# AKC Petition re:long sit/down?



## luvmygirl (Apr 3, 2003)

Has anyone heard about a petition circulating to change or do away with the long sit and down in Obedience? My trainer mentioned it yesterday. Apparently a Pom was attacked and badly hurt by a Dobie during the out of sight long down at a show in Big Spring, TX (not sure of location). Now some people are demanding changes. They say that ring stewards aren't staying close to dogs in case of probs, etc. Wondering if anyone's heard about this? 

I'm editing my post - just got a link to the post about this. It's from a Golden forum: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=36786


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Terrible situation. 

I've seen bad situations with 2 teams checking in off leash in for SchH obedience, or dogs that leave the long honor down in SchH as well. If I knew the other dog I was paired with had dog aggressive tendencies, I'd refuse to go in with them. Not worth the chance. The catch is, you may not always know. 

Bad thing with AKC obedience is that there can be so many dogs in the ring at once. 

I like the Rally honor, and the UKC honor system. The UKC protection program also has a safer ("just in case") long honor down too.

Is this the first time this has come up with AKC? Seems like it wouldn't be.....

Christine


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

I've heard the discussion has been on and off for quite a while. I seem to recall one or two opinion pieces in Front & Finish over the last year that talked about it and the risks associated with it.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Have not heard about it.

I was showing Kayos in Open and a lady with a Sheltie asked the judge if he could be moved as she did not want her dog next to the GSD. (Scary you know....) The judge refused her, Kayos never even looked at the Sheltie for the long 8 minutes out of sight. 

There is so much of the "I don't want FiFi next to Fang at AKC shows that I figure this is just another one. A well trained and socialized dog should be able to do a Stay next to another dog.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

This is what was posted on another forum with permission to cross post...



> Quote:Hi folks,
> 
> Debbie and I have been asked many questions about Jasmine's attack during the Group Stays. It has been very difficult to discuss the occurrence. But, we wanted everyone know what happened. Hopefully, this will help with questions about the incident.
> 
> ...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It wasn't a dobie actually, it was a Dalmatian.

This petition has been circulating, and the Pom attacked was a 4 year old UD titled dog. The Dalmatian was working on his OTCH.

Ironic.


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## luvmygirl (Apr 3, 2003)

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I posted right after I heard about it and was told it was a Doberman. It was a Dalmatian. What a weird and terrible thing. Wonder what made the Dal go off. Can you imagine how bad the Dal's owner must feel? I would be completely freaked out.

As far as the AKC is concerned, what happens to the attacking dog and his owner in a situation like this?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I posted while umzilla was posting too ,lol

The attacking dog I'm sure is banned from all future AKC events especially since the attack was unprovoked.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't done formal obedience yet but...yikes! Couldn't they compromise and tether the dogs on a 6' lead for the long down? I agree that a well-trained dog should be able to hold the long down next to other dogs in the absence of the owner. Why not tether them as a precaution? The stewards will still have to watch for them getting up, but then they can't run off or lunge at another dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

A dog knows very well when it's tethered and when is not. I think in this kind of situations the problem is not the long down, but the allowance of aggressive dogs to trials.

I don't know AKC obedience very much, but I believe the whole idea is to have a controlled dog after all, if the exercise is taken away you will loose an important part of what you want to test and will win nothing on the long run. I would prefer, if this is happening too often, to ADD another exercise to show how reliable a dog is in presence of their peers.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I watched a Pomeranian break the down and attack a Viszla at an AKC show year before last. That was the deciding factor in me never putting my Kenju or Domingo in AKC (except Rally). They may stay in their down, but I guarantee if another dog broke and came over to them, it would be ugly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai I think in this kind of situations the problem is not the long down, but the allowance of aggressive dogs to trials.
> 
> I don't know AKC obedience very much, but I believe the whole idea is to have a controlled dog after all, if the exercise is taken away you will loose an important part of what you want to test and will win nothing on the long run. I would prefer, if this is happening too often, to ADD another exercise to show how reliable a dog is in presence of their peers.


I agree, but sometimes you don't know until it happens. Like Jackie said that Dal already had plenty of titles/trials so who knows why it attacked the Pom after that long.


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## TMarie (Jul 6, 2006)

Something similar happened to us twice.

Once during out of site downs, a dobe broke and stood right over Jake, and hovered and challenged him. Lucky for all of us Jake kept his down and ignored him. The handler was able to get back in time and grab the dobe.
Could of been scary.

Then another time, different show, also in out of site downs, a cocker got up left the ring, then another dog got up and and went after the cocker, one golden attacked another dog, every dog broke and started to leave the ring, except Jake. We couldn't believe it, it was total chaos. We knew every one of the dogs and handlers in the ring, and they all had a great reputation, so why all this happened, no one knows, completely out of the ordinary.

I do believe no matter how well trained our dogs are, they are dogs, and there is a risk of this type of thing happening. This is the very reason I couldn't wait to get done with open and move on to the utility.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI don't know AKC obedience very much, but I believe the whole idea is to have a controlled dog after all, if the exercise is taken away you will loose an important part of what you want to test and will win nothing on the long run.


I agree with this and I do not want to see the sits and downs go away.

But, having said that, I do have very strong feelings about dog aggressive dogs in obedience (and agility) having been on the receiving end. Last year I did a drop-in class with Starine at a GSD Club and she was attacked by a GSD during the S/Ds. I was standing next to her waiting for the downs when the dog next to me came around my back in a flash and nailed her. After the woman pulled her dog off Star (and this dog had Star on her back), her only comment was "It gets tight in here sometimes." Nothing was said by the trainer and the class went on. A few minutes later there was fur flying again when the same dog attacked a Golden during the Figure 8s. Again nothing was said to the woman and the class continued like nothing had happened.

