# Passive protection article for SDs



## AutismDogGirl

Okay this was posted in my autism service dog group I want others thoughts on this article. I kinda makes me uncomfortable. I need more time to sort my emotions here, I'm posting a direct link this time because this is the second article this guy has posted. So he wants it shared anyways. PLEASE someone help me understand. Is this even legal? For some reason reading this makes me anxious 

DogWish Passive Protection Family Defense K9 Service Dogs Bob's Blog


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## KSdogowner

I am far far from being an expert but I would seriously doubt that any dog can be 100% trusted at all times. There is always that animal instinct that can kick in when the right conditions are met. So, I am a bit skeptical when someone claims they can train a dog to be 100% controllable at all times.


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## AutismDogGirl

KSdogowner I agree with you 100 percent! They are dogs first even the best trained service dog make mistakes.


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## AutismDogGirl

I am going to ask him to stop advertising in my group it is frustrating but I am afraid to be confrontational


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## KSdogowner

ASDogGeek said:


> I am going to ask him to stop advertising in my group it is frustrating but I am afraid to be confrontational


Well, I wonder what others who actually have expert knowledge with training are thinking about it. Like I said, I just have an opinion for what it's worth....but not based on expertise. So maybe this makes sense to a person who does train dogs?


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## ILGHAUS

Oh, errr...... um ....... 

Large claims on both of what he is able to do and his own background.

Link given by OP

Impressive:

"Bob Taylor is a 35 year California State Superior Court K9 Expert,who has handled over 100 Superior Court cases successfully. He also helped create the “Dangerous Dog Laws”,and has trained over 1,000 dangerous dogs by rehabilitating their behaviors,and making them safe and socially acceptable. He also is a multi-national Police and Schutzhund K9 Champion,over 500,000 contestants,and has represented the German Shepherd Dog Club at the World Schutzhund Championships several times,producing some of the highest scoring dogs in the world.

Bob has,over the last 30 years,trained thousands of dogs to protect homes and businesses all over the world,and for several nations in the world. He is presently regarded as superior in this field by the United Kingdom,through his work with Rocam International,one of the World’s leading Military Organizations. As recently as this March,2011,Bob conducted an International Advanced Police Dog Seminar on Parrot Cay Island in the Caribbean,attended by Delta Force Commandos,and was awarded the highest marks possible for his work."



Of course I would be more impressed if I could find any of these claims listed elsewhere other then on his website or blog.


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## AutismDogGirl

Lol yeah what do you make of this article? I was looking forward to your opinion. What is passive protection it really wasn't explained!


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## Chicagocanine

This reminds me of those dog trainers websites where they talk and talk about how great their training is but they never tell you what methods/tools they use! It's a lot of words without really saying anything.


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## AutismDogGirl

Lol yup a member ACTUALY pointed that out she said how the article talked about why you need a service dog with passive protection with out explaining what that means or giving any real examples


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## PhoenixFiresky

It is pretty vague. Lots of words, very little real content. As far as I can figure out, he's saying that the dogs are not trained to attack on command. They are trained to interfere with anyone who attempts to touch their handler aggressively, and are taught to distinguish between aggressive behavior and other social behaviors that involve touching. I believe that the emphasis is placed on the dog sort of pushing the aggressor away with it's body and by threatening gestures rather than biting (that's why it's passive) - although that doesn't mean they're trained NEVER to bite. Of course, whether they would be as reliable about it as he claims is debatable.

Assuming (for the sake of argument) that he is correct and his dogs are totally reliable, I can understand his reasons for thinking it would be a helpful thing to train a service dog in. He included several stories about disabled kids being beaten by other kids that are really heartbreaking. So I can see how he could see it as useful for them. 

Or, take (some of) my disabilities as an example. I have impaired hearing, Asperger's, and something called Face Blindness which keeps me from recognizing people out of context. I have failed to recognize family members when meeting them at the mall. If someone comes up to me in a friendly manner, I am likely to assume that they know me. Because of the AS, I am also likely to overlook subtle signs that a person's intentions are dangerous. And to make matters worse, I may not even hear the beginning of an aggressive act if the person were, say, behind me and went to hurt me. I would be caught completely unaware. Since I'm only 5' tall, that would be bad. Obviously, I don't go out alone unless it's unavoidable - it's just not really safe for me to do so. An SD dog that also was trained in protection could make the world a much safer place for me - and it would also be directly mitigating my disabilities. I would probably be far more comfortable going out alone if I had a dog like that. It wouldn't keep me from being wrong in who I know, but at least if I made a major mistake, I'd have some help at hand. 

Not that I would get one, or that I necessarily believe this guy's claims - or even that I think it's a good idea. And I certainly wouldn't trade my SDIT for a different dog, anyway. I'm just trying to point out WHY he might think protection training would be a good idea for some individuals' SDs.


