# Training Collars.....



## LuvourGSDs

Why is it only choke allowed in AKC, errr I don't get that & they feel that is more humane than a GL or Prong??? I'm talking about general leading around a show, not for in the ring. What is the big deal??? A flat on some dogs are even like a choke! I had Skyrah pup at this wkends show & got told by a judge no halti's allowed.  I was only walking pup around & took her with me to ck Sable in. I like a controled dog, sorry & makes me mad they do not allow to have.  Are all venues this way? First time anyone has said anything to me at a show & been using the GL on Skyrah since a baby at shows.


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## LuvourGSDs

BTW, seen easy walk harnesses being used, same tool as halti's imo.


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## selzer

Head collars, e-collars and prong collars are not allowed. It is in the rules. At least I know the prong is. If you do not like the rules, than you need to contact your AKC delegate and let your feelings be known.

Personally, I think the rule is because of the impression halti's and prong collars give to the general public. The AKC likes people to get the impression of pretty, well-trained pure-bred dogs. That is why they don't want the mutts at conformation shows. So I think if you are having a conformation show, you cannot allow the CAR dogs to compete in other events. 

I think they do not like the idea of dogs being subdued by evil-looking prongs that dig into their neck. You and I might know how they work but John Q Public does not. And lots of people think they are nasty torture devices. So the AKC does not want them at their shows, not even on companion dogs. 

I agree with them stopping you. If there is a rule, they should enforce it. Too many times they do not enforce rules at AKC shows. In general, dogs that are not entered at the show should not be brought, and dogs who are entered should not require training collars. At matches it is a whole other story. Rules are relaxed, puppies are welcome, dogs that are not entered are welcome.

The reason for this is that it costs a whole lot more to enter a point show. The crating space should be for paying customers (dogs that are entered) and the general congestion, the possibility of dogs behaving poorly should be limited by the fact that only dogs that are entered and should be accustomed to dogs and people and the show atmosphere are there. 

So there really shouldn't be dogs in halti's or prong collars there. Choke chains or slip leads have been normal show attire since forever. It is a little safer than a flat collar (prevents slipping the collar) and does not detract from the dog as much. A correction with a choke chain can NQ you from an obedience or rally run, and I do not think it would be enough for them to bring you up on charges from the AKC, I think that has to be pretty serious abuse for mistreating the dog. But you can have sanctions brought up against you for mistreating a dog, or other types of unsportsmanlike behavior, like attacking people. 

I think that they want to present the whole dog-show-deal as some type of gentleman's sport. So they will penalize behavior that is unbecoming or detrimental to the image of the AKC.


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## selzer

LuvourGSDs said:


> BTW, seen easy walk harnesses being used, same tool as halti's imo.


But not as it is perceived. Some dogs are wearing a harness because they have throat problems -- knew a leonberger that needed one. The head collar is perceived kind of somewhere between a horse halter and a muzzle.


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## Shaina

This is from my Canine Good Citizen Evaluator handbook - 



> *Coll*a*r**, *L*e*a*shes *a*nd *E*qui*p*ment*
> All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars (including martingales) made of leather, fabric, or chain. They may also wear body harnesses for the CGC test. Body harnesses should not restrict the movement of the dog. Special training equipment such as pinch collars and head collars are not permitted. The leash should be made of either leather or fabric. Retractable leashes may not be used in the CGC test. The evaluator should have available a 20-ft. line for Test #6.
> *We recognize that special training collars may be valuable equipment in the beginning stages of dog training, however, we feel that dogs are ready to be tested after they have been transitioned to a slip or buckle collar (body harnesses are also acceptable).* If an evaluator is teaching classes and does not feel comfortable with one of the permitted collars, students may be required to take the test in the type of collar used in class. If the CGC test is advertised for the general public, all of the permitted collar types and body harnesses should be allowed in the test.


Edit:

Also - in the ring, you aren't CORRECTING the dog, right? A head halter is essentially correcting the dog any time you are on a short leash, where as a chain is not. I think that is also a main difference.


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## LuvourGSDs

Sue, I see whatcha mean. Many bring new up coming pups. I just see dogs pulling & I just like control, esp with a GSD. You get looks at times just because of the breed.  See people using them retractable type leads & this drives me nuts to.  I just feel the easy walk harness is same type of tool as GL halti.  I know a dog going to shows should have good lead manners & should not need a training tool, but some still need it to a degree & the good old choke as been bashed way more than any tool out there, but they allow it to be used. :-(


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## selzer

Actually, dogs in the conformation ring often are not trained to have wonderful leash manners. They want them to pull out. I think they should train them to pull on command. But they do not want the dogs to sit at all, and they do not mind the pulling. 

They should ban retractable leashes though, just as a statement for responsible dog ownership. 

Bringing up and coming dogs to show, should only be done if it there is no statement in the premium list about unentered dogs. And even then, you can get all kinds of yuck at a dog show. I would probably leave any unentered dogs home just for that reason alone. Dog show crud -- no fun at all.


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## LuvourGSDs

Shaina said:


> This is from my Canine Good Citizen Evaluator handbook -
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Also - in the ring, you aren't CORRECTING the dog, right? A head halter is essentially correcting the dog any time you are on a short leash, where as a chain is not. I think that is also a main difference.


Ok, thanks for sharing, I will contine to train on my leather choke or martingale for now on. Just thought GL would be more humane use than chokes.