Since that incident I've given serious thought to this issue and I believe that attacks are going to continue until owners start acting responsibly by keeping their dog aggressive dogs out of trials and matches! I think that in most of these cases the owner knows their dog has a problem, you simply can't get to that point of training and not know. But some people think that their dog HAS to compete, "he's so good after all." Not every dog is meant to compete! There's a reason for these exercises being part of the titling process, the dog must have a stable temperament. 

I also think trainers and clubs are part of the problem when they allow/encourage people to compete when they know there's a problem. They must take responsibility too. I have no problem with dog aggressive dogs being in general training classes under proper supervision by the trainers and on-leash. However, when you get to competition classes and matches where the dogs are off-leash, then trainers and clubs are acting irresponsibly, IMO, by allowing known dog-aggressive dogs to continue on.

So, I don't think changing the obedience regulations will prevent attacks because even with the S/Ds gone, there still will be ample opportunity for attacks at shows. The only thing that will help is self-regulation and if the owners aren't able to recognize or refuse to acknowledge a problem, then it's up to trainers and clubs to step in.

I want to add that I'm not talking completely off the cuff here, because I have a dog-aggressive GSD. She has incredible drive and would make a great obedience or agility dog. But, I will never show her and she will only train off-leash at home. Sure it's disappointing, however, I refuse to put her in a situation where another dog could be injured or worse.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

What are everyone's thoughts on requiring muzzles in these types of group exercises? Obviously bar the dog-aggressive dogs, but sometimes, "dog happens," and a good basket muzzle would help prevent these disasters. No matter how well we think we know our dogs, they may still pull a fast one on us, usually when we least expect it and at the worst possible moment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMWhat are everyone's thoughts on requiring muzzles in these types of group exercises? Obviously bar the dog-aggressive dogs, but sometimes, "dog happens," and a good basket muzzle would help prevent these disasters. No matter how well we think we know our dogs, they may still pull a fast one on us, usually when we least expect it and at the worst possible moment.


I guess I'd be OK with that b/c I agree with Agile and Lican that these exercises ARE important and an important part of training. Honestly, I need my dog to down-stay in various situations on a daily basis as opposed to directed jumping or perfect retrieves...can't say I've ever needed those skills. I'm kind of on both sides b/c of course I have a GSD so others always assume that SHE is aggressive when really she can be very sensitive, so a dog attack on her (or even near her) would probably take us quite a while to get over, unfortunately. I have never muzzled her for anything, but I guess that alone would be good training, should there every be any other reason I'd ever need to muzzle her.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Muzzles would never fly in AKC. AKC is all about public perception and I can guarantee it would never be considered.

And besides, a muzzled dog can still do some damage, albeit not as severe. Several years ago in agility class I saw a muzzled dog take down a Golden. It was quite violent and the owner had a hard time getting the dog off the Golden.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

And public perception should be changed by saying, "Dogs still have teeth, and we want to see our competitors safe." AKC could help in the shift of perception from a muzzle equating a scary thing to an important safety net. But I hear ya, this country still sees muzzles as a sign of a vicious dog. 

What kind of muzzle was that other dog wearing?! If it were a police-grade leather or wire basket muzzle, I'd have a hard time seeing this, but I guess it could happen if it were incorrectly put on or the dog moved the muzzle in relation to its mouth just so. Of course, dogs can still wrestle and use their paws and I'm sure it looked violent, but the damage would not be as severe if the proper muzzle were used. The muzzled attacker should still be permanently DQ'd but the muzzle would have done its job in saving the other dog.



> Quote:I have never muzzled her for anything, but I guess that alone would be good training, should there every be any other reason I'd ever need to muzzle her.


A new exercise in and of itself.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I have never gotten myself together enough to get Bella's CD. But in the many obedience classes I have gone to with all the dogs (except Nina-she is retired from everything stressful







) I have always been amazed at the "eh" attitude toward dog aggression. Or maybe it's my hypersensitivity to it that makes it seem so. 

I could not imagine, in good faith and ethically, ever encouraging a DA dog to be in any competition would be off lead. Yet there we would sit, next to dogs that were just itching for another dog to flinch and they were taking the classes in preparation for competing. EEEK. 

And when you are holding a much smaller dog, believe me, you notice it all the more. In one class Bella was the only large dog who could do group recalls with the poodles. The GSD, Terrier, and Labs were unable to do so-in AKC Novice class. 

When my small dogs are in a class I am on guard doubly so for dogs out of control. It has gotten to the point, after attending so many classes with so many dogs looking to get into it with anyone who glances at them, that I don't even train formally anymore and just work in the backyard with all the distractions of the other dogs playing around them.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Interesting comments. As a long time AKC competitor I know stuff like this can happen. But in all truth I have never seen a dog get up and attack another dog while on stay exercises. I have seen dogs get up and go sniff, or go to the handler or attempt to leave the ring. 

In this case I would assume that AKC will ban the dog. Many years ago my Max jumped out of the agility ring and went after a border collie on the warm up jump. Not excusing Max's behavior but the BC jumped in his direction on a jump that should not have been where it was (it got moved after that) and most likely made hard eye contact with Max. The dog was not injured in fact Max never got his mouth on it, just made a lot of noise. I received a warning letter from AKC that said one more incident with this dog and he would be banned. I chose to retire him immediatley. He has never been on a show grounds since.

In this case, given the severity, I would expect AKC to not give the second chance. 

