# Listen to me?!



## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

I feel like a failure. Five and a half months ago I got a cute little fluffball and he followed me everywhere. Potty trained now, also in our second puppy course, he has regressed from my puppy who listened to everything to bot having any recall or anything. I tried weaning him off the treats and ball when training and I've had nothing but failure. He won't even make eye contact when training. Help. The "trainer" in the class only has me and one other GSD and he does pretty well in class with treats but at home I'm awful at being able to help him listen. Is he just in his butthole stage or am I doing something completely wrong? Last month he had down:
Sit, down, stay, wait, shake, come, bring it, drop it, up, army crawl, leave it, high five. 
Now he's got ... Sit. 

I don't understand what I'm doing wrong here. I tried a prong collar and he responds ok to that in public but not at home. I am mystified. :banghead:

*-*Summer*-*


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## Mala (Feb 12, 2014)

He's probably going through his teen stage. How old is he? Treats and ball shouldn't be taken away completely. He should always have something he wants to work for. Be consistent and keep working at it. Add the treats back in. He's also acting the way he does because he knows he can get away with it


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## Melissa98409 (Jun 17, 2013)

You are not alone. My little man just turned a year old. He too has gone through the sudden loss of memory. I would tell him to sit or down and he would look at me like it was the first time he had heard the words. He has separation anxiety, so recall was never really an issue, but lately, as he gains his confidence he is blowing off the come command. We are in Agility training and he gets the zoomies something terrible. When we are working on our own, he's perfect, but give the guy an audience and he becomes this big show off. It's annoying. 

I would say to keep steady on your training and not give up the treats. Keep the treats going until he regains his memory. Then back off the treats. Like giving him a treat for every third sit so he's not sure when a treat will come. Make him work for absolutely everything. Work to play, work to eat, work to go in the car. Make nothing free. Eventually, he will come around again.

Jericho is still on the prong collar. I've been trying to get away from it, but he's such a better dog on it that I'm not sure he will ever get off it. LOL 

Anyway-that's my two cents.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

He's seven months but is almost 70 lbs. This is a problem. I'm 4'11 and weigh 95. I think maybe I should train him the way I "train" my three boys. The "get my bluff in early" method. Lol 

*-*Summer*-*


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

Mine went though that phase for a bit. I do positive reinforcement so mine is treat trained and when he hit the phase you were talking about, didn't want to do anything either. Since I knew that most of the time he wouldn't want to listen, I made sure he worked extra hard for the things he really wanted. Where he used to just have to sit and wait for his breakfast, he now had to sit down sit down high five 20 second stay wave down and then get his food. Same thing went for walks, play, entering the dog park, etc. It definitely was not the most productive phase. He didn't learn anything new. But keeping the practice to things he really wanted for a week or two and then asking again in situations where he may not want to do it (waiting in line at the store) seemed to help sort of charge the commands and remind him that they were worth listening to. It also helps with the treat reliance. The only time he really worked for food in that process was when he wanted a meal, everything else was just life rewards. I'm not an expert trainer or anything, mostly just sharing what worked for me in a similar phase


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

*-*Summer*-*


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

I think it's just brat stage! Our boy is 11 months and I feel your pain... I feel like I must be doing something wrong but I know they all go through this! 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I never had this stage happen to me with my dogs because there were unpleasant consequences for failure to comply with known behaviors...strange...


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Butt head stage for sure! Just keep being consistent with your training. Don't, say, get frustrated you start changing commands because you think he wont listen....  guilty.. lol it doesn't work.. lol. (not that you're doing that, but consistency was a big lesson I learned the hard way)

Also, keep treats and rewards. Obviously you should still be able to ask him to do something and him do it regardless.. but especially in the beginning puppy life, treating for everything is important (or toy reward) Titan is 4 yrs and I still bring out treats/ball for training time. Even when we are just playing fetch for fun, I sometimes treat for good behavior. So I wouldn't wean him off completely.


