# Socialization Steps



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Hi guys!

I have a 4.5 month old GSD, her name is Baylee. She is timid and shy around people and other dogs. We are in group classes to help with socialization and her and I also go to parks and stores to obtain exposure. 

At the park, since she won't let anybody come near us (let me rephrase that, nobody will come near us because they see her bark as aggressive, whereas it really is just unsure), we people watch. When she watches them without barking, I treat and praise. When she watches me without looking at them, I treat and praise. My goal is to get her comfortable with the presence of people, dogs, bikes, strollers, scooters, etc. Then when she is comfortable, begin walking and letting her introduce herself to people and vice versa.

My question is, what is a good process to go by for doing this? How do I get her comfortable with people approaching and becoming receptive of human touch and interaction? 

Oh, and puppy classes she is usually shy at first, barks occasionally, and then mellows out. Won't let the dogs come near her, but is calm.

Thank you for your help, this forum is great!


----------



## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

JonnyMac said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I have a 4.5 month old GSD, her name is Baylee. She is timid and shy around people and other dogs. We are in group classes to help with socialization and her and I also go to parks and stores to obtain exposure.
> 
> ...


How much/what kind of socialization have you been doing up to this point?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Not a good idea to flood her with new experiences.Stay at a distance where she's comfortable.Move closer in increments she can handle over time.It could take weeks or months,she'll let you know.If she's not comfortable being approached by people and dogs forcing her just makes her more anxious.Be calm,don't make a big deal out of things,and she'll feel more confident.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Ripley2016, we have been taking her with us to stores and such since she was 10 weeks, not a lot of puppy interaction just people. We tried getting into classes around 10/11 weeks but schedules wouldn't cooperate, so we got her in right about 3.5 months. Haven't forced her to do anything just let her come out of her shell.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Dogma13, I agree. We aren't forcing her to interact with people - we are just slowly taking steps to get he confident and let her be okay. Just within the first couple of park visits she's gotten a lot better. Tries to further investigate (sniff or get curious) with things. It's just going to take time and patience, but I'm not sure where to go from that point.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What Dogma said,

But also if it was me, I would be working on engagement big time. Your dog sounds totally focused on the world around her, as opposed to being totally focused on you. Engagement makes all that just scenery.

You can find some good stuff about this from Michael Ellis.

While your dog is focused on you, she can relax and quit worrying. Protect her and do not allow anything that scares her to approach. Once she isn't boogering at everything all the time, you can start cueing her to look at stuff and rewarding a good response.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What Dogma said,
> 
> But also if it was me, I would be working on engagement big time. Your dog sounds totally focused on the world around her, as opposed to being totally focused on you. Engagement makes all that just scenery.
> 
> ...


She's very good with the "watch me" command. At the parks I can put her in a sit, watch me position and she will focus on me the entire time. I've had big families with dogs, strollers, and children (all together) walk in front and behind us and she never loses eye contact with me. In public she can quickly watch me and get praised and treated. So I think engagement is okay, or at a good level (there is always room for improvement!).


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

JonnyMac said:


> Dogma13, I agree. We aren't forcing her to interact with people - we are just slowly taking steps to get he confident and let her be okay. Just within the first couple of park visits she's gotten a lot better. Tries to further investigate (sniff or get curious) with things. It's just going to take time and patience, but I'm not sure where to go from that point.


Sounds like you're doing the right things,but if she's barking and growling you are too close.Put more distance between her and the scary people and dogs.
If she will watch and focus on you as you previously stated,then have her focus on you as you hustle on past the people and dogs.She doesn't need to interact,she just needs to ignore and not react.
Generally Gsds aren't very social with people and dogs outside of their family.That trait becomes more pronounced as they enter adolescence.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Dogma, we haven't tried walking yet just sitting and people watching. I engage with her as people walk by and for the most part she does okay. The times she barks is when we're sitting there and somebody walks a little to close too us, then she gets uncomfortable. Or if they walk past us to get in their car or something "close" - this probably could be fixed by just sort of getting her to focus on me at that point or move away from the person. 

