# Help on finding a Breeder



## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Hello! I have been doing lots of research on GSDs for the past couple months but the topic of GSDs is so controversial! American lines, german lines, show lines, working lines, over-sized, old fashion...ugh! I believe i have finally figured out what type of GSD i want, that was the hardest part. But now i have stumbled upon an even bigger and harder problem. Finding a good reputable breeder to give me what i want. Ive been searching for breeders in Southern California but really dont know where to go or what type of dogs each breeders offer. So i hope i can get some help and insight here.

I read a post from a user and what she was looking for and im looking for pretty much the same thing. I quote:

"I love the shepherds that are NOT the show breed standard. I dislike the weirdly sloped back and angled back legs, and the thin, almost collie-ish face. I like the working line shepherds better."

I believe i want a German Working line GSD. I want a male purebreed GSD with a saddle-back, rich black and red color with a big boned strong build and a broad muzzle. Im NOT looking for the over-sized german shepherd but i do want him to be on the large side. Of course health and intelligence is at the top of the list, thats a given. 

Im going to be very active with the dog. Go on jogs with him, take him to the park, train with him daily. I want him to be very bright, obedient and protective. He is mainly going to be a family dog and a companion. I have a little brother at the age of 7 so i want the dog to have a good moderat temperment. Not laid back but at the same time not too aggressive.

Heres a picture of basically what i want the dog to look like:

Max - German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

Beautiful rich black and red color, nice straight back, big boned and muscular, broad muzzle, and SO handsome!!! He may be a little on the small side though, judging from the picture, i dont know. I want him to be on the large side.


Please give me some information on reputable breeders and your opinions on what im looking for. Thank you!


P.S. This is a double post :X i accidentally posted this same exact thread in the "General Discussions" section because i didn't know this section existed. If any Admins want to delete that thread go ahead, it has no replies.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Why not Max?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I was going to ask the same thing  

Perfect age...and temperment sounds wonderful!!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

If you're near him, I vote you go visit Max too!
He sounds great!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Your description of what you want is rather contridictory. You say you want working lines, but then say you want a rich black and red saddle back with broad head, etc... Those physical traits are the hallmark of the German show lines, not working lines. While saddle patterned black and tans are found in working lines, they are not very common. Those with the heavy red pigment even less so.

Do be aware, that dogs of both types will have SchH titles. The presence of a SchH title doesn't make a dog working lines. The bloodlines determine what type it falls into. I mention this because many people are easily misled by titles and think they are getting a dog of working lines due to the presence of titles on the dog and in the pedigree, when often the dog is actually German show lines.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know we like to choose our GSD's based on looks, but LOOK at what the breeder is producing(past litters) because looks are just that. 
I love the black sable, but for what I wanted in my pup, a black sable was not going to be suitable after looking at the lines that produce them.
Be sure to read this sticky:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

I think you should check out the rescue...then you know the temperament has been evaluated. Young pups should not be running for long periods, that will have to wait until the structure is finished growing.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I'd go visit Max-even if he is small-you might find that small kinda grows on you


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Depending on living circumstances (living with parents or in an apartment) and job circumstances (not very long job history) GSRLA might not adopt to a 21 year old guy. Sad but true. 

CXVIII, whether you go through a rescue or responsible breeder, they're both going to ask you questions that pertain to the fact that you're only 21. Be prepared to answer questions like: Do you own or rent your home? If you rent, can we get a letter from your landlord saying it's ok for you to have a GSD? What will happen to the dog if you meet "Mrs. Right" and she's allergic to dogs? Are you planning to get pet insurance or do you have money saved up in case something catastrophic happens and you need to dish out several thousand dollars for emergency surgery?

I'm not asking you to post the answers to those questions, just letting you know that a good rescue or good breeder will probably ask them before letting you have one of their dogs.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I was also 21 years old when I got my GSD. I was renting the upstairs of a house at the time.

Are you renting or do you have your own home?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

just read your other thread...keeping your dog outside...rescue will not want that..they require their dogs to go to inside homes. I hope you research and decide to do this...GSD's really need to be inside with their family.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Wow what's wrong with Max?! If I were you, I'd be on him like white on rice!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Your description of what you want is rather contridictory. You say you want working lines, but then say you want a rich black and red saddle back with broad head, etc... Those physical traits are the hallmark of the German show lines, not working lines. While saddle patterned black and tans are found in working lines, they are not very common. Those with the heavy red pigment even less so.
> 
> Do be aware, that dogs of both types will have SchH titles. The presence of a SchH title doesn't make a dog working lines. The bloodlines determine what type it falls into. I mention this because many people are easily misled by titles and think they are getting a dog of working lines due to the presence of titles on the dog and in the pedigree, when often the dog is actually German show lines.


Ditto to what Chris said. I was thinking "ok, working line breeders..." then "what?! Black and red??".....


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

EJQ said:


> Wow what's wrong with Max?! If I were you, I'd be on him like white on rice!!


Yay replies! Im late for work so i can't read through them but im going to throw this out there real quick since most people talked about Max haha. I wish i could get Max!!! But unfortunately hes already been adopted a while ago. I filled out an application for him like in early 2010 but i was too late


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

My bit of advice:

1. Take your time. It is a big investment of your life. Taking 6 months or more to be sure of what you want is a good idea, IMO.

2. Go VISIT the dogs, do not decide what you want based on pictures and online descriptions. Actually GO and visit breeders, owners, shows, whatever where you can see and meet working lines, show lines, various subsets. That is the most valuable thing you can do. You may decide after meeting them that you want something entirely different.

Good luck!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Black and red/black and tan. . . . straight back. . . . a little on the large side. . . intelligent and handsome. . . . sounds like a LOT of pet-line GSDs that go through rescue all the time! Keep your eyes open and you'll find one.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

all show lines aren't angulated. i have a West German show line. he's
color is a rich blk&red. he's roached. when you look at him you know he's a male and the females from his line look like females.
Max looks blk&tan to me.



CXVIII said:


> I read a post from a user and what she was looking for and im looking for pretty much the same thing. I quote:
> 
> "I love the shepherds that are NOT the show breed standard. I dislike the weirdly sloped back and angled back legs, and the thin, almost collie-ish face. I like the working line shepherds better."
> 
> .


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

:thumbup:



cassadee7 said:


> My bit of advice:
> 
> 1. Take your time. It is a big investment of your life. Taking 6 months or more to be sure of what you want is a good idea, IMO.
> 
> ...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you were her you would be doing the same thing she is doing. :crazy:



EJQ said:


> Wow what's wrong with Max?! If I were you, I'd be on him like white on rice!!


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Your description of what you want is rather contridictory. You say you want working lines, but then say you want a rich black and red saddle back with broad head, etc... Those physical traits are the hallmark of the German show lines, not working lines. While saddle patterned black and tans are found in working lines, they are not very common. Those with the heavy red pigment even less so.
> 
> Do be aware, that dogs of both types will have SchH titles. The presence of a SchH title doesn't make a dog working lines. The bloodlines determine what type it falls into. I mention this because many people are easily misled by titles and think they are getting a dog of working lines due to the presence of titles on the dog and in the pedigree, when often the dog is actually German show lines.



Screw being late for work!! Haha. Yeah i was thinking that may not be the case (working black tan) simply by googling "working GSD" in google images when i was researching. Which is why i said "I _believe _i want German Working". I was hoping i had finally figured out what type i want, apperantly i was wrong. I have been doing research on and off for a little over 1 year now. I dont know anyone who has GSD so im all alone, until i found you guys! 

Alright Chris, so based off of what i described, what am i looking for? German Show? Im trying to stay away from "Show" lines. I have been put under the impression that anythhing "Show" isnt as agile, active, athletic, muscular, etc. and are just bred to show them off. Some insight on this would be high appreciated. I definitely dont want American Show...what an abomination!


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Why are you planning on keeping him outside?


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Myamom said:


> Why are you planning on keeping him outside?



Well in my opinion big dogs should stay outside. Especially with the GSD and how much hair they shed. I dont really see an issue with it, especially in Southern California. I have a big back yard with lots of grass and trees. And im not going to be adopting.

For the other questions; i live with my parents in a house and we are a family of 5. My older brother is 23 and my little brother is 7.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If you're planning to keep your dog outside, please reconsider getting a GSD. Maybe an Anatolian or a Pyranees or some other breed that doesn't have such a strong need to be with its people. GSDs don't do well at all left out in the yard. They want to be with you all the time, even if you're just sitting on the couch watching TV. A Shepherd left outside will usually find ways to amuse himself that you won't like, such as barking incessantly, digging tunnels to China and out of your yard, eating the siding off the house, digging up the internet cable and chewing it in half. . .


