# Bark and hold.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I took Athena out tonight to work on the bark and hold. Besides the obvious. My sloppy presentation or cramming the wedge into her mouth. What else should I be doing differently. 
https://youtu.be/JLA_Jzk3Jsw


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Are you doing this just for the heck of it, or are you planning on trying to title your dog?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

once she gets the idea, hold the bite pillow down while she is barking and raising the pillow up (like you would if you were raising an arm to block you face) will be her cue to jump up and grab the pillow. So Down is Bark, Up is Bite and Hold. 

And I am glad you got her to come up from sniffing. Sometimes it is tough to be more interesting than dirt.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Are you doing this just for the heck of it, or are you planning on trying to title your dog?


Plan on Titling. Well get our BH this September at our clubs trial. Then an IPO 1 next spring. We have started working on bark and hold some with decoy. I just figured I could help her along at home some evenings.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

car2ner said:


> once she gets the idea, hold the bite pillow down while she is barking and raising the pillow up (like you would if you were raising an arm to block you face) will be her cue to jump up and grab the pillow. So Down is Bark, Up is Bite and Hold.
> 
> And I am glad you got her to come up from sniffing. Sometimes it is tough to be more interesting than dirt.


She is normally a lot more fired up to bite. This was our last come in. We had been working for a while before this. I should have quit before this one. But I wanted to get one video so I could get some feedback and visually see myself and her. 
And yeah I'll keep the pillow down lower and raise it to bite position and let her come up for it. I don't plan on doing a lot of this stuff myself. We have a great helper at club. I just figure if I can help her get the idea behind some of this mundane stuff at home it may be more productive at club. Only having access to helper once a week can make things seem to go super slow.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bark/Hold really shouldn't be considered mundane or routine. You want the dog to show power and sustain the power in the(barking) guarding so I would not really work on this (on you). It is best done on a helper that the dog can really try to intimidate. 
Just my opinion. 
Many dogs do just fine working on a helper once per week, as long as the session is a good one(we do two sessions of protection if the dog needs it)


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I agree with Onyx, completely CD. Barking on command for a toy with her not back tied is one thing, but the conflict you can create with what you're doing there may come back to haunt you, especially the better she is in protection. Keep the conflict on the helper and you make sure she know's you're on her side.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For me, the B&H and teaching the dog the correct motivation for performing the exercise is complex. You have to know your dog's drive package. You have to train your dog that he is actually holding and controlling the helper with his bark in the same way he does with his bite, which is not natural for a dog. The bite is not supposed to be a prey reinforcement. You want a balance of prey, fight/active aggression and defense, which requires the right dog and the correct foundation training. Having said that, it becomes very difficult to get a correctly motivated dog that is actually holding, controlling and fighting the helper with his bark because you need a dog with the right balance of drives and the exercise is done so much in training, it becomes difficult for the dog to see it other than a prey reinforcement exercise. 
IMO, teaching your own dog to do a B&H at any time interferes with the goals I'm stating. Topographically, the behavior kind of looks similar to a strong dog that is actually holding and fighting the helper with his bark, but in the dog's head things can be night and day. For example, most people know what a counter is when it comes to a bite. The dog bites the sleeve and then counters forward, gripping deeper and stronger on the sleeve. But a dog can also counter with his bark in the B&H, and if you or the helper don't know that, the training is incorrect and you end up just teaching the dog a circus trick of barking to get to bite the sleeve. A counter in the bark results when the dog is holding/barking at the helper and the helper is able to tap into some defensive aggression through his presence (which only really good helpers have) and the dog counters with his bark as evidenced by the bark becoming more serious for a bark or two or a change in cadence, etc. When that happens, a good helper will reward the change in the bark with a bite. So the reward is not just for prey barking but for a display of fight and defensive aggression. The other issue is that most dogs quickly learn that they are not going to get hurt doing the B&H, so it quickly becomes very much a prey game.
In a nutshell, hope you have a dog with some aggression other than predatory/prey, such as social, defensive/reactive, active aggression, that you have a really good helper who can elicit those types of aggression, and don't train you own dog to bark for a prey object because that defeats the true purpose of the exercise. It is a luxury that most people don't have to have a really correct and balanced dog and an exceptional helper to correctly motivate the dog in this exercise.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

