# Aggressive young puppy



## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

My female German Shepherd is several days over two months old and i have had her for almost 2 weeks. We have bonded very well, but i am concerned about her aggressiveness. I immediately noticed the puppy had alot of drive, that i realized may need to be harnessed. As she has grown over these past two weeks she has become a very mouthy dog. I understand that puppies bite constantly, and that is to be expected. At play she becomes over aggressive biting, holding and shaking while growling. She stalks and then makes an attack towards any part of you that she can. When told no, or faced with any resistance ( i absolutely DO NOT hit her, I may grab her by the scruff of the neck, or hold her muzzle shut but that is it.) She reacts by becoming more aggressive, growling, snarling, baring her teeth and barking. Keep in mind she is not even nine weeks old. I realize this has the potential to be a huge problem, as she is already getting bigger and stronger. Over 20 lbs at 2 months old. In another month this behavior will become dangerous and she has already drawn all sorts of blood from the whole family. The book I bought says to consult a behaviorist immediately about this type of behavior.

here is a picture for reference, i only wish she was as sweet as she looks


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I hate to break it to you, but this is totally normal behavior especially from a workingline or high drive dog. Keep shoving toys in her mouth, exercise a lot, play with her every time she comes to you instead of scruffing or holding her mouth shut, and laugh about what a little beast she is and how many scratches and bites she gets in when you are too slow with the toy. She will out grow it so hold on to your sense of humor. 

At this point, she is not even remotely in danger of becoming vicious or in need of a behaviorist.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

This isn't my first shepherd, and my grandparents raised white shepherds for over 20 years. They nor I have never seen a puppy this young with its ears back, fur up, tail arched, baring its teeth and snapping in the manor that she does. I'm just very concerned with her because despite alot of socialization my last shepherd who was related to her was very dog aggressive and killed a smaller dog, and severely injured another after they ran up to her on walks. Yes she is from czech lines.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Normal. We call them landsharks.

Have you read this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/85888-teaching-bite-inhibition.html


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

My pup is 9 weeks old and no growling at all. But I picked him out based on that. When I pick out a GSD I look for that growling and extra aggressive no fear behavior and pick a pup that's more in the middle.

You probably got the aggressive pup out of the liter. Its a good thing and a bad thing based on what's happening now. She will calm down, its her way of playing. Will certainly be a fun dog once she gets out of the biting stage.

You better socialize her, she will be a great family dog but may not be that way to people coming over.

I agree with Elaine keep shoving toys in her mouth.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

battle scars!


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> This isn't my first shepherd, and my grandparents raised white shepherds for over 20 years. They nor I have never seen a puppy this young with its ears back, fur up, tail arched, baring its teeth and snapping in the manor that she does. I'm just very concerned with her because despite alot of socialization my last shepherd who was related to her was very dog aggressive and killed a smaller dog, and severely injured another after they ran up to her on walks. Yes she is from czech lines.


Then why did you choose another one related? Just curious...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sounds pretty normal to me. You're going to have to learn to redirect all of this biting to some kind of toy so the puppy learns skin isn't for biting. 

Other than that this is pretty normal behavior for a GSP. I still wear t-shirts and sweat pants with puppy rips in them today.

Lucy's first week home she ripped my nose clean open. It looked like some cut my nose with a razor blade.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It's possible that your pup has some fear aggression beginning, but for now, I would consider this normal landshark behavior. More exercise, more interactive play, and begin positive obedience training. Most of us can and do brag about how much blood we shed when our pups were young.


My guess is that you have never seen a pup like this and aren't handling it well making the pup worse. If you have had standard american dogs in the past, this could be a huge shock to your system.

Where did you get your puppy?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Sounds normal to me, but you might want to find someone who has experience with working GSDs and get some advice. There are several Schutzhund clubs in Michigan depending on where you live, there may be one close by.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Two video threads to search for: (Not the actual links but the keywords to search for)

So you want a high drive puppy

All she wants to do is bite

Avoid using your hands, she's an infant and doesn't understand that your hands are not an extension of your mouth.

Landshark!

Oh, someone's elses thread with the puppy not happy about crate training...too funny she's fiercely stalking her crate.

Help! Smarter thread people!


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Sounds like you got yourself a landshark. This is common with GSD puppies. You just need to redirect her biting with toys. Obedience classes would be a good start for you and your puppy. You both will learn to work and respect one another. As cute as they are, they also come with a handful of headaches, though, once trained, it will get much easier.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Sounds like a puppy to me!


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Play harder, play more, don't be afraid..go with it. Oh, and my one year old puppy still "growls" when we play tug! He barks too! ITs fun.!

My husband, who is not a dog person at all...still gets worried when Tim growls when he plays. LOL


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

My WL pup was like that from day one. When I brought him home (after a trip from Slovakia) he was pooped. I had my wife let my bitch out while we were sitting in the yard with him in my lap, and when he saw her he lit up like "who are you in my yard?". Redirect. Hand feed. Tether it to you by putting the leash around your waist. Always have a toy and they will learn that is the reward. 

I personally believe they realize by your reaction that is unaccceptable behavior. Not by correction but by lack of reward. You need to mark the good behavior, like taking the toy and play it up like it's the best thing in the world. You'll soon find as you bond that the pup will learn what pleases you and what gets them the reward.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

. I have never seen a puppy this young with its ears back, fur up, tail arched, baring its teeth and snapping in the manor that she does.


Well in my opinion this is not normal puppy behaviour. A little wild and uninhibited sure, but not this fear aroused aggressive posturing .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Freddy said:


> My WL pup was like that from day one. When I brought him home (after a trip from Slovakia) he was pooped. I had my wife let my bitch out while we were sitting in the yard with him in my lap, and when he saw her he lit up like "who are you in my yard?". Redirect. Hand feed. Tether it to you by putting the leash around your waist. Always have a toy and they will learn that is the reward.
> 
> I personally believe they realize by your reaction that is unaccceptable behavior. Not by correction but by lack of reward. You need to mark the good behavior, like taking the toy and play it up like it's the best thing in the world. You'll soon find as you bond that the pup will learn what pleases you and what gets them the reward.


This is what I did. All of it.



carmspack said:


> . I have never seen a puppy this young with its ears back, fur up, tail arched, baring its teeth and snapping in the manor that she does.
> 
> 
> Well in my opinion this is not normal puppy behaviour. A little wild and uninhibited sure, but not this fear aroused aggressive posturing .
> ...


I agree. I had the same issues with my Dutch Shepherd at 10 weeks old. Took him to a behaviorist and we worked on those issues the entire time I had him. His reactivity was something he was never able to get over although it was GREATLY, GREATLY improved with time and training. It was a lack of confidence in his case and the inability to ever truly recover and relax in stressful situations - and almost all situations were arousing for him. 

I have raised and fostered puppies/dogs and had never seen this before. He exhibited this behavior in front of other shepherd owners and my behaviorist at 10 weeks and not one person there thought it was normal...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if you are having major concerns and don't think your equipped to handle her behavior why not return her to the breeder?

