# Bone shards in poop



## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

This just happened. I have Traveler with me at work today and he indicated by whining and dancing that he had to go out. He ran to our usual poo-poo location and he proceeded to unload a big pile of pudding poop. He then went a second time but it was mostly liquid.
A little history: According to Dr. Dodd's at Hemopet, he is sensitive to all proteins except beef and lamb. Due to the unavailability of enough digestible bones in beef, he gets fed raw on the weekends and Orijen Regional Red during the week. Last night I fed him raw ground and some beef neck bones which he didn't seem to have a problem with. Anyway, because of the texture of this recent poop, I was able to see there were some ~1" pieces of bone shards that weren't digested. 

I'd like to ask if this is normal for raw fed dogs? Some were pretty sharp but there was no visible blood in the poop.

To finish the story, I'll give you another visual- He's finished pooping and comes over to me for a rub. I'm squatting down loving on him whereas he proceeds to sit down on my leg. Unfortunately, he used my dress work pants as his toilet paper


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

edit:

Cream colored work slacks. Just tried and can't get them clean with bathroom supplies of paper towel and dispenser soap! Gotta love my boy


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Bone shards are normal in raw fed poop-- but be careful with the beef bones. I stick to lamb breast. Beef and pork bones scare me-- they are too hard and dense for my comfort. Others may disagree.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't feed beef neck bones for RMB. Pork and lamb maybe but not beef


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Oh, ok. Thank you both Sunflowers and Jax08. I guess I'll use the balance for bone broth. I still haven't found any good lamb bones for under $6.00/lb. This bone thing is the only thin keeping me from going 100% raw. I'm wondering if I can just buy the bone powder and give enough to make up the correct percentage. Seems wrong but maybe it's ok?

Oh, another thing I learned this weekend. I went to Fresh Market and asked the meat manager about leftovers. He said they sell all their leftovers to a cosmetic company. I don't know why I never previously considered where they are getting all this collagen from but when the guy said that it really took me by surprise.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Archer had little bone pieces in his poop for a while until I started adding kefir to help out his digestive system. I feed him pork spareribs and poultry for bone content. Lamb ribs are also soft and should be fine, although I haven't tried it with my dog.

For bone content, if he's allergic to pork and poultry, you can either use bone meal powder, but you will have to take into account the calcium and phosphorus levels. Or you can do ground eggshells, which seem to be more recommended for long-term use.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ground egg shells are not a complete bone replacement. It's calcium. None of the other minerals you find in bone, including phosphorus. So unless there is a kidney problem, this is not a good replacement for bone.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Ground egg shells are not a complete bone replacement. It's calcium. None of the other minerals you find in bone, including phosphorus. So unless there is a kidney problem, this is not a good replacement for bone.


Oh interesting. That's what I had been told when I was needing to prep some boneless meals for boarding, that I should use ground eggshells instead. I still used bone meal powder since that is what I had on hand. But is bone meal suitable for long-term use if it's balanced correctly?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've never used bone meal. I've had to use egg shells for my CRF dog. You'll need to look at the contents of bone meal and compare it to the nutritional content of whole bone.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you all for this information. Boy, looks like there may not be the quick fix I was looking for. If no one pipes in to answer SMA's question about bone meal as a complete substitute, I'll do the due diligence with the mfg. and see what I can find out. I can't find the lamb ribs locally that cost under $6/lb since they come with the breast meat attached. Traveler doesn't have high reaction numbers to pork but I thought those ribs looked pretty tough so I bypassed. Good to know I can use them. I do give him kefir pretty regularly and that was good info. 

Thanks all,

Lynn & Traveler


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Have you looked at ordering online? Raw Feeding Miami is right next door to you and they have a huge variety of proteins with plenty of bone-in options. Shipping would be very inexpensive, or you can do a pick-up if it would be cheaper in gas money. They have lamb breast bone-in for $3.20/lb, lamb necks for $2.60/lb, beef neck bones for $1.40/lb, and they send out specials each Sunday on their email list.

Have you been able to try any other proteins besides lamb and beef? Duck and rabbit are supposed to be allergen-friendly (and duck would make an excellent bone option).

I'm planning on making an order from them and Big Dan's Trucking for beef and green tripe in the next month or so, but I've heard nothing but excellent reviews for RFM. Might be worth a look to see if it's more cost-efficient than what you can get locally.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you for reminding me of RFM. Prices certainly are better than what I'm paying. Rabbit tested higher than turkey for sensitivity and both those were just about off the charts. I could hardly believe it since the only rabbit he ever had was Zukes little training bits. On her website, Dr. Dodds said she recommends retesting every 6 months or so as the allergens can change. That's not going to happen at $280 a pop. My plan was to go with the test recommendations and slowly introduce other proteins as time goes on. 

I wonder about the lamb neck bones since problems with the beef neck bones prompted me to initiate this thread. Am I to assume the lamb bones are softer by comparison?

Is Big Dan's up by you? 

Thanks,

Lynn & Traveler


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My dogs do not have an issue with lamb necks or pork necks. Just make sure they are not frozen when you feed them. The pork necks wore down Jax's teeth quickly.

Look at digestive enzymes and probiotics. Carmen mentioned a study a couple of years ago regarding their usage in 'curing' allergies. I just saw the actual study come out a few weeks ago.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Traveler's Mom said:


> I wonder about the lamb neck bones since problems with the beef neck bones prompted me to initiate this thread. Am I to assume the lamb bones are softer by comparison?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, a baby animal's bones will always be softer than an adult's.