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

Yes, on the first day of working with him, I asked mine to sit for his precious squeaky ball and he decided to just look at me like I was stupid. The look on his face when it was put up on a high shelf and left there while I went to read a book was priceless! Same for his breakfast that ended up getting poured back in the bag when he barked instead of doing a down. He bucked up real quick


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

make sure when you are trying to address/command him you use the confident tone that conveys you expect him to obey, even if he's been ignoring you for the last 5 minutes. make sure your voice doesn't begin to convey a question or a hope. you change him, he doesn't change you (during training I mean, they obviously change our lives). he'll go through ups and downs and moods so always try to keep yourself the baseline that doesn't get moved up or down with him.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I never had this stage happen to me with my dogs because there were unpleasant consequences for failure to comply with known behaviors...strange...


Lol I was about to post this. I've never had this butt head stage. It's more like a lack of training and direction stage. 

If the pup isn't paying attention to you I would stop with the training for a bit and just play with the dog. You have to be fun. If the dog is having fun while engaging with you then it's not training to him, it's a game and he'll want to play. 

Sure sometimes my pup will push his limits but he's more engaged with me and listens better at 11 months then he was as a pup.


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

What a beautiful pup! Stop the formal training for now. Get back on a path of communication with your pup first. Make everything exciting you do with him, not like training, more like having a blast! Then you can slip in a few commands here and there, but it ALL has to be upbeat, and FUN!!!!! I believe he will come around very quickly when he realizes it going to be exciting. I don't believe any of this teenager stuff, that's just equating problems with a human age- puppies just want to be stimulated and if no better word can be used, have FUN!!!!!! IMHO, Bob


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I would keep using treats and add a clicker. As he knew these commands before and now chooses to pretend he doesn't, the clicker at the right moment helps mark the behavior you are asking for. Nothing in life is free. Make him work for everything. Sit and wait before eating a meal, sit and wait before going outside. When training and you get the behavior you asked for click and treat immediately. Praise highly for quicker reactions and eventually only praise for quick responses. Also, change up the reward will help too. Try making some liver in your microwave - only takes a minute on each side but be sure to sop off the excess liquid, or try cheese or hotdogs. Whatever makes him drool most is the one you are looking for. Some dogs work for toys, especially if they have very high prey drive, skineez are great (the unstuffed toys) because you can stuff them in your pocket. The main thing is to always end training on a positive note and make sure play time comes after training. I also don't feed my dogs prior to training. A hungry dog will work for treats. Good luck in making it through this stage. It doesn't last forever.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The way I'd approach it is from 8 weeks to about 5-7 months depending on the dog everything happens motivationally. Obedience isnt true obedience everything is done under the context of a game and failure isnt punished except by no reward. For in the home or crate anything behavior wise I see I dont like Ill intervene, but most of it is management.

We wouldnt go on walks or practice activities thay arent centered around the interaction between me and the puppy. I want that puppy following me around staring at me wondering what we are going to do next and when I cant do this the dog is in the crate so he cant learn unwanted behaviors. All food is given as +R for behaviors and engagement I want. Up to this point the dog will have never seen a food bowl. Id teach games like tug or retrieves during this phase.

When the pup is 6-7 months old things change. Rewards are coming less freqently and negative reinforcement gets layered over existing behaviors. You did it before because you got something for it and now youre doing it because if you dont it is unplesant. Toy and food rewards still happen to keep it fun and lessen the stress during the learning to cope with pressure period. After I am sure the dog knows the behavior and has it generalized the teaching stops. Non compliance gets punishment. Rewards come mostly in the form of play but sometimes food but on a random schedule of reinforcement.


Dont stop training that is not the solution. The answer is to stop training badly.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Summer - I don't buy into the 'butt head' stage. I do think there is a point where your pup says, "This just isn't fun anymore. Not enough in it for me." This point can really come at any time during your training. 

We (us humans) get so caught up in wanting our dogs to be great. Especially when we are working in a class and we (us humans) start to compare ourselfs with others in the class. We (us humans) start feeling pressure and end up sending that same pressure down to our dogs. But, unlike us humans our dogs don't get all nervous about it, they just shut down. They can't find our 'like' button, so they just don't try at all. 

