# Prong collar for walking?



## Hyde (Jan 9, 2011)

Hello everyone is it safe to use a prong collar for walking? My dog is 5 months about to be 6 months soon i was wondering if it's safe to use a prong collar so that she will learn to stop pulling. I only want to use the prong collar to stop my dog from pulling too much because she has too much strength. Is it safe to be using a prong collar for a puppy this young? Should i wait until she's older? if so how old should she be before i use a prong collar? Is there other uses for the prong collar? My trainer recommended a prong because our dog pulls and drags us around a lot. What are other uses of the prong collar? I also heard that dogs can become aggressive towards other dogs from using it is this true? Can they become aggressive towards humans too? Also are there other better ways to stop her from pulling instead of the prong collar?


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## SweetSalem (Oct 22, 2010)

My Salem is 10 months...we have been using a prong collar on her since 5 1/2 months old. It has worked wonders along with getting her some training.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I've used a prong collar since Stosh was 6 mos old. It's a very helpful tool if fitted and used properly. And despite it's menacing looks it's not as harmful to the neck as constant pulling. I still use it when we go to a new place or when I need to be sure I have total control. Check out leerburg.com for info on using them.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

I started using a prong with Xander when he was 7 months old. It is like power steering - it's amazing. I use it on the dead ring and he walks just fine. I do make sure I ALWAYS have a back up collar on him in case the prong comes undone. 

I use either a fur saver (has gotten caught up in a prong once) or a martingale as a backup.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

OP: Does your dog understand what you are asking of her? Meaning have you worked on loose leash walking utilizing other methods before thinking about adding the prong?

A prong will band-aid the issue but until your dog has a clear understanding what it means when walking on a loose leash you essentially are not teaching anything. 

You need to undue the learned behavior, pulling. You can start by teaching a "watch me" or "focus" command, that way you can use it each time the leash gets taut. If the dog pulls, ask her to check in with you by using one of those commands. She will have to turn her attention back to you thus giving a loose leash. Reward and move on. 
The prong is only a tool, but again not a cure.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Titon has started to become an Iditarod sled dog with me on walks. No amount of prompting with "Watch me" etc. works. Back to the prong collar I will go. 

If I make him heel and hold my finger on his collar, he walks awesome. Its as soon as I let go of my finger that he uses all of the leash to his benefit. 

I've also noticed something... 

Titon has a BEAUTIFUL heel when it means to come and sit by my left leg. But I think I'm confusing him by also using heel in walking. Do you guys have a different word to use for "heel walking"?? 

-E


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

TitonsDad said:


> Titon has a BEAUTIFUL heel when it means to come and sit by my left leg. But I think I'm confusing him by also using heel in walking. Do you guys have a different word to use for "heel walking"??


Actually quite the opposite for us. "By Heel" means come to my leg and sit. "Heel" means walk. That's what we use anyway. If you wanted to keep the "heel" for come to my leg and sit- then perhaps you could use "fuss" for walk.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

valreegrl said:


> OP: Does your dog understand what you are asking of her? Meaning have you worked on loose leash walking utilizing other methods before thinking about adding the prong?
> 
> A prong will band-aid the issue but until your dog has a clear understanding what it means when walking on a loose leash you essentially are not teaching anything.
> 
> ...


Yes - this - what do they have you do in training classes? That will help a lot. 

I like to use a front clip harness for pulling in conjunction with training. This is a Premier type:







Please wait
Image not available







eBay.com.sg: PREMIER GENTLE LEADER EASY WALK DOG HARNESS - NO PULL (item 130424704354 end time Apr 23, 2011 01:00:46 SGT)

There are other types of no pull harness, the Sensation, and others I can't remember!

I am using one on a foster right now - I use a coupler and clip it to his martingale collar and he's all good - he's a mix, maybe Beagle and Lab and a Beagle...they seem to have no feeling of discomfort and if they pull, they really pull! It is working really well. It is a pleasure to walk him. I feel more like I have a horse too.


