# Electronic Collar?



## erin679 (Dec 1, 2006)

We have a 1.5yr old gsd female who is often off leash in wooded areas and she loves to run. She is very good usually yet has the disturbing habit of chasing the occasional jogger. She's usually not aggressive but every once in a while she'll see a jogger across the way and begin to chase. Once or twice she has tried to grab their sleeve. She doesn't growl or bark, just chases. I usually try to keep an eye out for joggers and I usually bring some tasty treats so I know I can get her back to me if we do come across one, but obviously this is difficult. We have been in several training classes and are currently taking one now and trying to work on our recall but once she gets it in her head to chase, it is sometimes impossible to stop her. Now, obviously most of you will say she shouldn't be off leash, and yes, there is a leash law, but we live in a wooded area w lots of trails and she gets her best exercise racing through the woods and running hard. Our instructor is anti choke collars, so I imagine she must be REALLY anti electronic collars so I thought I'd post here and ask if anyone thinks an electronic collar might work in this situation. It would only be for when she is off leash and if she starts to go after a jogger. I just cant seem to get thru to her once she has fixated on the jogger and from what I've read the electronic collar where I would have a remote seems like it might break the fixation. Thoughts??


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

That would be exactly the age I would use an e-collar BUT you have to do it right or you really can mess up your dog. All my friends who just buy them, put them on the dog and refuse to really read up on the directions and proper useage really screw up their dogs either long or short term. Or end up with a collar-wise dog that only listens pretty much ever when they have the 'heavy' collar on.

Point being, if you do choose to go the e-collar route, I'd be locating a good e-collar trainer in your area you have confidence in. And arrange for a few privates with them for when the collar comes in.

For many, the e-collar seems like a quick and easy fix, and (short term) may appear to be working out. But the fact is, they are just like everything else we train our dogs, the human component is the weak link when we are lazy, inconsistant, or just don't bother to bone up on the method (directions? who needs directions?). Added to the fact we have to continue for months (years) with the consistancy and training so our dogs understand in a calm and clear way.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

It's just my 2 cents, but that is a lawsuit waiting to happen. I work for a defense firm as a paralegal. It is a nightmare for a homeowner if their dog bites. Your insurance company may offer you a defense but will most likely not insure you again and then it's hard to find insurance that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Sorry, but it's aways the dog's fault.


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## erin679 (Dec 1, 2006)

I know this is a serious problem and we are in training but I am just trying to think of a way where she can still be off leash and she, as well as others, can still be safe. Somebody mentioned the e collar to me and it sounded like a possibility... I'd love to hear more thoughts...of course I'd be learning more about it and how to work with it before I put it on her.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gretta06I know this is a serious problem and we are in training but I am just trying to think of a way where she can still be off leash and she, as well as others, can still be safe. Somebody mentioned the e collar to me and it sounded like a possibility... I'd love to hear more thoughts...of course I'd be learning more about it and how to work with it before I put it on her.


http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm has some really good articles as a background. But I can't stress enough, the only people/dogs that I have seen this work our well with (including my dogs) is when we do it inconjunction with a good trainer who knows our goals and uses it to train NOT to correct. So while I also read up on everything and talked to everyone, I knew (for my dog's sake) to 'bite the bullet' and also use a trainer.


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## erin679 (Dec 1, 2006)

This may be a dumb question, but why is it bad to use as a correction? Wouldn't she catch on quickly, and know not to chase, once she started after a jogger and got the zap? This is the only time we plan on using it.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I used to think the e-collar was terrible. But used correctly it is a good training tool. I have one. It's a whole lot cheaper than going through a law suit. I had a trainer who is extremely knowledgable in the use of e-collars to show me how and when to use it. I bought a Dogtra but there are others out there that are good.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Ahh those poor joggers!!!! I can't believe she has gone after their sleave.

Ask your trainer. My trainer is totally against choke collars but for prong collars and the e collar.

There is a great dvd on the Leerburg site that explains step by step how to use the e collar correctly.

I bought the dvd and e collar but have not watched the dvd yet.