She hates eye contact, and because she has such a beautiful coat everyone looks at her, can't help it. Most dog owners that do comment ignore her, or don't make eye contact and just converse with me and go about their business - these people she does fine usually. It's the ones who look at me, stare at her, talk to her, etc.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

JonnyMac said:


> Dogma, we haven't tried walking yet just sitting and people watching. I engage with her as people walk by and for the most part she does okay. The times she barks is when we're sitting there and somebody walks a little to close too us, then she gets uncomfortable. Or if they walk past us to get in their car or something "close" - this probably could be fixed by just sort of getting her to focus on me at that point or move away from the person.
> 
> She hates eye contact, and because she has such a beautiful coat everyone looks at her, can't help it. Most dog owners that do comment ignore her, or don't make eye contact and just converse with me and go about their business - these people she does fine usually. It's the ones who look at me, stare at her, talk to her, etc.


My Samson is the same,he finds eye contact that lasts too long threatening.I used to step in front of him to block and now he just steps behind me.He's not able to totally focus on me and will glance from me to the staring person and continue to become more tense.So what works for us is he slips quickly behind me and visibly relaxes.He's even been known to nap if I'm having a conversation that lasts more than a few minutesI want him to feel safe and calm.
That's only when we're out walking.Guests at home he's fine with.

So if you can get your girl to focus on you and it calms her that's perfect!Do what works best for her so she never gets to the point where she feels she needs to protect herself.Scared dogs can bite.She may totally get over this fear phase with your help.My guy never quite has but he learned what to do in order to deal with his phobia.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

That's reassuring I'm not alone! Haha. It is the weirdest thing because I've never had a dog that does that, so this is all new to me. But, I do sense that when she is in an unsure stage, watching me calms that and sort of puts her mind at ease. So maybe that is what I will try to do, just get her to focus on me instead of the "bad" thing. Kind of be her safe haven. I've noticed getting her engaged around others makes her a little more comfortable - but if we sit there and just strictly watch then she becomes anxious and unsure (probably because everything is staring at her). 

In our group classes she typically hides behind me or hangs out at my side (she's a clinger in public). Sometimes she'll venture out and sniff the other dogs, and she even licks them, but it's like the second one little thing the dog does or the person does that startles her it's all over, she gets barking and has a negative experience. Even with social service dogs who don't care, she still gets fearful with them and barks and all they're doing is sniffing her nose wagging their tail. 

There is a lot of work to be put in here. I'm just trying to make sure I'm doing the right thing or on the right path.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think you're doing fine.She'll pick up on your calmness and confidence and that's most of the battle.She'll know you have her back and she'll grow more confident.You are definitely not alone!There are a lot of threads on here from owners that are a little(or a lot) shook up by their puppy's transition to adulthood.We can help each other through it, and sometime between the second and third year it becomes SO worth it.Gsds grow into the most wonderful companions


----------



## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

I'm new to having a GSD too; my pup is 17 weeks. Not saying it's good or bad but she is completely different than what you're describing your puppy to be. My puppy seems to be fearless. My biggest problem with her has been socializing with other dogs, which I'm learning as others have said that GSDs aren't always friendly with outside people or dogs. I'm wondering if getting your pup out for walks to socialize her will help. I started taking Ripley for a short walk around 12 weeks after the second set of shots and we saw all kinds of stuff, from cars to garbage trucks to leaves blowing, dogs, cats, lawn mowers, etc. There's a ton of stuff to expose your dog to on a walk, plus good exercise. Also, watch how you react when your puppy shows fear. When your puppy is cowering or slinking back from something, don't pet her and say "its ok, it's ok," the way we would comfort a child. A dog will only interpret that as a reinforcement that they should be afraid. Instead, re direct and make it a non issue.


----------



## MollyMarie (Jan 22, 2016)

I think you're doing everything right.  You are exposing her to different people/dogs and allowing her to feel confident and safe through you - without putting her in direct contact with what she is afraid of. From everything I've learned that is EXACTLY what you should be doing. 

My puppy has fear issues and we unknowingly forced him to have close interactions with people. For several weeks, he barked (and warned us) that he was afraid, yet we would tell him "no bark" and leave it at that. We continued introducing him to new people and he became more and more afraid until one day he nipped my father's leg (upon their first meeting). Thankfully, it didn't cause any damage, but it was a wake up call that he had fear issues that we needed to addresses. Now, we take him on walks and drives and expose him to different sights and sounds - all from a safe distance. People will walk right by him and he's oblivious because he's focused on us. I'm not sure if he'll ever be the type of dog that people can approach (and pet) - but that's okay. As long as he's happy (and we're happy) and he is not a danger to anyone - that's good enough for us.


