# Got to see our puppy last night! PICS!



## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Went over to the place we are getting our puppy from. I cant believe how big they have got since the last time we saw them, they are up and about and pretty active. Only 1 question, at how many weeks can u tell if they will be long hair? thanks

We had to take pics, I am a camera happy man!!









And excuse my hippy hair, it was so windy yesterday, ha.

They are investigating who is outside there house









Me holding one, mama makin sure I am being careful, she is so caring









my wife holding one of the females









Play time!

















Here is me with the sire, his name is TinBear, he is really nice dog, HUGE! he is only like 1!

















Us leaving, "hey you guys cant leave, I say u have to stay"


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Congratulations on your new puppy!!! Is it gonna be a male or a female that you are getting??
My only concern is that the sire or Daddy of the litter is only a year old...







You cannot do their hip xrays until they are at least 2yrs old...I wonder why the breeder already used him as a stud?


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

What a great looking litter! You two must be super excited!! The parents look very sweet tempered, and they are gorgeous! Have you picked out your puppy yet, or will you wait til the day you pick up?


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

thanks, we are getting a female. We kinda picked one out last night, but we will wait a few more weeks and pick one for sure.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Look at all the little cuties! We're getting our puppy in July - I could burst with anticipation.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Ah congrats! They all look so sweet.


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## chevysmom (Feb 15, 2008)

So cute! Great photos~


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Nice pups, but I totally agree with Superpup. One year of age is way too young for breeding.. that's like a young teenager having a kid! Are there proven hip certifications on the male? OFA will only certify at two years of age minimum. Not to start one of "those" threads, but that's enough concern to make me run away very quickly in the opposite direction. I'd be really worried about things going wrong later on with my precious pup, so I am a firm believer in doing everything correctly right from the start to stack the deck as much as possible in favor of getting a GOOD lifetime companion! 



> Quote:We kinda picked one out last night, but we will wait a few more weeks and pick one for sure.


That's another thing that worries me. A good breeder almost always picks the pup for the owner because they know the pups better than anyone and can make the best match possible. Even an experienced person can't jump into a litter and pick the best puppy as well as a good breeder! What if you want a quiet one and you pick the quiet pup, only to find out that every time you've visited, the pup just got done with a marathon of playing and happened to be napping or chill, then you get it home only to find out it's a whirling dervish! The breeder will know these things. So yes, they're cute, ALL puppies are cute, but please choose your future family member very carefully!


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

DianaM


So you are saying that we shouldn't get a pup from these people?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I would suggest making a post in the breeding section, perhaps under "Choosing a Breeder," and ask about those points. Ask if it is a good idea to breed a 1 y/o dog without hip certifications and ask if it is a good idea to pick a pup without breeder input. We have a lot of very experienced, dedicated breeders and fanciers on this board who may give you interesting responses. 

This country has OFA and PennHIP for certifications. They are both different, with Penn certifying very early and OFA certifying at two years of age. Germany A-stamps at 1 year of age for their hip certs. So yes, there is variance on *when* certs are done but it is generally agreed that it is NOT a good idea to breed a dog earlier than full maturity. There are things that surface around 18-24 months of age that may not be present at a year of age, things that may not want to be bred and passed on. The GSD is rife with hip (and elbow) problems, so any breeder that is NOT diligent on at minimum hip certifications should be written off. Of course, parents with good hips can still produce puppies with bad hips (there are lots of genetics involved in hip dysplasia) but it certainly reduces the risk. 

As far as picking a puppy willy-nilly, it's very tough to do. You are not there 24/7 but the breeder is. The breeder will see things you may never notice on your visit. Maybe your "star puppy" actually is way too drivey and pushy, something that could overwhelm an owner if they're not prepared. Or maybe your "star puppy" is nice and calm but actually lacks confidence and is more fearful, again not something you would want to deal with. 

These are things I'd look for when choosing a breeder:
1) Health certifications and clearances, the more, the merrier!
2) Not breeding immature dogs
3) Titled dogs that tell me that yes, these dogs possess proper temperament and are most likely to produce excellent canine citizens
4) Breeders who can tell me what their program goals are, what the goals are of a particular breeding, and why they put that bitch together with that stud. I want to know all the whys of the mating! Why THAT stud instead of that other one? If they bred out of convenience because they own both sire and dam, that's not a good thing. If they own both sire and dam and bred them together because the pedigrees combine well, that's another story!

