# New Skete? I don't get it



## sigh (Feb 12, 2014)

Hello all,


I just got a new rescue dog and had planned on training him using the New Skete method. However, I see that there's backlash against them? 

I don't understand.....apparently electronically shocking dogs is OKAY, but being firm and physically in control is not?

I trained my Otis with the Skete book when I realized he was going to be HUGE. Admittedly he was a 3 month old puppy and it was easy (I guess). I think I might have done the controversial alpha dog roll ONCE with him. Hello? Why is electrically shocking more humane??? I think the personal contact ENHANCES the training and bonding............


Anyway, now I'm all nervous and confused. I brought my last dog up on New Skete training principles and he was the Best DOG Ever..............literally his behavior was commented on by strangers and I trusted him unconditionally to behave. Maybe I was blessed with a good, good dog..............or maybe just maybe the monks, who LIVE with dogs have it right.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've never once had to discipline my GSD. Never once used physical force to make him do anything. He listens and is eager to please. Never once worried about projecting an alpha image. I just KNOW that I'm the alpha, and my dogs read me as such. I don't have to do anything special. People tell me that their goal is to have their dogs as well behaved and listening as well as mine. Then they go home and try the Cesar Milan tssk and pokes and try to make their dogs submit to them. I don't have to make my dogs submit, it doesn't occur to them to challenge my position. It's just the energy I give out. 

Low stim e-collar training is a world apart from the mentality of 'shocking' your dog. Low stim is exactly as it sounds - you work at the lowest possible setting the dog can feel - sometimes so low, people can't even feel it. 


With my dog, I mostly worked on engagement, on obedience training, on meeting his exercise needs. 


He's a pretty good dog. Can't complain.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

article re monks

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My own personal belief too on owning dogs, based only on my own experience, so not coming from some big dog authority here, is that if you have to physically make a dog do something because he won't do it when you tell him too - like get in his crate, get off the bed, move out of your way - then you have serious relationship issues and a breakdown in pack structure. Many, many, MANY times when people come on the forum with "my dog bit me!", it was in a situation where they were trying to physically get a dog to move: pull them off the bed because they wouldn't get down when asked, being pushed into a crate because dog would not enter on its own, etc . . . 

Being firm is fine, but you should be mentally in control, and firm in your expectations - if you have to be physically take control, you've lost the battle already.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't recall reading the alpha roll in the new book. However, it could have been in there. Things I don't agree with I just disregard. They did have a lot of other great training techniques.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

I thought the book was a great read and a good book (old version have not read the new one). I think their techniques do work, and at one time they where considered the correct way. Like anything techniques grow and change and people have found arguably better ways to approach training. IMO there is a lot of great ideas and insight in those books but I don't follow the approach as a guide to training. I take some of the ideas but not all. 

I don't think you have to force your dog to see you as an Alpha if things are going right. Your dog will know you are the Alpha without ever having to force the idea on them. It think if you are a leader with your dog and work with them on a regular basis they will naturally see you as the Alpha roll and will happily follow you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The current book has removed the alpha roll. I have both books. 

I see no issue with most of their methods. I like to think I can read and decide what part of what method will work for my dog and myself. I use parts of a variety of 'methods' to make my own method which I hope is balanced.


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## sigh (Feb 12, 2014)

I agree with everything you guys have said. I didn't even remember the alpha roll until I saw the brouhaha on-line while looking for training books. I remembered it being more about developing a close relationship, with mutual love and respect, with your dog.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

The New Skete method is absolutely fine for training your dog. There are so many methods out there and I think they all work to a degree, depending on the dog and the handler. 
I also struggle with questioning which training method is best and after alot of research, talking with people, observing, and using common sense, I have come to the conclusion that it depends on:
1. What level of training do you want to accomplish? A "well trained" dog by 1 person could mean that they come when called, or a "well trained" dog by another person could mean that they perform in advanced obedience competitions, bite work, SAR, etc.
2. The personality and temperment of the dog. Some methods work great on some dogs and fail with other dogs. Find what method works and stick with it.
3. The handler. A really soft person probably will not do well with + punishment training. The dog will sense their lack of confidence and their owners un-easiness.

