# Energy, Drive, Recharge rate and Impulse Control



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Energy, Drive, Recharge rate and Impulse Control

We often talk about drive in dogs and how it effects training and life with that dog. We also talk about energy levels and again how that effects more so life with the dog than training. I think that a breakdown of definitions and my perspective on how these things effect our lives with our dogs could help some new owners make better informed decisions.

To understand the effect on behavior that any given trait a dog may exhibit, we must first label and define that trait. The following are my definitions and they may or may not overlap with other reference material.

Energy level: The bulk supply of energy a dog has to offer. Consider this a gas tank. The bigger the tank, the longer the dog can travel before recharging. I am going to go against popular opinion here and say that a high energy dog does not equal a dog that requires a lot of exercise. Energy level definitely plays a role in determining what it takes to satisfy a dog, but it is far from the only determining factor.

Drive: The desire a dog has to do something. Internal motivation. Drive is complicated in protection so I will leave that to another thread. For the purpose of this topic, I will consider prey drive, food drive and social drive the most common methods of motivation we use for training our dogs. The more a dog wants to chase things, the more prey drive it has. The more it wants food, the more food drive it has. The more rewarding praise is to a dog, the more social drive it has. Determining how to best motivate a dog is important in training. The higher the value a dog places on a reward, the greater the chances that a behavior will be repeated.

Recharge rate: The amount of rest necessary for a dog to recover and be ready to work or train again. Some dogs recharge very quickly, and some take a long time. A quick recharge rate means that you can train more frequently throughout the day. It may also mean that you need to provide multiple exercise sessions throughout the day to keep a dog satisfied.

Impulse control: The ability of the dog to resist the urge to do something. This is broad ranging and effects many parts of life with a dog. It comes easier to some dogs than others. Lower drive dogs have an easier time controlling their urges, while higher drive dogs may struggle with the ability. The dogs that are good at moving, jumping, chasing, biting, have a harder time dealing with restrictions and staying still.



The difficult part of the equation is how all these things fit together to make up the personality of the dog. A high energy dog with low drive, low recharge rate and good impulse control is an easy dog to live with but will be much harder to train to do complex tasks with a handler. They can go swim all day at the lake and keep up on the hiking trails, but the motivation isn’t there to do things that don’t come easy to the dog. A low energy dog with low drive, low recharge rate and good impulse control is what most people want in a pet. It’s happy to hang out on the sofa and get ear scratches while you watch Netflix after work.

High food drive enables the use of training treats as rewards. This is handy for training positions using lures and markers. It also increases the likelihood of counter surfing, trash diving, begging and potentially resource guarding.

High social drive enables the use of social pressure to reward or punish behaviors. A pat on the chest for a good recall to heel. A timeout in a crate after poor house manners. Fetch to hand is a good indicator of high social drive in puppies.

Where things become more challenging, and rewarding, are when a dog has high prey drive. This usually comes with naturally low impulse control in relation to drive. This results in a dog that really wants to chase and bite. If it moves, it’s game on! This enables us to have a very high value reward for OB and house manners type behaviors. It also enables the act of biting a decoy to be very self-rewarding. Prey drive is a big component in flirt pole, fetch, 2 ball, and most dog sports. It also greatly increases the chances of some bad behaviors being very self-rewarding, such as chasing animals, cars, bikes, kids, everything that moves. This desire to chase can cause frustration when the dog is restrained. The higher the drive or desire to chase, the higher the level of frustration. This can result in many unwanted behaviors such as barking, lunging, nipping, redirected biting, even a dog attacking a family member or another pet in proximity to the frustrated dog.



What it all comes down to is how you want to live with the dog.

A high energy dog with lots of drive, a quick recharge rate and low impulse control can be a lot of fun for an experienced trainer with time on their hands. They can get in a lot of reps in a day and they don’t have to worry about getting boring while refining behaviors. They can learn complex behaviors because the drive to get to the reward outweighs the work. This dog is taught impulse control through obedience and it is managed until it has the maturity and control necessary to warrant freedom to make good choices. This same dog will figure out ways to entertain itself if it gets bored. Very often these dogs end up in shelters or rehomed because of bad behaviors.

There is a myriad of combinations of drive, energy, recharge rate and impulse control. There are also wildly different opinions on what constitutes high, medium and low. Perspective is the most important part of any objective conversation. The best education for new owners is experience. This can happen by spending time observing dogs and owners at a local club, by attending training classes before you have a dog, by working with a trainer as they see clients, or by diving in headfirst and getting a dog. I highly recommend getting as much hands-on experience as possible with as many dogs as possible before committing to 12+ years of ownership and responsibility.



Please feel free to offer information that can be added. I will come back and edit this as we see fit to help others along the way. This is just a starting point and I welcome others to add perspective and information to this document.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how biddability plays into all this. The actual definition is not exactly the way I think of it (a desire/willingness to please)

Definition, Biddable: meekly ready to accept and follow instructions.
"a biddable, sweet-natured child"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

WNGD said:


> I'd like to hear your thoughts on how biddability plays into all this. The actual definition is not exactly the way I think of it (a desire/willingness to please)
> 
> Definition, Biddable: meekly ready to accept and follow instructions.
> "a biddable, sweet-natured child"


remove “meek” and i think that’s accurate.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think another thing to consider is how training affects these traits. Food drive for instance can be affected by how much, how often, and what it is your dog is feed.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

This is very interesting, David!



> A high energy dog with lots of drive, a quick recharge rate and low impulse control can be a lot of fun for an experienced trainer with time on their hands. They can get in a lot of reps in a day and they don’t have to worry about getting boring while refining behaviors. They can learn complex behaviors because the drive to get to the reward outweighs the work. This dog is taught impulse control through obedience and it is managed until it has the maturity and control necessary to warrant freedom to make good choices. This same dog will figure out ways to entertain itself if it gets bored. Very often these dogs end up in shelters or rehomed because of bad behaviors.


