# Looking some tips for choosing a breeder in the Ontario/Canada area.



## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

I've been looking at brining a dog into my home, there have always been GSDs around the house growing up, I've loved them all, and now I'm ready to bring one into my home.

I have two very well behaved and reponsible daughters, they are hesitant around dogs, but they are learning that dogs can be fun and loyal. They are 7 and 5. So temperment is very important.

I've looked at many breeders, I started by going to the Canadian Kennel Club, and looked at their long standing members and contacted some of them to get more information. Each one of these breeders had questions ab out my family, my location etc, which I expect and want (If they show that much care about who buys their puppies, they must take pride and emotional interest in the dogs)

But one breeder after my questionairre was ready for me to send a deposit, just made me think....I haven't seen the puppies, your 6 hours away, I'm not sure I want to send a deposit then drive out and find out that me and the puppies available don't mesh well.

What types of things should I be looking at? I have read that I shouldn't take the breeders statements of "I bred two dogs with great temperments together" that I should get more information see if they have gotten inpartial (Spelling?) assessments of temperment etc. These are the type things that I'd like to get a check list of so when these breeders call me back I can ask them.

The two local breeders I'm looking at: 
Shiphra German Shepherds: http://www.shiphrashepherds.com
And
Blue Mist Kennels: http://www.bluemistgsds.com


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TrentL said:


> But one breeder after my questionairre was ready for me to send a deposit, just made me think....I haven't seen the puppies, your 6 hours away, I'm not sure I want to send a deposit then drive out and find out that me and the puppies available don't mesh well.


It's not at all uncommon for good, responsible breeders to sell to good, responsible buyers without the two ever actually meeting. Phone calls are made, interviews are conducted, references are called, pedigrees reviewed, checkes mailed, and pups shipped without the buyer and seller ever meeting. It's not at all uncommon for someone to purchase a puppy from a breeder all the way across the country, or even in another country, and both people are responsible GSD citizens. So don't let the fact that the breeder was comfortable selling to you make you think that means they're not a responsible breeder of quality puppies.

Personally, I like to meet the breeder, shake his/her hand and look them in the eye, but I'm aware that's a personal preference of mine and not an industry standard. 

It is standard for the breeder to choose your puppy for you based on your description of your home life and desired criteria. The breeder knows the bloodlines and the individual puppies' personalities after spending 8 weeks with them than you ever could from a 1 or 2 hour meeting. The chances of you "not meshing" with an 8 week old puppy are almost nil, but the chances of you falling in love with a highly unsuitable puppy are very high. That's why it's a good idea for you to rely on the breeder's guidance when choosing a puppy.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Interesting thanks, I've also found the thread about what to look for in breeders, I'm checking that and trying to come up with a list of questions. 

I have to admit its overly complicated for someone new getting into it so much to learn.

There needs to be a free online course  Hehe


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The two breeders you posted are German Show Lines. Are you partial to those lines, or are you open to others as well?


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The two breeders you posted are German Show Lines. Are you partial to those lines, or are you open to others as well?



I'm not partial to any lines is there a problem with Show Lines? God I feel like someone who is walking into HMV and asking the sales person "I'm looking for music"

I'm just so uninformed. 

I'm looking for a dog that I will be doing Obedience with (Perhaps not competing but just for fun for me and the dog) good temperament for my family, loyal and protective of our family unit, and playful. (So I guess a family pet with good bloodlines and health, who can do some light/medium obedience)


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I started a thread a while ago looking for breeders in Ontario, and did not find alot of information. You can look at the thread by clicking on my name. There are lots of breeders here, for sure, but not alot of them high profile enough to be known well in the states. 

Someone I would look at first would be: carmspack
Every time I speak to her I've found her very knowledgeable. But know that I didn't buy a puppy from her, nor have I met her dogs. It's just from our communication together and from reading her posts, she seems like a responsible breeder with actual knowledge supporting the breeding. But her dogs are showline dogs, and I know when I first started my search, I was not a fan of sables. Needless to say that has changed after seeing many of the beautiful sables on the board.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

marshies said:


> I started a thread a while ago looking for breeders in Ontario, and did not find alot of information. You can look at the thread by clicking on my name. There are lots of breeders here, for sure, but not alot of them high profile enough to be known well in the states.
> 
> Someone I would look at first would be: carmspack
> Every time I speak to her I've found her very knowledgeable. But know that I didn't buy a puppy from her, nor have I met her dogs. It's just from our communication together and from reading her posts, she seems like a responsible breeder with actual knowledge supporting the breeding. *But her dogs are showline dogs*, and I know when I first started my search, I was not a fan of sables. Needless to say that has changed after seeing many of the beautiful sables on the board.


