# How are we doing so far?



## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Hi every one! This is my first post. I have been lurking for a couple of weeks and finally joined and decided to post to the forums. We have just picked out a Female GSD pup born on 4-10 and will bring her home on 6-5. This might be a long post, but I thought I would post what we have done and planned to do so far in regards to our new pup and get some opinions and advice. Our family consists of me (41 y/o male), My wife (age with held), Daughter (12) , son (10), a Pembroke Welsh Corgi (3 y/o) and the cat (2 y/o). Oh yeah, and 12 chickens. We found a breeder about 1hr away from us. http://germanshepherdakc.tripod.com/ She breeds German Imports. We reserved first pick of the females and had several phone and email conversations with the breeder to explain what we were looking for. That being a friendly family dog that won't bite the mailman, pizza guy, or friends and relatives. She agreed with the choice of female and we went to meet all the pups yesterday 5-23. We spent about 10-15 min with all of them and then started removing one or two at a time for various reasons. We narrowed it down to 2 and finally to one. She was first born and the biggest in the litter. She was interested in all of us but not pushy to get in our lap. She played with her litter mates and when she was the only one left she played with us and a tennis ball with no anxiety. We did not get to see the mom or dad because the breeder told us mom was elsewhere "drying up" and dad was down the street at a friends house. This is the only uneasy feeling I got from her but she told us we could meet them both in the future. (it was raining) She did show us all kind of paper work on the parents all kinds of ratings that she said were good. I know I should know more about it but we are really only looking for a family dog not show quality. I assume she wouldn't be bragging about it if it were negative. We left one of my wifes "dirty" shirts with her and the breeder said she will start using the dogs name when she and her daughter interact with it. She is also starting the potty training with all the pups. I have many, many, more questions to ask and i know this is getting long, so....... I will wait for some responses and maybe follow up with more questions if any one wants to help a newbie out. Thanks, Mike


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Quote:We did not get to see the mom or dad because the breeder told us mom was elsewhere "drying up" and dad was down the street at a friends house.


I don't want to rain on your parade, but that would be more than a red flag to me... Been there, done that years ago!

I would insist on seeing Mom and Dad and I would ask for recommendations. Ask where other pups are - noted this wasn't her first litter.

Call some folks who have pups from the other litter.

I'm cautious, but this pup will be for her lifetime and you need to know a bit more before committing... IMHO.

You also might ask in breeder section for more info on this breeder.

All may be well, but with a household with children and other pets, I'd check it out.

Best of luck.


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reply. We plan on visiting again in a couple of days. Hopefully we will see the parents. Is it normal to seperate the mom from the pups to "dry up"? I will check out the breeder forums also.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

How old are the puppies?

Yeah, but I've never run into having to keep Mom in a totally different location.

A breeder might best answer that question for you.

I PM'd you.

Happy puppy hunting!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If I'm reading the pedigree info correctly neither parent is titled themselves, the male lacks a hip dysplasia rating and while the mom has one, it's only fair. I don't know enough about the lines the dogs are coming from to comment, but at least the dogs are titled. Was she able to provide you with info on genetic screening of the parents? Hip and elbow info, blood disorders etc?

"Imports" doesn't necessarily mean quality. As I understand it, sometimes lesser quality dogs are offloaded onto US buyers. I would want to see titled on both preferably on both parents but definitely on dad. 

Hopefully you will be able to meet both mom and dad and see what they're like first hand before making a final decision. It's also important to make sure that breeding dogs as well as puppies are being well-cared for so that you're not supporting a breeder that isn't treating their dogs well. 

German Shepherds make terrific family dogs but some can be a little standoffish and too many are shy. Since you want a dog that will be okay with visitors to your house, mailmen etc, it's especially important that you know up front what your dog's genetics are like. Lots of GSDs fit the bill of what you're describing perfectly - so they're out there - but a lot are very nervy, and that's not good. Anyway, sorry to sound negative. GSDs are wonderful - there's just a lot to look out for.

