# Torn on what to do...



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi - I am new to this forum but basically just need some feedback. Or maybe just someone to confirm what I'm thinking. Here's the deal:

We adopted our GSD about 8 months ago from a shelter in New Hampshire - he'd come from Kentucky. When we got him, he had an ear infection, giardia, an infection on his tail, etc. So one week in, vet bills were piling up. We'd been told he was 2, but it turns out he's 6+ years. We know this because his original owner came out of the woodwork and has stayed in touch with me just to keep tabs on him.

Since then, we've had to give him surgery on his tail and treat him for various other issues, inlcuding dog aggression. Most recently, we've tried treating him twice for scabies because he's become extremely itchy since he returned from training camp at the end of September. Ivermectin didn't work, so the vet recommended a dermatologist. $1,200 later and we still don't know what's causing the itching/red welts. 

Now, to top it off, we just found out he has elbow dysplasia in both front legs, along with arthritis (he had hip surgery at 3 years for hip dysplasia). 

Between his skin issues and surgery, he's had to wear the e-collar almost consistenly since we got him, and a muzzle at night.

We're about $8,000 in on this dog in 8 months, and I'm pretty sure the vet is going to tell us to do surgery on the elbows.

My question is, is it wrong of me to consider euthanasia? I've decided to stop all vet treatments and try treating him holistically to see if it works. My coworker wonders if all the stress from being transported to various shelters and all the vet appointments over the past few months have caused his sudden skin issues. But if this doesn't work, I'm at a loss. 

I don't think he likes being itchy all the time or having to limp, and we are definitely at our wit's end dealing with him...but at the same time, I don't know if I can look him in the eye while he's being put down and feel okay about it!


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

What is his diet like?


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

I know I could not but I am not you. You have to do what feels right. BUT.......have you tried changing his food? Have you used cosequin or deramaxx for the elbows? Adequin injections are also helpful for the elbows. I would almost go to another vet if possible. I would look at other options before putting him down, if you can.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I would def look at the food. Also, what kind of training camp was he at?


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

It doesn't sound as if you have explored all the possible alternatives to surgery or the possible treatments for his skin issues. Six years is not old. If he were 2 years, would you still be thinking about euthanasia?

Incidentally, $8000 for what you have described sounds very high to me - I would be looking around for another vet.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

That is a lot of money. I'd find a different vet. 

My dog had lymphosarcoma. I went one round of chemo with him and in 8 months spent $5000 on that treatment. I could have gone to more expensive chemo, but decided it was time to let him go. He stayed with me until he no longer had the desire to even get up and eat in the morning. 

I would not find fault with you for giving up. And you can't expect somebody else to take on this burden, but you could try a rescue. Though they usually accept dogs from shelters.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks for the input - we tried a hypoallergenic diet, but it didn't work and he got diarrhea and vomiting. Now we've changed his diet to Wellness brand (from Eukanuba GSD) mixed with ground beef - trying to stay away from the chemicals.

Training camp was for the dog aggression - we didn't like the idea of it, but since traditional training didn't work, the shelter offered to pay for it and swore by this woman.

I really don't blame the vet - this is the vet my family took our dogs to for years, and they have always been good. In fact, they didn't even charge us for all the x-rays they did yesterday and very rarely charge us for visits anymore since we go there so often. The costs with them are not crazy high - it's the amount of times we've gone there and all the drugs we've had to buy. And like I said, the dermatologist charged us $1200 for a two-hour visit and associated medications.

What are other options? We've tried allergy shots, termaril-p, prednisone, fish oil, medicated baths - and the vet did give him a shot in his elbow, which didn't help. He's been on Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM since we got him.

Yeah he's not 2 years old, but we've had him for a short while, his original owner doesn't want him back, and we can't afford to keep "experimenting" with him. Nobody is going to adopt a dog-aggressive dog with these issues, and I can't let him live out his life in a shelter - I would think euthanasia would be preferable to that.

I'm hoping that if we stop trying to treat him and stick with only natural supplements, that the itching will go away. I'm praying my coworker is right in that the skin problems stem from stress. As for his legs, who knows - guess I can see how he can manage with the dysplasia for now. I'd rather not do surgery.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Welcome to the forum! Sorry under difficult circumstances. 

Did you go to Tufts for that dermatologist appointment?

They thought demodex mange?

Could it be autoimmune? With the cost of the meds-what were the meds? That's almost what it would seem to be. 

Not sure how much elbow surgery costs, but also not sure on the effectiveness of it...that would be something to consider first. Then there are a lot of supplements and even stem cell that can be tried for possibly less money. 

Anyway, I will wait to hear if you went to Tuft's before I recommend...going to Tuft's if you didn't.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

how about stem cell therapy instead of surgery. I've heard very good things about it and it's not nearly as expensive as surgery. What is his prognosis for his elbows?

Have you tried a RAW diet? Venison? A RAW diet might help isolate any allergies even though it's odd that it only started after the traiing camp


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

How long ago did you change to the Wellness? It might
take 3 months or so for improvement, I think.


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## MajicForest (Aug 18, 2009)

I agree with valb, it takes about 3 months for a good food to kick in and start seeing results. On the other side of that the reaction to allergies and skin stuff can be almost immediate.

Have you tried alternate forms of healing? If you are willing to go holistic foods you also might want to try Reiki or Theta?

There are a great deal of alternatives to surgery.........

Different vets are great at different things, just like human doctors, some get behind in their study and updates and some are just plain comfortable and stuck.

Second opinions never hurt and a vet should be recommending a second or at least not be offended.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi all - thanks again for additional feedback.

JeanKBBMMMAAN - we didn't do Tufts because we had bad experiences with them with our labrador several years ago. We went to Veterinary Dermatology to get an allergy test, but she didn't want to go through with it because she thought she heard a heart murmur. Instead, they did blood work, cleaned his ears and tested for ringworm and stuff. Instead, she told us to try Atopica, which, from what I read, can have nasty side effects for dogs. Original diagnosis from vet was sarcoptic mange...and apparently that wasn't it. He did skin biopsies yesterday, and we should get the results in 5-7 days.

Maybe I'll ask our vet about stem cell when he calls to let me know what he thinks we should do next about Max's legs.

Valb - we didn't change the food that long ago, so we can wait and see on that. Though I still think it's odd that his skin would suddenly flare up out of nowhere. Which is why I think maybe it could be stress-induced??


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

You could try adding a glucosamine supplement to help with the bad elbows and joints.

I'm sorry your poor boy is going through all of this. I know the people on the board give great advice, I'm sure someone will be able to help you think of alternatives to the numerous vet visits.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks - I am reading through some of the health threads and will try some of those options for his "allergies" - definitely not going to use Atopica.

As for the elbows, yeah he's on glucosamine and chondriotin w/MSM. We may try a holistic vet in the area.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I'd also add in a HA supplement, they work great with my older dog in conjunction with Dasiquin. 

http://www.allivet.com/CONQUER-K9-HA-Chewable-Tablet-p/25445.htm

So the dermatologist never found out what he was allergic to? I would be tempted to try a raw diet, maybe to help narrow down if it's a food based allergy? What did the trainer feed while at camp?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

In addition to the supplements he's already on, you might want to try Vitamin E, Ester C (vitamin C), and salmon oil. All help with joint issues and might make him a bit more comfy.


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

As to the stress induced, that might be a possibility I suppose,
or that stress in addition to the poor diet (before) is a 
double whammy type thing. Also look into where he sleeps.
I've known dogs to have reaction to fabric softener sheets
their beds were laundered with...

What is his weight like? Getting it down even a few pounds
(if he needs it) is helpful to those elbows.

I know you said he can't be happy being itchy, but I
do think you can get his problems down to a reasonable,
livable level. 

Do you feel like you have bonded with him? I can understand
if it is hard but I've just been thinking about your posts and
I don't hear you saying how much you love him or anything.
I'm NOT trying to be critical, just trying to work through
things. Maybe there's just been too much for the both of
you, and if you could get things settled down, the picture
would change.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Another thought, are you bathing him often if you are, what with? That could make things worse, but a hypo-allergenic shampoo might help in moderation.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hi there,

I treat my animals almost exclusively holistically and have/am dealing with joint and skin issues. If you post a more comprehensive account of what you know is wrong with him (what did he test to be allergic to, etc.) we can help you come up with some ideas that you could work with with your vet or a holistic vet. 

Did they put him on steroids for the skin stuff? What is the time line on everything (outbreaks, etc.)? Give us as much information as you can including diagnoses, medications prescribed, how long you tried them, etc. 

Also, I can understand why you're discouraged: $1200 for a 2 hour appt? Ouch! That would give me skin problems.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Just want to clarify, Eukanuba does not make the Wellness brand so many are thinking of in their response....I least I don't think thats what people of thinking. There is a brand out there called Wellness (again, not made by Eukanuba) that is a very good dog food. Eukanuba, well....I wouldn't recommend it. 


I would think the most pressing issue right now is to get this pups skin conditions under control as soon as possible. Jean and Ruth know tons about hollistic approaches and I see some other suggestions you might want to try. Who's to say, once the itch is under control he might feel a lot better and have a whole different attitude. 

I'm sorry your both going through this but think it can be resolved. I wouldn't give up yet-you've found us here and with any luck we can help you resolve this.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think the OP was saying that they switched from Eukanuba to Wellness...


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI think the OP was saying that they switched from Eukanuba to Wellness...


Your right...I went back and re-read it and your 100% right. sorry.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

Your vet wouldn't be Banfield would it??


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

This is a quote from mustlovegsd: It might help you check out the link about alergies and itchies.

As I was perusing the web regarding my dog and his allergies/itchies, etc. I came across this site and wanted to get your opinions on this information. I do not believe Cody has a yeast problem as his allergies have been somewhat controlled with limited diet, fish oil, vitamin E & frequent baths. I wanted to give everyone the opportunity to take a look for themselves and see if maybe this was something they would like to look into for their pets. Happy New Year!
http://www.nzymes.com/Articles/dog_or_cat_allergies_assessment.htm?gclid=CMO_pJ_3-Z4CFRJinAodZjFUJA


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Phew...okay, lots of advice and thoughts here! I will try and answer the questions...

Weight: he's now about 92 pounds. When we got him, he was 99. His old owner said he was 115 at one point! Vet said around 90 is good for his size. He's a big boy.

Bonding: Yes, we have bonded. I do love him, which is why I'm torn about what to do. How long do I sacrifice my well-being and health for that of the dog I adopted under a year ago? But also, I don't think I can look him in the eye and give him a death sentence.

Bathing: rarely. In fact, we've only bathed him once since it got cold, with the medicated shampoo and he got a hot spot.

BowWowMeow: I can do my best on timing/treatments based on our vet bills. We took him home on 5/10/09:
5/11/09: stuff for ear infection
5/13/09: lyme test
6/1/09: hotpack/flush/cefpodoxime/carprofen
6/12/09: fecal test for giardia, animax ointment, lyme test
6/15/09: panacur for giardia
6/18/09: betagen spray
7/3/09: temaril-p
7/29/09: tail surgery & related drugs
8/6/09: tramadol
8/10/09: rimadyl + tramadol
During this period I stopped saving invoices...but we had him on Temaril P for this whole time...in September he went to training camp in New Hampshire for two weeks.
11/24/09: flagyl & proviable
11/27/09: Ivermectin & revolution
12/21/09: dermatology appt
12/21/09: Ivermectin, Ichon injectable, skin scraping
12/28/09: x-rays done, skin biopsies taken

No idea what he's allergic to - that's the problem. He seemed to react well to the ivermectin injection, but we had him on the hypoallergenic diet at the same time. Vet ruled out food allergy because he reacted too quickly. So they thought maybe he was reinfested with scabies...but ivermectin didn't work again. So now they want to try Atopica, but I refuse. I want to see if some natural stuff works first.

Vet also called about the x-rays and said, "Your dog is a mess. I hope you pick cars better than you pick dogs." We go to Westside Animal Clinic in Worcester, MA and he sees Dr. Trom and Dr. Murphy. Murphy suggested we wait for skin biopsies to come back and see what we can do - he thinks the skin issue is more important to resolve right now than the joints. But he does have double elbow dysplasia and arthritis in his back knees. Murphy said he must have not been raised very well. I'd say so! Found out his old owner gave him ice cream and sugar treats all the time.

I wish the itch would get better! I don't get why it flared up randomly and I hate making him wear the e-collar all day long when we're at work and the muzzle at night.

Sorry this thread has become all about his health - guess I hijacked this topic!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's your topic so you can hijack it if you want!









With the scabies, did you wash everything he came in contact with? Maybe the ivermectin didn't work because he was still exposed? 

Did you ever talk to the training center to see if any other dogs came/went with skin conditions?

Do you give him any probiotic? I ask because I found read an article that one works specifically on excema so maybe one might help him?


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Skin issues are the worst.








Get him on a grain free diet now.
Nothing but his food for 6 weeks. See if that makes a difference.
Atopica can be a great med. If your thinking about the side effects, is it any worse than euthansia? (Side effects are very rare with this particular drug, HOWEVER, for a 90 pound dog, it is VERY expensive. Allergy testing and allergy shots may be more cost effective in the long run.)
Wellness is a GREAT food! My own dogs do crummy on it. Evo makes a great food too, and my dogs do fine. Raw diet is another option for you. (Trust me, it's not as bad as you think it may be to start up!







)
Why is he muzzled at night? Is it because he chews at himself? This can be a nervous behavior as well.
On a side note, and and a non judgemental one to boot......








I have a dog aggressor here who is supposed to be a guide dog when she grows up.








If she is not constently under my direction, she will begin to chew at her left hock, like a child with a binky.
I have learned her triggers only by working with her very closley, and we have reached some huge milestones.
Will she be a guide? Maybe not. But at least she'll be able to live in a house and be loved.
I would try a training course where you work one on one with your dog, rather than send him to camp.
The results are more than often astounding.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Which form of glucosamine/chrondroitin MSM is he on? I ask, because those made for HUMANS must have a specific shape, a specific coating, etc and this means fillers to hold the pill into that shape and give it that coating. These fillers can, in many cases, cause a dog to itch LIKE MAD. My last senior was miserable on the human glucosamine/chrondroitin?MSM from Walmart. Some dogs tolerate it okay, but many do not and get horribly itchy.

If you would like to try an all-natural raw diet to see if that would help him, I would be quite more than happy to help you personally, even "hold your hand" by phone. I'm not too far from you.







Welcome to the forum, by the way! Please feel welcomed here!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

No advice for you - except, I would not worry about the dysplasia any time soon. I would keep trying to get his wieght better, use joint supplements and work on the skin issues. 

I feel for you and just want to thank you for taking on this dog and being so dedicated to him.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the thoughts and suggestions - because my husband and I are really at the end of our ropes, mentally.









Are there grain-free foods that come in a bag, or do we need to feed him only meat and rice, aka home cooked meals? I'm nervous about a raw diet...and as my husband and I are organic eaters who don't eat red meat or pork, it's definitely hard to feed all this meat to our dog! But I'm willing...

Max is muzzled at night so he doesn't chew/lick himself, yes. Otherwise he'll give himself hotspots and make his feet bleed. 

We did have a trainer come to our home and work with us and Max - didn't seem to help. I asked the boot camp if they noticed anything else, and of course they said no.

We had been giving Max the chewable glucosamine from 1-800-PetMeds but had to stop due to his hypoallergenic diet. So we started him on the stuff from Vitamin Shoppe - they're capsules, so we open them and dump the powder on his food directly.

Brightelf - thanks for the welcome and I may take you up on your offer once I read more about the raw diet! 

We'd like to not use Atopica if at all possible. Does anyone recommend sending out blood to Hemopet for the thyroid test? That could tell us about his aggression and maybe if he has other underlying conditions?

Last night we added apple cider vinegar to his food, and we want to try Nutri-cal and possible a probiotic as well. There are so many great suggestions here I'm overwhelmed!

If anyone is interested, here are MANY pictures of Max:

http://picasaweb.google.com/tracymd/MrMax02?feat=email#


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

You could try the Natural Balance dog foods. They come in a bag, you can buy them at Petco. My dog eats the lamb meal and brown rice. She no longer itches. 

There are many grain-free foods out there. I would try a novel protein (like duck, lamb, venison, rabbit) and a single source carb. Take a look over in the "diet" section of this forum.

I would add fish oil to his diet. We use Allerg3 capsules for large/giant breeds. I drizzle one capsule over a 73 pound dogs dinner. http://www.vetdepot.com/AllerG-3-Fatty-Acids-for-Large-Dog-Breeds-250-Capsules.html

Also, I give my dog a good deep brushing when she is itchy. It seems to help in this weather. A very simple solution that ***might*** help slightly.

good luck!!!!!!!


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

I wasn't confused on the diet, that's why I said it was poor
before, meaning the Eukanuba, not the Wellness...


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: valbI wasn't confused on the diet, that's why I said it was poor
> before, meaning the Eukanuba, not the Wellness...


No, I think that was just my mistake...I read the post wrong.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just have a second here but I have a few thoughts for you. 

1) I would seriously consider a raw diet at this point. If you're not comfortable doing it yourself then you can get preprepared raw from Bravo, Nature's VAriety, Oma's Pride or Honest Kitchen. It can make a HUGE difference in overall health. 

2) The steroid is contraindicated if you're dealing with mange. If it is mange then you want to boost and not suppress the immune system. 

3) Stress very well could have been what triggered the skin problems but now you've got to get them under control. 

4) If you add in too many new things at once you won't know what's working and/or causing additional problems. I would figure out what you want to try and introduce things one at a time. 

5) I have had several dogs with severe joint problems. I have managed them using a double or triple dose of Springtime Inc's Longevity and 2000mg of Ester C a day. Not all joint supplements are created equally. You absolutely have to get your dog on Ester C. It will help with the immune issues too. Work up to it gradually as it can cause diarrhea if introduced too quickly in the larger dose. I also used some additional herbal anti inflammatories and homeopathy for my senior dog Chama. I can tell you more about those if you want. 

6) There is a good product called Infamazyme. It's working well for my friend's dog who has SEVERE skin problems. http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Inflamzyme/106005.aspx

7) I agree that a good Omega 3 oil can help. 

I'll try to add more later! Thanks for trying to help this dog.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I would want to send the blood out to Hemopet. They do a thorough job at a very reasonable price.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI just have a second here but I have a few thoughts for you.
> 
> 1) I would seriously consider a raw diet at this point. If you're not comfortable doing it yourself then you can get preprepared raw from Bravo, Nature's VAriety, Oma's Pride or Honest Kitchen. It can make a HUGE difference in overall health.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I think we'll try the raw diet, once I have a chance to read more and figure out how to go about starting it. But we will go slow, because I feel we've been switching foods on Max a lot, trying to figure out what may work. You're not the only one who's suggested Vitamin C, so we'll definitely start him on that and some probiotics to help him during the transition. I just need to figure out where to get the right meats! Since we don't eat red meat and only eat organic poultry, I don't have relationships with any butchers. Assume doing these diets ourselves is cheaper than using one of those pre-made ones.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You should be able to find some organic farmers in Western MA.







