# Judging drive, focus, temperament & suitability



## bornfreenowexpensive (Mar 27, 2011)

Say you're me; a pet owner looking for your first working dog with the intention of participating in training and some sort of dog sport (tracking-type work, obedience, but not protection work). You already have pretty well developed marker training ability and have identified a professional dog trainer in your area to work with. You want a dog that is intelligent and focused to make training easy and fun, but you also want a dog that is going to be calm in the house and make a nice pet as well. The major thing I want to avoid is ending up with a dog that has a stubborn, "alpha" type temperament. That personality is very challenging for me to work with. I need a biddable and responsive dog.

So, with that said: How do you choose the right dog out of a litter of puppies? What should I look for in how they interact with me, the environment and each other?

I'm asking here because breeders have told me that I should just pick the sex and color that I want, have told me that their litters are all "medium drive" and "uniform in temperament", and I should just pick the one that seems to like me best. That's fine with me, but I thought I'd check with you all to see if you have suggestions. I doubt that any litter is completely uniform in temperament, but how do I (as a buyer) test the puppies to see which one is best for me?

Also, if a breeder has 12+ week old puppies from previous litters, should I stay away from those puppies since they were not picked by other buyers? Should I reserve a future puppy so that I can have my choice of more? This is all very new to me, so I appreciate your patience!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

bornfreenowexpensive said:


> Say you're me; a pet owner looking for your first working dog with the intention of participating in training and some sort of dog sport (tracking-type work, obedience, but not protection work). You already have pretty well developed marker training ability and have identified a professional dog trainer in your area to work with. You want a dog that is intelligent and focused to make training easy and fun, but you also want a dog that is going to be calm in the house and make a nice pet as well. The major thing I want to avoid is ending up with a dog that has a stubborn, "alpha" type temperament. That personality is very challenging for me to work with. I need a biddable and responsive dog.
> 
> So, with that said: How do you choose the right dog out of a litter of puppies? What should I look for in how they interact with me, the environment and each other?
> 
> ...


This is why it is important to buy from a REPUTABLE breeder. A good breeder will screen you, know what you want, what you need, what you can handle and match you with the dog that best suits you. A good breeder has been evaluating pups to know what ones are best suited for what.
From what you have said the breeder(s) you are talking to do not have their pups best interest or yours at heart.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I agree with Brandi: you need to find more knowledgeable breeders. If you are interested in a sport dog, try the workingline breeders that breed, train, and compete in SchH.

When I was beginning to shop around for my current dog, I was directed to a reputable breeder like this even though I had no plans to do SchH, just obedience and agility. I told them what I wanted to do with my dog and what I was looking for in a dog and that my dog had to be male, color wasn't even a consideration. They picked out my pup and handed him to me when I drove up. I have been in love with my dog ever since and couldn't be happier with their choice. I did discover SchH after I got my dog and do that now too.

Good breeders like this do all the matching puppies to people as they are the best judge of what their puppies are like.


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## bornfreenowexpensive (Mar 27, 2011)

Elaine said:


> I agree with Brandi: you need to find more knowledgeable breeders. If you are interested in a sport dog, try the workingline breeders that breed, train, and compete in SchH.


These aren't Craigslist people, these are people who are charging $1000+ for puppies, their dogs compete in SchH and other sports. Some were recommended by this forum. Maybe it's the economy or maybe I just sound like a super home for any dog.  

Someone sent me a wonderful link to a breeder who does extensive temperament evaluations on their puppies which is fantastic. If I don't get a good feeling from anyone this weekend I guess I will contact her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Take your time, why make the decision in a weekend? 
I would only go with a breeder that chooses a pup for me based on what I am looking for. The breeder knows the pup much better than what you would observing for an hour.
12 week old pups that are "leftovers" are probably fine, if you know what you are looking for....but I wouldn't rush into anything! 
Look at what the breeder has produced in the past, contact the other owners of those pups(that have grown up) and get their experience with the dog they are living with. Look up the registered names and see what titles they've earned if they've gone to working homes.
If they won't share the owners names with you, then I would wonder why. 
Most puppy owners are happy to support their breeder and having their name given as reference (after screening) should be fine.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Would you mind PM'ing me the link? I'm not very familiar with New England breeders, but I'm curious how an experience breeder who competes in performance events ends up letting a newbie pick their own pup. 

would you be open to having a pup shipped?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

People on here say over and over that you should let the breeder pick the pup-I ended up taking the pup that liked me best-she still does. So contrary to what is written on a web board every thing does not have to be done the same way


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If I wanted to do tracking, I would look for people who really understand that ability in their dogs. I have had good luck with folks who place animals in SAR, detection etc and have dogs from their kennel who people have done well in tracking with. IF I want biddability, I also would go with a breeder who really knows what this is and selects for it. I guess you can get a decent dog and do a lot of things with it. Over the years, I have learned to look for real talent in the areas I wish to compete in or enjoy. 

