# Snarling and face licking. What was that?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Today Kira met an 8 month old Malanois. It was a friendly meeting, and both dogs were leashed.
As the dogs sniffed each other, Kira just stood there, head and shoulders high, with her TEETH in a SNARL. She wasn't snapping, she just stood there. The other dog took this as an in vittation to lick Kira's mouth.
Each time Kira snarled, the other dog licked. It was a form of ritualistic greeting.

Anyone familiar with this?


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

The other dog was maybe being submissive to her. Saying "hey we can be friends!"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The other dog obviously was submitting to her. Licking is a calming signal Dog Body Language: Lip Licking
http://dogtime.com/dog-speak-face-licking-colleen-safford.html
If your dog continues to show dominant behavior, she better hope all dogs will submit and not challenge her! I would watch her very carefully and not let her be so close that dogs have the option of licking or biting her. Body language for both dogs should be observed before you let them greet each other.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lesley1905 said:


> The other dog was maybe being submissive to her. Saying "hey we can be friends!"


This ^^^
However, Kira may be fear agressive. There was no need for her reaction like that with a submissive puppy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, Kira probably was showing fearfulness...how was her tail set? If she wasn't wagging, it wasn't friendly. Most dogs are dominant/aggressive out of fear...the fight or flight. And because they were both on leash there was no way for the flight to occur.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Some of you know her history. As much as it was peaceful, this is why I posted it. I had a suspicion that this could be a problem down the road.
Kira was pinned in the past, and maybe this is the signal that she was sending, and the reason why it happened.

Two things here that I'm concerned about.

1) if this is a form of dominance, the other dog may not always submit, and there could be a problem.

2) since Kira was pinned a couple times, many of us here had a concern that she may become fear aggressive. Hopefully, this isn't the first sign of this.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

If she has been traumatized it could take a long time for her to get over it.
If she is just warning and allowing the puppy to lick her face, that's not so bad. Using warning gestures isn't always bad because most dogs realize that your dog is just saying she is not in a mood to be messed with. It doesn't necessarily mean she is going to attack.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Was she standing stiff with her hackles (hairs behind her neck and down her back) standing straight up?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

You may have already but if not, locate a good behaviorist that has a strong background in GSD. It goes without saying but will anyway  check references. Save you a lesson I've learned the hard way.

Your pup will learn coping skills, you'll learn the signs to watch for to give her direction before it gets to the teeth showing point.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I should add, a slow wag is not a friendly wag. It is up to you, Anthony to help her get thru the pinning and carry on. Just don't let her be put in situations where she is the one that has to decide how to act. You need to be her brain on some of these new exchanges until she can get over it. Have treats and stay upbeat during the greetings, then walk her away without play/interaction for the first few times. 
Personally, I don't care if my dog ever greets another, as long as there is no reactive behavior, it is all good. I don't need them to play with strange dogs and they don't need it either.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> Personally, I don't care if my dog ever greets another, as long as there is no reactive behavior, it is all good. I don't need them to play with strange dogs and they don't need it either.


Some dogs just don't need to play with other dogs. Just like people, they all don't need to be friends. Not saying you are, but there's no need to force Kira be friends with every dog that passes by if she's not comfortable with it.

Just like Jane mentioned above, as long as she isn't snarling and barking at every dog that passes by on walks, that's good enough for me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Anthony8858 said:


> if this is a form of dominance, the other dog may not always submit, and there could be a problem.


Another perspective:

My old guy Rocky is dominant with most of the dogs he meets. When he meets a strange dog, he's usually standing as tall as he can with his tail out and head high. Most of the time, the other dog submits to him by licking his chin and putting their head down and sidways.

GSDAlphamom also owns a fairly dominant male. We were a little worried about putting the two together when we went hiking for the first time, but we shouldn't have. The two old guys walked up to each other, sniffed each other over and took each other's measure and everything was fine. We hiked together for a couple of hours with no drama whatsoever.

A gentleman down the street from me owns another big, fairly dominant male GSD. We were walking by his house once and the dog was in the front yard. Again the two dogs met, sniffed each other, and went on their way. They treated each other with mutual respect. 

