# (Sire)American Shepherd?



## Anita11811

Hi Everyone, I purchased my dog from a breeder in up north michigan and im curious what everyone thinks my dogs father is. . Well he is a GSD but is he american? He doesnt seem to relate to any other pics of american alsatian dogs so im just stuck. I hope someone can help. Here is a pic. 
I also want to know about the female. The breeder told me she was Czech and German. Im basically asking peoples opinions on these dogs.


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## Jax08

Maybe an American Show line? Do you have a pedigree? AKC papers?


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## Anita11811

Jax08 said:


> Maybe an American Show line? Do you have a pedigree? AKC papers?


 

Yea, I have both. What do you think about the female?


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## Catu

...


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## Anita11811

Catu said:


> Do you have the pedigrees?


 
Yea, I do but when my trainer checked the pedigree she said she seen that both dog were american -__- but i am doubting that because the female looks Czech to me


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## TrickyShepherd

...Hard to tell by the pictures posted... Female's face/head looks ASL. She has a face like Zira.... looks long/slender and pointy. From that angle... I can't really see any German/Czech. But, then again, I'm not an expert or experienced with this... just some things I noticed.


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## Shaina

(if you post the pedigrees people can answer it for you)


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## Jax08

Anita11811 said:


> Yea, I have both. What do you think about the female?


I think she's very pretty. If you can post the pedigrees, many people here can read it and tell you what you have. If you have AKC papers then he's not an American Alsation. The sire was probably American Show Lines.


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## carmspack

Go back to the breeder and get a pedigree - names - . To my eye he looks like an "american" bred , faded pigment , male - saw dogs like this that came out of Reno of Lakeside progeny .


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## carmspack

female looks like american bred lines also. narrow face like that on Covy Tucker Hill dogs . give a pedigree .


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## Anita11811

Sire- Mark and Kari's Maximillion
DN02825905(10-07)


Dam- BRIGITTA VON KIEL
DN14544408(10-07)


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## Emoore

Brigitta Von Kiel - German Shepherd Dog

Mark and Kari's Maximillion - German Shepherd Dog

What you have there is two American Pet lines dogs.


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## Anita11811

anita11811 said:


> sire- mark and kari's maximillion
> dn02825905(10-07)
> 
> 
> dam- brigitta von kiel
> dn14544408(10-07)


sire parents

rehmans mark
dl71704801

kari von kasimo
dl81221701


dams parents

kain von kiel
dl80203303

hollie cain whoopinheimer
dl90653801


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> Brigitta Von Kiel - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Mark and Kari's Maximillion - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> What you have there is two American Pet lines dogs.


 
how did you find that on that website?


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## Lucy Dog

American lines


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> how did you find that on that website?


It's a public, searchable pedigree database.


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> It's a public, searchable pedigree database.


 

Right (i hope i dont come off as snobby or with attitude) But what differs from their pedigree and a german dogs pedigree


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> Right (i hope i dont come off as snobby or with attitude) But what differs from their pedigree and a german dogs pedigree


How many generations of ancestors have been in this country, by breeders not following German standards.


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## carmspack

pedigree data base shows
Brigitta is Kain x Hollie

pedigree data base shows Maximillion is a Brigitta son .

Soooo that means that what we have here is son to mother breeding -- I am tired so this could be wrong - feel free to correct -- apparently this combination was done previously Browning's Justice For All - German Shepherd Dog

no czech


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> How many generations of ancestors have been in this country, by breeders not following German standards.


 
Ohh, but how does that work that some of his ancestors arent even listed? Is that just a BYB move?


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## carmspack

Anita , with your registration numbers you can ask the AKC or any certified pedigree service to provide you with any number of generations of names .


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## Anita11811

carmspack said:


> pedigree data base shows
> Brigitta is Kain x Hollie
> 
> pedigree data base shows Maximillion is a Brigitta son .
> 
> Soooo that means that what we have here is son to mother breeding -- I am tired so this could be wrong - feel free to correct -- apparently this combination was done previously Browning's Justice For All - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> no czech


 

Oh my gosh i am so irritated! So does that mean if i was to breed my dog his pups would come out with problems? Because my dog is in schutzhund and after he recieves his titles i was hoping on breeding him. . 
Also .. is it easy to switch names in the AKC pedigree print out? because that link you gave me, is not what the breeder printed out.


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## Lucy Dog

Anita11811 said:


> Sire- Mark and Kari's Maximillion
> DN02825905(10-07)
> 
> 
> Dam- BRIGITTA VON KIEL
> DN14544408(10-07)


Wait... they bred these two dogs together?

Anyone notice anything a little off here...

Line-breeding for the progeny of Mark and Kari's Maximillion and Brigitta Von Kiel - German Shepherd Dog

EDIT: Nevermind... carmen's too fast for me.


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## onyx'girl

Is this the breeder? German Shepherd puppies for sale Mi.


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## Liesje

Anita11811 said:


> Also .. is it easy to switch names in the AKC pedigree print out? because that link you gave me, is not what the breeder printed out.


Anyone can put anything in the pedigree database. But I wouldn't trust a print out either. You can order an official 4-generation pedigree from the AKC if you want to know exactly what pedigree they have on file.

If you're already planning to breed the dog, I would do more research into the pedigree. I wouldn't consider breeding a dog without knowing the pedigree pretty extensively.


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## Anita11811

Lucy Dog said:


> Wait... they bred these two dogs together?
> 
> Anyone notice anything a little off here...
> 
> Line-breeding for the progeny of Mark and Kari's Maximillion and Brigitta Von Kiel - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind... carmen's too fast for me.


 
Um yes i deff. see A LOT wrong with this i am so pissed i dont know if there is anything i can do as of this point. On my pedigree it says something way different then the pedigree online which means that the breeder changed things


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> Oh my gosh i am so irritated! So does that mean if i was to breed my dog his pups would come out with problems? Because my dog is in schutzhund and after he recieves his titles i was hoping on breeding him. .
> Also .. is it easy to switch names in the AKC pedigree print out? because that link you gave me, is not what the breeder printed out.