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## LuvourGSDs

selzer said:


> Actually, dogs in the conformation ring often are not trained to have wonderful leash manners. They want them to pull out. I think they should train them to pull on command. But they do not want the dogs to sit at all, and they do not mind the pulling.
> 
> They should ban retractable leashes though, just as a statement for responsible dog ownership.
> 
> Bringing up and coming dogs to show, should only be done if it there is no statement in the premium list about unentered dogs. And even then, you can get all kinds of yuck at a dog show. I would probably leave any unentered dogs home just for that reason alone. Dog show crud -- no fun at all.


Yea, not trying to start anything by bringing the pup.  Just see others do & felt if she was going to do this someday, best to get a feel for trials & behaving there early. I know AKC is all I have here local, do enjoy, but not as relaxed to a degree. This is for fun for me & my fukids, not out for blood to get titles. :-(


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## AgileGSD

I'm pretty sure that the rule is due to the impression prong collars and GLs leave on the general public. Prong collars look cruel to much of the general public and GLs look like muzzles. I can understand their position based on this.

I take usually take pups with me to shows but yeah, most AKC shows state that no unentered dogs are allowed. There are a few shows that this is strictly enforced and your unentered dog will not be allowed in. Most though, I think it's only enforced if the dog is causing a problem. As for the perceived risk of taking a puppy to a dog show, if you're worried about "dog show crud" you should keep all of the dogs at home. Once one dog gets it, the rest of the dogs in the house will be exposed too.


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## selzer

Yeah but puppies are often more susceptable. And the fewer dogs at shows, the less likely that something might be floating around. At least have the dogs there that are entered, and fewer overall dogs. The place for training is matches and dog classes, that will be all local dogs usually -- less likely that a dog will bring something into the area. But still possible to get something. I worry about it, but try not to let it stop me from doing what I need to do.


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## wildo

The funny thing about this is that there are *so many people* giving nasty or dirty looks at us with our big GSDs at or in an agility event. Not to mention how many pick up their pathetic little yippie dogs as we walk past so the "big bad GSD" doesn't "get them" as the little bastards snarl, bark, and lunge at our bigger dogs. Yet they still advocate for less controlling collars. Funny...

I guess in truth though, you can't use a prong collar or head halter for the CGC test, and you certainly can't use it for obedience trials- I guess there isn't much difference in not being able to use it agility trials.


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## martemchik

I think part of it is also that you need a really good snap with the choke to cause a meaningful correction (which you shouldn't have to do in the obedience ring) where as with the prong or halter most dogs don't require a very harsh correction to get what they should be doing. In my opinion it would be much harder for the judge to notice a correction with the prong than with a choke. I just started doing the beginning novice tests and my dog definately listens less on the choke than he does on the prong, but it is just something we're going to have to get through.

As for why they aren't allowed outside of the ring, its probably for the look of it. I've only been to a handful of shows and don't really feel like questioning age old rules that they have set up.


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## wildo

FWIW, Jen, I just found this article that you may find interesting: Head Halters VS A Flat Buckle Collar | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


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## msvette2u

I hate Haltis-- every person I've seen using them has an out of control dog in which only the head is being controlled. Their bodies are jumping around, forging ahead and the like. 
Dogs usually don't like them and fight them more than they would a flat collar.
Plus, like any training tool, it's just that -a tool - not a lifelong crutch to walk your dog in.


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## DunRingill

LuvourGSDs said:


> Ok, thanks for sharing, I will contine to train on my leather choke or martingale for now on. Just thought GL would be more humane use than chokes.


Depends on the dog. Many dogs would rather wear a slip collar than a halti!


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## wildo

DunRingill said:


> Depends on the dog. Many dogs would rather wear a slip collar than a halti!


At the same time- many, many people don't properly associate the head collar with reward.


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## DunRingill

Many shows specifically ban flexi-leads. and many shows also specify no unentered dogs on show grounds. 

TECHNICALLY, if your puppy isn't old enough to be shown (over 6 months) you aren't even supposed to bring her to the show. People do it anyway for socialization....the rule is really only enforced if the person is causing a problem. Don't put a prong or head halter on your youngster and that way you won't call attention to yourself


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## DunRingill

martemchik said:


> As for why they aren't allowed outside of the ring, its probably for the look of it. I've only been to a handful of shows and don't really feel like questioning age old rules that they have set up.


It's partly because of the look, AKC is obsessed with how everything looks to that "family of four" that might be watching. But it's also because unentered dogs aren't supposed to be near the rings, and if your dog is trained enough to be entered at a show they shouldn't need a training collar.


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## martemchik

I agree with you DunRingill on the part that most dogs would rather wear a slip. If you don't actually use the collar to choke your dog then its a much better representation of how obedient your dog is and is not inhumane at all. The prong gets the "more humane" title because it takes much less of a correction to get what you want out of a dog without the "choking" action going on. I think that if your dog is choking itself on a slip collar, you shouldn't be in the ring anyways or at a show altogether, and should be working with another training device to correct this.

I've been slowly moving him from the prong to the choke and the first few training days/walks outside were a pain. He did manage to choke himself a few times but quickly figured out he shouldn't. Dogs know when they have "harsher" training collars on them and listen much better when those are used. Even my dog, who doesn't train off leash yet, is a much better listener when the prong is on and off leash to when just a flat collar is on. So if you're really looking at how good a dog is, you shouldn't be allowed to wear those types of training aids.


