# Discoid Lupus Erythematosus..please..anyone help!



## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Does anyone have a dog here who has Discoid Lupus Erythematosus (DLE)??? My vet just told me today Sammy has this but I am just so confused. I think I am going to get a second opinion on Monday but for now I have to wait. All the research I have done says my dog would need a biopsy to confirm this diagnosis, but she took one look at him and told me this is what he had. She gave me steroids to give to him, but all the research I've done said steroids should be the last option, and Sammy is only showing the begining signs. Anyone who could help...I'd appreciate it! I just hope someone else has experience with this disease that I can talk to!


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Your vet might be right, as German Shepherds are among the breeds which can be susceptible to this disease - but I would insist on a biopsy anyway, to confirm the diagnosis, because pemphigus can also change the appearance of the tissue on the nose. You are right in assuming that steroids are an option to be approached with caution, lots of potentially negative side effects especially if taken long term, and are suppressive rather than curative. They are what doctors will invariably prescribe however. If you have access to an accredited homeopathic veterinarian once the diagnosis is confirmed, I would start there, remedies can be very helpful especially in the early stages. You should also consider diet and supplements as a necessary adjunct to any treatment, whether you end up with steroids or not - here is an article you might find helpful www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/the-immune-system/

It talks about a number of immune triggered diseases, and systemic lupus rather than the discoid variety - but scroll down for suggestions for diet and vitamins/minerals which will be appropriate for your situation also. Fresh foods (whether raw or cooked) are essential when treating chronic disease, especially auto immune problems which are not going to be cured, but rather managed. This website also has recipes for home prepared meals, it is where I got all my info when I switched my dogs from kibble to raw years ago. Good luck - keep us posted on developments!!!! (and don't over expose your dog's face to the sun...)
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Did she give oral steroid or topical?

There are other things that could be, including fungal and allergies, maybe bacterial. 

I would start with some baseline bloodwork, to see if all the bloodcounts are normal, though I would expect everything to be normal if this were confined to the nose.


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

I did do a lot of research before my vet appointment and I came across Discoid Lupus Erythematosus a lot. I do understand the vet could be right, but what worried me is she prescribed me steroids right away, didn't even mention a biopsy and all my research said a biopsy was needed to confirm this diagnosis. To be honest, she seemed like she wanted me out of her office, every question I asked she rubbed off with a quick answer telling me not to worry. I want to go to another vet for a second opinion, but I live in Germany and it's so hard to find an english speaking pet. I do go to a great German vet a lot, but the language barrier can be a problem. I think I have no choice to be honest at this point, steroids is not an option for me right now when I know there might be something else we could try!

The steroid she prescribed me is Prednisone. She also prescribed me an antihistamine (spelling?) called Hydroxyzine Pamoate for his allergies...which I'm sure he does have allergies because he's been rubbing his face on the carpet and furniture lately and chewing on his feet. But I still feel like maybe I can help him without pills? This dog is seriously my life, he is like my child and I do not want to give him medicine that can do damage in the future. I know I may sound a little crazy I am just more of a hollistic type person but I don't have the knowledge or resources to go that route. I wish this wasn't happening to him


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oral pred is NOT the place that I would start first.

A nose like that could be fungal, allergies, bacterial, or autoimmune. There's a discussion going on here: Discoid Lupus (Vinnie...) - GermanShepherdHome.net that's slightly related, though it hasn't been updated lately. If you search this site, there was also someone here that was using Bag Balm externally.

Do you have a picture?

What are you feeding?

An easy fix might be if he's using a plastic food bowl?


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

I am going to take new pics now and upload them, I uploaded some last night when I thought he only had allergies, it's in this part of the forum as well.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out. I am feeding him Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul Adult and yes he is eating out of a plastic bowl, I will change that immediately. I do wash it out but not daily and I think switching is just easier.


