# Growling



## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi everyone. I have a 1.5 year old male (intact) german shepherd. He's an awesome dog and we've been obedience training him since we brought him home with the help of a trainer. We practice NILF and he gets hand fed with training frequently. He is a very easy going, well behaved dog overall. However, every once in a while he would growl at people. We addressed this with the trainer and determined that when he is in his own space laying down, we need to respect this and let him be. He's never been vicious but if he is tired and wants to be left alone, he will let out a low growl and move locations. I was ok with respecting his space until recently he growled at my husband. He approached my husband and looked as though he wanted attention, and when my husband went to pet him, he let out the same low growl and moved away? I'm wondering if growling can be a sign of underlying problems ie. illnesses? Or if this is strictly a behavioral issue. I ask this because we have been struggling with allergies with him since we brought him home and he has recently started itching again. We just don't understand why he would go up to my husband in a calm matter looking for attention and then growl at petting? I will be addressing this with our trainer but any advice helps! Thank you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would schedule a vet visit. Could be pain somewhere.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If you are seeing out of character behavior I would go with a vet check. This is a link from a recent thread, worth reading.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ly/592514-7-years-old-suddenly-agressive.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm OK I'll just add if it's not "medical" start a new thread and Pm me so I'll know.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you guys! I will definitely be taking him to the vet now. His itching is getting worse again and we can't seem to figure out what's causing it....I'm not sure if he's ever had his thyroid checked but I will be asking about that also.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Update- Our trainer has been on vacation but will be back soon. Tomorrow is our vet visit to get blood work. He has been acting normal since the one growling incident with my husband. However, tonight I went to take a fuzz off of his nose and he snapped and bit me. It was a VERY light bite because he did not break skin or put any pressure but he has never done this and I can always touch his face without any problems. I don't understand what happened. Please help


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Please hang in for your vet visit results. I would add the thyroid to the items checked by the vet -- sudden aggression + unexplained itching in a dog that previously had neither raises that as a possibility, esp. if the coat condition is declining.

If he's clear medically, then he may be entering through an adolescent butthead stage--your trainer hopefully will have some thoughts on that, since he or she knows the dog.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Any update on the vet visit today?


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Update- Vet visit went well. All is good. However we had an incident the other night. My husband hand fed him like usual, then put the remainder of the food down for him to eat. My husband decided to stick his hand in the bowl (something we will no longer be doing. We spoke with the trainer and after we give bryce permission to eat, we will leave him alone from now on). Any ways, bryce growled and my husband decided to put him into a submissive position (something we have been taught to do). Bryce nipped at him when he tried to do this and my husband grabbed him by his extra skin and picked him up. He has never had to do this to bryce before and bryce was not ok with it and bit his face. ER visit and 33 stitches later, we have a new respect for the breed. Please do not attack me on my husband's actions. All of which he did were methods taught to us by a dog trainer. I am looking for advice here about how bryce did not back down when my husband tried to be dominant and i also need words of encouragement. I understand this was a provoked attack and we already spoke with the trainer and are going to move forward with this. I love this dog like a son so this has been very hard for me but I am terrified of this behavior when I have children. Kind words will be greatly appreciated however I want truth and honest opinions as well. Thank you


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Get another trainer who works with more updated methods and stay away from the Monks and Cesar Milan. Try this: next time when he is eating, call his name so he knows where you are and he can make eye contact, then throw a piece of raw meat towards his bowl from a 3 ft distance. Taking his bowl away and putting him in a submissive position will make it worse as you now know. He needs to learn that your presence brings him better stuff. Gradually decrease the distance but make him always successful. It is OK to respect a growl but look at it as a red flag and work accordingly with him. Never meet aggression with aggression because he is much stronger than you are and it will ruin your bond with him. Instead of just handing him his food for being alive, make him work for it; touch him and feed a few kibble etc.
Check out on this forum : NILIF


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Christine1125 said:


> Update- Vet visit went well. All is good. However we had an incident the other night. My husband hand fed him like usual, then put the remainder of the food down for him to eat. My husband decided to stick his hand in the bowl (something we will no longer be doing. We spoke with the trainer and after we give bryce permission to eat, we will leave him alone from now on). Any ways, bryce growled and my husband decided to put him into a submissive position (something we have been taught to do). Bryce nipped at him when he tried to do this and my husband grabbed him by his extra skin and picked him up. He has never had to do this to bryce before and bryce was not ok with it and bit his face. ER visit and 33 stitches later, we have a new respect for the breed. Please do not attack me on my husband's actions. All of which he did were methods taught to us by a dog trainer. I am looking for advice here about how bryce did not back down when my husband tried to be dominant and i also need words of encouragement. I understand this was a provoked attack and we already spoke with the trainer and are going to move forward with this. I love this dog like a son so this has been very hard for me but I am terrified of this behavior when I have children. Kind words will be greatly appreciated however I want truth and honest opinions as well. Thank you


Unfortunately you've been given bad advice. There are many "dog trainers" out there who are absolutely clueless. No judgement, just statements for future readers:

1. Do not attempt the "alpha roll" (forcing the dog into a submissive physical position). 
2. Do not stick your hands into the dog's bowl, or pester the dog when it's eating.

--

You've actually already answered your own question (without knowing it): your husband _tried_ to be dominant. Animals in wild packs will frequently _try_ to challenge the leader, but that does not the current pack leader will simply back down. What he (and you) need to do is start _acting_ like leaders, and do so consistently. Acting like a leader does not require physically picking up the dog, or forcing it into any position. You need to control the dog's life, down to every decision. 

Have a look at Leerburg's "Dealing with the Dominant Dog" article, and the accompanying DVD.

Implement an immediate "Nothing in life is free" approach. Be firm, but consistent. The dog wants to eat, the he needs to sit and wait for your release. He wants to step through the door, he needs to give you his paw. He wants the ball, he needs to do an obedience routine. You get up from your desk to go to the washroom, he is to follow you by your side. He does not get to make any decisions himself - he's lost that privilege. 