This stuff does happen, it happens at dog parks too. Who knows what provoked the Dal, something did. It is very rare that dogs truly initiate "unprovoked" attacks. 

Dumbing down the exercises will just put poorer trained dogs in the ring and perhaps increase the chance that an attack could occur. This weekend I spent all day Sat and Sun stewarding in obedince for the Yakima kennel club in Yakima, WA. The obed rings were quite and event free. I heard all kinds of snarling and growling going on from the breed rings. 

For the most part I see few dog aggressive dogs in obedience. Are they truly dog aggressive or just over aroused with poor handler awareness? 

Every judge I have seen has always been proactive with dogs that break stays or go visit another dog. 

Glad the Pom is going to be okay.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kathy your post gives me hope. I can't wait to be ready for the CD. I did rally shows 3 days in a row last weekend and was on edge the entire time b/c of dogs displaying dog aggression (all dogs that were entered to compete), not to my dog, but to others (and some of the dogs doing it are dogs I know, but I'm too non-confrontational to ever say anything). I HATE that sort of thing b/c it makes me even MORE nervous when I'm trying to be calm and composed for my dog so she can have fun in the ring. I hate having to have eyes in the back of my head. It doesn't help that people are literally stacked on top of each other at these shows.


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

I would agree with the muzzle thing, although I also agree that it will never happen in AKC. 

I've been on both sides of this situation (in classes). Just last night a Brittany Spaniel attempted to attack Apollo. We were heeling, made an about turn (so that Apollo was next to the other handler) and I had just given him the "Fix it" to straighten his sit. The other dog launched itself at him, teeth bared and all! I was so shocked that it took me a second to regain Apollo's attention. He didn't react aggressively, but just looked like "What's your problem?" (Which didn't help the situation. LOL).

Luckily, the other owner had her leash balled up and the dog couldn't get near us, just was at the end of the leash going nuts. Apollo gave a shake-off with his body and we re-focused. Unfortunately, the instructors acted like it was OUR fault somehow and said "It doesn't matter whose dog started it." and to me said "You need to get your dog's attention" (He was back in heel position, but they wanted me to get him to front instead to get his attention...which also makes no sense to me, because I already had his attention in heel position). 

Anyhow, just by having GSDs, I have been on the opposite side where people are afraid my dog will attack theirs. There was a comment made earlier in the thread about dog-aggressive dogs and how they shouldn't be allowed and how people can refuse to trial their dog if they see a dog that they think will cause problems. Although I agree with the idea of stopping DAD, I don't see that working out. You never know what might happen when you are with a group of dogs. Even well behaved, multi-titled dogs. And it could be a fluke the first time. I'm willing to give that spaniel the benefit of the doubt. Although I did hear the owner say, "It's a new dog..." as means of an explanation as to why her dog wanted to eat my "new dog" up. Which made me wonder if he frequently does this with "new dogs" in his classes. As for the owners deciding to leave the ring and not show with a potentially DAD, I'm afraid that could lead to Breed Selection in the ring. An exhibitor might walk up and see a Dobe or a Rottie or a GSD and say, "Nope!", never knowing the dog's temperament or abilities.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeKathy your post gives me hope. I can't wait to be ready for the CD. I did rally shows 3 days in a row last weekend and was on edge the entire time b/c of dogs displaying dog aggression (all dogs that were entered to compete), not to my dog, but to others (and some of the dogs doing it are dogs I know, but I'm too non-confrontational to ever say anything). I HATE that sort of thing b/c it makes me even MORE nervous when I'm trying to be calm and composed for my dog so she can have fun in the ring. I hate having to have eyes in the back of my head. It doesn't help that people are literally stacked on top of each other at these shows.


I wanted to add (won't let me edit) that I can't tell you how many times we've walk passed rows of crates and dogs have growled (LOUD, not just a low growl) or lunged at the front of the crate. Maybe it's just me, but if my dog is THAT upset by other dogs walking in front of its crate, I would not be taking her to shows every weekend where dogs are walking past constantly. Sure the dog is crated so it can't actually do anything, but that has to be stressful for the crated dogs and the other dogs getting lunged at. Last summer I was at a show and saw a Boston Terrier in a soft crate and he was literally rolling the crate around, he was so upset! Finally a woman came over and yelled at him, then looked at me and said "oh that's my friend's service dog." I thought, shouldn't a service dog, or ANY dog participating in a dog show, either know better or have an owner with enough sense not to leave him crated if he can't settle down?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Keep in mind, that a lot, a lot, a lot of dogs who act stupid in crates or behind a fence, are NOT like that when out.
I take a sheet and cover my guys crates when out, and usually put our chairs in front of the crates--because they will act like that if FiFi comes over for a look see


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## luvmygirl (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm a novice all around in showing dogs - a CGC, RN and one leg toward the CD - so not a lot of experience, but what I would like to see at least, is fewer dogs in the group exercises. Say 4 - enough to prove you have a controlled dog, but not so crowded. (Christine mentioned something about numbers of dogs earlier) Being all squashed up in the ring bothers me as a human, I'm sure the dogs aren't crazy about it. Not to say I'm so bothered by it that I'm sending "I need space!" messages to my dog, but you know, I'm aware of the close quarters and wish I had another foot or so.  IMO that would ease tensions a little.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1Keep in mind, that a lot, a lot, a lot of dogs who act stupid in crates or behind a fence, are NOT like that when out.
> I take a sheet and cover my guys crates when out, and usually put our chairs in front of the crates--because they will act like that if FiFi comes over for a look see


