# Hike and Fetch



## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

Ala @David Winners and Valor recent video on how they play and walk.

This may appear like we are playing fetch, but it is really a bonding exercise. Roscoe is now a year old. He is a very tough and intense Czech WL dog. He is for sure not for the faint of heart. 
As I am sure many on this forum can relate, Roscoe wakes up and it's time to tighten my belt.
What I have learned from tough and intense GSD's that I have owned before him is the tougher ones need more play and less daily obedience drills. 
My K9 cop friends keep telling me that I have done so much obedience work with him since he was 8 weeks old that he is wound way to tight. I was so obsessed on his obedience and trying to make him the perfect dog that I forgot to let him be a dog. 
So in the past few weeks I have laid completely off of his obedience and spend our days on play only. I am letting him be a dog.
In this video it might seem like we have the perfect bond. The truth is we don't. And how do I know that? His leash reactivity to dogs and certain people means he does not trust that I have his back and he does not have to worry about anything. We have a good bond, but not enough. He is very obedient when off leash with all the basic commands. But the question I've been asked by my k9 cop friends who are very familiar with his pedigree is do I think he is being very obedient? Or is he working for me?
Which is it that we want? I want a GSD that works with me as a partner, and not just being obedient because I have done nothing but drill him with obedience work.
So this video is how I am working on that bond to work together...I work for him and he works for me.

So basically what I am trying to convey with this lengthy message is don't make that mistake of forgetting to let a dog be a dog.
That kind of a relationship might cure something as complex and as common as leash reactivity on dogs.

Hope I conveyed my message clearly.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think you and your K9frined are right. Ok, this is my honest take, meant as feedback, based on the video, which is a great one: I see a dog that is kinda lost in what to expect. He jumps on these boulders with a question mark in his eyes, "Do you want me to do this? No? How about on this one?" It doesn't seem that he has fun doing it. I see your body posture by way of your shadow. It doesn't radiate excitement but more of a chore. He dutifully fetches but there is no pleasure in it. I don't know you at all but it looks like it's time to start to have fun with that dog; run with him, tap him on his side like "go play?, hide and seek, some agility, pet dog stuff. He is gorgeous and with so much potential.
When I got Deja at 9 months old she was similarly trained: as soon as I stood still in the yard, she sat or heeled. So I told her that things weren't so strict here and I showed that to her. But of course I expect her to obey. It took a few weeks for her to loosen up and now she is open and fun with a great sense of duty. She has the eagerness of anticipation in her eyes. We are two peas in a pod. Curious what you think.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Does Roscoe get some time to snuffle around at his own pace? That's not a criticism at all. He looks happy to chase the ball and look to you for instruction. My boy sticks close and checks in often during our walks too.If I want to really get him running I get hubby involved with walking the two girls way ahead then send him after them. After he reaches them he's on his way back within seconds. Check on mom,check on dad and girls,sniff around for critter trails,check mom, etc.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I think you and your K9frined are right. Ok, this is my honest take, meant as feedback, based on the video, which is a great one: I see a dog that is kinda lost in what to expect. He jumps on these boulders with a question mark in his eyes, "Do you want me to do this? No? How about on this one?" It doesn't seem that he has fun doing it. I see your body posture by way of your shadow. It doesn't radiate excitement but more of a chore. He dutifully fetches but there is no pleasure in it. I don't know you at all but it looks like it's time to start to have fun with that dog; run with him, tap him on his side like "go play?, hide and seek, some agility, pet dog stuff. He is gorgeous and with so much potential.
> When I got Deja at 9 months old she was similarly trained: as soon as I stood still in the yard, she sat or heeled. So I told her that things weren't so strict here and I showed that to her. But of course I expect her to obey. It took a few weeks for her to loosen up and now she is open and fun with a great sense of duty. She has the eagerness of anticipation in her eyes. We are two peas in a pod. Curious what you think.


Thanks for that feedback. 
I agree about that physical pat on the side which I always do. But hands were full trying to video this and chucking his toy...I dropped the phone a few times hence the few edits of the video.