Carmen breeds working lines not show lines(maybe your post is a typo, just clarifying). 
I agree, I would contact her, I believe she is near Toronto.
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

marshies said:


> But her dogs *are* showline dogs,


I think you meant *aren't*......


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Carmen breeds working lines not show lines(maybe your post is a typo, just clarifying).
> I agree, I would contact her, I believe she is near Toronto.
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Geeze my computer must be slow ( I know it's slow) ...your post wasn't there when I posted!!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

sparra said:


> I think you meant *aren't*......





onyx'girl said:


> Carmen breeds working lines not show lines(maybe your post is a typo, just clarifying).
> I agree, I would contact her, I believe she is near Toronto.
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs





sparra said:


> Geeze my computer must be slow ( I know it's slow) ...your post wasn't there when I posted!!


Geez. Yes that's what I meant to type. Feel like such a doofus.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TrentL said:


> I'm not partial to any lines is there a problem with Show Lines?


Not at all, just trying to clarify what you're looking for so maybe we can help recommend a breeder. If you wanted show lines then there'd be no point in recommending a working line breeder.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Next question:

Dince your daughters are a little hesitant around dogs, are you open to considering an adult dog who is past the wild landshark puppy phase and has been proven to be good around kids? Or are you set on a baby puppy?


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## Jonro (Apr 4, 2011)

Emoore said:


> It's not at all uncommon for good, responsible breeders to sell to good, responsible buyers without the two ever actually meeting. Phone calls are made, interviews are conducted, references are called, pedigrees reviewed, checkes mailed, and pups shipped without the buyer and seller ever meeting. It's not at all uncommon for someone to purchase a puppy from a breeder all the way across the country, or even in another country, and both people are responsible GSD citizens. So don't let the fact that the breeder was comfortable selling to you make you think that means they're not a responsible breeder of quality puppies.
> 
> Personally, I like to meet the breeder, shake his/her hand and look them in the eye, but I'm aware that's a personal preference of mine and not an industry standard.
> 
> ...


Terrific post!!! Well put!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, thanks a million Marshies - I do have primarily sables and I know at the time you had your heart set on a black and tan. I hope Robin's "A" litter pup is perfect for you and if I can be of help to you , just let me know.
Yes , they are working lines , more importantly dogs / lines chosen to work and tested by working .

OP--- the two kennels you chose have very little to say about their goals and understanding about the breed . I am a little surprised that each one has a MALE that is fast normal . They would have been better off to have secured the very best female and spent the dollars to select a top male , proven in reproduction , owned by someone else .
The first one spent more e-ink on the puppy application. If temperament is important , spell it correctly . Both made a lot about the dogs beauty and colour . The second one the dog she selected as an example of show structure was not a very good choice - my opinion. 
So they bought some import dogs . That's easy . 

However it is up to you to go and satisfy yourself , how the pups are raised, what they can offer you in support after sale - if they are interested, can they direct you to clubs , training, assist you with any problems or issues that you may encounter as the dog matures .. If you like what you hear and see and hear from references , then by all means , go ahead . 

There are good breeders who are not in the Dogs In Canada Annual - this is the last year for that publication -- lots of miscommunication and non communication about this issue coming out.
Member in good standing with the CKC doesn't mean much , you pay your dues, you issue your registration papers -- not at all an endorsement on quality or veracity of pedigree even. 

What is it that you are looking for ? 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Thanks very much for everyone chiming in, its greatly appreciated, I really like to get as many opinions as possible.

I definitely don't take the web precense of anyone for gospel, their sites are not as professional as some... but then again I'd rather they spend money on the dogs, than a high priced web developer to make a nifty website.

I didn't mind spelling mistakes on the first, really I think they were just cutting down the questions that every breeder asks over the phone when you call them.

For me distance is very important, I don't want to buy a puppy that the brreder chooses and I never see. After their temperment assessment, and the breeder makes suggestions to me, I want to see the pup. 