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## wildo

DunRingill said:


> and if your dog is trained enough to be entered at a show they shouldn't need a training collar.





martemchik said:


> I think that if your dog is choking itself on a slip collar, you shouldn't be in the ring anyways or at a show altogether, and should be working with another training device to correct this.


You guys do realize this was posted in the Agility forum, right? Last I checked- dogs do *not* wear a collar or lead when running agility. The dog's training to do the sport of agility has little to do with their training outside the ring... Your responses seem much more directed at someone posting in, say, the Obedience forum.


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## martemchik

I know my responses were based more towards obedience but AKC rules are the same no matter what kind of event is going on. So if you need a prong collar to keep control of your dog before it enters the agility ring the AKC is going to have an issue with it even if you have the fastest agility dog in the United States. AKC wants to show good, balanced, well trained dogs, no matter what "ring" they are competing in.


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## wildo

I dunno- I'm just saying that you both indicated that someone shouldn't even be able to participate in a sport (that is off lead) when the dog doesn't have good on-lead skills. I think that's an extreme perspective. I do understand that the OP is talking about skills outside the ring. I still disagree that a dog must show perfect obedience outside the ring in a sport that is not particularly based on obedience. 

AKC is also not the only venue for agility and I wouldn't mind seeing a quote from their website stating their goal for agility is to show "good, balanced, well trained dogs" both inside and out of the ring. I suspect their goal for agility is the same as other venues- to showcase the awesome agility of dogs and their ability to follow handler commands often from a distance.


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## Liesje

The thing is, with a slip/choke collar, the dog is *not* going to get away from you. Yes, show dogs, obedience dogs, rally dogs, etc should be "trained" but a dog is still a dog. You never know how a dog is going to react on any given day. If a dog spooks, I'd rather have a slip collar on that dog so it can't slip a flat collar or bust out of a halti with plastic snaps. Assuming that the dog *is* trained as it should be for a show, when *not* use a slip collar just to be safe? Plus they are just easy to use, quick on/off, and a lot of people (myself included) have some nice slip leads.


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## AgileGSD

Plenty of very good obedience, agility and conformation dogs pull on lead.



wildo said:


> At the same time- many, many people don't properly associate the head collar with reward.


 This is true but it's hard to argue that a lot of dogs find head collars naturally aversive. Even with desensitization, some dogs are never totally ok with wearing GLs. And the fact that they need desensitized tells the sort of effect it tends to have one dogs. I most often suggest them for reactive or aggressive dogs because just wearing one tends to have a subduing effect on many dogs. For lack of better description, it makes them sad. Sometimes too sad to try to lunge at passing dogs 



Liesje said:


> The thing is, with a slip/choke collar, the dog is *not* going to get away from you. Yes, show dogs, obedience dogs, rally dogs, etc should be "trained" but a dog is still a dog. You never know how a dog is going to react on any given day. I


 Slip leads are very popular in agility and perfectly acceptable at shows/trials. They don't "look bad" the way GLs or prong collars do. 



Liesje said:


> The thing is, with a slip/choke collar, the dog is *not* going to get away from you. Yes, show dogs, obedience dogs, rally dogs, etc should be "trained" but a dog is still a dog. You never know how a dog is going to react on any given day. I


 Slip leads are very popular in agility and perfectly acceptable at shows/trials. They don't "look bad" the way GLs or prong collars do.


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## DunRingill

wildo said:


> I dunno- I'm just saying that you both indicated that someone shouldn't even be able to participate in a sport (that is off lead) when the dog doesn't have good on-lead skills. I think that's an extreme perspective. I do understand that the OP is talking about skills outside the ring. I still disagree that a dog must show perfect obedience outside the ring in a sport that is not particularly based on obedience.


I don't care what specific sport we're talking about.....if the dog needs to wear a training collar (prong or halti) in order to be kept under control at ringside, then the dog probably isn't ready to trial. Especially when the dog will be trialed offlead. I don't agree that it's an extreme perspective, it's actually a pretty ordinary perspective.


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## JakodaCD OA

CPE is about the only agility org where you can walk your dog around with a prong collar UNLESS it is otherwise stated in their premium..

I really think those dang flexi's should be banned from shows before a prong collar


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## DunRingill

JakodaCD OA said:


> I really think those dang flexi's should be banned from shows before a prong collar


I agree!!!! I've been "flexi-burned" several times, grrrrrr.


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## martemchik

Sorry wildo, if you need to see exact quotes to make something true and for you to believe it then I'm sorry to say this is one thing you're going to have to live with. I guess according to you an agility dog can listen from a distance and run fast, then leave the ring and bite someone, but since its awesome at agility it should be showcased. I was just trying to say that the dog should behave, but without an exact quote from the website or other proper material I guess its not true, so sorry I said that.


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## wildo

Haha- awesome! Because, you know, the only definition of an "out of control" dog is an aggressive dog, right? Err... maybe you should reconsider that next time your around a dog seriously amped up to go do its sport of choice.

And for what it's worth- when you make a comment indicating that you are speaking for someone, be prepared to be asked to back up your statement.



martemchik said:


> AKC wants to show good, balanced, well trained dogs, no matter what "ring" they are competing in.


Can you back up that claim? Cause, you know, I read their mission statement and it says nothing about "good, balanced, and well trained dogs."


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## martemchik

Ok fine, you win, they don't have it on their website, so that means that the dogs can be as out of control as possible. And fyi, that was an example, I know not all out of control dogs are aggressive. But you're right, its not on the website so its not true. So I guess anything not written on a website of any sort is not true. Man, wikipedia must love you.


