# What lines to breed to my male?



## Dr89

Ok now before this starts a huge lecture/debate, let me start by saying I am not in any position right now to start breeding GSDs. It will be several years before I have the proper facilities, land, etc. BUT, I'm a serial hobbyist and like to learn as much as I can about everything I do, and I always make it a point to be one of the best at anything I take up!

My male is only 5 1/2 months old right now, he starts obedience and schutzhund in January. I don't know his lines because I have not yet received his papers in the mail. I also haven't had him x-rayed yet because the vet said for the sake of only having to do it once lets wait until he's full grown.

So, for the purpose of this thread: let's assume his hips/elbows/and health screening all check out, lets assume he is from german working lines (months of researching has led me to this conclusion but, I will see for sure when we get the papers,) and lastly let's assume he excels and I title him in a couple of things over the next few years. 

IF he turns out to be breeding material, and I will be checking with various clubs and the schutz people I'm seeing on there opinion of this, then I will be in the market for a high quality bitch. She will come into our home first and foremost as a companion/working dog. But I plan to buy an adult female, titled, breed-worthy, etc. So that being the case, what kind of lines are a good match for a german working type dog. Rambo has high prey drive, and high pack drive, good nerve, and I want to maintain these attributes.

I'm very, very interested in the czech lines, but would these likely be a good match? Let me know your opinions.


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## unloader

opcorn:


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## Dr89

Hahaha, noo I really hope it doesn't go down that road! I'm not some unintelligent fella just trying to make a buck. I'm a hardworking, educated person, and I love the dog sports and the breed in general. I have a lot of learning to do about genetics, training, and everything that goes along with breeding. But I am not shying away from that fact or pretending to know everything I need to know.

There's actually an x-factor to this whole thing: What kicked me off to this idea is the fact that central Kentucky is just overflowing with BYB's, and plenty of people willing to support them. Kentucky is in no way a progressive state, and is very uneducated as a whole. The idea is that if I can someday be in a financial situation that allows me to breed quality german shepherds, foster, and rehabilitate gsd's from shelters, I can sell adults (rescued) and puppies (bred by me and/or rescued) at a price that is comparable to the many BYB's around here, I can perhaps manage to "put out" some of the bad breeders by making them irrelevant.


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## GSDElsa

Um, well, without knowing his pedigree no one can (or I should say SHOULD) tell you what to breed your dog to.

As an aside...why on earth did you purchase you dog without knowing his background??? How do you NOT know his pedigree--with or without papers in hand???


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## GSDElsa

Also, you should probably be looking at things first like health screening and titling before even beginning to worry about the bitch to breed him to. For instance, you should be doing prelim xrays on him around a year with final xrays at 2 years. 

What do YOU think the minimum criteria is to test his temperament before you breed him (ie titles). What is it that you are interested in producing? What is it that you want to accomplish?

When you do find out his bloodlines...those are other things that people will need to know. If you are interested in primarily showing vs. herding vs. SAR vs. Schutzhund vs. SDA etc.


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## W.Oliver

I agree with GSDelsa, health screen, have acceptable hips & elbows, and accomplish a SchH1, then explore breeding the dog. Between here and there, study.


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## Jason L

I just want to add even titling a dog (all the way to SchH3) does that necessarily mean it's breeding material. We'll all be better off if people are just a bit more picky about breeding!


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## Dr89

GSDElsa said:


> Um, well, without knowing his pedigree no one can (or I should say SHOULD) tell you what to breed your dog to.
> 
> As an aside...why on earth did you purchase you dog without knowing his background??? How do you NOT know his pedigree--with or without papers in hand???


I'd just like some ideas about what common combination's are among different lines, or if most stick to the same lines because it results in more stable temperaments maybe?

And as for the second part, when I bought the pup I didn't even know there was a such thing as a reputable breeder vs. a byb. This forum has opened my eyes to so much that goes on, and in my area you can open the newspaper year 'round and see "akc german shepherd pups for sale" and not just one ad, but several. It's almost an epidemic. And I've been thinking lately about what a solution could be. The fact is as long as people are buying dogs from these people, it's not going to stop. So fostering and rescuing isn't enough. I believe you can "market" so to speak, to people who don't understand the crisis, and get them to buy from a *reputable* breeder (hopefully me in a few years)--but that breeder would have to use the general public's outlets (newspaper, craigslist) and be at their price range (~500). You won't find any reputable breeders taking this approach, which is understandable.

But in the eyes of the purchaser, they would see all these ads and then one would stand out because they have "champion bloodlines, certified hips, health guarantee, etc." So if it's around the same price, why would someone NOT buy from that person? And then of course the main difference would be that a dog that didn't work out, would be returned to the breeder (me) and not taken to a shelter. 

Keep in mind this is a thread for gathering info and I'm just thinking through this. No new puppies are in the near future so there is no need to start panicking


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## Dr89

W.Oliver said:


> I agree with GSDelsa, health screen, have acceptable hips & elbows, and accomplish a SchH1, then explore breeding the dog. Between here and there, study.


Yes this is my current plan, but it's just really interesting to me and I wanted to begin getting a feel for what other breeder's are doing.


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## unloader

Dr89 said:


> So if it's around the same price, why would someone NOT buy from that person? And then of course the main difference would be that a dog that didn't work out, would be returned to the breeder (me) and not taken to a shelter.


I don't envy the amount of money, time and stress a breeder must go through to have a litter of pups. Not to mention the time spent finding and training a suitable stud or dam.

Most reputable breeders sell expensive pups because all of that money goes back into the program with little profit.

I know my breeder spent a few thousand on breedings that never took, it's just a loss that she has to deal with.

With that said, I am extremely thankful for the breeders that spend the time, money and deal with all the stress and heartache to breed such wonderful dogs.


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## gsdraven

Dr89 said:


> There's actually an x-factor to this whole thing: What kicked me off to this idea is the fact that central Kentucky is just overflowing with BYB's, and plenty of people willing to support them. Kentucky is in no way a progressive state, and is very uneducated as a whole. The idea is that if I can someday be in a financial situation that allows me to breed quality german shepherds, foster, and rehabilitate gsd's from shelters, I can sell adults (rescued) and puppies (bred by me and/or rescued) at a price that is comparable to the many BYB's around here, I can perhaps manage to "put out" some of the bad breeders by making them irrelevant.


Here's something to think about. While you may be producing better dogs than the BYB, the people down there are still uneducated as to why your dogs are better. I don't know that your plan will actually put BYB out of business but instead just add to the population and perhaps encourage even more people to breed since they now have "better" dogs. While I think the heart is in the right place, I'm not sure that it will work out exactly as you hope it will.

Something you can do now is search for ways to educate the public in your area about the differences between BYB and reputable ones and why one is better than the other.


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## Lilie

Dr89 said:


> So, for the purpose of this thread: let's assume his hips/elbows/and health screening all check out, lets assume he is from german working lines (months of researching has led me to this conclusion but, I will see for sure when we get the papers,) and lastly let's assume he excels and I title him in a couple of things over the next few years.


IMO - even if every person on this forum gave you their opinion of what would be the best lines to breed to - when you begin training and showing you are going to be surrounded by different lines of dogs (and different breeders) and you will begin to form your own opinion of what lines you are attracted to and feel would compliment your dog's blood lines the best.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Lilie said:


> IMO - even if every person on this forum gave you their opinion of what would be the best lines to breed to - when you begin training and showing you are going to be surrounded by different lines of dogs (and different breeders) and you will begin to form your own opinion of what lines you are attracted to and feel would compliment your dog's blood lines the best.


