# Uggh! Too much whip!



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Originally Posted by JackieM1982



> Yep! Treck's foundation bitework had too much whip. So much so, that he began coming off the sleeve and biting the stick/whip. After that club became defunct and we joined our present club we began work to correct this and he was then fine with the stick and stick hits.


Originally posted by Snoop Dogg:


> I am having the same problem, how did you correct this ?


I've seen some pretty bad helper work in my previous club. One of the decoys would whip the dog's front legs when it was doing the bark and hold. He actually welted the legs of one of the dogs!  And these were dogs that were new to the sport, too!

We had someone who was very experienced in schutzhund come and give a training seminar for new helpers at our club. He didn't have a SINGLE good thing to say about this helper's work!

I saw the helpers at the WUSV trials doing that this year to test the courage of the dogs, but THAT'S a whole different level of the sport! I don't think you should be doing it with young dogs that are just starting out. It might ruin them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Originally Posted by JackieM1982
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I think you kinda mixed something in your post here Sunsilver. No helper used the whip in the H&B at the WUSV, or in any trial. What your talking about in your previous club comes down to the skill of a helper. There's good reasons for using a whip in training, or not using it too, but its not really something that ever explains well online. Basically, it comes down to the dog and the helper reading the dog. None of it is meant to injure a dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Have you SEEN this year's videos?

Okay, maybe not hitting the dog's legs, but certainly using the whip to discourage the dog from getting to the sleeve!

https://vimeo.com/237382085


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, but that's completely, 100% different. I'd love to send my dog on that helper.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Also, that’s not a whip. Two different tools.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd forget all about those dogs Sunsilver, and watch the dogs that didn't fail.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wow, if those were show line dogs I know what people would be saying!!!

I hate seeing them fall. That last one didn't look 100% when he got back up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wow, if those were show line dogs I know what people would be saying!!!
> 
> I hate seeing them fall. That last one didn't look 100% when he got back up.


Lol. Pot stirrer.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Was the charging and the screaming that threw those dogs off.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wow, if those were show line dogs I know what people would be saying!!!
> 
> I hate seeing them fall. That last one didn't look 100% when he got back up.


Yes, I can just imagine what the show line people would say! :wink2:

Several dogs were injured, one badly enough that the handler was saying it might have to be retired. It rained, and the grass was quite slippery. 

Top dog was a female, and she was in season!! This is what a 94 point protection performance looks like...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, the helpers were using a padded stick in the competition, whips are not used in IPO trials. 

Pressure is pressure and the helpers did a good job of consistently applying pressure to all the dogs. The stick was not presented to make any dog not engage or miss. I suspect the odd pitch and serious tone of the decoy's scream on the long bite unnerved some dogs. This is the world championships, prepare your dog at a world championship level. 

Just because some one makes the WUSV team for their country doesn't mean they have a WUSV level dog. I will say that the Dutch take dog sport very seriously and those helpers have the ability to truly test a dog. Injuries are unfortunate, but this is a contact sport and every year dogs will come out with some injuries. We had two dogs get hurt in K-9 training recently, it's not for soft or weaker dogs. Both had odd accidents, one sliced his rear leg open on a bite in a building. The dog kept working, I stopped the bleeding and bandaged the dog and off he went to the vet and a two week vacation for him and handler. He's fine and back at work. 

In regards to the screaming, dogs need to be prepared to deal with some odd things. We have a female handler in our unit and she has a blood curdling scream that would rival any female B movie horror star. It is so loud and piercing that it is hard to be in the same room when she does it. She is a good decoy and will start to scream when the dogs engage or just before. I have seen some seasoned patrol dogs give some funny reactions to her horror movie screams. It is all about preparation, exposure and having the right dogs. I would also send my dog on that decoy any day and not worry.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, if those were show line dogs I know what people would be saying!!!
> ...


I am guilty as charged.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As far as the falling & getting hurt...I'm not trying to go animal rights crazy or anything. I hope and assume that these dogs all get proper medical care and that the owners will see to it that they are cared for in the event of retirement due to injury.

In other animal sports that is not always the case. Don't honestly know what it is like for these dogs

I still hate to see them fall like that and hate to hear of serious injury....


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Any sport has its dangers. I am sure many dogs get injured in sports like agility, too. Herding dogs can be kicked or trampled, hunting dogs hurt when jumping fences, or when the animal being hunted turns on them...

I see it as part of what the dogs have been bred for. If you want to keep your dog wrapped in bubble wrap, and never let it out of your purse or backyard, fine. But that's not what dogs were originally bred for.

Edit: most schutzhund dogs I know are also much-loved pets. But I only train at the club level, so I can't speak for the WUSV dogs, though I DO know Canadian team member Monique Anstee, through her blog, The Naughty Dogge.

She is a very experienced dog trainer, and has helped hundreds of people with their problem dogs. She will even take the dog into her own home to work with it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I know I would have been freaking out if I had been the owner of the Canadian dog when he went spinning through the air, BUT, this was originally designed to test our dogs for breeding suitability for production of working dogs. The Dutch helpers have always known how to test the dogs, put real pressure and stress on them, because in the real word bad guys don't play fair. 

I train with two of the world team members and neither of them complained about the helpers. Those helpers worked 140 or so dogs over 5 days. No human is capable of doing something over and over and not make a few mistakes. They are not robots. No, we don't want our dogs hurt, but there is always some risk when we send our dogs down the field.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As far as the stick in a trial. They are there to inflict conflict, apply pressure and stress to the dogs. Dogs that don't engage do so because of a weakness in their character. The stick threat for the dog in the video kept him from engaging originally and then he didn't have enough fight drive to work through that continued pressure to bite. 

This, though, has absolutely nothing to do with the use of a whip in training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Originally Posted by JackieM1982
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When I first saw that posted, too much whip, I kinda skimmed over it and I thought they were talking about too much whip as in attraction, now the dog needs it.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

This thread topic reminded me of this picture so I stole it off one of the IPO Facebook pages.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I find the opinions on the WUSV helpers very interesting and I'm glad it was touched on. As a newbie it's easy to look at it and wonder what's wrong or right.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

QUOTE=Thecowboysgirl;8724266]Wow, if those were show line dogs I know what people would be saying!!!

Ha good point!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Any sport has its dangers. I am sure many dogs get injured in sports like agility, too. Herding dogs can be kicked or trampled, hunting dogs hurt when jumping fences, or when the animal being hunted turns on them...
> 
> I see it as part of what the dogs have been bred for. If you want to keep your dog wrapped in bubble wrap, and never let it out of your purse or backyard, fine. But that's not what dogs were originally bred for.
> 
> ...


You are the one that started this thread with concern. Any sport some animal/person can get hurt sure even killed. It is always sad and upsetting to see -(I just can?t equate that to wanting to bubble wrap a dog.)and I don?t blame the owner to be pissed although they must know the risks especially in wet weather.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Femfa said:


> I find the opinions on the WUSV helpers very interesting and I'm glad it was touched on. As a newbie it's easy to look at it and wonder what's wrong or right.


If someone has a dog that comes down the field and then when he gets there, changes his mind, they probably aren't going to like that helper work. If someone has a dog that hits another gear when the helper yells and threatens with the stick, then hammers that bite, you'll probably like to send your dog on that helper. No wants a dog injured from any of this.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I thought the WUSV helpers were great. I'd LOVE to work with them. So many are talking about "how bad" they were. Obviously they were selected for a reason.


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