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## martemchik

Actually here we go, the AKC code of sportsmanship, last bullet point:
​ 
Sportsmen refuse to embarrass the sport, the American Kennel Club, or themselves while taking part in the sport.

I know that "embarrass" might be too broad of a term for you, but it pretty much leaves it open for the judge to be able to NQ you for anything they don't see fit.


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## selzer

I have trained in agility and trialed in obedience and rally. Dogs ready for an agility trial have to be able to follow basic directions off lead. They are not untrained totally. And even so. At a show there are a kagilian people of all shapes and sizes, and a like assortment of dogs. No way should any dog requiring a prong collar be taken to a dog show. If the dog needs to get used to the atmosphere finda a match. If the dog needs socialization, find a match. By the time they are shown in the ring, they should be beyond aides to keep them from pulling you to China.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> No way should any dog requiring a prong collar be taken to a dog show. If the dog needs to get used to the atmosphere finda a match. If the dog needs socialization, find a match. By the time they are shown in the ring, they should be beyond aides to keep them from pulling you to China.


 A dog who pulls on lead shouldn't be taken to a dog show? I'm thinking _a lot_ of dogs would be kicked out if this were an AKC rule


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## MaggieRoseLee

AgileGSD said:


> A dog who pulls on lead shouldn't be taken to a dog show? I'm thinking _a lot_ of dogs would be kicked out if this were an AKC rule


Hm.....both my dogs :wild:

The mix of wanting your dog cranked up and drivey to run fast at the trial, also makes it a bit of a challenge to have them not dragging us into the ring to go go go go go!


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## LuvourGSDs

Well, Skyrah is go, go, go lol if not on a training collar. :0 Tried a choke at reg obed class last night & just hate the choking & choking till you put your hand down to physically put in a sit, etc. Most of the time was ok, but if she gets excited or wants to go see someone dog or person she knows, well, off to China we go! Hate the choking on a flat or choke so, do rely on my prong & really do with my 90 # boy as I do want control of a situation if it pops up when out & about in public. Found the prong has been the best tool for our GSDs. Have liked the GL with the pup tho. I guess I also need to do tons of lead walking to get better at, which bad about since we live out & have property to run lead free. I just remember with my last pup, Storm using the old chain choke, all I knew about at that time & got drilled for using & about the harm they cause.


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## martemchik

It's taken me about a month to get him used to walking normally on a choke collar. It takes me one or two really good corrections when he first starts pulling and then he falls in line. It made me kind of upset to realize how much I rely on the prong collar to keep control of him and I don't really want to have to.

I realize there is a balance between having your dog go fast inside the agility ring, and also not being excited outside of it so they pull to get in, but in my opinion 95% of the time your dog is a dog out in public and he shouldn't be pulling (but in public we are allowed to use prongs) so training them to have an off switch is a pretty useful tool. As much as I like showing off my dog inside the ring, he really gets to show his obedience and how good of a dog he is in public and thats where he can affect many more people's opinions on him/the breed.

Keep working with the other collar, make sure the choke is right up under his chin, that way you control the head better and the corrections don't have to be as harsh. They figure it out after a little bit that just because the big bad prong isn't on they can't just do what they want.


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## msvette2u

The purpose of a choke chain isn't to choke the dog but rather to give corrections. 
If it's taut all the time it's not doing it's job correctly or the dog is not trained for loose leash walking. 
The leash should not be taut nor should the collar.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

I've only been to a couple AKC trials and that was years ago. In the many, many USDAA and NADAC trials I've been to, I've never seen a single dog with any type of corrective collar on. Everyone has their agility slip lead/tug leashes (which are humane slip leads- not choke) and none of the dogs are out of control. I'm not sure training collars are allowed anyway.

USDAA rule violations:


> Violation of procedural rules (for example: smoking in the ring, display of training collars,
> etc.)​
> ​​Compulsive, correctional training on the grounds​


Personally, I like these rules for agility.


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## LuvourGSDs

BTW, Not stating my guys are crazy out of control, but the prong has been my #1 cushion & sure would like to not have to rely on it, but do to a degree & probably more than I would like. Our adopted hard head Shadow & his excitement at certain things & his power, you got to have control & not sure a choke would do the best on his butt.  I just know I like control & feel with this breed, if ya don't, the evil eyes stare.


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## LuvourGSDs

I use a leather slip for my older dogs in & out of the ring, but for general walking around at a show, can be a pain. My older girl Sable does best on it. I see some dogs pulling way out forward or on retractables, way out forward & this can cause problems imo with some dogs as they might not like a dog coming right at them. I like my crew rt at my side...


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## LuvourGSDs

Do you feel a chain choke gives a different correction than a leather choke, by it's sound? I tried a martingale first thing when Skyrah was way young, worked ok for awhile, but still pulled. I switched to a GL & prong & have bounced between using them the last few months.


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## martemchik

I don't doubt your dogs aren't crazy out of control, they just like to pull sometimes and in those cases you need a collar to control them. I have a 15 month old working line with a very active nose who loves to play with all other dogs. We went from a chain martingale (with the flat part being nylon) to a prong and it was like having a new dog at 7 months. Now when I took off the prong I realized that he wasn't as trained as I had thought he was and I felt bad about myself as a trainer, I felt like I took the easy way out and just put on a training collar. If I wanted to I could have it on for the rest of his life and he would be fine, but I prefer to at one point be able to walk him on a flat collar without any pulling or craziness.

