# Examples of Conformation



## GsdLoverr729

Hey guys!!! I've been looking at Linda's confirmation breakdowns (posted on someone else's thread), as well as reading carefully through the standard. I also visit the dogs at the GSDCA (specifically the Atlanta/Woodstock location) and keeping an eye on their confirmation. That's helped me a bit to spot dogs that adhere to American standard. And I'm pretty darn good with movement for a total newb! xD
For those of you who remember, I even asked for a critique on Koda so that I could learn a bit more about it (through her faults, and her single trait that was complimented ). I have also gone through/watched other peoples' critique threads to get an idea.

Now I was wondering... What does a dog with GREAT confirmation look like? What does a poorly built dog look like? 
I was hoping some of the more knowledgeable members, or others learning to critique, could post a picture of a dog they really like and explain the strongest points (and weak ones if any). As well as posting a dog that isn't put together well and explaining how you would define the problems, what they are, etc. If it's not ok to put the bad ones up that's ok too... I've so far been finding most of them on google lol.


I mean, so far I've learned to watch the withers fairly well. I can recognize a nice tail. I can also pick out backs with too much slope or roached backs, secondary sex characteristics, and coloring.


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## qbchottu

First lesson: it's conformation. 

Confirmation is a Christian rite or a ratification.


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## gagsd

V Bill vom Fasanenhof










I am not a 'show" person, so probably should not comment, but very much like this dog's conformation.


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## Andaka

I like this dog. He is DDR.










And I like this dog. He is ASL.


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## bunchoberrys

Andaka said:


> I like this dog. He is DDR.
> 
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> 
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> 
> And I like this dog. He is ASL.


 

Andaka....would that top male be a Laramie german shepherd? A good friend of mine has a male from them. Verrrry nice dogs. I have been noseying around her website. lol


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## wildo

Well, Pimg isn't a model of conformation, but in her critique thread I was told be two different people that she has a "very nice croup." And so when I am critiquing other dogs, I admit that I often look back at this picture as kind of a guideline to croup length and angle:










Pimg also has nice tight feet. You can see her rear toes are held tight in the stack picture above, and in this picture below- you can see even when her weight is on them, she still holds her front feet tight, not splayed out all over:










As to faults- Pimg is flat withered, has a pronounced T11 dip (break in top line), has a short upper arm, and is very poorly pigmented.


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## Vaks

Elle, my female, in "free stack". German working line, and SG (very good) with juge Rudiger Mai (SV juge).










Very good type, very good front and rear angulations. Very good top line, etc.

It's not a "show line" but... it's a very good german sheperd for IPO 

Hélène


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## Elaine

Oh, I like her! Very pretty, Helene.


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## Xeph

American show line


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## Vaks

Elaine said:


> Oh, I like her! Very pretty, Helene.


Thank's!!!


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## Andaka

bunchoberrys said:


> Andaka....would that top male be a Laramie german shepherd? A good friend of mine has a male from them. Verrrry nice dogs. I have been noseying around her website. lol


Yes, it is. Max is the grandsire of my current obedience dog. Judy and I are computer friends.


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## GsdLoverr729

Thanks for all the examples, everyone! It's really helpful! 

Also- sorry about my mispel. I had "The History of Christianity" on tv when I made this sooo  I kinda derped!


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## robk

This is Rugers' grand father. I like him a lot;


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## GsdLoverr729

robk said:


> This is Rugers' grand father. I like him a lot;


 I like the look of him! :wub: Especially that bushy tail and his head... o-o


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## martemchik

The sad thing is that each person will give you a different dog. You should join a club, or go to some shows if you really want to see what conformation is. What the length of the croup is, what the different angles should be, ect. The worse thing is that different judges will look for different things and the exhibitors know this and will only enter their dogs to show under judges that "like" the kind of dog they have.

I've got family near St. Louis...maybe when I go visit I can stop by Andaka's and see her dogs in person...love when a conformation dog works. Let me know how I'd go about doing that Andaka...


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## GsdLoverr729

Well, as I said in my first post I do go to the shepherd club of Woodstock, which branches off the American club. I also attend their shows. But that is all American dogs, and part if what I want is to see dinner variety. I learn more quickly by comparing. I knew I would get a tin of different dogs, but that was my point. 
I feel like it will help me to view different opinions because it opens my sight to more dogs, so I can practice in my head, learn how people view their comformation, etc.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> American show line


Looong dog?


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## Xeph

She is slightly long in loin, but she's also parked out a bit more than usual


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## cliffson1

I honestly think she presents a very pretty picture, I don't think she has typical GS structure. But that's just one opinion.


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## Liesje

To the OP I keep a folder on my computer where I save pictures of dogs I like. The thing is, as I look through the folder I can't find any that are my "perfect" dog. They are all in there for one thing or another (good ear set, correct shoulder, nice rear....).


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## cliffson1

Kymmy, from your OP, you gave examples of dogs you saw at the GSDCA, in terms of that perspective, I think that Xeph's female is pretty and has very good structure .....my comment has to be in proper context.


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## blackshep

qbchottu said:


> First lesson: it's conformation.
> 
> Confirmation is a Christian rite or a ratification.



Thank you!!! :laugh: This mistake drives me crazy. lol


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## FlyAway

blackshep said:


> Confirmation is a Christian rite or a ratification.
> 
> Thank you!!! :laugh:


Confirmation is the number the hotel gives you when you make a reservation.


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## msvette2u

FlyAway said:


> Confirmation is the number the hotel gives you when you make a reservation.