I have had several GSDs now and I can tell you the breed is quite varied! The breeders are quite varied also. This is unfortunate because it makes it something of a challenge to find the right place.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

holland said:


> People on here say over and over that you should let the breeder pick the pup-I ended up taking the pup that liked me best-she still does. So contrary to what is written on a web board every thing does not have to be done the same way


Nobody is saying that if you pick your own dog, your dog won't like you the best. What we are all saying is that if you want the best fit for you, your life style, and what you want in a dog, the breeder is going to do a much better job.

As a for instance, a friend of mine was wanting to get another Dobe and wanted to do sports, especially SchH, and AKC conformation with it. She took a puppy from showlines - against my advice - that had a showline SchH 3 sire. The breeder, while being a very nice guy, had no clue about what to look for in a sport puppy so let her do all the evaluating and picked her own pup. She ended up with a beautiful cryptorchid male that she can't show in breed and the dog doesn't have the drive for SchH. This is why you go to an experienced breeder that knows their dogs and does the picking for you.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I understand what is being said but just because you and every one else writes it does not necessarily make it true


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I chose Djibouti, however I looked to his breeder for guidance & followed her advice. She'd advised against a gorgeous lh from another litter b/c he was a bit shy & a poor match for me, my pack & the neighborhood environment. In Djibouti's litter I was leaning towards him, but there was another I liked, which she advised was somewhat noise reactive & not a great match for a rowdy urban environment. I appreciated her input, especially since it was spot on concerning my circumstances, & what I'd told her I wanted/needed from my GSD.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Samba, that's excellent advice. People often don't realize how deeply a dog's abilities, interests, & ease of training are genetic. Acquiring a dog with an innate interest in what you want to pursue heavily stacks the deck that you & the dog will both succeed & enjoy the chosen activities.

I'd applaud some of the variety in the breed except that people are so impassioned for their niches it's resulted in multiple largely restricted gene pools.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The breeder will know much better than a person observing a litter for an hour which pup would best suit the new owner....
What do you do with your dog, holland? If you aren't doing sportwork or show, then it isn't such a big deal to get a companion out of a litter, but it may be a wash at show or work. 
And yes dogs usually do like best who they share life with. They have no choice.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Jane I have no need to explain to you what I do with my dog


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

holland said:


> I understand what is being said but just because you and every one else writes it does not necessarily make it true


I'm not sure you DO understand what is being said here! Maybe you just like to argue? 

Anyone can get lucky picking out a puppy....and in a really good litter, you can probably just reach in and take any puppy and they'll will work out fine. But the breeder who has (HOPEFULLY!) lived with them and observed them as they've developed should have a much better idea of the various temperaments and personalities within the litter. You aren't going to get a true picture in a one-hour visit.

I wasn't looking for a puppy last year, but my friend in California called and said "I have your next competition dog here!!" At first I said No, we're not ready....then it became maybe, then OH OK send her. I absolutely adore this youngster, she's awesome. This breeder knows me, knows what I do with my dogs, and knows what I'm looking for.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

"It just sounds like she made some choices-next time she'll know what to look for"

You still don't get it. She didn't know the pups in the litter well enough to know what they are truly like to be able to pick what was best for her. She now has a dog that she will have for a very long time that she can't do what she had planned to do with him and can't get another dog for years to come. If all she wanted was a pet, that would be fine, but she wanted a sport and breed dog, yet got neither.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thank you so much for explaining that to me-if you type slower next time maybe I will get it quicker. All the best to your poor friend...if only she had just listened to you


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Smile, holland, it makes life so much better


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

holland said:


> I understand what is being said but just because you and every one else writes it does not necessarily make it true


And your one good experience invalidates everyone elses' multiple experiences.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

bronfree, I also recommend finding a breeder that works and titles dogs in venues that you are interested in, and letting the breeder pick a dog for you based on your description of what you are looking for. The breeder, after having worked dogs over time, raised and placed multiple litters, and observed and evaluated the litter from which you are getting a pup, they should have the most experience and insight into making a good match for you. 

Picking a pet and picking a working/competition prospect are two very different things. When I picked my previous pet dog, I had two requirements: friendly with people and good with cats. That, she is, so I picked well in that respect. But at the time I had but very little understanding of the many different facets and degrees of a dog's temperament and was quite overwhelmed with her behaviour in other areas. It was getting involved in advanced training that really made me understand that "good temperament" is more than being friendly with people and not eating the cats. 

When I decided to get a Schutzhund dog, I was looking for something very specific, very much like what you are looking for, and a well balanced GSD should be able to meet those requirements quite easily. But even though I understood (to some extent) the interplay of many different drives, I did not have any experience in evaluating puppies for these drives - and did go with a breeder that had the experience and the track record in doing good owner/dog matches in that respect.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> And your one good experience invalidates everyone elses' multiple experiences.


