# Signs of a Poorly Bred Dog



## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

So I'm curious here, what are some signs that a dog was poorly bred as far as appearance, temperament, and health goes? Specifically signs of a poorly bred GSD, but signs for other dogs as well can apply.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh boy! This list could be quite long. I feel like I have the GSD that is the poster child for signs of poor breeding.

She has: hip dysplasia; food sensitivities to almost everything; poorly developed lower front teeth (adult teeth almost look like baby teeth); premature canine tooth wear; a rib malformation (cause could be genetic or from birth injury); spay at 19 months found abnormally small immature ovaries (she never had a heat cycle). She is anxious about everything and easily gets stress colitis. Her GI tract is super sensitive to diet changes.

Temperament: Nerve bag. She gets anxious very easily. Fearful and superstitious of many things for no good reason. She is iffy with other dogs as they don't seem to like her at first sniff. They sniff her and growl and snap at her. She takes offense and reacts in turn the same way. We try to avoid strange dogs. But when she finds a friend it's all good. Any noise that sounds like it might be gun fire (even if it's far off) sends her running for safety. Afraid of thunder. 

Don't get me wrong as she has many redeeming qualities. But she truly is the poster child for what can go wrong with bad breeding.


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## CarrieJo (Oct 1, 2016)

Springbrz said:


> Oh boy! This list could be quite long. I feel like I have the GSD that is the poster child for signs of poor breeding.
> 
> She has: hip dysplasia; food sensitivities to almost everything; poorly developed lower front teeth (adult teeth almost look like baby teeth); premature canine tooth wear; a rib malformation (cause could be genetic or from birth injury); spay at 19 months found abnormally small immature ovaries (she never had a heat cycle). She is anxious about everything and easily gets stress colitis. Her GI tract is super sensitive to diet changes.
> 
> ...


I had a sheltie that was scared to death of thunder, fireworks, or gunfire. We tried everything to get her over it nothing worked. The other thing that was wrong with her was excessive barking. (Yes I had a sheltie before this one she was excessive even for a sheltie.) Other than not being quite right after getting a hold of some chocolate one time she just wasn't quite right as before. But she had a beautiful coat, smart, and pretty but I don't think anyone should breed a dog that barks so excessively that someone drilled holes through the moms (vocal cords I think they said.) I should have known better. Still loved her for years and even though she was my husband's dog she belonged to my son as far as she was concerned she loved him to death.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Physically, I've seen: snippy noses (thin and sharp), poor and washed out color, eyes too close together, rangy (could be a result of early spay/neuter, however). Heads more coyote-like than GSD like if you know what I mean.

Temperamentally, I've seen: anxious, insecure, inappropriately aggressive.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

One thing I can say that I hear/see a lot in poorly bred GSDs is they are nervous, inappropriately aggressive, or lack confidence. You hear a lot of people who have "pet" bred dogs talk about how their dogs constantly bark and growl at everything that moves and think this is a great guarding instinct. I think this is a poorly bred dog that lacks confidence and is environmentally unstable though many people sadly believe it's a normal characteristic of the breed. In my opinion a well bred, confident dog does not mindlessly bark and only shows appropriate aggression, a dog that goes around growling and showing it's teeth all the time is a scared, defensive dog, not a confident one. Also habitual pacing seems to be something that lots of poorly bred GSDs do. After seeing so many well bred, well trained GSDs in the past year of training even the worst one is 10X better than the best pet bred dog I've seen. Really is sad what careless breeding has done to these dogs
Appearance wise an oversized dog sometimes is a sign of poor breeding, not always but I'd say the majority of back yard bred GSDs are oversized