This is my dog. He needs management. LOVES to chase anything-if it moves he’s on it, LOVES the flirt pole, LOVES to bite. Low impulse control. Incredible focus. Quick recharge rate. I can play with him hard for an hour even in the Florida heat. I have to make stop playing so he doesn’t get heat stroke. He’ll come back inside and collapse. However, he’s ready to go for another round seconds later. He craves engagement me. I took him to a pool party last weekend (with people who isolated due to Covid) and he didn’t sit still for six hours. He loved when people threw his toy in the pool. He‘d circle the pool until his toy came to the edge and he could fish it out. He’s not a dog that sits in the corner. He probably laid down for a 1/2 hour total. He wanted to be where the action was. He will work for food, play, or affection. Although he prefers play. 

Impulse control is what I struggle with. He’s got low thresholds and leaks in drive. He’s got a solid place command so I use that for a lot of things. As he’s gotten older, he’s gotten better. He got a solid retrieve now. He would always chase the ball but then drop it and run to the flirt pole...lol. Now he loves two ball and loves to tug as a reward so I work obedience into that. Obedience needs to be reinforced constantly because he knows how to take advantage. He’s like a bull in a China shop. I think Sabis mom referred to it as violently affectionate. Thank God he‘s handler sensitive and biddable or I’d be in a world of hurt. lol


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

This is a great post, thanks, David! Very interesting and good to know especially if I consider getting another GSD (after Willow). 

But this stuck out:


David Winners said:


> A high energy dog with low drive, low recharge rate and good impulse control is an easy dog to live with but will be much harder to train to do complex tasks with a handler. They can go swim all day at the lake and keep up on the hiking trails, but the motivation isn’t there to do things that don’t come easy to the dog.


This sounds EXACTLY like Willow. She's so easy, in many respects, but man, try to teach her something complex and she gets almost discouraged and shuts down. Not interested. Even with what I would consider high food drive. 

Anyway, thanks for the well-thought-out, informative post!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I LOVE a biddable dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So here is what you don't want. High energy, slow recharge, high prey drive, low food drive, low social drive and no impulse control! Lol.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

High energy, high drive, high prey drive, med threshold, extreme ball (toy drive) extreme food drive when the ball is not around, med social drive, high impulse is how I describe Ozzy.
Now with out boundaries, environmental exposure with lots of training since a pup, developing a strong bond strong engagement the above would not be the same if he was raised by a newbie. 
All that David said in the beginning can be different with each dog, why??? Inexperienced owners, genetics etc.
I’ve seen new handlers excel with their dog and others just can’t bring out the potential in a dog therefore the dog is labeled low drive, low food drive etc. 
I will always say it’s never the dog’s fault it’s the handlers/owners or genetics.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I'd like to hear your thoughts on how biddability plays into all this. The actual definition is not exactly the way I think of it (a desire/willingness to please)
> 
> Definition, Biddable: meekly ready to accept and follow instructions.
> "a biddable, sweet-natured child"


It's hard to really know. How much is genetic biddability, how much is being a better trainer than I was yesterday or having a dog that suits me better than the last. I know that Valor is easy, fun, and is totally committed to life with me.

I know that when it clicks, it's easy. Once I get that connection with a dog, everything becomes fun, which is why I work on relationship from day one. I tend to believe that some dogs are more prone to this trust and commitment to their handler. I also know that I have struggled to connect with some dogs that clicked with another trainer immediately.

My initial reason I wanted a dog from Carmen was to see what genetic obedience looked like. At 9 months, Valor should be in the middle of middle finger mode, but he isn't. I believe it is genetic, but how do you know?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

David Winners said:


> It's hard to really know. How much is genetic biddability, how much is being a better trainer than I was yesterday or having a dog that suits me better than the last. I know that Valor is easy, fun, and is totally committed to life with me.
> 
> I know that when it clicks, it's easy. Once I get that connection with a dog, everything becomes fun, which is why I work on relationship from day one. I tend to believe that some dogs are more prone to this trust and commitment to their handler. I also know that I have struggled to connect with some dogs that clicked with another trainer immediately.
> 
> My initial reason I wanted a dog from Carmen was to see what genetic obedience looked like. At 9 months, Valor should be in the middle of middle finger mode, but he isn't. I believe it is genetic, but how do you know?


Exactly, how do you know if with a different handler he would be giving the finger or be just how he is with you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Exactly, how do you know if with a different handler he would be giving the finger or be just how he is with you.


Different experienced handler. I've snatched him up a few times. He shoulder checked me in the head and knocked me on my face in the snow. He's not a novice type dog, and he would pose definite challenges in an inexperienced home.

But I get the intent of your post and I agree.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

David Winners said:


> Different experienced handler. I've snatched him up a few times. He shoulder checked me in the head and knocked me on my face in the snow. He's not a novice type dog, and he would pose definite challenges in an inexperienced home.
> 
> But I get the intent of your post and I agree.


Same with my boy. He would be a total ass with a novice. Heck he can be an ass with me hence his medium threshold.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

So figuring out our 13 week old by these terms. Definitely food driven, high social drive, low prey drive. Recharge rate, she runs hard, plays hard and sleeps hard. Wait was one of the first commands she learned, although she'll hold it, she's usually whining, crying to go. One big difference from the other two she'll go off by herself to sleep in a different room than us. If we crate her for bed, no problems, if we crate her and don't go to bed you would think we're killing her by her shrieks. That doesn't make sense to me.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

we need a @car2ner video... her dogs crack me up. the male is always intensely focused on something (leaves, ball, etc) while the female runs circles. every time i think... that’s energy! that’s drive! lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> we need a @car2ner video... her dogs crack me up. the male is always intensely focused on something (leaves, ball, etc) while the female runs circles. every time i think... that’s energy! that’s drive! lol


The back up videos! It's plain as day if you watch them both


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The big take away is that dogs are very different, and if you have a picture in your head of what a GSD is, it's wrong in a lot of cases. The spectrum of personalities is broad. 

Go meet dogs!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

David, can you talk about impulse control and oppositional reflex. I have used that reflex several times to shore up impulse control and I think it is a very useful and easy method if done properly. 

I may be all wet but it worked beautifully on my boy for foolproofing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Heartandsoul said:


> David, can you talk about impulse control and oppositional reflex. I have used that reflex several times to shore up impulse control and I think it is a very useful and easy method if done properly.
> 
> I may be all wet but it worked beautifully on my boy for foolproofing.


