# Questions about linebreeding & bloodlines of my pup??



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi all,

I have a question about bloodlines and linebreeding. I am new to all of this so please bear with me.

In 2 weeks I will be receiving a 8 week old puppy from the breeding below. Can you tell me what dogs in the bloodlines really stand out to you & why?
Also, what is linebreeding and what does it all mean?
What do the numbers for each dog in linebreeding mean?

Sire:
VELMI DOBRY' Jago Jipo-Me pedigree information - German shepherd dog

Dam:
Gama z Jirkova dvora pedigree information - German shepherd dog


Thanks!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not an expert on working lines. 

I think your dog is heavily bred on this dog: V 2*UM CR Gero z Blatenskeho zamku
on both sire and dam.

So, I hope that this dog is something awesome in your opinion.

Also, I do not like the fact that the dam is inbred 2-1. Her sire's dam is her dam -- that is too close in my opinion. If this breeder has tons of experience and is looking for something specific that this dam provides, well, that is up to you. 

I don't know, if it is a done deal, than it is just something to take not of. Dogs in the first three generations are of interest to you. Dogs that are repeated, 3-3, 3-2, 2-2 mean that these will very much influency your puppy. Dogs repeated farther up are also more interesting than those that appear once, but sometimes a dog can add a trait that shows up in your pup that appears just once back there. 

I do not believe a 2-1 breeding is acceptable in Germany. I think they allow a 3-2. 

2-1 the grandparent is the same as the parent, so the sire or dam is bred to their sire or dam, in this case the bitch's sire is bred to his mother. Too close. It will not necessarily create problems, but it can show up problems that exist. And all dogs have some recessive genes. 

A 3-2 is a step away, it can be the sire's sire is bred to the dam's grand sire. So a grand sire to a great grand sire. It will be good to see which dogs, your dog is heavily bred on, what they are like. But there is nothing wrong with a 3-2 given we are talking about a really good dog.

Can't help with the individual dogs though.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation. I did notice that Gero was heavily bred on both sides and wonder how much of a influence he will be but it is hard to find out the dogs personality.

Now I see what the numbers mean. So anything past 3 generation may not have a real influence correct?

How do you find out more about individual dogs though to kind of get a feeling of what they bring and don't bring to the table?


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

I had two Gero kids many years ago. A friend of mine went to the Czech republic and met him in person, the picture she took of him included a muzzle.

I don't think he was a dog to mess around with, and I don't think he was in it for the "sport" of it. 

There is some info on him on the Jinopo site- Jinopo.CZ Czech, Slovak, DDR, East German K9 working dogs
Go to stud dogs, then retired stud dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Beyond three generations, if the dog is listed several times, they are worth looking at more closely. But I think to get the best impression of what your pup will be, look at the first three generations, and particularly those dogs that are listed more than once.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

@Sch....How were the 2 that you had? I just googled Gero's name and read up on him at Jinopo and other websites and from what I read he was a very serious dog hence him being in a lot of breedings. Thanks for the link to get me started.

@Selzer....Thank I will certainly take a look more closely at the 1st (3) generations. I see this is a lot of homework.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Gero was an excellent working dog and a very good dog for maintaining social aggression in his offspring. He could produce good sport and serious dogs depending on what you bred to him. PM me for some additional information about him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and Ace, I would take Cliff up on his suggeston to pm him,,he 'knows' his dogs, will tell it like it is)


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks you guys!! 
You all have been great.

Looking at dogs and learning about them has been pretty nice.
The only thing that is hard is that you usually find out about the good things about certain dogs in a pedigree but it is hard to find out about the negative. I know it helps to have the full picture when seeing what a pup could be as he gets older just the same when it comes to breeding.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

The first one was a bitch- she had moderate prey drive, but had a bad (6/6) heart murmur. It was determined by her vet to be non-congenital, just a birth defect, but she was placed in a pet home.

The second was a male, small dog, dark bi-color. Nice drive, nice grips, very nice social aggression. Obedience was like pulling teeth, no willingness and everything very flat, not what I want to spend lots of time working with.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Sch...Seems like they weren't what you expected. Heart murmur is unfortunate for sure.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Both were stunning and dark with big heads. The female would have been a very nice sport dog, with some real aggression I think, had she not had the heart murmur. The breeder did replace her, with an Art z Lipin daughter that was unfortunately a coat.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

While not an expert about breeding per say but understanding of inbreeding or (line-breeding) I would be worried about the dam have so much closed linebreeding. While a breeder is breeding for certain good genetic traits that they like. Close linebreeding can lead to also undesirable genetic recessive traits to show. These can come across as problems in mental or physical. Examples in humans would be on physical side have no sweat glands or no flap to close stomach after food enters through esophagus are 2 that I know of. For mental the house of saud which runs Saudia Arabia has had this problem where a percentage of the family is locked up in metal institutes from the outside world. 

