# donovan pincher, what do u think?



## lcht2

last night i had the opportunity to watch a donovan pincher work. i would have to say that this new breed is insane. also that if this breed gets into the hands of an irresposible owner the world could come down on this breed. the handler was telling me that this is nota first time handler breed as they WILL come up the leash on its owner/handler. 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

altho this dog may be takeing a lot of jobs away from the dutchies, mals and GSD's. 

so what do u guys think? the new super working dog??

(check out youtube and watch some of these dogs work)


----------



## GunnerJones

We talked about them over at Leerburg and we can't figure out his breeding goals and can't see any uniformity in structure in any of the dogs, they all look like non discript mutts and I can imagine the temperments/drives/nerves would be the same


----------



## Fransheska

the one on the link looks scary! 
no matter how "super" the working dog, i would much rather have an OK working dog with a great temperment than one that is likely to 'come up the leash on its owner/handler. '

i doubt these dogs will replace GSDs ect.. i looked them up and alot of them dont even look like the same breed of dog. looks like alot of high drive mutts.


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Fransheskathe one on the link looks scary!
> no matter how "super" the working dog, i would much rather have an OK working dog with a great temperment than one that is likely to 'come up the leash on its owner/handler. '
> 
> i doubt these dogs will replace GSDs ect.. i looked them up and alot of them dont even look like the same breed of dog. looks like alot of high drive mutts.


exactly what i thought, when i look at the dog and i hear about there temperment i just see a terminator dog or a genetic freak of a dog.


----------



## Fodder

and here i thought i was walking in on the worse typo ever


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarWe talked about them over at Leerburg and we can't figure out his breeding goals and can't see any uniformity in structure in any of the dogs, they all look like non discript mutts and I can imagine the temperments/drives/nerves would be the same


could u post the link to the thread on that site??


----------



## DFrost

I've seen a couple of them. i even evaluated a couple for use in police work. To be honest I wasn't impressed. I certainly don't see them ever surpassing the GSD and/or the Mal. Most police trainers I've spoken with pretty much feel the same way.

DFrost


----------



## Chicagocanine

I wouldn't call it a breed really. They are too different in appearance and have not been bred in enough generations to consider them a breed in my opinion. Personally I consider them similar to a bandog.


----------



## lcht2

this is from last nights session

this DP is a 14 week old female

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=RY9n3FH8khY


----------



## GunnerJones

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarWe talked about them over at Leerburg and we can't figure out his breeding goals and can't see any uniformity in structure in any of the dogs, they all look like non discript mutts and I can imagine the temperments/drives/nerves would be the same
> 
> 
> 
> could u post the link to the thread on that site??
Click to expand...

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4139512/site_id/1


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarWe talked about them over at Leerburg and we can't figure out his breeding goals and can't see any uniformity in structure in any of the dogs, they all look like non discript mutts and I can imagine the temperments/drives/nerves would be the same
> 
> 
> 
> could u post the link to the thread on that site??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4139512/site_id/1
Click to expand...

ahh yes i saw that thread, i was thinking that u may have been talking about another one. 

the more i read about this "new" breed im still a bit weary about them. pit bulls get enough of a bad rap and thats where i see this breed going. im not dissing there ability to work because i think that its there, its just that these dogs are dog agressive and handler aggressive. i think that if they are going to breed a new "super" breed they need to breed out some of those bad qualities. i mean yes some gsd's, mals, and dutchies may be handler/dog aggressive but its not put into them as much as to breed a dog that was bred to fight other dogs. it just seems like science experiment gone wrong to me...just my opinion


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI wouldn't call it a breed really. They are too different in appearance and have not been bred in enough generations to consider them a breed in my opinion. Personally I consider them similar to a bandog.


and we still call american bloodline GSD's "german"


----------



## Slamdunc

I watched that video of the puppy and was not impressed with the decoy or the bitework. The pup looked ok, but it was worked too much in defense. No wonder these dogs become hard to handle when worked this way at 14 weeks. The GSD, mali and Dutch Shepherd people have nothing to worry about from this breed.


----------



## DianaM

Is dragging the pup around like that and hoisting it up by its harness normal?







It really looked like too much too soon.


----------



## wolfstraum

A 14 week old pup??? I feel sorry for it.....they are really pushing it. Dragging a pup around repeatedly like that is not normal training - the pup may not even know how to walk on a lead FCOL - lifting a pup up to out it is not abnormal at all - but even that is a bit extreme here...

