# Bad night at advanced traing class



## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Bad night at dog training

A young beefy girl had a GSD about a year old. The dog was pretty nicely put together. Definitely not an American show dog but more on working dog lines. Still an American dog however.

Anyway the dog is reactive to other dogs. He growled and barked at another close by dog and the girl severely yanked the dog down by the prong collar and literally smothered the dog. He was crying and squealing terribly. She held him down for about a minute all the while the dog was just screaming. This happened at least half a dozen times during the evening class. Once right in front of my dog and me. My dog did not like this at all. Interesting. She barked hard like she was telling the handler to stop hurting my friend. I simply redirected her and offered some calming pets and reward as she looked up to me.

I'm very surprised the trainer didn't do something. They generally don't permit any abusive tactics. I've seen all the trainers there work with reactive dogs and they surely handle this better. I don't think I've ever heard even a Yelp out of dogs they worked directly.

I just don't understand why GSD owners seem to think that extreme punishment with the prong is necessary with these dogs. Rottys, Dobes, Mals and other big dogs all seem to get this harsh treatment out of course. It's like they have Koehler and Cesar methods imbedded in their brains. It just isn't necessary.

In this case the dog is already exhibiting shyness toward the handler. Obviously she has done this before. All this does is teach the dog to fear the handler. All the pain came directly from the handler not the event. The dog forgot the event the instant he felt the first pinch of the prong. From there on the dog was focused on the handler hurting him. This young girl needs some one on one instruction. I would have taken her aside after class and had a serious discussion with her.

This dog needs to just be around the other dogs for awhile. At some distance. They could easily have been directed to keep their distance and just permitted to walk around especially during the down times. They could even be excused from various training events we do. It's hard to do close quarters work with a dog aggressive dog, but not impossible.

The classroom is open the hour before our class so I usually come early and do some practice and some of our more complicated events. I'd recommend this team come early and get comfortable. She has come late to the last couple of classes.

This dog is not a super high drive hard nerves dog like my Aussie. It could be a sweet gentle dog with a better approach to the problem.

I just had to write about this as I felt sorry for the dog. I hope the handler gets some training help. She obviously has done some training but needs redirection.

Byron


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

If that kind of behavior/abuse is condoned by the facility, I think I'd be looking for somewhere else to train with my dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This is hard just to read- upsetting. Did you talk to the instructor after class. I am surprised that the instructor let this go on -it is not right.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I'd have found this upsetting as well and agree that it's an excellent idea to speak to the instructor directly. Before the next class would be best, I think. S/he would (should?) benefit from knowing how the incident impacted other students and their dogs. At best, you may find that the instructor has already taken steps to address the issue; at worst, you may gain add'l information to help in your decision to stay or go.

Regarding your comment on harsh methods (can't call it training) used with certain breeds. Some of it, I believe, is simple ignorance of better/more productive approaches or misunderstanding/misapplication of the Koehler method. In recent years, I've come to suspect that many of the people using these methods are actually _afraid_ of the dogs that they purport to "handle;" even if it's their own dog. I've seen it (in formal training sessions as well as day to day incidents) and it doesn't just happen with GSDs, as you note, but also with numerous large breed/mixes which (I suspect) were selected largely based on uninformed ASSumptions about how hard/dangerous the breed is. 

Lots of compensation going on that's not, as you saw, gender-specific. 

Aly


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with correcting a GSD with a prong collar for reactivity or dog aggression, if the correction is applied properly. However, this method is completely wrong, useless and counterproductive:

"*Anyway the dog is reactive to other dogs. He growled and barked at another close by dog and the girl severely yanked the dog down by the prong collar and literally smothered the dog. He was crying and squealing terribly. She held him down for about a minute all the while the dog was just screaming. *"

Alpha rolls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Holding a dog down is just poor handling, an obviously ineffective technique and a good way to get bit in the face. This is a good example of exactly what not to do. If the trainers did not step in and stop the idiotic stuff the handler did, well you need to find better trainers. I would have stepped in, taken the leash and walked away with the dog. I then would have walked the dog right by the dog he barked at. As a trainer I often take the leash and show the handler how to handle their dog. Demonstrating the correct way to handle dogs is big part of dog training. Explaining things only go so far, IMO. When I take someone dog and show them how easy it is to handle dog aggression or reactivity, it goes a long way to making a point. 

If that happened a half dozen times during your class, obviously this technique wasn't working. Again, after the *first* time the trainer should have stepped in and made a point to the class. The point would be, this is exactly what you do not do. If the trainer is afraid to take this dog's leash and demonstrate how to handle the dog, find a new trainer. 

One dimensional trainers that can only work with clickers and treats are about as useful as trainers that only only know how to yank and crank a dog. The style may work with easy dogs, but more challenging dogs need a more balanced approach. As a trainer, if your afraid of dogs or getting bit by dogs, you need a new profession. You need to be able to step in and correct the handler and the dog simultaneously. Both need a stern correction for their poor behavior. If one of the K-9 handlers in my unit did this, I would give them a harsher correction than I would give the dog. 

There is nothing wrong with making a dog aggressive dog yelp from a correction, that is kinda the point. To stop the behavior immediately, instantly and ensure it doesn't happen again. 

I agree with your point that this handler needs one on one help and to be taught how to properly handle, train and own a dog. After a correction, praise and reward bus the offered at a higher level than the correction. 

I'm not sure I understand this:

*I just don't understand why GSD owners seem to think that extreme punishment with the prong is necessary with these dogs. Rottys, Dobes, Mals and other big dogs all seem to get this harsh treatment out of course. * 

I own a GSD that is tougher and harder than most Rotty's, Dobes and Malinois I have seen. I do not see why one would think the dog's breed determines what type of correction it gets or can handle. Corrections are based on the individual dog's temperament, hardness and behavior. While my GSD, Boomer is a fairly hard dog he rarely needs needs corrections. When he does, it is effective and over quickly. My Malinois / Dutch Shepherd handles corrections entirely differently. He is a somewhat handler sensitive dog, highly reactive to prong corrections and very hard when in drive. Two dogs that need to be handled and worked differently. A prong works perfectly with the GSD; and will get you a dog working his way up the leash with the Mal X Dutch Shepherd.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Im glad and I can see it is important that slamdunc clarified the need for harsher correction with a prong collar depending on the dog and action of the dog. My dog is dog reactive and a use the prong for a correction and now mostly light reminder to behave. Correction has to be fast, clear and be strong as the dogs action. I did take the "Extreme correction" in this thread to mean where the dog got the message and the correction continues on for a minute is what I considered "extreme correction". poor dog not have the instructor give guidance to the handler - not sure what that was about.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Last time I gave an extreme correction was to a dog-aggressive dog lunging at another as it walked past.

The dog yelped. One of the bystanders thought I was being cruel, but our trainer corrected her. This dog already had a couple of bites to its credit, so the correction was necessary!

No over the top yelling, screaming or alpha rolling, just a good, hard correction and a sharp "NO!"


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just like Jenny720, it was hard to read. Last year when we were in class for dog aggression, there were hard corrections but nothing like that. Our trainer would not have tolerated it. 

The hardest thing, for myself, about handling an aggressive event that required a hard correction was mastering a neutral attitude then leaving it behind so that we could carry on as normal. Really mastering it so that the correction became impersonal and not an emotionally charged event that I was having to deal with.

I wonder if that girl even knows how she looked during the episode. I bet she would be pretty upset had it been recorded and played back so she could actually see what it was doing to her pup. Upset in a way that she just didn't realize the overall negative impact.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> Im glad and I can see it is important that slamdunc clarified the need for harsher correction with a prong collar depending on the dog and action of the dog. My dog is dog reactive and a use the prong for a correction and now mostly light reminder to behave. Correction has to be fast, clear and be strong as the dogs action. I did take the "Extreme correction" in this thread to mean where the dog got the message and the correction continues on for a minute is what I considered "extreme correction". poor dog not have the instructor give guidance to the handler - not sure what that was about.


Agree with the above. At the very least the trainer should have stepped in and told the handler what they were doing wrong. The training class I go to is about training dogs and their handlers. Forget what my girl has learnt, i have learnt a lot more


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well that story kinda sucks for the dog and the owner although pretty sure she does not know it yet. I walked a dog like for a client's on my job (I'm PCA) and he was a well trained (former) E -Collar dog. The training stuck ... but something was just off with him?? He never had the sparkle in his eyes that may Struddell did (white Boxer) I just use her because a very happy easy going dog was readily apparent! Rocky my GSD had that "aloof' thing going on ... But my point is with the Westie, ... much as I tried, I just could not him to show joy/zest ...just being a dog?? It was like he was waiting for a shoe to drop on him??? He was a great dog but that was kinda sad ... I just got the "impression" that he got hammered hard during E-Collar Training?? I'm not down on E-Collars but I don't feel it was used properly on that dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Chip18,
Now you may see why I am so against the E collar method proposed by certain former members.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @Chip18,
> Now you may see why I am so against the E collar method proposed by certain former members.


LOL ... no not really??

I merely relayed my observations of the dog's behaviour .. something just seemed off??? He was a rescue and the owners told me later he was E-Collar Trained. They actually had no idea how well the dog was trained! But I Saw it, we walked off leash after a week or two and we when got charged by a loose dog ... sigh yet again and in another city ... but still ... close to home! I told Val to "Stay!" I had no idea if he would comply, but he froze like a stone! I got the loose dog secured ... the gate looked latched but it was not and we were on our way. Val ... never moved I said OK and we were off ... no big deal. 

But no ... I have no idea who, or how that dog was E-Collar Trained??? I just know ... something was not right?? I would suspect a balance more towards "Corrections" then "Training???" The dog was afraid to make a mistake, but I don't know???


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Misha111 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Im glad and I can see it is important that slamdunc clarified the need for harsher correction with a prong collar depending on the dog and action of the dog. My dog is dog reactive and a use the prong for a correction and now mostly light reminder to behave. Correction has to be fast, clear and be strong as the dogs action. I did take the "Extreme correction" in this thread to mean where the dog got the message and the correction continues on for a minute is what I considered "extreme correction". poor dog not have the instructor give guidance to the handler - not sure what that was about.
> ...


Yes always learning. Max made me step it up a bit learned a lot together. If I was having trouble my instructor would always come over and tell me what I needed to do.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Chip18, exactly! 

*But no ... I have no idea who, or how that dog was E-Collar Trained??? I just know ... something was not right?? I would suspect a balance more towards "Corrections" then "Training???" The dog was afraid to make a mistake, but I don't know???*

What you described is what compulsion based training does. It is how a dog trained with compulsion and with out proper praise and reward reacts. I'm hoping that you can start to see the effects of compulsion based or improperly used Kohler methods affect dogs as you get more experience with dogs. Compulsion breeds avoidance and a very unhappy dog. Sometimes avoidance is acceptable, but one must know when this is appropriate for the dog at hand. 

To not be vague, the E collar training you see is the result of the methods that people like Lou Castle advocate. It is not a method of training that I do not like, use or agree with. Recently, you recommended Lou's method's on this forum. With out fully understanding the ramifications or end results of the training. I am pointing this out so you can see what happens when some one incorrectly trains a dog with an E collar. Teaching a dog to sit with an E collar as some recommend is simply wrong, as some do on their website. 

Many people with limited experience will use those methods and not understand what is wrong with their dog down the road.

