# Puppy socialization class gone wrong



## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

I really need to vent this as I did on my Facebook.

Every Monday evening I take my now 5 month old GSD to puppy socialization class and I have since she was 8 weeks old.

She has always loved the class and has a great time wrestling and playing with the other puppies.

So last night we went to the 6 pm class bc the past 2 weeks Lucie was the only one who showed to the 7pm class and the trainer told us to come at 6. So I got my kids and Lucie ready and off we went. Class was going on Lucie made friends with a pitbull and really wanted to play with the golden retriever. 

This is when I should've realized there was a problem. The owner of the golden kept following behind Lucie when she would chase after him. Everytime Lucie would start to pull and wrestle with the golden the owner would collar Lucie and tell her to be nice. I had politely told the woman Lucie wasn't hurting her puppy they're just playing. But the Golden's owner continues her behavior everytime Lucie came near her puppy. Please know Lucie was in no way hurting her puppy as I would've stepped in if that was the case. 

My son and I were filling water dishes for the dogs when I looked over and this woman had a hold of Lucie's collar again and her puppy was at her feet and she slapped my Lucie I asked her nicely not to slap my dog and before I could reach Lucie this woman slapped her a second time and I screamed at her for slapping Lucie. I yelled at the trainer that this woman had just slapped my dog and I was leaving. I was shaking from the anger I felt of this woman putting her hands on my Lucie girl.

I demanded the girls at the counter refund my money for the class and they did and apologized. One of them grabbed a supervisor and asked me to wait while they figured out what happened. When the supervisor came back she said the woman apologized and they advised her that they don't allow the abuse of animals. They actually told me I could go back to the class which I told them I wasn't subjecting Lucie to that ever again. That could've potentially given her a bad socialization experience. I was shocked that the woman who slapped Lucie wasn't asked to leave and it was us who left.

They claim they would have someone call me today to discuss what happened. But I feel there isn't much to discuss that woman should be banned for the mistreatment of Lucie. And someone should call the humane society as who knows what she does to her puppy. Was I wrong for losing my temper and screaming?? Should I even consider taking her back there?? 

I feel my actions were justified. As Lucie is one of my children not just some dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't fault you for losing it. An ex of my daughter slapped Jax a few weeks ago. For no reason at all. Not a hard slap but still a slap. I lost it too.

WHO does this crap?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Why weren't you preventing your dog from playing with her dog...sorry, you were in the wrong the whole time. The woman should have never had the opportunity to slap your dog because YOU should've been there redirecting your dog away from her dog.

It was clear she wasn't comfortable with the way YOUR dog was playing with her dog. And the fact is that you saw that and didn't do anything about it. It doesn't matter if your dog wasn't hurting her dog...people set different boundaries for their dogs and you shouldn't allow your dog to cross them once you see what they are. Trainer seems inept too because they didn't say something to you about it either.

Even if your puppy wasn't hurting her puppy, your dog is setting an example for that dog and is being dominant and rough. How would you feel if my 85lbs GSD was on top of your puppy "playing" and not hurting it? You lifted him once, twice, told him no, but I just stood there and didn't do anything to prevent it again?

You seem to be focused on the slap...that's your prerogative. I would've had to physically correct your dog as well in that situation since YOU weren't doing anything about it. Would a harder yank on the flat collar been a better correction in your eyes? Clearly your dog wasn't getting the message.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't fault you for screaming at the woman either. That is ridiculous behavior on her part. 

I do think you probably should have stepped in earlier when the woman was grabbing Lucie's collar. I don't allow anyone to touch my pups without my permission. Something to remember for the future. 

Your pup doesn't have to be manhandled to get good socialization experiences with people, so I tend to nip any unsanctioned handling in the bud and only allow very closely supervised and controlled physical interaction between my pup and any other person.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Why weren't you preventing your dog from playing with her dog...sorry, you were in the wrong the whole time. The woman should have never had the opportunity to slap your dog because YOU should've been there redirecting your dog away from her dog.
> 
> It was clear she wasn't comfortable with the way YOUR dog was playing with her dog. And the fact is that you saw that and didn't do anything about it. It doesn't matter if your dog wasn't hurting her dog...people set different boundaries for their dogs and you shouldn't allow your dog to cross them once you see what they are. Trainer seems inept too because they didn't say something to you about it either.
> 
> ...



I agree totally.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Going to reserve judgement because I didnt see what happened. I will say this though. If i have groups of puppies in board and train and one gets over aggressive with another and starts to ruin the experience of the other i will step in with a physical correction strong enough to stop the behavior, and if necessary repeat it with gradually stronger corrections until the puppy cools it. It doesn't ruin them. If done right and consistently it teaches them how to interact in a proper way instead of the usual lord of the flies puppy free for all you see at a lot of places. 

Did she go overboard? Maybe. Should you have seen your puppy was doing things that bothered another person and stepped in to stop it instead of insisting your judgement was the right one? Probably. Dunno how much sympathy i have for you.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Wow, I'm really surprised at these responses. Maybe she should of been watching her pup better but I'm guessing the trainer was in the room with the pups, you know, the person in charge of the class. Puppy classes are for owners and pups to learn. A physical slap on any dog is totally unacceptable, whether it's your own or someone else's. I thought the world had moved on from that style of correction.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't tolerate anyone harming my animals, slap, spank, yank, whatever, you do it to my dog, I do it to you.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DobbyDad said:


> I agree totally.



Me too. And I would like to add that the person conducting the class should have been all over it as well. I took Dude to a class in Carson where it was absolute chaos. I wound up leashing him and standing from the side and watching because the trainer wasn't ensuring the people watched their dogs. It seemed more like a human socialization while the dogs did whatever they wanted. 

Am taking him to a different class now where the trainer is more on top of things... However I never take my eyes off him for even a second, I don't dare let him have any bad experiences!!!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

The situation was mishandled all around. You should have been on top of your dog like the golden retriever's was and she should not have slapped your dog but contacted the trainer who should have been on top of both of you before this all got out of hand. 

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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You handled it way better then I would have. I got angry reading your post.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't agree with her slapping your dog. I could never imagine hitting my dog let alone someone elses dog.

However, I think you were in the wrong here. The puppy should have been with you at all times. The lady obviously didn't want your puppy with hers, whether your puppy wasn't hurting it or not. And you ignored her by letting your puppy continue. 


Is the whole class just for playing or do you do training?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Amurphy26 said:


> Wow, I'm really surprised at these responses. Maybe she should of been watching her pup better but I'm guessing the trainer was in the room with the pups, you know, the person in charge of the class. Puppy classes are for owners and pups to learn. A physical slap on any dog is totally unacceptable, whether it's your own or someone else's. I thought the world had moved on from that style of correction.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What kind of correction would you give the dog? One that isn't yours, and is constantly jumping on your dog while the owner does nothing because the dog isn't "hurting" your dog?

I think people are taking OP's slap as a destruction of the dog that sent it flying 10 feet across the room. I imagine this lady just gave the dog a smack, one that a) distracted it and b) made it figure out that it needs to stop what its doing.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

All I know is there are 2 stories here. I am sorry that the OP felt wronged and I can't say I wouldn't be peeved if someone smacked my dog. That's like someone smacking someone else's child at the park.. just not ok. 

On the other hand, from the other woman's perspective, she may have been weary of your dog because of past experiences or inexperience with playing styles, either way, OP imagine if a dog was playing with your dog and for whatever reason didn't like how the other dog interacted. I'm sure you would be upset at the other owner for not getting their dog from yours. I'm not sayign you would smack it, but I'm sure you would hold it until she came over or talked to the trainer. 

and for the record, I'm with Baillif on this one in regards to physical punishment.. there's excessive, then there's effective. Sometimes it is ok to swat your pup on the butt against popular belief (Allow the flood gates to be opened and the attacks begin).


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Where was the trainer in all of this? They should have been monitoring the play, and not letting the people in the class do it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> The situation was mishandled all around. You should have been on top of your dog like the golden retriever's was and she should not have slapped your dog but contacted the trainer who should have been on top of both of you before this all got out of hand.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Pretty much this, plenty of blame to go around. The Golden owner was over the top but she was protecting her dog!

Not saying she took the correct course of action but had the OP been as zealous as the Golden owner...the dog would not have been slapped!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

stmcfred said:


> I don't agree with her slapping your dog. I could never imagine hitting my dog let alone someone elses dog.
> 
> However, I think you were in the wrong here. The puppy should have been with you at all times. The lady obviously didn't want your puppy with hers, whether your puppy wasn't hurting it or not. And you ignored her by letting your puppy continue.
> 
> ...


Also, you don't have a good trainer. She should have intervened as soon as she saw that the Golden's owner was uncomfortable, stop the entire class and use it as a teaching moment for everyone. Socialization is not just turning puppies loose and ignore everything else, including their owners.
I would go back to that class to help your pup recover, if she was affected, and that would be the last of it (if it were me).
I skip puppy soc. classes because they learn that other people are food dispensers, the risk of being exposed to bullies or bully themselves. I do the early soc. myself with familiar safe dogs and take them to the basics when they are about 4 months old. Has always worked well.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I'm sorry someone slapped your dog.

I had an unhappy experience the first night in puppy kindergarten where my puppy was jumped by another dog and my boy was screaming. The trainer said my dog had a bad temperament. My puppy was fine after the dogs were leashed. It felt like a bad dog park. I'm soooo grateful for the info on this site.

I decided no more "classes" for now. I ordered 4 Leerburg DVDs and everything on CU (Control Unleashed) and started training my dog myself. Later I will investigate private lessons with a trainer that works for me and my dog. I learned that it is MY responsibility to oversee what happens to my dog.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

martemchik said:


> What kind of correction would you give the dog? One that isn't yours, and is constantly jumping on your dog while the owner does nothing because the dog isn't "hurting" your dog?
> 
> I think people are taking OP's slap as a destruction of the dog that sent it flying 10 feet across the room. I imagine this lady just gave the dog a smack, one that a) distracted it and b) made it figure out that it needs to stop what its doing.



I have been in both sides of that situation and have never raised a hand to a dog, whether it's as a distraction or not. She grabbed the dogs collar before slapping it, she was obviously able to stop it without slapping it. If I was the goldies owner I would of removed my dog earlier and spoken to the trainer. There was no mention of the OPs pup being aggressive and there was absolutely no need for a slap of any sort.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Moriah said:


> I'm sorry someone slapped your dog.
> 
> I had an unhappy experience the first night in puppy kindergarten where my puppy was jumped by another dog and my boy was screaming. The trainer said my dog had a bad temperament. My puppy was fine after the dogs were leashed. It felt like a bad dog park. I'm soooo grateful for the info on this site.
> 
> I decided no more "classes" for now. I ordered 4 Leerburg DVDs and everything on CU (Control Unleashed) and started training my dog myself. Later I will investigate private lessons with a trainer that works for me and my dog. I learned that it is MY responsibility to oversee what happens to my dog.


Wow sorry about the bad experience! 

Some more info and Leerburg links here in post 8 :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

Be sure and see"Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" I like that one!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

View points tend to be skewed in these situations.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> Also, you don't have a good trainer. She should have intervened as soon as she saw that the Golden's owner was uncomfortable, stop the entire class and use it as a teaching moment for everyone. Socialization is not just turning puppies loose and ignore everything else, including their owners.
> I would go back to that class to help your pup recover, if she was affected, and that would be the last of it (if it were me).
> I skip puppy soc. classes because they learn that other people are food dispensers, the risk of being exposed to bullies or bully themselves. I do the early soc. myself with familiar safe dogs and take them to the basics when they are about 4 months old. Has always worked well.


I completely agree with all of this.

As a trainer of classes JUST like this, if a dog starts doing this to another, I separate instantly and let the dogs calm down and explain escalation, dog dynamics, what showed me one wasn't enjoying it, etc. 

AND/OR if an owner is concerned - I will say yes, you have a reason to be concerned (even if the dog isn't being harmed physically) and this is what we are going to do to fix it/redirect or NO, you don't have a reason to be concerned because _____.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Amurphy26 said:


> I have been in both sides of that situation and have never raised a hand to a dog, whether it's as a distraction or not. She grabbed the dogs collar before slapping it, she was obviously able to stop it without slapping it. If I was the goldies owner I would of removed my dog earlier and spoken to the trainer. There was no mention of the OPs pup being aggressive and there was absolutely no need for a slap of any sort.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She grabbed the collar and stopped it. The dog started again. She did it again, no one else stepped in. Of course there is no mention of OP's dog being aggressive...OP is the one posting about their angel of a dog, would they really post that their dog was being aggressive when all these types of posts do is look for a rallying of the troops against the person that isn't here to share their side of the story...

So...you paid for a class. There is a dog in there "attacking" your dog. That owner is off on the other side of the room somewhere...and you'd remove your dog? Right...makes sense.

I'm not saying the slap was okay...I wouldn't slap the dog either. But people react differently to these types of situations. Read some of the "off-leash dog runs up to my dog on a walk" threads...you'll see how much people are willing to do before they even know if the dog is friendly or not. The pepper spray, sticks, knives, guns get brought out faster than you'd imagine.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Ummm. OK. I'll step up then.*



LaRen616 said:


> I don't tolerate anyone harming my animals, slap, spank, yank, whatever, you do it to my dog, I do it to you.


Took my 10 week old GSD to dog social and a well-known irresponsible owner showed up with two dogs, off leash, that almost immediately targeted my puppy and tried to chew him up. I kicked the nearest one, twice infuriating the owner's 20'ish son who was nearby. He threatened me.

Deputies called. He got two tickets, one for unleashed dogs and another for a terrorist threat.

He was lucky, really. I carry concealed and have a neck that's held together with steel plates and screws. I'd literally fear for my life if someone assaulted me. I'd shoot.

Know when your dog's in the wrong and do what you must to keep your dog from harming others...or else...you could be really hurt...or killed if you over-react.

LF


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Plus it's just common courtesy to control your dog if someone else is bothered by the interaction regardless of whether or not you think that concern is valid.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Yes, the OP's dog could have been in the wrong, maybe the puppy was being too pushy and the OP didn't realize it because it is her puppy.

I can see that.

I can also see people being over protective of their puppy and being defensive and mistaking play for aggressive behavior. 

I have seen people correct dogs when there is no need to correct them and I have seen people act like their dog isn't doing anything wrong when it really is.

