# Breeder Recommendation - Companion Dog 10 hr from Denver CO



## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

Hello,

I am going to tell you everything I am looking for in a dog and hopefully you can recommend a breeder within a 10 hour drive of Denver CO. I understand the need to train, socialize, and exercise this breed to get the below desired results.

1. Relaxed Temperament is everything. I don't want a dog for schutzhund, or one that will be aggressive. Babies will be forthcoming. I want the look of a big dog but if it is aggressive i cant take him places and that defeats the purpose in my opinion. Think brewery patios in denver with lots of people and other dogs. I want to be able to take him to places like this after the proper training and socialization without having to worry about it. Random kids coming up and slapping it, stuff like that.

2. Energetic and good Hips once grown- Good hiking and outdoors dog in all seasons. Can handle up to 3 days backpacking 10 miles per day in the rocky mountain during the summer.

3. Smart - I want to be able to do lots of obedience training with the dog, possibly agility, smell training, etc... 

4. Loyal and Bonding - Looking for a companion dog more than anything else

5. Easy nerves and not scared - I hate dogs that are skiddish and nervous all of the time

*SO* After hearing everything do you think that a working line from the correct breeder would meet my needs? 

If so can you please recommend one that focuses on good temperament and companion dogs? Is there such a thing?

-Phil


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Hi and welcome! I do think you could possibly find what you are looking for in a very well bred GSD. But, I do need to point out that aggression is part of the breed standard. This does not mean that the aggression will be inappropriate, but it should be there. So, if you are looking for a dog with absolutely no aggression, I would probably not look for a GSD. If you are open to looking at other breeds that are loyal and great companions, perhaps broaden your search to include Collies, labs, goldens and maybe even Aussies.

If you have your heart set on a GSD, my suggestion would be to go out to IPO clubs (even though you don't want to pursue it yourself) and GSD clubs and meet as many GSDs as you possibly can. Talk to the owners about what their dogs are like, if they think the aggression they display is appropriate, if they are good with children and tolerate strangers and other dogs. Ask how their dogs behave at home. If you find a dog with a temperament that appeals to you, ask which breeder that dog came from. Then go from there. Good luck in your search!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have no idea distance from you, but look into Austerlitz in OK.


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Welcome!


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## cherub737 (May 31, 2010)

I do not know of them myself nor have I ever met or had any dealings with them but I have heard nice temp. dogs come out of von Black Forest Kennel in Colorado Springs, Co. They have both show and working line. The show side has introduced a new male from von Bad Boll kennel in Germany and they are reputable (Judge is the breeder) They are also repeating the last working line liter so you could see what you would be getting there. Again, I do not know them myself, just heard they were a decent kennel. You would not consider outside of CO.?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Traumwolfen in North Platte NE has very solid dogs....there may be a 3 month old female available now who is just what you are looking for.


Lee


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

cherub737 said:


> I do not know of them myself nor have I ever met or had any dealings with them but I have heard nice temp. dogs come out of von Black Forest Kennel in Colorado Springs, Co. They have both show and working line. The show side has introduced a new male from von Bad Boll kennel in Germany and they are reputable (Judge is the breeder) They are also repeating the last working line liter so you could see what you would be getting there. Again, I do not know them myself, just heard they were a decent kennel. You would not consider outside of CO.?


Willing to drive atleast 10 hours


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Honestly, I would not recommend a working line. Your first criteria is 'relaxed temperament'. The WLs are bred to be busy. That's not to say you can't find a mellow pup in a WL litter, it happens. But, WL pups, in general, will be happiest in working homes. You're much more likely to find your laid back pup among the show lines.

Your GSD will be deliriously happy if you do lots of obedience training together as well as the other activities you mentioned.

My caveat would be--don't limit yourself geographically. The perfect puppy for you may be outside of your range. Don't count out non local breeders, you could be missing out on a great dog.

I got my current pup sight unseen from a breeder with a stellar reputation and he's exactly what I'd hoped he would be.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Hi and welcome! I do think you could possibly find what you are looking for in a very well bred GSD. But, I do need to point out that aggression is part of the breed standard. This does not mean that the aggression will be inappropriate, but it should be there. So, if you are looking for a dog with absolutely no aggression, I would probably not look for a GSD. If you are open to looking at other breeds that are loyal and great companions, perhaps broaden your search to include Collies, labs, goldens and maybe even Aussies.
> 
> If you have your heart set on a GSD, my suggestion would be to go out to IPO clubs (even though you don't want to pursue it yourself) and GSD clubs and meet as many GSDs as you possibly can. Talk to the owners about what their dogs are like, if they think the aggression they display is appropriate, if they are good with children and tolerate strangers and other dogs. Ask how their dogs behave at home. If you find a dog with a temperament that appeals to you, ask which breeder that dog came from. Then go from there. Good luck in your search!


