# Can someone with experience look please?



## tuffloud1

I'm currently interested in this GSD puppy.

The mom doesn't have papers, the dad does. Both parents are owned by the breeder. Both parents are extremely friendly and unintrusive.

Can someone with experience take a look at the parents and the puppy and let me know of any issues that stand out? Thanks for any help!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/bentlyandpuppies022.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/bentlyandpuppies032.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/bentlyandpuppies046.jpg/


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## Lucy Dog

Have both parents had their hips and elbows x-rayed? 

Without that, I'd say no and that's before even getting into anything else.


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## sagelfn

tuffloud1 said:


> I'm currently interested in this GSD puppy.
> 
> The mom doesn't have papers, the dad does. Both parents are owned by the breeder. Both parents are extremely friendly and unintrusive.
> 
> Can someone with experience take a look at the parents and the puppy and let me know of any issues that stand out? Thanks for any help!
> 
> ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting


Sorry, I can't tell you anything from that picture. It looks like a GSD.

Issue right now is the mom doesn't have papers. Do either dogs have health certifications? At least OFA or Penn hip?

Here is a great thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## tuffloud1

I meant to post pictures directly on the page, not the link.

Here they are -


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## Catu

With this breed, I wouldn't even glance at a pup without parents cleared for hips. I am not that brave.

If you are going to buy from a breeder that has dogs with no papers, you loose all the benefits of buying from a breeder and the knowledge that comes with the study of the pedigrees. In that case, if I were you, I'd adopt and save my money for a better cause.


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## sagelfn

Do you want a cute puppy or a healthy stable dog?

2 great articles..
Getting a Dog, part IV Dogs for Defense K-9

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)

and this link again

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


I'm not a breeder but can someone tell me if it is healthy or normal for a mom nursing dogs to have ribs showing? I've always seen moms kept a little plump at this time


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## tuffloud1

Well, all puppies are cute. I want the puppy to turn out health and sound as an adult. Both parents seem healthy. I don't have 1000 dollars to spend on a dog. These people are asking 500.

I didn't ask if they have had the parents hips x-rayed. I will but I'm guessing they haven't. This is the first time they've bread the dogs and I don't think it is something they will be doing a lot of in the future.

What are the odds of a gsd developing hip problems?


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## robinhuerta

Brandi...it is normal....especially as the puppies start to get older and take more from their mother in nutrition.
I have females that look "plumper" in the beginning of nursing.....and "thinner" as the puppies grow and require more.
Close to the time of weaning.....moms are thinner...they quickly gain back their normal weight & tone....once pups are weaned.
The dogs in these pictures look normal & well kept.


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## Lin

If you don't have $1000, walk away from these breeders. The purchase price is typically the cheapest part. A hip replacement surgery can cost you 10K. 

Very, very, VERY high odds if the parents haven't been screened by OFA or PennHip.


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## sagelfn

Thanks for the info Robin


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## tuffloud1

robinhuerta said:


> Brandi...it is normal....especially as the puppies start to get older and take more from their mother in nutrition.
> I have females that look "plumper" in the beginning of nursing.....and "thinner" as the puppies grow and require more.
> Close to the time of weaning.....moms are thinner...they quickly gain back their normal weight & tone....once pups are weaned.
> The dogs in these pictures look normal & well kept.


Thanks for the information! This is good to know. Anything else you can tell me from the pictures?


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## tuffloud1

Lin said:


> If you don't have $1000, walk away from these breeders. The purchase price is typically the cheapest part. A hip replacement surgery can cost you 10K.
> 
> Very, very, VERY high odds if the parents haven't been screened by OFA or PennHip.


Is a screening costly for them to do? I haven't asked the breeders, but if I do ask, would it be unreasonable to request they have the screenings done before I purchase?


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## sagelfn

tuffloud1 said:


> Well, all puppies are cute. I want the puppy to turn out health and sound as an adult. Both parents seem healthy. I don't have 1000 dollars to spend on a dog. These people are asking 500.
> 
> I didn't ask if they have had the parents hips x-rayed. I will but I'm guessing they haven't. This is the first time they've bread the dogs and I don't think it is something they will be doing a lot of in the future.
> 
> What are the odds of a gsd developing hip problems?


Hip Dysplasia is very common in the breed. This dog will be with you 12+ years hopefully. Do you really want to risk it with a breeder who hasn't put a lot of thought into what they are doing? Keep saving and researching breeders, by then you'll have enough to afford a pup from a good breeder or maybe find a GSD in need of rescue


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## sagelfn

tuffloud1 said:


> Is a screening costly for them to do? I haven't asked the breeders, but if I do ask, would it be unreasonable to request they have the screenings done before I purchase?


HD is genetic. Part of the reason why it is important for both dogs to have papers.

Say the sire and dam do not have HD. That does not mean the puppies are okay or the deck is stacked in their favor. There is no way to know if the dam's pedigree has a history of HD. Do you have a way to check the sire's pedigree? Is the dog on pedigree database?


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## Castlemaid

About 20 or 25 % of GSDs have some form of hip or elbow displasia, depending on which source you look at. 

Here is a table from OFA on the percentage of displastic dogs broken down by breed:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

19% of dogs evaluated by OFA had some level of displasia. Keep in mind that these statistics are only for hip x-rays sent in to be evaluated. Many people, and many breeders never bother to have their dogs xrayed, and many owners will not bother to send in xrays that show bad hips.


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## Catu

Looking at the male, the coat seems quite dull, and since yes, I've seen many nursing mothers get that thin, adding both I wouldn't guess, only by pictures, that they are the most healthy dogs out there.

Believe me, I am not someone to push rescue every time I see the word "breeder" on the forums. But I'd also wait another year and save those extra 500 (which is exactly what I did with my last pup) and get a pup from a breeder I really trust with parents from a pedigree I really like than gambling with the 500 pups of the "only one litter before spaying" breeder. That is why I say "If I were you", because if I weren't willing to pay what a good pup is worth, then instead of paying 500 I would pay 50 at a shelter fee and get the same odds in terms of health and temperament.


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## robinhuerta

Only thing that I can tell you is...(perhaps you already know?)...the father is a long stock coat, and the mother is a normal stock coat.
The puppies pictured are also long stock coated puppies.
As for safe, sound genetics?.....no one can predict.
This breed has genetic issues that plague it.....Dysplasia is only one of them.
*Word of caution....be careful (very careful) when deciding to purchase any puppy from unknown lineage or medical history.....even with the best intentions, "genetics" can reap havoc on any individual puppy.
JMO...best of luck to you.


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## tuffloud1

sagelfn said:


> Hip Dysplasia is very common in the breed. This dog will be with you 12+ years hopefully. Do you really want to risk it with a breeder who hasn't put a lot of thought into what they are doing? Keep saving and researching breeders, by then you'll have enough to afford a pup from a good breeder or maybe find a GSD in need of rescue


Thanks for the advice. So from your experience, do you see any issues with the structure of these dogs?


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## sagelfn

tuffloud1 said:


> Thanks for the advice. So from your experience, do you see any issues with the structure of these dogs?


I'm not very good at conformation critique but without seeing a dog in a "stacked" position I couldn't even give you my best guess at it.


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## Castlemaid

tuffloud1 said:


> Is a screening costly for them to do? I haven't asked the breeders, but if I do ask, would it be unreasonable to request they have the screenings done before I purchase?


The cost of the X-rays vary by area and by vet. There have been threads here about what they cost, they seem to vary between 150 to 350 dollars as most common. Getting the x-rays evaluated and certified by OFA cost only 30 or 40 dollars? (can't remember, and I just had them done on my dog recently).

It would not be unreasonable to expect a breeder to have OFA'd their dogs prior to breeding, as I would consider it unreasonable to NOT do it! Who wants to be responsible for producing un-healthy puppies that will cost thousands and thousands of dollars to the new owners to keep them pain free?

How old are the parents to be? A dog needs to be at least two year old to OFA. 

Also, having two dogs with good hips breed does not guarantee healthy displasia-free pups, but it does increase the odds greatly. What really matters though, is not JUST the hip health of the parents, but the hip-health of the lines that the parents come from. A history of healthy hips down through the generations will be the best bet for getting a displasia free pup, and good breeders know their lines inside and out, going back several generations, and can tell you about the hip production of the lines, of the siblings of the parents, and of the offspring of other related dogs. 

People don't want to spend a lot of money on a dog, but going to a good breeder that does screen hips, and does understand the line-genetics of the the dogs' background is really worth it to up your chances of a healthy dog.


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## Castlemaid

Castlemaid said:


> 19% of dogs evaluated by OFA had some level of displasia.


Sorry, meant to say: 19% of *German Shepherd Dogs* had displasia. 

You also want the elbows screened and ofa'd. Elbow displasia is also very common, and another expensive genetic health issue that costs thousands of dollars in surgeries, and greatly impacts the quality of life of the affected dogs.


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## tuffloud1

Castlemaid said:


> Sorry, meant to say: 19% of *German Shepherd Dogs* had displasia.
> 
> You also want the elbows screened and ofa'd. Elbow displasia is also very common, and another expensive genetic health issue that costs thousands of dollars in surgeries, and greatly impacts the quality of life of the affected dogs.


What does a hip displasia guarantee provide you with?


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## tuffloud1

Catu said:


> Looking at the male, the coat seems quite dull, and since yes, I've seen many nursing mothers get that thin, adding both I wouldn't guess, only by pictures, that they are the most healthy dogs out there.
> 
> Believe me, I am not someone to push rescue every time I see the word "breeder" on the forums. But I'd also wait another year and save those extra 500 (which is exactly what I did with my last pup) and get a pup from a breeder I really trust with parents from a pedigree I really like than gambling with the 500 pups of the "only one litter before spaying" breeder. That is why I say "If I were you", because if I weren't willing to pay what a good pup is worth, then instead of paying 500 I would pay 50 at a shelter fee and get the same odds in terms of health and temperament.


Thanks for the response. What do you mean by dull? Do you mean greyish?


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## tuffloud1

I also forgot to ask. Is it normal for the puppies to have white hair on their paws? Some look like they have mittens!


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## Lucy Dog

To keep it simple... ask the breeder if the sire and dam have been OFA'd (pennHIP or A-stamps also acceptable) for both hips and elbows. 

If they haven't, walk away. I don't care how cute those puppies are and how great and healthy the breeder tells you that those dogs are. I want to see PROOF.

Hips and elbows certified by a third party is an absolute minimum when breeding two GSD's. If they can't provide that, go somewhere else. 

You should absolutely ask that the next time you speak to them.


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## robinhuerta

Yep.....it occurs....I have a couple with white mittens too. Most will fade or the pup will grow and they slowly disappear....but some stay whiter at the tips of the toes when they are adults.


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## tuffloud1

Lucy Dog said:


> To keep it simple... ask the breeder if the sire and dam have been OFA'd (pennHIP or A-stamps also acceptable) for both hips and elbows.
> 
> If they haven't, walk away. I don't care how cute those puppies are and how great and healthy the breeder tells you that those dogs are. I want to see PROOF.
> 
> Hips and elbows certified by a third party is an absolute minimum when breeding two GSD's. If they can't provide that, go somewhere else.
> 
> You should absolutely ask that the next time you speak to them.


I agree that the certification is definelty a good thing. It still doesn't guarantee the puppies won't have displasia isn't that correct?

Also, I remember her saying that the sire is somewhere around a year old. Is this normal to breed a dog this young?


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## Lucy Dog

tuffloud1 said:


> I agree that the certification is definelty a good thing. It still doesn't guarantee the puppies won't have displasia isn't that correct?
> 
> Also, I remember her saying that the sire is somewhere around a year old. Is this normal to breed a dog this young?


You are correct - OFA certified does not guarantee anything. It does stack the cards in your (or the puppy's) favor. Isn't that what you want to do when it comes to breeding or buying a puppy? Hip Dysplasia is genetic, but nothing is guaranteed.

As for breeding a one year old puppy, no, that is not common practice among reputable breeders. That is too young for the OFA to even certify the dog - they require the dog to be at least 2 years old.

Robin... I know you've been participating in this thread. What is the youngest age you'd consider before a dog is ready to breed? Once the dog hits 2 years or do you still consider that too young?


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## robinhuerta

Personally...I would not breed a dog before it is 2 yrs old.
I also consider each dog after it has turned 2...not all dogs are physically or mentally mature even at that age...(IMO).
Paul....I have a female who is 6 yrs old....OFA Good & Normal passing elbows...we still have not bred her. I've also bred females after their 3rd birthday for the first time.....so again, it all depends on what my program "needs" at the time.


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## tuffloud1

robinhuerta said:


> Personally...I would not breed a dog before it is 2 yrs old.
> I also consider each dog after it has turned 2...not all dogs are physically or mentally mature even at that age...(IMO).
> Paul....I have a female who is 6 yrs old....OFA Good & Normal passing elbows...we still have not bred her. I've also bred females after their 3rd birthday for the first time.....so again, it all depends on what my program "needs" at the time.


Besides not being able to do a proper displasia screen on a younger dog, will the puppies turn out any different when bred by young parents opposed to older parents?


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## Lucy Dog

tuffloud1 said:


> Besides not being able to do a proper displasia screen on a younger dog, will the puppies turn out any different when bred by young parents opposed to older parents?


Being a year old, you really don't know the dogs temperament yet. The dog is really still a puppy itself. 

Temperament, as well as HD/ED, is genetic. At a year old, do you even know the dogs true temperament yet? Are they mature enough to be bred? Is the female mature enough mentally to properly nurse her puppies? Are 15 year old (human) kids mature enough to raise a baby? It's kind of the same idea. 

A good breeder will match the right sire to the right dam to produce puppies with a temperament that is desirable (strong nerves, working ability, whatever the goal of the program or breeding was). This is going to vary from the different breeding programs and their goals, but breeding is about a lot more than just matching up two purebred dogs. 

This is why it's so important to go to the right breeder who understands genetics... How traits are passed on... How to match up the right dogs. Stuff you typically don't see with the average joe schmo breeding their two pets.


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## robinhuerta

To answer your question honestly.....I don't know.
What I do know is...puppies learn from their parents...especially their mother.
If she is too young and inexperienced..she may not properly rear her puppies and nurture them properly. If she displays nervousness, insecurities or aggression...the puppies will also learn these behaviours. *Proper physical & neural stimuli is crucial in puppy development*.
As for "health concerns" with either parents being too young for breeding...besides the possible complications of development in utero.?...I have no hands on experience to draw from....sorry.


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## Lin

Like Paul pointed out, there is too much you do not know at a year old. Temperament is not solid, no hip or elbow screenings, no eye screenings, and other health problems the dog may carry aren't present yet. 

Correct and screened parents is no guarantee against hip dysplasia. HD is a multi gene issue, its not a single gene. So you can have parents with great hips and a puppy with severe HD due to the combination of genes in the background. Not breeding dogs with severe HD is the best way to stack the odds. Reputable breeders also pay attention to all of the dogs in their lines, not just the specific parents. For example knowing if littermates of the dog to be bred had HD, not just the parents or grandparents. 

Genetics gets very complicated, and it takes a long time for responsible breeders to get to the point they're at. They typically start out as enthusiasts and learn and possibly begin their breeding under an experienced mentor. The price of a pup from a reputable breeder is higher due to all the work that went in to the dogs to prove them as breeding quality. Training, showing, health clearances. Most reputable breeders lose money on breeding because of all of the work they put into the dogs. But this is the best way to improve the breed and get the best chances at a happy, healthy, temperamentally sound family member. 

If you don't have the money for a reputable breeder, looking into a rescue is a great option. For the adoption fee the dog will already be vaccinated and spayed/neutered and possibly microchipped. If you go with an adult, you get a better idea of the dogs temperament and health status. If you go with a puppy, well you're looking at similar odds as the poor breeding pup but will know your money went to a good cause and you didn't support someones mistake. 

You mention this will likely be their only litter. Thats good, but selling the pups for 500 is not responsible in my opinion. First off letting the dogs get pregnant and not doing an emergency spay was irresponsible... But ok, pups are on the ground now. The responsible thing to do would be for them to vaccinate and spay/neuter all of the pups (to ensure their mistake does not increase exponentially) and then adopt them out. For the 500, they could definitely get this done prior to placing the dogs. Or they could drop the price to a reasonable fee and require spay/neuter contracts on all of the puppies sold. The situation looks like they're trying to make a quick buck and purposefully bred the dogs, or had an accident and now want to make a quick buck as a result instead of doing whats best for the dogs involved.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with all answers your getting. I'm going to throw out another thing to think about, if it's here and I missed it, I apologize.

You said you don't have 1000 dollars to pay for a better bred puppy..And I know alot of people don't. My concern is this, you pay 500 for one of these puppies, and along the road your puppy comes down with allergies, hd/ed, gastro issues, or one of the many other things that gsd's can be prone to...The vet bills could be enormous. Muc more than your initial puppy cost.. How will you pay for that? 

Your best bet is to do this, if you can afford 500, take that 500, and started adding to it..SAVE, look around for a breeder who at the minimum, does health testing, and knows whats behind their breeding.

All puppies are cute, and it's really hard to pass them up.. Honestly, if these dogs were ATLEAST 2 years old, had their hips and elbows done, and the breeder 'knew' what was behind them, I'd say go for it, but at this point, with the info provided by you, I would definately pass..


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## VomBlack

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with all answers your getting. I'm going to throw out another thing to think about, if it's here and I missed it, I apologize.
> 
> You said you don't have 1000 dollars to pay for a better bred puppy..And I know alot of people don't. My concern is this, you pay 500 for one of these puppies, and along the road your puppy comes down with allergies, hd/ed, gastro issues, or one of the many other things that gsd's can be prone to...The vet bills could be enormous. Muc more than your initial puppy cost.. How will you pay for that?
> 
> Your best bet is to do this, if you can afford 500, take that 500, and started adding to it..SAVE, look around for a breeder who at the minimum, does health testing, and knows whats behind their breeding.
> 
> All puppies are cute, and it's really hard to pass them up.. Honestly, if these dogs were ATLEAST 2 years old, had their hips and elbows done, and the breeder 'knew' what was behind them, I'd say go for it, but at this point, with the info provided by you, I would definately pass..



:thumbup:


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## 1sttimeforgsd

The parents are good looking dogs, the pup is gorgeous. The parents seem to be fine amid all those kids in the yard. What you can see on the outside looks good, it's whats on the inside that you don't know about as far as health problems. But that is also true with any dog no matter who the breeder was, yes reputable breeders can have pups with less health problems because they are screened but it does happen. 

The ball is in your court, you are the one making the decision, as for your original question I think that the parents are good looking and the pup is gorgeous. Good luck and keep us updated with what you decide.


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## x0emiroxy0x

From someone just like you, who spent 200 on a puppy to save money, understand you will end up spending a Lot more!!!

I ended up spending 1200 the firs 4 months on health issues that my vet said were because the breeder didn't take good care of the puppies.

If you don't have an extra 500 for the puppy- how can you afford vet care, kennel, over 50$ a month on food, toys, accidents, etc??


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## Freestep

Run, don't walk, away. Far away. No hip/health testing? Run faster.

Breeding a dog without papers is not very ethical. I'll bet they bought a pup on limited registration, then went ahead and bred it anyway.

One year of age is too young to breed.

As I understand it, you're not supposed to breed longcoats.

With the white paws on that pup, it wouldn't surprise me if a fence-jumper got into the mix.


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## Myamom

Look at this link and honestly ask yourself...is this a reputable breeder?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

Breeding a dog without papers...one year old...without health screening at the very least...the answer is no. Has the breeder screened You? 

The even bigger picture...morally and ethically...is that buying from a nonreputable breeder supports them...and enables them to continue. There would be alot less health issues, temperment issues and dogs being euthanized, sitting on death row and swamping rescues if people did not support non-ethical breeders and enable them to continue. 

Please support a reputable breeder or rescue.


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## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> With the white paws on that pup, it wouldn't surprise me if a fence-jumper got into the mix.


So who do I believe? You, or robinhuerta who just said that the white paws are normal? These are the conficting pieces of advice that confuse me.....


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## tuffloud1

x0emiroxy0x said:


> \
> If you don't have an extra 500 for the puppy- how can you afford vet care, kennel, over 50$ a month on food, toys, accidents, etc??


It's not that I can't afford it, it's that I have a budget on certain things. If problems arise I could afford it.

However, wouldn't getting insurance on the dog pretty much take care of medical issues, should they arise?


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## gsdraven

tuffloud1 said:


> So who do I believe? You, or robinhuerta who just said that the white paws are normal? These are the conficting pieces of advice that confuse me.....


Robin is an experienced breeder.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

:thumbup:


gsdraven said:


> Robin is an experienced breeder.


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## tuffloud1

gsdraven said:


> Robin is an experienced breeder.


Thank you, it is frustrating when I ask people with experience to give me advice and I get two completely different responses.

Thanks again Robin!


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> So who do I believe? You, or robinhuerta who just said that the white paws are normal? These are the conficting pieces of advice that confuse me.....


I don't think white paws are "normal", though they can occur in purebred GSDs. I'm saying that the breeder here isn't very ethical, and it wouldn't surprise me if a fence-jumper was involved in this particular case.


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## tuffloud1

1sttimeforgsd said:


> The parents are good looking dogs, the pup is gorgeous. The parents seem to be fine amid all those kids in the yard. What you can see on the outside looks good, it's whats on the inside that you don't know about as far as health problems. But that is also true with any dog no matter who the breeder was, yes reputable breeders can have pups with less health problems because they are screened but it does happen.
> 
> The ball is in your court, you are the one making the decision, as for your original question I think that the parents are good looking and the pup is gorgeous. Good luck and keep us updated with what you decide.


