# Help.... How to prevent submissive urination



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

So, a while back I had a border collie that would pee whenever she met a new person, got in trouble, was too excited, etc. etc. etc.... And it was terribly frustrating. We just had to have people ignore her so that she wouldn't pee everywhere, and even then, she still would sometimes. I've been seeing some threads saying that this is called "submissive urination," but what I really want to know is if there is a way to prevent this? We are bringing home our GSD soon, and it seems like some of them can have the same issue. Do they pee because they are over-stimulated? Should we make meeting new people a very low-key experience? I just don't want to deal with the pee everywhere again! Also, does anybody have any tricks for building a puppy's self-confidence? I've heard that low self-confidence can lead to submissive urination as well.

Thank you! Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don't know if there is a way to prevent submissive urination. I think alot of puppies pee when they're excited... most grow out of it, some don't. I think the best thing you can do is not make a big deal out of it if it happens. Drawing attention to it will make it worse. 

If you're worried about your new pup peeing when meeting new people, try introducing them outside where a little pee won't be as big of a deal. Also, teach your puppy to pee on command, and have your pup pee before someone comes to your house. Make a huge deal about them peeing on command. Give treats and praise. Best of luck!


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Be pretty low key on meeting and greeting the puppy and anyone who you introduce the puppy too needs to be briefed to do the same. Ideally potty break the dog before such meetings.

If your puppy is social and easy going but has a pattern of excited or submissive urination with strangers keep the new people meetings to a minimum to prevent the dog from classically conditioning into submissive urination being a thing to do during meetings.

If it happens don't make a big deal of it punish it or even give attention to it should the dog do it. Usually they grow out of it by 8-9 months if you don't create a pattern of behavior by allowing it to happen.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Usually they grow out of it by 8-9 months if you don't create a pattern of behavior by allowing it to happen.


So, if they do urinate when meeting new people, minimize exposure to new people, or just minimize the interaction with new people when they come around?

I definitely don't want another "submissive urinator."


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Minimize interaction to new people. Find their threshold and keep new people out of it.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dena LOVED people, and would get very excited when meeting people. I didn't minimize her exposure to them, I just made sure she didn't pee on their shoes when we were out and about. When people came over we had her meet them outside, and then brought her in after she'd emptied out. 

She eventually outgrew it. I've never heard of a dog that DIDN'T outgrow it.


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Having had a sensitive dog that you've worked with in the past is going to be a HUGE help to you, more than you realize! You already understand the things that set it off, how to have people handle it, how you need to ignore it, etc. SO much easier than if it were your first go around.

The best part of having your puppy with this knowledge, now, is that you're starting fresh. Your dog's socialization and confidence are in your hands to mold. I feel like once you've dealt with a problem with a dog, you notice the signs leading up to it much sooner. So you see those little, subtle things that make you think, "Hmm... that posturing, with someone leaning over, used to lead straight to peeing..." so you can switch things up before it even becomes an issue.

You're going to do wonderfully. 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> She eventually outgrew it. I've never heard of a dog that DIDN'T outgrow it.


Unfortunately, I've known plenty of dogs who didn't just naturally outgrow it. It all depends on whether the person understands the triggers and that it's involuntary, I think. Our own husky came to use with the problem when he was already 5 years old. I've also worked with a LOT of adult dogs who still do it. MOST of them are smaller dogs, so they're easily intimidated by people hovering over them. But I'd say the common thread with the dogs is that they have owners who don't understand what's going on. They get upset and yell at the dog, or they talk about how the dog still isn't house broken when it really just doesn't have control over the peeing. If you get mad at the dog, or try to correct the dog, or even if you keep up the behavior by "encouraging" it (i.e. giving the dog tons of affection/attention for extreme submissive signals, or if YOU constantly come on too strong), the problem doesn't go away. If you understand it, though, and both ignore it and encourage more confident posturing and behavior, THEN it seems like they "just grow out of it."


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I rescued one that was still doing it at 2 y.o., and she did it her whole life -- there seems to be a point where it becomes hard wired in their brains. It can be minimized pretty easily, and then it becomes less and less frequent.

This particular dog telegraphed when she was in "that" mood when we came home through her ear position. It only happened once in a blue moon, but we learned to read her ears. There was a certain position out to the side -- sort of like a cow -- that was her signal that she was feeling submissive and would pee if we talked to or touched her. So we would ignore her -- we would not greet her _at all _if we came home and saw "those ears."

We instead walked straight out to the backyard, and told her in a calm voice to "potty." She'd go relieve herself, and then we would greet her -- she'd gotten it out of her system, so she was fine then, and back to being her usual happy self. It just became part of our routine with that dog, when we saw "those ears."


