# E-Collar: Working Stimulation Level



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I was wondering if someone with experience working with E-Collar can help me out here.

I'm trying to find the minimum working level for my dog. I have Dogtra E-Collar and the remote has a LCD screen with a readout. It goes from 0-130. 

I read Lou Castle's articles on ecollar and tried this afternoon to find a good level for Obie. Well, Lou recommend that you test it on yourself first and keep going level by level until you start to feel uncomfortable and then start there with the dog. 

Ok, so for me that's around 20 (I know, I am a wuss, so sue me). I put it on Obie and nothing. 21, 22, 23, 24 ... nothing. Obie just stood there and looked at me like "What the heck are you doing? Why are we just standing here? It's hot outside!" So progressing level by level, I went all the way to 40 before I saw a tiny flinch of his neck muscle. But even at 40 he does not exhibit any of the other signs that Lou talked about (acting like a flea bit him, scratching, moving to another spot). But I'm thinking if I see a flinch, that means he feels it and that should be his working level.

Is that sound right?


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I am certainly no expert on an e-collar, but I think he told you at 20, 21 or 22 he was feeling something. I use an e-collar sometime - not often and I keep it on 20. Right now we are working on keeping off the front door which I just had to replace due this aggression towards the front door when I come home or people ring the door bell. I was told that if I hit the nick bottom and his ears shoot up or he looked surprise, he felt it and that's all I need.

Dont mean to be hopping on your thread but would like to hear what everyone has to say in order to learn.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Flinch is a bad word. Sorry. I meant a twitch.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I also have the Dogtra.

When we started out working with an e-collar that's almost exactly what we did to find the level. You're looking for something very small. An ear twitch (like there's a fly) or a facial twitch or even an eye blink. 

However, I've found that for my dog there are a variety of working levels depending on how much drive the dog is in. So factor that into your calculations. On a low drive activity like a hike I only need the pager or maybe 15. In obedience with the ball, maybe 35. In protection I could get up to 70 before he acknowledged it. And he's fairly sensitive to the electric. It can take even more with our bitch who's very sensitive to the prong and not with the electric. 

For me, it's took a little tweaking until you really have a feel for what works with your dog. Believe me, there will be a time once or twice when your dog will let you know it was too much or not enough based on the reactions you get which can be subtle.


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## amcipar (Feb 9, 2009)

I've also got the dogtra collar. Sig's level is a 19 when we are just say, doing recall work with no distractions, and I all I get is an ear flick. The more distraction or the more excited he gets about something, the more his level needs to be increased for him to respond. Like others have said it's all about tweaking and finding what your dog responds to. Best of luck!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

It all depends on how it is placed.I have a cheap collar but it does the job for what I use it for. Somedays if it is placed good all I need is the 5 or 6 setting other times I can have it at 10 and she doesn't feel it or it doesn't bother her.I make sure it is snug under her chin.Also does yours have different connectors,the things that stick out? If so you may need the longer ones if you aren't using then already.Other than that you just have to play with the settings.Some distractions will take more zap to get there attention.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ok, I'm a dumb dumb. 40 was too high. I did a few recall and he started holding his head kind of crooked on his return to me (head turned away from the ecollar unit). So I lowered it back down to 20 and I'll work from there. 

By the way, is the unit supposed to be right under his chin? I had it to the side , not directly under.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Make sure the collar is tight enough, if not you don't get consistent stims so it'll be impossible to figure out the right level. It needs to be pretty tight. If it's loose, you might stim him once at 40 and he won't seem to feel anything and then you'll do it again and it's way too much.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I usually keep mine to the side for general use, but I do use mine somewhat directionally. If I'm working on downs then I don't want it underneath the chin because that seems to pop my dog's head up. Likewise in heeling I prefer the stim to sort of push my dog into me, rather than away. Now I don't reach down and constantly change the position of my collar, but I try to have it positioned best for what I am working on. And yes it needs to be pretty tight up on the neck.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> I read Lou Castle's articles on ecollar and tried this afternoon to find a good level for Obie. Well, Lou recommend that you test it on yourself first and keep going level by level until you start to feel uncomfortable and then start there with the dog.


I think you've misread my article on this Jason. It does not say to use the level that YOU feel on your dog. It says to find the dog's working level just as you did on yourself. That means starting from zero with the dog, just as you did on yourself. What you feel has nothing to do with what the dog feels. I'd suggest that you read the article again. 



> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin Ok, so for me that's around 20 (I know, I am a wuss, so sue me).


