# Why wuold a breeder require the puppy back for a warranty?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I've read many stories here about people only being offered a refund if they send the original puppy back.

Why would a breeder require that? What are they going to do with that puppy?

The cynical side of me says they do this because they know most people get attached and won't WANT to return their puppy in order to get a refund (or new puppy).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> The cynical side of me says they do this because they know most people get attached and won't WANT to return their puppy in order to get a refund (or new puppy).


I think that's part of it. I think another part of it is that there are a lot of scammers in the world who will do anything to get money, including getting their buddy who's a vet to forge documents. 

My breeder does not require the puppy back, but she also only guarantees hips/elbows and testicles, not everything under the sun like a lot of people seem to want. (Since I bought Kopper as a pet and stated that I plan to neuter him, his testicle guarantee only covered the difference in cost between a regular neuter and a crytorchid neuter.) 

What do breeders do with returned puppies? Hopefully they don't get vary many. I've seen some that spay/neuter the animal and place it in a pet home.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Because of what Emoore said. I think a lot of breeders have that in their contracts, but under the right circumstances will allow the owner to keep the puppy. I have known, though, of people that tried to scam the breeder. Then there are the breeders that know darn well a buyer would never return the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know a man that wears his new shoes until they are worn out, and then takes them back to the store and gets them to give him a new pair. And they do. He does this with shoes. He does it with other things too. I bet a dollar to a donut he would do this with a dog.

My warranty requires the pup's hips or elbows be evaluated by the OFA, and if they want to keep the pup, they will have to provide proof that it has been altered. And then I will replace the puppy. No cash, beyond two weeks, sorry. 

Chances are they want this dog as a companion and the dog will make an awesome companion, even if it has a problem. But when they are ready for another puppy, I will go ahead and replace that pup. If they want to return a puppy, I will take them back at any time.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

As a kid (probably 7th grade or so) we got a female German shepherd. Around 1 year old we found out that she had severe HD. In order to get a new puppy from the guarantee we had to have her put to sleep and show documentation of it. That was one of the hardest things for me as a child. We had to "kill" a family member to get a new one. I understand her quality of life may not have been great, I don't really quite remember how bad she truly was. But either way it was tough. She had an amazing temperament. The puppy we got as her replacement had to be put to sleep by the age of 1. He bit 2 kids, and after completely attacking one (never got teeth on her thank God since we were right there when he opened the gate) we decided he was too dangerous. It was just sad we killed a beautiful, nice girl for this beast! In the end we lost anyways.

The moral of my story is now that I am looking for a breeder/first puppy as an adult on my own I realize the importance of reputable breeding, but I also want a breeder who wont make me euthanize or return my family member to get a new one if for some reason there is a guaranteed defect. (I also understand that by going with a reputable breeder I am also lowering, not diminishing, the chances of needing a replacement) With that being said I am planning on meeting with a breeder this weekend for the first time (if the temps don't go to high...keep your fingers crossed for me! ) I am so very excited!! :wild:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I do not believe in a guarantee for health(or temperament, which to me is more important!)....for the reason Danielle posted. 
If I don't trust the chosen breeder after RESEARCHING the pups that have been produced at maturity and seeing the sire's progeny, then shame on me....I deserve to live with a dog with problems. I would never return or put down a dog after owning it for two years unless the management was so detrimental to my daily life that I couldn't handle it, and at that point I don't think returning a dog for another from the same breeder would be something I'd do, unless I really, really had good faith that the return was a fluke. I'd put the dog down in the comfort of my own hands vs a strangers after return.
Danielle, I wish you the best in your search! It is rewarding when you find the right breeder/match for your next companion
It boils down to researching the lines you are supporting and trusting the breeder as well.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks Jane! It should be fun  I just feel that after I have a breeder picked out it will be terrible "suspense" waiting until I feel it is the right time to bring in a new family member, or waiting for the perfect match...oh well, all worth it right?!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm sure there are plenty of breeders who do use it as a means to make sure no one ever cashes in on the warranty. That seems to be what everyone always assumes the reason for return clauses is, and no doubt in some cases that's the case. But certainly that isn't the only reason.

There are plenty of people out there who will scam breeders. I clearly remember many years ago, a woman visiting my SchH club and proudly proclaiming how she'd done just that. She had a hip x-ray film from a dysplastic dog, and when it came time to x-ray her dog from a breeder, she'd take that old dysplastic one to the hospital where she worked, get a copy made with a new ID plate showing the breeder's dog's information and send it to the breeder as proof that her dog from them was dysplastic. And then get a replacement pup a few months later. She did this not once, but twice, with 2 different breeders. Never saw her again after that one visit and am quite sure after listening to her talk for a while the people running the club at that time told her she wasn't welcome to come back. Quite sure she'd have never pulled that stunt with any breeder with a return clause. 