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Here are the pics


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Does it look like this disease is bad enough to where I should try steroids or should I wait until Monday for a second opinion?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

CarLooSHoo said:


> I am going to take new pics now and upload them, I uploaded some last night when I thought he only had allergies, it's in this part of the forum as well.
> 
> Thanks for the link, I will check it out. I am feeding him Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul Adult and yes he is eating out of a plastic bowl, I will change that immediately. I do wash it out but not daily and I think switching is just easier.


I thought I saw pics earlier, and then I didn't see them, so I thought I was going nuts!!

The plastic bowl - sometimes it's a reaction to the actual plastic. It sure would be great if that were it - an easy fix!

If the food were crappy, that might contribute, but that's a decent food. If he has overall allergies, you might have to look closer at the food (chicken is a common allergen it seems), but if the food is working, no reason to change at this point.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

CarLooSHoo said:


> Does it look like this disease is bad enough to where I should try steroids or should I wait until Monday for a second opinion?


I would not give oral steroids for this, except as an absolute last resort. In fact, I would rather try oral antibiotics before the steroids.

My new favorite thing is Bag Balm. It's helped my boy's nose a lot. I would try that first. If that doesn't work, I would ask the vet for something like this: ANIMAX CREAM AND OINTMENT 

That's not the brand that I've used, but there are different brands with the same 4 ingredients. That's the ONLY thing, other than the bag balm, that has helped my boy's nose. It's not exactly like yours, but you don't know if that's autoimmune or what.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

CarLooSHoo said:


> I did do a lot of research before my vet appointment and I came across Discoid Lupus Erythematosus a lot. I do understand the vet could be right, but what worried me is she prescribed me steroids right away, didn't even mention a biopsy and all my research said a biopsy was needed to confirm this diagnosis. To be honest, she seemed like she wanted me out of her office, every question I asked she rubbed off with a quick answer telling me not to worry. I want to go to another vet for a second opinion, but I live in Germany and it's so hard to find an english speaking pet. I do go to a great German vet a lot, but the language barrier can be a problem. I think I have no choice to be honest at this point, steroids is not an option for me right now when I know there might be something else we could try!
> 
> The steroid she prescribed me is Prednisone. She also prescribed me an antihistamine (spelling?) called Hydroxyzine Pamoate for his allergies...which I'm sure he does have allergies because he's been rubbing his face on the carpet and furniture lately and chewing on his feet. But I still feel like maybe I can help him without pills? This dog is seriously my life, he is like my child and I do not want to give him medicine that can do damage in the future. I know I may sound a little crazy I am just more of a hollistic type person but I don't have the knowledge or resources to go that route. I wish this wasn't happening to him


No you aren't crazy - you are wanting to do the right thing for your dog. Is there anyone who could go to the German speaking vet with you and who could translate so that there is no misunderstanding? If he/she is the better choice that's where I would be headed. To be honest, your photos do look like the pics I have seen of Discoid Lupus - but they also look like my dogs' nose a few years back, and she has pemphigus vulgaris, which spread to other areas of her body. (DL can also spread to the ears, mouth, and sometimes the genital area, though it is most often seen on the nose.) The only way to know for sure what you are dealing with is to do the biopsy - and in the meantime, take away the plastic bowl etc per LisaT and try the Bag Balm (if you can find it, you may have to send away for it.) 

I still think you should be considering a diet change - if your dog is also dealing with allergies, fresh food is far better than the best kibble, as it is digested more quickly (a couple of hours as opposed to all day) thus putting a much lower burden on an animal already trying to cope with health problems. (Plus once people get rid of the kibble they invariably see a huge improvement in their dogs condition.) I never went the steroid route for Anja, who today has a chronic disease which is well under control using an holistic approach - raw diet, some supplements, homeopathic remedies occasionally if she has a flare up, and limited sun exposure. 