Are there any breeders that focus on breeding out aggression more than others? People who make dogs for families and not police for example? I understand that they will still have some aggression but the key is to not be aggressive at inappropriate times like you said. I cant find anything other than people saying they use strict bloodlines and breed to the standard...


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## cherub737 (May 31, 2010)

OK, so if you are set on "driving only" I think I would go the extra mile to Alpine Kennel in Phoenix Az. You could fly there and drive back in a rental 2 days. I think would be 13 hrs from you. Hans of Alpine is the "brother" kennel to Jinopo kennel in the Czech. They know the lines like the back of their hand and can tell you which breeding to choose from. Two people here (husband/wife) each bought a puppy from Jinopo (had them flown in from the Czech). They are both retired police. They bought the dogs (two different litters) as home companions. The wife will do nose works and I think he may do tracking. Because I like Jinopo kennel I have gone down a few times to see the pups in class. They are calm self assured and unaffected by anything around them. No fear issues, very confident. Working lines can be great dogs in an active home and I have seen show lines that also can be hyper and with issues...Good and bad in both you just have to get a good breeder who understands the temp/drives etc of the paired lines. Had you been OK to fly a pup in, there are great options in Canada, NY and PA My boy, a working line with strong prey/food drives is unbelievable in his training and work ethic...but in the home he is the quietest dog I have ever owned...calm and now quite respectful at 26 mo. Best of luck!

PS I just saw the post of the aggression concern. Any good GSD is going to have a certain level...what is very important is finding a dog that has a great on/off switch. Very clear in the head. My dog takes his protection quite seriously but, lesson over, he is a sweet mush and will allow anyone I allow. If I walk up to you in friendship he will flip to heel position by you and press his whole body in...very affectionate. On the ferry he left my side to stay by a quadriplegic boy in a wheel chair the entire time. The boys parents could not believe it. He visits 2 x mo to my friend with Parkinson's Disease and will stay with him in a down for HOURS...on his own. His sister saved her owner as she took a stroke and now handles the grooming towels loading them in baskets and dragging them to another building...all before 20 mo An incredible litter because they sire/dam came from very knowledgeable breeders. So I really caution you to look for the reputation of the breeder above all....established knowing the lines.His sire is a top sport dog, world podium, so very high drive...his mother comes from working lines/etc but also was second in Canadian Nationals....she is their house dog, also sweet calm and loving. And he is my first working line...I had all show line prior to him. He is my best yet.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am going to tell you everything I am looking for in a dog and hopefully you can recommend a breeder within a 10 hour drive of Denver CO. I understand the need to train, socialize, and exercise this breed to get the below desired results.
> 
> ...


Have you ever had a dog before? Or a GSD before? If so, jumping straight into a working line can be disastrous for you and the dog. They are definitely not a beginner dog.
In #1 you say relaxed and in #2 you say energetic. They are not relaxed for the first couple years of their life at least. If you want a dog that does tasks and works and has good hips then a working line can fit that criteria but they are not relaxed and definitely not for the first time owner. That's how these dogs end up in shelters. They can learn to be relaxed at home but only after a lot of exercise and stimulation like tracking and bite work, and you said you do not want to do dog sports. Just going for walks is not enough. Also, they are naturally aggressive to an extent. If they don't have an outlet for their aggression then it can become a problem. I'm not saying they will attack family (though they do as pups in the form of nips and bites) but they may chase animals or growl and bark at the wrong person. The brewery patio thing has me concerned, I've had show lines that were very dog aggressive and suspicious of other people. Having some drunk fool come up and try to pet my show line german shepherd (who are supposed to be mellower) would make me very uneasy. If I were you I would get a nice working labrador retriever. They are a very underrated breed who can be very protective when needed, they are used in law enforcement and can go hiking with you and then relax at the bar while you sip your beer. But be warned, labs are known to bite a lot just like GSDs as puppies.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Focus on the experience and dogs of the breeder. A good breeder of any line can supply you what you specify. A less knowledgeable breeder and Internet breeders can get you in trouble. Good luck!
Ps The really class breeders make it a high priority to provide buyer with what they want....and inform prospective buyers if either they can't provide them with right pup because they don't have it, or the buyer has expectations that doesn't fit into their breeding program.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Are there any breeders that focus on breeding out aggression more than others? People who make dogs for families and not police for example? I understand that they will still have some aggression but the key is to not be aggressive at inappropriate times like you said. I cant find anything other than people saying they use strict bloodlines and breed to the standard...


