# K-9 Cops



## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

on animal planet now.

Anyone else watching?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

It's not on for a couple hours here, VCR is set


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## bdanise1 (Jan 25, 2008)

sure am, of course I watch animal cops everynight.

But this one is even better so far only GSD on.


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## Manfred (Sep 15, 2008)

I was kinda surprised how many of the dogs are Sables , I wonder why that is

Meet the Officers and their K-9 Partners
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/k9-cops/bios/index.html


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## bdanise1 (Jan 25, 2008)

Look at the one on now....I'm in love...


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Many working line GSD's are sables. They typically love to chase and kill (a toy or whatever)


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

Just finished watching it. What a great show! Police dog training has always fascinated me.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I liked the show, but enjoyed the company much more.

I did something unusual....I laid on the floor with the dogs LOL

We have hard wood and I'm not a floor person, they were all too eager to cuddle, and Reich is an awesome pillow!


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Loved it! I usually have Animal Planet on anyway but this was a really interesting show. Marley's Sire is a K-9 cop and it is always neat to hear when he gets his man or finds drugs in a bust. 

Marley was fascinated with all the barking going on. Her ears were flicking all over the place...LOL


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## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

Isn't this a new show or is this just the season premiere? I'm watching it at midnight soon.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

New show, and really cool!


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## TerriB (Apr 3, 2007)

This is a great show! I watched it at 7:00pm (Portland/Vancouver area) and I'm about to watch it again. Their department is very large as compared to Vancouver!


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## CertainlySpoiled (Dec 2, 2007)

Yay for K9 Officer's Sully, Ranger and Ricco...Loved the show. Did anyone else's GSD go crazy during the show with the sirens and things? It was a mad house here, both Elle and Emma were just having the time of their lives running up to the tv and trying to figure out what was going on! lol


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ManfredI was kinda surprised how many of the dogs are Sables , I wonder why that is


Why is that so fascinating?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyP
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ManfredI was kinda surprised how many of the dogs are Sables , I wonder why that is
> ...


For me it's because we rarely see sables in everyday life. They do tend to be more in the working lines where the color doesn't matter. You see less sables in the show ring and I think that is where most of the 'family pet' GSDs come from.


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## grmnshpd21 (May 5, 2005)

I watched it last night and set the season pass on my TiVo so I don't miss any of them. I loved it!


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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: PackenThey typically love to chase and kill (a toy or whatever)










Oh, isn't that the truth. Yesterday my girl killed one of her favorite toys. There was stuffing all over the place.

I thought the show what pretty good. I'll watch the next installment, whenever that is.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

DH and I caught it the other night and, to my big surprise, DH actually really liked the show. (He doesn't normally like watching dog shows.) I'm going to try and get him to watch it more often since there's such pretty sable dogs on the show. He knows I want our next one to be a sable male.


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## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JenniferkyYay for K9 Officer's Sully, Ranger and Ricco...Loved the show. Did anyone else's GSD go crazy during the show with the sirens and things? It was a mad house here, both Elle and Emma were just having the time of their lives running up to the tv and trying to figure out what was going on! lol


I watched it with Jess and she had no reaction except for when Rico (I think it was him) was crying in the back of the car, otherwise she ignored the show completely. Figures she'd only react to another dog acting stressed out, I think it made her jealous actually so she ignored it. DH and I even started howling at the sirens to see if she'd start her wonderful crooning but noooo...


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## Halen (Feb 16, 2007)

I loved the show! Police dogs are fascinating!


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## bdanise1 (Jan 25, 2008)

My Lakota howled at the sirens.. Its a very deep low howl.

The others watch with me, it was great to see the look on there faces and the heads tipping one way and the other, ears very alert..
Great show..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, someone has to be a sour-puss and I guess I will be the one.

I watched it. I liked the first dog. He was good working and then came home and lounged about with the handler/officer's kids -- this is what the founder of the breed had in mind. 

I thought the second dog -- the one with the female officer was absolutely insane. That barking in the vehicle would have made me pull over and shoot the dog. It was like he could not turn off at all. And the way he dragged the officer around -- is this really necessary for a police dog? I suppose seconds count, and being keyed up is important. 

I think that I would rather have a dog that was in tune with the whole situation and go in thinking, not just forging ahead too excited to think. 

I just cannot picture that dog relaxing in its handler's home. Maybe they have a working collar and a not-working collar, that the dog is totally ON when he has the one collar on. 

I did not like that dog at all. Sorry. 

I liked the last one fine. 

Our sherriff's department has some dogs that I do not trust at all. One charged me when I was out with Dubya and they had a **** of a time containing it. I wasn't sure if it was genetic dog-aggressiveness, or simply poor training. I suppose it wasn't either, just the way some of these police dogs are. 

I did not feel that the female officer had control of her dog. If she did not, than that is something that could hurt the program. I would rather see an obedient dog first.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I get ya Sue. 

All K-9 officers are not created equal from what I've seen in real life, and as depicted on the show.

I worked in delis and convenience stores all around the city here as a teenager. I met alot of the K-9s as officers will come in and eat/drink coffee generally hang out. (a big plus as it helps deter those who think about robbing the stores).

I met one Mal who wanted nothing more than to rip anyone passing to shreds. Fantastic worker, but was always 'in gear'. Even the handler would talk about how frustrating he could be at times, but that his value 'on the job' made him worth the effort. 
There were GSDs who I was allowed to pet, and even offer treats to, when they were keeping us company. Firm, confident handlers and solid dogs who were able to turn it 'on' and 'off'.

Those dogs were actually what attracted me to this breed to begin with. To think that there were dogs out there who I could sit on the floor with and share a cheese and peanutbutter cracker with while getting my face licked, that were also able to do a 180 and work like they do was just amazing. Talk about versatility.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> It was like he could not turn off at all. And the way he dragged the officer around -- is this really necessary for a police dog? I suppose seconds count, and being keyed up is important.


They should not be turning off at work. period. They need to be just as on their toes as their handlers in order to properly deal with any situation. My husband's dog does not bark in the car, because for the most part, it's a learned and reinforced behavior. At some point in that dog's early stages of training, I wouldn't be surprised if when he barked in the car, they praised him for it. That's how you get a dog that doesn't shut up. I don't personally like barking dogs in the back of a cruiser, but I'd take a dog that acts like him over a dog who didn't even have the proper drives to be doing the work anyday.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I think that I would rather have a dog that was in tune with the whole situation and go in thinking, not just forging ahead too excited to think.


Believe it or not, he was far from being too excited to think. Again, I'd rather have a dog pulling me towards a suspect that he may need to be sent on, then one who I can't even be confident will apprehend when necessary.




> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I just cannot picture that dog relaxing in its handler's home. Maybe they have a working collar and a not-working collar, that the dog is totally ON when he has the one collar on.


First of all, they don't all have the opportunity to relax in their handlers home. Soem are kept in outdoor kennels, garages, etc. My husband's dog lives in the house with us, but he spends alot of time in his crate because he is just too insane to chill outside of it.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I did not like that dog at all. Sorry.


I loved him.







To each their own I guess.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Our sherriff's department has some dogs that I do not trust at all. One charged me when I was out with Dubya and they had a **** of a time containing it. I wasn't sure if it was genetic dog-aggressiveness, or simply poor training. I suppose it wasn't either, just the way some of these police dogs are.
> 
> I did not feel that the female officer had control of her dog. If she did not, than that is something that could hurt the program. I would rather see an obedient dog first.


First of all, it's important to state that not all K9 training programs and k9 handlers are created equally. Unfortunately, there are more than a few handlers out there that do not see their position as a priviledge and do not take it seriously enough. There are also alot of places that have dogs on the street that should have never been there in the first place. Still today, there are alot of K9's out there with poor genetics, crappy nerves, and just barely squeak by certifications, but probably wouldn't apprehend someone without equipment on. It all boils down to two things in my mind: genetics (of the dogs) and proper training. 

It's unfortunate that you have such a bad taste in your mouth about your local K9's. I do believe the good ones far outnumber the bad ones. Also, The female handler's dog was doing exactly what he should have been in the situations he was shown in. There was no need to be performing AKC Obedience at the calls she was on.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

I didn't get to see the show but the description of one of the dogs reminds me of one that we had to work with. I blame the handler as much as anything. His dog was one of the over the top imports and, though I never saw him try to recall, I seriously doubt that the handler could have recalled when the dog was in chase. This same dog would be snapping, barking and lunging at anybody around the bad guy after he was already in cuffs and we would be trying to talk and figure things out. He bit at least 4 officers that I knew of. The dog I trained and worked with had to be taught to bark and growl on command. In hindsight, he wasn't really tempermentally suited for the job. But I could walk up to a witness or victim with him at heel and not worry that he was going to bite them. I could talk in a normal voice and perhaps most importantly I didn't have to continually look down at the dog to make sure he was he wasn't going to go ballistic. Of course he would gladly take an arm of if any anyone made an aggressive move toward me. I had total faith in him to do as he was trained.
Again, I didn't see the show so I'll pass no judgment on how any officer performed as I don't know any of the circumstances but I think I will agree with Selzer that I also prefer an obedient dog.
In school, if a dog didn't pass bulletproof obedience, he didn't even move on to agility.
I definitely agree that all handlers are not created equal.
I'm sure K-9 theory has changed a lot over the years and I haven't kept up so I'll just leave it at that.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

I think my dog enjoyed the show more than I did- lol! She was going nuts jumping on the tv screen everytime the dogs would continously bark. I used to be a police officer and wanted to be a handler, but my department said that they had never had a female K9 handler and probably wouldn't in the forseeable future. It shot down my hopes to say the least. Anyway, these dogs were quite a bit different than the ones I've worked with.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08blame the handler as much as anything. His dog was one of the over the top imports...