So, you have a choice. You can go with door number 1 - using the same sort of methods that Pyrate's Mom suggested. Getting sorted with some new high value treats. Start (again) making training fun. Remind pup that all good things come from you. Throw over staged parties when the pup is right. Shake off your expectations of where you think your pup should be and remember that your pup is exactlly where you've brought it up to. You need to raise YOUR bar!

Or..door #2 - start correcting until you find the desired behavior your looking for.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Baillif said:


> The way I'd approach it is from 8 weeks to about 5-7 months depending on the dog everything happens motivationally. Obedience isnt true obedience everything is done under the context of a game and failure isnt punished except by no reward. For in the home or crate anything behavior wise I see I dont like Ill intervene, but most of it is management.
> 
> We wouldnt go on walks or practice activities thay arent centered around the interaction between me and the puppy. I want that puppy following me around staring at me wondering what we are going to do next and when I cant do this the dog is in the crate so he cant learn unwanted behaviors. All food is given as +R for behaviors and engagement I want. Up to this point the dog will have never seen a food bowl. Id teach games like tug or retrieves during this phase.
> 
> ...


Best advice ever!


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Baillif said:


> The way I'd approach it is from 8 weeks to about 5-7 months depending on the dog everything happens motivationally. Obedience isnt true obedience everything is done under the context of a game and failure isnt punished except by no reward. For in the home or crate anything behavior wise I see I dont like Ill intervene, but most of it is management.
> 
> We wouldnt go on walks or practice activities thay arent centered around the interaction between me and the puppy. I want that puppy following me around staring at me wondering what we are going to do next and when I cant do this the dog is in the crate so he cant learn unwanted behaviors. All food is given as +R for behaviors and engagement I want. Up to this point the dog will have never seen a food bowl. Id teach games like tug or retrieves during this phase.
> 
> ...


I agree... positive and negative reinforcement both have a use in my opinion. Maybe brat stage isnt the "right" word for it... but I do think the training needs to change along with the dog, and this is probably the age where they start getting bored with it and pushing boundaries. 

Bailiff --- what is your recommendation for the OP then, or anyone who hasn't been doing this from the beginning?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It depends on the age of the dog. A NILF approach wouldnt be a bad idea no matter what age the dog is.

If its already a 6-7 month old and if you let him go hungry for a day and he performs behaviors for you when he knows you have food on you but blows you off under distraction start layering negative reinforcement over everything with a prong collar. Make sure you get help from a professional trainer, ideally a sport competitor not some ham fisted idiot.
You can reward every 3 reps or so at first duing that learning stage.

When you first start layering negative reinforcement over even already known +r behaviors there is a period of confusion. Theyre like what the **** is this? Some dogs start resisting it and of course you have to stick it out until you get the behavior you want before you stop the pressure because if you dont the dog learns resisting you is the key to escaping pressure and not the performance of the behavior you want. You reward after the dog escapes pressure to 1 show the dog the contrast between doing the behavior and not doing it. Doing it yields clearly favorable results for the dog. 2 to keep training about fun and 3. Blow stress off the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really don't see a butt-head stage so much, but I read a lot about it.

That being said, I disagree about the treats not being weaned away. We should not be walking through life with a carpenter bag on holding our treats like a seaworld trainer. That's insane. 

Even in human psychology, people work better if they are not treated every single time, if they rewards are intermittent. 

For dogs we take them through puppy and maybe a basic six week course but then treats should be phased out. Give a treat every second or third time, or for the best sit and the quickest come. 

I also do not think you should take a break. Maybe a week, but if you have a bad training day, your dog has a bad day. lf you have two bad training days than go backwards, and retrain. Stay patient, stay consistent, and he will move through this. 

If you have him off lead and he does not come, than go get him, bring him to where he needs to be. Always follow through on commands. Always. Do not give a command that you cannot enforce and do not allow the game of chase to become a reward for not coming. Never, ever punish a dog after he has come to you.

