# How is this bad?



## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Hi all, just responding and defending my position on large GSDs. Just because the parents are large breeding stock doesn't make the puppies that they MAKE AVAILABLE bad. The responsible breeders only release the puppies that they advertise as their specialty.

Just because the parents are over 100, the responsible breeders only let go the reaonably-sized puppies. 

Eva is now 79 lbs at 2 1/2 years. Her parents were signifigantly larger. She has no anxiety, never chewed, is pefect inside for 8+ hours, house-trained herself, still doesn't chew, doesn't jump on people, and doesn't even react to the doorbell. She does what I do. Amazing dog, I only nurtured her instincts, she trained herself. Great with kids, strangers, and alternate folks, but knows immediately when someone is acting strangely or suspiciously. Gooooood shepherd....

She is an incredible companion.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't think anyone said YOUR dog was bad. Breeding very oversized dogs is bad. My dog is over the standard. Lots of people on this board have dogs over standard. Breeding them is bad though.


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## Eva von Selah (May 7, 2010)

Breeding them grossly over-standard, I agree is not responsible.

My point is that certain, "non-standard" breeding stock can produce wonderful, standard dogs, as well as wonderful non-standard dogs. Eva is amazing; she has none of the problems frequently mentioned here and I don't know why. Only know for sure that the breeder said she was bred for this behavior. She just licks babies, and is extremely pretective of them. She is a registered GSD with well-documented German lines and lives up to her claims. She is med- to high-drive when necessary, but inside she is a mop!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Who are her "well documented german lines" from?

And what do you mean the breeder only lets the reasonably sized ones go? How can she tell who is reasonably sized at 8 weeks (assuming thats when their puppies leave)? What does she do with all of the puppies who are not "reasonably sized"?

On a side note, i'm very jealous of your property. It looks like doggie heaven.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And why does she advertise with "Old Fashioned King Size Dogs" then. 

Eva, those lines you are talking about are waaaaaaaaaaaay back in line. We've seen the pedigree of her father and you have to dig for those lines and they wouldn't even show up in the papers anymore. 

While Eva (your dog) itself is a wonderful dog, breeding like that is irresponsible. They may be loving dog owners and care for their dogs but the breeding program itself is irresponsible because it turns the GSD into something he is not!

He is not suppossed to be a superbig overly large dog. He is supposed to be medium size. 

Everybody says that I can't find a rental place with three large dogs. I DON'T HAVE LARGE DOGS! THEY ARE FRICKIN MEDIUM SIZE!!!

I am always asked why my shepherds are so skinny and tiny. THAT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE WITHIN THE STANDARD AND THEY ARE NOT SKINNY, THEY ARE ATHLETIC AND JUST NOT FAT!

It aggrevates me. It really starts aggrevating me because people don't know what a shepherd really looks like anymore. All they know is those big ass oversized dogs, either from showlines or from old fashioned breeders.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh, and do you know how hard Breeders in Germany work to have a good working dog out there because the GSD has been crippled and turned into something he's not?

It went even as far that there now is a new German Shepherd Club called RSV2000 which concentrates on breeding working dogs and working dogs only (as far as I know). 

Over here you can't even breed dogs like that. You have to go through a breeding evaluation and if they don't their offspring would never be registered as a GSD and receive those valuable pink papers. 

Being OFA certified is not enough to breed dogs over here. 

It amazes me... that all AKC is asking for is OFA certification and that's it and even though they have a standard for the GSD they don't enforce it and let it happen that it is turned into an elephant.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> It went even as far that there now is a new German Shepherd Club called RSV2000 which concentrates on breeding working dogs and working dogs only (as far as I know).











I am not sure how many United States RSV2000 members there are?, but I am a proud member/supporter, and have been for two years now. I simply send them €60.00 (Euros) each year to support the work Helmut Raiser and RSV2000 are doing to sustain/promote the working line GSD.

Any other RSV2000 members here?

Wayne


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I went to the RSV2000 site yesterday. Funny you should mention it. I was wondering how the organization is fairing. Do you get communication from them?

As far as breeding non-standard dogs, just because someone gets a pet they like does not justify it in my mind. Good dogs can be obtained by breeding within the standard.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Samba said:


> As far as breeding non-standard dogs, just because someone gets a pet they like does not justify it in my mind. Good dogs can be obtained by breeding within the standard.


Agreed. Especially when you can get anything you want-- oversize, undersize, blues, livers, long coats, etc-- through rescue.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

27 inches at the withers (26 +,- 1 inch) and 90 pounds *is a big dog* when compared to a Shitzalop.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Samba said:


> I went to the RSV2000 site yesterday. Funny you should mention it. I was wondering how the organization is fairing. Do you get communication from them?


I have received routine email communication from Eugine Ecker that includes a monthly bulletin, and usually weekly emails on meetings at the compentency centers, trials, and the such. Recently they have started to publish the bulletins in English & Spanish!! So no more Babelfish translation or asking my German Au Pair to read them to me. I interpret this as organizational growth.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Just because the parents are over 100, the responsible breeders *only let go the reaonably-sized puppies. *


_And what do they do with the unreasonably sized puppies?_

Nobody said your dog was bad. In fact, it was stated that your dog is not terribly oversized so I'm a bit confused on why you seem to think you've been dealt a great insult.

