# E-collars, is it cheating?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Was watching some very impressive work recently at a club when I heard somebody from the side grumble "I'd like to see him do that without the e-collar".
So I asked the guy what he meant, he said that e-collars are cheating and a shortcut and a hundred years ago they would get the same behaviors without the use of them. Personally I see them as a technological advancement, like computers and cars and such where we no longer have to count on our hands and ride horse and buggy's. 
I told a trainer about this and he said that while he uses e-collars he also kind of sees it as a shortcut because dog training is an art, and some of the best trainers in the world don't need them. 
What do you guys think?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, you don't need them. And, I think training is a journey. And the reward is not a passed trial or a blue ribbon, but a dog that can reliably follow commands after years of not training them. The reward is a bond between the dog and the owner. I don't like taking shortcuts to get from here to there, because the process is its own reward and the cementing of the behavior. 

And I personally feel that we are asking a critter to do what the human wants to live with humans in a way appropriate to a human's lifestyle, or to work with humans. This shouldn't be done by a fear of a correction -- dogs do not like being shocked. Neither do I. An electric wire -- electric fence that the dog can see, he learns that it isn't pleasant to touch that and he won't. That at least is fair. The dog learns the boundary, can see it, and can avoid it if he chooses. An e-collar is on their neck and they cannot avoid shocks unless they figure out what you want and what you don't want. And then, they do it to avoid unpleasantness, instead of doing what you do want because you know how to motivate the dog. 

Yeah, I really don't like prong collars either. I don't like and won't use either. My choice. I will not support a ban of either. I just see them as unnecessary, and in some cases counter-productive.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I use an ecollar for remote type correction...blind searches and out when a line is not long enough during the protection phase of IPO . Communication instead of verbal. It does not have to be harsh, but just a nick to remind. If you go over the dogs threshold it is just as bad as yelling, yelling when a whisper can do the same and get results.

But, my dog learned early on so the collar was faded quickly. And NO I didn't just put it on him willy nilly and push the button. He was trained to it by teaching place, directional type obedience and it benefitted our whole training program. 

I see nothing wrong with using it, it is black and white to the dog, no nagging or emotion is included. But it has to be used fairly and with excellent timing.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

selzer said:


> No, you don't need them. And, I think training is a journey. And the reward is not a passed trial or a blue ribbon, but a dog that can reliably follow commands after years of not training them. The reward is a bond between the dog and the owner. I don't like taking shortcuts to get from here to there, because the process is its own reward and the cementing of the behavior.
> 
> And I personally feel that we are asking a critter to do what the human wants to live with humans in a way appropriate to a human's lifestyle, or to work with humans. This shouldn't be done by a fear of a correction -- dogs do not like being shocked. Neither do I. An electric wire -- electric fence that the dog can see, he learns that it isn't pleasant to touch that and he won't. That at least is fair. The dog learns the boundary, can see it, and can avoid it if he chooses. An e-collar is on their neck and they cannot avoid shocks unless they figure out what you want and what you don't want. And then, they do it to avoid unpleasantness, instead of doing what you do want because you know how to motivate the dog.
> 
> Yeah, I really don't like prong collars either. I don't like and won't use either. My choice. I will not support a ban of either. I just see them as unnecessary, and in some cases counter-productive.


I'm not supporting the use of them, but I don't think you really understand how they work. It doesn't really shock them on the lowest setting, it's more of a vibration or a "buzz" to snap them out it. They should be only used as the last resort when the dog already knows the command, and is not responding to traditional corrections. Some trainers don't feed their dogs for 2 days to get them to comply, what's worse?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It is another way of speaking to the dog. Each tool has a purpose but the end goal should be to get the dog off the tools and working with its owner or handler. No tool is perfect and none are as bad as the critics say. A very good handler won't need those tools for obedience, but for off leash and distance work, maybe. Or to undo bad habits which a dog has been taught.