There are breeders that focus on breeding GSDs specifically for being pets. Unfortunately, I don't recommend them. I prefer to find a breeder that really knows their lines, their dogs' working abilities, how to properly match two dogs for breeding to create solid puppies. I have one GSD from a breeder that doesn't actively get out there and work all of their dogs... a lot of pet people buy from them. And while I love my boy dearly, he has a poor temperament as well as health issues. I was looking for "just a pet" (and to do obedience) when I bought him, and did not yet understand the ins and outs of finding a really good breeder. I also had no interest in doing any bite sports at the time, so I didn't see the value of going to a breeder who was actively doing that with their dogs. Anyway, long story short, I ended up finding a trainer who does IPO when I needed help managing my boy, and then I really saw what went into training a dog for IPO. The sport isn't just about having a dog that bites or displays aggression... there is a bond between the handler and the dog that was unlike anything I had seen before. I ended up getting my next dog from my trainer's breeding program, and she is night and day different from my boy. Drive for days, but the best house dog I could imagine. Stable, can absolutely go anywhere. Her aggression is appropriate... she is clear headed. 

I never would have understood what makes a truly good breeder if not for my experience with getting a dog from someone who markets to pet people. And I never would have gotten another GSD if not for seeing the difference between my boy and the clear headed dogs I watched doing IPO.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Focus on the experience and dogs of the breeder. A good breeder of any line can supply you what you specify. A less knowledgeable breeder and Internet breeders can get you in trouble. Good luck!
> Ps The really class breeders make it a high priority to provide buyer with what they want....and inform prospective buyers if either they can't provide them with right pup because they don't have it, or the buyer has expectations that doesn't fit into their breeding program.


Is he a first time dog owner? If so, advising him to get a working line gsd will most likely end up with him re-homing or giving it away to a shelter. I knew people who wanted a big bad GSD but were in for a rude awakening when they saw how much work is needed just for them to behave "normal".
I'm just looking out for the dog. He wants to take his dog to crowded bars with other dogs and drunk people around.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Julian G said:


> *Is he a first time dog owner? If so, advising him to get a working line gsd will most likely end up with him re-homing or giving it away to a shelter. *I knew people who wanted a big bad GSD but were in for a rude awakening when they saw how much work is needed just for them to behave "normal".
> I'm just looking out for the dog. He wants to take his dog to crowded bars with other dogs and drunk people around.


This is false. False on many levels.

Many working/competing/sport dogs have progeny and littermates living happily in non-working, "pet only" homes. 

Many good breeders prohibit "rehoming or giving away" their dogs. In the event of a mismatch or problem, the dog will be returned to the breeder, per contract.

Regardless of whether or not the OP selects a German Shepherd for his lifestyle, the bolded statement above is incorrect.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Are there any breeders that focus on breeding out aggression more than others? People who make dogs for families and not police for example? I understand that they will still have some aggression but the key is to not be aggressive at inappropriate times like you said. I cant find anything other than people saying they use strict bloodlines and breed to the standard...



1st off - you are getting recommendations that are all over the place - high power Czech importer to imported show lines....breeders who the recommender does not KNOW, whose dogs they do not know, and recommendations from people who are only just starting to have GSDs themselves....

You have to sift through the information logically....

Aggression is part and parcel of what makes a GSD the dog it is....a guard dog, a working dog....a protective dog.....getting rid of it gives you a pointy eared, hairy, energetic stuffie.......

That being said - appropriate aggression is needed in the breed. The breed is SUPPOSED to have discernment. With so many breeding for prey, prey, prey and sport - the balance is gone and so is discernment...then there are those who breed FOR police/military - they want aggression -pure raw aggression without the discernment....

Every breeder or broker - especially brokers!!! - are going to have the perfect dog for you....they take your money and could care less about your family and you....there are too many puppies and dogs to sell to the next person. Everyone says the same things - the words every buyer wants to hear....

So - I make it a rule not to recommend anyone I don't have first hand knowledge of or know personally. More should do this IMO. I have bred 16 litters, including a couple in Europe after buying one female and not being able to import her immediately due to family crisis. Lots of titled dogs, and other breeders producing titled dogs from my dogs.

The litter I recommended is from a female whose grandmother I imported and bred several times....I owned and raised several of her progeny and grandprogeny. Without exception - this family is solid and makes wonderful family dogs...the female, Ebene, has been here in my house 3 or 4 different times for a few days each time. Same with her daughter. I just spent time with a pup from this litter last weekend, Logan....family pup with a first time GSD owner...family dynamics include a teenager, friends, and a severely disabled child - the pup curls up beside this child. 

