# Aggressive towards the cat (Possessive)



## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Bear is about 9 months now and he is starting to be a little aggressive towards the cat. If they walk by while he's got a bone, etc he growls and snaps. I keep them separated when he has things now. 

But tonight I had some cat food in the living room as we rescued a kitten and I was trying to get him to eat. Dexter my older cat come over and started eating it. Bear proceeded to go over to the dish (He knows he is not allowed to eat the cat food, he just cleans up crumbs on the floor around the dish), and got real close to Dexter's face and showed his teeth. So tonight, it wasn't his food, and he was nowhere near it when Dexter approached it. I quickly told him no and removed him from the situation. 

They are always separated when I am not here, and now I worry if I will ever be able to let Bear have free run of the house.

Any advice on how to handle the situation?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The growling was fine the snapping was always going to be a bit much. And now your seeing blow-back as it were.

So now you've given your dog a thorough and proper "time out" ... I doubt that will have much effect on him?? 

Don't worry I'm actually going somewhere here. 

In here you'll find all the usual solutions to Dog v Cat problems, The Place Command, Leerburgh and Joe Galaxy and there is also the proper use of an E-Collar as an option. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html

The growl ... my GSD with treats does/did that but no snapping! I decided to let the growl go and he quit getting bones to chew on. But he never snapped at the cats, that would have been a step too far for me!!

So the links above pretty much represent the solutions that will work but they take time.

Nowadays I'm starting to think a "Bonker" is the way to go. Towel wrapped in a rubber bands and you throw it at the dog! 

You say No and throw the towel at the dog and hit them with it! Creates an inhibition and delivers a crystal clear message! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbJQPek8F1Y

I finally saw a clip of being used specifically for a cat, awhile ago but can't find that one now. So this is not my idea it just makes a lot of sense to me!

Creating an aversion:
AggressionPractice

Not a cat but it does deliver a "consequence" to the dog "for poor choices" which is the same deal. The "Bonker" sends the message, if delivered with vigor and properly timed ... "don't screw with the Cat!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLOw6KkxqeI

Hmm I've found much more on "Place" since then so just gonna add it on here:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would start with not letting the dog eat any of the cat food-- no crumbs--nothing.


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The growling was fine the snapping was always going to be a bit much. And now your seeing blow-back as it were.
> 
> So now you've given your dog a thorough and proper "time out" ... I doubt that will have much effect on him??
> 
> ...


Horrible advice all over this post.

Throwing things at your dog? Electric collar? 

"But he never snapped at the cats, that would have been a step too far for me!!"

Dogs are SUPPOSED TO growl when something threatens their feed.

Trying to suppress their natural behaviour is wrong.

The solution to this problem in the OP is that all animals eat separately and are left alone until they're finished eating. There. Problem solved.

If the dog growls or shows teeth at an animal like a cat then it means the owner is not doing their job and being effective in separating the dog from the cats for feeding time.

A 'bonker'. Jesus wept, some people will buy anything. One born every minute though, as they say.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You sound like PETA.

Dogs have lots of natural instincts that are inappropriate or potentially dangerous in domestic situations. It can bleed over into protection over shoes or any object on the floor and not necessarily just as simple as put the pets up when eating, although to your credit it could be.

Suppression/redirection of natural behavior is training plain and simple. If you have a problem with that maybe you wouldn't want to domesticate an animal at all. Teaching dogs they are not allowed to aggress each other is completely appropriate. 

Get over yourself


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## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> You sound like PETA.
> 
> Dogs have lots of natural instincts that are inappropriate or potentially dangerous in domestic situations. It can bleed over into protection over shoes or any object on the floor and not necessarily just as simple as put the pets up when eating, although to your credit it could be.
> 
> ...


I sound like PETA? Is that supposed to be an insult?

Am i being insulted by someone for discrediting a post where the author decided it would be better to lob things at your animal rather than simply feeding it in another room? Are you for real? :laugh:

Watch any dog pack, be it wild wolves or wild dogs or even domesticated GSD's, and the most placid dog will bear teeth as a warning to tell the others to leave it alone. The other dog will learn not to go near the eating dog. I've witnessed it dozens and dozens of times. This has nothing to do with them being protective over shoes or any of that other nonsense. Those are completely separate behavioural issues.