So i would be concerned that they are starting to cause problems in the genetic material of the line with being so close.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

SchH...what do you mean by "unfortunately a coat?"

Szariks...I am curious myslef about this and will definetly have to ask the breeder about that close relationship and what made them go ahead and decide to breed.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Ace;
I don't know if you read some of my earlier postings I put out about why I did not get a pup from AlpineK9 but after see such close linebreeding it confirms to me why I would not have gotten one but that is just me. If you want some example of to close linebreeding among humans and what happens you could always reads Jon Kraukers "Under the Banner of Heaven"


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> Ace;
> I don't know if you read some of my earlier postings I put out about why I did not get a pup from AlpineK9 but after see such close linebreeding it confirms to me why I would not have gotten one but that is just me. If you want some example of to close linebreeding among humans and what happens you could always reads Jon Kraukers "Under the Banner of Heaven"


Szarikdad....Yes I did read them. The pup is actually coming from Jinopo so I will have to speak with Jiri via email to find out why he decided to breed these 2 dogs with the close linebreeding.
Thanks for the read, I will check it out!


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Ace952 said:


> SchH...what do you mean by "unfortunately a coat?"


I had paid for a puppy to title, breed, and Koer. Cannot happen with a coat. The breeders knew this puppy was a coat, and shipped her anyways.

It would be like paying top dollar to buy a cargo van because you need the space, the van you buy has serious motor issues, so the dealer feels horrible and replaces it with a Honda Civic. Still a nice car, but did not fill the original need.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Yeah, that's not "unfortunately" though--that's deliberate. 

Although soon you will be able to yet again breed survey and show a long coat.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Yeah, that's not "unfortunately" though--that's deliberate.
> 
> Although soon you will be able to yet again breed survey and show a long coat.


I did mean my "unfortunately" a bit tongue in cheek.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

SchHGSD said:


> I had paid for a puppy to title, breed, and Koer. Cannot happen with a coat. The breeders knew this puppy was a coat, and shipped her anyways.
> 
> It would be like paying top dollar to buy a cargo van because you need the space, the van you buy has serious motor issues, so the dealer feels horrible and replaces it with a Honda Civic. Still a nice car, but did not fill the original need.



Wow, yeah I'm sure you was pissed about it for sure. They had the balls to do it twice is what is shocking to me.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Now that I looked more into it, isn't 2-1 on the dam's side considered inbreeding? 
Nora was Xant's mother and she then was bred to Xant.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

We have a lady in our club that paid for a 17 month dog that was ready for Sch one and received a 6 month puppy. The lady is very nice but treats her dogs like they are people, consequently she quickly got attached. I brought to her attention that she didnot even know the pedigree of the dog as the pedigree they sent her was for the older dog and couldn't be for this pup. She brought the pup out for training last night and the movement of the back legs was seen by everyone in the club. They all came to me asking if I saw what they saw...of course I had but I had told the lady to send the pup back a week ago when she got the misrepresented dog and now she was talking about keeping the pup and accepting some money back. So I just nodded as I tried to help her with my first advice but Hey what do I know????
My point is these kind of scams are taking place all the time, BTW, this pup too goes back to a certain dog linebred on Gero. Do you think back movement is coincidence????


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Wow and she kept the puppy....
Yeah he would have went right back after he came due to the flat out lie. I guess they hoped she would be like that and just take that dog off of their hands.

Now I am fully nervous about the pup I have coming next week.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

The first time might have been an honest mistake. My vet checked her out at 9 weeks also, and we MISSED the murmur, because it had a tendency to go in time with the respiratory sounds of the lungs. Unless you were looking hard, you could miss it in a few second listen. It took long stretches of listening, or in my case, her lying on my lap, to realize when the heart went out of sync with the lungs, and then it was unmistakable.

She did not come from Jiri Novotny, however. I do wish I HAD gone through them to import a pup. Oh well, all water under the bridge.

