call the "Bonker" plan B if the need arises.

And finally, if you want to find "competent qualified trainers" local to you see here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

And if you want to find "competent qualified" help on your own ...just ask the "trainer" if they utilize all Four Quadrants of Classical Operant Conditioning if they say anything other than "yes we do utilize all four Quadrants" ... they can't help you!

Sooo how is "this" for speifics??


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> My GSD has been "put in her place" early on with the older dog, but on about 5 occasions has attacked the male smaller dog.


What you are doing is observing the dogs behaving badly.

You need to develop a pack structure. To me that is any dog misbehaving is let know immediately of it's wrong doing and verbally or physically asked to stop and or corrected. 

The dogs begin to understand that I control the pack and they don't have the power to change the structure, challenge me or attempt to make another dog feel uncomfortable. We can call it constructive leadership. Employees squabbling among st them selves is not conducive to a successful business. Same goes for a dog pack imo.

It depends on what behaviors you are willing to accept and acknowledge as good or bad. So you need to look at it from different perspectives. Is your problem an issue with one dog or is it with the general pack structure.

You should always be the one solving problems not the dogs. They cannot have the power to attack or put pressure on another. If they do you need to apply pressure to them until they stop the aggression or bullying. 

You diffuse situations through body language and communication. Instruct the dogs to there places and to relax after any aggressive interaction. Instruct the dogs to relax before it escalates and let them know good behavior is expected.

Once the dogs realize you are in control they won't be as stressed as they know they don't need to compete for pack position. Then the pack relaxes and each dog is happy in it's position equal to the other dogs.

My 2 pence anyways.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't understand when puppy play switches to predator/prey why people don't see it? The "prey" dog makes it pretty obvious they're in trouble and need intervention.....


It's not always that easy to see. I catch it most of the time, but on occasion I didn't and it has gone into fight mode and it happens faster then you can blink. It is not always as simple as showing these dogs that you(the owner) are in control, because in order to do that you are putting the dog that is targeted in danger. No one wants to do that because you seriously don't know if it will be something that can be broken up or it will end badly. I certainly won't put any dog in that situation. Controlled or not it is not guaranteed that things will get better before they get worse.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't understand when puppy play switches to predator/prey why people don't see it? The "prey" dog makes it pretty obvious they're in trouble and need intervention.....


It requires experience, education, keen observation and certainly not humanizing a dog. We all started out some where and learned.
With my first dog , 40!! years ago, I thought that if they fought, they were solving their problems as long as there were no injuries. Boy, did I learn from that dog to educate myself on behavior and training.


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