# Pup problems, HELP!!!



## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

Hello Everyone,

I am Tony, Kazer's dad. Kazer is a handsome Black and tan GSD with Czech and German lineage. We got Kazer hoping he would grow up withour oldest boy who is five, but he only plays and responds to me.
What I need help with is submissive behavior, mostly peeing. We are in week 8 of basic Koehler training and now he only responds to me and only if the collar is on. Kazer pees when I come home, if I stand up too fast, and if he thinks he's in trouble( Which is everytime he pees now). I don't even yell at him. If I try to get him out the door he just sinks and pees more. I thought maybe it was his young bladder along with him growing so fast, but I think different now. We contacted the breeder for help and she refused to help, but that is a whole other story(We still don't have our papers). We need help. My wife has had it. We have our third child on the way and cleaning carpets non stop will not help his cause. I am open to giving him to someone who has more time. I have room in my heart for him, but unfortunately if I don't get this straightened out, he must go. 
Desperately seeking advice,
Tony B.
I can also be reached at:
[email protected]


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Okay... I am not familiar with the "Koehler" method of dog training, but I did a quick internet research on it, and I guessed it right... "you will obey me or you will regret it" -method...
HOW are you training your dog? Is it basically just that, unless you do exactly what I tell you, otherwise you will suffer? I hope not. If you do, I can TOTALLY understand the submissive peeing, and I would be peeing too, if I were your dog.
More information would be great!


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

This is submissive urination and without knowing more about the pup's background and previous behavior/reactions I can't really offer advice.

How old is the pup?
How old was he when you got him?
When did you start training and how did he react?
Have you been using a choke chain?
Is he/has he been free to explore the house and play with the child and other family members?
Are you reprimanding, if so..how?
Is he kept outside, inside?


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## mastercabman (Jun 11, 2007)

Are you using a crate?


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: oliver annieAre you using a crate?


A crate isn't going to help with a submissive pee'er. They'll squat and let it go right in there without a second thought.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm going to talk a bit about submissive urination.

I had a male mix. Soft dog, naturally submissive. A stern look was all it took to reprimand him.

One morning I come downstairs, and see him pick up something to chew on that wasn't his. As soon as I said 'Angus, NO!' he froze and peed. This told me one thing, I needed to beat the snot out of hubby.
I asked and found that earlier that morning, he caught the dog going into the trash and hit him as he yelled 'NO! BAD DOG!'

Rather than beating him while I screamed 'NO! BAD HUSBAND!', I explained why what he did was uneccessary and wrong. He grew up with the old school mentality where it was normal to whack a dog for an undesireable behavior. 

What I see of the Koehler training method is letting the pup learn to make his decisions based on not 'giving himself' a choke collar pop.

I don't really have a big problem with that...on a dog/pup 6 mos+. On a pup any younger, I see it as totally ridiculous and a great way of ruining him. Choke corrections on a young pup are equivalent to smacking it and will cause fear and yes, submissive urination in response to the things associated with the 'training'.

It's a great way to create a fearful and neurotic dog.

Small pups should be set up for success to build confidence, not for failure and choke corrections to break them down.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Sounds like your pups personality/temperment mixed with your personality/training style have come up with a puppy who knows you are boss. Absolutely the boss.

To the extent that he wants to make sure before he could possibly do something the least bit wrong, he shows he knows you are the boss by submissive peeing. YOU ARE IN CHARGE, LOOK I'M PEEING TO MAKE SURE YOU SEE/KNOW IT!

Though I'm sure you didn't mean to teach this, that is what your puppy has learned, and learned it well.

Koehler is a fairly dated training method that many people have had problems with so is generally being faded out by most current dog trainers. More specifically a young puppy needs to be encouraged to be happy and confident (preventing issues like submissive urination) in all training. 

New training methods are based on us figuring out clever ways to make our puppies learn and do things RIGHT so they earn praise and rewards (= confidence). Older training methods are based on setting our pups up to fail constantly during training so we can correct. Over and over (bad dog bad dog) with the hope eventually the strong corrections will 'teach' the dog. 

Not sure how old your puppy is now, but there are things to do. I'd stop ALL obedience training at this point and instead work on becoming a calm leader for your dog to again trust and not feel they may have to overly be submissive with. 

