# Buying a puppy from a friend, help and advice would be appreciated



## YORCHI

Hi everyone!

A friend of mine has a pair of GSD's who just had puppies. I was originally very opposed to the thought of buying a puppy from someone when there are so many in shelters, but after my last experience I have changed my mind.

My friend is not a breeder, she does not do anything like that to my knowledge. She simply has a male and female GSD and they have puppies now. I am going to buy one from her, a female, and will pick her up when she's 8 weeks old.

I asked her if she was going to have them screened for any hip and elbow issues and she said it wasn't necessary because her dogs don't have any issues. I would just like to know upfront what I should ask about or have done to make sure we don't have any issues. I tried reading as much as I could and I would still like to hear from someone else that knows much more about these amazing dogs than I do.

Thanks in advance!


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## scarfish

if a friend is not a breeder and was too stupid to get their dogs fixed and now have puppies they should just give you one for free rather than put them in a shelter.


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## Eiros

I don't know about what happened with your last dog, but if you are looking for a good quality puppy, find a good breeder that health and temperament tests their dogs. Not every health issue is obviously visible, and neither are hip and elbow issues, so your friend is wrong in saying health testing doesn't matter. 

I wouldn't give my money to someone who doesn't care about these things.


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## DaniFani

The puppies/dogs that are in shelters, come from people like your friend.


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## Mieko

You should ask her again about certifying hip structure for her GSD's. They may not have hip issues now, but the future is unpredictable. You might also want to ask about the bloodline if you really want a purebred german shepherd. 
As sad as it is, while there are so many dogs in shelters, many of them will grow to have an abundance of health problems. It's safer to either not get emotionally attached (which let's face it- is almost impossible), or to just get one from a reliable breeder.


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## Sunflowers

If you know this is wrong, why would you give someone money to support what she is doing?


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## Twyla

Her dogs may not have issues, but what about their parents, siblings? It isn't just health to be concerned about, also temperament.

It is a tough call. The pups are here. I wouldn't buy a pup from her, but would cover the costs of the pup for the first vet/shot visit, otherwise it is just supporting a BYB. If you are concerned about health due to prior experience, do some research and begin talking with responsible breeders. They will know their dogs, the type pups they produce and will have done the needed testing.


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## Lilie

You could purchase the pup from your friend. It could be the best dog you've ever had. It may not ever have any significant health issues. 

Sadly, the odds wouldn't be in your favor.


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## Merciel

YORCHI said:


> I asked her if she was going to have them screened for any hip and elbow issues and she said it wasn't necessary because her dogs don't have any issues. I would just like to know upfront what I should ask about or have done to make sure we don't have any issues.


If your friend is that ignorant, then honestly there's nothing you _can_ ask or do to make sure you don't have issues.

The dogs are bred, the puppies are born. If you like the parents and you want one of their progeny, take one. I agree with the consensus in this thread that personally I would not support somebody's carelessness by giving them money for such a puppy, but that's your decision.

In any case, it really doesn't sound like there's anything meaningful you can ask your friend, because it sounds like that person has absolutely no idea what they're doing and the answers would be useless.

Just raise your puppy like you'd raise any other puppy and hope for the best.


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## YORCHI

I've always loved GSD's and I have always wanted one but could never really have one until now. I adopted one from a shelter about a month ago and we were absolutely in love with her. She wound up getting sick three days later so we took her back to the shelter so they could have her looked at by a vet and they told us she had distemper so they put her down. I offered to pay for the treatment because we really loved the dog but they said it wouldn't be worth it because most likely she would die anyways. So that was that.

We still want one and I've made efforts to reach out to different rescue organizations but surprisingly, not a single one has contacted me back. I've filled out the applications, made phone calls, sent emails and haven't received anything back. The one organization that did reply back to me told me that they wouldn't let me adopt a GSD because of where I live, since my area is supposedly really bad at treating them. 

I don't want to risk another shelter issue like the one I had, especially with something as bad and contagious as distemper. We have another dog and I would be absolute destroyed if they both got sick.

That is why I'm pretty much willing to give up and buy a dog from this friend of mine. I understand everything that you all are saying but unless I can get in contact with a shelter or rescue like I originally wanted to, I don't see anything else to do. I don't have the money to buy one from a reputable breeder and it's almost the same thing as buying one from my friend except of course for the fact that the reputable breeder will provide a much better quality dog. 

We don't want a show dog or a working dog. We want a loving dog that we can raise from a puppy and grow with our family.


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## Gretchen

I generally dislike doing business with friends. Considering the circumstances your friend should be paying you to take the pup, rather than you buying it.


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## YORCHI

She isn't a very close friend, more like someone I knew from high school and keep contact with through Facebook. A close friend would definitely not be selling me a puppy.

She is also not the type of person to advertise their puppies on Craigslist or Facebook in that matter. She is definitely not an expert on GSD's either. She knew that I had a puppy once and that she had to be put down. She told me to let her know if I wanted another one and I did. She recently told me that her dog just gave birth to 6 puppies and I jumped at the chance to get one.

I'm not defending her and I'm not 100% excited about this. I'm 100% excited about getting a GSD puppy but I'd still rather adopt one from a rescue or shelter before buying one. I hope I can make that clear that I am not trying to add to the problem of irresponsible breeding and I'm actually very opposed to that. I don't see her as being the person who has her dogs simply to let them breed and then sell the puppies at the cyclic rate. If I find out that is the case with her, then I'll cancel and find a different dog.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Can I ask how much you are going to pay? If it's more than the cost to feed, deworm, and have the vet look at the pups, then it is too much and she will probably be making money off of them since she doesn't use the money to get the parents health screened, titled, etc. If it is truly an accidental breeding, she should be happy to place the pups without making money off of them.


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## YORCHI

$200 and she's going to make sure they have their first sets of shots and deworming.

Should I tell her that I'll only buy one if she has them screened by a vet? Or if the parents have papers to prove they're purebred?


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## Merciel

YORCHI said:


> I don't have the money to buy one from a reputable breeder and it's almost the same thing as buying one from my friend except of course for the fact that the reputable breeder will provide a much better quality dog.


No, it's not at all the same thing. One of those choices supports the welfare of the breed that we all love. The other does not.

If you truly want to adopt from a rescue or shelter, and you can't find the exact puppy you want, then my first recommendation would be to broaden your criteria. Consider adopting an adolescent or adult dog, and consider mixes in addition to purebred puppies.

In most parts of the U.S. (and, from what I hear, most parts of Canada), it is not difficult to find adopters for purebred puppies. Demand for those dogs is very high, they get adopted quickly, and they tend to have their choices of excellent homes. There's often a long waiting list for these dogs. _Everybody_ wants those puppies, because there is this widespread idea that a puppy will be a clean slate and totally malleable, and that a purebred puppy will automatically have the complement of traits that people stereotypically associate with its breed.

Both of those ideas are, in my opinion, completely wrongheaded. Puppies are not clean slates, they're crapshoots, especially puppies from unknown backgrounds (as most rescue and shelter pups are). Purebred dogs do _not_ always have the traits that people associate with their breed stereotypes.

So if you want to rescue a dog, my advice is to figure out what you _actually_ want -- what personality traits, what energy level, what kind of temperament -- and then look for a dog somewhere in the 6-month to 3-year range that has that personality and activity level.

Sometimes the right dog for you does not come in the package you anticipated. I have an Akita mix foster dog coming this weekend who will, in all probability, have a _fantastic_ family dog personality: calm, gentle, affectionate, playful, sociable to people and other animals -- in short, not at all what people tend to associate with stereotypical Akitas. She's about a year old, so her personality and structure will be pretty much set. No crapshoot there: she's mature enough that what you see is what you get. And I think that is a much safer and more sensible choice for the average pet home than a cute fluffy question mark of a puppy would be, especially when we're talking about a breed like the GSD that has so many health and behavioral problems in its lines.

On the other hand, if you are absolutely dead set on having a purebred GSD for whatever reason, and you can't find one in rescue, then buy one from a responsible, ethical, knowledgeable breeder. Support a program that is striving to produce the best possible dog in all respects. If you have to save up for it, then save up.

But please do not support ignorance and greed by buying from someone who is not even _trying_ to produce good, sound, healthy dogs.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

^ Totally agree with Merciel's post above ^

to expand on what I was saying- if her dog has puppies, she needs to bring them to a vet before she charges anyone any amount of money. If it was TRULY an oops litter, she needs to take them to the vet, get them wormed and checked out. With a couple of visits to the vet plus feeding the pups for a couple of weeks after they are weened, I could see charging a small fee to get the money back and get her dogs fixed. Anything beyond those costs leads me to believe it is not an oops litter and I would not support that.


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## YORCHI

Merciel said:


> No, it's not at all the same thing.
> 
> But please do not support ignorance and greed by buying from someone who is not even _trying_ to produce good, sound, healthy dogs.


I understand your concern. I agree with everything you are saying. I have broadened my search and have found nothing. I do not know why, I haven't even been given the opportunity to adopt one. I could understand if I wasn't meeting the requirements for being a good person to adopt but that is not the case. I own my own home in a good area with a nice back yard. We are responsible dog owners and have always been. 

I am willing to do this as my last resort if everything checks out fine for me. If I get there and I see horrible conditions for the dogs then I am walking away. If I find out that she actually is a backyard breeder then I am walking away. I will report her to animal control as well. But if I see that she loves her dogs and takes great care of them then I don't really see much of a problem. 

There may be better availability of dogs in your area but I am not finding any here. I will not spend 2-4 thousand dollars on a dog, that is not an option for me regardless of how amazing this dog can possibly be. My absolute first choice is to adopt, and I am still actively searching. I have a preference and I am searching for the dog that I want. I can easily go to a shelter and fall in love with many dogs but I want a specific one and I am really giving it my all trying to find one.


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## wolfstraum

if she had these pups on purpose - she IS a breeder...

If it was by accident, and she is placing them for $200, she is NOT making any profit on the litter IMO, I just hope she plans on getting the parents both fixed. At least you get to meet the parents, but otherwise, you are probably in a bit of a safer situation than with a shelter dog.....

Dogs not showing signs of having hip or elbow problems means nothing....dogs will still radiograph and rate dysplastic without visible symptoms and those dogs should NOT be bred because their pups are at a higher risk than pups from OFA certified parents.

Pups should be wormed at least 2x before being sent home, and should have a fecal test at the vets when they get their first set of vaccines.

At $200 you pay your money and take your chances. Not the ideal situation, but not much different than a rescue or shelter 

Lee


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## AngelaA6

Petfinder Adoptable | Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Ontario, CA | Princess
Petfinder Adoptable | Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Ontario, CA | Hannah

I found these two girls on petfinder in Ontario, CA  they may not be puppies but it's always worth checking out.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

YORCHI said:


> If I find out that she actually is a backyard breeder then I am walking away. I will report her to animal control as well. But if I see that she loves her dogs and takes great care of them then I don't really see much of a problem.


I hope you do walk away if you find out she is a BYB. Remember though, she can still be a BYB even if she takes care of the dogs and loves them. Many BYBs are families who let their dogs breed, raise them in the house, and love them. This doesn't mean they should be breeding. Health testing is super important, especially in a breed absolutely plagued by horrible diseases. Search through the forum a bit, you'll find post after post about hip dysplasia, degenerative myleopathy, lumbo-sacral disease, etc. Not to mention the countless posts about temperament problems - this is where working dogs comes into play. You might not care about titles, but a dog who can excel at a sport shows that the dog has the proper nerve to do so. 

If on the other hand, as I said before, if she never intended to breed them and somehow an accident happened and they bred, then I don't see paying for vet care, food, etc as supporting unethical breeding.


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## boomer11

If you visit and the parents aren't skittish and barking non stop and the pups are active and not shy then I don't see why not. These pups are born. They will either be sold to someone else or put in shelters. Then I guess you can "rescue" it from a shelter? It's all the same. You not supporting a byb isn't going to change a thing. There's always people out there who wants a cheap puppy. The chances of you getting a dog that everything a German Shepherd should be aren't in your favor but that's the gamble you have to take if you don't want to go to a reputable breeder. 

Btw 200 seems cheap now but if the dog has aggression issues and needs a trainer or has medical issues then I promise you that 200 up front won't seem so cheap anymore. I've gone the byb route and learned the hard way. The emotional and financial toll isn't worth it. 

I wouldn't spend 2000 on a dog either. Good thing well bred dogs don't cost that much. 

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## YORCHI

I really appreciate everyone's comments. I hope I'm not coming off in a bad way.

I haven't closed this deal so there's always time for me to back out and keep searching. I just wanted to have more information so I am making the most informed decision I can make. 

I think the biggest reason I have for not wanting an adult dog is that we currently have a 3 year old male chihuahua that was given to my daughter as a birthday present. I can't take a risk with that dog's safety and maybe it's just me, but I feel that bringing an adult GSD into the home with my killer chihuahua is just asking for trouble. So that is why I want a puppy.

There are risks with everything, and I've read through thread after thread already about all the medical issues these dogs have. If it was about finding a dog that was 100% safe then I wouldn't be looking at these dogs at all, and instead would go back to keeping a fish tank on my desk.

I made the comment about the 2-4k dog because when I did searches for reputable breeders in my area, that's how much they cost. That is more than my TV, even more than my motorcycle lol


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## AngelaA6

I know I'm probably annoying you with all the rescue stuff but have you looked at Coastal German Shepherd Rescue of Southern California? Just from petfinder I saw they had a couple GSD pups and mixed gsd puppies.


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## boomer11

Bringing a pup in imo is going to be worst for your Chihuahua. Within two weeks the gsd is going to be bigger, stronger, and more rambunctious than your Chihuahua. To top it all off its going to have absolutely no manners. 

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## Eiros

boomer11 said:


> Btw 200 seems cheap now but if the dog has aggression issues and needs a trainer or has medical issues then I promise you that 200 up front won't seem so cheap anymore. I've gone the byb route and learned the hard way. The emotional and financial toll isn't worth it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



THIS. $200 isn't much up front, but many of us (me included) learned the hard way that a poorly bred dog often means LOTS of $$$$ and heartache in the long run!


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## YORCHI

AngelaA6 said:


> Petfinder Adoptable | Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Ontario, CA | Princess
> Petfinder Adoptable | Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Ontario, CA | Hannah
> 
> I found these two girls on petfinder in Ontario, CA  they may not be puppies but it's always worth checking out.





AngelaA6 said:


> I know I'm probably annoying you with all the rescue stuff but have you looked at Coastal German Shepherd Rescue of Southern California? Just from petfinder I saw they had a couple GSD pups and mixed gsd puppies.


I have a friend who volunteers with them who I contacted for more information and even filled out their application. I never got a call or email back.

The only rescue organization I heard back from was the Southern California German Shepherd Rescue who told me they don't adopt dogs to people living in San Bernardino or Riverside county.

I use petharbor.com and that is where I found the puppy I adopted the first time. She was about 4 months old, if you search through my posts you'll find a picture of her. I miss that dog


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## Jack's Dad

This forum generally only supports two ideas. One, buy from an ethical/reputable breeder (if you can honestly figure out who they are) or two, get from rescue/animal control.

Your friend will either sell these puppies to someone else or they will wind up in rescue/animal control. If you buy from your friend you will be a sinner. Get the same puppy from rescue and you are a saint who saved a puppy.
Go figure.

Everyone needs to learn. I say go ahead and get the puppy and you will learn one way or the other.


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## Sunflowers

Why must you have one today? Now? Many of us have waited years and saved enough money until we could afford a well bred dog, and if you can only afford $200 to pay for a puppy, what are you going to do if you need to pay thousands to a vet for healthcare?
And leaving aside the money issue, if you have a "killer Chihuahua" in your home I would not recommend getting any other dog, much less a German Shepherd puppy.
A GSD could kill your Chihuahua in an instant, if the little dog annoyed it enough.


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## YORCHI

Jack's Dad said:


> This forum generally only supports two ideas. One, buy from an ethical/reputable breeder (if you can honestly figure out who they are) or two, get from rescue/animal control.
> 
> Your friend will either sell these puppies to someone else or they will wind up in rescue/animal control. If you buy from your friend you will be a sinner. Get the same puppy from rescue and you are a saint who saved a puppy.
> Go figure.
> 
> Everyone needs to learn. I say go ahead and get the puppy and you will learn one way or the other.