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## Hyde (Jan 9, 2011)

valreegrl said:


> OP: Does your dog understand what you are asking of her? Meaning have you worked on loose leash walking utilizing other methods before thinking about adding the prong?
> 
> A prong will band-aid the issue but until your dog has a clear understanding what it means when walking on a loose leash you essentially are not teaching anything.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have worked on loose leash walking with her she does fine with me alone but when we go for walks with the entire family she will bark and whine if someone gets in front of her or goes off too far from her and she will start pulling. I have tried focus but it doesn't work all the time most of the time she is too distracted. I do stop and wait for her to come back to me and then I praise her and then we continue the walk but this is only when she is walking with me alone. With our family walking together it is very hard to control her.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

A prong will not “band-aid” the issue IF you learn to use it correctly as a training tool. Preferably would be great to have taught the loosh lease healing before receiving a point where your trainer would recommend adding a prong collar as a training aid but not everyone does. 

A couple of questions:

What type of collar have you been using? Flat collar, martingale collar? Or something else? If a flat collar, then try moving up to a martingale collar.

How is the training/class you’re in? Are you trying to teach the heeling when it’s just you and your pup? Or are you doing this in a class setting where there are other dogs?
You and your pup – best way to initially teach this as well as other commands.

The trainer who recommended you start using a prong collar now: how comfortable are you with his/her advice and recommendations-and with their training techniques? While coming here is great for suggestions and advice /tips, it’s hard to beat the “eyes on the scene” if you have confidence/comfort in your trainer. If you are uncomfortable, then maybe you need to shop around a bit more for other trainers/classes in your area. Have they stepped forward in showing you how you can and should use a prong collar? (Should do this before you run out to spend money on buying the equipment and absolutely before you start to use it.) Have you been to observe your trainer working another dog with a prong on? When used properly, you will only have to have light pressure on your leash communicate through a prong collar. Maybe not initially but fairly quickly.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

No, a prong will not make your dog more aggressive towards either people or dogs. The advice above my post is by far the best advice in this entire thread IMHO.

Prongs are not band-aids, they are training tools to better the communication between you and your dog. I see so many anti prong people who are having problems with loose leash walking who jerk and yank and get drug by their dog on a flat collar, and somehow they think yanking all day on a flat collar is better than a very light occasional correction on a prong.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have been training Yoko in competition obedience since she was 10 wks old. I think we started using the prong between 6 mos and a year. When you are not in a formal heel, especially when the dog hasnt even learned it yet, and are just walking along, the prong is great for no pulling. I use 'lets go' for moving without heeling. The prong keeps my arm in its socket. Teaches Yoko to respect the prong and walk nicely without being in a formal heel. Never leave the prong on your dog when not being supervised. And that goes for any collar (choke, fur saver).

If your puppy has no idea what heel is yet, you may be doing more harm than good when walking along and having the puppy pull you. Then you constantly correct. What fun is that?? The prong will allow both of you to have a relaxed walk with the family. Have your trainer show you how to fit one and how to use it correctly.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Hyde said:


> Yes, I have worked on loose leash walking with her she does fine with me alone but when we go for walks with the entire family she will bark and whine if someone gets in front of her or goes off too far from her and she will start pulling. I have tried focus but it doesn't work all the time most of the time she is too distracted. I do stop and wait for her to come back to me and then I praise her and then we continue the walk but this is only when she is walking with me alone. With our family walking together it is very hard to control her.


The family is another distraction and by pulling you she is getting where she wants to go. Really, it's that easy...no quick fixes. 
Take a few walks to work with her as a family. Use your current foundation training to your advantage and begin with the family behind her. When she is focused on you allow one member to move forward, if she reacts everyone stops until she checks in with the handler than move on. Continue to work through until you can have each member of the family be in front, behind, next to her, etc. 

She understands what you are asking alone, yes. But dogs do not generalize so you need to teach her what is expected in a group setting by doing the above. 

Corrections are only to be used when your dog has a COMPLETE understanding of what you are asking.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Titon wears a martingale collar and I can get the thing really tight when he pulls and it doesn't phase him at all. This is the same collar that I use my finger with to ensure he stays next to me like I described in a previous post. 

I don't know why he has all of a sudden the mindset of running the Anchorage to Nome dog sled race with me in tow? 

I'm going to use your suggestion of Fuss to be heeling while walking and "By Heel" is sit by my left leg which he does on the dime. 

