# Larger than normal German Shepherds



## Cmac25

I have read online that there are breeders who specialize in breeding larger german shepherds that are in the weight range of 100-140 lbs. How can I find a breeder like this?


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## MaggieRoseLee

As long as you realize they aren't breeding GSD's the way GSD's are supposed to be (they aren't Great Danes/St Bernards) so know what you are getting into. Kind of like saying 'I love Chihuahua's but they are too small, do you know where there are ones that weigh 50 pounds?

King Shepherd Home page

Shiloh Shepherds Home: Shiloh Shepherd pictures, breed, club, registry info!


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## Lesley1905

I agree with Maggie! I think its rediculous what people are making these beautiful dogs turn into. I have a friend who has a GSD that is 135lbs. Even her vet tell her that they shouldn't be that big!


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## sagelfn

Agree with MRL 

If you decide to go this route I would contact this breeder http://www.east-coast-gsd.net/


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## RogueRed26

Anything that doesn't fit the breed's standard should be questioned. Shepherds have some health issues as it is, now imagine a dig intentionally bred to be heavier. I am foretelling health issues, especially with those hips and joints.


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## Rei

RogueRed26 said:


> Anything that doesn't fit the breed's standard should be questioned.


That is interesting. My German Shepherd has a steep croup, stands east west, is cow hocked, and also possesses several other faults, which means that he does not conform perfectly to the breed's standard. I guess he should be questioned, too (even though most people seem to define his breeder as quite "reputable", he comes from SCHH1 KKL1 dam and IPO3 VPG3 sire).


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## RogueRed26

Rei said:


> That is interesting. My German Shepherd has a steep croup, stands east west, is cow hocked, and also possesses several other faults, which means that he does not conform perfectly to the breed's standard. I guess he should be questioned, too (even though most people seem to define his breeder as quite "reputable", he comes from SCHH1 KKL1 dam and IPO3 VPG3 sire).


This is why some dogs are meant to be companions. We breed to perfect the breed, not incorporate unwanted faults. Overweight shepherds should not be counted as the standard. Any breeder that advertises and breeds shepherds for attaining abnormal height and weight standards SHOULD be questioned. If someone wants am extra LARGE German shepherd, they should be looking into another breed that falls into that height and weight scale, like a Saint Bernard or Great Pyrenees. 

Just because your dog does not fit the standard, does not make him any less of a companion. I was not attacking your dog, but you seem to have made it personal. Every dog should have an appropriate and loving home, flaws and all, but wouldn't it be great if BYB would just stop for once producing dogs that do not fit the bill for passing on their genes, thus reducing or stopping the surplus of unwanted pets because of behavioral and health issues.


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## Konotashi

German shepherds are supposed to be a medium breed, though, not a large breed. 

They're already the poster child for HD, so why try to breed them to be bigger and worsen the problem? :/ 
Just be wary of 'bigger' GSD breeders.


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## Rei

RogueRed26 said:


> This is why some dogs are meant to be companions. We breed to perfect the breed, not incorporate unwanted faults. Overweight shepherds should not be counted as the standard. Any breeder that advertises and breeds shepherds for attaining abnormal height and weight standards SHOULD be questioned. If someone wants am extra LARGE German shepherd, they should be looking into another breed that falls into that height and weight scale, like a Saint Bernard or Great Pyrenees.
> 
> Just because your dog does not fit the standard, does not make him any less of a companion. I was not attacking your dog, but you seem to have made it personal. Every dog should have an appropriate and loving home, flaws and all, but wouldn't it be great if BYB would just stop for once producing dogs that do not fit the bill for passing on their genes, thus reducing or stopping the surplus of unwanted pets because of behavioral and health issues.


Don't worry, I'm not making it personal  I have my own beliefs and ideals, and you have yours. That is not a problem with me. But blanket statements such as those without elaboration always spark my curiosity. 

My boy's sire does not conform perfectly to standard. He may even be over the standard as far as height, I remember him being a large dog. My boy's dam also does not conform perfectly to standard, she has a steep croup and I do believe she stands slightly east west. My dog got his physical faults from his parents. Neither are the ideal as far as conformation. 

Do you believe I got my dog from a "BYB", as you say? Should they not have been bred?



sagelfn said:


> Agree with MRL
> 
> If you decide to go this route I would contact this breeder http://www.east-coast-gsd.net/


I second this recommendation. He is also a member of this message board, with a wealth of knowledge regarding breeding, health, and the history of German Shepherds.


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## AbbyK9

> Originally Posted by *RogueRed26*
> _Anything that doesn't fit the breed's standard should be questioned._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is interesting. My German Shepherd has a steep croup, stands east west, is cow hocked, and also possesses several other faults, which means that he does not conform perfectly to the breed's standard. I guess he should be questioned, too (even though most people seem to define his breeder as quite "reputable", he comes from SCHH1 KKL1 dam and IPO3 VPG3 sire).
Click to expand...

I think what RogueRed meant was that when you see a breeding program that is purposely producing dogs that are outside of the standard - whether that is by size or, for example, by color or conformation - that's something you should take a second look at before you buy from that breeder.

If your dog came from titled parents and just got a genetically flawed deck of cards (so to speak), that's a different matter. Now if you took your dog and said, "He stands east-west and I like this trait, so I am going to see if I can breed a line of dogs that all stand east-west," then that's something that should be questioned. Not the dog itself but the program that is built around the dog(s) and the goals with which they are producing (specific traits - oversized, disqualified colors, for example).


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## RogueRed26

Rei said:


> Don't worry, I'm not making it personal  I have my own beliefs and ideals, and you have yours.


I also respect your opinions as well. This is a forum where we all can teach and learn from each other, and I wouldn't have it any other way. 




Rei said:


> Do you believe I got my dog from a "BYB", as you say? Should they not have been bred?


IMO I believe your dog was produced with the intention of creating an example of the working line GSD, as opposed to an emphasis on conformation, such as the showline GSD. IMO both lines differ structurally. I do not know your breeder, but it sounds as if the parents were probably screened for any genetic illness and possibly titled by the breeders themselves. 

My only emphasis is on the fact that any exaggerated fault should not be encouraged to be passed along, such as "soft ears", "Big Boned", "Tall", or "Extra Large/ Heavy" shepherds. I suppose there are always exceptions to the rules, but ONLY if it genuinely betters the breed. That's my opinion anyways.


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## Rei

AbbyK9 said:


> I think what RogueRed meant was that when you see a breeding program that is purposely producing dogs that are outside of the standard - whether that is by size or, for example, by color or conformation - that's something you should take a second look at before you buy from that breeder.
> 
> If your dog came from titled parents and just got a genetically flawed deck of cards (so to speak), that's a different matter. Now if you took your dog and said, "He stands east-west and I like this trait, so I am going to see if I can breed a line of dogs that all stand east-west," then that's something that should be questioned. Not the dog itself but the program that is built around the dog(s) and the goals with which they are producing (specific traits - oversized, disqualified colors, for example).


That's why I asked for elaboration, and then his thoughts on the specific breeder I bought my dog from. I know it goes both ways - I do not care for breeders who breed solely for color or size, either, whereas I value breeders that breed dogs of size or colors that are not exactly to standard. 

I followed up with my question because, like I said, it sparked my curiosity and I am genuinely interested in RogueRed's definition of what makes a "BYB" vs. a "reputable" breeder. Otherwise, perhaps I would take it personally! I sought to make discussion and hear more of RogueRed's opinion, because it may benefit me and even the OP as well. At the very least it would satisfy my curiosity! 

Perhaps my questions came off as condescending or snarky. Was not meant to be the case at all.


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## Rei

RogueRed26 said:


> I also respect your opinions as well. This is a forum where we all can teach and learn from each other, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> IMO I believe your dog was produced with the intention of creating an example of the working line GSD, as opposed to an emphasis on conformation, such as the showline GSD. IMO both lines differ structurally. I do not know your breeder, but it sounds as if the parents were probably screened for any genetic illness and possibly titled by the breeders themselves.
> 
> My only emphasis is on the fact that any exaggerated fault should not be encouraged to be passed along, such as "soft ears", "Big Boned", "Tall", or "Extra Large/ Heavy" shepherds. I suppose there are always exceptions to the rules, but ONLY if it genuinely betters the breed. That's my opinion anyways.


Would you say, then, that it is the breeder for size rather than breeding of dogs of larger size that you have a problem with? Do you recommend someone look more into a breeder of larger sized German Shepherds before purchasing, or do you recommend they look elsewhere altogether? 

Your comment on my dog being meant to be a companion also interested me. What was it about my description of him that made you automatically conclude that he was meant to be a companion/pet only and not of breeding quality? (You are actually quite right in your assessment! He is pet quality only!)


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## AbbyK9

I realize your last post was not directed at me, but do you mind if I answer anyway?



> Would you say, then, that it is the breeder for size rather than breeding of dogs of larger size that you have a problem with?


If I understand correctly, you are trying to differentiate between two breeders: one who breeds specifically to produce larger-sized puppies, where, possibly, size is the main focus of the breeding program; and one who is breeding to produce certain traits in his dogs but is mating dogs who are outside the standard in size and are, therefore, producing larger puppies. In that case, the second breeder's primary goal would not be size, but rather temperament or ability?

A breeder who is breeding for traits - let's say someone who's breeding dogs from long working lines with loads of titles and who's looking to breed puppies for sport homes - may look at his breeding stock, realize that what he has tends to be on the bigger / oversized end, and then chose instead of breeding a large male and a large female to bring in different genetic material from a different dog who may help bring/keep the offspring to a Medium size instead of breeding bigger and bigger.

(God, I hope that makes sense at 1am. LOL)

There are some lines and breeders that produce dogs that are "above" the standard, certainly - but I think most of them will run just an inch or two above the standard, not a whole lot. Certainly nowhere in the 140lbs range, even the heavy-boned types with the big blocky heads.

I think that many/most of the breeders who produce primarily for size want to be much, much over the standard (not just an inch or two) and just produce a much bigger dog. And they will want to go bigger and bigger rather than using maybe a smaller male and keeping closer to the standard.

I've also noticed that a lot of breeders who specifically produce for the big size do so before placing considerations on other aspects of the standard and/or also ignore other aspects of the standard. Many of the sites I've been to talk about breeding for "temperament" but go on to say their dogs are not suitable for Schutzhund, don't have any prey drive, etc. So is that still correct temperament for a GSD? I don't think so.

I also have a hard time reconciling the suggestion that a dog so large and without high energy or prey drive would be suitable for or excel at agility or Search and Rescue. I certainly don't see a lot of the oversize breeders back up their claims of "our dogs excel in ..." with actual proof ... like titles, for example. How does one know their dogs excel in something if it isn't tested under an impartial judge? That's like saying "our dogs have good hips" without ever doing x-rays. How do you know?