Thank you. I am realizing this and I would much rather be a saint. I have no doubt that she will either sell them or give them to someone when she doesn't want them. Then who knows what will happen to them. I know the type of person that I am and know that I will do my absolute best to take care of this animal. I love dogs, and I have always loved GSD's, maybe that's why I am even willing to consider getting one in this method. 

I'm not giving up on finding the right one through a shelter or rescue organization. I seriously felt I had hit it perfect with the one we adopted a month ago, totally felt like it was my one in a million chance that I had gotten the perfect dog for me. 

I'm okay with a dog having some issues, I don't think any dog is perfect, and I know this is totally not the popular opinion, but buying a dog from a so-called reputable breeder is like buying the best slave for my money in my opinion. That's kinda how I see it in my head. I don't think anyone should buy any dog or animal when we have so many in shelters. But I guess it's not a bad thing when everyone else does it. Maybe that's why I'm getting so much flak for asking my question. These could be perfectly good dogs, or just as good as breeder dogs but because they aren't from a breeder and aren't costing me thousands of dollars they will never be as good.


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## AngelaA6

YORCHI said:


> I have a friend who volunteers with them who I contacted for more information and even filled out their application. I never got a call or email back.
> 
> The only rescue organization I heard back from was the Southern California German Shepherd Rescue who told me they don't adopt dogs to people living in San Bernardino or Riverside county.
> 
> I use petharbor.com and that is where I found the puppy I adopted the first time. She was about 4 months old, if you search through my posts you'll find a picture of her. I miss that dog


I'm sorry to hear that the rescues are being impossible  I rescued from a humane society that my sister volunteers at. The original owner didn't want the him when they picked Gunther up and I just had to wait for the neuter to be done. The interview process was done at the shelter.

I'd be uncomfortable telling you to either adopt or buy the puppy from your friend. Honestly though my personal decision would be to wait for a rescue or save up for a reputable bred puppy but that's just me and not what I'm telling you to do, this is your decision and there has been some great advice on this thread. Some reputable breeders even sell their older puppies for a discounted price.


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## YORCHI

Sunflowers said:


> Why must you have one today? Now? Many of us have waited years and saved enough money until we could afford a well bred dog, and if you can only afford $200 to pay for a puppy, what are you going to do if you need to pay thousands to a vet for healthcare?
> And leaving aside the money issue, if you have a "killer Chihuahua" in your home I would not recommend getting any other dog, much less a German Shepherd puppy.
> A GSD could kill your Chihuahua in an instant, if the little dog annoyed it enough.


If you think about it, I've been waiting since I knew what a GSD was to have one...so should I keep waiting?

Is a 3k dollar GSD better than a shelter dog or a dog that someone dumps in the street? What about a dog that got out of the yard and ran around for a while before winding up in my front yard drinking water from the curb? Does a breeder dog not have to go to to vet anymore? Are they immune for anything and everything? Or are we simply talking about possibilities that something won't happen? I've read enough about finding a 'reputable' breeder that I don't even know how to find one anymore.


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## Sunflowers

I give up.


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## YORCHI

AngelaA6 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that the rescues are being impossible  I rescued from a humane society that my sister volunteers at. The original owner didn't want the him when they picked Gunther up and I just had to wait for the neuter to be done. The interview process was done at the shelter.
> 
> I'd be uncomfortable telling you to either adopt or buy the puppy from your friend. Honestly though my personal decision would be to wait for a rescue or save up for a reputable bred puppy but that's just me and not what I'm telling you to do, this is your decision and there has been some great advice on this thread. Some reputable breeders even sell their older puppies for a discounted price.


I've never in my life bought a puppy. The chihuahua we have was a gift to my daughter that my mother in law bought her. For me, and I know this is exaggerating, buying a dog is like buying a slave. I would not feel right saving up all this money to buy one from the best dealer in the world who's dogs have a direct lineage that goes back to the Adam and Eve of GSD's and have a bit of direwolf in them from Game of Thrones. Why would I do that when I can find a dog just as great in a shelter or rescue.

If we're only picking dogs based on them having the ultimate in backgrounds then we're being pretty elitist and it must mean we also only have the finest of everything in our lives. I'm sure we are all married to olympic athletes as well.

Sorry for the rant, I'm at work and I'm stressed out...and I really wish I could come home to my GSD instead of to an empty dog house that reminds me of the one we had and how she had to be put down...


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## YORCHI

Sunflowers said:


> I give up.


Please don't, I appreciate your comments, I genuinely do. But I think we've established that I am NOT going to save up money to buy one from a breeder. Now putting that aside, can you help me or is your only option for me to buy one from a breeder. 

If that is your only option, can you recommend me your breeder, how much did your dog cost, where can I find more information on your breeder?


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## Merciel

YORCHI said:


> Now putting that aside, can you help me or is your only option for me to buy one from a breeder.


What other help do you want anyone to give? All the options are outlined already, and you've considered and rejected them, so what else is there to say?

If you're not going to save up money to buy one from a breeder, then okay, don't.

If you're unable to adopt one from a rescue, then okay, don't.

If you can't find the dog of your dreams in a shelter and you're not interested in the dogs that _are_ there, then okay, don't.

If you want to buy one of these puppies for $200, then hey, go for it. Love the puppy, raise it well, cherish it as a member of your family. Good luck and godspeed.


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## AngelaA6

YORCHI said:


> If we're only picking dogs based on them having the ultimate in backgrounds then we're being pretty elitist and it must mean we also only have the finest of everything in our lives. I'm sure we are all married to olympic athletes as well.
> :


From what I've learned in my uneducated brain about breeding is that a pedigree is there to show the health and temperament of a dog. A breeder is there to better the breed, to strive to eliminate health issues and temperament issues. 

I know nothing when it comes to how great a certain dog is in a pedigree. I worry about solid temperaments and health when it comes to picking a dog. Also whether or not that dog will fit in with my lifestyle.

This is just my opinion and I may not be right and hopefully someone else who knows more about why you choose a pedigreed dog over a byb dog will come along, chip in and hopefully I'll learn more


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## blueangele

I didn't read through all of the posts, but $200 is what I paid for my rescue! Sounds like she isn't charging a totally inconceivable amount..I would check out the parents, ask a few questions and then decide


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## YORCHI

The advice I was hoping to get was along the lines of:

Have a vet screen the dog for a, b, c...
Check this and that from the parents
Check this and that from the litter
Take the dog to the vet afterwards and have them check for this or that
Be aware of these warning signs
Look out for these possible issues

I understand everything else, I should save my money and buy from a breeder, but then I also read that not all breeders are created equal and some people still have problems from their breeders. So how do I fix that?

I should also adopt, I want to adopt, it is what I want to do, but I am not having any luck. I am not giving up, I am still looking, and it is still what I want to do. 

I wasn't expecting to only receive advice about buying from a breeder as if that is the absolute only option available and everything else is just wrong. I don't believe that. I want to believe that good dogs exist outside of the breeder circle.


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## YORCHI

AngelaA6 said:


> From what I've learned in my uneducated brain about breeding is that a pedigree is there to show the health and temperament of a dog. A breeder is there to better the breed, to strive to eliminate health issues and temperament issues.
> 
> I know nothing when it comes to how great a certain dog is in a pedigree. I worry about solid temperaments and health when it comes to picking a dog. Also whether or not that dog will fit in with my lifestyle.
> 
> This is just my opinion and I may not be right and hopefully someone else who knows more about why you choose a pedigreed dog over a byb dog will come along, chip in and hopefully I'll learn more


I am going to spend this weekend looking into breeders. Maybe I'll find information that will change my opinion about them. Temperament is definitely worth the money and I would consider that more heavily. I've never had a bad dog in my life so maybe that's why I'm really biased towards thinking that any dog can be a good dog if you raise it yourself. 


blueangele said:


> I didn't read through all of the posts, but $200 is what I paid for my rescue! Sounds like she isn't charging a totally inconceivable amount..I would check out the parents, ask a few questions and then decide


Thank you, it's what I intend to do, if it doesn't seem right to me then I am walking away. If I absolutely can not find a shelter dog then I will look more closely into breeders.


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## Courtney

....here come the tomatoes being thrown

I say, if you are ready for the commitment of dog ownership & the price is affordable, you want a GSD, get a pup from this friends litter.


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## boomer11

I just want to say the people who are telling you to go to a reputable breeder are people who have been down your route and are just warning you from their prior experiences. 

If you think you will have a solid dog depending on how you socialize and train it, I will tell you from experience that you are dead wrong. It seems like your mind is already made up so good luck! I thought the exact same way as you. Why pay 1000+ for a pup when I can get one just as good for 300. With a breed that is completely over bred you'd be surprised how many have temperament/health issues. 

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## YORCHI

The only thing my mind is made up about is that I want a female GSD puppy. Everything else can be changed.


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## Sunflowers

YORCHI said:


> Please don't, I appreciate your comments, I genuinely do. But I think we've established that I am NOT going to save up money to buy one from a breeder. Now putting that aside, can you help me or is your only option for me to buy one from a breeder.
> 
> If that is your only option, can you recommend me your breeder, how much did your dog cost, where can I find more information on your breeder?


You reached out via PM, and I replied very honestly. 

I will say that if you go see puppies, chances are you will come home with one. 
It would be well worth it to do yourself a favor and research why we are saying what we are saying. 
And, no, raising it yourself is not going to guarantee you a good dog. The disposition of a dog is genetic. You can train somewhat, but there is no way to override bad genetics.

I just realized.... you say you are in Ontario!!
Do contact Carmen. At least talk to her. 
http://www.carmspack.com/contact/


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## Merciel

YORCHI said:


> The advice I was hoping to get was along the lines of:
> 
> Have a vet screen the dog for a, b, c...
> Check this and that from the parents
> Check this and that from the litter
> Take the dog to the vet afterwards and have them check for this or that
> Be aware of these warning signs
> Look out for these possible issues


The problem here is that most issues are not apparent in 8-week-old puppies. Other than the absolute most extreme cases, you cannot tell if there are going to be behavioral or health problems. Those issues will only become apparent as they develop down the road.

Even then, if you don't have a ton of experience, it's easy to miss the warning signs. I _thought_ I knew what I was doing when I adopted my fearful mutt puppy Pongu, because god knows I'd read all the books and watched all the videos and talked to the shelter staff (who turned out to have not the first clue about what they were doing)... and I didn't have the faintest idea what I was actually getting into.

So, I mean, you can and should try to go into it with your eyes open, but one of the big reasons people recommend working with a knowledgeable, ethical breeder is because a good one knows waaaayyy more about their dogs than any novice puppy buyer can possibly hope to see.

If your friend doesn't know or care enough to have done OFA or PennHip examinations of the breeding dogs' hips and elbows, if there's no realiable information about genetic health issues in the pedigree, if you don't have any record of performance titles or working certifications... then all the stuff that I would normally suggest looking for simply is not there. Those questions can't be answered. Therefore there's no point asking them.

The only thing you really can do, as a couple of people have already said, is to go meet the parents and see if they're skittish or aggressive. Try to get a look at them off their own property and in unfamiliar environments (many timid dogs will appear more relaxed in their own homes, and the timidity will only become apparent when they're in less familiar places). That's about all you can reasonably hope to evaluate.

On the adopting front, if you are really dedicated to doing that, my suggestion would be to contact rescues and ask to be placed on a waiting list, and/or spend some time volunteering with those rescues (if you can't foster, you might be able to help in some other capacity like fundraising, transport, web design, etc. -- if you have ANY skills, there's something you can do to help).

Then you might be able to get to the head of the line when a dog you like comes in through that rescue. But that route usually takes some time and there are no guarantees about what dogs will come through the shelter system or when.


----------



## YORCHI

Sunflowers said:


> You reached out via PM, and I replied very honestly.
> 
> I will say that if you go see puppies, chances are you will come home with one.
> It would be well worth it to do yourself a favor and research why we are saying what we are saying.
> And, no, raising it yourself is not going to guarantee you a good dog. The disposition of a dog is genetic. You can train somewhat, but there is no way to override bad genetics.
> 
> I just realized.... you say you are in Ontario!!
> Do contact Carmen. At least talk to her.
> CARMSPACK.com


I replied, and I appreciate your honesty. And I am in Ontario California 

I don't think my wife would let me make a trip to Canada for a dog, unless we knew ahead of time this dog would save our lives somehow...


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## Sunflowers

YORCHI said:


> I replied, and I appreciate your honesty. And I am in Ontario California
> 
> I don't think my wife would let me make a trip to Canada for a dog, unless we knew ahead of time this dog would save our lives somehow...


You don't have to go. 

Puppies are shipped all the time.


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## YORCHI

Merciel said:


> The problem here is that most issues are not apparent in 8-week-old puppies. Other than the absolute most extreme cases, you cannot tell if there are going to be behavioral or health problems. Those issues will only become apparent as they develop down the road.
> 
> Even then, if you don't have a ton of experience, it's easy to miss the warning signs. I _thought_ I knew what I was doing when I adopted my fearful mutt puppy Pongu, because god knows I'd read all the books and watched all the videos and talked to the shelter staff (who turned out to have not the first clue about what they were doing)... and I didn't have the faintest idea what I was actually getting into.
> 
> So, I mean, you can and should try to go into it with your eyes open, but one of the big reasons people recommend working with a knowledgeable, ethical breeder is because a good one knows waaaayyy more about their dogs than any novice puppy buyer can possibly hope to see.
> 
> If your friend doesn't know or care enough to have done OFA or PennHip examinations of the breeding dogs' hips and elbows, if there's no realiable information about genetic health issues in the pedigree, if you don't have any record of performance titles or working certifications... then all the stuff that I would normally suggest looking for simply is not there. Those questions can't be answered. Therefore there's no point asking them.
> 
> The only thing you really can do, as a couple of people have already said, is to go meet the parents and see if they're skittish or aggressive. Try to get a look at them off their own property and in unfamiliar environments (many timid dogs will appear more relaxed in their own homes, and the timidity will only become apparent when they're in less familiar places). That's about all you can reasonably hope to evaluate.
> 
> On the adopting front, if you are really dedicated to doing that, my suggestion would be to contact rescues and ask to be placed on a waiting list, and/or spend some time volunteering with those rescues (if you can't foster, you might be able to help in some other capacity like fundraising, transport, web design, etc. -- if you have ANY skills, there's something you can do to help).
> 
> Then you might be able to get to the head of the line when a dog you like comes in through that rescue. But that route usually takes some time and there are no guarantees about what dogs will come through the shelter system or when.


Thank you for this reply, it makes me want to look into breeders much more than simply being told that it's the best choice because it's the best choice. 

I guess I keep going back to this, if people say to go to a breeder, but there are still lots of bad stories about dogs from breeders, why would I go back to one? Sorry, it rattles my brain, I just want a dog


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## JakodaCD OA

here's my opinion for what it's worth..

These puppies are going to need a home regardless. If they ended up in rescue, you'd probably adopt one if you had the chance..

My feeling is this,,go meet the parents of the puppies, start there, check out her place, check out the dogs, if you LIKE their temperament, I say go for it..They are going to need homes anyhow.

BUT, if you do get one, go in with the knowledge that, you don't really know the health background (hips and elbow status) on the parents because the owner didn't bother to xray them..If she says, "well there are no problems",,what is she houdini? (not being sarcastic) There is no way of knowing hip/elbow status without xrays.

I think if you want to do this, go in with the knowledge you may have an issue down the road or you may not. Just keep that in mind.

Again, the way I figure it, is, these puppies could be in rescue and you'd probably want to adopt one and maybe know less about them than you do now.

MEET the parents/check out the place, go from there..Just my 2 cents


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## YORCHI

Thank you all for the replies. I am going to see them this Sunday, if anything doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy, I'm not very sentimental so I am not going to fall in love with a puppy and ignore obvious warning signs, then I will walk away.

I'll update here when I know more. Again, I appreciate every reply and I am beginning to think more heavily into a breeder. I was just always against buying a dog and I had a general negative bias on breeders because of that. But you are all way more knowledgeable than I am and I will definitely take your advice. I can at least do some more research on it before totally giving it up. I will definitely not say that I didn't know, because you all took the time to warn me and I appreciate it.