Do your homework! A good breeder will support you for the rest of your puppy's life and provide you with an outstanding family companion, one that has been carefully chosen to match your desires, needs, and goals.


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the info Diana. I will be talking this over with my wife today.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Wes, I don't want to burst your bubble, I know you and your wife must be very excited. But I have to agree with Diana, unfortunately this sounds like a back-yard-breeder and I too would be concern with health issues. Also, just because the parents are sweet, doesn't mean they are sound. I have had 2 GSDs that are sweet as can be with people but terrified of their own shadow, both from back-yard-breeders, both with health (one was severely dysplastic by the time she was 10 months old) and temperament issues.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

At a minimum, you owe it to yourself to visit other breeders---just so you have something to compare to. ALL puppies are adorable. But this is going to be a very long term commitment for you and your wife. Go into it with a clear head (puppy breath is intoxicating!), some good info (you've got us!), and do some homework. Visit several breeders and you'll start to get a feel for the huge variety that exists in this breed. I bet that within 2 hours drive from you there are half a dozen breeders. And breeders from anywhere in the U.S. will ship a puppy; that's a common thing. 

Beware the bargain-priced pup. The cost of the dog is a pittance compared to what you will pay over the dog's lifetime. One vet bill can easily make up the difference between a BYB pup and one from a good breeder. 

Obviously, we don't know this breeder or their dogs. They could be awesome. Just do your homework and ask the right questions. 

Good luck!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd definately go over to the "choosing a breeder" section and look around. There's some pretty good info there on how to find a good one.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Luca_stl
> Beware the bargain-priced pup. The cost of the dog is a pittance compared to what you will pay over the dog's lifetime. One vet bill can easily make up the difference between a BYB pup and one from a good breeder.


My back-yard-bred GSD has already cost me well over $2,000 in vet bills. I could have gotten and AWESOME pup from a reputable breeder with that money and less!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Just be forewarned that good breeding cannot guarantee you a healthy pup. No breeder on the face of the earth of any animal can hand you an 8 week old and tell you that this pup will never be sick a day in its life and never have a single issue and will be a perfect pet. These are dogs, not wind-up toys! But going with a good breeder who health-clears and temperament-tests breeding stock with REAL tests (not a herding cert, not a CGC, not a TT but schutzhund, tracking, herding *title,* higher obedience levels, etc) and knows the lineage and knows the good and bad of the pedigrees can stack the odds in your favor and give you the best pup for your money. Also, don't think that a high price tag is an indicator of quality, but be aware that a good GSD puppy is *rarely* less than $800 from any lines. The norm for working lines is $1000-$2000, German showline pups tend to start around $2000. That's just the beginning! This is not a cheap breed. Visit the health section for testament to that.









I guess I'm the bubble-burster here. The reality of the GSD breed is not all sunshine and happiness but if you do your homework, the rewards make the effort and time and money completely worth it. A good GSD will be active without being hyper, very intelligent, biddable, easy to train (if done right), easily motivated, good protective instinct without being overly fearful and defensive, versatile, polite with strangers but very loving and fun with its family and close friends. You shouldn't have to worry about a fearful, aggressive dog, one that is not trustworthy around people and bad with kids. You want a lifetime companion, not a lifetime burden. 

If you feel overwhelmed, you can request breeder recommendations in your area, or if you're willing to ship, breeder recommendations in general! In the "Choosing a Breeder" section, post your location, how far you are willing to go, whether you would be willing to ship in a pup, and as many details as possible on what you're looking for in a GSD, what your ideal GSD is, what you plan to do with the pup, what activities you may want to participate in, your experience level, what you DON'T want or what you would not be comfortable with, and anything else you'd feel relevant. A lot of people say they don't want a show or working dog as if to say that they don't care if the parents work or show or do anything, but that is a CRUCIAL part in helping to determine the qualities (or lack thereof) of the litter. Parents that work and show will likely produce puppies with ability and brains to work and the beauty of a good GSD. If Mom was breeder/handler/owner trained in schutzhund and Dad is an urban search and rescue dog with major disaster deployments under his belt (er.. collar?), chances are you will have some very well adjusted, excellent representatives of the breed as opposed to A) Nice dad and B) Mom's good with kids.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

> Quote: The reality of the GSD breed is not all sunshine and happiness but if you do your homework, the rewards make the effort and time and money completely worth it.


ditto. 

