# Friend's parents breeding their GSD?



## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Okay, I know its not the most perfect situation - but my best friend's parents are going to breed their female GSD when she next comes in heat which should be around April. 
They are going to do it, no matter what - her step-father is quite stubborn and her mom is enthusiastic. That being said - their dog is lovely, wonderful personality, fits the breed standard, has a pedigree and certified hips. They paid thousands of dollars for her, and she would be a good addition to the gene pool. They are only going to breed her this 1 time and then she is going to be fixed. They take very good care of her and their other animals, have a nice farm property, and have solid financials.

Anyhow, they have asked for my help and involvement because I'm a sponge for information about dogs, breeds, breed standards and especially GSDs. My mother (i was young) bred her GSD just once, and I was very involved with her pregnancy, birthing, and everything after.

They have been looking a little for a good stud, we found 4 and we have eliminated them for various reasons (hare feet, poorly shaped head, poor bite, out-turned hocks.. etc.) 

I want them to get the best possible stud we could find, they are hoping to pay pick-of-the-litter and are looking for more Red coloring. 

*I was wondering if there are any resources - websites, etc. out there that I could use to find more stud candidates to choose from? *

I KNOW its not the best situation, but if its going to happen no matter what - I would like the puppies to be the best possible merit for the overall gene-pool. 

So you know I am not full of B.S. - here's a small pic of their female.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Check pedigreedatabase.com for studs... this website isn't for that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

K9stud or pedigreedatabase.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Well, I can't tell anything about the dog from the picture...so no opinion on that.

But, has this female been titled? Tested in anyway for sound temperament? Also, lets just get the "they paid thousands of dollars for her", out of the way, because that really means nothing. You can pay $10,000 and still not have a dog that is worthy of being bred. As for the hips being certifiied - this is a MINIMAL health testing I would require or what I would look for in a puppy I was purchasing. What about elbows, heart, thyroid, eyes? THese can all be OFA certified (eyes CERF) and can all have defects that are congenital.

I would not pick a male based on looks and color alone - if you are going to breed, be super picky and looks for the most amazing dog temperament wise and health wise FIRST.

I am not into showline shepherds at all, so hopefully someone who is will come on to talk about conformation and such. However, I think that there are many showline people (not all of course) that breed based solely on looks, they somehow forget that the look of the dog is not going to be enjoyable at all if you have a nerve bag with health issues.

So if you really want to help the breed, I would be looking for health, temperament, THEN looks.

Hope this helps!


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Well, yes - the 4 studs we took a serious look at did have good health and temperament. One was even mostly black even though her mother wants more red coloring. There were 3 other people who I spoke to that had an intact male, and would actually breed it - when 2 had some form of allergies and 1 had an esophagus problem! Of course I practically dropped the conversations right there! It was shocking!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm curious how they (and you) are evaluating potential studs? What is the knowledge of working ability and reading pedigrees? You mention ruling dogs out because of a bad head whenyou should be a lot more concerned about how pedigrees match up. At minimum.

I would tell them to make sure they have very good contracts that create a safety net for the dog throughout their entire lives.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

It's not really that shocking. The people with quality breed worthy males aren't going to breed to an untiled unproven female to produce a BYB litter. They don't want their males name, or their kennel name, attached to that kind of breeding program (I use that term loosly). So the quality of males they are going to have to select from aren't likely to be all that great. You're lucky they disclosed those issues at all. Most BYB's won't, so the only part I find shocking is that they told you (or them) about the issues.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

A lot of studs that I would offer up as a suggestion have quite a few requirements of a female to be bred to. Most would involve more health testing, and titles and show ratings. 

Good luck finding a stud worth breeding to, who won't mind breeding to your friends female.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

One litter then spayed... I never understood the point of that. Maybe a "miracle of birth" thing. :shrug:

Sounds like you're just excited for this breeding as the actual owner of the dog (your friend's parents?). Hope you guys know what you're doing in terms of temperament, pedigrees, etc as much as you seem to know about aesthetics.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the first step to getting the stud you want is to have a female THEY will want.

if they are going to breed her no matter what, then the best of the best are probably going to not be interested without titles, testing, work history, SOMETHING that will tell them what kind of a dog this female is.

So, check your studs for OFA, CERF, STDs (yes dogs can get them), what have they produced in the past?, etc. and not just for the stud dog himself, but his parents, any littermates, etc


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Well ... as someone who's in the lovely state of New York, I don't see anything this female contributes to the gene pool that the hundreds of GSDs I see listed on Craig's List or rescues' websites in this state cannot offer as well.

If you want to breed a good quality litter, you need to first prove to the owners of potential quality studs that you own a quality female. How do you do this? Well, you start by taking her to the vet for health checks - and I don't mean an annual checkup, but stuff like x-rays to be sent in to OFA for evaluation of hips and elbows.

When that's done, put some titles on her. Being that she's a nice showline female, there should be no reason why you cannot show her (or pay a handler to show her) in conformation and earn a title. Work her in some kind of venue and earn those titles, too.

Then look for a male with the same.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

or convince them of all the things that can go wrong......


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I might be able to convince them to have some more tests done, her mom was pretty gun-ho about having the hips certified. 

I might sound excited, but I did try and convince them to not breed her for about 6 months after they decided they would "some day". Her step-father is VERY stubborn. He grew up on the farm with dogs and dogs having puppies, we're lucky he even cares to keep within the breed. Their GSD pretty much is a family dog, a great nanny-dog with their young kids, and herds the chickens. The farm doesn't have cattle or horses anymore, just some goats, chickens, cats and dogs. Luckily, the dog is such a smash hit with anyone she meets, they have homes for 5 puppies, at least and are financially and spatially able to keep any that don't find homes. 

Now they decided its time, they are excited, my best friend is very excited.. it could be rubbing off on me a little, just thinking about the experience that we could hope for, best-case scenario. I am grounded and I know it could be a complete medical disaster, but I'm trying to hope for the best. I've known the female for years, so I am a little emotionally invested. 

I have said multiple times, its NOT the best situation. If they are going to do it anyways, I want to try and be helpful and especially don't want them to bring up sickly, deformed, low-quality, or emotionally troubled dogs... that potentially future owners may want to also BYB. The puppies would be for pets, or to work with other farm families they are friends with. They will be pet-quality and won't go to just anyone, or be made a big profit off of. I just want them to be the best they can be, no good reason to be lazy about it. 