I also know a breeder who was contacted by the buyer for a replacement pup *after* they'd had their first pup put down. They euthanized it before contacting the breeder and then just sent the breeder x-rays showing that the dog was dysplastic and a letter describing how much discomfort the dog had been in and how they'd done the right thing by euthanizing it. Problem is either these people were shady or their vet incompetent because the x-rays showed perfect joints. There was no dysplasia. What there was, clearly visible on the x-ray, was pano. They'd killed their dog, less than a year old, for pano. Had the breeder had a return clause chances are that pup would have stayed alive long enough for this to be uncovered.

The other reason is for the breeder to have some control over the dog's fate. There are plenty of people out there who would not want to keep and care for a dog with health problems. Especially amongst serious show, sport, and working people, and those who breed themselves. Certainly many of those would take the time and put in the effort to place such a dog in a good home. But a lot wouldn't. They'd euthanize it, or dump it in a shelter, or give it away to anyone willing to take it, or sell it without disclosing the issue, and who knows where that dog would end up. The breeder having a return clause can prevent that from happening.

Breeders can always go above and beyond what their contract stipulates and not require a return. Most will if the dog is in a good home and the people are willing to keep it and there's no reason to expect anything dishonest or weird going on. But breeders can't do less than what they agree to in writing or they are likely to end up in court so with nothing in the contract to provide the breeder with some leverage their hands may be tied in situations where things are suspicious. They can always do more for the good owners, and still have a means to protect themselves from scammers and help protect the dogs from what might happen if the people decide they don't want to keep the dog after all.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Our breeder's contract gives a 24 mo hip guarantee and will give a refund or replacement if the dog gets less than a 'fair' hip rating. But they certainly do no want or expect the dog to be returned to them- they simply want to provide to the best of their ability a healthy dog.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We are breeders AND pet owners.....I could never understand the "clause" that the puppy or dog be *returned* for a replacement warranty.
I understand about the scams and many dishonest people....but it's still not something we would do....
For the 1 or 2 possible schemers...it's just *not* worth causing the loving families the heartache.
JMO


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> We are breeders AND pet owners.....I could never understand the "clause" that the puppy or dog be *returned* for a replacement warranty.
> I understand about the scams and many dishonest people....but it's still not something we would do....
> For the 1 or 2 possible schemers...it's just *not* worth causing the loving families the heartache.
> JMO


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My contract required a puppy to be returned to me before a replacement puppy was given. The reason I did this was to make sure a puppy was not destroyed just because it didn't work out for the owner due to a stupid reason. 
However in all my years I had two puppies that had health issues that were in my genetic guarantee, both were from other bloodlines that I had brought in, both were Leggs Perth. I did replace both puppies, but the owners kept these two different puppies, had surgery on them and they have lived long lives. The female that I had bought and used for breeding this litter was spayed and put into a pet home.
I think with scammers now days, you have to protect yourself from having someone want to cheat you out of a puppy or money for reason that is either made up or a total lie.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I think people are missing an important factor here.

This is not about YOU, it's about the dog. From the breeder's end, they are and should be invested in their dogs and ensuring the best is done for them. If that means a return contract at the expense of some people "feeling upset," or having heartache, then it is worth it. Your dogs are more important than the people they are going to. YOU are responsible for getting them into "forever homes" where they are going to be loved and cared for.

Like others have said there seems to be so many more unscrupulous people these days and you need to protect your dogs from those kinds of people. If I were a breeder and I sold a pup to someone I would be _furious_ and emotionally distraught if that dog was x-rayed at a year and then promptly put down at suspected dysplasia - even if it actually was that, and not pano.

Unless the hips are so severe they are currently keeping a 1-year old dog from walking, that's no reason to put them down and I can rehome the dog in a place that is willing to take care of them. Or keep him from being killed because he had pano and some idiot misinterpreted the x-ray.

I'm in full agreement with Chris Wild. I realize that once you sell a pup it is no longer yours, it is the buyer's, but that doesn't mean you should be completely uninvested or uninterested in the dog's fate. If the buyer is willing to give up and PTS the dog, I'd want to know why because I would care about the dogs I sell. If it's something stupid like pano, send the dog back and I can find a family who is willing to care for him/her.

And also, like you said, I don't have to require a return if I don't suspect anything stupid is going on. If there is, I can save at least one dog - I unfortunately have to send another to them, but I can mark them down as someone not to sell to ever again. I'd hope screening the buyer would eliminate a lot of that but of course no screening process is perfect unless it's ridiculously invasive and I'm not supportive of those either.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> There are plenty of people out there who will scam breeders. I clearly remember many years ago, a woman visiting my SchH club and proudly proclaiming how she'd done just that. She had a hip x-ray film from a dysplastic dog, and when it came time to x-ray her dog from a breeder, she'd take that old dysplastic one to the hospital where she worked, get a copy made with a new ID plate showing the breeder's dog's information and send it to the breeder as proof that her dog from them was dysplastic. And then get a replacement pup a few months later.