Call AKC and get a verified pedigree. You can easily verify who is the father and grandfather if their DNA is on file at AKC. Pedigreedatabase could be wrong, or your breeder's printout could be wrong. Only way to know for sure is DNA.


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## Anita11811

onyx'girl said:


> Is this the breeder? German Shepherd puppies for sale Mi.


 

No my dog is 1 now and we found him on Puppyfind.com


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## Liesje

What is your dog's AKC registration number?

If the dog was purchased from a web site the "breeder" could have printed off anything...


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## Lucy Dog

Anita11811 said:


> Um yes i deff. see A LOT wrong with this i am so pissed i dont know if there is anything i can do as of this point. On my pedigree it says something way different then the pedigree online which means that the breeder changed things


Could you possibly scan and post the pedigree you have?


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> Call AKC and get a verified pedigree. You can easily verify who is the father and grandfather if their DNA is on file at AKC. Pedigreedatabase could be wrong, or your breeder's printout could be wrong. Only way to know for sure is DNA.


 
Well after i got my pup the breeder told me to call the AKC and get a Certified pedigree and i did. The tan paper with the blue trin and the pretty gold imprinted stamp? Well it doesnt say that The mother of my dog is the mother of my dogs father too.


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## Liesje

Anita11811 said:


> Well after i got my pup the breeder told me to call the AKC and get a Certified pedigree and i did. The tan paper with the blue trin and the pretty gold imprinted stamp? Well it doesnt say that The mother of my dog is the mother of my dogs father too.


OK then this is the correct pedigree. You can add your dog (and the other dogs in the pedigree) onto the pedigree database if you want.


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## Anita11811

Liesje said:


> What is your dog's AKC registration number?
> 
> If the dog was purchased from a web site the "breeder" could have printed off anything...


 
I have a certified pedigree from the AKC that i had to order but his number is DN29799309


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> Well after i got my pup the breeder told me to call the AKC and get a Certified pedigree and i did. The tan paper with the blue trin and the pretty gold imprinted stamp? Well it doesnt say that The mother of my dog is the mother of my dogs father too.


OK then Pedigreedatabase is wrong. You can fix it yourself if you want. Or you can scan the pedigree you have and one of us can fix it.


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## Anita11811

Liesje said:


> OK then this is the correct pedigree. You can add your dog (and the other dogs in the pedigree) onto the pedigree database if you want.


dont want to sound slow but how do i do that? So does that mean that he ISNT inbred or that the online one is correct?


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## Lucy Dog

Anita11811 said:


> dont want to sound slow but how do i do that? So does that mean that he ISNT inbred or that the online one is correct?


The AKC one is correct. The one on pedigree database is incorrect. Scan the AKC pedigree and post it here and someone can change it for you (on pedigree database) if you don't know how to.


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> dont want to sound slow but how do i do that? So does that mean that he ISNT inbred or that the online one is correct?


Pedgreedatabase is a Wiki, anyone can edit or make changes. Whoever entered those pedigrees probably just made a mistake. Since you have an AKC certified pedigree, you (or one of us) can fix it in the database. You have to be a member but it's free to sign up.


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## DunRingill

According to the AKC web site, Max was born in 2003 and Brigitta in 2006.


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## Anita11811

DunRingill said:


> According to the AKC web site, Max was born in 2003 and Brigitta in 2006.


 
PHEW. . . wow let me breath haha ... Thankyou


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## Anita11811

Alright i am attempting to scan it now.

BTW: Thank you SO much to everyone who posted anything. Everyone helped.


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## Anita11811

Okay scanning isnt working can i just write out all the generations?


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## NancyJ

The granfather on PDB (Brigitta's father) was ofa fair not excellent as entered in the pedigree database, but you can see the names of that one's parents and it looks like a few generations on THAT dog of OFA testing.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> Okay scanning isnt working can i just write out all the generations?


Sure


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## DunRingill

Anita did you get the pedigree thru the AKC web site? If so, is it still there? That way you could just copy the names and not have to type them in.


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## Anita11811

Okay.. Here it goes.

well everyone has the parents and grand parents so here is the rest.

Mother of Rehmans Mark
Madame lady frost
DL56805906 
FATHER
SIR TRAMP FROST
DL42917302



MOTHER OF KARI VON KASIMO
MALONES ROSE OF SHARON
DL52262309

FATHER
REX THE GREAT FUHRER II
DL37709803







MOTHER OF KAIN VON KIEL
SCHATZIE ZVINE FRAVLINE
DL64701602

FATHER
ZIEK VON KIEL
DL70622103



MOTHER OF HOLLIE CAIN WHOOPINHEIMER
BONNIE VON STONEHILL
DL78868003

FATHER
CHARLIE VON STONEHILL II
DL80174407


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## Anita11811

DunRingill said:


> Anita did you get the pedigree thru the AKC web site? If so, is it still there? That way you could just copy the names and not have to type them in.


 
UM, i had to order it but its okay i already wrote it


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## Emoore

OK i'll go see if I can get this in the database


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> pedigree data base shows
> Brigitta is Kain x Hollie
> 
> pedigree data base shows Maximillion is a Brigitta son .
> 
> Soooo that means that what we have here is son to mother breeding -- I am tired so this could be wrong - feel free to correct -- apparently this combination was done previously Browning's Justice For All - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> no czech


Makes me want to do this: :headbang::headbang::headbang:


:help:


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## Emoore

I'm sorry, can I get your dog's name, age, and gender?


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## Anita11811

Mrs.K said:


> Makes me want to do this: :headbang::headbang::headbang:
> 
> 
> :help:


 
Lol made me want to do that too but we came across what happend. . Someone switched it on the online search. Mother and Son DID NOT mate.!


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> I'm sorry, can I get your dog's name, age, and gender?


 
Sure.

