# Cane Corsos kill jogger in Michigan



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Cane Corsos kill Livonia man out for a jog in Lapeer County | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

There is a photo with this article, of one of the dogs at animal control... He looks to me like either they really roughed him up, or he has some major skin issues going on, mange or a severe yeast infection, something. The Free Press has more information in this article than our TV news had, but I am sure there is more to the story, a history with these particular dogs. I can't help but wonder why they were running loose. The TV news did show the area where it happened, and it looks like a rural wooded lane, a perfect place to jog. Not last night! Poor man and his family.

Susan


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Condolences to the family, what a terrible way to go. We go through cycles here with loose dogs, many encounters but never any physical injuries.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

absolutely terrible.

the dogs were said to be well muscled -- I think what you are seeing and interpreting as " really roughed him up, or he has some major skin issues going on, mange or a severe yeast infection, something." , is his brindle colour.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

that dogs is brindle he looks fine though
agree with carmon it is just his coloration

rest in peace mr sytsma


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

He does look to have something on his skin.....hopefully he'll be dead in a few days so it won't bother him much then......horrible dog.....that poor poor man......


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

the dog is not horrible. the owners are or the people that bred him are. dogs aren't horrible or mean, I thought people on this board knew that. 
and yes, this was horrible. no one deserves to die like this.

ETA that's a mean thing to say, hope he's dead and it won't bother him. let your anger be directed to those that let him roam or bred his aggressive parents or whoever made him lkke this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just as horrifying is this one that was linked on that page. An American Staffordshire Terrier kills a seven month old baby. The step-grandma was babysitting for the day and her dog killed him. In Dayton, Ohio. 

Dog attacks, kills 7-month-old baby in Dayton | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

The Cane Corso's in the story are terrible dogs. They killed someone that wasn't threatening them. They are a menace to people, and their owners have allowed one of them to attack someone else. They need to be euthanized. What are they waiting for?

And, the owners need to be facing criminal charges.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

I live in Michigan, and our news stations are saying that they are bull mastiffs. Either way, sad. Runner dies after dog attack in Metamora | News - Home


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

lalachka said:


> the dog is not horrible. the owners are or the people that bred him are. dogs aren't horrible or mean, I thought people on this board knew that.
> and yes, this was horrible. no one deserves to die like this.
> 
> ETA that's a mean thing to say, hope he's dead and it won't bother him. let your anger be directed to those that let him roam or bred his aggressive parents or whoever made him lkke this.


Spare me......the sooner these dogs are PTS the better........mean.....


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> And, the owners need to be facing criminal charges.


Absolutely......Surely this will happen right???


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

owner needs to 110% be charged. when you own a large breed dog you need to be extra vigilant. this owner was extra negligent


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sparra said:


> Spare me......the sooner these dogs are PTS the better........mean.....


I didn't say he shouldn't be. place the blame where it belongs though

ETA yep. mean. and ignorant


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sparra said:


> Absolutely......Surely this will happen right???


Pretty sure I did that already......


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm not about to make yet another thread all about you........carry on.......


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

For every dog attack, there are 20 times that perpatrated by humans. That Animal is much more scary and way more prolific in hurting or maiming or killing. They seem to "own" mistreated and violent animals, including their own children. I hate to hear of such an event and I feel terrible for the family.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Police said the dogs, which are being held by animal control, have been involved in previous bite cases.


From that second link. 

Unbelievable. 

Oh here: 1 of the exotic dogs that killed Livonia man attacked woman in 2012 | Detroit Free Press | freep.com the previous bite case - not a bite, but an attack. 


> “They definitely react when people are inside the room. … They’re aggressive dogs,” Parks said.
> Katherine Houpt, the principal consultant of the Animal Behavior Consultants of Northern Michigan and a board-certified American College of Veterinary Behaviorist, said aggressive behavior among Cane Corsos is not uncommon.
> “They are banned in some countries, like England,” Houpt said. “I don’t think they’re known for attacking familiar people as much as unfamiliar people. These dogs were obviously not under control.”
> Houpt said experts recommend that only someone who has a great sense of responsibility should own a dog of this breed.
> ...


I've never seen a picture of a Cane Corso without cut ears, so also thought they were Mastiffs. 

Having a dog like that and not knowing (or accepting) they have the potential they do to do things like this is like having a Lamborghini and not knowing it can go fast.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

They don't always have cropped ears. Lucian has his ears and tail.