Also, certain bones, such as weight-bearing bones, will be much harder.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Traveler's Mom said:


> Thank you for reminding me of RFM. Prices certainly are better than what I'm paying. Rabbit tested higher than turkey for sensitivity and both those were just about off the charts. I could hardly believe it since the only rabbit he ever had was Zukes little training bits. On her website, Dr. Dodds said she recommends retesting every 6 months or so as the allergens can change. That's not going to happen at $280 a pop. My plan was to go with the test recommendations and slowly introduce other proteins as time goes on.
> 
> I wonder about the lamb neck bones since problems with the beef neck bones prompted me to initiate this thread. Am I to assume the lamb bones are softer by comparison?
> 
> ...


Big Dan's Trucking is in Minnesota but their prices are all around, or under, $0.50/lb so even with shipping, the price still works out to be a little more than $1/lb, which is much better than the $2/lb I pay for beef heart now. Plus I want more actual beef instead of beef heart so I can feed as much red meat as possible.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Thanks SMA. I will look into them today. I checked out Raw Feed Miami. Boy, you were right on. Prices are better than reasonable and the lamb ribs could start to solve my problem. 

Along this same topic, can I regularly feed his raw dinner frozen or not thoroughly thawed? Traveler isn't a fast eater since he's never had a reason to feel anyone wanted to take a share of his food but he does eat completely thawed meat a lot faster as you would expect. I was just wondering if I could slow down this process.

Thanks,

Lynn & Traveler


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Jax08,

I reread your response to this thread and see you said NOT frozen. I missed that part. Can you tell me why? Can you clarify if this is just the neck bones we were talking about?

Thanks. I'm sorry I missed this originally.
L.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes -- "Look at digestive enzymes and probiotics. Carmen mentioned a study a couple of years ago regarding their usage in 'curing' allergies. I just saw the actual study come out a few weeks ago. "

I follow many studies and have an extensive library.

The study was well covered in the popular media , newspaper as the university involved had made major inroads into "curing" severe , life threatening peanut allergies.
The research necessitated human volunteers with anaphylactic peanut allergy to consume peanuts . Of course there was strict medical supervision . At first they were offered the most miniscule amounts or peanut protein . Prior to and immediately after they had to ingest digestive enzymes and probiotics . Remember that these folk could have serious problems just with the touch (absorption) of peanut's oil . 
Over time , the amounts of peanut protein increased . At the end of the study these people had a repaired digestive system that was no longer hyper sensitized , over reactive , to peanuts . The people were able to put their hand into a bowl and eat peanuts with no problem. The university was awarded further millions of dollars to continue research . I believe this was about 4 or 5 years ago. 

Other literature seems to support that incomplete digestion is a root cause for allergies and gut problems , including Crohn's , Irritable Bowel, food sensitivities .
There are indications that "mothers" with strong digestive systems and thriving beneficial gut flora pass this on by oral inoculation as the new born enters the world through the vagina . The probiotic culture would be structured around what the dam has been eating .

Which brings us to another point . There is a balance between the culture that thrives and the culture that is needed. This is not static , but ever changing and responsive in an organic manner. 

This is why when feeding one product over a long period of time it becomes difficult to change "formula" without going through a period of soft stool. The gut bacteria isn't prepared and needs to reset . The flora that was happily colonized is a living bio mass that needs to be fed and likes certain conditions . Change those conditions and you have die off , vacancies, inadequate or inappropriate cultures.

The wider the food base the wider the digestive enzyme base replenishment and the wider and more complex the probiotic beneficial bacteria.

This is one reason you are having difficulty with stool . 

Over the long haul , over generations you can have a wide population affected by the same inability to digest a food item -- because it just is not a part of the culture -- think MILK and Asian populations as an example, or cultures that don't include wheat as a starch same problems .

There are people on the forum that will select a probiotic --- but -- there is a symbiotic relationship between digestive enzymes which break down food into absorbable molecules, PRE biotics , necessary to feed the bacteria which form PRObiotics . One thing never considerate is the need for minerals which activate digestive enzymes, acting like the spark plugs to start the engine . Doesn't matter how much gas you have or how big the engine , no spark plug , you're not going far. Synergy . 
When all are present you have a synbiotic combination. 

Recently got a new book to add to library . Have had my nose buried in it . The Symbiont Factor [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Symbiont-Factor-Microbiome-Redefines-ebook/dp/B00LV6H1UY[/ame]

that and 50 other titles


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Wow Carmen, you provided some serious food for thought! I'm probably not alone in thinking linear rather than looking at the whole picture which you described so clearly.

As I mentioned previously, I have your Sunday Sundae and am working to find a carrier of sorts that Traveler will like enough so he'll eat it. I was successful twice when I mixed it in with some raw ground beef balls so I'm getting past that problem.

Thanks again, Carmen, for the health lesson. I look forward to reading more of your informative posts.


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## sterlingmaloryarcher (Aug 16, 2014)

Traveler's Mom said:


> Thanks SMA. I will look into them today. I checked out Raw Feed Miami. Boy, you were right on. Prices are better than reasonable and the lamb ribs could start to solve my problem.
> 
> Along this same topic, can I regularly feed his raw dinner frozen or not thoroughly thawed? Traveler isn't a fast eater since he's never had a reason to feel anyone wanted to take a share of his food but he does eat completely thawed meat a lot faster as you would expect. I was just wondering if I could slow down this process.
> 
> ...


I feed a lot of Archer's meals as semi-thawed. It's not an issue and slows down any potential gulping.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Thank you for this info. I was thinking along the same lines. I give him recreational marrow bones frozen but that's different than a meal.

Lynn & Traveler


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