# New to Breeding



## eidna22

I am planning to breed my female pending her OFA results. Any advice to give to a new breeder? How do you all price your puppies? I of course want to ensure they go to great homes either working or companion and I am wondering if price can truly affect the type of home the puppies go to. I recently had someone tell me that I am a nobody and since I only have one dog it will be difficult to sell the puppies. My thinking on this is that if it is a great breeding between two quality dogs with magnificent temperaments and proven working ability why should it matter that it is my first breeding? If the pups are healthy and well socialized that is what is most important in my mind. Also if anyone can recommend any sites or books that would prepare me that would be fantastic! Thanks all!


----------



## Zoeys mom

Are both the dogs currently titled to prove temperament and working ability? Are the males hips and elbows certified? These things IMO influence whether one should consider breeding or not and influence price a great deal


----------



## LaRen616

I think if they are OFA'd, have great temperment, can work or show then you should sell them for at least $1,000. IMO I think that when dogs are of higher price and quality chances are greater that they will end up in a better home than a $300 GSD. 

Dont get me wrong, I am not bashing people that didn't spend alot of money on their GSD, or that their GSD is of poor quality. I just know that I paid $600 for my GSD from a BYB and he has some health problems and he is above the standard.

I am not a breeder, I do not know about breeding but that is the way I feel.


----------



## eidna22

I guess it would help if I post the two dogs.
Dam
Potential Sire

My dog is not yet titled. She has been ready for her bh for some time now I really just need to go out and do it. I guess I could go get a cgc but I'd rather have the bh. I do plan to continue to work her once this flaming heat subsides. It has been one heck of a hot summer here.


----------



## Andaka

Why have you chosen this sire for your puppies? What does he bring to the litter that your bitch doesn't have? 

Also, consider waiting another year to breed your bitch until she is titled, preferably in something higher than a CGC.


----------



## eidna22

He would bring more hardness and also a little more size and a blockier head. My female is quite petite but very sporty and has flashy obedience the sire also has wonderful flashy obedience as well.


----------



## cliffson1

What that sire brings to the table in terms of genetics is very strong work ethic and also very strong nerve. Also, knowing the Czech/Slovak lines the dam is from, this type of breeding is being done in Europe today by some top breeders. Mixing Czech and West workinglines. I would be interested in a puppy from this breeding from a genetic point of view. Would need to confirm abilities of both parents, but I like the genetics.


----------



## cliffson1

I posted about the male bringing more work ethic and nerve before I saw your post about hardness. But I didn't need to see your post as his genetics and his accomplishment of being in a Nationals already told me of his hardness. Good Luck!


----------



## eidna22

He is truly an amazing dog and I would expect nothing less than extremely high drive pups with a very willing attitude. These types of breedings from Czech to West German seem to be getting some great results which is why I opted to out cross her. The Dam is the kind of dog that can take a correction and the tail just keeps on wagging and her whole life is pleasing me. She has surpassed my expectations by a million and her attitude just continues to amaze me when it comes to new training, experiences, people and places. All you have to do is look at her to tell she really loves to work she certainly doesn't have to be forced. I definitely don't see this breeding hurting the breed that's for sure. 
Thanks for your comments Cliffson! Seems like we think alike


----------



## holland

She sounds like a really nice female...like her looks too and the sires...Hope that you post pics


----------



## JakodaCD OA

both dogs are stunning


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Beautiful looking dogs!

If it were me breeding (not a breeder in any means, but am a potential purchaser) I would be looking for working titles on both dam and sire. Yes, she may have what it takes but I want to "see it". 

Cliff is the one to "know" the dogs pedigree and genetics so I trust his judgment (he has proved to have excellent knowledge in this in the time I have been on the forums) but as a potential purchaser I would want to see the titles on both side.

But, beautiful dogs! I am sure you will get some great pups! Do you plan to keep one back?