Honestly, if my previous dog turned out like your previous dog, I may not go back to those lines/breeder.

I agree with Carmen, if she really "means" it, I would think this isn't normal.

BUT if she's just one of those pain in the butt biting machines, well that can be normal..

Do you have anyone who has a dog/puppy that she could interact with? Maybe she's just "bored" and this is her outlet.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Per the OP's physical description of the puppy's behaviour.....it doesn't sound normal to me either.
I have seen and owned "drivey" puppies that mouth and bite objects, people's limbs and anything else that moves, because they have a high level of "prey" drive.
They even "fight back" when the object becomes "alive".......but never have they displayed any "fear aggressive body language".
Instead a "drivey" puppy displays a positive, happy body language....ears more erect, tail moving.....no teeth baring nor hair standing.

IMO...any puppy (especially this young) that is displaying the characteristics that the OP is describing....has a complete different issue that being a so called "land shark".....


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I had a puppy EXACTLY like this. It was definitly NOT normal. My Vet couldn't believe what she was seeing and my family, friends and I were constantly on the defense because of him.

That puppy left my house after 4 weeks and was supposed to go to a guy that had great experience and could handle him. The last I heard (almost a year ago) the puppy was on his 4th home and was a permanent outside dog. I do not know where he is now. 

I would go see a behavioralist now or return that puppy to the breeder.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We held back 2 sisters from our Z-litter (Ziva & Zora)...both females have high levels of prey & play drive.
Both puppies leap into the air, lunge at the x-pens, bark and bite the "prey object" because they have very nice drive.
They can easily be picked up off the ground, hanging on the leather, dangling from mid air. (they are nearly 13 weeks old).
They were born with this drive......but they are extremely confident, social, fun puppies. They have solid "prey & fight aggression"......aka..."what you call land sharks".

This behaviour is completely different than what the OP describes.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Is it possible to post a video so that we maybe able to get a better idea on the puppies behaviour?

Cheryl


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the puppy in the OP's description is standing rigid, hackling along her spine, tail over her back , ears back, teeth exposed and snarling -- this sounds like fear - aggression to a very high point -- life or death survival mode .

a "land shark" exuberant dog is fluid in his movements will often incorporate play signs like dipping , reducing in size, spring back up , dodging , even briefly running away only to come back faster . The entire expression on the face is different.
got a pedigree?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Elaine said:


> It's possible that your pup has some fear aggression beginning, but for now, I would consider this normal landshark behavior. More exercise, more interactive play, and begin positive obedience training. Most of us can and do brag about how much blood we shed when our pups were young.My guess is that you have never seen a pup like this and aren't handling it well making the pup worse. If you have had standard american dogs in the past, this could be a huge shock to your system.
> Where did you get your puppy?


US show lines are very much NOT immune to this normal GSD puppy behavior - we have a male from a top show kennel and he was exactly like a land shark. He finally learned to inhibit his bite about the time his adult teeth came in but is still VERY mouthy today (3 + yo). But at least it doesn't hurt now!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

TALK TO YOUR BREEDER! Situations like this are exactly why we pay a bit more but then get the guidance and help from our responsible breeders. Just give them a call to see what's what and if you should be concerned...


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I am in MI and can give you the name of my behaviorist - she did wonders for me and my little terror...


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

*i miss my land shark*

:crazy:Thats my Gypsy or it us to be and no one could tell me how to solve that problem but i'll tell you what i did finally and it workes (START TRAINING EMEDIATELY.) I hope i spelled that right but start positive training your dog play tug and buy alot of band aids, you might try to trim her nails because thats soon to become an even bigger problem, i solved that one with alot of walks on cool asfault,,, there goes the spelling again lol have fun and try to enjoy it because you'll miss you little land shark when it's finally over i sure do...


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> My female German Shepherd is several days over two months old and i have had her for almost 2 weeks. We have bonded very well, but i am concerned about her aggressiveness. I immediately noticed the puppy had alot of drive, that i realized may need to be harnessed. As she has grown over these past two weeks she has become a very mouthy dog. I understand that puppies bite constantly, and that is to be expected. At play she becomes over aggressive biting, holding and shaking while growling. She stalks and then makes an attack towards any part of you that she can. When told no, or faced with any resistance ( i absolutely DO NOT hit her, I may grab her by the scruff of the neck, or hold her muzzle shut but that is it.) She reacts by becoming more aggressive, growling, snarling, baring her teeth and barking. Keep in mind she is not even nine weeks old. I realize this has the potential to be a huge problem, as she is already getting bigger and stronger. Over 20 lbs at 2 months old. In another month this behavior will become dangerous and she has already drawn all sorts of blood from the whole family. The book I bought says to consult a behaviorist immediately about this type of behavior.
> 
> here is a picture for reference, i only wish she was as sweet as she looks



Sounds normal to me. That's why they're called landsharks.  But you need to train him constantly.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> At play she becomes over aggressive biting, holding and shaking while growling. She stalks and then makes an attack towards any part of you that she can. *When told no, or faced with any resistance *( i absolutely DO NOT hit her, I may grab her by the scruff of the neck, or hold her muzzle shut but that is it.) *She reacts by becoming more aggressive, growling, snarling, baring her teeth and barking.* Keep in mind she is not even nine weeks old. I realize this has the potential to be a huge problem, as she is already getting bigger and stronger. Over 20 lbs at 2 months old. In another month this behavior will become dangerous and she has already drawn all sorts of blood from the whole family. The book I bought says to consult a behaviorist immediately about this type of behavior.QUOTE]
> 
> You are right to be concerned, this is beyond normal puppy behavior and could be the beginning of some serious problems. I have had to deal with aggression problems from my dog, which we dealt with before he got big enough to inflict serious damage upon us. We used Alpha Training. Consult a dog trainer that specializes in dealing with aggression.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

FG167 said:


> I am in MI and can give you the name of my behaviorist - she did wonders for me and my little terror...


I would take Falon up on this! The progress she made with Madix was amazing. It is obviously much easier to deal with issues when a dog is 25lbs rather than 80. 

She sure is cute, and I hope you are able to turn things around with her.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

liv said:


> I would take Falon up on this! The progress she made with Madix was amazing. It is obviously much easier to deal with issues when a dog is 25lbs rather than 80.


Agreed. Also, others will disagree with me but I agree with how you are responding to the pup. Scruffing is not harmful and neither is grabbing his snout.
Just don't hurt the pup in the process. I had to do both with my land shark and it worked very well. BTW, she is ASL and no push-over.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

I completely agree with the people who say this is not normal behavior. This isn't my first rodeo. I've owned 5 gsd's in my 24 years, 4 of which I raised from puppies. I know puppies bite, and that they sometimes play roughly. This is most definately NOT the case. This is clearly aggression. She is not timid. She is outgoing and very curious, and into everything. I'm trying to socialize her as much as possible.