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## AutismDogGirl

PhoenixFiresky said:


> It is pretty vague. Lots of words, very little real content. As far as I can figure out, he's saying that the dogs are not trained to attack on command. They are trained to interfere with anyone who attempts to touch their handler aggressively, and are taught to distinguish between aggressive behavior and other social behaviors that involve touching. I believe that the emphasis is placed on the dog sort of pushing the aggressor away with it's body and by threatening gestures rather than biting (that's why it's passive) - although that doesn't mean they're trained NEVER to bite. Of course, whether they would be as reliable about it as he claims is debatable.
> 
> Assuming (for the sake of argument) that he is correct and his dogs are totally reliable, I can understand his reasons for thinking it would be a helpful thing to train a service dog in. He included several stories about disabled kids being beaten by other kids that are really heartbreaking. So I can see how he could see it as useful for them.
> 
> Or, take (some of) my disabilities as an example. I have impaired hearing, Asperger's, and something called Face Blindness which keeps me from recognizing people out of context. I have failed to recognize family members when meeting them at the mall. If someone comes up to me in a friendly manner, I am likely to assume that they know me. Because of the AS, I am also likely to overlook subtle signs that a person's intentions are dangerous. And to make matters worse, I may not even hear the beginning of an aggressive act if the person were, say, behind me and went to hurt me. I would be caught completely unaware. Since I'm only 5' tall, that would be bad. Obviously, I don't go out alone unless it's unavoidable - it's just not really safe for me to do so. An SD dog that also was trained in protection could make the world a much safer place for me - and it would also be directly mitigating my disabilities. I would probably be far more comfortable going out alone if I had a dog like that. It wouldn't keep me from being wrong in who I know, but at least if I made a major mistake, I'd have some help at hand.
> 
> Not that I would get one, or that I necessarily believe this guy's claims - or even that I think it's a good idea. And I certainly wouldn't trade my SDIT for a different dog, anyway. I'm just trying to point out WHY he might think protection training would be a good idea for some individuals' SDs.


I have face blindness too! i still remember not being able to find my mom in store if we got separated as a kid it gave me major separation anxiety as a kid! I am much the same way as you if people are nice to me and approach me like they know me I assume they do! i understnd why he would think it too bt I don't trust his organization and his claims seem to extreme to be true. I am researcching him now via google a few people sinng his praises but some say he is a fraud one person said he falsified vaccine records?


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## PhoenixFiresky

AHA! I found the part where he gets fairly clear in describing it:

"Therefore,any protection dog should be *trained not to bite until they are commanded to do so from the handler. They should not bite unless there is a direct,physical assault on their handler. They should be trained to first stand in front of the handler,quiet and immobile. They should then be trained to face off the suspect. They should then be trained to follow the command of a responsible Handler [by biting if instructed to do so]* (bracket comment added by Phoenix). A properly trained dog will have the ability to know if someone is dangerous to their handler;to feel and smell and see the danger in that person. The dog should react according to that situation but also follow the commands of their handler as well."

He goes on to say that his dogs are trained to ignore a handler's order to go through these stages if the dog perceives no direct threat to the handler, and that they are also trained to alert the handler if they perceive danger the handler hasn't noticed. 

Presumably, then, a kid couldn't get the dog to comply with the order to bite his mom when he doesn't want to do homework. I think I speak for all moms when I say "that's a relief!" :crazy:


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## ILGHAUS

> Lol yeah what do you make of this article? I was looking forward to your opinion.


My opinion is ..... look I know dog's are amazing creatures but to "train" a dog to lock in on someone's brain waves in order to be able to find them (minus scent) is a rather novel concept. 

From the article: Autism Service Dogs and Brainwave Sensitivity
Quote:
He went to the elevator up to the fourth floor and indicated to stop the machine. He went to the right, down the corridor, and into a door on the left, stopping at a closed door. Dave opened the door, and Casper went into the room and sat next to a man, sitting in a chair, who was then identified as the “escaped” mentally ill patient. 
www.servicek9sforautism.com/autism_service_dogs


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## ILGHAUS

> I am researcching him now via google a few people sinng his praises


When you research and find these do a check and see which sites they are located on. I don't give them as much credit if the sites are owned by and all information entered by the person being praised.


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## AutismDogGirl

i thought it was made clear in the ada service dogs can not be trained to bite on command


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## AutismDogGirl

ILGHAUS said:


> When you research and find these do a check and see which sites they are located on. I don't give them as much credit if the sites are owned by and all information entered by the person being praised.



yeah I will PM you the links if you want.


