# Schutzhund Puppy Structure



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I hope this is the correct place to ask this. I am new to the sport, and am just now looking for a pup prospect for it. I have found a potential breeder whose breedings lines are strong, who is reasonable, and who is experienced. Since money has not yet changed hands with trainer I am planning on using, he will likely not be willing to come with me to choose my puppy. The breeder is expressed great interest in making sure I get a good pup from him if I choose him, specifically because he knows the trainer I am going to work with, and wants to send a good dog his way. However, he does not want full responsibility for choosing my pup, but instead only says he will give his observations to me. He gave me homework. 

I know the theory behind picking a good temperament with pups, and have found a lot of information on tests you can do, and attributes to look for. However, I cannot find any information on what do look for structurally in a puppy? Other than seeing the parents and their x-rays and certifications, is there any information out there on how to tell if a puppy has sound structure? I know to look for over-angulation in their backs, but is there anything else? 

Thanks!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Working lines should not have an over-angulation in the back. And many people look at a stacked photo and misinterpret the angle of the back. 

If the breeder is following SV requirements then they probably have a breed survey done, or you can look thru previous generations.

When you look the pedigree up, look for G, SG, V ratings in front of the dogs name. G is good, SG= very good, V=excellent. these ratings also depend on how well the dog is trained. The judge told me my male would V with better training. But also told me that my female would probably only ever get a G because of a loose pastern that is throwing off her gait and could affect her soundness at some point later in her career. 

Breeders are not going to show you xrays. Would you know what you're looking for if they did? You do need to see the certifications. OFA or SV or Pennhip. DM testing. Clear/Carrier are ok. You do not want a breeding of Carrier to Carrier or a parent who is "affected". 

A good breeder will choose your puppy for you because they know the puppies best at that age and they should be able to identify the traits in the puppies based on what the person is asking for, especially for a new person. No reason for a trainer to come. I never knew what puppy I was getting until I was picking them up. I would question your choice of breeder since he doesn't want to do that.


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Working lines should not have an over-angulation in the back. And many people look at a stacked photo and misinterpret the angle of the back.
> 
> If the breeder is following SV requirements then they probably have a breed survey done, or you can look thru previous generations.
> 
> ...


I met with the breeder again today. The paperwork for the sire and dam have excellent ratings for hips, normal for elbows. I've looked at the grandparents as well during my own research and they have shown good ratings. They both come from lines who have good backgrounds in IPO. He said he would emphasize a specific pup if he thinks it is the one I should choose, but that he has had people come back and blame him if the pup didn't grow into the dog they thought, so he would prefer I made the final decision.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The breeder I would say has been the most successful as far as producing schutzhund dogs once said he didn’t know anything about structure and that he couldn’t tell you what correct angulation is.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> I met with the breeder again today. The paperwork for the sire and dam have excellent ratings for hips, normal for elbows. I've looked at the grandparents as well during my own research and they have shown good ratings. They both come from lines who have good backgrounds in IPO. He said he would emphasize a specific pup if he thinks it is the one I should choose, but that he has had people come back and blame him if the pup didn't grow into the dog they thought, so he would prefer I made the final decision.


.
I would get on OFA and look at siblings, offspring of siblings, any previous offspring, and research the lines. What about DM? Has the pair been tested?


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

"lines who have good backgrounds in IPO"

What about the actual dogs that have been bred? Are they titled?


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> "lines who have good backgrounds in IPO"
> 
> What about the actual dogs that have been bred? Are they titled?


The mother isn't IPO, she is the breeder's dog. He does have both OFA and AKC paperwork for her health, and before she was pregnant she did run the A frame and the rest of the course, just not in competition. However, both of the mother's parents are IPO3, one of them is nationally ranked. She has litter mates as well who are at various levels. The sire has IPO3. It is the mother's first litter so nothing about the dog's she has produced. I'm happy with the breeder, I'm not sure what to look for beyond temperament when it comes to picking a puppy later on. Or is temperament really the only thing I need to worry about as long as the lineages are healthy?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> The mother isn't IPO, she is the breeder's dog and he did not want to put the time and money into titling her


I'm sorry, I sincerely hope you are happy with your new pup, but this is one of the worst statements I've read recently!
He did not want to spend time or money proving her breed worthiness, but I bet he was willing to take money for her pups.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm surprised he has full registration on the female. Most breeders sell on limited until to dog is titled.

I hope you get the puppy you are expecting. I would walk away.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Just out of curiosity, how much are you paying fir this dog? You can pm me about it if you want.


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I'm surprised he has full registration on the female. Most breeders sell on limited until to dog is titled.


To be honest I could be wrong on the female, maybe she has IPO1. Whatever it is, it isn't enough nor important enough to him to make a deal out of it beyond that she was allowed to breed with the sire by the owner of the sire. He very well mentioned it and during the length of the conversation but I can't seem to recall it. Probably should ask again. I know I am not explaining this stuff well. I'm new to it all so I know it is sounding worse than it is. He has good references though. By good references I mean the people he associates with, the people who provided the other dogs. By good I mean all titled, involved running a club that I've visited and seen results from. The breeder used to compete in schutzhund and bred dogs regularly for it for 20+ years and they did well. I spent a lot of time tracking the lineages before contacting him. He retired and is a small time breeder now. My post was not to question him. I've vetted enough people and seen enough facilities to figure out the basics on who to avoid. My post is mainly to try and figure out what to look for when it comes to the pups being ready to head home. I know he will help me out but I still want to go into it knowing as much as I can since the final "yes" and "no" is on me.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey. You do you. 