Thanks for the websites, I hope to go over them with my friend. 

Again, I've been around the forum long enough to know its a bad situation, I'm just thankful their dog isn't a disaster.

For anyone insinuating, I see my best friend almost every day and have helped train / raise this dog. She was given most of the responsibility for the dog, but her parents still "own" it. We have gone on camping trips, swimming, and play-dates with her (parents) GSD and my mother's (rescued, spayed) GSD Raven. Raven and her dog are the best of friends and we've had plenty of great times.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Put the future "breeder" in touch with Selzer...she can give them a books worth of first hand knowledge on breeding and what it is all about....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mink, I am glad you are in the picture....they are going to breed the dog, you've made that clear....so hopefully someone who is a sponge for information about the breed can help them make the best decision possible. Good Luck!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I have no knowledge about breeding,

I am curious though about the why of this breeding. I mean other than that the step father is stubborn. Why do they want to breed once and then spay?

How old is the female? Again I don't personally know but have seen that age is a factor. And if they are set on April or so then there is no time to title her. That, from what others have said would limit possible studs. 

Sounds like a very sweet expensive GSD but won't add to the gene pool.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Ok people. No matter how passionate you are about the breed, check your classifieds. Unlimited amounts of people are breeding Shepherds. Stupidly. Now there is one here, asking for advice...yeah, it is not the best situation...but sounds WAY better than most. There is a caring person involved, and the dog is not crappy....you can put them down all you want, but that is a diservice to the breed as well. Accept reality. People that are not GSD experts WILL breed dogs. My 1st GSD came from there...she was great. Not every dog has to have mega titles, temperment testing, dragged around the country for shows...that just is not realistic for the majority of people. Health testing: yes...do it. But for Gods sake, accept reality. Go ahead, shoot me now....


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

dazedtrucker said:


> Ok people. No matter how passionate you are about the breed, check your classifieds. Unlimited amounts of people are breeding Shepherds. Stupidly. Now there is one here, asking for advice...yeah, it is not the best situation...but sounds WAY better than most. There is a caring person involved, and the dog is not crappy....you can put them down all you want, but that is a diservice to the breed as well. Accept reality. People that are not GSD experts WILL breed dogs. My 1st GSD came from there...she was great. *Not every dog has to have mega titles, temperment testing, dragged around the country for shows...that just is not realistic for the majority of people*. Health testing: yes...do it. But for Gods sake, accept reality. Go ahead, shoot me now....


In Germany they do. Why should the US be any different?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do respect that the OP is not endorsing the decision to breed and is not the breeder, but it is going to happen anyway and wants to make the best of it. Lets do all we can to help steer the right way....so that the pups can have the best chance to start out right.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

dazedtrucker said:


> Ok people. No matter how passionate you are about the breed, check your classifieds. Unlimited amounts of people are breeding Shepherds. Stupidly. Now there is one here, asking for advice...yeah, it is not the best situation...but sounds WAY better than most. There is a caring person involved, and the dog is not crappy....you can put them down all you want, but that is a diservice to the breed as well. Accept reality. People that are not GSD experts WILL breed dogs. My 1st GSD came from there...she was great. Not every dog has to have mega titles, temperment testing, dragged around the country for shows...that just is not realistic for the majority of people. Health testing: yes...do it. But for Gods sake, accept reality. Go ahead, shoot me now....


I have to agree here. We have at least 5 litters of German Shepherds pups for sale EVERY DAY in our local paper. Usually priced between $150 and $350.00 It seams like everyone with a German Shepherd around here feels that they "HAVE" to breed it because it is AKC registered. I actually have one person tell me. "We want to breed our dog soon" and then in the next breath ask "what is the best way to prevent Hip Dysplasia in our dog?" (palm slap). 

At least the OP is trying to learn a little about it first.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

dazedtrucker said:


> Ok people. No matter how passionate you are about the breed, check your classifieds. Unlimited amounts of people are breeding Shepherds. Stupidly. Now there is one here, asking for advice...yeah, it is not the best situation...but sounds WAY better than most. There is a caring person involved, and the dog is not crappy....you can put them down all you want, but that is a diservice to the breed as well. Accept reality. People that are not GSD experts WILL breed dogs. My 1st GSD came from there...she was great. Not every dog has to have mega titles, temperment testing, dragged around the country for shows...that just is not realistic for the majority of people. Health testing: yes...do it. But for Gods sake, accept reality. Go ahead, shoot me now....


Speaking for myself, I just don't see any reason for this type of breeding, because there are so many pups/ dogs already without homes. The vast majority of dogs that I have owned were from such breedings. I lost a female mixed GSD a couple of years ago that was a one in a million dog. 
Got her for fifty bucks from a BYB (whatever they are). The pup was already alive and I was the one who took her into my family.
I think people just wonder why so many just think it's cool or whatever to raise a litter of pups. Many don't even seem to have much of a reason other than they just want to. 

Also she was asking about stud dogs not really for advice.
No one knows genetically whether the dog is crappy or not. Crappy genetically has nothing to do with the individual dog being sweet and a great family dog.

I also don't think anyone on here is oblivious to all the dogs on Craigs list etc. but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to keep adding to the list of dogs for sale just because you can.

Bottom line is people will do what they want regardless.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> In Germany they do. Why should the US be any different?


Because you cannot control the entire population...and if you know its gonna happen, get your head outta your arse, and help the dogs. Being kind to folks that just don't understand is alot more educating and helpful than shooting them down. Being rude, and having a better than thou attitude is just going to run folks off. Teach people why, kindly, that is WAY more helpful than making folks feel like idiots. Of course, you got a great dog, lets breed him/her, that is NORMAL here (in the US). They are GOING to do it, so lend them knowledge, not hatred. Give them useful advice, they will come around!


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Speaking for myself, I just don't see any reason for this type of breeding, because there are so many pups/ dogs already without homes. The vast majority of dogs that I have owned were from such breedings. I lost a female mixed GSD a couple of years ago that was a one in a million dog.
> Got her for fifty bucks from a BYB (whatever they are). The pup was already alive and I was the one who took her into my family.
> I think people just wonder why so many just think it's cool or whatever to raise a litter of pups. Many don't even seem to have much of a reason other than they just want to.
> 
> ...