Let me ask this....

We've all stated why they shouldn't be oversized. The GSD was bred to be a medium sized dog. That was the original intent. That is the breed standard. It's been said over and over and over. Along with many other reasons that address the size issue only.
*
So why do you think breeding an oversized dog is a good thing? *Temperament does NOT have a single thing to do with size so please stick to your original question and only address the size issue.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> _And what do they do with the unreasonably sized puppies?_


Soylent Green.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok..I had to look that up!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess I dont understand the need to defend one's dog. 

While I personally, do not agree with breeding for size or color. To each his own. Your dog sounds like a wonderful girl that I'm sure loves you as much as you love her.

Who cares what someone else thinks? To each his own.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I guess I dont understand the need to defend one's dog.
> 
> While I personally, do not agree with breeding for size or color. To each his own. Your dog sounds like a wonderful girl that I'm sure loves you as much as you love her.
> 
> Who cares what someone else thinks? To each his own.


I think it's more of the idea of breeding dogs bigger than the standard than the OP's opinion of his own dog. It's the idea of breeding "oversized" GSD's that get people hot, but the OP feels it's ok if they're producing quality dogs with good temperments i guess.

I agree, to each his own, but when does "his own" get to be too much and german shepherds are the size of great danes? When is the line drawn? What's the point of a standard if breeders aren't going to follow it?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> I have received routine email communication from Eugine Ecker that includes a monthly bulletin, and usually weekly emails on meetings at the compentency centers, trials, and the such. Recently they have started to publish the bulletins in English & Spanish!! So no more Babelfish translation or asking my German Au Pair to read them to me. I interpret this as organizational growth.


The Open German Championships were held last week. It wasn't all that great and I guess they know where they stand now. 

First nine ranks went to malinois and one German Shepherd ranked place 10 ... especially since the RSV2000 stirred up such a riot about competence and stuff like that a lot of people expected much much more. 

So there has to be a lot of work done.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lucy, as long as there are buyers for those oversized dogs, there will be people breeding them, simple as that. When the market for them dries up, which will never happen, only then they will fade away.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> The Open German Championships were held last week. It wasn't all that great and I guess they know where they stand now.
> 
> First nine ranks went to malinois and one German Shepherd ranked place 10 ... especially since the RSV2000 stirred up such a riot about competence and stuff like that a lot of people expected much much more.
> 
> So there has to be a lot of work done.



Completely off topic, but...

Considering the average age of dogs at high level competition, and when RSV2000 really got off the ground, I'm not sure how an organization that is very new, and geared toward breeding can be blamed for the performance of dogs who were bred, born, raised, trained, and probably earned their first half dozen SchH3s before that organization really got going.:shrug:

Back on topic...

There is nothing "bad" about an oversized dog. Or undersized dog or blue dog or liver dog or soft eared dog or any number of other physical traits. It's still a dog, still a GSD, still worthy of love and quite capable of being someone's best friend.

But most do consider it "bad" to breed specifically for such things, or for any trait, accepted or not, at the expense of other, more important things.

When people speak out against oversized dogs, they are not referring to people who have these dogs and love these dogs, but to people specifically breeding for it. Huge, huge difference.

As as far as only placing "reasonably sized pups", that makes no sense. If someone only wants to produce those, then breed for those. Not to mention it is impossible to look at a young pup and know if it will grow up to be one of the "reasonably" sized ones or "unreasonably" sized ones.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Eva - NOBODY in any of the threads has said that your dog is not a good dog because her parents were oversized. What people are objecting to is the INTENTIONAL breeding of out-of-standard dogs, whether this is in size, color, or abilities. 

When people breed dogs that are outside the standard in size, and then advertise them as "King Size" or "Old-Fashioned Large" Shepherds, they are catering to a specific market of people who want oversized dogs. When people breed blue Shepherds or liver Shepherds and market them as "rare colors", they are also catering to a specific market of people, people who want dogs that are outside the standard in color.

What folks don't understand is that this is NOT German Shepherd breeding anymore. The breed exists because there is a breed standard that says, "Dogs in this breed should have the following correct attributes," and "Dogs that have these attributes - (list here) - should be disqualified from the standard because they don't represent the breed."

So when someone specifically breeds for something that is outside the standard, and primarily for that purpose, then they are not breeding German Shepherds. They're breeding a dog that comes from German Shepherds, but they're choosing to ignore the fact that the standard determines what makes the breed.

When a breeder mates two dogs that are over 30" at the shoulder and much beyond 100lbs in weight, then the breeder knows that this litter will produce puppies that will, by and large, turn out to be ABOVE the standard. Breeding two big dogs = big puppies. While there may be exceptions in the litter and sizes always vary among a litter, when you breed two big dogs, you will primarily get big puppies. And that is NOT responsible breeding because it's breeding outside of the standard.