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## Jack's Dad

Telling someone to buy from a "reputable breeder" is like telling someone to only use a "reputable lawyer" or a "good mechanic".

I'm from Calif. and there are many breeders that health test for everything possible. They have titled dogs as far as the eye can see and you couldn't give me one of them.

There is so much specialization in Show, IPO, Protection etc......that I don't believe many of these represent good stable GSDs.

It takes time to learn what you want and where to get it.

Experience takes time. I'm still learning.


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## Sunflowers

Jack's Dad said:


> Telling someone to buy from a "reputable breeder" is like telling someone to only use a "reputable lawyer" or a "good mechanic".
> .


Nah. 
Those can't bite you.


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## alexg

"reputable breeder" ... so why do we get so many PMs regarding these "reputable breeders"? You can spend 10 times more buying from them and end up with a sickly neurotic dog.


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## David Winners

When someone wants a rescue, I sit them down and have a long talk about what they expect out of a dog and what their level of training and exercise commitment are.

Then I do my best to talk them out of any breed bias they have and to explain that temperament and energy level are far more important. 

Then I take them to the shelter and do my best to pair them up with an adult dog that suits their family.

This has worked pretty well for me in the past. 

David Winners


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## Liesje

If your friends are charging money for puppies then they are breeders. Not sure why so many people say they aren't breeders, but BREED dogs..... Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against breeding dogs/breeders.

If you really want one, get one, but it should be a decision you feel good about, not something you need to talk yourself into or have justified on a public internet forum.


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## selzer

I think you can go either way. 

On the one route, you are not supporting a breeding that is questionable/oops/whatever, the pups will be 1 pup tougher to sell and properly home, and the owners will be that much less likely to repeat a less than stellar breeding practice. 

On the other, you get a dog that is well-within your budget, fully understanding that any live critter can run you into money down the road, due to health, behavior, injury, etc. While you will be paying a small amount for the dog, the breeder is not going to be raking in the cash at $200 a pup, given they have their first vet visit, are wormed and given the first shots. 

Any dog can have health or behavior or temperament issues. In fact, most will. I mean, they all die of something. They all require training. Temperament is what it is, but not everyone likes, wants or needs the same type of temperament in their dog. 

I think you have to consider regrets. Will you regret buying a dog from a questionable background? Will you regret it if the dog has a serious health condition? Will you regret your choice if the dog's temperament is too soft, or too sharp, or too drivy, or two laid back? Will you regret having chosen not to get the puppy?


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## selzer

Liesje said:


> If your friends are charging money for puppies then they are breeders. Not sure why so many people say they aren't breeders, but BREED dogs..... Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against breeding dogs/breeders.
> 
> If you really want one, get one, but it should be a decision you feel good about, not something you need to talk yourself into or have justified on a public internet forum.


Either way they are breeders. If they are charging, if they are giving them away. If they were responsible for (owned) the bitch at the time of conception, they are breeders. How or why the dog was bred, really doesn't matter, unless they sent it off for boarding and it came back bred, without permission of the owner, or something equally screwy, like they sent it in for teeth cleaning and the vet did a surgery to inseminate her unbeknownst to the owner.

The litter owners are breeders. There are just not that many situations that would make that untrue.


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## Pax8

If you do get a pup from your friend, I would look into a good health insurance for the dog. Any time I don't know the dog's health background (and often even if I do!) I expect the worst. There are some insurances that will even cover a dog for issues such as hip dysplasia as long as it is not present in the dog at the time you buy the insurance plan. Just something else to look into and think about. It would help relieve some financial burden if you do get the puppy and it ends up having every health issue under the sun. Or at best, it gives you some security.


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## Packen

Check out the litter and if the pups are solid (no sound sensitivity, good food and prey drives, no skittishness) get one! and don't forget to post pics


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## Colie CVT

Honestly, it doesn't matter in the end WHERE you get a dog from. You never have a 100% guarantee in life. Dogs are dogs. Some days things happen. Some days you get a lemon in the middle of what was solid, strong structured dogs. All the careful testing and breeding cannot 100% prevent accidents, and many different diseases do have a component to them that deals with environmental factors. Not all of course, but it isn't always just step one. Having a good idea of the background makes the chances for a lemon less, but they are never 100% cleared!

My first dog was a rescue puppy. She had a wonderful temperament, was my heart dog. But she had dog aggression due to my being a 17 year old kid with no real understanding of socialization, she had bilateral HD and IBS (that was originally misdiagnosed as EPI). With all the things I went through with her, I was worried about unknown background.

My golden was kind of a gut feeling. He comes from basically a hobby breeder. She gets dogs from kennels that breed for nice temperament and good hunting dogs, and frankly I was kind of nervous about what to expect until I got down there and met the puppies and the parents. The dogs did have health clearances, and I could see them all the way back 3 generations on either side. It was the temperament of the sire that made me feel this was right. He was one solid, well mannered and gentle dog. From what I have met of puppies fathered by him (he is a popular stud in this area), they have the same general temperament that my Myles does. He is easy going, happy, friendly and gets along well with others. He had a random decision that strangers were scary one day when he was 8 months, and it has been work to get him past it, but hands down, I couldn't have chosen a better dog. People constantly threaten to steal him. I never have to worry about him.

When I started looking for another white shepherd, I came across a breeder I have gotten two dogs from. Health clearances, high PennHIPs on some of them, conformation is right, temperament is wonderful. I technically "adopted" my older female as she was done being used for breeding, but the puppy was a total buy. Only saw a few pictures and videos of him as a 3 month old. He was exactly what I wanted. The breeder has been a dream to work with.

Basically long story short, everyone is going to have their opinions based on their experiences. There is never a harm in meeting or looking at dogs. Leave doors open and when the right one comes along, you will know.  So far my gut has yet to steer me wrong with my beloved four legged kids!


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## Sabis mom

If she is really paying for vet exam, vacs and deworming then at 200 a pup she certainly isn't making money.
Check out the parents, and the conditions, INSIST on vet records and take your puppy home. DO NOT take her word that the pups have been to the vet. 

But here is my warning and some friendly advice. Shadow was free, I have spent thousands of dollars, countless hours and cried an ocean of tears. She's 3. And for her, it may not ever improve.

The love of my life, my partner, my best friend died as a result of a genetic disease that I had no knowledge of until it up and smacked me in the face. She was my world, I thought she was fine, healthy and strong. Then she wasn't, and then she was gone.

Buy insurance and keep it paid up. I wish you the very best of luck, from the bottom of my heart.


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## sehrgutcsg

David Winners said:


> When someone wants a rescue, I sit them down and have a long talk about what they expect out of a dog and what their level of training and exercise commitment are.
> 
> Then I do my best to talk them out of any breed bias they have and to explain that temperament and energy level are far more important.
> 
> Then I take them to the shelter and do my best to pair them up with an adult dog that suits their family.
> 
> This has worked pretty well for me in the past.
> 
> David Winners





Liesje said:


> If your friends are charging money for puppies then they are breeders. Not sure why so many people say they aren't breeders, but BREED dogs..... Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against breeding dogs/breeders.
> 
> If you really want one, get one, but it should be a decision you feel good about, not something you need to talk yourself into or have justified on a public internet forum.





selzer said:


> Either way they are breeders. If they are charging, if they are giving them away. If they were responsible for (owned) the bitch at the time of conception, they are breeders. How or why the dog was bred, really doesn't matter, unless they sent it off for boarding and it came back bred, without permission of the owner, or something equally screwy, like they sent it in for teeth cleaning and the vet did a surgery to inseminate her unbeknownst to the owner.
> 
> The litter owners are breeders. There are just not that many situations that would make that untrue.


I have quoted three individuals whom I respect. I am not disagreeing with them. Forget the fact that this is not an ideal situation to go into. I did the same as you and I lucked out, we can work around every issue ( 17 weeks and dealing with going down stairs that have open spaced on the kicker panel ). Your daughter's dog will suffer and in turn so will your daughter. That's the bad news ! I needed to grasp the situation. If your daughter's dog breaks a leg, because there's 40 pound 16 week old pup wants to play, it will be heartache, and I know you never would put your child through that... On the other hand, breeder or no breeder accepting money even small amounts without the due diligence process ( hips -elbows - health screenings - temp issues is not a great success story from the get go. I know the member's here have been hard on you. My animal is not perfect and neither is their's that cost $2500.00, but a $200 pup with the hick ups can result in an $1500.00 doggie in 36 hours so, if your a gambler, the choice is yours..

It's time to get the books out, and do just a tad more to gain the correct perspective...:wub: Best of luck in everything !!


----------



## Betty

JakodaCD OA said:


> here's my opinion for what it's worth..
> 
> These puppies are going to need a home regardless. If they ended up in rescue, you'd probably adopt one if you had the chance..
> 
> My feeling is this,,go meet the parents of the puppies, start there, check out her place, check out the dogs, if you LIKE their temperament, I say go for it..They are going to need homes anyhow.
> 
> BUT, if you do get one, go in with the knowledge that, you don't really know the health background (hips and elbow status) on the parents because the owner didn't bother to xray them..If she says, "well there are no problems",,what is she houdini? (not being sarcastic) There is no way of knowing hip/elbow status without xrays.
> 
> I think if you want to do this, go in with the knowledge you may have an issue down the road or you may not. Just keep that in mind.
> 
> Again, the way I figure it, is, these puppies could be in rescue and you'd probably want to adopt one and maybe know less about them than you do now.
> 
> MEET the parents/check out the place, go from there..Just my 2
> cents


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

My heart dog came from a similar situation. We lost him to the march of time and I still miss him each and every day.

When you see the pups evaluate them by taking them away from the litter, mom and owners, preferably to somewhere they have never been before. See how they react in the new situation. Are they engaging you? Confident? Are they terrified or curious about their new surroundings?

If you can startle them, (something like dropping a metal lid on concrete) do they recover? 

Good luck.


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## Lark

I have a small dog and a GSD. I would have been much more scared to bring a large breed puppy home to a small dog then to have an adult GSD that has been tested around small dogs. I agree with Boomer on that point. 

But that said, I am sure many people have had German Shepherd puppies around chihuahuas and with careful supervision it will be ok. Good luck on Sunday!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

One of my heart dogs also came from a BYB that I rescued,,I didn't pay a dime for her, got her at 12 weeks old, she was a tazmanian devil, turned out to be one of the best , smartest, most titled dogs I'll ever have..Sure she ended up with bad knees, surgery, corrected, life is life


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## YORCHI

Thank you again for the replies. I am reading everything and talking it over with my wife. We are taking this very seriously and really considering what to do. Like I've said before, we've never had to buy a dog. They were always just given to us or showed up one day. What I am reading a lot of are stories of people that spent the time researching and the money on a dog from a professional breeder and still encountered the same problems that I'm being warned about. 

I like the reference about buying a lemon, and I think that kind of puts in perspective for us. I'll keep everyone updated for sure. Right now I am leaning towards not buying this dog because my gut feeling and instinct is telling me that buying a dog is still wrong. It would have to take some deep convincing once I'm there and for all of the things on my mental checklist to come back cleared before I decide.


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## YORCHI

To clarify my mental checklist:
1) Are the parents extremely over aggressive?
2) Are the parents cowards?
3) Are the parents chained or kept away for a reason?
4) Are the parents living conditions the same that I would provide?
5) Is the litter active?
6) Are they easily startled and don't recover?
7) Do they look and feel alive and active?
8) Are their living conditions the same that I would provide?
9) How did my friend get the parents?
10) How many other litters have they had?
11) Does she have vet records of the parents?
12) Is she going to have them fixed now?
13) What is she going to do if she doesn't sell them all?
14) Which puppy is the most/least active?
15) Do the look sickly?
16) Does my instinct tell me that something is wrong or not right?

Can someone add to this list?


----------



## wolfstraum

The point is that you have a better chance of a healthy dog when the dice are loaded via a good breeder.....many of the people with problems here thought they did research and got a good breeder and did not....the good breeder who produces alot of stable solid good pups does not have people on here extolling them because they found their pup and did not come back. Nor do they have people coming here with problems because the breeder will help them in the event there is a problem.

Overall - if this is an ooops litter, I still don't think $200 is much more than covering all the expenses - from vet care to increased utilities like water! - of raising the litter given she feeds well and has the pups vetted.

I totally agree with what Betty suggests to see if the pup is stable and has decent temperament...

Lee


----------



## Galathiel

I'm not sure that I saw the pups were going to have an actual vet exam. I took it to mean the breeder would be deworming and giving the shots. That cuts a lot of their cost down. I'm not going to suggest one way or the other. I've had both. My BYB dogs were great pets, but some had health issues, others didn't. Some had temperament issues, some didn't. My current dog has great, solid temperament (still puppy-headed though) and sound, health tested parents. It's too soon to tell, however, what will develop in the future.


----------



## my boy diesel

i would hazard a guess that these types of 'breeders' who claim to not be breeders dont even take the puppies in to a vet but rather do a vaccine at home and call it good
at 200 per puppy and 10 puppies for a total of 2k 
that 2k would go a long ways towards paying for one vet visit for all the puppies

one puppys fee would cover the entire group for a vet check for them all

you cant tell me 2k tax free isnt a nice pay off for feeding the bitch a bit more for a few months and putting up with some puppy poo
usually they boot em out the door by 6 weeks due to the above


----------



## selzer

YORCHI said:


> Thank you again for the replies. I am reading everything and talking it over with my wife. We are taking this very seriously and really considering what to do. Like I've said before, we've never had to buy a dog. They were always just given to us or showed up one day. What I am reading a lot of are stories of people that spent the time researching and the money on a dog from a professional breeder and still encountered the same problems that I'm being warned about.
> 
> I like the reference about buying a lemon, and I think that kind of puts in perspective for us. I'll keep everyone updated for sure. *Right now I am leaning towards not buying this dog because my gut feeling and instinct is telling me that buying a dog is still wrong.* It would have to take some deep convincing once I'm there and for all of the things on my mental checklist to come back cleared before I decide.


Could you elaborate on this a little?


----------



## Melissa98409

I read most of this thread, and most of the people on here have offered you some great advice and provided some valuable tips of making an informed decision on this litter. 

I can only add that I am the proud owner of a BYB GSD that was tossed away and left to starve, because they couldn't make money off of him and couldn't be bothered with doing the right thing and bringing him down to the shelter and surrendering him. He was picked up by animal control and I fostered/adopted him, but not after he was practically starved to death and suffering from Demodex.

I am telling you this, because I agree with the posters on here who say "the litter is here". There are only a few options left for this litter. Sell, surrender, or abandon. One can only hope that option one or two are the only options your friend is willing to consider. 

This is your family pet. It is important that you can enjoy the puppy and provide him with the most loving home and best of care for his entire life.

I will add that in my particular situation, I have a beautiful, healthy, happy, 13 month old pup. He's well adjusted, has a great temper, and to date has had no health issues other than food allergies. Like everyone has said, it's a crap shoot. However, if you are willing to roll with whatever comes with this puppy..then go for it. You may wind up with the perfect dog. AND...in my opinion...you are rescuing it. You're just going about it in a different way. Good luck and I hope you find the perfect GSD for your family.


----------



## wyoung2153

YORCHI said:


> To clarify my mental checklist:
> 1) Are the parents extremely over aggressive?
> 2) Are the parents cowards?
> 3) Are the parents chained or kept away for a reason?
> 4) Are the parents living conditions the same that I would provide?
> 5) Is the litter active?
> 6) Are they easily startled and don't recover?
> 7) Do they look and feel alive and active?
> 8) Are their living conditions the same that I would provide?
> 9) How did my friend get the parents?
> 10) How many other litters have they had?
> 11) Does she have vet records of the parents?
> 12) Is she going to have them fixed now?
> 13) What is she going to do if she doesn't sell them all?
> 14) Which puppy is the most/least active?
> 15) Do the look sickly?
> 16) Does my instinct tell me that something is wrong or not right?
> 
> Can someone add to this list?


Add. that you want the puppy to get examined at the vets BEFORE adoption and you want records. You should not pay for this. 

