# What is angulation?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

We often see threads (especially the critique threads) where someone mentions that a dog has "good angulation." What does this actually refer too? I thought it referred to the angle I've highlighted on these totally random images I found on google images:



















Quite honestly- I'm not even sure what that joint is called. Is it the knee? So is angulation referring to the angle of the knee joint? The WGSD above is about a 90* angle while the ASL GSD is much more acute. I kind of have a feeling that "angulation" is more than just the angle formed at the knee though...

Can clarify for me? Thanks!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

lhczth said:


> This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.


Did you choose this dog for a reason?
I am no expert but, to me, he looks well proportioned and angulated while not being over-angulated. Nice back and topline.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.


Can you clarify what your lines mean on that picture? The front must be the angle (referred to as the "layback"?) of the shoulder, correct? The rear lines I am unclear about- mostly because my dog anatomy terminology is not up to snuff.

Also- is "angulation" always determined by the foreground legs on a stacked dog? In my images, I choose the rear leg in the background. But in yours, you chose the foreground leg.

...But even putting terminology aside- what is "proper" angulation? And does that answer change between who you ask? (As in ASL vs WGSL vs WL)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if the dog is spare on angulation the forward movement will be impeded , or more effort put into it , which is tiring and can't sustain
if the dog's back is too long or roached movement is affected , especially in the quick turns in agility 
if the dog has too much rear angulation then the back end will have lost forward thrust and be wobbly

don't go after an ideal agility dog ---- select an ideal GSD 

we had Marty McCann , who I competed against when I first went into the obedience ring. Terrific person, did very well with his (airedale? - temporary memory lapse) . 
Later on he got involved with fly - ball and border collies , known for speed . 
He and his wife set up one of the most competitive , active , Fly ball leagues McCann vs McCann for people in the GTA , Hamilton area . Untoucheable . Winning all the time. And then they had a breeding program creating dogs specifically for fly ball , agility . Crazy , wild , dogs . Mixes with greyhounds and border collies , and not the stocky Scottish type . The dogs were so extreme that they were only suitable for the sport. 

Select a healthy , directable , dog with good angulation , balanced , in body , balanced in mind -- 

Carmen


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Carmen- in my agility dog thread, you did say to look for proper angulation. I wanted to keep that thread on topic (the pedigree) and so I started this one. I agree (to an extent) on selecting for the "ideal GSD." Problem is, I don't know how to spot the ideal GSD because I don't know what terms like "angulation" actually mean.

Thus this thread.

[Off topic- my "to an extent" comment is in regards to "well bred/balanced" GSDs perhaps not having the flashyness or extreme speed that "sport/performance" GSDs might have. I think there's a spectrum here and I'd stay near the "well bred balanced" end- just perhaps not _all_ the way to the end of the spectrum.]


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wildo, I am the same.
Does angulation refer to the leg, or the back, or the leg joint?
Our vet who is working with Yasmine keeps saying she's "over angulated".
She said her back leg (the upper part whose name escapes me right now) is too long making her cow hocked and weak. I think Yasmine was dealt a bad hand before the vehicle smashed her, but this is what our vet keeps saying.
Is this accurate? Is the leg itself too long, and that makes a dog "over angulated"?
What part of the body is "wrong" to make a dog look this way?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

An interesting thing structurally that was mentioned is it's not just about the angles that are formed at the joints...

It's also abou the length of the bones involved that cause the angles. Think when we see the back legs walking on the ground and the extreme lowered back end, it also goes along with some very long upper leg bones...


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Angulation refers to the angles of the upper limbs. In the front that would be the shoulder and upper arm. In the rear, it refers to the stifle joint, where the upper leg (femur) and middle leg (tibia) come together at the knee. The length of the bones and way they are put together, as well as looseness and tightness of ligaments (particularly in the rear) determine the angulation.

It has nothing to do with the back. 

Most often angulation refers to the rear end, unless the front is specified. In dogs with lots of angulation, typically seen more in American lines, it is due to a long and open stifle (long bones and more obtuse angle where they come together).


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Okay, yeah. It's the stifle that's too long (??) in Yasmine. She has that cow-hocked appearance, which we attributed to her being young and "soft", not much muscle tone since her right leg was so badly damaged.
I don't know if it will change, but our vet said amputating her right leg would not be good due to the "over angulation" of her left/good leg.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

No, msvette, the length of the bone is not changeable (aside from surgical means). It is what it is.

