# Some help with a decison!!



## Kaasuti (Aug 8, 2012)

I have been thinking today about when to get my boy Charlie neutered. My main questions are..

1: Will he mark in the house if i leave him intact??
2: I like him to have time off the leash in our local park, will keeping him intact make this impossible?.
3: I want him to reach his full growth as i feel it's only fair, is this silly?
4: I heard between 1 1.2 - 2 years old is this best time, shall i wait?.

Thanks in advance.
​


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

I don't have the answer but I know my father left his dogs intact and:

1. They never marked the house (inside)
2. He was more dominant with other males especially if a female in heat was around. Though there was no such thing as Dog Parks back then.
3/4. I feel the exact same way, my breeder says 8-10months is a good time, because they can get quite dominant and that doesn't go away. I was thinking 10-12 months personally.

I can't wait to some people with more experience step in.


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## Kaasuti (Aug 8, 2012)

TrentL said:


> I don't have the answer but I know my father left his dogs intact and:
> 
> 1. They never marked the house (inside)
> 2. He was more dominant with other males especially if a female in heat was around. Though there was no such thing as Dog Parks back then.
> ...


Thank you for your input . 
​


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've always spayed or neutered at 6 months, but decided to hold off with Delgado. I'm planning on leaving him until a year old, that's as long as the breeders contract allows without asking for a revision. I thought it might be harder having him intact but it's been surprisingly not that bad so far

There's been many discussions on the forum regarding this topic and you should read them but most importantly talk to your breeder and vet. It's ultimately your decision and you should get as much information as possible to make your decision


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## Shep's_Shepherd (Jan 18, 2012)

I’m certainly not an expert on the matter either, but I do have a pup that’s a bit over a year old, and I’ve asked his breeder and several of my pup’s trainers the same question. At this point in his development, we haven’t had any problems with any marking behavior inside the house. He seems to only mark during our walks wherever he smells an area where another dog has previously marked.

During our training and at our local parks, I haven’t experienced any serious problems. The only time it was an issue is in our training class where one of the assistant instructors has an older large male Rottweiler. The Rottie has growled at my dog as well as another intact male in the class. It seemed to be asserting its dominance with the younger, intact males, but the situation was quickly resolved. 

I agree with wanting to have your pup reach it’s full growth potential. Just like in humans, hormones play a vital role in a dog's development and I'm hesitant in cutting that short too early. I was also advised in waiting until he was at least two yrs old, if I get it done at all. Getting the dog fixed is not some magical cure all that will turn a dog’s behavior around overnight and resolve any and all problems that that some people believe it to be. 

I will mention that my pup is exclusively an indoor dog and doesn’t leave the house unattended or unsupervised. The last thing we need is a loose dog getting “busy” around the neighborhood making more dogs. :crazy:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

All the things you mentioned are obedience things.

1. No, a dog shouldn't mark inside ever. If he does...you haven't trained him correctly, intact or not.
2. Intact dogs definitely react differently to other intact dogs. This isn't the case for all dogs, but most dog fights at parks are between intact males. They are more dominant and they like to sort things out. That being said, my dog doesn't react to other intact males unless they react to him. So...he shows no aggression, but he does do those little dominance things to them. This can lead them to react to him, or sometimes other intact dogs will react without anything happening. After they react to him...he will react aggressively. So if you don't want to risk as many fights or putting your dog in danger, its probably better to get it done...unless you have 100% recall on him so you can call him off anything. If you have a lot of intact females around, you might want to do it if you will leave him off leash a lot. I go to fenced in areas, or areas off the beaten path to let my boy off lead, but he won't ever be off lead in a populated area...nothing is going to get him to recall if there is a female in heat around.
3-4. Kind of your decision. He'll still get big, just won't get some of the secondary sex characteristics. Maybe a bit smaller head/chest. But nothing size wise. Maybe 10 lbs less at his full adult weight. Do your research...talk to other people that you know with lots of GSD experience and see what's right for you.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I go to fenced in areas, or areas off the beaten path to let my boy off lead, but he won't ever be off lead in a populated area...*nothing is going to get him to recall if there is a female in heat around*.


I let my 7mo off leash whenever is possible, populated areas, parks, and trails, etc. His recall and velcro-mindset is decent enough for it. But, my vet said this as well, and is one of main reason I will neuter. Is that selfish? haha

(Biggest reason being, his genes are not to be touched - pet shop pup)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I left my previous male intact until he was about four, I think. I never had any issues with him fighting with other dogs, being dominant, marking, or anything else. I had a female, also. When she went into heat, we had all kinds of fun with him and keeping him away from her!  They both got fixed in short order after that! I'm not into dog parks or having him roaming around off lead, so this wasn't an issue, either. I don't know when I'll fix my new male... but it's not high up on the priority list right now. At the very least he'll probably be 2... even though I have ZERO intention on breeding him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

1. No, that is a house training issue.
2. Manners and recall at the dog park are training issues.
3. No, it's not silly to me or many people. You don't need to perform a surgery for no reason if you don't want to.
4. Yes, it's best to wait until the dog is physically mature.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Jack's 5 intact and even my vet says "why neuter?"

That said, my dogs have a large fenced property and have no need for dog parks.