I do just want to add my thoughts on breeders.. because I know you are tryingto educate yourself. My experience with breeders is this.. bought from what I would consider a BYB, or just a really bad breeder (conditions, no contract, not able to meet the parents, etc.) Titan is 4 yrs now, and I have very minimal problems with him. And temperament wise, he is great and in the few areas we have issues, I know for a fact it was my fault. Thought we were stepping into some steep issues but turned out for the better.. I did however buy from a reputable breeder and got the pick pup, who ultimately was put down at 7 months for unforseen issues. 

So one would think I prefer the other over a reputable breeder but I don't. I prefer neither actually. It's all in what you want. If I wanted a specific type of dog (SAR, IPO, sport, just plain solid dog with drive, etc), I would go to a reputable breeder because the likelihood of me getting a puppy with that temerment is much higher than if I went elsewhere. If I just wanted a pet that I was ok with just house manners, not to be taken anywhere necessarily, etc. I would rescue or go elsewhere, with the knowledge I have gained on this forum. 

The ONE comment you made that confused me was that you did not understand why we go to breeders when there are so many to adopt and so many that need homes, which is why you really want to rescue...... but then you limit yourself down to breed, sex, age, and temperament, which is no better than the latter IMO.

I am glad I read the whole thread though and see you are serious about this and taking in all the comments. I personally think that if this is what you want, and you are sure, then go for it, they need homes regardless and if you can meet the parents and all that jazz that people have suggested, you should be fine. Every thing is a gamble and even the highest paid breeders have their issues, so make the decision for yourself and just always, breeder or not, be prepared for things to fall apart and know what you will do in the case that it happens.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Melissa98409 said:


> I read most of this thread, and most of the people on here have offered you some great advice and provided some valuable tips of making an informed decision on this litter.
> 
> I can only add that I am the proud owner of a BYB GSD that was tossed away and left to starve, because they couldn't make money off of him and couldn't be bothered with doing the right thing and bringing him down to the shelter and surrendering him. He was picked up by animal control and I fostered/adopted him, but not after he was practically starved to death and suffering from Demodex.
> 
> I am telling you this, because I agree with the posters on here who say "the litter is here". There are only a few options left for this litter. Sell, surrender, or abandon. One can only hope that option one or two are the only options your friend is willing to consider.
> 
> This is your family pet. It is important that you can enjoy the puppy and provide him with the most loving home and best of care for his entire life.
> 
> I will add that in my particular situation, I have a beautiful, healthy, happy, 13 month old pup. He's well adjusted, has a great temper, and to date has had no health issues other than food allergies. Like everyone has said, it's a crap shoot. However, if you are willing to roll with whatever comes with this puppy..then go for it. You may wind up with the perfect dog. AND...in my opinion...you are rescuing it. You're just going about it in a different way. Good luck and I hope you find the perfect GSD for your family.


 Nice post Melissa. 

Who cares if the friend is a "breeder" or not. Whether they can make any money on 6 puppies or not. That is 6 puppies MBD per post #28 I think.

There are 6 puppies that need homes or will wind up in rescue/shelter. 
In Ca., Gsd puppies will fly out of a shelter so fast it will make your head spin.

When people say you shouldn't buy from someone like this, I always wonder what they think should happen to the pups.Should they be drowned like some used to do, with unwanted or excess puppies.

They say but you know nothing about the background of the parents and then come the horror stories of all the BYB bred dogs health and temperament issues. 

Yet, it's ok to go to a rescue or animal shelter because you are doing a good thing saving an animal. Except, that animal shelters and rescues rarely know the background of health and temperament on their dogs either.

I've had about 70% of the dogs I've owned (about a dozen or so) from unknown heritage and I guess I've just been lucky because all were healthy, other than the usual stuff. One only had a temperament problem and the rest were fine.

The best dog I ever had (I won't compare her to the two that are still alive) cost me 50 bucks from a situation similar to the OPs. 

If I were able I could write a book on the qualities of that GSD. She was something very special and lived to be over thirteen years old.

You are not going to stop this type of breeding in the U.S.. It's legal in most cases and will continue.

The OP is not going to solve the over population of pets problem no matter what they do.


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## my boy diesel

6 puppies = roughly 1200 then 
still tax free monies either way

*you are rescuing it. *
no not really
if it was in a shelter they would be rescuing it
this is not a rescue dog it is a purchased dog 

i have nothing against purchasing a dog or cat or whatever as long as it is from a good breeder who health tests and the whole shebang

but calling buying a dog a rescue is a misnomer imo
this puppy is not on a death row somewhere nor living under an abandoned shack

it is a purchase whether the breeder is a good or bad one or if it was an accidental litter or not

now had the breeder spent all the money they are getting on the puppys and gotten them dewormed all along (guessing that is a big fat NO) vaccinated all along and spayed or neutered that could be considered adopting and not purchasing but it really is not rescuing

some of it is terminology but using the wrong terminology to make you feel warm and fuzzy is fudging it and again that is my opinion


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## Melissa98409

Jack's Dad said:


> Nice post Melissa.
> 
> Who cares if the friend is a "breeder" or not. Whether they can make any money on 6 puppies or not. That is 6 puppies MBD per post #28 I think.
> 
> There are 6 puppies that need homes or will wind up in rescue/shelter.
> In Ca., Gsd puppies will fly out of a shelter so fast it will make your head spin.
> 
> When people say you shouldn't buy from someone like this, I always wonder what they think should happen to the pups.Should they be drowned like some used to do, with unwanted or excess puppies.
> 
> They say but you know nothing about the background of the parents and then come the horror stories of all the BYB bred dogs health and temperament issues.
> 
> Yet, it's ok to go to a rescue or animal shelter because you are doing a good thing saving an animal. Except, that animal shelters and rescues rarely know the background of health and temperament on their dogs either.
> 
> I've had about 70% of the dogs I've owned (about a dozen or so) from unknown heritage and I guess I've just been lucky because all were healthy, other than the usual stuff. One only had a temperament problem and the rest were fine.
> 
> The best dog I ever had (I won't compare her to the two that are still alive) cost me 50 bucks from a situation similar to the OPs.
> 
> If I were able I could write a book on the qualities of that GSD. She was something very special and lived to be over thirteen years old.
> 
> You are not going to stop this type of breeding in the U.S.. It's legal in most cases and will continue.
> 
> The OP is not going to solve the over population of pets problem no matter what they do.


Thanks. I agree...I always wonder what they think should happen to the puppies too. 

I am with you too. Every great pet I have had has come from the shelter and they have all had lives and experiences before they came into my home that I will no nothing about. That said...I tend to only adopt the tragic cases, so maybe they are just so overly appreciative of having a loving home that they are afraid to screw it up by being rotten. LOL


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## JakodaCD OA

most rescues/shelters are going to charge a fee as well, some alot more than 200$.

Let's say some of these puppies end up in a rescue and that rescue charges 300$, your still paying for a puppy.

Freebies are far and few in between,


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## my boy diesel

rescues in general do more than just vaccinate the pup 
at least good ones do
they screen homes very heavily too or at least good ones do
the litters i see advertised by bybs all over do not care where the puppies go as long as they get their money


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## Eiros

Even if I have to pay for a pup, I'd rather see my resources go to something I support (helping animals, bettering the breed) than someone who isn't responsible with their animals, or worse, just trying to make money off puppies. 

"You can't change the world so don't bother trying" mentality isn't something I can really stand behind. Nothing wrong with living your life according to what you think is right. 

I think everyone made some good suggestions to the OP, and I'm sure they will do what they think is right!!


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## Melissa98409

But what do you think should happen to the puppies from these terrible BYB's? Do you think they should be abandond and left to die like Jericho was? How about drowned or whatever other unthinkable methods that are used to get rid of these less than perfect puppies? Do you think they should be left in a box in front of a grocery store with a free sign on them to go to whatever person passes by good or bad? 

I'm curious why this person isn't rescuing this dog from the potential tragic life I see regularly?


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## Madisonmj97

I personally think it is ridiculous to pay 1 or 2 grand for a puppy... like you can get a puppy from someone who takes great care of the pups and parents and it still be an amazing dog with no health issues or temperament issues, for just only half that price. I mean I understand about the shelter situation but that's the previous owners fault for getting a dog and not taking care of it. But that's just my opinion.


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## Eiros

Melissa98409 said:


> But what do you think should happen to the puppies from these terrible BYB's? Do you think they should be abandond and left to die like Jericho was? How about drowned or whatever other unthinkable methods that are used to get rid of these less than perfect puppies? Do you think they should be left in a box in front of a grocery store with a free sign on them to go to whatever person passes by good or bad?
> 
> I'm curious why this person isn't rescuing this dog from the potential tragic life I see regularly?


What tragic life? Going home with another person that doesnt want to pay more than $200 for a GSD? If I had a choice, and I DO, I'd rather give my money to a shelter than a BYB. *That's all Im saying.* The only reason people breed dogs like this is because people will buy them. I'm not that person. I see nothing wrong with that.


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## Madisonmj97

Eiros said:


> What tragic life? Going home with another person that doesnt want to pay more than $200 for a GSD? If I had a choice, and I DO, I'd rather give my money to a shelter than a BYB. *That's all Im saying.* The only reason people breed dogs like this is because people will buy them. I'm not that person. I see nothing wrong with that.


I'd pay 700 or maybe 800... no more. But yep, I just see no point. And im talking about a pure gsd puppy. not just any puppy


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## Merciel

Melissa98409 said:


> I'm curious why this person isn't rescuing this dog from the potential tragic life I see regularly?


“I consider him a rescue.” | Ruffly Speaking

about sums up my views on that.

If you buy a puppy from an ignorant or unethical breeder, you are supporting the production of more puppies from that breeder. It's a values decision.

There may be times when it's not a _bad_ values decision, or when circumstances make it impossible to say no. But it is what it is, and I think it is always important to be as clear-sighted as possible about what one is doing and why, and what the consequences of that decision are likely to be.


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## my boy diesel

*But what do you think should happen to the puppies from these terrible BYB's? Do you think they should be abandond and left to die like Jericho was? How about drowned or whatever other unthinkable methods that are used to get rid of these less than perfect puppies? Do you think they should be left in a box in front of a grocery store with a free sign on them to go to whatever person passes by good or bad? 
* 


yes this is the mentality bybs play on
they are not at risk for being drowned and we are not saying dont buy them because they are "less than perfect"
there will always be a market for theses kinds of breeders to play to

but that does not mean we should support them "because the puppies will die! horrors!"

if the puppies went to a shelter as others said they will fly out so fast your head would spin and probably be fully vetted when they do 
perhaps homes that were screened ensuring a better life for the pups
that would not be the worst thing in the world

merciels article is excellent and all should read it!
http://rufflyspeaking.net/i-consider-him-a-rescue/


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## sehrgutcsg

Melissa98409 said:


> But what do you think should happen to the puppies from these terrible BYB's? Do you think they should be abandond and left to die like Jericho was? How about drowned or whatever other unthinkable methods that are used to get rid of these less than perfect puppies? Do you think they should be left in a box in front of a grocery store with a free sign on them to go to whatever person passes by good or bad?
> 
> I'm curious why this person isn't rescuing this dog from the potential tragic life I see regularly?


Melissa, When the early (1930's - 1940's ) breeder's in W & E Germany had a puppy that was defective, a true champion bloodline, all the necessary steps were taken to promote a GSD worthy of the NAME SAKE. Please tell me what happened to that animal.. ?? I will not discuss the protocol.. Sorry, not here - not ever .. You missed the point. _No steps were taken._ This never should have occured on pourpose. 4 million animals a year, my dear in the USA alone. Tell me how to solve your issues and _this dilemma_ > ?

The puppy picture you posted is all the proof I need.. You were very lucky !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Muskeg

I've struggled with the ethics of breeding dogs, of buying dogs, and of rescues- and so-called "rescues". Unfortunately I've seen more than one rescue that is basically just a glorified distributor for "oops" litters and puppy mills. 

I used to be like you and think I'd never buy a dog. My first dog was from the pound, my second was a stray I took in. Great dogs, no outstanding health or behavioral issues. But I had a clear idea of what I wanted in my next dog, and found that in a purebred puppy. She cost $1,200 from a reputable breeder. 

In a perfect world, all pups would come from health tested parents, with ideal temperament for the breed, and be raised in a loving home and sold to committed owners who would keep the dog for life. This is pretty much the case in Scandinavia, and parts of the US are getting pretty close- New England, the Northwest, northern Midwest States. These places ship up dogs from the south all the time because there are not enough local dogs for adoption. 

There is no reason to feel guilty about buying a dog. You give that dog a home for the rest of her life, and you are not responsible for the pet overpopulation problem.


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## my boy diesel

*and you are not responsible for the pet overpopulation problem.*
but when you buy from bybs yes you are

if you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem

purchasing only from a responsible and reputable breeder who breeds the right way or only rescuing 
both are a part of the solution


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## Jack's Dad

my boy diesel said:


> and you are not responsible for the pet overpopulation problem.
> but when you buy from bybs yes you are
> 
> *if you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem
> *
> purchasing only from a responsible and reputable breeder who breeds the right way or only rescuing
> both are a part of the solution


Typical guilt trip attempt.

Like if you drive a car you are responsible for climate change.

I read the article Merciel and you seem to like. It is a very emotional plea, that's not unlike AR folks.

I don't know where you find all the rescues that have the available fosters, to vet all these dogs. Most of the ones in my area are either hoarders or brokers. The hoarder type will want your first born before they will release a dog and the broker type move them as fast as possible to keep them from being euthanized at kill shelters.

About two weeks ago we went to Costco. The Petsmart next to them had a rescue with dogs available I went and looked before we went in the store. They had a two year old, one yr. old and puppy that were GSDs.
I left the store before my wife and went back. The two yr. old male was being adopted right then. 
I took a card from the rescue. When I got home I looked it up online. They are a large group that primarily pulls dogs from the south and ships them up north for adoption.
They started up recently in CA and the dogs we saw were pulled from Kern County and brought to the county I live in because they are more easily adopted here.

By the way the cost of the 2yr. old GSD was $350. No vetting, no foster. Pulled from a kill shelter in one county and sold in another.

Rescues could stay busy cleaning up their own act instead of telling others how to behave and what they are or aren't allowed to buy.


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## Melissa98409

I don't have the answer. I don't know how to solve it. Legislation is in place to punish this behavior, but only if they are reported and enforcement is not swift. Even at that, it is apparently not tough enough, because the problem still persists.

Let me be clear....I do not support backyard breeding. I am doing my part to help the animals I can and educate the public on the importance of adopting from the shelter. Regardless of pedigree. 

You are absolutely right. I am lucky to have Jericho. However, part of his journey is to educate. He goes with me everywhere and I use his story to educate the people I meet against irresponsible breeding and the mistreatment of animals and the vital role that shelters play in our community. 

I pose the question of what should happen to these puppies that are already here, because I am genuinely curious about what the opinion is in regards to the lives that are here before us. Should they be seized and remanded to the custody of the shelters/rescues (which happens if they are reported, prosecuted, etc.)? Should they be euthanized because they are not from a proper breeder? Should they be given away?


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## scarfish

Madisonmj97 said:


> I personally think it is ridiculous to pay 1 or 2 grand for a puppy...


well, i paid $1200, maybe $1250 can't remember for my last dog and couldn't be happier. i'm sure a lot of people paid as much or more and are happy with their dog. it sucks you feel that way to put an exact price on a family member. have a great day!


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## Melissa98409

Jack's Dad said:


> Typical guilt trip attempt.
> 
> Like if you drive a car you are responsible for climate change.
> 
> I read the article Merciel and you seem to like. It is a very emotional plea, that's not unlike AR folks.
> 
> I don't know where you find all the rescues that have the available fosters, to vet all these dogs. Most of the ones in my area are either hoarders or brokers. The hoarder type will want your first born before they will release a dog and the broker type move them as fast as possible to keep them from being euthanized at kill shelters.
> 
> About two weeks ago we went to Costco. The Petsmart next to them had a rescue with dogs available I went and looked before we went in the store. They had a two year old, one yr. old and puppy that were GSDs.
> I left the store before my wife and went back. The two yr. old male was being adopted right then.
> I took a card from the rescue. When I got home I looked it up online. They are a large group that primarily pulls dogs from the south and ships them up north for adoption.
> They started up recently in CA and the dogs we saw were pulled from Kern County and brought to the county I live in because they are more easily adopted here.
> 
> By the way the cost of the 2yr. old GSD was $350. No vetting, no foster. Pulled from a kill shelter in one county and sold in another.
> 
> Rescues could stay busy cleaning up their own act instead of telling others how to behave and what they are or aren't allowed to buy.