The problem I have here is that she slapped the OP's dog not once but twice. Don't smack someone else's dog, period, it's not your dog. If the behavior of that puppy is bothering you then you need to either tell the trainer or tell the owner of the puppy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

She told the owner who was the OP. OP dismissed her concerns and failed to control her pup.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Back in the days when I taught classes, the puppies were never allowed to play freely. It is rare to have compatible puppies in one class. One time (honestly true) I had a Eng. Mastiff and a Chihuahua pup, both 12 weeks in the class. How would that have gone?
Safety first.
Then in one of my puppy class there were two hard playing pups and I made extra time (after the other pups were in the cars) to have my teacher dog come in and teach these pups. I had instructed the class on what to expect. The pups immediately ambushed him and it took one snarl from him before things calmed down between both pups. Then he just walked around calmly. That was was a good illustration that when play is seemingly still OK to us, it is out of control in the leader dogs' eyes and it teaches pups the wrong behavior.
This teacher dog has passed on since long and I miss him every day. He never hurt or bullied any dog; he just had that presence over him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't have an issue with the person stopping the OP's dog from harassing the other puppy. Personally, I would have told her to come get her puppy NOW and not been nice about it. I have an issue with the other person SLAPPING the PUPPY. There are other ways to handle it. Restrain the puppy and tell the OP again to come get her puppy. Or tell the trainer. But there is no reason to slap a puppy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Back in the days when I taught classes, the puppies were never allowed to play freely. It is rare to have compatible puppies in one class.


This!! I've been looking for a class where the whole off leash crud not allowed. I have a fearful little guy and I don't care for the off leash stuff at all. So far I have not found one in my area! Ugh!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> This!! I've been looking for a class where the whole off leash crud not allowed. I have a fearful little guy and I don't care for the off leash stuff at all. So far I have not found one in my area! Ugh!



You could tell the trainer that you will step out during the free play and come back in when class resumes. Or, bring your own X pen and put him and yourself in there so he can watch the craziness from a safe place and you treating him so he gets used to this.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

In Lola's classes (basic and intermediate) they don't do off leash and there is no free play. They are there to learn and any playing is done after class. She just finished the intermediate and we didn't do off leash, but we did have the leashes up around our neck so that it's kinda off leash and if one of the dogs weren't listening we could easily correct them. 

I'm not sure why any class would have off leash work for puppies. I think most of the class would be just chasing them around. 



shepherdmom said:


> This!! I've been looking for a class where the whole off leash crud not allowed. I have a fearful little guy and I don't care for the off leash stuff at all. So far I have not found one in my area! Ugh!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Back in the days when I taught classes, the puppies were never allowed to play freely. It is rare to have compatible puppies in one class. One time (honestly true) I had a Eng. Mastiff and a Chihuahua pup, both 12 weeks in the class. How would that have gone?


Agree with this. I had a bad experience in puppy kindergarten free play. We dropped out of class. I think it is just a way for poor trainers to use up class time.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> You could tell the trainer that you will step out during the free play and come back in when class resumes. Or, bring your own X pen and put him and yourself in there so he can watch the craziness from a safe place and you treating him so he gets used to this.


The first one I went to, there was no control. I wound up leashing him and standing outside watching the entire time. There is another socialization fun time closer that I'm taking him to that is much more controlled, the person running the class is on top of it. However it is just pure socialization not training. I would like to get him a good trainer too. I've been working with the rescues trainer on an informal basis but there are a couple of issues we are stuck on. I don't want to hijack this thread so If anyone knows a good trainer in Northern Nevada please PM me.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

I think the owner of the GR puppy should have slapped the owner of the GSD puppy.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

Let me first start by saying this to all the responses Lucie is by no means a bully or an aggressive pup. She was attempting to play with this dog. The class we attend is an off leash play class. 

Your harsh comments on how I should've been on top of my dog is not needed. I know when to collar my pup for being to hyper so to say. 

Lucie was attempting to chase her pup when this woman grabbed my dog and slapped her and the fact that ppl on here are going to try to blame me is beyond words. 

And I was watching my dog she was playing not hurting. And a trainer was there but she was helping another woman who was there with her pup for the first time. 

I'm going to give my honest opinion on the whole thing. This woman should not have been at an off leash play class if she wasn't comfortable with other dogs attempting to play with hers. It wasn't only my pup that she continued to correct. Nor in all the classes we have attended has anyone acted like that. It's a class that gives our pups a chance to hang out and play. 


And my pup plays with an 82 lb GSD who happens to be my mothers dog and never have I had to step in because they play well together. So yes if you 80 something pound dog wanted to play with her and had her on her back I would let them do so and only intervene if one of the dogs was being hurt.

The fact that some of you agree that this woman was justified in slapping my pup is just appalling to me. Or that some form of rough correction was needed tells me what type of dog owners you are. 


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Just take this whole thing as a learning experience. You seem to genuinely care for your dog and want them to accel into a good dog. Your doing the right thing with the wrong trainer. I have to somewhat retract some of my statement and put 100% of the blame For this on your trainer. This is a situation that probably should have been touched on prior to the incident happening and that is the responsibility of the trainer. 100%. There should be ground rules set down the first day of class for things like this.

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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You guys act like this golden puppy can't handle himself. Golden puppies can handle themselves and they can dish it out to. I'm sure the golden was not innocent in this whole mess.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

alexg said:


> I think the owner of the GR puppy should have slapped the owner of the GSD puppy.



And for you to think someone should've slapped me is appalling. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't think anyone thinks slapping the dog was ok. I think they are more concerned with why you did not appreciate the fact that the other woman was clearly uncomfortable with how your dog was playing. I believe it was playing. But someone was uncomfortable, you should have stepped in and redirected your puppy. It makes no difference that this is a puppy play class. Someone was clearly uncomfortable and you ignored their fear. That's where the issue was. 


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

alexg said:


> I think the owner of the GR puppy should have slapped the owner of the GSD puppy.


Really ? Why? Did i miss something?

I have to agree we werent there and cannot tell if puppy was aggressive or not, even though I doubt it. I have seen new dog owners afraid of other dogs playing rough with their dog as they are not used to how dogs play. That is why I think its important to call your dog away if the owner feels tension whether they are playing or not.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree with this.



gsdsar said:


> I don't think anyone thinks slapping the dog was ok. I think they are more concerned with why you did not appreciate the fact that the other woman was clearly uncomfortable with how your dog was playing. I believe it was playing. But someone was uncomfortable, you should have stepped in and redirected your puppy. It makes no difference that this is a puppy play class. Someone was clearly uncomfortable and you ignored their fear. That's where the issue was.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

But see Lucie didn't even have the chance to play with her pup as soon as Lucie would come over and attempt play this woman was correcting her. There was no reason for correcting when the dogs couldn't even interact


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Well that link won't work thanks to the censor. Anyway the second most popular post on thedogsnobs.com 

OP doesn't see her role in how that all turned out. That says it all.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

andrea04 said:


> But see Lucie didn't even have the chance to play with her pup as soon as Lucie would come over and attempt play this woman was correcting her. There was no reason for correcting when the dogs couldn't even interact
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



But you said that she did just grab her collar, multiple times, and you dismissed her, saying they are just playing. The woman tried to just stop you puppy, you did nothing, you dismissed her worry. While I disagree with her smacking your puppy, it wasn't out of nowhere. It's wasn't her first response. It's was an escalation, that you failed to see was happening. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP, for someone that was far away filling up water bowls you seemed to have noticed a lot about the situation and yet you didn't do anything. Did you see the golden retriever tuck tail? Pin ears back? I've taught puppy class and when a more confident pup goes after a less confident one, its almost instant when you see the other one get weird. I've see confident 10 week old GSD puppies chase 6 month old GSD puppies around a room with their tails tucked between their legs.

I used to think the same way as you...as long as my dog is "playing" everything is great and no one should worry. But my standard for rough play is way higher than someone else's, and when they get uncomfortable if I don't step in and do something, I'm ruining the time for them and their dog.

If that GR is even a little bit fearful, or reactive, or just not confident...your pup's forward playing style can send it over the edge and cause it to become fearful or even DA. So for someone that knows HER dog so well...you seem to not want to believe this other woman knows HER dog well as well and that you for some reason know better.

Also...I know that you wouldn't be as comfortable letting your puppy play with a STRANGE dog as you are with your parent's dog. The moment your puppy's head ends up in a larger dog's mouth, I'm fairly certain you'll be stepping in.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdsar said:


> I don't think anyone thinks slapping the dog was ok. I think they are more concerned with why you did not appreciate the fact that the other woman was clearly uncomfortable with how your dog was playing. I believe it was playing. But someone was uncomfortable, you should have stepped in and redirected your puppy. It makes no difference that this is a puppy play class. Someone was clearly uncomfortable and you ignored their fear. That's where the issue was.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Exactly. 

AND...it's about protecting your puppy. The person is uncomfortable, go get your puppy and talk to the trainer. Don't put your puppy in a position that someone else can take charge of her.

Yes, I still would have been furious that someone slapped my puppy. But you do have some responsibility in this simply because you did not go get your puppy once you saw the person was having an issue with the whole thing.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i prolly would've been arrested for punching the lady in the face it this happened to me. that's how dogs like to play and it sounds like the lady is the one who needs training.

our girl julie when she was 6 months playing with her then BFF a golden retriever stella.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

andrea04 said:


> But see Lucie didn't even have the chance to play with her pup as soon as Lucie would come over and attempt play this woman was correcting her. There was no reason for correcting when the dogs couldn't even interact
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. The owner of the golden puppy could have walked away, the owner could have picked up their puppy and walked away, they could have talked to you, they could have to talked to the trainer, they could have talked to a manager, they could have left...and yet they still decided to slap your dog?? I don't think so. That woman would have had serious issues if she chose to hit any of my dogs.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

I wasn't far away I was maybe 5 feet away from Lucie. And the GR did not have his ears back or his tail tucked he was ready to play just as much as Lucie. Maybe I should've taken Lucie out of the class sooner. Maybe the trainer should've told me ahead of time that there was someone in the class that was overly protective. 

This woman didn't want her dog to play and shouldn't have been at that class. And you're right I should've known something was wrong when she collared Lucie for simply chasing her pup. 

The whole point of this class is for the pups to play which I think everyone is missing the point on that. This wasn't a class for a protective pet owner to bring their pup if they weren't going to allow it to play.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

I also appreciate those of you on here who support Lucie and I and don't caste judgment towards me


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hope you take a few deep breaths and read what people are posting without the defensiveness. There are some good points here. Regardless of the purpose of the class, you had a person that had an issue for whatever reason. YOU have to protect your puppy. That is your responsibility. You can't control others but you can control their interaction with your dog.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Thanks, Chip 18! Your links are right on target! I agree that I need to keep my puppy under the threshold of reactive behavior. CU is very instructive on this. 

It was the most dominant puppy in my dog's litter that repeatedly pinned him--along with another male from my dog's litter. It had only been 4 wks. since the litter had been broken up. Three GSD males from the same litter--mine was the very smallest dog in the litter. What a surprise to see the other two dogs. I don't think the trainer knew that--he was too busy saying the dogs needed to "work it out" while my dog was screaming the whole socialization period with his litter mates after him. My breeder said not to take him back and that the dominant dog should be kept on leash to learn he is not pack leader. 

Perhaps my dog does have a bad temperament, like the trainer said. At this point, I have to deal with the dog I have in front of me. He is great with all kinds of people, has a high prey drive, and is biddable. He has a lot of Kirschental bloodlines and is a soft dog. 

I live in a downtown area house with fencing in front and back. He is great with all the foot traffic walking in front of my house, He calmly stops playing, positions himself to see them, and watches until the people have completely passed my property.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Can you post a link to/or the actual description of the class? I've never head of a "class" that people actually pay for, that just involves a bunch of puppies playing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Moriah said:


> Thanks, Chip 18! Your links are right on target! I agree that I need to keep my puppy under the threshold of reactive behavior. CU is very instructive on this.
> 
> It was the most dominant puppy in my dog's litter that repeatedly pinned him--along with another male from my dog's litter. It had only been 4 wks. since the litter had been broken up. Three GSD males from the same litter--mine was the very smallest dog in the litter. What a surprise to see the other two dogs. I don't think the trainer knew that--he was too busy saying the dogs needed to "work it out" while my dog was screaming the whole socialization period with his litter mates after him. My breeder said not to take him back and that the dominant dog should be kept on leash to learn he is not pack leader.
> 
> ...



Holy CRAP! RUN! Run FAR and Run FAST from this trainer.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Can you post a link to/or the actual description of the class? I've never head of a "class" that people actually pay for, that just involves a bunch of puppies playing.



Carson Canine Adventures: 
Classes We Offer - Check out WAGIT Games on Upcoming Events and in Links Pages....Coming to CCA Soon!!!
Social Hours: This punch card session provides opportunities for safe, secure and supervised socialization for friendly 
dogs of all sizes, ages and breeds. A fun time to get to know other dog owners. Pre-Requisite is trainer approval or CCA evaluation. Punch Card System - Drop in (one time) - $20.00, 6 spots - $90.00 or 10 spots - $120.00

Dog Training by PJ:
Dog Training By PJ - Reno, Nevada
We regularly offer puppy socialization play and socialized adult toy dog and toy puppy play in order for you to be delighted in watching your puppy or toy dog play in a safe, sanitized and climate controlled environment. Our inviting indoor training facility and educational resource center is designed to be enjoyed for many years to come and is centrally located around the corner from Meadowood Mall, one block west of Longley Lane and one block south of McCarran Blvd


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> Carson Canine Adventures:
> 
> Classes We Offer - Check out WAGIT Games on Upcoming Events and in Links Pages....Coming to CCA Soon!!!
> 
> ...



If you are willing to drive to Reno I would try Joanna at Fur and Feather Works. I like her. Have (so far) only done nosework with her. Her puppy classes are usually full but maybe a basic manners class would be good since those are less likely to have free play time. I would at least call and talk to her.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

This is a description of the class


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

PJ sent me multiple articles about the evils of prong collars, just an FYI.I sent you the person I eventually went with. Oh and he only does private lessons and is not cheap but is very good.




shepherdmom said:


> Carson Canine Adventures:
> Classes We Offer - Check out WAGIT Games on Upcoming Events and in Links Pages....Coming to CCA Soon!!!
> Social Hours: This punch card session provides opportunities for safe, secure and supervised socialization for friendly
> dogs of all sizes, ages and breeds. A fun time to get to know other dog owners. Pre-Requisite is trainer approval or CCA evaluation. Punch Card System - Drop in (one time) - $20.00, 6 spots - $90.00 or 10 spots - $120.00
> ...


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Karin - and how many trainers have we gone through in the area?!? Katie might be an option but she is only doing privates right now and is at the N end of the Lake. Please update me in Tygo's training!!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

andrea04 said:


> View attachment 211121
> 
> 
> This is a description of the class
> ...


Marketed well......