I'm guessing, female in heat + intact male = mating or attempt. My question would be what idiot would take a female in season to a dog park??!

oh, and your male will definitely look more "male" if you leave intact 'til at least 2 years.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I have had up to 4 intact males in my house at a time. They were NEVER aggressive to one another. Intact animals can be more aggressive due to hormones, but this is not always the case, especially with proper training and socialization. I should also mention I've also had intact females in heat around these male dogs and never had a fight, EVER. Again, this is not always the case, but my dogs are beyond trained and socialized and managed properly. Currently I have 2 intact males (Reagan who is 9yrs old, and Stark who is 15months old) and 1 intact female (Madison who is 5yrs old). I also have spayed and neutered dogs. I honestly don't see a huge difference in anyones' personality due to them being intact or altered. I also have a intact 15month old Pointer who comes to board with me on occasion.

No one marks in the house. This is a housebreaking issue and one that some people like to get lazy on and blame on 'marking' instead of just poor housebreaking skills. I've worked with rescues and fosters that have been intact and marked in the house and by the time they leave here they are no longer marking. I just treat any dog that uses the bathroom in the house as an un-housebroken dog and training is set up accordingly! 

Honestly, most dogs shouldn't be at dog parks... especially most GSDs. I wouldn't recommend letting him have offleash time with random dogs regardless. My dogs play well with other dogs, but I would NEVER just throw them into a fenced in area with dogs that they or I did not know! What happens if your dog is playing nicely, but another dog is overstimulated, bullies your dog, and then your dog has to react accordingly? Your dog goes away with a new experience of having to 'take up' for himself and may be more likely to use his newly learned skills on another dog... every situation our dogs are in give them life experience... not all life experiences are good. It's better to ensure that your dog learns appropriate behaviors rather than inappropriate ones and letting them lose at a dog park is eventually going to lead to behaviors you'd probably rather them not have learned. 

1.5-2 years is a good time (IMO) to alter.

and some links...

Is Early Neutering Hurting Pets?

Spay & Neuter Adverse Effects


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I had my boys, I could call them when the girls were flagging through their kennels at them. They would come. They were both intact. But I suppose they were also smart enough to know they could not get into the girls' kennels, AND, they really can't breed the bitch through the fence. 

Still, If a female in heat is loose, your boy will likely temporarily lose his hearing, as his goofy hormones go haywire. I have NEVER had a Near-Bitch-In-Heat experience though. 

I think it is really up to you. Train the dog, train, train, train, and if you want to wait until 18 months or 24 months, or never, then that is up to you too.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> I have had up to 4 intact males in my house at a time. They were NEVER aggressive to one another. http://www.chercarkennels.net/rethinkingspayneuter.html


Out of Curiosity how often did you breed them? Where they in sports (Like Sch?) or in Protection Training?

I've gotten mixed stories that intact males either need an outlet for aggression (Like Sch or Bite work) or they need to get lucky once a year.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Intact males do not need an outlet for aggression, they simply need exercise - like any other dog. Being 'hormonal' just amplifies this need. Under exercised dogs with a lot of energy are going to cause issues regardless of whether they are intact or not. So when one is intact people blame that instead of lack of exercise. 

And again, there's training and socialization that plays a huge role.

As well as genetics. 

So it's not just that the dog is intact. Neutered dogs can be aggressive and then what do you blame? The fact that neutering helps decrease aggression isn't completely true (necessarily) neutering can decrease drive/energy levels which means you don't have to supply the same amount of exercise to create a calm dog.


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

My parents have an intact male Rottweiler, he has been great at dog parks when he used to go. They are older now so he stays home more.

My sister raises and shows Ridgebacks and the two males are intact, and well behaved. But she does not take them to dog parks. It's the other dogs that she insists you have to watch out for. 

My other sister who shows Dachshunds has an intact breeding male, he is good for the most part but if a female is in heat he is obsessed.

We had a boxer rott cross intact, was the best dog ever and VERY well behaved.

I have heard that if you can wait with Shepherds to develop, it is ideal.

And lastly, I would go by your intuition. If your dog is showing significant changes and is becoming dominant, then you may want to consider it before an issue develops. I think dog parks are something to really consider, before you let an intact male loose. When another dog gets his feathers ruffled you just don't know how the situation might escalate. Maybe opt for some nature hiking where you can go with a friend or two and where you are able to let your dogs off leash and play together. Might be a better choice than a busy dog park. 

I am going to wait with my puppy girl as I want to do some competitions and let her mature fully.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

TrentL said:


> I've gotten mixed stories that intact males either need an outlet for aggression (Like Sch or Bite work) or they need to get lucky once a year.


That is just some silly story created by a male who wanted to get lucky. An intact male is just like any other canine, they need their exercise. IMO - female dogs can be just as or even more aggressive than males. 

To the OP - many dog parks will not allow an intact male at the park after a certain age. Check with the dog parks you wish to visit. 

Keeping your dog intact depends on your ability to manage your dog. I have never altered any of my dogs unless due to a medical reason. I never have accidents in the house...or over aggression...or oops litters...or escape artists...

I currently have three males and one female. My Golden is altered due to vet advice/medical issues - he is the only dog I have that has aggression issues. My female is altered because she was a rescue. My other two males are intact. They are best buds. At this point, I have no plans altering either one.


