# when off leash



## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

I was wondering how I know if I can have Rex off leash on walks with me. He's 8 months now and listens to 90%... I can't fully trust him yet though! 

Where can I try to have him off leash and see how he would behave? I don't wanna try it on an open field because I'm afraid he's gonna take off








Maybe at the dog park when there's nobody there?! 

How do you really "train" to have him by your side at all times. Do you have to train a perfect heel and then you can try having him off leash? 
I do know some dogs who don't heel perfectly but are doing fine without leash... 
Is "come" maybe more important than "heel" when it comes to off leash...


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

My opinion I wouldn't he is to young
My B is 4 and I only have him off leash once and a great while 
too many good things out there to distract him 
especially if its a street near by


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

Come is DEFINITELY more important than heeling. If you're not sure how your boy would behave off-leash, get a long lead, 15 - 30 feet. Clip it onto him in an open field and drop the leash. That way, if he takes off, you can grab the leash, tell him "come" and reel him in (and reward him with treats and praise). 

Heeling and a reliable recall are totally different, imo. Heeling is useful if you're walking in crowds and need your dog close to you, or if you compete in dog sports, but not too much else. My pup knows heads-up, SchH style heeling but I rarely ever use it in real world situations. A reliable recall is useful all the time.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Is there a fenced in area (like a playground or ball field) where you can take him? If so then take him there with a bag full of REALLY yummy treats like real chicken or liver or steak. Run around and play with him and reward him every time he comes to you, watches you, etc. 

Recall is definitely more important than a heel in a play area. I also teach a stay close command for when my dogs are off leash and I need them to stay by my side (like another dog is passing, a squirrel is running around, etc.).


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Ruth how do you teach the "stay close?"


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

We taught my pup to have good off-leash recall when he was a baby by every time he would come to us, we would give him a treat and say "good with me" Now - if we are out in the woods and he's off leash (6 mos) he won't go far. If we need him back (due to another dog) we say "with me" and he comes as fast as he can! I think (I may be wrong), but in the beggining it's really all about word association & getting your pup to understand what you really mean by it. Don't set him up for failure. I would definently say use a long lead and see what he does with even that much freedom.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I would get a long line first, the longest you can get. I got a 50ft cord at wal-mart for $5 and I used it to make a tracking line, but you can tie it to his collar, head out to a field with lots of treats (cut up hot dogs work well). 

Let him explore and get to the end of the lead, call him/give him the command/or even use a whistle, give a tug on the lead and when he turns to come to you, encourage him even more and when he gets to you give him lots of treats & praise.

A solid recall takes lots of training.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Enclosed payground or any enclosed area (including gates!) where there are no distractions. Like Ruth and Virginia indicated focus more on strengthening the recall , though working on the heeling is great too.

The other command I would add in there is leave it command. If you want to have your dog out there off leash, it's good to be able to call them off of things you don't want them investigating or putting in their mouths.

In addtion to yummy treats, add a favorite fetch toy - a tug and/or a ball to play with and to use as an award. 

For the stay close command Ruth mentioned, I use "with me" when the dogs are off leash.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Your recall has better to be "cat, squirrel, dog" proof or else don't do it. And - per another thread that's going on about "friendly" dog - even if someday you have the dog completely under control, be sure to leash the dog when you are out and about.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I use long lines. I use 50 ft lines so there's little if any tension. 

I take my kids on hikes through the woods -- with all the critters and scents that woods entail -- and I let them wander away from me and have a good time. Then I call them back to me, reward them with high value treats, and send them off again. 

We do this over and over, til the kids realize that Come just means "check in" not "game over." 

Come is THE most important skill my kids know, followed closely by "Wait" (because a dog that won't come often will just stop and wait for you to catch up). 

Once I've done this over and over and over and over and over and over and over (and I'm also training in closed in areas like baseball fields as Ruth outlines), then I'll try offleash recalls in really distracting places like the woods. But I don't do that until my kids are out of their adolescent years.