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't fault you at all. This is not a dog park but a puppy class, there was a leader here, the trainer. If the retriever owner did not understand your pup's play or language, she should have contacted the trainer. If your pup was acting out of line, the trainer should have stepped in. The retriever owner is crazy and I'm sure her dog will develop that way too. 

I'm glad you demanded your money back and hope you can find a safer environment for play and socialization. You may want to check the website meetup. com for GSD groups or puppy groups in your area.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

The trainer from the class called me today. Apparently it's the first time this woman has owned a puppy. The trainer told me she had to put the other woman at ease several times after I left that it was ok for the other pups to play with hers. And also that is the pup wasn't ok with the play would be sure to let everyone know. 

But we have decided bc Lucie is larger than the other pups it's best for her to be moved to the adolescent play class so she can be with older pups her size.

I'm happy with the outcome and that Lucie will continue to get the socialization she needs.

Thanks again for all the comments and support. And I'm sorry that some of you felt I was the one who was wrong.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

This is exactly how Lucie plays




scarfish said:


> i prolly would've been arrested for punching the lady in the face it this happened to me. that's how dogs like to play and it sounds like the lady is the one who needs training.
> 
> our girl julie when she was 6 months playing with her then BFF a golden retriever stella.






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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

I have taken my GSD when she was a puppy to this very same place for puppy social. There are some dog owners that take their puppies to these classes that should stay at home. By that I mean the owners who have no idea how puppies play and freak out when another puppy tries to rough house. If someone would have slapped my puppy I would have freaked out and it wouldn't have been pretty. Some good advise has been given but some of the people responding are way off base.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have not read all the responses. 

I think that this is a product of doggy day care/ dog park society/ kennels where dogs are turned loose together that we currently have. I might let puppies that are all 8-10 weeks old play together for a few weeks. Maybe up to 16 weeks. But that is just me. I probably would not take my dogs to such a class, not ever.

I think that if you do take your dog to such a class, then you expect dogs to play with each other. And before you go and hit someone else's dog, you remove your dog from the situation, and forfeit your time. 

Subjecting your puppy to such a situation means letting dogs be dogs to a certain extent. If one is being a bit of a bully, you might call in the instructor to have them instruct the owner how to handle the situation. 

But, physically slapping someone else's dog just never seems appropriate -- not in a situation where puppies are there to play with each other. That's nuts. Who needs to slap a five month old puppy.

And yes, this could very well cause the GSD pup to be more suspicious with people. Definitely bad socialization.

Probably it would have been better to take your dog out to your car, crate it, come back in and sock her right in the nose. Ask, "how do you like it?" and then leave quick before the cops show up. But they will have your name and address, and you would be in trouble. But, your reaction while the puppy was there, probably was just as bad or at least compounded what she did to your dog. 

Yes, your post made me angry too. If people want to take dogs to places for dogs to play with each other, than they have to expect that either their dog, or the other dog is going to be a bit more rowdy, and if they aren't ok with that then they have to leave.

I don't like some of the trends in dog-ownership.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

Well put Selzer!


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

alexg said:


> I think the owner of the GR puppy should have slapped the owner of the GSD puppy.


Lol I agree. Nothing worst than someone not respecting your boundaries with the "oh they're just playing" comments. 

Also nothing worst than someone physically hitting your dog. Especially your pup. 

Both dog owners should just slap the trainer. 

Btw dog socialization classes? What a scam. Like your dog really needs to play with other dogs week after week.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

This is a 5 month old GSD......they are not "small" at that age and are very outgoing in their play. How old was the Golden?

If your dog was bigger, then the owner of the golden was probably just wanting to protect her "baby".....just like you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

andrea04 said:


> But see Lucie didn't even have the chance to play with her pup as soon as Lucie would come over and attempt play this woman was correcting her. There was no reason for correcting when the dogs couldn't even interact
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ok well you and your doggie have take lumps and bumps! 

Time to move on for the both of you! Yep you made mistakes but in all fairness so did the Golden owner! They had a short "trigger" she did act "inappropriately if you the guardian has that low a threshold, then she and here dog should not have been!

Putting your dog in a position where he could have a problem and then acting "inappropriately" is not right either! have


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

This thread reminds me of this great Aussie drama About - The Slap - ABC TV


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

andrea04 said:


> The trainer from the class called me today. Apparently it's the first time this woman has owned a puppy. The trainer told me she had to put the other woman at ease several times after I left that it was ok for the other pups to play with hers. And also that is the pup wasn't ok with the play would be sure to let everyone know.
> 
> But we have decided bc Lucie is larger than the other pups it's best for her to be moved to the adolescent play class so she can be with older pups her size.
> 
> ...


I read every single post. This is the phone call I was expecting you would get. Basically it's a class for play and the woman was a new dog owner who probably should have been given more one on one time and attention from the beginning. The "trainers" knew she was a new dog owner, they should have been focusing more on her and helping her learn what was and wasn't acceptable. They are at fault, neither one of you. 

I'm glad it all worked out and you are happy with the outcome.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

Sparra

The golden was slightly smaller than Lucie. But I can understand Lucie being intimidating to another pup owner she's very tall and 42 pounds


sparra said:


> This is a 5 month old GSD......they are not "small" at that age and are very outgoing in their play. How old was the Golden?
> 
> If your dog was bigger, then the owner of the golden was probably just wanting to protect her "baby".....just like you.





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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

This is a current pic of my Lucie girl


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe when you’re on the other side of this situation one day, you’ll figure out why you shouldn’t allow her to be that way. The fact that your dog is 42 lbs is going to change a lot of people’s opinions on the slap at this point. I’ve smacked my dog on the side or on the butt plenty of times, it’s not a big deal. Your “puppy” is officially bigger than 80% of dogs.

If you want to challenge my dog owning ability, I question why you take a 42 lbs GSD to a puppy socialization class like that. It’s pointless, and I could almost guarantee that what happened to your dog would happen. At that age and size, our club greatly limits how much dog on dog interaction a puppy gets because they are now powerful enough to injure each other. I know, she’s the sweetest, least aggressive dog in the world…but just wait until something pisses her off and you’re telling us about how she was “just playing” and it’s all the other dog’s fault…seems like it always is.

Congrats, the lady is inept at owning a dog, I’m sure there’s more information you can give us about how terrible of a dog owner she is and that you are calling AC on her tomorrow.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Also, GSD pups don't necessarily play like other pups. My pup wasn't the oldest in his puppy class, but he was the biggest and by far the roughest. The instructor didn't feel he was being bullying, but I did and would step in and redirect him. Nobody could come close to his play style. In hind sight (as always), I shouldn't have let him play with them at all. He really needed to be around a stable adult to keep him in check.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

The only reason we continued to attend that class is at the trainers request bc Lucie plays well with others. And I had requested numerous times that Lucie be moved to the adolescent class and the trainer would tell me the pups in that class are too rough for Lucie. Well given what happened the other day she has now seen the light, Lucie is not aggressive but she does love to play and I'm sure can be rough at times but that's most puppies. She will start with the adolescent play group Friday.

Please also know that I'm aware of when I need to step in and redirect Lucie when playing with other dogs. I don't just let her go wile and do what she pleases like some of you on here seem to think. Even the trainer said the woman was nervous and needed to be assured that her pup would let her know when he has had enough. So point the blame where you must if it makes you feel better but people who weren't there shouldn't cast judgment I was just venting.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You should never, ever “let your pup let you know when it’s had enough.” That’s the dumbest advice I’ve ever heard. Since the trainer allowed this situation to happen, I have a feeling they aren’t that great of a trainer, so I’d take all advice from this person with a grain of salt. They also allowed a 42lbs GSD in a “free-for-all puppy class.”

You’re missing the point…never allow ANYONE else to tell you when your dog has had enough, or what is or isn’t okay during interactions with YOUR dog.

I’m fine with you venting, I’m just trying to present the other POV. You loved all the people that supported you, you love the trainer who is also telling you the other party is the one at fault, and you’re dismissing anyone that says the opposite…normal human behavior. Like I said, just wait until you’re on the other side of the coin and your dog is the one that’s showing fearful behavior and the other owner doesn’t step in to do anything about it.

Go to class, learn about your dog, but don’t expect her to stay a sweet little puppy forever. My dog used to play extremely well with other dogs, he matured, and then before I knew it or could recognize it, he became the bully. It took me a little while to realize what was going on, and a lot of blaming other dog’s behavior for what my dog was doing…but at the end of the day, I could only control one thing, and that’s my dog. In a situation like that, if a person isn’t comfortable with your dog playing with their dog…redirect. There is no need for your dog to just play with THAT dog. Your dog was clearly focusing on that one dog, which is never a good thing when it comes to strange dogs and it should’ve been stopped way earlier. But you were too busy thinking about how greatly your dog interacts with other dogs and that the lady should just let the “dogs take care of it.”


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have been happy with someone slapping my dog either. It seems the goldie has confidence issues. Which is maybe why it's there. The Goldies owner overreacted. This is Why this is all on the trainer, not the Goldies owner and not the OP's. They were both put into this situation by the trainer. Why should the owner be criticized to this extent for posting a thread about someone slapping their dog? I can understand their position. I've had to pull a dog or two off and never had to slap the dog. I simply held the dog by the collar and either took them to their owner or brought it to their attention that I was not comfortable with their dogs actions. End of problem. I did not hit their dog to accomplish this. 

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is why OP needs to calm down...

"They claim they would have someone call me today to discuss what happened. But I feel there isn't much to discuss that woman should be banned for the mistreatment of Lucie. And someone should call the humane society as who knows what she does to her puppy. Was I wrong for losing my temper and screaming?? Should I even consider taking her back there??"

Ban a woman that clearly doesn't know how to handle dogs? That's a good decision. Or call the humane society (would be AC) on her and get her dog taken away because she slapped a dog? Seriously? If that's your reaction anytime someone does something like that...you haven't been around dogs and dog owners long enough.

If you want to OVERREACT to what someone else did...you need to realize that YOU put your dog in the situation to have that happen to them.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Oi. What a hot mess. 

This is why I don't buy into these puppy classes. They are a waste of time and money, IMO. I see them as gimmicks targeted at the modern new and/or well-meaning puppy owner who is sold on the misnomer that is called "socialization". I think this term is being taken too literally.

I think the GR lady was way out of line hitting your dog. Everyone agrees with that! Nobody is siding with the GR lady on *that*, but I also agree it would have been prudent to step in and redirect your puppy away from the GR when it was evident the owner was hounding your dog... for the main reason that I don't want ANY stranger manhandling my puppy. So instead of letting that play continue and having my puppy being shadowed & collared by an idiot, I rather call my pup away from that kind of attention for HER sake. 

There are other points brought up that I agree with, but why beat a dead horse, right?

JMO.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I have a really hard time thinking of this as a class of any kind Andrea. Class to me means teaching something. Puppy free for all where you try to restrain them sometimes is about it. When they're playing and sparing with other pups, I can't imagine YOU"RE teaching them anything. They're doing and thinking whatever they want to at that time.

Maybe I'm just too much of a control freak? Not really into letting them work it out between them.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I am sorry that this happened; I would be very upset with someone else hitting my dog. However, you should treat this as a learning experience. 



andrea04 said:


> My son and I were filling water dishes for the dogs when I looked over and this woman had a hold of Lucie's collar again and her puppy was at her feet and she slapped my Lucie I asked her nicely not to slap my dog and before I could reach Lucie this woman slapped her a second time and I screamed at her for slapping Lucie.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You have to pay attention to your dog, all the time, in situations like this. With dogs, things can change in the blink of an eye. When my GSD puppy was younger and out with my other dogs, I had to be 100% focused on him. He was a typical GSD landshark puppy, and while he was not at all aggressive, he required a lot of redirection on my part to learn how to interact appropriately with the other dogs. At 7 months old, he still requires redirection and reminders. In this situation I would have been watching my puppy very closely by. The other woman simply would not have a chance to physically correct my dog without getting through me first. 

This woman warned you that she was uncomfortable with your dog and the way she was playing. Several times, in fact. Whether her concerns were warranted or not, you need to respect her wishes and keep your dog away from hers. This goes beyond respecting her but also protects your puppy. There are many reasons that people might not want your dog to interact with theirs. Their dog could be reactive or fear aggressive. Maybe the owner just doesn't like GSDs or has insecurities of their own. Who knows, but whenever there is a doubt about wanting the dogs to interact, just err on the side of caution and stay away. 

Just a few more thoughts. I have always had dogs; Australian Shepherds, ACDs, Collies, Labs, Goldens, and lived with a room mate's pit mixes. All active, strong medium/large breed dogs. Bear is my first GSD, and they play different than many other dogs. GSDs are strong, powerful dogs that play hard and rough. A lot of other dogs (and their owners) do not enjoy that type of play. Period. While your dog may very well be playing in a typical and appropriate manner for a 5 month old GSD, it may not be well received in group play sessions. 

Here's a look at it from the other side. I used to go to the dog park years ago with my other dogs. My lab mix loves playing fetch, and we were having a good time playing in the dog park. We were off in a corner, away from other people, when an older couples pack of 3 GSDs decided that they wanted to play with my dog's ball. They trampled her, pinned her, took her ball, and made sure she didn't play anymore. Oh, in the owners eyes, there was nothing aggressive about their dogs actions. They were "just being GSDs that wanted to play ball." Not an apology or a redirection from the dogs' owners. In my dog's eyes, bigger dogs became scary things to be avoided after that incident. We don't do dog parks or big group plays anymore. 

Please don't take this as an attack on you. Dog owners learn through experiences and mistakes. Go enjoy that pretty puppy of yours.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

Andrea also did not tell you that the Golden Retriever owner slapped Lucie both times across the face not the butt. That is totally unacceptable. And some of the people replying should just refrain on giving their opinion, your mind set is not quite normal, just saying. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LynneLittlefield said:


> Andrea also did not tell you that the Golden Retriever owner slapped Lucie both times across the face not the butt. That is totally unacceptable. And some of the people replying should just refrain on giving their opinion, your mind set is not quite normal, just saying.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And she told you this?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

osito23 said:


> Here's a look at it from the other side. I used to go to the dog park years ago with my other dogs. My lab mix loves playing fetch, and we were having a good time playing in the dog park. We were off in a corner, away from other people, when an older couples pack of 3 GSDs decided that they wanted to play with my dog's ball. They trampled her, pinned her, took her ball, and made sure she didn't play anymore. Oh, in the owners eyes, there was nothing aggressive about their dogs actions. They were "just being GSDs that wanted to play ball." Not an apology or a redirection from the dogs' owners. In my dog's eyes, bigger dogs became scary things to be avoided after that incident. We don't do dog parks or big group plays anymore.
> 
> Please don't take this as an attack on you. Dog owners learn through experiences and mistakes. Go enjoy that pretty puppy of yours.