I'd suggest finding a local dog trainer that has many years of experience with GSDs - at this point you'll need professional, hands-on help. Internet advice can only take you so far. You need someone that can read the dog at a half-second's notice and take appropriate actions. Your local Schutzhund clubs can point you in the right direction.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I would be saying goodbye to that trainer. I think he will certainly be expecting it. I know in some of the more serious situations, some of the trainers remove the dog from the house for a initially while training is intense. This, to put an immediate halt to the pattern that is developing and break the cycle.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If it was me, I'd think about a very clear and consistent routine to make everything very predictable to him to rebuild some trust. I'd give him his food and not go back near it. NILIF doesn't change a dogs temperament, its more like a plan to be consistent, so I look at it as more for you then him. I think what you would find helpful either way is to try a little more of an indifferent approach with him for a while. Don't be too demonstrative with affection or handling in any way, and spend some time avoiding situations that would cause conflict. Calm and patient, rebuild some trust.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you so much for the advice. NILIF is literally every moment of every day with Bryce. He has been hand fed as a part of training since we got him. We've just been lazy lately and only half the bowl is used for training. He then sits and waits until we release him to eat. My husband decided on his own to start sticking his hand in the food because we are looking to start a family soon and he assumed this was part of what needed to be done. Our trainer told us not to do that. We now understand that he has already earned his food and that we should let him finish in peace. Our training with Bryce is not going to change much except now we will not be using a physical approach when he growls (which really is not often anyway). He is crate trained and LOVES his crate. So when he's not by my side when I'm home, he's in his crate. He never has run of the house.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

I truly believe we do a great job with him. I'm actually happy to find out I know longer have to be "physical" on the rare occasions I need to discipline my dog. I guess I need more reassurance that even though we had an incident, he will still be a good family dog. Because people judge and I'm hearing from many that I should have put my dog down bc once a biter always a biter/aggressive dog.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Christine1125 said:


> I'm actually happy to find out I know longer have to be "physical" on the rare occasions I need to discipline my dog.


Well, yes and no. Manhandling him into some sort of position is unnecessary and generally detrimental. On the other hand, giving a physical correction with an appropriate tool may very well be necessary.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

We do use an e collar with him which seems to work very well. We've gotten him used to it as a puppy and it goes on him whenever we leave the house with him. So he associates it with good. He gets very excited when I take it out because he thinks it's either walk or go for a ride. So I've been leaving it on him more and more in the house. Any verbal correction he ignores he gets lightly nicked and he seems to respond better to the ecollar. 
Now I know it will never be a fix, but do you think neutering will help any? What are your thoughts? He is 1.5 yrs old.
Thank you again for any responses. They are much appreciated


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christine1125 said:


> Thank you guys! I will definitely be taking him to the vet now. His itching is getting worse again and we can't seem to figure out what's causing it....I'm not sure if he's ever had his thyroid checked but I will be asking about that also.


OK then ... so much for my wait and see approach ...just saying. 

I see the call out to "dump" that trainer is loud and clear so just add me to the list. You've gotten bad advice there and made some wrong calls but I did see you've also drawn some wrong conclusions based ie "no physical corrections" ... that is a bit "too broad." 

When you "develop a bond of trust" with a dog that dog will accept a "fair" "physical correction!" That is what is missing here. A dog needs to understand the concept of "NO" and once properly trained there needs to "consequences" for making poor choices! 

You've already made one "poor" choice in "trainers" don't swing the other way and make another! If you go with a "Positive Only" trainer with this dog, they will first waste your time and money be of no real help and then tell you PTS!

He has already bitten "someone" and there will be kids involved so it's pretty much a no brainer for them regardless of what they would tell you now!

If you want to find a "competent" "Qualified, Balanced Trainer" that can help you, see this link:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

There are a lot of things in there that you can do that don't involve creating conflict with your dog and that you can do. 

I don't do "kids" and dogs myself but Jeff Gellman does if that and keeping this dog important to you?? Then you should listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3yUYeYPumk

Jeff says he is going to be working with his kids and some clients dogs tomorrow.

Backtracking a bit to "corrections" ... if you want a hands free approach to train your dog?? Then the E-Collar would be your tool of choice. All the trainers in the link I posted also use an E Collar, and as it happens Lou Castle: Home

Lou is a member here and he says "the fastest and most humane way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-Collar!" And since you are a member here ...he's just a PM away!

Sorry you guys got hooked up with a "tool" and sorry your husband got hurt! If it helps any my first stitches every were caused by my first GSD! 

Poor management on my part allowed "conflict" to develop between "Rocky/GSD" and "Gunther/American Band Dawg" and I got hurt breaking up fights!

I've learned quite a bit since then and "fixed" Rocky force free ... and he does understand the concept of "NO!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyAA-7hedo

Oh and resource guarding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyAA-7hedo

Hmmm just saw you do use an E-Collar?? So my first thought is why the Alpha Rolling and second thought ... that trainer was a bigger fool than I thought!


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Christine1125 said:


> Now I know it will never be a fix, but do you think neutering will help any? What are your thoughts? He is 1.5 yrs old.


I don't think it'll make any difference. If you do decide to neuter (I have no strong feelings either way), I'd suggest waiting until he's fully mature (another 1-1.5 years), as he's not too far off.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you for your reply. As Bryce is our first ever gsd we've been taking advice from many different sources. The Alpha Roll was something taught to us by our vet actually. We would use it when "no" didn't seem to work and he would get worked up thinking it was play rough time. It seemed to work well in calming him and when we'd release him from it he would go about normally. It's actually not something we did often so we never actually spoke about with the trainer (error on our part). The trainer is very big on the ecollar which like I said seems to work well on him but I would get comfortable with Bryce because he is a well trained dog and not put it on him all the time (another error on our part). However there was one training session where Bryce, as a young pup, was showing aggression towards a cyclist and was barking and growling straight through pretty high levels of the ecollar. We corrected this quickly after reaching a high enough level and he stopped and actually never did that again. But I was concerned about his tolerance and the trainer showed us the "pick up by the scruff" movement as a last resort. We've never had to use it but when he showed aggression and wasn't wearing an ecollar and my husband couldn't get him to back down, he decided to pick him up like that for the first and clearly last time. 
Many people here are expressing their opinions about our trainer and I understand but I also know where we went wrong. We became relaxed around our mostly well behaved dog and had no tools at hand to take care of the situation in a better manner at the moment. Our trainer was at my house the very next day. I thank him for the well trained dog I have now and take much of the blame for the poor disciplinary methods on bryce. Our trainer always wanted us to use the ecollar. But with corrections so few and far between, we stopped putting it on him all the time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would stop hand-feeding this dog. And I might not even do the NILIF routine with him around his food.

This is how I see it, and I could be in left field, but the dog has had a lot of emphasis on food and has had incidents concerning food. Using training treats is a different matter, and you can do that when training, but his regular dinner should be set down and then he should be allowed to eat it. No more monkey business with the food. 

