# Scared of people - worried about what kind of temperment I got



## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

So Jaimie has been home for a couple of days just spending tons of time with me. The only issue we were having...I thought..was screaming in the crate.
I took her out to home depot tonight to see her reactions. I thought "oh this is good" when the big automatic doors opened and she stopped but then followed me with no hesitation. She trotted along beside me no problem till the first person walked by her. In fact every person that walked by within about 10 feet she would freeze then avoid.... backing away as much as the leash would allow.
I really didn't expect that. I guess I got a little flustered. (Haven't had much sleep). I ended up kinda half sliding/half quick stepping her out of there. I didn't want to pick her up and reinforce her fear.
In hindsight I think I should have just stopped at a distance from people and given her treats as they passed ?
I walked her around the parking lot for a few minutes. She seemed a little nervous about the few moving cars in the parking lot.
When we got home of course she wouldn't come out of the car. I should say...she wouldn't come towards me and the open door so I could help her down. Finally I just reached in and got her out.
Overall a disaster.
Worried about her reactions and not sure how to proceed ?
She is clearly not as confident as I thought she would be. Am I just doing this all wrong ?
I know you will ask. At home right now really just working on engagement with luring (not with a behavior goal except to get her attention) and play (flirt pole/tug) and basic stuff like her name and pee pee(going out), Home (coming in the house) and just being together.

My instinct is telling me that she needs more bonding and security and focus on me . That maybe it was just too much too soon. But I am worried about how that bodes for the future and how good her nerves really are ? I went through heck with my last dog so maybe I am just over worrying ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You don't think that was a bit much for a puppy you've had two days? Look up the Naughty Dogge blog on socializing properly.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

It was my understanding that a well bred GSD pup with solid nerves should be able to cope with exposure to new situations. We were not greeting anyone or getting close to anyone. I was just a little walk about. My mistake...apparently. I know Reya, Max and Valor all from Carmspack/Fraserglen were able to handle exposure this early in similar situations. 
So I made a mistake. I will take a few steps back with her. Work more on bonding and building success.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

What is your goal with her? Is she a pet or a sport dog? 

I would give her an opportunity to bond with you first. She is just a baby. 

We have two Malinois that we raised from young pups. The first one (now 6.5 years old) was outgoing and bubbly from day one. The second one (she just turned 2) was fearful of people since we got her (she is my current IGP dog). I did have to alter my training/expectations a bit with my second Malinois due to her temperament, but she has turned out to be a great training partner/dog nonetheless.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That’s a lot for an 8 week old puppy, especially one you’ve only had for two days. Give her some time to settle into her new home and get comfortable, and then start slower. Less new stuff all at once. I don’t see any reason why you shouldn’t have just picked her up and taken her out of there.

There’s no rush, take your time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

EgansMom said:


> It was my understanding that a well bred GSD pup with solid nerves should be able to cope with exposure to new situations. We were not greeting anyone or getting close to anyone. I was just a little walk about. My mistake...apparently. I know Reya, Max and Valor all from Carmspack/Fraserglen were able to handle exposure this early in similar situations.
> So I made a mistake. I will take a few steps back with her. Work more on bonding and building success.


Depends on the dog. Maybe next time put her in a cart and let her look around.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Thank you. I do adore her and believe me it was never my intent to frighten her, Lesson learned. Smaller steps. You guys don't need to be cross... I am already feeling terrible for giving her a bad experience. Like the worst parent ever. But I am also way overtired and emotional.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would expect a pup with solid nerves to walk through a HD with me at any age. If it went into avoidance just being close to people, I may reconsider that pup. 

That being said, after the first negative reaction, I would have pulled out and tried again a bit later.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

For me personally, the first week at least is just around the property learning the lay of the land, engagement with me and seeing people and cars and squirrels and planes and rocks and logs from a bit farther away than a HD after 2 days. Nothing to be gained from Home Depot right away imo, you gotta be a family first


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## mattishere (Oct 22, 2020)

edited - removed- no point


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

EgansMom said:


> Thank you. I do adore her and believe me it was never my intent to frighten her, Lesson learned. Smaller steps. You guys don't need to be cross... I am already feeling terrible for giving her a bad experience. Like the worst parent ever. But I am also way overtired and emotional.


You did nothing wrong. Error in judgement, no one is perfect. I'm working at a HD and it's a zoo in there right now! We had a dog fight at the self checkout today. 
Also remember that everything you feel goes right down the leash. So if you are tired, emotional, stressed maybe not a great day for new stuff.
If I had been in that situation I might have distracted her, played for a minute then scooped her up and got the heck out.


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## Max’s Owner (Aug 10, 2020)

I heard my dog’s name...

I am sorry but I would expect a trot through Home Depot from any pup/breed. They may be a little wild on the leash and I wouldn’t expect manners -but.. back peddling away from people :/ 

again any breed ..picked my schip up from breeder and walked through pet friendly book store with him waiting for flight home


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I would expect a pup with solid nerves to walk through a HD with me at any age. If it went into avoidance just being close to people, I may reconsider that pup.
> 
> That being said, after the first negative reaction, I would have pulled out and tried again a bit later.


That is what I meant. It was Sunday night..not busy...no other dogs. Just a handfull of people going about their business at a distance. I really don't know what to make of it. But I need to figure out if this dog is solid somehow.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I picked Valor and Max up in Niagara Falls, hung out at a park off leash with people around. Hung out in the park for a bit. Loaded up and drove 7 hours home. Stopped by 3 rest areas on the way home. Walked by the turnpike with loud traffic, through busy parking lots, walked around tons of people and other dogs. They both came in my house with strange people and dogs just like they owned the place. 3 days after I brought him home, Valor was hanging out with firefighters getting into their turn outs with the lights going on their trucks and radios blaring. You can read my puppy thread for further details.

I expect a well bred dog to go anywhere. If they are startled, that's fine as long as they recover and move on.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

The fist person walking by was carrying something big in their hand...she startled but didn't recover. She moved back to the end of her leash and it took alot of "puppy puppy" call to get her moving. Then rinse and repeat with the next person.
And now she is sleeping on my foot and if this wasn't a "one off" it's going to break my heart.
Would you guys be calling the breeder ? What would you say to her ?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

EgansMom said:


> I need to figure out if this dog is solid somehow.


Seems like you got your answer already, unfortunately. If this was my puppy she'd be returned to the breeder.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

EgansMom said:


> The fist person walking by was carrying something big in their hand...she startled but didn't recover. She moved back to the end of her leash and it took alot of "puppy puppy" call to get her moving. Then rinse and repeat with the next person.


What did you do when she shied?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You’ve got a fearful pup.
You have a serious decision to make.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> What did you do when she shied?


Tried to get her walking (not towards the person) just moving with me with calling and leash pressure.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

EgansMom said:


> Would you guys be calling the breeder ? What would you say to her ?


If you are concerned, then yes, I think you should call the breeder. 

I did when my second Malinois puppy showed fearfulness to people. Breeder was very helpful and offered to take her back or let me return her/give me a refund. After some serious thinking, I decided to keep her. It has been an interesting two years working with her. In hindsight, I am really glad that I kept her. I think it helps that the breeder has been supportive along the way. 

Talk to the breeder, see what your options are first.


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## Max’s Owner (Aug 10, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I picked Valor and Max up in Niagara Falls, hung out at a park off leash with people around. Hung out in the park for a bit. Loaded up and drove 7 hours home. Stopped by 3 rest areas on the way home. Walked by the turnpike with loud traffic, through busy parking lots, walked around tons of people and other dogs. They both came in my house with strange people and dogs just like they owned the place. 3 days after I brought him home, Valor was hanging out with firefighters getting into their turn outs with the lights going on their trucks and radios blaring. You can read my puppy thread for further details.
> 
> I expect a well bred dog to go anywhere. If they are startled, that's fine as long as they recover and move on.


Picked up Max from David loaded him up with my friend and had an AMSL Bitch pup we picked up along the way -a friend purchased to come back down with us.

22 hour drive back down but took our time over 3 days.

Stood at 3 different pet friendly hotels with both dogs -elevators, stairs, restaurants, stopped at lovely breweries, oh and there was a great botanical garden we walked through -trying to recall what else. Was a great trip with solid pups.

Came home to my three other dogs walked in like he owned it. That weekend was my niece’s 3rd birthday party brought him and my other gsd. Kiddos running around, family being a little wild and rocked it. Actually remember giving him a bully stick -he takes it moves right to the center of the room chomping away family “well guess I’ll step over him” Lolol


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Can you give it a few days? Talking to the breeder about your concerns is fine but i think it’s way premature to be thinking about returning her. She’s had a lot of upheaval, leaving her mom and littermates, the only home she’s known, and this experience clearly overwhelmed her. I personally wouldn’t be making a hasty decision quite yet.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

I'm feeling pretty devestated right now. I was really shocked at her reaction to people. Except for crate screaming she was doing great with me, new house, new yard, car rides (a little whining but not bad), she was curious and willing to try new things like stairs and walking over odd objects like cardboard/the lawn umbrella laying down in my yard etc


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Has she reacted to people that way under other circumstances? Or is that the only time you’ve had her out around a bunch of strangers? It’s possible it wasn’t specifically the people, it could have been more generally an overwhelming environment. Once a dog is over threshold (and this is a baby puppy, so even more so) they may react to things that wouldn't be triggers in other, less stressful situations.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

You've had a devastating year, and right now, you're sleep deprived, and disappointed. Tomorrow, can you take her to a quiet park or similar, and do some people watching, from a distance?


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Has she reacted to people that way under other circumstances? Or is that the only time you’ve had her out around a bunch of strangers? It’s possible it wasn’t specifically the people, it could have been more generally an overwhelming environment. Once a dog is over threshold (and this is a baby puppy, so even more so) they may react to things that wouldn't be triggers in other, less stressful situations.


First time exposed to strangers.
I think at the breeders she was only exposed to the breeder and her daughters. In hindsight maybe it was too much . I just thought if she had solid nerves it shouldn't be a big deal.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I actually know how you feel. My first Malinois has a great temperament, solid nerves, and sociable. Unfortunately, she developed severe epilepsy when she was 3.5 and I had to retire her from dog sport. 

It took me almost a year to get a new Malinois, and I wanted a puppy with a similar temperament to my first Malinois. Well, I got the polar opposite. Imagine my surprise. I was so torn between keeping vs returning her the first few months. But hey, it worked out in the end. 

I agree with others. No need to make any decision right now. Give your puppy a little time, give yourself a little time.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It could be something. It could be nothing. It is absolutely a red flag. She could be truly fearful of people or she could just be overwhelmed by every thing going on in Home Depot. It is something you could work on and she may get over. Personally, I’m not willing to deal with fear of people in my own dog. That is never really going to go away, and you’ll be managing it in some capacity for ever. I don’t have a carmspack puppy. He went from his breeders with his littermates he’d never been separated from, to a steer wrangling contest surrounded by people and horses, to an hour ride home in crate when he’d never been crated, to downtown San Diego, to my home with an aggressive male. Not once did he ever cower like this puppy. If he was afraid of people like that, he wouldn’t have made it here. I would take her for a walk in a park and see how she does. If she was still reacting like that to people being close to her, I would be looking for a refund.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EgansMom said:


> First time exposed to strangers.
> I think at the breeders she was only exposed to the breeder and her daughters. In hindsight maybe it was too much.


