# reaction to anesthetic?



## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, just wanted to see if anyone else had experienced this before. We took our pup in today to be spayed and we got a call from the Vet a few hours later saying she had a reaction to the anesthesia. Basically her heart rate went up and breathing became laboured so they didn't go ahead with the surgery. She said (via the Vet nurse) she would try again with a different anesthetic in 10 days but will do tests the day before. It's made me quite nervous now. My partner was angry that the Vet didn't see us herself when we came by as we had questions, so we're still not understanding what it all means. I'm reading info online blaming the Vet for these things, saying it's typically something they've done wrong. She's the only Vet we have as we live rural. Hoping others may have some personal experiences with something like this? I'm nervous about sending Zelda back next week.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes, unfortunately Mikko went into cardiac arrest 2 1/2 weeks ago while he was under anesthesia for a MRI. They revived him and he has been healthy since then. Went back last week to see a cardiologist to check his heart - which is perfect. So, no real reason for the incident. I am starting to wonder if there is a bad batch of one of the drugs or something, if that makes sense. I've heard of several problems lately, including an old friend of mine who died. Maybe I'm just more aware now that it happened to us.

I would have an EKG for her and get her heart checked.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

My Clumber spaniel had a reaction to the anesthetic during her spay...she was 6 months on the dot....they said her heart stopped...they revived her then did and EKG and other tests to makes sure she didn't have an on going heart issue. She didn't....she lived a nice healthy life....she was never put under again. This was in German way back in 2002.

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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Get the pre-testing done for sure and request a meeting with the vet beforehand to discuss options, I think that will help ease your worries. 

Personally I've gone through surgery twice under GA and reacted badly both times, last time I stopped breathing and they had to intubate and bring me back. Sometimes you just react regardless which unfortunately seems to be my case. No rhyme or reason and pretesting was fine. So I'm a serious worrywart when it comes to surgery but thankfully both of mine have come through with flying colours and no complications


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What tests? "She said (via the Vet nurse) she would try again with a different anesthetic in 10 days but will do tests the day before."

Did she have blood work done before?

One thing I would do, which will create a delay beyond a week, is to have her MDR1 tested: busteralert.org and http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/drugs.aspx I actually didn't have my herding breed supermix tested, we are just going to assume he's mutant and have avoided meds on the WSU list. 

I would also ask about a bleeding time test. 

Honestly, I am fairly rural too, but might consider, after such a bad reaction, looking to see where my nearest place with an in-room anesthesiologist would be and check into that, and would be looking into all the testing people have mentioned. 

Good though that they caught it and were monitoring well enough to do so! 

Good luck.


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## SDG (Jul 30, 2013)

Heart rate going up is not as troubling to me as "labored breathing". I would ask for tests NOW, not the day before surgery. Remember, there is no rush to get her spayed. Waiting another month or more until you find out exactly what happened would give more peace of mind.


There is a condition in humans called Malignant Hyperthermia where they cannot metabolize certain anesthetic agents. This is hereditary and can also occur in dogs. It is so serious in humans that operating room staff have regular drills covering what to do in the event of this emergency. 

I think you need more information before exposing her to anesthesia again. Please keep us posted...and you have all my best wishes for the health of your girl.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

First reaction is to always blame the vet for everything. 

Sometimes an animal just reacts to anesthetic, as do people. Find out what they used what the next choice will be and what tests they want to run and why.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Can't say the vet did anything wrong. Could have just been her body. There is always a risk with anesthesia. 

I reacted to anesthetic myself, scared the dickens out of my doctors. 

It is too early to spay her anyway, she is only 5 months old. 

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

Yes, there are always risks with any surgery. Preop tests can help. I agree, I would NOT rush another surgery, especially in the time frame you mentioned. Do not feel the need to rush the spay- IMHO, Bob


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> It is too early to spay her anyway, she is only 5 months old.
> 
> Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs


We have not been to the OP's house, know how they manage their dog, and then how their neighbors in the rural area in which they live manage theirs. Some people are comfortable making a choice to spay or neuter earlier than others and have reasons to do so. They could potentially live someplace like Hazzard, KY where they put down more dogs in a day than a similar population sized place in NYS does in a year - partly because of wide roaming intact animals. Regardless, some think there are good reasons to do so and not as definitive as the statement above would lead you to believe. 