MAXIMO XIII
MALE
BIRTHDATE: 01-18-11
13 MONTHS OLD


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## Emoore

Here you go, let me know if it looks right:
Maximo Xiii - German Shepherd Dog

You can see your dog has a brother in the database already, plus a niece and nephew. If you have a picture you want me to add to his profile I can.


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> Here you go, let me know if it looks right:
> Maximo Xiii - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> You can see your dog has a brother in the database already, plus a niece and nephew. If you have a picture you want me to add to his profile I can.


 
You are truely amazing. . Everything looks right And sure i will attach a pic.


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## Shaina

Wow, pretty dog!


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## Emoore

You're welcome. I added the photo but it can take up to 24 hours for pictures to show up in the database. Did you see his brother under "siblings"?


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## Anita11811

Shaina said:


> Wow, pretty dog!


 
Thank You. Thats not the best pic of him but the most Professional haha


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> You're welcome. I added the photo but it can take up to 24 hours for pictures to show up in the database. Did you see his brother under "siblings"?


 
thank you so much again. and yea i did but that was from the first litter. My dog was the second litter. Because i dont think people breed 1 year old dogs haha. But then again you have those BYB.!


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## Andaka

Off topic, but how is he doing in Schutzhund? I love to hear about American dogs participating in the sport.


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## Mrs.K

Anita11811 said:


> Lol made me want to do that too but we came across what happend. . Someone switched it on the online search. Mother and Son DID NOT mate.!


Yeah, you can't trust Pedigree Database.


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## Anita11811

Andaka said:


> Off topic, but how is he doing in Schutzhund? I love to hear about American dogs participating in the sport.


 
You know what We have an amazing trainer that knows just what to do. we got him from a farm which his genetics are herding so we are trying to hide those genetics a little bit but he WANTS to learn and LOVEs it too. the trainer just brought out the blinds and he went CRAZY. She calls him a turkey because he takes the bite material and drops it and keeps barking. He has a HUGE prey drive but if i compare his prey drive from when i started to now there is a huge difference. He has alot of strength and he is really puting forth an effort to get the biting right. I am hoping to atleast get him his SchH1 and if i could take him higher i will. He isnt like your typical AMERICAN line. he is far from lazy, small, or "dumb. He is a big dog with a huge head and golden colors, he will get up from a deep sleep when he sees a ball and would run till his legs fall off. He isnt stubborn but sometimes he thinks he needs to get the last word in. When i found out he was an american i was shocked because his charachteristics dont match.


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## Andaka

My American Show Lines are not lazy, dumb, or slow.


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> . He isnt like your typical AMERICAN line. he is far from lazy, small, or "dumb. He is a big dog with a huge head and golden colors, he will get up from a deep sleep when he sees a ball and would run till his legs fall off. . .. When i found out he was an american i was shocked because his charachteristics dont match.


Wow. . . . . 
I hope you didn't mean that to be as insulting as it sounded.


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## martemchik

I'm just wondering why you're so set on breeding this dog, you have such set idea's about the different GSD lines, and outright dismiss dogs that come from the same lines your dog comes from. What about him makes you think he'll be a great stud dog?


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## PaddyD

Originally Posted by Anita11811 
. He isnt like your typical AMERICAN line. he is far from lazy, small, or "dumb. He is a big dog with a huge head and golden colors, he will get up from a deep sleep when he sees a ball and would run till his legs fall off. . .. When i found out he was an american i was shocked because his charachteristics dont match.


Emoore said:


> Wow. . . . .
> I hope you didn't mean that to be as insulting as it sounded.


Well I have to admit: My ASL is lazy, small and not the brightest GSD on the planet. But she is bigger, smarter and more energetic than the GSL male we see at the park.


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## Castlemaid

Well, if he is from American show/pet lines, and has the drive and temperament for Schutzhund, and goes on to earn a title, I say the line needs more dogs like this!


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## martemchik

Actually this dog is a mix of lines. Just going off of names, there is definitely German lines in there. Only one of the GRANDPARENTS is OFA'd in the pedigree database and even less of the great grandparents are. Just because a dog can do Schutzhund doesn't mean it should be bred.


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## Castlemaid

martemchik said:


> Actually this dog is a mix of lines. Just going off of names, there is definitely German lines in there. Only one of the GRANDPARENTS is OFA'd in the pedigree database and even less of the great grandparents are. Just because a dog can do Schutzhund doesn't mean it should be bred.


I totally agree, not saying that the owner SHOULD breed THIS dog, but saying that I would love to see the genetics of more American lines that have the drive and temperament for Schutzhund preserved and passed on.


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## Anita11811

Okay to everyone that got offended.. why would i try to offend a line of GSD that i own myself? That doesnt sound right to me... I was just stating what i heard about the line. And the reason i want to breed him so bad is because of his potential. I will not breed him without any titles just because i "Think he can bite" i want his potential to be passed on. I want those people who call our american lines DUMB SMALL and LAZY to see what potential a american line has. and to the person who said he is a mix of things.. how far back is the german? im curious because i dont seem to understand how to figure out how far back the german is.


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## trudy

Anita, I also have AM show lines and have actually argued with GSL breeders that that is what they are, they are NOT typical, so many people see teh most winning or pictured adn think well that is what they all are, I always suggest there are great examples out there, in all lines, don't listen to the "experts" that are no more expert than anyone...Good is everywhere, and I always encourage people to look at my facebook pics since I post tons, and I love my dogs so tons of pics, Trudy CAlvert, in Ontario, Ca


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## martemchik

Anita11811 said:


> Okay to everyone that got offended.. why would i try to offend a line of GSD that i own myself? That doesnt sound right to me... I was just stating what i heard about the line. And the reason i want to breed him so bad is because of his potential. I will not breed him without any titles just because i "Think he can bite" i want his potential to be passed on. I want those people who call our american lines DUMB SMALL and LAZY to see what potential a american line has. and to the person who said he is a mix of things.. how far back is the german? im curious because i dont seem to understand how to figure out how far back the german is.