This story is pretty disgusting. Dogs with bite history running loose is gross negligence and the owner should be held accountable. I can't fathom letting any dog just run around the neighborhood, let alone Fama.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sorry, the dogs are horrible, IMO. I can see (not excuse, but see...) a large breed dog with a high level of prey drive chasing after a jogger or biker and barking, maybe nipping or even biting them, but the type of attack that KILLS a healthy man?! If these were my dogs I would hand them over and never look back, and I'd crawl into a dark hole and never come out. But then again, you couldn't pay me to own either breed (cane corso or bullmastiff) and if my dog had a bite history I'd certainly never let them run at large as a pair.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Sorry, the dogs are horrible, IMO. I can see (not excuse, but see...) a large breed dog with a high level of prey drive chasing after a jogger or biker and barking, maybe nipping or even biting them, but the type of attack that KILLS a healthy man?! If these were my dogs I would hand them over and never look back, and I'd crawl into a dark hole and never come out. But then again, you couldn't pay me to own either breed (cane corso or bullmastiff) and if my dog had a bite history I'd certainly never let them run at large as a pair.


:thumbup: I agree with your whole post.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

You know who else should be held accountable? animal control. They went after another person and nothing was done, that seems like negligence too me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Horrible story. I hope the owner is prosecuted. Joggers shouldn't have to carry weapons to protect themselves, but it is going to be the norm with more and more incidents like this. 

We have friends with Mastiffs....they are mellow and not aggressive, but will bark with intimidation. They are loose on their estate. The slobber is enough to keep me from ever wanting one.
Everytime I pull into the property, they are all over my van because of the dog scent and then I have slobber smears to wipe off.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DH's cousin has a Mastiff. I'm sure he's a nice dog, however, he's a loose with no supervision, no training. And followed me and Seger down the road last night barking and GROWLING. 

I just need to move.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Sorry, the dogs are horrible, IMO. I can see (not excuse, but see...) a large breed dog with a high level of prey drive chasing after a jogger or biker and barking, maybe nipping or even biting them, but the type of attack that KILLS a healthy man?! If these were my dogs I would hand them over and never look back, and I'd crawl into a dark hole and never come out. But then again, you couldn't pay me to own either breed (cane corso or bullmastiff) and if my dog had a bite history I'd certainly never let them run at large as a pair.



I was going to type out a post but this is pretty much exactly what I would've said. Especially the 'type of attack that KILLS a healthy man'. That is harder than appears.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I agree with those that don't blame the dogs. I blame the negligence of the owners and AC. Those dogs are only doing what those people have let them get away with, as with any other behavior.. they were never trained otherwise and therefore did what they wanted, when the wanted as would any other dog on this forum if they were allowed. (not kill, necessarily, but it is simply a behavior that they learned over the years.) 

I do think they should still be put down, and actually have no doubt that they will at this point. They are dangerous dogs and should never have made it past the first attack at the very minimum without proper training and rehoming to an owner who could manage the breed appropriately. 

I have a friend with a Cane Corso with not cropped ears and she is wonderful, not an aggressive bone in her body.. it is a matter, like with every other breed, getting a well bred, and trained dog. 

Prayers are with the family in this time, I just can't even imagine having to be that worried when I go for my runs.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

wyoung2153 said:


> I agree with those that don't blame the dogs. I blame the negligence of the owners and AC. Those dogs are only doing what those people have let them get away with, as with any other behavior.. they were never trained otherwise and therefore did what they wanted, when the wanted *as would any other dog on this forum if they were allowed.* (not kill, necessarily, but it is simply a behavior that they learned over the years.)
> 
> I do think they should still be put down, and actually have no doubt that they will at this point. They are dangerous dogs and should never have made it past the first attack at the very minimum without proper training and rehoming to an owner who could manage the breed appropriately.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I completely disagree with this. I agree that an untrained dog can be a disaster and even dangerous in terms of biting, but I do not believe that the majority of dogs would kill a human if left untrained.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

wyoung2153 said:


> as would any other dog on this forum if they were allowed. *(not kill, necessarily, but it is simply a behavior that they learned over the years.)*





RocketDog said:


> I'm sorry, I completely disagree with this. I agree that an untrained dog can be a disaster and even dangerous in terms of biting, but I do not believe that the majority of dogs would kill a human if left untrained.


