# dog training VS horse training



## maxsmom1229 (Apr 12, 2007)

ive been riding horses for a while, always cared for my own, worked in exchange for riding etc. but ive never trained or broke any horses. i have watched short sessions of people breaking horses, but every person of course has their own different way. for those of you that have trained horses, is it much different then training a dog? i mean despite the obvious...*L*..... do you work with positive reinforcements and rewards or do you have to teach in a different manner. what im asking i guess, is if i were to get a yearling, with outside help from a trainer, would i be able to mold him into a well rounded safe animal to be around/ride? is it much more dangerous for someone with no experience training with yearlings? or even very green horses? im not running out and buying a foal LOL but in the next 2 years or so i will be in the market for my own horse again (we will be out of the army!!) and was pondering getting a project. of sorts. somebody that needs a little extra TLC perhaps because they arent a pushbutton horse. thanks so much for your input! and happy trails haha


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jan Fennell's forward of _The Dog Listener_ was written by Monty Roberts...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, actually there are some similarities. In both cases you are working on positive reinforcement. With a horse it is the release of pressure that is the reward.
If you have a trainer you are working with, I don't see why you shouldn't get a baby and start it yourself. But if you don't have any experience working with babies, hook up with a trainer first. The youngsters are a whole new world! 
If you had a trainer coming out weekly and working with you, it should be fine.
Yes, it is much, much more dangerous for an inexperienced person to try and do it alone (or even partly alone). I took on the yearling half-brother to my own gelding a few years ago and it was an eye opening experience. 
Check out some of the equine rescues in your area. The economy has hit the horse world even harder than the dog world. There are a ton of really nice, nice horses needing homes.
Good luck.
Sheilah


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I think it is very similiar. I would recommend anything by Monty Roberts as well. Karen Pryor has some good stuff on clicker training with horses. 
I respectfully disagree with sit,stay that the reward is a release of pressure only, as you could equate that to releasing pressure on the leash of a dog with a training collar on. 
There is some really great stuff out there using TTouch and positive training. 
We need to think out of the box when it comes to training all animals!


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

Hi Dawn,

My background is in dressage and I have trained with an internationally recognized trainer (www.karlmikolka.com), competed and ridden in exhibitions. I have started 9 young horses under saddle and have worked with countless older horses, including my trainer’s retired Air’s horse, both professionally and as a hobby. My dog training experience is much less and I have not competed (yet). 

There are some similarities between dog and horse training, but I think there are more differences. Yes they both use positive reinforcement, but different types. To proof both dogs and horses you need to exposed them to everything and still require them to work and be attentive to you. The biggest difference in this is that horses are a flight animal and dogs a fight animal and I think they respond very differently. 

The biggest difference in horse training is that the rider has so much influence over the horse because of being physically on top of them that it is very easy to make a mistake on a young horse that will be carried on and difficult to “undo”. Horses respond literally, whether you are right or wrong. Your skill and confidence in the saddle is extremely important. You need to have an independent seat, soft hands and very good balance. Young horses are very unbalanced in the beginning (I call it the drunken sailor stage) and they need to figure out how to move and carry your weight without falling. 

If you want to work with a young horse I would first find a reputable trainer and tell them your plans and have them evaluate your position and ability on the lunge line. If you cannot make a trained horse walk, trot, canter and then trot, walk, halt on a lunge without reins and stirrups, your seat and hands are not independent and your balance is not good enough for a green horse. If you can do this than I would say that you would be fine to start a horse with the supervision of a trainer. At least in the beginning you will need a second set of hands until the horse has “steering and brakes” and then to help you progress periodic lessons. An excellent book on training is “Complete Training of Horse and Rider by Alois Podhajsky”. No matter what discipline you ride in all horses need a foundation in the basics.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

When you are starting with a yearling or green horse I used a lot of hands off things to teach my horses. If I wanted a horse to learn to back I would step towards them and the second they tipped their head and gave a backwards movement I would say back. Horses like dogs respond to what I call body pressure. I enjoyed the ground work training. I got my horse use to as many commands as I could doing ground work so when it came time for saddle work, they knew the verbal and then they could relate that to the different body or rein pressure. There are some great books on training and different styles, but they pretty much boil down to horse give to pressure.