I think that couldn't be said any better. You'll be able to talk to other people and just keep learning learning learning from their background and experience to start adding to YOURS!


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## Andaka

Ffirst and foremost, good breeders start with the best bitch they can buy, not the male that they have. then you can breed her to the best male that will compliment her strengths and improve on her weaknesses.

So my suggestion to you would be to learn all you can in the next few years with the dog you have (training, bloodlines, etc.) so that when you are financially ready, you will have the knowledge base to start right.


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## Samba

Who bred your dog? Are they a possible mentor for you?


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## rvadog

Have to say I disagree with the above poster. While many breeders start with a great bitch I know many breeders start with a phenomenal dog. The truth of the matter is that although a good bitch is invaluable she will never have the impact on the breed as a good (or bad) stud can. Remember that a bitch can only be bred (and thus pass her genetics) once a year whereas a stud can produce 50+ litters a year. There is nothing wrong with starting with a strong dog and buying bitches that compliment him.

That said I think the OP has a long way to go before he's there. Read here, research, talk to (what I mean is listen) as many breeders as possible. The questions you are asking are highlight a lack of basic knowledge in breeding theory.

Just so you know OP, you can have the best dog of one line and breed the best dog to another line and produce a litter of crappers. Dogs have to compliment each other.


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## W.Oliver

rvadog said:


> Have to say I disagree with the above poster. While many breeders start with a great bitch I know many breeders start with a phenomenal dog. The truth of the matter is that although a good bitch is invaluable she will never have the impact on the breed as a good (or bad) stud can. Remember that a bitch can only be bred (and thus pass her genetics) once a year whereas a stud can produce 50+ litters a year. There is nothing wrong with starting with a strong dog and buying bitches that compliment him.


With respect to Andaka's comment, I would say an excellent male (world class) can have an impact on the "breed", but Daphne's point is in regards to a foundation bitch and establishing a kennel. Those are two different discussions in my view......and if I ever suffered a closed head injury where I woke-up with the desire to start a kennel, it would most certainly be with an outstanding female.


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## selzer

If you are planning on buying a started/adult bitch, than I do not see any problem with beginning with a dog pup. 

I disagree with doing pre-lims. They do nothing for you, except they may discourage you if they do not come out the way you want them to, then you may give up schutzhund etc, if hips or elbows do not look awesome at 12 months. Whatever. Personally, I would not want to double the x-rays and anesthetic. You can do the x-rays at two and get ofa certified, unless the dog has a problem that you are seeing.

NONE of us can tell you what to look for in a mate at this time in the game. Your pup is 5.5 months old. He does not have his adult conformation, temperament, drives, ability yet. So all you could really do is a possible pairing on bloodlines and pedigree. And as that is not here, we cannot even say what dogs you might want to stay away from. (I am not into working lines, so I would not know.)

Anyhow, there is NO reason on earth not to start thinking and learning about the whole nine yard NOW. Waiting until the dog has a Schutzhund 1 to START thinking about it??? Well, I think you should read everything you can get your hands on NOW about breeding, genetics, training, german shepherds. At the same time, start studying dogs and their pedigrees. 

You will be two years ahead of the game when your dog is ready to be bred.


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## selzer

The male female thing. I think that it makes more sense to get the female already as an adult. If your male turns out, or not, ok, you had a good time, training and titling him anyways, you can ALWAYS find a good stud dog and pay a stud fee. 

But females, starting with a puppy is a huge crap shoot. After two years, hip dysplasia. Next puppy, after two years, still a bit too shy. Next puppy after two years of training etc, and she simply does not get pregnant, or she has a major conformation fault -- grew too big, happy tail, etc. Getting an adult bitch to start your kennel with, breeding her to a dog that best complements her, and then holding back some female puppies to see which one is the best to move forward with makes sense.


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## cliffson1

There is nothing wrong with wanting to talk pedigrees, that's how a lot of us learned. You would have done better by having the pedigree of your dog first and not even talking about breeding your dog so people could stay focused on the pedigree and the lecturing doesn't get started. Once you say you are thinking about breeding, people are going to subject you to all kinds of scrutiny and forget all about you want pedigree infomation. Even if you say you are going to wait until hips and certs you will still get the lectures, Soooo just ask about the pedigree and leave out your breeding plans. PM me your dogs pedigree and I will see if I can help with some pedigree talk and possible lines.


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## Dr89

Thanks so much guys for the VERY helpful input. This has been much more well received than I thought it would be. I was expecting to have to sift through a lot of bashing while looking for the good answers 

And it is totally possible that my dog will not be suitable to breed and that is fine, I'm just looking for a starting point so I thought I'd at least try to get him there and see if it works out, since I already have him. Thanks again guys, so far the input has been what I'm looking for.

I guess the breeding "matches" are based more on an individual basis than I originally thought. Just from what I've read I got the impression that some lines of GSD's just fundamentally do not compliment each other, and I wanted to get a feel for what those mismatches were.


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## Dr89

rvadog said:


> Have to say I disagree with the above poster. While many breeders start with a great bitch I know many breeders start with a phenomenal dog. The truth of the matter is that although a good bitch is invaluable she will never have the impact on the breed as a good (or bad) stud can. Remember that a bitch can only be bred (and thus pass her genetics) once a year whereas a stud can produce 50+ litters a year. There is nothing wrong with starting with a strong dog and buying bitches that compliment him.
> 
> That said I think the OP has a long way to go before he's there. Read here, research, talk to (what I mean is listen) as many breeders as possible. The questions you are asking are highlight a lack of basic knowledge in breeding theory.
> 
> *Just so you know OP, you can have the best dog of one line and breed the best dog to another line and produce a litter of crappers. Dogs have to compliment each other*.


This was what my initial post was getting out, from reading up on it this is one fact that I was aware of, so I wondered what I look for so that I can avoid a litter of "crappers" haha. 

And you're right, I do have a lot to learn...thought this forum would be a great place to start


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## Dr89

unloader said:


> I don't envy the amount of money, time and stress a breeder must go through to have a litter of pups. Not to mention the time spent finding and training a suitable stud or dam.
> 
> Most reputable breeders sell expensive pups because all of that money goes back into the program with little profit.
> 
> I know my breeder spent a few thousand on breedings that never took, it's just a loss that she has to deal with.
> 
> With that said, I am extremely thankful for the breeders that spend the time, money and deal with all the stress and heartache to breed such wonderful dogs.


I wasn't implying that breeder's asking prices weren't completely worth it, I'm simply saying that perhaps if there was a way that one could have the same quality dogs for cheaper, then it might have an impact on the overall condition of the breed.


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## selzer

Dr89 said:


> I wasn't implying that breeder's asking prices weren't completely worth it, I'm simply saying that perhaps if there was a way that one could have the same quality dogs for cheaper, then it might have an impact on the overall condition of the breed.


I think what you will find, selling cheap, will be that your best buyers will not even consider you, and will go elsewhere. You will become known for selling cheap dogs. 

You would think that people with the money could walk away with a dog no questions asked. From a pet store, sure. But the breeders who require the most form their buyers, who ask questions, and really do a number trying to ensure that they are good homes, those are the breeders who are charging a good amount of money for their dogs. 