I definately would get a trainer to help or invest in the dvd. Until this is fixed at least try to go out at odd hours when you are least likely to see joggers. It is only fair to the joggers and other dog owners.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Hey, you're in Beantown? I grew up there, and just recently moved to Germany. Try giving Terry Haskins a call. He is an electronic collar specialist. He trains people to use these collars motivationally, not as some heavy-handed punishment, but as a method of training. Ironicly, for some sensitive dogs, they finally can relax and learn better without anything restricting face, head, body, or neck.. no constriction, just a soft reminder from the collar cues them to pay attention, a command (chance to earn praise!) is coming up. I do not use an e-collar on my dog currently, unless for offlead recall practice, but reccomend getting a trained specialist to guide you. A few lessons may cost you, but it is worth it if it is for the dog's safety, and learning how to correctly use these collars is best by a qualified professional.

My last working assistance dog's trainer reccomended Terry to me. Sadly, I moved away before I could meet him! Here's the link.

http://sitmeanssit.com/dog-training-locations/dog-training-boston-massachusetts/


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## erin679 (Dec 1, 2006)

Thanks so much for the referral!! I will def check Terry out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: This may be a dumb question, but why is it bad to use as a correction? Wouldn't she catch on quickly, and know not to chase, once she started after a jogger and got the zap? This is the only time we plan on using it.


Because what a good trainer/handler/dog owner want to do is have a great bond with their dog and an absolutely 100% joyful and reliable 'come'. So whether a cat tears across your path, or another dog, or a squirrel, or a jogger. What we are actually talking about here is you TRAINING your dog to have a joyful reliable 'come'.

And why shouldn't we train our dog to do something they learn to want to do, rather than deliberately choosing to train by 'punishing' them when they are bad. Rather 'train' them to do something I want (come).

Did you read thru the Lou Castle site I posted? He believes in training with Trust and Respect http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The collar can be used for corrections, but the dog needs to be introduced to the collar. They must understand how to turn the collar off. If you were to just put it on her and start correcting her it is possible she could bolt from confusion. It is also possible it could make her aggressive to the jogger she is chasing. Contact the e-collar trainer mentioned earlier and read Lou's articles.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Before you buy that Leerburg DVD on e-collar training, I would check out Lou Castles website. He does not have a very favorable opinion of it.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

PLEASE don't go out and buy an e-collar without proper instruction, from a professional, on how to use one.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: TracieBefore you buy that Leerburg DVD on e-collar training, I would check out Lou Castles website.



Agree 100%.


Lou provides a wealth of information about ecollars on his site, every bit as much as you can get elsewhere... for free. And he is also willing to answer any questions via email, and even do phone consults if people need additional advice or instruction.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

that's a great site, glad you guys posted it! 

it's been recommended to me to buy an e-collar, for teagan's prey aggression and her dog aggression, and i've been really unsure of how it would work without making her more aggressive - i'd always read not to use e-collars for dog aggression.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I am someone who owns the Leerburg DVD in question and would not recommend it. It's very general, and nowhere near the resource that Lou's site is.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks john! i was thinking of buying from there, and since the dvd is 50% when you get the collar.....very good to know, thanks









(good thing i haven't found the measuring tape to measure teagan for her new muzzle, i was going to order them all at the same time)


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Good luck, just be consistant......Lou is awesome. I have e-mailed him for advice myself. He is wonderful and wrote back immediately. I definately agree with everyone saying to get a professional to help you. Fitting properly and learning how to find the lowest working level is very important to use this as a tool. I definately recommend putting the collar on yourself to see what it feels like.(By the way, my daughter said she likes the stim from the collar)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I'm not a fan of the Leerburg video as has been mentioned. You can read my review of it here. http://loucastle.com/books.htm 

I’m also not a fan of many of the trainers who follow the teaching of sitmeanssit. Some of them were experienced trainers before they learned how to use the Ecollar from the owner of that franchise. But some were not. The school is three weeks long, costs $5,000 and includes marketing advice. You can have absolutely no dog training experience, go to the school and come out as a _"Certified Remote Training Collar Specialist." _ Such certifications, issued by the person who owns the school, are just about worthless. 

In any case, those folks often use monstrously high levels of stim to blast the dog into immobility and then they show them the only way to make the pain stop is to dog as required. I've seen them put a dog into learned helplessness, a horrid condition where the dog stops all movement because "everything hurts." 

They'll talk abut how use the Ecollar in a "motivational way." But this is their own definition of "motivation" and not one that most other people think of when they think of "motivational training. Every animal is "motivated" to escape pain, and with the levels of stim that they use, it's definitely painful. 

BUT some trainers have taken that method and modified it to be humane. I'd say that if someone is billing themselves as a "Remote Trainer Specialist" they've had little experience out side the Ecollar and this school, and I'd avoid them. If they have lots of experience training dogs before going to that school, I'd take a look, but still you need to be careful. 