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm easily offended by stuff like this. 
I to have a poster child for bad breeding, and bad breeding practices. So I get sensitive about her flaws being pointed out. And make no mistake, I have seen some nightmares come out of supposedly good breedings and some solid gold out of apparently bad breedings.
In general poorly bred dogs seem more prone to food sensitivities and joint issues, but remember that poor practices can cause these issues as well. Temperament and fear issues can also be impacted by environment and improper handling early on. 
A well bred bitch poorly cared for and mistreated can produce nightmare pups as a poorly bred well cared for, well treated bitch may produce decent pups.
Remember that diet and nutrition play huge roles in growth, and mental development. 
I am not saying you can undo bad genes, but genetics are kind of tricky and not many breeders truly understand them. Over the course of many years in rescue I have run into some truly amazing dogs in some very unlikely places. You may see a couple of generations of mediocre dogs and then get that one pup that is a throwback to grandad who was superdog. 
In general I have seen dogs at dog shows with much weaker conformation and coloring then Shadow. 
Also keep in mind that exposure to certain chemicals and toxins can have nasty effects on unborn pups.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I should have added that just because a dog is poorly bred does not mean they're a bad dog, many rescues are great pets and many have great health and temperament. My old girl was a rescue, lived to over 16 years old with amazing health and was the last dog on earth that would bite any person. But she did have some nervous issues and paced constantly, this could have been genetics or from environmental issues when she was young, either way it was sad to see. Did not mean to offend anyone or put down rescues, just makes me mad how many people are carelessly breeding dogs and the end result leaves a lot of unwanted dogs that deserve a chance but most likely won't get it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"Inappropriate" as in aggression is subjective. What may be viewed as inappropriate aggression by one may be viewed as inadequate aggression by another under the same circumstances.

From the breed standard:

"He* must possess instinctive behaviour*, resilience and self-assurance in order *to be suitable as a* companion, *guard, protection*, service and herding dog."

Poorly bred, but certainly not all inclusively, is a dog that lacks appropriate instincts for aggression and the nerve to back up those instincts.

One should be able to expect with the guidance of a *reputable* breeder with experience and knowledge that a GSD puppy would adhere to within a reasonable degree to the breed standard withstanding nature's cooperation. Well bred is not an accident.

If the standard calls for erect ears, one should expect the ears to stand.

If the standard calls for the ability to guard and protect instinctively, that is what one should expect. Sometimes, some people, will view that aggression as inappropriate, but it will still be acceptable according to standard.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree that some dogs can only be taken so far. However, Ultimately too many variables help to determine the outcome of adult dogs. I believe that a poorly bred dog with bad nerves given the proper training can be a more stable dog than a well bred dog with crappy training. Even with no training, environment itself can have the ability to effectively manipulate the dogs outcome. And as MAWL pointed out above. A lot of things are all relevant to individual realities.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> I agree that some dogs can only be taken so far. However, Ultimately too many variables help to determine the outcome of adult dogs. I believe that a poorly bred dog with bad nerves given the proper training can be a more stable dog than a well bred dog with crappy training. Even with no training, environment itself can have the ability to effectively manipulate the dogs outcome. And as MAWL pointed out above. A lot of things are all relevant to individual realities.


I have to respectfully disagree here. A nervy dog will always be nervy, no matter how great their training is. The nerves may be hidden a bit, and an onlooker may not be able to see that the dog is nervy, but I guarantee that the dog is still nervy. I speak from personal experience as my 2 year old male GSD is a total nerve bag, but to people who have never seen/met him, he doesn't look outwardly nervy when he's doing obedience. Yes, he has good obedience, and he has had good training, but he would still run off the field if I let him. You can't change a dog's genetics with training. You can hide things, but that is all.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I agree that genetics can only be modestly enhanced or suppressed with raising and training.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree that genetics can only be modestly enhanced or suppressed with raising and training.


Exactly. A truly stable dog will always be more trustworthy/predictable than a nervy dog, regardless of training. I have to work much harder with my nervy boy than I do my stable female.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Exactly. A truly stable dog will always be more trustworthy/predictable than a nervy dog, regardless of training. I have to work much harder with my nervy boy than I do my stable female.


They say the best proof is look at all the badly abused and neglected dogs rescued from horrible situations that come out of it with wagging tails and kisses for the rescuers.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Exactly. A truly stable dog will always be more trustworthy/predictable than a nervy dog, regardless of training. I have to work much harder with my nervy boy than I do my stable female.


Define nervy. Because I've seen a trainer on here who got a dog for sport who said their dog was genetically nervy, yet their description was not of my understanding of nerves. 
Is it relative to ones experiences and expectations? 

A poorly bred dog to me is a dog that exhibits behaviors not indicative of the breed and poor structure.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Define nervy. Because I've seen a trainer on here who got a dog for sport who said their dog was genetically nervy, yet their description was not of my understanding of nerves.
> Is it relative to ones experiences and expectations?
> 
> A poorly bred dog to me is a dog that exhibits behaviors not indicative of the breed and poor structure.


