# What's considered a good home for a dog



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I didn't want to derail the 'papered vs non-papered' thread so I'm starting a new one. 

Selzer said (but it's the opinion of many people) that puppy mill and BYB dogs don't go to the best homes. 

I disagree, I consider my home is a very good home for a dog but maybe my criteria is wrong. 

So I was wondering what to you means a 'good home'. 

If I do meet the criteria I will explain to you how it's possible for those dogs to go to a good home. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Hoo boy, this topic's gonna be a super minefield of fun. But sure, I've got some time and a flame-retardant suit that hasn't seen much use for a while, so I'll jump in. 

Let me open by saying that I largely agree with selzer's point: in my opinion, the _best_ homes are very knowledgeable about dogs, and people who are very knowledgeable about dogs do not, by and large, make a habit of buying BYB/puppy mill dogs. They will either adopt a dog from a shelter or rescue (or keep one of their own foster dogs) or they will purchase a dog from a really good breeder whose ethics are in line with their own and whose breeding program is producing the type of dogs they want.

There are some fuzzy gray-area exceptions at the margins, but as a rule of thumb, I think it's true enough that a "we love our family pet so much"-type BYB is not going to be able to count on placing 6 or 10 puppies to such homes, whereas a great, proven breeder can.

I'll try to use a non-GSD breeder to (hopefully) make my point without stepping on any forum members' toes: Coppertop Golden Retrievers 

Look at the alphabet soup of titles on their dogs... and then look at the alphabet soup on the litters they produce: Coppertop Kids

That is a top competition breeder placing dogs in _insanely_ good competition homes (and the very occasional family pet). Those extremely knowledgeable homes are largely closed off to BYB dogs.

Does that mean that BYB dogs can't go to _good_ homes? No. Not at all. Most of them do. For all the tales of doom and woe you might hear about on this board, the truth is that most of them wind up being loved and loving family companions. They are cherished by their owners and they live safe, comfortable, happy lives.

But they're not going to go out there and set the world on fire, even if they have the potential to do so. Their prospects are limited before they're even born.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I think there could be many definitions of a good home. I also don't agree that puppy mill and BYB dogs often go to bad homes. Below I will list some qualities a good home will possess. 

Loving environment
Appropriate vet care
Reasonable exercise
Safe environment (fenced in yard if necessary, no toxic materials left within reach..)
Boundaries set

The things listed above would make for a good home. I provide all of these things for my dogs. I got Dakota from a garage sale, Ditto from a hobby breeder, Daisy from a neighbor who had an "accidental" litter, and Weegee came from a lesser quality hobby breeder. Of course there are many other things that create a good home, but these are the things that jump out at me initially.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

And now for a follow-up post on the original question for this thread, namely: what makes a good home?

Here's my perspective, which I'll preface by saying that I am not a breeder and don't intend ever to be one, but I _have_ placed a bunch of foster dogs in adoptive homes, so I think I can talk a little about this, if from a slightly different perspective.

My view is that what constitutes a "good home" depends very much on the individual dog.

Some things are pretty basic and universal: a good home will keep the dog physically and psychologically safe; a good home will provide decent food and necessary medical care and lots of attention, positive interaction, and affection; a good home will treat the dog as a cherished family member, train it humanely to have the manners it needs to be a welcome citizen of the world, and exercise its mind and body appropriately. Above all, a good home will love the dog and be responsible for it until the end of a hopefully long and treasured life.

Beyond that, it all comes down to the nebulous art of matchmaking.

A "good home" for a sedate 6-year-old beagle might be with a retired couple of senior citizens. A "good home" for a 6-month-old border collie might be with a 20-something outdoors enthusiast who hikes every weekend and does agility for fun. Once you get beyond the basics, there's no universal rule. It all depends on the individual dog and the individual home and whether their personalities, energy levels, lifestyles and expectations mesh.

Breeders are overwhelmingly concerned with placing young puppies from a large, powerful breed that was originally intended to be (and often still is) a serious working dog. That brings with it a certain set of concerns. A good home for that type of dog should ideally have (or be willing to develop) some level of dog knowledge and handling skill, the patience and reasonable expectations necessary to survive puppy adolescence, and (if the dog is from a line that retains working potential) some plans to involve the dog in a structured activity that will bring out its potential, provide an outlet for its energy, and engage its mind and body.

So that would be my take on it, I suppose. I don't think it's tremendously difficult to find good homes. But I also don't think that was the claim originally being made.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, also, one big huge basic thing that is a total "dur" and I would have included it if it weren't almost 3 am (and yet here I still am, typing like a dummy...): the ethics of it all!

MaggieRoseLee had a really good post covering that in another thread, which I'll just link to here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...7674-health-temperament-myth.html#post4125930

In general, good owners are people who love dogs, and people who love dogs, IF they are educated about the current state of shelter overpopulation, puppy mills, responsible breeders, and all associated issues, will often shy away from giving money to BYBs for the reasons explained in that post.

That knocks out a pretty significant segment of good homes for those dogs. Again, there will be exceptions... but enough to place 6 or 10 puppies?

Anyway that's probably enough blathering from me for a bit.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

a good home for a dog with or without papers from a
mill or a reputable breeder consists of:

> the dog having it's own 25' x 25' room complete with a
40" hd tv.
> silver water and food bowls.
> leash and collar made of imported leather with
gold fittings.
> fed fresh meat, chicken, fish, and fruit that's not
injected with anything.
> trained daily by the countries leading trainer
or trainer's.
> chauffer driven to and from puppy class,
to his or her play area and to the potty area.
> has several hand made beds placed around
the house.
> has a fulltime sitter.

this is a list of a few things a good home provides.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol, my reply is to the post before, not doggie dad's. though my pup has all but the chauffeur and puppy classes. You made me lol


Exactly, that's where I was going with this. Yes, IF they know about BYB, shelters, etc and still choose to support it then maybe their morals can be questioned but it still doesn't mean they can't provide all the love and financial support. 

So based on the criteria above i'd say I'm a good home, probably a very good one. This is my first dog and I didn't know about shelters, BYB and so on. It's possible believe it or not, I barely watch tv, don't read the news and only read about things I'm interested about. If I never got a dog and didn't start researching training - then i'd still didn't know. 

Also, for someone getting the first gsd sometimes BYB is the only way to go. I wouldn't go to a shelter because they neuter (I so wish they didn't because i'd love to help a dog) and a breeder probably wouldn't approve me: I rent an apartment (so no backyard and I don't own), don't have vet references for my cats because I didn't take them to the vet, never had a gsd and so on. 

Also, I'm very impatient. Once I make a decision I must act on it same second. I couldn't wait months for a pup. 

BYB are convenient and cheap. For someone getting their first dog justifying paying over 1k for a pet is not easy. Yeah, once you learn of all the genetic problems you realize why it makes sense but even dogs coming from good breeders have many problems. 

Anyway, what I meant to say was that it's not black and white that these dogs go to bad homes. At least not in my case unless I'm an exception but i'd imagine there are others like me: good pet owners that either choose a BYB or go to one out of ignorance (by the way my dog was from a puppy mill, I'm 99% sure of it). 


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Well I didn't read the other thread so I might miss the mark here but I have four dogs, two are from puppy mills... One I bought from a pet store before I knew better, they 'said' the dogs weren't from puppy mills and I believed them, the other a rescue type situation of puppies pulled from a mill or store. My first dog(who is now almost 10) was from what would be termed here a 'BYB', just people breeding their dogs and selling them for a few hundred bucks. At the time I was really new to dogs, hadn't ever been on a dog forum so I just had no clue what I was doing. My rescue dog has a fair amount of temperament issues and that's about when I learned the importance of a good breeder(got him two years ago).

My pup from the pet store has had just about every health issue known to his breed(Pom) and my BYB dog has some fear aggression issues. So when I was finally able to get my GSD I made it a top priority to find a reputable breeder because I did NOT want similar issues to my other dogs in such a large powerful breed. I know it's not a guarantee but like people say here I wanted to stack the odds in my favor. So far so good, he's had no health issues so far and he has a great temperament, he is my go anywhere do anything dog! :wub:

I think I provide a really good home and I have the full spectrum of dog types... My dogs get the best medical care, good food, lots of attention, we tailor most of our vacations to be dog friendly so we can bring one or two, we do a lot of hiking/outdoor stuff and the dogs comes with, we don't have human children so they are pretty much our main focus and having my GSD with me really helps my anxiety issues so he comes with me everywhere he's allowed. My little BYB 10 y/o Chi/terrier mix is my veteran hiking buddy, she's been hiking all over SoCal, Nevada and Oregon... You'd never be able to tell that she's almost a senior citizen. 

I think a lot of well meaning people who can't necessarily afford $1500-2000 reputable breeder dogs buy puppy mill/BYB dogs without realizing and I would think a fair amount get good homes. But I think probably a lot of people who make spur of the moment dog purchases and then get rid of the dog when it stops being fun or acts up also buy from these places. 

But I think a good home is someone who can afford medical care and food, has the time and drive to care for the dog and put in any training that's needed(the people that don't want to train their dogs themselves makes me cringe a little, my dog and I wouldn't have the bond we do without all the time I've spent just me and him training together), plays with the dog, shows kindness and empathy. All the obvious things... I don't agree with supporting BYB's and puppy mills once you know better though... No not every dog coming out of one is going to be a hot mess but you're still supporting an unethical practice(not talking about small time hobby breeders).


