# This sounds stupid, but I am too.



## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

What if I give myself a challenge, what if I a puppy all the way to 5 years(typically the age of a finished dog) using NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical. And I want to point out I AM NOT against these tools in fact I’ve always used them. But it would be a interesting learning experience. I would still use verbal corrections and NRM, just nothing physical. What are your opinions? I just like trying new things. Keep in mind if I did this it would be in a few years, currently I’m in the process of getting a working line female GS for protection sport and sense I’ve been waiting for years for a working line GS for that I think it’s smart for her not to be the “experiment puppy”. Tell me if I’m being an idiot like I normally am.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

n my opinion, it would depend on the character and temperament of the dog. With my first german shepherd Tessa, your experiment would have been successful, with my current dog Nitro, nope.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

All positive training is catching on in sport. Let me recommend a book that a K9 trainer recommended to me: 









Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition: Booth, Sheila: 9780966302004: Amazon.com: Books


Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition [Booth, Sheila] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition



www.amazon.com


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

A lot would depend on the dog and what it is you expect from them. I believe that if you wait that long you’re going to br past the point of no return so to speak. What I mean is if you were to start using corrections at that point, I would expect a substantial drop in motivation from the dog. There are people on this board who never use those types of corrections from my understanding of their posts. I personally wouldn’t do it. I have questions on the reliability of a dog that is never corrected. I believe it comes into play in situations where the unwanted behavior is self-rewarding. A situation that comes to mind for would be training a distance down and the dog decides to chase a rabbit. The rabbit. There is a Michael Ellis video that I can’t find for the life of me where he performs a similar experiment. He waits until the dog is two to begin corrections and the results were disastrous.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All positive training is catching on in sport. Let me recommend a book that a K9 trainer recommended to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s interesting, thanks


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> A lot would depend on the dog and what it is you expect from them. I believe that if you wait that long you’re going to br past the point of no return so to speak. What I mean is if you were to start using corrections at that point, I would expect a substantial drop in motivation from the dog. There are people on this board who never use those types of corrections from my understanding of their posts. I personally wouldn’t do it. I have questions on the reliability of a dog that is never corrected. I believe it comes into play in situations where the unwanted behavior is self-rewarding. A situation that comes to mind for would be training a distance down and the dog decides to chase a rabbit. The rabbit. There is a Michael Ellis video that I can’t find for the life of me where he performs a similar experiment. He waits until the dog is two to begin corrections and the results were disastrous.


What if you never physically corrected


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Get in touch with Shade Whitsel. She's titled several dogs to SCH3 with no corrections


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Get in touch with Shade Whitsel. She's titled several dogs to SCH3 with no corrections



Ok thanks


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

I’m already doing this experiment  
Here’s what I’ve learned so far... I think it only works if you have patience of steel and unlimited time together (like a pandemic lockdown) 😂
The ONLY way I pulled it off is I had literally nowhere to be for weeks and I could wander around aimlessly for hours. We had no schedule and just frolicked around fields without a care in the world because there were no people or cars on the road. We were together 24/7 and built such an immense bond that I’ll probably never get with another dog. She doesn’t leave my side ever... if she chases something in the woods all I have to do it make a noise to remind her how far away I am and she comes right back. Tracking is still tracking, obedience is not AS easy but the motivation is there. 
I can’t see this training method really taking off because there is way too much work involved but I think even just reducing corrections will work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MakoCheese said:


> What if you never physically corrected


In my opinion, the things that become harder are proofing, precision, fixing training mistakes, and changing bad habits. You would need to know exactly what you wanted your dog to be and how you were going to get there. You would have less room for error and a longer road to fixing those errors. You would also need to have a dog with the right temperament. That’s my take for what it’s worth.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

In Holland, I believe e collars, prongs and chokes are banned now. So it will be interesting to see the results from there.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> In my opinion, the things that become harder are proofing, precision, fixing training mistakes, and changing bad habits. You would need to know exactly what you wanted your dog to be and how you were going to get there. You would have less room for error and a longer road to fixing those errors. You would also need to have a dog with the right temperament. That’s my take for what it’s worth.