If you cannot enforce it immediately do not give the command. Figure another method of getting the dog to do what you need him to do. For example, if he is going into the road. Call his name, Rufus! then start digging in your pocket like you have a treat. or start running in the opposite direction. Saying COME, might bring him to you, but if it doesn't he has effectively learned that that is an optional command. The moment a dog starts failing to follow known commands, EVERYTHING is on leash. We back up, we do sits and downs, and we give a command and then if it is not complied with, we help the dog get into position. Do not repeat commands. That is nagging and also teaches the dog that he doesn't have to listen until you have the I-AM-GOING-TO-MURDER-YOU tone going. 

Start training with something fun, end training with something he does good so you can praise him. Only do things three times and then move on. Keep him thinking, keep it fun. But do not keep stuffing him with treats. 

Dogs shouldn't work for treats. Dogs eat and sleep under your roof, they should do what you tell them to. They go for walks, when there is something in the dinner preparation that is good for dogs, they may get lucky. But we should not train them that they should expect a cookie every time the sit when we tell them to. 

We use treats to load the praise words so that we can mark correct behavior with praise -- not treats. Treats give us a jump start. They load the clicker so to speak. Praise is the best reward. It is free, it can be played like a piano -- loud, soft, excited, minimal, etc. You cannot run out of it, and if you work it right dogs go crazy for praise.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

I have a LOT of work to do.

*-*Summer*-*


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The work never ends and the training never stops. Thats what a lot of people don't get. Most people think they can take a dog to us for board and train and come back to a dog that obeys every command every time without them having to work for it and of course that isn't the case. Dogs aren't robots. If you could just train the behaviors and get 100% reliability then there would be no point to dog sport competitions as we would all get perfect scores.

In the end the behavior the dog displays reflects the consistency of the trainer. Training is a lot like working out. The dogs behaviors get stronger with practice but if you don't practice behaviors they atrophy to the point you lose them.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Honestly the only commands you need consistently are recall and sit. 

I'm of the opinion that if you have to correct the dog every 2-3 times then you should take a step back and rethink how you train. I never corrected my dog for not sitting. If he doesn't want to sit then I need to find a way to make him WANT to sit. The only time i corrected was when there was a competing motivator like another dog. My dog wants to sit but he wants to greet the other dog more. Then I would correct and make him know sit means sit. But if the dog isn't doing a command consistently then the dog clearly doesn't want to. 

Imo if you have to make a dog do something it's never going to be as reliable than a dog that wants to and is motivated to do it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

SummerGSDLover said:


> Last month he had down:
> Sit, down, stay, wait, shake, come, bring it, drop it, up, army crawl, leave it, high five.
> Now he's got ... Sit.
> 
> ...


He's still got those things but he's re-evaluating what his motivation is. Have you spoken with the trainer about why he's perfect in class but flips you off at home? 

What about privileges? Nothing In Life Is Free. No couch. No bed. No car rides, people food ZERO perks until he earns these things. 

Play time yes, that's a release of energy. You can work in some manners with ball time if you're slick about it.

Personally because he's so young, I'd step up the value of treats you use at home. He knows what's expected in the ring, he's smart like that and he obviously knows what he can get away with at home. 

Baliff's right about the training never stops (although his Walken avi weirds me out). I have an almost 6 year old who just got kicked out of my kitchen for trying my patience. Again.

Breath deep, don't get frustrated with him and work smarter not harder!


