# Shield K9



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Am considering getting a puppy from Shield K9 that was bred by Haz Othman. Anyone on this board familiar with their dogs/reputation etc? Going off google reviews they are great but beyond that I can't find any other information. Perhaps some of the others on this forum from Canada know more about them?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Haz was a member here. I know nothing about his dogs but I would not hesitate to take his word for anything. If he says it's good, I would accept that.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

I have seen YT vids of his and the owner seems to know what he is doing. I talked to him briefly and seems quite knowledgeable, unfortunately I do not know of any of his pups but I would be shocked if they were not up to standards. Maybe ask him on Facebook for some past puppy buyers contact info to see how their experience was?


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

He seems quite knowledgeable. I had been considering taking Millie to a few training sessions with him if I can't handle her training myself. Can't comment on his puppies though.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have no experience with his dogs, but he's a legit trainer. We talk once in a while and his YouTube videos are forthcoming. He also readily talks about problems he's inadvertently created in his SCH dog and shows many of his training methods.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

That's interesting - what type of problems did he inadvertently create in his SCH dog? Is it a pure SCH dog or family dog too?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Family dog as well. I'll see if I can find the video. If I remember correctly it was a lack of tracking practice. Moving too quickly and blowing corners. Something else minor as well.

I took it as he was too busy with other dogs and slacked off on his own.

I thought it was great that he brought it up.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Family dog as well. I'll see if I can find the video. If I remember correctly it was a lack of tracking practice. Moving too quickly and blowing corners. Something else minor as well.
> 
> I took it as he was too busy with other dogs and slacked off on his own.
> 
> I thought it was great that he brought it up.


It was the tracking video I believe.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I like him as a trainer. There are lots of "flavors" of malinois, or working dogs of any breed, so even if his are great working dogs, ask a lot of questions and make sure it's what you want. He's a good breeder so he'll tell you his specific goals in breeding and for each pair.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> Am considering getting a puppy from Shield K9 that was bred by Haz Othman. Anyone on this board familiar with their dogs/reputation etc? Going off google reviews they are great but beyond that I can't find any other information. Perhaps some of the others on this forum from Canada know more about them?


Upkeep video.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I don't have firsthand experience with him, but I'd say you could do a _*whole lot worse*_ than one of his dogs. I'm also not in anyway affiliated with him so don't think I'm plugging for dog sales. Good luck.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

That video looks really interesting. Since I suck at training the idea of getting one that is fully trained is quite appealing. However, I didn't realize that one would need to keep an e collar on it at all times. Is that the norm for such highly trained dogs?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> That video looks really interesting. Since I suck at training the idea of getting one that is fully trained is quite appealing. However, I didn't realize that one would need to keep an e collar on it at all times. Is that the norm for such highly trained dogs?


That's not a highly trained dog. That's a dog started in obedience with a good foundation in house manners and socialization.

It is common to leave an e-collar on for random times and locations.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

When I am looking for a puppy I don’t usually ask the price I probably should start though Since he is a good trainer I would probably choose the extra 1000 for the 11000 pup seems like a bargain...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I’m not familiar with dogs he has breed. I was under the impression that he imported most of the puppies he sold. He looks like a great trainer from everything I’ve seen. I’d be curious about the support system that comes with a puppy from him.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i only wish his positive marker were stronger...to help the argument of verbal vs mechanical markers. sure they can both work - but i prefer the whiplash response i get to the sound of a clicker.

allows for more diversity in my training and capturing things when the dogs not always in “training mode”.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

David Winners said:


> That's not a highly trained dog. That's a dog started in obedience with a good foundation in house manners and socialization.
> 
> It is common to leave an e-collar on for random times and locations.