Onto the sire of the litter - I own him, he lives with a well known trainer in Kentucky who is a close friend. I own his littermate, half sister, mother and a young female from teh next generation. A pup from the sire's sister is owned by a board member - she is a farm dog and constant companion to her owner. She was purchased as such - but is also doing great in IPO sport even though she was sold as a companion. Look for Astrovan's posts - you will see the dog riding on a quad with the owner and just being a farm dog. So, with these family ties, I have followed the litter on a nearly daily basis.

The mother is a therapy dog. She has AKC Rally and Obedience titles. Quite a few pups from her 2 litters already have AKC titles, an IPO titled last weekend on a 20 month old daughter (98-90-90)....

Basically - what I am trying to say, is that you really need get a good feel for the breeder who is being recommended and why - some are really really just major commercial operations which are selling a product to a consumer and that is their goal.


Lee


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> There are breeders that focus on breeding GSDs specifically for being pets. Unfortunately, I don't recommend them. I prefer to find a breeder that really knows their lines, their dogs' working abilities, how to properly match two dogs for breeding to create solid puppies. I have one GSD from a breeder that doesn't actively get out there and work all of their dogs... a lot of pet people buy from them. And while I love my boy dearly, he has a poor temperament as well as health issues. I was looking for "just a pet" (and to do obedience) when I bought him, and did not yet understand the ins and outs of finding a really good breeder. I also had no interest in doing any bite sports at the time, so I didn't see the value of going to a breeder who was actively doing that with their dogs. Anyway, long story short, I ended up finding a trainer who does IPO when I needed help managing my boy, and then I really saw what went into training a dog for IPO. The sport isn't just about having a dog that bites or displays aggression... there is a bond between the handler and the dog that was unlike anything I had seen before. I ended up getting my next dog from my trainer's breeding program, and she is night and day different from my boy. Drive for days, but the best house dog I could imagine. Stable, can absolutely go anywhere. Her aggression is appropriate... she is clear headed.
> 
> I never would have understood what makes a truly good breeder if not for my experience with getting a dog from someone who markets to pet people. And I never would have gotten another GSD if not for seeing the difference between my boy and the clear headed dogs I watched doing IPO.


To add to this, you do want someone who _cares _about pet people, but I would echo GypsyGhost that you do not want someone who _markets _to pet people. Some type of higher goal - be it show, IPO, herding - is important. It shows that the breeder is striving to produce dogs who are intelligent and clearheaded and stable enough to work in some way. (And I'd assert that a show environment can be one decent test for show line dogs; they have to tolerate a lot of chaos, and if their breeder/handler is being honest with themselves, I think they can learn from that. It shouldn't be the whole picture and I'd like to see show line breeders working their dogs in other venues as well, but it can give some information.) 

You want someone who puts a lot of effort and research and care into their breedings. You want someone who is breeding stable, sane dogs who exhibit appropriate aggression and who know when not to exhibit any at all. Those dogs make excellent pets. That's why you don't buy from a "pet" breeder. The extra miles the truly good show and working breeders go to produce wonderful dogs who are stable and versatile enough to be good pets as well as good sport or performance dogs are worth the research and purchase price from a buyer.

I have a show line dog. She's generally calm and collected. She can handle herself in a crowded urban environment. She can handle herself at a park or on a patio. She also knows when aggression would be entirely inappropriate. Just the other night, a strange toddler whacked her across the side of the head, and her response was to wag her tail and try to offer kisses. I would recommend her breeder all day long, except that it is out of the 10 hour radius you've set.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> The litter I recommended


Hey Lee,

Thank you so much for that detailed post. 

Do you think that the planned "N litter" with Komet and Jaia would also be a good fit? I am not looking to get a dog for several months or I would hop on one of those remaining females. Please let me know your thoughts and I will call the breeder for an introduction early next week.

Best,

Phil


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Marsha, of Traumwolfen, is an active member here. Her username on the forums is @mnm if you wanted to ask her directly about future litters. Her dogs have bloodlines descending from Lee at Wolfstraum's dogs, and I would imagine both upcoming litters to be very similar to her previous 'L' litter.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Julian G said:


> Is he a first time dog owner? If so, advising him to get a working line gsd will most likely end up with him re-homing or giving it away to a shelter. I knew people who wanted a big bad GSD but were in for a rude awakening when they saw how much work is needed just for them to behave "normal".
> I'm just looking out for the dog. He wants to take his dog to crowded bars with other dogs and drunk people around.