I think the difference is between breeding for purpose and ending up with a bigger dog than the standard calls for and breeding for a specific look/trait and not giving a rat's patootie about either the standard or the abilities.


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## RogueRed26

Rei said:


> Would you say, then, that it is the breeder for size rather than breeding of dogs of larger size that you have a problem with? Do you recommend someone look more into a breeder of larger sized German Shepherds before purchasing, or do you recommend they look elsewhere altogether?
> 
> Your comment on my dog being meant to be a companion also interested me. What was it about my description of him that made you automatically conclude that he was meant to be a companion/pet only and not of breeding quality? (You are actually quite right in your assessment! He is pet quality only!)


I think everyone has the right to search and acquire any dog that fits their standards; I am not one to say no, but I am one to at least advise. I personally do not advocate or recommend purchasing from any breeder who basis their breeding program on certain faults of the breed and exemplifies them to seem deem-able. There is a reason we have standards and if certain dogs do not fit the bill, then, maybe, they should not be added to the gene pool. That's my opinion. 

I honestly feel this discussion is in an ellipsis. This will be my last response, primarily cause I feel as if I am just reiterating too much. The point has been put across, and I believe *Abbyk9* did a wonderful job of going into vast detail of the question and dissecting it at its root. Its awesome to see the knowledge and experience people have on this forum. Impressed. :thumbup:


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## Rei

AbbyK9 said:


> I realize your last post was not directed at me, but do you mind if I answer anyway?
> 
> If I understand correctly, you are trying to differentiate between two breeders: one who breeds specifically to produce larger-sized puppies, where, possibly, size is the main focus of the breeding program; and one who is breeding to produce certain traits in his dogs but is mating dogs who are outside the standard in size and are, therefore, producing larger puppies. In that case, the second breeder's primary goal would not be size, but rather temperament or ability?
> 
> A breeder who is breeding for traits - let's say someone who's breeding dogs from long working lines with loads of titles and who's looking to breed puppies for sport homes - may look at his breeding stock, realize that what he has tends to be on the bigger / oversized end, and then chose instead of breeding a large male and a large female to bring in different genetic material from a different dog who may help bring/keep the offspring to a Medium size instead of breeding bigger and bigger.
> 
> (God, I hope that makes sense at 1am. LOL)
> 
> There are some lines and breeders that produce dogs that are "above" the standard, certainly - but I think most of them will run just an inch or two above the standard, not a whole lot. Certainly nowhere in the 140lbs range, even the heavy-boned types with the big blocky heads.
> 
> I think that many/most of the breeders who produce primarily for size want to be much, much over the standard (not just an inch or two) and just produce a much bigger dog. And they will want to go bigger and bigger rather than using maybe a smaller male and keeping closer to the standard.
> 
> I've also noticed that a lot of breeders who specifically produce for the big size do so before placing considerations on other aspects of the standard and/or also ignore other aspects of the standard. Many of the sites I've been to talk about breeding for "temperament" but go on to say their dogs are not suitable for Schutzhund, don't have any prey drive, etc. So is that still correct temperament for a GSD? I don't think so.
> 
> I also have a hard time reconciling the suggestion that a dog so large and without high energy or prey drive would be suitable for or excel at agility or Search and Rescue. I certainly don't see a lot of the oversize breeders back up their claims of "our dogs excel in ..." with actual proof ... like titles, for example. How does one know their dogs excel in something if it isn't tested under an impartial judge? That's like saying "our dogs have good hips" without ever doing x-rays. How do you know?
> 
> I think the difference is between breeding for purpose and ending up with a bigger dog than the standard calls for and breeding for a specific look/trait and not giving a rat's patootie about either the standard or the abilities.


Chris, would I mind? :wild: I am a long time fan of your blog and all your posts! I love hearing anything and everything you have to say!

Speaking from a personal perspective and what I look for when I purchase a German Shepherd, I can say I agree with your post completely. However, I also do try to look at things objectively, and while I can easily say that I would not purchase from a certain breeder, it does not mean that I will not recommend him/her to others looking for something different from my own ideals. What my initial purpose was, besides to start a discussion and to satisfy my own curiosity, was to avoid drilling into the OP so immediately that large sized German Shepherds are bad and not worthy of being bred, and anyone who does so is a BYB - which, unfortunately, is the tone many of these threads often take. 

I do agree that there are certain traits I believe the GSD should possess, and want to see a breeder involved with their dogs in activities and forms of training that will reveal more of the dog's temperament and drives. Although I will say, two of the four or five working line breeders I respect the most on this board do not title all or even most of their current breeding stock, and yet I think them to be a better judge of their dogs (yes, their own dogs!) than another random certified judge. Through their posts and credentials, I have seen and read enough for me to personally find them both credible and trustworthy and would love to purchase a puppy from them, if they would sell one to me - but then again, their knowledge and dedication and experience is also just another form of proof, I suppose! I think my point is, what is proof for one person, one buyer may not necessarily have to be proof enough for the majority.

With these types of threads, it usually boils down to "know what you want", for me. It is always interesting to see people recommending, backing up, or, at the very least, not typing up warnings, when someone posts a link to a breeder with VA1 SCHH3 KKL1 dogs, parading their Gucci or Zamp or Kevin progeny. Or, perhaps a link to a breeder with SCHH3 dogs from sport/working lines, and pictures of their dogs' flashy heeling and videos of a jumping, in the face bark and hold. But those breeders may send their dogs out to Germany for titling and then keep them in kennels without ever knowing their temperament, as long as they go VA, or they may kennel the dogs up for most of their lives with the intention of building drive. So the person looking for a new puppy could end up with a puppy that is a bag of poor nerves even at a young age, or a puppy from a litter that was bred more in accordance to the ideal temperament and drives of a Malinois, a more "successful" dog in the protection sports. 

VA ratings and SCHH3 titles do not mean the dogs are good representatives of the breed, either, yet it is the breeders who aim to produce pet quality dogs that are especially targeted. A VA could just mean that the dog is bred in accordance to the current fad in the SV show ring, and a SCHH3 may mean that the dog has Malinois-like qualities that make it an ideal sport dog, but not an overall, well rounded German Shepherd. 

If someone wanted a show dog, people would have no problems linking them to a breeder because they see VA and V show ratings, or AKC Chs. If someone wanted a sport dog, people would have no problems linking them to a breeder because they see SCHH titles. But if someone wanted a pet dog and linked to a breeder with dogs with CGCs or dogs that are simply family pets, there is a sudden rush to label them as a BYB. It has even just been said that there are many different types of German Shepherd Dogs, all with different qualities. Do I like that aspect of the breed? No, but it is what it is and I won't shoo people away from one type because of my own preferences, nor will I imply that they are not worthy of consideration.

Me? I'll always get a dog from a breeder who's ideas of and goals for the breed are similar to my own, because they are more likely to breed closer to my ideal, my vision of the total German Shepherd Dog, than a breeder I cannot agree with. But if others buy show dogs from show breeders and sport dogs from sport/working line breeders, I cannot find a problem with people buying pet dogs from pet breeders. All breeders breed their own ideal, because the interpretation of the breed standard, and what can and cannot be made an exception, is so varied. 

Anyway, I am rambling... It's only 10:50 p.m. here but I'm not even sure I'm making any sense to myself, much less others! Please feel free to point out any and all flaws in my thinking, would love to hear yours as well. I don't have a very solidly established opinion on this, despite what it may seem, and am always open to discussion.


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## AbbyK9

> If someone wanted a show dog, people would have no problems linking them to a breeder because they see VA and V show ratings, or AKC Chs. If someone wanted a sport dog, people would have no problems linking them to a breeder because they see SCHH titles.


I do not think that anyone should recommend a breeder of a particular type of dog solely based on the titles listed on the breeder's website - they should recommend a breeder because they have seen their dogs at shows or working and because others they trust respect and recommend that breeder.

I think any time you have a "single" approach, you'll run into trouble. A "single" approach is when you use one thing to form an opinion - like recommending a breeder based only on the titles you see listed for their dogs. When you know both the titles the dogs have AND have seen the dogs or have someone you trust tell you they've seen the dogs and were impressed, then you have a "double" approach.

Because there are so many people on this forum, if someone posts "what do you think of this breeder", people are able to take several approaches and give a number of different opinions - they can look at pictures and pedigrees. They may be able to see some videos of the dogs working. Or they may have met some of those dogs and have first-hand feedback on them. Some may even own dogs from that kennel. So you get a wide variety of input.

If the OP came on here and said, "I want a German Shepherd and I kinda like them on the larger end of the spectrum, I don't like a really small, fine-boned dog," then people could say, "I know this/that breeder who is breeding for show / work / whatever and tends to produce dogs that are a bit over the standard." (Doesn't, for example, Van Den Heuvel tend to produce slightly bigger dogs with substantial bone?)



> But if someone wanted a pet dog and linked to a breeder with dogs with CGCs or dogs that are simply family pets, there is a sudden rush to label them as a BYB.


I don't think it's surprising at all that anyone who's specifically producing pets is labeled as a BYB, and there's a couple of reasons.

The first would be that most litters bred for a specific purpose (such as show or work) will produce "pet quality" pups that will and should go to pet homes. I guess with so many pet pups produced by those breeders, I wonder if there's a need for someone to produce specifically pet lines?

The second is that the majority who produce pet GSDs do not have an interest in producing the temperament of a German Shepherd - they want to produce and sell a dog that looks like a German Shepherd but acts like a Labrador or a Newfoundland. They specifically breed out some of the traits that make a Shepherd and Shepherd - like prey drive (which is what a Shepherd needs to do herding, for example).

And it has been my general impression that those who do breed for pet lines are often very unwilling or uninterested in doing any sort of sport with their dogs. Even obedience or rally seems to be something most of them do not do. 

They may get a CGC on their dogs and tout that as a proof of temperament and accomplishment, but I don't think a CGC is truly a measure of that. You can take a dog that does not have the best temperament and train the dog to tolerate what is thrown at it during a CGC test, and pass. You can train the most basic of obedience (sit/down/stay) and pass a CGC. Even the TDI is not too much harder. (For what it's worth, I put both the CGC/TDI on my Mal a month after I got her from the shelter. I've not put any titles on her since because, to me, it is not important to title - I won't be breeding and I'm having a lot of fun doing fun matches and other, different types of things like pulling a travois or doing the Iron Dog.)

I think the people who breed specifically for pets cater to a specific market that is often ignorant about titles and may be impressed by being told that a dog has a CGC / TDI / Herding Instinct Certificate / Rally Novice / Temperament Test / whatever, just like you get people who equate having AKC paperwork and a 6-generation pedigree as proof that your dog is breed-worthy. (I've met plenty of people who tell me the puppies they breed are from "Champion lines". I don't think it really counts if the "champion" is one sire five generations back.)


