# Proper Correction Methods



## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi guys, I've been reading many threads and websites/blog, but I still can't find a definite method that works best, so I wonder if you guys can share your opinions about this?

How do you guys correct dogs for improper behaviour?

Personally, I use "NO", "HEY", "SHH" or "ACK ACK" for verbal correction. I also use "OUT" to tell my dog to leave somewhere or some furniture. My dog does stop when he hears that, but not always.

He's currently 6 months old, and going through the typical crazy puppy time. Problem is, he would listen most of the time, but there are times that he would just insist, with biting involved. He would also play bite roughly, or he would bite us when we try to stop him from going after something.

What we've tried (in the following order):
- redirect and praise with chew bones and toys;
- body block and redirecting through pulling him away by the collar slowly - when it doesn't work he would start biting us;
- hitting - it does not work at all, he just won't care as if it's just play for him;
- grabbing by the scurf and holding down/still, only releasing when he's calm - he just moves and bites and growls 'till he gets tired, it seems to be more useful to make him tired than to pass the "NO is NO" message;
- time-out or restraint by short leash - to substitute the physical confrontation, it seemed to work a few times I've tried, the problem is we can't do that in the middle of the night coz of the barking;
- pull the flat collar a bit higher to choke him a bit - this seems to work, he would gulp and sometimes cough (like when he does when he pulls the leash during walks) and stop almost immediately.

So far, the last method seems to be the most efficient when he really doesn't listen and respect the boundaries at all. He's a really confident puppy, and no matter how intimidating we try to act, when he gets really rebellious he would just not care at all, and even perceive it as a kind of play/fight often. Maybe we need to be more rough, but honestly we hate being physically rough and we are afraid of hurting him too. All that we want is to be firm with as less confrontation as possible, while teaching him that disrespecting the boundaries won't be accepted.

Maybe all this rebellious behaviour and bites are temporary, but I just can't accept that he won't stop it when we really need him to stop and can't just ignore. There are times in which he would go after something we can't allow him to, and there are also times in which he suddenly wakes up in the middle of the night to play bite us.

But on the other hand, although the collar choke method with the flat collar seemed to work, we are afraid that it might hurt him too.

So do you guys have any good idea on how to make a (really confident) dog know that NO means NO?
My partner is a very gentle person, he's not assertive enough to act like a firm leader, and while our puppy might not listen to us all the time, he does listen to me better since I'm firmer (consistent with rules and less afraid). He is often baby talking him and even reward him in the wrong moments accidentally, and he thinks that the puppy is a fragile fluffy fellow.
I believe that sometimes, dogs do need correction to learn to respect certain boundaries, but I wish if there are any good correction methods that are as less confrontational as possible, with only being firm, calm and assertive as the requirements.


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

Have you ever had him in an obedience class, it sounds like you, your partner and your pup would benefit greatly. It will get both you and your partner on the same page so to speak and the trainer can help with specific problem areas.

I am sure someone with more knowledge than myself will post and can give you better information than I can.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Anastasia said:


> Have you ever had him in an obedience class, it sounds like you, your partner and your pup would benefit greatly. It will get both you and your partner on the same page so to speak and the trainer can help with specific problem areas.
> 
> I am sure someone with more knowledge than myself will post and can give you better information than I can.


I wish that we could take him to one, but it's a bit expensive for our budget. Although I do basic obedience training such as SIT, DOWN, WAIT, and so on, using only positive reinforcement. I don't really correct my puppy during training, and if he doesn't listen (when there are no valuable stuffs involved) then I'd just hold him by his collar to avoid going away, try to have his attention back and command him again 'till he listens.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

You really need to learn from a competent trainer. Find a group obedience class, they tend to be more reasonably priced. But at least crate him at night so he doesn't start that play biting when you want to sleep. Be firm with him, stop letting him dictate what goes on so that he will respect you and get him plenty of exercise. I take it you are not using a prong collar?
You need to get control of this now or you will have a much bigger problem as he gets older.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

TechieDog said:


> You really need to learn from a competent trainer. Find a group obedience class, they tend to be more reasonably priced. But at least crate him at night so he doesn't start that play biting when you want to sleep. Be firm with him, stop letting him dictate what goes on so that he will respect you and get him plenty of exercise. I take it you are not using a prong collar?
> You need to get control of this now or you will have a much bigger problem as he gets older.


