# Cesar Millan



## Hachi

what do you guys think about Cesar Millan training methods


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## Cassidy's Mom

Previous threads: German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results Cesar Milan

German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results Dog Whisperer


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## Dr89

I know Cesar has been discussed a lot, but anyone have any opinions on the particular case posted in this thread? Was that a permanent fix? Seemed too easy


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## Gretchen

For this video I thought Cesar was right on, not letting the dog be the lead at the kennel door and on his walks (something we should practice more). I often wonder if there are some training methods that Cesar uses that are edited out. He always seems to exercise the dogs and tire them out, I know in my own neighborhood, some dogs are not walked as much as they should be. The owners of this shepherd are the ones that really need the training. I hope the dog behaves once Cesar is gone.

I've only watched a couple other shows of Cesar, and in those videos I felt he his methods were cruel and made the dogs fearful. I question him bringing his own dog to the owner's home, it seems dangerous, our previous dog would not tolerate that at all, but maybe he does have that connection with dogs. That said, I've seen our own trainer work magic with dogs. With the owner the dog is out of control, with our trainer he does not even need to use the leash, the dogs respond well and they seem calm, then back into the hands of the owner again - and back to their bad behavior.


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## Dr89

I wondered the same thing about him exercising the dog, it's not impossible that by the end of that video the dog was literally just wiped out...who knows how long he roller bladed with him before shooting that walk with the owner etc...

I usually think he does pretty well and obviously in this video the dog WAS acting better, but it just seemed to quick to have really made a permanent impact? 

Guess it would be up to the owners at this point, regardless.


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## ken k

Caesar is spot on with his "it's the owners" not the dog, in this video the owners dropped the ball with there GSD, and if they listen to what he has to say, the dog will be fine, what makes Caeser so successful is he has no fear what so ever, and the dog knows this,


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## CalmLeader

It seems easy because in this case it is. Dogs are simple; we are the ones who make it complicated (for them and us). I am a dog trainer myself and own a GSD (which I love dearly). I have an incredible connection with my dog, which is a shelter rescue. He came from a dog aggressive cage and now passed his CGC exam 2 weeks ago. I did precisely what Cesar Millan advocates (with my own dogs and clients). Exercise - Discipline (I like to call it structure and rules) and only then affection (which includes food). I wouldn't call what Cesar does so much a method but an approach to fulfill you dog's needs and it has worked wonders for mine and all my clients. Dogs are migratory animals. Every fiber in their body is designed for movement and GSDs usually have lots of energy as they were bred for that. If you provide a constructive outlet for that energy your dog realizes that you are fulfilling his needs and will reward you for it with the loyalty a pack leader gets from his pack - I know that sounds a bit esoteric and strange but is absolutely true as I have witnessed that first hand with my own GSD and Pit bull. My GSD is much more to me than a just a dog, he is a companion and we have a very strong bond based on mutual respect - I earned that by fulfilling his needs. Once you do that consistently (7 days a week), he will start responding better to rules as well, as he can focus better. An exercised dog is a calm dog, which can focus on learning. I personally am not a runner so I rollerblade with my dog every day for 30 minutes in the morning and walk him for another 30 minutes in the evening. He is a medium level energy GSD and that is a perfect exercise regiment for him. I also full agree with the meaning of the walk, where the dog follows or is next to you. This is what puts you in charge in your dogs mind - he is just wired that way. The best book by Cesar on this whole concept was 2nd one - Be the Pack Leader. Cesar gets often mischaracterized and his approach shown in little clips out of context – I know that some is harder to watch for sensitive people but all these things usually saved the respective dogs life after traditional trainers gave up or failed; I prefer dogs not being killed and Cesar often only appears after all else has failed and usually succeeds.


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## Blazings

If my dog was out of control for whatever reason, Cesar would be best person to help me I can think of


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## Lauri & The Gang

"Frustration ... from a male point of view" - Bunk!

Intact males don't get "frustrated".


"It's not wrong for a dog to pee in somebody's back yard - it's actually dominance"

Sometimes a dog just has to PEE!! This is what frustrates me about this guy - he believes that *everything *a dog does is tied to dominance in some way or another.

I think he should change his name to the Dog OWNER Whisperer because the majority of the time it's the OWNER that he has to fix and not the dog.

In the above video he was right on about the owners being the problem. They had a dog that NEEDED leadership and they didn't provide it. Sending the dog away for a year didn't help matters any for them. Being afraid of the dog was also making matters worse.

Was it a quick fix? For the dog, yes. Will it STAY fixed? That is up to the owners. IF *THEY *keep up their end of the bargain the dog will keep up his.


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## Jack's Dad

Lauri & The Gang said:


> "Frustration ... from a male point of view" - Bunk!
> 
> *Obviously a womans perspective.*
> 
> Intact males don't get "frustrated".


Yes they do. 


"


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## Heathear

Simple Biology: Intact males that are not allowed to breed do indeed get frustrated. It is a biological imperative- just as a dog that does not get the proper exercise gets "frustrated". Testosterone drives the need to mate- if that need is not met the dog is simply not a fulfilled animal. And lacking an opposible thumb, there's not much a dog can do to remedy the situation....



Lauri & The Gang said:


> "Frustration ... from a male point of view" - Bunk!
> 
> Intact males don't get "frustrated".
> 
> 
> "It's not wrong for a dog to pee in somebody's back yard - it's actually dominance"
> 
> Sometimes a dog just has to PEE!! This is what frustrates me about this guy - he believes that *everything *a dog does is tied to dominance in some way or another.
> 
> I think he should change his name to the Dog OWNER Whisperer because the majority of the time it's the OWNER that he has to fix and not the dog.
> 
> In the above video he was right on about the owners being the problem. They had a dog that NEEDED leadership and they didn't provide it. Sending the dog away for a year didn't help matters any for them. Being afraid of the dog was also making matters worse.
> 
> Was it a quick fix? For the dog, yes. Will it STAY fixed? That is up to the owners. IF *THEY *keep up their end of the bargain the dog will keep up his.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Heathear said:


> Simple Biology: Intact males that are not allowed to breed do indeed get frustrated. It is a biological imperative- just as a dog that does not get the proper exercise gets "frustrated". Testosterone drives the need to mate- if that need is not met the dog is simply not a fulfilled animal.


Then why is my 3 yr old, intact male German Shepherd, Mauser, not frustrated?

Why was my 11 yr old intact German Shepherd, Riggs, never frustrated?

Mauser has NEVER bred a female and yet he lives with one intact one.

Riggs was used for breeding once and yet he never was frustrated.


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## Jack's Dad

I don't think Cesar was implying that the dogs only reason for it's problems were sexual frustration. It was pretty clear he believed it was the owners. I agree that it was the owners.

With regard to his re-hab of the dog, it won't last if the owners don't step up to the plate.


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## WendyDsMom

My daughter and I love the Caesar Milan Method... We even went to a week long seminar when he was out in Baltimore.

What we learned worked well with our Foster Pup Trigger - who came from a severely abusive household with three broken ribs, incredibly underweight, and afraid of absolutely everything - to include shadows. He was kept in a kennel in a garage and not taken out much.

That previous owner went to jail for abusing his wife, kids, and dog.

Calm assertive helped Trigger get over all fear and bloom into the hot **** he is now!


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## Hunther's Dad

Heathear said:


> Simple Biology: Intact males that are not allowed to breed do indeed get frustrated. It is a biological imperative- just as a dog that does not get the proper exercise gets "frustrated". Testosterone drives the need to mate- if that need is not met the dog is simply not a fulfilled animal. *And lacking an opposible thumb, there's not much a dog can do to remedy the situation*....


:rofl: Welcome to the board! :rofl:


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## RebelGSD

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer - USATODAY.com

There is some interesting information to be found by googling "Cesar millan lawsuit"


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## Germanshepherdlova

RebelGSD said:


> 'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan sued by TV producer - USATODAY.com
> 
> There is some interesting information to be found by googling "Cesar millan lawsuit"


This case was from 2006. I believe that once all the facts in the case came out it was discovered that Cesar had gave the labs owner permission to use his facility. That the lab was injured when his owner put him on the treadmill without knowing what he was doing if this is the same case that I heard about many years ago.

I think that Cesar has an amazing talent with dogs. And I also agree with his philosophy that it is usually the owner, not the dog who is causing the problem.

As far as the frustrated intact male, I think that is true. My GSD was neutered at 2 yo. He used to feel the need while out on a walk to splash his pee here and there marking everything. When he would smell a dog in heat-he would become obviously frustrated. Since he was neutered earlier this year-he takes one good pee while out on a walk and then is free to enjoy the walk without worrying about leaving his mark everywhere for interested females to find. He also no longer gets worked up if he passes a female in heat. He seems more peaceful now in general.


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## RebelGSD

Do you have any links showing how this was resolved?


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## Baron's Dad

Did anyone see the Cesar Millan South Park episode?? It's my favorite!


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## boiseno

Baron's Dad said:


> Did anyone see the Cesar Millan South Park episode?? It's my favorite!


That episode is one of their best!!! I laughed so hard. The episode is called "pssst" if anyone's interested. It's worth the watch.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Dog Whisperer Lawsuit: Cesar Millan Sued by Flody Suarez
This link gives you some quick facts in whats known about that case.


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## selzer

I have owned intact males who were around half a dozen intact females year round without breeding. They were not frustrated. Sorry that is just baloney. Neutering this dog will have no help at all. 

Dogs may not have opposable thumbs, but they can clean themselves regularly. They do no become aroused to the point of, well, anyhow, if the dog was so frustrated, he would probably be doing what he is capable of. But they do not. And even dogs who are have bitches in heat in the next kennel are NEVER aggressive. 

That aggressiveness is the owner's problem, fear whatever. I don't buy that bit at all.

But I will say that Cesar is not afraid of dogs, dogs that could do serious damage. And if his pitt and the GSD went at it, he would be in a world of trouble separating them. Personally, I think that is a bit reckless.


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## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> I have owned intact males who were around half a dozen intact females year round without breeding. They were not frustrated. Sorry that is just baloney. Neutering this dog will have no help at all.
> 
> Dogs may not have opposable thumbs, but they can clean themselves regularly. They do no become aroused to the point of, well, anyhow, if the dog was so frustrated, he would probably be doing what he is capable of. But they do not. And even dogs who are have bitches in heat in the next kennel are NEVER aggressive.
> 
> That aggressiveness is the owner's problem, fear whatever. I don't buy that bit at all.
> 
> But I will say that Cesar is not afraid of dogs, dogs that could do serious damage. And if his pitt and the GSD went at it, he would be in a world of trouble separating them. Personally, I think that is a bit reckless.


IDK-my GSD WAS frustrated and showed clear signs of it. My lab starts to cry and act desperate when he is near a bitch in heat. He makes a complete fool of himself. While out on walks he marks every where. Since my GSD was neutered this past April-he displays non of these behaviors and is much more peaceful and calm in the presence of females. I feel bad for my lab when he behaves this way-but I don't want to neuter him because of the complications that my GSD had after his neuter. 

Cesar isn't reckless, he just knows what he is doing-and has a great deal of confidence. He has helped many dogs, I am trying to get my GSD put on his list to help with the car chasing. My friend has had her dog on his list for 2 years now but there are so many people on the list that it is hard to even get on the list to begin with.


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## Draugr

Mine hasn't shown any degree of frustration even when in direct proximity to in-heat females. And I mean full-blown, ready mentally and physically to breed, in-heat females. Didn't really show much more interest than he normally does in another dog except to sniff where she peed a little longer than he normally would.

But his drive is also very low and I suspect sexual drive is also something tied into work drive and all the other drives a dog has. If one is very low the others are likely low as well. Don't know how true this is but it seems to be the case with mine.

I think most dogs probably deal with this just fine. Or we over-anthropomorphize and imagine they must be under a great deal more duress than they actually are (I think this happens A LOT). Some dogs probably get out of control and are indeed miserable when they are around in-heat females.

