# Can a bicolor carry recessive white gene?



## Sabotecho1 (Oct 1, 2021)

I’m doing some research into German Shepherd color genetics. I know it’s not widely considered appropriate to breed white German shepherd dogs but I was hoping to find a little help here. Is it possible to get white puppies from a bicolored and a white GSD? I’ve spent many hours searching and color genetics about white GSD is vague and difficult to find on the Internet.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

I know someone who has a white shepherd that came from two colored parents. Only one in the litter and NOT an albino. So I suppose it's possible.

What's so inappropriate about breeding white shepherds, though? They've become their own catagory in dog shows, haven't they? They're called a different breed, but they're just GSDs dipped in milk to my knowledge.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

It’s possible if the bi-color has some kind of recessive gene for white. I would think if a breeding of a white and bi-color were to occur that you’d get pups with large white markings and maybe solid whites but I don’t know for sure, I’m still working on studying genetics


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Genes and coloration is interesting, so I poked around and found this from a thread in 2018. 



Castlemaid said:


> The masking gene is apart from the color genes, so a dog can carry the white masking gene in addition to a regular color gene (be it black and tan, black, or sable), and may or may not have the dilute gene.
> 
> Sable is dominant. So the male may be heterozygous with sable (expressed) and black (recessive), and must have the dilute gene and the white masking gene as both of these are also recessive. So to produce white, black and blue, the female also must be a carrier of the recessive black, dilute and white masking genes.











Color question


I am completely perplexed on the color genetics. I am looking at a silver sable male. He was bred to a black/tan (very light coloration) and in one litter they produced (according to breeder) sable, white, black and blue. Anybody venture a guess on how this is possible? Can you carry both a...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NadDog24 said:


> It’s possible if the bi-color has some kind of recessive gene for white. I would think if a breeding of a white and bi-color were to occur that you’d get pups with large white markings and maybe solid whites but I don’t know for sure, I’m still working on studying genetics


white is not a color. White is a masking gene that covers up the genetic color. I believe it is recessive and both parents need to carry it.

If you breed a white to a non white, it will not produce dogs with large white markings. A different gene causes white markings in breeds called the "spotting gene" (S Locus) There is no spotting gene in the German Shepherd breed. Any white spots you see on German Shepherds is called residual white and it's just something that happens in utero where the color doesn't develop in spots such as toes or chest because that is the last places color develops.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you do a search for Embark and White German Shepherds, you will find some dogs that you can access their genetic traits. Part of the white seems to go back to the red pigment gene. And part to the recessive E Locus. So if the dog has (2) copies of e (which means a dog has to get a copy from each parent and a bicolor can carry without expressing and being white since it's recessive)then they can't produce black hair and will be red. Combined with a dilute red - you get white. At least that is the way I'm reading the genetics.

To me, and just my opinion, the red dilute seems to be similar to the black dilute that causes liver (and if a double dilute will cause blue). For example, my black and tan has an "Intermediate Red Pigmentation" on that loci which produces her tan points.









Loar’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - Loar wants to share his results with you!




my.embarkvet.com














ALPINE VON WHITE NOBLESS’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - ALPINE VON WHITE NOBLESS wants to share her results with you!




my.embarkvet.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So "white" is recessive depending on the E Locus. And how "white" depends on the Intensity Loci. 

So now you also know why some dogs are tan, golden and considered "washed out" in color as well


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is interesting. I always thought if a white was tested, it could tell what "genetic color" it was. But Embark shows this under the Noble dog. So apparently if they are (ee) then they can not express color at all so it won't show in a genetic test.











For example - here is my black/tan female's genetic color. She is black/tan and carries black (at/a) with intermediate red pigmentation








Faren vom Warkonhaus’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - Faren vom Warkonhaus wants to share her results with you!




my.embarkvet.com


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> This is interesting. I always thought if a white was tested, it could tell what "genetic color" it was. But Embark shows this under the Noble dog. So apparently if they are (ee) then they can not express color at all so it won't show in a genetic test.
> 
> View attachment 579015
> 
> ...


Why do you say they can’t test for it? The gene is still there. I read that as the gene is turned off when they say it can’t be expressed. Meaning it won’t have an effect.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> This is interesting. I always thought if a white was tested, it could tell what "genetic color" it was. But Embark shows this under the Noble dog. So apparently if they are (ee) then they can not express color at all so it won't show in a genetic test.


You were right at first. Here is what the testing looks like for a white shepherd. This is just from a search I did.


