# Transitioning to an "outdoor" dog?



## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Hi all, 
I've struggled with this a bit, trying to decide how to best handle Willow, me being single with a full-time job that is sometimes field-based (meaning long days away from home). My initial plan was for Willow to be a primarily indoor dog, and I would crate her or, eventually, leave her loose in the house while I'm working. But...I hate the idea of being stuck in the field longer than I anticipate, and her having to go the bathroom or being otherwise miserable stuck in a crate. Hiring a dog-walker isn't really an option since she doesn't trust anybody else but me. 

So, I'm thinking of transitioning her to spending the days outside. She loves cold weather anyway, it seems, though now when I do put her outside she explores for a little while but then comes to the backdoor and waits to be let back in. She loves outdoors but only when I'm there with her, which isn't surprising, I guess. I'd like to get her used to spending days out there. 

I am of course going to be letting her back inside when I'm home and at night. If the temps are exceedingly cold, I won't leave her outside (and I probably wouldn't be doing field work those days anyway). I purchased one of those insulated dog Igloos which should hopefully arrive in the next couple of weeks, and I can also buy some straw to put in there. 

My yard is pretty big and completely 6-foot fenced, although there's a small section along the front of the house that is only 4.5-feet high...a white picket fence. She has never shown any inclination to jump it, and I've been trying to teach her that she's only allowed to come through the gate into the front yard when I tell her it's OK (making her sit, stay, and only come when I say OK). 

Any tips on making the transition? Is it just a trial and error thing, I should just leave her for longer and longer periods of time until she's spending most of the day out there?


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

I should also add why I think this is the best idea for now....I've tried taking Willow into the field with me, but her whining in the truck is seriously driving me batty. It's nonstop. Even when she's in a crate. If I can build a permanent crate thing for the bed of the truck, it'd at least make me not have to listen to her whining. I've known two of the game wardens that have done this for their dogs. And really, we're not supposed to have dogs in the cabs of the trucks anyway, it's in our employee rule book.

I have no idea why she whines like this. She's always happy to go with me in the truck, jumps up into the crate like it's her favorite thing ever, and then proceeds to whine nonstop until I let her out. Telling her "quiet!", ignoring her, yelling at her, hitting the crate (yes I know that's me losing my temper but it's seriously the most annoying thing ever), does NOTHING. So...taking her to work is kind of off the table.

And the work I do...I feel like she'd be happier and less stressed out being in the backyard all day than being in a crate in my truck. In the next couple of weeks I'm supposed to be catching bighorn sheep to collar, and we'll be jumping in and out of the truck, chasing sheep, shooting dart guns out of the truck, etc. I'm also helping with an elk capture next week and requested to be ground support, but Willow would have to tolerate a very noisy helicopter landing nearby to be refueled periodically and I don't imagine she'd enjoy that. It's either that or I have to fly in the spotter plane, and leave her in her crate in the truck and only let her out to run around (in an unfamiliar airport) when the plane has to stop to refuel. Then in the spring I start elk surveys, which are EXTREMELY early mornings when I just know I'm not going to want to wake up at 3am so I can feed her, wait an hour, walk her so she poops/pees, and then go.

So....yeah, that's why I'm thinking this is the best way to go.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> Hi all,
> I've struggled with this a bit, trying to decide how to best handle Willow, me being single with a full-time job that is sometimes field-based (meaning long days away from home). My initial plan was for Willow to be a primarily indoor dog, and I would crate her or, eventually, leave her loose in the house while I'm working. But...I hate the idea of being stuck in the field longer than I anticipate, and her having to go the bathroom or being otherwise miserable stuck in a crate. Hiring a dog-walker isn't really an option since she doesn't trust anybody else but me.
> 
> So, I'm thinking of transitioning her to spending the days outside. She loves cold weather anyway, it seems, though now when I do put her outside she explores for a little while but then comes to the backdoor and waits to be let back in. She loves outdoors but only when I'm there with her, which isn't surprising, I guess. I'd like to get her used to spending days out there.
> ...


Do you have a garage with a door that opens into your fenced yard? Our previous dogs (non-gsd) spent long days alone outside. We put a dog door in the human access door to the yard. If they wanted to be out they could. If they wanted to be in the garage they had free access to it. If it was cold, hot, snowing or raining they had the whole garage to take shelter in. We put food and water in the garage when they needed to be in the garage. They had a dog bed and for summer heat we installed a ceiling fan for air flow and cooling. They did just fine. I will say that our current gsd is a house dog. Mostly because, unlike the past, I am now home all day and that is how she was brought up. She is a nuisance barker so I don't leave her out. Plus I don't trust some of my neighbors not to harrass/harm her (we had to install cameras and put a padlock on the inside of our 6 ft gate...ugh). 
If this is an option it will take some training. Short trips out to start just putting her out and leaving for say 30 minutes to see how she does and increasing the time. Willow is smart and she will learn. Just make sure there is nothing she can get into that is dangerous to her.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Springbrz said:


> Do you have a garage with a door that opens into your fenced yard? Our previous dogs (non-gsd) spent long days alone outside. We put a dog door in the human access door to the yard. If they wanted to be out they could. If they wanted to be in the garage they had free access to it. If it was cold, hot, snowing or raining they had the whole garage to take shelter in. We put food and water in the garage when they needed to be in the garage. They had a dog bed and for summer heat we installed a ceiling fan for air flow and cooling. They did just fine. I will say that our current gsd is a house dog. Mostly because, unlike the past, I am now home all day and that is how she was brought up. She is a nuisance barker so I don't leave her out. Plus I don't trust some of my neighbors not to harrass/harm her (we had to install cameras and put a padlock on the inside of our 6 ft gate...ugh).
> If this is an option it will take some training. Short trips out to start just putting her out and leaving for say 30 minutes to see how she does and increasing the time. Willow is smart and she will learn. Just make sure there is nothing she can get into that is dangerous to her.


Thanks! Yes, I do have a garage with a door into the backyard and I considered this. The garage is super tiny though, just barely big enough to fit my Honda Accord, and I'd need to do a very thorough job cleaning up all the junk that's currently in there (lawn chemicals, gas, etc.). When my car is in there, there's not much room leftover. 

I also have a little backyard shed that I'm considered putting the doghouse in and letting that be Willow's retreat. It's not insulated or anything, would just be protection from the elements, maybe slightly warmer than outside. There'd be plenty of room in it for her; it's probably about the size of a standard dog run, and I'd leave the door to the yard open.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> Thanks! Yes, I do have a garage with a door into the backyard and I considered this. The garage is super tiny though, just barely big enough to fit my Honda Accord, and I'd need to do a very thorough job cleaning up all the junk that's currently in there (lawn chemicals, gas, etc.). When my car is in there, there's not much room leftover.
> 
> I also have a little backyard shed that I'm considered putting the doghouse in and letting that be Willow's retreat. It's not insulated or anything, would just be protection from the elements, maybe slightly warmer than outside. There'd be plenty of room in it for her; it's probably about the size of a standard dog run, and I'd leave the door to the yard open.


She would probably like the shed. The important thing is a place to take shelter from the elements. If you decide to use the shed to train her it's her space I would use treat training. Put a pile of treats and/or a chew in there and show her it's her space. If she has a dog bed in the house now move it to the shed. Get a new one for the house. She will know it's her bed and a place to be. Good luck.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Some pics of the tiny garage, the shed, and the fence. Right now, there's lots of bad dog stuff in easy reach in the garage and I need to give it a good sweeping to get rid of the Weed N' Feed that's spilled on the ground. I also keep her dog food in there, but hopefully can find another option for storing that.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Once cleaned up the garage has plenty of space for Willow. Your shed is a nice space with plenty of light and room. If you use the shed I would find a way to secure the door open so it doesn't blow shut and trap her inside. That said I would consider putting a dog door in under the window by the door if that is a financial option. Then the shed door can stay closed. Less wind, snow, rain to enter the shed. My only concern is that 4 ft fencing. To easy for people to reach over and her to jump over if she is enticed to do so (rabbit, cat, other dog or people walking by).