I didn't mean the particular puppy in that video per se - on their website it says a fully trained obedience dog still needs to keep the e collar on afterwards even after 3-4 months of hardcore training. I just had always thought trainers were able to get dogs to that point and no longer require a collar or whatever. But again, I know nothing about high level training so ...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sambazon said:


> I didn't mean the particular puppy in that video per se - on their website it says a fully trained obedience dog still needs to keep the e collar on afterwards even after 3-4 months of hardcore training. I just had always thought trainers were able to get dogs to that point and no longer require a collar or whatever. But again, I know nothing about high level training so ...


well the idea is to have it on but never need to use it.
the reason you want to put it on/off randomly is to prevent the dog from becoming “collar savvy” - only listening when the collar is on, or, expecting corrections every time it’s on.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> I didn't mean the particular puppy in that video per se - on their website it says a fully trained obedience dog still needs to keep the e collar on afterwards even after 3-4 months of hardcore training. I just had always thought trainers were able to get dogs to that point and no longer require a collar or whatever. But again, I know nothing about high level training so ...


I can get a dog to respond 100% of the time in that timeframe, to me. Dogs aren't machines, and they react to everyone in their lives on their own terms. If there is one thing a good trainer possesses, it's the ability to form a relationship with a dog that is 100% consistent. Very few owners can establish this kind of relationship. Therefore they need the ability to reinforce behaviors and punish failure to comply for a longer time to establish good habits and solid behaviors.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

I see. Does anyone know anyone who has ever bought a fully trained older puppy (not necessarily from Shield K9) and how it worked out for them? Seems tempting to me. I must admit while I love dogs, I am not as fond of the very young puppy phase and not a particularly skilled trainer myself.
I think Shield does import a lot of puppies to train but they have their own in house breeding program too. A fully trained obedience puppy at 4-5 months old is around $8K-$12k depending on whether or not it's fully off leash obedient too (according to their website)


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sambazon said:


> I see. Does anyone know anyone who has ever bought a fully trained older puppy (not necessarily from Shield K9) and how it worked out for them? Seems tempting to me. I must admit while I love dogs, I am not as fond of the very young puppy phase and not a particularly skilled trainer myself.
> I think Shield does import a lot of puppies to train but they have their own in house breeding program too. A fully trained obedience puppy at 4-5 months old is around $8K-$12k depending on whether or not it's fully off leash obedient too (according to their website)


That’s a lot of keesh bud. I would expect a young titled adult at that price.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i would not consider a 4-5mo puppy any more “fully trained” than i would a child of kindergarten age “fully educated” but.... by knowing their numbers, letters, some words, colors and concepts - you’ve got a head start.

personally i would not shell out $8-12k for an older pup, especially if you plan on sticking with this breed into the future. instead, invest in 1/1 training with your pup (generally a lot less than half the prices you’re quoting) and learn some invaluable skills that this dog will benefit from as well as every future dog.

question: have you spoken directly to shield K9 about your understanding and expectations of a trained puppy? giving them the opportunity to explain to you the level of commitment thereafter? aside from offering trained puppies.... are his dogs the type of dogs you’re after in general? training is only part of the equation.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