What if you have such good leadership and relationship with the dog the dog respects you so much you only need a verbal? From what I know structure comes from control of all aspects of the dogs life, leash on in the house or in a create, leash on to go to outside etc...


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> In Holland, I believe e collars, prongs and chokes are banned now. So it will be interesting to see the results from there.


They just drive to Germany or Belgium now to buy one lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It can most certainly be done. I think Bearshandler hit the nail on the head. Shade is successful because she is an amazing trainer, and has seen the errors she has made come to light in the adult dog. She can now tailor her training to avoid those errors. 

BTW, she doesn't train soft dogs. They are the real deal.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MakoCheese said:


> What if you have such good leadership and relationship with the dog the dog respects you so much you only need a verbal? From what I know structure comes from control of all aspects of the dogs life, leash on in the house or in a create, leash on to go to outside etc...


You know one of the refrains I get from my training director is too much control and not enough play. Not enough letting the dog be a dog. I would say structure comes from routine and clear concise expectations. You walk a tough road. Out of drive in obedience for instance, verbal corrections are pretty effective on my dog. In drive, when the anger and aggression come out, those verbal corrections aren’t changing his mind. I would say everything I said remains true.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> You know one of the refrains I get from my training director is too much control and not enough play. Not enough letting the dog be a dog. I would say structure comes from routine and clear concise expectations. You walk a tough road. Out of drive in obedience for instance, verbal corrections are pretty effective on my dog. In drive, when the anger and aggression come out, those verbal corrections aren’t changing his mind. I would say everything I said remains true.


This is where reward selection comes into play. I love using a bite as a reward for OB in drive.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

iBite said:


> They just drive to Germany or Belgium now to buy one lol


I’m not there nor am I super involved in the training scene there, so I can’t make a comment like that. If it was happening, that information would not be freely given I’d think. I would expect a portion of trainers at least to move away them with the law like that, especially if it stays long term.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

David Winners said:


> This is where reward selection comes into play. I love using a bite as a reward for OB in drive.


Yes


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MakoCheese said:


> What if I give myself a challenge, what if I a puppy all the way to 5 years(typically the age of a finished dog) using NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical. And I want to point out I AM NOT against these tools in fact I’ve always used them. But it would be a interesting learning experience. I would still use verbal corrections and NRM, just nothing physical. What are your opinions? I just like trying new things. Keep in mind if I did this it would be in a few years, currently I’m in the process of getting a working line female GS for protection sport and sense I’ve been waiting for years for a working line GS for that I think it’s smart for her not to be the “experiment puppy”. Tell me if I’m being an idiot like I normally am.


When I got Sabi I had two young kids in the house, I worked a full time and then some job. I was busy, and I did not want a puppy. 
Now Sabs was just a nothing from nowhere dog. BYB shepherd. 
Anyway, I mostly treated her like another kid. She sniffed at the garbage, I said we don't do that here. I had my son take her food to her mat and told her it was dinner time. She knew what bedtime meant. I really just treated her like a kid. She went everywhere we went, did everything we did. She was trained on a flat collar, did all her protection training in a harness. I seldom said no, I redirected a lot.
That dog had an incredible vocabulary, understood everything I said, I seldom used a leash outside of work and she always knew where I was. She could be 100 ft out and if I changed direction so did she. 
Her obedience, straight obedience was lacking. Not that she didn't listen, more that she did not like commands and grew bored with being paraded about. She passed all her certifications at 18 months, on a flat collar.
I think with the right dog and handler combo anything is possible.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> When I got Sabi I had two young kids in the house, I worked a full time and then some job. I was busy, and I did not want a puppy.
> Now Sabs was just a nothing from nowhere dog. BYB shepherd.
> Anyway, I mostly treated her like another kid. She sniffed at the garbage, I said we don't do that here. I had my son take her food to her mat and told her it was dinner time. She knew what bedtime meant. I really just treated her like a kid. She went everywhere we went, did everything we did. She was trained on a flat collar, did all her protection training in a harness. I seldom said no, I redirected a lot.
> That dog had an incredible vocabulary, understood everything I said, I seldom used a leash outside of work and she always knew where I was. She could be 100 ft out and if I changed direction so did she.
> ...