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## zeus von entringer staal

If your really interested in a King Sheppard, I would suggest contacting the original breeders who started the breed in 1995. 
Two American dog breeders Shelly Watts-Cross, and David Turkheimer created this large breed from American and European German Shepherd dogs, Alaskan Malamutes, and Great Pyrenees.
Ask about the history they have had raising them and see if its something you wanna get into. They look beautiful IMHO.


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## Rei

AbbyK9 said:


> I do not think that anyone should recommend a breeder of a particular type of dog solely based on the titles listed on the breeder's website - they should recommend a breeder because they have seen their dogs at shows or working and because others they trust respect and recommend that breeder.
> 
> I think any time you have a "single" approach, you'll run into trouble. A "single" approach is when you use one thing to form an opinion - like recommending a breeder based only on the titles you see listed for their dogs. When you know both the titles the dogs have AND have seen the dogs or have someone you trust tell you they've seen the dogs and were impressed, then you have a "double" approach.


100% agreed.



AbbyK9 said:


> Because there are so many people on this forum, if someone posts "what do you think of this breeder", people are able to take several approaches and give a number of different opinions - they can look at pictures and pedigrees. They may be able to see some videos of the dogs working. Or they may have met some of those dogs and have first-hand feedback on them. Some may even own dogs from that kennel. So you get a wide variety of input.
> 
> If the OP came on here and said, "I want a German Shepherd and I kinda like them on the larger end of the spectrum, I don't like a really small, fine-boned dog," then people could say, "I know this/that breeder who is breeding for show / work / whatever and tends to produce dogs that are a bit over the standard." (Doesn't, for example, Van Den Heuvel tend to produce slightly bigger dogs with substantial bone?)


People could, but unfortunately they do not.

I guess the best way to put it is that I am trying to make up for the fact. Some people will jump to condemn or recommend without ever knowing any more about a group of dogs beyond the titles and what is on the breeder website. I would really rather they just encourage people to understand what they personally want and not take things for granted, nor believe that the forum word is law, as people often do (I know I did at first!). 

van den Heuvel does produce dogs of great substance, as is common in the lines they work with. I know Chuck (Shepherds By Design) owns dogs from similar lineage and also of great substance. Love his dogs, especially Ghost :wub:





AbbyK9 said:


> I don't think it's surprising at all that anyone who's specifically producing pets is labeled as a BYB, and there's a couple of reasons.


I should not have used "surprised", "unfair" would be a better fit. It's not surprising, but I feel that it is a bit unfair.



AbbyK9 said:


> The first would be that most litters bred for a specific purpose (such as show or work) will produce "pet quality" pups that will and should go to pet homes. I guess with so many pet pups produced by those breeders, I wonder if there's a need for someone to produce specifically pet lines?


But the problem is, is that there is no _need _to produce specifically show lines, or working lines, or dogs at all.




AbbyK9 said:


> The second is that the majority who produce pet GSDs do not have an interest in producing the temperament of a German Shepherd - they want to produce and sell a dog that looks like a German Shepherd but acts like a Labrador or a Newfoundland. They specifically breed out some of the traits that make a Shepherd and Shepherd - like prey drive (which is what a Shepherd needs to do herding, for example).
> 
> And it has been my general impression that those who do breed for pet lines are often very unwilling or uninterested in doing any sort of sport with their dogs. Even obedience or rally seems to be something most of them do not do.
> 
> They may get a CGC on their dogs and tout that as a proof of temperament and accomplishment, but I don't think a CGC is truly a measure of that. You can take a dog that does not have the best temperament and train the dog to tolerate what is thrown at it during a CGC test, and pass. You can train the most basic of obedience (sit/down/stay) and pass a CGC. Even the TDI is not too much harder. Or Rally Novice.


But many show kennels do not give much thought to temperament at all, and many sport kennels breed dogs that look like a German Shepherd but act like a Belgian Malinois, because, just as Labradors are more popular in companion homes, it is the Malinois that has become more popular as a competitive protection sport dog. 




AbbyK9 said:


> I think the people who breed specifically for pets cater to a specific market that is often ignorant about titles and may be impressed by being told that a dog has a CGC / TDI / Herding Instinct Certificate / Rally Novice / Temperament Test / whatever, just like you get people who equate having AKC paperwork and a 6-generation pedigree as proof that your dog is breed-worthy. (I've met plenty of people who tell me the puppies they breed are from "Champion lines". I don't think it really counts if the "champion" is one sire five generations back.)


I do agree, but for me, a dog with a Schutzhund title may possess traits that make a GSD a GSD, but often, to the extreme. Many involved in Schutzhund have bragged of a dog's extreme sharpness and handler aggression is nowhere near a rarity. High, high prey drive, very low thresholds, and high levels of reactivity. A dog in possession of those traits can be titled to a SCHH3, and SCHH3 dogs of those types aren't uncommon. I don't believe that makes a good German Shepherd, either. Which is why I fully agree with your earlier statement - "I think any time you have a "single" approach, you'll run into trouble." 

There is a "could" and "should", and there is actuality. People could encourage others to understand the intricacies of breeding and to contact specific members of the forum on both sides of the argument, but in actuality, if someone new comes in looking for a larger sized German Shepherd, many will come in with the comment "breeders who breed for size are BYBs and to be avoided". Of course, that is the nature of message boards, and I understand that. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a good discussion, or let my own curiosity get the best of me.


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## PaddyD

RogueRed26 said:


> Anything that doesn't fit the breed's standard should be questioned. Shepherds have some health issues as it is, now imagine a dig intentionally bred to be heavier. I am foretelling health issues, especially with those hips and joints.


Tried questioning my dog to no avail. 

Maybe the OP is talking about Shiloh Shepherds ???


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## cliffson1

I personally think Rei and Abbyk9 have both made some excellent points and the OP will benefit from reading their posts. JMO


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## Franksmom

Cmac25 said:


> I have read online that there are breeders who specialize in breeding larger german shepherds that are in the weight range of 100-140 lbs. How can I find a breeder like this?


Are you talking about a King or Shiloh Shepherd or one of the sites that lists "large old fashioned straight backed" type sheperds
I have a shepherd from one of the "old fashiond" type breeders and while I know many people on this forum do not like or agree with the breeding practice, I love mine and would buy a second pup from the breeder I bought mine from, you can pm me if you would like to know more about mine.


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## hunterisgreat

Most breeds have the same issues. Compare a pet lab to a top dollar hunting lab and it's no different than a pet gsd and a drivey sport gsd

Whoever was talking about sport breeders and pet quality... Both my breeders had both in both litters. Any breeder who says all their dogs are sport quality is likely wrong. Even so, only a small subset of the best of any line should be breeding otherwise we get too dilute

Also, OP be aware the bigger the dog the bigger the chances of bloat


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## martemchik

I think sometimes we forget that most people aren't looking for a dog that is the perfect definition of the breed standard, and while most of us on this forum understand what a true GSD should be, there are many varying opinions on this. I've been a GSD owner for about 5 months now and have developed my own opinion based on what I read here and also from what I hear at my local GSD club. But when I was looking for my first GSD the King, Shiloh, and "big boned" definately sparked my interest. This was of course before I knew what I wanted out of my dog. As much as most of us don't want to see these large GSDs bred, they will be, because there is a market for them (and the breeder's websites make quite an argument on why it is a better dog). There were many times when I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool to walk down the street with a 150 lb german shepherd." But then say you do get a very prey driven one, at 150 lbs thats probably uncontrollable.

We have to remember that as much as we don't want those dogs called GSDs, to the rest of the world they are exactly that. I can almost guarantee that a 150 lb saddleback would be considered more purebred by most people than my sable pup (6 months ago I would've been in that camp). These are probably dogs that should have their own breed, but because of their close ties to the GSD they won't, and all we can do here is warn of any kinds of issues these dogs might have due to their size or questionable temperment.


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## Cmac25

Well I am a little confused..So many responses by people that know much more about dogs in general and GSD's even more so. I certainly don't want a large GSD that acts like a lab. I want a GSD I was just hoping I could get one thats larger. Do the king shepherds act like GSD's? Sorry if my questions seem on the stupid end but I am a little confused on exactly what the cons of going this route are? Im not really concerned about taking a big dog for a walk and having it pull me. I am not a small guy by any means and I am into bodybuilding so I am on the very strong end lol. Not saying it couldnt happen but most likely wouldnt with me. But other than that can we discuss some of the pros and cons?


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## Cmac25

Are there breeders that don't just breed soley for size but will give you a GSD that is larger and acts like one or am I going to get a big soggy fluffball?


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> I think sometimes we forget that most people aren't looking for a dog that is the perfect definition of the breed standard, and while most of us on this forum understand what a true GSD should be, there are many varying opinions on this. I've been a GSD owner for about 5 months now and have developed my own opinion based on what I read here and also from what I hear at my local GSD club. But when I was looking for my first GSD the King, Shiloh, and "big boned" definately sparked my interest. This was of course before I knew what I wanted out of my dog. As much as most of us don't want to see these large GSDs bred, they will be, because there is a market for them (and the breeder's websites make quite an argument on why it is a better dog). There were many times when I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool to walk down the street with a 150 lb german shepherd." But then say you do get a very prey driven one, at 150 lbs thats probably uncontrollable.
> 
> We have to remember that as much as we don't want those dogs called GSDs, to the rest of the world they are exactly that. I can almost guarantee that a 150 lb saddleback would be considered more purebred by most people than my sable pup (6 months ago I would've been in that camp). These are probably dogs that should have their own breed, but because of their close ties to the GSD they won't, and all we can do here is warn of any kinds of issues these dogs might have due to their size or questionable temperment.


Shilohs and Kings are considered separate breeds... don't believe they are AKC recognized. Both breeds have their own governing bodies and registries.

Pretty common for many breeds... for example, my family is boykin spaniel heavy (20+) and they didn't have AKC recognition forever and have their own governance and registry (boykin spaniel society). AKC moves slow and eventually adopts established breeds. They adopted boykins in 2008 I think. My neighbors cane corso was only officially recognized very very recently by AKC. Everyone thinks she's a pit lol


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## Cmac25

For some reason my replies are posted all over this thread so I hope ppl can see them lol.


Basicially I would like to discuss the pros and cons of this a little more basic. I am a little confused by some responses.

Also I guess what I mainly want is a GSD that acts like a GSD but tends to be on the larger end. I dont want something that acts like a lab or is just a soggy ball of fluff that sits on my couch all day.


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Well I am a little confused..So many responses by people that know much more about dogs in general and GSD's even more so. I certainly don't want a large GSD that acts like a lab. I want a GSD I was just hoping I could get one thats larger. Do the king shepherds act like GSD's? Sorry if my questions seem on the stupid end but I am a little confused on exactly what the cons of going this route are? Im not really concerned about taking a big dog for a walk and having it pull me. I am not a small guy by any means and I am into bodybuilding so I am on the very strong end lol. Not saying it couldnt happen but most likely wouldnt with me. But other than that can we discuss some of the pros and cons?