Doesn't strike me as an attack, it's more in the theme of why some people and there dog can be problems! The x factor the "owners!"

Clearly neither the owner or those dogs should have been in a group situation! The dogs were badly behaved and the owner did not care! People like that are out there!


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

martemchik said:


> And she told you this?



Yes she is my daughter, would you like to dispute that too?








Here is a picture of Lucie with my Luna, she certainly isn't a huge, hulking puppy gone wild type.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Doesn't strike me as an attack, it's more in the theme of why some people and there dog can be problems! The x factor the "owners!"
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly neither the owner or those dogs should have been in a group situation! The dogs were badly behaved and the owner did not care! People like that are out there!


This is a puppy social class where puppies not dogs are supposed to play with each other and their owners are learning to know how to have their puppies interact with each Many of you are missing this point.



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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

For everyone that’s focusing on the slap rather than what led up to the slap…

What kind of reaction/correction do you think would be appropriate? So…you’re in that setting, a dog is fixating on your dog (and those of us with GSDs should understand better than anyone what it means when one fixates), and the owner is thinking everything is fine. You grab the collar once, try to redirect, dog is too fixated and still keeps going after your dog. What kind of correction is warranted? A real good shake with a flat collar? Or just stand there hanging the dog on a flat collar while it struggles to get back on the ground? Or should you go up to the owner, while your dog is running away from this other animal and go, “excuse me, would you mind not allowing your dog to play with my dog?” Since we all know that last option works really well with people that think they have the nicest dogs in the world and that all dogs should be allowed to play with their dog. Let’s equate that last one to telling someone that their kid isn’t allowed to play with your kid…I’m pretty sure that goes over really well in real life.

Remember…you paid good money to be in a class, that is advertised as a safe way to socialize your puppy with other puppies and this other puppy is bullying yours. So it’s highly unlikely that you’re going to remove your dog…who isn’t doing anything to the other dogs from the situation.

Dogs don't have to show aggression, or enter into what everyone would agree to be a fight in order to really affect the development of another dog. They do a lot of things with their bodies and other actions that can negatively affect another dog.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

Yes the GR's owner slapped Lucie in the face. And I was asked to attend the class.

Lucie has been used in training videos for obedience classes there and has been used to help other pups build confidence.

While yes maybe I was at fault for not being "on top" of Lucie but there had never been a need before that class. I know when to redirect her and I have never let her get to the point of possibly hurting another animal. But this woman slapped my dog not once but twice within the 10 seconds it took me to reach her. I don't fault the woman for redirecting Lucie I fault her for how she choose to do it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LynneLittlefield said:


> Yes she is my daughter, would you like to dispute that too?
> 
> Here is a picture of Lucie with my Luna, she certainly isn't a huge, hulking puppy gone wild type.
> 
> ...


I'm going off information that was provided. If she wanted us to know where the dog was slapped...she should've written that at some point.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

martemchik said:


> For everyone that’s focusing on the slap rather than what led up to the slap…
> 
> What kind of reaction/correction do you think would be appropriate? So…you’re in that setting, a dog is fixating on your dog (and those of us with GSDs should understand better than anyone what it means when one fixates), and the owner is thinking everything is fine. You grab the collar once, try to redirect, dog is too fixated and still keeps going after your dog. What kind of correction is warranted? A real good shake with a flat collar? Or just stand there hanging the dog on a flat collar while it struggles to get back on the ground? Or should you go up to the owner, while your dog is running away from this other animal and go, “excuse me, would you mind not allowing your dog to play with my dog?” Since we all know that last option works really well with people that think they have the nicest dogs in the world and that all dogs should be allowed to play with their dog. Let’s equate that last one to telling someone that their kid isn’t allowed to play with your kid…I’m pretty sure that goes over really well in real life.
> 
> ...



Lucie wasn't fixated on the GR she was playing with the other pups in the class also


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I imagine a slap is always across the face, since that is what a slap is, right? Regardless, a strike is a strike; does not matter where on the dog.. and is inappropriate in this instance.

Could it have been prevented? Yes. I always believe in being proactive, and sometimes that means swallowing my pride, even if I know I have done nothing wrong because the consequences are just not worth dealing with. 

I think everyone agrees that the GR lady was inappropriate. However, there needs to be a level of accountability that needs to be accepted by the OP as well. It doesn't make her a bad person as she thinks others are making her feel... it is just another experience in life that we can either hang onto it negatively or learn from it so it will never happen again.

Also, people should realize when posting on a public forum, there are going to be opinions from every direction. We have to grow a thick hide, occasionally swallow our ego and realize sometimes these opinions - even if they are unpleasant to accept because they clash with ours or hurt our feelings - are actually valuable pieces of advice. Of course, we need a good dose of common sense too, to filter out the white noise. But again, this is what learning is all about.

Good luck.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

I didn't think it was important as to where Lucie was slapped. But she was slapped in her face TWICE. I should just remember that most of you think slapping a dog is ok no matter where the slap was.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

martemchik said:


> For everyone that’s focusing on the slap rather than what led up to the slap…
> 
> What kind of reaction/correction do you think would be appropriate? So…you’re in that setting, a dog is fixating on your dog (and those of us with GSDs should understand better than anyone what it means when one fixates), and the owner is thinking everything is fine. You grab the collar once, try to redirect, dog is too fixated and still keeps going after your dog. What kind of correction is warranted? A real good shake with a flat collar? Or just stand there hanging the dog on a flat collar while it struggles to get back on the ground? Or should you go up to the owner, while your dog is running away from this other animal and go, “excuse me, would you mind not allowing your dog to play with my dog?” Since we all know that last option works really well with people that think they have the nicest dogs in the world and that all dogs should be allowed to play with their dog. Let’s equate that last one to telling someone that their kid isn’t allowed to play with your kid…I’m pretty sure that goes over really well in real life.
> 
> ...


Now this is a bullying situation? OMG! The GR owner was an older woman and Lucie tried to play with that dog twice. When I went to those classes there were people who brought puppies and if another puppy tried to grab ahold of their puppy to play they would freak. These kind of people need to stay home. This isn't a dog park. If you can't reply with any useful insight don't reply at all.



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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LynneLittlefield said:


> This is a puppy social class where puppies not dogs are supposed to play with each other and their owners are learning to know how to have their puppies interact with each Many of you are missing this point.


This is probably the dumbest class I've ever heard of then.

First...the dog is already 42 lbs...not really a "puppy" anymore. Dog has its adult teeth, dog is bigger than the majority of dogs out there. I could care less what the age says about the dog, its a 42lbs animal.

Second...why teach owners how to have their puppies interact? They won't be puppies for long, they're going to mature, and the more you tell people that certain interactions are alright, the longer it will take them to realize when their dog is actually in the wrong.

Third...the "trainer" of this class, is doing a really bad job of showing how to have puppies interact with each other. No way should fixating ever be allowed, and there is no way that anyone should be telling owners that certain interactions are fine when those owners are clearly uncomfortable with those interactions.

Fourth...wish my mommy would come defend me sometimes...


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

LynneLittlefield said:


> This is a puppy social class where puppies not dogs are supposed to play with each other and their owners are learning to know how to have their puppies interact with each Many of you are missing this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are missing the point in your reply to Chip. You have completely misinterpreted him in your zest to stand up for your daughter. Take a chill pill, calm down and realize we are not attacking your daughter.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

The Stig said:


> I imagine a slap is always across the face, since that is what a slap is, right? Regardless, a strike is a strike; does not matter where on the dog.. and is inappropriate in this instance.
> 
> Could it have been prevented? Yes. I always believe in being proactive, and sometimes that means swallowing my pride, even if I know I have done nothing wrong because the consequences are just not worth dealing with.
> 
> ...






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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

Well said Stig.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LynneLittlefield said:


> Now this is a bullying situation? OMG! The GR owner was an older woman and Lucie tried to play with that dog twice. When I went to those classes there were people who brought puppies and if another puppy tried to grab ahold of their puppy to play they would freak. These kind of people need to stay home. This isn't a dog park. If you can't reply with any useful insight don't reply at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes...Lucie was bullying the other puppy according to the information provided. Lucie was fixated. A single collar grab didn't stop Lucie from continuing to go after the Golden Retriever. She was bullying.

In your mind...is the only useful insight that which agrees with your daughter and you?


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Gorgeous dogs. 

I would of vented as well. The only time I've seen my husband angry was when someone raised a hand to one of our dogs. 

There's something wrong if you can't come on here and vent about someone slapping your dog without it turning in to your fault. 

Sometimes things get out of hand. No class is 100% perfect and neither is any owner or training method. Give the women a break, she saw someone slap her puppy...twice. She has every right to be mad just like she has every right to calm down and come to a new and better arrangement with the trainer. We've all been there with owners of other breeds thinking the GSD pup is going to eat their pup, I've had people pick up their dogs and walk in the opposite direction when my dogs are walking calmly on the lead. 

Hope the adolescent class goes well, either way you have an adorable puppy.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I sense this thread getting locked soon since now it is just a merry-go-round. Hehe!

Anyway, what is done is done. We can't change the past ... we were not there to see what exactly went down, although I don't think Lucie was even close to being a bully ... there were some very valuable advice offered ... and at the end of the day, I think little Lucie is none the worse for wear from those slaps. I think the humans, me included, are more upset about that than Lucie, who *seems* to have forgotten all about it.

Enjoy your young pup, and perhaps consider that puppy social classes are 'beneath' her and she is ready to move onto more serious training, if that is where your next step is. 

Nice dog though.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Doesn't strike me as an attack, it's more in the theme of why some people and there dog can be problems! The x factor the "owners!"
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly neither the owner or those dogs should have been in a group situation! The dogs were badly behaved and the owner did not care! People like that are out there!



This is why people like us live in nowhere Nevada. It wouldn't be the dog I was slapping. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The Stig said:


> I imagine a slap is always across the face, since that is what a slap is, right? Regardless, a strike is a strike; does not matter where on the dog.. and is inappropriate in this instance.


What about a slap on the butt? Isn't that a slap?

BTW...love Top Gear. I have the "Stig Family" stickers on the back of my car, including the two Stig dogs.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Oh, that I would refer to as a spank if it is on the backside. A slap is always across the face, and a smack could just about be anywhere. All 'S's and all highly unpleasant, especially when I was a kid. 

But I grew up in Singapore, and was taught British English so coming to America, there is always that possibility of 'Lost in Translation'. 

ps: massive fan of TG.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

The Stig said:


> I imagine a slap is always across the face, since that is what a slap is, right? Regardless, a strike is a strike; does not matter where on the dog.. and is inappropriate in this instance.
> 
> Could it have been prevented? Yes. I always believe in being proactive, and sometimes that means swallowing my pride, even if I know I have done nothing wrong because the consequences are just not worth dealing with.
> 
> ...


Agree!

Op you are just so full of excuses, and "MAYBE I did something wrong..." "BUT" and "I just..."

You keep wanting to redirect the attention back to this terrible GR owner. EVERYONE has said it's wrong to hit someone's else's dog. You keep wanting to play this, "but she's worse than me" game. 

Who cares? The whole thing is a hot mess in my eyes. A puppy free for all, with a trainer who sounds borderline incompetent, and some know-it-all owners with perfect angel puppies.

This whole thing is so silly. You have a right to be angry...on the flip side, so does the GR owner. It took SEVERAL attempts (by your own admittance) for her to get your attention, and even then...you knew better than her, and apparently she should just be uncomfortable or leave, because you know better 

BTW, I like that you jumped right to that instead of educating, removing your dog, and helping her to feel more comfortable. I don't understand people that don't care when their actions are making someone uncomfortable. Especially in a "learning" environment. Seize the moment to learn...that is what this is for right?? Or is it just a dog park under the guise of "training?"

Whenever someone points out how you were at fault and also need to take some responsibility, you just redirect onto how horrible the other woman was and "BUT she did this!" dismiss everything potentially negative about you, and point out all the great things about your dog. We've all had GSD puppies, the "angel" phase wears off quickly and there are a bazillion threads about perfect dog park GSDs that stopped being so perfect at maturity (there is a reason "aloof" is in the standard). Then the "angels" became bullies...because they were playing with a bunch of puppies that didn't know how or didn't have the confidence to tell your "angel" to knock it off with the rough play, another bad habit picked up by the "free for all" mentality. Or they were attacked because they encountered a dog that didn't want to play, they didn't respond to that body language, wouldn't let up, and now are DA or fearful. 

Your defensive responses are so childish, and to top it off now your mum is hear to back you up.... 

Ultimately everyone is at fault (imo). I don't really think any one thing is worse than the other, the whole thing is wrong in my opinion and the reason everyone is pointing out that you need to take some responsibility is YOU could have prevented the entire encounter...you. You can point out as many positive things about your puppy as you want, the situation at hand, is what it is. You should have redirected your dog the FIRST time you noticed she wasn't comfortable and had a chat with her about dog behavior.

My is a puppy (7 months), and can play super rough with my corgi. My corgi is a tough little guy, but he's also a stable *adult*, that can tell the GSD to knock it off when it's too much and my GSD obliges, my corgi is confident, knows the rules, and shows my GSD those rules. This is (hopefully) preventing my GSD from swinging too far in either direction, he's not fearful because my corgi is fair in his "knock it off" language, and he's not picking up bullying habits because the corgi doesn't let him go there.

Another puppy could be terrified of my exuberant GSD. I would never put another *puppy* in that position. Potentially allowing my dog to become a bully (because a less exuberant or fearful puppy is never going to put him in his place, only reinforce the bullying behavior), or have an over-the-top, attack reaction to my dog, potentially teaching him a need to be on the defensive.

OP, you just seem a little mad that you didn't get a bunch of troops rallying behind you. It happens ALL the time on here. A poster comes on expecting everyone to agree that their dog and themselves were horribly faulted. More often than not, other perspectives are pointed out, the OP feels "attacked" and gets defensive. Silly. 

I predict you will dismiss everything I have to say, simply because I think you need to take some responsibility in this. You'll continue to thank all those that are patting you on the back, and completely go deaf/blind to those that are saying, "yeah...you didn't handle this well either." Rarely, in these free-for-situations, does the fault lie at one owner's/dog's feet. It's usually everyone's fault, it's usually a mess (and why most of us stay far, far away, from "free for alls").


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

Amurphy26 said:


> Gorgeous dogs.
> 
> I would of vented as well. The only time I've seen my husband angry was when someone raised a hand to one of our dogs.
> 
> ...


Well said!



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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> Gorgeous dogs.
> 
> I would of vented as well. The only time I've seen my husband angry was when someone raised a hand to one of our dogs.
> 
> ...