----------



## TrumpetsGo (Jul 20, 2016)

hello! im a newbie in this group...

i think the way they look at your dog is kind of aggressive. but for me, i think that your dog is just an overprotective when it comes to you..


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

JonnyMac said:


> Dogma, we haven't tried walking yet just sitting and people watching. I engage with her as people walk by and for the most part she does okay. The times she barks is when we're sitting there and somebody walks a little to close too us, then she gets uncomfortable. Or if they walk past us to get in their car or something "close" - this probably could be fixed by just sort of getting her to focus on me at that point or move away from the person.
> 
> She hates eye contact, and because she has such a beautiful coat everyone looks at her, can't help it. Most dog owners that do comment ignore her, or don't make eye contact and just converse with me and go about their business - these people she does fine usually. It's the ones who look at me, stare at her, talk to her, etc.


You may want to teach her to walk nicely on her leash with you rather than have just sit in one place which is likely more stressful. Having her walk gives her a focus other than her anxiety.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would not continually treat and praise for distance anymore, I would wait until a person is about 20 ft away and put the pup in a sit and do watch me and continually treat until the person passes. Only 1 person for a couple days, then two for a couple days, etc. Timing has to be good and always end on a good note. What you are doing is conditioning her to be around people without interacting. While she is in a sit, getting treats, she knows they are there but she is busy. 

I had to do this in steps with an older pup I got that was reactive. It takes some work but it does work.

As for confidence, play tug with her and let Her win. When she wins, make a big deal about it and say you won you won. She will prance away with the tug and her head held high.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Wow this thread jumped over night! Thank you all for the replies. To address what everyone said, she does interpret people starring as aggressive, but if I redirect her to me she relaxes. When she barks and cowers, I do not coddle her or give her attention - instead, I'll ether put myself in front of her to get her away from whatever is scaring her, or ignore her. 

We have tried walks but that is a different struggle. We can make it maybe 20 yards before she tries jumping into my arms and nipping because she doesn't want to go anymore. I usually ignore it, and keep walking. I've tried treating her every couple of steps and such but nothing seems to work yet (not long walks either). I've read this is a stage and they'll grow out of it, but she's been doing this since she was 12 weeks. 

Lastly, someone mentioned building her confidence with a toy. I do play tug with her and fetch and she loves it. I let her win to. She has gotten better because before she wouldn't even pull back just sort of hang it in her mouth. Now she'll whip it and pull and get into it, so when we have a good pull pull pull I'll let her win, and praise. I've noticed her confidence is increasing slowly, because now when she hears noises outside she'll get attentive and go investigate whereas before she'd run to me. 

Someone also mentioned overprotection of me, that is a good possibility. I don't care if she doesn't like people or dogs, I just want her to be happy and neutral towards them when we walk, or go on trips, etc etc.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

By the way, here is a picture of her!:


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JonnyMac said:


> Wow this thread jumped over night! Thank you all for the replies. To address what everyone said, she does interpret people starring as aggressive, but if I redirect her to me she relaxes. When she barks and cowers, I do not coddle her or give her attention - instead, I'll ether put myself in front of her to get her away from whatever is scaring her, or ignore her.
> 
> We have tried walks but that is a different struggle. We can make it maybe 20 yards before she tries jumping into my arms and nipping because she doesn't want to go anymore. I usually ignore it, and keep walking. I've tried treating her every couple of steps and such but nothing seems to work yet (not long walks either). I've read this is a stage and they'll grow out of it, but she's been doing this since she was 12 weeks.
> 
> ...


Go to the park, sit on a bench and watch the world go by. When you see something approaching that she will respond to, put her in a sit before she sees it. Use that watch me command and very high value treats. If you think you are losing ground and she is getting antsy, toss whatever treats you have in the opposite direction about a foot away, so that she is looking for the treats as whatever is coming passes.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

She was better at classes because it was too much to handle at once. Caesar Millan wrote about "Show dogs phenomena", aggressive dogs behave at dog shows because they cannot cope with sheer amount of excitement. At the moment she expects them staring at her (in her interpretation - exposing hostility), don't allow it to happen, call her away. Read your dog *before she barks* to prevent reaction. Only her posture changers, mouth closes and tail indicates something - turn your body away ( always *show your back to the trigger*), call her and engage in play. Your dog should get only pleasant experience with strangers during socialization, and that is very important. I use a ball as a training tool, she should expect something she likes from strangers you encounter. Socialization could be one of two types:
1. Training your dog to ignore people;
2. Training your dog to interact with people.
Your dog is a person, with her unique character, I think you don't have to struggle changing her protective attitudes and use Training 1.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> sit on a bench and watch the world go by.