----------



## onyx'girl

Is there anyone that can mentor you? Being allowed to share the experience of the actual breeding, whelping and raising of the pups would help you as much as any book. 
The BH and CGC are not titles but tests. I would wait to breed your girl until she has at least a 
SchH1. Or herding titles if that is your chosen venue.
Get her on the field so others can see what she is made of, you'll have a wait list for reserves by then. If you aren't involved with a club, I'd begin there, many times a member may be a breeder, you could make contacts thru the club~ get a better start there than asking forums for advice. 
I wish you luck, the pair you have chosen look great on paper and in pics!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Both dogs are beautiful. I wish you the best of luck in becoming a breeder!


----------



## selzer

I am not into working dog lines, but the sire is absolutely awesome looking and has the titles, etc show his quality. 

As I said, I am not into the working lines, but my advice for what it is worth, is to join a Schutzhund club, get to know some people, get her titles while you are awaiting the OFAs, that will help you network and know some people with working lines. 

I think for pricing, you have to measure the quality of what you are producing against what others are producing in the area. You have a national competitor, theirs is all WGWL or whatever. I think it is important to NOT sell for too cheap. I think that gives the impression that there is some reason for your dogs to be cheap. 

The first litter is a hurdle that all breeders must get over. It DOES make a difference. I mean with your hip guarantee, will you offer money back or a puppy out of a future litter? How do they know you will EVER breed again, and if you do, will they be sure that the quality will be the same? Someone with a number of years of experience will definitely have something you do not.

When we buy from a breeder, we are purchasing a puppy and some expertise and possibly lifelong guidance/advice. If you have NEITHER experience OR titles -- meaning never have earned any title, a purchaser will not have that avenue for advice with their dogs. 

I think shepherds need training, and coming from a breeder that has taken dogs through a level of training and had the dog evaluated/judged by a non-biased person will help you over that hurdle of a first litter. 

What you do not want is to have to repair your reputation down the line.

And people looking for a working line dog might be lurking around schutzhund clubs, people who know people looking for a dog might point them to you if you have friends there. Just a thought.


----------



## JKlatsky

selzer said:


> As I said, I am not into the working lines, but my advice for what it is worth, is to join a Schutzhund club, get to know some people, get her titles while you are awaiting the OFAs, that will help you network and know some people with working lines.


What Selzer said  

There are a couple quality females that I have seen regularly at training, and when you see an impressive female...most people want to know when she's going to be bred and to whom. I know I have my eye on another handler's promising female and it's good to watch her grow and go through her training so that if everything turns out in the end...I know I'm interested in the breeding and would definitely take a puppy. 

Exposure of your bitch in working venues is going to help you get those homes that you really want- The Working Ones. It will also help build your reputation in the Sport which will make for better networking. Otherwise you're resorting to more conventional methods for selling which are more difficult for screening or you end up keeping the puppies longer until you are able to find the right match on homes.


----------



## Mrs.K

Why do you bring more size? You can be lucky when they are within the standard and medium sized. The German Shepherd has such a huge problem with dogs outside the standards that I will never understand why people want to have more size. 

Good choice on the sire though.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> The German Shepherd has such a huge problem with dogs outside the standards


Apart from some peoples' personal preferences not being met, exactly what are these *HUGE* problems? And in what world are 60, 70, 80, 90+lb dogs considered 'medium size'? 

Historically, the GSD was an all around working & companion dog. Size was less important than temperament, work ethic & ability, but the dogs were most frequently large dogs. Some were truly medium sized. Others were very large. Most were & continue to be large.


----------



## KMSlemons

RubyTuesday said:


> Apart from some peoples' personal preferences not being met, exactly what are these *HUGE* problems? And in what world are 60, 70, 80, 90+lb dogs considered 'medium size'?


I have often wondered why so many people refer to a GSD as a medium sized dog, too. I think the only time my boy qualified to be called medium was when he was 3 1/2 months old and weighed 42 pounds. Personally, I think anything above fifty pounds is "large" or "extremely large".


----------



## Emoore

KMSlemons said:


> I have often wondered why so many people refer to a GSD as a medium sized dog, too.


Because it says it in the breed standard?


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> Why do you bring more size? You can be lucky when they are within the standard and medium sized. The German Shepherd has such a huge problem with dogs outside the standards that I will never understand why people want to have more size.
> 
> Good choice on the sire though.