They seem to be quite hard to get ahold of. I had one conversation earlier in the week and am waiting for some follow up to additional questions. I do know one has to maintain the training daily, which is fine. I don't know if I'm accurate in this, but my thinking is bringing in an older puppy 4-7 months or whatever it is, makes me feel that is it safer than a young adult 1-2 years old. If I were single, I wouldn't care, but I have a fairly young but not toddler daughter.
I guess the argument one could make about an older puppy is that one has a better idea of what the puppy will turn into, as opposed to the 8 week old puppy where the breeder is making more of an educated guess, but it still has presumably more of a crapshoot aspect to it as to how the puppy turns out. I'm not looking for a cute family pet, I already have one dog like that, for this dog I'm looking for it to be safe around the family, while being natural protective with the potential for PPD or schutzhund training if I decide to go that route down the line.
I'm not particularly keen to shell out 11k, but if I paid 3k for a puppy from a great breeder and it didn't end up with the nerves or defense drive to be what I wanted, I would be far more disappointed, so wondering whether I should just pay more for the 'sure' thing. Problem of course is I know nothing about their actual dogs and don't really trust random dogs imported from europe whom I know even less about - worried about paying 11k for a dog that is not what they say it is. If it is what they say it is, then all good in my view, would be worth it.
Also, thank you to all of you that are responding to the thread, appreciate the input, especially on Xmas!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> They seem to be quite hard to get ahold of. I had one conversation earlier in the week and am waiting for some follow up to additional questions. I do know one has to maintain the training daily, which is fine. I don't know if I'm accurate in this, but my thinking is bringing in an older puppy 4-7 months or whatever it is, makes me feel that is it safer than a young adult 1-2 years old. If I were single, I wouldn't care, but I have a fairly young but not toddler daughter.
> I guess the argument one could make about an older puppy is that one has a better idea of what the puppy will turn into, as opposed to the 8 week old puppy where the breeder is making more of an educated guess, but it still has presumably more of a crapshoot aspect to it as to how the puppy turns out. I'm not looking for a cute family pet, I already have one dog like that, for this dog I'm looking for it to be safe around the family, while being natural protective with the potential for PPD or schutzhund training if I decide to go that route down the line.
> I'm not particularly keen to shell out 11k, but if I paid 3k for a puppy from a great breeder and it didn't end up with the nerves or defense drive to be what I wanted, I would be far more disappointed, so wondering whether I should just pay more for the 'sure' thing. Problem of course is I know nothing about their actual dogs and don't really trust random dogs imported from europe whom I know even less about - worried about paying 11k for a dog that is not what they say it is. If it is what they say it is, then all good in my view, would be worth it.
> Also, thank you to all of you that are responding to the thread, appreciate the input, especially on Xmas!


Go to the kennels. Meet Haz and the dogs there. Talk to him about this stuff in person.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Can't do it right now because of Covid border quarantine rules and who knows when this will even be the norm again. My wife would be pretty annoyed if I had to quarantine for 14 days both ways because I went to see a man about a dog


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Unless you think it’s related to time of year... i would also not take “hard to get ahold of” lightly. everyone is different, but i’m looking for a high level of communication, and especially for a first timer - the potential need for breeder support and follow up in the future.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Unless you think it’s related to time of year... i would also not take “hard to get ahold of” lightly. everyone is different, but i’m looking for a high level of communication, and especially for a first timer - the potential need for breeder support and follow up in the future.


Yeh that is a good point, I have been wondering about that. I don't know if I should view it as they are not desperate to sell their dogs (which can be good) or the negative outlook at that the communication and lack of breeder support following a purchase. I don't know, I just honestly think they would have been more communicative given it's a 11k puppy ...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sambazon said:


> They seem to be quite hard to get ahold of. I had one conversation earlier in the week and am waiting for some follow up to additional questions. I do know one has to maintain the training daily, which is fine. I don't know if I'm accurate in this, but my thinking is bringing in an older puppy 4-7 months or whatever it is, makes me feel that is it safer than a young adult 1-2 years old. If I were single, I wouldn't care, but I have a fairly young but not toddler daughter.
> I guess the argument one could make about an older puppy is that one has a better idea of what the puppy will turn into, as opposed to the 8 week old puppy where the breeder is making more of an educated guess, but it still has presumably more of a crapshoot aspect to it as to how the puppy turns out. I'm not looking for a cute family pet, I already have one dog like that, for this dog I'm looking for it to be safe around the family, while being natural protective with the potential for PPD or schutzhund training if I decide to go that route down the line.
> I'm not particularly keen to shell out 11k, but if I paid 3k for a puppy from a great breeder and it didn't end up with the nerves or defense drive to be what I wanted, I would be far more disappointed, so wondering whether I should just pay more for the 'sure' thing. Problem of course is I know nothing about their actual dogs and don't really trust random dogs imported from europe whom I know even less about - worried about paying 11k for a dog that is not what they say it is. If it is what they say it is, then all good in my view, would be worth it.
> Also, thank you to all of you that are responding to the thread, appreciate the input, especially on Xmas!


