# "Beat her into submission.."



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I am very sickened and tired of hearing this from at least several people.
Telling me that i need to make my dog submit (Physically do it), 
Or for instance, when i said i need to get her a doggy play date, where the dog is similar to her (because she barks at other dogs until they play, not really sure, its a high pitch bark and she IS asking them to play) The person i said that to said, so the doggy play date can "beat her into submission."

??? 

My dog IS very dominant, i am aware of this, and i have been attempting to do NILIF with her, (which i would love ideas for this btw) But if someone says one more time that i need to "make my dog submit" or that i need to "beat her into submission.." I think i will just have to make _them_ submit and see if it works, because they were being way to dominant to me, and need to be beat into submission..


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## Roemly's Mama (Apr 3, 2013)

I can somewhat relate. My former trainer gave me a lot of bad ideas and such because she was comparing my dog to former dogs that she had. So when she saw a trait in my dog that reminder her of her hard headed dog that was horrible to train, and she gave me lots of advice-except that it was wrong! My dog was NOT HER [email protected]! Her methods and such did not work with my guy. I had to find my own way to motivate him. I wasted a lot of precious time doing the wrong thing over and over because I just wasn't doing it good enough. No, the problem was I was doing the wrong thing! 

I know there are traits to every breed but I think it is short sighted when people tend to put a dog into a certain category when they see a certain trait. There are still other factors that make the dogs different from each other. 

I have a great trainer now who understands that dogs are different and have some individual personalities and characteristics. I'm sure my boy and I will be adding letters after his name in the coming years. 

Keep the faith. Ignore the idiots and do what you feel is best for your dog. Everyone has an opinion but that doesn't mean they are correct. Good luck.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The way your dog acts would likely cause an older, just as dominant dog to "beat her into submission." It won't really be a beat down as much of the other dog just grabbing your dog and correcting her in the way that dog seems fit...

I would not allow your dog to bark at other dogs like that. Barking and noise has a way of riling up other dogs, and if that dog doesn't want to play, it will react in a way that neither you or your girl would like. When my dog gets a little bit rough with other dogs, I will physically make him submit if that's what he needs. Trust me...waving a treat in front of his face isn't going to stop him when he gets truly angry.

The advice you're getting from other people isn't terrible...as long as you get a dog that will teach your dog boundaries in a nice, safe way. Right now it sounds like your dog doesn't know what her boundaries are, she's bigger than all the other dogs she plays with, and so the other dogs won't teach them to her. It's actually quite nice when dogs teach each other and especially puppies what their limits are and how to properly initiate play.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if my dog is barking and lunging to play with another dog there is NO WAY he gets to play with that dog until he calms down. if my child is hollering and crying because he wants a candy bar at the grocery store there is NO WAY he is getting a candy bar. "beating into submission" is probably the wrong way to word it but you do need to teach your dog boundaries. if your dog is "very dominant" as you say, then you need to be a strong firm leader or else he'll be that leader for you. if multiple people are saying you need to make your dog submit then he is probably running the show


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree with the others...train your dog...right now he's training you. What you're doing isn't working and on the flip side, it's probably annoying for everyone else when your dog is lunging and barking and you are sitting their saying, "he just wants to play.".....


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Meh... I use that term lightly. I threaten all sorts of ridiculous things to my dogs. If I had a quarter for every time I said "If you do that again I'll scoop your eyeballs out with a pencil and feed them to the cat" I could do laundry for a month. When I say "beat you into submission" I usually refer to a boop on the nose or a thwack on the bottom. And when I say "KILL 'EM, KILL EM!" when my dogs are zooming after each other around the yard I don't really want to have to pick up carcasses. But that's just me.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

Somebody needs to beat those "Helpful" suggesters into submission. My girls do anything I ask out of unconditional love. They love and trust me and know I would never allow them to be hurt or injured. So they will try anything I ask and continue to try till they figure it out. It's all about pack leadership and setting out who is in charge and who is subordinate. No need to shame or strike a dog ever. If you raise your hand at a dog so will you raise the same hand to you wife or children Totally unacceptable and a real show of cowardice. Be a man/Woman and step up or step out...or come pick on me, I'm more your size even though I am in a wheelchair.