 Wait for her to react?
That is only us, the humans, can sit without any purpose.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Wait for her to react?
> That is only us, the humans, can sit without any purpose.


Um no, this is where the humans see what is coming and get their dog in position to condition them to normal things in the world like people and other dogs. When in training, the handler MUST have all eyes on surroundings.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> She was better at classes because it was too much to handle at once. Caesar Millan wrote about "Show dogs phenomena", aggressive dogs behave at dog shows because they cannot cope with sheer amount of excitement. At the moment she expects them staring at her (in her interpretation - exposing hostility), don't allow it to happen, call her away. Read your dog *before she barks* to prevent reaction. Only her posture changers, mouth closes and tail indicates something - turn your body away ( always *show your back to the trigger*), call her and engage in play. Your dog should get only pleasant experience with strangers during socialization, and that is very important. I use a ball as a training tool, she should expect something she likes from strangers you encounter. Socialization could be one of two types:
> 1. Training your dog to ignore people;
> 2. Training your dog to interact with people.
> Your dog is a person, with her unique character, I think you don't have to struggle changing her protective attitudes and use Training 1.


The dog is not a person and the dog is not being protective. The dog is being reactive, period. She should not even acknowledge the people at this point in the game. Once she sees them, it's over. That is why it is important to do these exercises in a controlled, calm environment, like the park on a non-crowded day. The handler must be on top of it and have spot on timing.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

llombardo said:


> The dog is not a person and the dog is not being protective. The dog is being reactive, period. She should not even acknowledge the people at this point in the game. Once she sees them, it's over. That is why it is important to do these exercises in a controlled, calm environment, like the park on a non-crowded day. The handler must be on top of it and have spot on timing.


If she see's a person walking or approaching (not directly at us, just walking by) she will acknowledge that person or thing and if I don't cue her she will stare and stare and stare. That being said, if shes the person before I do, I can usually tell, and with a quick redirection and "watch me" command she'll turn her attention towards me and focus on me. I will continue to enhance this and probably work towards making her not even acknowledge people - but instead see them as "still furniture" - Michael Ellis.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JonnyMac said:


> If she see's a person walking or approaching (not directly at us, just walking by) she will acknowledge that person or thing and if I don't cue her she will stare and stare and stare. That being said, if shes the person before I do, I can usually tell, and with a quick redirection and "watch me" command she'll turn her attention towards me and focus on me. I will continue to enhance this and probably work towards making her not even acknowledge people - but instead see them as "still furniture" - Michael Ellis.


Try to get some practice in in an area where you see them before she does. It's really a good thing to get that focus on you before she gets focused on something else.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Try to get some practice in in an area where you see them before she does. It's really a good thing to get that focus on you before she gets focused on something else.


What would be the next steps after that? Say we work at getting her to focus on me before she see's something else, and she gets proficient at that, where do we go from there? Decrease our distance from the people?


----------



## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

German Shepherds in general do not like people outside their family anyway, they were bred for Police and Army work, to be protective and good at any type of search - that is what they were bred for. So, socialization for a GSD is different then socialization for a Lab. Majority of GSDs don't enjoy petting, they just tolerate it as something they have to come through. I remember one puppy we trained, this puppy used to lick my hand every time I told a stranger "Sorry, he is not friendly", he understood something was over with these words, later on he was burying his head between my legs when was told to move his face away. It is quite a task to train your dog to ignore possible triggers, training him to tolerate their touch could be a waste of time. Is it something wrong about saying "My dog isn't friendly"?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Exactly.In small increments.If 20 ft is too close start at 30 ft.Next time 25 ft.If it's obviously too much for her back off a little.Here's a good website that explains counter conditioning.Keep us updated as you go along Care method content - Care for Reactive Dogs


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Exactly.In small increments.If 20 ft is too close start at 30 ft.Next time 25 ft.If it's obviously too much for her back off a little.Here's a good website that explains counter conditioning.Keep us updated as you go along Care method content - Care for Reactive Dogs


Thank you for that link. I just read through it. It seems like what I am doing is along the right lines - now we just have to time it accordingly with the triggers. Triggers being, as soon as she notices the thing start treating and being calm and collective. With how smart she is I think she will get the idea of this fairly quick and soon make it a game. 
Thank you all for the help and input.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JonnyMac said:


> What would be the next steps after that? Say we work at getting her to focus on me before she see's something else, and she gets proficient at that, where do we go from there? Decrease our distance from the people?