Hence the bolded text following. I meant that, it is a behavior... like anything else we train our dogs to do or not to do. Yes it's an extreme behavior, but with proper training and management, these dogs would not have even been allowed to form this behavior. It is a behavior, like any other one, that was created over the years byy lack of training and letting the dogs rule their nest. Therefore I cannot blame these dogs for doing what they did as it's the owners that let them do what they wanted, never trained them otherwise, and left them unattended and unleashed.

Hope I explained that a little better.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I couldn't say "I don't blame the dog" and then say they should be put down. Obviously they are dangerous. They already have a bit history and now have killed a person. There's no chance in you know what I would EVER go near a dog like that, so yes there is plenty of reason to blame the dogs. They are crazy, that is NOT trained behavior. I know plenty of people who are very lax with their dog's training, have no management, no NILIF, let their dogs do whatever they want and yet these dogs do not have a bite history including a kill.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Exactly. There is more in that dog(s) than just lack of training.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Yeah, no. Even if I let my independent boy go with no training whatsoever and do whatever he wants, he would not kill a human. I try not to deal in "in a perfect world" or "what if" or "if only". The fact is, these dogs don't need rehabilitation. They need to be recently deceased.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

my point was that none of this is the dog's fault. it's not his fault humans selectively bred for aggression and created this breed, it's not his fault he was allowed to roam, I don't know what else led to this but none of it is his fault. he's an animal. instincts. 

yep, he has to be put down, he can't live in our society. he is paying with his life for human mistakes

since he's already paying with his life it's low and ignorant to say stuff like his skin problems won't bother him because he's dead

ETA I was replying to lies last post. didn't read anything else


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Hence the bolded text following. I meant that, it is a behavior... like anything else we train our dogs to do or not to do. Yes it's an extreme behavior, but with proper training and management, these dogs would not have even been allowed to form this behavior. It is a behavior, like any other one, that was created over the years byy lack of training and letting the dogs rule their nest. Therefore I cannot blame these dogs for doing what they did as it's the owners that let them do what they wanted, never trained them otherwise, and left them unattended and unleashed.
> 
> Hope I explained that a little better.


I agree. I do absolutely feel that this was a horrible thing to happen, my thoughts and prayers are for only the jogger and his family, but I also do not blame the dogs. At the very least, they should have been managed, and never allowed to run loose, especially since a similar incident had happened before. I believe that the owner(s) should be prosecuted to the nth degree and given the worst punishment under the law.

I trained horses professionally for years, and learned that without a doubt a horse with dangerous habits was made that way by humans. In all those years I knew of only one horse that could actually be called psychotic, and he was eventually shot dead as he was attacking a photographer. 

I truly believe the same about dogs. Granted, as predatory animals they are genetically wired with prey drive, some breeds much more than others, and it must be controlled by training, or managed. The owners of these dogs, who have a high prey drive in certain situations, did neither, and that, to me, is criminal.

Still, the dogs must be put down and I am sure that will happen, but the owners must be punished to the fullest extent of Michigan's laws, imo.

Susan


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

For Liesje, Rocketdog, and Galathiel:

Well our views apparently are a little different which surprises me on this one actually. Everyone here is usually pretty blame human not dog.. no matter how dangerous the dog is. 

I don't think they should be rehibilitated at this point at all. They should be put down because the owners let them get this way. Different breeds have very different tendencies when not trained at all, and that def comes with breeding etc. I know that many of the mastiff breeds are that way... not that they all go on a killing spree if left to their own devices but if as a pup, they were more dominant and allowed to be aggressive toward strangers and greet as they please, that is definitely a learned behavior over the years.. especially if they were raised as a property or guard dog by someone who encouraged that kind of behavior. 

So yes.. the dogs aren't safe and at this point there is nothing anyone can do to rehabilitate them, but that is owner error in how he raised them and what he let them get away with as the developed and what kind of behavior was encouraged..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wyoung2153 said:


> So yes.. the dogs aren't safe and at this point there is nothing anyone can do to rehabilitate them, *but that is owner error in how he raised them *and what he let them get away with as the developed and what kind of behavior was encouraged..


I think this is the point people, including myself, disagree with. Nobody will not contest that this is the owners fault thru lack of management. However, an untrained dog is not going to attack people without first having genetic aggression to do so. In most cases, a dog will choose flight over fight. Same with horses who are prey animals so their instinct is to run rather than stand and fight. Whereas, some dog breeds have been bred to have aggression in them. German Shepherds being one, ALL guardian breeds. These dogs were bred to not back down from a threat. Couple that with poor breeding and you have a dangerous dog.