No, but it's still stressful for other dogs and people, being constantly growled at, lunged at, incessant barking.... I do a lot of work making sure my dogs can settle down in a crate, regardless of where the crate is located and who might wander passed. My younger dog could easily do novice rally, but I don't like how he is fidgeting in his crate and sometimes giving a whine. Kenya used to not like other dogs coming near her crate, now she will sleep IN a crate with her dog friend Macy (a portuguese water dog). They ride to shows together in the back of the car and are always spooning or on top of each other. It's something we worked on just as much as her heeling, fronts, sit-stays, etc.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lies,

I have honestly never thought about it..... My guys don't do it constantly. Generally if another dog comes up to their crate--not just passes by, and to be honest, I guess I always felt it kind of served them right. I would NEVER allow one of my dogs to walk up to another dog, leashed or crated.
Rather than taking over this thread, I may start another and see what others think.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I try hard to work with my dogs on crating. I use soft crates as they are lighter to move and fast to set up but they are less secure. If I am present I DO NOT allow my dogs to agress in the crate. If I leave my dog crated to go check in or use the restroom, shop or whatever, I try to block the front with a chair so my dog does not feel threatened. I do not leave them for more than a few minutes. Keep in mind we have put a protective breed of dog in a spot where it may feel vulnerable with no means of escape so they may bark at a dog near their crate. As far as I know Kayos had only agressed once in her crate. We were at a seminar and the dogs were crated along a wall and our chairs were ringside. A lady with an afghan hound had her dog standing with it's butt literally pushing the mesh in on the crate. Kayos barked once and the lady jumped. Then she complained about the "dog agressive" GSD. She was told to move her dog and not let it get that close. She grumbled all weekend long and finally admitted that she did not even know there was a dog in the crate until Kayos barked. Kay was curled up in the back asleep and got startled when her crate got jolted. It does happen. 

I will continue to compete in AKC obedience. As I said before by and large aggression is rare. I think the bigger problem is handlers get nervous, the dog gets nervous, and it escalates. I also see a lot of handlers holding leashes and visiting with friends and not watching what their dogs are doing. Another story.... I was at the Rose City Classic in Portland about 3 years ago. HUGE show, WALL to WALL DOGS!! I was sitting in my chair with Kayos laying next to me. An agility person came through with her terrier and her hands full, dog is at end of leash (not good) before she could collect it up the dog snapped at Kayos who got up immediately, I told her no and put my hand over her muzzle. The other handler apologized saying it was her fault her dog was eye balling Kay and she did not have it under good control. No harm - no foul. Dogs do stuff and it takes an attentive handler to watch for it and intervene before it escalates. I really was being inattentive too, had I been paying better attention, Kay would not have even stood up, I would have stopped it before that point. 

I am pretty convinced that the stuff that happens at dog shows is not true dog aggression but reflects directly on the handler ability to be proactive with thier dog in a very crowded and high stress environment. 

I am willing to bet, something happened to the Dal, or it was ill, or hurting and it got stared at or something off the wall, but something would have provoked it. We may never know what it was. 

As the rules are now there must be a minumim of 4 feet between dogs in the ring on the stay exercises. It would be nice if AKC considerd increasing that to 5 feet and reducing the number in the group to 8.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1Lies,
> 
> I have honestly never thought about it..... My guys don't do it constantly. Generally if another dog comes up to their crate--not just passes by, and to be honest, I guess I always felt it kind of served them right. I would NEVER allow one of my dogs to walk up to another dog, leashed or crated.
> Rather than taking over this thread, I may start another and see what others think.


I don't allow my dog to go sniffing around other crates, but when we are walking past to get to the ring or out to potty (her attention on me, loose lead) and a dog in a crate lunges and the door and throws a fit, it startles her (I mean, she will actually jump, and sometimes so do I!). I don't think that's appropriate. Not as severe as a dog going after another in the ring, but still....I don't think as an owner it would be OK to never address that problem. The only dogs I allow my dog to visit with at shows are dogs we know, or people who ask if our dogs can visit. I've had crated dogs bark or lunge at me, without a dog. That upsets me because I would think that dog in the crate is probably unbalanced and under stress if it feels it has to constantly display aggression to defend itself. I have seen dogs do this that I see at all of the shows I go to, so I can't even say maybe they are still getting used to show.

Like Kathy said, if I have to leave my dog I put down her front flap. I always use a hard crate with her crate cover that has a front flap so the entire crate is enclosed if needed. I'll ask those sitting around me how she did.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWBut in all truth I have never seen a dog get up and attack another dog while on stay exercises. I have seen dogs get up and go sniff, or go to the handler or attempt to leave the ring.


Same here. I haven't shown in years, (since the mid 80's) but when I was, there were a LOT more competitors than there are now (at least around here.) I was in classes that had from 30 to 60 dogs PER CLASS. (The last show I was at, {in April} there weren't 30 entered in ALL classes combined.) I NEVER saw a fight. And in some of the classes, the dogs were literally on top of each other in the group exercises.

The way I see it, everyone HAS to remember, these are DOGS. No matter how well trained they are, or how many titles they have, they are STILL dogs. And as such, anything can happen.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

FYI I just got my copy of the new obed regs effective Jan 1. Page 22, chap 2,section 28 states "that any dog that attacks a dog or person resulting in injury shall be disqualified". The dog can be reinstated after a period time and lots of documnetation but it is difficult to get that in cases of aggression. 

The term disqualifeid is different from excused. In an excusal the dog can come back and if it happens again they will be disqualified. The dog is excused when it attacks without injury. 

