# Dominance Help



## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Hi Forum! Need some advice...

I had THOUGHT we had been doing everything right with Chloe. Socialize, obedience, play, control, etc. Clearly we have missed something.

On Saturday I let her roam around our gated living room (leash dragging always) and I gave her a kong ball filled with treats to work on while I checked some emails. She came over to me after awhile and I couldn't see her ball, so I went over and checked under the baby's pack n play thinking it might have rolled under. Out of NOWHERE she puts her paws up on me, mouths my arm (pretty hard) and starts growling! I knew exactly then that she was trying to establish dominance and I am NOT allowing that AT ALL. So I leap up and tell her No! and crated her.
My husband came home and was absolutely shocked over what had happened. So I let her out again and this time I sat cross legged on the floor to see if she'd do it again. After awhile she came over and tried to mouth my arm again! So again, gave her a No! and crated her.

I swear we thought we'd done everything right to establish our position in the family. Clearly I haven't done it well enough. After reading tons of crap on the 'net I am finally realizing that all along she has brought toys to us and push them up on us. We would tell her No but ultimately we'd give in and play with her. I realize NOW that this is a form of dominate behavior so now we have started to take away all her toys except one and we tell her No and take the toy away when she does this behavior. We will keep working on this.

All in all I THOUGHT we had a fully well adjusted, socialized dog. She's GREAT with other dogs and actually takes the submissive role in their homes! I thought we had nothing to worry aobut.

Does anyone have any advice to give me to nip this in the bud ASAP? Am I doing the right things? Has anyone else had this happen to them and they were successfully able to cure it? My last GSD had a brief dominance thing and we nipped it asap but this seems a bit more aggressive than I'm used to... and I don't like it. PLEASE tell me others have hit the same behavior and fixed it. I love my dog and NEED this to work out. I can't have a dominance issue when my little kid starts running around the house 

BTW: Chloe is 9 months old now. So still a puppy, just a bit older.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

I should also add that she has been through 3 obiedence courses already (puppy, basics, and advanced basics) and we actually called a trainer to come to our house this weekend to help, in case they can see something we don't in how we interact with Chlo. 

I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I actually feel like MY trust was violated even though I know it's just because I did something to fail her to let her believe she could take that role. Ugh...


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Was she playing when she did this or do you believe it was aggression?


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Sounds like she wanted to play. When Tim is playing or even want to play...he sounds really ferocious and he loves body contact! Maybe try to read her intent.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

You got on HER level. She was trying to play with you. Not everything your dog does is an effort to display dominance. Your taking the events of what happened totally out of perspective IMO. You should have redirected to a toy, and leave it be. Throwing her into a crate for punishment does nothing.

Edit: Get down to her level again and see what happens. I guarantee you she does it again. Get a tuggy and play with her.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

It certainly didn't "feel" like a play attempt to me  I actually have bruises where she mouthed my arm. I do know that if she really wanted to hurt me with a bite, she definitely could have as she has crazy strong jaws, so I just got the feeling that she was "testing the waters" if that makes sense. It felt controlling, not playing. No other signs show dominance though (other than the toys) so I just don't know. I'm not afraid of her at 50 lbs but if she does this in another few months, I dunno...


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Then you failed to show her bite inhibition. Please remember that she cannot talk. Her mouth, paws and body language are all she has to communicate with to you.

What do you mean by 'other than the toys' ?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It sounds like play behavior, since you were down on her level. But if she's biting you hard enough to leave bruises, that's not ok. I would be tempted to execute an "alpha roll" if my dog did it to me... but you could get hurt doing that if she thinks you're playing, so unless you know how to do it, don't.

Set up the situation again, this time, have a tug toy on hand and plug it into her mouth when she comes at you. Then play tug-of-war. It sounds like this pup might be a good SchH prospect.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Ugh... I mean it could have been a play attempt. I'm so confused. She literally has no other signs of dominance. She lets us take her toys, she lets us play with her food when she's eating or take a bone away from her... I guess on the plus side, I did let her know that behavior was not acceptable. I will just have to keep an eye on it and try to redirect the behavior. Like I said, I'm not afraid of her, but that incident really spiked my andreneline... I really felt like she was challenging me now that I was on her level and I just didn't like it. But again, with other dogs, she stays low, never ever the dominant stance. 

Thanks though for the feedback. Now that I know there is a good chance that it really WAS play, I do feel more secure in my ability to address the situation.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Deathmetal said:


> Then you failed to show her bite inhibition. Please remember that she cannot talk. Her mouth, paws and body language are all she has to communicate with to you.
> 
> What do you mean by 'other than the toys' ?


 
When researching dominate behaviors, one of them was taking a toy and pressing it against you. She has ALWAYS done this and will usually get a nip on us in the process. I absolutely hate it and we have done the wrong thing by playing with her when she does it. So I've started to tell her 'no' and then I take the toy away. She doesn't like it, but she eventually submits and forgets about it which I see as a good sign.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

She put her paws on you, grabbed your arm and growled. That's a tough call. She MAY have wanted to play and she MAY have tried being dominant. As others have said, give her another chance and be prepared to play with her. If she grabs you again, YELP and say NO. Then try to continue to play. She is at THAT age where she is feeling her oats and testing boundaries. Like Freestep, I would do the alpha roll if she is trying to dominate, but I don't recommend it to someone who is not sure how to do it. I had to pin my sweet little pup a few times in her first year and we were both the better for it.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Seriously, giving advice to alpha roll a nine month old. Giving advice to alpha roll period? What exactly is that going to accomplish? Sure, ruin the dogs trust in his handler, thats SUPER advice! And then to say she'd be a good sch. prospect. Why? because the dog showed play drive? Alpha rolling a dog for wanting to play whose a sch prospect. Thats very wise! 

She was not challenging you. She thought you wanted to play. You did not show her that exhibiting 'dominance' was bad. You showed her that trying to play was bad. 