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> If you're planning to keep your dog outside, please reconsider getting a GSD. Maybe an Anatolian or a Pyranees or some other breed that doesn't have such a strong need to be with its people. GSDs don't do well at all left out in the yard. They want to be with you all the time, even if you're just sitting on the couch watching TV. A Shepherd left outside will usually find ways to amuse himself that you won't like, such as barking incessantly, digging tunnels to China and out of your yard, eating the siding off the house, digging up the internet cable and chewing it in half. . .


:thumbup: I completely agree!

If you want an outside dog then you should not get a GSD.

GSD's need to be inside with their people.

I dont even let my dog go outside and potty alone, I am always out there with him.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Emoore said:


> If you're planning to keep your dog outside, please reconsider getting a GSD. Maybe an Anatolian or a Pyranees or some other breed that doesn't have such a strong need to be with its people. GSDs don't do well at all left out in the yard. They want to be with you all the time, even if you're just sitting on the couch watching TV. A Shepherd left outside will usually find ways to amuse himself that you won't like, such as barking incessantly, digging tunnels to China and out of your yard, eating the siding off the house, digging up the internet cable and chewing it in half. . .



I tried editing my post but it wouldn't let me.

Its mainly my parents who don't want him indoors. Like I said in the OP ill be spending A LOT of time with him. Ill probably be sleeping with him outside lol. And he's not gna go outside until he's big enough. Later we are going to be converting the garage into a room where ill be staying and based off of what you guys are saying ill definitely be living with him. I love the GSD with all my heart and ill do everything to keep him happy.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Where in Southern California do you live? I know breeders of WGSL in Riverside that have outstanding dogs if you want to go the puppy route, but bear in mind the West German Showlines are rather on the exspensive side, if you don't plan to compete in shows and such, maybe a rescue is the way to go, I personally keep my Shepherds in and out, they love being out on the ranch, but they come in at night, and were never left to themselves as puppies in the yard, too much danger involved. I would suggest you read up on crate training so you could keep your dog in your room away from your parents.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Rescues are not going to adopt to this situation.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

I will NOT be getting a rescue and I will not be putting my dog through any shows. I will however be very active with him. You guys say that the dog needs to be inside...how do you know? If the dog is a pup and when he gets about 4-5 months is put outside, how is he going to know the difference? Don't worry guys, he won't be lonely. Its a german shepherd, not a poodle. I honestly see no issue except that you guys think we won't get enough attention. Ill be spending the entire day with him, every day.

So everyone here keeps there GSD inside? How do you deal with all that shedding?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Would a reputable breeder sell someone a dog in this situation?

OP why not wait until you move out and are settled to get a dog? Spend time until then saving up and researching further into the breed and finding a good breeder and getting to know them and their dogs until you are ready for a pup.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I have to agree, a GSD should not be kept in the yard. I have a neighbor who "loves" her GSD, had him inside as a pup and then when he started shedding put him out. He has a shed he can go into for shelter but that dog is SO SAD. He is lonely and bored. He runs the yard perimeter barking all day, digging, eating his poop, chewing the lawn furniture, ruining anything he can. I feel so sorry for him. And yes they come out and play fetch with him once in awhile, but that is not enough. GSDs want to be part of the family, and left outside they will become unruly and cause "trouble" and you really won't enjoy him as much as you think.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

vacuum cleaner, that's how we deal with shedding, and if you keep them well groomed you won't get that much shedding.

How do you know that the dog needs to be outside? 

Since you've never lived with a gsd, I can give you a good idea of what would happen, should you get a puppy, let it live in the house and then decide when it's 4-5 months old to make it live outside in the backyard.

Your gonna get a howler who the neighbors will just love (NOT), a digger, and lotsa ground destruction most likely, your parents may not appreciate that. 

You say you'll be spending the entire day with him/her, how can you if you work? 

I'm not trying to discourage you (well maybe I am), but you need to be realistic. With gsd's, they do not do well left to their own devices out in the backyard.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

CXVIII said:


> I will NOT be getting a rescue and I will not be putting my dog through any shows. I will however be very active with him. You guys say that the dog needs to be inside...how do you know? If the dog is a pup and when he gets about 4-5 months is put outside, how is he going to know the difference?
> 4-5 months is STILL a baby!! Yes, a large baby but still just a pup. These dogs are not mature until around 3yrs of age.
> 
> If you spend 2-3 months bonding with that dog it will not want to leave your side. I can't leave my dog in the yard for more than 10 minutes before he is at the door whining for ME.
> ...


Deal with shedding by cleaning a lot and living with it. Dog hair is a small price to pay for the great dog in your life.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

sagelfn said:


> Would a reputable breeder sell someone a dog in this situation?


Nope. Most would not.

OP, I agree with the others that you seriously need to reconsider your choice of breed, or timing for getting a dog. The GSD is NOT a breed that does well living outdoors apart from the family. This is a breed that from the beginning was designed to work in close proximity and partnership with a human, and they are hardwired to crave an immense degree of involvement with their people and if deprived of that all sorts of mental and behavioral problems will ensue.

There are other breeds that are much more independent in nature, including many working breeds who were designed to happily live outdoors with minimal interaction with people. But the GSD is not one of them. To ignore the unique traits and needs of this breed and try to fit it into a lifestyle for which it is not suited, is unfair to the dog. If you want an outdoor dog, get a different breed. If you want a GSD, learn more about the breed and make sure the home it will be brought into is appropriate, even if that means waiting a few years until you are out on your own and what your parents prefer doesn't matter.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

CXVIII said:


> I will NOT be getting a rescue and I will not be putting my dog through any shows. I will however be very active with him. You guys say that the dog needs to be inside...how do you know? If the dog is a pup and when he gets about 4-5 months is put outside, how is he going to know the difference? Don't worry guys, he won't be lonely. Its a german shepherd, not a poodle. I honestly see no issue except that you guys think we won't get enough attention. Ill be spending the entire day with him, every day.
> 
> So everyone here keeps there GSD inside? How do you deal with all that shedding?


How do we know? Because we all have dogs that have been bred for 100-some odd years specifically to work and be around "their people." It's a trait that is engrained in them...just as protectiveness, aloffness, and loyalty.

They were not bred to be perimeter watch dogs. They were not bred to independently tend to a herd of sheep. They were bred to work WITH people. 

Ironically, you'd probably be better off getting a poodle and keeping them outside than you'd be a GSD.

How do you deal with the shedding? Because we love everything about them, including their lucious double coats. Don't like hair? Another reason to get a poodle instead


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

aside from the lonliness and destruction...there are the dangers...escaping...being stolen....eating something they shouldn't....etc.

yes...my dogs have always been inside...yes...there's fur...so we groom...we shop vac...we vacuum...and we accept...and it is sooooo worth it.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

IMO, not a good time for you to get a dog, period. You are under 23 years old and living with your parents, who don't want the dog. You say you will spend every day with him. How do you know that now. The dog can live 13 - 14 years. What if you go off to school? What if you get a job in Alaska, and can't keep him outside? What about the numerous social obligations twenty somethings have? What if you meet a partner who doesn't like dogs? The end result in all those situations is the dog most likely ends up in a shelter.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Ok maybe I should elaborate more. We spend more time outside than inside. We have a full on patio with a full kitchen, kitchen table, patio style furniture, 52 inch tv, 7900 sq ft back yard with plenty of trees and shade. My mom is a stay at home mom. She does all her cooking outside and spends most of the day outside. I have a little bro at the age of 7 who is always playing outside. Anytime we have relatives over (every day) we are outside. My job doenst have a schedual, I go when I want I come home when I want. Same with my dad.

Trust me guys, it will not be the scenerio that you guys are thinking. The dog will have lots and lots of attention. I have put a lot of thought into this.

I truely appreciate the concern, but as I said before I have really thought long and hard about all of this. Can we please focus on helping me figure out what type of GSD I'm looking for based on the description I gave so I can move on to finding a breeder?