I am very happy to see that you are recognizing the difference.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I used to work with a guy who specializes in breaking bad habits in retrievers basically, any kind of hunting dog. And I saw him once use a high enough setting on an e-collar that the dog yelped and did essentially a backward somersault .... the dog NEVER did that again. EVER! 

Wrong training, or was that a success? My friend thought it was good...i've always wondered.....it's certainly not how I would approach the same problem.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @Chip18, exactly!
> 
> *But no ... I have no idea who, or how that dog was E-Collar Trained??? I just know ... something was not right?? I would suspect a balance more towards "Corrections" then "Training???" The dog was afraid to make a mistake, but I don't know???*
> 
> ...


Well ... nothing is cast in stone and "Corrections" are subject to "interpretation??" That said "KMODT" ... 100% pure ... I agree with the "concepts" but I have seen it done "online" and it did strike me as ... a bit much???

Tyler Muto's conversational leash work ... strikes me, as a much more reasonable approach?? It's just a variation on KMODT, as I view it, without the harsh change of direction. I see no reason why Long line/Short line/String line can't be done ... conversationally?? I'll just add Down and Stay and a couple more weeks and see what I get??? CMODT perhaps, don't know???

But..."few here" actually ask how I "train"dogs ... people just make "assumptions" based on the ... endless "GSD's Gone Wrong" threads I get in involved?? And when I make an effort to explain what I've done/do! I get told well you didn't, you couldn't or it can't be that simple?? It goes ... down hill from there, it gets old.

As "for a member who is no longer here to defend himself and his methods???" It's not for me to decide what people do ... I trusted him and took him at his word. And while you say it's "compulsive" ... that is not what I here ... paws on the ground as it were. 

But I suppose "this" is a complement?? So I'll simply say "Thank You" I'm still learning and what I saw with Val (the Westie) was pretty easy to see and no ... I did not like "waiting for the hammer to drop behaviour" it was kinda sad and his "current" owners had no clue, he was a nice dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It's easy to see. A dog that is trained with mostly positive training, and given gentle corrections only when necessary should be happy in its work. It shows in the body language. Some of these dogs will be wagging their tails as they do an obedience routine. I love to see that!

A dog that has constantly been corrected, either with a shock collar or 'yank and crank' will be shut down, almost slinking along, for fear of doing something wrong, and getting zapped.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The middle ground is what I strive for, a dog with good precision and reliability in obedience and a good attitude....

I once used Lou Castles technique basically as it is written out and it worked wonderfully...it did create some suppressed behavior but it was needed, the dog was a livestock killer and although I generally agree with everything Slamdunc says that's one time where I felt that method was warranted and appropriate. The dog gradually decreased his inhibited behavior as he figured out that everything was indeed still allowed except for staring, stalking or killing. For the average dog, average situation, I would never want to use an e collar so much, or create an inhibited dog.

I feel like so much ring obedience can be taught with mostly if not all motivational methods that I have much less tolerance for corrections, especially heavy handed ones, in that venue.

The most correction my personal dog has ever gotten for competition obedience is "leave it" or being reset in a stay he broke.

Dock diving is another thing...he is super charged and so are the other dogs which makes them feed off each other and I think I can see how bite sports need a different level to create reliability because once they get so amped up its a whole different animal. All I have to do is get him onto the dog without him acting a fool...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Can the issues seen in dogs like the one chip mentioned be a reflection of the methods used or perhaps the wrong method/tools for that particular dog? Ive known dogs who exhibit the same behavoir chip describes with no ecollar training, a neighbors schnauzer does this and has had no training of any kind. 

I chose to use an ecollar correcting for disregarding known commands. I've looked into methods Lou, Larry Krohn and others use and have a basic understanding of how it works, but have not seen dogs trained with them that I know of.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The middle ground is what I strive for, a dog with good precision and reliability in obedience and a good attitude....
> 
> I once used Lou Castles technique basically as it is written out and it worked wonderfully...it did create some suppressed behavior but it was needed, the dog was a livestock killer and although I generally agree with everything Slamdunc says that's one time where I felt that method was warranted and appropriate. The dog gradually decreased his inhibited behavior as he figured out that everything was indeed still allowed except for staring, stalking or killing. For the average dog, average situation, I would never want to use an e collar so much, or create an inhibited dog.


What I see CG, is you're giving a good example of making Slam's point. Whether or not you followed Sgt. Banned's description of a method or a different technique, inhibition was no big deal. Him being happy was not as important as the avoidance that was needed. He got over it and like you pointed out, you wouldn't want to use it so much that he'd shut down all the time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You're right Steve.

And I'll just add that although there are certain times when I feel like the ends justify the means for training like that I am not overall a fan.

I think we should love our dogs and think hard about it and whether it is the right thing and whether it is effective when we do stuff like that 

It's been awhile since I read the starting post in this thread but suffice it to say I have left classes and not gone back because of hitting, telling, dogs running away and hiding from their owners on recalls...I just don't want to see that stuff. I do dog sports because it's fun and my dogs think it's fun.

He will sometimes get a correction at dock diving if he is being a jerk in line to jump. Because I can't lose control of him and he is a big dog who could over power me. 

I'm not drinking the koolaid anymore but I still think we owe it to the dogs to achieve what we can by the most humane methods available


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> Can the issues seen in dogs like the one chip mentioned be a reflection of the methods used or perhaps the wrong method/tools for that particular dog? Ive known dogs who exhibit the same behavoir chip describes with no ecollar training, a neighbors schnauzer does this and has had no training of any kind.
> 
> I chose to use an ecollar correcting for disregarding known commands. I've looked into methods Lou, Larry Krohn and others use and have a basic understanding of how it works, but have not seen dogs trained with them that I know of.


Nigel, the issues seen in dogs are not because of the tool but the method applied. Avoidance, lackluster performance, submissive dogs can be seen by a poor handler or trainer that doesn't understand the effects that compulsion has on a dog. It can be seen by simply overbearing handlers that use a flat collar and leash on a handler sensitive dog. 

The problem is not an E collar or prong collar per se, it is the over use of compulsion with out the proper understanding of praise and reward. 

I use an E collar, prong collar and a nylon slip collar, sometimes all on the dog at once depending on the training progression. Different collars can produce different results with different dogs. Regardless of the tool used one thing never varies or fluctuates; the praise and reward for the correct behavior. 

Nigel, my comments below are in response to your question. Please do not think any of the following comments are directed at you, they are not. I am going to be a little blunt in my responses about the use of E collars by folks that do not know how to properly train dogs, but advocate their use. 

If you looked into Lou's methods you would see where it is compulsion based and he actually advocates not praising dogs when they are correct. For someone to say or even think that his E collar method is not based in compulsion is ridiculous. _(that has been said in this thread)_ To say that the "dog learns to turn the stim off" and it is not aversive is really putting lipstick on a pig. The big claim by those that endorse this training and novices fall for it. Teaching a dog to sit by "stimming" it, is really the work of an imbecile. Claiming the dog enjoys the "stim" is really idiotic, if the dog enjoyed the stim from the E collar it would certainly ignore it and work right through it. 

The bottom line is that compulsion used incorrectly breeds avoidance. Compulsion with out praise and reward is a horrible method of dog training. I will give one type of exception where using compulsion primarily may solve a serious problem, rattlesnake proofing and not chasing live stock or horses. 

This is really no different than the dolt, Gary Wilke who "bonks" poor unsuspecting dogs over the head. Another poor use of compulsion and the same effect will be seen by dogs trained by that method. So bonker, E collar, prong collar, what ever the tool can create sad, unhappy, unmotivated and scared dogs when not used correctly.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have used Lou's method of training for my dog. But I chose only to use the method to train recall. All the other commands seemed easier to train without electric. My dog has one of the best attitudes a dog can have, for obedience and tracking. He is half golden retriever so he Genetically has a soft bite so we don't bother doing bite work. I was going to train my two German Shepherds with his recall method but thus far haven't felt that I needed to. We do enough ipo style obedience that they just never questioned me when I call them. Whether they're on a rabbit, Squirrel, each other they always come back. 
When I trained my mix dog I was new to dogs and he wanted to chase Squirrels and rabbits ignoring my recall. So Lou's method stopped all that. I will say that to this day if I say von Mir whatever is going on that dog will get back to me just as fast as he can.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> Nigel said:
> 
> 
> > Can the issues seen in dogs like the one chip mentioned be a reflection of the methods used or perhaps the wrong method/tools for that particular dog? Ive known dogs who exhibit the same behavoir chip describes with no ecollar training, a neighbors schnauzer does this and has had no training of any kind.
> ...


I'd just add that when I used Lou's crittering method with my dog, I did use a stationary prey item (a goat or chicken that was caged or tied so I could control it) and I did do a lot of foundation work with lower levels of stimulation than I would say equates with "bonking" style. At that time I would say my dogs stress level was okay. 

Later I did do a few bigger corrections because the dog understood at that point but could still be triggered. He REALLY wanted to kill stuff. It was at that point that I felt he became more inhibited. 

I apparently missed the part about not praising because I praised and gave food rewards throughout the process.

My personal definition of a dog of mine being inhibited is nothing compared to what I have seen in other dogs. 

I am sorry to have put that dog through that. But I did not feel I had a choice under the circumstances. Other than to euthanize him which surely plenty of people would have done. 

In hindsight, because I can look at his life and say yeah, he had a rough patch with some unpleasant training, but besides that he had many many happy years before and after. He never had another kill. He was truly happy and died loved in our arms of cancer and we wished he would have been with us a lot longer. 

I am not sorry I did it because I can see that big picture.

I don't think it's impossible that he handled it better because in general he knew he was loved and respected and that we cared for his wellbeing and he and I had a deep bond before and after the e collar bootcamp.

in general, I totally agree with everything Slamdunc says...this issue was as heavy handed as I have ever been on a dog of mine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> For someone to say or even think that his E collar method is not based in compulsion is ridiculous. _(that has been said in this thread)_


Oh ... so now it's "someone" and "thinking is a crime???" OK then but for the record what I have said is I found the information on "Lou's" site confusing but I trust the author. Beyond that I have no opinion but ... in as much as I know someone using it ... I can ask. They mentioned something about "life help??" I have no idea what that's about??? But ... this aside ... this I find "interesting??"



Slamdunc said:


> I use an E collar, prong collar and a nylon slip collar, sometimes all on the dog at once depending on the training progression. Different collars can produce different results with different dogs. Regardless of the tool used one thing never varies or fluctuates; the praise and reward for the correct behavior.


I have found only one trainer online that uses "multiple tools at the same time??" Sean O'shay with "Gus" this guy.:





In a Q&A Sunday episode he was walking Gus, with sigh ... an E-Collar a Prong Collar and a DDC??? He did say that he used the DDC on a Traffic Leash for corrections. Slight upward pressure to stop a behaviour. Granted AFAIK ... it was just with that particular dog ...but it struck me as "overkill??" So my question would be why would you use multiple tools on one dog????