Anyone attempting to improve on any breed will tell you their progeny exemplify the breed and improve upon it 

I'm 137lbs and I have no issue controlling my friends 185lb dane, my mom's 130lb dane, my neighbors 110lb corso, either of my dogs, or both on a Y splitter (and thats 160lbs with 8 legs pulling forward). Its all technique in controlling a dog, not dead weight.

What do you feel a GSD should be? Don't go look it up on wikipedia... just describe to us what a GSD is to you, and what you want it to be. If we know what you expect we can assist better.


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## hunterisgreat

If size and raw poundage is truly important... to get to 150lbs the only way without being severely overweight is one of the above "sub breeds" of gsd. If its more of an intimidation or deterrence factor that is important, I assure you a 90lb beefy ddr or czech dog will intimidate with presence alone.


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## Cmac25

To me a GSD is big, powerful but agile. They are smart and loyal. I would not want one that is so big that it looks bloated and like a giant softee. I plan on having one that I can take on some morning runs or walks, play fetch with and obviously have the mans best friend bond with. I guess thats why I want one that tends to be on the larger end but I dont wanna go so far as to have one thats just huge and cant do anything and is clumsy.


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## Cmac25

Im looking on the van den heuvel website and so far they seem to be more what im looking for. Its a GSD that acts like one and looks like one but tends to be on the larger end. I dont really need one thats 150lbs but 100-120 would even be awesome. So maybe the type on that website would be what im looking for?


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Im looking on the van den heuvel website and so far they seem to be more what im looking for. Its a GSD that acts like one and looks like one but tends to be on the larger end. I dont really need one thats 150lbs but 100-120 would even be awesome. So maybe the type on that website would be what im looking for?


Orry does not appear to be anywhere near 120lbs. I'm no good at guessing weights so someone else could chime in, but I'd guess 80-90lbs

I would try to not focus on a number, and go look at sires & dams. My male is 88lbs, and people constantly guess his weight at 110, 120, which makes me laugh. The other issue with focusing on a number for weight, is people seem to get fixated and start over feeding slowly but surely as the pup grows b/c they are subconsciously or consciously shooting for a number on that scale. I'm guilty of it. My male hit 97 when I started at a club and the trainer said "as far as conformation goes, he is perfect... but he's fat and you need to make him lose 10lbs". My neighbor was going to be/slightly still is that way with his corso. He was so proud of having a large breed that I had to have a sit down talk about his feeding habits. 

The other thing, is with the wild variety of bone structure & density, chest depth and breadth, musculature, its really hard to say what a 100lb dog would look like in terms of height/length/etc.


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## Kris10

If I were you I would start your search based on what you want in a dog OTHER than it's looks or size FIRST. When you say Huevel has GSDs that act like one should, what does that mean to you? What you described as the type of activities you want to do with your dog doesn't fit what they are striving to produce to me. 
I think it's great that you are doing your research, and it will pay off when you find a dog that is a good fit for you!!


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## Cmac25

I guess I just thought that on their website their dogs appeared to be larger than standard but still maintained that muscular look and appeared to be pretty dense looking. I think on their website it said something to that nature as well. I guess what im looking for is a breeder who doesnt just breed for size but does tend to produce larger pups.


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> I guess I just thought that on their website their dogs appeared to be larger than standard but still maintained that muscular look and appeared to be pretty dense looking. I think on their website it said something to that nature as well. I guess what im looking for is a breeder who doesnt just breed for size but does tend to produce larger pups.


That breeder breeds for working ability pretty much exclusively (I mean, after health, etc). He probably doesn't have size high on his list.

See what I mean by perception now? That dog looks big to you, but they are medium sized GSDs, they just have the commanding presence of a working dog


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## hunterisgreat

Kris10 said:


> If I were you I would start your search based on what you want in a dog OTHER than it's looks or size FIRST. When you say Huevel has GSDs that act like one should, what does that mean to you? What you described as the type of activities you want to do with your dog doesn't fit what they are striving to produce to me.
> I think it's great that you are doing your research, and it will pay off when you find a dog that is a good fit for you!!


I agree, and a good breeder should discourage you from picking on looks. Both my breeders didn't allow puppy picking. We spoke extensively about what I wanted, and they selected the puppy for me. All I was able to select was sex and what breeding it came from.

Those dogs are high end sport dogs. All breedings produce some pet quality dogs (but those pets are still gonna by drivey active dogs compared to BYBs)


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## Cmac25

I guess my next question would be is there a way to get that same commanding presence but also be on the slightly larger end of the spectrum?


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> I guess my next question would be is there a way to get that same commanding presence but also be on the slightly larger end of the spectrum?


Most working dogs aren't that big. When I'm at dog events where I run into lots of other gsds, the non working dogs tend to be taller but leaner than mine. When you start getting over lbs, its rarely working lines from my limited experience. None of the dogs at my club or the prior club were over 100lbs (that were also GSDs)


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## martemchik

Yes, all those breeds have their own registries and clubs, but they aren't accepted by the bigger kennel clubs. In my opinion, and most peoples, AKC, UKC, and those clubs are the authority on breeds, and as slow as they move, they do their job. Shilohs, kings, and the like can most times be registered with AKC as GSDs in order to get those dogs to be eligible for shows and competitions. Yes, they will never win a confirmation, but if the owner wants to try, they can as a GSD. That was my point.

As to the OP's question, I am not an expert by any means but I did to my research. Like people said, the risk for HD and bloat goes up, and most other diseases when considering the fact that they are using the largest of the largest to get their dogs that big, which greatly decreases the genetic pool they have to chose from. The other argument would be, like in the case of the king and shiloh that they used other breeds so they have the chance of breeding out the diseases that are linked to those breeds. That could also bring in diseases that aren't linked to the GSD but are to the other breeds used (I know the malamute is pretty promintent for size). The temperments, if you read about them on the breeder's sites, are usually very low prey drive and they make very good family dogs. They aren't built for sport or working so if you plan on doing that in the future I would steer away. I'm speaking of the more established "sub-breeds" and not too sure about the "big-boned" shepherd because those are in all techincality full blooded GSDs and could have the temperment of a working dog.

This information is purely from research and none of it is experience. So if I have something wrong, please correct me and I'd like to know for myself. As I've stated, I would've loved to have a huge GSD (mine will be around 100 lbs) just for the sake of being different.


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## Good_Karma

I have to say, Niko is only 80 lbs and when he's barking at a stranger, they don't get any closer. (We're working on this, I don't like that he does this) He's American Show line. His sire was 90 lbs.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Yes, all those breeds have their own registries and clubs, but they aren't accepted by the bigger kennel clubs. In my opinion, and most peoples, AKC, UKC, and those clubs are the authority on breeds, and as slow as they move, they do their job. Shilohs, kings, and the like can most times be registered with AKC as GSDs in order to get those dogs to be eligible for shows and competitions. Yes, they will never win a confirmation, but if the owner wants to try, they can as a GSD. That was my point.
> 
> As to the OP's question, I am not an expert by any means but I did to my research. Like people said, the risk for HD and bloat goes up, and most other diseases when considering the fact that they are using the largest of the largest to get their dogs that big, which greatly decreases the genetic pool they have to chose from. The other argument would be, like in the case of the king and shiloh that they used other breeds so they have the chance of breeding out the diseases that are linked to those breeds. That could also bring in diseases that aren't linked to the GSD but are to the other breeds used (I know the malamute is pretty promintent for size). The temperments, if you read about them on the breeder's sites, are usually very low prey drive and they make very good family dogs. They aren't built for sport or working so if you plan on doing that in the future I would steer away. I'm speaking of the more established "sub-breeds" and not too sure about the "big-boned" shepherd because those are in all techincality full blooded GSDs and could have the temperment of a working dog.
> 
> This information is purely from research and none of it is experience. So if I have something wrong, please correct me and I'd like to know for myself. As I've stated, I would've loved to have a huge GSD (mine will be around 100 lbs) just for the sake of being different.


Oh I wasn't disagreeing with you... the AKC should move slowly. sometimes its excessive though (boykins are over 100 years old and very distinctly different than other spaniels, the SC state dog, and more common than labs here lol)


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## Cmac25

So what do you all look for? I'm starting to think what I'm looking for doesn't exist.


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> So what do you all look for? I'm starting to think what I'm looking for doesn't exist.


If you want a working GSD thats 120lbs... those are all but mutually exclusive

Consider a rott? You can gett working rotts that big


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## martemchik

If its a type of GSD you want, it defintately exisits. But like people have said, find a breeder that breeds for what you want, or just one that will have "pet" grade puppies but with a larger sire. All you can really do is stack those odds, no matter how big the sire it doesn't guarantee that the pups will be that big. You said you wanted an agile dog, well at 120, it will lose some of that. Compared to other working GSDs, bred from Czech or DDR lines your dog might look huge and won't be even close to as agile. The biggest problem with that extra 20 to 30 lbs is that the dog really doesn't grow that much, so its the same frame carrying around more weight. That is really where you would get the health issues. But otherwise, if you really do want one that big, they won't be hard to find.


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## Andaka

Cmac25 said:


> So what do you all look for? I'm starting to think what I'm looking for doesn't exist.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Read the above before looking for a breeder. It will help you decide the good and bad points of whatever breeder you talk to. Just remember, breeders are people too and may not be perfect. You want one that has more good about them than bad.

Breed Types & Related Families

This site can help you decide what type of GSD that you want -- American show line, German show line, Euro working line (also broken down further into West German, Czech, or DDR). Then we can start to offer breeders of whichever type of dog that you choose.


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## Liesje

Cmac25 said:


> So what do you all look for? I'm starting to think what I'm looking for doesn't exist.


That could be true. I think you may be overestimating weight. Can you post some pics of GSDs that you like the look of? I have never in my life seen a GSD even close to 140lbs and I go all over to see GSD shows and trials.


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> That could be true. I think you may be overestimating weight. Can you post some pics of GSDs that you like the look of? I have never in my life seen a GSD even close to 140lbs and I go all over to see GSD shows and trials.


He did earlier... I checked out the dog and said I bet he was around 90lbs. Please go look and give your take... I'm not that good at guessing weight in person, much less from a few pics

Orry German Shepherd dog  Van Den Heuvel K9


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## Cmac25

I found a place called pioneer german shepherds last night online. I was also told about rosehall and royalair


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## Cmac25

Nah no rott I like the GSD look. Ill look at those links that talk about which type I want. I think that would help even more. I guess I am hoping that whichever one I get is just a little larger than standard. So if the standard is 85 id be ok with 95-100. Thats after reading around for a little while. I don't want one too big but I do like the idea of having one a little closer to the 100lb mark.


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## Mrs.K

Uuuugh... when I look at those dogs I don't see GSD's at all. If I wanted a big dog like that why not getting a newfoundland or st. bernard or a leonberger?


