# ZL:XII



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have what appears to be a black sable male here, 63 days old. All I can say for him right now is he’s a whiner with a wimpy bite and disappointingly low prey drive. “Professionally” vaccinated weekly plus a 5 way (I call animal abuse!). Hopefully he’ll feel better soon… Frozen (AI) grandsire was purported to have been a real “throwback.”
I don’t pretend to be an expert, but I do know a little bit about genetics. According to the current Scientific consensus, I try to think of “paternal” as “nuclear DNA”, and I try to think of “maternal” as “mitochondrial DNA.” In order to squeeze this many generations into an 800 pixel pedigree, one must be willing to think in very broad generalizations...









All nuclear DNA in this pedigree stems from ZL:XII, and all paternal gggg-grand dams descend from klodo. The mitochondrial DNA behind the sire springs from lene hundin & sali von der krone (mother daughter duo, late 1800’s). Of note back there is phylax SVALT 990551. Again, I’m no expert, but these are the only living GSD pedigrees I’ve ever seen that don’t come from hektor? Both maternal grand dams (“mitochondrial DNA”) dead end @ “zps no info.”
To put it politely, this looks like awfully “close breeding” to me… what say you?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

berno von der seeweise said:


> , 63 days old. All I can say for him right now is he’s a whiner with a wimpy bite and disappointingly low prey drive.


Is this for real?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I suppose I should qualify, I'm a little biased against him because the only thing he seems to have learned from his breeder was bad habits, and I've seen for myself what too many vaccinations too soon can do to a pup.
I've been away from gsd for 20 yrs. In that time I've trained schnauzer and dobe, using prey as a foundation for training, which made it very easy. I've also evaluated a number of litters. Compared to this black sable, all had phenomenal drives and grips.
I am aware of the prey vs civil debate, and I'm the first to admit I'm probably in over way my head here  In this pup's defense I'll add that he passed the umbrella test with flying colors and isn't the least bit gunshy. He actually seems to enjoy both. Very inquisitive.
Can we get back to the bloodline/pedigree now?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sorry - used to real pedigrees....this gives me a headache....not a geneticist, just a breeder with a pretty good knowledge of pedigrees....don't even understand what you are asking here.....when you go back far enough, all dogs go back to original SV foundation lines...



Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think bias against this puppy is on you, not him. So glad you found a redeeming quality in your 9 week old whiny, no drive puppy..

I'm with Lee. I have no idea what the point to your question is or what you are trying to ask. Just post the real pedigree.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I have no idea what the point to your question is or what you are trying to ask. Just post the real pedigree.


 this is "the real" pedigree, and hence the point










So I just did some more clicking on the database, specifically the lines that dead end in old czechoslovakia. Sure enough they took me right back to ZL:XII as well.



wolfstraum said:


> when you go back far enough, all dogs go back to original SV foundation lines...


No, this entire pedigree comes from one lone dog. Nothing “hypothetical” about it. In terms of “genetic bottleneck” this may as well be a standard poodle pedigree. If it’s just this pup, or just that litter, or even just that breeder, I guess it doesn’t really matter. But if this pedigree is typical... I don’t mean to be negative. I’m only being realistic.

The breeder assumed that straw wasn’t closely related to his girls. Next time he’ll probably use a multi-sire cocktail, only to get the same pedigree.

In any event, if it isn’t already apparent, you can bet your boots we’re going to get right down to the bottom of ZL:XII in very short order here with little utz vom regenschirmbeißerhaus. No cult of breed. No cult of type. No grading curve. Strictly pass or fail. On a positive note, he got a nice grip on my pantleg today and I drug him around pretty good. I’ll keep you posted.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Maybe you need to go to a science/genetic board....this diagram is not a "pedigree" although in pedigree format....and your "question" is not clear ....sorry - can't help


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

The pedigree is just displaying the old DDR Zuchtlinien, if you post the pedigree which includes the names of the dogs, you will get more help and insight from others.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> this is "the real" pedigree, and hence the point
> 
> View attachment 557897
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are on about. But I can guarantee this is not a pedigree.
ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal
It is absolutely not possible for a dog to be his own sire. Sorry. Also the dogs has been dead for about 50 years or so. Not closely related to anything breathing today.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Sabis mom. The question is still nonsensical but at least we know the basis!



DDR Zuchtlinien



That number simply signifies a sire LINE as tracked by the DDR. It's entirely possible to have the same sire line top and bottom if the number carried thru several generations because it's connected to the offspring (and their offspring and so on) of one particular dog.

That doesn't mean they are inbred. It's like my gggg grandfather having a number assigned to all his progeny and their offspring. By the time it gets to our generation, we're barely related.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

There also were several changes through the years. Adding and subtracting names and lines including ZL:XII if I am reading it correctly Found and posted the info in a new thread.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm not sure what you are on about.


 Well my large animal vet friend who did the AI on the side, received the pup & akc application in the bargain. Having no use for it herself, she dropped him off at my place. Therefore I am willing to concede that I have no real right to complain. 



Sabis mom said:


> I can guarantee this is not a pedigree.


spoken like a true gsd breeder. I have no doubt you'd give me that guarantee in writing. 



Sabis mom said:


> It is absolutely not possible for a dog to be his own sire.


 don't even bother trying to pettifog on this thread



Sabis mom said:


> the dog has been dead for about 50 years or so. Not closely related to anything breathing today.


 Ah, ok, I see what you mean. Little gründereffekt vom flaschenhals is like 22.5 generations removed from_ that dog_. I should really just shut up and tack another title on his ped, then breed him to another czech import cousin, right? What could possibly go wrong?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Heartandsoul said:


> Line XII dogs include Amigo vom Odland, Arek v uns Heimaturt, Aron v Sachsentram, Bac vom Sachsentraum, Bilbo & Bullet v Schladebacher Wäldchen, Blek v Haus Hess, Candy vd Knappenmuhle, Carl-Heinz v Wartneberg, DeJuco Gizmo, Diego v Thostgrund Bach, Dino and Duke v Felsenschloss, Doc v Benedict, Don v Furstendamm, Don v Rio, Dragon v Felsenschloss, Dux v Haus Kading, Eddie vd Old Lady, Eggo v Ammerberg, Eik and Enzo v Clausberg, Enzo v Gräfental, Filou v Kaolinsee, Frei v Baruther Land, Gero v Guckelhorst, Gero v Rockenberger Schloss, Golf v Ritterberg, Hector & Hugo a.d. Espenstätte, Henk vd Junkerheide, Ingo & Kaiser vom Casa Nossa, Iroc v Haus Iris, Ivo von Hauental, Janosch vd Sperlingsbucht, Just Fagen v Kistha Haus (Rookie), Kliff v Redefiner Land, Klockow's Uncas, Lärry v Wolfseck, Lux v Kameruner Eck, *Mentor v Haus Iris, Napoleon v Weltwitz, Pluto v Königswaldereck, Puck v Gräfental, Quaid v Alt-Ostland, Quando vd Grauen v Monstab, Queick v Ludwigseck, Rasputin vom Flossgraben, Ron v Ludwigseck, Satan De L'Avia, Tino v Felsenschloss, Vulcan v Huerta Hof, Willi, Wocker & Woddy vd Old Lady, Yasso v Schäferliesel, ...


 thanks for the help


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I’m just curious but is your pup a mix of Czech and DDR? Czech has their own numeric system that follows the sires lines and is a bit easier to understand.