Some other information here - pediatric (which 5 months I believe is outside that range) Early Spay & Neuter 

I am always surprised when I see linking to the Mercola site (I see it a lot here). I would think that it would be indicative of a less than science based point of view as it's under that site's umbrella. But whatever, people reading can evaluate.

I do agree that there is time - there is no other way to do it - to get the needed information to make this a safe procedure.


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Thank for the replies everyone, as I stated in my opening post we were disappointed that the Vet didn't come out and speak with us so all we know is she had a reaction to the anesthetic, which makes us uneasy. So I'm looking for info and advice on things we should look into before we just put her under to try again. I will be calling my Vet today to bring up some of what has been mentioned, so thanks again for the responses.

SDG - regarding Malignant Hyperthermia, would that be something I could ask her breeder about if it is hereditary? I'm wary to mention medical issues with my breeder in case they take it personally.

I don't think it hurts to be wary of what goes on in Vet clinics. I know her typical assistant, who is a lovely lady, is away on holiday at the moment so she has another lady filling in over the holidays. The lady filling in was the one who spoke to us after it happened and she had no info to give us, just basically shrugged. We also have a mobile vet in town who has a terrible reputation - she gave our pup meds she didn't need when we first came to town, and when we mentioned this to a friend she told us that vet advised friend's of hers to hold their pups head in a sort of claw grip and hold them to the ground to get them to submit. They did this and their pup had a seizure. She's not well liked.

We were advised to spay her at 5-6 months, and it suited us to do it now as I work at a school and it's currently school holidays so I'm home to take care of her post-surgery. She is almost 6 months so the timing fitted in well. We do live rural with a lot of wild intact dogs roaming through town from the local indigenous community (our pet shelter is overloaded), though we're not that concerned as she is kept inside most of the time. I've never had a pup go through heat and not sure I want to honestly.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Did she even know what anesthetic was used? I can think of the more common protocols, but depending on when she was having issues and what measures they had gone to before the actual procedure was going to take place and the like, it could be any number of things that she reacted to. 

I can think of a few different protocols that have the medications in and out of their system fairly quickly, and I would wonder what they were using for pre-medications and induction medications. Generally speaking, it would be one of those rather than the inhalant that is the issue. If you got any of that, it could have been helpful to figure it out. Then again, depending on what was happening and the situation, patients who are experiencing pain under anesthesia often do have a high heart rate and can breathe more deeply. Did they say that her gum color changed any? Did they have an ECG on to look for arrhythmias? Did her blood pressure get high or drop suddenly? I can think of a lot of things that could happen, but it usually is speculation if you weren't there to see the case. 

Did they mention tremors, seizures or a high temperature? Malignant hyperthermia has those things besides high heart rate, respiratory rate, blood pressure. If they are still using halothane, that was the big trigger, but the Isoflurane that is more common now isn't as bad. Generally sighthounds are the ones that we worry the most about with that condition, but any animal who is going under anesthesia should get an exam before going under, even if it is a quick look over and listen. The vets I work with don't like anything going under without listening and looking them over first.

Anesthesia is my favorite part of my job. I'm actually working on getting a VTS in Anesthesia. Basically specialty for vet techs.  The clinic I work at gets all the scary cases that others don't tend to want. Sadly, not all clinics or people in the field are as good as others. Hopefully you can get some more answers from the vet.


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks heaps for the reply, it's given me more questions to ask. The assistant didn't tell us anything about anesthetia used or any other symptoms. She didn't seem to have a clue about anything unfortunately, hence my uneasiness. I'd have thought the vet would at least have given her a note or something but we just got told to re-arrange to have the procedure the next week once the anesthesia was completely out of her system. She said they'd use a different one. She did say they were shaving her belly at the time they had to monitor her heart rate and breathing and that it hadn't settled by the time they were done so they decided not to go ahead with it, so dunno if that might give an indication of which stage of the procedure they were at and what might have caused it specifically?