You are planning on having a family soon. That means babies and babies WILL put their hands in the dog's food. Good dogs will understand the rules about babies, but good dogs don't bite their owners in the face, really bite them either. So, we cannot afford to let this happen to your child or any of the children that are in your home with your child. The dog may be around for 10 more years so we are talking about kids from baby up to maybe 9 or 10. 

What I would do is, I would set up a kennel in the basement or garage. Tractor Supply has a professional kennel for about $300. 5'x10' in six panels. 6' high. Looks nice and it is sufficient for GSDs. 

I would put his food dish and his water dish in the kennel and feed him in there with the gate closed. No fan fare, no requirements, no baloney, no hand feeding.

I would NEVER, EVER trust a dog that bit my husband in the face so he needed 33 stitches in an incident over food with a baby that might crawl or toddle over to his food. Sorry. The food would be inside a kennel and the kid would be upstairs or in the house when the dog was eating. 

I never was a fan of NILIF, except for the fact that it can help owners be more consistent with their dogs, give the dogs a more predictable leadership. I have never thought hand feeding was the way to go with any dog. I think it has caused or increased issues here. I don't believe a dog should work for resources he needs to survive. Water and food are a given, treats can be worked for. Potty breaks are a given, walks and playing in the yard can be worked for. When we make dogs work for the things they need to survive, it increases the value of those things for the dog. 

I am not a fan of throwing good things into the dog's dish either. Prepare his dish, walk to his kennel, set it down, and then open the gate and leave the kennel and then let him in. No one is allowed to bother the dog until the dog is finished. The dog eats at the same time every day, and then his dish is removed. 

If I were going to keep a dog like this, I would have something like this in place. Not just a crate in the bedroom or mud room. If the kid puts his fingers in the crate when he is eating, he may feel that much more worried about his food. A kennel is larger, and easier to have rules about. 

The parents to be have to be disciplined in this, and I would start now. 

The rest of how you work with this kind of a dog, yep, no alpha rolls, and yes, I would determine methods of avoiding conflict with the dog, re-establishing trust both ways (through training, lots of treats, lots of self-discipline on the part of the owners to be consistent, clear, etc.), and I would probably neuter the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did this dog come from a breeder? If so, maybe someone could look at the pedigree for some insights. 

Personally, I would not keep a dog that sent me to the ER for 33 stitches. That is a serious bite. Granted, your husband did something stupid based on a vet's stupid advice...but none of my dogs would have nailed me for doing this. This is NOT a dog you would want around a baby.

Second, ditch the trainer. YOu are not supposed to fry your dog and you never use an e-collar for aggression towards an object or person.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

selzer said:


> I have never thought hand feeding was the way to go with any dog.


Not speaking about this dog/scenario specifically, but hand feeding was recommended to me by both of the local Schutzhund trainers I worked with, and it really made a huge improvement for my own dog.

Small amount of food in hand, wait for eye contact, mark it, give food. Rinse & repeat. Within a week the dog started paying attention to me way, way more. Within a month you couldn't tell it was the same dog. She's constantly checking up on/with me and proceeding accordingly. I think the benefits of NILIF are along the same lines - paying attention to the handler and always being ready to follow commands.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

yuriy said:


> Not speaking about this dog/scenario specifically, but hand feeding was recommended to me by both of the local Schutzhund trainers I worked with, and it really made a huge improvement for my own dog.
> 
> Small amount of food in hand, wait for eye contact, mark it, give food. Rinse & repeat. Within a week the dog started paying attention to me way, way more. Within a month you couldn't tell it was the same dog. She's constantly checking up on/with me and proceeding accordingly. I think the benefits of NILIF are along the same lines - paying attention to the handler and always being ready to follow commands.


This was taught to me as an auto check in. It works unbelievably well and so easy to teach.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The hand feeding isn't causing food guarding behaviors except in that it perhaps contributed indirectly to a dog that already had a genetic propensity for that behavior by making food a more valuable resource and since he was hungry he was more apt to defend his prize.

Where is the OP from? Maybe some trainers in your area I know that could help with issues like this.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't take this position often but Jax said what I'm thinking! I don't promote alpha roles nor sticking your hand in a dogs food bowl but I most definitely can do either with either of my boys with no problem and I would absolutely want this reassurance before starting a family.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... pretty sure it's safe to say that most "trainers" would wainersant to know if there client's are Alfa Rolling their dogs behind there backs?? 

And I have been know to say "Vet's are not Dog Trainer's." 

I usually suggest to people to use a "drag leash a short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture in the house" so that you don't have to *"lay hands on the dog."* And ... I am not a "Pro."

Your trainer told you to "grab him by the scruff of the neck" .. so yeah ...

The use of the E-Collar and the bicycle thing strikes me as kinda squirrely, not quite how I would think it would be done?? But.,not my thing although I did point you to who is. 

I pointed you to people that can help you find "competent" trainers and Bailiff said he can help you find someone.

And if it's in the budget you may want to consider a board and train?? Is a board and train an option for you?? 

At the bare minimum in the links I posted is "I just got rescue what do I do??" Just start over. "A two week shut down" give the dog and yourselves a break start over and just think this thru! 

To much bad advice being followed give "everyone" in the house a break and regroup/start over.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Scruffing, alpha rolling, pinning, even collar grabs are all really dangerous ways to correct a dog if the dog even has a hint of coming back at you. I don't like anything that confrontational even with dogs that don't. It has a tendency to put a dog in defense if they have the genetics to do it, and when a dog is fighting for their life they don't pull punches, even for "mommy and daddy." There are plenty of ways to correct a dog that don't put you at so much risk to lose. Now instead of just having a dog that is resource guarding you have one that has learned he can relieve pressure that humans put on him by fighting and biting. Not a good way to be. This is a professional case now. You need to find someone that knows what they are doing.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To me this sounds like "every thing done wrong" e-collar from the get go, alpha rolls, scruffing, messing with the food dish.... Fire the trainer with some pretty harsh words. As far as IPO goes - there are people out there that are worth listening to and others that are better ignored. The two that told you to stick your hand in the dog dish are two that I would quit listening to.

Alpha roll and scruffing were recommended about 30 years ago (35). Now they are more often recommended as ways to get yourself bit.

I would listen to Baillif and Selzer.
(Others on the forum had good input too but these two stand out for clarity and in Selzer's case, explicit advise.)