98% trustworthy is a dog that can be lost, hit by a car, or killed by a mountain lion because he strayed too far away. Until you're positive he'll come back 100% of the time, he needs to be on a leash or a longline. Some dogs never graduate off the leash. It's ok. They're just lively, energetic curious dogs. When they're 10 or 12, they usually settle down and become reliable -- maybe


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks for all your replies! I think i'm gonna try the long leash for right now and then i'll see how he does on it... 

Right now, as soon as he sees kids or other dogs he would probably take off to play!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's your answer, "i can't fully trust him yet".
when he's trained enough to be off the leash
and he responds to your commands. if you think/know
your dog is going to take off then he can't be off lead.

if your dog park is fenced in then that's the place
to try off leash situations. definitely don't do any off leash work
untill your dog comes to you on command with distractions. 
you'll know when your dog is ready for off leash work.



> Originally Posted By: RexI was wondering how I know if I can have Rex off leash on walks with me. He's 8 months now and listens to 90%... I can't fully trust him yet though!


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm so frustrated right now... I just came back from the dog park and Rex DID NOT listen to me AT ALL! 

I had hotdogs with me, and he LOVES hot dogs but when I call him he doesn't even look at me. He doesn't give me ANY attention 'cause he is so excited to play with other dogs. And when he comes close to me and I wanna reward him with yummy treats he doesn't even want them... He has absolutely NO food/tay drive when there are other dogs around. 

What can I do?? 


Josie, who has been with me for not even one week listens better than Rex when we're out... At home Rex is AWESOME and listens very well- as long as we don't have visitors here


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your dog is 10 months old. i think he should have a
very good recall (with distractions) at this point.
work on his recall. with a leash on him stand 2 feet
in front of him and call him. at the same time you call him
pull him towards you. praise and treat him. after he gets
it at close range start to back up more. go to 4 feet away and do the same thing. only call him once and make him come to you.
after the 4 foot distance locks in add some more distance.

i would work on his recall without distractions in the begining.
i would add in the distractions slowly. when i trained at the dog park i stayed 30 or 40 feet away front the fenced in area and trained. as my dog got better at responding i moved closer to
the fenced in area. before entering the dog park to trained we trained along the fence. after that we moved inside the dog park to train. the best feeling is when your dog listens with all of those
all over him.

everything i teach my dog i do in sessions. we might have
10 sessions a day. each session is 5 to 10 minutes long.
we train indoors and outside. i teach one thing at a time.

when you give your dog hot dog treats i suggest
you cut a little peice off. take that peice and cut it
in half. i worried about my dog choking on the
hot dog peices that's why i cut the peices in half.


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, here is what happens if we face distractions. He would not stop barking because he would want to play with the other dogs. And he does NOT care about treats at that moment at all!! 
How can I praise him and do positive reinforcement when all he wants is play with other dogs, but no treats? 
What if he doesn't react to my "come" command? Pull him back with the long leash and praise him? (Although he really doesn't focus and me and i HAVE to pull him back with the leash?)
He usually keeps barking and doesn't even take the treat- he would just stare at the other dogs and bark because he wants to go play and he is SO excited.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you need to practice without distractions at first. Not at home (usually our dogs are angels at home) but a long line , somewhere else with no other distractions. (maybe a school yard on the wknd or when school is out?)


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Can you try a duck call or something? Ava is one that also gets zeroed in on what she wants. I tried this a couple times when she was totaly consumed about something. I'll tell you what, I had her attention! She wanted that thing more than anything else.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

A duck call is a great idea!!! I think I'm gonna have to get one of those....... Thanx Betsy (as usual)!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RexI was wondering how I know if I can have Rex off leash on walks with me. He's 8 months now and listens to 90%... I can't fully trust him yet though!
> 
> Where can I try to have him off leash and see how he would behave? I don't wanna try it on an open field because I'm afraid he's gonna take off
> 
> ...



LOL! I have the opposite problem!! My dog HATES leashes. He was raised & trained OFF LEAD.

Bring him somewhere fenced in.
Bring some treats.
Just let him go & say "come". Give him a treat hen he comes to you. That way he knows ITS A GREAT thing to be comming back to you!!!


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyCan you try a duck call or something? Ava is one that also gets zeroed in on what she wants. I tried this a couple times when she was totaly consumed about something. I'll tell you what, I had her attention! She wanted that thing more than anything else.