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

I tried a short training session with him this afternoon using a combo of cheese and hotdogs as treats and he completely blew me off. I tried using cut up pieces of what the trainer calls "puppy crack" and nothing. I didn't feed him by that time yet either. I am completely out of my league here. Tried the ball also. (these are different times of day after being completely blown if and trying to end on a good note). Any other things I can try that might intrigue his interest to work for? Food doesn't seem to do it. Hasn't really been, if I'm real honest with myself. The trainer just says "He's a German Shepherd. He's a puppy. That is not a good combination for training." (uh...hello... So what do I do then?). She has been a dog trainer for 20 years according to her. She's currently working for Petco, she said it pays more consistently than being a solo trainer. She's the only reason I went to Petco - a family friend told me she was working there now but that she had used her a decade ago with great results. I have been looking online for a different trainer but most of them are the "drop your dog off for a few weeks and we'll whip him into shape for an astronomical fee!"  I want to train him but I need to be trained too so that I CAN provide consistent training for him throughout his life. I know the training never ends. I've had two two dogs that I've trained myself but they were both ... Easier. One lab/dalmatian mix and one rottweiler. Tug is something he likes to do but it's not something I can exactly hide in my pocket on a walk.

*-*Summer*-*


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Baillif said:


> The work never ends and the training never stops. Thats what a lot of people don't get. Most people think they can take a dog to us for board and train and come back to a dog that obeys every command every time without them having to work for it and of course that isn't the case. Dogs aren't robots. If you could just train the behaviors and get 100% reliability then there would be no point to dog sport competitions as we would all get perfect scores.
> 
> In the end the behavior the dog displays reflects the consistency of the trainer. Training is a lot like working out. The dogs behaviors get stronger with practice but if you don't practice behaviors they atrophy to the point you lose them.


If I were to use your facility, Id pick up my dog understanding that Id need to keep with it. I'm not stupid. Just a bad trainer apparently. Lol 

*-*Summer*-*


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

And Bailiff... Please change it back to Nicholas Cage. The new avatar is breaking me out too. Lol

*-*Summer*-*


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

yeah it's hard to keep this out of my head







:rofl:


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Bailiff I just watched your video with Zebu. Amazing. Wanna come to my house? 

*-*Summer*-*


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Seriously though, your trainer said german shepherd and puppy is a bad combination for training? My dogs being shepherds got them into classes above their age level - I don't really remember with Otto but Venus was in rally at 6 months and the training facility had that listed for 1 year plus. Yes there was a bit of giggling over her puppy brain and Venus getting out of orbit but she was certainly capable of the work.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Thus the reason in referring to her as the "trainer" rather than the trainer in a previous comment. Ugggggh. He's so smart. I think I need to just keep plugging along. I just don't want to screw up, you know?

*-*Summer*-*


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

And yes, I agree. We are in the adult 2 class after the puppy kindergarten class because she said she thought I was training him above where he should have been and that he'd flourish in the adult class. But she put us in with a wild GSD puppy who doesn't even know how to sit because she thought it'd be "cute" for Yogi to have a girlfriend. Really? :/ I need a new trainer. I just called her and she said he's out of control with me because he's not fixed. Whaaaa?!!

*-*Summer*-*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have had a shepherd who didn't want treats too, at least for a while. I learned to teach her using praise alone. No treats whatsoever. But she got that. If the tug is what your dogs will give his canines for, than use his tug. Yes you can keep a tug toy in your jacket pocket. 

Use what works for now. But add to it the praise words, Good Sit, Good boy! Pretty soon you can phase out that tug, by giving it to him for only the best line of commands complied with.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ive been proofing it lately with people trying to steal him off me and throwing his favorite toys at him. If there were more people here could do one of a decoy trying to agitate him off, but throwing stuff at him should be impressive enough.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The trainer is not too skilled. Use the class time to control your dog around other dogs, and let the baloney roll off of you. Maybe the dog is just having a few bad days. 

Actually, go in there with the tug toy, and show her how the dog is much better, and whip out the tug and tell the dog to SIT! Down! Good boy and let him tug away, hopefully vocalizing with some good growls. Ok, Enough or Drop It, and tape her horrified expression for all of us.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

SummerGSDLover said:


> Tug is something he likes to do but it's not something I can exactly hide in my pocket on a walk.
> 
> *-*Summer*-*


Oooh yes it is 
There are tons of different sized tugs/pocket tugs. Stick it in your waistband of your pants, I carry a backpack and yank the tug out of the side pocket of that


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

selzer said:


> tape her horrified expression for all of us.