Some good sites I use are:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/puppack.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/leadership.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/relationshipbased.html


Here's some additional help for the submissive urination:

http://www.clickandtreat.com/webart105.htm

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/submissive%20urination.htm

http://www.phsspca.org/training/qa_submissive_urination.htm

http://dogplay.com/Behavior/peeing.html

http://www.animalhumanesociety.org/bhv_suburination.asp


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Thanks to all for the responses.
Kazer is 10 months old. We have been in training for 8 weeks. He was peeing LONG before this. I have done the praise and even tried to redirect him when I arrive with his frisbee or tennis ball, but no luck. Even if I start with a "Good Boy"or something of that nature, when I first arrive he pees and slumps, Period. I have talked with Brice Cavanaugh of team Dog and he concurred on the training and trainer. Tonight will be the last class I attend. the classes I attend were put on by our neighbor and her site is http://www.snojewelz.com. She just recieved a trainer "status" in this method from the latest Koehler guru over the winter. The presentation she puts on with her dog made me think "Wow, that could be my dog", as I needed help anyway. Kazer will not be a show dog. He is here to be part of the family, so I must try something different. 
For his backgorund. There's a lot to it but here's the relatively short version. Kazer was raised in a basement and was the last of 5 pups. He was left to do as he pleased. We got him at 12 weeks old and he was VERY shy. My wife had her reservations, but I talked her into it. Once home, Kazer never left my leg. He was my Shadow. He was my dog from day one. It was winter so he never ventured much in the snow. We, as a family, took him sledding, walks and car rides to the doggy stores! Katie, the "breeder" told us he was shy, but needed socialization. We take him everywhere, look at my car windows!!!! For the first three months if Kazer was left to "hang out" he would chase his tail for hours. We'd tell him to stop, or throw his toy, but right back to it. His mother does this. HIs mother does this to the point of exhaustion, and we saw it when we picked him up from them. We were told it was because their children taught this behavior as it was funny to watch. We do not find it funny, we find it sad. My wife stays at home with our two other children so she is able to play fetch and hide things for him to find. Then when I come home it's walks and chuck-it. When that failed to keep him busy, or from peeing and he was not catching the sit or down comands we enrolled in class. So here I am, frustrated. I put my kids to bed tonight and laid on the floor with Kazer, his tail flopping and I told him, "good boy", he then licked me and went to the door and signaled to go out. He went out, took care of business and came back to his crate. He laid down and here I am. I will look at the links ASAP. Thank you Maggie Rose Lee, and the rest of you. Feel free to contact my personal email and I will post my TX# if needed. Again, any help is appreciated.
Oh, I did not use the closest Kennel Club because the hours were few and far between, and a real person was hard to contact.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

I have a pretty strong personality so I have to watch it with pups or dogs that are more submissive. My one female Raya got into this submissive peeing thing shortly after I got her at 8 months old.

What I found that worked with her was to teach her the watch command, where it brings her focus up to my face. When she does this it changes her body posture, brings the head up, when you change the body posture from a submissive posture to a less submissive or happy/positive posture the submissive peeing seems to go away also.

Here is a long post on the board about teaching Focus, which is pretty much my watch command.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35064&page=1#Post35064

Val


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Do you have time to take him to an activity class like agility? We found agility to be a great confidence builder for our fearful dog - both the activity itself and the interaction with other pups - which is something your dog has lacked.

The tail chasing is the neurotic behaviour of a bored dog. It's great that your wife takes the time to interact with him as she does. If classes are not available, you might wish to put aside half an hour each evening to work on fun things with him. The Suzanne Clothier site posted above has a great article on scent games. At our house we used to play hide and seek regularly with lots of reward treats. 

Good luck with your boy.


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## Banditsdad (Oct 1, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

I`m new here but have to say although I like Koehler, it isn`t the preferred method anymore. I agree with the poster Maggierose. I would look for a method that highlights praise and less severe corrections. Your dog needs to build confidence. You also need all family members involved. Perhaps your son could be in charge of feeding. No yelling, everything calm and assertive.


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Good morning,

To start, I spend at least an hour with him in play, and 1/2 hour in training everyday. I get home at 7pm, and between 9p adn 11p it's his time. The rest of the day is with the wife and kids. I don't want to sound as if I am whining. My son does feed him, as with our 18 month old. He still doesn't listen to them. No sit, no stay, and down well forget it. We will start off next week with something different. I am stopping the Koehler. He still pees even if he sees I have a biscuit, ball or whatever when I hit the door. I did however get him outside from the house without peeing in the house today after I took my son to school. I let him out of the crate at 8a then left to go to school. When I returned my wife had him inside and he was wrestling w/my daughter. I called him right outside. He slumped a little but did not pee in the house. I had his KONG to keep him distracted. I would just like to walk in and sit down someday. I have this with our other dog, but she is 13y/o. I've just never experienced a shy dog like this. And I want to help him.