Depending on the model, that's where many people first feel it. 



> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin I put it on Obie and nothing. 21, 22, 23, 24 ... nothing. Obie just stood there and looked at me like "What the heck are you doing? Why are we just standing here? It's hot outside!" So progressing level by level, I went all the way to 40 before I saw a tiny flinch of his neck muscle. But even at 40 he does not exhibit any of the other signs that Lou talked about (acting like a flea bit him, scratching, moving to another spot). But I'm thinking if I see a flinch, that means he feels it and that should be his working level.


This happens with some dogs. But ALL OF THIS (and the issues raised in your later posts, as well) are covered in my articles.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatsky
> However, I've found that for my dog there are a variety of working levels depending on how much drive the dog is in. So factor that into your calculations. On a low drive activity like a hike I only need the pager or maybe 15. In obedience with the ball, maybe 35. In protection I could get up to 70 before he acknowledged it. And he's fairly sensitive to the electric. It can take even more with our bitch who's very sensitive to the prong and not with the electric.


This too is covered in the articles.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

my two dogs have very different levels.

Suggest you put the collar on the dog and just wait until the dog is not focused on you or anything else... wandering yard or laying on the floor awake.

Start with zero and hit stim, repeat scrolling upwards at small integrals until dog pricks ears or looks like something unknown is bothering of causing him to register question...

Start training with that low level and if it doesn't work, slightly increase.

Not only different for each dog, but different for differents days or session.

Example - if one of my dogs focuses on cat, may take an increased stim vs normal training exercise.

Good luck


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your response. I did go back and reread your articles and corrected some of my initial mistakes.

I have two additional questions:

If I understand it correctly, I do not give a command "here" in the beginning of recall training right? I just let the dog wander off and then stim him and pull him back? I don't start adding the voice command until I start doing the switch of direction walks?

Also, today I was out with Obie doing recalls (lvl 20) and the first 4 recalls went perfectly. I hit the "continuous" button and he immediately turned around and trotted back to me (without any leash pressure on my part. I was using the flexi and I didn't have to move the handle at all). But on the fifth time, he blew me off completely. Not only did he not turn around and come back but he actually laid down on the ground and start scratching the collar (something he has not done before - not even when I was mistakingly stimulating him at lvl 40). What's going on there?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinIf I understand it correctly, I do not give a command "here" in the beginning of recall training right? I just let the dog wander off and then stim him and pull him back? I don't start adding the voice command until I start doing the switch of direction walks?


That's correct. I want the dog to figure out what's going on for himself. If you start giving a command at this stage, you become a distraction. 



> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin Also, today I was out with Obie doing recalls (lvl 20) and the first 4 recalls went perfectly. I hit the "continuous" button and he immediately turned around and trotted back to me (*without any leash pressure on my part. *I was using the flexi and I didn't have to move the handle at all). But on the fifth time, he blew me off completely. Not only did he not turn around and come back but he actually laid down on the ground and start scratching the collar (something he has not done before - not even when I was mistakingly stimulating him at lvl 40). What's going on there? [Emphasis added]


What going on is that he may have come to for any number of reasons on the first four reps – But he didn't know that he had to, to make the stim stop. I'd suggest that unless you're an experienced dog trainer that you not _" free–lance"_ the method. It says to pull the leash right from the start so that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the dog to make a mistake. You didn't do that. And so, on the fifth time he didn't know what he was supposed to do. 

Here's something that it says on the site,


> Quote: The protocols are written as they are because they've been found to work after years of testing. If you're a beginner, this is very much a "read and follow the instructions carefully and closely" situation … If you decide to skip a step or modify the protocol you may get the desired result and you may not. You may get what appears to be a good result only to find later on, that a problem has developed because you've skipped a step.


Quite quickly you've seen one of those bad results. Of course you're not required to follow the instructions. But if you don't, you probably won't get the desired result, a dog that recalls no matter how far he is from you and no matter what distractions are present.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Lou! I stand corrected. I certainly don't want to do anything to screw up the dog. I'll ask around and see if I can find someone to work with me on this.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jason there's certainly nothing wrong with getting someone to help. But I don't think that's the problem. I think you're shortcutting the protocol by skipping steps. Perhaps that's because you haven't read it thoroughly or perhaps you think that because you're dog has been responding properly, perhaps because of prior training, you think it's OK. You're not the first one to do this and you're probably not the last. But as you've found, skipping steps leads to problems. I think if you follow the protocols as they're written, you'll be fine.


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