This is jsut my opinion and limited experience.

I see nothing wrong with New Skete. I read their books and they have a ton of experinece and clearly love and respect their dogs.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Personally, I would suggest you go with what has worked in the past...it only makes sense. Granted, what may have worked on a previous dog might not be the method which will work on a different dog. Too many folks stating they have never disciplined a dog and their dog is wonderful sounds like a cheap infomercial....too good to be true....or their idea of a "wonderfully trained dog" is quite different than another person's definition of a well trained dog. Dogs are simply not all the same and some tougher dogs need to be dealt with differently than soft dogs. This notion that some have never disciplined a dog is only being stated by some because "discipline" is a relative subject. Crating a dog at times is most certainly a disciplinary action just as withholding a reward/treat for improper behavior is. The word "No" is a disciplinary action just as using a collar and leash is at times. Anyone who would suggest they have never disciplined their dog is simply rationalizing their method because the reality is....in one form or another they used discipline......or they are happy with a completely unmanageable dog....it's of no concern to me.

Of course there are commonalities most all dog owners share as we educate our dogs along with ourselves and many times similar methods will correct the unwanted behavior or create the desired behavior....but discipline is a common thread. In my world, which some might scoff at....if I require my dog to lay down and wait while I put my shoes on to take her for a walk and then she breaks...I will then stop the process until she holds patiently..and then continue to prepare for a walk. This process of having her wait in position rather than going bonkers is still a process of using discipline. Sure, the dog finally figures out, the sooner I get my shoes/jacket/collar and leash attached, the sooner she gets to go on a walk...BUT...when I stop the process because the dog broke position...is not my stopping until she takes the proper position a form of discipline...I most certainly believe it is. If other posters are talking about never PHYSICALLY disciplining their dog than they should be more clear. Using an e-collar on the lowest setting is a form of discipline no matter how you slice it....and I don't see anything wrong with it, if that is what it takes. Using even handed discipline in whatever form it takes seems to be required at times...since none of us speak "dog" and even if we did, it more than likely would still require the use of discipline at times.

I have learned a lot from certain folks in this room and the common denominator of these particular folks is their ability to train a dog not just well but efficiently....more with an understanding of how the dog perceives the situation rather than the human perception of the situation.

SuperG


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

This book was among all the books I read on training when I started on my 

first pair of German Shepherds in 86. Like all books on training, I take some 

and I leave some. Lew Burkes dog training book was my favorite of that era

and it is still my all time favorite for most of the basic obedience and the more 

advanced training. I don't know who came up with it, but the alpha roll with 

the wrong dog or the wrong man doing it could get someone hurt. Anyone 

who has ever had a big bad bold male knows "that dog" HAS to know who the 

"PACK" leader is. If a bold dog doesn't respect your leadership they will run all 

over you or worse. Once the dog accepts you as the "PACK" leader, it actually 

takes pressure off the dog. If you own a laid back dog, like some of the 

females I have owned, you may get away with all the new age training and 

the leadership role may not be as important. All in all The Monks had it going 

on. At the same time I have to admit there are better methods for at least

one of the basics, that would be teaching down with a treat from the sit 

position in place of a leash. To me, training dogs is just like raising kids. 

Compare what kids were like in the forties and fifties against what came after 

Dr. Spock and the sixties. My daughter is 21 years old and I have never had 

5 seconds of trouble out of her. This is going to make me sound like a jerk, 

but I think my dog Dex is in the 99 percentile and I know my daughter is. 

Old school common sense is timeless. 

Thank you for saving your new buddy. Good luck to both of you.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Deno said:


> To me, training dogs is just like raising kids.
> 
> Compare what kids were like in the forties and fifties against what came after
> 
> ...