Just by names alone...anytime you see vom and von in the pedigree it tends to be a German line. American dog's have a different naming system (as you can tell by the sire of your dog) and although sometimes working line breeders in America call their dogs with that standard, it's pretty rare from what I've seen. So, I'm not saying that the dogs are actually German, just that your dog seems to have German lines.


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> Just by names alone...anytime you see vom and von in the pedigree it tends to be a German line. American dog's have a different naming system (as you can tell by the sire of your dog) and although sometimes working line breeders in America call their dogs with that standard, it's pretty rare from what I've seen. So, I'm not saying that the dogs are actually German, just that your dog seems to have German lines.


 
Oh okay . I mean the female looks pretty german to me. Although the male looks like a american but her name and the fourth generation have these german names and the females whole generation have von names


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## Anita11811

trudy said:


> Anita, I also have AM show lines and have actually argued with GSL breeders that that is what they are, they are NOT typical, so many people see teh most winning or pictured adn think well that is what they all are, I always suggest there are great examples out there, in all lines, don't listen to the "experts" that are no more expert than anyone...Good is everywhere, and I always encourage people to look at my facebook pics since I post tons, and I love my dogs so tons of pics, Trudy CAlvert, in Ontario, Ca


 
Can i add you? And are all of your dogs American?


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## martemchik

Anita11811 said:


> Oh okay . I mean the female looks pretty german to me. Although the male looks like a american but her name and the fourth generation have these german names and the females whole generation have von names


It just looks like a pet line pedigree to me...there's nothing spectacular and you ended up with a boy that has the drive and looks more American. The successful working lines are all named by the German standard, and the successful (in show rings) American lines are generally named by the American standard. It's great that he turned out the way he did, but you have no idea what kind of genetics are behind him and what he might produce.


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> It just looks like a pet line pedigree to me...there's nothing spectacular and you ended up with a boy that has the drive and looks more American. The successful working lines are all named by the German standard, and the successful (in show rings) American lines are generally named by the American standard. It's great that he turned out the way he did, but you have no idea what kind of genetics are behind him and what he might produce.


 
what do you mean NAMED BY ??? and what are these standards?


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## sabledog

Anita11811 said:


> You know what We have an amazing trainer that knows just what to do. we got him from a farm which his genetics are herding so we are trying to hide those genetics a little bit but he WANTS to learn and LOVEs it too. the trainer just brought out the blinds and he went CRAZY. She calls him a turkey because he takes the bite material and drops it and keeps barking. He has a HUGE prey drive but if i compare his prey drive from when i started to now there is a huge difference. He has alot of strength and he is really puting forth an effort to get the biting right. I am hoping to atleast get him his SchH1 and if i could take him higher i will. He isnt like your typical AMERICAN line. he is far from lazy, small, or "dumb. He is a big dog with a huge head and golden colors, he will get up from a deep sleep when he sees a ball and would run till his legs fall off. He isnt stubborn but sometimes he thinks he needs to get the last word in. When i found out he was an american i was shocked because his charachteristics dont match.


What trainer and/or club are you working with? 

Also, I would not breed a dog that can only title to a SchH 1. Just my opinion.


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## Anita11811

sabledog said:


> What trainer and/or club are you working with?
> 
> Also, I would not breed a dog that can only title to a SchH 1. Just my opinion.


 
Why? and I just want him to have titles i need to see how far he will go. i cant aim all the way to a 3 if he hasnt done a 1 we have to work our way up.


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## crackem

why would you hide genetics for herding? they are perfect for schutzhund


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## Anita11811

crackem said:


> why would you hide genetics for herding? they are perfect for schutzhund


 
Noooo, we arent hiding his herding sorry i didnt mean to write that. We are trying to hide his prey drive and build up his bite drive. He used to only want to bite what was on the stink that moved fast.. But his problem now is that he doesnt hold the bite toy he bites and pull if you pull, if you dont pull he jumps on you with it in his mouth but when u let him have it he drops it... and i dont know what to do.


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## martemchik

Yeah...prey drive is not herding genetics...its prey drive. It's actually the opposite of herding genetics. And german standards are xxx vom kennel name. American are Kennel names' such and such and such.

Here's the issue with studding your dog. There are hundreds of others that are just as good or better, and have a much nicer pedigree. Why not just try to get Sch1 or 3 and have fun with it? Why does the goal have to be to have him bred? You don't think I believe my dog is better than yours? But I wouldn't stud him because of that.

There are clearly a mix of lines in your boy, so I'm not sure who would even want to breed with him. The American show people wouldn't touch him because he wouldn't have any conformation titles on him, and the working people would like to see more hip scores and have their own biases on what lines they work with.

I'm just giving you warnings, to me it seems like you don't know enough about YOUR dog and the breed lines as a whole to breed/stud. And this isn't a knock on you, I don't know that stuff either, but I think I know a little more than you and I wouldn't stud my dog.


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## sabledog

Anita11811 said:


> Why? and I just want him to have titles i need to see how far he will go. i cant aim all the way to a 3 if he hasnt done a 1 we have to work our way up.


But you should be able to determine whether or not he will pass a SchH 3 with good scores at a regional or national level trial.

There are a million poorly bred GSDs out there. My standards are high because of it. Tons of dogs can pass a SchH 1, and even a SchH 3. But that doesn't mean they should be bred.


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> Yeah...prey drive is not herding genetics...its prey drive. It's actually the opposite of herding genetics. And german standards are xxx vom kennel name. American are Kennel names' such and such and such.
> 
> Here's the issue with studding your dog. There are hundreds of others that are just as good or better, and have a much nicer pedigree. Why not just try to get Sch1 or 3 and have fun with it? Why does the goal have to be to have him bred? You don't think I believe my dog is better than yours? But I wouldn't stud him because of that.
> 
> There are clearly a mix of lines in your boy, so I'm not sure who would even want to breed with him. The American show people wouldn't touch him because he wouldn't have any conformation titles on him, and the working people would like to see more hip scores and have their own biases on what lines they work with.
> 
> I'm just giving you warnings, to me it seems like you don't know enough about YOUR dog and the breed lines as a whole to breed/stud. And this isn't a knock on you, I don't knowp that stuff either, but I think I know a little more than you and I wouldn't stud my dog.


