# Question regarding "the game"



## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Ivan Balabanov's "game" relys heavily on outing a dog/pup during play, in order for them to initiate play(tugging) again. The theory makes sense to me

Yet, Ive also heard that you should always let your dog win, and that to much outing a young dog can cause problems down the road in bitework. So, was just wondering if this was one of those things that depends on the dog, or.. either way can work. 

Just wondering if there are any pros/cons to each?

OR, is the latter concept merely pertaining to actual bitework, and not just playing with a ball and doing obedience. I know in early bitework training the dog/pup should always win and carry the sleeve. SO, if I DONT let my pup win the ball during playing and doing obedience, yet they ALWAYS win during bitework training.. is that confusing, will the 2 correlate?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Always outing the dog can create problems, yes. On the other hand, at some point you've got to get the toy away from the dog so you can work on sits and downs and the other stuff the game is good at teaching. And the method for teaching the out used in the game makes the out rewarding to the dog, because it restarts the game by making "dead" prey come alive again.

As with all things, it's about balance and it does depend on the dog.

We don't typically start game like training with our dogs until 6-8 months old, once they've had the basic obedience commands taught using food and are done teething, so they're ready to up the ante to higher drive, toy reward obedience training. So by then they've already had quite a bit of tug play in which they've gotten used to winning. So the dog is already accustomed to winning and the mindset of working and tugging hard brings success is strongly instilled in the dog. It's that confidence of "if I fight, I will win" that is the goal of letting pups win at tug. So by the time the game has started, the pup already has that confidence.

Then when playing the game, sometimes we still let the dog win but we're also sure to only allow him to win when he's showing fighting and tugging behaviors we really want to encourage and reward. We also teach the dogs to come back to us with the toy for more play, after they've paraded around a bit after winning. So the dog comes back and reengages in the game, we tug some more. The dog winning doesn't end the game any more than the dog outing does.

So sometimes in the game the dog wins and gets to carry the tug, sometimes we out the dog off the tug. I couldn't give a ratio of how often we out the dog and how often we let the dog win, since it depends on the dog, the goals for that session and what behaviors the dog shows.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Not sure about SCH, but I do know this:

When doing protection training, the dog must always win because it builds unfailing confidence. You do not want a protection dog to hesitate, or be unsure of itself.

But, when playing, it's a different story. The dog knows it's play, so it's OK if you win sometimes.

Hope this helps.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Balabanov's "Game" is a method of toy based motivational training for obedience. It's not protection training.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Theory and practice sometimes conflict! Theory is idealistic and in a perfect world/situation!

Depending on how the training progress, often a youngster is frustrated to build drive....especially a youngster with high natural confidence....not teaching an out can REALLY bit you in the butt! SERIOUSLY. With a dog with high strong natural possession, it is good to have some work on the out - not always taking the object away, but always rewarding the command with allowing repossession....knowing the genetics/family traits is important here as some of this runs in families....with Kristy's pup - teaching an out and trading for toys is very very very very important -














mom and all siblings share the high toy drive, prey drive and possessiveness.....out for reward is very high priority to establish...

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Every dog has to learn the out at some point. The trick is to do it in a manner that avoids creating conflict. Teaching it similar to what is taught in the game, using the out as a means to restart the game by making the dead prey come alive again is a great way to do it and IMO builds a good foundation of understanding of the command and being willing to out which carries over into protection.

Dogs are also situational... they understand the difference between playing, or doing play based obedience with the handler, and doing protection. So outing the dog in play and obedience isn't going to hurt their confidence working on the helper. But, the dog's whole attitude toward outing as is seen in play and obedience will somewhat transfer. If conflict is created in play and obedience between handler and dog over the out command, that will carry over into protection. If the dog is clear and happy to out in play and obedience because he understands it will be more fun if he does out, that also will carry over into protection.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild If conflict is created in play and obedience between handler and dog over the out command, that will carry over into protection. If the dog is clear and happy to out in play and obedience because he understands it will be more fun if he does out, that also will carry over into protection.


Chris, Can you offer an example of the conflict that may be created by a trainer not employing proper technique in play or obedience with the out command?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:knowing the genetics/family traits is important here as some of this runs in families....with Kristy's pup - teaching an out and trading for toys is very very very very important - mom and all siblings share the high toy drive, prey drive and possessiveness.....out for reward is very high priority to establish...



This is very true! 

As is what Chris says about keeping it balanced, letting the dog win vs. you keeping it and not creating conflict between dog and handler..


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Okay, thanks all









I'm not too far off base then, up until pretty recently, Hexe has always won the toy during play. She is about 7.5 months now, and she was starting to sprint off after winning, and just continue to prance around and around and around..lol. She is catching on to the "game" very quickly, and actually, now when she DOES win, she comes right back for more playing.. so I'm happy with that! I think it's a good idea to still let her win sometimes, and could see how it could easily become conflicting if the "out" isn't taught the correct way. In the game, its kinda of just a brief pause in playing, and the dog knows that, so outing isnt really a big deal. 