I lived in Amherst/Noho/Montague/Shutesbury for 8 years. I eat the same way you do but I do feed Rafi grass fed, hormone and antibiotic free beef when I can get it for a good price. 

I think Ester C would be a good place to start.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Your Max is such a gorgeous and fun boy!! I loved ALL the pictures, in particular the ones of his expressive face, under the table and wearing a raincoat!!

We are also on raw diet with our cats and pupster!

One of our kitties had all kinds of problems -- we switched to raw, and for two years already -- not a single trip to the vet!!

Our pupster was iching as a puppy, and we spend 1000+ -- switched to raw, and the itch is all gone!

There is a great raw feeding forum here with the best resources, links and personal testimonies! One word from experence -- be careful with feeding him chicken -- lots of dogs seem to be alergic to chicken (we only fed organic chicken to Xargos, and he is alergic to it..)

Great job on apple cider!! Is Max ok with it in his food? I tried giving it to Xargos in his water -- he would not drink with cide in it..

Tanya


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

What a handsome boy!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Max seems good with apple cider vinegar - gobbles his food right up.









I was looking at the BARF threads and have to go back there and ask qestions...I was thinking about it and how we give him treats on walks sometimes. Wondering how that would work on raw.

I'm praying the raw diet has the effects everyone has been talking about, because I feel so bad for Max constantly trying to scratch, lick, etc.

And thank you - Max is a cute, sweet dog, which is what makes this all so hard!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI just have a second here but I have a few thoughts for you.
> 
> 1) I would seriously consider a raw diet at this point. If you're not comfortable doing it yourself then you can get preprepared raw from Bravo, Nature's VAriety, Oma's Pride or Honest Kitchen. It can make a HUGE difference in overall health.


I looked online and I can get Honest Kitchen products down the street from me, and Bravo products are also sold close by. Have not checked on the other two.

Would you recommend Honest Kitchen? That would be most convenient for us...three of the varieties sound like they'd be good for Max, and it will take some of the pressure off from us figuring out the whole raw diet thing. At least then we can see if it works and go from there!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Honest Kitchen is an excellent food - I've used it for the dogs backpacking and they do very well on it. I think it would be a great way to feed raw and to transition to feeding homemade raw if you decide that's what you want to do.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I just wanted to say I'm very glad for you that you are considering a raw diet for Max. It seems daunting when you first start, but you soon find out it isn't all that hard once you get going on it. 
I've never used prepared raw, but I think there are people on here that use Honest Kitchen. 

Have you seen this "before and after" thread in the Raw section?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1104807&page=1#Post1104807

I do not have an dramatic before/after pictures, my mixed breed has a nice coat to start, even before Raw, but switching her over to raw did away with her spay incontinence that was not responding to medication.

Spay incontinence issues are due to inadequate hormone levels after a spay - supplementing with synthetic estrogen did nothing - it was by accident that I found out that taking her OFF all kibble and grains and carbs (including grain-free kibbles that had potato and green pea flour, for example), and unto a 100% raw diet, her hormone levels normalized and we have but only very occasional leaking accidents. So hoping that a raw diet can balance out whatever it is that Max is so desperately needing to balance out. 

For training treats, I use bits of weiners for my girl. Though two or three small Milk Bones a day does not seem to have any negative effects. But if Max is dealing with allergies, even one commercial treat could cause his itching problem. 

I also know people who use cooked chicken or cooked liver for training treats: cook it until dry, cut into little pieces. Freeze in small portions. Take out and thaw for daily training rations.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks jarn and Castlemaid...I did go back and see that where people posted their dog's diets they mentioned using bits of hot dog or fruit as treats. Looks like I could even use some of the freeze-dried raw treats from Nature's Variety, which is also sold at the pet store down the street (Pet Barn). 

I also had looked at the before and after topic yesterday, which is what convinced me. Max has a great coat already but his skin is flaky and itchy with the red areas and bumps that look like mosquito bites. Poor boy









Castlemaid - that's crazy that changing your dog's diet like that helped with the hormone issues! How come vets never consider raw diet and always jump to drugs and medications? It's really a shame, which is why I'm thinking of changing to the holistic vet that's about 30 minutes from our house. Though I think our current vets are good and nice, they just seem too focused on traditional methods.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Be prepared that a lot of vets are against raw feeding - they see people in their practice that do it wrong and the dogs have issues, or hear horror stories of dogs that have health issues due to inadequate raw variety - but it isn't all that hard to do it right. But a wholistic vet I think would be more open and supportive of raw. Traditional vets will stick to what they know - which is medicating - but I used to have a vet that was big on quality food, I was surprised, most vets don't even ask what you feed your dog. 

A book I always recommend that helped me gain the confidence to go ahead with raw is Ian Billinghurst's "Give Your Dog a Bone". 
I think that one reason vets are against raw, is that in the early days, before info on raw was available through the internet and books, (books mostly available off the internet - it's not like you can walk into a book store or a pet store and find books on raw feeding . . . ), people who tried raw to overcome their dogs' allergies and skin issues did not understand the importance of variety in the diet. For example, someone with a dog like Max tries every prepared diet on the planet with no improvement. In desperation, they start feeding raw chicken. Raw chicken breasts only, with no bones, because EVERYONE knows that chicken bones are bad and dangerous (only cooked!! perfectly safe raw, but few people knew this). So dog improves dramatically on nothing but raw chicken breasts!!! For the first time in years, dog is not itching!!! So why mess with something that works? Dog is on a steady diet or raw chicken breast, and at first all is well, but nutritional deficiencies start to crop up in about a year's time - which is when the vets get to see the "results" of a raw fed dog. 
So in their mind, doing raw is too complicated for most people to do properly, and dog will get seriously ill and suffer from serious nutritional deficiencies. 

Of course, through word-of-mouth, greater availability of books from the internet, and the internet itself, so much more information is available now, it does not take much to have the help and guidance to do it right. 

The idea of taking full responsibility for my dogs feeding by doing it myself, as opposed to buying a "scientifically balanced" dog food was scary at first, but that is the vets and commercial food producers trying to influence you - dogs where doing fine for hundreds and hundreds of year before kibble was even invented! it is really hard to mess up raw feeding, ratios and amounts are a guideline. Just like we don't have to measure and calculate everything we eat to be healthy, but follow common-sense choices, so with our dogs. I have never measured anything, eye-balled amounts, watched their poop for guidance for more or less bone, and all is well!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I use Honest Kitchen and Bravo for Rafi. He does great on both. There is a coupon on Honest Kitchen's website for $5 off so be sure to print that. Also, notice that for several of the grain free varieties you have to add additional meat.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

My offer to help by phone, talking you through safely and easily starting raw (either premade or DIY) is still open! If you like, I can help you ... I'd be happy to!









PS-- I'm the owner of Grimm, one of the dogs featured in the "before and after" raw thread. In his "before" pictures, he was on a grain-free kibble. Grain-free kibble still is processed, has lots of carbs (potatoes etc) needed to hold the kibbles together, and really was more irritating to him than helpful. Grimm itched terribly on grain-free kibble, had a poor coat, and that's WITH fish oil and E added to the meals. Raw made a huge difference for him. No more sores, hotspots, itching. A soft, thick coat.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Stupid question - if we want to get hot dogs to use as treats, do we cook them or give them to him the same way we get them??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't cook the hot dogs - and no one I know who uses hot dogs for training treats cooks them (they come pre-cooked) - but if cooking them makes you more comfortable for handling hot dogs, it won't make any difference if you do.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I'm glad you're considering raw. If starting out with the premade is what makes your comfortable, go for it! I stuck my toe in the water by just giving pork necks, then more raw foods, then a 50/50 raw/kibble diet and now am full raw. 

I will say, my older dog's fur is much softer and rarely needs washing (unless he wollers in something dead







). He also lacks that "doggy smell" that he had before. 

Vets aren't big raw fans--mine actually handed me an article written in 1989 about raw food not being safe for dogs since it's not "human grade" which is false. All my raw products are human grade, although I doubt I'll be chewing on a chicken neck anytime soon.







So we just agree not to discuss it, but I always get "wow their teeth look great!" when I take them in. 

As with the others, I am much happier knowing what goes in my dogs rather than what's listed on a label--which isn't always accurate. I think a change in diet, adding in some fish oil, vitamin E and Ester C will help your pup tremendously!


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Oh and for treats we use the Natural Balance rolls cut up. They love those!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have had good luck with dehydrated lamb lung by Merrick. They are easy to carry, grain free and generally dogs tolerate them well.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Cooked hot dogs!!

Sorry, don't remember who published the receipt recently and called them nuked dogs -- my Xargos goes crazy over them!!!

Here is what you do: cut very thinly; but into your microwave between layers of paper towel (I use two at the bottom and one at the top); and microwave! (for me, it's microwaving for 10 minutes).

They are very easy to use, clean to handle, and I keep them in a bowl on my large island (so that Xargos cannot get to them) and use throughtout the day for training!!

Also, use Natural Balance with huge success for training on walks.. also you can use Lamb's Ears!

Another huge hit is Dog's Jerky from Omaha Steaks (it's human grade but without spices) -- so good!!

Tanya


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lauri did! I did it with the ham leftover from Christmas. Whatever was left on the bone I put in the microwave until it stopped popping. Nice little crispy bacon treats!


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Thank you, Lauri and Michelle, from us all here and Xargos!!

We did not know how to make them before Lauri published a week or so ago, and it's now a stable for us and such a hit with the pupster!!

A word of caution: they are delicious and addictive to humans and not just to dogs! 

So one treat for Xargos, one treat for Mommy, and so goes it : )

Tanya


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

ah, people here are going to help you and you won't be 'preparing to say good-bye' anymore!!!

also just want to say that most vets are like most docs...that's what they've been taught, that's all they know...drugs and surgery. fortunately change in in the wind, but slow in coming.

i applaud you for your willingness to look for alternatives to a more final solution. i think you've come to the right place.

happy new year, many blessings.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Agree, once you get some of the medical issues under control, then the training will be easier, and you can then also focus more on the joint issues.

I would highly recommend gettting the full thyroid panel run through Hemopet, I think it's Riley's Mom that does this, but I might be wrong??? I think it's the 5 item one. You can go through your vet that probably would send out the panel to Michigan State. You want to be sure to get the full one that includes the thryoglobulin antibodies (TgAA). I cannot believe that this has not yet been done? 

Atopica is used for immune-mediated skin issues. The Derm that we see says that most dogs either need an anti-fungal or atopica. GSDs are particularly susceptible to fungus.

I might have an alternative for you, though it isn't alternative









Another immune modulator would be the doxycycline and niaminicide combination. I have my dog on this, monitored by the Derm. I would use only the doxy capsules for this, and your dog would need about 300 mg of doxy twice a day, and at least 500 mg of niacinimide twice a day. I actually started my boy on this before I saw the Derm. I also added some Tylan to help with digestive issues AND a staph infection. The Derm added an anti-fungal ketoconazole. The doxy/niaminicide protocol is used for a number of skin mediated issues, including thing like pemphigus - it is good when there is immune-mediated inflammation.

The Derm said that about 80% of the GSDs that she says get better with an anti-fungal - it was true for Max. I would try that protocol before going to the Atopica. With any luck you won't need it, but this protocol might work on many different levels, as opposed to the Atopica.

The added benefit of the doxy protocol, is if you have tick issues, that may or may not show up on tests, it will also help with those. Some of the aggression, if there is a chance of tick disease, can be related to that. 

Be careful when adding stuff not to boost the immune system at this point. If this were standard mange, as BowWowMeow pointed out, then you would want to boost, but it doesn't sound like standard mange. The Infamazyme product that she posted, good for inflammation, would be a great product to try, it will not suppress, not boost.

Great that you are going to try the diet change. I feed homecooked, and it makes a huge difference.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi everyone - just wanted to let you know we gave Max his first raw meal tonight (courtesy of Nature's Variety venison patties). If he seems to react well to raw, we'll move onto homemade raw meals. I also ordered "Give your Dog a Bone" and hope it comes in the mail soon. I'd much rather give Max the RM than pre-made patties.

So cross your fingers and I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for all of your feedback and suggestions...I'll ask our vet about the full thyroid panel when we're there to get his sutures out next Monday.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Did he like his first raw meal?

BTW, I just want to say I commend you for coming on here and listening and investigating the options people have given. Sometimes people come on here just looking for justification for what they want to do, what may be best for the dog while disregarding options that, yes take a little bit of work, but could possibly help their companion. The fact that you are looking into so many options is such a testiment of how much you love Max.

I really really hope that any of these help Max and that you guys have a great 2010 and many more years together. You guys are in my prayers!! Keep us posted!! We're all here rooting for you guys, so if you ever need someplace to vent or ramble, please feel free!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's awesome Vio, hope this is the start of a BIG change!!! I echo aubie, and commend you on listening, researching, and taking action. 

It is frustrating when so many of us try to help out, but they have their mind made up and are only looking for justification for their decision that "there is nothing else we can do" mentality, and won't even try even after two pages of suggestions and success stories to insipire them, because, well, it would mean changing what they have always done, and that is asking for too much! 

Kudos for being brave and jumping in!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Ditto the couple post above!!

Do be sure to report back.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hey - thank YOU all for your suggestions and help!

So he's been on the raw diet for a little over 2 days now (6 meals) - one patty per meal mixed with some raw round beef, green beans, and vitamin supplements.

His itching isn't any better, though I'm pretty sure I can't expect miracles within days.

But any ideas on what I can do in the meantime? I'm working from home today and can't be on him constantly to keep him from chewing/licking himself - when we're gone we leave him wearing the lampshade. And his red spots aren't any better. Tried putting on some apple cider vinegar, but that didn't help. He just licked all the spots where I put it. It's very, very frustrating!


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

I haven't read through all of the responses, but have you had his thyroid checked?

I know of a dog in a shelter in MI who was adopted and returned at least three times because of what they thought were severe allergies. This dog was constantly scratching and losing fur. He was treated for every allergy under the sun, food was changed several times, and he was on a prescription food when he was returned to the shelter the last time - I don't know which food it was.

A rescue in OH took him in and a vet from MA that I had been correpsonding with suggested testing his thyroid. With all the vets he had been to, nobody had considered his thyroid and he was found to be severely hypothroid. Less than 2 months on thyroid replacement he was a new dog. I have photos, but I can't post them from Photobucket while at work - but the difference was amazing. 

Possibly some of his aggression issues and joint problems could be from hypothyroidism as well? Just something else to consider if it hasn't already been done. 

EDITED: Sorry!! I just found the other post about checking his thyroid!!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: raysmomI haven't read through all of the responses, but have you had his thyroid checked?
> 
> I know of a dog in a shelter in MI who was adopted and returned at least three times because of what they thought were severe allergies. This dog was constantly scratching and losing fur. He was treated for every allergy under the sun, food was changed several times, and he was on a prescription food when he was returned to the shelter the last time - I don't know which food it was.
> 
> ...


This is definitely something I've wondered about. We're taking Max to the vet to get sutures out next Monday. Wondering if we should ask them to take some blood and send it off to Hemopet for testing? I assume we'd need the full panel. 

The only thing that makes me not sure about thyroid is that the sever itching wasn't always a problem - it seemed to start suddenly the beinning of October. Before that he was itchy but not insane itchy like he is now...then again, he was on Temaril-P for almost all of the summer and into the fall, so maybe that hid some of the symptons.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

> Quote:Wondering if we should ask them to take some blood and send it off to Hemopet for testing? I assume we'd need the full panel.


I would definitely do that - as long as you're testing, you might as well get the most comprehensive test possible! Many vets will only order the T4 and that alone doesn't tell the whole story. The full panel that Lisa suggested a few posts above is the way to go, IMHO. 

It's odd that it would've started suddenly at the beginning of October, but possibly his thyroid levels dropped to an all-time low at that time. Since he was itchy before and it has gotten so much worse, it's possible. I wasn't familiar with Temaril-P, but after looking it up, I think it's entirely possible that it masked some of the symptoms.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

Vio79 -

I sent you a PM with the contact info for the vet in MA who helped with the dog from MI. I'm sure she'd be happy to offer her advice if you want it.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Cool, vet just called back and said we can discuss the thyroid while we're there next Monday.









Though I was just on Riley's Place site reading about Riley's thyroid issues, and Max's aggression isn't random like that. He consistently is aggressive towards dogs only. If he ever barks at a human, it's usually a male and he'll calm down once he realizes the person is "okay." 

I'm getting so impatient - wish I could get answers faster than this!!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

And for your entertainment....here's a picture of Max wearing my home made leggings! (Prevents him from chewing up his legs.)


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hmm, I read in another thread that someone's dog was allergic to beef. Is that common? I'm just thinking that we may have started adding cooked ground beef to Max's diet back around September, which is when the itching got really bad. And we're now feeding him raw beef with his venison patties. There was a time we ran out of beef and stopped adding it to his meals, but I don't remember if it affected his itching, because we didn't even think of a beef allergy - we were so focused on grains or other sources.

Though I don't think the Eukanuba or Wellness foods we had him on had any beef.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You're boy is definitely stylin'









Is he only licking at his front legs?

These dogs can be sensitive to just about anything. With poultry my Max vomits and with beef he chews his paws, with pork he gets really red eyes and feels like crap until everything goes bad. Beef is a common allergen because there are beef products in vaccines, so often they can become sensitized to it at a young age.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ugh don't say that! I'm starting to feel hopeless!









I wish it was only his legs - it's just today he's really going at his front legs, especially near his armpits. His skin is all red around there. But no, he also chews his feet, tail, chest, back, etc. You name it, he chews it.

Guess we'll keep him on the current diet for a bit and see if things change. No idea how long it takes to see results due to change in diet.

Then we'll ask for the thyroid panel Monday and see what else our vet has to say, like if he learned anything from the skin biopsies.

I'm feeling super overwhelmed - this is our first dog, and I really expected to adopt a dog and just have to worry about walks, food, grooming, etc., at least until he got older. Not to mention we thought he was 2 and he turns out to be 6+ years old.







If I'd known he'd be a dog-aggressive health-mess, I would have passed. Which sucks because I'm pretty sure he would have been euthanized. So it's good we got him and have given him what I think is a good life, but even I'm getting to the end of my rope. I wish someome would wave a magic wand and a woman who only wants to take care of problem dogs (one at a time) would show up and take Max. Because I think my husband's and my stress is affecting Max, too. We always are yelling at him to stop scratching/chewing and I know he feels our frustration. Not to mention we have stairs that Max MUST climb for every walk and he's got these joint issues as well.

Wow...must be one of those days. I'm whining and crying to everyone!


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

Does anyone remember the dog from a year or two ago who had similar problems, sores on his body, etc and they ended up going to a vet teaching hospital, I think in GA or KY? I think the dog's name was "Chance" and from what I remember he finally was diagnosed and he did get better, but I don't remember the specifics of the case. 

His condition sounds very similar to this one


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Once in awhile, you just have to sit down and whine, so you can go back and regroup. My first dog was a health mess too...unfortunately, so is my second dog.

Okay, if you change the diet, and all signs are getting worse, then the diet is not right. 

