# Aggression Without Signs - Need Advice!



## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

My 9 month old male german shepherd, Mako, has a pretty major problem with human strangers. We initially didn't know what to tell others to avoid when meeting him, so we sought help from our local Petsmart trainers. They told us about eye contact, though they said in their testing him with it he showed no issue, as well as body position (e.g. facing him directly, leaning forward quickly, etc.).

In spite of us being cautious with this, he is very sporatic with his interactions when I (mom) is holding the leash. My husband says he's not nearly as bad or inconsistent when I am not there. 

This morning we went to drop him off at a dog day care (that he has been to and been boarded at recently!), and at first he was excited - tail wagging, moving toward the attendant without ANY signs of anxiety. She leaned forward to say hi, using an excited voice, pet his head, then he randomly started barking and lashing out..actually nipping the arm of her sweatshirt a bit! Needless to say he was not welcome at day care this morning.

We do not know what to do. The daycare attendant said that he didn't show any issues with eye contact and she would have been more cautious/slow to respond to him if he had showed any sort of signs. As we stood there talking he did not continue to bark or pull on the leash; he just sat there calmly and eventually even laid down (though he was shaking a little bit).

Any ideas and/or advice would be very helpful!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

kmgomez said:


> My 9 month old male german shepherd, Mako, has a pretty major problem with human strangers. We initially didn't know what to tell others to avoid when meeting him, so we sought help from our local Petsmart trainers. They told us about eye contact, though they said in their testing him with it he showed no issue, as well as body position (e.g. facing him directly, leaning forward quickly, etc.).
> 
> In spite of us being cautious with this, he is very sporatic with his interactions when I (mom) is holding the leash. My husband says he's not nearly as bad or inconsistent when I am not there.
> 
> ...


All wrong! If you must leave him at a doggy daycare(not a fan here) find another one. Leaned over him, excited voice, petting his head, all things people who know dogs avoid. 

PetSmart is not a good source for training advice. 
Nine months old? Trying out his big boy pants, likely. I would up the obedience and make sure he is getting exercise both mental and physical.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Is he neutered?


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Is he neutered?


Yes, he is!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Some GSDs want to approach people on their own terms, rather than have people approach them. We tell strangers to ignore our gal-dog, since she is like that. It makes a very big difference in how she deals with strangers. 

Petsmart, that is always a gamble if you are going to find a good trainer who can help with more than the basics. You might want to find another sitter or day-care that understands the differences in dog temperaments, etc. A good dog person might have greeted your pup more calmly and low key, which might have been just fine with him. Instead he had to say, "oh no, no touching the head today you squeeky person"


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

Thank you all for the quick responses!

He is so great with us and my parents, who are helping us with our home remodel and are at our house almost every weekend, so I always feel overwhelmed when these situations happen *seemingly* out of nowhere. Obviously, we have a lot to learn. One of the Petsmart trainers did offer similar tips about having people ignore him and also stand offset to his position - it's a work in progress, clearly. His excitement to approach her just seemed like a positive cue.

A note: we do not do daycare often. We did it once before we boarded at that location just to try it out (no incidents, just some early anxiety). Then we boarded with no incidents and much less anxiety. Today we gave it a try because my dad was at the house alone to meet up with an electrical inspector (i.e. stranger in the house) and no access to outside due to a contractor with a tractor moving between the front and backyards.

It was supposed to be so seamless..


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, agreed, all the wrong approaches by the "professionals". A GSD doesn't bite without giving off warning signs. They just didn't see them and it shows that they don't understand dog behavior and language. I had to teach our vet techs and vets to not use this infantile baby voice on them, but do the exam as a matter of fact; no treats, no squealing, just a no-nonsense approach. Luckily they complied and there were no further protests from Deja. 
Hopefully you can skip day care and leave him home, find a good trainer who is not too worried about ditching the clicker and treats if needed. He is just a bratty adolescent who knows what he can get away with and with whom.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

kmgomez said:


> My 9 month old male german shepherd, Mako, has a pretty major problem with human strangers. We initially didn't know what to tell others to avoid when meeting him, so we sought help from our local Petsmart trainers. They told us about eye contact, though they said in their testing him with it he showed no issue, as well as body position (e.g. facing him directly, leaning forward quickly, etc.).
> 
> In spite of us being cautious with this, he is very sporatic with his interactions when I (mom) is holding the leash. My husband says he's not nearly as bad or inconsistent when I am not there.
> 
> ...