I can only speak to my personal experience with what I define a nervy dog to be. My nervy dog is extremely unsure of himself. He lacks confidence. He reacts inappropriately to all people (either with hackling and growling, or trying to flee/hide), because he is afraid. He is afraid of tall plants, enclosed stairways, construction horses, street grates and the like, despite the fact that I socialized him extensively. He's always been unsure of himself, but environmentally, it has gotten worse as he's gotten older. I truly thought, when we got him, that if we socialized the heck out of him and trained him well, he would overcome his fears and end up ok. Nope. It was a tough lesson to learn, for sure. Genetics are genetics. Weak nerves, fearfulness, whatever you want to call it... it's not great. All you can do is hope you can find ways to work around the fear.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think you have to look at temperament and health. Some might say Robyn was poorly bred because of her hip dysplasia, but her temperament is wonderful, so I don't necessarily consider her poorly bred. I really haven't had a dog with poor temperament but I have seen quite a few. Robyns temperament is about 100% better. Hip dysplasia is an awful thing but at this point I would take that over poor temperament. It can be managed and doesnt make the dog a liability. I don't know where any of mine come from, but both Midnite and Apollo have good temperaments, but different temperaments. Midnite and Robyn are older, they can take or leave people. When they were younger they seeked out people more. Apollo has always been more skeptical of people. He is the thinker of the bunch. He loves family when they come over and he loves a couple of the neighbors, he really likes one of my neighbors a lot. He has to get to know a person before he will like them. He is not one to seek out attention and unlike the other two, I do not allow strangers to approach and pet him. All of them follow the standard pretty well, with Apollo having more of an edge. My neighbor that raised GSDs used to favor Midnite, but he has taken a bigger liking to Apollo, because Apollo is more serious.

I might be able to tell if there is more of a difference if I ever get a GSD from a breeder, but that has been a fail 2x in a row. I don't even talk to the breeder for fear another GSD(like Midnite or Apollo) might pop up. I have enough dogs at this time!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> They say the best proof is look at all the badly abused and neglected dogs rescued from horrible situations that come out of it with wagging tails and kisses for the rescuers.


I rescued several dogs from wire cages in an old barn. Mori licked my face as we lifted her out of the cage she had been born in a year earlier. 
Her brother was all kisses a few cages down and we had to cut his foot loose.
Their mother was skittish and shy. She had a broken leg. She cowered and growled but refrained from bitting.
The male we assumed was Mori's dad was a raging maniac. He was in an actual run and appeared to be decently cared for. 
The two litters we got were awesome little beggars after several weeks of good care. Bold adventurous little loves. Except the one female who liked to hide under chairs and cry. 
None of them were well bred. All were decently stable dogs. Of the 16 dogs we removed that night only two were unstable. 
Yes genetics play a factor. Problem is you can't guess genetics by looking at the dogs or the breeder.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I have to respectfully disagree here. A nervy dog will always be nervy, no matter how great their training is. The nerves may be hidden a bit, and an onlooker may not be able to see that the dog is nervy, but I guarantee that the dog is still nervy. I speak from personal experience as my 2 year old male GSD is a total nerve bag, but to people who have never seen/met him, he doesn't look outwardly nervy when he's doing obedience. Yes, he has good obedience, and he has had good training, but he would still run off the field if I let him. You can't change a dog's genetics with training. You can hide things, but that is all.


Exactly. What would your dog be like in the hands of a person who had no desire or knowledge to train. I'm not saying that bad nerves can be trained away. Simply saying that they can be trained to a point where they can deal with those nerves and become a solid well mannered dog. I also think for your dog to be that nervy yet still be able to remain on the field and perform shows courage and trust in you that not all well bred dogs would have. 
And through bad training, "if you think that every moment of a dogs life is in some way training" a well bred dog can be programmed to be a scared, fear aggressive, wreck. Sure there are cases where no matter what a solid dog will remain solid but probably not the norm. I just think too many dogs are labeled bad dogs when in actuality they are just programmed to be that way.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I do not think that HD is a sign of bad breeding.
Nerviness is in all lines of the GS,imo. You can breed so far in any direction,( size, color; and I don't mean faded color but rather exclusive color and color pattern, angulation, big heads and structure, and extreme drives ) and you will have diminished nerve!!! When you get to that point I submit you have " bad breeding". So I have seen weak nerves from good breeding, but that particular dog is not reflective of the breeding; likewise I have seen decent dogs from bad breeding, but they don't reflect the norm of that breeding either.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I rescued several dogs from wire cages in an old barn. Mori licked my face as we lifted her out of the cage she had been born in a year earlier.
> Her brother was all kisses a few cages down and we had to cut his foot loose.
> Their mother was skittish and shy. She had a broken leg. She cowered and growled but refrained from bitting.
> The male we assumed was Mori's dad was a raging maniac. He was in an actual run and appeared to be decently cared for.
> ...