If you train the dog to recall and sit with my methods the dog will learn that when the stim starts he's doing the wrong thing and that when it stops he's doing the right thing. THEN you can use it to stop him from chasing the joggers by simply recalling him when he starts to chase them. You can combine a stim with a "NO" when he shows interest in them and he'll know that you don't want him to show that interest. 

BUT if you just put the collar on him and stim him when he chases the joggers, he can become aggressive towards them, making our problem much worse.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I actually just emailed Lou with a detailed description of Teagan's aggression. 

I can recognize the Leerburg video's in Lou's review, but I am horrified at some of the content that's apparently there. 

I mean, I do correct Teagan's aggression, but I've also been trying to work on refocusing her and having that be the focus of what we are doing rather than corrections. Maybe that's not right w/her aggression, but I wanted to give it a try. I can't always get her notice on the prong when she's in drive, so I can see the e-collar potentially addressing that, and also being a more flexible tool than the prong. 

But I am also a new handler - I've had dogs for what - almost 8 months now - and I don't want to do this wrong. The only e-collar people I've seen in Toronto are the Sit Means Sit folk. The trainer I initially took Luc to for his (small) aggression issues I fired (posted elsewhere why) and I've never found another trainer in the city who doesn't freak out if you say GSD and aggression in the same sentence. 

Anyways, am now thinking I need more opinions about whether the e-collar is right for us. I think it could be, but I'd like more opinions.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jarn, the most important thing to remember is that the e-collar can be an amazing tool when used properly. But if we rush and don't do it well, can really mess up our dogs in a bad way, possibly permanently. 

Which is why it's so important to train with it the right way from the very start. Read up on it a ton, but really really really try to get an experienced trainer to help. Just one of those situations that you don't know what you don't know (and you may think you DO know).


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

oh, that's one of the things that makes me so nervous about getting an e-collar....not using it properly and making something worse. especially since my big issues w/teagan are dog aggression and prey aggression. 

i've worked hard w/teagan, and i know a more experienced handler would probably get faster results with her, but i am getting results, she is improving, and i'm learning a lot. but i am LEARNING, and that's part of what makes me nervous. also, i've really had difficulties finding a trainer who i'm comfortable with in the area.

i did read it's a good idea to have the dog wear the e-collar for a few weeks so that they don't get collar-wise.


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## erin679 (Dec 1, 2006)

I obviously had no intention of throwing an e collar on her w/no clue how to use it! I've been emailing with Lou and he was really helpful (wrote back right away) and I've also contacted the other person referred to me and he is hopefully coming over to our house to give a demonstration and we will take it from there. Thanks for the help!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I've actually had Ava's collar on for a couple of months (just before Christmas).....I put it on in the morning, check it periodically throughout the day...stim level and position. I take it off at night before bed. I'm getting ready to phase her back into a regular collar. But my trainer has worked with me on all of this.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

> Quote: Now, obviously most of you will say she shouldn't be off leash, and yes, there is a leash law, but we live in a wooded area w lots of trails and she gets her best exercise racing through the woods and running hard.


At least until you get the ecollar working reliably for you, I would definitely keep your dog on leash. As someone above posted, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Having a dog chase someone can be bad enough, but to have the dog actually try to grab ahold of the person's clothing.......not just a lawsuit but potential for losing your dog. I used to live in a wooded area like that, which also required leashes. And I came across someone trying to work in an ecollar. As their two dogs came charging at me and my GSD female (on leash), the owners were nowhere in sight. When my yells finally got their attention and they came running, they said they had an "electronic leash." Needless to say, it ruined a lot of temperament work I had been doing with my rescued female GSD and I was very much afraid for my safety and that of my dog at the time. Everyone always says that their dogs are friendly....but how does a stranger on the street/trails know that? From then on I carried things that would help me defend myself and my dog if necessary. 

And even an ecollar is not a leash. I would be very careful with this if the law requires a leash in your area. It's not just that you know your dog wouldn't bite the skin of a person. That person doesn't know and if they have had bad experiences with dogs in the past, imagine what could happen when your dog bites their clothing and they begin hitting your dog to get it off of them. It could very quickly turn into a real bite....with your dog losing out in court. So for the joggers and other dogs out there (and your own dog), please keep your dog on leash at least until you have a 100% reliable recall (most likely with an ecollar). 

