# Rear crosses in dog agility - timing and placement (what the heck is a lead change?)



## MaggieRoseLee

So I put together this little video to explain a bit about lead changes and rear crosses. As usual, feel free to comment and explain why the method may be different where you go to classes.


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## DJEtzel

I can't imagine some places teach you to cross in front of a jump like that, do they?? 

Frag and I just started agility about 6 weeks ago, so I'm still new to it all. We don't have a word for him to know a rear cross is coming, but I do a gradual hand motion from my left hand if he's on my left to my right coming over him as he's committed to the jump so that he knows to meet me on the left of the jump, etc. We're still working more on sendouts so that he will get far enough away from me to commit to a jump and leave me room to move behind him though! 

I liked the video, regardless!


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## wildo

How does one learn more about this "lead change" thing without finding a bunch of information about leashes. I'm not sure I'm buying that a dog naturally will turn into you ALWAYS. Pimg is *very* handed in that she will turn counter clockwise all day long (on a perch, for example) but I have to work hard to get her to even consider turning clockwise. I think that if we did the "step 2" drill in your video from the right side, she'd get the rear cross on the flat without turning into me. If we did it on the left side, she'd almost certainly turn into me. I am not sure if this has anything to do with her "lead" but more so her nature ability to turn better (and more comfortably) in one direction over the other.

So how do I research the validity of this "lead" stuff?


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## TaraM1285

There's an explanation of the Lead Leg on the agilitynerd site:

AgilityNerd : Lead Leg


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## Jax08

LOL You started talking about lead legs yesterday and i thought that it couldn't possibly be the same as horses! It's really simple! If you go in a circle, the inside leg that is out further. It's a natural thing for any animal, including us, for balance. If the dog was forced to change leads to late then his balance would be off while going over an obstacle.

With horses, according to my DD, you slow the horse down to give them two steps to adjust their stride while putting pressure on him from the opposite leg. If he were going over a jump and was on the wrong lead then he could trip or fall. She's giving him a cue from his back. I'm sure it can't be hard to teach a cue to a dog from the ground.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Jax08 said:


> LOL You started talking about lead legs yesterday and i thought that it couldn't possibly be the same as horses! It's really simple! If you go in a circle, the inside leg that is out further. It's a natural thing for any animal, including us, for balance. If the dog was forced to change leads to late then his balance would be off while going over an obstacle.
> 
> With horses, according to my DD, you slow the horse down to give them two steps to adjust their stride while putting pressure on him from the opposite leg. If he were going over a jump and was on the wrong lead then he could trip or fall. She's giving him a cue from his back. I'm sure it can't be hard to teach a cue to a dog from the ground.


Exactly. Horse people 'get it' when talking about leads. A long time ago they figured it out cause if a horse is on the wrong lead and you ask it to do something the tripping and falling and INJURIES that can occur to the rider on it's back made it very very very important. When 'horse' people started doing agility,they quickly saw the advantages of that knowledge while the rest of us are 'what'? 

Fact is, the dogs figure out that mostly we humans take the shorter path, which take the dogs around us (like we would be in the center of a pinwheel, not running the outside). This put them pretty much always on the lead that will turn them into you.

I see it all the time at class and at trials when we are late or confusing our dogs. Some dogs will try to lead change in mid air (bar down). But alot of them will either spin before or after something to adjust their lead. So we stand there thinking (some people just get mad) why didn't they just GO and what the heck made them spin. When the reality is the dog is spinning to adjust it's lead.

I personally can't watch well enough when I'm tearing thru a course to SEE 'right' lead or 'left' lead. And I don't have to. If I just remember they are on the lead to come to a turn around me (me in the center and they pull towards me) then if there is a change of direction on a course and I need to be on the OTHER side of them............. that's why I need to put in some type of cross that will change their lead.