I had another incident this morning that really hit it home that something needs to be done. I had a bowl of soup on a tray table that she knocked over and began eating. I went to pull her away from it so I could clean it up and she squated down and began to emit gutteral snarls. This CLEARLY was not play behavior. I went to move her again and she made the same sound and turned around and snapped. This wasn't a playful growl this is the sound that dogs make when they fight, that horrible almost unearthly sound. Shes beggining obedience classes tuesday, but I'm starting to think that she will need one on one focus with a qualified behaviorist. She's already 23 lbs at about 9 weeks and very shortly with her gaining size and strength she will become a danger.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I would find a trainer to do private lessons with instead of focusing on an obedience class whch is mainly socialization at that age. You say she's curious and not timid, so I think shed benefit more from one on ones with someone who knows aggressioj, particularly gsd's if possible.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

as a side note I'm pretty sure it is a dominance issue. add to that in the middle of her attacking me she likes to mount me and ...um have her way with my leg/arm..... yes this a 9 week old female


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> as a side note I'm pretty sure it is a dominance issue. add to that in the middle of her attacking me she likes to mount me and ...um have her way with my leg/arm..... yes this a 9 week old female


I'm very discouraged and disappointed by the recommendations being given on this thread.

I also wish that Sleeperhatch91 would watch/listen to this video:





 
Truly shows why many of us should never get a normal high drive GSD puppy cause it's way too much for us to handle with a normal human busy life. You aren't seeing 'aggression' you are seeing a normal healthy high drive 9 week old puppy who wants to play play play. *And to discipline and discourage PLAY and treat it like 'aggression' is a HUGE MISTAKE!*

Not the PUPPIES fault we don't have the knowledge/skills and abilities to deal with a puppy that's way more to deal with than others. And if we DO choose to add one to our lives than it's OUR responsibility to find a good trainer to help.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is possible as others said, that your puppy is not normal. Or he could be normal, just high-drive, high energy with no appropriate outlet. Scruffing or other forms of punishement is NOT the way to go! All it will do with a pup like this is build anger, bewilderment, resentment, and confusion. What you need to do is to build your trust and relationship as a benevolent and fair leader. A lot of these behaviours can be managed and redirected. Establishing rank (as in you being top dog) doesn't come by showing force, but by all the many little things you do everyday and how you interact with your pup. 
Upping outdoor excercise is also important. Often times a lot of 'bad' behaviours estuingish themselves when pup is exercised properly. Most pups can do a lot more than what people think they can. 

What I'm disappointed in is the amount of "puppies trying to establish pack ranking and showing dominance" hooey that is out there on the internet from what seems to be reputable sources, but a lot of it is bunk. PUPPIES PLAY! Some with more, er, gusto than others, some much more physical than others, but their play are to practice adult behaviours. 

The jumping on the bed and humping is also play behaviour in a puppy, has no bearing on dominance. If you are concerned about it, and want to subtly and clearly establish clearer pack ranking roles then crate the pup at night, feed him in his crate, have more controls over his comings and goings, cut down on his freedom, but increase his outdoor exercise and the play interaction with you. Dominant dogs (you) don't go around scruffing, forcing, punishing, holding muzzles of other dogs. The show and reinforce their dominance by ignoring and controling other dogs by giving and removing attention to their underlings. 

You may have a dog of much higher drive and energy than you are used to, and don't have the tools and experience to deal with it, despite your many other dogs. 

Perhaps you may have a dog that is not normal, but do you know how many people join and make posts about their perfectly normal puppy biting and playing, and the owners are convinced that they have a pup in the throes of demonic possession, but once they hear how common their pup's behaviour is they relax and enjoy their new baby? 

So since we don't know for sure into which category you fall, and advising to scruff or punish the dog, treat the dog as an enemy instead of a BABY is irresponsible, the best and smartest thing to do is have someone experienced and trusted actually see what you are talking about and go from there. And that is someone with experience with working dogs like GSDs, because no lab or other 'easier' breed have such crazy puppyhoods as GSDs. 

I'd really take up Falon (Madix) on her offer. PM her for her behaviourist's contact info and go from there.

Or return the pup and find one from another breeder. If you have had good luck with the WGS's you raised before, I'd back to that breeder and get a pup from them, as they seem to be a better fit for your expectations and personality. 




I would PM Falon (Madix


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree with Castlemaid's advice.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And make sure, following Castlemaid's post, that the trainer doesn't have a one tool fits all approach - including the scruffing and muzzle grabbing. You want someone to out-think your dog, not out-power them. 

GSD is not GSD is not GSD. When I used to coordinate home visits, and the apps said has GSD experience, I would ask the people doing the home check to ask what those dogs were like. Because you could have 40 GSDs but if they were not like the one you were adopting, you were basically back at square one. 

Anyone who had Chow Chow, or other such breed experience, was an automatic approval.  Kidding!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

PM me the pedigree and I may be able to see some clue to the behavoir. There are lines of dogs that should never be intensified because the result is unbalanced. People still do these breedings because they want more drive, more aggression, more angulation, more color, more size, whatever. Not saying this is definitely the problem but it is good to see if there is a predisposition towards aggression by the genetics being stacked in that favor.
Another thing, how do you think the mother of the litter would handle this puppy if she fired up on her?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Cliff - I do not know if this will help you - from the intro thread:


Sleeperhatch91 said:


> A breeder called Stonehill kennels in Mt. Morris, MI. Thats where we got Sierra from and she was such a beautiful looking and tempered dog I wouldn't go anywhere else.


I will look through to see if there is more info - until the OP can come back and see this.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO the best advice for all concerned, puppy and OP, is to return the puppy to the breeder.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

Returning the dog to the breeder is out of the question. I have had her for long enough that I have bonded with her, and I am not about to simply trade her in for a newer model like a car, especially without giving her time to mellow out, begin training or try other alternatives like a behaviorist. I'm probabally going to go the behaviorist way. It's no doubt this is a high drive puppy, I have watched the leerburg video several times, and that is EXACTLY how she acts. I appreciate all the advice everybody. My plan is subtle 1-2 weeks maybe of positively building pack order, and if things don't improve bring a behaviorist/specialized trainer into the picture.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

If she's as 'bad' as you say (and I'm not saying she isn't or your misinterpreting), I would bring in a behaviorist NOW. 


I would also re-read Lucia's post, which I thought was right on. And in the end, if you don't think it's going to work, I would return her to the breeder sooner vs later because this could be a disaester in the making if you don't get a handle on what's going on. 

Good luck, please keep us updated


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sleeperhatch, what are your goals for this pup? It sounds to me, unless you are determined to keep this puppy super busy, you are going to have a daily challenge on your hands. Puppies with this type personality aren't a good match for the average pet home. I hope you are aware of the challenge you face by not returning her to her breeder.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> Returning the dog to the breeder is out of the question. I have had her for long enough that I have bonded with her, and I am not about to simply trade her in for a newer model like a car, especially without giving her time to mellow out, begin training or try other alternatives like a behaviorist. I'm probabally going to go the behaviorist way. It's no doubt this is a high drive puppy, I have watched the leerburg video several times, and that is EXACTLY how she acts. I appreciate all the advice everybody. My plan is subtle 1-2 weeks maybe of positively building pack order, and if things don't improve bring a behaviorist/specialized trainer into the picture.


