# Question, because I just don't understand...



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If there is a better place for this question, someone could move it.

Ok, I really, truly, don't understand this mindset.

Why is it that some owners will take a perfectly healthy young dog, 18 months old, that is not having behavioral issues, does well with the other household dogs, and is great with the part-time kid, and neuter him, just because, she "doesn't intend to breed or show him, and wants him neutered."

This person seems to manage her critters just fine. Her other critters are altered, so it is not a boy-boy thing or the inconvenience of having both male and female dogs intact. 

I guess I figure, if it isn't broke, why fix it? I can understand bitches, not everyone wants to go through 3+ weeks of bleeding, twice a year. I get that. And if some rangy, mangy border collie mix climbs your fence when you aren't right out there with your bitch, you might have mongrel pups to deal with. But why fix a dog that isn't broken? Why do people "just want him neutered." 

Are preople really offended by boy-parts? 

Ok, here is my issue with this: she has two young males, not just one. One was neutered younger, about 10 months old. So, now that they are both around a year and a half, isn't it possible that if you take the testosterone away from the second male, it may make the two closer in rank and more likely to spar if they get a bug up their behind? If you have three young males (1 boxer), and an older spayed bitch, and you have balance in your pack where the young boy (who is only there some week-ends), about 7, can command them all to sit and wait until he passes out the treats, do you really want to mess with that balance? 

Probably, being young and full of energy, and good about training/working with the dogs, all will be ok. But I don't understand it, unless the intact male was being a jerk/bully. 

BTW, when she got the second young dog, she did not have the older bitch -- that one was hers, but with her x and she didn't know she would ever have her back, but she has had her back for at least six months, maybe longer. And the boxer is her brothers, but has been there now for several weeks, so maybe it is a lot of dogs. But she handles them fine.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

she needs to read about neutering a dog before they have completely developed.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Pet owners are constantly being bombarded with the "be a responsible owner - spay and neuter your pets" message. There are too many ignorant/stupid dog owners who either tie their dogs out to a tree or let them run loose, and then end up sitting in the Walmart parking lot with a boxful of mongrel unwanted pups to get rid of. If your friend is a responsible owner and manages her pack well, and ensures that her males cannot wander, she probably doesn't HAVE to neuter.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What maxtmill said^^^ And I agree that if you have a good balance in the pack leave well enough alone!


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

maxtmill said:


> Pet owners are constantly being bombarded with the "be a responsible owner - spay and neuter your pets" message. There are too many ignorant/stupid dog owners who either tie their dogs out to a tree or let them run loose, and then end up sitting in the Walmart parking lot with a boxful of mongrel unwanted pups to get rid of. If your friend is a responsible owner and manages her pack well, and ensures that her males cannot wander, she probably doesn't HAVE to neuter.


This. Breeders can talk until they are blue in the face, show buyers the studies that back up their policies and make buyers initial the line where it says they agree not to neuter until 2 years or their warranty is void. But buyers will still listen to vets and rescues that push the "You have to neuter to be responsible" agenda, such as what happened to a Great Dane breeder a friend co-breeds with just recently. Neutered at 14 WEEKS!!!!! Violated the contract and voided the warranty less than a month and a half after they got the puppy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't do it. Makes them harder to manage weight wise by a good bit. Riker was neutered before I ever got a hold of him and I feed him like he was a bird and he gets out plenty tries to act like a malinois and keep up with the other two and still manages to be a tubby guy. The intact mals are muscular and trim and they eat a lot more.


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## MagicHorse (Feb 3, 2016)

My dog was intact when I got him & we found out the county requires them to be neutered in order to license them. That was why we had him neutered. He was a year and a half old. He was well behaved both before & after.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All of mine are fixed because I don't believe there is any reason to keep them intact. I will never keep a dog intact. There are health risks either way. I just choose to deal with the risks involved with a fixed dog versus an intact dog. This comes from working at a vet mostly and what I seen coming in on a regular basis. Across the board there were always more serious issues with intact dogs whether it was pyo or prostrate,etc. Most owners don't catch either of those in time. People on here are different and are a much smaller % of the general pet population in general(care, training, vaccinations, etc). I've done the early neutering, slightly later and the last one was 17 months or so. I did have him xrayed to make sure growth plates were closed and checked the hips. I would have waited until plates were closed if they weren't already. My dogs are all lean and muscular, quite active. I had an issue with my oldest golden--he gained a lot of weight and I realized one day he was fat. I put him on a diet and got him down to where I wanted him to be several years ago and he still weighs the same. Midnite was a big boy-weighed just over 100 pounds at one point--he now stays betwern 82-85 and that is ideal for him. Weight management isn't an issue. I definitely like Apollos personality since he was fixed. He is still very focused on me, but more easy going and not as edgy. 

Maybe your friend wonders why you choose to keep yours intact? It's a personal choice and what works for one doesn't work for all.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> Pet owners are constantly being bombarded with the "be a responsible owner - spay and neuter your pets" message. There are too many ignorant/stupid dog owners who either tie their dogs out to a tree or let them run loose, and then end up sitting in the Walmart parking lot with a boxful of mongrel unwanted pups to get rid of. If your friend is a responsible owner and manages her pack well, and ensures that her males cannot wander, she probably doesn't HAVE to neuter.


 Put me in this camp also! I thought it was the "responsible thing to do." Rocky (OS Wl GSD) was a done deal when I got him at seven months ( as a rescue) Gunther (Am Band Dawg) was a year old (I had no idea, they were going to cut his nuts off???) 

And my Boxer Struddell was four before I got her fixed (Boxer's and Ace, which I told them not to use ... no problem.) The only reason it was four years was because as I said I did not want to put her under anesthesia. 

But I thought it was the "responsible" thing to do?? I did not realize I had already been doing the responsible thing for four years?

So yeah I fell for it to.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

I don't get it either, honestly.

I'm only getting Butters fixed for two reasons: one, she is a female, making it more challenging to prevent oops litters. (something I do not feel comfortable doing for the rest of her life) and two, because we don't know her history, so health wise, getting her fixed is most likely going to end up being safer than leaving her unaltered.

Of course, I'm strongly opposed to early fixing and won't be getting her's done until she's nearly 2 years old. 

But fixing a pet for no other reason that "why not?" eh.


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

I had my guy done at 26 months .. I am moving to an area where few dogs are spayed or neutered and with my health issues I was worried a female in heat would be living in my area or be in an area where I was walking him and didn't want my guy to struggle to get to her ... worried about my ability to hold him back because of my poor balance ... it probably is stupid to think I would have a problem because he is very focused on me and great on walks but the thought of him escaping my yard was worrying me. He hasn't changed a bit .. no weight gain .. same temperament .. if it wasn't for my health issues I would have probably let him stay intact .. but in all honesty, I love him so much I might have given in to my deep wish to have another GSD just like him and studded him out for one of the pups - this solved both issues .. I hope he never has any heath issues because of my decision but it was done out of love for my best buddy.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Less muss and fuss, for me getting Delgado done was not just about him but about how other dogs were reacting to him. There honestly is medical evidence both ways, and being in the rescue world you definitely see a lot more irresponsibility and health issues than the normal John Smith. I don't regret keeping Delgado intact longer than I usually did nor do I regret neutering him


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> There honestly is medical evidence both ways, and being in the rescue world you definitely see a lot more irresponsibility and health issues than the normal John Smith. I don't regret keeping Delgado intact longer than I usually did nor do I regret neutering him


I think people involved in rescue or in the veterinary field are more likely to see the why of spay and neuter because they deal with seeing the consequences of not spaying or neutering daily(whether it's health or unwanted pregnancies)

Many years ago vets took their time and explained things to people. Now a days unless a person is educated the vet will go the easiest route. They are tired of banging their head against the wall. I explained to my vet what rehab I was giving Robyn for her FHO, because it was never recommended, she said that swimming is very good. I couldn't resist so I asked why she didn't mention it. Her answer was because people do what is minimally required, so it doesn't come up. Is that right? Probably not, but how many times do they tell people stuff and it goes in one ear and out the other? Constantly and consistently. A completely different vet pretty much told me the same thing when I came in with my FHO booklet and schedule for Brennan. 

It's much easier for vets to pull it the responsible card, because it's simple and people hear that. They do not ask any questions because that would be just to difficult. It's the same with vaccinstions and obesity in pets. Vets don't say much or recommend anything because people don't listen or they get offended.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

When I told a friend that I was going to keep Remi intact indefinitely, he said "why torture him like that". His thinking was that the dog has urges to procreate and by getting him fixed you take those urges out. If you don't, you are torturing him with his desire being there but not being able to act on it. 

Remi is still intact and will remain that way. If I have to control my urges, he has to control his


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

eddie1976E said:


> When I told a friend that I was going to keep Remi intact indefinitely, he said "why torture him like that". His thinking was that the dog has urges to procreate and by getting him fixed you take those urges out. If you don't, you are torturing him with his desire being there but not being able to act on it.
> 
> Remi is still intact and will remain that way. If I have to control my urges, he has to control his


The only problem with this is that you are human your dog isn't. In males the hormones they have boils down to sex hormones. Do they need to have sex? Once the hormones do their job with assisting in growth(which I do believe is needed and I didn't necessarily believe before) What other reason do they need them for? It's just as silly as someone saying they won't fix their male because it will make him less of a man--really? It's a dog, not a man!


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

It is pounded into peoples heads that in order to be a good pet owner they have to have their animals nuetered. I don't think I've ever seen a TV program even suggest that keeping a dog intact is a good thing it's always a negative. So people are really getting one sided info. They are told you will be responsible for all these unwanted puppies. Well. I'm sure I'm not the only one here with intact animals and have never had an accidental breeding and have dogs perfectly happy, healthy and intact.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Could very well be a personal preference.. nothing more, nothing less.. Maybe they've weighed all the options and decided neutering is best for there situation, life style?

One of my males is neutered, but it was due to a health issue.. One that is very common in unaltered males... I've not noticed a change in his weight, behavior, drives, aggression, etc.. What I have noticed since his health is back up, just how crappy he was feeling, but this dog still gave me his all.. 

Had a female that was spayed, same with her.. no change what so ever...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My older intact male recently had an injury that we were trying to diagnose. He has had an enlarged prostate,( when around bitches in heat triggers it) and sometimes it flares up causing him pain. I took him to the vet because he was clearly in distress(hunched, yelpy and wouldn't go outside or even walk unless I made him). 
I was examining him at home I did compare him to my younger male for any abnormalties in the groin area and she commented that was smart as she seldom sees any males that are intact anymore. 
I am glad I use a reproductive specialist regularly. The regular pet vets are all about spay/neuters. My repro vet is more about individual cases and keeping the dog intact if possible.
It ended up being a left side body injury, he either skidded on ice or was T-boned by my younger male.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> The only problem with this is that you are human your dog isn't. In males the hormones they have boils down to sex hormones. Do they need to have sex? Once the hormones do their job with assisting in growth(which I do believe is needed and I didn't necessarily believe before) What other reason do they need them for? It's just as silly as someone saying they won't fix their male because it will make him less of a man--really? It's a dog, not a man!


I thought the hormones continually offered benefits for structure not just for growth?


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

If the dog is 18 months or older and they don't plan on breeding, why not neuter? What if the dog got out and impregnated some other dog? Accidents happen. Not to mention, neutering can prevent some types of cancers, so if the dog is old enough to be fully developed why shouldnt he be neutered?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I'm a responsible owner. I manage my pack fine. I also neuter. I just flat don't like non neutered males. My dog, my choice. Why does it bother you?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Tulip - here's an article from a 13 year study done by UC Davis. It and many others explain some of the reasons.

NewStat | UC Davis study compares long-term health effects of neutering on golden retrievers, Labradors


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

It only mentions the negative side effects of dogs neutered before 6 months. I was talking about dogs being neutered after 18 months.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> I thought the hormones continually offered benefits for structure not just for growth?



Everything I have researched points to they benefit from the hormones to fully mature and develope. After they do so, the hormones aren't really needed for anything else as far as structure goes. It then becomes a battle of which cancers can be more dangerous. It's really a no win situation. Your basically picking the lesser of two evils.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Tulip said:


> It only mentions the negative side effects of dogs neutered before 6 months. I was talking about dogs being neutered after 18 months.


That's the thing with the studies. They all focus more on the spay/neutering early and kinda skate over spay/neutering later. They are very focused on the earlier procedures


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

maxtmill said:


> Pet owners are constantly being bombarded with the "be a responsible owner - spay and neuter your pets" message. There are too many ignorant/stupid dog owners who either tie their dogs out to a tree or let them run loose, and then end up sitting in the Walmart parking lot with a boxful of mongrel unwanted pups to get rid of. If your friend is a responsible owner and manages her pack well, and ensures that her males cannot wander, she probably doesn't HAVE to neuter.


This was my thought, reading the OP. I hear over and over the pressure pet owners get to neuter, because it's "just" a pet. More times than I can count, after doing the, "ahem" thing when friends rail on the evils of people who don't spay or neuter right away, I hear a stuttered, "Oh, uh, but, you're the exception, you can actually keep your dog from getting pregnant." People firmly believe that anyone who keeps an intact pet is irresponsible and selfish.

We waited for our girl and that was the right choice for her, but I can see how it would be more challenging for some people dependent on situation, and I can see how some people wouldn't want to do it. It certainly isn't fun dealing with a dog in season, and it wasn't fun for her either. We never considered NOT honoring our contract, so we'd have made it work regardless, but I could see it being hard under some circumstances. A fully fenced yard was what made it actually feasible for us; poor girl got NO exercise other than what we were able to do in the fenced yard, because my city does not allow a dog in season to set foot off the owner's property.

So I will not blame someone who chooses to do it earlier. That's a choice they have to make based on what they feel is right for their dog and their situation, and what they can responsibly manage. I will raise an eyebrow at someone who violates their contract with the breeder to do it earlier, but if the breeder allows it, I will not judge. Just like I will not judge someone who chooses to leave their pet intact for life and manages it responsibly. It just seems dumb for me to waste my mental energy on that when it's a personal choice; the only time I'm going to raise an eyebrow is if someone gets the bright idea to try to mandate for all of us when we should alter.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Tulip said:


> It only mentions the negative side effects of dogs neutered before 6 months. I was talking about dogs being neutered after 18 months.


That's just one article. If you Google "Should I neuter my dog" you will be able to read dozens of others on the topic. Many of them say wait until after the 2nd heat, one I read says up to 2 1/2 years. Some say at 3 to 4 years of age. The problem is that you are dealing with life stages. Some diseases will not attack a dog later in life and that's where it gets interesting in trying to make the decision.... 

At this point in time, as everyone else has stated, there are health benefits and risks to neuter or not. That's why it's an individual decision. But, I would think it prudent to read the available resources and studies before making that individual decision.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Tulip said:


> If the dog is 18 months or older and they don't plan on breeding, why not neuter? What if the dog got out and impregnated some other dog? Accidents happen. Not to mention, neutering can prevent some types of cancers, so if the dog is old enough to be fully developed why shouldnt he be neutered?