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## PhoenixFiresky

You're the first other person I've encountered with Face Blindness! Nice to meet you!  I know what you mean about not recognizing your mom. Scary! One time this guy showed up at my front door. He knew my name, asked about my kid, etc. I had no idea who he was, but he seemed to expect to be invited in, so I did, and spent the afternoon with him. I had no idea how to answer his questions - he could've been anybody, so I just tried to be vague but I was really, really scared. He left, saying he'd be back the next day. Turned out, it was my best friend that I hadn't seen for a year - he'd just gotten back into town. Another time, I didn't recognize my aunt at the mall - it was creepy to be standing there with somebody asking about my son and husband and all, and I had no idea how much to tell them! That's what made me stop going out alone. With my mom, I always tried to remember her clothes and I know her voice, so I'm lucky that I was OK there. If I wasn't sure it was her, I'd ask for directions to something to get the person to talk. But still, OMG, so stressful!

He does seem kind of extreme, and I can understand why you wouldn't be sure you'd trust him. He thinks he's doing work he's been called to by God, so that may be part of why he's so intense about it. But still... Let me know what you find out, OK?


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## AutismDogGirl

ILGHAUS said:


> My opinion is ..... look I know dog's are amazing creatures but to "train" a dog to lock in on someone's brain waves in order to be able to find them (minus scent) is a rather novel concept.
> 
> Quote:
> He went to the elevator up to the fourth floor and indicated to stop the machine. He went to the right, down the corridor, and into a door on the left, stopping at a closed door. Dave opened the door, and Casper went into the room and sat next to a man, sitting in a chair, who was then identified as the “escaped” mentally ill patient.
> www.servicek9sforautism.com/autisim_service_dogs


link wont work  is that from dog wish site? also yeah i refuse to believe you can TRAIN a dog to lock onto someones brain waves


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## ILGHAUS

To stay in compliance with copyright law --

When quoting someone's website or an article please give a link so that credit is given to someone's work.

Don't copy major portions -- just a quote or small section and then the link.


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## PhoenixFiresky

I know the ADA says that protection cannot be counted as a task. I don't know if it specifically bars dogs that have been trained in protection skills.


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## ILGHAUS

I went back and corrected the link. It works now.


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## PhoenixFiresky

Ok - here's the link, retroactively. It IS just a small portion - this guy is wordy. 

DogWish Passive Protection Family Defense K9 Service Dogs Bob's Blog


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## PhoenixFiresky

@ ILGHAUS

I can't get the link to work - not even the revised version.


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## AutismDogGirl

PhoenixFiresky said:


> You're the first other person I've encountered with Face Blindness! Nice to meet you!  I know what you mean about not recognizing your mom. Scary! One time this guy showed up at my front door. He knew my name, asked about my kid, etc. I had no idea who he was, but he seemed to expect to be invited in, so I did, and spent the afternoon with him. I had no idea how to answer his questions - he could've been anybody, so I just tried to be vague but I was really, really scared. He left, saying he'd be back the next day. Turned out, it was my best friend that I hadn't seen for a year - he'd just gotten back into town. Another time, I didn't recognize my aunt at the mall - it was creepy to be standing there with somebody asking about my son and husband and all, and I had no idea how much to tell them! That's what made me stop going out alone. With my mom, I always tried to remember her clothes and I know her voice, so I'm lucky that I was OK there. If I wasn't sure it was her, I'd ask for directions to something to get the person to talk. But still, OMG, so stressful!
> 
> He does seem kind of extreme, and I can understand why you wouldn't be sure you'd trust him. He thinks he's doing work he's been called to by God, so that may be part of why he's so intense about it. But still... Let me know what you find out, OK?


wow that is scary! I will let you know! I am also on the autism spectrum and I think face blindness might be common among people on the autism spectrum! i learned to recognize people by thier hair and clothes. I get so stressed when people cut thier hair ecause of this. after 24 years I can ussually recognize my mum now and I can usually recognize my boyfriend. I ad one person last week ask me if I still lived in the yellow buildings still I had no idea who it was. they were sitting in thier car so I replied yeah kinda I think so,,,,,,,, I didn't recognize them and didnt know how to answer. part of why I like having my service dog trained to find people I get separated from.


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## ILGHAUS

> I can't get the link to work - not even the revised version.


?? All I do is click on the link and it pops right up. In fact I just went back to triple check it and it worked again.

I don't agree that the revision to the ADA which went into effect March of this year changed the term used for these working dogs from service k9s to service dogs as he states. I'm going to end my part in this by saying that I can not agree with his opinions, concept of training, or beliefs.


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## DogWish

*Passive protection dogs*

I would like to thank Ryan T for informing you about my blog from DogWish Inc, is a charitable non-profit organization that trains top quality Service Dogs, and places them with the disabled at cost effective rates.. Anyone that is really interested can email me personally at [email protected], and I will be glad to answer any questions you have. I have checked with several readers who felt my blog was very self explanatory, but if anyone doesn't understand I can explain.

People with disabilities are singled out by criminals often, and while my training is of an advanced level, it is not only legal, but several major concerns have found the "passive" protection dog a superior alternative to an active and aggressive dog. It is the job of any protection dog to stop anyone in the act of committing a violent act against their handler. My dogs can do that most often with a strong but passive stance. 