Maybe it's more about substance than size? I don't see a problem with it. I have a 21.5" 51lb bitch who is pretty refined, not a lot of bone or substance and a very feminine head. I don't breed, and she's spayed, but if I did, I'd look for a male with a bit more substance and head (among other things) because I do think that "presence" (not size) is important for a breed that deters and apprehends suspects and threats in many lines of work.

Also I don't see where the OP is not actively part of a club or training? Didn't say either way so we can't assume s/he doesn't know what s/he's talking about.


----------



## Doc

27" at the withers and 90 pounds is a medium dog?


----------



## selzer

It is perspective. GSDs should be 25.5 - 26 inches at the withers (males) and up to 90 pounds (not in any standard though). If you have a 260 pound Mastiff, a 200 pound Leonberger, and a 78 pound GSD, who is the medium sized dog?

If you have a 6 pound Yorkie, and a 13 in beagle and a 65 pound GSD bitch, which dog is large or huge?


----------



## lhczth

The male GSD is supposed to be 60-65 cm with 1 cm over or under allowed. That is 23.6" to 25.6" plus .4" allowed over or under. That is a medium sized dog. Originally the breed also was not as heavy as it is now. 

Females 55-60 cm or 21.7" to 23.6". 

Of course people think the breed should be large and then when they see my 57cm bitch they think she is a puppy.


----------



## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> The male GSD is supposed to be 60-65 cm with 1 cm over or under allowed. That is 23.6" to 25.6" plus .4" allowed over or under. That is a medium sized dog. Originally the breed also was not as heavy as it is now.
> 
> Females 55-60 cm or 21.7" to 23.6".
> 
> Of course people think the breed should be large and then when they see my 57cm bitch they think she is a puppy.


Thank you and I absolutely agree with you, I have the same problem and Zenzy isn't a "small" bitch!


----------



## Doc

selzer said:


> It is perspective. GSDs should be 25.5 - 26 inches at the withers (males) and up to 90 pounds (not in any standard though). If you have a 260 pound Mastiff, a 200 pound Leonberger, and a 78 pound GSD, who is the medium sized dog?
> 
> If you have a 6 pound Yorkie, and a 13 in beagle and a 65 pound GSD bitch, which dog is large or huge?


Semantics. How about large and extra large in your first example. It is clear why the German shepherd dog exhibits so much diversity within the Standard. The standard is all subjective with very few hard quantifiable measurements. The Standard is open to anyone's interpretation and that's why we see what we see today.


----------



## Chris Wild

lhczth said:


> Of course people think the breed should be large and then when they see my 57cm bitch they think she is a puppy.


Yup. When out and about, the general public seems to think my 59cm bitch is a puppy. 

When around knowledgeable GSD folks, I usually get asked "why did you neuter your male?".

Even 64cm, 90lb Kaiser used to get called young or small. The public perception of the GSD is of a much larger dog than the GSD is intended to be. And of course many breeders are capitalizing on that intentionally breeding dogs that are oversized. Not just slightly oversized, but in some cases grossly oversized.


----------



## Mrs.K

> "why did you neuter your male?".


So why did you?


----------



## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> So why did you?


It's the same 59cm bitch. Born with a uterus, not balls.  Guess it didn't come across correctly on line. My point was the general public thinks a top end of the standard bitch is small or a puppy. Knowledgeable GSD folks, particularly those familiar with working lines and used to seeing more standard sized GSDs, see a dog of her size and at first glance assume it's a male.


----------



## Liesje

I was at the vet last week with Kenya (almost 7 year old working line) and Nikon (not yet 2 year old show line). Kenya is 51lbs, Nikon is 66lbs. He is 24.5" but still taller than her and *looks* substantially bigger because he has more bone, bigger head, more muscled, even though he is still smaller for a male. The vet tech looked at them both and said Kenya is the smallest GSD she'd ever seen but "it makes sense because she's still a puppy." Not only is she nearly 7 years but she has a gray muzzle, lol. When Nikon was younger people were always commenting on my "puppies". Interestingly, I've had a few gentlemen approach me when I have Kenya and comment that she looks "just like the military dog so-and-so had during the war."