So I guess in the end it is the humans fault. We bred them, we messed it up and we let them out with no training. But, that doesn't change the dogs genetic at this point in time.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Horses would fall into the prey animal category not the predator. Dogs are completely different.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I think this is the point people, including myself, disagree with. Nobody will not contest that this is the owners fault thru lack of management. However, an untrained dog is not going to attack people without first having genetic aggression to do so. In most cases, a dog will choose flight over fight. Same with horses who are prey animals so their instinct is to run rather than stand and fight. Whereas, some dog breeds have been bred to have aggression in them. German Shepherds being one, ALL guardian breeds. These dogs were bred to not back down from a threat. Couple that with poor breeding and you have a dangerous dog.
> 
> So I guess in the end it is the humans fault. We bred them, we messed it up and we let them out with no training. But, that doesn't change the dogs genetic at this point in time.


I can agree with that.. I think I had it in another response too about traning *OR* management, just didn't restate it here. I completely agree with that.. to me it says that this person had these dogs.. they showed behavior that could should have been trained AND *managed* early on and they just were ignorant or didn't care, possibly both.. and THAT is the one to blame in this situation IMO. I mean yeah, the dogs did the damage, but if it weren't for the negligence of the human, they wouldn't have been given the opportunity.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's the problem with dogs like this....it takes 100% dedication to manage. I lived with a human aggressive dog for year. We never let up, she was never just let out to run, never allowed to interact freely with people. Most people can not, or will not, take that kind of responsibility seriously. 

So, yes, it's the persons fault. In reality, it is always the persons fault. But, IMO, dogs like this that can, and obviously will, kill so easily should be euthanized. A man, a father of 3, is dead. And there is no sugar coating that.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Nope but i am sure some will try to sugar coat it, heck maybe even blame the jogger. What kills it for me is the fact they lit into another person before killing this man. No one knows what sort of like these dogs had, could have been a fine adequate life, their needs were met but they lacked socialization? alot of dogs lack socialization though, farms dogs are not often social butterflys but it does not mean they are out for blood.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How sad. What's unfathomable to me is that dogs like that were left loose and unsupervised in an unfenced yard, even AFTER one of them attacked the woman two years prior. Even if the owner didn't realize how dangerous the dogs were before that, he certainly knew afterwards, and something should have been done then, either voluntarily by the owner or the AC should have stepped in and taken the dogs away.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just one of many reasons, but perhaps the most important, to report dog attacks to authorities and fight them to do something if necessary. A friend's dog was viciously attacked by a neighbor pittie. It took her taking a copy of the dangerous dog law AND pictures of her dog to the county prosecutor. And then the judge only had the dog sent out of town. I guess he figured country dogs are made of tougher stuff?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I couldn't say "I don't blame the dog" and then say they should be put down. Obviously they are dangerous. They already have a bit history and now have killed a person. There's no chance in you know what I would EVER go near a dog like that, so yes there is plenty of reason to blame the dogs. They are crazy, that is NOT trained behavior. I know plenty of people who are very lax with their dog's training, have no management, no NILIF, let their dogs do whatever they want and yet these dogs do not have a bite history including a kill.


Yup....

I certainly won't be loosing any sleep over their impending death.....If that makes me ignorant and mean then ignorant and mean I am.......


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

What a terrible tragedy. 

I don't feel a bit sorry for the dog or the owners. The dogs should all be put down and the owners prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. No question. 

What's also alarming about these incidents is it makes you wonder what's around the corner in your neighborhood. Doesn't sound like these dogs are very vocal as they approach until they are on you. Pretty alarming and scary.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have known cane corsos and bull mastiffs. All that I have met were great dogs with good temperaments. Both have similar traits to a GSD, loyal to their family and suspicious of strangers with the ability to know the difference between a threat and non threat. I don't blame the dogs here either, but I do think owners of these dogs need to know what needs to be done with these dogs as far as structure, training, and exercise. Maybe in cases like this owners need to be charged with manslaughter, instead of a slap on the wrist. I do feel bad about what happened to the jogger, he didn't deserve what he got. Yeah you can kill the dogs that weren't taught any different, but is that going to prevent them getting more dogs that they do nothing with and it happens again?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, one of the dogs got a lady two years ago. The picture I saw really didn't look that bad, though. If one of our GSDs did that, there are some here that would look at the circumstances and increase the management and employ a behaviorist and trainer and up the exercise.