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Is a dog door into your house out of the question at this point? There are dog doors with locks that sense a collar tag and unlock only when that's present. It would allow her to run inside if dangerous critters came around.

I also totally agree on that fencing not being a high enough protective barrier to keep her in (or any other dog out) when she's unattended. Once she learns it's jumpable, it will be game-over for that fence.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

I agree the garage seems the better option with a doggie door. You have 2 things to correct here, cleaning up the garage to make it safe and blocking off access to the low picket fence. IMO, that fence won't suffice. My unathletic
female used to jump a 6 ft. privacy fence when she wanted, so fair warning.

Maybe you can take your dog to work 1 or 2 days per week. Something I've noticed w/ my dog is that her whining is
a notch down from anxiety barking. So maybe work on your dog's anxiety in the vehicle.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Magwart said:


> Is a dog door into your house out of the question at this point? There are dog doors with locks that sense a collar tag and unlock only when that's present. It would allow her to run inside if dangerous critters came around.
> 
> I also totally agree on that fencing not being a high enough protective barrier to keep her in (or any other dog out) when she's unattended. Once she learns it's jumpable, it will be game-over for that fence.


Re: dog door, yeah kinda, due to the expense and the fact that my house is small and I really really don't want muddy/wet dog to mess it up. I know that's kind of vain but...having a clean house is one of the things that keeps me sane and less stressed out.

For the fence, I have called fencing companies to see if I could have that short section of fence replaced with 6-feet. Unfortunately I can't get anyone to call me back....this valley is pretty hot for development right now and fencing companies are getting a lot more $$$ building fences around new subdivisions than fixing my one 25-foot span of short fence. I am thinking of maybe putting up stock panels or otherwise doing some kind of do-it-yourself fix that's affordable and hopefully not too ugly.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Haha, a fencing company actually answered the phone and they're on their way!! We'll see how much this costs....

I also contacted a handyman I've used before and I'll ask him about installing a dog door in the shed and/or exterior garage door. Maybe the one in the shed'll be something I can do myself....just need a saw and drill and some screws, eh?  I have no idea!


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Some pics of the tiny garage, the shed, and the fence. Right now, there's lots of bad dog stuff in easy reach in the garage and I need to give it a good sweeping to get rid of the Weed N' Feed that's spilled on the ground. I also keep her dog food in there, but hopefully can find another option for storing that.


Holy crap your yard is HUGE and that shed that would be perfect, I think if you're out of options that would be the best bet


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

@banaiz555 installing a dog dog in the shed wall would be pretty easy. The doors come with templates. A saw and a screwdriver is probably all you would need. You could do it I have faith. Or your handyman could get it done in probably 30 minutes.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

T'Challa! said:


> Holy crap your yard is HUGE and that shed that would be perfect, I think if you're out of options that would be the best bet


Haha yeah and the pic is just of the side yard; the rest of the backyard is probably 2x as big. The front yard is nice too; unlike most other houses around here, my house is set right in the middle of the property instead of at the front, so my back and front yards are about the same size. Nice because there'll be some distance between the street and Willow if she's at the fence, so hopefully nothing will tempt her unless it actually comes into my yard. 

The fence guy was here and I think this will be reasonable...needed to get some other things fixed too (gates and such), but he said since the 25-foot span is so short, he can probably use leftover materials and it'll be really inexpensive. So, yay for that!! Now I just have to trust that 6 feet is too tall for Willow to jump...


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Haha yeah and the pic is just of the side yard; the rest of the backyard is probably 2x as big. The front yard is nice too; unlike most other houses around here, my house is set right in the middle of the property instead of at the front, so my back and front yards are about the same size. Nice because there'll be some distance between the street and Willow if she's at the fence, so hopefully nothing will tempt her unless it actually comes into my yard.
> 
> The fence guy was here and I think this will be reasonable...needed to get some other things fixed too (gates and such), but he said since the 25-foot span is so short, he can probably use leftover materials and it'll be really inexpensive. So, yay for that!! Now I just have to trust that 6 feet is too tall for Willow to jump...


That's awesome! Good luck I'm sure it will work out!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm late to respond but just thought to share what I do to make sure my dogs are comfortable in their garden shed kennel.Lining the inside walls with straw bales two high and a thick blanket of straw on the floor keeps them comfy on sub zero days when they have to be left all day occasionally.BTW I'm glad you're doing something with that picket fence.My dogs would be over that in no time flat!


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

banzai555 said:


> I should also add why I think this is the best idea for now....I've tried taking Willow into the field with me, but her whining in the truck is seriously driving me batty. It's nonstop. Even when she's in a crate. If I can build a permanent crate thing for the bed of the truck, it'd at least make me not have to listen to her whining. I've known two of the game wardens that have done this for their dogs. And really, we're not supposed to have dogs in the cabs of the trucks anyway, it's in our employee rule book.
> 
> I have no idea why she whines like this. She's always happy to go with me in the truck, jumps up into the crate like it's her favorite thing ever, and then proceeds to whine nonstop until I let her out. Telling her "quiet!", ignoring her, yelling at her, hitting the crate (yes I know that's me losing my temper but it's seriously the most annoying thing ever), does NOTHING. So...taking her to work is kind of off the table.
> 
> ...


my girl is also a German Whiner Dog, drives me absolutely insane. It’s pretty common, unfortunately, and I can’t imagine any way to fix it that I haven’t already tried and failed.

Stick her in a crate in the back and earplugs is what I’ve settled on. Thank goodness my other dog is quiet.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Oh I forgot to ask, why not just install a dog door?


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Tennessee said:


> Oh I forgot to ask, why not just install a dog door?


I don't want to. My house is small, I'm kinda house proud, and the thought of Willow tracking in dirt and mud and stuff makes me cringe. I already am vacuuming every other day because of how much she's shedding. I know I could theoretically close off the dog door if it's rainy or snowy out, but I feel like that'd just confuse her...like one minute she's free to go, the next she's not.

Plus I'm not yet at the point where I'm comfortable leaving her loose in the house. She got into my garbage can last time I left her and I wouldn't put it past her to open the pantry or refrigerator doors if she got motivated enough. I'd just feel better with her being in the yard when I can't be there to let her out to go to the bathroom. And also have access to water (I don't give her water in her crate).

And yeah, the whining. Ugh. I hate the thought of having to wear headphones or earplugs in the car (I think it's illegal, actually), but if we ever have to do long trips I guess that's what I'm gonna have to do. Has it improved at all for your dog as time has gone by?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Is she a barker?

Once you fix the fence that would be my biggest concern. GSDs aren't great yard dogs, they bark. And bark. And bark. A bark collar would solve that, but it's another expense.

I'd also invest in some basic, motion activated, wifi cameras so you can check on her throughout the day.

All of what you say about your job makes me jealous as a former wildlife biologist, but also confident in the decision I made to transfer to a different type of job- it's really hard to have dogs and work field jobs!


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Muskeg said:


> Is she a barker?
> 
> Once you fix the fence that would be my biggest concern. GSDs aren't great yard dogs, they bark. And bark. And bark. A bark collar would solve that, but it's another expense.
> 
> ...


So far she hasn't been a barker. She only barks AT things (dogs, people). She's a whiner, though. As soon as I start leaving her, I'll ask my neighbors to let me know if she starts barking or whining excessively. And I'm basically surrounded by retirees (retirees live in the houses all around me) so I'm kinda counting on them to let me know how things go, haha....