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

One more thing. I hear people say that if people can't spend a lot of money upfront to buy the dog then how will they take care of it?

I got my dog for 300$. In 6months that I had him I spent about 7k and most of it was on unnecessary stuff, 7 leashes, 6 collars, countless toys and treats, pepper spray and police baton to protect him lol and so on. 

So that's not true, people just don't see the need to spend the money to buy the dog (I'm not saying it's right, just stating a fact) but they will then spoil him and take care of all his needs. 

Money is not everything anyway. As long as the dog is loved that's all that matters. Back in the day dogs lived on table scraps and lived until ripe old age. 

I love my dog, I'm obsessed even. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A good home is determined by who receives the dog and not where it came from!


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

A good home for a dog is...When one will love, protect, train, feed and care to their best ability No matter if they live in a cardboard box or a mansion.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

My home!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> A good home is determined by who receives the dog and not where it came from!


This!!! 

There are people that will spend thousands of dollars on a pedigreed dog with 'Great Bloodlines' and 'Several Champions in the pedigree' as a prestige buy, but then the dog lives outside and gets no attention (except for the owner's bragging rights). 

Many people have mutts, BYB dogs, puppy-mill dogs, and receive the best care possible, and are loved and cherished.

Whether a dog gets a good home or not has nothing to do with the dog, and everything to do with the person who has the dog. One way dogs from reputable breeders have an advantage over pet-shop or BYB dogs in going to good homes, is that a reputable breeder will carefully screen the potential owners. Not fool-proof, but better than just handing out pups on the first-come-first-serve basis (and bring your American Express). 

A lot of people are a bit intimidated to go to reputable breeders because of the screening process, and feel they won't measure up because they don't have plans or experience doing SchH or Agility, or SAR, or being active in some working or showing venue, but a good breeder, above and everything, want to place a pup in a home where the dog is going to part of the family, and will be loved and included in everyday family life and activities - and not replaced as soon as it becomes inconvenient, or problems pop up, or the novelty wears off.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Anyway, what I meant to say was that it's not black and white that these dogs go to bad homes.


No, of course not, but that wasn't the argument being made anyway. The point over in the other thread was that these dogs don't go to the _best_ homes. They generally do not go to serious sport, show, or working homes, or to knowledgeable and experienced pet homes.

They might, and often do, go to loving pet owners who aren't familiar with the complicated issues surrounding shelter overpopulation, the health of purebred populations, puppy mills, etc. These are generally not bad homes, and I don't think anyone would say they were.

But even these homes often end up closing their doors to BYBs as they learn more about the world of dogs and reshape their ethics in the light of new knowledge. Look at how many times people post variations of "I got my first dog at a BYB [or pet store, or from the back of a truck parked outside Wal-Mart], and she was a great dog [and/or had a bunch of problems], _but I'll never do that again._"

The argument isn't, and never was, that people who buy BYB dogs can't give those dogs good homes.

The argument is that if you are a prospective breeder with an unpapered dog, you need to be aware that your odds of finding good homes for all your puppies are hampered by the fact that fewer knowledgeable and ethical homes will take your dogs, and sport/show/working homes are not likely to consider them at all. If you really care about the life prospects of the puppies you produce, therefore, this is one of many reasons not to breed carelessly.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> A good home is determined by who receives the dog and not where it came from!


Lol I agree. But that wasn't the argument being made by selzer. She said that anyone knowingly buying from a BYB is a bad home. 

I probably wouldn't be able to go to a BYB now, after everything I know. But I don't want to knock anyone who does. 

As Merciel said, breeders make some people feel intimidated (I know I do).


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Loneforce said:


> A good home for a dog is...When one will love, protect, train, feed and care to their best ability No matter if they live in a cardboard box or a mansion.


Agree!!!! Another thing I was going to ask. It's assumed that a good home will provide necessary medical care. What's necessary? I see people here (and admire them) go to great lengths to save their dogs. I don't know what i'd do if I had to spend 5k to cure him or even just try to cure him with no guarantees. I'm NOT saying I won't, I will probably borrow and do it but I hope I'm never in that situation. 

So what's necessary? I'd imagine everyone has their own criteria there too. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> But I think a good home is someone who can afford medical care and food, has the time and drive to care for the dog and put in any training that's needed(the people that don't want to train their dogs themselves makes me cringe a little, my dog and I wouldn't have the bond we do without all the time I've spent just me and him training together), plays with the dog, shows kindness and empathy. All the obvious things... I don't agree with supporting BYB's and puppy mills once you know better though... No not every dog coming out of one is going to be a hot mess but you're still supporting an unethical practice(not talking about small time hobby breeders).


Few things here. Not everyone has the skill and the patience to train. It's a talent. I don't knock anyone as long as they attempt to make their dog behave themselves. 

I'm so freaking irritated at the park (not a dog park, I hate them) where some owners won't tell their dog not to hump, or even better, brag that their dog is the most dominant one. 

Om#g, really? You need to feel like you have the baddest dog?? 
Anyway, I used to feel bad saying something when I first got my boy, not anymore. I have no problem moving their dog off mine if they don't themselves in a second or two. 

And your second point, yeah, I don't agree either but I won't knock anyone. Shelters are not for everyone and breeders do intimidate people. Besides, there are lots of impulse buyers and what do they do? Some people (me included) can't wait a day, let alone months. 

Impulse buying is not always bad, I impulse buy everything. I just then start researching and make sure I meet my animals needs. 

My daughter brough home a turtle that you buy at the mall for 5 bucks. It's the ones where the seller tells you that they can live their life in the small containers they're sold in and everyone thinks it's a small breed of turtles. Almost all of them end up dying in a few days. 

My turtle has a 'castle' (2 floor aquarium) that I built for her, she/he is a few years old already. 

Just trying to say that all the things you might think are bad are not always bad. 



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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Loneforce said:


> A good home for a dog is...When one will love, protect, train, feed and care to their best ability No matter if they live in a cardboard box or a mansion.


High Five on THAT!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> This!!!
> 
> There are people that will spend thousands of dollars on a pedigreed dog with 'Great Bloodlines' and 'Several Champions in the pedigree' as a prestige buy, but then the dog lives outside and gets no attention (except for the owner's bragging rights).
> 
> ...


Sorry, I thought it was Merciel that said people feel intimidated by breeders and I already mentioned it in a few posts. 
Yes, you're right. I was and am def intimidated, I feel like I'm not good enough 

And I also think that a lot of times shelter mutts and BYB dogs end up I'm much better circumstances than these high class dogs that were bought for the wrong reasons. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Yes, IF they know about BYB, shelters, etc and still choose to support it then maybe their morals can be questioned but it still doesn't mean they can't provide all the love and financial support.


You said you're from Russia - I assume you're now in the US? If so, I'm curious how long you've been here. Did you grow up here from a child, or come here as an adult? The reason I'm wondering is that the whole puppy mill/pet shop may be less of an issue in other countries, or at least less well known in general. It's still hard for me to fathom that very many people in the US are completely unaware of the problem, as it seems very well publicized. Maybe not always, but certainly recently. I know there are still people who may not care that that cute puppy in the window came from horrendous conditions in a puppy mill, or that the "breeder" they got their puppy from is in fact a broker who buys from puppy mills. But for adults who have grown up in the US to be completely unaware of any of this? 

But in any case, I don't think anyone is saying that those people are necessarily bad homes or that they can't be good homes.



> I wouldn't go to a shelter because they neuter (I so wish they didn't because i'd love to help a dog)


You've already mentioned your feeling on speutering animals and that you'd never do it to one of your own. But what would be wrong with adopting a pet from the shelter that had already been spayed or neutered?


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## Alyalanna (May 28, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


Thank you!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

lalachka said:


> I don't know what i'd do if I had to spend 5k to cure him or even just try to cure him with no guarantees. I'm NOT saying I won't, I will probably borrow and do it but I hope I'm never in that situation. http://www.petguide.com/mobile


 Why not to plan ahead and get pet insurance, or start putting money aside for emergency? Good home has to have a head of household with the ability to provide and protect his/her family and property, not only with a lovey heart and ability to cry and ask for sympathy when disaster strikes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> Agree!!!! Another thing I was going to ask. It's assumed that a good home will provide necessary medical care. What's necessary? I see people here (and admire them) go to great lengths to save their dogs. I don't know what i'd do if I had to spend 5k to cure him or even just try to cure him with no guarantees. I'm NOT saying I won't, I will probably borrow and do it but I hope I'm never in that situation.
> 
> So what's necessary? I'd imagine everyone has their own criteria there too.


 It takes almost nothing to rack up thousands in medical bills.

This is ONLY Jax, my $75 pound puppy
Lump removal - $300
ACL diagnosis, xrays, treatment, then surgery and more treatment -$5000
Growth removal from foot -$300
Pulled groin muscles - diagnosis, follow ups, 10-12 laser treatments at @$40 each -$600

That's not taking into consideration regular care, checkups, vaccinations, HW/Tick disease testing OR all the money wrapped up in training.

Btw...I'm still paying off the last $3500 for the ACL from last year


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel said:


> The point over in the other thread was that these dogs don't go to the _best_ homes. They generally do not go to serious sport, show, or working homes, or to knowledgeable and experienced pet homes.