That’s awesome, thanks for the input.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Check out Denise Fenzi's FB page. She is raising a Terv for Mondio and does not use physical corrections. She has been posting videos of her training sessions.

Also a lot of Dave Kroyer's training videos do not involve physical corrections.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Bramble said:


> Check out Denise Fenzi's FB page. She is raising a Terv for Mondio and does not use physical corrections. She has been posting videos of her training sessions.
> 
> Also a lot of Dave Kroyer's training videos do not involve physical corrections.


Ok thanks I will look into them


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not using tools of compulsion and not using a correction are not the same thing. Withholding the reward is a correction. Do you want to train the dog without any corrections? Or do you want to train the dog without any compulsion tools? And what do you consider a compulsion tool? I've seen trainers pop a dog on a fursaver into the footstep for tracking. Do you consider that compulsion? Or do you understand that when a dog is 33' from you that you need something that has been taught to tell them to get their head back down?

Most trainers, in this up and coming generation, believe in shaping behavior and training the dog so there are very few corrections until you get to the proofing stage. Training should be 95% positive teaching and training. That other 5% could be as simple as telling the dog No. Withholding the reward. Or giving a physical correction. That could depend on the age of the dog, level of training, how hard the dog is, your relationship with your dog or how quickly you want to get your point across.

When I look at a trainer, I don't just look at what they've done personally. I also want to know how many teams have been coached to the levels that I want to compete at. And I want to see those results reproduced with different dogs of different lines. 

IMO, your idea isn't stupid. I just think you need to really define what you want and understand better all the pieces of training depending on how high you want to go.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Not using tools of compulsion and not using a correction are not the same thing. Withholding the reward is a correction. Do you want to train the dog without any corrections? Or do you want to train the dog without any compulsion tools? And what do you consider a compulsion tool? I've seen trainers pop a dog on a fursaver into the footstep for tracking. Do you consider that compulsion? Or do you understand that when a dog is 33' from you that you need something that has been taught to tell them to get their head back down?
> 
> Most trainers, in this up and coming generation, believe in shaping behavior and training the dog so there are very few corrections until you get to the proofing stage. Training should be 95% positive teaching and training. That other 5% could be as simple as telling the dog No. Withholding the reward. Or giving a physical correction. That could depend on the age of the dog, level of training, how hard the dog is, your relationship with your dog or how quickly you want to get your point across.
> 
> ...


I mean not to use any leash or physical corrections, only using verbal corrections and none reward markers. So not purely positive just nothing physical. I feel like it will push me out of my comfort zone of dog training, and I feel like it would be a good learning experience.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I checked out a few of Shade’s YouTube vids. It was really easy watching she uses captions to explain what the dog did or does and what she did to help him correct himself. Very effective. 

I think your challenge to yourself will be a good thing no matter how it pans out. Especially since you stated that you do not have an aversion to the tools you listed. I don’t think you will stay blindly married to that challenge if it isn’t working out for you or your pup.

Our very first dog was a very large mix and I only remember one time in his nine years of life where I physically corrected him. It was a swat on the butt at 9 mo old when he jumped up to the table to scoff some roast beef. After the swat he never stole food again. And it was only one swat and “don’t ever do that again”! Lol


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

How long were you planning on not using a leash? Around 10-11 weeks I had to put a leash and collar on her and just had it dragging on the ground most of the time but there are just too many dangers around to not have it on... animal poop, wild mushrooms, puddles, leaves blowing in the roads, etc. We also have coyotes. The first two weeks weren’t a problem because we weren’t going that deep in the woods and I could run and pick her up if I had to but after that if a coyote showed up and she didn’t have a leash, she’d be done. They’re quick and dart out of nowhere once they learn your behaviours and where you walk.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical" but over 6 GSD so far, I have never owned or used a prong, e-collar choke or slip etc.