If it were me, I wouldn’t be making any assumptions quite yet. Give her a break. And don’t beat yourself up. When we know better we do better. Nobody is born with all the knowledge and experience, we all have to learn.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

EgansMom said:


> I'm feeling pretty devestated right now. I was really shocked at her reaction to people. Except for crate screaming she was doing great with me, new house, new yard, car rides (a little whining but not bad), she was curious and willing to try new things like stairs and walking over odd objects like cardboard/the lawn umbrella laying down in my yard etc


That's an awful lot of new things in 48 hours for a brand new puppy. Mental and physical exhaustion for both of you. Reset and slow down a little?


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

I think it was more "overwhelmed by the environment," but I am still not sure that's a good sign. If the few people we encounter at home depot on a Sunday night puts her over the threshold ? I don't know if this has any bearing but she has been going through major crate trauma. She screams for almost an hour each time. I play crate games and lots of treats and good stuff in crate... but we have been struggling and she is probably exhausted and frazzled too.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Stop, take a deep breath, get some rest. 
Try what folks have offered. 
Call the breeder and discuss your concerns. A good breeder should talk to you and help you. 
You have several paths forward. Pick one. Just doing that will help you to feel better. 
Again, get some rest. Tomorrow is another day. Move forward when you are rested and can think more clearly.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EgansMom said:


> I think it was more "overwhelmed by the environment," but I am still not sure that's a good sign. If the few people we encounter at home depot on a Sunday night puts her over the threshold ?


A baby puppy, 8 weeks old, two days into a brand new home? That’s really not too surprising and IMO it’s way too soon to be concerned.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I picked Valor and Max up in Niagara Falls, hung out at a park off leash with people around. Hung out in the park for a bit. Loaded up and drove 7 hours home. Stopped by 3 rest areas on the way home. Walked by the turnpike with loud traffic, through busy parking lots, walked around tons of people and other dogs. They both came in my house with strange people and dogs just like they owned the place. 3 days after I brought him home, Valor was hanging out with firefighters getting into their turn outs with the lights going on their trucks and radios blaring. You can read my puppy thread for further details.
> 
> I expect a well bred dog to go anywhere. If they are startled, that's fine as long as they recover and move on.


Don’t forget that Valor came to me directly from breeders and stayed two days with his big dad, his brother Max (was here for over 2 weeks) and 2 schipperkes who were relentless with him. Katie put the run on him, zero fear. His first night in a crate, change of food to raw. Nothing phased them. He then was dropped off to a trucker he’d never met and delivered to you. ALOT for any puppy to take in but both took in stride like pros.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Saphire said:


> Don’t forget that Valor came to me directly from breeders and stayed two days with his big dad, his brother Max (was here for over 2 weeks) and 2 schipperkes who were relentless with him. Katie put the run on him, zero fear. His first night in a crate, change of food to raw. Nothing phased them. He then was dropped off to a trucker he’d never met and delivered to you. ALOT for any puppy to take in but both took in stride like pros.


Was he crated in a different room alone and did he scream and whine ?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

EgansMom said:


> Was he crated in a different room alone and did he scream and whine ?


He was crated in the living room beside his brother in crate. He whined for a few minutes and that was it. When Max came, he was crated alone as my dogs are no longer crated and same thing, whined for a few minutes and then crashed for the night.
When I brought Gus home, he was crated in rec room furthest from bedrooms. He cried off and on the first night, a little bit the 2nd night and then was quiet after that.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the comparison game..... it’s a slippery slope ppl.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Fodder said:


> the comparison game..... it’s a slippery slope ppl.


I’m not trying to compare, but instead describe what IMO is normal puppy behaviour for me but I can see how it could look that way.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Saphire said:


> I’m not trying to compare, but instead describe what IMO is normal puppy behaviour for me but I can see how it could look that way.


i’ve read all the replies in this thread. it’s a general statement.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

I really don't know what to think yet. ie. just as a little test I had some clean dishes on the table including the big metal breadhook for my stand mixer. I "accidentally" on purpose knocked it to the floor to see Jamies reaction. She ran straight to it to investigate. Like I said... I was shocked at her reaction at HD because she had previously given me no reason to think she was timid.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Saphire said:


> He was crated in the living room beside his brother in crate. He whined for a few minutes and that was it. When Max came, he was crated alone as my dogs are no longer crated and same thing, whined for a few minutes and then crashed for the night.
> When I brought Gus home, he was crated in rec room furthest from bedrooms. He cried off and on the first night, a little bit the 2nd night and then was quiet after that.


I did ask. I don't know how normal it is (for dogs with solid nerves)to scream and howl for up to an hour when crated in a different room at 8wks when she definitely doesn't need to pee or poo and is tired out.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

EgansMom said:


> I did ask. I don't know how normal it is (for dogs with solid nerves)to scream and howl for up to an hour when crated in a different room at 8wks when she definitely doesn't need to pee or poo and is tired out.


I don’t know that crying in crate at first is an indicator of weak nerves. Gus cried a lot more than max and Valor and he is solid.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

EgansMom said:


> It was my understanding that a well bred GSD pup with solid nerves should be able to cope with exposure to new situations. We were not greeting anyone or getting close to anyone. I was just a little walk about. My mistake...apparently. I know Reya, Max and Valor all from Carmspack/Fraserglen were able to handle exposure this early in similar situations.
> So I made a mistake. I will take a few steps back with her. Work more on bonding and building success.


I think you misunderstand. Your puppy's behavior is perfectly normal for the breed. This breed is about protecting, guarding, discernment, and situational awareness. Your pup is showing classic GSD temperament. Today's "sport " and "prey" dogs are bred to be far more social and high threshold which isn't always conducive to proper adult temperament. The GSD was never intended to be a Lab or a Golden or unbelievably to be easily stolen. Just read up on proper exposure. Jax08 gave you an excellent link. 

I do not know what your intention is for this pup but as someone that has owned my share of both types, count your blessings. There will be far less to teach this pup than an overly social dog that is not exhibiting discernment or other desired traits. Good nerves is about the ability to recover, not about not reacting in the first place.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Miika never seemed to be afraid of anything but HATED being put in a crate as a puppy. Yes, we are way past that now. 

I still think you should just stop for tonight and get some rest. Nothing is going to be “fixed” tonight and it seems you are just getting more wound up. 
Get some rest and start afresh tomorrow.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EgansMom said:


> I don't know how normal it is (for dogs with solid nerves)to scream and howl for up to an hour when crated in a different room at 8wks when she definitely doesn't need to pee or poo and is tired out.


Not in the slightest bit abnormal, actually. We crate puppies in the bedroom with us at night. Being with us is way less stressful for a baby puppy than being separated in another room. Our 6 GSDs over the past 36 years have varied from sleeping through the night from the very beginning to fussing awhile for weeks and waking us up for potty breaks once or twice a night for a month or more. They have ranged from 9 weeks to 20 weeks old at the time we got them. All of that is “normal”. While sometimes inconvenient, none if it is at all concerning or in any way indicative of temperament issues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If she was older than 8 weeks, it might be even more important to give her time to settle into her new home before taking her out. But certainly at eight weeks, it takes a couple of days to get over the loss of her dam and littermates and to get used to the new owners. There are pups out there that have more confidence out of the gate, and these can be the toughest pups to actually own, because they are fearless and if their owner isn't the bomb when it comes to leadership, they may just think they should make their own decisions and in young dogs those may not be so good. They may decide they do not like to be touched in certain places. they may decide a vet or non-family member has no business doing anything to them. 

I have another question though. It is not good to take an 8 week old pup to a pet store or anywhere that there is high volume dog traffic, because, while it may have had a set of shots, the pup is likely not protected from devastating diseases, depending on when the dam's immunity runs out, and when the shots were given. So your choice of home-depot was certainly better than pet store, but your pup isn't house broken yet. What if it peed on the floor in there? They can just clean it up? I mean that is why non-pet oriented businesses are less than hospitable to pets. People bring dogs that have no business being there, let them make messes or bother customers. 

The first week of a pup's life, they are getting enough new material to just settle into your home's rhythm and learn the people that live there and come regularly, change of food, trying to sleep by themselves and so forth. After the dog is house trained and is unlikely to run up to strangers or bark at them, taking them to places that they are unlikely to meet other dogs could be a good idea. 

And, you can have a pup that is naturally on the shy side. Normally, they do feed on our confidence levels. So if we are confident and ignore behavior that we do not want, and praise behavior we do want, and ensure that we remain confident/stable throughout any excursion, And we do not overwhelm the puppy, stop before the puppy shows signs of distress, most dogs that are a little shy can make excellent pets.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Good nerves is about the ability to recover, not about not reacting in the first place.


I will check the suggested site. I was just worried because she didn't recover. I thought she was showing fear and avoidance.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Humans are shy. I didn't ask the breeder for a "shy" dog. I asked for a dog with solid nerves who I could take anywhere and do anything with. Who had a high level of discernment and was not trigger happy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know, if you take two puppies away from a litter, they get their confidence from each other, and it isn't fair to compare them to a single puppy who is stripped of dam and littermates. A puppy knowns nothing but his dam and littermates and the people that occasionally are there. He is NEVER alone. He is totally dependent on the litter, even if the dam has been removed by eight weeks. Taking a pup in its litter to the vet, is almost no stress at all. Because the other puppies are there. Even if it is just one. Remove that one, and the pup has to totally rely on itself and this person it hasn't decided yet is trustworthy. Crying and distress is NORMAL. The pup has lost its whole world, and now it has to rely on itself and it will get a burst of confidence, but its first response and it can last a couple days, is to be distressed. And that two pups can be take anywhere and be super stable doesn't mean anything. Then separating the last two for their separate homes, that may be fine because the pup has already left the majority of the pups behind, and didn't die. Now if the pup is added to another family with dogs, he can quickly find his place in his new "litter." A pup all alone is a different story.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Not in the slightest bit abnormal, actually. We crate puppies in the bedroom with us at night. Being with us is way less stressful for a baby puppy than being separated in another room. Our 6 GSDs over the past 36 years have varied from sleeping through the night from the very beginning to fussing awhile for weeks and waking us up for potty breaks once or twice a night for a month or more. They have ranged from 9 weeks to 20 weeks old at the time we got them. All of that is “normal”. While sometimes inconvenient, none if it is at all concerning or in any way indicative of temperament issues.


I did email the breeder about her wailing in the crate. I did have one crate downstairs and one in my bedroom but she advised this : 
"well yes that is normal for the first few days, but she has to get used to ,
maybe put a towel over the crate, I would also not necessary have her in your
bedroom. This will make her even more attached to you. She will learn but that
will take a few days or first week."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

EgansMom said:


> Humans are shy. I didn't ask the breeder for a "shy" dog. I asked for a dog with solid nerves who I could take anywhere and do anything with. Who had a high level of discernment and was not trigger happy.


Yeah well, there are shy dogs too, and you don't always know who is going to be shy when the pup is 8 weeks, because that pup isn't necessarily going to show shyness in the litter where things are normal for the puppy. One would have to take each pup out of its comfort zone, away from its people and see how it responds. And even then pups can be one way today and another way tomorrow. I have had litters tested at 49 days by someone other than me, and we went somewhere the pups were not familiar with. If you have someone who can test the litter for you, this can be valuable information. 

If you are that concerned about this baby, maybe it is best to take it back. It may be better to get an adult dog first and work with that for a while and then bring in a puppy. I do think puppies do better in homes where there is an adult dog installed already.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

selzer said:


> Yeah well, there are shy dogs too, and you don't always know who is going to be shy when the pup is 8 weeks, because that pup isn't necessarily going to show shyness in the litter where things are normal for the puppy. One would have to take each pup out of its comfort zone, away from its people and see how it responds. And even then pups can be one way today and another way tomorrow. I have had litters tested at 49 days by someone other than me, and we went somewhere the pups were not familiar with. If you have someone who can test the litter for you, this can be valuable information.
> 
> If you are that concerned about this baby, maybe it is best to take it back. It may be better to get an adult dog first and work with that for a while and then bring in a puppy. I do think puppies do better in homes where there is an adult dog installed already.