When a breed is truly "developed" historically, there has been a "blueprint" of sorts for both appearance and character....I don't see any consistancy in anything done by Donovan. In fact, I knew someone years ago who was working with him, and I think I read that thread on Leerburg years ago, and the whole Donovan scene is pretty extreme, and on the fringe of respectable to put it politely.

Lee


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumA 14 week old pup??? I feel sorry for it.....they are really pushing it. Dragging a pup around repeatedly like that is not normal training


I agree.







IMO very poor training and handling for such a young pup.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DianaMIs dragging the pup around like that and hoisting it up by its harness normal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really looked like too much too soon.


I hope not! The dragging looked like the pup is not even used to that harness, she probably needs to go on some short walks with lots of treats so she is comfortable in the harness. The hanging by the harness? I don't know WHAT is up with that! If someone tried that with my pup or even suggested it they'd probably get slapped.


----------



## windwalker718

?? Will admit to being new to schutzhunding... but is it normal to work a dog on protection with a pinch collar?? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiIBTzd6Xw&feature=related

just seems that you're telling them to pull and tug, and then punishing them @ the same time...

Agree with general opinion that it's another disaster in the making. Too many breeds being bred ONLY for the aggression/prey drives and not for the social skills to be good partners and family friends.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18?? Will admit to being new to schutzhunding... but is it normal to work a dog on protection with a pinch collar??
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiIBTzd6Xw&feature=related
> 
> just seems that you're telling them to pull and tug, and then punishing them @ the same time...


The answer to that is yes.

Minor irritation such as would be experienced pulling into the pinch collar, or from light nagging pops with the pinch collar, will stimulate drive in most strong dogs suitable for the work making for better barking, more power, etc.... The dog certainly doesn't view this as a correction, and in fact in that high state of drive the dog barely feels it on a conscious level. This building drive through frustration and annoyance is a very common technique in protection training, though this is most often done with the pinch collar on the dead ring, not the live ring.

In this video, that is an adult dog. So working on the pinch is appropriate. It is a very useful tool. Used at a light level it can build drive and intensity as I said. Then of course it is also available to issue a correction when needed.


----------



## ladylaw203

Agree with general opinion that it's another disaster in the making. Too many breeds being bred ONLY for the aggression/prey drives and not for the social skills to be good partners and family friends. 
********************************************

I have to take issue with this We have plenty pets in the world without breeding for it. A well bred GSD or any other breed will be stable in all situations and still be capable of working. My police service dogs are quite stable and are family. Always have been. We breed dogs with the proper drives and temperament to work for a reason. We need them. Does not make them unsuitable for other things.


----------



## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203Agree with general opinion that it's another disaster in the making. Too many breeds being bred ONLY for the aggression/prey drives and not for the social skills to be good partners and family friends.
> ********************************************
> 
> I have to take issue with this We have plenty pets in the world without breeding for it. A well bred GSD or any other breed will be stable in all situations and still be capable of working. My police service dogs are quite stable and are family. Always have been. We breed dogs with the proper drives and temperament to work for a reason. We need them. Does not make them unsuitable for other things.


The problem is, most people, unless they are ardently involved in sport, protection or police service dogs, rarely get to see dogs with true, genuine nerve. A dog of that type is genuinely suitable for MOST any other things. 

DFrost


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote:The problem is, most people, unless they are ardently involved in sport, protection or police service dogs, rarely get to see dogs with true, genuine nerve. A dog of that type is genuinely suitable for MOST any other things.



good point.


----------



## lcht2

*donovan pincher, what do u think?(updated)*

here is the same dog "tweek" at 5 1/2 months old.

http://www.members7.boardhost.com/donovank9/msg/1235051270.html

these dogs are overloaded with prey drive. although im not impressed, i've seen better GSD's, mals, and dutchies..and will stick with those breeds as working prospects.

here's another vid that was done with dom and his breeding/training aspects

http://www.members7.boardhost.com/donovank9/msg/1235035013.html

these dogs are all the same "blood" and each one looks way different. some look like pitt-bulls, some look like mal mixes, some look like GSD mixes. but i guess thats what you get when you mix every working breed out there.

if you want to know more you can check out there forum at donovank9.com


----------