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## maxsmom1229 (Apr 12, 2007)

thanks so much for all the replies. i always check rescues first. some of them come from hard backgrounds, have trust issues, or haven't been ridden in years. and a few years ago these issues would have turned me off completely. but i feel much more confident as a rider now (these german trainers whooped my butt into shape. they are strict riders here) and would like to help out some horsey that might have a harder time finding a home because they arent broke to ride. i agree it will be a challenge, considering dogs react total opposite from horses in the flight or fight factor. but i hope it will be a rewarding challenge. thanks again for all the great answers.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think Stanna said it well. Horses are prey, Dogs are the predator.

Temple Granden's book on how animals think might be an interesting read for you.


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## CLF (Dec 23, 2007)

Strana said it really well. I showed "A" circuit hunters for 6 years (we sold my last horse before I left for college http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563266764kXKqRp )

I think it's very different from training a dog. 

with a horse you don't get the bond that you do with dogs (they are never going to live in the house with you)

breaking & training a horse requires you to be on its back and if you are not 100% confident up there it's going to make the horse lose confidence and being on an unpredictable young horse is not for the weak nerved (he freaks you out, you freak him out and its a downward spiral from there) 

when you are working with a young horse (or any horse) your riding skills are your only method of communication and you have to be a pretty advanced rider to have any positive effect training a green horse (independent hand, seat & legs)

If you want to get a project, I would recommend at least getting one that has been backed and has some training (If you have any interest in OTTBs check out canterusa.org)

I would also highly recommend finding a reputable trainer that will be able to guide/supervise you.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If you ever choose to do agility with you dog, and you've done jump training with a horse, there is a TON of information that you have that will help.

People have been working out the best way to have a horse jump for about a million years (well, maybe not a million). And the fact you are on top of the horse and don't want to fall or get hurt, has REALLY made these rider/trainers figure out alot of details that we 'dog' people used to take for granted. Heck, everyone's dog knows how to jump, right?

NOT!!!!

All our dogs can fling themselves up and over, but that isn't necessarily all the skills needed at speed, with turns on an agility course. Distance between jumps, turning, lead changes, number of strides, extension, collection, turning tight, wing jumps vs plain jumps vs panel jumps vs triple vs double vs broad............... 

So all you horse jumping people really seem to 'get' the jumping stuff right away and what's going on with a knocked bar and how to fix it technically. While we 'dog' people just think the dog's not keeping it's feet up doggonit!!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Strana1 is correct. They are not the same. Some similarities. I have found many ex riders make very good dog trainers maybe do to a natural feel or just a talent for working with animals. 

Something similar is that both animals do learn to cue off of our bodies. Only difference is that a dog uses his sight and a horse, since you are on his back, is responding to feel.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Dogs are primarily positive reinforcement learners. Horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners, which is exactly what sit stay said but the termonology as I learned it is different. The word negative has such, well, _negative_ connontations that people don't want to hear it.
With a horse it is the release of pressure that is the reward. The removal of pressure is the negative- you are removing something. In positive reinforcement you are giving something- a treat, praise, etc.
There is positive punishment- a snap from a pinch collar for example because you are adding something- and negative punishment- when you turn your attention away from a jumping up dog-removing your attention. In these situations positive and negative simply mean whether you are adding something or taking it away.
When I taught my horse to move away from the pressure from my leg by stepping sideways this is counter to her instincts, which is to move TOWARD pressure. I applied the pressure with my leg in a steady manner and then she tried forward, no, that wasn't right, OK maybe that means backwards, no I still have the pressure so that isn't right, and then as SOON as she moves away even a millimeter I let up. Then she knows that was the correct answer.
Classic negative reinforcement- horses learn best this way, dogs don't.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Reinforcement is different than punishment, but I get what you are saying Lucina. Just because something is described as negative, it does not mean it is really bad, it could be simple as ending play or putting a toy away.

Positive Reinforcement- Reinforcing with something the animal finds rewarding

Negative Reinforcement- Reinforcing with something the animal find uncomfortable enough to avoid, and is removed upon performing the desired behavior. 

Positive punishment involves presenting a negative consequence to an undesirable behavior the moment the animal engages in the undesirable behavior.