I have trained several active Police dogs to use passive, "no-bite" strategy in the field with great results. What I am doing is saving lives, stopping my clients from being used as victims intelligently, and responding in a positive way to help my DOGWISH handlers to be safe, several of who were brought to me after being beaten, sexually violated and abused, and battered.

We have been training passive protection dogs for some 5 years now with great results. Several of our recipients have been able to resume their lives and have found confidence, acceptance, and respect in the very places where before they were ridiculed, abused, and hurt. Their service dogs made all the difference.

DOGWISH is a non-profit that is trying to help as many as we can with quality dogs. As a Multi-National Schutzhund Champion, and FH Champion, we love our Shepherds. I also have been honored by the German Shepherd Dog Club-Working Dog Association with the Merit of Honor, for Outstanding Contribution to the German Shepherd breed in America, which was presented by Doctor Ernest Lobe. The German Shepherds we are using to breed presently are on display on our site, and are of the highest quality you can find anywhere. These are the dogs I am raising pups from for my recipients.
Our primary goal at DOGWISH is to do whatever we can to help those with disabilities, and save the lives of dogs.


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## doggiedad

1 >>>> after reading the article i don't understand
what's making you uncomfortable.

2 >>>> is what legal??

3 >>>> anxious, about what??



ASDogGeek said:


> 1 >>>> I kinda makes me uncomfortable.
> 
> 2 >>>> Is this even legal?
> 
> 3 >>>> For some reason reading this makes me anxious
> 
> DogWish Passive Protection Family Defense K9 Service Dogs Bob's Blog


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## ILGHAUS

> 1 >>>> after reading the article i don't understand
> what's making you uncomfortable.
> 
> 2 >>>> is what legal??
> 
> 3 >>>> anxious, about what??



Making her uncomfortable --
These protection dogs are being sold as service dogs and in some cases being sold as service dogs for children. 


Asking if they are legal --

Per the ADA/DOJ
Quote: “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”


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## doggiedad

got it. 

ADA/DOJ, what does DOJ mean???

"is not appropriately considered a service dog".
is it accepted or is it not accepted??



doggiedad said:


> 1 >>>>
> 
> after reading the article i don't got understand what's making you uncomfortable.
> 
> 2 >>>> is what legal??
> 
> 3 >>>> anxious, about what??





ILGHAUS said:


> Making her uncomfortable --
> These protection dogs are being sold as service dogs and in some cases being sold as service dogs for children.
> 
> 
> Asking if they are legal --
> 
> Per the ADA/DOJ
> Quote: “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”


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## Chicagocanine

ILGHAUS said:


> Asking if they are legal --
> 
> Per the ADA/DOJ
> Quote: “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”


Now I'm really confused... In this other post about protection training and service dogs, you and others said it was not illegal for a service dog to be also trained in protection or Schutzhund.


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## AutismDogGirl

doggiedad said:


> got it.
> 
> ADA/DOJ, what does DOJ mean???
> 
> "is not appropriately considered a service dog".
> is it accepted or is it not accepted??


Need to clarify the second part of your question but DOJ stands for Department of Justice


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## ILGHAUS

A Service Dog is taken out into the public to mitigate a person's legal disability. They are taken into crowded situations, situations which may be noisy, situations where the handler may be yelled at, stressful situations at times, times when the handler may have to have painful or uncomfortable medical procedures, times where the handler may be unresponsive or unable to function in an appropriate manner. These dogs must be solid, non-aggressive to strangers, a non-threat to the public. It is never appropriate for a Service Dog to ever jump at, snarl, bark in an aggressive manner, or act threatening. Service Dogs are in some cases the first dogs ever owned by an individual. Handlers are taught how to care for their dog, how to reinforce obedience, and trained and worked in a postive or at most only mild corrections used. In many cases a PWD is unable to use any type of physical control over their dog.

In the sport of SchH. a dog is worked with a helper using a sleeve. In most cases the dog is under the control of an adult. The dog is never used to walk through a crowd to attack, to make decisions who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. The dog is never trained to go for the back, the legs, the face of the helper. Even with this, there are relatively few Service Dogs who have ever been trained in any type of bite work. The bite work in SchH is a grey area where even the SD community is not in agreement if it should be allowed. I am unaware of any court cases on this matter being tested as of yet. 

In being trained for a personal protection dog the dog is trained to subdue an attacker and to use force to keep the individual away from the owner/handler. A dog trained in personal protection must have its training maintained and the handler must stay in control and continue to be watchful of their dog whenever other individuals are around their dog. The handler must always be mindful of the safety on others when people approach them and their dog. The handler of a personal protection trained dog must have handling skills way above that of the average dog owner. The Dept. of Justice has stated that a dog trained in protection work is not an appropriate Service Dog.

