# Rejected for therapy training.



## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

We have a wonderful, gentle 3 year old female LH who came from a rescue situation that we felt would be a good therapy dog. Mind you I am sure we are very naive about what this is all about, but clover is gentle with everyone she has ever met and loves children for example. She has not had any formal training beyond a basic obedience class.

With all this in mind, we responded to a posting for a local hospital looking for new therapy dogs. Clover went to the evaluation today and was not accepted. She was on her best behavior but did take notice of the other dogs around her (checking things out like a shepherd does). She responded to all commands. She was one of two shepherds there, both of whom were rejected. The other one, a male, was even better behaved than Clover.

It seems they were looking for a high (schuthund?) level of training, and perhaps had some preconceived notions of what they would and would not take in a dog, including breed. Again, perhaps we are very naive, but I would be interested in some thoughts, input and suggestions relative to our experience. We have always been more "pet" oriented, but it seemed a good possibility for Clover with our assessment of her temperament to do this kind of work.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Who did the testing? TDI and Delta society people do the testing here. The test Luther took was EXACTLY the same as the CGC with a few add ons for him being able to resist food (he failed on that!)

If you want to do therapy work with Clover, I would suggest taking a CGC prep class and tell the instructor what parts of the therapy test she failed on so you can work on that.

Get her a CGC then contact TDI or Delta to get her certified. 

Just because THAT hospital tester seems to have an issue with GSDs doesn't mean you won't be able to take her to nursing homes or rehab centers. 

When my grandmother was first in a nursing home, I happened to bring Rex with me for company on the 2 hour ride. One of the nurses saw me with him in the parking lot, asked me who I was there to see and said bring him in becuase the patients would love to see him. They did, he went to that home every other weekend to see my grandmother (who adored him) and my then BF used to take him around to see other patients who wanted to see him. Nobody ever asked for Rex's credentials...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hard to say why Clover was rejected - the tester may actually have been very experienced and noticed some mild body language or signals that Clover was uncomfortable, or slightly stressed. 

Or, they could have had a bias against GSDs, not sure. Different organizations will have different criteria and requirements for therapy pets. Years ago, I had my spaniel/retriever mix tested for therapy work, and he passed with flying colours. He was handled all over, pushed over on his back, pinched, proded, dominated, taken out of the room by a stranger to mingle with other strangers, etc. He was waggy-tailed and kissy-kissy through the whole test. His obedience was only basic, but they weren't looking for high-level obedience training, just a safe, well behaved family pet.

I think that one thing they your testers might have been looking for is a very out-going dog, that willingly and calmly approaches strangers for interaction. Clover's behaviour may have been too good in that respect, perhaps showing the typical GSD aloofness which may have been seen as disinterest in people.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Excellent points, Lucia. Pretty much things I was going to point out but you did it much better so I will follow with a simple "What she said".


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

> Quote:
> It seems they were looking for a high (schuthund?) level of training, and perhaps had some preconceived notions of what they would and would not take in a dog, including breed


I doubt they were looking for Schutzhund level training, beyond a BH type temperament test. The latter breed prejudice is more likely.

I would have simply asked why, of only to gauge the tester's reasoning.

I'd try again, maybe with a different registry. Testers like judge's can get swollen heads, they're only human.


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

Back when I took my first GSD Josey to be tested for therapy dog training, the guy who did the testing was fascinated with her. Said he had never seen a shepherd respond as well as she did. He told me she passed, and then asked if they could re-test her again with me out of the room, just to see how she would do. My rock solid girl just blew them away with her fabulous temperament. I truly do believe that you encounter a whole lot of breed discrimination because the groups are used to Labs and Goldens. 

Best wishes with your endeavor. I hope you find someone else with a little less breed prejudice. Therapy dog work is very rewarding.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

I'll also go with Castlemaid's reply. It would be interesting to know what type of testing this was, or if was the hospitals' own group doing a pretest. 

One of the difficulties people run into is that there are testers who think "one temperament fits all dogs." We don't expect all our dogs to act the same in class since different breeds react diffeereently. Skye always checks out anyone entering or leaving the area or room she is in - it doesn't stop her from being a great therapy dog.

You may have run across someone who automatically rules out GSDs or there could have been something you missed. I would have asked.

Don't give up on this yet.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

This was a hospital group doing their own pre-test. If anyone knows an independant therapy testing group in the Chicago area, particularly the western and southwestern suburbs, I would be interested.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Here are several animal assisted therapy organizations in Chicago. They each have their own testing I believe. I'm a member of the first two and I have done training/testing with the third. They don't discriminate based on breed.

http://www.sitstayread.org

http://www.caninetherapycorps.org

http://www.rainbowaat.org

http://www.pawsitivetherapy.com

http://www.fvtherapydogs.org

http://www.finecanine.com/therapy_dog_training.htm

http://www.paws4patients.org


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## Sweet Mammy (Jun 22, 2008)

I went to the good dog foundation (http://www.thegooddogfoundation.org/) and they hooked me up with someone in my area. She was evaluated (for how obiediant she was, and temperment) I was told her temperment was KEY. She was accepted and will be TRAINED to be a therapy dog. I would say, check around, there must be another orgiinazation in Chicagoland that wants you guys to help!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just finished the test with Rush. The examiner asked me all kinds of questions about him, besides the glorified CGC type test. And one of the things she asked was whether I do schutzhund training. 

I was a little shocked. I mean I know that a lot of schutzhund has nothing to do with bitework. I told her no, I am just working in AKC obedience and Rally with him. She persued trying to convince me to go for it. I told her I did not want my dogs to get over that inhibition to biting. And anyway, Rushie is a powder puff dog. He does not act afraid of anything, and loves EVERYONE, would follow anyone with a milkbone home, etc. 