Really?? Seriously?? 

This is a forum on the internet, not some kumbayah, lets-pretend-everyone-is-perfect-and-those-not-here-to-defend-themselves-are-completely-wrong, private facebook group.

Everyone needs to be in real obedience classes, not paying money to let their dog be bullied or be the bully. How many GSD's on here have major fear issues because of someone else's "too-rough" dog bullying the crap out of the puppy? How many come on here upset because another puppy chased their's down and now their puppy is acting skittish? MOST of the GSD's I saw at dog parks were more fearful than the other dogs. 

The breed isn't an excuse for bad manners.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I can see both sides of this. I have been in situations where another dog owner is very overprotective of their dog, and also doesn't realize that sometimes puppies can play rough. I have 2 huskies, and normal rough play for them would be deemed an all out dog fight by 95% of owners of other dog breeds...but my huskies are just playing. Luckily for me, GSDs also play a bit rough, so my 2 GSDs fit right in and hold their ground with my Sibes. I used to go to dog parks that would have people playing Chuckit with their dogs. They would not want any dogs to interact with their dogs, nor play fetch with them, etc. I never understood why they were in a fenced-in, off leash park full of dogs running around together, but they didn't want their dog to play with anyone else there and wanted all dogs to stay away from them, their dog, and their dog toys.

I've also been in dog park situations where my Nara was doing nothing wrong, but people misread the dog play/roughhousing, and put their hands on my Nara. I do not allow anyone else to handle my dog (not even to grab her collar), and after that, I would watch Nara like a hawk, watch all other nearby dogs like a hawk, and would track Nara to ensure that I could get to her before anyone else could touch her. Never had another issue, but finally came to the conclusion that dog parks and puppy socialization is not worth the stress it was causing me. This class sounds like a dog park situation under the guise of being called a "class." As I learned more about dogs, I found that dog socialization is usually unnecessary, as dogs only need to be sociable within their own pack (humans and other dogs), and tolerant of other humans. It's not natural for a dog to be sociable with every strange dog it might encounter in the world. I also learned from experience that, as your dog matures and the guarding and natural protective instincts come to fruition, their friendly play from puppyhood will diminish and eventually disappear. I no longer go to dog parks, and I only let my dogs play with friend's and co-workers dogs after they've been properly introduced one on one, and not thrown in a free-for-all dog park situation. I have had too many bad experiences with dogs at dog parks, and that eventually led to my dogs misbehaving trying to repeat the behaviors of dogs that attacked them. 

I've been through many dog classes, and none of them were puppies off leash, out of control (not being closely supervised by their owners and/or the trainer), playing with each other as a means of "socialization." It was actually made clear at the beginning of each class that the dogs were NOT ALLOWED to meet and greet or be a nuisance/bark at other dogs. It was still socialization, as the dogs were in sit/stay or down/stay within close proximity of "strange dogs" who were doing the same thing right next to them. They could smell and see them, but not get close enough to interact or disturb their neighbors.

So the real dilemma for me has been: which owner should remove their dog and leave? The overprotective owner in the minority who doesn't understand normal roughhousing and dog play, and seems like they shouldn't be there in the first place? Or the owner of the roughhousing dog that is supposedly creating the problem, making a single individual uncomfortable, even though all other dog owners seem to be OK with the dog's behavior?


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Really?? Seriously??
> 
> This is a forum on the internet, not some kumbayah, lets-pretend-everyone-is-perfect-and-those-not-here-to-defend-themselves-are-completely-wrong, private facebook group.
> 
> ...



Why would I have written it if I wasn't serious?





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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

For those you say I won't admit I was wrong I won't because I don't feel I was. But opinions are like [email protected] everyone has one.

I came on here to vent not to unjustly be accused of not "watching" my pup. Everyone had some great advice on the situation I will certainly take that into consideration when we start adolescent play. 

I would never imagine slapping someone else's dog in the face as a form of correction especially a puppy


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

andrea04 said:


> Was I wrong for losing my temper and screaming?? Should I even consider taking her back there??
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



In your original post you asked if you were wrong for losing your temper and screaming. You were venting but you were also asking for our opinions. Which you got, you just don't like some of them.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

andrea04 said:


> I would never imagine slapping someone else's dog in the face as a form of correction especially a puppy


What would you suggest as a correction then? What type of correction wouldn't have been too much for you?

And its a 42lbs shepherd...get past calling it a puppy.

I also don't get the idea that if someone prerequisites their story with "this is a vent" we should all just support their vent and tell them how right they were for whatever it is they did.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

stmcfred said:


> In your original post you asked if you were wrong for losing your temper and screaming. You were venting but you were also asking for our opinions. Which you got, you just don't like some of them.


I don't like some of them either, nor how they were delivered.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> What would you suggest as a correction then? What type of correction wouldn't have been too much for you?
> 
> And its a 42lbs shepherd...get past calling it a puppy.
> 
> I also don't get the idea that if someone prerequisites their story with "this is a vent" we should all just support their vent and tell them how right they were for whatever it is they did.


Five month old GSDs are NOT adults, they are puppies. 

Why not let the class trainer manage the situation, rather than correct another person's dog. If she did not like the attention the shepherd pup was giving she should have drawn the attention of the trainer to the issue. 

Correct your own dog, don't correct other people's dogs. Surely you can block a dog from yours without striking it, if you feel you must protect your dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> For everyone that’s focusing on the slap rather than what led up to the slap…
> 
> What kind of reaction/correction do you think would be appropriate? So…you’re in that setting, a dog is fixating on your dog (and those of us with GSDs should understand better than anyone what it means when one fixates), and the owner is thinking everything is fine. You grab the collar once, try to redirect, dog is too fixated and still keeps going after your dog. What kind of correction is warranted? A real good shake with a flat collar? Or just stand there hanging the dog on a flat collar while it struggles to get back on the ground? Or should you go up to the owner, while your dog is running away from this other animal and go, “excuse me, would you mind not allowing your dog to play with my dog?” Since we all know that last option works really well with people that think they have the nicest dogs in the world and that all dogs should be allowed to play with their dog. Let’s equate that last one to telling someone that their kid isn’t allowed to play with your kid…I’m pretty sure that goes over really well in real life.
> 
> ...


 
I would never grab another dog anywhere, collar or otherwise. I would grab my dog and go, but I would never ever touch another dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> What would you suggest as a correction then? What type of correction wouldn't have been too much for you?
> 
> And its a 42lbs shepherd...get past calling it a puppy.
> 
> I also don't get the idea that if someone prerequisites their story with "this is a vent" we should all just support their vent and tell them how right they were for whatever it is they did.


 
Golden puppies are not that much smaller then GSD puppies at the same age. My male golden was at least 50 pounds by 6 months old. A 5 month old dog no matter the weight is still a puppy, no matter how you look at it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I would never grab another dog anywhere, collar or otherwise. I would grab my dog and go, but I would never ever touch another dog.


:thumbup:



llombardo said:


> Golden puppies are not that much smaller then GSD puppies at the same age. My male golden was at least 50 pounds by 6 months old. A 5 month old dog no matter the weight is still a puppy, no matter how you look at it.


:thumbup:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Golden puppies are not that much smaller then GSD puppies at the same age. My male golden was at least 50 pounds by 6 months old. A 5 month old dog no matter the weight is still a puppy, no matter how you look at it.


OP pointed out the fact that her dog was asked to be in a younger puppy class rather than a more advanced one, so I'm assuming the GR wasn't the same age as the GSD.

I could care less about the "mental state" of the dog...yes, its a puppy. But its also a large dog that is capable of doing damage...no matter how you look at it.

And...to the point of grabbing your dog and leaving...most people don't do that. She paid her money just like everyone else did...why would she leave? Why is it up to her to lose the time she paid for because some other person has brought in a dog that keeps going after her dog?

I'm imagining what kind of a thread this would be if the other lady was the OP...what kind of advice would've been given, and how much sympathy there would've been for her. Oh wait...just look up any dog park thread and you'll see what people would say and how they would "attack" our actual OP for having a dog that wasn't under control.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Everyone needs to be in real obedience classes, not paying money to let their dog be bullied or be the bully. How many GSD's on here have major fear issues because of someone else's "too-rough" dog bullying the crap out of the puppy? How many come on here upset because another puppy chased their's down and now their puppy is acting skittish? MOST of the GSD's I saw at dog parks were more fearful than the other dogs.
> 
> The breed isn't an excuse for bad manners.


 
I was in a "*real"* obedience class as you call it and the trainers 1 year old female Leonberger that was in heat went for my female GSD that was about 7 months at the time and a lot smaller. I blocked the dog, my female seen her coming and went the other way, then class continued. I didn't slap that dog or the trainer and it certainly did not make my dog skiddish or fearful. I've had a golden puppy viciously attacked by an adult Rott and again no fear issues. A person can not blame all the fear issues that their dogs have on a dog that attacked them, that is just an excuse for either poor nerves or not continually working with the dog after it was involved in any kind of situation with another dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Correct your own dog, don't correct other people's dogs. Surely you can block a dog from yours without striking it, if you feel you must protect your dog.


So blocking a dog? Is that like kicking it? Using your legs/feet to prevent it from coming towards your dog? Sounds very dangerous and inhumane if you ask me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> OP pointed out the fact that her dog was asked to be in a younger puppy class rather than a more advanced one, so I'm assuming the GR wasn't the same age as the GSD.
> 
> I could care less about the "mental state" of the dog...yes, its a puppy. But its also a large dog that is capable of doing damage...no matter how you look at it.


 
There is about a month difference in age I believe. There is not going to be a huge age difference. The woman that slapped the GSD would be horrified and probably slap my golden retriever puppy if she could see how he plays. The woman that did the slapping was being unrealistic and should not be bringing her dog to a class that is specifically a play date with other dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> So blocking a dog? Is that like kicking it? Using your legs/feet to prevent it from coming towards your dog? Sounds very dangerous and inhumane if you ask me.


 
I stood in front of the Leonberger and we danced, she went one way, I stood in front of her, etc. It was enough time for the trainer to come get her and she never got to my dog nor did I ever put a finger or foot on her.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> OP pointed out the fact that her dog was asked to be in a younger puppy class rather than a more advanced one, so I'm assuming the GR wasn't the same age as the GSD.
> 
> I could care less about the "mental state" of the dog...yes, its a puppy. But its also a large dog that is capable of doing damage...no matter how you look at it.
> 
> ...


 
Your definition and my definition of "going after" are very different. Young puppies bite each other, chase each other, pounce on each other, some even growl.....I imagine that at 5 months old most people would not consider a dog a bully or aggressive (by what the OP described in her situation) wherever it happened.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I stood in front of the Leonberger and we danced, she went one way, I stood in front of her, etc. It was enough time for the trainer to come get her and she never got to my dog nor did I ever put a finger or foot on her.


You're equating a small, quick, GSD puppy. To a large, much slower, Leonberger.

I'm enjoying these examples that either add more to the situation or completely remove certain factors in OP's story. OP had enough time to go get her puppy when the *INEXPERIENCED *person grabbed her dog by the collar (which most inexperienced people do), but decided against it since her dog was "just playing."


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Your definition and my definition of "going after" are very different. Young puppies bite each other, chase each other, pounce on each other, some even growl.....I imagine that at 5 months old most people would not consider a dog a bully or aggressive (by what the OP described in her situation) wherever it happened.


I've witnessed 4 month old puppies, corner other puppies, force tails between legs, and make other puppies yelp.

I guess we're going by the rules of hardcourt basketball...no blood no foul. In which case, you're right...the puppy was unlikely to draw blood or send the GR to the vet, therefore, whatever happens happens.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> So blocking a dog? Is that like kicking it? Using your legs/feet to prevent it from coming towards your dog? Sounds very dangerous and inhumane if you ask me.


Why has this site become so violent lately? Blocking a dog doesn't mean kicking the dog. It is getting in the way of the dog, and having your dog behind you, so that the dog's owner can get their dog, and no one is injured. 

No one is upset. Things go on, and no one has to leave, and no one has to yell. 

Would YOU like to be at a dog park with the GR lady, if you knew she was carrying?

Talk about an over-reaction. 

You keep saying the dog was "going for her dog." But it doesn't sound like that from the only person who was actually there. Whose dog is a veteran of puppy socialization. 

If you take your dog to a class for puppies to interact with each other and play with each other, than you have to expect a dog to show and interest in your dog. This thread has been insane. 
The gal takes her dog to puppy socialization and someone slaps her puppy, twice. That's nuts! There should be outrage. 

Look at the outrage on a full grown, fully trained police dog being slapped a little with the lead by its handler. _That _dog will be marred forever, but this little _puppy _won't be affected by a stranger smacking it in the face? 

I don't know. Things seem really out of whack lately.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

If I had a dog come at my dog aggressively (not saying at all that this was Lucie's case) I would retaliate w/ force to protect my dog. At that point, I wouldn't care about not laying a hand on the other dog, or whatever bloody excuse that loose dog had.

My dog was attacked by loose dogs (2 being very significant) when we were out on a leashed walk. It affected her. I worked with her, but it took a long time only to be attacked AGAIN and start from Ground Zero. 

These were not loose friendly dogs coming up to greet my GSD. The first was a Cane Corso. My pup was 5 months old, I am a 4'11" human. I am telling you right now, dancing in front of a dog like THAT will NOT stop it from trying to kill MY dog. Second time was a pack of 3 trying to gang up on my dog - a JRT, a BC and some other stupid yapper. I wasn't there for this tussle but my husband PUNCHED and KICKED the snot out of all three dogs because I guess after the first one ran off, the other two were too stupid to learn. 

Having leash reactivity from a dog attack is not about having a weak-nerved dog or not working with the dog's negative experience. 

Sheesh, some of the rubbish spewed on here just spins my head.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've had a dog charged by a Leonberger. There is nothing slow about them when they are breaking from the tunnel and going for your bitch. They are BIG dogs, easy twice the size of GSD, but they aren't slow.

No one got slapped, no one got bit, no one left angry. Yes, I blocked the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The Stig said:


> If I had a dog come at my dog aggressively (not saying at all that this was Lucie's case) I would retaliate w/ force to protect my dog. At that point, I wouldn't care about not laying a hand on the other dog, or whatever bloody excuse that loose dog had.
> 
> My dog was attacked by loose dogs (2 being very significant) when we were out on a leashed walk. It affected her. I worked with her, but it took a long time only to be attacked AGAIN and start from Ground Zero.
> 
> ...


Loose dogs, no owner in sight is a bit different that being in a class DESIGNED for puppies to play with each other. 