As for the confusion on the boulder jumps you mention, it was more like asking permission or if I wanted him jump on...he's used to jumping on everything and many times I have to say no before he does. 

And the biggest issue of all is we were deep in bear country so I was constantly on the lookout and nervous. We spotted one last week about a mile from this hike and I had to leash him up for about 2 miles before I felt safe to let him off leash again.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> Does Roscoe get some time to snuffle around at his own pace? That's not a criticism at all. He looks happy to chase the ball and look to you for instruction. My boy sticks close and checks in often during our walks too.If I want to really get him running I get hubby involved with walking the two girls way ahead then send him after them. After he reaches them he's on his way back within seconds. Check on mom,check on dad and girls,sniff around for critter trails,check mom, etc.


When we hike with the kids, he does. The kids and wife hike pretty slow so he tries to stay half way between them and me to keep an eye on them but always comes back to my side. 
The only way for me to send him away is with a fetch game when alone.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Roscoe618 said:


> Ala @David Winners and Valor recent video on how they play and walk.
> 
> This may appear like we are playing fetch, but it is really a bonding exercise. Roscoe is now a year old. He is a very tough and intense Czech WL dog. He is for sure not for the faint of heart.
> As I am sure many on this forum can relate, Roscoe wakes up and it's time to tighten my belt.
> ...


Looking good! Nice engagement. Nice outs.

I don't know how long the hike was, but that was more "training" than I put into 4 minutes on a hike unless it's at the end and I'm trying to wear them out 

I usually go 10-15 minutes between recalls/fetch. I'll do a recall/reward with a throw, reward the out with a throw or 2 and then just walk. No words during the walk. If he's pushing me for the toy I just ignore it and walk. Valor will jump up and grab my hood or the camera on my head trying to get me to play but I just walk. He will also jump up on stuff and want a reward. Just walk. No words.

This does a couple things.

A) I'm in charge and I decide the game. You can't just be an idiot and get rewarded for it.

B) it encourages independence and natural behaviors. If he stops to check something out. I just walk. No words. Just walk.

C) it emphasizes commands under distraction. It's easy to get a dog to recall when they are thinking about the tug in your hand. It's more difficult when they are sniffing coyote scent. If you give a recall when they are into something else in their brain, and then reward that with great times, that sticks.

D) it takes pressure off the dog. There is no need to be locked in drive. Turn it on. Get it done. Relax. Your time will come. I'll let you know. Just walk with me. When you are the most relaxed, the most just being a dog, I'll call on you to do your thing and it will be awesome! That's a good skill right?

A walk in the woods. Such a great time for a boy and his dog.

ETA: recording a full hike in the woods, or pretty much anything fun with a dog, is harder (for me at least) than it seems.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Looking good! Nice engagement. Nice outs.
> 
> I don't know how long the hike was, but that was more "training" than I put into 4 minutes on a hike unless it's at the end and I'm trying to wear them out
> 
> ...


Thank you, David. Those are great points you are making, specaily about taking pressure off the dog which is what I am working on.

We were in the woods for 2.5 hours, so the throws and "place" commands were pretty wide spread throughout the hike. I would say at least half the hike there is no talking. And Roscoe as well will come from behind and jump on me to get me to throw the ball, and I just ignore and even prolong the wait until the next recall. And when I do that, he resorts to sticking right next to me and just walks on my left.

I love being in the woods with this boy...we would stay out all day if we could. We've been hiking like this since he was 16 weeks old.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Looks like a nice day for a walk, fun for the dog and it sounds like it was a work out for you. You are huffing and puffing but the dogs is as fresh as a daisy.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

car2ner said:


> Looks like a nice day for a walk, fun for the dog and it sounds like it was a work out for you. You are huffing and puffing but the dogs is as fresh as a daisy.


Lol...I might be huffing and puffing but I can do that all day and keep going. I am a full time mountain bike and motocross racer by profession, so I do nothing but ride and train all day 😉. 