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

This is so true! Great advice!



e.rigby said:


> Intact males do not need an outlet for aggression, they simply need exercise - like any other dog. Being 'hormonal' just amplifies this need. Under exercised dogs with a lot of energy are going to cause issues regardless of whether they are intact or not. So when one is intact people blame that instead of lack of exercise.
> 
> And again, there's training and socialization that plays a huge role.
> 
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

zyppi said:


> My question would be what idiot would take a female in season to a dog park??!


THANK YOU! lol That's like saying we shouldn't take food driven dogs because someone might toss a flank steak in the middle of the dog park. It's not just intact males that are interested in females, they are just the only ones that can fertilize the egg, lol!!! I haven't seen a male dog intact or not show *no* interest in a female in standing heat. Intact males can still mount and tie!


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

The vet brought up few pros rather than the temperance issues. The only one that comes to mind is no risk of prostate or testicular cancer, though I am not entirely sure how common that is among GSD. She did said it *really* helps with temperance if it is done before 7 months. Is it the consensus here that neutering doesn't alter temperance? This is always a debating point.

Personally, I am going to listen to and work with my vet and neuter my boy at some point. Not going to argue with her, she probably totally 100% knows more than I do and highly recommended it, and is willing to work with when we both feel comfortable doing it. If you aren't going to show or breed your dog, what are the reasons for keeping intact, development aside?

PS my vet is also for RAW/BARF feeding, so I think she's got a good opinion set


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Is it the consensus here that neutering doesn't alter temperance?


I think male dogs can be made more biddable when neutered. 
That is my opinion after working 10 yrs. in rescue and seeing neutered and intact dogs and comparing an intact dog to after surgery.



> As well as genetics.


I also believe genetics are responsible for appearances, there's "bitchy" appearing males and "doggy" appearing females, even intact.

One of our more "feminine" appearing Dachshunds (refined head, delicate features) is a male left intact until adulthood and one of our most "doggy" appearing boys (larger/more muscular/"blocky" style head) is a boy neutered as a puppy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

jeliya said:


> The vet brought up few pros rather than the temperance issues. The only one that comes to mind is no risk of prostate or testicular cancer, though I am not entirely sure how common that is among GSD. She did said it *really* helps with temperance if it is done before 7 months. Is it the consensus here that neutering doesn't alter temperance? This is always a debating point.


Yes, neutering will eliminate the risk of cancer to parts that are no longer there.

Do you mean temperament? Temperament is genetic, you can't really change it a whole lot. Sometimes neutering can help reduce the dog's desire for certain behaviors but sometimes there is no effect and sometimes these get worse. At any rate, neutering is not really a substitute for good training and working with the young dog to have good manners. I'm curious how many intact male GSDs this vet has actually owned and trained.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I totally call BS on the vet saying it will change his temperament. My first GSD got aggressive because he was taunted and then was trying to protect me. My vet told me that if I had him neutered, his temperament would change. It didn't. Not one bit. My last male was intact for years. After I had him neutered, there was zero change in his temperament one way or another. (He was a good dog before and after) I don't know why vets say this. I've found nothing in my years of owning male dogs to support this at all. (I've had many) I wonder if they don't say this just to keep the "oops" population under control.. thinking this is the best way to scare the average owner into neutering. If it is, I don't blame them, but it's a bunch of bologna. Temperament is genetics, and behavior is training and environment. Also, if you neuter early like that your male isn't going to develop the same as he would if he were left intact.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Neutering will not change temperament, but it can affect behavior. You're less likely to see marking, roaming, obsessing over females, posturing with other males, etc. I have noticed that intact males tend to have more of an "edge" to them; they are wound just a bit tighter than neutered males. Neutering doesn't seem to have much of an effect on energy and activity levels, but it can make them a bit more biddable, as they aren't distracted by hormonal interests and don't "go deaf" as much.  

However, all these things, including the concerns you mentioned, are training issues. If the dog is well-trained and socialized, it shoudn't matter whether he is neutered or not. Neutering does reduce the risk of certain cancers, and unwanted pregnancies of course, and to new or inexperienced people of limited dog-savvy, I do recommend that males be neutered at a fairly young age (6-9 months depending on breed and temperament) just to make it easier for them.

Appearance is affected both by genetics, and hormones. Male hormones will help a dog put on muscle, grow healthy bones and joints, and develop a wide, masculine head. Males left intact tend to grow a bit stockier as opposed to males neutered young, who tend to grow tall and lanky. But the difference is slight and probably not noticeable to most people. Some dogs are born looking masculine, and will continue looking masculine even after being neutered. Others develop these secondary sex characteristics slowly, and early neuter will curtail them.

In all, it's a personal decision. If you are a responsible dog owner, and train your dog well, it shouldn't matter if/when you neuter. But there is nothing wrong with getting it done just to curtail any negative behaviors associated with male hormones, if that is what you feel most comfortable with. With my own dogs, I would take it on a case-by-case basis. If, at 7 months, a male pup is being a total butt-head despite my best efforts at training, I'd probably opt for neutering him before a year of age. If his temperament, attitude and training is all coming along where I want it, I wouldn't be in a hurry to neuter.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

As someone else said, it's a personal decision but it needs to be based on your ability to responsibly care for an intact pet. If your pet has escaped even once, neuter or spay it, no matter what the age.
If you attend dog parks where other intact animals go, and your pet could accidentally breed with another intact animal, neuter or spay it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> As someone else said, it's a personal decision but it needs to be based on your ability to responsibly care for an intact pet. If your pet has escaped even once, neuter or spay it, no matter what the age.
> If you attend dog parks where other intact animals go, and your pet could accidentally breed with another intact animal, neuter or spay it.