If you were playing a game would it be fun if you _always _lost? No, you'd quit trying the game because it wasn't fun. When playing tug, let her win! Of coarse not every time, but 7-8 times out of 10 I'd let her win.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> Seriously, giving advice to alpha roll a nine month old. Giving advice to alpha roll period? What exactly is that going to accomplish? Sure, ruin the dogs trust in his handler, thats SUPER advice! And then to say she'd be a good sch. prospect. Why? because the dog showed play drive? Alpha rolling a dog for wanting to play whose a sch prospect. Thats very wise!


If you re-read my post, I said NOT to do it.

I said I'd be *tempted* to, if my dog did it to me. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, it just means I'd be THAT ticked off if my dog bit me that hard.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD Momma said:


> When researching dominate behaviors, one of them was taking a toy and pressing it against you.


That's a dominant behavior? My dogs do this all the time, to me and to each other, and I never read it as dominance.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

We do play tug and I DO let her win sometimes - only sometimes. Then this weekend I read that I shouldn't let her win! There is just so much information that says one thing and then another. Overall, she seems very well adjusted except for this incident. I really do feel like she was exhibiting an act of dominance. I realize she's in that phase where she's being an a-hole as she has been resisting the 'down' command. Although all yesterday she did it without issue, but the look on her face was that she really did not WANT to... lol... so I'm really hoping this is just a phase. We do have that trainer coming this weekend to give us help in our home so I'm hoping that will also help. It's just so frustrating, I just felt like something "snapped" in her little doggie brain and that can really be scary, especially with a baby that will be crawling soon. I won't let them interact unsupervised until both are much older, but still. Makes me a tad nervous.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Freestep said:


> That's a dominant behavior? My dogs do this all the time, to me and to each other, and I never read it as dominance.


Honestly, I didn't realize it was either. But they are controlling play if you submit to it, not you. In my house, I control the play. Or at least, I should have been. In addition, she chews the toy ON us, so she always get a bite in and we say "ow" and she immediately stops. The point is that I don't want her doing this at all. Yesterday after she started learning not to do it, she would throw the toy at me instead of pressing it on me. So that's progress.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't recommend it either. But I did resort to it and nobody was harmed. Dog trusts me and has a great play drive. I also punished my kids 'appropriately' and they trust me and have great play drives at 40 and 38. My dog's fragile little psyche was totally unharmed.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

There are better corrections than alpha rolling. 

The first rule of issuing a correction to an animal is 'Is the correction I am using relevant to the crime commited' Being 'ticked' and issuing a correction are two things that do NOT go together!

In any case, we have very different views on dog training. I'd love to see you actually alpha roll a schutzhund dog...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I would alpha roll my pup all the time when he was little, and he trusts me with his life. Now if you are planning on doing sch with her then I don't think its recommended you show her how much stronger you are then her. My pup is almost 1 year old and started to nip at my gf at a few months ago. We niped it by showing him that she isn't afraid and won't back down. If you're getting "scared" or even a little emotional when this happens the dog can feel it and will capitalize on this if it is truly a dominant behavior. I don't think it is, but if you're worried about it becoming one you should not back down and let your dog sense any fear or weakness. Remember, they are very good at sensing when they can gain just the slight advantage and will capitalize on it. Even if in the moment you are angry and show her you don't like that behavior, I'm sure she can sense it right now that you are worried about it and are kind of losing trust in her.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

As Freestep suggested, the next time it happens be ready with a toy to redirect. When my guy was a pup I got a few bruises too whenever he bit me while playing. Persistence in training though is the key.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> The first rule of issuing a correction to an animal is 'Is the correction I am using relevant to the crime commited' Being 'ticked' and issuing a correction are two things that do NOT go together!


I agree!

The only time I've done anything like an "alpha roll" with my own dogs is by a verbal reprimand and hard stare... if the dog knows she's in trouble, she actually alpha rolls herself.  I've had to put the puppy on her side a couple of times when she was getting too rammy with the older dog and the older dog was getting ticked off. My older dog was appeased by seeing the pup in a submissive posture and so the situation was defused. The pup was not harmed, her feelings were not hurt, and she went right back to playing, but in a less aggressive way.



> In any case, we have very different views on dog training. I'd love to see you actually alpha roll a schutzhund dog...


Why would you roll a schutzhund dog?


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I would alpha roll my pup all the time when he was little, and he trusts me with his life. Now if you are planning on doing sch with her then I don't think its recommended you show her how much stronger you are then her. My pup is almost 1 year old and started to nip at my gf at a few months ago. We niped it by showing him that she isn't afraid and won't back down. If you're getting "scared" or even a little emotional when this happens the dog can feel it and will capitalize on this if it is truly a dominant behavior. I don't think it is, but if you're worried about it becoming one you should not back down and let your dog sense any fear or weakness. Remember, they are very good at sensing when they can gain just the slight advantage and will capitalize on it. Even if in the moment you are angry and show her you don't like that behavior, I'm sure she can sense it right now that you are worried about it and are kind of losing trust in her.


I fully agree. I know she can read energy too. Both my husband and I are confident people and I do know I am stronger than her. All yesterday I would stare into her eyes until she broke the stare. I even started to walk directly where she was to make HER get out of MY way and she did comply. So all of that really makes me feel like she has no dominance issues, but I still can't let go of the feeling that this incident really was a dominance ploy. She saw an opportunity and wanted to see how I'd react. She is just SO much more confident than my last dog that I think I have an issue seeing confidence for dominance. I'm just not used to SUCH a confident animal. She really is awesome


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

The point was that you wouldn't. Because it would not end well. But then, I don't squash my dogs drive to begin with. Rolling a puppy because the older dog wouldn't correct (within reason) itself? Gloating your puppy will roll on its own, knowing whats coming?

Redirection works best. Stop thinking your dogs are out to get you. Have fun. If they plop a slobbery ball on you, throw it. Personnally, I would either get off the computer and play with them and end the game when I wanted, or put the toy away after the first throw. But I wouldn't not play with my dog when she wanted to. You are supposed to be partners. The entire notion that has been popularized stinks.

Edit: I end the game because if you leave them wanting more, the next time they play harder. I put toys away so when they get them they play harder. Not anything about 'I'm boss. I stop play."


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'll start this off by adding the disclaimer that I don't buy into most dominance theories. I honestly think that a dog that tries to dominant humans is very rare and you would be having more issues than one arm grab.