If I had a 12-18mo male who was right on that cusp between show/breed quality and pet quality, I would be really hesitant to neuter him before we had a good idea of how he'd turn out. I could see taking a "wait and see" approach for a male, who wouldn't be going through seasons, pregnancy, and whelping.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm a responsible owner. I manage my pack fine. I also neuter. I just flat don't like non neutered males. *My dog, my choice. Why does it bother you?*


I agree very strongly with your bolded text - it cuts in all directions. When and whether I alter should be between myself, my breeder, and my veterinarian. That means it's nobody's business IF I alter, and if I do, it's nobody's business if I do it at 8 weeks or 8 years. That has to be a decision made balancing what the breeder stipulates by contract, my individual circumstances, my dog's individual health situation, and what my vet advises. Friends, family members, and acquaintances are not granted votes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> I agree very strongly with your bolded text - it cuts in all directions. When and whether I alter should be between myself, my breeder, and my veterinarian. That means it's nobody's business IF I alter, and if I do, it's nobody's business if I do it at 8 weeks or 8 years. That has to be a decision made balancing what the breeder stipulates by contract, my individual circumstances, my dog's individual health situation, and what my vet advises. Friends, family members, and acquaintances are not granted votes.


I do believe in personal choice, but if you had a healthy dog and the vet said you should amputate one of its legs because it may get bone cancer, would you? It is not about people trying to judge, or limit, personal choice, but in what is good for the dog and especially with male dogs, the studies are overwhelming that keeping it intact is what is best for the dog's health. The results for females are more iffy on either side.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

For those saying getting a male neutered will stop his urges when around a female in season: NO. Most will try mounting her--maybe 5% of them won't.

Once I was with our neutered male (technically my girlfriend's dog...technically her responsibility (yet I'm the one who puts all the work into him)...so it was her choice to neuter while young) out late at a park and we bumped into a gal I've met a handful of times with her intact female that was nearing the end of her heat. Our dogs absolutely love playing with each other so we let 'em off to play. After a bit, my male would occasionally attempt to mount her. Stopped them. No biggie. But after a little longer, they both became very persistent about it. I had happened to have his e-collar on him since it has a good light on it and it was dark out. Turned the remote on. The next time he tried mounting, he got a nick and quickly got off her. After 5 minutes he tried again and got the same nick. The next 40 minutes after that, he never tried mounting her again, no matter how much she tried enticing him (and she really tried a lot). 

While talking with the owner, she said she once tried the mistake of taking her out earlier with a doggy diaper. Every male (nearly all neutered) tried mounting her. Only one dog didn't. He was actually keeping the others away from her. I know that dog, too. Not sure if intact or not, but he is a true alpha among dogs. He may have just been keeping the lesser males away from her because they weren't allowed to (because he said so--not because humans said so--only the alpha male may touch an in heat female). And he probably made no attempts at mounting because he is way way way way bigger than the female.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Saito said:


> For those saying getting a male neutered will stop his urges when around a female in season: NO. Most will try mounting her--maybe 5% of them won't.
> 
> Once I was with our neutered male (technically my girlfriend's dog...technically her responsibility (yet I'm the one who puts all the work into him)...so it was her choice to neuter while young) out late at a park and we bumped into a gal I've met a handful of times with her intact female that was nearing the end of her heat. Our dogs absolutely love playing with each other so we let 'em off to play. After a bit, my male would occasionally attempt to mount her. Stopped them. No biggie. But after a little longer, they both became very persistent about it. I had happened to have his e-collar on him since it has a good light on it and it was dark out. Turned the remote on. The next time he tried mounting, he got a nick and quickly got off her. After 5 minutes he tried again and got the same nick. The next 40 minutes after that, he never tried mounting her again, no matter how much she tried enticing him (and she really tried a lot).
> 
> While talking with the owner, she said she once tried the mistake of taking her out earlier with a doggy diaper. Every male (nearly all neutered) tried mounting her. Only one dog didn't. He was actually keeping the others away from her. I know that dog, too. Not sure if intact or not, but he is a true alpha among dogs. He may have just been keeping the lesser males away from her because they weren't allowed to (because he said so--not because humans said so--only the alpha male may touch an in heat female). And he probably made no attempts at mounting because he is way way way way bigger than the female.


Thanks for sharing that, interesting observation.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Being a cynic of course....$$$$$$$ for the sterilization facilities.


SuperG


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I do believe in personal choice, but if you had a healthy dog and the vet said you should amputate one of its legs because it may get bone cancer, would you? It is not about people trying to judge, or limit, personal choice, but in what is good for the dog and especially with male dogs, the studies are overwhelming that keeping it intact is what is best for the dog's health. The results for females are more iffy on either side.


Me personally? No. I would not.

But what business is it of mine if my next door neighbor or best friend decides, "Well, my dog is healthy, but for ____ reasons, it will work better for us if he is neutered"? Seriously, what business is it of mine? It doesn't affect me, doesn't affect my dog, it's their personal choice.

Not only that, but if I'm going to get up in arms about people advocating for mandatory spay/neuter laws (and I am so so against laws like that), I'm a hypocrite if I start putting on my judgy pants about people choosing to exercise their free will and do it early.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To me it is not: "if it ain't broke why fix it" but "if it ain't broke, why break it?"
People are brainwashed when it comes to neutering. Even late neutering. if you can live with a male until he is 18 months you might as well leave him like that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Me personally? No. I would not.
> 
> But what business is it of mine if my next door neighbor or best friend decides, "Well, my dog is healthy, but for ____ reasons, it will work better for us if he is neutered"? Seriously, what business is it of mine? It doesn't affect me, doesn't affect my dog, it's their personal choice.
> 
> Not only that, but if I'm going to get up in arms about people advocating for mandatory spay/neuter laws (and I am so so against laws like that), I'm a hypocrite if I start putting on my judgy pants about people choosing to exercise their free will and do it early.


When somebody's decision impacts a living, breathing creature that is 100% reliant upon them for their health, safety and well being, and they choose to neuter because it works better for them, and not because it is in the dog's better interests, this is a problem, IMO. 

I don't believe that it is simply a matter of a difference of opinion when somebody neuters for convenience when a living creature is involved. 

IMO, one either likes the dogs in their entirety, or they like dogs for what they want them to be, even if they have to neuter the dog to force it to fit the image they want to see.

Of course there are always valid reasons for speutering, but with the availability of vasectomies and partial spays that leave ovaries intact, citing reasons like procreation and pyometra are not really valid any more.

There are people all over the world fighting for unchaining laws, stronger anti cruelty laws, anti declawing laws, anti docking and cropping laws, etc. Why? Because all too frequently, these practices derive from a root of convenience, personal choice, but not in the better interest of the animal.

Am I comparing animal abuse to neutering for convenience? If others dismiss neutering as a personal choice, then yes, I am. Neither is for the good of the animal, and I speak of neutering in this essence as if it were done merely for convenience.

"Ooops! I forgot to feed the dog but I am bed now, I will do it tomorrow." Convenience.

"My dog is not housebroken so I keep it chained outside." Convenience.

"My cat won't stop scratching my furniture. I will just have the vet amputate a joint or two off of its toes." Convenience. 

When personal opinion transcends thoughts and translates into action that causes harm to a living creature based out of convenience, it should not be taken lightly or dismissed. 



wolfy dog said:


> To me it is not: "if it ain't broke why fix it" but "if it ain't broke, why break it?"
> People are brainwashed when it comes to neutering. Even late neutering. if you can live with a male until he is 18 months you might as well leave him like that.


That is a great quote worth repeating: "If it ain't broke, why break it?" :thumbup:


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

These responses really boggle my mind.

Since when is a neutered dog "broken"? What about the altered pets that live to 15 being "fixed" at 6 weeks and fed alpo it's whole life? 

I chose to neuter my dog at 6 years old. Could I have dealt with both his and my own stress during the heat cycles of my younger bitches? Sure. Do I want the added mental and physical stress that it leads to during that time? Nope. I plan on altering my females when they're retired from competition/breeding as well rather than wait for the occurance of pyometra. Not brainwashed at all. It's a personal choice.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I had my male neutered a little after 2. He was trying to up himself in pack dinamics. He's very challenging with my husband, but he started challenging me and as head bitch I don't appreciate it. Training issue? Perhaps. But I neutered him. I gave it a lot of thought, especially due to his MegaE. 
He's been better and doesn't challenge me, but still will butt heads with my husband every now and then. 
It's a personal choice. 
I'm glad I neutered him.. Now when he cuddles I don't feel his "stuff" on my leg.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Since when is a neutered dog "broken"? What about the altered pets that live to 15 being "fixed" at 6 weeks and fed alpo it's whole life?


Exactly!!

And that's the thing with studies, though.. You use it as a guide, not gospel... It's up to us to do what's best for our dogs..


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The feeling I got from Selzer's post was it wasn't about never neutering or spaying,it was a concern about screwing up the pack dynamics.Possibly a vasectomy would be a better option?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Are preople really offended by boy-parts?





DTS said:


> I'm glad I neutered him.. Now when he cuddles I don't feel his "stuff" on my leg.


I have seen this on other threads as well. If you don't like male parts, then why get a male with the expectation of removing his male parts? Why not just get a female?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Just my personal preference but I will probably always spay and neuter my pets. When I get another male I will wait to neuter him until he is 24 months old. If ever I were to get another female I would wait to spay her until she's 18 months old. 

Dogs can and do get stolen and sometimes it's because they are intact and can be used for breeding purposes. But not only that, what if I am out of town and the person taking care of my animals makes a mistake and my dog gets lose and either impregnates another dog or gets impregnated itself? Or remember that poster that went out of town and the person taking care of their dog purposely bred it to another dog? I don't want to take those chances.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When somebody's decision impacts a living, breathing creature that is 100% reliant upon them for their health, safety and well being, and they choose to neuter because it works better for them, and not because it is in the dog's better interests, this is a problem, IMO.
> 
> I don't believe that it is simply a matter of a difference of opinion when somebody neuters for convenience when a living creature is involved.
> 
> ...


And you're free to have that principle work for you.

I can't and won't invest that much energy in what someone else wants to choose for their pet, provided they are not trying to force their choice on me. That is what works for me, and right now my mind is not changing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> And you're free to have that principle work for you.
> 
> I can't and won't invest that much energy in what someone else wants to choose for their pet, provided they are not trying to force their choice on me. That is what works for me, and right now my mind is not changing.


Not trying to change anybody's mind. Just trying to clarify my point. The post was not meant as a judgment of you.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not trying to change anybody's mind. Just trying to clarify my point. The post was not meant as a judgment of you.


No worries! I have had some people try to engage me in bizarre debates (not necessarily on this forum) so I try to head that off at the pass as much as possible if I'm not interested.

And today I have a headache so I'm not.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen this on other threads as well. If you don't like male parts, then why get a male with the expectation of removing his male parts? Why not just get a female?


Because I already have a female. And I'd rather not take a chance on having same sex aggression. 
Plus, I know the jury is still out on males bonding with female handlers better, but in our home that's how it went. 
Titan is extremely bonded to me where as my female, despite me doing all the training, feeding, exercising, and playing, is more bonded with my husband.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen this on other threads as well. If you don't like male parts, then why get a male with the expectation of removing his male parts? Why not just get a female?


To add to that, females have parts too. Sometimes stinky parts just like human females, if something isn't quite healthy. Both sexes have parts and both can be gross. I guess I don't think one is worse than the other for gross factor.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

DTS said:


> Because I already have a female. And I'd rather not take a chance on having same sex aggression.
> Plus, I know the jury is still out on males bonding with female handlers better, but in our home that's how it went.
> Titan is extremely bonded to me where as my female, despite me doing all the training, feeding, exercising, and playing, is more bonded with my husband.


I really can't respond to your comment not knowing whether you have one or both fixed, and if one, which one, not enough information.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> To add to that, females have parts too. Sometimes stinky parts just like human females, if something isn't quite healthy. Both sexes have parts and both can be gross. I guess I don't think one is worse than the other for gross factor.


Now you are cooking with gas! LOL!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> These responses really boggle my mind.
> 
> Since when is a neutered dog "broken"?


To me they are, if it is done routinely without giving it any thought. It is my personal opinion. I am not against neutering for medical reasons. My first dog had a persistent foreskin infection that actually made the house smell and the walls dirty. After giving it a lot of thought I had him neutered when he was 4 years old and he never had that problem again. Even though I would not choose to have a Pit, but if it happened to be the case, that dog would be neutered at 9 months of age because of the breed's history and to lessen the possibility of DA. Please let's not go into the pit issues now; it was just meant as an example.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't really see what difference it makes. 

It is still a dog at the end of the day, altered or not.

If i paraded 10 dogs on front of you, and let you interact with them, with out seeing their bits, could anyone honestly tell me which is altered? I think not.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When somebody's decision impacts a living, breathing creature that is 100% reliant upon them for their health, safety and well being, and they choose to neuter because it works better for them, and not because it is in the dog's better interests, this is a problem, IMO.
> 
> I don't believe that it is simply a matter of a difference of opinion when somebody neuters for convenience when a living creature is involved.
> 
> ...



This is absolutely ridiculous. I have my dogs fixed because I believe that is the healthiest decision for them. I love my dogs for who they are in their entirety, whether or not they are fixed. Fixing them doesn't change who they are. I am a proactive person and anything that I can do to prevent anything is done. I'm not going to let it get broken if I can help it. Just because you don't think its healthy for them not to be fixed, doesn't mean that is true nor how everyone feels. By pushing it the way you do, you aren't any better then the vets that push for spay and neuter.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MadLab said:


> If i paraded 10 dogs on front of you, and let you interact with them, with out seeing their bits, could anyone honestly tell me which is altered? I think not.


That is not the point. It is not about the looks but their inner physical health. Shorthaired dogs, yes, you can see it by their neutral butt, . Longhaired dogs, I can see it by their dull and fluffy coats.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Madlab


> If i paraded 10 dogs on front of you, and let you interact with them, with out seeing their bits, could anyone honestly tell me which is altered?


Wolfydog..


> It is not about the looks but their inner physical health.


I was talking about the spirit of the animal. You couldn't tell the difference between altered or not.

I know dogs neutered, physically damaged after accident, etc. Non perfect dogs. 

Never would i describe them as 'broken' as you did about a dog who is simply neutered. In fact they are full of life and total dogs imo.


Regarding this comment


> These responses really boggle my mind.
> 
> Since when is a neutered dog "broken"?


Wolfy said


> To me they are,


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

All my animals, dogs & cats, are spay/neutered mostly when they are mature..I've kept a couple of males intact till around 3 years of age, but that's the oldest. Why? My personal choice, I don't want to deal with in heat bitches, and my males, tho never an issue with any of them, I decided to neuter them. 

It all boils down to personal choice and no one should be made to think they are "bad" for their choice whatever it is..


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I don't really see what difference it makes.
> 
> It is still a dog at the end of the day, altered or not.
> 
> If i paraded 10 dogs on front of you, and let you interact with them, with out seeing their bits, could anyone honestly tell me which is altered? I think not.


Most experienced people can spot a speutered animal at a distance.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Most experienced people can spot a* speutered *animal at a distance.


Seriously? Females are easy to identify if they are spayed? 
How can you tell that?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Seriously? Females are easy to identify if they are spayed?
> How can you tell that?


I'd be curious too.