Does the sire's coat look "dull" to you as another person mentioned?


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## Freestep

His coat looks a little thin toward the tail... it could be he's just blowing coat, or it could be hair loss from a possible flea allergy.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

He is in the shade and lighting sometimes will make them look dull when they are not. He looks healthy with a nice full coat, I don't see any matting so someone must be grooming him regularly.


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## carmspack

skunk at the party time -- I was totally unimpressed with the sire and dam. 
The sire has quite a bit of colour paling -- washed out pigment. There is one picture of him sitting with owner holding on to his collar . Look at his feet , white mittens , difficult to see because the surrounding colour is also very pale . Also on his left hind hock there seems to be a boney swelling (think of foot bunion) . 
The croup is steep. Conformation is not good. Bone and substance are lacking. Masculine head lacking. 

The dam. Why does she not have papers. Do they know her pedigree? Did they buy her without papers to save money , which should not happen. Was she on a non breeding - limited registry . Was she a rescue? 
A dog CAN be without papers . But you MUST know what the dog's background is -- for breeding . You have to be able to critical assess the balance of her litter. You need to know health concerns in the entire family. 
I mentioned the can be without papers because I am between a rock and a hard place. I had a litter from a female that I imported from Czech . I had her bred "over there" to a male who now is in the USA , AKC reg . and producing some real good dogs. I have all the foreign papers . Can KC transferred the dam to my name on CKC. I have not been able to satisfy the needs for the CKC acceptance of the sire --- even though he is now AKC. very complicated. But I have this good male who looks like Emir Chabet , is related to him, who I have not used because of registry.
So that is an example of a good dog not having papers -- but definitely not lacking knowledge about his heritage.
The female in this thread is a mystery animal. Who knows the sire and dam of the litter could be brother and sister . 

Disturbing . In my opinion the dogs do not look to be in good condition. The hair looks as dry as straw . The muscle tone is flacid . The dogs just do not have any energy emiting from them. They look so worn out. No sparkle in the eye. No energy or spirit. Even looking in to the camera appears to be an effort.

The dogs are not engaged with anybody. One of the first pictures the dog is looking down at the grass near the lady's foot. Wouldn't it have been nicer if the dog had sat up looking at her . The male is off to the right of the picture , in his own world.
The garden scenes with the kids , once again the dogs are not engaged, even the tail hanging down as if it had a weight on it . 

I don't understand the comment that they were extremely friendly but unintrusive. That is contradictory. The GSD should not be extremely friendly with strangers. 

The dogs are very long bodied.

The croup is very steep. 

Who knows how they have been fed, what the pups were fed , which makes a big difference for health .



Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

the pups have white on their paws because of the poor pigment of the sire.

go back and look at the picture of the sire sitting (owner holding on to him)

he is very pale , and his toe nails are white . standard calls for dark , black nails
which are stronger have more density so are less likely to split (nail bed, toe infection).

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## SchDDR

Bad color, bad coats, badly mismarked puppy, no health testing, BYB.

I'm sure the puppies are every bit as sweet and cute as every other puppy.

If I was concerned about a budget, that last thing I would do would be to deliberately purchase a puppy who was a statistically higher risk of developing a variety of extremely expensive health issues, courtesy of people allowing dogs to mate who know absolutely nothing about genetics, and haven't even taken the time to health test the dogs.

If you want a badly bred puppy from untested parents, you can get one for $450 less by going to your local pound. Don't give people like this money and encourage them to repeat their mistake.


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## tuffloud1

Ok, I'm going to take all your advice and walk away. 

With that said, I'd appreciate any reccomendations for any reputable breeders near sacramento, ca.


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## katieliz

you have gotten some really good opinions from some breeders with lots of knowledge. no matter how cute this puppy is please walk away. for one thing, these people are asking way, way too much money for an unregistered dog. 

allocating your "budget" the way you have is not a wise thing to do. you will pay in the end with your heart. even purchasing a registered puppy from a reputable breeder carries risk...why not either minimize your risk or rescue a shepherd in need. there are so many...

take care, hope all the opinions help...they mostly seem to be unanimous.


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## idahospud49

Well, welcome to the forum!


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## tuffloud1

I just contacted the breeder and told her I will pass.

Thanks for all the advice everyone! You are all very helpful. 

Again, if anyone can point me to reputable breeders near the Sacramento/Roseville California area, please do!


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## Emoore

Good job tuffloud!


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## NancyJ

One person (in your locale since you specified) who has been highly recommended to me is Julia Priest of Sontausen but she breeds working line dogs (not your typical german showline like the pictures).....and like most of the really good breeders, maybe one or two litters or so a year.......Expand to Southern California and I know of other working line choices .... others would have to answser at to the showline breeders (Such as Robin of Huerta Hof).

Many people buy from distant breeders if they want something specific - but if you are looking for a solid pet dog you should be able to find something in California. 

One thing that would help folks point you in the right direction is knowing what your lifestyle is like and what your expectations are for the puppy. And the "type" you want because there are American lines, German Showlines (like you showed), and a variety of working line dogs. A lot of variability in appearance and temperament and activity level. A good breeder is going to want to know what kind of puppy its home will go to in order to assure the best "fit" and may even recommend another breeder if what they are breeding is not what you are looking for.


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## tuffloud1

jocoyn said:


> One person (in your locale since you specified) who has been highly recommended to me is Julia Priest of Sontausen but she breeds working line dogs (not your typical german showline like the pictures).....and like most of the really good breeders, maybe one or two litters or so a year.......Expand to Southern California and I know of other working line choices .... others would have to answser at to the showline breeders (Such as Robin of Huerta Hof).
> 
> Many people buy from distant breeders if they want something specific - but if you are looking for a solid pet dog you should be able to find something in California.
> 
> One thing that would help folks point you in the right direction is knowing what your lifestyle is like and what your expectations are for the puppy. And the "type" you want because there are American lines, German Showlines (like you showed), and a variety of working line dogs. A lot of variability in appearance and temperament and activity level. A good breeder is going to want to know what kind of puppy its home will go to in order to assure the best "fit" and may even recommend another breeder if what they are breeding is not what you are looking for.


I just turned 30, I have a wife and two girls aged 2 and 6. I want a dog that I can be active with - running, going hiking, going to the river, parks, etc. I want to be able to teach commands and have a well-behaved dog, not just a dog that sits around as a couch potato. I have about a quarter of an acre backyard, well landscaped. I have a two very large side yards as well to make as a dog run for him to do his business. I want him in the house as part of the family. My wife and I both work full time, 8 hours monday through friday -days, but I am able to come home at lunch time to spend a little time with him to break up that alone time. I want a family dog that has a known presence, will protect my property, but also knows the difference between threats and non-threats. I really like the idea of raising from a puppy with my girls. 

The German Shepherd on this website home page is the ideal look for me:

index

Also, they are the closest breeder that seem to have a good reputation. I have not yet spoken with them yet, but if any of you know of them, please let me know what you think.


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## NancyJ

Then perhaps I have met one of their dogs. Dave and Marhy Lehman had an impressive showline male (I was in SLC Utah several years ago and met them - maybe 2006 - I think they have moved since then.)

Definitely look to be primarily showlines (that is not a judgement, just a statement) and look like they would be worth a visit.


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## Emoore

Yup, Valkyrie appears to be show lines and miles ahead of the first breeder you posted. Don't know that you'll get a dog from them for under $1000 though?


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## Lucy Dog

I don't have any experience with this kennel, but this looks like a much better option than the first breeder you mentioned.

This kennel health checks and titles their breeding stock - something you didn't see with the first breeder.

Keep in mind that puppies at this kennel are probably going to come with a higher price tag than the first breeder, but you're paying for better quality. 

Give the breeder a call and tell them what you're looking for. It seems like a show line puppy would be a good fit for what you're looking for. Give them a call and see if you get a good feel with what the breeder has to say. If you do, see if you can come out there and meet their dogs and tour their breeding facility.


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## tuffloud1

Emoore said:


> Yup, Valkyrie appears to be show lines and miles ahead of the first breeder you posted. Don't know that you'll get a dog from them for under $1000 though?


Ya, I don't count on it. I'm pretty much rethinking the amount that I want to spend based off the advice I received here.


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## Jessiewessie99

Good job from not going though with the BYB.

Since you are on a budget I would still look at a rescue(they do get puppies). Or save the money and go to a good breeder, some may have a dog at a decent price.The breeder you posted seems good. But don't completely rule out a rescue.


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## Freestep

I like that some of Valkyrie's dogs have gone on to work in police and SAR.

I visited this kennel way back when, probably 15 years ago, when I was first looking for a pup. At the time, the kennel was not at the owner's home, but he had a caretaker living on the property. All the dogs looked well cared for and appeared to have good temperament.


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## suzzyq01

tuffloud1 said:


> I just turned 30, I have a wife and two girls aged 2 and 6. I want a dog that I can be active with - running, going hiking, going to the river, parks, etc. I want to be able to teach commands and have a well-behaved dog, not just a dog that sits around as a couch potato. I have about a quarter of an acre backyard, well landscaped. I have a two very large side yards as well to make as a dog run for him to do his business. I want him in the house as part of the family. My wife and I both work full time, 8 hours monday through friday -days, but I am able to come home at lunch time to spend a little time with him to break up that alone time. I want a family dog that has a known presence, will protect my property, but also knows the difference between threats and non-threats. I really like the idea of raising from a puppy with my girls.
> 
> The German Shepherd on this website home page is the ideal look for me:
> 
> index
> 
> Also, they are the closest breeder that seem to have a good reputation. I have not yet spoken with them yet, but if any of you know of them, please let me know what you think.


I do have to say that your well landscaped backyard may get relandscaped as GS like to dig. Well, at least Sonar does! haha

Good luck, and make sure the parents are checked out and healthy. Although that puppy was cute, I agree with everyone that has posted you should look elsewhere. :hug:


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## sagelfn

:thumbup: Good for you tuffloud1

Your kids deserve a dog they can grow up with and a dog that will not be a threat when they start having friends over


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## tuffloud1

Has anyone dealt with this breeder?

What do you think?

HaleBishop


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## JakodaCD OA

no experience or knowledge of the above breeder, but they to, are certainly MUCH better than your first one.

I like that they offer weekly training classes too My suggestion, if you are able, go check out the two you've listed, meet the breeders, meet the dogs, go from there.

There are some breeders who are willing to take payments all you have to do is ask


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## Lin

I see that you're moving on and finding a responsible breeder. But you mentioned insurance, so I wanted to address that. Most pet insurances in the united states are a waste of money. In fact in my opinion they're all a waste of money, though some will disagree with me there. But usually what happens is if an expensive health problem pops up the insurance finds a way to weasel out of paying. And then you've just wasted all of the money you've put into the policy. Its much better in my opinion to put away a little bit of money monthly instead of paying towards an insurance policy. Look into getting care credit* for a vet emergency. That sort of thing. 

*care credit is a credit card specifically for medical costs, both human and veterinary. Many emergency vet hospitals accept it, as well as regular vet clinics.


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## NancyJ

On the 2nd breeder you listed, the halebishop (actually on any breeder) I would ask to see the actual documentation on hip and elbow status.

You can verify OFA status on any dog on www.offa.org. 

I am not sure what or who the IABCA but do not believe they are recognized by the any of the breed registries.


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## selzer

Is there any way you can know for 100% sure that the dam and the sire are not closely related?

Hip dysplasia, ya know, I wouldn't worry that much about that. Frankly, as a breeder, yes you should x-ray and certify your breeding dogs, and if possible, the dogs you do not intend to breed. Good information. But there are so many worse things out there than hip or elbow dysplasia. And, you can get hip or elbow dysplasia out of breedings where sire AND dam have tested clear of it. 

But if sire and dam are say sister and brother, or if they share a parent or grand parents. Well the chances of things like HD being problematic are even worse because you are narrowing the gene pool. 

So if she cannot trace her lineage, if they do not have a three or four generation pedigree on her that you can look at with the dog, to see if they do share ancesters, how far back, and what kind of dogs those dogs were.

I thought she looked skinny, how many puppies? Yes, they can get lean whelping and raising a litter, but we add stuff to their food to compensate. 

This is Jenna, 10 puppies 51 days old, she looks pretty thin, lost some tail hair:









Her second litter she GAINED weight, up over 80 pounds at eight weeks, seven puppies:


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> Has anyone dealt with this breeder?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> HaleBishop


It appears he doesn't title his own dogs, and he is offering a 1 year old male for stud. 

These are hallmarks of a BYB, in my opinion. 

He does have some nice looking dogs.

edited to add: it looks like the stud was pictured at one year of age, but is now 3-4 years old, but doesn't have an OFA number.


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## GSDElsa

If your personal budget is $500 and you have 2 young children--why not look at an adult rescue with a known temperment? GSD puppies are often times completely horrible to try to raise around little kids. Too much temptation to mouth and be rotten. Lots of people do it fine, but lots have a ton of problems. It's something to consider. GSD puppies are not called land sharks for nothing.


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## tuffloud1

GSDElsa said:


> If your personal budget is $500 and you have 2 young children--why not look at an adult rescue with a known temperment? GSD puppies are often times completely horrible to try to raise around little kids. Too much temptation to mouth and be rotten. Lots of people do it fine, but lots have a ton of problems. It's something to consider. GSD puppies are not called land sharks for nothing.


As I stated earlier, I am upping my budget. I have the time and patience to raise a gsd. I'm ready.


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## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> It appears he doesn't title his own dogs, and he is offering a 1 year old male for stud.
> 
> These are hallmarks of a BYB, in my opinion.
> 
> He does have some nice looking dogs.
> 
> edited to add: it looks like the stud was pictured at one year of age, but is now 3-4 years old, but doesn't have an OFA number.


What do you mean by title his own dogs?

If the prices are less than $2000, which is what Valkayre is charging, what do you think?


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## tuffloud1

I also contacted Valkyre and Rebecca referred me to Julia Priest. Then Julia Priest referred me back to Rebecca. 

Julia said that one of her dogs would be like selling a formula Porsche to someone for a family van.

So I put myself on the waiting list for Valkyre, although I am a little nauteous when thinking of spending 2 grand on a dog.

I'd like to find one for a max of $1000. Not sure if it is possible to get a nice dog for that price, but I'll keep looking. I'm waiting for Halebishop to call me back on all their info and pricing.


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## Lucy Dog

tuffloud1 said:


> What do you mean by title his own dogs?


You can either title the dog yourself or buy the dog already titled. Titling the dog yourself involves actually participating in the activity (ScH, agility, whatever) with the dog and seeing first hand how the dog performs or you can buy the dog as breeding stock that has already been titled under someone elses ownership. 

Both are common practices in the breeding world.

My personal preference goes with the people/breeders who actually get involved and work the dogs themselves. Any Joe Schmo with money can buy dogs already trained and with titles and breed them. It's the real enthusiast and people that love the breed that work with the dogs to achieve those titles. 



tuffloud1 said:


> So I put myself on the waiting list for Valkyre, although I am a little nauteous when thinking of spending 2 grand on a dog.


Generally speaking, $2k for a good west german show line puppy is actually a pretty decent price. Definitely not unheard of when it comes to the show lines and can actually go much higher depending on the breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA

If your not "stuck" on lines/color check out Kim @ Justk9's.. JustK9s Home
not sure what part of CA she is or if she has something that would fit your lifestyle, but she has beautiful dogs.


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## onyx'girl

tuffloud1 said:


> I also contacted Valkyre and Rebecca referred me to Julia Priest. Then Julia Priest referred me back to Rebecca.
> 
> Julia said that one of her dogs would be like selling a formula Porsche to someone for a family van.


Wow...


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## Liesje

We could guess all day about the health and temperament of these dogs and how a puppy might turn out. Bottom line for me is that if I'm going to drop $500+ on a dog I'd rather pay someone who is doing things right. I didn't like the post that seemed to excuse the fact that these breeders are not doing clearances b/c this is their first litter and they won't breed often. So what? A breeder is a breeder, you breed a litter then you are a breeder and if you are charging money then there's no excuse not to do things correctly. I wouldn't want to give a breeder that cuts corners any of my money.

If you share where you live (maybe it was posted earlier, I can't find it) we can offer suggestions.


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## WVGSD

_I am not sure what or who the IABCA but do not believe they are recognized by the any of the breed registries. _

The International All Breed Club of America is the organization that gives the "International Champion" titles. I have several friends that add this title to their AKC and UKC titles on their dogs. As I understand it, in these shows the dogs are judged by several judges (often international) and there is no competition with other dogs. The dog is judged solely on whether or not it conforms to the breed standard (as interpreted by those judges). There are no handlers and none of the political issues that the AKC show rings have with regard to judges, wins, points, rankings and handlers. Several of my friends enjoy these shows and, as I stated, add it to their AKC and UKC titles on their dogs.


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## robinhuerta

A "Porsche" as a family van?....really?! LOL!......
Well then.....I have a few "Lamborghinis"...that I have been known to sell as family station wagons....and at "bicycle" costs........OMG!

*sorry for sarcasm...could not help myself*.


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## holland

Maybe porsche will start making a family van-thought the suggestion of rescue was a good one-especially if you don't like the idea of spending all that money-you can find really great dogs in rescue


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## Freestep

robinhuerta said:


> A "Porsche" as a family van?....really?! LOL!......
> Well then.....I have a few "Lamborghinis"...that I have been known to sell as family station wagons....and at "bicycle" costs........OMG!
> 
> *sorry for sarcasm...could not help myself*.


I believe what she meant was that a high-drive, working-bred dog is like a sports car, whereas a companion dog is like a family van. You wouldn't sell a sports car to someone who needs a family van.


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## holland

I think that people understood what was meant but thanks for explaining it to us


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## robinhuerta

Ok...understand now.....cause the original way that I interpreted it...was "not in a positive way at all"...


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## robinhuerta

Sorry Holland......I am one that interpreted it a "slightly" different....*I think*?
I interpreted it as "Their puppies being MORE than most...and not suitable for the normal family or buyer"....


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## holland

Thats positive? I am so lost


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## holland

robinhuerta said:


> Sorry Holland......I am one that interpreted it a "slightly" different....*I think*?
> I interpreted it as "Their puppies being MORE than most...and not suitable for the normal family or buyer"....


Isn't that what she's saying-Somedays i think I'm speaking a different language-next time I want a dog I'll forward my resume to the breeder-ugh


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## robinhuerta

Not "positive"....just different?
I don't agree with their statement.....but who am I to argue..? People say all sorts of stupid things...


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## Freestep

robinhuerta said:


> I interpreted it as "Their puppies being MORE than most...and not suitable for the normal family or buyer"....


More money, you mean? No. I am not sure what she is selling her current litter for, but her last litter was much less than $2000 per pup.

I know Julia personally, and I think I can speak for her when I say that she doesn't believe companion dogs are "lesser" and working dogs are "more". Every working-bred litter has companion pups in it, including hers, and I have two of them.  But I will say this... even though I got "companion" dogs, mine are still high-energy, drivey dogs and not everyone wants to deal with a high-energy, drivey dog. So I can understand her pointing you in another direction, after talking to you and getting an idea of what you want.

Working dogs and companion dogs each have a different role to play and neither is "better" than the other. It's all about a good fit for the new owner.


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## tuffloud1

Liesje said:


> We could guess all day about the health and temperament of these dogs and how a puppy might turn out. Bottom line for me is that if I'm going to drop $500+ on a dog I'd rather pay someone who is doing things right. I didn't like the post that seemed to excuse the fact that these breeders are not doing clearances b/c this is their first litter and they won't breed often. So what? A breeder is a breeder, you breed a litter then you are a breeder and if you are charging money then there's no excuse not to do things correctly. I wouldn't want to give a breeder that cuts corners any of my money.
> 
> If you share where you live (maybe it was posted earlier, I can't find it) we can offer suggestions.


I have already decided against this breeder as stated in a bunch of other posts here.

Also I live in Rocklin, CA. (near Roseville/Sacramento)


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## germaknee

jocoyn said:


> Dave and Marhy Lehman had an impressive showline male


That is Mary Lehman's dog on the index page noted.

Micky


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## tuffloud1

robinhuerta said:


> Not "positive"....just different?
> I don't agree with their statement.....but who am I to argue..? People say all sorts of stupid things...


I actually didn't even speak to Julia, I sent her an email giving her a brief description of what I was looking for. I told her I want to be very active with the dog, hiking, going to the river, running, parks, etc.

I guess I don't fit the criteria. I do find it interesting how I spoke with Rebecca at Valkyre and she reffered me to Julia, then was reffered back to Julia because her dogs are like "porches".

It's a bit confusing in that I explained to Rebecca the exact same lifestyle as I did to Julia, but Julia reffered me to Rebecca and Rebecca reffered me to Julia.


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## Verivus

tuffloud1 said:


> I actually didn't even speak to Julia, I sent her an email giving her a brief description of what I was looking for. I told her I want to be very active with the dog, hiking, going to the river, running, parks, etc.
> 
> I guess I don't fit the criteria. I do find it interesting how I spoke with Rebecca at Valkyre and she reffered me to Julia, then was reffered back to Julia because her dogs are like "porches".
> 
> It's a bit confusing in that I explained to Rebecca the exact same lifestyle as I did to Julia, but Julia reffered me to Rebecca and Rebecca reffered me to Julia.


You should call and talk to them.