Going through the diet history in this thread:

Can you tell us what hypoallergenic diet that he was given from the vet that made him vomit and have diarrhea? Was that the Eukanuba, or another kibble?

Then you changed to a kibble mixed with ground beef, is that the Wellness? which Wellness food were you feeding?

Now you are feeding venison patties from NV, with ground beef mixed in, right? 

Any other foods that you have fed that we have missed?

============

While waiting for the responses to the above, my immediate thought is stop any and all beef products, and see what happens.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

raysmom, I think you are right....


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would stop the beef if you even think it might be causing problems. I would do a novel protein only and see if that helps. Nature's Variety makes rabbit patties and rabbit is generally easy to digest. Or you could stick with the venison. 

I think Chance had an autoimmune disease...phemingus??? Jean would remember. But his symptoms were really different as I recall.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

This is what we have fed Max, to the best of my memory:

Started on Eukanuba for GSD and fed that to him for months (May - Sept) without major issues, but he was also on Temaril-P during much of that time.

Switched to Hill's Prescription Z/D diet on vet's recommendation (dry kibble for meals and wet for his pills). This caused him diarrhea.

When we thought scabies were the culprit, went back to Eukanuba and tried mixing in cooked ground beef.

We then decided that we wanted to try a diet with less "junk" so we got Wellness Super 5 from Whole Foods. I can't remember the protein in it, but I think it was chicken. Also mixed cooked ground beef.

And I can't even tell you the variety of "treats" we were giving him...which we have stopped.

Then I saw this board and all the raw diet stuff and decided maybe he needed a "virgin" diet to fix his issues. And looking at all the positive reactions, I figured why not.

So since Saturday night he's been eating the venison patties with dehydrated lamb lung treats and hot dog as snacks. We can remove the raw beef...but any suggestions on what to supplement with? He needs more than just the patty for breakfast and dinner, since 2 patties a day is for a 70-lb dog and Max is 92 lbs. I don't want him vomiting from an empty stomach again. Crap, and I think that means we need to stop giving him the pieces of hot dog as a snack because they are beef hot dogs.

Just wish I knew if it really is the beef...maybe it's too soon on the raw diet to tell? His itching is worse, but it's certainly not better.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think you need to move exclusively to a novel protein. I wonder about supplementing with eggs? Most dogs can tolerate eggs. I give Rafi one raw egg a day and I think Lisa gives her dogs two cooked hard boiled eggs a day. But that still wouldn't be enough food...

You can get a coupon for a free 3 lb. bag of Nature's Variety medallions here. Maybe you could just put him on venison or rabbit for a couple of weeks? 

http://www.naturesvariety.com/tryit/register/form


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

I am creating a document of all the suggestions for meds you guys have given me, so I can bring it to the vet Monday. No way would I remember all of this...

Yes I could just put him on one protein for a few weeks and see how it goes. Wish I had stuck with one to begin with, since we now have the dehydrated lamb lung treats ($15 for a small bag) and also the venison. Wonder if combining those two would be okay.

And I know what my husband would say: "Why do you keep changing your mind on everything based on what strangers are saying?"









Think adding a veggie is okay, or should I just stick with the venison patties only (+ lamb lung treats) and see how that goes????

Sorry I'm so clueless...but all this is so new to me.

LisaT - not sure what happened to your other post (it seemed to have disappeared) but I think Max's booster shot was the third in a series that had been started before we got him. But his records were pretty spotty and our vet was confused by the timing of shots that the shelter provided when we adopted him. They were doing their best with what they knew (or didn't know). My parents took their dogs there for years and loved the vets. So I'm reluctant to stop seeing them at this point since they know Max so well. I know we won't be returning to the dermatologist. Did NOT like her at all.

Guess I should head to the store and stock up on more venison patties and medalions!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh yeah and we also have been adding apple cider vinegar to his meals...and just bought the Nupro stuff. Hold off on that too??


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I deleted the other post, just to back up and post more carefully.

I understand what your husband is saying, but you have LOTS of collective experience here. I knew a lot about K9 health before I got a GSD. Then I *really* had to learn about K9 health....

Gonna post this for now, will be back shortly with more.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

First about the food. You need a single protein, and a single carb source for right now. You could get really lucky and have this be mostly about common allergens like beef, corn, etc., but few of us are that lucky.

So, find a food, and feed ONLY that food. You can feed the NV only, but I know that's *really* cost prohibitive for a large dog. I feed homecook, not one to recommend kibble, BUT for a trial, I might try one of the Natural Balance kibbles, or one of the Pinnacle versions, or even California Natural. I would look for something with lamb only or fish only (no chicken fat, etc., you will have to read the labels and make sure there are no other meat proteins, and you will want one that is potato based, or some novel grain like oatmeal). There might be some pre-packeaged raw that you can feed, but my experience is that the affordable ones all have either poultry or beef, and I would keep your boy away from both of these for now. 

Because you have not yet tried a quality food that has only one novel protein with one carb source, this was an important step that was skipped. Until this is tried, you probably can't assume it's something more major.

It is important to add nothing at all while you are doing this trial. If it goes well, then we go from there. One of the first things I'm thinking would be a good probiotic.

Part two to follow...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Second, the medical issues. 

It is difficult for me to be kind to a vet that vaccinates a dog with these types of ongoing problems. Two weeks ago he had both parvo and distempter, both can cause all sorts of reactions. Your boy should have been titered when the background is unknown or unsure. Your boy, having been vaccinated as an adult, never needs these vaccines again. Do stick to your guns on this. While he is ill, he should not receive rabies either. He most likely never needs rabies again, but there are legal issues with skipping that vaccine. There are no issues with not giving the other vaccines ever again, do not let your vet pressure you into this.

Okay, if the food trial goes well, you won't need to address skin issues with meds, etc. But, just a few thoughts.....

If they are looking at Atopica, they want to suppress an immune reaction. Your boy doesn't even have a diagnosis, which really concerns me.

If this is an allergy, you want to get at the source of that allergy and treat that, by removing what you can from the diet and environment, and building the system up with diet and supplements. 

If this is not an allergy but immune mediated, then you want to modulate the immune system, and Atopica is used for that, and many dogs *must* have that when nothing else works. I may have to put Max on that for some of his issues, though we are not there yet.

The first try at modulating an immune system can be done with diet and supplements, helped by acupuncture. When that doesn't work, or more immediate relief is needed, then you have to resort to meds. Drugs like Atopica are powerful, and they do about one thing, they suppress immune response.

There is another step, half-way between here and there, and that's using other drug protocols. The combination of the antibiotic doxycycline and the vitamin niacinimide is often used by vets, dermatologists, etc. to modulate immune response. I am using this protocol now with my boy. I have seen it used with pemphigus, and also wiith panniculitis.

One reason that I would *really* be interested to see this used on your boy before the atopica is because of all the other stuff going on. There are aggression issues, there are joint pain issues. _There is a history of tick exposure._ Doxycycline is one of the most effective antibiotics against most tick diseases.

You might have noticed from my sig line that I'm kinda into the "tick thing". Been dealing with those issues for the last 12 years with my girl, I've been on the "tick list" for a very long time. On the list, we've had dogs improve in all sorts of areas once their tick disease was treated. So who knows what changes you might see. Btw, testing is notorious bad for tick diseases, so I wouldn't even bother with the test at this point.

If you do have to resort to meds, and it is very likely you will have to if this isn't luckily some food allergy that hasn't become too out of control, then I would ask your vet about a trial of doxy and niacinamide. My 77 pound boy is getting 200 mg of doxy with 500 mg of the niac. at breakfast and again at dinner. I also found that when he was switched to the doxy tablets, he slowly declined, and is again getting better with the capsules. It's worth it to have the vet special order the capsules if they aren't on hand. Luckily, it's not an expensive med. Often you can get it online w/o a script, but the capsules have been difficult to get lately.

In the post I deleted, I also recommended combining that with Tylan. That's for general digestion issues (so many of our GSDs need it), but also in case there is an opportunistic staph infection. There again, the tylan serves two purposes.

The derm that I went to said that nearly every GSD she sees gets better when she adds the anti-fungal ketoconozole. So with the GSD susceptibility to yeast (that may already be contributing to the itchiness), combined with the antibiotics, an anti-fungal isn't a terrible idea. 

So yeah, that's a lot of drugs, but you would be combating several things at the same time, and then you can taper back. The Atopica just does one thing, it's expensive, and has more major side effects.

So, just some thoughts I was having, don't know if they are useful or not. Still would like to see that thyroid panel (including TgAA).

Whew, I think that's it for now!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Lisa - thanks so much! Like I mentioned, this has all gone into a document I will print and bring to my vet for discussion. I think they are open to alternatives, so I'll see what he says! 

As for rabies, I need up-to-date rabies vaccinations (and proof) in order to license a dog in Worcester. It's a legal requirement, though I don't think they actively look for dogs that aren't licensed. I think I have until May to do that though. But maybe I can get a waiver from the vet.

Just got back from buying a ton of Natures Variety raw venison formula (and venison jerky for treats). I'm sure I could return most of it if necessary - if you really think we should, for a trial only, just try some sort of simple kibble. I know the pet store near where I work carries a lot of the kibble, including Evo, Wellness, California Natural, etc. I just don't want to keep switching it up, and still not sure how to deal with "treats" during this time. My mom walks him during the day when we're at work and likes to have treats handy in case she runs across a dog and needs to distract Max. Guess pieces of the kibble could suffice, if you really think raw venison formula isn't the way to go. Yeah, expensive, but what the heck at this point. Everyone sold me on raw!









I really appreciate all of your information and advice and will definitely have my husband read this and see what he thinks.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You could go with the NV, as long as you *only* feed that.

My Indy has a permanent exemption with our local animal control for her rabies. When the time comes, you could call your AC and see what your options are.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Good to know! I'll have to check in on that.

OK, will try NV raw patties ONLY for now...think the ocassional venison jerky is okay for treats? Here are ingredients:

venison, dry chicory root, vegetable glycerin, organic sea salt, mixed tocopherols, organic garlic.

Says it's 95% real venison, free range etc. Not raw though.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes, the treats should be okay, because they are also venison and don't have other stuff added to them.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

THANK YOU.
Will keep you posted!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am so hoping for an encouraging update, and soon!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I honestly think going with the raw venison is better than any kibble. I've had so many dogs now who don't do well on kibble, no matter the ingredients. 

I would bet that you don't need a rabies vaccine and can do a titer instead. Most states accept titers for licensing.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

NV patties are 95% venison with 5% other stuff including lamb and all sorts of eggs (chicken, quail, etc). Hopefully that doesn't do anything.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I agree with BowWowMeow about the NV being better, but I also know sometimes there are financial constraints.

The NV does have other things in them, but as long as there is no chicken meat, no turkey meat, and no beef, it will work for our trial. I didn't know that it had lamb, but.......since he wasn't on a lamb food before, I'm not too worried about it. Eggs can be a common allergen, but we'll cross that bridge if we have to.

While the NV may contain all sorts of other "stuff", kibbles do too, and often things like mycotoxins and other bad things. So in a trial, that can complicate things too. The less manufactured you can get, the better.

Here rabies titers are specifically excluded, but the county had no problem with an exemption letter.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Just wanted to add this is great advice! Keep on keepin' on Vio and Max!!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

All right, I'm calling the vet this morning to see about the drugs. Max was up all night scratching again. On my way to work, I got stuck in traffic for 20 minutes and absolutely lost my mind. Starting bawling hysterically and hyperventilating. Turned around and drove back to my parent's house to call in sick - I do NOT want to go home and deal with Max. Sorry, I'm at wit's end right now. I'm risking my job and my sanity for this dog I got 8 months ago! I know this sounds harsh, but I can't handle watching Max torture himself, and I also can't handle this constant lack of sleep and dealing with his seemingly never-ending issues. Even if we do get the skin under control, his legs are another problem. We have stairs... and now his back right leg is clicking when he walks.

Seriously, I may need help rehoming him, or I am going to have to put him down so I don't lose my job, friends and life.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I am sorry........ sometimes it is too much.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I know you said you had a bad experience at Tuft's years ago with a lab. Was it with the dermatology service? I had someone tell me that Cornell wasn't that great, but they were seeing an oncologist, and of course there was not a good result because of the disease being treated. And within each teaching hospital there will be strengths and weaknesses but you sound like you need-

-results and information sooner than later
-a system

I haven't been able to follow this thread and maybe later will have time to go back through but this could be something to do with allergies, something to do with an autoimmune disorder, etc etc and without a system, and a person to go through that with you "live" it will be frustrating. 

People here like to dibble and dabble and try this and that and have a comfort level with it. 

If you don't (and in this case I would not either because it is impacting your dog's quality of life) I would go to the very best place I could find (and maybe the derms there aren't the best - so find the best) within a day's drive, do my research, have a list of questions and would make sure they understood how serious it was. 

You've gone this far with him, just take it one day at a time. It's not his fault - but we choose how we react to things and it's time to take control of it and choose strength because you can do it.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks.
Actually talked to our vet...well, she called me wen she got the message that I was ready to kill the dog and said she wants to take him and board him (for free) for two weeks and see what happens. The environment is more sterile and they can better control things there. I'm fine with it because I need a break and he obviously needs help.

LisaT - she was not into trying the meds you listed. She said most of them don't even apply to what she thinks Max's issues are, especially the Tylam and the antifungal. 

We'll drop him off tonight and cross our fingers she can figure things out.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I do hope that she can find a solution.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANPeople here like to dibble and dabble and try this and that and have a comfort level with it.
> 
> If you don't (and in this case I would not either because it is impacting your dog's quality of life) I would go to the very best place I could find (and maybe the derms there aren't the best - so find the best) within a day's drive, do my research, have a list of questions and would make sure they understood how serious it was.


Jean is absolutely right btw. Many of us are comfortable dabbling, BUT, your boy is pretty miserable, and you guys are just about at the end of your rope, understandably. The situation right now is pretty acute, and intervention is needed.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Totally agree - just dropped off Max. Vet wants to cook him meals w/rabbit and fish. She said venison is a "hot" protein, whereas fish/rabbit are "cool." She did not seem against raw diet as well - she just didn't agree with using raw venison. She's going to work with her friend, a holistic vet out in CA. They are going to test his blood serum for allergies and ALSO send out to Hemopet for full thyroid panel (though she doesn't think it's his thyroid).

She'll also give glucosamine and that stuff that starts with an "A" injections for his joint problems. 

Cross your fingers!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Is this the vet that you have had all this time? She sounds like a real winner.

She is right about venison. It is a hot protein.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I 've been reading thru this thread, and just wanted to wish Max and you the best of luck,,he's lucky you took him in, even tho it's been a frustrating ride.

Gorgeous boy too! I hope your vet can get things resolved and max feels better soon..Hang in there, I'm sure this boy appreciates the good home he has with you)


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTIs this the vet that you have had all this time? She sounds like a real winner.
> 
> She is right about venison. It is a hot protein.


Well, we've been working with several of the vets but mainly this vet and her husband (they own the practice). Her husband mainly does surgeries but he sees patients as well, especially when his wife is not around. We discussed with her all of the things you and others in the thread have brought up and she didn't flat out shut them down, but she seems to think he may have an environmental allergy, maybe to something in our home. But hey, at least she's willing to do Hemopet and a blood serum test, which is more than the dermatologist was willing to do! She knew I was ready to jump off a bridge with Max in my arms and she offered to take him in for free, cook his meals, and start him on meds just to relieve his itching and THEN go about trying to determine the underlying cause. Don't know how many vets would do that. I can't complain. Like you said, the issue is too troublesome to just try this or that and "see if it works."

JakodaCD OA - thanks for your support. I really do hope they can find out what's wrong and come up with an inexpensive solution, because I really like having Max around. Just can't deal with month after month of no sleep and trips to the vet!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just took Onyx to the vet yesterday because of chronic ear infections, feet chewing and she licks her lower abdomen. We had the HESKA allergy test run, along w/ thyroid. I thought of going with a Derm, but went to my vet first. 
My last vet just put her on Pred and said the allergy tests were a waste of $. The Pred did stop the itching, but the cause was still there, and I won't put her on it again.
My vet seems to think Onyx's issues are due to dust mites. It is a royal PITA to get this under control. She is rawfed, and I have done elimination diets.
I typed out her history for the new vet and was shocked to see she has been treated for her ears 6 time since she was 8 months(she is now 3). I let this go far too long.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI just took Onyx to the vet yesterday because of chronic ear infections, feet chewing and she licks her lower abdomen. We had the HESKA allergy test run, along w/ thyroid. I thought of going with a Derm, but went to my vet first.
> My last vet just put her on Pred and said the allergy tests were a waste of $. The Pred did stop the itching, but the cause was still there, and I won't put her on it again.
> My vet seems to think Onyx's issues are due to dust mites. It is a royal PITA to get this under control. She is rawfed, and I have done elimination diets.
> I typed out her history for the new vet and was shocked to see she has been treated for her ears 6 time since she was 8 months(she is now 3). I let this go far too long.


Wow that stinks. So are you assuming it's dust mites while you wait for the allergy test results? Has your new vet made any other suggestions for you?

That's what I'm worried about - I don't want to just stop the itching without resolving the cause. But hey, our labrador was on prednisone most of his life and lived to be 14. He died because of heart disease, which he had since a pup. Nothing related to the pred. 

If the issue is dust mites in either case, I would assume meds are really the only good way to prevent itching.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The blood allergy tests helped us a ton here!

Hope this gets resolved for all these allergy dogs!


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow, that's an awesome vet! I'm glad she's working with you with Max's best intrest at heart. I'm hoping and praying they find the cause of his itchies for you!









And you never know, with Max gone away to camp for a while and your mind given time to think you might think of something or some common denominator in all of this. We're all here for you and Max!!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks all. I will keep you posted on Max's condition at the vet's!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

He hasn't even been there a full day and they already screwed up. They didn't put the Elizabethan collar on tight enough last night and he managed to get it off. I was too afraid to ask the vet how much damage he did to himself - he had the three spots with sutures from the skin biopsies, the hotspot that had JUST healed, and various other spots around his legs, hocks, etc. that were raw from him licking/chewing them just for seconds at a time before we could get to him and stop him! 










I am FREAKED out to see what he'll look like two weeks from now...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oh no
















I hope it's not too bad!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTOh no
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks - me too!!! Ignorance is bliss for me - otherwise I'll just stress myself out for the next two weeks.

Ugh and I just found out I may need surgery myself - THIS is why dealing with Max, on top of my own issues, is just too much for me right now. Maybe I need a therapist, not a vet! Haha! Where is the INSANE icon????


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

That's the one I use.









Hope all is ok with you. I emphathize...my senior kitty pretty much needs round the clock care and Lisa T is in the same boat with her Max. Just gotta take it one day at a time...


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks.







It really stinks that these poor animals have so many issues and can't tell us what's wrong!


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

i'm rooting for you and your pooch!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Vio79They are going to test his blood serum for allergies


Food and environmental I hope?


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LJsMom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Vio79They are going to test his blood serum for allergies
> ...