Perhaps I'm not understanding you. Are you saying shyness is something different than "nerves" ? Is this shyness more of an environmental and possibly transient thing as opposed to having genetically weak nerves ?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

EgansMom said:


> I will check the suggested site. I was just worried because she didn't recover. I thought she was showing fear and avoidance.


Another way to look at it would be to consider what you would have expected her to do if she saw a snake in your yard. If she refused to approach and investigate, would you still call it fear and avoidance? Or self preservation? Drives are all about the survival of the specimen to ensure the survival of the species.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Another way to look at it would be to consider what you would have expected her to do if she saw a snake in your yard. If she refused to approach and investigate, would you still call it fear and avoidance? Or self preservation? Drives are all about the survival of the specimen to ensure the survival of the species.


Wow, I like how you explained that. In that case I would call her a smart cookie.
Do you think her reaction was just because she is little and therefore "self preserving" and not necessarily an indicator of things to come ?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EgansMom said:


> ...”I would also not necessary have her in your
> bedroom. This will make her even more attached to you.”


Or, it will help her bond with you. That’s a good thing. I want my dogs to be attached to me. I want my puppies to know they can rely on me to protect them, to keep them safe while they grow and mature and learn to navigate the world. That we’re a team. That doesn’t mean they will not be resilient or will lack confidence. It means we’ll have a strong relationship based on mutual trust and respect.

What i can tell you from being a member since March 2003 and a moderator since November 2005 is that every time someone has come here asking how to get their puppy to settle down and sleep all night in another room and numerous people suggest they crate the puppy in the bedroom instead, often to great resistance, every single time those people decide to give it a try, it works. With no negative issues.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

EgansMom said:


> Wow, I like how you explained that. In that case I would call her a smart cookie.
> Do you think her reaction was just because she is little and therefore "self preserving" and not necessarily an indicator of things to come ?


It's hard to say without knowing more about her and her pedigree but with the limited information given, the answer is yes, with proper exposure. That in and of itself will be more important than any training. Put supreme focus on exposure and bonding right now. 

I have not read all of the posts here but read something about the puppy crying when crated in another room? The puppy should be with its pack at this age. You have removed the puppy from its safety so you must step in and replace it. In nature at this age, alone means dead. Think self preservation.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Or, it will help her bond with you. That’s a good thing. I want my dogs to be attached to me. I want my puppies to know they can rely on me to protect them, to keep them safe while they grow and mature and learn to navigate the world. That we’re a team. That doesn’t mean they will not be resilient or will lack confidence. It means we’ll have a strong relationship based on mutual trust and respect.
> 
> What i can tell you from being a member since March 2003 and a moderator since November 2005 is that every time someone has come here asking how to get their puppy to settle down and sleep all night in another room and numerous people suggest they crate the puppy in the bedroom instead, often to great resistance, every single time those people decide to give it a try, it works. With no negative issues.


I have no problem sleeping with her crated beside my bed or even right in bed ....but I do need her to be able to spend time alone in her crate in another room without screaming as I work from home and having her right beside me is not an option at those times (client consultations). Nor is having her screaming at the top of her lungs if I am trying to speak with a client.
. So I wasn't sure if having her sleep in the crate beside my bed at night would make those other times when she needs to be crated in another room worse or better.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's hard to say without knowing more about her and her pedigree but with the limited information given, the answer is yes, with proper exposure. That in and of itself will be more important than any training. Put supreme focus on exposure and bonding right now.
> 
> I have not read all of the posts here but read something about the puppy crying when crated in another room? The puppy should be with its pack at this age. You have removed the puppy from its safety so you must step in and replace it. In nature at this age, alone means dead. Think self preservation.


Dam Hakova von Wendelin
Sire Egon z Ditčina dvora
To the second part...
I have no problem sleeping with her crated beside my bed or even right in bed ....but I do need her to be able to spend time alone in her crate in another room without screaming as I work from home and having her right beside me is not an option at those times (client consultations). Nor is having her screaming at the top of her lungs if I am trying to speak with a client.
. So I wasn't sure if having her sleep in the crate beside my bed at night would make those other times when she needs to be crated in another room worse or better.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would give it some time and introduced her slowly to situations to see how she reacts.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP, I know of a breeder that had a couple of litters by Zako Max. It seems that he is known for producing pups like yours. Last I heard they responded well to exposure. If I think about it, I will ask him how those pups turned out as adults.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

EgansMom said:


> Perhaps I'm not understanding you. Are you saying shyness is something different than "nerves" ? Is this shyness more of an environmental and possibly transient thing as opposed to having genetically weak nerves ?


It's a good question actually. Nerves are genetic, probably for the most part. I think studies have been done where the dam was nervous, and the pups were removed from her and raised by a confident dam and the pups were still nervous. A bitch provides 50% of the genes to each pup, and then she imprints the litter. Some people believe the imprinting begins before the puppies are born. 

Puppies do not come out of the uterine horns shy. The come out as little barnicles who all vie for the teets. Some are physically weaker. None are shy. The eyes open, the feet begin to walk, and about a week later, the really get into their littermates. In the following 5 weeks, they learn canine body language, human touch and facial expressions, bite inhibition. They will climb on top of less dominant puppies, and the next day those puppies may climb on top of them. They sleep together in a pile if they are cold from the beginning and separate if they are warm. I think as they get older in the litter, may still pile together for comfort as much as warmth. 

7 weeks seems to be an ideal time to separate each pup briefly and run a series of temperament tests on them. The pup's will act totally different in these tests if the breeder does them with or without the rest of the litter present, than if a stranger does them. We do not always have a stranger to do this. Think about it, if someone the pup knew from birth and the dam is completely trusting with, why would the puppy worry at all if they are lifted a few feet into the air? 

Can the puppy respond differently to someone who is doing this for the first time, or to someone who has don it 70 times? I think dogs do feed off our emotions, and they will often gravitate toward the most stable in a household. Many will act perfectly calm with the male owner, and be a basket case with the female. So yeah, I suppose some of it is nurture over nature.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm going to suggest that one possibility to her reaction could have been situational to the strangers body language and emotional states. it is often stated that if a handler is stressed, tense, unsure, lacks confidence it will travel down the leash. It can work both ways. Dogs, even young pups, can sense and smell the things and people around them. It's covid and people in general have tense body languages when they are out in public. Everyone is thinking stay distanced, don't get to close to anyone and don't let them get close to me. So even though you were distanced it doesn't mean the other people weren't feeling anxiety about being in the store themselves and giving off strong stress odor your pup with a much better nose then us human could smell and sense. It's just a thought, something to consider. These are trying times and many people really are anxious, stressed and nervous when they are out places. 
I can't tell you if this is a sign of problems down the road or not. But I would rest, regroup and give it another try with a different setting. Like others have suggested, maybe outside where strangers are likely to be more relaxed themselves.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Springbrz said:


> I'm going to suggest that one possibility to her reaction could have been situational to the strangers body language and emotional states. it is often stated that if a handler is stressed, tense, unsure, lacks confidence it will travel down the leash. It can work both ways. Dogs, even young pups, can sense and smell the things and people around them. It's covid and people in general have tense body languages when they are out in public. Everyone is thinking stay distanced, don't get to close to anyone and don't let them get close to me. So even though you were distanced it doesn't mean the other people weren't feeling anxiety about being in the store themselves and giving off strong stress odor your pup with a much better nose then us human could smell and sense. It's just a thought, something to consider. These are trying times and many people really are anxious, stressed and nervous when they are out places.
> I can't tell you if this is a sign of problems down the road or not. But I would rest, regroup and give it another try with a different setting. Like others have suggested, maybe outside where strangers are likely to be more relaxed themselves.


Dogs do not rely on sight as much as humans, but facial expressions they do note, and I wonder what masks are doing to pups. I found that I had to train myself to smile before calling Babs to me in Obedience to get her to run right in and sit in front. They read our faces.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

I think you should contact your breeder for some advice on the situation, 
I will say this though my older GSD Clay was like this as a 9 week old puppy...he never out grew it and it actually became worse then better now he's definitely manageable he didn't come from a reputable breeder though...
raising a fearful dog is a lot of heartache and but very rewarding that being said I wouldn't whant to do it again,
It's the reason I returned a pup before I got Raven. 

I took her Raven into [email protected] not long after we got her I couldn't keep her from saying hello to everyone! We broke all the coronavirus rules that day (woops)

Whatever you decide wishing you all the best x


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP, I know of a breeder that had a couple of litters by Zako Max. It seems that he is known for producing pups like yours. Last I heard they responded well to exposure. If I think about it, I will ask him how those pups turned out as adults.


I would very much appreciate that.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Well it's 4am and still no sleep. Put her in the kennel beside my bed. No whining in that one but she was flipping and flopping and panting so out to pee and now she is sound asleep on the couch beside me. No fussing at all.
I'm baffled by the HD incident. I took her because I thought she could handle it. She handled a car ride (almost 2hr) home , car door opening and closing right beside her, big wooden gate to get in my yard, stairs, objects in yard, banging dishes,dishwasher, loud tv, swinging outdoor swing, tossing flat cardboard box/walking on it etc with not a flinch and healthy curiosity. If she was slightly startled she recovered immediately and charged forward to check it out.
At HD she was fine in the parking lot despite some cars and folks, She was a little surprised when the automatic doors opened but recovered immediately and trotted along with me in a cheerful and curious way. We walked almost to the end of one aisle and a guy walked across the aisle at the end. He walked briskly and he was kind of swinging his arms. He had some kind of tool or something in the arm closest to Jaimie. This was maybe 8ft away. I suspect he was in a rush since it was almost closing. That was when she back peddled. Everything after that ie. couple walking by, lady with a cart compounded it. (She had seen a couple people with carts before we went in and wasn't phased). I wish I had picked her up and left at that point. I honestly thought I wasn't supposed to do that. That "coddling" a fear would reinforce it.
I hate that she didn't want to come out of the car when we got home. After I scooped her out of the car we played "chase the branch" in the yard so she doesn't think only bad stuff happens when you leave the car.
That is as precisely as I remember it. Maybe you guys see something I don't.
For what it's worth when I met her she warmed up to me immediately and was super lovey when I held her...and I was a stranger in a big winter jacket....of course she was on home turf.
I really don't know where to take her today to people watch that doesn't have a lot of dogs. It's not even super safe to hang out in the front yard because there are a lot of dogs in the neighborhood and people think it's okay to let them walk on and crap on your lawn. At least they pick it up.