The less money you ask for a puppy, the less the buyer expects you to require of them. They are doing YOU a favor for buying your dog for the rediculously low price, say four hundred dollars. Some think that is an incredible amount to pay for a puppy, and other think that there must be something wrong with the dogs. Lose, Lose. But you will probably sell out within a week. 

Your better breeders will not befriend you if you are selling cheap dogs. And this is not something to take lightly. You can learn a lot from good, established breeders. And they can get you access to the best stud dogs for your females, but only if they approve of you. They will NOT want you selling pups out of their dog cheaply.

And lastly, the people that take a dog cheap, are often the worst at wanting to blame you when things go wrong, or wanting you to pay for any possible problems. People who pay the money for a well bred dog, seem to understand, that vetting the dog is their responsiblity and no dog is perfect. People who get an awesome deal on a puppy will sometimes be back again and again complaining about one normal puppy thing after another, and complaining about this problem or that. 

If you want to be a breeder, you need to like people, a LOT; but you do not have to sell yourself or your dogs cheap. That will backfire. 

People only planning on breeding one litter, well, they can sell their puppies for whatever they want, no big deal, it is just that litter. They are not looking to build up a reputation. 

I think that the best bet is to sell your dogs for what they are worth.


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## Dr89

selzer said:


> I think what you will find, selling cheap, will be that your best buyers will not even consider you, and will go elsewhere. You will become known for selling cheap dogs.
> 
> You would think that people with the money could walk away with a dog no questions asked. From a pet store, sure. But the breeders who require the most form their buyers, who ask questions, and really do a number trying to ensure that they are good homes, those are the breeders who are charging a good amount of money for their dogs.
> 
> The less money you ask for a puppy, the less the buyer expects you to require of them. They are doing YOU a favor for buying your dog for the rediculously low price, say four hundred dollars. Some think that is an incredible amount to pay for a puppy, and other think that there must be something wrong with the dogs. Lose, Lose. But you will probably sell out within a week.
> 
> Your better breeders will not befriend you if you are selling cheap dogs. And this is not something to take lightly. You can learn a lot from good, established breeders. And they can get you access to the best stud dogs for your females, but only if they approve of you. They will NOT want you selling pups out of their dog cheaply.
> 
> And lastly, the people that take a dog cheap, are often the worst at wanting to blame you when things go wrong, or wanting you to pay for any possible problems. People who pay the money for a well bred dog, seem to understand, that vetting the dog is their responsiblity and no dog is perfect. People who get an awesome deal on a puppy will sometimes be back again and again complaining about one normal puppy thing after another, and complaining about this problem or that.
> 
> If you want to be a breeder, you need to like people, a LOT; but you do not have to sell yourself or your dogs cheap. That will backfire.
> 
> People only planning on breeding one litter, well, they can sell their puppies for whatever they want, no big deal, it is just that litter. They are not looking to build up a reputation.
> 
> I think that the best bet is to sell your dogs for what they are worth.


Good advice, I can see it from that perspective as well and I think there's a lot of stock in what you said. I think you're 100% right in the difference between buyers of $1300 pups and $300 pups. I do wish their was a way to close the gap though so that not so many people were buying messed up puppy mill pups


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## GSDElsa

Dr89 said:


> I guess the breeding "matches" are based more on an individual basis than I originally thought. Just from what I've read I got the impression that some lines of GSD's just fundamentally do not compliment each other, and I wanted to get a feel for what those mismatches were.


But you gave people no starting point. What is your dog? American Show Line? DDR? West German Show Line? Czech? Belgium? West German Working Line?

Then within the specific lines there are famous kennels knowing for producing strong herding dogs. Dogs with strong civil drive. Dogs for sport. Dogs with strong hunt drive. Dogs with extreme angulation. Dogs with bad hips. Dogs with good hips. Dogs with small heads. Dogs with missing teeth. Dogs with strong social aggression. Etc etc etc.

I think just coming on here and essentially saying "tell me about bloodlines" is like sitty down with a molecular biologist and saying "tell me about biology." With a question as vauge as yours, there is really no starting point for people to even go of off because it's almost a neverending subject. 

If you decide you want to post your dogs pedigree publicly, go to pedigree database or some website like that and see what relatives are in there (hopefully all relatives are there for many generations). Start by researching each and every dog in his background and what the good and bad things are that every dog brought to the table. 

Really, the only way you're going to learn is to spend hours and hours on websites looking at breeders and specific dogs. I'm definitely a pedigree newbie, but I've learned a ton in a very short time by going to threads in the Bloodlines and Pedigree section, picking out specific dogs being discussed or specific breedings and going to websited like PDB and reading up on as much as I can. Or find breeders that you admire and are producing dogs similar to what you'd like to produce and pick specific litters that are upcoming and research those. 

As far as your scheme to fix BYBs...you can certainly try any approach! But good dogs are more expensive because they actually cost that much to maintain and title! Most breeders you will talk to are not really making much money...and in the event of small litters with complications, losing a ton. Of course if you ever become ridiculously wealthy and can afford and choose to consistently lose money, go for it. But I think the main problem with BYB's is the education. People don't think they are getting a lesser dog when they go to BYB's. They just get them. Preaching about why your cheap dog is better than the other guy's cheap dog isn't going to mean much because people just don't realize it's important. They'll likely just buy a dog from you just because you're the first person they came across. 

If you're a reputable breeder I think you'll probably find that you are not going to want to sell most of your dogs to the people who are bargain shopping, haggling over price, or simply don't care and just want a dog because you are the first person they found on a google search. Most reputable breeders only want the type of customer that will spent months researching what breeder is the right fit, will save for years if they have to get one of their dogs and have a emergency fund for their care, and will spend years making a good example of their kennel. Not the type of customer who only wants to spend $500 and doesn't really care who they get the dog from...they just don't want to spend more than that.

Then, of course you just get the impulse buyers. I have some very wealthy friends. They were talking about getting a dog on and off for about 6 months. Well, one Sunday morning they decided they wanted a puppy. So they bought the paper, picked the first classified listing that was advertising black lab puppies, and went and bought him.


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## Denali Girl

GSDElsa said:


> Um, well, without knowing his pedigree no one can (or I should say SHOULD) tell you what to breed your dog to.
> 
> As an aside...why on earth did you purchase you dog without knowing his background??? How do you NOT know his pedigree--with or without papers in hand???


 
Yeah, I still want the answer to this question. How can't you not know the dogs background? I skimmed through and it may have been answered but don't you think this is a big part of it? What breeder did you get the dog from? He should have at least told you about his background.


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## onyx'girl

I agree, the lines should be the first thing you look at when researching the breeder before you even think about purchasing.


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## holland

If I was getting another dog the the first thing I would look at would be the dog-


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## novarobin

Dr89 said:


> I wasn't implying that breeder's asking prices weren't completely worth it, I'm simply saying that perhaps if there was a way that one could have the same quality dogs for cheaper, then it might have an impact on the overall condition of the breed.


 
If you want to produce quality dogs, you can't compete with the prices the "bybs" are asking. It simply isn't possible to do all that is required to produce a quality litter and charge $300 a pup, unless you are able to take a loss on every litter. Well, I guess depending on what you consider quality. 