This is awful! Shame on the vet and staff that allowed this to happen. It is highly unethical and VERY illegal. Rads are a medical record and subject to laws protecting their integrity. The idea that Dr. and staff went along with this makes me sick. I do not even know how they would go about "relabeling" the rads to begin with?!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Draugr said:


> If that means a return contract at the expense of some people "feeling upset," or having heartache, then it is worth it. Your dogs are more important than the people they are going to.


I like Robin's approach better. She does care for people, people are important for her because otherwise how would she chose the right families for her pups? You know, a breeder of one of my dogs told me I could get a replacement only after I put the dog down. I always knew that if I returned the dog the first thing she would do would be to put her down. My heartache was irrelevant to her. I don't think I can really respect breeders who do not care for the feelings of their clients.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

When there was a concern for my dogs hips, I called the breeder to find out what would happen if something was wrong and she told me that I would need to bring him back to her and she would have him put down and give me a new puppy. Even with very mild HD she said no one would want him and she would put him down. 

He was 8 or 9 months at the time, I was already extremely bonded to him and ever since that conversation I have had nothing but HUGE dislike for that woman.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> We are breeders AND pet owners.....I could never understand the "clause" that the puppy or dog be *returned* for a replacement warranty.
> I understand about the scams and many dishonest people....but it's still not something we would do....
> For the 1 or 2 possible schemers...it's just *not* worth causing the loving families the heartache.
> JMO



We here feel the same way as to replacing the said pup, but we do require them to spay or neuter them first. But to require the client to return a dog that they have bonded with is just a bit much to ask someone unless the said breeder is looking for a clause to get out of replacing the dog JMO


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> I like Robin's approach better. She does care for people, people are important for her because otherwise how would she chose the right families for her pups? You know, a breeder of one of my dogs told me I could get a replacement only after I put the dog down. I always knew that if I returned the dog the first thing she would do would be to put her down. My heartache was irrelevant to her. I don't think I can really respect breeders who do not care for the feelings of their clients.


I'm not saying it's either one thing or the other, black and white, either crap on the dogs and love the clients, or crap on the clients and love the dogs - but the dogs do come first, always. If you don't feel that the home the dog is in is a good place for him/her due to whatever disability the dog has, then enforce the return contract.

And as others have said, you can always waive the return requirement.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

The breeder could resell the dog if the previous owner wanted to return the dog I'm sure it is simply a business decision. It's like buying a pair of jeans and not liking the way they fit. You return them and get a new pair. Why should the breeders have to give someone two dogs for the price of one?? If the dog does not fit the owners needs it should be returned for a new pup


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

On both of the dogs that had Leggs Perth, I did see records/xrays and talk to the two vets involved.I wanted the owners to know I would go with whatever they wanted to do and even though my contract said the puppy had to be returned to me after vet records etc were discussed, it was more for protection of the puppy. I did not want them PTS just because of they had an issue that could be fixed or because an owner was looking for an easy out.
Thank goodness both my owners wanted the puppys fixed and I also gave them another puppy and all ended well. On advice from some long time breeders, my contract did not give option of money returned, but a replacement puppy. I was told this would also help from a puppy being PTS and then being told said puppy was unsavalageable and already gone, so "give me my money back". I suspect that some bad buyers might even have false paperwork printed up saying said puppy was euthanized and "give me my money"... 
By stating that the puppy has to be returned to the breeder, at least if there is a real problem, then you get to see the puppy or at least talk to the vet about it first.
My friend, who breeds has had people demand their money back because their puppy now limping because it was hit by a car and he was no longer desirable. Or wants money back because puppy is now an adult is develops low thyroid or some such garbage.
Sometimes it is very hard to deal with the public buying puppies


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I like things to be up-front in my contract. Yes, I can and have gone over and above my contract in cases, but my contract requires OFA evaluation AND proof of spay/neuter. They can return the dog to me -- most people do not WANT to euthanize or drop the dog at a shelter, and if they are in touch with me, and decide that they do not want to go forward with the dog I will take him/her back. 

I am not so much concerned with a buyer putting the pup down. If they do it at a vet the pup will not suffer. I know that a dog can have hip dysplasia and never have symptoms. So I would not put a dog down for that, not unless they were in serious discomfort, and even then there are surgeries if the dog is young and didn't have other considerations. But I do worry about people taking a dog and dropping it at a shelter, or making it live with considerable pain because they cannot afford to have a surgery for the dog. I would rather the dog be put down than that.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It's about *both*; the people and the dogs.



Draugr said:


> And as others have said, you can always waive the return requirement.