I don't like the term opposition reflex, as it is not a reflex and is often used to describe a wide array of behaviors.

Can you describe the methods you used?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

You folks crack me up, but yeah, both of my dogs are the same and so very different. I'd also like to know more about "opposition reflex". Details are needed. Especially when we communicate in text.

I got to thinking about the "recharge rate". In the winter it is much shorter than in the summer. Just when I get comfy playing games my dogs come poking their nose under my elbow. "ready for more already?". In the summer with higher humidity it takes much longer for my dogs to be ready for more.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I don't like the term opposition reflex, as it is not a reflex and is often used to describe a wide array of behaviors.
> 
> Can you describe the methods you used?


Sure, I used light leash pressure at first (pulling) when I told him to stay with the car door open. He already knew well not to get out of the car without my command but sometimes he would forget or blow off what he knew (especially if another family member called him) so I used the pulling leash pressure (activated his opposition) to shore up not to get out until I say so. I increased that pressure as he got more reliable but not so much that it caused much stress. It was just a feel of leash in hand when enough was enough. Best I can explain it.

I also used the leash pressure holding him back to help him stick and stay on odor source or if I wanted to amp him up a bit during an exercise (he was med to low medium drive 80%of the time).

I know it helped him a lot to get rock solid without using traditional corrections. My theory was that the opposition just cemented it in his brain ie muscle memory.

But I’m not a trainer thus asking for your input instead of just spewing this out here.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David Winners said:


> It's hard to really know. How much is genetic biddability, how much is being a better trainer than I was yesterday or having a dog that suits me better than the last. I know that Valor is easy, fun, and is totally committed to life with me.


Interesting. Could he suit you better because he has genetic biddability? Yes, you‘re a better trainer than you were yesterday, but isn’t training him fun because of the biddability?

I believe my dog has genetic biddability. Why? Because I’m not a good trainer and he still has it...lol. He’s a blast to train because of his natural desire to please and engage with me. If he didn’t have that, I wouldn’t be having as much fun with him. 

He lives to please me and it’s been there from day one. I think he’d be a harder dog to live with if he didn’t have it due to his energy and prey drive. I finally got him to stop trying to chase birds, cats, and bicycles on leash. Instead of lunging, he now sits, stares, and whines. 😂


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Heartandsoul old method for proofing stay. Tried and true, I still use it. Light leash pressure gradually increasing. Basically trying to pull the dog out of a stay.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> @Heartandsoul old method for proofing stay. Tried and true, I still use it. Light leash pressure gradually increasing. Basically trying to pull the dog out of a stay.


Yes, that’s it. Thanks. It did help him a lot. And I think that it could help any regardless of drive. It may though shut down a very sensative dog but I’m not sure about that.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> It's hard to really know. How much is genetic biddability, how much is being a better trainer than I was yesterday or having a dog that suits me better than the last. I know that Valor is easy, fun, and is totally committed to life with me.
> 
> I know that when it clicks, it's easy. Once I get that connection with a dog, everything becomes fun, which is why I work on relationship from day one. I tend to believe that some dogs are more prone to this trust and commitment to their handler. I also know that I have struggled to connect with some dogs that clicked with another trainer immediately.
> 
> My initial reason I wanted a dog from Carmen was to see what genetic obedience looked like. At 9 months, Valor should be in the middle of middle finger mode, but he isn't. I believe it is genetic, but how do you know?


My white dog had his teenager moments but in general I'd describe him as the most biddable dog I've ever met.

Then there's the fact that I consider both my boys to just be do-gooders. I am not sure if that's biddability or something else. For instance, I put down a bowl of food for my lab but in a sleep deprived haze I had put down my old female GSD's bowl for him. It was loaded with all sorts of medicines he shouldn't have. I said "Oh no! Don't eat that!" And he immediately backed up from the bowl and didn't touch it. I've never taught him to wait at a food bowl..if I put it down its his and he has a typical lab appetite. But just hearing me say oh no, he pulled right away from that food and wouldn't touch it. I didn't even have the sense to say "leave it" or something he actually knows, I said don't eat that which is not something I've ever taught him.

I've left my white dog in alone in the house with a fresh pizza on the oven. He loves pizza crust but he wouldn't dream of stealing it.

When my old dog was on steroids she started doing bad things she'd never done before. She was always loose in the house. I came home and found she had raided my stuff in the mud room, found a bait bag, pulled it down, chewed into it and ate all the treats. She was laying there totally pleased with herself in a pile of stuff she'd pilfered. 

My boy was nowhere to be found. I finally found him, he had gone down and put himself away in his basement kennel because he was so upset that SHE was being "bad". And he was gone before I ever came in the door, and I wasn't even mad. I thought it was funny. 12 y ears old and she finally stole something, it was the first time in her life.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I lost track of this thread lol. I'll get some responses posted later.

Sorry!!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I know that when it clicks, it's easy. Once I get that connection with a dog, everything becomes fun, which is why I work on relationship from day one. I tend to believe that some dogs are more prone to this trust and commitment to their handler. I also know that I have struggled to connect with some dogs that clicked with another trainer immediately.


This is why I keep saying I don't train pups. It isn't true, but it isn't my focus. From day one we are building, shaping, learning. By the time we get to the focus on training stage I know what will motivate and already have all the building blocks in place to work with the particular combination of that dog.
Off topic but I am fairly convinced that high focus on rigid training with young pups actually creates a worse butthead/braindump phase.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> This is why I keep saying I don't train pups. It isn't true, but it isn't my focus. From day one we are building, shaping, learning. By the time we get to the focus on training stage I know what will motivate and already have all the building blocks in place to work with the particular combination of that dog.
> Off topic but I am fairly convinced that high focus on rigid training with young pups actually creates a worse butthead/braindump phase.


