# Offspring Inherited Traits



## beautifulGSD (Jan 6, 2021)

I am trying to wrap my head around the science and the logic of what offspring inherit.

*Everything below implies that any dog that has been bred is clear of all genetic issues, health testing, and obvious behavioural problems.

1) It is often said that one should get a puppy from a dam/sire that is titled and fully health tested. The reason being that you want a quality pup that has hopefully inherited those genes/traits. It is also said that you shouldn't breed those same health-tested offspring when they grow up without first getting titles, which in itself implies that there is still a pretty good chance that the puppy didn't inherit the necessary traits from the parents. What a dog learns during its life is not the same as the genetics that get passed on to the offspring so my question is: What percentage of the puppies from the health tested and titled parents actually receive the desired genetics/traits? For example, the pups that grow up pass all health/genetic tests, how many of them are likely to have inherited the desired traits? 

Follow-up question: Even if a pup that grows up to be healthy does not inherit the desired traits, what is the likelihood that dogs offspring may end up inherited the desired traits despite the parent lacking them (skipping a generation). 

I understand this can vary but is there a general approximation? I'm just trying to understand how strong the correlation is with traits being passed on to offspring.


2) Assuming a dog is clear of genetic issues and passes all health tests. Is it not true that with a decent trainer most dogs can get some of the basic titles at the very least. Unless they have relatively obvious issues with their nerves/drives and even then, oftentimes with enough training those issues can be overcome to get basic titles. By basic titles, I mean CGC, CD, etc.


3) Hope I don't step on any toes with this one but based on a lot of what I read in these forums, wouldn't a genetic/health tested working bloodline with no titles still be somewhat better for the breed overall than the vast majority of show lines even with basic titles?

I know that text is void of tone so I just want to state that I have been doing tonnes of research and everything above was genuine and not intended to be rude. I'm just trying to learn more. The show line aspect was after discovering on these forums that many of the bloodlines that make up present-day show lines stemmed from problematic genetics like those of Canto Von Der Weinerau (among others) and that the breed's structure was heavily impeded for nothing other than show purposes.

Any helpful links/research would be greatly appreciated. Currently reading The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture by Max Von Stephanitz to better understand the origins.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There is no such thing as fully health tested dog. You can't know with much certainty what genetic traits a dog will inherit. Titles don't change a dog's genetics and heritability based on titles is pretty much non-existent. Regarding a dog from working lines with no titles being better than a show line dog with basic titles, better than what? Working lines are breed for certain traits and show lines are bred for for certain traits. Regarding Canto, had poor character and hemophilia A, which he transmitted to all his daughters. This goes back to the Martin brothers dominating the direction of the SV and promoting their type of dog for large sums of money to naive buyers at the expense of the breed. To get as specific as you are talking about requires a very scientific approach such as using Hardy-Weinberg Law and Galton values and even then you are primarily looking at physical genetic traits not temperament traits.


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## beautifulGSD (Jan 6, 2021)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no such thing as fully health tested dog. You can't know with much certainty what genetic traits a dog will inherit. Titles don't change a dog's genetics and heritability based on titles is pretty much non-existent. Regarding a dog from working lines with no titles being better than a show line dog with basic titles, better than what? Working lines are breed for certain traits and show lines are bred for for certain traits. Regarding Canto, had poor character and hemophilia A, which he transmitted to all his daughters. This goes back to the Martin brothers dominating the direction of the SV and promoting their type of dog for large sums of money to naive buyers at the expense of the breed. To get as specific as you are talking about requires a very scientific approach such as using Hardy-Weinberg Law and Galton values and even then you are primarily looking at physical genetic traits not temperament traits.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have noticed breeders often takes into consideration extended pedigrees, the dam/sires health, the dam/sires drives/nerves/etc as proven via titles, and how well a breeder believes the dam/sire will produce a given outcome the breeder has in mind. The purpose of the titles is to demonstrate a dog's drives/nerves/traits/etc and those same items are used as justification for that dog being breed-worthy. Logically, that would only seem to be valid if those drives/nerves/traits/etc are likely to be passed on to the offspring.

In regards to "better than what" when comparing a health-tested working bloodline with no titles vs a show line with minimal titles; better for the continuation of the breed via more diverse genetics, longevity, minimizing major health issues plaguing the breed, ability to serve a purpose in society, etc. From everything I have read to date, it seems like the only purpose of show lines is to look nice and, unfortunately, many times at the expense of health? If I am misguided in this conclusion, it's not due to lack of research or trying to understand.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Titles don't prove much. GSD show line dogs get IGP titles with rating of pronounced courage and recommended for breeding when neither are accurate. Even in the working lines, you have to separate training from genetics. IMO, IGP is a poor test of a dog's breed worthiness. Sport, especially IGP, is far removed from real work and doesn't tell you much about a dog's working character. Regarding show lines, I think they are a bastardization of the breed and are actually a separate breed, which some research has supported. Every breeding is an experiment. Repeat breedings might be more reliable in predicting outcome. Some dogs are prepotent in that they consistently produce themselves in the offspring. IMO, the better pedigrees are made up of dogs with the traits a person is looking for who are producers of producers, meaning many of the dogs in the pedigree were strong dogs that produced strong dogs but genetics are not that reliably fixed so there is no guarantee to a breeding outcome.


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## oink (Jan 31, 2021)

I don't know anything about dog genetics, but it shouldn't be hard to grasp if you compare it to human genetics. I don't think you can determine a percentage because humans have 25,000 genes. There's no guarantee how they'll work together. Multiple genes could control one trait. It's not like coat color that is simple Mendelian genetics. Gene distance will affect traits. Chromosome crossover will affect traits. You can take 2 Olympic champion parents to increase the chances of their child also having Olympic potential, but honestly you won't know the child's potential until the child gets into the Olympics themselves. And then you might get children that aren't suited for sports at all. It's very much a genetic lottery.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I agree, with the difference being, humans are not selectively bred and the goals for breeding a certain breed for certain traits is much more defined, so selection and inbreeding increase your odds in the lottery if you do your homework and have valid information. Another issue is breeders not really knowing what they produce because there is little to no followup on a breeding unless a breeder holds litters back or place their pups locally requesting to see the progeny of a breeding to see what they have produced, which is not that practical or common.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bamadeus White Moon von Gorets


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Bamadeus White Moon von Gorets




www.pedigreedatabase.com





This is how inheritance works -in living color-.

Granted he's an extreme example, but that's what makes it so easy to identify.






Argota C-1289


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Argota C-1289




www.pedigreedatabase.com





see what they did there?









Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Coefficient for ARGOTA

Inbreeding: 0.21875 (21.875%)
AVK _(ancestor loss coefficient)_: *71.428571428571%*


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bamadeus White Moon von Gorets


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Bamadeus White Moon von Gorets




www.pedigreedatabase.com





7 out of 8 great grand slots take you right back to quanto. Meat and potatoes. Status quo. Macroevolution. Gradualism. Just the one one slot descends from elsewhere and she not only stamped it, she _stomped_ _all over it! _So while it's all too easily perceived or dismissed as "random," with just a few clicks we clearly see there's absolutely nothing whatsoever random about it. 

It may feel random, it may appear random; but there are no randoms, only variables. This same formula applies to any trait anyone cares to name, health issues, charecter, etc etc. The good, the bad, and the ugly


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