Quote from the Dept. of Justice:
“an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”

As to this particular discussion, even though there may be a section stating a dog is trained in "passive protection" (with no clear cut statement of exactly that is) there are also places where it is stated that the dog will do whatever it takes to protect the handler. There is also areas where it is stated that these dogs will be sold to be used and handled by children to protect them from bullies. In one instance there is even a reference to bullies at a child's school. Those people who are stating a concern have read more then one cover article but also other articles in the blog series by the founder and main trainer of this organization. 

In all postings and by all of those expressing concern it IS the opinions and thoughts of the posters and never claimed to be expert or legal decisions. None of us here have that ability or authority.


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## AutismDogGirl

ILGHAUS said:


> A Service Dog is taken out into the public to mitigate a person's legal disability. They are taken into crowded situations, situations which may be noisy, situations where the handler may be yelled at, stressful situations at times, times when the handler may have to have painful or uncomfortable medical procedures, times where the handler may be unresponsive or unable to function in an appropriate manner. These dogs must be solid, non-aggressive to strangers, a non-threat to the public. It is never appropriate for a Service Dog to ever jump at, snarl, bark in an aggressive manner, or act threatening. Service Dogs are in some cases the first dogs ever owned by an individual. Handlers are taught how to care for their dog, how to reinforce obedience, and trained and worked in a postive or at most only mild corrections used. In many cases a PWD is unable to use any type of physical control over their dog.
> 
> In the sport of SchH. a dog is worked with a helper using a sleeve. In most cases the dog is under the control of an adult. The dog is never used to walk through a crowd to attack, to make decisions who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. The dog is never trained to go for the back, the legs, the face of the helper. Even with this, there are relatively few Service Dogs who have ever been trained in any type of bite work. The bite work in SchH is a grey area where even the SD community is not in agreement if it should be allowed. I am unaware of any court cases on this matter being tested as of yet.
> 
> In being trained for a personal protection dog the dog is trained to subdue an attacker and to use force to keep the individual away from the owner/handler. A dog trained in personal protection must have its training maintained and the handler must stay in control and continue to be watchful of their dog whenever other individuals are around their dog. The handler must always be mindful of the safety on others when people approach them and their dog. The handler of a personal protection trained dog must have handling skills way above that of the average dog owner. The Dept. of Justice has stated that a dog trained in protection work is not an appropriate Service Dog.
> 
> Quote from the Dept. of Justice:
> “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”
> 
> As to this particular discussion, even though there may be a section stating a dog is trained in "passive protection" (with no clear cut statement of exactly that is) there are also places where it is stated that the dog will do whatever it takes to protect the handler. There is also areas where it is stated that these dogs will be sold to be used and handled by children to protect them from bullies. In one instance there is even a reference to bullies at a child's school. Those people who are stating a concern have read more then one cover article but also other articles in the blog series by the founder and main trainer of this organization.
> 
> In all postings and by all of those expressing concern it IS the opinions and thoughts of the posters and never claimed to be expert or legal decisions. None of us here have that ability or authority.



Agreed 100 percent!


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## PhoenixFiresky

@ ILGHAUS

Well, NOW the link works. Go figure. Must be my IE acting up. Sorry!


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## ladylaw203

ILGHAUS said:


> by an individual. Handlers are taught how to care for their dog, how to reinforce obedience, and trained and worked in a postive or at most only mild corrections used. In many cases a PWD is unable to use any type of physical control over their dog.
> 
> In the sport of SchH. a dog is worked with a helper using a sleeve. In most cases the dog is under the control of an adult. The dog is never used to walk through a crowd to attack, to make decisions who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.
> Quote from the Dept. of Justice:
> “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”
> 
> .


 
Yes, and after spending well over twenty years training police service dogs here is one thing to always take into considseration. Easy to teach the right dog to bite. Now the solid out or release is another story. I refuse to train any true PP dogs for civilians. Most folks are real good for a while with maintenance training then life gets in the way. The solid out is something that MUST be trained forever. Also, some homeowner's policies have issues with PP dogs. Many things to consider before doing this...


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## Redhawk

Don't know about the guy who trains the dogs, but I do believe dogs can sense anger/danger and emotional energy in other people. However, they CANT make a human-type judgment on how to handle the situation given the context. 

If you are in a public place and encounter someone unstable and dangerous often the best thing to do is just leave, if you have access to your car, etc. A dog will not reason that out though, as they work on emotions and instinct alone. A dog doesn't think about whether the car is nearby, does that person have a weapon, etc.

I do want my dog to alert me (in some way) to that which goes unnoticed by me, because I know for a fact they notice more about people than we do, but I DEFINITELY want to be the one making the final decision on how it is all handled.

The other thing, as the poster above mentioned, is that it doesn't matter in any field how well the dog is trained if the actual handler they are going to doesn't know how to handle them. Giving a trained protection dog to a child... eh? That's cwwwwwwwazy! No way their parents will ever ground them again, coz the kid has wonder dog to bite of their arm when parents get upset at child! Woohoo!