So I would assume AKC will disqualify this dog and it will never compete again.


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## luvmygirl (Apr 3, 2003)

Kathy, does the owner/handler get any kind of reprimand from the AKC?



> Quote: I was in classes that had from 30 to 60 dogs PER CLASS.


Holy moly, here I am complaining about being squished in a ring w/ 7 other dogs - the sum total of the entire Novice A class! Guess I'd better count my blessings!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You get a very polite letter that tells you what the offense was and what will happen if there is a repeat or when you can apply to have the disqualification removed and be reinstated. if there are conditions such as a trainer's assesmnet, vet assesmnet etc that also will be stated. 

I have a letter from AKC after Max's "altercation" with the Border Collie. We were not disqualified as there was no injury but we were politely warned. That happened in Mar 03, even if I took him to another trial tomorrw and it happened the record is still there and we would be disqualified from any future competition.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: luvmygirlKathy, does the owner/handler get any kind of reprimand from the AKC?


This is another example of how the process can work. This is an instance where an initial disqualification was overturned.

This happened with a member of my club. Her Ridgeback left the ring and went bounding through another ring and "visiting" his first time trialing for open novice. At least one participant claimed the dog appeared to act aggressively toward her dog and other smaller dogs. They held a "hearing" right at the event with numerous witnesses, several on both sides of the argument that the dog was acting aggressively or just visiting. The committee moved for a disqualification at the show. Paperwork was given to the participant and was sent to AKC. In this case, the student appealed-in fact was on the phone with AKC before they ever received the paperwork. Seems there was enough differences of opinion or perception from the witnesses and her appeal was given on probation-the dog was not to be entered in another obedience event for six months. At least three AKC judges, including the one in the ring at the time spoke out against the disqualification.

So that is the way the process worked in this instance.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: luvmygirl
> 
> 
> > Quote: I was in classes that had from 30 to 60 dogs PER CLASS.
> ...


Yeah, it was a ZOO. The class with 60+ in it was also Novice A. They had the class split into 2 "groups" and each group had a different judge and were in different rings, competing at the same time. The 2 groups were placed as 1. It was pretty neat to win a class that large. (We got a 198.)


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Ummm what is Open Novice?

In AKC obedience there is Novice and there is Open. 2 different classes. 

I do have to agree where there is no "attack" and no injury and there were conflicting stories I would err on the side of the Ridgie too. 

What if it had been your GSD just looking like a GSD? Someone says it looked threatening but was not. You would want the system to be fair to you. It is not perfect, no system is.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWUmmm what is Open Novice?


That is novice ---- without the open!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

In two decades of showing in obedience trials, I've never seen a dog attack another dog in the stays. I've shown my dogs to 17 obedience titles (CD, CDX, UD) and other than an occasional time when a dog breaks and goes to sniff another dog, there just hasn't been any problem. 

But I have seen obedience dogs lunge at/snap at other dogs during times outside the ring or even in the ring when the ribbons are being given out. Twice my first chow was lunged at (teeth snapping) by OTCH border collies, once IN the ring. And you know why? It's because these border collies were never socialized. They were purchased as competition dogs, taken to classes to be trained specifically for obedience exercises, and not given the opportunity to BE dogs. They had no real concept of how to act with other dogs. They just knew heel and sit and stay and come. When they were specifically under command they did well. Otherwise they were nasty things.

Dogs who aren't properly socialized or who have aggressive problems shouldn't be in an obedience ring, in my opinion. The whole concept of obedience competition, to me, is to have a dog that is well behaved under normal circumstances and can prove it within a competitive situation too. I would love to see AKC, CKC, UKC and any others holding obedience competitions require a temperament test prior to any dog being shown in any event that requires close contact with other dogs (on or off leash). 

While I'm not fond of the out of sight stays (only because they stress ME so much .. *L*) I don't think that the stays should be tossed out. I just wish there were some way to stop people from entering dogs that aren't solid. Of course, there's always the possibility that even with a temperament test a dog will show aggression under the right circumstances, but I think it would help reduce the possibility.

I also think that rally has, unfortunately, encouraged people to bring dogs to obedience trials who are not trained or socialized enough to be in that situation. I like rally, but the rally novice class is SO lax that dogs are qualifying when (to me) they aren't really trained much at all. And that makes the rally novice title worth very little overall. In fact, many dogs that I've seen earn an RN would flunk a CGC. And that's really sad.

I believe that AKC rules limit the number of dogs in a stay to 12, depending on the ring size. In the old days when I first started showing, we would have classes of over 30 even here in Alaska. Now it's rare to see a class large enough to break into two sets of stays. 

We used to practice stays in class and have our dogs so solid that we could have them in a line-up for a down-stay, and I'd place my Aussie at one end while I walked to the other and then I'd have her do a recall down the line of dogs, jumping over each dog! The expectations of obedience back then were much higher than they appear to be these days.

Oh - and this was the Aussie that got accused of biting a judge (wrongly accused). We had completed a utility class (flunked, but she'd performed well overall). I had Lady facing me while I talked to her. She was happy, tail wagging (yes, she had a tail) and the **** judge walked up behind her and tapped her on the rump. Lady turned her head and barked, once (a happy bark, but she was a bit startled) and the judge yanked her hand back and hit it on her clipboard. She stood there for a minute, then told me that my dog had bitten her but she wasn't going to report it. She started rubbing her hand and I was looking at her hand trying to see any kind of red mark (there was none). Then she said she did have to report my dog. I was so upset because I KNEW Lady hadn't bitten her - I was right there watching and all she did was bark once. The judge told me I couldn't show her the next day and that I had to apply to have her reinstated. I asked her "do you REALLY think my dog bit you?" and she was insulted by that, I think.