Or when you pay a bill


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## qbchottu

A couple of dogs I like very much:

Ebafarmens Izaro:
VA Ebafarmens Izaro
To me, Izaro is the real deal. I will be the first to ridicule the smoke and mirror showlines - bought titles and midnight trials, what a joke!. I laugh at them right along with my working dog people. But Izaro is just an awesome dog. Regardless of lines, that is what I look for. I love my showlines, but I don't excuse them. If a SL is crap and to the extreme, you won't see me getting a puppy out of that breeding or endorsing him. Izaro lives in a home, gets along with other dogs/bitches, beautiful obedience, excellent bite work, incredible intensity and drive. Now to the conformation, he is a substantial male. I hate those weeny little show males that are all the rage. I have seen more than one "stud" male that I mistook for a bitch because he was so laughably small and forgettable. I love a strong, regal and impressive male. One that can take my breath away and Izaro is one such example. He has that pizazz you expect out of a stud male. Even after a tiring hour in Sieger show, he still had the drive to bark and call for his handler. Also happily engaged in a nice game of ball afterwards. I've handled him for ring practice and he gave me calluses for a week after! Power like a freight train, moves beautifully, a natural. Incredible pigment, beautiful dark mask, strong bone, good moderate structure, nothing to the extreme, masculine. He does not have perfect structure, but he is a nice dog. 

Visiting horses:









Hanging out with his buds on a long down:









Hanging out while we were drinking beers:









He is producing some nice pups with excellent temperament, conformation and drive. Here is the little Izaro rugrat I have my eye on:








See that dark mask - characteristic of Izaro babies. I look for that also in a nice dog - one that can produce the best of himself in his progeny. She is a little fireball so far. A maniac after the rag and endless energy. Hopefully she continues to improve. 

Here is another I like:
VA6 Mentos vom Osterberger-Land
Beautiful drive, movement, structure and personality. I can find good structure in a lot of dogs. Like Lies, bits and pieces that I really like and would match well to my female(s). But I place a lot of importance on drive, workability, sharpness (reminiscent of my first GSDs in India -I love a nasty dog ) and movement. I think Mentos is a really cool dog. I hope to meet him next year. Friends have told me that he is my type of show dog. I guess we will see if he lives up to the hype!


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## Andaka

This is another DDR dog that I like the structure of. (and no, they don't have to be black) He is Golf vom Clausberg INTERNATIONAL/ UKC GRAND CHAMPION Golf v Clausberg, CGC, a-normal, OFA Good


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## GsdLoverr729

Liesje- I don't think that I'll see a dog I view as "perfect" here if at all... But I'm kind of doing what you said. Trying to see good, and bad, examples of croup, ears, head, paws, etc. 

Cliff- Sadly I have only seen ASL dogs in the conformation ring (in person thus far), so that is where my base is. But I look mostly at the other lines online. I do agree though that Xeph's pic is a very pretty dog. A bit longer than I'm used to seeing  

Qb- I agree that small, gangly males aren't very impressive. I love lean dogs (Koda is very lean). But I prefer to see males with good, heavier bone. I am also a total sucker for a dark face :wub: I love the pigmentation that Mentos has, and his secondary sex characteristics. Would his topline be counted as good, or is it slightly roached (it looks to be ever so slightly such to me lol). He is stunning, I just want to check myself x.x

Andaka- I like Golf's look. His neck does look a bit longer than the necks of the others people are posting (maybe just the picture). But I like how his topline isn't flat, nor is it an exaggerated slope.


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## qbchottu

Crok - Meine Homepage
I hate his back end and croup, but love everything else about him. Lovely front, beautiful masculine head, gorgeous pigment, awesome withers. Nice mover for a working dog, highly accomplished, great drives, bone crushing grips, extremely bonded to his handler - they are a joy to watch perform. Cool dog.


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## GsdLoverr729

I like his tail a lot... I don't know what it is with me and tails  Maybe it's cause Koda has a nice tail? xD
I see what you mean about his back end and croup... I would like to see him in action.

And again- sorry about the spelling everyone. I've written and spelled conformation sooo many times. But I sometimes type what I hear/see and I didn't even notice this time until Qb said something lol.


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## qbchottu

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Qb- I agree that small, gangly males aren't very impressive. I love lean dogs (Koda is very lean). But I prefer to see males with good, heavier bone. I am also a total sucker for a dark face :wub: I love the pigmentation that Mentos has, and his secondary sex characteristics. Would his topline be counted as good, or is it slightly roached (it looks to be ever so slightly such to me lol). He is stunning, I just want to check myself x.x


99% of people that talk about GSDs have zero clue what a roach back even means.
Roach back means that there is a point on the topline where it is HIGHER than the withers. Unfortunately, people make the mistake of calling high withers moving in a topline as a roach. That is NOT a roach!! 
This is a roach:








There is a point on the back (topline) where it is HIGHER than the withers. This is an extreme roach. This dog should be culled or placed in a pet home. 

This is an example of a breed that is supposed to have a roach:
The Bedlington Terrier with a true roach - part of its breed standard. 

















Too often, people inexperienced in structure and conformation call a BROKEN topline a roach. A broken topline is just as useless as a roach back. This is when you have HIGH withers that drop off in an extreme manner because the croup and rest of the topline inclines at such an extreme dropoff:








This is NOT a roach back. It is a hinged back or a broken topline. This dog will not move right - won't even start on the poor front, but this dog should be sold as a pet. 

Mentos has a nice topline and he is NOT roached. He is stacked and has the slightest bit of a broken topline because he drops in steep to his croup. He could use a better topline, but I am more concerned with his temperament, personality and drive. There are better dogs conformation wise, but I like his aggression, workability and drive. 








Not stacked, he will look fine. The problem is most people that call a SL a roach have never interacted with or seen the dog in person. In person, my bitch with high withers looks the same as any other dog - in fact she will look better than a dog with flat withers and limited topline. Do not look to the high withers and a steep topline and call it a roach. A true roach has to be when the highest point of the topline is not the withers, but somewhere along the topline. Mentos is NOT roached.


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## qbchottu

GsdLoverr729 said:


> And again- sorry about the spelling everyone. I've written and spelled conformation sooo many times. But I sometimes type what I hear/see and I didn't even notice this time until Qb said something lol.