I'm currently using the flat collar only, as I'm not familiar with using training collars.

That is my exact worry, that if he doesn't respect the rules now, then it will lead to bigger issues later due to lack of capacity to control him.
I'm not afraid of being firm and assertive if that's what it takes, although I want to learn as much as possible about different possible methods that are safe for our puppy (and safe for my partner to implement, since he's less assertive and less intuitive with dogs) and requires minimal physical confrontation and mostly calm assertive attitude.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

sheep said:


> I'm not afraid of being firm and assertive if that's what it takes, although I want to learn as much as possible about different possible methods that are safe for our puppy (and safe for my partner to implement, since he's less assertive and less intuitive with dogs) and requires minimal physical confrontation and mostly calm assertive attitude.


I respect your decision to try to stick with positive reinforcement (+R) training techniques and work to avoid positive punishment (+P) training techniques. Your dog will love you for that. I'd recommend you pick up Shaping Success to see how a top notch trainer worked through serious issues using +R techniques while avoiding +P. The book is written from a perspective of agility, but it would still be very useful to someone who has no interest in agility. I also think that her other book, Ruff Love, is a great companion to Shaping Success- reading both will solidify the picture for you. Finally, after reading Ruff Love, you may be thinking to yourself- "wow, that's kinda extreme" (I certainly thought that). But I'd recommend reading this blog post to help your understanding of the intent.

[EDIT]- by the way "proper correction method" is _totally_ subjective! The whole "positive only training" vs "correction-based training" is regularly debated on this forum. There are people on both sides of the fence, as well as people who sit near the middle. Nobody will be able to tell you "*this* method is absolutely the best" with any kind of authority because that is a subjective thing to say. It's totally your decision and you will just have to take the info provided, study it, and make your own choice.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

wildo said:


> I respect your decision to try to stick with positive reinforcement (+R) training techniques and work to avoid positive punishment (+P) training techniques. Your dog will love you for that. I'd recommend you pick up Shaping Success to see how a top notch trainer worked through serious issues using +R techniques while avoiding +P. The book is written from a perspective of agility, but it would still be very useful to someone who has no interest in agility. I also think that her other book, Ruff Love, is a great companion to Shaping Success- reading both will solidify the picture for you. Finally, after reading Ruff Love, you may be thinking to yourself- "wow, that's kinda extreme" (I certainly thought that). But I'd recommend reading this blog post to help your understanding of the intent.
> 
> [EDIT]- by the way "proper correction method" is _totally_ subjective! The whole "positive only training" vs "correction-based training" is regularly debated on this forum. There are people on both sides of the fence, as well as people who sit near the middle. Nobody will be able to tell you "*this* method is absolutely the best" with any kind of authority because that is a subjective thing to say. It's totally your decision and you will just have to take the info provided, study it, and make your own choice.


Thanks for the suggestions.  I've heard about Ruff Love before, although I'm not familiar with its philosophy yet. I've found a pdf document somewhere that explains the 4 phases of the program, in which a dog's freedom is strictly restricted at first and then has almost total freedom when he graduates from the program. This idea seems interesting, as it makes a dog learn to respect the owner so that he could gain more privileges gradually.

About the topic of this thread, I didn't want to start a debate about different methods, but just wanted more ideas for different methods, since the methods I've used are not effective/applicable in our case. Flat collar choke seems effective and almost non confrontal, but I'm worried if it can be dangerous, so if there are other methods it could be worth a try.

I just wanted to know what methods you guys usually use for correction, so that I can get a few new ideas and see if any can adapt to my case.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Sounds like you have a very energetic dog. There is a lot of work you have to do when you have one like that. 

He would probably really benefit with some training or even some of those fun classes like agility. 

