# Handling problems with breeder



## Kaisersoze28 (May 22, 2018)

I am a longtime member but this is my first post. I have used this forum for advice on so many occasions with my GSDs and would truly appreciate some sound advice/guidance from breeders/owners. I am not a novice GSD owner. I was raised with them and this is My third GSD. After losing my last beloved GSD to cancer, I have a six -month-old male German Shepherd that I purchased through a breeder. The breeder is new to me, although I was referred to them by A person who purchased another breed from them. I was very clear that I wanted a pet who would be happy playing ball, walking and being around elderly people and children, as well as other pets. Very long story short, my puppy has displayed problem behavior such as biting, jumping, aggression towards other animals, hyperactivity, extreme reactions when crated, insecure peeing (although house trained), etc. Nevertheless, I remain devoted to the puppy. As always, as soon as I received him at 13 weeks old, I signed him up for training. I’ve trained with a reputable retired canine officer and most recently, a trainer who has experience with “difficult” dogs. I have a dog walker, a pet sitter, I take him to two different day cares and my vet even brought his personal dogs to play with my puppy on a regular basis to help with socialization & insecurity. Nevertheless, all Of these professionals have now said that my dog would be better in environment that better served his high energy such as Shutzhund, bite 
work, etc. and that he is too high strung to be around children and other animals at this point. I still have not given up on him but truly want what’s best for everyone. Since this was the first time breeding with the mother, I also thought that a responsible breeder would want to know about his behavior for future placements. I am continuously in an environment that includes children, elderly people and other animals so it’s a problem. 

Ultimately, I reached out to the breeder for some input/advice, as all of these professionals can’t possibly be wrong. Perhaps the breeders response was a knee jerk reaction based on the fact that there is a contract indicating that the breeder will take the dog back. Nonetheless instead of offering anything useful, I received an ugly voicemail and email insisting that I send back the dog that I “ruined” since i was an “ineffectual owner.” I am utterly devastated And beyond stressed at the situation in and of itself. I certainly did not expect such behavior from a breeder. I have not ruined this dog. I am not in ineffectual owner. These behaviors have been consistent since the day he arrived. I am simply trying to improve our situation and find out what is truly best for everyone. 

I apologize for the long post but I am utterly at a loss, especially with this recent behavior from a breeder. I would truly appreciate some advice from the breeders and owners out there as to any steps that I could take that I havent already taken? Thank you so much


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I see your puppy is 6 months old, and that can be a difficult age with any puppy. My puppy at that age was very very active. Is yours getting adequate exercise? I didn't see anything in your description that sounds like your puppy is not typical of most puppies at that age...time and maturity will change much of it most likely.

That being said, the breeder's response is surprising. Could it be from the way you phrased your explanation of the puppy and his behavior? 

In any event, sounds like a difficult decision...


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Is there a particular behavior you would like advice on? As I'm sure you know, there are lots of experienced people on the forum who can help. I know you've already seen trainers, but if you share your general location, someone may have some recommendations for you.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience with your breeder. You don't sound like an "ineffectual" owner, and even if you were, the breeder is supposed to help you if you're having problems. That is one of the reasons to go to an experienced breeder. If you feel your pup is unsafe around children/elderly, and the breeder is willing to take him back, perhaps you should take him up on the offer. And try not to take his hostility personally (easier said than done). Sounds like the breeder is getting defensive instead of trying to help you. No one should be insulted for reaching out for advice. Whatever your situation, I am pretty sure that you didn't do anything to "ruin" your puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If the problem is how to deal with the breeder there are two potential answers.