----------



## LaRen616

I do hear comments about how big Sinister is but I also hear comments on how they think he is small and they ask me "When will he be full grown?" or "I have seen bigger Shepherds than yours, was he a runt?" My neighbor has a 5 month old puppy that weighs almost 70 pounds and he is almost as tall as Sinister 

Sinister is almost 1 1/2 years old, he is 28' at the shoulder and he weighs 77 pounds


----------



## selzer

I should have worded mine differently, I meant the most a dog should be heightwise, depending on which standard, I know that with AKC they can be as small as 24 inches. 

Most of my girls are all at the upper end of the standard or slightly over. But I get both, "they are HUGE", and "Gee, they are pretty small aren't they?" And I just shake my head. I like their size. I see them as a medium sized dog. I think of large dogs as being dogs over 90 or 100 pounds. And Giant dogs, 200 pounds.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> The male GSD is supposed to be 60-65 cm with 1 cm over or under allowed. That is 23.6" to 25.6" plus .4" allowed over or under. That is a medium sized dog. Originally the breed also was not as heavy as it is now.


 That's almost universally considered a large dog. The upper end of the scale (almost 90lbs) would be considered a _very_ large dog. 

The breed originally tolerated greater variation in size as well as long coats & whites b/c the paramount concern was all around working ability, not cosmetics or specialized sporting dogs.


----------



## selzer

RubyTuesday said:


> That's almost universally considered a large dog. The upper end of the scale (almost 90lbs) would be considered a _very_ large dog.
> 
> The breed originally tolerated greater variation in size as well as long coats & whites b/c the paramount concern was all around working ability, not cosmetics or specialized sporting dogs.


I don't know if that is correct about universally considered large. I think to people who are accostomed to small dogs, yes, they are considered large. 

What I find as odd, is that many people consider retrievers as medium sized dogs and many of them are BIGGER than GSDs. Maybe it is the pointy ear thing.


----------



## Doc

The Standard height and weight goes out the window when the judges step into the ring.


----------



## lhczth

Doc said:


> The Standard height and weight goes out the window when the judges step into the ring.


Even so, it should still be in the minds of those fighting to maintain the German Shepherd Dog as a utilitarian working breed.


----------



## Liesje

selzer said:


> I don't know if that is correct about universally considered large. I think to people who are accostomed to small dogs, yes, they are considered large.
> 
> What I find as odd, is that many people consider retrievers as medium sized dogs and many of them are BIGGER than GSDs. Maybe it is the pointy ear thing.


Yeah I know people with Aussies that are bigger and much heavier than my full grown GSD, yet that is a breed that has now been bred down to "teacups".


----------



## selzer

Teacup Aussies????

I always thought Aussies are about the size of border collies and maybe down to the size of shelties. I think of teacups as little toy dogs like Yorkies, maltese, shitzu, etc. 

They are breeding Aussies smaller and smaller then?


----------



## JKlatsky

selzer said:


> Teacup Aussies????
> 
> I always thought Aussies are about the size of border collies and maybe down to the size of shelties. I think of teacups as little toy dogs like Yorkies, maltese, shitzu, etc.
> 
> They are breeding Aussies smaller and smaller then?



Have you not seen the mini Aussies? They're fairly popular around here...and only slightly larger than a Sheltie. Of course there are people who are breeding them even smaller...I have seen Tea Cup Aussies advertised- although to me they look more like Merle Chihuahuas.

Home page


----------



## selzer

ick.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Mini Aussie look like Aussie puppies. I will stick with the regular sized Aussies.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

my standard sized aussies are both 21", with the aussies, even tho they have a preferred size in the standard, they aren't that strict when it comes to size. 

I have seen bigger than mine, and smaller than mine all considered 'standard' sized aussies..I have quite a few friends with mini aussies, and they are all great dogs, have just as much "oomph" as standard ones just bred in a smaller package. Actually some of the standard breeders breed back and forth with the mini's, (atleast I know of a few) for diversity etc..