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## Liesje

tuffloud1 said:


> I have already decided against this breeder as stated in a bunch of other posts here.


I was just making a general statement since often people "lurk" here and read about questions they may be asking themselves.


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## tuffloud1

Liesje said:


> I was just making a general statement since often people "lurk" here and read about questions they may be asking themselves.


Ah, good idea.


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## tuffloud1

Verivus said:


> You should call and talk to them.


I plan on it. I spoke with Rebecca but not Julia. Although, Rebecca may have reffered me over to Julia because Rebecca doesn't have a litter until fall. However that is fine with me, I put myself on her waiting list. It will give me time to save, however my wife is really not thrilled about spending $2000.:crazy:


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> I actually didn't even speak to Julia, I sent her an email giving her a brief description of what I was looking for. I told her I want to be very active with the dog, hiking, going to the river, running, parks, etc.
> 
> I guess I don't fit the criteria. I do find it interesting how I spoke with Rebecca at Valkyre and she reffered me to Julia, then was reffered back to Julia because her dogs are like "porches".
> 
> It's a bit confusing in that I explained to Rebecca the exact same lifestyle as I did to Julia, but Julia reffered me to Rebecca and Rebecca reffered me to Julia.


They are just trying to find the right match for you. Believe me, they have your best interest as well as the dog's in mind--if you get a dog that is too much for you, it's not good for anyone. GSDs tend to be a dog that needs a JOB, and if you don't have sport or work in mind, you'll need a type of temperament that will be OK with just hiking, running, etc. If neither breeder has a pup that is a good match for your family, keep looking... you'll find the right one eventually. It sounds like you are looking for a good, solid family companion rather than a "working" candidate, and these breeders may not have a "companion" pup available at the moment. Be patient and keep looking.


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## Josie/Zeus

It's the hardest thing isn't it? Choosing the right breeder I mean. We drove all the way up to MI to pick up our puppy, it took me a while to find the breeder I wanted. 

Goodluck to you!


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## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> They are just trying to find the right match for you. Believe me, they have your best interest as well as the dog's in mind--if you get a dog that is too much for you, it's not good for anyone. GSDs tend to be a dog that needs a JOB, and if you don't have sport or work in mind, you'll need a type of temperament that will be OK with just hiking, running, etc. If neither breeder has a pup that is a good match for your family, keep looking... you'll find the right one eventually. It sounds like you are looking for a good, solid family companion rather than a "working" candidate, and these breeders may not have a "companion" pup available at the moment. Be patient and keep looking.


Thanks, I really do want a companion family dog that is energetic enough to be active with me and able to learn commands. (probably and GSD)

I want him to act as a guard dog for when I'm at work as well.

I really want to find someone local and under $2000. Although I am limiting myself. I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing to take the family for a weekend drive to meet someone further.


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## NancyJ

I agree, Julia is one of a very small handful of breeders I have spoken with about my next cadaver dog prospect and our discussions have been about selecting the right dog for the right person at the right time. 

When you get with a lot of the quality breeders they may only have one or two litters a year or less, breed a given litter with a specific goal, and what they *have* available at the time may not be the perfect match for you.


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## Verivus

tuffloud1 said:


> Thanks, I really do want a companion family dog that is energetic enough to be active with me and able to learn commands. (probably and GSD)
> 
> I want him to act as a guard dog for when I'm at work as well.
> 
> I really want to find someone local and under $2000. Although I am limiting myself. I guess it wouldn't be a bad thing to take the family for a weekend drive to meet someone further.


For a showline puppy it is difficult to find a reputable breeder under $2k. For a working line puppy it's not that hard. Don't know how far you're willing to drive, but some showline breeders that I like:

German Shepherd Breeder Information | German Shepherd Breeder Mary Bryant

DM FREE German Shepherd PUPPIES from Wienerau Import Lines!!!

BULLINGER SHEPHERDS Breeder of German Shepherds Canada

and of course the Huerta's 

Huerta Hof German Shepherds


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> Thanks, I really do want a companion family dog that is energetic enough to be active with me and able to learn commands. (probably and GSD)
> 
> I want him to act as a guard dog for when I'm at work as well.


A well-bred GSD should do all that for you, it's just a matter of finding the right pup. I've never met a GSD that didn't have the energy to be active and learn commands!

Don't take it personally that a breeder turned you down--it's tempting to go to a BYB, I know, because they will pretty much sell any pup to anyone with the cash in hand. But reputable breeders make considerable effort to place their pups with the right homes for them--it's not to say yours isn't a "good" home, just maybe not the "right" home for the pups they have at the moment.

You might try True Haus kennels, in Oroville. I will warn you however, these again are high-octane working dogs and might not be the right fit for you, but as I said before, there is always that odd pup in the litter that is calmer and might be suitable as a companion.

German Shepherd Dog, True Haus Kennels

I know James and Cindy well, have trained with them in the past. I can tell you that they do stand behind their dogs and are always available for help, advice, and training.


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## vat

You have gotten some great advice and I really only want to add this. I bought my first GSD for $300, she came with huge temper issues! While I lucked out her health was always good I would NEVER do that again. My current dogs come from a breeder that has been breeding for 30 years, the parents have their hips and elbows certified. And yes I paid $1300 for my male and my female I adopted from her retirement program.

My point is these people seem like people that just decided to breed their dogs with no concern as to what they would end up with. I think it would be in your best interest to keep saving. Believe me there is a WORLD of difference between my $300 dog and my $1300 dog. Also what will these breeders do for you if your pup become ill? Is there a guarantee of any kind? My first pup did have health issues and my breeder stuck by me.. This is very important as any puppy (I am sure the breeders here will agree) can be born with issues no matter how great the parents. It is just mother nature and she can be quirky sometimes.


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## tuffloud1

Ok just got off the phone with a back yard breeder.

I realize this person isn't a breeder by profession, however, here is the info I obtained thus far:

Here are the email responses I have received so far:

yes, i have lineage history on both parents, and i can send you pics of both parents also.The father has been certified for not having hip displacia and i am going to take the mother in to have her certified. both of her parents were certified for it, so she should be fine, but i plan on taking her in to have it done also. I can email you pics of both parents. 

Hello, yes, both parents are registered with the american kennel club, and so i will be registering the litter. they are due next month. when they go to their new home, they will have been de-wormed, vaccinated and having a good start with potty training. the father is certified not to have hip desplacia, they come from good working blood lines. some are police dogs and they are show quality dogs from germany.I will be asking $800 for males and $1000 for the females and that of course includes full AKC registration papers.(not limited). I am located in Ukiah, but when the time comes, I am willing to drive about 45 minutes in either direction to help place my puppies in good homes.

Here is the blood lines for the Sire -

Harko Von Schloss Matzen Sire: Czar Von Schloss Matzen
Dam: Vac-Vagvolgyi Given


Czar - Sire: Gorbi Vom Farbenspiel-------------------------Sire:Mack Von Aducht Dam: Caty Vom Farbenspiel
Dam: Amsel Von Schloss Matzen -------------------Sire: Jango Vom Furstenberg Dam:Shava Von Schloss Matzen

Vac-Vagvolgvi—Sire: Sber V Steffen Haus ----------------Sire: Zapp Vom Monchberg Dam: Sarah Vom Nassauer Berg
Dam: Alag-Volgyi Fruzsi------------------- Sire: Filou V.D. Krauterwiese Dam: Cornavin Ivett

He is 5 years old and the dam is almost 3 years old. her registered name is :

Verochka Vom Nadelhaus: Her sire is is Whopper Von Trnje and her dam was Olexa Vom Nadelhaus.




On the phone, she said that all paperwork including family lineage, AKC and hip displasia screenings.

She also gave me a price of $700 on the phone and stated that the mother is 2 years old and cannot be tested for hip displasia yet, but both of her parents and grandparents hips were good and she has paperwork on that as well.

She also said that she got the mother from a place called "Natalist" or "Natalyst" in Sacramento. I can't find it on the web but she said they do police training.

Let me know what you all think and give me questions to ask if not yet answered. Thanks for all your help.


Here is a pic of the sire, she said she will send more but her computer froze up:


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## selzer

I do not think it is that out of the ball park. 

Yes, having OFA hips and elbows done on the dam as well would be better. It makes you wonder why they did not. If you breed the bitch -- she goes into heat at 24 months, and you could not OFA because she was in heat, and you wanted to not lose the breeding, then after the pups were weaned you would expect them to go ahead and test them prior to her next heat. 2 months in there to do this. 

So it makes me wonder why they did not. They could have pre-limed, I do not pre-lim, and would not expect others to, but I try to go ahead and x-ray prior to breeding. 

Sometimes, if the birthdate is just right with the heat cycle, it may make more sense than to wait six months and have puppies right at Christmas time. Hard to say. 

However, that the dam's sire and dam were clear of the problem is NO guarantee that she is. Just saying.


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## Verivus

I would ask for proof of everything along with the male's OFA number before I take her word for it. In this day and age people lie all the time. Personally, I would pass.


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## NancyJ

The thing you have to ask yourself if they are breeding their pets is do they know enough about the lines to know the pitfalls of putting certain dogs together. I think in the SHowlines where more in-breeding is required to maintain type that is an even more important question. There are a lot of things other than hips that can go wrong and you would be amazed at the amount of genetic research you see the serious breeders (still for maybe even one or two litters a year) go through to make the best combination. 

Yes, they are BYB - just a little step above the first one. If you look at hip ratings alone those on the dams parents (you can look them up on www.pedigreedatabase.com (the data is user-entered but a lot of folks use it and I think major errors on important dogs usually get fixed) you can see a lot of borderline hip ratings in the pedigree.

Even with great parents hip ratings "stack the deck" - a lot of breeders are looking at the hip production of siblings, ancestors, etc and not just the individual dog but you have to have the data to know. Then there are problems like dwarfism, weak nerves, bad structure, etc.


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## Freestep

You're supposed to get x-rays *before* breeding. What if the bitch turns out to be dysplastic?

I would pass on this.


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## suzzyq01

V Whopper von Tronje - German shepherd dog

Olexa vom Nadelhaus - German shepherd dog

Gorbi vom Farbenspiel - German shepherd dog


I searched Mom and Dad and found nothing, these are the only ones I could find. 

My opinion is if you have to ask yourself if this sounds kosher then it probably isn't. 

If I were this person I would state the OFA/Penn Hipp certs right in the email period. I guarantee if you ask for the numbers they won't be able to produce them or come up with a good story as to why they don't have them!


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## onyx'girl

Another thing to ask yourself is which type breeder do you want to support and get support from? I'd rather spend a bit more after saving a bit more, while researching a bit more and support a breeder that knows what and why they are breeding.
You'll then get lifetime support of what they produce because they care about what they are producing!
When I started researching for my next pup, I just kept socking away any $ I could so I didn't have to stress when it came time to purchase(and have leftover for the supplies and vetting). 
Worth waiting and saving for awhile as this pup will hopefully be living with you for at least the next decade.


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## Liesje

What are the names of the sire/dam? If they are "certified" they will be in the OFA or SV databases, easy enough to verify.


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## suzzyq01

Liesje said:


> What are the names of the sire/dam? If they are "certified" they will be in the OFA or SV databases, easy enough to verify.


It looks like based on the email response the sires name is Harko Von Schloss Matzen. He is the only one who is "certified". The dam is not.


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## suzzyq01

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I suppose I will eat my words if this is the father...


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## tuffloud1

Verivus said:


> I would ask for proof of everything along with the male's OFA number before I take her word for it. In this day and age people lie all the time. Personally, I would pass.


If she can't produce the information she claimes, I will pass.


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## tuffloud1

suzzyq01 said:


> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> I suppose I will eat my words if this is the father...


She did mention the sire is 5 or 6 years old. She doesn't own him, he is owned by someone close by.


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## Verivus

tuffloud1 said:


> If she can't produce the information she claimes, I will pass.


I would pass even if she was able to provide proof.


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## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> You're supposed to get x-rays *before* breeding. What if the bitch turns out to be dysplastic?
> 
> I would pass on this.


What if she gets the screening done before I get the puppy and she is clear?

She mentioned that both the dame's parents and grandparents were clear. She said she purchased the dame as a puppy from "Natalist" in Sacramento. I'm not sure of the spelling.


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## suzzyq01

Do they just own one female? I dunno this sounds so fishy to me. I would find a breeder that has pups from dogs that both have an OFA/Penn cert on them that is real breeder. I would still pass.


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## tuffloud1

Verivus said:


> I would pass even if she was able to provide proof.


Why?


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## NancyJ

I did not get the impression of any deception. I do wonder about the accuracy of the informaiton you posted - it would be very uncommon, I think, for an 11 year old bitch to have a litter of pups (the dams dams)

I am just not sure this is any better than the first litter to be honest.


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## suzzyq01

http://www.nadelhaus.com/

This looks like the breeder she got her from in CA.


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## Verivus

tuffloud1 said:


> Why?


I would pass because it doesn't sound like she is the type of breeder I want to support. What is her goal with this breeding? Just to sell puppies? Well that's no good. Is she trying to IMPROVE the breed? I doubt it. I like to see hip ratings on parents BEFORE breeding occurs, which she already failed to do which means she isn't being very responsible in that regard. If you asked her why she felt the sire and dam were a good match what would she say? What is it about their pedigrees that compliment each other? What does the sire lack that the dam provides and vice versa? How well does the breeder even understand their pedigrees (and yes this IS important)? How does she know that these dogs are worthy to breed? Does she work them? Does she title them? I highly doubt the breeder can answer any of these questions thoroughly, if at all.


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## tuffloud1

suzzyq01 said:


> Do they just own one female? I dunno this sounds so fishy to me. I would find a breeder that has pups from dogs that both have an OFA/Penn cert on them that is real breeder. I would still pass.


I'm trying to find a happy-medium here in terms of price and information provided. It gets a little excessive when the only option is to purchase a puppy that from a breeder that is world renowned. I understand the risks involved. I am trying to do my homework here and not jump into anything.

I don't think writing someone off just because they don't do this for a living is reasonable.

This is a family dog, I don't plan on doing competitions and what have you. If two great dogs are bred together, isn't this what ultimately matters?

$700 seems reasonable if she can provide all the documentation she claims.


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## onyx'girl

As you are new to the breed, I still suggest you slow down and research it more, while you save a bit more! But you will do what you want, and I don't think anyone here will give you justification to support a breeder that is just breeding to breed. I prefer to support a small hobby breeder that isn't doing it for a living, but that breeder knows what they are breeding and why they are breeding and have all the health tests done prior to breeding! 

Sloooow down and read some more about bloodlines and GSD's in general. Go to events so you can see dogs and what you want in your next companion. 
'Family dogs' still have to have a good temperament and health, that is most important.


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## suzzyq01

Tuff I think what we are all trying to say is that you should elect to support a breeder who is doing it for the right reason, as listed in the previous response. Supporting this "BYB" if you will who has purchased a decent bitch from a breeder and found someone who has a decent sire and created pups doesn't make it right. She happened to purchase from a breeder who offers full registration at a flat rate. She I assume will intern offer full registration at the $700 rate with AKC. You intern could breed your dog with a decent dog and so on and so forth. The whole point is that we are trying to have you support reputable breeders who are doing it for the betterment of the breed, do it for a living, and KNOW what they are doing! 

There are plenty of good reputable breeders out there and their pups are $1000. It's a hefty price to pay for a pet, but it is well worth the price. 

You are going to do what you want, but remember you asked the opinions of a peanut gallery.


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## selzer

I think the dog itself is from good lines. All the ducks are not lined up in a row. I think if you are needing to pay less for a dog, than you cannot expect all the ducks to be lined up. And, you can get a dog from a fantabulous breeder on paper, have a problem for which both sire and dam tested clear of, and get no better, maybe worse support from the breeder than this person will give. 

Have you talked to the person. Is he/she accessible (ie returns your phone calls). Is he/she knowledgeable? This is a hard question to answer If you do not know some of the answers. Like OFA testing can be done at two. However, it is NOT necessarily a good idea to do it if your bitch is in heat or coming into heat or just going out of heat. So while it can be done at 24 months, it may be better to wait until 26/27 months. It should NOT be done while the bitch is pregnant. They may have said they could not test her yet, and will test her when she is three. I would not necessarily trust this, though. 

This seems to be the major point of contention. You will need to decide if this is too much to gamble on, or not. 

Talk to the breeder. See if she seems like someone who has answers and is willing to make the time to answer them. Are they offering a guarantee/warranty?


I am willing to bet that there are some nice puppies in that litter who will have no more health problems than another dog, but if you are going to second guess and worry, it is probably best to just say no.


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## NancyJ

I don't think any of these more expensive breeders you listed would be what you call "world renowned" - they are still in the class of hobby breeders - most good breeders do this for the love of the breed and are lucky to break even.

I have a friend that has put together two breedings of two great dogs. Guess what one female had two pups another shows two on ultrasound. Take away the cost of the stud fee and the puppy costs and she is out money by the time she sells the pups. Another friend I think spent 2K for Artificial Insemination with frozen semen from a great stud. . The one with the AI got pyometra had to be spayed. No pups. Then it costs them a lot of time and money to title said breeding stock. There are some folks with lots of females that are making money at this but the average hobby breeder with a few breeding females ..... nah.....maybe enough to cover their expenses........can't be not more, not for what the pups cost.

The reality is ANY puppy is somewhat of a gamble. The more thought and effort that goes into the breeding upfront the less the risk that the puppy you get is going to have a heartbreaking problem.

As others have said - there is always rescue. Sometimes breeders will also rehome (for a price) retired breeding females into a good home to make room for more. Usually require them to be spayed but that may be an option

---

You can also check out working lines. Not going to get the same look of the black and red dog, but there is sometimes a more sedate one in the litter. Dont take that to mean couch potato. My 8 year old working line dogs are still crazy wild things. If I just put them outside without making sure they get mental and physical stimulation they become a backyard wrecking crew.


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## tuffloud1

onyx'girl said:


> Sloooow down and read some more about bloodlines and GSD's in general.


I appreciate the advice, but slow down? I'm not jumping into anything. I haven't even visited this lady yet.


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## tuffloud1

selzer said:


> I think the dog itself is from good lines. All the ducks are not lined up in a row. I think if you are needing to pay less for a dog, than you cannot expect all the ducks to be lined up. And, you can get a dog from a fantabulous breeder on paper, have a problem for which both sire and dam tested clear of, and get no better, maybe worse support from the breeder than this person will give.
> 
> Have you talked to the person. Is he/she accessible (ie returns your phone calls). Is he/she knowledgeable? This is a hard question to answer If you do not know some of the answers. Like OFA testing can be done at two. However, it is NOT necessarily a good idea to do it if your bitch is in heat or coming into heat or just going out of heat. So while it can be done at 24 months, it may be better to wait until 26/27 months. It should NOT be done while the bitch is pregnant. They may have said they could not test her yet, and will test her when she is three. I would not necessarily trust this, though.
> 
> This seems to be the major point of contention. You will need to decide if this is too much to gamble on, or not.
> 
> Talk to the breeder. See if she seems like someone who has answers and is willing to make the time to answer them. Are they offering a guarantee/warranty?
> 
> 
> I am willing to bet that there are some nice puppies in that litter who will have no more health problems than another dog, but if you are going to second guess and worry, it is probably best to just say no.


You see, this is a good example on where I get confused about hip displasia. The dame was purchased as a puppy from http://www.nadelhaus.com/

If it is true that she purchased from this reputable breeder, and the dog turns out to have hip displasia, wth?


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## juliejujubean

Lin said:


> If you don't have $1000, walk away from these breeders. The purchase price is typically the cheapest part. A hip replacement surgery can cost you 10K.
> 
> Very, very, VERY high odds if the parents haven't been screened by OFA or PennHip.


not only that, we had king a gsd, had bad hips, elbows (was on daily pain pill) and he had pancreatic infection. he was miserable no matter what we did. he ended up passing away when he was 8 years old in my and my fathers arms.... we did not know anything at the time about byb or puppy mills (believe me we have learned) and the sad part is he had "papers" ckc... ick. i would just say do your research... find a reputable breeder, while those pups could be the best dog in the world, the heart break is just way too much to handle... 
go with what ever your heart tells you, i wish you luck with your puppy finding journey.


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## tuffloud1

suzzyq01 said:


> Tuff I think what we are all trying to say is that you should elect to support a breeder who is doing it for the right reason, as listed in the previous response. Supporting this "BYB" if you will who has purchased a decent bitch from a breeder and found someone who has a decent sire and created pups doesn't make it right. She happened to purchase from a breeder who offers full registration at a flat rate. She I assume will intern offer full registration at the $700 rate with AKC. You intern could breed your dog with a decent dog and so on and so forth. The whole point is that we are trying to have you support reputable breeders who are doing it for the betterment of the breed, do it for a living, and KNOW what they are doing!
> 
> There are plenty of good reputable breeders out there and their pups are $1000. It's a hefty price to pay for a pet, but it is well worth the price.
> 
> You are going to do what you want, but remember you asked the opinions of a peanut gallery.


I understand and thank you for everything. Please stick around and keep giving me guidance. I will continue to post any information I come up with for all you to review and give your opinions.