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I am using Lou Castle e collar method. He mentions praise but says it is your job to decide how and when praise is necessary. My pup 8 months I see no signs of shut down what I do see is clear understanding and an over all appreciation of the clairity. That said we are going very slowly. Mostly because this is my first dog training experience. Its not like I am putting him loose on a beach saying here and turning up the dial or putting him on a long line with a prong collar and correcting him. I see nothing inhumane about the protocol. For people like me the protocol and Lou personally helping me along the way priceless. 
I don't understand nor see how it is a bad training for my dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Apex1 said:


> I am using Lou Castle e collar method. He mentions praise but says it is your job to decide how and when praise is necessary. My pup 8 months I see no signs of shut down what I do see is clear understanding and an over all appreciation of the clairity. That said we are going very slowly. Mostly because this is my first dog training experience. Its not like I am putting him loose on a beach saying here and turning up the dial or putting him on a long line with a prong collar and correcting him. I see nothing inhumane about the protocol. For people like me the protocol and Lou personally helping me along the way priceless.
> I don't understand nor see how it is a bad training for my dog.


Clarity is huge. I think what you would find though, and yes its just my opinion, you could just as easily reach that clarity without ever using the collar like that, the old Dobbs/tritronics stuff. Its not that you're being inhumane, I'm not even implying anything in that ballpark. Just think about this though, a lot of what you read about the "method" makes it sound so subtle and innocuous, that why bother when you can do the same thing without it?

I think its a great tool for corrections. The idea that its great for communication in everything, I don't agree with. I think you can do at least as well with a leash and your voice in most things.Its almost like its a technology looking for a market.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I think its a great tool for corrections. The idea that its great for communication in everything, I don't agree with. I think you can do at least as well with a leash and your voice in most things.Its almost like its a technology looking for a market.


Larry Krohn, for one "Trains Dogs" with and "E-Collar" but I guess dog dependent ... he does use an "E-Collar"but for "Corrections" he uses a DDC, so there is that.

And while I don't use an E-Collar myself ... it's merely because I am kinda anal ... SLL only for me. But I work rescue and that is the only "tool" Rescues will let you use on their dogs! Most rescues ... don't have a freaking clue on how to properly use a "SLL!" 

E-Collar is pretty much established as the tool of choice by uh "Everyone" that deals with difficult dogs ... that I have found?? And as for a "Market" well not much of a problem in GSD world ... but in "Boxer World" thirty percent, of White Boxers are born deaf. And I am on the how for a "Struddell" replacement and the few times, I have seen a Boxer that looks just like her ... they are Deaf?? 

And if I get a Deaf Boxer ... I plan on doing the exact things with her, that I did with my Struddell and that would include ... running off leash in the open desert chasing Jack Rabbits at 50 to 100 yards away and AFAIK ... without the proper use of an E-Collar ... there is no my I could do that and keep her safe?? So for me ... it's personnel.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I think it's important to point out that there are tons of dog trainers who "show their work" in real life, but don't put their stuff online. These are the trainers I trust. Why? Because they individualize their methods to the dog in front of them. Not saying you can't get a basic understanding of how to train normal, everyday stuff from the internet.... goodness knows I've found help with sport training on the internet. But I wouldn't trust a YouTube video to help with aggression. There is a reason why so many people suggest finding a good trainer IN REAL LIFE to help you with your dog when you are dealing with aggression.

As for the OP... I'm sorry you had to witness something upsetting at training. It happens, unfortunately. If you have other options near you, they may be worth checking out. Perhaps you will find a better group out there.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's not really "Lou Castle's" patented method. It's pretty basic compulsion going back to Kohler, just with different technology. 

I'd recommend Larry Krohn's booklet "Everything I know about e-collar training" it covers everything and he talks extensively about maintaining a positive attitude in the dog. 

He also discusses phasing out the collar, and some other details that many trainers skip. Worth it, I think it's $10 or so on Amazon.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aw well, it's the millennium and people learn in different ways. I solved "Rocky's H/A issues with an "Article" I read on Leerburgh. Who Pet's my puppy or dog, it was what I'd always done anyway ... except with my Boxers/Boxer/Mixes and Band Dawg ... I'd always said "Yes Please Do" to my I pet. But what if instead of saying yes, I said NO??? 

And while it was not a H/A dog rehab protocol (I kinda thought Fawley was uh insane upon first read) ... I put my own personal spin on his advice. And that is how I used it. And it worked out fine and while yeah every dog is different ... "that" is what I use with every dog under my care. So I can say ... that I don't care what a dog's history is under my watch ... they won't get a chance to bite "strangers." No "stranger contact" until I see the dog is safe ... "Show Me." No "advice" is cast in stone ... people do stuff. All most owners need are guidelines.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Training needs to be fun for the dog and the handler, with the right methods and tools used for each dog and task. I see less experienced owners get hung up on a method or a tool rather than looking at behavior and motivation.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Bad nite response.

I don't really like to write books but I wanted to wait and look at the responses. Please sit back, relax and let the hackles go down.

I started this thread because it did indeed upset me. There was no reason for this " training" behavior. Yes, I heard some comments as we were moving about. Most not good for the young girl. Being a people watcher I noted a couple people turning their backs as if " I don't want to see this" . I did see the trainer look at these events as if she disapproved but maybe didn't know just what to do. As I thought about the evening when we got home I began to wonder if there isn't something behind the scenes that's not being shown. Maybe " political" if you catch the meaning. I've only seen this girl and her dog at two sessions. Most of the time I'm busy working with my dog and other than being aware of what is going on around us, I'm concentrating on us. I don't socialize much if at all. I saw right away that her dog was at full aleart as soon as they came into the room. This I do keep an eye on as bad events can happen very fast. 

This is a very young dog. Maybe a year or so, a little taller than my Aussie but certainly not heavier. As noted this smothering is a real good way to get bit. I think if she continues beating up on this dog it will either be euthanized or bite someone. Her methods are just all wrong. Now, we have been going to this facility for four years almost every week. I know all the trainers as well as the owner who actively trains and competes. She even does this class on occasion. I've seen each of them work with troubled dogs and be very successful with them. Many times they have individually helped with problem dogs so I'm not at all uncomfortable with them. Yes, I was surprised that the trainer of this evening did not step in. That's why I think there is something else going on. I don't have a clue, so I can't comment more.

I failed to note here that these are advanced classes but not competition level. I call it " street wise". They are perfect for us as we use it for proofing and testing street encounters. We always do the class work but often add our own touches.

Most of the big dogs in these classes are couch potatoes. They are very easy to teach basics for the new dogs and the trainers demo this every night. A good share of people pick up on it and really do practice during the week. These I really applaud. I've seen some really " dumb dogs" come alive and really get with the program. I think even to their owner's surprise. A few only drag their dog around that evening and otherwise do nothing during the week. At least they are out " training" their dogs. 

I don't have a problem with using a prong on virtually any dog. Properly used its a good training tool. We have been to a lot of classes over the last four years and at four different facilities. One I absolutely will never set foot in again for anything. The others each have a specific characteristic I use for training. These three all allow and teach how to use a prong early on. I don't like chains, I don't own one. 

Yes there is a time and place for correction. But it's hard to correct when the subject doesn't know what he has done wrong. He growled at another dog. Bam the correction should be there instantly with a sharp " no" . Does the dog know what " no" means? The correction is too late if it takes you 3 seconds to reel in enough leash to yank on. This is why I use a 12" tab. It's just loose enough for the snap to hang down. Even at my age my reaction time is still well below .2 second. I can apply a correction before the dog finishes his growl with just a flick of my fingers that can be sharp enough to get a Yelp or soft enough for a reminder or anything between. Add a " no" previously taught and it's an effective correction yet not a punishment. My other hand is ready with a praise, treat or pets when the dog looks to me.

I don't have a problem with E collars either.....properly used. I really don't want to get off track on this. It could just as well have been an E collar set on stun. Enough.

I did not talk to the trainer after class. I didn't feel it was my place, it's her class, she should be in charge. As I noted, I think there is something else going on. I can't go any further, I don't have data or proof, therefore no more comments. I may speak to the owner if I can corner her privately next week before class otherwise we are preparing for next week class.

I've been to nearly every training center in the area and I determined that these three best suit our needs. We are allowed free hand to advance as far and fast as we want and to practice and demo our skills.

I want to thank all who have chosen to reply, positive, negative and balanced. Sometimes we get locked into our ways and need to be "shocked" into looking around and reviewing ourselves. Hopefully for the good.

Byron


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ok, someone got carried away and went a little nuts in a class. With all due respect Byron, say something there or get over it.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> There is nothing wrong with correcting a GSD with a prong collar for reactivity or dog aggression, if the correction is applied properly. However, this method is completely wrong, useless and counterproductive:
> 
> "*Anyway the dog is reactive to other dogs. He growled and barked at another close by dog and the girl severely yanked the dog down by the prong collar and literally smothered the dog. He was crying and squealing terribly. She held him down for about a minute all the while the dog was just screaming. *"
> 
> ...


Perfectly stated on all points. Especially on one dimensional trainers. Anyone that thinks "pure positive" is even a thing either has never trained a dog, has only trained an easy dog or is openly lying. It's a myth to begin with. Pure positive is the method of training that doles out punishment in the form of withholding reward (punishment without context, the dog has NO idea what it's doing wrong since there is no proper correction) followed by a reward without context or meaning when the dog gets a behavior right by random chance after a stint of entirely unnecessary frustration for it. The only way to effectively train any dog you ever come across, be it easy or a hard dog is through yes and no. Correction with context (a manual correction timed properly before the bad behavior is fully carried out) followed by a reward with context when the dog makes the appropriate choice, which it can now do knowing exactly what it did wrong to begin with. One way is unnecessarily long and frustrating for all involved, the other largely eliminates most issues both immediately and for the long term. Both end with reward. One with the dog having no real idea for a while how it earned it and the other with the dog knowing exactly what it did to earn it immediately. Enabling it to behave properly in the future making both you and itself happy.

Also hate when people claim correction is cruel and folks that correct their dogs hate their dogs. Correction should never be cruel. If it's done properly it's not cruel at all. Cruel is punishment without context. Cruel is bartering and begging with a dog, teasing the dog with a reward, withholding it and not manually issuing a correction or guidance so that it learns easily how to obtain what it wants. The only requirement for correction is that it be a consequence utterly intolerable to the dog. Intolerable doesn't mean cruel or causing physical or mental harm. Intolerable simply means the consequence of a negative behavior sucks more than the satisfaction of doing that behavior. Embarrassment is intolerable to my kid. So when I found out that my kid had been stealing candy from a hospital gift shop, it was intolerable for them to be taken back and made to apologize to the staff in front of other patrons. Is that cruel? No. Did it harm them physically or mentally? No. Was it intolerable? Of course it was. And it was more intolerable to deal with that than it would be satisfying to get that piece of candy. So they don't do it anymore.

A tool is a tool. It does nothing at all without a user. A prong collar is not cruel and it's also not effective unless the person using it makes it one of those things. I hate when people like this give amazing tools a bad name. And when "trainers" allow that bad information to spread by not stepping in and showing people what they did wrong. The same way that people using a remote collar only ever use it on the "act of god" setting rather than pressure on, pressure off training. Some of the tools with the worst names in training circles are literally THE most humane and effective tools if used properly.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Nigel, the issues seen in dogs are not because of the tool but the method applied. Avoidance, lackluster performance, submissive dogs can be seen by a poor handler or trainer that doesn't understand the effects that compulsion has on a dog. It can be seen by simply overbearing handlers that use a flat collar and leash on a handler sensitive dog.
> 
> The problem is not an E collar or prong collar per se, it is the over use of compulsion with out the proper understanding of praise and reward.
> 
> ...