The teacups, what can I say, that I think is a "sin",,they are throwing in pomeranians/chi's, whatever, and the majority of them look like the breed they've been crossed with, vs a teacup aussie(

I wouldn't mind a mini some day)


----------



## eidna22

Ok for some reason I stopped getting notifications on this so let me clear up some of this. I was very active in my local club for 2 years and have taken a much needed break due to personal reasons. My mentor thankfully is the owner of the sire and I trust his judgement on anything I do with my dog. His experience speaks for itself. 

About the size. If whoever posted that bothered to look at either dog I think it is quite obvious I am not breeding "shiloh shepherds" here. As I said before my female is a little small and I would like any females she produces to be of the standard with a little more height and build to them. I can't stand the thought of hip dysplastic over sized GSD's. So that is of no concern. Seems like the size issue took this post over. 

Also thanks Liesje for not making assumptions. I think you got where I was going with size. It is all about substance.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

good luck, they are both stunning dogs!!


----------



## eidna22

selzer said:


> I am not into working dog lines, but the sire is absolutely awesome looking and has the titles, etc show his quality.
> 
> As I said, I am not into the working lines, but my advice for what it is worth, is to join a Schutzhund club, get to know some people, get her titles while you are awaiting the OFAs, that will help you network and know some people with working lines. My dog has an umbilical hernia for instance and I would like to know how to avoid that and other matters such as a bitch laying on pups what whelping box have you used? What's best? Things like that. Sometimes multiple opinions help me make up my mind.
> 
> I think for pricing, you have to measure the quality of what you are producing against what others are producing in the area. You have a national competitor, theirs is all WGWL or whatever. I think it is important to NOT sell for too cheap. I think that gives the impression that there is some reason for your dogs to be cheap.
> 
> The first litter is a hurdle that all breeders must get over. It DOES make a difference. I mean with your hip guarantee, will you offer money back or a puppy out of a future litter? How do they know you will EVER breed again, and if you do, will they be sure that the quality will be the same? Someone with a number of years of experience will definitely have something you do not.
> 
> When we buy from a breeder, we are purchasing a puppy and some expertise and possibly lifelong guidance/advice. If you have NEITHER experience OR titles -- meaning never have earned any title, a purchaser will not have that avenue for advice with their dogs.
> 
> I think shepherds need training, and coming from a breeder that has taken dogs through a level of training and had the dog evaluated/judged by a non-biased person will help you over that hurdle of a first litter.
> 
> What you do not want is to have to repair your reputation down the line.
> 
> And people looking for a working line dog might be lurking around schutzhund clubs, people who know people looking for a dog might point them to you if you have friends there. Just a thought.


I agree completely. I posted this question in hopes of getting some different avenues of preparedness for what lies ahead in terms of delivering and whelping a litter. I actually found my dog through my club and through other friends/breeders that I know. My dog has an umbilical hernia for instance and I would like to know how to avoid that and other matters such as a bitch laying on pups what whelping box have you used? What's best? Things like that. Sometimes multiple opinions help me make up my mind. I have great people to speak with about this including my trainer but I just asked others as well. Why not?

There is nothing at all that would make this litter cheap. This is the type of breeding that many working line folks look for and one that I am looking forward to myself in keeping a pup back to work. This is something that I am extremely passionate about. I think my bloodline is good but it needs more to make it better and that is the ultimate goal.

Absolutely there is someone out there better than me, that just can't be argued at all. But the same is true for anyone starting out and I take inspiration from those who are doing what I like...


----------



## Mac's Mom

eidna22 said:


> ...About the size. If whoever posted that bothered to look at either dog I think it is quite obvious I am not breeding "shiloh shepherds" here. As I said before my female is a little small and I would like any females she produces to be of the standard with a little more height and build to them. I can't stand the thought of hip dysplastic over sized GSD's. So that is of no concern. Seems like the size issue took this post over. QUOTE]
> 
> Eidna, I cringed when I saw size mentioned. I knew your thread would be derailed.  I hope you got some good advice. Good luck with breeding.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Selzer, I've never met anyone that considered Labs, Goldens or Flatties to be anything but large. Rotties & Setters, too. People seeking medium sized dogs are looking for something considerably smaller than ~55 to ~90 lbs. Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds & Mastiffs are considered giant breeds rather than merely large.