No kidding...we have one "rescue" here who charges up to 700-800.00 for a mixed breed dog that isn't even house broken. I see them all of the time in pet stores and it amazes me that they ever adopt an animal out.


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## Merciel

Melissa98409 said:


> I pose the question of what should happen to these puppies that are already here, because I am genuinely curious about what the opinion is in regards to the lives that are here before us. Should they be seized and remanded to the custody of the shelters/rescues (which happens if they are reported, prosecuted, etc.)? Should they be euthanized because they are not from a proper breeder? Should they be given away?


If you ask me? They should get loving homes, same as any other dogs, and they should be spayed and neutered, and their breeders should not be given any incentive to do it again.

Striking the balance between all those things is difficult, though, as striking the balance in any situation with competing and conflicting considerations tends to be.

In the situation that the OP seems to be in, the key consideration for me personally would be (1) is this a puppy that I would want to give a loving lifelong home?; and then (2) if I buy the puppy for $200, do I think it is likely that this breeder will produce another litter again?

If the answers to those two questions are "yes" and "no," respectively, then if I personally were in that situation, I'd probably buy the puppy and think nothing more of it.

It's when both answers are "yes" that you have to stop and think about which of those two things matters more to you. No right or wrong answer there, I think. Which one you pick depends on your goals and values, and that's something everybody decides for themselves.


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## Melissa98409

scarfish said:


> well, i paid $1200, maybe $1250 can't remember for my last dog and couldn't be happier. i'm sure a lot of people paid as much or more and are happy with their dog. it sucks you feel that way to put an exact price on a family member. have a great day!


I paid $100.00 for Jericho and couldn't be more happy with him. I happened to pay much less then you and found the same happiness.


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## scarfish

Melissa98409 said:


> I paid $100.00 for Jericho and couldn't be more happy with him. I happened to pay much less then you and found the same happiness.


what's your point? my point is you can pay as much as you want and still be happy. you shouldn't knock people for what they paid for their dog. it's rude and doesn't gain anything.


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## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> I read the article Merciel and you seem to like. It is a very emotional plea, that's not unlike AR folks.


I really don't know where you get that conclusion from it.

I'd ask for clarification, but then I realized I'd probably be walking into a big ol' blind spot of willful misreading, and I don't have the energy to do that today.


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## Melissa98409

scarfish said:


> what's your point? my point is you can pay as much as you want and still be happy. you shouldn't knock people for what they paid for their dog. it's rude and doesn't gain anything.


I'm not knocking you for what you paid for your dog. I'm pointing out that you can be happy with a pup no matter what the cost.


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## DTS

I feel like the check list you provided a few pages back was a good start. 
I understand not wanting to pay a ton of money for a dog. I was there once. 
I have 2 GSDs from each side of the spectrum. 
A $250 dog and a $1100 dog from a "reputable breeder". 
The only thing I can say is that you need to prepare yourself for what may lie ahead if you get this dog.
She might seem fine to you now, but things can change. Be prepared to possibly spend a lot at the vet because you found out she has allergies to fleas or certain foods or another underlying illness that may not be seen at the time. 
Or later on 6-8 months you might need classes because your dog has fearful tendencies even though you did everything right.
Does this person have a health guarantee? If so, what are you responsible for and what will they do in the event your pup has a congenital defect? Are you expected to pay all the vet bills of the diagnosis and they will refund you or are you stuck? 
All these things can happen, NOT saying they will, but it's possible.
Just some things to think about.


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## scarfish

Melissa98409 said:


> I'm not knocking you for what you paid for your dog. I'm pointing out that you can be happy with a pup no matter what the cost.


OK, i don't deny that. i'm just saying it was rude of that dude to express his feelings that paying a grand for dog is ridicules. so i'm ridicules for paying $1200? it was a rude comment and if anyone has a problem with me thinking it was rude PM me.


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## LoveEcho

God, these arguments get old. And they go absolutely NOWHERE. OP, go with your gut. The person who said "people like your friend are why there are so many dogs in shelters" was spot on, but the pups do need homes. If you feel ok about it and are only charging enough to cover puppy vet visit, go for it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree they do get old

But I also agree with Merciel's post .

I to, don't want to support a BYB, but there are BYB's and there are BYB's..

There are BREEDERS out there that may health test, but I may still consider them a BYB doing it for the money..

I've paid zilch for puppies and I've paid up to 1500 bucks for puppies. It's not the money (tho I am no millionaire!), it's what I'm getting and possibly getting into that I deal with.

In the end, all puppies/dogs deserve a good home no matter where they came from.


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## Jack's Dad

Merciel said:


> I really don't know where you get that conclusion from it.
> 
> I'd ask for clarification, but then I realized I'd probably be walking into a big ol' blind spot of willful misreading, and I don't have the energy to do that today.


I also don't have the energy for a long response and I type really slow.

The lady early on says. "There is a sacred rule upon which our entire society is built: *The end does not justify the means." *

I didn't know that. It however is the emotional tone that I'm talking about.

She claims that by people spreading the word that they may have made mistakes in the past but won't do it again (mistake being buying puppies from the wrong kind of breeder or worse pet stores) that we can actually stop stores from selling puppies or even put them out of business. 
She claims: 


*"And if enough are not purchased, that pet store will go out of business. Don't think it can happen? It does all the time. When I was a kid, everybody got every pet from a pet store, and there were little mom and pop pet stores in every town. Now, I can think of only four or five within two hours of me. Those are staying in business because they have the tiny designer dogs of the moment; I haven't seen a big dog in a pet store in New England in years. IT'S WORKING.*
*And if enough pet stores go out of business, Hunte will go out of business. And when that happens, thousands of puppy mills will simply shutter their doors. There will be a massive increase in dog auctions for six months and then they'll blessedly go away. And THAT is the true end we want. *
*Don't settle for anything else. "*


Well I am guessing but I think I'm older than her and I believe she is way off. Through out my life I have known very few people who got dogs from pet stores. Yes a few but very few. The reason IMO she is not finding as many mom and pop pet stores is because of Petco and Petsmart and other big box chains. Not to mention all the supermarkets, Taget, Wal-Mart, Kmart etc plus online have pet supplies. Mom and Pop pet store aren't dying from some cause. They are dying like other small business in this country. Tried finding a shoe cobbler lately?



Anyway her article is a long version of the idea that if you buy from a BYB or pet store then there will be more animals in shelters/rescues and by extension we (the buyers) are killing dogs.


I'm not going to take that guilt trip but others are certainly free to do so.


LoveEcho: Could you show me some topics that haven't been hashed and re-hashed many times over.


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## JakodaCD OA

actually not to go OT, but I will, they are in the process of passing a bill here in CT to stop the sales of puppies/kittens here..Only ones that could be sold, are from rescue's..hope it passes


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## onyx'girl

JakodaCD OA said:


> actually not to go OT, but I will, they are in the process of passing a bill here in CT to stop the sales of puppies/kittens here..Only ones that could be sold, are from rescue's..hope it passes


That would be great, but I bet there will be some shady dealings where some rescues are concerned. There is a profit to be had in the rescue world....as long as it goes to the right sources for saving more in shelters, I'm all for it.


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## LoveEcho

onyx'girl said:


> That would be great, but I bet there will be some shady dealings where some rescues are concerned. There is a profit to be had in the rescue world....as long as it goes to the right sources for saving more in shelters, I'm all for it.


There are some SERIOUSLY shady "rescues" in CT, too  I'm sure there are in other states, as well. Ugh. 

People can argue the "cheap/free dog vs breeder dog" until they're blue in the face... folks are trying to reinvent the wheel. There will always be great BYB dogs and crappy reputable-breeder dogs.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> Anyway her article is a long version of the idea that if you buy from a BYB or pet store then there will be more animals in shelters/rescues and by extension we (the buyers) are killing dogs.


No, the point is that when you buy a dog from an unsavory breeder to "rescue" it, you are creating incentives for the people who produced that dog to keep doing what they're doing.

It is not "adopting" or "rescuing" to purchase a dog from a pet store. It is a purchase. And when somebody does that, they are creating an incentive for the supply to continue.

If that is not a concern for you, fine, the argument is not relevant to your values. But a decent number of people who know perfectly well where pet store puppies come from and what their parents' living conditions are like, and who think those conditions are _deplorable,_ will nevertheless purchase those dogs because they "consider him a rescue." Pity and emotion drive them to perpetuate the exact things that they claim to despise.

It's not a rescue. It's a purchase. That's the point of that blog post. People are free to do as they like, but they ought to be honest with themselves about the effects of their decisions.

The author is herself a breeder (of conformation show Corgis) so I don't know where all the "AR folks" assumptions are coming from.

And yes, the weight of all those small individual decisions does, in fact, change the world over time. Culture changes. It happens in response to each person evaluating the information at their disposal and making a decision as to what their values are and what kind of world they want to live in.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

actually there ARE alot of shady rescues here in ct. One in particular that is always coming across my radar,,charge 1500 bucks for a reg'd german shepherd puppy,,they are conveniently coming from the south from 'breeders' who have "given" their puppies up to rescue...yeah right


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## Jack's Dad

Well I actually do have some values Merciel and yes things can change a little at a time. 

I'm a bit of a realist though and don't count on human nature to take care of things. I once suggested legislation to weed out the indiscriminate breeders and I was trashed by basically everyone. 

Well if a dog forum isn't interested in legislation to help put a stop to overpopulation then we are stuck with the results of those decisions.
Just like you said.

In many threads on here, some people have been adamantly opposed to spay/neuter regulation as an infringement on their rights. We live with those decisions also.

My reference to AR and rescue is that they both use emotion to further their causes.


----------



## my boy diesel

*Anyway her article is a long version of the idea that if you buy from a BYB or pet store then there will be more animals in shelters/rescues and by extension we (the buyers) are killing dogs.*
it was not about that at all and if you managed to extrapolate that from the article then you did not read it very well i am sorry to say

* It is a very emotional plea, that's not unlike AR folks.*

yeah heavenly days 
"ar folks" who want to stop puppy mills 
how dare anyone try!? 

well in my town there was a very big name pet store that sold puppies for well over 1k per puppy and people boycotted it until it went out
it could happen

a better life for all dogs
the nerve of people


----------



## lhczth

LoveEcho said:


> People can argue the "cheap/free dog vs breeder dog" until they're blue in the face... folks are trying to reinvent the wheel. There will always be great BYB dogs and crappy reputable-breeder dogs.


 *YES!* No matter what people want to believe, the so called "responsible" breeders can not meet the demand nor can most afford to sell pups for the price most buyers want to pay.


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## my boy diesel

but then that leaves us with 
if you cant afford a dog you should not get one
not that cheaper dogs cant be had
maybe if we did like they do in other countries and only certify certain dogs for breeding purposes 
its a sticky wicket for sure


----------



## Jack's Dad

my boy diesel said:


> *Anyway her article is a long version of the idea that if you buy from a BYB or pet store then there will be more animals in shelters/rescues and by extension we (the buyers) are killing dogs.*
> it was not about that at all and if you managed to extrapolate that from the article then you did not read it very well i am sorry to say
> 
> * It is a very emotional plea, that's not unlike AR folks.*
> 
> yeah heavenly days
> "ar folks" who want to stop puppy mills
> how dare anyone try!?
> 
> well in my town there was a very big name pet store that sold puppies for well over 1k per puppy and people boycotted it until it went out
> it could happen
> 
> a better life for all dogs
> the nerve of people


Haha. Well one of us may not have read it very well.









I'm not surprised we didn't get the same take from that article. 

Here is the deal. Until I came on this site I never heard of a BYB and I've had dogs for well over 50 years. 

The reason is that in the real world there are just breeders. Period. For most of the pet population there are no distinctions just breeders. The only people who care about distinctions are those seeking pure bred dogs and most of them don't care either.
The amount of people who can give any background on the pure bred dogs they own? Very few.
You can get pure bred dogs any day of the week right there on Craigs List and that is about as much interest in all of these topics that the average person has.

That is what we deal with, not whether some individual buys a dog from his neighbor or friend down the street.


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## onyx'girl

pure bred doesn't equal well bred...


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## The Packman

I haven't read all the post here but just want to agree with the people who said...under these conditions, a friend would give you a puppy.


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## my boy diesel

someone else said it best
just because it might be so doesnt mean we have to encourage it :shrug:


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> But please do not support ignorance and greed by buying from someone who is not even _trying_ to produce good, sound, healthy dogs.





YORCHI said:


> If I find out that she actually is a backyard breeder then I am walking away.


Um... this person is, by definition, a backyard breeder. She has two dogs that she didn't get fixed and she allowed them to have puppies, with no testing, planning, thought, or purpose. The parents weren't even x-rayed. Pretty much anyone who breeds GSDs and doesn't at least do OFA is going to be a BYB in most peoples' eyes.



> There may be better availability of dogs in your area but I am not finding any here. I will not spend 2-4 thousand dollars on a dog, that is not an option for me regardless of how amazing this dog can possibly be.


 Why not? You spend that much on a motorcycle or TV, why not a living creature that will be your companion for 10+ years?



> I made the comment about the 2-4k dog because when I did searches for reputable breeders in my area, that's how much they cost. That is more than my TV, even more than my motorcycle lol


 Yes and why is a properly bred dog less important than a TV or motorcycle? People can afford what they want to afford.



Sunflowers said:


> Why must you have one today? Now? Many of us have waited years and saved enough money until we could afford a well bred dog, and if you can only afford $200 to pay for a puppy, what are you going to do if you need to pay thousands to a vet for healthcare?
> And leaving aside the money issue, if you have a "killer Chihuahua" in your home I would not recommend getting any other dog, much less a German Shepherd puppy.
> A GSD could kill your Chihuahua in an instant, if the little dog annoyed it enough.


Agreed on both counts.



> Is a 3k dollar GSD better than a shelter dog or a dog that someone dumps in the street? What about a dog that got out of the yard and ran around for a while before winding up in my front yard drinking water from the curb?


 Depends on what you mean by "better". Better for what? Does the pedigreed dog have more intrinsic value as a living, sentient creature? Of course not. What you are paying for with a tested and well-bred dog is a certain amount of predictability. All the things you love about GSDs have to be painstakingly selected for by breeders, or they fall by the wayside. There are too many poorly-bred, backyard-bred GSDs out there that have a host of problems--most notably, temperament problems. Shyness and fear-aggression runs rampant in the breed when the dogs chosen to breed are not tested for temperament and character. Many have hip problems, elbow problems, skin and coat problems, allergies, the list goes on.

How do reputable breeders make sure the dogs they are breeding have proper health, character, temperament? Through testing and trialing. They go through great pains to show their dogs in conformation and performance events to compete and prove that they possess the strength, confidence, and temperament a GSD is supposed to have. They are x-rayed to prove their joints are sound. They are tested for genetic diseases. All of this stuff takes time, energy, passion, commitment, and MONEY. Even at $2000 a pup, most breeders are lucky to break even after taking into account all they have spent in time, travel, training, entry fees, vet care, testing etc. for their dogs.



YORCHI said:


> If we're only picking dogs based on them having the ultimate in backgrounds then we're being pretty elitist and it must mean we also only have the finest of everything in our lives. I'm sure we are all married to olympic athletes as well.


It's not "elitist" at all. It's about preserving the qualities that make a GSD a GSD. Some people may use dogs as status symbols, but they are idiots. 



YORCHI said:


> I guess I keep going back to this, if people say to go to a breeder, but there are still lots of bad stories about dogs from breeders, why would I go back to one? Sorry, it rattles my brain, I just want a dog


There is a huge difference between a good reputable breeder, and a BYB. Both are "breeders", but it's like every other thing humans can do: a person can do it poorly, or they can do it well. Any schmuck can throw a dog and a bitch together and let them breed at any time, for any reason, as there are currently no laws or regulations against breeding, nor are they any regulations concerning how to do it properly (unless you are talking about a commercial puppy mill, then there are minimum requirements). In Germany, they DO have regulations concerning breeding the GSD. Over there, you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make sure your dog's genes are strong and healthy and worthy of passing on. In the US there are no such requirement, it's all done on a voluntary basis. 