No dog is 100% dominant, and no dog is 100% submissive. _When two dogs both have good social skills_, they can often sort out the dominant/submissive thing with minimal drama and without the humans even noticing. That's exactly what happened with Kira and the Mal. The two of them figured out immediately that Kira was dominant. Next time she meets another dog, they might figure out that she is submissive to the other dog. Ultimately, I think it has to do with the dogs knowing canine body language and understanding that their human is the ultimate "alpha" and won't tolerate any funny business.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and if I were the owner of the malinois , I wouldn't let my dog get that close to yours. Seems like they weren't reading the signals either .


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I don't need them to play with strange dogs and they don't need it either.


Great post.
We get enough of that with fostering dogs, I'm not about to drag my dog out and about to "meet" others, because of this very thing. 9x out of 10 it goes well, then there is #10.
There's always going to be a #10.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

When I first got Kira, I too, felt that dog parks would be a nice way to socialize her. However, the few times I've went, it seems that Kira tends to shy away from the wild play, and there's always some sort of problem.

I no longer go to the dog parks. I let her walk right past the fenced area, and occasionally have a little fun from the other side of the fence.

Right now, Kira is only 6 months. She's already been pinned a few times. She probably gives mixed signals, and may be prone to aggression from other dogs.
Because of this, I have a feeling, she might develop a fear bite tendency, and may very well end up being aggressive towards other dogs, when she matures.

I'll continue to socialize her with people, but the _dog project_ is over. I really don't care if she ever plays with someone else's dog ever again.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have any friends with similar sized dogs/ or GSD that Kira can have playdates with? I think dogs playing together is great, as long as the dogs have a relationship. A friend of mine use to take her GSD pup to the dogpark but quit when he started maturing... it wasn't worth it to her to have any trouble start. 
She does have a couple dogs that he can play with. 
Karlo and I use to go on 6 mile walks with them, but we never let the dogs play together, I didn't want any trouble, the dogs got along fine when they walked, but I don't know how two maturing intact males would play, so we didn't chance it.
Here is a shot of them tuckered out after a hike:


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Do you have any friends with similar sized dogs/ or GSD that Kira can have playdates with? I think dogs playing together is great, as long as the dogs have a relationship. A friend of mine use to take her GSD pup to the dogpark but quit when he started maturing... it wasn't worth it to her to have any trouble start.
> She does have a couple dogs that he can play with.
> Karlo and I use to go on 6 mile walks with them, but we never let the dogs play together, I didn't want any trouble, the dogs got along fine when they walked, but I don't know how two maturing intact males would play, so we didn't chance it.
> Here is a shot of them tuckered out after a hike:


Yes, she has a couple pups that I make playmates with. She's fine with them, and so am I.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is not behavior I would expect from a 6 month old puppy. What was the rest of her body doing. Ears back or forward? Tail up, or tucked? Hackles raised, or not? It might not be a bad idea to contact a local trainer to see if they have a puppy socialization class, and can evaluate her behavior with other puppies her age and younger. If she is feeling fearful and apprehensive with other dogs, that may be something she can get over as she learns doggie social skills. If she is truly dominant and leaning toward being dog-aggressive, perhaps she can learn that other dogs are not really a threat to her or her position. Perhaps the trainer or behaviorist can give you some more pointers on how to approach the issue.

I once had a dog that would show her teeth, make horrible growly sounds, gnash her teeth and snark and carry on with the young puppies... and they would lick her teeth and grovel, and that was that. No further aggression. She never actually attacked, bit, or even thought about attacking as near as I could tell by her body language. She was just a very vocal, toothy sort of dog, and wanted to make it clear that she was queen bee. 

That dog helped me raise several puppies and was never mean or unfair to them. In fact, she would often lie in the grass with a puppy between her front legs; she would be opening her mouth in a big, toothy snarl and the puppy would lick her teeth furiously. It almost seemed like she enjoyed the puppy's attentions, and did the open-mouth snarly thing to make the puppy lick.  Then the two would play. She never bullied the puppies, just showed a lot of tooth.

She never did that with other adult dogs. She was dominant, but not aggressive. She would sniff them over, and sometimes play with a friendly adult dog, other times simply ignore them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I too, felt that dog parks would be a nice way to socialize her.


And they would be, if everyone was on top of their dog's body language and behavior. It's not dog parks in and of themselves that are "bad", it's the way that even educated owners such as yourself have a difficult time interpreting dog body language and/or misreading it, and then the rest of the population either doesn't know or doesn't care (or both), and let their aggressive dogs run willy-nilly around that cause problems.

I agree with others, find a few friends and have your own backyard "dog park".


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