With a cat, they might not get the 'don't go near because the dog is eating' and therefore might get closer than a dog that has had a previous warning would. That's why you feed in a separate room.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I do believe the cat food, was about the new kitten, not the dog?? But reading it again a couple of observations, if the OP's, "concerns" are concentrated around the situation described here??? 

In other words aside from this ^^^ no other issues?? If so, that's not really a dog v cat issue that's just a poor practices and management issue.

There is "Zero" reason for the dog to be "allowed" to eat crumbs the cat leaves??

Your creating an issue you don't have to have. My GSD is was the first dog I've had that ever gave any indication of "poor" manners as regards the cat and it centered around "food/treats!" 

No "snapping" but a low growl could be heard if he had treats and the cats got near. I was pretty ticked off but "the low growl" was pretty much it, so I let it go and made adjustments.

No bones soft treats only for years, it was a low growl from Rocky if the cats wondered over see what he had?? So it was me saying "Rocky!' and then "Cat!" Rocky would stop the cat would move along. Never had an issue eventually the cats stop evading his space, a finger snap a Psst sound or a squirt bottle can encourage the cats to stay clear!

And Rocky did not get bones at home, they took to long to consume and I have to many cats to keep an eye on! I will note however that he did have a bone a week ago in the living room and not a single cat (5 indoor cats) came near him while he chewed on it! 

The Dog should have been in "Place" or told to "Down" at a distance. You pretty much "allowed" this "situation" to occur through poor management practices.

If you keep "testing" the dogs tolerance with the cats by making poor management choices?? Then yes most likely at some point down the road you will have a "problem??"

So yeah you could just stop screwing around with the "food" thing and it would seem you'd have no problems??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Due to the massive size disparity, coupled with the ease with which a large dog can kill a cat, there is a zero tolerance policy in my house for any dog on cat aggression. 

Also, my less dominant dogs do not bare their teeth, growl, or exhibit any other such behavior towards my dominant dogs over food, bones or toys.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh please regale me with your observations on groups of dogs and their interactions. Just because it is normal behavior doesnt make it safe. I routinely put groups of 10-20 dogs together. Without human intervention there would be fights some brutal EVERY day. Instead there are none? Why because I keep the peace punishing aggressive behaviors and teaching dogs through corrections to yield to much more subtle signals.

When I correct a dog, even when it is hard and dramatic (from the dogs perspective) it is well timed and clear and i take care not to hurt the dog. Animals dont extend each other that concern or courtesy. They learn through interactions with me and each other to keep things civil. Leaving them to (work it out) is a horribly bad and irresponsible idea. 

Using punishment to teach a dog not to aggress a dog or another cat, if done clearly and appropriately innoculates the dog against further behavior issues like that. It keeps things safe. It is responsible dog ownership. Management by itself will always fail eventually.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Oh please regale me with your observations on groups of dogs and their interactions. Just because it is normal behavior doesnt make it safe. I routinely put groups of 10-20 dogs together. Without human intervention there would be fights some brutal EVERY day. Instead there are none? Why because I keep the peace punishing aggressive behaviors and teaching dogs through corrections to yield to much more subtle signals.
> 
> When I correct a dog, even when it is hard and dramatic (from the dogs perspective) it is well timed and clear and i take care not to hurt the dog. Animals dont extend each other that concern or courtesy. They learn through interactions with me and each other to keep things civil. Leaving them to (work it out) is a horribly bad and irresponsible idea.
> 
> Using punishment to teach a dog not to aggress a dog or another cat, if done clearly and appropriately innoculates the dog against further behavior issues like that. It keeps things safe. It is responsible dog ownership. Management by itself will always fail eventually.


So what you're saying is a properly trained dog and proper management rather than attempting to avoid a situation with an inevitable outcome is better. This is good advice. As opposed to not correcting unwanted behaviors.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

More so than that i have a problem with anti punishment people punishing people who dont believe the same stuff they do. They are the ultimate hypocrits.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The growling was fine the snapping was always going to be a bit much. And now your seeing blow-back as it were.
> 
> So now you've given your dog a thorough and proper "time out" ... I doubt that will have much effect on him??
> 
> ...


I didn't remove him from the situation for a time out, but for the safety of the cat. Even if I agreed with the "bonker" he is very submissive and will crouch at loud "NO!", so in his case I think it would be rather cruel. 