I really didn't think it would cause too much problem with actual bitework, because I figured even though some of the same principals will be in play, they do know the difference. But I did want to see what others thought. So thanks!

And yes Lee, if she didn't learn to out soon Im not sure if Id ever get the ball off her! Even if I have 2, she just wants both!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Kristi-

I started playing two ball with Hawke before I went to the game.. It kept him coming back to me and it taught him the out.. So there was no conflict or fight between him or I .. Then, once he was reliably playing and outing for the next throw all the time, I moved onto playing the game w/him and he won the object 97% of the time.. Then gradually switching it up over time!

Also a long line worked great!!!!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildEvery dog has to learn the out at some point. The trick is to do it in a manner that avoids creating conflict. Teaching it similar to what is taught in the game, using the out as a means to restart the game by making the dead prey come alive again is a great way to do it and IMO builds a good foundation of understanding of the command and being willing to out which carries over into protection.
> 
> Dogs are also situational... they understand the difference between playing, or doing play based obedience with the handler, and doing protection. So outing the dog in play and obedience isn't going to hurt their confidence working on the helper. But, the dog's whole attitude toward outing as is seen in play and obedience will somewhat transfer. If conflict is created in play and obedience between handler and dog over the out command, that will carry over into protection. If the dog is clear and happy to out in play and obedience because he understands it will be more fun if he does out, that also will carry over into protection.


I was going to reply to the OP but was to lazy and hate typing big explanations Yours is perfect with less words


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KHudak
> 
> Yet, Ive also heard that you should always let your dog win, and that to much outing a young dog can cause problems down the road in bitework. So, was just wondering if this was one of those things that depends on the dog, or.. either way can work.


we have a trainer that comes down from the chicago area that uses the Ivan method. they were doing the outing while playing with a doberman too often and it did lead to some problems in his bite work but was also worked out.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

The problem with 2 ball, is that she will not release the 1st ball.. she runs back to me with it, waits for me to throw the 2nd one, runs out with the 1st ball in her mouth, to get the second one, and only then releases the first one when she gets the 2nd one. THEN, if I walk out to get the 1st ball, its THAT ball she wants! 


Steve, do you know what type of problems the dobe was having with bitework?


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakThe problem with 2 ball, is that she will not release the 1st ball.. she runs back to me with it, waits for me to throw the 2nd one, runs out with the 1st ball in her mouth, to get the second one, and only then releases the first one when she gets the 2nd one. THEN, if I walk out to get the 1st ball, its THAT ball she wants!


Guess she has you trained


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakThe problem with 2 ball, is that she will not release the 1st ball.. she runs back to me with it, waits for me to throw the 2nd one, runs out with the 1st ball in her mouth, to get the second one, and only then releases the first one when she gets the 2nd one. THEN, if I walk out to get the 1st ball, its THAT ball she wants!


That's part of the problem. You shouldn't throw the 2nd ball if she doesn't release the 1st one. You're not teaching her anything there. You need to do something else to get her to release the 1st ball BEFORE throwing the 2nd ball. I think it was Melanie from Alaska that had a good suggestion on another thread similar to this involving food falling from her mouth onto the dog's head.

I'm not saying to do this all the time, but once she gets the message that she must release the first one before the second is thrown you can probably then stop with the food thing. Use your creative mind to come with a variation on Melanie's food thing to get that first ball dropped.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Ive tried waiting her out, she wont drop it! She might trade for food though, not sure.
Im not too worried about it at this point, ever since we've been doing the game, shes starting to come right back to me after she does a short prance around with the ball.. I think she likes the tugging more than just having the ball.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakThe problem with 2 ball, is that she will not release the 1st ball.. she runs back to me with it, waits for me to throw the 2nd one, runs out with the 1st ball in her mouth, to get the second one, and only then releases the first one when she gets the 2nd one. THEN, if I walk out to get the 1st ball, its THAT ball she wants!
> 
> 
> Steve, do you know what type of problems the dobe was having with bitework?


yes, keep in mind that this is a young dobie (around a year old). the dog would bite, release and then drop into a down. without any command. the dobies owner was doing a lot of obediance work with the dog and it somehow confused the dog. also this dobies sire did the same thing. i cant pin point what or why the dog was doing this but these people use the Ivan method (which is not a bad one). since the idea of the bite and outing with a toy is that the dog already associates the bite work as "fun." the sleeve or coat is just as much of a toy as a tug to the dog. the dog was being rewarded for outing the tug which he may have associated the same practice with the coat. so in other words he would bite the coat, drop into a down and then wait for the command to bite again without any command to out or down.

the way that my trainer builds the out is on the coat or sleeve, not a toy. we let the dogs win the toys building confidence. that being said the dog has had his bitework built and is ready to start building the out.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakIve tried waiting her out, she wont drop it! She might trade for food though, not sure.
> Im not too worried about it at this point, ever since we've been doing the game, shes starting to come right back to me after she does a short prance around with the ball.. I think she likes the tugging more than just having the ball.


are you planning to start doing bitework with your pup?? if so i wouldnt worry to much about building an out, keep letting your dog win. just trade her for something else keeping the games fun. if you are planning to do bitework your trainer will decide when it is time to build the out


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KHudakIve tried waiting her out, she wont drop it! She might trade for food though, not sure.
> ...