1. Send the puppy back as the demanded.
2. Don't deal with them.

I would choose number 2 after the response you received.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Please don't be offended at what I am about to say. If the breeder actually said that it was rude and certainly not conducive to open communication.
At 6 months old a good many GSD pups have owners ripping their hair out and trainers claiming they are the worst dog ever. 
Off the top of my head I can only think of two or three of mine that were not this way. They tend to be energetic, bitey little s***heads.
Submissive peeing isn't uncommon, seems like a lot of young males in particular suffer through it. They seem to outgrow it by age one. 
Issues with crating and biting should have been handled right from the start but can still be taught now, you just need to get at it and keep at it. Jumping is also common and fixable.
I am curious what type/methods of training you have been using.
The breeder can't "insist" that you send him back. The dog belongs to you. You bought him. Dogs are property. Unless there is some bizarre contract clause and even then since a contract cannot legally ask or cause any party to violate a law and since accepting payment for goods constitutes a sale and sold property cannot be held by the seller once payment is received, nor reclaimed by a seller without due legal process it would be tough for the breeder to enforce.


I know it's tough to convey things through print/text, but unless I am misreading nothing you describe about his behavior sounds that bad. Sucky to live with, but not abnormal.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Ultimately you have to make the decision what is best for your family, you and the puppy. He sounds like a wired 6 mo GSD puppy in need of training, containment and consistency. Sorry about your breeder experience, I had a similar one with a sick puppy.


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## Kaisersoze28 (May 22, 2018)

Thank you so much for your responses. I am still reeling from the breeders response, so it’s nice to have outside feedback. Believe it or not, the tone of my message to her was much like the message above except that I went into more detail about all of my puppy’s problems and all of the different methods and training techniques used. Her response (in writing) was just that aggressive. Demanding that I said the dog back and saying that I was in ineffectual owner who ruined the dog. That was it. Not a single helpful word. It is really sad to see business trump ethics, especially when it comes to an animal. Ironically, part of the reason I chose this breeder is their dicta that they are always available to help. 

In any case, I am glad to hear that others overcame similar behavior. My puppy has no focus which i know is common at this age. However, he doesn’t seem to understand basic commands or retain words such as ball, toy,etc. 

Unfortunately, even with his excessive energy, he has no interest in interacting. He does not play ball or anything else in back yard. He prefers to dig holes, chew sticks or bark. 

And the biting. It is not mouthing or puppy bites. He grabs and holds on, or even bites while running by. When the trainer corrected him, he tried to bite the trainer in response. Similarly, he mauls the cat and bites him. This is a cat who grew up with and loved German shepherds so this behavior is very distressing to him. I regularly have to dig him out from under the bed where he is literally shaking. 

The jumping is also a problem as he is getting very big and knocks people over. If you ignore him and walk away he will jump on your back. 

He goes to daycare three times a week. He gets walked for at least 45 minutes twice a day on other days. He and I are constantly in my large backyard. We have tried the gentle leader, prong collar, Martingale collar. He’s crate trained, although he hates it. The newest trainer wants to try the clicker and food rewards, although I can’t Imagine carrying around food and a clicker for the rest of my life. 

Sincerely, thank you again for your help. I am in Fort Lauderdale by the way.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I'm not an experienced GSD owner, but from what I'm reading, I immediately think of two things myself:

1. Your dog does not see you as a leader or as someone worth listening to, which feeds into my second point...
2. All of the fun things in your dogs life have nothing to do with you, which is a big part of my first point.

It sounds like you have a dog who has more fun with the world around it than with you. It also sounds like he's learned which behaviours of his work to get exactly what he wants, such as jumping on your back to get a reaction. Not all dogs come hardwired with the desire to please you or engage with you. Sometimes it has to be taught, and it can take a long time to work on, but that relationship can be integral to helping teach appropriate manners and trained behaviours too.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

You don’t seem to want to put in the effort needed to retrain what was trained and yes bad behavior is trained. Raising a high drive gsd puppy requires ALOT of time and dedication. 
I firmly agree environmental (new home inconsistent training, allowing bad behavior can lead to a destructive, aggressive unhappy dog. Miserable for both pup and owner. 
If you don’t want to put in the time and effort and (yes it will take just as long to change the behavior as it did when it was created) send him back to the breeder. It may be best for everyone involved. Now, the breeder did not handle the situation in the right way and should have been more supportive. Puppies are crap shoots and while reputable breeders try their best to match a puppy for you some may not be the best choice. 
I know you will not like what I just said but I’ve seen this happen and the pup always pays the price.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

What did you actually ask the breeder for?