You can buy a puppy that might turn into what you want, or you can buy an adult that is what you want.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

If he's located in Canada the website might default to Canadian dollars. If that's the case an $8k dog would convert to a little over $6200.00 & $11k would be just over $8500.00 after USD exchange rate. Still a chunk of change.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> You can buy a puppy that might turn into what you want, or you can buy an adult that is what you want.


Haven't read this thread so making an assumption and comment based solely on this post... you can buy an adult that is what you want IF.. and that's a big IF... you are experienced, skilled and talented enough to know what you are looking at and can tell the difference between what is the dog and what is the training.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Haven't read this thread so making an assumption and comment based solely on this post... you can buy an adult that is what you want IF.. and that's a big IF... you are experienced, skilled and talented enough to know what you are looking at and can tell the difference between what is the dog and what is the training.


The difference to me is buying based on potential and buying based on what the dog is. Even the most skilled and experienced people are making guesses when they look at puppies. All dog purchases are a major investment. At 10 grand, I want to know the dog will protect, be good with the kids, is healthy, is trained, and will be able to perform the tasks I want them to.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> The difference to me is buying based on potential and buying based on what the dog is. Even the most skilled and experienced people are making guesses when they look at puppies. All dog purchases are a major investment. At 10 grand, I want to know the dog will protect, be good with the kids, is healthy, is trained, and will be able to perform the tasks I want them to.


At what age then do you think it is possible for an experienced person/breeder/trainer to have full clarity on a dog's personality as to those characteristics you named? and - do you think there are potentially more safety issues with the kids in bringing in a young adult as opposed to older puppy?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> At what age then do you think it is possible for an experienced person/breeder/trainer to have full clarity on a dog's personality as to those characteristics you named? and - do you think there are potentially more safety issues with the kids in bringing in a young adult as opposed to older puppy?


No offence, but if you have these questions, you need a 1 on 1 trainer to guide you through bringing a working dog into your home. It's not a case of just getting the right dog. You need to be the right handler as well. It's completely possible if you are willing to do the work, but don't expect a turnkey situation.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

No offence taken. I plan to get a 1 on 1 trainer too once I have the dog, regardless of if I have the puppy trained beforehand or not. I just thought that having it "fully obedienced trained" by Haz beforehand would make the subsequent additional training done by myself and another trainer much easier than starting from scratch. That said, if one is still not able to accurately predict what the puppy will turn out as an adult from 6 months old, maybe i should get consider a young adult instead around 1 year old.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sambazon said:


> No offence taken. I plan to get a 1 on 1 trainer too once I have the dog, regardless of if I have the puppy trained beforehand or not. I just thought that having it "fully obedienced trained" by Haz beforehand would make the subsequent additional training done by myself and another trainer much easier than starting from scratch. That said, if one is still not able to accurately predict what the puppy will turn out as an adult from 6 months old, maybe i should get consider a young adult instead around 1 year old.


Dogs mature between 3 and 4 years old.

They are pretty much who they are going to be by 16 months but they are still full of it. They will continue to gain focus and impulse control, along with confidence and work ethic, as they mature.

By 5 months, they have their personality. You don't know what their protection work is really going to be like until later, but you can tell what kind of dog they are. Most dogs will start to turn on about 6 months, after teething.

At 8 weeks, the breeder who has spent time with the litter has a good idea about personality, but drive is still up for grabs.

This all depends on your commitment to training and your expectations. It's easy to find a dog that will be good in your home and with your kids at a young age, providing the pup gets the appropriate training and daily exercise. The crux is you don't really know how they will be in protection until later. If you buy an older dog, you can have someone evaluate the dog for protection and then see how they are in your home.

Be honest about your goals. Do you really need a personal protection dog? That's an entire discussion on its own, but I'm going to just say you don't. Do you want to participate in sports? How important is the sport to you? If you can dabble and have fun, is that enough? Do you want podium performance and the lifestyle that accompanies that type of dog?