I think someone else may have already touched on it, but another difference between some bybs and good breeders is how easily it is to obtain a dog. Some breeders have thorough screening procedures, others will sell the dog to anyone with money in hand. 
You say you want to put BYBs out of business, but unless you are willing to sell to anyone with the money, no requirements, you won't. 
Some people don't want to be screened. They don't want a contract. They don't want to wait for the litter. They want to pay the money and take the dog now. This is why pet stores are popular.


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## Dr89

GSDElsa said:


> Really, the only way you're going to learn is to spend hours and hours on websites looking at breeders and specific dogs. I'm definitely a pedigree newbie, but I've learned a ton in a very short time by going to threads in the Bloodlines and Pedigree section, picking out specific dogs being discussed or specific breedings and going to websited like PDB and reading up on as much as I can. Or find breeders that you admire and are producing dogs similar to what you'd like to produce and pick specific litters that are upcoming and research those.


Is there like a FAQ section on here that explains in more beginner terms how to "read" pedigrees? I come across them all the time when I'm bookmarking breeders I like but there's sooo many abbreviations, numbers, etc. Just from reading them I've picked up on some meanings but, I can't find like a "quick reference" kind of thing to help me out.


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## GSDElsa

Here are a few websites with abbreviations I just found in a google search that might be of benefit to you:

Working Dog Titles

Leerburg | The Bundessieger Prufung (BSP "titles" with dog names)

German Shepherd Dog abbreviations, Definitions, and German terms | How to read German pedigree


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## Dr89

Denali Girl said:


> Yeah, I still want the answer to this question. How can't you not know the dogs background? I skimmed through and it may have been answered but don't you think this is a big part of it? What breeder did you get the dog from? He should have at least told you about his background.


Yes I did respond to this: "And as for the second part, when I bought the pup I didn't even know there was a such thing as a reputable breeder vs. a byb"

So I guess you kinda had to read between the lines but, essentially he's not from any notable breeder. If there's a clear cut line between a good breeder and a byb, then they'd be on the fence.


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## GSDElsa

Dr89 said:


> Yes I did respond to this: "And as for the second part, when I bought the pup I didn't even know there was a such thing as a reputable breeder vs. a byb"
> 
> So I guess you kinda had to read between the lines but, essentially he's not from any notable breeder. If there's a clear cut line between a good breeder and a byb, then they'd be on the fence.


I would talk at length with people like Cliff (who are extremely knowledgable on bloodlines) about your dog's background once have the pedigree in hand to determine if there is anything there that would raise red flags in breeding. Realize if your dog came from a BYB there is a chance that your dog may not have the best background for breeding. If that is the case, use this dog as a stepping stone to learn as much as you can about the breed and training and then in a few years carefully select some good foundation dogs.


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## Lucy Dog

At the very least, do you know if your puppy's sire and dam have been OFA'd? Do you know what their rating are?

Without those hip scores and the hip scores of all of the other dogs in your puppy's pedigree, it's going to be very difficult for any reputable breeder to want to use your male as a stud dog. 

Someone looking for a puppy from a reputable breeder is not only going to want to see ofa'd or A stamped parents, but they are also going to want to see it in all the dogs in the puppy's pedigree. I know that's something that I would need to see in a potential puppy.


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## Dr89

GSDElsa thanks for the links. 

Hopefully I'll have more information on him soon.


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## selzer

Get that puppy in training now, or just after the new year. Get out there, do classes, get in a breed club, work toward a title. Work toward several. Love the pup. 

If two years from now, you know a whole lot more and decide that he is or isn't breedworthy, all that training and networking with dog people is not lost. You need to know that stuff to be a good breeder. It does not matter if your dog is breedworthy or not. When you get your bitch (much more important to your overall breeding program) you can pay a stud fee, and get the best possible match for her. 

It is very likely that the dog you bought does not have outstanding bloodlines, or what you want to produce in your final dog. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack and finding it after moving your first hand full of hay. It would be a disservice to breed your dog to an awesome bitch, rather than pay $800 for a stud fee for a similarly qualified dog (to the bitch) with the health background, lines, and pedigree.

We love our pets. And sometimes we cannot see any negatives in them. Sometimes we want to make another just like him. But if you are serious, you will only do this if your boy's structure, temperament, and pedigree is what you are looking to become known for. 

Good luck.


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## AbbyK9

> I don't know his lines because I have not yet received his papers in the mail.


You do not need to wait to receive your puppy's papers in the mail in order to know his lines. All you need are the registered names of his parents and/or the breeder's kennel name.

It sounds to me like your breeder possibly ripped you off if you are "waiting for papers in the mail". What age was your puppy when you bought him? I sure hope it wasn't 8 weeks old and you've been waiting for "papers" all this time. If that's the case, I probably wouldn't be holding my breath to get the papers.

Do you know your breeder's kennel name? That would give us a starting point to see what dogs he is breeding and what lines his breeding stock are from. Does he have a website with information?


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## cliffson1

Call your breeder about the status of the papers. If the litter was bred in Europe it is not unreasonable for you to not have the papers yet. At five months you should know where they are...not saying the dog isn't papered as I have sold pups at 8 weeks and the papers weren't in, but you should have a plausible explanation. Often today people breed litters and haven't DNA'd one of the parents and the papers will be held up until that is done. Good Luck!


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## Dr89

selzer said:


> Get that puppy in training now, or just after the new year. Get out there, do classes, get in a breed club, work toward a title. Work toward several. Love the pup.
> 
> If two years from now, you know a whole lot more and decide that he is or isn't breedworthy, all that training and networking with dog people is not lost. You need to know that stuff to be a good breeder. It does not matter if your dog is breedworthy or not. When you get your bitch (much more important to your overall breeding program) you can pay a stud fee, and get the best possible match for her.
> 
> It is very likely that the dog you bought does not have outstanding bloodlines, or what you want to produce in your final dog. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack and finding it after moving your first hand full of hay. It would be a disservice to breed your dog to an awesome bitch, rather than pay $800 for a stud fee for a similarly qualified dog (to the bitch) with the health background, lines, and pedigree.
> 
> We love our pets. And sometimes we cannot see any negatives in them. Sometimes we want to make another just like him. But if you are serious, you will only do this if your boy's structure, temperament, and pedigree is what you are looking to become known for.
> 
> Good luck.


This is well put Selzer, and you've been very helpful and knowledgeable throughout this thread and I appreciate it. I agree in the unlikeliness of his breeding ability, but I'll have to wait until he's grown and we're through some training before I can find out for sure. But from what I've read he does seem to be conforming to standards above what I would have expected.


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## Dr89

AbbyK9 said:


> You do not need to wait to receive your puppy's papers in the mail in order to know his lines. All you need are the registered names of his parents and/or the breeder's kennel name.
> 
> It sounds to me like your breeder possibly ripped you off if you are "waiting for papers in the mail". What age was your puppy when you bought him? I sure hope it wasn't 8 weeks old and you've been waiting for "papers" all this time. If that's the case, I probably wouldn't be holding my breath to get the papers.
> 
> Do you know your breeder's kennel name? That would give us a starting point to see what dogs he is breeding and what lines his breeding stock are from. Does he have a website with information?


I was offered paper's originally but had no plans for breeding or showing the pup so I didn't go pick them up when I could have. I've contacted them recently to send out for them again so, should have them soon.

As the pup is matured, and as I've spent hours on here reading and learning it seems I may have found a diamond in the rough. So I'm just going to see what happens, watch him, try to find his strengths and weaknesses, keeping my options open.