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds really took the words out of my mouth. And I do agree with Selzer that training is a journey, too. I don't think everyone can take the same approach, so I don't look at using different tools to get a desired result as cheating when all trainers do have access to them. It's a personal choice to use them, and people are welcome to train without needing one. But I wouldn't condemn someone for having a perfectly trained dog just because I see an e-collar on them in a training session. So long as the dog's overall health and mental well being is the utmost importance, then I'm fine with most training methods. It's when the result of training trumps the health and well being of a dog that I get my knickers in a knot.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I'm not supporting the use of them, but I don't think you really understand how they work. It doesn't really shock them on the lowest setting, it's more of a vibration or a "buzz" to snap them out it. They should be only used as the last resort when the dog already knows the command, and is not responding to traditional corrections. Some trainers don't feed their dogs for 2 days to get them to comply, what's worse?


Actually, that's not true. There are separate functions on many ecollars that offer a vibrate setting. But a low stim is still a stim. Also, I wouldn't say they are a "last resort." They have many uses. They can be used for distance work, proofing, or simply because a dog responds better to that particular tool than others. The important thing is that the dog is properly taught what the ecollar correction means.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had a trainer teach me how to use the ecollar. We had used it sheep herding on the get outs. The ecollar has as allowed me to have Max who has a high prey drive off leash on certain occasions and places and to keep him safe as I can with giving him some freedom. Presently I don't even need to use it but only serves as back up. He has now ignored cats/ deer all off leash without using the ecollar.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> Actually, that's not true. There are separate functions on many ecollars that offer a vibrate setting. But a low stim is still a stim. Also, I wouldn't say they are a "last resort." They have many uses. They can be used for distance work, proofing, or simply because a dog responds better to that particular tool than others. The important thing is that the dog is properly taught what the ecollar correction means.


I think of the lowest setting as the vibrate function, not the lowest shock setting. The question is, is it cheating because back in the day trainers would get the same behavior through other means? I think it's more humane in a lot of ways than popping the prong collar, lord knows what they did a hundred years ago to get their dogs to comply but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I think of the lowest setting as the vibrate function, not the lowest shock setting. The question is, is it cheating because back in the day trainers would get the same behavior through other means? I think it's more humane in a lot of ways than popping the prong collar, lord knows what they did a hundred years ago to get their dogs to comply but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.


The vibrate fuction should definitely not be seen as a lower correction than a stim. Some dogs cannot grasp what a vibration means. I've seen it completely shut a dog down. An actual low stim on the same dog gets the point across in a clear, very black and white way. 

And to answer your original question, no I don't think it's cheating to use an ecollar. If it's cheating to use an ecollar, then it's cheating to use a prong, or a slip lead or any other tools you have. Doesn't matter that it's a newer tool than some of the others.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

My dogs get freaked out by the vibrate mode. Low stim they do fine with. Bit they have been taught how to shut the stim off. 
Definitely more humane than hanging a dog or kicking the crap out of the dog to get it to comply or because it messed up. So if it is cheating I'll just have to be OK with that.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Guy sounds like an idiot. It's like watching someone clear rubble with a bulldozer and calling it cheating because back in the day you used to have to clear it by hand. If you have the tools why not use them?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I personally think E Collars are indispensable for doing the specific things that an E Collar can do that no human or other tool can do.

Such as:
making it possible to reach out and touch your dog at a distance larger than you can physically do so. Dogs know when they are on a long line, some more than others. So for being able to give your dog physical communication, maybe a correction, at a distance or when they know they are not on a leash or long line

Getting the attention of a deaf dog

Leveling the playing field if the owner is not physically able to handle their own dog because it is too powerful and owner has a disability or is a senior, the e collar can potentially make it possible for them to get control of their dog without having to have the physical ability (sure maybe they shouldn't own that dog but assume they already do)

Dogs that have trachea damage from pulling or from being tied out and choke/hack constantly/easily to the very slightest pressure on a collar of any type. These dogs can be taught proper leash manners with no further pressure and choking. 

Dogtra is the only brand I have ever used so I will only say this about Dogtras but my feeling is that there are so many levels and the low levels are so low, that you really can consider it to be a "touch" like the touch of your hand or leash and you can use it as gently or as not gently as you need to to suit the dog.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> Guy sounds like an idiot. It's like watching someone clear rubble with a bulldozer and calling it cheating because back in the day you used to have to clear it by hand. If you have the tools why not use them?



Best answer in this thread!!!!