Is there something wrong with that?



Sorry guys, I take this type of discussion to heart, and am more than willing to defend/provide information/educate about it until the cows come home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, but if the guy on the wall had pulled a gun on the dog and the woman, she would have taken a few seconds to untangle the lead in her hands to draw her weapon. 

A GSD is no match for a gun. I know one of the kids in my sister's class grew up and murdered a guy and then fired on the police dog and killed it before they killed him.

The way the woman had the lead wrapped around her hand and was being dragged by the dog and was using two hands to control it, she would not have had a prayer if the guy had had a gun. What would keep her alive would be the guy's decision to shoot the dog first. Thus the crazy dog would buy back a few seconds with its life, hopefully saving the handler. 

I guess I just do not see that behavior as safe or necessary. This does not sound like a dog that could safely visits schools, etc.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> The way the woman had the lead wrapped around her hand and was being dragged by the dog and was using two hands to control it, she would not have had a prayer if the guy had had a gun. What would keep her alive would be the guy's decision to shoot the dog first. Thus the crazy dog would buy back a few seconds with its life, hopefully saving the handler.


Unfortunately, when it boils down to something like this, releasing the dog is the first option. The dog's are a tool that are being utilized by the agency. Additionally, there were already officers on scene before she arrived with the dog, and if that suspect had a gun, he probably would have already been shot. I know my husband will do absolutely everything in his power to avoid sending his dog into pontentially life-threatening situations.




> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I guess I just do not see that behavior as safe or necessary. This does not sound like a dog that could safely visits schools, etc.


Just because the dog is large and strong, does not mean it isn't social OR obedient.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I thought the show was awesome and very interesting. I thought the female officer did have some trouble controling her dog. I agree that a police dog should be "on" when working, but the other dogs they showed on there were intense but you could tell they were under control. The female officer was being dragged by that dog and you could see that she was having a hard time. However, maybe it was just an off day, or the dog was more keyed up because of the camera men being in the car with them.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

"Additionally, there were already officers on scene before she arrived with the dog, and if that suspect had a gun, he probably would have already been shot. "

If I'm understanding this correctly and there were other officers who had the perp against the wall before she even arrived, what was the purpose of having the dog out of the car? Perhaps to supply footage of the dog acting psycho for the TV show? Evidently you and I will disagree on the necessity of having your K-9 under control at all times. I was taught that your dog should never be an impediment to you doing your job. And in my opinion if you need two hands just to hold on to it, you're not in a very good situation to do your job. Either that or she was simply putting on a good show for the cameras.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Also, people who are not actively involved in law enforcement need to understand that the dog may have needed to be released at any moment, and he was there as a deterrent to the suspects. Both of the situations he was involved in, he did exactly what he needed to do. Barking, lunging, and seeming "out of control" are exactly the behaviors that entice a criminal to give up a little sooner...


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Chris- 

The suspect had just fled from a stolen vehicle and was being pursued on foot by other officers. When the handler and dog arrived, he was in the process of jumping onto a dumpster and going who knows where from there. The dog was there because it was going to be sent to apprehend if the suspect continued to flee.

Trust me, I maintain the need for k9's to be under control, however, not all real life scenarios are created equally... I truly wouldn't be judging someone's position until you are actually in it.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

"Unfortunately, when it boils down to something like this, releasing the dog is the first option."

Well, I suppose if you have compromised your gun hand it is your only option. Not good tactics. To release your dog against an armed assailant because you have taken yourself out of the play is unconscionable to me.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Thanks for the scenario. Sounds like a perfectly typical use for the K-9. 
I thought I made it rather clear that I wasn't interested in judging another officers actions since I wasn't there and didn't even see the show. I'm simply responding to other people's report of a handler having to use two hands to control her dog.
I spent 20 years actually in it. Virtually all of it in a single unit where your nearest backup was usually 30 minutes away. I don't need to be lectured about real life scenarios.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I haven't watched it yet, but I saw the advertisement for it and it looks awesome.
I like that they have a lot of sables. Ever since my uncle got a sable, I want my next GSD to be sable.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

Wow - guess I missed that this discussion is going on in two threads. Rather than re-typing here to specific people who have already posted in the other thread, I'll just copy/paste what I already wrote there:

I thought it was kind of cool seeing a female officer with so much dog. We don't have enough female k9 handlers out here really - maybe it will influence some more to go into the field. 

And as a dog handler, I'd much rather have a dog that's fired up than one that has to be fired up. I think that's part of the deterrence...with the dogs barking at suspects, they tend to give up faster rather than fight/flight. 

As for my training, it's usually that we have both hands with our dogs. We usually leave the gun coverage to our cover officers. If a suspect pulls a gun out, it's surprisingly fast to let go of your dog and draw & fire....in fact we train to let go of the dogs immediately if we're in that situation. So I think that's just more of a general training aspect...not necessarily a male/female thing. Even our larger officers generally keep both hands for dealing with the dog rather than having a gun out for everything. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you'll see male officers in upcoming episodes who have both hands on the lead/dog.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

In response to Selzer's posts on threads about not wanting a police dog barking/snarling at normal citizens:

If you're a citizen walking your dog, you shouldn't be seeing a police k9 coming at you snarling and barking. You're right....that would be wrong. In those instances, the K9's should be under control. I didn't see any instances in the show where the dogs were out of control around citizens though. They were going after people who were known to be criminals and violent. Most agencies train their dogs to key up and bark/snarl at these criminals because it usually means that the bad guys give up and officers don't have to get injured fighting with the suspects.

The k9's that I've worked with know when to turn it on and when not to. They know when they're in the squad car that it is work and the handler keys them on when they're going after someone. Even the siren, radio use, etc keys the dog that they are in for some excitement...someone to track down, run after, or even fight with them. 

Most of these dogs (and I'm guessing for sure in a larger city like St. Paul) have had someone fight with and hurt them in the past during apprehensions. So you can imagine they get very fired up when they see/hear those cues (siren, radio, voice) coming into play. It's a completely different picture if the dog is just out for a walk in a neighborhood, etc. 

I know one of the trainers with this agency that was featured and I know that they demand control out of their dogs. I know he wouldn't let their dogs get away with barking/snarling at normal citizens on the street. Plus, any k9 agency does public demonstrations and any k9 program would be short-lived if any of those dogs were out of control around the public in those cases. 

I'm normally a very critical person, especially when it comes to police k9. But I thought the show did a very good job of accurately portraying police k9 work and the handlers did a very good job of showing some of their daily work. You have to remember that we're only getting short snapshots into these incidents....obviously things are left out because of filming and time constraints. I know I'd have a very tough time working in those conditions with cameras all around....I have to give all the officers compliments on how they showed themselves - job well done.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had the police dog coming after me while I was walking Dubya. It took two officers and a lot of yelling to get the thing under control. I did not run, I turned with my dog, not allowing it to turn and bark and lunge to give them more time to control their dog. 

I never said anthing about a dog being too big -- in response to someone else's post, just the behavior.

I would rather them use dogs with a little less drive if there was more control. If you can have super drive and super control, by all means.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI had the police dog coming after me while I was walking Dubya. It took two officers and a lot of yelling to get the thing under control. I did not run, I turned with my dog, not allowing it to turn and bark and lunge to give them more time to control their dog.
> 
> I never said anthing about a dog being too big -- in response to someone else's post, just the behavior.
> 
> I would rather them use dogs with a little less drive if there was more control. If you can have super drive and super control, by all means.


You have to understand this is the officer's partner. They put their lives in each other's hands. I would rather have a dog READY to fight the "bad guy". Drive is something that CANNOT be compromised IMO. I'll loose a little bit of control for a dog that I KNOW will do its job NO MATTER WHAT. People use animals for their advantage putting their lives at risk, yet always have to nitpick everything little detail. You are right, a civilian should never have to endure a K9 lunging and barking at them, that is a HUGE liability for the city/state. But remember, these dogs offer a HUGE service to our community.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

GSDluver4lyfe-

VERYwell said! _You are exactly right. Especially in regards to compromising drive._ We appreciate your support as a citizen. Obviously, being someone who owns working dogs with alot of drive, you probably tend to understand what doing the job really entails.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

BritneyP your hubby is a k9 handler with your local police department? that is wonderful.. my husbands DREAM job. How long did it take him to become a K9 handler? my husband does have law enforcement in his future (he is currently in the Army now) and wants to be a handler but had mentioned it would take a good 5-10 yrs after being in the PD for him to get there...