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There can be a point where it becomes classically conditioned. You can still fix it but it is much harder. I usually do it by raising their thresholds. I won't go into how. It can also be counter conditioned with food at threshold but that takes a lot longer. It is doable though. I've never had a case of it I couldn't fix in 4 weeks or less.


----------



## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Dena LOVED people, and would get very excited when meeting people. I didn't minimize her exposure to them, I just made sure she didn't pee on their shoes when we were out and about. When people came over we had her meet them outside, and then brought her in after she'd emptied out.
> 
> She eventually outgrew it. I've never heard of a dog that DIDN'T outgrow it.


This is how we did it too!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wolfenstein said:


> Unfortunately, I've known plenty of dogs who didn't just naturally outgrow it. It all depends on whether the person understands the triggers and that it's involuntary, I think. Our own husky came to use with the problem when he was already 5 years old. I've also worked with a LOT of adult dogs who still do it. MOST of them are smaller dogs, so they're easily intimidated by people hovering over them. But I'd say the common thread with the dogs is that they have owners who don't understand what's going on. They get upset and yell at the dog, or they talk about how the dog still isn't house broken when it really just doesn't have control over the peeing. If you get mad at the dog, or try to correct the dog, or even if you keep up the behavior by "encouraging" it (i.e. giving the dog tons of affection/attention for extreme submissive signals, or if YOU constantly come on too strong), the problem doesn't go away. If you understand it, though, and both ignore it and encourage more confident posturing and behavior, THEN it seems like they "just grow out of it."


Yeah, I can see how that could happen. I was really just thinking about when people come on the board with this question and have gotten good advice about keeping greetings low key, and not scolding the dog or reinforcing the urination in some way, so they're doing all the right things. I should have been more clear, something like: "handled properly, the puppy should outgrow it" rather than implying that it will magically go away on its own. 

Handled improperly, all bets are off! And small dogs, yeah. Some little breeds seem to be notoriously difficult to housebreak, which is why I don't have small dogs.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

The border collie lives at my parents home and she still does it. We got her when she was older, and she has done it all of her life. Last night, of course right after I posted the thread, we had a guest come over. I asked him to sit down on the floor, not to stand over her, and to pet under her chin instead of reaching over her head. Well, she still peed, but less than before. Instead of making a big deal out of it, I just put her outside and cleaned up the pee. It frustrates me, but I know that she doesn't mean to do it. I'll probably just have her greet people outside and let her calm down about the whole scenario. No matter how long I ask people to ignore her so that she can settle in, as soon as they reach for her, she pees. She also has a very characteristic stance when I know she's going to do it, but I don't want to yell and scare her (which would cause peeing) and the guests never know to abort mission at that point. Sigh. We will just keep working. It would be helpful if all guests researched dogs extensively before coming over. Ha!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think management is going to be your friend in this case, lexiz. Since you know she's going to do it, and people are not always going to follow your instructions about not reaching for her, I'd just start making sure they greet her outdoors first. At least then the mess is outside instead of in your house.


----------



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think management is going to be your friend in this case, lexiz. Since you know she's going to do it, and people are not always going to follow your instructions about not reaching for her, I'd just start making sure they greet her outdoors first. At least then the mess is outside instead of in your house.


What should I do if she pees more than once when guests are around? Usually, I don't think that she gets it all out on the first go. I don't want to have to leave her outside the whole time either, because it's good for her to socialize. When she doesn't socialize, she gets a little anxious with strangers.


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Personally, I would tell people to 100% ignore her. Pretend she's a ghost and just come in and do whatever else they would normally do. Don't even LOOK at her, much less make eye contact. Even greeting on the floor, for some dogs just the attention alone is too much to handle. If you have people there that you can trust to read dogs well, let them know that the ONLY time they are EVER allowed to give attention is for confident body language. You're looking for ears that are up, no hunching, no tucked tail, no side eye, and most importantly, ONLY if the dog actually initiates contact. Even an outstretched arm can be a trigger for a dog that's really bad about it.

Another thing to watch for (that I think you're doing, but just mentioning it) is you getting frustrated about it, even if you don't actually say anything to the dog. Sometimes we throw out our OWN signals that we're stressed when we have to go clean pee for the millionth time, and the dog picks up on that. Since they don't even realize that they peed, they just figure something about the scenario (generally, greeting people) is something to get stressed about. It's a vicious cycle.

Working on a really positive "Come" can be a huge help, too. We did that with our dog. Make sure she knows you have something really worthwhile, and get her excited about it. Then call her over and reward her for that CONFIDENT behavior. She might start out a bit timid about it, but it should improve rather quickly if it's something that she really loves.

Everything is all a matter of getting REALLY vigilant about body language. It's like a really subtle dance that you need to develop a good eye for so you can defuse the situation before going to far. Watching videos explaining body language (as opposed to just seeing pictures) is a huge help with this, if you feel like you're having trouble. It's just something you have to learn over time.


----------