What did you do when he displayed the aggression?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

kmgomez said:


> Thank you all for the quick responses!
> 
> He is so great with us and my parents, who are helping us with our home remodel and are at our house almost every weekend, so I always feel overwhelmed when these situations happen *seemingly* out of nowhere. Obviously, we have a lot to learn. One of the Petsmart trainers did offer similar tips about having people ignore him and also stand offset to his position - it's a work in progress, clearly. His excitement to approach her just seemed like a positive cue.
> 
> ...


Crate train your dog and put him in his crate when contractors are present. It's how most of us deal with these things and crating will be an invaluable tool throughout his life.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where do you live? Someone here can usually recommend a trainer.


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

After the aggression I pulled the leash back toward me, told him, "Off, Mako," and then made him sit while the daycare attendant and discussed it, her surprise that he went from excited to upset so quickly (and she says without sign), and potential training options beyond what we're doing. He sat as directed and eventually laid down. We did notice that he was shaking a little.

She mentioned a local man who offers training - said that they've had a very intensely aggressive (i.e. actually attempting to attack them) large-breed dog come back from him after something like 6 sessions in 2 months completely changed/improved. She added that they've heard of dogs attending one training with him and seeing success (not sure the issues with that dog, though). Our trainer at Petsmart warned of a local guy that uses forceful/unfortunate/etc. training methods that "sucked the life out of" a dog (paraphrasing, here) - not sure if this is the same guy.


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Where do you live? Someone here can usually recommend a trainer.


We live near Tacoma, WA.


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Crate train your dog and put him in his crate when contractors are present. It's how most of us deal with these things and crating will be an invaluable tool throughout his life.


We use the crate daily while we're at work and also when needed during our house projects (contractors usually aren't present). He enjoys it the vast majority of the time. 

In this case, given that my father was the only one there for both the tractor contractor and the 2 separate inspection visits, we thought daycare would make it less stressful for him (my father, who isn't around for our training and daily rituals) and make for a fun day of play for Mako (like his initial visit).


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Ah. I wonder if this is part of the problem. A lot of folks neuter their dogs before they're mature. Think about neutering a human before they completed puberty and what sort of issues might arise. 

I'm not saying you're in for a boatload of trouble, just that you might be required to exercise more patience, understanding and training for what you're experiencing.


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## kmgomez (May 30, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Ah. I wonder if this is part of the problem. A lot of folks neuter their dogs before they're mature. Think about neutering a human before they completed puberty and what sort of issues might arise.
> 
> I'm not saying you're in for a boatload of trouble, just that you might be required to exercise more patience, understanding and training for what you're experiencing.


I certainly have hope for all of us, it's just so upsetting that we can't seem to get a system down that works consistently. He has some real shining moments..then things like this happen.

We need a lot more practice - time dedicated to the right kind of training.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I imagine he's frustrated too. I could NEVER imagine what goes on in a dog's mind, how they perceive things so differently from us. It's a wonder they like to work with us at all!

I do feel like you'll get it figured out. I don't think you have a "bad" dog, just one you're trying to figure out and one that is still making sense of the crazy human world! 

I have heard (and can believe) that Petsmart training is not the best training. Apparently they have a cookie-cutter method they are not allowed to deviate from and this method will not work for every dog. The trainers are not inept, they just have strict guidelines regarding what they are/are not allowed to say/do, probably because of insurance liabilities! It is what it is.

Training and activities that would build your dog's confidence is what I think would help, but let's see if others think so too. How was your dog socialized? What was he like as a young puppy?


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

kmgomez said:


> It was supposed to be so seamless..


Man proposes, dog disposes... You mean you didn't get a dog because you had to solve the problem of having too much money/sleep/free time?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

For a lot of reasons, I'd ditch the daycare and petsmart. Both environments tend towards the positive only mentality, socializing type "playdates" etc, which are not always the best for GSDs. It sounds like neither place know what they were doing/talking about 100% Petsmart, like someone else said is very hit or miss. Mostly miss. As for daycare, anyone who leans over a GSD they are meeting and does squeaky voice, does NOT know a lot about these dogs at all. 