I'll agree with the others that it was likely play and she was probably ramped up and forgot her manners for a second. Making her know that it wasn't acceptable in a calm, non-aggressive, non-physical manner is the appropriate response which it sounds like you did. I wouldn't be worried about her trying to "take over your top position" based on this incident.

I findd GSDs to be VERY mouthy with their play and it just takes time to teach them that it is not an appropriate way to play with humans. Shoving her toys at you in a request for play and engagement... not a controlling behavior. It can be pushy and rude but not a scheme for world (or household) domination.

If you want to start reinforcing your control in a truly alpha way, use NILIF. A true leader is fair, calm and consistent. Dogs catch onto that much quicker than the dominance challenging methods like an alpha roll.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

I guess a dominant dog wouldn't let me get up into her grill and give her kissies, right? Cuz she lets me do that all the time... She even lets me give her giant hugs when she's in a relaxed mood. Although on the other hand, sometimes she won't let me pet her on her head, she'll want to mouth me to prevent me from petting her on her head. That's just being a puppy too, right? Again, I read online that that's another sign of dominance.. lol


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> But then, I don't squash my dogs drive to begin with. Rolling a puppy because the older dog wouldn't correct (within reason) itself?


With the two dogs, I didn't want the situation to get out of hand, so I defused it by gently placing the pup in a submissive position. I am having a hard time finding something wrong with preventing my puppy from getting hurt. Yes, I could have waited for the older dog to correct her, but... yeah. I interviened, the issue was resolved, the pup understood, and they play beautifully now. I don't see how that is "squashing" drive?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD Momma said:


> Although on the other hand, sometimes she won't let me pet her on her head, she'll want to mouth me to prevent me from petting her on her head. That's just being a puppy too, right? Again, I read online that that's another sign of dominance.. lol


What sites are you reading? It sounds like somebody is afraid their dogs are trying to take over the world or something! 

GSD pups tend to be very mouthy; my pup still mouths me sometimes when I pet her. I don't think this is dominance, I think it's just being a playful puppy. They generally grow out of it. Your best bet is to be armed with a toy at all times, so that you can plug it in when she starts wanting to mouth you.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

An adult dog will give a puppy a pass. The reason it took so long for your adult to do something. I would have redirected to a toy, a chewie, something to keep your pup occupied and off your adult. Since you subscribe to the theory of 'big bad pack leader'...you should have done this. A true alpha would not have had to do something so drastic to keep the peace. A true alpha would have fixed the problem, not bandaid it. A puppy is bored, it tries to get a reaction for play and engagement. When your older dog would not play or engage, you should have given the puppy something else to do.
_I am having a hard time finding something wrong with preventing my puppy from getting hurt. _You don't trust your older dog. That statement says it all.

Squashing drive. Yes, you squashed the drive of a puppy who wanted to engage by telling it that it was a BAD LITTLE LANDSHARK. But I digress. They would have played beautifully anyways. It sounds like your elder has a head on its shoulders and all would have been fine had you redirected. Like I said a few posts ago, we have different thoughts.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

GSD Momma said:


> I guess a dominant dog wouldn't let me get up into her grill and give her kissies, right? Cuz she lets me do that all the time... She even lets me give her giant hugs when she's in a relaxed mood. Although on the other hand, sometimes she won't let me pet her on her head, she'll want to mouth me to prevent me from petting her on her head. That's just being a puppy too, right? Again, I read online that that's another sign of dominance.. lol


A lot of dogs don't like being petted on the head. A hand moving over the top of their head is a threatening gesture unless she is very confident or trusts you completely. If she mouths you to prevent you from petting her she is giving a pretty clear message that she doesn't want that. Try instead to move your hand in low and scratch her chest or rub her chin. This will cause you to bend down and present a less threatening position. As Freestep says, it could be that she is just trying to play too. My dog is still mouthy at 2 but she has excellent bite inhibition. She just uses her mouth as a hand and never leaves marks or causes pain.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Step away from the dominance theory.... 

If your dog was trying to dominant you, you'd know it! They'd be controlling what you do and not just by shoving a toy at you.

There are people who get carried away with this stuff such as a dog thinks it's equal to you if you let them on furniture, your dog sitting on your feet is controlling you, never let the dog stand over you... and many other myths you can find. My dogs do all of this and you can bet your butt that they know who the boss is without me pulling any psychological dominance exerting tricks on them.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

GSD Momma said:


> I guess a dominant dog wouldn't let me get up into her grill and give her kissies, right? Cuz she lets me do that all the time... She even lets me give her giant hugs when she's in a relaxed mood. Although on the other hand, sometimes she won't let me pet her on her head, she'll want to mouth me to prevent me from petting her on her head. That's just being a puppy too, right? Again, I read online that that's another sign of dominance.. lol


If my dog is in "play mode" he does the same thing if I try and pet his head. I tell him to "settle" and he stops immediately and allows me to pet him on his head. What's happening with your pup just sounds like play to me. You should start working on a "relax" or "settle" command so that you can literally have your dog go from play to calm in a couple of seconds.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I fully agree with GSD Raven - there is waaaaayyyyyy too much stupid dominance stuff on the internet, written by people who wouldn't know a dominant dog if it fell on their head. A nice, friendly, easy-going, obedient puppy doesn't just one day wake up and decide overnight that it will become dominant. 

Some dogs at this age start needing more excercise and mental stimulation. As others have said, this sound to me like a pup with frustrated drives needing more outlets. Up his excercise and mental stimulation. Play more tug with him and let him win! Tug is an excellent way to redirect his drives from your arm to a toy. 