I play with puppies and use what they offer to build habits I like or need. I don't really do feeding or training schedules or set goals or anything like that. If it isn't mostly fun for both of us, I'm doing it wrong.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Heartandsoul said:


> Sure, I used light leash pressure at first (pulling) when I told him to stay with the car door open. He already knew well not to get out of the car without my command but sometimes he would forget or blow off what he knew (especially if another family member called him) so I used the pulling leash pressure (activated his opposition) to shore up not to get out until I say so. I increased that pressure as he got more reliable but not so much that it caused much stress. It was just a feel of leash in hand when enough was enough. Best I can explain it.
> 
> I also used the leash pressure holding him back to help him stick and stay on odor source or if I wanted to amp him up a bit during an exercise (he was med to low medium drive 80%of the time).
> 
> ...


Yup. You have a good understanding here. All good techniques applied correctly.

And they would fall into the category often labeled as opposition reflex.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> Interesting. Could he suit you better because he has genetic biddability? Yes, you‘re a better trainer than you were yesterday, but isn’t training him fun because of the biddability?
> 
> I believe my dog has genetic biddability. Why? Because I’m not a good trainer and he still has it...lol. He’s a blast to train because of his natural desire to please and engage with me. If he didn’t have that, I wouldn’t be having as much fun with him.
> 
> He lives to please me and it’s been there from day one. I think he’d be a harder dog to live with if he didn’t have it due to his energy and prey drive. I finally got him to stop trying to chase birds, cats, and bicycles on leash. Instead of lunging, he now sits, stares, and whines. 😂


I guess it's hard to really quantify why a dog ends up the way it does. 

As Valor matures, I see differences in him compared to other dogs his age. He is 17 months now and still very handler oriented and he is listening very well to my wife. He's a little nose deaf and starting to mark, but other than that he is very attentive and willing to please.

He suits me and I suit him and I haven't had to work at getting his attention.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

This is a good thread -- @David Winners you should write a book on this topic-- drives, energy, thresholds, impulse control etc....in relation to training/methods and relationship building! I would buy a copy or two...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> The difficult part of the equation is how all these things fit together to make up the personality of the dog. A high energy dog with low drive, low recharge rate and good impulse control is an easy dog to live with but will be much harder to train to do complex tasks with a handler. They can go swim all day at the lake and keep up on the hiking trails, but the motivation isn’t there to do things that don’t come easy to the dog. A low energy dog with low drive, low recharge rate and good impulse control is what most people want in a pet. It’s happy to hang out on the sofa and get ear scratches while you watch Netflix after work.


I love this. We should tell all new owners that this is what they need. 
By your definitions Sabi would have been high energy, high recharge rate, low drive -except social-and good impulse control. I think. Maybe low energy. She could work all day but really didn't care what that work looked like. Laying in the truck or working buildings was all the same. Her only drive seemed to be to stay with me. Except if I had her on a track.
I always said she was the perfect pet, and would have been for anyone.
But how does work ethic play into all of this?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Nose Deaf.I've never heard that term,but I know exactly what you mean. Something that many owners struggle with.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Nose Deaf.I've never heard that term,but I know exactly what you mean. Something that many owners struggle with.


It's why Punk does not run loose! Over-the-freaking-top hunt drive! Nose on=ears off!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I love this. We should tell all new owners that this is what they need.
> By your definitions Sabi would have been high energy, high recharge rate, low drive -except social-and good impulse control. I think. Maybe low energy. She could work all day but really didn't care what that work looked like. Laying in the truck or working buildings was all the same. Her only drive seemed to be to stay with me. Except if I had her on a track.
> I always said she was the perfect pet, and would have been for anyone.
> But how does work ethic play into all of this?


I guess that depends on your definition of work ethic. What that means to me, in human terms, is motivation to accomplish a task that is directly connected to the completion of that task, or rather connected to the outcome of the completion of that task.

In dog terms, we would like to think that the dog is motivated to work with you for no other reason than accomplishing the task as a team. It's hard to drill down to this once you start rewarding the dog in any manner other than just existing with the dog. Once you use any type of reward, you can't really know if the dog is working towards that reward or working with you simply for the sake of the work.

Also, is that task inherently rewarding for the dog and you just happen to be along for the ride?

I think any supposition into the motivation of the dog would be convoluted by our desire to be important to the dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> This is a good thread -- @David Winners you should write a book on this topic-- drives, energy, thresholds, impulse control etc....in relation to training/methods and relationship building! I would buy a copy or two...


Eh... That's a lot of work lol.

I actually plan on writing (finishing) a couple books once we start full time camping.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I don't like the term opposition reflex, as it is not a reflex and is often used to describe a wide array of behaviors.
> 
> Can you describe the methods you used?


Do you not think this term is applicable to a dog that pulls back hard on a tug and thrashes to win, dog that pulls hard into a collar and harness?

"A high energy dog with lots of drive, a quick recharge rate and low impulse control can be a lot of fun for an experienced trainer with time on their hands. They can get in a lot of reps in a day and they don’t have to worry about getting boring while refining behaviors. They can learn complex behaviors because the drive to get to the reward outweighs the work. This dog is taught impulse control through obedience and it is managed until it has the maturity and control necessary to warrant freedom to make good choices." 

Yes and difficult, tiring for a new owner/handler. Thank god for adulthood.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

ausdland said:


> Do you not think this term is applicable to a dog that pulls back hard on a tug and thrashes to win, dog that pulls hard into a collar and harness?


No I do not, at least not in the scientific meaning of opposition reflex. I guess the very initial stages of tug could possibly be attributed to OR, but after the dog has conscious motivation to possess the tug or gets enjoyment from tugging, OR is no longer a factor, other than keeping the dog on its feet.

A dog pulling on a harness or collar is usually trying to get somewhere.

This is opposition reflex.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think a lot of trainers use the term in a useful way, though I believe it to be scientifically incorrect, the "opposition reflex" method of teaching a push grip, staying on a hide, holding a position, staying at a doorway... All these methods work and have merit in training. I just think the term is used incorrectly as the motivation for the behavior is not a reflex but rather the willingness to receive a reward or avoid punishment that drives the behavior.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I've enjoyed watching this thread, and have been content to let others carry on the conversation, but at the end of the day, I really don't agree with the initial "traits" list.

*"Energy, Drive, Recharge rate and Impulse Control"*

The only thing fixed by genetics here(though even that is pretty malleable early on!l) is drive.

