# BH: What would you do?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am looking for advice.

Stark is ready for his BH, I have been told by other people who have experience and I see it myself. I didn't think we would make it to this point in our training but we have. We have both worked very hard and Stark is now enjoying working with me. A big WOOHOO for that! 

I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to have his BH by the end of this year so we can start working on his 1 come the spring time and hopefully be ready to trial next summer. Big dreams I know.

There is no rush but I feel like he is ready.

The problem I have is this; Stark can be stranger reactive. He has never bitten anyone but when he reacts he lunges and barks which makes him look like a beast.

I have control in about 99.9% of the situations where I can catch him before he reacts and re-direct his attention. I does not matter if he is in "working mode" or not, no difference to him, he can still react so having him in heel position makes no difference.

In that 1% when he does react, I can get him back fairly quickly. Sometimes people don't even realize he was going to blow up into a barking, lunging maching because I catch him going into it and correct the behaviour (or re-direct would be a better word there).

We have been working on this for nearly 1.5 years and there is no change really, just maintance. He still can react if I leave him to make his own choices but if I am able to correct or re-direct then he is manageble. 

Not sure if that makes sense?

My question is, should I try for the BH or should I wait? The worst he will do is bark (usually doesn't lunge anymore) if someone gets close (approaching).

It is very hard to work with strangers because no one is willing to help us out. People are very nervous of Stark as it is and Stark reacts mostly to those who show fear around him, actually 90% of the time that is what he reacts too.

What would you do in this situation? Continue on working with him out and about or just go for it and try for the BH? Of course I will continue working with him regardless but I would like to start trialing.

I don't want to rush Stark and there is no pressure to perform, I just want to try it and get out there and experience it. If we get it, awesome, if not, we will continue working toward it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, it's the judges decision. He is supposed to take out weak nerved dogs but Stark doesn't sound like he's weak nerved, is he? 

I'd give it a shot. If you know the club and the judge give it a try. Don't be like me. I am always questioning myself if I should or shouldn't take it with Yukon. I know he'll pass. All those If's... can make it really hard to move forward. 

Give it a chance! If you don't pass, you don't pass, there is always a next time


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

What is his trigger? Eye contact? Would it help to do it during the summer when he's hot? Does it happen less often if he's a bit tired? Its up to the judge as to whether he would pass the traffic portion of the BH... I say go for the BH now and worst case if you fail, you can take it again. 

My male hunts for eye contact with people and then likes to "gruff" at them. I was really stressed when we were doing the "people closing him in" part of the BH. He didn't react at all. You might be surprised that the dog picks up on your stress and tension and decides to behave


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## Andy-jr. (Mar 1, 2010)

I would go for it. Like everyone else said, it's up to the judge. Does he react to other people if your just walking through a crowd?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The more you train, the less reactive he'll be to this. I wonder about Karlo sometimes...if someone pets him, etc how he'll react if he doesn't know them. He tends to be suspicious before he makes friends. I would think just going over the routine with random people/and training venues will make Stark less reactive to the situations. 
Chances are, you'll have to trial in a strange field without people he knows as the crowd?


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Who your judge is may play a large role in how he reacts. I have seen some judges who really put pressure on a dog and others who hardly pay attention. Unfortunatly the rules have a lot of room for interpretation. It will help you to know who the judge will be and how they like to do things so you can have a few mock trials under those exact circumstances. I will also say that when trial day comes if you are getting a bad vibe from your dog it's probably a good idea to save trialing for another day. Better to forfeit than fail due to aggression IMO.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What exactly does "I re-direct him" mean?


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Have you ever had anyone other than you handle him? Is he the same without you? 
Jax is the same way and I've always been curious if it's really him or just me?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The handler has about 90% to do with it IMO.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with that Anne!


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Vandal said:


> The handler has about 90% to do with it IMO.


+2 on this


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Tough one for me to give an opinion on. I know how hard you've worked with Stark. And I'm definately not trying to put a damper on your enthusiasm.

What do "you" think? Do you trust him completely? I've read what the BH entails, and I would ask myself, what would happen if he decided to lunge at someone while he's doing the offleash stuff? Could you handle that and be able to get him "back" before he reacted?

Have you gone thru the BH routine with a bunch of strangers? I know it's hard to use people for guinea pigs but just wondering.. 

I think, I'd look around for some obedience matches, and try those as a dry run so to speak. 

Only "you" can know whether you think he's ready and reliable, 99% is pretty darn good. I, personally, would be nervous of that 1%. Probably because I am such a competative person when I do/have competed, I just want to know when I go in a ring/trial, I'm going in there knowing what my dog will and won't do, doesn't matter if they qualify or not (well it does kinda I just want to go in there trusting my dog to be 100% reliable. 

Good luck with your decision , Masi sends Stark a big sloppy smooch


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I have the same vibe as Diane. One thing that really disturbed me was that the original poster is calling the dog "reactive". This stinks of denial of the fact that the dog is unpredictably AGGRESSIVE and might hurt someone. 

OP, are you aware of what can happen to you with your national club if the dog does bite someone?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I would not go for it even though I am not sure if Stark is reactive in the first place. You and your dog need to function as ONE team that is out there to WIN and SHINE. If one part of the team does not trust the other part and worries about potential situation than what is the point? Test the lucky stars?


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

My very personal opinion on your question is this...

I would NOT test for BH at this point in the game with the known issues. You do not want to burn bridges with judges should the dog show aggressive behavior on the field. I can see that word of mouth spreads very fast in the Schutzhund sport and you don't want to become pin board for future judges to make your trialing an un-enjoyable experience for both of you. There's plenty of time to get titles. Work on the known issues first and then see where you're at. Besides, it will also give you more time to get your other areas down pat for *gasps* more points.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Elisabeth are you worried about him reacting during obedience or worried about the traffic part?

Not sure if this is the norm but when Nikon did the BH, we did the obedience first and before we did the official pattern, the judge had us informally heel in figure 8s around two guys to make sure the dog was not going to snap.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> I would not go for it even though I am not sure if Stark is reactive in the first place. You and your dog need to function as ONE team that is out there to WIN and SHINE. If one part of the team does not trust the other part and worries about potential situation than what is the point? Test the lucky stars?


I agree with this. Especially when you figure in that the handler is going to be nervous on trial day, and that goes right down the leash and is going to magnify any weakness in the dog and certainly make a dog with any sort of reactivity issue far more on edge and thus likely to snap.

I don't know if anyone is ever 100% ready to trial. Dogs are dogs, not robots, so there is never any absolute certainty. And since it's pretty much impossible to replicate trial nerves in a training environment, no matter how many matches or mock trials there are, how that will affect dog and handler is always one of the biggest unknowns that you don't find out until trial day.

Realistically, 99% ready is probably about as good as it gets in most cases. Less than that even isn't necessarily cause to skip a trial, depending on what the goal is. The biggest factor in determining whether any deficiency is ok for trialing or should prevent trialing depends on what that deficiency is. Might sit crooked on a front, or lag on right turns, or even mess up and stand on a sit out of motion? If high points aren't a big deal, then sure go for it. No harm done there. 

But if the deficiency is something that is a potential safety issue, or an issue where it could seriously impact the other team on the field at the same time and cause them big problems or possible failure, then the responsible thing to do is to *not* trial until that issue is addressed.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

You also have the traffic portion to deal with.. How is he when a group of people move in close and surround him?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I will try to answer all of the questions asked in one post (if I miss one please bare with me).

Stark only reacts once in awhile. In four months time, he has reacted *maybe* four times.