I already explained why I want him bred. I want his potential to be spread. Yea your dog OS probably better then mine and so are most of the peoples on here. But some people don't like breeding or don't want there dogs bred but that doesn't mean that everyone won't breed their dog ... I have about three people with females who want to breed their female to mine... Will I breed him to them ..? No because they don't seem to be responsible they want to breed by looks not by background.. and that's not what I'm looking for.. and if I don't find a female then hey he won't be bred I don't understand why people make such a big deal ...


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## trudy

Anita please do add me, I love sharing stuff and hearing about others dogs..I'll look for an Anita with a friend request


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## Emoore

The problem with a dog like this is that phenotype (what you see) does not always reflect the full genotype (the genetic makeup of the dog). Because every animal has 2 sets of genes for every single trait you can think of, they have one gene that is expressed and one that is not, or they might express a blend. Therefore, what they pass onto their offspring is not necessarily what you see in the dog. That's why it's important to know the pedigree behind the dog before breeding, not just the dog itself. That's why it's important to have generations of hip scores, not just hip scores on the dog itself, and know about the temperament and health of the parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents, not just the dog itself. How many of us know someone who doesn't much resemble their parents, but looks/acts a lot like a grandparent, aunt or uncle? Genetically, what you see in the dog is not always what you get in the offspring.


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## Chance&Reno

Emoore said:


> The problem with a dog like this is that phenotype (what you see) does not always reflect the full genotype (the genetic makeup of the dog). Because every animal has 2 sets of genes for every single trait you can think of, they have one gene that is expressed and one that is not, or they might express a blend. Therefore, what they pass onto their offspring is not necessarily what you see in the dog. That's why it's important to know the pedigree behind the dog before breeding, not just the dog itself. That's why it's important to have generations of hip scores, not just hip scores on the dog itself, and know about the temperament and health of the parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents, not just the dog itself. How many of us know someone who doesn't much resemble their parents, but looks/acts a lot like a grandparent, aunt or uncle? Genetically, what you see in the dog is not always what you get in the offspring.


This has to be the best, single post on breeding...Ever.


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## sabledog

I'm actually really interested in seeing how your dog does in schutzhund. Do you have any videos of him?


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## martemchik

I don't understand what you mean by potential. Every dog has potential. With the right trainer every dog can be Sch3, so I'm really confused as to why you are so stuck on that word.


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## Anita11811

sabledog said:


> I'm actually really interested in seeing how your dog does in schutzhund. Do you have any videos of him?


Haha are you doubting my dog? Sorry I do not have any videos of him


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## sabledog

Anita11811 said:


> Haha are you doubting my dog? Sorry I do not have any videos of him


No. But as stated earlier, it's unusual for a showline dog, especially from American lines, to really succeed in the sport. It would be a huge accomplishment on you and your helper for him to do well. I'd like to see an ASL working. I never have before.


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## DianaM

Remember that it is not so much the title, but what you learn about the dog during titling. You may find your dog balks when not on his home field. This shows the dog has mental weaknesses that should not be bred. Or your dog will kick butt no matter the field, night or day, rain or shine. You could learn that training him was extremely difficult so maybe you should not be adding more tough-to-train dogs. He could appear to be completely solid and sound except show weakness when on the sleeve. 

Enough of that. Let's see some photos of your dog working!


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## martemchik

I'm not bashing the dog, but this is not a pure ASL. The problem with mixing lines is that as much as you want to help the line, you're actually hurting it. I belong to a club full of ASL. We train for AKC events and don't do any Schutzhund training. Do I think my dog is better than theirs? Absolutely...he has more drive, his obedience is much better, he just looks like he wants to do things rather than just does them. But many of the dogs are also in the show ring, or have been bred from AKC conformation champions, those people do not ever want to mix their lines to get more drive out of them. Why? Because there are no buyers for those dogs.

There are buyers that want drive, that want a dog that looks like it can work, a dog that comes from Sch3 lines. Then there are buyers for the conformation ring, the ones that know their dog has a chance of winning in conformation. There are no buyers for a mix of these dogs...they won't be as good as all working lines and they won't conform for the people that want to show them. I know most of us believe the breed should still be tested on the field, but its a different world now, and the people looking at working dogs wouldn't give this pedigree a second breath.


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## Anita11811

This is his Drive this is what he does when you say PESSOFF (protect/guard) . . . i had his bite material toy that i practice with....


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## Lucy Dog

Anita11811 said:


> Haha are you doubting my dog? Sorry I do not have any videos of him





sabledog said:


> No. But as stated earlier, it's unusual for a showline dog, especially from American lines, to really succeed in the sport. It would be a huge accomplishment on you and your helper for him to do well. I'd like to see an ASL working. I never have before.


Same here. I don't think anyone's doubting you. It's just rare to see american dogs doing schutzhund. I think people are just generally interested in seeing. It actually sounds like a big accomplishment for both of you. You should be proud.


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## Konotashi

Anita11811 said:


> I already explained why I want him bred. I want his potential to be spread.....
> Yea your dog OS probably better then mine and so are most of the peoples on ....I have about three people with females who want to breed their female to mine....
> ....I don't understand why people make such a big deal ...