I would assume so. Vet thinks it's allergies and not some other underlying problem. She wants to start him on Atopica and then if that works she says that eliminates food allergy and would then send him home and have us wean him off. If the itching comes back, it means he's allergic to something in our home. This is also assuming skin biopsies and bloodwork don't give any answers. Can't believe there are still no skin biopsy results when they were sent in on the 29th. So frustrating. I want answers! And I miss my Maxie!

Good news is we got Give Your Dog a Bone today, so I'll have 2 weeks to read through it and come up with a feeding plan for when he gets home.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I suspect that you will see some results on the blood allergy test, if it's both food and env. Hope they don't take as long as the skin biopsy is taking!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is he doing at the vet? Can you visit him?


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowHow is he doing at the vet? Can you visit him?


Thanks for asking.







Though not able to tell much...

My husband emailed them this morning, and they called to tell him there has been no change. He's still itchy and wearing the lampshade. They said he seems to be in good spirits and is eating. The vet who is taking care of him is supposed to stop in this afternoon, so they left her a note to let us know if there are any test results. Skin biopsy should definitely be back - it's been 8+ business days since they were taken. Not sure how long blood serum takes or the thyroid, assuming they did send blood out to Hemopet like I requested.

They said we can come visit Max whenever, but we don't want to. We're afraid it will just upset us and get Max's hopes up that we're coming to take him home.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Status of Max*

Got off the phone with our vet a little bit ago. She said Max is finally starting to get better with the itching, and they were able to remove the lampshade today. But...our discussion left me feeling a little confused. Let me explain why.

She said the biopsy came back and basically said his skin issues are not fungal or topical.

Thyroid came back normal, though I'm wondering if she didn't send it to Hemopet. Seemed really quick considering they took blood last Thursday night.

Still waiting on blood serum...

She doesn't think the allergies are environmental, because he didn't improve with the change of location/surroundings. Apparently his itching was so bad, they put him back on predisone on top of the Atopica.

Yes his itching is better now, but how does she know it's not due to the combination of Atopica and pred? She's going to wean him off pred now and see what happens. She said he's been on the strict diet the whole time, as well. No idea what the strict diet is, exactly, but if she thinks it's working I assume we'll continue it at home and wean him off Atopica.

*BUT she did so many things at once, how does she know which one is actually responsible for the improvement?* Would being on this special diet for a little over 5 days have an impact? I know he responded quickly to the hypoallergenic diet several months ago, but that was in combination with Ivermectin shots. We have yet to try anything in isolation.

I don't know - I just hope Max isn't too upset while he's there, because I'm starting to think this is a waste. I'll have to put in a call to the holistic vet nearby, just in case.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

It's never a waste to have tests run to try to diagnois a problem...I'm sure Max is fine and will be happy to see you!!

Think it over, write down your questions/concerns and call back and schedule a time to go over these with the vet to help you get a clearer picture of what's going on. 

Hugs!!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

I'm disappointed about the pred. 

I would get copies of the results. My idea of normal and good are usually different from my regular vet's.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Status of Max*

well I'm glad he's feeling better, however your right,,what's stopping the itching?? the pred?? the atopica?? diet???

I'll put my money on the atopica, it's a powerful drug. One of my gsd's was on atopica for 3 months (for fistula's) he did well on it, 
only side effect I saw was a major coat blow,,he wasn't bald, but he was definately a short haired boy for awhile,,off the atopica the coat came in 'more' than before he lost it..

A friend of mine has a small poodle that has been itching itself to death,,she just went to the vet , they put her on pred and something "new" , she said the itching has stopped within 24 hours. Her itching is supposedly the result of a flea bite, apparantly the dog is highly allergic to flea bites, and tho no fleas can be found (at home or on the dog) they "think" she must have been bitten...

I will find out friday (when she works again) the name of this "new med" , her dog was put on and pass it on...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomI would get copies of the results. My idea of normal and good are usually different from my regular vet's.


Same here, how I evaluate and how a vet evaluates is usually different. 

Do ask for copies of *all* results. Get a full copy of the thyroid report too, and post the results here - there are different ways to look at thyroid tests.





> Originally Posted By: Vio79*BUT she did so many things at once, how does she know which one is actually responsible for the improvement?* Would being on this special diet for a little over 5 days have an impact?


Yes, change in diet over 5 days can make a big difference.

She doesn't know what made the difference, which is why she will back off each one slowly. She just wanted to stop the cycle, so she threw everything at it. Not very scientific, but perhaps humane, if he really was scratching himself raw. Sometimes you just have to stop the cycle. 

The Derm that we see said that she should just install dispensing machines in the front lobby for ketoconozaole and Atopica, since most dogs that she sees either needs one or the other, or both.

Atopica is expensive. If you are going to have to use this for a bit and taper off, see if you can get a script. The best deal around for the 100 mg capsules is the generic modified cyclosporin, 30 capsules, is at Walgreens, if your dog is on their health plan ($20 per year), the cost is $78. Otherwise, it's $182. For the 25mg, I'm told the best price is at Costco, but haven't priced it.

For long term management, I would see the holistic vet, particularly if you have a good recommendation from someone. Allopathic med is great for acute situations and when you need immediate care, but many of the longterm problems are best managed holistically.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

Costco has CYCLOSPORINE 25 MG SOFTGEL (IVX) (Generic Alternative) 

$33.25 (30 days)
$60.21 (60 days)
$88.27 (90 days)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*

Right there is an argument for a smaller dog!!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTRight there is an argument for a smaller dog!!


Haha, no kidding! Why did I ever think a GSD was a good idea?









Thanks for all of the feedback...LisaT I think you're right about her just trying everything to help Max as quickly as possible. She must have realized how miserable he was.

Once I get copies of everything, I'll post them here.

Our vet also said there is a liquid form of Atopica that's less expensive, so maybe we'll try that if he needs to be on it. I hope not though....and then we have his legs on top of it. Also don't think there is a Costco around here, but I can ask her about getting a regular script if that would save money by filling it at Target or WalMart or something like that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*

Walgreen's plan, I guarantee it's the cheapest if the dose is 100 mg!

I really hope that he doesn't have to be on it though.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Max's Lab Results*

OK, here goes. No idea what half these mean, and it looks like the blood panel results are there even though she said it would take two weeks.









*Skin Biopsy (Marshfield Labs in WI):*
No ectoparasites or fungal organisms seen. Flea bite hypersensitivity and food allergy, as well as atopy, are considerations. 

*Nelco Vet Allergy Panel Results (is this blood serum? Nelco vet):*

He tested negative to everything except the following:

_Weeds_
Lamb's quarter = low positive
English plaintain = High positive
Ragweed mix = low positive
Rabbitbush = high positive

_Trees_
Willow = high positive
Hickory = high positive
Mulberry = low positive
box elder/maple = low positive

_Molds_
stemphyllum = high positive
house dust = high positive

_Basic food panel_
milk = high positive

*Thyroid (they did NOT send to Hemopet: it went to Idexx Labs):
*

FREE T4-ed (ng/dL) = 1.7
FREE T4-ed (pmol/L) = 21.9
T4 = 1.3
cTSH = 0.05 

So all these were in the normal range, on the low side, and the cTSH was the very lowest value in the reference range.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79
> 
> _Molds_
> stemphyllum = high positive
> house dust = high positive


Correction....house dust is under the inhalant category.

So, we have been giving him all his pills in cheese (milk) and our house is super dusty, especially in winter. Wonder if it's as simple as eliminating dairy from his diet and putting him on something for dust?! No idea what the heck we could give him for dust allergies...and then he obviously suffers from seasonal allergies, which we knew from the summer.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Another thought...could it really be just milk? Because she said his itchiness did not improve after several days at the vet, and I'd assume the vet is fairly clean and dust-free in the kennels. But his itchiness is slowly subsiding on this new diet, which I'm guessing is dairy-free.

Need to talk to vet tomorrow and find out if these are in fact blood serum, since she told me Wednesday that those take two weeks and the records show they were faxed to the vet office on Tuesday. Unless she didn't see them....


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79
> 
> *Thyroid (they did NOT send to Hemopet: it went to Idexx Labs):
> *
> ...


Reference range:

FREE T4-ed (ng/dL) 0.7 - 3.7
FREE T4-ed (pmol/L) 9.0 - 47.4
T4 0.9 - 3.9

Did the vet suggest a trial of soloxine?


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMom
> 
> Reference range:
> 
> ...


No, because she felt his ranges were normal. I don't think she believes thyroid replacement hormones are necessary. Based on the blood serum results, if that's what I posted, I would agree with the vet...sounds like environmental/food allergy. I just hope it's as simple as eliminating milk products from his diet!!!!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

First of all, the cTSH might not be meaningful, it often doesn't work well in canines. However, let's just assume that it's correct. With TSH that low, your T4 should be sky-high since they have an inverse realationship. So if the TSH is accurate, then something is not working with the thyroid. Sure wish there was some info about the T3 and the TgAA. If your boy were young, those values would be too low. Even for a middle aged GSD, I would like to see those higher. When Max was put on meds, his free T4 was 1.3, but the rest of his panel was wacky. Too bad your vet didn't run the rest of the panel.

Looks like DHau went through Nelco (blood test it seems?): http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1114183&page=0&fpart=1

I would want to get a list of all foods tested too.

I'm pretty confident that this is not just all about milk products....


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Thanks for the links. If she calls today, I'll ask why they didn't send the blood to Hemopet for a full thyroid panel like I asked. I'll also ask about the balance in values.

They did the basic food panel: beef, chicken, lamb, pork, turkey, mixed fish, milk, eggs, corn, rice, soybean and wheat.

He showed [-] for all of those, which is "negative reaction to the allergen listed." And that was his result for all of the allergens except for the ones I listed earlier. Looks like they tested for New England pollens, Inhalant panel and basic food panel.

It would be nice if milk was the only culprit!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I wish they had tested for some other common dog food ingredients like flax, oats, barley, potato, brewer's yeast, kelp, and peas.

I hope it's just milk too!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

So, with the diet, that list of okay foods (beef, chicken, lamb, pork, turkey, mixed fish, eggs, corn, rice, soybean and wheat) are just candidates of what might and hopefully can be tolerated. Now you do a limited diet trial added them slowly into the diet to see if they are tolerated. For example, Indy was okay with lamb, but when she eats it, even lean pieces, her pancreas goes wonky. And the stuff that LJ's Mom posted, things like that have to be added slowly.

I'm not sure I would use any grains on an itchy dog.

It's not terrible that they didn't sent the thyroid to Hemopet, but it is terrible that she didn't run a panel. The benefit of hemopet isn't the actual testing (though it is cheaper usually), but the access to Jean Dodds and consulting with her. 

So how is he doing now? What is the plan?


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I would love to know how Max is doing.









We haven't heard from the vet since Wednesday on his status - she said she'd call Saturday but never did. We just got back from Vermont and called, but she had already stopped in and left for the day. So I guess I won't know anything until tomorrow, which is frustrating since we could have gotten him today if things were looking good. Assume that if he's doing better we'd continue the Atopica and then wean him off while continuing the same diet. Agree - would slowly introduce some other foods to see what happens and avoid grains. I hope he's not allergic to flax though. We just bought a huge tub of Nupro, which contains flax. Had planned to use it with the raw diet.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I keep wondering if he isn't something like zinc deficient......I saw the pics in the "show me" thread, and saw the callus on the elbow -- read somewhere that those might be associated with zinc issues. I dunno, just kinda grasping at straws here.

I really hope that things have calmed down enough so that this is manageable.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*
























Finally spoke with the vet. UGH.

We're going to bring Max home tonight. Unfortunately, I think we're bringing him home in much the same state he was when we brought him in (if not worse).

Apparently he was doing a little better but was never taken off prednisone. Atopica didn't seem to be working, so she suggests stopping that and continuing with the food trial. Unfortunately, Max (the smart boy) managed to somehow get out of his kennel and eat a bunch of dry kibble over the weekend, so we need to start from square one on diet. 

She didn't know if it was his little food escapade or something else, but he was not wearing the cone and managed to chew the heck out of his back end. She said he's leaving the front end alone, which is different than before.

So here is the course of treatment:

- derm caps for his skin
- prednisone continues
- pain meds for his elbows
- weekly injections for his elbows
- fish and sweet potato diet for 8 weeks
- revolution to cover heartwork preventive

I'm scared to see how he looks if he had free access to his body for chewing.









And I guess OUR next step is to get him to the holistic vet ASAP, since whatever our traditional vet did has not helped!

I am so frustrated I could cry. And poor Max had to suffer at a kennel for 11 days for NOTHING!!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I really have to wonder if it's not autoimmune. I would see the holistic vet and the Tuft's derm, or heck, road trip to Cornell!

I am sorry for the lack of progress.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI really have to wonder if it's not autoimmune. I would see the holistic vet and the Tuft's derm, or heck, road trip to Cornell!
> 
> I am sorry for the lack of progress.


Would that show up in any of the blood work?

We will try the holistic vet. If that doesn't work, then Tufts. I went to Ithaca College, so I guess I could do another visit. Just wondering how I'm going to manage this with a full time job (that I started in Sept).


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

We have an appointment w/Sharon Doolittle, the holistic vet recommended to us, on Feb 3 at 2 p.m.









I guess in the meantime we'll have to tolerate the normal routine of Max being itchy and us dealing with it. Hoping prednisone will at least help keep it at bay!!

Probably will work from home tomorrow just so Max has company.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Ugh we just got home with Max....he looks and smells AWFUL. His hot spots around his tail look so bad. He definitely must have been going at them for hours. He smells like fish or urine or something. And he's back to doing the whole humping thing he did for two weeks after he got back from training camp. NEVER AGAIN are we letting anyone board him anywhere!!

And all they're doing is feeding him Wellness white fish and sweet potato formula. They didn't give us any pred to use either, even though they want us to keep it up. We can cook him white fish and sweet potato, too.

I'm disgusted and disheartened. These may have been good vets years ago, but I am not bringing Max there again (except Thursday just to get his shot for his joints).

And the top of his nose where it meets the fur has no pigment in spots!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I have pictures of my Nina's pyoderma. Gross, but pretty sure I have them on photobucket. Would you like to see them? (aren't I lovely)


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

If it were autoimmune, it should've responded to the combination of both the Atopica and pred.

I wonder how much the pred is actually helping. If he gets home, and you don't think it's helping that much, I would ask the vet about the proper schedule to wean him off. Best not to stay on that if it's not really helping.

If there is still a thought of an immune system component, I would still try the doxy and niacinimide treatment, combined with ketoconazole. Nothing has been tried that is anti-yeast yet. I would do all of that before I would do the pred. There is no sure way to test for autoimmune conditions. Some conditions you can get a clue, but most are "rule out" situations. Some testing is actually very invasive.

What type of shot is he getting for his elbows? Is it adequan or steroids? 

Please don't use the Derm Caps. The regular DC are about 70% omega-6 fatty acids, and the extra strength ones are just over half. If you have the regular strength ones, absolutely do not use them. Compare the amounts of DHA and EPA (the omega 3's) in your Derm Caps, to a product like this: https://www.vitacost.com/Country-Life-Omega-3-Mood Look at the amount of fat per pill (1000 mg) and the total of DHA/EPA (600 mg), which gives 60% of omega-3's in that supplement, whereas regular Derm Caps have only 7% total DHA/EPA. Granted the DC have a touch of GLA, but only brings the good oils to 10%. If you are using the extra strength, the good oils only account for 17% of the product. You are introducing too many bad oils when you use Derm Caps.

I would be adding about 800 IU of vitamin E, a product like Twinlab's Super E complex, or a better product is this one: http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-E-Gems-Elite-Natural-Vitamin-E-400-IU-240-Soft-Gels/12908?at=0

I would consider adding a (human) multi-vitamin; dog multi's have too many added flavorings.

I might consider adding a preventic collar.

I might consider some oregano oil, something anti-bacterial and anti-fungal that does not appear to be immune stimulating from my experience with it.

BUT, the good news is that you are going to a holistic vet that can help you with this.

In the mean time, I would be very curious, if you gave the herb scullcap for a few days, if that would help with the itching. This is what I use when my Max starts going crazy with his annual hotspot. If I catch it right away, and start using this herb, it does not turn into a hotspot, only an irritation. There is something about the nervous system that goes into overdrive in certain areas, and I believe that this causes them to itch and to bite. Since no other cause has been found for your Max, I would just be very curious if this could help your boy as much as it does mine.

I am so sorry that he is such a mess right now. Your poor boy


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79They didn't give us any pred to use either, even though they want us to keep it up.


The vet didn't wean him off the pred? Normally it is decreased slowly.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

OK, a lot of info there. No, they forgot to give us pred...even though they want us to continue it.

We actually don't have derm caps - only the liquid anti-inflammatory for his legs. 

Adequan shots for his legs...

I could try skullcap...I guess if we're giving him Wellness, he doesn't need the added vitamin for now.

He also just peed all over the place, which is so unlike him. Not sure if it's excitement, drinking too much or whatever. He peed a long time when we got home, then again once we got home and let him in the yard, and then less than an hour later he did a full pee in the house - so I let him in the yard and he peed for a very long time.

I REALLY REALLY wish we'd never left him at the vet. What a mess!!!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

It's probably the pred that is making him pee, it will take awhile for that to subside. If you continue to give pred, it mostly likely will stay that way while he's on the drug.

What anti-inflammatory is he being given?


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Forgot to add, with the scullcap, if you give 2 capsules in the morning, and 2 in the evening, you should know by the end of day two whether or not it is making a difference. You won't want to continue with that dose longterm, only because it will really relax the muscles and start giving loose stools probably, but initially, that's the dose I use for my Max.

I'm also thinking that since this is taking awhile to get him better, that it might be time to start dealing with the joints, no sense in keeping him in pain. Because of all of his issues, I would give either the canine Cosequin extra strength capsules (no chewables), or if you shop at Costco, or can find it cheaper, give the human supplement Cosamin. This is a high quality glucosamine and chondroitin product to help him with his joints. There are lots of other products that are cheaper and you can try later, but until the itching gets figured out, I wouldn't go with other products.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Well he's been on pred before and not had this issue, but maybe it's that in combo with the excitement. Amazingly enough, he has not been itchy besides trying to get at the various hotspots he already has. Who knows if that's Atopica finally kicking in, prednisone, change in diet or what. Especially since he went off his diet when he got into the other food. Guess we'll see how it goes with diet alone, because I don't plan to pick up more prednisone - or is it bad to just stop him cold turkey?? We do have leftover temaril-P we could use instead.

What he's on for his legs is Metacam, a non-steroid anti-inflammatory. I guess that and the adequan are working because his limp is gone too.

Now if I could figure out a way to get this urine smell away. Will have to go get some of that special stuff for cleaning when potty-training puppies!

If he's on fish and sweet potato diet, can we use other fish besides white? I'm thinking like dehydrated salmon for treats (if white doesn't exist).

I guess we can pick up the skullcap when we're at vitamin shop for our other vitamins and stuff.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

The Derm that I see would reach first for the atopica over the pred, for whatever that is worth. 

If the adequan is kicking in, hopefully you can back off on the Metacam, with any luck.

Your guess is as good as mine about the urine smell!