But, I agree that dogs get over stuff a lot quicker than we do, and if an incident causes reactivity, than it is probably more the owner tightening up an the leash and exuding fear than the dog remembering what happened to it. A dog with good nerves will get over a dog rushing into them and even a bite here and there if the owners dog not over-react, and compound the issue, and if the owners do not change their body language and increase their anxiety when they see dogs in the future.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Some Pups are shy and lack confidence. They go to these classes to build up that confidence. They shouldn't be subjected to the rough play of a gsd if it's not what the owner wants. 

The fact that the lady grabbed your dog's collar and told you she was uncomfortable and all you did was stand there and giggle means you're in the wrong. You're lucky it wasn't me because I would've smacked your dog so hard you would feel it. 

Owners like you are how dog fights get started in the dog parks. It's kinda funny that you're completely ignorant to the fact that your actions are the sole reason the situation escalated.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

By the way, I did try to block the Cane Corso. I also stood up tall and large as I possibly could, shouted and stomped at the dog. We did that little 'dancy' thing you call it, and I am a fit active individual. But dogs will ALWAYS be faster than a human, and he still managed to come around me to go for Janka's neck. I kicked him really hard on the nose and my husband came charging out, shouting and waving his arms and that dog finally let go. 

But this is not the case of Lucie's situation. As I said earlier, what's done is done and I doubt that inappropriate smack would have any lasting damage on Lucie. It was a good lesson with some very useful advice. So in the end, I am glad the OP shared her experiences so others may learn from it also.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

selzer said:


> Loose dogs, no owner in sight is a bit different that being in a class DESIGNED for puppies to play with each other.


I only replied the way I did because it seemed one of the posters had gone beyond a classroom setting, into a general case of any dog coming at our dog that just simple dancing around could prevent an altercation. 

No harm meant by that otherwise, just wanted to make known that there are different situations that call for different tactics. It is not a one size fit all, but yes I do agree if it is in a puppy class, then ... haha I would dance away too.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I was in a "*real"* obedience class as you call it and the trainers 1 year old female Leonberger that was in heat went for my female GSD that was about 7 months at the time and a lot smaller. I blocked the dog, my female seen her coming and went the other way, then class continued. I didn't slap that dog or the trainer and it certainly did not make my dog skiddish or fearful. I've had a golden puppy viciously attacked by an adult Rott and again no fear issues. A person can not blame all the fear issues that their dogs have on a dog that attacked them, that is just an excuse for either poor nerves or not continually working with the dog after it was involved in any kind of situation with another dog.


What does this have to do with anything? There are crappy trainers out there, you and OP have shown that, and no one is denying it. Where did I say it was okay to hit the dog...I actually said the opposite. 

A strong nerved dog can be very effected by continually being chased by other dogs....it's more easily "fixed" than a dog without strong nerves. But any puppy, of any nerve package, that is continually chased or bullied will develop behaviors accordingly. A friend at the club had a dog that was unbelievably attacked, by another dog when she was a puppy. I'm talking months of surgeries and rehab. Puppy is now a year old and isn't DA. Dog is also VERY genetically stable. I also have experience, like you, of attacks that haven't ruined dogs. 

HOWEVER, A LOT of dogs out there don't have a stellar nerve package, a lot of pet owners don't know this, unfortunately, until the dog doesn't recover being constantly bullied at dog parks and finally snaps. 

But, none of this matters. The GR may have been having a grand ol' time. The owner didn't like it. When money is involved it isn't a "too bad for them" situation. Unless the owner of the other dog is a complete jerk and doesn't give a rats behind if their dog is making people uncomfortable. In that case, well...

On another note, everyone is AGREEING that the hitting wasn't good. What I was discussing is OP's complete inability to take any responsibility in this. She was prompted a few times by the GR owner, the GR owner did not like what was happening. That should have been enough. What do we tell anyone around here that is uncomfortable with a situation in training? End it. She tried that, twice (first time OP blew her off, then OP ignored...then admitted the "trainer" was "too busy" working with someone else, so surprise, surprise, it escalated)...then chose to hit the dog (not something I would suggest or do). 

The only thing some people want to look at is the hitting, it's amazing how willing some are to completely judge a situation ignoring the context. The hitting was wrong, OP was wrong, the trainer was wrong...it was all wrong, imo. This whole conversation is going in circles...

OP: I'm mad and want to vent....
posters: Well you had some responsibility in this, the hitting was wrong...but you were too.
OP: No, my dog isn't mean, the lady hit her!
Posters: Right..the hitting was wrong...but you were too!
OP: Maybe I was a little wrong....BUT SHE HIT MY DOG!
Posters: Yeah...we get that. (frustration escalating) You were wrong on some fronts too, you should learn from this.
OP (and a few others): BUT SHE HIT HER, she's a PUPPY, I'm not wrong at all!
Posters:Yeah. We know, it's not right to hit a stranger's dog...just saying you could have prevented this, the other owner wasn't comfortable. 

And 'round and 'round we go....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> There is about a month difference in age I believe. There is not going to be a huge age difference. The woman that slapped the GSD would be horrified and probably slap my golden retriever puppy if she could see how he plays. The woman that did the slapping was being unrealistic and should not be bringing her dog to a class that is specifically a play date with other dogs.


Why is it okay for you to decide you know EXACTLY what kind of dog owner the GR's owner is, and what kind of dog the GR is...yet you think it's appalling for other's to make assumptions? Maybe her pup was showing some signs that it wasn't uncomfortable. The trainer was busy and OP was filling up water bowls and admitted she wasn't at the interaction. Only after people started questioning did she say she did in fact see everything. As far as I'm concerned, the GR could have been showing fear....NO ONE KNOWS, because the only person REALLY paying attention was the GR owner.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I whole-heartedly agree, DaniFani. 

And yes, this discussion is going around in circles... and whether there is something here to be learned at all, only the future can tell.

opcorn:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I read most of this novel, my opinion if this happened to me.

First of all I don't like the 'free for all' puppy classes, but to each their own.

If I were the 'golden' owner, I would have said something to the OP, the FIRST time she was uncomfortable, maybe held Lucie by the collar..

If I were Lucie's owner, I would have been LIVID if someone slapped my dog, however, if I had seen the GR owner was becoming weirded out and monitoring what was going on, I would have stepped in, stopped it, and spoke to the GR Owner to see what her issue was.

I would also be pretty peeved at the lack of supervision by the 'trainer'..

Been there done this , no one slapped my dog, but certainly been in a "free for all" class where there was little supervision, or should I say lack of..Like 'let em go at it".. Nope, sorry, I yanked my dog out of it after the 2nd 'free for all"...


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't think Lucie was affected by this she is still a very happy pup. 

And yes I was close enough by even though I was filling a water dish I was only a few feet away. 

I'm sorry some of you feel I should've catered to the other woman and her fears. An if this ever happens again I will know to talk to the other owner to prevent my pup from being slapped.

This was not a situation of Lucie trying to attack, stalk or even injure another pup. She did not come at the pup in a threatening manner she expressed a want to play and make friends.

But I'm going to remove this post bc some people are getting to heated over the situation and will more than likely be removing myself from this forum, even though I have found some information from other posts very useful bc this is my first time owning a GSD.

I needed to vent bc my pup has been through a lot in the past 3 months we have owner her bc she has been sick and spent countless hours at the vets office. And the same day she was slapped she spent a few hours at the vets office getting more samples taken she had a stressful day and that just added to it in my opinion.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> What does this have to do with anything? There are crappy trainers out there, you and OP have shown that, and no one is denying it. Where did I say it was okay to hit the dog...I actually said the opposite.
> 
> A strong nerved dog can be very effected by continually being chased by other dogs....it's more easily "fixed" than a dog without strong nerves. But any puppy, of any nerve package, that is continually chased or bullied will develop behaviors accordingly. A friend at the club had a dog that was unbelievably attacked, by another dog when she was a puppy. I'm talking months of surgeries and rehab. Puppy is now a year old and isn't DA. Dog is also VERY genetically stable. I also have experience, like you, of attacks that haven't ruined dogs.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Exactly


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Why is it okay for you to decide you know EXACTLY what kind of dog owner the GR's owner is, and what kind of dog the GR is...yet you think it's appalling for other's to make assumptions? Maybe her pup was showing some signs that it wasn't uncomfortable. The trainer was busy and OP was filling up water bowls and admitted she wasn't at the interaction. Only after people started questioning did she say she did in fact see everything. As far as I'm concerned, the GR could have been showing fear....NO ONE KNOWS, because the only person REALLY paying attention was the GR owner.


It still does not give her the right to slap a puppy that doesn't belong to her. There is no way that that should have happened .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> What does this have to do with anything? There are crappy trainers out there, you and OP have shown that, and no one is denying it. Where did I say it was okay to hit the dog...I actually said the opposite.
> 
> A strong nerved dog can be very effected by continually being chased by other dogs....it's more easily "fixed" than a dog without strong nerves. But any puppy, of any nerve package, that is continually chased or bullied will develop behaviors accordingly. A friend at the club had a dog that was unbelievably attacked, by another dog when she was a puppy. I'm talking months of surgeries and rehab. Puppy is now a year old and isn't DA. Dog is also VERY genetically stable. I also have experience, like you, of attacks that haven't ruined dogs.
> 
> ...


The bottom line is that no matter what the OP's dog was doing the other person could have gotten her dog out of there or picked it up. There were options. The OP was upset about someone hitting her dog. And I would appreciate you not calling any trainer I use crappy. I do my research and I do only what is best for my dogs. Accidents happen and I am able to accept that. I don't hold anything against the trainer(who is highly recommended and known) because her dog reacted. She moved quickly to get her dog and no harm done.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

To the OP, I'm sorry you had to experience this. Hopefully all involved can move forward.


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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

Everyone had great advice I will keep this all in mind should another situation arise. Whole I hope another one doesn't but who knows what the future holds. No hard feelings let all move forward.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> It still does not give her the right to slap a puppy that doesn't belong to her. There is no way that that should have happened .


:thinking: I don't know why you keep quoting me and saying this. I give up...I don't know how many other ways I can say no one should ever lay a hand on another person's dog.

Also, I read your post about your trainer as you using it as an example of a bad trainer. Sorry for the misunderstanding there. I'm not saying accidents don't happen...again, not sure where you get some of your arguments. If that leonberger had gone after your dog once...then again...maybe a third time...and nothing was being done really, then maybe I'd say it's a similar correlation. There was no "accident" in the OP not doing anything about her dog.

Oh, and picking anything up(toys, dog, baby, etc..) in front of a hyper puppy while the puppy (42 pounds here) is trying to play with it can be a disaster. It usually involves jumping and flailing dogs (picture the person with a little pom/chi hiding their dog in their arms as the big dogs jumps, bites, and tries to grab puppy...we've all seen it), sometimes amping up the excitement. My inlaws have three nasty little mini schnausers that will bite and grab onto anything you try and pick up in front of them (had a grand child snapped at this way). Picking up the victim does nothing to restrain the one doing the chasing, and usually just amps them up more.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

C'mon DaniFani, the story about the Leonberger was about blocking a dog rather than slapping a dog, as you well know. It was not about inept trainers. 

The OP has conceded, you and Martemchic have won, probably chased off another relatively new GSD owner, so why belabor this thread?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> C'mon DaniFani, the story about the Leonberger was about blocking a dog rather than slapping a dog, as you well know. It was not about inept trainers.
> 
> The OP has conceded, you and Martemchic have won, probably chased off another relatively new GSD owner, so why belabor this thread?


Oh lordie bee, Selzer. You need to take a break from the forum. Your hum drum, doom and gloom attitude is annoying...it's the internet, debate's are hard if you take everything as a personal attack. And EVERYTHING is up for debate on a forum.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is plain and simple. IMO the trainer is at fault as she did not have control over the class and paired the wrong puppies with each other. It is easy to blame either owner of either pup if you are more experienced than they are. Remember that once we, now as experienced owners/handlers/trainers, were once at that same level and we made mistakes, yet our dogs turned out OK.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Oh lordie bee, Selzer. You need to take a break from the forum. Your hum drum, doom and gloom attitude is annoying...it's the internet, debate's are hard if you take everything as a personal attack. *And EVERYTHING is up for debate on a forum*.


Why though? 

This was a personal attack. The gal told a story, about a puppy being slapped. That should have brought a lot of indignation. Instead she was jumped on. Someone said, the GR lady should have slapped her. Etc. 

Why did this have to be a debate? Someone might have mentioned as Diane did, what she would have done if the other owner was acting freaked out. That's fine. 

Saying, "I would have..." is so much better received than, "You should have." And the op would have walked away with a much more open mind about how the other person felt, or what she might have done differently. 

But when the needless pounding goes on, people's defenses go up, and they start clarifying and they start getting frustrated, and the hens here smell blood and soon they are all pecking away. 

Why should every story or rant be a debate? Its pretty boring on here lately, probably because so much stuff gets debated, and those that don't want to take a pounding just stay mum. 

It's disappointing how this thread went.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The Stig said:


> Oi. What a hot mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> Why though?
> 
> This was a personal attack. The gal told a story, about a puppy being slapped. That should have brought a lot of indignation. Instead she was jumped on. Someone said, the GR lady should have slapped her. Etc.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more!
A


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Op could've easily accepted some blame in the beginning. Instead she played the victim card over and over. So of course people who have owned way more Pups than her are going to speak up and call it like it is.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

simba405 said:


> Op could've easily accepted some blame in the beginning. Instead she played the victim card over and over. So of course people who have owned way more Pups than her are going to speak up and call it like it is.



That's part of the problem, unless you know her personally how do you know how many pups she's had? I've a reactive dog because, as a puppy, she was attacked by off leash dogs, this situation is very different. People have read in to this and come up with their own version of events. OP was there, gave her interpretation, has said she has taken on board advice. The fact it's a forum does not mean that's an excuse to continually bash somebody. If you don't think the OP is taking your advice or that of like minded others, leave and go on to a different thread.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Based on nothing more than her posts, people don't need to know her personally or be a rocket scientist to know this is clearly her first gsd pup.


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## LynneLittlefield (Nov 30, 2012)

martemchik said:


> We didn't scare off OP. She ran and got her mommy to help her.



This is why people like you shouldn't be on any forum. There should be a certain maturity level to post and you would not make the cut. You can't give your opinion without being insulting. Instead of making the op look bad you make yourself look bad.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LynneLittlefield said:


> This is why people like you shouldn't be on any forum. There should be a certain maturity level to post and you would not make the cut. You can't give your opinion without being insulting. Instead of making the op look bad you make yourself look bad.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I didn't see this comment, all I can say is WOW. Somebody might need a time out.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Why though?
> 
> Why should every story or rant be a debate? Its pretty boring on here lately, probably because so much stuff gets debated, and those that don't want to take a pounding just stay mum.
> 
> It's disappointing how this thread went.