Although I know you said you won't breed your male to the females that were offered, I want to tell a little 'story.' 
I have a Pomeranian. Nowhere near standard (which says Poms should not exceed 7 lbs), and he weighs between 11-13 lbs. He is very lean. 
He's too tall, doesn't have the correct proportions, wrong type of coat, etc. etc. The list goes on. 
He does exceedingly well in flyball. He entered his first tournament, running on a full team, just 4 months after he was first introduced to the sport. He ripped his paw pads while racing. We put some New Skin on his paws, wrapped them, and he raced perfect the rest of the tournament. He has a lot of drive for this sport, even though he's new at it. He was willing to work through pain so he could 'play.' 
I have had people that wanted me to breed him to their bitch. (People off of the street, not flyball people). He already has 2 flyball titles. However, he does not have a pedigree. He does not adhere to standard. As awesome as I think he is, and as awesome as I think his potential puppies could be (especially for sport), he will never be bred. Period. 
I don't know his background. I don't know the dogs' temperaments, health, etc. that are in his background. He has an EXCELLENT temperament. Does that mean any puppies he could produce would? No. If he had a nervebag daddy and an aggressive momma, and happened to get the good end of the gene pool, that nerviness and aggressiveness could come out in puppies. If one of his grandparents had bad knees, or bad throats, his puppies could get that. I'm praying he doesn't. 
Your dog has a pet pedigree. Health testing appears to be nonexistent in your dogs' pedigree. Temperament testing? Probably not done. Titles? Don't see any of those. Those are reasons you shouldn't breed him right there. 
What if great-grandpa died of bloat? What if grandma ended up getting DM and was bred to a DM carrier? 
Too many 'what if' factors, when you don't know anything but the names of the dogs in the background of potential breeding dog's pedigree.


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## Konotashi

Anita11811 said:


> View attachment 16346
> 
> 
> View attachment 16347
> 
> 
> This is his Drive this is what he does when you say PESSOFF (protect/guard) . . . i had his bite material toy that i practice with....


Whoa, whoa, wait. Do you train him yourself at home, or with a club??


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> I'm not bashing the dog, but this is not a pure ASL. The problem with mixing lines is that as much as you want to help the line, you're actually hurting it. I belong to a club full of ASL. We train for AKC events and don't do any Schutzhund training. Do I think my dog is better than theirs? Absolutely...he has more drive, his obedience is much better, he just looks like he wants to do things rather than just does them. But many of the dogs are also in the show ring, or have been bred from AKC conformation champions, those people do not ever want to mix their lines to get more drive out of them. Why? Because there are no buyers for those dogs.
> 
> There are buyers that want drive, that want a dog that looks like it can work, a dog that comes from Sch3 lines. Then there are buyers for the conformation ring, the ones that know their dog has a chance of winning in conformation. There are no buyers for a mix of these dogs...they won't be as good as all working lines and they won't conform for the people that want to show them. I know most of us believe the breed should still be tested on the field, but its a different world now, and the people looking at working dogs wouldn't give this pedigree a second breath.


 
Alright so with that said what if i DONT breed him, i am planning on showing him with the ukc soon... and i KNOW i have a good chance of wining... But what if i DO breed him to a german dog. Would the puppies have a good drive? say my dog does Schh3 and so does the mother?


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## Emoore

Anita11811 said:


> But what if i DO breed him to a german dog. Would the puppies have a good drive? say my dog does Schh3 and so does the mother?


Did you get a chance my post about genotype and phenotype? It might have been bumped too far. Without being able to read the whole pedigree, knowing what the parents and grandparents are like, we just don't know. It's not as simple as just mom + dad, especially with a mix of lines.


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## Anita11811

Lucy Dog said:


> Same here. I don't think anyone's doubting you. It's just rare to see american dogs doing schutzhund. I think people are just generally interested in seeing. It actually sounds like a big accomplishment for both of you. You should be proud.


 
I am, VERY proud. i am very thankful that my trainer IS my trainer... and i want to show people that American lines CAN do the same as german.. It may take a littel longer but they can recieve the same accomplishments if not higher.


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## martemchik

Anita11811 said:


> Alright so with that said what if i DONT breed him, i am planning on showing him with the ukc soon... and i KNOW i have a good chance of wining... But what if i DO breed him to a german dog. Would the puppies have a good drive? say my dog does Schh3 and so does the mother?


Can't answer that, and no offence but UKC is like little league. If you can't answer the "would the puppies have good drive" question, then no the dog shouldn't be bred and no one ever will because no one knows the genetics behind your dog, its just a mix of lines. BTW...nice pictures, but I can make my dog do that by tying him to a pole and jumping in a pool (he hates it when I swim without him) post a few pictures of him doing bite work.

Also, thanks for being so cool throughout this thread, I've been downplaying your dog at every turn and you just listen and go on. It's quite nice to get a poster like you who clearly wants to learn.

Its great that you consider him ASL, but I don't. This dog would never win in the AKC ring. And you can blame it on the AKC and their judges all you want, but they're what makes the distinction between the lines.


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## Anita11811

Emoore said:


> Did you get a chance my post about genotype and phenotype? It might have been bumped too far. Without being able to read the whole pedigree, knowing what the parents and grandparents are like, we just don't know. It's not as simple as just mom + dad.


Yea i did read it soory for the no reply. And i deff. do understand just because my dog will win a title it doesnt mean that the pups will.


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## Konotashi

Anita11811 said:


> Yea i did read it soory for the no reply. And i deff. do understand just because my dog will win a title it doesnt mean that the pups will.


That wasn't necessarily the point. 
I took that post as - your dog could have genes for DM or hip displaysia or megaesophogus or a host of things that could make the puppies' lives short and painful. Or he could produce puppies that are fear aggressive nervebags with no drive. 
The dog in front of you is less than half the equation.


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> Can't answer that, and no offence but UKC is like little league. If you can't answer the "would the puppies have good drive" question, then no the dog shouldn't be bred and no one ever will because no one knows the genetics behind your dog, its just a mix of lines. BTW...nice pictures, but I can make my dog do that by tying him to a pole and jumping in a pool (he hates it when I swim without him) post a few pictures of him doing bite work.
> 
> Also, thanks for being so cool throughout this thread, I've been downplaying your dog at every turn and you just listen and go on. It's quite nice to get a poster like you who clearly wants to learn.


 
Haha yea thanks for all the downplaying. But i dont post a question on here to get angry at peoples opinions or thoughts on my dog.. I clearly asked because i didnt have a clue about something lol. But haha no my dog wont do all that unless i tell him pessOff. . . without that word he will either stay quiet or whimper. . . but usually its either me holding the leash or me holding the toy so i dont have a chance to take a pic of his bite work


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## Anita11811

Konotashi said:


> Whoa, whoa, wait. Do you train him yourself at home, or with a club??