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

personally, my pup HATES the outdoors. she goes outside with me, does her thing, and wants back in. is there hair? absolutely, and i have tile. but, i have learned to sweep 1x a day and that dog hair is a condiment. if you parents are worried about the hair, or the "dog odor", or having accidents in the house. i can share my experience. this was my first dog to potty train. it took 3 weeks to have no accidents at all what so ever. seems like a long time, but not really. she had 4 accidents at most in those 3 weeks. i bathe once a week or every 2 weeks and GSDs in my opinion, dont have that dog stink like others. i had a rotti lab mix and if he didnt get a bath 1-2x a week he stunk. the hair in manageable especially if you have carpet and dark colored at that. vacumming is a breeze. like everyone says they are people dogs. i didn't realize it until i got one. i can't go to the bathroom alone lol. but ive come to love it and when she isnt glued to me i get worried. im not trying to say a GSD wont be an outside dog, but i believe he/she would be some much better as an inside dog. better at being protective because he/she wont bark at every noise just the door bell/ knocks, and he/she will bond better with your family and be more protective over all of them. regardless if you do end up getting one and keep it in the yard or in the house. PLEASE remember to socialize =] Crates are a good thing too. if you try and negociate with your parents, tell them about the wonders of crate trainning and having one. im 19, and my mom wouldnt allow any animals in the house. after i moved out, she got 2 daschunds who are the worst to potty train, and she didnt pull her hair out over the messes they made. im home most of the time and when im not my pup is either crated or is allowed out but has something to pass the time, bones, toys, kongs, etc


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Welcome to the forum! Thanks for asking questions instead of just going out and getting any GSD! I commend you for coming here to ask questions!

On that note, it sounds like a GSD isn't a great fit for you at this time in your life. Move out of the house, party like a college student, settle down and then think about a dog when you have more time and a steady income (what worked for me). 

My dog doesn't stay outside without my eyes on him. He is my Velcro dog and I hope that never changes. I would also be concerned with dog thieves, it happens and is very sad. I couldn't imagine ever owning an outside dog, but good thing there are tons of breeds for most lifestyles! 

Shedding is either a make or break for some people. In my opinion, the extra hair in my food and drink adds great texture and flavor! The white hair on my nice black pants adds that ooomph I was looking for, and the hair floating in my car on my drive to work adds that level of excitement I was looking for oke:

GSDs are great dogs, but not for everyone, I hope you absorb what everyone is saying. You have received some very sound feedback from some great GSD owners, breeders and rescuers.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

As you can see from the previous posts, members here will put the well being of a dog first. Puting that aside, as far as finding your ideal dog, I'd recommend staying away from picking based on any physical attributes. Rather than picking colors and structure, state what you want to do with the dog. Is it just a family companion for the house (or yard I guess)? Will the dog ever leave the yard? Are you interested in the dog sport world? what activities will you get the dog involved in? etc.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't get a dog if you're going to keep him outside. Please. I have neighbors who have a mastiff, and although it's not outside all the time, when they do put it outside, all it does is BARK. And bark and bark and bark. Andbarkandbarkandbarkandbarkandbark. And barks some more. It's so IRRITATING. It keeps my mom up all night and it just drives me INSANE. I know it's barking because it's either bored or because it wants to be with its people. They only put it outside at night. 

Please don't be one of those neighbors who has the dog everyone hates because it barks all the time because it's outside and bored! (And I'm sure a GSD would be one of those dogs if they were outside 24/7).


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

unloader said:


> Welcome to the forum! Thanks for asking questions instead of just going out and getting any GSD! I commend you for coming here to ask questions!
> 
> On that note, it sounds like a GSD isn't a great fit for you at this time in your life. Move out of the house, party like a college student, settle down and then think about a dog when you have more time and a steady income (what worked for me).
> 
> ...





Thanks ! Hahaha I enjoyed reading that.

So what do you guys think based off of the life style I described above? Still no good? I'm not going to go to college. I'm not moving out anytime soon. Might seem weird to most of you but its how it is in my culture, I most likely won't move out until I get married.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

CXVIII said:


> Thanks ! Hahaha I enjoyed reading that.
> 
> So what do you guys think based off of the life style I described above? Still no good? I'm not going to go to college. I'm not moving out anytime soon. Might seem weird to most of you but its how it is in my culture, I most likely won't move out until I get married.


 Still no good. But that just my opinion. You paint a lovely picture, but in the end its not your parents, your huge yard, or your tv that suffers...its the dog. 

Regardless, I re-read your first post, you're looking for a family companion dog that you will jog with and take to the park. By that assessment, I would recommend a show line dog. You can find good show line breeders that have titled as well. That should also help you with your main criteria of how the dog looks.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

CXVIII said:


> Ok maybe I should elaborate more. We spend more time outside than inside. We have a full on patio with a full kitchen, kitchen table, patio style furniture, 52 inch tv, 7900 sq ft back yard with plenty of trees and shade. My mom is a stay at home mom. She does all her cooking outside and spends most of the day outside. I have a little bro at the age of 7 who is always playing outside. Anytime we have relatives over (every day) we are outside. My job doenst have a schedual, I go when I want I come home when I want. Same with my dad.


So you have a back yard that is almost 2 acres! WOW
Won't your mother get upset though if the dog sheds on the patio and she gets GSD hairs in her cooking? 

And what kind of job does a 21 year old get where he can come and go as he pleases, - I'm thinking you are either a real estate agent, or a drug dealer! :wild:


~ nice try, LOL, but honestly, it sounds like you made that whole paragraph up. So now, not only have you shown that your living situation is not the best for having and keeping a GSD, but have now we can't really reccommend anything, because we don't know what to believe.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> So you have a back yard that is almost 2 acres! WOW
> Won't your mother get upset though if the dog sheds on the patio and she gets GSD hairs in her cooking?
> 
> And what kind of job does a 21 year old get where he can come and go as he pleases, - I'm thinking you are either a real estate agent, or a drug dealer! :wild:
> ...



Excuse me? Who are you to judge me and call me a liar? The patio has a thick curtain that goes all around. I am a fire extinguisher and fire safety inspector. The appointments are completely up to me.

My parents do want the dog and I've talked with them a lot about this topic. As I said, this has been discussed with my family for a whole year. We realise the responsibilities and commitment it takes to owning a GSD.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

CXVIII 

I sent you a pm.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

CXVIII said:


> So what do you guys think based off of the life style I described above? Still no good?.


Still no good. 
#1 Outside dogs STINK. How much are you and your parents going to want to play with a stinky dog?

#2 Outside dogs are much more prone to getting fleas and ticks, even if you use topical flea/tick protection. How much time are you going to want to spend with a stinky dog that has fleas?

#3 Outside dogs don't develop the great manners that inside dogs have to develop to be inside dogs. So no you've got a stinky dog with fleas and bad manners. Lots of fun, huh?

#4 Outside dogs get bored at night and bark, dig, and chew. My neighbors have 2 GSDs that live outside. They bark. ALL. NIGHT. LONG. They have these subterranean tunnels under the fence where they worm their whole bodies under the fence and stick their heads and shoulders out and bark. 

Inside dogs smell nice and rarely need to be bathed. Inside dogs don't tend to get fleas and ticks. They have better manners because they have to learn them. And they actually go to sleep at night because there's nothing going on. 

How about this-- the dog goes outside while you and your family is outside, but if you're all inside, the dog gets to come in too? That way it's a "family" dog and not an "outside" dog.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

CXVIII said:


> I will NOT be getting a rescue and I will not be putting my dog through any shows. I will however be very active with him. You guys say that the dog needs to be inside...how do you know? If the dog is a pup and when he gets about 4-5 months is put outside, how is he going to know the difference? Don't worry guys, he won't be lonely. Its a german shepherd, not a poodle. I honestly see no issue except that you guys think we won't get enough attention. Ill be spending the entire day with him, every day.
> 
> So everyone here keeps there GSD inside? How do you deal with all that shedding?


I agree, if you are putting your dog outside, you should not have GSD. They are the most loyal breed of them all. Always want to be with you. We have a 9 month old female, 80 lbs. We live in a condo, she cannot stay outside - she gets three good walks (30 minutes of more a day plus indoor play). As for shedding, vacuum 2x week and regular grooming.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> So you have a back yard that is almost 2 acres! WOW
> Won't your mother get upset though if the dog sheds on the patio and she gets GSD hairs in her cooking?
> 
> And what kind of job does a 21 year old get where he can come and go as he pleases, - I'm thinking you are either a real estate agent, or a drug dealer! :wild:
> ...


** Personal attacks. Violation of board rules. Removed by Admin**


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Square Feet to Acres conversion calculator

Answer: 7900 ft² = 0.181359 acre
OR 0 acre and 877.7 yd²


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hey now, this is a family site. Don't call people rude names young man! Completely inappropriate.

I think people do have a right to be slightly skeptical since you initially said you think dogs belong outside.

I do not think that you and your family have appropriately researched getting a dog, or at least not the right breed. I really don't think that GSD's should be outside at night left to their own devices. You do live is SoCal, so there is a lot of time outside, yes, but you're still not out there all the time. Dogs, no matter what the breed--but ESPECIALLY GSD's will get themselves into trouble.