Negative punishment involves removing something the dog desires from him the moment he performs an undesirable behavior

You can teach a horse to respond to a cue with just a touch, which is not unpleasant, but has been associated with a behavior, and that can be taught with negative or postive reinforcement with any animal. 

What I am trying to say is that you can't peg horses into learning primarily with negative reinforcement, or you could do the same with dogs. It works either way, it just depends on the trainer and the animal.

And in the 70's everyone said that dogs learn best by negative reinforcement, today we are discovering that isn't necessarily true. It may be easier and faster to some trainers though.
All I am saying in a long winded post, is that claiming horses learn best this way IMO isn't taking into consideration that the same was said for dogs for years and we have a lot of information to dispute that now, and/or isn't considering other methods that have been proved successful with horses as well, ie clicker TTouch etc. And pressure does not have to be negative reinforcement.




PS sorry for the thread hijack.


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

Yes the are alot of things that are almost the same. Body language being one of the big things. I have started out many yearlings and I do find it close to working with the dog. Patience is MUST. If you ever have any questions please feel free to pm me anytime


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Same- you have to be a good leader. 
Different- they are different species and learn differently because of the prey/predator relationship.
The specifics of this has many variations, but I firmly believe that if you treat a horse like a dog you WILL have a problem.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Herd dynamics are HUGE- and understanding them in my very humble opinion is key to training horses. One example- my horses do not rub on me because I do not allow it- I understand it is a violation of my space that causes my horse to think he's higher than me in the pecking order. I try very hard to understand the natural mechanisms that horses use to determine rank which are very different than what dogs do, and respond to each and every challenge (which is natural, normal horse behavior) in a way that reinforces the fact that I am in charge. If you are not aware of how horses think and act then you cannot respond in ways that elevate your position in the herd, because many of them are counter intuitive. We are not horses and first we must learn their language. Then we can communicate.
I do this for my own safety and my horse's comfort- If my horse ever thinks that I am not in charge then I am not safe either on the ground or in the saddle. He is MUCH happier if he has confidence in me, and he will follow me rather than his instincts. If he thinks I can't lead, he will, and I think we all know intuitively that is not a good situation.


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## CLF (Dec 23, 2007)

I also think there is a big difference between working with a horse on the ground vs on their back. Working with a horse on the ground is much more comparable to training a dog than under saddle training. 

The thing about under saddle training is that knowing what you need to be doing doesn't mean that you are able to execute and get it done.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaHerd dynamics are HUGE- and understanding them in my very humble opinion is key to training horses. One example- my horses do not rub on me because I do not allow it- I understand it is a violation of my space that causes my horse to think he's higher than me in the pecking order. I try very hard to understand the natural mechanisms that horses use to determine rank which are very different than what dogs do, and respond to each and every challenge (which is natural, normal horse behavior) in a way that reinforces the fact that I am in charge. If you are not aware of how horses think and act then you cannot respond in ways that elevate your position in the herd, because many of them are counter intuitive. We are not horses and first we must learn their language. Then we can communicate.
> I do this for my own safety and my horse's comfort- If my horse ever thinks that I am not in charge then I am not safe either on the ground or in the saddle. He is MUCH happier if he has confidence in me, and he will follow me rather than his instincts. If he thinks I can't lead, he will, and I think we all know intuitively that is not a good situation.


I absolutely agree with this, and I think once this is understood you will be able to read other animals (yes different dynamics) but it is transferrable. In this way I think horse training is very much like dog training. Conditioning and drives are different, as they are with chicken, sheep, cows and other animals, but understanding and being able to read and communicate through body language bridges training with different species, IMO.

Besides the speices difference, each individual animal learns differently as well, and has it's own quirks that have to be considered. 
I think we are all on the same page here


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## jmopaso (Nov 27, 2008)

Everyone above has excellent points a great insight into the behaviors and differences of the two species.

I have been in horses for over 30 years, dogs for about as long and children for 17 1/2 years, (children are the hardest). Horses, dogs, and children are very similar. Yes, the drives and the mechanisms are very different, but many of the principles are the same.

Very basically, with most of all of the above, if you expect them to behave, perform... they will do so. You must just apply not only what works with the species, but what works for the indivdual, whichever the speices may be.


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