The second breeder when I mentioned my father used to spend alot of time visting the breeder as his last pup was growing until he took ownership. This breeder actively suggested the same behavior. The fact that she invited me and said its good to show up and see the litter every couple of weeks if possible gave me a sense of openness that I really liked.

I plan to go down this weekend and see Bluemist and use my father as a vetting since he understands and has raised many Shepherds and was successful with all of his dogs. He's very good at picking from the litter (Which is what he always did 20 years ago) he understands the breed much better than I do. But again I wn't take his opinion as gospel either which is why I came here 

So I'm looking for a pup who will grow with the family, while an older calmer dog may be easier, its not what I am looking for, and really this dog is for me, not my kids 

Working vs. Show, I have no idea if tghere is no difference negatives between the two, and either can do light to medium obedience, then I'm not worried which breed... of course maybe I'm wrong on that.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you want to get an idea of working versus show you could visit working breeders as well -or you could go and observe some GSD events


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

TrentL said:


> Working vs. Show, I have no idea if tghere is no difference negatives between the two, and either can do light to medium obedience, then I'm not worried which breed... of course maybe I'm wrong on that.


Either a low-to-medium drive and energy showline, or a lowish-drive and energy working line would work well for what you want. I think it your situation it comes down to personal preference. You might want to find a working breeder and visit their dogs as well, just to get an idea of which one you prefer.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Hi TrentL, 

I am in Kitchener, ON and would welcome you to come out to our club's training days (schutzhund).

There is a variety of lines for you to meet/assess/watch work and you can speak to the owners, breeders and enthusiasts of these dogs.

The offer stands. We train Thursday afternoons and all day Sunday in the KW area. We have club grounds in Arthur, ON in which we train on Sundays. We use another training facility during the week though. 

If your interested just send me a private message (PM).


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Hi there!

German_Shepherd_Puppies

A member here owns two dogs from her, and they are incredible. I've met the breeder and she is an amazing woman, she has wonderful dogs. Her stud, Shep, is one of the best studs I have ever seen - temperament is flawless, and he is a stunning boy. 

Happy puppy hunting!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

are u in trenton did you check out cold creek kennels? i think they are called that? seem to be well known and right next door to you.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

I'm actually in ottawa, my name is Trent  

Ottawa seems to be the dead end on Breeders.. :*(


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

TrentL said:


> I'm actually in ottawa, my name is Trent
> 
> Ottawa seems to be the dead end on Breeders.. :*(


let me rephrase that, there are no breeders really close, looks like 2 potential breeders within 2 hours from me.

As for breed from what I've seen I find the show line a bit more apeasing to my eye, I've looked at the Work line they are stunning too, just I have a preference to Show. (For instance I liked both the looks of the dogs provided in the below links)

If there is no health / negative on either line of GSD then I'll probably visit both close kennels and see.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

So I have spoken with Serveral Breeders in my Province, and I just wanted to see what you guys thought of two of breeders I spoke with. I'll hold my thoughts on it.

The First:
The breeder had 2 sets of puppies for sale at the same time and mentioned his wife was pregnant and that prior to visiting I'd have to call. He had 10+ week old puppies and 9week old puppies, and 6 males (3 from each litter) He mentioned he discounted his puppies this time due to wishing to find them homes.

We talked about what bloodlines his dogs are, and he often brought it back to the fact that his Sire's parents were German Champions. The sire he mentioned was imported.

He was not pushy on selling, when I asked to visit the kennel he had no problems with it, but seemed somewhat hesitant when I asked to see the Dam and the Sire. He explained that because his Stud dog is from Germany, and German trained I shouldn't expect a loving dog, he is an agressive dog. 

He explained he does not compete his dogs, and the primary clientele that he sells to, are families who want a Shepherd with proven bloodlines, but don't want to pay the premieme price of pups from Sire's and Dam's who have obtained championships in order to raise the price of the pups. 

He did ask what type of dog I was looking for, and what would I be doing with the dog, so that he could make appropriate choices when suggesting a pup due to how they were rated.

The Second:

The second asked me alot about where I live, family situation, knowledge of the breed, let me do alot of talking about my family and experiences and while she did explain some of the kennels comings and goings (Following german health standards etc) she talked about not having any male puppies, but she had two wonderful female pups available.