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Baillif said:


> Guy sounds like an idiot. It's like watching someone clear rubble with a bulldozer and calling it cheating because back in the day you used to have to clear it by hand. If you have the tools why not use them?



But if someone can achieve the task without one, do you consider him a better trainer?


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Julian G said:


> But if someone can achieve the task without one, do you consider him a better trainer?


The better trainer is the one who can use the tools he has available to get the result he/she wants in the shortest amount of time that causes the least amount of stress and conflict in the dog.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A more well rounded one perhaps. IMO the tools used are a fairly minor consideration when evaluating the skill of a trainer.

The ability to communicate clearly, to teach clearly, to establish and maintain criteria clearly and consistently, good mechanics and timing. 

All of that is more important than whether or not you are using a tool and perhaps it's use has become a crutch.

Either way it is some catty crap sport trainers get into. You see someone with a nice dog and it's blasting a routine? Props! Good to see! Be happy for them and be happy for the dog. Don't be sniping them with snide comments.

If you catch me talking trash about someone training on a field it will be because the trainer is being super unfair to the dog, inconsistent, or abusive. I won't be crap talking someone getting it done.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Valuable tool for real world obedience.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Julian G said:


> But if someone can achieve the task without one, do you consider him a better trainer?


Personally I don't consider them a better trainer. Everybody has their own methods they like to use. And can the trainer get the same result with every single dog or just some dogs without using devices? If using an e-collar is cheating so is using a collar, leash, prong, harness, whistle, fence, ect. I can keep my dog in my yard without the use of a fence, does that make me a better trainer than somebody who uses a fence to keep their dogs in their yard? Short answer is no it does not.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Julian G said:


> I'm not supporting the use of them, but I don't think you really understand how they work. It doesn't really shock them on the lowest setting, it's more of a vibration or a "buzz" to snap them out it. They should be only used as the last resort when the dog already knows the command, and is not responding to traditional corrections. *Some trainers don't feed their dogs for 2 days to get them to comply, what's worse?*




I understand how they work. 

Bolded: This is not a good argument. It is counter-productive. Saying, "well, it's better than starving the dog to get it to work for food" when most people who wouldn't use an e-collar wouldn't starve their dog either. It's like saying shop-lifting what you want is better than clobbering a little old lady and stealing her purse to get the money. If there is nothing wrong with using an e-collar to get the results you want, than why would you compare it with starving a dog for two days?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use low stim on my dog. I just held the settings I use on him on my hand until the time turned it off. There was no pain. When electric is trained correctly, it's like talking to your dog. 

Low stim...there is no need to light a dog up when the training is there and they fully understand what the signal means.

If the dog has the proper drive, thru genetics and training, then again...zero need to light them up and cause pain.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think it's cheating, although I seldom use it anymore. But I also seldom use a pinch collar anymore, but only fur saver for obedience. You use the best tool for the dog and the best tool for the owner/handler. So it may be remote, or pinch, or choke, or fur saver.....no right answer.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Getting the attention of a deaf dog


Yeah ... I'm struggling with that one. I'm considering a rescue "Boxer" I see one that looks just like my baby girl. But she's deaf, I'd have to use a E-Collar to keep her safe. 

As I understand the fastest and most humane way to train a dog ... is with the proper use of an E-Collar. 

But I'm kinda pig headed and don't wanna change from SLL only. It's a dilemma ... I'd have to learn new stuff and an E-Collar remote would be more "crap" that'd I have to take with me on an outing.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kazel said:


> I can keep my dog in my yard without the use of a fence, does that make me a better trainer than somebody who uses a fence to keep their dogs in their yard? Short answer is no it does not.


LOL ... and I was gonna say yes it does.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> I think of the lowest setting as the vibrate function, not the lowest shock setting. The question is, is it cheating because back in the day trainers would get the same behavior through other means? I think it's more humane in a lot of ways than popping the prong collar, lord knows what they did a hundred years ago to get their dogs to comply but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.


Why do you think that? There are separate settings for stims and for vibrations. A vibration setting is not a stim. The electronic box vibrates but there is no shock. The shock setting doesn't vibrate. They are used for different purposes. There are also collars with sounds, so you can sound train a dog and never use the stim.