Most of my coworkers have dogs...but most of them are also married, and have a partner who can help take care of their dogs. I don't have that luxury and honestly, this late in life, doubt if I ever will (especially now that I have a dog that doesn't like other people...."sure, come over for dinner Mr. Right, just ignore the dog barking and growling at you"). But yeah it's a fun job, mostly, except for the public, and the hours, and the injuries, and the low pay...


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Hahaha..."this late in life" I've seen your picture...you are a baby. Mr. Right if he comes along will be the guy Willow loves and he loves her. Dogs can be great judges of character !!! If Willow likes a guy he may be worth a closer look lol !!!


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## markhenley (Apr 23, 2018)

I'm late to this, but am chiming in. If I were you, I would work on training her to not whine in the truck and take her with you. GSDs are working dogs as I'm sure you're aware. Leaving a GSD in a yard for long hours or more than a day (in my opinion) is sinful.

First, what kind of whining is it? Is it when you do something or when you're driving? Or when she sees something? Or is it just whining for whining sake. Some GSDs are very talkative. My previous GSD, Rudy, would just talk. It was weird, but once I know what he was up to, I kind of laughed at it. I would talk back to him and mess around with him and he would settle down. Most GSDs are fairly emotional dogs and yes, they whine, and bark and do things that protection dogs and working dogs do 

Have you done any basic obedience with her? If not, that is step one. Attend an obedience class at a community college, dog club, even PetSmart. Try using a marker to establish a connection to when she is doing the "right" thing. You drive a lot? Do you have an Audible account? Download The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller. Or get the book. You can look up Tawzerdog on YouTube. Many canine behaviorists are on that site and might give you some interesting insight into stopping the whining.

"The Power of Positive Dog Training" is simply one of the best books on dog communication and training that exists, anywhere. It is a treasure. Miller discusses how to break these kind of issues in part 3 of the book, often by shaping behavior so that the dog learns gradually over a few session what to do.

You've probably seen Victoria Stilwell 'It's me or the Dog'. One technique that I've seen her do for dogs barking in the car is to completely block their view when they bark, and she let's them see again when they shut up. Hey, say what you want, if it works who cares if the answer came from reality TV lol. There is at least 2 episodes of her doing this. 

Don't leave your dog out in the yard all day by itself... that's just uncool. I did this with my first GSD 40 years ago, and I regret it to this day. My dog suffered. But that was back in the day, so no one cared. She kept jumping the fence and getting into trouble. I would get SOOOOOOOO mad that I would blow a head gasket. Shame on me... I was wrong. These dogs love to be with their family and they need a pack and you should provide one. 

Do you have any friends that like dogs? Could your neighbor help? You might look at Doggie Day Care too, but I would put that down on the list after exhausting the training route.

Good luck. Please let us know what happens.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

It would be great if you could teach your dog to relax in the truck. My gal-dog used to be quite the whiner but has settled down quite nicely. It can be done. It would be easier to teach her during some time off with a friend to help encourage calm behavior. Start in the driveway, then work around the block, then a couple of blocks, etc. That way you'll have more options. Also over time, she may become more accepting of strangers. But that is another issue that you can work on separately.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

How is leaving her in the yard for 8+ hours worse than leaving her in her crate for 8+ hours? I don't have a choice. I feel like at least I'm better than many alternatives--she gets at least 1 hour (usually 2 hours) of exercise per day via walks and fetch, I take care of her, I am doing training, etc. She seems happy. Yeah I know being with her 24/7 is ideal but somebody's gotta pay for the dog food around here. In her past life she was kept in a dog run all the time, or in a 5th wheel with a dog that bullied her. 

I would loooooove for her to stop whining in the truck. Honestly she did pretty well when we were driving back and forth to the check station (about 20 minutes each way) but even then, she'd whine when we started and she'd whine whenever we slowed down coming into town or when I'd have to jump out of the truck real quick to do something. I can't really reward her when she's quiet, because she's in a crate in the backseat and...I gotta drive, yo. I tried passing her little treats through the slits in the crate when she was quiet and it would work for like...10 seconds. I really have no idea why she whines. She sleeps in that crate when the truck's parked, seems perfectly content in there but...when we're moving, she's a whining machine and it DOESN'T. STOP. Yeah, she also whines when we're about to go for a walk or when she's about to be fed so I'm guessing it's an excitement thing, and I'm trying to be consistent about not walking her until she's quiet. But scolding her for whining only seems to make it worse. It's really bad. The trainer wants me to buy a shock collar and said that might help, but...I'm on the fence. 

Plenty of dogs are outdoor dogs. And it would only be for the day while I'm at work. I don't understand why that's "sinful", especially compared to being crated in the house, which toooooons of people do (including my trainer) and it seems like that's perfectly acceptable among many dog owners. I feel like having the freedom to pee, drink, and run around as you want would be better than being crated. And with my schedule (not necessarily knowing when I'll be home, getting stuck in the field, etc.) makes it a better option. We can't all stay home with ours dogs 24/7 but that does that mean we shouldn't have dogs?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Relax. It is only Mark's opinion. Many of us have seen dogs stuck outdoors and ignored for far too long. This tends to color our view of outdoor dogs. It looks like you are putting plenty of thought into this. With a better fence and warm shelter in the shed I think your gal would do just fine. You will have to condition her to being left outside along. As with most training start small and work your way up.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

https://www.gocomics.com/thebuckets/2019/12/08 Just to lighten things up a bit


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Sounds like a good set up to me with the new fence and putting the hay in shed and dog house. We have railroad timbers that are at the bottom of our fence, I did these for any digging ideas of our dogs or neighbors dogs! It didn't prevent the neighbors minpin mix from squeezing in thru the gate pole, but I drove a pipe between that and that stopped that!
Moo is a senior, but he started having some whining in the car, never did before, I had taken him on 8-9 hour trips no problem, but then a trip to the vet 5-6 miles away and he's whining to the point I pulled into the park before we got home to see if he needed to pee! After we got him on meds for issues he's having he hasn't whined in the car, but I haven't taken him on any long trips to "test" it.
is the car crate padded? I just wondered if maybe the vibration might make her whine, she's recently spayed? And maybe a filled Kong to work on might help along with the tips on training like car2ner gave!


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

readaboutdogs said:


> Sounds like a good set up to me with the new fence and putting the hay in shed and dog house. We have railroad timbers that are at the bottom of our fence, I did these for any digging ideas of our dogs or neighbors dogs! It didn't prevent the neighbors minpin mix from squeezing in thru the gate pole, but I drove a pipe between that and that stopped that!
> Moo is a senior, but he started having some whining in the car, never did before, I had taken him on 8-9 hour trips no problem, but then a trip to the vet 5-6 miles away and he's whining to the point I pulled into the park before we got home to see if he needed to pee! After we got him on meds for issues he's having he hasn't whined in the car, but I haven't taken him on any long trips to "test" it.
> is the car crate padded? I just wondered if maybe the vibration might make her whine, she's recently spayed? And maybe a filled Kong to work on might help along with the tips on training like car2ner gave!


The noise and/or vibration could be the issue....the crate isn't very good (it's a plastic crate I found on the corner with a "free" sign on it!). The gate rattles like crazy despite my attempts to tie it down, and yeah, the truck itself kinda rides rough so on particularly bad roads, the crate vibrates a lot. That could be the issue. But even before I started using the crate, she would whine incessantly in vehicles--still does in my car, which is crateless. I got the crate hoping it would quiet her down in the truck at least. And it did, kinda....as long as the road isn't too bumpy.

In short, not a very easy answer...