Yes of course:smirk:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

another breeder you might check out is Liberatore in Maine,,she has REALLY nice dogs, that are pretty versatile.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> Would you mind PM'ing me the link? I'm not very familiar with New England breeders, but I'm curious how an experience breeder who competes in performance events ends up letting a newbie pick their own pup.


Oh, sorry! I see that the link sent to yo and the people who let you choose your pup are not the same. Never mind!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> If you aren't doing sportwork or show, then it isn't such a big deal to get a companion out of a litter, but it may be a wash at show or work.


Something I frequently see with 'pet people' (& I am one) is that they think of dogs in vague terms of 'nice' or 'mean' which often relates to the dog does/doesn't bite, growl, bark excessively & does/doesn't eat cats, fight/bully other dogs. A loving, affectionate, loyal dog can still be fear aggressive, neurotic, shy, inappropriately reactive or lack judgment. Frankly a characteristic of true byb is how little they understand canine temperament, behavior & genetics, hence they're completely inept at matching people & pups. Naive pet people all too often wind up with a dog ill suited to their circumstances b/c their expectations didn't extend past the desire for a 'nice dog'.

While I don't always agree with others' criteria of what makes a 'good' breeder I strongly believe people should get their pups from good breeders whether the dogs are for sport, show, work or companionship.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> While I don't always agree with others' criteria of what makes a 'good' breeder I strongly believe people should get their pups from good breeders whether the dogs are for sport, show, work or companionship.


I agree, otherwise you are supporting a breeder that isn't doing it for the breed but other motive$.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I've always picked my own puppies using the standard working puppy tests as a starting point, then factoring in the breeder's opinion, and from there also adding in my trainer's opinion who I brought with me on one of the evaluations/observations I perform. And yes the puppy I liked best would change from week to week as I observed. 

If you are a complete novice, then yes, the breeder is your best resource and their opinion should be trusted. And chances are that as a novice to working dogs anything you get from a reputable breeder will be perfectly suitable. BUT (and this is why I personally like to pick my own puppies) so much of dog training is individual and requires a "connection" between you and your puppy. And no...not just the one that sits in your lap and makes eyes at you. You have to be emotionally invested in your pup to put in the time and the hard work necessary. Some people pick a pup like they pick golf clubs. And personally (although I know this works for some people) I cannot order a puppy from a breeder like some kind of catalog purchase. Just me. Additionally quality breeders want ultimate control over their litters. Many breeders are not going to place the high level competition prospect with someone they just met on a puppy interview. Chances are that dog will go to someone they know and trust to turn that puppy into a strong representative of their breeding program. It stinks to watch a litter grow, become very attached to a particular pup and then find out that pup is destined for someone else. Which is also why I think quality breeders prefer to select homes for their puppies- stinks also to see a pick puppy go to a home that ends up doing nothing. This is why I prefer a strong personal relationship with my breeders before I get a puppy- they know me and I am able to select what I want. 

Picking a sport prospect puppy is not really all that difficult IF you understand the desirable characteristics of the future behaviors you will be wanting. For me, for a SchH prospect, I bring a rag and maybe a little tennis ball and maybe a hot dog. Which pup chases and who picks things up, who has a nice grip who wants to chew, who sticks with the playing and who gets bored and wanders off, who is bold and who takes a second to warm up, who struggles and who settles when you hold them. A puppy that plays and interacts with you, shows a nice grip and a confident personality, and who is easily engaged in playing is pretty much all you need to have something to work with.

After that...Considerably more of how your dog turns out depends on YOU. Some people need "the right dog" to be successful because their training methods/or ability are not very adaptive. Others who have more of a knack for training are able to be successful with a variety of personalities. 

One other thing I have found is that generally novices do not know what they want until they are several dogs in. Your characteristics for a dog for training become more refined as you work through problems with your starter dogs. They've seen some pretty stellar adult dogs and think "THAT's what I want!". Unfortunately they never knew those stellar adult dogs as puppies. I've met some people who want a "high drive dog" and they don't...not really. But equally as often I've seen people concerned about having a dog that was too high drive, stressing to the breeder that they want a dog with an "off switch" and then being disappointed when their dog doesn't offer as much drive as other pups in the club. So be honest with yourself about what you want and then look to see if what you want matches the pups and then be prepared to adjust as necessary.


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> I've always picked my own puppies using the standard working puppy tests as a starting point, then factoring in the breeder's opinion, and from there also adding in my trainer's opinion who I brought with me on one of the evaluations/observations I perform. And yes the puppy I liked best would change from week to week as I observed.
> 
> If you are a complete novice, then yes, the breeder is your best resource and their opinion should be trusted. And chances are that as a novice to working dogs anything you get from a reputable breeder will be perfectly suitable. BUT (and this is why I personally like to pick my own puppies) so much of dog training is individual and requires a "connection" between you and your puppy. And no...not just the one that sits in your lap and makes eyes at you. You have to be emotionally invested in your pup to put in the time and the hard work necessary. Some people pick a pup like they pick golf clubs. And personally (although I know this works for some people) I cannot order a puppy from a breeder like some kind of catalog purchase. Just me. Additionally quality breeders want ultimate control over their litters. Many breeders are not going to place the high level competition prospect with someone they just met on a puppy interview. Chances are that dog will go to someone they know and trust to turn that puppy into a strong representative of their breeding program. It stinks to watch a litter grow, become very attached to a particular pup and then find out that pup is destined for someone else. Which is also why I think quality breeders prefer to select homes for their puppies- stinks also to see a pick puppy go to a home that ends up doing nothing. This is why I prefer a strong personal relationship with my breeders before I get a puppy- they know me and I am able to select what I want.
> 
> ...


