# My trainer is advocating alpha rolls---- thoughts?



## read_003 (Apr 22, 2018)

Good evening!

I have a 3 yo GSD. I've been going to a very well recommended and popular trainer. My GSD loves the classes, and I've seen such an amazing progression in his manners and training I was glad I chose this trainer.

Now I'm questioning him, a bit.

We were in class the other day and he began teaching us how to "alpha roll" our dogs. I had never heard of this before, as I'm a relative new dog owner. Our trainer mentioned this is a good technique when your dog is aggressive towards another dog or human, but also recommended to us doing this EVERY day, to prove, as the owner, that we are stronger / dominant. 

I hated doing it. It felt weird. And my GSD didn't like it much either. 

My trainer also said that if an owner isn't strong enough to do an alpha roll in case of aggression, that owner may need to rethink about having that type of dog.

I didn't think much of this until a couple days later, when I brought my GSD over to my parent's house. They've been thinking of getting a GSD as well because of how awesome mine is, but they are getting a bit older and, remembering what my trainer said, I realized they might not have the strength to "alpha roll" a GSD.

So---- I decided to do my research, and to my heartbreak I found that this technique is pretty much frowned down upon today, ESPECIALLY as my trainer suggested as an everyday dominance thing.

How bad is this technique, really? Does it have a place in training, or even a scary situation where the dog is overtly aggressive? Do I need to find another trainer?

Thank you!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would either tell the trainer I’m not going to do it or find another trainer. It’s not necessary. If a dog is dominant or aggressive, it will make it worse. 

You are the consumer, you are paying his salary. If he gets defensive, walk away.


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## read_003 (Apr 22, 2018)

What he wanted us to do with "alpha roll", and while the dog was on the ground, lovingly pet him. But if the dog tried to get up before the time ended, or placed paws over our hands, we needed to keep / force our dogs on the ground until they calmed down again, the loving pet them.

Said we were bonding when we did this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

spring rolls , yes, jelly rolls , yes , alpha rolls? heck no.

conduct yourself as a calm , consistent , leader human , not as a "dog" in the scuffle.ala

alpha roll more or less disappeared until it resurfaced in the Monk's of New Skete . Lots of owners were
bitten by their dogs.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I would definitely rethink that trainer. That is a very good way to get bit right in the face. It will cause your dog to lose trust in you. There is no need to do it, and I would suggest you not do it again. I am glad you decided to read more about it!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There's no reason to ever "alpha roll" any dog.Your dog at 3yrs old is extremely unlikely to act aggressively.You would have seen any temperament issues he has long before now.Sounds like you and your dog have a wonderful relationship right now.I sure wouldn't damage that relationship by being a bully towards him and losing his trust.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Absolutely NOT. Run far, Run fast. Even the person who studied wolves and came up with the original theory of the alpha roll now says his entire theory is garbage.

the whole dominance theory is junk and very old school.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm not someone who believes all dogs are trained to perfection and learn boundaries simply by giving them treats....having said that if I was using a trainer and in your shoes....myself and my dog would make a 180 degree turn and walk away....Period......Daily Alpha Rolls ?????


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## read_003 (Apr 22, 2018)

Shanes' Dad said:


> I'm not someone who believes all dogs are trained to perfection and learn boundaries simply by giving them treats....having said that if I was using a trainer and in your shoes....myself and my dog would make a 180 degree turn and walk away....Period......Daily Alpha Rolls ?????


My replies are needing acceptance by moderators, so hopefully all of them don't happen all at once, haha.

Yes. Daily. He called in a bonding exercise. By forcing them to the ground, you are proving your dominance. And then you massage / pet them lovingly to calm them down, to "bond" with them.

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to find another trainer.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Absolutely NOT. Run far, Run fast. Even the person who studied wolves and came up with the original theory of the alpha roll now says his entire theory is garbage.
> 
> the whole dominance theory is junk and very old school.


pretty much my thoughts exactly


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

There are a lot of old school methods that I do advocate for some dogs. This is not one of them. It will at best forever damage your relationship with your dog, at worst it will start a brawl that win or lose, you lose.
The alpha roll was thought to be something dogs did to each other to show dominance. The actual roll is voluntary on the part of a submissive dog. Force a dog to give you it's belly is demeaning and with a weak dog will have lasting impact, with a strong dog will get you bit, or mauled.
I would be leaving this trainer far behind. Continuing even if you don't follow his rules is lining the pockets of a trainer who needs to stop training.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/736089-truth-about-alpha-rolling.html


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Run away. Far away. I have no problem with correcting a dog but the alpha roll is total nonsense and way outdated.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Your trainer hasn't actually studied dog training since '95 at the latest lol

I'm absolutely NOT an all positive guy by the way, Alpha rolls just need to go the way of withholding water during summer 2-a-days to "toughen the boys up"