My definition of "crappy" here is that this is not a line of pet quality dogs, puppy mill, BYB, helluva temperment problems, health issues, and people keep breeding them because they "have papers". That is what is normally going on with all the litters in the newspapers......(and my rescue from a puppy mill, he was used for crankin' out pups...with nothing but "papers".) Not the dogs fault..most of our rescues came from these places.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Dazedtrucker:

I do agree that there sometimes seems to be a whole list of questions that are thrown at people over certain topics and often it really isn't helpful.
Perhaps I should say the way the questions are presented.
We have probably all seen a few new posters come on ask something, get worked over and disappear. Doesn't really accomplish much. I've been guilty myself. Since I'm not really an expert on anything, I'm trying to be more careful.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone for taking their time to participate, positive and negative sides included. ^_^ The main point of this was to find out somewhere (websites or otherwise) I could search through stud dogs so that there were maybe be a few decent studs to narrow down to the best possible one (willing to breed to their female), for at the very least, a more clear conscience on my part that I gave it my best help. I don't want my friends step-father to just talk to a random person he meets at the feed store and breed her with a GSD he thinks is okay but I think has the worst case of hare-feet and weak pastern I've ever seen. I don't want them to use their dog to pass on negative traits - be it physical, mental, behavioral, or health. Luckily, my friend's mother has been quick with insisting they double-check any stud applicants against what knowledge I have. 

I felt the whole thing needed to be put in context, since I know there would be plenty of questions anyways, and did not want to feel deceitful.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

This is one of those situations where none of the options are great. The OP is trying to do what can be done to make the best of it it sounds like. In this case, no reputable breeder will allow one of their titled and tested males to be used, so then the people in question have to look around for an intact male some other way. If they then ask the owner's of that male to do any testing, like hips, etc, then that owner now thinks their dog's value as a stud is more so will then want more money. So the owner's of the female then either drop the whole thing, or they do what many BYB folks do, they go buy their own male to use. Hopefully the mother of the family that is getting psyched about the whole process will want to have a male that has at least the same testing their female has had (not to mention brucellosis) and will see how difficult it is to find a male along those lines. Checking the pedigrees would be pretty unlikely I would think, but if the OP can get a copy of them and post them I'm sure people will have some input at least. 
The OP is doing what she can, which is all she can do.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

dazedtrucker said:


> Because you cannot control the entire population...and if you know its gonna happen, get your head outta your arse, and help the dogs. Being kind to folks that just don't understand is alot more educating and helpful than shooting them down. Being rude, and having a better than thou attitude is just going to run folks off. Teach people why, kindly, that is WAY more helpful than making folks feel like idiots. Of course, you got a great dog, lets breed him/her, that is NORMAL here (in the US). They are GOING to do it, so lend them knowledge, not hatred. Give them useful advice, they will come around!


The OP didn't even come on here looking for advice. She asked for a good place to find available studs and her question was answered in the first two responses. 

Really, it seems she already knows the basics and isn't just breeding any two dogs. Maybe I've been on this forum too long and have seen this subject brought up and answered so many times, but I'm not seeing anyone in this thread being overly rude. No ones giving the... "GO FOR IT!!!" attitude, but I don't think anyone should either.

As for the whole "this is going to happen regardless" and "everyone else does it so it's ok" attitude... that I just don't agree with and think maybe you need to get your head out of your "arse". That is why there are so many poorly bred dogs out there. That is why this breed is in the state that it's in. People don't want to put the work in when it comes to breeding. Maybe the majority of people can't do all that stuff, but this is exactly why the majority of people have no business breeding their pets.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Paul:

I actually think this is a pretty tame thread.

I'm still curious why they want to breed. Has nothing to do with the OP. 
I always just wonder what compels people to want to breed their dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> Paul:
> 
> I actually think this is a pretty tame thread.
> 
> ...


Especially when it's a "one litter then spayed" type situation. Why not just spay and forget the litter? What's being accomplished with that one litter? 

Not being specific to the dog being discussed here, but just in general.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mink can you get a hold of the pedigree of the female and post it.
What were the males she looked at and rejected , and what two remain for consideration . 
This gives an idea of what appeals to her and allows for comments about the match at least on paper . Understand that there might be sires and dams that are much too closely related , or the males she is considering might have a flimsy hip background .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Paul:
> 
> I actually think this is a pretty tame thread.
> 
> ...


When my in-laws did it it was because they wanted a "child" of their beloved dog. They kept two from the litter (brother and sister) and sold the rest for $300. If I were to breed my dog (and I will not) it would be for that reason-- I like him so much I'd like a close relative. Fortunately for me I can track down my dog's relatives at any number of quality breeders and buy them there.  Sando/Sven/R Ludwigseck isn't exactly rare.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> When my in-laws did it it was because they wanted a "child" of their beloved dog. They kept two from the litter (brother and sister) and sold the rest for $300. If I were to breed my dog (and I will not) it would be for that reason-- I like him so much I'd like a close relative.


See this kind of thinking I don't understand and seems kind of selfish to me. If dogs only had one puppy at a time, I guess that's ok, but what happens to all the other puppies in that litter? You keep one, but what happens to the other six, seven, or eight puppies? What happens if the new puppy doesn't have the temperament that it's sire/dam had? Do you try again and produce another 6 puppies hoping to duplicate that loved pet you're trying to replicate? What happens to those puppies? 



Emoore said:


> Fortunately for me I can track down my dog's relatives at any number of quality breeders and buy them there.  Sando/Sven/R Ludwigseck isn't exactly rare.


Now this I agree with. More people should think this way.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not quite sure why they want to breed her. I know her step-father and mother (the whole family) think she's the best dog ever, and want to pass it on and everything. Part of it might be giving the children one of the experiences he had himself? Animals having progeny is just second nature to him, growing up on a farm? Perhaps he thinks the dog would somehow feel accomplished or complete if she had a litter?

I've stated my case against it, all the things that could go wrong, and all the dogs in shelters and more. He's un-moved. 

At least they are adamant about only breeding her once, and were serious about waiting until she is over 2 years of age (she'll be 3), and have homes already lined up for some pups and the ability to care for them longer or forever if need be. 