Bob


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

marbury said:


> Meh... I use that term lightly. I threaten all sorts of ridiculous things to my dogs. If I had a quarter for every time I said "If you do that again I'll scoop your eyeballs out with a pencil and feed them to the cat" I could do laundry for a month. When I say "beat you into submission" I usually refer to a boop on the nose or a thwack on the bottom. And when I say "KILL 'EM, KILL EM!" when my dogs are zooming after each other around the yard I don't really want to have to pick up carcasses. But that's just me.


We tell ours we will call the gypsies and make them go live and work in the circus for them....

Wheelchair Bob


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Rbeckett said:


> We tell ours we will call the gypsies and make them go live and work in the circus for them....


Oh god, I'm not the only one that threatens gypsies? That's hilarious. I always tell Morgan that when the next band of gypsies comes by, she better be ready. Unfortunately they haven't shown up yet.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Submit? And to say "Yes, sir!" in human language.
They don't know what they are talking about. Never ever be rude to your dog. But, to these fools either, you cannot explain to people how to raise their children, they would do it by using their own upbringing formula, the way they were treated by their parents. If his father kicked him every day - he would think it's perfectly alright to kick his son. If that is his dog - the dog must be kicked twice. 
Generally, humans are irritated by dog's bark. This irritation comes absolutely naturally, because we are the apes. Dogs' bark emerge from the depth of many thousand years, it was meant to scare us, that's why it is so irritating. But in fact, a voice is given to every creature for self expression, and, if you would have asked that guy "What my dog is saying now?" he wouldn't answer, because he is not an intelligent ape.
All dogs are of different vocality. Some of them are more vocal than others. Seems, your dog is vocal. And young. He wouldn't be so vocal later in his age. To shut him up would be wrong, threatening intonations would only encourage him for more barking. But to train him coming back to you each time you don't like something would be right. Let him bark at your feet, he will stop soon. Recall and ask to sit every time he attacks other dogs. This sort of behaviour is typical of young males whose owners like to stand around and just talk about dogs instead of playing the ball with them. Then, there's a rule for any dog owner: talk only to people who are nicely predisposed to you, and to those who are not - smile a big smile.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

marbury said:


> Meh... I use that term lightly. I threaten all sorts of ridiculous things to my dogs. If I had a quarter for every time I said "If you do that again I'll scoop your eyeballs out with a pencil and feed them to the cat" I could do laundry for a month. When I say "beat you into submission" I usually refer to a boop on the nose or a thwack on the bottom. And when I say "KILL 'EM, KILL EM!" when my dogs are zooming after each other around the yard I don't really want to have to pick up carcasses. But that's just me.


ROTFL!!! Me too!!! I threaten my dogs all the time with stuff. I have probably threatened them with everything from "pink juice", to ripping the balls off with a spoon. My dogs generally just look at me wagging their tail then continue their naughty behavior. 

That said, I have also trained my dogs that " don't you DARE rupture a cruciate" means slow the heck down and chill out!!!

I would never strike a dog in anger. But my dogs are very used to my hooting and hollering. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Rbeckett said:


> It's all about pack leadership and setting out who is in charge and who is subordinate. No need to shame or strike a dog ever. If you raise your hand at a dog so will you raise the same hand to you wife or children Totally unacceptable and a real show of cowardice. Be a man/Woman and step up or step out...or come pick on me, I'm more your size even though I am in a wheelchair.