I used to be somewhat critical of Cesar Milan until I actually watched several of his shows. Turns out a bunch of tiny little clips smashed together can pretty easily give you the wrong impression of a person. I like what I see and what he does.


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## selzer

Germanshepherdlova said:


> IDK-my GSD WAS frustrated and showed clear signs of it. My lab starts to cry and act desperate when he is near a bitch in heat. He makes a complete fool of himself. While out on walks he marks every where. Since my GSD was neutered this past April-he displays non of these behaviors and is much more peaceful and calm in the presence of females. I feel bad for my lab when he behaves this way-but I don't want to neuter him because of the complications that my GSD had after his neuter.
> 
> Cesar isn't reckless, he just knows what he is doing-and has a great deal of confidence. He has helped many dogs, I am trying to get my GSD put on his list to help with the car chasing. My friend has had her dog on his list for 2 years now but there are so many people on the list that it is hard to even get on the list to begin with.


Well, it is his show. If Daddy and the dog aggressive, or fearful, or dominant GSD chewed into each other, it isn't very likely that they would televise it -- oops, that was pretty stupid, guess we won't do that again.


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## sheep

Cesar Millan is not the only one that talks about dominance, Victoria Stilwell, who is a positive trainer, also uses this concept, although not as much (it seems that CM is a bit too paranoid sometimes).

Personally, I don't find Cesar's training methods abusive even thought it might seem a bit rough sometimes. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone thought, since almost any kind of physical confrontation can be dangerous when not well used (even yelling a "NO!" to a dog can be dangerous for really inexperienced people).


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## Samba

This article says what I have been saying for years to people in classes who ask about Cesar....


The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up - Esquire


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## sheep

Samba said:


> This article says what I have been saying for years to people in classes who ask about Cesar....
> 
> 
> The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up - Esquire


This is just my opinion (like many others who has their own), but while I think that Cesar is a bit too obsessed with dominance and some of his methods are not safe enough to practice, I find his general philosophy good. He promotes the balance of exercise/discipline/affection, and mild corrections that aren't too physical (calm, firm, no hitting), which helped many people to understand dogs' needs better.

But about this article, I just wanted to give my opinions about certain points:
- pointing out how someone doesn't have enough credentials seems a bit low for an argument - just coz someone doesn't have credentials it doesn't make them not good, just like someone who has them doesn't necessarily make him/her good.
- "they can reward the behavior they want and either ignore, avoid, or distract them from unwanted behavior. It's reinforcement versus enforcement." - if pure positive methods for unwanted behaviors is just about this (set dog for success as much as we can, ignore, avoid or distract), then many people already knows that it does not always work. In fact, it was even mentioned further in this article - "I may teach some of the methods Cesar uses," says Ramirez, who also trains bomb-sniffing dogs and their handlers, "but only as a last resort."
- "On Millan's _Dog Whisperer, _he goes house to bad-dog house, jerking leashes, shaking scruffs of necks, and throwing the occasional kick--in a wolfman-to-wolfpack fashion" - Jerking leashes might be true, but I've never seen him shaking scruffs or kicking. His "kick" is not strong at all, it's just as he often says, a touch.

What I agree in this article thought, is the problem of putting too much emphasis on dominance, and that most problems are due to miscommunication.

But well, there's just something that annoys me sometimes - I'm yet to see a good critical article that is truly neutral and open minded, with real valid critical points. Discrediting someone for not having credentials while stating the credentials of its sources to make it sound more credible, and over dramatizing the situations through the subtle use of words (touch becomes kick, mild corrections without hitting or yelling becomes aggressive physical corrections, dog calming down becomes dog shutting down and so on) aren't really doing much.

To be fair, I'm kind of annoyed with extremists of both positive and aversive sides. Coz what I often see is them criticizing each other techniques in the wrong ways (positive guys dramatizing about aversives' ways/consequences, aversive guys saying that positive is just about bribing, which are both wrong), instead of seeing both sides' methods in a more realistic and neutral analytical way before even pointing fingers.

If everyone focus on how to figure out methods that are better at helping our dogs to live happier instead of pointing fingers to each other, many people could be less confused, and their dogs could be happier. And I bet that this is what everyone actually wants.

I'm sorry for writing so much as I don't intend to contribute to debating about CM's techniques on online communities (it usually leads to nowhere), but I just wanted to give my opinion about this.


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## lrodptl

I'd like to see an article where the author actually revisits at random, homes that have been singled out on the show. You know,do some research beyond the TV screen.


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## Ucdcrush

I agree with your analysis, Sheep. Especially the point that the articles that are written slamming Cesar always seem to be weakened by having at least one of the non-sequiturs that the Esquire article had and that Sheep pointed out.

The articles always seem to ignore the fact that Cesar has a pack of 30 (or more?) rehabilitated problem dog living together. And that he travels around with dogs that were once "problem" dogs, in order to help other dogs. And he has that RV with a pack of 5 or so dogs in it, he lets them run around off leash in a typically very distracting environment (like a suburban neighborhood), makes that clicky sound and they all come running back to him. His work with dogs is impressive to say the least, and he truly loves dogs. Why these people mischaracterize his methods and quibble over "credentials" is beyond me, I really don't get the source of their feelings. I say "feelings" because I do not believe the articles are based on objective facts, as evidenced by the gross exaggerations these authors engage in. Even the title of this Esquire article screams over-emotionality "Just shut up".

The anti-Cesar articles always lose me when they blow his approach out of proportion as Sheep pointed out. If someone had never seen the show, they would think that Cesar goes into a house with the intent purpose of physically roughing the dog up in order to gain dominance. Which is clearly not the case.


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## lrodptl

Ucdcrush said:


> I agree with your analysis, Sheep. Especially the point that the articles that are written slamming Cesar always seem to be weakened by having at least one of the non-sequiturs that the Esquire article had and that Sheep pointed out.
> 
> The articles always seem to ignore the fact that Cesar has a pack of 30 (or more?) rehabilitated problem dog living together. And that he travels around with dogs that were once "problem" dogs, in order to help other dogs. And he has that RV with a pack of 5 or so dogs in it, he lets them run around off leash in a typically very distracting environment (like a suburban neighborhood), makes that clicky sound and they all come running back to him. His work with dogs is impressive to say the least, and he truly loves dogs. Why these people mischaracterize his methods and quibble over "credentials" is beyond me, I really don't get the source of their feelings. I say "feelings" because I do not believe the articles are based on objective facts, as evidenced by the gross exaggerations these authors engage in. Even the title of this Esquire article screams over-emotionality "Just shut up".
> 
> The anti-Cesar articles always lose me when they blow his approach out of proportion as Sheep pointed out. If someone had never seen the show, they would think that Cesar goes into a house with the intent purpose of physically roughing the dog up in order to gain dominance. Which is clearly not the case.


How many of these geniuses do any client follow up research? If they're critiquing someone based on a TV show only then the criticisms have no credibility and should be ignored.


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## codmaster

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Then why is my 3 yr old, intact male German Shepherd, Mauser, not frustrated?
> 
> Why was my 11 yr old intact German Shepherd, Riggs, never frustrated?
> 
> Mauser has NEVER bred a female and yet he lives with one intact one.
> 
> Riggs was used for breeding once and yet he never was frustrated.


 
*Wonder how a human owner would would know if a male (or female) dog was "frustrated" or not? *

* And how that might influence their behavior (other than trying to mate when available)?*


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## longhairshepmom

Wow, that article about Cesar Milan sounds like someone with some sour grapes wrote it. Really don't like the tone and implications. Jealous much ??
I have watched just about every Cesar Milan episode and I have yet to see him be abusive or aggressive with any dog. If anything he blocks or matches their energy and re-directs it.
So the guy in the article says he will "sometimes" use Cesars methods, but only as a last resort. 
Well, gee, most times Cesar IS the last resort for those dogs, as they have been given up on by other trainers and face being put to sleep.
I have practiced his philosophy regarding dogs far longer then he has been around and it has never failed me. Throughout all the dogs I have had plus many fosters.
Many other trainers are simply no fan of Cesar, because he makes SENSE and can help people sufficiently and yes, fairly quickly (as long as they keep up what they've learned and been shown)
Of course other trainers don't like it. They rather get paid for 20 + sessions and would like for people to believe that is what it will take.


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## jetscarbie

I would let CM come to my house and train my dogs. 

I believe some people just have ways with animals.


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## studio1one

I would rather set myself on fire than let him anywhere near any of my dogs.

Watch this video, it is typical of him. The dog is doing nothing until at 19 seconds Cesar kicks the dog in the abdomen, behind the rib cage where it has little protection.

The dog then goes for him, because he kicked it, so he strangles it until it nearly passes out.

The guy should be locked up.

I wonder how he would react if I was stood next to him then kicked him in the stomach for no reason?


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## GSKnight

ok... I watched the video a couple times. His didn't "kick the dog in the stomach for no reason"... I saw it as, the dog was was focused on the other dog, instead of the handler, and he gave the dog a "tap" to redirect its attention. 

I have no problem with this.


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## studio1one

Well it certainly redirected its attention. Personally I have a massive problem with it. If a dog is not focused on what you want I don't see a kick to the stomach as any kind of acceptable way to redirect it. The heel into the abdomen / groin is one of his favourite tricks, along with asphyxiation. If I hired any trainer and they came and kicked and asphyxiated my dogs I would kick and asphyxiate them.


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## longhairshepmom

rather set yourself on fire, really ?

That was not a kick, it was a tap with the side of the foot. That dog has probably been given up on by all the "fluff" trainers and it has been recommended to put it to sleep. If you can read body language you can clearly see that dog was getting ready to attack the other dog. He started staring and stiffening up. If you don't interrupt RIGHT THEN you are to late !!
You don't think another trainer would have tried to keep from being torn to shreds ? Oh yeah, another trainer wouldn't have interrupted that aggression , because most wouldn't have even gone that far to keep themselves out of danger. With dogs like that, MANY trainers recommend euthanasia. Not many trainers will put themselves at harm, esp. with such a large and powerful dog which is obviously already very dangerous. I guess you would rather "let yourself ripped to shreds" then to control that dog with means that seem firm, but won't have lasting damage *unlike a bullet, or heartstick*
How do dogs control each other when they fight, yet not to the death, they grab the throat and hold the other dog until it submits and gives in. It takes the air, as well.
Numbers don't lie. Cesar has helped VERY MANY dogs that were on borrowed time. Dogs that were on their LAST CHANCE. Dogs that had been to other trainers and given up on by them. Of course those cases aren't easy or pretty anymore. I still have yet to see him even ONCE abuse a dog. If a tap against the side is abuse, then what the heck is jerking on a chokechain to re-direct a dog ? I'm 100% sure that causes more "pain" even though even that is just a quick "nip/pinch" to get the dog to refocus on its handler.
Also, how ironic how many people like to harp on Cesar, yet reccomend Leerburg over all others. Leerburg actually HANGS dogs that are over aggressive. Yes, hang, as in hang from a tree by a rope until the dog passes out. Repeatedely. I guess thats better ? It certainly is SAFER to do it this way for the handler, you won't be in harms way as Cesar was. 
I guess all those dogs he saved from death would rather have had Cesar, then be dead now. 
Through training/keeping dogs and horses I have learned a lot, not just about the animals, but also about people. Cesars love for the animals shines through clearly, and what if he has become rich and successful ? Good for him. Prefer that to people that sit on their tush depending on the government to spoonfeed them.


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## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> Well it certainly redirected its attention. Personally I have a massive problem with it. If a dog is not focused on what you want I don't see a kick to the stomach as any kind of acceptable way to redirect it. The heel into the abdomen / groin is one of his favourite tricks, along with asphyxiation. If I hired any trainer and they came and kicked and asphyxiated my dogs I would kick and asphyxiate them.


ok, so then...how would YOU have re-directed that intense focus/getting ready to attack ? 
Jerking the collar ? Does no more or less then tapping the side, in the case of a choke or pinch collar, its actually far more "biting" then a tap on the side.