I think I could have used a protection dog when I was younger, come to think of it...


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## PhoenixFiresky

In his defense, the guy did say that the dog would have to be ordered to attack (at least the part I read said that) - it wouldn't just do so on it's own. Still, speaking as someone with Asperger's who is also the parent of an Asperger's child with other MAJOR emotional difficulties, I would not have given such a dog to MY son. Or if I did, I wouldn't tell him the command for biting. Even now, at age 24, I don't think he has the judgment to handle it, because he's extremely emotional and very impulsive, and he can be aggressive when he believes he's been mistreated. Expecting a dog to tell when it's OK to obey a bite command from him would just be a bad idea.

So I guess I think it might be OK for some people, but not a good idea for others. But it's hard to see how the training center would distinguish - and it doesn't sound as if it even tries to. 

To me, the dog knowing to alert to suspicious people and then to feign aggressiveness by putting itself between the handler and the person and barking/snarling dangerously is one thing - and even having it advance while snarling would be OK. Biting is quite another. And I don't think that common bullying, such as rock-throwing, warrants a bite response. For one thing, the consequences for the dog who has bitten a human (and especially a child!) are just too severe.


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## AutismDogGirl

PhoenixFiresky said:


> In his defense, the guy did say that the dog would have to be ordered to attack (at least the part I read said that) - it wouldn't just do so on it's own. Still, speaking as someone with Asperger's who is also the parent of an Asperger's child with other MAJOR emotional difficulties, I would not have given such a dog to MY son. Or if I did, I wouldn't tell him the command for biting. Even now, at age 24, I don't think he has the judgment to handle it, because he's extremely emotional and very impulsive, and he can be aggressive when he believes he's been mistreated. Expecting a dog to tell when it's OK to obey a bite command from him would just be a bad idea.
> 
> So I guess I think it might be OK for some people, but not a good idea for others. But it's hard to see how the training center would distinguish - and it doesn't sound as if it even tries to.
> 
> To me, the dog knowing to alert to suspicious people and then to feign aggressiveness by putting itself between the handler and the person and barking/snarling dangerously is one thing - and even having it advance while snarling would be OK. Biting is quite another. And I don't think that common bullying, such as rock-throwing, warrants a bite response. For one thing, the consequences for the dog who has bitten a human (and especially a child!) are just too severe.



but a service dog is not to show its teeth or bark at a person. I believe that would disqualify it not 100 percent on that


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## PhoenixFiresky

Good point, although it does seem to me that if the owner's life is clearly in danger, that should be an acceptable exception. Most dogs will get aggressive if the owner's life is in danger, because their instinct is to act to defend the pack. You can't really blame them for that - SDs are still dogs. Very well trained, well behaved dogs, but dogs nonetheless. 

Which is not to say that I think they should be TRAINED to do so.


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## ILGHAUS

> Which is not to say that I think they should be TRAINED to do so.



:thumbup: 

Per the ADA/DOJ:
_“an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”_


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## CaseysGSD

this is a bad comment and I know not to judge a book by it's cover or deem a breed dangerous just by the way it looks...all that being said....That first pictures SCARES me!!! It supposed to be cute but I wanna pull that little girl into my arms and away from the dog that could easily fit her whole head in it's mouth!!!! (I have two little girls so that's prob why!)


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## ladylaw203

In his defense, the guy did say that the dog would have to be ordered to attack (at least the part I read said that) - it wouldn't just do so on it's own.


There is absolutely NO such thing as 100% with a dog. AND a dog's compliance to training is related to the handler's maintenance training. That is why I think this is a bad idea. I have certified dogs for many many years for the largest police service dog org in the nation and I can tell you that the biggest problem for police dogs is the out and the recall. Easy to teach one to bite. The control is something that must be worked on continuously


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## AutismDogGirl

Another thing that worries me is if my kids was bullying another I would not want to have a dog threatening him or making choice on how to handle this situation!!!!!!!!!! That is my job and it would likely be something like apologizing tp the kid and then spending the day with the kid while I supervised and reading about the kids disability. It is the teachers and parents job not the dogs to hanble bullies. And what if say my kid is the one. With this dog? Bullies will be bullies. What if the kid hicks rocks at the dog and my kid? I want the dog to lead my child AWAY from this maybe to a teacher or if the dog makes any alarm sound a howl could do, it is non aggressive and would get the teachers attention. I don't want the dog deciding of he should bite the rock thrower or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or growling and snarling at the child!


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## AbbyK9

A couple of thoughts ...

First - 

It's very easy for you to keep this fellow from advertising his services on your group if you are the group owner. Simply post to the group that nobody may advertise any kind of sales or services as the nature of the group is not to promote any business but to share information about Autism Service Dogs. 

If he has any actual knowledge to share with your group members beyond advertising his business, he will do so. Or he will leave the group and spam another place with his advertising. Either way, you come out ahead.