I really have no business being in this conversation other than I’m just very curious but seems to me that the Czech sometimes used DDR lines but DDR did not use Czech lines?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Heartandsoul said:


> I’m just curious but is your pup a mix of Czech and DDR?


 in terms of genetics it's easiest to think/speak in terms of "patriarchy." ie; ddr x czech, or more correctly, ddr x z Ps


Heartandsoul said:


> Czech sometimes used DDR lines but DDR did not use Czech lines?


 DDR founders came from pre WWII gsd lines. The old czech (z Ps) lines were almost exclusively founded on DDR sires. Some dams trace back to designations like cspkp, chspk, ukk (et al). As far as I can guess, those were eastern bloc conformation org #'s? The only other exceptions I'm aware of were appx 4th generation gsd x carpathian wolf backcross dams bred by czech & slovak military. I'm sure my saying so will start a big 'ol hootenanny here but that's where they appear to go nevertheless.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Thanks Sabis mom. The question is still nonsensical but at least we know the basis!
> 
> 
> 
> DDR Zuchtlinien


"ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal
ZL: XIII (13) Klodo v Boxberg"

speaking of nonsensical, klodo v boxberg(ZL:XIII) was utz v haus schutting's (ZL:XII) sire... 
so I guess another annotation is in order? Look at all that diversity!











Jax08 said:


> By the time it gets to our generation, we're barely related.


 if you say so, jax.... 

california's entire holstein herd is founded on 2 bulls, and they're doing just fine, right? that's only 100% more foundation sires than we find in little gründereffekt vom flaschenhals ped

The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addi... - PubMed - NCBI


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you already know the answers, why are you asking?


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Klodo v Boxberg was born in 1921, a mere 20 years after the breed was first created. The vast majority, if not all, GSDs go back to Klodo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty much all modern breeds were started with very close line breeding and often times inbreeding. I think your oversimplified 'pedigree' is not of much use when looking at genetic diversity.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I better get this down here while I have it straight: ZL:XIII klodo vom boxberg sired ZL:XII utz vom haus schutting AND grandsired ZL:VIII odin vom stolzenfels

also, for the sake of this discussion we should clarify, "inbreeding" = as closely related as 2 can get (sire x daughter, son x dam, full sibling x full sibling). Anywhere we find a skip or space (spaces) between 2 individuals, we're looking @ "linebreeding"


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

"akc black sable" but I don't know what his coat will do?



















he loves his trampoline



















his grips are coming along nicely


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

_Let's stop the sarcastic remarks please.It's an interesting thread for those interested in lineage and we would like to keep it open._


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> The vast majority, if not all, GSDs go back to Klodo.


eh, apparently I've learned a lot in the past 3 days? Researching everybody else's peds around here it seems you find klodo at some point in most. This boy's ped however does appear to be the exception/atypical/extreme. Let's all hope anyway. Because I mean every slot goes right back to utz, except one, and that one goes to utz klodo. I mean it's just utz, utz, utz, utz, klodo, utz, utz, utz, and so on... and he bears no resemblance to utz whatsoever...

I readily admit to knowing nothing of color genetics? apparently neither does his breeder  according to this Color Genetics in German Shepherds he appears to be "average sable" at best. Hard to imagine he won't turn out a much lighter "wash" in coat color than any of those those examples? Apparently akc only recognizes "sable?"

I hear tell some conformation folks actually dye their dogs various colors before the big show  (other breeds, I mean. not gsd).

before I forget to mention it, when calculating inbreeding coefficients (_even on an entire historical pedigree mind you, all the way back_) always leave an extra column of blank spaces at the very beginning, in order to account for every individuals unrecorded sire and dam. Not doing so will skew your results. The shorter the ped, the greater the skew.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just a couple of observations and a possible answer for you.

Your pup looks pretty confident on that trampoline, pretty wobbly footing and willing /eager to play tug on it. Seems a good first indication of tactile soundness. 

The thickness of your pants look like they would be great for decoy wear. Thick and sturdy.

If you know what color his coat was the first week of life, rule of thumb it’s a good indication of what his adult color will be like. Don’t know much about color genetics though.

Edit: just saw the link, good chart.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Heartandsoul said:


> If you know what color his coat was the first week of life, rule of thumb it’s a good indication of what his adult color will be like. Don’t know much about color genetics though.


Unfortunately I don't and no way to find out. My vet friend did the AI onsite and never really looked at the litter. He's quite stable and a TON of observable nerve. However he's way behind for his age in a lot of ways, compared to what I'm used to. For now I'll give him the benefit of doubt and blame it on his breeder's lack of conditioning. Any litter exposed to me would have outgrown that little trampoline a long time ago. Come to think of it, I have to sort a ton of recycling tomorrow. May as well take full advantage of it. No bite suits here, but I do have a little jute tug and a few different size sleeves. We'll have to work our way up to that.

anyway, thanks again


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m reading this for the first time, and going...What??? The dog was whiney and wimpy 4 days ago and now he’s coming along nicely? Uh...ok...

For the OP, why not go with what you have and use your training talent to turn him into a great dog?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> For the OP, why not go with what you have and use your training talent to turn him into a great dog?


 That's more or less the plan, if indeed he has it in him. But life is short, and I am not young, and he was a freebie, so we'll just have to see how it all unfolds.


LuvShepherds said:


> I’m reading this for the first time, and going...What??? The dog was whiney and wimpy 4 days ago and now he’s coming along nicely? Uh...ok...


I know his gut/intestinal tract were way off. I assume breeder free fed because he was swelled up like an overstuffed sausage when he got here. According to paperwork breeder started taking him to pet vet for vaccinations @ 2 weeks old, for a total of 5 visits. I expect his brain swelled from fever. I dosed his food with digestive enzymes for a few days and that seemed to clean out his gut pretty good. He seems to be coming along ok.