Other breed fanciers would probably argue the point, but I think there are other breeds where the back-yard-breeder issue is less of a crap shoot. Some breeds are just easier temperament-wise, or have fewer critical genetic health issues. 

The chances of doing okay with a Golden, Daschund, or Beagle, among others, are better, IMO, than with a GSD. The GSD's well-deserved popularity has been its biggest downfall.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMI would suggest making a post in the breeding section, perhaps under "Choosing a Breeder," and ask about those points. Ask if it is a good idea to breed a 1 y/o dog without hip certifications and ask if it is a good idea to pick a pup without breeder input. We have a lot of very experienced, dedicated breeders and fanciers on this board who may give you interesting responses.


Wes, I'm not advising against doing this, since it is part of a buyer's "homework" during the search for a breeder. However, I will tell you that you are likely to get some ugly responses. IF people can be civil it CAN be helpful. Some people on this forum have been a little harsh with attacking breeders...a thread that I started by asking people's opinions on a particular breeder had to be closed by the moderator because people were being tasteless with their comments. This was upsetting for me considering I came here to get help and people decided to act in a way that was not helpful at all. Again, you might get some helpful information there. I am just warning you that people may, in fact, "burst your bubble" by responding carelessly.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Of course, few things piss us passionate GSD people off more than breeders producing poor GSDs or generally contributing to its downfall...










Note: GENERAL comment that is NOT directed at any breeder in particular. I have distaste for any breeder of any breed that is only doing the breed a disservice by breeding.


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

DianaM,

I do understand your (and others') passion for the breed and for its preservation. And I also understand using that passion to direct people to quality breeders. However, there is a tasefull way to do this. And some of the things I have read on the "Choosing A Breeder" forum have been uncalled for. If they weren't, the moderator would not have to close threads. I just think that when a new-comer shows up looking for advice on breeders we could all use a little sensitivity when responding to their posts. After all, the fact that they are a NEW-comer means they simply may not have the knowledge base that others here have. I just wanted to warn Wes that he might get some not-so-kind comments made about the breeder he's looking into so that he isn't caught off guard. Had someone warned me, I probably would not have been so taken aback by it.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

The sire is gorgeous but no way would I be interested in this "breeder".


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

First let me thank everyone in this thread for all the great advice and info. I feel no way that I am being attacked or anything, I am a noob to this forum, and my wife and I are still learning about GSD.

I had another number for a another breeder stored in my ipod touch, I called the guy a couple weeks ago, but we were so set on getting a pup from the first place I kinda blew it off. I called him back earlier, had a nice talk with him, all his dogs are OFA certified, and healthy. He has been breeding for 10+yrs and he says he loves GSDs. I told him what we wanted in a pup/dog, easy going, lap dog, prob 80% of the time living in our house. He said we should get a female, that is what we wanted anyway, but it was good to hear all the info he said to me on the phone. I feel much more comfortable with this breeder than the other, my wife feels the same. We are going Saturday afternoon to take a look at his dogs.

Thanks again, sorry for starting a mess...

Wes


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## TxTech (Mar 29, 2008)

Wes you did not start a mess. You are just doing your job of finding a good quality breeder. I am glad that you have had a positive experience thus far on the forum. That definitely makes the search for a breeder less stressful.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Wes that second breeder sounds much better! You did not start a mess, please never think that. Though debates and arguments may be sparked from a simple question. no one has ever learned anything nor advanced anything by not questioning a single thing and always agreeing with everyone else.











> Quote:easy going, lap dog, prob 80% of the time living in our house.