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

I know you mentioned that she is the only vet available but is it possible to call other vets out of your area and run the incident by them for a second opinion? I know most won't give advice without seeing the dog but it might not hurt?


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Give the part of the procedure that they were in, that is usually fairly early on. If she wasn't settling into the anesthesia I would wonder about the endotracheal tube they were using being in too deeply. It is a common thing that happens, and it causes them to be lighter rather than under anesthesia properly. The fix is simple there. It sounds like they were only watching a few parameters, which means you have to be more aware of the signs of your patient. 

Most of the drugs that are used around anesthesia will be out of their system by the end of that day. Some wear off quickly and some need to be metabolized and removed. Ketamine is probably the longest lasting in the system as you can't metabolize it. Others get changed and eliminated. There are drugs that can make the heart rate higher too, which is sometimes used as a pre-med. 

There are a lot of things that can happen. Anesthesia is not without risk, but there is a saying that there are no safe anesthetics there is only safe anesthetists. 


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeah, a second opinion is definitely in the plan  I wanted to get all the info from the vet before I rang another vet though.

I appreciate the info Colie CVT, I will post again once I get hold of the vet (tried calling but told she's busy and to call back in a few hours) and get some more info.


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## SDG (Jul 30, 2013)

njk said:


> SDG - regarding Malignant Hyperthermia, would that be something I could ask her breeder about if it is hereditary? I'm wary to mention medical issues with my breeder in case they take it personally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

You are welcome! I could go on about anesthesia for days lol. I am very passionate about it and about it being done well. It is one of the most dangerous things that we do, simply because you remove consciousness and push the body's natural functions down so that you can safely do the required procedure. 

I hope the vet has more information for you! If anything you should know what the drugs used were so that you know what to warn anyone else who may have to place your girl under that she didn't do so well with it. 


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You should also ask to see a copy of her records which, hopefully, will show what preanesthetic they used, what gas she was on, etc. And also, how much of each was used. There should be very detailed records on what she did, how she reacted, etc.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Hey Collie - since you know so much about anesthesia can I ask you a question? What are possible causes of cardiac arrest under anesthesia? My dog was having an MRI done at a vet hospital (so separate team of anesthesia specialists) and went into cardiac arrest while they were positioning him for the MRI. Now, it is too risky to do the surgery that he needs  The neurologist said it could have been a freak reaction (has since had an echocardiogram and his heart is perfectly normal). Are there any other possible causes? Thanks!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

There are many things that could happen. What was the reason for your dog to have the MRI? Depending on the condition that could be a factor in it. Other things could be as simple as he got too deep under anesthesia (it is often referred to as controlled death) and his heart slowed considerably because of it. Things with the spinal cord seem to have different anesthesia than the average patient. 

Each animal is an individual. We tend to have protocols for things, but it isn't really one size fits all. The only random cardiac arrest I heard of happening where I work was a dog who was getting a hemilaminectomy. One moment he was fine, the next his heart just stopped. They got it going again, but they obviously were nervous about it. It is why you have to really pay attention to the patient and what is happening at every stage of the game. 

I could probably give some ideas, but knowing why the dog needed an MRI could help direct it more. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Call the vet's office and ASK them what anesthetic was used, and keep a record of this. Do NOT expect that since they have seen this reaction they will never use it again on your dog. You need to know what it is so you can tell them, or any ER that you may have to take the dog to down the road that your dog will react to this.

Keep it in your wallet, or on your car key chain. 

We think that since our dogs have a chart, and they have been treated somewhere, they will have it red flagged or something. They may. They may not. Now you know about this, and they will give you the information. Because it is information you need for your dog.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Colie CVT said:


> There are many things that could happen. What was the reason for your dog to have the MRI? Depending on the condition that could be a factor in it. Other things could be as simple as he got too deep under anesthesia (it is often referred to as controlled death) and his heart slowed considerably because of it. Things with the spinal cord seem to have different anesthesia than the average patient.
> 
> Each animal is an individual. We tend to have protocols for things, but it isn't really one size fits all. The only random cardiac arrest I heard of happening where I work was a dog who was getting a hemilaminectomy. One moment he was fine, the next his heart just stopped. They got it going again, but they obviously were nervous about it. It is why you have to really pay attention to the patient and what is happening at every stage of the game.
> 
> ...