But the idea that they "don't go to the _best _homes" is not necessarily true, either. Of course they can go to the "best" home. Or not. What makes a home "best" has nothing to do with where the dog came from. I have known very knowledgeable owners, competitive in sport already, who allowed themselves to be exposed to pet store puppies and ended up buying out of pity (because they hated the idea of someone ending up with a breed they weren't prepared for, or the puppy was obviously sick; the reasons are as varied as the people). 

The "best" home, the "good" home, is the one that rises to the occasion of living with that dog. IMO, it doesn't have anything to do with being a serious sport or show home. Or being a working home. The dog could not care less about those things. Or being experienced or even knowledgeable prior to buying the dog. It has everything to do with recognizing and addressing the needs of the dog. For companionship and exercise and training, for having a place in the owner's life. 
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> No, of course not, but that wasn't the argument being made anyway. The point over in the other thread was that these dogs don't go to the _best_ homes. They generally do not go to serious sport, show, or working homes, or to knowledgeable and experienced pet homes.
> 
> They might, and often do, go to loving pet owners who aren't familiar with the complicated issues surrounding shelter overpopulation, the health of purebred populations, puppy mills, etc. These are generally not bad homes, and I don't think anyone would say they were.
> 
> ...


Oh, I didn't take it that way. I understand why not to breed carelessly, as a matter of fact, as bad as it sounds, if I bred I wouldn't want to give my pups to most people that would want them. Bias much lol?

Yeah, I guess I get it from the breeder standpoint. I just had a hard time hearing that my doggie is not getting the best care because I bought him from a puppy mill



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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Not everyone has the skill and the patience to train. It's a talent.
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


No. It is a skill and, just like any skill, it can be learned. Some people come to it more naturally than others, but it is a skill that can be learned by anyone.
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I came at 15 and I'm now 39, so 24 years? Lol I manage to live in space and only hear and read about the things I'm interested in. Up until I got my dog - pet problems wasn't one of them. 

It's possible))))


I don't know why, I'm sure I sound like an idiot but there's a reason old wives tales are so hard to die, because it's very hard to get some stupid notion out of your head. 

I feel like neutered animals are not the real thing, like they're altered in a way. I think this came from me seeing all altered cats that did nothing but eat and sit on couches and grew to be so huge that it's scary. 

I see that it might be a different story with dogs, I see them at the park all the time but I can't help myself, I've been living with this thought for at least 15 years. 

I don't pretend to be right on this, so don't jump on me))))) it's just something stuck in my head that I have a hard time getting rid of. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sit said:


> No. It is a skill and, just like any skill, it can be learned. Some people come to it more naturally than others, but it is a skill that can be learned by anyone.
> Sheilah


I don't know lol. I watch Michael Ellis videos and I'm thinking it's a talent. He makes it look so easy but it's not. 

It IS a talent in that there rr many subtleties to it, like the timing, knowing when to stop, knowing how far to push your dog to not disinterest them and so on. 

It's either a talent or it's a skill and I'm extra dumb at learning it lol. 

Put it this way, it's not as easy as you'd think just watching people do it. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Why not to plan ahead and get pet insurance, or start putting money aside for emergency? Good home has to have a head of household with the ability to provide and protect his/her family and property, not only with a lovey heart and ability to cry and ask for sympathy when disaster strikes.


I've been had insurance since i got him but they're not paying like I expected. I spent close to 2k and got back maybe 300$. 

Lots of things are not covered, whatever is covered only a fraction is paid. It's either my vet is overpriced or it's because most of it was wellness and preventive (though I have a wellness plan too) and when it comes to emergencies they actually do pay most of it.
Besides I still have to pay up front and then they reimburse, so is have to borrow no matter what. 

Even if I didn't have insurance, as attached as I am to him I doubt I wouldn't try anything possible to save him. But again, I don't want to find out. 


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

lalachka said:


> ... I spent about 7k and most of it was on unnecessary stuff...


LOL! Thank you so much for that comment  Too funny, and I can relate. Yup, lots of silly stuff here too...ah the joys of doggie consumerism, lol. 
That's going to keep a smile on my face all through my crappy shift tonight, hugs for that! I don't think my co-workers will get it thought, lol. 

IMO, the difference between someone who gets a BYB vs a breeder's puppy is that (really generally speaking here) it's the difference between knowing the breed specifically or just loving that cute little puppy. So when someone who knows the breed goes through the landshark phase, they think it's adorable vs worrying about aggression. And on and on, through all the stages of development. 

So you can still be a good home, as long as you're committed to the dog. But if you've never raised a GSD before, you might not know what you're getting into, and give up too easily. And breeders would have this problem too, only they'd screen out the people who would probably be more suited to a different breed.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Why not to plan ahead and get pet insurance, or start putting money aside for emergency? Good home has to have a head of household with the ability to provide and protect his/her family and property, not only with a lovey heart and ability to cry and ask for sympathy when disaster strikes.


Oh yeah but that's what I meant to say. What's the limit? I'm sure some people say that spending 5k on a dog is over the top. I'm not saying I agree but I do think everyone has their threshold. 

So what's the limit that makes a good home? How much should I be willing to spend to not be labeled a bad home?

I'm asking these questions to try to show that there's not one criteria, there rr different people and different situations. What to one seems reasonable to another might seem outrageous. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Definitely not as easy as it looks if you're watching someone who is very skilled! We've worked with Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel, (they breed working Belgian Malinois), Lisa Maze. The basic concepts of training are fairly simple once you learn them, but that does not mean that it's necessarily "easy". As Lisa put it once "there are a lot of moving parts", lol. 

But I do agree with Sheilah that training is a skill that can be learned. Nobody was born understanding dog behavior or knowing how to train them. Some, like with any skill, be it music or writing or athletics, will have more natural aptitude than others, but those that do not can still learn. It helps if you can work with a skilled trainer, you can learn much from someone who understands all the subtleties, but there's also a wealth of information in books, videos, and online. Even if you don't have access to a good private trainer, or can't afford one (they are usually quite a bit more expensive than a group class), you may still be able to find a good class with an experienced instructor.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> A good home is determined by who receives the dog and not where it came from!


I totally agree. 

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I also wanted to comment that before I joined this forum, I never heard the term back yard breeder. When someone would say their friend's dog had puppies or they found their dog at a fleamarket...I never thought anything of it. I can tell you I sure didn't know anyone who purchased dogs from "reputeable breeders". That much $ and planning wasn't put into it. Granted most people I know get their animals from the Humane Society so the topic of breeding has never been in my circles. Most of my friends and family provide good homes...some better than others...has nothing to do with their knowledge of breeders or how they obtained them. From what I've learned on this forum, I now understand why back yard breeders and some pet stores are bad. I know what I know now and do spread the word but doesn't mean I'm a better person or provide a better home than when I didn't know it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> LOL! Thank you so much for that comment  Too funny, and I can relate. Yup, lots of silly stuff here too...ah the joys of doggie consumerism, lol.
> That's going to keep a smile on my face all through my crappy shift tonight, hugs for that! I don't think my co-workers will get it thought, lol.
> 
> IMO, the difference between someone who gets a BYB vs a breeder's puppy is that (really generally speaking here) it's the difference between knowing the breed specifically or just loving that cute little puppy. So when someone who knows the breed goes through the landshark phase, they think it's adorable vs worrying about aggression. And on and on, through all the stages of development.
> ...


Lol petco is a setup, it's impossible to walk out of there without close to 100$ worth of junk. And they're 2 blocks away from my job. 

And then there's leerburg, dog.com and who remember what else. 

But yeah I agree. As long as you're committed that's all that matters. I am. I will blame myself before I blame him for anything. 
And I think there's nothing wrong with that attitude, if nothing else it ensures that no stone is left unturned. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Mac's Mom said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> ----------
> I also wanted to comment that before I joined this forum, I never heard the term back yard breeder. When someone would say their friend's dog had puppies or they found their dog at a fleamarket...I never thought anything of it. I can tell you I sure didn't know anyone who purchased dogs from "reputeable breeders". That much $ and planning wasn't put into it. Granted most people I know get their animals from the Humane Society so the topic of breeding has never been in my circles. Most of my friends and family provide good homes...some better than others...has nothing to do with their knowledge of breeders or how they obtained them. From what I've learned on this forum, I now understand why back yard breeders and some pet stores are bad. I know what I know now and do spread the word but doesn't mean I'm a better person or provide a better home than when I didn't know it.


Me neither. Once you start reading up on it it's hard to believe that there are people who still don't know but there are plenty. And you're right about the planning, only on this forum did l learn that people wait weeks and months for their pups. 

I now also spread the word but I don't expect much to come out of it. People have to usually come to things on their own. 


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I feel like neutered animals are not the real thing, like they're altered in a way.
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Wow. That is a pretty rough thought to hold. Do you consider human animals that have been "altered" to be less than the real thing as well? If you don't hold the same idea of "less than" for humans, why not? 

As a "spayed" woman, I certainly don't consider myself less than the real thing. And my neutered male GSD is very much the real thing. 