Very well said!
I think about this often when I hear people managing their kids bad behavior by "Johnny, if you stop running around the store, you will get candy". Kids act like maniacs today. No discipline. I would say that most kids are +R trained. It may work on some kids, but not all. I relate the same principles to dog training. 
Common sense, patience, discipline, consistency!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

@SuperG: that's exactly what I do, before heading out - works like a charm, lol. But there are people who would say that we're being permissive, because we should be giving a collar correction (or something) to get the dog back in position. 

I think they're right on one hand. Yes, the dog will learn not to move until released. That's ok, I'm fine with my dog learning something else instead: he can control the situation by making the right decision, which is resuming position. 

Maybe this is where we have the 'great divide' between training styles? It's just a guess on my part.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

dpc134 said:


> Very well said!
> I think about this often when I hear people managing their kids bad behavior by "Johnny, if you stop running around the store, you will get candy". Kids act like maniacs today. No discipline. I would say that most kids are +R trained. It may work on some kids, but not all. I relate the same principles to dog training.
> Common sense, patience, discipline, consistency!


I raised two incredible daughters who at 31 and 28, never gave me any problems, and we are all there for each other, without ever hitting them and have never felt the need for a level 60 to 100 ecollar correction on a dog. You can be firm and consistent without being brutal.

There is a good article by Jerry Bradshaw on dealing with the "dominant" dog on his article page- it is not about overpowering the dog and discusses alternatives. I think it worth a read in the context of this thread. I am learning new ways of things (like the motivational out) that are more effective than the old ways. Scroll down to the bottom of the links page and see dominance aggression.


Training Articles | Tarheel Canine

EDIT this is a quote I really like from that article 

"The key to turning around dominance problems 
is to gain the dog’s respect using your brain, not your 
hands. Reject the model of “Alpha” that you have been 
taught and had drilled into your head. You are not a dog, 
and your dog does not relate to you as a dog. Think of 
yourself as the “Super-Alpha.” You control all the dog’s 
resources, all of his activities, yet dogs are still able to 
push us around! Dogs don’t expect equality, so your job is 
to put all the odds in your favor. Imagine you are training 
a grizzly bear and not a dog. What would you do? 
First, you must disorient his expectations, and set 
the dog up to have to show deference or submission to 
get anything he desires, including affection, rewards, 
food, including toys, bite sessions. This is commonly 
called the “No Free Lunch” program, and uses a 
principle called the “Premack Principle” It states that a 
dog will perform a less desirable activity (obedience or 
social subordination) in order to get to perform a more 
desirable activity"


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, my husband was one of the ones who got ripped up by "alpha rolling" a dog. It was a "bad to the bone" female english springer spaniel. It is not necessarily the "alpha" dog's who react; I assume she was scared and felt cornered. 

She actually did have issues with this dog like we never had before or after, and we wonder now if she had elements of rage syndrome or small seizures as her eyes would glaze over when she went into a snapping binge. We were able to control her environment and live peaceably with her but we always put her up when folks came over.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

20 years ago I bought the New Skete books and enjoyed them using alot of their methods. Much better then other material I was told about AT THE TIME 

But, when you know better you do better............ and it just happens that dog training has had alot more human brain power put into it over the past 20 years. Most training USED to be about setting your dog up in training to 'fail' because that way a quick correction would teach it they were 'wrong'. So training was basically alot of the dog being 'wrong' and we then 'correcting ' it to teach.

NOW, with us in the picture using our brains. Instead of REACTING after our dogs are WRONG. We are supposed to be pro-active to come up with ways to set our pups up to succeed and the reward them. So the vast majority of the best teaching now has our dogs being brilliant/correct/REWARDED. Rather then the wrong (bad)/correct method.

I prefer the new way. And I still do have corrections for some things, and I use the prong and the e-collar down the line. But even though they are on the dogs they are rarely used because my dogs are 'in the game' so trying to earn the darn reward way before I have to resort to a 'correction'.

