# Pup is starting to ignore me.



## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

At 15 weeks or so my pup had a 100% recall, but gradually it started to fade a way on if he really wanted to come back or not. The problem now is if I try to call him inside using an informal recall when he wants to stay outside and bark at deer across the fence....he looks at me, makes a decision to not come and just sits and stares....if I make one step towards him he bolts off like a bullet and it is very challenging to catch him, and it basically rewards him with a game for not coming when called. 

I have tried the running a way, and the falling on the ground when calling...both of theses worked the first couple of times until he caught on. 

I have tried a 20 foot lead to grab him by, but he chews through it...and a chain would be heavy, and tear stuff up. 

I almost never use a formal command to call him so it doesn't have negative reinforcement on his training (being made to come inside after coming) I know he is much more respectful to that command, but I also know he would ignore it in a heart beat if he really wanted to go do something else. 

(dog is about 6 months)


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

You pup is growing up and right now he has too much freedom. You need to rein him back in, he isn't outside unless you are out with him and he is on a long line. You don't give the pup the Option to listen to you or not. PS deer are far more inseresting than humans in dogs eyes.


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerYou pup is growing up and right now he has too much freedom. You need to rein him back in, he isn't outside unless you are out with him and he is on a long line. You don't give the pup the Option to listen to you or not. PS deer are far more inseresting than humans in dogs eyes.


Well, that sounds like it is going around the issue rather than fixing it to me; he will still have the same behavior in any other scenarios that come up.

As mentioned I have tried the long line but he chews through it with a vengeance, and I just cant afford a 15 dollar line a week. If you have any alternate options other than nylon that is practical I would be very interested, but even then wouldn't this teach him to only behave when he knows he can't get a way anyway?

What about an e-collar used responsibly?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

If you keep you pup busy they don't have time to chew on the line. I have Pictures of Cheyenne running with the long line in her mouth. She would be running, spin around find about 1/2 way on the line grab it there so instead on a 20 ft line I had a 10 ft line.

You are fixing the problem by not letting your pup have it's own way. 

You asked for suggestions I gave one, if you don't like it fine.

Val


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

I use squeaky balls, cuzes, tennis balls, shaking treat boxes, pop around the corner and yell "BOO!!" and anything else that might be interesting that is close by me when I go outside to call him in the house (my yard is fenced).

If he comes when he is called he gets his most favorite and desired treat.

If he doesn't come he doesn't get anything! 

My 4 month old is VERY food motivated so he always comes when he is called because he knows he will get a treat. After months of this he will just come to me now. 

I don't care if I have to give him treats every time to get him to come... it is still a "trick" and I'd rather make him work for his treats than just give him a treat for doing nothing. Ya know?


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerIf you keep you pup busy they don't have time to chew on the line. I have Pictures of Cheyenne running with the long line in her mouth. She would be running, spin around find about 1/2 way on the line grab it there so instead on a 20 ft line I had a 10 ft line.
> 
> You are fixing the problem by not letting your pup have it's own way.
> 
> ...


No reason to take it personally, I never discounted your suggestion I simply asked questions about it. 

Ideally I would like an option that would allow me to let him out to potty in the morning while I'm getting ready, that way time isn't being wasted with him sittin around in his crate until it's time to go out.


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## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: AxxelIdeally I would like an option that would allow me to let him out to potty in the morning while I'm getting ready, that way time isn't being wasted with him sittin around in his crate until it's time to go out.


Is he food motivated and do you feed him in the morning? What if you let him out to do his business while you get dressed, then he comes back in for his breakfast. If he needs to go out a second time, then you go out with him on leash so that he _has_ to come back in.

Just a thought,
Kristina


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

As far as meal motivation, next to 0....treat motivation is there...but rather weak. He would rather run around the yard then get a treat for example.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

It's the nature of the beasty.

Try a ball. I've yet to meet a GSD pup who isn't nuts about balls.