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

true, I've not had a dog whine in the car except for moo's bit with it. I think moo's was more medical/mind issues he's been going thru, since now it seems to have stopped with the meds he's on. Made me wonder if she was recently spayed, maybe makes her feel the need to pee? But if doing before that, you're right, not an easy issue! I've seen padded crate cushions at Walmart though, pretty cheap, might be worth a shot or just the ride more comfortable!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yea, you think just like I do...I mentioned before that if I was a dog, I would prefer to be in the fenced yard with a doghouse, rather than crated indoors. I would like to be able to relieve myself whenever I wanted to, look at birds and squirrels, move around to different places to sleep, have some zoomies or toss some toys around if I wanted to, etc. 

My childhood dog spent the day out in the yard with doghouse, from about 7:30am-4pm. She was fine, but did escape twice (thankfully, we got her back safely, but those were some very anxious hours). Also we had reports that kids walking home from school were reaching over the fence to pet her (this was fine, because she was friendly and liked attention...but could have been bad if the kids were teasing her or feeding her weird stuff). She was a Great Dane and there was a St.Bernard (Sarge) that lived on the other side of the fence! He and my dog would lay against eachother, one on each side of the fence...apparently they were buddies. 

I do think that the whining could be trained. She could just be very uncomfortable or feel insecure in the bumpy truck, but if she is doing it in the car on smooth roads as well, then hmmm, not sure. Since it's very hard to time treats while driving(!), with my dog I'd probably use verbal tone of voice. He responds very well to that, and I feel that if I said irritably "Shush! Shush!' when he was whining, and said "Good Boy!" happily when he was quiet, he would eventually get the idea. That's my dog, though...he is very attentive to voice (is that a working/herding dog trait) and has picked up a lot of words too. 

Agreed that the low fence with wide pickets in front is risky! Good that you can get it upgraded at a discount! I think that the shed would be easier/better than the garage, it's smaller and probably would be easier to keep warm and cozy. And hopefully someday she'll be able to go to work with you as well (not every day, but some days)!


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## Dog trainer (Dec 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Hi all,
> I've struggled with this a bit, trying to decide how to best handle Willow, me being single with a full-time job that is sometimes field-based (meaning long days away from home). My initial plan was for Willow to be a primarily indoor dog, and I would crate her or, eventually, leave her loose in the house while I'm working. But...I hate the idea of being stuck in the field longer than I anticipate, and her having to go the bathroom or being otherwise miserable stuck in a crate. Hiring a dog-walker isn't really an option since she doesn't trust anybody else but me.
> 
> So, I'm thinking of transitioning her to spending the days outside. She loves cold weather anyway, it seems, though now when I do put her outside she explores for a little while but then comes to the backdoor and waits to be let back in. She loves outdoors but only when I'm there with her, which isn't surprising, I guess. I'd like to get her used to spending days out there.
> ...


This is a HORRIBLE idea.
Frostbite, cold water that will damage the intestines and immune system will suffer. GS tend to develop nerve damage related to arthritis meaning your dog will lose sense in hind legs sooner than needed

After thirty years of training, I will tell you all, there are a myriad of trainers out there who do not know anything about natural holistic care for a dog, meaning they don't realize how much some conventional training methods damage a dog, dogs psyche and health
My advice is find a decent doggy day care. Get out of bed 1 he early and drive the dog there. If you leave her home, create a doggy door to the yard. So she can come in when she is cold. We have picked up dogs frozen to an icicle. RECORD temperature means we have Never had cold like this, do not assume your animal is well. We are now fighting to keep sled dogs indoor, that's how bad it is, they are suffering from arthritic pain due to century old believe that they're ok in the snow. They're not.
PS: NO one should crate a dog past two months of age. It leads to anxiety, nervous paw biting, and it is bad for their joints. If someone told you to stick a wolf into a crate you would say but he's used to running won't he go crazy!?
One human year is seven years for them YES they are damaged from crating. It's a people comfort and like all ideas that make people comfy it spread. Now plenty of trainers are singing the same song. One man's dog burned to death when the house caught on fire. He barely got out with children. Dog burned in the crate. NO one would have burned if the dog was out of the crate. He would have sensed it coming before the flame ever sparked.
Dogs receive beta waves on the back of their neck
Another reason why prong collars are a horrible thing damaging dogs nerves
There is an Lshaped way to hold a dog leash to prevent all dogs from pulling however big, but people buy prong collars and dogs suffer. The one time they get happiness on a walk they get prongs into their neck. HUMANS pathetic. Get doggy day care or hire a dog walker to come one time mid day to walk your dog nicely. You work long hours you can afford this. Treat your pet like a child or don't get one. It's as simple as that


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

I don't believe that you mentioned where you live. Suffice to say that things aren't like they used to be. Where we used to feel safe in leaving the dogs outside, we don't any more. We hear about dogs being stolen every week, horses being shot, and then there's poisoning by "neighbors". 

I am a retired security professional and was involved in designing integrated security systems for nuclear power plants, the Shuttle facilities at Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg AFB, The White House, and several high-risk government sites.

Depending on where you live and how close the neighbors are to your house, you guys may be fine. You definitely should teach Willow not to take any food or treats or bones from anyone but you. That alone will take some time, but it is doable. 

Second you need to upgrade your fence. I have the dog yard fenced in with a five foot high welded wire mesh fabric. Our dogs seem to know that they shouldn't/couldn't get over the fence. But we were "baby sitting" a friend's Dutch shepherd when she saw deer "out there" and sailed over the fence. Fortunately Heidi got tired of the chase and came back here. I guess that we erred in not telling her that she should not jump the fence.
Go for a six foot minimum fence height.

When I was ten, I met my first German shepherd, Ping. Several years later, Ping and his master moved about three miles away. Harry, Ping's master, had a 8-9 foot pen set up complete with dog house so that Ping could be outside when Harry was at work. Ping seemed to know that he couldn't jump the fence. But he could climb and he did, showing up at our house for his daily snacks. That was every bit of 60 years ago and still remember hearing someone paw at the front door.

I watched as Karma got her paws at the top of the fence today, barking at deer. She kind of "popped up" but didn't try climbing the fence or we'd have been out chasing Karma as Karma chased the deer. It's hunting season here. "Nuff" said. (I don't hunt.)

If your yard can be fenced so that the house is included in the perimeter, then I would suggest putting a dog door. That way Willow has her options. We used to have a dog door, but both dog doors are no longer being used. If you opt for a dog door, get one that has a tag that you put on Willow's collar. That way only Willow will be able to access the house. Guess that my background is showing.

Best of luck


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that having a small kennel in your fenced back yard, preferably on concrete, 5'x10' or 10'x20', doesn't matter but would be best with a dog door into the house, and a roof on the outdoor kennel, and even better if you have the inside area limited, by a baby gate or a covered x-pen, so that your dirty laundry doesn't make its way out in the kennel area. 

She doesn't need a big yard to roam around in when you are not there. It is much harder to ensure that none of your fencing is breached in any way, either by climbing or digging. Because that can be a dead or stolen dog. Also, coyotes or intact males may get in to a large yard, where a secure kennel will be safe. Also, a dog loose all day a yard, is likely to bark, cry, dig holes, and otherwise make a nuisance of herself. 

If you make a small secure kennel in your fenced yard, when you get home, you can open that kennel gate and have a great time with your dog in your yard, weather permitting. Your yard will not be a mud hole or poo-strewn, and you can both enjoy the yard. And then you can send her into the kennel, shut the gate, go in the house and open her inside area so that she can also enjoy the house when you are there to supervise. She will not be drenched and full of mud. She will be clean, because she hasn't been digging to China all day in the rain. You will not spend your first half hour berating her for getting into everything you left about, pulling the guts out of your couch and dragging bits out into the yard. 