Pat the dog on the head ? Jerk it backwards ? Do nothing ? ask it nicely to cut it out ? Never take it out anymore ? Put it to sleep ?

Obviously this dog has big issues with aggression not only to other dogs but other people. If a tap on the side sets it off I want to see what it would have done with a quick jerk on a pinch collar, which many people on here use and reccomend (if used correctly)

If I had a dog like that I would be grateful to anyone willing to put themselves in danger to help this dog, after all the other trainers have bowed out gracefully.


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## studio1one

I wouldn't have walked a known aggressive dog directly past another dog like that to make the situation arise in the first place. It is obviously way too much, too soon to put on a great show for the cameras. There is no reason on earth that dog needed to go through that kind of asphyxiation. It was placed in an environment and situation it should not have been placed in, but hey -- it makes good TV.

I have spent time at the wolf centre here in the UK

The Wolf Centre: Shaun Ellis at The Wolf Centre: The official website for Shaun Ellis - learning the truth about wolf and dog behaviour | Site

where genuinely wild animals are trained to be safe and sociable animals without any hanging or kicking at all. Shaun spent time out in the wild and actually integrated himself into a wolfpack, living wild with them for some time. I have seen them help the most aggressive and troubled dogs and never have they 'alpha rolled' them, hung them, kicked them or any other such training methods that seem to be popular with some people. 

As for Leerburg, I have similar opinions as I do on Cesar Millan.


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## GSKnight

studio1one said:


> I wouldn't have walked a known aggressive dog directly past another dog like that to make the situation arise in the first place. It is obviously way too much, too soon to put on a great show for the cameras. There is no reason on earth that dog needed to go through that kind of asphyxiation. It was placed in an environment and situation it should not have been placed in, but hey -- it makes good TV.
> 
> ***
> 
> As for Leerburg, I have similar opinions as I do on Cesar Millan.


I got the impression from the audio discussion that they were both her dogs, as he was asking questions to her, but I could be wrong.

Isn't that the great thing about opinions... we all have them... and they all...


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## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> I have spent time at the wolf centre here in the UK
> 
> The Wolf Centre: Shaun Ellis at The Wolf Centre: The official website for Shaun Ellis - learning the truth about wolf and dog behaviour | Site
> 
> where genuinely wild animals are trained to be safe and sociable animals without any hanging or kicking at all. Shaun spent time out in the wild and actually integrated himself into a wolfpack, living wild with them for some time. I have seen them help the most aggressive and troubled dogs and never have they 'alpha rolled' them, hung them, kicked them or any other such training methods that seem to be popular with some people.


So you have spent time at a Wolf centre ? So have I. If those wolfs were still acting as nature intented for them to act, you would have seen FAR harsher corrections between the animals then Cesar would ever dish out. There is no "fluff" and rainbows and sunshine. In a actual pack you will never even have a "dog" with behaviour problems as the ones Cesar deals with. The wolfs are raised in their own pack with strict rules, and the ones that "act out" are dealt with quickly and harshly. And its not through "10 sessions of positive re-direction". The ones that don't submit to the rules, die. 

Also...dogs aren't wolves. Dogs might have wolf traits but if you think you can live with a wolf, as you could with a dog, then good luck. No matter how much you redirect and train a wolf, its still a wolf. And that is good, as thats how they should be. 

That dog in the video didn't get kicked. There is a difference between a shove with the side of a foot and a "kick in the groin". I'm sure this could be demonstrated 

Also, the dog hung itself. Cesar went with his motions at all times, when the dog stayed down and away the pressure was off, when trying to rip Cesar, he kept the dog off by the collar. I've seen dogs choke themselves more then that just pulling their owners around on walks. 

Again, the proof is in the pudding. I'm 100% sure that the owners and the dogs that were on their last chance are nothing but grateful. 

If I filmed anyone interacting with their dogs for a day, you betcha I could find something in there to dissect and badmouth. However, having been involved in rescue I have seen actual abuse and there is a lot of that to go around. To compare that to what Cesar does is just simply ridiculous.

But yes, all this is just in my humble opinion.


----------



## studio1one

Yeah, I agree they both seemed to be her dogs. To me though that doesn't mean its still ok to engineer a situation where one dog can attack the other and then violently punish it. Redirection is great, although for me a heel to the abdomen is not great redirection.

I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video.

As for opinions we have a saying here in England. Opinions are like your butt, everyone has one and everyone's is as equally full of sh*t.


For what its worth, I have been very negative about trainers on this thread and I should counter balance that. One trainer I have a huge amount of respect for is Turid Rugaas.


----------



## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> So you have spent time at a Wolf centre ? So have I. If those wolfs were still acting as nature intented for them to act, you would have seen FAR harsher corrections between the animals then Cesar would ever dish out. There is no "fluff" and rainbows and sunshine. In a actual pack you will never even have a "dog" with behaviour problems as the ones Cesar deals with. The wolfs are raised in their own pack with strict rules, and the ones that "act out" are dealt with quickly and harshly. And its not through "10 sessions of positive re-direction". The ones that don't submit to the rules, die.


For sure, I would hope that we are a little more civilised than wolves though.


----------



## codmaster

studio1one said:


> I would rather set myself on fire than let him anywhere near any of my dogs.
> 
> Watch this video, it is typical of him. The dog is doing nothing until at 19 seconds Cesar kicks the dog in the abdomen, behind the rib cage where it has little protection.
> 
> The dog then goes for him, because he kicked it, so he strangles it until it nearly passes out.
> 
> The guy should be locked up.
> 
> I wonder how he would react if I was stood next to him then kicked him in the stomach for no reason?
> 
> Cesar Millan "The Dog Whisperer" strangles dog. Training? - YouTube


 
*It would really be interesting to watch (film?) you handling some of the dogs that he has worked with. Might set a record for Blue cross in a single year.*

*Do you happen to have any film already of you dealing with a seriously aggressive (people or dog or both) very large dog?*


----------



## longhairshepmom

Violent punishment ?
The scene in the video was far from any violent punishment. The tap to the side isn't even worth mentioning in the same sentence as "abuse". Anytime you play rough with your dog and pat their sides you touch them harder then that !!
And keeping the dog from ripping your throat out by holding him off is "violent punishment" ?? The dog knew full well the pressure was off as soon as he was down, each time. He did it to himself, and he did not get violently punished. He was not harmed. Dogs choke themselves harder pulling their owners around. 
Violent punishment is what many people around here recommend to do to a dog when it attacks your dog. Like a stick or bat to the head. A bullet to the brain. A actual hard kicking, meaning to break bones. 
If those 3 minutes of "harsh violent punishment" that the dog suffered saved him from either euthanisia, saved the other dog (and people) from being torn to pieces, saved the dog from a bullet, broken bones and bashed brains, then GOOD FOR THIS DOG. 

I know everyone has their own opinions and its perfectly alright for them to differ. But having seen true abuse, real violence and having that being compared to what Cesar does really doesn't sit well with me. 
I'm all for the ultimate GOOD for the animal, and I've seen way WAY to many animals suffer because of well intentioned humans that antrhomorphized animals right to death, ultimately.
And by the way, Cesar has also been very successful with extreme cases of fear and fear aggression in dogs. Again, proof is in the pudding. My first shepherd had weak nerves and it is the single hardest thing to deal with sucessfully. He ended up being one of the most treasured dogs ever, by us , my family and friends. He even accepted strangers eventually. Lots of hard work and LOTS of common sense later. 
Pretty much using Cesars methods (before I even knew Cesar existed, he didn't invent the wheel after all).


----------



## codmaster

studio1one said:


> Yeah, I agree they both seemed to be her dogs. To me though that doesn't mean its still ok to engineer a situation where one dog can attack the other and then violently punish it. Redirection is great, although for me a heel to the abdomen is not great redirection.
> 
> I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. *I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep* but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video. *Cesar has!*
> 
> As for opinions we have a saying here in England. Opinions are like your butt, everyone has one and everyone's is as equally full of sh*t. *As you do!*
> 
> 
> For what its worth, I have been very negative about trainers on this thread and I should counter balance that. *One trainer I have a huge amount of respect for is Turid Rugaas.*





*That does explain your posts! Thanks for explaining!*

*BTW, is she a trainer or a behaviorist?*


----------



## GSDkid

studio1one said:


> I'm actually dealing with a pup of my own right now that has real aggression issues, although fear based ones and have got her to the stage where we can walk through a park full of dogs, kids playing etc with her happily off leash without any kind of concern over what she may do, she will even go and sniff a stranger happily if directed to. It's been a lot of work and a hard slog but we got there without any prongs, chokes, harsh corrections or other such techniques. Building trust and faith in the handler (me) through correct body language and slow organised staged development of strangers has been the key. I guess I've never had to deal with a dog that it is a case of fix it or the dog will be put to sleep but I hope I would not resort to using the kind of technique shown in that video.


It's great that you are training your dog properly BUT these are dogs with serious issues already. These dogs already have a habit of aggression that are full size. I'm pretty sure if a positive trainer could fix this issue, these people wouldn't be on the show. Pups are small and young, they learn quickly and are easier to handle so that doesn't even compare to that big husky.

Also, CM was not punishing the dog. The dog was ready to launch at the other and CM redirected the launch towards himself. If he had let that leash go, the dog would be all over him. That leash was used to control the dog as well as protecting himself.


----------



## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> For sure, I would hope that we are a little more civilised than wolves though.


Bingo ! 
Yes we are. 
Because we are humans, and different from wolves. 
Just as we are different from dogs. They learn and act differently then us. Its humans that tend to make things more complicated then they are.


----------



## Twyla

I've always sat in wonder with the CM videos. They refuse to show the history of the dog, what it's options are if training isn't successful, nor do they show the aftermath and the actual results. The ones who create these videos pick and choose the parts to use, to specifically play up what would be seen as abuse if taken by itself.

Those with dominant or fear aggressive dogs know you have several tricks lined up to break focus depending on the level of focus. A hard case like the one shown in the video appeared to be a very controlled action taken by CM.


----------



## studio1one

codmaster said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> 
> *That does explain your posts! Thanks for explaining!*
> 
> *BTW, is she a trainer or a behaviorist?*




Indeed I do, I certainly wasn't excluding myself from my statement on opinions.

Rugaas is both a trainer and a behaviourist.


----------



## Debbieg

I did not think much of Cesar ( good or bad) just from watching the show because there is so much editing and things not shown. 
I also understand that the show is about rehabilitating dogs who have issues, some severe, and training the owners who may have unwittingly created the problem or are at least making it worse.

I had also been conditioned from negative things I had heard from the positive only class I had taken when Benny was a puppy. I did agree with Cesar always saying that the problem is usually the owner.

I do not agree with Cesars emphasis on dominance but I do agree that in a healthy relationship our dogs need to see and respect us as a benevolent leader. I would just substitute the word "leadership" for "dominance"

I changed my mind about Cesar when I read his book Cesar's rules . His way of raising a pup seems very balanced and sensible to me. I also think he does a lot to help rescue and many dogs have happy lives because of him. 

He has some good articles on this site and I think if more people read them we would have less cries for help in the behavior section. Just because we may not like every thing he says does not mean we should discount everything.

dog care | CesarsWay.com


----------



## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> Violent punishment ?
> The scene in the video was far from any violent punishment. The tap to the side isn't even worth mentioning in the same sentence as "abuse". Anytime you play rough with your dog and pat their sides you touch them harder then that !!
> And keeping the dog from ripping your throat out by holding him off is "violent punishment" ?? The dog knew full well the pressure was off as soon as he was down, each time. He did it to himself, and he did not get violently punished. He was not harmed. Dogs choke themselves harder pulling their owners around.
> Violent punishment is what many people around here recommend to do to a dog when it attacks your dog. Like a stick or bat to the head. A bullet to the brain. A actual hard kicking, meaning to break bones.
> If those 3 minutes of "harsh violent punishment" that the dog suffered saved him from either euthanisia, saved the other dog (and people) from being torn to pieces, saved the dog from a bullet, broken bones and bashed brains, then GOOD FOR THIS DOG.
> 
> I know everyone has their own opinions and its perfectly alright for them to differ. But having seen true abuse, real violence and having that being compared to what Cesar does really doesn't sit well with me.
> I'm all for the ultimate GOOD for the animal, and I've seen way WAY to many animals suffer because of well intentioned humans that antrhomorphized animals right to death, ultimately.
> And by the way, Cesar has also been very successful with extreme cases of fear and fear aggression in dogs. Again, proof is in the pudding. My first shepherd had weak nerves and it is the single hardest thing to deal with sucessfully. He ended up being one of the most treasured dogs ever, by us , my family and friends. He even accepted strangers eventually. Lots of hard work and LOTS of common sense later.
> Pretty much using Cesars methods (before I even knew Cesar existed, he didn't invent the wheel after all).