No worries - we are just teasing you. At least you won't make that spelling error again!


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## GsdLoverr729

Lol!!! I know! But I know that it is a pet peeve for a lot of people (just like when someone mispells "shepherd")

I sure hope not xD
Now that I've watched that show, I don't think I'll be watching it again


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## wildo

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I like his tail a lot... I don't know what it is with me and tails  Maybe it's cause Koda has a nice tail? xD


Not a thing wrong with liking a good tail. I find a short tail to be very distracting on an otherwise really nice dog, personally. And again personally- I prefer a longer tail, perhaps even longer than the standard (gasp!!). The SV states:



> *Tail*
> The tail reaches at least to the hock joint, but not past the halfway point of the hock itself. The coat is slightly longer on the underside of the tail. The tail hangs in a soft, saber-like curve. When the dog is excited or in motion, the tail is somewhat raised, but should not reach past the horizontal line. Surgical corrections are not permitted.


Note that Pimg's tail just reaches the ground. I think that looks excellent. Vaks' dog Elle appears to have a tail that reaches the halfway point of the hock, and I think it looks very nice. I've seen other dogs where the tail only reaches the top of the hock and I don't like it one bit. To me it just seems like part of the tail is missing.

I also really dislike a rat tail. While picking thistle-like weed things (whatever those are called) out of her tail isn't fun, I still prefer a bushy tail to a rat tail aesthetically.


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## GsdLoverr729

I like fluffy tails (not excessively so), that in a stack reach 1/2 way down the hock or slightly farther. I also like a very subtle curve in the bottom (not a total curl, not a hook. Just a subtle curve). I just think it completes the look of the hind end.


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## qbchottu

Kymmey: did you catch my roach post on the previous page? Make sense?


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## GsdLoverr729

Ahhh ok! I understand now. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
I believe I need to visit some German shows now to watch that more clearly.  

You all are so helpful!!!


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## qbchottu

You are in Georgia. There is a nice SV conformation show and trial in Atlanta each year. If I have a couple of good puppies to show and Wiva is not in heat, I will be at the next one. It is usually in the fall. Come to that, meet my dogs, hang out and you will learn more than from reading tidbits on the internet. 
Events

Yuliya of von Lotta is also in Ga. Really sweet nice person - will probably let you hang out and meet her dogs if you drop her a mail. Her dogs have gorgeous pigment and color - you will like her and her dogs.


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## GsdLoverr729

That would be great! I missed the one this year due to work :/ But I have already informed my boss that I will need to be able to go next year, and he agreed on the basis that I tell him at least a week in advance (so I will tell him when I find the date out). I was also hoping to attend the Sieger show next year or the year after. 

Yuliya is actually one of the breeders I was looking at to buy from, I always keep an eye on the dogs she has, is breeding, her show updates, and her puppies. I will definitely have to email her so I can try and visit (I wanted to anyways), once I'm off full-time work. We had our other kennel tech quit last week, so I'm working 6 days a week for 2 more weeks >.>


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## Liesje

I actually like Pimg very much, despite her breeding. I like her substance, though she might be a tad on the large (not fat!!) side for me, but I'd like a bitch with more substance than too fine. I like her head and her ear set. I also really like her coat. It reminds me of dogs that live outside and thus have a naturally thick coat. I like the overall length of her body, her proportions, and just the overall picture.

I have a hard time picking random dogs and critiquing them publicly, especially since I have not seen most in person, but I can critique my own dog.....

Size: correct medium size, 70-75lbs

Bone: not excessive but not fine

Wet/dry: he's always been very dry/firm/tight when moving, even as a little puppy he didn't have weak hocks or that gangly stage, he actually beat some Am line puppies in UKC matches when he was bout 5 months old

Color: yes I like black and red but I like that his black is BLACK, there's no bitch stripe and he was basically a blanket black until he turned a year old

Overall proportions: I think he has decent angles without being overdone, could use maybe a tad more in front with a little higher wither, but overall I think he's pretty well balanced and I think he has a good croup

Movement: his movement is not extreme but again is balanced, he opens at the shoulder, and he shows very nice on a loose lead

Coat: I wouldn't mind a tad more plush to his coat but I don't think he's overly tight coated

Eyes: I like the shape and color, could maybe be ever so slightly darker as sometimes they look light (to me) in direct sunlight

Ears: one of my least favorite things, I think the ears are a little too big and set a little too wide, I prefer an earset like Lorie's Gavin, however I do like the shape of Nikon's ears better than his sire.

Expression: one of my favorite things, I think he's quite expressive and doesn't have that scowly look like some GSDs

Feet: I think the feet could be tighter, though not terrible. Part of this is probably due to always living and training on matted surfaces, carpet, grass. He's also still a little east/west in front.

Topline: he does have that dip and I can make it go away with some grooming and good stacking but it's usually there when you see him just being normal

Teeth: His dentition is all there (nothing missing or extra), he does have a slight overbite but has a scissor bite so it's not interfered with showing him


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## qbchottu

2013 USA sieger show will be in WI and NASS will be in Conn (I think). Might be a trek for you, but it would be very nice if you can go. Crazy, but fun


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## lhczth

qbchottu said:


> Too often, people inexperienced in structure and conformation call a BROKEN topline a roach. A broken topline is just as useless as a roach back. This is when you have HIGH withers that drop off in an extreme manner because the croup and rest of the topline inclines at such an extreme dropoff:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is NOT a roach back. It is a hinged back or a broken topline.


 
Agree that most people call this a roached back which is incorrect. This puppy, though, has a flat withers that gives the appearance of being high only because of the awful dropped off topline. Many dogs do not have correct withers in both show and working lines. People are just so used to seeing incorrect that they no longer know what correct is.