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

My goals are to have a dog that has enough nerve and defense drive to naturally be a little protective of the family - don't need him to be a superstar in protection training and no real interest in sports. I'm worried about getting a puppy that the breeder tells me has strong nerves and then when grown they become the type of dog that is more likely to flee then fight (the GSD in an Ivan Balabanov video I saw, was very aggressive growling and barking at a strange noise he heard and then when the 'intruder' came through the door, the GSD whimpered and ran off to hide!)

By same token, I am worried about paying a lot of money for an older dog that turns out when push comes to shove like the dog in the Balabanov video.

This is not to say I expect my dog to take down anyone that breaks into the house, I don't - I just want it to be braver than my neighbor's golden lab that was home when thieves broke in and practically greeted them as long lost buddies and casually watched while they ransacked the house and didn't even bark.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It takes a lot of dog to engage an intruder when home alone. The appearance of said dog is normal behavior for a solid GSD. Barking, charging, maybe a defensive bite trying to drive an intruder away. To expect the dog to actually engage and fight a man is another level of dog. I hope this helps put things in perspective.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> It takes a lot of dog to engage an intruder when home alone. The appearance of said dog is normal behavior for a solid GSD. Barking, charging, maybe a defensive bite trying to drive an intruder away. To expect the dog to actually engage and fight a man is another level of dog. I hope this helps put things in perspective.


Nope.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

I see. How about if the dog is not home alone - let's say my wife is walking with my daughter in a trail and a strange guy tries to snatch the child. Is it unreasonable to expect a GSD with strong nerves in this situation to do something even if not formally trained? Does it need to have a particular level of drive?

Basically, I don't want another dog that is just a pet dog, I already have one of those - cute, cuddly, utterly useless for anything else than being a lovable pet . Last thing I want from a GSD is something like that, but a bigger version.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sambazon said:


> My goals are to have a dog that has enough nerve and defense drive to naturally be a little protective of the family - don't need him to be a superstar in protection training and no real interest in sports. I'm worried about getting a puppy that the breeder tells me has strong nerves and then when grown they become the type of dog that is more likely to flee then fight (the GSD in an Ivan Balabanov video I saw, was very aggressive growling and barking at a strange noise he heard and then when the 'intruder' came through the door, the GSD whimpered and ran off to hide!)
> 
> By same token, I am worried about paying a lot of money for an older dog that turns out when push comes to shove like the dog in the Balabanov video.
> 
> This is not to say I expect my dog to take down anyone that breaks into the house, I don't - I just want it to be braver than my neighbor's golden lab that was home when thieves broke in and practically greeted them as long lost buddies and casually watched while they ransacked the house and didn't even bark.


Sabi was not at all protective of my house unless I was in it. 
You need to be very, very clear what you want. This is a situation where language matters. 
And you need to understand that there are a ton of protection trainer, not so many good ones. You also are going to need to be clear that your goal is protection, not the sport of protection, because there are vast differences.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sambazon said:


> My goals are to have a dog that has enough nerve and defense drive to naturally be a little protective of the family - don't need him to be a superstar in protection training and no real interest in sports. I'm worried about getting a puppy that the breeder tells me has strong nerves and then when grown they become the type of dog that is more likely to flee then fight (the GSD in an Ivan Balabanov video I saw, was very aggressive growling and barking at a strange noise he heard and then when the 'intruder' came through the door, the GSD whimpered and ran off to hide!)
> 
> By same token, I am worried about paying a lot of money for an older dog that turns out when push comes to shove like the dog in the Balabanov video.
> 
> This is not to say I expect my dog to take down anyone that breaks into the house, I don't - I just want it to be braver than my neighbor's golden lab that was home when thieves broke in and practically greeted them as long lost buddies and casually watched while they ransacked the house and didn't even bark.


If I was spending the amount of money you’re talking about on a dog, I would need to see him tested. I want to see him engage someone unknown to him, preferably without easily recognized equipment. I want to see him work in the situation I expect him to.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Nope.