When you know ENGAGEMENT is key to all training. It makes a huge difference to the way we look at dogs and how they CAN learn. At any age.
---> 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> 20 years ago I bought the New Skete books and enjoyed them using alot of their methods. Much better then other material I was told about AT THE TIME
> 
> But, when you know better you do better............ and it just happens that dog training has had alot more human brain power put into it over the past 20 years. Most training USED to be about setting your dog up in training to 'fail' because that way a quick correction would teach it they were 'wrong'. So training was basically alot of the dog being 'wrong' and we then 'correcting ' it to teach.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed reading a few of the Monkeys of New Skete as well...

When my last shepherd died, a thoughtful lady who I didn't even know hardly sent me a nice sympathy card and a book called " If Dog's Prayers Were Answered, Bones Would Rain From The Sky" by Susan Clothier, published in 2002 I believe. She cited Chapter 19 as a good place for me to start due to the loss of my Hana. It seemed fitting enough but the rest of the book was rather interesting as well....especially for those who find interest in learning to "talk and listen" to their dogs. I don't know that it is a guide to training per se but a different perspective that might make one think differently about their dog.

SuperG


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

I have a few of their books and don't remember the alpha stuff. I just read the first one again right before we got our current pup and it's probably a 15 year old copy. With all things I take what I like and agree with and drop the rest. 

All in all I think there is more good that comes out of their philosophy on dogs than bad. A dog is a companion that you adopt, you do not own a dog, etc. etc. Still good reading and we still use some of their techniques.


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## sigh (Feb 12, 2014)

SuperG said:


> ....especially for those who find interest in learning to "talk and listen" to their dogs.
> SuperG


One of the the things the monks emphasize......actually I think it's the over-arching theme of their philosophy (or at least used to be). I don't know, it seems to me that the "old methods" are being painted with an (unflattering) wide brush, using as evidence very small parts of the whole. And frankly, the new world of shock-collars, crates and whatever that prong thing is strikes me as worse than the oh so horrific "alpha-roll" (which, BTW, I think I MIGHT have done ONCE).

IMHO dogs WANT and NEED to know who's in charge; and, well....that would be US. That doesn't mean, however, the way to achieve that status necessarily entails physical correction, hollering and completely intimidating the animal. In some cases that may be necessary.......but I would think that the majority of the time it's not. Most dogs WANT to please us; if they make us happy they want to do it again. If we take time to actually KNOW the dog, pay attention to his wants/likes/fears (I am NOT anthropomorphising here, I just lack the lingo) we can develop a life-long relationship of trust and love. I had it with my Otis and I'll have it with my Bear.


I am not a trainer, breeder or animal behaviorist; I'm just someone who's always had dogs and value them for what they are: loyal companions, helpmates and protectors if need be. I pledge to take care of them to the best of my ability when they're living well, train them to be good citizens while they're here and know when it's better for them to cross the bridge.

I respect ANYBODY who cares enough to fight on a forum for our companions, but I won't participate in the endless back and forth debates; that sort of thing feeds upon itself. I'm just happy to be somewhere that I can pop into, read, ask advice and post silly pics.

DOGS RULE!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, some of the things and by and large I agree with a lot of what you wrote.

Crating is a very effective tool for housebreaking and keeping a dog safe while you are gone and cannot take it with you. It also prepares the dog for safe car rides and vet trips. The downside is it can be abused and becomes the closet you put the dog in when you don't want to deal with it and many dogs are crated far too long.

They tethered the dog, well that is GREAT but not as much I have been told if you want an independent working dog for things like police service or SAR where you don't want a "velcro' dog. But, by and large, I think it is a good thing.

Prongs, well they used a slip (aka choke) collar and most with experience with prongs would say a properly used prong is more humane.

The ecollar as already mentioned can be used in very subtle ways and not to zap your dog into compliance. Their book was targeted at raising pets and does not adjust the dog working offlead 100 yards away from you in the woods, or the competition bite dog etc. 

To me the value of the book was viewing the dog as more than just a "thing" but a being with some spiritual connection to humans. Not human, but a partner. I am reading a new book called the Genius of Dogs. Not a training manual but also interesting in how connected we are to each other.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

throughout history monasteries made money!

they sold honey, they made bread, mead, wines, bitters and beers, cheese , rented land , rented mills , were scribes . They made money, and they held power .

the New Skete's sold dog training and sold dogs . That was their financial liveliehood . 