We trained our dogs using positive methods, but we did have problems with recall with distractions. Our dogs get a tremendous amount of freedom and reliabie recall was a must. We had done a lot of reading before using the ecollar in how we would go about it. We used them with two of my dogs, the other two are not good candidates. The trainer we chose to go with in getting started corrected for known commands. Easy enough to understand and my dogs did well with it, any corrections were over and done. The only lasting effect was now recall under heavy distraction was reliable. I noticed no other changes in behavior.

When I read through sites that advocate using working level stim and having the dog turn off the stim it sounds innocent enough. The level of stim at the working level is annoying at worst from what I can gather. The stim is being used to force the dog into performing an action vs accomplishing the same thing by luring with rewards, so I understand that it is compulsion. How is this in comparison to using a prong and leash pressure in order to gain compliance? Is this essentially the same thing with a different tool? The behavoir chip mentioned got me genuinely curious about results vs methods vs the type of dog being trained. 

I have watched other dogs in class and see which ones are being trained with a heavy hand. Panting when other dogs are not, lip licking and other signs of stress while working out on the floor, of course the handlers actions speak to this as well. My dogs don't do this, they're happy, confident, and very eager to work in what ever it is we do. I've seen people correct focus by grabbing the dog on the side of the neck or reposition them by forcefully grabbing both sides of the neck and this is for OB and rally?? Not something I'd ever consider. I've been accused of being too soft, but I don't care, I'm not concerned about points, it should be fun and building a bond and relationship. 

I was reluctant to use a prong and more so with an ecollar, but as I mentioned earlier it was necessary to get the reliabile recall which can be a life saver. I wanted to give them some freedom and we achieved that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Bentwings1 said:


> I did not talk to the trainer after class. I didn't feel it was my place, it's her class, she should be in charge. As I noted, I think there is something else going on. I can't go any further, I don't have data or proof, therefore no more comments. I may speak to the owner if I can corner her privately next week before class otherwise we are preparing for next week class.


 Hmm ... while "we" appreciate the books we are getting here. We are not the issue, most likely ...you should have skipped that class that day and you'd have not seen that happen and all would be good. 

But "crap happens" you did see it and you found it "distributing." And now since you care ... you're kinda stuck?? If you can and do reach out to her ... we will applaud your effort! But ... don't
expect to much. The thing is they are "paying" a trainer to help them with their dog and apparently the trainer on site ... saw no issues, with what they were doing ... so who is "some guy" ... to tell them otherwise??? 

I'm not saying that will be the response ... it's just a heads up if you try to help them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

That is a good point. 

There are those who find unsolicited advise as a personal offense and things can get ugly real fast with them while others are open minded to the potential pearls of wisdom another may be offering.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

As someone new to the WL's, this thread has been very informative and has certainly emphasized the importance of removing emotional attachment to corrections. Sometimes I think handlers and even some sloppy trainers up the ante on their corrections because of their own personal frustration or anger with the dog for non-compliance. Being able to remain calm while your dog behaves like a total doofus is pretty difficult, especially if you know your dog is capable of the behaviour you believe has been clearly asked for.

Also, @Muskeg, thank you for the booklet recommendation. I think it's important to be able to read something critically so that you can understand why others may be using certain methods, and to take Slamdunc's approach in analyzing the why, when, and where for its application in each situation.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If the poster doesn't want to get involved maybe they can leave an unsigned note on her car with advise mentioned in this thread. 

The book muskeg mentioned I have - I have not read all of it yet but planning to. I'm more of a visual learner. I have a tendency to be a bit to soft and I felt most comfortable having an instructor helped guide me how to use the ecollar. My main goal was to get a reliable recall off lead where max can enjoy all he has to enjoy and in a safe way. This was a challenge as max has a high prey drive and here are many things to chase where we live. So I will always be greatful to the instructor for all her help. 

When out enjoying a romp or stroll and off leash -you are not always engaged with your dog as you would be in a training ring and can be more challenging with a dog with more prey drive. The ecollar had done what I expected it to do -it helped with Max's recall in life with distractions and kept him safe. The other day our other gsd Luna -I called her off from chasing a deer in mid chase she is one years old not much training and no ecollar. Dogs like people are just all so different. With the use of the ecollar I'm able to let max off leash in certain areas that are safe to do so and he gets to run freely ,explore and enjoy life. The ecollar helped me achieve my goal - which prior to I was just spinning wheels. As a plus my e collar even has light at night on it which I use just for leash walks- very cool! 

I do feel bad for the dog in the that is discussed in this thread -I'm not sure if that was truly a one time deal or what, but I do hope the handler accepts and gets help she needs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Chip18,
*So my question would be why would you use multiple tools on one dog????*

It would take to long to explain why I would do that and what each collar does. I am doing a lot of high stress, high demand things with this dog. Some are potentially dangerous and the dog is always on and ready to go. This is not a pet dog that I have trouble walking down the street, hoping no strays to run by. Actually, loose dogs are no issue what so ever. 

Suffice to say, the dog has issues, is extremely driven, very hard and can be very aggressive. As I said previously, different collars illicit different reactions. For obedience and tracking a prong works very well with light corrections as do an E collar. During bite work the slip collar works best. During narcotics training it seems lately that the nylon slip works well to prevent redirection and reactivity. 

There are only a handful of people on here that have worked or trained a dog like this, most have not even seen a dog like this. Trust me, he is not for an average handler or family. Every day brings new adventures. 

_For the record, this is what you said:_

*As "for a member who is no longer here to defend himself and his methods???" It's not for me to decide what people do ... I trusted him and took him at his word. And while you say it's "compulsive" ... that is not what I here ... paws on the ground as it were. *

It absolutely is compulsion based and I know from experience, not "what I hear." . First, Lou did not invent any of the techniques he professes. I have also asked him directly, "If it is not compulsion then it must be pleasurable? The dog has one choice in his system to avoid discomfort, that is it. If it was pleasant the dog would simply ignore it." Lou did not have an answer for once in his life. Teaching a recall by making stimming the dog is most certainly unpleasant. If the dog doesn't respond the stim from the E collar increases until the dog can no longer take it. That is the basis for his system. Sorry, but I have several other techniques that will teach a super fast recall, motivationally and not dependent on any collars or leashes. The dog is also not dependent on an E collar to recall, like what happens when the collar is off. 

There is no doubt that the Koehler method worked and constant stim from an E collar works, it is just not a method that I like, nor need to use. A happy dog, enjoying it's work is very important to me, whether it is a pet, SWAT K-9, Patrol Dog or Narcotics detection dog. I use some of the old Koehler techniques and have for years, some are good if you know how to implement them. I used the "forced recall" with the E collar and stim on one dog recently, because the dog was a rescue and had a bad habit of bolting when off lead. Paired with motivational training it worked and the dog is doing well. This dog with Lou's methods would be a basket case. Muskeg is correct that Lou did not develop his method, he copied it from others, there is nothing proprietary there.

I started this post last night and got busy and left the computer. I'm sure several people have responded since then. While this post is late, I hope it still makes sense.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Nigel said:


> We trained our dogs using positive methods, but we did have problems with recall with distractions. Our dogs get a tremendous amount of freedom and reliabie recall was a must. We had done a lot of reading before using the ecollar in how we would go about it. We used them with two of my dogs, the other two are not good candidates. The trainer we chose to go with in getting started corrected for known commands. Easy enough to understand and my dogs did well with it, any corrections were over and done. The only lasting effect was now recall under heavy distraction was reliable. I noticed no other changes in behavior.
> 
> *When I read through sites that advocate using working level stim and having the dog turn off the stim it sounds innocent enough. The level of stim at the working level is annoying at worst from what I can gather. The stim is being used to force the dog into performing an action vs accomplishing the same thing by luring with rewards, so I understand that it is compulsion. How is this in comparison to using a prong and leash pressure in order to gain compliance? Is this essentially the same thing with a different tool? The behavoir chip mentioned got me genuinely curious about results vs methods vs the type of dog being trained. *
> 
> ...


When I read through sites that advocate using working level stim and having the dog turn off the stim it sounds innocent enough. The level of stim at the working level is annoying at worst from what I can gather. The stim is being used to force the dog into performing an action vs accomplishing the same thing by luring with rewards, so I understand that it is compulsion.

It does sound innocent enough. The problem is teaching such an aversive technique to novices who do not understand the consequences or possible ramifications. Will it get results, sure the dog will want to avoid or actually escape the aversive stimulus. Which in this case is the stim from the E collar. What happens when the dog is confused and does not respond? The stim gets raised until it is intolerable to the dog and each dog has it's own level. Each E collar has different levels and work slightly differently. Response time and levels of stim are also different. This method is absolutely compulsion, it doesn't matter what type of ribbon or bow is wrapped around it. The real problem is not so much in the method, but the reliance on compulsion and not enough praise and reward when the dog is correct. This is especially critical and exactly what novices do not understand. The vast majority of people are quick to correct their dogs, whether it is with a SLL, choke collar, prong or what ever else. Rarely, do I hear people talk about correcting behaviors with positive enforcement and rewards. Rarely, do we ever see posts about praising and rewarding a dog for proper behavior. We do however see a plethora of posts about correcting problem behavior and a lot of responses with various methods of punishment. Too many people feel they need to dominate their dogs, take charge and let the dog know who the boss is. Those are really poor ownership styles, IMHO. I work some serious dogs and we are a team and rarely if ever do I need to "show the dog who is the boss." I gain respect by fair treatment, consistency, adhering to rules and praise when the dog is behaving properly. Corrections are timed perfectly, and once the behavior is over, we are back to having fun. 

Using an E collar and stim to teach behaviors is completely different than using a prong collar or leash pressure to correct a behavior. The leash and prong should be used to correct a dog that disobeys an known command. I would not use a prong collar to teach a dog a behavior that it does not understand, that is unfair to the dog. I teach motivationally, then I train behaviors in drive and motivationally, then I proof behaviors. Corrections do not come into play until a dog understands the command and decides not to do it. That is the big difference. 

A recall under heavy distraction is a function of impulse control, focus and you being more exciting than every thing else around you. This can be trained purely motivationally, and proofed with an E collar if necessary. 

I am not against correcting a dog for disobedience and I am far from soft. However, the corrections must be fair and applied properly. I have no issue correcting a dog for disobedience, lack of focus or not paying attention. The correction is quick and firm and the point is made immediately. The instant the dog is correct praise and reward come at a much higher value than the correction. That is the really the proper way to train.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Once upon a time I had a puppy that thought barking at other dogs was the thing to do. It didn't matter to me why she did this, I immediately gave her a strong correction and that was the last time I had to ever correct her for her behavior with other dogs. She is now 12. 

Another pup, when at the same age -- 4 months, decided barking at other dogs was the thing to do at her first class. The trainer said, you are going to just sit here and feed her treats. 

Nope. Not going to do that. That is rewarding behavior that I do not want. I did not just sit there feeding her treats. We eventually went back in and the next week there really wasn't anything much to say about her behavior. By week three she was not reacting at all.

The last pup that I had that barked on her first night, I just dealt with it, the next week she was fine. She is completely solid around other dogs. 

I think the trick, if you are going to go with a physical correction, is to give a meaningful correction BEFORE it becomes a habit, and then move right on. Don't let the dog dwell in either the behavior or the correction. 