When he reacts he only barks, never tries to bite any one or jump on them. If he is leashed then he does pull a bit/lunge but has never tried to "go after" someone. Actually, that isn't true, someone stepped over him in the hallway while he was in a down, came around the corner fast and stepped over him, he did jump up and bark at them and may have tried to snap but it happened too fast for me to know, but I do know that he didn't make contact. This was about 6 months ago?

He reacts when people stare at him and move into him. If you are approaching him and make eye contact then he *may* bark, rarely but it has happened before.

The majority of the time that he reacts is when we are in a tight space (hallway or elevator) and the person jumps back or shows fear (slinks away). If you confront him straight on with confidence or just ignore him, he is fine.

Is this dog reactive? Who knows, I consider him reactive because he does react under certain situations.

With age (and on going socialization and training) it has gotten soooo much better. I find myself forgetting he can be reactive now, which I never ever thought would happen.

In crowds he is fine. Amoung other dogs and groups of people, he is fine. Never has he had a reaction in a crowd or grouping.

I do not feel that he is a safety issue. The most he will do is bark. Once he greets the person he is barking at, he sniffs and is good to go. 

When I say I "re-direct" him, I mean I use my voice. I will say one of two things; either "YES!" for when he is calm and someone is approaching, or "that's good" when I see him kinda tensing up which my voice cue will usually break him out of it as he is looking for his reward once he ignores the person and gives me focus.

When he does react, I take him out of the situation immediately and then once he is calm (loose body, no tensesness) we go back and try it again. 

I have had other people handle him and he has not reacted with them, but then again, it is very sporatic as to when he reacts. 

I have trained with strangers on a strange field with him and went through the routine and he was fine. He has never reacted while we were training, but when we train out in public and someone walks by us in the field or park that looks nervous or scared of us, he will react. Obviously people on a schutzhund field are not going to show fear of a dog, so he hasn't reacted in that type of environment.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It sounds then like the obedience portion wouldn't be an issue. The temperament test might be, or might not. Especially since as you said, folks at a SchH trial aren't likely to show the sort of insecurity, or challenge, that seems to trigger him.

Have you tested him with the types of exercises often done during the temperament test of the BH.. having people crowd around him, being left in a crowd of strangers, etc..? If so, how has he done? If not, I'd say make a list of the most common BH temperament test exercises and try them all with Stark to see how he does, especially ones that might resemble situations that could make him react, and then decide about trialing.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I really don't want to sound rude, but it is late, I'm tired and I'll go directly to my point without to beat about the bush.

What is the whole idea of the BH? Isn't it to prove the dog is reliable and has a good temperament to be trained for SchH? Sorry, but for me "once in a while" is once a year, four times in the past four months is a lot, and if you have been training through this for months and months then something is wrong. Maybe it is the method, or maybe the dog. And I doubt it is the dog...

Even if Stark passes the BH and he is not reliable with strangers, and right now you are the one who is not trusting him, what would be the idea then?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Hopefully there are people that you train with that have some experience -ask them what their thoughts are-Personally this just seems like trying to train a dog over the internet and that just seems silly to me-they can actually see Stark and give you advise on whether to go for the BH-and if you are in the right club they won't want to set you up to fail-


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> It sounds then like the obedience portion wouldn't be an issue. The temperament test might be, or might not. Especially since as you said, folks at a SchH trial aren't likely to show the sort of insecurity, or challenge, that seems to trigger him.
> 
> Have you tested him with the types of exercises often done during the temperament test of the BH.. having people crowd around him, being left in a crowd of strangers, etc..? If so, how has he done? If not, I'd say make a list of the most common BH temperament test exercises and try them all with Stark to see how he does, especially ones that might resemble situations that could make him react, and then decide about trialing.


Jogger and biker approaching us - totally fine, totally ignored them.

Car, horn, motorcycle, beeping of trucks, etc. - totally fine, totally ignored them.

Approaching a stranger/stranger approaching - sat when told too, greeted nicely.

Left alone with people approaching - he just kept staring in the direction I went, kept looking around the people.

He did great with all of these things and we work on all of these thing every week/day just with our normal training anyways and with the lifestyle we have.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

holland said:


> Hopefully there are people that you train with that have some experience -ask them what their thoughts are-Personally this just seems like trying to train a dog over the internet and that just seems silly to me-they can actually see Stark and give you advise on whether to go for the BH-and if you are in the right club they won't want to set you up to fail-


I am currently with a few experienced people (who have 3's on multiple dogs) and with a few inexperienced people (like me..  ). Everyone is in agreement that Stark is ready to trial. They have also never seen him react. They have been to the places where he tends to react (hallways in my apartment) and he has never done it while they are there.

They believe Stark's reactions in the situations where he does react are normal behaviour for GSD's and that of a dog like a GSD living in the enviroment he does (apartment). They feel like he is just being protective of "his property" as he reacts in the building or on the property we live usually which is shared by hundreds of people (20 floor highrise building). 

I am not sure about that "answer" though.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Catu said:


> I really don't want to sound rude, but it is late, I'm tired and I'll go directly to my point without to beat about the bush.
> 
> What is the whole idea of the BH? Isn't it to prove the dog is reliable and has a good temperament to be trained for SchH? Sorry, but for me "once in a while" is once a year, four times in the past four months is a lot, and if you have been training through this for months and months then something is wrong. Maybe it is the method, or maybe the dog. And I doubt it is the dog...
> 
> Even if Stark passes the BH and he is not reliable with strangers, and right now you are the one who is not trusting him, what would be the idea then?


Catu, I wish you could see Stark react because it is hard to explain. I trust him with others, all he would do is bark; I have tested this more than enough times to know. 

He barks, sniffs and then is totally fine and ignores the person or if the person is willing, will bring the ball to them and play fetch. He will not cuddle with a stranger (although tonight he met a forum member and probably would of went home with her hubby as he was lovin' on him). 

I really don't know if it is a temperament thing, a training thing, an age thing or what. Because he doesn't do it all the time, or in the situations I think it would be expected it is hard to say what the heck it is, if it isn't him being reactive.

It's hard to explain over the internet, especially since I lack the knowledge at this point in time to explain it properly.

He has never reacted in a crowd or in a group, usually it is when someone either jumps away from him or shows fear (slinks by him, runs from him (this has happened more times than I can count) or tries to get away from him by showing fear).

I understand what you are saying, I do.

I guess I want to take it to see if Stark can pass it, if it is just a training/age issue or if it is a true temperament issue. I am assuming that this test would be a tell-all of sorts I guess, which it might or might not be.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> They believe Stark's reactions in the situations where he does react are normal behaviour for GSD's and that of a dog like a GSD living in the enviroment he does (apartment). They feel like he is just being protective of "his property" as he reacts in the building or on the property we live usually which is shared by hundreds of people (20 floor highrise building).
> 
> I am not sure about that "answer" though.


I'm not into making excuses for bad, potentially dangerous, behavior and that's what this answer strikes me as. A stable, well behaved dog is not going to be doing the things you say he is doing. I don't know if this is a temperament issue or a training issue, but it is an issue that needs to be addressed.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Elaine, I agree.

I said, "THEY" say this. Not me. 

I don't know what it is and it IS being addressed - has been for quite some time. No worries.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I don't know what it is and it IS being addressed - has been for quite some time. No worries.


 Maybe, this is the problem. 1.5 years out of 2 fixing something that hasn't been identified...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> Maybe, this is the problem. 1.5 years out of 2 fixing something that hasn't been identified...