I know another family where the mother breeds her chihuahuas pretty half-a$$3d, with the most minimal of vet care because she is trying to make easy money. >_< Of course they are a disaster and she sells them at 6 weeks too. Don't get me started..


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> When my in-laws did it it was because they wanted a "child" of their beloved dog. They kept two from the litter (brother and sister) and sold the rest for $300. If I were to breed my dog (and I will not) it would be for that reason-- I like him so much I'd like a close relative. Fortunately for me I can track down my dog's relatives at any number of quality breeders and buy them there.  Sando/Sven/R Ludwigseck isn't exactly rare.



I can honestly understand this- NOT that I would do it, not now anyway. But truthfully, if I could go back in time to 33 years or so ago and have bred Princess, the GSD I had as a child, I would. Of course that would mean she would have to have never been spayed and I would have had to have been older than 6 so and someone would have had to invent time travel so it is nothing but a pipe dream but I would love to have been able to have been able to have her progeny through the years. She was truly the best dog I have ever known, just amazing. 

So the whole thing is really a moot point but I do understand why people want to do it for that reason. Of course, I also realize that it is a bad idea and it shouldn't be done.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If they are *going* to breed her and don't have the where-with-all to properly evaluate temperament or pedigree, I would encourage them to at least evaluate the things that are more objective, like get hip and elbow certifications (and require the stud to have them, not just x-rays and a nod from any vet but actual certifications from OFA or a-stamps from Germany). Make sure both the male and female test negative for brucellosis before the breeding. I may be wrong but I believe they should be tested every time they are bred (so if the stud tested neg before he still needs to show he is neg again before this breeding). A friend of mine just walked away from her dream breeding b/c the stud owner refused to do the test.

Since they have NO experience and it will be a maiden bitch they should at the very least find an experienced stud with an experienced owner to help with the breeding or both dogs can get injured.

They should also learn how to identify problems during the birthing process (what will they do about a "stuck" puppy?) and problems that puppies can have (like mega-e, swimmers, etc).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mink said:


> I've stated my case against it, all the things that could go wrong, and all the dogs in shelters and more. He's un-moved.


I'm sorry, but if it was my "friends" doing this, I'd remove myself altogether. It doesn't sound like you have the expertise to view pedigrees and match up a good match for the bitch, so perhaps it's best to step out and let them learn the hard way. Helping them will only reinforce what's wrong and if it all goes right for them, what's to stop them from doing it again, if they are dead set on doing it "at least once"??
**Nice dog or not, she's only going to be half of the genetic material involved. This is why breeding should be left to the experts, not wanna-bes and people who feel they MUST have a puppy off this bitch (or boy) before they cut off the parts. They'd do better to adopt one or buy another from the breeder they got the female from, than creating an entire batch of dogs for the egotistical pleasure of owning one of their own dog's offspring 

I certainly could never be a party to anything of this nature.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, it's parents and not friends. And helping them to find a better stud dog and being available to answer questions etc, can only be a good thing in my opinion. 

About the pedigrees. There is different levels of knowledge required dependent on your goals. Having as much knowledge as possible is best, but one can still make reasonable decisions with less knowledge. Perhaps with the higher drives and energy and aggression of working lines, and breeding specifically for working dogs or high level competitors, knowing what every single dog in the pedigree is known for producing is a high priority. 

And with any close line breeding, one would want to know every last thing about the dogs that are linebred on, what lines they mix well with, and what lines are better to stay away from.

But, a novice can look at the pedigree and check for hip scores, and ensure that they are not repeating any dogs, within four generations, and breed like to like, and evaluate the individual dogs and compare them against their bitch, avoiding fault particularly disqualifying faults, and make a decent decision. 

I think the breed one time and then quit might just be that the owners want to experience having puppies, gasp! They will keep one and sell or give away the rest of them. If the OP can suggest they make a contract and include terminology about returning the puppy if they can no longer provide for it, that would help to ensure they do not land in a shelter down the road. 

If these people breed their bitch and make a litter of pet dogs, the full shelters will not overflow, the sky will not fall, the GSD breed will not fall from the very shaky pedestal that it is currently on for a variety of reasons, and Father Max will not roll over in his grave. 

One of the aspects of owning a dog is that we can breed that dog and make more dogs if we choose to do so. If they were planning on breeding their dog to a Rottweiler or Doberman or Poodle or a Pit Bull, than I can see losing sleep over it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Wow, it's parents and not friends. And helping them to find a better stud dog and being available to answer questions etc, can only be a good thing in my opinion.


It's_ friend's_ parents. Not her own. And should the litter be gawd-awful temperaments, or have other health issues, at least it won't be the OPs fault. To help them is condoning it, IMO.




> If they were planning on breeding their dog to a Rottweiler or Doberman or Poodle or a Pit Bull, than I can see losing sleep over it.


Any novice breeding without benefit of matching up the best parents to further the breed and improve it, is just making a nice pet dog, nothing special. It doesn't take a purebred GSD to do that, so what's the difference? In fact Shep-a-doodles might be interesting and it's already being done all over the country. Or at least, I've seen a litter of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> It's_ friend's_ parents. Not her own. And should the litter be gawd-awful temperaments, or have other health issues, at least it won't be the OPs fault. To help them is condoning it, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Any novice breeding without benefit of matching up the best parents to further the breed and improve it, is just making a nice pet dog, nothing special. It doesn't take a purebred GSD to do that, so what's the difference? In fact Shep-a-doodles might be interesting and it's already being done all over the country. Or at least, I've seen a litter of them.


Maybe because, like it or not, mutts do make up 75% of shelter's population. Mixing two breeds that have higher than average potential to make them react poorly or bite, is not necessarily a good thing. And GSDs with health screening and registrations can generally be homed to decent people, so that if one comes back, they can probably manage that one, and the liklihood of these dogs landing in a shelter is much less. 

If you use a good stud dog, as opposed to whatever dog is available and willing, the chances are much better at getting a litter with decent temperaments, which will make it less likely for the dogs to land in shelters or to add to dog-bite-statistics. 

Once someone provides their opinion on a subject, they can then choose to help or not to help. It does not make them a partner in crime. I think it is more like damage control, improving the odds. But once someone chooses one way or the other, there is no point in that pounding their position. Though refusing to be any part of the whole thing, might make an impression in the people doing it. But if they are going to do it either way, I think it is better to help them avoid the worst pitfalls.