There are breeders whose goal is to produce high end sport dogs, police K9s, SAR dogs, guide dogs or therapy dogs, etc., and do it with a high degree of success. Not every puppy they breed can fulfill these goals, but of those that don't, most don't miss the mark by much. 

I have seen people look at a dog and ask if a certain dog is in its pedigree, based on appearances, the same can be said of behavior. Reputable breeders know the genetics of the dogs in pedigrees going back many generations and what they are known to produce even when bred to different types of dogs.

I think the difference lies in what one calls breeders and what one calls reputable breeders.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are breeders whose goal is to produce high end sport dogs, police K9s, SAR dogs, guide dogs or therapy dogs, etc., and do it with a high degree of success. Not every puppy they breed can fulfill these goals, but of those that don't, most don't miss the mark by much.


I have to agree. You really stack the deck in your favor when you go to a breeder who is goal-oriented, smart, and careful. There is remarkable consistency. The breeding programs I worked with/that produced my dog have conformation among their goals but also good health and temperament. They acknowledge that the majority will end up in pet homes and need to be healthy, stable, happy pets. They are individuals, and it's true that not every breeding would have pups that are a great match for everyone, but the vast majority of the dogs have the ability to be wonderful pets for the right owners. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen people look at a dog and ask if a certain dog is in its pedigree, based on appearances, the same can be said of behavior. Reputable breeders know the genetics of the dogs in pedigrees going back many generations and what they are known to produce even when bred to different types of dogs.
> 
> I think the difference lies in what one calls breeders and what one calls reputable breeders.


Regarding the inherited traits and behavior - I had my dog at a show once, just hanging out, and three of her half-siblings were being shown that day. ALL four of the young dogs had their sire's head. One of the breeders saw my dog stand up and lean against my legs and rub up like a cat. She laughed and said my dog's paternal great grandsire had done that and his progeny tended to do it too. It was cool learning about that because she'd done it since she was little and I'd always found it endearing.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

It seems like things are looked at as black and white -there are dogs that are well bred and those that aren't. Saw a dog that I really liked -was a gorgeous dog great temperament -had health issues-I still think that dog was well bred. Got a $20 dollar dog from the shelter-did obedience with her-she did awesome-when I got her she was skin a bones-not much too look at -after a year she was a different dog-her pigment was faded -you probably could easily say she was poorly bred-I am so glad I owned her. So don't think things are so black and white. To me after owning 4 dogs a good breeder is someone who genuinely care about the dog-and sometimes you don't figure that out till you've owned the dog for a while


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## El_rex (Jan 14, 2016)

My dog has an OCD (pacing) and I wonder if this is because he is from BYB. Could be I guess.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are a lot of well bred dogs that end up in shelters, well bred dogs to me are dogs that consistently reflect the traits and appearances that are in the standard.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So as not to be misunderstood, when I say that HD in a dog doesn't reflect poor breeding, I think you have to factor in whether the HD is the norm for the litter or the exception. If a litter has 7 pups and one of the seven becomes dysplastic, then over 85 % of the litter has GOOD hips. Therefore, the dyplastic dog does not reflect the litter being poorly bred BECAUSE of the HD. Now if multiple pups in litter become dysplastic, then the litter does reflect health as a reason for it not being a good breeding.
I think we have to be careful about using exceptions as predictive or indications of quality or norm.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

El_rex said:


> My dog has an OCD (pacing) and I wonder if this is because he is from BYB. Could be I guess.


I've seen dogs coming from breeders who title, health test, ect and they'll pace and whine excessively too.


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## Saracino (Sep 11, 2021)

Springbrz said:


> Oh boy! This list could be quite long. I feel like I have the GSD that is the poster child for signs of poor breeding.
> 
> She has: hip dysplasia; food sensitivities to almost everything; poorly developed lower front teeth (adult teeth almost look like baby teeth); premature canine tooth wear; a rib malformation (cause could be genetic or from birth injury); spay at 19 months found abnormally small immature ovaries (she never had a heat cycle). She is anxious about everything and easily gets stress colitis. Her GI tract is super sensitive to diet changes.
> 
> ...


My GSD is about to turn 2 and I think he has elbow dysplasia. Any tips on what to give them to help joints?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Saracino said:


> My GSD is about to turn 2 and I think he has elbow dysplasia. Any tips on what to give them to help joints?


Better to start a new thread in the Health sub forum.


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