White fish is different than salmon, depends on how strict this diet is supposed to be. A lot of fish diets already contain salmon - do you have the label to read?

The good thing about the scullcap, is that you will know very quickly. That's pretty cool that he does not seem to be itching as he was. So just maybe, you have a clue. It's hard to believe that with both the atopica and pred, that it didn't make a difference. I guess it did something, but it will take awhile to figure out what!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Here's the ingredients. It has a lot of random stuff so who knows! And I'm pretty sure she wanted us to stick with white fish. Oh well. I have to get vitamins soon, so I'll definitely try that skullcap, thanks! I'll hold off on the other stuff to be safe and wait to see what the holistic lady says. 

whitefish, fish broth, ground barley, sweet potatoes, carrots, canola oil, ground flaxseed, carrageenan, guar gum, potassium chloride, salt, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, riboflavin supplement, sodium selenate, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin b-12 supplement, potassium iodide, biotin, vitamin d-3 supplement


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

If Max starts getting frequent large stools, it might be the barley....seems like there is a white fish and potato food only out there somewhere.....

If you decide to try the vit E, it's important that you get one that contains mixed tocopherols if there is an autoimmune condition. I know you are going to hold off for now, but I just wanted to make sure that you knew.

Yeah, hold off on the derm caps too. This food has flax, which off course might be an allergen, but if it's not, then that will provide some good fatty acids.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI have pictures of my Nina's pyoderma. Gross, but pretty sure I have them on photobucket. Would you like to see them? (aren't I lovely)


I'd like to see them if that's ok.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I'd like to see the photos too - sorry, I meant to respond to that and forgot!!









LisaT - I'll look around tomorrow for a fish/sweet potato food without the barley. Max is definitely pooping a lot more and it's loose - sometimes completely liquid. I miss the raw diet poops!







My husband is going to try and pick up some tilapia and sweet potato at the store, so we can at least feed him some raw/non-canned food. Raw fish, cooked potato.

This morning he peed a lot, and then I took him out again about 2 hours later (working from home) and he peed again and was then trying to pee with nothing coming out. He's also humping the air a lot and licking that area. Hoping this will subside in a couple of days. The humping happened after he got back from training, and it went away on its own. At least he made it through the night without issues.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Poor Max, what a troubled doggie. Vio, I admire all the effort you are putting in for helping Max. This is already a very informative thread. Best wishes to you and Max; I hope you find the culprit soon.

Have you tried just homecooking for him? I wonder if eliminating all the unnecessaries would make a difference...


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: DianaMPoor Max, what a troubled doggie. Vio, I admire all the effort you are putting in for helping Max. This is already a very informative thread. Best wishes to you and Max; I hope you find the culprit soon.
> 
> Have you tried just homecooking for him? I wonder if eliminating all the unnecessaries would make a difference...


Yeah I feel bad for him being put through all of this. Maybe once we have him on this bland diet for a while and stop all the vet appointments and treatments, he'll improve. Fingers crossed. I do hope that all the advice from the members of this board can help other people as well! I know for a fact I'm not the only one who has a dog with allergies. And maybe soon I can be part of the crowd who is just _managing _allergies instead of trying to determine what they are!









We would like to homecook ideally, but we have several days' worth of the canned food that we'll use up first - and we'll try giving him whitefish and sweet potato with the Nupro vitamins. Also will see about premade options with fewer ingredients, as LisaT suggested. I checked the ingredients and Nupro seems to be okay and without artificial flavoring of any sort. (I know LisaT had expressed concern about using vitamins for dogs.)

At least Max has been quiet since this morning - no attempts at chewing/itching and has not asked to go pee or poop. If I only knew what made the itching go away: Atopica, Pred, or food. Or all, or a combination of them.







Hope it wasn't Atopica, since we've stopped that. That's the only drawback to putting Max on so many things at once - they stopped most of the itching but we have no idea which is responsible. Time to find out...


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

It could also be the no beef?

The Nupro has all sorts of things that Max might react to: http://www.nuprosupplements.com/ingredients.htm , (liver, flax, yeast) so I would be careful with it. I would wait until you have at least a couple of weeks without that terrible itching!

Hope the peeing gets better!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTIt could also be the no beef?
> 
> The Nupro has all sorts of things that Max might react to: http://www.nuprosupplements.com/ingredients.htm , (liver, flax, yeast) so I would be careful with it. I would wait until you have at least a couple of weeks without that terrible itching!
> 
> Hope the peeing gets better!


Hmm...overlooked the liver. Our vet was giving him some sort of supplement when she give him the home-cooked meals and I told her about Nupro. She checked with her holistic vet friend who said we were fine with that. Maybe I'll hold off on Nupro and just add a bit of Ester C to his meals, at least until we visit the local holistic vet. I'm sure he's been very stressed and could use the boost!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I think that sounds like a good plan!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Max Update*

It's been a little over a week since we brought Max home from the vet. His hotspots were healing well when he somehow got the e-collar off his head while we were at work and ripped open all the scabs. I believe that happened this past Tuesday. We thought it was the worst thing that could have happened, but it turns out it may have been a blessing in disguise. I did NOT like how they looked before, and now they're healing much more nicely. NO idea what the vet did to make them look so bad.









Anyway, we have him on three cans of the Wellness white fish and sweet potato in the morning and then about a pound of raw white fish, a can of sardines, and a sweet potato for dinners. He poops a lot but his poops are small and solid. I'm betting it's that little bit of raw that helps.









He's on Prednisone every other day now and gets itchy, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was before. Once his hotspots are completely healed, we'll be able to tell much better how itchy he really is. Though I'm thinking with no prednisone at all, he'd be pretty itchy.

We also see the holistic vet next Wednesday, and I'm hoping she can shed some light on his issues!

That's the latest over here! Will check in again after our appointment next week.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*

Oh and another thing is that I'm leaving my job (as of the 12th). I'm hoping that my being at home more will help Max, just in case some of his issues are due to separation anxiety. I am NOT doing it for the sole benefit of Max though. Don't get me wrong. In fact, it's probably stupid to lose one income with the money we're spending on him, but sometimes you just need to take action.

Hoping to do some volunteer work and freelance writing in the meantime, while I sort myself out.


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

I was just wondering how Max was doing! 

Hope the visit to the hollistic vet goes well, keep us posted on how that goes. I'm sure Max will love having you at home!!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max Update*

I was just thinking about Max yesterday too.

If this vet does acupuncture, I think it would really help him - it's great for allergies and digestion issues.

We do expect a full report, you have tried so much with your boy!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*

So glad our appointment is tomorrow. Even though we have him on Pred every other day, along with the restricted diet, his itching seems to be getting worse. He was pretty bad this morning, and he got his Pred last night with dinner! And he's going at spots that are nowhere near the healing hotspots...though they are some of the spots he used to go at when he was really bad.

Definitely getting frustrated again. Red bumps coming back, too...I know it's only been 2 weeks on the diet, but I'd think there would be some improvement, especially with the Pred.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

Make sure you bring everything that you were told to bring to the appointment tomorrow!


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

Poor Mr. Max!! I'm hoping and praying the vet can help!!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomMake sure you bring everything that you were told to bring to the appointment tomorrow!


Was wondering about that. Do we really need to physically bring the meds, or can we just bring a list of them? Or is that something they test using their alternative methods? We plan to bring the food we were told to feed him, but just were going to show them the list of meds from our various vet invoices.


Thanks for the thoughts, aubie!


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

You need to physically bring with you EVERYTHING that goes into the dog. All food, all supplements, all meds - EVERYTHING. She's not forgiving - so don't mess up!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomYou need to physically bring with you EVERYTHING that goes into the dog. All food, all supplements, all meds - EVERYTHING. She's not forgiving - so don't mess up!


I'm hoping she's mellowed out since you worked with her.







I do know that if her suggestions seem crazy or the costs start getting out of control, we'll have to put the brakes on it.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max Update*

Good luck, keep us posted.


----------



## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

*Re: Max Update*

Hi Vio79,

Allergies are really tough and I've about thrown my hands up in the air over my Niko not improving. He is still having issues and I'm seeing one of the holistic vet's I've gone too on Friday. He is 7 and has many of the issues your boy has. I've been thru alot of what you are and have been going thru. I've been to my regular vet (who is great - very traditional, but great diagnostic wise), Tufts Dermatology in Walpole, did see Sharon Doolittle too. 

We did do the allergy shots for a year and I did see some improvement, but Niko was freaking out over the needle and it was really difficult to give a shot to him. The vet tech's were frustrated and I stopped. I raw fed for 4 years, did elimination diets, tried every supplement and changed all kinds of products I used around the house. I keep trying, but do feel like sitting down and crying (and I have) at times. 

Niko has inhallant allergies... dust, mold, all bugs, some grasses and I did do the blood panel for food and he has supposed issues with rice, potatoe, peas, pork. It's hard and I'm thinking about going back to raw feeding. Bravo is great, but was very pricey for me feeding 105lb and a 70lber. 

Please let us know how your visit with Dr. Doolittle goes. I saw her for a few months with Niko and one of my other dogs who has now passed. 

Feel free to email... I've been in your shoes and still am to some degree. 

Tanja


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*

Hey Tanja - Sorry to hear you're having the same issues with Niko. It is definitely frustrating and you've been going through it a lot longer than us! I don't know how you do it...

Onto our appointment, and another $407 later....

Dr. Doolittle did her Applied Kinesiology schtick and, to be honest, I don't know if I believe it. She showed me the difference between something that works with him and something that doesn't, and it just felt like she was pushing harder on my arm. Anyway, this is what she said:

- all of his organs are functioning at 5-7 (out of 10), which is not good.
- his liver and kidney function were especially bad at 5/6.
- his body will need 7-13 months to "heal itself" and there's no guarantee it will even work.

The way she talked, it was like he's in dire straits and we came to her just in time!

This is what she wants us to do:

- transition him to a cooked/commercial diet, with higher percentage of commercial food ("his body can't handle raw right now")
- foods that work with him are Canidae beef & ocean fish canned food, Bravo venison (cooked - why only that brand, I don't know), Real Meat venison treats (again, only that brand?), sardines, several white fishes, wild salmon, pumpkin, and a handful of fruits/veggies. She also said we can give him Raw marrow, knuckle and rib bones.
- in addition, a bunch of supplements to help heal him
- stop the Ester C and Glucosamine and continue with the prednisolone, metacam and adequin.

Just the supplements will be $100/mo. Not to mention the food, since he's 93 lbs and the meds. Metacam is $85 per 100mL and he gets 4.5mL/day. So, about $100/mo for that...and then the adequan shots! Prednisolone is the only inexpensive thing.

They gave us enough of the supplements to last us until the next session, which is in 3.5 weeks. We can't afford to be bringing him down there every three weeks either.

I'm really disheartened at this point, because now we'll be on one salary and definitely can't afford to keep this up for 13 months, without even the guarantee that he'll improve.









I mean she says we can't feed him Nature's Variety venison formula because of the herbs and stuff they put in it, yet the Canidae is okay? I just looked up the ingredients and it has all the stuff she said wouldn't be good for him (i.e. rosemary extract, sage extract, and other supplements).

Part of me just wants to keep him on prednisolone every day and screw her stuff, because she contradicts herself! Nature's Variety made her want to vomit when she checked out the freezer (a room away from us) yet the Canidae stuff is okay, even with many of the same ingredients? Granted Nature's Variety patties have fruits and veggies, but she specifically mentioned rosemary extract as one ingredient he shouldn't have.

Sorry for the rambling - I'm just at a loss.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

Did she make Max wear a muzzle?


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomDid she make Max wear a muzzle?


No - did she do that to you?

I thought personality-wise, she was okay, but I could tell when I kept asking if we had to cook fruits and veggies, she definitely copped an attitude and said "cook everything." Um, how do you cook oranges and kiwi?

And then she rushed out for her next appointment and said her assistant could help us and is cheaper per hour.

Then the girl at the front desk said we didn't have to cook the fruits/veggies so long as we puree them. She suggested dumping everything into a "stew" for the week.

Joanne, I may have to agree with you on her...


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

OK sorry I haven't read the whole thing you just posted but I see a med that concerns me.The Metacam if I am correct has a high kidney damage side effect.If I am correct I would not want to be using this unless I absolutely had to and I would have bloodwork done every 2 weeks at least.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Max Update*

I'm not sure if I mentioned the metacam previously, but, I used the human form of metacam which is meloxicalm on Sami at one point, 
It comes in 7.5 mg and she got 1/2 of that per day (i'm having a brain freeze on the ratio to weight) she weighed 75 lbs.. The savings were unreal,,,I like you, was doing the 100 ml liquid which didn't last long,,and paid a bundle...the pills are dirt cheap, as in around 10 bucks for more than month's worth at walmart. 

If you can get your vet to write you scrip for it, it is soooo much cheaper and just as effective,,I had Sami on it for almost 3 years with no problems at all..

Sorry I have no advice on Max's issues, only hope you can find some relief(


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LJsMomDid she make Max wear a muzzle?
> ...


I guess she's only afraid of my GSD.


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79
> 
> Dr. Doolittle did her Applied Kinesiology schtick and, to be honest, I don't know if I believe it. She showed me the difference between something that works with him and something that doesn't, and it just felt like she was pushing harder on my arm. Anyway, this is what she said:
> 
> ...


If she knows what she is talking about this concerns me with the metacam.Just thought I would throw it out there.I had no clue of what the med COULD do until my cat had kidney problem after being on it for pain control after her accident with a truck.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> If she knows what she is talking about this concerns me with the metacam.Just thought I would throw it out there.I had no clue of what the med COULD do until my cat had kidney problem after being on it for pain control after her accident with a truck.


I looked up Metacam and you're right. So she's contradicting herself in more ways than one!









I'll call tomorrow and ask about that, as well as what she said about Canidae/Bravo being okay but Nature's Variety NOT being okay.

I can't believe she would lead us to believe that his kidneys/liver are so bad but then suggests staying on Metacam when it can impact the kidneys.

I am officially







OFF.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMom
> I guess she's only afraid of my GSD.


Sorry...did something happen at the beginning of the visit? I guess Max walked in and was super-friendly, so maybe they didn't think of it? In the exam room, all Max did was try and get to the food...typical Max. He'd be in heaven if he could just eat all day.









All I know is whenever it is we have to put him down, he's going to eat like a king beforehand.


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

I hope I'm over reacting but I just know what I went through all summer with my cat and if I can help one person to not have to worry I will.

I would consult the regular vet on the metacam unless of course she prescribed it.How long has it been since he had his kidney levels checked and how long has he been on the metacam?


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI hope I'm over reacting but I just know what I went through all summer with my cat and if I can help one person to not have to worry I will.
> 
> I would consult the regular vet on the metacam unless of course she prescribed it.How long has it been since he had his kidney levels checked and how long has he been on the metacam?


Our regular vet prescribed it, along with the adequan, because of Max's bad limp (elbow dysplasia in both front legs and arthritis in both knees). The only time he's gotten them checked since we adopted him was with the dermatologist, who did a standard blood panel on 12/21/09:

According to that, his BUN was 14 mg/dL and his creatinine was .9 mg/dL. I guess that's a little low, but the BUN was normal. He started the Metacam probably two weeks ago....


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

I would redue that bloodwork. Has the vet mentioned redueing it due to the problems I mentioned?
When my animals need pain relief now the vet uses buprenorphine,it is easier on the kidneys.I refuse to use the metacam now,they tried prescribing it to another cat for urinary problems(different vet) and I said NO WAY.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*

No, our vet hasn't mentioned redoing blood work, because our vet didn't do it to begin with - the dermatologist did the blood panel as a precaution for knocking Max out (which she didn't end up doing). 

I'll call our regular vet tomorrow about that and then the holistic vet about the kidneys/Metacam and the food.


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max Update*

The good thing is you have a starting point on the Bun/Creatine levels.I didn't with my cat so I have no clue if it was the meds or her injury or old age but I'm not taking a chance with the rest of my animals.

Good Luck,what ever happens your tried your hardest to get him healthy.I'd be curled up in a corner pulling my hair out by now if it were me..


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max Update*



> Originally Posted By: AllieGThe good thing is you have a starting point on the Bun/Creatine levels.I didn't with my cat so I have no clue if it was the meds or her injury or old age but I'm not taking a chance with the rest of my animals.
> 
> Good Luck,what ever happens your tried your hardest to get him healthy.I'd be curled up in a corner pulling my hair out by now if it were me..


Thanks







I pretty much am. He's super itchy tonight.

His iron levels are really high (MCHC), but both our regular vet and the holistic vet shrugged it off. 

Though according to what I read, his BUN/creatanine levels are okay being low end of normal.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max Update*

It's also possible that this vet is good at kinesiology, but not good at the other stuff. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

I agree that to get him relatively "healthy", it will take a long time. BUT, there should be a way to get him more comfortable, with steady improvement.


----------



## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

*Re: Max Update*

Hi again Vio79

My appt's with her were just about the same as your appt. I was apprehensive about AK too since she was the first holistic vet I saw. Even now I'm not sure if it works... I think it must because others I've talked to have seen results. I really didn't see any with Niko and I really didn't even want to post that because I don't want to discourage you anymore. I know that feeling all too well.









I only saw Dr. Doolittle for 3-4 months, but it was an hour drive, during work hours and honestly... I just couldn't afford it and knew I couldn't continue on for a year waiting for results... I would have lost my house. The supplements were what was so expensive and with Niko weighing 105lbs and feeding only certain brands of foods. I was also cooking the foods too. 

Pred and Temaril-P work well for Niko, but I'm really trying to stay away from pred. He has been on it alot lately... very low dose for an ear hematoma which he now has another in the other ear.







I've never had a problem with that ear so I too feel like "oh my god, what's next). I may have posted this in another thread... but Niko just had a big unexpected surgery in early Dec. So, just trying to get thru that and now another hematoma. It's not easy, but I encourage you to try the options out there and maybe Dr. Doolittle can help Max. 

I also did Adequan injections on my other dog. They were expensive, but are cheaper if you can do them yourself. My vet down here (close to Boston) was charging me almost $50 a shot and I did go to a friend's vet in NH and he sold me a bottle of Adequan for $50 and I did do the shots with a nurse friend of mine. That is another option if you can give the shot or have someone who is experienced in giving it. Also, gave my other dog - Stormy (he is the lighter dog in my avatar) Metacam and a bunch of other things and know that is expensive too. 

I've also ordered some things online which can be cheaper. Niko was just on Clavamox for 3 weeks due to a throat abscess and the vet hospital was charging me $5 a pill... he needed 4 a day. That's $20 a day for 3 weeks. I just spent 3K on his surgery and found Clavamox online for $1.49 a pill.... I was thrilled. I used this place...

http://www.discountpetdrugs.com/mebyme.html

They sell Metacam for $69 and Adequan.

I'm seeing a holistic vet tomorrow morning with Niko... I did see her before too and liked her and her prices were reasonable. She is holistic and traditional... which I do think you need the best of both worlds with some of these difficult cases.







She also does AK and other stuff. 

Please keep us posted on how it's going with Max and hang in there.... I'm in the same boat... and there are many others here who are too! We all need paddles!