She asked for advice in the OP...

She asked, "did I overreact?"

There were two possible answers...you did the right thing by reacting that way because no one should slap your dog, and then there were people that pointed out that the reaction was probably too much because she herself made a mistake as well that DIRECTLY led to that issue.

It's like...if I run a stop sign, and you T-bone me, and I get out and start yelling at you for hitting my car...wouldn't you focus on the fact that I also made a mistake? Or should we just go around telling people that if someone does something you don't like you're allowed to scream and shout at them all you want even though you clearly could've done something to avoid it?

The point is...the OP's mindset is exactly why people don't like dog parks and why dog parks get dangerous. Very rarely is the dog attacking another dog at a dog park truly DA...its usually something like this where one dog just has a rougher playing style that another one, and the other owner is standing there thinking everything is fine and not caring how the other person feels.

As a GSD owner, you have to accept the fact that you won't have the sweetest dog in the world, and a lot of people are going to be uncomfortable about letting their dog play with your dog. You shouldn't have the attitude that YOU and YOUR dog are there to teach others what kind of play is acceptable...just deal with the fact that some people will not be comfortable with a certain level of play, while others out there are going to scare the crap out of you with what they find acceptable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> She asked for advice in the OP...
> 
> She asked, "did I overreact?"
> 
> ...


The OP asked if she over reacted by yelling at the lady for slapping her dog. No matter what the situation no person has a right to slap anything that doesn't belong to them. I don't care how either dog was acting. Start a new thread directed at that. This thread is about someone touching someone else's dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> The OP asked if she over reacted by yelling at the lady for slapping her dog. No matter what the situation no person has a right to slap anything that doesn't belong to them. I don't care how either dog was acting. Start a new thread directed at that. This thread is about someone touching someone else's dog.


No its not. If it was the thread would've been, "I was at class with my dog and a lady slapped my dog." Not a 6 paragraph explanation of the situation.

Are you her brother? Is she getting the rest of the family to join in the fight?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And These Are the Days of Our Lives....


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Didn't read all the posts, but I agree with those saying it was mishandled all the way around.

I would certainly be upset if anyone hit my dog, but then again, you have an older, high drive, intense breed, going after a younger, and likely, softer breed of puppy. 

GSD puppies play ROUGH and can be quite vocal, I could see how that would alarm the lady with the Golden, who was just trying to protect her own young puppy from having a bad experience, like any good owner would.

Maybe she handled it wrong, but what was her alternative? I know my own GSD is **** on wheels when playing with other dogs.

Obviously you weren't there to intervene and the instructor wasn't helping by the sounds of it.

I've been on the receiving end of a Golden play pouncing on my reactive dog during obedience class. When it happened the second time (she seemed to believe her dog was ready for off leash work and kept dropping the leash), the assistant instructor marched right over and told her not to let it happen again, for which I was thankful. 

I think it's unfair to allow your dog to behave like that when the other dog's owner is asking you to control your dog because they are not comfortable with the intensity of the rough housing. 

Anyway, moving forward, I'm sure your pup will recover, so let this be a lesson learned. Respect other owners wishes if they want the play to stop because they feel it's too rough. You don't know what experiences that puppy has had with other dogs, and there may be a good reason they want the play session to be a little calmer.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Thinking the way the op does is why dog parks are so bad. With that said I'm sure the majority of us thought the same way at one point. It takes a while and maybe a few experiences to realize just the sight of a German Shepherd makes people nervous. Add in the fact that they play rough and people get uneasy. 

My dog is nice and friendly but I have a very hard time getting my friends with dogs to hang out. No one wants to hang out with an 80 lb dark Sable no matter what you tell people. They already assume that thing is going to hurt their dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> . Someone said, the GR lady should have slapped her. Etc.


No I said It wouldn't have been the dog I was slapping and it wouldn't have been. It wasn't the dogs fault the owner was irresponsible. 

Every-time we post on a public forum we leave ourselves open. 

I re-learned that again recently when I casually mentioned I was getting Dude neutered today. 

The difference here is I didn't go crying and run away. I put on my big girl panties and took the criticism, explained my reasoning and the thread seems to have thankfully died. 

The OP doesn't think she did anything wrong and that's the difference. IMO. I freely admit I've screwed it up and the choice is now out of my hands. I've tried and tried and I still don't know what I'm doing wrong but that's for my thread and not this one. 

OP needs to take her lumps and move on and this thread will die too!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> No I said It wouldn't have been the dog I was slapping and it wouldn't have been. It wasn't the dogs fault the owner was irresponsible.
> 
> Every-time we post on a public forum we leave ourselves open.
> 
> ...


I think Selzer is talking about this comment.



alexg said:


> I think the owner of the GR puppy should have slapped the owner of the GSD puppy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I think Selzer is talking about this comment.



Wow oops totally missed that one. 



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## andrea04 (Feb 2, 2014)

LynneLittlefield said:


> This is why people like you shouldn't be on any forum. There should be a certain maturity level to post and you would not make the cut. You can't give your opinion without being insulting. Instead of making the op look bad you make yourself look bad.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I didn't get my mommy for help. I don't need anyone's help. She's been to the same class before when her GSD was a puppy. She's only giving her opinion like everyone else is. Maybe you're the ones who can't handle someone else's opinion. Bc if you read all the threads you would see where ppl said I should be slapped... How is that right??


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> And These Are the Days of Our Lives....


 :crazy::wild:



andrea04 said:


> I didn't get my mommy for help. I don't need anyone's help. She's been to the same class before when her GSD was a puppy. She's only giving her opinion like everyone else is. Maybe you're the ones who can't handle someone else's opinion. Bc if you read all the threads you would see where ppl said I should be slapped... How is that right??
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I think the gal you quoted was talking to the gal who made the rude comments... not to you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJ, the gal she quoted was her Momma, so I think she knows who that is. 

But whatever. 

Shepherdmom, you've been a member here since 2011. You own 4 dogs. Whatever. If you do get your feelings hurt, and leave, well, you know where to go to get the information you need if one of your dogs has something weird going on. The site will still be here and people will probably still remember you. And, Dude is six months old, he isn't exactly a lost cause yet. 

When we pound on a newbie, right out of the gate:

I just got a new GSD puppy!!! 

Poster 1: He's cute, congrats. 

Poster 2: I wouldn't have bought from that breeder, they are a BYB, and you are supporting BYBs, and your dog is probably going to die before it is four years old from some terrible genetic disease that will make it eat your small children and break out in boils.

Poster 3. I agree they are a BYB, but your dog might not break out in boils. 

What are new posters supposed to think? 

We USED to have a lot of people that could help with physical, and behavioral problems. Now a lot of them are off on facebook and have left this place to the young, loud-mouthed know it alls. 

If Jean or Diane or Chris or Leah or any of the more popular people, came on here and said that someone slapped their puppy, everyone would have fallen over eachother to give her their condolences, and express their anger on her account, and support whatever reaction they had to the situation. 

Instead, we have a bunch of pretty new people beating up on a newbie. You all ought to be proud of yourselves. Newbies should not be coddled. No. But there is a way to voice your opinions about a situation without deliberately causing drama. 

You could say, 

"I would have probably gotten my dog away when the lady first started grabbing the collar, but hindsight is 20/20. Don't lose sleep over it, your puppy will be fine."

That would have given her the information that you think that she should have stepped in earlier without starting an all out hen party. 

There are a whole lot more than 2 answers. There is, "No way should she have slapped your dog! But your response maybe caused just as much damage to your dog than the slaps." There are a lot of answers, and a lot better ways to deliver them. 

There is nothing wrong with being direct either. We do not have to dance around things, but we can learn to put forth advice in a way that it might be accepted rather than just starting drama. At least let people come on and find that we do have good information here, before we go and clean their clock.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Seltzer she is not that new. Op has been here since February or so her profile says and has posted 79 messages. I'm with you about jumping on newbies, but I don't think she qualifies. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> If Jean or Diane or Chris *or Leah or any of the more popular people, *came on here and said that someone slapped their puppy, everyone would have fallen over eachother to give her their condolences, and express their anger on her account, and support whatever reaction they had to the situation.
> 
> 
> .


Leah is going to be ecstatic that she's one of the popular people. Hold that thought! I have to go tell her!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Leah is going to be ecstatic that she's one of the popular people. Hold that thought! I have to go tell her!


I was just thinking the same thing!!! LOL! She'll love this!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm heartbroken that I'm not listed. I thought I was LOVED.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I love you Michelle. You and I must be on the "other" list. LOL!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I love you Michelle. You and I must be on the "other" list. LOL!


That's me. Always on the Other list over there reading tidbits like "you catch more bees with honey than vinegar" and wondering why anyone would want to catch bees and since when did they like vinegar.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm here, I'm here!! <takes a bow> <waves to her adoring fans> 

Please, no need to throw flowers at my post. Just a simple non-refundable donation to my tattoo fund will suffice.:wild:

Okay, I'm gonna go log off here for another week or month until you guys require my infinite wisdom and wit again. So long!!

.
.
.
.
.
Again, with the flowers?? Okay, if you must!


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

18 pages of going in circles opcorn: It hasn't gotten shut down yet, so I think that's a record. They must have been waiting for Leah.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Having been a former teacher and having been through quite a few classes, the trainer should have been all over this. The trainer should have seen play that might have been one-sided or too rough, seen an owner becoming upset at the level of play, seen an owner who wasn't picking up that the other owner was upset about things. The trainer should have alerted both owners to intervene/redirect.

Last summer I had a similar situation. I joined another trainer's class. Three dogs on leash lunged at my dog that night with teeth bared, one actually making contact, and instead of my dog having a good experiene he shut down and refused to do anything at all. I was mad. I went and cursed all the way home. I emailed my regular trainer and asked if I could use the remaining credit and switch to her class which started a few weeks later. Do I think the other owners were wrong for not keeping their dogs close? Yea. Do I think the trainer was wrong in not warning people to sort of give my dog space after the first incident. Yea. Was I wrong for assuming the other dogs were safe to walk past? Yea. Bunch of wrongs. I switched classes.

In my case there was no grabbing or slapping. I would say the first time she grabbed my dog I would have removed my dog from the situation and kept him engaged elswhere away from someone who would grab or slap my dog. Was she in the wrong for grabbing your dog? No. You have to separate them if you think there is a problem. Slapping, not good. After the grab my dog wouldn't have gone back after that dog again even if it meant we went out for a potty break or went on leash.

Going with mishandled by everyone -- however, you PAY the trainer to be in control so I would be much madder at the trainer than a protective and inept pet parent.

However, no one should have slapped your dog and no one on this board should say you should be slapped. That all is uncalled for.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> I'm here, I'm here!! <takes a bow> <waves to her adoring fans>
> 
> Please, no need to throw flowers at my post. Just a simple non-refundable donation to my tattoo fund will suffice.:wild:
> 
> ...


:congratulations:


:rofl:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Everyone is assuming that the GSD puppy was out of control. The OP stated that the puppy never made contact with other puppy, but really wanted to play. The OP also said that the trainer was busy with another puppy, let's assume the trainer is half way decent, which means the trainer could have very well seen everything but did not think that it warranted her to step in. There was no growling, no yelping, nothing that would say "there is a problem over here". Since we don't know the whole story I choose to believe that the other owned freaked out and since it's her first dog that really could have happened. The golden puppy did not run away when it's owner was slapping the GSD, which leads me to believe that the golden was not afraid.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I guess in my class we tried to make freaked out owners feel comfortable too. Maybe my regular trainer is exceptional and has 8 pairs of eyes. Maybe watching 30 Jr. High kids at a time taught me that watching 8-10 dogs is not that hard. Maybe the trainer could have called out "Ms. x go get dog y because Ms. z is uncomfortable with the level of play so maybe you could redirect dog y for a bit."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Back from class. 

Took Babs. Walked by the Lackland terrier to get to the field, and it lunged almost connecting with Babsy. I said, "Oh NO YOU DON'T!" and walked Babsy out of the situation, while his owner tried to figure out what happened.

This is advanced obedience, all dogs have CGCs. No dogs are there to socialize or interact at all. 

This is a dog that last year BIT Gretta. Should I have smacked the dog? Should I have kicked it? Looking backwards, I should have probably walked around all the lawn chairs and stayed out of its vicinity all together, because I know the little toe-rag is dog aggressive. I know he is sporting his e-collar and prong collar for a reason. I did not believe he was rehabilitated, but I also thought we had plenty of room, and we all walk between the chairs to get to the field. 

He and his wife have two of these dogs. The female seems ok, or maybe the wife is better at handling the bitch than the man is at handling the dog. I will say, it would not have gone over well at all if I would have smacked that dog. 

Five minutes later the dog hiked up its leg and peed on its owner. Ah well, sometimes there is justice. The dog went after my dog because the owner is totally oblivious to his dog's body language. Guess he is oblivious to when his dog needs to pee too. Or maybe that was more of a statement than a need to relieve itself.

Not sure if this is on topic or not. I cannot imagine slapping someone else's dog. I did not slap this dog when it bit my dog last year. And I did not smack it when it went after Babs tonight, and there was no playing involved in this. I was angry and let him know it last year. Tonight I was angry, but since the dog did not connect, because I intervened, I did not belabor it. The man has a problem dog, he thinks it is fixed. But I think he knows now that it isn't and my hammering him about it, wouldn't make it any better.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I like to use the phrase "Control your dog please". It seems to relay the info with a slight but non-confrontational put down.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A good trainer will say, "Watch your dog!" when they see trouble brewing. But, it does depend on the class. Like tonight. Some of the time, the trainer is watching us training our dogs and making suggestions, and some of the time she had us taking a break so she could set up the next stage of the training. If you have half a dozen or more dogs, your eyes cannot be on every one of them all the time. But, if you have a nasty little problem-dog, with an oblivious owner, you will probably spend a higher proportion of your time watching that dog. 

My take on this is that the trainer was familiar and comfortable with the shepherd, and did not see anything that needed to be corrected in the shepherd's actions, and was busy with another class member. They only have two eyes, and eyes generally follow each other. So, she probably wasn't aware of the problem.