But my girl's body composition has changed since she was spayed, maybe that's it? She's less cut (muscle wise). She did need to add some body weight and in fact the vet likes her overall weight where it is, but we're working hard to get said weight redistributed so she isn't slightly thick around the middle but with not quite enough rib cover.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> This is absolutely ridiculous. I have my dogs fixed because I believe that is the healthiest decision for them. I love my dogs for who they are in their entirety, whether or not they are fixed. Fixing them doesn't change who they are. I am a proactive person and anything that I can do to prevent anything is done. I'm not going to let it get broken if I can help it. Just because you don't think its healthy for them not to be fixed, doesn't mean that is true nor how everyone feels. By pushing it the way you do, you aren't any better then the vets that push for spay and neuter.


This is absolutely ridiculous. Fixing dogs does change temperament and behavior, hormones play a very important role in behavior even in humans. You, personally, can't quit posting about the changes in your last dog's temperament in post after post after post on this forum. If you were the proactive person you claim to be, then you would know that studies have proven that neutering a dog is detrimental to its health, breaking what wasn't broke to begin with. It does not matter what I think is healthier for a dog, I am not a scientist, vet, or biologist but I let the professionals do the peer reviewed research and I do carefully weigh what their studies have found. If presenting FACTS by the professionals makes me wrong then it is what it is, but by your excessive reaction, I suspect I struck a nerve of inconvenience.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> Seriously? Females are easy to identify if they are spayed?
> How can you tell that?


Yes. If the dog was spayed early on, there are many factors that tip you off such as the extra long legs, lack of musculature and lack of secondary characteristics. I can frequently even tell if the dog has been speutered prior to six months, or after, but prior to maturity, they tend to have the aforementioned traits but to a lesser degree, and dogs spayed after maturity, usually don't have the structural markers but will have the other markers, all of this based on specific physical markers. Behavior is another huge marker that can be used to identify speutered vs intact dogs. 




WateryTart said:


> I'd be curious too.
> 
> But my girl's body composition has changed since she was spayed, maybe that's it? She's less cut (muscle wise). She did need to add some body weight and in fact the vet likes her overall weight where it is, but we're working hard to get said weight redistributed so she isn't slightly thick around the middle but with not quite enough rib cover.


Case in point.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> > But my girl's body composition has changed since she was spayed, maybe that's it? She's less cut (muscle wise). She did need to add some body weight and in fact the vet likes her overall weight where it is, but we're working hard to get said weight redistributed so she isn't slightly thick around the middle but with not quite enough rib cover.
> ...


For the record, this drives me freaking nuts. She was slightly underweight before but so shapely and well muscled. I don't think we'll ever be able to totally fix it, but we are trying.

At least her personality hasn't changed that I can tell. Maybe it did and we just didn't notice because she was relatively young, but we don't have knowledge of that loss.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> For the record, this drives me freaking nuts. She was slightly underweight before but so shapely and well muscled. I don't think we'll ever be able to totally fix it, but we are trying.
> 
> At least her personality hasn't changed that I can tell. Maybe it did and we just didn't notice because she was relatively young, but we don't have knowledge of that loss.


Best, and most honest, post on here!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm curious is people posted pics of their female dogs if MAWL can identify the ones that are fixed and the ones that are not. I've never heard of spaying having changing the physical characteristics of a female, but I'm open to learning new things. Like I didn't know that spaying males early affected their development, but learned about it on the forum, and actually saw the difference in some of the pics being posted. Can we do the same for spayed females?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm curious is people posted pics of their female dogs if MAWL can identify the ones that are fixed and the ones that are not. I've never heard of spaying having changing the physical characteristics of a female, but I'm open to learning new things. Like I didn't know that spaying males early affected their development, but learned about it on the forum, and actually saw the difference in some of the pics being posted. Can we do the same for spayed females?


Well I gave mine away as spayed, so we can't do a "blindfold test" with her, but that would be interesting.

I think her body composition did change - loss of lean muscle - and that makes sense to me when I think about how many women's bodies change during and after menopause. That's why I don't think we'll ever get her physique back to what it was, but we'll certainly try because it will benefit her in the long run to be as lean and fit as possible.

And actually now I have to go and exercise my dog, but this is an interesting side discussion.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I really can't respond to your comment not knowing whether you have one or both fixed, and if one, which one, not enough information.


They both are fixed actually. My female, is a bit dominant at times, and my male fits very well with her, and plays well with her, their personalities are a good match. 
If I would have gotten a Female Titan from his litter I would have had problems on my hands that I'm not wanting to deal with. 

Before fixing my male, I had a very long talk with one of the members here that I trust his opinion. 
Also, Titan has put on a few lbs from his neuter. Due to his MegaE, it's extremely difficult to keep any type of weight on him, so in that aspect it's helped. 

Either way, it is what it is. Everything dies in the end,
One way or another, with or without being fixed or unaltered.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm curious is people posted pics of their female dogs if MAWL can identify the ones that are fixed and the ones that are not. I've never heard of spaying having changing the physical characteristics of a female, but I'm open to learning new things. Like I didn't know that spaying males early affected their development, but learned about it on the forum, and actually saw the difference in some of the pics being posted. Can we do the same for spayed females?


I for one would not want to be the one to give personal opinions on other people's dogs on this forum although I have seen pictures of other members dogs on this forum and the effects of spaying and neutering were quite obvious on many.

It would be interesting as in many of the threads I see dog after dog standing 28", 29" 32" all the while weighing 63#s, 57#s, 72#s, etc., and I always wished they would post speuter stats and at what age, on all those height / weight threads on this forum for somebody to start a thread. I also see so many GSDs that are called oversized based on being within standard height but hitting the scales at over 100#s. Pictures show them to be grossly overweight. How many young and middle aged GSDs has anybody really seen that are intact and overweight to such a degree? Sure it happens, but really, how often? Are these people accurately measuring and weighing their dogs? 

It would make for a great thread for people to post somewhat stacked pictures of their dogs height, weight, intact or speutered, and at what age. I think the results would be amazing and there would be much to learn without singling out anybody's dog in particular.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

DTS said:


> They both are fixed actually. My female, is a bit dominant at times, and my male fits very well with her, and plays well with her, their personalities are a good match.
> If I would have gotten a Female Titan from his litter I would have had problems on my hands that I'm not wanting to deal with.
> 
> Before fixing my male, I had a very long talk with one of the members here that I trust his opinion.
> ...


Sorry to hear about your dog's Mega E. With his health issues, it sounds like you made a wise decision.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Well I gave mine away as spayed, so we can't do a "blindfold test" with her, but that would be interesting.
> 
> I think her body composition did change - loss of lean muscle - and that makes sense to me when I think about how many women's bodies change during and after menopause. That's why I don't think we'll ever get her physique back to what it was, but we'll certainly try because it will benefit her in the long run to be as lean and fit as possible.
> 
> And actually now I have to go and exercise my dog, but this is an interesting side discussion.


Yes, you can do the blind fold test, muscle feels very different than fat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like this answer. For me, it makes more sense than "just because." I personally think that an agenda against breeding really has married being responsible to spaying and neutering so much so that in a lot of cases, people really don't know why they want to spay/neuter, they just have it ingrained in them that it is the right thing to do, the responsible thing to do. 



LaRen616 said:


> Just my personal preference but I will probably always spay and neuter my pets. When I get another male I will wait to neuter him until he is 24 months old. If ever I were to get another female I would wait to spay her until she's 18 months old.
> 
> Dogs can and do get stolen and sometimes it's because they are intact and can be used for breeding purposes. But not only that, what if I am out of town and the person taking care of my animals makes a mistake and my dog gets lose and either impregnates another dog or gets impregnated itself? Or remember that poster that went out of town and the person taking care of their dog purposely bred it to another dog? I don't want to take those chances.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry to hear about your dog's Mega E. With his health issues, it sounds like you made a wise decision.


Thank you. We are lucky with him, his isn't too bad, he has more good days than bad days. 
The sick animals always seem to make their way to me. 
We bought our first from a byb not knowing anything. She has allergies, temperament issues, severe hip dysplasia. 

So the next puppy we wanted to go with a reputable breeder, which we did and we got Titan. Sometimes things are just meant to be. :hug:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

DTS said:


> Thank you. We are lucky with him, his isn't too bad, he has more good days than bad days.
> The sick animals always seem to make their way to me.
> We bought our first from a byb not knowing anything. She has allergies, temperament issues, severe hip dysplasia.
> 
> So the next puppy we wanted to go with a reputable breeder, which we did and we got Titan. Sometimes things are just meant to be. :hug:


I was like you, I took in the ones that nobody wanted. Who knows where some of them came from? It worked for a while, but I started seeing so much more than poor health, but a lot of bad temperaments. That is when I turned to reputable breeders and have not been disappointed.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> If I had a 12-18mo male who was right on that cusp between show/breed quality and pet quality, I would be really hesitant to neuter him before we had a good idea of how he'd turn out. I could see taking a "wait and see" approach for a male, who wouldn't be going through seasons, pregnancy, and whelping.


 I agree with this, I was just talking about strictly pet dogs


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I agree with all the answers saying that spay/neuter = responsible has been ingrained into the general public's brain. 

I also think there is a lot of misinformation about what spay and neuter actually does to the dog. So many vets, trainers, rescuers, etc seem to gloss over the surgery. Oh it's a simple procedure all positive benefits etc. You sometimes have to press for information about the risks and negatives. 

I don't have female dogs so all my thoughts from here on out are from the stand point of neutering males. 

First thing - the whole neutering prevents cancer benefit. Sure. I buy that. Neutering absolutely prevents testicular and prostate cancer. However keeping my dog intact prevents bone cancer. My thoughts are a surgery to cut out cancer ridden testes and a prostate is going less effect my guy's quality of life and recovery then cutting off his leg. 

Testosterone is so important for the body physically. Aside from reproductive stand point - It maintains muscle mass, fat distribution, bone density, and red blood cell count. 

It was said earlier in the thread that health issues seen in intact dogs are more prevalent. I would think on the service yes, intact male comes in with prostate issues. Obviously because he still has the family jewels. But the thing is, what about all the neutered dogs presenting with various issues that may not obviously relate back to the lack of hormones? Skeletal issues like fractures, anemia, pulled muscles and sports type injuries, the whole host of issues coming along with being over weight. Lack of testosterone can be the underlying cause for all of those.

The other thing that I rarely see discussed when talking about neutering dogs is the emotional and mental side effects. I guess because we can't just ask them how they're feeling we can't say for sure how it really effects them, but all and all humans and dogs aren't all that different. We know from men who have undergone orchiectomies and those who have low testosterone that there are a bunch of non physical side effects. Depression, irritability, mood swings, low self confidence, low energy/fatigue, sleep disturbances, poor concentration, poor memory and lack of motivation among them.

Of course i suppose some of those things are a plus? If you want a mellow house pet. Not what i want for my boy - He is staying intact.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I agree with the people advocating for personal choice. Is every spayed/neutered dog out there overweight, dying early, and developing cancer? No. I understand that there are studies suggesting health risks correlated with spaying/neutering, especially spaying/neutering early, however, this does not mean that everyone should keep their dogs intact just because it *may* keep them healthier. Everyone should weigh out the risks of neutering/not neutering themselves, and decide for THEMSELVES whether or not they want to spay/neuter THEIR dog. It is in no way "cruel" to neuter dogs based solely on these studies. On the flip side, it is in no way "cruel" to leave a dog intact. There are plenty of studies suggesting the health risks of not spaying/neutering as well, which is why I believe everyone should make their own personal decisions on this. Personally, I prefer all pet dogs to be spayed/neutered after they finish growing, but I may be biased considering I work at a vet clinic . But bottom line, everyone should be left to make their own decisions and not be judged for them.

MAWL, can you tell if my female is spayed or intact? Just curious .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

voodoolamb said:


> I agree with all the answers saying that spay/neuter = responsible has been ingrained into the general public's brain.
> 
> I also think there is a lot of misinformation about what spay and neuter actually does to the dog. So many vets, trainers, rescuers, etc seem to gloss over the surgery. Oh it's a simple procedure all positive benefits etc. You sometimes have to press for information about the risks and negatives.
> 
> ...


 yes, but neutering doesn't prevent prostate cancer. One of my pups who was neutered young died of it at age 7 or 8. They say that enlarged prostate is common in intact males, but the risk of prostate cancer is higher in neutered males.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> yes, but neutering doesn't prevent prostate cancer. One of my pups who was neutered young died of it at age 7 or 8. They say that enlarged prostate is common in intact males, but the risk of prostate cancer is higher in neutered males.


Yes! You are right. I was thinking "neutering prevents testicular cancer and*benign prostatic hyperplasia" and some how had a brain fart that made me think BPH = cancer. Meh. Need coffee.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tulip said:


> I agree with the people advocating for personal choice. Is every spayed/neutered dog out there overweight, dying early, and developing cancer? No. I understand that there are studies suggesting health risks correlated with spaying/neutering, especially spaying/neutering early, however, this does not mean that everyone should keep their dogs intact just because it *may* keep them healthier. Everyone should weigh out the risks of neutering/not neutering themselves, and decide for THEMSELVES whether or not they want to spay/neuter THEIR dog. It is in no way "cruel" to neuter dogs based solely on these studies. On the flip side, it is in no way "cruel" to leave a dog intact. There are plenty of studies suggesting the health risks of not spaying/neutering as well, which is why I believe everyone should make their own personal decisions on this. Personally, I prefer all pet dogs to be spayed/neutered after they finish growing, but I may be biased considering I work at a vet clinic . But bottom line, everyone should be left to make their own decisions and not be judged for them.
> 
> MAWL, can you tell if my female is spayed or intact? Just curious .


 The way I see this, is one of those philosophy squares:

If I do not spay/neuter and my dog does not develop a cancer/problem somewhat related to spay/neuter -- good.

If I do not spay/neuter and my dog does develop a cancer/problem somewhat related to spay/neuter -- not good.

If I do spay/neuter and my dog does not develop a cancer/problem somewhat related to spay/neuter -- good.

If I spay/neuter and my dog develops a cancer/problem somewhat related to spay/neuter -- devastating.

I see the critter as a whole is what is what is intended in nature. Doing something physical to prevent behavior or possible health issues is unnatural in my opinion. Evenso, sometimes that just makes sense, like in the case of feral cats. But I don't like risking health issues to possibly prevent others.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tulip said:


> I agree with the people advocating for personal choice. Is every spayed/neutered dog out there overweight, dying early, and developing cancer? No. I understand that there are studies suggesting health risks correlated with spaying/neutering, especially spaying/neutering early, however, this does not mean that everyone should keep their dogs intact just because it *may* keep them healthier. Everyone should weigh out the risks of neutering/not neutering themselves, and decide for THEMSELVES whether or not they want to spay/neuter THEIR dog. It is in no way "cruel" to neuter dogs based solely on these studies. On the flip side, it is in no way "cruel" to leave a dog intact. There are plenty of studies suggesting the health risks of not spaying/neutering as well, which is why I believe everyone should make their own personal decisions on this. Personally, I prefer all pet dogs to be spayed/neutered after they finish growing, but I may be biased considering I work at a vet clinic . But bottom line, everyone should be left to make their own decisions and not be judged for them.
> 
> MAWL, can you tell if my female is spayed or intact? Just curious .


Bring her to me and I will let you know.

Being that you work for a vet clinic, you should be in an excellent position to see the obvious differences.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> yes, but neutering doesn't prevent prostate cancer. One of my pups who was neutered young died of it at age 7 or 8. They say that enlarged prostate is common in intact males, but the risk of prostate cancer is higher in neutered males.