Yes, exactly. I did this for about 4 months with mine. He was about 8 months from the shelter. 

The idea is to neutralize them with people. They don't have to interact, just be neutral, which is what you are looking for.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Yes, exactly. I did this for about 4 months with mine. He was about 8 months from the shelter.
> 
> The idea is to neutralize them with people. They don't have to interact, just be neutral, which is what you are looking for.


Perfect, that is what I want. She doesn't have to like people, I won't force her to, but as long as we get to a neutral point then that is all I care about. I will give this a go for the upcoming months and see what progress we make. Thank you so much.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Just a friendly update, we have been going to the park almost daily. She's excited to go and get there, but when she is out and see's people she gets a little fearful and usually barks. This lasts a little bit, just the initial part. She would notice a jogger, walker, stroller, kid, bike, etc and immediately I would start treating and praising, then when they pass I stop. She is getting to where she notices the trigger, looks at me, notices, looks at me, which is what we want. It is not every time, but it is getting better.

We had class on Tuesday and same thing, she was a little fearful and reactive at first (growling and showing teeth) - but once I redirected her and got her focused on me she would obey and I would treat and praise. 
She calmed down, got over that initial "AGH!!" feeling and began sniffing other dogs on her terms. She would go up and sniff their butt, sniff their nose, their ear, whatever. Sometimes would even give puppy kisses (not in a confident way, still sort of "skiddish" but wasn't so fearful). She would go up to the other owners and sniff them - everyone is instructed not to make eye contact with her, but if she comes up on her own, treat. She actually let a woman next to me pet her and rub her head for quite a while. She also wasn't hiding under me or under the stool anymore, she was actually by my side or walking out into the middle of the room. After class, we walked the store and on an aisle a young lady walked by us, said hello, and Baylee didn't bark and actually sniffed her hand. Same thing happened with another owner and a dog - she showed interest, didn't bark, attempted to approach and then the other owner walked off. I treated and praised. Seems like there is some progress, right? Well... 

Today I dropped her off at the vet's office - she is getting spayed. They called me to come and help get her out of the kennel because she would not let them come near her (showed FA: growled/show teeth,etc). 
I went to the vets, she came right out, walked with me to the room so they could sedate her, and check her, and was fine. Wasn't confident, but was more receptive toward interactions with the vet techs and such. Obviously she is comfortable with me around, probably because I am assuming she knows I will protect her and she looks up to me (correct me if I am wrong). How do we fix that situation? Or work on managing it? I was out of town last week and we had our trusted neighbor watch our dogs (they've watched our yorkies before, this was the first time with Baylee). We introduced Baylee to them right away when I got her, so that she would be safe and recognize them - frequent visits to our house to maintain the connection between her and my neighbors. We left, and she was fine. Baylee and my neighbors are practically BFF's. Why is she okay with the neighbors and not my presence, but yet fearful with others and not my presence?


----------



## SadTales (Jul 20, 2016)

I know how this feels. My male is 4 months... And does the exact same thing. Mine is worse with dogs though, he gets absolutely terrified, and hackles, and bares his teeth while tail tucking and running away. He than faced a tiny little chubby Pit bull puppy the trainer's friend's pup that was there, and the Pit Bull continuously wanted to play with him and wasn't terrified of him at all.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

It gets better over time as you introduce her to new experiences. You don't even need to have her interact with people, just her walking by a human is a good start. And most importantly, feed her treats for showing good behaviour around people.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Julian G said:


> It gets better over time as you introduce her to new experiences. You don't even need to have her interact with people, just her walking by a human is a good start. And most importantly, feed her treats for showing good behaviour around people.


