# German Police ditching GSDs for Malies...



## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Police ditching the German Shepherd for Belgian breed - The Local


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

They seem to have done their homework. I didn't realize that Malinois are sturdier than GSDs... or were better sniffers. Interesting if true.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

So are a lot of forces in the USA. My friends a trainer and he said he would never have a GSD again. I wonder if they are healthier also.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I have never seen a Mali do something i haven't seen a GSD do, or vice versa. I wonder why people are having such a hard time finding GSD's that work, because everyone i've ever trained with, that was beyond their first dog, has had nice working GSD's. I've met lots of nice Mali's too, but jeez, if people can't find a GSD that works nicely, try looking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Back arrow key
Back arrow key!

Before I show off my ignorance of malinois and police work.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Not hard to find GSDs who can work. But it is hard to find them in quantities needed to meet the demand or the quantities of Mals who can work. A higher percentage of the Mal population has working ability than does the percentage of the GSD population. So one has to sort through a lot more GSDs to find the worker than one does Mals.

Mals are also as a whole less prone to health problems and injuries, giving them longer working lives.

And the most bottom line of all, Mals are a lot cheaper than GSDs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Now this:
"Belgian Shepherds can also be used as sniffer dogs, unlike German Shepherds"
is a load of


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> And the most bottom line of all, Mals are a lot cheaper than GSDs.


For now. I've already heard that the price is starting to creep up a bit, but I haven't actually seen that. The agency that I'm retired from is going to be getting 2 Mali's in the spring for K9 use. I'm sure price had some part in it, but it was mostly because they were more available.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Less of a gamble and cheaper


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

It is a matter of supply and demand. The majority of dogs used by the military and LE today are imported. I'm speaking of dogs that are used for dual purpose, patrol/detector of some sort. The fact is, the venerable GSD is not available in the numbers needed. Yes, there are some good GSD's but you have to look hard to find them. Whether we want to believe it or not, the GSD of today is not the GSD of years ago. They've been bred to be calmer, less drivey, with a completely different look than just a generation ago. They've been inbred, poor bred to maintain numbers, sacrificing quality, healthy dogs. It's not that the Mal can do things the GSD couldn't. It's the fact they are available in the numbers required. So far, we don't see the incidence of spondylosis and dysplasia that are so prominent in the GSD breed. They (the mal) also seem to have a slightly longer working life. Candidates for dual purpose training are ranging from 6 to 8 k. When you are paying that kind of money you really want to make sure you are getting the most for your money. Bottom line, Mals and Dutchies are available in the numbers needed. The GSD is not.

DFrost


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

I agree Chris, GSDs are great for detection and tracking. I dont see a big difference in price when looking at trained dogs. Maybe for pups or green dogs.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

DFrost said:


> sure you are getting the most for your money. Bottom line, Mals and Dutchies are available in the numbers needed. The GSD is not.DFrost


Also, added to this is that the prices for a GSD are higher due to the demand for them by the military (both German and US) and private protection companies. However, they eventually will run into the same problem with the increase of demand for the Mals. 

Here is the link for those of you who read German

Polizeihunde: Hat der Schäferhund bald ausgeschnüffelt? - Aus aller Welt - FOCUS Online - Nachrichten


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

The more popular Mali's become, the more they will fall into the same traps that the GSD has.

Conversely, the less popular the GSD becomes, the more those of us who really love the breed will be able steer it back to where it needs to be.

Also, I don't think the GSD will ever be totally supplanted. Some police forces have moved to S&W M&Ps, others have stuck with Glocks. There is room for more than one breed in this role, and each has its place and things it excels at...


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DFrost said:


> Whether we want to believe it or not, the GSD of today is not the GSD of years ago. They've been bred to be calmer, less drivey, with a completely different look than just a generation ago. They've been inbred, poor bred to maintain numbers, sacrificing quality, healthy dogs.