I would contact your most local IPO Club or German Shepherd Club and ask about good trainers. In other words, find the local breed enthusiasts and ask them for a good trainer.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Man proposes, dog disposes... You mean you didn't get a dog because you had to solve the problem of having too much money/sleep/free time?


and not only do we get dogs but we get smart ones who think about things, but not always like a "Hooman" thinks about things. I swear, sometimes my dogs look at me like,"this would make sense to anyone with a brain. Humans can be as dumb as a rock" (usually when I pretend I don't understand that they want me to chase them around the yard)

I agree with finding someone who understands herding / working class dogs that might need more than clickers and cookies. Although marker training is very valuable and treats are handy. Just that there is more to it than, click and treat to get a German Shepherd understanding human rules.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you decide to use daycare select one where they understand the breed and are good with dogs. I used a cageless one for years with my rescues and they did fine there, but I took them often so they were used to it. They took the dogs immediately and put them in a holding area where they could sniff other dogs but were not in with them or people. They gradually added a few dogs until mine were comfortable, then let them into the larger area. My younger dog now who is intact did not like day care, so I quit. I did not plan to neuter so we wouldmhavemhad to quit anyway.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Griff could be a dog like the PO's. He loves training with clicker and treats until....he has to comply and then he throws in the towel. This was the case in Dremeling nails, being rinsed off with the garden hose when caked with mud, running by me towards the door etc. Guess what? I didn't buy this and I had to wrestle (no Alpha rolls!) him a few times. I don't make excuses once they know what I reasonably ask them, no matter his 5-month cuteness. Now he is rock solid in these situations. I have not abused him, nor has he screamed bloody murder; he just got the message.
Regarding 'talking back' as in an other recent thread; he did this once with Deja and she didn't think it was funny or cute at all. She walked over to him and corrected him (very scary sounds);he was still whole and it hasn't happened since. 
I truly wish that people would stop babying and talking baby talk to dogs. It doesn't sound dog-savvy at all but I guess it is to appease the owner. Once a lady came to my large mutt dog, squealing baby talk and he pulled back. She asked if he was afraid of people. I told her that he never gets addressed this way.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

This 'talking back' when given a command is a protest, common in teenagers (human too). Its cute, ignore it and have them do the command anyway, then praise


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Ah. I wonder if this is part of the problem. A lot of folks neuter their dogs before they're mature. Think about neutering a human before they completed puberty and what sort of issues might arise.
> 
> I'm not saying you're in for a boatload of trouble, just that you might be required to exercise more patience, understanding and training for what you're experiencing.


I disagree. I think there are plenty of reasons leading up to this that are much more reasonable than the dog being neutered.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I live near Tacoma Washington as well. I have been searching for a trainer for about 11 months. No luck. There are so many but none seem to line up with what I hope for. I do have a trainer paid for a package felt initially encouraged and now feel disappointed. I would be interested in speaking to the trainer you were referred to if you wouldn't mind sending me information in a direct message. 

Best of luck to you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just to elaborate a bit for you leaning over a "strange" dog is seldom a good approach. It smacks of a threat. Most dog savy folks avoid it at all costs.
That high pitched baby talk is another big no-no. For excitable or prey driven dogs it can instigate anything from inappropriate play to a flat out frenzy.
A HUGE number of dogs do not like being touched on the head. It is partlyinstinct, we all need our heads. Further if you watch dogs interact with one another you will often see one dog put its head over another dog. It's a dominant behavior that again depending on the dogs can instigate anything from a wrestling match to a brawl.
I don't think your dog is necessarily aggressive, but you need to be wise about how you let people approach. And I think many here would agree that if the staff at this daycare are this poorly trained it probably isn't a wise choice.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

kmgomez said:


> After the aggression I pulled the leash back toward me, told him, "Off, Mako," and then made him sit while the daycare attendant and discussed it, her surprise that he went from excited to upset so quickly (and she says without sign), and potential training options beyond what we're doing. He sat as directed and eventually laid down. We did notice that he was shaking a little.
> 
> She mentioned a local man who offers training - said that they've had a very intensely aggressive (i.e. actually attempting to attack them) large-breed dog come back from him after something like 6 sessions in 2 months completely changed/improved. She added that they've heard of dogs attending one training with him and seeing success (not sure the issues with that dog, though). Our trainer at Petsmart warned of a local guy that uses forceful/unfortunate/etc. training methods that "sucked the life out of" a dog (paraphrasing, here) - not sure if this is the same guy.


That was a pretty good response. I would have said "no" first. I would consider a properly fitted prong collar and learn how to deliver a correction properly. The issue, regardless of any temperament issues your dog might have, is that you decide when your dog is allowed to show aggression, not him. The exception is if you are attacked. The shaking and unwarranted aggression suggest some nerves issues to me. You really don't need to pay time a trainer and take up your time to learn to give your dog a correction with the correct collar.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Careful with correcting aggression with the prong. I have seen it amp up some dogs, particularly if the dog is large and the handler small- redirection, amped up aggressive response are common. 