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## GsdLoverr729

Liesje- I adore your guy. He's one of my favorites on the board to see pics of. I was actually looking at Alta-Tollhaus' site recently and saw a lot of dogs I like the look of. Xbox is one of my favorite sires they have listed right now (doesn't belong to them but I really like him). Anywaysss, that trotting picture looks very nice to me. All four feet off the ground, nice reach (from what my amateur eye can tell lol). Very impressive guy!

Qb- It may be a trek now, but I'm willing to make it. Matt and I are actually talking about moving to Colorado, Texas, Washington, or North Carolina for work. So at least a couple of those are closer if we do move.

Lisa- I definitely don't recognize correct immediately. Right now, I have Linda's structure breakdown on another tab and I am comparing each pic I see to it


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## qbchottu

I don't think her withers are flat. But I agree usually it is because the withers are so high and the topline breaks so badly.


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## wildo

Dang Lies- super nice of you to say!


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## lhczth

I will try to post a photo of a dog with high withers when I get back. Need to go track.


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## GsdLoverr729

Thank you!  
Have fun tracking!


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## qbchottu

High withers:

































To me that puppy with broken topline has ok withers - not flat. I think her head turned messes up the picture so one cannot see for sure.


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## Liesje

For me there are so many things wrong with how that puppy was set up I can't even begin to comment, not really sure WHAT I'm looking at since one hock is flat and the rear legs look splayed out.


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## qbchottu

Amen Lies....


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## GsdLoverr729

Thank you for those examples, Qb. 
They're very interesting to compare to these diagrams/breakdowns o-o\

I can't wait to start looking at this kind of thing in person :wub: With dogs OTHER than ASLs


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## lhczth

That puppy had flat withers. The other photos you posted are good withers. Eros', IMO, are the least correct since it is the same height as his back before his topline breaks off and starts to curve down. 

High withers. They could flow a hair more smoothly into the back, IMO. 










I got tired of going through photos so Klodo will have to do.  VA1 Bodo also had correct withers as did VA1 Eros Hambachtal, VA Bert Haus Knüfken (who as also very masculine), Lasso di Val Sole.


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## GsdLoverr729

I'll now have to google all of them! Or find them on PDB


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## JanaeUlva

gagsd said:


> V Bill vom Fasanenhof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a 'show" person, so probably should not comment, but very much like this dog's conformation.


*Like* I like the agile look


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## GsdLoverr729

These the correct ones? Lol!

VA 1 Bodo:








VA 1 Eros vom Hambachtal:

VA Bert Haus Knüfken :

^ That guy looks BEEFY! O_O He could eat me alive x.x
Lasso Di Val Sole:


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## gagsd

JanaeUlva said:


> *Like* I like the agile look


Yep, I LOVE Bill's structure. Obviously male, but very athletic while retaining the look of power.
And he was 'V" rated.


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## GsdLoverr729

Bill is built similarly to Koda's father. 
Of course, Koda's father probably had a lot more faults.


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## gagsd

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Bill is built similarly to Koda's father.
> Of course, Koda's father probably had a lot more faults.


Who is Koda's father? Picture?


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## GsdLoverr729

I can try to get in touch with her breeder for one. I never got her pedigree from him, which is why she isn't registered. I know that he's a BYB so probably not anybody special lol. I just remember that every time I met him I noticed that he was a lean, athletic lookin beast. 
I'll have a pic within the next few days if the breeder responds to the old email I have (don't know if it is still correct). If not I'll stop by his Ga home (he is usually there during the Summer/Fall) and visit to get a pic. I'm sure he'd appreciate seeing Koda again as well.


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## Rei

I do not know much about conformation either, nor do I think my dog is the ideal, but here are some stacked/movement pictures and critiques to help you out. I always enjoy reading critiques and looking back at the dog to try and see what the experts see.











Critique courtesy of qbchottu



qbchottu said:


> Nicely pigmented male with great masculine features. Good solid bone with (what looks to be) dark eyes. Normal withers and ok topline. Croup is steep and there is a slight break with the topline there. Nice front angulation and ok rear angulation. I think he is a bit overstretched in the rear which gives him a slightly hocky look so I would try to minimize that next time. Good muscle, but I like my dogs very thin and ribby so I think his structure/definition would show better with a couple less pounds.


A more recent stack (lost weight, got in shape, appears more alert, and was recently groomed down)










A silly picture, but it shows him from the front and his earset









Gaiting a little too enthusiastically









Courtesy of Christine/BlackthornGSD



BlackthornGSD said:


> He looks still a bit young in the pictures--like he could still mature a bit more, although at 3.5, he should be pretty much done growing. Nevertheless, he is a very nicely put together boy.


From Robin/robinhuerta (the close coat was a result of me going overboard with the undercoat rake  )



robinhuerta said:


> He has a very nice, balanced body structure.
> More coat would even make him look better.......nice dog...congrats!


And Lisa/lhczth



lhczth said:


> Slightly stretched male with high withers, OK topline, good position of a croup that coule be a little bit longer. Very good angulaton in front with a nice long upper arm and very good angulation in the rear. Good bone, pasterns and feet though he looks like he toes out a bit on the near front. Good color though his tan could be a bit richer. I would like to see stronger secondary sex characteristics. My biggest criticism is that he is long (stretched).
> 
> In movement he appears to have tremendous drive off the rear and reach in front. He also looks balanced. He does hunch up a bit during movement which explains, in my mind, what I see in his topline (and why I only gave it an OK).





lhczth said:


> The connection between his withers and back just looks off to me. Don't know how to describe it. He has a high withers, but then he drops down quite a bit into the topline. When he moves, he moves a bit more like a dog with flat withers. I don't really know how to describe what I am seeing and, of course, what I am seeing is based on a shot in time.