No one likes a dog in their neighborhood that lives outside at 2AM. I know ALL the dogs in the neighborhood that are kept outside at night and the majority of the day. They are all trouble!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> Nope. Most would not.
> 
> OP, I agree with the others that you seriously need to reconsider your choice of breed, or timing for getting a dog. The GSD is NOT a breed that does well living outdoors apart from the family. This is a breed that from the beginning was designed to work in close proximity and partnership with a human, and they are hardwired to crave an immense degree of involvement with their people and if deprived of that all sorts of mental and behavioral problems will ensue.
> 
> There are other breeds that are much more independent in nature, including many working breeds who were designed to happily live outdoors with minimal interaction with people. But the GSD is not one of them. To ignore the unique traits and needs of this breed and try to fit it into a lifestyle for which it is not suited, is unfair to the dog. If you want an outdoor dog, get a different breed. If you want a GSD, learn more about the breed and make sure the home it will be brought into is appropriate, even if that means waiting a few years until you are out on your own and what your parents prefer doesn't matter.



I am 110% in agreement here - no way, no how would I sell to a novice owner who thought this was the way to keep a pup...heck, I have turned down sales to experienced trainers over philosophy on living arrangements!!!

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Good_Karma said:


> Square Feet to Acres conversion calculator
> 
> Answer: 7900 ft² = 0.181359 acre
> OR 0 acre and 877.7 yd²


That makes more sense! I think I misread the square footage as 79000 ft2.
thanks for the correction.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Alright everyone, I highly appreciated everyones concern about this topic and I'm definitely taking it into consideration. As I said before, we are going to convert the garage into a room where I'm going to stay and I have no problem letting the dog stay with me if he seems to be troublesome or unhappy outside.

With that said, can we please get back to the point of this thread? Please, help me find the type of GSD based on the description I gave in the OP. I checked out West German show lines. Although the color and looks fit perfectly, it says they are oversized and not for protection? To what extent does that statement go?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

CXVIII said:


> Although the color and looks fit perfectly, it says they are oversized and not for protection? To what extent does that statement go?


What do you mean by protection? Do you expect the dog to look intimidating and bark, or do you expect it to attack and bite?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

CXVIII said:


> I checked out West German show lines. Although the color and looks fit perfectly, it says they are oversized and not for protection? To what extent does that statement go?


Where did you check out WGSLs? There are breeders who breed within the standard and have dogs capable of working.

You said earlier you were not going to do dog sports you just wanted a pet, are you now saying you want to do personal protection training?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I live in So Cal and have 2 GSDs. No, the dog do NOT belong outside. They love to be with us. They go out there to go the restroom, or if we are out there otherwise they rather be inside. GSD's love their people. In So Cal, we have rainy days(remember the 7 days of rain?), hot days(113 degree day?). I have a black GSD who has a plush coat, and yes he sheds alot, but we don't care.We love him and will clean up the hair. He is worth it.

No reputable rescue, shelter or breeder will give you a dog based on the life the dog will be given. I seriously think you and your family need to reconsider on getting a dog, especially a GSD.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Where did you check out WGSLs? There are breeders who breed within the standard and have dogs capable of working.
> 
> You said earlier you were not going to do dog sports you just wanted a pet, are you now saying you want to do personal protection training?



I said in the original post that i want the dog as a companion but also for some protection. It doesnt have to be either a police dog or a very laid back house pet. Cant it be both? 

I didnt say it isnt good for protection, websites that i read said it. I dont remember exactly which. Just a few i came across put that out there. Which is why im asking to what extent does that statement go? Do they mean its not the best for police dogs? Or do they mean that its very very laid back? If its in between then thats fine.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I live in So Cal and have 2 GSDs. No, the dog do NOT belong outside. They love to be with us. They go out there to go the restroom, or if we are out there otherwise they rather be inside. GSD's love their people. In So Cal, we have rainy days(remember the 7 days of rain?), hot days(113 degree day?). I have a black GSD who has a plush coat, and yes he sheds alot, but we don't care.We love him and will clean up the hair. He is worth it.
> 
> No reputable rescue, shelter or breeder will give you a dog based on the life the dog will be given. I seriously think you and your family need to reconsider on getting a dog, especially a GSD.



Alright i think you guys are taking this way to far. Ive had numerous PMs now from people who seem to be loyal members of this community who claimed that they keep their GSD outside and im assuming they were afraid to say it on here cuz of you fanatics and how you guys would attack them. 

This discussion about indoor/outdoor is over. Please drop it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Most oversized GSD's are laid back... The breeders who breed for oversize aren't breeding to standard either. GSD's are meant to be medium size and agile, athletic. You get one over 100# and the odds of agility in the dog is reduced. They don't have the stamina of a smaller structured dog either. They aren't meant to be large!


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Where did you check out WGSLs? There are breeders who breed within the standard and have dogs capable of working.
> 
> You said earlier you were not going to do dog sports you just wanted a pet, are you now saying you want to do personal protection training?


Well i dont want it to attack, growl, bark or bite anyone for no reason. I understand that that comes with training. I just want mild protection that if a burgular comes he growls and barks at him, or even attacks him. Or if im being threatened outside or something for him to protect me. I dont want a police dog nor do i want a dog too laid back. In between.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What you want is an obedient dog that will be a bonded companion to you, the rest will come with that. So if you do get a GSD, get one from a responsible breeder who is breeding good lines...learn about the lines!
Then you get into classes and train your dog, not in protection but in obedience. The rest will come with maturity.
But don't expect a criminal to have a gun and NOT use it(or throw some poisoned meat over the fence). 
A GSD is just a deterrent, not a weapon. 
You want a confident stable nerved dog that will be able to decipher good from bad and not bark willy nilly at anything anyone. A dog from good lines will do this with proper training.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> How about this-- the dog goes outside while you and your family is outside, but if you're all inside, the dog gets to come in too? That way it's a "family" dog and not an "outside" dog.


That's what I'd recommend too. Would your parents let you bring the dog in at night and sleep in a crate in your bedroom?

My boy Keefer is a WGSL and he's exactly 80 pounds, well within the breed standard. I have no idea if he'd protect me if I were in danger (never been in that situation), but I believe his bark would be enough to deter anyone from breaking in, and a deterrence is all I care about.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have 4 German showline dogs and they are great watch dogs, my neighbors even joke about me having the safest house in town, they are very friendly to my family and friends, but when I'm working with my horses in the yard they are all at my side and sound ferocious if someone approaches the property, they are perfect for my needs, companionship and protection.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a black and red showline male who is neither oversized nor lazy/not protective. In fact he has a protection title. He is about 75lbs.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That's what I'd recommend too. Would your parents let you bring the dog in at night and sleep in a crate in your bedroom?
> 
> My boy Keefer is a WGSL and he's exactly 80 pounds, well within the breed standard. I have no idea if he'd protect me if I were in danger (never been in that situation), but I believe his bark would be enough to deter anyone from breaking in, and a deterrence is all I care about.



Would he be happy in a crate? I dont see a problem with it if the dog would be okay with it. How old are we talking? When hes a pup hes going to stay inside of course, im assuming without a crate.

Is your WGSL active? Im going to be training with him a lot, playing sports with him at parks, and jogging with him. I want him to have lots of energy, I dont want him to be lazy.




Liesje said:


> I have a black and red showline male who is neither oversized nor lazy/not protective. In fact he has a protection title. He is about 75lbs.


What type of showline is he?


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Most oversized GSD's are laid back... The breeders who breed for oversize aren't breeding to standard either. GSD's are meant to be medium size and agile, athletic. You get one over 100# and the odds of agility in the dog is reduced. They don't have the stamina of a smaller structured dog either. They aren't meant to be large!



Yeah i dont want over-sized ones. I want him to be agile and athletic. I want the standard GSD but im sure they vary from small build to large build. 70lbs would be on the small side where as 85lb would be on the large side, and yet not large to the point where it would be conisdered over-sized.

Are WGSL over-sized?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

For that matter my American show line dogs are athletic, energetic, and protective of me and mine. They also come in many colors, including black and red.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

CXVIII said:


> Is your WGSL active? Im going to be training with him a lot, playing sports with him at parks, and jogging with him. I want him to have lots of energy, I dont want him to be lazy.


A well bred GSD is not lazy. A GSD was made to work all day everyday. 