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## AbbyK9

Of course, if you simply told us the breeder's kennel name, or maybe the name of the dam and sire (or just one of the two), people here could actually tell you what lines are in your puppy's background. Several people have asked you who the breeder is and who the dam/sire is now, and you're just ignoring their question. How are any of us supposed to give you information if you provide nothing?

You could even post some nice photos ... of the dog standing, taken level with the dog ... which would give folks here an idea what lines he may be from.


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## Dr89

AbbyK9 said:


> Of course, if you simply told us the breeder's kennel name, or maybe the name of the dam and sire (or just one of the two), people here could actually tell you what lines are in your puppy's background. Several people have asked you who the breeder is and who the dam/sire is now, and you're just ignoring their question. How are any of us supposed to give you information if you provide nothing?
> 
> You could even post some nice photos ... of the dog standing, taken level with the dog ... which would give folks here an idea what lines he may be from.


Oh sorry didn't mean to be avoiding the question, of course I'd like to provide all the helping information I can! However, the couple I bought the dog from was an older couple and not technologically advanced 

They were not what I would call a BYB in a lot of respects, as they did keep back females from their own litters to continue on a certain path, they kept a male as well to begin a new line. They paid stud fees for their bitches (I'm going to call them as soon as I can to find out more about the sire) and they only have one litter a year. They also gave me the vet name and records from the time the pup was born until I picked him up, kept blankets in the pups sleeping area to send home. Where they lacked unfortunately was the most important aspects: ofa's, dna screening, and as far as I know pedigree info. But I should know that stuff for sure shortly. I got the impression they had been doing this since before certain things became so popular. Their dogs are really impressive, both their bitches and the male (my dogs brother from a previous litter) were very attentive and nice overall specimens. 

That being said, I'm extremely happy with Rambo and I have really high hopes for him! But if I knew then what I knew then, I would have been more leery about the breeder. But what's done is done and he has been a blessing.


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## Denali Girl

Dr89 said:


> Oh sorry didn't mean to be avoiding the question, of course I'd like to provide all the helping information I can! However, the couple I bought the dog from was an older couple and not technologically advanced
> 
> They were not what I would call a BYB in a lot of respects, as they did keep back females from their own litters to continue on a certain path, they kept a male as well to begin a new line. They paid stud fees for their bitches (I'm going to call them as soon as I can to find out more about the sire) and they only have one litter a year. They also gave me the vet name and records from the time the pup was born until I picked him up, kept blankets in the pups sleeping area to send home. Where they lacked unfortunately was the most important aspects: ofa's, dna screening, and as far as I know pedigree info. But I should know that stuff for sure shortly. I got the impression they had been doing this since before certain things became so popular. Their dogs are really impressive, both their bitches and the male (my dogs brother from a previous litter) were very attentive and nice overall specimens.
> 
> That being said, I'm extremely happy with Rambo and I have really high hopes for him! But if I knew then what I knew then, I would have been more leery about the breeder. But what's done is done and he has been a blessing.


 
I am not trying to come off as an arsehole or sarcastic but in reality , this is not a breeder. From what you have said above a true breeder would have told you about pedigrees. IMO even if these older non computer savy people had good intentions in mind, I think they lack the knowledge of breeding and in turn is hurting the breed as a whole. Sure they can be the nicest people on the face of the earth but that does nothing to help the breed. Again I don't mean to upset you and I am just trying to add the importance of doing your homework before you buy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Since you are looking at all of this down the road, I would like to offer a suggestion - and can do some research for you if you are interested - volunteer for GSD rescue (talk about diamonds in the rough) and learn the pitfalls and perils up close, hone your behavioral skills, find what to look for, what you like, learn about the health problems, even foster a litter, while working with your boy. You learn, dogs get saved, win-win.


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## Dr89

Denali Girl said:


> I am not trying to come off as an arsehole or sarcastic but in reality , this is not a breeder. From what you have said above a true breeder would have told you about pedigrees. IMO even if these older non computer savy people had good intentions in mind, I think they lack the knowledge of breeding and in turn is hurting the breed as a whole. Sure they can be the nicest people on the face of the earth but that does nothing to help the breed. Again I don't mean to upset you and I am just trying to add the importance of doing your homework before you buy.


No that doesn't upset me at all 

I agree, and I'm well aware of this now. Like I said if i knew then what I know now I would have asked more questions, been more leery. But what's done is done!


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## Castlemaid

Completely off topic, but everytime I see your Avatar it reminds me of this picture of Gryffon at around six months old:









Everyone is giving you good (great!) suggestions: Don't think of Rambo as your breeding dog, think of him as your learning dog. Then be careful not to make breeding decisions based on emotion (I love my dog, I think everyone would love to have a dog like him), and instead have a vision of what a perfect GSD should be (a dog that can do everything!), and work towards learning what characteristics it takes for a dog to be a police dog, a service dog, a therapy dog, a protection dog, a tracking dog, a herding dog, a top obedience dog, and a loved family friend.


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## cliffson1

Dr89,
Get the papers and send me an email....You have people on this forum judging whether a person is a good breeder or not, or helping/hurting the breed and don't have clue about breeding. I would feel more comfortable with an older breeder who has done this over years, isn't breeding for show, and has the dogs on site for you to see. I don't see the concern or negativity about your breeder at this point. I think when you get the papers; things can be sorted out. I like the fact that this is a longtime breeder that has dogs that are impressive when you saw them. They sound like they may be oldtimers like myself, and contrary to some of the "experts" on this forum that may not be a bad thing. You are receiving some good advice on what to do with your puppy right now so follow this, as for what kind of dog you have or what kind of breeder you got him from, I wouldn't worry about that at this time and don't let some of the asinine suppositions from this forum worry you. Good Luck


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## Denali Girl

cliffson1 said:


> Dr89,
> Get the papers and send me an email....You have people on this forum judging whether a person is a good breeder or not, or helping/hurting the breed and don't have clue about breeding. I would feel more comfortable with an older breeder who has done this over years, isn't breeding for show, and has the dogs on site for you to see. I don't see the concern or negativity about your breeder at this point. I think when you get the papers; things can be sorted out. I like the fact that this is a longtime breeder that has dogs that are impressive when you saw them. They sound like they may be oldtimers like myself, and contrary to some of the "experts" on this forum that may not be a bad thing. You are receiving some good advice on what to do with your puppy right now so follow this, as for what kind of dog you have or what kind of breeder you got him from, I wouldn't worry about that at this time and don't let some of the asinine suppositions from this forum worry you. Good Luck


LMAO, I am going to keep my remarks to myself on this one but I am sure the "experts" will set you straight on this one there old timer. Oh I will say one thing though.......Just because you have done something for many years, doesn't make it right.


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## Myamom

"Where they lacked unfortunately was the most important aspects: ofa's, dna screening, and as far as I know pedigree info."

So..I have a question since I'm not into breeding. If this pup say...went on to be titled...had good OFA scores...etc...would he be breeding material if his background is unknown i.e. no health testing of parents? 
Would it be a risk...because there could be health issues in his background even if they aren't showing up in him? 
Just curious how all this works...thanks


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## cliffson1

lMao, Just because somebody has done something for long time doesn't make them right....I agree with you wholeheartedly on that statement. So Denali girl maybe you can help an oldtimer like myself....I saw no where in DR89's posts where I could tell that the breeders lacked knowledge or having not seen the pup or the lines ascertain how the breeding was"hurting the breed as a whole". If you can show me how you drew these conclusions from the limited information we have from OP, I am sure it would help myself and many others be able to recognize "true breeders" early on...TIA.