How do you identify it then?

Trainers after trainers, behaviourist, vets, schH competetors, agility instructors all don't think there is an issue and yet he still reacts in certin situations.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Elizabeth, this is the wrong topic for this discussion but I do believe that sometimes there is no issue but there is an 'early intervention' that creates an issue. I find it puzzling that absolutely all trainers from different backgrounds who interacted with Stark didn't see any issues.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Oksana, do you mind if I PM you to discuss this further. I would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts on this. Tomorrow perhaps? I am headed off to bed but would very much like to talk in more depth about this.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Ok


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with the dog. Most of the problem is coming down the leash.

Probably is a LITTLE suspicious but there are people out there who prefer that in a dog......not a bad thing for a GSD

Just work the pieces of the bh that you are concerned with....he well get through it no problem.

In the end you did buy a GSD they arnt supposed to be like a poodle. I would be much more concerned if my dog runs up to everyone and wants them to pet him......that would REALLY upset me. Countering someone who is eyeballong hard...."good boy"....just kidding...so dont do that. (for me I like it)

If I lived in a 20 story high rise I would be suspicious as ****....I think he is probably a good dog.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Big gamble to just roll the dice and hope for the best. USA as well as other clubs are getting very tough on dog/dog and dog/people aggression. Happens enough in USA and not only the dog gets suspended but so can you. 

Nothing is ever 100% when it comes to dog training but if you're this worried about it there is a reason.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Sorry, but for me "once in a while" is once a year, four times in the past four months is a lot,


That is a lot. From that standpoint I'd keep training a little longer... :help:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Without ever having met you and Stark (hopefully that will change soon)....I think that this may be a problem in your head. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but that it might be something that is being prompted by your insecurity and/or body language and he is reading that. I don't think that he's an out of control liability that will never title, but I do think like several others are getting at it is something that *you* will need to work through before going out to trial. It's bad enough to step out on to the trial field feeling pumped up and prepared and then have your dog humble you by doing crap he's never done before, let alone go out for the first time already feeling unsure of how the dog will act. I don't think it's the reactivity that's the problem but being unsure and not trusting, if that makes sense? I mean, all the time I see/hear people boast and joke about how their dog is so "real" and a "man eater" and "hey, don't touch my dog, he'll git you!!!" and yet these dogs (many of which ARE overly sharp, IMO) go out and trial just fine, but their handlers have this confidence that must somehow project onto the dog and keep the suspicion at bay. I was visiting another club once and stepped up to help be in the group and when this dog was coming through the handler told us not to even look at the dog. Maybe the handler was exaggerating, maybe not, but the dog is SchH3.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Without ever having met you and Stark (hopefully that will change soon)....I think that this may be a problem in your head. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but that it might be something that is being prompted by your insecurity and/or body language and he is reading that. I don't think that he's an out of control liability that will never title, but I do think like several others are getting at it is something that *you* will need to work through before going out to trial. It's bad enough to step out on to the trial field feeling pumped up and prepared and then have your dog humble you by doing crap he's never done before, let alone go out for the first time already feeling unsure of how the dog will act. I don't think it's the reactivity that's the problem but being unsure and not trusting, if that makes sense? I mean, all the time I see/hear people boast and joke about how their dog is so "real" and a "man eater" and "hey, don't touch my dog, he'll git you!!!" and yet these dogs (many of which ARE overly sharp, IMO) go out and trial just fine, but their handlers have this confidence that must somehow project onto the dog and keep the suspicion at bay. I was visiting another club once and stepped up to help be in the group and when this dog was coming through the handler told us not to even look at the dog. Maybe the handler was exaggerating, maybe not, but the dog is SchH3.


Very true. Confidence plays a huge role in handling a dog. There are dogs out there that no other handler can touch or even handle and yet they went through the BH and got them titled or went to the nationals. 

I have the same problem. A dog that is ready but I am not. 

Work on yourself, gain confidence in what you do and once you are ready, do it!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Maybe the best way to gain confidence is to do it and from your initial post you sounded confident-So try it


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There is that long thread on aggression, maybe go read it.

I am not going to advise whether you should do it or not. That is up to you but what has been said about confidence is the truth. All GSDs function better under a confident handler. Most protective GSDs, especially when they are young dogs, will react to fear in a person. Dogs do not view that behavior as fear. Like I said in the other thread, sometimes, I use that body language as the helper, when I want to disturb a dog to get aggression and I am not talking about the slinking away stuff. I am talking about the tension in the body that all frightened people show. You have to look but if you look hard enough, you will see it. When you combine an unsure handler with a person behaving like that, yes, I would expect to see a response from the dog. The idea that a dog bred to protect should just ignore weird behavior in people is kind of silly if you ask me. 

I have owned and handled some pretty protective dogs. I titled them and I did it under judges who knew what kind of dog it was and pushed the matter in the trial. One judge, during the introduction, would not let go of my hand after he shook it. He was quite amused while he did this but he was also a judge who seemed to have an appreciation for the kind of dog that was. My dog didn't do anything. Why? Because he was working and I had made it clear to him that I didn't need his "help" during that phase of the trial. This idea of re-directing, I personally do not believe in. You either convey to the dog that you are the boss and you do the thinnin around here, or you live with what you think is unpredictable behavior but probably isn't. 

I have learned to look at the people just as hard as I look at how my dog is behaving. There are just so many who are sending the wrong signals to the dogs,( and I have seen plenty of them at SchH clubs), so, how many of those my young dogs see, makes a big difference. What also makes a difference is, again, me. My dogs can feel that I have the situation under control, there is no hesitation or insecurity in the way I handle them. The dogs can feel that...because they are GSDs.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Elizabeth, this is the wrong topic for this discussion but I do believe that sometimes there is no issue but there is an 'early intervention' that creates an issue


This too. When you make things a big deal, they tend to become one. I have an old friend who has bred and trained GSDs for over 50 years. Her most common comment is "leave the poor dog ALONE". I agree. Mostly, people need to work on themselves and be more aware of the situations they place their dog in. Like I have said before. People come here for dog training. I work on the dog for a couple of days and then I am there for WEEKS, working on the people.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Not hijacking this thread, but this has been a very helpful subject for me. I do believe that the issues with my dog come from my own insecurities which pass through the leash. A lot of my insecurities have come from people reacting to my dog when he has done nothing and I have corrected or over corrected for a slight infraction when he was young. Thanks all and good luck Elizabeth!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> The handler has about 90% to do with it IMO.


++. When I got my female back from a trainer (2 weeks helping me focus her) he said "She does the whole BH routine *great* for me.... lets see if she'll do it with you now."


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Funny story that is sort of related... 

This past weekend at our trial, we had a "drive-by schutzhund 1". Someone was rolling down I-95 having left a saturday trial where they failed to get SchH1 on their dog. They saw we were trialing sunday and stopped at our trial and she tried again. Put a SchH1 on the dog (barely, but I don't think she cared).