I don't believe the OP said she wanted to do Schutzhund with him, but someone else mentioned that the pup would make a good Schutzhund candidate - indeed, some of this pushy behaviour is exactly what we appreciate and foster in SchH puppies. Doesn't mean that the dogs do not defer to us as alpha, instead it allows the pup to just be unhibited and confident.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Thanks for mentioning the tug theory, I've heard that with more dominant or aggressive dogs you never let them win so that they know you're stronger, but with a sch dog you let them win so that they develop that drive. Its really all based on what you want out of your dog. I didn't intentionally try to kill any drives by alpha rolling (and failed at killing any drives that could've been killed) but that was because my dog is so resiliant, I also just didn't want him to do some of the things he was doing since he is just going to be mainly a family pet. The things I did would hamper him (in theory) for Sch training, but I'm not looking into doing that. I did notice that Sch candidate puppies are allowed to get away with much more than the regular family pet, but thats because the owners know the end result of an extremely obedient dog, for the rest of us this isn't always so sure so we nip many of those behaviors asap.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Step away from the dominance theory....
> 
> If your dog was trying to dominant you, you'd know it! They'd be controlling what you do and not just by shoving a toy at you.
> 
> There are people who get carried away with this stuff such as a dog thinks it's equal to you if you let them on furniture, your dog sitting on your feet is controlling you, never let the dog stand over you... and many other myths you can find. My dogs do all of this and you can bet your butt that they know who the boss is without me pulling any psychological dominance exerting tricks on them.


LOL! Yeah I do tend to agree with this. Although I have never allowed my dog on furniture and never ever in my bed. So again, I can't imagine it was dominance but my God, it sure FELT like it was. Yet she has no other signs of it. So I'm hoping it was just crazy puppy play. I am wondering if she was frustrated that she couldn't get the treats out of her ball and when I bent down she felt it was "game on" because she was so frustrated? When I did let her back out and found her ball, there were still treats really stuck inside. Who knows...


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

fuzzybunny said:


> If my dog is in "play mode" he does the same thing if I try and pet his head. I tell him to "settle" and he stops immediately and allows me to pet him on his head. What's happening with your pup just sounds like play to me. You should start working on a "relax" or "settle" command so that you can literally have your dog go from play to calm in a couple of seconds.


EXCELLENT suggestion. We have no worked on those commands, we do say 'relax' but I don't think she knows what it means. How do you show them what relax is or do you redirect and praise and then finally get it?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Deathmetal said:


> Since you subscribe to the theory of 'big bad pack leader'...you should have done this. A true alpha would not have had to do something so drastic to keep the peace. A true alpha would have fixed the problem, not bandaid it. A puppy is bored, it tries to get a reaction for play and engagement. When your older dog would not play or engage, you should have given the puppy something else to do.
> _I am having a hard time finding something wrong with preventing my puppy from getting hurt. _You don't trust your older dog. That statement says it all.


Good lord.

It's not that I don't trust my older dog, I just wanted to give her a break.

This is getting ridiculous. You don't know me and have no idea how I raise and train my dogs. No, I'm not a "big bad pack leader", but I do try to keep everyone safe and happy. If all it takes to "squash" a puppy's drive is to gently defuse when it's being overly bratty, that puppy was probably pretty fragile to begin with. 

My dogs are not SchH dogs, so I am not overly concerned with drive-building, nor am I afraid they are so fragile that any little misstep will ruin them. They are my companions, and are treated with understanding, kindness, and fairness, but that doesn't mean I'm afraid to interviene in unwanted behavior. My dogs trust and respect me, because I've given them boundaries. That is the way it works for me and my dogs. If what you're doing with your dogs works, keep doing it.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

You asked me questions and got answers, I'm not quite postive why you would be angry about that.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> I fully agree with GSD Raven - there is waaaaayyyyyy too much stupid dominance stuff on the internet, written by people who wouldn't know a dominant dog if it fell on their head. A nice, friendly, easy-going, obedient puppy doesn't just one day wake up and decide overnight that it will become dominant.
> 
> Some dogs at this age start needing more excercise and mental stimulation. As others have said, this sound to me like a pup with frustrated drives needing more outlets. Up his excercise and mental stimulation. Play more tug with him and let him win! Tug is an excellent way to redirect his drives from your arm to a toy.
> 
> I don't believe the OP said she wanted to do Schutzhund with him, but someone else mentioned that the pup would make a good Schutzhund candidate - indeed, some of this pushy behaviour is exactly what we appreciate and foster in SchH puppies. Doesn't mean that the dogs do not defer to us as alpha, instead it allows the pup to just be unhibited and confident.


Our breeder really wants us to enter her into Schutzhund, they do free trainings every Saturday to get a dog ready for it, they even attend the competitions to offer support, etc. But I just want a happy family pet so we haven't been too keen on the idea. She has been through a few of their burlap bite courses. I was wondering if that was why she is so mouthy but it's probably just because she's still a pup. I just want to break the mouthing with having a child in the house so it's a constant effort. I want the perfect well-balanced and fully tolerant dog by the age of 2, is that too much to ask? LOL


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> BTW: Chloe is 9 months old now. So still a puppy, just a bit older.


That's a tough age.
Not a puppy but an adolecent. The beginning of teenager pushing the boundaries and challenging everybody and everything.

I believe there is dominance in dogs. (note: I typed "dogs" not this particular dog) Just watch a pack of dogs for eight hours, the same pack and you will see heirarchies set up and established. Interesting really.

The problem with using the term "dominance" is people confuse the term with aggression. Dominance is not aggression; nor is it always rolling or pinning or knocking your dog to the ground. Dominance is quiet calm assertive (not aggressive) manners. 
German Shepherds and other herding breeds were created to work, manage and control their enviroments. The very nature of why they were created makes them a more dominant dog than say a companion dog breed.
It's the nature of the beast.
I've noticed that my girl is very vocal and bossy. I've had more issues with her pushing the boundaries that I have set down than she does with my other half who is male. I believe (and I could be wrong) that there was a female to female issue there. So as far as blocking her path through doorways, collar guiding when I have to and NILF/structure; I've had to toe the line so to speak. Where as Mr. Dog Whisperer who I live with sits on the couch with her and says things like "No kitties" instead of "Leave it"


The one thing that I wouldn't have done is given a correction and then put in the crate. The crate is not a place of correction. I would use a space training like a mat on the floor and use "BED...STAY"


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD Momma said:


> EXCELLENT suggestion. We have no worked on those commands, we do say 'relax' but I don't think she knows what it means. How do you show them what relax is or do you redirect and praise and then finally get it?


The puppy class I went to teaches "chill".