Welcome to the board!


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## suden (Jun 5, 2001)

Hello Fireman,
We own a pup out of Idda's littersister Isabell. The 2 sisters were imported as pups from Sunami Kennels in Slovakia(sp) by a breeder in Kentucky. The bitch we own has very high hunt and prey drive. She was a very slow bitch to mature and now at almost 3 years of age she is finally growing up) Our plan was to train her as a detection dog-passed the testing with flying colors-but with my health problems none of my dogs are being trained and from the looks of things none will be.
If you have any questions for me please feel free to PM me.

Vikki


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would insist on meeting the parents before making your final decision. Their temperament is just as important as titles, etc.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

There are several things that would make me leery. Not meeting at least the mother is one. I have not heard of a breeder sending a female away to "dry up". Another thing is letting people pick their own dog. A responsible breeder would narrow down the choice based on the total time that they have spent with the litter, knowledge of their lines and the characteristics of previous litters. 

The sire is not yet two years of age, no sign of being titled and too young to have his hips certified by OFA. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/519826.html

Dam: OFA fair (at least she had her hips x-rayed). But not titled. 

General observations from her website:

Mixing working lines (dam) and show lines (sire) which in and of itself is not a red flag although many do not condone the practice. 

Apparently the breeder does not have an issue breeding dogs with out hip certifications and too young (per general consensus). She has a female listed for sale that has already produced a litter but "will be OFAed when she turns 2". That IS a red flag to me. Apparently she makes a habit out of this since the sire of the current litter is not old enough for OFA yet. 

My personal opinion I would request a refund and look elsewhere. You can find a quality dog from a responsible breeder for the price you are paying for several "red flags".

This post is just my opinion as I have no personal knowledge of this person nor their dogs.


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Thanks for the quick replies. Man I thought this was a done deal but I guess we have a lot more homework and investigating to do. Thanks also for the PM's. I'll update what we decide. Any one think there will be issues with a female corgi? she is very smart and headstrong. she keeps the kids in line and the chickens too. not aggressive but definitly a herder. she is 3 y/o. Oh, and she herds the cat too. She is amazing to watch when she is working. We live on 5 fenced acer's moderately wooded.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Sounds like a heavenly home for a GSD.

There are members with Corgis as well as GSDs and haven't seen any post saying they don't get along.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

We don't have a Corgi but we have a smallish Border Collie. The BC and our GSDs basically get along but the GSDs occasionally want to herd the BC (herding the herder) and she really doesn't like that and gets upset. If I were in your place with a pretty strong willed small herder girl, I'd be looking for a somewhat laid back easy going GSD pup so they will complement each other rather than overlapping too closely. It can be hard on a tough little dog to have a tough big dog come in and start bossing them. 

ETA: I'd also be looking for a GSD with relatively low prey drive because when small dogs are zinging around doing their thing that can create chasing situations in high prey drive large dogs which can be dangerous - even in dogs who get along fine when they're all lying around the living room. GSDs and Corgis CAN get along beautifully, just a matter of finding the right dog.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

My sister has a corgi, she and Anna get along great. Of course, Lola, the corgi, is older (she's about four and Anna's just 8 mo) and in charge! As it's often said, corgi's, the miniture GSD! 

But they run and play,and when Lola's had enough, she lets Anna know and Anna listens. Both are great breeds!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Pupresq gave good advice. Two females may not get along, even with the size and age difference. There have been many stories posted here by people that have two female dogs that got along well for years, and then got into a fight that ended up fatal for one. When two females fight, they fight to the death. Usually a male/female combination works better, and I would recommend it for your situation, especially if your Corgi seems to be pretty confident, and not the kind of dog that will submit and defer to a newcomer. 
Another flag about the breeder you chose, is that after learning that you already have a confident, bossy female dog, she did not suggest a male to balance the dynamics. Another red flag to me. 