As for her needing to be alone in her kennel at times for an hour or two.... it is simply a matter of there are times I need to work. I'm talking maybe 2 hrs a day when she needs to be on her own and not screaming. I am alone with her. I have no living family, no close friends and no one who can watch her. It's just me and Jaimie.
So it's nothing to do with being uptight about dogs in the bedroom or whatever. My past dogs slept in bed with me and on the couch with me and were a part of everything I did. I would love to just be close to Jaimie 24/7 but the reality is that I need to pay rent , bills and feed us. And the breeder basically said that having her sleep in a kennel beside me will make it harder those times when she needs to be alone.
I am going to test today if she does better just loose in the downstairs bathroom with her cage just open and her toys in there. I have one in downstairs bathroom and one upstairs in my bedroom.
They are both 32"wide X 42" long X 32" high.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Not sure why you seem to be confusing her amazing environmental sureness with her reluctance as a new and tiny baby dog toward a huge strange adult man rushing around. I would think something was wrong with a GSD puppy if that did not concern them. She is not a Lab or a Golden. Breed matters, it's called the genetics of behavior. Poppies are not blank alates.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure why you seem to be confusing her amazing environmental sureness with her reluctance as a new and tiny baby dog toward a huge strange adult man rushing around. I would think something was wrong with a GSD puppy if that did not concern them. She is not a Lab or a Golden. Breed matters, it's called the genetics of behavior. Poppies are not blank alates.


Because I have been following the Fraserglen/Carmspack Max and Valor and thought that was what a solid genetic representation of the breed was supposed to present like. Those dogs don't seem to be frightened of much of anything.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I really thought those were the characteristics I'm supposed to be looking for.
Honestly, I would be thrilled to hear it's all ok with her. I adore the little crate demon !
I think part of it is also that my last dog genuinely was byb poorly bred and very fear reactive and as much as I loved him it was not an experience I ever care to repeat. So perhaps reading too much into this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Have you read why David Winners chose that litter?


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have you read why David Winners chose that litter?


I know he always says he likes a "challenge" . 
To be honest after the last 11yrs I just wasn't up to difficult again. 
My last guy was very fear aggressive and needed tons of management.
I wanted a pup who could grow up to be calmly confident but not constantly challenging and pushy.
A thinker with situational discernment but who if there was ever a real threat would step up.
A companion and partner in anything we do. I wasn't looking for a sport dog. 
Just a smart cookie who was loving and had confidence but didn't need to make a show of it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Not up to difficult? Your pup's pedigree screams difficult. 

I wouldn't have looked at that litter for sport either.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

And I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I just genuinely got worried that it may turn into a situation of dealing with reactivity like I lived through with Egan.
Really I was and am proud of how well my little girl is doing overall.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not up to difficult? Your pup's pedigree screams difficult.
> 
> I wouldn't have looked at that litter for sport either.


I was very clear and detailed with Christina and she felt this pup was a match. 
Difficult in what way do you see in the pedigree ?
My idea of difficult may not be the same.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Both sides of your dog's pedigree are loaded with dogs that produce strong real work dogs. Decoys respected Zako Max. Not saying he couldn't and did not produce pups that were what you wanted, just saying why would you expect it from a dog like him? Lots of serious dogs in that pedigree. Zako was used in LE programs as were other dogs close up.


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

Perhaps next time you could try waiting outside for awhile giving Jamie the opportunity to observe all the foot traffic and see that we are not a threat. It's my understanding that puppies that are handled early/often by humans are more social.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Both sides of your dog's pedigree are loaded with dogs that produce strong real work dogs. Decoys respected Zako Max. Not saying he couldn't and did not produce pups that were what you wanted, just saying why would you expect it from a dog like him? Lots of serious dogs in that pedigree. Zako was used in LE programs as were other dogs close up.


But when these dogs are well bred and balanced and have situational discernment, I assume that means a dog who does not "go off" in an over reactive way.
I spent the last 11 yrs managing a dog who did have a hairpin trigger and in situations that a normal dog would have been on alert about, he reacted aggressively as if his life was in imminent danger. He was the worst combo of high drive and weak nerves. A byb genetic mess. He was difficult. It was exhausting and took alot of work but his last years were pretty stable and good.
As far as I understand ...a dog being civil does not mean fear reactive or that they over react and go off when they should not ? It just means they have the balls to step up to the plate in the face of a real threat.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding ?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am not sure that I understand your question. Are you comparing LE prospects to calm, biddable pets of a more moderate drive?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

A civil dog is one that will bite for real. A sharp dog is one that is quick to bite. A sharp dog can be very forward, social aggressive, a very territorial dog, a defensive dog with low thresholds, or a fear biter. It’s not about the motivation to bite necessarily, but how quick they are to bite. A lot of lines I’ve seen that produce sharp digs can also produce nervy dogs. A dog doesn’t need to be sharp to be civil.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

My first girl was calm, confident and a great family dog who would have ripped anyone's throat out for real if they tried to hurt me. And not out of fear reactivity but she had the stuff. That said she would have totally washed out of LE. Not drivey enough just day to day. I'm exhausted and perhaps not phrasing well. But maybe it's not always one extreme or the other ? I have to believe Christina saw what I was looking for (a girl much like my first one) in this pup.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> A civil dog is one that will bite for real. A sharp dog is one that is quick to bite. A sharp dog can be very forward, social aggressive, a very territorial dog, a defensive dog with low thresholds, or a fear biter. It’s not about the motivation to bite necessarily, but how quick they are to bite. A lot of lines I’ve seen that produce sharp digs can also produce nervy dogs. A dog doesn’t need to be sharp to be civil.


Thank you. Great explanation. I can handle civil but I had made it clear to Christina that I didn't want "sharp".


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

Maybe she was just unsure on that particular day,

It's strange when you go from a reactive dog to one that's not it's hard to relax sometimes you see things that just aren't there and that if you had never had a dog with temperament problems you probably wouldn't be so sensitive to some behaviours that your current pup is showing,
so maybe try and relax a bit move on from what happened and start anew.

And I know it's hard but try not to compare your pup to other's everyone is an individual with their own personality...


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

EgansMom said:


> My first girl was calm, confident and a great family dog who would have ripped anyone's throat out for real if they tried to hurt me. And not out of fear reactivity but she had the stuff. That said she would have totally washed out of LE. Not drivey enough just day to day. I'm exhausted and perhaps not phrasing well. But maybe it's not always one extreme or the other ? I have to believe Christina saw what I was looking for (a girl much like my first one) in this pup.


As per bearshandlers explanation... My first girl wasn't sharp. Very discerning, not over reactive... but if she ever did bite ..it would be warranted and for real. Worst she did was a very serious full teeth bared snarl one night telling some creepy dude to leave me alone. She didn't make a big show of it but she was dead serious and that was his one warning and he bugged off ! I can't explain it but the tone in her snarl wasn't fear or reactivity she was quite serious. 
That was exactly what I was trying to say. That I don't think civil has to mean sharp.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I could be wrong since I’m not going out and evaluating hundreds of puppies, but the characteristics of sharp and civil aren’t easy to see at 8 weeks. You can infer how they will be based on the pedigree, but I don’t think you can tell from puppy to puppy at that age. I think you can look for confident, outgoing puppies and reduce the chances of them being sharp since you could reasonably expect them to not have some of the motivations of some sharp dogs(fear aggression.)


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## Max’s Owner (Aug 10, 2020)

Fodder said:


> the comparison game..... it’s a slippery slope ppl.


No. Concrete examples. Draw own conclusions - - as a general statement.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This isn't the reaction I expect to see in a dog I like. I like forward dogs, so the reaction I would like to see to the fast walking guy would be observation or the pup moving forward and barking. 

We were on vacation in Myrtle Beach. We took the dogs to the boardwalk. First time Valor was around a crowd like that. He was excited and a little rammy on the leash but I expected that. He suddenly reacted to a guy that had huge flowers behind his ears. He was also drunk and yelling in a fun way. Full beard. Big guy. Valor was barking at the end of the leash. Full warning bark. Frustrated and trying to move forward to the guy. Flower guy was really nice and sat down on his chair while we worked it out. It took about 30 seconds for Valor to calm down. He checked him out from all sides before deciding he wasn't a threat. He then moved in and made friends. Granted, Valor was 16 weeks at this time.

I would contact the breeder and see what she says.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Send the breeder some video of her insecurity. I agree with David in that you should not see the behavior you described in a pup with good temperament regardless how little time you have had her. Better to get a replacement now before getting too attached. Nerve issues are the hardest to fix if at all fixable.


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

I would call the breeder as well. I would hope to see more confidence around people in that scenario personally. I did notice in the video of the litter posted, she appeared unsure of the cone when it was thrown around and then avoided it, although members with more experience may view it differently. You have a lot of great advice on here I guess it comes down to what the breeder says and what you feel you are comfortable with. Sorry you’re having to go through this.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm not real bright, and I've worked with far more bad dogs then good. So take my opinion for what it's worth. 
I don't like flooding pups, I take them out but I carry them a lot and try to ease them into things. What you described would not bother me. Because so far she has been stable with everything else. And I'm not sure her reaction was wrong. You are emotional and overwrought, and I think you may be over reacting. She had a bad day, move on.
I don't agree with isolating her in another room in her crate. I often crate pups, since I use the crates to help with house training but I keep them near and especially at night. She slept on the couch with you, so why not in bed with you.
Call the breeder by all means but first relax.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

EgansMom said:


> So Jaimie has been home for a couple of days just spending tons of time with me. The only issue we were having...I thought..was screaming in the crate.
> I took her out to home depot tonight to see her reactions. I thought "oh this is good" when the big automatic doors opened and she stopped but then followed me with no hesitation. She trotted along beside me no problem till the first person walked by her. In fact every person that walked by within about 10 feet she would freeze then avoid.... backing away as much as the leash would allow.
> I really didn't expect that. I guess I got a little flustered. (Haven't had much sleep). I ended up kinda half sliding/half quick stepping her out of there. I didn't want to pick her up and reinforce her fear.
> In hindsight I think I should have just stopped at a distance from people and given her treats as they passed ?
> ...


Here is an article about socialization, and there is a bit about a very fearful pup.








More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar


She stood atop of the massive metal bleachers, her puppy triumphantly standing on one of the rows, as she called down to me. “Aren’t you going to socialize your puppy?” she asked. “I’m good.” I said with a smile. “I’m going to work on engagement down here.” She looked perplexed. As if I had just […]




www.collared-scholar.com





The behavior would concern me in a pup from a reputable breeder. It would definitely make me consider returning the puppy.

Talk to your breeder and even look into an experienced trainer who can assess your pup and help you work through this.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

EgansMom said:


> I wish I had picked her up and left at that point. I honestly thought I wasn't supposed to do that. That "coddling" a fear would reinforce it.


I've heard that before too, and I completely disagree. Socialization should be a positive experience, if it's not it's doing more harm than good. I agree with letting a puppy quietly observe new things from a distance at first. If you're going to take her into a store, put her in the cart and don't let people fawn all over her. The second she starts to show stress, leave. You haven't had time to establish a relationship with her yet and basically went from zero to advanced, completely bypassing all the remedial steps in between.

Someone else mentioned "flooding", and basically that's what this experience was. It's not a technique I'm fond of in general, with puppies or adult dogs. Some pups might be absolutely fine with it - Halo was an extremely confident puppy and I did throw as many new experiences at her as I could because she was clearly showing me she was up for a challenge and wasn't bothered by it. She came home at 10 weeks old and everywhere she went it was like she owned the joint. But I wouldn't expect every puppy to have that level of cocky confidence and I'd rather let the dog show me what s/he is comfortable with and work from there. "Should" isn't part of the equation for me. Also, what I'd expect from a 3 or 4 or 5 month old puppy is different than what I'd expect from an 8 week old puppy who has only known me for two days.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

EgansMom said:


> That was exactly what I was trying to say. That I don't think civil has to mean sharp.


You are correct. A civil dog does not need to be sharp to be civil and a sharp dog is not necessarily civil. And there are varying degrees of sharpness that run the spectrum of suspicious to flat out fear aggressive depending on the nerve strength of the dog.