I can't remember what happened so that the dogs were loose in the unfenced yard. Yes, owning a dog with a history, and owning formidable dogs means 100% management 100% of the time. Did Uncle Louis come over and let the dogs out the back door? I don't know. 

I really think that oftentimes people who keep dogs like this, really do not realize the commitment, and the importance to be so vigilent. 

It is a terrible tragedy. The owners should be prosecuted, and a judge and jury needs to look at all the facts in the case and determine what should happen to the people who own the dog.

It could be that the owners of these dogs are people who love dogs and believe in second chances, as many of us do. Maybe they are people that are so enamored with dogs in general and these dogs in particular that they simply cannot comprehend what the dogs are actually capable of. 

There is such a need to place blame, that when the first lady got attacked, the owners may have gone on their Formidable Dog Owner's site, and presented their story and was given seventeen different reasons that their dog was not at fault at all, etc. (I am not suggesting they use that as a defense though.)

I guess my point is that people here in the US, do not like anyone telling them what kinds of dogs they can own, and how many they can own, and any restrictions to owning them. While all dogs can do damage, most dogs do not kill humans. But there are some breeds who can and will. No one likes the idea of BSL, but maybe there should be some sort of requirements when you own certain breeds, breeds who have the power and the history of killing middle-aged men, like this one. 

I just don't think that people who own Daisy air rifles need adhere to the same precautions as people who own AK-47s. Yes, poodles and cockers bite, but when was the last time they actually killed someone. 

If requiring people to take some sort of class and pass some sort of test to get a license to own certain types of dogs would save joggers from being eaten, then maybe it is worth it. And maybe the licensing process should include a background check so that felons, and people with a history of animal cruelty or previous dog attacks would not be able to get a license to own such a dog.

Toss a coin as to whether GSDs should be with the Cane Corsos, Presa Canarios, Pit Bulls, Bull Mastiff's and Rottweilers. I don't think they belong in the group, but my guess is that they would land with them. 

The class/testing requirements would be a clear understanding of what WILL happen if the dog were to attack someone. I am not talking about a training class with the dog. Maybe suggestions for training would be made, but mostly it would be about management, containment, and the laws pertaining to dog attacks. 

And, maybe requiring the dogs be covered by some form of insurance makes sense as well. If someone with a 3 million dollar home lets their dogs run loose and they bite someone, that person's medical expenses will be covered by the homeowner's insurance, and if not, a lean can be put on the home, they can be taken to court, etc. But someone living in a trailer on a plot of soggy land, who is on disability or welfare or who works at the Tasty Place, is unlikely to be able to cover medical expenses out of pocket and taking such a one to court is unlikely to be lucrative. These people should not feel free to let their dogs run wild. And if they want to own a formidable dog, maybe they should be required to have some sort of bond or insurance.

Which pretty much places me in the BSL camp. But you shouldn't have to have liability insurance for an English Setter. But maybe you should be required to have it for a Cane Corso. And it can be like Auto Insurance, if you get a dogs-at-large ticket, or a dog-bite-incident ticket, then maybe your policy should cost thousands of dollars instead of tens of dollars.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Toss a coin as to whether GSDs should be with the Cane Corsos, Presa Canarios, Pit Bulls, Bull Mastiff's and Rottweilers. I don't think they belong in the group, but my guess is that they would land with them.


The problem is that none of these breeds are bred to hurt or kill humans. They all are considered to be loyal to family and good guard dogs and yes GSD's fall into the category, which is a guarding breed. A lot of if has to do with the size of the breeds you mentioned. They are big and powerful. People that can't care for them properly just shouldn't own them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> The problem is that none of these breeds are bred to hurt or kill humans. They all are considered to be loyal to family and good guard dogs and yes GSD's fall into the category, which is a guarding breed. A lot of if has to do with the size of the breeds you mentioned. They are big and powerful. People that can't care for them properly just shouldn't own them.



Some are more likely to kill humans than others though. While their original purpose may not have been to hurt or kill humans, they have the size and the power, and unfortunately, some also will kill humans.