I disagree. There's a difference between applying constructive correction and beating. I believe that control is the difference. If physical punishment is not controlled then I absolutely agree with you; a person who hits their dog is likely to cause harm to other animals as well (humans included). But just because I use a pop of the leash or a thump on the butt as part of proofing training does not mean that I'm going to go ape-poop on my partner or strangle a child that says 'daddy' once too often at the park.
Of course, if I followed through with my pencil-and-eyeball threat I'd put MYSELF in jail, lol! :wild:


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> ROTFL!!! Me too!!! I threaten my dogs all the time with stuff. I have probably threatened them with everything from "pink juice", to ripping the balls off with a spoon. My dogs generally just look at me wagging their tail then continue their naughty behavior. http://www.petguide.com/mobile


YES! I threaten Pink Juice all the time, hahaha! :thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VTGirlT said:


> I am very sickened and tired of hearing this from at least several people.
> Telling me that i need to make my dog submit (Physically do it),
> Or for instance, when i said i need to get her a doggy play date, where the dog is similar to her (because she barks at other dogs until they play, not really sure, its a high pitch bark and she IS asking them to play) The person i said that to said, so the doggy play date can "beat her into submission."
> 
> ...


Are you open to some advice? I mean, is this just a rant, and you are not really interested in comments, then I understand that too. People can be jerks without even trying. 

But I think that your statement suggests that not only are you unsatisfied with your dog's training or behavior, other people are noticing it too. That's hard. 

You have a dog that you feel is very dominant, and these other people are being way to dominant to you. My suggestion would be to gain some confidence. Take your dog to training classes, take a self-defense class, get a hobby that you are really, really good at. Find who in your life is putting you down and divorce yourself from their opinion of you. 

Ok, done with the amateur shrink stuff. Good luck with your pup. Lots of stuff on NILIF, google it. I never read through it all, and I don't use it, except without knowing that I do. Working with a good trainer in classes can help immensely if you are not already.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Well i appreciate all the replies. 
The two main people i can give examples of that told me this: One has a dog who recently had a acl surgery, so she isn't allowed to run.. when she was excited to see us she came running up to us. The girl im thinking of, called her back and when she came back she took the leather leash and whacked her very hard on the nose. Her and the other person take their dogs by the scruff and throw them down on the floor or even skin from a leg and grab that- to make them submit. I do not agree with the way these people correct "submit" their dogs. I know they aren't doing what i call snapping out of the moment, such as a tap on the nose or a poke on the shoulder muscle. 
And marbury, i am the same way. I tell her imma beat her butt and that that im going to put a free sign on her and put her on the side of the road or that im going to eat her for dinner and start with her leg muscle! 
Well this happens when the dogs are in the house, she will go up to them and bark, and one of them will play with her and she stops, the other one will bark and growl and she wont leave her alone, so that is when i step in. Indeed she does not know when to stop, but this is also a girl who use to tuck her tail in when i first got her when a dog would come up to her.  So in some ways she is getting a lot better with dog to dog interactions, and she is not ever aggressive with them. 
My dog isnt exactly the best first dog, as she has many behavioral problems and is dominant. I am learning things along the way and will be very imperfect through the whole journey. To those of you who suggested i "train her" to stop barking at other dogs to play, do you have a suggestion?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VTGirlT said:


> Well i appreciate all the replies.
> The two main people i can give examples of that told me this: One has a dog who recently had a acl surgery, so she isn't allowed to run.. when she was excited to see us she came running up to us. *The girl im thinking of, called her back and when she came back she took the leather leash and whacked her very hard on the nose*. Her and the other person take their dogs by the scruff and throw them down on the floor or even skin from a leg and grab that- to make them submit. I do not agree with the way these people correct "submit" their dogs. I know they aren't doing what i call snapping out of the moment, such as a tap on the nose or a poke on the shoulder muscle.
> And marbury, i am the same way. I tell her imma beat her butt and that that im going to put a free sign on her and put her on the side of the road or that im going to eat her for dinner and start with her leg muscle!
> Well this happens when the dogs are in the house, she will go up to them and bark, and one of them will play with her and she stops, the other one will bark and growl and she wont leave her alone, so that is when i step in. Indeed she does not know when to stop, but this is also a girl who use to tuck her tail in when i first got her when a dog would come up to her.  So in some ways she is getting a lot better with dog to dog interactions, and she is not ever aggressive with them.
> My dog isnt exactly the best first dog, as she has many behavioral problems and is dominant. I am learning things along the way and will be very imperfect through the whole journey. To those of you who suggested i "train her" to stop barking at other dogs to play, do you have a suggestion?