Exactly. As I already said, a breeder can always do more than their contract requires. They can't do less. The contract needs to spell out the *least* the breeder would do for the least customer. Then they can certainly go beyond that for the rest. Having that clause in there can provide some protection for the breeder and for the dog, but it certainly can be waived and in most cases probably would be.

Breeders don't want a dog returned. Why would they? It is an expense and inconvenience that they must incur. Resell it? Yeah, because there are people clamoring to buy dogs returned to breeders for health reasons. A breeder is never going to make enough money on that situation to even pay for feeding and housing the dog for the time it took to find a good home.

Then the downside of a return clause is that if the buyer expects to have to return the dog, they might not even contact the breeder at all if there's a problem. That's not a good thing either. Hence why when we drafted our warranty we put provisions in for both options, return or no return, to try to cover all bases and make sure we protected ourselves and the dogs while being fair to the buyers and allowing plenty of flexibility for as many different situations as we could reasonably forsee happening.

We also don't have a replacement only policy. I know a lot of breeders do replacement only, no refund, and can certainly understand that because most breeders don't have a ton of cash lying around to hand out as refunds anytime anyone might call for one. But at the same time I'm sure every breeder has encountered at least one buyer that they wished they hadn't sold to, and certainly would never want to place another puppy with that person. So our contract is written where we have the option of doing a refund instead of replacement, should it be a person we don't want to place another dog with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Zoeys mom said:


> The breeder could resell the dog if the previous owner wanted to return the dog I'm sure it is simply a business decision. It's like buying a pair of jeans and not liking the way they fit. You return them and get a new pair. Why should the breeders have to give someone two dogs for the price of one?? If the dog does not fit the owners needs it should be returned for a new pup


I do not believe puppies and jeans are at all comparable! I hope you were joking with your post


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Our contract is very basic & simple.
We warranty our pups & dogs and always offer a replacement puppy/dog.....no dog or puppy *must* be returned for the replacement.....*however*, we also have a stipulation that if the buyer cannot keep the dog/puppy...the dog/puppy should be returned to us...*or*....allow us to assist & permit the re-homing.
_...We placed the "or" part in our contracts, in case there were ever to be a situation where an original owner could no longer care for the dog...a family member or other suitable, loving home could..._

I don't want a breeder to "mandate" that I return any dog that I bought to validate their warranty.....why would I want or require my "buyers" to do so??
If a buyer decides to return the dog/puppy of their own will......then.. that should be acceptable likewise.
again...JMO.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Zoeys mom said:


> The breeder could resell the dog if the previous owner wanted to return the dog I'm sure it is simply a business decision.


How in the world is a breeder going to re-sell a dog that has been returned for poor health or bad hips? A dog that's past its "cute puppy" stage _and_ has known health problems?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Emoore....I *know* of a large scale breeder that does it ...all the time.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I can't imagine returning a pet once he/she was in our home. A friend of mine once returned a whippet because it wasn't show quality and she had paid for show quality. She knew a lot about whippets. Still I can't imagine doing that. That's why I'm not sure I would ever buy a dog sight unseen though.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

robinhuerta said:


> Our contract is very basic & simple.
> We warranty our pups & dogs and always offer a replacement puppy/dog.....no dog or puppy *must* be returned for the replacement.....*however*, we also have a stipulation that if the buyer cannot keep the dog/puppy...the dog/puppy should be returned to us...*or*....allow us to assist & permit the re-homing.
> _...We placed the "or" part in our contracts, in case there were ever to be a situation where an original owner could no longer care for the dog...a family member or other suitable, loving home could..._
> 
> ...


This is all nice and friendly sounding, but it gives you no legal rights. You might want to run your contract past an attorney to make sure it says and requires what you think it does. It's very easy to get into trouble since only lawyers speak legaleeze and even they sometimes disagree, for example we got advice from a property law specialist once and it caused us to word things in a way that was very confusing to the contract specialist we later had look our stuff over.

In todays world of sue, sue, sue, and scam, scam, scam, anyone doing any kind of business has to armor themselves for the worst. When what you are selling is living breathing and has feelings you have to make sure you are not only armored but armed to be able to ensure a good life for your pups.

If someone is mistreating a puppy I sold them I want to be able to walk onto their property and take it back, at gunpoint if need be, so I can find it a great forever home. With a strong enough contract I might just be able to so that without being sued into the poor house otherwise the dog might be stuck, suffering, in a home I put it into and short of jail time there would be nothing I could do about it.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks for the advice...but I think that I will still keep my contract simple.
I am not a sue, sue type of person....and I do have an attorney (brother of a close friend) who specializes in animal law...in case I need one.....but I will pray that I never do.
I like the simple life....I don't want to change. 
*But I can see the legal reasons for strong, protecting contracts for both buyer & sellers.....it's a 2 way street.*


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