How much do you exercise him? Whatever the amount, sounds like you need to add some more time to that. Probably a combination of walking, running, hiking, throwing balls, etc....Sounds like your dog has a lot of pent up energy. Maybe find a lake and see if he likes to swim.

I have found in my own personal experience....when they are being buttheads and not listening, biting, barking, whatever....I take them for a VERY long walk, run, hike. It always helps.

As for correction collars or collars in general, mine usually don't wear any inside the house. On walks, my male wears a pinch collar (for the sake of chipmunks and deer...and myself)


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

Corrections are different for each dog. Some need a firmer correction then others. For biting I used the "carry at toy at all times and stuff it into their mouth" method for Rio. She was all teeth from 12 weeks till about 7 months old and it was frustratiing but that method does work. 
You dont need to get to the stage where hitting or intimidating is an option, this only damages your relationship and ruins the trust your pup has in you. When ever you feel yourself getting angry just remind yourself that your dog is a BABY and has no idea that this behaviour is wrong. You wouldn't try intimidate a toddler so dont do it with a pup. 
It sounds like you have a very high energy pup and need to channel that energy into something productive. Up the exercise and get some mind games going (find it, tricks, etc.), you want your pup to be physically and metally worn out by bed time. Its a lot of work but thats what your kid needs. 
I would get into training classes as well, shop around for a class that you can afford. You need the help of a trainer in this situation. You can only do so much with limited knowlage and it sounds like your partner needs to learn how to handle a high energy breed. I know money is tight atm but I would rather spend some money on classes now then shell out big bucks for a behaviourist when things get out of hand. 
As for prong collars I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting one on a 6 month old (Rio started wearing hers at 1 year) but that are the kind of things a trainer can advise you on.

Good luck! It sounds like you have a great puppy who just needs a little work and more stimulation.


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## k9pack (Dec 12, 2011)

It is really about how you are connecting with your dog which matters. Look beyond devices and appearances and think influence via the owner's personality type and you will start to get your answers. Many trainers give conditioning a green light without understanding the type of influence which is happening via the roles.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jetscarbie said:


> Sounds like you have a very energetic dog. There is a lot of work you have to do when you have one like that.
> 
> He would probably really benefit with some training or even some of those fun classes like agility.
> 
> ...


Yeah actually, he has pent up energy indeed coz I can't walk him due to health issues. But I can walk him starting this weekend, and I'm having high hopes that his behaviour will get better. Before, whenever he went to walk, he seemed calmer after. Since he's still young, I'm thinking of 30mins walks twice per day, and when he grows up it will be 1 hour walk twice a day.



catz said:


> Corrections are different for each dog. Some need a firmer correction then others. For biting I used the "carry at toy at all times and stuff it into their mouth" method for Rio. She was all teeth from 12 weeks till about 7 months old and it was frustratiing but that method does work.
> You dont need to get to the stage where hitting or intimidating is an option, this only damages your relationship and ruins the trust your pup has in you. When ever you feel yourself getting angry just remind yourself that your dog is a BABY and has no idea that this behaviour is wrong. You wouldn't try intimidate a toddler so dont do it with a pup.
> It sounds like you have a very high energy pup and need to channel that energy into something productive. Up the exercise and get some mind games going (find it, tricks, etc.), you want your pup to be physically and metally worn out by bed time. Its a lot of work but thats what your kid needs.
> I would get into training classes as well, shop around for a class that you can afford. You need the help of a trainer in this situation. You can only do so much with limited knowlage and it sounds like your partner needs to learn how to handle a high energy breed. I know money is tight atm but I would rather spend some money on classes now then shell out big bucks for a behaviourist when things get out of hand.
> ...


Actually, we've tried to redirect him a few times to chew toys (waving the toy in front of him and even putting in his open mouth to tease his prey drive), but sometimes it just doesn't work, and it's really frustrating lol. I don't really like hitting and intimidating, and just did it whenever he's not listening when I really need him to, and he seems to think that it's play most of the time. Also, hitting and even yelling would just make the situation escalate, and that's the opposite of what we want.