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## DanL (Jun 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ManfredI was kinda surprised how many of the dogs are Sables , I wonder why that is
> 
> Meet the Officers and their K-9 Partners
> http://animal.discovery.com/tv/k9-cops/bios/index.html


My dog is the only black and tan in one of my training clubs, and one of 2 in another. All the rest are sables and there are 2 all blacks. Most of the sables are that reddish color, which I love.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, they let the dog out of the car to go into the station and the dog was loose and it charged. This was not barking and lunging. This was a loose dog that they had to actually stop somehow. 

I really do not care if the dog is a partner. They need to be trained and safe around the public, because at some point the dog will be off-lead doing its job, and their may be someone who is not involved with a dog that is not involved, and I have no faith that the dog will do his job or go after the dog. 

Until you see a police dog charging you, you really do not know what it is like. So while I love the idea that our German shepherds are used for law enforcement. I want them to be dogs who are controllable, not nutty extreme drive beasts who will go after anything that moves or breathes. 

Those of you that like the program should be critical of dogs that are not under control and training that is not up to par. My reason for this is that when you have a situation like the one where the sledding child was attacked and mauled, the program takes a hit. Every incident where our breed is used and where its performance is not stellar, dangerous, where injuries happened unnecessarily, where the public is injured or afraid, support for both the program and our breed goes down. 

We really do not need an image of our dog to be a salivating brute eating a criminal. 

Much better a dog that goes home and plays on the grass with its owners kids.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

I think we're in agreement that police dogs should not be lunging/barking at innocent citizens. 

If your debate is in whether police dogs should be high/medium/low drive, I'll have to go high drive every time. It takes a lot for a dog to confront a human out of courage. It takes even more for a dog to stay in a fight when he is getting hurt...it takes courage that many many dogs don't have. So I'll take the high drive any day for police work. I haven't seen too many low/medium drive dogs that are great police dogs in urban environments. 

That being said, high drive does not mean out of control. You're talking about two different issues. And if we're still looking at the k9 show on tv, I didn't see any out of control dogs. I saw high drive dogs that were directed to show their presence at non-compliant suspects. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't barking/lunging at any innocent people. The dogs were very focused on their "bad guys," and ignored the innocents....to me that's just what a police dog should do.

There's also no reason that a high drive police dog cannot be settled and playing in the grass at home with the kids. One is not exclusive of the other. Most of the high drive police dogs can do exactly that - they should have balance and be stable in temperament. You have to understand that these dogs are cued up to bark at and go after criminals. When they're not cued up and working the street, they can still be stable dogs around kids/families. As I said before, most if not all police k9 units do public demonstrations - usually kids/adults can pet the dogs and they are very stable. These are still high drive dogs....they just know when to turn that drive on.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Selzer, 

I am the first to admit a dog with a crappy temperament isnt going to be much use. But there is a huge difference between a stable dog, who is doing the right thing appraching the bad guy in a threatening manner, and a dog who views everything as a threat. It doesnt matter how much physical control a handler has over a dog, if its a stable dog, it will continue to be stable. 

The standard for a good police dog recruit is already so slim, making even more modifications to that will make it nearly impossible to find any dogs to take the role of a K9. Like I said, you cant have everything in this world.  Some things need to be compromised, but drive isnt one of them.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Thanks Britney. Words cannot describe the respect I have for handlers and their K9's.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> nutty extreme drive beasts who will go after anything that moves or breathes.


That's _*exactly *_ what I want in a police dog.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9I think we're in agreement that police dogs should not be lunging/barking at innocent citizens.
> 
> If your debate is in whether police dogs should be high/medium/low drive, I'll have to go high drive every time. It takes a lot for a dog to confront a human out of courage. It takes even more for a dog to stay in a fight when he is getting hurt...it takes courage that many many dogs don't have. So I'll take the high drive any day for police work. I haven't seen too many low/medium drive dogs that are great police dogs in urban environments.
> 
> ...


Once again, you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly how we roll around here. All of our dog's are extremely social, with people AND other dogs, and they are all pretty high drive dogs. They all also have on/off switches. My husband's dog has done demos (that included bitework) and then had kids hang all over him, and much to my dismay, even been poked in the eye by them! It does not phase him because he knows exactly when he's working and when he's not, and he is extremely stable nerved. 

The fact remains, that as someone who has experience with training police K9's, I did not see a single dog on that show that was out of control or a danger to the general public.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not to mince words, but "charging" was what the dog was doing. If the two of them did not get the dog, "Attacking" would have been what the dog did. 

I have seen good police dogs, and I have seen crazy lunatic police dogs that cannot shut up in a car, go ballistic when they see a dog, and do not stop when their owners command them to. 

A lot of dogs drop out of schutzhund training when they get to bite work. Some because they do not want to bite the sleeve, others because they will not OUT when the command is given. I do not train dogs for Protection because first, I do not know what I am doing, second, if I get past the dog's natural aversion to biting so that the dog will bite at the sleeve, and then have a problem with the OUT command, I do not know if I am ready to manage the consequences. What do you do with a dog that will bite humans and won't stop on command? It sounds like a recipe for disaster. 

I do not have any problem with other people training for Schutzhund or police work. 

They used to use a lot of black and red German and American line dogs for police work. Now they use mostly working line dogs. The drive of the German showline dogs used to be enough. Now the need extreme drives. I do not understand this at all. A German Showline dog has to be capable of protection to be V or VA rated. So why is this not enough? Why is it that within the last ten years, we suddenly need pit-bull-GSDs for police dogs? How come is it that they can use Airidales and Labs for police work? I guess I just do not buy it that the Working line dogs are the only dogs capable of doing the job. Furthermore, my friend who breeds German Showlines has dogs out there that are working police dogs.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

> Quote:What do you do with a dog that will bite humans and won't stop on command?


Most police k9 teams are required to certify each year at regional/national trials. It's up to the agency to require it, but very very few opt out anymore. Part of the trials involve bitework, including control (out, recall, etc). If you don't pass, you don't certify, and your dog probably won't be working the street unless it's certified. I don't know of many police departments that could afford to have a dog that would not out from a bite....too much of a liability and the k9 unit would fall apart.

As for the show line police k9's....in the past, a lot of k9's were donated to agencies - that's a big reason why you had more of a mix of show lines/work. That's also part of the reason why you're seeing more working line GSD's in k9 units now. While some donated dogs made fantastic k9's, overall there wasn't as much reliability. There was much more of a mix of dogs that would engage with courage and dogs that wouldn't. If you have a dog that won't reliably and consistently engage a suspect or stay in a fight, an officer can die. I've seen some nasty results where dogs didn't engage or stay engaged and officers got hurt. Some of those dogs never should have been on the street. 

Using the working line dogs has made it more consistent and cost-efficient (most come from brokers that can guarantee the cost and replace the dog if it fails out of training). That's not to say that a show line dog can't make a good police k9....you'll probably just have to go through more to find the right candidate.

It can be confusing when you look at schutzhund and dogs that get those ratings. Certainly they have value, but just because a dog has a V or VA rating does not mean it could or would do real bitework on the street, where there is no visible equipment, bad guys fight back and hurt the dogs, and the dog doesn't always have the handler in sight when he engages. Although it might be a good indicator of what a dog can do, it's not a guarantee for streetwork.

As for airidales and labs and your friend's showline GSD's as k9's....I'm guessing the lab is used for detector work only. It could be patrol, but I have yet to see a lab working as a patrol (apprehension) k9. I don't know which agencies use your friend's show line GSD's, so I can't really comment specifically. And it really all depends on the dog....my experience has just been that the working lines are used more now because they've become more reliable for police k9 work.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I have seen good police dogs, and I have seen crazy lunatic police dogs that cannot shut up in a car, go ballistic when they see a dog, and do not stop when their owners command them to.


I have a question. If you openly admit to not knowing anything about protection training, then what makes you qualified to know what constitutes a "good" police dog? 




> Originally Posted By: selzer
> A lot of dogs drop out of schutzhund training when they get to bite work. Some because they do not want to bite the sleeve, others because they will not OUT when the command is given.


I've actually never seen a dog get washed out of schutzhund, or police work or any other bite sport for that matter (I do French Ring), for not outing on command. The out is something that has to be taught. Just like sit and down. Dog's don't do it automatically. Furthermore, it's a pretty widely accepted concept that all bitework training for SchH starts when dogs are puppies, with rags. It's all about grip development, and the type of gripping object gradually increases to a tug, puppy sleeve, etc. If a young dog wasn't showing the right drives to do the work, it would be far earlier than when it was learing to out off of a decoy.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I do not know if I am ready to manage the consequences. What do you do with a dog that will bite humans and won't stop on command?


All bite sports, Schutzhund especially, are equipment oriented. No dog other than a police L9 or a personal protection dog should be biting anyone that doesn't have a piece of equipment on, whether it be an external hard sleeve or a bite suit. This sort of training begins when a dog is a puppy. We convert a game of tug into a a bigger game of tug, the tug toy just turns into a sleeve or a bite suit being worn by a decoy. Your statement is pretty moot without having the proper knowledge of how these dogs are trained.




> Originally Posted By: selzer
> They used to use a lot of black and red German and American line dogs for police work. Now they use mostly working line dogs. The drive of the German showline dogs used to be enough.