I totally agree that a puppy should be forward. I have no problem with a puppy being scared of something but they need to be able to recover. If you had picked her up and let her observe her new world safely, you may have gotten a different reaction. Did you look up the Naughty Dogge blog on socializing that I suggested above?

I do not expect my puppies to not react to things they've never seen before in situations they've never been. If they don't, GREAT. If they do, we work thru it. If you work on it and they still can't recover, then there is an problem. Just show them there is not an issue. I would imagine that once her brain fell out the first time and the monsters carrying weird things continued to come at her, your day was already over.

Soooo....
Pick them up and go talk to the people.
Pick them up and let them sniff the cart and see it move.
Pick them up and let them watch the cars in the parking lot.
***Quite often the key to anything they reacted to was me just going over and touching it. That seemed to signify to them that it was safe.

Or you may not have gotten a different reaction. For me, it's not the reaction but the recovery that is important. 

So don't compare your puppy to other puppies. I know things about kennels, that are recommended on here all the time, that is kept hidden in the shadows. All kennels have their faults. Just concentrate on your puppy, socializing her at her speed, and call your breeder to discuss this behavior.

Just remember - socializing is letting them explore their world safely.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Keeping a pup that young at home during the first week is enough socialization to handle for her since everything is new. I would not be initially worried because she was thrown in the deep end as sensitive pup.
OP, please do not be offended or feel guilty. How is your relationship with the breeder? Do you have a contract? Have you observed the litter before you took your pup home? What has the breeder d done in working with the pups ?
I would give the breeder a heads-up and tell her that you are going to keep an open mind about keeping the pup but will work on it for two weeks and then decide. I would be worried when she would be afraid of a person showing up in your home and not recover from it. Difficult in Covid times but that would be my true test. Sure there are strong pups who can handle everything at this age but they may not be the easiest as an average pet dog. Your puppy hasn't had the time to know that she could always rely on you, which would have made it easier to handle HD. So that's done now and I would work on that and yes, take baby steps to increase her confidence. Lots of play at home, puppy training and gentle outings. Let her see people from a distance. You can take her back to HD but stay in your car with her, let her see it from a safe spot for a few minutes. Then walk her in the parking lot away from noisy car doors, people loading big stuff etc, for only a new minutes (do not go inside!) and go home, feed her, potty her and then crate time to digest the experience.
Realize that if she remains fearful you will have a fearful adult GSD next year, which won't be easy for the next 13 or so years.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

On the night crate whining issue I have always done it backwards from what most say whether good or bad. Rather than bring the pup and crate into my room, I bring myself to sleep by the crate in the pups room. First night we sleep in front of the crate with the door open and something from their 'previous home' inside, work slowly night by night, to getting to door closed and slowly moving further from the crate until I finally can sleep in my own bed again.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

One more thing, Valor and Max had each other, and an adult dog, and a really experienced and confident handler. 
I love the way David handles things, but I am not so certain that the average dog owner has his ability and expertise. I know I don't.
Stop beating yourself up.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Do you have friends in your local network that are legitimately dog savvy? Drop by a park or somewhere novel and let them watch how your puppy acts. Someone that understands German Shepherds, but isn't trying to sell you anything, or nurse a grudge against your breeder, will just give you their insight. 

Try not to assign labels to this 8 week old puppy just yet. If you are _looking _for reactivity, all you'll see is reactivity. If you're _looking _for shyness, you'll see shyness in everything.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Speaking from a position of ignorance, I'm frankly blown away at the various recommendation to return an 8 week old puppy to the breeder simply because she wasn't overly confident in a massive big box store days after being ripped away from her mother and litter mates, accompanied by a new human who hasn't taken the time to establish a new relationship as partner and protector yet and plans to keep the dog as a simple companion pet. With an owner personality that as far as I've seen, would potentially be a disaster with an overly confident/pushy dog.

I get why David wouldn't want it preferably, but the OP sure wouldn't want David's dog either; she would have entirely different and more dangerous issues to bring here imo. I just don't get the idea that a dog a little over whelmed at 8 weeks suddenly is guaranteed to be a fearful adult. 

Talk to the breeder sure, but take a breath and take a few days. There are tons of degrees of socialization and exposure this side of a big box store at 8 weeks....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't think this behavior guarantees anything, good or bad. It's just information. More information is better than less. I would talk to the breeder and see what she recommends.

I believe that the OP wouldn't do well with Valor. He's a bit much and takes the right kind of leadership. 

This isn't behavior I would expect from any puppy though. I agree that once the dog showed avoidance, continuing on was just flooding and was not productive.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It’s ok for puppies to be scared of new experiences. It’s ok for puppies that get overwhelmed with stimulation they fear to shut down. It’s been said multiple times, the dog could be fine, or it could be something. I don’t have some expectation that an 8 week old puppy should go gaga over every person they see and be looking for pets. I will say however, that the last thing I want to see from any dog I buy at any age, 6 weeks the youngest I’ve gotten and 7 years being the oldest, is such fear of a person that they run and hide and shut down. That is not a dog I want to deal with. I believe it’s perfectly reasonable to expect a young puppy to be comfortable around new people. That is the worst possible reaction I want to see. If you love a dog and want to work through it that’s one thing. If bear developed fear issues with people tomorrow, I would absolutely do everything in my power to work through it. I’ve had him for over two years. He’s not a brand new dog I’m bringing into my home, especially for good money. There is a lot going on in Home Depot, and it involves more than just people, so that may not have been the issue. I would absolutely take her somewhere calmer where people could pass by her, within the bubble she set at Home Depot to see the reaction. It may very well change. I would also expect it to. I’m not going to spin having a dog that is fearful of people as a good thing. I don’t think it is. There’s a difference between aloof, not wanting to be pet, and flat out terrified. If I bought a puppy who was consistently reacting like that, I would send it back, before I became to attached.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

For me a pup should be able to handle this situation without fear or backing away and be able to recover quickly. Seems your pup still was fearful when you got home. 
sounds like she needs lots of exposure in small increments and not so close to what she is afraid of.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I know things about kennels, that are recommended on here all the time, that is kept hidden in the shadows. All kennels have their faults.


I don’t think anyone here is blaming the breeder. Every breeder at some point is going to have a less than stellar puppy. There does need to be honest dialogue about the dog you have with them and when that dog isn’t a good fit.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I’m not going to spin having a dog that is fearful of people as a good thing. I don’t think it is. There’s a difference between aloof, not wanting to be pet, and flat out terrified. If I bought a puppy who was consistently reacting like that, I would send it back, before I became to attached.


100% agree with this. I'm just not sure this wasn't just a one of everyone's having a crap day response. I agree it wouldn't be my expectation from a well bred dog, but I would want to see it more then once before I gave up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think anyone here is blaming the breeder. Every breeder at some point is going to have a less than stellar puppy. There does need to be honest dialogue about the dog you have with them and when that dog isn’t a good fit.


First, I never thought anyone was blaming the breeder. Which if my comment had been kept with the rest of what I said, instead of being isolated and taken out of context, it should be clear.  And I also said at least twice to contact the breeder

Just for reference to keep what I said in context so others don't get stuck on the first sentence of what you quoted above - 
"*So don't compare your puppy to other puppies.* I know things about kennels, that are recommended on here all the time, that is kept hidden in the shadows. *All kennels have their faults*. Just concentrate on your puppy, socializing her at her speed, and *call your breeder to discuss this behavior.* "

To clarify - I was not singling out any kennel referenced in this thread. it was a general statement. I also stated that if the puppy could not recover when properly introduced that it was a problem - in this same post.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> One more thing, Valor and Max had each other,


Max left a couple of weeks before Valor.
Valor joined him at Sapphire’s later. They only “had each other” for a few hours.
I am looking at the obvious reason why a puppy may be fearful of people. OP knows, too, and no amount of “maybe it’s this or maybe it’s that” will explain away genetics.
I respectfully submit that OP is in over her head with this Czech line who is showing fear, and she would be in over her head with a Carmspack pup, as well.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> First, I never thought anyone was blaming the breeder. Which if my comment had been kept with the rest of what I said, instead of being isolated and taken out of context, it should be clear.  And I also said at least twice to contact the breeder
> 
> Just for reference to keep what I said in context so others don't get stuck on the first sentence of what you quoted above -
> "*So don't compare your puppy to other puppies.* I know things about kennels, that are recommended on here all the time, that is kept hidden in the shadows. *All kennels have their faults*. Just concentrate on your puppy, socializing her at her speed, and *call your breeder to discuss this behavior.* "
> ...


I am not throwing stones at kennels either. Even the best, repeat breeding can throw abnormal pups.

It's hard to evaluate a dog over the internet. Most the time, when I talk to a client about a dog, they have just about everything wrong, at least in my opinion.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

EgansMom said:


> I did email the breeder about her wailing in the crate. I did have one crate downstairs and one in my bedroom but she advised this :
> "well yes that is normal for the first few days, but she has to get used to ,
> maybe put a towel over the crate, I would also not necessary have her in your
> bedroom. This will make her even more attached to you. She will learn but that
> will take a few days or first week."


So many different opinions. My dogs are in the crate next to the bed at night from day 1. They are supposed to bond to us.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well - this post was from 3 months ago. IMO, this breeder was not for you. You needed a medium drive, social, prey based dog. If I remember correctly, another poster described the opposite when you asked about what this litter would produce. 



EgansMom said:


> As you may know... I just lost my boy. Neither of my first 2 gsd's came from a breeder so I have a lot to learn and am relying heavily on the experience of the members here.
> Has anyone had experience with this breeder ?
> I am looking for a sound working line boy or girl to train with and possibly go on to more organized events as I learn what he/she enjoys (and I learn more about that world). But above all else a solid companion to do everything with ie. hiking, swimming etc.
> A dog I can take everywhere but who is happy to snuggle up in the evening a watch a movie with lots of hugs!
> ...


So you have some choices.
1. Get a good trainer to help you navigate the puppyhood of this girl and see how things go with her.
2. Contact Christine and return her now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> ...
> 
> It's hard to evaluate a dog over the internet. Most the time, when I talk to a client about a dog, they have just about everything wrong, at least in my opinion.


And not just the dog, but the reaction of the owner to the situation which is so very important. I'm sure you and I would handle the situation differently than the OP based on our experiences.


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## truckola (Nov 3, 2013)

"
And not just the dog, but the reaction of the owner to the situation which is so very important. I'm sure you and I would handle the situation differently than the OP based on our experiences."

Were an open book to a dog, we emit all kinds of odors and signals when we stress, I see Pepper watching the wife and I for our reactions to things, were calm and cool, she is calm and cool.

We were at the Golden Spike National historic site "Golden Spike National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)" they have a couple of live steam engines the operate there, we were there with Pepper, the ranger warned us about the noise, I watched Pepper when the whistles and bells started, she turned and looked at us, turned back and chilled.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Most the time, when I talk to a client about a dog, they have just about everything wrong, at least in my opinion.


That is sort of where I was going with this. An emotional owner and a new pup?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would not get a dog with Anrebri dogs in the pedigree. People have different opinions on the kennel's dogs and one is they throw a lot of dogs with genetic nerve issues.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My working line girl has linebreeding on 2 Anrebri dogs and no nerve issues. Now that I know where the pup is from, and have seen the pedigree, I'm surprised that she has issues with meeting strangers. Neither my working line or my showline dogs had fear issues as puppies. Star was a bit freaked out by children at first, having never met any, but a few sessions with kids giving her treats and petting her solved that in a hurry. After 14 HOURS on an airplane, Eska didn't want to come out of her crate, but one she was out, she sniffed around, oblivious to the traffic going by on the nearby road, then wanted to play with her leash! She was totally fine with meeting strangers and going into stores with me, though I don't recall how long I waited before I took her into a store.