TaraM1285 said:


> There's an explanation of the Lead Leg on the agilitynerd site:
> 
> AgilityNerd : Lead Leg


Thanks for finding that! :thumbup:


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## MaggieRoseLee

Here's a video to show the spinning, (HEY WILDO, look at the tire  ) . For the spinning, look what happens after the teeter. Where does the handler want to go and is she on the right side to pre-cue the dog and get it on the right lead?





 
You can see how she's trying to 'push' her dog into the tunnel, but what way is the dog looking and what way does the dog spin? Into her (towards her). If she'd have either reared the teeter (or fronted) or even fronted on the down contact of the teeter the spin wouldn't have happened. Crosses not only change the dogs lead, THEY GIVE THE DOG INFORMATION ON THE DIRECTION OF THE COURSE. If we cross at the wrong place, or not at all, we give them zero information.

Same handler/same course did a perfect front cross after the aframe and look how well the dog did.

And for those that are good at seeing the lead leg thing, after the weaves the handler does a weird push to the left to get the dog into the final line of jumps. Cause it's a Novice course and their is room, with a smart sheltie  the dog figures it out and changes their lead about midway to flip around to take the jump.

Watch this run: look where the handler is at the table and then see where the course goes to the weaves. Can you see why the weaves became a problem? With the curve of the course, where should she have been?


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Here's a video to show the spinning, (HEY WILDO, look at the tire  ) . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOa2Jeu9is0&feature=related


Dang it. I already rebuilt mine with no supports!! :rofl:


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## wildo

Ok, now this is really awesome. After reading through the AgilityNerd page (especially- that was a crazy good explanation) and after watching the videos MRL posted, I think I get it. And I can see how you might not "need to see what lead" they are on in order to position yourself to better the turn. The spin at the teeter solidified this for me. You can't see the dog's feet, but we can assume the lady crossed with the dog on the wrong lead.

What I disagree with is not needing to be able to see the lead foot. There will not always be times (I assume) where you can ensure you are on the proper side. It might just not be possible and you will need to cross on the flat in between two obstacles. MRL, you pointed out in the first video how she got lucky with a "smart sheltie" after the weave poles. While she may have gotten lucky, we can *clearly* see that luck had little to do with the dog's ability to turn. Check out this sequence:

1) Exiting the weave poles, both human and dog are on their right lead:









2) The human signals a turn the VERY INSTANT the dog hits its left lead (as well as the human! Left foot down!):









3) And because the cross on the flat was performed on the proper lead, the turn can take place without a spin:









So this is incredibly interesting to me. And I can totally buy that you need to be aware of this lead change thing to determine the best route through the course. But I also think it would be wise to practice spotting when the dog has a specific foot down so that a lead change can occur _wherever_ you need it to.

As to the weave pole entry in the second video, I am not sure that was a lead change issue. To me it just looked like a dog that isn't rock solid on what the "weave pole obstacle" expectations are. Neither handler nor dog actually changed directions, so there was no lead change.


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## Tbarrios333

Awesome information in this thread!


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## MaggieRoseLee

DJEtzel said:


> I can't imagine some places teach you to cross in front of a jump like that, do they??


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## wildo

:rofl:


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## DJEtzel

That just seems so painful to me. I can't believe they think it feels okay!


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> So this is incredibly interesting to me. And I can totally buy that you need to be aware of this lead change thing to determine the best route through the course. But I also think it would be wise to practice spotting when the dog has a specific foot down so that a lead change can occur _wherever_ you need it to.


If you are able to run next to your dog at top speed, keep remembering the course and your handling, and catch their lead change, then I think that's a wonderful thing. 

I know I can't do it. :wild:

*Anyone catch in my video that on Setup #2 for both Bretta AND Glory, I ran them the same. But THE DOGS didn't perform the same. Anyone know why?*

**


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> 1) Exiting the weave poles, both human and dog are on their right lead:
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> 2) The human signals a turn the VERY INSTANT the dog hits its left lead (as well as the human! Left foot down!):
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> 3) And because the cross on the flat was performed on the proper lead, the turn can take place without a spin:


The dog comes out from the weave poles on it's right lead. It's not changing to left 'lead' everytime it's left front foot hit's the ground. (though I may be reading Wildo's post wrong). To change it's lead, it has to take extra steps to do the switch *OR* spin into the handler. Dogs can absolutely change leads on the fly on a straight line. That's what my dogs do on a rear cross. When I say 'back' they are headed straight at the obstacle (usually a jump) and changing their lead BEFORE they take of so they LAND on the correct lead to immediately make the turn.