Second -

My first concern would not be whether Service Dogs can / should / need to be trained in protection, but whether any of the claims he makes about his business and background are true. As my husband likes to say, "Trust but verify". If everything he claims is a lie - or even just a large part of what he claims - it is no longer relevant how or why he trains protection for Service Dogs - he'll be discredited and people will stop giving him money.

It's important for people to research a business or trainer before giving them their money because there are many out there who are just bad and/or don't know what they're doing and some just plain lie. If you're going to spend several thousand dollars (I understand his trained dogs sell between $6,000 and $10,000 each) you should be doing your research before handing that money over for a product.

A quick search about this person brings up primarily his own promotional sites and some complaints over at the Better Business Bureau and other Complaints type websites. I can't find anything about him having taught any "police dog" seminars anywhere online except his own websites. (Maybe this was all super-secret, seeing how Delta Force flew people to the Caribbean just to see him?)

I did find that Taylor has been investigated in California between 1983 and 1989 for training protection dogs without a proper license. In 1989 he was charged for operating a business without a license and animal cruelty. He plea bargained, got two years probation and a $175 fine for not having a proper license and the animal cruelty charges were dropped. At the time, he claimed that he was "not training dogs for protection, only for Schutzhund".


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## AbbyK9

Also, it may be of interest what ROCAM International had to say about Mr. Taylor's claim:



> Bob Taylor no longer is used by ROCAM International. We have stopped using his services and are currently using another dog handler out of Boston. Bob Taylor will not be used again by ROCAM International for any project.




and




> We no longer use Bob Taylor, we have never had him as an employee although we did use him on a contract for one client.
> 
> I do not know how or where the idea of being "..superior in his field by the UK..", comes from, that is simply a mindboggling statement to say the least.
> 
> We are not a military organisation and are actually Singapore Headquartered. ROCAM is a security risk consultancy, and like many others most of our operational staff are former Tier 1 Military.
> 
> I cannot recommend Bob as a person I would trust to conduct the task requested, he constantly seeks to sell more, make inappropriate suggestions about what is required and has a tendency to be obsessive about unrelated issues.
> 
> I will request that he remove the statement from his website, and thank you for making me aware of this.
> 
> We have now recruited a new K9 trainer from Massachusetts and feel comfortable that they are a sustainable business partner. Most importantly we have retained our long standing relationship with our client (6 years in December).


Sounds to me like Bob Taylor is a pretty good liar with a shiny website. Shame people keep giving him their money.


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## AutismDogGirl

AbbyK9 said:


> Also, it may be of interest what ROCAM International had to say about Mr. Taylor's claim:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds to me like Bob Taylor is a pretty good liar with a shiny website. Shame people keep giving him their money.



Wow I'm impressed you are great at research! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!! I get overwhelmed whe I tried to do that.


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## AbbyK9

It was pretty easy, actually.  I just emailed them and asked.


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## AutismDogGirl

AbbyK9 said:


> It was pretty easy, actually.  I just emailed them and asked.


Lol I should have thought of that. So would you say I need to warn people to avoid him? Is his organization even ligit? Did you find anything else in your research?


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## Lauri & The Gang

ASDogGeek said:


> Lol I should have thought of that. So would you say I need to warn people to avoid him? Is his organization even ligit? Did you find anything else in your research?


If the group is YOURS you could email the same people AbbyK9 did, ask the same questions and ask permission to post their response to your group.

Then, if they say yes, post their responses to the group and let your members be the judge.


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## AbbyK9

My personal opinion, based on my research and what I've posted here is that I would avoid this person and look for a different trainer. Here is why:

(1) He is not honest about his accomplishments. As we've seen above, his accomplishments can either not be verified or appear to be severely inflated. I would be very wary doing business with someone who is not honest about his background and experience.

(2) He trains protection as a Service Dog task, including for dogs paired with children. As protection is not considered a valid task by ADA/DOJ and ADA/DOJ are very specific that a Service Dog should never be trained this type of task, I would seriously question his knowledge regarding Service Dog training and requirements. 

(3) Some of the statements made on the website are just plain ludicrous when it comes to dogs and training dogs. If I knew nothing else about this company, this website would turn me away from ever hiring them --> DogWish Inc, DogWish Service Dogs


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## AutismDogGirl

AbbyK9 said:


> My personal opinion, based on my research and what I've posted here is that I would avoid this person and look for a different trainer. Here is why:
> 
> (1) He is not honest about his accomplishments. As we've seen above, his accomplishments can either not be verified or appear to be severely inflated. I would be very wary doing business with someone who is not honest about his background and experience.
> 
> (2) He trains protection as a Service Dog task, including for dogs paired with children. As protection is not considered a valid task by ADA/DOJ and ADA/DOJ are very specific that a Service Dog should never be trained this type of task, I would seriously question his knowledge regarding Service Dog training and requirements.
> 
> (3) Some of the statements made on the website are just plain ludicrous when it comes to dogs and training dogs. If I knew nothing else about this company, this website would turn me away from ever hiring them --> DogWish Inc, DogWish Service Dogs



I have no plans to ever do bussiness with him! My concern is for my members! He added me to his Facebook group and I see al these people siting up to get a dog and I feel sick I am leaving because if I go in I wll want to put a warning out to the group.