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Scruffing, alpha rolling, pinning, even collar grabs are all really dangerous ways to correct a dog if the dog even has a hint of coming back at you. I don't like anything that confrontational even with dogs that don't. It has a tendency to put a dog in defense if they have the genetics to do it, and when a dog is fighting for their life they don't pull punches, even for "mommy and daddy." There are plenty of ways to correct a dog that don't put you at so much risk to lose. Now instead of just having a dog that is resource guarding you have one that has learned he can relieve pressure that humans put on him by fighting and biting. Not a good way to be. This is a professional case now. You need to find someone that knows what they are doing.


LOL... let me break that down "even" further into "Pet People" speak! Of which I am a member ..."up leash dog!" Future members can google that one.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you for all of your advice. We will definitely be looking into a new trainer after the holidays. We're also considering neutering. I'm getting many many different opinions on the matter. I understand it's not a quick fix but if it could help even a little I'm willing to try it. What do you think? 
He's been great since the incident. Besides figuring out the best way to correct/discipline him when he does growl, we do not need advice on obedience training. Sit, stay, speak, place, paw, down, middle, right, look, etc are all day - every day for us and he LOVES every minute of it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Christine - I'm pretty sure that sit, speak, paw etc are considered to be "tricks" and nice but - when you say that you don't need any training advice - you really scare the **** out of me. 

33 or 35 stitches needed on their owner's face IMO has nothing to do with training these basic things. I think, no one (including you and your husband) wants to talk about the elephant in the room.....

The dog learns... good and bad. He learns what works. He will repeat if it worked. Did you get anything out of Bailiff's posts? Have you seen any of his training tapes? Cryptic as he can be - he knows what he is doing. 

I'm just very concerned, that at this point - you aren't realizing the line in the sand, between owner/leader and animal has been obliterated. It's gone - there is no definition anymore IMO and if it's gone - there is no basis to move forward... It might all look great but when there comes then nest time to be a challenge - you guys have lost credibility and your dog knows how to handle that in the future......


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christine1125 said:


> Thank you for all of your advice. We will definitely be looking into a new trainer after the holidays. We're also considering neutering. I'm getting many many different opinions on the matter. I understand it's not a quick fix but if it could help even a little I'm willing to try it. What do you think?
> He's been great since the incident. Besides figuring out the best way to correct/discipline him when he does growl, we do not need advice on obedience training. Sit, stay, speak, place, paw, down, middle, right, look, etc are all day - every day for us and he LOVES every minute of it.


Yeah "Rocky" knew all that "stuff" also ... didn't mean crap I still had problems!

But "Rocky" never growled at me! So bare that in mind! What I did that finally brought about changes was "Walk my Dog" a dog does not need you to exercise but he does need you to "Walk!" 

And although I did not know it at the time I did "The Place Command" and there is also "Sit on the Dog" all of that "is" in the link I posted. Non confrontational and as I was pretty ticked off "No touch, No talk, No eye contact was not a problem! He changed and I did not notice, he was a PIA and a obligation and then this happened:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

But again as I said even with my problems "Rocky" never growled at me!

So ... I don't know maybe I should add "I am not a Pro" and "people should use common sense to my signature??"


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

I think you guys took my post wrong. I don't think I know what I'm doing. That's why I'm seeking help. All I'm saying is that I don't need a trainer that will show me "tricks". He's good at that. I need a trainer that will show me how to discipline my dog. I need a trainer for a growling/aggressive problem. I have not lost control of my dog either though. He does not run my house. The bite was something that happened once and I don't want it to happen again. As you can see from this post alone, it is very easy to recieve the wrong advice. Literally everyone tells you something different. I will be seeking advice from another trainer. Thank you


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Good deal. I did interpret your post wrong. My apologies Man, I hope it all works out - your post was the glimmer of hope in a bunch of really bad ones this week. A couple of dogs are about to be put down and they have not really bitten but their lives are gone. You and your husband - the polar opposite).


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Thank you. I'm lucky enough to not have children yet so I do not have to make any rash decisions. Neither me or my husband are afraid of our dog and we're lucky enough to have the means to try everything we can to take care of this. I love this dog and I want to make this work. It's discouraging to hear all of the negative opinions telling me to get rid of him or put him down because he will never be a family dog. I'm not willing to put children at risk but I do believe he's a good dog who needs the right discipline for his personality


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christine1125 said:


> I think you guys took my post wrong. I don't think I know what I'm doing. That's why I'm seeking help. All I'm saying is that I don't need a trainer that will show me "tricks". He's good at that. I need a trainer that will show me how to discipline my dog. I need a trainer for a growling/aggressive problem. I have not lost control of my dog either though. He does not run my house. The bite was something that happened once and I don't want it to happen again. As you can see from this post alone, it is very easy to recieve the wrong advice. Literally everyone tells you something different. I will be seeking advice from another trainer. Thank you


Nope sorry you took "my" post wrong!

I was trying to explain *"I"* did do those things *"also"* and they were not enough to prevent "issues." 

See my link "Structures Walks" "The Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog" are all things that help you develop a "Bond" with your dog! Once you have that "everything is easy!" 

No problem looking for Competent help if again you look at my links ..you'll better understand what to look for, sorry for the confusion .. my bad.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sounds great. You know, as I do - that hindsight's a you know what. But use the heck out of your resource here. I know you would have got a huge "No - don't do it" for the alpha roll and the food dish issue and from the trainers here, never grab the collar- the leash or drag line. This one thing is the only problem I see with your trainer - he should have known to grab the collar would have resulted in a bite. Maybe wrong - but if you bring it up in a casual way - he might agree.... If not - I for one would be interested in hearing his version - may change my mind.

By the way, please give your hubby a huge hug for all of us. So sorry he's got the real short end of the stick - especially during the holiday Hope you are catering to his needs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Find a trainer to find out what the aggression issue is and have a good way to correct it, because this sort of bite sounds like the kind of thing that will reoccur and get worse not better unless you change how you live with the dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Christine1125 said:


> Thank you for all of your advice. We will definitely be looking into a new trainer after the holidays. We're also considering neutering. I'm getting many many different opinions on the matter. I understand it's not a quick fix but if it could help even a little I'm willing to try it. What do you think?
> He's been great since the incident. Besides figuring out the best way to correct/discipline him when he does growl, we do not need advice on obedience training. Sit, stay, speak, place, paw, down, middle, right, look, etc are all day - every day for us and he LOVES every minute of it.


I would go ahead and neuter him. I've had hands on experience with 2 male Rotts where it made a difference and one where it didn't. The one it didn't was a dog with a very solid, calm temperament from the beginning. 