The GSD is not a guarding breed, it is a herding breed. It lands in the herding group, not the working group where most guardians are. Even so, a GSD was bred to both herd the sheep and protect the sheep, and sometimes that would include protecting from humans as well as animal predators. 

The herding requirements of prey drive and some natural aggressiveness/suspicion, independance, and so forth does lead itself to a dog that might be a liability. However, when you take the vast number of GSDs, and place it against the number of people they have been reported to kill, and then look at the population of some of the other breeds listed and how many people have been killed by them, I think it is questionable whether GSD should land in that group.

And is it good enough to say, people who can't handle the dog shouldn't own it. If this was a prong collar thread, you will get you butt handed to you if you say something like that. But, the thing is, most people do not believe they can't handle the dog. 

Was it Cane Corsos or Presa Canarios that the vet tech down in Georgia -- somewhere down south, who got herself killed by bringing another one home to board it. She felt she could handle the dogs, well, she couldn't. But who makes that determination. It is one thing to get yourself killed -- a complete tragedy, and all that. But the dog could just as easily picked someone else to kill. Then we villify the vet tech for allowing the formidable dogs to EAT someone. The thing is, she thought she could manage them, and she was wrong. 

Who determines who can manage a dog?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Just for the record all the other breeds being mentioned so far are part of the Molosser World:
Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

Sooo... when folks are busy throwing all the guard dog breeds under the bus...that link will make it easer for them!

The reference to the Bull Mastiff was my breaking point as my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mixed who loved people would have been deeply offended!

These dogs saddly need to be put down, the owners were irresponsible, incompent and inept! They were sued once that should have been enough! The dogs should be put down and the owner needs to go to jail! Apparently being sued was not enough waring for him to get his crap together!!

Stupid people will do... what stupid people do, sadly that too is part of the human condition!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Just for the record all the other breeds being mentioned so far are part of the Molosser World:
> Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)
> 
> Sooo... when folks are busy throwing all the guard dog breeds under the bus...that link will make it easer for them!
> ...


If my mom didn't pass away a mastiff would have been her next dog after a couple Rotts. I knew someone that bred Mastiffs, wonderful dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There were more dogs and puppies confiscated from the home. More dogs taken from home after deadly mauling of jogger in Lapeer County | MLive.com


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i agree with previous posters. they are horrible dogs that need to be killed. no animal murders for fun besides humans. if the jogger wasn't hurting them, their loved ones or their property i see no reason dogs would chase down and kill a person in the street for no reason or kill them to eat. 

the other side of the debate is wild dogs do the same and it's in their instincts. if you show me one video of wolves or dingos or whatever taking the effort to chase and kill large game then walking away without taking a bite, i'll agree.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

selzer said:


> Ok, one of the dogs got a lady two years ago. The picture I saw really didn't look that bad, though.


There were _two _bite incidents involving two separate people. The dogs were only barely a year old when they bit the woman, and she sustained 3 separate bites. Not just the one. Then a second attack on an older gentleman last November. 

Here is the quote from the 25 year old woman herself: "_He tore my leg in three different places and I had to get medical attention. There was a lot of bloodshed and it was very severe. I had bruising for months and had to endure physical therapy._"

I guess you could say that 'wasn't that bad'.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

scarfish said:


> i agree with previous posters. they are horrible dogs that need to be killed. no animal murders for fun besides humans. if the jogger wasn't hurting them, their loved ones or their property i see no reason dogs would chase down and kill a person in the street for no reason or kill them to eat.
> 
> the other side of the debate is wild dogs do the same and it's in their instincts. if you show me one video of wolves or dingos or whatever taking the effort to chase and kill large game then walking away without taking a bite, i'll agree.


Yes, they need to be put down. 

But they didn't kill for fun. I'm sure there was a reason, territory, fear aggression, just aggression, maybe were taught to attack. I don't know enough but I do know it's not their fault. 

Humans were at fault for this from the beginning to end. At the very least, they were bred for aggression and then allowed to roam. I'm sure there were more that led to this though. 

I fail to see how the dogs can be blamed. What if it was a tiger that killed him. Would everyone say 'what an evil tiger'? Or they'd understand it's an animal that doesn't know good or bad and operates on instincts whatever they are.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

There had to be some training involved with these dogs, because when the First Lady was attacked she said the son called the dog off and it responded immediately. How many dogs without training are going to stop in mid attack?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Tigers are not domesticated.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Tigers are not domesticated.