Thanks! The MRI was for Wobblers disease (to determine where he needs discs put in). They told me that he was fine one minute and the next he arrested  it was awful. They won't put him under at all now unless the risk of not doing surgery becomes greater than the risk of anesthesia, which for me is probably never...


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> We have not been to the OP's house, know how they manage their dog, and then how their neighbors in the rural area in which they live manage theirs. Some people are comfortable making a choice to spay or neuter earlier than others and have reasons to do so. They could potentially live someplace like Hazzard, KY where they put down more dogs in a day than a similar population sized place in NYS does in a year - partly because of wide roaming intact animals. Regardless, some think there are good reasons to do so and not as definitive as the statement above would lead you to believe.
> 
> Some other information here - pediatric (which 5 months I believe is outside that range) Early Spay & Neuter
> 
> ...


Great info!!
I am so tired of everyone jumping on the OMG do not spay or neuter your dog!! bandwagon!
that is not what this thread is about
not to mention that while rare it is not unheard of for any dog of any age to react badly to anesthesia
although in our case bradycardia (where the HR slows too much) was more of a culprit than speeding hr
good luck with the preanesthesia tests op
at least your vet stopped the surgery and did not go through with it
that is a good sign


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Wobblers is an instability in the cervical spine, which is where some really important parts of the brain ends in. It kind of seems that something with pressure around the brain or probably more importantly the brain stem can cause trouble under anesthesia. That would potentially be another case to see what it was that could have caused it. We have one protocol that we use with really critical patients that tends to work. I have a feeling it was potentially in the movement rather than in the drugs being used in that case, just given that you are dealing with the cervical spine region. 

Scariest moment I had early on in my career was the first time that I did anesthesia on a dog who was getting a ventral slot (basically opposite side of a dorsal laminectomy which is what I believe Wobblers dogs get). When I was weaning her off of the positive pressure ventilator, I realized quickly that something was wrong. When she tried to breathe, nothing happened. She literally looked like a fish out of water. I immediately turned the anesthesia back on and started breathing for her, calling for the surgeon. There is a side effect to that surgery where they wake up without the ability to breathe. Her disk spot was higher in her neck, and it took a few huge doses of steroids, time and we actually did a tracheostomy on her in order to let her wake up, but use the surgical ventilator (since then we have one for critical care) to breathe for her. 

It was absolutely terrifying to have happen and I had to go see her the day after to ensure myself she was okay. I don't think I had cried tears of joy quite so much as I did that day when she wriggled her way into my arms. 

I would figure out what the drugs used were and more importantly how events unfolded. It is better to be safe than sorry in most cases, but you have to look at the patient as a whole as well as what was happening in the patient. It can often give you clues to what was happening. Not all places keep the best of notes however for that kind of thing. I think I tend to overdo it some days with mine lol.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Colie CVT said:


> Wobblers is an instability in the cervical spine, which is where some really important parts of the brain ends in. It kind of seems that something with pressure around the brain or probably more importantly the brain stem can cause trouble under anesthesia. That would potentially be another case to see what it was that could have caused it. We have one protocol that we use with really critical patients that tends to work. I have a feeling it was potentially in the movement rather than in the drugs being used in that case, just given that you are dealing with the cervical spine region.
> 
> Scariest moment I had early on in my career was the first time that I did anesthesia on a dog who was getting a ventral slot (basically opposite side of a dorsal laminectomy which is what I believe Wobblers dogs get). When I was weaning her off of the positive pressure ventilator, I realized quickly that something was wrong. When she tried to breathe, nothing happened. She literally looked like a fish out of water. I immediately turned the anesthesia back on and started breathing for her, calling for the surgeon. There is a side effect to that surgery where they wake up without the ability to breathe. Her disk spot was higher in her neck, and it took a few huge doses of steroids, time and we actually did a tracheostomy on her in order to let her wake up, but use the surgical ventilator (since then we have one for critical care) to breathe for her.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, thank you! I remember the Dr. saying something about the positioning being a possible cause - it was such a long, horrible day I had forgotten about that. And I didn't quite understand how the positioning would have cause it. But what you said makes sense. I hope I never have to make a decision about having to out him under anesthesia again...I will find out more about the drugs and everything. I'd imagine that they keep excellent notes (being a vet school hospital). Thank you again. oh by the way, they do ventral slot surgeries for many Wobblers dogs now, apparently there are over 20 types of surgeries for it!