You use a little food treat as a lure, and with the pup in the down position, you sort of guide the pup's nose toward his shoulder so that he rolls onto his side. It can take a while to get the pup to lie on his side, so be patient. When he does go to his side, give him treats, pet him slowly, and say "chill" (or "relax" or whatever). Tummy rubs optional.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

freestep said:


> good lord.
> 
> It's not that i don't trust my older dog, i just wanted to give her a break.
> 
> ...


amen


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Freestep, I just want to say that I appreciate your advice and I do believe that certain dogs require certain steps to control behavior, and that can include alpha-rolling. Some dogs it won't work on, but some it does. I think a good owner knows what will work and what won't, so I see nothing wrong with what you did (in my opinion).


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Freestep said:


> The puppy class I went to teaches "chill".
> 
> You use a little food treat as a lure, and with the pup in the down position, you sort of guide the pup's nose toward his shoulder so that he rolls onto his side. It can take a while to get the pup to lie on his side, so be patient. When he does go to his side, give him treats, pet him slowly, and say "chill" (or "relax" or whatever). Tummy rubs optional.


Thanks!! I will definitely teach her "chill". I kinda like that


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've got a better word..."Unclench" as in "Unclench your buns" Works great and is really funny when he gets really wound up about anything, like barking at dogs passing by as he's looking out the second story window.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I've got a better word..."Unclench" as in "Unclench your buns" Works great and is really funny when he gets really wound up about anything, like barking at dogs passing by as he's looking out the second story window.


LOL! Nice! I like that one too! I'm thinking "ease up" might be a good one too... "Chloe, EASE UP!" 

Where in WI are you? I am in the Milw/Wauk area. We got our dog from Vanderstradt (I think that's how you spell it).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I sent you a PM about location and other stuff.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD Momma said:


> Freestep, I just want to say that I appreciate your advice and I do believe that certain dogs require certain steps to control behavior, and that can include alpha-rolling. Some dogs it won't work on, but some it does. I think a good owner knows what will work and what won't, so I see nothing wrong with what you did (in my opinion).


Thanks.

The idea that you should never correct your dog, but rather use redirection to stop unwanted behavior, is a good one if your goal is to compete in Schutzhund. The idea is that you WANT your pup to be confident, fearless, uninhibited, and ready to take on the world. 

While a SchH enthusiast might like to see a pup clamp onto their arm, if your goal is to have a well-behaved family companion that lives in the house with you, it's not as appealing.  If you have a well-bred dog with good, hard nerve, confidence, and natural resiliency, a correction for unwanted behavior is not going to ruin the dog IMO. 9 months is a tough age, and I think you should use what works to get the behavior you want. 

While mouthing is tolerable, personally, I don't think it's okay for a dog to *bite* their owner hard enough to leave a bruise. Talk to your trainer about it and see what they think, but I don't think your puppy is necessarily being dominant, I think she's just playful and a little bratty.  SchH people don't mind if their dogs are a little bratty, but a lot of SchH people leave their dogs kenneled when they aren't working with them, as opposed to living in the house with you. Personally, I want a dog I can live with, to be my companion, that I can take anywhere and do anything with. This means discouraging some "bratty" behaviors, which some say could squash drive. But again, my position is that if you have the right dog with the right temperament, they can learn to be well-behaved in society, and still have full use of their drives when it comes to work or sport. It's all about your relationship with the dog, and there's no one "right" way, IMO.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep - there are so many things wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. Where are all our SchH people whose dogs live in their homes, do some therapy work, rally, agility? You know...those dogs that are all around companions with good behavior that don't need to be alpha rolled? Chris? Carolina? Art? Lies? Jane? Anyone out there?



Freestep said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The idea that you should never correct your dog, but rather use redirection to stop unwanted behavior, is a good one if your goal is to compete in Schutzhund. The idea is that you WANT your pup to be confident, fearless, uninhibited, and ready to take on the world.
> 
> ...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Freestep - there are so many things wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. Where are all our SchH people whose dogs live in their homes, do some therapy work, rally, agility? You know...those dogs that are all around companions with good behavior that don't need to be alpha rolled? Chris? Carolina? Art? Lies? Jane? Anyone out there?


Jeez would you guys forget about the alpha rolling thing?  I said NOT to do it, it's dangerous.

Of course a lot of sport dogs live in the house with their people! Sorry I didn't specify that. Maybe more do than don't, I'm not sure. I also know a lot of people who keep their dogs kenneled when they aren't working with them; some believe that it downs a dog's drive if they live in the house with the family. It's not my personal preference, but it works for some.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I didn't finish reading the thread, but honestly if she bites you again, I would allow it. Clearly, the fact that she left bruises on your arm means she has no bite inhibition, which is VERY BAD. In the future, if she ever feels the need to bite, she will do damage. A dog that has been taught to inhibit its bites, will not break the skin if they are pushed into a situation where they feel biting is necessary.
I let my pups mouth me until their mouth is squishy soft; no pressure whatsoever. If they bite too hard yelp and say "ouch!" and then walk away from/ignore them. As they start getting older, I eliminate the mouthing completely.
Another way to teach the inhibition is by hand feeding. Hold their food tightly in your hand and let them try to get at it. Same concept. Ouch if they bite too hard and let them have it if they are being gentle with their teeth. Eventually you want to give them the food when they lick your hands or stop biting all together and look at you.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Her dog is 9 months old, way past the age of teaching bite inhibition that way. A little bite isn't so little anymore like when the pup is 4 months old. So I do not suggest letting her dog bite her anymore at this point.