The problem you are going to have is finding a reputable breeder to sell you a dog due to your living situation and planned dogs living situation. I know of several breeders who include the dogs living situation in the purchase contract.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I have a czec and european show lines. she is from "working lines" she is black and red, mostly black though. she is very weary of strangers but loves our family. i have no doubt if something were to happen, she would protect me. however, she still has to learn to determine a threatning stranger from a non one. with more trainning and maturity, it will come. i agree on making sure you check out the lines before you buy. to me, i love the saddle back showlines. when i got my pup, i thought oh, she's going to be mostly all black. as she matures, she is turning more and more red. she wont every have more red than black, but im okay with that. as far as protection, its instinct for them. as far as crates go, its kind of like a safe cave or his own room. put him in there when you leave, to sleep, if you want some down time, etc. they may whine, bark at first, because they dont like it, but eventually they get used to it. it is also an excellent help for potty trainning. btw, my girl is only 65-70 lbs. and i believe 23-24 in at the shoulder at 10 months, she wont ever be a big girl, but shes got time to grow.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Most of us crate train our dogs. Mine love their crates, (which are in our bedroom) they go in at night on their own and wait for me to close the door. Keefer will take a nap in there if I'm in the bedroom on my Lifecycle, and Halo often puts herself back to bed in her crate after her morning potty break, while I take my shower. I would not leave a puppy loose in the house unconfined. Puppies chew things and often they ingest what they chew, requiring surgery to remove intestinal blockages, which is another reason to crate train your dog.

Keefer is 5 years old. He loves to swim in the SF bay or the ocean, go hiking with me (3-9 miles at a time), and chase balls and frisbees at the off leash park. At home he can turn it off and be calm. I wouldn't call him "lazy", but he's not bouncing off the walls either, he has lots of energy and enthusiasm, but is capable of just hanging out doing nothing too. I would never even consider leaving him outside 95% of the time, he wants to be with me and will get up and follow me any time I leave a room. He is a companion, and I don't understand why someone would want their companion living somewhere other than _with them_.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

CXVIII said:


> Yeah i dont want over-sized ones. I want him to be agile and athletic. I want the standard GSD but im sure they vary from small build to large build. 70lbs would be on the small side where as 85lb would be on the large side, and yet not large to the point where it would be conisdered over-sized.
> 
> Are WGSL over-sized?


You do not know how big a pup will be when it is full grown. You can make good guesses based on the parents and past litters but there are odd pups that are way smaller or way bigger than the rest. You do not know what that pup is going to be when it's bigger. 

Would you really be upset if the dog was on the lower end of the scale? I doubt it. 70lbs of GSD is pretty intimidating.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

CXVIII said:


> Yeah i dont want over-sized ones. I want him to be agile and athletic. I want the standard GSD but im sure they vary from small build to large build. 70lbs would be on the small side where as 85lb would be on the large side, and yet not large to the point where it would be conisdered over-sized.
> 
> Are WGSL over-sized?


Actually the breed standard for a male is around 66 pounds to around 88 pounds. Some WGSL are oversized and some are not. Some American line dogs are oversized and some are not. Some WGWL dogs are oversized and some are not. I don't know much about the DDRs. You can't really make generalizations like that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sagelfn said:


> I know of several breeders who include the dogs living situation in the purchase contract.


Halo's breeder did - the contract stated that she would not be a kennel dog, which was fine with me. I liked that she cared enough about that to make a point of including it in her contract.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually the breed standard for a male is around 66 pounds to around 88 pounds. Some WGSL are oversized and some are not. Some American line dogs are oversized and some are not. Some WGWL dogs are oversized and some are not. I don't know much about the DDRs. You can't really make generalizations like that.


I see. Do WGSL have a sloped back like the american lines? I did a google image search and it seems like most of them do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

No.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

American lines have the "sloped" back. German Show lines have the "roached" back. You also have to realize that in those photos, the dogs are stacked to look much more exaggerated than they really are.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is Keefer, standing naturally:


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

What you are describing seems like a WGSL GSD will be best for you. The sight of a GSD and there bark is good enough deterrent. 

Since you live in So Cal, there are some beaches that have areas marked off as "dog beaches". I suggest going to those also.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Beautiful dog Cassidy! Alright at this point i think im going with WGSL!

A few other questions for your dog Cassidy, (im probably calling you by your dogs name lol) is your GSD the "long haired" type? If so are there WGSLs with medium lenght? I dont want long nor short.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't understand why someone would want their companion living somewhere other than _with them_.


Amen!


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Alright since we are still talking about this, how does this sound...

The dog stays outside during the day where the 5 people in my family spend time with him outside throughout the day. He is in constant interaction with us and isnt left alone for even more than an hour. At night i bring him in my room and he chills with me and i have one of those air cleansers that will clean up all that hair and ill vacuume or w.e it takes. Then when its time to sleep i crate him. Then all over again the next day. Keep in mind that i will be taking him out for walks, hiking, to the park to play frisbee, fetch, tricks, and just to relax...daily.

At least until i move into the garage. I REALLY want a german shepherd. It really doesnt sound all that bad to me as you guys make it out to be. Cant the dog adopt to this style of living? Does he really HAVE to be indoors all the time? How will he know that there is another option; staying indoors. He wont. As long as he gets just as much love and attention outside as inside then is there really an issue? C'mon guys work with me lol.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, your FAMILY will live OUTDOORS with the dog. I am sure that a family that doesn't want a dog inside, will dedicate themselves to taking shifts outside with the dog. 

Just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it - being a good dog owner means making decisions for the dog, and not yourself.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

CXVIII said:


> The dog stays outside during the day where the 5 people in my family spend time with him outside throughout the day. He is in constant interaction with us and isnt left alone for even more than an hour. At night i bring him in my room and he chills with me and i have one of those air cleansers that will clean up all that hair and ill vacuume or w.e it takes. Then when its time to sleep i crate him. Then all over again the next day. Keep in mind that i will be taking him out for walks, hiking, to the park to play frisbee, fetch, tricks, and just to relax...daily.


Not going to happen, it never does.



CXVIII said:


> At least until i move into the garage. I REALLY want a german shepherd. It really doesnt sound all that bad to me as you guys make it out to be. Cant the dog adopt to this style of living? Does he really HAVE to be indoors all the time? How will he know that there is another option; staying indoors. He wont. As long as he gets just as much love and attention outside as inside then is there really an issue? C'mon guys work with me lol.


What you "want" doesn't matter it is about what is best for the dog, period. This is something you appear to be completely unable to understand at this time, yet another reason not to get a dog until you mature.


Might I suggest:










There are many good types and breeders are plentiful.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Wildtim said:


> Not going to happen, it never does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:rofl:


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

They can be trained:


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Emoore said:


> If you're planning to keep your dog outside, please reconsider getting a GSD. Maybe an Anatolian or a Pyranees or some other breed that doesn't have such a strong need to be with its people. GSDs don't do well at all left out in the yard. They want to be with you all the time, even if you're just sitting on the couch watching TV. A Shepherd left outside will usually find ways to amuse himself that you won't like, such as barking incessantly, digging tunnels to China and out of your yard, eating the siding off the house, digging up the internet cable and chewing it in half. . .


Pyrs and sheep predator control dogs are going to be some of the most people bonding dogs of all.Since they do not have their "flock of sheep" to guard they will instictively bond to humans.Now if left without their flock for long periods,they will become one of the most destuctive dogs around.I personally have nothing against outside dogs as long as they have proper shelter for the elements,room to run,and lots of frequent attention and care from their owners.I mean were are talking about dogs once again and their "natural" enviroment is outside.To breed that out of them is once again questionable about what you are creating.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

CXVIII said:


> Beautiful dog Cassidy! Alright at this point i think im going with WGSL!
> 
> A few other questions for your dog Cassidy, (im probably calling you by your dogs name lol) is your GSD the "long haired" type? If so are there WGSLs with medium lenght? I dont want long nor short.


plush or show coat


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> :rofl:


Seriously,who's the one being immature now?We have a member here trying to get an opinion and some feedback on a future dog and this is what you come up with?Do you truly see this as helping a future dog owner to be a better owner?Do you think this post will help a future dog?No matter what people say on here,I'm pretty sure this girl will get a dog no matter what is thrown at her and al you will be doing is harming the situation rather than helping.She needs good honest advice that will help her in the future.She needs coaching not harasment and insults.For all we know she may be a future great dog owner.I mean she came here to ask for advice right?Before she got the pup which shows that she has the maturity to go out on a limb to ask a bunch of stranger for help first.She is obviously asking for your knowledge and this is how she is treated?Some members on here are starting to sound awfully self righteous and condeming and judging before they truly know a person.
This is not a case of horrible abuse or neglect.It's not a case of disgusting puppy mill issues or some other bad outcome for a dog.Sadly this "HAS" a become a case of casting stones at an unwary future owner.Some member really need to divert the critisism to where it's actually deserved and gang up on a more worthy cause.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Wildtim said:


> They can be trained:


Seriously,who's the one being immature now?We have a member here trying to get an opinion and some feedback on a future dog and this is what you come up with?Do you truly see this as helping a future dog owner to be a better owner?Do you think this post will help a future dog?No matter what people say on here,I'm pretty sure this girl will get a dog no matter what is thrown at her and al you will be doing is harming the situation rather than helping.She needs good honest advice that will help her in the future.She needs coaching not harasment and insults.For all we know she may be a future great dog owner.I mean she came here to ask for advice right?Before she got the pup which shows that she has the maturity to go out on a limb to ask a bunch of stranger for help first.She is obviously asking for your knowledge and this is how she is treated?Some members on here are starting to sound awfully self righteous and condeming and judging before they truly know a person.
This is not a case of horrible abuse or neglect.It's not a case of disgusting puppy mill issues or some other bad outcome for a dog.Sadly this "HAS" a become a case of casting stones at an unwary future owner.Some member really need to divert the critisism to where it's actually deserved and gang up on a more worthy cause.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> Seriously,who's the one being immature now?We have a member here trying to get an opinion and some feedback on a future dog and this is what you come up with?Do you truly see this as helping a future dog owner to be a better owner?Do you think this post will help a future dog?No matter what people say on here,I'm pretty sure this girl will get a dog no matter what is thrown at her and al you will be doing is harming the situation rather than helping.She needs good honest advice that will help her in the future.She needs coaching not harasment and insults.For all we know she may be a future great dog owner.I mean she came here to ask for advice right?Before she got the pup which shows that she has the maturity to go out on a limb to ask a bunch of stranger for help first.She is obviously asking for your knowledge and this is how she is treated?Some members on here are starting to sound awfully self righteous and condeming and judging before they truly know a person.
> This is not a case of horrible abuse or neglect.It's not a case of disgusting puppy mill issues or some other bad outcome for a dog.Sadly this "HAS" a become a case of casting stones at an unwary future owner.Some member really need to divert the critisism to where it's actually deserved and gang up on a more worthy cause.


Whoa! Excuse you! I did not insult the OP, not even once!

I laughed at something that was funny, I did not laugh at the OP.

I dont think it is immature to laugh at something that is funny, it is a joke and if you cant laugh at a joke then you must be one boring person.

The only thing I said to the OP is that the dog should remain indoors and not outdoors. If he/she wants a outdoor dog then he/she shouldn't get a GSD.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

tierra nuestra said:


> Seriously,who's the one being immature now?We have a member here trying to get an opinion and some feedback on a future dog and this is what you come up with?Do you truly see this as helping a future dog owner to be a better owner?Do you think this post will help a future dog?No matter what people say on here,I'm pretty sure this girl will get a dog no matter what is thrown at her and al you will be doing is harming the situation rather than helping.She needs good honest advice that will help her in the future.She needs coaching not harasment and insults.For all we know she may be a future great dog owner.I mean she came here to ask for advice right?Before she got the pup which shows that she has the maturity to go out on a limb to ask a bunch of stranger for help first.She is obviously asking for your knowledge and this is how she is treated?Some members on here are starting to sound awfully self righteous and condeming and judging before they truly know a person.
> This is not a case of horrible abuse or neglect.It's not a case of disgusting puppy mill issues or some other bad outcome for a dog.Sadly this "HAS" a become a case of casting stones at an unwary future owner.Some member really need to divert the critisism to where it's actually deserved and gang up on a more worthy cause.


She's gotten advice several times. That now is not the right tme to get a dog. She appears to be ignoring that and making excuses to do what she wants to do. I was driving the lessons already expressed home in a different way.

If you find that immature, OK but sometimes you have to communicate with people on their own level for them to understand the lesson.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Whoa! Excuse you! I did not insult the OP, not even once!
> 
> I laughed at something that was funny, I did not laugh at the OP.
> 
> ...


my sense of humour is fine when its appropriate.So you would say its worse to get a dog and have it outside/inside and stay with that family forever compareds to taking in a dog and then getting rid of it because it didn't fit in within a short period of time?
Thats what I'm trying to get across.Like I SAID,PEOPLE HERE CAN GET AWFULLY SELF RIGHTEOUS AWFULLY QUICK WHEN IT SUITS THEIR NEEDS TO DO SO.Its so easy to make others look bad and yes,some people like the feeling of passing on supposedley "good" info when not really taking into account their own habits first.I mean it makes so many people feel better for the short term to cast stones.
I just want to be realistic.This girl may be able to give a pup a really good home.We don't know that for sure,neither do we know that it will get a bad home.But we can make her experience here a good one so she will stay on and learn more about how good dog owners treat their dogs and what will be expected of her.She will also learn that there are many different ways of caring for a dog but not all of them are bad even though they may controversial.Like me,I have my dogs outside and inside.Outside for most of the day as I live on a farm and they are in heaven.After all they are dogs not humans and I treat them as they are dogs.They are in no way neglected and have horrible manners and dig through their kennel when I cannot watch them as so many people claimed they will do.I know that my dogs love their life and if given the chance to choose they would be outside all the time ,no qualms about it.
My advice to any up and coming owner that is the most important is that you made a choice to bring them home,not the dog or any animal for that case.You as a person knew even though some will deny it,that they are living breathing creatures that will depend on you for food,shelter and attention(people may interpret this in many different ways)You need to provide these essential needs and if it comes down to issues such as behaviour,babies,moving ect.,you have to make the best effort,not just so so or kinda of,but the best of your abbilities to make it work.It may be hard and it may put you in a less than desirable situation but ultimately you made the choice and all it entails at the beginning so you are on the hook when these issues pop up.Everything is about our choices and where they may lead us but there are always times when some choices are made for us and take away our ability to do so.In these events I see making tough and undesirable decisions as being acceptable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> my sense of humour is fine when its appropriate.*So you would say its worse to get a dog and have it outside/inside and stay with that family forever compareds to taking in a dog and then getting rid of it because it didn't fit in within a short period of time?*
> Thats what I'm trying to get across.Like I SAID,PEOPLE HERE CAN GET AWFULLY SELF RIGHTEOUS AWFULLY QUICK WHEN IT SUITS THEIR NEEDS TO DO SO.Its so easy to make others look bad and yes,some people like the feeling of passing on supposedley "good" info when not really taking into account their own habits first.I mean it makes so many people feel better for the short term to cast stones.
> I just want to be realistic.This girl may be able to give a pup a really good home.We don't know that for sure,neither do we know that it will get a bad home.But we can make her experience here a good one so she will stay on and learn more about how good dog owners treat their dogs and what will be expected of her.She will also learn that there are many different ways of caring for a dog but not all of them are bad even though they may controversial.Like me,I have my dogs outside and inside.Outside for most of the day as I live on a farm and they are in heaven.After all they are dogs not humans and I treat them as they are dogs.They are in no way neglected and have horrible manners and dig through their kennel when I cannot watch them as so many people claimed they will do.I know that my dogs love their life and if given the chance to choose they would be outside all the time ,no qualms about it.
> My advice to any up and coming owner that is the most important is that you made a choice to bring them home,not the dog or any animal for that case.You as a person knew even though some will deny it,that they are living breathing creatures that will depend on you for food,shelter and attention(people may interpret this in many different ways)You need to provide these essential needs and if it comes down to issues such as behaviour,babies,moving ect.,you have to make the best effort,not just so so or kinda of,but the best of your abbilities to make it work.It may be hard and it may put you in a less than desirable situation but ultimately you made the choice and all it entails at the beginning so you are on the hook when these issues pop up.Everything is about our choices and where they may lead us but there are always times when some choices are made for us and take away our ability to do so.In these events I see making tough and undesirable decisions as being acceptable.


Are you refering to my situation with Rogue?

Outside dogs can be poisoned, stolen or harrassed by people. What if the dog gets bit by a snake when he/she is outside? What if the neighbor next door cant stand the dogs barking and poisons him/her? What if the dog gets stolen and they use him/her as a bait dog in dog fighting?

Yes, I got a dog and rehomed him. I had him for almost 4 months, I worked with him and improved with him on some of his problems, I was not equipped to handle his other problems, I was not bonded to him and I was not going to be selfish and keep a dog that I didn't love. He deserved better than what I could give him. He is in a better home now. 

And I never made the OP look bad. I never attacked the OP. While I had Rogue he was inside my home with me, he was around me the whole time I was home. He was safe and warm inside.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This thread has over 90 posts. Most of them telling the OP in a wide variety of ways that the proposed living situation of the dog is not suitable for a GSD. To which the poster has repeatedly changed her story (went from big dogs belong outside and we don't want hair in the house to the whole family lives outdoors practically 24/7) and provided excuses some of which are pretty farfetched (she'll live in the garage with the dog).