Chip18 said:


> The growling was fine the snapping was always going to be a bit much. And now your seeing blow-back as it were.
> 
> So now you've given your dog a thorough and proper "time out" ... I doubt that will have much effect on him??
> 
> ...


I didn't remove him from the situation for a time out, but for the safety of the cat. Even if I agreed with the "bonker" he is very submissive and will crouch at loud "NO!", so in his case I think it would be rather cruel.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

And I do separate them while they are eating. I was attempting to get this kitten to eat, sat on the couch for a minute and it happened. this wasn't a cat getting into the dog's food or treats, this was the dog blatantly walking across the room for no reason and showing his teeth. 

I realize now obviously the dog needs to not be a vacuum to cat food crumbs, but that does not excuse what he did. He knows it is not his, so what happens when the cat jumps on the couch and Bear snaps at him? Etc. 

The cat eats in the window Bear cannot reach, and Bear eats in the other room. At the same time twice a day. 



Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

To be clear, I have had a few different rescue kittens in the past few months I have found homes for. So if there is confusion how the dog cleans up crumbs in a window he can't reach, it's because the kittens were fed on the floor. The older cat is on a weight control food, obviously something malnourished kittens don't need.. the reason for the window. 

Not that it matters, just wanted to be clear.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Resource guarding is a natural instinct

I'm not big on correcting a dog for growling but it depends on the situation. Seger sometimes thinks the table that I'm preparing their food on belongs to him. Get your butt out of my kitchen right now. I would correct him for eating the cat food which he is not supposed to be eating. However, there is no reason to be growling just because another animal walks by.

As for as the resource growling, I have found counter conditioning to work best along with just giving your dog a place to go to chew where he doesn't feel the need to growl.

What worked for me, along with a vocal correction, was to give the dog pieces of high value food as the other animal walked by. Eventually, had the other animal sit by while feeding high value food.

I always have the crate open for Seger as well. He prefers to take his chews, whatever they are, in there and eat them with his back to everyone else. It's his. I gave it to him. Have at it. Nobody is allowed to bother anyone else.

It's about changing how they view the other animal in relation to their resource. Sometimes it's just about picking your battles and management as well.

ETA: If you are allowing him to clean up crumbs from the floor but not eat at other times, you are sending mixed signals. Be clear in what you want. Eating here but not there is not clear.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

finndog said:


> Horrible advice all over this post.


 Why thank you! If I ticked off an apparently P+ only proponent??? Then I'm on the right track!

Ed Frawley, Joe Galaxy and well me! Are all there ( myself up to 17 cats and 5 dogs and 15 years and "zero" Dog V Cat issues!) 

Oh and this just in ... as I type Rocky, is outside, eating, less than a foot above his head on the patio table also eating is a "stray" feral cat that does not belong to me!

The cats eyes get big if I go to the door but the OS WL GSD (113lbs,) eating a foot away from him?? The cat never gives him a glance and Rocky completely ignores him (the stray). 

That is the level of performance I expect from my dogs! And that is the level of advice I give. The Dog Never chases the Cat! Not my Cats not any Cats!

The OP's dog is not really a problem, adjustments in the "OP's" behaviour and it should all be good! 

BUt .... Dogs and Cats both get rehomed because people are at a lost as to how to solve the problem and many, turn by and large to P+, only trainers! And unless they can phone in Joe Galaxy??? Those "trainer's" can't help them! Some know that instinctively, and don't even bother, case in point Cowabunga:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...41810-rescued-my-first-gsd-few-questions.html

Cat v Dog all hands on deck with that one! Lots of us in PM's tried to help keep that dog in that home! The owner was terrified for his Cat, and the Cat was there first! It was a fail the dog was returned to rescue! 

Perhaps if that owner knew that "hitting" the dog with a "towel" could have solved his problem ...that dog would still be in that home today! 

Perhaps you also object to "Sit on The Dog" and "The Place Command" because that advice is also in my "Horrible advice??"

Not everyone is "lucky" enough to have an "easy" Dog v Cat situation. For those that have a "real" problem, they need "real" solutions! 