And you are worried about what people like this think of how you manage your dog? Exactly, why?


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Submit? And to say "Yes, sir!" in human language.
> They don't know what they are talking about. Never ever be rude to your dog. But, to these fools either, you cannot explain to people how to raise their children, they would do it by using their own upbringing formula, the way they were treated by their parents. If his father kicked him every day - he would think it's perfectly alright to kick his son. If that is his dog - the dog must be kicked twice.
> Generally, humans are irritated by dog's bark. This irritation comes absolutely naturally, because we are the apes. Dogs' bark emerge from the depth of many thousand years, it was meant to scare us, that's why it is so irritating. But in fact, a voice is given to every creature for self expression, and, if you would have asked that guy "What my dog is saying now?" he wouldn't answer, because he is not an intelligent ape.
> All dogs are of different vocality. Some of them are more vocal than others. Seems, your dog is vocal. And young. He wouldn't be so vocal later in his age. To shut him up would be wrong, threatening intonations would only encourage him for more barking. *But to train him coming back to you each time you don't like something would be right.* Let him bark at your feet, he will stop soon. Recall and ask to sit every time he attacks other dogs. This sort of behaviour is typical of young males whose owners like to stand around and just talk about dogs instead of playing the ball with them. Then, there's a rule for any dog owner: talk only to people who are nicely predisposed to you, and to those who are not - smile a big smile.


Makes sense, she is a VERY vocal dog. She moans and groans all the time. Her stranger/alert bark is very deep with short barks, very quick after the other. Where as her "pay attention" Or "Play with me" bark is very high pitched (awful sounding!) and is sparatic! When i ask her to come back, she usually does, and stops but than she goes right back and barks at them again. Perhaps i am giving her the opportunity to do it too often, doesn't help. If i keep doing that and distract her with a game or something so it happens less.



selzer said:


> Are you open to some advice? I mean, is this just a rant, and you are not really interested in comments, then I understand that too. People can be jerks without even trying.
> 
> But I think that your statement suggests that not only are you *unsatisfied with your dog's training or behavior*, other people are noticing it too. That's hard.
> 
> ...


Thanks selzer, i guess i was just ranting but got more than that, which is fine too. I DO have a low confidence and i have depression. So she is very hard on me a lot of the time. In general, i am very patient with her because i love her a lot and think she is just a great dog as a whole. 
I did do petsmart beginner class with her, but because of her fear aggression towards humans i didnt do intermediate. I did also get a private trainer, she was only a bit helpful, some things were VERY helpful and the other things were not and she had no other helpful suggestions so i am just no longer using her. I have looked up some classes, i would like to get a good muzzle for her first and have a trainer who understands that we will have to do some things a bit differently to keep her under threshold, so being in vermont i have a very limited resources in this! (and income) But your right, i should focus on doing something that will build my confidence, i was thinking about starting tracking- which would be fun for both of us.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> And you are worried about what people like this think of how you manage your dog? Exactly, why?


Valid point.. I am a pretty sensitive person and take things personally a lot of the time. I guess in general i value their insight on other things, so when our opinions of how to train dogs vary to a large degree, i know they are wrong in several things, i however am not sure if i am totally right in how i train my dog. So basically i'm still trying to figure out what i think is acceptable training and tools for dogs and what is not. Because you got trainers like kikopup, monks of newskeet, doggydan, cesar millan, jamie shaw, my trainer, etc. and everyone believes something different about dogs and their behavior and how to train them- and so i am basically using my built in morals, what i see in my dog, and information taken from different people and trainers and trying to make my own way of training my dog.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

there isnt one correct way to train a dog. each dog is different. the most annoying are the people who try to give you advice but cant even call their dog back to them to show you. anyone who cant get their dog to come loses all credibility and make me secretly laugh inside.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VTGirlT said:


> Valid point.. I am a pretty sensitive person and take things personally a lot of the time. I guess in general i value their insight on other things, so when our opinions of how to train dogs vary to a large degree, i know they are wrong in several things, i however am not sure if i am totally right in how i train my dog. So basically i'm still trying to figure out what i think is acceptable training and tools for dogs and what is not. Because you got trainers like kikopup, monks of newskeet, doggydan, cesar millan, jamie shaw, my trainer, etc. and everyone believes something different about dogs and their behavior and how to train them- and so i am basically using my built in morals, what i see in my dog, and information taken from different people and trainers and trying to make my own way of training my dog.


I think that most of us have to give things a hearing, and then decide whether or not this is something you want to try. 

No dog is the same, no handler is the same. Dogs are less complex than humans. But they are pretty complex nonetheless. What works for one dog/handler might work for another, or it may not. Ultimately, the choices you make you will have to live with, no one else. But no pressure. Trust your gut, I think you are on the right track. 

If there are issues with what you are doing, ok, that isn't working, let's try something else. But trust your gut when you think that something is not what you want to try. 

There are a kagillion ways to train/manage a dog, you do not have to do it any one way. Talk to lots of people, listen, then make your choice. 

As you grow in confidence, I will be very surprised if your dog does not relax somewhat, and look more to you in situations.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

marbury said:


> Meh... I use that term lightly. I threaten all sorts of ridiculous things to my dogs. If I had a quarter for every time I said "If you do that again I'll scoop your eyeballs out with a pencil and feed them to the cat" I could do laundry for a month. When I say "beat you into submission" I usually refer to a boop on the nose or a thwack on the bottom. And when I say "KILL 'EM, KILL EM!" when my dogs are zooming after each other around the yard I don't really want to have to pick up carcasses. But that's just me.


Lol I always tell them I'm going to rip their ears off or beat them, Eko usually gets very excited and comes up to me all wiggly and Xena just looks at me like "yeah, whatever".


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

If someone told me to do that id put her into a bark and hold against them while I tell them off.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know people read it as the OP should beat her dog into submission...but I read it as more that a bigger play pal would do it for her. A dog would correct a dog.

Truth is OP...you've just been getting lucky that your dog hasn't already run into a bigger, badder, dog that would've already corrected your girl for that behavior. The scary thing is, you keep saying she's not aggressive...she's not aggressive yet. She's 14 months old. Not matured yet and probably hasn't had a dog hit her soft spot. You'd be surprised what might happen when a dog finally stands up to her.

If my dog ever gets aggressive, or doesn't want to listen/stop doing whatever he's doing to another dog, I will get in there, grab by the collar and force him in a down. I have a very dominant male who can quickly turn on his aggressive side if something gets him going. I've learned his body language and I know when its time to get him away from situations, but once in a while I might miss it and have to do that. Does it make me a poor owner? No...it makes me an owner that knows that a little treat will snap my 85 lbs male out of that state of mind.


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## POWERSCOL (Jan 3, 2013)

Emma sounds very much like your dog. While I do not beat her into submision, I have learned the hard way to be very firm and *Consistant* in correction. In being fim it is voice tone and fisical correction on her collar, or even scruffing her, like barking at the vet (now keep a soft muzzle handy) There are times to stop her barking I have gotten her attntion by grabbibg and gently holding her nose while firmly correcting her with a NO or STOP command.

With Emma, being Consistanrt is the key and correcting every situation. She is getting a lot better, and I can now from a distance correct her - like when she runs to the end of the yard to bark at folks on the street. I can yell Stop (to stop the run0, and No to stop the bark, then Come for her to return to me. Still not perfect, but a lot better.

She is now learning that one bark is OK, Maybe two, but more is not allowed.

Hope this helps.

PS: I do threaten time outs sometimes. She knows what time out means (time to herlelf in the bathroom alone away from me) However she did pay me back last week by shreeding and unrolling a full role of TP :wub:
Now I remove the role out of reach.


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