Because it's a Novice course and all spread out, and there aren't any off course obstacles to catch the dogs eye, this clever pup is picking up the 'we are going to the left! cue it's handler is giving so has the time and space to adjust and change to left lead. If the weaves had been a jump, the handler kind of did a 'cross on the landing side' of the obstacle by crossing behind the dog to turn it.


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## GSDElsa

As someone who has ridden horses to some of the highest levels in jump sports all I can think is "how do people NOT get this??" lol.

Sometimes you take your experiences for granted I think! 

And you are correct Wildo that a dog will not ALWAYS land on the correct lead when turning into you, but if your dog is watching you and you are on the opposite side of the turn, then the natural instinct is to land on the lead that is of the less resistance. Very seldom will you see a horse land on the incorrect lead when a sharp turn is involved because the rider is already prepping the turn in the air...for a left turn your right leg is back, weight in left stirrup, rein pressure guiding head. Because the turn is already in motion in the air (much like a dog watching you in the direction you are standing), the most NATURAL thing to do is land on the lead of the turn. 

Generally I will see horses land on incorrect leads that have some kind of phsycial issue (extra stiff in one direction, sore foot, etc) that makes it more uncomfortable to land correctly.

Injuries are not so much the concern with horses in so much as being able to complete the turning physically. Even if a horse isn't on the correct lead, if conditioned and trained properly they should be able to switch leads without a change in pace. 

Here is a beautiful and perhaps one of the most famous examples of a horse maintaining the same pace while doing a lead change every stride. This is German Reiner Klimke after winning the Gold at the 1984 Olympics




 
The video should drive home the importance of collection, engagement, body awareness, and human cues play into animal-human interactions and sport work.


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> That just seems so painful to me. I can't believe they think it feels okay!


Danielle - I don't understand what you think in painful?


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## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The dog comes out from the weave poles on it's right lead. It's not changing to left 'lead' everytime it's left front foot hit's the ground. (though I may be reading Wildo's post wrong).


It would seem that if your are on your right lead than as long as your left foot is forward- you are able to immediately switch to your left lead. In the 3 still images I posted above, the dog was able to switch to a left lead immediately when signaled because it was signaled directly as its left foot went down. It wouldn't have been able to switch to a left lead if its right foot was forward when signaled, that would require one more stride (or a spin in frustration). So the dog was able to switch to a left lead without spin because it was signaled at the correct time.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> *It would seem that if your are on your right lead than as long as your left foot is forward- you are able to immediately switch to your left lead.*


Any horse people can correct me if I'm wrong (or anyone really).... but I don't think that above statement is correct.

The very reason that what lead the dog is on MATTERS, is why that's not true. 

When a 4 legged animal runs on it's right lead, there still is a time that it's left leg is in front, but the dog is still on it's right lead.

Same when they are on their left lead, there's still a part of their stride with the 4 feet hitting the ground when the right foot is in front but there are on their left lead. 

It's kind of a rhythm type thing and one leg hits first and the next fast after, then the first and next fast after. It's the RHYTHM thing the dog needs to change, which front foot hits first, that's making one lead or the other.

Dog's and horses that are good and can change their lead on the fly, that horse video above has that horse contantly changing it's lead pretty much every other step. And they can change it on the flat. 

But they WON'T if they don't have to. And they HAVE to if there's a turn!


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## Jax08

Exactly Maggie


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## MaggieRoseLee

I have to say, the 'lead' thing IS confusing. Why I don't look and see it in my dogs (or others really). I just 'know' they are on the lead that will turn them into me! So if I'm on their left, they are on their left lead and vice versa.