Completely agree with that. And that's what I have been doing. Most people that walk by our house when we are outside she will usually just stare (sometimes bark for alarming me). If she acknowledges the person and doesn't do anything then I treat and praise. This seems to be working as she is getting more comfortable around people and building her confidence. This showed when we walked through the store, she was the one approaching people. 

It will take time and patience and hard work - but with what we have done I have seen progress and that's great.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Hey guys, another update:

Classes are going fairly well. She is afraid at first and then eventually settles down. We got sat next to another GSD mix who loves other dogs, and he actually sort of "instigated" her to get her out of her shell and before you know it she wanted to play with him (she was barking excitedly, licking him, etc). We were working on the "heel" command, and as we walked throughout the aisles she would actually disregard other people, dogs, objects, etc. She did good. That being said, it is almost 180 flipped at home (i'm assuming because she is not over-stimulated).

While at home, we will go out in the front yard and play or do training, etc. Whenever somebody comes by (walker, jogger, runner, etc w/ or w/o a dog) she will either do one of two things: bark, or stare. When she stares, we praise and treat. When she barks we do a leash correction followed by a "sshht" sound and if she quiets, then we treat. This seems to be working however certain people she will just lose it. 

Our neighbor came over and she barked excessively however, she wagged her tail the entire time. I do not think this was aggression, but more so uncertainty? I don't know. They came and sat down with us, and she sniffed her hand and took treats from her and licked her hand, but never was entirely comfortable. When they got up and left, she started barking again but this time hackles were there and she actually lunged (I had her collar and her controlled and corrected when she did that). How can we work on that? What are somethings to do for that sort of desensitization? What's weird to is its only with certain neighbors, others shes fine with. Shes a very selective dog and I haven't quite figured out why yet. 

On a side note also, how can you tell a bark difference between uncertainty, aggression, threatened, etc.? I would assume body language would also be a tell tale sign. Baylee always raises her hackles regardless, but also wags her tail. Her bark is deep and appears "aggressive" but I really do not think she means it that way.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Dogs wag excitedly when they are aggressing also.I suspect she is reacting more strongly because the people are making eye contact and staring at her.I wouldn't allow her to stare at passersby either.Just distract her so she doesn't dwell on them.Encourage her to ignore strangers.Sounds like you're making good progress!


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

JonnyMac said:


> Perfect, that is what I want. She doesn't have to like people, I won't force her to, but as long as we get to a neutral point then that is all I care about. I will give this a go for the upcoming months and see what progress we make. Thank you so much.


 With my next dog I won't have him interact with people. I used to have a problem with my dog running up to random people wanting to play because he saw every person as an automatic "belly rubber":grin2:.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Dogs wag excitedly when they are aggressing also.I suspect she is reacting more strongly because the people are making eye contact and staring at her.I wouldn't allow her to stare at passersby either.Just distract her so she doesn't dwell on them.Encourage her to ignore strangers.Sounds like you're making good progress!


That could very well be it. She HATES eye contact, will not tolerate it. And it's funny you say that because when our neighbors and us were sitting there talking, I would put her in the "watch me" command, and she would focus on me. When she focused on me there was no more barking. She would occasionally glance over at the neighbors sitting next to us but each time she did I would redirect her attention to me and she'd focus. Of course I treated this behavior to reinforce it. 

I am seeing some progress in passerby's as well - the further away the people are, the less reactive she is (i.e. she sees the jogger up at the top of the street, I begin treating and praising while the jogger gets closer and closer and goes by) = no barking, no reaction, just watching. She does this without me spotting the trigger also. 

Now, if someone appears right in front of her going around a corner or something, they usually make eye contact and then she loses her composure. Obviously we were well past her threshold. 

It's slowly getting somewhat better. But it sure is a process!


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It certainly is a process,lol!Samson doesn't react well to eye contact from strangers either.He can handle a glance but he'll give a little growl at the starers.
Sounds like you've got a handle on it so that's excellent!


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> It certainly is a process,lol!Samson doesn't react well to eye contact from strangers either.He can handle a glance but he'll give a little growl at the starers.
> Sounds like you've got a handle on it so that's excellent!


Does you dog, Samson, interact well with people and other dogs? Or do you more so have to manage him?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

JonnyMac said:


> Does you dog, Samson, interact well with people and other dogs? Or do you more so have to manage him?