Try fail, and try again. We (dogs and people) learn best by making mistakes.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Do you think you're overly controlling Stark in certain situations based on assumptions you're making about unknown people/dogs that you're encountering, which might be sending a message to him?
Just throwing out guesses here based on what you've said and what I'm going through with Jax... my neighborhood is a very tight-knit, sue-happy community and my biggest fear is that someone will flip and complain... or worse... and not at all that he will bite someone. I'm 1,000% confident he'd never bite anyone because off leash, he either wants to meet someone, or he couldn't care less about them and goes on his merry way... hardly even a glance. When we meet the "pardon my dog, he's out of control but just wants to play" type people, I could almost kiss them... and Jax has no behavior issues whatsoever. It's the neatly preened "I can't believe she could allow such behavior to get so bad!" judgmental people (or those I perceive as judgmental) that freak me out and that's when I start to micro-manage.
I would love to know how I could get over this. It's really hard to stay relaxed and allow your dog to do his own thing when the other people clearly want nothing to do with it. 
Jax has no idea he's a big viscous psycho beast and when I'm forced to treat him a such around certain people, I think he reacts.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Why? Because he was working and I had made it clear to him that I didn't need his "help" during that phase of the trial. This idea of re-directing, I personally do not believe in. You either convey to the dog that you are the boss and you do the thinnin around here, or you live with what you think is unpredictable behavior but probably isn't.


Ditto this. While knowing what triggers the behaviour and what goes into the head of the dog, there is a point beyond the theory where it goes to a second place, I am with the leash on the hand and I don't care what is the cause, the dog is not allowed to do what he wants when he wants and that is. Period.

I don't know how you train, if you are purely positive or not, so don't take this personally, this is how I do. I confess I'm not that fond either of all that redirecting philosophy that is so into fashion in all the books people use to recommend and the aggression and reactivity threads in this forums. It may be that I am a bad dog trainer and I lack patience, I just don't see the point of spending months and months tolerating nonsense when_ all some _dogs need is knocking it off just once.

I don't say kick the dog ass every time he reacts, but for me, while Schutzhund is all about fun for the dog, to my pup at 9 months old to maintain focus is not an option long ago. To me it is not as much about the focus in heeling as the message he is receiving about what "obedience" means.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I think the difference is that people that advocate marker training, especially for reactive dogs, feel compassion towards the dog. At the end of the day, maybe beating your dogs ass for reacting will stop him from doing it again, BUT what have you really done? Imo, all this does is hurt your relationship with the dog.
It makes the dog realize that he'd better listen or else he's screwed. 
Personally, I'd rather not have a dog that listens because he's gonna get his ass kicked, but a dog that listens because he wants to have fun with me, or because he learned that the thing that previously frightened him, thus causing him to react, is actually nothing to be insecure about. I want my dog to have options, yet he the dog chooses the correct option because of the relationship established with me. I don't WANT to control my dog's entire being; I only provide structure because I have to.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

If I have read the OPs original post and subsequent it seems to me most of these events have occurred when away from the training field and that might be an indication of more her uncertainty of how to handle a situation that is transferred to the dog by actions on her part. It also means that she could do very well on the trial field or not. I also agree with Anne that we should project confidence in a situation for our dog to feed off of and it will know how to act in situations.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Tbarrios333 said:


> I think the difference is that people that advocate marker training, especially for reactive dogs, feel compassion towards the dog. At the end of the day, maybe beating your dogs ass for reacting will stop him from doing it again, BUT what have you really done? Imo, all this does is hurt your relationship with the dog.


No one here is telling anyone to beat their dog's ass. There comes a time in a dog's life when he is mature enough for the handler to say, "Hey, I am in charge here, I'm watching your back, don't worry about it." If the dog is doing Schutzhund in the first place he should 1) not need to literally have his ass kicked just to make this point and 2) not melt like butter because of it. As far as the relationship goes I think you have it backwards, I think that the *handler* needs to show the dog confidence and security in order for the relationship to blossom. Otherwise the dog feels he needs to constantly look out for himself, because his handler is projecting insecurity.

I've got a young dog that started up the usual immature phase of sounding off at other dogs. All it took was one quick session to deal with this issue. At the end of that session he was lying down quiet about three feet from another dog. Just the other day, we were playing and doing some informal obedience in our tiny front lawn when a neighbor walked by with two little dogs on flexi leads. Both dogs were barking and lunging all over, and zipped out their lines right up into my yard. My dog just stayed there in his platz. He was not showing any fear, any distrust in my judgment of commanding him to platz, not showing avoidance of me because of some perceived ass kicking. He just laid there with his tongue out and his ears relaxed, not having a care in the world, watching the dogs get yanked out of my yard. He just needed to learn that lesson that other dogs are just there, nothing to be afraid of, nothing to pick a fight with. I showed him that in a fair and crystal clear way and now we don't have this issue getting in between going out to train and have fun together.

In my opinion, showing compassion to our dogs also means stepping up to the plate and taking control. I can't expect my dog to want to mind me and even protect me when he doesn't realize that not everything is out to get him.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Conveying to the dog that obedience is not optional doesn't have much to do with "kicking their ass". It has to do with teaching obedience where the dog has respect for the handler. Without respect, you don't have much of "a relationship", or obedience for that matter. Leaving it up to the dog to decide how situations are to be dealt with, is simply a mistake with any dog , much less a GSD. I have years of experience dealing with people who have allowed that to go on. The one who pays for that, is the dog. People need to start living a bit more in reality when it comes to animals because the animals are paying for the ignorance in the people. There is a long thread on rescues and breeders in the Breeder's Chat Place of this board. People are there discussing the "over-population problem", where dogs are ending up in shelters. The reality of the situation is, people are giving up their pets because they don't have a clue how to manage, train or handle them. They are being guilted into using treats and tricks vs simply learning how to apply a firm, clear and effective correction. That correction can be anything from a verbal command to a collar correction but frankly, that has to happen in the life of a GSD once in a while, especially if he is protective. It is about sit is sit, not sit and growl, sit and be quiet until I tell you not to. Does that mean the dog is never praised or rewarded? No, but I bet that is what people pictured when they read that last sentence. Some uncaring brute "making" a dog do something he doesn't want to do. I have saved countless dogs from the shelter and the pink needle by simply teaching their owners first, about what a GSD is, second, how to handle them and last but not least, how to look at THEMSELVES for the solution to their dog's behavior. Now if we are talking about kicking the people's ass....that is another story entirely.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Anne^^. 

While I am all for positive training which works wonders for my marshmellow aussie the purely positive stuff has never worked for my gsd's. 

All of the gsd's I've had/have at one point or another needed some form of correction and they didn't fall apart when they got one. 

I screwed up when I got Masi and will admit it. Took her to a purely positive class (thought I'd try it), and it was the biggest mistake I made, very negative experiences for her and total chaos. Even the trainers dog was an idiot. At the 4th class, I had to practically drag her thru the door and went on the defensive. I yanked her out of it, but the damage was done. I was ending up with a reactive adolescent and losing confidence in my own abilities. 

Went to a koehler method trainer that I knew, (not a diehard but no treats/toy rewards) and she LOVED it, she was happy to go there, enjoyed the training. I was getting my confidence back in both myself and the dog. 

Having that confidence and trusting not only her but myself and RELAXING out in public, has resulted in a dog that can go anywhere/do anything and be fine with it.
No, she's no social butterfly and could care less about strangers, but that's fine by me.

I think for some, it's hard for them to pinpoint the 'why', and harder yet to admit it may be "ourselves", willing to try a different approach can make all the difference.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

It is SO NICE to see others echo that many times, all the dog needs is a few moments of "knock it off" training vs spending months, years, and wondering if your dog will ever stop being reactive. I have basically given up on the reactivity threads here because I seem to the only one that ever posts wondering if the OP has ever given the dog a correction for losing focus on the handler, and instead my post is followed by pages and pages of "don't correct or the dog will stop growling/barking and start biting with no warning."