I'm not really into using choke/prong collars, as they don't seem safe for me nor I'm familiar with the methods (which can contribute to possible physical damage).

But well, what I've been doing that seems to work is that I grab his flat collar and lift it up to suffocate him a bit. With this, I don't need to act very intimidating nor hitting nor yelling, I just need to be firm and calm, telling him a firm "NO" and lift it for a sec or two. I don't pop/jerk it, just lift it, as I just want to cause discomfort through suffocation and not pain nor damage. He seems to calm down soon, and that's much less stressful for everyone.

But of course, I only do this as a correction when he becomes too insistent, and definitely not for teaching, as for teaching I use +Reinforcement only. I prefer positive methods more than correcting (who enjoys that anyways), but I believe that sometimes a dog do need some correction to get the message of what he shouldn't do.

But on the other hand, I'm concerned if this can in some way dangerous for his health, as I'm not sure if pressure with flat collar on the front side of his neck can be dangerous. I really wish if anyone can give me some clues about this. I've tried many ways to deal with this situation already (as listed in the first post), in order to find the best way for him, but only so far this has been the best solution I've figured out. But the possibility of physical damage still worries me a bit.


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## k9pack (Dec 12, 2011)

Establish a more defined line in the sand with his edging out during the walk. Where the mind goes the body follows. As soon as a dog moves out beyond this established line push them back into the sit position. Do not ask, beg or otherwise. You may have to perform more sitting at first however this diminishes fast as the dog begins to connect the dots. If you are wishey washy in how you communicate and your expectations than you will have a dog who is holding a level of power as a result.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

k9pack said:


> Establish a more defined line in the sand with his edging out during the walk. Where the mind goes the body follows. As soon as a dog moves out beyond this established line push them back into the sit position. Do not ask, beg or otherwise. You may have to perform more sitting at first however this diminishes fast as the dog begins to connect the dots. If you are wishey washy in how you communicate and your expectations than you will have a dog who is holding a level of power as a result.


Leash manners is very important, and I definitely let him know that when I need him to walk besides me, he has to do it. He will become a big dog soon, and I'm not the strongest person to control him in case he loses control and pulls madly, so since day one I've been firm about it.

What's good is, I've noticed that he naturally walks next to me, even thought not perfectly. He's getting more distracted by the environment stimulus after the first times, but it's not difficult for me to control him. Basically, what I do is to keep walking slightly fast while holding the leash short to keep him close to me to not allow opportunity to lose focus, and do a small attention catching with "LET'S GO" or even correction with "SHH" and a small leash pop/jerk if he starts pulling, and he got the idea after a while (gradually pulled less). Then when we stop, I allow more freedom and sniffing, so that he can explore whatever he wants.
Also, if he pulls then I stop walking. Unless he calms down, we don't move.

But well, it's also important to let a dog to explore as much as possible, coz by that he can react less and less gradually, as he can get used to many different things and there's much less chance to lose control.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

SIX MONTHS IS WHEN IT STARTS GETTING HARDER FOR ALL OF US. :wild:

The good news is we had those 6 months to save up for the dog classes that most of us need. 

This is the age when all the GOOD work we've done with a great breeder, good socialization and gaining a confident puppy has given us exactly what we want.............. resulting in a pup the is now challenging to train because they are confident and thinking and doing the normal testing of the world and environment. Not in a 'bad' way, but a GREAT way we can mold and use.

Much much better to TEACH THEM WHAT WE WANT them to do. Rather then do the lazy traditional thing that humans have done for hundreds of years CAUSE IT SEEMS EASIER..............and that is 'punish/correct' when they are bad/wrong.

So while I DO use a prong collar and DO use an e-collar, it's for specific life threatening type things like the off leash 'come' and the 'you will not knock me off my feet to run in traffic' type of things.

Otherwise, almost everything else they need to LEARN is something I can teach. So it's not just they are bad bad bad bad all the time and so I TEACH by correcting and having them learn do NOT do that, do NOT do that! :wild:

Instead I plan and figure out what I WANT them to do and work out a plan how to teach them to do that. Cause when they are doing 'right' there are no corrections, just praise, treats, toys and love. 