Now there are a lot of people who have two or more female dogs in their household that get along great, but why take the chance? A male would be a safer bet.


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Hi all, Thanks again for all the responses. We really want to do this right! IF we get this dog on 6-5, we will be leaving on a trip to drop my daughter off at camp in NC for 3 weeks on 6-7. We will be traveling in a motor home with the corgi but not the cat (or the chickens..LOL). We go on trips in the MH several times a year. Mostly short 3-4 day trips some longer. This trip we plan on being in the MH about a week, come home for about a week or so them back up to get her and in it another week. We want to socialize the dog the whole time, to traveling, traffic, people and dogs at campgrounds and rest stops, etc. etc. My next question is, will there be a problem bonding with my daughter when she only gets 2 days and then gone for 3 weeks? And do you think the camping will be too much for the pup?

I know i'm asking a lot of questions in one thread so let me know if I should start new one for different questions. Thanks again, I look forward to becoming good forum buddies with all.


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Oh btw, Emily is 12 y/o and all our animals really seem to love her, even the chickens. Daniel is 10 and will be with us on the trip.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

wouldn't worry about the bonding, that would be ok.

What might worry me is taking a pup around strange dogs and areas that might be contaminated before the pup is vaccinated against major illnesses.

Dogs you know (that are disease free) are ok and a good thing but ask your vet about camp grounds and socializing with dogs you don't know.

How old is this puppy?


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

She was born on 4-10 so 6wks. The breeder told us she has a vet that will give them their first round of shots and put a chip in her before we take her home on 6-5 (8wks).


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

the first inoculation is one in a series.. if I remember, one at 8, 12 and 16 weeks.

My vet felt it best to wait until the pup completed the series before exposure to strange dogs and areas frequented by many unknown dogs.

Check your vets recommendations on this.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Totally agree with Zyp - I think the bonding will be a non-issue and if your daughter likes dogs, they will probably fall head over heels for each other. GSDs love their kids.







However, I would NOT under any circumstances have an 8 week old puppy with only one vaccine be anywhere that other unknown dogs go. The risk of parvo is just too high. FYI, if you haven't experienced it - parvo virus is highly contagious, does not require dog to dog contact, and can live in the environment for up to a year after being deposited. 

Puppies aren't really safe from it until they've had at least one vaccine after the 12-14 week zone because earlier vaccines may be neutralized by circulating maternal antibodies and therefore ineffective. It's still a good idea to give them because you're trying to maximize your chances of protection in case of accidental exposure, but I wouldn't consider a dog as likely to be immune until they're older and better protected.

ETA: Also remember that it can take up a week or so for the body to respond to a vaccine, so if she is vaccinated at 8 weeks right before you pick her up, she has potentially no protection at all!







I wouldn't have a pup her age anywhere but in my house, my yard, and in the houses and yards of known people/dogs. She shouldn't go anywhere like Petsmart or Petco, rest stops, or campgrounds and should be carried other places, like at the vet. 

Parvo is quite common in your area and it's a terrible disease.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I looked at the sires pedigree on PDB and it has progeny listed born last year.........was he bred when he was only 1?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/578274.html


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Ok, here's another huge red flag for me:
$1,000 *CKC* reg
$1200- AKC reg Lim
$1500 AKC full reg for show /beeding

I would bet that isn't the Canadian Kennel Club


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I can only reinforce what others have already posted. RED FLAGS: Dogs bred without even hip/elbow certs, I see nothing about titles on either parent or indications that dogs are worked in any venue. A female for sale who had a litter in Feb and who will be OFA...mixing work and show lines - should IMO only be done by experienced breeder with a long term game plan...Price plateaus based on paperwork received...nothing to do with the credentials of parents. Letting a buyer PICK a pup from a litter period, let alone one this young!!!!! For the top end of the price, you can get a pup from an established reputable breeder.

Lee


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

After reading the above posts we have some serious reservations about completing the deal. Should we make a list of issues that were raised by this post and give the breeder a chance to explain or just scrap the deal altogether. I know it will ultimatly be our decision but just looking for opinions. 