My male had an enlarged prostrate and had to be neutered. It later turned into prostate and bladder cancer.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I agree with the people advocating for personal choice. Is every spayed/neutered dog out there overweight, dying early, and developing cancer? No. I understand that there are studies suggesting health risks correlated with spaying/neutering, especially spaying/neutering early, however, this does not mean that everyone should keep their dogs intact just because it *may* keep them healthier. Everyone should weigh out the risks of neutering/not neutering themselves, and decide for THEMSELVES whether or not they want to spay/neuter THEIR dog. It is in no way "cruel" to neuter dogs based solely on these studies. On the flip side, it is in no way "cruel" to leave a dog intact. There are plenty of studies suggesting the health risks of not spaying/neutering as well, which is why I believe everyone should make their own personal decisions on this. Personally, I prefer all pet dogs to be spayed/neutered after they finish growing, but I may be biased considering I work at a vet clinic*. But bottom line, everyone should be left to make their own decisions and not be judged for them.
> 
> MAWL, can you tell if my female is spayed or intact? Just curious


I'm curious as you talked about studies on health benefits of both neutered and intact - which specific health benefits of neutering dogs out weighed the health benefits of keeping them intact for you?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I agree with all the answers saying that spay/neuter = responsible has been ingrained into the general public's brain.
> 
> I also think there is a lot of misinformation about what spay and neuter actually does to the dog. So many vets, trainers, rescuers, etc seem to gloss over the surgery. Oh it's a simple procedure all positive benefits etc. You sometimes have to press for information about the risks and negatives.
> 
> ...


This, the bolded is simple biology and similar statements can be made about female hormones. It does not matter if you are human, dog, cat or horse, the hormone effect is the same.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Here's a couple for you MAWL.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don't understand how you can keep intact dogs. It depends where you live. I don't think I can get a license for my puppy until he is neutered. We are getting a lot of pressure to neuter our dog by 6 months, which is coming up soon. You can't take them to classes or to any dog parks or boarding unless they are neutered. Pet store employees ask me if he is fixed. It comes up everywhere I go. I don't know if we can make it to 18 months with the kind of pressure we are getting.


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

I have a non-spayed female, when we go on vacation she stays with a local petsitter who is fine with her being "intact"...and we have a private trainer who supports keeping her this way. We don't go to the dog park but not for this reason. I think you may just have to dig a bit, but you can find options to fit your choice.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

angelas said:


> Here's a couple for you MAWL.


Uh, didn't you read the post that I was not going to personally comment on anybody's dogs? I am not stupid so no need to try to set me up for personal attacks when I say something unsavory, but true, about somebody's dog, and we both know that is exactly what will happen. No need to bait or start fights.

It was suggested if somebody truly wants to learn, and not snipe or be petty, that a thread be started stating height, weight, age, intact vs speuter, and if speutered, what age so that all may see for themselves without pointing the finger at any particular dog. Perhaps if you are curious to learn, you could start the thread! 

It would be preferable that the thread be all German Shepherds as to simplify the learning process by comparing German Shepherds to German Shepherds and not German Shepherds to Maltese.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Uh, didn't you read the post that I was not going to personally comment on anybody's dogs? I am not stupid so no need to try to set me up for personal attacks when I say something unsavory, but true, about somebody's dog, and we both know that is exactly what will happen. No need to bait or start fights.
> 
> It was suggested if somebody truly wants to learn, and not snipe or be petty, that a thread be started stating height, weight, age, intact vs speuter, and if speutered, what age so that all may see for themselves without pointing the finger at any particular dog. Perhaps if you are curious to learn, you could start the thread!


Nope didn't see it. Not trying to draw you into a debate or personally attack you (not my style), just curious if you could tell and what your criteria for decision was. Picking out males usually pretty easy, just have to wait until they are walking away from you. I was interested in how your figured out females. I know loss of muscle tone has been mentioned but truthfully in one of my dogs I've observed the opposite. The Shih Tzu maintained very nice, hard muscle tone until after her 10th birthday. The mix had good muscle until she got fat. Coat? The Shih Tzu's coat was blech, but the mix had a beautiful coat (again, until her thyroid acted up, even then, it stayed nice, just shed a LOT).



LuvShepherds said:


> I don't understand how you can keep intact dogs. It depends where you live. I don't think I can get a license for my puppy until he is neutered. We are getting a lot of pressure to neuter our dog by 6 months, which is coming up soon. You can't take them to classes or to any dog parks or boarding unless they are neutered. Pet store employees ask me if he is fixed. It comes up everywhere I go. I don't know if we can make it to 18 months with the kind of pressure we are getting.


Before giving your address tell them you need a license for an intact puppy. If they refuse to give one walk away. When my last dog was 11 years old I went to renew her license. The idiot at the city desk wouldn't sell me one because she had her rabies vax in October 2010 and it was now January 2012, an issue because the city recognizes the vax for two years. Never mind she had been vaxxed 14 months previously because the year of the last vax was 2010, that meant it was due again. After arguing with the idiot for 10 minutes I walked out and never licensed her again. They sent me renewal notices, but they did that for 5 years for my other dog after I told them she had died and never came out to the house.

Any class or boarding kennel that can't handle an intact dog I wouldn't use. They are basically saying to me they don't have enough experience with dogs to be trusted with mine. Contact a kennel club. They'll be able to point you to classes and kennels where intact dogs are a none issue (except for bitches in heat). A club involved in conformation after all, revolves around a sport for intact dogs. Dog parks? All the more reason to stay away. Tell pet store employees that it's none of their dang business, especially if your dog is behaving and walking beside you quietly.

The equation that spaying and neutering equals responsible ownership is just the thing that animal rights terrorists like PETA and the HSUS need to strip way owners' rights over their dogs. Mandatory spay/neuter laws....a dog has a right to natural ears, tails and dewclaws but not their reproductive organs.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> I don't understand how you can keep intact dogs. It depends where you live. I don't think I can get a license for my puppy until he is neutered. We are getting a lot of pressure to neuter our dog by 6 months, which is coming up soon. You can't take them to classes or to any dog parks or boarding unless they are neutered. Pet store employees ask me if he is fixed. It comes up everywhere I go. I don't know if we can make it to 18 months with the kind of pressure we are getting


I am sure your dog can be licensed. Are there no dog breeders of any breed in your county? What about dogs with health issues that can not undergo surgery? I've never heard of a not being sble to get your intact dog licensed AT ALL - It may be more expensive to license an intact dog though. Where I live neutered tags cost $10. Intact costs $30. BUT if you have a letter from your vet saying you dog has health issues and they do not recommend it to be neutered or if you submit proof that your dog is a show dog (3 shows in a 12 month period) you can get the tag for $10.

There are always options for boarding and training... 

If you want to wait until 18 months. Wait till 18 months. Don't let uneducated people pressure you. Whenever I get that crud from people I just look them in the eye and say "no. I prefer for him not to have health complications due to the destruction of his endocrine system." A few big words and they usually just drop it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I don't understand how you can keep intact dogs. It depends where you live. I don't think I can get a license for my puppy until he is neutered. We are getting a lot of pressure to neuter our dog by 6 months, which is coming up soon. You can't take them to classes or to any dog parks or boarding unless they are neutered. Pet store employees ask me if he is fixed. It comes up everywhere I go. I don't know if we can make it to 18 months with the kind of pressure we are getting.


What state are in you in??? I have never hear of any requirements like that??

Not saying there aren't any just strikes me as a "violation" of something???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

angelas said:


> Nope didn't see it. Not trying to draw you into a debate or personally attack you (not my style), just curious if you could tell and what your criteria for decision was. Picking out males usually pretty easy, just have to wait until they are walking away from you. I was interested in how your figured out females. I know loss of muscle tone has been mentioned but truthfully in one of my dogs I've observed the opposite. The Shih Tzu maintained very nice, hard muscle tone until after her 10th birthday. The mix had good muscle until she got fat. Coat? The Shih Tzu's coat was blech, but the mix had a beautiful coat (again, until her thyroid acted up, even then, it stayed nice, just shed a LOT).


Apologies for my previous snippiness, but there are those on here that love to bait and harass.

Picking out males don't need to go as far as looking between the legs, and for me, it rarely does. It often can be leg length, lack of tuck up, lack of muscle tone, lack of secondary masculine characteristics (which, even if dog is adult, will diminish with neutering), weight distribution, weight composition, and even behavioral characteristics. Same can be said about females. A simple look on a male upon closer inspection will confirm my suspicions as will a simple asking an owner for confirmation for females. Heck, many times just the way my dogs act and their dogs act toward each other will provide confirmation. I know that speutered dogs tend to have slightly longer coats and sometimes a different texture, but that is not something I easily notice while I do know groomers that can easily spot this, especially in females, and there is a condition known as spay bitch coat too. It can occur in males as well, but not as often as in females, and not all dogs develop it. 

There is no escaping it. It is science, biology, the function of hormones is physical, emotional and behavioral. Even physics comes into play with one law stating: For each and every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You can't remove all those hormones and not have such an integral component of animal life that plays a key role in how they appear and act, and not have it impact those very same qualities when removed. People just can't say it ain't so and dismiss the cold, hard science.

If I had a quarter for every person that told me their speutered dog /cat was well muscled when the reality was their pet was over weight and rather blubbery, I could retire a wealthy person. That is coming from visual and hands on experience. I am not saying that this is your dog. Of course, there are always exceptions. I am not saying you, but many people really cannot distinguish between an overweight dog and a well muscled dog.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If I had a quarter for every person that told me their speutered dog /cat was well muscled when the reality was their pet was over weight and rather blubbery, I could retire a wealthy person. That is coming from visual and hands on experience. I am not saying that this is your dog. Of course, there are always exceptions. I am not saying you, but many people really cannot distinguish between an overweight dog and a well muscled dog.



Ha. Believe me, the mix was VERY blubbery. Getting weight off her once she started gaining was nigh impossible until we finally got her on thyroid meds. Then she dropped 10lbs in a month.

Completely agree about the effects of the loss of a major part of the endocrine system. I've asked every doctor I've seen since my early 20s to remove my useless bits that cause pain, misery and suffering for 4-8 days every frigging month. There's got to be more to their resistance than their belief I'll change my mind, especially after I tell them nothing is going to change my mind about renting out the space to a parasite or two.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

angelas said:


> Ha. Believe me, the mix was VERY blubbery. Getting weight off her once she started gaining was nigh impossible until we finally got her on thyroid meds. Then she dropped 10lbs in a month.
> 
> Completely agree about the effects of the loss of a major part of the endocrine system. I've asked every doctor I've seen since my early 20s to remove my useless bits that cause pain, misery and suffering for 4-8 days every frigging month. There's got to be more to their resistance than their belief I'll change my mind, especially after I tell them nothing is going to change my mind about renting out the space to a parasite or two.


Someday you will go through menopause then your biggest worry will be fat back and fat ankles.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Tulip said:


> WateryTart said:
> 
> 
> > If I had a 12-18mo male who was right on that cusp between show/breed quality and pet quality, I would be really hesitant to neuter him before we had a good idea of how he'd turn out. I could see taking a "wait and see" approach for a male, who wouldn't be going through seasons, pregnancy, and whelping.
> ...


No, I get that. But sometimes a dog who is sold strictly as a pet on a limited registration will grow up differently from what was predicted. Then the breeder and owner have a decision to make. That happened with a friend of mine. She was all set to neuter and then her breeder saw the puppy and evaluated him, and after some consideration and discussion, they opted to lift the limit on the registration and keep him intact in case they do decide to breed him in a couple of years. They are going to wait and see.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sabi was spayed at around 3, and the second I retired her she turned into a pudge. She was a big girl, seriously. Her front legs were as big around as my wrists. Her weight was an issue all her life, and when her health started to decline she just ballooned on me. 
My vet refused to spay or neuter large dogs before 2 years old. I miss that man.
I currently have an intact male who is pushing 14 years old, so he's staying intact, and a 5 year old intact female. No problem. But boy do I get the gears sometimes about why they aren't fixed. 

Intact males turn mean-still waiting for this to occur
He's at risk for testicular cancer, it could kill him-he's 13.5, that could kill him
He will fight with other dogs-nope. HE likes dogs, the girls are a different story.
And apparently his 'dangly things' scare people.

Sabi was a working girl, spaying made sense but it did nothing to improve her temper. She went from 'I hate boys when I'm in heat' to 'I hate boys'.

And the reasons for spaying Shadow are even more bizarre 
She will get pregnant-not on my watch!
She will live longer-don't even know were that comes from
She won't bond with you-she lives in my pocket now, I don't want her any more bonded
She will want puppies-no that was my spayed female
She will run away to find a mate-Really???
She might die-No she will die, at some point
She will come in heat-I don't even know why that's an issue, but yes she will


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

MAWL- My only other dog is a male, so I couldn't post him even though he is a GSD


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I had a very long message typed out but I accidentally deleted it . I'm very happy about that . I may try to retype it tomorrow.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tulip said:


> MAWL- My only other dog is a male, so I couldn't post him even though he is a GSD


Not sure what that means. But I would love to see pictures of people's GSDs with their sex (the dog ), age, height, weight, intact or speutered, and if speutered, at what age, listed, hopefully with at least one somewhat adult stacked picture. A nice adult head shot would be great too.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Tulip said:


> I had a very long message typed out but I accidentally deleted it . I'm very happy about that . I may try to retype it tomorrow.


LOL ,if you use Chrome or FireFox ... add the Lazarus (Form Save) add on! I have been using it for years! I don't type on forums without it! 

Lazarus - Bring Your Form & Browser Data Back From The Dead


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> To me they are, if it is done routinely without giving it any thought. It is my personal opinion. I am not against neutering for medical reasons. My first dog had a persistent foreskin infection that actually made the house smell and the walls dirty. After giving it a lot of thought I had him neutered when he was 4 years old and he never had that problem again. Even though I would not choose to have a Pit, but if it happened to be the case, that dog would be neutered at 9 months of age because of the breed's history and to lessen the possibility of DA. Please let's not go into the pit issues now; it was just meant as an example.












Throw them under the bus and walk away ... American Band Dawg derivative thereof. Just being a PIA.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

I'm normally anti-neuter

But my Dog has 2 undescended testicles I really worry about Testicular Torsion [no so much the cancer]

And its really throwing me for a pickle.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Here's mine. Does he look neutered?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I have only had one male and I had him neutered at 2-not sure what the big deal is about people deciding to neuter


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I confess I did not read everything here. To me, the science is still young in this area but dog people tend to jump hard on one wagon or the other. My concern is that on this forum when someone asks a question about neutering spaying, the large percentage of comments is on the don't do it or don't do it until 24 months wagon. My concern is that most people do not want or can't or don't care about the extra training or extra vigilance required to manage an unaltered dog. That is fine if you are careful. Lets remember that shelters are still full of dogs and if you look at craigslist you will still read about "oops breedings" constantly. 

I start with the assumptions that people do not want to be that vigilant. Guess I'm saying it is a tradeoff and unwanted pets are still a huge problem. All my dogs have been altered and all have made it to 12, 13, 14 years old.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

> Lets remember that shelters are still full of dogs and if you look at craigslist you will still read about "oops breedings" constantly.


 Exactly, for the average person I think it's better for all parties to spay/neuter... There's plenty of folks who can't manage their own fertility or even understand how it works, I can't imagine that they'll be on top of their dog's mating habits.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dotbat215 said:


> Exactly, for the average person I think it's better for all parties to spay/neuter... There's plenty of folks who can't manage their own fertility or even understand how it works, I can't imagine that they'll be on top of their dog's mating habits.