Just a flat collar, firm communication, tons of bonding. No furniture or sharing beds. And just about zero treats in training. Actually, absolute zero treats in training until the current pup and still few and far between.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

iBite said:


> How long were you planning on not using a leash? Around 10-11 weeks I had to put a leash and collar on her and just had it dragging on the ground most of the time but there are just too many dangers around to not have it on... animal poop, wild mushrooms, puddles, leaves blowing in the roads, etc. We also have coyotes. The first two weeks weren’t a problem because we weren’t going that deep in the woods and I could run and pick her up if I had to but after that if a coyote showed up and she didn’t have a leash, she’d be done. They’re quick and dart out of nowhere once they learn your behaviours and where you walk.


I didn’t say I wouldn’t use a leash I just said when training I would not use “leash pops” or any physical correction.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical" but over 6 GSD so far, I have never owned or used a prong, e-collar choke or slip etc.
> 
> Just a flat collar, firm communication, tons of bonding. No furniture or sharing beds. And just about zero treats in training. Actually, absolute zero treats in training until the current pup and still few and far between.


No no leash corrections or using hands, that’s what I meant. But I would still use verbal.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MakoCheese said:


> No no leash corrections or using hands, that’s what I meant. But I would still use verbal.


Ian Dunbar preaches a no hands approach. I am not real familiar with his work but he has written books with at least one on training. However, he is a strictly off leash kind of trainer. ..


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Ian Dunbar preaches a no hands approach. I am not real familiar with his work but he has written books with at least one on training. However, he is a strictly off leash kind of trainer. ..


I like off leash trainers, I will look into him. Thanks


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MakoCheese said:


> I mean not to use any leash or physical corrections, only using verbal corrections and none reward markers. So not purely positive just nothing physical. I feel like it will push me out of my comfort zone of dog training, and I feel like it would be a good learning experience.


It's not stupid for sure and I think it would certainly help build your knowledge as a trainer. Plenty of people never use physical corrections or aversives on a dog. It seems to me like if you never have to use a physical correction or tool in that way you're doing pretty good and likely have an excellent bond and working relationship with the dog. Good luck if you go through with it!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Ian Dunbar preaches a no hands approach. I am not real familiar with his work but he has written books with at least one on training. However, he is a strictly off leash kind of trainer. ..


I'm slowly becoming an off leash trainer myself, at least with the last GSD and this pup. I put a leash on him to manage him in a store or restaurant, but for the most part he's always off leash. I'm a big believer in relationship, and when it's there, it's easier. It doesn't hurt that Valor is incredibly biddable.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I'm slowly becoming an off leash trainer myself, at least with the last GSD and this pup. I put a leash on him to manage him in a store or restaurant, but for the most part he's always off leash. I'm a big believer in relationship, and when it's there, it's easier. It doesn't hurt that Valor is incredibly biddable.


That's what I do. If I have to take them to a vet, other place of business or if there is a traffic risk, they are leashed. Elsewise, it's no leash until the dog is over a year and then it's only for training. 

I can't wait to see you turn the corner and start doing it all on a flat collar except for specialty training. 😁


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's what I do. If I have to take them to a vet, other place of business or if there is a traffic risk, they are leashed. Elsewise, it's no leash until the dog is over a year and then it's only for training.
> 
> I can't wait to see you turn the corner and start doing it all on a flat collar except for specialty training. 😁


I've been thinking ahead and I have an idea for training leash pressure without aversives. I'm a prong collar trainer for leash work, a la Tyler Muto, and I think I can convey the same message on a flat collar using +R and -P once he is tugging really well.

We are working on his mechanics now, doing hind end movement on a perch, tuck sits, kick back stands, rear folding down, engagement, short retrieve sessions (3-4 reps), a little rag work and wrestling.

All easy going. Light work. Short sessions then free play. It's cool how 5 fun reps can sink in. The next session shows how much he retained. Overnight is even more dramatic.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I've been thinking ahead and I have an idea for training leash pressure without aversives. I'm a prong collar trainer for leash work, a la Tyler Muto, and I think I can convey the same message on a flat collar using +R and -P once he is tugging really well.
> 
> We are working on his mechanics now, doing hind end movement on a perch, tuck sits, kick back stands, rear folding down, engagement, short retrieve sessions (3-4 reps), a little rag work and wrestling.
> 
> All easy going. Light work. Short sessions then free play. It's cool how 5 fun reps can sink in. The next session shows how much he retained. Overnight is even more dramatic.