Very nicely put. So many variables especially when you are just getting to know the breed, engaging in the sporting/working world and having lived and witnessed what it takes to handle the dog that has the abilities. This especially true when you are working one dog at a time. Time becomes the equalizer when skills, knowledge and choice of dog, come together.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

Elaine said:


> Nobody is saying that if you pick your own dog, your dog won't like you the best. What we are all saying is that if you want the best fit for you, your life style, and what you want in a dog, the breeder is going to do a much better job.
> 
> As a for instance, a friend of mine was wanting to get another Dobe and wanted to do sports, especially SchH, and AKC conformation with it. She took a puppy from showlines - against my advice - that had a showline SchH 3 sire. The breeder, while being a very nice guy, had no clue about what to look for in a sport puppy so let her do all the evaluating and picked her own pup. She ended up with a beautiful cryptorchid male that she can't show in breed and the dog doesn't have the drive for SchH. This is why you go to an experienced breeder that knows their dogs and does the picking for you.


This may be more a buyer problem than a breeder problem. Based on your example, the buyer may have been looking for two types of dogs in one. It probably doesn't make sense to hope that most individual dogs will excel in both shcH and AKC conformation. Even though it can and does happen.

Like most people who are selling a product, and yes dogs sold by reputable breeders are a product, breeders will look to match what they have with what the buyer wants. it's not sinister or ill-intentioned, but most people who work around dogs enough, know that a well balanced dog is "capable" of doing a lot of things the buyer wants with the right training, etc. 

Personally, I would research a breeder, determine what they have produced within the breedlines, and decide if in general the breeder/kennel breeds what I'm interested in. Then I will "choose" my own dog. Frankly, I can't imagine giving someone else the responsibility of choosing my companion, family pet or partner in SAR, SchH or Conformation for the next 10-12 years. I think that bond begins when "I" make the selection. 

So I say do your homework, and make your decision. You will be the one who has to live with it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If I were a breeder I wouldn't let my pups be chosen by a buyer unless I had a good, trusting relationship with them!
I wouldn't want to set my pups up for failure. 
The breeder is the one that knows the pup, and of course like JKlatsky posted, a buyer can determine which one would make a good prospect, but the breeder should ultimately be the one to make the decision on which pup goes where or not. Especially a competition prospect, your kennel name is very important and you want your pups to succeed.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I am new to breeding. This is my second litter. I spend a lot of time with my puppies, getting to know them, interacting with them, there when they have new experiences. I know how each one has reacted in each situation. And I am learning to recognize what their reactions mean. I have two very different females left in this litter. Their personalities are different, they react different, they carry themselves different. A great trainer could do anything with either of them. But a novice owner wanting a companion would do better with the more laid back one. This is where knowing what your plans are for a pup come in to play. If I had two females, exactly alike, then it wouldnt much matter. And you could pick your favorite of the two. I wouldnt be doing my 'job' as a reputable breeder if I allowed someone to pick a puppy that I knew wasnt going to fit their needs.

You can get litters that have all very close personalities and the like. But, you can also get litters that have very diverse personalities.

So many people tell me they want a puppy just like my dog. I tell them it will take 3 yrs to get that puppy to be just like my dog. She is well behaved and listens because we train, train, train and train some more. They dont come out of the womb like that.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> If I were a breeder I wouldn't let my pups be chosen by a buyer unless I had a good, trusting relationship with them!
> I wouldn't want to set my pups up for failure.
> The breeder is the one that knows the pup, and of course like JKlatsky posted, a buyer can determine which one would make a good prospect, but the breeder should ultimately be the one to make the decision on which pup goes where or not. Especially a competition prospect, your kennel name is very important and you want your pups to succeed.


 I get very frustrated reading posts like this. Giving or anointing breeders with God-like omnipotence reflects a truly arrogant mindset among those who position their work, credentials, characters above all others. I would not consult, refer or spend too much time researching a breeder, who presumes to determine whether me of my family is worthy of their product. And I suppose that I will have to pay a premium for the privilege of being so honored. 
The more I read remarks like this the more I'm convinced that "bettering the breed" is more about the breeders than the GSD.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Iletthedogout said:


> I get very frustrated reading posts like this. Giving or anointing breeders with God-like omnipotence reflects a truly arrogant mindset among those who position their work, credentials, characters above all others. I would not consult, refer or spend too much time researching a breeder, who presumes to determine whether me of my family is worthy of their product. And I suppose that I will have to pay a premium for the privilege of being so honored.
> The more I read remarks like this the more I'm convinced that "bettering the breed" is more about the breeders than the GSD.