How easy going? I saw that this would be your first shepherd. Are you aware of their mental and physical requirements? I also saw you had an acre for the dog to utilize. While that is awesome, are you also aware that the dog probably won't do anything with all that land unless you are out there with him, playing with him and training him? I only say this because what you posted sounds like a great description for a golden retriever or English bulldog but not so much a GSD and I don't want you to be disappointed. Have you read up on leadership and training? Are you ready to jump into puppy classes with your GSD pup and to continue the training with as many classes as are necessary to promote good behavior and a good bond? Do you have plans for socializing of the puppy, something that is VERY crucial to a GSD? A good GSD is great to train and live with but the same qualities that make a GSD wonderful can also overwhelm people completely unprepared for a dog like this. My GSD mix is very much mostly GSD in his attitude but he'd be way too much for a lot of people (his upbringing and breeding prior to coming here certainly didn't help). If he doesn't get sufficient mental exercise, he turns into a PEST. I could run him to the ground, but unless his brain was also worked, we get bugged and poked and prodded with his kong constantly! It's especially hard when we're both sick (like now)!


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Diana, yes I am aware of the requirements. I have read up on them. I am an outside person, I am ALWAYS outside, I have a shop in my backyard that I go out to work on cars and stuff. Anytime that I am out, she will be out with me. We plan on exercising her and training her to the best of our ability. We will socialize the puppy too, we have people over all the time, my dad lives 4 house down from me, I can take her down there too, my dad has 2 dogs also. Everything you asked me, we plan on doing.







I guess I shouldn't of said lap dog, I meant really being open to people and friendly, don't want her to bite off my neese or nephews hands or something 

My wife and I are a very active couple, we enjoy going to the park to run, we like to do yard work, I love working in my shop. I think the GSD will fit in with us.

I will never own a golden retriever, there is a co worker here in my office that all he talks about is his **** GR, it pisses me off. sorry.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Sounds like a GSD would indeed be a good fit! Do keep us posted on your choice.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Sounds like your active lifestyle will be perfect for a GSD. I'm glad you stopped by here...and that it nudged you to call the second breeder! The fact that he has OFA on his dog goes a LONG way in my book toward being a good breeder. Go visit his pups, keep asking him questions, and really pick his brain about his dogs, how he socializes the pups, etc. Describe to him your "perfect dog" and ask him to watch his litter and be on the lookout for the one that he thinks will be the best for you. 

Again, welcome. We can't wait to meet your new pup! And we demand photos of the trip to see the second breeder. We can't get enough puppy pics.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HBH
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DianaMI would suggest making a post in the breeding section, perhaps under "Choosing a Breeder," and ask about those points. Ask if it is a good idea to breed a 1 y/o dog without hip certifications and ask if it is a good idea to pick a pup without breeder input. We have a lot of very experienced, dedicated breeders and fanciers on this board who may give you interesting responses.
> ...


ridicule breeders and then go see them later for a pup...i dont get it..oh well

anyway, i got my pup from a BYB. i had been looking for a pup from a "good reputable" breeder but became impatient because the breeder i picked because her next litter wasnt expected to be born for another month and then add on the other 8 weeks before they can go home, so i went to a guy close by that had puppies. now i wish i woulda gone with the reputable breeder. nothing against my pup because i wouldnt trade him for the world, but im anticipateing any issues that i may have to deal with because of the fact i got him from a BYB. just be PATIENT!! research research research, it sounds like a lot at first but trust me, u'll appreciate the knowledge.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I did not know what to look for in a breeder. I had somebody who did make a list of all the good or better breeders within 300 miles and ranked them. I didn't have this forum to help me. I got my puppy from the one my friend ranked highest, and my puppy proves to me every day why she was worth it.
I did not even know what German working lines meant. I'm glad that's what I got though.








Dumb luck, that's all it was








Good for you all for doing your homework first.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Wes, I wish you the best in this. 
My eldest was from a breeder that sounded good. Truth is she knew how to talk. Now the eldest is a gem but ... all sorts of stuff came down after I paid for the dog. My youngest was from someone who has had years in GSDs and other involvement. No grief there.
It's hard but I am sure you will love whichever puppy you get! I wouldn't trade my eldest for "all the tea in China." With that in mind, I can't really advise you to forgo one breeder for another... I can wish you the best.


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is very helpful.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Awesome Wes!!! I had not checked on this thread for a few days, and now I see that my little comment about the sire not being OFAed and being that young went a long way.. LOL








I am glad to hear that you contacted the other breeder!!! Good luck with the puppy and when can we see NEW PICS!!!?????