Judging from this boy’s behavior upon his arrival, I am able to deduce a number of things about his breeder. First off, he obviously wasn’t even properly weaned yet. I could tell by the way he was jumping/pawing at my cabinets/countertops he was used to his mother counter surfing and sharing the loot. He’d obviously never been on leash before, and on our first real walk we encountered a bag of trash on the side of the road. When I saw it up ahead I thought to myself ‘large object rustling in the wind, let’s see how he reacts.’ It obviously wasn’t his first big bag of trash. He assumed we found “a great big bag of treats” and tore right into it joyfully. These are all learned behaviors with big rewards, imprinted very early on. I expect he will struggle against these impulses for the rest of his life, and I feel bad for anyone who paid hard earned cash for a littermate. Luckily I have a kennel out front, so there he be.

He’s attempted to mount every adult dog he’s encountered here. If that equates to dominance, he’s far and away the most dominant pup I’ve ever seen. I’m beginning to wonder if it has anything to do with not having a sire onsite? Or never being fully weaned? Maybe? I’ve really never seen anything like it.

To be perfectly clear now, the pant leg in that earlier photo is a refrigiwear suit and he is not allowed to bite it. He’s been laying on this old plastic tray inside the barn every morning while we do our chores here. Today we were just kicking back outside afterwards and rather than lay on the wet ground, he went back in the barn and got his tray, drug it out by us, and promptly flopped down on it. I was pleasantly surprised by that level of intelligence.








does this even look like a ddr puppy coat at all?

Both maternal great great grand dams were czech, so each (theoretically/hypothetically) contributes 1/16 czech mitochondrial dna to the pedigree. Combined that translates to 1/8, so we’re looking at a balance of 7/8 “ZL:XII” pedigree. Where I come from, 7/8 is “thoroughbred” or “full blooded.” If this was like a black angus bull pedigree, or a merino ram pedigree, it would be the cat’s pajamas for sure. But surfing both modern and historical ddr peds online make his pedigree look crazy.

But devils advocate now, or just for the sake of argument, lets pretend the breeder knew exactly what he was doing. In that case, what could he have possibly been trying to breed for with a ped like this? Fashion? Pet? Sport? Protection? What? Judging from pup’s obvious learned behaviors/bad habits, I can’t imagine performance was even on the breeder’s radar. According to what I’ve read online, ddr is notoriously slow to mature and he definitely doesn’t have the prey drive for sport. I’m trying to nurture best I can, but he’s just not into it yet. I get maybe 10 minutes out of him on the reizangel and he looses interest. Absolutely nowhere near the high flying preydrives I’m accustomed to.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Judging from this boy’s behavior upon his arrival, I am able to deduce a number of things about his breeder. First off, he obviously wasn’t even properly weaned yet. I could tell by the way he was jumping/pawing at my cabinets/countertops he was used to his mother counter surfing and sharing the loot. He’d obviously never been on leash before, and on our first real walk we encountered a bag of trash on the side of the road. When I saw it up ahead I thought to myself ‘large object rustling in the wind, let’s see how he reacts.’ It obviously wasn’t his first big bag of trash. He assumed we found “a great big bag of treats” and tore right into it joyfully. These are all learned behaviors with big rewards, imprinted very early on. I expect he will struggle against these impulses for the rest of his life, and I feel bad for anyone who paid hard earned cash for a littermate. Luckily I have a kennel out front, so there he be.


Uh.... wow. This honestly seems like a troll to me. You have unbelievable and frankly insane expectations for a puppy. My puppy came from an absolutely stellar breeder with amazing socialization and upbringing. He jumped and scratched at the counters the first few days home while I was making his food. His mother certainly never “counter surfed and shared the loot” ???? He also would have torn into a trash bag on the street if I’d let him. It’s called a puppy that has no training and does what it wants when it wants. That’s what training is. My boy would never dream of behaving that way now, so I’m not sure why you seem to think your puppy will “struggle with these impulses” for the rest of it’s life. Training. It’s a thing. Puppies are not born perfect. They aren’t perfect when they come home at 8 weeks no matter what the breeder does. I’m honestly shocked at this whole thing.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not talking cute little puppy paws on my cabinets, sniffing at food above. I'm talking MANIC. Learned behavior. As stated earlier, I have conditioned a few litters for evaluation by others, and I've evaluated a few litters that were conditioned by others. I know what I'm looking at when it comes to such matters. 
I'm certainly not "indicting" the breed at large here. Any attempt on my part to do so would be utterly ludicrous. The breed's reputation stands on it's on merits, folks. No need to defend it from anyone, and most certainly not from the likes of me. Anyway, like I say, he seems to be coming along, so I assume it's on the breeder. If it were a matter of inbreeding depression he wouldn't be making this much progress.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

If you want help on some of his behaviors why not start a new thread and explain what the problems are? There are lots of people out there who can help you. 

He is a fine color for a DDR. He's not going to be that dark. I'm thinking he'll probably be on the lighter side of a black sable. (very lighter side)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would rather not comment on behavior in a pedigree thread. I agree with the previous post, please start a behavior and training thread where we can comfortably discuss that.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

you don't want him, I'll take him. Thanks


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> why not start a new thread


 I didn't come here to stir up all the boards. One thread is enough for now. I think it's best I just stay way down here at the bottom where I’m easy to ignore. Hopefully, sooner or later, someone intimately familiar with this bloodline will ramble on through and enlighten us all.



Kathrynil said:


> He is a fine color for a DDR. He's not going to be that dark. I'm thinking he'll probably be on the lighter side of a black sable. (very lighter side)


thanks








I’ve never had any personal preference about coat color and still don’t. It’s just that utz was obviously such a prepotent sire, and he’s targeted every which way in this pedigree. Frankly I wish this pup was black and tan, so he at least looked a little like him.








maybe he’ll resemble utz sire klodo someday? I won’t even try to pretend to know east german type from czech type, but I assume more knowledgeable folks can spot either or at a glance? Theoretically/hypothetically this pedigree is “87.5%” east german, so I’m hoping this specimen will at least exhibit predominantly east german type someday. Obviously I’m way out of my element with that. For all I know I’m being completely absurd?