As for my group I know I need to do something. I know one of my members posted a warning in an autism mom group about this organization. I think I will make her a moderator for my group she has no fear of angering people as I do.


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## DogWish

Thank you for being somewhat impartial, and thinking it through. As a National Protection dog champion who has been doing this work for some 35 years with thousands of dogs, and has never had anyone sued, never had a dog bite a kid, an innocent stranger, etc. you might say my work kind of speaks for itself. I'm amazed that in this day and age anyone would not want their child properly, at least somewhat protected in public....many do. It's not really a big deal, my service dogs, as I have stated, fultill several functions for their handlers, not just three, and I AM very objective about what I do, and for whom. Being responsible, and not making mistakes that might hurt either my clients, or anyone else, is a major concern for me.


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## DogWish

I guess I work with different dogs than you've seen. My dogs are smart. My dogs would not try to bite anyone because that is not their function. My dogs would not leave their handler to go after someone. My dogs are trained to alert, and respond passively. We use great discretion is placing a dog with these capabilities, and do the training that is necessary to make SURE they are right. My dogs perform several functions such as mobility, seizure alert, anxiety control, search & rescue, etc.. Many people with anxiety disorders have tremendous fear, and these dogs give them the confidence to get out and do what they need, and go home. So far we have NEVER HAD INCORRECT PERFORMANCE, OR A SINGLE situation where ONE of the dogs responded the wrong way.
I THINK THAT'S PRETTY GOOD. What we are doing is saving lives, and making life better for everyone, including the dogs.


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## DogWish

As for the comments by Ms. Geek.I have spent the last several years of my life helping many people with Aspergers and Autism, improving their lives, and making them better. Instead of attacking me, why don't you go out, find five people who need help, and do something worth while. Everyday I do something good for someone I know, and something good for someone I DON'T KNOW. Every day I go out of my way to help someone with a disability. Every day. How about you?


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## ILGHAUS

> Instead of attacking me, why don't you go out, find five people who need help, and do something worth while.


Before making statements against someone not helping perhaps you might want to consider that you possibly do not know what various individuals who post regularly here do for the disabled community.


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## ILGHAUS

I will at this time make a general warning for anyone who may have forgotten the rules they agreed to when signing up on this forum - you may want to reread them or possibly put yourself in a position of receiving a formal Mod warning.


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## Chicagocanine

DogWish said:


> I guess I work with different dogs than you've seen. My dogs are smart. My dogs would not try to bite anyone because that is not their function. My dogs would not leave their handler to go after someone.


So to clarify, your dogs are not trained to bite? They do not bite on cue or bite if their handler is threatened?
If that is the case what does the "passive protection" you train actually entail (what behavior is the dog doing that is providing protection)? 
This is what people were commenting on about the webpage, it is not really clear at all what kind of "protection" these dogs are doing, or what it is they are trained to do in response to a threat.


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## AbbyK9

> Instead of attacking me, why don't you go out, find five people who need help, and do something worth while.


I do not see where anyone on this forum has "attacked" you.

ASDogGeek was concerned about your (apparently repeated) advertising on her group, especially as her group is not an advertising platform and she is uncomfortable with the idea of Service Dogs being taught any protection tasks. She has every right to be uncomfortable with that. She is a Service Dog owner/handler and the impression others give with their dogs can and do affect her.

ILGHAUS is an extremely experienced handler, trainer, and Service Dog advocate, who is also extremely well versed in laws regarding Service Dogs. She has questioned, and with good reason, the fact that you train Service Dogs in protection tasks.

Chicagocanine and PhoenixFiresky questioned (and with good reason) the lack of information presented in your incredibly verbose texts on your websites.

Ladylaw, whose real (and non-inflated) background can be found in her signature, questioned some of the legal aspects (such as insurance) and the claims (such as 100% success rate) of your training based on her extensive background working and training dogs.

As for me, I think anyone should question the listing of accomplishments on your website. That ROCAM quote really stood out to me because I know who they are ... and they certainly are not "a leading military organization." When I asked them about you, they had nothing nice to say about you or your work ... actually, they pointed out that they threatened you with litigation if you did not remove your "mindboggling" (their words) statements about working with them from your website.

Considering this, why would I (or anyone else) believe a thing you have written on your website or posted to this forum? Like I said ... TRUST BUT VERIFY. And that's not an attack - it's common sense.

As for the snipe on how people should "go out, find five people who need help, and do something worth while" - spare me. You've got no idea what the people who've posted in this thread do to help others on a daily basis without getting on a high horse about it.


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