# USA/SV dual reg



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I recently took ownership of a dog that has not been entered in any shows or trials since she was under a year old so now that she is under my name, I'm getting her scorebook and registration done for upcoming trials/shows. 

If I have plans to breed the dog in Germany, is it better to register the dog with a USA/SV dual registration or would a simple USA registration do? I can always get the USA changed to dual later on if necessary. 

Would the titles obtained under a USA registration be valid if the dog is later on registered as USA/SV? 
USA reg costs 35$ and dual runs 80$. 

If I end up doing dual, how should I provide proof of the ancestor's show ratings and work titles? My breeder will have copies for the sire and dam. Would that be sufficient for grandparents as well or do they need individual proof as well? The ancestors are registered/titled/koered/rated with the SV, would that be sufficient proof of said titles/ratings or do I have to provide my own proof along with my application? 

Thanks for any and all help


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

You can email the SV on the titles. I know I had to find copies of Leyna's to send in because they are Czech, not SV. They should be in the system if they are SV though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do not see the point of the dual reg. Lots of US people have dogs bred in Germany and they are AKC dogs that show and compete with WDA or USCA. The SV is not going to prevent you from bringing your bitch to a German/SV male if your dog is AKC registered. The AKC is the FCI recognized registry in the USA, not SV. My dog was bred in Germany, his dam was brought there for the breeding and then brought back since the breeder is American. I doubt the SV will recognize any titles/awards not given by an SV judge (so anything USCA) but again, I don't see why this matters unless you want to SV register American-bred litters? I asked about this when I USCA registered my dogs and was told there was no reason to pay more for SV dual which is not actual SV registration anyway so I registered both just the USCA so that I can do a USCA breed survey and/or participate in their Sieger Show if I choose.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Interesting...
I will double check with my breeder about the rules to breed in Germany, but I am certain you are correct Lies. I don't know why I thought the dog has to have SV recognized titles, koer and ratings to breed in Germany. I think I am confusing SV reg litters with German studs used for breeding with foreign bitches. You are right that her litters will be registered under the AKC as she will whelp here. 

I wanted to get my trial forms postmarked by Nov 1, but I'm cutting it very close as I don't have her registration # or scorebook #! I might just end up having to swallow the late fee for this one...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well under the SV you are right, but we live in the USA and thus do not have to follow SV rules. Our dogs are AKC registered. As far as I know the USCA registration is just some random thing we have to do if we want USCA breed surveys or showing adult dogs at the Sieger Show (or maybe it's a money-maker). I thought in order for a dog to have real SV papers the dog would have been registered with the SV at birth.

Now if you want to SV register your litters then I think you are right about getting SV registration and following their rules for titles but I do not see why this would matter unless you plan to move to Germany permanently. My dog is not SV registered but was conceived in Germany by an SV male. He is AKC registered as is his dam and as will be his progeny. To register him we had to fill out an additional form from the AKC (we faxed it to the stud owner in Germany and he signed off, since the stud is not AKC registered).

Depending on where you live, if you must do everything through the SV you might severely limit your opportunities because that means only doing WDA events that have SV judges. This is why I am a USCA member. USCA will accept show cards and titles awarded by SV judges at WDA events. They don't like it but they have no choice. Since I am a USCA member I can do USCA events with my dogs but also do WDA events because they don't always require that you are a member and if they do, that is what my co-owner (husband) is for.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

> (or maybe it's a money-maker)


 :thumbup:

For now, I am not planning on trying to get pink papers on her litters. I very much doubt any of her progeny will show or breed in Germany exclusively. If for some vague reason that happened, I can just get her titled under a SV judge at that time. 

Yes, you are right. My female's dam was also bred to a SV male and the dam is 3rd generation Am. bred. All pups had regular AKC papers and I don't think the dam had anything special over the normal USA titles/kkl1/V and AKC papers. 

There aren't many WDA events around me - USA is the way to go for sure. Good call on the co-owner setup. I finally have some motivation to wrangle a husband! 

haha I never realized I had it so easy on co-ownerships. What a pain to navigate through it all by yourself! 

I think I will end up just doing the USA reg. I suppose for some reason if I change my mind, I can just get dual reg done later. The dual reg is more involved anyhow, and I am not sure if I have the time to get that done in time for the trial.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep that is what I did and so far have had no reason to add the additional registration. In fact I still do not understand the point of the USCA paper since my dogs are already fully AKC registered with a certified pedigree, but whatev!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Only dogs born in Germany get "pink papers" - ie - Full SV registration....if you want to do hip ratings, or koer with an SV judge - then the USA/SV - if you are just going to show under the USA judges and don't care about the koer 'counting' - regardless of breeding here as opposed to in Germany (all you really need for THAT is an AKC 4 gen pedigree anyway!)....