If you are right there, you can prevent your dog breeding a bitch. People with bitches in heat should not be bringing them to dog parks. A lot of parks require that animals be spayed or neutered anyway. 

It is a personal decision and if you cannot contain a dog you should not own a dog. If a dog escapes, even once, fix the point of escape. fix the problem, not the dog. Cars do not stop and check for family jewels before smooshing dogs. There are just as many dangers out there in the big bad world for neutered and spayed dogs as there are for intact ones. 

If you have both male and female dogs, and you are afraid you cannot keep them separate, then fix one or both.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

> I have been thinking today about when to get my boy Charlie neutered. My main questions are..
> 
> 1: Will he mark in the house if i leave him intact??


 

It's normally a house-training issue, not a hormonal issue. Littler breeds sometimes have trouble with marking indoors because they have a more difficult time seeing the entire home as their living space (or at least that is my running theory). Samson has done it only two or three times, ever. 



> 2: I like him to have time off the leash in our local park, will keeping him intact make this impossible?.


Depends on the rules of your park. Usually that has less to do with on/off leash though, and whether or not they are allowed period. For peace of mind it may be better to have him neutered. No, people are not *supposed* to bring in-heat females to dog parks, but they sometimes do anyway.

Keep an eye on his temperament and behavior. If he seems to do fine around other dogs and does not obsess, if he has a rock-solid recall, he may be okay. Still best to keep a very watchful eye though.




> 3: I want him to reach his full growth as i feel it's only fair, is this silly?




There do tend to be some differences, but as long as they are most of the way done in growing their frame, I don't think you'll see much difference. The major difference is in musculature, and even then, genetics can override that. You'll see much more difference in a breed like a Great Dane than you will a German Shepherd, though you'll still see some.



> 4: I heard between 1 1.2 - 2 years old is this best time, shall i wait?.




You can if you like. I don't put much stock in a single medical study, in which I am not privy to the details under which it was done (i.e., I only know the results), and which has not been repeated. They are interesting to note, but also remember that most if not all of these only establish correlation, not causation. The results we see may not even be because of a neuter.

The best way to make this decision, IMHO, is based upon what will make things easier on you and your dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It's normally a house-training issue, not a hormonal issue.


Actually that's not quite right...
01 Housetraining a Urine Marking Male Dog - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

It's more of a behavioral issue than housetraining but it's also "normal" for males to mark. That's a great article to help understand the difference between housetraining and marking behavior.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> People with bitches in heat should not be bringing them to dog parks.


Oh, if only life were so simple. 
People with dog-aggressive dogs shouldn't bring them to dog parks either, but in this real world they do. 
In that dream world you're talking about, people wouldnt bring in-heat dogs to the park but they do, in this _real world._





selzer said:


> if you cannot contain a dog you should not own a dog.


And again, I have no clue where this Utopian world you speak of exists but it isn't here, because the largest number of dogs (and probably cats) in shelters are intact animals. 

Irresponsible people shouldn't own dogs, you're right, but they do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Where are all the owners of intact males that pee in the house and breed at the dog park....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Oh, if only life were so simple.
> People with dog-aggressive dogs shouldn't bring them to dog parks either, but in this real world they do.
> In that dream world you're talking about, people wouldnt bring in-heat dogs to the park but they do, in this _real world._
> 
> ...


But your sample is skewed. Irresponsible people let their dogs roam. These dogs get lost some times, and are picked up. Most irresponsible people who let their dogs roam, do not bother to spay or neuter. But it does not work the other way. People who do not spay or neuter are not all irresponsible. 

I take offense at the idea that I live in a dream world. That is a personal attack. Sorry. 

Even if someone has a bitch in heat in a dog park, your dog is not going to be left alone long enough to mount her head, clean her, groom her, check her out, mount her again, try again, clean her, see her flag, jump on her again and finally hit pay dirt. Sorry, anyone who is not in La La Land could notice that there is mating behaviors going on, and they need to get their dog away from the bitch whose irresponsible owners brought to the dog park. 

I have had intact dogs (males) for about 12 years and have NEVER run across an intact female anywhere that was in heat. So I would say the majority of intact bitch owners DO actually keep them at home. 

You said that if your dog got loose one time, spay/neuter. I say balony. I say if your dog gets loose one time, fix the problem, the faulty door latch, the fence, the kennel latch, the kids letting the dog run loose. If you cannot with relative certainty contain a dog, then you have no business owning a GSD, or any other dog for that matter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> Where are all the owners of intact males that pee in the house and breed at the dog park....


You must live in the same dream world I live in.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Guess so. I mean, I'm no fan of the dog park, but all the times I've dared to go, intact males and/or bitches in standing heat were the least of my worries....