All this may be a moot point if your dog is simply having an allergic reaction to something, or it is fungal related as has been suggested. I can only repeat - do a biopsy. That's what I did, it's the ONLY way to know exactly what you are dealing with. 
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Anja1Blue said:


> No you aren't crazy - you are wanting to do the right thing for your dog. Is there anyone who could go to the German speaking vet with you and who could translate so that there is no misunderstanding? If he/she is the better choice that's where I would be headed. To be honest, your photos do look like the pics I have seen of Discoid Lupus - but they also look like my dogs' nose a few years back, and she has pemphigus vulgaris, which spread to other areas of her body. (DL can also spread to the ears, mouth, and sometimes the genital area, though it is most often seen on the nose.) The only way to know for sure what you are dealing with is to do the biopsy - and in the meantime, take away the plastic bowl etc per LisaT and try the Bag Balm (if you can find it, you may have to send away for it.)
> 
> I still think you should be considering a diet change - if your dog is also dealing with allergies, fresh food is far better than the best kibble, as it is digested more quickly (a couple of hours as opposed to all day) thus putting a much lower burden on an animal already trying to cope with health problems. (Plus once people get rid of the kibble they invariably see a huge improvement in their dogs condition.) I never went the steroid route for Anja, who today has a chronic disease which is well under control using an holistic approach - raw diet, some supplements, homeopathic remedies occasionally if she has a flare up, and limited sun exposure.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the long reply. I did post a thread about possibly switching to a raw diet for both my dogs. This auto immune thing scared me and I know fresh food is better for my dogs. I'm just so overwhelmed with all the information I have been reading, it's hard to know where to start. My biggest fear is I wont be giving my dogs all the nutrients they need. If I mess up somehow, it can hurt them in the future. I'm doing as much research as I can for now.

I wanted to update as well. I ended up calling the German vet off post and asked how much they charge for their emergency visits on sundays. The receptionist said they wont charge me extra because I explained to him my situation...that I really needed a second opinion. Me and my husband went in with Sammy and the vet took one look at Sammy and said yes this could be auto immune, but also that I am 100% right with my instinct not to give him steroids just yet. He said it could be necessary in the future if it is auto immune, but for now we don't even know. He said it was wrong for the other vet to diagnos my dog without doing the proper tests. Since it was a saturday, he can't do any tests because they would be sitting in the office until they could send it out on Monday. So he just told me to come back on Monday and to not give Sammy any meds. He said yes it might get a little worse, but also it is not life threatening so the best thing for him is to wait it out until Monday so we can do the proper tests and get the right results. I feel 100x better that I went and I am a little more relaxed. Last night I was so anxious and worried that I was probably posting like crazy and I thank all of you who took the time to respond to my posts. I will update more on Monday.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

With all the information out there it is easy to get carried away! And start worrying yourself to death about what may or may not be going on (I know - I've been there, done that.)

I'll look for your update next week.
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Good luck! Hoping it's just a food/plastic bowl allergy


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

My mother had a Shetland Sheepdog with Lupus when I was growing up. I don't want to upset you, so I won't go into it. Once you know for sure that is what you are dealing with, I would be willing to talk to you about what happened. For now though, there is no reason to fill your head with negative thoughts until you've had the tests done and know for sure.


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

BR870 said:


> My mother had a Shetland Sheepdog with Lupus when I was growing up. I don't want to upset you, so I won't go into it. Once you know for sure that is what you are dealing with, I would be willing to talk to you about what happened. For now though, there is no reason to fill your head with negative thoughts until you've had the tests done and know for sure.


Was it DLE or SLE? I know there are 2 different ones but either way, I will let you know if it is next week when the tests are done. Thank you everyone.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm glad that you will be gwtting the testing done. I agree with everything that Susan said! I too will be watching for updates.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Old Bitch was dx'd with discoid lupus at just a few months old, via biopsy. It has been almost a non issue for her entire life as we control with meds and treat flares. Beast get weird thins on his nose if he chews plastic (have to really read the toy content). Those pics you posted do not look like Old Bitch (in fact though not exact they more resemble Beast). When OB was dx'd she did go on a short course of pred- to get her flare under control. It was done along with other meds (niacinamide and tetracycline, 500 mg each, three times a day). We would taper her meds down (sometimes completely off) and up according to her manifestations. If your dog has Discoid lupus I am sure you too will come to see the patterns and be adept at medicating appropriately. The meds were inexpensive and easy to administer. 