Hang on, I don't think I mentioned abuse anywhere here. I have taken in rescue dogs too, ones with real issues. I am not living in some cloud cuckoo land here that all dogs are nicey nicery really and you just need to give them love. I stand by the fact that the video there was an engineered situation that never needed to happen. He deliberately walked the dog into a situation where he knew aggression would occur and then asphyxiated the dog after it occured. It never needed to happen in the first place and I don't agree with the way he handled things, that dog never needed to go through that kind of treatment because he never needed to engineer the situation.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

About Turid Rugaas



> About Turid RugaasTurid Rugaas is an internationally renowned trainer and writer who has devoted her life to dogs, their behavior and their well-being.
> The Norwegian dog trainer has worked with dogs for many years and studied the body language of dogs for more than a decade. After a project where Turid and a colleague observed dogs carefully, recording their behaviour on video and in photographs, she became well-known around the world for her work on the calming signals. And Turid Rugaas is now one of the world's leading experts on dog behavior.
> In the critically acclaimed book On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals, she shares with us her insights on the fascinating world of communication between dogs, as well as dogs and their owners.
> Turid lives and works in Norway where she owns and runs a dog training school, Hagen Hundeskole. Being a popular speaker, she is spending more time abroad than at home, speaking and presenting programs at conferences, seminars and workshops.


I continue to find it ridiculous that so many people think that the_ only_ reason why anything negative whatsoever, said about Cesar Milan by anyone else in the dog training/behavior community has to be because they're jealous of him. Really?!?!? Apparently he can do no wrong.


----------



## longhairshepmom

Tell you the truth , I think the owner of both dogs MUCH prefers this situation being "engineered" rather then having this happen at any given moment in her own home, with nothing but her in between both dogs.

What is the alternative here ? So you think its preferable to always seperate the dogs so there won't be such a situation ? Ignoring the issues ? 

Sorry, but there would be a time where the people would slip up, accidently having both dogs together, perhaps a kid opened the wrong door at the wrong time. Someone could get killed. This would be a very dangerous and volatile situation.

It is always advisable to handle such a dangerous situation in a controlled (engineered) environment and have someone experienced be the one handling the situation. I think the owner would agree. 

I'm not sure about his particular episode, but in most such cases there has already been many other methods and trainers involved, and nothing got resolved. 

All that said, nobody is perfect. Noone should follow just "one lead" at all times. I think Cesar would be the first to say that he hasn't always been perfect. Looking at the big picture, though, he has done a great, great deal for dogs and owners. He raised awareness of how very important it is to have excersice and discipline in place. To understand that dogs are dogs, not little humans in fur. That most problems are created by owners, unwittingly. 

I have a friend whose cousin was helped by Cesar (with a bulldog). Yes, there is a lot the camera doesn't show, Cesar spends many more hours with the dogs. That person also said she was blown away by just how much of a nice, honest and genuine person Cesar really is. His love for the animals is his very essence (her words)


----------



## studio1one

codmaster said:


> *It would really be interesting to watch (film?) you handling some of the dogs that he has worked with. Might set a record for Blue cross in a single year.*
> 
> *Do you happen to have any film already of you dealing with a seriously aggressive (people or dog or both) very large dog?*


You know, I doubt I could run a religious organisation as efficiently as torquemada did either.......


----------



## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> Tell you the truth , I think the owner of both dogs MUCH prefers this situation being "engineered" rather then having this happen at any given moment in her own home, with nothing but her in between both dogs.
> 
> What is the alternative here ? So you think its preferable to always seperate the dogs so there won't be such a situation ? Ignoring the issues ?


The alternative is a temporary separation and gradual reintroduction a stage at a time, not going past the trigger point of the aggressive dog, learning why it triggered and then redirecting it away from the trigger until it had been conditioned out of the reaction. That would make poor TV though.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

studio1one said:


> The alternative is a temporary separation and gradual reintroduction a stage at a time, not going past the trigger point of the aggressive dog, learning why it triggered and then redirecting it away from the trigger until it had been conditioned out of the reaction. That would make poor TV though.


Oh, admit it - you're just jealous! oke:


----------



## GregK

studio1one said:


> That would make poor TV though.


You're right.


----------



## GSKnight

studio1one said:


> You know, I doubt I could run a religious organisation as efficiently as torquemada did either.......


I was going to post a link to Mel Brooks, History of The World Part 1, The Spanish Inquisition...  

But, though funny as heck, it does have some language some might not like.


----------



## studio1one

GSKnight said:


> I was going to post a link to Mel Brooks, History of The World Part 1, The Spanish Inquisition...
> 
> But, though funny as heck, it does have some language some might not like.




try this instead


----------



## codmaster

studio1one said:


> You know, I doubt I could run a religious organisation as efficiently as torquemada did either.......


 
Nice change of subject! And avoidance as well!


----------



## studio1one

codmaster said:


> Nice change of subject! And avoidance as well!



You know, if you search really hard you will find a relevant point in there.


----------



## longhairshepmom

um, ok. And just how would you know where the trigger point is ? When the dog "locks on" the other dog as it did in the video ? Since that was the first and only sign. And yes, at that stage you re-direct. Which is what Cesar did. 
So you would re-direct in another way then Cesar, instead of tapping you would...what ? And you think that would guarantee you not to get attacked right then for breaking the dogs focus ? Good luck !!
Most cases aren't that dramatic. What makes "good TV" is seeing just how many dogs got a second chance at life. And yes, they DO follow up on cases. See how many dog owners lifes got changed for the better. 
Not everyone is in it for the gore factor. 
And no, not everyone dislikes CM because they are jealous of him, I'm sure. No one thing works for everyone and sometimes peoples personalities just don't mesh. 
I don't "just" agree with CM. I do think there are many great trainers, behaviorists with many great methods. 
My point is with THIS video and how it was presented as violent punishement and whatnot. 
Nothing anyone says will change the fact that CM has saved many dogs life. For me, thats commendable.
His methods are nothing new anyway. Many people I know (myself included) have used his methods and philosophy before he became known. For me, its common sense and what works. 
But...to each their own


----------



## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> But...to each their own


Absolutely, we all do what we feel is best for our dogs, that's what really matters.


----------



## codmaster

studio1one said:


> Indeed I do, I certainly wasn't excluding myself from my statement on opinions.
> 
> Rugaas is both a trainer and a behaviourist.


Quote from her website to a question:

_*"That’s why finding a trainer is necessary, but it need to be one that will not use punishment during training as punishment will most certainly convice the dog that humans are in fact dangerous". 
*_

Would you happen to know what she considers "punishment"? *Would use of a prong be considered "punishment"?*

If so, I am very afraid that my 90lb male GSD is now convinced that humans in general (and me in particular!) should be considered "Dangerous"!

And I assume that the only reason that he comes up to me for petting and belly rubs and acts like a truly Velcro dog is because I will continue to "punish" him so harshly! 

And also why he is so pushy friendly with strangers and also why he just goes so silly with little kids - he must consider them to be even more dangerous!

And, OBTW, he can also be walked right next to the other male GSD that he used to want to kill every time he saw him (before a couple of sessions with a muzzle, prong and a pro trainer who really did know what he was doing with aggressive dogs). And it didn't take two years to train him to act civilized around this other dog.

Must be just a coincedence, heh?

And lastly he also just loves to see that particular pro trainer when we visit him (must be because he figures the guy is "dangerous" and he better be good to him!).


----------



## codmaster

studio1one said:


> Absolutely, we all do what we feel is best for our dogs, that's what really matters.


 
You are absolutelly correct!

But so many folks knock Cesar and his proven effective methods with truly aggressive dogs.


----------



## Marnie

It is always the owner's fault--always. Dogs never, ever get to the explosive stage if the owner is doing his job training the dog. That is the sad part. The next part is even sadder. The owner who let his dog get that far out of control will never be able to correct the problem or control that dog. That owner has no connection with dogs. The owner cannot read dog body language, has no idea what the dog is thinking, and no idea how to redirect the dog's attention. 

There is always more than one successful way to train a dog. There is more than one successful way to retrain a dog. Some methods are faster and others are slower. The bottom line is that some people have an instinct for it and some people never will. Caesar has that instinct in spades as well as common sense. He is also a great showman. These are not bad things but the owners will never be able to duplicate his handling techniques and the dogs he controls so easily will revert to bad behaviors as soon as he leaves them with their clueless owners. Caesar would not have a TV show if he used the BAT methods and it took him hours/days instead of minutes to get one positive result.

I have never seen Caesar do more than tap a dog in a sensitive body area, not to punish, but to get the dog's instant attention. The dog may very well perceive that tap to be a threat. So be it if it gets the dog's full attention. People who criticize Caesar’s methods are usually people who don’t have a lot of experience with difficult dogs and wouldn’t know what to do if faced with a really aggressive dog instead of just a frustrated barker (whom they think is aggressive).

As for credentials--who has credentials? The theory of dogs learning like wolves has been proven wrong, does that negate the credentials of a lot of older scientists? The theory that dogs need a dominant leader is even now being proven wrong by behaviorists. Whose credentials get canceled over that old theory? Who gets elected to award the credentials?


----------



## longhairshepmom

codmaster said:


> Quote from her website to a question:
> 
> _*"That’s why finding a trainer is necessary, but it need to be one that will not use punishment during training as punishment will most certainly convice the dog that humans are in fact dangerous". *_


WHAT ???

And what exactly is punishment ? Timeout? Beating? Taking things away? Removing from a situation ? 

Also, we better start taking puppies away from their mothers at birth and handraise them. Because god knows, the mom will punish her pups if they continue to push their limits. Enough to make the pup squeek. 

The real funny thing to me is how the people that are all into the ^^above^^ will make a 180 when we are talking about kids, their "training", limits, punishment and how we expect them or how they should behave and obey. How they need rules and discipline and how the "new age" parents with all their positive no punishment training are ruining humankind.


----------



## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> WHAT ???
> 
> And what exactly is punishment ? Timeout? Beating? Taking things away? Removing from a situation ?
> 
> Also, we better start taking puppies away from their mothers at birth and handraise them. Because god knows, the mom will punish her pups if they continue to push their limits. Enough to make the pup squeek.
> 
> The real funny thing to me is how the people that are all into the ^^above^^ will make a 180 when we are talking about kids, their "training", limits, punishment and how we expect them or how they should behave and obey. How they need rules and discipline and how the "new age" parents with all their positive no punishment training are ruining humankind.


It's interesting that you should bring that up actually. I often think about the fact that I will never use physical punishment on my children, so why should I use it on my dog?

I'm a firm believer that physical punishment teaches nothing but fear in both animals and humans. Others disagree.


----------



## nitemares

studio1one said:


> It's interesting that you should bring that up actually. I often think about the fact that I will never use physical punishment on my children, so why should I use it on my dog?
> 
> I'm a firm believer that physical punishment teaches nothing but fear in both animals and humans. Others disagree.


And it's obvious you don't have children otherwise i'm pretty sure you will not be saying that. 
I had the same idea's before I had my child, needless to say I don't think so anymore.


----------



## GSKnight

My dad had a rule... you do not take more than 5 steps inside with a hat on your head. If you did... you got the back of his hand knocking it off your head. Amazingly, I only needed to be reminded of this rule once.