Our high kill shelters are pretty much empty. The last time I checked a month or so ago, the one shelter which also contracts with the city for strays, had seven Pit Bulls. That's all.

They do bring dogs from other shelters in by private car, trucking and even flying them in. They don't do it often enough, I guess the price is cost prohibitive. 

The bottomline of my message, unless you want a Pit Bull, a Pit Bull mix, or a very old Chihuahua, there is a shortage of shelter dogs where I live, so an "oops" litter would be a blessing. 

On the other hand, if the "oops" litter would happen between your own two German Shepherds, that would also be a boon. "Designer" crossbreeds, i.e, Lhasa Apso/Chihuahua, Pomeranian/Chihuahua types are selling for literally hundreds of dollars and large breed dogs, pedigree or mixed, are a scarce commodity.

Personally, I would just as soon own a German Shepherd / Great Pyrenees mix, or a GSD / Collie mix, or Great Dane / Rott mix or a host of other similar combinations but they just can't be had in this area. Once again, an "oops" litter is not the worst thing in the world that can happen, depending on where one lives.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Most experienced people can spot a speutered animal at a distance.


Easy to say but hard to do, i would think.

I like how you declined to say whether the photos were of neutered/spayed or intact.

I'd love to see you put your opinions to the visual test. 

Regarding body weigh, my girl is fat and she is not spayed, lol. Granted she is bull mastiff mix.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Easy to say but hard to do, i would think.
> 
> I like how you declined to say whether the photos were of neutered/spayed or intact.
> 
> ...


Where did I ever say that I could, or would, determine from a photo whether a dog was speutered or not? Since I never said that, why would you, or anybody else, expect me to? Does anybody ever read what somebody actually posts and take the time to comprehend the post before responding?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

DutchKarin said:


> I confess I did not read everything here. To me, the science is still young in this area but dog people tend to jump hard on one wagon or the other. My concern is that on this forum when someone asks a question about neutering spaying, the large percentage of comments is on the don't do it or don't do it until 24 months wagon. My concern is that most people do not want or can't or don't care about the extra training or extra vigilance required to manage an unaltered dog. That is fine if you are careful. Lets remember that shelters are still full of dogs and if you look at craigslist you will - still read about "oops breedings" constantly.
> 
> I start with the assumptions that people do not want to be that vigilant. Guess I'm saying it is a tradeoff and unwanted pets are still a huge problem. All my dogs have been altered and all have made it to 12, 13, 14 years old.


:thumbup:
Mine also -including the cats, all spayed or neutered and lived to 12-19.

I also noticed the health benefits of early spaying and neutering are overlooked on many forum comments. If a female dog is spayed before her first heat cycle she will not get breast cancer. There is a heartbreaking thread now on a 3 year-old female dog whose breast cancer has gone to the lymph nodes. A male dog that is neutered will not get prostrate cancer. My Sting's sire died of prostrate cancer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Early spay will only reduce the chances of a dog or cat getting breast cancer, not eliminate it.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html

My neutered male dog did get prostrate cancer.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You did say 

Mine are working line..said



> Most experienced people can spot a speutered animal at a distance.


And you sound experienced in your opinions on spay/neuter. 

So I presumed you'd relish the challenge to prove your point, whether or not there is a visual difference between intact and altered animals.

Anyways carry on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> You did say
> 
> Mine are working line..said
> 
> ...


Yes, I did say that most experienced people can spot a neutered animal at a distance and I stand by my statement.

What made you assume I was an experienced person?

What made you assume that a picture is a good substitute for viewing the real dog and also having the ability to watch its behavior?

Why would you assume I would relish a challenge? 

Why would you assume that I have a need to prove any point?

It appears that you make an awful lot of assumptions. Maybe your time would be better spent fact finding so you would not have to assume so much.


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

Like most topics, I think we have a bit of scope-creep here. Really we're jumping between "spay/neuter AT ALL" and "early spay/neuter." 

It should be considered that the general public would not be capable of having more than 1 dog per home (generally speaking!) if there wasn't spaying/neutering, and although MAWL does not have an over-population problem in their area, I think we can agree that overpopulation is a significant issue in most areas. It's my opinion that the general public is ill-equipped to handle pack pecking order, competition over food/toys, or keeping males and females separate to prevent oops litters. 

If we're voting, I am pro-choice when it comes to the spay/neuter debate. Do what you feel is best for your situation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

joneser said:


> Like most topics, I think we have a bit of scope-creep here. Really we're jumping between "spay/neuter AT ALL" and "early spay/neuter."
> 
> It should be considered that the general public would not be capable of having more than 1 dog per home (generally speaking!) if there wasn't spaying/neutering, and although MAWL does not have an over-population problem in their area, I think we can agree that overpopulation is a significant issue in most areas.* It's my opinion that the general public is ill-equipped to handle pack pecking order, competition over food/toys,* or keeping males and females separate to prevent oops litters.
> 
> If we're voting, I am pro-choice when it comes to the spay/neuter debate. Do what you feel is best for your situation.


Do you think that pack order and resource guarding is hormone driven?


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, I did say that most experienced people can spot a neutered animal at a distance and I stand by my statement.
> 
> *What made you assume I was an experienced person?*
> 
> ...


well since the question was raised...statistically speaking, you've posted 23.1% of the posts on this thread. 2nd place goes to waterytart with 9.3%. In comparison, the OP has only posted 3.7%, which does include her initial posting. One _could_ logically draw the conclusion that you ARE experienced, based on your response rate. The alternative is that your response rate is high on a topic you know little about...and that would be a bummer because people come to this forum to learn. You have, arguably, positioned yourself as someone who knows quite a lot about spay and neutering in regards to physical and behavioral characteristics of dogs. But that's just one person's conclusion, based on the data.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> What state are in you in??? I have never hear of any requirements like that??
> 
> Not saying there aren't any just strikes me as a "violation" of something???


One of the many PC areas where intact animals are treated almost like a criminal offense. 

https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/131101a.aspx

From this article:
The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is one of the most widely recognized humane organizations working to remedy this crisis, in part by advocating for the neutering of all cats and dogs, except those that are part of a responsible breeding program or for which neutering isn’t medically viable.

Moreover, the ASPCA supports neutering animals as soon as they reach 2 months of age and weigh 2 pounds. The AVMA likewise endorses pediatric or “early-age” spay and neuter to manage dog and cat overpopulation, and advises veterinarians to use their best judgment in deciding at what age the surgery should be performed


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

joneser said:


> well since the question was raised...statistically speaking, you've posted 23.1% of the posts on this thread. 2nd place goes to waterytart with 9.3%. In comparison, the OP has only posted 3.7%, which does include her initial posting. One _could_ logically draw the conclusion that you ARE experienced, based on your response rate. The alternative is that your response rate is high on a topic you know little about...and that would be a bummer because people come to this forum to learn. You have, arguably, positioned yourself as someone who knows quite a lot about spay and neutering in regards to physical and behavioral characteristics of dogs. But that's just one person's conclusion, based on the data.


I think the logical conclusion is that 1) I ask a lot of questions, and 2) that many people like to put words in my mouth that were never posted by me and target my comments as if the message I deliver is a personal opinion and not findings of studies and that I feel compelled to clarify the falsehoods of which I am being personally accused. Maybe some people should take exception to the studies and not the messenger. If you actually read and understood my comments, rather than counted them, that should be quite apparent.

I do not understand your point about the FACT that speutering has physical and behavioral ramifications, that many posters on here have concurred with the the facts, why you targeted only my comments as possibly false and not that of others who present the same facts, and why that is not a learning experience but something that would lead you to believe that only one messenger bearing the same message as others would be a bummer? Can you explain?

My personal opinion is that a person that has nothing better to do than to keep tabs on this speuter thread on how many posts a person makes and to make graphs has too time on their hands that would be better spent volunteering at a shelter, but that is just my OPINION not supported by any scientific study.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I was looking at a job in Santa Cruz, CA. They have mandatory spay-neuter at 9 months of age for all dogs. With really very few exceptions.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks for that link, LuvShepherds. The numbers on CCL tears in intact vs. neutered dogs is striking, and that can be a devastating injury, both emotionally and financially- that risk alone is reason not to neuter, in my opinion.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> What made you assume I was an experienced person?


You sound experienced, but maybe bit stuck in your ways. you seem to have viewed many dogs and given this topic much thought and research. You take an authoritative tone when ever possible, on subjects which you seem passionate about.

This is not just a random post. There is deep reasoning going on, leading me to think you are experienced in speutering.



> Picking out males don't need to go as far as looking between the legs, and for me, *it rarely does.* It often can be leg length, lack of tuck up, lack of muscle tone, lack of secondary masculine characteristics (which, even if dog is adult, will diminish with neutering), weight distribution, weight composition, and even behavioral characteristics. Same can be said about females. A simple look on a male upon closer inspection will confirm my suspicions as will a simple asking an owner for confirmation for females. Heck, many times just the way my dogs act and their dogs act toward each other will provide confirmation. I know that speutered dogs tend to have slightly longer coats and sometimes a different texture, but that is not something I easily notice while I do know groomers that can easily spot this, especially in females, and there is a condition known as spay bitch coat too. It can occur in males as well, but not as often as in females, and not all dogs develop it.
> 
> There is no escaping it. It is science, biology, the function of hormones is physical, emotional and behavioral. Even physics comes into play with one law stating: For each and every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You can't remove all those hormones and not have such an integral component of animal life that plays a key role in how they appear and act, and not have it impact those very same qualities when removed. People just can't say it ain't so and dismiss the cold, hard science.
> 
> If I had a quarter for every person that told me their speutered dog /cat was well muscled when the reality was their pet was over weight and rather blubbery, I could retire a wealthy person. That is coming from visual and hands on experience. I am not saying that this is your dog. Of course, there are always exceptions. I am not saying you, but many people really cannot distinguish between an overweight dog and a well muscled dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The more we know, the more we need to know. We can only do our own individual research and come to our own conclusions. I feel it is a very personal choice because the jury's still out on many of these issues. It will for now, be our best judgment and regardless of what our dogs actually succumb to, we will always hope we dodged some bullets along the way.

I never stopped eating butter or center cut bacon. Apparently they're both "ok" in moderation again.....more than two eggs a week too. Definitely a renegade to socially acceptable belief systems. I'm glad this is America, I can get away with these defiant acts.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> What made you assume that a picture is a good substitute for viewing the real dog and also having the ability to watch its behavior?


You did say "Most experienced people can spot a speutered animal *at a distance.*, leading me to assume, that a photo would suffice. The photos which you declined to identify were close ups. In your statement you didn't say behavior had anything to do with it.



> Most experienced people can *spot *a speutered animal at a distance.


Using the word spot, you are inferring that an experienced person also can identify a speutered animal quickly. Spotting is not examining. Spotting is seeing and judging immediately, suggesting there is something distinctive about all speutered animals, which experts can recognize.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Why would you assume I would relish a challenge?


Well you don't back done from arguments, and have strong opinions and these are powerfully projected in your posts. Also, I'd like to test your abilities and see if you can really predict whether a dog is neutered or not.

I was disappointed you didn't at least try, esp considering your declaration that 'experienced' people can predict whether a dog is altered or not.

I do wonder can people have this ability. With some dogs I have a feeling with others I can't tell if altered or not.



> Why would you assume that I have a need to prove any point?


You do not let any point slide and always argue with others to prove your point and make sure you always have the last word.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Well you don't back done from arguments, and have strong opinions and these are powerfully projected in your posts. Also, I'd like to test your abilities and see if you can really predict whether a dog is neutered or not.
> 
> I do wonder can people have this ability. With some dogs I have a feeling with others I can't tell if altered or not.


I don't back down from accusations would be the more accurate statement although I don't hesitate to present well documented facts to the table. I guess it depends on your definition of an argument.

I tend more to presenting facts that are well established in science, statistics, studies, and generally accepted knowledge. I am very flattered that so many view me as some kind of scientific genius that I actually am not, I am merely the vehicle that gets the message out for those who are qualified.

If you are sincere in any person's abilities to determine whether a dog is speutered or not, and at what age, there is no better lesson than to take yourself to dog parks and other events where there will be plenty of dogs, or even cats, observe them and talk with the owners. Watch the dogs interact. There is nothing like first hand experience. Do this for an extended period of time at various locations with various dogs. Then do come back and post about your experience, I would love to hear about your experience. 

I agree that with some dogs it would be difficult to tell, there are always exceptions and small dogs would have smaller deviations, and it would be more difficult to determine on a longhaired dog, but I am sure there are many experienced people that would have no problem even in those situations, especially groomers.

I frequently do let points slide, and I don't need the last word. I walked away from this thread too many times. The problem is the personal call outs, the false accusations, what would you do if I either accused you of saying something you never said, or severely misinterpreted something you posted?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> what would you do if I either accused you of saying something you never said, or severely misinterpreted something you posted?


I would forever hold a grudge. 



> Most experienced people can spot a speutered animal at a distance.


I couldn't ignore this statement. I don't think it is true. You say you bring facts to the table, but this is a declaration which is false and you can't back it up with any proof or evidence. It is simply your opinion, but you didn't state that.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Oh so none of these experts who can tell at a distance if a dog is neutered are on this board? Too bad, I really was curious about my dog.


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## MagicHorse (Feb 3, 2016)

I posted on the 1st page that when I got my dog, he had to be neutered in order to license him. At the time, I lived in Los Angeles County, & the other poster also has a CA location listed so maybe it's a CA thing??? Do any of you know of any places, other than CA, that require this?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I would forever hold a grudge.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't ignore this statement. I don't think it is true. You say you bring facts to the table, but this is a declaration which is false and you can't back it up with any proof or evidence. It is simply your opinion, but you didn't state that.


Just because many of the people that you know lack the ability to recognize differences in weight distribution/composition, secondary sex characteristics, etc., on speutered dogs vs intact dogs when they see them does not make my statement concerning the many experienced people that I know untrue. It only clarifies that the people you know don't share the abilities that the people that I know do. Hence, my statement is a declaration that is true. I never said I think they can do this, which would be an opinion, but I said that they actually can do this which is a declaration that is true that is based on the science of how hormones impact those very characteristics. Just because you and the people you know can't recognize whether a dog is eight weeks pregnant or not while other experienced people can recognize the pregnancy the majority of the time, does not make the dog not pregnant, it merely makes the people you know lack the ability to make the determination.

Regarding holding grudges, I think some people on this forum should take a good look in the mirror. It is not me that follows them and argues, badgers and debates every comment they make, but it is quite transparent that there are a handful on here that almost make a career of following my posts just so they can negate everything I say based on their opinions. Perhaps you should suggest that they let the grudge go.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MayzieGSD said:


> Oh so none of these experts who can tell at a distance if a dog is neutered are on this board? Too bad, I really was curious about my dog.