They were not expert . They were competitive , and had squabbles and wanted super stars . Job Michael Evans . The Nuns and the Monks had their differences . They were human .

The "breeding program" was pretty much set up by AKC 
GSDCofA judge Helen "Scootie" Sherlock, Caralon GSD. 

The fame, in my opinion, was largely fantastic marketing.

The dogs I saw , and I did see many , were not good specimens, NOT healthy , not long lived, not particularly gifted -- falling short of the promise. 

I can't erase an image in the original book where the dogs are exercised by running behind a truck , handlers sitting on the dropped tail gate, breathing in all that exhaust (before emissions controls even). At least bike the dogs .


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I can't erase an image in the original book where the dogs are exercised by running behind a truck , handlers sitting on the dropped tail gate, breathing in all that exhaust (before emissions controls even).


That is one picture from the book that has stayed with me - it upset me too. I couldn't believe the book was recommending and condoning exercising your dog by letting it run behind a truck. All the pics of the monks in the book, many looked like younger, healthy men - couldn't they run or play or bike with the dogs to condition them? 

I've read the book years ago, when the jowl grabbing and shaking and the alpha roll was recommended - 

If the philosophy of making your dog your best friend was new to people reading it, and it helped them develop their relationship with their dog, then the book has been valuable in that sense. It did have a huge impact on dog ownership in general - for me there was not earth-shattering new ideas or philosophies that changed the way I viewed my relationship with my dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

had a friend who stayed with them for a week , this was in the early days . 
her comments were , nothing special , and that the dogs seemed inhibited , cowed .

you can see it in the book. page 144 , teaching a recall . One dog is crouched , dogs have heads turned not looking at their handlers. The dogs all have this touch of worry about them , ears back, tails tight .
The pup page 113 being helped along to recall by reeling in the tether looks totally unenthused, not impressed -- pud dunk pud dunk , reluctant. A pup should fly in for attention , especially when the target is a young boy. 

Another image, if you remember is page 153 , one of the monks straddled behind a mature golden retriever . The caption below the picture says "another method of teaching the down is to lift both front legs and lean over and down the dog, easing it into the down"

This approach was recommended for "some larger breed (GSD, Great Danes, St.Bernards) might need even more body contact and pressure to insure a smooth down. For these breeds, or for dogs who fight the first method, try a slightly modified approach as follows: lift both front legs together, with your hands just below the dogs elbows, and lower the dogs front. At the same time , lean over and into the dog, putting your left knee on the dogs on the dogs back. 
The first few times you may find this movement uncoordinated , but with repetition it will become smoother. Since your face will be quite close to the dog's , you can reassure the dog easily and even use your chin to help lower the dog's head. 

The motion is equivalent of falling on top of the dog, without actually doing so " ending quote taken from page 152 

YIKES ----- so many things patently wrong ---- the dog is resigned OR will bite you , or struggle and resent you . The dog may be anticipating an alpha roll. A woman , petite , most likely will tackle land on top of the dog . And where is all the "connection" "relationship" ???

I remember my daughter who was probably 5 or so at the time looking at the book and asking me "what is that man doing with the dog" -- 

I got the book first addition , always excited to add to my extensive library -- read it and was agitated by the "stuff" . 
Then shortly after my friend did the week long visit. 

oh well I did get a book , another copy , with a written message and autograph .


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Funny I don't remember any of that stuff in the book- what I found helpful was there schedule for housebreaking a puppy-think its helpful to have a schedule-guess an book is what you take from it though


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

did you have original version?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am quoting those excerpts directly out of the book ! 

The first edition came out, I added it to my resource library , I read it , read portions of it to "training" friend (no email or computers in those years!) discussed.

