# Is sable really the dominant?



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Discussing this with a friend. 
Sable female whose parents were ... Dad sable, Mom black and red. Only one other sable in 7 generation. All of the rest were solid black and black/tan saddleback
Black and red/tan male, nothing BUT black and red/tan dogs in 12 generations. 

Is is correct that these two would most likely produce more sables than black and red/tan? Hearing that the best you could expect is 50/50, but that it should be expected to have 70-100% sable. Is this correct? I tried reading the in depth, and got lost, so I am asking in laymans terms!


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

And... even more odd, one of her males is all black, with only one all black about 5 generations back, rest are black and tan... I thought it was a bit different than that, but I guess I midunderstand it all! Any expertise is going to fuel for our next conversation  And... no jokes about the fact that this is the type of thing we talk about over our morning coffee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How can there only be one other sable in 7 generations? Don't you need a sable to get a sable?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> How can there only be one other sable in 7 generations? Don't you need a sable to get a sable?


Of course. The situation the OP describes can not be accurate.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

post a pedigree.

That sable sire , each and every generation , needs to have one sable parent -- directly . That is what dominant gene means. 

More than likely the sire is a faded colour , lot of bitch striping .

If you had pictures that would help. But in order to be a sable one parent needs to be , generated from a pairing with a sable , generated from a grand parent with at least one sable --- sable does not go into hiding . That would make it a recessive gene, which it is not.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

then what needs to happen is that Daddy sable needs to be DNA'd and that should prove that Daddy's pedigree is wrong . He can not come from two parents that are black and red . What ever kennel he came from must have a sable on property that snuck in for a tryst with the female and planted his sable seed !!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Yep, I was also thinking about an incorrect (or fake) pedigree.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Another possibility is that a pattern sable was incorrectly registered as a black and brown (tan or red).....I know a dog that from photos you would swear is black and tan but he is a sable....when sellers hand off an AKC app to a buyer, it is easy enough for someone (esp a novice or pet owner) to have made an error on a pattern dog ....

Lee


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## Piper'sgrl (Apr 20, 2012)

You need atleast one parent whos a sable to produce a pattern sable.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

_started a new thread regarding sable puppy picture
Mod Mary
_


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

wolfstraum said:


> Another possibility is that a pattern sable was incorrectly registered as a black and brown (tan or red).....I know a dog that from photos you would swear is black and tan but he is a sable....when sellers hand off an AKC app to a buyer, it is easy enough for someone (esp a novice or pet owner) to have made an error on a pattern dog ....
> 
> Lee


Pictures on pedigree database can be misleading. I have a patterned sable and, in the right light, he looks like a black and tan. There is zero doubt he is sable and that is certainly what they can be seeing.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

saw this thread and read it, pulled Sadies pedigree down and only ONE dog has sable ... her father...... all the rest of the dogs are either black/red or black/tan or black/cream or just black.... her fathers parents and grandparents have no sable in it . .... wonder who else contributed to her sable color lol......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Post the pedigree. Sable does not come from saddleback or black. Period. There are some discussions on pedigree where there can be speculation - complex things like hip dysplasia but coat color is extremely well established for many many years. Pictures can be misleading.


THIS dog is a sable.

Adult picture









Puppy picture


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

sadies is akc (which doesnt mean a thing to me since she is a rescue dog)

parents: orrick of watts acres, SBL (sire), Damion of watts acres,BLK (dam)

orrick parents: sarge of watts acres blk & tan sire
zoe von fuerstenberg , blk & red dam

damion parents: same as orricks parents

orrick grandparents father side: elvis of mason acres, blk & cr
dixie of mason acres, blk & tan
orrick grandparents mother side: cujo blu blk & tan
sweet sabrina B, blk & red

damion grandparents side father side : elvis of mason acres, blk & cr
dixie of mason acres, blk & tan

grandparents mothers side: cujo blu, blk & tn
sweet sabrina B, Blk & Rd

i did find this on the ukc site its her grandparents and great grandparents:

Sarge Of Watts Acres

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=666861&p=5-generation-pedigree

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=666856

grandparents grandkid:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=666735


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are too few pictures but you can clearly see sables in the woodpile way back!

It is not like the color police come and inspect the dog to ensure the "right thing" gets put on the pedigree. I had to correct the vet when she went to put Beau's color on his vet chart as she was going to put black and tan. My female Cyra was listed by the breeder as a bicolor but she was a blanket black. I never corrected it because I never bothered to register her.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> There are too few pictures but you can clearly see sables in the woodpile way back!
> 
> It is not like the color police come and inspect the dog to ensure the "right thing" gets put on the pedigree. I had to correct the vet when she went to put Beau's color on his vet chart as she was going to put black and tan. My female Cyra was listed by the breeder as a bicolor but she was a blanket black. I never corrected it because I never bothered to register her.