Lastly, a mixed breed puppy is a total questionmark, while a purebred puppy at least has a blue print. Some will be larger, and maybe some smaller, some will not have certain characteristics at the level that is normal for the breed, but people have a good idea what they are going to get, and even poorly bred GSDs fit near-enough. Mixes can make awesome pets, and we have had mixes. But if you want something more specific, nothing wrong with that either.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know...perhaps if the OP doesn't assist, they won't be able to find a "good match" and let it drop. To assist is condoning, IMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> I don't know...perhaps if the OP doesn't assist, they won't be able to find a "good match" and let it drop. To assist is condoning, IMO.


So if you offer to drive the kids home, because the parents are drunk and getting drunker, is that condoning the parents drinking? Or is it trying to protect the kids and get them home safely? I guess I don't feel so bad about assisting. 

If people want a litter of puppies, and they cannot find a "good match" they will lower their expectations in a mate, and probably agree recklessly to a poor choice when they are under the gun.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So...you're saying my opinion is invalid? I can't give another perspective here?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*ENOUGH!! *You two need to walk away from this fight. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think if she removes herself from the situation, step dad will go down the street and breed to Joe smoe's male dog ...while I get the feeling OP is NOT in favor of this, atleast SHE is trying to steer them in a better direction.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> I do respect that the OP is not endorsing the decision to breed and is not the breeder, but it is going to happen anyway and wants to make the best of it. Lets do all we can to help steer the right way....so that the pups can have the best chance to start out right.


I don't think they'll find a "quality" male, because anyone doing breeding the right way won't be willing to breed to an unproven female...with help from the OP or not


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

msvette2u said:


> I don't think they'll find a "quality" male, because anyone doing breeding the right way won't be willing to breed to an unproven female...with help from the OP or not


You would be surprised. There are stud dog owners that will breed to an unproven female, even a not great quality female. The reason? They feel that since the bitch will be bred anyhow they might as well let them breed to a better quality dog in hopes of at least improving on the female. The other reason........... $$$$$$$$.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lisa, have seen this happen more than one would think for just the reason she said.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

carmspack said:


> Mink can you get a hold of the pedigree of the female and post it.
> What were the males she looked at and rejected , and what two remain for consideration .
> This gives an idea of what appeals to her and allows for comments about the match at least on paper . Understand that there might be sires and dams that are much too closely related , or the males she is considering might have a flimsy hip background .
> 
> ...


I would do this. 

Also check out what Liesje said too. 

This whole thing is very unfortunate because at least one person who gets one of her puppies is probably going to think the same thing. And so on, and so on. I always hope that whoever they find to stud shoots blanks.

Brucellosis:
Brucellosis (Brucella canis) & Abortions in Dogs
"Remember, statistically one out of ten dogs may be carriers and those are very disturbing odds."

01 Brucellosis in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf

"Medical advancements in controlling this disease have been few and far between. It is a very difficult disorder to treat and in most cases, treatment is unsuccessful. A prevalent attitude is that "if my dogs get it, then I will treat it." This is a serious mistake because you probably will not cure it and, if you do, the individual will probably be sterile or a poor breeding specimen."
SHOW DOG MAGAZINE=Brucellosis in dogs

Another option - perhaps they could volunteer with a shelter that needs a whelping foster and do that a couple of times before they decide to breed.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, if you look through some classifieds you can usually find a stud from good bloodlines, hips done-- probably not elbows-- and no titles whose owners will breed him to any dog whose owners can come up with a couple hundred bucks.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> You would be surprised. There are stud dog owners that will breed to an unproven female, even a not great quality female. The reason? They feel that since the bitch will be bred anyhow they might as well let them breed to a better quality dog in hopes of at least improving on the female. The other reason........... $$$$$$$$.


I have a hard time believing any breeder with a decent reputation would do that.
If it's not a breeder, just someone with an intact pure bred male, then to me we are right back where the thread started.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Andy, believe it, I can think of two right off the top of my head


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People will breed to an unproven bitch. Bitches cannot wait forever before they start having puppies. Can you title first? Sure. But sometimes people like to get a litter first and then go the rest of the way in titles, just to see that she is able to produce and what she produces. In any case, a stud owner might breed to any decent bitch. Not everyone is that set on titles.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have a hard time believing any breeder with a decent reputation would do that.
> If it's not a breeder, just someone with an intact pure bred male, then to me we are right back where the thread started.


Breeders are probably much more likely to stud one of their male dogs to some random female pet dog than to have some random male pet stud bred to one of their breeding females... if that makes sense.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Andy, believe it, I can think of two right off the top of my head


Guess I'm not sure why they have a decent reputation then.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Most stud dog owners are not breeders themselves.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

As my biology teacher explained it to us: "Sperm is cheap. Eggs are expensive."


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have a hard time believing any breeder with a decent reputation would do that.
> If it's not a breeder, just someone with an intact pure bred male, then to me we are right back where the thread started.


These were/are well regarded breeders.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This thread is just proof of what I already know. There's hundreds (or even thousands) of crap-quality GSDs (and other breeds) and this is exactly why 
Oh, and that includes health (look at how allergic dogs are these days) as well as temperaments.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

msvette2u said:


> This thread is just proof of what I already know. There's hundreds (or even thousands) of crap-quality GSDs (and other breeds) and this is exactly why
> Oh, and that includes health (look at how allergic dogs are these days) as well as temperaments.


Yeah and that's probably putting it lightly.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> This thread is just proof of what I already know. There's hundreds (or even thousands) of crap-quality GSDs (and other breeds) and this is exactly why
> Oh, and that includes health (look at how allergic dogs are these days) as well as temperaments.


Hey! They're wonderful, healthy, well-mannered, intelligent, loyal GSDs and they can be found at a rescue near you.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

lhczth said:


> These were/are well regarded breeders.


Well IMO thats just dumb. If "respected" breeders are doing that then I guess throwing 2 pure bred dogs together ought to work out just fine. If respected breeders aren't minding the store who is?

I understand shipping sperm is commonplace but the breeding from that process should be well thought out.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Even though I don't agree with this particular breeding, I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge the awesomeness of Straussdog.

$250 dog I found from an ad in my newspaper.