A reputable breeder is a steward of the breed. They strive to preserve and reproduce the best quality possible, keep the desired qualities of the breed, and keep out unwanted traits. It takes a keen eye, an ethical attitude, and lots of knowledge and experience to be able to do this, so a reputable breeder is constantly studying and learning. They are traveling and training and wearing themselves out doing all this dog stuff, but it's a passion. For the good of the breed, not to make money.

I'm not saying you "should" buy a puppy from a breeder. But if you're going to pay a breeder for a puppy (and that's exactly what you'd be doing if you pay $200 for that puppy you've been considering), consider who you are supporting with your dollars and why. The only way I would pay $200 for a backyard puppy is if the owner of the parents agreed to use the money toward spay and neuter for the parents of the litter.

There's nothing "bad" about rescue or shelter puppies. They are living, breathing, feeling beings and they too need love, understanding, respect and care. They need homes too, and may be the best dog you've ever had.

Breeder vs. rescue is an old dilemma. I'm all for rescue, and I'm all for ethical breeders. It comes down to what is most important to you. Because I want a certain set of traits in a dog, I like to buy from reputable breeders so that I can have some degree of predictability in my future puppy. If the health, temperament, and personality of the parents and ancestors is well known, I can have some idea of what I'm going to end up with. Whereas with a rescue dog of unknown origin, it's really a crapshoot. You can identify some stuff at an early age, but other stuff may not surface until the dog is older. 

True, well-bred dogs have problems too, and many poorly-bred dogs end up being great dogs. It's nature and we can't control everything. With any dog, you have to be ready and willing to take on things that may not be exactly what you wanted or envisioned. But with a reputable breeder, the dice are loaded in your favor, and you have some support. Good breeders will take their pups back at any time if they prove to be a mismatch for the owner. Some rescues will do this too. BYBs will not.


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## YORCHI

The way I understood a BYB to be was someone that had a male and a female dog and bred them continuously just to have puppies and sell them without caring much for the dogs at all. 

Now, we have a male chihuahua, quite a handsome little guy actually. Our friends have a female chihuahua who is equally as adorable. We want to set them up on a blind date and see if sparks fly between them. If we're lucky, they'll fall in love and get married and have puppies later down the road. If they have puppies, more than one, we want to keep one and the owners of the female keep one as well. Are we unethical BYB's?

If my friend has these dogs because she loves them and she's raised them and takes care of them and all that mess and they have puppies and she wants to sell the puppies before giving them away then I don't consider that to be an unethical BYB. Maybe just a stupid BYB but not unethical in that they're doing it for money regardless of the health and safety of the animal. 

I'm having a really hard time explaining just what I mean about buying an animal. I don't want to buy a dog for the sake of buying it. I see your point about not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars on a family member but I can spend a few thousand on a piece of property, and I never really thought of it that way. It puts it into a different perspective to me. 

I will let everyone know what happens on Sunday. If she lets me I will take lots of pictures of everything and try to spend time with each puppy alone in a new place. I don't want to bring my chihuahua with me because I don't want him to get them sick or vice versa but I would like to see how they interact. My chihuahua is a member of my family as well, so I'd like to know what his opinion is too but the only way to know that is to see him interact with the puppies.


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## Freestep

YORCHI said:


> Now, we have a male chihuahua, quite a handsome little guy actually. Our friends have a female chihuahua who is equally as adorable. We want to set them up on a blind date and see if sparks fly between them. If we're lucky, they'll fall in love and get married and have puppies later down the road. If they have puppies, more than one, we want to keep one and the owners of the female keep one as well. Are we unethical BYB's?


 I'm afraid so.

With the current situation of countless unwanted dogs in shelters, rescue, and on the streets, you'd better have a darn good reason to breed more dogs. Just throwing a male and a female together to make puppies is thoughtless, and unethical. Why would you want to? Even though they are "just" Chihuahuas, you don't know Chihuahua pedigrees. You don't know if the combination will "click" and make wonderful little companion dogs, or if it will make nervous, aggressive, fearful little ankle-biters. There are many health tests that you must do to ensure Chihuahuas are truly healthy and sound, and do not have hidden disease genes that can be passed to the offspring. Either do it right, or leave breeding to the people who know what they are doing. 



> If my friend has these dogs because she loves them and she's raised them and takes care of them and all that mess and they have puppies and she wants to sell the puppies before giving them away then I don't consider that to be an unethical BYB. Maybe just a stupid BYB but not unethical in that they're doing it for money regardless of the health and safety of the animal.


 I'm afraid that it IS unethical, and it has nothing to do with money. Your friend is not breeding to make better GSDs. I don't know why she is breeding her dogs, and chances are, neither does she. If she cared about health, she'd have x-rayed the parents and done health testing. She probably doesn't know about any of that stuff and simply thought it would be cute and fun, like most people who don't think about it beyond their own backyard. 

GSDs are not an endangered species, but properly-bred GSDs are a rarity because people like your friend simply throw two dogs together with no planning, testing, forethought, or goals. THAT is unethical, when there are already countless numbers of backyard-bred GSDs out there, many homeless due to temperament and behavior problems. I'm sure your friend "loves" her dogs, but love is not enough. You have to be a responsible dog owner and not contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. If you aren't breeding for the right reasons, then you aren't breeding ethically. I've already described what the reputable breeder does in order to breed GSDs in an ethical manner, and same goes for any breed, even Chihuahuas.


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## LeoRose

Freestep, I wish this forum had a "thanks" button, and that I could thank you a hundred times over for your last two posts.


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## Eiros

LeoRose said:


> Freestep, I wish this forum had a "thanks" button, and that I could thank you a hundred times over for your last two posts.


Agreed.

Well written, Freestep.


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## Merciel

YORCHI said:


> Now, we have a male chihuahua, quite a handsome little guy actually. Our friends have a female chihuahua who is equally as adorable. We want to set them up on a blind date and see if sparks fly between them. If we're lucky, they'll fall in love and get married and have puppies later down the road. If they have puppies, more than one, we want to keep one and the owners of the female keep one as well. Are we unethical BYB's?


In this hypothetical, you and your friend would be BYBs, yes. As to the "unethical," well, that depends on your ethics, which is why this thread has gotten so long. There is not one clear answer to that question.

30 or 40 years ago, the answer would pretty clearly have been "yes, that is unethical," because 30 or 40 years ago, it was _extremely_ common for people to breed their family pets and try to sell or give away the puppies. And because everyone was doing it, the supply greatly outstripped the demand, and most of those adorable puppies ended up at the pound. Most of those puppies did not get adopted out, because they were competing for homes with all the other adorable puppies who were being actively hawked by friends and neighbors who also bred their own family pets.

As a result, the euthanasia rate for dogs and cats in the U.S. was in the tens of millions annually.

Fast-forward 30 or 40 years. American culture and pet-keeping norms have changed dramatically. Most people in urban and suburban areas spay and neuter their household pets; it is fairly uncommon to see people breeding their pet dogs for the reasons that used to be accepted without question ("we love her so much," "I want my kids to witness the miracle of birth," etc.). For cats the picture is a little different -- the spay/neuter rates are significantly lower for cats, for a number of reasons -- and as a result there are still tons of homeless kittens produced every year and their euth rates remain pretty high. But for dogs, the picture is much brighter than it once was.

The result is that demand for puppies -- not even purebred puppies, but almost _any_ puppies other than pitbulls/pit mixes (and a few localized outliers like Chihuahuas in Southern California) -- now outstrips the supply.

So it is not as clearly unethical as it once was, from a pure numbers perspective, to add to the population of dogs seeking homes, because the fact is, around here, there are more than enough homes to go around for cute fuzzy puppies. I semi-routinely refer would-be adopters to breeders if they're looking for puppies in breeds we don't often get (mostly poodles, but a couple of other breeds too), because the dogs they want are not going to come through the rescue system in any reasonable timeframe and it will be hugely competitive to adopt those puppies when and if we _do_ ever get any.

In some breeds (although not Chis), there is much more demand than the rescue system can supply, and so there is a debatable question as to whether it's better for BYBs to step in and fill that gap as opposed to leaving it up to high-end breeders on one extreme and commercial breeders on the other.

At the same time, everybody involved in rescue is aware that this is a fragile and hard-won victory, and if the general public started breeding their personal pets willy-nilly en masse again, we'd soon be back to euthanizing 70 million dogs a year.

That is, of course, just one facet to the issue. There are many others (the biggest one probably being the health and welfare of the breed generally, and then of the proposed litter specifically). But I hope that goes to illustrate, in some small part, why it's not really possible for anyone to say "that's definitely unethical" even when we can all agree that somebody is a BYB.


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## Merciel

Pfft now I feel dumb for writing all that out.

I think Freestep's answer is better.


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## sehrgutcsg

*deaf ears ignore - there not deaf, however I do wonder about the other choices > ?*



YORCHI said:


> The way I understood a BYB to be was someone that had a male and a female dog and bred them continuously just to have puppies and sell them without caring much for the dogs at all.
> 
> *Now, we have a male chihuahua, quite a handsome little guy actually. Our friends have a female chihuahua who is equally as adorable. We want to set them up on a blind date and see if sparks fly between them. If we're lucky, they'll fall in love and get married and have puppies later down the road.* If they have puppies, more than one, we want to keep one and the owners of the female keep one as well. Are we unethical BYB's?
> 
> If my friend has these dogs because she loves them and she's raised them and takes care of them and all that mess and they have puppies and she wants to sell the puppies before giving them away then I don't consider that to be an unethical BYB. Maybe just a stupid BYB but not unethical in that they're doing it for money regardless of the health and safety of the animal.
> 
> I'm having a really hard time explaining just what I mean about buying an animal. I don't want to buy a dog for the sake of buying it. I see your point about not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars on a family member but I can spend a few thousand on a piece of property, and I never really thought of it that way. It puts it into a different perspective to me.
> 
> I will let everyone know what happens on Sunday. If she lets me I will take lots of pictures of everything and try to spend time with each puppy alone in a new place. I don't want to bring my chihuahua with me because I don't want him to get them sick or vice versa but I would like to see how they interact. My chihuahua is a member of my family as well, so I'd like to know what his opinion is too but the only way to know that is to see him interact with the puppies.


 _Terriffic !_

*13 pages. Not getting through. 4 million dead animals per 12 months will fill up over 10,500 home swimming pools of back-yard-breeders.*

I hope your dog has a happy marriage.. God bless you ! :help:


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## Melissa98409

Merciel said:


> Pfft now I feel dumb for writing all that out.
> 
> I think Freestep's answer is better.


I don't know about that...I think you nailed it!


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## selzer

sehrgutcsg said:


> _Terriffic !_
> 
> *13 pages. Not getting through. 4 million dead animals per 12 months will fill up over 10,500 home swimming pools of back-yard-breeders.*
> 
> I hope your dog has a happy marriage.. God bless you ! :help:


This kind or hammering on people rarely makes people think. They just think that you're off your rocker. Puppies are bred by commercial breeders, hobby breeders, one-time-wanted-my-bitch-to-experience-motherhood breeders, puppy mills because there is demand for puppies. Puppies go. People buy them, people adopt them, people rescue them. 

The reason dogs die in shelters is because people fail to bond with their dog. They fail to train it to make it easy to manage and a joy and member of the family, And, many people feel that these dogs are disposable. They can always get another one. 

Personally, I do not think that people need to have 1500 dollars in the bank to enjoy the ownership of a dog. I don't think that people who sell puppies for cheap in the newspapers are evil. Or that people who go to them are ignorant or bad. I think that there is a market for these dogs, and the market are people who are not as deep into dog-life as most of us are, and who cannot afford a dog that is out of show dogs, sport dogs, working dogs. Those dogs are going to be more expensive. Not everyone that can't afford a dog out of a champion is going to provide a crappy home. 

Not everyone out there putting pets together is allowing their dogs to be sick without treatment, denying them proper food, shelter, etc. We here frown on less then stellar breeding practices. And we do not have to spend our money supporting those breeders. But not everyone is going to share our zeal for the breed. 

In the end, pounding on people really doesn't help at all. But when we welcome people in, and let them learn at their own pace, they will stumble upon the answers as they decent into our little cult. And then they will come upon those answers themselves, and then they will own them. 

We do not all start at the top when we get a dog. Our first dog might be a great pet. Our second dog a Rally dog. Our third dog an obedience dog, and our next dog we will make into an obedience champion. We can learn tons from a dog from a shelter or BYB, and get our feet wet. It isn't the easy ones that teach us the most. Really. So when we do it right the next time, we get one from a great breeder, we do not have the same problems, because we are more experienced and we do not make the same mistakes. 

Ah well.


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## Sunflowers

YORCHI said:


> Now, we have a male chihuahua, quite a handsome little guy actually. Our friends have a female chihuahua who is equally as adorable. We want to set them up on a blind date and see if sparks fly between them. If we're lucky, they'll fall in love and get married and have puppies later down the road. If they have puppies, more than one, we want to keep one and the owners of the female keep one as well. Are we unethical BYB's?
> 
> If my friend has these dogs because she loves them and she's raised them and takes care of them and all that mess and they have puppies and she wants to sell the puppies before giving them away then I don't consider that to be an unethical BYB. Maybe just a stupid BYB but not unethical in that they're doing it for money regardless of the health and safety of the animal.



Never mind.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> So it is not as clearly unethical as it once was, from a pure numbers perspective, to add to the population of dogs seeking homes, because the fact is, around here, there are more than enough homes to go around for cute fuzzy puppies.


 You may be right about demand currently outstripping supply, but that argument is a slippery slope. People are looking for excuses to breed their dogs, and that argument gives them one.

I want to reiterate that pet overpopulation is not the only reason that backyard breeding is unethical. However, this is just one person's opinion. You will encounter many differing opinions.

I'm not against breeders. We NEED good breeders. If you want to be a Chihuahua breeder, start research and study into the breed, learn pedigrees, get a mentor, attend conformation shows, performance events (Chis do obedience and agility, don't they?) and learn all you can BEFORE you ever think about breeding.

Chances are, even though your little dog is "handsome", he's not breeding quality. That doesn't reduce or affect his quality as a living, breathing being, or his suitability as a companion, or his intrinsic worth. It simply means that there are other Chis that are more suitable for passing on their genes. Especially if you are considering getting another female dog, please consider getting your Chi neutered. Even tiny dogs can impregnate larger bitches, it seems impossible but believe me, it isn't!


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## Jack's Dad

Thanks selzer. That is what I've been trying to get at for pages.

I've known some real nice people who bred a few litters so others could enjoy dogs like theirs.

They weren't awful, evil, unethical, immoral folks. Neither were the people who bought from them.

There are a number of folks who seem to feel morally superior to others here and wish to imprint their view onto everyone.

My values and ethics don't allow me to think less of someone because they didn't get an animal where I might. 

At some point in my life I have acquired a dog from almost ever scenario that is unacceptable here. I learned, we all do hopefully.

Stating opinions and beliefs is certainly a part of a forum but trying to state your own morals and ethics as if they were the only proper ones to have drives me up a wall.


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## Merciel

Freestep said:


> You may be right about demand currently outstripping supply, but that argument is a slippery slope. People are looking for excuses to breed their dogs, and that argument gives them one.


Yeah, I know.

If this were a thread like that one a couple days ago with the person wanting to breed their 7-week-old puppy to a tan and white (or some off color like that, I don't remember exactly) sire, I wouldn't have bothered writing out that long post. Because, frankly, I don't have high hopes about the person in that thread being capable of judging where to stand on a slippery slope. That's probably unkind of me to admit, but whatever, it's true.

In this thread I have a lot more respect for the OP and feel like it's a more appropriate place to try to talk about some of the nuances that go into this type of situation.


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## Muskeg

Do you really think that many people want to breed their dogs? 

I have intact animals, but out of all my dog owning friends, everyone else loves to have their animals de-sexed as early as possible. They seem to think having a male dog with testicles is disgusting- kind of like if your toddler started acting like a teenage boy. Gross. And the heat cycles- wowsah. Myths around that abound and talk about gross. 