Can I take this to mean that a show judge cannot tell the difference between one dog to another when judging a class based on appearances alone, especially when you consider that none of those dogs have had their physique altering hormones tampered with? How do you think they pick the winner? Visuals perhaps? They all look alike to me in a show ring except for colors, but then again, I am not a showline person.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I do hold a grudge and I can't be quiet anymore. I will never forget that MAWL said that Midnite was not a pure bred GSD and something to the effect that he has a funny head. MAWL, all you do is read and spew out things you read, which is fine, but just because you read it and feel the way you do about certain things does not mean everyone else does. It also doesn't mean that you are better then anyone else which comes across in every post you make. You draw out people to argue with you because you strike a nerve and it's not only with one person but several. We get that you don't like pit bulls, you keep your dogs intact, you take your dogs to dog parks, yes we get it, but there are people and a lot of people that love pit bulls, fix their animals and find dog parks dangerous. You don't state your opinions as opinions but as fact and fact for you is not for everyone else. You might very well be educated in all these areas and I have found some of your responses helpful, I lost all faith when you said what you said about Midnite and for the life of me I can't understand how someone that can help and educate does not recognize a GSD when it's obvious? Well unless you were just trying to be hurtful and spiteful?


This is Midnite--he is a GSD and he does not have a funny head


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I do hold a grudge and I can't be quiet anymore. I will never forget that MAWL said that Midnite was not a pure bred GSD and something to the effect that he has a funny head. MAWL, all you do is read and spew out things you read, which is fine, but just because you read it and feel the way you do about certain things does not mean everyone else does. It also doesn't mean that you are better then anyone else which comes across in every post you make. You draw out people to argue with you because you strike a nerve and it's not only with one person but several. We get that you don't like pit bulls, you keep your dogs intact, you take your dogs to dog parks, yes we get it, but there are people and a lot of people that love pit bulls, fix their animals and find dog parks dangerous. You don't state your opinions as opinions but as fact and fact for you is not for everyone else. You might very well be educated in all these areas and I have found some of your responses helpful, I lost all faith when you said what you said about Midnite and for the life of me I can't understand how someone that can help and educate does not recognize a GSD when it's obvious? Well unless you were just trying to be hurtful and spiteful?
> 
> 
> This is Midnite--he is a GSD and he does not have a funny head


I said your dog Midnite looks like he is mixed breed to me. I am entitled to my own opinion on whether a dog of unknown heritage looks purebred to me or not. Hold your grudge if you will, that is your business. Sometimes the truth hurts.

I read scientific data and studies and post the findings and your grudge with science is??? I post my personal experiences and your problem with my life is???? I never said anybody had to feel the same way that I do. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, even myself although you, and others like you have determined that I am not, but the bottom line is we all have to deal with the same facts.

Why is it that I strike a nerve with some people? Is it because what I post hits too close to home like with you posting the last few weeks a thousand and one times how neutering changed your dog's behavior yet on this thread, you decided to post that it did not. Is the nerve I struck one of personal integrity or did the nerve I strike was the one of you using two sets of your own facts depending on what was convenient for what you want to post?

I get that you love Pit Bulls, speuter all your animals, and find dog parks dangerous, yes I get it, that you and some other members feel the same, but there are a lot of people on here that do not like Pit Bulls, keep their dogs intact, and go to dog parks. Yes we get it, but what makes you so right and me so wrong that I am not entitled to post my experiences and supporting documentation but you can? Why am I wrong for doing the exact same thing you are doing?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I said your dog Midnite looks like he is mixed breed to me. I am entitled to my own opinion on whether a dog of unknown heritage looks purebred to me or not. Hold your grudge if you will, that is your business. Sometimes the truth hurts.
> 
> I read scientific data and studies and post the findings and your grudge with science is??? I post my personal experiences and your problem with my life is???? I never said anybody had to feel the same way that I do. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, even myself although you, and others like you have determined that I am not, but the bottom line is we all have to deal with the same facts.
> 
> ...


It's the way you post, period. I read the same studies you read, but I've had the added bonus of working in the field. Not all the studies make sense because that is not what you see in the field, hands on. 

What truth? Your opinion that he has a funny head? That don't hurt, that makes me down right angry because it was said to be mean, nothing more, nothing less. 

Please don't put words in my mouth. Yes I had my dog neutered and yes he has become less aggressive towards the other dogs. So what's your point? I'm happy he is less aggressive, but it doesn't matter if he stayed the way he was or not, because he isn't going anywhere. I'm just letting people know that neutering can make a difference with aggressive behavior as studies show it happens this way about 60% of the time. Or didn't you read that study? Probably not because its not what you want to learn about. 

It's ok to state your opinion, that is what a forum is for, but you argue it to death and will keep arguing until people agree or just ignore you. State your opinion and move on. It's really simple if you don't want to start problems or cause drama.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think this is ENOUGH of the bickering, Stay on topic, or this whole thread will be shut down. If I see one more nit picking post it's done. 

llombardo, personally I think your dog does look like a purebred shepherd and he has a rather nice head


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> It's the way you post, period. I read the same studies you read, but I've had the added bonus of working in the field. Not all the studies make sense because that is not what you see in the field, hands on.
> 
> What truth? Your opinion that he has a funny head? That don't hurt, that makes me down right angry because it was said to be mean, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you don't like how I post, but it simply is what it is. Perhaps the ignore button because the chances of me changing my personality to suit you or anybody else is not likely.

I don't recall ever saying your dog has a "funny head" and find it highly unlikely that I would make such a comment, but if I did, for that I will apologize. But sorry, no, not sorry, I do see Chow in the confirmation and coat. But that is my opinion, does not make it true, but with an unknown heritage, you can't disprove it either.

Okay, so now you are saying that your dog became less aggressive with other dogs when you got him neutered. Why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of saying there were no behavioral differences? What was you intention of making contradictory statements?

It doesn't matter what studies I have read, what matters is if my posts have cohesion, and agree with each other, not saying one thing in one thread and another in a different thread or even the same one and that they are based on valid studies and my life experiences or those of people I personally know and trust. It should not matter whether they agree with what somebody else wants to believe, it should matter that the studies are scientifically based and that the experiences are real.

I do state my opinion and move on, as I have said so many times before, even on this thread, people keep calling me out, like MadLab, like you, and several others. If you don't want to hear my opinion ad nauseam, then stop addressing my comments.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry admin, I just saw your post now.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> This is Midnite--he is a GSD and he does not have a funny head


 Midnight should meet Bud. I get told all the time that Buds head is funny, or that he must be a mix. I KNOW he's purebred. I handled both his parents and worked for his breeder.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can I take this to mean that a show judge cannot tell the difference between one dog to another when judging a class based on appearances alone, especially when you consider that none of those dogs have had their physique altering hormones tampered with? How do you think they pick the winner? Visuals perhaps? They all look alike to me in a show ring except for colors, but then again, I am not a showline person.


Where did I say that? All I wanted to know was if my dog looked neutered... I seriously wanted to know.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Midnight should meet Bud. I get told all the time that Buds head is funny, or that he must be a mix. I KNOW he's purebred. I handled both his parents and worked for his breeder.


How old is Bud?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apexk9 said:


> I'm normally anti-neuter
> 
> But my Dog has 2 undescended testicles I really worry about Testicular Torsion [no so much the cancer]
> 
> And its really throwing me for a pickle.


Oh an opportunity to actually be "helpful" here?? 

In "this" situation I'd say whatever is best for the dog health wise. I have no idea myself but that is how I would view it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> One of the many PC areas where intact animals are treated almost like a criminal offense.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/131101a.aspx
> 
> ...


Thanks! I saw the ASPCA's work at a rescue day event for "Boxers and Buddies."

THe worst behaved animals out of all the groups there! I was pretty horrified myself, all our Boxers" were well behave doggies.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uh wow??? I never considered "funny looking" as fighting words?? I'll make note of that for the future. 


Back on point and the neutering and behavioural changes thing particular in regards to "aggression." Usually in my "opinion" that is grasped at as an answer for "poor" management practices (whatever they my be) I could take a pretty good guest but besides the point.

I base that on my first hand experience with my 7 month old (at the time) Foster/Rescue OS Wl GSD. I had zero "pack Issues" with him for seven months and then .. one day it was "freaking on!!!" 









Kinda like ... *"How you like me now??"*


Clearly "neutering had "zero" impact on my dog's behaviour or size?? SO "magic bullet" solution's don't work for "some" of us. Not saying they can't bt I'm kind like "Show me" and yeah ... Rocky did! 

Worked out fine in the "long run." Just my two cents, others results my vary.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bottomline of my message, unless you want a Pit Bull, a Pit Bull mix, or a very old Chihuahua, there is a shortage of shelter dogs where I live, so an "oops" litter would be a blessing.
> 
> On the other hand, if the "oops" litter would happen between your own two German Shepherds, that would also be a boon. "Designer" crossbreeds, i.e, Lhasa Apso/Chihuahua, Pomeranian/Chihuahua types are selling for literally hundreds of dollars and large breed dogs, pedigree or mixed, are a scarce commodity.


Just because an "Oops" litter is easy to give away as puppies or lucrative to the breeder as a commodity doesn't in any way, shape or form mean that it is a good thing or something to be encouraged.
Sheilah


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

sit said:


> Just because an "Oops" litter is easy to give away as puppies or lucrative to the breeder as a commodity doesn't in any way, shape or form mean that it is a good thing or something to be encouraged.
> Sheilah


I am not encouraging it, I am only stating it is not the worst thing that can happen in an area experiencing a shortage of dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> How old is Bud?


Bud is know 13.5 and not neutered. In that picture I think he was 11. It was the summer before Sabi died, so he would have been 11 that August.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Late to the party here, but I neutered Kopper because I do a lot with him off-leash. I hike and trail ride out in the country where not everyone spays/neuters and I don't want to run the risk of him getting enticed by some farmer's bitch in heat.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

"Not sure what that means. But I would love to see pictures of people's GSDs with their sex (the dog ), age, height, weight, intact or speutered, and if speutered, at what age, listed, hopefully with at least one somewhat adult stacked picture. A nice adult head shot would be great too."

MAWL- I mentioned this because of the whole "having you tell us whether or not our girls are spayed based on physical appearance" thing. Speaking of, one of the things that was in the post I had accidentally deleted, was that I wanted to let you know that I also was not trying to personally attack you or anything in doing that, I was just generally curious if you could tell! I thought it was interesting. I may post my GSD with those facts listed later


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

"LOL ,if you use Chrome or FireFox ... add the Lazarus (Form Save) add on! I have been using it for years! I don't type on forums without it!"

Chip- the reason this happened is because I typed it out on my phone.... stupid lol. But that does sound like a great add-on! I'll probably get it anyways when I get back on my computer, since I use Chrome


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Personally, I still wouldn't say that an "oops" litter would be considered "not bad" for an area experiencing a shortage of dogs. There are plenty of dogs further from the area either in shelters or from reputable breeders. If someone is getting a dog, they should be okay with making an 1+ hr long trip to get the dog. My personal opinion, at least. I agree with what some people said earlier about how spaying/neutering is generally better for most people, solely because they aren't as vigilant or experienced enough to own an intact dog. If you are super careful about keeping an eye on your intact dog, making sure s/he can't get out/run away, maybe even taking him/her on trips with you to avoid potential accidents due to negligence of a caretaker, doing proper training, etc., then I have no problem with that person keeping their dog intact. It's their choice. However, if you are the "average" dog owner whose dog may occasionally get out/run away, you take trips and leave the dog behind with a caretaker, or don't have the time/experience for more intense training, then I would advocate for that person to spay/neuter because of overpopulation issues.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tulip said:


> "LOL ,if you use Chrome or FireFox ... add the Lazarus (Form Save) add on! I have been using it for years! I don't type on forums without it!"
> 
> Chip- the reason this happened is because I typed it out on my phone.... stupid lol. But that does sound like a great add-on! I'll probably get it anyways when I get back on my computer, since I use Chrome


I just wasn't sure the way it was phrased. 

You should start a thread posting pictures of your girls and stats. There seems to be quite a bit of interest in learning from many people on this thread. I think it would interesting as a learning experience.

Just remember that I said I know people who can tell by looking at the dog and by behavior. I am sure that it can sometimes be done from pictures but I am not aware of anybody that does it routinely that way because many traits would not be easily detectable from pics, at least I would not think so.

I guess you can compare it to a judge in a dog show, he can detect minute structural, physical, and behavioral traits based on the dogs in the ring in front of him. I guess his task would be much harder if he had to do it from pictures. 

Yet one can still critique a dog to a degree from pictures.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

My Yorkie is my only girl, my GSD is a boy . Due to a mix of following this post as well as being in AP Stats, this kind of makes me want to conduct a study on the effects of early/late/neutering in general and effects of keeping intact. Next time I have some free time at work, I'll try to go through the computer and collect some data on some of our boarders. Might be a while before I get the chance to though, considering it is spring break here right now and we are super busy lol!! Would be very interesting to compare though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tulip said:


> My Yorkie is my only girl, my GSD is a boy . Due to a mix of following this post as well as being in AP Stats, this kind of makes me want to conduct a study on the effects of early/late/neutering in general and effects of keeping intact. Next time I have some free time at work, I'll try to go through the computer and collect some data on some of our boarders. Might be a while before I get the chance to though, considering it is spring break here right now and we are super busy lol!! Would be very interesting to compare though.


I think that thread would have one of the largest followings this forum has ever seen that would go on for years. I have never seen, or heard, of any such undertaking before. 

Maybe you can call it something like "Intact or Speutered, and if speutered, at what age?" 

Let me know when you go to tackle it and I will help you with it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> sit said:
> 
> 
> > Just because an "Oops" litter is easy to give away as puppies or lucrative to the breeder as a commodity doesn't in any way, shape or form mean that it is a good thing or something to be encouraged.
> ...


We're condoning oops litters to fill more shelters? That's one good reason to leave your dogs intact..Wow..

But I bet they're healthier because they're intact and not "spuetered", even though almost any "oops" litter wouldn't be health tested..right..


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GatorDog said:


> We're condoning oops litters to fill more shelters? That's one good reason to leave your dogs intact..Wow..
> 
> But I bet they're healthier because they're intact and not "spuetered", even though almost any "oops" litter wouldn't be health tested..right..


My comment was meant to say that the world won't go to **** in a handbasket because somebody had an oops litter. 

It happens even to those who have health tested and titled their dogs. 

Not everybody views neutering a dog to prevent oops litters as responsible dog ownership either.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Not sure exactly what things I should look for for possible correlation between spaying/neutering, spaying/neutering early, and leaving intact... I was thinking about behavior things like marking indoors and aggression/excessive dominance and health things like bone cancer, HD, joint disorders, repro organ cancer...?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers

UC Davis records study and Retreiver/Lab study.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Everybody seems so focused on cancers with dogs that are intact or fixed. If we look at this, dogs in both categories are coming up with cancer at alarming rates. It's way more the spaying/neutering or keeping intact. There are other factors such as vaccinations, diet, and environment. If a study wants to hold any merit, then do a study that includes all of these factors. I'd go with vaccinations, then diet then spaying/neutering as cancer causing, in that order. There is a much bigger picture and something that has been getting progressively worse over the last 10-15 yrs. Dogs used to live 12-15 yrs back in the day. What is different? 20 yrs ago it was split on intact versus not intact, most people vaccinated for rabies only(lots of people didn't even do that), there was no heartworm medication, topical flea stuff, etc. dog food was simple and not many brands around. Yet dogs survived and lived full lives. You never had to give the dogs 10 different shots to go to classes, board, etc. They know there is a problem but they focus on one thing and not the whole picture. Dog food companies go the cheap route for ingredients, new dog related diseases are popping up everywhere, vets still push yearly vaccines. It's all about the almighty dollar with lots of these things. 