Thus far, he is the most stable dog I've had. Hands down. Biggest problem? He does have some allergies. Could have paid $2500 for him and he could have had allergies. No real test for that.

OFA Good, Elbows Normal. Huh...go fig


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As I said, the stud dogs owners felt that since these people are going to breed anyhow (no matter how much they are told not to), that it is better to have them breed to a good dog of sound temperament than to the "AKC registered dog down the road". 

While I can see their point, I don't agree with them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So at least they are trying to find a compatible male with a person that has a clue. Really folks, what's the difference in this and the many many dogs that come from parents that have titles and certs and are incompatible????? See it all the time! Actually see more of it than the BYB. People who think that because they have this and that on the dog the result is responsible. Whether the pups are inferior because of the way they did or because the breeder has titles and certs and little knowledge.....the result is still inferior. Look at all the issues that people are writing about in the training part of the forum.....betcha a majority of these dogs are from quality dogs individually, but should never have been bred. Ignorance is the biggest hinderance to good breeding, and knowledge and UNDERSTANDING of genetics is the best asset. At least they are trying to get a compatible match. At the end of the day the quality of the pups determines if this is a good decision.....not my view or anyone's else.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Okay, sorry - new question! What about Artificial Insemination? Is it pretty successful? Do stud owners usually ship sperm? It would be a great help if we could widen the search to farther places then - and up the odds of finding a good stud to agree to a breeding.

Also, I know their neighbor has this done to his dairy cows - so her step-father might go for it if its a common thing in farming. I don't know how his parents raised their cattle, how modern they were or anything though. 

We should be having another GSD play-date today or tomorrow, and I want to try and get more pics and possibly a stacking pic of their dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Unproven and poor quality are not the same thing-


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mink said:


> Okay, sorry - new question! What about Artificial Insemination? Is it pretty successful? Do stud owners usually ship sperm? It would be a great help if we could widen the search to farther places then - and up the odds of finding a good stud to agree to a breeding.
> 
> Also, I know their neighbor has this done to his dairy cows - so her step-father might go for it if its a common thing in farming. I don't know how his parents raised their cattle, how modern they were or anything though.


I've asked this question before on here, coming from a ranching family I was curious. I was told that artificial insemination does not have nearly the success rate in dogs that it has in cattle. I forgot the reason.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Ah, okay. Drat. 

I know someone along the line asked for pics of studs I turned down, I don't have permission to post pics, and don't want to make a spectacle of any particular dog. I only have pics from 1 "applicant" and the feet are what made me cringe. The rest of the dog is lovely - gorgeous deep colors, nice bone structure, stance, beautiful face, and great temperament - a real big teddy bear - despite being intact. Supposedly his sire is a big name, but wasn't given the exact name. So, since the feet kinda scare me away, I can crop the pics down to the feet - not the best pics - you can maybe tell me what you think? 










It might be a personal thing, but hare feet make me uneasy. Pastern is questionable?


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

I'm not an expert at all, but from the little that i know, these don't even look like GSD feet. Ewww


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Yeah, those are some bad feet, looks like a muppet.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Ignorance is the biggest hinderance to good breeding, and knowledge and UNDERSTANDING of genetics is the best asset. At least they are trying to get a compatible match. At the end of the day the quality of the pups determines if this is a good decision.....not my view or anyone's else.


That's the point though. As far as anyone knows neither the OP or the family with the dog are genetic whizzes or they wouldn't need to ask these questions. So unless there is a genetic wizzard out there somewhere who is helping I don't see much difference who they breed the dog to. You could breed her to the mixed lab down the street and the outcrossing might produce great family pets. 
About 50% of the dogs I owned were mutts of one kind or another and were all good family dogs except one.
Honestly though it's just one more litter thats going to happen regardless of all these opinions.
Maybe you could be their genetic wizzard Cliff.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Mink said:


> Ah, okay. Drat.
> 
> I know someone along the line asked for pics of studs I turned down, I don't have permission to post pics, and don't want to make a spectacle of any particular dog. I only have pics from 1 "applicant" and the feet are what made me cringe. The rest of the dog is lovely - gorgeous deep colors, nice bone structure, stance, beautiful face, and great temperament - a real big teddy bear - despite being intact. Supposedly his sire is a big name, but wasn't given the exact name. So, since the feet kinda scare me away, I can crop the pics down to the feet - not the best pics - you can maybe tell me what you think?
> 
> ...


Okay those feet look funny, but what exactly is wrong with them medically? Is the term "hare feet"? Just got my curiosity sparked.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Andy, but in the big scheme of things THEY are going to breed the dog, so looking for a compatible match is better than not.
The breed in America went from the 1920's to the 60's in America with practically everyone being a BYB(the breeders then incorporated none of the reputable criteria that is essential to approved standards of today), and the breed not only didn't disintergrate, but many would venture the overall quality of the breed was better. No titles, no hip X-rays, owners didn't have to fill out questionaires, breeders didn't have lifelong expectations for being responsible for the dog, and many many other things lacking. So I'm sure without all these safeguards the breed dried up and was destroyed.....WRONG!!! People tended to breed the best dogs to the best available....the breed was a strong working type dog, perspective owners expected this and wanted this. Breeders didn't try to change the type and characters of the breed, and tried to keep these things strong. People wern't breeding this dog for PETS(that started in the sixties with the show craze and the start of couch people wanting this breed for its looks as opposed to its actions). You didn't see shy, tail tucking, worried eye looking GS slinking behind their masters. Some were more sharp than others but they were strong dogs in general. Health was much better and things like EPI, MEGA, bloat, elbows and hips, were not prevalent and certaily didn't interfere with the dogs ability to represent itself in general terms. This was the general condition of the breed in that 40 year period, TODAY.....with all the built in certs and titles(especially conformation titles)we have breeders that are reputable that have never owned a true working dog and are trying their best(whether they realize what they are doing or not)to further lessen the physical, mental, and health assets of this breed.....but they sure are purdy and look nice on the couch. Agh!!!! 
So I really don't see where this catastrophy is as bad as the one I have seen for past 40 years, and truthfully....I think its worse!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation Cliff. 
I'm slow but think I'm beginning to understand what you and Lisa and others are saying.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