Two additional gaiting pictures from the past - a more easy going, "casual" gait


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## GsdLoverr729

Rei- Thank you for putting both of those together!!! I did keep an eye on the second critique of him (after the weight loss) due to curiousity, but I hadn't seen the first one. Pretty big difference that weight loss made! I think he's very handsome though.


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## Rei

No problem, it helped me a lot as well. I have a lot of appreciation for the experts of this board and the knowledge they share with us.

The pictures are taken a month or two apart, he probably lost 3 to 5 lbs of fat maximum. The difference is not so much the weight loss as it is the weight loss + loss of undercoat + stance/posture combination. In the first (before) picture, we were strolling along the open field and I grabbed him on whim for a stack as a part of our morning routine. He was very relaxed, bored, and accustomed to holding the stack for me. In the second picture, he was stacked and then I pretended there was a cat around (with a "hey kitty!" cue) so he was tensed, alert, and on a look out for a cat. 

But spotting that is also a matter of being able to pick out that the individual parts of his structure and conformation and seeing that they have not changed as much as they have become differently presented. Xeph on this board had pointed out that while he lost substance between the first and second stacks (which I good naturedly complained about), he also shows off his high withers better and presents an overall smoother picture once he became more alert.

The fact that his mouth is closed also makes a difference between the two stacks - he does not have as strong of a head as I would like, but when his mouth is open his secondary sex characteristics appear sufficient. When his mouth is closed, he appears, in my opinion, ,to have a bit of a bitch head. Love my dog, though. I do still find him well balanced enough for me, and his structure certainly can keep up with his mental stamina and drive.


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## GsdLoverr729

I wish I could get another critique on Koda, in a better stack and maybe when her posture/expression are more confident. But I only have one recent pic that matches that a bit  And I do see, looking over her stacks, that a couple where she is "smiling" make her head seem more masculine LOL


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## Rei

Well, I post critique threads like nobody's business. I think everyone must be sick of them by now  

We practice stacking as a part of our routine morning walk. Sometimes I can get a good shot and sometimes I won't. It's been 3 1/2 years of practice and it's still a matter of luck.


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## GsdLoverr729

My two biggest issues: Getting her hock at a 90 degree angle (I always over-extend for some reason), and getting her to look interested as I move away. Usually she gives me an irritated or pitiful face >.>
I got a great stack today when she knew I didn't have my phone or camera


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## Rei

That's usually how it goes - awesome stack, perfect representation of my dog's structure, reaching for the camera before I miss it and... oh, wait, I don't even have it on hand. Thanks, Dog! 

The alert expression is the most difficult for me. I only figured out the "hey, kitty!" trick a little over a month ago. A great on watch expression, but I know he'll hold the stay. It is usually easier if you have a helper to take the picture while you catch the dog's attention (as qbchottu recommended to me before). I know others who have thrown paper bags or toys in front of the dog for their attention. I usually use his Bad Cuz or a Wubba, although treats will work if I am going for a series of pictures (I just continuously chuck hotdog pieces in front of him the moment he loses interest).


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## GsdLoverr729

I'll definitely try, when Matt returns from Conn., to get him to help me out  Maybe I can get one using someone else or a toy/stick/food before then. Great idea!!!


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## qbchottu

Rei said:


>


Absolutely gorgeous. How could I have missed this one?? That weight suits him so much better - I am so happy with his defined waist. He is maturing. It is noticeable. Beautiful!!


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## Rei

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I'll definitely try, when Matt returns from Conn., to get him to help me out  Maybe I can get one using someone else or a toy/stick/food before then. Great idea!!!


Best of luck! I try to reel friends in to help out occasionally. They usually wonder what in the world is going on, and just finally decide that I'm flat out crazy.



qbchottu said:


> Absolutely gorgeous. How could I have missed this one?? That weight suits him so much better - I am so happy with his defined waist. He is maturing. It is noticeable. Beautiful!!


Thank you very much, that means a lot to me! I was also just thrilled to have him back in shape again. I have a lot of appreciation for dogs in good physical condition (especially considering the health benefits), so it felt good to flip back to the past pictures and see that. And luckily, it is fairly easy to maintain that once we get him to the point. 

It surprises me how much he continues to change in maturity. I thought he was done at 2 years, but the difference in the last year (between ages 2 and 3) was astounding. I have no doubt that he'll continue to change, even at 3 1/2. No complaints here!


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## GsdLoverr729

LOL! Luckily, my two best friends each own a shepherd. And they understand my OCD nature completely. One has a working line, the other has an ASL. 
So we all work together on our stacking, learning about the sports, learning conformation, etc. One of them would like to get involved in SchH or SaR (I want to try SchH sooo badly!), so we both obsess over that. And my friend with the showline is more on the conformation/show side of learning.

Sooo never alone :3
Matt, however, thinks I'm a lunatic


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## Xeph

You know how I feel about Trent  HE has a beautifully high wither. Your stacks have also improved greatly in the time you've had him.

He is a wonderful representative of the breed


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## Xeph

> I do agree though that Xeph's pic is a very pretty dog. A bit longer than I'm used to seeing


AKC calls for a longer dog than the SV standard  AmLines do have a tendency to go too long, though. My young bitch is shorter coupled

Correct coupling


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## GsdLoverr729

She's pretty too :wub: 
She looks more like the ASL dogs I've met so far lol, in length/height ratio.  I like that her topline doesn't slope down like "\" It's pretty gradual imo... Nice  Looks like she has a nice tail too!


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## Xeph

She does! I am also a nutter about tails! Short tails annoy me to no end!

The other thing I love about this girl is her pasterns. Our AmLines also have a tendency to have pasterns that are far too weak (Mogwai has this issue)


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## GsdLoverr729

Hers do look pretty good against my diagrams (I feel like such a nerdy newb >.>). 
A lot of the ASL dogs I've met have actually had bigger problems with terrible topline slopes, and cow hocks :/


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## Xeph

I can make the above bitch look fairly extreme if I want to. One thing you really need to learn (and it is hard at first) is to see the difference between a dog that is truly extreme and a dog that is stacked to look that way.