----------



## studio1one

nitemares said:


> And it's obvious you don't have children otherwise i'm pretty sure you will not be saying that.
> I had the same idea's before I had my child, needless to say I don't think so anymore.



I have 3 all the way up to 15. I have never hit them, I prefer to use reason.


----------



## studio1one

Actually it is really interesting using this forum, it shows what a marked difference there is between the UK/Europe and the US when it comes to dog training. The ethos is so different.

You will struggle to find a prong collar here in the UK and E-collars are actually illegal. You will get fined £2000 if you are caught using one. Training using punishment is very looked down upon in general, I genuinely don't know a single dog owner / trainer that uses prong collars, muzzles or anything similar to train there dogs at all and generally people would be quite shocked if you did.

Not saying either is better or worse, it just highlights the big differences between cultures.


----------



## GSKnight

so, how's that euro thing panning out over there???


----------



## studio1one

GSKnight said:


> so, how's that euro thing panning out over there???




Not sure, go ask the French and Germans.


----------



## GSKnight

I was thinking more of the Greeks!!!


----------



## studio1one

yeah but it's the French and Germans that are keeping them propped up and stopping them imploding. 

Oh well, at least sunny holidays to beautiful sun kissed islands may soon be very cheap indeed...... every cloud and all that.


----------



## TriadGSD

i wonder if he has a permit for all those dog he has


----------



## Jack's Dad

These threads always go the same direction.
Cesar does what he does. Other trainers/behaviorists do what they do.
My problem with the arguments on Cesar is they are not based on apples vs apples.
If there are positive type trainers/behaviorists that can accomplish what he does then they should come forward and give the dog world an example of how to deal with a psycho fear reactive/aggressive dog.
I have no doubt there are many trainers/behaviorists who can deal with this type dog.
The question is how do they do it and how long does it take?
I would really like to see some of those who take issue with Cesar's methods show us the light.
I don't agree with everything Cesar does but when it comes to dealing with fear and aggression he is as good as anyone I've seen.
Neither his methods or anyone elses will last if the owners don't follow up.


----------



## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> It's interesting that you should bring that up actually. I often think about the fact that I will never use physical punishment on my children, so why should I use it on my dog?
> 
> I'm a firm believer that physical punishment teaches nothing but fear in both animals and humans. Others disagree.


Who said "physical punishment" ?
You will never use any kind of punishment ?? you do know that even "timeout" is punishment ? Cutting short a playdate because of fighting is punishment. Taking away priviliges is punishment. 

Punishment is open to interpretation. Even physical punishment. So a smack on the tush of a kid when it will refuse to try running across the street is ...wrong?
We are talking punishment, not ABUSE.

Punishment is a learning tool. Again, I'm not talking about abuse or smacking around.


----------



## Marnie

studio1one said:


> Actually it is really interesting using this forum, it shows what a marked difference there is between the UK/Europe and the US when it comes to dog training. The ethos is so different.
> 
> You will struggle to find a prong collar here in the UK and E-collars are actually illegal. You will get fined £2000 if you are caught using one. Training using punishment is very looked down upon in general, I genuinely don't know a single dog owner / trainer that uses prong collars, muzzles or anything similar to train there dogs at all and generally people would be quite shocked if you did./QUOTE]
> 
> Definitely a difference in UK and US methods with animals. I was strongly scolded by several UK residents for keeping my pet cats strictly in the house. Was told that they should be allowed outdoors. When I disagreed that getting killed by a car was far worse than being confined, they told me I was wrong. So, to each his own.


----------



## nitemares

studio1one said:


> I have 3 all the way up to 15. I have never hit them, I prefer to use reason.


Who said anything about hitting?? you said punishment, is hitting the only form of punishment you know??

You keep repeating the word punishment yet never elaborate on what in your opinion is punishment.

oh and i'm no where near the US.


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## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> Actually it is really interesting using this forum, it shows what a marked difference there is between the UK/Europe and the US when it comes to dog training. The ethos is so different.
> 
> You will struggle to find a prong collar here in the UK and E-collars are actually illegal. You will get fined £2000 if you are caught using one. Training using punishment is very looked down upon in general, I genuinely don't know a single dog owner / trainer that uses prong collars, muzzles or anything similar to train there dogs at all and generally people would be quite shocked if you did.
> 
> Not saying either is better or worse, it just highlights the big differences between cultures.


So what are you saying ? You mean the same as in Cesar Milan not using prongs and e-collars, just a simple slip on leash ? LOL

One other thing. I'm german and I lived half my life in Germany. I have been a member of a Schutzhund Club. I know many breeders, show people and dog lovers in Germany. I can honestly say that there IS a difference, but not in the way you say. Most people over there would shake their head at the mere notion that punishment is frowned upon and one better never discipline their dog. 
NOONE there abused their dog. But they are very matter of fact and they do use common sense. If a puppy tests its limits and pushes its boundaries it is disciplined and taught the correct way. That is not abuse. Regarding Cesar, I was asked by some dog fanciers from Germany why we need Cesar telling us how its done, it should be common sense...


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## studio1one

nitemares said:


> Who said anything about hitting?? you said punishment, is hitting the only form of punishment you know??
> 
> You keep repeating the word punishment yet never elaborate on what in your opinion is punishment.
> 
> oh and i'm no where near the US.


I said physical punishment. Maybe a language barrier but physical punishment means hitting / smacking / pushing.


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## studio1one

longhairshepmom said:


> So what are you saying ? You mean the same as in Cesar Milan not using prongs and e-collars, just a simple slip on leash ? LOL
> 
> One other thing. I'm german and I lived half my life in Germany. I have been a member of a Schutzhund Club. I know many breeders, show people and dog lovers in Germany. I can honestly say that there IS a difference, but not in the way you say. Most people over there would shake their head at the mere notion that punishment is frowned upon and one better never discipline their dog.
> NOONE there abused their dog. But they are very matter of fact and they do use common sense. If a puppy tests its limits and pushes its boundaries it is disciplined and taught the correct way. That is not abuse. Regarding Cesar, I was asked by some dog fanciers from Germany why we need Cesar telling us how its done, it should be common sense...


Please stop with the abuse thing, I have made it very clear that I have not intimated, mentioned or insinuated anyone is abusing their dogs.


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## longhairshepmom

studio1one said:


> Please stop with the abuse thing, I have made it very clear that I have not intimated, mentioned or insinuated anyone is abusing their dogs.


So you have not used the word "abuse" per se.
You have only said that you would rather set yourself on fire then let Cesar near your dogs.
That Cesar should be locked up.
That Cesar kicked the dog in the stomach/groin.
That Cesar "violently punished" the dog.
That Cesar "asphyxiated" the dog.

I'm sorry, but to me that actually did insinuate abuse.

Just cross out where I said "abuse" and insert "violent punishment".


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## studio1one

OK, lets start again.

clearly I would not rather set myself on fire than let him near my dogs, nor would I like him to be locked up. I didn't expect to be taken so literally, my mistake and poor communcation skills.

Regards to other people abusing there dogs, I made it very clear that I believe everyone is doing what they believe to be best for their dogs and that is the most important thing.

Back to the video.

I do believe that the treatment and set up of that video is very wrong and highlights perfectly the issues I have with Cesar, or more specifically with the TV programme.

The dog was asphyxiated until it could not move, I do believe it was violently punished for a situation he created and could have avoided. 

Is that specific instance bordering on abuse, for me yes it is. Mainly because the situation was set up for the cameras to make good TV and the dog was put through a very unpleasant experience because of it.


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## Marnie

studio1one said:


> OK, lets start again.
> 
> clearly I would not rather set myself on fire than let him near my dogs, nor would I like him to be locked up. I didn't expect to be taken so literally, my mistake and poor communcation skills.
> 
> Regards to other people abusing there dogs, I made it very clear that I believe everyone is doing what they believe to be best for their dogs and that is the most important thing.
> 
> Back to the video.
> 
> I do believe that the treatment and set up of that video is very wrong and highlights perfectly the issues I have with Cesar, or more specifically with the TV programme.
> 
> The dog was asphyxiated until it could not move, I do believe it was violently punished for a situation he created and could have avoided.
> 
> Is that specific instance bordering on abuse, for me yes it is. Mainly because the situation was set up for the cameras to make good TV and the dog was put through a very unpleasant experience because of it.


I am really interested in what you would have done. How would you show the family that this dog (and other dogs like him) are not beyond redemption? How many people, besides Caesar, would have gone in and leashed him? Don't kid yourself that there are tons of local trainers who would even try to handle him. How long to retrain him? How much money? All Caesar did was show the owners that their dog wasn't the monster they thought he was. He was actually handled very quickly and with minimum fuss. And that is exactly what the dog needed. Someone to show him a better way to deal with people. It may not have been the high point of the dog's day but hopefully it saved him from a really bad fate. 

The dog is not beyond help. His owners were afraid of him and he, being a dog, is very stressed and has no way of knowing how to fix this situation. Personally, I would love to have this dog. He needs to be in another home!


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## GSKnight

I like the method the trainer I am using teaches. It makes logical sense to me. The short version goes kinda like this...

First... it is all "command-performance-praise-treat".... then, once he gets it, you move to "command-performance-praise-less treats"... then "command-performance-praise- just a treat here and there", then "ok, now he knows this command... if he doesn't do it... give him a "pop" on the training collar... still with plenty of praise and a treat once in a while... "

This progresses over weeks/months... I can see the logic of a correction when it is called for. 

am I making sense???


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## studio1one

Marnie said:


> I am really interested in what you would have done. How would you show the family that this dog (and other dogs like him) are not beyond redemption? How many people, besides Caesar, would have gone in and leashed him? Don't kid yourself that there are tons of local trainers who would even try to handle him. How long to retrain him? How much money? All Caesar did was show the owners that their dog wasn't the monster they thought he was. He was actually handled very quickly and with minimum fuss. And that is exactly what the dog needed. Someone to show him a better way to deal with people. It may not have been the high point of the dog's day but hopefully it saved him from a really bad fate.
> 
> The dog is not beyond help. His owners were afraid of him and he, being a dog, is very stressed and has no way of knowing how to fix this situation. Personally, I would love to have this dog. He needs to be in another home!


First I would like to know if the dog has had a full physiological assessment by a physiologist and not just the local vet. It is common for dogs with aggression issues to have muscle problems and other issues that put them in a permanent state of low level pain. Often they will lash out at the easiest target - in this case the submissive dog he lives with. If anything shows up I would like to see physiotherapy tried. I would like to know if it has had its thyroid tested and thyroid misfunction is a common cause of aggression.

If there is no luck with that I would like to see someone who can read dogs long distance signals bring the dog towards the other dog and read what it is giving off, why is the dog aggressive? is it fear, frustration, lack of understanding signals, domination, territorial?. Once you understand the route of the aggression then you can look at an effective management, or cure depending on the cause. 

For instance if it is fear that is causing in it then I would like to see the dogs walked towards each other on a leash. Once it is feeling scared but before the stress level reaches aggression it should be redirected with a job to do. Food in a box that it has to work out how to get it out or similar. by the time it finishes the task it will be relaxed and can be brought closer to the other dog and then another task given.

Eventually, we are talking days / weeks here, you should be able to get the two dogs in touching distance without aggression. At that point, if safe, I would like to see one person hand feed both dogs from both hands every meal for 3 days. Of course using bite proof training gloves.

I genuinely do not believe that the dog shown in the video would act any differently next time it was brought near the other dog. I don't see any cure done there at all, all I see is a dog stressed to the point of what is known as 'learned helplessness'. 

Cesar uses learned helplessness a lot to show that he has made a vicious dog relax, he hasn't at all. He has stressed it to a psychological state that is a well known phenomenon and means a dog is extremely traumatised to the point that is has given up trying to escape.

read about the scientific studies of learned helplessness here

Learned Helplessness - What Is Learned Helplessness


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## codmaster

Hi studio,

Just out of curiosity, how many truly dog aggressive dogs have you either owned and "fixed' or have trained for another owner? What breeds and ages?