If you don't want to believe me, read this

http://www.gundogsupply.com/dog-training-collars-6.html

From the article

Do not confuse "tone" with the "beeper" feature in many of the collars. "Tone" is a quiet sound that can only be heard close to the collar. A "beeper" is used to locate a bird dog. They are very loud and can be heard as far as 400 yards away.

*If you want a non-stimulation warning feature on your collar, I recommend that you look at vibration.* It will not cause problems with other dogs and outside sources (telephone, pagers, cars, or microwave ovens) will not duplicate this feature.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'll teach at low stim or teach with baggy prong collar work till they get it and then high stim or higher level correction with prong to punish non compliance or error. What I have found with my own dogs is that they become more sensitive over time and my corrections end up very effective even at some old nag teaching levels as time goes on. Crank almost always gets slap on the wrist style corrections and it is now more effective than a higher level one because it preserves the dog's ability to train longer. This isn't the case for every behavior he has but almost all. When I start to see it I adapt. I don't one size fits all correct dogs I read them for it.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Yeah ... I'm struggling with that one. I'm considering a rescue "Boxer" I see one that looks just like my baby girl. But she's deaf, I'd have to use a E-Collar to keep her safe.
> 
> As I understand the fastest and most humane way to train a dog ... is with the proper use of an E-Collar.
> 
> But I'm kinda pig headed and don't wanna change from SLL only. It's a dilemma ... I'd have to learn new stuff and an E-Collar remote would be more "crap" that'd I have to take with me on an outing.


Chip if your dog is on a leash anyway then I wouldn't see the need for the remote collar. You could just wiggle the leash to tap on the dog's shoulder to get them to look at you in order to give a hand signal command.

There are these type of collars:
Dogwidgets DW-14 Dog Training Collar With Remote Vibration Only Collar - Dog Shock Collar E Collar

I've never used one, but if training a deaf dog I might be tempted. Just as a cue to get the dog to pick their head up and look for you in order to use hand signals if they are not connected to you

But I'd probably be more inclined to just use the vibe on a dogtra since their product quality is better. Although the vibe on the Arc seems pitiful compared to the old collars.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Chip if your dog is on a leash anyway then I wouldn't see the need for the remote collar. You could just wiggle the leash to tap on the dog's shoulder to get them to look at you in order to give a hand signal command.
> 
> There are these type of collars:
> Dogwidgets DW-14 Dog Training Collar With Remote Vibration Only Collar - Dog Shock Collar E Collar
> ...


No ... have not got one yet. I want another "White Boxer" and every time I see a good prospect ... she seems to be deaf?? 

If I got a puppy and she turned out to be deaf ... that's one thing ... I could deal. But to actively take in a deaf Boxer??? Is quite another thing ... I don't know that I could keep her safe??? I've lost one Boxer pup ... before I even got a chance to know her ... one week Parvo took her out. And a Boxer/(Breed that shall not be mentioned) way too young. Apparently that particular blend creates a dog that is smarter than either "Breed???" I thought Stewie understood more than he did ... it ended badly.  

The loss of "Stewie" Boxer/Mix through a failure in training ... absolutely crushed me! And sadly Heidi ... was the hope for recovery ... that did not work out so well. That lost was not my fault but still ... 

Everything I know currently, that can keep my dogs safe ... depends on there ability to hear. I understand that and giving that up ... and learning, understanding the proper use of a new tool?? Would put me pretty much back at square one ... ie "JQP." But if I messed up the cost could be my dog's life?? So for me acquiring, a deaf Boxer ... is not a choice I'd take lightly. 

It's pretty much that simple ... the one I saw looks just like my Struddell. But she can't hear.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not a fan. I have used a electric fence and watched how dogs will run up to the wire put the brakes on look for the wire, and then stop their progress short of it because they do not want to get zapped. 

In eight weeks I trained a young adult dog from pulling me all over to being able to pass a CD, and that training stayed with her her whole life. No e-collars, no prong collars, no clickers, no treats. It isn't rocket science to train a dog. She took 1st place on every one of her legs to. 