The other method of dealing with reactive dogs involves staying within the dog's comfort zone -- far enough away from the other dog, so that your dog will not react, and you can give the dog treats. So you and your treats are higher in value than barking at the other dog. And week by week you get closer to other dogs. 

I am sorry, but this method allows a dog to hang out in a bad place. If done correctly, a physical correction, and moving on, while at the same time continuing to train and work and bond with your dog so that he builds his trust/confidence in you, the dog does not stay in a bad place at all. He is corrected for obnoxious barking and no, that didn't work at getting a lot more distance between him and other dogs. 

Trainers do not know everything. What this lady was doing was ineffective and should have been stopped. Prolonged punishment, and repeated punishment should not really happen. A dog that is already stuck in a behavior to that extent is going to have to be taken out of class, and worked with its owner in building a bond, through training. The dog needs a break from other dogs. It needs to learn that its owner will keep it away from other dogs, until confidence in the owner and itself is increased, and probably they will have to take time getting closer to other dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @Chip18,
> *So my question would be why would you use multiple tools on one dog????*
> 
> It would take to long to explain why I would do that and what each collar does. I am doing a lot of high stress, high demand things with this dog. Some are potentially dangerous and the dog is always on and ready to go. This is not a pet dog that I have trouble walking down the street, hoping no strays to run by. Actually, loose dogs are no issue what so ever.


Aww crap I got to ask, so are you saying ...you have no loose dog encounters "where you are" and deal with or it does happen and you don't care?? Cause I deal with it but every episode I detail ( for others) on account of it ticks me off! 



Slamdunc said:


> Suffice to say, the dog has issues, is extremely driven, very hard and can be very aggressive. As I said previously, different collars illicit different reactions. For obedience and tracking a prong works very well with light corrections as do an E collar. During bite work the slip collar works best. During narcotics training it seems lately that the nylon slip works well to prevent redirection and reactivity.
> 
> There are only a handful of people on here that have worked or trained a dog like this, most have not even seen a dog like this. Trust me, he is not for an average handler or family. Every day brings new adventures.


 Hmmm OK ... interesting??? So multiple tools on one dog ... is not a strange and alien concept??? OK ... I do have a serious "Plopper Downer" I need to work with ... a "Prong Collar on a short traffic leash" and my standard SLL deal ...just maybe ideal combined with leash pressure forward ...because she simply did not care about the constant gentle forward pressure Boxer/Pit mix so pretty high threshold. Food for thought. 



Slamdunc said:


> _For the record, this is what you said:_
> 
> *As "for a member who is no longer here to defend himself and his methods???" It's not for me to decide what people do ... I trusted him and took him at his word. And while you say it's "compulsive" ... that is not what I here ... paws on the ground as it were. *
> 
> ...


Aww well I had to say something "here" but near as I know there are no "patents" on methods of dog training??? 

If you say Lou used someone else work fine. Near as I can tell Tyler Muto modified Kohler's Long line short line work to "Conversational Leash work?? And I took Frawley's "Who Pet's my puppy or dog" and "Five Golden Rules for Working with Fearful Dogs" by Nicole Wilde and put a spin on them and made my own "Bubble Dog Protocol." And I get reports from the field from real owners of regular dogs with issues ... and they say "Thank You." 

A PO, Balanced, approach as it were and reports from the field seem to say "My Bubble Dog" Protocol" ... works out fine. As for the rest of the "critique??" From me no further comment ... I did find out about the live help bit however and I was surprised??? I don't want to be a tool on this topic, ... so as I am want to say ... I'm done.  

But .... on another topic ... I do need help?? No point in my trying to reinvent the wheel as it were?? I recognize "significant advise" when I see it! And sadly I lost of track of a post you made about "Petting Dogs from above??" Hand over the head ... ironically enough, it was never an issue I saw with Rocky??? He pretty much trusted me so that was good enough but a "Boxerforum" member is reporting at least one observation of the dog ducking from contact with that approach?? What's the deal there???


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Chip18 many dogs don't like being hovered over or touched from above.They are usually much more comfortable with a touch on the throat or chest.My personal theory is it's just an instinctual reaction to avoid the"kill bite".


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said "I gain respect by fair treatment, consistency, adhering to rules and praise when the dog is behaving properly. Corrections are timed perfectly, and once the behavior is over, we are back to having fun."

I feel this bears repeating.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> @Chip18 many dogs don't like being hovered over or touched from above.They are usually much more comfortable with a touch on the throat or chest.My personal theory is it's just an instinctual reaction to avoid the"kill bite".


I do get that ... but there was more???

By the hand over the head measure alone ... Rocky was good! That was the first thing, the first stranger that I allowed to pet him did! After a fifteen minute conversation about "what I was doing with him and then asking me ... well did it work??" I said yes and he volunteered to "Proof my Work." And It went fine. 

But despite that, he was not a dog that I would ask a neighbor to keep an eye on while I went out??? He looked to me for guidance if I was good with x, so was he. He was "people safe" but not "people friendly." So "hand over head" not much of a test for me. 

So I guess I'm wonder if hand over head is something a dog can get over if it's there??? I tried a search but the first thing I saw said use "treats." And yeah I was out, I don't use treats with people, so I don't advise it. But I do remember "Slam's" post and meant to keep track of it but I lost it. 

And now ... the situation has reared it's head, on Boxerforum. The puppy is recovering from the 100 people in 100 days approach and the head over head seems to be a remnant??? He was keeping an eye on the puppy at a gather and saw him duck from an overhead approach. It wasn't an issue but it was something he noted. 

And another member with an otherwise "issue" free dog ... noted the same behaviour?? I would have thought ... Rocky would have be doing that but he never did??? So I kinda wanna know ..."what the deal is???"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I guess I never thought it was a big deal.If a dog ducks it's head then just respect that and scratch his neck instead.Samson doesn't duck but Misty always does,and she's the people lover!But I can start out scratching her neck and then move up to her head.
If someone pretends to throw something at me,I always blink and cringe a little even though I know they're just playing.Instinct.Another more stoic person would not.That's the way I see it.I'm not understanding why it would be an issue or a concern unless the dog is obviously afraid or something.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Chip18,
You asked:
*Aww crap I got to ask, so are you saying ...you have no loose dog encounters "where you are" and deal with or it does happen and you don't care?? Cause I deal with it but every episode I detail ( for others) on account of it ticks me off! *

I rarely have encounters with loose dogs. On the rare occasion that I do, I simply give a stern command to the loose dog and move on. Or I use the strobe on my flash light and move on. In the scheme of things in what I do, loose dogs are of little concern. My dogs are trained to ignore other dogs and everything else going on around them if I say "watch me." I have zero tolerance with dog aggressive dogs and my dogs know it. I have one dog aggressive dog, he is now 11 1/2. He has never barked or growled at another dog while we were working or taking a walk down the street. He has never got off at another dog at our K-9 training and I can safely work him off lead around other dogs and in close proximity to other dogs. He is focused on me or the task at hand and will simply not look at another dog. 

I've had all kinds of dogs from pitts to rotties to chihuahuas charge fences or tied out on chains when tracking by their yard or down alleyways. My dogs will not stop working to bark, explode or fight wth another dog. For what I do, that is not an option for my dogs. I suppose that I really don't care or it really doesn't bother me as I don't see barking dogs as a big issue. Dogs bark, the vast majority are harmless and really do not want to fight. As long as my dog is under control, it limits the reaction of other dogs. 

"*Hmmm OK ... interesting??? So multiple tools on one dog ... is not a strange and alien concept??? OK ... I do have a serious "Plopper Downer" I need to work with ... a "Prong Collar on a short traffic leash" and my standard SLL deal ...just maybe ideal combined with leash pressure forward *"

I would probably just use a flat collar on the dog you are describing, a "serious plopped downer." Leash pressure forward will not work with a dog like that. A prong might not be the right approach either. I would probably just walk behind the dog and give a slight tug back and to the right. I'd make a circle around the dog or change direction and give a slight tug backwards, encourage and keep moving. I do not have an E collar on my dog every day, but I do use a prong and nylon slip collar daily. I haven't used an E collar with him in months, but I may go back to it over the prong. Some fine tuning is always needed. 

"*But .... on another topic ... I do need help?? No point in my trying to reinvent the wheel as it were?? I recognize "significant advise" when I see it! And sadly I lost of track of a post you made about "Petting Dogs from above??" Hand over the head ... ironically enough, it was never an issue I saw with Rocky??? He pretty much trusted me so that was good enough but a "Boxerforum" member is reporting at least one observation of the dog ducking from contact with that approach?? What's the deal there???*"

Many dogs do not like having a hand placed over or on their head. The easiest way that I can make the point to people when doing a seminar, demo or in training; is to walk around and take the palm of my hand and rub it in the face, ears and hair of the people present. It is especially effective to do to a bunch of cops that I really don't know, because they have a funny reaction to a stranger messing up their hair and rubbing a hand in their eyes, nose and ears. I find it amusing and that is really all that matters. The point is, if you do not like a stranger rubbing their hands in your face, eyes, nose, ears and messing your hair up, your dog probably doesn't like it either. This is a good point to make to children. 

I must caution readers not to go up to a random group standing on a corner or a the first cop you see and try this. I am very experienced at this and know how to do this with out getting punched or arrested. 

Many dogs do not like strangers standing over them and they do not like strangers touching their face or bringing a hand over their head. It is a good way to get bit. The dogs I train and work with would absolutely bite a stranger for doing this. 

A good rule is to avoid the eyes, ears and nose when praising or petting your dog. I'm sure many people do this, but think how much you would like it if your boss praised you by messing up your hair and face palming you. it diminishes the desired effect of the praise and reward. This is important when training because it could inadvertently release your dog, cause it to break a stay command or become over excited. Even more important with hand shy dogs. I hope that answer your question?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

NerdicEclipse said:


> Perfectly stated on all points. Especially on one dimensional trainers. Anyone that thinks "pure positive" is even a thing either has never trained a dog, has only trained an easy dog or is openly lying. It's a myth to begin with. Pure positive is the method of training that doles out punishment in the form of withholding reward (punishment without context, the dog has NO idea what it's doing wrong since there is no proper correction) followed by a reward without context or meaning when the dog gets a behavior right by random chance after a stint of entirely unnecessary frustration for it. The only way to effectively train any dog you ever come across, be it easy or a hard dog is through yes and no. Correction with context (a manual correction timed properly before the bad behavior is fully carried out) followed by a reward with context when the dog makes the appropriate choice, which it can now do knowing exactly what it did wrong to begin with. One way is unnecessarily long and frustrating for all involved, the other largely eliminates most issues both immediately and for the long term. Both end with reward. One with the dog having no real idea for a while how it earned it and the other with the dog knowing exactly what it did to earn it immediately. Enabling it to behave properly in the future making both you and itself happy.
> 
> Also hate when people claim correction is cruel and folks that correct their dogs hate their dogs. Correction should never be cruel. If it's done properly it's not cruel at all. Cruel is punishment without context. Cruel is bartering and begging with a dog, teasing the dog with a reward, withholding it and not manually issuing a correction or guidance so that it learns easily how to obtain what it wants. The only requirement for correction is that it be a consequence utterly intolerable to the dog. Intolerable doesn't mean cruel or causing physical or mental harm. Intolerable simply means the consequence of a negative behavior sucks more than the satisfaction of doing that behavior. Embarrassment is intolerable to my kid. So when I found out that my kid had been stealing candy from a hospital gift shop, it was intolerable for them to be taken back and made to apologize to the staff in front of other patrons. Is that cruel? No. Did it harm them physically or mentally? No. Was it intolerable? Of course it was. And it was more intolerable to deal with that than it would be satisfying to get that piece of candy. So they don't do it anymore.
> 
> A tool is a tool. It does nothing at all without a user. A prong collar is not cruel and it's also not effective unless the person using it makes it one of those things. I hate when people like this give amazing tools a bad name. And when "trainers" allow that bad information to spread by not stepping in and showing people what they did wrong. The same way that people using a remote collar only ever use it on the "act of god" setting rather than pressure on, pressure off training. Some of the tools with the worst names in training circles are literally THE most humane and effective tools if used properly.