I would not worry too much, there are many more GOOD import stories than bad.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that Jinopo and Eurosport are two of the best breeding programs in German Shepherds today. I would not be nervous about getting a dog straight from either kennel. Its when you deal with third party breeders who use their stock that you have to be more careful.JMO


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

In my experience talking dogs with Jiri Novotny, he is as honest as they come. I started years ago when it was more common to MAIL someone a letter, and I got responses that made me admire him as a breeder. Both the good and bad the dogs threw, what to watch for, what to expect.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. As a new person to all of this it is quite nerve racking when you don't know which way to go.

Yeah the 3rd party breeders are something else. I was looking to see where this dog was at. Navar Hronovsky pramen. I found him at a breeders website and I noticed that he said he had Navar and CARLY POLICIA-SLOVAKIA as studs. What seemed weird is that I know of another breeder who has Carly. So I called and asked the breeder who says he has Navar and Carly if he had any upcoming litters from either of them. He said that Navar was sold and the person that does his website hasn't updated it in a long time and was supposed to remove Navar and some others. I then asked about Carly and he said that he has him and should be a litter coming soon. The guy then says that he has some other puppies and then proceeded to tell me about them and said that his "partner" overseas has them and he can get me one. He never named his "partner" but the pups he listed were at Jinopo. He then quoted me prices for the pups (which were higher than Jinopo) and shipping (higher as well) BUT said that with the price he is "asking for that amount" but is willing to go down if the price was right. How much, I'm not sure b/c by then I figured I had heard enough. Something just didn't seem right.....


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok...I pay real close attention to detail and noticed something which for the life of me I am wondering why I didn't notice it before.

With my pups Dam (Gama z Jirkova dvora pedigree information - German shepherd dog) there is the issue of 2-1 lines breeding on NORA z JD which to me isn't line breeding but rather inbreedeing. Nora is the mother to Xant and *per PDB *she was bred to Xant which produced my pups dam, Gama.

Still following me??

I know that many have mentioned that 2-1 linebreeding is not allowed by SV so I wondered hwo this was possible (Please correct my lack of knowledge..just going by what i read off the net.) As much much respect as Jiri gets it just puzzles me why he did 2-1 linebreeding on Nora.

So just a little while ago I go and look up Gama's pedigree for the 200th time  This time I click on her pedigree and see the .pdf of her papers. I finally see it!!

It has Gama's mother being Galina and _*NOT*_ Nora.
Of course that changes everything when looking at the pedigree....

Let me know what you guys think.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Ace952 said:


> I know that many have mentioned that 2-1 linebreeding is not allowed by SV so I wondered hwo this was possible (Please correct my lack of knowledge..just going by what i read off the net.) As much much respect as Jiri gets it just puzzles me why he did 2-1 linebreeding on Nora.


It is not allowed by the SV. But the SV controls ONE country in Europe, Germany. Any other country can have different rules, like the Czech Republic or Slovakia.

If you question why, I would e-mail and ask. He may have had a very good reason for doing it, he may not have.

I looked at a puppy years ago that the mother was linebred 2-2 on Mink. SG Citty vom Haus Ming pedigree information - German shepherd dog

I did not get a puppy from this litter, but I think someone else on this board did?

If you actually go through and figure out the inbreeding co-efficient on some of these breedings, you might be surprised at how low it actually is.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I didn't ask b/c I figured they would say, "we know the dogs and feel that this was ok, yada yada yada."

I did send a email since I figured it out and it looks like I was correct and PDB had the wrong info in it. It is now fixed and of course there is significant changes in the bloodlines.

Gama z Jirkova dvora pedigree information - German shepherd dog


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

For me I would more than ask a breeder why they did such a close linebreeding. I would also asked for the dam if they know the current status of the grandparents and there health. Also if they have passed what did they pass from and any health issues they had through out life. I would also ask the same from the parents also. So I would then have knowledge of 6 dogs and what happened to them. If the answers I got were less than satisfactory and set off my BS meter. Than I would find a way to back out of the deal


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> For me I would more than ask a breeder why they did such a close linebreeding. I would also asked for the dam if they know the current status of the grandparents and there health. Also if they have passed what did they pass from and any health issues they had through out life. I would also ask the same from the parents also. So I would then have knowledge of 6 dogs and what happened to them. If the answers I got were less than satisfactory and set off my BS meter. Than I would find a way to back out of the deal


The pedigree in PDB was incorrect when compared to the Dam's pedigree on Jinopo's website where you can pull up the PDF of her papers. They have now fixed it on PDB.

I think it was a simple eroor that could have been fixed a long time ago when I sent a email to Hans trying to learn more about the Sire and Dam since I wanted to learn more about them and the dogs in their pedigree. I never got a reply to my email hence me making this thread.

Sorry to waste eveyone's time.


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