So glad you viewed the video so know you do have a normal puppy. A normal HIGH drive puppy. 

I'd really really really work on the engagement training recommended on a bunch of leerburg videos. This is KEY to the leadership and bonding to build the proper relationship you need to have.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

Sleeperhatch91 said:


> My female German Shepherd is several days over two months old and i have had her for almost 2 weeks. We have bonded very well, but i am concerned about her aggressiveness. I immediately noticed the puppy had alot of drive, that i realized may need to be harnessed. As she has grown over these past two weeks she has become a very mouthy dog. I understand that puppies bite constantly, and that is to be expected. At play she becomes over aggressive biting, holding and shaking while growling. She stalks and then makes an attack towards any part of you that she can. When told no, or faced with any resistance ( i absolutely DO NOT hit her, I may grab her by the scruff of the neck, or hold her muzzle shut but that is it.) She reacts by becoming more aggressive, growling, snarling, baring her teeth and barking. Keep in mind she is not even nine weeks old. I realize this has the potential to be a huge problem, as she is already getting bigger and stronger. Over 20 lbs at 2 months old. In another month this behavior will become dangerous and she has already drawn all sorts of blood from the whole family. The book I bought says to consult a behaviorist immediately about this type of behavior.
> 
> here is a picture for reference, i only wish she was as sweet as she looks


Sounds to me that she will be strong in Schutzhund. I know people are chiming in to say normal... there is normal and then there is over the top. GSDs have different jobs they are strong in. Schutzhund and police work, search and rescue, guide dog, herding and so on. Jesse is strong in guide/assistance dog, would never be good in Schutzhund and doesn't chase squirrels etc and shows no herding ability or desire. I now another GSD that shows strong in herding and tries to herd every living thing and another GSD (like your pup) strong in Schutzhund.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

I have watched the 'so you want a high drive puppy?" video a few times before I chose my pup. I never saw anything about true viciousness in a young pup. This is normal? I'm real curious how this thread turns out...I've been around alot of high drive dogs, and never seen a mean business I wanna rip your head off attitude towards an owner be normal at that age. Play bite everything in site, run you ragged hyper, yeah...but doing major damage? LOL? Really? Normal?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm shaking my head on why two highly respected breeders have said this isn't normal puppy behavior, another has said they would look at the pedigree to see if anything pops out that might indicate genetic aggression...and all have been ignored. My personal opinion is get a behaviorist in as soon as possible and get the pedigree to Cliff to look at.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

Believe me they are not being ignored, those are the ones im listening to. While yes this is a very high drive dog, there is clearly something more than that going on. It's not like the dog hates me. She has quickly formed a very strong bond to me specifically. It's these isolated incidents like her snapping and snarling when i tried to move her away from spilled food that worry me. She's normally a very loving although very mouthy rambunctious high drive dog. I really put a lot of time into playing with her and do about three 15min walks a day with her, in addition to playing with her ball in the backyard. She starts puppy school tomorrow night and I'm going to talk to the trainers there who are very experienced with gsd's about recomendations for a local trainer.


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## Sleeperhatch91 (Apr 23, 2011)

Ssee she is not always such a little nazi, i took this when we went to the ice cream stand on a socialization trip


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

awww she is very cute eating her ice cream..I would definately send Cliff a copy of the ped , he is wonderful at reading them and is usually 'spot on' with what they are producing.

Maybe she is resource guarding? Food aggression? Since it sounds like the incidents you have talked about involve food. 

I'm not saying she couldn't be 'wired wrong', but I think it's a very very rare thing for a 9 week old puppy (unless it's feral) to be downright into 'killer' mode.

I know when I got my 12 week old aussie rescue, he came from a situation where he had to literally 'fight' for food, he was very food aggressive/resource guardy. Not saying your puppy came from that type of situation, but it could be a resource guarding type situation..

Just throwing that out there


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Have you done a fecal recently? 

There are also physical causes to rule out. But I would start with bringing a couple of poop samples in. If she's hungry because worms and parasites (and they all have them at some point) are eating her food, and her belly hurts, she's not going to be at her best. 

I would also ask the breeder how things went there. I had a foster puppy who was raised by humans more than his mom (turned out to be a good thing - she was an extremely damaged dog) and when he came to me, I just let my pack take over. But how was the mom, how long was she with her litter, what position was she in the litter, were there any resource issues - were they group fed up until they left, etc. 

If it's mostly over food, there are easy things to do with the trading and things like that to get her to welcome you to be near her. If you're messing with her while she's eating, stop. I cannot tell you what I would do to you if you got between me and some really good boneless wings!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some good questions and suggestions by Jean and Diane. I was wondering some of the same things. I went back and looked at your other posts. You got her at 6 weeks old? That is one of the problems with this puppy. Good responsible breeders will not let the pups go home until they are 8 weeks old or older, as those last two weeks with their litter is very important in their social development. In some places it is _illegal_ to sell pups younger than 8 weeks old, but I don't know if that is the law in Michigan also. 

Another thing I would do to build you trust and bond is to always make every interaction with you fun, positive, and rewarding. From now on your pockets are never empty of good quality kibble and small yummy treats. Everything she does is exactly what you want her to do because you manage her environment and plan your actions in a way that she has no choice, and is rewarded for it. 

She looks at you (start of focus on handler), she is a good girl and she gets a treat! She comes when called, she is a good girl and gets a treat. She is somewhere she is not supposed to be, you are a bad puppy dad for not supervising her, for letting her get into trouble, for not setting her up to be successful, no treat for you! LOL! You want her to move or get off from somewhere, instead of forcing her or pushing her and setting the whole situation up for a fight, throw a treat for her to chase, and praiser her for getting off the furniture, or moving in the direction you wanted her to move in. Drop treats around her at random times - that will make you out to be some great benevolent Benefactor who is worthy of constant attention and adoration . . . and so on.  

How was she raised, in the house with her littermates? Outside in a kennel? 

If you have the pedigree to post, it would be interesting to see her background.


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## HeyCoopa (Jan 26, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Another thing I would do to build you trust and bond is to always make every interaction with you fun, positive, and rewarding. From now on your pockets are never empty of good quality kibble and small yummy treats. Everything she does is exactly what you want her to do because you manage her environment and plan your actions in a way that she has no choice, and is rewarded for it.
> 
> She looks at you (start of focus on handler), she is a good girl and she gets a treat! She comes when called, she is a good girl and gets a treat. She is somewhere she is not supposed to be, you are a bad puppy dad for not supervising her, for letting her get into trouble, for not setting her up to be successful, no treat for you! LOL! You want her to move or get off from somewhere, instead of forcing her or pushing her and setting the whole situation up for a fight, throw a treat for her to chase, and praiser her for getting off the furniture, or moving in the direction you wanted her to move in. Drop treats around her at random times - that will make you out to be some great benevolent Benefactor who is worthy of constant attention and adoration . . . and so on.