Well thanks for your detailed perspective.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Yes I agree with that. Ideally I would want to go to Canada, take a couple prospective dogs out somewhere they haven't been before and have some random person they don't know attack them and see what happens. But COVID ...
Although I don't know Haz, I do have better faith in his ability than the American protection companies I have been looking at. At this point it's really do I get a puppy from a top reputable WL breeder and then send it to Haz or Balabanov or whomever later for protection training when it's an adult, or do I just get one of Haz's in-house bred puppies and wait on it to be trained by him.

The American companies I've spoken to seem to me to basically just import sport dogs from Eastern Europe and repurpose them as PPD dogs and sell them for 30,000 +


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sambazon said:


> Yes I agree with that. Ideally I would want to go to Canada, take a couple prospective dogs out somewhere they haven't been before and have some random person they don't know attack them and see what happens. But COVID ...
> Although I don't know Haz, I do have better faith in his ability than the American protection companies I have been looking at. At this point it's really do I get a puppy from a top reputable WL breeder and then send it to Haz or Balabanov or whomever later for protection training when it's an adult, or do I just get one of Haz's in-house bred puppies and wait on it to be trained by him.


Where are you located? It’s still tough sledding crossing the border from my understanding.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

New Jersey - had looked at 3 companies in America that seemed legit (CPI, Paladin K9, Protection Dogs Plus) but not entirely convinced by them, especially not CPI. The other 2 seem OK but very overpriced, though not to the extent Svalinn etc are.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Well thanks for your detailed perspective.


I think it’s to hard to illustrate the differences you are talking about with words. No so much the dog’s reaction, but what the personalities of those types of dogs are typically like.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I think it’s to hard to illustrate the differences you are talking about with words. No so much the dog’s reaction, but what the personalities of those types of dogs are typically like.


Ok


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sambazon said:


> New Jersey - had looked at 3 companies in America that seemed legit (CPI, Paladin K9, Protection Dogs Plus) but not entirely convinced by them, especially not CPI. The other 2 seem OK but very overpriced, though not to the extent Svalinn etc are.


T Floyd is in New Jersey. I would talk to him to learn more.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Thanks I will check him out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> T Floyd is in New Jersey. I would talk to him to learn more.


This should be your first move Sambazon. If you pay 11,000 for a 4 month old puppy, you're gonna be kicking yourself when you see exactly what you have available to you at a 1/3 of that.


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## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

My pup is 5 months and I raised her from 8 weeks. She knows all the foundation commands that Haz promises a young trained pup should know. GSDs are smart and you don't need to be a super star trainer to train those commands. I haven't proofed with an e-collar or prong because she's still not 6 months (and I also don't have the the heart to) but if I did she would be very responsive to it and would be a quick learner. I wouldn't pay 8-11k for that level of training, but I love dogs and enjoy the training/learning process!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sambazon said:


> A fully trained obedience puppy at 4-5 months old is around $8K-$12k *depending on whether or not it's fully off leash obedient too *(according to their website)


Oh man, am I in the wrong business.
scribbles furiously.....3 litters a year...20 puppies....10K apiece.....it's not an absolute fortune and you have to consider the cost of food and upkeep for your breeding program but if playing and training 20 puppies per year is your thing


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Oh man, am I in the wrong business.
> scribbles furiously.....3 litters a year...20 puppies....10K apiece.....it's not an absolute fortune and you have to consider the cost of food and upkeep for your breeding program but if playing and training 20 puppies per year is your thing


Honestly... You can tell he knows his stuff and definitely quite good at it. They are making some good money


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WNGD said:


> Oh man, am I in the wrong business.
> scribbles furiously.....3 litters a year...20 puppies....10K apiece.....it's not an absolute fortune and you have to consider the cost of food and upkeep for your breeding program but if playing and training 20 puppies per year is your thing