Maybe I don't have the prong collar on right? I have it pretty snug high up on the neck like illustrated in HS websites. He knows when its on that its not going to be pleasant for him if he pulls.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

TitonsDad said:


> Titon wears a martingale collar and I can get the thing really tight when he pulls and it doesn't phase him at all. This is the same collar that I use my finger with to ensure he stays next to me like I described in a previous post.
> 
> I don't know why he has all of a sudden the mindset of running the Anchorage to Nome dog sled race with me in tow?
> 
> ...


In what instance is he pulling? Is he pulling to get to something, someone? Does he walk nicely without distraction but out in public you see these behaviors? 

You have to take a step back and analyze the issue before adding a tool to correct it. If it is distraction, then you need to begin to work him below his threshold then add in. If it is all the time, go back to basics and work the loose leash training from the beginning. 

Again, adding correction without a clear understanding of what you are asking will not work.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Val-

I sincerely appreciate your input. I'm really trying to understand where this is all coming from. Honestly, he pulls ALL the time. Doesn't matter what we're doing, where we are, etc. 

However, if I limit his leash to next to me. It's tight and he has to walk next to me. If I let out a little slack, he'll take advantage of it and use it to get tight. If I use my finger in his martingale collar to where he HAS to be next to me in order to walk, he's okay with that and it is a little tight on my finger. If I stop, he stops. If I walk slow, he walks slow. If I walk faster, he walks faster. This is ONLY with my finger is his collar. 

I've tried the stop like a tree routine several times with the leash and that doesn't do much good. 

I think a big part of it is that he's always been leash free since a puppy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Try one of the no pull harnesses - I didn't want to because I felt like a dog could walk out of them - that's why I use the coupler to double up with the martingale collar (and I don't know if that's true or not but I am paranoid). I was amazed at how easily it worked. Maybe I got lucky - if you could try one on in a store it would help.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Jean-

I spent a pretty good penny on one of those no-pull harnesses. I actually believe it is the same one you posted above. Sales person swore up and down that it would work because when the dog pulls, the harness forces them to turn towards you. Didn't work for Titon. I'm gonna have to get that harness out again and fit it properly and try again. 

I'm getting really pissed off with his pulling because we go to the mountains every weekend and there is a part of the trail he has to be on leash to get to off leash area and its down hill, muddy, icy, wet and I know for a fact I'm going to be sliding on my bum one of these days or much worse, fall over the edge of the cliff.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

TitonsDad said:


> Val-
> 
> I sincerely appreciate your input. I'm really trying to understand where this is all coming from. Honestly, he pulls ALL the time. Doesn't matter what we're doing, where we are, etc.
> 
> ...


He has no choice but to check in with you and respect your body position with your finger in the collar. Essentially he needs to learn how to walk on a leash, and respect you at the other end. 
If you clip a leash on and he immediately begins to pull and ignore you then start at bare bones. 
Dogs have 4 main motivators, food/affection/play-environment/punishment. 
Utilize these motivators to get the behavior you want.
For instance, being on the leash and checking in with Dad is the greatest thing in the world to your dog. If you do not have a 100% check in without the leash, then on it you won't either. Start by asking for a check in command and really engage him when he does it. Play tug, give lots of yummy treats, lots of affection, toss the ball....whatever works. Then put the leash on and work the same way. 

*"I'm really trying to understand where this is all coming from."*
Because I see lots of dogs walking blank eyed with a prong on after getting corrected without truly knowing what was expected of them first. Too many hitting shut down and running through collars. 
Notice, punishment was at the end of the list of motivators  

Not saying this is you or anybody else, but I never jump right to prong without working a behavior through first.


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## ilivenanigloo (Jul 6, 2006)

Prongs can work wonderfully, if used properly on the right dog. Lupa used to pull right through a slip collar like it was a flat collar so I got prong collar for her. She didn't pull as badly, but she wanted to. Lupa has had a prong since she was 7 months old. I only use the prong on walks in busy areas, around other dogs or to fix behaviours like pulling. Once she learns not to pull, you can use a different collar if there is not another reason to keep it. 

I grabbed my parents' retractable leash one day and taught Lupa to "stop." I let her walk in front and told her to "stop" at varying distances from me. I would click the button and pull back a bit to simulate a pull and say "stop." She was wearing a prong collar, not to force her to stop, but remove the option of pulling. When she pulls now, she stops and looks at me. It's also a very useful command! I've used it to tell her to stop at intersections, when crossing a road, or to stop her from approaching an object. 