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## suzzyq01

Let me just say one more thing. My boyfriend wanted an english bulldog really bad. So I started doing research for him. I already knew the breed is a mess and BYB have created even more of a mess of them. So I started bring my research to him. He realized that we could spend 3k+ for a dog that would still most likely have health problems of some sort. The best breeders cost in upwards of 5k for a dog. Once I brought all the facts to him about the breed and that reputable breeders offer a guarantee their dog will LIVE past two year (I think it was two maybe longer)! Because apparently they can just up and die! He said forget it! I wanted a GSD and started looking. It took me no lie, almost a year to find a breeder I liked that had they type of GSD I was looking for. Not to mention I was researching my A off about the breed, health, training, etc. I refused to pay more than $1500 for a dog and that was even a stretch. I would have paid more for him though, now that I have him. They are worth every penny. :wub:

I did find a breeder that I liked but they had only females in the litter. So I decided to wait, I wanted a male. If it is meant to be it will be, it is your decision to make. :hug:


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## onyx'girl

tuffloud1 said:


> I appreciate the advice, but slow down? I'm not jumping into anything. I haven't even visited this lady yet.


Good to hear, you should look at a few breeders/litters or at least dogs of the type you are interested in before putting down money. Buying a pup should take time, because hopefully the one you end up with will live with you for at least the next 10-12 years.


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## NancyJ

tuffloud1 said:


> You see, this is a good example on where I get confused about hip displasia. The dame was purchased as a puppy from http://www.nadelhaus.com/
> 
> If it is true that she purchased from this reputable breeder, and the dog turns out to have hip displasia, wth?


The inheritance of bad hips is a complex issue - nothing simple like coat color. Dogs way back in the pedigree can have an influence. Two excellent dogs can be put together and that combinaiton can create a dysplastic puppy. It is a statistics game. The better the dogs you put together the more likely the pups come out good. 

For example my dog has a dog Grim z pohranicni Straze close up in his pedigree - were I to breed him - (just a hypothetical case) I would want to be very careful that Grim was not close up in the other dogs pedigree becaues that combination is known to throw bad hips ... Even though my own dog is OFA Good...people have learned that the hard way. Breeders who have the right tools to research the lines, and are actively engaged with other Breeders know a lot of these things that your backyard breeder does not think about.


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> You see, this is a good example on where I get confused about hip displasia. The dame was purchased as a puppy from http://www.nadelhaus.com/
> 
> If it is true that she purchased from this reputable breeder, and the dog turns out to have hip displasia, wth?


Hip dysplasia is a complex thing--two HD free parents can still have puppies that are dysplastic. Having the parents certified free of dysplasia does stack the odds in your favor, but guarantees nothing. That is why you x-ray your dogs *before* you breed; just because their parents are free of HD doesn't mean they will be. Otherwise, there would be no reason to x-ray at all.

Does this breeder guarantee health and hips in the puppies?

I agree with the others who say not to support backyard breeders. It seems the dogs have a decent pedigree, and are probably nice dogs in and of themselves, but WHY is this person breeding them? Are they knowledgable? Are they trying to better the breed, or are they trying to fatten their wallet? 

No one breeds "for a living". The best breeders out there don't make a dime by the time they pay for all their expenses. There's the old adage: "If you make money breeding dogs, you're doing something wrong." 

You might want to check out Nadelhaus for yourself--they are reasonably close by, breed German showlines, and seem to have their ducks in a row. I have no idea what they are asking for puppies, but I'd guess a minimum of $2000.


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## selzer

I know I am playing devil's advocate here, but what is meant by "improve the breed"? I think the various lines of dogs have "improved the breed" so much that we have to ask the question on whether the founder of the breed would be horrified. I like the idea more of maintain the breed/breed for the future, and the breeder has some question marks there.

The OP is not wanting to spend an arm and a leg for a pup. He is not willing to pay for all the things that you people are requiring of a breeder. This breeder seems like she has some nice lines, and is beginning to get her ducks lined up. She is not there yet. But then, the OP does not want to spend the money for a pup from a breeder who does it ALL. 

So the OP has a choice. They can Pass on this puppy and save more money and buy a puppy down the road from a board-approved breeder (BTW, this board does NOT approve breeders as far as I know, sometimes the membership gives recommendations). They can throw caution to the wind and buy the puppy. Or they can go to a few rescues and get a puppy or a dog that way. 

I am not going to spend my dollars on a breeder that does not do what I think is important. But, my plans for a pup might be very different from the OPs. 

Is this place close enough to you to visit. Can you see how the puppies are raised, can you see the dam? 

If I was buying, I would want the hips done on the dam. She cannot do them before the pups are weaned. She is swelled and loose from having puppies. Things have to tighten up to get a good reading. If I was buying for a pure pet, well, I might go for it.


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## Freestep

onyx'girl said:


> Good to hear, you should look at a few breeders/litters or at least dogs of the type you are interested in before putting down money. Buying a pup should take time, because hopefully the one you end up with will live with you for at least the next 10-12 years.


Yup. When I first started looking at GSDs, I drove all over and visited many litters before I made any decisions. This was around 1995 or so--it was basically pre-internet, so I had to rely on classified ads, word of mouth, and phone calls. Research was much more difficult then and it took months to find the right pup.


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## onyx'girl

I speak from experience. My husband surprised us with a pup that a co-workers niece bred. 1st time breeding for the dam and no papers/health tests or titles(4-h doesn't count, right?) and she has an unstable temperament, and an allergy sufferer.
I couldn't disappoint my husband after he was so proud of the "research" he did to surprise us, but I sure wish I could have backed out!
For my next pup I did slow research and couldn't be happier! It pays to pay and get the best you can find, and my pup was only $1200, not 2 grand.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I know I am playing devil's advocate here, but what is meant by "improve the breed"? I think the various lines of dogs have "improved the breed" so much that we have to ask the question on whether the founder of the breed would be horrified. I like the idea more of maintain the breed/breed for the future, and the breeder has some question marks there.


You could say "maintain the breed", but that seems to imply breeding for the sake of breeding... the idea is to start with good breedworthy dogs, and improve upon what faults they may have (no dog is perfect) by selecting a breeding partner that is strong in the areas your dog is weak. This is where knowledgable pedigree research comes into play, and it takes a dedicated person to do this. Most BYB's just match up their dog with a nice dog nearby, with no thought to what the bloodlines may carry or how they may combine.



> If I was buying, I would want the hips done on the dam. She cannot do them before the pups are weaned. She is swelled and loose from having puppies. Things have to tighten up to get a good reading. If I was buying for a pure pet, well, I might go for it.


Hip dysplasia is just as heartbreaking in a pet as it is in a working dog. Ask me how I know.


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## selzer

Oh, people DO breed for a living. But you probably want to stay far away from those. 

As has been mentioned, HD is a complex thing, and you have to look at the sire and the dam, and how the dogs in the lines produce, and still, you might find that a particular combination has problems producing clear hips. I think there are worst things to worry about. Hip dysplasia -- there are options and degrees and certainly no guarantee that your dog will have any problem. 

But you have it wrong. The best breeder CANNOT prevent your dog from having a heart breaking issue. These are living, breathing creatures. About the only thing we CAN GUARANTEE is that, barring accidental death, you dog WILL have something, some type of disease/illness that will take him. We would all hope that they have a peaceful death at age 14, but that is certainly the exception rather than the rule. 

We support the better breeders because they are investing in the dogs, they are fighting genetic diseases, they are breeding for temperament, they are involved in the dog world, they are knowledgeable about dog-related issues, they treat their dogs good. That is the type of breeder we want to support.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> You could say "maintain the breed", but that seems to imply breeding for the sake of breeding... the idea is to start with good breedworthy dogs, and improve upon what faults they may have (no dog is perfect) by selecting a breeding partner that is strong in the areas your dog is weak. This is where knowledgable pedigree research comes into play, and it takes a dedicated person to do this. Most BYB's just match up their dog with a nice dog nearby, with no thought to what the bloodlines may carry or how they may combine.
> 
> 
> 
> Hip dysplasia is just as heartbreaking in a pet as it is in a working dog. Ask me how I know.


No "improve the breed" implies that the breed/breed standard is not good enough, and you want your dogs to stand out -- higher drive, steeper slope, laid back, over the top, larger, stronger, no-shed. 

What I think "improves" the breed, another believes murders the breed. What I mean by maintain the breed, is to breed dogs to be as close as possible to the standard. There is still ways to discern differently what the standard says, but we should at least be breeding to the standard. And that is not improving the breed, but improving upon our lines, breeding for the future and adding dogs that will improve this characteristic or that, but always trying to meet what is listed in the standard. 

A dog with mild hip dysplasia, even moderate hip dysplasia, sometimes even chronic hip dysplasia may show no symptoms at all and never require surgery. In another dog it could be crippling. 

The surgeons will suggest surgery no doubt. But I do not know that a dog will not have just as many if not more problems with surgery than if they are provided good supplements, kept at their ideal weight, and exercised properly. I think it depends on the individual dog, but also on the type of surgery, and perhaps on the surgeon. 

While it is not desireable, it is not a death sentence or even a sentence of a life of pain. 

But working dogs, police dogs, SAR dogs, it is the end of those prospects, if the dogs are lucky they become pets. And for breeding dogs. Well, of course you would not want to breed a dysplastic dog. You might have to make hard decisions on other animals of the same/related lines. 

If you are buying a breeding dog -- those hip certs should be in place. If you are buying a pet dog, well, you can gamble a little more if you are not going int schutzhund, agility, SAR, police, military. But unless you buy a dog with certified hips, it is a gamble no matter where you buy the puppy. Your odds might be better, that's all.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> No "improve the breed" implies that the breed/breed standard is not good enough, and you want your dogs to stand out -- higher drive, steeper slope, laid back, over the top, larger, stronger, no-shed.
> 
> What I think "improves" the breed, another believes murders the breed. What I mean by maintain the breed, is to breed dogs to be as close as possible to the standard. There is still ways to discern differently what the standard says, but we should at least be breeding to the standard. And that is not improving the breed, but improving upon our lines, breeding for the future and adding dogs that will improve this characteristic or that, but always trying to meet what is listed in the standard.


Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess it's a matter of semantics. When I say "improve the breed", I don't mean "change the standard", I mean "bring the dogs as close to standard as possible". All dogs have faults, but proper breeding will try to minimize them--that's where the "improvement" comes in. Maintaining strengths while diminishing weaknesses in your dogs. This improves your line, and by so doing, it is positive for the breed as a whole.


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## NancyJ

I have one of those severly dysplastic SAR dogs. I knew the litter was put together with solid hip history and half the litter was bad. Fortunately she is not suffering but she is not working either as I returned her on the spot.

That narrows the puppy risk I can take which is why I am at least looking for a puppy with prelims and some good idea of its basic temerament and drives. I have one 8 year old dysplastic. The 8 year old OFA good I bought as a 2 year old to replace her and room for one more. The dysplastic dog is living a fine life as an active pet.

I don't even expect a warranty on hips - I mean - once it happens you are attached to the dog and it is the rare person who will return it. I just want a breeder to do due diligence and try to prevent that among other things.


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## sagelfn

The OP is putting a lot of focus on hips...There are worse things to be concerned about..
Aggression (the good, the bad & the ugly) - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Health Issues - German Shepherd Dog Forums


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## germaknee

Freestep said:


> I like that some of Valkyrie's dogs have gone on to work in police and SAR.
> 
> I visited this kennel way back when, probably 15 years ago, when I was first looking for a pup. At the time, the kennel was not at the owner's home, but he had a caretaker living on the property. All the dogs looked well cared for and appeared to have good temperament.


I know I PM'd you but thought I should mention here also that Rebecca has been at the same place for over 20yrs. This is her home and she is the caretaker unless you count friends who come over to get a puppy fix when there is a litter on the ground.

Micky


----------



## germaknee

Tuff..you have received quite a bit of good advice from what I've read on this thread. You are trying to do your homework so keep going in the same direction. I've seen some comments about what a hefty price breeders are asking but you need to look at what they are paying to bring those litters into the world. 

Give the vet a call and find out what it costs for an ultrasound and all the other costs associated with a litter. Call some trainers and find out how much time & money they spend on training, trialing and showing their dogs. And that includes even knowing if they will x-ray out, have all of their teeth and anything else you want to make sure of before you even THINK about breeding. 

Once you know how much all of that costs then maybe..just maybe you'll see the majority of breeders who are doing this for the breed are doing it for love. There are some out there making money but they are not there for long. It is a living breathing animal and the ones doing it right will be there for advice for the life of your dog.

I looked for a dog at one point for 3 yrs. I didnt go to numerous breeders. I went to dog events, shows, trials and training to learn. I saw dogs & puppies I liked and I would ask the breeding. When I was ready for my next dog I knew which lines I wanted by that time. I was very happy the breeder was someone I liked the way they did their job. I then waited 1.5 yrs for the right chance at a youngster. This had nothing to do with a competition dog but to take my best chance at the best fit for the rest of this dog's life. Once it's mine it's mine for life.

Another option I would strongly suggest is rescue. There is a very good rescue in Northern California. Just search on German Shepherd Dog Rescue of Northern California. 
Just some more thoughts for you.
Micky


----------



## NancyJ

jocoyn said:


> I have one of those severly dysplastic SAR dogs. I knew the litter was put together with solid hip history and half the litter was bad. Fortunately she is not suffering but she is not working either as I returned her on the spot.
> 
> That narrows the puppy risk I can take which is why I am at least looking for a puppy with prelims and some good idea of its basic temerament and drives. I have one 8 year old dysplastic. The 8 year old OFA good I bought as a 2 year old to replace her and room for one more. The dysplastic dog is living a fine life as an active pet.
> 
> I don't even expect a warranty on hips - I mean - once it happens you are attached to the dog and it is the rare person who will return it. I just want a breeder to do due diligence and try to prevent that among other things.


OMG - Eeek when you get 3 hours of sleep the night before you say stupid things. I did NOT return my dysplastic dog, I retired her. She is sitting in the room with me now and is a beloved family pet. I am concerned about dysplasia more from the standpoint of a working dog subjected to serious stresses - yes - there are plenty of other issues in the breed to be concerned about.


----------



## selzer

LOL, I actually figured that out a moment ago when I saw you said "I have" present tense, it could not be that you returned her. 

I wouldn't have been fussed about you returning her either though. I mean, you were buying her to train for search and rescue, and that would not work out, keeping an extra dog, one that might have problems, but would still need training and socializing, etc. I could understand weighing all the options, returning the one dog -- it is a lot better reason than returning the pup because she doesn't fit in with your camping schedule this year. But after we raise them for just a little while, it is hard to let them go. If only someone would offer me $230,000 for one of my maniacs...


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## abakerrr

I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you really want to go with this whole 'dog' thing. Keep in mind that your purchase decision has absolutely no affect on my life, so at the end of the day, do what _you_ feel _you_ should to do with the information that's been provided. I'll do my part in paying it forward by passing along what I would consider to be good information, just as I have received in the past. 

I like to look at breeders as a game of odds. Odds are that by going with a reputable breeder, you'll have a better chance of obtaining what you want in your next family pet. They screen their dogs for health clearances, they back up their claims of talent and ability with titles or accomplishments, and typically possess a strong knowledge base on the temperament in that particular lineage. _Buying a good quality dog is by no mean a guarantee that the dog will turn out exactly how you planned_ (keep in mind that life is full of variability). I do think that when it comes down to it, you set yourself up with better odds when going to a reputable breeder than finding that easy puppy from the newspaper. Its a process, one that you will get out what you put in. If you want a family dog with sound health and a good temperament, don't cheat yourself out of getting exactly what you expect. Don't settle for less because it seems easier (maybe I should make this a life quote?). It takes a lot of time and effort to seek out and find the things you desire, but if you go above and beyond what most would put out, it will no doubt feel a whole lot more satisfactory in the end. 

*My story:*
I promised myself that my first german shepherd dog would -for sure- be from a proven and reputable breeder so that I could get all those great qualities I love about the breed in my new puppy. Three years ago, as I was getting ready to narrow down my puppys breeder, a 4 month old purebred German shepherd puppy fell into my lap at a local animal shelter (man, I won't even go there on how excited I was at the $ I saved in the adoption fee). Hey, she came with papers too  Now let me say, this dog has GOT to be one of the best looking gsds i've ever seen (for my tastes anyways) but holy crap has she turned out to be an emotional nightmare as an adult. I've got a psychology B.S., so naturally I take the nurture side of the debate. When I got my first GSD, I optimistically thought to myself that I could develop her into that idealistic, great, classic family dog that everyone envisions (you know, protective, stable, easy to socialize with, intelligent, obedient, etc etc).







Actually, no, shes nowhere close to being THAT dog. We did far more right than wrong with her, and with little to no improvement three years in, i'm now convinced she has this genetic hold of neurosis and weak nerves that going to be impossible to overcome. I've tried every fun socialization trick in the book and this dog still quivers and has a friggan nervous breakdown anytime shes even in the general vicinity of an obedience or socialization class. I tracked down her breeder a few months into owning her and again, great people with good intentions of breeding their nice looking dogs for family pets. Unfortunately in this instance, the result of their ignorance on good breeding practices was an *epic failure* in temperament. Shes very dog aggressive and reactive to any stranger she comes across. She is a total CLOWN with me and my close friends/ family, however is a major liability around anyone else. It doesn't make me feel good that my stupid dog lunged at a five year old for running past us on a walk last week. Guess whos got that nutbag living with her for the next 10+ years







. I'll be honest (everyone be nice), I often regret getting this dog. Don't get me wrong, I love her and shes a fantastic house pet. Shes apart of my family now and of course that won't ever change. Unfortunately, though, we got caught up in the moment, made an impulse acquire, and in the end, ended up with something we really didn't want.

Now, fast forward three years and I took another initiative towards finding _that_ dog I originally sought out. I had a list of things I wanted in a pup and took my time to research the breeders I felt could provide me with what I was looking for. Sure, I flip flopped back and forth between WHAT it was that I wanted, because I knew I didn't need the Ferrari of pedigree dogs (as everyone was insisting) but I also didn't want to settle for some crappy backyard bred dog again. I found a breeder, by chance, who really isn't one of those 'big names' but had great dogs and most importantly, a super solid knowledge base. He was able to effectively articulate WHY he did that particular breeding and WHAT he felt it would produce. He wasn't in it for a quick buck, but rather had a genuine vested interest in developing and enhancing the german shepherd breed as a whole. Never did he try to sell his dogs, but rather, his dogs sold me. (BIG difference, one that you can only experience to understand). I drove a 14 hour round trip and almost vomited when I handed over 1500$ in cash for a DOG.  Now that i've got her, I would have paid 15,000$ for her if I had to do it again. There's just no comparison between her and just about every other puppy i've ever come in contact with. Truthfully. Shes a _baby_ at this point and even still, she walks into every new situation like she owns the place (super solid nerve base). Gun shots, firecrackers, sirens, and large crowds; this dog has NO hesitation whatsoever. At this point, I can't even begin to emphasize just HOW important and influential genetics have been on the temperament outcome of my two contrasting dogs. The puppy's temperament is becoming everything I had ever hoped for and though I'm loving the puppy stage, I can't wait for her to grow older and see what she becomes as an adult.


----------



## tuffloud1

abakerrr said:


> I guess it depends on how far down the rabbit hole you really want to go with this whole 'dog' thing. Keep in mind that your purchase decision has absolutely no affect on my life, so at the end of the day, do what _you_ feel _you_ should to do with the information that's been provided. I'll do my part in paying it forward by passing along what I would consider to be good information, just as I have received in the past.
> 
> I like to look at breeders as a game of odds. Odds are that by going with a reputable breeder, you'll have a better chance of obtaining what you want in your next family pet. They screen their dogs for health clearances, they back up their claims of talent and ability with titles or accomplishments, and typically possess a strong knowledge base on the temperament in that particular lineage. _Buying a good quality dog is by no mean a guarantee that the dog will turn out exactly how you planned_ (keep in mind that life is full of variability). I do think that when it comes down to it, you set yourself up with better odds when going to a reputable breeder than finding that easy puppy from the newspaper. Its a process, one that you will get out what you put in. If you want a family dog with sound health and a good temperament, don't cheat yourself out of getting exactly what you expect. Don't settle for less because it seems easier (maybe I should make this a life quote?). It takes a lot of time and effort to seek out and find the things you desire, but if you go above and beyond what most would put out, it will no doubt feel a whole lot more satisfactory in the end.
> 
> *My story:*
> I promised myself that my first german shepherd dog would -for sure- be from a proven and reputable breeder so that I could get all those great qualities I love about the breed in my new puppy. Three years ago, as I was getting ready to narrow down my puppys breeder, a 4 month old purebred German shepherd puppy fell into my lap at a local animal shelter (man, I won't even go there on how excited I was at the $ I saved in the adoption fee). Hey, she came with papers too  Now let me say, this dog has GOT to be one of the best looking gsds i've ever seen (for my tastes anyways) but holy crap has she turned out to be an emotional nightmare as an adult. I've got a psychology B.S., so naturally I take the nurture side of the debate. When I got my first GSD, I optimistically thought to myself that I could develop her into that idealistic, great, classic family dog that everyone envisions (you know, protective, stable, easy to socialize with, intelligent, obedient, etc etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, shes nowhere close to being THAT dog. We did far more right than wrong with her, and with little to no improvement three years in, i'm now convinced she has this genetic hold of neurosis and weak nerves that going to be impossible to overcome. I've tried every fun socialization trick in the book and this dog still quivers and has a friggan nervous breakdown anytime shes even in the general vicinity of an obedience or socialization class. I tracked down her breeder a few months into owning her and again, great people with good intentions of breeding their nice looking dogs for family pets. Unfortunately in this instance, the result of their ignorance on good breeding practices was an *epic failure* in temperament. Shes very dog aggressive and reactive to any stranger she comes across. She is a total CLOWN with me and my close friends/ family, however is a major liability around anyone else. It doesn't make me feel good that my stupid dog lunged at a five year old for running past us on a walk last week. Guess whos got that nutbag living with her for the next 10+ years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'll be honest (everyone be nice), I often regret getting this dog. Don't get me wrong, I love her and shes a fantastic house pet. Shes apart of my family now and of course that won't ever change. Unfortunately, though, we got caught up in the moment, made an impulse acquire, and in the end, ended up with something we really didn't want.
> 
> Now, fast forward three years and I took another initiative towards finding _that_ dog I originally sought out. I had a list of things I wanted in a pup and took my time to research the breeders I felt could provide me with what I was looking for. Sure, I flip flopped back and forth between WHAT it was that I wanted, because I knew I didn't need the Ferrari of pedigree dogs (as everyone was insisting) but I also didn't want to settle for some crappy backyard bred dog again. I found a breeder, by chance, who really isn't one of those 'big names' but had great dogs and most importantly, a super solid knowledge base. He was able to effectively articulate WHY he did that particular breeding and WHAT he felt it would produce. He wasn't in it for a quick buck, but rather had a genuine vested interest in developing and enhancing the german shepherd breed as a whole. Never did he try to sell his dogs, but rather, his dogs sold me. (BIG difference, one that you can only experience to understand). I drove a 14 hour round trip and almost vomited when I handed over 1500$ in cash for a DOG.  Now that i've got her, I would have paid 15,000$ for her if I had to do it again. There's just no comparison between her and just about every other puppy i've ever come in contact with. Truthfully. Shes a _baby_ at this point and even still, she walks into every new situation like she owns the place (super solid nerve base). Gun shots, firecrackers, sirens, and large crowds; this dog has NO hesitation whatsoever. At this point, I can't even begin to emphasize just HOW important and influential genetics have been on the temperament outcome of my two contrasting dogs. The puppy's temperament is becoming everything I had ever hoped for and though I'm loving the puppy stage, I can't wait for her to grow older and see what she becomes as an adult.