I'm not saying this is easy, we humans naturally seem to tend to want to correct and punish rather than use our brains to figure out how to teach.

It's why dog classes are easier cause the instructors can help us think this better way! :wild: 

Exercise is key! Socialization is key! TRICK TRAINING IS A HUGE HELP to help the human part of the equation back off and learn to teach.

Teaching a trick is the least important part of teaching a trick <---click that 



> When teaching tricks, teaching a trick is the least important part of it. The reason why I started teaching tricks was because I wanted to teach puppy La that working with me is fun.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Great post!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I just want to say that a proper correction with a prong collar is much safer than your method of "choking your dog" with a flat collar. Your puppy will not listen to you for a while, he's 6 months old and will want to do what he wants to do. You need to get him into class because it will make him go into "work" mode. I've noticed with my dog that I can cut him off at any point of play, and with the proper tone in my voice I can get him to "work." He's also 16 months old not 6. Don't expect a lot from your puppy at this age.

You need to find someone that will show you the proper way to use a training collar, redirection doesn't work in all dogs and if you can't handle the months it takes for redirection to take affect then you will need a good training collar.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I didn't see what location your at, but group classes can be very afordable. Usually about $15- $20 a class, maybe a little more but working with a professional dog trainer is well worth the money if you have never trained a dog before. Walking a pup for 30 minutes or even an hour is not sufficient exercise to burn off energy. 
Each dog is different as to the amount of exercise, training or correction needed. The earlier training begins the better.
Using a prong collar is much kinder than a choke chain or tugging a flat collar.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> SIX MONTHS IS WHEN IT STARTS GETTING HARDER FOR ALL OF US. :wild:


NOOOESS~~~  I honestly have hopes that his behaviour will get better, actually it did seem to be getting better, please don't crush my hope lol.



MaggieRoseLee said:


> Much much better to TEACH THEM WHAT WE WANT them to do. Rather then do the lazy traditional thing that humans have done for hundreds of years CAUSE IT SEEMS EASIER..............and that is 'punish/correct' when they are bad/wrong.
> 
> So while I DO use a prong collar and DO use an e-collar, it's for specific life threatening type things like the off leash 'come' and the 'you will not knock me off my feet to run in traffic' type of things.
> 
> ...


It's true that teaching what we want them to do is easier, it's been easy teaching my puppy the basic tricks and I've always just used +Reinforcement with that.

Problem is, I often try to set my puppy for success, puppy proof as much as I can, and redirect, but there are times in which it doesn't work, yet I do need him to respect/obey some rules. I've tried what I've listed in the first post already... If there's a better way for this situation then I would like to use it, but I don't have any more idea and that's why I've tried to ask through the first post for more ideas that I can apply to this case. 

But well, actually I've also ordered a crate now in hope that I can use time out or have him cool down in it.



martemchik said:


> I just want to say that a proper correction with a prong collar is much safer than your method of "choking your dog" with a flat collar. Your puppy will not listen to you for a while, he's 6 months old and will want to do what he wants to do. You need to get him into class because it will make him go into "work" mode. I've noticed with my dog that I can cut him off at any point of play, and with the proper tone in my voice I can get him to "work." He's also 16 months old not 6. Don't expect a lot from your puppy at this age.
> 
> You need to find someone that will show you the proper way to use a training collar, redirection doesn't work in all dogs and if you can't handle the months it takes for redirection to take affect then you will need a good training collar.


I've been thinking about ways to get him into work mode (like carrying backpack and performing tasks), but I need to do some researches about it first. 



kiya said:


> I didn't see what location your at, but group classes can be very afordable. Usually about $15- $20 a class, maybe a little more but working with a professional dog trainer is well worth the money if you have never trained a dog before. Walking a pup for 30 minutes or even an hour is not sufficient exercise to burn off energy.
> Each dog is different as to the amount of exercise, training or correction needed. The earlier training begins the better.
> Using a prong collar is much kinder than a choke chain or tugging a flat collar.