Might she be a good home? Maybe, but in the opinions of most here that is not likely at this stage in time. Perhaps in the future with some more education on the breed and some changes in philosophy on housing arrangements. As far as making the board a good experience, is not the priority of everyone here first and foremost the wellbeing of the dogs? Should that be sacrificed in order to make people feel like the board is all sunshine and rainbows? Should we just tell people what they *want* to hear, even when it will quite possibly put the wellbeing of a dog at risk, and refrain from saying what they *need* to hear because it might make for negative experience?

The topic started as trying to find a good breeder. But the problem is that a good breeder is not going to place a puppy in a situation where:
There is no previous breed experience and a very fundamental lack of understanding about the temperament of the breed and what it needs.
The professed love of the breed is based on who knows what, but clearly not experience or understanding.
An unwillingness to learn when it conflicts with the way the person wants things to be or accept simple facts that don't fit those wants.
The dog will be living outdoors because that's where big dogs belong.
Before even getting a dog the mess and hair is a huge concern for the family.
Stories change repeatedly and excuse after excuse is given.

No doubt the OP would have no problem finding someone to sell her a GSD pup. There are plenty of breeders out there who don't care and so long as someone shows up with the $ they can have a pup, no questions asked.

But is that the sort of ownership and breeding practices we want to promote here? This is a place to educate people, and the only way to do that properly requires sometimes telling them what they don't want to hear because it's something they need to hear, and calling them out when they are completely off base in their assumptions and plans.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was thinking about this situation. Sure, none of us are intimately involved with the OP and the family. We can not speak to the intricacies of how things will work, how the dog will be valued,etc.

Just on the face of it, without personal involvement with the peole, I would also advise that this is not a great homing situation for a GSD. Now, of course, I have known dogs who have lived a variety of live styles over the years and there is more than one way to have a pet.Some are more optimal than others. 

I was always a dog lover. Before I could speak, I think. My parents were not. They had no dislike for animals but felt they belonged outside, were not a priority in their lifestyle etc. They did knuckle a couple of times to my desires. It did not work out well for the dogs because the dedication to the animal was not there from all family members. Looking back, it probably would have been best if they had not given in to my wishes and wants. Really didn't work out for anyone...especially the dog and myself.

Now that I have my own home, I am covered up in dogs. I eat, sleep and breath dogs. My parents don't understand, but it is not their house. Looking back, I wish I had not begged to bring Inky and Scamp into my family home situation.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Wildtim said:


> She's gotten advice several times. That now is not the right tme to get a dog. She appears to be ignoring that and making excuses to do what she wants to do. I was driving the lessons already expressed home in a different way.
> 
> If you find that immature, OK but sometimes you have to communicate with people on their own level for them to understand the lesson.


that is not a lesson nor is that communication.Rather laughing at someone elses expense.So many of the posts deemed this girl immature,undesirable dog owner,yada yada.... We do not know that. It comes down to people making a stink about what they "PERCIEVE" as right.Having a dog outside in calafornia weather while having a family of 5 give the dog attention through out the day is not a sign of bad dog ownership.Now leaving it chained to an oil barrel for shelter, to sleep in its own filth and scrounging on bones thrown out every so often and never being able to associate touch as anything other than a kick to get out of the way is.If the girl were to say something along the lines of this as living conditions I could see such an uproar.I mean,how can anyone deny that animals way of life naturally is outside?How can anyone say that this is cruel or bad ownership?I'm not saying dogs can't come in the house or should not be in the house but I believe we are going to extremism to say that GSD'S(working/herding dogs) should not stay outside.And we wonder why so many breeds are unhealthy and get sick for the slightest reason.
I'm curious though if some of the members that oppose outside dogs,put as much thought into their day when they see a homeless kid sleeping on a piece of cardboard as they walk down the street or when a young girl comes up to your car window bundled in multiple layer of rags and asks for you to please buy her a hamburger because she hasn't eaten in 4 days while I casually glance at the temp on the truck dash and it reads -32 celsius and then knowing she will be sleeping outside this very night with no shelter?Extremisim where its not warranted and none where its needed.People need to keep a broad mind on some subjects.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

i can agree with samba. my mother dislikes animals. except now 2 years after i moved out she caved and got 2 puppies and is in love with them.. and only them lol. growing up we had a dog, outside, and besides feeding and watering and the ocasional fetch i didnt spend time with him. i was always into horses and even though my mom wasnt, she let me get one if i paid for everything etc. after i got him, my mom always wanted to get rid of him, because he wasnt the perfect horse we thought we were getting. same thing with my rabbits. id get one to show in the fair and after a while she just didnt want to deal with feeding them. we got 2 more horses over time and my old man got sick and she didn't want to pay so he was put down i had moved out for college and wan't around everyday like she liked. a few months later i had to rehome my other 2 because she didnt want to take care of them (understandable). her heart just wasn't into it like i was. but i can say she would sell her house to get her 2 dogs well if something happend to them. it wasn't fair to my dog that he was stuck in the backyard, digging holes to get out, my mom put up hotwire around the fence. and it wasn't fair to my horses (even though now my girls are living it up on 110 acres. i just hope whatever pup you get turns out to be exactly what your parents want in a dog. but they could be cool and if the dog becomes a problem, not want to give it away. i dont know them or you. just giving a story


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

tierra nuestra said:


> I believe we are going to extremism to say that GSD'S(working/herding dogs) should not stay outside.


It's not indoors vs outdoors that people have an issue with. I thought that quite clear from the posts. It's being away from the family that is the big issue. Of course GSDs do fine outdoors. Their ancestral work had them outdoors almost entirely WITH their owner. That last part makes the biggest difference in the world.

People aren't stuck on inside or outside, they are stuck on the dog being kept away from the family. Sure, maybe this family does practically live outside and being outside would mostly be in the companionship of the family. But do they sleep outside? Is it ok to have the dog outside all night when the family is inside? Sure, maybe, if indeed the dog is getting plenty of time with the family because they really are outside from dawn to dusk every day, but even then roaming the whole yard is hardly ideal or safe.

The biggest issue I have, and I think others as well, is that in that when the OP was first questioned about keeping the dog outside the answer was that big dogs belong outside and several comments about dog hair. It was only after multiple responses saying that GSDs need to be with the family that the person started stating that the family is always outside, they'd convert the garage to a place for the dog and she'd live in there with the dog, etc... I think for people to be skeptical about that is warranted, but again it's not in our out that is the issue, it's with people or ostracized outdoors away from the family except when someone wants to go outside and play with the dog because of a philosophy that dogs belong outside that is the concern.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Are you refering to my situation with Rogue?
> 
> Outside dogs can be poisoned, stolen or harrassed by people. What if the dog gets bit by a snake when he/she is outside? What if the neighbor next door cant stand the dogs barking and poisons him/her? What if the dog gets stolen and they use him/her as a bait dog in dog fighting?
> 
> ...


yes maybe he was safe with you at the time but now he is with someone else and a completely different set of values.As I said before,we know better.A good dog owner will know that not all dogs are going to be a cup of tea but you made a choice to get another dog and yes he had problems but you knew that when you got him.He didn't fit?Once again,you made a choice to take him so work on it.I did with keeno who was on his 3rd home.I took him in and we really didn't get on well but I made the choice and I am still living with my choice.I made the effort with him because I knew If he left us he would be a dead dog.So 4 going on 5 years later here he is with a happy healthy life even though we don't klick.It has not been easy but I knew that he had some issues when we got him and I MADE A CHOICE then and there.
As for dangers,they are everywhere.A snake?really.There are more dangers in the home than out.Dogs are dogs not diapered children and yes some do treat them like this and this is their right but do not go on and make a perfectly responsible dog owner seem like a horrible abusive situation because we don't share the same values and treat their dogs like dogs and give them a great life.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> yes maybe he was safe with you at the time but now he is with someone else and a completely different set of values.As I said before,we know better.A good dog owner will know that not all dogs are going to be a cup of tea but you made a choice to get another dog and yes he had problems but you knew that when you got him.He didn't fit?Once again,you made a choice to take him so work on it.I did with keeno who was on his 3rd home.I took him in and we really didn't get on well but I made the choice and I am still living with my choice.I made the effort with him because I knew If he left us he would be a dead dog.So 4 going on 5 years later here he is with a happy healthy life even though we don't klick.It has not been easy but I knew that he had some issues when we got him and I MADE A CHOICE then and there.
> As for dangers,they are everywhere.A snake?really.There are more dangers in the home than out.Dogs are dogs not diapered children and yes some do treat them like this and this is their right but do not go on and make a perfectly responsible dog owner seem like a horrible abusive situation because we don't share the same values and treat their dogs like dogs and give them a great life.


He is with people that have had experience with the problems he has, they dont have any animals (except fish) so all of their attention is on him. They are working with a trainer to help him.

I was not told about his problems, his owners completely lied to me. I worked with him on some of his problems and fixed some of them. I was not equipped to fix his other problems. 