The thing that concerns me about the feet is the apparent length of the nails. My trainer would have some harsh words about that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> the breed was a strong working type dog, perspective owners expected this and wanted this. Breeders didn't try to change the type and characters of the breed, and tried to keep these things strong. *People wern't breeding this dog for PETS*


Wouldn't you say that's the biggest difference between the 1920s-1960s BYBs and today? And why we have to have all of these artificial tests, titles and certificates that we didn't need 75 years ago? Because about 0.5% of the breed are actual working (not sport) dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Emoore....Here's a hint.....People then bred dogs that CAN do Schutzhund, they didn't breed dogs TO do Schutzhund. Think on that and where it leads, what it produces, where it ends, what it eliminates, and all the other ramifications.....and you can apply same to the show world and then you begin to see how the breed changed and the breeding practices of today are actually regressive to the breed as an utility dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> @Emoore....Here's a hint.....People then bred dogs that CAN do Schutzhund, they didn't breed dogs TO do Schutzhund. Think on that and where it leads, what it produces, where it ends, what it eliminates, and all the other ramifications.....and you can apply same to the show world and then you begin to see how the breed changed and the breeding practices of today are actually regressive to the breed as an utility dog.


Oh I agree with you that breeding dogs strictly for Schutzhund or the show ring isn't optimal, but I also don't think it's optimal to breed pets that rarely leave their yard and are only exposed to family. In a world with very few true working dogs, maintaining the utility of the breed is a conundrum.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hi Cliff nice to see you around again. Especially like your comments directly above this . 

OP , please did you ever post the pedigree of the female ?

the dog with the feet , not good. Long open toes , no pad , pasterns weak - good feet necessary for getting around .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Oh I agree with you that breeding dogs strictly for Schutzhund or the show ring isn't optimal, but I also don't think it's optimal to breed pets that rarely leave their yard and are only exposed to family. In a world with very few true working dogs, maintaining the utility of the breed is a conundrum.


Great thought emoore. Although couldn't the same be said for most working dogs. Or what % of Labs do you think actually hunt and retrieve. Most are pets.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've never owned a lab so I'm not sure if they are the most fitting examples but I do believe that certain breeds are more conducive to being your ordinary household pet than a GSD most of the time. My sister wants a GSD for a pet but I don't want her to get one, it just doesn't "fit" her lifestyle or how she trains and handles dogs. I have known some people who have a GSD and describe all these "bad" things that to me are just a GSD being a GSD. If that's not what someone wants then they shouldn't get one, pet or otherwise. On the other hand, some of the best GSDs I've ever met were ones that were "just" family pets, but they had owners that understood the breed for what it is and not some mold that they want a GSD lookalike to fit into. So I'm not trying to say never own a GSD as a pet or breed one to be a pet but a GSD should be a GSD.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Well Emoore, the breeding practices I outlined above from 1920's to 1960's ...do you consider them BYB practices that would lead to "Pets". 
Because the reality is that the dogs from WW2, Korea and Viet Nam were primarily bred this way....IN America. The police dogs during this period from all over the country were not Czech or imported from Germany, but bred in the good ole USA. Today all of these dogs are coming from imports and the long time USA breeders....well you get my drift. Simplified, dogs you would consider pets worked in those days and were blue collar dogs, today you have a bunch of white collar breeders with white collar breeding standards, producing predominantly "PETS", and they have the nerve to look down on functional dogs. You think we don't have this thing "Twisted"?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

A point that no one else has mentioned, but worried me when I read your original post is:

What if they want you to assume some responsibility if the puppies don't go there way, of if there are complications in the birthing/mating process?

If I were in your position, I would make sure to bring some recommendations to them, but make sure they make the final decision. Be involved and provide knowledge, but make sure you make it known that it is all their choice and their responsibility.

I've seen friendships turn sour over smaller things than beloved family dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lies:

So you don't like my Lab example. How about a Border Collie?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

As far as AI, it is not like AI'ing cows. Cows can deal with all kinds of issues from AI breeding, dogs can't. If you try to do it yourself, you can puncture the vaginal wall and then you have major issues. 
Breeding AI with fresh sperm can give an almost 100% rate,(I did AI breedings with my Shelties and had 100% success) but breeding with frozen sperm almost has to be done at the vets because they usually deposit the sperm in the uterous, so therefore have to have the dog under. Using defrosted sperm with a vaginal placement doesn't make for the best breeding scenerio. If you have never done an AI, then don't do it, you will have to pay for a vet to do the procedure.
I guess folks have the right to breed their dogs and nothing anyone can say will stop them if they are bound and determined to do it. 
However, just because your friends girl is beautiful, friendly, goes camping, hiking, loves everyone and has a good temperament doesn't mean she should be bred. My girl loves everyone, goes everywhere with me, is very nice looking has a decent pedigree, good health tests, BUT I am not going to breed her just because I can, I do not want to bring more puppies into the world.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Lies:
> 
> So you don't like my Lab example. How about a Border Collie?


Sorry what I meant was I'm not really familiar with the lab temperament. Not Border Collies either for that matter. There are some dog breeds that were intended from the beginning to serve primarily as pets/companions, I just don't see the GSD as one of those breeds. That is why I don't always see the value in comparing GSDs as pets vs. another breed as pets. As far as labs go the few I know that are hunting/working dogs are not really treated as pets and would make poor pets but I know labs are popular as pets so maybe there are things about the breed temperament overall that make them more likely to be a better pet than a GSD.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I think GSD's are the second or third most popular dogs, My guess is most are pets. 

I wonder how many actually work. If you don't count sport as work.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

marshies said:


> A point that no one else has mentioned, but worried me when I read your original post is:
> 
> What if they want you to assume some responsibility if the puppies don't go there way, of if there are complications in the birthing/mating process?
> 
> ...


I brought it up but it got lost in the flame storm that followed 



> I guess folks have the right to breed their dogs and nothing anyone can say will stop them if they are bound and determined to do it.
> *However, just because your friends girl is beautiful, friendly, goes camping, hiking, loves everyone and has a good temperament doesn't mean she should be bred. *My girl loves everyone, goes everywhere with me, is very nice looking has a decent pedigree, good health tests, BUT I am not going to breed her just because I can, I do not want to bring more puppies into the world.


wyoming, you've got an excellent point. Quite a few actually. I enjoy your wisdom in your posts. 