I like Tyler Muto's leash pressure work. Even though he prefers a prong, he supports a variety of collars, even Haltis, for the process.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I like Tyler Muto's leash pressure work. Even though he prefers a prong, he supports a variety of collars, even Haltis, for the process.


Tyler supports anything that works and doesn't hurt the relationship with the dog. He's a savvy trainer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Tyler supports anything that works and doesn't hurt the relationship with the dog. He's a savvy trainer.


I think that is the trademark of any good trainer.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think that is the trademark of any good trainer.


I'm the first one to admit that, other than training humans, keeping your ego in check is the hardest part of dog training. My brain wants to see what it wants to see. Taking off my rose colored glasses is difficult, particularly when looking in the mirror.

Honest, objective assessments of progress and failure are necessary. If you can do that, then a particular piece of equipment or training technique becomes far less important than how the dog is progressing or regressing.

Every training method works. Every piece of equipment works. One may be better suited for a given situation. That situation includes the proficiency of the trainer as well as the temperament of the dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I'm the first one to admit that, other than training humans, keeping your ego in check is the hardest part of dog training. My brain wants to see what it wants to see. Taking off my rose colored glasses is difficult, particularly when looking in the mirror.
> 
> Honest, objective assessments of progress and failure are necessary. If you can do that, then a particular piece of equipment or training technique becomes far less important than how the dog is progressing or regressing.
> 
> Every training method works. Every piece of equipment works. One may be better suited for a given situation. That situation includes the proficiency of the trainer as well as the temperament of the dog.


Maybe. 😁

A house is only as good as its foundation. 

How much of your current training with Valor is shaping vs luring?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I'm the first one to admit that, other than training humans, keeping your ego in check is the hardest part of dog training. My brain wants to see what it wants to see. Taking off my rose colored glasses is difficult, particularly when looking in the mirror.
> 
> Honest, objective assessments of progress and failure are necessary. If you can do that, then a particular piece of equipment or training technique becomes far less important than how the dog is progressing or regressing.
> 
> Every training method works. Every piece of equipment works. One may be better suited for a given situation. That situation includes the proficiency of the trainer as well as the temperament of the dog.


The hard part for me has always been dealing with the failures. It’s taking that step back when something isn’t working how you expect. I also fall victim to timelines and not meeting the arbitrary expectations I set. Working at the dogs pace doesn’t always come easy.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe. 😁
> 
> A house is only as good as its foundation.
> 
> How much of your current training with Valor is shaping vs luring?


Well, that's a hard question to answer unless you first define training.

If you mean formal training sessions, those are 50% luring, 50% shaping. I lure positions. I started place and touch with lures but now those are shaped. Recall is all shaped.

If you mean all the time we spend together where I am giving the dog feedback with an occasional reward for a zoomie recall or front with eye contact or throwing a behavior that he has recently learned, the ratio changes considerably.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> The hard part for me has always been dealing with the failures. It’s taking that step back when something isn’t working how you expect. I also fall victim to timelines and not meeting the arbitrary expectations I set. Working at the dogs pace doesn’t always come easy.


I am in the same boat when working with a client dog. Working with my own diff relieves all those time restraints and allows me to just have fun with it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Well, that's a hard question to answer unless you first define training.
> 
> If you mean formal training sessions, those are 50% luring, 50% shaping. I lure positions. I started place and touch with lures but now those are shaped. Recall is all shaped.
> 
> If you mean all the time we spend together where I am giving the dog feedback with an occasional reward for a zoomie recall or front with eye contact or throwing a behavior that he has recently learned, the ratio changes considerably.


I was thinking more along the lines of offered behaviors including place and touch, no luring involved. I am hearing that it makes a difference in fostering a thinking dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of offered behaviors including place and touch, no luring involved. I am hearing that it makes a difference in fostering a thinking dog.


Thanks for the context.

I very much agree that balancing luring and discovery leads to a thinking dog.