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## 1963ohiamhappy (5 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> Genes and coloration is interesting, so I poked around and found this from a thread in 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I hve a black female bred 2 times with tan with black mask she had 7 black and 2 solid white, this time she has 13 both the same bred and she has 9 black and 4 solid white


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## 1963ohiamhappy (5 mo ago)

1963ohiamhappy said:


> I hve a black female bred 2 times with tan with black mask she had 7 black and 2 solid white, this time she has 13 both the same bred and she has 9 black and 4 solid white


If anyone would like to see these puppies in Alabama I hve white German Shepard out of a male that looks like RinTinTin and the female solid black with a little sable on her feet, it looks funny, but they are beautiful babies. Let me know how this could be? Thanks


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I have a 16 month old all white male (not an albino). Mom was brown/black markings, dad was black. One sibling from litter is a uniform gray color. 

Why is it not appropriate to breed white dogs? Because of the double recessive? 

My pup seems terrific so far, with great temper, drive, and smarts. If he continues this way we were thinking of breeding him.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Boatswain2PA said:


> I'm a little late to this discussion, but I have a 16 month old all white male (not an albino). Mom was brown/black markings, dad was black. One sibling from litter is a uniform gray color.
> 
> Why is it not appropriate to breed white dogs? Because of the double recessive?
> 
> My pup seems terrific so far, with great temper, drive, and smarts. If he continues this way we were thinking of breeding him.


White is a color outside of the breed standard in all written standards basically, so a white dog would be frowned upon for using in breeding. Not only are they out of standard, but they perpetuate the issue into future generations. That is an opinion however. That is all based on physical conformation. It’s similar to the opinion about long coats, even though those are more accepted than whites. The reality is an AKC registered white dog can produce AKC registered dogs, so they can be bred. Should they is the topic.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> White is a color outside of the breed standard in all written standards basically, so a white dog would be frowned upon for using in breeding. Not only are they out of standard, but they perpetuate the issue into future generations. That is an opinion however. That is all based on physical conformation. It’s similar to the opinion about long coats, even though those are more accepted than whites. The reality is an AKC registered white dog can produce AKC registered dogs, so they can be bred. Should they is the topic.


Thanks, that's what I figgured.

There are a lot of great (healthy, good drive, great temperment, smart) dogs who don't meet the subjective written standards.

With regards to a white shephard, as long as they are healthy then the "issues" only seems to be with those writing the rules.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

There are a lot of unhealthy dogs of ALL breeds that DO meet the written standards and breeding them seems to be considered "improving the breed".

I really hate dog shows. Working lines are not always better, but at least MOST of the time the problems work themselves out because the animal is bred for usefulness and not appearance. I won't go so far as to say dog shows and the animals they produce should NOT exist, but you'd be hard pressed to get me to support the practice.

Registries are given more weight than they deserve too. Ignorant owners think a dog with "papers" is automatically a sound, healthy dog, when they don't even know what those "papers" are. They don't guarantee anything except that the puppy is supposed to come from this and this parent and here is the rest of the lineage if you'd like to look at it for yourself.

This topic diverged a bit from the original question. Oops. _climbs off soapbox_


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's shepherd not "shephard".The United Kennel Club recognizes the White Shepherd as a separate breed that can be shown in conformation.If a UKC White Shepherd puppy was born black and tan it couldn't be shown in conformation either.Breed standards are not meant to be subjective,but they often are somewhat or there wouldn't be different lines.
The real issue with unusual colors in GSDs is more often than not people breed them for color only.Health and temperment fall by the wayside.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Boatswain2PA said:


> I'm a little late to this discussion, but I have a 16 month old all white male (not an albino). Mom was brown/black markings, dad was black. One sibling from litter is a uniform gray color.
> 
> Why is it not appropriate to breed white dogs? Because of the double recessive?
> 
> My pup seems terrific so far, with great temper, drive, and smarts. If he continues this way we were thinking of breeding him.



First, white is a masking gene, not a color gene. Your dog is genetically a color you just can't see. White dogs do not fit the breed standard. Look up SV standards. All the things you need to know as to why are in that document. It has nothing to do with the recessive gene. 

As far as the "uniform gray color", that dog would be a Blue. That actually is a dilute gene from black and there are health issues related to that particular gene in many breeds. So there are reasons to avoid breeding blues. So given that there is a "uniform" blue that would imply that the mom, who is black/tan, carries the black gene. The only way to get a black dog is for each parent to carry the color because it is a recessive (not to be confused with the dominant black gene that was brought in from bringing in a completely different breed in Russia in the showlines)

In Europe, white dogs are registered as Swiss Shepherds. Same dog, same breed, different name. 

If you want to breed your dog, a good personality isn't a sufficient reason. Drives, conformation, ability to work all matter. So go train and title your dog and prove he's breed worthy. It's not easy. I've washed two well bred working dogs for things I didn't like or health reasons that should not be passed on.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> First, white is a masking gene, not a color gene. Your dog is genetically a color you just can't see. White dogs do not fit the breed standard. Look up SV standards. All the things you need to know as to why are in that document. It has nothing to do with the recessive gene.
> 
> As far as the "uniform gray color", that dog would be a Blue. That actually is a dilute gene from black and there are health issues related to that particular gene in many breeds. So there are reasons to avoid breeding blues. So given that there is a "uniform" blue that would imply that the mom, who is black/tan, carries the black gene. The only way to get a black dog is for each parent to carry the color because it is a recessive (not to be confused with the dominant black gene that was brought in from bringing in a completely different breed in Russia in the showlines)
> 
> ...