Can you always tell, just by a cursory look, which dogs have been altered and are less than real because of it? Or do you have to check for a spay scar or the absence of testicles before deciding that they aren't the real thing? I have to say that I have been around dogs longer than you have been alive, and I can't always tell which dogs are altered and which aren't just by looking at them. You know, they don't all get fat and want to sleep all day. I own a very slim, petite cat that was spayed at 5 months. She is 9 years old now, and does like her naps. But she does not fit your physical stereotype of a spayed cat. And I wish my neutered male GSD wanted to lay around and sleep! 
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Definitely not as easy as it looks if you're watching someone who is very skilled! We've worked with Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel, (they breed working Belgian Malinois), Lisa Maze. The basic concepts of training are fairly simple once you learn them, but that does not mean that it's necessarily "easy". As Lisa put it once "there are a lot of moving parts", lol.
> 
> But I do agree with Sheilah that training is a skill that can be learned. Nobody was born understanding dog behavior or knowing how to train them. Some, like with any skill, be it music or writing or athletics, will have more natural aptitude than others, but those that do not can still learn. It helps if you can work with a skilled trainer, you can learn much from someone who understands all the subtleties, but there's also a wealth of information in books, videos, and online. Even if you don't have access to a good private trainer, or can't afford one (they are usually quite a bit more expensive than a group class), you may still be able to find a good class with an experienced instructor.


Lol I wish Michael could come live here for a few weeks or better, months. 

I had 2 private trainers, both were old school and I wasted a few months popping the collar. I only started marker training a little while ago. And I don't like the idea of group training, I will first see what I'm able to do on my own. 
I do see some progress, enough to motivate me. 


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

lalachka said:


> So what's the limit that makes a good home? How much should I be willing to spend to not be labeled a bad home?


 I have an answer to this as well LOL If a good home cannot provide it will find a better home that will. A good owner is realizing his or her own limitations (financial, dog handling, environmental etc) and tries to find a solution with keeping his dog's interested as a priority. Having a dog to deteriorate and live in pain, or become a danger to himself and others only because the home is not willing to spend money is cruelty and yes, a 'bad' home for this particular animal.

PS You need to switch insurance.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> And I don't like the idea of group training....


:thinking: Why not? (You know me - gotta ask, lol.)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

As to talent vs skill re: training, I believe that being able to read a dog is a talent. But this can be learned by spending time with them, and then you can build on the level of skill you develop from there. Just like anything, really. You have to start somewhere


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sit said:


> Wow. That is a pretty rough thought to hold. Do you consider human animals that have been "altered" to be less than the real thing as well? If you don't hold the same idea of "less than" for humans, why not?
> 
> As a "spayed" woman, I certainly don't consider myself less than the real thing. And my neutered male GSD is very much the real thing.
> 
> ...


I did warn that I don't pretend to be right. I realize that it's a sort of wives tale but it's one thing to realize it and another to get rid of it. 

No, I don't think of spayed humans on that way))))) I never even thought to put them in the same line until uu said it. 

I already said that I realized that it's not the same deal with dogs, I see them at the park and I can never tell until I ask. 

But living with the thought of spayed cats blowing up and doing nothing but eating for 15 years made a dent in my head. 


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Re training. There are dogs that do need a handler with advanced skills right of the bat. I used to believe that GSDs are for everyone but not anymore. Just my opinion.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> I have an answer to this as well LOL If a good home cannot provide it will find a better home that will. A good owner is realizing his or her own limitations (financial, dog handling, environmental etc) and tries to find a solution with keeping his dog's interested as a priority. Having a dog to deteriorate and live in pain, or become a danger to himself and others only because the home is not willing to spend money is cruelty and yes, a 'bad' home for this particular animal.
> 
> PS You need to switch insurance.


I'd love to. To what? I have ASPCA now and pay about 60$ a month. Anything better I can get for about the same price?

But as I said, if it ever came down to it I'm sure i'd do whatever it takes. I'm so careful to say it this way because in the past I made statements like 'i'd never...' And then I did. So I now know no one knows what they'd really do in any situation and I'm always careful how I say things so that life doesn't decide to teach me some more lessons. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Re training. There are dogs that do need a handler with advanced skills right of the bat. I used to believe that GSDs are for everyone but not anymore. Just my opinion.


I also don't believe that. Anytime I felt like I was over my head I had a trainer come out. And that's what I will keep doing. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Why not? (You know me - gotta ask, lol.)


Don't ask lol. You might hear something close to my neutering views. 

I'm special is all I'm going to say)))))


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The label "good home" is subjective. Each person is going to see and define it differently. 

To me, it's someone that is dedicated to providing not only the basic necessities of life, food, water, and shelter, but who also includes the dog in their daily life, has concern for their physical and mental well being, and us capable if providing medical care to the best if their ability. 

I think it is unwise to generalize and say you are more likely to find a good home in people buying from a " reputable" breeder than in someone buying from a BYB. Every person has different beliefs, knowledge, and desires for a dog but that does not make them less " qualified". 

Even the most "reputable" breeders make mistakes, have dogs placed in the wrong home, have to take back and rehome dogs, have dogs from their breeding end up in shelters. People can be deceiving, or can deceive themselves into believing they are a good home. Where they get a dog from is irrelevant. 

Working at vet I see lots if good and not so good homes. And there is no correlation between where they bought the dog and how they care for it. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> The label "good home" is subjective. Each person is going to see and define it differently.
> 
> To me, it's someone that is dedicated to providing not only the basic necessities of life, food, water, and shelter, but who also includes the dog in their daily life, has concern for their physical and mental well being, and us capable if providing medical care to the best if their ability.
> 
> ...


I want to sign under every word. Especially the part that people might deceive themselves into thinking they're one. 

Everyone, myself included, will think they're the best home even if they're not. People can't live in mental health knowing that they're bad people so every single person is convinced, sometimes wrongly (possibly me included) that they're the best home and a good person in general. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Don't ask lol. You might hear something close to my neutering views.


Ah, but if you don't have a logical reason for believing something, doesn't really matter what it is, can't you be open to changing your mind?  Challenge yourself!

The way I feel about anything (in general) is that if I can't defend my position logically, based on facts, I suspend forming an opinion on that subject until I can. I'm a bit nerdy that way though. :wild:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh yeah, how could I forget to bring my friend up with a husky from a pet store that's spoon fed because his appetite is not the best. 8 months later they're still spoon feeding. He's on raw now too so she holds the bone in her hand while he nibbles. 
I can go on and on about everything this dog done to their apartment and brand new furniture (huskies are known for it), how he ran away and they ran in the forest for 3 hours looking for him and stuff. 

Why didnt she go to a breeder? She wasn't looking for a dog, she was passing by a pet store and saw him in the window and fell in love. She didn't know about puppy mills but that's not the point. 


There rr too many situations to be able to put them in categories. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Ah, but if you don't have a logical reason for believing something, doesn't really matter what it is, can't you be open to changing your mind?  Challenge yourself!
> 
> The way I feel about anything (in general) is that if I can't defend my position logically, based on facts, I suspend forming an opinion on that subject until I can. I'm a bit nerdy that way though. :wild:


I'm very open to changing my mind, I do it pretty easy and pretty often. The neutering thing is not just about changing my mind, I already understand that neutered dogs look and act the same way, but I can't help the way I feel once I'm thinking of having a neutered dog. 

I can be honest with myself about what goes on in my head and that sometimes I'm being unreasonable, but it's a little harder to act on it. 


As far as classes, I like the one on one setup, that's all. I want to be able to ask 1000 questions and only work on my dog. I don't know how a class can benefit me at this point. Maybe before it could've but by now I know how to train, have the videos that spell it all it out. It's now up to me to go through with the training itself. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


Ah, see, I knew I was going to be stepping in it a bit when I posted that. So, sure, I'll try and defend my reasoning. 

Please note that, at the outset, I didn't say _just_ "show and sport homes." I'm including show, sport, working, and highly experienced/knowledgeable pet homes as all one group for the purposes of this discussion, and that group is: people who know dogs, spend a lot of time around different sorts of dogs, and recognize dogs who can and cannot do whatever their specific area of interest is. Because these people are generally looking for specific things, and know enough to avoid breeders who can't produce those things, they generally do not purchase BYB dogs.

These people also tend to spend a lot of time around other "dog people," which allows for a free and continuing exchange of ideas, methods, standards of care, etc. Whatever their specific area of interest is, they are continuously learning and improving their skills. Generally they have more doggy resources and connections than casual pet owners. They're more experienced handlers and are often able to head off potential problems long before they develop into the sorts of issues that cause less experienced owners to panic or rehome their dogs.

Also, and not insignificantly, the GSD is supposed to be a working breed. These dogs are supposed to want to work. They're supposed to be intelligent, driven, and energetic to _need_ some type of outlet. Homes who can channel those drives into a productive outlet -- whether that's an AKC sport, the IPO field, a "real job" like SAR or police work, or just the level of training, interaction, and exercise that a knowledgeable pet home will be prepared and able to provide -- are, in my opinion, better homes for what this breed is supposed to be.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Lol I agree. But that wasn't the argument being made by selzer. She said that anyone knowingly buying from a BYB is a bad home.


I don't think that's what she meant. I think what she's saying is that BYBs don't screen homes, they will sell to anyone who comes along with the money. So they may sell to good homes, bad homes, and everything in between, depending on who shows up. Whereas, reputable breeders usually do screen people before selling puppies to them, so they won't sell to a home if they don't think it's a good home. 



cliffson1 said:


> Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


I'm confused too... you're saying that the working dogs you've seen come from BYBs?