Neither are some dogs in the wrong hands


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Tigers are not domesticated.


This is a breed created for aggression. What does domestication have to do with it if they're selected for it? 

But That's not even the point. Domestication doesn't give them the ability to reason. They're still animals. If a golden retriever killed I'd say the same thing. Someone messed up on the breeding or something was wrong with him medically. 

They can't be evil by definition. They're animals. They operate on instinct.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Whatever.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dogs are not safe in anyone's hands, and therefore they need to be euthanized. It is not like the death penalty imposed on humans. Dogs don't understand the concept of being executed. They are not left to languish in a cell, looking forward to their date with the grim reaper. 

No one is suggesting the dogs should be beaten and then hung or then boiled in oil for their terrible deed. But to protect society, these dogs need to be humanely euthanized. It is not a punishment for an action. It is not because the dogs are evil. But they are dogs that are willing and able to attack and kill humans, and they have done so, and therefore, they need to be killed.

Whether humans bred them for aggressiveness toward humans, or whether they dogs were specifically trained to attack people, doesn't mean that these dogs should not be euthanized. It may play into the prosecution of the humans involved though.

I looked at the photo of the woman's leg, and it didn't look too bad, but it seems it was a lot worse than the photo showed. Still biting once or twice, on the outside 3 times on an extremity may not be enough for some people to put down a young dog, especially if they wanted the dog for its guarding/protective nature. I don't know that that attack, would have prepared the owners for the dogs to actually kill someone though. To kill someone you have to do more than bite a leg or an arm. You have to go for the torso, neck, head, generally. 

I don't know why they took the other dogs and puppies from the people's place, when they weren't home. That's weird. If they are convicted, and I hope the owner is, then the court might make not owning dogs a part of their sentence, but I am surprised that they removed dogs not involved in the attack, unless they are thinking that the people are deliberately training the dogs to kill humans.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Selzer, you replying to my post? Read what it says first. 

I'm not arguing against euthanasia. They can't live in our society after killing someone and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. 

I'm saying that the dogs shouldn't be blamed. 
It's not their fault. They don't know better. 

You know, since people think that dogs can reason and make decisions. Lets let them vote and give them rights. 

Humans are responsible for everything dogs do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Of course humans are accountable. If they own the dog or are in charge of the dog, or if they go into someone's yard and let the dogs out, then yes, they are are responsible for what the dogs did.

But most dogs will get out of their yard and run about, some will go to the front porch to be let in. Others will go to a near by farm and bother the goats or chickens. Others will chase and attack another dog. Some might even bark and act aggressively toward people. Some might bite or scare an elderly person so that they fall and maybe even die of complications of the incident. But most dogs do not kill humans. 

We do not expect our pets to kill someone. 

My back yard is fenced, but my front yard and side lot, where the car resides is not. And I let my dogs out front to run to my car without a lead on. If someone is crazy enough to walk or jog down my road, I suppose it is possible for my dogs to run barking toward them. I would be shocked if they actually bit someone. But no way would they kill someone. 

Maybe a dog that kills a human is wired wrong. Or maybe they are trained to attack and not stop. But it is not normal for dogs to kill people. It is very odd. And if they do, you can argue that there is actually something wrong with the dog. So you can blame the dog. Though the owners are still responsible. Responsible for keeping a dangerous dog and not preventing something terrible from happening. Responsible for breeding dogs specifically for aggressive tenacity or human aggressiveness. Responsible for specifically training a dog to attack humans -- and there have been some who have done this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> You know, since people think that dogs can reason and make decisions.



Dogs can reason and make decisions. There is proof to that. Anyone that has raised a dog and trained thru shaping where they teach the dog to think rather than react to something can attest to that.

Maybe they didn't in this case and they reacted out of instinct and bad breeding and dogs cant' reason and decide at our level...but dogs most certainly can reason and made decisions.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Dogs can reason and make decisions. There is proof to that. Anyone that has raised a dog and trained thru shaping where they teach the dog to think rather than react to something can attest to that.
> 
> Maybe they didn't in this case and they reacted out of instinct and bad breeding and dogs cant' reason and decide at our level...but dogs most certainly can reason and made decisions.