Energy, Recharge rate, and impulse control, are all conditioned or environmental or learned.

I would also suggest that any one of these can present a "completely' different picture of a dog at any given snapshot in time.

So how exactly is that "helpful" to an average dog owner? Or anybody trying to understand dog behavior?

I like to stay away from labels, for people and for dogs and other animals. There is too much blaming of genetics, when really poor handling is the issue.

Sorry, all sycophantic posts have been wearing on me...


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> The only thing fixed by genetics here(though even that is pretty malleable early on!l) is drive.
> 
> Energy, Recharge rate, and impulse control, are all conditioned or environmental or learned.


I strongly disagree with this, we had two great examples of genetically different dogs right here at home. They varied greatly in these exact areas(among many others) out of the box(genetically) and require/d different approaches and methods of training to reach a satisfactory level of obedience and control etc.. And afterwards still an obvious difference between them. I would say these traits like many others have a strong genetic predisposition but can be 'shaped' to an extent depending on the dog, competence of trainer, etc... 



tim_s_adams said:


> I would also suggest that any one of these can present a "completely' different picture of a dog at any given snapshot in time.


I do strongly agree with this however


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

REEHGE said:


> I strongly disagree with this, we had two great examples of genetically different dogs right here at home. They varied greatly in these exact areas(among many others) out of the box(genetically) and require/d different approaches and methods of training to reach a satisfactory level of obedience and control.


You see these kinds of differences between littermates, so how can it be genetic? Or a better way to phrase it might be, if energy level, recharge rate, and impulse control are genetic, then environment or training would have little or no effect in the dog's behavior, right?

But energy and recharge rate are clearly effected by temperature and humidity. Another example, any given dog's energy level and recharge rate is greatly altered by weight. Take a healthy dog with high energy and recharge rate, and add 10 lbs to the dog, energy level and recharge rate drops dramatically.

Epigenetics refers to your body's control and expression of genes. It explains how behavior and environment can quite literally turn on or off a given gene.

From the CDC:

"Gene expression refers to how often or when proteins are created from the instructions within your genes. While genetic changes can alter which protein is made, epigenetic changes affect gene expression to turn genes “on” and “off.” Since your environment and behaviors, such as diet and exercise, can result in epigenetic changes, it is easy to see the connection between your genes and your behaviors and environment."

Interesting stuff! But again, how is this helpful to a dog owner? I suppose labeling a dog's behavior/traits in some defined way at least provides a basis or framework for discussion, which I believe was David's intention. 

But, IMHO, all too often people blame behaviors on genetics, when in reality it's often handler error or influence! Again, just MHO...


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> You see these kinds of differences between littermates, so how can it be genetic? Or a better way to phrase it might be, if energy level, recharge rate, and impulse control are genetic, then environment or training would have little or no effect in the dog's behavior, right?


I believe/understand that genetics set the baseline for these behaviors/tendencies although environment and training etc.. clearly affect them in many aspects. Broadening the spectrum a tad but simply the way I see it is if genetics had nothing to do with these things then my Sister should be able to get a young knpv mal puppy and expect it to live a lazy life around the yard just like the last Saint Bernard they had since it will be in the same environment and raised the same way. Also since littermates are not genetic clones of each other it makes perfect sense to me that one pup received more/less copies of those genes related to the specific behavior trait just as visible external features differ genetically among littermates.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> But energy and recharge rate are clearly effected by temperature and humidity. Another example, any given dog's energy level and recharge rate is greatly altered by weight. Take a healthy dog with high energy and recharge rate, and add 10 lbs to the dog, energy level and recharge rate drops dramatically.


Tim, you are correct that environment and training have an impact but the baseline is genetic. At 10 years old Sabi had a significantly faster recharge time then Shadow did at 10 months. They also had markedly different energy levels start to finish. 
Sabi had lower energy at 10 months then Shadow did at 10 years.
Bud and Lex were very closely related, Lex being a litter mate of Buds dam, and while their personalities were very different energy and recharge rate were shockingly similar.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I both agree and disagree with both of you (big surprise huh!). Of course genetics underpins everything a dog is and does. Breeds of dogs have certain traits, generally speaking. No doubt about that!

What I disagree with vehemently is that whenever the nature/nurture issue is brought up, it's pretty much universally accepted that nature rules. Epigenetics shows scientifically that it's not quite that simple!

Also, once you chalk up a "behavior" to genetics (and that's you in the general sense, not either of "you" the two most recent posters!), it's pretty much an unchangeable reality and you just have to "manage" that, or work around it, for the rest of the dog's life...and in most cases, IMHO, that is a tragic and unfortunate mistake in judgement which the dog pays for!

For me, it's when in doubt, work on relationship first, engagement second, and continue training! 

Anyway, @REEHGE, let us know how it goes if your sister ever gets that mal puppy


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

hanshund said:


> You shot yourself. now lets see if you can figure out where hehehe


 Enlighten me. I'm all ears my friend!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Watch this then tell me what you think!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

To me, this video shows how Tom clearly shows how misinterpreted genetics can be!

Please, please, please consider that when dealing with your own dog! It as much the handling as it is the dog's genetics!!!

And in the end, don't accept and manage, instead change your dog's behavior to work with your particular situation! The only reason that that isn't doable is you... Change that, be that person that helps your dog overcome these obstacles!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> And in the end, don't accept and manage, instead change your dog's behavior to work with your particular situation! The only reason that that isn't doable is you... Change that, be that person that helps your dog overcome these obstacles!


Nope, nope, nope. You cannot change what a dog is, and failing to accept that is setting both parties up to be miserable. 
Sabi was a brilliant PPD/patrol dog, she would have sucked as a sport dog. 

Sabi was low drive and low energy, she just really loved me. A skilled trainer could have built up her drive to a point but doubtful enough to make her look good in a trial. While she could work all day she really was fine hanging around, mooching food. I doubt she would have scored well. 

Lex was an unbelievable obedience dog, who really failed miserably as a protection dog.