I think it just takes time and maturity (on the dog's part) to wean them off the training collar. And of course a lot of training so that they do concentrate more on you than the world around them. I think collars are different for every dog, some react to the sound of the chain without needing the "pain" portion of the correction, while others don't care about the pain at all (mine). I think you have to see what works for you, and not worry too much about the "humane" and "inhumane" connotation that comes with the collar, your goal should always be to be in control of your dog, and sadly some dogs need a harsher collar.


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## rumhelka

I have three dogs and I use different collars on each of them. My 35 pound mix has just a flat leather collar, my 60 pound hound-shepherd mix is on "prong" and my 6 months old GSD Baby has an "easy walk" halter. I use the prong not because my dog pulls all the time but because she might pull unexpectedly when she sees a squirrel. A prong works like a power steering on your car, much easier to steer!!!


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## selzer

AgileGSD said:


> A dog who pulls on lead shouldn't be taken to a dog show? I'm thinking _a lot_ of dogs would be kicked out if this were an AKC rule


I said pulling you to China, not pulls. But I stand by it. Prong collars are not allowed at AKC shows period and I agree with the rule. If the dog needs a prong collar, they should not be there. Stay home and train your dog. 

At AKC shows and others, from the other post, it seems many Agility dogs CAN perform without being out of control. Prong collars have no place at AKC shows.

I have used choke chains, but I do not use them as correction collars, they are simply slip collars, they attach you to the dog, the dog cannot back out of them, and that is about it. Most of the people who I train with that go to shows, if they use a slip collar it is some type of cloth. Cloth does not slide like the chain and does not really dish out a correction, and when I trained my first show dog, Arwen, we used a cotton choker and nothing else. It worked great. I never had to deliver a stiff correction and that would not have done it if I needed to.

I have trained Joy in agility and the only collar she has ever had on was a martingale. I trialed her in Rally in a martingale. 

It is the dependence on the prong collar that bothers me. Trainers are happy to see people come week after week, year after year with the dogs on these collars. Little dogs, big dogs, energetic dogs, and dogs that have no business being on prongs. I suppose if I was a trainer, I would rather see people give a pop on a prong, than having someone say, "Ooooh little itsy bitsy Piffy poo, you know its not nice to growl at the lady. Now you be a good wittle Piffy Pootsy and you will get a yummy treat." Given that choice I would take ten prong collar poppers over one of those. 

But by the time we get to shows. Yorkies and Shih tsus need to be on the ground, and everyone needs to be under control without the aid of special training aids. Training aids are for training. When you are at the show you are not supposed to be training. And trainers should be pushing people beyond their comfort zone, pushing them to teach the heel position, and then teach them to move out of the prongs. Because the better trainers are out there at shows trialing their dogs, and they are not walking them on the show grounds on prong collars. 

Trainers are far too complacent. Dogs that still need the prong are simply not trained. The owner is trained in the use of a prong collar. Well that is something. That is worth maybe 10 minutes if they taught you how to fit it properly and perform a correction. 

Positive trainers get a lot guff from people, but they are doing a whole lot more for their students.


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## LuvourGSDs

BOY, you hit the nail right on the head with everything you posted here.  I was not out to start a war here guys.  I was just shocked I guess getting nailed for a GL use. Seen easy walks being used & felt no biggie. Now I know!! is


LuvourGSDs said:


> BTW, Not stating my guys are crazy out of control, but the prong has been my #1 cushion & sure would like to not have to rely on it, but do to a degree & probably more than I would like. Our adopted hard head Shadow & his excitement at certain things & his power, you got to have control & not sure a choke would do the best on his butt.  I just know I like control & feel with this breed, if ya don't, the evil eyes stare.





martemchik said:


> I don't doubt your dogs aren't crazy out of control, they just like to pull sometimes and in those cases you need a collar to control them. I have a 15 month old working line with a very active nose who loves to play with all other dogs. We went from a chain martingale (with the flat part being nylon) to a prong and it was like having a new dog at 7 months. Now when I took off the prong I realized that he wasn't as trained as I had thought he was and I felt bad about myself as a trainer, I felt like I took the easy way out and just put on a training collar. If I wanted to I could have it on for the rest of his life and he would be fine, but I prefer to at one point be able to walk him on a flat collar without any pulling or craziness.
> 
> I think it just takes time and maturity (on the dog's part) to wean them off the training collar. And of course a lot of training so that they do concentrate more on you than the world around them. I think collars are different for every dog, some react to the sound of the chain without needing the "pain" portion of the correction, while others don't care about the pain at all (mine). I think you have to see what works for you, and not worry too much about the "humane" and "inhumane" connotation that comes with the collar, your goal should always be to be in control of your dog, and sadly some dogs need a harsher collar.


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## LuvourGSDs

Sue, I am too dependent of a training collar & will admit it. I know, bad me. I have focus from my crew, but still likes to be out front pulling a bit + if we see something exciting, like that cushion. I am on the tiny side & I could be pulled to China & back by some of my crew if given the chance.  I do have control over them, but a bit harder if that rt collar isn't on. Just don't like to set myself up for that. I am pretty strong, but why have to deal with it.  I have no prob with a slip or choke, but you just don't have that control or cushion if things get crazy.  I always fret I will kill the dogs thoat with these though.