The following day this judge came up to me when I was with a group of friends, tapped me on the shoulder and motioned for me to follow her. She showed me this tiny paper cut on her finger and said "THAT'S where your dog bit me!" and then walked off. I just stood there staring at her and then went back to my friends and told them what she'd said. And unfortunately that judge was judging open that day, and I had my chow entered in the class. I nearly didn't show, especially after watching the novice people come out of her ring in tears because she was so mean to them (literally in tears - this was one nasty judge). But I decided to go ahead and show. When I came up to the ring and handed my leash to the steward, the judge turned and saw me and said "OH NO!" and then told the steward "there's something between us" motioning to me. I was a bit flabbergasted but said "well, that was a different dog and a different situation, so I hope we can just move on from here". She said "yes, you're right" and then gave me the command to heel forward. Kylee (my chow) was an excellent obedience dog and she took first place with a score in the mid 190's. The judge said to me afterwards "you should be proud of your dog" and I told her I was proud of ALL of my dogs.

Anyhow (now that this is a really long story .. *L*) .. I applied for reinstatement for my Aussie. I gave my side of the story. AKC said I had to have three judges check her out. We had few shows back then and it was January before the next show would take place (the alleged bite had happened in June). I made a 3 hour trip to Anchorage to have these judges look at Lady, and they had me put her in a stand stay and walk away. She wagged her tail happily at all three of them while they each approached her and petted her, and one of the judges commented "aggressive? I don't see how anyone could call her aggressive". And she was reinstated and went on to earn her UD.

Lady had her faults and she was a dominant little bitch at times, but she liked people and she did NOT bite that judge. I had been warned not to show under the judge by another exhibitor who had problems with the judge prior to that, but since there weren't many shows up here I went ahead. Never again! This judge and her husband have been up a couple of times and no one in my area will show under them. She's truly a nasty old lady and probably has ruined the whole obedience experience for numerous novice people.

So that's completely off the topic of dog-to-dog aggression, but describes the reinstatement procedure a bit! *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I'll be damned if I have my dog who is worth more than the vehicle I drove her in out of my sight in a stay and trust her with a stranger. That's not to say I won't stand behind a blind but I want to be able to step out and get control of whatever is going on


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Melanie, I have not titled dogs as you have, but coming fresh out of rally, I agree with your post. Maybe rally and obedience dogs should be required to pass the CGC first? But even then, I've seen dogs with CGC titles that can be nippy and dog aggressive, it just so happens that for the test the handler got them into luring enough to lure them in front of another dog for 10 seconds and then past, so they passed. I see too many people (even some people I know) treating the RN like it's a socialization experiment.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Maxgunnar most out of site stays are within 50 to 60 feet of the dog and if you think you can stop something by looking around a blind as opposed to a tarp 60 feet away think again. 

Stuff happens very quickly and would be out of your control before you could say boo.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Melanie, that was an excellent post. I started in Rally adn moved from that to obedience. Saw (and see) a lot of what you described around the Rally ring. 

I really like your idea of having temperament test before being being able to trial the dogs. Think it could be required of handlers as well?-JKing


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I feel that stewards and the judges need to be much more careful in the group stays. I'm sure all of us who have done this sport have seen dogs that should be pulled immediately...dogs that are sniffing, moving, making eye contact, starting to inch toward the dog next to them. I know the judges want to give everyone a chance, but I've been standing there thinking, get the dog, get the dog-because you know what's going to happen.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I've had judges correct my dog for me...no issue with it.

Heck, it reinforces to my dog "It doesn't matter if you can see me...someone out here will correct you...behave yourself!"


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Samuel, if they temperament test the handlers, I may not be able to trial my dog anymore! *LOL* But it would be good to test the handlers on basic dog control to make sure that they CAN handle their dog before they get to go out through crowds of other dogs.

Trish, I agree. Most of the dogs that I see break certainly show signs ahead of time. I think that everyone (judges especially) are trying not to show any bias, however, and walking up to a dog that is acting "iffy" may keep him in his stay when he would have failed otherwise. It's kind of a catch-22. They would have to change the rules to allow judges to pull a dog just for showing signs of potentially breaking, and that's a hard call. I'm sure there would be tons of complaints over that.

In all my years of trialing I've never had one of my dogs break and go to another dog. I've had my share of laying down on the sit-stay (my first chow blew her whole first year of open class doing this) and one of my shepherds tried to find me on the out-of-sight stays (going directly to the gate where she was stopped by the steward). If I had a dog that I didn't think was really temperamentally sound, or who I thought would be likely to break a stay, I just wouldn't trial her in any event that required an off-leash stay. 

Melanie and the gang


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Melanie that is exactly why I retired MAx. Although his issue happened in a agility I was NOT going to trust him out of site with a bunch of other dogs. So he has no CDX either.


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## lfitzner (Aug 27, 2007)

As someone who has a dog aggressive male (not a GSD), I agree that the responsibility is with the owner. Quiad has his RN but we will not attempt a CD. I have tried prenovice three times. Once was fine, another time he was showing too much intensity toward the Golden next to him ( a breed he particularly dislikes) during the sit and I removed him. The third and last time was at our national specialty. We placed in the class, but while they were sorting out the awards, he focused on the male next to him. We got our ribbon and out of the ring before anything happened. A title or award is not worth the risk of injury to someones dog. A dog that is unsafe should not be in the ring.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

One of the most unstable, dog aggressive dogs I have ever seen was my brothers liver spotted Dalmation. The dog was dangerous, so I believe it easily.