My Sieg is 6 months, when hubby takes the dogs out and calls him in...he ignores him. I always tell him 'stop saying it like you're asking him a question!'


It sounds to me like he is let out on his own, and not coming when you come out to call him in.

I think an e-collar would be circumventing your responsibility of watching the pup and enforcing a command that he NEEDS to know.

What if you let him out and the gate isn't closed? How long before you realize he's out of the yard? And even if it's within seconds it won't matter if he doesn't have a solid recall.

He can't chew through a 20 ft lead that you are holding the other end of.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Regarding an inexpensive alternative to the $15 long line: go to any hardware store/home improvement store and purchase several 15 foot lengths (or 10 foot lengths) and a couple of metal snaps. Tie the rope length to the snap and you have a very cheap long line. with the extras, even if the pup does manage to chew one, all you have to do is cut the snap off and tie a new rope length to it. I like cotton rope, personally, because it is easier on my hands than nylon.
regarding the recall: practice it. When you are out with your pup, on a long line perhaps, give him a chance to do his business before working on anything. Once he has done that, practice his recall. Have a really tasty treat ready and waiting. Call him to you in a very exciting, animated voice. When he turns to look at you, keep calling in the same excited, happy voice and start to move backwards. He may start to move towards you. If he does keep moving backwards, calling him as he comes. If he speeds up, get even more animated and excited and tell him what a good puppy he is. If he doesn't move towards you, start to evenly pull him in to you as you back up. Keep your voice excited and HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY as you do it. When he reaches you he gets a jack pot of treats and a huge amount of praise. Then, release him to go back to doing whatever it was he was doing when you called him. He needs to know that you're not going to bring him in every time he comes to you (regardless of what command you use). He thinks he has it all figured out, in his little adolescent puppy brain. Your job now is to shake up his understanding og the rules of engagement that he has created. Always praise and treat when he gets to you, even when you have had to reel him in, and randomly let him go back to doing his own thing. if he isn't food motivated, try using a different treat. One of my dogs has turned his nose up at everything, until I tried home baked liver. Bingo! And I sometimes use his tug toy to reinforce behaviors. Mix it up, try different things. 
I wouldn't use an e-collar on a youngster. I wouldn't use one on any age dog because I don't have the experience and timing needed to make the use of one effective and not counter-productive. But even experienced trainers don't use them on pups.
Good luck! Raising a puppy is hard work!
Sheilah


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ReichsmomIt's the nature of the beasty.
> 
> Try a ball. I've yet to meet a GSD pup who isn't nuts about balls.
> 
> ...


I will answer your suggestions in the order you gave them,

I have tried a ball, like the other things he quickly realized that if I am standing anywhere near the door then it means I will make him go inside and he will just sit there and look at me. 

Yes, I sometimes let him out on his own.

I live alone, both gates are pad locked, I'm not even sure where the key is...that isn't a concern. 

yes he can chew threw a 20ft lead if I'm holding then end of it...the other end attaches to his neck...you know right there by his teeth, if you like I can host a video of how the only thing on his mind is chewing through that lead...this wasn't an issue until I used it to reinforce a recall.