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## GSDElsa

hunterisgreat said:


> He did earlier... I checked out the dog and said I bet he was around 90lbs. Please go look and give your take... I'm not that good at guessing weight in person, much less from a few pics
> 
> Orry German Shepherd dog Van Den Heuvel K9


I doubt that Orry is 120 + pounds. I'm sure the breeder would tell you, but I really don't see a 130 pound dog doing a 1 meter jump on a regular basis.

I just think they look big, but that you are greatly overestimating what you think a giant GSD is. Very common. I did a homecheck once in which the guy claimed his current GSD was 140 pounds and made a comment that he was "small compared to his last one that just died that was 150 pounds."

It was big FAT GSD, yes....but I bet no more than 85-90 pounds.


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Nah no rott I like the GSD look. Ill look at those links that talk about which type I want. I think that would help even more. I guess I am hoping that whichever one I get is just a little larger than standard. So if the standard is 85 id be ok with 95-100. Thats after reading around for a little while. I don't want one too big but I do like the idea of having one a little closer to the 100lb mark.


So if the standard was 77lbs you'd be fine with 86lbs to 91 lbs? Mathematically the same increase percentage wise?


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## hunterisgreat

GSDElsa said:


> I doubt that Orry is 120 + pounds. I'm sure the breeder would tell you, but I really don't see a 130 pound dog doing a 1 meter jump on a regular basis.
> 
> I just think they look big, but that you are greatly overestimating what you think a giant GSD is. Very common. I did a homecheck once in which the guy claimed his current GSD was 140 pounds and made a comment that he was "small compared to his last one that just died that was 150 pounds."
> 
> It was big FAT GSD, yes....but I bet no more than 85-90 pounds.


I'm sure I could get my male over 100 in 6 months flat!

But no.. we won't be breaking 90 if I can help it (he occasionally creeps over 90 on me)


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## Cmac25

Andaka I looked at your breed types and related families link. Thank you very much for that. I liked the DDR shepherd the best out of all the ones I saw on that page. This is good lol starting to narrow down.


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## GSDElsa

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm sure I could get my male over 100 in 6 months flat!
> 
> But no.. we won't be breaking 90 if I can help it (he occasionally creeps over 90 on me)


I'm sure...but point being MOST people who think their dogs are giants just have overweight dogs. This dog wasn't much taller than My stout little (OK, stocky) female


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Andaka I looked at your breed types and related families link. Thank you very much for that. I liked the DDR shepherd the best out of all the ones I saw on that page. This is good lol starting to narrow down.


There are lots of pics around here, but like most I don't miss a chance  Here is my DDR/Slovak make. I assure you he has a commanding presence  He is about 85-88 depending on the day. p.s., the boxer is my neighbors.. they play all the time, my male just doesn't like the roof of his mouth licked


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## Liesje

I like this dog a lot. He is extremely powerful (STOPS the helper on escape bites), very fit and muscular, masculine head. He is nowhere near 120lbs.


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## hunterisgreat

GSDElsa said:


> I'm sure...but point being MOST people who think their dogs are giants just have overweight dogs. This dog wasn't much taller than My stout little (OK, stocky) female


Yeah i know... i was making a funny.

I've found the "proud of his size" types are almost always overfeeding subconsciously, b/c that number on the scale is a measure of their dog in their eyes.


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## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> Yes, all those breeds have their own registries and clubs, but they aren't accepted by the bigger kennel clubs. In my opinion, and most peoples, AKC, UKC, and those clubs are the authority on breeds, and as slow as they move, they do their job. Shilohs, kings, and the like can most times be registered with AKC as GSDs in order to get those dogs to be eligible for shows and competitions. Yes, they will never win a confirmation, but if the owner wants to try, they can as a GSD. That was my point.


I'm almost positive that a *real* Shiloh Shepherd would not and could not be registered with the AKC as a GSD. 
Dogs that look like the Shilohs may be called as such for selling and marketing purposes but if the dog is registered with the AKC as a GSD it isn't a real Shiloh it just looks like one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Lilie

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm sure I could get my male over 100 in 6 months flat!
> 
> But no.. we won't be breaking 90 if I can help it (he occasionally creeps over 90 on me)


My male came from standard type parents. He ended up being a LH, and is much larger than both his parents. He is currently 90lbs, and thin. (As stated many times) due to a foot injury he has two toes on his back foot so the vet suggests keeping him 85-92 lbs. I could beef him up over the 100 lb mark easily and risk his health on many levels.


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## Andaka

Cmac25 said:


> Andaka I looked at your breed types and related families link. Thank you very much for that. I liked the DDR shepherd the best out of all the ones I saw on that page. This is good lol starting to narrow down.


Glad I could help. I too like the DDR dogs very much. This is my American show line/DDR pup. He weighs about 85-90 pounds.


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## Cmac25

Wow both of those dogs are amazing. I guess maybe I was overestimating the weight. I have been checking out some vids on youtube of the bite things and those are pretty cool. If having a larger or oversized ones means sacraficing all of that then its not worth it to me. I dont want something that looks like a GSD but acts like a lab or something similar. I think a DDR would be something great for me.


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Wow both of those dogs are amazing. I guess maybe I was overestimating the weight. I have been checking out some vids on youtube of the bite things and those are pretty cool. If having a larger or oversized ones means sacraficing all of that then its not worth it to me. I dont want something that looks like a GSD but acts like a lab or something similar. I think a DDR would be something great for me.


You won't be doing bitework (or agility) with a 120lb gsd, thats for sure lol.


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## Liesje

Another favorite of mine. Does this dog look small and pansy? I don't think so! He weighs 88lbs.

















The dog I posted earlier is German lines (not DDR), weighs under 90lbs. He is a BIG dog, I've seen him/touched him in person.


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## Cmac25

I really like the one you showed and the one Liesje showed. Those are both DDR? Do I just google breeders?


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## Lucy Dog

I wouldn't get too hung up on weight. I can assure you that a 80-90 pound shepherd has just as much intimidation stopping power as a 100-120 pound shepherd with probably less health issues. 

Also, if you have one with a plush or long coat, that coat alone gives the dog a good 20 pounds of weight compared to one with a tight stock coat. That full fluffy coat can really make the dog look bigger than they actually are. Have you looked into the long coats?


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> I really like the one you showed and the one Liesje showed. Those are both DDR? Do I just google breeders?


I'm sure there are tons of people on this board that can direct you to a nearby or atleast someone nearby breeder with good dogs.


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## Cmac25

Where are you finding dogs like that Liesje?! Those things are awesome! They look big and muscular bit fit and agile at the same time. The more I look at those pics the more I like them.


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## Chris Wild

I think you've probably been overestimating the size on many dogs you've looked at. This dog is 85lbs. Not a Lab, clearly get's the work done, has the intimidation factor, and packs a punch... all in a standard sized package. 


























And the speed and agility is there.









And 85lbs fits on the couch better too.


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## Liesje

Cmac25 said:


> I really like the one you showed and the one Liesje showed. Those are both DDR? Do I just google breeders?


No, neither are DDR. The first is V2 Boy von Zorra SchH3 KKL1 and the second is V1 Ozzy Barnero SchH3 KKL1. Boy is west German, Ozzy I believe is Czech. They may have some DDR behind them but neither are really DDR dogs (I like the look of DDR dogs but am not a huge fan as far as temperament/working with one).

I was just trying to illustrate that you can have a very masculine, muscular dog with good bone and a nice head that does not even weigh 90lbs let alone 120. Nobody would cross you when you are out walking a dog like that. In fact you don't even need THAT much dog. I have a 50lb working line bitch and people cross the street when they see us coming (which is funny to me because she is on the shy side and does not have any bitework or protection training).


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## Emoore

Cmac25 said:


> Where are you finding dogs like that Liesje?! Those things are awesome! They look big and muscular bit fit and agile at the same time. The more I look at those pics the more I like them.


Those dogs are German Working lines and can be had from a responsible breeder of Working German Shepherds for $1000-$1500 or so. If you want one of those dogs, be prepared to spend a lot of time training and exercising and to give him a JOB! Something like Agility, Schutzhund, Obedience, etc. 

These are intelligent, drivey dogs that will lock you in the kennel and go to your job for you if you give them a chance! :hammer:


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## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> No, neither are DDR. The first is V2 Boy von Zorra SchH3 KKL1 and the second is V1 Ozzy Barnero SchH3 KKL1. Boy is west German, Ozzy I believe is Czech. They may have some DDR behind them but neither are really DDR dogs (I like the look of DDR dogs but am not a huge fan as far as temperament/working with one).


Curious as in what way, specifically between Czech & DDR? My male is DDR/Slovak... so I don't know which he favors.. thats why I ask


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## hunterisgreat

Emoore said:


> Those dogs are German Working lines and can be had from a responsible breeder of Working German Shepherds for $1000-$1500 or so. If you want one of those dogs, be prepared to spend a lot of time training and exercising and to give him a JOB! Something like Agility, Schutzhund, Obedience, etc.
> 
> These are intelligent, drivey dogs that will lock you in the kennel and go do your job for you if you give them a chance! :hammer:


Nah... can't imagine he could work the new apple magic mouse (i barely can), and she'd just eat my monitor


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## Liesje

hunterisgreat said:


> Curious as in what way, specifically between Czech & DDR? My male is DDR/Slovak... so I don't know which he favors.. thats why I ask


I don't really know, you'd have to ask Cliff or someone like that. Most of the dogs I like or follow are western European or west/Czech mix. Many dogs I like have some DDR but it's often 2, 3, 4...generations back in the pedigree. My understanding is that the DDR people only call dogs with pure DDR pedigree a "DDR dog".


----------



## Cmac25

Well im very active and enjoy the fitness lifestyle. Can I bring this dog on runs/walks? Play fetch with it on top of those other things?


----------



## Emoore

Cmac25 said:


> Well im very active and enjoy the fitness lifestyle. Can I bring this dog on runs/walks? Play fetch with it on top of those other things?


Absolutely, but a lot of breeders will want you to wait until he's a year old to avoid the pounding on his developing joints. Personally I think it's wise to wait before you start running him, especially on concrete or asphalt. Others disagree.

As for fetch, I don't know if you can own a German Shepherd and not play ball with it. My 8 week old is already learning!


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## Cmac25

Very nice! Im sold! That agility thing looks like a blast! I think I would have a great time with a dog like that. Liesje thanks for illustrating that point, I now see what you are all saying and I must add that I would love to have a balanced dog like that. I do want a masculine dog with a good bones and such as you described.

My next step would be looking into some breeders.


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## Lucy Dog

Cmac25 said:


> Well im very active and enjoy the fitness lifestyle. Can I bring this dog on runs/walks? Play fetch with it on top of those other things?


With a puppy, you can play fetch on softer surfaces like grass, but I'd hold off on the running (or jogging) on hard surfaces until at least a year or two. 