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

read_003 said:


> -snip-
> 
> My trainer also said that if an owner isn't strong enough to do an alpha roll in case of aggression, that owner may need to rethink about having that type of dog.
> 
> -snip-


I didn't even read the OP first time, glad I did or I'd have missed this gem. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Guess your trainer missed the whole, we domesticated animals because they have physical gifts we don't but we're smarter than they are thing. If you get a chance, tell him I said thanks though. That was the hardest I've laughed in a couple months.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know that its a good idea with Shepherds, but I used to alpha roll my rott all the time.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know that its a good idea with Shepherds, but I used to alpha roll my rott all the time.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPeh9lKncY4


:rofl:


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

@Steve Strom your technique was incomplete, it was very clear that he needed a good what-for rub down to finalize your authority. 

Op, At 3yrs old, I bet your dog rolls himself for that wonderful belly rub, why would anyone want to force a position that a dog freely offers? It doesn't make any sense to me.

My boy rolls himself if he even thinks there's a smidgeon of a chance that he will get a belly rub from me. And the paw over the hand thing, poo on that, the paw is on top of hand, hand is above the belly or chest. When my boy lays his paw over my hand, my hand comes down closer to the chest, inviting more rubs. Lol.

It's also Interesting about the trust factor with such a vulnerable position and I don't know if it is a generalization, but when I think back, as a pup maybe 6mo and under, there was very little submissive self rolling and there was no need to force one. I can't remember when he started asking for belly rubs and offering that vulnerable position for them but dh remembers that at first, he only offered it to me and then the rest of the family members.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mine love belly rubs but it’s their choice.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Scarlet can’t flip over fast enough if I say “I’m going to slap your tummy!” (Yeah, I know that sounds obnoxious). If I was to try to alpha roll that girl, she would definitely bite me. No doubt.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

read_003 said:


> My replies are needing acceptance by moderators, so hopefully all of them don't happen all at once, haha.
> 
> Yes. Daily. He called in a bonding exercise. By forcing them to the ground, you are proving your dominance. And then you massage / pet them lovingly to calm them down, to "bond" with them.
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I'm going to find another trainer.


This is exactly how not to bond with your dog. Alpha rolls have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Dog training has evolved a lot of the last twenty or so years. Any trainer advocating alpha rolling a dog shouldn't be a dog trainer. 

I'm sorry, but there is no nice way to say this; your trainer has no clue on what he / she is talking about. Find a better trainer, the one giving you this advice is horrible, doesn't understand dogs or have a clue.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The alpha roll is like a zombie that keeps coming back from the dead in dog training. Just as mindless too.

I'd much rather have a dog who trusts me so much that I can nestle my face against their neck and snuggle close when they're relaxing on their side, and we nap together. Falling asleep like that together on their dog bed is one of the best things ever! That contented groan from the dog when you settle in close, followed by the last, heavy sigh before they fall sleep....pure bliss.

_That_ is what you get from a real bond, with dog that's 100% trusting, loving, and accepting. That's a relationship that's _earned _-- and you won't experience it from an alpha-rolled dog. And not all dogs even enjoy that kind of closeness....some just walk away. Mine love it, and they'd sleep that way every night if we could.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'd bet this "trainer" is a stand up comedian, practicing his comedic genius on unsuspecting pet owners. Anyone who could deliver this advice with a straight face definitely has a future in comedy! As a trainer, not so much...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*My trainer also said that if an owner isn't strong enough to do an alpha roll in case of aggression, that owner may need to rethink about having that type of dog.*

That is completely ridiculous. Your trainer has a lot to learn about handling aggressive dogs. I work with some really aggressive dogs, I can't remember the last time I alpha rolled a dog. It was probably 30 years ago. If you truly have an aggressive or handler aggressive dog using violence, which is how a tough dog will interpret an alpha role will simply increase the violence. There are far better, easier and smarter ways to deal with tough dogs. Ways that actually build trust, increase your bond and lower aggression. There are many non confrontational ways to control a dog and if needed show the dog who is in charge. I do not need to show or prove how tough I am to my dogs, if I did I would have issues. 



*How bad is this technique, really? Does it have a place in training, or even a scary situation where the dog is overtly aggressive? Do I need to find another trainer?*

This is a terrible and potentially dangerous technique if you don't know what you are doing. Alpha rolling offers very little in dog training that is beneficial. 

Yes, you need to find another trainer. Find a trainer that lacks ego, ego has no place in dog training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> My trainer also said that if an owner isn't strong enough to do an alpha roll in case of aggression, that owner may need to rethink about having that type of dog.


Are you sure this is exactly what was said? To a point, the down, a place command, those things can be a control exercise, putting a dog in a submissive position, feeling vulnerable depending on whats going on. I can't picture someone saying that or recommending it when a dog is aggressive,let alone saying you need to be physically strong enough to do it?