 
I DO NOT train my dog myself I have a trainer but she gives me things to practice with him at home because i have school and cannot do training everyday


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## martemchik

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I personally would not purchase a dog sired by your boy. My first dog (current) is a mix of working lines. I didn't know much when I got him but I love him to death. My next one, will be from lines that I know and have researched. If I were to get a puppy from a pedigree like your dogs, it would have to be through a rescue and I'm not even as hardcore about working the dogs as most people. I just want a dog for AKC obedience, rally, agility, and whatever other fun stuff we can come up with.


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## Konotashi

I don't know much about SchH training, but I don't think it'd be a very good idea to train the protection portion at home, unless you had someone to act as a helper. Protection training probably wouldn't do much good if you're training him to attack the one he's supposed to be protecting. 
That's just my opinion - I have no experience with SchH or training for it.

I should also add, that I don't think many breeders do a breeding with the expectation of all the puppies growing up to title in conformation and/or sport. Even if you put the world's 2 best dogs together, you will get puppies that are suited for being pets and not so much the show ring or the SchH ring. 

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone with a nice bitch to breed him with. Personally, if I had a bitch with an excellent pedigree, titles, health checks, etc., I wouldn't consider breeding her to your male.


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## Anita11811

martemchik said:


> I guess what I'm trying to say is that I personally would not purchase a dog sired by your boy. My first dog (current) is a mix of working lines. I didn't know much when I got him but I love him to death. My next one, will be from lines that I know and have researched. If I were to get a puppy from a pedigree like your dogs, it would have to be through a rescue and I'm not even as hardcore about working the dogs as most people. I just want a dog for AKC obedience, rally, agility, and whatever other fun stuff we can come up with.


Totally understand. I mean i still have like a year and half to think about breeding or not and when i got my dog i was clueless too.. i see the word GSD puppy close by and im like OHH i want that one.. and a year later you find all this stuff that could have been avoided if i drove like 2 hours longer.


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## Anita11811

Konotashi said:


> I don't know much about SchH training, but I don't think it'd be a very good idea to train the protection portion at home, unless you had someone to act as a helper. Protection training probably wouldn't do much good if you're training him to attack the one he's supposed to be protecting.
> That's just my opinion - I have no experience with SchH or training for it.


 
Haha right totally agree with your last sentence.. he is totally fine biting a toy out of my hand .... because i know that when i hold the leaash and say pessoff he will protect me!


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## DianaM

Generally not a good idea to do bitework in your front yard for the whole neighborhood to watch..... 

And a VERY bad idea to agitate your own dog unless you're 100% sure what you're doing. During the session in the photos, can you say with complete certainty that he was working in prey or was he working in defense? Or neither?


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## msvette2u

Anita11811 said:


> Haha right totally agree with your last sentence.. he is totally fine biting a toy out of my hand ....* because i know that when i hold the leaash and say pessoff he will protect me!*


How do you know that?


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## GSD07

I think he was barking at the camera :lurking:


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## msvette2u

GSD07 said:


> I think he was barking at the camera :lurking:


Scary the dog is out there w/no fenced yard...on a long line...I see an accident waiting to happen


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## sabledog

Is your dog on a sleeve?


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## Anita11811

sabledog said:


> Is your dog on a sleeve?


 
No not yet. . . I mean were not that far. . i havent been in training for THAT long . . .


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## Jessiewessie99

There is A LOT more to breeding than just putting two dogs together. Read soem threads here on breeding, go read some books on breeding, and talk to actual responsible breeders. Breeding is NOT for everyone or every dog.

Your dog comes from an unknown background with a lot of unknowns in regards to health, temperament etc. You don't have to breed your dog! Its wonderful you are training him. But there is no reason to breed your dog. Just train him and enjoy him. You don't have to breed him.

If you are seriously interested in becoming a breeder later on in the future learn about GSDs, learn about the different lines, temperament, health, training, join a club.


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## PaddyD

Anita11811 said:


> View attachment 16346
> 
> 
> View attachment 16347
> 
> 
> This is his Drive this is what he does when you say PESSOFF (protect/guard) . . . i had his bite material toy that i practice with....


That is a pretty long line and it can go well into the street.
How smart is that?


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## sabledog

Anita11811 said:


> No not yet. . . I mean were not that far. . i havent been in training for THAT long . . .


I see. I ask for video because anyone can get mean looking photos of their dog barking. ****, my Corgi has enough prey drive for flirt pole work.

Who are you training with?


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## sabledog

You can PM me the name if you don't want to post publicly.


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## sabledog

Why does this question keep getting ignored?


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## Anita11811

sabledog said:


> Why does this question keep getting ignored?


 
The question was not getting ignored i just did not go on the computer till right now. . . . . . . And im just wondering what the trainers name would do for you if your in California and im in michigan??? what do you need to know her name for?


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## Anita11811

PaddyD said:


> That is a pretty long line and it can go well into the street.
> How smart is that?


 
Sorry you are INCORRECT.. even with the whole line out my dog cannt reach the street. . and the line was tied to about 7 feet loose. . . From that pole to the street is about 17-20 feet. . i dont know why you think i would put a long line on my dog so he can get hit by a car and he doesnt go in the street anyways. .


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## Castlemaid

Let's not harrass the OP.


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## sabledog

Sorry, didn't think I was harassing.

Dog training people generally know each other from all over. Especially if it's within the sport. I'd be interested to see if I've heard her name before.

Not a big deal. Just an honest question. No harassment involved.


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## Liesje

I was interested to as I live in Michigan and am always interested in checking out new trainers and clubs. Sometimes I find a gem of a trainer and wish I'd found them sooner!


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## msvette2u

Is Max missing a tooth on his upper front left? I can't tell?


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## therawlife1

This is a great post, i actually have a male pup that is off your dogs sire littermate sister..