A topling can drop rather sharply if stacked the right way. Topline does not necessarily indicate true angulation.

There are all sorts of tricks to make a dog look more extreme than it is.


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## GsdLoverr729

I'm not talking about dogs who look extreme in a stack, I'm talking dogs who are so sloped that their backs are like "\" when they're trotting, stacking, standing, etc. I have seen a few dogs that looked fine until their owners stacked them, and then APPEARED to have a lot more angulation. But when they moved or weren't stacked I could see that they weren't too sloped after all lol.
And with hocks so weak that they not only turn inward but make it clear the dog struggles walking.

I have also seen my fair share (for my inexperience) of ASL dogs who I quite like the look, movement and personality of. All in the breeding/genetics


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## Xeph

Ahhh, I see what you're saying 

Mirada's looser in ligamentation than I'd like, but she won't knit you any new clothing going away. She's a pretty wet dog in general, though.

Vixie and Wesson are much dryer in movement and overall appearance.

Wesson


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## GsdLoverr729

None of their hocks seem to turn inward, I like that. I also like her expression and feminine face. Nice slope again... And she looks to be about the same length/height ratio as Koda is 

And another nice tail :wub:


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## Xeph

Hocks turn in for a number of reasons as well. Loose ligaments, overstretched, or just a general growth spurt.

Mirada's hocks turned inward for a little while at around 4.5-5 months old. She had this growth spurt and had a TON of rear and was all awkward and floppy.

Then she grew up, LOL


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## GsdLoverr729

Ahhh, that makes sense  
You're the first to explain that to me  This is why I love this forum. I learn in person, yes. But I also learn a ton from everyone on here. And yall don't give me dirty looks for getting it wrong or asking questions


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## Rei

Xeph said:


> You know how I feel about Trent  HE has a beautifully high wither. Your stacks have also improved greatly in the time you've had him.
> 
> He is a wonderful representative of the breed


Thank you, that makes me so happy to hear, especially coming from you. Because you (hopefully) know how much I value and respect your opinion and expertise!



GsdLoverr729 said:


> Ahhh, that makes sense
> You're the first to explain that to me  This is why I love this forum. I learn in person, yes. But I also learn a ton from everyone on here. And yall don't give me dirty looks for getting it wrong or asking questions


Oh, Jackie is the BEST :wub:

She has been teaching me to "talk Shepherd" for the last 4 years and still counting. She has never lost patience with my stupid questions, never been condescending, and always has genuinely tried to help me to the best of her abilities. 

When it comes to learning about conformation and structure, I really appreciate how willing people like Jackie, qbchottu, Lisa, and Carmen are to share their knowledge.


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## GsdLoverr729

I agree! I usually don't have to ask all my questions because other members do, but I love how when I do ask questions there isn't a single person who ridicules me. At least not in good humor 

Update on the pics of Koda's dad- The breeder DID respond. He sad he'll have some pics of mom, dad, and the grandparents on each side for me within a few days.  So hopefully he'll stay true to his word and send some. I'll post em if he does.


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## Xeph

Kymmey, getting it wrong helps you to get things right! It's hard when you are wrong, but it's part of learning.

So you can see what I was talking about, here are two pics of Mirada as she started going stagey.

Mirada when her rear went nuts:









And when she got wicked long and went soft:









You can also see how down she was on her pasterns. They did come up, but are weak.


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## GsdLoverr729

I see... They look stronger in the second. But she doesn't look as stable as some of the other dogs in the thread or that I've seen. 

This is so exciting! Learning I mean lol. Not her pasterns being low


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> Coat: I wouldn't mind a tad more plush to his coat but I don't think he's overly tight coated


Are you kidding? His coat is perfect. Maybe even a bit TOO plush.... look at that brush of a tail!  I love the way a well-groomed plush coat looks, but in practical terms, a nice tight stock coat is so much easier to care for.



Rei said:


> A more recent stack (lost weight, got in shape, appears more alert, and was recently groomed down)


He looks GREAT! Perfect weight, I think.


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## Xeph

The dog just posted is the same dog I posted on page 1  So you can see how much they change.

Even better, here's a photo I meshed together the other day.

Top photo is her at almost 3 years of age, bottom photo is her at 15 months


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## GsdLoverr729

WOW! She looks so different! If you hadn't told me, I would have assumed it was two different dogs xD


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## Xeph

Yup  Big changes. BTW, her color is the same as it was when she was younger. She is unbathed in the top photo, and it was taken on an overcast day. The bottom photo she was fresh from a bath, and it was bright out.


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## GsdLoverr729

:O I will never cease to be amazed by the effect of bathing, wet vs dry, and lighting. 

She's a pretty girl though. Doesn't look quite as long in those two lol! I'm in LOVE with that mask :wub:


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## Xeph

> Doesn't look quite as long in those two lol!


Angle of the photo plus she's turning a little 



> I'm in LOVE with that mask


Isn't it fabulous? She made me fall in love with dark dogs


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## GsdLoverr729

OHHH! Ok! Makes a difference for sure o-o Such little things xD If I wasn't writing this down. I would probably be lost hahaha!

It is stunning!!! My first guy had a pure black face, and I adored it. Second one barely had a mask at all (he really just had a small amount of black on his muzzle), and Koda has some mask. But I always love dogs with dark faces. Some of my favorite forum dogs are Rei's Trent, Liesje's Nikon, and 4score's Walter. I just adore watching the pictures posted of them :wub:


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## Liesje

Freestep said:


> Are you kidding? His coat is perfect. Maybe even a bit TOO plush.... look at that brush of a tail!  I love the way a well-groomed plush coat looks, but in practical terms, a nice tight stock coat is so much easier to care for.