That is too true. The vet school put Anik down as "black" when he is most definitely a sable.
And people call Ari a black and tan because his overlay is so dark they don't always realize he is a sable.
And Cora is listed as blk/red, she is a bi-color.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i couldnt find many pics in her pedigree either.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> Another possibility is that a pattern sable was incorrectly registered as a black and brown (tan or red).....I know a dog that from photos you would swear is black and tan but he is a sable....when sellers hand off an AKC app to a buyer, it is easy enough for someone (esp a novice or pet owner) to have made an error on a pattern dog ....
> 
> Lee


Yeah or if this is a WGSL pedigree, there are some popular sables, more common than people think, but usually are very patterned red sable so might be mistaken for black and red.

My own patterned sable (out of two sable parents) has been incorrectly identified as a black and tan by people on this forum.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Sorry I missed so much today... 

Her AKC pedigree does not show another Sable besides the female in questions father. His parents were black/tan. I do , however, think that again, your stance on saying that so many people out there misinterpret the very prodominant saddle markings as black and tan. 

So, that being said... 

The question still remains.. Does a sable parent, since THIS particular female is an obvious sable as far as I could tell, produce more sables in a litter, even if the male is ALL black and reds from WG, and she carried a large amount of black/tan and blacks? I was more interested in that part. I actually did bring up with my friend that I personally even very recently went to inquire about a last female in a litter while I was traveling, and the breeder showed me a sable puppy that someone like myself would have thought was a black/tan!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Depends on what recessives are carried by both parents.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

VaBeachFamily said:


> The question still remains.. Does a sable parent, since THIS particular female is an obvious sable as far as I could tell, produce more sables in a litter, even if the male is ALL black and reds from WG, and she carried a large amount of black/tan and blacks? I was more interested in that part. I actually did bring up with my friend that I personally even very recently went to inquire about a last female in a litter while I was traveling, and the breeder showed me a sable puppy that someone like myself would have thought was a black/tan!


Let's assume the sable parent is out of a sable parent and a black/tan(red) parent.

Sable dog is then sable with a saddle-pattern recessive, represented as sable/saddle. That dog is then bred to another dog who is a saddle-back dog--saddle/saddle.

So, your puppy options are:

sable/saddle
sable/saddle
saddle/saddle
saddle/saddle 

That is, you'll get, statistically, 50% sables (pattern sables) and 50% normal saddle-pattern black-tan or black-red dogs.

However, this means you could still get a 100% sable or 100% saddle litter--just like getting a litter that is 100% boys -- it's unusual, but it does happen--so the distribution will vary within a single litter.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Well, that was much more simple than some of the stuff I tried reading.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Interesting! Thanks Christine! The genetics of what you can get are so nuts. I know this same woman who has a SOLID black, gorgeous, came out of two black and tans, and the last black was a bit back on both sides, and he was the only black pup. 

I guess I just haven't read enough. I love all GSDs, even those crazy crack baby blues and livers  but I am partial to my Black and reds, and my bi-colors. I, honestly though, have a COAT preference over the color! Any color, with a plush coat, melts me!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

VaBeachFamily said:


> Interesting! Thanks Christine! The genetics of what you can get are so nuts. I know this same woman who has a SOLID black, gorgeous, came out of two black and tans, and the last black was a bit back on both sides, and he was the only black pup.


That can definitely happen--black (solid) in GSDs is recessive to all the other patterns, so a dog can carry it for generations and have it not show up until bred to another dog carrying the black recessive.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Does the white gene work in the same way? Producing whites only if the other parent has the gene somewhere?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

White is not a different color. A white dog is still sable, black and tan, etc. The white just masks the dog's color pattern, but I'm not really sure how it works.

Pan's parents are both sable but I only three of seven puppies in his litter were sable.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

While white is not a "color" it does need to be inherited from sire and dam, as does blue or liver.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

That's crazy.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

so since there are a few sables in my sadies pedigree background thats probably how she is a sable correct? not that i care, i didnt buy her from the breeder , and her temperment with people is fantastic so thats really all i care about. i was just surprised to learn that you need the sable in the history to produce sables since her father is a sable and no other relative up close is a sable, but some can be seen futher back in the grandparents and great grandparents tree


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think we are trying to say that one of her fathers parents HAD to be sable regardless of how it was logged on the pedigree. The use of the term sable is unknown to some and they may get called "black and tan" etc. Did you see the grandparents first hand and confirm they were sable or do you have clear pictures of them?

That is why I pictured my dog on the boat. Does that dog look sable to you?


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Nancy.. I get it. I haven't seen them, I just read the colors listed on the AKC pedigree. 

As far as your pup, as a puppy, I would have said Sable on my own, but as an adult, I would have said black/tan or red


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i had such a hard time finding any pictures on the ukc site, closest i could get was a distant relative and Aces Little bailey, another distant relative that was shown inthe pic as sable. i got her from a woman on craigslist and the 3 generation pedigree was all she had, so i researched them and found some more but most of them had no pictures. your dog is gorgeous, to me in the pic he looks red/black only cause its hard to see in the pictures . his puppy pic definitely is a sable color. i really enjoy genetics as you can find out so much more then what you think


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

a side shot:










her coloring has changed since i got her 2 years ago too


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