Tanja


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79Skin Biopsy (Marshfield Labs in WI):*Flea bite hypersensitivity*





> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAHer itching is supposedly the result of a flea bite, *apparantly the dog is highly allergic to flea bites*, and tho no fleas can be found (at home or on the dog) they "think" she must have been bitten...I will find out friday (when she works again) the name of this "new med", her dog was put on and pass it on...


Hi. What caught my attention were the above facts. Flea bite allergy is very real and dogs can be very sensitive to just a single bite. You don't have to have a flea problem for the dog to suffer. 

My dog Penny itched for 4 yrs- we did ivermectin, thyroid testing, special shampoo, special diets, special vet visits, blood allergy testing, allergy shots and various supplements and nothing ever really worked. 

Finally our new vet suggested we try comfortis for flea allergy dermatitis even though she was on advantix with no fleas to be found and it worked- something finally worked!! Other here have had the same experience as us and I would be curious to know what med the dog above was given for the FAD. . .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1175287&page=1#Post1175287

And the adequan you're giving, as Tanja mentioned it is much cheaper to buy it yourself if you're not already doing that. Or ask your vet to price match. Plus there is a $20 mail in rebate you can fill out for. 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cach...o-tchGSBdZCDo3Q


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Status of Max*

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions. I appreciate them!

Tanja, let us know how your visit to the holistic vet goes (where is that one?).

Natalie...I will ask our vet about Comfortis, though the biopsy results mentioned flea bite hypersensitivity as one of several things it could be, which also included food allergy and atopy. I'll have to go back and read my results in this thread to see what the blood serum results showed.

I think at this point, given the cost of what Sharon Doolittle is suggesting, we may just do our best with Nupro and a healthy diet, keep him on prednisolone, and see how he responds to that. Maybe with me being home and him not going through the stress of seeing vets, he'll improve. Not sure I want to put tons of stock in the AK, because it seems contradictory and limiting. Max may be "compromised" according to Dr. Doolittle, but his spirits seem up to me. And his blood work can't be THAT wrong.

As for Adequan, we are giving him the injections ourselves (he gets one tonight). 

It's just with me leaving my job, we cannot afford Dr. Doolittle's plan, or shuttling Max an hour back and forth to her appointments to pay $170/hour. Plenty of animals live happy, healthy lives without holistic intervention. And we're no closer to knowing the root of his problems, either.

Maybe with a healthy diet and some R&R, he'll improve. You figure he's been in and out of vets/surgeries/kennels since we got him 9 months ago. That can't be good for a dog....


----------



## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

*Re: Status of Max*

I understand completely about being able to afford it all. I've tried everything and have thought about going back to allergy shots if Tufts will make the serum based on Niko's tests from 3 years ago. Just not sure I could afford all the testing again. 

I haven't tried the Comfortis yet... Natalie has had great results and it is in my thoughts. I'm just a little nervous to give Niko something whereas he just had surgery and all. It's worth trying and I'm sure I will at some point.

The vet I'm seeing tomorrow is Regina Downey - Exeter, NH She practices traditionally and holistically... Her visits haven't been crazy expensive... the highest I paid was maybe $150... that might have been the first visit. I'll know more tomorrow.









Best of luck for you and Max!

Tanja


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*

Against what I thought would work, I've seen dogs get MUCH better on the Comfortis, which is why natalie *really* wants you to try it. I concur.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTAgainst what I thought would work, I've seen dogs get MUCH better on the Comfortis, which is why natalie *really* wants you to try it. I concur.


Waiting for my vet to call back - when she does, I'll ask about it!









Though if Max is on Comfortis, does that mean he should NOT be on Frontline or Revolution? Just thinking down the line, in spring, when we'd start him back up on Revolution or a combo of Frontline (or similar) and Interceptor.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79*Thyroid (they did NOT send to Hemopet: it went to Idexx Labs):
> *
> 
> FREE T4-ed (ng/dL) = 1.7
> ...


Would these results be considered "low normal"? Would it be worthwhile to at least try medication?


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Joanne - our vet seems to think it's normal. Sharon Doolittle was mad that they didn't send it to Hemopet and said she'd tell us if she thought a full panel was necessary - she didn't. 

I just talked to our vet. She said we're okay to stop the Metacam. When I asked about Comfortis, she said she'd rather us try valerian root first (use the human form/dosage), and if that doesn't work she'll have us try the Comfortis.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTI've seen dogs get MUCH better on the Comfortis, which is why natalie *really* wants you to try it.


I am probably annoying the board with my suggestions to try it, but seriously after seeing the difference it has made with Penny after all our struggles I will continue to suggest it for any dog itching to at least try, _especially_ if the dog has tested for a known flea bite allergy. It's a simple solution if it works, and if it doesn't then you could continue down the list of other options. 

Vio I don't know how valerian root would help flea bite allergy other than having an overall calming effect, but I do not know a lot about valerian root. Why did the vet suggest this? It is always nice to ask the vet and have their approval and opinion on something, but if you really wanted to try the comfortis just tell him/her, don't ask. 

As far as combining products the label says it has been used successfully without complication with topical flea tick preventions although I am not promoting you combine the products. I would use the comfortis for fleas, something for ticks if you have ticks which I don't have so I use nothing for this and a separate med for the heartworms, interceptor is a great choice.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

I agree with Natalie.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

This might be worth reading.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/HowtoAnayzeYourDogsThyroidTestResults.pdf


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Status of Max*

I thought that prednisone and NSAIDs weren't supposed to be combined? When Niko had cancer, the vet put him on prednisone and we had to stop the Metacam.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79I just talked to our vet. She said we're okay to stop the Metacam. When I asked about Comfortis, she said she'd rather us try valerian root first (use the human form/dosage), and if that doesn't work she'll have us try the Comfortis.


That's just idioitic, they don't do the same thing.

And for calming, I would go for a combo of Valerian and scullcap.

eta: there is evidence that flea bite sensitivity may be a huge issue here, why is no one following up on this????


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Status of Max*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomThis might be worth reading.
> 
> http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/HowtoAnayzeYourDogsThyroidTestResults.pdf


Based on this, Max could potentially benefit from Soloxine - but they didn't run the full panel like I asked. And I really don't want to have to pay an additional $125 for them to do what I'd asked for in the first place.

As for the Comfortis, she said she put a note in that we could get it if we wanted - she was just trying to avoid different drugs.

I read about Metacam interactions and it says to consult with your vet before using it with prednisolone - so I guess it can be done under supervision.

Thank you for all the information. I really need to get the guts to stand up to her and get what I want.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Wow, if I were both of you, I'd get in the car and head to Cornell. Not that they can solve things that are potentially only manageable and not fixable, which may be something to consider (not that you want to). I just see all the money going from place to place, and doing one last ditch effort in terms of finding that answer, if the derm service at Tuft's is not up to par - which I have no information on either way. I have no patience with waiting on diagnoses anymore, having done it for my own self and learning that I needed to do what had to be done because I was the only one who was truly impacted by my problem. 

I am pretty sure no pred and NSAID too...

Frustration not directed at you all, just gah, if I were itchy that long, I'd be dangerous!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

*sigh*

I just wish I could trust my vet. This IS frustrating. Maybe Tufts derm is decent - never had anything to do with them before. But after spending over $1000 at one derm, I'm leery of trying another.

Guess I can just tell the vet we want to start Comfortis NOW. We'll stop the Metacam since the site said there could be interactions.


----------



## Fluffypants (Aug 31, 2003)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

I went to Tufts in Walpole and saw Dr. Lowell Ackerman... he is good and is somewhat considered the "god" of dermatology... he teaches and has written many books. He isn't practicing there anymore and I think he might be only teaching. There is another derm... a woman... I read her profile and she looks good... also teaches.

My experience in Walpole for Niko was scrapings for mites, treat with Revolution even though scrapings were negative for mites. Intradermal skin testing along with blood testing for inhallant allergies only. They cross reference the two for a more accurate assesment in order to make the serum for allergy shots. They prescribed Temaril-P which Dr. Ackerman said that the small amount of pred and antihistimine that is in the Temaril-P seems to work much better than an antihistimine alone. Bathing was another recommendation. Resichlor is topical type of creme rinse that you can put on the dogs feet, stomach, legs etc... you leave it on and it helps with the itching and I think any bacteria. I have it here. A great shampoo that is fairly new is made by Douxo... Entirely Pets sells them.

I think you are in the worcester area and I'm closer to Boston... so we are pretty far apart. I think Walpole might be far for you and I know they are not cheap either. 

http://tuftsvets.org/derma_allergies.php

From what I understand, if pred or Temaril-P helps... it usually is inhallant allergies. Although, your boy has been thru alot in the past several months.

I know the money thing... I've spent so much... and will spend another $200 this morning at the holistic vet and if that doesn't help will end up back to see the derm at Walpole. I don't have the $ for all of this either... I'm glad I have a home equity line... it's turned into the "PET" line. LOL

If you decide to try another derm... get your records from the derm you saw. Since it was recent, maybe you won't need as many tests etc. It's not going to hurt to try the Comfortis... I probably will too. 

On another note.. I can remember one of the vet's I saw switched my dog Stormy over from pred to Metacam... I think you might be able to do this with ONLY Metacam because the ingred are slightly different. I do know that we couldn't do this with Previcox... I had to wait several days to switch Stormy over. Don't quote me on the Metacam switch because I'm not 100% on this one.

I'll post back later after my holistic/traditional visit this morning with Dr. Downey. 

Tanja


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Tanja, def keep us posted on how it goes at the derm!

We've done Temaril-P, which did seem to work for his summer/fall allergies. But what's been happening since end of Sept/Oct wasn't helped by Temaril-P at all, which is why we switched to Prednisolone. And we did to the whole scraping, Ivermectin treatment.

I'm really irritated and not sure we should have listened to Sharon about changing Max's diet. He was itchy with the whitefish and sweet potato, but I swear just 1.5 days after adding venison back in, he's even itchier (or it could be that it was his non-pred day). But I hate waffling back and forth between foods and stuff and being so inconsistent with what we're putting into his body. Based on the foods that "tested well" with Max, we are going to try Natural Balance Venison and Sweet potato with some Bravo venison and canned venison (and the occasional beef treat) and then mixing in some green beans. Will probably continue to throw in some white fish once in a while, to switch it up. Not sure if we should stick with that for an extended period of time to see if it works. We've obviously tainted the whitefish diet he was on for three weeks and would have to start over with that - and we can't afford it. Wellness cans are like $50 for 24, which would only last Max 4 days! Not to mention the cost of fresh fish....

I still don't know if I believe it's a food allergy. Just seems weird that out of nowhere, he got so itchy and it coincided with him coming back from a two-week training camp in the woods of New Hampshire. I'm praying he's got hypersensitivity to fleas and that Comfortis will work!

If that doesn't work, guess I'll demand they send some blood work to Hemopet...I wish they would eat the cost since I already paid $100 for a thyroid panel, which they didn't send to Hemopet like I requested. 

I feel like such a bad dog owner - just don't know what's the right thing to do!!!


----------



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Your NOT a bad dog owner.A bad dog owner would have given up and you refuse to...Stay positive...


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79I feel like such a bad dog owner - just don't know what's the right thing to do!!!


It's okay to feel frustrated and don't we wish the dogs could talk. But don't feel like a bad owner as a bad owner simply wouldn't care enough to do anything and you are being proactive, just without yet finding a solution. I sympathize and hope you do find a solution.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

OH. MY. GOD.

So the reason my vet suggested valerian root is because she thought we wanted to treat his anxiety with some medicine that starts with a C but is not Comfortis (even though when I asked for Comfortis she corrected my pronunciation, so she knew what I asked for). The vet tech was like, "you know Comfortis is for fleas, not anxiety?" I was like, "YES, I never said we wanted to treat him for anxiety!"

Wow, this vet's office is starting to really frustrate me.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

UGH.







Good grief.

Have you thought much about changing vets? Maybe to one that does traditional and holistic plus some other goodies? Maybe one that would be open to treating a low normal thyroid?

You're trying so hard to help Max; try not to get too discouraged.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*



> Originally Posted By: LJsMomUGH.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I may give your vet in Bolton a call. Since I'll be unemployed, I could drive Max there any time, not just nights and weekends.

Though we'll try the Comfortis first. Our vet has it in stock, so I'll just drop by tonight or tomorrow to pick it up, along with the Prednisolone.

Ha, my coworker just stopped by and was like, "We have our dog on Merrick Cowboy Cookout and highly recommend it." I get different recommendations from everyone and it's driving me crazy!!!!!

I need to go back and read the food topics...


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Good god, you're go through a merry-go-round this time!! 

I agree, I'd find a new vet. Get Max's file and walk out. If the vet can't listen to you, how will she know how to listen and read Max who actually CAN'T TALK?









And you're a great pet parent! We're all rooting for you and Max!!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Max's Lab Results*

Thanks Aubie









I just spent a ton of time doing research on that Dog Food Analysis site, and what I think we'll do once we finish the Natural Balance food (since it's already opened) and assuming his skin improves is feed him either:

Innova EVO Red Meat or Orijen Regional Red. Maybe Wellness Fish & Sweet Potato if the other two are more expensive. But these seem to be the better ones with smaller serving sizes. And they are all grain-free and chicken-free, just in case.

It will be a while before we finish the Natural Balance though, especially since we're "transitioning" him from Wellness Whitefish and Sweet Potato cans.

Assume we'll also transition from Natural Balance to whatever other food we choose.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Another Question (surprised?)*

So Dr. Doolittle (haha) said we should stop the Glucosamine supplements we've been giving Max (she got a bad reading):

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1682

And we're also giving him Adequan shots. So I guess I'm wondering if I should return the $40 bottle I got and just stick with Adequan or if I should continue the supplement. I'd ask my vet, but she seems clueless.









Thoughts? I didn't see Glucosamine in Nupro, so I would think with Max's joint issues we should keep using it. But if Adequan is adequate (ha) then I'd love to get back the $40!!!!


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*

Posting for LisaT:

Vio79,

I believe that everything you need to get Max better is in this thread of yours. Choosing the right directions will be the tough part.

My sense is that *no* vet will be able to tell you what to do to get Max better, that it is going to be up to you to figure it out. I think you can do it if you shut out the noise and follow your instinct, listen carefully, and see what rings true, and find a vet that responds to you when you say "I want".

This vet that just had Max at her place, can you do that with her? I think LJsMom can do that with her vet?

The beauty of Derms is that they know how to use scary drugs and are also comfortable with weird drug combinations, like doxy/niacinimide instead of pred (which your vet now doesn't have a clue about). The beauty about holistic vets is that are either good at herbs, acupuncture, chiropractic or homeopathy, but they can be just as wrong as any other vet.

If Max is doing worse on this food, then get him off it before too much damage is done. Be careful of chasing vets and specialists that really have the same thing to offer you over and over.

Max has food issues, he has environmental issues, he has flea issues, he has a weird thyroid. All of those have to be addressed at the same time in a coherent manner. Additionally, his joint problems need to be addressed. I don't know if I missed any other issues?

You have tried, and seen enough vets that they should have figured this out. They had their shot, now you have to take control, as you did with the comfortis.

Let's put together a logical plan. You're already started on the comfortis. Next thing is to use the food that you know he has done best on - for now, stick to a single protein, single carb source, nothing added. Then we work on providing more nutrition through systematic and careful supplementation. See if your vet will do the right thyroid panel. 

With all these vets, you've got a bit of "white coat syndrome" going on, I know it well. Max will teach you to get past a lot of that









Lisa's Blackberry says hello :~D


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*

I am working on the same stuff with my gf's dog right now. She was on steroids for years but I've got her on raw now and am slowing adding in supplements, herbs, etc. so that we can see what's working and what isn't. 

Also, my Basu had flea allergies and if he got bitten by one flea his hair would fall out!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*

Thanks Joanne for transferring the message!

Why do I feel like a child who just got slapped on the wrist?









Lisa, I totally agree with you. I guess because I don't really know what to do since I've never had a dog with these issues, I'm relying on everyone else, especially vets who are trained to deal with issues. I've been told so many things from so many people, and so much of it sounds like it makes sense, it's just a huge jumble in my head now. 

I don't even know what food he does best on, since we haven't let him stay on anything long enough to find out!







Guess we'll stick with the Natural Balance since it's the single protein/carb and see how it goes. And I'll assume adding in some actual venison and/or sweet potato would be okay since they're the same protein/carb.








that Comfortis helps.

I only have 5 more days of work, and after that I can be home with Max a lot more. Also hoping that may make a difference.


----------



## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79So Dr. Doolittle (haha) said we should stop the Glucosamine supplements we've been giving Max (she got a bad reading):
> 
> http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1682
> 
> ...


I looked at the supplement that you linked to above. If you look at the supplement facts tab you'll see that they use rice flour and gelatin as the binders to make the pill. Since you are trying to eliminate as much variability in Max's diet as possible right now, it might be best to stop using it, just to avoid the rice and gelatin.

Unfortunaely, I don't have a good suggestion to replace it with because if his HD is very bad, I don't think the Adequan by itself is enough. My vet encouraged us to use a supplement in addition to Adequan for Rica, especially as she started to get worse with age.

My old girl Rica was on Adequan injections and I gave her the Springtime Joint Supplement and Factor Four. These are pills, so there will be things in them to use as binders to make the pill. 

I've been following your story with Max, although I haven't posted. There's other people here who have a lot more suggestions to offer than me. I hope you can get things under control for him. My first dog - that was mine, not a family dog - was also Max - so there's a kind of special place in my heart for all dogs named Max.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*



> Originally Posted By: Woodreb
> I looked at the supplement that you linked to above. If you look at the supplement facts tab you'll see that they use rice flour and gelatin as the binders to make the pill. Since you are trying to eliminate as much variability in Max's diet as possible right now, it might be best to stop using it, just to avoid the rice and gelatin.
> 
> There's other people here who have a lot more suggestions to offer than me. I hope you can get things under control for him. My first dog - that was mine, not a family dog - was also Max - so there's a kind of special place in my heart for all dogs named Max.


Thanks Johanna







His name is technically Mr. Max, haha! But he also goes by "Maxi-Pad," "Maxi" "Poopie" "Boopie" (my fave) and "STOP ITCHING!"









We actually open the gelcaps and dump the contents onto his food, because I did see those ingredients form the gel cap. So hoping that truly eliminates the rice flour and gelatin.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*

Have you started him on Ester C? That combined with the Adequan would probably be very helpful.


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowHave you started him on Ester C? That combined with the Adequan would probably be very helpful.


Yes! Ester C was actually one of the supplements Dr. Doolittle told us to stop using. But we're going to keep it up.

*Comfortis is in Max's system as of 6:30 p.m.* Others have said they've seen results fairly quickly, so I'll be looking out. They are chewable tabs though, so I'm sure there are ingredients in there he shouldn't have. Oh well!


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Another Question (surprised?)*

http://www.comfortis4dogs.com/comfortis-product/faqs.aspx

Q: My dog has allergies. Can he still take Comfortis®?