LOL he's also wet and fluffed in that picture. He actually has less coat than Pan (pure working lines). I don't like too tight or too short of a coat because they tend to look dry (especially here where it is cold and dry a lot and we are battling itchies all winter) and I think a nice coat gives a more fluid, smooth look to the dog. A tight coat is going to show every imperfection. I don't need a plush coat in terms of a fluffy show line dog but I like there to be some length and luster to the coat. I don't find any difference in terms of care.

Nikon's coat is just starting to come back in, hopefully in time for his breed survey, and he's finally got a little "pants" going on!


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## Xeph

It is the WORST when they lose their pants!

When Mirada goes into season, she looks like she has some horrible thyroid issue going on because her coat just starts falling out in clumps. Her belly and back side go completely nekkid, and I just hide her away until she has hair again x.x


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## Andaka

Cliff, I would love to see what dogs you think have good conformation. Doc, too. I live to learn.


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## GsdLoverr729

Andaka said:


> Cliff, I would love to see what dogs you think have good conformation. Doc, too. I live to learn.


 I second this!!!


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## Liesje

Xeph said:


> It is the WORST when they lose their pants!
> 
> When Mirada goes into season, she looks like she has some horrible thyroid issue going on because her coat just starts falling out in clumps. Her belly and back side go completely nekkid, and I just hide her away until she has hair again x.x


Luckily Nikon doesn't have the extremes of being in heat (or nursing a litter) but when he's out of coat I can brush him for an hour and only get one brush full. I wish he had a *little* more coat because he's been very slow to mature physically, which is not a bad thing but sometimes I think he looks a little scrawny and narrow. When it's damp outside (like if we're training and it just rained or is kind of misty) he looks better because the humidity gives his coat more body.


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## carmspack

I'll have some of this please V Pushkaß vom Haus Himpel


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## carmspack

someone wanted to see the slant in motion


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## carmspack

Love this one - Tino V Tino vom Felsenschloß and Illa V Illa von der Mittelhäuser Flur who reminds me of my Sabrina's mothers line , and Illa's son Wotan who is impressive in his strength Wotan vom Gleisdreieck and Sando V Sando vom Haus Iris and Zorro V Zorro vom Laager Wall and Ulf V Ulf vom Haus Iris and Kilo Carmspack Kilo
and Jim V Jim von der Stadt Schmalkalden 

whew- one stop shopping at the DDR store !


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## carmspack

add this guy to the list V Cash von Wizards Hof 

and this V Seiko von der Burg Haidstein and this 1966/68 GV CH (US) Yoncalla's Mike 

and 
Carmspack Beau


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## GsdLoverr729

How do you find so many good-lookin dogs? :wub:


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## JakodaCD OA

This was my Zorro vom Laager Wall grandson,(out of Klockows Wasdy PP Sch/AM Showlines) Dodge, RWD his first show when he was 11 months old. He was my 'perfect' dog.


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## carmspack

Jakoda he is stunning !! Look at that gorgeous front. I would have that dog in a heart beat . Strong back . Balanced front and back .


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## carmspack

"How do you find so many good-lookin dogs" I have others up my sleeve. A dog has to be more than visually pleasing , the conformation has to have a balance and correctness to it for best function. I always have these dogs in mind as a benchmark to strive for .
So much for the ugly working dogs .


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## GsdLoverr729

Maybe when I'm more experienced I'll have some good dogs to show new people too 

I know temperament, drives and work ability are all really important. I'm just trying to take it one step at a time. And you guys here don't get rude with me like other people who I try to learn from in person. Lol. 

Jakoda- Zorro is GORGEOUS! I love how he's built! Great in show, but also looks like he has the ability to work with the best of them!


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## Liesje

carmspack said:


> Carmspack Beau


OK there's a lot to like about this dog but I especially like his face/expression. I know that it doesn't *really* matter but for me to really want to look at a dog on and off all day every day I have to like his expression. Not just having a nice head or earset or even a full dark mask. I like a "strong" looking muzzle (not sure if that's the best term?) without the head being overdone (like some of the bear-heads the WGSL have now) but I like how the expression kind of balances it out, the dog looks powerful, noble, and gentle all at the same time.


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## JakodaCD OA

Carmen, thank you, Dodge was a once in a lifetime dog. He was 'perfect' in my eyes, inside and out, I should have cloned him If I could find 'that' again, I'd also take them in a heartbeat.

I think Beau (above) is what I like as well.


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## martemchik

GsdLoverr729 said:


> Maybe when I'm more experienced I'll have some good dogs to show new people too
> 
> I know temperament, drives and work ability are all really important. I'm just trying to take it one step at a time. And you guys here don't get rude with me like other people who I try to learn from in person. Lol.
> 
> Jakoda- Zorro is GORGEOUS! I love how he's built! Great in show, but also looks like he has the ability to work with the best of them!


What do you mean people get rude? Like when they point out flaws in your dog? Or other dogs? It's really the only way to learn. At my club people will tell you if you ask what is wrong with your dog. But the ones I talk to know that I have a working line and am just trying to learn about what is looked at in AKC and how my dog stacks up. People are blunt, and mostly very objective. Lots of times I hear "you need a thick skin" but I don't think its that, I think you just have to realize that these people are looking at your dog as a breeding prospect and not as the love of your life. Having conformation faults doesn't make that dog any worse of a GSD pet than a conformation champion, its just the way they're genetically built.

Don't know how I feel about hearing people get rude about something like that. I've heard of new people getting their feelings hurt when they ask a question about their dog without realizing that the person answering will be looking at the dog like an AKC judge would and aren't really going to take the fact that you love the thing like a child into consideration when they tell you about it. The good breeders at my club will even tell you about the faults on their dogs. They know how hard it is to get that "perfect" GSD and don't pretend that they have one (even when the bitch has been Grand Vixtrex of US).