Thank you very much for taking the time to share this. This helps me a great deal.:thumbup:


----------



## RubyTuesday

Abakerrr, that's an excellent post.

Many breeders considered to be byb are very much like the 2nd breeder you described & produce sound, stable, healthy, long lived, discerning GSD that make outstanding companions, therapy & service dogs. 

When seeking a dog it's essential to know exactly what you want & need. Consider breeders that consistently produce such dogs. Eliminate from consideration any that don't. A thorough knowledge of dogs, the breed itself & sound breeding is essential in a breed as plagued with numerous health & temperament problems as the GSD.


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## tuffloud1

Tell me what you think of this dog based soley on appearance.


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## Catu

Based soley on appareance... _Canis lupus familiaris_, 4 legs, a tail. The first is a male, the second has 2 eyes and 2 ears.


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## tuffloud1

Catu said:


> Based soley on appareance... _Canis lupus familiaris_, 4 legs, a tail. The first is a male, the second has 2 eyes and 2 ears.


They are the same dog. You can't tell me anything about his build in the first picture?


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## Lin

I think the response was because neither picture is suited to judge conformation. You need a properly stacked photo to critique.


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## vat

abakerrr story is so true. As I stated in my previous post I had the so called cheap dog who bite 2 of our friends. We were lucky on both counts. Just remember that you must live with this dog for the rest of its life! All of my dogs are pets but with dog number 1 I could not take her any where, when company came she had to be locked up. We had to live this way for 13 years! We chose her and we loved her so we would never dump her.

Fast forward the next 3 dogs (2 I have now) can go any where, meet anyone and I never worry. THAT is what a pet is, one you can share your live with and not lock up. I do not do SCH or any sport but I do work with my dogs and play and go places. You do not need a world class breeder just one that knows what they are doing and doing it to improve the breed. You do get what you pay for, if your already willing to spend $700 why not add a few hundred to that, it is soooooo worth it!

Not that this means much but I consider the lady behind me a BYB. She has 2 female bulldogs, shows them so they can be titled and worth more money (her words). She has now inseminated one of them and the girls are maybe 17 months old. She is a nice person but from what I see and hear from her she is in this for money not to improve the breed! Get my picture?


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## onyx'girl

> Tell me what you think of this dog based soley on appearance.


I'm picky about feet, I don't like the feet in the dog in the standing shot....tighter ones are nicer, IMO.


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## GSDElsa

Have you not learned anything from this thread?

You're still hunting for a bargain. Bargains don't exist in the dog world unless you happen to convince a reputable breeder to let you adopt one of the retiring dogs.

Really, if it's THAT hard to see yourself spending $1200+ on a dog...really, go for the adoption of an adult with proven health and temperment. I am not overly pro breeder or pro rescue. I do not and can not fathom why someone would rather go the route of the breeders you have listed above rather than a "sure thing." 

You've been given many examples of why these "bargain" BYB's are not a good idea. Stop going down that path. I could give you many more from fostering. IMO, there are two routes to do to get a great dog: puppy or adult from a REPUTABLE BREEDER or an adult rescue from a REPUTABLE RESCUE. Puppies are always a crapshoot. But you are stacking the odds soo much in your favor in health and temperment by getting one from a good (READ: ethical and knows what they are doing!) breeder. And adult rescue who has been in a foster home: you know what you are getting. You can do xrays. You can test the temperment in whatever circumstances you want. It's generally a sure thing.

But in this case...if you can't find yourself willing to pay the costs of buying from a reputable breeder, than you need to go the route of a reputable rescue. Don't put yourself through getting a dog from a BYB.


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## GSDElsa

The pictures above are really not easy to judge. Bad pigment isn't going to change no matter how he stands. Looks like he stands "east west." Back looks horribly roached--but could jsut be the picture. Muzzle is short and bulky. Flat footed.


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## LaRen616

GSDElsa said:


> Really, if it's THAT hard to see yourself spending $1200+ on a dog...really, go for the adoption of an adult with proven health and temperment.


:thumbup:




GSDElsa said:


> Puppies are always a crapshoot. But you are stacking the odds soo much in your favor in health and temperment by getting one from a good (READ: ethical and knows what they are doing!) breeder. And adult rescue who has been in a foster home: you know what you are getting. You can do xrays. You can test the temperment in whatever circumstances you want. It's generally a sure thing.


:thumbup:



GSDElsa said:


> But in this case...if you can't find yourself willing to pay the costs of buying from a reputable breeder, than you need to go the route of a reputable rescue. Don't put yourself through getting a dog from a BYB.


:thumbup:


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## Catu

Really, I wasn't thinking about if the dog was stacked or not, just because, being honest, conformation never crossed my mind. at the moment of choosing a dog, it is not something I look on a dog until I've seen things that are more important to me and those thing I can't see in a picture.

Conformation is important, but if you don't want to show, but an active pet to share happy moments in family, personally, conformation wouldn't be my first priority, not even second or third.


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## holland

I agree with that-although someday I want to show-so that doesn't make a lot of sense-Go meet the dog-temperment to me is the most important thing


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## tuffloud1

GSDElsa said:


> Have you not learned anything from this thread?
> 
> You're still hunting for a bargain. Bargains don't exist in the dog world unless you happen to convince a reputable breeder to let you adopt one of the retiring dogs.
> 
> Really, if it's THAT hard to see yourself spending $1200+ on a dog...really, go for the adoption of an adult with proven health and temperment. I am not overly pro breeder or pro rescue. I do not and can not fathom why someone would rather go the route of the breeders you have listed above rather than a "sure thing."
> 
> You've been given many examples of why these "bargain" BYB's are not a good idea. Stop going down that path. I could give you many more from fostering. IMO, there are two routes to do to get a great dog: puppy or adult from a REPUTABLE BREEDER or an adult rescue from a REPUTABLE RESCUE. Puppies are always a crapshoot. But you are stacking the odds soo much in your favor in health and temperment by getting one from a good (READ: ethical and knows what they are doing!) breeder. And adult rescue who has been in a foster home: you know what you are getting. You can do xrays. You can test the temperment in whatever circumstances you want. It's generally a sure thing.
> 
> But in this case...if you can't find yourself willing to pay the costs of buying from a reputable breeder, than you need to go the route of a reputable rescue. Don't put yourself through getting a dog from a BYB.


You have no idea why I even asked about those pictures. You simply just want to tell me I'm wrong. I never said anything about purchasing a puppy from whoever owns this dog.


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## selzer

I do not see a bad roach, but the slope seems steep for this dog. His stack is poor -- front legs not set straight, but I agree a stack will not help the washed out pigment. He is a young dog I think, he may just not have filled out yet, but this picture does not give him any depth in his chest. Could be weak pasterns and poor feet. Also I see little angulation in the front. 

The dog is definitely a purebred GSD, looks German Showline to me, I think he has a nice head, good ear set and size, eyes look good, muzzle short and dark. 

The picture only tells me why I would not want to breed to him from a conformation point of view. If his temperament is good, I think he would make a fine pet and you would probably have people stopping and admiring him.


----------



## tuffloud1

selzer said:


> I do not see a bad roach, but the slope seems steep for this dog. His stack is poor -- front legs not set straight, but I agree a stack will not help the washed out pigment. He is a young dog I think, he may just not have filled out yet, but this picture does not give him any depth in his chest. Could be weak pasterns and poor feet. Also I see little angulation in the front.
> 
> The dog is definitely a purebred GSD, looks German Showline to me, I think he has a nice head, good ear set and size, eyes look good, muzzle short and dark.
> 
> The picture only tells me why I would not want to breed to him from a conformation point of view. If his temperament is good, I think he would make a fine pet and you would probably have people stopping and admiring him.


Thank you, an actual answer to my question.


----------



## GSDElsa

tuffloud1 said:


> You have no idea why I even asked about those pictures. You simply just want to tell me I'm wrong. I never said anything about purchasing a puppy from whoever owns this dog.


Uhhhhhhhh. Do you not even know what you posted? That is the same dog that you said was the sire of the second BYB you asked about and seemed to think that you were getting a good deal from..........

Go read your own post 106. If you have learned anything at all from this thread, you wouldn't be considering them.

ETA: And just to clarify: YES, I do want to tell you you are wrong. Quite frankly, it gets quite disheartening seeing person after person supporting BYB after BYB all in the sake of saving a few bucks.


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## tuffloud1

GSDElsa said:


> Uhhhhhhhh. Do you not even know what you posted? That is the same dog that you said was the sire of the second BYB you asked about and seemed to think that you were getting a good deal from..........
> 
> Go read your own post 106. If you have learned anything at all from this thread, you wouldn't be considering them.
> 
> ETA: And just to clarify: YES, I do want to tell you you are wrong. Quite frankly, it gets quite disheartening seeing person after person supporting BYB after BYB all in the sake of saving a few bucks.


I know what I said, I'm not considering it. I am comparing and learning about the structure of the dog.

I am visiting kennels and learning.

I asked the opinion on a picture, that's it. I'm not a naive moron, so you can stop with your condescending tone.


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## NancyJ

Ok look - it is obvious the picture is a sideways shot of the same dog - same fence, same gravel - posted together; if is is not you should clarify. And that bottom dog was to be the father of the next litter.

Maybe some are being a bit condescending but you ask for advice you get advice. Take what you want and throw away the rest and don't take it personally. I think many of us dog folks are sometimes lacking in social graces - plus it is the internet. 

I would rather someone care enough to hit me over the head with a 2 by 4 if I was about to make a 14 year mistake than be simply polite and not say at all. 

Many of us are working line folks and do not "appreciate" the showline structure and that will also color our own perceptions. 

Have you been to LInda Shaw's site? That is very good on structure and color-This reference is an excellent study for such things.
The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog

And then this should be required reading IMO for GSD owners
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.pdf


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## abakerrr

Thought I would chime in. Though I have no personal experience with this breeder, I have heard good things about them in the past and thought I might pass the word along. I believe they are just outside of Palo Alto, CA. If they don't have what you're looking for, it might not hurt ask for their help to point you in the right direction. 

Witmer-Tyson Imports - German Shepherds, Law Enforcement Training, and Equipment

Good luck!


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## Freestep

tuffloud1 said:


> I know what I said, I'm not considering it. I am comparing and learning about the structure of the dog.
> 
> I am visiting kennels and learning.


Keep visiting and keep learning! Don't take it personally when people get upset about you looking at BYB's. It's a "hot button" for a lot of people, and we don't want to see you supporting a BYB and getting an unsound dog. We're really looking out for your best interest as well as the dogs'.

When I was first looking at GSDs many years ago, I visited all types of kennels. Show kennels, working kennels, American, German, BYB's, etc. The only way you learn is to go and see it for yourself, and compare, and then you will be able to figure out the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder.

Many years ago I bought a pup from what you might call a BYB. The breeder did get OFA's on her dogs, and did do her research on bloodlines, etc. before breeding. The male was oversize, but otherwise the dogs had decent conformation and good temperament. The breeder was also an obedience instructor and had put AKC obedience titles on her dogs.

The pup I got was a good companion, had good hips, and a solid temperament, but was a washout in SchH. It didn't really matter to me; she was a great dog and I loved her. She developed cancer at age 4 and had to be euthanized. Broke my heart.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Freestep said:


> Many years ago I bought a pup from what you might call a BYB. The breeder did get OFA's on her dogs, and did do her research on bloodlines, etc. before breeding. The male was oversize, but otherwise the dogs had decent conformation and good temperament. The breeder was also an obedience instructor and had put AKC obedience titles on her dogs.
> 
> The pup I got was a good companion, had good hips, and a solid temperament, but was a washout in SchH. It didn't really matter to me; she was a great dog and I loved her. She developed cancer at age 4 and had to be euthanized. Broke my heart.


I wouldn't necessarily call that a BYB. Maybe not the most experienced breeder in terms of placing the right pups in the right homes, but I wouldn't call what you described as a BYB.

You just didn't have the right puppy for what you were looking to do with the dog.


----------



## selzer

Yes it is disheartening. Not everyone feels they can spend $1000 and up for a dog. Not everyone who sells dogs for $1000 and up would sell to just anyone. 

"Go for a rescue" is the chant. People have heard such bad stories about people who got their dogs from pounds or rescues, that some simply do not want to go that route. Others have heard such horrible stories about getting approved by a rescue, that they do not even want to try. Many do not think they can get a puppy from a rescue, and they would feel more comfortable with a dog that they raise with their children. And some rescues have some criteria that might turn down perfectly good homes, and some people know they will not pass the criteria for good reason. 

Less than stellar breeders who sell cheap dogs, do not cover all the bases, and ask fewer questions will sell to these people. 

It is a problem I do not have a solution for. It is not breeders fault for selling pups for what they are worth. It is not the rescues fault for wanting to place dogs in forever homes. 

My plea to the people insisting on buying from questionable breeders is to at least see how the dam and if possible the sire are housed, and what their temperaments are. If they have good temperaments, the pups will probably make ok pets. If they have problems down the line, well all dogs have problems down the line, I just hope the people who cannot afford the puppy can afford insurance or will put money in savings or keep a cc open to cover emergencies. 

These people are not really impacting the hard core show-line people or the hard core working line people. I would think that they are more likely to effect the numbers needing to be rescued, but have no statistics on that. 

It just amazes me that the vast majority who cannot possibly pay 1200-1500 dollars for a dog, have no problem forking over $50/month for cable tv, $50/carton for smokes, $50 for dinner out for two, $2000 for a trip to disneyland that will be over and done with in 3-7 days, with nothing to show for it, but a roll of film. Do people even know what a roll of film is anymore???


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## NancyJ

And the reality is - Showline Dogs are priced higher. Not sure why but they are.


----------



## Freestep

selzer said:


> It just amazes me that the vast majority who cannot possibly pay 1200-1500 dollars for a dog, have no problem forking over $50/month for cable tv, $50/carton for smokes, $50 for dinner out for two, $2000 for a trip to disneyland that will be over and done with in 3-7 days, with nothing to show for it, but a roll of film. Do people even know what a roll of film is anymore???


Not saying the OP is in this category, but it's true--people will find a way to afford what is important to them. Many people will choke at the idea of spending thousands of dollars on a mere DOG, but when it's important to you, and you take it very seriously, you simply make it happen.

And yes, I know what a roll of film is! I was very happy when I made the move to all-digital, all those rolls of film are cumbersome and take up an awful lot of space.


----------



## GSDElsa

tuffloud1 said:


> I know what I said, I'm not considering it. I am comparing and learning about the structure of the dog.
> 
> I am visiting kennels and learning.
> 
> I asked the opinion on a picture, that's it. I'm not a naive moron, so you can stop with your condescending tone.


You not only asked an opinion of a picture you asked an opinion of a breeding that included The dog in the photo as the sire. You even went so far as to say that you thought 700 was a good deal for the dog. Certainly your posts went on for quite awhile giving every indication you were indeed considering a dog from that litter. Maybe you aren't a naive moron but you are definitely talking out both sides of your mouth. 

Just because I'm telling you things you don't want to hear doesn't mean I'm not right.

And don't worry I can be a lot more condensing than you think I'm being.


----------



## NancyJ

I just spent $1200 on knocked out teeth when my dog hit a tree

Another dog got an $1100 root canal and she has a growth on her leg I need to get checked on

Another dog cost me about $2000 worth of work on perianal fistulas

My daughter's dog cost about $2500 due to brain damage from a head concussion

This is all on top of normal veterinary, food, and other costs.

When you add it all up the purchase price is pretty inconsequential.


----------



## Freestep

Lucy Dog said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call that a BYB. Maybe not the most experienced breeder in terms of placing the right pups in the right homes, but I wouldn't call what you described as a BYB.


At the time, I didn't consider it a BYB either. But others might. I was still learning, and didn't know bloodlines very well--if I had, I would probably have gone with a different breeder.


----------



## tuffloud1

GSDElsa said:


> You not only asked an opinion of a picture you asked an opinion of a breeding that included The dog in the photo as the sire. You even went so far as to say that you thought 700 was a good deal for the dog. Certainly your posts went on for quite awhile giving every indication you were indeed considering a dog from that litter. Maybe you aren't a naive moron but you are definitely talking out both sides of your mouth.
> 
> Just because I'm telling you things you don't want to hear doesn't mean I'm not right.
> 
> And don't worry I can be a lot more condensing than you think I'm being.


I am learning daily. I don't speak out of both sides of my mouth. 

The other day, I was considering it. Now I'm not. I don't want your advice anymore because you are so disrespectful.

Please go away.


----------



## Freestep

GSDElsa said:


> You not only asked an opinion of a picture you asked an opinion of a breeding that included The dog in the photo as the sire. You even went so far as to say that you thought 700 was a good deal for the dog. Certainly your posts went on for quite awhile giving every indication you were indeed considering a dog from that litter. Maybe you aren't a naive moron but you are definitely talking out both sides of your mouth.
> 
> Just because I'm telling you things you don't want to hear doesn't mean I'm not right.
> 
> And don't worry I can be a lot more condensing than you think I'm being.


I think the OP is trying to do the right thing, visiting many different kennels and looking at many different dogs. Coming here for help and advice in this quest is a positive thing--I'd hate to see OP feel alienated or discouraged from that.


----------



## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> I think the OP is trying to do the right thing, visiting many different kennels and looking at many different dogs. Coming here for help and advice in this quest is a positive thing--I'd hate to see OP feel alienated or discouraged from that.


Thank you, you are one of the people who is actualy helping me without assuming everyone who is new to this is going to do the wrong thing.

I am here aren't I? If I didn't care and didn't research things, why would I come on here and spend so much time asking a million questions?

Every project I do, every thing that I have ever owned, I research a great deal. I've been this way since I was a child, very meticulous.

I guess it's the German in me. (I'm almost full German, Dad is from Berlin)


----------



## selzer

People who are crazy into dogs -- people on this site, breeders, fanciers, show people, schutzhund people, people who work their dogs in various fields -- they approach buying a dog very different than your average pet-person. They know what a dog, the type and quality they are looking for costs, and they know how to distinguish between decent breeders, and the others. 

Everyone who finds sites like this one comes to it at a different mindset. But they ALL can become just as crazy about everything GSD as the rest of us, if they do not run screaming first. For some people, you can tell them that the sky is purple and they will accept that right away. Other people will just think you are nuts and move on. Other people will listen to your reasons and then take a few days or weeks to accept that yes it can be considered purple. 

People who spend a lifetime getting dogs from people with free-puppies signs or from the pound, may take a little persuading to understand and adopt the reasons for not buying from breeders who fall into various categories depending on what they do or do not do with their dogs. 

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!!!


----------



## GSDElsa

tuffloud1 said:


> I guess it's the German in me. (I'm almost full German, Dad is from Berlin)


Apparently not German enough if you can't appreciate a no-nonsense, blunt, and to the point post that is lacking all the warm and fuzzies :rofl:



selzer said:


> The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves!!!


Where is the Iron Fist icon?


----------



## tuffloud1

GSDElsa said:


> Apparently not German enough if you can't appreciate a no-nonsense, blunt, and to the point post that is lacking all the warm and fuzzies :rofl:


I appreciate a no-nonsense to the point post. 

However you are just plain rude and disrespectful. There is a difference between being blunt, but helpful and just being condescending.

I'd like to get back on track here so again, please go away.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

tuffloud1 said:


> I appreciate a no-nonsense to the point post.
> 
> However you are just plain rude and disrespectful. There is a difference between being blunt, but helpful and just being condescending.
> 
> I'd like to get back on track here so again, please go away.


You can't just tell someone to "go away". This is a public forum, she can post if she wants. I don't see her as being condescending. She is being blunt. Don't like it, don't read it.