I do CDs on my dogs, I have thought about the CDX - but the stays are what has stopped me. I know my dogs will not break a stay in the ring (or wouldn't when I was training AKC regularly!) - but a couple of them would not take another dog in their face lightly either. We had a female Chi in my AKC group who would break and confront anything big - even a big male Rotti! If she got crunched, you know the cruncher would be blamed - and really, in the stays, she SHOULD be safe even if she breaks! No one should have to worry that another dog will eat theirs...even if it does not obey.

Last year, at a run through before a big obedience trial, my female (going for CD leg) was next to a border collie who was well on his way to an OTCH - all the stays were being done together as it was a training exercise.... the BC broke when a dumbbell was thrown in the next ring and jumped backward, SITTING on my female's rump!!!! She looked at me and I repeated the Plaitz command, and did not make a big deal of it while the BCs owner ran back from outside...he was retired shortly afterwards I heard, as he kept breaking the stays over a dumbbell thrown in the next ring.

I was going to do a CD on Basha - but she has a dumbbell fixation too! She was going over a jump at practice when a Boston terriers was thrown and she went for it as it was moving. She is the least dog aggressive dog I have ever seen - but I don't have the time to proof that!

Lee


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I've learned that I'd rather NQ by protecting my own dogs than letting something happen. If I think a dog would be ready to get up and get into my dog's space, I'd go get my dog, same if I felt I needed to train in the ring








The problem with group stays in the CDX is you can't see what's happening. That's when you really depend on the judges and stewards. I still think they need to be more proactive, too bad if someone gets upset with them. It's a safety issue really. I'd like to see those 2 exercises removed, would rather do an honor while the other dog does obedience.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

In Strauss's very first trial he was doing marvelously....until the long down. He was positioned next to a Doberman bitch that had JUST come out of heat, and was getting to nosy for his own good.

I recommanded his down stay...he ignored me. The judge casually walked up to him, grabbed his collar, popped him, said "NO! LEAVE IT! STAY!" and walked away again.

Afterwards I walked up to him and....thanked him. He smiled and said it was really too bad, because up until that point he was in second place. He complimented me on having such a nice working dog, and having a Shepherd that he wasn't wary of (he told me he would have NEVER done that to another GSD and would have told the handler to pick up their dog). He said I really should be proud and with some maturity he'd be a great dog.

Let me tell you...Strauss thinks twice before bothering any other dogs in the ring, bitches or not. He instead opts to lay his head down, rather than risk another correction by a stranger xD

And the problem with an honor is that there is nowhere near enough room in an Open ring FOR a dog to honor. The clubs use up all the extra space for the broad jump and wall jump


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## Shalimar (Aug 28, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: agilegsdsBut, having said that, I do have very strong feelings about dog aggressive dogs in obedience (and agility) having been on the receiving end...[snip]...
> 
> I also think trainers and clubs are part of the problem when they allow/encourage people to compete when they know there's a problem. They must take responsibility too. I have no problem with dog aggressive dogs being in general training classes under proper supervision by the trainers and on-leash. However, when you get to competition classes and matches where the dogs are off-leash, then trainers and clubs are acting irresponsibly, IMO, by allowing known dog-aggressive dogs to continue on....[snip]...
> 
> I want to add that I'm not talking completely off the cuff here, because I have a dog-aggressive GSD. She has incredible drive and would make a great obedience or agility dog. But, I will never show her and she will only train off-leash at home. Sure it's disappointing, however, I refuse to put her in a situation where another dog could be injured or worse.


I got a rescue Australian Cattle Dog in 1998 as an obedience/agility propect. Discovered rather soon that her hips wouldn't hold up to the agility. As we worked her obedience was spectacular but so was her dog aggression. 

On leash in class I had no problem but there is no way I would have trusted her to pay attention to me off leash if Spot across the ring was looking at her funny.

What blew my mind though was the few people in class who would tell me that with enough work she would be "fine" to compete with. To me knowing how high her prey drive was and how short her fuse with other dogs was there was no way I would have risked anyone's dog by taking her off leash in public. But had I been a newer dog owner or one more inclined to take suggestions of professionals I would have put her out there and that to me is scary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So far, I have only seen a few issues. A Ridgeback went over to a curly coated retriever bitch and literally lifted her out of her sit to sniff her. A dachund went to play with a Doberman. Mostly though, no fighting. 

A utility dog (GSD) did attack a golden that was walking by, no blood, but it was scarey and odd. Stuff does happen. 

If I had to temperament test Tori before showing her in Rally we would not show. She could not do the supervised separation yet. She can manage Rally though, and she is NOT dog aggressive at all. 

This year stuff is different. If you go visiting on the long stay, you are excused from the long down.


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## Riptide (Jun 28, 2008)

This is the kind of thing that scares the living daylights out of me. My Sheltie is already shy and fearful as it is - if she were to be attacted in the ring, I would be more than devestated. It's taken so much work to help her get to where she is now and trust me, it hasn't been easy. 