I hope a pet home isn't any worse than a show/sport home, because I have a "pet" home. I don't really have the wherewithal to pursue titles at this point in my life. I'll never say never, but it doesn't seem likely in the near future.



sit said:


> As a "spayed" woman, I certainly don't consider myself less than the real thing. And my neutered male GSD is very much the real thing.


I'm a "spayed" woman as well, and I don't believe it makes me any less of a person, nor do I believe that spayed/neutered dogs are any less "dog". I've only raised females and I notice no decrease in drive or change in personality after being spayed. The only thing I notice is that they don't go into heat and have those moody "bitchy" periods some bitches go through.



lalachka said:


> But living with the thought of spayed cats blowing up and doing nothing but eating for 15 years made a dent in my head.


You haven't met MY cats! They're all spayed and neutered and they are all quite active and playful. Austin at 15 years of age is sleeping a lot more than he used to, but he's not fat; none of my cats are fat. Spay/neuter doesn't cause obesity. Too much food causes obesity. Spayed/neutered animals have a decreased metabolism, so they don't require as much food. If you keep feeding an altered animal the same as an intact animal, they may gain weight. You just have to monitor intake.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> But the idea that they "don't go to the _best _homes" is not necessarily true, either. Of course they can go to the "best" home. Or not. What makes a home "best" has nothing to do with where the dog came from. I have known very knowledgeable owners, competitive in sport already, who allowed themselves to be exposed to pet store puppies and ended up buying out of pity (because they hated the idea of someone ending up with a breed they weren't prepared for, or the puppy was obviously sick; the reasons are as varied as the people).
> 
> The "best" home, the "good" home, is the one that rises to the occasion of living with that dog. IMO, it doesn't have anything to do with being a serious sport or show home. Or being a working home. The dog could not care less about those things. Or being experienced or even knowledgeable prior to buying the dog. It has everything to do with recognizing and addressing the needs of the dog. For companionship and exercise and training, for having a place in the owner's life.
> Sheilah


Absolutely. I agree with all of this, except for the very minor point that a breeder who is not already familiar with the buyer can take prior serious involvement in some dog-related area as an indicator that this particular home is already some way along in "recognizing and addressing the needs of the dog."

A lot of people who adopt dogs from our rescue say that they "might" be interested in pursuing some sport or work with their dogs down the line. The great majority of these people never actually do it, which is generally not a real problem because most of our dogs are perfectly happy to be house pets and it's not an issue.

On the rare occasion that we have a super high-energy dog who really _needs_ a job, though, and is likely to drive a casual pet owner insane, a person who's already put six agility titles on their previous shelter dog is way ahead of the person who says they might be interested in trying agility maybe. The second person might very well intend to follow through... but the first one's probably a better bet.

There are always exceptions. But when talking about generalities, especially generalities from the perspective of somebody who is thinking about breeding untried and unpapered dogs (which was the original context of this whole issue), IMO it's important to realize that exceptions _are_ exceptions, and you can't count on them being the rule for your whole litter of pups.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> There are people that will spend thousands of dollars on a pedigreed dog with 'Great Bloodlines' and 'Several Champions in the pedigree' as a prestige buy, but then the dog lives outside and gets no attention (except for the owner's bragging rights).


This is how we got our Tasha. Someone spent tons of money on her, left her in the backyard. Her tail got infected, she got snappy because of it so they dumped her at a high kill California shelter.  Rescue got involved, had her tail amputated and now she is the sweetest loving dog. Good with people and other dogs. You couldn't ask for better. People getting papered dogs do not necessarily make better homes!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I already said that I realized that it's not the same deal with dogs, I see them at the park and I can never tell until I ask.
> 
> But living with the thought of spayed cats blowing up and doing nothing but eating for 15 years made a dent in my head.


I am sorry, but that is just silly! You acknowledge that you can't tell the difference visually, and that you have to ask what the animal's reproductive status is, but you still believe something because it stands out in your mind. You know it is not true, but having heard/read it and having it make an impression at that time is too powerful an image to let go of? 

That is like me saying that I heard something once about every Russian immigrant being a KGB spy and it made such an impression that I still believe it. I know that it isn't true, but it made such an impression on me that I can't stop believing it to be true!

Here is the truth: if an altered animal becomes fat after the fact, that has more to do with the management practices of the owner and less about the animal's reproductive status. 
Sheilah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> But living with the thought of spayed cats blowing up and doing nothing but eating for 15 years made a dent in my head.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:thinking: My cat was neutered at roughly 3 months old. He is not fat and plays often. Well "play" is a loose term. He often tries to attack the dogs in a manner that mimics play and they all think he's a lunatic. He's not a great hunter...he tries but he's a miserable failure. It took him 8 years to kill a mouse and he's only getting credit because the dogs can't talk and say whether he did it or they did it.

Obese cats are the result of low quality food with high carb content that they can not process which causes a "hay belly" on them.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel said:


> A lot of people who adopt dogs from our rescue say that they "might" be interested in pursuing some sport or work with their dogs down the line. The great majority of these people never actually do it, which is generally not a real problem because most of our dogs are perfectly happy to be house pets and it's not an issue.


The majority of people purchasing any puppy or dog won't pursue everything they say they are interested in. Shelter, rescue or breeder. This is based on those people who purchase (or adopt) for the general purpose of a pet, and not those that are specifically looking for a certain type or trait to do a specific sport or job with. Those that are specific are much more likely to follow through on their plans. Those that are just generally purchasing are less likely to do so, simply because they go into it with a "whatever, we might just end up taking daily walks" attitude.

The truth of the matter is that no dog cares about whether they are house pets or not. They care about having clear, consistent rules, adequate shelter, food and exercise for their particular needs. They don't care one way or the other how those needs get met (i.e. a working or sport endeavor vs. a strictly pet endeavor). 
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sit said:


> I am sorry, but that is just silly! You acknowledge that you can't tell the difference visually, and that you have to ask what the animal's reproductive status is, but you still believe something because it stands out in your mind. You know it is not true, but having heard/read it and having it make an impression at that time is too powerful an image to let go of?
> 
> That is like me saying that I heard something once about every Russian immigrant being a KGB spy and it made such an impression that I still believe it. I know that it isn't true, but it made such an impression on me that I can't stop believing it to be true!
> 
> ...


I know that it's silly, but I lived with this thought for 15 years and only a few months ago started to realize that this might not be the case. Maybe it will catch up to me after a while but for now that's how I feel. 

I'm not trying to put anyone or their dog down, in case it looks that way. I know that it might sound offensive, I'm just being honest about the way I feel. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Freestep....where do you think working dogs come from?
@ Merciel....I try to look at things from the dog's point of the view. The two things I think this breed likes most is working and engagement with humans. Generally speaking a working dog provides the first(to include training with the working) and pet homes provide the latter. Many, many, sport and show dogs are bought out for training once or twice a week or even if everyday for an hour a day and the rest of the time is crated or kenneled. Now nothing is absolute, and there is always variances( so nobody needs to say there show/sport dog lives in a house), but to think that show/sport life is better than a Pet/working life from a Dog's perspective.....I see it differently.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> :thinking: My cat was neutered at roughly 3 months old. He is not fat and plays often. Well "play" is a loose term. He often tries to attack the dogs in a manner that mimics play and they all think he's a lunatic. He's not a great hunter...he tries but he's a miserable failure. It took him 8 years to kill a mouse and he's only getting credit because the dogs can't talk and say whether he did it or they did it.
> 
> Obese cats are the result of low quality food with high carb content that they can not process which causes a "hay belly" on them.


I'm sure. Somehow it only took me seeing a few cats like that and then someone saying that after you neuter them they lose all their drives except food drive. 

Also, there's a dog at the park whose owner said that it was like a switch turned on, the day she came home after surgery she was eating non stop. Shes not fat at all, she is the fastest dog at the park (cairn terrier). And a few other places I heard it. 

I'm not trying to say I'm right, I'm just explaining where this image of an animal that lost all interest except food is coming from. 

I don't want to stir up any drama and offend anyone. I can stop talking about it. If I had a neutered dog and someone was saying this i'd feel offended so I know how you feel. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> The truth of the matter is that no dog cares about whether they are house pets or not.


Well, no, when you take it that far I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Some dogs do care. If you have a working Lab who's been bred for generations to be a gun dog (as my family's dog was), that dog _absolutely_ cared about going out duck hunting. She loved swimming in the pool, too, but there was no question at all that her preference list went walk < playing fetch in the pool < playing fetch in the lake < actual duck hunting. That dog was happiest working, and nothing else in her life could compare.

I firmly believe that dogs who are bred to work understand work. Can they be happy as pets if they have some other outlet? Sure, no argument there. But do would they be _happier_ doing their jobs? I think that at least some of them would.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> I don't want to stir up any drama and offend anyone. I can stop talking about it. If I had a neutered dog and someone was saying this i'd feel offended so I know how you feel.


Offended? LOL I'm not offended. I'm just stating my experience.

We have 4 spayed females.

Jax at 5 months and very active. She's a maniac - see list of vet costs above!
Sierra at 3 years - no change in her activity level after spay
Banshee at 6 months - She's another maniac but no vet costs due to injury and she's almost 14 yrs old.
Chaos - unknown when spayed. She's supposedly 10 yrs and still wants to play and be active.