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Just a pet gsd pet owner and my opinion and thoughts are only worth what value you want to give them.

I agree that your pup doesn't see you as his leader and his entire world. I truly feel your biggest error without ill intent is sending your pup to doggie day care 3 days a week. Those places are free-for-alls most of the time. Sure the dogs are supervised in case a fight breaks out but that's about it. Your pup has way too much time valuing other dog relationships and not one with you or other humans in your home. Dogs play with each other by running, JUMPING, mouthing and yes BITING at each other. All the things your pup is doing to you and those in your home. He is trying to engage you the way he would another puppy or dog. Be advised he is also getting old enough and big enough that the doggie daycare will likely transition him into play space with more adult dogs soon. The could be a disaster waiting to happen. With other dogs he is coming to an age where he will lose his "puppy pass" with them. GSD's in general do not typically do well in large groups of strange dogs in open play environments. Some do....most don't. 
Trust me when I say that No One at doggie daycare is teaching your pup any proper manners while his there. As long as he doesn't start a fight or bite any employees he is free to do as he wishes the entire time he is there. 

Ditch the daycare. Spend time bonding with your dog. Start over with basic obedience and teach him the rules fairly and consistently. Exercise his mind and his body daily. Some are easy, some are hard. They all take work in one way or another. Or make the decision this pups temperament isn't right for you and your family and send him back to the breeder or rehome him to an appropriate home that can give what he needs.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Go on Leerburg.com and research all areas. From Cindys Q&A to the articles and free videos. This sounds more like a working line puppy. I would work his mind as much or more than the physical. And nothing In life is free. All meals and treats are earned. All back yard time is on lead to do his business and work with you. Just some things I think might help you build the engagement and relationship you need with this type of a puppy. No more freedom in the house to run amok. Tethered to an adult or in his crate or Ex pen.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The interaction with the breeder was unfortunate. Hindsight being wonderfully accurate and all, I would guess that the interaction would have been better verbally rather than in writing. On both sides. OK fine, it's done with.


But looking at the original post === this pup has too much inconsistent stuff going on. At least two trainers, dog walker, day care --- and I think a couple of other things (I'm too lazy to go back through the post again - I'm rather worn out from reading it twice already). I guess if it were a child, you would say "over stimulated"? It would take a heck of a laid back pup to handle all that's being handed to this one and he doesn't sound like he has more than three hairs of laid back in him.


Very likely a dog mismatched for this handler/owner/situation. Maybe if some of the stimulus is removed, he will get some equilibrium when he reaches 2 yo. To deal with the crate issues -- play crate games. The crate becomes something hopped into willingly (although under some circumstances - such as me leaving the house - much wailing and yeowling can still occur.) 



So my basic suggestion (to add to 'control' vs 'amuk' suggestions) "dial it back."


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Kaisersoze28 said:


> The newest trainer wants to try the clicker and food rewards, although I can’t Imagine carrying around food and a clicker for the rest of my life.


And you wouldn’t have to.
Hopefully this is not how it was explained to you.
A clicker is a type of teaching tool, like any other... food is a type of reward... like any other.
If your dog responds well to it, then it’s a option that is often found to be fun and engaging for young dogs. Since the dog “drives” the click, they have to think a little harder to figure out what you want.
It’s not going to solve all of your problems, but it’s another tool in your belt and a different way of learning for your boy.
It is very easy to transition to a verbal marker or mix up food, verbal praise, physical praise and toy/play.
Once a behavior is taught it’s taught.... put the teaching tool away until you want to teach something else.
Mine is in that messy drawer in the kitchen, you know the one


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In reading your opening post, the things that you said you wanted in the dog and were expecting...are things that are usually associated with an adult mature dog. The things you say YOUR six month old dog is doing, is consistent with a good German Shepherd puppy, that exhibits strong breed traits. This is what I would expect a good breeder to produce. I’m not going to assess communication between you two, but I think the above points are very important.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I didn't get a chance to read everything but I agree with whoever said daycare is maybe not helping. It can contribute to over arousal and hyperactivity. Dogs like this, people try to exhaust them with adrenalized activities and you kind of can't. Discipline and teaching dog to settle, boundaries and leadership, would achieve more than trying to wear the dog out.