I think you'd do better if you did look for some help with obedience. There's more to it then the things you've taught him and thats the way you'll learn the how's and when's for corrections. Sorry if I'm repeating myself Christine, but I think you'd be better off if for a while you concentrated on more of a management approach, avoiding conflicts, and rebuild some trust. Thats not a knock on you or your husband, its something that happens. Dogs have their own perception of whats fair and a little bit of a cooling off period can help.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

I appreciate all of the advice on here. I've got a lot of reading up to do. thanks chip! I did try the "sit on your dog" method today. I read that article first and really liked it. I think bryce did really well with it for the first time (let me know what you think). After about 2 minutes of asking for pets, he laid down quietly for about 15 minutes, then got up and paced a couple steps, cried a little, then laid back down for another 20 minutes or so until we released him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christine1125 said:


> I appreciate all of the advice on here. I've got a lot of reading up to do. thanks chip! I did try the "sit on your dog" method today. I read that article first and really liked it. I think bryce did really well with it for the first time (let me know what you think). After about 2 minutes of asking for pets, he laid down quietly for about 15 minutes, then got up and paced a couple steps, cried a little, then laid back down for another 20 minutes or so until we released him.


WOW!! Finally some good news!

Start training "The Place Command" also, sometimes less is more. Thank "bailiff" also!


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Of course thank you bailif! He is already very well trained with the place command and can do so at quite a distance. He has always stayed in place until released and will stay in place even if we are out of sight. We have started to put him into "place" whenever the doorbell rings. This is a new work in progress and he's getting better with it. He will stay in place but bark. I want to stop that bark. A quiet "place" when ppl come to the door would be nice. I really liked the sit on your dog method and my husband and I will definitely put this into practice. We also want to work on our walks with him more. He is well exercised with a big backyard and fetch daily. But a calm walk is something he could definitely improve on. He's not bad but theres definitely room for improvement. No aggression or pulling on walks but he does try to stop and sniff often.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

All good practices of course but being able to do obedience with a dog and have the dog follow commands is a very different thing than dealing with aggression issues. The dog resource guards, that much is clear. The picture where you tried to remove fuzz and got snapped at and the one where your husband was confrontational around a food bowl are both likely resource guarding pictures.

You guys need to be very very careful about approaching him when he has taken possession over something until you find a trainer with the knowledge and experience to help you manage or fix that situation. You need to find a less confrontational less personal way to deal with it than your previous approaches because it has become very clear the dog knows he can beat you both physically, and any solution you try that is directly confrontational in nature in those pictures will likely result in a bite. 

All your practices away from that picture of the resource guarding will NOT bleed over into respect for you in the picture of resource guarding. Dogs don't think like that or learn like that. They aren't familiar with the human concept of authority or rank structures. He could be perfectly loving and fine one moment then take possession over something and turn into a lion with you guys. You need to find professional help regarding that specific situation so that you can safety correct it, or take care to manage the dog very carefully so that he eats, has bones, toys in isolation away from you guys so that you don't allow him to practice the resource guarding further. This kind of thing can bleed over into bedspace or personal space or couch space too or even resource guarding of a person or room if you allow him to practice it a lot.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I think that it's great you have the resources and dedication to work with your boy, I'm sure that you love him and in my previous comment in no way did I want to impose that getting rid of him (or put down as you said someone mentioned?) was a clear cut, absolute or easy decision.... it truly is the "family dog" persona that you seem to be hanging on to that worries me and I really do think that you should consider how much you want children, a feasible timeline for that and know that even after pouring tons of work into this guy, it still may not be the best fit. there are moments with even the most vigilant parents where the plan or structure you set up to keep everyone safe fails.

so I genuinely mean it when I say that I hope you can work through this and keep him til a ripe old age with no further incidents.... but I also can't stress enough the reservations I'd have bringing a child into the same home.

there are many different reasons that dogs bite, so it's not the bite itself that stands out to me... it's the nature, which is resource guarding, and the degree, even with human error, that he went.

so that's all I got.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Understanding Dog Growling and Dog Language - Whole Dog Journal Article

https://www.peaceablepaws.com/articles.php?subaction=showfull&id=1282173843

How to React When Your Dog Begins Resource Guarding Against Other Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Ok great I can't thank everyone enough for all of the words of advice. After reading everyone's answers it's definitely resource guarding that's his problem. What's strange is that it comes randomly. For the most part I can take his favorite toys without incident. I can also take his food as long as he is not mid eating. But there are definitely those times where he decides he doesnt want to give it up and we get the growl. I really hope a better trainer is the answer and that we can control and stop this behavior easily. Like I've said in the past, I would never put a child at risk but I will be having kids one day in the future and if I feel as though they will not be safe then other measures will have to occur. But I will deal with that decision in the future. For now he needs behavioral training to stop this aggression. I just hope this all works out in the long run


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One last thing Christine, its not definitely any single thing. Be careful reading different articles and trying to make it apply. One example, you don't take things from him. He gives them up to you. That may not sound like any thing different then what you're doing with him, but its a part of obedience to you and different as far as his attitude with you and conflict.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't take things from mine. She was trained very early what "Leave it" and "Back" mean. Both of these were trained in the beginning as a game using a ball. 

This comes in so handy for me and gets her out of the immediate area that is within "resource guarding range". I also use these two simple commands for anything from taking a bone, keeping her from getting wasp stings, eating mystery stuff on the sidewalk and many other situations. 

I don't know if it's the best way, just something I stumbled on, but it works for me.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

If this is a really stupid question then please excuse my ignorance in advance. But shouldn't a family pet absolutely know his place in the pack and know that absolutely no aggressive behavior is acceptable under any circumstances. If I want to take a toy from my dog or anything else for that matter shouldn't the dog know that what I say goes. Cause I would freak out on rosko if he showed any aggression towards myself or family. 33 stitches **** 2 stitches I would shoot rosko myself. So when does it become acceptable for a dog to show aggression towards the owners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> If this is a really stupid question then please excuse my ignorance in advance. But shouldn't a family pet absolutely know his place in the pack and know that absolutely no aggressive behavior is acceptable under any circumstances. If I want to take a toy from my dog or anything else for that matter shouldn't the dog know that what I say goes. Cause I would freak out on rosko if he showed any aggression towards myself or family. 33 stitches **** 2 stitches I would shoot rosko myself. So when does it become acceptable for a dog to show aggression towards the owners.


If a dog has a dislocated hip after being hit by a car, and his owner picks him up, injuring him further, then it is acceptable for the dog to show aggression towards the owners. 

If a child is putting a pencil all the way down the dog's ear, then it is acceptable for the dog to show aggression toward the owners/child. 