As far as the cat and the "hay belly"...I had him on kibble for years before switching to RAW. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the carbs in the kibble are what caused his fat belly and others who have made the change say the same. It's proven that cats on kibble have a higher incidence of diabetes which is why vets are now recommending canned food over kibble due to less carbs and more liquid.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Spaying or neutering an animal does NOT make them gain weight. All of my pets, Except my puppy, are spayed/neutered. They are all thin, well muscled, active and working. Animals get fat due to overeating and lack of excersise. Period. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> The two things I think this breed likes most is working and engagement with humans. Generally speaking a working dog provides the first(to include training with the working) and pet homes provide the latter. Many, many, sport and show dogs are bought out for training once or twice a week or even if everyday for an hour a day and the rest of the time is crated or kenneled. Now nothing is absolute, and there is always variances( so nobody needs to say there show/sport dog lives in a house), but to think that show/sport life is better than a Pet/working life from a Dog's perspective.....I see it differently.


Yep, fair enough. I forgot that it's often the norm in IPO for dogs to be kenneled when not working, and if I had remembered that I would have included a note to cover that.

It is not the norm in other sports for dogs to be kenneled when they aren't being trained or trialed. My obedience instructors have all been adamant that if you want to have a good competition dog, you _must_ have the close bond and relationship that only develops with a dog that you live with and cherish as a companion. All the agility instructors I'm familiar with echo the sentiment: you _must_ have a close, trusting relationship to get the most out of your dog. It's a very different paradigm from what I read about some IPO competitors doing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Offended? LOL I'm not offended. I'm just stating my experience.
> 
> We have 4 spayed females.
> 
> ...


You have a thicker skin than I do then lol. I think i'd be offended if someone said they think all neutered dogs are not the real deal so to speak and I had one. 

I'm going to leave it alone, I know I'm wrong on this so there's no sense to go on about it. I'm sure one day it will click and I will change my mind just as I did on many things before. 




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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I'm confused too... you're saying that the working dogs you've seen come from BYBs?
> 
> I hope a pet home isn't any worse than a show/sport home, because I have a "pet" home. I don't really have the wherewithal to pursue titles at this point in my life. I'll never say never, but it doesn't seem likely in the near future.


I am also not interested in showing or titling at the moment, and perhaps never as I am a bit of a loner, but I consider myself a great pet home as my dog is well fed , trained, his exercise needs are met and he is a cherished part of my family. We spend our weekends hiking, swimming hanging out with family and he is a joyful part of it all.

I don't know if Benny's breeder is a hobby breeder or BYB because I didn't know about responsible breeders vs byb until after I got Benny and found the forum. We also have a dog who is a shelter rescue and another who was adopted from a private owner and all are treated the same

I hope a good breeder would not turn me away because I was not going to show or do sport . Many breeders say they will only sell to working homes and would probably turn me away, although Benny does work at being an active companion.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I don't want to stir up any drama and offend anyone. I can stop talking about it. If I had a neutered dog and someone was saying this i'd feel offended so I know how you feel.





Jax08 said:


> Offended? LOL I'm not offended. I'm just stating my experience.





lalachka said:


> You have a thicker skin than I do then lol. I think i'd be offended if someone said they think all neutered dogs are not the real deal so to speak and I had one.


I'm also not offended, and I can't see why anyone else would be either. Other people's opinions are.....other people's opinions. :shrug: They don't have anything to do with me, and I don't take them personally. 

My dogs are longcoats. If someone said they thought longcoats were ugly it wouldn't bother me at all. (I know they'd be WRONG! :wub Halo is a sable. If someone said they thought sables were ugly it wouldn't bother me either. To each his or her own.

Everybody loves Keefer.  Some people say that neutered dogs don't look as masculine as dogs that are left intact. I had him neutered at 15 months old, and people can say that all they want, if they met him they'd realize it's not always true - he has a big blocky "boy" head. I think the only way you'd know he's been neutered is to check his rear end. Very carefully, because with all that long hair you really can't see whether he still has his testicles or not!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

OK then, I'm glad)))))) I def don't want to offend anyone. 

As for me, I try telling myself that it's just opinions but sometimes it's not easy, some opinions piss me off))))))

I already know that the dogs don't look diff, I can never tell. I don't even try, there's nothing to go by. As a matter of fact the only fat dog at the park is not neutered. 

Go figure, I don't know why it's so hard to let go of this dumbness that lives in my head. 

PS I love long coats!! I didn't realize they were a fault by the standard until I came here, they're beautiful



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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> PS I love long coats!! I didn't realize they were a fault by the standard until I came here, they're beautiful


There's hope for you yet! oke:


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> There's hope for you yet! oke:


)))))


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

All of my cats and dogs are spayed and neutered except for my GSD who just turned one. I can tell you that they are all in really good shape... My 10 y/o female Chi/terrier is in peak condition, really muscular, she has CRAZY toy and food drive, she would have been a perfect sport prospect had I known about it when I first got her and she was spayed as a puppy. My golden mix who was also neutered at 6 months is in perfect physical condition and super active, LOTS of toy drive. Only difference I've noticed with my intact GSD is he wants to sniff and pee on everything. :crazy:

He and Ollie playing - defintiely NOT a fat and lazy dog, lol.





I also didn't know anything about dog training, I did a bunch of classes with my dogs and learned that way... I also learn a lot at herding training, doing a sport is another great way to bond with your pup and challenge yourself. I guess ultimately its a matter of personal preference and I don't think everyone has to be doing dog sports to be a good home but for me it takes dog ownership to a whole new level which I'm finding myself enjoy immensely!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> Re training. There are dogs that do need a handler with advanced skills right of the bat. I used to believe that GSDs are for everyone but not anymore. Just my opinion.


I agree. My wife and I tried steering someone away from a dog we knew would be way over their head. We had them talk to a PP trainer and they too failed to convince them. Now we are starting to see the downfall of their choice.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

CarrieSue, no, they def don't))))))) and what an amazing beach!!!! There rr no beaches anywhere close that I can take my boy to. 


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel said:


> Some dogs do care. If you have a working Lab who's been bred for generations to be a gun dog (as my family's dog was), that dog _absolutely_ cared about going out duck hunting. She loved swimming in the pool, too, but there was no question at all that her preference list went walk < playing fetch in the pool < playing fetch in the lake < actual duck hunting. That dog was happiest working, and nothing else in her life could compare.
> 
> I firmly believe that dogs who are bred to work understand work. Can they be happy as pets if they have some other outlet? Sure, no argument there. But do would they be _happier_ doing their jobs? I think that at least some of them would.


LOL! I am respectfully disagreeing with you! It was all the same to the dog. It is your own human construct that gives definition to what makes the dog "happier" or "happiest". The dog doesn't care about degrees of happiness. Or the purpose of the person they are interacting with. 

How do you know nothing else in the dog's life could compare? Maybe if you played fetch in the pool for the same amount of time the dog would fetch while out hunting you would see the same signs of comparable "happiness"? Or maybe if you could recreate the same kind of physical effort on land that fetching in water creates for the dog, you would see the same signs of comparable "happiness" in dry land fetching?

The dog is responding to having all those needs met in an adequate manner: companionship, exercise, purposeful effort. You would see the same signs of "happiness" from the dog if those needs were being met in a different activity, with the same level of achievement as the hunting provides. It is not activity specific, it is specific to how completely their entire needs are met. 
Sheilah


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


:thumbup: IMO sport homes are some of the worst homes. They tend to treat dogs like equipment and are more than happy to dump the dog if it doesn't exactly meet their expectations or they themselves fall short. I am not talking people who do sport for fun with their pets. 

Show people are probably about the same.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Freestep....where do you think working dogs come from?


I think they come from working dog breeders, don't they? Do police and military get dogs from craigslist ads, local shelters, rescues? I wouldn't think that many randomly-bred BYB dogs would make the grade for a working dog... depending on what you mean by "work"... a BYB dog might make a fine junkyard dog, but a police k9? You need a pretty well selected set of genetics for this. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I was under the impression that those who purchase working dogs look for a certain type of pedigree.

Now, if some less-than-ethical breeder has somehow gotten a hold of some really nice, proven dogs with excellent and compatible pedigrees, and breeds the **** out of them with no regard, you might consider him a BYB. Are those dogs then "BYB" dogs? For the first generation I say no, because the genetics are still there--but in a few more generations, they will probably become BYB dogs if the breeder does nothing with them.

But when I say "BYB dog", I'm referring to a dog that has no known pedigree or has untested, untitled, unknown dogs in the pedigree for many generations, and no xrays or health testing for many generations.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> It is not activity specific, it is specific to how completely their entire needs are met.


My argument is that, for a certain subset of dogs, there isn't a difference between these two things. Their entire need includes an opportunity to do the job for which they were bred.

That's why some dogs respond to herding instinct tests and others don't. Treibball is a reasonable substitute for a lot of people who don't have recreational farms, but a dog isn't going to respond instinctively to a giant rubber ball the way it will to a sheep. A floating bumper is not the same as a duck -- again, reasonable substitute, but not the same thing.

Many dogs don't have these hardwired instincts or desires. But some do. It's built into them the way the desire for human companionship is built in.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lhczth said:


> IMO sport homes are some of the worst homes. They tend to treat dogs like equipment and are more than happy to dump the dog if it doesn't exactly meet their expectations or they themselves fall short. I am not talking people who do sport for fun with their pets.
> 
> Show people are probably about the same.