If the dog does end up with any health issues, at least with us it will be loved and cared for it's whole life. We are leaning towards not getting her but even now she is pulling on our heart strings. The kids still think we are getting her on 6-5. She will be spayed so her branch of the tree would end.

We were planning on visiting her this week and seeing the parents. I don't know for sure what we will do yet but I hope IF we get her we will still receive lots of support from this forum. 

Every one has been very helpful with their comments and I look forward to reading the replies. Thanks again. Mike


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Good morning Mike









This is my .02¢

In my mind there are two issues at hand with getting this puppy.

The first is health, temperament, etc. As a fond saying on this board goes, “Puppies are a crap shoot”, but (and that’s a big but) by purchasing a puppy from a breeder doing all the right things you stack the odds way in your favor.

The second in my mind is that if folks no longer bought puppies from breeders not doing all the right things, these breeders would just disappear. If these types of breeders no longer bred dogs I can’t begin to imagine the good things that could happen for the GSD.

So there you have my .02¢, of course I haven’t had my coffee yet so who knows if I said it very well


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Don't know if this will help.... but I uploaded a video of the pups to Youtube. Roxy is the first one I zoomed in on that my wife is holding. (the one the breeder compares to the "black one". Here's the link (i hope)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WotaMsPKhiI

P.S. click on the HD button for better quality.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.I looked at the sires pedigree on PDB and it has progeny listed born last year.........was he bred when he was only 1?
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/578274.html


Yes, Barb, It appears the breeder regularly breeds dogs before they are mature and before they are even old enough to have their hips certified by OFA.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Just my opinion but I would pass. There are too many read flags and to me a person that regularly breeds dogs too young to even have OFA certs on their joints is NOT breeding to better the breed but to roll in the $$. You can ask the breeder but I would be willing to venture a guess that they will tell you what you want to hear.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Ok, there is no such thing as an unappealing puppy, but... there is no greater heartbreak than dealing with a loved companion with either serious health problems or having to re-home or, heaven forbid, have to put one down for either unresolvable health or temperament issues.

From your posts, it's evident that you would do all you could to take care of this pup for it's lifetime. Expense is just part of the pain.

You could get lucky and this puppy could be healthy and gentle, but why not tip the scales in your favor.

I'm sure it's hard, after seeing the puppy and telling the children you would be getting her, but dealing with serious issues could be harder.

For what it's worth - after years of loving the breed - I would look for a more reputable breeder and make plans to get a pup with it's future weighed in your favor. I'm sure your children will be disappointed but understand that they will have a puppy soon and you're making a decision based on learning more about the puppies.

A few weeks here or there won't seem like a long time in the future.

And, as far as the breeder is concerned, I'd simply ask for your deposit back. If they won't give it to you, you probably couldn't get it back with reason.

Some breeders I know won't even take a deposit because they want complete control over who gets their pups and are sure of demand for their breeding.

Whatever you do, keep in touch with the forum. There are a lot of folks with good advice.

Cheers


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Here is an update. We are starting over. We have decided to cancel the deal with the current breeder and write off the deposit as a lesson learned. I want to thank every one who took the time to respond to my post and to those who have PM'ed me with additional information. I have learned so much from this web site, I just wish I would have found it sooner. I think I will start a new thread once we get things cranked up in the new search for a puppy. Wish us luck and please keep the opinions and advice coming. Mike


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

If only everyone put as much planning and thought into a dog as you have/are there would be a lot of empty animal shelters. Good for you!


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## dadsbestfriend (May 26, 2009)

I am with you on wishing this forum was at my dispense six months ago! Good for you fireman3571.


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## Alicia (May 9, 2009)

Great info for newbies on this thread. Thanks for the topic, fireman!


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## fireman3571 (May 23, 2009)

Hey everyone, I'm gonna start a new thread with pics on out baby boy! Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Mike


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