That repetitive running on hard surfaces isn't good for those growing bones and joints. Especially with a breed with so many joint (hip/elbow dysplasia) issues. 

You could always go the adult rescue route and start with the full on exercise right away.


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## Jessiewessie99

Has anyone showed him Puck from Spartanville Shepherds? He is one handsome handsome fellow.


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## hunterisgreat

People in person constantly remark on how pretty my male's face is... they never say anything about Katya  or if they do, its a delayed "she's pretty too" lol. Yeah yeah...


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## Chris Wild

As others have said, you want to avoid anything like jogging until the dog is more mature and the growth plates have closed.

While an active lifestyle is good because GSDs need exercise, what they need MOST is mental stimulation and quality time spent doing something one-on-one with their owners. This is where training comes in because not only is it important for having a well behaved and obedient dog, and builds a good bond between dog and owner, but it provides the dog with some sort of "job". All the physical exercise in the world won't accomodate a GSD if it is not also getting a lot of mental exercise and stimulation.


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## Cmac25

Well I def want to do whats best for him. I will not work him too fast. But the bite work vids and the agility vids look awesome! I like going for walks and jogs just not alone lol. Fetch is awesome too. My father has some land and a huge backyard I could bring him to. Thats where he takes his dog to run and play all the time.


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## Cmac25

Do I need breed specific books and videos for tips? My father has had numerous dogs and I believe has that bond with the current dog. She follows him everywhere and wants to be wherever he is and she listens. Ill give the dog everything it needs but ill be learning as well.


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## Lucy Dog

Chris Wild said:


> As others have said, you want to avoid anything like jogging until the dog is more mature and the growth plates have closed.
> 
> While an active lifestyle is good because GSDs need exercise, what they need MOST is mental stimulation and quality time spent doing something one-on-one with their owners. This is where training comes in because not only is it important for having a well behaved and obedient dog, and builds a good bond between dog and owner, but it provides the dog with some sort of "job". All the physical exercise in the world won't accomodate a GSD if it is not also getting a lot of mental exercise and stimulation.


110% agreed. It's really important to give our dogs that mental stimulation. 

People know GSD's as being smart dogs, but that can also be what makes it so difficult for us as owners. A GSD with no structure and training can really get out of control. They aren't going to turn into the dogs you see on TV and in movies. 

It takes a lot of training, throughout their entire lives, to get and stay at that point where you want them to be. People often don't realize how difficult it can be to own a breed as smart as this breed. Mental stimulation is an absolute must.


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## Liesje

Another suggestion would be to visit some agility or Schutzhund (bitework) clubs in your area, because people can probably suggest good local breeders or hook you up with someone.


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## Cmac25

Are there books I should be reading before I own one of these? How are you providing mental stimulation? I dont know if there are any of these clubs around here. Ive never seen or heard of one. Its a very small area.


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## Lucy Dog

Cmac25 said:


> Are there books I should be reading before I own one of these? How are you providing mental stimulation? I dont know if there are any of these clubs around here. Ive never seen or heard of one. Its a very small area.


Post your area (upstate NY is a pretty general region) and I'm sure you'll get input on some good training facilities.


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## Cmac25

Ok done, So what I would be looking for now would be a DDR type which is a working type like the pictures you guys have been posting correct?


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Ok done, So what I would be looking for now would be a DDR type which is a working type like the pictures you guys have been posting correct?


Judging from your interest in agility & schH I would say stick with working lines. I wouldn't commit to DDR yet. Give non-DDR dogs a chance to win your respect  Have an open mind and resist going with the first breeder.. force yourself to talk to a bunch and go SEE the dogs.


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## Cmac25

How much diff are the working dogs and DDR? Why do you say not to go with a DDR first?


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## Emoore

Cmac25 said:


> How much diff are the working dogs and DDR? Why do you say not to go with a DDR first?


Do you know what DDR means? 

Go back through the 15-or so pages of threads in the "Bloodlines and Pedigrees" section. There's a ton of info there and it will answer a bunch of your question.


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## Cmac25

German Shepherds, German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherd Puppy For Sale, German Shepherd Breeder, German Shepherd Dogs, German Shepherd Stud Dog, West German German Shepherds, German Shepherds California, West Coast German Shepherds



This seems like a pretty legit site so far.


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## Emoore

Cmac25 said:


> German Shepherds, German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherd Puppy For Sale, German Shepherd Breeder, German Shepherd Dogs, German Shepherd Stud Dog, West German German Shepherds, German Shepherds California, West Coast German Shepherds
> 
> 
> 
> This seems like a pretty legit site so far.


Those are West German show lines, pretty different from what you say you want.


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## Cmac25

Yes I do, I read enough that I know it stands for Deutsche Demokratische Republik. I know that they tend to have heavier bone structure and larger heads. They were around after WW2 I believe.


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## Cmac25

Geez this is so hard lol. Just when I think im finding something after figuring out what I want I find something else.


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## Liesje

There are a lot of nuances in temperament and such. That is why I suggest to visit some clubs, see the dogs* in action*, pick out the ones you like (not just looks) and talk to the owners about their lines and where they got them. The first dog I posted pics of earlier, I've seen that dog and met that dog and bought a puppy by him. I don't care if he's not the national champion, I like how he acts on and off the field. It's more that just the looks/type. There's nothing wrong with preferring a certain look and pursuing that but you have to also understand the temperament. I personally love the looks of a DDR dog, but likely will never own or train one.


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## Cmac25

Well I can try to look for some clubs but I am not so sure there are that many near me. Ive never seen or heard of one but ill look. I dug up this thread. All the dogs are gorgeous but then again I am only going by looks when I say that. Its safe to say I feel overwhelmed/intimidated lol. So many threads to sort through in attempts to learn things.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/100503-czech-ddr-lines-3.html


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## hunterisgreat

DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik... just means they are from lines originating from cold war east germany. 

by working dogs, we just mean dogs that were breed for work ability, not appearance. As such, their appearances vary more than say, conformation driven breeders


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## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Well I can try to look for some clubs but I am not so sure there are that many near me. Ive never seen or heard of one but ill look. I dug up this thread. All the dogs are gorgeous but then again I am only going by looks when I say that. Its safe to say I feel overwhelmed/intimidated lol. So many threads to sort through in attempts to learn things.
> 
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/100503-czech-ddr-lines-3.html


You won't. They don't like to be out on display for the public, because we get tired of explaining to morons that we aren't dog fighting, we aren't a public danger, we aren't trying to kill their children, etc etc.

I was doing bite development in my yard one day and a lady came and gave me an earful right after the vick incident, about training my dog for fighting. I had to spend 30 minutes educating someone that I'll never get back


----------



## Cmac25

So DDR are bread more for look rather than ability and before jumping on that what you're saying is to look at the ones bred for ability first and that I would be surprised. Also from what Liesje is saying it sounds like a DDR would be harder to train? Am I starting to get it a little? lol


----------



## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> So DDR are bread more for look rather than ability and before jumping on that what you're saying is to look at the ones bred for ability first and that I would be surprised. Also from what Liesje is saying it sounds like a DDR would be harder to train? Am I starting to get it a little? lol


lol no... I *think* all DDR are bred for working, but someone else will have to confirm that (surely they had show/pet/nonworking GSDs in east germany???)

All the DDR dogs I've seen are bred for working... I'd go so far as to say if you see a sable color or all black its probably from working stock. That doesn't mean it still is working quality... anyone with enough cash can go buy a world class level dog and breed it with his beloved, but troubled, BYB dog at home and sell expensive puppies, while promising you they'll have all the abilities of the working dog parent. This is why you need to go experience the adults its coming from.

Puppy selection and temperament determination is a science and art in and off itself.


----------



## Cmac25

Well thanks for tolerating at least lol. So are you telling me to try a working line first because of temperment issues? I really liked the fact that DDR's are known for the heavier bone structure and bigger heads. I liked that I could do a sport with them if I got into it or just play fetch go for runs walks whichever or find a club and go to that. I like the options. Just trying to understand the differences. I am searching and looking through but there is just a lot going on so will be awhile.


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## Cmac25

That website that I posted before, I called them but they havent called me back yet. They have a facility in upstate NY. The one was named ozzy or orry I think and you said he looked 85-90lbs.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> Well thanks for tolerating at least lol. So are you telling me to try a working line first because of temperment issues? I really liked the fact that DDR's are known for the heavier bone structure and bigger heads. I liked that I could do a sport with them if I got into it or just play fetch go for runs walks whichever or find a club and go to that. I like the options. Just trying to understand the differences. I am searching and looking through but there is just a lot going on so will be awhile.


As people have said, all GSD's need a job to do. Fetch isn't a job. Alot of bad behaviour people have could be resolved if the dog had some purpose in life and ended the day physically and mentally tired.

DDR's tend to be heavier structure from what I've seen, but I've seen alot less dogs than many people on this very thread so they may chime in and show me I'm wrong.

B/c you expressed an interest in agility work, and SchH work (which is NOT just biting a guy in a sleeve...), working lines seems a good way to go, and because you said you're super active. Working lines have higher drives. Ignore those drives at your own peril. If you don't plan on putting the do to work somehow then a more mellow dog might be your better route. No GSD's are (should be) lethargic couch dogs

You need to have a very clear idea what you want out of the dog (lifestyle, behaviour, etc.. not what you want it to look like) to really be effective in selecting the right dog


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## Cmac25

Alright, I understand. So by giving the GSD a job you mean something like agility work, bite work. Something to give it a purpose so it doesn't just lay around all day where its only excitement is going outside for a run or walk. Well I don't know of any clubs right now so I cant say I could realistically get into that at the moment. Im not in a rush or anything.

I do want an athletic dog, one that I can run with and take on longer walks or play fetch with. But I also want it to be able to just hang out and be good around kids and family members. I also want it to be able to do home protection etc. So I guess I need something well balanced. However I do love the way a german shepherd looks which is why I don't want something else. Does any of that make any sense?


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## AbbyK9

Cmac - What I would be looking for if I were in your place would be a breeder who produces working-line Shepherds - Czech, Slovak, or DDR dogs or a mixture thereof - since that seems to be the look you like in your dog. 

Trust people experienced in dogs to recommend a breeder who produces dogs not just with good working ability but also with a solid temperament, and also explain to the breeder(s) you are considering that this is the first dog of this type you are looking to purchase and that, while you are very active, this will be more of a "pet" home than a "sport/working" home. 

A good breeder should be able to select a "pet quality" pup from the litter that will be a great dog to do things with but maybe won't be the next top competitor in Schutzhund. That's not to say you could not get into Schutzhund or other sports, but you are primarily looking for a pet/companion.

If you are serious about wanting to get involved in dog sports, understand that you will likely have to travel a fair deal - many clubs can be 2 or 3 hours away - and that it is not cheap between club expenses and travel expenses to do so.