I completely agree with this. This is what worked wonders with my little tasmanian devil who was behaving very similarly to what you describe at 10 weeks old. It was terrifying. I know how disappointing and worrisome it is to have a puppy whose behavior is baffling.

I sought the advice of a behavior specialist. One of the first things we did was to stop any physical restraint/handling exercises that some puppy books recommend you do. If your pup has any issues around being touched, and you are getting into a power struggle (or if she is reacting with fear aggression), that's just going to make things worse. You can work on being able to hold and touch her in tiny baby steps that involve lots and lots of yummy treats. Have her drag a light leash around so that you can redirect her without physically moving her.

For me and my pup, it was all about me showing him that I was a fair, trustworthy leader and friend. The adversarial dynamic created by scruffing and holding his muzzle shut was severely damaging that relationship. Physical confrontation will never work with this dog, and I'm OK with that. It forces me to think of ways to incentivize him to do what I want -- he gets good things from me, I get what I need from him, and our bond strengthens. I can't remember the last time he showed any kind of aggression toward me (he is currently 1.5 years old). I'm glad that I didn't give up on my pup (came pretty close a few times, though). I wish you the best of luck with yours.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think the way that you are reacting to the biting is causing more problems. If I had grabbed at my puppy in the manner described it is quite likely that some escalation and barking would result!

A new approach is needed or perhaps a better match of homes for the pup before the behavior becomes ingrained by owner reaction. Is the breeder available for assistance?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

HeyCoopa said:


> I completely agree with this. This is what worked wonders with my little tasmanian devil who was behaving very similarly to what you describe at 10 weeks old. It was terrifying. I know how disappointing and worrisome it is to have a puppy whose behavior is baffling.
> 
> I sought the advice of a behavior specialist. One of the first things we did was to stop any physical restraint/handling exercises that some puppy books recommend you do. If your pup has any issues around being touched, and you are getting into a power struggle (or if she is reacting with fear aggression), that's just going to make things worse. You can work on being able to hold and touch her in tiny baby steps that involve lots and lots of yummy treats. Have her drag a light leash around so that you can redirect her without physically moving her.
> 
> For me and my pup, it was all about me showing him that I was a fair, trustworthy leader and friend. The adversarial dynamic created by scruffing and holding his muzzle shut was severely damaging that relationship. Physical confrontation will never work with this dog, and I'm OK with that. It forces me to think of ways to incentivize him to do what I want -- he gets good things from me, I get what I need from him, and our bond strengthens. I can't remember the last time he showed any kind of aggression toward me (he is currently 1.5 years old). I'm glad that I didn't give up on my pup (came pretty close a few times, though). I wish you the best of luck with yours.


HeyCoopa, welcome to the board and great FIRST POST!!! Hope you stick around and keep up the good work! :thumbup:


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## Whiskey Six (Dec 19, 2001)

I have an extremely high drive, intense, dominant, amazing 14 week old puppy. He displayed behavior similar to what the OP described. He was a crazed landshark. He got very aggressive a couple of times. Snarling, growling, barking and trying to bite. I followed the advice in the video below. Held him and spoke calmly to him. He just trashed and threw his head side to side trying to bite my hands. So the next step was to put him in his crate until he calmed down. When he was calm I let him out and held him and loved him and had a very nice quiet time. This happened twice. 

This is something that he has grown out of. He is now much, much more "civilized". He now licks my hands instead of bite them. He gets constant, several times a day training. Plus lots of exercise. He is still has extreme prey drive and is very intense. I can easily get him worked into a frenzy. But that is just counter productive and serves no purpose. He is learning to be calm and social when it's appropriate. Just give your girl some time and be patient and consistent with her. She sounds like she will be an awesome dog.
Leerburg On Demand Video Player | Puppies that Bite


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

And, please keep updating....please


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Whiskey Six said:


> I have an extremely high drive, intense, dominant, amazing 14 week old puppy. He displayed behavior similar to what the OP described. He was a crazed landshark. He got very aggressive a couple of times. Snarling, growling, barking and trying to bite. I followed the advice in the video below. Held him and spoke calmly to him. He just trashed and threw his head side to side trying to bite my hands. So the next step was to put him in his crate until he calmed down. When he was calm I let him out and held him and loved him and had a very nice quiet time. This happened twice.
> 
> This is something that he has grown out of. He is now much, much more "civilized". He now licks my hands instead of bite them. He gets constant, several times a day training. Plus lots of exercise. He is still has extreme prey drive and is very intense. I can easily get him worked into a frenzy. But that is just counter productive and serves no purpose. He is learning to be calm and social when it's appropriate. Just give your girl some time and be patient and consistent with her. She sounds like she will be an awesome dog.
> Leerburg On Demand Video Player | Puppies that Bite


Another GREAT post. Personal experience plus a great link with more info. Hard to get better than that!!! :thumbup:


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I have finally added my Food Guarding article to my website. Feel free to have a look and see how I deal with food guarding in a NON-CONFRONTATIONAL manner.

*How to Deal with Food Guarding from the Raw Dog Ranch*

I can tell you the the *#1 WORST* thing you can do is use force or reprimand the dog when dealing with this issue.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I have finally added my Food Guarding article to my website. Feel free to have a look and see how I deal with food guarding in a NON-CONFRONTATIONAL manner.
> *How to Deal with Food Guarding from the Raw Dog Ranch*
> I can tell you the the *#1 WORST* thing you can do is use force or reprimand the dog when dealing with this issue.


Interesting article. I could see trying it with a strange adult dog who is food/resource guarding but much better to never let a puppy get to that point by training them from the beginning that you (owner) will never take their food away without quickly returning it so they don't worry about it.

Also interesting that you repweat the belief that one should not correct a dog for growling because it makes the dog not growl the next time but instead just bite. I don't believe this as I think it attributes more rational "thinking" to a dog than they have, but I am open. 

Do you know of any verified studies/experiments that would prove that this is true in dogs (other than anectodal beliefs of people). That they actually connect the correction with "I'm growling so next time, for any reason I feel like growling, I better not growl and I should just bite with no growl and then I won't get corrected"! 

Do you think that if you correct a dog for growling because you go too close to their food bowl while they are eating, that the next time when you happen to walk too close to them when they are on the couch that they will just bite you with no growling? Assuming of course that they don't like anyone coming too close to them when they are on the couch and that they are FA?

My question is concerned with this - won't a dog connect the correction with the reason it is growling (the situation that caused the dog to growl) rather than the simple doggy way of communicating it's problem with that situation? I.E. becoming too aggressive and reacting that way rather than with the doggy communication of growling?

Just a thought?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I love you Laurie...but personally, I don't believe that a dog that "growls" should not be corrected, because it leads to "biting" instead....
I have corrected (correctly) dogs of all ages for "growling"...and they did not "bite" instead. *Some behaviours are just not acceptable, while others are tolerable.*
I think "behaviour" should be enforced as an only acceptable manner.....
Behaviour is not something that is requested...it is something that is required.