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## Vermonter (Jul 3, 2020)

MakoCheese said:


> What if I give myself a challenge, what if I a puppy all the way to 5 years(typically the age of a finished dog) using NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical. And I want to point out I AM NOT against these tools in fact I’ve always used them. But it would be a interesting learning experience. I would still use verbal corrections and NRM, just nothing physical. What are your opinions? I just like trying new things. Keep in mind if I did this it would be in a few years, currently I’m in the process of getting a working line female GS for protection sport and sense I’ve been waiting for years for a working line GS for that I think it’s smart for her not to be the “experiment puppy”. Tell me if I’m being an idiot like I normally am.


Understanding all the tools, when and where and HOW to use them is essential. Life for dogs never comes without a NO of some form..lwatch how mothers reprimand their puppies. You say only YES is an imbalanced way of training.
the foundational issue with P+ is...it is UNRELIABLE.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

IMO, it depends on the dog, the handler, and life experiences. I’ve raised four puppies, and fostered a ton of dogs. Some dogs, purely positive would work. Others, not so much.

My current dog was attacked twice by other dogs before 1 year old. As a result, he would aggressively go after other dogs even off leash. He needed corrections to let him know that aggressive behavior would not be tolerated. Positive approaches didn’t work to get him over it. I tried redirecting and distraction first. What he needed to know was that I disagreed with his behavior. A balanced trainer helped me sort it out and he’s a completely different dog.

Purely positive may work for some, but I needed a dog I could live with and take places. That required a more balanced approach.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

IllinoisNative said:


> IMO, it depends on the dog, the handler, and life experiences. I’ve raised four puppies, and fostered a ton of dogs. Some dogs, purely positive would work. Others, not so much.
> 
> My current dog was attacked twice by other dogs before 1 year old. As a result, he would aggressively go after other dogs even off leash. He needed corrections to let him know that aggressive behavior would not be tolerated. Positive approaches didn’t work to get him over it. I tried redirecting and distraction first. What he needed to know was that I disagreed with his behavior. A balanced trainer helped me sort it out and he’s a completely different dog.
> 
> Purely positive may work for some, but I needed a dog I could live with and take places. That required a more balanced approach.


It’s not purely positive, if you yell no! At the dog or use none reward markers you’re not doing purely positive.


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## MakoCheese (Mar 23, 2020)

Vermonter said:


> Understanding all the tools, when and where and HOW to use them is essential. Life for dogs never comes without a NO of some form..lwatch how mothers reprimand their puppies. You say only YES is an imbalanced way of training.
> the foundational issue with P+ is...it is UNRELIABLE.


I never said I will only say yes, did you even read the message? If you use none reward markers and yell no! At the dog that is not only saying yes. All I said was no physical corrections. I have a feeling tools are going to be banned soon, I feel like trainers are getting to attached to their tools. What are they going to do when they are illegal to own? I also said I know how to use tools and I have always used them, but now I think I should learn how to train without tools.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I have owned and trained many dogs without prong collars or ecollars or choke chains or slip leads or many other things people call "tools". Using said tools make it quicker, no doubt about it. But the dialog you develop without these "tools" is priceless!


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> You know one of the refrains I get from my training director is too much control and not enough play. Not enough letting the dog be a dog. I would say structure comes from routine and clear concise expectations. You walk a tough road. Out of drive in obedience for instance, verbal corrections are pretty effective on my dog. In drive, when the anger and aggression come out, those verbal corrections aren’t changing his mind. I would say everything I said remains true.


Hence why I use a ball for his reward ex: dog sitting in front of helper fixated on him as he should be I say ‘Fus’ move out to the R dog gets ball for his reward. Super to have a ball crazy dog who will take the ball during protection some need to be trained to take the ball as a reward during protection


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "NO forms of physical corrections, no prong, ecollar, choke, slip nothing physical" but over 6 GSD so far, I have never owned or used a prong, e-collar choke or slip etc.
> 
> Just a flat collar, firm communication, tons of bonding. No furniture or sharing beds. And just about zero treats in training. Actually, absolute zero treats in training until the current pup and still few and far between.