I just think the breeders actually care about the puppies they create. Has everything to do with control. They are now responsible for that puppy for the rest of its life. If they dont place that puppy with responsible owners, they are being irresponsible.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Iletthedogout said:


> I would not consult, refer or spend too much time researching a breeder, who presumes to determine whether me of my family is worthy of their product. .


Unfortunately a whole lot of people can't appropriately care for a goldfish, much less a dog. I respect breeders who don't let their pups go to anyone who can come up with the cash.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If german shepherd breeders find their names so important then they should probably keep their dogs-there are plenty of rescue and shelter dogs out there. And then there would be no need to even be involved in conversations like these


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> I just think the breeders actually care about the puppies they create. Has everything to do with control. They are now responsible for that puppy for the rest of its life. If they dont place that puppy with responsible owners, they are being irresponsible.


This is just patently not true. The buyer is responsible for the puppy. You're right that it has everything to do with "control'. Unfortunately, the vast majority of breeders do not take responsibility for puppies for the rest of their lives, as reflected in the number of posts about breeders that become incommunicado when the puppies develop health problems, etc. 
I don't suggest to disparage breeders, but to make them the ultimate arbiters of the very selection of a puppy by a consumer is ill-founded when you look at all the myriad dynamics, beyond the breeders control, that factor into a healthy owner-pet relationship.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Unfortunately a whole lot of people can't appropriately care for a goldfish, much less a dog. I respect breeders who don't let their pups go to anyone who can come up with the cash.


If a breeder thinks that a home is inappropriate for their dogs that is one thing. Then don't sell the dog. But to say that the consumer should rest this important decision of which dog they add to their family to the breeder is insulting. 
At the least it should be a partnership. At the end, if the breeder is unwilling to sell me the dog I choose consistent or not with their advice, then I walk. My home, my family, my dog, ... my choice.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Iletthedogout said:


> If a breeder thinks that a home is inappropriate for their dogs that is one thing. Then don't sell the dog.


But not all their dogs are exactly alike. Maybe a home isn't appropriate for some of the pups in the litter, but perfect for others. Why wouldn't you want the breeder, who knows their lines and has spent 8 weeks with the puppies and knows way more about their individual personalities than you could, decide which puppies would fit best with your lifestyle and goals? Shouldn't they take the responsibility for making the best matches possible?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Iletthedogout sounds like you have experienced some rejection. 

If you came to me , guess what, I would get to know you and then try to match the right dog to you. If for some reason you feel strongly that the choice is not correct you have every opportunity to explain to me why you feel this. Then I will demonstrate why my selection was made, consider the one you feel is right . If there is some validity to your findings , fine, if not I will show you why not , or give you the opportunity to come another time , and another time to see if what I have seen or you saw was a trend, consistent . 

Dogs are not products. I hate the commodification of a living , thinking, feeling , being . 

As a breeder , I have brought the animals into the world . I have a responsiblity to them , they have a trust in me . That is our bond . No animal is let go into a situation which violates that trust. 

Iletthedogout, youletthecatout of the bag. 

When I hand over a dog I am also inviting that person into my life for the next 12 - 14 years. If you are going to be difficult and unreasonable from the beginning , I am smart enough to say its not worth it. Please visit someone else. Control freak that I am -- (inside joke) -- . I've sent a few hiking in my day . 
I've also been privileged to meet some wonderful people who I count among my friends . Can't be all that wrong when most people are repeat "customers". 

Whether you like it or not you have to establish some rapport with the breeder. Does not mean it is intrusive or interfering. Don't you want to have someone who has knowledge and interest who will answer your questions, stear you in the right direction, share your successes , help you through difficulties? What would you expect if something did go wrong since nothing is 100% controllable. Would you give that breeder an opportunity to make good ?

You come , you see the dog for an hour or two. Well I have seen them a hundred hours . I have seen the parents develop from pup to maturity. I may have seen a previous litter from either the sire or the dam . I have seen generations back .

You would think that this information would be helpful in the selection process . A benefit that I have that I would use to your benefit, whether you are able to visit the litter or whether you live 700 miles away and rely on my judgment. I take this as a serious responsibilty . To the pup. To the person .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You don't think you get an interview process with a humane society, shelter, rescue? Think again. They are very selective and rightfully so.
Many of these health issues which have been addressed on this forum were from byb's, puppy factories (which come in different guises) . Pick a dog any dog, give me the cash now xuxger off , rhymes with mugger . oh and by the way , loose my number. 

They couldn't help themselves out of wet paper bag. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But not all their dogs are exactly alike. Maybe a home isn't appropriate for some of the pups in the litter, but perfect for others. Why wouldn't you want the breeder, who knows their lines and has spent 8 weeks with the puppies and knows way more about their individual personalities than you could, decide which puppies would fit best with your lifestyle and goals? Shouldn't they take the responsibility for making the best matches possible?