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## Emoore

Cliffson1, to me the thing that stood out in DR89's post that suggested that his breeders may be less than stellar was the fact that they don't screen hips or elbows.


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## cliffson1

LOL, getting old is really rough on me....I read this topic and I couldn't find where it says that the breeders don't screen hips and elbows. (Your eyes go when you get old as well as your mind)...Take me for instance...when ALL my dogs get a year old I have their hips and elbows radiographed. I might send them into OFA and I might not, but between Dr. Rebbecci (Univ of Penn grad), and myself I consider the dog screened for those elements. Now the internet wizards might not be able to go to OFA and see the results, but I have them on disc for any buyer to see or take to their expert of choice. My point is the actual knowledge of the hips and elbows is what you are breeding, not the certification. I don't know if these breeders x-rayed their dogs or not...I hope they did for actual correct knowlege, but I also won't assume they don't have this information. Again, I am not a commercial breeder who may feel compelled to have the certs for business purposes, but commercial breeders certainly don't have the only way to do things. I guess what I am saying is, at the end of the day, none of our opinions are as meaningful as the results we produce.


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## Denali Girl

cliffson1 said:


> lMao, Just because somebody has done something for long time doesn't make them right....I agree with you wholeheartedly on that statement. So Denali girl maybe you can help an oldtimer like myself....I saw no where in DR89's posts where I could tell that the breeders lacked knowledge or having not seen the pup or the lines ascertain how the breeding was"hurting the breed as a whole". If you can show me how you drew these conclusions from the limited information we have from OP, I am sure it would help myself and many others be able to recognize "true breeders" early on...TIA.


Well I was going by the statement he made that he knew nothing about the dog or the dogs history, is that not enough? The dog "looked" good? What is that? I IMO wouldn't but a dog because he looked good but that's just me, I'm crazy like that. I would like to go back right then and there and check the dogs history, what was the father, who was the mother, things like that. Sorry if I offended you.


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## Denali Girl

cliffson1 said:


> LOL, getting old is really rough on me....I read this topic and I couldn't find where it says that the breeders don't screen hips and elbows. (Your eyes go when you get old as well as your mind)...Take me for instance...when ALL my dogs get a year old I have their hips and elbows radiographed. I might send them into OFA and I might not, but between Dr. Rebbecci (Univ of Penn grad), and myself I consider the dog screened for those elements. Now the internet wizards might not be able to go to OFA and see the results, but I have them on disc for any buyer to see or take to their expert of choice. My point is the actual knowledge of the hips and elbows is what you are breeding, not the certification. I don't know if these breeders x-rayed their dogs or not...I hope they did for actual correct knowlege, but I also won't assume they don't have this information. Again, I am not a commercial breeder who may feel compelled to have the certs for business purposes, but commercial breeders certainly don't have the only way to do things. I guess what I am saying is, at the end of the day, none of our opinions are as meaningful as the results we produce.


 
Ok so your not a commercial breeder I see from this post but you still breed. Can I look at your website, check out your kennel name, check out past breedings? All your looking for is hips and elbows? So your dogs may have good hips and elbows but be an emotional puddle? Can they work? Can you PROVE they can work weather it be from a Schutzhund title or something else? These are the reasons we go to a respectful breeder.


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## Jax08

whew...if/when I am looking for a puppy...I wouldn't hesitate to ask Cliff for advice. Cliff - You've been breeding since 1971? is that correct? how many dogs have you titled?

Just because someone does not have a website, does not make them a disreputable breeder.

edit: training? Not breeding since 71 but have been working with the breed since 71?


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## Denali Girl

I give up, you guys are missing my point.


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## Jax08

I got your point and I'm sure everyone else did as well. It was the combative way you laid it out by attacking Cliff has me a bit thrown. From what I've seen of Cliff, he's probably forgotten more than a lot of people know. 

The OP stated that he was going to trial his dog, and that he was waiting on the papers, that he refused originally. So the point that the OP doesn't know the dogs background isn't relevant. He doesn't know it yet. 

Here is my question... The dog trials and is phenomenal. His conformation is top notch. His xrays come back as good. Do you NOT breed him to pass on his traits because you don't know his parents background?

How many great racehorses came from so-so backgrounds? Same philosophy to me.


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## JakodaCD OA

Maybe we are missing "your" point? 

I also have and would ask Cliff his opinions on dogs, pedigree whatever, cause frankly he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know via the net when it comes to gsd's. If he told me to 'buy' so and so, I would trust his knowledge. 

Maybe it's 'beneath' some, but the truth is, there are some pretty nice gsd's out there that came from 'no names'. Maybe 'you' wouldn't buy them, but that's of course your choice


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## Denali Girl

cliffson1 said:


> Dr89,
> Get the papers and send me an email....You have people on this forum judging whether a person is a good breeder or not, or helping/hurting the breed and don't have clue about breeding. I would feel more comfortable with an older breeder who has done this over years, isn't breeding for show, and has the dogs on site for you to see. I don't see the concern or negativity about your breeder at this point. I think when you get the papers; things can be sorted out. I like the fact that this is a longtime breeder that has dogs that are impressive when you saw them. They sound like they may be oldtimers like myself, and contrary to some of the "experts" on this forum that may not be a bad thing. You are receiving some good advice on what to do with your puppy right now so follow this, as for what kind of dog you have or what kind of breeder you got him from, I wouldn't worry about that at this time and don't let some of the asinine suppositions from this forum worry you. Good Luck


 
This is what I answered Jax, I wasn't attacking Clif. There are a lot of people on here that have a clue about breeding and their not asinine. I will be the first to tell you that I am in no way a breeder but I will tell you what I want in a breeder and what I think you should look for. If you want a full background on what I have done, PM me and I will give you a list.


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## Denali Girl

JakodaCD OA said:


> Maybe we are missing "your" point?
> 
> I also have and would ask Cliff his opinions on dogs, pedigree whatever, cause frankly he is one of the most knowledgeable people I know via the net when it comes to gsd's. If he told me to 'buy' so and so, I would trust his knowledge.
> 
> Maybe it's 'beneath' some, but the truth is, there are some pretty nice gsd's out there that came from 'no names'. Maybe 'you' wouldn't buy them, but that's of course your choice


I totally understand that there are good dogs that come from no names but can you honestly say that breeding that no name is good for the breed as a whole? Sure that dog may be clear but don't you think you should know his history?


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## Jax08

I am fully aware what you answered. Your tone and phrasing in your reply definitely sounded like you were attacking Cliff. I would have to say I'm not the only one that thought so.

I don't need a background check on you. I don't really care what you've done. It's your tone to Cliff that has me a bit confused. 

And really...since you asked Cliff for all his credentials, that he's happily provided more than once, please feel free to tell everyone what you've done and not just one person in a PM. If it's good for the gander...

And regarding my question....do you have an answer to that?


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## JakodaCD OA

Sure I think it's history is important, and the OP said, that's what they are doing, getting it's pedigree. 

Unfortunately the cold hard truth is, most breeds have gone down the crapper, there will always be irresponsible people breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred. If this dog went on to get a bunch of titles, ofa'd out excellent , had no health problems, excellent temperament, there would be buyers for those puppies. Heck if he had a rotten temperament, flunked ofa, and they were being sold for 200 bucks, there would STILL be buyers. It is what it is. 