That is very impressive. Not even a prong? I had to use prong on my current 9 month old "leash reactive towards dogs" working line gsd. And with the help of a competition gsd trainer and her 4 ring sport gsd's as helpers, we used the E to correct his lunging. His off leash obedience is very good. But cannot imagine not using a prong on a high drive pup. I believe in positive and negative method. I believe in correcting early on with leash pressure then with holding his favorite toy as negative when off leash. His recall in the woods is 100%, but still I would never go off leash hiking without an E Collar. Thats just me and how I work with my dog. We are together almost 24/7. I take him everywhere with me including going to the gym (since it's outdoors now). He is ok with people but I dont encourage anyone to just come up to him to pet. He is always off leash but he wears his prong and drags around his leash while I am working out. I don't care how well trained a dog is, but they are still animals and anything can trigger a dog to have a brain fart. If I am going to take my dog everywhere with me and he is not a therapy chill Lab, but a large GSD, I have to know he will understand a correction is coming if he gets out of line! A perfect dog, specially at 9 months like mine, can still get out of line for another year or 2.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had never used a prong until Shadow. Oddly on the working dogs it wasn't something I felt I needed. Shadow is the softest GSD I have ever met, but she was the one who needed a prong. Also oddly, I seem to fall into the small percentage of pet owners who used a training tool to train and then took it off and put it away.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Hence why I use a ball for his reward ex: dog sitting in front of helper fixated on him as he should be I say ‘Fus’ move out to the R dog gets ball for his reward. Super to have a ball crazy dog who will take the ball during protection some need to be trained to take the ball as a reward during protection


He was referring more to off the field life and muting drive, but the same happens on the field. You can see some dogs go from beasts in protection to really not into it when they start having to out.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> He was referring more to off the field life and muting drive, but the same happens on the field. You can see some dogs go from beasts in protection to really not into it when they start having to out.
> [/QUOTE
> Or the dog doesn’t want to out but just wants to fight. Out the sleeve your reward is the sleeve which they want more add in a fus after the out fus away the sec reward is the ball. Drop the ball fus again send back to the helper reward is the sleeve


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

In the OP’s case this still can apply. When training in a field just my dog and I I throw the ball make him fus away sec reward another ball.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I got to post #20 and turned lazy. Try Sheila Booth _Purely Positive: companion to competition_ She's taken sheps to 3 & I think to Germany using positive (no prong, no choke, no shock). So it can be done. I try but I cheat and use some corrections.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Get in touch with Shade Whitsel. She's titled several dogs to SCH3 with no corrections


 I have before, but again just read much of her website. Nowhere did I see her say "no corrections", just "...not using correction based tools."

Big difference! Does she say anywhere that you can point me to that says she uses no corrections? Because from my perspective, that just makes communication with your dog less honest or clear, not easier or better by any means.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

In my opinion you need to adjust your training to what you have and what you are doing. Flexibility is the key on becoming a good trainer. They are so different. All of my pet dogs (and I had quite a lot )growing up as a kid never needed corrections and I was a kid who trained them and always off leash in uncontrolled settings. Depending on the pup- a pup with more prey and hunt drive in adolescent years was most challenging. Max even though extremely trainable having a higher prey drive and strong hunt drive -living in the middle of the woods with many opportunities to discover the hunt was where I learned much and where balance training was much treasured when used correctly - those corrections with tools needed eventually became only verbal reminders all the while leaving that strong spirit (that is what I love) stay intact.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

How will the dog understand and even know what a verbal correction is? A lot of people yell and make themselves imposing to the dog which, in my opinion is by far more damaging to a relationship than using a small 2.25 prong collar.
Because the dog does not understand what a verbal correction is unless there is meaning attached to it. There are two ways to attach meaning.
1. Through making the dog feel uncomfortable.
2. Through conditioning a Negative Marker

Either one of these forms is considered punishment!

That being said, using training tools does not have to be painful for the dog.
Another big one, which a lot of people misunderstand is that in order to be positive, you dont have to be permissive.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> In Holland, I believe e collars, prongs and chokes are banned now. So it will be interesting to see the results from there.


That doesn't mean they aren't used but they are cracking down on KNPV and they have to be more careful.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Haha! They will just use them in hiding. 😂


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