I hope your further testing shows something easily treatable, but if it IS discoid lupus it really is manageable.


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

dogsnkiddos said:


> Old Bitch was dx'd with discoid lupus at just a few months old, via biopsy. It has been almost a non issue for her entire life as we control with meds and treat flares. Beast get weird thins on his nose if he chews plastic (have to really read the toy content). Those pics you posted do not look like Old Bitch (in fact though not exact they more resemble Beast). When OB was dx'd she did go on a short course of pred- to get her flare under control. It was done along with other meds (niacinamide and tetracycline, 500 mg each, three times a day). We would taper her meds down (sometimes completely off) and up according to her manifestations. If your dog has Discoid lupus I am sure you too will come to see the patterns and be adept at medicating appropriately. The meds were inexpensive and easy to administer.
> 
> I hope your further testing shows something easily treatable, but if it IS discoid lupus it really is manageable.


Thank you for sharing your personal experience!


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

So today me and Sammy went back to the German vet. She took a closer look at Sammy, asked more questions and decided she's going to start with blood work first. She took Sammy's blood and said she is going to check his organs and something to do with allergies too. It makes me feel better she is actually doing tests, unlike the other vet I went to. She said depending on his blood work, then we will decide if he needs the biopsy. We will find out tomorrow afternoon. Just thought I would update you all! I'll write more tomorrow.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Sounds good! I hope you find out it is something more benign. 
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Anja1Blue said:


> Sounds good! I hope you find out it is something more benign.
> ______________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> ...


Yes exactly, she said it could be a fungus (I told her about the plastic food bowls and how I switched and she said that was very good advice I took) and she also said it could be allergies, but I guess we will find out a lot more tomorrow!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Bloodwork is always a good place to start - I hope it offers a clue!


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry I didn't update sooner like I wanted. It's been a busy week/weekend. So the vet called me back sometime last week and told me Sammy's blood work was negative for everything she tested, including DLE. She did say the only was we will 100% know if he has DLE is a biopsy, but since the blood work is fairly reliable, she thinks we should start with a round of antibiotics before jumping into the biopsy and see how his face/nose react. Especially because she told me she honestly thinks he must have gotten into something and it was a bad reaction on his face. 

Well I am happy to update that on the third day of his antibiotics treatment, his face is clearing up so well. He still has some discoloration on his nostrils, but it isn't as pink as before. It's actually looking more white, which I'm assuming is now just some scarring. I do have to go back after the antibiotic treatment to see what the vet thinks, but let's hope this one round of antibiotics will do the trick and he doesn't have an autoimmune disease! So far so good, I just hope it keeps going up from here!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

That's great news!

What antibiotic are you using?


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

LisaT said:


> That's great news!
> 
> What antibiotic are you using?


I'm so sorry, he actually finished the antibiotic yesterday (It was a 5 day treatment, 2 pills a day) and I threw out the bottle. But the great news is I went back to the vet today and she took a very close look inside and outside his nose with this really awesome magnifying tool and he no longer has an infection inside his nose (from all the scratching, poor boy). The antibiotic worked and now all I need to do is apply a cream onto his nostril area to help the scabbing that happened when he was itching. I'm so thankful I went with my gut instinct and did not give him those steroids!


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

:happyboogie:


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Great news!! I am glad you updated


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## teriod (Jun 12, 2011)

*Wow*

Are you serious?? Dogs can get lupus, I have never heard or even considered a canine having lupus

I have sle lupus pretty bad and would hate to have one of my pups to even go through what I have

does your dog handle pretty well???


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## CarLooSHoo (Feb 26, 2009)

teriod said:


> Are you serious?? Dogs can get lupus, I have never heard or even considered a canine having lupus
> 
> I have sle lupus pretty bad and would hate to have one of my pups to even go through what I have
> 
> does your dog handle pretty well???


Yes dogs can also get SLE! I had no idea until this symptoms were happening to my dog. Thankfully we found out he does not have lupus!


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