Now, a brilliant trainer and a talented handler made Lex LOOK like a protection dog but she was uncomfortable and ill suited. She loved people, she did not enjoy fighting them, she disliked having to get aggressive even in play and she eventually became so stressed that she started mutilating herself.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> To me, this video shows how Tom clearly shows how misinterpreted genetics can be!
> 
> Please, please, please consider that when dealing with your own dog! It as much the handling as it is the dog's genetics!!!
> 
> And in the end, don't accept and manage, instead change your dog's behavior to work with your particular situation! The only reason that that isn't doable is you... Change that, be that person that helps your dog overcome these obstacles!


I like Tom's videos and think he is pretty sharp with understanding dog behavior but I don't see anything in this video that changes my understanding. I agree people can misinterpret the genetics and motivations for behaviors and the video just shows me Tom reading and understanding a dog's genetic baseline and helping an owner/handler properly handle the dog as such.

I think it is crucial to accept and manage, but then ideally adapt accordingly and bring the best you can from the dog. I agree it may be, or it at least sounds unfortunate for someone to simply 'accept and manage' but I think it just depends on mindset and what is done from that point of understanding forward that makes it good/bad.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Maybe I just get to see this "acceptance" too often to be objective. Once the "genetic" label comes out, it seems universally that acceptance and management of the poor dog is all that can be done. That's why I get so invested. I'm not suggesting that all dogs can be all things, nor that anyone should try to force that with training or finesse. 

Just hoping that more people see and realize that many many many "behaviors" that folks will say are "genetic" are not really. 

Genetics are complicated and not even close to being well understood by leading genetics researchers. Epigenetics shows how nutrition, exercise, and environment can actually alter genetic expression. So even truly genetic issues can be altered via these mechanisms.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

I've enjoyed this thread since it was reopened (I wasn't around at the start) and there are some quite interesting views, something I always enjoy on this Forum.

I'm no academic but reading the most recent posts referring to 'genetics' reminded me of a science research paper I read a long time ago when this subject came up somewhere else. It's lengthy but if you're that interested it details what was done, with conclusions, but even those are not as black and white as some might like. It's dated but the subject matter is focused on genetics and dog behaviour nonetheless. I found it interesting to see that right at the start the experiments were done using exactly the same environments for each of the dog 'subjects'. During the study some environments were changed and those results are there to see. These types of papers always leaves room for debate so don't shoot the messenger . The document is at the foot of this post. It wouldn't work as a link.

If you really don't fancy this as bedtime reading the report concludes by saying (amongst other things) that _"behaviour is never inherited as such, but is developed under the combined influences of various organised systems, both genetic and environmental." _They say a lot more, but suffice to say there's no definitive answer. I appreciate others here have said something similar.

Neither antagonist nor psychophant, my belief is that desired behaviour and teaching can be achieved with effort, unless there's an underlying medical condition, which might then make it an illness or disability and not a behaviour issue. However, by correcting behaviours and training our dogs we're not trying to _change_ _what they are_, simply _teach_ them. Would I train my dog to be something he's clearly not cut out to be? Of course not. Why would I. Round holes & square pegs etc.

I want my boy Monty to keep his cheeky character and funny ways. He's still a baby and he challenges me many times a day. I want him to keep me on my toes and challenge my skills and make me a better dog handler. I alone am responsible for him in all situations, today, tomorrow, and for the rest of his life. He is totally dependant on me. I took ownership of him. I will do whatever is necessary to give him / us the best life possible. If he has any idiosyncrasies then fine - so have I, so I hope he'll tolerate me too. I'm sure those that know me will say he has more to put up with me than I do with him.

The document is attached if you want to read. (It is safe - a simple pdf.)


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Spooky timing Tim... we must have hit the SEND button at the same time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I completely disagree that there is no genetic component to the amount of energy a dog has, how quickly it can recover and how that dog responds to stimulus that it finds interesting. I have trained far too many dogs in the same system to believe otherwise.

I completely agree that we can alter these things to some extent through "training" or "management" or whatever you want to call behavior modification. We either manage the behavior by training with that the dog gives us genetically or by physically constraining the dog in some manner. 

A blanket statement that anything other than drive has no genetic component is patently false.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Barrie said:


> "behaviour is never inherited as such, but is developed under the combined influences of various organised systems, both genetic and environmental."


Behavior is a product of environment, training and handling. The drives behind the behaviors are genetic.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Behavior is a product of environment, training and handling. The drives behind the behaviors are genetic.


That's a better way of putting it! (My quote is from the research paper.)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Did you mentioned high drive and medium energy? I reread the post and missed that. Mine has high prey drive, can go from 0 to 100 in seconds, but also likes couch time a lot. He doesn’t need a lot of exercise but doesn’t mind it either.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Did you mentioned high drive and medium energy? I reread the post and missed that. Mine has high prey drive, can go from 0 to 100 in seconds, but also likes couch time a lot. He doesn’t need a lot of exercise but doesn’t mind it either.


I didn't break down every combination


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

David Winners said:


> A blanket statement that anything other than drive has no genetic component is patently false.


I'm happy to see you weigh back in David! I have been known to overstate a case now and then, for sure! But even I didn't go so far as to suggest those "traits" had "no genetic component! 

What I did say was drive is fixed genetically. A dog either has it or they don't, and no amount of conditioning or training can impart drive to a dog. It can be enhanced somewhat via conditioning, but they pretty much come fully loaded 

A dog's drives dictate how difficult or easy it will be to learn impulse control, but impulse control itself is not fixed genetically IMHO. It's a learned behavior. No puppy exhibits impulse control out of the box.

And again, the sole purpose of bringing this up at all is to hopefully convince someone out there to continue to train, or to find a good trainer to help them train, their out of control dog, rather than dropping them at a shelter or relegating them to life in the backyard. 

Cheers!


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Maybe getting out into the weeds but I remember seeing somewhere Carmen mentioning genetically hyperactive dogs with low drive so how would/could this tie into these traits or others? Low drive, high energy with low impulse impulse control? Learned behavior? Where does the high energy go if there is not a specific drive to channel it into?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> No puppy exhibits impulse control out of the box


Opinions vary.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

This is Valor's DDR side. Very typical. Very genetic. I really like him, reminds me of my previous dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm happy to see you weigh back in David! I have been known to overstate a case now and then, for sure! But even I didn't go so far as to suggest those "traits" had "no genetic component!
> 
> What I did say was drive is fixed genetically. A dog either has it or they don't, and no amount of conditioning or training can impart drive to a dog. It can be enhanced somewhat via conditioning, but they pretty much come fully loaded
> 
> ...