Man, y'all know some very different sport/show people than I do.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel, I understand how enthusiastic you are about dogs and training and competition. I get that and it is wonderful. But I think perhaps you over think it all and I think you spend too much time putting human emotions in their little doggy brains. 

Come talk to me in 25 years. We'll see if continued experience will broaden your mind a little. 
Sheilah


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I my opinion, a good home is one where the dog's needs are met, which means that the owner understands dogs and doesn't anthropomorphize the animal.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Why are show and sport home better for the breed?  I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, most did not come from sport or show breeders....I am missing this reasoning. A lot of the working dogs I have seen are BYB looking dogs. So why is a show and sport home better than a pet home. I'm just confused.


Could you clarify this post please?

Your initial statement was about show and sport homes, then your next sentence concerns thousands of working dogs. I'm also interested in where you would have seen thousands of working dogs unless you were at Lackland, or involved with a big law enforcement kennels.

What do you consider a working dog? Our definitions may vary greatly; this is why I ask.

I'm not doubting you in any way. I would like to discuss some points with you, and would like to do so using the same definitions for the same terms LOL.

I consider a working dog, in the context of this conversation, to be one used professionally in military, LE, or contract work. These dogs may or may not come with pedigree papers when they are green dogs, but they typically come from very serious breeders that sell to agencies across the globe who require serious dogs. IMO, these are not byb. The breeding of these dogs is done carefully to have the highest acceptance rate possible by these agencies.

I do not consider dogs doing sport to be working dogs. Before I get flamed, I have nothing but the utmost respect for sport trainers and dogs. They operate at a very high level and under extreme scrutiny. In no way am I trying to take anything away from sport training. In many ways, their training is far more detailed than that of a working dog. 


I feel a good home is one that fits the dog in activity level, provides quality food and medical care, is knowledgeable about training or willing to work with a trainer or club, and cares about the physical and emotional needs of the dog. 

IME, these homes consist of people that do something with their dogs, be it camping, hunting, sport, agility, ob, go everywhere dogs... I don't think the particular activity matters as much as the time spent with the dog, engaging it's mind and body.

My working dogs lead an incredibly fulfilling life, especially when deployed. They spend 23 hours a day with daddy, working, training, chilling, playing... how many pet dogs get this luxury? 

David Winners


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

-You don't sleep?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Cliff said, "byb *looking* dogs." I don't think for a minute he is saying most working dogs come from byb's....I interpreted it as more of a comparison of the working lines to the show lines....and the great difference in the *appearance* of the two. I could be wrong...but I didn't take his statement as "a lot of working GSDs come from BYBs."


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Merciel said:


> My argument is that, for a certain subset of dogs, there isn't a difference between these two things. Their entire need includes an opportunity to do the job for which they were bred.
> 
> That's why some dogs respond to herding instinct tests and others don't. Treibball is a reasonable substitute for a lot of people who don't have recreational farms, but a dog isn't going to respond instinctively to a giant rubber ball the way it will to a sheep. A floating bumper is not the same as a duck -- again, reasonable substitute, but not the same thing.
> 
> Many dogs don't have these hardwired instincts or desires. But some do. It's built into them the way the desire for human companionship is built in.


IMHO, if you are seeing less intensity in training than in a blind with your shotgun, the dog is reading you more than the situation. You are more excited about actually hunting and the retrieve of a real duck, so your dog picks up on that. JMO

I witness this in detection work, where a dog will work for far longer during an actual search outside the wire because it's reading the excitement and anticipation of the handler. I also see this when a handler that is boring to their dog hands the leash off to an exciting trainer, and the dog immediately perks up and gets to work. 

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

holland said:


> -You don't sleep?


Not without my dog.

David Winners


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

David Winners said:


> IMHO, if you are seeing less intensity in training than in a blind with your shotgun, the dog is reading you more than the situation. You are more excited about actually hunting and the retrieve of a real duck, so your dog picks up on that. JMO
> 
> I witness this in detection work, where a dog will work for far longer during an actual search outside the wire because it's reading the excitement and anticipation of the handler. I also see this when a handler that is boring to their dog hands the leash off to an exciting trainer, and the dog immediately perks up and gets to work.


Yes, I think that was probably part of it.

In addition to the difference in handler excitement level (which I'm sure was a factor in this situation), it's definitely a much more fun/challenging environment for the dog to be hunting "for real" vs. just fetching a bumper out of a pool, and I would imagine that adds to the excitement level as well. Just being out in the woods or on a lake is more fun than being in the same backyard pool that the dog sees every day. Couple that with the real excitement of a duck (blood! feathers! interesting wild smells!) and it's just a much more fun job overall.

So, yep, all part of the puzzle.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Merciel said:


> My argument is that, for a certain subset of dogs, there isn't a difference between these two things. Their entire need includes an opportunity to do the job for which they were bred.
> 
> That's why some dogs respond to herding instinct tests and others don't. Treibball is a reasonable substitute for a lot of people who don't have recreational farms, but a dog isn't going to respond instinctively to a giant rubber ball the way it will to a sheep. A floating bumper is not the same as a duck -- again, reasonable substitute, but not the same thing.
> 
> Many dogs don't have these hardwired instincts or desires. But some do. It's built into them the way the desire for human companionship is built in.


I am more inclined to agree with Sheilah. I would love to know the reference point for these different levels of "happiness." A border collie that never sees a herd or an agility course, but is given mind games, hiked, and walked a lot, appears, to me, to be just as "fulfilled" and "satisfied" with life. I believe there is only different levels of *drive* in dogs, and those *drives* need to be fulfilled in *some way*....but it by no means needs to do exactly what it was bred for....only a home that is capable of sating it's *drives* and *energy*.

I believe the difference in *drive* (I wouldn't call it "happiness") you are referring to is really a result of the excitement of the trainer/handler. My father trained bird dogs. Along with most of his friends. His dogs did not show a difference between training with him and hunting with him. He had friends that trained similar and also friends that (naturally) weren't as excitable during training as they were during hunting and you could see it in their dogs. There are many factors that contribute to the level of drive in the dog. Only looking at one closes your mind to the possibilities of the others.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> Merciel, I understand how enthusiastic you are about dogs and training and competition. I get that and it is wonderful. But I think perhaps you over think it all and I think you spend too much time putting human emotions in their little doggy brains.
> 
> Come talk to me in 25 years. We'll see if continued experience will broaden your mind a little.
> Sheilah


How am I going to get better if I don't watch closely and try to learn from what I'm seeing? It's only _over_thinking it at the point that I stop seeing improved results. Until then, it's just "thinking it." 

Anyway, whether you intended it that way or not: that's not a counterargument, that's just being patronizing.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> A border collie that never sees a herd or an agility course, but is given mind games, hiked, and walked a lot, appears, to me, to be just as "fulfilled" and "satisfied" with life.


I think this is maybe one of those scenarios where we're all really talking about the same thing and it just seems like a disagreement because we're using slightly different words.

Basically the point that I'm trying to get at is that if you have a working dog (which already knocks out a big chunk of non-specialist dogs and dogs that have been bred away from their original purpose), and you know what the dog is meant to do, then you can easily fulfill the dog's needs by allowing it to do that work. It's easy to make a retriever happy by allowing it to retrieve. It's easy to make a border collie happy by allowing it to work on a farm.

I am not arguing that this is the _only_ way to make such dogs happy. But it's usually a pretty good package deal. Without it, you have to put all the pieces together separately: stimulating novel environment, challenging mental puzzles, demanding athletic exercise, high level of handler interest/excitement, and all tailored in such a way that it triggers the dog's innate interests. A retriever isn't going to have that particular itch scratched by working on a sheep farm, and a BC isn't going to get it from working in a duck blind.

You can put the package together with a lot of different parts. But recognizing them makes it easier to assess how that particular dog's "needs" are shaped.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sit said:


> The truth of the matter is that no dog cares about whether they are house pets or not. They care about having clear, consistent rules, adequate shelter, food and exercise for their particular needs. They don't care one way or the other how those needs get met (i.e. a working or sport endeavor vs. a strictly pet endeavor).
> Sheilah


Agree.

Dogs are fairly simple creatures......it is us humans who tend to complicate things.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel said:


> How am I going to get better if I don't watch closely and try to learn from what I'm seeing? It's only _over_thinking it at the point that I stop seeing improved results. Until then, it's just "thinking it."
> 
> Anyway, whether you intended it that way or not: that's not a counterargument, that's just being patronizing.


There is no patronizing intent when I say, with all due respect to your newbie enthusiasm, that the conversation we might have in another 25 years will be different from this one. Continued experience on your part will help you broaden your frame of reference.

There is nothing inherently wrong with watching closely and trying to put what you're observing into a context that works for you. I think that, based on the things you have written in various threads, that you spend a lot of time trying to define dog behavior in terms of human constructed emotions: the dog is happiest doing...because..., the dog is terrified of...because... 

The things that dogs do, their success at being in our world and in learning how to interact with us despite how little effort most of us put into meeting them even half way, is amazing all on it's own. Why dirty that by dragging our human assumptions and emotions into the picture? 

Perhaps that extra "happiness" in your Dad's hunting partner was more in reaction to your Dad's elevated heartbeat at _his _pleasure in being out actually hunting? Maybe his scent changed in reaction to his excitement and that is what your Dad's dog was showing an extra sharpness in reaction to? Who knows? 