According to whom? As far as I'm concerned, the age of police K9 usage and training has come a loooong way from 20 years ago. Not only are we using primarily all positive, motivational training methods, we are also using much better bred dogs, with a higher workability and trainability, as well as being smaller and healthier (for the most part). Also, in the days of using primarily Showline dogs, there was MUCh less control and reliability, because most of those dogs were nerve bags that should have never been on the street in the first place. No/low drive = a dog that you cannot rely on to do it's job no matter WHAT it's facing.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Now the need extreme drives. I do not understand this at all.


Do you understand police K9 training at all?



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> A German Showline dog has to be capable of protection to be V or VA rated. So why is this not enough?


Because Schutzhund is a sport that uses external equipment. There is no true test of "courage" than the one that involves your K9 partner apprehending a suspect in order to protect you, and being repeatedly kicked, punched, or even stabbed and expected to stay in the fight until commanded to do otherwise. This is absolutely NOT expected of Schutzhund dogs, or any other bite sport dogs for that matter. My husband's dog recently had a 12 gauge shot gun fired directly over his head while making an apprehension. Instead of immediately releasing and running for the hills and being ruined for the rest of his life... he bit harder. You MUST have a dog you can count on.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> How come is it that they can use Airidales and Labs for police work?


Because those dogs are used a single purpose detection dogs. Drugs, Explosives, Human remains, Arson, Firearms, etc.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I guess I just do not buy it that the Working line dogs are the only dogs capable of doing the job. Furthermore, my friend who breeds German Showlines has dogs out there that are working police dogs.


They aren't. However, you're going to have to weed through a lot more dogs that don't come from working lines to find a really good one. Kudos to your friend. She must have nice dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A "good police dog" is one that does not charge me when I am walking my dog. I have seen both kinds. The one that DID charge me while walking my dog, was a sable working line dog. 

I know that it is not cut and dried, but this dog IS a police dog in the service of our sherriff's department. THEY do not see any liability with having a dog that WILL attack someone's dog while it is being walked by its owner. 

I said that I would not train in bite work, because I do not want to deal with the consequences of having a dog I can turn on, and not turn off. 

I would rather see a dog used for tracking/trailing, drug/explosive detection, search and rescue, cadaver, and a variety of other things good police dogs can be used for, like crowd control; and not see them used primarily to protect their handler if it means dogs that will go nuts for no reason, ie. a siren, tv cameras in the cruiser, an individual walking their dog. 

A dog that did not have to be dragged back with both hands could heel at his handlers side waiting for a command to engage, and leaving the officers hands free so that he can have access to all the equipment they carry around. 

While some dogs have to engage the really bad guys, a lot more dogs are used for street fairs, drug checks in schools, dealing with the mentally unstable. For these circumstances, you probably don't want an extreme dog. 

BritneyP, I find the tone of you statements very demeaning. I have an opinion as a citizen who is funding these programs and who happens to vote for or against monies for the sherriff's department. If we the civilians think that the program is not good, or not properly run, we can make a difference in it. I read a book about police dog training nearly thirty years ago and have been interested and following the use of dogs for police work ever since. I have always supported this program. My support now is wavering because I have seen dogs in the program today that are plain scarey. I am not so concerned with what these dogs might do to criminals, but what they can do to ordinary people. 

Our department trains their own dogs, which I am sure is a lot cheaper than buying a trained police dog or sending a dog and handler to an academy. The problem is the standards that the dogs are expected to meet may not be the same as what you may be experiencing. Years ago -- back when they had black and reds and purchased them or their training from an outside source, the paper would discuss how the dogs did at regional and statewide police dog events. I have not heard anything about how our dogs have been doing at such events lately. 

My point is that your department and your husband may see one thing. And I may be seeing a whole other story where I am. You may feel confident in your dogs that none of them will end up on the wrong side of a civil suit. Where I feel confident that our dogs will. In fact, besides myself, there was another woman in the northern part of our county that was attacked by one of our dogs. I believe this happened though I did not read about it, I heard it from someone walking her dog. But with my own experience it is not hard to believe.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

My statements might seem demeaning because I will defend the dogs that I have trained/worked with/sold, etc. until the cows come home, and I get very defensive when someone who openly admits to not having the knowledge of the type of training and dedication that goes into these dogs, is criticizing them.

You have an experience with ONE dog. There are Thousands of police dogs around the country. I'd have to go ahead and find it pretty jaded of you to base your opinion of these dogs (and their handlers for that matter) on your "experience" with one dog. Did the dog maul you and your dog or did it not? You said it was off leash, and despite the fact that it took two officers to call the dog off, it still called off. If it wasn't under voice control, it would have most definately kept coming at you.

This is the first post you have made in six pages where you admitted to narrowing your opinion to strictly the dog's that you have seen in your area. You are very right, it could be completely different out there. However I know dogs/handlers in many states throughout the country and they are all on par with the same training standards and certifications that we use out here. If a dog isn't certified to nationally recognized standards, it shouldn't be working the road, IMHO. Plain and simple. 

I find it very unfortunate that you have such a sour taste in your mouth about high drive, working line police k9s. These dogs do a tremendous service to our community, all for some praise or a toy. There are actually ALOT of dog's that have to face the "bad guy", whether you want to believe it or not.

And you are correct, none of my dogs that I own or have sold will ever be on the wrong side of a law suit. My husband's partner is an extreme dog, and he regularly does demos that involve bitework, gunfire, etc. and then when he's done, lets people of all shapes and sizes pet him and love him and crawl all over him.

It's all about genetics and proper training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, I watched them tackle the dog to get control of it. I heard the dog coming and walked with Dubya to give the officers more time as they were both yelling at the dog. I did not run. But I wanted to keep Dubya's face turned in the opposite direction. Then I went in front of Dubya and turned around in time to see them dragging the dog away still growling, barking and trying to get to me. 

That was one dog. 

Maybe it was the same dog that attacked the woman and her dog in a neighboring town. The sherriff is for the whole county, and even villages/cities that have a PD will call in the sherriff for dogs. 

If it was the same dog, I hope someone is keeping a record. 

I walk my dogs a lot in town. Every time the Sherriff K9 vehicles go by -- this happens a lot as we are the county seat, and I walk my dogs late -- the dog which ever it is goes ballistic in the back seat of the cruiser. It sees my dog and loses its mind. Somehow, I do not think that that makes for a good police dog. I mean if they are going after a suspect and I am walking down the street with my dog, is the dog going to stick with the perp, or go for my dog? I do not know. And on that k9 program I heard the officer yelling get the dog inside! Get the dog inside! Makes you wonder. Makes me wonder, you may know. 

So yes, I am basing what I am saying on the department I am most familiar with. I am going to run a search on the internet for police dog attacks on civilians and maybe try to find out whether they were working line dogs. Chances are mixed that they are. If a dog with less drive is less likely to engage at all, then he would be less likely to bite a civilian. But if a dog who is less likely to engage has been trained harshly to engage regardless, he may not always make the best decisions. I think it will be interesting.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> I walk my dogs a lot in town. Every time the Sherriff K9 vehicles go by -- this happens a lot as we are the county seat, and I walk my dogs late -- the dog which ever it is goes ballistic in the back seat of the cruiser. It sees my dog and loses its mind. Somehow, I do not think that that makes for a good police dog. I mean if they are going after a suspect and I am walking down the street with my dog, is the dog going to stick with the perp, or go for my dog? I do not know. And on that k9 program I heard the officer yelling get the dog inside! Get the dog inside! Makes you wonder. Makes me wonder, you may know.


Not all police dogs are dog friendly. They are dogs, after all. Having a police K9 isn't always about having a "well rounded citizen", so to speak. It's about having a dog that can recover evidence, track lost persons or fleeing criminals, educate children and the community, detect narcotics or explosives, etc. and MOST importantly, defend your life if you need them to. Also, many dogs are "barrier aggressive" and go nus out of frustration. You see this a lot in shelters, kennels, etc. The dog barking at your dog may not necessarily even be truly dog aggressive. If it is, then that does not discount it's abilities to do it's job. Being a good police K9 does not require a dog to be dog-friendly. And yes, if a dog is properly trained, even if it is DA, it will continue to do it's job regardless.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> So yes, I am basing what I am saying on the department I am most familiar with.


Well that's a little unfair, don't you think?



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I am going to run a search on the internet for police dog attacks on civilians and maybe try to find out whether they were working line dogs. Chances are mixed that they are.


Do tell me what you come up with. I'd be more than willing to bet that not only will you not find much, because it doesn't happen often. Also, don't be surprised if what you do find unveils a German or American showline type dog.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> If a dog with less drive is less likely to engage at all, then he would be less likely to bite a civilian. But if a dog who is less likely to engage has been trained harshly to engage regardless, he may not always make the best decisions. I think it will be interesting.


I dog should not be "less likely to engage". Period. That is not acceptable. That is a sign of bad nerves and the dog should not be on the street. I don't care how doggie friendly and polite and black and red it is. There is also no reason to use "harsh methods" to try to get the dog to engage. bad nerves are genetic and the dog should be washed from the program. There's no reason to even make the comparison.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"Man Arrested then Attacked 
Robert Jerome McAfee III, 24, was reportedly being arrested for being drunk in public when the dog bit his neck and torso. 