I second that, they do not dwell on the decisions they make though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dogs are not going to reason and think if they aren't trained or taught to. It still falls on the human. These people that owned these dogs were suppose to also get a fence as part of the first lawsuit and that never happened. Why wasn't that reinforced? These people failed to protect the people around them and their dogs. Without the right training and socialization, these breeds become what these dogs are.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Let me reiterate that since what I said seems to be an arguing point for some...



> Maybe they didn't in this case and they reacted out of instinct and bad breeding


Meaning the dogs acted on instinct. Obviously they didn't hold a meeting to decide on killing a jogger.


And previously...



> it is the humans fault. We bred them, we messed it up and we let them out with no training. But, that doesn't change the dogs genetic at this point in time.


I think that plainly states my position on the matter of whose fault it is.

And dogs can reason and think...if they couldn't then feral dog packs (and all wild animals for that matter) would not be able to survive. Look at elephants, dolphins, etc.

So to say an animal can't reason and think just makes absolutely no sense. Obviously not to our level of intelligence, well to some peoples level of intelligence anyways. But since this is getting way off topic, I think that belongs in its own thread.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

*Update*

Tonight's news report says that the couple that own the Cane Corsos are being charged with 2nd degree murder. They are not citizens, I think they are from one of the South American countries. 

They had another adult Cane Corso as well a litter of puppies. The three adult dogs, the two that killed the jogger as well as the one adult dog at home, are all going to be put down. The puppies have been (or are going to be) turned over to a responsible rescue, where they will be placed in carefully selected homes where they will be handled correctly, socialized, trained, etc.

Susan


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I've read the mastiff forum for two-three years now (not a member), from what I have read I have never know that bull mastiffs to be aggressive towards humans, other animals probably, but not humans. Well bred mastiffs are bred for good temperament, its those bred without a care that should worry people.

I hope the dogs get put down, no matter if their prey drive were triggered or not. A dog that kills a human shouldn't get a second chance. A bite is much different.


Susan, 

Just seeing the update. What does the third dog have to do with the man killed? Why put a dog down that probably didn't do anything wrong?


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

CelticGlory said:


> I've read the mastiff forum for two-three years now (not a member), from what I have read I have never know that bull mastiffs to be aggressive towards humans, other animals probably, but not humans. Well bred mastiffs are bred for good temperament, its those bred without a care that should worry people.
> 
> I hope the dogs get put down, no matter if their prey drive were triggered or not. A dog that kills a human shouldn't get a second chance. A bite is much different.
> 
> ...


Nothing, as far as I know. My sister did see another news report day before yesterday where they said that TWO dogs, the two that attacked that poor man, were put down. Maybe saner minds prevailed and the third adult dog was spared. I'll have to look it up and see what happened for sure.

Susan


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Three dogs euthanized following fatal mauling of a jogger in Lapeer | MLive.com

According to this story it was three dogs, not two euthanized 

I can only assume that the third dog was deemed aggressive when it was removed, I don't understand why it would be euthanized otherwise but sadder and weirder things have happened. There's no mention as to the age of the puppies, if the third dog was the mother of the pups...

Personally I'm leery about the puppies being adopted out, I really hope they screen the homes *extremely* carefully.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

What a sad story, a totally preventable tragedy.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

It looks like the fate of the puppies could still be up in the air:

"County prosecutors initially planned to ask a judge to order the euthanizing of the three adult dogs and eight puppies, but after discussion with the defense attorneys, a deal was struck Friday morning to spare the puppies.

The deal specifies that Lapeer Animal Control will search for a suitable animal rescue for the puppies, or the prosecutor can petition the court to have them euthanized after 60 days.

"We have some leads, but we're still on the search," Hodges said, adding that if shelters are interested, they can contact animal control."

Susan


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You know...when it comes to the puppies...its a bit crazy there is a defense attorney arguing for them. 8 puppies...are just 8 puppies.

Unfortunately, 99% of the dog world still believes its nurture over nature and thinks these dogs will end up just fine if the right person raises them. Meh...at some point, their natural instincts will come out.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

It could set a precedent. Whereas, the sins of the parents will fall on the offspring.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Puppies are being sent down to a breed specific rescue in Texas. (cane corso) They will evaluate and place appropriately. Owners are being charged with 2nd degree murder.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Hopefully the owners will be convicted. Hopefully this will be a step in the right direction, and more owners will be taking on the responsibility that comes with dog ownership. I'd love to see owners charged with property damage or assault, or anything else that comes up when their dogs are in public and whoops, there's another 'accident.'


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