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stayRegarding an inexpensive alternative to the $15 long line: go to any hardware store/home improvement store and purchase several 15 foot lengths (or 10 foot lengths) and a couple of metal snaps. Tie the rope length to the snap and you have a very cheap long line. with the extras, even if the pup does manage to chew one, all you have to do is cut the snap off and tie a new rope length to it. I like cotton rope, personally, because it is easier on my hands than nylon.
> regarding the recall: practice it. When you are out with your pup, on a long line perhaps, give him a chance to do his business before working on anything. Once he has done that, practice his recall. Have a really tasty treat ready and waiting. Call him to you in a very exciting, animated voice. When he turns to look at you, keep calling in the same excited, happy voice and start to move backwards. He may start to move towards you. If he does keep moving backwards, calling him as he comes. If he speeds up, get even more animated and excited and tell him what a good puppy he is. If he doesn't move towards you, start to evenly pull him in to you as you back up. Keep your voice excited and HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY as you do it. When he reaches you he gets a jack pot of treats and a huge amount of praise. Then, release him to go back to doing whatever it was he was doing when you called him. He needs to know that you're not going to bring him in every time he comes to you (regardless of what command you use). He thinks he has it all figured out, in his little adolescent puppy brain. Your job now is to shake up his understanding og the rules of engagement that he has created. Always praise and treat when he gets to you, even when you have had to reel him in, and randomly let him go back to doing his own thing. if he isn't food motivated, try using a different treat. One of my dogs has turned his nose up at everything, until I tried home baked liver. Bingo! And I sometimes use his tug toy to reinforce behaviors. Mix it up, try different things.
> I wouldn't use an e-collar on a youngster. I wouldn't use one on any age dog because I don't have the experience and timing needed to make the use of one effective and not counter-productive. But even experienced trainers don't use them on pups.
> Good luck! Raising a puppy is hard work!
> Sheilah


Thank you, your comments are very helpful. I don't think he associates a recall with going inside, because I uses it on walks in the woods, or around the house, or even in the back yard with no problems. He can just tell if I am going to make him go inside, he has amazing sense of timing. For example I put him in his crate at around 7:55...as soon as I get up and head towards him he knows what's coming and he will run over and jump on the couch as if to say "why cant I just stay here?" Or if after I'm done getting ready in the morning I walk outside he knows it's time to come in. I also think it must have a lot to do with body language I'm not even aware of. Sometimes I have to leave early and he can tell I'm about to put him up...even though I'm trying to act normal. 

Also proximity has a lot to do with it...if I recall him when I'm around the door he knows it means I'm going to make him come inside...if I do it from across the yard he bounds over happily. . . but I have noticed that if I trick him to come inside like using a ball as previously mentioned...food, toy, or recall from another spot then he quickly catches on and ignores that method...which to me is the opposite of what I want, this just creates scenarios in his head of when he should ignore me.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Axxel
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ReichsmomIt's the nature of the beasty.
> ...


If you're holding the other end, as soon as he goes for it..stop him.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Heres a suggestion, get up an hour earlier and take him on a long leashed walk, then he will be tired enough to come inside. Stop all free running in the yard adn give triple the exercise he has been getting but all with you. It looks to me like he relates come to being crated and left alone and he isn't tired enough for that.

As far as chewing through the leash i had a dog bite through a 6 foot leather leash my husband held cause the dog wanted to come with me and the female in heat I had on leash so I know that can happen. I coated my leashes with bitter apple and the sour taste stopped it. I won't say they wouldn't chew through with time with that on it but while holding it you then have time to pull them in to you and stop it. Also on leash have him carry the ball, frisbee, toy what ever he loves and then he can't chew.
Good luck and remember you are smarter than him and will work it out, peacefully and cleverly. Make him tired and happy.


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: trudyHeres a suggestion, get up an hour earlier and take him on a long leashed walk, then he will be tired enough to come inside. Stop all free running in the yard adn give triple the exercise he has been getting but all with you. It looks to me like he relates come to being crated and left alone and he isn't tired enough for that.
> 
> As far as chewing through the leash i had a dog bite through a 6 foot leather leash my husband held cause the dog wanted to come with me and the female in heat I had on leash so I know that can happen. I coated my leashes with bitter apple and the sour taste stopped it. I won't say they wouldn't chew through with time with that on it but while holding it you then have time to pull them in to you and stop it. Also on leash have him carry the ball, frisbee, toy what ever he loves and then he can't chew.
> Good luck and remember you are smarter than him and will work it out, peacefully and cleverly. Make him tired and happy.


I do agree with you not coming inside is a symptom of not being tired enough, but I still want my dog to obey even if he doesn't want too at the moment. 