Nerdieclpse....very intelligent and well written post, devoid of emotion and sanctimony!??


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> The point is, if you do not like a stranger rubbing their hands in your face, eyes, nose, ears and messing your hair up, your dog probably doesn't like it either. This is a good point to make to children.


...and their (too often) clueless parents! I've been doing my own variation of this for years --- simply by holding an open hand less than an inch from their faces and saying, "This is what you look like to a dog when you do that. Don't like it much? Neither do they." Then I show them how to politely meet and greet a strange dog. Course, I've had less need to do that since acquiring the Wild Child...>

More importantly, I want to thank _everyone _ who wrote a 'book' in this thread. It's been an enlightening and enjoyable conversation to read. I've even saved the entire thread to reread and think about later. 

Aly


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Aww crap I got to ask, so are you saying ...you have no loose dog encounters "where you are" and deal with or it does happen and you don't care?? Cause I deal with it but every episode I detail ( for others) on account of it ticks me off!
> 
> Hmmm OK ... interesting??? So multiple tools on one dog ... is not a strange and alien concept??? OK ... I do have a serious "Plopper Downer" I need to work with ... a "Prong Collar on a short traffic leash" and my standard SLL deal ...just maybe ideal combined with leash pressure forward ...because she simply did not care about the constant gentle forward pressure Boxer/Pit mix so pretty high threshold. Food for thought.
> 
> ...


Its a position of extreme leverage/control and thus dominance and it's also where predators naturally attack their prey if they can. (The top back of the head / base of the skull)

Dogs learn to be wary of giving up this position from wrestling with their litter mates. 

It works on humans too btw, you can grab somebody by the base of the skull and jerk them around like a ragdoll. It's NOT a fun position to be in even with a physically shorter/weaker opponent. 

I would NEVER let someone touch me there if I could prevent it unless I had deep trust in them or I knew them to be no threat whatsoever. 

I don't see why dogs would be any different.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Slamdunc said "I gain respect by fair treatment, consistency, adhering to rules and praise when the dog is behaving properly. Corrections are timed perfectly, and once the behavior is over, we are back to having fun."
> 
> I feel this bears repeating.


Absolutely agree. What I have a problem with is that in some corners of the internet, E collars, Prongs are sold as the ultimate in solving your dog's problems. These are tools that will work but timing is everything. And I despair because I have seen people who can't even fit a head collar properly. These tools are only good if the owner takes the time to learn how to use them properly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs are dogs, people are people. There is a football commercial where a bunch of guys are watching the game and the one on the end of the couch is petting the dog's head. The dog moves away and another fellow comes in the room and sees the spot the dog was in, and sits down. The man on the couch absent-mindedly tousles the man's hair. Awkward moment. 

The dog was perfectly fine with being petted by the guy. He was sitting there getting pets. And many dogs love to be petted, even on the head. Not many adult humans like being petted by anyone. 

Dog's like to roll on dead things. If a human were to do that, we would be thinking "crazy" or "serial killer." 

Dogs like to sniff private areas on canines and humans. Humans don't do this. 

We are not dogs. Dogs are not humans. Some dogs enjoy pets. Some dogs are happy to get pets from strangers. GSDs tend to be more aloof, do not buddy up to strangers as readily. But that doesn't mean they cannot be expected to tolerate most of what humans dish out. 

I think way too many people make excuses for poor behavior from their dogs. Either they do not want to believe the dog is not sound, or they did a bad job of socializing/training/leadership with the dog. It is to the point where people are suggesting that the correct behavior of a GSD is to not allow unsolicited attention/touching. A GSD should not solicit pets from strangers, but they should stand their ground, they should accept the berry check, a hand on the head, back, butt, hands on the paws and ears, checking of dentition, and they should NOT attempt to bite the judge. 

This is not to say that a dog might not be trained to guard/protect/not allow the above from just anyone. I maybe can see how a dog used as a patrol dog might be conditioned from early on to act a certain way. But for pet dogs, that you all raise from a puppy on up, if it can't let someone it doesn't know pet or handle it's head, paws, ears, etc., I would not be too proud of that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Misha111 said:


> Absolutely agree. What I have a problem with is that in some corners of the internet, E collars, Prongs are sold as the ultimate in solving your dog's problems. These are tools that will work but timing is everything. And I despair because I have seen people who can't even fit a head collar properly. These tools are only good if the owner takes the time to learn how to use them properly.


I am no fan of prong collars, and I abhor e-collars, but I would recommend either before a head collar. Ah well, we don't have to get into that conversation. Most tools can be used or abused, but dogs are far more likely to be injured in a head collar than they are in any other type of collar, including a choke chain. And they call them "gentle leaders" or "Halti-collars." And their purchase and use is often encouraged by people who prey on the gentle-training mindset.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Apex1 said:


> I am using Lou Castle e collar method. He mentions praise but says it is your job to decide how and when praise is necessary. My pup 8 months I see no signs of shut down what I do see is clear understanding and an over all appreciation of the clairity. That said we are going very slowly. Mostly because this is my first dog training experience. Its not like I am putting him loose on a beach saying here and turning up the dial or putting him on a long line with a prong collar and correcting him. I see nothing inhumane about the protocol. For people like me the protocol and Lou personally helping me along the way priceless.
> I don't understand nor see how it is a bad training for my dog.


I went to Lou's site to re-read the intro and my take was the same as yours concerning praise. He leaves it up to the owner as they know what works best for their particular dog.

Hope you can follow up as your training progresses, I'm interested to see what your experience is.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> I've had all kinds of dogs from pitts to rotties to chihuahuas charge fences or tied out on chains when tracking by their yard or down alleyways. My dogs will not stop working to bark, explode or fight wth another dog. For what I do, that is not an option for my dogs. I suppose that I really don't care or it really doesn't bother me as I don't see barking dogs as a big issue. Dogs bark, the vast majority are harmless and really do not want to fight. As long as my dog is under control, it limits the reaction of other dogs.


Loose dogs for me ... are not an issue for my dogs. They do as they have been trained under such encounters, which is to "Stay" and do "nothing," while I deal with it. Rocky ... was particularly "bored" with our first two charging dogs encounter ... until I slipped on the ice, while defending him??? I guess at that point he was like ... well ... I've not seen this before ... perhaps I should make presence known now??? 

It was epic and I was stunned??? But ignoring dogs under all conditions is just something I do and expect from my "dogs." Since the year 2000, but for others ... "Bailiff" did out line an approach to achieving that "Do Nothing Dog" and this time I kept track, for others. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8627474-post4.html

It's not how I've achieved similar results, but it makes sense. My dogs don't have an issue with, loose dogs. Loose dog encounters ... tend to tick me off! I don't want to deal this "crap" kinda thing. 




Slamdunc said:


> I would probably just use a flat collar on the dog you are describing, a "serious plopped downer." Leash pressure forward will not work with a dog like that. A prong might not be the right approach either. I would probably just walk behind the dog and* give a slight tug back and to the right. *I'd make a circle around the dog or change direction and give a slight tug backwards, encourage and keep moving.


LOL ... "yessss" exactly! It was a "correction" equivalent to Bailiff's "Fasten Your Seatbelt" car analogy but instead of compliance ... my passenger went ... screaming from the vehicle???? 

In anycase at the Vet's office they don't use a Flat Leash and regular collar. They use a SLL and unlike theirs "which is thin and narrow" mine is not. I was the only one that could get the dog to move ...at all. And as I use a "SLL" a regular collar would have made no difference. The only difference between it (SSL) and a regular collar, is the little tabby thing, in my view. But in retrospect ... I should have suspected "plotting Down" was going to be the case??? As that is what the did when "corrected."

As when I fitted the SLL and sungged it high and firm ... there was no response from the dog at all??? I usually get a response, right there and I wait for the dog to settle down and stop struggling and I wait and say nothing and they usually, stop struggling ... stand still ... and then, offer a sit. And I say OK and off we go ...typically ... less than 5 minutes. And no further issues, and yes a "Slight tug sideways" ... is all that is needed ... "typically." That happens time and time again but with Brea ... it did not??? 

And yep SLL but I did not start with one. Boxer 101, a Flat leash and regular collar is how I learned to walk a dog properly. They gave me a SLL at Boxer Rescue ,it took "Zero Transition time for me to use "properly." Brea ... simply did not fit the norm for acceptable behaviour ... now I know. 



Slamdunc said:


> "*But .... on another topic ... I do need help?? No point in my trying to reinvent the wheel as it were?? I recognize "significant advise" when I see it! And sadly I lost of track of a post you made about "Petting Dogs from above??" Hand over the head ... ironically enough, it was never an issue I saw with Rocky??? He pretty much trusted me so that was good enough but a "Boxerforum" member is reporting at least one observation of the dog ducking from contact with that approach?? What's the deal there???*"
> 
> Many dogs do not like having a hand placed over or on their head. The easiest way that I can make the point to people when doing a seminar, demo or in training; is to walk around and take the palm of my hand and rub it in the face, ears and hair of the people present. It is especially effective to do to a bunch of cops that I really don't know, because they have a funny reaction to a stranger messing up their hair and rubbing a hand in their eyes, nose and ears. I find it amusing and that is really all that matters. The point is, if you do not like a stranger rubbing their hands in your face, eyes, nose, ears and messing your hair up, your dog probably doesn't like it either. This is a good point to make to children.
> 
> ...


Yes and thanks ... "insight" that's what I remembered! I "tried " to search for "this" but it was waste of time! Pretty much as far as I saw ... it was the use of "treats" ... to help a dog get over it??? he use of treats with dogs with people issues ... does not work for me. And as much as I already "knew" who had spoken to this issue ... why waste time searching.  

On a broader point, "this" was a contradiction for me??? As hand over head approach was not an issue Rocky had??? And yet ... I was "extremely cautious," OK ... "anal" about him and people?? In theory, if he was good with "hand over head" he should not have people issues??? 

So the hand over head ... thing is not really a good indicator of a people friendly dog, I'd say. Because Rocky had not issues with it but he was not a dog I trusted freely around anyone. I served as a clearly house for him ... so good to know, thanks again.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Apex1 said:


> I am using Lou Castle e collar method. He mentions praise but says it is your job to decide how and when praise is necessary. My pup 8 months I see no signs of shut down what I do see is clear understanding and an over all appreciation of the clairity. That said we are going very slowly. Mostly because this is my first dog training experience. Its not like I am putting him loose on a beach saying here and turning up the dial or putting him on a long line with a prong collar and correcting him. I see nothing inhumane about the protocol. For people like me the protocol and Lou personally helping me along the way priceless.
> I don't understand nor see how it is a bad training for my dog.