Canine cancer causes


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Tulip said:


> Not sure exactly what things I should look for for possible correlation between spaying/neutering, spaying/neutering early, and leaving intact... I was thinking about behavior things like marking indoors and aggression/excessive dominance and health things like bone cancer, HD, joint disorders, repro organ cancer...?


That's just it, you have to pick what you might have to battle down the road. You keep a dog intact them years down the road you have a dog not able to have surgery or it don't work. You do it early and then you have to worry about hip and joint issues(which I would take anyday over cancer). Then you have the middle of the road which is 18-24 months or so, this helps with lessening hip Dysplasia and other cancers. In the end no matter what the dog ends up in cancer. It's a debate that is for sure, but I'm not sure anything can be done to avoid cancer by keeping a dog intact or not. The only thing that is certain is spaying a female eliminates pyo. That is the only thing that they can say for sure.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

"Everybody seems so focused on cancers with dogs that are intact or fixed. If we look at this, dogs in both categories are coming up with cancer at alarming rates. It's way more the spaying/neutering or keeping intact. There are other factors such as vaccinations, diet, and environment. If a study wants to hold any merit, then do a study that includes all of these factors. I'd go with vaccinations, then diet then spaying/neutering as cancer causing, in that order. There is a much bigger picture and something that has been getting progressively worse over the last 10-15 yrs. Dogs used to live 12-15 yrs back in the day. What is different? 20 yrs ago it was split on intact versus not intact, most people vaccinated for rabies only(lots of people didn't even do that), there was no heartworm medication, topical flea stuff, etc. dog food was simple and not many brands around. Yet dogs survived and lived full lives. You never had to give the dogs 10 different shots to go to classes, board, etc. They know there is a problem but they focus on one thing and not the whole picture. Dog food companies go the cheap route for ingredients, new dog related diseases are popping up everywhere, vets still push yearly vaccines. It's all about the almighty dollar with lots of these things."

I definitely agree with this. I was just considering the spay/neuter thing as one topic to focus on right now. Would be interesting to look at those other factors as well at some point, but not at the same time. Obviously I don't have the means to conduct an actual experiment where I can account for all these things, so I'll have to do with what I have. I just think it'd be interesting to study specifically the spay/neuter aspect right now, especially because it is such a hot topic and I myself am not completely on one side or the other.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Tulip said:


> "Everybody seems so focused on cancers with dogs that are intact or fixed. If we look at this, dogs in both categories are coming up with cancer at alarming rates. It's way more the spaying/neutering or keeping intact. There are other factors such as vaccinations, diet, and environment. If a study wants to hold any merit, then do a study that includes all of these factors. I'd go with vaccinations, then diet then spaying/neutering as cancer causing, in that order. There is a much bigger picture and something that has been getting progressively worse over the last 10-15 yrs. Dogs used to live 12-15 yrs back in the day. What is different? 20 yrs ago it was split on intact versus not intact, most people vaccinated for rabies only(lots of people didn't even do that), there was no heartworm medication, topical flea stuff, etc. dog food was simple and not many brands around. Yet dogs survived and lived full lives. You never had to give the dogs 10 different shots to go to classes, board, etc. They know there is a problem but they focus on one thing and not the whole picture. Dog food companies go the cheap route for ingredients, new dog related diseases are popping up everywhere, vets still push yearly vaccines. It's all about the almighty dollar with lots of these things."
> 
> I definitely agree with this. I was just considering the spay/neuter thing as one topic to focus on right now. Would be interesting to look at those other factors as well at some point, but not at the same time. Obviously I don't have the means to conduct an actual experiment where I can account for all these things, so I'll have to do with what I have. I just think it'd be interesting to study specifically the spay/neuter aspect right now, especially because it is such a hot topic and I myself am not completely on one side or the other.



You can look into each one individually at some point, but it's more then just one of the other. It's a combination.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> There are other factors such as vaccinations, diet, and environment.


This is so true.... And I think the environment holds the biggest factor!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

back to the "why" in the OP -- (have to confess I didn't go through all 16 pages of this to see if someone mentioned it) == in addition to the pressure from many directions to s/n, perhaps they are also tired of the pressure to breed or inquiries about breeding. People like the looks of your dog and hop to breeding - with one of theirs or with just the idea of getting a puppy from a litter. More final to say "no chance"


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Tulip - what did you find not worthy in the study from UC Davis? It included the 3 most common structural disorders and the three most common cancers. It is not exclusive of dogs being neutered at a young age. There were over a thousand dogs in the study. Do you see the flaws in the data collection method that you would discount the information?

I rely on information that is documented and available. I have found UC Davis to be "THE" leader in dog research and there are no more thorough sources that I know of. I have a hard time going with hunches and guesses when data like this is presented.

It's almost funny - time after time - I have seen study results posted and of course promptly discounted by posters - because it does not tell them what they want to hear. A hunch and a shift to something they cannot control always gets the blame. Environment = strawman.... for bad genetic bloodlines and for everything WE chose to do to our dog - from improper feeding to medications containing known cancer causing ingredients. "Environment" displaces bad choices as a term in many situations. 

This study is why I chose not to spay. The hormones do not stop giving or being of any use when growth stops. In my particular situation, my pup may have a genetic predisposition to develop HD - I want those hormones to stay in production as they are proven to help. Not specific to bone growth but to ligament and muscle support of the bone structure. It was not until I started looking at this particular problem - that I discovered the quandary over the neuter question and other illnesses that are apparently increasing risks of other problems. But, I'm glad I did. It was a very hard decision but I felt better informed to make that decision for this particular pup as a result. Studies aren't worthless.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The thing with studies is that they are done on specefic breeds prone to certain cancers(goldens and Rotts). No one mentions the lines and how genes are passed down. If it's prevalent in a breed, let's look at the breeding and/or breeders. What is being passed down generation to generation? There is a cancer test for dogs and it probably should be something that is done before breeding, it reads markers I believe. I'm looking into that now for all of my dogs. Hip Dysplasia is what it is. it's there or its not, whether the dog is fixed or not. Someone posted once that all dogs are born with normal but loose hips and Dysplasia is determined before they even leave their mom. The best thing to do for your dog is to have it xrayed and make a decision from there. I made the decision to have surgery on Robyn now instead of managing it, because it might not be manageable at 8 yrs old when and can't have a surgery. 

The other question is that there are all these studies but yet vets still push spay/neuter? Do they not read the studies? Do they not care? There is more there then over population as the reason. Next time I visit my vet I'm asking them this exact question. Maybe we all should and see what answered we get.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I wasn't trying to "discount" the UC Davis study. I just thought it would be an interesting thing to do. Also, as someone said, the study included only Goldens and Labs. At my clinic, we get a multitude of dog breeds from many different places (shelters, breeders, pet stores, etc.). I'm not saying my study would be BETTER, but I just think it would be interesting to have even more data from various sources.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I might be stating the obvious here, but just throwing it out that there doesn't appear to be a choice when you rescue, at least where I live. Both of my males came to me neutered.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Very true. Most, if not all, shelters and rescue organizations spay/neuter all animals before adopting them out. I have heard of a few that will let you adopt intact animals, but still require that you spay/neuter them within X amount of time. With these organizations in particular, I'm sure their main reason for doing this is for preventing "oops" litters and irresponsible breeding.

Another thing regarding my idea for conducting my own study, is that obviously this nothing "official" and I am by no means a professional, I just think it would be an interesting thing to do. More for myself than anyone else, but anyone would be welcome to read it as well if they would like to. Also, I dont think the UC Davis study included adverse health effects of dogs left intact, which I would like to include as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Tulip said:


> I wasn't trying to "discount" the UC Davis study. I just thought it would be an interesting thing to do. Also, as someone said, the study included only Goldens and Labs. At my clinic, we get a multitude of dog breeds from many different places (shelters, breeders, pet stores, etc.). I'm not saying my study would be BETTER, but I just think it would be interesting to have even more data from various sources.


This kind of study would be more well rounded. It needs to be bigger to get better answers.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> Not sure exactly what things I should look for for possible correlation between spaying/neutering, spaying/neutering early, and leaving intact... I was thinking about behavior things like marking indoors and aggression/excessive dominance and health things like bone cancer, HD, joint disorders, repro organ cancer...?


Don't forget musculoskeletal disorders - arthritis, bone fractures, osteoporosis, tendon and ligament injuries, sprains, strains, etc

Sex hormones play a major role in bone density and muscle mass through out the dog's entire life. 

There are tons of studies in humans showing low hormone levels leading to all sorts of problems like those.


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Everybody seems so focused on cancers with dogs that are intact or fixed. If we look at this, dogs in both categories are coming up with cancer at alarming rates. It's way more the spaying/neutering or keeping intact. There are other factors such as vaccinations, diet, and environment. If a study wants to hold any merit, then do a study that includes all of these factors. I'd go with vaccinations, then diet then spaying/neutering as cancer causing, in that order. There is a much bigger picture and something that has been getting progressively worse over the last 10-15 yrs. Dogs used to live 12-15 yrs back in the day. What is different? 20 yrs ago it was split on intact versus not intact, most people vaccinated for rabies only(lots of people didn't even do that), there was no heartworm medication, topical flea stuff, etc. dog food was simple and not many brands around. Yet dogs survived and lived full lives. You never had to give the dogs 10 different shots to go to classes, board, etc. They know there is a problem but they focus on one thing and not the whole picture. Dog food companies go the cheap route for ingredients, new dog related diseases are popping up everywhere, vets still push yearly vaccines. It's all about the almighty dollar with lots of these things.
> 
> 
> Canine cancer causes


Excellent points. So many factors to consider. I also appreciated the point about vets trying to prevent future breedings...I've heard several owners talk about having a litter or two because they think highly of their dog, but they're not necessarily focused on betterment of the breed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> The other question is that there are all these studies but yet vets still push spay/neuter? Do they not read the studies? Do they not care? There is more there then over population as the reason. Next time I visit my vet I'm asking them this exact question. Maybe we all should and see what answered we get


I guess for the same reason so many vets push for yearly vaccinations. Or push cereal and by product based dog foods. 

One thing I have noticed are the vets who do not advocate yearly vaccines and promote species appropriate diets tend to be on board with late spay/neuter or leaving the dog intact.


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## MagicHorse (Feb 3, 2016)

I have moved quite a bit so have had several different vets, then I worked in a high-end pet store in Beverly Hills which sent me to seminars & training for pet nutrition. I learned so much & I was furious to find out that many companies have an agreement/contract with various vets to recommend their products (even if they are not the best option for your dog). Of course this was after my dog was diagnosed with diabetes for several years & my vet (who came highly recommended by several people) put her on Science Diet. I wanted to go off on the vet since I thought I was doing the right thing by following his advice. Nope, they just wanted money in their pocket. In the end, my dog lived to be 16 years old. Being on insulin for 11 of those years. She was half Akita & half Husky & normally weighed about 70 pounds. I had her when she was about 8 weeks old. I wonder how long she would have lived if I knew more about dogs, nutrition esp., when I 1st got her. 

I would think the same thing with many vets and the spay/neuter issue. They get money right off the bat if they recommend you spay/neuter sooner. If the customer waits, you might have moved, or gotten rid of the dog, or ??? and then they don't get your money. Sometimes, I think you can find a vet that truly wants to do what is best for the individual animal, but mostly, I believe a lot just want to make money & as long as they aren't actively causing any harm they recommend stuff that makes them profits. 

That's just my 2 cents, based on my experiences. Now, with the wonderful web, I take it upon myself to learn about issues which I'm concerned about, trying to figure out what bits are credible & which are not.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

voodoolamb said:


> I guess for the same reason so many vets push for yearly vaccinations. Or push cereal and by product based dog foods.
> 
> One thing I have noticed are the vets who do not advocate yearly vaccines and promote species appropriate diets tend to be on board with late spay/neuter or leaving the dog intact.


I'm lucky I tell them what I want or don't want and they don't ask any questions. When I brought Apollo in as a puppy, they asked about neutering, I told them I was waiting and it never came up again. When the dogs had blood drawn I told them I feed raw, when the results came back they told me to keep doing whatever I was doing. When Robyns xrays came back I asked when the next surgery date was, no alternatives because I knew what I wanted. I hold my own dogs for ear cleaning, exams and shots, which they usually don't allow. On the last visit with Apollo as I formulated a game plan the vet looked at me and said you worked at a vet before didn't you? I smiled and said why yes I did


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MagicHorse said:


> I have moved quite a bit so have had several different vets, then I worked in a high-end pet store in Beverly Hills which sent me to seminars & training for pet nutrition. I learned so much & I was furious to find out that many companies have an agreement/contract with various vets to recommend their products (even if they are not the best option for your dog). Of course this was after my dog was diagnosed with diabetes for several years & my vet (who came highly recommended by several people) put her on Science Diet. I wanted to go off on the vet since I thought I was doing the right thing by following his advice. Nope, they just wanted money in their pocket. In the end, my dog lived to be 16 years old. Being on insulin for 11 of those years. She was half Akita & half Husky & normally weighed about 70 pounds. I had her when she was about 8 weeks old. I wonder how long she would have lived if I knew more about dogs, nutrition esp., when I 1st got her.
> 
> I would think the same thing with many vets and the spay/neuter issue. They get money right off the bat if they recommend you spay/neuter sooner. If the customer waits, you might have moved, or gotten rid of the dog, or ??? and then they don't get your money. Sometimes, I think you can find a vet that truly wants to do what is best for the individual animal, but mostly, I believe a lot just want to make money & as long as they aren't actively causing any harm they recommend stuff that makes them profits.
> 
> That's just my 2 cents, based on my experiences. Now, with the wonderful web, I take it upon myself to learn about issues which I'm concerned about, trying to figure out what bits are credible & which are not.



See if the studies are correct whether you spay/neuter early or later there are issues, so it doesn't make sense them pushing earlier because either way you'll be back later with issues(hip Dysplasia,etc) Either way they get money. If they push for dogs to stay intact that would surely cause lots of oops litters which is money too, because now all those dogs will need to be fixed or need vaccinations. It's much deeper then them pushing one way or the other, because either way is money in their pocket.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I like the vet discussion. Make me excited to study to become a vet because I really want to be one those few vets that actually do care more about the animals than the profit, which is why I LOVE learning all these things I never knew before joining this forum- benefits of raw diets, benefits of late spay/neuter, benefits of less often vaccinations, etc etc. I wish more vets were like this now, but hopefully as more dog owners become more informed, they will have to change their ways .

Luckily we do have hundreds of dogs that board at our clinic (obviously not all at the same time though! I think our clinic can hold something like a hundred or so at one time), so I could definitely get a large sample size, but still not as large as the UC Davis study. You do what you can


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I guess for the same reason so many vets push for yearly vaccinations. Or push cereal and by product based dog foods.
> 
> One thing I have noticed are the vets who do not advocate yearly vaccines and promote species appropriate diets tend to be on board with late spay/neuter or leaving the dog intact.


 Sabs vet would NOT spay/neuter large breeds before 2, he did not like annual vacs and would not preform ear cropping or tail docking. He also advocated for things like acupuncture and supplements, raw diet or home cooked diets. 
Well ahead of his time.
To bad he retired.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My two concerns on not spaying were the increased chances of mammary cancer and pyometria that I read here. Here is one paper on the mammary cancer issue. The pyometria issue, as a cause of death is less than 1%. The "spay incontinence" issue with GSD females is between 20 & 24%. 