As for marking behaviors, I see that as *dog* behavior, not intact male behavior. I had a female that is really dominant with other dogs (not so around people) and she would do those rear leg scrapes so hard the sod went flying. Dogs, male or female intact or altered, all have ways of marking or they just don't care to mark. Worst marking dog I know is an altered female Corgi (she's also one of my favorite dogs ever). She will follow our pack of dogs around and makes sure to mark on top of *any* dog that pees or does anything (but she doesn't pee in the house). Cutest, sweetest dog ever but when it comes to marking she treats it like a career!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1: i've never neutered my dogs and they have never marked in the house.

2: my dog is rarely leashed and i haven't had a problem with
him being off leash. we're around other dogs, we take walks
in the woods, we're on farms, we're in the city and country
and being off leash hasn't been a problem.

3: there's nothing silly about wanting your dog to develope.

4: if i were going to neuter my dog he would be 2 years old or older.

why do you want to neuter your dog?



Kaasuti said:


> I have been thinking today about when to get my boy Charlie neutered. My main questions are..​
> 
> 1: Will he mark in the house if i leave him intact??
> 2: I like him to have time off the leash in our local park, will keeping him intact make this impossible?.
> ...


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## Kaasuti (Aug 8, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> 1: i've never neutered my dogs and they have never marked in the house.
> 
> 2: my dog is rarely leashed and i haven't had a problem with
> him being off leash. we're around other dogs, we take walks
> ...



I don't really want to neuter him, It's the pressure i'm getting off of family members about getting him done. It's irritating infact.​


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Actually that's not quite right...
> 01 Housetraining a Urine Marking Male Dog - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
> 
> It's more of a behavioral issue than housetraining but it's also "normal" for males to mark. That's a great article to help understand the difference between housetraining and marking behavior.


It's not normal indoors. The reason I suspect small dogs have more issue with this than large dogs (I've only dealt with a couple incidents with Samson, and I know several large dog owners who have never had it come up), is because they have a harder time seeing the entire home as the den.

Dogs shouldn't, by instinct, want to scent-mark their "den" area.

If I allow it, he's a *crazy* outdoor marker though. That much is _definitely _hormonally driven. He will keep going even when he's running on empty and has nothing left to mark with.

If it was truly a hormonal or behavioral issue, I should have had problems with this indoors as well. If they are marking _indoors_, it's a house-breaking (training) issue. Unless we are talking about a little dog, then perhaps it is a hormonal & behavioral issue. I don't think the same can (usually) be said for large dogs.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Kaasuti said:


> I don't really want to neuter him, It's the pressure i'm getting off of family members about getting him done. It's irritating infact.​


Any particular reason you don't? Not being judgmental or implying anything, just curious.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just tell your family he got one of those new dog vasectomies instead.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> If you cannot with relative certainty contain a dog, then you have no business owning a GSD, or any other dog for that matter.


Didn't one of your bitches get out recently?

All I'm saying is, accidents happen and they can happen to anyone. I happen to agree that people should take pains to ensure their yard is dog-proof, but if you have children, deliverymen, meter readers, contractors working on your property, etc., even the best security can have a breach... so I think it's a bit extreme to say that if your dog gets out during such a breach, you shouldn't own a dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Kaasuti said:


> I don't really want to neuter him, It's the pressure i'm getting off of family members about getting him done. It's irritating infact.​


See, This is the problem. Society, family, the vet, pretty much everyone has an opinion about this issue. Most people (who say something) are going to fall on the pro neuter side and feel it is thier civic duty to persuade you to alter your pet. The bottom line is that it is YOUR decision. If you feel that it would be better to neuter by all means do it. However, it is YOUR decision. If you don't want to do it and are confident you can manage an intact animal, then DON'T DO IT. There are both positives and negatives to the decsion and there are very valid health arguments for not neuturing just as there are for neutering. 

My suggestion is to put off the decision for a while, do more research on the issue and tell the people pressuring you to do this to back off. He is your dog and in the end you will make the right decision.

Rob


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Draugr said:


> Dogs shouldn't, by instinct, want to scent-mark their "den" area.


But they do, at times, and more often than not. 
They mark the perimeter, which, to them, isn't the same as the actual den. It's expected for them to mark the perimeter which may be the door frame or something near it, the outer walls of the "den". 

Our last GSD would scent mark the walls or posts, when we brought in new dogs.
Every. Single. Time.


I'm just saying that the reason it's a hit or miss thing (pardon the pun) with any size or breed of dog is that it's not housebreaking, it's related to hormones but it's also a behavioral thing, too. A dog could be 100% housetrained and still mark. OH, and our marking GSD was neutered at about 5mos. of age.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not getting the connection....you're saying it's hormonal related to being intact but saying your GSD that marked WAS neutered at 5 months of age? Maybe I'm just lucky but in my circle (working dogs, breeding dogs, conformation, sports/competition) I know way more intact dogs than not and I don't know anyone that struggles with their intact male GSD marking in their house.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You're lucky.
Did you read the article, Lies??

01 Housetraining a Urine Marking Male Dog - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Many working dog folks keep their dogs outside, too, just sayin'. 

We have dozens of foster dogs come in (150-200/year) and most, if intact, do mark inside the home. That's an affront to our male dogs, who feel it is _their_ home and rightly so.