I can certainly try this! I usually whistle- very loud! But that only gets his attention at home...


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RexI was wondering how I know if I can have Rex off leash on walks with me. He's 8 months now and listens to 90%... I can't fully trust him yet though!
> ...


We'll that's the problem. He DOESN'T want treats! I can bring the best treats and he doesn't care about them... Sometimes he's still so distracted and wants to play that he even drops his hot dock out of his mouth on the ground and runs off playing. And there's also no toy he would do anything for


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I dont use the duck call very often, because I dont want to desensitize her to it......and whenever she comes to it I act like an idiot, jumping around......running, dancing, hotdogs.....etc.... Part of the reason it works is because of the novelty of it. Once the novelty wears off, well we arent there yet, hmm wonder about an elk call.......but it does get her full attention back on me long enough to issue a command.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RexWe'll that's the problem. He DOESN'T want treats! I can bring the best treats and he doesn't care about them... Sometimes he's still so distracted and wants to play that he even drops his hot dock out of his mouth on the ground and runs off playing. And there's also no toy he would do anything for


I think this may be where you need to start. If you dog doesn't want food, toys, or praise then you don't really have a whole lot to work with except for compulsion. I would try to see what you can do to make the food more motivating. I use hotdogs and Natural Balance Roll for a lot of my training, but not for anything difficult. Use people food. Hamburger, pot roast, cheese, steak, ham, pork roast. Ask the people I train with, if I have to work on something hard, we swing by McDonalds for a Plain double cheeseburger or a sausage McMuffin. No these things are not healthy...but my dog will do ANYTHING for them which gives me a good chance fo success. I would also make sure he's hungry. If I have a lot of training that I have to do with food I cut my dog's meals in half. I know that when I don't eat at all, I can go for awhile and not feel particularly hungry. But if I'm hungry and I have a small snack, then I feel ravenous. 

Start small. Ask for attention. If he can't even give you attention, then you certainly won't have any kind of reliable obedience. So go back like he's a puppy. 

Going to the dog park is probably beyond his threshold for learning right now. When i do things I try and start at home, then I go down the street, then I go to an empty field or people park, then maybe to a busy place. Dogs are super at specialization but generalization takes a lot of work.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Are you expecting to be able to walk him down the street off leash, or to be able to take him hiking in the woods? Are you expecting him to heel off leash or just for him to stay fairly close, come back when you call him, and not bolt? 

I'd definitely work on your recall, as others have suggested, with REALLY high value treats, and also try to get him interested in a toy - either a tug or chasing balls. We take our dogs to off leash parks every weekend and have since they were quite young (Keefer was a little over 4 months old, Halo was just 15 weeks old). Neither of them have a perfect heel, either on or off leash, but I don't expect them to even stay next to me in loose leash position, much less a perfect heel. We're there to PLAY! 

I also never walk them off leash around cars, we go to places where we're safely away from cars and roads, and only talk off the leash when we're out of the parking lot. But since we have the toys, they WANT to be with us. If you've got a dog who is conditioned to chase after a ball and bring it back, a dog who loves balls, then it pretty much doesn't matter what else is going on around them. My dogs have played ball next to a herd of cows, with barely a glance at them. We throw the ball, they bring it back, and we throw it again. 

Getting him to enjoy playing with you is something you can work on at home with low distractions first, and you can also work on your recall. Make it a game so it's always fun and rewarding to come to you. Then try it outside in your (hopefully fenced?) yard before attempting it at the park without other dogs around. Having a doggy buddy that stays close helps a lot too. As long as Keefer stayed near us and was reliable off leash we were pretty confident that we didn't have to worry about Halo running off either because she was going to stay close to him, and Keefer was the same way with Dena when he was a pup. Do you have any friends with nice dogs that he enjoys playing with that you can go to the park with?


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomAre you expecting to be able to walk him down the street off leash, or to be able to take him hiking in the woods? Are you expecting him to heel off leash or just for him to stay fairly close, come back when you call him, and not bolt?
> I don't expect them to even stay next to me in loose leash position, much less a perfect heel. We're there to PLAY!
> 
> Getting him to enjoy playing with you is something you can work on at home with low distractions first, and you can also work on your recall. Make it a game so it's always fun and rewarding to come to you. Then try it outside in your (hopefully fenced?) yard before attempting it at the park without other dogs around. Do you have any friends with nice dogs that he enjoys playing with that you can go to the park with?