Well, good luck with your training, I seriously hope it works out ok for you. I never said it was inhumane. 

IMHO, it is a very poor training regimen and mostly needless. It is totally unnecessary to use an E collar to teach a dog to sit or recall. That is my opinion based on years of training and working dogs. You are training your first dog and we all have been in your shoes. I remember the first dog that I seriously trained. I remember the first dog I trained in IPO from a pup. I remember all the things I did right and I really remember all the things I did wrong. 

It may be ok and acceptable to train a pet using compulsive techniques for every thing that you teach it, for some folks. It is not ok for me. I expect more from my dogs, even my pet dogs, I also want more for my dogs. 

I am not against E collars or corrections, I use an E collar. I just don't teach my dogs things by "stimming" them. There is a big difference.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Apex1 said:
> 
> 
> > I am using Lou Castle e collar method. He mentions praise but says it is your job to decide how and when praise is necessary. My pup 8 months I see no signs of shut down what I do see is clear understanding and an over all appreciation of the clairity. That said we are going very slowly. Mostly because this is my first dog training experience. Its not like I am putting him loose on a beach saying here and turning up the dial or putting him on a long line with a prong collar and correcting him. I see nothing inhumane about the protocol. For people like me the protocol and Lou personally helping me along the way priceless.
> ...


So why don't you give us a cliff note version of your recall training. Interested to see how the pros do it.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> So why don't you give us a cliff note version of your recall training. Interested to see how the pros do it.


It is really not that complicate and there are no secrets to it. For my own dogs, I train in drive and I teach the two toy game from pups. That develops a lightening fast recall and a very reliable out. This is really a great way to train it for IPO folks, pet folks or our K-9 handlers. When running a patrol school with new dogs and new handlers this is the first skill that they learn. Here is a dog that I imported from Holland for a client and had for a month to train. A very nice GSD, green, and a medium drive dog. The temperament on this dog is superb, but his drive was low when I got him. Patience and drive building go a long way in developing a nice motivational recall. 






For puppies, I work the recall with treats. It is really simple show the dog a treat and toss it. The puppy runs to get it. Then the puppy automatically returns to you to get another treat. Add the recall command as the dog is coming back. Praise, treat and repeat. It is easy and it works. 

I also use the "restrained recall when training pet owners and have two family members available. One holds the dog, while the other enthusiastically calls the dog. You create some opposition reflex and the dog flies to the person calling the dog. Praise like crazy and reward, then repeat to the other person for the recall. These games are easy and no compulsion is required. You have to have trained some impulse control, capping and the dog has to want to come to you. Patience, praise and reward is really all that it takes. 

Here is Boomer at 11 years old, as a younger dog I clocked his recall at 32 mph.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Just to add, in the first video I posted, there is no fence around that field and no leash on the dog. I did not use an E collar with Zoef, he never needed it. In the beginning I did use a long line just to be safe, plan a and plan b. The long line was not for corrections, just to get him back if I needed to. That is the "cliff notes" version. If you are doing sport with your dogs, definitely avoid the E collar method used on the website we were discussing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

With the motivational recalls and just about everything else really, you get a lot of opportunities to shape things, make mistakes and re-do it and have fun the whole time. You can always go to the e later on if there's a problem, but you may not be able to do the opposite, create a happy, fun recall once you've begun it with compulsion. At best you may be able to put the e away for a while and retrain it, but then you've just wasted the use of the e. There's things that may need a dog knowing they have to do it, period, but you don't have to force a dog to do everything.

11yrs old! That's pretty darn nice Jim.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Steve Strom,
Excellent point! 

Thanks for the compliment on Boomer.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

*The first video in the post above did not work for me

Sorry this is long, I just want to understand, and make recall a success. 

To me Inhumane is defined as without compassion for misery or pain. No one said inhumane, but me. Inhumane is the feeling I was left with when I read *“Compulsion breeds an unhappy dog”* or *“People with limited experience will use those methods and not understand what is wrong with their* *dog down the road”* or *“whatever the tool can create sad, unhappy, unmotivated and** scared dogs when not used correctly.”* I love my dog and if I created a shutdown, spark from the eye gone, unmotivated or scared dog….I would feel about my situation that I was inhumane.

I assume there are warning signs in the beginning and through the training? I like to think I am aware enough to see that my dog is stressed or unhappy and adjust accordingly. Given my limited experience and what I have read in this thread I wonder if this is something that you do not see in the beginning or is something happening I cannot see? I honestly felt I did my homework and could find nothing but happy people who used the training method outlined by Lou Castle. 


Slamdunc said:


> If the dog doesn't respond the stim from the E collar increases until the dog can no longer take it. That is the basis for his system. Sorry, but I have several other techniques that will teach a super fast recall, motivationally and not dependent on any collars or leashes. The dog is also not dependent on an E collar to recall, like what happens when the collar is off.


I honestly hope that the first statement and last will not be the case. I hope with conditioning and clarity, putting the time and quality training into my dog I will get results without ever having to dial up or be dependent on the collar. I wish I could find a trainer or a club, or a step by step program presented like the one on Lou’s Castle site that could teach me to get a super-fast recall motivationally not dependent on collars or leashes. It does not matter to me who invented the process, but that a process exists and it works. Step by step instructions from the beginning to the end on how to train the recall and proof the recall to the point you can trust it. 

I have 12 acres, no fence, my dog is on a long line in the yard he is very responsive whether the e collar is on his neck or not. I can take him off leash into our woods and he stays with me and comes the moment he is asked. He only will go so far away and he comes and checks with me without being asked. 

If I say “Apex you Ready” our cue for play it is amazing his head will turn so fast towards me. I follow up with “Get a toy” lightning fast bolt to a toy. We have a lot of fun together. I can keep him pretty engage during play from the distractions around the home. Say if we are just doing stuff around the yard he sees a cat or decides he want to run off to see someone else in the family 100 yards away, I call; nope he doesn’t come. If I took him to a public place off leash nope he wouldn’t come and stay with me, I am pretty sure he would do what he wanted to do. I have no doubt my dog finds me to be a blast his response time during play for obedience is FAST. 

*How I use that same motivation during play in real life situations when we are not playing when the dog wants to do something else I have yet to figure out. I cannot connect the dots :/*

At 8 months old I have seen some maturity coming. I was concerned that maturity would bring resistance and testing. I see more understanding, more cooperation, increasing bond…with some testing and resistance. I am sure people have better controlled dogs at the same age than I do. I do put a lot of energy into my dog, and have begun to wonder if maturity plays a role and I just need to give it more time? I do not only train with the e collar, every moment is a teaching lesson for the both of us. 

I am really just trying to understand the pros and cons and get to the bottom of the how to. My hope is by next summer I can have my dog off leash in places we like to go and not worry that he won’t come when called no matter the reason. 



Slamdunc said:


> Well, good luck with your training, I seriously hope it works out ok for you. I never said it was inhumane.
> 
> IMHO, it is a very poor training regimen and mostly needless. It is totally unnecessary to use an E collar to teach a dog to sit or recall. That is my opinion based on years of training and working dogs. You are training your first dog and we all have been in your shoes. I remember the first dog that I seriously trained. I remember the first dog I trained in IPO from a pup. I remember all the things I did right and I really remember all the things I did wrong.
> 
> ...


Thank you for wishing me luck and I apologize and I hope I set the record straight on who used the word inhumane. It is unfortunate for us that it is a very poor training regimen in your opinion, when it is the best regimen I have to work with. I respect your opinion and your experience and wish I had the experience or the instructions on how to train a dog to recall the way you do. I really do not want to make a mistake so bad that I damage my dog for life, I believe that is the warning you are making. I do not plan on using the e collar to train everything. I do live with my dog he is well settled in the home. When training with the E collar or any other training I praise which he responds to verbal praise really well and we play afterwards and during. 

I have done most the things in Slams cliff notes version on training recall from the time he was a lil puppy. We work impulse control in many ways, but I do not know what capping is. I think it is more complicated and maybe secrets. We play the 2 ball game every day, correctly idk. I taught the foundation of recall using treats. Restrained recall done. A majority of the time my dog wants to come to me unless he is chasing a cat or wants to do something else LOL. There has to be something I am missing……


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I have no doubt my dog finds me to be a blast his response time during play for obedience is FAST.


You're right there Apex, closer to most everything then you think. When you watch an 11 year old dog recall like that video, thats motivation . He really wants to be where Jim is, and Jim just gave him permission. Keep that in the back of your mind when you read Jim's response.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Apex1,
I am going to post another link to the first video, hopefully this one will work for you. If that doesn't work go to youtube and search for: Zoef von Tiekerhook 10612 "2 ball game" The video was unlisted and I just changed the settings to public. 






You had several questions and I will try to answer them. First, you asked what "capping" is? Capping is simply impulse control, taking drive and channeling it and controlling it. For example, I make my dogs sit and wait when I put their food bowl down. I also make the dog focus on my face and wait patiently before being released to eat from their bowl. The intense concentration and focus, self control and channeling their energy and desire to break to eat is "capping." 

This expands to me going in to a building to search with my dog. My dog must lay very still at the entrance, the dog can not whine, bark or rush in to search until I give the command. The dog must channel all the drive and energy, sometimes you will see the dog tremble with excitement. The trembling, muscles twitching is the outward expression of the self control, impulse control to not bark or break. This is capping. Think of it like a lion waiting in the grass for a zebra to get close enough to pounce. The lion is hungry, excited, agitated but knows that going to prematurely will spoil the hunt. The lion is "capped." It is channeling it's energy and focus and suppressing the nerves and desire to break prematurely. It is basically the internalization of drive into a form we can use. The dog is ready to go, but clear headed. This is an important concept in dog training to grasp, develop and utilize. 

Here is the key to training a very fast recall, you set it up so the dog wants to come back to you super fast. Compulsion will not achieve this, and neither will "Escape training" as Lou recommends. 

The big difference is drive, motivation and pairing them together. The recall is very easy to teach for anyone or any dog. First, the dog has to know that you are fun, you are more fun than anything else around you. That includes cats, other dogs, deer, etc. The dog has to push you to work and want to be with you. 

First, you get the dog crazy for it's toy. You build drive and desire for the toy. I use either a ball on a rope or a kong on a rope. If the dog is a low drive dog, then you use patience, which is definitely needed in dog training. You keep at it, praising the dog for picking up the toy initially, then chasing it, then bringing it back. You keep building on prior successes. Google some videos of my friend, Bernhard Flinks, for drive building tips. I may have some on my youtube channel as well, many are private or unlisted, I will send you the links. 

Keep in mind that the toys I use are "mine" and the dog gets to use them while we train. Then I take them away and they go into my training bag. The toys on the rope are not left with dogs, they are my toys for training and that is when the dog gets them. Another important note, is that the training always ends on a high note. I stop training at the peak of drive and fun for the dog. I take the toys and end the game while the dog still wants to go. This "two toy" game is very strenuous and only lasts about 5 - 7 minutes. Actually, I never do more than 10 -12 minutes of obedience training in one set. I keep things fun, high energy and end before my dog gasses out. 

The "ol' one more time" is a really bad thing to do in dog training. When things go really well, always end on a high note. 