If a breeders says to me that her breedlines produce working dogs that require extensive training and a job to do and I say that I'm more interested in a family companion dog. Then it would be appropriate for the breeder to suggest that I look somewhere else. 

However, if a breeder has a litter of dogs that fit my general description of what I'm interested in, then I think I would like the ability to select from that litter everything else being equal. 

I'm not suggesting that the breeders input isn't valuable. I just think there needs to be a balance that includes what the buyer wants.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

of course. 
but a working dog can be a fine companion , especially when great effort is put into making sure the dogs have a strong nerve base. 
In your above example I would select the pups most suitable for that role and you can make the selection.
I had a professional , member of law enforcement, come for extensive testing , 2 to 3 hours , twice , before he could make up his mind. I suggested a super female. He was used to working with males. He saw the merit in my suggestion. I allowed him to retest, and then honoured his decision to go with the male afterall. 
No one , at least I won't, stick you with an animal for which you can't have feeling for . From my perspective people will get carried away with being attracted to something superficial and over look the important stuff. Pet people in particular. They might "love" one because it is fuzzier , which will change, or one has nice markings , or one is lighter (may change) and is less intimidating looking (although he may be the wild child or not appropriate) . 

You try your best to make it a happy and positive thing.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I would want the breeder to pick the pup for me, for the very reasons already listed. I would also want the breeder to explain why s/he feels a particular pup is the best fit for me, even if that pup turns out to be no pup at all.

I was fortunate in finding a good breeder of English Shepherds after I decided that's what might be the best fit for Kaija & me at this point in our lives. (I still love GSDs, of course, and if I'm lucky, I'll have another one in my future.) I emailed her & explained my situation & history & asked her if the breed was one I should consider. She happened to have a young adult available whom she felt might be a good fit for us. (Bonus: He's already been through the puppy stage. That was one of my concerns, as I'm an only human & work full time & might not always be able to take a pup to work with me.) Turned out, she was right! Kaija & I went to meet him, and we all hit it off immediately.  

I've met some perfectly good, very nice dogs I wouldn't want to live with. Nothing wrong with them at all; they just aren't for me, and I'm not for them. As we've seen here, not all dogs of a breed are identical in personality & working style. Anyone who thinks GSDs are "cookie cutter" dogs with the only considerations being gender and colour should probably choose from one of the "simpler-minded" breeds. ;-)


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

As always there are catagories of buyers and breeders. The first is the newbies who may or may not have the experience to make good decisions regarding the quality of there breeding or the buyer who does not have the experience to choose properly. The next is the vested and balanced group who have the experiences to define the quality and characteristics of the breeding and buyer who can work with a reputable breeder in making a good selection. Then there are the experts which come in various forms, those who can keep their ego's in check and those who know all and see all.

I have experienced all 3 and for the most part, the reputable breeders want to work in partnership with the buyer for all the right reasons, at all levels. Solid breeders whether doing it full time or a couple of litters per year, invest time, time effort and expense and certainly want to get positive feedback on their pups. It is a business, but it is also an attempt to produce good representatives of the breed and satisfied owners. 

I have also seen buyers who a just starting with the breed, have only had one dog of the breed and clearly make decisions that are self generated or directed by a not so reputable breeder that creates some real mismatches. After you have had 2 or 3 GSD's you develop a knowledge base for the next selection and work along with usually higher quality breeder in partnership to make the selection. This is especially true if you have engaged in some form of defined, structured activity. Then there are those who are truly commited to a selection for a fulltime function whether an official job or high level competition and this group will go to the breeder and be less influenced by the breeder as they do understand what they are looking for.

In general there are many more that should seek out a reputable breeder and work with them.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

A rescue or a shelter is interested in one thing that a dog gets a good home-


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

holland said:


> A rescue or a shelter is interested in one thing that a dog gets a good home-


Really?

I've heard many a story of rescues and shelters that wouldn't even talk to people interested because there was no fenced yard or that person owned an intact dog (or cat!) of another breed. Or they can't get a small dog bc they already own a large dog. Or they can't get a big dog because they already own a small dog. Or they can't get a rescue because of how their last dog died.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Each rescue defines (just like each breeder) what makes a good home. 

Each rescue has their own policies (just like each breeder) on how their adoption process works and what they can and cannot accept. 

Just because it is not a business does not mean a rescue cannot set up policies and expectations and that it should just do whatever people want it to do. 

I HAD to put up a fence for a Schipperke breeder - who ended up not having a pet quality pup for me to purchase. Instead of being upset that I had "wasted" all that money on a fence (my choice - because I wanted a Schip), I enjoyed the heck out of it with my dogs, including an adopted Schip mix who showed me that the breeder was very right in insisting on that fence! 

I will add to that - we want to ensure that a dog gets a good MATCH home, just like this thread began the discussion.