At the same time, she is not cooped up in a box for 10 or more hours a day, waiting for you to come home and possibly soiling herself if you are very late. If you need to spend the night at a friend's home, your dog is ok, she is outside. And a nice bucket of water out there, or a heated bucket where she cannot get to the cord, and you don't have to worry about the GSD water hole in the kitchen. ALL GSDs have drinking problems, and moving their water bucket to the outside, means you don't have a water hole in your kitchen. Not the end of the world, but NICE. A big bucket out there, and you don't need to worry about being late home from work, or spending an occasional night away from home. She will be safe and fine, and comfortable, and clean. 

A totally outside dog, well, they tend to lose the status as a family member, because when they are covered in mud and you are tired after a long day at work, it becomes easy to just sigh and leave her out. And that becomes a habit.


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## Lillydog (Feb 4, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Haha, a fencing company actually answered the phone and they're on their way!! We'll see how much this costs....
> 
> I also contacted a handyman I've used before and I'll ask him about installing a dog door in the shed and/or exterior garage door. Maybe the one in the shed'll be something I can do myself....just need a saw and drill and some screws, eh?  I have no idea!


We made a nice homemade dog door in our garage door by knocking a panel out and replacing it with a flap of heavy rubber. You can keep your food in a heavy metal garbage can. The dogs also have a homemade bed made out of it a wooden pallet with carpet nailed on top.


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## JoshMing (Feb 17, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Hi all,
> I've struggled with this a bit, trying to decide how to best handle Willow, me being single with a full-time job that is sometimes field-based (meaning long days away from home). My initial plan was for Willow to be a primarily indoor dog, and I would crate her or, eventually, leave her loose in the house while I'm working. But...I hate the idea of being stuck in the field longer than I anticipate, and her having to go the bathroom or being otherwise miserable stuck in a crate. Hiring a dog-walker isn't really an option since she doesn't trust anybody else but me.
> 
> So, I'm thinking of transitioning her to spending the days outside. She loves cold weather anyway, it seems, though now when I do put her outside she explores for a little while but then comes to the backdoor and waits to be let back in. She loves outdoors but only when I'm there with her, which isn't surprising, I guess. I'd like to get her used to spending days out there.
> ...


Maybe you could try a set up like we did when we lived in Colorado with our first Sheppie. No one was home all day, so we installed a temporary doggie door in the sliding glass door (they sell them at pet stores) and had it go directly into the crate INSIDE the kitchen. That way, our Sheppie could go outside when she wanted, and be warm and safe inside her crate when she wanted. It worked really well, and kept her safe from wildlife (we had bobcats, racoons, snakes, etc.) even though we were in a very residential area. If you think through it, maybe there is a way you could do something similar, so your GSD doesn't have to be outside all day in the heat/cold.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Dog trainer said:


> This is a HORRIBLE idea.
> Frostbite, cold water that will damage the intestines and immune system will suffer. GS tend to develop nerve damage related to arthritis meaning your dog will lose sense in hind legs sooner than needed
> 
> After thirty years of training, I will tell you all, there are a myriad of trainers out there who do not know anything about natural holistic care for a dog, meaning they don't realize how much some conventional training methods damage a dog, dogs psyche and health
> ...


Uhhh....ok. You must have missed the part where I said I wouldn't keep her outside if it was extreme cold. I care greatly for Willow's health and safety and that's why I'm doing this for her. I cannot hire a dog walker because she does not like other humans; last time I had a friend come over to take care of her, Willow hid in the back of the house, peeing all the way, wouldn't come out even for food. And no, I cannot afford daily doggy day care. I guess dog ownership is only for the wealthy or the stay-at-home to you?

And comparing dogs to wolves...in one breath you say "you can't crate a dog, would a wolf like to be crated?" and in the next try to tell me dogs can't take being outside in the cold. Um, where do wolves live? For this being your first post, I feel like you're doing a lot of unfair preaching and I'm not going to read anything else you write. Bu-bye.

*edit* that post was made in regard to "Dog Trainer"'s post whom I've now set to "ignore"... so now I can't see that post, and want to make sure those who made polite replies or gave advice politely didn't think I was being this snarky to them.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

selzer said:


> I think that having a small kennel in your fenced back yard, preferably on concrete, 5'x10' or 10'x20', doesn't matter but would be best with a dog door into the house, and a roof on the outdoor kennel, and even better if you have the inside area limited, by a baby gate or a covered x-pen, so that your dirty laundry doesn't make its way out in the kennel area.
> 
> She doesn't need a big yard to roam around in when you are not there. It is much harder to ensure that none of your fencing is breached in any way, either by climbing or digging. Because that can be a dead or stolen dog. Also, coyotes or intact males may get in to a large yard, where a secure kennel will be safe. Also, a dog loose all day a yard, is likely to bark, cry, dig holes, and otherwise make a nuisance of herself.
> 
> ...


So.....my dog's trainer said GSD's tend not to do well in the small dog runs? And Willow was kept in one during the day with her previous owners, because the other dog was beating up on her. She ended up gnawing all the hair off a spot on her thigh. 

I really am not planning on making her a totally outside dog. I rarely work longer than 8 hours, but those days do occasionally happen (like yesterday...and I took Willow with me, and she did a LOT better with the truck whining so there's hope!!!). I'd also be hesitant to leave her out all day if it was going to be nasty weather (i.e. mud/rain/snow/cold). And I do have that shed, that has windows. 

Lol with the drinking problems...yep. Huuuuuuge mess whenever she drinks water. Never seen anything like it. 

I honestly don't worry too much about her being stolen because a) that doesn't really happen around here, b) she won't let other humans get near her, and c) I'm surrounded by retired neighbors who are home all day. And when/if I have to leave her outside alone for the first time, I'm going to ask my neighbors to let me know if she causes problems (barking, digging, etc.).


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

rabsparks said:


> I don't believe that you mentioned where you live. Suffice to say that things aren't like they used to be. Where we used to feel safe in leaving the dogs outside, we don't any more. We hear about dogs being stolen every week, horses being shot, and then there's poisoning by "neighbors".
> 
> I am a retired security professional and was involved in designing integrated security systems for nuclear power plants, the Shuttle facilities at Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg AFB, The White House, and several high-risk government sites.
> 
> ...


Hi there! I'm in Montana, small town. I know dogs have occasionally been stolen, but they seemed to be more rural/outlying areas. I'm in city limits, and surrounded by retired neighbors who keep an eye on things. I feel like this neighborhood is generally pretty safe; and Willow runs away from strangers, so she might get out of someone opened the gate, but I don't think she'd let a stranger take her. They'd have a fight on their hands. 

I am hoping to get my fence upgraded very soon; got a quote that was very reasonable, now just waiting for the fence people to call me back and get it scheduled. The fence will be 6 feet all around (right now I just have a small porton of 4.5-foot fence and the rest is 6-foot). Willow has not shown any inclination at all to jump. The other day I threw her ball over the 4.5-foot section when she was all amped up, just to see what she'd do. She just looked longingly at the ball through the slats in the fence and waited for me to go get it. 

As for the dog door....yeah. I just don't like that idea honestly, I have visions of coming home to a room covered in mud. I'd have to gate off the back room so that's the only room she could make a mess in. But if I do that, I might as well just keep her in that room without a dog-door; it's tile floor so if she does have an accident it's an easy cleanup. 