It would be worth locating a "local" club and going there to observe their training and ask questions. Maybe you could even get breeder recommendations if you see any dogs at the club that you really like. There is a listing of New England region Schutzhund clubs here --> New England Region of USA

From their list, looks like the closest club to you is in Johnson City, just over an hour's drive from Corning. It is Schutzengel Working Dog Club --> SchutzengelWorkingDogClub

Also, I think we all need to get away from measuring the size of a dog in its weight rather than its height at the withers. It's difficult to define size based on weight since there are so many factors that contribute to the weight of a dog, such as the type of bone structure, the type of coat, and whether the dog is healthy and muscular or just plain fat. (I've noticed many breeders who purposely produce "oversize" dogs brag about the weight, and often their dogs are just plain fat, not muscular and athletic.)

Also, how intimidating a dog is and how commanding the dog's presence has very little to do with its weight or even bone and not a whole lot with his size. I can assure you that my little 55lbs Malinois' presence is plenty commanding.  She's the dog in my avatar.


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## hunterisgreat

You can make his job to go get the newspaper, find your keys, and run squirrels off the property... he just needs something to focus on and think about.


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## Liesje

Cmac25 said:


> So DDR are bread more for look rather than ability and before jumping on that what you're saying is to look at the ones bred for ability first and that I would be surprised. Also from what Liesje is saying it sounds like a DDR would be harder to train? Am I starting to get it a little? lol


Not quite. It's not just looks vs. ability. My experience with the DDR dogs that I have known and observed first hand is that they tend to mature very slowly mentally, they tend to be much more suspicious than my west German show and working line dogs, they tend to have less prey drive. It is crucial that they have a close bond with the handler and that the handler really understands the dog so as not to put too much pressure on the dog. Again this is just MY EXPERIENCE and I do not mean to generalize, just saying what I've observed. I have a west German puppy who is 5 months old and I can take him out in a new place with a crowd of new people and have him do some obedience totally focused on me for nothing more than a Cheerio in my hand whereas the DDR dog we've had out at our club has more natural suspicion and becomes more tense and distracted in a new environment with strange people and sometimes has trouble overcoming this. With patience, time, and the right handling the dog will be fine, but the dog is definitely more affected by environment and is the type of dog that would do better if not worked/trained seriously until 18 months or older. I'm sure there are DDR dogs that are social butterfly prey monsters who will march through plate glass at six months for a treat or a ball but that hasn't been my experience. I think they are fabulous, beautiful animals that have a serious presence and command respect, but for how I like to train and for my lifestyle I prefer a dog that in general is a bit more animated in their work early on and less suspicious overall.


----------



## hunterisgreat

AbbyK9 said:


> Cmac - What I would be looking for if I were in your place would be a breeder who produces working-line Shepherds - Czech, Slovak, or DDR dogs or a mixture thereof - since that seems to be the look you like in your dog.
> 
> Trust people experienced in dogs to recommend a breeder who produces dogs not just with good working ability but also with a solid temperament, and also explain to the breeder(s) you are considering that this is the first dog of this type you are looking to purchase and that, while you are very active, this will be more of a "pet" home than a "sport/working" home.
> 
> A good breeder should be able to select a "pet quality" pup from the litter that will be a great dog to do things with but maybe won't be the next top competitor in Schutzhund. That's not to say you could not get into Schutzhund or other sports, but you are primarily looking for a pet/companion.
> 
> If you are serious about wanting to get involved in dog sports, understand that you will likely have to travel a fair deal - many clubs can be 2 or 3 hours away - and that it is not cheap between club expenses and travel expenses to do so.
> 
> It would be worth locating a "local" club and going there to observe their training and ask questions. Maybe you could even get breeder recommendations if you see any dogs at the club that you really like. There is a listing of New England region Schutzhund clubs here --> New England Region of USA
> 
> From their list, looks like the closest club to you is in Johnson City, just over an hour's drive from Corning. It is Schutzengel Working Dog Club --> SchutzengelWorkingDogClub
> 
> Also, I think we all need to get away from measuring the size of a dog in its weight rather than its height at the withers. It's difficult to define size based on weight since there are so many factors that contribute to the weight of a dog, such as the type of bone structure, the type of coat, and whether the dog is healthy and muscular or just plain fat. (I've noticed many breeders who purposely produce "oversize" dogs brag about the weight, and often their dogs are just plain fat, not muscular and athletic.)
> 
> Also, how intimidating a dog is and how commanding the dog's presence has very little to do with its weight or even bone and not a whole lot with his size. I can assure you that my little 55lbs Malinois' presence is plenty commanding.  She's the dog in my avatar.


lol... please don't even encourage him to consider a mal.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Liesje said:


> Not quite. It's not just looks vs. ability. My experience with the DDR dogs that I have known and observed first hand is that they tend to mature very slowly mentally, they tend to be much more suspicious than my west German show and working line dogs, they tend to have less prey drive. It is crucial that they have a close bond with the handler and that the handler really understands the dog so as not to put too much pressure on the dog. Again this is just MY EXPERIENCE and I do not mean to generalize, just saying what I've observed. I have a west German puppy who is 5 months old and I can take him out in a new place with a crowd of new people and have him do some obedience totally focused on me for nothing more than a Cheerio in my hand whereas the DDR dog we've had out at our club has more natural suspicion and becomes more tense and distracted in a new environment with strange people and sometimes has trouble overcoming this. With patience, time, and the right handling the dog will be fine, but the dog is definitely more affected by environment and is the type of dog that would do better if not worked/trained seriously until 18 months or older. I'm sure there are DDR dogs that are social butterfly prey monsters who will march through plate glass at six months for a treat or a ball but that hasn't been my experience. I think they are fabulous, beautiful animals that have a serious presence and command respect, but for how I like to train and for my lifestyle I prefer a dog that in general is a bit more animated in their work early on and less suspicious overall.


So with regards to Czech/Slovak dogs, can you provide a similar level of insight?


----------



## AbbyK9

> I do want an athletic dog, one that I can run with and take on longer walks or play fetch with. But I also want it to be able to just hang out and be good around kids and family members.


For what it is worth, even a very high-energy dog can do just fine hanging out on the couch with you and being calm in the house as long as his needs to expend his energy are met properly.

For example, if you had a high-energy dog and you only had the time for, say, a half-our walk once a day, then your dog's needs would not be met and you could not reasonably expect him to settle down and sleep on the couch all day, because he would have plenty of excess energy that has nowhere to go.

Now let's say you have that same dog and you make the effort to get up earlier in the morning to go onto a run before you head to work for the day, then, when you get home, take him out again and play some fun physical games like fetch or soccer (I love just tossing a ball out for my girl, she'll keep herself busy pushing it around with her nose forever!) and toss in some training here and there, maybe fifteen minutes of basic obedience or fun brain games (hiding treats and having him find them is a great one), you have a dog that has his needs met and he'll be fine cuddled up on the couch.

It does require an effort on your end. It requires MORE of an effort if you have a very active, working-line dog than it would if you had a very calm, laid-back dog.

As far as Shiloh Shepherds and King Shepherds go, they are generally bred for the appearance of a German Shepherd at a larger size, but with more mellow temperaments. That's not to say they can't be energetic or that they don't have the instinct to do any work, but they tend to be on the lower end of the energy spectrum. One of my friends whom I train with has a Shiloh and she has done the herding instinct test (he did great and loved it) but he definitely tires much, much faster than my dog and frequently lays down and takes breaks.


----------



## AbbyK9

> lol... please don't even encourage him to consider a mal.


That wasn't my intention. Just making the point that bigger does not necessarily equal "more presence" or "more intimidating".


----------



## Cmac25

So basically the DDR can be harder to train? Im not buying a GSD soley for dog sports. It could be something I get into. It does look fun and I like having the option. I want something balanced. It sounds to me like you guys bought the ones you bought soley for dog sports and not a mixture of dog sports/companion unless im missunderstanding.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Cmac25 said:


> So basically the DDR can be harder to train? Im not buying a GSD soley for dog sports. It could be something I get into. It does look fun and I like having the option. I want something balanced. It sounds to me like you guys bought the ones you bought soley for dog sports and not a mixture of dog sports/companion unless im missunderstanding.


I'm totally a mix. They are both companion animals first and foremost. My dogs are with me 24/7


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## Cmac25

Well thats what im going for. The only time mine wouldnt be with me is at work and thats the same way my father is with his dog. He takes her everywhere he can. I plan on doing the same. I like the fact that these are highly intelligent dogs. I won't get bored with it. I want to be able to do a wide array of things with it and most of all I want a dog that is trainable, I want obedience as well.


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## Castlemaid

A well balanced working line will adjust to normal house life without any problems. Having a dog that can hang out in the house and get along with my other dog and my cats when I'm at work, is safe out and about in public, and has the drive and willingness to work for Schutzhund was what I went looking for, and what I got. 

I can have lazy day where my working line only gets a couple of half-hour leash walks, and he is fine with that. I train obedience at home here and there, go to club training once a week (or more sometimes), so average amount of training anyone with a GSD should do anyways, and that is fine for him. He has plenty of drive and energy, world level competitors that have seen him work had nothing but admiration for him (one such person here to give a weekend seminar was the whole time muttering under his breath different plans for smuggling Gryffon home with him, he liked him so much), but my dogs live in the house with me, and are my buddies and friends first. Activities are important, but only second to being a house companion. He is turning out on the large side, but the breeder was not breeding for size, neither would I have gone to such a breeder. I got him from a breeder who breeds for balanced dog that can fulfill the role of family companion and be a well balanced working dog with a good "off" switch, and that is what I got.


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## Cmac25

That sounds exactly what I need and want. I live in upstate NY though. I think I need somebody who is 4-5 hours away. I think anything more than that can be extremely difficult. Theres a schutzund club in johnson city which is about an hour from me so thats not bad. Looks like its time to start thinking about selling the M3 lol.


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## JakodaCD OA

if that's what you want) I would talk to Chris Wild (here on the board) ask about her dogs or ask her for a referral to someone in your area..


----------



## GSDElsa

Olgameister
Van Gogh
Vom Rheinland

Not a lot of working line kennels that are reputable near upstate NY.

Also user dawnandjr on here recently had a litter that I believe is 1/2 DDR. I don't know her personally, but know the stud that she bred her bitch to the last litter. 

Jody Potter in MA--again, don't know her personally but have seen a few of her dogs.

ETA: Those above are small breeders that generally take who they sell puppies to pretty seriously from what I've seen, so definitely have your ducks in a row if you talk to any of them.


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## Cmac25

I just read her article on choosing a breeder. I just want a nice mix. Since there is a club about an hour away I may go check it out and I may not but I will def learn how to take care of one of these before I purchase one.