OP - sorry to hijack your thread temporarily. Have you found anything out from the vet yet?


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Mikko, it's fine  anyone can ask anything they like in here, especially if there's someone in the know like Colie!

Unfortunately I didn't get to speak to the Vet, though understandable why - a lady in town has been looking for her beautiful white boxer pup for a few days now and the body had just been bought in by the ranger  so the Vet was busy with him, contacting the owner, and trying to determine cause of death before the Easter weekend break. Very sad. She (the assistant) did tell me though that we can get a print out of all the details and such for our private records, as many of you have recommended we do so for future Vets, and she told me they will be doing tests when I bring her in on Wednesday and the Vet may not even go ahead with the surgery at that time. She said the Vet will discuss it with me next week. She restated they wouldn't be using the same anesthetic when they do go ahead with the procedure.

So yeah  and while we still do want her spayed at around 6 months, if we have to wait longer to be sure then we definitely will. My younger sister said she forgot about dogs going through heat until her pup went through it. Like you SDG she said it wasn't that bad, but she did spay asap after that.

Thanks again everyone! I will keep you updated on what happens!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I did see this mentioned in regards to "all" herder breeds don't know but I do know that as a (former) Boxer owner (my girl passed in Nov). I made sure that they did not use Ace on her, when she had to be put under,period, end of discussion!

American Boxer Club: Warning on Acepromazine


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Even being as careful as you can, sadly the pressure can change super quickly. Instabilities in the cervical spine are really scary with the brain stem. We actually have had a few dogs who luxated their first two vertebrae! Talk about long roads to recovery but dogs are pretty awesome. 

That is a terrible thing about those poor people and their boxer.  Unfortunately, we end up having to figure things like that out, and take care of them in the end for their owners. I hope those people are okay. I am glad that they will give you copies of the record and that you will get to speak with the vet.  It could be that the assistant simply doesn't understand what happened or could have happened. I tend to be the kind who always asks why, looks into what could have been and I probably drive some of the vets I work with nuts in wanting to understand things lol. 

Ace used to be a really popular thing for a pre-medication, but honestly I don't tend to like it. It is a really powerful sedative in its own right. We tend to use it in very tiny doses for patients who are just completely out of it, and any animal who has seizures should avoid it. It will lower the threshold and tends to make it easier to happen. It is often used for sedating after procedures or around fireworks, but you definitely need to be careful with it if you don't know how your pet reacted to it. 

I love talking about veterinary medicine.  Which is good since I have actually done some teaching jobs in the past, and where I work we are at teaching facility as much as a hospital. Not as high tech as some of the universities, but we do have some pretty nifty things. ^_^


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

Just an update, they did a blood test and the vet contacted us and said everything looked fine and she can't see any reason not to go ahead with the surgery. So my partner and I made the decision to go ahead, and she did just fine. We were told she would probably be a bit drowsy when we picked her up, but we know our girl too well and sure enough she was crazy active. The vet said she pretty much bounced right out of surgery and wanted to play. We were told no playing though, so I've had to put up with her crazy biting because I'm ignoring her. She hasn't bitten in a long time so I was sad to see the return of her teeth lol anyway, the photo below is when we got her home with her cone of shame.

Thanks so much for the info Colie, and thanks everyone for the replies and help! it's been a stressful week, that's for sure.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

glad it went so well 
what a cutie!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Glad to hear that everything went well!  Puppies are pretty resilient creatures! It is hard to keep them from being active lol. My female was spayed when she was 3.5 years old and she drove me SO crazy that I let her spend the last few days of her confinement at my work so that I didn't have to deal with her howling and digging at the kennel all night lol! She was quiet there (least back then anyway lol). 

She is beautiful!


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