> Just because the parents are over 100, the responsible breeders only let go the reaonably-sized puppies.


Nonsense. 

Breeders who mate overly large dogs do so because they are advertising for and catering to a market that wants oversized dogs. If people were looking for "to-the-standard" dogs, they would not seek out a breeder who advertises their dogs as ""Old Fashioned King Size Dogs". 

Breeders may keep puppies back, but in my experience, it's primarily puppies that the breeder thinks will be their next working / show / breeding prospect, not a puppy that falls outside their breeding goal.

In the case of this particular breeder, I have a very hard time believing that the breeder would mate two overly large dogs and advertise them as "old fashioned King Size" dogs, and then keep all the oversized dogs and only sell the standard (or close-to-standard) pups they've produced. They'd end up with more dogs than they're selling, for one. And it would defeat their breeding purpose, too, if they said, "We breed for King Size, but we're only selling the normal-size pups." Huh? Makes no sense.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> The Open German Championships were held last week. It wasn't all that great and I guess they know where they stand now.
> 
> First nine ranks went to malinois and one German Shepherd ranked place 10 ... especially since the RSV2000 stirred up such a riot about competence and stuff like that a lot of people expected much much more.
> 
> So there has to be a lot of work done.


It has been three years, so I would be inclined to allow for organizational growth, then maybe look for organizational accomplishment.

I would be more inclided to trust your view since you're in Germany and have a much better seat than I from which to judge.

At the same time, one could argue that Mals taking the top ten slots is exactly why the RSV should exist for the long-term??? Maybe this is best for another thread?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Eva von Selah said:


> Hi all, just responding and defending my position on large GSDs...


I am still a little confused on what your position is. Maybe you can define it a little more clearly.



> I do think it's okay within the right parameters.
> 
> Why is the "standard" weight set where it is? Cannot there be perfectly healthy dogs 10 lbs above this "standard"? ... I don't want to see a 130+ lb male Shepherd as a norm nor do I want to see a 100+ lb female as a norm. But there is room for responsible breeders of these larger, pure GSDs.


This is part of a statement that you made in the previous thread and the main thing that I disagree with you on. A standard is a standard is a standard. That IS the right parameters, not a few over or a few under. Outside of that is non-standard. It is pretty black and white. 

Even the best breeder in the world will breed a dog that is out of standard. What I personally take issue with is a breeder that PURPOSELY breeds outside of standard based on their preferences. Doesn't matter whether it is weight, height, temperament, slope...

My Bison is over height by about an inch and weight by about 7 lbs and my PREFERENCE and I love having a large dog, but that doesn't change the fact that he is not standard and therefore not correct. 

What if a breeder bred GSDs exclusively for floppy ears? Or one that bred for miniature GSDs? Or one that bread for curly tails? Would that be OK?


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Alright, I've mentioned this in another thread, but this is most of the email from a breeder, and it completely turned me against the "over-sized" breeders. I'll let you read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions:




> My dogs tend to be very healthy because they are the old lines none of the new stuff that has so many problems I do test free of DM as well and well as OFA certify hips and elbows.. I stay away from the german shutzhund lines on purpose, been there done that, sickest dogs ever, will never go there again I do not like to breed that type of temper either a good shutzhund dog is hyper intense and very nervous the more nervous the better so the auto immune stuff is always so extreme with nervous dogs so I stay away bit I like a strong tempered dog, but not a hyper dog... and for a good sport dog the more hyper and nervous the better- sorry just not my thing been there done that will never go back coul'dnt even really guarantee them now I have the longest guarantee like what I got now alot better been doing these line for 25 years and I will never go back to the german lines..best way to prevent gastrointestinal problems, cancer, or allergies is to not nueter or spay untill much older! does not mean I want you to breed only that hormones do alot more then sex. the younger you spay or neuter the sicker the dog will be., you will also loose at least two years on overall age... Oh your german lines will also seldom get along with cats or other dogs the intensity for the prey drive is to high shutzhund needs a very high prey drive to do well...


I don't know why it gets smaller at the end, it did that in the email. She must have copied and pasted that part from something, I guess. Just reading it wrecks my brain.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

blackviolet said:


> alright, i've mentioned this in another thread, but this is most of the email from a breeder, and it completely turned me against the "over-sized" breeders. I'll let you read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wow!


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

codmaster said:


> wow!


Ha, I know. What else can you say, right?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

blackviolet said:


> Alright, I've mentioned this in another thread, but this is most of the email from a breeder, and it completely turned me against the "over-sized" breeders. I'll let you read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you serious?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

blackviolet said:


> Alright, I've mentioned this in another thread, but this is most of the email from a breeder, and it completely turned me against the "over-sized" breeders. I'll let you read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They spelled schutzhund wrong!(i think i did too.lol)


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> Are you serious?


*I couldn't make this sh*t up. *It's rather mind-blowing. Even if you knew nothing about GSD's, how could you believe anything she says after trying to read through that train wreck? The level of ignorance in that breeder is appalling.

On a good note, she may be one of the only "over-sized GSD" breeders that does certify hips, elbows and tests for DM.


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