The weather as been dismal here. It’s either snowed or rained nearly every day or night, and I’m taking full advantage of it. He’s quickly acclimating. At first he didn’t even want to get his feet wet. Now he barrels right through whatever is in our path (snow, puddles, mud, quicksand, whatever I can find.)
So it was raining pretty good this morning and I had to go up on the roof of an outbuilding (they call it my “command center”) in order to clean the stovepipes. 12 foot ladder, 12/12 pitch, so pretty steep for me. When I finished the job, before putting the ladder away, it occurred to me that I might carry him up the ladder just to see how he reacted to the situation. This was a first for me. I’ve never done this with a dog before.
He was already soaked when I put him on leash. I walked him to the ladder through the mud and rain, picked him up and we began our ascent. When I hit the second rung he just went limp. Calm. Still. Silent. When I stepped from the ladder onto the roof I put him down, tail wagging in the rain, eye contact, ears up. It’s steep enough that I can’t even begin to walk normally up there. I have to sort of sidestep my way around.
I let him “investigate” for a few minutes, then I crowded him to the edge and we traversed up to the peak, then over to the opposite edge, then back around the chimney, and finally back to the ladder. He actually did far better than me. I picked him up and we began our decent down the ladder. Again he was calm and still, but he started making this funny little grunting noise. I think he may have been laughing at me for being scared up there?
He was only in the house for a few minutes when he got here and he’s since learned to keep away from the door & now off the steps entirely. I expect he’ll earn the right to come back inside eventually, but for now the late winter weather is doing him a world of good.
I won’t subject him to extreme indoor/outdoor temperature swings right now because I don’t think that’s fair or healthy. In other words I won’t let him in to warm up, only to send him right back out in the cold and wet indefinitely. But having just cleaned the stovepipes and exposed him to new heights and inclines, I wanted to see how he’d react to fire, so I opened the door of the building and he walked right through it like he owned the place.
I hurriedly lit some paper, then cardboard, then kindling in the stove, and he was fascinated by the flames as they grew before his eyes. He was respectful of the blaze, but not at all fearful of it. I was mindful to get him back outdoors quickly, before he started thawing out.
68 days old today, and nerves of steel. Tomorrow I’m going to cobble together some sort of hoop and begin training him to jump through it. And one day, come fall, or maybe next winter… Provided he works out for me here…


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I didn't come here to stir up all the boards. One thread is enough for now. I think it's best I just stay way down here at the bottom where I’m easy to ignore. Hopefully, sooner or later, someone intimately familiar with this bloodline will ramble on through and enlighten us all.
> 
> 
> thanks
> ...


He may resemble the second picture, depending on what colors the dog was. (I can't see since it's a black and white photo) My pup was much, much darker than yours and he's turned out to be a pretty medium black sable. (not too dark, not too light)

But it's too late to be disappointed in your pup's color. Instead, be happy that you have a curious and intelligent puppy who can and most likely will be your life-long companion. Good luck with him!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

looks like I got this little guy just in time to guard my corona virus toilet paper hoard


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

If I throw the ball right TO him, he brings it like clockwork. If I throw the ball PAST him, he pretends he didn’t see it. Markedly low prey drive. For me at least?
My adult dogs (non gsd) naturally outgrew the reizangel on their own. At some point during adolescence (I guess sometime after the bitearm?) they realize it’s more fun to leap and snap after a reizangel rather than stop the action by actually catching it. Highly athletic strain.
In an attempt to motivate him I’ve brought a couple adults in on the reizangel game along with him, but rather than bump around in that meele, he just goes/sits on the little trampoline and waits his turn. He is improving somewhat… I guess? But again, markedly low prey drive compared to what I’m used to training here. He’s learned a full grip, but it still feels awfully weak to me, and if I try to stretch a grip out too long he seems to loose concentration? At first he’s raring to go, but he still loses interest in the game after just 5 or 6 grips. I refuse to make excuses for any dog, and only hope perhaps he’ll improve when his big boy teeth come in?
I don’t compete in protection sports, but I do rely on prey x equipment association in order to keep this pack in line. I read a lot of talk about ddr civil, but I just don’t get it? My adult prey monsters are conditioned to withstand FAR more pressure than any modern sport/trial provides. They are completely convinced they’re bulletproof. If anyone cares to dance they’re only too happy to oblige, but as long as you behave yourself, so will they. He’s the only male on the property. My girls all adore him and rarely correct him.
His maternal grandsire took second @ a national IPO championship. That dog must have had serviceable prey drives, right? This pups great great grand nephews start out @ $25, and the ones I’ve seen so far all have west german in their pedigrees. Not to mention less in the title department. Was east german schutzhund different than west german schutzhund? Was performance the reason all the old east german lines are crossbred to west now? Maybe that “mitochondrial” z Ps provided enough prey to work the maternal grandsire, but backcrossing to east german again watered it back down?
I am really struggling to get my head around this pup. I have no idea what makes him tick? His extraordinary lack of prey combined with what I interpret (?)as extraordinary high social dominance toward my adult dogs leaves me… flabbergasted, frankly… I’ve never seen anything like it?
The BIG “trial” here begins real soon, and the next 5 or 6 weeks will make or break him for the job.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sell or place the poor pup if your not happy. Not the puppy’s fault he was born. I’m sure there is someone out there willing to take the little tyke.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> If I throw the ball right TO him, he brings it like clockwork. If I throw the ball PAST him, he pretends he didn’t see it. Markedly low prey drive. For me at least?
> My adult dogs (non gsd) naturally outgrew the reizangel on their own. At some point during adolescence (I guess sometime after the bitearm?) they realize it’s more fun to leap and snap after a reizangel rather than stop the action by actually catching it. Highly athletic strain.
> In an attempt to motivate him I’ve brought a couple adults in on the reizangel game along with him, but rather than bump around in that meele, he just goes/sits on the little trampoline and waits his turn. He is improving somewhat… I guess? But again, markedly low prey drive compared to what I’m used to training here. He’s learned a full grip, but it still feels awfully weak to me, and if I try to stretch a grip out too long he seems to loose concentration? At first he’s raring to go, but he still loses interest in the game after just 5 or 6 grips. I refuse to make excuses for any dog, and only hope perhaps he’ll improve when his big boy teeth come in?
> I don’t compete in protection sports, but I do rely on prey x equipment association in order to keep this pack in line. I read a lot of talk about ddr civil, but I just don’t get it? My adult prey monsters are conditioned to withstand FAR more pressure than any modern sport/trial provides. They are completely convinced they’re bulletproof. If anyone cares to dance they’re only too happy to oblige, but as long as you behave yourself, so will they. He’s the only male on the property. My girls all adore him and rarely correct him.
> ...


You sound like you have ridiculous expectations and are certainly not a person I’d want to send a dog home to if I was a breeder. Rehome this puppy to someone who will love him for who he is and not constantly complain about who he isn’t. ?


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

You expect a 2 month puppy would behave very well? Anyhow how does the Pedigree work. I have seen one with HD/A HD/B on it.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

he keeps up with my adult dogs, so his hips aren't the problem. at least not yet.



hirakawa199006 said:


> You expect a 2 month puppy would behave very well?


at 2 months old, I expect this: 




to me that looks like a normal 2 month pup. Apparently around here, that's too much to expect from a 2 month old pup? Everybody here wants to make excuses for a pup. I should blame myself. My expectations are unrealistic.

So as long as we're making excuses here, let's analyze a few possibilities:

excuse #1. "inbreeding depression." Nope. Frozen sire. Czech outcross maternal grand dams.

excuse # 2. "outbreeding depression." Nope. 7/8 ZL:XII

excuse #3. "ddr no prey drive." Perhaps?

excuse #4. "ddr slow to mature." Perhaps?

excuse #5. breeder failed to provide litter with ANY fundamental training or stimulation whatsoever.
I vote for excuse #5 because it's * THE ONLY REAL WORLD DIFFERENCE *between import pups vs. import genetics whelped on this side of the pond. It's not the air. It's not the water. It's not the soil. It's not the genetics. It's the breeders....