My thought was that there was going to be a lot of bad training that needed to be undone, and there was.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I met one of the dogs they had bred in the mid 80s. Nervy. Large.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly Nancy. Large and long bodied . Soft backs . Soft ligaments and muscle tone . And yes nervy dogs . More than one I met had car sickness and sound sensitivity - thunder storms. Startle .
I met more than a few because they were in the neighbourhood , or in my husbands teachers' network . I saw them when they came asking about an evaluation and could I recommend a good trainer for them.
They loved their dogs but I don't know of anyone that expressed an interest in getting another from them.

In the beginning I asked , have you contacted the breeder , see how they can help you. Seems there was a consensus of disinterest , no calls or letters returned , no help extended. I was put off by the "merchandise" attitude - you've bought your dog , good luck . Reputations are made and they have to be kept. I think there was an interest in the 70's and 80's still with communal living -- and somehow they became marketable.

I can't find it for the life of me but I seem to recall an alternate story that Job Evans had about the monastery and the first dog Kyr , mentioned as the mascot and inspiration for the breeding program.

Kyr was supposed to have been a guide-dog failure , the Monks took him in. I think in one book or magazine Job had said that Kyr was with them for a short while - he disappeared . I took that to mean that he ran away ? In another account Kyr is the monastery companion. UNLESS there was a Kyr one and a Kyr two. Or I am wrong on this altogether .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just to add , this was my experience, my opinion . Others might have quite different experience and opinion. If so , good .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its all abput your goals. I train for sport now what once worked for me to achieve a well behaved pet is no longer sufficient.
I dont really care to get into the whole alpha argument but I will say this. Any social grouping of animals or people that works towards a common goal be it a wolf pack, herd of horses or a team working on tech development have a member or members that are dominant or leaders. For some its natural for others its a struggle. What works for one person wont work for all.

I have never had to use an alpha roll on my gsd its not necessary. I have used it on another dog I own who truly believes he is my number two and can bully the other dogs and people in the house..he is also 8lbs and fears nothing..lol. One day I will find a gsd with his heart and confidence.

Different things work for different dogs and people regardless of what is being pushed as the new fad in the dog training world.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nope. this is a co-operative unit , not a militaristic outfit. the dynamics are fluid and not rigid . goals may change you , but they don't change basic , intrinsic , animals psychology

what some see as handler hard might be handler difficult


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I have a New Skete --born in 2010. He has a lot of Vom Kirschental lines. He is very solid nerved and a beautiful boy--not soft at all, very aloof to strangers but loves those who we invite in. He's doing very well at Nosework and his health is stellar. 
Just wanted to add that as a recent experience.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

blehmannwa said:


> I have a New Skete --born in 2010. He has a lot of Vom Kirschental lines. He is very solid nerved and a beautiful boy--not soft at all, very aloof to strangers but loves those who we invite in. He's doing very well at Nosework and his health is stellar.
> Just wanted to add that as a recent experience.


I also have a New Skete whose parents (James and Xenia) are both Kirschental. He is a complete nervebag and has bitten. He was like this from the moment we brought him home. The Monks told us to destroy him sight unseen. He is now 5 years old. When we picked him up, Julia was teaching the Alpha roll.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

I think I missed this thread originally. Got to add my 2 cents worth...

In 40 years I have read and probably tried every training method that came out, including Koehler. I have had GSDs and/or wolf shepherd crosses in all these years. The most valuable thing I took from all of them is: be selective, use your own common sense. If something seems too 'out there' or cruel, don't do it! Extreme example: The Koehler method for training a dog not to dig holes in the yard! 

What I've also learned is that different dogs require different nuances in training. Soft dogs thrive one way, hard dogs thrive another. Some wolfdogs require a firm 'alpha' (assertive) hand, some are softer than dogs. One size does not fit all.

As far as the mistakes I have made with different dogs early on, they have all worked out, none of them were permanently marred. I have never raised a canine that ended up a 'problem' animal. In recent years I have taken in a number of rescues that came to me with issues, some of which we trained through, some of which we managed. I have a lovely GSD female right now who is very DA. If I could afford an e-collar, after reading a great deal about them from information David W. and others referred me to, I believe I could improve her, but right now we are managing her, and she is still a very good dog.

Susan


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