PS. We see all sorts of intact male behaviors even in neutered males no matter their age, I do not know why this is, or claim to, but even our Tristan marks over Veronica's pee (a male trait) and he's been neutered for some 4 1/2yrs.
Maybe the influence of testosterone in their brains patterns their brains in a permanent way that stays that way even after neuter, no matter what the age of neuter?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> But your sample is skewed.


I don't think so.
I am wondering how you account for all the purebred dogs in shelters and rescue, if you believe all owners are so responsible? 



selzer said:


> I take offense at the idea that I live in a dream world. That is a personal attack. Sorry.


It might be, had I said "the dream world YOU LIVE IN". I said nothing of the sort, so you'll need to re-read my post. 
I said "you speak of" and you extrapolated "you live in" from that. Sorry.



selzer said:


> Even if someone has a bitch in heat in a dog park, your dog is not going to be left alone long enough to mount her head, clean her, groom her, check her out, mount her again, try again, clean her, see her flag, jump on her again and finally hit pay dirt. Sorry, anyone who is not in La La Land could notice that there is mating behaviors going on, and they need to get their dog away from the bitch whose irresponsible owners brought to the dog park.


Judging from the amount of dog fights there, we could safely assume people don't pay a lot of attention to their dogs while they are there, and/or are irresponsible owners (going by the number of fights and attacks alone). 
Also, if mating is such a tedious act, why do we drive along the road and see dogs mating in someone's backyard, or alongside the road? It somehow manages to get done 



selzer said:


> I have had intact dogs (males) for about 12 years and have NEVER run across an intact female anywhere that was in heat. So I would say the majority of intact bitch owners DO actually keep them at home.


Which is odd, since every girl who comes here is either in heat, just got out of heat, or is already carrying a batch of puppies, or has just had a litter.



selzer said:


> If you cannot with relative certainty contain a dog,* then you have no business owning a GSD,* or any other dog for that matter.


And again, in a Utopian world, that would be the case. However, as you know, it is a free country in which we live, and therefore thousands of irresponsible owners own dogs, and yes, even GSDs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My fosters will pee inside too if I let them, but that's a training issue, especially considering they are spayed and neutered. If the have an accident or get a chance to mark before I catch them, my intact males are not running around behind them marking in the house. Gross. How do we account for the amount of spayed and neutered dogs that will pee in the house and/or mark all over outdoors when given the chance? It's just DOG behavior. Half dozen of one, six of another. I still maintain the worst marker I know is a young, spayed, female.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> My fosters will pee inside too if I let them, but that's a training issue, especially considering they are spayed and neutered. How do we account for the amount of spayed and neutered dogs that will pee in the house and/or mark all over outdoors when given the chance? It's just DOG behavior.


We don't "let them" but even with the best of supervision an accident may happen in the form of marking. And there's a delay in when we get in dogs and their spay/neuter date.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah it happens here too but it's not just intact males, it's all of them (and my intact males do not respond by marking indoors). I see marking as just DOG behavior in general, not something that is perpetrated only by intact males.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm not getting the connection....you're saying it's hormonal related to being intact but saying your GSD that marked WAS neutered at 5 months of age? Maybe I'm just lucky but in my circle (working dogs, breeding dogs, conformation, sports/competition) I know way more intact dogs than not and I don't know anyone that struggles with their intact male GSD marking in their house.


Same here. And 90% of the working dogs that I know are actually house pets...Yet no marking problems whatsoever.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Being intact does play a role, however.
Many dogs neutered as puppies never do start doing it.

MOST adult males, when left intact do, many keep it to outside only but many do bring it in the house, too.

Veterinarian advice is to neuter before puberty to (hopefully) head it off before it starts, since, if it does happen, it's harder to get rid of, then to prevent in the 1st place.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But many neutered dogs do it to, and some start after being neutered (or get worse). I guess I'm not going to perform surgeries to "hopefully" stop something before it starts when the something has never been an issue for me or anyone I know and when it is, has had a medical explanation (UTI or bladder infection) or a simple training and management solution. It's easy enough to stop before it starts with training and management. Fosters are one thing but I'm talking about dogs that people own and the OP already owns the dog and can very easily potty train it properly. I have no problems with spay/neuter even at young ages but would rather people do it for solid reasons and not hoping that it might later on prevent a behavior that is preventable anyway.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

The fosters you get in generally speaking have had poor or even no training, right? I would expect their housebreaking, among other training, to be lacking.

Hence, a training issue.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Should add, before I leave for work, I don't disagree that sometimes it can be a hormonal issue, or that when it is an issue, hormones contribute to it - I just don't think it's _normally_ an issue of hormones.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Kaasuti said:


> I have been thinking today about when to get my boy Charlie neutered. My main questions are..​
> 
> 
> 1: Will he mark in the house if i leave him intact??
> ...


1. I never had an issue with the boy I left intact until yesterday (16+ months) ever marking in the house.

2. I did find that taking the intact boy to the dog park attracted much attention from other intact males. Not good attention. We quit going. My dog was never aggressive towards them -- it was always them going for him. It was always the intact males. Just my experience.

3. No, not silly IMHO.

4. It is said that is the best time, in terms of development.

I had always intended to neuter him between 18 mos - 2 years, but recent behavior patterns on his part made me go ahead and do it in the hopes for improvement. I wouldn't have done it yet had certain things not begun to surface. (Not marking -- but increased aggressive behavior towards another male dog in the house and some guarding issues.)