There is a children's book about a young bull named Ferdinand who just wasn't cut out to be a fighter. Well, that's Rushie. I could just picture him out there on the field with the guy in the bite suit: "Look at that yayhoo with the big arm thing, why is he waving that stick. Gee does he want me to wave too. Other dog's would grab the sleeve and run off pummeling it, Rushie would pounce on the guy with the sleeve, knock him over and lick his face. Nope absolutely useless.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Selzer, are you saying your TDI evaluator was trying to talk you into doing SchH work with Rush? And if so why?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know. I ran through my head that maybe she wanted to know if I had actually trained him in bite work. Everyone there was petting him all over and he was as sweet as could be. 

I like to think I know my dogs, I like to think that I am trying to do with them what their strengths and personality traits lend themselves to. I do not want to do Schutzhund with Rushie because I think that if I went so far as I would need to to get him to bite, he may not be the same dog. Maybe that is nuts. I don't want to risk it. 

She also encouraged me to take him to nursing homes, because a lot of older people had owned shepherds and would like to see him.

And she encouraged me to show him, she liked the dog. 

I think she talked so long to me about him because I was the last dog.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

The TDI evaluator suggested you take Rushie to nursing homes after rejecting him as a therapy dog? What part of the test did this person say Rushie fail?

Was this an actual AAT testing or something else? This is confusing.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

are you talking about therapy dogs international? TDI? or therapy dogs incorporated? TD INC.?,


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Actually, I don't think the OP mentioned any group. It was brought up later and I was also asking.

This almost sounds like not an evaluator, but perhaps some group doing a pre-test? 

I will be intereted in hearing who was doing the test, also. And why this dog was 'rejected.'


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, Rushie passed. 

It was Therapy Dog International. 

I was not the OP

I was mostly shocked because she was encouraging me to do Schutzhund with him.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Oops- sorry. I thought I was on page one but I wasn't. No wonder I was confused.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

It sounds like the evaluator was making conversation with you. Did you mention to him/her that you breed your dogs (or do you? I'm not sure), if so, he/she may have wanted to know whether you do any showing or any work with them prior to breeding?

I don't know why an evaluator would encourage someone to do Schutzhund with their dog, especially since the evaluator would not be able to tell whether the dog has the kind of drive and temperament needed for the sport while they're evaluating you for therapy dog work. The two are really apples and oranges. 

Maybe the evaluator is really into Schutzhund with his/her dogs and wanted to let you know there's a group nearby to train with? 

*shrugs* That's really the only explanations I could offer here. Of course, there's no reason why a dog trained in Schutzhund would not be a good therapy dog as well ... my Ronja is a big love bug and passed her TDI with no problems, but get her out with that bite sleeve, and she's a completely different dog!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm more surprised that an evaluator would be encouraging someone to take a Therapy Dog into Schutzhund as many larger organizations do not allow a dog tht has had any bitework training at all - unless that has changed recently. 


_NOTE: Dogs that have been trained to aggressively protect and/or have been encouraged to bite, even if it is a component of a dog sport (e.g., bite work that is part of Schutzhund) may not be Pet Partners._
Delta Society Website


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, I did not mention that I breed them. But I did mention that I had several dogs with Rally titles, and the herding test thing. Maybe she was just mentioning it as another avenue to take. 

Took Rushie to the vet today for them to fill out his health form, and am sending that out in the mail today with his photo and application. Now just the waiting. 

So if I wait two months for this to come in, then it is September and it expires in December. How quickly do they renew them?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As for the op, maybe the evaluators just noticed signals from the dog that showed they weren't up to the task? My dog has a high level of training and several titles, and she has passed the TDI and the local group's exam, but I've never pursued therapy work with her because she simply doesn't enjoy it. Her commands are fine and her behavior is perfect, but she gives off other signals that are clear to me it's not where her heart is. Shepherds in general tend to be very bonded to the handler and more aloof to strangers so not all are going to be as outgoing and motivated by working with strangers.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:I'm more surprised that an evaluator would be encouraging someone to take a Therapy Dog into Schutzhund as many larger organizations do not allow a dog tht has had any bitework training at all - unless that has changed recently.


Stupid question, TJ - As far as I was aware, the only large therapy dog organization that did not register dogs that had any bite work training was the Delta Society. Which other large organizations also don't allow registration if the dog has had bite training?

If I recall correctly, the people that started TDI were active in Schutzhund with their dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Historian[
> If I recall correctly, the people that started TDI were active in Schutzhund with their dogs.


I've met someone who was very active with therapy dogs, one of the first TDI evaluators, and he is also a Schutzhund trainer, certified helper and training helper (with his own club), police K9s, and has some of the highest titled Rottweilers.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Sorry I did not respond back to the question right away, but when questioned by someone who I know has knowledge on a subject, I don't like to just give back what I think may be correct. I try to go to a source from the inside.

*I stand corrected.* When Chris asked that question the other day I sent an email off and have since then heard back from Billie Smith, Administrative Manager of Therapy Dogs Inc. and was told that a Schutzhund trained dog is allowed, BUT from the application process through final testing they are evaluated to make sure that they are suitable for the dual functions. It sounds as if they are also looking to make sure the owner is also fully capable, _"there will be ample opprotunity to see if the handler really knows how to handle the dog ..." _

The people who told me their dogs were denied because they were trained in bite work must have been because the dogs were not fully able to seperate the two. 

I had previously gone to their website and did not see anything to give guidance one way or the other on the topic. _I might have missed it though._

Thanks Chris -- I now know the correct answer on that question for the future.









Does anyone have a link to anything from Therapy Dogs International on the topic?


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