So true, and the reason it's sometimes difficult to remain civil with those who don't understand what's wrong with breeding "just for pets."


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

BR870 said:


> The more popular Mali's become, the more they will fall into the same traps that the GSD has.
> 
> Conversely, the less popular the GSD becomes, the more those of us who really love the breed will be able steer it back to where it needs to be.
> 
> Also, I don't think the GSD will ever be totally supplanted. Some police forces have moved to S&W M&Ps, others have stuck with Glocks. There is room for more than one breed in this role, and each has its place and things it excels at...


While there is always that possibility, it won't happen as easily as it did with the GSD. One reason is the culture of breeding and training in Europe is a lot different than ours (US). There are a lot less breeders that worry about "pet quality" dogs in Europe, relative the breeds we are discussion. I agree the GSD will never be totally supplanted. There are GSD's available. Just not in the numbers needed. There will always be room for more than one breed. That "room" though is still driven by availability, quality and price. 

DFrost


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would say the breeding and culture of the breeding of the 2 breeds is very different, even within Europe. The vast majority of Mals are still bred as working dogs. The vast majority of GSDs bred across the world, including in Germany itself, are not. The biggest demand for GSDs coming out of Europe is the international pet and status symbol market. With both breeds, their production in large quantities is very much driven by the buying market, but those markets are very different from one another.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> I would say the breeding and culture of the breeding of the 2 breeds is very different, even within Europe. The vast majority of Mals are still bred as working dogs. The vast majority of GSDs bred across the world, including in Germany itself, are not. .


Exactly.

DFrost


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Also consider, in regards to the standard public and a pet dog, that although many of us think Malinois are gorgeous dogs and adorable puppies (what's not to love?), many in the average public don't find them to be all that attractive, and most think they are german shepherds or shepherd mixes.

Personally speaking, I find their temperament, drive, health, smaller more compact size, shorter almost non shedding coat, energy, intelligence, to far exceed any trait of any GSD I've ever known or owned.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

DFrost said:


> While there is always that possibility, it won't happen as easily as it did with the GSD. One reason is the culture of breeding and training in Europe is a lot different than ours (US). There are a lot less breeders that worry about "pet quality" dogs in Europe, relative the breeds we are discussion. I agree the GSD will never be totally supplanted. There are GSD's available. Just not in the numbers needed. There will always be room for more than one breed. That "room" though is still driven by availability, quality and price.
> 
> DFrost


Not disagreeing, but its inevitable that as demand increases so does price and usually quality suffers. Even with a differing European breeding mentality, I still think the breed will be hurt by its success...

Things fall prey to their own popularity... Its practically an immutable law of the universe.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Also consider, in regards to the standard public and a pet dog, that although many of us think Malinois are gorgeous dogs and adorable puppies (what's not to love?), many in the average public don't find them to be all that attractive, and most think they are german shepherds or shepherd mixes.
> 
> .


I'm an "old time" dog trainer. My breed of preference is the GSD. I don't think the Mal is a bit good looking. As trainer however, I certainly have to appreciate their work ethic. They are machines. You can also see the number of Mal rescues increasing in numbers and size. People buy them, then realize, they just don't make that good a pet. What's worse, the ones they buy are generally did not have the behaviors suitable for police work. I've purchased several over the past few years. I call them; malagator, malinuts, GSD's on acid, Malinoids and a few words that would get in trouble for writing, ha ha.

DFrost


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

DFrost said:


> I don't think the Mal is a bit good looking.


I dissagree!!!! :angryfire:


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Chuckle, chuckle. I would tell one of my handlers; what kind of shampoo are you using. That dog looks a little fluffy.

DFrost


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

All of the above adds up to practical matters.
More Mals for the buck.
More miles for the buck.
Probably less hair for the buck.
Plus all of those lines !!! ASL, WGL WL etc and so on
A Mal is a Mal is a Mal.
hhmmmm, maybe I shoulda got a Mal


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Not a new idea. 