Samson is wonderful with other dogs,even hostile dogs or fearful dogs.He can calm them right down.

He is genetically predisposed to be fearful of strangers,so I do have to manage that.Fortunately his first response is to move away rather than lunge.When he's uncomfortable he just steps behind me.If I want to stop and talk to someone he just slips behind me and will lay down and chill.He will growl on occasion if someone stares too intently.If I stand there and yap for longer than a couple of minutes he's been known to flop over and take a napSo basically my solution was to figure out how he could feel safe and never feel he had to lunge or bite to keep people away.

He's fine with visitors at home,solicits pets from some and ignores others.He's fine in class or trial environments too.The very first class we attended (18 mths old)he was VERY stressed and we stayed off to the side for 45 minutes until we could join the circle while everyone was sitting while the trainer spoke.Next class we sat out 15 minutes.After that he began to actually enjoy himself!

In hindsight,I should have taken him to class at a much younger age.Being in a controlled environment near the scary people was really good for him.I thought I would be rushing him but in reality I was holding him back.

Our next class is beginner novice obedience where he will have to be touched during "sit for examination".So we'll see how that goesOne of the trainers (not mine) believes I should put pressure on him and force him to be touched.I disagree.I believe it would erode his trust in me and build tension until he feels he has no choice but to bite to keep people away.He may feel comfortable enough in a ring environment to be touched but walking out and about it's not happening.Which is fine.At 2 1/2 yrs old he enjoys walking in town close to people and traffic,doesn't appreciate staring or petting,but never aggresses or gets tense for more than a second.If someone reaches toward him he hops away and keeps on going.
Didn't intend to write a novel,but maybe you'll find something buried within that you can use.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Thank you for that. Novel or not, it is good information and inspiring knowing that it gets better somewhat. Baylee graduated her beginner education course (mainly enforced sit, down, loose leash walking, watch me, come when called, etc). It was basic obedience most of which I taught already. We used that class as a way for socialization. Our next course is the intermediate level and we are in a class that has all GSDs. So it should be interesting. 

I continue to work with her with people and strengthening our bond. Right now I feel like she looks up to me, but in an unknown situation she feels as if she needs to take control - instead of letting me handle it. From an obedience perspective she is solid and exerts typical puppy behavior.

I'm still trying to determine if the fear part of her is genetic or lack-of-socialization. I want to say the lack-of-socialization is the main reason, because all of the things we exposed her to when she was little she is fine with (i.e. our other neighbors that watch her when I am out of town, noises/places we commonly go to, etc.) - I guess now it is just trying to expose her to all of the new things while battling with a somewhat more mature mentality and senses. It might also be resource guarding as well. I'm not to sure yet haha.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I totally understand.We're not experts and we proceed carefully in order to do no harm.As you get to know and understand what your particular dog is feeling and why, it really does get easier and you will be confident in your decisions for him.Please update as you go along


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Hey guys, another update here.

It appears that my pups confidence is growing (slowly but growing). She is starting to actually approach things instead of run away from them (this is only at the house). I think that might be because she views the house as "her turf" and she feels confident and tough on it. 

We have made progress with people/dog interaction, sort of. While on walks around the neighborhood, she will notice the trigger but usually ignores it and we proceed along the walk calmly (whoohoo!) sometimes she will let out a bark or lunge - but if that happens she is corrected. We are also engaging a lot on walks by doing commands like sit & watch me, or heel. 

What is still strange to me is that when we go to our group training class, she absolutely hates receiving attention from other dogs. What I mean by this is, she is still skittish while sitting there around the other dogs, but she will make the initiative to go and sniff and investigate the dog next to us with no reaction at all. Then, the minute the other dog tries to do the same thing and sniff her she gets reactive and starts growling, barking, snarling, hackles raised, snapping, you name it. The caveat to this is, she doesn't do that when the trainer has her. Only when she is near me. But yet if we walk the aisles in a line with the other group members (dog in front, us in the middle, dog in back) she does fine. I have no idea what to do about this behavior.

If the trainer takes her leash and begins to walk her around the circle of dogs allowing her to sniff, meet and greet, etc, she 9/10 does not react. She doesn't enjoy it, but she doesn't become a ridiculous mess. The minute I take back the leash and a dog or person comes up, she gets into her reactive state again. The trainer and I seem to think she might be "resource guarding" me (she is a huge daddy girl). 