Such Dogs need to be "convinced" that screwing with the Cats is not a "good choice!" Towels and rubber bands are a lot cheaper than an E-Collar. And apparently if used correctly can be just as effective! 

My advice is from "Pro's" that can solve people's problems, all the references are there if people have questions they can go straight to the source and ask them. My post is called, "advised" I put "solid" information out there and people are free to do as they see fit with it!

I'm impressed that Bailiff is taking the time to "inform" you as it were?? Many of us find a lot of "value" in the insight he provides! 


As for myself ... you should be flattered, I usually don't bother to respond to folks that don't believe in saying "NO" to a dog and providing "consequences" for a dog making poor choices!

If I want to know what "doesn't" work for a "dog with serious issues" I'll log back into "BoxerWorld" as "Gunther" and see what the clueless do! :crazy:

Carry on all.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

amburger16 said:


> I didn't remove him from the situation for a time out, but for the safety of the cat. Even if I agreed with the "bonker" he is very submissive and will crouch at loud "NO!", so in his case I think it would be rather cruel.
> 
> I didn't remove him from the situation for a time out, but for the safety of the cat. Even if I agreed with the "bonker" he is very submissive and will crouch at loud "NO!", so in his case I think it would be rather cruel.


I kinda got that I "overstated" but I understand! 

Now you "know" a dog and his food can be a "risky" so it's all good.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Punishing the dog for an unwanted behavior is the whole point of the bonk. Dog is sensitive? Good. Should take less reps to get the point across and eliminate the behavior. If you consider getting hit with a soft rolled up towel cruel thats just rediculous. Theyre dogs theyre not made of glass.

Punishment is not an enjoyable thing thats the whole reason they avoid behaviors that cause it to happen and then guess what? The problem is gone and you dont have to do it anymore.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Punishing the dog for an unwanted behavior is the whole point of the bonk. Dog is sensitive? Good. Should take less reps to get the point across and eliminate the behavior. If you consider getting hit with a soft rolled up towel cruel thats just rediculous. Theyre dogs theyre not made of glass.
> 
> Punishment is not an enjoyable thing thats the whole reason they avoid behaviors that cause it to happen and then guess what? The problem is gone and you dont have to do it anymore.


I have no problem trying methods and don't think he is made of glass. It's hard to try something when there is conflicting advice everywhere about corrections and what is appropriate. I don't believe in positive only, I know sometimes there needs to be a negative to stop behaviour. 

I simply don't want him to fear me.. obviously I know a towel isn't going to hurt him, but if he will cower to a yell, why wouldn't he cower everytime I lift my hand with something in it?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Why would the dog fear you if you punished only for behaviors you didnt like and the rest of the time things were great?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

amburger16 said:


> And I do separate them while they are eating. I was attempting to get this kitten to eat, sat on the couch for a minute and it happened. this wasn't a cat getting into the dog's food or treats, this was the dog blatantly walking across the room for no reason and showing his teeth.
> 
> I realize now obviously the dog needs to not be a vacuum to cat food crumbs, but that does not excuse what he did. He knows it is not his, so what happens when the cat jumps on the couch and Bear snaps at him? Etc.
> 
> ...


OK now your, starting to "over think."

This was simply resource guarding the dog considered the cat's food as being his, regardless of the circumstances that was, the dogs take. 

Rocky was right by my feet with his treats when a Cat approached (this was years ago)?? I heard the low growl he never moved just the growl and my eyes were wide as saucers!! I said "Rocky" he stopped and I then said Cat and the Cat's moved away.

That was it that was my correction "verbal" for both the Dog and the Cat's! Rocky never escalated and I never had need, to escalate the "correction!"

I took the "growl" as a warning that "here" was a situation that needs to be addressed and "verbal" worked out fine for me.

If the status quo, is fine with you (feeding in separate areas) then you don't need to do anything! If you want to prepare for the unexpected then you need to increase the "pressure" on the dog to behave.

Joe Galaxy has some long drawn out process that involves feeding the dogs and cat's within proximity of each other. Dog on the floor cat on the table in the same room eventually.

I believe it's in here:
Cat-to-Dog Introductions | Little Big Cat

The only reason to "push" is because it gives you a "safety" factor! The dog learns the cat is a "Pack" member and is to be respected! So if somehow a cat does wind up in his face at meal time he will be much less prone to attacking it! 