And could you tell us all to what level have they been rehabilitated - i.e. to a dog park off lead running with strange dogs, to be able to walk by a strange aggressive looking dog on a sidewalk on leash with the owner, to within 20' leashed within a strange dog, or ??????

You have been giving us all a lot of information, and I would like to know some specific examples of the breed(s) and ages of the dogs on which your techniques worked and to what degree, like I asked above?

Personally, I have had only a couple of my own dogs that have been DA (out of 7 total GSD's) and we have worked like heck to rehabilitate them enough to be around other DA dogs in a social setting like a dog show. So I would love to see a method that would, by all accounts that I read here, work a lot better and with less effort than I have been using.


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## studio1one

codmaster said:


> Hi studio,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many truly dog aggressive dogs have you either owned and "fixed' or have trained for another owner? What breeds and ages?
> 
> And could you tell us all to what level have they been rehabilitated - i.e. to a dog park off lead running with strange dogs, to be able to walk by a strange aggressive looking dog on a sidewalk on leash with the owner, to within 20' leashed within a strange dog, or ??????
> 
> You have been giving us all a lot of information, and I would like to know some specific examples of the breed(s) and ages of the dogs on which your techniques worked and to what degree, like I asked above?
> 
> Personally, I have had only a couple of my own dogs that have been DA (out of 7 total GSD's) and we have worked like heck to rehabilitate them enough to be around other DA dogs in a social setting like a dog show. So I would love to see a method that would, by all accounts that I read here, work a lot better and with less effort than I have been using.


I have had 1 dog that I would say was genetically aggressive through fear. I have had a couple of dogs from rescue that were aggressive that I couldn't know if they had a predisposition for aggression or if it was purely environmental, as I had no knowledge of there history.

My shepherd who was aggressive through fear, as stated earlier will now happily walk through the park, including through a kids playground with no leash and I would have absolutely no doubt at all that she will not be reactive or cause any problems at all. I got her at 2 months and she would bark and growl at everyone she didn't know, if guests came she would hide under the table then growl and lunge at them. She is now just over 4 months old and it is in the last week that I am totally comfortable with how she behaves and reacts. So I would say it was a 2 month solid rehabilitation from her natural weak nerves to a dog that is totally stable but not happy to be touched by people she doesn't know. If people approach her to touch her now she will come straight to my side and sit. I will then read her to see if she is happy to be petted and if not then I ask people not to touch her. She shows no signs of stress or aggression though.

Dogs from rescue were of unknown lineage and breed, certainly one of them had some kind of bull terrier in them and the other aggressive one had some border colly. Again ages I couldn't give you but they were mature when I got them.

The bull terrier was just snappy and nasty to everyone, people and dogs. It took a couple of weeks before I would let him mix with the other dogs on my farm unsupervised and then another couple of months before I would let him off leash to chase a ball in public spaces but only if he had focus on a ball. Maybe another 3 weeks after that I was comfortable with him in all situations.

The bitch that had some colly in her was quite easy, I think she was just frustrated from not being given enough tasks, excersise and direction. I got her doing working trials quite quickly and she bonded well to everyone. She still has a strong herding instinct and I would be concerned about letting her off leash in a childrens playgound. She wouldn't all out attack anyone but she would probably try herding the kids and may end up nipping them if they didn't do what she wanted.

I don't and haven't had a dog that I have not got into a situation where I am happy walking it off leash in public areas.

Unfortunately, like you, I have never found a quick fix for a dog that doesn't take a ton of work and time, unlike the TV show, where apparently they are all fixed after a quick wrestle.


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## heartdog

Ah, the Cesar debate. I'm always sucked in lol. There's almost always the same types of arguments thrown back and forth. Jealousy, dogs that are going to be put to death if not for him, positive doesn't work for 'red zone' yadda yadda. I don't see that as a "tap" either. Kick might be a bit harsh, but if a dog is THAT focused, a little tap isn't going to do it. Plus, there's a lot of editing. I've seen footage where there's a cut, and suddenly the dog is collapsed with a blue tongue. 

I'm in the camp of relationship based training. I'm not an extremist with positive methods, thinking one shouldn't even say 'no' to a dog, but I don't believe in force and domination either. I have a near 100 lb working line GSD, and I'm in a wheelchair, trained to be my service dog through positive teaching. I'm not hard core against prong collars, but I prefer to not use anything that causes physical discomfort to train. What CM is about, to me, is a lot of intimidation, forcing submission. I don't want a submissive dog! I want a cooperative one


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## nitemares

Again, a lot seem to misunderstand what Cesar is. He is not a trainer, he rehabilitates severely aggressive dogs. I can see also that a lot of the ppl who critisize him have either seen only a couple of episodes or just pieces of videos like the one shown here where Cesar "kicked" the dog. You have to see the whole picture, usually there's a bit of background of the dog and almost 80% the owners tried everything and the only thing left was putting the dog to sleep. 
I do not use this method with my dog, my dog is not aggressive. And studio1one, really a 2 months pup is not an aggressive dog, unless it's a language barrier and I misunderstood. Fearful? yes aggressive? I don't think so. and even if it were I still would not use his methods on a puppy.
like it was said before, he is normally the last line of defense before a dog is put to sleep. and if he fails btw they show it. they follow up on all their cases months later and also every couple of seasons there's a follow up on dogs from older seasons. most make it and are happy dogs. Some don't and are either put to sleep or rehomed or Cesar himself would take them in.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

heartdog said:


> Ah, the Cesar debate. I'm always sucked in lol. There's almost always the same types of arguments thrown back and forth. Jealousy, dogs that are going to be put to death if not for him, positive doesn't work for 'red zone' yadda yadda. I don't see that as a "tap" either. Kick might be a bit harsh, but if a dog is THAT focused, a little tap isn't going to do it. Plus, there's a lot of editing. I've seen footage where there's a cut, and suddenly the dog is collapsed with a blue tongue.
> 
> I'm in the camp of relationship based training. I'm not an extremist with positive methods, thinking one shouldn't even say 'no' to a dog, but I don't believe in force and domination either. I have a near 100 lb working line GSD, and I'm in a wheelchair, trained to be my service dog through positive teaching. I'm not hard core against prong collars, but I prefer to not use anything that causes physical discomfort to train. What CM is about, to me, is a lot of intimidation, forcing submission. I don't want a submissive dog! I want a cooperative one


Nicely said.


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## longhairshepmom

nitemares said:


> Again, a lot seem to misunderstand what Cesar is. He is not a trainer, he rehabilitates severely aggressive dogs. I can see also that a lot of the ppl who critisize him have either seen only a couple of episodes or just pieces of videos like the one shown here where Cesar "kicked" the dog. You have to see the whole picture, usually there's a bit of background of the dog and almost 80% the owners tried everything and the only thing left was putting the dog to sleep.
> I do not use this method with my dog, my dog is not aggressive. And studio1one, really a 2 months pup is not an aggressive dog, unless it's a language barrier and I misunderstood. Fearful? yes aggressive? I don't think so. and even if it were I still would not use his methods on a puppy.
> like it was said before, he is normally the last line of defense before a dog is put to sleep. and if he fails btw they show it. they follow up on all their cases months later and also every couple of seasons there's a follow up on dogs from older seasons. most make it and are happy dogs. Some don't and are either put to sleep or rehomed or Cesar himself would take them in.


Exactly !! Well said.

By the say, Studio, I read your other posts on your "fear aggressive" puppy. I do not believe you have a true case of genetically weak nerves. 

First of all, as other people that posted in your thread have said, if you DO, they are that way from Day 1. Literally. I have had one and he too was that way from day 1.
You said your pup was happy go lucky at the breeder and for over a week at your house as well. Greeting people, being completely happy go lucky typical pup. Then the issues arose with strangers and people coming to the house. You said you are home 24/7. To me it sounds like you somehow or someone / somehow inadvertantly caused the issues with this pup. Which would explain why you have gotten a handle on it rather quickly, although the pup is not completely over it yet. 

True genetic weak nerves is not something they suddenly get, and then just as quickly (talking a few weeks) get over it, no matter WHAT kind of training applied. I have done a ton of research and talked to countless people about this, not to mention raise a dog with this problem. 

No matter what happened , I'm glad that you got a handle on it and that the pup is improving. 

Like the other poster said, it doesn't really pertain which method one prefers, many cases Cesar works with, have been GIVEN UP ON by Trainers using those other methods. So what would those people prefer ? 
The dog suffer 2 minutes of stress (plus the follow up training which is usually far less dramatic, but has to be kept up) or that the dog is put down ???
If we could ask the dog, I think we would have our answer.

And yes, Cesar follows up on all cases, sometimes years later, and some of the MOST dramatic cases come back as well adjusted dogs and thrilled owners. Kudos to that, every single one of those lifes DID deserve a second chance, and they got it thanks to Cesar. No matter what else, that deserves recognition. I'm against religiously following any "one" trainer, whether that pertains to dogs or horses, but I do think Cesar has his place, and has and does do a lot of good for dogs.


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## Marnie

studio1one said:


> First I would like to know if the dog has had a full physiological assessment by a physiologist and not just the local vet. It is common for dogs with aggression issues to have muscle problems and other issues that put them in a permanent state of low level pain. Often they will lash out at the easiest target - in this case the submissive dog he lives with. If anything shows up I would like to see physiotherapy tried. I would like to know if it has had its thyroid tested and thyroid misfunction is a common cause of aggression.
> 
> If there is no luck with that I would like to see someone who can read dogs long distance signals bring the dog towards the other dog and read what it is giving off, why is the dog aggressive? is it fear, frustration, lack of understanding signals, domination, territorial?. Once you understand the route of the aggression then you can look at an effective management, or cure depending on the cause.
> 
> For instance if it is fear that is causing in it then I would like to see the dogs walked towards each other on a leash. Once it is feeling scared but before the stress level reaches aggression it should be redirected with a job to do. Food in a box that it has to work out how to get it out or similar. by the time it finishes the task it will be relaxed and can be brought closer to the other dog and then another task given.
> 
> Eventually, we are talking days / weeks here, you should be able to get the two dogs in touching distance without aggression. At that point, if safe, I would like to see one person hand feed both dogs from both hands every meal for 3 days. Of course using bite proof training gloves.
> 
> I genuinely do not believe that the dog shown in the video would act any differently next time it was brought near the other dog. I don't see any cure done there at all, all I see is a dog stressed to the point of what is known as 'learned helplessness'.
> 
> Cesar uses learned helplessness a lot to show that he has made a vicious dog relax, he hasn't at all. He has stressed it to a psychological state that is a well known phenomenon and means a dog is extremely traumatised to the point that is has given up trying to escape.
> 
> read about the scientific studies of learned helplessness here
> 
> Learned Helplessness - What Is Learned Helplessness


I don't agree with most of what you have said. Caesar did not retrain/rehab the dog. He's good but he isn't a miracle worker. In one ten minute or less video nobody could fix this behavior. He simply showed the owner and everyone watching that the dog was not beyond redemption and in fact could be controlled and become a safe pet. He also showed us all what a terrible mess the wrong owners can make of a perfectly good dog. In other words, his message was don't quit on this dog, he needs help. Did the dog get that help? Probably not. Once an owner is afraid of their own dog, nothing is likely to change. We can only hope they gave the dog away instead of euthanizing it.

In the right hands, this dog would be completely different in a couple days. Do not doubt that in Caesar's hands the dog would be rehabed in days. The bottom line is, he can't save every single troubled dog and he can't remove them all from foolish owners. He can only point the owners in a direction toward that goal. 

Television is something that is supposed to grab the viewers attention. It can be true, it can be educational, but it is always staged for time constraints and max effect. That's why every episode comes with a warning: _Don't try this at home_. Now, IMHO, your rehab techniques would not work on this dog given the quality of owners he has. BTW, this is not fear aggression. 