We usually go on walks pretty regularly so we get that exposure, I have been taking her out into our front yard a lot more lately and working on engaging (commands and work), I have been taking her with me in the car when I run errands (to starbucks or to pickup food), etc etc. I would like to take her to Lowes, Home Depot, coffee shop, etc however it is literally impossible because of the way she reacts. It's not only embarrassing, but we'd probably get kicked out because she would come off as "aggressive" or "threatening". I have thought about getting a muzzle so she can get exposure and everyone in the environment is safe but I don't know yet. That being said, I have been taking her to our vet's office and PetSmart for additional exposure (and because they're used to dogs barking lol  )


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

here are some things to keep in mind as you socialize your pup

More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

car2ner said:


> here are some things to keep in mind as you socialize your pup
> 
> More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar


Wow, thank you for that link! That makes so much sense, and it's kind of like a "duh, why didn't I think of that" moment lol. I think we get so caught up in the socialization process that we begin to get tunnel vision and only see things the way we want to see them - instead of seeing them how our pup sees it.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Hi guys, 

It's been a while since I have posted in this thread (partially due to school and work!), so let me fill you in on what has happened.

Baylee and I got out of PetSmart training classes because I felt like she wasn't get the help she needed. I have nothing against PetSmarts classes as our trainer was very nice and helpful, he just couldn't address any of our problems without disobeying company policy (understandable). Baylee was excelling in obedience however nothing was being done about correcting her behavior towards people or other dogs - she wasn't getting the proper exposure. 

She was also starting to establish herself as the "leader" in the house and started getting very troublesome (biting when you'd tell her to get off the couch, growling and snapping when you walk near her sleeping spot, etc). That is when I drew the line and sought out a professional trainer. Luckily I found one within the same state as me and was literally 20 minutes away from my house nonetheless. 

We talked over phone about the problems I was having, we went over my end goals with Baylee (how I wanted her to turn out), etc. She came by for an evaluation, Baylee flipped out, and she said she would be able to train her but it wasn't going to be easy (as I suspected). 

After our first 2 training sessions I noticed a HUGE improvement. Baylee was beginning to be responsive to commands, attentive, and listening more. 

Well, on Wednesday we had our 6th training session together and it was at Lowes. Prior sessions were at my house. We started inside and worked obedience, moved to backyard and front yard and worked obedience, went to the park and worked obedience, and now we are going into heavier volume places. Baylee was a little nervous at first but within a few minutes she was listening and focused and had a huge puppy smile across her face. She did not bark at anybody, she paid no attention to them, she did all of her commands (sit, down, stay, place, child, etc), she was amazing. I was so proud! 

I have learned sooo much from all of this, and my trainer actually uses myself and my dog as brag case to everyone of her clients because of how much progress we have made. My dog went from barking, snapping, growling, and lunging to completely disregarding strangers. Wow! Our trainer actually thinks we might be able to do protection work later on - cool!

We are by no means in the clear yet, but the amount of progress we have made is almost to much to fathom. It's amazing. 

I CANNOT express how important ENGAGEMENT is with your dog. The reason she has gotten so good is because we have been working non-stop with motivational training and engagement exercises. 6 classes... 6 weeks... and it's like I have a totally different dog. I am stoked! 

Sorry for the rant guys - it's over now!


----------



## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Awesome! I want to stand up and cheer for you (but I'm in a public place, so I'll refrain, lol).

I love it when someone takes the time to come back and update and they have made some really huge progress! 

Way to go. You've obviously put a lot of hard work into your pup! The right kind of trainer can make a lot of difference as well.


----------



## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Awesome! I want to stand up and cheer for you (but I'm in a public place, so I'll refrain, lol).
> 
> I love it when someone takes the time to come back and update and they have made some really huge progress!
> 
> Way to go. You've obviously put a lot of hard work into your pup! The right kind of trainer can make a lot of difference as well.


Haha hooray for public inconveniences! Just kidding! 

The right trainer definitely makes a difference because they know how to work with you and your pup and can formulate a plan and goals. That being said though, I literally have no life because it has been dedicated entirely to my dog. Every time I get home from work we train and train and train. But the results are showing!

EDIT: I didn't mean for that sentence to sound like it was a burden or anything... I wouldn't change it for the world! My dog is my life and I love working with her!


----------