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## selzer

That people use them, that people depend on them, that does not get me going. What gets me going is that dogs are seen in training class after class after class with the prong collar and there seems to be very little encouragement for owners to graduate. 

I have seen some bad situations at shows. A newfoundland went after Heidi. An Akita bit its owner. A Rhodesian Ridgeback broke his stay in Novice, went over to a curly coated retriever and shoved his nose up her but to the point of physically standing her with his nose. I think that letting people use training collars at the shows, will have more and more people bringing less and less manageable dogs to shows.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> I have seen some bad situations at shows. A newfoundland went after Heidi. An Akita bit its owner. A Rhodesian Ridgeback broke his stay in Novice, went over to a curly coated retriever and shoved his nose up her but to the point of physically standing her with his nose. I think that letting people use training collars at the shows, will have more and more people bringing less and less manageable dogs to shows.


 I dunno that there is a correlation to be perfectly honest. People are probably not going to keep their dog home just because they can't use the collar of their choice, they'll bring the dog on whatever is allowed and just deal with the pulling. And if you want to be technical, slip leads are training collars too and no show GSD should be allowed at any show because they are actually encouraged to pull like crazy


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## selzer

AgileGSD said:


> I dunno that there is a correlation to be perfectly honest. People are probably not going to keep their dog home just because they can't use the collar of their choice, they'll bring the dog on whatever is allowed and just deal with the pulling. And if you want to be technical, slip leads are training collars too and no show GSD should be allowed at any show because they are actually encouraged to pull like crazy


I am probably one of the first people to say on this thread that conformation dogs are not trained not to pull, they want them to pull out. But the dogs themselves are usually under control. 

Slip leads, choke chains can be used for training, so can flat collars. But if you administer a correction with them in the ring, you will be NQ'd. I have seen it happen. 

I am glad they are not allowed. And I wish people would keep unentered dogs at home too. We spend too much money all around going for our title legs to have some unentered dog lunge at our dog wanting to bite their neck or play or whatever when we (the owners) are already nervous and stressed out getting ready to go into the ring. Even if you are totally prepared, there is a lot to remember and stress about, and it is worse when you are showing more than one dog. 

It is a place for pet owners to go, see lots of dogs, watch dog events, get cool dog stuff, but leave the pets at home. And people who show, bring the dogs that you are showing and leave the others at home or in the RV or at the hotel. It is NOT a good place to bring the up and coming puppy. Just my opinion.


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## wildo

selzer said:


> And I wish people would keep unentered dogs at home too. We spend too much money all around going for our title legs to have some unentered dog lunge at our dog wanting to bite their neck or play or whatever when we (the owners) are already nervous and stressed out getting ready to go into the ring.


Maybe if those dogs were on training collars, you wouldn't have that happen... 



selzer said:


> It is NOT a good place to bring the up and coming puppy. Just my opinion.


I very much disagree on this point. It is a fabulous place to bring an up and coming pup and most definitely something I will do regularly with my _next_ dog. But your issue should be with the owner not paying attention to their dog, not with the dog's behavior itself.


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## selzer

So long as the show does not disallow unentered dogs. But most shows that I have been at DO NOT ALLOW unentered dogs. So leave them at home. 

My issue is with the dog being there, with the people using up crating space so that entered dogs and people do not have a place to park themselves and their dogs while waiting their turn, with blatant rule breaking, and with enforcing the rules only when it suits them to do so, either when the dog is being a nuisance, or if the owners of the pup are not well known to everyone. 

There are a LOT of puppy matches and run throughs and fun matches. Take pets and up and coming dogs there. When you are paying the entry fee for the dog, take the dog to the show.

ETA: training collars or not, dog reactive dogs should not be in a dog show environment. It is too much for them. It is cruel for the dog to take them where they will likely be overwhelmed. And even worse to yank on the prong collar because you took them into a situation that was way beyond their thresholds.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

selzer said:


> I am probably one of the first people to say on this thread that conformation dogs are not trained not to pull, they want them to pull out. But the dogs themselves are usually under control.


My Rottweiler was trained for confirmation showing when I got him and he walked BEAUTIFULLY on a leash. Has a tendency to forge ahead but definitely isn't a puller.


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## middleofnowhere

I've only gotten to page 2 in this --- The banned collars are training collars. If you are in a show, you are showing not training. (OK fursaver & "choke" can also be used for training but...)


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## Achielles UD

selzer said:


> So long as the show does not disallow unentered dogs. But most shows that I have been at DO NOT ALLOW unentered dogs. So leave them at home.
> 
> My issue is with the dog being there, with the people using up crating space so that entered dogs and people do not have a place to park themselves and their dogs while waiting their turn, with blatant rule breaking, and with enforcing the rules only when it suits them to do so, either when the dog is being a nuisance, or if the owners of the pup are not well known to everyone.
> 
> There are a LOT of puppy matches and run throughs and fun matches. Take pets and up and coming dogs there. When you are paying the entry fee for the dog, take the dog to the show.
> 
> ETA: training collars or not, dog reactive dogs should not be in a dog show environment. It is too much for them. It is cruel for the dog to take them where they will likely be overwhelmed. And even worse to yank on the prong collar because you took them into a situation that was way beyond their thresholds.


I was going to snip and clip the quote but ... nah.