Thanks for info.

So not supposed to breed white because of non-conformity, NOT because they are more likely to carry genetic health issues (like the blues apparently can), right?

So far he has great drive, and his training is going much faster than I thought it would (for both of us!). While I hope he turns out to be a great GSD and can breed him, I will get him cut if I see any issues at all.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Thanks for info.
> 
> So not supposed to breed wite because of non-conformity, NOT because they are more likely to carry genetic health issues (like the blues apparently can), right?
> 
> So far he has great drive, and his training is going much faster than I thought it would (for both of us!). While I hope he turns out to be a great GSD and can breed him, I will get him cut if I see any issues at all.


Are you doing health testing and X-Rays ?Potential dams need testing also.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Yes, would certainly do that if he continues to look good. 

Both parents had Embark which showed no genetic issues. He is from moms first litter so she has not had hips checked yet. Dad is police dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Boatswain2PA said:


> He is from moms first litter so she has not had hips checked yet. Dad is police dog.


You think this is ok?


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> You think this is ok?


Do you think this is NOT ok?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hips and elbows first.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

dogfaeries said:


> Hips and elbows first.


Please expound.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Do you think this is NOT ok?


I’m going to give you an answer but in short absolutely not. Before I give you a longer answer, I have some questions for you. What colors were these parents? Do you have their pedigrees? What disciplines was the sire certified in? What work has the Dan done to porive her temperament? Does the dam have hips, elbows and dm now? What do you plan to do to prove the temperament of your dog? What are you striving to produce?


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m going to give you an answer but in short absolutely not. Before I give you a longer answer, I have some questions for you. What colors were these parents? Do you have their pedigrees? What disciplines was the sire certified in? What work has the Dan done to porive her temperament? Does the dam have hips, elbows and dm now? What do you plan to do to prove the temperament of your dog? What are you striving to produce?


Black/brown, and brown/black. As I posted they produced interesting color pattern in 2 pups. My white one, and an all-grey one.

They are not AKC registered. 

I am expecting dame to be getting checked any time. I'll check after Christmass. 

I am training him. No, not jumping through the AKC hoops, but training him nonetheless. I am amazed at how smart he is. I might do some formal protection training, but not sure about that yet as we are fairly remote.

What am I striving to produce? Well, I'm not to STRIVING to produce anything. But if the stars (health, ability, temperament, etc) all line up and this is a great GSD (although not AKC), it might be interesting to see what happens if bred with another great white GSD.

Yes, I know that it will upset some people here who believe that all GSDs should be only bred by AKC registered parents, and also cost $5k or more. I don't agree with that sentiment. Let's just agree to disagree on the absolute need for registration.

I do agree that anyone who considers allowing a pet to breed should ensure they do so responsibly. 

I think there is a middle ground here.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

AKC is just a service that keeps track of the pedigrees.Looking back through the relatives in past generations is vital to decide which two will be likely to produce what you actually are striving for - health, ability, and temperment. It's a road map. Breeders of dogs that are outstanding herders or hunters that are mixed breeds keep careful records(pedigrees) even though they aren't officially a breed.The past matters.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Please expound.


Hips and elbows xrayed BEFORE breeding, not after, of both the potential sire and dam. OFA requires that a dog be 2 years old before they can certify the results. Knowing what those results are could prevent that dog from being bred. Also DM testing before breeding too.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

dogfaeries said:


> Hips and elbows xrayed BEFORE breeding, not after, of both the potential sire and dam. OFA requires that a dog be 2 years old before they can certify the results. Knowing what those results are could prevent that dog from being bred. Also DM testing before breeding too.


Thank you. 

DM tested by DNA, right? (Is negative on dames Embark)


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## 1963ohiamhappy (5 mo ago)

Boatswain2PA said:


> I'm a little late to this discussion, but I have a 16 month old all white male (not an albino). Mom was brown/black markings, dad was black. One sibling from litter is a uniform gray color.
> 
> Why is it not appropriate to breed white dogs? Because of the double recessive?
> 
> My pup seems terrific so far, with great temper, drive, and smarts. If he continues this way we were thinking of breeding him.