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I actually got an impression based on OP's stories about Stark that there is no problem there with avoiding corrections. I think Stark is a wonderful dog that is a bit confused.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The idea is to teach obedience first and then introduce the dog to "distractions". It is not a case of telling the dog to leave it, or dangling a side of beef in their face to take their mind off what is stressing them. Once the dog is trained, it is a case of asking the dog to obey and when the dog does something, like sitting and growling when you told him to sit, he gets a correction for not sitting. Growling is not an included activity in the sit command.

This, in my experience, makes things quite clear to the dog and that is the point. The majority of the time, the dogs are trying to comply with what we are asking them to do. The problem is, people are too busy clouding the picture for the dog with vague commands, their out of control emotions and by asking a dog to deal with a distraction by being distracted by their handler..i.e. dangling food in their face or "re-directing", ( distracting), them. 

If you can keep things clear and simple and remain in control of your own emotions, the dog will be able to understand you better. Period.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Catu said:


> I don't know how you train, if you are purely positive or not, so don't take this personally, this is how I do. I confess I'm not that fond either of all that redirecting philosophy that is so into fashion in all the books people use to recommend and the aggression and reactivity threads in this forums. *It may be that I am a bad dog trainer and I lack patience, I just don't see the point of spending months and months tolerating nonsense when all some dogs need is knocking it off just once.*
> 
> *I don't say kick the dog ass every time he reacts,* but for me, while Schutzhund is all about fun for the dog, to my pup at 9 months old to maintain focus is not an option long ago. To me it is not as much about the focus in heeling as the message he is receiving about what "obedience" means.


That was in response to this. There was a possible allusion to an ass kicking if the dog did not do what was expected. 

I don't believe I have it backwards at all as I clearly understand that dogs need a pack structure and rules. My dogs know that I will protect them but that took TIME and consistency; I show them they can trust me through my actions. I did not demand that they trust me right now and i'm not saying that's what anyone is doing . (Must be politically correct)

I happen to disagree that dogs that are taught to think get into trouble. Obviously, i'm not saying that I won't teach them what I want. If you read the entire post I clearly stated that I DO provide structure. However, I am not about controlling everything about my dog. Despite the fact that I don't, I teach them how to do things the correct way. I don't baby my dogs and make goo goo ga ga sounds at them, or let them do whatever they want. My dogs are well behaved and never once have I had to raise my hand to them. However, if there is an incorrect choice and a correct choice, I can see that the dog is mulling this over in their head. If they make an incorrect choice, they suffer the consequences of their actions. If they make the right choice then they reap their rewards.

What I am seeing is a general call for cranking methods towards reactivity because of impatience and i'm here to say that it can do more harm than good is all. The "stupid" click and treat methods will and do work and be more beneficial to your relationship with your dog.
I also agree that there is a point when you can tell your dog to chill because you are in charge because I do this myself with my own dog. However, I don't accomplish this by yanking the prong when the dog sees a dog walking down the street because that will only make a negative association with an object even more negative. 

Marker training is also much more than dangling a piece of food in a dogs face. That is a bribe. The goal with a reactive dog is to regain its attention through your voice alone and then POOF you magically produce a reward.

I'm sure that this method doesn't work with certain kinds of dogs. I understand that. My dogs do in fact receive verbal corrections. What bothered me is that *impatience* seems to be one of the main reasons people dislike these methods and instead prefer instant gratification. 
Nothing worth it is ever easy. Just my .02.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Oh and sorry for the hijacking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Can you define a "reactive dog" and what that looks like during a BH?

What we are talking about here is that there may not be an issue with Stark at all, he may not be a "reactive dog". What he could be reacting to is the insecurity of the handler, so all the clicker training in the world is meaningless if the handler can't show the dog she is in control (and project through body language and other subtleties that she does feel in control).


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I'd like to know how many people with dogs that have never had issues have raised them in apartment buildings or houses where your front door opens up to a busy sidewalk?
I think the order of operations are a little different when one doesn't have the luxury of maintaining a 5 meter clearance from distractions until they feel their training can move further.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I imagine a reactive dog is a reactive dog no matter what he's doing. 
Elizabeth stated that Stark was tested during the traffic portion to see how he would do and it looks like everything checked out. No barking, lunging, growling, snarling at people or dogs. He just intently looked toward the direction she walked off in.
I am on the fence as to wether or not Stark is reactive. From what Elizabeth has told us, on occasion he will react to strangers that are acting in an odd manner. It may very well just be that Elizabeth is tensing up herself, thus causing Stark to feel as if he has react. Maybe Stark is extremely handler sensitive; something as subtle as a frown or the clenching of a fist can set him off.
It is not very hard for me to keep my emotions in check, especially anger. I think that is one reason my dogs trust me; I stay relaxed. For my SO, he will tense up and get frustrated easily and I see the difference in the dog's behavior right away; they get tense themselves and their whole demeanor changes.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Rerun said:


> It is SO NICE to see others echo that many times, all the dog needs is a few moments of "knock it off" training vs spending months, years, and wondering if your dog will ever stop being reactive. I have basically given up on the reactivity threads here because I seem to the only one that ever posts wondering if the OP has ever given the dog a correction for losing focus on the handler, and instead my post is followed by pages and pages of "don't correct or the dog will stop growling/barking and start biting with no warning."


There are some truly reactive dogs out there, but in my experience, most of them are just dogs with bad training and nothing an appropriate correction or two wouldn't deal with.

I don't do the reactive threads either as to me it's just an excuse for having a poorly behaved dog and refusing to do anything about it other than beg and bride it in the vain hope the dog will stop it.

The "don't correct or the dog will stop growling/barking and start biting with no warning" is another one of the most ridiculous thoughts out there. It's a relatively new thing too. When I began dog training a very long time ago, there weren't all these reactive dogs because no one put up with that behavior and corrected them so they knocked it off.


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## mikezirra (Feb 19, 2011)

Tbarrios333 said:


> I think the difference is that people that advocate marker training, especially for reactive dogs, feel compassion towards the dog. At the end of the day, maybe beating your dogs ass for reacting will stop him from doing it again, BUT what have you really done? Imo, all this does is hurt your relationship with the dog.
> It makes the dog realize that he'd better listen or else he's screwed.
> Personally, I'd rather not have a dog that listens because he's gonna get his ass kicked, but a dog that listens because he wants to have fun with me, or because he learned that the thing that previously frightened him, thus causing him to react, is actually nothing to be insecure about. I want my dog to have options, yet he the dog chooses the correct option because of the relationship established with me. I don't WANT to control my dog's entire being; I only provide structure because I have to.


I advocate marker training. Mark the dog with a firm "no," followed by a firm "kick-ass" correction and I bet he won't be lunging and barking randomly again when we are supposed to be heeling. 

People just don't want to correct their dogs. Then you have non-schutzhund people commenting on how dogs shouldn't be corrected through pressure, but that a dog should think for him/herself and choose to make the right choice through motivation without pressure. Sorry no. That may be fine as a pet dog, but not a competition dog. In competitive sports like schutzhund, a dog should never be thinking on its feet. The dog must only "do." Reliability comes through pressure. Else you are left with a dog that lunges and barks randomly and only heels when the dog feels like it. 

Instead of reinforcing the dogs bad behavior with "good" or "yes!" when he starts to tense up, which you admitted to, calling it "redirection"... replace it with a nice hard correction. There's a time for reward based motivation only, to send clear communication in the behavioral learning phase... but there is time when punishment is necessary to show the dog that we aren't asking, rather we are demanding.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

mikezirra said:


> In competitive sports like schutzhund, a dog should never be thinking on its feet. The dog must only "do."