I could play with puppies for an income!
I know you are kidding, but the man in question breeds about 1 litter a year and the rest of his income is training and the dogs he imports. He also seems to hold all the pups back, so he is maintaining them for longer.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> Oh man, am I in the wrong business.
> scribbles furiously.....3 litters a year...20 puppies....10K apiece.....it's not an absolute fortune and you have to consider the cost of food and upkeep for your breeding program but if playing and training 20 puppies per year is your thing


You know I’ve seen board and trains run everywhere from 1200-3000 a month if that’s what you want. Just offer to bring in people’s young puppies and teach them a bunch of manners starting off. You’ll get crazy reviews just from housetraining, getting rid of the puppy biting, and teaching sit stay, down stay, and recalls. This isn’t a shot at this trainer by the way. I don’t know what his program entails. These are just things that would make pet owners fall in love with you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> You know I’ve seen board and trains run everywhere from 1200-3000 a month if that’s what you want. Just offer to bring in people’s young puppies and teach them a bunch of manners starting off. You’ll get crazy reviews just from housetraining, getting rid of the puppy biting, and teaching sit stay, down stay, and recalls. This isn’t a shot at this trainer by the way. I don’t know what his program entails. These are just things that would make pet owners fall in love with you.


Stonnie Dennis, who is very good at socialization, manners and basic puppy stuff, $3750 for 4-6 weeks.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Stonnie Dennis, who is very good at socialization, manners and basic puppy stuff, $3750 for 4-6 weeks.


That’s out of this world. Stonnie is good at what he does. That’s a killing though. I could live like a king training three puppies a month. I should pay him a visit to see his business plan.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm very good at manners, socialization and puppy stuff! What can I charge? I'm keeping them though.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm very good at manners, socialization and puppy stuff! What can I charge? I'm keeping them though.


I would base it on how much your lawyer charges. I would only send dogs I know you wouldn’t like anyways.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I would base it on how much your lawyer charges. I would only send dogs I know you wouldn’t like anyways.


Ok what if I give some back? Just the ones I don't like? My lawyer would totally work for puppies!


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Ok what if I give some back? Just the ones I don't like? My lawyer would totally work for puppies!


I can assist you with your program.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> You know I’ve seen board and trains run everywhere from 1200-3000 a month if that’s what you want. Just offer to bring in people’s young puppies and teach them a bunch of manners starting off. You’ll get crazy reviews just from housetraining, getting rid of the puppy biting, and teaching sit stay, down stay, and recalls. This isn’t a shot at this trainer by the way. I don’t know what his program entails. These are just things that would make pet owners fall in love with you.


Then I could make videos of me walking 17 dogs on leashes through town and put it to music online and get a bunch of my friends to make good comments. Oprah would call, I'd write a book that she'd recommend ..... retirement here i come.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Ok what if I give some back? Just the ones I don't like? My lawyer would totally work for puppies!


You're going to need a lot of good reviews to make up for the people who never get their dogs back. I guess you could just keep telling them the dog needs more time until you say its not a good fit for them and replace it with one you aren't keeping.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> You're going to need a lot of good reviews to make up for the people who never get their dogs back. I guess you could just keep telling them the dog needs more time until you say its not a good fit for them and replace it with one you aren't keeping.





SuperAndre said:


> I can assist you with your program.


I am gonna blame @Magwart. Totally novel business plan. Board and keep!
I will take all the help I can get.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> That’s out of this world. Stonnie is good at what he does. That’s a killing though. I could live like a king training three puppies a month. I should pay him a visit to see his business plan.


He trains 30 a month.

That's part of what makes it all work though. The pack of mentor and partially trained dogs. He's got a great setup. I'm visiting in a couple weeks.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

For the record, I'm not putting Stonnie on blast here. He's paid his dues. He knows what he's doing. He's built a program over decades.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I am gonna blame @Magwart. Totally novel business plan. Board and keep!
> I will take all the help I can get.


I don't want my commission for the idea in puppies. I've got enough of those. I want in-kind service instead. 