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Iletthedogout sounds like you have experienced some rejection.
> 
> If you came to me , guess what, I would get to know you and then try to match the right dog to you. If for some reason you feel strongly that the choice is not correct you have every opportunity to explain to me why you feel this. Then I will demonstrate why my selection was made, consider the one you feel is right . If there is some validity to your findings , fine, if not I will show you why not , or give you the opportunity to come another time , and another time to see if what I have seen or you saw was a trend, consistent .
> 
> ...


no rejection. i would enjoy discussing your breeding insight at length. it fact i would spend more than 2 hours with you observing the litter. it might be several dozen hours in meetings, telephone calls, talking to previous purchasers of your dogs - products, other breeders who are familiar with you and your dogs. after all that I would make a selection. 

the notion that people would just show up for a few hours and fawn over the cute puppies and make a snap decision without the benefit of your divine intervention and thus you know best is another example of your arrogance IMO. 

it sounds like you love your dogs and care where they end up. that would play a significant part in choosing you as a breeder. all of which will be taken into consideration when I select the new member of my family.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Really?
> 
> I've heard many a story of rescues and shelters that wouldn't even talk to people interested because there was no fenced yard or that person owned an intact dog (or cat!) of another breed. Or they can't get a small dog bc they already own a large dog. Or they can't get a big dog because they already own a small dog. Or they can't get a rescue because of how their last dog died.


 
Not really sure what your point is-And there aren't breeder like that?


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

Thank GOODNESS the breeder has the final say in who gets their pups!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dogaroo said:


> Thank GOODNESS the breeder has the final say in who gets their pups!


LOL! I agree!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Iletthedogout said:


> If a breeders says to me that her breedlines produce working dogs that require extensive training and a job to do and I say that I'm more interested in a family companion dog. Then it would be appropriate for the breeder to suggest that I look somewhere else.


Halo's breeder produces working dogs AND active pet dogs. I was looking for an active family companion. Most litters have some of those as well as the more hard core dogs that are suited for competing in Schutzhund or other sports such as agility (which many of her puppy buyers do) or as personal protection dogs (which some of her dogs are) or as working K9s, (which at least one is) or SAR (one of Halo's littermates is being trained in SAR, and another dog from an earlier litter is certified in human remains detection). 

When I inquired about Halo I didn't know if a working line dog would be right for me and I was concerned that she would be "too much" dog for me to handle. People on the board that know me and also know the breeder and had met Halo when she was brought to training thought that she would be perfect for our home and lifestyle, and they encouraged me to contact the breeder about her. When I expressed my concerns about getting a working line dog the breeder gently explained that a high drive working puppy wouldn't be offered to me because it wouldn't be a good match. I appreciated that. 



> *I'm not suggesting that the breeders input isn't valuable. I just think there needs to be a balance that includes what the buyer wants.*


But you're missing the point - a good breeder does and will take into consideration what the buyer wants. And that within any litter there will be a range of temperaments suitable for a variety of homes. A good breeder will take into consideration what the buyer is looking for and determine which puppy is most suited for that home, or in my case since I was only inquiring about Halo, whether the puppy in question is a good match or not.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Iletthedogout said:


> the notion that people would just show up for a few hours and fawn over the cute puppies and make a snap decision without the benefit of your divine intervention and thus you know best is another example of your arrogance IMO.


It's not arrogance if that assumption is based on their personal experience, if most people that come meet their litters do expect to be able to choose a puppy that way. Why take that personally and get all insulted about it? How would she or any other breeder know you're not one of those people until they've met you and spent some time with you?


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## alvinjamur (Jan 31, 2011)

A person whose name that everybody here will easily recognize as one of the
top competitors and breeders in the world says that it is impossible to do a scientifically valid temperament test on a puppy at 8-12 weeks old. This
person has scientific data, practical experience, as well as national 
championships to back up that statement. That old way of putting a 
pup on its back and restraining thing to test temperament is just that - old 
and not scientifically proven. In fact, he lets his clients pick up whatever 
pups they like from his litters...if he wants to keep one of the pups he 
does so at the end. 

Even in a whelping pen, puppies are exposed to different things.One might 
be asleep while another may experience something while awake. It makes 
sense. The estimate is around 30%-70% to (30% for genetics and 70% for
experience). 

May I suggest these books :

Inside of a Dog, Alexandra Horowitz
Excel-Erated Learning, Pamela J. Reid

Once you agree with the science of conditioning (Pamela Reid)
and also some bio-evolutionary facts (Alexandra Horowitz) the
conception of dogs will undergo a radical change.

- aLV


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

alvinjamur said:


> May I suggest these books :
> 
> Inside of a Dog, Alexandra Horowitz
> Excel-Erated Learning, Pamela J. Reid
> ...


They're both interesting books, I've read those and others. I'll just say that spending some time in training situations with certain authors made me wonder about some of the information in their books.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> They're both interesting books, I've read those and others. I'll just say that spending some time in training situations with certain authors made me wonder about some of the information in their books.