As you gain more experience with dogs, you will become exposed to so many different theories about why anything happens in the way it does. Your mind will broaden in reaction to other ideas and concepts. That isn't patronizing. That is growth. 
Sheilah


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I think this is maybe one of those scenarios where we're all really talking about the same thing and it just seems like a disagreement because we're using slightly different words.
> 
> Kind of. I just don't think there are different "levels of fullfillment/happiness" that you speak of. I was thinking about your reference to dogs requiring human interaction. Well, yes and no...they need *some* kind of interaction...they would be just as fulfilled with only another dog around as they would with a human. We had a rottie at my local shelter that had lived in a run with two other dogs and near NO human interaction it's whole life. The dog did not care about humans...at.all....It had to be TAUGHT to seek attention from humans again. The dog's biology to be in a pack had been fulfilled. If it truly had this "instinct" you speak of to *need* human interaction, it would have welcomed the human interaction. It didn't....at all. It wasn't aggressive, just did not care about humans. After training and only allowing the dog to eat from human hands, etc....it now seeks out human interaction and was placed with a lovely older couple. The shelter wanted to put it down.....
> 
> ...


Thoughts in red.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

sparra said:


> Agree.
> 
> Dogs are fairly simple creatures......it is us humans who tend to complicate things.


It is a freaking miracle that they put up with us as well as they do! And give us our mulligan over and over and over again.
Sheilah


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

sit said:


> There is no patronizing intent when I say, with all due respect to your newbie enthusiasm, that the conversation we might have in another 25 years will be different from this one. Continued experience on your part will help you broaden your frame of reference.
> 
> There is nothing inherently wrong with watching closely and trying to put what you're observing into a context that works for you. I think that, based on the things you have written in various threads, that you spend a lot of time trying to define dog behavior in terms of human constructed emotions: the dog is happiest doing...because..., the dog is terrified of...because...
> 
> ...


Very well said, like I said before to you. I find myself spouting off the viewpoint of my TD, I am a new SchH handler, and am so excited about the knowledge I am gaining and want to share it with everyone!!! Lol, but I also need to check myself because I know that learning one method, can naturally cloud the perspective and open-mindedness to the others.

I think my background helps me in thinking about different training methods, and owning animals, because I spent so much time studying animal behaviors and what biologically drove them.....easy...food, safety, and reproduction...lol. In training and owning a dog, every behavior, in my opinion...can be traced back to fulfilling one of those biological needs. Such interesting topics to discuss!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> I think that, based on the things you have written in various threads, that you spend a lot of time trying to define dog behavior in terms of human constructed emotions: the dog is happiest doing...because..., the dog is terrified of...because...
> 
> The things that dogs do, their success at being in our world and in learning how to interact with us despite how little effort most of us put into meeting them even half way, is amazing all on it's own. Why dirty that by dragging our human assumptions and emotions into the picture?


It is true that I do spend a lot of time trying to understand their behaviors and motivations. I like it, it's fun, and it's had a very concrete beneficial impact in the sense that it's enabled me to take crazypants dog from borderline unadoptable to where he is now.

I don't think it's "dirtying" anything to try to understand the dog's perspective and have empathy for its preferences, emotions, and responses. Obviously I'm limited in my ability to interpret and observe, and I'm constrained to use the concepts and language of human emotions in doing so, and on this board particularly I often get lazy about using shortcuts because this is pretty much a just-for-fun place where I can let speculations go freewheeling out into the Internet ether because it amuses me to do so and makes for interesting conversation (to me, anyway).

And As You Know, Bob, I am a fiction writer by trade (well, part-time trade...) and so trying to imagine my way into other heads, and invent the narratives of their lives, is a thing I get paid to do. Sometimes that bleeds over into other stuff.

Anyway, yes, I have no doubt you're right that in 25 years I'll have a different perspective -- and hopefully a wiser and more educated one. All of this is just my messy attempt at getting there.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ David Winners.....yes I have trained at Lackland, and Fort Benning, I also have been involved with PD academies( training and procurement) since the late seventies.....I have seen a few working dogs....that being military and police.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> what biologically drove them.....easy...food, safety, and reproduction...lol.


....which basically describes us, as well.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> ....which basically describes us, as well.


Haha! Yes! Of course we have the ability to ,based on emotions, feelings, what have you...put off one or more of those things based on emotions/feelings etc....When a woman with children get's a new partner she doesn't expect him to kill off her children and immediately impregnate her to further his genetics lol....Because we can imagine the consequences beyond those primal instincts and *care* about how it effects others. Some humans, of course, are better at this than others lol!!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Merciel said:


> Anyway, yes, I have no doubt you're right that in 25 years I'll have a different perspective -- and hopefully a wiser and more educated one. All of this is just my messy attempt at getting there.


That is the amazing thing about working with animals. You never get to a point where you "know it all". The journey is everything, because you never reach the end of the road.

I have owned and ridden horses for 36 years and I am just now beginning to understand how moving my left shoulder back 1/2 an inch opens the door for my horse to become sooo forward! How cool is it that after 36 years of doing something I am learning how to make an adjustment that changes something so fundamental as forward? 

I have lived with dogs my entire 50 years. And I am just now beginning to consider how intuitive they are and how that informs training. How does my dog know when I am about 10 minutes from pulling into the drive way? How does my dog know to respond to my movement across the room when my intent is to let him out, even when he is sound asleep? And hasn't stirred at all the four times I moved across the room without the intent to let him out?

Life with animals is a never ending learning experience. It never stops. An engaged trainer is ever evolving.
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> But when I say "BYB dog", I'm referring to a dog that has no known pedigree or has untested, untitled, unknown dogs in the pedigree for many generations, and no xrays or health testing for many generations.


There is a big range of what people consider BYB. My Buddy is UKC papered from a working SAR handler who bred her working male to her working female. They both were health tested and working dogs. Does that make her not a BYB? I consider that a hobby breeder but that is just my own opinion. 11 years ago when I got my Buddy many of the working dogs were UKC not AKC. I don't know if that has changed.


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

To me a good home is how much love and care the dog receives. You cant measure it on the size of the house or yard or how much money you spend on your dog. If you have a true devotion to your animals and take care of them as best as you can thats all you need. When I have applied to shelters to adopt I got flak for living in an apartment. Them not understanding that I spend hours outside a day with 4 county and state parks surronding my apt complex. Also I saw a video of a homeless man feeding his dog half of the sandwhich he was eating, food Im sure he was starving for.... anybody think that dog isnt loved in a 'good home'?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This has been a very interesting thread for me. Alot of good feedback.

What I have taken away from it is very exciting to me. I will be looking for another GSD in about two years. I want a working line from a solid breeder, don't care about coat color but want a male.

Honestly, I was intimidated by working line breeders when I was researching breeders. I'm not looking for a hardcharger protection dog. That is not my direction. I was wrong by thinking that counted me out with them. Some well respected breeders in this thread have sounded off in this thread, thank you.

What I am looking for is a partner. My husband & I are active. We love the outdoors. We hike & camp all year. We need a dog who is game for that. Long days, hot & cold conditions. Sleeping outside & calm in a tent. Not hesitant to climb over fallen trees, walk through a stream & not be spooked by wild life. My husband has taken Rusty rappelling. Rusty trusts him, we also need that in a new GSD. I want a dog that can visit the local farmers in my area while I buy produce. Who will also be a accepting host when guests are in our home.

Although we are not a working home we believe Rusty knows he has a job with us & shows up every day for work. It's a give & take partnership. I love having him within in my eye sight all the time. This morning we went to the lake & watched the sunrise, he laid there next to me & swear he enjoyed it too.

We allow him to be a dog & nourish his dog spirit He's aloud to chase squirrels out of the yard, get muddy, mark as much as he wants if we are hiking or in his yard, but not on leashed walks in neighbors yards, that's rude. He can take his raw bone, bury it then dig it up & eat it again..that's gross to me but it makes him happy. I even let him bark at another dog sometimes....oh the shame of it all. lol

My point, although not a working home I am a wonderful home for a dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

like they say in music It's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. you
don't have to be talented or gifted to play. you have to practice.
to train a dog you don't have to be a natural or a whisperer you 
have to be consistent in your training. 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Definitely not as easy as it looks if you're watching someone who is very skilled! We've worked with Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel, (they breed working Belgian Malinois), Lisa Maze. The basic concepts of training are fairly simple once you learn them, but that does not mean that it's necessarily "easy". As Lisa put it once "there are a lot of moving parts", lol.
> 
> 
> >>>>> But I do agree with Sheilah that training is a skill that can be learned. <<<<<
> ...


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Tom, I hear you.

I have seen people with a ton of property, all fenced in, beautiful. But they do nothing with their dog. Dogs don't just do laps on their own & get excersise. lol The opposite, like you, I also know people in an apartment & they are out and about, engaging their dog & taking advantage of parks in their areas. The dog is well rounded & settles in the apartment, downtime nicely.



TommyB681 said:


> To me a good home is how much love and care the dog receives. You cant measure it on the size of the house or yard or how much money you spend on your dog. If you have a true devotion to your animals and take care of them as best as you can thats all you need. When I have applied to shelters to adopt I got flak for living in an apartment. Them not understanding that I spend hours outside a day with 4 county and state parks surronding my apt complex. Also I saw a video of a homeless man feeding his dog half of the sandwhich he was eating, food Im sure he was starving for.... anybody think that dog isnt loved in a 'good home'?


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