Hopefully pup will manage to catch himself up. I'm doing everything I can for him. Stay tuned.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

It just occurred to me, today the little fuzzball growled and struggled ferociously when hooking and unhooking his lead. I don't want to be paranoid, but I just don't know quite what to think about this little fella. I only hope I never have to "rehome him" due to handler aggression...

So I guess I have to put him in a sit before releasing him? that sounds real practical on a tour of duty... 

I won't name any names, but I once read somewhere that old time breeders of another protection breed used to "cull" by selling every pup in the litter, and breeding the one's that were returned months later because they were "just too much." The strategy there being "too much sire" produced more numerous working prospects per litter.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Can’t blame the pup for snarling or biting you, If it’s true. You seem the type to look for attention.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I read old ddr threads and see the phrase "be careful what you wish for" a lot. I had to rehome a dog (not gsd) due to handler aggression years ago. 27 inches tall, well over 70lbs. I used to throw his ball downhill, and using the steep incline to his advantage, he'd catch it on the bounce like 10 feet in the air. He was an outstanding specimen.
One day he was in his kennel, I had a female in heat, and his 6 month old son was loose, "on perimeter duty." Somehow the dog got out of his kennel and went after the son. I managed to catch him by the tail and he spun around on me. I thought to myself "no way this dog would ever bite me" so I stuck my hand right into his mouth. SNAP went the jawtrap.
Bucket of cold water was no use. I had to put all my weight on top of him, and choke him off with his heavy duty prong collar. We had a very short lived love hate relationship after that, and I'll never play piano right again. So when you read that expression "be careful what you wish for." I'm telling you what, buckwheat


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don’t mean to venture too far off into the esoteric here, but if we disregard the current “nuclear/mitochondrial” consensus and come at this ped instead from a very old school angle, we see this genetic soup in an entirely different light.
Today we may identify any number of gsd “types” (wgw, wgs, akc, etc) within the gsd population at large. A quick study of peds over the last 40-50 yrs illustrates that each “type,” in it’s purist form, functionally represents something of a “ modern bloodline” unto itself now. When we annotate this ped accordingly, it takes on an entirely different appearance.








Out here in flyoverstan we call this an “inbred backcross.” However they didn’t go about it properly. Heterosis would have been higher if the frozen sire went straight to one of the czech cross grand dams, rather than the ddr/zps x ddr/zps x ddr/zps “mulligan stew” illustrated above.
While such outbred individuals often prove vigorous in the field, when it comes to reproduction they are almost never prepotent enough to reproduce themselves. Bear in mind I’m still talking strictly “old school” here, but if you’re going to all the trouble of linebreeding on a frozen sire, start with a dam that’s been somewhat linebred in her own right. Don’t waste those reference sire straws, folks. Once they’re gone, they’re gone forever.
I’ve seen this pattern before with other breeds. As the aging population of old school breeders in a breed’s parent country pass away, their own disinterested progeny disperse whatever remains of the kennel in a hot minute. When that’s all gone they begin raiding the nitrogen tank, in most cases with no real knowledge of the actual market value of it’s contents. With a little homework and some sharp trading, historical reference sires may sometimes be had for quite a bargain. It’s not nearly as expensive as it sounds. A cheap little nitrogen shipping container will double as your “tank” until your own dam comes into season.

Little regenschirmbeißer (76 days old) is making some progress here, but not nearly as much or as fast as I’d like. A training associate was out today and concurred this pup is way behind for his age. Offhandedly we discussed perhaps the breeder was correcting the dam for correcting her own pups? I’d never heard of such myself but apparently it’s not entirely unheard of, and may result in a somewhat “stunted” pup? I certainly don’t doubt that would have a most profound impact, but difficult for me to connect the dots between there and low prey drive?

I’ve had good results weaning cold turkey when half a litter emerges from the whelping box and begins crunching @ dam’s feeding time. At that point it’s out with the dam and in with the seesaws/balls/springpoles/etc here, and either a pup wants to work or it doesn’t. I try to bring the best underachievers along, but I know what's what long before vpat.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

berno von der seeweise said:


> either a pup wants to work or it doesn’t. I try to bring the best underachievers along, but I know what's what long before vpat.


I'm certain you know much more about the breed and training protocols than I ever will........but....as the saying goes " train the dog in front of you"...this might have some merit in your case.

Genetics are set.....the possible (lack of) nurturing previous...is out of your hands and the only path going forward is to use all your smarts and flexibility to get the most out of this dog. 

It's not a bad thing to be challenged after all these years......I don't know that there any guarantees with any pups......just harder cases than others.

Maybe the pup just doesn't have it in him to work but I'm certain you'll go to the nth degree to ascertain that.


SuperG


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

While I agree with G whole heartedly about training the dog in front of you, and not whining about what he is or isn't - I'm guessing he'll surprise you as he matures! 

I have found this thread somewhat difficult to follow at times due to sort of cloak-and-dagger technique of leaking insufficient information as you go (not to mention I know nothing at all about pedigrees or genetics). You OP, are a cantankerous old coot, and I for one can relate! LOL!

At any rate, out of curiosity, looking into some of these old DDR dogs, and specifically relating to ZL:XII, as I'm sure you know, that actually was a father,daughter paring!

ZL: XII (12) Utz v Haus Schutting - Gelmo v Hooptal

Gelmo was sired by Utz. Interesting stuff! But when you're creating a "new type" the pool is always limited...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

SuperG said:


> I'm certain you know much more [ ]


I don't mean to interrupt, but my gut says you may have forgotten more about gsd than I'll ever know


SuperG said:


> train the dog in front of you


You are good, Doc. I mean you are very, very good! I haven’t even tried to make friends with this thing yet. So far I’ve only treated it like a piece of equipment. The only name I’ve ever called it by is “hier.” Starting tomorrow we’ll take little “spring break” and I’ll just treat him like a miniature portidoodle for a couple days. You know, snuggle him just for having a pulse. Watch a few pet yoga videos together on youtube. Hopefully we’ll bond a little bit? Maybe I’ll finally think of a name for him? “Ol’ roy” has a nice ring to it. That’s his favorite. Especially their new and improved gourmet ground turkey feathers and beaks blend. Seriously, thank you, Doc. I will try a more sensitive approach. What have I got to lose?



tim_s_adams said:


> I'm guessing he'll surprise you as he matures!


I hope you're right. I've got an important position I need filled here. And what with the corona zombie apocalypse apparently "eminent," who couldn't use a "big bad ddr gsd" right about now? 


tim_s_adams said:


> Gelmo was sired by Utz.











precisely!



tim_s_adams said:


> a father,daughter paring!