Can't wait till he's 18 months or so and let him run with me on my daily 12 mile mountain bike rides. 
My previous GSD was out chasing me on my dirt bike rides in the trails daily. He passed at 12 years old and was still chasing me for up to 30 miles only a week before he passed.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Looks like a great place to hike!
As an experiment, I took the dogs on a 40 minute hike last week and didn't say one word, not one.
I don't constantly chatter with them anyway but in this case I just let them be dogs. It was interesting.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Looks like a great place to hike!
> As an experiment, I took the dogs on a 40 minute hike last week and didn't say one word, not one.
> I don't constantly chatter with them anyway but in this case I just let them be dogs. It was interesting.


What was interesting about it? I'm interested.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> What was interesting about it? I'm interested.


Harley checked in a ton, Rogan less often. He'd be a handful for a lot of people as he always wants to flush things out and definitely lead.They are both squirrel obsessed and usually seek permission to run them up trees if they're too far away and I presumed we might have issues with him not getting a verbal max but he set his own pretty well like an invisible force field. In his case, I wouldn't trust that to be there for a deer as I use verbal cues to bring him back from spooling up.

But there are several spots on our hike where I habitually get them to "stand" (wait) and they now do it naturally out of habit. There's a blind corner where I often have to remind Rogan "too far" and he looked back and returned without verbal pressure.

The whole hike went off just about as normal but only eye contact and hand gestures needed. It's not unusual for us to go long stretches without too much chatter needed but you could tell the dogs thought it was strange and something was up, like it was a game and they were trying to get me to talk.

They got really excited when we finally got home and I just said "Good boys!" .... it was like they just found out I could talk again.

It's a good reminder to not let things get too static, it's just a different kind of engagement. Nowhere happier than just cruising through the woods, three boys at the top of the chain just being dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Harley checked in a ton, Rogan less often. He'd be a handful for a lot of people as he always wants to flush things out and definitely lead.They are both squirrel obsessed and usually seek permission to run them up trees if they're too far away and I presumed we might have issues with him not getting a verbal max but he set his own pretty well like an invisible force field. In his case, I wouldn't trust that to be there for a deer as I use verbal cues to bring him back from spooling up.
> 
> But there are several spots on our hike where I habitually get them to "stand" (wait) and they now do it naturally out of habit. There's a blind corner where I often have to remind Rogan "too far" and he looked back and returned without verbal pressure.
> 
> ...


So, words mean more when there are fewer of them, and your dogs understand non verbal communication, and they may understand more than you previously thought?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> So, words mean more when there are fewer of them, and your dogs understand non verbal communication, and they may understand more than you previously thought?


Pretty much yes. But as I said, I don't yack a lot when we're hiking anyways unless necessary and they have already learned verbal cues and they know a game where we hunker down and freeze and direct gaze down the path to a target. 20 minutes is probably normal every day, first time doing it for 40 and just observing though. I know people who are deaf and rarely speak to their dogs to it's certainly not unheard of.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Pretty much yes. But as I said, I don't yack a lot when we're hiking anyways unless necessary and they have already learned verbal cues and they know a game where we hunker down and freeze and direct gaze down the path to a target. 20 minutes is probably normal every day, first time doing it for 40 and just observing though. I know people who are deaf and rarely speak to their dogs to it's certainly not unheard of.


Thanks for sharing your observations!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I enjoyed watching that vid and I’m surprised no else mentioned this but when he jumped on that second rock and gave a questioned look, I would have jumped right up with him to join the fun and then jumped back down with a “aha” and run like heck. Just to add some fun, all is ok for him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Heartandsoul said:


> I enjoyed watching that vid and I’m surprised no else mentioned this but when he jumped on that second rock and gave a questioned look, I would have jumped right up with him to join the fun and then jumped back down with a “aha” and run like heck. Just to add some fun, all is ok for him.


That was my observation too. I thought I was the only one.


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

singletonamos50 said:


> Looks like a nice day for a walk, fun for the dog and it sounds like it was a work out for you. You are huffing and puffing but the dogs is as fresh as a daisy.


What? Did you just copy & paste was @car2ner posted about 10 posts back? Read my reply to that post 🤦‍♂️


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I will say that some videos I've recorded, my breath sounds like I've been doing heavy labor for hours, when all I did was some yard work. I think it is the way the microphone picks it up sometimes.


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