It's all just complicated. My house is tiny (only 5 rooms: bedroom, bathroom, living room, kitchen, and sun room), I get stressed when things are dirty, I try hard to keep my small home clean, and I'm limited on rooms I can keep her or her crate in. The yard is huuuuuuge. It just makes the most sense to me....but we'll try things and see what sticks. The most important thing is that Willow is content with whatever system I work out, and that it's something I can manage without having to add a whole lot of cleaning to my chore list.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I think you have really thought things out and you've gotten much good advice. I guess you'll really know best when you try something. Let us know how it goes since your problem is not unusual and surely other people will want to see what works.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I disagree with your trainer, GSDs do fine in small runs if that isn't their entire life. And it depends on what is small. 5x10 is small. But it isn't small if it has a doggy door to a secure indoor area. Like your sun room. For me, the dog doors give peace of mind. 

In NE Ohio, it can be 50 and sunny when I go to work, and 23 and blizzarding when I come home from work. It can be sunny when I leave and then monsoon hits. The thing is, if the kennel is properly sloped, it will shed the rain, if you don't want to do a doggy door, a larger kennel within the fenced yard, with a dog house is perfectly suited to a GSD. If it is really cold, an appropriately sized dog house (not too large) with straw in it will keep a GSD within reason. A dog that is outside 24/7 year round, will probably grow a thicker coat than a dog that spends 2/3 of its life in 68-72 degree weather. But we don't have dogs to be yard ornaments, so having the dog with you when you are not at work, just makes sense. So this means the addition of straw in the dog house might be earlier in the year than dogs left out -- put straw in too early and the dogs just pull it out. 

Leaving the dog in the sun room is problematic for me because you say, the floor is tile, if she make a mess it will be easy to clean. The thing is a house trained dog, does not go to the door when they have to potty, no one home, and then poops. No, they hold it. With more and more distress, they wait for you. If they do make a mess, they act mortified. I think the distress itself sometimes causes them to have a loose stool, then they run back in forth in that waiting for you to let them out. You are greeted at the door of your small house with a undeniable smell and enough times that happens, the dog will become an outdoor dog, or will be rehomed. 

The run within your fenced yard, keeps the dog safe. A doggy door will keep the dog more of an indoor dog than an outdoor dog. Having the run outside your garage, and a pen set up in your garage for her with a doggy door would be fine too. We are just talking about 8 hours a day. Put a cot in there and she's in the lap of luxury while you are working, and when you get home, she's your companion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

banzai555 said:


> How is leaving her in the yard for 8+ hours worse than leaving her in her crate for 8+ hours? I don't have a choice. I feel like at least I'm better than many alternatives--she gets at least 1 hour (usually 2 hours) of exercise per day via walks and fetch, I take care of her, I am doing training, etc. She seems happy. Yeah I know being with her 24/7 is ideal but somebody's gotta pay for the dog food around here. In her past life she was kept in a dog run all the time, or in a 5th wheel with a dog that bullied her.
> 
> I would loooooove for her to stop whining in the truck. Honestly she did pretty well when we were driving back and forth to the check station (about 20 minutes each way) but even then, she'd whine when we started and she'd whine whenever we slowed down coming into town or when I'd have to jump out of the truck real quick to do something. I can't really reward her when she's quiet, because she's in a crate in the backseat and...I gotta drive, yo. I tried passing her little treats through the slits in the crate when she was quiet and it would work for like...10 seconds. I really have no idea why she whines. She sleeps in that crate when the truck's parked, seems perfectly content in there but...when we're moving, she's a whining machine and it DOESN'T. STOP. Yeah, she also whines when we're about to go for a walk or when she's about to be fed so I'm guessing it's an excitement thing, and I'm trying to be consistent about not walking her until she's quiet. But scolding her for whining only seems to make it worse. It's really bad. The trainer wants me to buy a shock collar and said that might help, but...I'm on the fence.
> 
> Plenty of dogs are outdoor dogs. And it would only be for the day while I'm at work. I don't understand why that's "sinful", especially compared to being crated in the house, which toooooons of people do (including my trainer) and it seems like that's perfectly acceptable among many dog owners. I feel like having the freedom to pee, drink, and run around as you want would be better than being crated. And with my schedule (not necessarily knowing when I'll be home, getting stuck in the field, etc.) makes it a better option. We can't all stay home with ours dogs 24/7 but that does that mean we shouldn't have dogs?


Some dogs just travel like that. I've had 2. My current one has actually really improved a lot this year and not by anything I did. But it's obnoxious, I know exactly what you are talking about with the truck whining.

I drove 3 days from FL to New England with a bad traveler and I was about ready to drive off a cliff. I should have drugged him for the trip but it didn't occur to me.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sure you will work it all out and it will be fine. Be it a doggie door into the garage or the shed Willow will have safe shelter from the elements. I thinks it's great that you have a good relationship with your neighbors and can rely on them to tell you if Willow is nuisance barking during the day when you have to leave her home alone with outside access. Willow being accustom to being in a kennel run/ crate situation is actually a plus. She probably isn't likely to bark much but will likely enjoy the extra freedom of the yard when she wants. I hope you know this, but if not, don't let anyone make you feel bad for having to leave Willow out during the day when you have to work long days since you are providing her with shelter. You've given a lot of thought to her safety and comfort. She is a dog and honestly they like being outside in most cases. It's us humans that have trained them to be inside spoiled critters. Trust me I know this as I have one. My previous dogs were inside/outside dogs and did just fine. They went out when we went to work and came in with the family when were home. They were well cared for and loved dearly. They were raised that way and it surely didn't seem to bother them one bit. Current dog was raised as me being stay at home and is clearly conditioned by that. If I left her out while I was gone she would likely have a stroke from anxiety. Shame on me because now we can't be gone more than 8 hours without worrying if the dog has to pee or poop because she isn't conditioned to be outside by herself all day. 

In the past, if we had to be away for just a couple days we hired a trusted person to come and take care of the dogs. We would put them out when we left. The dog sitter would come in the evening, feed them, hang out with them for a while (teenagers love free snacks and tv) and leave the tv on for them over night. Sitter would come by in the morning, give them clean food and water in the garage and let them out for the day. Rinse and repeat. It was all good. We know you have Willows best interests in mind so what ever setup you chose you got this so don't worry too much!


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Dog trainer said:


> This is a HORRIBLE idea.
> Frostbite, cold water that will damage the intestines and immune system will suffer. GS tend to develop nerve damage related to arthritis meaning your dog will lose sense in hind legs sooner than needed
> 
> After thirty years of training, I will tell you all, there are a myriad of trainers out there who do not know anything about natural holistic care for a dog, meaning they don't realize how much some conventional training methods damage a dog, dogs psyche and health
> ...


1) I don't know what kind of trainer you are or training school you went to or if you're self taught, but...no crates after 8 weeks old?! Ok, whatever. My dog loves his crate. Goes in on his own to sleep and relax. No anxiety there...*at all*. If your dog is anxious in the crate, you didn't crate train it right or you just have an anxious dog. I don't have a problem with people who don't believe in crates (and there are a lot of them), but don't give us a bs advice about how crates are harmful when there are just as many people out there who think they ARE helpful.

And yes, there could be a house fire and your dog could be burned alive. And your dog could also get attacked by another dog and killed at a doggie daycare. Which one of these 2 things are more likely to happen? I put my money on the latter.

2) "Beta Waves on the back of the neck?!" WT blank are you talking about?! I get there are people who are into the whole holistic thing and I'm sure some of it works, but give us a break with the metaphysical mumbo jumbo. Banzai needs constructive advice.

3) Prong collars damage dogs' nerves as much as choke collars, no-pull halti collars, regular flat buckle collars, or whatever thing goes around a dog's neck. Anything can damage a dog's neck.

4) "Treat your pet like a child or don't get one." Seriously...no! They're not people. They're dogs. As someone who has trained dogs for 30 years, you should know that you don't treat dogs like people.