Alpha rolling a dog, especially if it is done with an attitude of aggression, irritation, anger, etc, could put a dog into a state of fear of the owner. 

I don't know if that is enough for such a bite or not. Really, I think we have to leave that decision to the owner. If I did something that drew such a bite from a dog, and I could look back and think, I should not have done that, ever. Than I would be hard-pressed to put a dog down for it.

I did put my first GSD down for biting me. He was not letting my other dog eat, so I grabbed him and went to put him into a crate. I was angry and the dog was fighting going into the crate. He grabbed my wrist with his mouth. It was a clear warning. It did not break the skin. In the moment I did not want the dog to think he could get away with that crap, so I said, "Oh no you DON'T!" and grabbed his collar to shove his butt into the kennel, and he bit me. Three of my fingers had some blood. 

Looking backwards, after having been BIT by other GSDs, I know how much bite inhibition he showed. It was again communication. But, I was inexperienced, the dog was in pain (shattered leg that never healed right), he was getting more and more testy about everything, I could not train him, or exercise him because of his leg. I took him to the vet. 

If there is such a thing as the rainbow bridge, I hope to be able to tell him how sorry I am for not doing better with him. It is no easy decision to do that, and even a dozen or more years later it is not an easy decision to live with. 

Been bit since, dogs did not get put down, it was always dogs fighting with other dogs and my getting in-between. Stitches and significant recovery time doesn't necessarily mean the dog is to blame. Just an accident, part of owning a number of dogs, not all will get along all the time. As time goes on, experience with dogs increases, management gets better, incidents become fewer and farther between. The last bite I got was 8 years ago. 

It is easy to say that you would shoot a dog yourself, but it is much harder to do. Unless you have shot a pet dog, I think you should be careful how you make such statements.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

If bryce attacked without warning or if my husband did nothing to provoke a response out of him, I may be more inclined to put down a dog that I felt was truly unstable. But the dog gave a warning growl and responded to aggression with aggression. There's fault to our methods. And I know my dog. We've had him since he was a puppy and he is not by any means an unstable dog. He is loving and patient and happy and fun. And it's hard to overlook so many good qualities because of a couple of incidents caused by bad training on our part. He bit my husbands face. Three gashes across his nose and cheek. I'm not going to put others at risk but my husband and I are not afraid of him. If he bites us again despite efforts to train him differently and "better", then he's done. But I cannot live with knowing that one bite that we are partially to blame for sent a good dog to his death. Judge away. I'm willing to try other things first. I think each dogs personality is different and each case is different. We knew what we were getting into when adopting a gsd. If I wasn't prepared to handle problems I would have gotten a hamster.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> If this is a really stupid question then please excuse my ignorance in advance. But shouldn't a family pet absolutely know his place in the pack and know that absolutely no aggressive behavior is acceptable under any circumstances. If I want to take a toy from my dog or anything else for that matter shouldn't the dog know that what I say goes. Cause I would freak out on rosko if he showed any aggression towards myself or family. 33 stitches **** 2 stitches I would shoot rosko myself. So when does it become acceptable for a dog to show aggression towards the owners.


 Uh ... "no one" said this is "acceptable??" If "your" choice is to put a "difficult" down dog? Then go for it! You don't need "us!" No shortage of "Positive Only" types to cheer you on!

The OP got a lot of "crappy advise from several different sources!, and they followed it! "That is why someone got bit in the face! 

Not everyone is so "blessed" as to always get "easy" dogs all the time! I was for 10 years and then I got my first WL GSD and ...here came trouble??? Pack Fights and Human Aggression and yeah I wound up getting stitches (breaking up fights) and we felt like we were living with a ticking time bomb!

But .... PTS was "never" an option for "me" if I had a problem with my dog then it was my job to "out think" my Dog! And we got it done and as it happens he paid me back for my efforts. 

There are lots of people with lots of dogs that bit the crap out of them before they worked it out. And pretty sure they have no regrets for working "through" the problems ?? I guess those that can do and those that can't "PTS??"


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. A dog nipping out of being in pain is not aggression that would be considered the dog communicating that your hurting me. Breaking up a dog fight and getting nipped to me doesn't equal dog on owner aggression. Me taking my dogs food, toy, water, etc... And the dog growling and biting me. That equals dog on owner aggression. Just a nip in that instance would not get the dog shot but he would learn that he doesn't nip me. Possibly through pain. Now when a dog bites with intent to cause harm not just a nip to warn that is when I would have no problem exterminating the dog. Maybe I expect way too much from my animals but to me that is not acceptable. I do use positive reinforcement training however, I also believe that physical corrections are needed also. I actually thought that positive only trainers would have been the ones to disagree with me more Than people who use both. But only because I would have contributed positive only as being an enabler to letting a dog think he has a right to bite an owner. So to the OP I truly hope you get things figured out and have many happy years with Bryce. But just keep in mind in any and all decisions made concerning Bryce or any future dogs. They are just dogs. We love them and we do all we can for them but at the end of the day they're still just a dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> Uh ... "no one" said this is "acceptable??" If "your" choice is to put a "difficult" down dog? Then go for it! You don't need "us!" *No shortage of "Positive Only" types to cheer you on!*


This is such a nasty, snide, remark that is completely unwarranted. It seems to be a constant theme in your posts whether PO is brought up or not. The person you responded to didn't bring up PO training. So why add a snide remark like that in your response. Especially in this context as if all positive only trainers are cheering dogs being killed. It's a disgusting comment.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Christine1125 said:


> If bryce attacked without warning or if my husband did nothing to provoke a response out of him, I may be more inclined to put down a dog that I felt was truly unstable. But the dog gave a warning growl and responded to aggression with aggression. There's fault to our methods.


I actually agree with this. Under circumstances where the dog is unstable, and I fostered one like that who would turn with no warning...happy happy happy until he wasn't...this incidence is your fault. And you are taking 100% responsibility for it! So many people come here and take no responsibility for their own actions so kudos to you.

I still would never let him around children. Those 33 stitches on your husband could have very easily been a casket for a child. But you are willing to get a trainer and work thru this, teaching proper FAIR corrections and conditioning. 