Personally, I use an ecollar for my younger GSD. But for the sake of laws and the rights of other people/dogs out on the trails, I don't have him off-leash in those areas that require leashes. The ecollar is for areas where he is allowed off leash.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i just wanted to say i spoke w/lou last night and he was a great help









i'm feeling like this is really going to be a great tool to work w/teagan. she's a funny girl - she can be aggressive, but she can also be so sweet. 

even when she had aggression issues w/being petted (she doesn't like people reaching over her), i have taught her she needs to show better manners even if she doesn't like it, but at the time we were still working on 'don't bare your teeth at people who reach over you' (people aren't very good at listening to 'let her sniff you and pet the side of her head' instructions), we were waiting at a streetcar stop after our swimming rehab, and a very drunk older woman came up to me and start telling me how much she loved GSDs, she used to have one, but it got arthritis - did i know GSDs could get arthritis (as a matter of fact, yes!), and then it died. at that point she started crying, teagan was watching her with absolute fascination, and she asked me if she could pet teagan. i said yes, b/c teagan looked so interested and not at all annoyed by the woman, and of course she petted her over her head, doing all the things teagan hates, and that she was still reactive about, and teagan just sat there and let her pet her and acted like an angel. the woman left in a barrage of cooing 'i love yous!' at teagan. she behaved so perfectly. i find she often will if she's appealed to, or if someone really needs her. anyways, that's the teagan i want to be the visible teagan, not the muzzled in public places teagan, b/c she is so good hearted, and i know we can do that, and i'm really feeling the e-collar is going to be great for that.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

This is a perfect example of why dogs are what they are and that their behavior is created by us. The woman was crying, physically non threatening (probably a bit wobbly from age and inebriation) and the exact opposite of dominant or physically capable. Teagan had no issues because of this. Show her a dominant stance though...


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

yup, exactly. show her a dominant stance, she's not gonna be happy. but she was an angel w/this lady, and the time w/the PSD attack - i'd given her to my mother while i ran down the road to look for luc, since i can move faster that way, and when my mother saw she'd broken the prong (thank goodness for thick long coat fur!), she wrapped her arms around teagan and begged her to stay with her, she said 'teagan i need you' - obviously teagan doesn't know what was said, but she stayed with mother, and stayed calm with her (and when i got there i had my mom clip her into her other collar....the one time i didn't have a backup attached. sigh). but teagan was amped up and aggressive - she went after the owner a few minutes later - but she allowed my mother to basically encompass her in a big hug (which dogs just love LOL) and stayed with her. it's stuff like that which makes me love her so much









and man, having started to read about how dogs use body language - i know i can't do it like a dog, but it has been SO useful! 

(and now i'm totally off-topic)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jarn, your dog NOT liking to be pet over the head is a great example of why I like to use food/treats to socialize my dogs.

If you pack up a ziplock of chicken/cheese/hotdogs/whatever and bring it with you every time you go out. Then when people ask to pet your dog you INSTEAD ask them to help give your dog a treat.

There's a bunch of reasons why this food thing works so well. First, if I have a treat in my open hand (like I'm feeding a horse? and that's what I ask strangers to do, feed in their open palm) it FORCES the person to come in to the dog with their hand low and under the dogs face so the dog can see and lick it off. Means NONE of that over the head scary stuff. And I just keep handing out the treats so their hands stays low low low.

Also it makes my dogs think of people like wonderful walking treat dispensors. So how NON-intimidating and threatening is that? If my dogs are thinking 'um, will that person give me chicken?' then she is NOT thinking 'um, that person is scary scary scary'.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

I've never used one myself but from what I've read about them if one uses them with the idea that it is simply a longer leash then I see no reason why they should not be effective. Cruelty is cruelty, no matter what the method.
I firmly believe in the maxim that you should never give a command you are not in a position to enforce. 
The idea of degrees of reliable recall like "He's real good except for squirrels, cats, joggers, mailmen or motorcycles, pick one that applies, is kind of like being a little bit pregnant.
I would suspect that if a dog has never had any corrections of any sort and a strong, "NO!" doesn't have the effect of the voice of God then the ecollar will be somewhat of a bewildering experience and the results will likely be very unpredictable.
OTOH, I also believe one proper correction is worth 100 nags.
The main thing with corrections to me is, no corrections for anything until I'm absolutely sure he understands the command and is being disobedient.


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