I will try the bitter apple idea, and some of the other suggestions, thanks guys.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: AxxelAlso proximity has a lot to do with it...if I recall him when I'm around the door he knows it means I'm going to make him come inside...if I do it from across the yard he bounds over happily. . . but I have noticed that if I trick him to come inside like using a ball as previously mentioned...food, toy, or recall from another spot then he quickly catches on and ignores that method...which to me is the opposite of what I want, this just creates scenarios in his head of when he should ignore me.


Yes, you're exactly right! He thinks he has it all figured out. I really think you'll have some success with making it random. If he thinks you are going to bring him in every time you call him from near the door, start working on his recall at the door when you won't be bringing him in. But also work on it in the middle of the yard, and near the fence. And so on. When he comes to you, for whatever reason, and regardless of needing to be reeled in or not, have the biggest freaking party ever. Play tug, throw his ball, lavish high value treats on him. And then let him go back to doing his own thing. Or bring him in. You have to mix it up. Dogs are very, very adept at seeing patterns. He has your pattern down. So change it.
You might want to do this exercise 10-15 times a day. You can do it at night, you can do it in the morning. And on days when you don't work, do it twice as often. And keep reinforcing it even after he "gets it". 
I am having some success with clearing my mind of thoughts of what I need to get done when I start to work with any of my dogs. If I call one to me with the intention of crating in preparation to leave the house, I clear my mind of thoughts of that action and try to think of something totally unrelated. I honestly believe that dogs are so good at reading us that they can perhaps pick up on even the slightest cue. Maybe whenever I think of driving away from the house in my car, my left eyebrow dips down a half inch? Maybe that is the cue that my dog is picking up on? So instead, I think of riding my horse, or maybe hiking in the mountains. Anything to re-frame my own mental attitude/approach. It also helps the energy level I bring to the situation. If I am close to running late and need these things to happen right now, I am going to bring a whole different energy level to the situation than if I have all the time in the world. 
It really is fascinating, and something that you can play around with. 
Sheilah


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Axxel, your puppy is acting EXACTLY the same way as most of our pups at the same age. Exactly the way any intelligent pup would with a decision based on a) stay outside and have fun or b) listen to dad to go in the house and the fun stops........stops dead.

I wouldn't come either. Smart puppy.

You not only have set him up to ignore you cause he can, he can also AVOID you cause he can. Doubley bad for getting a good 'come'. And you did it all by yourself!









What would happen if earlier (months ago) you coming back into the yard, and yelling come, when he comes, means a 5 - 10 minute game of ball in the yard? With only going into the house AFTER that 10 minutes and also running to get a treat????????

These pups are BRILLIANT! The connection between 'come' meaning zero fun and NOT 'coming' meaning the fun goes on is a connection they can all make. So it's our job to make sure we are NOT zero fun. Not the fun suckers for their lives.  And well worth the tearing across the yard because it's even BETTER than staying away.

How are the dog classes coming? Socialization trips? His off leash 'come' in new areas rather than the yard?


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeHow are the dog classes coming? Socialization trips? His off leash 'come' in new areas rather than the yard?


Dog classes go great, he has always been the most well behaved pup there. Socialization trip were doing fine...until he hit about 5 months and started barking at other dogs. I couldn't really figure that one out. He would only bark if he couldnt get to the dog to say "hi" If I let him approach he would be fine. The last trip he barked at a service GSD at home depot which freaked me out, I don't want to be responsible for a service dog going crazy. Off leash come isn't what it use to be when he was much younger, but it is still very respectable.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think you need to work on Axxel's recall. it doesn't matter where he is he should come when called. maybe he has to much free time. start his recall training all over again. when it's time to go out take him out on a leash. Axxel is young. i've never formally trained a dog before it was 16 weeks old. every trainer i had told me to bring the puppy to them at 16 weeks. 

how can Axxel chew through a leash or long line with you there? these Shep's are good but they're not good, are they???