Comfortis® contains beef-flavoring made from a pork-based protein. If your dog has an allergy to pork, another alternative for flea treatment and prevention may need to be considered. Please discuss these options with your pet’s veterinarian.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Vio79/Max*



> Originally Posted By: Vio79Why do I feel like a child who just got slapped on the wrist?


I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent at all. It was meant to empower you to follow your instincts. I kept reading in the thread about recommendations of vets, finding a new vet, etc. Yes, you need to have a vet that you can work with and will help you do what you want, but, at this point, I just don't think a vet will give you answers. Hopefully, you can find a vet that will work with you in the manner that makes sense to you.



> Quote:I guess because I don't really know what to do since I've never had a dog with these issues, I'm relying on everyone else, especially vets who are trained to deal with issues. I've been told so many things from so many people, and so much of it sounds like it makes sense, it's just a huge jumble in my head now.


Somehow all this information has to come together. You have to find a way to filter through the noise of the knowledge and find a way to do one thing at a time, the thing that strongly centers in your thoughts.

Keep that list of issues - it's short, to the point, and then, whatever you do, ask how that step fits into the plan.

As for diet, raw diets are seductive, but they aren't right for every dog. I do worry about chicken, but I also worry about beef, since he had beef during all that super itchy phase.

Okay natalie, I sure hope your Comfortis pulls off a minor miracle here!!


----------



## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Vio79/Max*

Thanks Lisa. My problem is my instincts change every day, and I know we need to keep come consistency with his diet. But it seems like whatever we choose, it makes him itchier.

This morning, he's itchier than ever, even though last night he got Comfortis AND Prednisolone. So now it's like, do we stick with the venison just because it tested well with Sharon, even though it's a HOT meat, or do we try a different protein like rabbit or fish, both of which are harder to find in food?

We need to pick something and give it a chance!!


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Vio79/Max*



> Originally Posted By: LisaTOkay natalie, I sure hope your Comfortis pulls off a minor miracle here!!


Okay, no pressure or anything
















Seriously though, it has worked miracles for us so I am very hopeful, but as stated all dogs are different and if one thing doesn't work we will continue on down the list. . .


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Vio79/Max*

Yup and based on your PM, I'll wait a few more days.

And we'll stick w/the natural balance and venison only (once we're transitioned off white fish).

Just bought him an antler chew toy (which he loves) and some venison marrow bones for more recreational chewing. We like to hide the antler for him to "find it." The girl at the Pet Barn suggested we use empty soda bottles and cut holes for kibble as another inexpensive "thinking" game for him. Her dog also destroys any and all toys she buys!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Vio79/Max*

I actually prefer the fish diet, since he seemed to do the best on it, and has become itchier on the venison, at least it seems from reading the posts. It appears he is backsliding a bit, and that would point to the change in the diet.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Urine*

I looked around and didn't see anything about this...and it may be nothing to worry about.

But ever since Max got back from the vet, I've noticed his urine has smelled really bad...almost like when a human eats asparagus, but stronger. And a little fishy. So I'm guessing the ammonia levels are really high.

We thought it was the Metacam, since the medicine itself kind of smelled like that. But he's been off Metacam for over a week now and his urine still stinks.

Should I be concerned? If anything, he's drinking more water due to the Prednisolone. But I also know his kidney levels were slightly off and the holistic vet said his kidneys weren't in great shape.

As for his itching...no progress there.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

LisaT said:


> I actually prefer the fish diet, since he seemed to do the best on it, and has become itchier on the venison, at least it seems from reading the posts. It appears he is backsliding a bit, and that would point to the change in the diet.


Oh and in response to your post...I think we're going to stick with the venison/sweet potato until we finish the bag, just to give him a chance on one type of food. You're right that he seemed less itchy on the fish, but he was also on Pred every day for a large chunk of that time. 

IF he's still super itchy after a few weeks on the Natural Balance venison/sweet potato LID, assuming the 30-lb bag even lasts that long, then maybe we'll go back to fish (I think Natural Balance also does LID with fish). But we really need to stick with a diet for more than 2.5 weeks to see, I think.

Or maybe we'll just feed him Kibbles n' Bits. My old coworker's lab has been on that for his entire life, and he's like 13 years old and his only issue is arthritis! She's never spent more than the cost of arthritis meds and his annual vet visit! Same with my husband's parents. Their pug is 13 and has been on the "cheap" food all her life without any major health issues besides obesity. And *yes*, I'm joking, but every joke is a half-truth. Because I'm frustrated, don't want to spend my life savings on Max, and CRAPPY food worked for them!!!

:yuksnow


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*pictures*

I tried to take pictures of some of the areas he tries to chew. Not sure if it's like this in ALL areas, but just now he started going at his back, so I took these pics. You can see he has almost a little bite-type thing there:


















And these are of an area on his chest that has been red for a while - it's one of the spots the vet took a biopsy to be tested:


















In other areas where he seems itchy, he's got bumps the size of moles or warts, almost.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm spamming my own thread! 

Just got a long VM from the holistic vet's assistant/receptionist, which just confuses me more.

Of the 5 supplements we have Max on, they'd like us to try and continue three of them (of course, the most expensive three). She also said the Natural Balance LID is all right to do, but she'd prefer us to use canned and also mix in the Canidae ocean fish food as well as the home-cooked foods she suggested on the list.

So basically almost everything she'd initially suggested.

She said limiting his diet to just the NB food is BAD for an itchy dog, but that goes against what we're trying to do by limiting his diet to determine if he's allergic to a food.

Apparently she doesn't think he has food allergies.

Ugh, so confused.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know how I managed to miss this thread over the last few months. I don't think I can add anything...I just want to say HUGS! This has got to be so hard!


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

wow after just reading all 24 pages i was soooo hoping for a happy ending for you and Mr. Max! I wish I had something to add  All I can say is your an amazing person for all your doing for him, he is so lucky to have you! Looking forward to reading updates and to you finally finding your solution!


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## ospcayorkregion (Feb 12, 2010)

One thing that might help is a fish style supplement for his joints; check with your vet of course, but something like a glucosamine supplement. It's pretty natural, and has worked wonders for some of the Rottweilers that we deal with (prone to hip dysplasia). Sasha's Blend or something similar, I don't know what they sell in your area.

For the skin I agree with everyone else, it sounds like food. It could be environment; allergy to a bed he's on (although probably not), or maybe a shampoo. Could try changing those out, that's certainly cheaper than the vet!

Just some thoughts...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Well, if she doesn't think there are food allergies, that explains what she is doing in that area. So you have to decide what you think about the food allergies. Personally, I think there is a food issue, so you will have to discount all her advice in this area, if you also think that way, since her recommendations are based on something that you might fundamentally disagree with.

Can you give the names of the supplements, and any info on what they might do, etc.,?


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes, I brought the list of supplements with me to work (my last day!!!!), just in case you'd ask. 

*K-9 Geriatric Nutrients* (multivitamin for senior dogs). This looks to have many of the same ingredients as Nupro, which we already have and is way cheaper.

*Spleen Dessicated* (no idea what this is, as they gave us a baggy of pills). Though I'm guessing it's this (Standard Process Spleen Desiccated 90 Tablets) since one of the other supplements (below) is also this brand.

*Betaine HCL*, which appears to be for stomach issues.

*Complete Omega 3 Essentials* (NutriWest, Complete Omega 3 Essentials 90 capsules) 

*Wei Qi Booster.* When I looked it up, I found this article: ~ FOR EVERYONE WHO LOVES THEIR ANIMALS ~ MiraclePooch
Course this one you can only get through your vet, go figure.

The ones she wants us to continue are the K-9 Geriatric, the Omega 3 and the Wei Qi booster. Maybe we should continue the Wei Qi and then just Nupro and fish oils on our own.

The pictures I posted - could those spots be due to allergies? The first spot almost looked like a bite to me. 

I still don't understand how they could come so randomly out of nowhere - after him being gone for two weeks. Especially since he was doing fine on the crappy Eukaneuba GSD formula, which I now know is total crap.

If the venison doesn't do anything after a month, guess we'll try fish...


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

I somehow overlooked this thread...can't figure out how. I completely understand your frustration w/ the allergy issue. I was lucky enough to get a hold of Phoenix's early on. He has both food (processed chicken and beef, and all grains) and environmental allergies.

First of all...the Nupro you are using, I'm guessing it's the gold label? If so, you need to use the silver label...it's the Nurpo Joint. You really need to think about not using it b/c of the flaxseed in it. Flaxseed is a common allergen for dogs w/ allergies. When we figured out Phoenix was NOT allergic to flaxseed, then we went back on the Nupro Joint supplement.

I can't rave about the fish oils/Vit. enough. However, I currently use this salmon oil Only Natural Pet Pure Salmon Oil for Dogs & Cats and add 400 I.U. of Vit. E.

Not sure if you are giving heartworm meds, Heartguard or Heartguard Plus...stop. The chewables have beef.

Currently, I am feeding Phoenix 2/3 cup TOTW pacific stream with 3 NV Rabbit medallions at each meal. His treats are food and NB sweet potato venison and potato and fish biscuits. I was feeding NB LID potato and fish until we got the itching under control and found out he was not allergic to flax. That's when I switched over to the TOTW. It took a good month to two months to get to the root of his food allergies. (he also had loose stools and vomited on other foods until we went on the LID) 

Food allergies are not solved overnight, unfortunately, and as you are finding out. The biggest thing is monitoring EVERYTHING that he gets, including meds and supplements. Binders and fillers in tablets can cause reactions. I use a powdered probiotic to avoid that issue. (RX Vitamins for pets that I got from my holistic vet)

Have you given acupuncture a thought? I know w/ the who single income looming, it may be a bit more costly than you can do as it stands. 

I too have a regular vet and a holistic vet. My regular vet recommended my holistic vet to me. I can say my first visit to Dr. Scerba as nothing like your first visit w/ Dr. Dolittle. Dr. Scerba took a full hour to talk to me and look over Phoenix before making any kind of suggestions. 

Now, I will say that Phoenix is currently getting de-sensitisation shots for his allergies. I give them to him every 21 days (we started in July w/ the shots). I had VARL testing done and we get the serum from VARL. 

My heart goes out to you and all your trials and tribulations w/ this journey. Lisa is a great source of infomation as well as a lot of those folks who have been in your shoes on this board.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Thanks Diana. *

I'm still not totally convinced it's allergies. We don't have him on NUPRO right now, but we already have a tub of the gold label that we'd bought about a month ago, when we were going to try the B.A.R.F. diet.

A million people have told me it could be Flaxseed, but almost everything seems to have it as an ingredient! I think maybe one of the supplements he's on has it? Maybe not.

We can try and stick to the Natural Balance venison/sweet potato dry and canned and then add real venison and sweet potato on occasion.

Just not sure how to determine if it really is something like flaxseed, since most things with that have other ingredients that could also be the culprit.

He's on Adequan for his joints, and for flea/tick/heartworm prevention on Revolution. Though we probably won't start that up again until April.

Yeah, cost will be an issue, as my last paycheck is today....


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Tracy,

Yeah, allergies are a real . Most recommend doing a home cooked ellimination diet for possible food allergies. Basically, that's ONE novel protein and a carb. (usually potato) You feed that and only that. No treats, no meds, no supplements. Do this for about 7 weeks. From there you slowly introduce one item at a time. Usually if the dog is allergic, then you'll see the reaction quickly. I just didn't have the time to do this as I work 10 hours a day and I barely cook for myself during the week.

I stopped the Nupro, all meds and other supplements when we did a "psuedo" elimination diet. NB LID potato and fish. and the treats. Nothing else. I was also giving an antihistamine, Tavist, at the same time. I saw results w/ the puking and loose stools quickly. After about 7 weeks, I slowly started adding other things...the Nupro Joint...salmon oil/vit. E.....you get the idea. Found out quickly when I added chicken to his diet that he could not handle processed chicken or food w/ chicken fat. oh the horror... Same thing w/ processed beef. Now fresh beef he can handle...just not chicken..processed or fresh. Ditto w/ grains....NO grains. 

But b/c of the environmental allergies he still scratched like crazy. That's when I started the shots. They have worked WONDERS (but it did take 7 months to finally work) Unfortunately, b/c he's allergic to household molds and dust mites, I have to be super vigillant w/ my cleaning. That is the hardest part for me. Working 50-60 hour weeks and traveling on weekends to see family or the BF, I'm hardpressed to clean...but clean I do. My mom is impressed that I'll actually dust on weekly basis...before Phoenix, you could write your name on my shelves...or any flat surface in my house for that matter.

Here is another thing I discovered. Phoenix is SUPER sensitive to chemicals. I had used my steam cleaner for a pucking/loose stool episode and used the Hoover cleaner w/ it. OMG, the poor guy was in agony afterwards w/ itching and breakouts on his skin. I found the same things w/ the Wetjet floor cleaner on my kitchen floor. I have since started using organic cleaners (I am in no way considered a green kind of person, but I was desperate). Wow....I can get my floors clean and not have the dog in agony after laying down on them. I use the Dragonfly brand cleaning supplies.

I stop the heartworm meds during the winter months. I also only use the Frontline when necessary. We are titering our vaccines as well, except for rabies. When I have to do bordatella, I'm going to be doing the internasal. But be warned, if you have a friend/family member w/ a compromised immune system that comes in contact w/ the dog, they say don't use the internasal.

I know you've had a tough road so far....I hope you see some improvement....and sooner than later...for your sanity's sake. Big hugs to you....:hugs:


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Wow that is crazy! You went through a lot for your dog (and the cleaning, too!). Kudos to you - I was/am going insane. I think the part that amazes me the most is how you managed to determine what bothered him, as far as cleaners and stuff. I'd drive myself nuts trying different products - might not have even made the connection between cleaners and the dog's reaction.

When you found out he was allergic to the chicken, did you need to start from square one with the diet again before testing beef?

I guess we're kind of doing the psuedo-elimination diet right now, though still giving the supplements. We paid $90 for them, we're going to use them!

If in three weeks there's no improvement, we may have to try your method (which has been suggested by several people on the board).

Not sure if you read back, but our vet had us try the hypoallergenic diet (Prescription Z/D), along with Ivermectin. He reacted well to that, but we saw results within three days. It's my understanding that a food allergy would not subside that quickly.

Anyway, his blood tests said he is highly allergic to house dust, so we're trying to clean more. I'm sure with me being home starting next week, I can stay on top of the cleaning. But we do have a mighty dusty house - there's a layer of stuff there an hour after I dust!


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Vio... Just found this thread. Unfortunately I don't have any advice but I just wanted to let you know that I find your dedication to Max very impressive. Not many would do for their dog what you have and he is lucky to have you!

:hugs: Hope that you can get to the bottom of this soon!


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Oh, it was NUTS trying to figure stuff out. I started the process about a year ago and we are just now getting things squared away. I was very fortunate that we didn't have sore spots like you are dealing with. Just lots of vomit and poop issues and then the breakouts from the cleaners.

The cleaners weren't too easy to figure out b/c when I cleaned the carpet I didn't notice the breakouts right away and figured they were from the allergies. Then a week or two later I washed the kitchen floor and noticed a breakout on his belly that night. That was an "ah-hah" moment. Sheer luck on catching it like I did or I'd have been driving myself bonkers trying to figure out what was wrong now. I didn't try any other products and skipped directly to the "green" cleaning products, going for as natural as possible. I ended up going over the carpet w/ a vinegar water solution to get out as much of any carpet cleaner residue. That made a big difference. Please note, my carpet is 35+ years old. Talk about dust mite heaven...not to mention mold heaven. I'm going to be ripping it up this summer to get the hardwoods underneath refinished. I'm hoping that will help immensely w/ the allergies. Of course I have invested in a vacuum w/ a hepa filter. I've been contemplating having my a/c duct work professionally cleaned. The house is nearly 40 years old w/ central air. My family no longer questions why I spend my money the way I do on the dog...they accepted it a long time ago when my Dakota was diagnosised with DM.

Girl, dust heaven was/kinda still is my house. I can tell when I'm not keeping up with it because Phoenix definitely itches a bit more. I never thought I'd be vacuuming at 9pm....on a weeknight. Carpets are our enemy with dust/dust mite allergies. I like carpet over hardwood because it's warmer in the winter, but hey, I've gotta choose to torture my poor boy or help him. Guess I can put on a second pair of socks...

With food allergies you will not see a change in three days. Takes a while for the food allergen to get out of the system, as is my understanding. I understand you wanting to use the supplements. can't blame you if you've paid $90 for them. Some folks find bathing w/ certain shampoos help. I only find them to provide temporary relief if any at all.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughts MayzieGDS (and everyone else!).

Diana, wow. I hope we aren't dealing with this until September. Hoping this diet will work.

Sorry to ask again, but when you were introducing foods to test for allergies (i.e. the chicken) and you found out he was allergic, did you have to go back on the simple diet for another 7-8 weeks before testing beef? Or could you just wait a few days between foods?

Lucky for us, our whole house is hardwood except for one room, which I'm hoping cuts down on mites.

It won't be so bad for you to lose carpet - your house will be worth more for resale!  But yeah, I walk around in sweats and wool socks meant for skiing. And I'm still cold. The Snuggie is my best friend.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Vio79 said:


> Not sure if you read back, but *our vet had us try the hypoallergenic diet (Prescription Z/D), along with Ivermectin. He reacted well to that, but we saw results within three days.* It's my understanding that a food allergy would not subside that quickly.


Whoever told you that a food allergy wouldn't respond that quickly was wrong.

BTW, it might also have been the Ivermectin.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

LisaT said:


> Whoever told you that a food allergy wouldn't respond that quickly was wrong.
> 
> BTW, it might also have been the Ivermectin.


We thought it was the Ivermectin, but then when his itching came back, seemingly worse, the course of Ivermectin didn't work that second time.

The vet told us he wouldn't respond to the food that quickly...which is why we took him off that prescription diet.

I just don't get how he could be allergic to venison. He's on the restricted diet now w/just venison and sweet potato and still seems totally itchy. I don't think he was raised on/fed venison growing up. I guess he could just be allergic to it in general. Not sure what else in the food it could be. Unless it's something in the supplements we're giving him. Maybe we should stop them for now...


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Regarding his skin problems several have mentioned his diet - it would be my first thought as well. I can tell you that we had some serious skin and ear infection issues with our girl's mixed breed, male companion dog. About three years ago we changed his diet to Eagle Pack Holistic Anchovie & Sardine - the result was immediate - there have been no issues since.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Are you still using Nupro?


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

LJsMom said:


> Are you still using Nupro?


Sorry, found my answer.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Go back to the food that made him the least itchy (fish based I believe). Stop all supplements. Use a preventic tick collar in case it's mites as long as the comfortis company says that they are okay together.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Vio, thought of you...*

I was just reading a blurb on dog food allergies, and it noted that there was a lot of cross-reactivity between these proteins. So if, for example, I have a dog name Max that can't tolerate much beef, it may be possible that he has a problem with lamb or venison. (btw, I do have a dog named Max that has an issue with beef, and eats lamb, so I am wondering, but it made me think about your boy and the venison)

Here is the paper: http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/vth&c/Word docs/Food allergy.doc


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

What a good find Lisa! (4th paragraph under Diagnosis) Mr. Max has a confirmed allergy to milk, right?