USCA wants dogs - and litters - registered with THEM to be shown etc...it is simply a revenue stream - 

I usually do the USCA/SV because I like the German judges (carefully selected ones anyway!) better than the USA (conformation)

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But USCA/SV judges are still not the same as SV. USCA/SV koerung doesn't count either.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I was reading through this article by F. Lanting and this is his take on AKC reg dogs required to be a part of other member organizations:

"In the U.S., “Is your dog registered?” or, further south, “Hey, Bubba, is yo’ dawg pedigreed?” to most people means “Does the AKC have records of your dog’s ancestry and do they attest to its purity and the pedigree’s accuracy?” Until DNA started to become popular or required, those assurances from AKC were worth no more than anybody else’s. Most of us know how easy it was for a puppy mill to “register” pups, using “papers” from phantom, perhaps never-existed, parents. Even with random inspections, the puppy farm could easily say that the parents had been given away or sold, or had died. The notorious traffic in “little blue pieces of paper” (now different color and bigger) is what made AKC’s treasury so fat and their army of lawyers and bureaucrats so large. *Thus, millions of dogs have been presented as both purebred and having descended from certain ancestors, while a substantial percentage actually had different parentage than shown on the “certified” registration or pedigree papers. Different organizations have different confidence levels in the public minds.* For example, the modern SV (German GSD club) pedigrees are perhaps the most accurate in the world, partly because of the Teutonic discipline and (more recently) partly because DNA samples must now be taken and recorded. Stiff penalties will be meted to those who attempt to cheat now. Even before the advent of DNA, fewer cases of fraud had been practiced in Germany than in the U.S.; therefore, the registrations were more meaningful, on average. I can give you a handwritten pedigree and say the pup you buy from me is “registered” with my own registry (filing cabinet, computer), or I can give you that AKC paper, which might be no more accurate but carries more widespread recognition, or I could give you the SV Ahnentafel-pedigree (or equivalent) accompanied by the DNA certifications and a kit for you to send in a DNA sample of the pup if you wanted proof of the parentage."

So I suppose in a way, you could argue that additional breed-specific registries increase the confidence levels about the legitimacy of the dog's pedigree, titles, etc. 

I just wish there was one organization to join with a clear cut fee structure and application process. Figuring out this bureaucratic nonsense is almost enough to make you get out of dogs!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> But USCA/SV judges are still not the same as SV. USCA/SV koerung doesn't count either.


Yes this is what my trainer has also said to me. We had this discussion in relation to J. Grewe.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It is my understanding that Grewe's surveys may not hold up in Germany. It's not stopping me from doing it anyway, since like we've been saying I live, train, and breed dogs in the USA not in Germany so I don't care what the SV thinks of my dogs or their titles. If I wanted a breed survey that would for sure hold up in Germany I would do the WDA ones with SV judges (not judges with some SV designation tacked on but judges that fly from Germany), however since I have OFAs instead of a-stamps I'm doing Grewe's survey. Since I have no plans to breed dogs under the German system being an American resident/citizen I'm not going to spend extra money to get more papers and hip/elbow certs my dog already has.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

a Koer under an SV judge with a dog registered in Germany with the SV via USA show "counts" the same as if you took the dog to Germany and koered there under the same judge - at least according to the Head HGH judge (conformation and trial). If I want to take my female over to Germany, whelp a litter conceived in Germany, that litter would get regular pink papers.

And if you take a pup from here, from untitled, unkoered parents, to Germany wiht your 4 gen AKC pedigree you can register that pup with the SV. I actually know of a litter who had AKC papers from an untitled female get full pink papers from teh SV...the actual physical location of birth is a bit questionable...but the female got AKC papers, whelped the litter, it was registered here....and then the pups were sold in Germany and registered there.........

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> a Koer under an SV judge with a dog registered in Germany with the SV via USA show "counts" the same as if you took the dog to Germany and koered there under the same judge - at least according to the Head HGH judge (conformation and trial).


Yes if it's an SV judge, but a "USCA/SV" judge (Grewe) is not the same as a USCA club hosting an event and bringing over an SV judge. Most of the events I've seen in my area use the USCA/SV judges instead of bringing in SV judges (though the WDA surveys always bring in SV judges).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Liesje said:


> Yes if it's an SV judge, but a "USCA/SV" judge (Grewe) is not the same as a USCA club hosting an event and bringing over an SV judge. Most of the events I've seen in my area use the USCA/SV judges instead of bringing in SV judges (though the WDA surveys always bring in SV judges).



I am very very well aware that Grewe "does not count" LOLLOL LOL Scheld redid a dog that Grewe had seen and had quite a bit to say about it! LOL LOL

Scheld also made a point in a seminar about functional conformation that a straighter shoulder is not to be penalized in a working dog as it does NOT inhibit the dog's endurance, that the last 3 HGH National champions in Germany were straight shouldered dogs who worked sheep for a living (Herr Scheld himself owned a flock of 2000 sheep and was a working shepherd for many years - his nephew has the sheep now)

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I won't get into the individual judges as I have been to plenty of events and have been in the ring (as a photographer, so I get to hear what they are saying under their breath in German, not what they are saying to the crowd in the official critique) with almost every possibility already, I was just confused by the wording of your original post, it seemed to imply that the "USCA/SV" is what people want for a German recognized Koerung.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You don't need USCA or USCA/SV registration to breed a bitch to a dog in Germany. You don't need titles by SV judges. Heck, you probably don't need a titled bitch either depending on the stud dog owner. My SchH3 OFA hip/elbow bitch with no survey bred and born in the USA had no problems breeding to a male in Germany and then registering the puppies in the USA. The only time it matters is if you plan on breeding dogs in Germany (dogs born here can not legally be registered with the SV). 


USCA's judges went through the SV program so that our working titles were recognized for dogs showing and trialing in Germany and for breed surveys. Breed surveys themselves would still need to be done under an SV judge/Körmeister as far as I know.

I refuse to be held hostage by the SV for my dog's elbow ratings so I am perfectly happy to do everything through USCA.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

BTW, the USCA/SV registration currently costs $104. The price on the website is wrong.


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