Just be aware that you now have a liability and a recorded dog bite. If he bites someone outside your immediate family, it could mean your home. 
And call your vet and tell him to stop advising maneuvers that get people bit. Idiot. Stick to medicine, not training.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

I definitely am not willing to put children or others at risk. Especially not now. He will be crated when we have company for now which isn't often. I was considering getting a muzzle for him for when we have people over. Train him to like it for example when the muzzle comes out good things happen. Any advice on this? Good or bad idea?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I think that a muzzle can be a good option and certainly protects you from a bite but if he's put in situations where he can still posture or growl or lunge - it defeats the purpose at least from a training perspective and the crate is the better choice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

A muzzle is a very good idea and training him to it is even better.  Get a good basket muzzles that fits him properly.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Muzzle training is a good thing. I spent weeks conditioning my GSD when he was about 6 months old because I read about it on the forum. The forum comments were about making sure your dog was conditioned to a muzzle as one never knew when a muzzle might be needed.

This past week I took my dog's muzzle with us for a vet visit. I have had the same vet for 30 years and we know each other very well. Before the vet had Simon get on the table to raise it, I said I was going to muzzle him. Now my GSD loves the vet and my vet said my dog is one that is vey popular with the staff. The most experienced tech says that my GSD is the best German Shepherd that is seen in their practice. But, I wanted to be responsible about insuring this was a good experience for all involved.

I know that my job is to never have a bad incident with my GSD. He growled about the procedure, as I thought he might, and one time whipped his head toward the vet. I had wanted to be responsible and keep everyone safe. And when all humans are safe, then my dog is also. I don't think he would've bit, but why even remotely chance it?

OP please condition your dog to a muzzle. Leerburg's website has info about it. A Baskerville muzzle is a good choice.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm happy about the positive feedback on muzzles because the peace of mind with children and company over or going to the vet would be nice. I don't see my dog as unstable and attacking but considering the incident I want to be responsible and not put others at risk. I did read up on leerburg and will now be getting a muzzle and getting him accustomed to it in a positive manner in addition to better behavioral training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. A dog nipping out of being in pain is not aggression that would be considered the dog communicating that your hurting me. Breaking up a dog fight and getting nipped to me doesn't equal dog on owner aggression. Me taking my dogs food, toy, water, etc... And the dog growling and biting me. That equals dog on owner aggression. Just a nip in that instance would not get the dog shot but he would learn that he doesn't nip me. Possibly through pain. Now when a dog bites with intent to cause harm not just a nip to warn that is when I would have no problem exterminating the dog. Maybe I expect way too much from my animals but to me that is not acceptable. I do use positive reinforcement training however, I also believe that physical corrections are needed also. I actually thought that positive only trainers would have been the ones to disagree with me more Than people who use both. But only because I would have contributed positive only as being an enabler to letting a dog think he has a right to bite an owner. So to the OP I truly hope you get things figured out and have many happy years with Bryce. But just keep in mind in any and all decisions made concerning Bryce or any future dogs. They are just dogs. We love them and we do all we can for them but at the end of the day they're still just a dog.


Actually, dogs do not only nip when they are in serious pain, like the examples I gave. They bite. The people they bite sometimes need stitches. Because when a dog is in serious trouble, some of them cannot control it. It is an animal instinct to attack and kill a seriously injured pack member, or maybe just a seriously injured pack leader. Not sure. But when animals are badly injured they bite to protect themselves from more pain, and also from being attacked and killed. Though I am not convinced they understand death when it comes to themselves.

But I was talking about bites, not nips. 

Other dogs can be having the vet pulling a stuck puppy out of one end, and not biting the owner on the other end holding her head. I am sometimes amazed at the amount of pain a dog will take without any aggression. But that does not mean that a dog that does lash out when in serious pain or trouble is not a good dog. It is an understandable reaction to a situation. 

I think there is an argument for that in this case. 

Some dogs resource guard. Most of us do not want to deal with this, but of the different types of aggression, I think this type is a lot easier to deal with. There are definite triggers, and you can generally through good training/leadership and good management limit the incidents going forward.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christine1125 said:


> I definitely am not willing to put children or others at risk. Especially not now. He will be crated when we have company for now which isn't often. I was considering getting a muzzle for him for when we have people over. Train him to like it for example when the muzzle comes out good things happen. Any advice on this? Good or bad idea?


Until you can trust the dog ... a muzzle is an excellent idea! 

I used one on my "formerly" human aggressive OS WL GSD, would he have "actually" bit someone??? I have no idea?? I wasn't going to take the chance!

A muzzle serves two functions when dealing with difficult dogs! It forces the dog to chill "because" he can't bite someone! And it helps the owner to relax ...because there dog can't bite someone!

Bare in mind my dog never growled at me! So for me it was easy I slapped a muzzle on him no problem!

But a more "intelligent" approach with what my be a more difficult dog, would look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_OcF1wbmnU

I am not an expert but ... Jeff Gellman is! You can PM him on FB and ask questions!

And "The Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog" are simple non confrontational techniques! 

Train the Place Command and use a muzzle for company. Cesar does that "negotiation with the dog" to approve company coming in thing!

I did not with my HA dog ...he goes to Place and kept company out of his face! Period end of story! Train "Place" and use a muzzle for company!

Show him how you "expect" him to behave!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> This is such a nasty, snide, remark that is completely unwarranted. It seems to be a constant theme in your posts whether PO is brought up or not. The person you responded to didn't bring up PO training. So why add a snide remark like that in your response. Especially in this context as if all positive only trainers are cheering dogs being killed. It's a disgusting comment.


Yes ... it my very well be a "nasty snide remark!" 

It's fully based on "my" experience with "PO" only trainer's on "Boxerworld" they have no solutions for dogs with serious freaking issues!

Spend enough time hearing about "PO" only fails and you get "Kinda cranky!" 

"They" will PTS "aggressive dogs! I "had" one and that is not what "I" chose as a viable solution! Anyone that gets to experience a living room of a full on "Red Zone" dogs gets a pretty quick wake up call! If you have not??? Good for you! 

Only ten percent of "trainers" can deal with such dogs! If you question that ask Jeff (solidk9training) he's on FB!

I cite "Pro's" that deal with serious freaking dogs with serious freaking issues! Full contact information is available to them, for people who have further questions!

Anyone that understands how "I" work is pretty much clear on "my" take on "PO" only trainers and dogs with "serious freaking issues!" I say PO only trainers cannot help them! 

But hey Jeff Gellman, has a standing "25,000" dollar challenge to "any" PO only trainer that can successfully rehab the type of dog's he deals with on a routine basis, using PO, only methods! No takers thus far??? 

Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

But ... if "your" certain "PO" works "with" all dogs??? Grab a bag of cookies and a clicker and step on up!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qT5Z03VMw

That is a dog that does not under the meaning of the word "NO!" So "PO" trainers here??? Yeah ... good luck with that!