 I hope such competition dogs get their people those desirable SchH3s but will never be bred.


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## mikezirra (Feb 19, 2011)

Yes because such vile dogs wouldn't have produced the dogs of today. Tell me, what is your dog and what is the pedigree? If its a noteworthy dog, you must hate the long list of vile dogs that it comes from. Nevermind. That would be off topic. Maybe someone can start a new topic explaining why a thinking dog is not capable of participating in a sport where it is told not to think just in this aspect of the dog's life. For example, my thinking dog knows that it ought not to think in schutzhund.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I just wanted to stop by and say that I am very thankful for all the responses and am going to read them all (and try to respond) throughtly tonight.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yeah, I keep forgetting that SchH is a sport that is about the trainers, not the dogs. Mikezirra, you are right, never mind.


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## mikezirra (Feb 19, 2011)

lol. is there no way to filter out certain posters in this section of the board, which would leave us with genuine posters who understand the sport OR those that wish to genuinely learn? isn't there some algorithm that instantly annihilates anthropomorphic posts?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just because a dog is being corrected does not mean he is not allowed to think. Quite the opposite IMO. The approach I use is to allow the dog to look at whatever it is that is bothering him. He can look but not act. I have a problem with the idea that the dog should look at the handler, or stare at a toy or piece of food.... and not be able to observe what is disturbing him. I am talking about working on this by placing the dog in the sit . As for heeling, when I get to that point, I might give a correction for the dog losing focus when he is passing something, but for me, there is a first things first attitude about this. When the dog is told to sit and is allowed to look at what bothers him, once he learns that sitting there results in nothing bad happening to him...(from the dog or person or whatever it is), he starts to gain confidence in the situation. On that note, it is very important that nothing bad DOES happen. So, if it is a dog, the other dog must be under control. If it is a person, that person should be neutral, not forcing himself on the dog, shoving treats at him etc. They should simply pretend the dog is not there. When everything is planned and under control, the handler feels more in control and the cycle is a positive one. As the dog becomes more comfortable, the situation can become a little more challenging but not so much that the dog starts to lose it. I find I do not have to give much of a correction at all in these situations, Just somewhat of a reminder with a calm sit command and if I use the collar, mostly, is more like a shake on the collar than a correction followed by another sit command in the same calm, relaxed voice. The sit command should not be a sharp command since that can load the dog. It is more like "siiiiittttt" in a lower, calm voice. That last part I think is really important. I think lots of people do not realize how disturbing their voice can be to their dogs and I have to constantly point it out because they just don't seem to notice when they are practically screaming at their dogs. Most people see the dog or person coming closer and their voice changes along with their demeanor. If you can keep your voice calm, you can usually keep your body from tensing up.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Tbarrios333 said:


> Catu said:
> 
> 
> > I don't say kick the dog ass every time he reacts,
> ...


The whole idea of the allusion was to avoid people like you jumping to the conclusion that everytime someone mentions the word "correction" it means a dog is beaten and hanged in the air with a prong.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let's please make sure we keep this discussion civil. Though tone at times is difficult to "read", certain words do make a post seem far more sarcastic or antagonistic than necessary. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

mikezirra said:


> lol. is there no way to filter out certain posters in this section of the board, which would leave us with genuine posters who understand the sport OR those that wish to genuinely learn? isn't there some algorithm that instantly annihilates anthropomorphic posts?


Thankfully no there's no way to filter out responses that don't agree or are disliked. Makes it so much easier to actually learn something when different ideas and viewpoints are presented.

Frankly, I think the idea that a dog can't be allowed to think in SchH, or any other sport, is hogwash. And certainly it is not what I expect of any correct GSD at any time. 

Ironic that such is the impression some get of an activity that was originally designed in large part to test the dogs' ability to think and process and respond accordingly. And in some ways, though not like it used to, still does. 

But then I guess I'm also just anthropomorphic and don't understand anything about SchH either. :shrug:

Back to helping Elisabeth and Stark.....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Come on Chris, they are just sporting equipment after all.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Indeed. 
Will be an interesting discussion I think, should anyone start it. For now I've got to go get some sporting equipment off the bed so we can get up bright and early tomorrow for some furry, four legged robot programming.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Make sure they track well on well laid tracks, then on to obedience with no reward, robotic style, then protection, and don't let them enjoy themselves...or their handlers either. For that matter, the helper shouldn't get any kicks from getting bit either. All in the name of being a good sport


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Catu said:


> The whole idea of the allusion was to avoid people like you jumping to the conclusion that everytime someone mentions the word "correction" it means a dog is beaten and hanged in the air with a prong.


Sorry I misunderstood. I took it to say that every once in a while a dog needs a butt kicking to get him/her in shape.

I don't think the word 'correction' means hanging a dog, but there have been other posts that do hint at the appropriateness of popping a dog for reactivity. I'm not against prong collars. I've seen how they can work to "agitate" a dog and build drive. However, when they are used to correct reactivity IMO it is misused.


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## mikezirra (Feb 19, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Indeed.
> Will be an interesting discussion I think, should anyone start it. For now I've got to go get some sporting equipment off the bed so we can get up bright and early tomorrow for some furry, four legged robot programming.


Most definitely. I would love to hear how schutzhund was created and does test the decision making process of the dog as opposed to testing the ability to work unconditionally with the handler and the capability to handle pressure. I want to believe dogs can learn without being conditioned.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> ......but there have been other posts that do hint at the appropriateness of popping a dog for reactivity. I'm not against prong collars. I've seen how they can work to "agitate" a dog and build drive. However, when they are used to correct reactivity IMO it is misused


I agree. You should not correct a dog for that, you should correct them for not being obedient and there IS a difference. If the dog is lunging and growling at another dog or a person, the correction, at that point, will many times make matters worse. It is a case of using obedience to keep the dog from escalating to that point, not using it to try to stop an already out of control situation. It is very difficult for a dog to learn when they are in that state of mind and most people cannot gain control with a pinch and they add fuel to the fire by trying.

Edited to add: The idea is to teach confidence using obedience, not simply using compulsion or treats or whatever, to compel or distract the dog.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am going to try and respond to each post, but my computer is not working and I am using my sister's so I have limited time to respond. Please bare with me.



mareg said:


> *problem is coming down the leash*.


I agree with this to an extent. I do have some anxiety, especially when we are in the building about him reacting. Since he has done it in the past, I am always super aware of his body language and try to re-direct his attention before I think he will react.

I do admitt to not trusting him totally (not about biting or attacking, as I know he would not do that unless warrented) but about barking or lunging.

I try very hard to relax myself and have been doing a better job of it and it has been working, but in some situations I still can be very tense and I know that feeds into Stark's reaction.



> *Probably is a LITTLE suspicious* but there are people out there who prefer that in a dog......not a bad thing for a GSD


Yes, he is very suspicious. He likes to watch everything going on around him, you can see him eyeball everyone and it's almost like he is trying to figure out what they are about. 

He is not a dog who I would coin "aggressive", he may look like he is when he is barking but it is just barking. I have had the opportunity to test him with someone he doesn't know, gave them direction on how to act to rise a reaction out of him and all he did was bark and when we approached the person he just sniffed and then ignored the other person, but he did keep his eye on him every once in awhile.



> Just work the pieces of the bh that you are concerned with....*he well get through it no problem.*


I know the obedience portion will go alright, I am confident it will. I of course have doubts as any first timer would. 