I don't expect him to heel at the dog park. I see it like you, we're there to play- BUT I DO expect him to come when called, no matter if there are 20 dogs he can play with... 

The thing about playing with me is, he likes to chase other dogs and grab their necks. No ball or toy can replace that. When he sees another dog he wants to be with that dog! 

I do have a friend who has two dogs and they come when called. We are going to set up play dates and walks twice a week from now on and train together. Maybe that'll help... 

What I started at home now is calling Rex while he's playing with Josie- and it's working out good so far. He stops playing and comes to get his treat...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RexI don't expect him to heel at the dog park. I see it like you, we're there to play- BUT I DO expect him to come when called, no matter if there are 20 dogs he can play with...
> 
> The thing about playing with me is, he likes to chase other dogs and grab their necks. No ball or toy can replace that. When he sees another dog he wants to be with that dog!


Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure from your original post what your expectations were. I think that's totally reasonable, so it seems like what you need is definitely not to worry too much about working on heel, (I wouldn't even ask for a heel at the park because I know I'm not going to get one) but focus a lot on making it at least as fun to play with you as to play with the other dogs at the park. My dogs will often greet other dogs as they pass, but they really don't play with them. Keefer has very high prey drive, so he will sometimes accept a "chase me" invitation, but I can call him off. I usually let him chase for a minute if the other dog is clearly still having fun, but I stop it before he gets too worked up because I want to make sure he'll still listen to me. Is there any toy he's obsessed with around the house, when other dogs aren't around? That's where I would start, and then build on that. 



> Quote:I do have a friend who has two dogs and they come when called. We are going to set up play dates and walks twice a week from now on and train together. Maybe that'll help...
> 
> What I started at home now is calling Rex while he's playing with Josie- and it's working out good so far. He stops playing and comes to get his treat...


Calling him out of play with Josie and then rewarding him and releasing him back to play again is a great idea! We did that a lot in puppy classes. Our classes were almost entirely off leash, so we'd do a little work with the pups then send them to go play and then practice calling them back for a reward, and also going up to them, grabbing the collar and asking for a sit, then rewarding and releasing to go play. Do this a lot at home, then maybe try it with your friend's dogs, especially if he already knows them, so they're fun, but maybe not as exciting as a dog he's never met before. Training around the distraction of other dogs is great practice. When we go to the park the dogs have to sit (or down, whatever we ask for) until released or we don't throw the toy. What's funny is that people are always impressed by this, but if you've got a dog that's crazy for a toy, it's actually the easiest thing in the world to teach. They pick up very fast how to "make" you play by following the rules.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a video of my dogs at the park from a few weeks ago: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1326377&page=6#Post1326377

You can see how focused they are on the toys, and on my hubby who was the one throwing them. At one point he's practically tripping over Halo because she was so close in front of him. That's less about having a perfect recall (which is still very important to work on) than it is about the dogs knowing that we're the ones that make the fun stuff happen.


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

There's really no toy he's crazy about at home







He does like his kong with peanut butter filling, etc. But is it better than playing with other dogs- I don't think so









Well, actually outside he has a soccer ball that he really likes and carries around in the yard all the time- so that might be worth a try?!


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomHere's a video of my dogs at the park from a few weeks ago: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1326377&page=6#Post1326377
> 
> You can see how focused they are on the toys, and on my hubby who was the one throwing them. At one point he's practically tripping over Halo because she was so close in front of him. That's less about having a perfect recall (which is still very important to work on) than it is about the dogs knowing that we're the ones that make the fun stuff happen.


Oh my, I'm jealous!! How do you teach them to focus on you like that? Where did you get that toy? (The blue ball with the rope) 
If I would do that with Rex and Josie, Josie would probably try to play fetch and all Rex would do is "attack" her and grab her neck while she tries to get the ball back to me- that's what he always does!







So playing with both dogs at the same time is really hard...