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## Rei

Around 82 lbs. Great presence. People who have known him since he was 8 weeks old, people who stop us to say "hi" to him on our walks, will cross the street so they do not walk right past him when he is in our driveway. He doesn't bark when others go past him and he is outside, especially when I ask him to keep quiet, but when he watches someone, there is a great intensity and a message in his stare and his stance. 

Of course, don't even want to get into those 55 lb Malinois!!! Or 40 lb game bred American Pit Bull Terriers. They are forces to be reckoned with!


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## Whiteshepherds

Rei said:


>


He looks pretty intense in the profile picture. I'd probably cross the street if I saw him and didn't know him.


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## Rei

He's a real tough guy in the house, too! 










My high energy working/sport bred youngster!  Would make a great performance or beginner sport dog, but a great family companion as well. 

Not quite so serious... strangers find him quite approachable when we are out on walks.









(Off topic but I never see pictures of your Shepherds on the forums! I need my White fix - I am loving your avatar :wub


----------



## Xeph

87 pounds, intense dog when working, marshmallow when not


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## Castlemaid

Just looking at all these pictures, you can SEE the strenght and agility in the dogs. 









Gryffon, at a year and a half, 80 lbs. He still has some maturing and filling out to do. Will probably end up around 85 lbs or so. 

This is typical of him chilling in the house:









He can run!









He can jump!









And goes everywhere with me:


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## doggiedad

REI: saying your dog is from ScH, KK1 and IPO3, VPG3 dogsis good
but they're titles not genetics and the breeder could be reputable.



RogueRed26 said:


> Anything that doesn't fit the breed's standard should be questioned.





Rei said:


> That is interesting. My German Shepherd has a steep croup, stands east west, is cow hocked, and also possesses several other faults, which means that he does not conform perfectly to the breed's standard. I guess he should be questioned, too (even though most people seem to define his breeder as quite "reputable", he comes from SCHH1 KKL1 dam and IPO3 VPG3 sire).


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## Cmac25

From what I see most of you have sport bred youngsters that you work with but also have for companions and family pets as well? So if you have a sport bred it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a hardcore trainer in dog sports to own one correct? You just have to provide the exercise and mental stimulation and give it a job to do right?



The more pics I see and the more I read the more I really want one of these amazing animals. Its like they can do anything!


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## AbbyK9

> From what I see most of you have sport bred youngsters that you work with but also have for companions and family pets as well? So if you have a sport bred it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a hardcore trainer in dog sports to own one correct? You just have to provide the exercise and mental stimulation and give it a job to do right?


Yup.  As long as the dog gets the physical and mental exercise s/he needs, they're also great family companions and great pets. But you need to find a breeder that produces not just drives and looks but also great temperament.


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## Rei

doggiedad, exactly! They are titles and give little indication that the genetics of the dog and their progeny is what _I_ want to see in my ideal. 

:wub: Strauss and :wub: Gryff. Look at that dog in action!!



Cmac25 said:


> From what I see most of you have sport bred youngsters that you work with but also have for companions and family pets as well? So if you have a sport bred it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a hardcore trainer in dog sports to own one correct? You just have to provide the exercise and mental stimulation and give it a job to do right?


Yes!! Believe it or not, I chose a working/sport bred dog as my first dog and puppy! Not to say that we have not had our share of difficulties, and he IS an undeniably high energy, powerful dog, but by no means do you have to be a "hardcore" trainer or participant in the dog sports! Currently we do not train in any sport and just enjoy doing what we can at home. He is a great family pet and companion. But we also WILL start dog sports soon because of how beneficial and just plain FUN it can be for both owner and dog! 



AbbyK9 said:


> Yup.  As long as the dog gets the physical and mental exercise s/he needs, they're also great family companions and great pets. But you need to find a breeder that produces not just drives and looks but also great temperament.


x 2



Cmac25 said:


> The more pics I see and the more I read the more I really want one of these amazing animals. * Its like they can do anything!*


 :thumbup:


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## Jessiewessie99

GSDs are Superdogs. =)


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## Cmac25

I feel much less intimidated now. I am talking to a breeder currently 

There is a Schutzhund club within an hour from me but they vote members in once criteria is met. Going to try and figure out what is. Im not looking to win any trophies just looking to have fun!


Thanks for all the input,advice and noob tolerance lol. This forum has been great. I am really excited!


I dont want to make a new thread just to ask what you guys and girls do while you are at work? I work 8 hour shifts at the prison. I think I could get somebody to help let the dog out while im at work because I may be on this schedule for the next 10 years.


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## Emoore

Cmac25 said:


> I dont want to make a new thread just to ask what you guys and girls do while you are at work? I work 8 hour shifts at the prison. I think I could get somebody to help let the dog out while im at work because I may be on this schedule for the next 10 years.


Make a new thread. Also make one about the breeder if you want.


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## hunterisgreat

8 hour shifts in a prison? I'd take the dog with me


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## martemchik

If you're planning on working at that prison for a while I'd think about training a therapy dog, the both of you would enjoy that kind of work.


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## Cmac25

Its a state correctional facility we cant bring pets in lol. My father may be able to let the dog out while im there though. I wish I could take the dog with me though and yes I will be working there its my career.


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## Cmac25

martemchik said:


> If you're planning on working at that prison for a while I'd think about training a therapy dog, the both of you would enjoy that kind of work.




Im not sure what that is?


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## horsegirl

thought of this thread today as I was out walking my dogs. I met a man with a black lab, he commented on my male , how nice looking he is ect.. he then said what does he weigh 110lbs or so? I chuckled to myself and said no , he weighs close to 80 , maybe a little less. I then asked him how much his dog weighed? his dog is 78 lbs, the same as my male. perception is everything.. good luck with your search.


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## RubyTuesday

Cmac25, analyze what you're seeking in your GSD & why. Seek out those breeders that meet *your* criteria & who are producing your kind of dog.

I have 2 Royalair GSD & couldn't be more thrilled. Both are sound, stable, easily trained, adaptable, intelligent, healthy, pleasant, easy to love & live with. They are alert, discerning & possessed of solid judgment. Sam at 12 is decidedly aloof, although never hostile or intolerant. Djibouti (Sam's grandson), at 3 is driven by an innate curiosity, but slooowly becoming more aloof, although in a friendly sort of way. Neither is a 'pointy eared Golden'. At 12+yrs Sam prefers a leisurely walk or brisk trot, but Djibouti at 3 is an explosive package of canine energy capable of running humans, other dogs or livestock to exhaustion. This type of GSD isn't for everyone, but for some of us they're beyond compare. 

People fear them & cross the street when we're out. (Around here everyone fears large dogs, including smiling Goldens). In a bad neighborhood, I appreciate the 'deterrence factor', but what makes them priceless is how perfectly they mesh with me, how deeply 'simpatico' we are.

Few things can compare to living with the *right* dogs, so please, please, please be certain to find what truly suits you & your situation best. All of us might have an 'opinion' but only you can arrive at the correct answer.


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## Cmac25

Im going with a working line from debbie zappia and k9 team training.


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## JonKeepsAnOpenMind

*... interesting*



Lesley1905 said:


> I agree with Maggie! I think its rediculous what people are making these beautiful dogs turn into. I have a friend who has a GSD that is 135lbs. Even her vet tell her that they shouldn't be that big!


I have a pure black male German Shepard who currently weighs between 120 and 130 pounds. He was not bred for this nor was he given GSD. My parents own his mother who weighs a mere 60 pounds. His father, who lives in Idaho was used for over 5 years as a police dog. Now, why is he so big? I don't know but there was one other male in the litter that was bigger than him at birth, and is currently owned by my uncle and weighs about 140 pounds. Maybe these things just happen sometime, were talking about genetics here. We don't even understand human genetics, let alone canine.


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## Hineni7

I find I'm of a more balanced approach (at least in my mind). I love the GSD temperament, that is what brought me to them, however, I do prefer a leggier, balanced dog. My first GSD was a female and was about 26" and exceptionally athletic. We did SAR, agility, loooong trail rides (I train horses) and had the most balanced, aloof (to strangers, 'say hi to Sarah, Lishka' Lusaka looks at Sarah gives a nod 'hey', back to me for directions. She was unflappable (as far as what she was exposed to which was alot) and very good with other animals. 

My next GSD was another female, Selah was a silver Sable and had extremely heavy bone. She was within breed height standards but not weight, she was 24" and about 80 lean lbs. She had excellent hips, high ball drive, the sweetest temperament (although not very aloof she was very protective of me and my family) and lived to 15. She was bred to an exceptional male who was within breed standards, had 8 pups (5 of which became some sort of service dog be it police (in Galt, CA), sar, or physical service, or therapy dog). The male I kept was an will always be my heart.... Hineni (means 'here am I Lord to serve) was about 28" a solid 90+ lean lbs and an amazing athlete. He did SAR with me, would fetch anything and bring it to me, was great at herding the horses (even when I didn't want them rounded up, lol) and easy going (on and off button fully integrated). He was a great guard dog and fiercely but wisely protective. All he wanted was to please me. He had excellent rated hips/elbows, but died at 10 by a sudden obstruction (vets weren't sure what it was as a necropsy was never done) he died 4yrs ago and I still feel the pain.

I don't believe it wise to breed the temperament out of the gsd, or ultimately make them behemoths... However, I do personally enjoy a larger (up to about 28") sized dog, along with health, temperament (including drive).... 

I do believe there are conscientious breeders doing this and succeeding. Unfortunately, there are others capitalizing on a niche and causing problems. This is, however, done on any aspect of every breed. Sad but true.. 

My current female is 6mos 3weeks and 72.ilbs and 24". She is lean, solid in bone, fast and agile, intelligent (although stubborn, grr) feminine head, and I'm very proud of her learning in scent detection and tracking. Her focus in other training needs some work, but she is undeterred in scent and trail work  

Anyhow, I just know from my experiences that larger Shepherds are definitely capable of anything a smaller relative is(albeit I wouldn't want to have to carry them for, lol). I think there is a place for breeding larger Shepherds AS lancaster the temperament, structure, health is not mucked with... Super oversized..... I do have some difficulty with, when you're talking Great Dave size as a norm..... Personally, I think that is going to far... Anyhow, just wanted to share my thoughts and experiences  sorry for any typos, all being done on my phone) 

God bless, 
Misty


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## Jim moschenrose

I have 4 German shepherds my mother dog is black n tan my pups are sable , the father was the sable , I have one male 127 pounds his two sisters are over 100 pounds the mother 117 pounds and they are not over fed and in excellent shape daily workout 4 hours a day . No health issues


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## LuvShepherds

Jim moschenrose said:


> I have 4 German shepherds my mother dog is black n tan my pups are sable , the father was the sable , I have one male 127 pounds his two sisters are over 100 pounds the mother 117 pounds and they are not over fed and in excellent shape daily workout 4 hours a day . No health issues


This thread was started over 11 years ago and the people posting aren’t here anymore. Start a new thread about your dogs.


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