I'm not from America, it's a bit harder to find a trainer here. The problem is that aside of money (it's a bit more expensive here), we also don't have a car yet so that we can't take him to classes that aren't near home.

But wouldn't pinch collar cause more pain and can escalate his excitement instead? Also, I'm worried if the pointy parts can hurt him if not well applied. But I'm just asking this coz I'm not very familiar with this collar, and it looks scary lol. But since you guys say that it's safer, I'll do some more research about it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

"I'm not from America"..........

That's information that we need, can you go up to the top of the forum, in the narrow black strip there's the 'User CP' and you can put your GENERAL location in there that will show up with each and every post (like my Pocono stuff under the small revolving photo avatar to the left of this post).

You may be surprised and there are people that live close to you that are also posting on this forum...


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Done.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

sheep said:


> Done.


Well done! :thumbup:


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## Iannotti (May 17, 2009)

Thank God Our Ace at 6 months realizes no means no. As soon as he hears that word he stops what he is doing or he knows a correction will follow.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Iannotti said:


> Thank God Our Ace at 6 months realizes no means no. As soon as he hears that word he stops what he is doing or he knows a correction will follow.


Is it ok if I ask what kind of correction do you give?

My puppy stops when he hears "NO", but sometimes I still need to go to him to get a reaction. But sometimes I make sure that he would get a correction if he only backs away when I come and not listening to my first "NO"s.


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## bigD103 (Oct 20, 2011)

if hitting doesn work, try flanking. grab the skin right behind the ribs and give it a quick tug. gets their attention real quick and they'll stop or drop anything. sometimes positive reinforcement just doesn't work. as far as collars, we have a prong collar for our 4-1/2 month old. he never pulls, runs away and when we correct him by pulling on the leash, he just sits down. i've heard a bunch of stuff about what age to start wearing the prong collar and like most things its whatever. he's almost 5 months now and nevers pulls on a leash and is the best behaved dog when he's got it on. it works and he won't choke himself on it.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

bigD103 said:


> if hitting doesn work, try flanking. grab the skin right behind the ribs and give it a quick tug. gets their attention real quick and they'll stop or drop anything. sometimes positive reinforcement just doesn't work. as far as collars, we have a prong collar for our 4-1/2 month old. he never pulls, runs away and when we correct him by pulling on the leash, he just sits down. i've heard a bunch of stuff about what age to start wearing the prong collar and like most things its whatever. he's almost 5 months now and nevers pulls on a leash and is the best behaved dog when he's got it on. it works and he won't choke himself on it.


Thanks for the suggestion.  I do grab the skin on his back sometimes, when he tries to run away with something or just doesn't calm down when I really need him to.

IMO, correction, if properly administrated, is not a bad thing at all. In the real life, every being gets corrected by the consequence of their actions and learns from it anyways. One has to take a dog's confidence and temperament into consideration, but a dog that has a healthy confidence isn't going to get psychologically traumatized or so by proper correction.

Some days ago, I've got a leather choke collar, but I still need to learn more about it before using it. For now, I'm still using the flat collar lifting method, and he's behaving well most of the time. Sometimes, he would still not listen thought (this is one really stubborn puppy), and so the ultimate mean method I do in these few times is to grab the skin on the back of his neck and lift him a bit (like grabbing someone by the collar) with a serious business tone of voice (kind of like a growl) saying "NO" (but I have to hold him properly coz lifting a bigger dog just by back neck skin can hurt him a bit, since he's heavier than when he's just a pup). Then he would finally calm down, and lay down.
Whenever he calms down and lays down, I would give him some petting and massaging, so that he would understand that this is what I want from him, and not the other state he was in. If he opens his mouth or growl a bit, all I usually need is just a light "SHH stay still" and lightly poke his face so he lays down again.

But well, I guess that when a dog is stubborn, we just need to be more than him 'till he gets the message. But somehow, I find m puppy becoming less and less stubborn now, maybe coz he's growing up.


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