You could try this with a flat collar before deciding to get a prong. I know some people aren't going to like the lack of positive reinforcement here, but it's kind of difficult to play fetch on a sidewalk by a busy road. I don't see how it's any different than a handler staying put to teach a dog not get so excited on a leash and pull their handler to the door or gate.

Something I'm trying now is to change directions when she gets in front of me so she will (hopefully, at least this is the idea) learn to pay more attention to where I am. Many a circle has been walked in the last week. I have heard this can help pulling as well. 

I hope that helps! It might at least give you another option if you're still unsure of a prong.


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## ilivenanigloo (Jul 6, 2006)

OK, I just noticed the part about the family walk. Maybe you could put her in a sit-stay in your front yard or a familiar area on your walking route surrounded by the family and have each individual step away and step back, one at a time and build up to longer distances, then more people stepping away and stepping back, then multiple people walking a short distance away until you can walk her like this. It would be like a shaping exercise. Just a wild-ass guess! 

A gentle lead works for my dog too, but too many people would see a GSD in a muzzle.


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## JackShepherd (Dec 16, 2010)

I gotta say I was really against the prong at first, but our obedience class instructor pretty much demanded that we use it, the type we cut is rounded metal which is more gsmoth and wont cut, and I actually put it around my bare arm and squeezed to see what it felt like and was surprised that it was not so bad, I think it also gave me a better idea of how much presure to apply when it is on my dog, but I am so glad I started using it. We had a pretty serious problem with Jack picking up cigarette butts on walks ( we live in aconco so it's pretty unavoidable) and other bad things and commands to leave just didn't work, partially i think because of his age but the prong has worked wonders. We tried the gentile leader and it was a disaster, the prong has really made all the difference ( we have been using since Jack was 5 months) and I am glad I at least gave it a chance.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Again, adding correction without a clear understanding of what you are asking will not work.


Of course it will. It works on a daily basis at training facilities around the world. 

Teaching a loose leash walk is really very simple with a prong. Dog lunges forward, issue just enough correction to get him to ease up on the leash. Dog walks nicely for a brief moment, loose comfortable leash. Dog has no idea yet why the prong was utilized. So he darts to the side to sniff something or pull to see a passing walker/dog. Correction on the prong. Dog is thinking "hmmmm" as he walks along on a once again loose leash after the correction. He walks a bit further, then darts forward once again. Prong is popped, he goes back to the loose leash. It beings to sink in that when he pulls, the prong is utilized, and when he walks nicely near the owner, he's comfortable.

Usually doesn't take more than a few corrections before it sinks in. Using it for more advanced OB is going to require more knowledge of course, but people here just make things way too difficult.

Hook the collar up, give a correction when the dog pulls, and you'll quickly have a much happier dog and owner who walk more regularly and safely.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I have the dog who will pull right through the prong tight around his neck if my kids run out infront of him. It's helpful, without, he'd dislocate my shoulder but it's not the cure all.

I recommend the rubber tipped one for a 5 month old. Work with the kids too, they need to stay right near your puppy. It's a long road. My nearly 3 y/o 'puppy' ripped his tags off his collar last week trying to chase after my daughter who was running from school to the playground.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

A dog should not be "pulling through" a prong. It should be popped as a correction, then loose. Stronger correction if the dog ignores it, then loose. Yes some dogs will respond to a prong as though it's self correcting, but many won't.

No, it's not a cureall, it requires training utilizing proper corrections.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Rerun said:


> Of course it will. It works on a daily basis at training facilities around the world.
> 
> Teaching a loose leash walk is really very simple with a prong. Dog lunges forward, issue just enough correction to get him to ease up on the leash. Dog walks nicely for a brief moment, loose comfortable leash. Dog has no idea yet why the prong was utilized. So he darts to the side to sniff something or pull to see a passing walker/dog. Correction on the prong. Dog is thinking "hmmmm" as he walks along on a once again loose leash after the correction. He walks a bit further, then darts forward once again. Prong is popped, he goes back to the loose leash. It beings to sink in that when he pulls, the prong is utilized, and when he walks nicely near the owner, he's comfortable.
> 
> ...


How are you going to transition off the prong? Or are you not? 

What you described is exactly the reason why I offered a solution beyond the prong. Too many people doing just that, toss the prong on let the dog correct itself and moving on. The dog never truly learns how to walk on a loose leash, just how to avoid the negative reinforcement.
Remove the tool and you are back to right where you started. 