Maybe I just don't know the right people or haven't lived in areas where people want to breed their pets willy-nilly. I think society is now so far removed from the farms that the ick factor of having intact animals and of breeding won't go away. I don't see us going back into the bad old days of everyone breeding their pet to the neighbor's mutt and producing tons of unwanted pups. I think (in general) as a society it is just not going to happen. 

Look how the pet-as-child industry has exploded. You don't want your "fur-kid" to start menstruating, do you? The trend is to snip early and entirely. I don't think that is going away. So, I think we're heading in a few directions regarding dog breeding. The first is responsible breeders who health test etc. Then those with sweet purebred pets who seem healthy, and are bred for pet home puppies. And finally, the puppymills and the pitbull, chi, doodle mix breeders who are out there to make a buck and don't care what they are producing. 

Personal, I vastly prefer option 2 to option 3. The truth is, responsible breeders aren't all that common and most people are just looking for a good pet. 

This link (see #5) talks about what the vast majority of dog owning public is interested in far better than I can. Five things you think know about breeding (but you’re wrong) | Ruffly Speaking

"Even with education we rely on a steady supply of NON-breeding, NON-experienced homes so our breeds can survive. The overwhelming majority of all the dogs you ever produce will be in those homes. Forgetting that and thinking your responsibility is to your show-[or working]breeding peers is to your great detriment.

When you breed, you must breed first for your breed AS A WHOLE. Then for yourself, with your conscience and your good mind, your understanding of evidence and solid decisions. Then for your pet buyers, knowing that you have responsibility to support them forever. Then for your peers – because at three in the morning, your peers are the only ones NOT in your bed, on your phone, or as a still small voice in your heart."


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## Freestep

Jack's Dad said:


> I've known some real nice people who bred a few litters so others could enjoy dogs like theirs.
> 
> They weren't awful, evil, unethical, immoral folks. Neither were the people who bought from them.


I'm not saying people who breed their pets are awful, evil, immoral people. They might be very nice people. Most are simply unaware of the larger issues at stake. Others simply don't care. All I'm trying to do is make folks aware of the larger issues, and they can do as they please. It's a free country. My opinion is that it's unethical to breed random dogs willy-nilly, for a whole host of reasons, and that it's wise to leave dog breeding to the experts.


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## Chip18

Freestep said:


> I'm not saying people who breed their pets are awful, evil, immoral people. They might be very nice people. Most are simply unaware of the larger issues at stake. Others simply don't care. All I'm trying to do is make folks aware of the larger issues, and they can do as they please. It's a free country. My opinion is that it's unethical to breed random dogs willy-nilly, for a whole host of reasons, and that it's wise to leave dog breeding to the experts.


Pretty much agree with this! I might be plagued with a freaking Dachshund myself! 

Daughter In Law!:crazy: I tried to tell her about BYB which is what she would be! But really folks who have two of the same dogs, nice temperaments, young dogs no health problems "so far" are simply clueless! 

I had "thought" about breeding my Boxers...she had DM unless I had gotten lucky..she would have passed that gene along! 

So...yeah.


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## wolfstraum

Sorry but I think that BYB include people who have 4 - 8 bitches and breed for inexpensive pets....BYB are not just the clueless letting their dogs 
"get married" and have pups because they WANT a pup from their dogs - BYB can advertise constantly in Dog World for pet puppies and think that Rally titles make their dogs breedworthy. If anything, some of these breeders who gather up a collection of dogs and hit the all the right phrases in their websites are, in my feelings, even worse than the clueless, because they know enough to take advantage of the lingo to market pups that they breed while really being clueless or just plain not caring about ethical breeding!

Lee


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## my boy diesel

* You don't want your "fur-kid" to start menstruating, do you? The trend is to snip early and entirely. I don't think that is going away.*

there is a lot more to altering pets than this 
some of us realize the problems with having intact animals
bitch in heat = males from all over at your doorstep 
there is a mess factor often
plus the risks of breast cancer and add to that the fact some bitches get pyos then yes in many peoples lives it is better to spay
testicles 
it isnt an ick as much as temperament 
i dont need an intact male to prove anything to anyone

people who alter arent idiots 
some of us just prefer life easier than harder and there is nothing wrong with that

for me? my pets are here to bring me joy not headaches 
for the short time they are with us i want to enjoy them and not have to worry about them reproducing when i dont want them to

and my pets arent my kids they are my pets
so the fur kid factor as you put it is not even relevant


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## Merciel

Muskeg said:


> Do you really think that many people want to breed their dogs?


Yes and no.

I'm primarily involved in two parts of the dog world: shelter/rescue and AKC-type performance sports. I'm still active in my neighborhood's dog owner community (which is your typical East Coast hypereducated, affluent, yuppie-tastic "dog parent" community), but not as much as I used to be.

What I see is that the people at the far ends of the ownership spectrum are pretty likely to breed their dogs. On one extreme you have the people who just don't care to get their dogs fixed and don't care about dumping boxes full of puppies after every pregnancy. These people are why I'll be picking up Crookytail's younger sister as my next foster dog later tonight: because they didn't care to get their dogs fixed and just kept on dumping the puppies, and two years later, the exact same puppies are getting dumped in the exact same place for the exact same reasons.

Or, worse, people like the former owner of another foster dog I had, who bought littermate puppies from a pet store and then let the siblings breed again and again so she could sell their puppies for drug money.

Then there are the people at the other end of the spectrum. I would guess that probably a third of the people I know through the dog sport world have considered breeding their best performance dog(s), although not all of them actually go through with it. Not a majority, but a substantial percentage.

The people that I _don't_ see breeding their dogs very often are the urban and suburban pet homes who make up the broad middle swath of the spectrum. At least where I live, responsible pet ownership is understood to be incompatible with breeding your pets. And I think you're right that this is not likely to change anytime soon, although I'd be hesitant to say it could _never_ change.

I think that it is overall a good thing that these homes aren't breeding their pets. But I do agree that the population of pet dogs in the U.S. is increasingly polarized (or so it seems from where I stand) and that does have drawbacks.

At some point -- and we're not there yet, not even really all that close, but I think the day will eventually come -- we're going to run out of those last areas where it is common and accepted to let one's family pets breed indiscriminately. At that point we're going to run out of these soft, affectionate, easy family dogs coming from rural Southern shelters and getting adopted in Northern cities.

When that day comes, and shelter populations are comprised only of the generally less-easy dogs that we see in East Coast cities (and even _those_ numbers are slowly but steadily declining), I'll feel a lot more charitable toward "good" BYBs. Personally, I'm not there yet; I am still seeing way too many wonderful family dogs dying in shelters for lack of money, time, and homes.

But I'm not totally unsympathetic to them either. Because there _is_ a gap in the market, and it's only going to get bigger with time.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> At some point -- and we're not there yet, not even really all that close, but I think the day will eventually come -- we're going to run out of those last areas where it is common and accepted to let one's family pets breed indiscriminately. At that point we're going to run out of these soft, affectionate, easy family dogs coming from rural Southern shelters and getting adopted in Northern cities.


 Southern shelters are the only source of soft, affectionate, easy family dogs? I think randomly-bred dogs will continue to exist everywhere, and there will always be oops litters, especially now that there's a current push toward leaving dogs intact until maturity. 

And I think there are reputable breeders making soft, affectionate, easy family dogs, too. Basically your Golden Retrievers and Cavaliers and Toys and such that are *supposed* to be that way... some breeds have no other function than to be companions.


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## Freestep

Just wanted to add, after thinking about it...

I once thought that I wanted to be a breeder. In fact, I didn't think there was anything wrong with breeding pet dogs. Even mixes. As long as you could find good homes for them, where's the harm?

As I grew up and started working with animals, in veterinary hospitals, shelters, and grooming, I saw a lot of dogs with terrible health problems, genetic problems. I saw a lot of dogs with temperament and behavior problems. I saw a lot of nice dogs languishing in the shelter, passed over for cute fluffy puppies. I saw a lot of nice dogs get euthanized for no reason other than the fact that there was no room to keep them, because more and more and more dogs kept coming in. I saw entire litters of kittens euthanized. It broke my heart. Still does.

I learned that many of the health problems I saw in dogs were genetic. I wondered why people would deliberately breed dogs with health problems, and learned that some backyard breeders have absolutely no clue, others simply don't care.

If I hadn't had those experiences at a relatively young age, I might never have realized the scope of the problem, and I might have become a BYB myself.


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## YORCHI

Wow, this thread got a lot bigger than I thought. Considering my introduction post received no replies when I first joined lol

I underestimated the level of commitment to good breeding this board has. And I admit I knew nothing about it and I actually still don't know anything about breeding. Some of the replies are at PETA level and way above me. I'm sorry if I caused any hard feelings with anyone, it wasn't my intention. I just wanted some simple advice and I wound up receiving a very big lesson on what means to be a responsible breeder and how to make the best choices for the GSD breed. You guys that have that level of commitment are awesome. I really genuinely admire your points of view an dedication to these amazing animals. I'm sadly not at your level but I can assure you I am not the person to put down dogs or animals simply because it's not convenient to me. I love my animals. 

Now for an update on what happened today:
I took my daughter with me to go see the puppies. As we arrived to the front of the house I heard a few barks. Good barks that the male dog knew we were close and he was alerting the owners. He didn't charge the fence or anything. He simply barked from the backyard. He looked great. Very strong and proud looking. 

My friend walked us to the backyard and the male barked a bit at us. The owner walked outside to calm him down and stand next to him. We came outside and introduced ourselves to the male. He sniffed us and then he was taken to the back. He didn't bark anymore but the owner stayed with him just in case. The backyard was clean and they had nice big wooden doghouses that I could see. Then we walked to where the mother was in a large fenced off area with the puppies. She stood up as we arrived and gave one good deep bark. Then my friend called her and petted her and we introduced ourselves to her the same. She sniffed us and then went to her owner to be petted. She gave her a treat. We saw the entire litter actively moving. Some were crying but most were just walking around bumping into each other. They are 3 weeks and 2 days old. Nice looking. Lots of fluff. 2 really dark pups and 4 blonde/black pups. I asked her about the parents said she's had them for 5 years. The male is 5 and the female is 4. She bought the male and was given the female. They had puppies last year and after these puppies she's going to have the female fixed. Not the male. They're not aggressive and they only bark at strangers she said. She walks them regularly and takes them to parks where they play and interact with other dogs nicely. But they never trust them around other dogs without them being close by just in case. I was impressed by the parents. They seemed like the kinds of adults id like to have. Especially the mother. She was very sweet. She licked my daughters hand more than mine. 

We then went to the front yard and she brought the puppies out alone without the parents. We spent about 30 minutes playing with the entire litter as a whole. 2 kept crying and looking around for their mother. One kept wandering around on its own. We focused on the other 3 that seemed the most stable. We took each one of those three off to the side to see what they would do. We liked one the most and we chose her. I gave her 40 dollars to hold her for me and told her that I would need her to make sure she has all her shots and gets dewormed. She said she'll have them seen by the parents vet at 5 weeks and will provide me with a copy of the shot records and the screening by the vet. She said all the pups were already spoken for but I was the first to show up and pick one and give a deposit. I told her that if she doesn't have them looked at by the vet then I wouldn't buy her. She said not to worry that she's for sure taking them so he can look at them. It's the same vet she took the parents when they were puppies and whenever they were sick which was always them just vomiting or having diarrhea from eating something they shouldn't have. 

When she takes the puppies I'm gonna get the record and then call the vet myself and ask about them. Aside from that I felt really good about them. The dogs looked happy and strong and they showed the qualities that I think I want when I think of a GSD. 

So that's that. We picked one and my daughter named her Daisy already. I'm going to sign her up for the Banfield program and take her home on May 30 when she turns 8 weeks.


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## lhczth

Hi. WAY WAY too early to pick a pup. They will change a lot in the next 4.5 weeks. I would go back and see them again at 5 and then 7 weeks before choosing.


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## Nigel

Something told me you were already hooked and would probably end up getting a pup, lol. I agree with the above, too soon to be picking one out. I'd come back and check again to make sure she's the right one. Hope you stick around and keep us updated, good luck!


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## selzer

It would be better if the puppy owner took them to the vet at 7 weeks. Shots at 5 weeks are probably completely useless. Sorry, but to understand this, you need to get a quick course in how the canine immune system works in puppies. Puppies do not work under their own immune system, they work under their dam's immune system. They get a lot of immunity in the colostrum that they eat the first day or so. Some of this immunity lasts their lifetime. But some wears off. 

The thing is, introducing shots while the puppy is still working under the dam's immune system is totally pointless, as her antibodies works against the vaccine, and the puppy's immune system never even tries to build up its own antibodies. 

When a puppy is no longer working under it's dam's immune system depends on the pup, and is generally unknown. So, a pup may not be protected from parvo-distemper, even with one or two sets of shots in them -- well, especially if those shots start at 5 weeks, and the second set is at 8 weeks. It is possible that neither set would be effective. 

I also agree that it is way too early to determine which pup. They have had their eyes open for about a week, and have just started walking and getting used to their litter mates. They are just now starting to develop their personality, and it will change a whole lot by the time you take the puppy home. There is no way to determine drives and social-aspects of the puppy's behavior yet. 

Lastly, rethink banfield. Look them up, google them. I have heard some horror stories of people who have been suckered into long-term contracts with them, and have been very unhappy. They have tried to not renew, but because they didn't do something by some weird deadline, they were under contract for and automatic renewal. I suggest looking closely into that before signing away your firstborn to them.


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## YORCHI

selzer said:


> Lastly, rethink banfield. Look them up, google them. I have heard some horror stories of people who have been suckered into long-term contracts with them, and have been very unhappy. They have tried to not renew, but because they didn't do something by some weird deadline, they were under contract for and automatic renewal. I suggest looking closely into that before signing away your firstborn to them.


We used them for our chihuahua and they were great. I made sure to only sign him up for the first year and then cancelled the renewal and we didn't have any issues. They took care of all the shots and checked on him regularly. Luckily for us (or them) he didn't need anything done aside from shots and regular check ups. I didn't continue the program after the first year but instead we found a local vet who had good prices and good reviews and we take him there at least once a year for a check up and whenever he isn't feeling well.


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## YORCHI

Nigel said:


> Something told me you were already hooked and would probably end up getting a pup, lol. I agree with the above, too soon to be picking one out. I'd come back and check again to make sure she's the right one. Hope you stick around and keep us updated, good luck!


Ha, I wasn't entirely sure until I got there and had a really good look around. I couldn't think of any reason why to not take this dog. These dogs are going to need good homes with a loving family to raise them and that is just what we intend to do. We love dogs, we love all animals really, but we really love dogs. My daughter was the one who loved them all but I explained to her before we arrived that if we didn't like how the dogs lived we wouldn't be taking one because we didn't want it to get sick and she understood. 

I couldn't find a reason to not want this dog. If my friend had all these puppies in a cardboard box and were giving them away outside of a supermarket I'd take one. If she gave them all to a shelter I'd take one. 

Maybe later in my life when I'm more stable (we just bought our first house a month ago, that's why I can't afford a breeder dog) I'll be able to find a dog from the best breeder in my area or that I can afford and add him/her to our family. But for now, I feel good that I'm going to give this dog a loving home and family to grow up in and we're going to do our best to ensure it stays healthy and happy for as long as we can.

Thank you everyone for your help and advice. There is a lot of tough love on this board but I understand it's because everyone loves these amazing animals so much. Your devotion to caring about them is very touching. I know I'm going to learn a ton from being here.


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## YORCHI

Here are a few pics:
This one is from my friends Instagram account:


These are the pics I took:


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## JakodaCD OA

chunky monkeys! 

Can I make a suggestion? I agree with lies picking a puppy out at 3 weeks is rather soon..That puppy could be a freakin monster at 5 weeks..

With that, IF you can, since you are probably the first to give them a deposit?? You should have first dibs on what one you want??? Ask to see them again, when they hit around 6 weeks, interact with them then, and see if your still wanting the same one or another one..Personally, I'd visit them as often as you can prior to that 8 week mark,,right now, they are 3 week old 'slugs',,they may seem sweet and cuddly, by 5 weeks, they could be biting machines (puppy biting),,but you may decide on a different one.