Now, I DID have a dog with nerve issues, and they were so bad I finally rehomed her. The issues were definitely genetic, as I knew the breeder, and saw how the pups were handled and raised before I took her home at 8 weeks. The issues did not disappear with repeated exposure to the things she was afraid of. Any improvement was very, very slow. To give an example: one day, she was fine with taking treats from a stranger while sitting at an outdoor cafe with me. The next day, we met the same woman walking towards us along the street, and she totally freaked out and tried to run away when the lady wanted to pet her.

As many people have said, this may be a one-off thing, but if it continues to be a problem, I'd consider returning the pup. A dog with sound nerves DOES NOT act this way!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If it was me, I would do two things. First talk to the breeder. Then get a very good trainer with a lot of GSD experience to observe your puppy in different situations, including going back to Home Depot. Then make a decision based on fact rather than what people here are telling you. The advice you’ve been given is excellent, coming from some of the best minds, but we can’t observe you and the puppy. The final decision is yours.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Honestly, I’m not even sure that people are the problem. They could be, or the people at HD could have just been the cherry on top of a bunch of stressors that ultimately sent the puppy over the edge.

It would be interesting to see if she reacts the same way to a friendly person visiting her home, after she’s has a couple days to settle in and is feeling safe and secure. If that’s a problem too, well then - there’s your answer. One situation that should not have happened isn’t enough for me to be making any assumptions.Take a step back, slow down, and reevaluate.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

In some defense of the OP, assuming Wendelin Farms was her breeder, which earlier threads seemed to state, this was on their home page:

"Wendelin Farm is a breeder of high quality working [G]erman shepherd dogs from proven European blood lines. *Our puppies are raised in a family oriented environment to produce socially stable, clear headed dogs with solid nerve and good overall health*. We produce dogs with high drive who are versatile and can work in law enforcement, personal protection, SAR, top sport and *of course dogs who can live with a family and be a loyal companion/protection dog. It all depends on each individual puppy/dog and their future training. We do observe and evaluate our puppies when raising and it is very important to us to match each puppy with the client's need." *
(I added the bold-faced emphasis, but otherwise, direct cut-and-paste, and I didn't leave much out). 

I would add they have some beautiful dogs, and more importantly the website shows many photos of children sledding with dogs, playing hockey around dogs, swimming with dogs, and generally growing up with working line GSDs. So their marketing--and it really is marketing, and pretty well-produced marketing at that--seems pitched as much to families seeking pets as to people with years of experience training military, LE, or civil protection dogs. Not attacking or blaming the breeder here, and it may be there is nothing wrong with the dog. But when they encourage or outright require that they match the dog to you, then it seems to me they have some accountability. 

Switching gears a bit, I don't disagree that a fearful GSD would be a bundle of problems, but many have counseled giving the pup at least another chance or two or three. At this stage, it still has milk teeth, yes? You can literally scoop it up? So right now, any red flags notwithstanding, what is the harm in seeing if this was an isolated incident before you check it in on this puppy?
I would agree you might not keep it if this proves to be a pattern rather than a young, fresh from the whelping box puppy moment. But my point is, they are not going to put an injurious fear bite on someone at this age. There is the danger that you get too attached to a dog you *might* be best off giving up, but the OP's comments sound like she is already a little attached. 

I tried going back through some of my e-mails, schedules and just memories of what my two current pups did and where they went and how they reacted when I brought them home.
Rose, my profile pic girl went with me as a spectator to a large Thanksgiving day run last year, pre-COVID. Many hundreds of people lining the sidewalks. No fear reactions, BUT I held her a good bit of the time because I did not want her getting stepped on accidentally. She went in Lowes, same type big box as HD. She even went to work with me and hung out some. But she was also more like 3.5 months when I got her. 

Our male, now 9 going on 10 months, came home during COVID. He did very well at Lowes, Bass Pro Shop, big box pet store. But although we brought him home at 7 1/2 weeks, that was right in the heart of the first wave of COVID. I think the socializing came after he had been at our house a little while at least. He started going to Schutzhund training sessions young-ish, but certainly not at 8 weeks. 

What I do remember distinctly is that Rose threw a 1 or 2 on the Volhard test for the retrieving exercise (mostly 3s otherwise). Her breeder sent the results. Then when we went to pick her up, she would NOT retrieve. For. Squat. I found that perplexing. She much preferred to show how she could find the hole in the fence, go through it, find the other hole, and come back to us. The breeder let me play two ball fetch with the parents, to reassure me. When we got home hours later, I threw something, a ball, or balled up socks, pretty much resigned that Volhard test was wrong. She went bounding over and fetched it, as she has ever since. I know fear reactivity is a different, more serious concern, but my point is, sometimes a dog, especially a very young dog just has a moment where their mind is not wrapped around what you want them to do. 

Maybe do some more bonding, then re-introduce her to HD or some other similar setting. If behavior persists and really seems to be a discernible pattern, then make the decision.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@EgansMom I just want to share a quick story.
Sabi was the steadiest dog I have ever known, rock solid right out of the box. Never had normal puppy behavior, no whining or crazy puppy fits. In fact she was so good I kept making my vet examine her because I thought there was something wrong.
On two occasions that I can recall, for no apparent reason, between 2-6 months of age she completely lost her marbles over random things that she had dealt with before. While out with the kids she started growling and backing away from a snowman in spite of the fact that she had helped build said snowman the day before. That was at about 9 weeks. She flipped out and started growling and yelping at a barking dog behind a fence in spite of the fact that we walked past the same stupid dog every day with no issues. That was around 4-5 months.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Geez.

I just don’t see the issue. Pup has been home for two days. Two days. 

To each their own, but my new pup isn’t seeing anything but my family, home, grounds and it’s new pack for two weeks - at least. Granted. I’m not big on socialization, but that’s immaterial here.

Egans Mom. I know you’re very experienced and all the best with her. But the Home Depot situation wouldn’t occupy ten seconds of my time. 

I just think it’s farrrrr too early to be concerned.

Again, best of luck, though, in whatever transpires moving down the road .....


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> One more thing, Valor and Max had each other, and an adult dog, and a really experienced and confident handler.
> I love the way David handles things, but I am not so certain that the average dog owner has his ability and expertise. I know I don't.
> Stop beating yourself up.


I agree with you on this too. I think Max and Valor were also between 10 and 12 weeks at the time not 8. I think David said he got Valor at somewhere around that timeframe. I have to go back and check.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Update:
Just spoke to the breeder.
She said it was way too much too soon.
That she would give the bonding with just me a solid week.
Introduce people and new situations more slowly.
That the litter was socialized with her and her family.
That she was exposed to individuals coming and going to pick up other pups and did fine.
That she tested temperament.
That she is a sweet girl with sound nerves from what she assessed.
And that I am welcome to continue calling if there are any concerns.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Squidwardp said:


> In some defense of the OP, assuming Wendelin Farms was her breeder, which earlier threads seemed to state, this was on their home page:
> 
> "Wendelin Farm is a breeder of high quality working [G]erman shepherd dogs from proven European blood lines. *Our puppies are raised in a family oriented environment to produce socially stable, clear headed dogs with solid nerve and good overall health*. We produce dogs with high drive who are versatile and can work in law enforcement, personal protection, SAR, top sport and *of course dogs who can live with a family and be a loyal companion/protection dog. It all depends on each individual puppy/dog and their future training. We do observe and evaluate our puppies when raising and it is very important to us to match each puppy with the client's need." *
> (I added the bold-faced emphasis, but otherwise, direct cut-and-paste, and I didn't leave much out).
> ...


Oddly enough, I keyed in one what you DIDN'T bold:
*"We produce dogs with high drive who are versatile and can work in law enforcement, personal protection, SAR, top sport"*

Of course they CAN be good family pets and still not be right for many families.

I looked back at my advice to the OP when she first thought she wanted a "medium-high drive" dog:
Just a quick note to the OP EgansMom, maybe 1 in 100 owners are ready for a truly moderate/high drive GSD (emphasis on high drive). I'm not sure most even know what that looks like. Even a low ot moderate drive dog is more than enough for the average dog owner's "hiking and swimming" 

It's weird because I would have bet the OP would get a "medium" drive GSD that would be too much to handle for her.

Bottom line remains. Call the breeder (although you already called her just to find out if an 8 week old puppy should cry in a remote crate....), take a breath, take a few days and give her some more reasonable exposure and I bet she starts to excel. Or not....and you'll know.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Oddly enough, I keyed in one what you DIDN'T bold:
> *"We produce dogs with high drive who are versatile and can work in law enforcement, personal protection, SAR, top sport"*
> 
> Of course they CAN be good family pets and still not be right for many families.
> ...


Every litter has a range of temperaments. What is a breeder to do with a lower drive puppy when most buyers want the opposite? Those dogs as sold as pets. My breeder always pulled off dogs for LE and high level sports first, then sold the rest to more pet homes.

To the OP, I don’t take my dogs to Home Depot for socialization. I have taken them to Lowe’s and Ace both of which have wider aisles and more open space. I also take them to pet stores, restaurants when we are allowed and outside farmer’s markets. To me, Home Depot is always hectic. I only go there myself if I have to.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Hate to sound all flaky but full moon. No kiddin'. Makes a big difference. You may have just picked the wrong night for your first home depot exposure. Try it again Dec. 7 (last quarter) and again Dec 14 (new moon). Also, be more of a leader/handler and less of an observer. Ignore the other shoppers and focus training to walk on lead.

as for the crate screaming, whatever you do, don't react to it. Don't look at it, don't talk to it, just ignore.

make it a point to let pup see that you just don't care. Get some headphones, park yourself right in front of that crate and binge watch a few seasons on netflix. LOL it may take 2 weeks, but pup will catch on eventually if you do your part.


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## JodieRN96 (Dec 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Depends on the dog. Maybe next time put her in a cart and let her look around.


The first time we took our Moose out for socializing we took him to the local Ace Hardware. We figured less people, less intimidating. I placed him in the shopping cart and he was a little nervous at first, but did very well. We have taken him to the feed store several times since, to Bimart, and back to the local hardware store. Each time he does better and we have received endless comments on how handsome and well behaved he is. I'm sure your girl will do better in time. Just take it slow and start with someplace a little less busy, and with much less stimulus.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, how are you doing? I mean this in a serious way.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, how are you doing? I mean this in a serious way.


We had a more quiet close to home day. Mostly because I get wicked weather headaches. Lots of play inside and out. Some some engagement & name stuff. Provided she gets exercise she is great at calming herself and relaxing.
Good news: she is not afraid of the sound of rain, being in rain, umbrellas, being near the car. Tried a little walk on street but she is distracted by everything (and we haven't really done leash pressure so it's a mess). Good news is she is distracted -interested in everything. It was just now so it was quiet-no dog/people but at least she wasn't scared about being a little further from home.
Also good is that she is getting a little more comfortable exploring further away from me in the house and vice versa.
But when we were playing in the yard just now the neighbor started dragging his garbage bins to the curb. She ran to the side door to come in. I made no notice of it and just got a stick and made playing motions and called and she came racing back to play. Would that be considered "able to recover" from a startle ?
Next on the to do list is bring her out and lots of treats while I rattle my bins.