Adding corrections is only useful after a correct behavior has been taught, otherwise the correction is useless.

Good thing dogs are so forgiving or we would be in trouble.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

at 6 months old your dog should be heeling. teach
your dog to heel on either side with or without a leash.
ask your trainer why isn't he teaching your dog to heel???


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You can also use a more motivational method like the Volhard method. More fun for everyone, things are pretty clear pretty quickly and you can use food, then toy, then praise. I can get nice heeling from a puppy really quickly using that and then slowly work in distractions. 

TitonsDad - sorry the no pull harness didn't work so well - I would definitely try refitting it - because it is working on my puppy monster. I mean foster. He's not a GSD, which to me makes it harder to teach things. I hope it works with some more tries - in fact, grab a spoon and some peanut butter and lure him around using that for a bit with it on, praising and showing him what you want, see if that helps.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

valreegrl said:


> The dog never truly learns how to walk on a loose leash, just how to avoid the negative reinforcement.


Using a prong collar in the method described is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> How are you going to transition off the prong? Or are you not?
> 
> What you described is exactly the reason why I offered a solution beyond the prong. Too many people doing just that, toss the prong on let the dog correct itself and moving on. The dog never truly learns how to walk on a loose leash, just how to avoid the negative reinforcement.
> Remove the tool and you are back to right where you started.
> ...


 
Sorry I don't agree with that at all, and the basis of your argument doesn't make much since to me because mine don't transition back to dragging me around if I walk them on a flat collar, but then I don't see much of a need to transition off the prong. To me the prong is like an emergency brake. It's there if you need it, otherwise it's not in the way and everyone forgets about it. It's not harming the dog being on their neck, so what is the point of making them transition to something else. Just to say you can?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You can also use a more motivational method like the Volhard method. More fun for everyone, things are pretty clear pretty quickly and you can use food, then toy, then praise. I can get nice heeling from a puppy really quickly using that and then slowly work in distractions.
> 
> TitonsDad - sorry the no pull harness didn't work so well - I would definitely try refitting it - because it is working on my puppy monster. I mean foster. He's not a GSD, which to me makes it harder to teach things. I hope it works with some more tries - in fact, grab a spoon and some peanut butter and lure him around using that for a bit with it on, praising and showing him what you want, see if that helps.


I have known a number of people who did not have success with the no pull harnesses. So I doubt in this case that it's just an issue of fit.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Too many people doing just that, toss the prong on let the dog correct itself and moving on.


The dog isn't correcting itself using the method I described. The handler is issuing the correction.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Lin said:


> Using a prong collar in the method described is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement.


They are the same thing. Positive punishment is adding a consequence to an unwanted behavior. Negative reinforcement is the same thing, reinforcing what you want through consequence. 



Rerun said:


> Sorry I don't agree with that at all, and the basis of your argument doesn't make much since to me because mine don't transition back to dragging me around if I walk them on a flat collar, but then I don't see much of a need to transition off the prong. To me the prong is like an emergency brake. It's there if you need it, otherwise it's not in the way and everyone forgets about it. It's not harming the dog being on their neck, so what is the point of making them transition to something else. Just to say you can?


No, because a prong is a training tool meant to be utilized within a training program. Not the end all be all. Transitioning off is the end result, or at least it should be. When have you ever seen a dog running agility on a prong, doing any sort of tracking work, Schutzhund trials, etc. 
A dog is not like a car, they do not need power steering or emergency brakes. They need understanding, patience, training and a leader.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> They are the same thing. Positive punishment is adding a consequence to an unwanted behavior. Negative reinforcement is the same thing, reinforcing what you want through consequence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With all due respect, not every poster on this forum has an interest in competing in agility, tracking, schutzhund, etc. The poster wants to take their dog for a walk and not get drug off the side of a cliff.

I understand that a dog is not a car.  It was an analogy in that the prong isn't hurting anything by being there, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with giving someone practical advice to use in the everyday application of loose leash walk training.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Transitioning off is the end result, or at least it should be.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to state what "should" be a training goal is a great example of *your* opinion.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Rerun said:


> I have known a number of people who did not have success with the no pull harnesses. So I doubt in this case that it's just an issue of fit.