I think it is very selfish to keep a dog that you do not love and that you are not bonded to. He deserves better, he deserves to be loved. He is better off where he is now and that is all that matters.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Ok, can we get this back on track somewhat? If people want to get into an argument about a different poster's past dog situation that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, take it private.

-Admin


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To the OP:
The more time you can spend with a dog the better your bond will be. I think it's harder to bond with an outside dog because no matter how much time you spend outside, it's too easy to run inside to watch a movie, eat dinner, use the computer. These are all the things we do and our dogs hang out on the floor or couch next to us while we do them. *Outside dogs miss this part of life and I think, at least with GSD's, they need the down time with the family as much as they need the playtime.*

Can an outside dog assuming it has shelter, food, water and a safe environment, be happy and well balanced? Yes. There's a possibility that your dog would get more attention than the dog that's left alone in a crate for 9 hours a day. No one here really knows how your dog would handle it's living situation and in the end it's going to be your decision, not ours. I guess the point is, please think about it realistically rather than idealistically. It has to be a commitment for the life of the dog, nothing else should be acceptable. 

As for breeders...If your mother will be spending more time with the dog during the day than you, I would be looking for a pup that had medium to low drive and a nice mellow temperament. You want a dog that's not going to be easily bored. You can train a mellow dog to run with you, fetch, take hikes etc. they just tend to accept the words "we're done" better than high energy, crazy about the ball, "can we do it again, huh? Can we?" type of dog. Your mother might want some time to herself.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Well, I think I gave you pretty sound advice in the beginning of this thread before the whole outside/inside thing came up. I said it is VITAL to go out and meet dogs of various lines, and stop trying to pick a line based on pictures and websites. If you are serious and love the breed, do that, and take 6 months to a year to choose your dog. If you are really going to convert the garage and live with the dog, you can have it done by then.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

I agree with cassadee7, go out and meet dogs! Go to a local GSD club, or any other breed club for that matter. Get to know different dogs.

I would also recommend having 100% buy-in from your parents. Having a GSD, or any dog for that matter requires full support of everyone, especially the OWNERS of the household.

There was a puppy named Bella that a family next door to me got a few years ago. Sweet as could be, but they just left her outside all day and night. She barked and dug holes and was extremely destructive, 2 months later she was sent back to the pound. 

All I am trying to say is, that with no parental buy-in AND being an outside dog stacks the odds of having a great family pet against you. It can tear families apart. Not to mention an unsupervised puppy spells bad news. In my opinion, a crate is the only 'safe' place for a puppy to be when unsupervised.

I would suggest completing the garage reconstruction, during that time, research the breed by going out to clubs, researching breeders and then reevaluate where you are in your life.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

To the OP:

Hear me out I think it's great you are coming here and asking for advice. This is a great place to start. Their are so many members that are very educated in this breed and have alot of valuable information to share.

My advice for what it's worth is to WAIT until you have your own house to get a GSD. You really need EVERYONE in the household to be on board 110% with getting a dog. I honestly believe one person not wanting the dog will cause a negative effect on the dog-it's always the dog that suffers in the end.

I know not the advice you wanted to hear. But focus on yourself right now, get yourself squared away, continue to work, save money, etc.

This breed is like no other, GSD are truely amazing and the bond/companionship is very strong-trust me worth the wait


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

Wow. Alright so now its my turn. First of all im a guy lol. Everything ive said, you guys have taken in a negative way. I tell you guys that my family spends lots of time outdoors and explain to you our outdoor situation with the big tv, kitchen table, big back yard and such, to give you an idea of the fact that we spend LOTs of time outside. Most of you took that as me boasting about being rich or something, which we definitely are NOT. I change up the story?? So now multiple people are calling me liars, some idiot is calling me a drug dealer, laughing at the size of my back yard when they don't know the size of an acre. Most of you have actually helped and inputted your advice like normal human beings giving help. But some of you have not. How do i feel? Attacked. Im not changing the story im changing the rules that i had begun with, which was the dog would stay outside 95% of the time. I was under the impression that a dog is a DOG but thankfully you guys have made me realise that the german shepherd isn't quite the same. Ive never had a german shepherd nor have i known anyone who has. So i changed up the rules to him being outside about 70%. As in he would be outside most of the day with constant interaction with my family members and when nightfall comes i bring him to my room until its time to sleep then crate him. Im not changing any stories and none of you should be calling me a liar. Im not here to impress anyone or get anyones approval, i couldnt give ***removed by Admin*** Im here to get peoples opinions in a HUMANE way. Like "WhiteShepherds" and the rest of the people on this page. Unlike some of you have been giving. Sad part is, most of you are grown adults, dads and moms. Pathetic. Im not a dumb kid, of course i have been soaking up everything you guys have been saying and of course i have been reconsidering. The only thing is that some of you take this to a much further extent than others. Bluntly put, freaks. Relax, the dog doesnt have to sniff your butt-hole while you're taking a ***removed by Admin*** Im old-fashioned about dogs. I believe that it is part of the family but at the same time that it is a DOG, and there should be some boundaries. Most of you are thinking "Would my dog like what he is proposing"? Of course not, your dog is used to what you have given it. If a dog is raised without some of the things, like laying at your feet while you're in the ***removed by Admin*** then he won't know any different than what has been exposed to him. Like people, whats out of sight is out of mind.


Im done here. Thanks for those who helped and the ***removed by Admin*** to those who have been ***removed by Admin***.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Now who's being rude and immature? you. You are posting the same stuff you are complaining about.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

CXVIII said:


> ***removed by Admin***


now my sense of humour is coming out.Sorry about calling you a girl the whole time.Ya just seemed to come off as one for some reason.


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## CXVIII (Jan 26, 2011)

tierra nuestra said:


> now my sense of humour is coming out.Sorry about calling you a girl the whole time.Ya just seemed to come off as one for some reason.


Loll its okay. I was just excited about finally asking people questions and getting some real feedback. Im sure the "Yay" and stuff made me sound..***removed by Admin*** haha. On the contrary, im an ex-pro boxer lol.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Good grief. Male or female, upset or not, profanity and slurs are NOT allowed on this board. I have edited your posts and if such language continues to be used it may result in suspension of your account.

-Admin


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I understand your point about dogs being dogs. I don't disagree. However, ALL of my dogs are inside dogs. That doesn't mean they are loose and wreaking havoc in my house. They all have large crates in the house which protects my house, my dog, and my sanity. There are ways to manage the situation to make everyone happy...unless they really don't want the dog in the first place. 

Understand that many people have grand ideas about all the time they will spend with their dog. It really, most of the time, does not happen. It is a statistical face that the VAST majority of dogs never go to any kind of training beyond puppy class. People are tired coming home from work, don't like dealing with the dog (ESPECIALLY a puppy) that runs all over everything, so they throw it out in the yard for exercise where they won't have to deal with it. German Shepherds are busy dogs. Leave them alone for too long and they will definitely create their own fun as others have said. They can also get neurotic and undersocialized. 

Now I may not be in the majority, but I don't have a problem with dogs that are kept securely and safely outside in a kennel. One that has no drainage problems, is regularly cleaned, and is usually on concrete so the dog cannot dig out. I have a 5x10 kennel on my back porch with rubber matting that I will put a dog in during the day when I am at work. And then they get out to run as soon as I get home, and are in the house for the rest of the day. A pup CANNOT be left unsupervised in a backyard. And I mean actively supervised. Puppies eat rocks,mulch, all kinds of things that will cause you a headache later when you're either dealing with diarrhea or some kind of surgical impaction. Adolescent dogs develop other crummy behaviors. They dig (I have a lovely hole in the middle of my yard from a dog that was outside unsupervised for 10 minutes), they bark, they howl, they escape (I can't even begin to tell you how many loose dogs I've found in my neighborhood that got out of their 6ft privacy fenced yards durign the day while owners were at work), etc. 

German Shepherds are not low maintenance dogs either. They do shed. Alot. Daily bruhsing and vacuuming will keep the majority of this in check. I do baths 3x a year. Dogs kept outside do smell much worse than inside dogs, and they tend to get a residue to their coat. 

Bottom line. This really is not a breed for everyone. Give it careful consideration. If you decide to go with it, understand that it is a serious commitment. I have had several people ask me about my Shepherds and I usually ended up steering them in a different direction.

As far as lines go- You need to visit breeders. You need to visit dog clubs, show clubs and working clubs. Only by seeing these kind of dogs in action will you really be able to get a feel for what you want. And remember the adult dogs are a result of the commitment that was put into them. Be sure to ask what training the adult dog has been through so you have a good idea of what it takes to get the dog to where you see it that day.


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