# Those with some time in ....



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Can any one with some history in the breed speak to any of the dogs in this pedigree?

6 gen. pedigree for CH (US & CAN) Mari-Fiori's Bold Ruler Judeen - German shepherd dog


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## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

*Chimo was an American select Champion whose breeder was very conscientious about soundness. Chimo was OFA'd hips & elbows as well as having practically every other health certification available..*

Winning Way's Chimo
SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog

Comments on Chimo by the breeder ofChimo's dam are here
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...merican-show-lines-breeders-bloodlines-7.html

Caralon was the kennel name of Helen "Scootie" Sherlock, who was instrumental in creating the OFA. Mari-Fiori and Caralon produced a number of high-quality blacks.
The dam of BoldRuler is here
Mari-Fiori's Ruffan of Judeen


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

PM me with any questions. I'm not sure that most of what I know should be posted here.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> PM me with any questions. I'm not sure that most of what I know should be posted here.


Post it anyway, for the terminally curious.  As long as you simply state the facts, it's not libelous. I am not sure if stating facts would be seen as "bashing" by the moderators.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> Can any one with some history in the breed speak to any of the dogs in this pedigree?
> 
> 6 gen. pedigree for CH (US & CAN) Mari-Fiori's Bold Ruler Judeen - German shepherd dog


 
Some VERY well know SL dogs a few gens back! Very pillars of the breed. 

Brought back a LOT of memories to see some of those names!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Samba said:


> Can any one with some history in the breed speak to any of the dogs in this pedigree?
> 
> 6 gen. pedigree for CH (US & CAN) Mari-Fiori's Bold Ruler Judeen - German shepherd dog


Are the three Carmspack dogs Carmens? (or from her kennel?)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Probably, as the sire of the dog is from Canada and Carmen used to breed and show Am/Can show lines.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I see a lot of Sundance in there. I like his son Black Jack.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> I see a lot of Sundance in there. I like his son Black Jack.


It seems like Sundance was a busy guy.  

Is this the Black Jack you're talking about? 
AM/CAN SEL Waltraut's That's Black Jack CD - German Shepherd Dog


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I like Sundance Kid -- he was smart and long lived. My dogs have Sundance Kid heavily in their pedigrees.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Andaka said:


> I like Sundance Kid -- he was smart and long lived. My dogs have Sundance Kid heavily in their pedigrees.


I don't know much about him except what I've read online, but what I've read sounds good.  He's in Harley's pedigree on his dams side.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would ask Carmen, there are a lot of well-known dogs back there and a bit of German show I think. I like Zinfendel, Don Quixote, Rosemary, and some others. Lance is in there but I would be shocked if he was not. I give it two extra points for NOT having Kinsmet's Sight for Sore Eyes (Dallas). 

Several ROM bitches and dogs. It is an interesting mix.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> I I give it two extra points for NOT having Kinsmet's Sight for Sore Eyes (Dallas).


Him?
Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes

Why are you happy not to see him in the pedigree?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

twice today , this thread and another - I have written long and detailed posts , the whys and wherefores . I have taken about an hour , interrupted by pups with needs , phone calls etc. When I go to submit I am told I am no longer logged in , I need to refresh and resend --- then nothing happens just blank.
All my codes on the left are set on "on" , I did log in .

I don't have the time to keep doing this - how do I log on and stay logged on.

Carmen


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I don't have the time to keep doing this - how do I log on and stay logged on.
> 
> Carmen


No idea, it happens to me too sometimes. As soon as you finish typing something highlight and copy it, so if you're logged off you can log back on and still have the info to paste into your reply. 

You can also type a response in Notepad, copy, and then paste to the thread you're replaying to once you log in.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Andaka said:


> I like Sundance Kid -- he was smart and long lived. My dogs have Sundance Kid heavily in their pedigrees.


Mine does too. On Sire's side (heavy on Color Guard) and on Dam's side through Black Jack.

Apologies to OP for going off on a tangent.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Him?
> Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes
> 
> Why are you happy not to see him in the pedigree?


Yes, Dallas, I think he was a good dog. He had a herding championship as well as his show accomplishments. But I think it is hard to get a good ASL pedigree nowadays where he is not prominant, often line bred on. Kind of the Lance of yesterday. or Uran in the GSL. 

I am not a Geneva fan, Dallas daughter, but I am sure he has had better progeny. It is just that I think we breed too heavily on one dog and it is hard to get away from him.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> It seems like Sundance was a busy guy.
> 
> Is this the Black Jack you're talking about?
> AM/CAN SEL Waltraut's That's Black Jack CD - German Shepherd Dog


That's him.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sundance Kid.....was inbred 2-2 on Dopple-tays Hawkeye,(who definitely had marginal temperament at best), Hawkeye was inbred 2-3 on Lance. Mix in there, in Kitty's pedigree, Korporal of Waldesruh, who was an outright spook(I met the dog, not hearsay), and you have the foundation for many dogs in current ASL pedigrees.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

there was a huge scandal/controversy about andretti semen being replaced after andretti became sterile. dna testing (when it became available) proved some offspring of andretti actually were not. all a matter of public record...google and you'll find it.

as well as the temperment problems, many people felt that all the lance and hawkeye inbreedings introduced epilepsy to the breed.

i too saw most of these dogs personally...except the carmspack dogs which i know nothing about except that she has a good reputation amongst people here on the board who i respect.

sad fact of the matter is that it's very, very difficult to find a healthy/sound american show lines shepherd these days.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

and yes, bear (sundance kid) was a very nice dog, who produced some very nice dogs. but just as after a point "all roads lead to lance", then it was bear, now it's dallas and the boss. oversaturation of the gene pool has caused so many problems.


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