LOL yes. There was another female shepherd in Venus' rally & CGC class, a little older and had been one class ahead of us. The trainer gave them a tug to work with in the class. Seeing as she was a sensible trainer...

You can make tugs too in any size you want. My daughter makes them for our dogs out of fleece - 3 strips about and inch wide braided together with knots on either ends. It's springy so that's extra rewarding. Not expensive either so if he eats it you're not out $10 for a boodah tug. We buy the fleece off the close out ugly color table at walmarts fabric dept. Costs about $5 to make a bunch of them.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

selzer said:


> The trainer is not too skilled. Use the class time to control your dog around other dogs, and let the baloney roll off of you. Maybe the dog is just having a few bad days.
> 
> Actually, go in there with the tug toy, and show her how the dog is much better, and whip out the tug and tell the dog to SIT! Down! Good boy and let him tug away, hopefully vocalizing with some good growls. Ok, Enough or Drop It, and tape her horrified expression for all of us.


Lol! Ok

*-*Summer*-*


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Do you have other commands that your pup has to follow before he gets his favorite things? Sometimes just focusing on those will get their puppy brains back on track, without any conflict either since they really want what's coming, and won't blow you off because then they're blowing off their mighty reward. Like having to "Wait" before being released to rush outside? Or anything you can think of that your pup lives for?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

How much is that dog eating? Most pups would kill for hotdogs but if you're feeding 4 cups a day or something like that it could be pretty demotivating. The prospect of a 12 course meal sounds fantastic if you haven't eaten in 24 hours but if you just got done stuffing yourself at Thanksgiving or something and then someone breaks out a 12 course meal it's pretty aversive.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Imo if you have to upgrade treats and basically bribe the dog then you should change how you train. If the dog doesn't want to interact with you and only wants food then the relationship isn't there.


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## Jakesworld (Mar 4, 2014)

Ha ha, seems teenage amnesia is quite common. My boy Jake, came down with pano at 7 months, a mild case, but I still gave him time off from training. Mistake! Now at 8 months we are going through all the basics. Again. That's ok, we just set ourselves back a little. Now it's repetition, repetition throughout the day. He never did forget how to chase the cat though!


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Jakesworld said:


> Ha ha, seems teenage amnesia is quite common. My boy Jake, came down with pano at 7 months, a mild case, but I still gave him time off from training. Mistake! Now at 8 months we are going through all the basics. Again. That's ok, we just set ourselves back a little. Now it's repetition, repetition throughout the day. He never did forget how to chase the cat though!


Yes. Yogi was down with a nasty case of undiagnosed giardia then had a hernia repair surgery done. That probably has a lot to do with his disobedient behavior.

*-*Summer*-*


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Baillif said:


> How much is that dog eating? Most pups would kill for hotdogs but if you're feeding 4 cups a day or something like that it could be pretty demotivating. The prospect of a 12 course meal sounds fantastic if you haven't eaten in 24 hours but if you just got done stuffing yourself at Thanksgiving or something and then someone breaks out a 12 course meal it's pretty aversive.


This is very true.
I had an issue with my pup chewing on something that she knew was wrong and I caught her in the act. I did not feed her for 1 day. No treats, no food. The next day, she was like a different pup. She obeyed everything I said and never chewed on that item since. 
Food is extremely powerful, but only when the dog is viewing it as a necessitiy / survival. If the pup is eating too much, she is not yet in survival mode. 
I would take a close look at how much the pup is eating.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Motivation, timing and consistency. My trainer repeated that over and over,

Food or toy drive, motivation, gotta build it up <see bailiff comments
Timing, marking the behavior quickly enough that the puppy makes the connection
Consistency as Carmen said in another thread, consistency equals trust to the dog. 

Micheal Ellis DVD the power of training with food, he does a good job breaking this down step by step for us newbies.

I'd ditch the trainer as it sounds like she's making excuses for her ineptitude with you, her client.