I think this OP, is trying to educate themself, and looking for help/opinions, it's more than some do.


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## Denali Girl

Jax08 said:


> I am fully aware what you answered. Your tone and phrasing in your reply definitely sounded like you were attacking Cliff. I would have to say I'm not the only one that thought so.
> 
> I don't need a background check on you. I don't really care what you've done. It's your tone to Cliff that has me a bit confused.
> 
> And really...since you asked Cliff for all his credentials, that he's happily provided more than once, please feel free to tell everyone what you've done and not just one person in a PM. If it's good for the gander...
> 
> And regarding my question....do you have an answer to that?


Jax.....I didn't attack him or ask for credentials nor did he provide them and it's ok realy, I personally don't like being called assinine so sorry if I came off a bit strong. To answer your question, no I wouldn't breed the dog and that's my opinion.


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## Denali Girl

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sure I think it's history is important, and the OP said, that's what they are doing, getting it's pedigree.
> 
> Unfortunately the cold hard truth is, most breeds have gone down the crapper, there will always be irresponsible people breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred. If this dog went on to get a bunch of titles, ofa'd out excellent , had no health problems, excellent temperament, there would be buyers for those puppies. Heck if he had a rotten temperament, flunked ofa, and they were being sold for 200 bucks, there would STILL be buyers. It is what it is.
> 
> I think this OP, is trying to educate themself, and looking for help/opinions, it's more than some do.


 
Jakoda I am talking ONLY for the better of the breed, what should you do....honestly what should you do if you care about the future of the breed? You already said most breeds are going down the crapper and the GSD is a popular breed, look how it has changed already. This is my only point. Clif has more knowledge than I will probably ever have and the only point I am trying to make is that IMO we should breed for the breed standard. Maybe the dogs were better 50 years ago but we have a standard today that we need to go by.


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## Dr89

cliffson1 said:


> Dr89,
> Get the papers and send me an email....You have people on this forum judging whether a person is a good breeder or not, or helping/hurting the breed and don't have clue about breeding. I would feel more comfortable with an older breeder who has done this over years, isn't breeding for show, and has the dogs on site for you to see. I don't see the concern or negativity about your breeder at this point. I think when you get the papers; things can be sorted out. I like the fact that this is a longtime breeder that has dogs that are impressive when you saw them. They sound like they may be oldtimers like myself, and contrary to some of the "experts" on this forum that may not be a bad thing. You are receiving some good advice on what to do with your puppy right now so follow this, as for what kind of dog you have or what kind of breeder you got him from, I wouldn't worry about that at this time and don't let some of the asinine suppositions from this forum worry you. Good Luck


Thanks a lot Cliff, I'll take you up on this, from what I've read on here about you I'm really glad you chimed in :hug:

@ Denali Girl, I'm sorry your opinion is being squashed as you are fully entitled to it. You're right that I did say that I'm not aware of his background--but because I didn't know to ask, and because I didn't get the papers. BUT, I didnt say that the people I got him from don't know his background...so who knows maybe I'll be lucky.

Also, yes I did say they "looked" impressive which doesn't sound very legit...but even after scrolling through this site for hours, researching different breeders, they're dogs STILL stand out to me and really were good examples from my point of view. And I believe that if they've kept two bitches from their own litters, and their moms were from an older litter of theirs, and so on...then it may be inadvertently true that they have good hips?

Another small but good sign--everyone knows in the general public females are more sought after, the litter rambo came from had 7 boys and 2 girl pups, and they kept one of the girls. So, had they just been looking to squabble for money I don't think you would have seen this.


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## Catu

Denali girl, before making blank statements you should spend a litle time reading some old posts from this forum. {then you will find that all you asked about cliff has been answered somewhere, that he doen't have a website and doesn't put his credentials in his signature? Believe me, he is way beyond the point where he needs to demonstrate nothing to anyone. Cliff needs a website as much as he needs an add in the paper to sell his pups, the people who wants the kind of dogs he produces already know where to find him.

You have been around only a month, please do yourself a favor and be just a little less arrogant and educate yourself, then maybe people will take you seriously.


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## cliffson1

Hey folks, 
I think that Denali Girl is right in her quest to want to see good dogs bred. There is no problem with her from my point of view. i also have made many breeding mistakes over the years that I have tried to learn from. 
I just get upset sometimes when people make assumptions about others without enough information to form an educated opinion. I also get upset when people come on here for help and instead get grilled like they committed a feloney. I just wish we could be helpful instead of condeming sometimes. Now there are plenty of people who are helpful and sometimes people are sorely lacking in understanding where they venture on the forum. I just think we can guide them in a better direction, AFTER we have an understanding of their knowledge and basis.
As for the Standard, I don't know what it is anymore.....sorry just me. Is it the typical showline dogs????(Words like courage, noble, incorruptible, are part of the standard....huh???) or is it workinglines??( words like steady, quietly standing it ground, aloof,....Huh)...I don't know what the standard means. I do know what a good German Shepherd should be able to do because it is a utitlity dog by design. I say all this to say; I see the dogs that are primarily KK1( recommended for breeding) and most of them won't stand real stress and work in tough traditional jobs of this breed, I see the dogs that are primarily KK2(suitable for breed), and they are the ones I see defending the country and are assisting our Law Enforcement/Emergency services. Then I hear people saying this thinking is correct German Shepherd thinking when it comes to breeding. I'm just confused these days!!
Hopefully, DR89 has a nice dog that represents what a German Shepherd should be by tradition and legacy.


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## Emoore

Dr89 said:


> Another small but good sign--everyone knows in the general public females are more sought after,


I always thought the males were more sought after? :thinking:


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## Dr89

cliffson1 said:


> Hey folks,
> I think that Denali Girl is right in her quest to want to see good dogs bred. There is no problem with her from my point of view. i also have made many breeding mistakes over the years that I have tried to learn from.
> I just get upset sometimes when people make assumptions about others without enough information to form an educated opinion. I also get upset when people come on here for help and instead get grilled like they committed a feloney. I just wish we could be helpful instead of condeming sometimes. Now there are plenty of people who are helpful and sometimes people are sorely lacking in understanding where they venture on the forum. I just think we can guide them in a better direction, AFTER we have an understanding of their knowledge and basis.
> As for the Standard, I don't know what it is anymore.....sorry just me. Is it the typical showline dogs????(Words like courage, noble, incorruptible, are part of the standard....huh???) or is it workinglines??( words like steady, quietly standing it ground, aloof,....Huh)...I don't know what the standard means. I do know what a good German Shepherd should be able to do because it is a utitlity dog by design. I say all this to say; I see the dogs that are primarily KK1( recommended for breeding) and most of them won't stand real stress and work in tough traditional jobs of this breed, I see the dogs that are primarily KK2(suitable for breed), and they are the ones I see defending the country and are assisting our Law Enforcement/Emergency services. Then I hear people saying this thinking is correct German Shepherd thinking when it comes to breeding. I'm just confused these days!!
> Hopefully, DR89 has a nice dog that represents what a German Shepherd should be by tradition and legacy.


Personally I like your description of the KK2's 

And yes hopefully he is! If not though, he won't be the foundation of any breeding program, just a wonderful and loyal pet, hopefully enjoying the sports. 