> *In the end you did buy a GSD* they arnt supposed to be like a poodle. I would be much more concerned if my dog runs up to everyone and wants them to pet him......that would REALLY upset me. Countering someone who is eyeballong hard...."good boy"....just kidding...so dont do that. (for me I like it)


I understand that. I have owned GSD's my whole life, was raised with them, watched my father and grandfather train them. I get that part, but I have never had a dog who would react like Stark does, so it seems very odd and out of character to me. Suspicious, yes, but react the way he does to people, no. 



> *If I lived in a 20 story high rise I would be suspicious as ****....I think he is probably a good dog.*


I think our living siutation just hightens the problem/issue. I don't think it is the cause but there are a few people who are terrified of dogs in the building and will show fear (literally RUN away from Stark or slink against the wall when he is no where near him) which is what causes the reaction usually. Because we run into these people on daily basis, his reaction may seem like a lot but when you realize how many people we come into contact with just by going potty, well.. not trying to make any excuses at all, just trying to provide presepective.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> That is a lot. From that standpoint I'd keep training a little longer... :help:


It does seem like a lot and I am not trying to make excuses but.. just to go potty we can come into contact with 50-60 people or more.

There are 2 highrise buildings in our complex, we live behind the biggest mall/bus terminal in the city and two schools just down the street from our apartment.

When you compare the amount of people he meets and sees to the amount of times he reacts, to me, it's actually not that bad - or at least it isn't as bad as it use to be.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Without ever having met you and Stark (hopefully that will change soon)....*I think that this may be a problem in your head*.


I agree to a point on this. I do know that I need to work on my anxiety about his reacting and I also need to trust him more.



> I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but that it might be something that is being prompted by your insecurity and/or body language and he is reading that.


I totally agree with this and have been working on this. I am learning to trust him and to relax more. 

Just today he was playing with a toddler on the playground at the park. She was running around, holding his leash, going down the slide with her, playing ball, she even was hanging all over him and he was totally fine. I was right there obviously but kept a distance (meaning I didn't intrupt their play unless I saw Stark getting too hyper or trying to herd her - which only happened once when she was running). I noticed he was much more relaxed and was totally having fun with his new friend. We even met another child on our way home and I made a mental note before we approached to let the leash go loose (but holding it) and to relax. Stark approached the other child and was very polite and interacted with him by giving a sniff and headbutt (asking for pets). I know before when kids were around (after a few incidents of him barking at them) I would tense up and if he even saw a child he would bark his head off. Now, he is totally at ease and can even enter the lobby with them in the hallways or elevator at ease.



> *I don't think that he's an out of control liability *that will never title, but I do think like several others are getting at it is something that *you* will need to work through before going out to trial.


I don't either. 

I do worry however that people will see him barking (or hear him, he's got that nice big loud, deep bark) and think that he is a liability or that he would "attack or bite".

I understand that I need more work than Stark and I am trying.



> I don't think it's the reactivity that's the problem but being unsure and not trusting, if that makes sense?


Yes, it makes total sense and I agree.



> I mean, all the time I see/hear people boast and joke about how their dog is so "real" and a "man eater" and "hey, don't touch my dog, he'll git you!!!" and yet these dogs (many of which ARE overly sharp, IMO) go out and trial just fine, but their handlers have this confidence that must somehow project onto the dog and keep the suspicion at bay.


I need more confidence in my handling, I agree. When I am on the field working with others I do feel like I have that confidence. Maybe it's because I know that if something goes wrong or if I have a question there are "experts" there to help or guide me but if I am alone, who do I turn too for help?

Stark has proven to me (and to those who know him and have seen him work) that he has the stuff to do it, that he does have a good temperament, because I believe he does. He is a great dog and as he gets older it is just getting better but I think my "unseness" or "confusion" has really travelled down the leash to him.

Okay, this thread has got me thinking a lot about what needs to happen and what I need to do.. wow.. a lot to absorb.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Vandal said:


> There is that long thread on aggression, maybe go read it.
> 
> I am not going to advise whether you should do it or not. That is up to you but what has been said about confidence is the truth. All GSDs function better under a confident handler. Most protective GSDs, especially when they are young dogs, will react to fear in a person. Dogs do not view that behavior as fear. Like I said in the other thread, sometimes, I use that body language as the helper, when I want to disturb a dog to get aggression and I am not talking about the slinking away stuff. I am talking about the tension in the body that all frightened people show. You have to look but if you look hard enough, you will see it. When you combine an unsure handler with a person behaving like that, yes, I would expect to see a response from the dog. The idea that a dog bred to protect should just ignore weird behavior in people is kind of silly if you ask me.
> 
> ...


This makes a lot of sense.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Vandal said:


> This too. When you make things a big deal, they tend to become one. I have an old friend who has bred and trained GSDs for over 50 years. Her most common comment is *"leave the poor dog ALONE"*. I agree. Mostly, people need to work on themselves and be more aware of the situations they place their dog in. Like I have said before. People come here for dog training. I work on the dog for a couple of days and then I am there for WEEKS, working on the people.


Funny that you should say this.

I was talking to my old TD/Decoy the other day about this very topic (and mentioned a few people's posts and what everyone was thinking regarding this topic) and he told me basically the same thing.

He thinks the problem is me.  Of course, right? Haha.

Having worked with Stark for almost a year and having seem him more than just on the training field, he thinks that I have created the problem and not Stark.

He seems to think that he reacted once or twice over something that he deemed justifiable (slinking away, one time someone rattling the fence and screaming at him while we had to walk by it (no way to get away)) and that I took that behaviour and marked Stark as reactive.

He thinks that I am "too controlling" when it comes to our training and that I am taking the "thinking" part away for Stark which is not only causing a frustration for him but also a "thing" to be unsure of which in turn causes the barking.

He also told me to "let it go", Stark barked. Yes, correct and move on. He thinks me using positive reinforcement for this behaviour is silly and that I should be correcting the barking or lunging because I did not give him permission too do so (he's very old school which is fine but I am not sure if that would help or hinder Stark). He also says that because Stark has proven he is not aggressive with people or children and can be around strangers and such or in large crowds (1000's of people) that he is not reactive, and that if he was he would be reacting every single time someone approached him. But because he is reacting when someone is showing physical signs of stress/nervousness that Stark is just playing off them and that he should be corrected for disobedience in these situations (walking is walking, etc. not barking time).


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> *Do you think you're overly controlling Stark in certain situations based on assumptions you're making about unknown people/dogs that you're encountering, which might be sending a message to him?*
> Just throwing out guesses here based on what you've said and what I'm going through with Jax... my neighborhood is a very tight-knit, sue-happy community and my biggest fear is that someone will flip and complain... or worse... and not at all that he will bite someone. I'm 1,000% confident he'd never bite anyone because off leash, he either wants to meet someone, or he couldn't care less about them and goes on his merry way... hardly even a glance. When we meet the "pardon my dog, he's out of control but just wants to play" type people, I could almost kiss them... and Jax has no behavior issues whatsoever. It's the neatly preened "I can't believe she could allow such behavior to get so bad!" judgmental people (or those I perceive as judgmental) that freak me out and that's when I start to micro-manage.
> I would love to know how I could get over this. It's really hard to stay relaxed and allow your dog to do his own thing when the other people clearly want nothing to do with it.
> Jax has no idea he's a big viscous psycho beast and when I'm forced to treat him a such around certain people, I think he reacts.


Yes.

I know I am and I have been working VERY hard to stop that.