How am I ? ... trying to take advantage of any quiet times to catch up on rest.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

EgansMom said:


> But when we were playing in the yard just now the neighbor started dragging his garbage bins to the curb. She ran to the side door to come in. I made no notice of it and just got a stick and made playing motions and called and she came racing back to play. Would that be considered "able to recover" from a startle ?


That is a perfect recovery! I'm glad you got to relax and have some fun together.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> That is a perfect recovery! I'm glad you got to relax and have some fun together.


Ya... she didn't stay stuck. With a little encouragement that is was no big deal she was fine.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Glad to hear that today went well. Now for a restful night😴, or as much as you can with a new baby in the house! 😉


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

Ok .. I think she passed the rattle my bin test. It's in the front yard . She moved away at first but easily come back with upbeat fun voice from me. She checked out the metal bin. Sniffed. Took a walk around it. I dragged it a foot (enough to make noise)she moved away again but this time she came back a little more confident and curious. We also saw a neighbor across the street with his little dog just coming in from a walk. She gave them a cursory glance and moved towards them a few steps then came back to me (but she knew I had treats in my pocket).
I think she is doing fine. Maybe these accomplishments seem minor because some of the pups on here are scaling Mount Everest and they are pretty amazing, but I'm proud of her as a little girl away from her family with no pack here except this strange lady.
She also catches on super quick with training. She already goes to the door if she needs to pee (about half the time) and is responding to her name. And she learned VERY quickly how to jump on the couch (I'm ok with it) because she loves snuggling.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

All good but don't overdo it. You have a lifetime ahead of her. There is a good sticky post about over-socializing but I can't find it. My pups were still in the litter at this age until 11 weeks. The 8 week age can also be a fear period.


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## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> All good but don't overdo it. You have a lifetime ahead of her. There is a good sticky post about over-socializing but I can't find it. My pups were still in the litter at this age until 11 weeks. The 8 week age can also be a fear period.


Sorry just re read my post. By "we saw a neighbor" I meant she gave them a cursory glance from across the street in our front yard. Her reaction was kinda like "ya, whatever". Perfect !

She seems to think under the couch is something of a den. She's flaked out. 
Yay. I get to watch a show then we are up to bed. Our schedule starts and ends later. 
I had forgotten how exhausting puppyhood is and how you wonder if you both will survive it. lol


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A crate Near your bed at night will not effect anything but Allow you to sleep better. I had one crated one near my bed and one downstairs in the kitchen. You can try a blanket covered partially with adequate ventilation to try to calm her down. I would only let her out of the crate when she is sleeping and not when she is crying - this is the biggest most important lesson in crate training. The pup must be calm and quiet before allowed to leave the crate. If you are letting her out of the crate as she is screaming you are rewarding her for screaming. And showing her wrongly how to behave in a crate. In regards to people it is interesting to compare to see if pups have changed and how. With that said though you should not judge a pup on one outing even a few with no time to bond ever. Just like kids there dots are connected with growth. It can be possible though it would give you a glimpse on how the pup responds to a particular pressure and what will be needed to work on in the future. There are all different kinds of pressure maybe it’s people he is unsure of. Or it can mean a new day can mean a new start and without cause of concern. It can mean all they need is direction to get over the hump and some time and patience. There is always something to work on with your growing pup they are living beings and not machines or fictional characters made of steel. Enjoy your outings with your pup it is important with any degree and kind of nerves. Bad experiences will shape the dogs outlook. You can not judge by one bad outing And not should judge a line but only what you have in front of you. It is important to relax. Nerves are not black and white as you often hear about.

Only going down memory land -The next day after bringing Max home from the breeders. I had brought him to my nephews bday party the day after we had him. it was the end of the party And was my moms house with only my family but yeah he took it in stride. A few days later we traveled out of state with Max to a aunts party xmas eve party where the house was jammed with people and he had no crate and he settled in automatically. iThe very first night I brought Max home (who is a asl line ) who was very quiet at the breeders when we picked him up seemed to know what was going on and also cried a lot on the way home in the car. He investigated the house as soon as we put him on the ground and was chasing all the leaves in the backyard and running around with my son who took to him instantly. There are woods in our backyard and it was at night and was so loud, windy and eerie -almost hurricane type of winds. The trees were blowing like mad. Max was off the leash. He had an option to run back in the house as the sliding glass doors were open but he walked over to me where I stood and middle of the back yard and sat down right next to me and quietly watched the trees dance in the madness with me it was a site to see. It told me a lot about him even back then that we will face any storm together and so we have. I remember going to the breeders and at 4 weeks of age is saw Max cry and whine as his dam left the whelping box through the doggy door to her kennel to eat a cookie. All the other 7 pups just played with each other without a care in the world to where their dam was. Max is still a mommas boy and by my side all the time without being anxious or clingy. I remember he could not get out of the whelping box as a 4 week old pup he just perched his paws on top of it. I remember for a brief moment thinking as I observed this pup at the breeders pining for his momma, I was concerned would this pup have separation anxiety issues and would he be unathletic. As it turned out he is the most athletic dog I ever owned and has no separation anxiety, extremely environmentally sound dog with strong pack drives ,food ball and prey drives and strong protective instincts with a really connection to me.

A 10 week old pup I hooked him up to a sled to as a young puppy and he was happy to pull it. He would check out any thing he was unsure. There were balloons blowing on a bench at the end of the trail he could not wait to put his head in the middle of it. Still to this day heis very forward in that regard right in the middle of what he is unsure of to investigate: We live near Atlantic Ocean - giant sized waves in Ny but more so strong waves and really strong tides much different then Florida. Max would chase a ball and dive through any sized wave or he will swim out to me to check on me without a ball investigate, crawl into sewer tunnels he is unnerved not by much. He Will scent work a room unleashed without noticing a room filled of dogs., He does not like smoke I would say smoke is the one thing that will rattle his cage And want to get away from heavy smoke.

Luna a wgsl was a happy loving exciting puppy to see us from the start she adapted immediately to the house she was naturally obedient even then . Her first outing was at the people park with the family the day after. A week after I had her in a shopping cart. I remember it was right after the election at home at home goods 4 years ago. I then had brought her to petco I remember there was some kind of event and it was a bit to busy to my liking but there were people in wheel chairs in crutches and she was just as happy to see them. Both dogs were always very comfortable and happy with attention as pups from people. Max maturing being more watchful of strangers outside the circle and Luna being more social accepting of large scale attention from strangers outside the circle. Max never liking strange dogs as he was never around any dogs but he does now mind his manners and all is needed is a leave it. I feel as if used this from the beginning it would go been never an issue. Luna is not as environmentally sound to certain objects in as comfortably walking in a tv sized box or searching in a swinging bucket filled with water but has strong environmental in regard to loud sounds she cares nothing about she will not want to search the house to find and eat a block buster firework that is set of on the house behind her but sleep through one and she would jump in on anything. Luna loves the bay but unsure of the giant powerful waves of the Atlantic Ocean In Ny. Some days the ocean is to powerful for me to go in myself: They are both really good sold strong nerved that make excellent family dogs that can was seen at a young age. My entire point is look for your pup strong points and focus on those. A dog with strong nerves will have weaknesses and the things that you consider a weaknesses will be hard to notice eventually as they mature because their strengths are greater.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

Hey EgansMom,

I think that's normal behaviour because she's still a baby and unsure of the world! Don't be hard on yourself. Right now she's going "what is this?!?!" She'll bounce back once she knows it's safe. She's only 8 weeks, give her time.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

She’s doing very well and so are you. I know that feeling of panic when something is not what we expect, but these dogs are a very resilient breed in general. She’s a beautiful dog, sounds like just what you wanted. So much can be fixed with early exposure.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

EgansMom said:


> So Jaimie has been home for a couple of days just spending tons of time with me. The only issue we were having...I thought..was screaming in the crate.
> I took her out to home depot tonight to see her reactions. I thought "oh this is good" when the big automatic doors opened and she stopped but then followed me with no hesitation. She trotted along beside me no problem till the first person walked by her. In fact every person that walked by within about 10 feet she would freeze then avoid.... backing away as much as the leash would allow.
> I really didn't expect that. I guess I got a little flustered. (Haven't had much sleep). I ended up kinda half sliding/half quick stepping her out of there. I didn't want to pick her up and reinforce her fear.
> In hindsight I think I should have just stopped at a distance from people and given her treats as they passed ?
> ...


"What is a weak nerved dog? Simply put, a weak nerved dog shows avoidance or aggressive behaviors in response to non-threatening people, situations or objects. This includes the shy dogs and the fear biters. Nothing is more difficult for a breeder or dog owner to hear than that her dog has a nerve problem. People will go to great lengths to bend reality around and deny the problem. All the alarms should go off in your head when you hear a breeder attempting to blame the environment for a dog's behavior. For instance, the shy pup who cringes and skitters away from you when you crouch down to pet her. I'll bet the breeder told you not to worry, she's just a little shy and needs time to get to know you. And I'll bet the breeder told you that is perfectly normal for a puppy. Or the young adult dog who lunges and snaps at a neutral stranger you see walking down the street and you decide it's because the stranger was wearing a funny hat or that your dog is just incredibly perceptive and recognized some evil trait in the stranger from which she was bravely protecting you. (Actually, if your dog did this only once or twice in a lifetime, I'd be inclined to buy it). A dog's reaction to neutral strangers is always significant. By neutral, we mean the stranger walking down the street who pays no attention to you or your dog. Does the dog ignore the stranger? Fine. Some curiosity is well within normal range as well. Avoidance or aggression are signals of a serious nerve problem."

Probably not what you want to hear. It could pass. Has the breeder agreed to replace the pup? If you see this avoidance/freezing/nervousness much longer I would strongly suggest you replace the pup. I think you are getting some bad information here about the behavior you described as normal for a GSD or, she hasn't had time to adjust, or the situation was too much. As the writer above stated, people will go to great lengths to the deny the problem. JMO


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip, read all 7 pages. There Is more information further down. It seems the OP has figured it out.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I read all seven pages. In addition to the quote from the OP above, she said the pup screamed and howled in the crate for an hour, ran from the garbage cans that the neighbor dragged, moved away from the rattling of the metal bin two times. The pup might be showing improvement but I think the reactions described indicate a nerve issue. She might end up being fine as a pet but I would not keep this pup. The breeder should have sent the OP some video showing the pup exposed to potentially stressful situations. Wonder why she didn't.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

"Understand that nerve problems are not fixable. Skittering away from a scary object or noise is not a training problem, it is a temperament problem. With enough training, you could teach a dog to inhibit his response to a particular stimulus, but you will not fix the nerve problem. For example, you could teach a weak dog not to run away from a moving wheelchair. But suppose the wheelchair user dropped a book on the floor. You can be certain the dog would panic all over again. Training can, to an extent, modify specific behaviors, but it cannot change the dog's genetics. Weakness in temperament will always resurface under stress. And it requires stress tests to weed weak nerved dogs out of the gene pool."