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

OH, Agility classes around here wont take him w/o the basics of sit, stay, down. Also they won't take him until he is a year old. He is only 10 months.
TB


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

It takes time. What has happened to this pup over 10 months isn't going to be undone in a few days.

Submissive peeing isn't going to go away in a few days. 

Finding a gentler approach to training will work but it takes time. 

Is your pup submissive to everyone in the house or just you? My Raya is submissive mostly to me and only if she is in season with my husband.

Dogs read body languarge, what is your body language saying what is the tone of your voice. Are you using the same tone that you did when you were training with the Koehler commands.

Just thought here, there are no quick fixes. It will take time to reset the pups mind.

Val


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

I'm hoping you are winding your way thru all the websites I posted. There is a ton of great information out there that will definitely help your situation. But you need to read EVERYTHING so you can then come up with a great plan.

Have to restate, this isn't just happening cause of anything you did on purpose. Really sounds like a mix of your pups temperment, raising before you took him on, and then the training method you had available to you. Your family, situation, and training with ANOTHER pup would probably not affected another puppy at all. 

First of all, just cause you are a male, it makes you dominant in the house. Your height and lower voice automatically make you more commanding than any female walking in the door. Just being aware of that is important. For instance, if you say 'good dog' in your normal voice, it's hard for a pup to know if you are happy or not. But if, instead, you raise your voice a bunch of octives and say 'good dog', your pup should immediately realize life is good. It's not WHAT you say at all, it's the tone and voice.

If you can find a clicker trainer in your area, you will be amazed how fast your pup learns and with no submissiveness. It's all about training our pups to think and do right for the reward. They are just never wrong. How much confidence do you think they start getting when everything they do clever is right, and anything else is just neutral!

IGNORE your pup when you get home. Too exciting and forces the submissiveness. Come in the house, say hey to the family, IGNORE your dog and then take him outside a few minutes later. 

http://www.extendedyears.com/behavior/50006.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC367wKGi4M

http://www.revver.com/video/788654/charging-the-clicker-dog-trick-training/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i-L3-gqWic


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Maggieroselee,
Just walking through the door makes him pee! And yes I am reading the sites as time allow.
Thanks,
TB


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## Banditsdad (Oct 1, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Try the book by Jan Fennel the Dog Listener.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

and if your interested in another method to teach him especially the basics,,try CLICKER,,I highly recommend the book "clicking with your dog" by Peggy Tilman.

It gives you exact instruction on all kinds of behaviors/tricks to try with a clicker..

Since he is a submissive dog,,I'll bet some clicker training would help ALOT>.

good luck with him
diane


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

In the mean time - to save your carpet! - try a dog belly band. These are incontinence divises for male dogs.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

JakodaCD OA, great minds think alike







the last post I made had links all about the clicker, what it is and how it works.

http://www.extendedyears.com/behavior/50006.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC367wKGi4M

http://www.revver.com/video/788654/charging-the-clicker-dog-trick-training/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i-L3-gqWic


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Superpup,

Yep I've had him to the vet. Original diagnosis was growning faster than his bladder. But again, Just pees w/me! We have alone time this weekend. I am working, but the fam went up north. So Kazer and I have bonding time. My old pup(13y/o) lab/chow mix, just hangs out, not too interseted in anything but sleep, or car rides
The vet later said with me being the ALPHA and my wife being pregnant that there was a sensory overload for him. you know dogs having a way better sense of smell than us bi-pods. To kazer's credit he is very intune withthe family's emotions. He is very concerned when my 18m/o girl cries, or when my son gets upset. He is also very aware when we are outside, ecspecially at a park. He does not let them out of his sight. Kazer actually intercepted my daughter on her way to the road. I yelled to her to stop and he FLEW over to her and knocked her down by bumping her w/his shoulder then sat between her and the road until I got over there. It was only ten ft from me but I was glad he was there. A reminder of his valor. I just need to help him to find his inner strength. 
Thanks for the reply
I'll look into the clicker
TB
TB


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## hellhound (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Submissive urination, HELP!!!*

Thanks to all of you who have given advice.
We have been slowly becoming the family we wanted to be.
Kazer no longer pees when I enter a room, and is doing well with just plain ol'praise. We are still over coming a few things, but hey he's not quite a year yet. Thanks again, and I'll keep reading and keep ya posted.
Tony


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