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

The club and trainers I am with are lean to the compulsion side on the balanced training scale. That being said, they have never once recommended alpha rolling a dog. Ever. I'm glad you'll be finding a new trainer. 

I can't imagine even trying to alpha roll an aggressive dog to show dominance just to get them to listen. What a great way to lose part of your face and end up with a euthanized dog.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I roll Inga on her back to rub her belly and to search for fleas. Its no big deal and she likes it. Our trainer, Don Sullivan, says to show and enforce the pack order do not let the dog get on the furniture and be on same level as you, do not let them barge out the door ahead of you, but to wait at the door for further instruction, and up to a point (true maturity) NILIF. All commands must be proofed and obeyed. In this way, it is not unpleasant, and the dog feels more secure and happy because it feels it does not have to assume leadership.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Do some of these trainers not understand the concept of updated training? Or that domestic dogs seldom actually pack up? Or that they are intelligent enough to comprehend that we are not dogs?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Hey OP, check this out about dominance. 
Leerburg | My Dog is Dog Aggressive: What Can I Do About It? 
Its very helpful in understanding pack order.


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## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know that its a good idea with Shepherds, but I used to alpha roll my rott all the time.


Hahahah, now this was funny. When we got my dog a year ago we were headed to Petsmart to stock up on the "necessary things" we thought we needed. As we were headed in, a lady with a border collie was headed out - and quite clearly she was frustrated. She kept saying over and over, "I'm the boss of you, don't you know that I'm the boss of you?! You are NOT the boss! I'm not going to let you BE the boss! I WILL NOT! I'm the one who feeds you and buys you toys and picks up your poop! That means I'm boss!" And her dog looked like he wanted to be anywhere but there. Quite clearly, she was doing the boss routine wrong


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think it's important to train a dog to allow itself to be laid over, or lay itself over on cue, have legs lifted up so you can get to, see, and tend to any part of the body. i think it's important this be trained with gentleness, patience and rewards so the dog is comfortable and relaxed. It has nothing to do with dominance and everything to do with caring for the dog.

My dog had his retained testicle removed and his incision was way up in the crease of the inside of his thigh---I don't know if I am describing that very well but it was way up in there and an impossible place to see or care for if the dog would not willingly lay down and either allow his back leg to be lifted or in his case he lifted the leg up for me because he knew i was trying to see up in there.

He's a 90lb dog and very strong. I'm not going to be able to wrestle him down and see that incision especially since he was supposed to be staying VERY quiet for the first week so any wrestling or fighting with him would have potentially put him at risk for major complications. But he calmly allowed me to see it and even laid still for warm compresses to help with some swelling. To me, that's really important. And yet another reason why I don't think we ought to be "alpha rolling" our dogs. That kind of bullying is the last thing I want on his mind when I ask him to lay down and let me look at his incision. 

I've had to use this technique with him in order to pluck ticks off his belly and that's another instance where I'm just not gonna get it done if the dog isn't cooperating. Here I am trying to get just the tick head with sharp tweezers and because we've practiced this and we have a relationship where he understands and trusts me he will lay still and let me do it. And sure he gets a reward every time because it helps keep him cooperative and again--he is 90lbs and muscular and strong. I need him to cooperate. My philosophy is, why on earth pick a fight with a big strong dog when you can ask nicely and he will reply nicely. Honestly he isn't food motivated enough by a long shot that the cookie outweighs the procedure, it's just a gesture along with verbal praise to let him know I appreciate his cooperation and he knows it.

I've gotten a long way with a lot of dogs by simply asking nicely--and with a reward history for practicing this behavior--


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Cowboysgirl, of course there's a HUGE difference between what you were doing with this dog, and alpha-rolling a dog! You did it with gentleness and patience and treats!

Every dog should be taught to allow its owner to handle all parts of its body, in case it needs veterinary treatment, or to be inspected for ticks, fleas and rashes. But that's totally different from forcibly alpha-rolling the dog!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

alpha rolling is meant to impress your dominance over the dog - essentially pinning the dog .

it was a training technique .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> Cowboysgirl, of course there's a HUGE difference between what you were doing with this dog, and alpha-rolling a dog! You did it with gentleness and patience and treats!
> 
> Every dog should be taught to allow its owner to handle all parts of its body, in case it needs veterinary treatment, or to be inspected for ticks, fleas and rashes. But that's totally different from forcibly alpha-rolling the dog!


Agree, huge difference. The point I was trying to make and maybe didn't was: what I wrote is the only purpose for "making" a dog lay down or go belly up, so to speak.

The only use I have for that maneuver is to be trained in a friendly way for the purpose of providing care to the dog--and forcible alpha rolling a dog potentially ruins that, in addition to all the other reasons that everyone else already stated why it's a bad idea.


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