5) "You work long hours you can afford this." Who are you to say what she can or can't afford? If you actually read her post, you would've seen the part where she says *her dog doesn't get along with anyone* so getting a dog walker or day care wouldn't work. All you're doing is setting her up for failure. The dog doesn't get along with anyone or anything. There's a chance her dog's going to bite someone or thing and then she'll end up having to put it down.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

selzer said:


> Well, I disagree with your trainer, GSDs do fine in small runs if that isn't their entire life. And it depends on what is small. 5x10 is small. But it isn't small if it has a doggy door to a secure indoor area. Like your sun room. For me, the dog doors give peace of mind.
> 
> In NE Ohio, it can be 50 and sunny when I go to work, and 23 and blizzarding when I come home from work. It can be sunny when I leave and then monsoon hits. The thing is, if the kennel is properly sloped, it will shed the rain, if you don't want to do a doggy door, a larger kennel within the fenced yard, with a dog house is perfectly suited to a GSD. If it is really cold, an appropriately sized dog house (not too large) with straw in it will keep a GSD within reason. A dog that is outside 24/7 year round, will probably grow a thicker coat than a dog that spends 2/3 of its life in 68-72 degree weather. But we don't have dogs to be yard ornaments, so having the dog with you when you are not at work, just makes sense. So this means the addition of straw in the dog house might be earlier in the year than dogs left out -- put straw in too early and the dogs just pull it out.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The reality of the situation is that most of us have to work full time. And while we love our dogs, a lot of us can’t load them up and bring them. You’re lucky to have a job where you can. Unfortunately, it doesnt work with the specific dog. Make him/her comfortable while you’re gone like rest of us and I think she’ll be fine. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Dog trainer said:


> This is a HORRIBLE idea.
> Frostbite, cold water that will damage the intestines and immune system will suffer. GS tend to develop nerve damage related to arthritis meaning your dog will lose sense in hind legs sooner than needed
> 
> After thirty years of training, I will tell you all, there are a myriad of trainers out there who do not know anything about natural holistic care for a dog, meaning they don't realize how much some conventional training methods damage a dog, dogs psyche and health
> ...


One last thing about crates. If you don't like crates, that's great. We all have our own ways of raising/training our dogs. But how do you transport your dog when you need to fly somewhere? Some of us don't have the "luxury" of living in one place our whole lives. We work for companies that move us every 2 years or so. So how do we get our dogs to our new home? Let them loose in the ocean and hope they make it across and find their way to us? How about all those people who take their dogs to Schutzhund training, or to dog shows, or to other dog competitions, or to their winter home down in Florida, or whatever? How do they get their dogs there safely without a crate? Because I seriously doubt you are ok with a loose dog in a vehicle. You said we should treat our dogs like a child. So we put children in child safety seats for safety reasons. Shouldn't we put a dog in a crate for safety reasons? What happens to a dog when a vet needs to keep it overnight for medical reasons in a small cage/kennel and that dog has had no crate training whatsoever? All these situations are going to make your dog really stressed out and anxious because you took away the crate at 8 weeks of age.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

*Let's disagree respectfully please.I've edited out several snarky comments on this thread .Any more name calling will result in warnings and time outs.*


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The only other thing I don't know of anybody mentioned is acclimating her. An acclimated shepherd with a good straw bed and shelter ought to be ok but if she has been in a heated house 90% of time before now she needs to be gradually introduced to longer times in colder temps I would think. OR find a way to leave her a heated bed or shed so she can warm herself if she gets cold.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

rabsparks said:


> I don't believe that you mentioned where you live. Suffice to say that things aren't like they used to be. Where we used to feel safe in leaving the dogs outside, we don't any more. We hear about dogs being stolen every week, horses being shot, and then there's poisoning by "neighbors".
> 
> I am a retired security professional and was involved in designing integrated security systems for nuclear power plants, the Shuttle facilities at Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg AFB, The White House, and several high-risk government sites.
> 
> ...





banzai555 said:


> Hi there! I'm in Montana, small town. I know dogs have occasionally been stolen, but they seemed to be more rural/outlying areas. I'm in city limits, and surrounded by retired neighbors who keep an eye on things. I feel like this neighborhood is generally pretty safe; and Willow runs away from strangers, so she might get out of someone opened the gate, but I don't think she'd let a stranger take her. They'd have a fight on their hands.
> 
> I am hoping to get my fence upgraded very soon; got a quote that was very reasonable, now just waiting for the fence people to call me back and get it scheduled. The fence will be 6 feet all around (right now I just have a small porton of 4.5-foot fence and the rest is 6-foot). Willow has not shown any inclination at all to jump. The other day I threw her ball over the 4.5-foot section when she was all amped up, just to see what she'd do. She just looked longingly at the ball through the slats in the fence and waited for me to go get it.
> 
> ...


I used to tell visitors that we had a "dog house" in light of: the rampant clumps of fur, the various spots where one of our GSDs threw up or had a bout of diarrhea, the missing cushions on the furniture when King decided to tear one or more cushions to shreds, then there was Shali who spent her days when I was at work making the wall-to-wall carpeting throw rugs, the fact that the house was modified back when I had Sarek and Jenn had the rest of the pack (Sarek didn't like other dogs), Wiley (a temporary foster who ended up living out his days here) had to be separate because Wiley didn't like me, and now Karma has to be kept separate because Karma has "resource guarding" issues so that when we feed her it's kind of like "drop her bowl and get the h**l out of there".

You'd think that by now (I'm 72) I wouldn't have one GSD, much less three shepherds. Suffice to say that I wouldn't swap any one of them for the World and never would. They're part of the family...Period.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

rabsparks said:


> I used to tell visitors that we had a "dog house" in light of: the rampant clumps of fur, the various spots where one of our GSDs threw up or had a bout of diarrhea, the missing cushions on the furniture when King decided to tear one or more cushions to shreds, then there was Shali who spent her days when I was at work making the wall-to-wall carpeting throw rugs, the fact that the house was modified back when I had Sarek and Jenn had the rest of the pack (Sarek didn't like other dogs), Wiley (a temporary foster who ended up living out his days here) had to be separate because Wiley didn't like me, and now Karma has to be kept separate because Karma has "resource guarding" issues so that when we feed her it's kind of like "drop her bowl and get the h**l out of there".
> 
> You'd think that by now (I'm 72) I wouldn't have one GSD, much less three shepherds. Suffice to say that I wouldn't swap any one of them for the World and never would. They're part of the family...Period.


Oh my goodness! Your dog house is just like mine. Add in a severely shedding rabbit. (Nice how bunny fur just floats.) Then there's the horse hair. Personally, I don't think eating a little pet hair is going to kill us. I think we're already immune to everything. I wash my hands periodically. It's all good.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

banzai555 said:


> How is leaving her in the yard for 8+ hours worse than leaving her in her crate for 8+ hours? I don't have a choice. I feel like at least I'm better than many alternatives--she gets at least 1 hour (usually 2 hours) of exercise per day via walks and fetch, I take care of her, I am doing training, etc. She seems happy. Yeah I know being with her 24/7 is ideal but somebody's gotta pay for the dog food around here. In her past life she was kept in a dog run all the time, or in a 5th wheel with a dog that bullied her.
> 
> I would loooooove for her to stop whining in the truck. Honestly she did pretty well when we were driving back and forth to the check station (about 20 minutes each way) but even then, she'd whine when we started and she'd whine whenever we slowed down coming into town or when I'd have to jump out of the truck real quick to do something. I can't really reward her when she's quiet, because she's in a crate in the backseat and...I gotta drive, yo. I tried passing her little treats through the slits in the crate when she was quiet and it would work for like...10 seconds. I really have no idea why she whines. She sleeps in that crate when the truck's parked, seems perfectly content in there but...when we're moving, she's a whining machine and it DOESN'T. STOP. Yeah, she also whines when we're about to go for a walk or when she's about to be fed so I'm guessing it's an excitement thing, and I'm trying to be consistent about not walking her until she's quiet. But scolding her for whining only seems to make it worse. It's really bad. The trainer wants me to buy a shock collar and said that might help, but...I'm on the fence.
> 
> Plenty of dogs are outdoor dogs. And it would only be for the day while I'm at work. I don't understand why that's "sinful", especially compared to being crated in the house, which toooooons of people do (including my trainer) and it seems like that's perfectly acceptable among many dog owners. I feel like having the freedom to pee, drink, and run around as you want would be better than being crated. And with my schedule (not necessarily knowing when I'll be home, getting stuck in the field, etc.) makes it a better option. We can't all stay home with ours dogs 24/7 but that does that mean we shouldn't have dogs?