Maybe because it was utilized the same way as the prong, toss it on and hope for the best? 
Same concept, a tool to be used within a training program first teaching the desired behavior then reinforcing it. 
Think of it like a get rich scheme....if it was that easy everyone would be a millionaire. 



Rerun said:


> The dog isn't correcting itself using the method I described. The handler is issuing the correction.


You actually described both 
Either way, correction means there was a foundation there to begin with. Without the foundation there is not correction, just avoidance.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Rerun said:


> I have known a number of people who did not have success with the no pull harnesses. So I doubt in this case that it's just an issue of fit.


You could put a ribbon on a dog, or a backpack or the most restrictive thing in the world, but if you don't use your brain and train, you won't get great results. That's how you get a dog you can take for a walk. That's the tool everyone needs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

TitonsDad said:


> Titon has a BEAUTIFUL heel when it means to come and sit by my left leg. But I think I'm confusing him by also using heel in walking. Do you guys have a different word to use for "heel walking"??


I think it has something to do with the way you've taught it. "Heel" SHOULD be taught as a position - if I'm walking, heel means walk with me in heel position, if I'm standing still, it means sit at my side in heel position, if the dog is across the room, it means come to my left side, and then either sit or walk, depending on what I'm doing at the time.

Have you practiced drills from front to heel? I do this a lot from puppyhood on. I think it really helps. You can also shape heel position with a clicker, that's what I did with Halo. I do use a prong collar now, but I couldn't in her CGC class, so for those 7 weeks, both in and out of class, we worked on loose leash walking on a flat collar.

This website has great ideas, I love the Silky Leash method: Leash Walking | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle |

With Halo I mostly did #1 through #4. I also used this method:

SHAPING POLITE WALKING with a HIGH RATE OF REINFORCEMENT - PART 2 OF 3 on Vimeo

SHAPING POLITE WALKING with High Rate of Reinforcement - PART 3 of 3 on Vimeo

It takes time and patience, but these methods DO work - Halo is living proof.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

valreegrl said:


> Maybe because it was utilized the same way as the prong, toss it on and hope for the best?
> Same concept, a tool to be used within a training program first teaching the desired behavior then reinforcing it.
> Think of it like a get rich scheme....if it was that easy everyone would be a millionaire.


 You seem to have a real problem with prongs, and that is again your choice. But don't put words in my mouth of tossing anything on and hoping for the best. Absolutely ridiculous. I made no such statement, and was very clear in my recommendation - which I might remind you, I'm entitled to just as you are to yours.


valreegrl said:


> You actually described both
> Either way, correction means there was a foundation there to begin with. Without the foundation there is not correction, just avoidance.


I most certainly didn't describe both. I described what some people do and said that with a few dogs it works. I very clearly outlined what my training recommendation was for the prong. None of which described or recommended tossing anything on and hoping for the best, or punishing the dog. A correction is not punishment.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

valreegrl said:


> They are the same thing. Positive punishment is adding a consequence to an unwanted behavior. Negative reinforcement is the same thing, reinforcing what you want through consequence.


No, they aren't. Positive means adding something, negative means removing something. Reinforcement means trying to increase the likelihood of a behavior, punishment means trying to stop unwanted behavior. So using a prong (adding the prong correction) to stop pulling (stop unwanted behavior) is positive punishment. 

An example of negative reinforcement is the ecollar. Give command, add stimulus, remove stimulus when command is obeyed. The removal of the stimulus in an attempt to increase the likelihood of the behavior is negative reinforcement. 

Positive reinforcement is the well known giving a treat. Because the addition of the treat increases the likelihood of the behavior repeating. 

Negative punishment is removing a stimulus to decrease the likelihood of the behavior repeating. Dog misbehaves with a toy, so you remove the toy to decrease the likelihood of the misbehavior the next time the dog has the toy. 

4 quadrants of operant conditioning.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Rerun said:


> You seem to have a real problem with prongs, and that is again your choice. But don't put words in my mouth of tossing anything on and hoping for the best. Absolutely ridiculous. I made no such statement, and was very clear in my recommendation - which I might remind you, I'm entitled to just as you are to yours.
> 
> 
> I most certainly didn't describe both. I described what some people do and said that with a few dogs it works. I very clearly outlined what my training recommendation was for the prong. None of which described or recommended tossing anything on and hoping for the best, or punishing the dog. A correction is not punishment.