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## YORCHI

Yes you're absolutely right, I will go back and see them regularly and make a final decision when I pick one up at 8 weeks. 

The one we adopted from the shelter was a total biting machine. My daughter even had very bad second thoughts when we went to pick her up from the shelter because she was just too much for her. None of us left that playpen with clean clothes. This dog was so much energy that she would just jump at us and nip at our hands and our clothes. For my wife and I it was fine but for my daughter, it terrified her. I had to assure her that it was only because she was incredibly happy to be going home with someone that she wanted to show off for us and it would go away. 

So yes, we'll see again in a few weeks if we decide on keeping this one or another. We put a very thin piece of ribbon on the one we chose to help us remember and I took pictures of the distinguishable body marks like the white toe on the back left paw. Her demeanor will be the ultimate tool and regardless, we're going to love her 

I'm starting to think this dog won't be a 100% purebred GSD. I think it's a pretty fair assumption that the parents weren't 100% purebred either or someone down the line their had to have been a mix. I don't see my friend and her parents as the kind who tracked down purebreds purposefully. For all I know they got the parents the same way I'm getting mine. I'll have the blood test done on mine to find out, but I'm actually kinda hoping that she isn't 100% pure GSD, it'll give her more character and a bigger reason for me to love her


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## Sunflowers

Why pay anything if they aren't purebred?

They look like mixes to me... and blood tests are not accurate, so the only way you can tell is with a pedigree, which I guess is not important at this point. But I would not pay anything for one of those puppies. They are cute, but not purebred.


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## YORCHI

Sunflowers said:


> Why pay anything if they aren't purebred?


I went through so much back and forth with myself about it all of last week from reading everything I could including the advice here that I'm okay with it now. I could have shown up and found a box full of labs and golden retrievers and one dog that maybe sort of looked like a GSD puppy and I would have still considered it lol 

I know I'm not able to get a purebred from a great breeder like everyone recommends. I'd love to, so badly I would love to be able to do that but I just know that I can't, not right now at least. We just bought our first home 2 months ago so all of the money I had saved from the years I was in the Marines is gone and went into the house. What's left is not to be touched with. One day when I'm more stable and everything levels out then I'll really look into that. And I will be back to ask for more advice because you are all much more knowledgeable about this than I am.

I made up my mind, and I'm feeling good about the choice I made. I am giving her money for this puppy as long as when I go back in a few weeks nothing has changed or something happens to make me decide not to get the dog like I don't like what I see in any of them when I go.

Every dog I have ever owned just happened to fall in my lap when I was least expecting it and everything always worked out fine for us. I see this in the same way. These dogs were made available to me at the perfect time and I can't help but acknowledge that it's something I'm meant to do. I'm very big on that part of superstition. I have always found life has presented me with opportunities and situations at times I least expect and when I take advantage of them I wind up better off. The few times in my life I've been burned were because I over analyzed something or put too much into it to be let down in the end. Maybe that's why I want this dog right now at this time. I won't know until later but my history has shown me good results in the past so I'm willing to keep the streak going.

I could also word it a different way to a different person and say that I offered to give her money for giving me one of the puppies she has to help pay for the shots and veterinary check up as well as for the attention she will give the puppy to ensure it's safe until I pick it up.

Purebred or not, if I take one of these dogs home in 8 weeks, she will be a very loved and welcomed member of my family. 

Hopefully if all goes well and according to my master plan to rule the world, in a few years I'll be back and looking at breeders to find the very best GSD I can find


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## llombardo

YORCHI said:


> I went through so much back and forth with myself about it all of last week from reading everything I could including the advice here that I'm okay with it now. I could have shown up and found a box full of labs and golden retrievers and one dog that maybe sort of looked like a GSD puppy and I would have still considered it lol
> 
> I know I'm not able to get a purebred from a great breeder like everyone recommends. I'd love to, so badly I would love to be able to do that but I just know that I can't, not right now at least. We just bought our first home 2 months ago so all of the money I had saved from the years I was in the Marines is gone and went into the house. What's left is not to be touched with. One day when I'm more stable and everything levels out then I'll really look into that. And I will be back to ask for more advice because you are all much more knowledgeable about this than I am.
> 
> I made up my mind, and I'm feeling good about the choice I made. I am giving her money for this puppy as long as when I go back in a few weeks nothing has changed or something happens to make me decide not to get the dog like I don't like what I see in any of them when I go.
> 
> Every dog I have ever owned just happened to fall in my lap when I was least expecting it and everything always worked out fine for us. I see this in the same way. These dogs were made available to me at the perfect time and I can't help but acknowledge that it's something I'm meant to do. I'm very big on that part of superstition. I have always found life has presented me with opportunities and situations at times I least expect and when I take advantage of them I wind up better off. The few times in my life I've been burned were because I over analyzed something or put too much into it to be let down in the end. Maybe that's why I want this dog right now at this time. I won't know until later but my history has shown me good results in the past so I'm willing to keep the streak going.
> 
> I could also word it a different way to a different person and say that I offered to give her money for giving me one of the puppies she has to help pay for the shots and veterinary check up as well as for the attention she will give the puppy to ensure it's safe until I pick it up.
> 
> Purebred or not, if I take one of these dogs home in 8 weeks, she will be a very loved and welcomed member of my family.
> 
> Hopefully if all goes well and according to my master plan to rule the world, in a few years I'll be back and looking at breeders to find the very best GSD I can find


 
Enjoy your new pup when it arrives


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## Heidigsd

*"Purebred or not, if I take one of these dogs home in 8 weeks, she will be a very loved and welcomed member of my family."*

I think "Daisy" is adorable and I wish all dogs would have a loving home, purebred or not


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## Nigel

YORCHI said:


> Yes you're absolutely right, I will go back and see them regularly and make a final decision when I pick one up at 8 weeks.
> 
> The one we adopted from the shelter was a total biting machine. My daughter even had very bad second thoughts when we went to pick her up from the shelter because she was just too much for her. None of us left that playpen with clean clothes.
> 
> I'm starting to think this dog won't be a 100% purebred GSD. I think it's a pretty fair assumption that the parents weren't 100% purebred either or someone down the line their had to have been a mix. I don't see my friend and her parents as the kind who tracked down purebreds purposefully. For all I know they got the parents the same way I'm getting mine. I'll have the blood test done on mine to find out, but I'm actually kinda hoping that she isn't 100% pure GSD, it'll give her more character and a bigger reason for me to love her


This pup could very well end up doing some biting herself until training and time takes care of it, so expect that possibility. Look into some of the threads posted here for help if it becomes an issue.

Not sure what you are seeing to think the pups are mixed, but either way, both can have plenty of character. Be sure to post pictures when you bring her home.


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## glowingtoadfly

Heidigsd said:


> *"Purebred or not, if I take one of these dogs home in 8 weeks, she will be a very loved and welcomed member of my family."*
> 
> I think "Daisy" is adorable and I wish all dogs would have a loving home, purebred or not


+1. Can't wait to see pictures and hear about her.


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## Freestep

$200 for a GSD mix? The shelters are overflowing with GSD mixes for next to nothing, and this byb expects people to pay $200 for mixed-breed puppies? Total scam. Take a puppy home if you want to, but please don't line the pockets of this byb, it will only encourage her to breed them again, and again. If she is your "friend", she should give you a pup and be happy that it's going to a good home.

Of course, I am not sure exactly how you would approach this, I don't think there's a polite way to say "I want this puppy but I don't want to pay for it".


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## my boy diesel

freestep right on
and in a shelter they would spay or neuter and do all vaccines 
as well as even microchip the pup
this is the second litter from the sounds of it
so the 1st time they saw the money roll in and decided to do it again
and even this time the male will be left intact 
i will be truly surprised if the female is spayed after its all said and done

for those who say you cant make money on a dogs reproductive organs 
you are wrong because you are thinking of good breeders when you make that statement
seriously a few bags extra of dog food for mom and then pups
$5 each vaccines at a feed store and boom you just cleared $1175 and its tax free

if you still think i am wrong then check out craigslist


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## Stevenzachsmom

The pups are adorable and I am glad you will love the pup, regardless of whether or not it is purebred. Sometimes, mixes are the best. Personally, I don't see a problem with $200 for mix. A mixed pup requires the same amount of shots and care as a purebred. In my area, if these puppies were in a rescue they would cost $250 - $275. The only puppies you would be likely to find in our shelters are pits and pit mixes. Our humane society charges $125 for a puppy under 6 months. Our SPCA charges $195 + $75 for training classes. You don't get anything for nothing.


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## selzer

Stevenzachsmom said:


> The pups are adorable and I am glad you will love the pup, regardless of whether or not it is purebred. Sometimes, mixes are the best. Personally, I don't see a problem with $200 for mix. A mixed pup requires the same amount of shots and care as a purebred. In my area, if these puppies were in a rescue they would cost $250 - $275. The only puppies you would be likely to find in our shelters are pits and pit mixes. Our humane society charges $125 for a puppy under 6 months. Our SPCA charges $195 + $75 for training classes. You don't get anything for nothing.


I agree. 

Even at $200 a head, when you consider the amount of time goes into keeping the puppies warm and fed and clean, finding homes, selling the puppies, and the whole nine yards, after deducting the vet bill, and the food bill, it isn't raking in money hand over fist -- not enough really to desire to go through it again and again. 

And, yes, you will pay a rescue or a shelter that much for a puppy. Even a mixed breed pup. There are plenty of reasons why you might not want to go that route. You might not want to have a pup altered by 8 or 9 weeks. And you might not want to bring a puppy home from a place like a shelter, where parvo is always a concern. Parvo is always a concern from anywhere, but places where dogs come in and out regularly, and there is a volume of dogs, the probability of the dog contracting it in such places is just higher. 

Enjoy the puppy. It's here and it needs a home. I would not want to see it have to land in a shelter before a rescue swipes it out of there, because shelters are so scary (disease) for young puppies. So I would rather this breeder get her $200, she isn't ruining the breed. No one that is trying to maintain the breed is going to be breeding from dogs she produced. 

We can get carried away sometimes with our zeal for who should breed what. The breeder is not breaking any laws or rules by having a litter of unregistered puppies. It is not like buying a pup at a pet store, where someone back there is keeping hundreds of bitches in tiny poop-filled cages, and breeding them as often as possible to keep the pet store's full.


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## Stevenzachsmom

*"And you might not want to bring a puppy home from a place like a shelter, where parvo is always a concern. Parvo is always a concern from anywhere, but places where dogs come in and out regularly, and there is a volume of dogs, the probability of the dog contracting it in such places is just higher."

*This is so true. I keep wondering throughout this whole long thread, if people have forgotten about YORCHI's original puppy? Remember? He adopted a GSD puppy from a shelter. The puppy died of distemper. YORCHI wanted to do the right thing and adopt from a shelter. He did. It didn't turn out well. I hope "Daisy" is healthy and lives a long happy life. Enjoy your puppy!


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## my boy diesel

there is no guarantee these pups wont become ill with whatever either
in fact good rescues or shelters usually know a good deal more about vaccination and deworming schedules than a person who had an oopsie litter


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> there is no guarantee these pups wont become ill with whatever either
> in fact good rescues or shelters usually know a good deal more about vaccination and deworming schedules than a person who had an oopsie litter


I disagree with this in general. Parvo and distemper do not just develop in puppies. The pup must be exposed to the disease. If the dam is in a family who cares for their dogs, she has probably been vaccinated and probably has sufficient antibodies in her system, so that the pups will probably be protected up to 8 or 10 weeks, maybe longer. 

Puppies that have been dumped at the shelter are far more likely to have come from situations where people are not very conscientious right out of the gate. And the chances of being exposed to dogs from owners who are not very conscientious is just way higher. So if it is about stacking the deck in our favor, go to the breeder who bred their pets, but is caring for them, over the breeder who dumped the dam and pups in the shelter. 

As for shelter workers knowing more about vaccine schedules, that may be. We know that if this breeder is going to vaccinate at 5 weeks, they are not very knowledgeable in this area. But, depending on when the dam's immunity wears off, could be any time if she was vaccinated, 7 weeks, 9 weeks, we don't know. So, the chances that the puppy, even vaccinated at the shelter will have been vaccinated AFTER the immunity wore off, and AFTER it has had the chance for the antibodies to build up in its system, but BEFORE it is exposed is really almost impossible. And a lot of shelters, in realizing this, when they have a parvo outbreak, they euthanize all of them, all the pups, dogs that could have possibly been exposed in the shelter. That is what they do here.

Getting puppies out of shelter situations may be a higher priority, but getting a puppy that isn't seriously ill out of the gate, you are better off going with that breeder. Even an imperfect one that is just breeding pets for $200. 

If the OP has dealt with distemper already from a shelter, than I can certainly understand avoiding the shelter altogether.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I volunteer with an awesome GSD rescue. We pull shepherd and shepherd mix puppies from shelters - often with mama dog. It is not unusual for at least some of those puppies to die, before we even get them into foster homes. Shelters and rescues can know all about scheduling for vaccinations and deworming, but once the puppy is exposed to something in the shelter, that is a moot point.

It is true that there are never any guarantees. In this case, the OP already adopted a GSD puppy from a shelter that contracted distemper. That puppy is dead.


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## Betty

YORCHI said:


> I made up my mind, and I'm feeling good about the choice I made.


And that is all that matters!

Sounds to me like the pup has won the lottery!


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## my boy diesel

*The pup must be exposed to the disease.*
i know that lol
however the op exposed the pups in all likelihood when they went to visit unless there was a tub of disinfectant by the door when they walked in since parvo is everywhere
flies can transmit the disease even if nobody visits 
and if they take the pups to the vet selzer you have said in numerous other threads that is another way they get sick


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## Madisonmj97

Melissa98409 said:


> I paid $100.00 for Jericho and couldn't be more happy with him. I happened to pay much less then you and found the same happiness.


And that ^ is exactly what I was saying.


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> *The pup must be exposed to the disease.*
> i know that lol
> however the op exposed the pups in all likelihood when they went to visit unless there was a tub of disinfectant by the door when they walked in since parvo is everywhere
> flies can transmit the disease even if nobody visits
> and if they take the pups to the vet selzer you have said in numerous other threads that is another way they get sick


So far, I have taken every litter to the vet. I do not let them crawl around on the floor. But they go to the vet to get examined and their first shots. I always ask before people touch them, "no parvo or anything yucky today?" They always say no. But, disease can be present without even knowing it in the incubation stage, so it is always a possibility. You can be careful and ask people to wash their hands first. Definitely do not let the puppy examine other dogs' poop. But the 15-20 minutes that they are there, they MAY get a disease. 

At 7 weeks, even 5 weeks, they can actually support a fever, so chances are they are not going to DIE from something that an older dog coughs once or twice from, like canine herpes, which is actually everywhere, moreso even than parvo or distemper. You all don't here about it much because by the time you get your puppies their temperature is up to 101.5 and a fever of 102 or 103 knocks it out. People never realize their pup is sick. But, breeders know about it because new puppies are at 96 degrees and cannot support a fever that can kill it. It will cause massive internal bleeding and can wipe out an entire litter. So, you are right, I always warn when someone suggests taking a bitch and pups in for a check after whelping. Any illness can be devastating for young puppies. 

In the 20 minutes you are at the vet for first shots, you might be exposed to parvo if it is there. A fly might have been on an offering outside, and then came in and sat on the table, and maybe it is enough to transmit the disease. Maybe. But in a shelter atmosphere, those flies are everywhere. They are moving from poop to poop and puppies in the shelter are so much more likely to become infected being there 24/7, in a kennel, bored, eating poop, exposed.


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## YORCHI

FWIW, we used hand sanitizer on our hands before entering the house and touching the puppies and parents. Then we washed our hands and used hand sanitizer again before getting into our car and coming home.


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## MariaCarin

i'm looking for a rescue to pull a gs for me urgently do you know what i can do?


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## David Winners

MariaCarin said:


> i'm looking for a rescue to pull a gs for me urgently do you know what i can do?


Starting your own thread would be a good place to start. Adding information about the dog, it's location and the circumstances would be helpful as well. 

David Winners


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