# Ever acquired second pup with intentions to breed?



## jchilders04 (Jan 11, 2011)

DISCLAIMER: Before anyone jumps to conclusions, 1) No, i'm not considering breeding...(possibly in the far far FAR future). I have a handful of titles to get yet, but i have a pretty strong bloodline female; with a lot to learn.

Okay so-
As a random thought (not actionable), we have been considering a second pup; so the question arose: Has anyone purchased a second pup, with the intention of possibly breeding, or very compatible?

On one hand it seems like a great idea, you know the lines, you know how they were raised etc, but on the other you don't know how they will turn out, or what faults they may have until unraveled later in age.

I guess to clarify, if YOU are looking for a second pup, do you look at/consider pups that would be compatible with the current, or do you consider completely separate dog, outside of any considerations to the former?

Hope this makes sense- more just a curiosity question.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

No. 

Each dog is chosen based on his/her own merit and how they will fulfill MY goals. I don't think about who I can breed to who when I go looking for a dog. The chance of getting a GOOD breeding quality dog is slim, unless you do your homework and really do it right. The chance of getting a GOOD stud male is incredibly slim. Why? Males can be studded out potentially till they die. A female produces 4-5 litters in her lifetime. So good males that produce well tend to stick around a lot longer and it's harder to wedge your male into that competitive gene pool. Finding breed-worthy dogs is very difficult, if done right. The chances that the male you purchase will turn out to be a good stud dog is very slim. Ever wonder why breeders always keep females? Because it's a lot easier to find a breedable female, raise it, title/show it and breed her than finding that one in a thousand good male. Breeders usually get rid of their male pups pretty fast. There is no point keeping a bunch of males around if you are a breeder. What's the point in wasting all that time and effort raising a stud male that might not even end up being that good? Plus who knows if he will even compliment your female well. 

There are far easier ways to find a good stud that will be compatible for a "pretty strong bloodline" female that is being titled. As the owner of a breed-worthy female, you have all the power. You get to choose out of all the studs out there which one you like best to compliment your female. Why constrain yourself to one male in your household? 

Say for some reason that the second one turns out to be a great match for the first. How many times will you repeat the same litter? I can understand maybe one repeat litter because the first was so good, but where does that leave you if you keep repeating the same breeding over and over? Same lateral movement over and over. A stagnant breeding program that sounds very BYBish...

If you have a female, it's way easier to just find some good studs in the area, figure out which one suits your female the best and then just pay a stud fee to use the male. You don't have to jump through all the hoops to get both a male and female ready to breed. Plus, if you plan on having 4-5 litter, you get to try out 4-5 combos of your female with a chosen stud. You can see how your female produces, what type of male compliments her and you produce pups with some variety that you can pick amongst. 

It's anywhere from 800-2k if you want to use a male for stud. Think about the cost to purchase a male, vet it through its life, training fees, trial fees, club fees, show fees etc etc etc...why bother going through all that when you can just pay a stud fee to gain access to some great gene pools with the work already done for you. 

It doesn't make any kind of practical sense to just get 2 dogs to breed to each other, unless you were planning on churning out some hobby breeder type dogs each year for profit. :shrug:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Since I would probably not go the the extent I require of a breeding male, then for me the male would be strictly for a training dog and club level competitor. There are many good males within driving distance of my place that have all my qualifications fulfilled. (SchH titled, hips/elbows and Kkl rating) I doubt I will ever KkL another dog since I just don't have that time currently. Plus, the chances of finding a pup with the bloodlines that would complement an existing dog AND getting all that done are pretty slim. I prefer to get a male on it's own merits and potential for what I want to do and look elsewhere for a good male if I decide to go that route.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I would acquire a second dog to breed; but another bitch. I have no use for personal studs; the chances of me finding a puppy that turns out to be better than the fantastic stock already out there (and proven) is so remote that I'd only acquire a male for the fun of showing and sport. I know that I am not proficient in enough sports to properly and diversely title a stud, and I'm not knowledgeable enough with bloodlines to campaign a pair of testicles that I don't completely understand. All the breeding I've been involved in has been fully controlled by mentors. Maybe in a few decades I'll know enough to raise a 'real' stud, but until then my bitches are where I build.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

marbury said:


> I know that I am not proficient in enough sports to properly and diversely title a stud, and I'm not knowledgeable enough with bloodlines to campaign a pair of testicles that I don't completely understand. .