----------



## GSDElsa

tuffloud1 said:


> I appreciate a no-nonsense to the point post.
> 
> However you are just plain rude and disrespectful. There is a difference between being blunt, but helpful and just being condescending.
> 
> I'd like to get back on track here so again, please go away.


This isn't midschool. Telling me to go away isn't going to ge me to trot off with my tail between my legs. 

My first post may not have been what you wanted to hear, but hardly condescending. Actually full of sage advice. My second...perhaps...after you dished your own giant pile of rudeness and denying considering purchasing a dog from him.

Condescending would have been telling you if you aren't willing to spend $1200 on a dog you don't deserve one at all. I gave you a very viable option that would meet the price requirements you want without supporting a bad breeder. I'm heavily involved in rescue. If I thought you were going to be a horrible dog owner I hardly would suggest one of my precious rescues.


----------



## tuffloud1

Jessiewessie99 said:


> You can't just tell someone to "go away". This is a public forum, she can post if she wants. I don't see her as being condescending. She is being blunt. Don't like it, don't read it.


Sure I can. GO AWAY.

And yes, she is being condesending by telling me "uhhhhhh.......do you even know what you posted?". 

And "don't worry I can be a lot more condensing than you think I'm being."

So she admittedly said she could be MORE condescending.

Why post on a thread when the person who started the thread doesn't want a rude, disrespectful person's opinion and expresses is that? I guess have at it, keep coming back and telling me I'm somehow wrong and I will ignore you.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

tuffloud1 said:


> Sure I can. GO AWAY.
> 
> And yes, she is being condesending by telling me "uhhhhhh.......do you even know what you posted?".
> 
> And "don't worry I can be a lot more condensing than you think I'm being."
> 
> So she admittedly said she could be MORE condescending.
> 
> Why post on a thread when the person who started the thread doesn't want a rude, disrespectful person's opinion and expresses is that? I guess have at it, keep coming back and telling me I'm somehow wrong and I will ignore you.


Um no.

Exactly! If you don't like what she has posted put her on ignore.

I for one think Justine is very knowledgeable in her posts and like reading her input on things. But thats me.


----------



## Catu

Hey kids! everyone to their corner. Time out!


----------



## selzer

Tuffloud1, 

You can ignore the individual you think is rude. 

It is a feature. 

If you go to the left and click on their user name, it will bring down a menu. 

If you go to View Public Profile, it will take you to their profile

If you click on user lists, the drop down menu has the option Add To Ignore List.

You really cannot force someone off of your cloud here, but you can ignore them. 

I think GSDElsa has a lot of good information, but as she said, she is into rescue, and she seems to think you will pick a bad breeder, which rewards these people to continue breeding.

And then she and other rescues end up cleaning up the messes they make.


----------



## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> I think GSDElsa has a lot of good information, but as she said, she is into rescue, and she seems to think you will pick a bad breeder, which rewards these people to continue breeding.
> 
> And then she and other rescues end up cleaning up the messes they make.


Now Sue. Let's not put words into my mouth. I SPECIFICALLY said if you are not willing and/or able to pay the $$ that REPUTABLE BREEDERS ask to (generally) break even on their expenses, then you should go the route of a REPUTABLE RESCUE before you go buy a dog from a BYB. 

I never said anything about "thinking" this person is going to buy a dog from a BYB. But after *ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY* (or so) posts, this person was STILL looking at BYB's and was STILL having a hard time wrapping their head around spending $1200 on a dog.

What is perhaps the most condescending and rude thing thing in this thread is the fact the some people appear to think it's condescending and rude to suggest a rescue as a "happy medium" to getting an amazing yet affordable dog and supporting a BYB.

Makes my head spin :crazy:

I am pro-reputable breeder and pro-reputable rescue. Please, Sue, don't make this a rescue vs. breeder issue. Reputable breeders do have to charge a certain amount to recoup their costs. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to spend that amount on a dog. But don't think there is any deal for anyone involved by getting away only spending $700 at a BYB.


----------



## GSDElsa

tuffloud1 said:


> Why post on a thread when the person who started the thread doesn't want a rude, disrespectful person's opinion and expresses is that? I guess have at it, keep coming back and telling me I'm somehow wrong and I will ignore you.


Because it's a public internet forum and it's not all about you. Thanks to that nifty search feature this thread can be viewed by thousands upon thousands of people doing their own research. So, whether or not YOU want my opinion or not I'll still give it.


----------



## tuffloud1

selzer said:


> Tuffloud1,
> 
> You can ignore the individual you think is rude.
> 
> It is a feature.
> 
> If you go to the left and click on their user name, it will bring down a menu.
> 
> If you go to View Public Profile, it will take you to their profile
> 
> If you click on user lists, the drop down menu has the option Add To Ignore List.
> 
> You really cannot force someone off of your cloud here, but you can ignore them.
> 
> I think GSDElsa has a lot of good information, but as she said, she is into rescue, and she seems to think you will pick a bad breeder, which rewards these people to continue breeding.
> 
> And then she and other rescues end up cleaning up the messes they make.


And this is what bothers me. I'm just a guy who came onto this site looking for guidance.

I appreciate it when people are to the point. 

What I don't appreciate is the attitude. Treating me like I'm some big bad BYB supporter who is out to ruin the German Shepherd dog breed and support bad things. Like I'm some criminal of the dog world.

I hate it when people make assumptions about people who are really just trying to learn. It's frustrating and annoying.

I have a family, a wife, a 2 year old and 6 year old daughter. I want a nice family dog to enjoy and for my girls to grow up with.

I am doing my best to study up and study the reputable breeders and the ones just starting out, comparing documentation on titles etc, and weighing out the differences.

I don't want to just write off being able to find a nice family dog for $1000, just because it's $1000 and not $2000. This is just not logical to me. This doesn't mean settling for a dog that's "cheap". 

If I can't find a dog that meets enough criteria to justify purchasing for $1000, I will end up upping the amount I'm willing to spend until I can justify it.

And from shopping around, I see many so called reputable breeders with websites set up are nothing more than a regular household, breeding dogs in their garage and have a couple kennels out in their backyard. They import their dogs from Germany and have all documentation on Title, OFA, temperment, a couple pictures of them showing their dogs at dog shows. They slap their kennel name on their pupps Soandso vom soandso and claim they are an establishment. It just seems like anyone could do this and claim to be more than a back yard breeder. But really, are they more? I realize that some people are way more experienced than others, however breeding dogs doesn't appear to be an exact science. I'm sure that going with someone who is $1000 more may buy a better structured, colored dog for showing. However, I'm not in this to show a dog. I do want a nice family companion that will hopefully be free of major issues. This is kind of stressful.


----------



## Freestep

GSDElsa said:


> I never said anything about "thinking" this person is going to buy a dog from a BYB. But after *ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY* (or so) posts, this person was STILL looking at BYB's and was STILL having a hard time wrapping their head around spending $1200 on a dog.


You don't know what's going through OP's head. It's my understanding that OP is new to the breed and trying to figure out what is a BYB and what is not. And asking for our help in doing so.

You can't always judge a book by the price on its cover--there are some BYBs that charge the same as, and appear to be, a reputable breeder. And I'm sure there are some reputable breeders that charge less than others(especially if you're looking at working lines). 

To the average person, it can be hard to tell the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder.


----------



## Lin

Ok, I just wanted to say something about the subject of telling a poster to go away... 

This is a very big forum. LOTS of members posting. Even more members that don't or rarely post. And even more people that read the forum without ever registering. Many of us keep this fact in our mind when we are commenting in threads. We aren't just speaking to the person who started the thread, but everyone who might be reading it or might find it later with the search function. 

You're new here, so you might not realize that. I don't mean this in a condescending way, just matter of fact. So unfortunately you're going to get advice here on things you don't ask or don't agree with if its relevant to the topic. Because its not just about you. So, please don't take it personally. If someone is REALLY bothering you, do as Selzer suggested and put them on ignore.


----------



## tuffloud1

Lin said:


> Ok, I just wanted to say something about the subject of telling a poster to go away...
> 
> This is a very big forum. LOTS of members posting. Even more members that don't or rarely post. And even more people that read the forum without ever registering. Many of us keep this fact in our mind when we are commenting in threads. We aren't just speaking to the person who started the thread, but everyone who might be reading it or might find it later with the search function.
> 
> You're new here, so you might not realize that. I don't mean this in a condescending way, just matter of fact. So unfortunately you're going to get advice here on things you don't ask or don't agree with if its relevant to the topic. Because its not just about you. So, please don't take it personally. If someone is REALLY bothering you, do as Selzer suggested and put them on ignore.


I get it. It's all good.


----------



## GSDElsa

What I don't appreciate is the attitude. Treating me like I'm some big bad BYB supporter who is out to ruin the German Shepherd dog breed and support bad things. Like I'm some criminal of the dog world.
-*Although it partially has to do with the breed as a whole, it has more to do with you getting a dog that IS going to be good for your family. Bad breeding with no knowledge more often than not creates nervebags who have to be carefully managed lest you end up with a giant lawsuit because your fearful, neurotic dog bit your 7 year old's friend.*

I don't want to just write off being able to find a nice family dog for $1000, just because it's $1000 and not $2000. This is just not logical to me. This doesn't mean settling for a dog that's "cheap". 
*- It has little to do with being "cheap." It has to do with the cost it takes to do business. You will be hard pressed to find a single GSD from a reputable breeder under $1200 at the least. Because it costs a lot of money to title your dogs, care for them properly, and do all those health test. As others have said a few times...with rare exceptions, most working lines are considerably cheaper than showlines. And I also happen to disagree with the people who say they are "high octane" dogs. Almost every litter is going to have "pet quality" puppies in them. *

And from shopping around, I see many so called reputable breeders with websites set up are nothing more than a regular household, breeding dogs in their garage and have a couple kennels out in their backyard. They import their dogs from Germany and have all documentation on Title, OFA, temperment, a couple pictures of them showing their dogs at dog shows. They slap their kennel name on their pupps Soandso vom soandso and claim they are an establishment. It just seems like anyone could do this and claim to be more than a back yard breeder. But really, are they more? I realize that some people are way more experienced than others, however breeding dogs doesn't appear to be an exact science. I'm sure that going with someone who is $1000 more may buy a better structured, colored dog for showing. However, I'm not in this to show a dog. I do want a nice family companion that will hopefully be free of major issues. This is kind of stressful
*-Nothing you described above meets my criteria for a reputable breeder. And most people would agree with that. I personally will not look at a breeder who does not train and title their own dogs. A rare exception for me would be someone who did it for 30 years and has either turned the reins over to a younger person learning the ropes or someone who has a physical limitation (one example I can think of is a friend of mine who can no longer work her dog in protection because of some very serious knee problems...something like that). Reputable breeders are bringing dogs up themselves. They are keeping dogs back from their litters to train and evaluate themselves. They are NOT buying all their dogs from Germany with titles already on them. Hang around with good GSD's long enough and you will learn that to a certain extent it is an exact science. Of course with an error rate because even the best science has one. Consistently producing great working dogs with strong nerves and level heads is not a coincidence.*


----------



## selzer

It IS stressfull. Maybe it should be. 

You are making a purchase that you hope will be fore 12 or more years. It is a big deal. 

Somewhere you have to find the medium between idealism and realism. Ideally you would choose a breeder by the temperament, proven abilities, and characteristics of their dogs, and the availability, knowledge, and dedication of the breeder. It is not really about how many things each dog has or has achieved, but the trust you have in the breeder. If you find all of that and find that this breeders pups are 3k to 8k, ideally, that would not matter, you would buy the best match for your family.

At some point you have to also be realistic. Not everyone can or should spend 3K on a dog. And if you find the perfect breeder, they may not view you as the perfect buyer. They may not sell to you. They may want all of their dogs to go to homes where the owners WILL train and title them. They may want their dog to go to a home that will show them. 

I think you have to make some lists. What I want in a dog, What I need in a dog. What I want in a breeder, What I require of the breeder, breeder's dogs. What is the best lines for me and my family. 

Once you know exactly what you want, and what you are not willing to compramise on, then you can find the breeders that fit that bill. Then you can look a little closer at each and somewhere in there hopefully find the right dog from the right breeder for the right price. 

I envy you, you have the opportunity to do this prior to buying your first dog. Some of us had no clue when we bought our first dog. Kind of the difference between learning to swim first and just jumping off the deep end.


----------



## holland

So, like whats it like to always be right? If you ever fall off that high horse sure do hope you don't get hurt


----------



## onyx'girl

I know you want showlines...they tend to be more expensive(I have no clue as to why!)
Working lines can run about 1000-1500 and you can get a great companion in the WL. They do have an off switch contrary to many opinions and going with a good responsible breeder will get you a great pup for about 1200. That is reasonable, because you will have spent more time saving, therefore more time researching. Even some SL breeders may have pups for the 1200 range, but I would really research what they are breeding, and that they know what they are doing. 
I paid 1200 for my pup, and he is the best of my three, stable, good health and a biddable dog that is super easy to train and live with. He is an _ugly_ working line however


----------



## Alyalanna

Freestep said:


> To the average person, it can be hard to tell the difference between a BYB and a reputable breeder.


This is why I am enjoying this thread. I am still years away (*crosses fingers*) from actually being ready to buy a GSD but I, like the OP, am interested in doing TONS of research before I spend the money. I bought my yellow lab from a byb for $75, 10 years ago, and except for her having allergies she hasn't had any major health problems. And I while the cheap part of me wonders if I can pull off that miracle again, the more practical side of me says that I should consider all the options. These options include rescue (though I want a puppy or a dog less than a year, which is still really a puppy) or finding a breeder. But while I would like to find a breeder that sells puppies that I consider "reasonably" priced, I don't know what to look for in difference, besides the obvious OFA check, between a byb and a reputable breeder. Part of this is because the internet now allows byb to have websites that make them look reputable. 

So I am asking everyone, to consider those of us that haven't bought a puppy in a long time and patiently answer questions that may seem stupid to those of you that have done this more often. Also consider that the OP is still on this thread an asking questions instead of disregarding the advice you gave a week (?) ago and buying the first byb puppy that they could find. 

Plus, I think the OP is just trying to get all his facts straight by asking these questions and by answering them now, hopefully, you won't have to answer them again for me in a few years.


----------



## Alyalanna

onyx'girl said:


> He is an _ugly_ working line however


Please. Your dog... ugly??? What does a beautiful dog look like then?


----------



## onyx'girl

Alyalanna said:


> Please. Your dog... ugly??? What does a beautiful dog look like then?


Thank you, I do love my sable, and my bi-color and my long coat....

Black and red=beautiful in many eyes. I don't have a black and red


----------



## Alyalanna

onyx'girl said:


> Thank you, I do love my sable, and my bi-color and my long coat....
> 
> Black and red=beautiful in many eyes. I don't have a black and red


The black and red are beautiful but I think I like the sable more. But then again the bi-colors are pretty too. Of course the long hairs are also my favorite with the only down side of having longer hair all over the carpet.  Yup, you can tell that color is definitely a priority in a puppy/dog for me!


----------



## Freestep

onyx'girl said:


> I know you want showlines...they tend to be more expensive(I have no clue as to why!)
> Working lines can run about 1000-1500 and you can get a great companion in the WL. They do have an off switch contrary to many opinions and going with a good responsible breeder will get you a great pup for about 1200.


Yup. Both my dogs are WL and they are balanced, biddable, AND know how to relax. Part of that, I think, is their living situation--they are my housedogs, my companions, and aren't expected to win at the highest levels of competition. As such, I don't need to do a lot of drive-building--on the contrary, the most important thing to me is that they learn how to relax and watch a movie with me, that they can go anywhere with me, and they get along with everyone. 

Having said that, they've got plenty of energy, and my 10 year old would still chase a ball until she drops. They're not necessarily beginner's dogs, but with competent leadership, exercise, and training, they're the best dogs you can ever have, IMO.


----------



## onyx'girl

A red dark/black sable long coat then would fill the bill? :wub: I see so many gorgeous GSD's it is really hard to not love them all....what if they all looked like a breed that has only one cookie cutter 'look'? How boring would that be?
Agree freestep, two of mine are dropping cuz's at my feet while I'm out on the deck...I toss the ball over the roof and type...


----------



## GSDElsa

I just went back to another thread where we were talking about the prettiness of working lines (or lack thereof according to some people). This is the dog that I meant to post (Medo's daddy--not that I'm biased or anything!).

Seriously, how can anyone think THIS isn't one of the most beautiful looking GSD on the planet? I heart me the sables!
SG (JKL) Ickx von Haus - Klönne - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## selzer

GSDElsa said:


> What I don't appreciate is the attitude. Treating me like I'm some big bad BYB supporter who is out to ruin the German Shepherd dog breed and support bad things. Like I'm some criminal of the dog world.
> -*Although it partially has to do with the breed as a whole, it has more to do with you getting a dog that IS going to be good for your family. Bad breeding with no knowledge more often than not creates nervebags who have to be carefully managed lest you end up with a giant lawsuit because your fearful, neurotic dog bit your 7 year old's friend.*
> 
> I don't want to just write off being able to find a nice family dog for $1000, just because it's $1000 and not $2000. This is just not logical to me. This doesn't mean settling for a dog that's "cheap".
> *- It has little to do with being "cheap." It has to do with the cost it takes to do business. You will be hard pressed to find a single GSD from a reputable breeder under $1200 at the least. Because it costs a lot of money to title your dogs, care for them properly, and do all those health test. As others have said a few times...with rare exceptions, most working lines are considerably cheaper than showlines. And I also happen to disagree with the people who say they are "high octane" dogs. Almost every litter is going to have "pet quality" puppies in them. *
> 
> And from shopping around, I see many so called reputable breeders with websites set up are nothing more than a regular household, breeding dogs in their garage and have a couple kennels out in their backyard. They import their dogs from Germany and have all documentation on Title, OFA, temperment, a couple pictures of them showing their dogs at dog shows. They slap their kennel name on their pupps Soandso vom soandso and claim they are an establishment. It just seems like anyone could do this and claim to be more than a back yard breeder. But really, are they more? I realize that some people are way more experienced than others, however breeding dogs doesn't appear to be an exact science. I'm sure that going with someone who is $1000 more may buy a better structured, colored dog for showing. However, I'm not in this to show a dog. I do want a nice family companion that will hopefully be free of major issues. This is kind of stressful
> *-Nothing you described above meets my criteria for a reputable breeder. And most people would agree with that. I personally will not look at a breeder who does not train and title their own dogs. A rare exception for me would be someone who did it for 30 years and has either turned the reins over to a younger person learning the ropes or someone who has a physical limitation (one example I can think of is a friend of mine who can no longer work her dog in protection because of some very serious knee problems...something like that). Reputable breeders are bringing dogs up themselves. They are keeping dogs back from their litters to train and evaluate themselves. They are NOT buying all their dogs from Germany with titles already on them. Hang around with good GSD's long enough and you will learn that to a certain extent it is an exact science. Of course with an error rate because even the best science has one. Consistently producing great working dogs with strong nerves and level heads is not a coincidence.*


Yes, and no. I think that sometimes they buy puppies and raise them up. Sometimes they keep their own and raise them up. Sometimes they buy adults. Adults that will augment their lines. I imported a titled bitch, who had had a litter, who has an awesome pedigree, who has hips and elbows done, who has a show rating and koer. 

No way do I have the money, cannot beg, borrow, or steal enough to import a puppy from top lines that might wash out due to hips/elbows, temperament, serious fault that I do not want to breed, or simply a bitch that does not produce, like my Heidi. We talk about stacking the deck, well sometimes breeders need to stack the deck too. No, there is NO guarantee that I will ever have another puppy from this bitch, I may never be able to pay off the loan I took on her from the puppies she produces. But with a puppy, there are so many chances that they will wash, that it just makes sense to buy a proven bitch.

If you are buying a dog that you have not seen, other than a photo, you have no clue what the temperament is, then buying a dog that has a koer done and that has titles is helpful. 

So immediately discounting a breeder who does not title all their dogs themselves, might seriously limit someone unnecessarily. 

********************************************************************************************

Good breeders take their dogs back, so the chances are much slimmer for their dogs to be available in rescues. So the chances are good that whatever rescue dog this man finds MAY have come from the same type of breeder that you are warning the fellow off of. How does that work?

In a previous post you mentioned rescues being proved healthy, are they doing hip and elbow x-rays now? 

I do not want to make this breeder vs. rescue, but there are some inconsistencies in your posts. 

*************************************************************************************

Be that as it may be. You may be tired of people over and over and over supporting BYBs -- whatever those are defined as this week. But you should not take all of that frustration out on this individual poster. Why not try to give him the benefit of the doubt, believe that he does indeed WANT to do the right thing.


----------



## Freestep

Personally, I like the look of working lines best...especially those dark black sables! I really like bicolors, too.

The typical black & red showline dog looks boring to me... so cookie-cutter... and I don't really care for roach backs.


----------



## selzer

GSDElsa said:


> I just went back to another thread where we were talking about the prettiness of working lines (or lack thereof according to some people). This is the dog that I meant to post (Medo's daddy--not that I'm biased or anything!).
> 
> Seriously, how can anyone think THIS isn't one of the most beautiful looking GSD on the planet? I heart me the sables!
> SG (JKL) Ickx von Haus - Klönne - German Shepherd Dog


Uhm, uh, yeah, well, he isn't my type. 