It's a bit different for horses, cause their lead isn't relying on a handler running beside them. But here's a video that may help...


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## wildo

It's an odd concept, mostly because I _see_ what you are talking about, but am not quite getting it... I see the changes, but not sure I understand them. I am not sure I am understanding _why_ I want to understand them. At this point, I'm kinda thinking that as long as you cross prior to initiating a turn- then you're good to go.


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> Danielle - I don't understand what you think in painful?


It just looks awkwardly painful, like watching a trainwreck. I don't understand how people can be there training like that and not find something wrong with it.


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> It's an odd concept, mostly because I _see_ what you are talking about, but am not quite getting it... I see the changes, but not sure I understand them. I am not sure I am understanding _why_ I want to understand them. At this point, I'm kinda thinking that as long as you cross prior to initiating a turn- then you're good to go.


Generally, you are right with that above statement. That's why I never 'see' my dogs left/right lead when out running or training. I just know my position relative to them adjusts their lead.

Why it's important is because if they are NOT on the right lead it can cause refusals, spins and knocked bars on the course. If we are late with our information, they will be late with their lead change. And if we put in the wrong cross at the wrong time it's not THE DOGS FAULT when we stand there confused and thinking we had a good plan, but what the heck did the dog just do.

So if we know a turn is coming up, and can figure out how to be in the right place with the right cross to tell our dogs EARLY which lead to be on (ok, this is important  ) we are ALSO telling them which way the course will be going! We set up the leads to set up the upcoming course and help take away the off courses as well as speeding them up cause they aren't confused, headed off in the wrong direction, or taking turns WAY wide.


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## GSDElsa

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Any horse people can correct me if I'm wrong (or anyone really).... but I don't think that above statement is correct.
> 
> The very reason that what lead the dog is on MATTERS, is why that's not true.
> 
> When a 4 legged animal runs on it's right lead, there still is a time that it's left leg is in front, but the dog is still on it's right lead.
> 
> Same when they are on their left lead, there's still a part of their stride with the 4 feet hitting the ground when the right foot is in front but there are on their left lead.
> 
> It's kind of a rhythm type thing and one leg hits first and the next fast after, then the first and next fast after. It's the RHYTHM thing the dog needs to change, which front foot hits first, that's making one lead or the other.
> 
> Dog's and horses that are good and can change their lead on the fly, that horse video above has that horse contantly changing it's lead pretty much every other step. And they can change it on the flat.
> 
> But they WON'T if they don't have to. And they HAVE to if there's a turn!


I guess I don't quite get what Wildo is saying. Horses use their rear end to make the change.....they should be engaged and it it come from the back end right after the "leading" leg hit the ground and starts to come back up......here's another dressage video of a hrose changing every 3 strides




 
And here's a jumper course where the horse does a few flying changes, but notice most tight turns the horse is landing on the "correct" lead each time


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> It just looks awkwardly painful, like watching a trainwreck. I don't understand how people can be there training like that and not find something wrong with it.


In the original video??? In that case, yes it would be TERRIBLY awkward! Yes, it's a set up for trainwreck over the back of your dog and doing a faceplant.  When a cross is done correctly, it's a set for the dog to the next obstacle and should be smooth...not anything like you see in that video.


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## wildo

GSDElsa said:


> I guess I don't quite get what Wildo is saying


That's probably because I don't either. I watched both horse videos, but I still don't get it. Oh well... Maybe as I gain more experience. (And wow- even though I can't get into horse jumping, that was definitely impressive!)


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wildo, I have a heck of a time seeing lead changes with horses, let alone the fast and shorter legs on a dog.

But I DO know it's more related to a rhythm, and if I'm focused I can see it in horses sometimes. I recognize it in the front feet, the 'hoof hoof pause hoof hoof pause' pacing. And which one of those hoofs lands first, then I can see when they switch.

In this video with the white stockings up the legs it helps me see the feet more. At 13 seconds when the horse is coming right at the camera. I SEE IT! I can even see when the horse switches.


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