The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs--a systematic review. - PubMed - NCBI

There's so much misinformation out there, when really looked at with bias removed - it gets more interesting. We are being fed some carp IMO.

Why out of the 13 studies they found in English did 9 of them have to be discounted because of bias. Are the drug companies pushing this and publishing articles that will favor them? How do the vets stand? Do they publish biased articles?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> My two concerns on not spaying were the increased chances of mammary cancer and pyometria that I read here. Here is one paper on the mammary cancer issue. The pyometria issue, as a cause of death is less than 1%. The "spay incontinence" issue with GSD females is between 20 & 24%.
> 
> The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs--a systematic review. - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> ...


I don't buy the articles. I have seen maybe 3 dogs out of 100 make it with pyo. I have seen no dogs make it with prostrate cancer. It's just not caught in time by your average pet owner.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I don't buy the articles. I have seen maybe 3 dogs out of 100 make it with pyo. I have seen no dogs make it with prostrate cancer. It's just not caught in time by your average pet owner.


What are the earliest symptoms of Pyo? This is something I will have to closely monitor for. I know what a tight gut feels like - is there always discharge? Any other symptoms the owner can look for? Thanks


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Everything I have researched points to they benefit from the hormones to fully mature and develope. After they do so, the hormones aren't really needed for anything else as far as structure goes.


Are you sure about this? Voodoo's post agrees with what I have researched. There are lifelong benefits.

(post #166)


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> What are the earliest symptoms of Pyo? This is something I will have to closely monitor for. I know what a tight gut feels like - is there always discharge? Any other symptoms the owner can look for? Thanks


Lethargy, depression,vomiting, diarrhea, pretty much the same symptoms that can be a number of different things. Lots of people don't take their dogs in for these things and by the time they do its to late if it's pyo.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Are you sure about this? Voodoo's post agrees with what I have researched. There are lifelong benefits.
> 
> (post #166)


Everything is theory, nobody knows anything for sure. A dogs life span is not long enough for things that work for humans to work for them. A dog matures between 3-5, then become seniors at 6 yrs old. Live until 10-12 yrs old. They keep changing how a dog ages compare to humans, because they just don't know. Lots of bone issues are deficiencies, especially in calcium. So if the dog is eating a food that has calcium it should be balanced or is it? Brings us right back to diet--such a vicious circle. 

Some info on different bone cancers.,.

Bone Cancer Dogs


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Lethargy, depression,vomiting, diarrhea, pretty much the same symptoms that can be a number of different things. Lots of people don't take their dogs in for these things and by the time they do its to late if it's pyo.


Thanks. I never hesitate when I see these symptoms - every time, there has always been a problem that needed a vet. I don't make a wish and see how it is in a few days. I guess that's a benefit of owning several dogs over the years. When they're "off" it's a red flag.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Prostate cancer happens to neutered dogs. Neutering DOES NOT prevent prostate cancer, and the numbers suggest that it may actually be the other way on that. 

Intact dogs can get prostate cancer. So can neutered dogs. Maybe it doesn't matter either way on that one. 

As for discounting all the other factors, who said that? Some of us vaccinate as little as possible. I vaccinate for parvo/distemper and rabies, but certainly not every year. My vet has it on a 3-year schedule. Sometimes I stretch that to four years. I don't vaccinate for lepto or bordatella. Will it help? I don't know. 

I don't use pesticides on my dogs or pesticides or herbicides in my yard. If I see a tick, I pick it off (so far 3 in 20 years). If I find a flea, everyone will get treated for 2-3 months, but it has been years since I have used any flea-tick stuff. I don't give heartworm -- that is a risk. But I test for it, and if I get a positive, I will then treat. 

I do worm puppies. I never see a worm. I have yet to have a positive stool sample when I have brought them in for this or that. But baby-puppies and their dam get wormed. I don't want the puppies dealing with a worm load. I think that compromises their long-term immunity too.

I have tried high end food. And I am currently on a mid-range food. If I thought the high-end food would buy me quality ingredients and less chance of cancer, than I probably would go that route. But, frankly, I do not believe it at all. It could be just good marketing, and I do not know that dogs really do all that much better without grains, or with foods that are so dense that the calorie content is so much higher that you feed fewer cups of it. 

As for vets selling and pushing pet food, well again the marketers of some pet foods zero in on the vets. It used to be there was one nutrition class that vets had to take in the course of their education. The class was developed by Purina. And, that probably made sense back in the day. The drug companies give doctors (and vets) samples and gifts, and in return, when the dog has this, we remember there is a drug from XYZ company that covers that. Not much difference. 

On spaying and neutering I have heard over and again, something to the effect, "for us, we should be careful, but for ordinary pet owners..." Well, isn't it true for vets and dog foods? When I was 14, we had a dog that my mom brought home, that was a stray that her aunt had been feeding. It was about 9 months old. We got it home and when Dad did the shopping at Edwards (the precurser of Finast -- big warehouse, bulk foods, you put the price down with crayons on each package), he would pick up the house-brand gaines burgers for the dog. 

She had worms and got sick and the vet we took her to said, "feed her chicken soup." So we went home and opened a can of Campbell's chicken soup. Yeah, that didn't work. She ate that one day, and became sicker and even more emaciated by the next week when the same vet said he would check her for worms, but didn't want to when she was so sick, so he gave her a shot to make her more active. 

Even my generic-pet-owner-mother listened to that crap and drove her straight to another vet. He checked her for worms, told us to keep her out of the garbage, and told us to get her off the generic dog food. Anything that is 100% nutritionally balanced. She lived to be almost 15 off of Dad's Trail Mix, or Purina whatever, after surviving a bout of an aggressive form of stomach cancer. So maybe your average vet is just happy to see people going a step up from Ole Roy. 

Maybe these holistic, organic, grain-free, supersonic dog foods make a difference in nutrition of 90% better wellness, and maybe it is 9%, and maybe it is even less. No studies on that either.

As for studies on the long-term effects of spaying/neutering? Well, ok, what credible entity is going to perform such studies? Veterinarians? How could they not be biased when veterinarians spay/neuter thousands of animals in their careers. Will they want to know that they reduced the lifespans and caused other types if diseases? Who will fund such a study? Doesn't fall under dog foods or any other member of the pet-industry that has enough market share to cover the costs of such a study. 

Sometimes we have to try and put 2 and 2 together to come up with something on our own. We draw parallels to human health and well-being because that makes sense. Studies have been performed on humans that have removed the hormones because it makes sense to do these to best treat humans that have had them removed. Doctors have not made a practice of fixing every human male and female they come across, so such studies are not hamstrung before they even begin. 

And lastly, the question of oops litters. Of course the sire and dams of oops litters are unlikely to be health-screened for genetic issues. Lack of testing does not create issues, it simply helps breeders make better choices, knowing better what they are dealing with. But, yes, they would most likely not have that information. Evenso, I think the HSUS/PETA campaign to fix all creatures owned by humans has actually backfired. Lots of people buy the responsible pet ownership/spay-neuter connection and do indeed spay and neuter, so much so that your typical my-dog-had-puppies situations have dramatically decreased in the last 30 years. On the other hand, the demand for puppies has either stayed the same or increased, and thus your large-scale breeders have increased in number and increased in overall size. And the puppy mill industry has really been boosted by HSUS/PETA. In return the nasty conditions/photos supply the marketing these charitable groups NEED to get people to give to them, so that they can exist. The relatively small number of oopses (most of which are intentional) from ordinary pet owners, that do end up in the hands of shelter workers, are small in comparison to what is coming out of the mills. Frankly, I think it would be better for the dogs, for more oops litters to be born, and fewer people would then buy from internet fronts for huge-scale producers. The bitches and dogs would be better off, anyway.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> What are the earliest symptoms of Pyo? This is something I will have to closely monitor for. I know what a tight gut feels like - is there always discharge? Any other symptoms the owner can look for? Thanks


This is another thing that I think probably has a genetic component, though I know of no studies that prove this. It seems to run in lines. 

But, really, you should look it up and read up on the condition, print it out and keep a handout on it, if you are concerned about it. 

There are two types of pyo: open and closed. With open you have discharge that is nasty/smells, other signs of illness. With closed, you get no discharge and this is the more dangerous, because the pus has no where to go, fills up in there, and will burst, almost always killing the bitch. However, there will be other signs of illness. 

In fact, the moment you take an intact bitch in for ANYTHING -- bleeding paw pads -- they will immediately suggest pyo, and demand an emergency spay. Ok, that is a little extreme, but only a little. And yes, you have to educate yourself on this disease, sometimes more to ensure that your vet has not diagnosed your dog prematurely knowing she is intact (this happens), and refuses to look past the possibility. 

Also, the answer is NOT always an emergency spay. If you have a good reproductive vet, they can treat pyo without surgery. It isn't cheap or easy, especially with closed, maybe a week hospitalization, and then you are encouraged to breed on the next cycle and spay soon as you are no longer breeding her, because it tends to happen again. As I think it can run in lines, I don't know that it makes sense to breed a bitch that has had pyo. But I know people who have. So it isn't a death sentence, or even an emergency spay thing. 

On the other hand, your typical vets tend to believe that is the only thing to be done, and if they can't see past the fact that your bitch is intact, if you do not educate yourself, and you do not call your breeder FIRST, you may have a sick dog given an unnecessary and likely harmful surgery.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Yes neutered dogs can get prostrate cancer, but isn't it odd that when an intact dog gets it they neuter them with the hopes that works. It those little things that should make anyone wonder.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> As for studies on the long-term effects of spaying/neutering? Well, ok, what credible entity is going to perform such studies? Veterinarians? How could they not be biased when veterinarians spay/neuter thousands of animals in their careers. Will they want to know that they reduced the lifespans and caused other types if diseases? Who will fund such a study? Doesn't fall under dog foods or any other member of the pet-industry that has enough market share to cover the costs of such a study.


This is why I rely on the vet teaching universities such as UC Davis. I first became aware of them about 35 years ago. My sister was "attached" in several long term studies (that ended up spanning a 20+ year participation) with her dairy goat herds. It was through her telling me about the stringent requirements and inspections for any animals to be taken into their test studies. They certainly are not influenced by any specific for profit businesses. Rather, they are makers or breakers of a food or drugs efficiency or failure. 

The tests are becoming so sophisticated that when you read their study results on certain illnesses in the last 2 or 3 years - you will see footnotes that the data has been picked up for human illness studies. They enjoy generous Gov't funding as a result. They strive for pure research and their performance along with rapid DNA and computer analysis has shown a superior quality. I just don't trust the vets anymore and IMO they hate that we ask questions.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Yes neutered dogs can get prostrate cancer, but isn't it odd that when an intact dog gets it they neuter them with the hopes that works. It those little things that should make anyone wonder.


Well that's the same thing they do immediately with human males. It's no surprise since that particular type comes from one place. Same as women that get breast cancer. They cut it away. But they don't cut all balls and breasts off people as a precaution. 

My dad died of prostate cancer at 72. He went every year for a full check up. Test was bogus and he got a false negative, so by the time the next year rolled around and he got a positive - it was way too late.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

There are pros and cons on either side of the fence. It all comes down to our choice. As a caregiver we need to do what we think is right. My girlfriend will neuter her dog because she feels that's what's best. I will not.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Prostate cancer happens to neutered dogs. Neutering DOES NOT prevent prostate cancer, and the numbers suggest that it may actually be the other way on that.
> 
> Intact dogs can get prostate cancer. So can neutered dogs. Maybe it doesn't matter either way on that one.
> 
> ...


Great post Selzer. As I already stated, my dog that was neutered for health reasons later developed prostrate cancer.

As somebody that lives in a city that has nothing but Pit Bulls to offer in shelters, and even if you go on Craig's List, you will find it loaded with nothing but Pit Bulls or "designer" mixed small breeds, and my city has mandatory speuter before leaving shelters, I see where there has been a huge increase in puppy mills and backyard breeders to pick up the slack for a demand where the supply is at a critical low.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Great post Selzer. As I already stated, my dog that was neutered for health reasons later developed prostrate cancer.
> 
> As somebody that lives in a city that has nothing but Pit Bulls to offer in shelters, and even if you go on Craig's List, you will find it loaded with nothing but Pit Bulls or "designer" mixed small breeds, and my city has mandatory speuter before leaving shelters, I see where there has been a huge increase in puppy mills and backyard breeders to pick up the slack for a demand where the supply is at a critical low.


Nothing like that vicious cycle. Over and over.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> There are pros and cons on either side of the fence. It all comes down to our choice. As a caregiver we need to do what we think is right. My girlfriend will neuter her dog because she feels that's what's best. I will not.


I think that's exactly right. I just hope that the information people use to make their decisions is not by rumor mill or vets that have sold their souls to $$$$.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> This is another thing that I think probably has a genetic component, though I know of no studies that prove this. It seems to run in lines.
> 
> But, really, you should look it up and read up on the condition, print it out and keep a handout on it, if you are concerned about it.
> 
> There are two types of pyo: open and closed. With open you have discharge that is nasty/smells, other signs of illness. With closed, you get no discharge and this is the more dangerous, because the pus has no where to go, fills up in there, and will burst, almost always killing the bitch. However, there will be other signs of illness.


Yea, I knew about opened and closed. I just wanted to see what this particular reply would be. When there is great resistance to proven studies - I need to feel around to be able to judge the quality of the resistance. I have my answer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Nothing like that vicious cycle. Over and over.


Your point???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, I knew about opened and closed. I just wanted to see what this particular reply would be. When there is great resistance to proven studies - I need to feel around to be able to judge the quality of the resistance. I have my answer.


I have not lost a bitch to pyo. 

My import always required c-sections, and never had any fluid released prior to surgery, even if the placentas were separating from the puppies when they went in and got them. So when she came up empty, but her womb had fluid in it, I went ahead and spayed. I did not intend to breed her again, and the vet said that if she wasn't sick already, she would get sick. She was happy and healthy, just not pregnant, and they agreed I could have just treated it, but it would have take a week's hospitalization, so I decided to spay. 

Another option that neither of us considered was to do the c-section and remove the fluid, send me home with antibiotics, and she probably would have been fine. But I am not a vet. And if it was pyo, or if it developed into pyo, then it would most likely do so again. 

Maybe if buyers had a healthier attitude about health issues in living creatures, breeders wouldn't be so frightened to disclose the facts about what might run in their lines. Ah well.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> I have not lost a bitch to pyo.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if buyers had a healthier attitude about health issues in living creatures, breeders wouldn't be so frightened to disclose the facts about what might run in their lines. Ah well.


lol. I agree. There was quite a discussion a couple of weeks ago where I caught a lot of flack because I placed part of the blame on the breeders. Explaining though, that I understood the most advanced conscientious breeders were still turning out litters with health problems. If you take a look at the GSD genetic studies and realize that the problems are so tangled and intermixed at this point - it's a wonder how breeders can guarantee anything but hips or elbows. 

I don't know if the average "potential" first time GSD owner could take the truth.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your point???


That people can't get dogs as easily at a shelter, going to bybs and puppy mills, and more dogs ending up in shelters. Wasn't anything towards you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

:thumbup:


cloudpump said:


> That people can't get dogs as easily at a shelter, going to bybs and puppy mills, and more dogs ending up in shelters. Wasn't anything towards you.


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