There’s quite a bit of that sort of thing back in the old time peds.









And there’s an old adage occasionally repeated within various “working breeder” circles. Something along the lines of “if it works, it’s linebreeding. If it doesn’t work, it’s inbreeding.” However in my experience that’s really only about half true, half of the time, at best. So just for the sake of definitional clarity and terminological exactitude, l limit the term “inbreeding” to sire x daughter, son x dam, and full sibs. Anywhere I find an individual in between/separating those aforementioned relations in a pedigree, I call it “linebreeding.” I’ve found strict adherence to these elementary definitions greatly minimizes potential confusion in my mind.
And thanks to you TS Adams as well, for your words of encouragement. I shall endeavor to persevere through this global pandemic with little banjo vom jodelwald by my side!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Your dog is what he is genetically. Schutzhund was not a big part of the early DDR dogs. Due to lower prey drive and not so great training, compulsion was the standard. Plus, dominance was valued in the old DDR dogs. You just have to learn to read your pup and develop a training program that develops what you want to see in him. I value prey drive in a dog but at times it masks nerve issues and if your dog’s primary drive is defense you have to be more patient and allow the dog to mature so he can learn to cope with the stress of defensive aggression. You will need a good decoy to bring this dog along if defense is his primary drive.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I hope you're right. I've got an important position I need filled here. And what with the corona zombie apocalypse apparently "eminent," who couldn't use a "big bad ddr gsd" right about now?


ROTFLOL! You sir, are a funny guy! I enjoyed that entire post immensely.

I hate to be the harbinger of bad news, but as I'm sure you know, DDR dogs are somewhat delayed in their maturation process. In 3 years, when your puppy is mature, the corona zombie apocalypse will have already run it's course! 

I strongly suggest alternate methods for personal protection! 

On another note, I did see in the ZL:XII lineage a Felsonschloss kennel name. 

I had an opportunity to meet and spend some time with a pup from a Schlossfelson kennel here in the US.

They do mostly showline dogs, but have a stud named Carlo Von Llenroc that is WL. 

Not at all sure if he's somehow related to your dog or not. But curiously, he's also primarily DDR with some Czech blood mixed in. Could that be a common balancing path?? Add a little edge and prey drive...seems reasonable, back toward a balance these dogs were intended to have.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’ll just treat him like a miniature portidoodle for a couple days. You know, snuggle him just for having a pulse. Watch a few pet yoga videos together on youtube. Hopefully we’ll bond a little bit?
> precisely!


Maybe if you knit the little dude an eco-friendly doggy vest with his name on it...... it could really seal the bond.

SuperG


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I didn't come here to stir up all the boards. One thread is enough for now. I think it's best I just stay way down here at the bottom where I’m easy to ignore. Hopefully, sooner or later, someone intimately familiar with this bloodline will ramble on through and enlighten us all.
> 
> 
> thanks
> ...


I really hope this is a joke. I hate for some of this stuff to be even written here because what if someone else gets the idea that it is a good temperament test to put their very young puppy on a steep ROOF.

If it is real I am sorry for your puppy...for the way you obviously think of him.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I really hope this is a joke. I hate for some of this stuff to be even written here because what if someone else gets the idea that it is a good temperament test to put their very young puppy on a steep ROOF.
> 
> If it is real I am sorry for your puppy...for the way you obviously think of him.


I fully agree. I think it is dangerous and completely irresponsible to put that out there (I’m praying it’s just some dummy’s idea of a joke) and have someone else come along and “copy” it. In my opinion, this person is trying as hard as they can to stir up trouble and the mods need to close the thread.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

OP, it's unfortunate, but it would seem that your sense of humor is losing some folks LOL!

Maybe you could post some pictures of that knitting project? 😉


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Personally I think all dogs deserve a home with a person who thinks they are the best dog ever. I cannot imagine what a puppy could have done to make someone dislike it this much. Disappointed in a puppy.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Carlo Von Llenroc


That's a *really nice looking ped*. Carlo’s sire (“nuclear dna” ie; sire’s sire’s sire’ sire >) descends from the ultimo>bojar>hussan branch of the haus schutting line. Most wl folk today say those old ZL#s don’t mean anything anymore. After 30yrs of post reunification breeding, who am I to argue? At least in theory (_I am a leading expert in theory btw_) z ps introgression is fixed, so ultimately it’s all up to the eyes of the beholder now. I think you just about have to be right re; "more balance." No offense intended toward ddr "purists," but if ddr x czech wasn't more balanced, why does every living "ddr ped" have so much z ps behind it?

The other slots in pup’s ped run back to utz via baron vd duetchen werken>gockel v bern(ZL:X) and lex>trutz>ingo (ZL:XI-A). They all came from utz (ZL:XII). In other words, every paternal slot in the ped leads to klodo(ZL:XIII), but only one of them doesn’t go through utz(ZL:XII) in order to get there. Again, looks like awfully close breeding to me? And yet again, but what do I know?
I apologize for being cryptic, but I am absolutely furious with with pup’s breeder. Fit to be tied. I can only assume the whole litter was a mess. Googled breeder name, former LEO w/ at least one narco conviction, etc. Someday I probably won’t care anymore, but for the time being I won’t even utter the name of that “kennel” out loud, let alone put it in writing. He’s not even a breeder. All he did was buy a female and tack his own last name onto her ped. Don’t even get me started on akc… I reluctantly invested my $37.50, but that may very well be the last… Dual or even triple registration w/ other, more performance oriented orgs has already occurred to me. They don’t care who’s name anyone includes/omits on a ped. I don’t think they even know how to read a ped. For that matter, how many english speakers do anymore? FFW 10, 15 yrs from now… forget about it...



Chip Blasiole said:


> I value prey drive in a dog but at times it masks nerve issues and if your dog’s primary drive is defense you have to be more patient and allow the dog to mature so he can learn to cope with the stress of defensive aggression.


I assume every dog I’ve ever trained was prey driven because that’s how I trained them, and it was easy. They pretty well trained themselves. Lure>ball>tug>sleeve, the bite is the reward. In order to get it you must obey my commands. Nothing to it. So I’m probably in WAY over my head here with this little guy, and only hope I’m not too old to learn some new tricks.



SuperG said:


> Maybe if you knit the little dude an eco-friendly doggy vest with his name on it...... it could really seal the bond.