At agility class, one of the handlers didn't have a hold on her boxer and the boxer came after Kayla on course - not aggressively, but she was in kind of a prey drive mode. That freaked Kayla out so much! We also encounter several aggressive dogs just on daily walks/runs...all of this combined turned her into a reactive dog in an instant. I could not trust her around other dogs for an extremely long time. It also didn't help that she has such an intense herding instinct and has a tendancy to hyperfocus on everything that moves and wants to chase it. I had to pull her from herding classes because she would hyperfocus on the other dogs running and that just set her off. I stopped doing agility at all with her for 9 months just to get her under control and try to get her confidence back. I'm glad I did - she's not perfect with other dogs, but she will not lunge or display aggression anymore which is a HUGE step for us. Each of the 17 titles we have earned since then is a reminder of everything we've been through. I'm so proud of my girl. I hope we continue to make progress around other dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if you remove or muzzle the group excersizes, you will see more dogs attacking at shows outside of the rings. People will bring their dogs to shows long before they are ready, and the whole show atmosphere will degrade. Also, if you are using titles as a criteria for breeding, and you know longer have to accomplish that part of the testing, dogs will be bred that should not be bred in my opinion. 

I do not want to see the long sit and down stopped. I think it has a place. If we must, penalize people whose dogs misbehave more stiffly. But do not stop something that has been going on probably as long as the sport.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI do not want to see the long sit and down stopped. I think it has a place. If we must, penalize people whose dogs misbehave more stiffly. But do not stop something that has been going on probably as long as the sport.


I agree & Melanie hit the nail on the head











> Quote: *If I had a dog that I didn't think was really temperamentally sound, or who I thought would be likely to break a stay, I just wouldn't trial her in any event that required an off-leash stay.*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We discussed this at training class today. What was suggested was either a 3 minute down or a 1 minute sit as the group excersize and no one knows which it is until they get there. 

That wouldn't be a show-stopper for me. The dogs would have to be able to do either.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

But see, if AKC changed it to only include one stay, then an AKC CD would be less of an accomplishment than a CD earned through an organization that requires both stays. Somehow I don't think that AKC would go for that .. *L*

My dogs have earned titles in AKC, CKC, ASCA and UKC and had to do both a sit and down stay in every venue. While the problems do happen, they really are rare and I think that instead of changing the requirements for a title, there should be some other way to deal with it. Maybe a temperament test for any dogs that have any indication of a problem (people would have to report them, I suppose). Maybe a separate set of classes for those who prefer not to do the stays (with different titles to indicate so). Or maybe small dogs in a different class so that small and large don't have to be in the same stays?

While I find the out-of-sight stays to be one of my dogs' nemesis's (that's probably grammatically wrong .. *L*), I still wouldn't want them to change it. It's part of the accomplishment of the title.

Melanie and the gang


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

This past weekend a Giant Snauzer(sp?) got up on its sits and wanted to say hi to a pom and of course both dogs got up and the judge had to grab them before anything bad happened.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And nothing bad may have happened at all but the judge was proactive enough to insure it didn't.


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## TrackingPuppy (Feb 13, 2005)

This question has come up as a thread on the Front and Finish list and there has been considerable discussion about it. Because there were many unverfied complaints about the group exercises having problems with dogs attacking, the AKC instituted the following policy in January:

Judge’s Group Exercise Report 
Use this form every time you judge Novice or Open 
One form per day is sufficient unless you have more than 5 dogs that “leave the place where the dog was left” 

Record ONLY the dogs which leave the place where they were left. Dogs that simply lay down on the sit, stand in place on the sit, sit on the down or stand in place on the down do not need to be recorded. 

If none of the dogs leave the place where they were left in any of the Novice/Open classes you judged that day simply fill in the name of the Show, Date, Judges Name, Judges Number and Sign the form and put it in the Judges Book. 

When recording dogs that leave the place where they were left please be sure to complete the form in its entirety. The class, armband #, which stay it was (1st or 2nd) and sit or down in addition to which actions you took needs to be completed. 
The information supplied by judges’ on these forms is being entered into a data base. The data will be used to assess the number and types of actual problems associated with dogs performing these exercises.

<span style='font-family: Fixedsys'><span style="color: #CC0000"> As you can see, they are attempting to see what the actual incident ratio is. Of course, if you are the owner of a the dog being attacked, even one incident is too many. It seems that most of the problems stem from small toy dogs being seen as bait by bigger dogs -- and for this reason, many toy breed owners won't show in Obedience, just in Rally. I regret that this petition is unlikely to do any good. There is a process for making changes to the regulations, and it does not allow for petitions. There is an obedience advisory committee that presents proposals to the Board of Directors. Any change, such as eliminating sits and downs, should be processed through the Obedience Advisory Committee. Contacting the AKC directly gets you a polite reply telling you to do just that. </span></span>


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yeah I got my F and F today and Bob Self had a good commentary about it.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Sydney is never the type to go bother another dog, but she would get mighty pissed off if another dog comes and invades her space on a sit or a down. I was at run thru's once and this lady had a Chesapeake Bay retriever and while hanging out while others were doing their run thrus, i overheard her talk about how he always breaks his stays to go to the other dogs.

So of course, when we go in to do stays, shes right next to me, but i figured she was gonna keep him on leash, but nope! She didnt, and just like she said he ALWAYS does, he gets up and heads towards Sydney. I had to call Sydney to me before a fight would break out.

I couldnt believe this lady, she knew this dog has this problem, but she didnt even leave the lead on so she can stop him and correct him! I guess she'd rather he get bit in the face and a fight breaks out!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I wonder how she thinks she's going to correct him without a leash. 

Ciana had a chance at some practice sit and down stays last weekend. I put her about 6 feet from the other 5 dogs because I didn't know what she'd do. I moved about 6 feet in front her her and she gets up, looks at me and at the other dogs as if to say, "Mom! There's dogs here!", and she moves over 5 more feet. Looks like 10 feet is her space limit. After that she did her stays wagging her tail waiting for me to come back. I'll never put her in a trial for a CD, but we'll train for it as if we were.


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