Mac's mom, large, including very large, properly bred GSDs are NOT more prone to HD than smaller GSDs. Some giant breeds historically have considerably less HD than GSD. IF you prefer the smaller examples of the breed that's fine, but please don't spread misinformation about the others.


----------



## Doc

lhczth said:


> Even so, it should still be in the minds of those fighting to maintain the German Shepherd Dog as a utilitarian working breed.


I agree it should be in a breeder's mind.


----------



## KZoppa

having seen the lines you're wanting to breed and how sturdy the dogs are just in their pictures and you're wanting to improve the lines with this breeding, i say go for it. They're gorgeous dogs. Now i can honestly admit i know very little about pedigree but from what i do know, those dogs are pretty well off. I would be heavily interested in a pup from that litter if i didn't already have 3 GSDs.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

RubyTuesday said:


> Selzer, I've never met anyone that considered Labs, Goldens or Flatties to be anything but large. Rotties & Setters, too. People seeking medium sized dogs are looking for something considerably smaller than ~55 to ~90 lbs. Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds & Mastiffs are considered giant breeds rather than merely large.
> 
> Mac's mom, large, including very large, properly bred GSDs are NOT more prone to HD than smaller GSDs. Some giant breeds historically have considerably less HD than GSD. IF you prefer the smaller examples of the breed that's fine, but please don't spread misinformation about the others.


I have been around Labs, Goldens, Rotties, and Setters they are indeed a medium sized breed. I have also been around Great Danes and Mastiffs and those are also indeed large sized breeds.


----------



## selzer

My parents setter was 45 pounds on his heaviest day. He was a hunting line, Llewelyn line English Setter, the show lines get much bigger. 

But, GSDs are often smaller than labs but the ears/look usually put them in the large classification. I think it is more a perception people have of them. I see a 50 - 90 pound dog as medium sized. My sheps start at 52 and go up to 75 pounds -- they are all bitches. I do not see them as large dogs. I see them as medium sized dogs. 

Dogs over ninety or a hundred pounds are large and dogs over 160 are giant. 

But that is just my perception.


----------



## eidna22

Got my OFA's back today after about 6 weeks. I thought I would never get them! Hips good and elbows normal. She jumped up on my boyfriends lap and he said " get your normal elbows off of me!" He was joking of course but it cracked me up lol


----------



## JakodaCD OA

LOL, that IS funny! and congrats on the ofa !!


----------



## eidna22

Thanks we are doing our last breeding tonight and hopefully it sticks  I am really excited. Last week was a good week... I will be updating our website soon with pics and info on both dogs and then I'll post it here.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

great can't wait to check it out !


----------



## eidna22

Ok I am working hard folks! I am hoping to have this site up tonight and will definitely post the link in this forum. All critiques will be much appreciated!


----------



## GSDElsa

What I say you do (because, you know, my opinion is of the utmost importance  ) is get her BH so she has a title (if you want to breed, might as well muster the enthusiam NOW!!!!), and then focus on the breeding. I think you will make a very good name for yourself if you have that first and the litter second...and I'm sure have no problem selling the puppies.

It's refreshing to see someone posting on here inquiring about breeding who more or less seems to have their ducks in a row! I'm not on here often much anymore, but I like it!


----------



## holland

A BH isn't a title


----------



## Andaka

holland said:


> A BH isn't a title


Please explain.


----------



## Chris Wild

The BH is pass/fail and is considered a certificate, like a CGC, not a true title.


----------



## GSDElsa

Chris Wild said:


> The BH is pass/fail and is considered a certificate, like a CGC, not a true title.


Hm. Interesting. I did not know this. (that's an obviously statement!)

Well, I withdraw my statement that she should get a title on the dog my doing this, although I still says it would be a good thing!


----------



## Chris Wild

Well, semantics over what's officially considered a title or not, the advice to do *at least* a BH before breeding is certainly sound.  Preferably farther than that.


----------