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Dog classes go great, he has always been the most well behaved pup there. Socialization trip were doing fine...until he hit about 5 months and started barking at other dogs. I couldn't really figure that one out. He would only bark if he couldnt get to the dog to say "hi" If I let him approach he would be fine. The last trip he barked at a service GSD at home depot which freaked me out, I don't want to be responsible for a service dog going crazy. Off leash come isn't what it use to be when he was much younger, but it is still very respectable.


So at dog class he is still doing great, just breaking down in public and at home?

The age thing (5 months) when things start to change is again NORMAL. They go thru different stages and if we deal with them properly, get thru them well. If we avoid or don't continue to train with them, they issues get worse (much worse?). 

You seen these sites? Explain why we have to be happy and support them to get them thru the stages, not 'command/demand'. When they are older 'obedience' can be different, but the first year or so is to make a good basis for them WANTING to listen to us and WANTING to learn with us.

http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

http://www.vonfalconer.com/puppy.html

http://www.traumhofgsd.com/The%20Fear%20Period.pdf


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

There are a few things that you can do to help your pup through this very natural behavioral stage.

One - use a length of chain between your dog's collar and the long line. A choke chain will work - not as a collar, but as a chain. You can fasten a clip to one ring (to attach to his flat collar) and then snap the long line to the other ring. If you have a 20" choke chain, then that first 20" will be chain and he will be unlikely to chew through it.

Second, he needs to learn a specific "come inside" command. I start with my dogs on a leash so they can't get too far away. And then I use whatever it is that they really like .. each dog can be different, so you need to really understand what your particular dog likes. If his favorite is a ball, that's fine. I've used treats primarily as my dogs are little chow-hounds (sometimes literally as I have chows as well as GSDs .. *L*). I use very special treats like bits of left over steak, pork chop, cheese, liverwurst, etc. These are NOT normal, everyday treats - they're specifically chosen to teach a specific behavior.

I let my dog know I have these treats, and then I send him out the door on the leash or long line. I stand in the door and watch, and when he's a few feet away I suddenly call him in a very enthusiastic voice (using a new command like "Rover, in the house!", and then I turn and toss several treats across the floor in the room behind me. And then I run to the treats, saying things like "mmm, I'm gonna get these good treats! What YUMMY treats I have here!" (you get the picture - I'm trying to make him want to come in and get the treats). Most dogs will turn and run in to get the treats or to see what their crazy person is doing, and then you encourage them to find and eat all those great treats.

Then you let them go back outside. And you repeat. Gradually you let the dog get farther and farther away before you call. The first session you may only do this four or five times and only let him get 6-8 feet away. But since you're going to repeat this game a couple times a day for a week or more, you'll have time to let him gradually get farther away.

There are a couple of things that work in this training. One, you're using really really REALLY great things that motivate your dog. Two, you're acting silly which is a further motivation of your dog. Three, you're running back into the house instead of going out toward your dog so there's no encouragement on your part to make a chase game out of it (you chasing him, anyway). And four, you're allowing him to go back out AFTER he's come in, which means that coming in no longer ends all the fun.

I don't use the same recall command for coming inside that I do for other times. I say "in the house" to mean "go through the door" and it's been very effective since it's not confused with other times. With four dogs, I still will often throw a handful of treats across the floor and whoever makes it in quickly gets some treats (competition is handy when you have a group of dogs). But each dog was taught separately as to what "in the house" meant. 

Your boy is young and excited about the outside world. You can either fight against that, or find a way to become more exciting. If he finds that coming in is rewarding then there's no reason for him to avoid it. But it does take some effort and consistency on your part for it to work.

Good luck, hope you use some of these ideas!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Jake's Mom (Nov 27, 2008)

Melanie,

That's how I teach come! All my neighbors think I am crazy, but Jake has a lightening fast recall -- no matter what! Of course, he's only 13 weeks old, but I hope by randomly continuing this reinforcement that he'll never be sure I don't have treats!


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Just had to say I am finding this thread hugely helpful as I work with Lucy. The suggestions for me get me thinking about what Lucy's thinking- which I think will help in other areas of training as well. 
Great job people!


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