I completely agree you need to correct aggression but first you need to make 100% sure the dog is very clear on the language of training and "agree" "disagree" when it comes to behaviors. 

OP- check out Nitro K9. I think they are in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Also remember, the only thing two trainers agree on is that the other is wrong- check out a trainer for yourself, or talk to training customers. Don't just trust the word of another trainer.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

*Aikido in Daily Life*



car2ner said:


> and not only do we get dogs but we get smart ones who think about things, but not always like a "Hooman" thinks about things. I swear, sometimes my dogs look at me like,"this would make sense to anyone with a brain. Humans can be as dumb as a rock" (usually when I pretend I don't understand that they want me to chase them around the yard)
> 
> I agree with finding someone who understands herding / working class dogs that might need more than clickers and cookies. Although marker training is very valuable and treats are handy. Just that there is more to it than, click and treat to get a German Shepherd understanding human rules.


In Aikido we do often perform body movements that simultaneously get us out of the line of an attack and put us in a position more favorable to neutralize it. This position often gives us the same POV as the opponent (i.e., we often wind up facing the same direction). 

A valuable lesson from aikido comes from the goal of blending one's energy with the opponent such that there is no longer a difference between them. "Two become one". The contest is ended before it begins, because who can fight with oneself?

Once one stops seeing the dog as an "other", and makes the effort to look through his eyes and with his perception, the process of better understanding him begins. The dog is not being difficult. He is a dog. he is what he is! We are the ones who are stubborn!

I love all the things dogs can teach us.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> This 'talking back' when given a command is a protest, common in teenagers (human too). Its cute, ignore it and have them do the command anyway, then praise


 Mine does this a LOT, especially when hubby and I are eating dinner and he comes too close to the table, wanting early treats. I tell him "down" and the sassy backtalk starts. "Stop complaining and just do it!" I say. "Down!"

He'll backtalk all the way down. Sometimes I get the heavy plop-down-with-dramatic-teenage-sigh.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Just to elaborate a bit for you leaning over a "strange" dog is seldom a good approach. It smacks of a threat. Most dog savy folks avoid it at all costs...A HUGE number of dogs do not like being touched on the head. I don't think your dog is necessarily aggressive, but you need to be wise about how you let people approach. And I think many here would agree that if the staff at this daycare are this poorly trained it probably isn't a wise choice.


I so agree with this! 

Our dog growls at strangers who lean over him and pat him on the head, so I don't let strangers do that anymore. 

He goes to doggy daycare once in a while, and comes home happy & relaxed, full of play bows. I have never seen the staff do anything beyond greet him casually by name, and lightly stroke him on the back. That staff member would have definitely gotten growled at! Her greeting would have stressed my dog out a lot!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Careful with correcting aggression with the prong. I have seen it amp up some dogs, particularly if the dog is large and the handler small- redirection, amped up aggressive response are common.
> 
> I completely agree you need to correct aggression but first you need to make 100% sure the dog is very clear on the language of training and "agree" "disagree" when it comes to behaviors.
> 
> OP- check out Nitro K9. I think they are in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Also remember, the only thing two trainers agree on is that the other is wrong- check out a trainer for yourself, or talk to training customers. Don't just trust the word of another trainer.


From the initial description of the dog's aggression, a quick, sharp prong correction with a sit command would likely effectively shut down his aggression. The problem for novices is knowing how to fit the collar correctly and how to give a quick, sharp correction and then letting the leash go slack. A nagging correction with constant pressure is usually what inexperienced people do.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip Blasiole said:


> From the initial description of the dog's aggression, a quick, sharp prong correction with a sit command would likely effectively shut down his aggression. The problem for novices is knowing how to fit the collar correctly and how to give a quick, sharp correction and then letting the leash go slack. A nagging correction with constant pressure is usually what inexperienced people do.


I practiced in our basement rec room for about 3 days before I took it outside. Shield K9 had some great videos on their site showing proper corrections and fit, but it really comes down to timing.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A quick prong correction would work for most dogs, but not for a dog of a certain caliber or type - generally a dog with high defense and redirection tendencies. It would be very dangerous indeed with some dogs, which is why I caution against it. It's a good way to get bitten badly, get into a fight you don't want to finish, or to cause the dog to escalate aggression toward a stranger. 

Be very careful experimenting. It's super important to establish a language with the dog and to make that correction really count. 

I prefer e-collar to prong when working with a large, serious dog who is big enough to physically overpower me if he so desired. But I also firmly believe in building a working relationship with such a dog first. Particularly if you are a new or inexperienced owner.


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