And for more practical matters, in what city are you gonna find a dog physiologist? I live in the second largest city in IL and I don't think there are any here. Maybe a hundred miles away in Chicago. And what would be the cost? More than the price of the dog, certainly. And where could I find a full physiological assessment _from not just a vet_? Who's is gonna spend thousand of dollars on a dog they have come to fear and probably dislike? Are fearful parents ever going to trust this dog near their kid?


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## Cassidy's Mom

nitemares said:


> Again, a lot seem to misunderstand what Cesar is.


I disagree. This is another of theose prevalent CM myths. I think everyone, both those who love him and those who criticize some of his methods, know exactly what he is.

Training and behavior are not mutually exclusive. Modifying behavior involves training, whether you're teaching a new emotional response or a new physical response by the dog. Training can and should change behavior, and will if done properly.


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## Samba

I have seen many successful "rehabilitations" begin with training. It can be of great value in the process. I was surprised when I first watched "the most dominant human being in the entire animal world" (luv Colbert) and he eschewed training during behavior modification.


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## nitemares

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I disagree. This is another of theose prevalent CM myths. I think everyone, both those who love him and those who criticize some of his methods, know exactly what he is.
> 
> Training and behavior are not mutually exclusive. Modifying behavior involves training, whether you're teaching a new emotional response or a new physical response by the dog. Training can and should change behavior, and will if done properly.


True, but a trainer is not always a behaviorist nor a behaviorist is always a trainer. you need both to rehabilitate a dog yes, but they don't necessarily have to be the same person. 
This is just my humble opinion but I believe that behavior modification work more on a dogs instinct or genetics or whatever the dog is made of and work around it. while training is just training a dog to perform, and that is only hiding a problem and not really solving it. So you change the dogs perspective first with behavior modification then train the dog how to act in that situation, and I believe Cesar does the first, but that's just my humble, non expert opinion. I could be wrong


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## GregK

A good Behaviorist should be a good trainer.

A good trainer should have a pretty good understanding of dog behavior.

The video of Cesar getting bit by the Husky was a good lesson on what to do when a dog attacks. :thumbup:

It was also a very poor lesson on how to train a reactive dog! :thumbsdown:


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## Jack's Dad

studio1one said:


> First I would like to know if the dog has had a full physiological assessment by a physiologist and not just the local vet. It is common for dogs with aggression issues to have muscle problems and other issues that put them in a permanent state of low level pain. Often they will lash out at the easiest target - in this case the submissive dog he lives with. If anything shows up I would like to see physiotherapy tried. I would like to know if it has had its thyroid tested and thyroid misfunction is a common cause of aggression.
> 
> If there is no luck with that I would like to see someone who can read dogs long distance signals bring the dog towards the other dog and read what it is giving off, why is the dog aggressive? is it fear, frustration, lack of understanding signals, domination, territorial?. Once you understand the route of the aggression then you can look at an effective management, or cure depending on the cause.
> 
> For instance if it is fear that is causing in it then I would like to see the dogs walked towards each other on a leash. Once it is feeling scared but before the stress level reaches aggression it should be redirected with a job to do. Food in a box that it has to work out how to get it out or similar. by the time it finishes the task it will be relaxed and can be brought closer to the other dog and then another task given.
> 
> Eventually, we are talking days / weeks here, you should be able to get the two dogs in touching distance without aggression. At that point, if safe, I would like to see one person hand feed both dogs from both hands every meal for 3 days. Of course using bite proof training gloves.


How many people do you think would be willing to sit through all that on TV. You and who else.


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## Cassidy's Mom

nitemares said:


> This is just my humble opinion but I believe that behavior modification work more on a dogs instinct or genetics or whatever the dog is made of and work around it. while training is just training a dog to perform, and that is only hiding a problem and not really solving it. So you change the dogs perspective first with behavior modification then train the dog how to act in that situation, and I believe Cesar does the first, but that's just my humble, non expert opinion. *I could be wrong*


No offense, but I think you are.  I suppose using your very narrow definition of training as merely teaching a dog to perform, then it makes sense, but I personally think there's more to training than sits, downs, stays, and recalls. a lot more. 

And I completely disagree that training hides problems rather than solves them, and also that Cesar changes the dog's perspective with behavior modification. He may change the dog's actions, but I really question if it goes much beyond that in many cases.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GregK said:


> A good Behaviorist should be a good trainer.
> 
> A good trainer should have a pretty good understanding of dog behavior.
> 
> The video of Cesar getting bit by the Husky was a good lesson on what to do when a dog attacks. :thumbup:
> 
> It was also a very poor lesson on how to train a reactive dog! :thumbsdown:


Very well put, Greg!


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## Karin

We go on dog walks with a group of people in our neighborhood every so often. One of the dogs that go on the walk with us is that husky in the video. The owner (who is involved with husky rescue) told us that the couple who adopted the husky couldn't handle him and went to Cesar for help. After this man saw that TV episode, he flew to Los Angeles and demanded that they return the husky to him or he would take them to court. He felt that Shadow being choked and kicked by Cesar constituted abuse and it infuriated him.

Shadow now has a permanent home with his rescuer, who handles him very well. Yes, he is a dominant dog--he's acted dominant toward Heidi on occasion. Shadow has never snapped or growled at anyone and has always been friendly to people and tolerant of other dogs. My husband and I have petted him several times with no problems. Like Greg said, this type of "training" was just not right for this type of dog.

I'm just glad that Shadow is with someone who treats him well (firmly, but well) and that he seems to have a very good life now. I think that you just don't know the whole story with these TV shows. I'm sure that Cesar has had some success with certain dogs, but failures with others because of his methods.


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## Ucdcrush

GregK said:


> It was also a very poor lesson on how to train a reactive dog! :thumbsdown:


How can you say that? I don't remember the rest of that episode, but typically reactive dogs end up walking with/past other dogs, no longer reacting, when Cesar is working with them.

If you are saying his method does not work to make reactive dogs non-reactive, that's wrong. Just watch the rest of the episode and/or the show in general and you will see it working.

When these Cesar debates come up, and people come out saying that he is doing things WRONG, they don't seem to address the results he gets (or the results we see, to be fair). Let the results speak for whether his method is right or wrong.

Now, an average Joe who watches that then goes out and tries it, is not likely to be successful and may make things worse. But having average Joes try his method is not why Cesar makes the show, so I don't think that would be a criticism of him or his show.


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## GregK

Ucdcrush said:


> When these Cesar debates come up, and people come out saying that he is doing things WRONG, they don't seem to address the results he gets (or the results we see, to be fair). Let the results speak for whether his method is right or wrong.


Let me go eat my dinner, then I'll tell you what he did wrong.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Wow, Karin, that's amazing. I am so glad they got him back!!!! Great foster home.


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## Ucdcrush

Karin said:


> I'm sure that Cesar has had some success with certain dogs, but failures with others because of his methods.


Sure, that's true with anyone. But when you say "his methods", what do you mean exactly? Here he is using "his methods" to help a dog get over fear of vacuum cleaners.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

So this isn't enough? A person who has met the dog in the video in this thread? 

Stupid first hand information of what happens after the cameras are off!!!! 



Karin said:


> We go on dog walks with a group of people in our neighborhood every so often. One of the dogs that go on the walk with us is that husky in the video. The owner (who is involved with husky rescue) told us that the couple who adopted the husky couldn't handle him and went to Cesar for help. After this man saw that TV episode, he flew to Los Angeles and demanded that they return the husky to him or he would take them to court. He felt that Shadow being choked and kicked by Cesar constituted abuse and it infuriated him.
> 
> Shadow now has a permanent home with his rescuer, who handles him very well. Yes, he is a dominant dog--he's acted dominant toward Heidi on occasion. Shadow has never snapped or growled at anyone and has always been friendly to people and tolerant of other dogs. My husband and I have petted him several times with no problems. Like Greg said, this type of "training" was just not right for this type of dog.
> 
> I'm just glad that Shadow is with someone who treats him well (firmly, but well) and that he seems to have a very good life now. I think that you just don't know the whole story with these TV shows. I'm sure that Cesar has had some success with certain dogs, but failures with others because of his methods.


 I can't watch video but was wondering if he flank popped or held the dog down near the vacuum cleaner? Held him down while he vacuumed him? Or did he use conventional methods that are not the type being discussed here? 

It is always interesting these discussions!

Like JacksDad said the good TV is not in the slow training - unfortunately people see this and think that dogs should respond this quickly, all the time, and will do whatever it takes to get that to happen, because that's what they see on TV.


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## Karin

What I mean by "his methods" is the tools that he uses to get dogs to do what he wants (I don't think I need to spell them out). I don't believe in a "one size fits all" mentality for training dogs. Dogs have different personalities and some "methods" of training work better than others. My dog is fearful, reactive, and sensitive. She's not going to react to things in the same way as a happy-go-lucky fearless dog would. If I tried to train her the way I've seen Cesar do on TV, she would shut down. A gentle, reward-based training has worked very well for her.


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## Ucdcrush

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So this isn't enough? A person who has met the dog in the video in this thread?
> 
> Stupid first hand information of what happens after the cameras are off!!!!


"Enough" to do what?

It's great to hear that the dog is doing fine and he is probably with a person who is better suited to handle him now. But how does that story have anything to do with Cesar's method? How the dog originally reacted on the show was due to the way he was (mis)handled by the previous owner. All Cesar did was go in and get the dog to chill out around other dogs.

All we know is that someone reacted to the show and threatened to sue, to get the dog back. Now the dog is with a different owner and is doing well.


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## Ucdcrush

Karin said:


> What I mean by "his methods" is the tools that he uses to get dogs to do what he wants (I don't think I need to spell them out). I don't believe in a "one size fits all" mentality for training dogs. Dogs have different personalities and some "methods" of training work better than others.


I posted the Woman's day video to show his methods, and I don't believe the methods in that particular video are what most people think of when they refer to his methods. They are referring to physically forcing, pinning down etc., or what they interpret as kicking.

I don't think if people have watched an entire episode, especially the most recent seasons, they should continue to refer to "his methods" as being confined to only physical force, intimidation etc. It paints an inaccurate picture of his methods IMO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ucdcrush said:


> "Enough" to do what?
> 
> It's great to hear that the dog is doing fine and he is probably with a person who is better suited to handle him now. But how does that story have anything to do with Cesar's method? How the dog originally reacted on the show was due to the way he was (mis)handled by the previous owner. All Cesar did was go in and get the dog to chill out around other dogs.
> 
> All we know is that someone reacted to the show and threatened to sue, to get the dog back. Now the dog is with a different owner and is doing well.


And mishandled by...Cesar further. 

And answering those who said what about the follow up. Well, there you have it, follow up. 

Looking forward to GregK's post.


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## codmaster

Karin said:


> What I mean by "his methods" is the tools that he uses to get dogs to do what he wants (I don't think I need to spell them out). I don't believe in a "one size fits all" mentality for training dogs. Dogs have different personalities and some "methods" of training work better than others. My dog is fearful, reactive, and sensitive. She's not going to react to things in the same way as a happy-go-lucky fearless dog would. If I tried to train her the way I've seen Cesar do on TV, she would shut down. A gentle, reward-based training has worked very well for her.


Ceasar doesn't "train" dogs - he rehabilitates extreme cases. if your dog is fearful, etc. then "his method" would be a very different approach than used on a very HA dog who will "come up the leash" at the handler if he feels threatened. there are not many folks who can handle those types of dogs and they need a foreceful pro to do so. until someone has had a dog like that at the end of their very own leash, perhaps it would be the prudent thing to do to stop commenting on someone else's successful approach.

BTW, did you see the CM show where he was dealing with a VERY fearful dog who would start shaking and shutting down just from ordinary street noises and people? he actually would hold her tail up when the dog tried to tuck it - said that just the position of the dog's tail would influence her attitude and behavior! Seemed to work also.

Doesn't sound like a really nasty approach to handling a dog, does it? Real bully, eh!