I'll pm you Cliff when I have more info on him


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## Dr89

Emoore said:


> I always thought the males were more sought after? :thinking:


Maybe in this ring of owners (meaning--this forum, most of whom are not average dog owners) but growing up, all I've ever heard anyone say is "oh get a girl" or "girls make better pets," or something along those lines. Almost all the family pets I can think of from friends, family, etc, were all girls. It's quite an "urban myth" type phenomena haha


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## GSDElsa

Well hopefully Cliff and OP didn't think my suggestions were too assinine  I WAS trying to be helpful.


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## Denali Girl

Catu said:


> Denali girl, before making blank statements you should spend a litle time reading some old posts from this forum. {then you will find that all you asked about cliff has been answered somewhere, that he doen't have a website and doesn't put his credentials in his signature? Believe me, he is way beyond the point where he needs to demonstrate nothing to anyone. Cliff needs a website as much as he needs an add in the paper to sell his pups, the people who wants the kind of dogs he produces already know where to find him.
> 
> You have been around only a month, please do yourself a favor and be just a little less arrogant and educate yourself, then maybe people will take you seriously.


What? Your taking my expierience from when I regestered on this site?


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## Rei

Denali Girl said:


> What? Your taking my expierience from when I regestered on this site?


No, she isn't. She's referring to the way you questioned Cliff, I believe. I think it is a given for members who have been on this forum longer that Cliff's wealth of information surpasses many breeders' combined. Being relatively new to the forum, you would likely not have known that. 

I think she is just trying to tell you to not be so quick to jump to conclusions when you do not even know the person you're talking to (or talking about). Which was exactly Cliff's point in talking about the breeder the OP got the dog from, the breeder who is being labeled so quickly by the forum members as a "backyard breeder". 

There were some implications in the post you made, that if Cliff did not have a website or so called credentials or Schutzhund titled dogs that he must be a breeder who didn't know what he was doing, a "backyard breeder" by your standards. The truth of it is, is that if you had taken the time to read his other posts or find out more about the experience and weight behind his statements, you would have found out the answers to all your questions and more, and there would be no need for accusations or labeling or such immediate suspicion. 

Likewise, Cliff is trying to prove the same point by stating that he saw nothing to indicate the OP's breeder's lack of responsibility, and he must be wondering why a group of people who do not know so much as the kennel name, much less the breeder and his/her dogs themselves, would be so quick to judge this person's breeding ethics and the quality of the dogs they produce. I know everyone's intentions were good, but we are often too quick to jump to conclusions, which spreads a great deal of misinformation. 

Just how I saw it.


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## Jax08

never mind...Rei answered what I was going to say.


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## Castlemaid

Dr89 said:


> Maybe in this ring of owners (meaning--this forum, most of whom are not average dog owners) but growing up, all I've ever heard anyone say is "oh get a girl" or "girls make better pets," or something along those lines. Almost all the family pets I can think of from friends, family, etc, were all girls. It's quite an "urban myth" type phenomena haha


I think you are right about that. I remember hearing the same thing all the time: Females are easier to train, and won't challenge you, males are more independent and don't take direction as well. I believed it at the time, and obviously so did the majority of average pet-owner folks.

But since I've been around working dog people and sport dog people, then the opposite is true: most everyone values the males over the females, for right or for wrong, it is what people prefer.


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## holland

Uh huh...but there is a serious problem when your breeding program has only males-and you don't have to be an experienced dog person to understand that (hopefully)


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## Catu

Thanks Rei, exactly my point.


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## selzer

Dr89, If you ever become a breeder, you will find that when you have a litter of six females and 1 male, EVERYONE will want males; months later when you have a litter of four females and six males, EVERYONE will want females. Both males and females are sought after.

Would you take an awesome dog, excellent temperament, proven working ability, ofa - normal on everything, within the standard, and excellent companion, and pitch this dog out of your breeding program because the parents of this dog were questionmarks when it came to hip and elbow scores? 

Well, would you breed a dog that ranked lower in working ability or temperament or was outside of the standard, but whose sire and dam had the required ofa ratings? 

I have seen people with a long list of must haves, look for the perfect puppy, become discouraged, and buy a dog that had far fewer of their must haves than pups they had turned down. 

I think you have to have balance. Look at the whole dog, health background is a part of that, pedigree is a part of that. But these are only a part of the whole pie. 

I think that if you took every dog who had a sire or dam, grand sire or grand dam, sibling, or offspring with HD or ED, or a grand sire or grand dam, sire or dam with unknown hip or elbow ratings, and knocked it completely out of any breeding program, in a few short years, our breed might be suffering from far worse things due to a seriously reduced overall gene pool.


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## Dr89

selzer said:


> Dr89, If you ever become a breeder, you will find that when you have a litter of six females and 1 male, EVERYONE will want males; months later when you have a litter of four females and six males, EVERYONE will want females. Both males and females are sought after.
> 
> *Would you take an awesome dog, excellent temperament, proven working ability, ofa - normal on everything, within the standard, and excellent companion, and pitch this dog out of your breeding program because the parents of this dog were questionmarks when it came to hip and elbow scores?
> 
> Well, would you breed a dog that ranked lower in working ability or temperament or was outside of the standard, but whose sire and dam had the required ofa ratings? *
> 
> I have seen people with a long list of must haves, look for the perfect puppy, become discouraged, and buy a dog that had far fewer of their must haves than pups they had turned down.
> 
> I think you have to have balance. Look at the whole dog, health background is a part of that, pedigree is a part of that. But these are only a part of the whole pie.
> 
> I think that if you took every dog who had a sire or dam, grand sire or grand dam, sibling, or offspring with HD or ED, or a grand sire or grand dam, sire or dam with unknown hip or elbow ratings, and knocked it completely out of any breeding program, in a few short years, our breed might be suffering from far worse things due to a seriously reduced overall gene pool.


That's a GREAT point, I think in my case I have a lot of time, and a lot of learning, and really only time will tell when it comes to my current boy. I have a feeling he's going to do really well when we start training (January 11th ) but then again, I could be completely let down. I'll know soon enough, and the place I'm going for schutzhund is not only a training facility, but breeds working czech gsd's, and takes in rescues and rehabilitates them. So hopefully once I get to know them they'll be a wealth of knowledge for me.


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## martemchik

Be very cautious about what they tell you, places that breed and train are sometimes very in love with their dogs and very quick to judge any dog not from their lines. They will probably try to discourage any breeding, partially because they don't know where your dog came from and partially because you would become their competitor. I got a dog from pretty much the same situation as you, although I do know what lines he comes from and so far have gotten a lot of temperment compliments from a GSD club that trains and breeds many of their own dogs. When we first started going there I could tell there was a little resentment and dislike towards my pup, and more than a few people questioned where I got him from, but as soon as they hear its a breeder they kind of quiet down, partially because he's a very good dog, in some cases better than the ones next to him in class, and partially because they know there are much more reputable breeders in the area from who I could've gotten him (which I didn't). He's not a BYB dog, and he's not from champion lines, but I'm perfectly fine with that.

Good luck with your future dreams, but personally I believe that no matter how much we can hope for only reputable breeders there will always be BYB because of the market. Too many people that want family pets and don't care about champions or titles, just the price.


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## Chicagocanine

I was under the impression that most breeders choose a good breeding female and look for males that match well with her and pay a stud fee for breeding with them, rather than buying a male and female as a sort of "breeding pair"?


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