"I had my problem dog and "I" did not once bother looking at "crap" advise from "PO" trainers, worked out fine for me! I solved "my" "HA" problem "force free" by looking at "trainers with real solutions" no big deal. Today "Rocky" is just a dog! I'm not that special! 

If people don't like my advise?? Then they don't have to follow it! Go ahead and hire a "PO" only trainer with your "difficult" dog and ...good luck with that!


Those that can do, those that can't PTS!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Moriah said:


> Muzzle training is a good thing. I spent weeks conditioning my GSD when he was about 6 months old because I read about it on the forum. The forum comments were about making sure your dog was conditioned to a muzzle as one never knew when a muzzle might be needed.
> 
> This past week I took my dog's muzzle with us for a vet visit. I have had the same vet for 30 years and we know each other very well. Before the vet had Simon get on the table to raise it, I said I was going to muzzle him. Now my GSD loves the vet and my vet said my dog is one that is vey popular with the staff. The most experienced tech says that my GSD is the best German Shepherd that is seen in their practice. But, I wanted to be responsible about insuring this was a good experience for all involved.
> 
> ...


 Even better than me with my first "muzzle/bubbled" dog! Good call, Good job! :toasting:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Is there anywhere I can go to get the proper way to measure for a basket muzzle online? I have a soft tape so I can get depth/width/distance from nose tip for example. It's going to have to be an online order - my local pet shop does not carry them.

Thanks


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Is there anywhere I can go to get the proper way to measure for a basket muzzle online? I have a soft tape so I can get depth/width/distance from nose tip for example. It's going to have to be an online order - my local pet shop does not carry them.
> 
> Thanks


I had no problem with Rocky but if your unsure, you could just call Leerburgh. Pretty sure he's got "GSD's" covered ...no pun intended.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Update- bryce is getting used to the muzzle. I have not left it on him for any period of time yet but with the command "in" he will put him nose into the Baskerville muzzle and leave it there until I give him a reward. "Sitting" on him has been working great. He has been able to calm down quickly and lay down for quite some time. We've also implemented me first down and up the stairs and he can follow when allowed. Also he is in "place" when the doorbell rings so I can answer the door without any barking. All in all these things have been going smoothly. We will be seeing a vet this week to discuss neutering and many phone calls will be made this week to trainers. We had company over for a couple of hours and he was crated during this time. 
On a side note, i was wondering if any one had any info on dog anxiety. Just throwing this out there because of the itching issues we've struggled with since we brought him home. He does display many symptoms of anxiety and I'm wondering if the growling and itching could be one of them? 
Thanks again.


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## Christine1125 (Jan 4, 2013)

Update- I have contacted two new trainers and a dog behaviorist. I've only had conversations with all 3 on the phone so far because Bryce was neutered last week. He had a cyst on his side that we had biopsied to be sure it was just a cyst (it was) so he has stitches that will not disolve. You will see hes wearing a shirt in the picture which keeps him from licking those stitches. He actually loves wearing it. He goes back to the vet on Tuesday to have the stitches removed. In addition to the neuter and cyst removal, our vet received apoquel- the new allergy drug that I was on a list for. We started that and almost immediately saw an improvement with his compulsive scratching/licking. It has been 9 days since that vet visit and so far we've seen a huge difference in Bryce's personality. He cannot get enough cuddles lately and has been able to just relax without the stress that seemed to come with all the itches. We have not had a single growling incident yet and it's nice to see our dog be able to relax. I'm not sure if he's just still healing/not feeling well, if neutering helped, or if the apoquel relieved him but so far things have been great. I do not trust him with company yet so he has been muzzled when we have people over (which he does not mind) and they have been instructed not to pet him. Fingers crossed things will continue to be good with him. He will be meeting with the trainers and behaviorist after the stitches come out. Thank you for all of your advice and kind words from those who care. I am not the kind of person to give up on a pet and I hope I never have to but time will tell.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

Christine - just an FYI - my rescue Riley was consistently itchy (even had her checked for fleas although she was on a preventative) until I started to add AllerG-3 Omega 3 supplements to her food (2000mg/capsule). She is now itch-free - not sure it will help your Bryce, but it certainly can't hurt!


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

OMG! Thank you for the awesome update, and the photo, Darth Vader T!!!
Just thanks, really thanks. I was lurking, and reading, so many dogs in trouble (a bundle of other posters/threads) and getting depressed about it all, and now this...thank you so much for the update. Made my day.
So happy it seems to be turning out, and yep, I bet the peace of mind using the muzzles gives helps everyone relax. 
Thanks.
He looks beautiful, btw.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't take things from mine. She was trained very early what "Leave it" and "Back" mean. Both of these were trained in the beginning as a game using a ball.
> 
> This comes in so handy for me and gets her out of the immediate area that is within "resource guarding range". I also use these two simple commands for anything from taking a bone, keeping her from getting wasp stings, eating mystery stuff on the sidewalk and many other situations.
> 
> I don't know if it's the best way, just something I stumbled on, but it works for me.


That sounds like a good plan. What do you tell her when you want her to drop something that she has in her mouth?


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Baillif said:


> All good practices of course but being able to do obedience with a dog and have the dog follow commands is a very different thing than dealing with aggression issues. The dog resource guards, that much is clear. The picture where you tried to remove fuzz and got snapped at and the one where your husband was confrontational around a food bowl are both likely resource guarding pictures.
> 
> You guys need to be very very careful about approaching him when he has taken possession over something until you find a trainer with the knowledge and experience to help you manage or fix that situation. You need to find a less confrontational less personal way to deal with it than your previous approaches because it has become very clear the dog knows he can beat you both physically, and any solution you try that is directly confrontational in nature in those pictures will likely result in a bite.
> 
> All your practices away from that picture of the resource guarding will NOT bleed over into respect for you in the picture of resource guarding. Dogs don't think like that or learn like that. They aren't familiar with the human concept of authority or rank structures. He could be perfectly loving and fine one moment then take possession over something and turn into a lion with you guys. You need to find professional help regarding that specific situation so that you can safety correct it, or take care to manage the dog very carefully so that he eats, has bones, toys in isolation away from you guys so that you don't allow him to practice the resource guarding further. This kind of thing can bleed over into bedspace or personal space or couch space too or even resource guarding of a person or room if you allow him to practice it a lot.


Bailiff-what do you do about a dog that is so closely bonded to you that they resourçe guard you? This happened to me. If it needs addressed in a different thread, let me know!


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