You came here to ask questions and get opinions. We just gave them.


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Hey. You do you.
> 
> You came here to ask questions and get opinions. We just gave them.


I know. I did not expect so many people to go straight to walking away after a few comments badly explained by me. I don't want to steer anyone wrong. I like the breeder. I don't want false info spread on him so I am afraid I might have explained too badly. 

It does seem as if you all agree that as long as he is a solid, trustworthy breeder and has good lines, I should not worry too much about the structure of the puppies. More so their temperaments.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the breeder should be familiar with and guide you as far as _temperament _and drives....as a newbie, you’ll likely just be chiming in on _personality_. they’re different. structure is another area where, outside of very obvious flaws, you should be able to rely on the breeders expertise.

if the breeder and trainer are associates... i don’t see a problem with asking the trainer to check out the litter with you. maybe i’m misunderstanding the money exchange part? perhaps offer to pay him his hourly rate. have you asked?


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent (Dec 1, 2016)

I think you are not actually listening to the posts being written if that was your conclusions after this thread.....


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't believe that anyone told you not to worry about structure. We told you to check OFA or SV and research the line for orthopedic issues and to make sure the pair had been tested for DM AND to verify that the pairing was either clear/clear or clear/carrier but NOT carrier/carrier or affected. I'm sure I told you to look at the conformation ratings in front of the dog's names to see what their structure was rated at

You aren't just looking for temperament. You are looking for a combination of drives and temperament. Food drive, prey drive, is the puppy forward and confident, some puppies at 8 weeks have grip showing already...will the puppies latch on to something and grip or do they have no interest? Who is showing possession,, who has hunt drive, do any bring toys back to you, how are they walking across odd things.....all of this is why the breeder should be picking the puppy.

And sorry..not sorry...if the breeder can't be bothered with training and titling the female, just because he's been in ScH for years, he should not be breeding. There was just a huge argument on a well known breeder on here not long ago where I said the same thing. Quality control is quality control. I don't care who you are or what your experience is. 

I would hope nobody excusing that well know breeder is hypocritical enough to dis this breeder on this thread for the exact same thing just because they don't "know" him. 

You keep talking about the dogs have a good pedigree - how would you know as a newbie? Is someone guiding you? Because you don't know about drives, temperament and structure. Individual pedigrees look good but how do the dogs compliment each other? This guy might be a good breeder and a good competitor. But just putting two dogs with national rankings together doesn't mean the puppies will be good or that the litter will be good. 

If you really trust this person - then I think you need to take your questions back to the breeder and your trainer. We can only comment on what you're telling us. We can give you a list like I did above but only you are seeing the puppies. Maybe take what I listed above and go watch the puppies. You said the breeder was going to guide you to a couple that he thought and let you choose. So talk to breeder's and see what they test their puppies for if you are determined to stick with this breeder. You might want to ask on this page








German Shepherd Dog Resource Center | Facebook







www.facebook.com





I"m not being mean. I want you to get a good dog from a good breeder and be successful.


----------



## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I keep saying just because a dog is not titled does not mean it should not be bred, just like a dog that is titled mean it should be bred.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> I know. I did not expect so many people to go straight to walking away after a few comments badly explained by me. I don't want to steer anyone wrong. I like the breeder. I don't want false info spread on him so I am afraid I might have explained too badly.
> 
> It does seem as if you all agree that as long as he is a solid, trustworthy breeder and has good lines, I should not worry too much about the structure of the puppies. More so their temperaments.


I'm not great at conformation, but you get a general idea if you look for certain faults with a puppy because they'll still be faults with an adult. When I think of angulation, I'm thinking more about the rear legs then the back, but I know there's more to most of these details then I pay attention to. When I look at puppies, I keep in mind what a good or correct adult looks like, and I look for things that don't match that. Proportion, balance, I think they tend to keep things like that just like they tend to keep the same faults you see at 7 or 8 weeks.

These images from someone on PDB can give you a rough idea to think about:





GSD Puppy Conformation - picking the right puppy - Page 1







www.pedigreedatabase.com





I will say, I agree with Jax with the idea of maintaining traits in the dogs by testing them. Most everyone I can think of generally puts a 1 on a female when they have the plan of producing dogs for Schutzhund. If they aren't, you are completely putting your trust in what they tell you from their opinion, not something you can verify like a scorebook. 

When I got my dog Doc, I was there for over an hour deciding. It came down to he and one other brother. I picked him because when the two of them bit onto a towel, he never changed his grip and his brother would let go and bite him instead when it got too exciting. Both of them turned out fine, and the brother actually did better then we did in the sport.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

To your original question.... 

A correct bite (no overbite or underbite).