Sorry.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Justine, he is stunning, he'd look really good in my backyard with Masi)

Alyalanna>if you like the 'looks' of the working lines, there's a couple breeders I'd check out in WA,,schraderhaus (My masi's mom is there) and Von banach..both have dogs that I would never turn away from my door

I think we all have color/type preferences , I have had black/red-black/tan-bicolor-now a dark sable...I honestly thought I'd never own a sable color, at one point the 'color' just did not appeal to me,,but I went with "brains" this time and must say I am always drawn to a dark dog anyhow,,the sables have definately grown on me,,and I'll say it, I want a black or bicolor boy for my next one but it has to have brains to


----------



## holland

LOL selzer you crack me up


----------



## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> Yes, and no. I think that sometimes they buy puppies and raise them up. Sometimes they keep their own and raise them up. Sometimes they buy adults. Adults that will augment their lines. I imported a titled bitch, who had had a litter, who has an awesome pedigree, who has hips and elbows done, who has a show rating and koer.
> 
> No way do I have the money, cannot beg, borrow, or steal enough to import a puppy from top lines that might wash out due to hips/elbows, temperament, serious fault that I do not want to breed, or simply a bitch that does not produce, like my Heidi. We talk about stacking the deck, well sometimes breeders need to stack the deck too. No, there is NO guarantee that I will ever have another puppy from this bitch, I may never be able to pay off the loan I took on her from the puppies she produces. But with a puppy, there are so many chances that they will wash, that it just makes sense to buy a proven bitch.
> 
> So immediately discounting a breeder who does not title all their dogs themselves, might seriously limit someone unnecessarily.
> 
> ********************************************************************************************
> 
> Good breeders take their dogs back, so the chances are much slimmer for their dogs to be available in rescues. So the chances are good that whatever rescue dog this man finds MAY have come from the same type of breeder that you are warning the fellow off of. How does that work?
> 
> In a previous post you mentioned rescues being proved healthy, are they doing hip and elbow x-rays now?
> 
> I do not want to make this breeder vs. rescue, but there are some inconsistencies in your posts.
> 
> *************************************************************************************
> QUOTE]
> 
> There is a difference between here and there buying a dog or importing a titled dog to add into your breeding program strenghen bloodlines and only buying already titled dogs. You have *A* dog someone else titled. Not *ALL* dogs someone else titled.
> 
> We've seen over and over that there is always a CHANCE you're getting a good dog from a BYB (we've seen the argument before). That is why I am stressing *ADULTS* from rescue with _*KNOWN*_ TEMPERMENTS AND HEALTH. As an adult that is settled in their personality I do not think that the "origins" are so important. Adults are not the same level of "crapshoot" as puppies. And certain you confirmed my point with this:"... that might wash out due to hips/elbows, temperament, serious fault that I do not want to breed..."
> 
> No, rescues are not xraying. But I have never heard of a rescue opposing to a potential adopter asking to do so if that is important to them (yes, Sue...I'm sure you can round up one that has refused somone doing this). And health for the most part can be discerned. Poops consistently solid? Appetite good? Easy keeper? Known allergies? Food sensitivites? Skin and coat issues?
> 
> I'm not really sure where these inconsistencies are?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

GSDElsa said:


> I just went back to another thread where we were talking about the prettiness of working lines (or lack thereof according to some people). This is the dog that I meant to post (Medo's daddy--not that I'm biased or anything!).
> 
> Seriously, how can anyone think THIS isn't one of the most beautiful looking GSD on the planet? I heart me the sables!
> SG (JKL) Ickx von Haus - Klönne - German Shepherd Dog


Thats his dad! OMG HE IS BEAUTIFUL!:wub:

I like WGSL & DDR dogs mostly.


----------



## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> Uhm, uh, yeah, well, he isn't my type.
> 
> Sorry.


Yeah, Sue, I can see where tall, dark, handsome, and stable isn't your type.


----------



## Alyalanna

onyx'girl said:


> A red dark/black sable long coat then would fill the bill? :wub: I see so many gorgeous GSD's it is really hard to not love them all....what if they all looked like a breed that has only one cookie cutter 'look'? How boring would that be?


I think a red dark/black sable with a long coat sounds beautiful!


----------



## Alyalanna

JakodaCD OA said:


> Alyalanna>if you like the 'looks' of the working lines, there's a couple breeders I'd check out in WA,,schraderhaus (My masi's mom is there) and Von banach..both have dogs that I would never turn away from my door
> 
> I think we all have color/type preferences , I have had black/red-black/tan-bicolor-now a dark sable...I honestly thought I'd never own a sable color, at one point the 'color' just did not appeal to me,,but I went with "brains" this time and must say I am always drawn to a dark dog anyhow,,the sables have definately grown on me,,and I'll say it, I want a black or bicolor boy for my next one but it has to have brains to


Thanks! I will definitely keep them in mind. Though I may be coming back for more breeder recommendations since I may not be in Washington after I get my degree.


----------



## robinhuerta

I know that everyone's intentions are to "help" the OP right?!....then everyone needs to lighten up just a tad....
To the OP......you *can* find a nice, sound GSD puppy in the price range of $1000....you will need to contact breeders and ask...
The other thing that you will need to consider.....are you willing to have a puppy "shipped" to you??...because that is also added expense.


----------



## selzer

I think it matters much more the temperament of the adults in the family, the prospective owners, whether or not a rescue adult makes more sense than a good puppy. 

Finding a reputable rescue -- even if 95% of them are reputable, you can still run into the less reputable ones, has to be as interesting a process as finding a decent breeder. 

This site is all over the place somethimes. You mentioned proven health and temperament from a rescue. Sorry, from a reputable rescue. To prove health, you have to x-ray, you have to check cardiac, thyroid, heartworm, vWd, and maybe some others like CERF, and DM, spine x-ray etc. Neither breeders or rescues can do all of this. Good breeders run health screenings on their breeding animals before breeding them, but not on pups. Rescues do not either. What do rescues do to prove temperament? A good rescue will foster a dog, and get to know if he cannot handle adolescent boys in baseball caps, or cats, or whatever. Do they push them? Do they really know their temperaments? Not to the level of your SAR dogs or Schutzhund dogs, etc. So are they truly really tested. How long are they fostered for? Doesn't it take a month or so sometimes for a dog to relax enough and let show some of the bad habits he may have?

I think getting an adult from a rescue is a gamble too. The dog may do fine in a foster home, because the foster people are dog people and the dog understands the rules and accepts them. With a family that does not have a history with dogs and has little kids, and has a bottomless pit of sympathy for the poor rescue doggy, well it may be that this star-pupil for the month at the foster home, might become Mr. Hyde at the new home. 

Dogs live in the present for the most part, and when they go from one type of leadership to another, some of them may not be so "settled."

On the other hand, having a dog that passed it BH, and its SchH and its Koer, and is coming from a breeder that is known and trusted by a good friend and breeder, I think that that is a little less of a gamble in my opinion. We KNOW it has been raised to a certain level in training and it has been evaluated by a number of knowledgeable judges. 

So I think that is kind of apples to oranges. I can see both sides to getting an adult dog as opposed to a puppy for a family dog. I think it works out really really good sometimes. I think the dogs are generally coming from the breeders you say are likely to produce nerve bags, and it may not work out sometimes too.


----------



## selzer

GSDElsa said:


> Yeah, Sue, I can see where tall, dark, handsome, and stable isn't your type.


LOL! Who wants stable??? I want fun!

Here is my girl's sire, and I know he's not a lot of people's type and I am ok with that:
VA1 (2008 & 2009) Vegas du Haut Mansard - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## onyx'girl

Not going to try to one up you, but another perspective, here's my boys sire(for his intensity in protection work he is also a therapy dog):
K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9


----------



## robinhuerta

*_I'll show ya mine...if ya show me yours..*_LOL!
...it's a joke guys...


----------



## JakodaCD OA

is this like "_my dogs' better than your dogs" _LOL


----------



## GSDElsa

onyx'girl said:


> Not going to try to one up you, but another perspective, here's my boys sire(for his intensity in protection work he is also a therapy dog):
> K-9 Andy - Bojovnika K-9


Well I _guess _I'd take a puppy from Andy if you REALLY twisted my arm.  (ok, ok...back on topic)

"This is what a German Shepherd should be"
http://andymalyvah.tripod.com/


----------



## selzer

I think it is great that he has what it takes to be both -- that sounds like what a GSD should be like. Odessa could be a therapy dog, but not having seen her bite-work, I have a hard time believing it. She is super stable, airline workers, vets, anyone is fine with her. I have trained a therapy dog, one with the cert, and one that I did therapy with, and Odessa certainly has it in her. I should find somewhere to do bite work with her, just so I know what she is like.

But I think someone else on this thread said it, I am just not into the sable coloring. I like the markings the black and tan dogs have. I had a bi-color -- not Rush, he was a blanket black and tan. I don't want solid colored dogs either. Just a preference. Color is the last consideration, but I love black and red.


----------



## selzer

robinhuerta said:


> *_I'll show ya mine...if ya show me yours..*_LOL!
> ...it's a joke guys...


Didn't someone resign today for doing that????


----------



## robinhuerta

same silly game! LOL!

Actually...I think all the dogs named are quite nice.


----------



## onyx'girl

> Didn't someone resign today for doing that????


Do you think Anthony Wiener is German? Just curious


----------



## robinhuerta

Isn't he "Slobish"??....from the little Island of Slob-n-ass.?


----------



## selzer

robinhuerta said:


> Isn't he "Slobish"??....from the little Island of Slob-n-ass.?


----------



## Lin

None of the pictures on pdb will open for me


----------



## tuffloud1

While I continue my search, can anyone recommend a good dog door for an exterior wall?

I want to install it in my great room which leads out to a large side yard - 15 ft by 50 feet or so. The side yard is accessable to the rest of the back yard, which is 1/4 of an acre. I just finished landscaping it, grass, trees, dry creek beds, decomposed granite, mulch, etc.

I have the option of closing the side yard off with a gate. So then maybe when I'm gone after the pup is house trained, he can go in and out but be isolated to the side yard. I've heard of gsd owners having issues with them digging and destroying things.


----------



## sagelfn

Alyalanna said:


> Thanks! I will definitely keep them in mind. Though I may be coming back for more breeder recommendations since I may not be in Washington after I get my degree.


Von banach.. :wub: Missy's Akbar (where is Missy BTW?) http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/32738-mjbgsd.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/136656-akbar-photos-d.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/126595-critique-akbar-please.html

:wild::wub: Love that dog


----------



## Alyalanna

sagelfn said:


> Von banach.. :wub: Missy's Akbar (where is Missy BTW?) http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/32738-mjbgsd.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/136656-akbar-photos-d.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/126595-critique-akbar-please.html
> 
> :wild::wub: Love that dog


Thanks! I'm bookmarking all the breeders pages in my browser so I will be able to find them again when I am ready to get serious!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Oksana here has a von banach dog as well I think

Missy is on my Facebook,all is good with her


----------



## NancyJ

tuffloud1 said:


> While I continue my search, can anyone recommend a good dog door for an exterior wall?
> 
> I want to install it in my great room which leads out to a large side yard - 15 ft by 50 feet or so. The side yard is accessable to the rest of the back yard, which is 1/4 of an acre. I just finished landscaping it, grass, trees, dry creek beds, decomposed granite, mulch, etc.
> 
> I have the option of closing the side yard off with a gate. So then maybe when I'm gone after the pup is house trained, he can go in and out but be isolated to the side yard. I've heard of gsd owners having issues with them digging and destroying things.


You may want to post separately in the equipment section on that - not everyone reads every post so different folks may look at that question


----------



## selzer

I have to doggie doors, one through a wall, one through a door. I think one of the is a Carlson. I think. 

Both work fine. 

Let me provide some unsolicited advice:

If you get rain, then your dog will dig, will become muddy, probably from tail to snout while you are gone, if he can. He will track this mud in and onto your sofa. If he kills a bird or a rabbit or a tree limb or a fawn, this too can end up on your couch in your living room. 

I remember one day I had three ten week old puppies. they dragged in a tree-limb a big one, took up a good portion of a 14 x 20' room. I figure it was 10 foot long easy. I mentioned it here and someone said theirs dragged in the hind leg of a deer.

This sounds like I am against doggy doors. I am not. I love them. However, I have some suggestions.

First off, your pup/dog does not NEED a 50' fenced in yard to run around in all day. In fact he may get in trouble with all that space. He will certainly find any weakness in the fencing, he may climb and he may dig his way out. Instead, put down a 10' x 20' concrete pad and build a good solid six foot kennel with a strong gate. I use 9 gage wire. And I made a step so that the inside floor and the outside step are level with each other. 

Not the best photo, x-pen in there so that the dam could get away from the pups at times.









The next two photos show the inside area, here the whelping box and the next the baby gate to the living room:


















When I do not have pups, I either give the dog in the puppy pen, that part of the dog-room, or I use an x-pen to give them just a 4x4 area, using eyelits that self tap into the wall and then use bolt snaps to hold the x-pen to the wall:










Same 4x4 area with a couple of big pups:









So to sum up. Doggie door -- awesome if, there is a kennel outside that has concrete base -- no digging, no mud from tail to nose, and if contained inside to a room -- baby gate whatever, or x-pen to the wall -- no tearing through the house rubbing all over the sofa after rolling in a pile of poop. 

Remember, that many people leave their dogs at home all day for work in a crate. Leaving a dog in a 4x4 x-pen might encourage them to soil in it as it is large enough to sleep in one part and poop in another, but if they can go outside, I have found that they will if the inside area is not gigantic. So a 10 x 15 or 20 foot outdoor kennel and a 4x4 x-pen is tons of room for a pup or dog while you are not there. 

Make a gate you can get through to clean it easy every day. You can put a swimming pool in there, a cot in there, a dog house -- if it is not against the fencing so they cannot climb out. Make it six foot tall or taller or cap it with fencing but remember that you have to clean it, and you might not want to stoop. 6' is sufficent except when we have several inches of packed snow on the ground then I crack my head on rafters (most of my kennels are fenced over). 

Good luck.


----------



## tuffloud1

selzer said:


> I have to doggie doors, one through a wall, one through a door. I think one of the is a Carlson. I think.
> 
> Both work fine.
> 
> Let me provide some unsolicited advice:
> 
> If you get rain, then your dog will dig, will become muddy, probably from tail to snout while you are gone, if he can. He will track this mud in and onto your sofa. If he kills a bird or a rabbit or a tree limb or a fawn, this too can end up on your couch in your living room.
> 
> I remember one day I had three ten week old puppies. they dragged in a tree-limb a big one, took up a good portion of a 14 x 20' room. I figure it was 10 foot long easy. I mentioned it here and someone said theirs dragged in the hind leg of a deer.
> 
> This sounds like I am against doggy doors. I am not. I love them. However, I have some suggestions.
> 
> First off, your pup/dog does not NEED a 50' fenced in yard to run around in all day. In fact he may get in trouble with all that space. He will certainly find any weakness in the fencing, he may climb and he may dig his way out. Instead, put down a 10' x 20' concrete pad and build a good solid six foot kennel with a strong gate. I use 9 gage wire. And I made a step so that the inside floor and the outside step are level with each other.
> 
> Not the best photo, x-pen in there so that the dam could get away from the pups at times.
> 
> 
> The next two photos show the inside area, here the whelping box and the next the baby gate to the living room:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I do not have pups, I either give the dog in the puppy pen, that part of the dog-room, or I use an x-pen to give them just a 4x4 area, using eyelits that self tap into the wall and then use bolt snaps to hold the x-pen to the wall:
> 
> 
> 
> Same 4x4 area with a couple of big pups:
> 
> 
> So to sum up. Doggie door -- awesome if, there is a kennel outside that has concrete base -- no digging, no mud from tail to nose, and if contained inside to a room -- baby gate whatever, or x-pen to the wall -- no tearing through the house rubbing all over the sofa after rolling in a pile of poop.
> 
> Remember, that many people leave their dogs at home all day for work in a crate. Leaving a dog in a 4x4 x-pen might encourage them to soil in it as it is large enough to sleep in one part and poop in another, but if they can go outside, I have found that they will if the inside area is not gigantic. So a 10 x 15 or 20 foot outdoor kennel and a 4x4 x-pen is tons of room for a pup or dog while you are not there.
> 
> Make a gate you can get through to clean it easy every day. You can put a swimming pool in there, a cot in there, a dog house -- if it is not against the fencing so they cannot climb out. Make it six foot tall or taller or cap it with fencing but remember that you have to clean it, and you might not want to stoop. 6' is sufficent except when we have several inches of packed snow on the ground then I crack my head on rafters (most of my kennels are fenced over).
> 
> Good luck.


Great idea, thank you very much for the pictures and advice.

I can easily fence off the side yard where the dog door leads to. Otherwise, he will have this at his disposal - 




























Question: Would medium/small river rock suffice for the outdoor section/kennel? I have a large 100 year old plus redwood tree right outside where I'm installing the dog door. The grading is not sufficient to lay a concrete pad around it. Plus, the rocks allow drainage for the tree roots.


----------



## selzer

What ever is under that lawn chair looks perfect. It does not need to be huge -- 4' x 8' would be ok though larger is better. 

Your yard is beautiful. keep it that way. build a small kennel for the dog. And then enjoy the whole yard WITH him. 

If your dog is set loose in your yard every day, he might eat some of those plants and they could be poisonous for dogs. He may eat grass and barf it everywhere. He may dig his way out under or through your privacy fence. 

Make him a nice kennel. I do not like stone because puppies and sometimes dogs spill their food and then eat stones and can hurt their teeth and their digestive tract. I like what you have there under that chair and wheel barrow. It looks perfect just add a kennel. They sell 6' tall panels at TSC. You can buy one gate panel and five side pannels and use the house as part of the kennel and make it 10 10 or another panel 10 x 15 -- plenty big enough.


----------



## selzer

The tree. Hmmm. Any chance of installing the door somewhere else? I do not know dogs might be hard on the tree if he is bored. He might chew on it. It depends on the dog. 

You can always use wood chips. They keep mud down, and repel bugs. But concrete is your best bet over all especially where the kennel fencing is. Nothing stops a determined digger like concrete.


----------



## tuffloud1

selzer said:


> The tree. Hmmm. Any chance of installing the door somewhere else? I do not know dogs might be hard on the tree if he is bored. He might chew on it. It depends on the dog.
> 
> You can always use wood chips. They keep mud down, and repel bugs. But concrete is your best bet over all especially where the kennel fencing is. Nothing stops a determined digger like concrete.


I can't do the kennel under that overhang because that is where our outdoor furniture set is going. That overhang is right outside our master bedroom - 










The side yard is located directly outside the great room/family room which is where we want the dog coming in and out of. We were planning on putting the dog door under the left window and isolating this section of the yard - 











What about decomposed granite with stabilizer added to it? It makes it practically as hard as cement, but still permeable for water to penetrate.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I wouldn't use the rocks/pea stone in the beginning I have pea stone around my deck, and sure enough Masi was the first puppy I got that had a rock eating fetish!

She grew out of it, but she ate ALOT of rocks, not good


----------



## NancyJ

I am planning on using gravel in my dog area and was hoping to try the stabilizer myself. I figure if it can stand up to heavy foot and vehicle traffic, it could be pretty good. I would personally put some fence around the tree which would be easy enough to do. 

I have used gravel in the past and the issues I had were mainly - you need to rake it, pick up poop twice daily, if you have the runs you have to just dig out that gravel and clean it, and cleaning up leaves/debris is more of a hassle. You also need a border to hold it. 

For me, the issue with concrete is cost because I would have to have a pumper truck to get to it and given the size of the area estimates would easily exceed $5000. Why not feed the dogs inside? If you use mulch, definitely NOT cocoa mulch but I had a friends dog eat redwood mulch so much she bloated from it. I have been using pine needles in the area out side of my door but they disintigrate so quickly with the dog traffic it is not worth it. 

Is this what you are talking about? I costs about $1 a sq foot to use
Welcome to Klingstone Paths


----------



## tuffloud1

jocoyn said:


> I am planning on using gravel in my dog area and was hoping to try the stabilizer myself. I figure if it can stand up to heavy foot and vehicle traffic, it could be pretty good. I would personally put some fence around the tree which would be easy enough to do.
> 
> I have used gravel in the past and the issues I had were mainly - you need to rake it, pick up poop twice daily, if you have the runs you have to just dig out that gravel and clean it, and cleaning up leaves/debris is more of a hassle. You also need a border to hold it.
> 
> For me, the issue with concrete is cost because I would have to have a pumper truck to get to it and given the size of the area estimates would easily exceed $5000. Why not feed the dogs inside? If you use mulch, definitely NOT cocoa mulch but I had a friends dog eat redwood mulch so much she bloated from it. I have been using pine needles in the area out side of my door but they disintigrate so quickly with the dog traffic it is not worth it.
> 
> Is this what you are talking about? I costs about $1 a sq foot to use
> Welcome to Klingstone Paths


Ya concrete is expensive. 

I got the decomposed granite here from a guy locally. He has a big chunk of land that has it occuring naturally. He digs it out the side of a mountain. He only charged me 200 bucks delivered for 10 yards of it. Compared to the local landscaping supply, they would have charged 500 - 










I didn't add the stabilizer to it. I just compacted it with a compacter that I rented from Home Depot. It gets really hard during the summer and soft during the winter. However if I added the stabilizer, it would stay cement-hard year round and allow water to drain through. I will try to find the link to the stabilizer I was thinking of using.