Hello! I hve a bi- color black GSD female , Ive bred her 2 times once to a tan and black saddle back male and she had 2 solid white puppies in her first litter, the second litter she was bred to a red and black German Showline male again she had 4 solid white puppies. My female’s grandmother was solid white and her great grandfather was solid white. She is the only one that was a carrier of this gene not either of the males. I know they don’t let them show but these are beautiful very intelligent dogs just like the ones with color. I think it’s unfair for these GSD to be treated so differently. Merry Christmas everybody Connie


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

1963ohiamhappy said:


> I think it’s unfair for these GSD to be treated so differently.


The only thing they are prevented from is competing in conformation. Any other events are open to them.That seems fair. All dog breeds have a standard and a short list of faults that prevent them from competing in conformation.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

1963ohiamhappy said:


> Hello! I hve a bi- color black GSD female , Ive bred her 2 times once to a tan and black saddle back male and she had 2 solid white puppies in her first litter, the second litter she was bred to a red and black German Showline male again she had 4 solid white puppies. My female’s grandmother was solid white and her great grandfather was solid white. She is the only one that was a carrier of this gene not either of the males. I know they don’t let them show but these are beautiful very intelligent dogs just like the ones with color. I think it’s unfair for these GSD to be treated so differently. Merry Christmas everybody Connie


Any solid white females look really good for possible breeding?


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Any solid white females look really good for possible breeding?


Word to the wise, this is not a good place to look for mates.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Black/brown, and brown/black. As I posted they produced interesting color pattern in 2 pups. My white one, and an all-grey one.
> 
> They are not AKC registered.
> 
> ...


First off, you make a lot of assumptions about what I think and don’t think. It you are going to breed dogs and call them German shepherds, they should be registered there’s zero excuse for that. It’s disingenuous to the people buying them and it does a disservice to the breed. Every issue those dogs have will be lumped on German shepherds. Is a registration necessary to breed a dog? No. There are many great herder programs that put dogs into working roles and are successful in sports. Those people know what they are breeding however. They know what’s behind the dogs they are breeding. They have the health testing for those dogs. Those dogs have proven temperaments. There’s nothing that makes your dog breed worthy. Every dog I own can learn tricks and do well in a variety of public scenarios. A good pet does not make a good breeding dog in a working breed. It takes a whole lot more than that. You know nothing of your dogs temperament and nothing of the dogs behind him. You want to create a breeding program with no purpose. If you aren’t breeding for something, you are breeding against. You aren’t breeding for working ability, general temperament, health, conformation or anything else. You aren’t trying to improve anything. The problem with people like you who breed off color dogs isn’t that the dogs are the wrong color. That’s a minor thing that’s usually easy to fix, especially with the genetic testing available. The issue is they also seem to not care about anything else at all. There’s no AKC hoops. You’re dog has no registration so nothing for you to do with them. I’ve never said every puppy should cost 5k, no one here ever has. As a matter of fact , everyone here will tell you to pass on a 5k puppy. The cost of every dog in my house is maybe 5k.


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> First off, you make a lot of assumptions about what I think and don’t think. It you are going to breed dogs and call them German shepherds, they should be registered there’s zero excuse for that. It’s disingenuous to the people buying them and it does a disservice to the breed. Every issue those dogs have will be lumped on German shepherds. Is a registration necessary to breed a dog? No. There are many great herder programs that put dogs into working roles and are successful in sports. Those people know what they are breeding however. They know what’s behind the dogs they are breeding. They have the health testing for those dogs. Those dogs have proven temperaments. There’s nothing that makes your dog breed worthy. Every dog I own can learn tricks and do well in a variety of public scenarios. A good pet does not make a good breeding dog in a working breed. It takes a whole lot more than that. You know nothing of your dogs temperament and nothing of the dogs behind him. You want to create a breeding program with no purpose. If you aren’t breeding for something, you are breeding against. You aren’t breeding for working ability, general temperament, health, conformation or anything else. You aren’t trying to improve anything. The problem with people like you who breed off color dogs isn’t that the dogs are the wrong color. That’s a minor thing that’s usually easy to fix, especially with the genetic testing available. The issue is they also seem to not care about anything else at all. There’s no AKC hoops. You’re dog has no registration so nothing for you to do with them. I’ve never said every puppy should cost 5k, no one here ever has. As a matter of fact , everyone here will tell you to pass on a 5k puppy. The cost of every dog in my house is maybe 5k.


You are right, I did make assumptions about what you think.

And you proved me absolutely right.

We will have to agree to disagree, although I value your experience on the issue!


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

Rabidwolfie said:


> Word to the wise, this is not a good place to look for mates.


Where would one look for potential mate for a "non-conforming" mate?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> Where would one look for potential mate for a "non-conforming" mate?


Not on the public forum. If you and another member want to discuss breeding your dogs and making arrangements private message each other.

Mod Team


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## Boatswain2PA (Dec 26, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Not on the public forum. If you and another member want to discuss breeding your dogs and making arrangements private message each other.
> 
> Mod Team


OK, thank you.


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