Again...just my opinion....that is why we all train differently.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Codmaster, I know we've spoken of this before. It's not correcting the dog for growling, it's punishing the dog for guarding. It makes the matter worse.

I know I've told you this story before because I remember you commenting that it was an interesting reaction and you were going to discuss it with your trainer.

Jax guards toys from other dogs, never guarded anything from a person. Sierra walks into the room, Jax flies off the ottoman to get whatever toy Sierra might be walking by. I correct Jax, take the toy away. Next time Jax flies of the ottoman and growls at Sierra on her way to get the toy. Correction and take the toy. The last time Jax never made a sound. She flew off the ottoman and attacked Sierra as she walked by the toy.

So, to answer your question. Yes, I do think that eventually the dog will start biting without growling or any kind of warning. It accelerates. You need to change the dogs mindset of guarding. IME, that is exactly what happened and my correction caused it. The only thing Jax knew was she didn't get what she wanted so she kept accelerating her behavior.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I read through some of the pages. What I am wondering is, has the OP really ever seen a truly driven working line puppy from strong working lines? 

You can be around Shepherds all your life and still blown away by highly driven dogs if you always had so-and-so pet dog lines that play with a ball but are nowhere near as driven as a working dog. 

------------------------------------------------------------

As for food guarding in puppies. 
The first night Judge was at home with us, I fed him and I was shocked that a three month old puppy could be that food aggressive. I don't think I ever talked about it on here that he used to be food aggressive/guarding. Not towards me but towards the other dogs and he used the big boys voice. He sounded vicious but since he was just a young puppy he was easily impressed and it was easy to break him out of the habit. I did correct him and it didn't turn him into an aggressive biter or made anything worse. It actually broke him out of the habit. And all it took was a correction and I am not saying beat the heck out of him. Sometimes a voice correction is enough, especially with pups that young...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Codmaster, I know we've spoken of this before. It's not correcting the dog for growling, it's punishing the dog for guarding. It makes the matter worse.
> 
> I know I've told you this story before because I remember you commenting that it was an interesting reaction and you were going to discuss it with your trainer.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe I don't understand the problems that some folks have with this because I have almost never had a dog that showed any food/resource guarding - perhaps due to the way we raised them from small puppies.

Only one time did any of my dogs shown resource guarding toward me or anyoone that were around them

Once, one of our puppies - (9 mo at the time and hard as a rock, out of German imports and son of the high scoring protection dog in the Seiger show) growled at me when I went to take a real bone he was chewing as he lay on the floor in the living room. Without really thinking about it, I raised my voice with a low gutteral "NO" and at the same time grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and gave him a strong (not vicious so it didn't really hurt him) shake or two. He stopped growling and never tried anything like that again. Also never bit anyone except for the helper!


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## Whiskey Six (Dec 19, 2001)

codmaster said:


> I raised my voice with a low gutteral "NO" and at the same time grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and gave him a strong (not vicious so it didn't really hurt him) shake or two. He stopped growling and never tried anything like that again. Also never bit anyone except for the helper!



This is exactly what Ed Frawley is talking about in the video I linked to. Correcting for inappropriate pack behavior. Teaching manners. You don't have to be rough or hurt the puppy in any way. Just be firm, stern and quick. I think the startle factor is what's effective. I don't buy into the "never correct, only reward" way of thinking. That works great for training but teaching appropriate behavior in the home and among pack members is something different entirely. They get corrections for that just as a young pup would in the wild.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiskey Six said:


> This is exactly what Ed Frawley is talking about in the video I linked to. Correcting for inappropriate pack behavior. Teaching manners. You don't have to be rough or hurt the puppy in any way. Just be firm, stern and quick. I think the startle factor is what's effective. I don't buy into the "never correct, only reward" way of thinking. That works great for training but teaching appropriate behavior in the home and among pack members is something different entirely. They get corrections for that just as a young pup would in the wild.


Yes, I completely agree with that too. 

Be firm, not brutal. There is a time and place for correction even though I am a strong advocate for positive reinforcement, sometimes you have to correct the dog. Correction doesn't mean that you beat the dog. Correction can just be a voice correction with a firm and strong voice or popping the leash, or a slap on the back and sometimes all it takes is a certain look and they know "Oh Oh, I'm in trouble" and you don't have to say anything at all and they go to their place. ..

Dunno why so many people have a misconception about corrections...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Growling in a puppy has nothing to do with the level of drive a dog has. Growling is usually sign of insecurity and an exaggerated posture to use fight instead of flight for this insecurity. Growling from a puppy this age often reflects a less than desirable level of nerve strength. The lack of experience in dealing with growling in a puppy can lead to the puppy eventually biting, but the growling itself does not lead to biting. Just some random thoughts.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> At play she becomes over aggressive biting, holding and shaking while growling.


Does that sound like weak nerves to you?


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Does that sound like weak nerves to you?


yes, I think it does.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yep, weaker than I like for sure. I have seen very very very few pups or even adults that growl out of strength of nerve. very few. There have been a few from back in the day, even then for pups it wasn't actually strength of nerve. Snarling/growling dogs is usually fear based. Now fear based can be misinterpreted by the novice as strength.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Yep, weaker than I like for sure. I have seen very very very few pups or even adults that growl out of strength of nerve. very few. There have been a few from back in the day, even then for pups it wasn't actually strength of nerve. Snarling/growling dogs is usually fear based. Now fear based can be misinterpreted by the novice as strength.


Got a question about this for you. Had a female GSD about 18 mo - first time she ever showed any aggression in her life (since we got her at 11 weeks) was on a drive down Rt 95 from Delaware to Fla one night. We pulled into a rest stop about 1 am and parked. All of a sudden we heard this low deep growl (first time we ever heard anything like that from her) coming out of our dog. Seems she had spotted a small group of somewhat seedy characters about 5/6 cars away - standing out and talking kind of loud.

We let her out of the car, leashed of course, and she went to the end of the leash toward them - no growls or barks but very very intent. After we walked around a bit she finally seemed to calm down, did her business (the original reason for our stop), - we walked over near but not too close and she watched the group but no barking or further growling and she seemed ok when we got back in the car with her and took off.