The other thing I thought was--- sounds like maybe bouncing from trainer to trainer, lots of handlers, lots of changes, probably not helping. Which isn't to say you don't need to find the best trainer you can--just beware not giving it a fair shake I guess

And last-- be careful how you talk to yourself about the dog. You are saying stuff like the dog doesn't know the word ball and there seems to be an insinuation that the dog is really not right or something. I'm having a hard time putting into words what I think about this. Just try not to get too committed to the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with your dog because it will become a self fulfilling prophecy

You are obviously frustrated-- surely your dog knows this. Your dog might not want to play with you because you're frustrated all the time---not because it doesn't know what the word ball means. Is this making any sense? Avoidance behavior in a dog can look a lot like a stubborn dog who is just ignoring you

Last--- your cat is in danger!! I really think you need to segregate your house to protect the cat while you get things sorted out with your dog.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree with a lot if what has been said already. 

First- the breeders communication to you was unfortunate. But if playing devils advocate, I can see why they got defensive. You in a sense told them the puppy was "defective" and not what you wanted. I know that wasn't your intention, but I can see how it was taken that way. 

Second- your pup sounds totally normal. Honestly. GSD puppies are HARD. They are bitey, obnoxious, talk back, bratty, mouthy, jerks. They just are, even ones without "drive" 

But it sounds to me like you are being a "no" monster. Lots if trying to correct bad behavior, without actually teaching "good" behavior. 

With a GSD puppy, any puppy, you need to be the center of their world. You need to get down on your hands and knees and be a part of their world. You need to be in every moment and experience and share it with them. 

Story time: I am raising a working line pup right now. He challenges my patience everyday. EVERY DAY. Lol. But since he was a bitty puppy I have kept things positive. If he grabbed a shoe, I used a high and excited voice "what you got there?" He would come running to me with it. He was excited I was excited. I don't holler No. I turn it into a fun thing. If and when he brings it, it's exciting, and I changed it for something appropriate then praised him. When we hike, especially when he was younger, if he stopped to sniff and smell, I stopped I looked and we explored together. It built a bond. I was his partner. He learned me being happy was the norm. 

Back to you. It sounds as if your pup gets more joy from other things and not from you. He hasn't learned that YOU are the good. 

So that needs to change. And I think a PR trainer is a perfect start. A clicker and "catching the good" and shaping that and stopping the worry about the bad, will help repair this relationship. Because that's where I think your issue is. I think you set your expectations to far ahead. A puppy is hard and bad. But if you start right they do grow into the dog you want. Just like we don't expect a toddler to perform heart surgery, we teach the toddler to be compassionate and kind and have a desire to learn. Then as they grow up they can become a surgeon because we gave them the right foundation.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Excellent post gsdsar! 

OP, Yes, puppies og the GSD persuasion, are tough little monsters! But, oh so worth it! They are very demonstrative with their thoughts and feelings and want so much to be a part of your world... In every way.. They demand time and attention, but it is rewarded by love, devotion, fierce loyalty, intelligence, goofiness, and a relationship bond that is so rich and wonderful, it makes your heart hurt.. Involve yourself in your pups life, don't pass it off onto others.. Enjoy the growth and wonder these wonderful animals have in their world and you won't be disappointed


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

gsdsar said:


> I agree with a lot if what has been said already.
> 
> First- the breeders communication to you was unfortunate. But if playing devils advocate, I can see why they got defensive. You in a sense told them the puppy was "defective" and not what you wanted. I know that wasn't your intention, but I can see how it was taken that way.
> 
> ...


I agree. Telling them what not to do doesn't help them figure out what TO do. 

But, I also want to just say to OP-- I'm sure you had the best of intentions and you probably tried very hard and spent a lot of money trying to give your pup a good life and figure out how to fix the things that aren't going well.

So hopefully you don't feel criticized


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