It seems as though our situations are very similar and our thinking/behaviour is as well.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I actually got an impression based on OP's stories about Stark that there is no problem there with avoiding corrections. I think Stark is a wonderful dog that is a bit confused.


I am not a +R trainer. I use all sorts of ways to train and correct.

I do try to use +R first and then once the behaviour is set/understood and disobeyed I do use corrections.

No problems with corrections at all.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I like your trainer a lot 



> I am not a +R trainer. I use all sorts of ways to train and correct.
> 
> I do try to use +R first and then once the behaviour is set/understood and disobeyed I do use corrections.
> 
> No problems with corrections at all.


I think we work very much on the same way, that is way I wanted my post to be more rethorical than directed specifically at you and Stark


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, if I missed an important post or question or if someone would like something cleared up, please re-post if you don't mind. I am trying to answer everyone and give some more information in the limited time I have on here.

I just wanted to say THANK you to everyone who has posted - a lot to think about and a lot to work on.

I think everyone is very much right in their assumptions that I am the one needing the work the most, and I agree. I have noticed that when I am relaxed and calm so it Stark. He is semi-handler sensitive (during certin situations, protection he is very handler hard and yet during our obedience sessions will shut down if I correct unfairly).


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

You do have some DDR blood in your boy  
About your reaction and fears when you run into strangers. First, I would just stop interacting (kissing with kids, being petted by strangers, etc) for a week or two so you just out there with your dog minding your own business, training, and you know ahead of time that you won't have to worry about Stark/stranger interaction. 

Second, think what is the worst thing that can happen when you run into a stranger and your dog barks. He's under control, on a prong/jwhatever, he listens to you, he's handler sensitive, he won't get to the stranger and won't bite. Why worry? Can't you tell him in a boring voice 'Leave it', smile and say quick 'sorry' to the stranger', and continue with your business without even slowdown, just like nothing happened?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> > You do have some DDR blood in your boy
> > About your reaction and fears when you run into strangers. First, I would just stop interacting (kissing with kids, being petted by strangers, etc) for a week or two so you just out there with your dog minding your own business, training, and you know ahead of time that you won't have to worry about Stark/stranger interaction.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When my friend and I did our BHs we were not really as prepared as we could have been/should have been but wanted to get it out of the way and found a trial that was do-able for a group of four of us. Since our club is not really affiliated with anything we had to travel two states over just for a BH, totally unfamiliar field, very hot and humid (and two of the bitches in heat). Competition nerves are not new to me as I was a competitive gymnast and I have titled some dogs in a few other things already but this was my friend's first dog and first trial of any sort. When her turn came she just marched out there like she had the WUSV champion. She marched along with her head up whether her dog was heeling there or not, she was going to do that routine. Her dog ended up with the highest BH score and performed better that day than nine times out of ten I've seen him on our home training field. He sniffed around for a few second at the beginning and then it was like you could see him realize that she was NOT messing around and then he was like, let's do this thing.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Wow such a long discussion about a go, no/go decision! To me it is very simple, you need to trust the dog and trust yourself. If yes then go trial, if no then work on your confidence (find a better mentor).


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Haha, I think the question of should I trial or not kind of got side tracked (which is okay because there has been a lot of great advice/information that I needed to hear and consider).

I admitt, I don't trust my dog yet (my fault, I need to let things go and live in the now not the past) but I am working on it.

A lot of things to consider.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I admitt, I don't trust my dog yet (my fault, I need to let things go and live in the now not the past) but I am working on it.


There, you have the answer  Weird but I feel relieved. One thing though, do not dwell into too many details, just find a new mentor and move forward.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Packen said:


> There, you have the answer  Weird but I feel relieved. One thing though, do not dwell into too many details, just find a new mentor and move forward.


We are currently without a decoy/TD as our club dismembered when our decoy retired (due to health reasons). We have a few inexperienced members at the moment so I am basically working on my own with a little help from people at outside clubs. We are working on getting someone in this summer though because although we have the passion, dedication and motivation, we lack the experience.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I admitt, I don't trust my dog yet (my fault, I need to let things go and live in the now not the past) but I am working on it.


May I inquire as to why you don't trust Stark and what happened in the past that leads you not to trust Stark? If you don't want to share, I'll understand but it might help us help you get to the bottom of this issue.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

find out about the character of the littermates from the owners of the littermates.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

carmspack said:


> find out about the character of the littermates from the owners of the littermates.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I am in contact with several littermates on a regular basis as well as half siblings and no other dog has behavioural issues (other than the normal bratty behaviour like not listening).

I also have regular contact with his sire and dam and breeder.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

TitonsDad said:


> May I inquire as to why you don't trust Stark and what happened in the past that leads you not to trust Stark? If you don't want to share, I'll understand but it might help us help you get to the bottom of this issue.


I guess just him barking at people. He has never "done" anything that really makes me not trust him. 

I am paranoid that someone will assume the barking is aggressiveness and call AC on him or he will be deemed dangerous or something.

It really has nothing to do with Stark's (other than the barking) as to why I don't trust him. 

Oh boy, this is like a therapy session.. lol. 

There have been a few threads (you can probably pull them up from my older threads) about things that have happened in the building when he was younger that may make him nervous about the hallways (people yelling at him in the face, people slinking away or actually RUNNING away from him and yelling) but as far as him actually doing something, he hasn't really done anything other than bark and lunge (usually just bark).


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> With the lifestyle we lead, this isn't possible. We come into contact with people every single time we open our door. He very rarely is petted by strangers to be honest. He is however, in close contact with them because of where we live.


 I do not understand why it's impossible, though. You open the door, say Hi to whoever you meet, and move on. Being around people doesn't mean interaction with people. Unless, of course, it's your personality to stop and chat with everyone and try to make your dog a friend with everyone.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I do not understand why it's impossible, though. You open the door, say Hi to whoever you meet, and move on. Being around people doesn't mean interaction with people. Unless, of course, it's your personality to stop and chat with everyone and try to make your dog a friend with everyone.


Stark reacts when we are in close proximity as well usually, not when we are "making friends" or interacting with people.

Being in close proximity such as an elevator, hallway, lobby is when he usually reacts and that is what I meant by not being possible to not be around people.

I do enjoy stopping and chatting with people but Stark is not made to interact with them (usually sits at my side or is sniffing around).

I guess I misunderstood what you meant.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Not to thread-jack but I thought I'd share my small breakthrough with Jax this weekend 
I've decided to change my attitude... Since in my mind most of my neighbors think I just have a viscous psycho beast anyway, what difference does it make if they think I'm just an oblivious dog owner who has no respect for personal space? (I *do* have respect for people's personal space, but just for the sake of this experiment, I let that go). So I just did an experiment to see what happens if I spend an entire day not tightening the leash at all, just giving corrections and leaving the leash loose no matter what the outcome... and what a difference! Turns out he has way better manners than I've been giving him credit for 
One of the dogs he normally reacts to was coming towards us down the sidewalk and I put him in a 'sit' while they walked by, they sniffed and interacted a bit, when it was time for us to proceed, he didn't want to go, so instead of using the leash to drag him away, I dropped the leash and walked away and called him... He actually left the dog and came to me! Normally the second I'd try to pull him away, he'd start. 
Next came a 6 foot tall guy with a toddler on his shoulders, figured "meh, the kid is safe and the guy is pretty big, if Jax jumps on him, the guy probably won't be knocked down, he's pretty big"... Kept the leash loose... Nothing! 
This has been going on all weekend, just some small setbacks like the terrified people which I haven't been able to create a workaround for yet.


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