And I saw where freestep was going with the alpha roll thing, its good for some and bad for others. Most sch people won't do it because it will inhibit some of those drives, but for a person that isn't as exprienced with GSD or dog training its a good tool especially if they just want to have a well mannered pet. There are of course plenty of people that live with their Sch dogs and there isn't a reason to get all riled up about the fact that there are some that don't live with theirs and just have them kennelled. There was a poster a few months ago on this site that said that he didn't let his dog out of its kennel unless they were training or interacting due to Sch and this was with a 10 week old puppy, so clearly there are two extremes to this topic.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

You can still teach bite inhibition to a 9 month old through the use of food. I still keep my older dogs inhibition up through hand feeding and she's 2. No excuses for not teaching bite inhibition; it can be highly dangerous in the future.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Tbarrios333 said:


> I didn't finish reading the thread, but honestly if she bites you again, I would allow it. Clearly, the fact that she left bruises on your arm means she has no bite inhibition, which is VERY BAD. In the future, if she ever feels the need to bite, she will do damage. A dog that has been taught to inhibit its bites, will not break the skin if they are pushed into a situation where they feel biting is necessary.
> I let my pups mouth me until their mouth is squishy soft; no pressure whatsoever. If they bite too hard yelp and say "ouch!" and then walk away from/ignore them. As they start getting older, I eliminate the mouthing completely.
> Another way to teach the inhibition is by hand feeding. Hold their food tightly in your hand and let them try to get at it. Same concept. Ouch if they bite too hard and let them have it if they are being gentle with their teeth. Eventually you want to give them the food when they lick your hands or stop biting all together and look at you.


Honestly her mouthing has not been an issue up to this point. That's why I'm saying, this time it was different. And I did not like it one bit. She has been taught bite inhibition from day 1 and I had believed she knew it. This was the first time she has mouthed me hard enough to bruise me and I was having NONE of it. I still don't call it a "bite" because she didn't break the skin and in all aspects, it felt like mouthing but harder. I don't know if my sleeve confused her or what. That's why I posted about it. And when I did say "Ow" she backed off immediately, but the jumping and growling seemed to get ramped up even as I stood up. Trust me when I say that she been taught bite inhibition which is why this incident has had me a bit worried. I don't believe bite inhibition is our issue here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Then I apologize, Freestep, I must have confused your post with another while I was skimming down thru there regarding the alpha roll. But to say that SchH dogs are more unruly and bratty is crazy. Those dogs have way BETTER obedience than an average pet. They have to.

Martemchik - Nobody was riled up over SchH dogs being kenneled. Since I didn't specify please don't assume and put words in my mouth. I was objecting to the overall impression of SchH dogs that Freestep was portraying.

IMO, that dog was playing. OP was on the floor at the dog's level. I don't know why anyone would get a German Shepherd and then work on "squashing" their drive. Work with the drive to your advantage. Use that drive to train them instead of squashing the drive and making them follow a command because they 'have' too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSD Momma said:


> Honestly her mouthing has not been an issue up to this point. That's why I'm saying, this time it was different. And I did not like it one bit. She has been taught bite inhibition from day 1 and I had believed she knew it. This was the first time she has mouthed me hard enough to bruise me and I was having NONE of it. I still don't call it a "bite" because she didn't break the skin and in all aspects, it felt like mouthing but harder. I don't know if my sleeve confused her or what. That's why I posted about it. And when I did say "Ow" she backed off immediately, but the jumping and growling seemed to get ramped up even as I stood up. Trust me when I say that she been taught bite inhibition which is why this incident has had me a bit worried. I don't believe bite inhibition is our issue here.


Get a good trainer. You aren't understanding her behavior and she's not understanding what you want from her.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Tbarrios333 said:


> You can still teach bite inhibition to a 9 month old through the use of food. I still keep my older dogs inhibition up through hand feeding and she's 2. No excuses for not teaching bite inhibition; it can be highly dangerous in the future.


 
From 7 weeks old til now she has been constantly reinforced bite inhibition with redirection of toys and verbal commands. She KNOWS Ow and listens to it. She also knows 'no bite' and it stops it. For me, mouthing is NOT acceptable at all so she has been constantly reinforced to NOT do this behavior. I know some people allow a little mouthing, but I do not. Again, this is why I posted this on here.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Get a good trainer. You aren't understanding her behavior and she's not understanding what you want from her.


How am I not understanding her behavior if she behaves perfectly 99% of the time but reacted out of blue this one time? I guess that flat statement somewhat offends me. I understand her behavior, but this latest episode has me alarmed. It just sounds a bit condescending to me.

Anyway, I do agree there is something I am missing here and like I said in a previous post, we have contacted our trainer yesterday and scheduled an on-site visit this weekend.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

GSD Momma said:


> From 7 weeks old til now she has been constantly reinforced bite inhibition with redirection of toys and verbal commands. She KNOWS Ow and listens to it. She also knows 'no bite' and it stops it. For me, mouthing is NOT acceptable at all so she has been constantly reinforced to NOT do this behavior. I know some people allow a little mouthing, but I do not. Again, this is why I posted this on here.


I think you're misunderstanding what bite inhibition is with teaching her not to mouth. Bite inhibition is when you teach a dog to have a soft mouth and not put any pressure on your skin when they bite.
Most dogs understand what ow means; they get that they hurt us. However, the only way to reinforce the fact that they need to have a soft mouth on human skin is by teaching bite inhibition, which is taught BEFORE you teach them that they can't bite.

You're also confusing what I'm saying. I DON'T allow biting and I don't really know anyone that does. The point is you teach them to have a soft mouth before you eliminate the biting. Alas, you are past this stage, so the only thing you could do is teach the inhibition with food. If you don't, on the random chance she decides to be a playful puppy again and mouths you, she will again do damage.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

martemchik said:


> And I saw where freestep was going with the alpha roll thing, its good for some and bad for others. Most sch people won't do it because it will inhibit some of those drives, but for *a person that isn't as exprienced with GSD or dog training* its a good tool especially if they just want to have a well mannered pet.


IMHO that is the WORST type of person to try using an Alpha Roll on a dog!!

If you do not know what you are doing you can either get seriously hurt or make matters worse with your dog!!

Remember people - WE ARE NOT DOGS. The Alpha Roll "method" came about after watching canines interact with each other and seeing how the CANINE pack leader handled insubordination. The Alpha in the pack doesn't just walk up to another dog and put them to the ground. There is a TON of things that are communicated between the two dogs prior to it getting that far - and those are things we as humans CANNOT immitate.

There's a low, grumbling growl of warning. There's the raised tail - like a flag. There's the raised hair. There's the way they use their eyes, their lips, their entire bodies ... things we humans CANNOT do.


So, to the OP. What your girl displayed is NOT dominance. It most likely was a bratty young dog feeling their oats and wanting to play rough when you got down to their level.