Since it seems the GR owner needed more maintenance than usual, it was perhaps a fail on the trainer's part, but we weren't there and it is possible, that she just wasn't aware that there was really any problem with the way the pups were acting.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

There probably wasn't actually a problem, except with the owner of GR. However, since there became grabbing, yelling, and slapping, there became a problem and the trainer should have gotten involved either to explain, support, intervene, separate, whatever. In my school, if people start grabbing, yelling, and slapping my trainer would notice and fix the situation, however it needed to be fixed (human or dog or any combination thereof). I personally don't pay for chaos in dog class, and I am not too in the off-leash dog park play as part of school either. We are there to train. My dogs can play at home.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

When my GSD was 9 mths old we started looking after a 5mth golden retriever for a friend when they were away (and because it was a gorgeous pup). The play between the two dogs was always supervised but I lost count of the number of times my friend panicked when she watched the dogs play. Our GSD looked really rough but every time we gave them a time out, the GR pup was the one to start play again, he was also the one in charge and was quick to tell our dog if she was being too rough and she listened every single time. All the owner saw was a GSD with it's mouth on her pup. No harm was done, the dogs were great friends, all play was supervised and the owner eventually calmed down. 


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Meanwhile back at the ranch........


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Back from class.
> 
> Took Babs. Walked by the Lackland terrier to get to the field, and it lunged almost connecting with Babsy. I said, "Oh NO YOU DON'T!" and walked Babsy out of the situation, while his owner tried to figure out what happened.
> 
> ...


WAIT!!! YOU LET ONE OF YOUR DOGS GET BIT BY ANOTHER DOG!!!???!!!

Guess your dance classes and blocking haven't been paying off. And here I am thinking you had the perfect solution to this situation. Guess it fails sometimes.

You know what doesn't fail? Grabbing a dog by its collar.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

For everyone posting how their dogs play rough with certain dogs...there's a huge difference when the dogs do it on a regular basis, and when both parties consent to that kind of play.

You don't ever force your dog's playing style on a stranger...doesn't matter what the situation is, if they're uncomfortable, get your dog away from theirs, period.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

> You don't ever force your dog's playing style on a stranger...doesn't matter what the situation is, if they're uncomfortable, get your dog away from theirs, period.


This ^ -- the GSD owner should have respected the person's concerns. The trainer should have seen it and looked after BOTH paying clients. My trainer wants ALL clients and dogs happy so they come back for more. Chaos and dog-slapping does not equate to a good reputation for the school and repeat clients. No, the person should not have slapped the dog, either. That was not right and I would be hysterical if someone did that to my dog, but I wouldn't let anyone in the position to do that to my dog either.

Anyone on the Golden board? This person telling the tale from the other side? That might be interesting.

Again, to the OP -- I do think everyone contributed to a mess. If the situation were approached any number of other ways on everyone's part this huge thread wouldn't exsist.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> WAIT!!! YOU LET ONE OF YOUR DOGS GET BIT BY ANOTHER DOG!!!???!!!
> 
> Guess your dance classes and blocking haven't been paying off. And here I am thinking you had the perfect solution to this situation. Guess it fails sometimes.
> 
> You know what doesn't fail? Grabbing a dog by its collar.


This is a good point. Grabbing the collar of the over zealous dog is the best way. I've had to do this once with another owners dog and have had my dog taken by the collar also which is totally acceptable to me as long as they're not abusing it. 

But one failure of collar grabbing is the dog turning and nipping or trying to bite. I guess it depends on the situation and mental state of the dog at the time. But, the collar is my first choice with rough play. 

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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Cara Fusinato said:


> Anyone on the Golden board? This person telling the tale from the other side? That might be interesting.


I don't agree with the way the GR's owner handled the situation but I think I understand it. She may have panicked. That's when people handle in a reflex, which is human. She may have a post on a GR forum 
The only one accountable is the trainer.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Here's something that strikes me about this thread (made it to page 10 & then read p 19)-- On the board in general (not this thread) there seems to be a lot of "protect your pup/dog" "don't let XYZ" (frequently accompanied by phrases like "I'd drop kick the XYZ") yet here when the GR's person tried to do that, she is somehow at fault. 

Step back and think about it. Recall this thread the next time you are tempted to get all up in arms about the interaction between dogs (and dog owners).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> Here's something that strikes me about this thread (made it to page 10 & then read p 19)-- On the board in general (not this thread) there seems to be a lot of "protect your pup/dog" "don't let XYZ" (frequently accompanied by phrases like "I'd drop kick the XYZ") yet here when the GR's person tried to do that, she is somehow at fault.
> 
> Step back and think about it. Recall this thread the next time you are tempted to get all up in arms about the interaction between dogs (and dog owners).










Thought exactly the same thing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thinking the same thing ! people at the ready with their pepper spray.
On that note your dog may annoy someone or someone's dog and that may just happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> You know what doesn't fail? Grabbing a dog by its collar.


 
Right and as your going to grab the dog that is not even up to your knees by the collar and as quick as can be you miss and the dog goes around you and grabs your dog anyway...that sounds like a fail to me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

middleofnowhere said:


> Here's something that strikes me about this thread (made it to page 10 & then read p 19)-- On the board in general (not this thread) there seems to be a lot of "protect your pup/dog" "don't let XYZ" (frequently accompanied by phrases like "I'd drop kick the XYZ") yet here when the GR's person tried to do that, she is somehow at fault.
> 
> Step back and think about it. Recall this thread the next time you are tempted to get all up in arms about the interaction between dogs (and dog owners).


Oh...it depends on which dog is the one being "hurt."

Seriously...look into it.

If the GSD is the one "under attack" MURDER THE OTHER DOG!!!

If the GSD is the one "attacking" WELL IT WAS JUST PLAYING ROUGH...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Except that this was a puppy socialization class. 

Everyone knew that these were puppies. Everyone was there for the puppies to interact with eachother. 

If I was the GR lady, and the other owner was not freaking, and the trainer seemed ok with what was going on, I would not have retaliated towards the dog, but I would make a decision after class on whether or not this is helpful for my dog. 

If you are at PetsMart, and some dog comes rushing at your dog, and the owner is like, "don't worry, he's friendly" that is a whole other ball of twine. 

It's like when Bear-Bear got shot at the dog park. Bear-Bear was a veteran of the dog park and played fine with dogs. The GSD owner was a newbie, had his dog on lead, and when he saw the other dog coming, he shot the other dog and killed him. 

If you are taking a dog to a dog park or to a socialization class, expect there to be interaction. If you can't handle it, don't go! If it isn't going the way you think it should, there are things you can do that do not involve smacking the dog. 

And, Martemchic, yeah, the dog came out of the blue last year, and I never saw it until it was on my dog. I got her away and she was fine. We did not retaliate. Since, I have been messing with dogs for nearly half a century, one time a dog actually got by me and got to one of my many dogs. I will stick with my blocking the other dog -- never said dancing, that was the other guy. I step in front and block the other dog. Not that hard, really. 

Oh, and, grabbing the other dog's collars can get you bitten, either by their dog or your dog.

Oh and jafo, if you let dogs grab collars, be prepared to have a dog get stuck there, it is very dangerous, and usually takes two people to get them free when it happens.

Wolfy dog, one slap is perhaps a panic reaction. Two slaps doesn't sound like panic. It sounds like someone who needs to have a bit of education.

You all can't handle people barking at your dog, or petting your dog, but you are perfectly fine with someone slapping your dog. That's pretty wow, really.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

We did "puppy play time" 2-3 times after class. The pups were all around the same age. 

But let me tell you - I didn't see much value and stopped participating. Group classes in a controlled setting -YES, loved it. 

There were too many different breeds and some just don't hit it off. There was a women that would gasp whenever Rusty came around her dog. I could see he made her uncomfortable and would direct him back to me. 

Then there was a women who came with her cattle dog pup...boy did Rusty and him play well - same style of play - rough, vocal, high energy -both full of slobber

But I have protected my dog before - in class by me body blocking a dog that was passing on leash and lunged (owner quickly gained control). I kicked a dog that escaped through it's fence to come after Rusty when we were out walking one night. Actually two escaped and they were both coming at us but only one made contact with Rusty - it's the one that I kicked - he did retreat after that :/

I would have been very upset to see my dog slapped in the face. I wasn't there of course but just keep picturing a "helicopter pet mom". lol

Perhaps after this you will not see value in this type of setting - a free for all and only let Lucy play with dogs and owners you know.

Good luck


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Selzer, I was referring to humans grabbing the collar. Not the dog grabbing the others collar. It's a better way of controlling the situation than slapping the dog. That's all I'm trying to say and agree with. I also know that for myself, I do watch my dog as I don't want someone nipped or scratched and the person thinking the dog did it out of aggression. He can get vocal at times and it can be intimidating. But I know he is just excited. They don't. 

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this wasn't the case in this class , but found this interesting Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?

maybe the owner of the retriever had some bad experience with a GSD previously so was being the "helicopter parent" .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Here's something that strikes me about this thread (made it to page 10 & then read p 19)-- On the board in general (not this thread) there seems to be a lot of "protect your pup/dog" "don't let XYZ" (frequently accompanied by phrases like "I'd drop kick the XYZ") yet here when the GR's person tried to do that, she is somehow at fault.
> 
> Step back and think about it. Recall this thread the next time you are tempted to get all up in arms about the interaction between dogs (and dog owners).


Ok well if we are moving of the bashing? I can chime in here.

I am one of the protect your dog advocates, Through a combination of skill, luck and brass balls my guys have never been struck and I have never had to lay hands on a loose dog.  

Yes "now" the OP knows what she should have done. But the GR owner is not without blame here! This situation is much different than loose dogs on the street! If you are "willingly taking your dog into a socialization sitting, you can't be rolling in there with an "I'm gonna slap the crap out of any dog that does something I don't care for to my dog attitude!"

I expect people to exercise some kind of common sense in that type of situation. You are technically putting your dog at risk, if you can't handle any kind of dog dog interaction...then stay away!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Wolfy dog, one slap is perhaps a panic reaction. Two slaps doesn't sound like panic. It sounds like someone who needs to have a bit of education.


Selzer, take a deep breath and a cup of tea....Some one asked to look at the point of the Golden's owner. I did, that's all. No need to prove me wrong or right for that matter. It's time to play with the dogs.
:doggieplayball:


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Totally don't blame you for reacting, I would of slapped the women if she slapped my puppy - would of been totally wrong, but my reaction would of been instant.

I understand how you must be feeling. I understand what it is like to be around people with quite gentle breeds like Golden Retrievers that are over-sensitive to allowing their GR around more powerful breeds like GSD. I understand some of these type of owners create problems where there should be none and end up raising a nervous fearful GR because of their behaviour and go to great lengths to ostracise German Shepherds. I have personally experienced this.

GSDs, even at this young age, are rough noisy players and some people are not comfortable with this. This woman is obviously not comfortable with GSDs, she may have already had a bad experience or one previously with another dog. It is important to be aware that not all people are comfortable with their other breed dog playing with a GSD.

Obedience training should be just that - training your puppy in obedience and teaching your puppy to ignore all the other dogs. Part of obedience involves doing exercises like weaving in between a line of dogs and you need to have your puppy focus on you as you are weaving, you also need to be able to have your puppy focus on you if you are in the line and another dog is weaving. Obedience training imo is not for socialisation with other dogs, I really don't think the trainer should of allowed this, even if the class hadn't started, people should be encouraging their puppy to focus on them only and to ignore all the other puppies.

I also think you should of accepted this woman was being over-sensitive by following them around, annoying as this is, but you should have acknowledged this and removed your puppy from this GR, you should be been more sensitive to the situation.

If it were me, I would return to obedience training because it is so beneficial for a breed like GSD, they really do need this and helps build a bond between you and your puppy plus establishes control for you. If you are not comfortable going back, find another OB school. I would also suggest you don't use OB training as an opportunity for your puppy to socialise but to train your puppy to ignore other dogs - this will benefit you in the future.

In terms of socialising, if you could go to a dog park if there are other similar type dogs there or find people with dogs that would be suitable for playing. 

Keep your OB training for just that - obedience training rather than a socialisation class.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> this wasn't the case in this class , but found this interesting Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?
> 
> maybe the owner of the retriever had some bad experience with a GSD previously so was being the "helicopter parent" .


Thanks for posting this, I haven't read this before, explains everything perfectly and is very easy to comprehend 

Should be a sticky for explaining why GSDs behave the way they do especially in dog parks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> Selzer, take a deep breath and a cup of tea....Some one asked to look at the point of the Golden's owner. I did, that's all. No need to prove me wrong or right for that matter. It's time to play with the dogs.
> :doggieplayball:


Since I could not slap someone else's puppy, I can find myself in their shoes, so I just can't get her point of view at all. I don't understand why you feel attacked by me, by what I said. I just said that it doesn't sound like a panic reaction with two slaps, and that she needs to be educated. 

The trainer of this puppy socialization class ought to be doing that. 

On Tuesdays and Thursdays I train alongside GRs of all ages. 
And there are labs too, Toby, Max, and another Lab in the other class. Actually, the only dogs to ever charge me in a class were chocolate labs. But whatever. I bring the sheps. Sometimes other people have a shep too. GRs are large dogs (if you consider a shepherd large). They have lots of energy. They can be a handful. They can also be rather soft. I get all that. 

What I don't get is how anyone can feel that they should punish another person's puppy in a puppy socialization class. Why, two days later, we are still talking about this is crazy. If those of you who think the OP is totally wrong and the GR lady was the wronged party, than shouldn't the trainer have explained to her what her puppy was doing and how she should go about modifying the puppy's behavior? Would that not be the purpose of having a trainer in a puppy socialization class?

The reason I want to smack the GR lady, is because puppies tend to be a bit more sensitive than adults, and for a stranger to act the way she did to this puppy, could very well cause the puppy to distrust strangers. All we need, right? An aloof dog more distrustful of strangers. As the op's dog never made any contact with the GR, it is highly doubtful that anything the dog might do, any type of rough play which did not get the opportunity to happen, would be less traumatic for her dog, than a couple of smacks from a stranger would be for the GSD.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> On Tuesdays and Thursdays I train alongside GRs of all ages.
> GRs are large dogs (if you consider a shepherd large). They have lots of energy. They can be a handful. They can also be rather soft. I get all that.
> 
> .


As the owner of 2 GSD's and 2 goldens I can say that I agree with this. My older golden is the same size as my male GSD and the puppy just turned a year and he will be close to the same size. The golden puppy was way more of a handful then both GSD's. Both goldens can hold their own. The male GSD gets put in his place by the golden if he keeps pushing his buttons and the GSD backs down. The golden puppy has always held his own with Midnite and Midnite plays rough. I don't consider either of my goldens soft.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well crazy still seems to be holding sway here?? So let me say for the record "I" am firmly opposed to slapping other peoples dogs in a puppy socialization class!

I suppose others are free to slap away but one should be prepared for the consequences. Some folks don't make good choices!


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

I agree with everyone mentioning its not the golden owner's business or right to physically correct your pup. She should have removed her pup and expressed her concern with the trainer if she felt that uncomfortable. The puppy class is there for you all to learn and there is no mention at all of the trainer having any part in the situation until they were offering a refund. I would not go back. 

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