A friend of mine recently read Horowitz's book and pointed out that she didn't seem to know the difference between a livestock guardian dog and a herding dog....

http://amzn.com/k/RNKIZJ9MJSY8


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> A friend of mine recently read Horowitz's book and pointed out that she didn't seem to know the difference between a livestock guardian dog and a herding dog....
> 
> http://amzn.com/k/RNKIZJ9MJSY8



Too funny. there's a huge difference between the 2!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

have the books, read the books. Very good in that they attempt to view the dog from the dogs perspective. I must get the dogs to read the books and get their input. I would recommend reading them.

Iletthedogout , I would welcome you to my home to spend as much time as you need even if it is every second day for hours on end until I understood you so that when the time came you could make the best and most intelligent choice later on.

I don't get it when people have picked out "their" pup and it is only two weeks of age. Nothing to see folks.

You would be able to visit them when they are about 5 weeks of age , when they start being a little more dynamic and socially aware.

Pups could leave around 8 weeks of age. That gives you about 21 days to visit and consider . An elimination process would start. Taking away the unsuitable FOR YOUR NEEDS , and focusing on the most interesting prospects, till we arrive and you agree that a correct selection is made.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## bornfreenowexpensive (Mar 27, 2011)

Wow, this thread really took off!

The reason I posted this initially was because I had a couple of breeders putting pressure on me to take an older puppy sooner than I was ready to. I recognize my "noob-ness" and was trying to get up to speed really fast, which as we all know is impossible. So I did some thinking about what I really need/want for my first GSD, narrowed my breeder search and went out to meet some people.

FWIW, my personal opinion is that if a breeder needs to choose a puppy for me with no input allowed, I'm probably in over my head. That type of breeding is obviously producing dogs that could be too much for me as a novice GSD owner. I have a deposit down on a newborn puppy now, and we will see how she turns out. After spending hours with her sire and numerous other dogs of similar breeding (while being thoroughly interviewed about my lifestyle, training philosophy, needs and wants, etc.), I'm pretty confident that the dogs this breeder is producing are the right fit for me. However, if this particular puppy turns out to be a vicious whirlwind of terror, I'm sure the breeder will help me choose a different puppy or let me wait for the next litter. For me, it was all about finding a breeder that inspired trust and listened to what I wanted.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't think anybody here was recommending a breeder that chooses puppies for people without any input. How could they do that? Good breeders are matching the puppy to the buyer by what the buyer is telling them they are looking for. 

You sound like you are looking for a lower drive dog and that's something that a breeder would be looking for from a litter for you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

> the notion that people would just show up for a few hours and fawn over the cute puppies and make a snap decision without the benefit of your divine intervention and thus you know best is another example of your arrogance IMO.
> 
> it sounds like you love your dogs and care where they end up. that would play a significant part in choosing you as a breeder. all of which will be taken into consideration when I select the new member of my family.


 
Iletthedogsout, I am totally and absolutely confused. How is one to win in this situation. You have no experience from the breeders perspective . When I act responsibly and try my best to assure that my animals and the families , people that they are going to have positive experiences then there is the snide comment that it is divine (gee thanks!!) intervention and arrogance .
Then this same care and consideration is praise worthy and desirable . So which is it.

Boy, dogs are so much easier to understand. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

What are you trying to win? Its ok for you to make snide comments to her but its not ok for her to make snide coments back While breeders may be more knowledgeable I guess if they view me as the village idiot then I can go elsewhere. There are other breeds and other places


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

bornfreenowexpensive said:


> The reason I posted this initially was because I had a couple of breeders putting pressure on me to take an older puppy sooner than I was ready to.


OK that's a completely different situation. Yes the older puppy might be perfect, but if you're not ready then that should be respected. It's easier to sell the little baby puppies, don't like to feel like I'm being sold a "leftover." Might not be the case, but it still smacks of that.

OTOH I bought Ianna when she was 14 weeks and she was a wonderful puppy  AND she was already completely housebroken!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The original poster bornfree was presented some 12 week pups from a past litter and decided that they were going to wait until a new litter was available so that they can have a wider choice to select from. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think that bornfree will appreciate the breeders input to help the decision making .

It is you holland and iletthedogsout that want to go in and choose any pup from the litter . You can do so but those breeders are called bybs or petshop pups. Pay on line, use your visa , give me the cash and get that furry butt (of the pup!!) out the door --- oh and good luck , don't call me if you have a problem.

You can't in one statement trash and then praise for breeder input.

Just wanted to state that this has nothing to do with the OP.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The OP clearly stated that they wanted a dog to do training and sport work. All pups are different in a litter and some are more suited for this in a litter than others. For a person with this focus, I would think they would be prudent to seek the advice of the breeder. I also would think the OP would seek breeders that train and do sport as it seems to make sense. If you want a dog with no special expectations in structured activites, then go to the same type of breeder, and more times than not they will let you pick your puppy out.


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