Exactly. This is another great point. The popular stud dogs in any area are campaigned fairly heavily. It takes a good amount of effort, time and money to get your stud male out there. Take for example any VA1 dog in a conformation show. The VA1 dog never got his VA1 based on merit alone. A good amount of work behind the scenes ensured that he gets his VA1 placement 
Why waste all that effort, time and money on a dog that might end up being a dud? If you are looking to breed, get females and work them. If you want to purchase a male, look for a sport/show candidate, but you should be very realistic and understand that there is a very very VERY small chance that the male will turn out good enough to be a strong stud male. If purchasing a male, be aware that most likely he will be pet quality, sport or show for fun candidate.


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## jchilders04 (Jan 11, 2011)

You make a very good point gbchottu, and again not that I was considering it, simply the question came up in my head.

I train SchH and so if I WERE to get another pup, it would most likely be another (hopefully) strong female, at first guess (i know pet homes recommend to get an opposite gender pup).

Thanks for the insight all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I will descent on the popular opinion. Yes, if I wanted a second pup, and did not want a second female, as that can get ugly regardless of the lines, or the amount of research you do, I would get a male, and I would get a male that suited my purposes, like the female, and also would complement the female at least on paper. I certainly would not go out of my way to bring an opposite sex dog in that would be a disaster if bred to my female. 

Just because you have a male whose pedigree looks to complement your female, does not mean you need to use him as a stud. But the possibilities in the event of a lack of vigilance on the part of the owners, pet sitter, brother-in-law's nephew, and you have puppies that could be just fine.

The chances that a puppy selected at eight weeks to complement a bitch, truly complementing her when he is mature are pretty slim, and if he does, and has correct temperament, titles, etc, chances are his hips or elbows won't check, or something worse. Breeding may be an art and a science, but I think that some of it is up to luck or chance or fate or nature or our higher power. The super-duper double world sieger son may be awesome in every way, but not produce a sperm that can fertilize an egg, but the rangy, mangy border collie mix from down the road will produce 14 puppies with just one tie, and climb three fences to accomplish it. 

If you are going to have male and female in the same household, yeah, I would definitely want them to look good on paper.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jchilders04 said:


> As a random thought (not actionable), we have been considering a second pup; so the question arose: Has anyone purchased a second pup, with the intention of possibly breeding, or very compatible?


You don't need to own the stud dog, so I don't see any reason why you'd need to purchase a second pup solely for compatibility with your female, even if you do decide to breed her at some point.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have bought several female puppies over the years with the intent to breed (of those only 1 worked out), but never males. I have a limit to how many dogs I can own, work and care for so I would rather put that into the girls. The chances of finding a male that will compliment the one or two girls you own is pretty small and then where do you go with their daughters? Of course I currently have a male, but he is related to my girls and I didn't keep him for breeding. I wanted a competition dog that didn't come into heat.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Of course I currently have a male, but he is related to my girls and I didn't keep him for breeding. I wanted a competition dog that didn't come into heat.


That's exactly why I'm looking at a male next! I already have my bitches, I'd love to have a dog that I don't have to follow around with a mop twice a year! :laugh:

That, and it sucks when you're all paid to go lurecorsing or something similar and you drive aaaaall the way to wherever your event is... and then Betsy Bitch goes into heat. *facepalm*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah I'd love to get into breeding some day but I really like having males. The *only* thing I don't like having multiple males is the marking in the yard, since my yard is VERY small (about 2000 square feet). But, NO heat cycles, no bitch fighting. If I ever got a female it would not be a puppy and she'd probably live with my sister.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Yeah I'd love to get into breeding some day but I really like having males. The *only* thing I don't like having multiple males is the marking in the yard, since my yard is VERY small (about 2000 square feet). But, NO heat cycles, no bitch fighting. If I ever got a female it would not be a puppy and she'd probably live with my sister.


Haha, that's actually my favorite part about males at shows... ladies can take their sweet time finding the perfect potty spot. When I'm showing males all I have to do is get them to the nearest upright object outside and we're clear for the ring. Doing potty breaks for 4 females before ring time can take a half hour; with boys it'd take all of four minutes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL that IS true! I just bring mine to any post, fence, hydrant, tree, weed....heck anything that protrudes more than three inches and they'll go!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't plan to have any males, just females and I will use outside studs if/when the time comes. If I had a male at home it would just be too easy to keep "using" him rather than search out new studs. Plus I like not having to deal with a male when my girls are in heat! I've heard they can get rather obnoxious. So the only males I will have will be altered, we only have 1 neutered male dog now anyway.


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## JustJim (Sep 6, 2010)

I'm with Selzer. In the next year or two I'll be getting another dog--male, for a lot of reasons--and one of the things I'll consider is how his pedigree might compliment that of my youngest girl (almost 2 y.o. now). 

I'm not necessarily planning to breed them, but the possibility does exist, either planned or "oops." Mostly though because I know that my girl is a good match for me, that some of her "cousins" would also be a good match for me, and that a male from similar lines has a good chance of being a good match for me.


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