No DQ's if you intend to breed survey the dog - undescended testicles, ears that won't stand, white dog, etc You can't see adult teeth in an 8 week old, but you can ask about missing teeth in the sire, dam, etc. At eight weeks, ears that are already up are great, but that isn't always the case, even in quality dogs. 

Angulation and the nuances of structure are not particularly easy to assess in puppies unless you've looked at a _*lot *_of dogs and had good mentors help you develop an eye. 

The wear and tear of training and trialing (and work) will cause some dogs to break down faster than others. If a dog was never put through significant stressors, maybe it's a rugged working dog..... maybe it's not. If you keep your GSDs on the couch, they'll never need an ACL repair or back surgery, that's for sure. They won't have worn down teeth, broken teeth. There's no proof that the truly untested dog is resilient, healthy, and likely to pass on those genes.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> And sorry..not sorry...if the breeder can't be bothered with training and titling the female, just because he's been in ScH for years, he should not be breeding. There was just a huge argument on a well known breeder on here not long ago where I said the same thing. Quality control is quality control. I don't care who you are or what your experience is.
> 
> I would hope nobody excusing that well know breeder is hypocritical enough to dis this breeder on this thread for the exact same thing just because they don't "know" him.


I am hypocritical enough. 
Because there is a huge difference in someone producing dogs that do well in front of a judge and dogs that do well as actual working dogs. You yourself have stated that you can hide a lot of flaws with training, and that's all fine and well when your goal is points or a trophy, not so cool when the goal is lives saved or assets secured. 
For someone to say I competed for years but this dog wasn't important enough to title is very telling.
There is no title for a working dog, and things that impress judges fail miserably in the real world. Ask the Border Collie folks. 
A breeder who has successfully bred and selected real working dogs and never chased trophies is an entirely different thing. I'm not saying that a dog cannot do both, I'm saying that they are very, very different things. Nor am I saying that sport dogs are not good dogs. Everyone has different goals. My ranch horse did not do so well in the show ring but if I was bringing in a herd, especially if it was a rank herd, he was my first and only choice.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WIBackpacker said:


> To your original question....
> 
> A correct bite (no overbite or underbite).
> 
> ...


This is probably the best post on this thread to answer your specific question along with looking at the history of the line. 

I just had to have xrays done on my male when he came up lame. His 7 yr old hip xrays could be overlaid on his 2 yr old xrays. In addition to all this, ask about longevity in the lines. Ask about thinks like dogs dying from bloat or hemangiosarcoma. I'm not sure that they have proven a genetic link to these things but it's good to know. 

I think it's really hard to judge a line with back issues. You mostly hear about these dogs that are in sport. But what about the ones not in sport? Or in a different sport that isnt' so hard on their bodies? I don't think we have enough information to judge whether it's the line itself, if it's training young or if it's overuse on the aframe/jumping and jamming on bites. Just so many variables.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

anywho...back to the OP. I think you have a lot of information in this read. A facebook page to help you talk to breeders that are knowledgeable in testing puppies. One breeder who actually responded on here. Good luck!


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Just putting in an update. First of all after reading post for the last 9 months, I am embarrassed to say I reacted the same way so many other people before me have reacted. Thank you for the help you all tried to give. I had gone into the post with no open-mindedness to the possibility that I might receive a (correct) answer I did not like. So thank you for trying to help. 

To update, I misunderstood the breeder in my nerves and excitement. He did end up steering me to a particular puppy. Knowing my future goals, he had wanted me to begin learning more about what makes a good gsd, a good gsd. Not just in temperament (which I had spent the previous few years learning about) but in physical health as well. He bred the female without a formal title because he felt she had the genetics and temperament that would complement the male. Despite not having the unbiased proof, he had years of prior experience with gsds and chose to not undergo the long task of titling her. I understand that is a large area of debate and I also understand why. Knowing what I know now, I believe I would have asked more questions up front in his reasoning, but still made the same decision. Mainly because it meant I now have Kai. 

Kairos is fantastic. She is more dog than I could handle but the club members around me have been solid support systems and I hope I have grown in my handling skills. She is fearless, independent, puts everything she has into whatever we are doing be it obedience to trying to swallow the bite pillow whole, and learns faster than I can keep up (every week it seems like I am being told to start adding a new thing to our training regime). She has her faults but we are working through them. We made it through the early stages and at 8 months I believe she and I are reaching an understanding. For now. She is a different pup each week lol. 

In the meantime. I had to come back to this post because you guys started a new fascination into bloodlines, breed standards and why reputable breeders do what they do. So again thank you, and I am sorry I did not stop and listen better the first time.


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Courtesy of one of our club members


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It’s always interesting to see things come back up. The breeder I referred to was Stefan schaub. I think his bigger point was form follows function. It’s more important to look at the physical prowess of the dog and how they are able to perform the work than their confirmation. Coming from him, it’s a powerful statement to me.


----------



## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I have read that quote on here before, it is an interesting idea especially as the divide between the basic structure of a dog bred to work and a dog bred just for looks keeps deepening. Dogs with proper conformation may not necessarily be able to actually do any significant physical work.


----------