Not against prongs when used appropriately as a training tool. Of course I don't live or train with you so I can only base my opinion on what has been written. Nor am I accusing you of being wrong. Just stating an opinion from this thread. 
We sit on different sides of the fence, true. And thats fine. 

Unfortunately I see a lot of dogs trained inappropriately on prongs and well-meaning owners trying to undue the harm they caused. Dogs redirecting via aggression towards the handler after an ill-given correction then deemed PA and euthanized. It stinks, but its reality.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

The reality is - we do not disagree in our fundamental training ideas, for the most part. But I am more of a practical person, and the vast majority of people want a tool that is easy to use, works, and will make life for both the dog and themselves more enjoyable.

"Most" pet dog aren't going to redirect on the handler. Does it happen - yes. Is it the norm, no. I've worked in rescue for many many years with a variety of dogs and never once had one redirect on me with use of a prong. I'm not proposing that someone put one on and go off jerking the snot out of their dog. The average person with the average dog is going to notice a world of difference after just one use. That's all I'm saying. Sure we can advise everyone go join the nearest schutzhund group to learn sch OB or go join the nearest kennel club training facility to learn a proper focused heel. Most people just want a dog who walks nicely on the lead without dragging them around or fear reactiveness to other dogs and people. It's not too much to ask for, and IMHO they don't need to join a local group or facility to accomplish this, if they have some basic working knowledge of dog training and communication.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think it has something to do with the way you've taught it. "Heel" SHOULD be taught as a position - if I'm walking, heel means walk with me in heel position, if I'm standing still, it means sit at my side in heel position, if the dog is across the room, it means come to my left side, and then either sit or walk, depending on what I'm doing at the time.
> 
> Have you practiced drills from front to heel? I do this a lot from puppyhood on. I think it really helps. You can also shape heel position with a clicker, that's what I did with Halo. I do use a prong collar now, but I couldn't in her CGC class, so for those 7 weeks, both in and out of class, we worked on loose leash walking on a flat collar.
> 
> ...


Best post ever written to me on issues I'm having!! I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I shall start this training as soon as the boy recovers from neuter surgery he's having in the morning. 

Thank you again!!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I just learned a neat technique from Niko's trainer. Niko often has just a tiny bit of tension on the leash, not pulling exactly, but not enough slack to swing your arms when you walk.

The trainer advised I put him on a very long lead, say 15-20 feet long. The goal is to always have that lead dragging on the ground. So I must keep Niko aware of me in order to accomplish this. (To really motivate me, the trainer used the example of having to put a dollar in a jar every time that lead lifted off the ground) So I reward Niko every time he looks at me (he must come to me at my side for the treat). So far I have rarely had to use a voice command to get him to re-focus on me. I am transitioning from treats to praise now, and so far the training is holding up.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Rerun said:


> A dog should not be "pulling through" a prong. It should be popped as a correction, then loose. Stronger correction if the dog ignores it, then loose. Yes some dogs will respond to a prong as though it's self correcting, but many won't.


come let Otto walk you and tell me he doesn't pull through his prong correcting him. Sometimes he's crying but it doesn't stop him from what he wants. Hard dog like that. Yeah I could try a shock collar on him but I won't.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

SunCzarina said:


> come let Otto walk you and tell me he doesn't pull through his prong correcting him. Sometimes he's crying but it doesn't stop him from what he wants. Hard dog like that. Yeah I could try a shock collar on him but I won't.


I didn't recommend or even mention a shock collar, and it's too bad you aren't closer because I'd be happy to take him for a walk and demonstrate proper corrections.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm fully capable of giving him a correction. He's fully capable of walking nicely on leash. He does every day when there's no children around or if the children walk behind or beside him. 

However in the 100 yards from the front door of the school to the playground, I could give him 50 corrections and he'd still try to pull me if one of my children dashed past him to the playground.

I am aware it was not you who suggested the e-collar for Otto. It was Lou Castle on a different board. Haven't gone that route becuase I've had harder dogs than Otto and never used one.


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## SARAHSMITH (Sep 19, 2010)

Have one of those no pull harnesses. It got rave reviews on Amazon but even after watching videos on how to adjust it Zeppelin pulls. I am going to do what someone suggested, slowly adding distractions. He does well until he gets excited.


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