The bites were supposedly so severe that he had to be transported by air from the Woodland Memorial Hospital to the Stanford University Hospital. 

The dog that pounced on McAfee, Lugar, is said to have had a history of making such attacks at spontaneous times. 

Victim Takes Action with Suit"

********************************************

I don't know if this guy was really drunk and disorderly. But the dog has a history of making such attacks at spontaneous times -- why is it still working???

At a football game, an Aubern player gets bitten by a police dog. He was walking away at the the time, and the thing grabbed his hand. The officer got him to disengage and then SEEMED to say something that did not seem appologetic to the football player. 

This is really, really interesting. It will not change what I think of using dogs for police work. But it is interesting.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

If you are truly interested in why the dog is still working, I encourage you to call the department and inquire. As a citizen living in the community where these dogs work, I don't see why you shouldn't be given an answer. In my opinion, the dog shouldn't be working. Then again, I also hate the media and I don't typically base my opinions on anything they write.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MCKEES ROCKS (KDKA) ― More than six years after a McKees Rocks boy was mauled by a police dog, his family says his medical bills are approaching half a million dollars.

Lorraine and Mark Anthony Livingston, who now live in Stanton Heights, say their adopted son, 15-year-old Brandon Livingston, is still receiving mental health treatment, and probably will for years to come. 

"There has not been not any type of money paid, not even for a Tylenol for Brandon," says Lorraine. "Right now he can't sleep at night."

The attack happened to him one afternoon back in June of 2002. 

The boy - then 9 years old - was on his porch when a police dog named "Dolpho" got away from his owner - Police Officer Shawn Barger - and mauled him. The police were in pursuit of a drug suspect in the neighborhood. 

Barger said at the time that as soon as he saw the dog on the little boy, he jumped on the dog, tackled him, put him in a headlock. 

************************************************
Dog was a GSD. And it was going after a suspect and was diverted to some little kid on a porch. Now, why should I believe that a dog might just divert a police dog? They are after all dogs and do not have to be good citizens and dog friendly to do their job. 

These are all different states I believe. And there were others as well, one where the dog went through the restraints in the car to get to a person and bite them. 

The one that bit the little kid looked like a black and red. The one that bit the college football player looked like a sable. I am not sure about the others. But then I was only doing this for a short while. And I forgot all about the mailman. And the kid that was sledding. 

I am sure there are plenty of incidents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not a citizen in THAT community -- it is Sacremento.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are going to be incidents because dogs are dogs, people are people. people are sometimes stupid and do not hear or listen and do stupid things around a dog. Dogs are sometimes not trained well or are unstable. Not every police dog handler is a good police dog handler. 

You have to expect there to be incidents. I think we can agree that the contribution made by police dogs does justify their existance. My only concern is do they have to be as extreme as some of them are to do the job? You say yes they do. I am not so sure.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> I am sure there are plenty of incidents.


Over a span of how many years that police dogs have been used in this country? The fact of that matter is that it does not happen every day, or every week, or every month. In 52 states in this country and amongst thousands of dogs.

Exactly what are you trying to prove here? We can certainly drop this discussion all together if you'd like to go back to your fantasy of low drive, black and red, doggie loving, AKC obedience titled, German V or VA rated dogs being the BEST police dogs... because I have no trouble going back to knowing what REALLY are good police dogs.


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## Manfred (Sep 15, 2008)

For anyone who's interested , the TV Show K9 Cops comes on in about 5 minutes


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Just to reiterate, I'm pretty sure I was more than willing to admit that bad training/handling is certainly a reality... in my first post, no less.



> Originally Posted By: BritneyP
> 
> First of all, it's important to state that not all K9 training programs and k9 handlers are created equally. Unfortunately, there are more than a few handlers out there that do not see their position as a priviledge and do not take it seriously enough. There are also alot of places that have dogs on the street that should have never been there in the first place. Still today, there are alot of K9's out there with poor genetics, crappy nerves, and just barely squeak by certifications, but probably wouldn't apprehend someone without equipment on. It all boils down to two things in my mind: genetics (of the dogs) and proper training.


Where in this entire discussion have you admitted to the fact that not all working line dogs, sable or otherwise, are out of control, man-eating beasts who have no place in a K9 unit?


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ManfredFor anyone who's interested , the TV Show K9 Cops comes on in about 5 minutes


I'm watching. It was cool to see a bi-color for a change...lol Usually sables


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Which one is the bi-color? I've only seen the black sable with tar heels, they are all so beautiful!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Interesting discussion here! I have not seen the show, but I do work at a kennel that imports and sells k9's to police depts, US and foreign military programs.
From what I see most handlers have 0 animal experience, and most departments seem to be new, developing, or not experienced. Although there are some excellent k9 police programs, they are not prevelent. Which is unfair to the citizens, the k9 handlers esp. the new ones, and the dogs.
It is 'interesting' (annoying) that so many ex-k9 cops and military handlers are training police and military k9's today. IMO, they learned how to HANDLE dogs appx. 20 years ago, then learned one rough method of "training" these dogs, which does not qualify you to be sending these dogs all over the place. I see many of these people filling a need to make money, yet doing a **** job and have no business working with animals in general. 
You may find kennels that are training dogs for this work and be impressed, but I think would be surprised to see the medicrocy and big show that goes on. It is no different than learning agility, obedience, disc etc. I can say this because I am doing it. The main component missing is time invested. Since it is a business to sell these dogs for a lot of money they are pushed through, and that is why you see over the top dogs on the street that shouldn't be there. 
If a handler cannot be tactical (ie shoot) because the dog has no obedience or control, that is unacceptable to me. I do not expect these dogs to be able to be pet by children or interact with other dogs, but I do expect them to be able to react to their handler and ignore these distractions while working. This includes being in the back of the car.

I have also seen supposed "positive methods" used with them, which are a poor excuse for positive. Although I am aware that some depts are really following a good positive program, most are BS. Really it disgusts me, and is very dishearting. And I can say that the reason that the dogs are handled so roughly is because the minimal time required is put into these dogs before the k9 units get them. Usually the are green before the depts. buy them. Some are really good, but overall the obedience sucks.
My opinion is, if you need such a high drive dog to ensure that he will do his job, he better have high enough drive that he can handle obedience without shutting down. If he can't, then I am not impressed with the training or the dog. Again, the only reason for medicrocy in this is because of a lack of effort, and greed at suppliers that are importing and selling these dogs all over the place.

Sorry for the rant, had to throw my 2 cents in! And just to end on a good note, there are excellent k9 teams in both the military and police depts and I hope that the k9 programs continue to grow and become more streamlined here in the US and they do deserve respect as do all military and police service members.


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## grmnshpd21 (May 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlWhich one is the bi-color? I've only seen the black sable with tar heels, they are all so beautiful!


I believe Deuce is the bi-color. He may be a blanket black and tan....I can never tell the difference


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Andy is the bi-color, Deuce is a blanket black and tan.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlWhich one is the bi-color? I've only seen the black sable with tar heels, they are all so beautiful!


Andy









And he is gorgeous!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

MTAussie, I truly hope you aren't pointing fingers, because just to clarify, my husband trained obedience, agility and personal protection dogs for 10 years before becoming a k9 handler and long before even becoming a cop. We both work full time jobs and have a very small output of dogs to police departments. We do not import dogs. The only dog I have ever imported is my husband's dog. Dogs we have sold to PDs are dogs we have bred, raised and trained ourselves. I do this because I have hte knowledge and experience to do it. I am not a police officer by profession, I am a vet tech.

I will agree with you though, that K9 handlers are not K9 trainers. Being a handler does not make you a trainer and as far as large dog suppliers are concerned, the best and most reputable ones I know of are not even involved in law enforcement at all.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

Very nice looking dogs. Selzer, hopefully you were able to watch tonight's episode and got a better idea of what these dogs are about....they turn on for work, then turn off and can play with kids. And they are not all sables...high drive dogs come in all colors...I'm not sure where the sable stereotype came from. Also, as you can now see, the handlers typically use both hands for the dog and leave the weapons coverage to cover officers. Personally, I thought it was a great episode...hopefully more good ones to come!



> Quote:I would rather see a dog used for tracking/trailing, drug/explosive detection, search and rescue, cadaver, and a variety of other things good police dogs can be used for, like crowd control; and not see them used primarily to protect their handler if it means dogs that will go nuts for no reason, ie. a siren, tv cameras in the cruiser, an individual walking their dog.
> 
> A dog that did not have to be dragged back with both hands could heel at his handlers side waiting for a command to engage, and leaving the officers hands free so that he can have access to all the equipment they carry around.
> 
> While some dogs have to engage the really bad guys, a lot more dogs are used for street fairs, drug checks in schools, dealing with the mentally unstable. For these circumstances, you probably don't want an extreme dog.


It sounds like you're looking for a police k9 program that is soft and just looks kind of nice. Unfortunately, that's not the reality of police work. Police work in urban environments is tough. We don't use our dogs for crowd control....that was a thing of the 60's and not very accepted anymore. You may see it, but rarely.

If the k9's are at street fairs, it is simply for show or to give a demonstration. And a true tracking/trailing police dog will go after suspects, therefore putting the handler in danger, therefore needing to protect the handler. To use a soft dog that will not engage for an urban tracking/trailing call would be extremely dangerous for the dog and handler. You're setting both up to get injured or killed.