Re: Whining in the truck.
Driving across Canada worked for Shadow, lol. Seriously though, Shadow used to drive me crazy if I had to put her in a vehicle. I drove from Calgary to Canmore with her and Bud in crates in the back of the truck and she howled the entire time. Loud enough that people were giving me funny looks. I put her in the back seat for a 3 hour drive to a hiking spot and she whined the whole way! I wanted to throttle her. Truly. But she was tired on the way home and passed out, much to my relief. After that she whined for the first twenty minutes or so and then settled. When we moved to Ontario she fussed the first day but after that she seemed to settle. So perhaps the key is simply to keep driving until they are so tired they stop. 
As for leaving her outside, dogs are dogs. Lots of dogs never see the inside of a house. As long as she is secured and has shelter and water she will get used to the routine. It seriously annoys me when people act like they are children. Since Bud could not be safely handled by anyone else when I travelled he was secured in a dog run and fed and watered with a no contact system. His shelter had a door that could be secured from outside the fence to allow cleaning and my vet was aware that in an emergency he would need to be tranquilized. It worked just fine for those times when I had no options. A dog hanging out in the yard while you work is not a tragedy. 
As a caution I would check for prior issues with people in your area who bother, harass, harm or steal unattended dogs though. Don't mean to be scary but it is an issue in some places.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> Hi there! I'm in Montana, small town. I know dogs have occasionally been stolen, but they seemed to be more rural/outlying areas. I'm in city limits, and surrounded by retired neighbors who keep an eye on things. I feel like this neighborhood is generally pretty safe; and Willow runs away from strangers, so she might get out of someone opened the gate, but I don't think she'd let a stranger take her. They'd have a fight on their hands.
> 
> I am hoping to get my fence upgraded very soon; got a quote that was very reasonable, now just waiting for the fence people to call me back and get it scheduled. The fence will be 6 feet all around (right now I just have a small porton of 4.5-foot fence and the rest is 6-foot). Willow has not shown any inclination at all to jump. The other day I threw her ball over the 4.5-foot section when she was all amped up, just to see what she'd do. She just looked longingly at the ball through the slats in the fence and waited for me to go get it.
> 
> ...


Another point: You should definitely be aware of the local animal control laws. Some cities, town, et al will let you get away with leaving a dog outside as part of your routine. Others won't allow that. One thing's for sure: you don't want to come back and find that Willow has been "picked up". And since you're employed the Government (federal or state), you don't want to have a major problem there. Better to be safe than sorry. (I'm really not trying to make you any more "hyper" than you started this post. Really.)


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

rabsparks said:


> Another point: You should definitely be aware of the local animal control laws. Some cities, town, et al will let you get away with leaving a dog outside as part of your routine. Others won't allow that. One thing's for sure: you don't want to come back and find that Willow has been "picked up". And since you're employed the Government (federal or state), you don't want to have a major problem there. Better to be safe than sorry. (I'm really not trying to make you any more "hyper" than you started this post. Really.)


Oh I'm sure it's not a problem here. I feel like half the houses we pass by on our walks have dogs in the yard. 



Sabis mom said:


> Re: Whining in the truck.
> Driving across Canada worked for Shadow, lol. Seriously though, Shadow used to drive me crazy if I had to put her in a vehicle. I drove from Calgary to Canmore with her and Bud in crates in the back of the truck and she howled the entire time. Loud enough that people were giving me funny looks. I put her in the back seat for a 3 hour drive to a hiking spot and she whined the whole way! I wanted to throttle her. Truly. But she was tired on the way home and passed out, much to my relief. After that she whined for the first twenty minutes or so and then settled. When we moved to Ontario she fussed the first day but after that she seemed to settle. So perhaps the key is simply to keep driving until they are so tired they stop.
> As for leaving her outside, dogs are dogs. Lots of dogs never see the inside of a house. As long as she is secured and has shelter and water she will get used to the routine. It seriously annoys me when people act like they are children. Since Bud could not be safely handled by anyone else when I travelled he was secured in a dog run and fed and watered with a no contact system. His shelter had a door that could be secured from outside the fence to allow cleaning and my vet was aware that in an emergency he would need to be tranquilized. It worked just fine for those times when I had no options. A dog hanging out in the yard while you work is not a tragedy.
> As a caution I would check for prior issues with people in your area who bother, harass, harm or steal unattended dogs though. Don't mean to be scary but it is an issue in some places.


She's already getting kinda better in the truck; the last time we had to go somewhere in my work truck, I found that tapping the crate when she started whining kinda shut her up, and I kept my arm back there and kept doing it and she got the message quickly. We'll see if that keeps working....


In the car though, when she's not crated, the only thing that shuts her up is me rolling the window down and letting her stick her head out. But even then, she'll take little "breaks" from that to pace the backseat and whine. I've tried the harness + clipping her into the seatbelt thing and that kinda works but it's a pain. We'll keep trying and yeah, maybe one long trip will help matters.


Thecowboysgirl said:


> The only other thing I don't know of anybody mentioned is acclimating her. An acclimated shepherd with a good straw bed and shelter ought to be ok but if she has been in a heated house 90% of time before now she needs to be gradually introduced to longer times in colder temps I would think. OR find a way to leave her a heated bed or shed so she can warm herself if she gets cold.


Yes, I've been thinking about this too. I'm starting to learn more toward the garage idea, putting a dog door in the outer garage door. The garage isn't heated per se; it has a wall heater (but I don't trust it out of fear of fire hazard), but it definitely stays warmer than outside. Otherwise I'm planning on insulating the crap out of her dog house (buying a dozen or so straw bales and putting them inside and outside as insulation). But again, if it's gonna be, oh, below 20 all day, I probably wouldn't keep her out there, at least not this first winter.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

rabsparks said:


> Another point: You should definitely be aware of the local animal control laws. Some cities, town, et al will let you get away with leaving a dog outside as part of your routine. Others won't allow that. One thing's for sure: you don't want to come back and find that Willow has been "picked up". And since you're employed the Government (federal or state), you don't want to have a major problem there. Better to be safe than sorry. (I'm really not trying to make you any more "hyper" than you started this post. Really.)


Good point, especially for other people who read this thread in the future. There are some places where the rules for dogs outdoors are becoming absurd! I do understand making sure that the law has teeth when it comes to requiring that the dogs are safe and have their need for food, water and shelter in place, but some new rules treat all dogs like glass teddy bears.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Dog trainer said:


> This is a HORRIBLE idea.
> Frostbite, cold water that will damage the intestines and immune system will suffer. GS tend to develop nerve damage related to arthritis meaning your dog will lose sense in hind legs sooner than needed
> 
> After thirty years of training, I will tell you all, there are a myriad of trainers out there who do not know anything about natural holistic care for a dog, meaning they don't realize how much some conventional training methods damage a dog, dogs psyche and health
> ...


Treat ur pet like a child, omg, leave them loose at 2 mo old omg, and ur a trainer, scary. The rest you stated is ridiculous


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