Don't loose hope, you'll get there.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't agree with food deprivation training - I know, I'm going against the flow, lol - but instead I'd look at the motivation behind the motivators. For example, food deprivation works because the dog has to eat, that's an easy one. But why are the toys not interesting, and why isn't he making eye contact? Being the social creatures that they are, you should be able to work this in your favor. How much attention do you typically give your pup, and on whose terms? Do you lavish him with love every time he comes looking for it? Maybe that's the problem, and he needs to understand that life doesn't revolve around him. Just a thought.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Blanketback said:


> How much attention do you typically give your pup, and on whose terms? Do you lavish him with love every time he comes looking for it? Maybe that's the problem, and he needs to understand that life doesn't revolve around him. Just a thought.


That's what I was thinking a couple posts back with the NILIF. Especially if he's a charming dog who's not really bad (destructive, out of control) so much as defiant about doing what he's told.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

He sounds young, he needs WAY more positive reinforcement training, repetitions and consistency IMO.

Also, reward never becomes non-existent, he just learns to work harder for it.

Here is how it was explained to me by an awesome IPO trainer:

Teach your dog reward is like a harvest is to people. It is always coming, but you have to put it "X" amount of work to get it. When people grow crops, they work hard, diligently, and without fail, in anticipation of a reward that is months out. That reward is tremendous, so in knowing that the farmers put in everything they have. Once that harvest comes, the feeling that all that work put in was worth it encompasses the being.

This is how dogs should view reward - hope it makes sense!

Also, it is something to be built up to. By the time my dogs were ready for their BH this concept had been instilled. But we worked and trained for MANY, MANY hours with short games, HIGH levels of reward and play prior to starting to build that up.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

SunCzarina said:


> That's what I was thinking a couple posts back with the NILIF. Especially if he's a charming dog who's not really bad (destructive, out of control) so much as defiant about doing what he's told.


He is a charmingly defiant dog. Lol. He listens when we're in front of people and I swear he likes to show off how well he listens. But at home blows me off. Is there such thing as giving your dog too much attention? I have three kids. They take up a lot of time. He isn't in his crate a LOT but he's in there anytime I can't watch his interactions throughout the day. He goes everywhere with me for the most part. 
Interaction example:

Me sitting on floor with two youngest kids tying shoes. Yogi walks over snuffling around and trying to grab shoes. I tell him to leave it and go get his ball. He brings the tug. I say, "Your ball." He gets his ball. I tell him to sit. He sits. Kids need something, I turn away and he grabs the ball. I tell him to drop it. He drops it. I grab the ball and toss it. He then takes the ball and goes and starts playing with my other dog. When I'm done with kids, I go tell him he's a good boy and give him rubs and take him outside to throw the ball around. 

That's just one piece of my 18 hour day with kids and dogs and husband. I also will ignore him while playing with my other dog sometimes because he pushes her away from me and she's very submissive so will just go back to bed. Idk. That probably was a waste of typing because it can't tell you anything.

*-*Summer*-*


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Update as of today:

And SUCCESS!!! He's listening without treats. I took one of the links off of his prong and kept it up by his ears. I think it was too low. It wasn't around where his normal collar sits by any means but I moved it up about an inch and now he's doing the commands perfectly. The corrections weren't strong enough. He's still wagging his tail and I can tell the corrections aren't breaking his spirit. But he IS listening better than ever. Making eye contact now too - which is super exciting!
He's improved so much that he is now doing sit, down, and stay with hand signals and voice commands from 25' away. Almost 100% every command even with five kids (mine and the new neighbor kids who just moved in last weekend) riding around on bikes and scooters and people he doesn't know walking around.

I AM SO HAPPY AND PROUD OF NY YOGI BEAR!!! 

*-*Summer*-*


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

OH! And my husband was getting him all riled up by shuffling his feet and jumping around and I STILL got Yogi to immediately stop and look at me and he went into a down. That was AMAZING.

*-*Summer*-*


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

SummerGSDLover said:


> *-*Summer*-*


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...194202d1395766539-listen-me-1395766533273.jpg

lol. Love that face.


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