If you have a problem with a specific dog at your agency, I think you should address that agency about that dog......rather than making assumptions about all police k9's and their handlers. Otherwise, try to learn from the experts in this area about what police k9's are and what they do, rather than just criticize.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Selzer, there seems to be an issue going beyond police dogs. I think you have an issue with working line dogs, who hold true to standard. You had one bad experience, and basing all your knowledge on that. When I was a child I was attacked by a pit bull and you dont see me running around screaming pit bulls are evil, just because of one bad experience due to improper handling and training skills. If you are that concerned about that dog, you need to do something about it, instead of sitting on the internet complaining and bringing up irrelevant dog bites to demean all the work and dedication that goes into training these dogs. 

Do you not understand that the dog is the officer's partner. Why do officers come in pairs? Because it makes their chances of survival that much stronger. These handlers and their dogs are faced with very dangerous situations daily, and knowing the dog will do its job and not shut down overpowers something as minor are reactive behaviors when confined. 

As stated before these dogs risk their lives to protect our community, and to come here and try to take that away from them is WRONG. 

I watched the show tonight, and NONE of those dogs seemed out of control NONE.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Well I watched some of K-9 Cops last night before heading to bed.

Our favorite is Charlie


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSDluver4lyfeSelzer, there seems to be an issue going beyond police dogs. I think you have an issue with working line dogs, who hold true to standard.


It's rather obvious, isn't it?




> Quote:These handlers and their dogs are faced with very dangerous situations daily, and knowing the dog will do its job and not shut down overpowers something as minor are reactive behaviors when confined.


I don't consider these behaviors bad at all. The dog needs to know WHEN to turn off and on. These are smart, smart dogs and, as said during the show, they pick up on the little things. How many people here have dogs who get CRAZY the moment they hear their leashes? It's the same **** thing. Sirens on? OH BOY OH BOY I GET TO WORK!!! WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET THERE, HURRY HURRY HURRY!!! But to people who have no experience whatsoever with working line dogs, they don't understand how much more extreme their reactions are to certain things. THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM EXCELLENT K9 CANDIDATES.



> Quote:I watched the show tonight, and NONE of those dogs seemed out of control NONE.










But, again, to someone who has zero experience with working line dogs, I can see how they would seem "out of control".


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I watched the second show last night, again, I thought it was great! I can't remember which dog is was, but the handler explained that if he didn't have his favorite toy with him in the back, he would be barking the entire time. He also explained that the dogs pick up on things and can tell when they are about to do some bad guy catching









This has been interesting, because I've learned a lot about K-9 police dogs. The one officer also explained that they are totally "on" while working. But they did a very good job of showing them at home, just being dogs.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_DogI watched the second show last night, again, I thought it was great! I can't remember which dog is was, but the handler explained that if he didn't have his favorite toy with him in the back, he would be barking the entire time.


I think that was the third dog gnawing on his black Kong?


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

I happen to know there will be one less aggressive and out of control dog in your county now, Selzer, as one of mine is going there next week.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

As I watched all I could think about is WHERE ARE THEIR BULLETPROOF VESTS?? 

I couldn't imagine sending my partner into danger without a simple vest on.

Where are the vests? Not enough money to buy them? With all that is spent on training and acquiring these dogs you would think we could protect our investment with a mere vest.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I believe dog vests are somewhat controversial and not always a good idea--overheating is an issue.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyPI happen to know there will be one less aggressive and out of control dog in your county now, Selzer, as one of mine is going there next week.












I too had heard that the vests did not really lend themsleves to the dogs well, hard for them to move and over heating.

This has been an interesting thread.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I think that was the third dog gnawing on his black Kong?[/quote] 


Yep, that was the one! I bring it up, because the first episode showed the female officer's dog, Chase, barking a lot in the car, and that was mentioned here somewhere.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

I made a comment to Andrew last night at the first dog's whining in the car...

"Yep, I recognize that sound. That was the sound Tobey made when he realized he had to pee really bad."

(He had a habit of play play play..."I THINK I have to tinkle...nah"...play play play...."uh oh! I gotta go!")

Now every time I hear that Shepherd in the back of the patrol car whining, I think of him having to potty - lol.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> 
> I too had heard that the vests did not really lend themsleves to the dogs well, hard for them to move and over heating.


That is mostly true. A lot of dogs actually do have the vests, but it's controversial as to when/where is apropriate situations to use them.


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## Manfred (Sep 15, 2008)

vests , I would think would be a very bad idea , these dogs go through very tight spaces , back yard shrubs , bushes , over chain link fences , I would think the last thing you would want it to have your dog trying to jump a 4 foot chain link fence , just for it to get snagged on the top , I just think a vest would get snagged on to many things .


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BritneyPMTAussie, I truly hope you aren't pointing fingers, because just to clarify, my husband trained obedience, agility and personal protection dogs for 10 years before becoming a k9 handler and long before even becoming a cop. We both work full time jobs and have a very small output of dogs to police departments. We do not import dogs. The only dog I have ever imported is my husband's dog. Dogs we have sold to PDs are dogs we have bred, raised and trained ourselves. I do this because I have the knowledge and experience to do it. I am not a police officer by profession, I am a vet tech.
> 
> I will agree with you though, that K9 handlers are not K9 trainers. Being a handler does not make you a trainer and as far as large dog suppliers are concerned, the best and most reputable ones I know of are not even involved in law enforcement at all.


Britney, def. not pointing fingers, just ranting about my personal experiences. Sorry







I am really interested in your training. Do you have a website? I am just looking to compare what other kennels do for training concerning police/military work. I like that you raise the dogs you train for this work. The import dogs can be great, I just don't like it. It bums me out, but we deal with a high volume of dogs and it seems that police depts prefer dogs that are imported. I would be interested in your opinion on that if you are willing to give it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ManfredI was kinda surprised how many of the dogs are Sables , I wonder why that is
> 
> Meet the Officers and their K-9 Partners
> http://animal.discovery.com/tv/k9-cops/bios/index.html


http://animal.discovery.com/tv/k9-cops/
If you go to the homepage above link, there is a quiz on k-9s. I only got 5 out of 10


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## Nikkoli110 (Sep 9, 2008)

I finally got to watching the show tonight, and LOVE it!! What a great show! I love seeing them working, its great! DH loves the show, too, as well as Katie, she's doing the whole radar ears head tilt right now watching


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BritneyP, where we are, police officers do not always have back up. Often it is the officer and his dog. So the idea that the officer needs both hands to manage the dog and leave the gun play to others may not work here. 

I think that when breeding is done for extremes, whether it be angulation for the showlines, or drives for the working lines, the breeder is playing on the edge. I think that what can result is dogs that are good for nothing. Out of a working litter one or two may have what it takes to be police dogs. What happens to the other six to ten dogs? Are they suitable for the average buyer? 

I think the working lines are great. I just do not like seeing the extremes being touted as the best of the best in any venue. 

And since when are we not allowed to have an opinion? In the wrong hands a showline dog can be a disaster waiting to happen. I think that the pool of competant hands shrinks when you increase the engergy and drive to extreme levels. This will result in more incidents which will result in more problems for people with GSDs. 

And is it just me, but are K9 handlers very free with their dog's sperm? I mean, if I had a buck for every person that told me that the sire was a police dog, I could pay off a credit card. While a working police dog is a good criteria for being breedworthy, it is not necessarily a good criteria for breeding to every bitch whose owners are asking, because those bitches' owners, do not have the experience, and their really aren't that many people out there that SHOULD own such a dog. 

And the fact is, there are a bazillion people out there that WOULD buy the dog BECAUSE its pop was a police dog. The vast majority of them are not willing or able to give the dog enough excersize to satisfy a couch potato dog.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I think that what can result is dogs that are good for nothing. Out of a working litter one or two may have what it takes to be police dogs. What happens to the other six to ten dogs? Are they suitable for the average buyer?


Just to clarify- In my mind, and with the dogs I breed and work with, none of the dogs I've seen on that show thus far I would consider extreme. They are just working dogs with drive and are excited to do their job and have fun. 

Also, yes- you will have pet quality puppies in a litter. You will also have low/medium drive dogs that will make great competitive obedience dogs, agility dogs, etc. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> And is it just me, but are K9 handlers very free with their dog's sperm? I mean, if I had a buck for every person that told me that the sire was a police dog, I could pay off a credit card.


I'm sorry that you see this alot, I don't. It sounds like dogs and the world of owning them and breeding them is alot different where you are. However, yes, some handlers actually own their dogs, other's departments allow them to breed the dog, and I'm sure others do it regardless of whether their department has a policy or not. I can't account for those people. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> While a working police dog is a good criteria for being breedworthy, it is not necessarily a good criteria for breeding to every bitch whose owners are asking, because those bitches' owners, do not have the experience, and their really aren't that many people out there that SHOULD own such a dog.


as the own of a stud dog and a bitch, I can safely say that I've never dealt with anyone who did not require health testing, working titles, etc. in order to breed to their animals. I don't know about these "random bitch owners". Again, maybe we do things a bit differently out here. As dar as I'm concerned, most people shouldn't be breeding period, nevermind to police dogs.