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Both dogs at the same time can be hard. I should get a video of Cade with Anka. Cade's about the same age as your Rex. And when I have a ball or a toy he likes to redirect his excitement onto Anka...which involves biting, chewing, jumping, humping, etc. I spent a lot of time establishing the habit in Cade to bring back toys and play with Mom on his own. I ask for obedience from both before I will throw the toy, and it helps that Anka is very solidly trained to bring it back. I discourage the behavior and reinforce what I want. It just takes time and redirection.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RexWell, actually outside he has a soccer ball that he really likes and carries around in the yard all the time- so that might be worth a try?!


Absolutely, I'd definitely bring it with you. Do you kick it around for him or throw it for him to chase after? Try to figure out a way to play with the ball WITH him, starting at home first, but the fact that he at least likes to carry it around is a good start. 

Most of the focus at the park is directly due to their obsession with toys. They're also very competitive with each other, so they're all about getting the toy first or taking it away from the other dog, which makes the whole game that much more fun for them. But I've also done a LOT of focus work around the house, starting from the time they were young puppies. I rewarded eye contact heavily so that finally they'd lay on the floor staring a me for hours while we watched TV in the evening if I tossed them a treat occasionally. When I first bring home a new puppy I wear my treat bag from the time I get home from work until bedtime, and I mark (sometimes with a clicker, sometimes verbally - "Yes!") and reward everything I like and want to reinforce. I also taught them to look at me on cue to the "watch" command", but I don't want them to only look at me when I tell them to, I want a strong foundation of attention, what they referred to in our classes as the "auto-watch". And I'll occasionally say their name and when the head whips around to look at me I click and treat. 

I play recall games around the house by tossing a treat across the room and as soon as they get to it I call their name and "come!", marking the exact second of the whiplash turn, and then they get another treat when they come running back, and I toss a treat again. To make it even more fun I'll toss a treat on the floor and tell them to "find it" and then I'll run to another room in the house, calling them. When they get there they get tons of praise, I mark and treat and throw another treat on the floor and run away again. Rinse and repeat until you're both panting. I've never had a dog not LOVE to play this game. Try it in the house first and then outside in the yard. I want my dogs to learn how much fun it is to chase ME, not how fun it is for me to chase THEM or to play keep away. I also expect them to sit with eye contact until released for all kinds of things around the house, including waiting to eat meals with their food bowl on the floor. 



> Originally Posted By: RexIf I would do that with Rex and Josie, Josie would probably try to play fetch and all Rex would do is "attack" her and grab her neck while she tries to get the ball back to me- that's what he always does!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe you didn't notice my dogs doing that too, lol! With the bigger toys they can both grab it at the same time, but with tennis balls if Keefer got it first Halo would grab him by the neck and he had to drag her back by her teeth. She was relentless!










Now he mostly lets her get the tennis balls.







But I don't see anything wrong with that if you're just wanting to be able to take them to the park for play and exercise and know that they'll stick close and not run off, especially if they're used to playing like that and they both enjoy it. If it bugs you, do what JKlasky suggests.

The blue ball that we had is a Jolly Ball: http://www.amazon.com/Romp-Roll-Ball-Dog-Toy/dp/B0006N9K9S They come in different sizes, and some big chain pet supply stores have them, I think we bought ours at PetSmart or Petco.


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## Rex (Mar 30, 2009)

I might have found something Rex really likes!! I was in the backyard with Rex and Josie and Rex kept walking around his basketball. So I picked up the ball and started running away with it and then throw it for him, etc. We played for 30 Minutes and I've been throwing the tennis ball for Josie, and Rex stayed focused on me/the basketball in my hand! I'm really excited 'cause he didn't even try to chase Josie. He kept playing with ME and the basketball. 

Every couple of minutes I would stop playing, call both, praise them, give a treat and then keep playing. First working session was great so I'm gonna play this game every day now and next week I wanna try to go to an open field with the long leash (50ft) and keep working with a bigger space and a new area... And then maybe with my friend's dogs in the backyard, etc. ... 

Not that I wanna take a basketball everywhere I go but I guess it's a start









I might get the Jolly Ball and see if he likes that as well... It would be easier to carry around with me


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yahoo!!!


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