The hard part is discerning what is a lack of training vs a hormonal thing. 

I decided it was hormonal and went ahead and had the procedure done. I hope I was right. I'll be able to report back on that in a couple of months. :shocked:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> I don't think so.
> I am wondering how you account for all the purebred dogs in shelters and rescue, if you believe all owners are so responsible?


This is about the sample being skewed. 

I NEVER said all owners are so responsible. Many people who are irresponsible about containment, don't feel any need to spay or neuter either. But that does not mean that everyone who chooses not to spay or neuter will be irresponsible about containment. 

There are excellent reasons NOT to spay or neuter a canine, and certainly not to spay or neuter too young. There ARE reasons to spay or neuter, and even some reasons to do it young. I think there is a LOT of misinformation bantered about by the pro-neuter crowd. My boys did not mark in my house, my boys were not left to roam, my boys did not get goofy or crazy if they weren't mated, my boys could work even if there were females in heat around. I almost always had someone in heat, or going into heat, or coming out of heat, and my boys weren't even a nuisance about it. A lot of it IS training, and some is management. It does NOT take a rocket scientist to keep a dog intact. 

Even my lazy brother managed to keep his golden retriever male intact without accidents, and he had two intact GSD bitches for much of that time, and he was not set like Fort Knox as I am. He had a couple of crates in the house, and did not even have a fence outside. No puppies, no marking, no aggressiveness. If he could do it, anyone on this site could, I mean, he is not exactly a dog-person. Why did he not spay/neuter? Because he has a bachelor's in nursing and has done a lot of work toward becoming a nurse practitioner, and well, he has a healthy respect for the body's systems, and doesn't think the practice of altering a person or creature that doesn't have a specific issue related to the reproductive system is healthy.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I have to say I have never heard of any males marking in the house...intact or not. I've heard that neutering early can cut off certain aggression towards other dogs (keep the dog a puppy for longer) and it does in some cases lessen humping/dominating behavior. But I have seen plenty of neutered dogs hump, and I have seen plenty start fights as well. Sadly no study will ever be controlled enough to really figure out what goes on with or without those hormones. Each dog is different and each dog is raised differently, so nothing is ever truly caused by one or the other.

I'm definitely pro-neuter. When I don't know the person, I don't trust them to keep their dog contained or trained well enough to control an intact dog. I don't trust 99% of dog owners to know what they are doing and so I'd prefer that they neuter. I'll never come out and tell someone what they should do with their dog...but I will more than likely suggest they neuter.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We co-owned an intact show dog (Keeshond) about 8yrs. ago and that thing marked all over the place. In that case, hormones plus non-training played a role - he was an adult when he came to us, and lived in an outdoor kennel until then.
The thing is, once one does it, unless you are diligent about getting the smell out w/enzyme, others will. It kind of perpetuates itself.

That is really the main reason I have heard people tell me they'd prefer females to males, that and just the fact males often tend to let it "all hang out" so to speak 

I think I hear and see much more of this type thing than your average dog owner because we're doing rescue and taking in all these intact males from the streets and shelters, and on the other end, trying to place them into responsible homes, when those homes are telling us "Gross, I'd never own a male; they mark all over".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> when the something has never been an issue for me or anyone I know


I'm really amazed that so few have heard of this--
One search of "google", shows like, a billion websites devoted to the issue.

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugex..._pw.r_qf.&fp=f3803001d38086d7&biw=938&bih=465


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah people have these issues but I've never personally heard of it from any of my dog acquaintances. I also have to tell you this...few days ago a poster had a comment about how they couldn't wait to be able to put an ecollar on their puppy because they couldn't housebreak it for the life of them.

I mean...the public never ceases to amaze so of course plenty of people have housebreaking issues. I'm guessing the neutering thing came from cats though...once you do it to a tomcat they don't spray the house anymore so people just equate the same thing to dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I have had male dogs exclusively minus one. When I had both an intact male and an intact female, my male went ONCE in my house. He was corrected for this, and NEVER did it again. As for marking outside, it was always our fixed mutt FEMALE that was the 'final pee-er" over where everyone else had gone. I truly understand a rescue's POV on the subject. I've had rescue dogs and rescue parrots. (If you think dog shelters are full... try finding an opening at a good parrot rescue!) I'm sure that somewhere along the way my male came across a female in heat. However, he never reacted to it. He wasn't allowed off lead, never taken to dog parks. No problem. He never tried to escape or run off. Easy solution to rescues waiting to be fixed... don't allow them around unaltered dogs. I'm glad that rescues spay and neuter all incoming dogs, don't get me wrong. However, from my own experiences and others here who have posted, I don't see a lot of merit in the reasons you listed. It those were really issues, I'd expect people that have intact dogs to at least agree with it. I'm not seeing that, so it sounds more like conjecture than fact.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> I'm really amazed that so few have heard of this--
> One search of "google", shows like, a billion websites devoted to the issue.