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> And the fact is, there are a bazillion people out there that WOULD buy the dog BECAUSE its pop was a police dog. The vast majority of them are not willing or able to give the dog enough excersize to satisfy a couch potato dog.


That's where the breeder's responsibility to match the appropriate puppy to the appropriate home comes in. If I felt every puppy in a litter was suitable for police work, I'd keep all of them. If they were all pet quality, I'd place them all in pet homes. I don't let people pick puppies by how cute they are. If a buyer is serious enough about owning a dog for the next 10-15 years, then they will be willing to let me decide which dog I feel will be right for them.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Again, these dogs seem extreme TO YOU. Funny how not a single person that actually lives with a drivey dog thinks those dogs are extreme. I actually enjoy seeing all the similarities between those dogs and my dog. I lost count of how many times I thought, "that's exactly what Flash is like, that's exactly what he does when [x]". What seems extreme to one person is normal to another. Flash is normal to me. To the average 6-pack Joe (gotta insert that political reference







) that has never worked with a dog who possesses REAL drive, he is extreme.

Does he have drive? Yes. Does he have more drive than the average dog (ie, extreme to most people)? Yes. Does he do bitework? Yes. Does he track? Yes. Is he intelligent? Yes. Does he want to please? Yes. Does he want to work? Yes. Does he have an on/off switch? Yes. Is he content to sleep at my feet while I type this? Yes. Will he hop right to work if I say certain words? Yes. Is he safe with people? Yes. Is he safe with babies? Yes.

Seems to me his breeder accomplished everything they wanted. A stable dog with drive (the stable part is important, an unstable dog with drive is useless) and a desire to work. Yet if you met him you'd probably consider him extreme. Just like not every person should own a GSD, not every person should own a working line. Tough cookies. No breeder should let the pet market dictate their breeding decisions. You find homes for the specific puppies that are whelped, not for an entire litter.

Are there working line breeders out there breeding psychotic dogs? I'm sure of it. But don't generalize the entire line based on those few people or one encounter you had with a k9.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Thanks Jess!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BritneyP, I appreciated your last post yesterday, but was too tired to respond to it. 

I love to watch a well-trained dog in action. I guess I have to get past the idea that barking, lunging, snarling dogs are not well-trained.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Never mind...


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

LOL! Of course now I MUST know what you we're going to say!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you ought to say it. 

"As stated before these dogs risk their lives to protect our community, and to come here and try to take that away from them is WRONG." 

This was one of your last comments. You have a way with anthromorphizing dogs. A dog doesn't think about tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow the way humans do. A dog does not worry about who will take care of his brats if he croaks. I really do not know that dogs understand the concept of death. How do you risk your life and how does that have the same meaning if you have no concept of death? But I know what your are trying to say. Police dogs do excellent things for the community and their officer handlers and we all should love them for it. 

My problem with this idea is that IF you give police dogs a free pass, and overlook things, and allow dogs that have issues to continue to serve the public, you are endangering the whole program. Public opinion can change in a heartbeat. Public opinion matters. With enough pressure from the public, police dog programs can be cut, which would be terribly sad. 

I am harsh with people who let their GSDs roam free, who have allowed their GSD to bite someone, who do not pick up after their dog in public places, who take dogs into places where it is not the norm and then fail to manage their dog. This is because our breed takes a hit and dog owners take a hit when people act irresponsibly. My personal pet peeve is the accidental breeding. The point is the more documented incidents that happen, the closer we come to breed bans, rental banning due to breed, homowner insurance nightmares, mandatory spay/neuter, and the list goes on. Every incident that police dogs have been involved in where an innocent person is injured or shaken has an impact on the program as a whole. If dogs with extreme drives are more likely to make these errors, then I would prefer to not go after the extreme drives, and go for better control, to preserve the program. 

If the dogs with the extreme drives do not present more of a problem than dogs with high drive doing the job, then, it is a moot point. I think that the current vote is the dogs that I would consider extreme do not contribute more issues.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

But I would argue that it is not the dogs and their drives that causes problems, but inadequate training for dogs and handlers, and selecting inapropriate dogs that lack the stability required for the work. 

The solution is not to breed dogs with less drive, it is to have better people involved with the breeding, training, selection and handling processes.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

From Selzer "I thought the second dog -- the one with the female officer was absolutely insane. That barking in the vehicle would have made me pull over and shoot the dog. It was like he could not turn off at all. And the way he dragged the officer around -- is this really necessary for a police dog? I suppose seconds count, and being keyed up is important. 

I think that I would rather have a dog that was in tune with the whole situation and go in thinking, not just forging ahead too excited to think. 

I just cannot picture that dog relaxing in its handler's home. Maybe they have a working collar and a not-working collar, that the dog is totally ON when he has the one collar on. 

I did not like that dog at all. Sorry. "

Hmm based on one short show--sorry but you are very very wrong!!
Officer Nicole Rasmussen trained with our Schutzhund club and is a friend of mine. She titled her bitch, now retired, to schH1 before getting selected to the SPPDK9. She had a six year old rescued female and trained it BH to Sch1 with quite good scores. Very hard to do with an older rescued dog.
Her k-9 Chase, 18 months old I believe in this show, is not what you think he is. He is a social dog, with a civil side, quite calm and playful and goofy at home. He is extremely stable. He has gotten A LOT of apprehensions in St. Paul in his young career. Your ignorance and, generalizations are off the mark.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

another thing, the dogs are the proprty of the PD department, often they don't even know the pedigree. They aren't out there making a stud out their dog. Used to be the Police had to get the communities rejected dogs and were donated--dogs with nerve and temperament issues. Not so much anymore.

Some shouldn't be bred, But I think some out to be considered because they may have traits that need to be preserved. I am of the opinion that the GSD is a Working dog. PERIOD. 

I think the "incidents" that selzer alludes to are likely multifactorial and just eliminating drivey extremes ain't gonna solve it. Geez, training is evolving as well as handling. Yes breeding for extreme drives needs to be avoided, but I must say, many of these dogs are balanced in their drives. However, one thing for sure: THEY LOVE TO WORK AS A GOOD GSD WILL.
Go hang out with the K-9 as a ride a long on their shift, observe training and talk to people who know what they are doing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry that your friend's dog looked like an out of control nutcase to me. I really do not care if it is or if it isn't. The perception is that it is out of control, and requires brute strength to hold it back. 

It is an opinion. You have one, I have one. In your opinion, mine is wrong, fine, you're entitled to that. Ya know what, I am not even going to call you ignorant, even if you do not know a thing about how K9s are managed here.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You know, it is amazing how a little bit of personal experience actualy _working_ a dog in protection can change a person's opinion and perception. I know it did for me. It sure did wonders in helping me learn more about dog behaviour and training. Initially, I started Schutzhund because my dog was (in my mind) a wild, uncontrolled beast that needed serious taming. I know that some people think the opposite about Schutzhund - believing that it is about giving up control and allowing a dog's raging aggression out - as per THEIR _perception_. 

On the other hand, I saw that Schtuzhund was ALL about control, and wanted to use and learn these dog handling/training skills. 

Now, with my new-found insight stemming from actual experience, I see my dog as a soft, easy dog, and was thirsting for a greater training challenge and got a more driven working-line pup to work with - who so far has been nothing but a joy to have. 

So we can all start out with a certain opinion and perception, but we should all be open to learning and opening our minds to new ideas and broadening our understanding through discussions and a willingness to learn.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, Scarlet has the temperament for a schutzhund, not just me but I had the litter assessed and maybe, if I choose to keep her, I will go that route with her.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Selzer, I'm finding it really hard to believe that the K9 program is Ashtabula County, Ohio is just in it's own little world and is completely different than any of the programs any of us from other parts of the country. It seems quite well run to me, with the correct and necessary training to have dogs that will perform under any circumstances. I wouldn't be sending my dog there if it wasn't. And actually, I don't know if they are just not busy in the town you live in, but overall, for being out in the middle of nowhere, they seem to deal with their fair share of violent crimes on a pretty regular basis.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Selzer, YOU came here putting K9's down. Whether they know they are risking their lives or not, you put them down. US humans know what they do and we should appreciate and respect their cause no matter what. Also, you are putting down those people who dedicate their lives to training these dogs, and those who handle these dogs, also risking their own life to protect YOU.

Britney, I was going to comment about selzer's "lunging barking snarling". That when the situation calls for it an "out of control" (note the quotations) dog can make situations much easier and get the suspect to comply with the officer much faster. And more and likely the dog wont even have to be used. It keeps things much safer for all parties involved, IMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Watever. I have been here for thirty years and other than a few of the cities in the north (that have their own police departments), it is really a low crime area. There are some meth labs. In that time an officer in Ashtabula was killed and a dog, Cero was killed. I think your chances are better as a sherriff's deputy than say a CEI lineman or a farmer. Some times people get killed doing any job. 

GSDloverforlyfe, I came here with an opinion about one of the dogs on the show. Big hairy one. 

You can say what you want, but what 100 great dogs do can be wiped out completely by what 1 dog does. I do NOT want to see the program scrapped, which could very well happen with out of control dogs. I listed some examples of out of control dogs. They exist. And if you love the police so much that you are blind, you are doing them no favors.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I can't see where anyone has said that police dogs are all great, stable dogs - only that they SHOULD all be stable...