See everything has got to be complicated. It can't be as simple as me going out, back tying my dog, and giving her a bite when she barks and has a little rhythm. LOL. 
@ chip. Prey is her dominant drive. Or the drive that she goes to when she sees wedge, pillow, tug, etc.... But she does seem to have a fair amount of aggression available, fight drive is there, and defense is there when or if needed. We are fortunate to have a really good helper and club director. Both have said that Athena is progressing just fine. I am just impatient, we have had to spend time working on getting her to calm down and not try and scream the helper in. But to bark the helper in. Patience isn't my strongest attribute. 
So maybe I'll listen to everyone for once and let her come along slowly but correctly. I need to spend my time working on tracking and obedience anyway.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Some say 80% of training is what you don't do with your dog. What you are doing is very common. Your dog's behavior has become very reinforcing to your behavior, but there are pitfalls involved. Because of her intense prey drive, IMO, it is even more important to for you to not do any barking for a bite. Just try to keep in mind it is a guarding exercise.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bad training is worse than no training, ( not meant accusingly, because most bad training is with good intention), I tell my students that all the time when they want to go home and " help" me get to certain place with their dog. When they are ready, I do send them home to practice....but only after I see that they understand and CAN perform what they are to practice correctly. Otherwise, they inadvertently create behaviors or habits that are not strong foundationally or they create something we have to go back and undo or start over with. Soooo, bad training is worse than no training, if you are striving for a trial or test.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Bad training is worse than no training, ( not meant accusingly, because most bad training is with good intention), I tell my students that all the time when they want to go home and " help" me get to certain place with their dog. When they are ready, I do send them home to practice....but only after I see that they understand and CAN perform what they are to practice correctly. Otherwise, they inadvertently create behaviors or habits that are not strong foundationally or they create something we have to go back and undo or start over with. Soooo, bad training is worse than no training, if you are striving for a trial or test.


That is the nicest way I have ever been told " You suck stop doing that!. 
But yes I get it. It can be harder to fix wrong than to teach right the first time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You could consider just doing some grip/prey work with your dog using a wedge. There is still the element of the dog seeing things as a game and for some people that is fine. I prefer a different type of wedge that is a solid piece of stuffed jute with three handles. The trick is to make prey movements with it and not feed it to the dog but make the prey move away while the dog is striking. Then you get into the pros and cons of doing this type of work with the dog tied out or off leash. Off leash, if you develop the skill, you can learn to suck your dog into the strike which helps build strong entries and also transfers over to better grips. But then you get into violating the cardinal rule that green helpers shouldn't work green dogs. Do you use a small obedience tug for training obedience in drive? Like Flinks or Balabanov have promoted. It still requires learning a skill set, but can help build good strikes and grips while reinforcing obedience and building drive.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You could consider just doing some grip/prey work with your dog using a wedge. There is still the element of the dog seeing things as a game and for some people that is fine. I prefer a different type of wedge that is a solid piece of stuffed jute with three handles. The trick is to make prey movements with it and not feed it to the dog but make the prey move away while the dog is striking. Then you get into the pros and cons of doing this type of work with the dog tied out or off leash. Off leash, if you develop the skill, you can learn to suck your dog into the strike which helps build strong entries and also transfers over to better grips. But then you get into violating the cardinal rule that green helpers shouldn't work green dogs. Do you use a small obedience tug for training obedience in drive? Like Flinks or Balabanov have promoted. It still requires learning a skill set, but can help build good strikes and grips while reinforcing obedience and building drive.


Yeah, I use a small tug to train obedience in drive. https://www.elitek9.com/Synthetic-Tug-12/productinfo/TS12

The concept of using the tug while training obedience was a little easier than using the wedge. Probably because I was coached a little with it. But mostly because I got bit a lot when I first started. Either because of her having bad aim or me building too high and her unloading on the only other thing around "ME". I came inside many times bleeding or with teeth marks imprinted onto my body. I have one spot on my left side that still has an imprint of her mouth profile from a bite in February. Amazing how much quicker you learn when there is pain involved.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I prefer the Gappay 5X25 cm jute tug with a single handle. It is a little "meatier" than the tug you have and I don't like a handle at both ends because it encourages the dog to bite the extra handle. You have to be more careful with a single handle tug when you present it because you are going to hold one end by the handle and the other end by the end of the tug leaving about 5"-6" of space for the dog to strike. It helps to wear a good pair of thin leather gloves. I prefer the this type of tug over a ball on a string because, as I said, you can build entries, targeting and grips while doing obedience in drive. The ball on the string can be used to help build focus by teasing the dog up with up, giving an obedience command, and holding the ball above the dog's head so he will focus and remain in a sit or down and then drop the ball and he should catch it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> That is the nicest way I have ever been told " You suck stop doing that!.
> But yes I get it. It can be harder to fix wrong than to teach right the first time.


I'm glad you read my post constructively,?, many today are too quick to take offense. Actually, one of the byproducts of the IPO sport point system is the need to develop core foundational training steps to continue forward on so you can achieve maximum points. Otherwise, it is much harder and longer to reach title with respectable score,( and most trainers today in the sport train from this perspective) and since you stated you would like to do IPO....thus the basis for my comments.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I train people all the time for my Drywall/paint company. I know the importance of taking constructive criticism. I have let a lot of people go over the years who could have been really good Drywall or painters simply because they couldn't take constructive criticism. I have done Drywall and paint for 23 years. Ran my own company since 1999. I still believe I can get better and am open to suggestions/constructive criticism . The moment I am closed to the idea that I can get better then I'm as good as I will ever be. That isn't good enough. So I try and keep that same attitude with every aspect of life. Especially stuff I am new to. And training SCH for merely 6 months. I still have a lot to learn.


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