Next time it happens grab a tug toy and ENGAGE the dog in play.

Oh, and LET THEM WIN ... ALOT!!! 

As long as the dog knows to stop when YOU say so - you can let them win all the time and it won't cause problems.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Tbarrios333 said:


> I think you're misunderstanding what bite inhibition is with teaching her not to mouth. Bite inhibition is when you teach a dog to have a soft mouth and not put any pressure on your skin when they bite.
> Most dogs understand what ow means; they get that they hurt us. However, the only way to reinforce the fact that they need to have a soft mouth on human skin is by teaching bite inhibition, which is taught BEFORE you teach them that they can't bite.
> 
> You're also confusing what I'm saying. I DON'T allow biting and I don't really know anyone that does. The point is you teach them to have a soft mouth before you eliminate the biting. Alas, you are past this stage, so the only thing you could do is teach the inhibition with food. If you don't, on the random chance she decides to be a playful puppy again and mouths you, she will again do damage.


Perhaps I did not explain myself clear enough. We tought her bite inhibition when she was young and would bite with those awful puppy teeth. Then we went into the mouthing stage which was tolerated. Now it's not tolerated, soft mouth etc. NOW and ever since she got her adult teeth, I don't want a mouth on me at all. THAT has been what we have been teaching recently. I do understand the difference, so I apologize if I had not explained that clearly.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> But to say that SchH dogs are more unruly and bratty is crazy. Those dogs have way BETTER obedience than an average pet. They have to.


Of course SchH dogs are more highly obedience trained than the average dog--that's not what I meant by "bratty" (and I never said "unruly"). What I meant was that some SchH people are more likely to appreciate certain behaviors during the puppy stage--mouthing, jumping up on people, etc--that the average person would see as "bratty". 

When SchH people see these behaviors, they know they can channel them into the appropritate venue, so the behavior is not seen as "bad", but simply as an expression of drive. Drive is to be developed and encouraged in the SchH dog, so while the average person looks at a mouthy, jumpy, active pup and thinks "what a brat", the SchH person thinks "Look at that drive!"  

It doesn't mean the SchH dog doesn't learn good manners. A little "brattiness" during the puppy stage is to be expected; it's simply a matter of perspective on the behavior, and being able to channel it instead of diminish it.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> IMHO that is the WORST type of person to try using an Alpha Roll on a dog!!
> 
> If you do not know what you are doing you can either get seriously hurt or make matters worse with your dog!!
> 
> ...


So if it wasn't dominance, should I continue to recreate the situation and redirect to appropriate play? I think we are still at the point that if she's bored and I'm sitting on the floor, she would do it again and I want to eliminate the desire to do so.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Nancy and I think Debbie's(?) post..

People overanalyze behaviors and throw out the "alpha" & "dominance" word/theory way to much..I also think people take alot of what they 'read' as gospel, when all situations and dogs are soooo different.

These dogs can be MOUTHY, they can be vocal, they play rough, they grab ya, they bite ya..

I guess I don't get the point of staring your dog down until they look away? And I don't get the point of not letting your dog 'win' at tugging?

What they need besides training is consistency, fairness, good manners, and respect on both ends. They 'think' differently than us, they communicate differently, they can be perfect one day, and a brat the next. 

It sounds like this dog was getting amped up, and as one said, forgot his/her manners..


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

GSD Momma said:


> So if it wasn't dominance, should I continue to recreate the situation and redirect to appropriate play? I think we are still at the point that if she's bored and I'm sitting on the floor, she would do it again and I want to eliminate the desire to do so.


Yes. If she is bored and you sit on the floor she is going to think it's playtime. Be prepared - have a tug toy or ball ready! Maybe even take her outside first, to let off some steam and work off some energy. THEN sit on the floor and teach her what you expect from her when you are down there.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Nancy and I think Debbie's(?) post..
> 
> People overanalyze behaviors and throw out the "alpha" & "dominance" word/theory way to much..I also think people take alot of what they 'read' as gospel, when all situations and dogs are soooo different.
> 
> ...


Could it have been out of frustration with not being able to get all the treats out of the ball? That's starting to make a little sense to me. I just am trying to find some "sense" I guess.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> And I saw where freestep was going with the alpha roll thing, its good for some and bad for others. Most sch people won't do it because it will inhibit some of those drives, but for a person that isn't as exprienced with GSD or dog training its a good tool especially if they just want to have a well mannered pet.


That's NOT where I was going with it! I don't think inexperienced people should be rolling their dogs! 

For the record--and again I will say what I said in my original post, just to be clear--if my puppy bit me hard enough to leave a bruise, it would be a *tempting* reaction to roll the pup, if I were ticked off enough not to be thinking straight! That doesn't mean it's the *right* thing to do (and fortunately I haven't been in that situation), it just means that getting bitten that hard can provoke a knee-jerk reaction if you aren't careful, so be mindful and plan out what you're going to do if it happens again. Which is exactly what the OP is doing, good on her. 

I think for the average pet owner, a better method was what they taught in my puppy class (which I mentioned before): the "chill". With food as a lure, teaching the puppy to roll onto his side and just relax for a moment with calm praise and petting. Pretty soon "chill" means "slow down, relax, take a break." This is done in a purely positive way, though I can still see how some might interpret it as a way to diminish drive. For the average pet owner that might not be a bad thing.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, it could also be re-directed frustration. The main point is that it was not dominance (really does not fit the picture), so you can relax and not get so upset about it. Stay calm, and redirect. Do it enough times, and he will learn that if he: 
A) Wants to play even when all amped up, to grab a toy and bring it to you, and
B) If frustrated, to redirect to a toy.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

GSD Momma said:


> Could it have been out of frustration with not being able to get all the treats out of the ball? That's starting to make a little sense to me. I just am trying to find some "sense" I guess.


The problem is that you may NEVER make sense of it.

There are only 4 things that motivate dogs - I call them the Four F's:

*Food ... Fear ... Fight ..... Sex* ​*Food* - aka Prey Drive, Play Drive, etc.

Way back in their genetic history, domesicated dogs still had to hunt to survive. They learned that if it ran from them mostly likely it was tasty so they had to chase and catch it. That's Prey Drive.