I would, but my knitting needles are all tied up in my manbun  So we were doing some of that pet yoga here together today and I did notice 2 distinct puncture scabs on his upper lips. One on each side. He was totally in the zone and I didn’t want to interrupt his trance right then with a surprise dentition inspection, but (note to self) I will get around to it. In any case, that may have been part of our problem?
Day 1 softer approach results were empirical. Alternating back and forth between ball and flirt pole, as per his attention span, retrieves were much improved, as was lure drive. Got one really nice high flying bite off the trampoline, and his grips were noticeably fuller/stronger overall.
Thanks again, Super G. “Train the dog in front of you” is what finally got through to me. I’ve been surrounded by in-house genetics for so long, I guess it tunneled my training vision. My diagnosis of this pup has evolved from “he’s hard headed” into “he’s supposed to be hard headed” in 24hrs time. See there? I’m self actualizing over here now. And it’s all because of you, Doc.



Pytheis said:


> dangerous and completely irresponsible


That's exactly what my wife said. "Now give me that puppy and you get back up there and finish the job!"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

_it's beginning to appear you may be deliberately trying to antagonize other members that are interested in your thread.Inciting conflict is against forum rules.
The discussions here are for bloodlines and pedigrees only.Other subjects such as training should be discussed in their own sub forums._


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Ouch! Strike two! spanked _again_...

I wouldn’t go so far as to call what we’re doing here “training” just yet, your Honor. If it would please the court, the defense is happy to edit and/or delete his entries regarding _imprinting _pup “up the ladder-over the roof-in the rain.” Please advise.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

*If in doubt refer to my post above or the forum rules.*


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not really sure where to post this? I thought about maybe trying to "shoehorn" it in under genetics, but it's not a "health issue." And as usual it's liable to ruffle some feathers, so? I figure best to hide it down here where it's easy to ignore for now, and leave it up to Mods to move/delete @ their discretion.








near as I can guess this dog is wgwl. My question to the forum:
what drive do you see expressed here, prey or civil? why?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Civil is a trait, not a drive. You can't tell anything from a photo really. Drives overlap and you need to actually know the dog and even then often you are guessing what the emotional state motivating the dog to bite is. The guy is running and the dog looks relaxed and eager, so I would presume he is motivated to bite through prey drive. But he could simply be conditioned to bite on command, so you have to consider learning/training as well. I don't understand what difference it makes in regard to your question.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Civil is a trait, not a drive.


OK, so it's a question of prey drive vs defense drive?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Still don't know without knowing the dog. There are traits and drives beyond prey and defense that motivate a dog to bite a person. One example is active aggression. As I said the dog doesn't look stressed, but it could possess a very confident form of defensive aggression and have a low threshold for defense and could see the person as a threat. The dog could have a high degree of mistrust, but a photo would not tell you that. But based on a snapshot of time, the dog looks like he is working in prey, but his prey drive doesn't appear to be that strong, as the handler appears to be easily holding the dog back with one hand on the leash. The dog is on a choke collar, but highly driven prey dogs will pull a handler off his feet being handled by one hand even on a choke collar. Also, dogs with good prey drive tend to salivate as they come into drive and I don't see that. The dog doesn't look that intent on biting and I don't understand why the guys are running so close to the dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@ berno von der seeweise just start a new thread under 'General' when you want to start a discussion on a topic that doesn't fit anywhere else.If you guys want to talk more in depth.Title it 'Civil or Prey?' or something.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

The guys who mentored me through my first real working litter used to quote Dr. Blasiole chapter and verse, so I'm happy to let him have the last word. Next time I will post general, thank you again for your patience.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Say what?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Say what?


Couple old hooligans (non gsd) maybe 15 yrs ago? They'd get to bickering back and forth and more than once, one or the other would cite a post of your's from another forum. Like throwing down the ace of spades. I won't name names, but one was from KC and the other Fresno. I think they're both gone now.









so I'm digging a little deeper into the old z Ps #'s here tonight. The way I read it, z ps observed improved performance in 4th generation gsd backcrosses. Reportedly those dogs covered as many as 60 miles and 30 apprehensions on a single tour of duty. Performance based selections were recorded in z ps gsd studbook. 5th generation gsd backcross = 3% wolf, so there’s really no significant “wolf” about it. Certainly not now, so many gsd generations after the fact.


However some z ps hybrid culls, designated “CV” on the ped if I’m reading it right, were left in companion hands, and linebred “hybrid x hybrid.” I have no idea according to what selection criteria, but modern examples certainly don’t express gsd type to my eye. Interesting reads nontheless if you have czech or slovak in a ped.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I mean pedro is just wild! those border patrol guys were crazy!!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Decide what your goals are with your pup and find people who can help you accomplish those goals. Learn to identify what your pup’s strengths and weaknesses are and develop a training program to bring your pup to his full potential. Your focus on all theses genetic diagnoses will not yield results. Genetics are very important but if you don’t know how to train the dog you have, theoretical genetic assessments won’t help you accomplish your goals.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.


No matter. Dust to dust. The training is coming along _fabulously_ here_, _but the mod told me not to talk about it. I was given explicit instructions to stick to the ped. It's a shame because I had hoped to share my evaluation of ZL:XII.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is what it is as far as your pup goes. Try to build engagement and expose the pup to environmental stressors. It is a matter of learning to read your pup and how to build on his strengths and seeing if he can overcome his deficits. Build a positive relationship with your pup. Any negative perceptions from you will contribute to a faulty foundation. Discern what traits and drives are genetic and do your best to shape the pup’s behavior in the direction you are striving for. Genetics are primary but good training can go a long way. Your obsession with the details of your pup will become a self fulfilling prophecy to an extent. Don’t lock yourself into a mindset based on a Pedigree analysis. I do believe pedigree analysis is valueable if you have experts doing the analysis, which is rare.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

In this case ped analyses have certainly been valuable to the extent that they offer plausible hypotheses for the low prey, high dominance, and slow maturation exhibited by the individual in question. Fortunately my adult prey monsters have been intelligent enough to assist in motivating pup via his own inherent dominance. So much so that they even let him win now. Lucky for me, because at first I really couldn't get much out of him.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What behavior are you seeing that suggest dominance? What are your goals for the dog? A good decoy will get your pup to bite a pillow without jumping around like a jackrabbit. If not , be patient and if the dog’s primary drive is overtly defense, be patient and let the dog mature. You can still have your decoy try to get him to bite a pillow. Don’t beg him to bite. Give him a few chances and if he isn’t motivated to bite, put him up rather than trying to elicit defensive aggression while he is so immature . Don’t let the decoy beg him to bite by ratcheting up prey movement. If he is truly genetically dominant and his primary drive is defensive aggression, work on decreasing any reactivity and expose him to as many environmental stressors as possible. What is your goal for the dog?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

This is the point where you can start a new thread under one of the training sub forums.Provide a link to it here.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

berno von der seeweise said:


> near as I can guess this dog is wgwl. hy?


Really? Looks more WGSL to me. But I don't even play an expert on TV, so I could easily be wrong.
Sheilah


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> This is the point where you can start a new thread under one of the training sub forums.Provide a link to it here.