Unfortunately, this is not always true! I had one dog who was not taught an out early on toys - by the time it was decided to start teaching the out, it was too late - it took over a year and a change in trainers to get an out - lots of frustration, tears and headshaking. And it did not matter if it was sleeve or dumbbell. As an adult, Michael Ellis worked with the dog (as did Ivan) and both said he should have been taught an 'out' early. Much depends on the individual dog, and the fight drives.

And having raised several siblings to Hexe, and training her mother, I know how tenacious they can be, and the 'out' does need to be established - the "game" being a good way to do it!

Lee


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KHudakIve tried waiting her out, she wont drop it! She might trade for food though, not sure.
> Im not too worried about it at this point, ever since we've been doing the game, shes starting to come right back to me after she does a short prance around with the ball.. I think she likes the tugging more than just having the ball.


I found the post I mentioned above. Might be worth a read.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=973476#Post973476


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't do Schutzhund, but I always start teaching pups to give up something by putting a really yummy treat (freeze dried liver?) right up to their nose when I give the command. Never had one not drop it to take the treat. After they've got the general idea I do lots of trading games with a variety of toys. 

Dena was ball obsessed and didn't want to give up the first ball unless there was a second ball to be thrown, but she learned pretty quickly that it would NOT be thrown until she dropped that first ball. If she didn't, we just turned around and kept walking, game over.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI don't do Schutzhund, but I always start teaching pups to give up something by putting a really yummy treat (freeze dried liver?) right up to their nose when I give the command. Never had one not drop it to take the treat. After they've got the general idea I do lots of trading games with a variety of toys.


This is what I've started with Nikon, but so far I've been using "regular" toys like his balls, stuffies, or other food objects like a bully stick as the things being removed (and right now I call it "drop it"). I am wondering how this translates to SchH. I am uncomfortable using this method with his SchH training toys (rags and tugs) because I *thought* he was supposed to always want THOSE more than anything else, including food. I want him focused on the toy and the game and get his prey drive going, not have him outing at the possibility of getting food. So we haven't done any sort of formal out-ing yet, we just keep starting the tugging all over again, I let him "win", carry off the toy with his head up, and when he drops it it's mine at that second. If I'm done playing, I put it away then.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ending the play for non cooperation is a very good training tool....we do that in schutzhund training a lot too.

Unfortunately, some dogs can amuse themselves for a long time with the last toy/object they posses....trading for food is a good method for those types!

Lee


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


your right i have also seen an issue with a donovan pincher that would not out. when corrected, he would bite harder and become more excited. the frustrateing part was the decoy had to slip the coat to the dog and wait for the dog to release. IMO this dog also came up on its owner when the dog slipped the bite. not being aggressive, its just that this particular dog gets so jacked up it will bite the first thing it sees and god help you if you have any clothes on that resemble a suit.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

ok you all know I know nothing of any kind of training

I play something like that with Jack

either with a bone or rope toy
I tell him to bring it he does then sit and give it he does
I then take the bone and hold it high in the air and make him watch it and he does trying to make him concentrate he is very easily distracted and then I tell him to get it and throw it he does

On the next round he brings it, sits and gives it and then I tug with him and he usually wins because I am a weakling... and then we start all over 

This is good then ?


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I do think it all depends on the dog.. since I know Hexe is already a bit possesive I think the out (with toys of course, not a sleeve!) is important for her. Shes 7 months so, not a baby anymore, and up until now she has had plenty of wins with her toys. She's already got tons of drive & confidence so that is not an issue. I agree about the way the out is taught is most important. I have still been letting her win atleast a couple times each time we play.

Maybe with the Dobe...(just a thought, I have no idea) was that the owner was asking for the out as soon as the dog grabbed the toy, rather than tugging first, then outing the dog? Because with Hexe, even if I imobilize the toy, she still won't out right away, I always have to tell her, or else she'd just hang on forever. 

I taught Bixler to out with food, but he LOVES food! Im not sure what Hexe would do if she had to choose between food or toy, she'd probably gobble the food then try to get the toy back somehow, but I think Ill try and see which she prefers, wouldnt be surprised if it was the ball

Kathy, that sounds great what Jack is doing!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

DH & I had a chance to watch the first two videos in the series.

The Game CAN be done without the toy/tugging aspect. In the video Ivan uses food for a couple dogs instead of toys.

As for getting the out it's a simple waiting game. You get the dog to grab the toy, you play tug for a bit then you and the toy STOP MOVING. Now it's just a matter of waiting them out.

With older dogs Ivan uses an technique where he 'annoys' the dog by constantly popping their collar. It's not a hard pop - not like a correction - but just a constant nagging popping.

And what I got from watching the video is that the 'out' doesn't end the game, it's STARTS it. You tug with the dog and then you stop moving. IHO the game ended right there. When you stop moving you give the OUT command and when the dog does it the game starts again.


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