*Fear*

Really basic - it scares them so they either run away or try to scare IT away. Fear Aggression is a classic expression of fear. My girl Sasha is FA. If you approach her she will put her hair up and bark at you like she's going to tear you apart. She logic is that if she acts BIG and SCARY you will not keep coming towards her. If you do keep advancing towards her she'll hold her ground ... until you get within about 5 feet of her then she tries to run away. A dog that is TRULY aggressive will not back down if you keep approaching.

*Fight -* Play Drive, Pack Drive, Dominance, etc.

This manifests itself in many different ways and goes hand-in-hand with most of the other Four F's. Dog play-fight. They rough house and challange each other (and sometimes other species). They do this for fun and to work out who ranks where within their pack structure.

If you corner a Fearful dog they might just turn to FIGHT (since they may feel they are fighting for their life).

Dogs will fight with each other when it comes to breeding rights or over resources (like food, toys or even their humans).

*Sex* (the last F)

Survival of the species is a very strong motivator in animals. Nature gave the females tools to use to attract a mate for breeding (and thus ensuring the continuation of the species).

Females in heat give off odors that males can smell from a LOOOOONG way off. They also become much more receptive to attention from the males. My Chinese Crested bitch barely tolerates my GSD male ... until she starts her season. Then she's all flirty and teasing with him and all but holds up a sign saying "I WANT IT!!!". 

Some bitches will attack and kill other intact bitches if they can as it cuts down on the competition for males. Same thing is true with males.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I think for the average pet owner, a better method was what they taught in my puppy class (which I mentioned before): the "chill". With food as a lure, teaching the puppy to roll onto his side and just relax for a moment with calm praise and petting. Pretty soon "chill" means "slow down, relax, take a break." This is done in a purely positive way, though I can still see how some might interpret it as a way to diminish drive. For the average pet owner that might not be a bad thing.


I don't think that diminishes drive at all. I think that is just simply teaching a behavior in a positive way. You can still tap into the natural drive to teach all sorts of commands like Sit, Heel, Down, etc.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Next time it happens grab a tug toy and ENGAGE the dog in play.
> 
> Oh, and LET THEM WIN ... ALOT!!!
> 
> As long as the dog knows to stop when YOU say so - you can let them win all the time and it won't cause problems.


I'm glad you said this! I always let my dogs win at tug, every single time. And when I tell them to "Drop it" they do it instantly, and then I instantly give the tug right back and we play some more. Then I let them "win" and they prance off with the tugs, quite pleased and proud of themselves.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

She was probably just tasting you. 

Sleep with one eye open...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jean LMBO


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

keep training and socializing. the
dominance theory is overrated. i can
kiss my dog on the face and so can a stranger.
i can step over my dog and so can a stranger.
if my dog is laying in my way i like the fact that
i can step over him. if i need my dog to move i can say
"watch out Loki", "move Loki", "up", "out of the way",
"get up", etc. i think he knows from the situation
what i want him to do. when my dog was a pup
he would bring a toy and shake it in front of you
or drop it near your feet, make noise (bark, whine).
all it meant was he was ready to play. most of the times
i played with him. 

i think training takes care of what's preceived as dominance.
if i walk towards my dog and he doesn't move i can gice him
a command and he moves. if my dog jumps on the bed
with us and we don't want him there a verbal command
or hand signal moves him. lets say a dog is being dominant.
when you give them a command and they do what you're asking.
i don't see where it matters that they were being dominant
because they did what you asked.

like anything else, training and socializing cures
most things.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

There is a problem with the way many people responded to this query and to many queries others posted. I bet most people answereing questions here grew up with dogs, and probably horses and other animals. Key word being...**grew up**.

Myself included. We have an almost innate sense reading animal body language. I grew up raising big cats. We took them on TV, exhibited them at social events, raised animals for the zoo and did wildlife rehab. I can pretty much read about any animal! I still dont know every thing, obviously, but can always tell if I am about to get bit/trampled or not! LOL!!

The problem I have is many questions come up on this forum because these dog owners cannot read what is going on with their dog. That is why they become afraid of their dogs. That is why the dog ends screwed up and in rescue or worse. And even when people try, they just sometimes dont get it and really need an easier dog to manage. Maybe a drivey GSD is just not for them.

I think as a group/forum we all need to be more empathetic to these folks trying to understand thier dogs. But, as soon as a dog owner is afraid of their puppy/dog..we all need to encourage that owner to get to a good trainer asap. Or, they need to rehome their dog. We cannot teach someone how to read dog body language over the internet,,we can try, but they really need professional help.

To the original poster, all dogs play and bark and go silly if you sit/lay down. Thats a great thing to remember if your puppy starts to take off away from you outside,,just lay down and laugh! I feel like your puppy just needs more play time, more excercise, more training and you to enjoy your puppy and not to feel like you are living with a loaded gun. Its just a dog..have fun!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GSD Momma said:


> Hi Forum! Need some advice...
> 
> I had THOUGHT we had been doing everything right with Chloe. Socialize, obedience, play, control, etc. Clearly we have missed something.
> 
> ...


 
While there are "dominant" dogs (who will come up the leash at the handler for a correction or if you try to get them to do something thay don't want to do) regardless of what a few people think (not very many so a lot of folks have never met one), a 9mo puppy is just acting up - rough play is legendary among GSD's. Our guy (now 3.5yo) would also do that at even an older age, and if you got physical with him - he would immediately go into excitement overdrive and sometimes even trigger the "puppy zoomies".

I wouldn't worry about him too much, sounds like a normal rough playing GSD big puppy - just train him and/or redirect him from your arm to a nice toy or a treat when he stops and behaves himself. Or give him a big punishment - stop playing and just get up and walk away (sort of like what another dog will do if he plays too rough). Sounds like our guy where he didin't get enough schooling from Mom and/or littermates.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Good_Karma said:


> I'm glad you said this! I always let my dogs win at tug, every single time. And when I tell them to "Drop it" they do it instantly, and then I instantly give the tug right back and we play some more. Then I let them "win" and they prance off with the tugs, quite pleased and proud of themselves.


Perfect!! :thumbup:


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