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

I didn't have to wait the 7-8 weeks. A soon as I saw goopy eyes or poo issues, I stopped immediately and then waited a week to try something else. When it has to do with itchies...that's a whole different thing. If the allergens are also environmental, the itching will last through the food testing. I didn't have to go by itching alone to know what Phoenix was reacting to, foodwise.


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## GSD2LADY (Mar 13, 2009)

I am sorry this is happening to your baby. I have gone through years of skin issues and infections with my girl. I know how frustrating and expensive it is. I have read through all the posts and you have gotten some really good advise. One thing I wanted to add that was not mentioned is Staph Lysate injections. I just started my girl on these a couple of weeks ago, they are a weekly injection starting low dose building up to required dose. It is too early to tell if they are helping Mystery but it might be worth discussing with your vet. 

Patty, Mystery, Rocket, Diamond and Mufasa


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

GSD2LADY said:


> Staph Lysate injections


Some info: Staphage Lysate (SPL) Veterinary Information from Drugs.com


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

LisaT said:


> I was just reading a blurb on dog food allergies, and it noted that there was a lot of cross-reactivity between these proteins. So if, for example, I have a dog name Max that can't tolerate much beef, it may be possible that he has a problem with lamb or venison. (btw, I do have a dog named Max that has an issue with beef, and eats lamb, so I am wondering, but it made me think about your boy and the venison)
> 
> Here is the paper: http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/vth&c/Word docs/Food allergy.doc


Thanks Lisa...I just looked it over. The blood test did show high reaction to Milk, if it's even accurate. I knew there could be cross-reactivity (I think someone posted about it earlier in this thread?) - I hope it's not to beef and venison! 



GSD2LADY said:


> I am sorry this is happening to your baby. I have gone through years of skin issues and infections with my girl. I know how frustrating and expensive it is. I have read through all the posts and you have gotten some really good advise. One thing I wanted to add that was not mentioned is Staph Lysate injections. I just started my girl on these a couple of weeks ago, they are a weekly injection starting low dose building up to required dose. It is too early to tell if they are helping Mystery but it might be worth discussing with your vet.
> 
> Patty, Mystery, Rocket, Diamond and Mufasa


Thanks for this. Not sure Max would need this, but I guess it's just another option if the limited diet doesn't work.

Also, just wanted everyone to know that *our vet wrote out a rabies waiver without any protest*. Hoping maybe this means she's willing to listen to us at this point. First with the comfortis and now this.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

Just throwing this out there -

Aren't a lot of dogs allergic to flaxseed and/or flaxseed oil? I don't know if that's one of the things they tested for, but if he's still eating New Balance Venison & Sweet Potato, there's flaxseed oil in that -

**** Van Patten's Natural Balance® L.I.D.™ Sweet Potato & Venison Formula For Dogs and Puppies

Just seems that I remember reading about flaxseed allergy somewhere along the line, but I'm definitely no expert in this area!!

I wish you all the best with your boy!!


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

Another thought -

If you're considering a different food (which I'm not sure you are), how about California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato? The animal protein source is fish and there's no flax seed in it:

Eliminate Pet Food Allergies – Hypoallergenic Dog Food & Cat Food – California Natural Pet Food


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

raysmom said:


> Just throwing this out there -
> 
> Aren't a lot of dogs allergic to flaxseed and/or flaxseed oil? I don't know if that's one of the things they tested for, but if he's still eating New Balance Venison & Sweet Potato, there's flaxseed oil in that -
> 
> ...


Mother ! I swear I read the ingredients on the bag and there was no flaxseed anything in it. I know the venison and sweet potato treats don't have it...but we just recycled the food bag so don't know what the exact ingredients are. Hmm, it is weird for me to run out and check???

Even so, the California Natural has barley and oatmeal in it. I don't know if there's a commercial food out there that doesn't have any of those things he could be allergic to.

We have to stick with this for now and give it a chance. If in a few weeks he's just as bad, we'll consider another food.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

Yeah, I thought about the oatmeal and barley after I posted that.....

I don't know how your boy is with lamb or turkey, but if he can have either of those, maybe Stella & Chewy's Freeze Dried raw food might be something to consider? I buy the freeze-dried beef patties to mix with Kaiser's food and he loves them -

Stella & Chewy's - Dandy Lamb Frozen Dinner

Have you thought about home-made dog food? There are all kinds of recipes online and at least that way you could conrol what goes into it! Sorry if any of these things have already been mentioned or tried! I'm sure you feel like pulling your hair out by now! :help:


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks Pat. I definitely thought about home cooked, raw, etc.

The issue with premade raw is that they have other ingredients in it - for now, we're trying to keep it simple. And the Natural Balance seems like the best way, without exposing Max to the prescription diet junk. Of course if we hadn't gone to the holistic vet, I would have followed Lisa's advice and at least gone with the fish, as opposed to venison. 

And for homemade, I'm pretty sure that we'd still need to supplement with vitamins and stuff, and we're trying to avoid any "extras" for now.

Once we determine what's causing his issues (I hope we can soon!) then I want to go raw for sure. I really miss his small, hard, infrequent poops! Now he's pooping on almost every walk, and they're ENORMOUS! Did read that large, frequent poops are another symptom of allergies. Hoping he has no problems with chicken/turkey since those would be the least expensive raw diet!


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

I know they are on the expensive side, but do you have access to either Primal Raw or Bravo. Both of these companies have grinds that is only the meat and bone, no other ingredients.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Woodreb said:


> I know they are on the expensive side, but do you have access to either Primal Raw or Bravo. Both of these companies have grinds that is only the meat and bone, no other ingredients.


Yes, we have access, but the issue is what else to give with them...I mean just raw meat isn't a good diet for Max. Or raw meat and sweet potato.

Money is also an issue, now that I don't have income anymore.

We'll have to stick with the Natural Balance LID for the time being. If there's no improvement, we can consider Bravo or Primal. I think the only thing left we could try is rabbit - it's the only protein he hasn't been exposed to, that I know of. Or we could go back to fish, like Lisa suggested. At least then I could supplement with real fish from the market. But don't forget, we got him when he was almost 6 years old and I have no idea what he was fed before then. 

His itching isn't out of control, or it seems not as bad as it used to be - though he does go after the same several spots over and over. We left him home alone w/out the e-collar for about 45 minutes the other night and he chewed himself raw in one spot (no hot spot, thank goodness), so I know he still can't be trusted on his own.

Let me just reiterate that I appreciate all of the feedback and advice, and I definitely need to go back through this thread and write down some of the information. I'm starting to feel like Bravestdog though - getting frustrated with all the suggestions since there's so much I could try and just don't know what to do. But unlike Bravestdog, I was depending on the vets too much.  I also like getting the advice, but (sigh), I just wish there was a simple answer here!

Anyway, bottom line, I am sticking with the current diet FOR NOW and will come back to all the suggestions if I see no improvement. And I will keep you all posted...I know you're hoping after all of this that something will work!!!!
:fingerscrossed:


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Vio79 said:


> And for homemade, I'm pretty sure that we'd still need to supplement with vitamins and stuff, and we're trying to avoid any "extras" for now.


Yes, home made food usually needs to be supplemented, but not immediately. The body is amazing and stores excess vitamins and minerals in which it calls upon on days it needs them. Since your dog has been eating a balanced commercial diet the store house should be full. This means you can safely feed a limited ingredient diet for at least 8 wks before you need to worry. Then you add in one supplement at a time, usually starting with calcium and watch for a reaction. You build from here. 

And above Lisa mentioned cross reactions. I wanted to add to that. It's a condition called oral allergy syndrome and more info can be found on the web. Basically some proteins are so similar to the pollens that both should be avoided.

November 2004 Newsletter from Monica Segal

"*Allergy Tip of the Month*
Does your dog have environmental allergies? Ragweed is one of the top offenders and interestingly, there are links between ragweed allergies and some common foods.
Chamomile, bananas, cantaloupe, zucchini, watermelon and honeydew melons sometimes cause an allergic reaction in dogs (and people) that are highly allergic to ragweed. It’s been labeled as the ‘oral allergy syndrome’. The bottom line is that some allergy stimulating proteins in the pollens that are released from plants are similar or identical to some vegetables and fruits.
*Best Bet:* Omit the foods listed above from your dog’s diet if environmental allergies are suspected."

In Penny's case she tested allergic to johnson grass which is in the sorghum family. The eukanuba I first fed yrs ago had whole grain sorghum in it. Knowing she might be allergic to johnson grass I would not feed a food or treat with sorghum in it.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Natalie, your post was very enlightening for me!


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

natalie559 said:


> Yes, home made food usually needs to be supplemented, but not immediately. The body is amazing and stores excess vitamins and minerals in which it calls upon on days it needs them. Since your dog has been eating a balanced commercial diet the store house should be full. This means you can safely feed a limited ingredient diet for at least 8 wks before you need to worry. Then you add in one supplement at a time, usually starting with calcium and watch for a reaction. You build from here.
> 
> And above Lisa mentioned cross reactions. I wanted to add to that. It's a condition called oral allergy syndrome and more info can be found on the web. Basically some proteins are so similar to the pollens that both should be avoided.
> 
> ...


I think someone posted a link to something about that earlier in the thread, because I remember reading some information similar to that. Again, that requires knowing what your dog is allergic to. We can guess which environmental allergies Max has based on the blood serum test. But other than that, no idea. I'll have to check his blood work and see if any of the allergens are related to specific foods. 

Again, if this Natural Balance doesn't work, I'll definitely try home made meals, I swear!


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I have nothing to add, other than you are an AWESOME PET PARENT!! If I were near you, I'd buy your a drink or two or bring you some cookies. You're doing so much for Max and it's great to see and know that there are still so many people (despite all the horrible things that we read) that love their pets or furry family members. 

I know this has all been so much info to take in, but I applaud everything you've done! Cheers and hugs to you!!! :toasting::hugs:


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Vio79 said:


> . I'm starting to feel like Bravestdog though - getting frustrated with all the suggestions since there's so much I could try and just don't know what to do. But unlike Bravestdog, I was depending on the vets too much.  I also like getting the advice, but (sigh), I just wish there was a simple answer here!:fingerscrossed:


It's not a bad idea to just keep a running list that you haven't acted on, and once in awhile, look it over, and see if anything jumps out at you.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

Tracy, I agree 100% w/ Aubie. You are an awesome pet parent for Max. I know how it tears at you to see him chew himself and be so uncomfortable.

If things don't work out w/ the NB venison, I'd abandon all NB...it all has flaxseed in some sort of form. I'd go w/ Lisa's recommendation to switch to fish based food before heading to rabbit. Of course, the devil is in the details of ingredients to EVERYTHING. UGH!!!!!!!!!

You are definintely not like the other individual on this board and don't even begin to compare the two of you. First of all, you are exhausting all other avenues as well as tapping the knowledge in the is forum. The other person is trying to diagnosis w/o even taking their poor dog to the vet. You are actively trying to stop Max's suffering, the other person not so.

And Natalie is right on that you can do a homecooked diet w/o supplementing. You are not keeping Max on that kind of diet forever, just to help w/ the possible food allergies. Lots of good info in her post!


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

natalie559 said:


> Yes, home made food usually needs to be supplemented, but not immediately. The body is amazing and stores excess vitamins and minerals in which it calls upon on days it needs them. Since your dog has been eating a balanced commercial diet the store house should be full. This means you can safely feed a limited ingredient diet for at least 8 wks before you need to worry. Then you add in one supplement at a time, usually starting with calcium and watch for a reaction. You build from here.


A little off topic - I'm sure this is true for the fat soluble vitamins. But is it true for the water soluble vitamins? I think that much of the water soluble vitamins are excreted if the body doesn't need them at the time. Do you have a reference?

In spite of this solubility question, I agree that the dog would be OK for a short period of time without the supplements; just as we would. There should be time to evaluate additions.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks all. 

I'll keep you posted on how things go with Max and where we go with his diet if there are no improvements with the NB venison & sweet potato.

Now I'm off to shovel, again.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Woodreb said:


> But is it true for the water soluble vitamins? I think that much of the water soluble vitamins are excreted if the body doesn't need them at the time. Do you have a reference?


I was going from memory, but my reference is Segals booklet 'Nutrient Metabolism', which I don't have here with me now. Let me pull it out later and double check my info as you bring up a good point.

Nutrient Metabolism


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

*house dust*

Joining in. He is highly allergic to house dust? Me too. 

I started using allergen filters as the air intake filter in my hot forced air furnace. The reduction in fine dust was amazing! They don't cost much - ca 20 $ for the highest rating instead of 3 $ for the fiberglass filters. I feel much better, and need to clean less. Less dust, less dusting.

If you have steam or hot water radiators, it helps to wipe the radiators with dust attracting clothes. Dust settles on the radiators especially and rises as the air moves from there along temperature gradients. 

Plus I use air cleaners, and chose a combined air cleaner/humidifier called Venta. A Miele HEPA vacuum cleaner made a huge difference, too.
I monitor the number of particles in the air with a Dylos air quality monitor, and can see what measures reduce dust. 

I learned a lot from human allergy sites on the internet. Doctors tend to focus on the body, but the environment the body is in matters, too. Both seem equally important to me. Air breathed and surfaces touched are as important as foods ingested and medicines/supplements taken.

Some things that have been suggested already: everything unscented, especially laundry detergents. Dryer balls against static instead of dryer sheets. 'Bounce' makes me more ill with each exposure to it. 

Mold: I found that most window A/C units have black mold inside - yuck! And any previous leaks (e.g. from not closing the shower curtain fully) favor mold growth in the wood underneath tiling.

Good luck, and multiple cheers for your determination to help your dog.
Sarah


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks Sarah!

We were thinking we may have to get the better filters - we have forced hot air/Central AC, which I know is drying. But we also have a humidifier built into the system, which should help keep the air from being too dry. 

As for detergent and dryer sheets, we use Melaleuca, which is supposed to use natural ingredients like tea tree oil. 

Don't think I can invest in another vacuum just yet. Ours isn't that old and we love it. I'll just have to stay on top of cleaning now. 

Still hoping come spring he improves, since he came from KY and may just not tolerate this colder, drier winter up in Massachusetts.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi Tracy,

I'd be careful with anything scented even if the source of the scent is organic, natural, herbal, etc. like tea tree. These can be powerful allergens. For example, I cannot be near fresh cedar or pine such as in chips used for mulching, although I love the smell. 

The air intake filters made a visible difference in my house, I was shocked. I got the Venta air cleaners first, and the amount of 'guck' in there astonished me as I keep a very clean house. Once I got the furnace filter, the 'guck' disappeared.

On another topic: 
I have consulted the holistic vet in Bolton. The patient is one of my cats who developed feline asthma at lss than a year of age. My regular vet had referred me as she had seen good results in cats treated by him with acupuncture for feline asthma. He teaches acupuncture at Tufts Vet School. 
No one is a miracle doctor but the kitty's asthma attacks gradually disappeared. I discontinued the treatments as she seemed well but the asthma is coming back now, so I will return, despite of the costs. It's frustrating that it came back. 
This vet is undogmatic, takes time for his patients, and did not peddle a bag full of voodoo supplements as I heard others do. The supps he put the kitty on are pure Omega 3 (he has it liquid from a pump bottle so you don't have to shell the capsules, plus it's less expensive than the capsules), a Chinese herb that she agreed to take in her food for one week (of course, she is a fussy one), and a homeopathic remedy against dust and mold allergies (to be sprayed into her drinking water).

Best wishes
Sarah

PS Have you joined German Shepherd Rescue of New England? German Shepherd Rescue of New England, Inc – a very supportive and knowledgeable group in our area.
And if you ever want to get a second one - this rescue is the most responsible (among the ones I know personally) in fully getting to know their animals behaviorally and medically before placing them.


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## Vio79 (Dec 29, 2009)

Er, yeah. We tried to get a GSD through GSRNE but they never even responded to us. And we also asked for their help with Max and they were less-than-helpful.

Nothing against them, but it seems they're too busy dealing with the dogs they get to help people who already have dogs.

You're the second person who's recommended the vet in Bolton. We're taking a break from vets right now but may consider him if things don't improve.

Jeez I hope Max isn't allergic to anything we use - nothing's changed since we got him.

Thanks for your suggestions!!!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

RunSarahRun said:


> On another topic:
> I have consulted the holistic vet in Bolton. The patient is one of my cats who developed feline asthma at lss than a year of age. My regular vet had referred me as she had seen good results in cats treated by him with acupuncture for feline asthma. He teaches acupuncture at Tufts Vet School.
> No one is a miracle doctor but the kitty's asthma attacks gradually disappeared. I discontinued the treatments as she seemed well but the asthma is coming back now, so I will return, despite of the costs. It's frustrating that it came back.
> This vet is undogmatic, takes time for his patients, and did not peddle a bag full of voodoo supplements as I heard others do. The supps he put the kitty on are pure Omega 3 (he has it liquid from a pump bottle so you don't have to shell the capsules, plus it's less expensive than the capsules), a Chinese herb that she agreed to take in her food for one week (of course, she is a fussy one), and a homeopathic remedy against dust and mold allergies (to be sprayed into her drinking water).
> ...


Hey Sarah, we have the same holistic vet! He's great!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Woodreb*  
_But is it true for the water soluble vitamins? I think that much of the water soluble vitamins are excreted if the body doesn't need them at the time. Do you have a reference?_



natalie559 said:


> I was going from memory, but my reference is Segals booklet 'Nutrient Metabolism', which I don't have here with me now. Let me pull it out later and double check my info as you bring up a good point.


I wanted to follow up on the above question that was asked of me, sorry to veer your thread a bit Vio.

I asked Segal's yahoo group k9kitchen about the water soluble vitamins and other nutrients such as minerals and what happens to them during the 8 wk elimination unbalanced diet time as I did not see a specific answer to that question in the booklet I mentioned.

The group replied that minerals are stored in the body- in organs, bones and muscles. The liver can and does store nutrients like iron, zinc and copper and bones can and do store nutrients such as calcium, phos, magnesium and sodium.

The water soluble vitamins are B and C. Vit C is produced by the canine and does not need supplementation (I know some do supplement, but for the sake of this discussion the body makes its own). Most elim diets have a good amount of meat and most meats contain vit b, enough to get them through the unbalanced time.

Thanks for prompting me to receive clarification.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Natalie,

Thanks for the followup.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

RunSarahRun said:


> Joining in. He is highly allergic to house dust? Me too.
> 
> Plus I use air cleaners, and chose a combined air cleaner/humidifier called Venta. A Miele HEPA vacuum cleaner made a huge difference, too.
> I monitor the number of particles in the air with a Dylos air quality monitor, and can see what measures reduce dust.


Sarah, I've got a dog that's severely allergic to dust mites...what kind of Venta air cleaner/humidifier do you use? I've been thinking about getting one, but looking at all the choices is mind boggling. I've got super old carpet that needs to be ripped out and refinish the hardwood floors underneath, but until then I've been toying w/ the idea of getting an air cleaner.


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