I do bring "unentered" dogs to a show (IF I have entered the show with another dog also). The reason is because, while the dog or dogs I have brought with me are ready for the often offered show-n-go's or ring rentals after the show. I live almost 100 miles from the nearest show site. I'm not wealthy and can't do hotel rooms for every show where I can leave an unentered dog and the truck is out of the question (Missouri gets HOT!). I don't bring "out of control" dogs. I don't bring my "pet." I bring the dogs I need to work in the show n go/environment along with the dog or dogs I have entered in the show. I do enter them unentered in the "real" show, though granted it is after the "real" show. I've never had an issue and I've been showing for quite a while 

As for the "using up crating space"... umm, Get there early? I am routinely up at 4am or earlier on a show day to get a parking spot and crate space. I don't spread out crazily and usually only have one or two dogs as well as the one entered, but there seems to be crating room around here at most shows. If you know your area has a problem with crate space, get there early 

As for the dog-reative-dogs not belonging at a show... well again, I have exceptions to this. I have a dog-reactive-dog, Moxie. If I avoided all other dogs throughout her life, didn't take her to show n gos and classes and shows, where would I be with the dog-reactivity? No where. In taking her and training her in these environments (usually without a training collar) it has made her more attentive to me at shows (its what we do mom!) and safe to show. So to ban all dog-reactive dogs is pretty extreme. Some of us do know what we are doing and use the time to train.


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## AgileGSD

wildo said:


> I very much disagree on this point. It is a fabulous place to bring an up and coming pup and most definitely something I will do regularly with my _next_ dog. But your issue should be with the owner not paying attention to their dog, not with the dog's behavior itself.


 I often take my puppies to shows and really see no harm in it. Never had anyone get mad about it, in fact most people at shows like puppies. Go figure  Really though, I couldn't imagine having a puppy and not taking them to a show with me, I tend to want to take my puppies with me to as many places as possible. My oldest dog is dog reactive and goes to dog shows. You'd never know she was dog reactive though because she's well trained and carefully managed. 

Selzer, I'm not sure what shows you've had these bad experiences at but most I have been to have been fairly uneventful in terms of serious aggression. And the aggression I have seen tends to be from entered dogs either dogs not tolerating the exam, boys getting manly with each other, dogs reacting to other dogs intruding on their space, crate fighting and other such things that will happen when you get a bunch of dogs together in a small space (such as ringside). 

The unentered dog rule is almost never enforced at outdoor shows and rarely enforced at indoor shows, especially if the dog is with an exhibitor. And when I say not enforced, I mean I've had show chairs come up to pet my puppy and then say things like "of course this is a 6 month old entered dog but you might get DQ'd for size   ". If one has multiple dogs and no one to look after them all day, they either have to take them all to the show or not go. Besides, there aren't nearly the matches that there used to be and if you want to show your dog, it's ideal to get them used to the show environment. 

And it's not like the unentered dog policy is the only rule that isn't being strictly enforced. Dogs aren't supposed to be "artificially enhanced" either, yet there are vendors upon vendors selling special shampoos, conditioners, sprays, chalks, gels, etc to "enhance" your dog's coat color, texture and volume. Walk around any grooming area of any show and you will get eyeful after eyeful of people violating unenforced dog show rules. Look at the dogs in the breed ring at any show and you will certainly see some dogs who are sporting hair dye, chalk, hairspray, gel, "fixed" ears/tails/eyes, dogs with artificially black noses (from a kit that their owner picked up from a show vendor) and even dogs with wigs. Double handling isn't allow but it's blatant in the GSD ring and subtle in other rings (including obedience). Can't take food into the obedience ring but for sure, there are people who keep a bit in their mouth and spit it to their dog if given a chance (first time I saw that, I was shocked LOL). Judges are supposed to be unbiased but... I could go on and on. 

My point is, there's no reason to get upset about any of it. If AKC's lack of policing their shows bothers you, I suppose you could switch venues. But many other venues aren't strict about unentered dogs either. And really, AKC is the big name with the most events.


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## middleofnowhere

"If one has multiple dogs and no one to look after them all day, they either have to take them all to the show or not go. 

Sorry - this is what boarding kennels are for.


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## LuvourGSDs

Thank You! Ditto to all of this...  Now I don't feel so horrible.


Achielles UD said:


> I was going to snip and clip the quote but ... nah.
> 
> I do bring "unentered" dogs to a show (IF I have entered the show with another dog also). The reason is because, while the dog or dogs I have brought with me are ready for the often offered show-n-go's or ring rentals after the show. I live almost 100 miles from the nearest show site. I'm not wealthy and can't do hotel rooms for every show where I can leave an unentered dog and the truck is out of the question (Missouri gets HOT!). I don't bring "out of control" dogs. I don't bring my "pet." I bring the dogs I need to work in the show n go/environment along with the dog or dogs I have entered in the show. I do enter them unentered in the "real" show, though granted it is after the "real" show. I've never had an issue and I've been showing for quite a while
> 
> As for the "using up crating space"... umm, Get there early? I am routinely up at 4am or earlier on a show day to get a parking spot and crate space. I don't spread out crazily and usually only have one or two dogs as well as the one entered, but there seems to be crating room around here at most shows. If you know your area has a problem with crate space, get there early
> 
> As for the dog-reative-dogs not belonging at a show... well again, I have exceptions to this. I have a dog-reactive-dog, Moxie. If I avoided all other dogs throughout her life, didn't take her to show n gos and classes and shows, where would I be with the dog-reactivity? No where. In taking her and training her in these environments (usually without a training collar) it has made her more attentive to me at shows (its what we do mom!) and safe to show. So to ban all dog-reactive dogs is pretty extreme. Some of us do know what we are doing and use the time to train.