Julian, you may know more about working lines than I, but my experiences are that there are plenty of breeders of WL to include myself from many many litters that Provided FIRST time owners with the exact type of dog the OP desires. 
But I defer to your knowledge if this is your experience in breeding.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL, coloradoshep, I hope you realize that Cliff is joking - he has probably worked, trained, titled, bred and adopted out more working line GSDs in his life than most experienced breeders on this Forum all put together. :thumbup:


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Julian, you may know more about working lines than I, but my experiences are that there are plenty of breeders of WL to include myself from many many litters that Provided FIRST time owners with the exact type of dog the OP desires.
> But I defer to your knowledge if this is your experience in breeding.


Ah, so you're the one who's dumbing down the once great GSD?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Ah, so you're the one who's dumbing down the once great GSD?


Please tell me you are joking or trying to be funny.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Julian G said:


> cliffson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Julian, you may know more about working lines than I, but my experiences are that there are plenty of breeders of WL to include myself from many many litters that Provided FIRST time owners with the exact type of dog the OP desires.
> ...


Oh boy. Julian, I think maybe you'd be wise to stop. Unless cliff is kind enough to go by the adage of not entering into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Ah, so you're the one who's dumbing down the once great GSD?


Well that is quite the statement to make... Julian, your lack of experience and knowledge about GSDs, and dogs in general, seems to be apparent to everyone but you.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Julian,

What kind of GSD experience do you have? I mean this seriously. Someone came here looking for advice and you presented some pretty strong opinions. Since OP might be factoring in this thread into his decision, i think the responsible thing to do is to prove you know what you're talking about.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> Well that is quite the statement to make... Julian, your lack of experience and knowledge about GSDs, and dogs in general, seems to be apparent to everyone but you.


Purposefully breeding a dumbed down version of a working dog in order to cater to first timers constitutes knowledge? Please.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Purposefully breeding a dumbed down version of a working dog in order to cater to first timers constitutes knowledge? Please.


What constitutes knowledge? Reading and not actually owning your own dog? Your brothers doesn't count....


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dotbat215 said:


> Julian,
> 
> What kind of GSD experience do you have? I mean this seriously. Someone came here looking for advice and you presented some pretty strong opinions. Since OP might be factoring in this thread into his decision, i think the responsible thing to do is to prove you know what you're talking about.


I know enough not to recommend a WL gsd to a first timer who wants to take it to bars. I darn sure know enough not to promote the breeding of dumbed down versions of a once great breed because people like sable coats. This is exactly why this breed has went into the toilet over the past 2 decades. I can't be the only one who wants to protect the breed.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> What constitutes knowledge? Reading and not actually owning your own dog? Your brothers doesn't count....


I've had GSDs for over 25 years, he got his from a backyard breeder and dumped him on me. Your type is the reason the breed took a nosedive.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Coloradoshep - there's a poster on this thread who doesn't own a German Shepherd (working line or otherwise), I'm sure you can weigh those opinions accordingly. I took my working line dog to Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras, we had a fabulous time.

Sorry for the clutter, wishing you only the best in your puppy search.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

"I'm only asking the questions."


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I've had GSDs for over 25 years, he got his from a backyard breeder and dumped him on me. Your type is the reason the breed took a nosedive.


What's my type?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I've had GSDs for over 25 years, he got his from a backyard breeder and dumped him on me. Your type is the reason the breed took a nosedive.


Seriously? 

An upstanding dog owner who did his due diligence in finding a phenomenonal working line dog, and who works said dog with well respected clubs, is the reason the breed took a nose dive?

That's just laughable.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Agree! Should be no problem getting a nice pup from a reputable working line breeder!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Whoa!!! Sorry that this thread degenerated into petty bickering. I'll clean it up and issue warnings (or suspensions) later when I have more time. 

coloradoshep, please don't be afraid to start a new thread if you have anymore questions.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> Traumwolfen in North Platte NE has very solid dogs....there may be a 3 month old female available now who is just what you are looking for.


The litter Lee is recommending sounds promising. I would contact the breeder (Lee can help you with the contact).

As far as first time GSD owners getting a working line. That is all I have ever owned. GSD bred to work. I have never, in all these decades, placed a dog in a shelter or sold a dog because it was too much for me including my first GSD. A good breeder will place an appropriate puppy with a newbie handler or they will direct them to another litter. What the OP is looking for is totally possible. 

Oops, forgot this thread was closed. Guess as an ADMIN I get the last word.


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