----------



## Freestep

I really need to find something for my dog-yard. I put down pea gravel, but failed to put weedblock fabric down first. Dumb. Now I have weeds invading constantly; when they get to be about knee-high, I put the goats in there to chew it down. That works pretty well except for when I have dogs boarding here.  Has anyone ever tried that fake turf? Very expensive, but it sure looks nice. Just wondering how you keep it clean when it gets pooped on.


----------



## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> I really need to find something for my dog-yard. I put down pea gravel, but failed to put weedblock fabric down first. Dumb. Now I have weeds invading constantly; when they get to be about knee-high, I put the goats in there to chew it down. That works pretty well except for when I have dogs boarding here.  Has anyone ever tried that fake turf? Very expensive, but it sure looks nice. Just wondering how you keep it clean when it gets pooped on.


 
Weed fabric works great if you get the right kind. Don't get the cheap stuff, get the real commercial stuff that is weaved like a tarp or the stuff that looks like felt. Strong weeds can still penetrate the plasticy stretchy stuff.


Artificial turf is outrageously priced. I had thought about doing that for my grass area (1350 sq ft.). The cost would have been $10,000 and up!

I would imagine you would just pick up the bulk and rinse off the residue.


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## tuffloud1

Freestep said:


> I really need to find something for my dog-yard. I put down pea gravel, but failed to put weedblock fabric down first. Dumb. Now I have weeds invading constantly; when they get to be about knee-high, I put the goats in there to chew it down. That works pretty well except for when I have dogs boarding here.  Has anyone ever tried that fake turf? Very expensive, but it sure looks nice. Just wondering how you keep it clean when it gets pooped on.


To my suprise, the synthetic turf they carry in stock at Lowes is .47 cents a sq ft.

Granted it is probably cheapo looking and thin, but who cares? For a side yard dog run, I'm not in it for the looks. I just want to keep dirt from being tracked in the house. This might work, I'm going to check it out.

The good looking stuff usually runs anywhere from 3-5 bucks a sq ft. Plus all the gravel and sand.

I have really well draining soil, so it might work slapping this .47 cent stuff down directly over the soil with stakes to hold in place. The dirt in this area, since under a redwood tree is very firm from all the shollow roots, yet still drains very well. The urine will pass through and the poo can be picked up and then rinsed off with a hose.


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## NancyJ

I imagine the synhtetic turf would be a no go for us.

We had someone watching the dogs for us one emergency weekend and I told them if the dogs were not outside to crate them (and to play ball with them three times a day)

So the carpet will have to be replaced where they decided to dig through it (They did) - we were going to replace anyway with a hard surface floor but a bored GSD can do some real damage. They dug all the way down to the concrete slab (walkout basement)

Do post about the stabilizer though if there are other options!


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## tuffloud1

jocoyn said:


> I imagine the synhtetic turf would be a no go for us.
> 
> We had someone watching the dogs for us one emergency weekend and I told them if the dogs were not outside to crate them (and to play ball with them three times a day)
> 
> So the carpet will have to be replaced where they decided to dig through it (They did) - we were going to replace anyway with a hard surface floor but a bored GSD can do some real damage. They dug all the way down to the concrete slab (walkout basement)
> 
> Do post about the stabilizer though if there are other options!


After reading all over the internet, it seems that pea gravel is the economical solution.

It is nice even on my feet when I walk (I have it in other areas of my yard). So it will be fine for dogs. Easy to clean, drains and looks nice.

My idea is to put a small patch of synthetic turf right outside the dog door and then the rest of the side yard/dog run have pea gravel. I'm thinking this will work great.


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## tuffloud1

JakodaCD OA said:


> I wouldn't use the rocks/pea stone in the beginning I have pea stone around my deck, and sure enough Masi was the first puppy I got that had a rock eating fetish!
> 
> She grew out of it, but she ate ALOT of rocks, not good


What if I kept him in the inside kennel while at work and then supervise him when he's out in the pea gravel dog run while he's a puppy?

I plan on coming home at lunch to let him out to pee/poop.


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## TechieDog

FWIW, I recently did a small pad out of pea stone with stabilizer. I really wanted to use concrete but because of where it is, would have been expensive and a lot of work. 
It came out pretty well though. I used some seperator material first and then a mesh material that creates a very strong\solid base -though thats probably not necessary. It drains really well, like pouring water into a bottomless pit and it is very firm! 
My only concern is that with the stabilizer, the pea stone might be tough on the dog's feet. I intend to put down some thick rubber stall pads that will take up some of the area though so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. My area was small, 11x11 for now for a 10x10 kennel (I may enlarge it to to 10x15' long, not sure). Your area looks pretty large though and that stabilizer stuff is very expensive if its anything like what I used. 

In the past I had a kennel area with only pea stone. It got sloppy when it rained and over time needed to be re-dug and filled with fresh stone. I found it to be a bit of a pain. If you do use pea stone for the kennel area be sure to put flagstone or bricks ro something around the edges of the kennel or they will dig out quicker than you can blink.


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## NancyJ

TechieDog said:


> FWIW, I recently did a small pad out of pea stone with stabilizer. I really wanted to use concrete but because of where it is, would have been expensive and a lot of work.
> It came out pretty well though. I used some seperator material first and then a mesh material that creates a very strong\solid base -though thats probably not necessary. It drains really well, like pouring water into a bottomless pit and it is very firm!
> My only concern is that with the stabilizer, the pea stone might be tough on the dog's feet. I intend to put down some thick rubber stall pads that will take up some of the area though so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. My area was small, 11x11 for now for a 10x10 kennel (I may enlarge it to to 10x15' long, not sure). Your area looks pretty large though and that stabilizer stuff is very expensive if its anything like what I used.
> 
> In the past I had a kennel area with only pea stone. It got sloppy when it rained and over time needed to be re-dug and filled with fresh stone. I found it to be a bit of a pain. If you do use pea stone for the kennel area be sure to put flagstone or bricks ro something around the edges of the kennel or they will dig out quicker than you can blink.


Would love to see some pictures. what constitued each layer. What it wound up costing. I was looking at the product linked above - klingstone - which is about $1 a sq foot still a lot less than concrete. When I talked with them they indicated you just put down the gravel, tamp it down and apply their product.


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## TechieDog

Yes it is still a lot less than concrete.
I spoke the Klingstone rep. I ended up using something similar called Gravel-Lok. The price was more or less the same and I was able to pick-up Gravel-Lok locally plus I liked dealing with them. They were very helpful.

You can just put down the gravel, tamp and pour but I'd definitely use some seperator material. I got some at the local landscape place for $30 and its about 10x more than I needed! It is thicker than weed cloth. Anywhere that sells materials for building walls and such will probably have it. 

As far as costs: 
Gravel-Lok $183/jug (I bought 2 and used almost 1.5 - could probably get by with 1)
Seperator Material $30
Pressure treated Wood $30
Pea Stone (delivered) $190
Cell-Tek LSG3 (overkill) $87
----------------------------
Grand Total: $703

I could have saved $270 by only buying 1 Gravel-Lok and not using the LSG3 material but I figured I could use the extra Gravel-Lok for a small walkway and I was intrigued with the LSG material. I probably could have got a little less pea stone too. I have a full yard leftover but I may extend the pad so...
It can be done pretty economically if its what you want.

I attached a couple of pics showing the mesh material. I thought I had more progress shots with the stone, will have to look. I'll take one of the completed pad tomorrow so you can see what it looks like.


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## robinhuerta

Be-careful with pea gravel.....dogs tend to eat it. Then you have dogs being rushed to the vet for emergency surgery....it blocks the intestines quickly.
I know of at least 4 dogs that this has happened to......2 actually died.

I almost used the same thing.....but after knowing what happened to the other dogs....we have concrete cement.


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## selzer

Cement may cost more, but there it lasts, you can pick up poo and hose it off. Dogs cannot eat it, or dig out of it. I think in the long run it may prove cheaper, unless your concrete guy teases your dog until he slips a disk in his back. (I wasn't home.) The next day he was paralyzed, could not walk. I found out six months later from my regular contractor what actually happened. Note to self, never let ANYONE do ANY thing at my house when I am not there.


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## tuffloud1

robinhuerta said:


> Be-careful with pea gravel.....dogs tend to eat it. Then you have dogs being rushed to the vet for emergency surgery....it blocks the intestines quickly.
> I know of at least 4 dogs that this has happened to......2 actually died.
> 
> I almost used the same thing.....but after knowing what happened to the other dogs....we have concrete cement.


I can't do concrete. It simply won't work in this area. I can't do the dog run anywere else, my entire yard is already landscaped. The spot for the dog run is perfect, I just can't do cement.

Any suggestions?


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## JakodaCD OA

I posted earlier, masi when a puppy was a big time pea stone eater,,my gosh she'd gobble tons of it,,I was mortified since this was the first time I'd had a dog even think about eating it..so I had to micro manage her for awhile, she eventually grew out of it, but I was paranoid she'd ingest a ton of it, and then a nice surgery bill or worse.

Question>>Techie,,is the "gravel lock",,the stabilizer?? I have since been bricking in my area with pea stone, I have grown to hate the stuff..I have it around my deck, the dogs like to dig it throw it on the yard, it would be GREAT if I had no animals)

I'm thinking of using the stabilizer on parts of the pea stone I have left...and where can you get it? home depot? Lowes that type of place?


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## TechieDog

Yes Gravel-Lok is the stabilizer (same as Klingstone paths). You have to check out the dealer list on their website (celltekdirect.com), or order it direct from them and they send it UPS. Lowes and Home depot don't sell it. Kilinstone paths is the same but has even fewer dealers, so you'll probably have to order that direct if you go that route. Price is very close as I recall.

I grew to hate pea stone too. I had concrete at another house and it was great but I just can't do it here. I investigated every option to do concrete here but it was just unrealistic. I investigated all of the deckings etc. and just really did not want to go that route. Probably would opt for pavers as my second choice.


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## NancyJ

How long has it been in? In issues with dogs knocking stones loose? I was looking at using a fairly fine pea gravel (finer than I would use without a binder)

Looking forward to the photo.

You were not kidding. It is the exact same product per the MSDS. Gravel-lok is based in MD and Klingstone is based in NC.
Gravel-lok has some distributors, Klingstone is direct sale only.


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## TechieDog

I put it in only about a month or so ago. The new dog has not arrived yet  but there is no way those stones are coming loose! I got down on the ground with a hammer to try to kick out one that was sticking up a little. I had to smash it and the stone broke before the bonding gave way. Like I said my only concern is that it may be a little tough on their feet. I used 3/8 pea stone. I didn't find anything finer but I think the stuff works better with larger material. You should ask them about whatever you are considering using. Also, the better you compact/tamp it, the smoother it will be.


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## TechieDog

tuffloud1 said:


> I can't do concrete. It simply won't work in this area. I can't do the dog run anywere else, my entire yard is already landscaped. The spot for the dog run is perfect, I just can't do cement.
> 
> Any suggestions?


 
I sympathize with you. I looked at all the options. I think your options are pavers, stabilizer with the pea stone, or decking material (which seems unclean to me). Other than that you probably have to undertake the massive project of hauling in bags of cement and a mixer and thats probably not cost effective. This seems like a common problem.


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## TechieDog

Here is what it looks like. Sorry for the lousy phone pic. with the shadows and bright sun, will have to do for now. I am currently putting a fence up behind it and then I will raise the kennel. Hopefully I will even have a dog to put in there one of these days


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## NancyJ

That looks great. I am inspired.

I have up fence posts - which we need to stain (because of my yard I cannot do square pens without extensive grading) - and put fabric on.


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## TechieDog

Thanks. It actually looks better in person than in that pic. Good luck if you go that route and if you have any questions feel free to PM me. I'll update or post a seperate thread when I actually get a dog on it and see how it works out.


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## Jack's Dad

Didn't have time to read the whole thread. Cement can be expensive but you don't need it near as thick for dogs as you would for a fairly permanent walkway or patio. You could put a base of de-composed granite and then a couple of inches of cement instead of more standard 3 or 4. De-composed granite is fairly cheap. I don't trust the possible toxicity of the sprays on the pea gravel.


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## TechieDog

Hunter Jack said:


> Didn't have time to read the whole thread. Cement can be expensive but you don't need it near as thick for dogs as you would for a fairly permanent walkway or patio. You could put a base of de-composed granite and then a couple of inches of cement instead of more standard 3 or 4. De-composed granite is fairly cheap. I don't trust the possible toxicity of the sprays on the pea gravel.


I looked into that but it was still a lot of bags of cement which is problematic at best (hills, cost, mixing etc). Also in my case I live in the northeast where we get a lot of snow/ice and I'd be worried that frost heaves would crack/ruin a thinner cement pad. 

I had a cement pad under a kennel at another location. I agree it is the best solution. I really wanted to do that this time here and investigated ALL of the options. It really was not practical. You are going to have to take my word on that. I'm sure same goes for these others.

As far as toxicity of the stabilizer, there is no concern, you can read the detailed MSDS (http://celltekdirect.com/new/pdf/gravellok_msds_cured.pdf ) on their website. I also spoke with them on the phone about it. Not worried.


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## Jack's Dad

Glad to hear it is non toxic. I apologize for not reading the whole thread but was the issue of digging discussed? Will the pea gravel with stabilizer hold up to digging?


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## Tbarrios333

GSDElsa said:


> This isn't midschool. Telling me to go away isn't going to ge me to trot off with my tail between my legs.
> 
> My first post may not have been what you wanted to hear, but hardly condescending. Actually full of sage advice. My second...perhaps...after you dished your own giant pile of rudeness and denying considering purchasing a dog from him.
> 
> Condescending would have been telling you if you aren't willing to spend $1200 on a dog you don't deserve one at all. I gave you a very viable option that would meet the price requirements you want without supporting a bad breeder. I'm heavily involved in rescue. *If I thought you were going to be a horrible dog owner I hardly would suggest one of my precious rescues.*


This is actually a really big compliment coming from a rescue person 
Sorry, I was reading through and shocked to see it!


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## TechieDog

Hunter Jack said:


> Glad to hear it is non toxic. I apologize for not reading the whole thread but was the issue of digging discussed? Will the pea gravel with stabilizer hold up to digging?


It is very very very solid. I tried freeing up a single stone that was sticking up a little and had to smash it with a hammer. The stone crushed before the stuff gave way. I cant imagine any dog digging through it. There is no looseness at all. 

After I get some time with a dog on it we'll see how it works out and then I'll post my conclusions. I've seen dogs do some amazing things so I'm reserving judgement for now. You never know what may crop up but I cant imagine digging will be a problem. I am a little concerned that it may be tough on the dogs feet/pads though.


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## Jack's Dad

Please do update I'm very curious to see how it turns out.


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## NancyJ

Bump to techie dog. My fence is up and now we are trying to figure out concrete pavers or stabilized gravel. How is it going? You have a dog yet? More pix.


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## TechieDog

Everything is up now. Dog arrives sometime this week (hopefully).
I will post a new thread sometime soon.


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## NancyJ

I know you just got your dog and he is still a puppy but any assessment on the gravel-lok.

I am at the stage where I may be ordering EEK 10 yards of pea gravel next week. Right now the tree-guy is doing an annual go through and removing some dead or threatening limbs and we have someone else moving the sprinkler system pipes as I figure any break under that pad would be bad news.

I am really hoping to beat the falling leaves of fall.


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## TechieDog

The kennel is working out just fine so far. As far as being hard on his feet, it is a non-issue. I have a rubber stall pad in part of the area but he tends to sleep on the stone anyhow. The only reason I have not made the post is that the dog has yet to poop in the kennel so I do not know how hard it is to clean-up! 

EEk is right! 10 yards of pea stone is a lot! Did you do the math to determine how much you need?


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## NancyJ

I sure did. I figured for 1000 sf 3" deep (per the directions on the polymer) 
gives 9.25 yards. Then I added some extra for other projects (steps down the hill in the back yard)

I plan on getting some stall mats as well and they have a covered wooden deck within the area. 

What I gather is they tend to clog up in about 5 years but I figure a quarterly blast with the pressure washer and rigorous maintenance should help. Also wet/dry vac.

This is no cheap project


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## TechieDog

Wow. how big is your kennel area?
Sounds like you will need a lot of the gravel-lok too. That stuff is expensive. Are you definitely going that route?


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## NancyJ

1000 SF (kennel patio) yes no loose pea gravel. My calculations on the klingstone is about $1 per SF. I still come out cheaper than concrete and it will look better.

Because of our location we would need a pumper truck for the concrete and I figure the gravel comes out to about 80 cents a square foot and the klingstone $ 1 

Concrete pavers are about $1.15 per SF but you still need grave base
Concrete pad is about $3.50 per SF installed I think (not including the pumper truck) or $2.00 per SF not inlcuding rebar or labor and still requires gravel base..

If you see any math errors I don't mind being pointed out. The area is not just dog pens/it is patio area behind the house as well and will help stabilize a hill (we are planting american holly downhill from it as well as otehr ground covers with fibrous root systems.


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## TechieDog

is the area very wide?
The trick is to get the pea stone material as flat as possible so you want to spend plenty of time on the preparation, especially packing, tamping it, and smoothing it.

Your area is much larger than mine. How are you planning on applying the klingstone?
I used the watering can method and I had a large plank across the middle of the area sitting on concrete blocks. I was able to walk on the plank to reach the middle of the pad wihtout disturbing the gravel.
Also, the gravel-lok had some sediment in it especially near the bottom and that clogs the holes on the applicator. Klingstone will probably be the same. 
The cap on the water can that I used could be unscrewed which helped when it got clogged up. I simply took it off and wiped it clean with the rubber gloves I was wearing. When it first got clogged I ended up getting too close to the gravel and disturbed it in a couple of places. Those were my only mess-ups. Cleaning out the spout helped alleviate that though.
I highly recommend wearing eye protection, rubber gloves, long pants and work boots!
Also, try not to use all of the klingstone on the first application. There will be places you miss and you can put down a second (light) application after the first dries. I used a leaf blower after the second application was dry to find loose stones. 
Good luck.


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## NancyJ

I do have two areas that are 15 x 11 feet but I appreciate the helpful hints. Yes it will be tedious project. Like the plank suggestion too. They are the same product - same difference I can get klingstone locally so no shipping. Since the product cures with humidity you may want to make sure you donlt hang onto it too long before you use it up.


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## TechieDog

I used most of what was left on the second application and what is left is sealed pretty well. 
Have fun!


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## TechieDog

Hey, I just got a message from the Gravel-Lok guys. They saw the discussion here and asked if they could post my project on their blog. 

Check it out: http://gravel-lok.blogspot.com/2011/10/gravel-lok-is-going-to-dogs.html

For completeness, here is a pic of the area more-or-less finished and with an actual dog!
I intend to put decorative stones on top of the loose gravel around the sides. I only did that to help with drainage from around the house and behind the fence.


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## Konotashi

If you want a BYB dog, go to a shelter. 

The sire's owner seems like he knows what he's doing. Or who knows, maybe he's registered and has OFA just so the owner can get some money studding him out. No GOOD breeder would think to stud their males out to breed a bitch with no titles, papers, or health clearances to speak of.


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## Marnie

I don't like those white feet. That's the pup you are interested in, right? Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen a white footed purebred GSD??? 

This is just from my personal experience. Years ago I bought a pup from a broker that imported dogs mostly for police in Alabama. The pup was pretty expensive and had a guarantee, of course. So when the pup is about 11 months old, we get him x-rayed becuase he's limping on a hind leg. Very, very, very shallow sockets, these hips are time bombs. So I call the broker and he says bring the dog back. I ask what are you going to do with him? Euthanize him. Well, that made me sick because I loved the dog. Anyway, I asked how long until I would get a replacement. Maybe two years, maybe longer. As far as I was concerned, the guarantee wasn't worth the paper it was written on. I kept the dog and the fantastic vet I had worked with the procedures that were available back then. We got the dog thru to 6-years of age before I had to let him go. So...weigh your options.


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## huntergreen

old thread ?


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## TechieDog

I keep getting a lot of messages on my kennel posts, to follow up for anyone interested, the flooring has held up really well and has worked out really well for me. 
My dog is super clean and never goes to the bathroom in there so I dont know how well it would work for dogs that do especially those that trampled in it. 
I would totally do it again though and am thinking of adding on for a another dog soon.


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## Neko

tuffloud1 said:


> I just contacted the breeder and told her I will pass.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice everyone! You are all very helpful.
> 
> Again, if anyone can point me to reputable breeders near the Sacramento/Roseville California area, please do!


I think that you have made a good choice to walk away. I know someone personally who got a very cute pup, very cheap and the very much loved dog only lived until 2 years old and they spent thousands trying to keep the pup alive. Health testing and good matching is very important in my opinion. It's a better shot at a healthy dog and might save you money in the long run.


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## germaknee

Freestep said:


> I like that some of Valkyrie's dogs have gone on to work in police and SAR.
> 
> I visited this kennel way back when, probably 15 years ago, when I was first looking for a pup. At the time, the kennel was not at the owner's home, but he had a caretaker living on the property. All the dogs looked well cared for and appeared to have good temperament.


I know this is responding to a very old thread but I never saw this until today. Freestep - you have to be talking about someone else. Valkyre has always been at her house, never owned by someone else off prem and not a man unless you include the husband. You can find information at any of the registered sites like OFFA.ORG using the correct kennel name. Valkyre not Valkyrie.
Micky


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## xw227751

Genetics gets very complicated, and it takes a long time for responsible breeders to get to the point they're at. They typically start out as enthusiasts and learn and possibly begin their breeding under an experienced mentor. The price of a pup from a reputable breeder is higher due to all the work that went in to the dogs to prove them as breeding quality.


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