Think of it from a suspect's point of view - if you see a K9 quietly standing by their handler you might think "Hey maybe I can get away, that dog looks like a wuss." But if you see a dog that's trying his hardest to get to you, you'd think twice about running. The dog was doing his job. To judge a dog over 2 minutes of footage when he was working is not right - what if, in another episode, they show him at a school with kids fawning all over him? 

Drive is very important in a working dog - they have to do long, exhausting searches. Any normal dog would give up when the search got tough - you need that intensity to keep the dog going. We could talk about how so many of the VA dogs have "fake" titles and would run for cover under real pressure, but that's another topic









I'm sorry, but for every negative article you post about a K9 there are a dozen about the dogs who are true heroes. It's very pessimistic to only look at the bad things a few dogs do...

Oh well, I just wanted to post in support of the wonderful dogs out there keeping people safe!!!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Very well said, phgsd!


P.S. I live you for this!











> Originally Posted By: phgsd VA dogs have "fake" titles and would run for cover under real pressure, but that's another topic


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. 

It does not matter what thousands of great GSDs do, when we allow our dogs to get loose, and they injure people or other people's animals it negates all the wonderful dogs and people start screaming for breed bans, etc. 

The same could be true for police dogs. Enough incidents and the public will turn on them and the programs will be cut back. 

Everyone thinks I am attacking police dogs. I am not. I had an opinion about one dog/handler team. My opion of that is backed up by having a police dog charge me for walking my dog. My fear is that we are going to continue to try and make the most extreme dogs we can for police work and incidents will increase, and you may actually breed yourself out of yet another profession. 

I heard that most seeing eye schools are using labs and goldens now and won't use shepherds any more. It is a shame. It can happen in other venues as well. 

If they could take dogs that people donated and from shelters and turn them into war dogs, then maybe we can take decent GSDs and make them into Police dogs, that can and do do the job, but are not strung out like a tasmanian devil. 

So its all about what the perp thinks. If the perp thinks the dog is an out of control nutcase, then he will give up. I suppose that's possible.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

BOOOO-HOOO, you had ONE bad experience. Sorry that everyone does not want a mellow couch potato. You know if you look at the standard it states a GSD is a working dog. Stop trying to make it into something its not. Thats why so many dogs end up in shelters, because they have misconceptions of what a GSD truly is. I'll take my tasmanian devil any day of the week. Do you really want to get into the MANY flaws "your" brand of GSD has? Dont you think if "your" GSD's could be used with the same achievement rate for police work as a working line dog, they would be used more? There are experienced people giving you insight on K9's and you are mocking them and discouraging and ignoring their opinions and knowledge. Obviously they know a little more about police dogs than you....


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

> Quote:Watever. I have been here for thirty years and other than a few of the cities in the north (that have their own police departments), it is really a low crime area. There are some meth labs. In that time an officer in Ashtabula was killed and a dog, Cero was killed. I think your chances are better as a sherriff's deputy than say a CEI lineman or a farmer. Some times people get killed doing any job.
> 
> GSDloverforlyfe, I came here with an opinion about one of the dogs on the show. Big hairy one.
> 
> You can say what you want, but what 100 great dogs do can be wiped out completely by what 1 dog does. I do NOT want to see the program scrapped, which could very well happen with out of control dogs. I listed some examples of out of control dogs. They exist. And if you love the police so much that you are blind, you are doing them no favors.


Well I guess police k9 work has been around longer than you then. Not to mention the department featured in the show....they have you beat by a long shot and I'm guessing so does their experience with working dogs. So maybe, just maybe, they might actually know what they're doing. Maybe they have some experience and expertise that actually tops yours. And maybe, since their program hasn't been scrapped, we should change that to a probably....they probably know what they are doing.

So the department featured has dogs on their program that bark and try to intimidate dangerous suspects on the street. And you've decided that one of those dogs is the exact same as the dog that lunged at you because that one dog on the show was barking and intimidating a suspect on the street? No, I don't see where your argument is backed up. 

I understand that you are very frustrated about your experience with the dog rushing you and your dog. But unless I'm mistaken, you have no personal experience with any of the dogs on this show. The dogs on this show are not the dogs that rushed you. Neither are the schutzhund dogs out there, or the working line high drive police dogs that protect people every hour of every day. It was one dog that came at you and that dog should be dealt with. But to go after all police k9's under the guise that you're really helping the k9 field by preventing them from being shut down is kind of insulting.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

> Quote: Watever. I have been here for thirty years and other than a few of the cities in the north (that have their own police departments), it is really a low crime area. There are some meth labs. In that time an officer in Ashtabula was killed and a dog, Cero was killed. I think your chances are better as a sherriff's deputy than say a CEI lineman or a farmer. Some times people get killed doing any job.



As a Police Officer, I don't expect you to like me, or to even like what I do...and apparently you don't like the kind of police dogs that work with me either. But I have chosen to work a job where I have to put on body armor every day I go to work to reduce the chance that I will be killed. Maybe the crime rate in your area isn't through the roof. But that doesn't mean that the Officers who work there don't deserve respect for what they're doing. Just because they do their job safely and haven't had many Officers killed in the line of duty lately does not mean that there is no danger involved. They're still the ones going towards the shooting when everyone else is running away. I think the suggestion that another person gave for you to go on a ridealong with a deputy is a great idea. I think you'd learn a lot.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Selzer, 

I don't think any of us would be so offended if you didn't come out with guns blazing about your immense dislike of high drive, working line dogs. You even went as far as associating COLORS of dogs with their personalities. Apparently Sables are the devil and Black and reds are the best candidates for police dogs... or as GSDs in general.

I'm not even going to go through this whole thread and quote all of your insinuations and down right false statements. But I will say that you have ignored a lot of the facts and information that not only myself and others have provided you with about this matter, and GSDluver4lyfe REALLY has a point in the idea that you don't want to go into a "our GSD vs. your GSD" discussion.

I have been willing to take the time to provide information and knowledge to all the comments and concerns you have had, but have never had anything more than an opinion to back up your statements. That is very narrow-minded.

I really don't like repeating myself, but I believe we've already touched on the subject of "rescued and donated dogs being war dogs".


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9
> I think the suggestion that another person gave for you to go on a ridealong with a deputy is a great idea. I think you'd learn a lot.


In fact! I'd be more than happy to give you the name of the head of your county sheriff's K9 unit, that seems to be who you need to be directing your issues to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They were used as war dogs in WWII. They were not extreme dogs. They were dogs, that they found available and used. 

My friend has a sable. It happens to be an American Showline dog. Skinny little thing, and the farthest thing from a hyper extreme drive dog. I do not dislike sables or working dogs, but my dogs are black and red or black and tan because that is what I prefer. Is there something wrong with that?

The dog that turned me on to GSDs was a red sable.

The dog that charged at me was a dark sable. Big deal. 

You will find more black and red/black and tan dogs in the showlines because they often fair better in the ring and people breed specifically for them. 

I know black and tans that are police dogs. The dog that got killed here was a black and tan. I will go further, he looked like a showline dog. My friend has several dogs out of German showline imports that are working for police departments. 

Another friend who currently has one of my pups had bred her bitch to one of our police dogs and has two sable bitches out of that litter. Other than being huge 90 to 100 pound females, they are really nice bitches. 

So I am not completely removed from working lines, sables, police dogs, etc. 

I am against breeding for extremes, whether the venue is working or show. I think what we need in the breed is balance not extremes. 

While I have been here in this county for thirty years, I have been here on this earth for considerably longer. I happen to remember when we got our first dog. I also remember when the Cleveland Police Department had more horses and no dogs. Had a ride along on one of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I believe we had a disagreement and I do not really want to go into that now. I went over his head and got permission to use the area for training. I doubt he would want me to ride along with his guys and their dogs.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Selzer, I think you are confusing a high drive "extreme" dog with an unstable dog. You can have an "extreme" dog with a stable temperament.....


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

The police dogs shown on k9 cops and the ones I work with are not necessarily extreme. They are high drive dogs. There is a difference. If you believe that a GSD is "extreme" just because it is a police dog that has been TRAINED to bark at DANGEROUS SUSPECTS on the street, your version of extreme is very very different from mine and just about everyone else who has posted here. These dogs have been trained to be what you are seeing on the show. Yes, they have high drives, but the behavior you are seeing is from training. You may not know this, but police dogs are trained to bark on command and to be very forceful about it, so that suspects will give up and not fight with cops or run and have to be bit. More lawsuits tend to come from police dog bites rather than police dogs that bark at suspects and convince them to give up.

I would venture a guess that some of your "showline" import GSD's that are working as police dogs have been trained in the same way and actually do bark at suspects. In fact, if they have been trained correctly, they should be able to bark at and intimidate suspects. 

So if one of your "showline" dogs was trained to bark at suspects and got excited while riding around in a patrol car waiting to chase after suspects, I guess that makes your showline dogs extreme and nutty too under your arguments. I think you should investigate those dogs and what they have been trained to do before you point fingers at the other police dogs and their handlers. Otherwise, I'm taking it that you just don't like police dogs and police dog training in general.


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