I see that people are congratulating you on your work with him and others giving tough criticism.. Wouldnt say anyone's hating. Me personally, i say breed him if you want.. But buy a female of good quality, that will add in 50% of great traits.. So what if people arent feeling your **** at first.. Take the pups that has your desired look and keep, and spay/neuter others and place in pet homes. Then breed females off that to males of very good quality and so on and so on. And start getting all your **** ofa(other requirements for breed aswell). This will be a 10+ years time period of breeding and showing but progress is lengthy, it doesn't come over night. 
I've been breeding american bullies for around 10 years now and i started from the bottom and worked my way up to the top, one thing that i learned is it doesnt matter what you start out with, only what you end with!! Bad genes can be bred out, and you can say you made this all from your boy. Its better to look back and see what all you created from the hard work you put in rather than looking back and seeing all the hard work others put in that you only paid for.


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## therawlife1

Sounds like my boy is a scattered ped, his sire is iso of meerman..

Iso sire: Our max of duck creek..max sire: Elle's maximus skywalker..max dam: Salenchars jazzie girl

iso dam: Our addie of duck creek..addie sire: Niko ii losey.. Addie dam: Losey's tasha ii

can someone confirm this line for me? American?
It doesnt bother me that he has a ****ty ped, he's been a great boy for me..i want dogs for companionship..not bragging rights

thanks
bill


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## therawlife1

I love how the forum blocks out the curse words, that is tight!!!!


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## robk

therawlife1 said:


> This is a great post, i actually have a male pup that is off your dogs sire littermate sister..
> 
> I see that people are congratulating you on your work with him and others giving tough criticism.. Wouldnt say anyone's hating. Me personally, i say breed him if you want.. But buy a female of good quality, that will add in 50% of great traits.. So what if people arent feeling your **** at first.. Take the pups that has your desired look and keep, and spay/neuter others and place in pet homes. Then breed females off that to males of very good quality and so on and so on. And start getting all your **** ofa(other requirements for breed aswell). This will be a 10+ years time period of breeding and showing but progress is lengthy, it doesn't come over night.
> I've been breeding american bullies for around 10 years now and i started from the bottom and worked my way up to the top, one thing that i learned is *it doesnt matter what you start out with*, only what you end with!! *Bad genes can be bred out*, and you can say you made this all from your boy. Its better to look back and see what all you created from the hard work you put in rather than looking back and seeing *all the hard work others put in that you only paid for*.


I could not disagree with these statements more. I think you should start with the best foundation dogs that you can find.


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## therawlife1

thats just my opinion from my experience.. im not saying thats the best road to take.. i agree with you definitely wanna start with good blood if you havent even bought a GSD yet.. i was really relating to his situation of breeding his boy that he's been caring for all this time... what gives anybody on here the right to shoot his vision down, even if it aint the same as yours?..what im saying is if he wants to create from his dog then he has every right too.. im not saying just go out and buy any dog if you plan on becoming a breeder.. but if just bought a pup for a pup and later decided you want to breed him then you should be able too, and taake the procedure like i said before.. i've seen this work before so i kno what im talking about.. but everyone has their own opinion so thats cool if you disagree.. and if you like to look in your own yard and see dogs you didnt produce, your not a true breeder.. period. you just bought your way into the breed.. and if he does decide to do it it will be a process like i said.. 10 years plus..


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## Freestep

therawlife1 said:


> Bad genes can be bred out, and you can say you made this all from your boy. Its better to look back and see what all you created from the hard work you put in rather than looking back and seeing all the hard work others put in that you only paid for.


Maybe this is how people breed "American Bullies", but this is a GSD forum, and things are different with our breed.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> Maybe this is how people breed "American Bullies", but this is a GSD forum, and things are different with our breed.


American Bullies are not even a real breed as near as I can recall. Any "breed" that has to create it's own registry (because no others will accept it) is a mutt. 

"Scatterbred" is a nice way of saying "backyard bred" with any ol' male and female you can toss together to make a litter 

It's like calling a Golden Retriever- Lab mix a "hybrid", when it actuality it's a mutt...



> but if just bought a pup for a pup and later decided you want to breed him then you should be able too,


Yep, the land of the free, and all, this is why so many dogs are piling up in shelters and rescues. This is why shelters keep sending out "URGENT - going to be euthanized tomorrow!" notices.


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## Freestep

"American Bullies" are Pit Bull mixed with English Bulldog and some kind of Mastiff. "Scatterbred" refers to mixing dogs of different lines within the breed; you could say it is the opposite of "linebred". 

Some people insist that American Bullies are purebred Pit Bulls bred for a certain look, and while it may so say on paper, we know that papers are easily faked.


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## Catu

I remember some years ago someone else, an old pitbull breeder, came to the forum with similar ideas about breeding and weird concepts of how genes works that have nothing to do with real genetic. Then I had an "interesting" chat with a pitbull breeder recently.

No wonder why a breed that used to be a family dog is were it is in the world today


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## PatchonGSD

therawlife1 said:


> This is a great post, i actually have a male pup that is off your dogs sire littermate sister..
> 
> I see that people are congratulating you on your work with him and others giving tough criticism.. Wouldnt say anyone's hating.* Me personally, i say breed him if you want.. But buy a female of good quality, that will add in 50% of great traits.. So what if people arent feeling your **** at first.. Take the pups that has your desired look and keep, and spay/neuter others and place in pet homes. Then breed females off that to males of very good quality and so on and so on. And start getting all your **** ofa(other requirements for breed aswell). This will be a 10+ years time period of breeding and showing but progress is lengthy, it doesn't come over night. *
> I've been breeding american bullies for around 10 years now and i started from the bottom and worked my way up to the top, *one thing that i learned is it doesnt matter what you start out with, only what you end with!! Bad genes can be bred out, and you can say you made this all from your boy.* Its better to look back and see what all you created from the hard work you put in rather than looking back and seeing all the hard work others put in that you only paid for.


This is, by far, the *best* BYB advice on breeding that I have ever heard. _Please_ tell me you were just kidding.


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