Much later in life she really took to the ScH training that we did and never showed any fear or nervousness about new people, things or other dogs. Seemingly a rock solid temperament. Her behavior that night really surprised us. We chalked it up to a growing adultness and a bit of protectivness as my wife was quite obviously worried when we saw the group as we were pulling up to the rest area.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Where's the OP?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Never did get your question. As for the story, your female found the situation to be very unsettling and used one of the two main ways that dogs use to repel something they aren't comfortable with,(those being barking and growling). I don't doubt there was some protective elements in her growl out of being with her pack....but it is very similar to a mother with her pups and bear or mountain lion approaches, she will snarl and growl in hopes of repeling the threat to protect her pups. But the growling is out of fear for the pups safety and the willingness to protect them overcoming the fear of the animal. You take that same dog and let them see a bear or mountain lion in the open and unless they are some sort of hound expressly bred to hunt this animal, they will not act out of bravery become they are afraid of the consequences. People have to realize that fear based actions are part of the survival mode of animals. Domesticated dogs have had these actions minimized and these behavoirs lessened by limiting the exposure to true danger for dogs so those traits aren't sharpened. Don't know if this helps my original posts.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Yep, weaker than I like for sure. I have seen very very very few pups or even adults that growl out of strength of nerve. very few. There have been a few from back in the day, even then for pups it wasn't actually strength of nerve. Snarling/growling dogs is usually fear based. Now fear based can be misinterpreted by the novice as strength.


Yeah... the thing is, unless you've seen that dog with your own eyes, you can't tell. 


He said while he's playing, now the op didn't explain how she's playing with the pup. Let's say the pup is tugging something and is getting all excited because it's in his genes. If that pup is tugging something, and growls while doing so...I don't know about you but I'd call that puppy behavior and not weak nerves.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah... the thing is, unless you've seen that dog with your own eyes, you can't tell. /QUOTE]
> 
> That's my concern. There's a whole lot of supposition on this thread based on a few comments from the OP. It's easy to get an impression based on what we think is being said but what's being said is being filtered through the OP's understanding of what the dog is doing. There could be all sorts of nuances that are being overlooked. I can't tell you how many times I've had owners contact me with behavioral issues that they described so "clearly" that I absolutely thought I understood what to expect but got there to find a totally different dog. I'm not picking on the OP. He may be describing what's going on perfectly, but without at least a video it's all Internet guessing. I echo the very sound advice to get an evaluation from a reputable and qualified behaviorist (and not someone who is using disproven dominance theory from 30 years ago).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Whiskey Six said:


> They get corrections for that just as a young pup would in the wild.


Here's where I 150% disagree.

There is NO WAY we humans can ever CORRECTLY imitate the behaviors that dogs use to communicate with each other.

We do not have hair that will stand up. We do not have tails that we can raise (or tuck if we are scared). We do not have ears that move. We cannot curl our lips back to show our teeth.

A human grabbing a dog by the scruff does NOT equate to an alpha dog grabbing another by the neck. Not even close!

Now, have I scruffed MY dogs? Sure. Do I think they see that action as a posturing of their alpha leader? Heck NO!

I think they FEEL it's uncomfortable and, from the tone of my voice they KNOW I am upset with them.

And THAT comes from having a good relationship with my dogs.

Would I ever scruff a dog I don't know? H E double-toothpicks NO!! A dog I don't know is one that might not respect me and I could be setting myself up for a bite.

I think people and dogs would be much happier if people stopped trying to make their dogs out to be people AND if people stopped trying to be a dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mrs. K, let's say that in playing the puppy tugs and gets excited and in the course emits a growl....well that could definitely be play....BUT what I read and I quote, " Ears up, fur up, tail arched, bared teeth, and snapping"...doesn't sound or act like play to me....you see I read carefully before I comment!!! 

Pupresq, I agree we would all be better served if we could witness the behavoir....BTW, I do get paid for problem solving dog behavoirs for a hospital out of Phila. Most of which are forms of aggression and destructiveness....don't know if that makes me a behavoirist but I know that the methods I use usually lead to satisfied customers.

I also think that the OP should have a knowledgable breeder/trainer look at the puppy and tell them what they see. I try never to forget that in order to fix something first you have to assess the causation...or else it will reappear in another form later...JMO.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Mrs. K, let's say that in playing the puppy tugs and gets excited and in the course emits a growl....well that could definitely be play....BUT what I read and I quote,* " Ears up, fur up, tail arched, bared teeth, and snapping"*...doesn't sound or act like play to me....you see I read carefully before I comment!!!
> 
> Pupresq, I agree we would all be better served if we could witness the behavoir....BTW, I do get paid for problem solving dog behavoirs for a hospital out of Phila. Most of which are forms of aggression and destructiveness....don't know if that makes me a behavoirist but I know that the methods I use usually lead to satisfied customers.
> 
> I also think that the OP should have a knowledgable breeder/trainer look at the puppy and tell them what they see. I try never to forget that in order to fix something first you have to assess the causation...or else it will reappear in another form later...JMO.



That is true. But again, without really seeing it, we can't tell. It is an option, a suggestion but we can't say that it has weak nerves without having seen the dog personally. 

We all know that puppy play, sometimes sounds and looks more vicious and aggressive than it actually is and some people that have not the experience with pups like that, especially pups that come out of working lines, they misinterpret things. 

How many times do we have the "aggressive puppy" question on here... every day, somebody is coming on, talking about his super aggressive 8 week old puppy. 

Just saying... the only way I believe that a puppy has these issues is to see it with my own eyes. I have yet to see a two month old puppy whose nerves are so weak that it's truly fear aggressive at that age and if a puppy, an eight week old puppy, is already fear aggressive, than do that dog a favor and put him down.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mrs K,
You said you have yet to see an 8 week old puppy that's nerves are so weak that it is fear based???
Then you and I have far different experiences in the breed, and we'll let it go at that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sherush said:


> Sounds to me that she will be strong in Schutzhund. I know people are chiming in to say normal... there is normal and then there is over the top. GSDs have different jobs they are strong in. Schutzhund and police work, search and rescue, guide dog, herding and so on. Jesse is strong in guide/assistance dog, would never be good in Schutzhund and doesn't chase squirrels etc and shows no herding ability or desire. I now another GSD that shows strong in herding and tries to herd every living thing and another GSD (like your pup) strong in Schutzhund.


 
I could not disagree more. This dog is unstable and fearful . Not suitable for schutzhund , poor thing can't seem to handle daily life . This for a police dog NOT EVER -- people get the wrong idea. Those dogs have to be solid as a rock , with drive.

The other point I disagree with strongly is MaggieRoseLee insisting the leerburg example pup is normal and so is the OP's . The dog in the video was discussed at length previously. This is a hyper active dog with focus problems -- high distractability . Not ideal for working .
Locked in prey , I believe is where the topic came up. 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Mrs K,
> You said you have yet to see an 8 week old puppy that's nerves are so weak that it is fear based???
> Then you and I have far different experiences in the breed, and we'll let it go at that.


Yes, we probably have different experiences because I have never been around poor breeding up until now...and I said I never seen an eight week old puppy that has such weak nerves that it shows fear aggression already. Fear aggression as in snarling, roached back, tucked tail. I have never seen an eight week old puppy do that before... (seen quite a few badly bred Shepherds over here...)

And if a puppy shows these signs than it is better to put it out of misery and stop breeding those dogs...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I could not disagree more. This dog is unstable and fearful . Not suitable for schutzhund , poor thing can't seem to handle daily life . This for a police dog NOT EVER -- people get the wrong idea. Those dogs have to be solid as a rock , with drive.
> 
> The other point I disagree with strongly is MaggieRoseLee insisting the leerburg example pup is normal and so is the OP's . The dog in the video was discussed at length previously. This is a hyper active dog with focus problems -- high distractability . Not ideal for working .
> Locked in prey , I believe is where the topic came up.
> ...