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## selzer

If unentered dogs are not allowed, then competitors who bring unentered dogs are not practicing good sportsmanship.


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## DunRingill

middleofnowhere said:


> "If one has multiple dogs and no one to look after them all day, they either have to take them all to the show or not go.
> 
> Sorry - this is what boarding kennels are for.


uhhhh no. My dogs have never been to a boarding kennel, and I don't see that changing any time soon. 

Shows are expensive enough without tacking on boarding!


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## selzer

I leave mine at home.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> I leave mine at home.


 Your's are in a kennel though right? That isn't an option for everyone either. 



selzer said:


> If unentered dogs are not allowed, then competitors who bring unentered dogs are not practicing good sportsmanship.



Then there's a lot of poor sportsmanship going on at shows 





DunRingill said:


> uhhhh no. My dogs have never been to a boarding kennel, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
> 
> Shows are expensive enough without tacking on boarding!




No doubt!


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> The funny thing about this is that there are *so many people* giving nasty or dirty looks at us with our big GSDs at or in an agility event. Not to mention how many pick up their pathetic little yippie dogs as we walk past so the "big bad GSD" doesn't "get them" as the little bastards snarl, bark, and lunge at our bigger dogs. Yet they still advocate for less controlling collars. Funny...


I've never had that an any AKC event I've attended  And the dogs that have 'attacked' mine have been BC's ! 

I always take my puppies to a trial ASAP for the socialization aspect. I use the gentle leader harness cause it gives me some control and won't get me in trouble. While CLEARLY I need to use common sense to make sure my puppy has a good experience, there's no other environment like an agility trial. And since pretty much all the people know how SOCIALIZATION is key in the upcoming agility years, they are more than willing to go out of their way to help with a new puppy. So I'm in a 'dog friendly' environment with 'dog savvy' people. Plus, generally either the dogs are social to OR the handlers are 100% sure they are not and will make sure they ask you to keep the puppy back.

I've also found that as far as an area packed with dogs, most the owners are more involved with the good health and safety of their dog, diet, nutrition, etc. then I ever will be. So I, using my common sense again, feel ok taking my dog among them.

Here's Glory at 14 weeks (just a regular harness with her so small):


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Selzer- I'm really surprised how opposed you are to bringing puppies or unentered dogs to trials. Everyone I know brings their puppies to trials for socializing and everyone else is more than happy to get some puppy love. No offense, but this uptight view is a big reason I don't do AKC- people get their panties in a wad about the silliest things like this.

And Willy, I too have never experienced anyone giving my GSD dirty looks. If anything, I get a lot of compliments on him- most agility people comment that they like his structure and laugh about how he takes up the whole table when he lays down.


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## wildo

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> And Willy, I too have never experienced anyone giving my GSD dirty looks. If anything, I get a lot of compliments on him- most agility people comment that they like his structure and laugh about how he takes up the whole table when he lays down.


CPE is the only venue I've competed with Pimg, and yes- we get all kinds of compliments on structure, speed, and other related stuff there. It was actually at the USDAA Nationals that I got all kinds of dirty looks. And _multiple_ small dog owners picking up their dogs as we walked by.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

> It was actually at the USDAA Nationals that I got all kinds of dirty looks. And _multiple_ small dog owners picking up their dogs as we walked by.


I'm really surprised! I compete in only USDAA right now and people are generally really cool about everything. Maybe nationals just brings out the best in people 

Edit: I should add that there are obnoxious people in every venue- like this lady who didn't think I could read the numbers on the chain to change the aframe height and yelled at me that the aframe was taller than me- yeah I'm 5'2" it should be. But generally, I find USDAA competitors to be relaxed about silly things.


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## selzer

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Selzer- I'm really surprised how opposed you are to bringing puppies or unentered dogs to trials. Everyone I know brings their puppies to trials for socializing and everyone else is more than happy to get some puppy love. No offense, but this uptight view is a big reason I don't do AKC- people get their panties in a wad about the silliest things like this.
> 
> And Willy, I too have never experienced anyone giving my GSD dirty looks. If anything, I get a lot of compliments on him- most agility people comment that they like his structure and laugh about how he takes up the whole table when he lays down.


Can you people PLEASE leave panties out of the picture! What is up with that statement anyway? 

There is a rule. People who practice good sportsmanship do not break the rules just because everyone else is, or because they are not enforced. That is arrogant. The rule is for everyone else not me. Everyone will love to see my puppy there. 

Well, I will tell you what, it is not just me, there are a lot of people who do NOT want to see unentered dogs at shows. And the best way you can tell they are unentered is if they are clearly under six months old. People do complain about it because it is against the rules, and we chose to follow the rules and left our up and coming puppies at home where they belong. 

If the premium does not disallow unentered dogs, than go to town. I think that if there are 2500 dogs from all over some two states away, the chances that someone might be contagious is pretty high and puppies and old dogs are the most susceptible.

There are plenty of other venues to take puppies. And, no, I do not want to see them at shows. I love puppies. But at a show, I think that more entered dogs, less unentered dogs is the best bet.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

selzer said:


> Can you people PLEASE leave panties out of the picture! What is up with that statement anyway?


 
:rofl: After I wrote that, I remembered reading in another thread your aversion to the word. You AKC people and your panties


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## selzer

Oh no! Well, I could be known for worse things I suppose :crazy:


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