I totally appreciate your goals here, and I believe the same. Most of my client dogs are a piece of cake to get calmed down and behaving nicely. It's just a matter of doing the work.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> This is Valor's DDR side. Very typical. Very genetic. I really like him, reminds me of my previous dog.


I think it's cool that he will watch totally calm, and then go 100% if you tell him it's ok.

He tried to play with a deer today. We jumped a couple close up. We were down wind, around a corner with heavy undergrowth and coming up a grassy hill. They didn't sense him until he rounded the corner 10 feet away. I said OK.

They went for a safe spot, which was perpendicular to Valor so he had a good jump on them. He went in bouncing like a puppy and shoulder checked one. He came right back when they didn't want to play.

It's really fun to me to still be learning about dogs every day. What will I learn tomorrow?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

REEHGE said:


> Maybe getting out into the weeds but I remember seeing somewhere Carmen mentioning genetically hyperactive dogs with low drive so how would/could this tie into these traits or others? Low drive, high energy with low impulse impulse control? Learned behavior? Where does the high energy go if there is not a specific drive to channel it into?


David can and I'm sure will correct me but this is sort of how I understand it. Drive tells a dog what it would like to do, and to what degree. Impulse control tells a dog if it should do those things. Energy dictates how much effort will be put into it. Recharge rate dictates how often.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Well said


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Well said


But all of that is genetic, right? I mean if a dog has no impulse control you can teach it not to chase, but that isn't the same as impulse control. If a dog has no prey drive you can teach it to run after something but it still has no prey drive.
I mean Shadow knows I won't let her chase a cat, but if that cat runs often enough she's eventually going to flip me off and go for it. So the genetics are trained for and managed but not changed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> Maybe getting out into the weeds but I remember seeing somewhere Carmen mentioning genetically hyperactive dogs with low drive so how would/could this tie into these traits or others? Low drive, high energy with low impulse impulse control? Learned behavior? Where does the high energy go if there is not a specific drive to channel it into?


Where does it go? Probably into the furniture. 

A hyperactive dog with no focus is what a labradoodle looks like. The just desperately want to do something and really don't care what!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> But all of that is genetic, right? I mean if a dog has no impulse control you can teach it not to chase, but that isn't the same as impulse control. If a dog has no prey drive you can teach it to run after something but it still has no prey drive.
> I mean Shadow knows I won't let her chase a cat, but if that cat runs often enough she's eventually going to flip me off and go for it. So the genetics are trained for and managed but not changed.


Like a lot of things in the realm of animal behavior, it's really hard to know why something happens or doesn't happen. We can have ideas based on experience but we can't ask the dog why it made a certain decision. Can a habit become genetic? Isn't that how some wolves decided it was better to be friendly to humans and get free handouts? 

What came first? The division into dogs and wolves because of existing genetic tendencies, or the division of dogs and wolves because of genetic tendencies developed from learned behavior / habit? So the "nice" wolves ended up by the fire because they were already genetically nice, or the wolves that ended up by the fire became genetically "nice" because it worked, genes changed and the trait was passed on.

I am nowhere near smart enough to figure out how a wolf becomes a lab, but I tend to think that it is more than selective breeding alone.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Like a lot of things in the realm of animal behavior, it's really hard to know why something happens or doesn't happen. We can have ideas based on experience but we can't ask the dog why it made a certain decision. Can a habit become genetic? Isn't that how some wolves decided it was better to be friendly to humans and get free handouts?
> 
> What came first? The division into dogs and wolves because of existing genetic tendencies, or the division of dogs and wolves because of genetic tendencies developed from learned behavior / habit? So the "nice" wolves ended up by the fire because they were already genetically nice, or the wolves that ended up by the fire became genetically "nice" because it worked, genes changed and the trait was passed on.
> 
> I am nowhere near smart enough to figure out how a wolf becomes a lab, but I tend to think that it is more than selective breeding alone.


Something else from my library which I think helps us understand - and interesting references to genes.
(A little lighter than a research paper!)  
Wolves to Dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Barrie said:


> Something else from my library which I think helps us understand - and interesting references to genes.
> (A little lighter than a research paper!)
> Wolves to Dogs.


I apologize for not looking at your previous reference material. I will check both these sources out when I have a little time to do so. Thanks for sharing.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I mean if a dog has no impulse control you can teach it not to chase, but that isn't the same as impulse control.


I don’t agree with this statement. When you say natural impulse control, the first thing you need to know is the desire is even there. Then you have to look at how strong that desire is. Then that will tell you how much control the dog actually has. It’s no coincidence that you can take low drive dogs seem like they have plenty of impulse control out of the gate and it takes a lot more work for high drive dogs. If you’re referring to the thresholds of a dog that’s different.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

There is such thing as a clear head. A clear headed dog has incredible and precise inner control over his drives, impulses, and actions, he can think in all circumstances. I clear headed high drive dog will spend no more effort on not chasing that running cat or not biting that rushing UPS delivery guy than a clear headed low drive dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> There is such thing as a clear head. A clear headed dog has incredible and precise inner control over his drives, impulses, and actions, he can think in all circumstances. I clear headed high drive dog will spend no more effort on not chasing that running cat or not biting that rushing UPS delivery guy than a clear headed low drive dog.


I disagree. It takes no effort to not do something that you have no desire to. It takes a lot more effort to not do something you have a strong desire to. A dog with no drive to chase a ball isn’t showing control by not chasing a ball.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> I disagree. It takes no effort to not do something that you have no desire to. It takes a lot more effort to not do something you have a strong desire to. A dog with no drive to chase a ball isn’t showing control by not chasing a ball.


This is it precisely! My dog has great prey drive, but has never shown any desire to chase a kid or a car or a bike. None of that is impulse control! Still trying to put a square peg in a round hole LOL!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

“I disagree. It takes no effort to not do something that you have no desire to. It takes a lot more effort to not do something you have a strong desire to. A dog with no drive to chase a ball isn’t showing control by not chasing a ball.”