We talked alot about dogs in general, I explained that my father used to visit the kennel often when he was going to choose/purchase a pup so he could see the litter, get ot know the pups etc. She welcomed and encouraged this type of visitation to the Kennel. She mentioned that after pups are born, 2-3 weeks later I'd be welcomed to come down anytime.

She invites us down to see the kennel and talk to her bring the kids. She explained the Sire and Dam are on site of the current litter, though the Dam is being retired. She mentioned that the Sire has a good temperment.

Explained the pricing of her dogs along with deposit.

I still have 2-3 kennels to call that are around this area (I'm trying to limit to 2-3hour drive from my house, I really do want to visit the kennel on site, and places like Kitchener and west of Toronto are just TOO far for me at this point)

I can't seem to find any Working dog Kennels around this area, though one breeder I spoke to explained that Both Show Lines and Work lines can perform any task that either can do, because the breed itself is a working breed. So it was possible for a Show Line dog to train and compete in schutzhund.

Just wondering with what limited amount I typed was is your impression?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would check them both out if you can, but personally, just from what you wrote, I'd be leaning towards #2,,,but again, I would check them BOTH out and then make my decision


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would check them both out if you can, but personally, just from what you wrote, I'd be leaning towards #2,,,but again, I would check them BOTH out and then make my decision


Yeah I have found three local ones that are all close, and I'm definitely goign to check each one out. I was leaning towards the 2nd too. First one game me a strange feeling was pushing puppies on me or felt that way.

I'm looking for a pup in 2012 not right now. (Preparation is the key to success I feel)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Ottawa, why did you not say so.

There sure are good kennels out your way. Let me recommend one , and when you contact Melanie tell her HI ! from me . 

Stalworth Our Dogs

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree on #2 is concentrating , probably without knowledge , on some pretty extreme sport dogs -- you know it and you want to work with what you get , fine, you want a pet dog , I would not choose from this combination. there , said, neck on line. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## tanisgsd (Jul 6, 2005)

*Carmspack Tanis*



marshies said:


> I started a thread a while ago looking for breeders in Ontario, and did not find alot of information. You can look at the thread by clicking on my name. There are lots of breeders here, for sure, but not alot of them high profile enough to be known well in the states.
> 
> Someone I would look at first would be: carmspack
> Every time I speak to her I've found her very knowledgeable. But know that I didn't buy a puppy from her, nor have I met her dogs. It's just from our communication together and from reading her posts, she seems like a responsible breeder with actual knowledge supporting the breeding. But her dogs are showline dogs, and I know when I first started my search, I was not a fan of sables. Needless to say that has changed after seeing many of the beautiful sables on the board.


I bought our third GSD from Carmen Duggan about 20 years ago. I became disabled shortly after and Tanis stepped up and became my first service dog easily. I was in California at the time and only spoke with Carmen and exchanged letters. Tanis was shipped to me. She was perfect. One of her sons became my second service dog and he just retired last year.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend someone following her advice on suitable pups and she knows working dogs.

I highly recommend her as a source of good dogs. You can get a good dog, the right dog from a good breeder, if you are honest about your home and training ability and goals.

I'm tending toward West German show for our next but I always fall back on my love for working dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

O M G , Tanis how are you? 
Have a look at this blog Birch-Bark Hill: Kira In The News!

adult male ideal for therapy help also available --

why are you tending towards show lines?

sorry for the rush - tis the season -- thanks a million for the thumbs up

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as mentioned in another thread by same OP there is Stalworth German Shepherds in Ottawa.


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## tanisgsd (Jul 6, 2005)

*hi hi*



carmspack said:


> O M G , Tanis how are you?
> Have a look at this blog Birch-Bark Hill: Kira In The News!
> 
> adult male ideal for therapy help also available --
> ...


private email me with the male's information? 
show lines tend taller, sometimes mellower. We're feeling old. 
I private emailed you but I know you get busy, to see what you have coming up next year. Also there are some dogs... we'll talk in private whose... but they are in need of emergency placement and you may know some interested breeders. You might find some of them interesting. We can talk. 

That emergency just surfaced and I may take one from the kennel in question. If I don't end up with one from there, we'd still be looking. Though I may spend some time arranging assistance for her dogs. 

Have missed talking to you but rescue ate my time in TN. A little slower now. LOL. Or it was; this may change that. 

Good to see you.


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