The outer leg is what is being examined when set up, not the inner leg. The inner leg doesn't matter much, or it would be the outer leg and the dogs would be stacked differently xD


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Xeph said:


> The outer leg is what is being examined when set up, not the inner leg. The inner leg doesn't matter much, or it would be the outer leg and the dogs would be stacked differently xD


LOL! That's somewhat circular, no? :rofl:


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What?
Are you saying there's no difference in the dog's bones, etc. but that it's how they are stacked??


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The stack shows the length of bones, it reveals the angulation of all the bones in the dog's rear assembly. 

Sarjette German Shepherds | It is better to deserve honours and have none, than to have them and not deserve them

Note marked angles of rear assembly...croup (pelvis) and long bones rear leg.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So it _is_ the length of the bone? 

This article also had good info - do you find this accurate?

. . : : : Kristoph German Shepherd Dogs in Trinidad and Tobago : : : . .


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The length of the bones affects the degree of angulation at the joints or junctions assessed.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Angulation refers to the angles of the upper limbs. In the front that would be the shoulder and upper arm. In the rear, it refers to the stifle joint, where the upper leg (femur) and middle leg (tibia) come together at the knee. The length of the bones and way they are put together, as well as looseness and tightness of ligaments (particularly in the rear) determine the angulation.
> 
> *It has nothing to do with the back.*
> 
> Most often angulation refers to the rear end, unless the front is specified. In dogs with lots of angulation, typically seen more in American lines, it is due to a long and open stifle (long bones and more obtuse angle where they come together).


A roachy back can push down the rear end and affect angulation.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is angulation in the front separate from angulation in the back? Or is the overall angulation looked at? How does excessive angulation it the front or back affect the other? If there is to much in the back, does that push the front up and out of desired angulation?


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> A roachy back can push down the rear end and affect angulation.


Eh...yes and no.

The roachy back has not pushed the rear down. Rather, the pelvis has been moved forward, to accomodate the curvature of the spine. 



> Are you saying there's no difference in the dog's bones, etc. but that it's how they are stacked??


I'm saying that if your dog has long upper thigh bones, nothing will change that. They will always be too long.



> The length of the bones affects the degree of angulation at the joints or junctions assessed


This


> Is angulation in the front separate from angulation in the back?


Yes. The angle of the shoulder blade and angle of the rear may not be the same (depends on what the standard calls for, if you're talking about dogs other than GSDs).

When judging a dog, all of it is considered, taking in which dog is the most balanced, who has too much front for their rear, or too much rear for their front, etc etc etc.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> This is a diagram I did awhile ago. Something to note is how LONG this dog's upper arm was.



Bodo vom Lierburg :wub::wub::wub:


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'm saying that if your dog has long upper thigh bones, nothing will change that. They will always be too long.


Well that's what I was asking on page 1, the vet has noted she's "over angulated" which she seemed to indicate added to the dog's cow-hocked-ness (heh, made that up) and instability.

So the term overangulated (in regards the back end) means the femur is too long and the legs...have no place else to go, for lack of a better explanation? Making them cow-hocked?


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> So the term overangulated (in regards the back end) means the femur is too long and the legs...have no place else to go, for lack of a better explanation? Making them cow-hocked?


Not exactly. It is more likely poor ligamentation along with the excessive length of bone that causes the hocks to rotate inward looking for a place of support and balance.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Generally it means the upper thigh is too long (and often times then so is the lower thigh, as they are supposed to match). Not all will go cowhocked. Strong ligamentation can prevent severe cow hocking, and many dogs naturally cow hock the slightest bit (it's normal), regardless of their angles.

I know it's not comfortable for me to stand with my feet pointed perfectly forward all the time.

ETA: Daphne posted at the same time xD


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well the things in her favor are she's young, and after her whole 6mos. of life being spent with no good nutrition, she's on a good wholesome diet now...do you think things will look up for her after her FHO (of a severely fractured right femoral head) and tibial surgery if she needs that too? 
I just know the vet said she's not a good candidate for amputation of the severely crushed femoral head because of her "over angulation" making the left/good side weak and cow-hocked.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

illustrated gsd standard THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG


----------