I'm sorry, but you can't convince me the gadgets are necessary. I've probably trained a couple more dogs than you have. But whatever. Have a great day, and I didn't "cry" like it was a torture device. You asked for opinions, I gave mine. I did not say anyone cheated. I just don't see the need.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I am not a fan. I have used a electric fence and watched how dogs will run up to the wire put the brakes on look for the wire, and then stop their progress short of it because they do not want to get zapped.
> 
> In eight weeks I trained a young adult dog from pulling me all over to being able to pass a CD, and that training stayed with her her whole life. No e-collars, no prong collars, no clickers, no treats. It isn't rocket science to train a dog. She took 1st place on every one of her legs to.
> 
> I'm sorry, but you can't convince me the gadgets are necessary. I've probably trained a couple more dogs than you have. But whatever. Have a great day, and I didn't "cry" like it was a torture device. You asked for opinions, I gave mine. I did not say anyone cheated. I just don't see the need.


I don't think e collars are necessary to get a dog to qualify in novice obedience either. I was going to start my boy in it this year but decided to finish with rally first because we are just doing too many things and I can't keep up.

But we were doing all the novice stuff and I don't know what you'd want an e collar for. 

But I also think the comparison of an e collar to hot wire (are you talking about hot wire or are you talking about an invisible fence) is limited. Even in training my young dog not to chase deer I never used a level anywhere near like what hotwire or an invisible fence is like. That's the big thing. A decent e collar doesn't have to mean you are being heavy handed. You can actually be pretty delicate about it.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@selzer this is an honest question, how often are your dogs offleash in wilderness areas? Because sometimes the need is the lifestyle or environment you live in.

I live on the edge of a national forest and hike with my dogs offleash daily. Sometimes the deer are thick as thieves up there, and who knows what else we might run into. Moose fight back.

That's hands down the biggest "need" I have for an e collar, is to let my dogs know the same rules apply and I can enforce them however far you are from me, or however many deer just sprang out in front of us


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @selzer this is an honest question, how often are your dogs offleash in wilderness areas? Because sometimes the need is the lifestyle or environment you live in.
> 
> I live on the edge of a national forest and hike with my dogs offleash daily. Sometimes the deer are thick as thieves up there, and who knows what else we might run into. Moose fight back.
> 
> That's hands down the biggest "need" I have for an e collar, is to let my dogs know the same rules apply and I can enforce them however far you are from me, or however many deer just sprang out in front of us


I don't use an ecollar yet. I've called my dog off of turkey, deer and deer carcasses. 
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just feel an ecollar is one way to get towards a goal.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @*selzer* this is an honest question, how often are your dogs offleash in wilderness areas? Because sometimes the need is the lifestyle or environment you live in.
> 
> I live on the edge of a national forest and hike with my dogs offleash daily. Sometimes the deer are thick as thieves up there, and who knows what else we might run into. Moose fight back.
> 
> That's hands down the biggest "need" I have for an e collar, is to let my dogs know the same rules apply and I can enforce them however far you are from me, or however many deer just sprang out in front of us


It's not only useful in the wilderness, but in the middle of a big city with thousands of distractions and possible hazards encountered daily. Almost all KNPV trainers use e collars now because they are training the dogs for LE and they have no time to screw around. Their dogs are a handful to say the least and still have to walk a tight-rope to be a police dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cloudpump said:


> I don't use an ecollar yet. I've called my dog off of turkey, deer and deer carcasses.
> I'm not saying you're wrong. Just feel an ecollar is one way to get towards a goal.


Hey more power to ya. 

I thought I finally had that dog in my youngster. Called him off 4 deer in a row (over a span of maybe 2 weeks). I thought he'd be the one who didn't need an e collar. It was number 5 when he blew me off. 

I never probably would have touched an e collar if it weren't for my killer dog. But once I saw what I could do with it, now it's just a default proofing tool.

Maybe you're better at training dogs than I am. I don't mean that in a snarky way.

I can honestly say that I don't know another way I'd feel comfortable running 3 GSDs offleash together in the mountains (now there are only 2) The boy had a pretty darn good recall, he was over a year old and on his 5th deer before it ever failed


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hey more power to ya.
> 
> I thought I finally had that dog in my youngster. Called him off 4 deer in a row (over a span of maybe 2 weeks). I thought he'd be the one who didn't need an e collar. It was number 5 when he blew me off.
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm a better trainer by a long shot. Lol. I think it might be the difference in the dog. They are all different.