Once the dog has really good drive for the ball, you go to a field. You tease the dog and throw one of the toys. The dog will chase the toy and grab it. Once the dog has the first toy, you run backwards and tease the dog with the second toy. The dog should run back to you automatically. As the dog is already running back to you fast, you say "Here". What you are doing is creating a lasting association in the dog's mind. You pair the command with the behavior the dog is already doing. The dog is running back to you to get the second toy. In the dog's mind, he is thinking "I've got to get to Jim, because he has that really fun toy." "I really want to get to him and get my toy!" As the dog is thinking that and already coming back fast on his own, you say your recall command. The dog pairs running as fast as he can to you with the word "HERE". Here will always mean run as fast as I can to my owner for the dog's life. That is why I posted the video of my 11 year old dog recalling. 

Dogs learn by repetition and it is takes a few hundred reps of a behavior to really become ingrained. A thousand reps and a dog really knows a behavior. If I play this game with a puppy or adult dog and get 20 - 30 reps in a session, I will be up to a thousand in a relatively short time, a few weeks. And every time my dog races to me the word he hears is HERE! That ingrains the super fast recall. I do not say HERE in the house, because my dog can not run full speed in the house. HERE is reserved for working outside. I have now created a life long association and paired in my dog's mind that HERE means run full speed to me. I have also spent hours giving my dog the greatest time ever, playing the greatest game the dog can play. I have over a thousand times rewarded my dog and not once used any compulsion to get him to come flying back to me. 

This is a game I do for the life of the dog as it is like running wind sprints and keeps the dog physically fit. 

Now, as Steve mentioned I will proof this and may use an E collar to correct if my dog does not recall as expected. I can't think of a time when one of my dogs didn't recall. This behavior is so ingrained in my dogs. 

This is why I see no need or benefit to using an E collar to teach a dog to recall. Trust me, I know these other methods. I've been to dog training seminars where they were taught. If I thought for one second it would increase my dog's performance or reliability, I would be using it right now. If I thought I could train a better sport or Police K9 using these methods I would. The fact is, I have seen too many dogs squashed and performances ruined by too much heavy handed aversive training. 

Compulsion must be applied fairly and I do not believe in teaching a dog through discomfort, pain or even harsh verbal treatment. That is just my opinion, FWIW.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks for that post, Jim! Great information.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @Apex1,
> I am going to post another link to the first video, hopefully this one will work for you. If that doesn't work go to youtube and search for: Zoef von Tiekerhook 10612 "2 ball game" The video was unlisted and I just changed the settings to public.
> 
> https://youtu.be/WkeehchqxKQ
> ...


Aww well ... as they say ... it's not what you say ... it's how you say it, so I'll simply reply with ... "Thank You."


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> @Apex1,
> I am going to post another link to the first video, hopefully this one will work for you. If that doesn't work go to youtube and search for: Zoef von Tiekerhook 10612 "2 ball game" The video was unlisted and I just changed the settings to public.
> 
> https://youtu.be/WkeehchqxKQ
> ...


That is an awesome post Jim. Thank you!!!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @Apex1,
> I am going to post another link to the first video, hopefully this one will work for you. If that doesn't work go to youtube and search for: Zoef von Tiekerhook 10612 "2 ball game" The video was unlisted and I just changed the settings to public.
> 
> https://youtu.be/WkeehchqxKQ


Oh and just to this ... I've seen it happen before but if you right click on it (I think) it opens up directly on "Youtube" ... I think ... I saw it in anycase, IT stuff ... your way make it public ... was easier.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Wow. I had no idea....as obvious as it may be to some, it was not to me. I really could not connect the dots, forehead hand...it seems so simple. We can totally do what I saw in that video! 

I am going to put the e collar away and work his motivation this way for the next couple months and see where it takes us. I do not see any damage I was doing with e collar and it was working for us. I will be honest and say it was not fun like what I watched here and it is not fun like when we play. In a heart beat I choose motivation over the e collar. 

I do have a couple questions. 

How important is the my toy thing? My pup will play with me with whatever toy I have, but he does have a couple favorites. We leave toys out he has a few he will entertain himself with. His favorites he will bring to me and invite me to play otherwise he pays them no mind. Most of the time he will let them go or as people call it out on his own, but if asked he will too. 

I am ahead of myself but if the dog associates the come command with playing with you, do you try to always carry toy? 

I am super excited! Thank you for taking the time to explain the finer details. People say so much, so much information available, sometimes it is the finer smaller details that get missed or not communicated that can make all the difference.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I have about a dozen or more kong toys laying around the yard or house. I have about a 1/2 dozen with ropes. The ones with the ropes are the ones I use for training. It is so easy to throw a kong on a rope about 60 yards or more. I do not leave those with my dogs because they show the rope off in about 2 seconds. I go to Home Depot and buy 100' coils of the rope that I use. It gets replaced fairly often. 

My dogs will also play with what ever I have, but the toy on the rope builds drive. If you watched the video you saw the dog jump for the toy and I made him miss. The miss builds frustration which builds drive. When the dog is high in drive I simply hold the toy up and tell the dog "sit." The sit now becomes very fast and motivated, same with the down. 

There is an excellent book, "Purely Positive training" by Sheila Booth. It is on Amazon. I read it years ago and it helped shape my training philosophy. A great read for anyone with a puppy to an older dog, a pet or a competition dog. I'd strongly recommend getting that book. I am not a purely positive trainer, but I do teach behaviors in a positive way. 

I feel it is unfair to a dog to correct or force a dog to do something that it clearly does not understand or has not been trained to do. (my obvious issue with the Escape training and the E collar as lou uses it.) When a dog understands a behavior, like sit for example it has two seconds to perform the command, 1 1/2 seconds for my work dogs. If the dog is not performing the command in 1 1/2 - 2 seconds, then that is disobedience and I will correct for disobedience. 

I will not correct a dog for not performing a behavior it does not understand or has not been trained to perform. I believe that is unfair. everything with my dogs is black and white, there are no grey areas. When a dog performs correctly I praise it like crazy. Like it just ran to me with the winning power ball lottery ticket in it's mouth. 

After the dog understands the behavior and you have worked and trained it, the toy is not needed any longer. I do still play the game with my dogs for conditioning and because they love it so much.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ditto on the book recommendation, it's excellent!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> How important is the my toy thing?


Its not exactly like "This is Mine" I like how its phrased on this Ivan clip, it echoes what Jim was saying. The dog has to want it and you show them how they get it, but the useful part comes with what happens when they get it. Its about the play with you, not the actual toy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> For puppies, I work the recall with treats. It is really simple show the dog a treat and toss it. The puppy runs to get it. Then the puppy automatically returns to you to get another treat. Add the recall command as the dog is coming back. Praise, treat and repeat. It is easy and it works.


I do this too, "find it" - toss the treat, puppy runs after it. When it's just grabbed the treat I call the dog's name, and mark the exact second the head starts to whip around towards me (whiplash turn). Pup runs back for the reward. Rinse, repeat. Later, I add another step. Once the pup gets the game and I can toss the treat a bit further, I turn and run away after I throw it, calling his name. When he gets to me I praise and reward, then toss another treat and run away again. I do this all over the house, and get a very fast enthusiastic response. Repeat until both human and dog are panting. 



> I also use the "restrained recall when training pet owners and have two family members available. One holds the dog, while the other enthusiastically calls the dog. You create some opposition reflex and the dog flies to the person calling the dog.


The restrained recall is one of the very first exercises we do in flyball and something we continue to do at practice since it creates such a fast, enthusiastic recall. At the end of a flyball run, the dog is returning to the handler after retrieving the ball from the box, so it's basically backchaining a full run by starting at the end and working back towards the beginning of a run. We want the desire to return for a reward very strong so we work on it extensively with restrained recalls.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's one of my flyball teammates doing a restrained recall with her young dog - note the level of energy and enthusiasm Mollie uses to engage Antic with the tug:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> There's things that may need a dog knowing they have to do it, period, but you don't have to force a dog to do everything.


^ This. IMO, the more you can train behavior motivationally, so the dog WANTS to comply, the less force you need to use in general. I have no problem with corrections or compulsion, and use or have used prongs and e-collars. If I need to use force, I will. But I think dogs learn better and faster when you set them up for success and reinforce the right behavior, and it's just way more fun for everyone too, dog and human. I want a willing partner, not a reluctant one.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It was a great clear thorough post Jim posted. Teaching was the key word as pointed out. Not that dog are kids but raising them sometimes felt the same in the respect as rewarding what you want. Impulse control as mentioned is just as important as motivation. Throw the ball have your dog in a stay before he retrieves it. We had to work on this. We did much of the video slamdunc posted and Susan Garrett was recommended to me on the forum here. She has great recall videos that are free I think they new set are out now. All this layering takes time. Eventually after we worked with distractions on a very long long lead -I then used a ecollar to proof off leash with distractions -it helped if he decided to blow me off and give a correction off lead far away. He had all the ground work and using the ecollar has not slowed him down or dampened his spirit which is what I love about him. A photo of a family of turkey behind max no ecollar and a video of a recall off leash no ecollar but has had ecollar work. 

https://instagram.com/p/BKQ6K1sgGdT/

https://instagram.com/p/BSR4Hrlleki/


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I can see some of my mistakes after reading Jim's posts. I can check off the same training methods he used though I did not do enough repetitions over a long enough period. I remember my girls jumping a herd of deer and staying put, I thought their OB was solid, 3 deer encounters later they chased and I had no way to reinforce a recall. Luckily they did break it off, but it was an eye opener.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > So why don't you give us a cliff note version of your recall training. Interested to see how the pros do it.
> ...


Thanks, I totally agree with everything in your response. 
I done a lot of the same stuff with my dogs. I done the treats a little different. I would take a handful of treats and have a family member grab a handful. We would start off close proximity show the dog a treat and say come, the other person would do the same. Once the dog got it then we would add distance, then different rooms, then with door open and one outside. Just random "dogs name" come. That gets a pretty fast recall. I used the two ball method a lot. I liked to use it to train recalls along with sits, downs, stays, it's nice when the dog is going bonkers for the ball or tug and still has enough sense to hold a down stay while watching the ball bounce over their head. That has actually made my IPO recalls super easy. I basically just had to adjust to a tight centered front. 
But there was still times with my oldest dog, especially if he was on a rabbit or squirrel he would ignore me. I seen Lou's link on here somewhere and followed his protocol just for recall. Once I got done with it and proofed it with toys, I put him in a situation to try it out for real. Squirrel, Rosko chases after squirrel, Rosko come, he ignored, Rosko Von MIR, Rosko immediately leaves squirrel and hauls back to me. 
So I also agree with that method. So much so that when I got my German Shepherds I ordered a three collar system so I could utilize it for all three. But thus far I haven't trained the Shepherds on the e-collar. I just haven't had to. Their recall is just more reliable than Rosko's was with the food and toy training. Could be that I am more experienced and therefore more effective than I was with him. Could be that were training more advanced stuff and they just understand that they have to listen. 
About every six months I'll take Rosko out and give him a 5 minute refresher with the collar to keep him honest. I have yet to have his e-collar recall fail. With or without the collar on. Maybe he doesn't need it anymore either but it is reassuring knowing that whatever the situation 100% he is gonna bust back and leave whatever else without hesitation.


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