That is the video:





That is the topic:http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/152978-locked-prey.html


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

And by the way, this is the same pup and in my opinion doing very well. 






and this is from 2011. I think that highly distractive dog, not suitable for any work is actually doing pretty darn good at nine months...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Unfortunately, Mrs K, I don't think this person got a puppy from the dogs you've been around. That leaves a huge big area of German Shepherds that they could have gotten the dog from. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say this probably ISN'T a workingline dog....hope the OP lets us see the pedigree. I could be wrong, but the pedigree often tells a lot...and sometimes it doesn't. Oh Well!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I could not watch the entire video . I started getting antsy. I STILL see what I saw in the first video when Endy-dog was introduced . video at 15 weeks, the girl needs a third arm to keep shovelling food at the dog. The dog is always quivering with activitity and the handler continues to promote it. The dog barely makes it to the fence (for the send away) when she is already rushing up with hand outstretched with food , and the dog still has daylight under its hock when it is already running forward. The dog continually looses focus starts little run offs and is brought back by food. In positions I don't think the handler has an idea of what she is asking the dog to do , just feeding it for what ever the dog does. There is no marked distinction , now I want you to platz , with a verbal or hand signal , and the dog has to go through offering behaviour , attempts , even wrong , then right and being rewarded . This is for the sit and the stand . I had to quit the video . 

Then the guard d'objet same thing . The opening dogs was an adult male . There is a lot of pattern training here -- you can see a marked area on the grass (worn) where the decoy seems to routinely enter the circles . 

Then indoors with the Endy-dog -- the dog should learn to be calm at the outer ring first . Lots of attention on the attack part -- and you can see the hectic thrashing -- and not letting go - and the decoy instead of calmly walking away , immediately reworks the dog , just keep on loading that stimulation . Looks worse.

Yes I have done this exercise in French ring , Campagne and Mondio -- 

the dog is still the same --- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I could not watch the entire video . I started getting antsy. I STILL see what I saw in the first video when Endy-dog was introduced . video at 15 weeks, the girl needs a third arm to keep shovelling food at the dog. The dog is always quivering with activitity and the handler continues to promote it. The dog barely makes it to the fence (for the send away) when she is already rushing up with hand outstretched with food , and the dog still has daylight under its hock when it is already running forward. The dog continually looses focus starts little run offs and is brought back by food. In positions I don't think the handler has an idea of what she is asking the dog to do , just feeding it for what ever the dog does. There is no marked distinction , now I want you to platz , with a verbal or hand signal , and the dog has to go through offering behaviour , attempts , even wrong , then right and being rewarded . This is for the sit and the stand . I had to quit the video .
> 
> Then indoors with the Endy-dog -- the dog should learn to be calm at the outer ring first . Lots of attention on the attack part -- and you can see the hectic thrashing -- and not letting go - and the decoy instead of calmly walking away , immediately reworks the dog , just keep on loading that stimulation . Looks worse.
> 
> ...


You are missing the point of Micheal Ellis' style of training. The whole point of the handler "shoving food" at the dog is to keep the dog focused. As the dog ages, the dog has more handler focus than any other dog that has been taught the traditional way of "Do the tricks or I correct you."
She is giving the dog commands and the dog knows exactly what she wants because she uses a marker word to let the puppy know she is doing something right.
This is called "engagement."
I have been using this method with my own new puppy and I've seen her handler focus sky rocket in a short amount of time. For a puppy, her attention span has become ridiculously long compared to Denali's at this age who would get bored easily.
With Denali, the dog I taught the old fashioned way (positive reinforcement but no markers and no engagement training) has trouble with focus and staying engaged with me. She also shows no enthusiasm for working and at some points seems confused.
A dog that offers behaviors is also thinking and actively trying to figure out what will get him that reward. I prefer training my dog to think and marking wanted behaviors rather than always showing my dog what to do and how/when they should do it.

ETA: The handler is purposely harnessing his drive and energetic behavior. This training is definitely not about calmly performing specific behaviors for rewards with 100% accuracy. To me, it seems its more to condition the dog to view training as exciting. The dog has to work through what they know to see if that will earn a reward. Eventually, they do reach a point of precision in their training, but the beginning stages seem to be touch and go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

training to me is not doing tricks. 
I have focus from the dog without all this . Guess it comes down to selection . I would not select a hectic dog and then try to reform him to be other .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You know, as much as I love reading your posts... many roads lead to Rome. 

And even with that training method, you can get a lot out of a so-and-so dog but it still takes good material to get to the world-class competition. 

Personally I prefer marker training myself. And a puppy won't automatically have a 100% focus on you. It's impossible. They don't have that kind of attention span. And while my bitch is naturally focused on me, it still takes a lot of training to channel it into what I want out of her. 

That training method has nothing to do with "doing tricks".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have proven time and time again , including old VHS videos done for a guide dog organization , and "genetic obedience" a topic I covered on this forum when I wrote about a female from Nov 3 litter "Ming" , that you CAN .

I am not missing any point at all . 

In fact the point is that if you breed for and select for certain things you will increase the likelihood of getting focus or tracking instinct or hunt search or environmental sureness , or genetic herding skills in a genuine way which then can be passed on to the next generation and strengthened each time .

The dog in the video is still the same dog . If and when bred will produce more of the similar type. 

If there was more worry put in to the breeding , then the training part would be easier.

I stand by that. Have done so for years.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> In fact the point is that if you breed for and select for certain things you will increase the likelihood of getting focus or tracking instinct or hunt search or environmental sureness , or genetic herding skills in a genuine way which then can be passed on to the next generation and strengthened each time .


Yes, and I completely agree with you on that.



> The dog in the video is still the same dog . If and when bred will produce more of the similar type.


Correct me if I am wrong, but that is exactly the type of dog they were looking for.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is absolutely not what I am looking for . I can not stand a hectic or frantic dog . 
That dog is not focused on the handler . Even in the food shoveling video two , the dog is distracted and the young lady goes into hyper wind mill mode getting the food out there to bring the dog back in. 

Carmen


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, you are absolutely correct, the dog before the training is what the dog is gentically. That is why my first post on this thread about this puppy was find out about the genetics of the puppy for trying to determine causation. With puppies this young, training is not an element of causation for the disturbing behavoirs....the probability is greater to be found in the genetics. Once you know the source of the issue...then you come up with solutions. An experienced person can watch this puppy in person and tell what is prompting the behavoir....even with that said, as Carmen is trying to say there are certain things that a sound strong nerved puppy should not be exhibiting. No, you can't diagnose over the internet, but you don't have to be there to know certain behavoirs that you have seen time and time and time again usually have certain origins. I hope the OP has the pup evaluated and lets us know what the causes were....it will benefit us all.


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