The founding variety of the Belgian Shepherds, the Laekenois, was used extensively as a guard dog, and a police dog in Belgium. They were so well used during the first and second world wars, that they almost became extinct. 
















From the ABLA club website.

The Belgian Groenendael was also widely used as a police dog, both in Europe and in New York city. 








From the book "Police Dog in America 1915"


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

thats interesting. Personally, i'm not a huge fan of mals myself but i do have respect for their desire to work and just go go go at a task. If they're sturdier, then so be it. I do appreciate the fact that other police forces arent totally phasing out GSDs altogether and instead are choosing to use a variety of breeds. I know i'm seeing a great deal more dutchies and mals working than i am GSDs but i'm glad to know there are still GSDs out there working. I know the PD back home, one of the handlers refuses anything but a GSD and the PD is okay with it because the guy has the knowledge to know what to look for and how to train to get the absolute most from his dog. All about preference and numbers available.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

I never even heard of a Malinois until a couple of years ago. I was at GSD training club and a guy there had one. It was a nice looking dog and very well behaved. The owner was glad to tell me all about them.

I wouldn't mind owning one !


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I'd say one advantage the Belgian breeds have over GSDs is that they tend to remain very sound into old age. They aren't prone to the sort of crippling arthritis that many GSDs tend to develop as they age. And their average life expectancy is longer (it isn't all that uncommon for Belgians to live into their middle or upper teens), meaning that a 9 year old Belgian is generally not equivalent to a 9 year old GSD. Having lived with both GSDs and Belgians, the difference in aging is very obvious. My 9 year old Belgian can do everything just the same as he could do at 3. My 9 year old GSD could still run agility but only at 16" and was starting to have arthritis issues. She was still quite fast but it was obvious that her time as an agility was coming to a close. Someone is running a 13+ year old Mal in agility in my area and the dog is still super fast.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Remember only in the US are they a separate breed from all the Belgian lines, so if you check you will see France has for years used the long coated black variety(Groenendahl) in the police/rescue teams. That all varieties can be interbred and even without inter variety breeding all have the potential to throw other varieties. 

They are faster, and lighter, making them more agile for SAR work, with a lot of early socializing they are amazing dogs but they need that socializing. They react very fast and so need to learn what is appropriate to react to. Also with their lighter weight they are less prone to skeletal issues, and so far have fewer health problems. 

There are also very few litters comparitively. In the US last year according to a Belgian forum, there were 60 litters of Belgian Sheepdogs, the black variety..only 60!!!! Their biggest concern is having enough for genetic diversity.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

ach du lieber!


Read some of the comments posted at the bottom of the OPs linked article....some funny stuff.

I like the one about the German Shepherds went from being a pack to a committee, got lazy and too involved in paperwork..... 

I also found it interesting that they have a couple of mutts, 1 boxer and 1 rottie on the force too.

This is just one region of Germany and they will experiment with and use other breeds, natürlich, but not to the exclusion of their beloved _schaeferhund_. :wub: :wub:


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think there has be a cultural shift in LE around the world. Malis and dutchies are the hip dogs of the moment. I hear so many derogatory comments about the German Shepherds from the Mali crowd, its almost annoying. With all the high drive Czech, Slavic and Dutch KNPV line shepherds being bred right now, I have a hard time believing there are not enough quality working line German Shepherds to meet the needs of LE.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

robk said:


> With all the high drive Czech, Slavic and Dutch KNPV line shepherds being bred right now, I have a hard time believing there are not enough quality working line German Shepherds to meet the needs of LE.



That may well be. Fact is, the vendors have Mals. As a trainer, I want a dog that works. While I may have my personal favorites, that doesn't mean much when it comes to buying dogs to train. I have to buy what's available. Currently that is the Mal and Dutchie. Yes, the occasional shepherd is available, I had two in this class, but the majority of what is available is the mal and the dutch.

DFrost


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