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For the record, I have talked to Christine about a pup and was interested in a breeding, but as I said, I don’t want Anrebri dogs in a pedigree. Doesn’t mean they are crap dogs but to me, increases the odds of nerve issues. The other thing about the OP’s breeding is that there are quite a few dogs whose primary drive is defensive aggression vs. prey. That is not necessarily a bad thing either, but defensive aggression is fear based. It is a double edged sword where some dogs with such genetics will be able to channel their defensive aggression into fight while other lean more toward flight. Not at all knocking Wendelin but they do breed a lot of dogs. I believe she is an honest breeder and would accommodate the OP. With all her recent losses I would hate to see her get a dog that is not a good representative of the breed. I also understand that returning a pup would be another loss but you have to detach and think about it like buying a lemon of a car. Good luck.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> For the record, I have talked to Christine about a pup and was interested in a breeding, but as I said, I don’t want Anrebri dogs in a pedigree. Doesn’t mean they are crap dogs but to me, increases the odds of nerve issues. *The other thing about the OP’s breeding is that there are quite a few dogs whose primary drive is defensive aggression vs. prey. That is not necessarily a bad thing either, but defensive aggression is fear based. It is a double edged sword where some dogs with such genetics will be able to channel their defensive aggression into fight while other lean more toward flight. * Not at all knocking Wendelin but they do breed a lot of dogs. I believe she is an honest breeder and would accommodate the OP. With all her recent losses I would hate to see her get a dog that is not a good representative of the breed. I also understand that returning a pup would be another loss but you have to detach and think about it like buying a lemon of a car. Good luck.


The bolded, don't look for Labradors and Goldens. Nothing wrong with suspicion, GSDs cannot protect or guard naturally without it as called for in the breed standard.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

No matter what drive the dog works in, you want good nerves.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A large part of the problem is a combination of a pup that was too young, not given time to deal with leaving the litter, thrown in the deep end with HD and that crazy garbage can training at this young age, locked in a crate away from everyone etc. I would be surprised if a puppy like her would not have been stressed out with a start like this


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

first and foremost I think it's important to listen to your gut about pup. The last thing I'm here to do is talk anyone into keeping a pup they know in their gut they shouldn't. The younger a pup is, the easier to find it a new home. The older a pup gets, the fewer new homes will consider it. Trust your gut.

I haven't read all 7 pages. No idea what your goals are? 

but if you're just looking for a solid companion, you can't go wrong with the old scotland yard test.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> first and foremost I think it's important to listen to your gut about pup. The last thing I'm here to do is talk anyone into keeping a pup they know in their gut they shouldn't. The younger a pup is, the easier to find it a new home. The older a pup gets, the fewer new homes will consider it. Trust your gut.
> 
> I haven't read all 7 pages. No idea what your goals are?
> 
> but if you're just looking for a solid companion, you can't go wrong with the old scotland yard test.


She's looking for a pet. What does she want with that?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

just so we're all on the same page, I wouldn't call the pup in the scotland yard video "heavy duty."
I'd call him serviceable.





this looks "heavy duty" to me


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> just so we're all on the same page, I wouldn't call the pup in the scotland yard video "heavy duty."
> I'd call him serviceable.
> 
> 
> ...


These pups grow into amazing partners *only when you know what you are doing*. If not, they become a nightmare and a liability. Deja is 7 years old and still intense. I cannot, and don't want to, imagine what she would have been like with the average pet owner.
Another thought. It is generally advised to give a new dog a 14 day shut down, to get them used to their new home and people, yet what is happening with most new puppies?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> first and foremost I think it's important to listen to your gut about pup. The last thing I'm here to do is talk anyone into keeping a pup they know in their gut they shouldn't. The younger a pup is, the easier to find it a new home. The older a pup gets, the fewer new homes will consider it. Trust your gut.
> 
> I haven't read all 7 pages. No idea what your goals are?
> 
> but if you're just looking for a solid companion, you can't go wrong with the old scotland yard test.


A few days ago, you posted asking experienced people what they look for in a puppy.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

a 7 or 8 week pup should investigate a clang, retrieve a crumpled paper, and show a little tug

those aren't "extreme" traits at all


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> A few days ago, you posted asking experienced people what they look for in a puppy.


 your point?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> your point?


Have a wonderful evening


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> a 7 or 8 week pup should investigate a clang, retrieve a crumpled paper, and show a little tug
> 
> those aren't "extreme" traits at all


Your qualifications, especially with working line GSD, to make that determination?


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> These pups grow into amazing partners *only when you know what you are doing*. If not, they become a nightmare and a liability. Deja is 7 years old and still intense. I cannot, and don't want to, imagine what she would have been like with the average pet owner.
> Another thought. It is generally advised to give a new dog a 14 day shut down, to get them used to their new home and people, yet what is happening with most new puppies?


Is Deja Czech?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your qualifications, especially with working line GSD, to make that determination?


investigate the clang = stability

retrieve crumpled paper = bidability

bit o tug = trainability

no qualifications required


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> investigate the clang = stability
> 
> retrieve crumpled paper = bidability
> 
> ...


You have nothing to back up your rambling and that's all it is... ramblings. This is not a Poodle and Terrier forum.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

you aren't arguing against me, MAWL. You're arguing against scotland yard.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> you aren't arguing against me, MAWL. You're arguing against scotland yard.


I know what I am arguing against and if I posted it, I would get banned.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

SuperAndre said:


> Is Deja Czech?


Sorry, I am not an expert on pedigrees. She has several German dogs in her lines. Possibly Czech further down.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@berno von der seeweise you’ve derailed countless threads, granted, you don’t do it alone, but for once let’s not make this one about you. take the time to read through the thread, yes, all 8 pages - or respectfully bypass it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think it matters most if OP is happy with her puppy...

not what any of us think an ideal puppy is.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it matters most if OP is happy with her puppy...
> 
> not what any of us think an ideal puppy is.


I think she's trying to decide and looking for information.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I have a simple question. How many times have you heard the advice “pick the shy pup?” I never have. It’s always the opposite.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I have a simple question. How many times have you heard the advice “pick the shy pup?” I never have. It’s always the opposite.


Actually I have heard that a lot, not in regards to picking a dog for sport or work, but for a pet... absolutely I have heard it.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I think she's trying to decide and looking for information.


Well I guess she's been just about as flooded with info as the pup was at HD with about 8 pages worth now

I have my thoughts but don't have any useful information to provide. I would however be very interested to see/hear how this pup progresses in regards to confidence/nerve strength to maturity.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I have a simple question. How many times have you heard the advice “pick the shy pup?” I never have. It’s always the opposite.


I have heard that actually. It is pretty common advice for pet people.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I have heard that actually. It is pretty common advice for pet people.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually I have heard that a lot, not in regards to picking a dog for sport or work, but for a pet... absolutely I have heard it.


Do you agree with that statement?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> Do you agree with that statement?


Of course I do! They are a perfect fit for working families or first time dog owners, lazy dog owners, inexperienced owners, soft owners, etc.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Do you agree with that statement?


Not for me! But my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I have a simple question. How many times have you heard the advice “pick the shy pup?” I never have. It’s always the opposite.


My dad actually went with this- When I was a kid we got a free blue heeler mix pup. My dad saw the one that went scurrying to hide under an LP tank when we got there and said right away 'we want that one'. Actually turned out to be a really good dog granted it was just a farm dog. Relatively friendly, never displayed fear aggression or such issues and actually had shown decent courage and resilience in a few instances I can think of.

--- I would consider this as more of an exception to the rule I would think


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I never heard that at all makes no sense. I do not think a shy dog would be good for families at all and would be way to chaotic for them especially a family with young kids or teens. A shy dog would be most comfortable in a quiet recluse type home who leads a not so social life.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> ....my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.


I fervently hope that’s the OP’s takeaway from all this information. We are not all looking for the same things, and we should take that into consideration when evaluating the deluge of information and opinions expressed here.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Not for me! But my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.


That is true. It is also true that neither of us would look to select the shy one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> That is true. It is also true that neither of us would look to select the shy one.


Maybe if more pet people would pick the shy retiring pup there wouldn't be so many frustrated dog owners with out of control dogs posting on here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It sounds like many of those dogs are shy and nervy and that where lies in the problem. A lot of rescue dogs are shy and are projects for many people who adopt them.
A social family with kids gets pretty hectic loud noisy and tons of different people always over. A balanced dog is key for any family.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe if more pet people would pick the shy retiring pup there wouldn't be so many frustrated dog owners with out of control dogs posting on here.


I don't think shy means lacking drive or energy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> I don't think shy means lacking drive or energy.


Agreed, but it does increase the odds that regardless of what is happening and what state the dog is in that it won't approach a stranger which can be a bonus with a less than dog savvy owner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Such a great point Jenny720! Those shy puppies "can" turn out okay, but more frequently are difficult dogs to live with their entire lives!

A confident puppy will, with good handling and training, be a confident dog and a great companion. 

This puppy shows extreme avoidance of a person not paying any attention to them from 10 or more feet away. All the excuses in the world won't change the fact that this puppy has weak nerves. It WILL be a lifelong project.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Agreed, but it does increase the odds that regardless of what is happening and what state the dog is in that it won't approach a stranger which can be a bonus with a less than dog savvy owner.


That is true. I believe the issues that could come from it, like fear biting, out way the good.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> That is true. I believe the issues that could come from it, like fear biting, out way the good.


I don't think a timid dog necessarily equates to a fear biter although it can but I think fear biting is far more ranging than timidity.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Agreed, but it does increase the odds that regardless of what is happening and what state the dog is in that it won't approach a stranger which can be a bonus with a less than dog savvy owner.


A shy fearful dog will bite if it feels threatened and cornered with no where to run. Not the best choice dog to have with a family with young kids which means a busy household and a social one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> A shy fearful dog will bite if it feels threatened and cornered with no where to run. Not the best choice dog to have with a family young kids.


That is nonsense. I have owned my share of shy, fearful, nerve bags and not a single one turned into a fear biter. All of them were excellent with all family members. In fact, the nerve bags were far better with family when it came to extended family that frequented the home on a regular basis.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is nonsense. I have owned my share of shy, fearful, nerve bags and not a single one turned into a fear biter. All of them were excellent with all family members. In fact, the nerve bags were far better with family when it came to extended family that frequented the home on a regular basis.


 You are talking nonsense. There are plenty of shy fearful nerve bags who bite family members. Those are the dogs that bite family members. It’s a fact not an opinion either.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Yea right, that is not what I read on this forum, it is the bold, outgoing dogs in inexperienced hands that are chewing on the family.

I have NEVER had to lock a nerve bag or timid dog up to let somebody in the house nor have I had one challenge me or another family member.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> You are talking nonsense. There are plenty of shy fearful nerve bags who bite family members. Those are the dogs that bite family members. It’s a fact not an opinion either.


It depends how they are handled. Shelters label them as 'abused and just needing love' and off they go with their rescuers.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wow and wow this forum is just a tiny slice of the world. There are plenty of nerve bags that bite their own family memebers despite what you think. I’m not talking about little fearful cockapoos. This is a German shepherd forum. There are plenty of dogs who are in animal shelters not fit for families with kids. A dog who is bred to be aggressive and who is fearful and shy is not a dog I would tell families to look for. You are saying fearful and shy and there is a lot more to those dynamics most certainly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> Wow and wow this forum is just a tiny slice of the world. There are plenty of nerve bags that bite their own family memebers despite what you think. I’m not talking about little fearful cockapoos. This is a German shepherd forum. There are plenty of dogs who are in animal shelters not fit for families with kids. A dog who is bred to be aggressive and who is fearful and shy is not a dog I would tell families to look for. You are saying fearful and shy and there is a lot more to those dynamics most certainly.


Have you owned even one fear biter, timid dog, or a dog with less than stellar nerves?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know know quite a few as i hav worked in the animal business. I also know many people in the emergency room as well as people who run well respected shelters to know that all shy and fearful dogs are not same and to lump them all as humble, helpless and non aggressive actually recommending them to families is something I would not do. Oh but it is most certainly done.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ok...
closing this thread for the night.
@EgansMom take some time to catch up, try not to get overwhelmed and message a Mod to have it reopened if you’d like. hope you’re taking care...


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