----------



## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

A hundred years ago 99% of us would probably not be doing IPO or any dog sports for that matter so I dont think you can really compare modern training to training 100 years ago. Also the dog training will eventually have to perform that task without an e collar when he trials so the whole idea is to eventually be able to do that without the e collar.
I do not use an e collar for IPO training but know many people who do and they seem to have good results and a good bond with their dogs. I do have one for my dog with a GPS collar when we are hunting or in areas away from home as last resort. My dog has a very reliable recall but when I'm in a wilderness area sometimes 2000+ miles away from home, miles from a dirt road, and no cell reception I dont trust it 100%. Call me paranoid but I want a back up incase she decides not to listen that one time. 

Is it a shortcut? I guess so but would not call it cheating. Just another tool people can use to train their dogs. 
If people feel that way about an e collar what makes it any different from a prong collar? Dont think they had them 100 years ago either. And they sure dont feel good to the dog. Correct me if I'm wrong but I dont think anyone has successfully trained a dog in IPO or protection sports without some from of physical corrections using some kind of tool so I guess we are all cheaters in this guys mind.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hey more power to ya.
> 
> I thought I finally had that dog in my youngster. Called him off 4 deer in a row (over a span of maybe 2 weeks). I thought he'd be the one who didn't need an e collar. It was number 5 when he blew me off.
> 
> ...


Completely agree!
My last four dogs I was fortunate enough to be able to call off of any critters.They would give an initial rush which was always enough to satisfy the chase urges,but always stopped with a Leave It!Now with Samson and Misty it's about 90%.They need their e collars.

They are trained to stop and recall with a whistle but for those occasional times when that chase drive is overwhelming the collars are insurance.A little nick which is no more harsh then a jolt of static electricity like we have all experienced during the winter months in a dry house.Anyone out walking with me wouldn't be able to discern they had even been stimmed.It's just enough to startle them out of drive and obey the whistle.

IMO it's the most humane and effective way to allow them freedom.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @*selzer* this is an honest question, how often are your dogs offleash in wilderness areas? Because sometimes the need is the lifestyle or environment you live in.
> 
> I live on the edge of a national forest and hike with my dogs offleash daily. Sometimes the deer are thick as thieves up there, and who knows what else we might run into. Moose fight back.
> 
> That's hands down the biggest "need" I have for an e collar, is to let my dogs know the same rules apply and I can enforce them however far you are from me, or however many deer just sprang out in front of us


Well, I don't really know about wilderness. I have a river out back and county property beyond that, and whenever I open my gate, like to take a dog to the car, they could scamper down into the woods. They don't though. Also, I have taken dogs on off-leash walks through the village here, and used no leash on Babs in Cleveland. They are trained. No e-collar. We've kicked up bunnies and deer and suicidal squirrels, and I've only had to call them to heel, and they were right back with me. (I do not require a constant heel, on lead or off. But if I call to heel then they must be right there. The suicidal squirrel happened when the dog was preceding the stroller with two girls in it, and two more small girls with me, and we were following the off-lead dog to the play ground in town. The squirrel came across the street toward us, and the dog just started to go after and I called her to heel and she came right to my heel. That is what I knew would happen.

More than one of my dogs kicked up deer at my sister's place. The vermin are everywhere. She lives up against a national forest or game reserve. I just tell them to LEAVE IT, or call them to heel, and they do. 

Frankly, the reason so many people have problems with training, is not that they aren't using the right tools. It is because they are sloppy. Their timing is poor, and they reward late or not at all. They fail to follow through. You foolishly tell the dog to COME when he is playing with another dog and half-trained, and he doesn't come, and so you say, Fine, stay out there. FAIL. You have just taught the dog that COME is optional. The same is true with corrections. They set up the dog to fail, the dog fails, they correct, fine. But the correction rarely meets the need. They are either annoying, half-hearted, ill-timed jerks, or they are applied to dogs that have not yet been trained -- unreasonable expectations. 

There may be a few legitimate reasons for e-collars. I never thought about deaf dogs. I just thought people used hand signals with them. But maybe an e-collar would be a tool that would improve communication with a deaf dog.


----------