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks superpup, yes I really took ur advice to heart. Well, my wife and I went out to the 2nd breeder on Saturday afternoon. I was def. impressed with there setup. They have 2 females pregnant right now, one is named Honey, and the other Shadow. Honeys mom or dad were white, and she was the only one that wasnt white in the whole litter, so thats why that guy picked, she is so nice, and shadow is cool too, she is mostly black with brown around her legs. He told me shadow is more of a go getter, and Honey is more laid back, Honey did not bark one time, shadow was barking at us a bit. I am thinking about trying to get a female from Honeys litter, she is due in May. But, someone already has 2 females reserved, so we'll see. He has papers on his dogs, references from other people that have got pups from him, his wife is a K-9 trainer, she brought out Pepper, a very smart female, trained well. What are your guys thoughts?

No pics of shadow









Honey

























Lady









Pepper









Duke


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Wes, I am sorry, and don't mean to sound mean - that female is not within standard, and is not a breeding material female if the breeder cares about the BREED STANDARD. She is not colored correctly, which is understandable if she is from a white breeding. She may be a lovely mannered and tempered animal, and I am sure you want a nice tempered pup. But the breed has a standard which defines the appearance and character, and the goal of a breeder should be to produce dogs as close as possible to that standard! 

I don't know what your budget is, or where you are - perhaps that is part of what you are using to screen the place you purchase your puppy. But buying pups from people who do not even try to produce dogs who meet minimal criteria is encouraging and enabling the production of cash flow produced pups by breeders who don't care about the breed. While OFA on these guys is a positive, I don't think that I could personally advise anyone that this is a breeder whose knowledge and judgement it is wise to put alot of trust in. While I understand that you want a pet quality animal, there are breeders conforming to the standard who have pet quality pups too.

Lee


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Wes, I do have to agree with Lee, she has much more knowlegde on the breed than I do, but I know from just looking at those dogs also, that there is not something right here








White GSDs have their fanciers on this board also, and there is nothing wrong with that. I doubt though that any reputable white GSD breeder or a "regular" color GSD breeder would use an offwhite dog like that and breed to a "regular" GSD...
It is good if these dogs have their OFAs done and they are at least over 2 yrs of age, but if you have time, go ahead and look around.
Why don't you post where you live and maybe we can come with some good breeders in your area??


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'd have to agree with Lee. OFA is good, but the rest.... I feel like I'm in the midst of a field of red flags. I think you should ask for recommendations rather than going hit-or-miss. I'll bet you're getting pretty discouraged.









What is your budget? You'd be hard pressed to find a puppy from a GOOD breeder for less than $800, more like $1000 and up is the norm.


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## gsKansan (Mar 24, 2008)

Man, I am getting to the point where I don't even want a dog anymore, this is getting very frustrating. I am not mad at any of you, just this whole thing with breeders is making me mad to say the least. Well I have no idea how much GSD are suppose to cost, so if I have to pay $1000 to get the right dog I will.

I live in Wichita, KS.

Thanks


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Wes - Finding the right breeder can be a very frustrating process.

Are you open to having a pup shipped?
I'm in Oregon and my next pup will from out of state and will have to be flown to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Hi Wes,

I PMed you a couple articles you might find helpful in your breeder/puppy search.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Wes, I know once a person gets "the puppy bug" they want one quick but you are smart to have come here and do your research first. Stick around for a little bit. You should be able to find a wonderful dog and you will learn a lot too.









Don't be discouraged, be encouraged and happy that you were smart enough to learn before you went and bought a puppy!!







. I have seen too many people come to the boards after they rushed into a puppy purchase, only to learn what a mistake they made. You have been given excellent advice.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Wes, it makes us mad that there are so many people out there breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred or not going about breeding the right way, and it also upsets us that people go in with innocent intentions to buy a great family companion and end up with health and temperament problems that ruin the experience. I know it's frustrating but you are absolutely doing the right thing. It's all our hopes that a few weeks or even months of hard work now will pay off in a lifetime companion that you couldn't be more thrilled with.

Hang in there! Listen to Chris Wild, she knows her stuff and we're all bugging her to write that book.


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## Mai (Mar 31, 2008)

Chris,

I want to read the articles too!


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