 Ah, I get it now. Thanks for the tip. I'll get some fotos, maybe a vid if I can, and link to a new thread under training.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

berno von der seeweise said:


> The way I read it, z ps observed improved performance in 4th generation gsd backcrosses. Reportedly those dogs covered as many as 60 miles and 30 apprehensions on a single tour of duty. Performance based selections were recorded in z ps gsd studbook. 5th generation gsd backcross = 3% wolf, so there’s really no significant “wolf” about it.


Have you seen, or do you have documentation of actual wolf outcrossing?



berno von der seeweise said:


> However some z ps hybrid culls, designated “CV” on the ped if I’m reading it right, were left in companion hands, and linebred “hybrid x hybrid.” I have no idea according to what selection criteria, but modern examples certainly don’t express gsd type to my eye.


To me, most of the early GSDs didn't much resemble the GSD breed either! But, does that prove anything? I wouldn't really want to have a dog that resembled Horand, or Wolf. 

Both were pretty ugly IMHO. But sans solid evidence of wolf outcrossing, I can't help but be a bit skeptical! I've seen and been around Wolf/GSD hybrids...my brother owned one. Nothing in that dog that would have brought the DDR or WGWL dogs that all z PS dogs were founded on, closer to what they are today. IMHO!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Have you seen, or do you have documentation of actual wolf outcrossing?












well it _must be true_ cuz I read it on the internets, right?









Pedro z Pohraniční stráže

I don't know? Height of the cold war, govt scientists, military kennels. Sounds like the x files.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The wolf outcrossing was done trying to strengthen German Shepherd traits. It was quickly scrapped as it became apparent that it was a failure and those dogs were excluded from the zPS breeding program. However, the resulting crosses were to become the foundation of another created breed. I am not sure of the new breed but it might have been the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or Saarloos Wolfdog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

it was a 30 yr project. 1950's - 1980's. The program continued @ libejovice after the czech-slovak split. Performance based selections, purportedly 60 miles and 30 apprehensions per day, were recorded in z ps studbook. According to legend, at least. It all sounds plausible enough to me, because z ps sire peds either go back to ddr #'s, or they go back to conformation org #'s. Whereas a number of z ps dams simply dead end @ "no info." Some of the z ps culls went on to create the wolfdog breed/s. 
As I understand it, z ps did the crosses to reduce genetic health issues. I assume hips? DDR subsidized a number of "protection/police" breeds for the same purpose. You'll find them on https://www.working-dog.com if you dig deep enough. The germans are said to have used and even done some wolfx in the very beginning. I believe the last person I know of to mention that was carmspack?
















I see wolf type in some early gsd, but again, I want to believe


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yep, just did some reading on the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or Saarloos Wolfdog.

Very interesting stuff! 

Thanks guys,I appreciate the enlightenment!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

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frankly I'm skeptical...









I dig "the legend" of wolf blood behind gsd foundations. The lore, if you will. 
But a typical akc gsd is plenty wolfy enough for me. I still want to believe, but I wouldn't feed a wolf.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

A Smithsonian article couple years back claimed that the DNA difference between a wolf and a dog is maybe .03-.04% . Interesting that all the divergence in domestic dogs--Maltese to Great Dane, Corgi to Irish Wolfhound--developed within this tiny sliver.

I had a very little bit of direct experience here. My late brother owned a wolf hybrid dog. Malamute x gray wolf, I believe. Certainly the dog element was malamute. I was never a particular fan of hybridizing wolves as domestic pets, and this particular wolf dog wasn't my favorite animal. That said, my brother truly loved him, and my parents who spent a lot of time around him also liked him. That said, I would not think adding a higher dose of wolf input into a GSD would do much for the working dog traits. This wolf/dog was reasonably biddable as to the very basics--sit, stay, come. But he was not a particularly attentive watch dog. I never saw him do anything like the rhythmic explosive barking you'd see out of a GSD warning someone off or holding a decoy at bay. One predictable behavior I recall about him was resource guarding, directed almost entirely toward food. Granted, I wasn't around him constantly. But he lived to 11-12, and over years of visits, these behaviors remained pretty consistent. 

An adult wolf would be hard-wired to survive in a cooperative pack element. Where we see a lot of references on this forum that one's GSD does not need the company of other dogs to live out its life, a wolf absolutely has to have that social cooperation aspect to stay alive. Even a sickly elk or moose can knock the crap out of a single predator with a hoof, or run it through with an antler. Even smaller prey like whitetail deer would be pretty hard for a single wolf to chase down. 

I think it is still fairly well accepted that dogs tend to closely resemble juvenile wolves in their development or socialization. Interesting quote on this pasted in below:

_Understanding dog behavior rightly begins with with a study of wolf behavior. However, a long history of domestication behaviorally segregates dogs from wolves, and one must take care not to overly generalize between the two canids in terms of their respective motivations and behavior patterns…Selective breeding has altered developmental rates, behavioral thresholds for the display of dominant and submissive behavior, behavioral tendencies and temperament traits, social bonding, and trainability….Dogs never fully mature but remain in most respects at a developmental stage resembling that of a juvenile wolf...In the transformation from lupus to familiaris, wolves lose many of the well-defined agonistic rituals that ordinarily promote close and cooperative social interaction...the wolf’s highly predictable dominance ritual has disintegrated into an assortment of independent behavioral fragments…submission displays have also degenerated under the influence of domestication...In the place of clearly defined and unambiguous signals has arisen a collection of generalized signals that promote social promiscuity through exaggerated care-seeking behaviors, various active and passive submission fragments, and the perpetuation of a juvenile tolerance for varied and close social contact. In comparison with the wolf’s highly organized and integrated social structure, the dog appears disjointed, confused, unpredictable, and fragmented.” - _Steven R. Lindsay 

So I'm not sure what the eastern bloc breeders were after with injecting a new round of wolf-genetics, but I'm not surprised that it apparently did not work, and got dropped. 
If they wanted the formable characteristics of a juvenile wolf, they already had that in a dog.
The adult wolf would be a "hard" animal indeed, but hard in different ways from a working dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> This is the point where you can start a new thread under one of the training sub forums.Provide a link to it here.


Good call, your Honor. After a 23 day binge (perhaps a new record?) I'm temporarily burnt on peds. I'm going to go hang out in personal protection for awhile. If anyone cares to join me I'll be @
*The World According To Berno*


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

So, any talk about pedigrees eventually ends up in behaviors, and that ends up in specifics, and what? That's it? Mods, seriously why would anyone post anything here?

Getting a bit overzealous are we?!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@tim_s_adams this sub forum is for discussions about pedigrees.A long detailed training and behavior discussion deserves it's own thread and has it's own sub forum.
Why would anyone post here?To share and discuss facts and opinions regarding pedigrees.
Overzealous?You and berno maybe A spirited exchange in one of the training sub forums is welcomed.


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