What issue, potty training dogs? lol Yeah you have to house break a dog and train it where to go and where not to go or it's going to go in the house. I don't see this as an "issue" as much as just part of owning and living with a dog. I can Google anything to prove any point under the sun, I am saying that the diligent dog owners I know do not have problems with dogs peeing in the house, or making in the house behind other dogs that aren't trained yet. I'm not any more likely to surgically alter my dogs because other people can't house break their dogs than I am to file his teeth because he chews my socks or de-bark him because he barks at squirrels. Training and management is a lot cheaper, more effective, and there's no risk.

Dogs that were kennel raised or allowed to grow up with poor habits don't really mean anything here since the OP already has a young dog and is presumably already potting training it to be clean in the house.

Neutering a dog just for potty training just seems, well, lazy to me.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Why did he not spay/neuter? Because he has a bachelor's in nursing and has done a lot of work toward becoming a nurse practitioner, and well, he has a healthy respect for the body's systems, and doesn't think the practice of altering a person or creature that doesn't have a specific issue related to the reproductive system is healthy.


 He is studying HUMAN medicine, not canine medicine. Human and canine reproductive systems are different. Very different.

When his females turn up with a pyometra or mammary cancer and have to have expensive treatment and/or euthanized, he might change his ideas.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> What issue, potty training dogs?


No. That marking is not pottying. 
You should know this. 
Do you think a dog PEEING looks like a dog MARKING?

Free, exactly...if dog reproduction was like human, they'd have periods, not heats 
For starters!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> 1. No, that is a house training issue.
> 2. Manners and recall at the dog park are training issues.
> 3. No, it's not silly to me or many people. You don't need to perform a surgery for no reason if you don't want to.
> 4. Yes, it's best to wait until the dog is physically mature.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Kaasuti (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you for all the information guys. He has an amazing recall and heel, so i think he'll be fine when he's older. I will think about getting him done when he is older.​


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> No. That marking is not pottying.
> You should know this.
> Do you think a dog PEEING looks like a dog MARKING?


For me training a dog not to pee or mark in the house is all part of potty training. I don't only do one or the other. Maybe because I have intact males I just consider it one in the same. For me the implications are the same...nasty pee in my house. I don't really care if they pee or mark outside in designated areas and I don't really care what their motivations are. They aren't allowed to do either indoors, even if someone else does it first. My intact males lift their leg to pee or mark. I don't really sit there and try to discern every time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> He is studying HUMAN medicine, not canine medicine. Human and canine reproductive systems are different. Very different.
> 
> When his females turn up with a pyometra or mammary cancer and have to have expensive treatment and/or euthanized, he might change his ideas.


His bitch was over fourteen when he put her down. Nope, she never ever got pyometra, even though my vet told me that ALL females would get it. They do not. Jazzy did not. She didn't get mammary cancer either. He doesn't want to be tied down to any more animals at present though, so I think he will never learn how wrong he was. IF he was. 

As for my girls, they are all intact, and they will stay that way unless there is a problem with their reproductive system at which time I will spay them. I just do not see the need to do some thing to prevent a possible issue, that is likely to cause other issues. 

Humans and Dogs are both animals, both mammals. They both bear their young alive, have hair, feed their young milk, etc. While our systems are not identical, I believe hormones do play a part in more than just reproduction, and I am going to go the natural route with my critters. 

It is funny that with all the improved foods, and all the vaccines, and all the preventatives, wormers, flea and tick stuff, that we did not have 30 or 40 years ago, you would expect the average life-span of dogs to go up. Unfortunately, that simply is not the case. And I think the increase in people spaying and neutering their dogs and doing it younger and younger does is just strange that that increase runs alongside a decrease in longevity though so many other things should suggest it should be the other way around. 

Talked to someone today whose dog died at 9 from hemangiosarcoma and yes she neutered when the vet told her to, at six months, to prevent cancer. That is in my opinion very sad that that kind of misinformation is abundantly spewed by vets and humane societies. Testicular cancer is the ONLY cancer that neutering dogs will reduce the risk of, and there is NO reason to neuter them so young to prevent testicular cancer. 

I just don't think the ends justify the means. Yes if people neuter all the males before they reach 6 months, there will be less puppies in shelters. I just don't think that makes it ok to frighten people with cancer, and tell them how much better behaved their dog will be if they neuter, or how bad he will be if they don't.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

What I'm going to tell you, OP, is do YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. And not just on this website. Research and google all over the place. Read everything you can. You can blow hours of time on one google search on this. The information out there is overwhelming.

I've struggled so very hard on this. I did finally neuter my male. There is no proper answer. Too many owners, too many differences in dogs, in situations, etc. 

It is a super heated topic. At the end of the day, though, it is your life and your dog. What works for someone may not work for another. Do not do anything that you feel pressured to do. Whatever decision you make, make it because you have solid research behind you and you feel it is the "right" thing to do.!


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

chelle said:


> What I'm going to tell you, OP, is do YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. And not just on this website. Research and google all over the place. Read everything you can. You can blow hours of time on one google search on this. The information out there is overwhelming.
> 
> I've struggled so very hard on this. I did finally neuter my male. There is no proper answer. Too many owners, too many differences in dogs, in situations, etc.
> 
> It is a super heated topic. At the end of the day, though, it is your life and your dog. What works for someone may not work for another. Do not do anything that you feel pressured to do. Whatever decision you make, make it because you have solid research behind you and you feel it is the "right" thing to do.!


Hit that on the nose. Bravo!


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