I remember a thread recently where a chance breeding produced dogs known for aggression. I doubt the OPs friends' parents will be taking all the puppies back should things go south. They probably won't alter the puppies prior to placement and maybe not even put them on a contract to s/n. 
It's sad. But folks like this are the reason rescues (and pounds/shelters) exist.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> Well Emoore, the breeding practices I outlined above from 1920's to 1960's ...do you consider them BYB practices that would lead to "Pets".
> Because the reality is that the dogs from WW2, Korea and Viet Nam were primarily bred this way....IN America. The police dogs during this period from all over the country were not Czech or imported from Germany, but bred in the good ole USA. Today all of these dogs are coming from imports and the long time USA breeders....well you get my drift. Simplified, dogs you would consider pets worked in those days and were blue collar dogs


That's the difference. In those days-- especially prior to the 50's-- "pets" did work. I've grown up listening to my parents talk about the 20's, 30's and 40's. . . nobody didn't work. Little kids worked, physically able old folks worked, and animals worked. Today, dogs that are pets don't do a solitary thing, so we invent games and sports for them. Kinda like kids if you think about it. 

No, I don't consider being a pet, lying on the porch, not doing a solitary thing to be appropriate criteria for breeding, any more than I consider sitting on the couch playing Playstation to be appropriate preparation for adult life. So we have dog sports as proxy for work, just like we have soccer and hockey and football practice as a proxy for contributing to the household. But they're both a sorry excuse for what they're supposed to replace.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> cliffson1 said:
> 
> 
> > Well Emoore, the breeding practices I outlined above from 1920's to 1960's ...do you consider them BYB practices that would lead to "Pets".
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm onboard with everyone else, this should not happen, only responsible breeders should breed....think its possible to hold on to the right to breed even if it isn't condoned by the masses. I would like to hold on to that. I have seen the light.:groovy:.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well I'm not sure what you took from it Cliff but I think GSD's should be bred for what they were meant to be as stated by you.
The fact is though that the market is primarily for pets. So anyone and their cousin thinks it's ok to throw a couple of dogs together and sell pets.
It's not against the law so what I think doesn't matter.
So if the OP and her friends family go ahead I wish them the best of luck with their choice.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

They already agree on GSD-experienced (good experienced) homes only, and a clause in the contract that says all the pups must go back to them if anything goes wrong. (Once again, they have a good-sized ex-cattle farm and are financially secure) They are even thinking about micro-chipping the pups before they go to their new homes and maybe making the contract say they have to still be on the microchip as secondary contact or something, IF the new owners change it at all. 

Also the subject that was brought up at her house - possibly refunding the new owner some of the price if they return with proof of spay/neuter within like 6 months or something.

And when I was talking about AI, I did mean by the Vet. The neighbor even has a vet come to his farm and meet up with the guy delivering the sperm, and the vet does the deed. I don't think he does it all too often. I know he sells any calves that are bulls. Oh, and he could pay extra money to have them make it female-only sperm?? I've spent a lot of time milling about with my friend, lol. The neighbor is pretty friendly. 

Anyhow, their dog won't be in heat again until around April. I'm sure things will get more planned-out as time goes. There's still a few months before I think everything will be covered and a plan drawn out. They still need a stud, for starters.. I mean her step-father might use odd-toes if I don't help them find better.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm curious, are you getting a puppy for all your trouble?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

A "farm" vet that "does the deed" with cows IS NOT the same as being able to do dogs. 
One of the vets I work with does cattle and horse AI's, but hates to do dog AI's. Cows and horses are done standing in stocks, standing up. 
If they are going to do shipped semen, then take the female to a repo specialist. She will need to have blood draws almost daily once she is in heat to find out when she is ovulating to have the semen shipping and then inserted.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I may be mistaken, but I don't think there's such thing as "female only" sperm???  Unless you are talking real money for some serious genetic manipulation...


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

sashadog said:


> I may be mistaken, but I don't think there's such thing as "female only" sperm???  Unless you are talking real money for some serious genetic manipulation...


Eggs are all X chromosomes, which leaves the gender up to the sperm, which is either X or Y. I imagine some expensive testing would have to be done in order to get all X chromosome sperm.... Not to mention, they would either have to do a ton or basically make test tube puppies, matching the X sperm to the egg in a petri dish....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSDs are the third most _registered_, not necessarily the third most popular. Just wanted to make that distinction. I think popularity fluctuates a lot locally. Around here, GSDs of any line are rare to see. Other working breeds like Dobes and Rotts are more popular. I see countless labs, Goldens, pits, and Shelties, but the most common dogs I see are mixes.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I'm onboard with everyone else, this should not happen, only responsible breeders should breed....think its possible to hold on to the right to breed even if it isn't condoned by the masses. I would like to hold on to that. I have seen the light.:groovy:.


I have a hard time puzzling out your position on the breeding issue. I know you think everybody should have the right to breed, and I agree with you. This is by-god-America after all and we fought a revolution so we'd have the right to breed our dogs without oversight from the SV. But for somebody who bemoans the state of the breed and the way things have gone in the last 50 years and the lack of nerve and the the structural unsoundnes. . . surely you don't think everyone should breed?


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I wasn't saying they would use the neighbor's cow vet, I know there's a difference between small and large animals practices. They do have a wonderful vet that they would bring these questions to and I assume she would point them in whichever direction. If the odds are so low, I don't think they should go with In-vitro .. it was just a random -oh wait- idea that struck me. I didn't even bring the idea up to them since its a no-brainer bad idea. 

A puppy for myself.. I don't know. I would be very critical of the pups and don't know if I'm ready, I raised Ruger when I was a teenager and had him for 12 years. He was always there, and I'm still upset. The holidays will be especially bad. I'm still paying off some of Ruger's bills, the big one should be done in march. If a particular pup takes a shine to me, and won't terrorize my Bichon.. I could see it working out - but I don't think the chances are high of that. 

I'm not sure about the sperm-sexing thing, its something the neighbor kinda mentioned in passing. But - I did find a couple articles explaining the process. And I was talking only about cattle, not dogs. I tend to ramble. The 1st one is from 2002, saying the technology would be available possibly in the next year (2003).

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1253&context=animalscinbcr

Sperm sorting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Maybe my positions on breeding Don't make any sense and I am just an incredibly lucky guy in what I do in the breed.:hammer:


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