I'll ship you all the juvenile delinquents who get thrown out of their homes for gnawing on the kids. You figure out what to do with them. David will tell us where the titanium crates come from. You laugh, but I know how to reach the Pilots N Paws people!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Magwart said:


> I don't want my commission for the idea in puppies. I've got enough of those. I want in-kind service instead.
> 
> I'll ship you all the juvenile delinquents who get thrown out of their homes for gnawing on the kids. You figure out what to do with them. David will tell us where the titanium crates come from. You laugh, but I know how to reach the Pilots N Paws people!


Send me any that break out of the titanium crates


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> He trains 30 a month.
> 
> That's part of what makes it all work though. The pack of mentor and partially trained dogs. He's got a great setup. I'm visiting in a couple weeks.


30!!?? I don't know where my limit is, but I think it's safely below 30. Let me know how that visit goes.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> 30!!?? I don't know where my limit is, but I think it's safely below 30. Let me know how that visit goes.


My training load at the kennels was 28, and Stonnie has Eli to help run dogs.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

David Winners said:


> My training load at the kennels was 28, and Stonnie has Eli to help run dogs.


His son probably does a bit too now that he’s gotten older. No doubt Uncle Stonnie is making bank. I would think he has more than 30 dogs at a time considering he has different groups of dogs or at least that’s how he makes it seem with his videos online. I look forward to hearing how a visit is.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> My training load at the kennels was 28, and Stonnie has Eli to help run dogs.


That sound like a nonstop day, especially with working dogs. Sometimes I envy you for that job, and sometimes I don't


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> 30!!?? I don't know where my limit is, but I think it's safely below 30. Let me know how that visit goes.


Most dogs I've had was 21. It was a full time job. Some mine, most fosters.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> That sound like a nonstop day, especially with working dogs. Sometimes I envy you for that job, and sometimes I don't


It was rewarding. Typically 11 hour days. Most of my training was detection and OB. I also did a lot of fixing problem dogs on top of my 28. 

I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't do it now. I'm too busted up to handle that many dogs in a day.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Most dogs I've had was 21. It was a full time job. Some mine, most fosters.


Yea it is, especially since you took them home.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> It was rewarding. Typically 11 hour days. Most of my training was detection and OB. I also did a lot of fixing problem dogs on top of my 28.
> 
> I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't do it now. I'm too busted up to handle that many dogs in a day.


We'll see what the future holds. I still need time for my terrors. I've still got most of my health.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> It was rewarding. Typically 11 hour days. Most of my training was detection and OB. I also did a lot of fixing problem dogs on top of my 28.
> 
> I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't do it now. I'm too busted up to handle that many dogs in a day.


I notice they are 1 hour 45 minutes away. I guess I'll call tomorrow to schedule a visit and see how things work there.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I notice they are 1 hour 45 minutes away. I guess I'll call tomorrow to schedule a visit and see how things work there.


I'm not sure who is at the west kennels. It was just coming online when I was there. Check em out! Great place to get a green dog if you are looking.


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## Amanda B (Apr 27, 2021)

Sambazon said:


> Am considering getting a puppy from Shield K9 that was bred by Haz Othman. Anyone on this board familiar with their dogs/reputation etc? Going off google reviews they are great but beyond that I can't find any other information. Perhaps some of the others on this forum from Canada know more about them?


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## Amanda B (Apr 27, 2021)

Sambazon said:


> I see. Does anyone know anyone who has ever bought a fully trained older puppy (not necessarily from Shield K9) and how it worked





Sambazon said:


> Am considering getting a puppy from Shield K9 that was bred by Haz Othman. Anyone on this board familiar with their dogs/reputation etc? Going off google reviews they are great but beyond that I can't find any other information. Perhaps some of the others on this forum from Canada know more about them?


I have a dog from him, she's great. I also have another dog that I brought to his place for training (hence how I found the place). We worked with Sal mainly, Dylan is great so far too. If you get a puppy, bring back there for the training, you won't regret it. (I've been to 3 different training facilities and stayed with them).


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Haz posted this a day or so ago; Retiring Onyx:


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