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## codmaster

Karin said:


> What I mean by "his methods" is the tools that he uses to get dogs to do what he wants (I don't think I need to spell them out). I don't believe in a "one size fits all" mentality for training dogs. Dogs have different personalities and some "methods" of training work better than others. My dog is fearful, reactive, and sensitive. She's not going to react to things in the same way as a happy-go-lucky fearless dog would. If I tried to train her the way I've seen Cesar do on TV, she would shut down. A gentle, reward-based training has worked very well for her.


Just out of curiosity, how many really aggressive dogs(Human or Dog) have you had any personal experience with, to be able to comment so negatively on how a very successful pro handles them?

Have you ever seen Ceasar handle one of the frequent fearful dogs that are on the show?


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## nitemares

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No offense, but I think you are.  I suppose using your very narrow definition of training as merely teaching a dog to perform, then it makes sense, but I personally think there's more to training than sits, downs, stays, and recalls. a lot more.
> 
> And I completely disagree that training hides problems rather than solves them, and also that Cesar changes the dog's perspective with behavior modification. He may change the dog's actions, but I really question if it goes much beyond that in many cases.


Haha non taken, like I said I'm no expert, and I think the definition of training is different from one person to the other, for me it is a matter of tricks. 
But I love learning new things everyday, and this thread is one of those threads.


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## longhairshepmom

What about those hundreds of "follow ups" and well known successful stories ? Can any of the other trainers come up with that many ? Not to mention, most of those cases are the ones that other trainers GAVE UP ON.
Lets not just get hung up on one story. Btw. even if those people got that husky back, by the time they did, not only did Cesar work with him, but the owners probably at least attempted to keep up with what they were told to do. Its easy to say the former rescue took the dog back and fixed it. They took it back after someone else fixed it. The tap to the side of the dog is there for all to see, no editing , if anyone can say that was a "viscious kick" then whatever. I bet everything I own that anyone here has tapped their dog harder then that just playing with it. Whether with the side of the foot, or hand, or arm, or whatever. 
I'm not a religious follower of any one trainer/behaviorist , I like to take something away from anyone I observe. However, numbers don't lie. Cesar helped a tremendous amount of people / dogs. Many of them on death row. Many of them given up on by other trainers. To me, that is very much commendable.


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## Ucdcrush

Well put.

I would just reiterate that there is not evidence to consider this case a "failure" of Cesar's. The fact that someone threatened legal action to obtain the dog says nothing of the effectiveness of Cesar's work. If I remember the episode, the dog ended up tolerating being around other dogs, walking with them. At least that's how most of his dog aggression shows go, with rare exception.


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## Cassidy's Mom

codmaster said:


> BTW, did you see the CM show where he was dealing with a VERY fearful dog who would start shaking and shutting down just from ordinary street noises and people? he actually would hold her tail up when the dog tried to tuck it - said that just the position of the dog's tail would influence her attitude and behavior! Seemed to work also.
> 
> Doesn't sound like a really nasty approach to handling a dog, does it? Real bully, eh!


I did see that episode, you're talking about the one with the viszla, right? When I saw him do that I recognized it immediately as something that Suzanne Clothier suggests. I don't recall if it was in her book or one of her online articles, or she spoke about it at the seminar I went to a couple of years ago. Perhaps he learned it from her?


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## Cassidy's Mom

Speaking of Suzanne Clothier, I just wanted to post a link to one of wonderful articles that I think is brilliant: Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh?

This was something she did speak about quite a bit at her seminar.


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## Karin

codmaster said:


> Ceasar doesn't "train" dogs - he rehabilitates extreme cases. if your dog is fearful, etc. then "his method" would be a very different approach than used on a very HA dog who will "come up the leash" at the handler if he feels threatened. there are not many folks who can handle those types of dogs and they need a foreceful pro to do so. until someone has had a dog like that at the end of their very own leash, perhaps it would be the prudent thing to do to stop commenting on someone else's successful approach.


My bad. I thought Cesar was a trainer, not just a "rehabilitator." 

All I'm saying is that I don't think that there is only one "best" way to train/rehabilitate dogs and I think that Cesar sometimes gets it wrong in his approach to rehabilitating certain dogs. That is just my opinion and I have a right to it just like you have a right to yours. And I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I just shared what I heard from the owner of a dog (the husky) that has been very controversial as far as how Cesar handled him. The dog did not do well with the way he handled him. The dog is doing fine now with another owner who is handling him in a different way.

One thing I have learned from this thread is that the people who like Cesar are very loyal to him and very defensive of any criticism of him.


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## Karin

longhairshepmom said:


> Its easy to say the former rescue took the dog back and fixed it. They took it back after someone else fixed it. The tap to the side of the dog is there for all to see, no editing , if anyone can say that was a "viscious kick" then whatever. I bet everything I own that anyone here has tapped their dog harder then that just playing with it. Whether with the side of the foot, or hand, or arm, or whatever.


I don't believe that session with Cesar "fixed" the problem with the husky. I think being back with the original rescuer who knew how to handle the dog is what did it. But that's just my opinion. And I think that many people objected to the choking of the dog much more than the kicking.


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## nitemares

So how would you handle such dog if it happened to you?? it seems we've been going around in circles and going back to the same question of how would you handle it.


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## Cassidy's Mom

nitemares said:


> So how would you handle such dog if it happened to you?? it seems we've been going around in circles and going back to the same question of how would you handle it.


Probably the same way the rescuer who has the husky now has been successfully handling him: 



Karin said:


> And I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I just shared what I heard from the owner of a dog (the husky) that has been very controversial as far as how Cesar handled him. *The dog did not do well with the way he handled him. The dog is doing fine now with another owner who is handling him in a different way.*


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I did see that episode, you're talking about the one with the viszla, right? When I saw him do that I recognized it immediately as something that Suzanne Clothier suggests. I don't recall if it was in her book or one of her online articles, or she spoke about it at the seminar I went to a couple of years ago. *Perhaps he learned it from her?*


Even if true (I suspect VERY unlikely) - does it matter where a trainer/behaviorist// learns anything as long as they can apply an approach that works?

Almost sounds like you are trying to make it sound like a terrible thing that he uses something that you suggest might have learned from someone else. 

Was that your intent or did I just miss your real intent in suggesting that Ceasar learned something from someone else?

But you did admit that Ceasar actually was gentle with a fearful dog and didn't try to "Dominate" the poor subject dog? Right?

Because Suzanne Clothier wouldn't ever try to "dominate" or even "punish" a dog, would she?


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Probably the same way the rescuer who has the husky now has been successfully handling him:


 
And so you wouls also have to wait till after any similar dog was handled by Ceasar then if you would do the same things as that person did after they obtained the dog after Ceasar had completed his work?

Just for the sake of learning how to handle a HA dog, what exactly would you do with a dog that "came up the leash"? 

Or would you just avoid the question by indicating that you would just never have that happen no matter what the dog was like when you took his/her leash?

A couple of instructors in my local obedience club answered that way when they were asked how to handle a handler aggressive dog so we never did find out what to do with such a dog action (or if a really DA dog showed some "displaced aggression" at the handler when he was stopped from acting out toward another close DA dog).


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## Cassidy's Mom

codmaster said:


> Even if true (I suspect VERY unlikely) [why do you consider it VERY unlikely?]- does it matter where a trainer/behaviorist// learns anything as long as they can apply an approach that works?


Not really, as long as it's a good method. But they don't get credit for it AS THEIR IDEA if it's not their idea. They DO get credit for using it vs an outdated and less humane method, such as flooding, which Cesar does do from time to time. He didn't here, so good for him! (BTW, someone at the seminar asked what Suzanne thought about Cesar and she didn't say much, except that flooding was probably her least favorite technique.  )



> Almost sounds like you are trying to make it sound like a terrible thing that he uses something that you suggest might have learned from someone else.
> 
> Was that your intent or did I just miss your real intent in suggesting that Ceasar learned something from someone else?


Nope, not my intent, so apparently you did miss the point. Not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last.  I mean what I say, and I say what I mean, nothing more, nothing less, so please don't try to put words in my mouth or bother digging for hidden meanings. There aren't any. :shrug:



> But you did admit that Ceasar actually was gentle with a fearful dog and didn't try to "Dominate" the poor subject dog? Right?


I didn't "admit" anything, I've never said that Cesar is hasn't ever been gentle with a fearful dog, so there's really nothing to admit. It was just a comment that I knew about that technique from another source and that Cesar did not invent it. 



> Because Suzanne Clothier wouldn't ever try to "dominate" or even "punish" a dog, would she?


Dominate, no. Punish, yes. Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - LESSONS FROM THE MASTERS: Learning About Punishment from Dogs Themselves


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## Cassidy's Mom

codmaster said:


> And so you wouls also have to wait till after any similar dog was handled by Ceasar then if you would do the same things as that person did after they obtained the dog after Ceasar had completed his work?


:rofl: That is so convoluted that I don't even know what it means!


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## Ucdcrush

Karin said:


> The dog did not do well with the way he handled him.


Shadow walking calmly with other dogs on the dog whisperer show = not doing well? No one seems to be able to answer that. I suppose a criticism could be the the dog was traumatized or injured, but that doesn't seem to be the case.



Karin said:


> The dog is doing fine now with another owner who is handling him in a different way.


That is good supplemental information to have but it's not relevant. Everyone knows there are many ways to handle dogs that can be successful, no one has claimed otherwise. When you make a series of statements like you have above, it appears as if you're saying that Cesar's methods didn't work, and other methods are working. But the truth is that both ways worked.

Yet people say X method is "better" or "worse" than Y method, it seems odd to say that when the result is the same or similar. And those that criticize CM always talk about how wrong he is, how there are better ways, etc. What's the point of the criticism?

That is all I'm "defending" when it appears I am defending Cesar -- criticism of a method that works.

And I know there are people who watch that video and interpret it as abuse and kicking. We all have our opinions. It makes sense that if people DO interpret the video that way, they would be critical of Cesar's method despite the results he gets.


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## Karin

Ucdcrush said:


> Shadow walking calmly with other dogs on the dog whisperer show = not doing well? No one seems to be able to answer that. I suppose a criticism could be the the dog was traumatized or injured, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> That is good supplemental information to have but it's not relevant. Everyone knows there are many ways to handle dogs that can be successful, no one has claimed otherwise. When you make a series of statements like you have above, it appears as if you're saying that Cesar's methods didn't work, and other methods are working. But the truth is that both ways worked.
> 
> Yet people say X method is "better" or "worse" than Y method, it seems odd to say that when the result is the same or similar. And those that criticize CM always talk about how wrong he is, how there are better ways, etc. What's the point of the criticism?
> 
> That is all I'm "defending" when it appears I am defending Cesar -- criticism of a method that works.
> 
> And I know there are people who watch that video and interpret it as abuse and kicking. We all have our opinions. It makes sense that if people DO interpret the video that way, they would be critical of Cesar's method despite the results he gets.


Yes, we are definitely entitled to our own opinions, and my opinion is that the kicking and choking that you see in the video did not work for this dog (heck, I can guarantee that it wouldn't work for my dog, who is also dog reactive). Shadow was probably so afraid of Cesar at that point that the other dogs were the last thing on his mind. And I think that the fact that Shadow is doing great now is totally relevant.

I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't have to prove anything (or explain every nuance of why I feel the way I do) to anyone in order to justify my having a differing opinion than yours on the matter.


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## GSKnight

please.... can't we "catfish" this thread?


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## GregK

studio1one said:


> Cesar Millan "The Dog Whisperer" strangles dog. Training? - YouTube


 
2 things that stand right out.

He has no working relationship with the dog. That’s very important when working with a dog - especially an aggressive reactive dog! If he had that working relationship the dog wouldn’t have redirected on him like that and he wouldn’t have had to practically *asphyxiate* the poor dog*.*　

The second thing which would be part of the working relationship - eye contact. I would have a dog like that burning a hole through my head his eye contact would be so intense! This is *so* import to have with your dog - again, especially an aggressive reactive dog or any kind of reactive dog! 

The eye contact would be on cue and the second the husky eyeballed the other dog Cesar could have used that cue instead of that ridiculous ‘Shhhhhhhhhtttt’ and a kick to the stomach.


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