It’s a valid point. The way I see it, If a high drive dog assesses the situation and deems chasing the ball not feasible at the moment, he will not have to put a lot of effort into not chasing that ball. Dogs are not one dimensional, they are not just ruled by one drive, they can switch, and move between them back and forth within split seconds. 

After I end a fetch game I can throw the ball all I want, my dog will not chase it. Effortlessly, and not because he does not have a ball drive. 

An analogy. Does it take a larger mental effort for a driver in a fast car to slow down when they drive by a known speed trap than for a driver in an old van?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GSD07 said:


> “I disagree. It takes no effort to not do something that you have no desire to. It takes a lot more effort to not do something you have a strong desire to. A dog with no drive to chase a ball isn’t showing control by not chasing a ball.”
> 
> It’s a valid point. The way I see it, If a high drive dog assesses the situation and deems chasing the ball not feasible at the moment, he will not have to put a lot of effort into not chasing that ball. Dogs are not one dimensional, they are not just ruled by one drive, they can switch, and move between them back and forth within split seconds.
> 
> ...


Ah, but in both cases it's a learned behavior.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Ability to learn is genetic. Some are gifted, some will drive their teachers/ trainers crazy  The ability to think and generalise regardless of the level of arousal under any circumstances is genetic.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> It’s a valid point. The way I see it, If a high drive dog assesses the situation and deems chasing the ball not feasible at the moment, he will not have to put a lot of effort into not chasing that ball. Dogs are not one dimensional, they are not just ruled by one drive, they can switch, and move between them back and forth within split seconds.


What does it take for the dog to reach the point where he determines he can’t get the ball? If I’m talking about impulse control, I’m looking at the ability to do something, the desire to do it, and the choice not to. All three need to be there to show impulse control. I think the higher the desire and the easier to act on that desire, the greater the impulse control required to not act.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> An analogy. Does it take a larger mental effort for a driver in a fast car to slow down when they drive by a known speed trap than for a driver in an old van?


Not sure where you are going with this one. The vehicle you drive is irrelevant. The mental effort to do it isn’t going to change. Your driving style will change the stress of seeing the speed trap as well as how you are driving in that moment. I don’t see it as relatable here.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> After I end a fetch game I can throw the ball all I want, my dog will not chase it. Effortlessly, and not because he does not have a ball drive.


How do you end the game and how did you teach this to the dog?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Its was an analogy, not a day from life of an average American commuter  The vehicle was relevant because it’s powerful, fast, responsive, enjoyable to drive over 100 miles per hour. Yet one will slow it down with the same little effort as if they drove an old slow car capable of nothing. Vehicle - drive. If it doesn’t make sense than please disregard, it may not be the best example for conveying my thoughts.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

From my perspective discernment just like drive is indeed fixed, or pretty stable, by genetics, on that I agree entirely! 

But!



GSD07 said:


> The ability to think and generalise regardless of the level of arousal under any circumstances is genetic.


This "could be" genetics if it ever occurred...it just doesn't! When you think about impulse control, it serves 2 purposes. First to keep the animal alive, a dog may have a strong desire to chase and kill, but it learns not to engage with a moose out of self preservation! 

The other, is a strictly human construct. My dog is 5 yrs old, she has never caught a rabbit, but if one pops up in front of her she still can't resist the temptation to chase it!

She has learned not to while on a leash.
That's not discernment, it's not genetic, it's a learned behavior.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Add this to the mix and... 💥🔥
Different types of drives dogs may have.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> What does it take for the dog to reach the point where he determines he can’t get the ball? If I’m talking about impulse control, I’m looking at the ability to do something, the desire to do it, and the choice not to. All three need to be there to show impulse control. I think the higher the desire and the easier to act on that desire, the greater the impulse control required to not act.


That's why I used Punk as an example. Extreme prey drive, if it moves she's on it. Complete lack of discernable impulse control, and judging by the shrieking an extreme desire to chase said moving object. 
Now training has taught her that acting on that impulse is a no go, it does not stop the leaking, but tempt her enough and her lack of impulse control is going to overcome her dislike of a correction. Because ultimately her need to chase, catch, kill is stronger then her need to please me. This is a dog with significant higher prey drive then pack drive. In most things I would suggest that she is a sweet and fairly biddable dog. But understanding the nature of a thing is vital to successful relationship with that thing.
Training to overcome this would in my opinion cross a line, so it is managed instead.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> That's why I used Punk as an example. Extreme prey drive, if it moves she's on it. Complete lack of discernable impulse control, and judging by the shrieking an extreme desire to chase said moving object.
> Now training has taught her that acting on that impulse is a no go, it does not stop the leaking, but tempt her enough and her lack of impulse control is going to overcome her dislike of a correction. Because ultimately her need to chase, catch, kill is stronger then her need to please me. This is a dog with significant higher prey drive then pack drive. In most things I would suggest that she is a sweet and fairly biddable dog. But understanding the nature of a thing is vital to successful relationship with that thing.
> Training to overcome this would in my opinion cross a line, so it is managed instead.


That sounds like a description of a dog that doesn’t have the nerves to handle the drive it has.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If I’m talking about impulse control, I’m looking at the ability to do something, the desire to do it, and the choice not to. All three need to be there to show impulse control. I think the higher the desire and the easier to act on that desire, the greater the impulse control required to not act.
I guess, the dog with a clear head can moderate his desires real quick so they are not so high when it is not appropriate/safe/etc so he does not have to waste his energy on controlling impulses that didn't come into play in the first place?

All the drive terms we use are simplification so we can converse about dogs and develop some guidelines that work for training. The dogs are not some robots that we just have to figure out their parts, program in a certain way and voilà, sit back and enjoy the performance. All we can do is observe, adjust, and develop mutual understanding.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> How do you end the game and how did you teach this to the dog?


I just say "Last Time", throw the ball and this is it. I don't teach it specifically, I just do it, and every dog gets it very quickly. Often when I end the game I can pick up the ball and throw it somewhere if it's on the way, and my dog does not go after it.


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