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## GsdLoverr729

martemchik said:


> What do you mean people get rude? Like when they point out flaws in your dog? Or other dogs? It's really the only way to learn. At my club people will tell you if you ask what is wrong with your dog. But the ones I talk to know that I have a working line and am just trying to learn about what is looked at in AKC and how my dog stacks up. People are blunt, and mostly very objective. Lots of times I hear "you need a thick skin" but I don't think its that, I think you just have to realize that these people are looking at your dog as a breeding prospect and not as the love of your life. Having conformation faults doesn't make that dog any worse of a GSD pet than a conformation champion, its just the way they're genetically built.
> 
> Don't know how I feel about hearing people get rude about something like that. I've heard of new people getting their feelings hurt when they ask a question about their dog without realizing that the person answering will be looking at the dog like an AKC judge would and aren't really going to take the fact that you love the thing like a child into consideration when they tell you about it. The good breeders at my club will even tell you about the faults on their dogs. They know how hard it is to get that "perfect" GSD and don't pretend that they have one (even when the bitch has been Grand Vixtrex of US).


I don't mean just pointing out flaws. I asked for a critique on Koda here to HEAR her faults, remember?  Having her flaws pointed out helped me to learn. And I don't mind that. Now, when a woman said something in a snotty voice while I was just watching dogs in the ring and Koda was laying down next to me (I hadn't said anything to her or asked her anything), that's when I nearly lost my temper. I accept critiques as learning experiences. Regardless of what dog it is aimed towards. I do not accept someone saying my dog is ugly because she looks different from the show dogs all around us though. And yes, that really was her reason. Later she mentioned short hair but one of her three dogs had even shorter fur so I really think that she was trying to cover for herself.
At one point I asked which dog in the ring had the best ear placement (directed at someone I know in the show who is very nice). A passing woman snickered to her friend and responded, "Not your dog." Was that necessary? She was a grown woman, I was learning, and I asked about the dogs in the ring. 
What I mean is that they often roll their eyes, will get a mocking tone to their voices, say things like "Well OBVIOUSLY the dog is blahblahblah... Don't you know ANYTHING?" or make an "Ugh" sound. I find all of those things very rude. Particularly when directed at someone just trying to learn. I know it at the very least discouraged me from asking questions.


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## cliffson1

THERE are some very rude, snotty, and boorish people in the dog world that only look to criticize as opposed at looking at the complete picture. I see rude all the time and call it out because most times there rudeness is accompanied with not as much knowledge as they think.....BUT....there are plenty of class people here who can tell you the same thing without being classless...you keep learning young lady!


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## GsdLoverr729

Thank you, Cliff  
I don't view those people as a reason to stop learning (though they sometimes do make me lose my enthusiasm for a few minutes... I bounce back fast). It usually just makes me want to learn more so that when someone else is trying to learn, I can help them and be one of the people proving that you don't have to be a snood to get involved in show


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## Xeph

> It usually just makes me want to learn more so that when someone else is trying to learn, I can help them and be one of the people proving that you don't have to be a snood to get involved in show


You sound exactly like I did when I was your age  The people you described in your previous post are why I try so hard to be kind to those trying to learn.

Also, a snood is what you often see dogs like Cockers and Basset Hounds wearing at a show. Keeps the ears clean


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## GsdLoverr729

Xeph said:


> You sound exactly like I did when I was your age  The people you described in your previous post are why I try so hard to be kind to those trying to learn.
> 
> *Also, a snood is what you often see dogs like Cockers and Basset Hounds wearing at a show. Keeps the ears clean*


 LOL! I've never known that! Everyone in my family has always used it to describe snotty people  Or as my mom says, "Snoody." 
Too funny :rofl:


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## Freestep

GsdLoverr729 said:


> LOL! I've never known that! Everyone in my family has always used it to describe snotty people  Or as my mom says, "Snoody."
> Too funny :rofl:


I believe the term is "Snooty"! A "snood" is what you see Afghan hounds wearing around their ears. A "snoot" is on the other end of the leash.


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## Xeph

http://www.ballyhoodogs.com/snoodBtnc.jpg <--English Cocker in a snood xD


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## GsdLoverr729

Lmao Freestep, Xeph just said that  
But I spelled it exactly how my mother does  Of course she MEANS "snooty" but... I'm not sure I want to correct her o-o


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## Lucky Paw

wildo said:


> Well, Pimg isn't a model of conformation, but in her critique thread I was told be two different people that she has a "very nice croup." And so when I am critiquing other dogs, I admit that I often look back at this picture as kind of a guideline to croup length and angle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pimg also has nice tight feet. You can see her rear toes are held tight in the stack picture above, and in this picture below- you can see even when her weight is on them, she still holds her front feet tight, not splayed out all over:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to faults- Pimg is flat withered, has a pronounced T11 dip (break in top line), has a short upper arm, and is very poorly pigmented.


 
she is a nice dog, i just had my dog mate with a female the same color and cant wait for a black and red puppy she didnt have any white, i see your dog does have some white on the chest.


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## carmspack

Liesje said:


> OK there's a lot to like about this dog but I especially like his face/expression. I know that it doesn't *really* matter but for me to really want to look at a dog on and off all day every day I have to like his expression. Not just having a nice head or earset or even a full dark mask. I like a "strong" looking muzzle (not sure if that's the best term?) without the head being overdone (like some of the bear-heads the WGSL have now) but I like how the expression kind of balances it out, the dog looks powerful, noble, and gentle all at the same time.


Looks can be deceiving . Yes this dog was kindly and gentle - but he was a protection dog for one of Canada's publishing / media barons!! 
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_ [URL="http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.germanshepherds.com%2Fforum%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D193960%26amp%3Bpage%3D11&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcarmspack.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FBeau.jpg"]Report this image[/URL]Carmspack Beau_


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## Liesje

That's what I mean. I don't think a top protection dog should look gnarly and wolfish or have a crazed expression.


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