If the dogs and the cats "always" eat meals in separate locations ...your, playing with fire. In my view, they should be able to respect each others space. A leash on the dog and the use of No, Down or Place (once trained) and a pssst or finger snap or a spray bottle for the cats should be all you need with this dog??

And I also don't correct a dog for growling, I take it as useful information that my dog has a situation that needs to be addressed and it's my job to best figure out how to address it and that is what I do.

I have heard some "Pro's" say that you can correct for growling?? I don't know someone else can take that one if they so chose.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Behavior is like a chain we established that in another thread. When it comes to aggression to eliminate it in the most surefire way, and this goes for any behavior, you want to punish in a way that stops the progression of the rest of the behavior in order to prevent the dog from practicing any part of the behavior. 

So for aggression if you notice your dog starts an attack behavior with a certain kind of glance you stop it there you dont wait for the behavior to progress.

Think of it this way. You have a dog misbehaving in a crate it nuisance barks. But lets say the dog whines loudly before it goes into barking episodes (working its way up into them). Do you wait for the dog to bark for 5 seconds before correcting or do you get it the second it starts to whine. The answer for clarity should be pretty clear. You want to knock out the very first chain in the sequence of behaviors. So if your dog starts with a growl then you punish that. The dog might even stiffen before that and you might need to work even earlier up the chain.

Decent trainers correct the behavior. The best trainers stop the behavior at the precursors as soon as they see intention.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ba
Sign in dropdown￼ Passwordillif;7411666 said:


> Behavior is like a chain we established that in another thread. When it comes to aggression to eliminate it in the most surefire way, and this goes for any behavior, you want to punish in a way that stops the progression of the rest of the behavior in order to prevent the dog from practicing any part of the behavior.
> 
> So for aggression if you notice your dog starts an attack behavior with a certain kind of glance you stop it there you don't wait for the behavior to progress.
> 
> Think of it this way. You have a dog misbehaving in a crate it nuisance barks. But lets say the dog whines loudly before it goes into barking episodes (working its way up into them). Do you wait for the dog to bark for 5 seconds before correcting or do you get it the second it starts to whine. The answer for clarity should be pretty clear. You want to knock out the very first chain in the sequence of behaviors. So if your dog starts with a growl then you punish that. The dog might even stiffen before that and you might need to work even earlier up the chain.


 Aww ... I get this! I think it's safe to say .. that "none "Pro's" want to understand "the why" of the growl and we work from that. 

I'm not saying that's "correct" but that is what "we" tend to do.



Baillif said:


> Decent trainers correct the behavior.


I get this. Did it with the growling, I did allow it but I understand your point!



Baillif said:


> The best trainers stop the behavior at the precursors as soon as they see intention.


Yes ... I remember my opportunity to do just that! Lost the window! Four more fights to ensue! I got stitches in my hand from that screw-up!!

If Hitting "Rocky" in the head with a "freaking towel" could have avoided future "problems???" Yeah, I'm all in!

Thanks for this "post!" Not sure how many others get it ...but "I' do!


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ... I get this! I think it's safe to say .. that "none "Pro's" want to understand "the why" of the growl and we work from that.
> 
> I'm not saying that's "correct" but that is what "we" tend to do.
> 
> ...



I have started feeding them in the same room with Bear on a leash, only needed one correction the first time. I don't allow him near the cat's dish at all anymore and it seems to be going better.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well it sounds like you have it well in hand! So "lecture" mode is over. 

You basically "stumbled" onto the same situation I did. GSD. CAT's and treats! No outward anti-Cat behaviour was found. 

My guy never "snapped" but a low growl was heard? It was situation specific, I did not know of the "Bonker" at the time, if I had yep I'd have "Bonked" him! 

It would have trained "Rocky" at the Cats at the same time! I settled on a work around (that's what Pet People do! )

No more bones and if Rocky had treats and the cats wandered near him he would growl, I would say "Rocky!" he would stop, I would then say "Cat!" The Cats would wander away!

I then added a finger snap or a Psst sound aimed at the Cats! That worked out fine! * years and it has never been an issue by and large the Cats no longer go near him when he has treats. And outside, the outside cat take the occasional short cut under Rocky while eats! Rocky pays him no mind! 

You actually got a break by seeing this happen now! Another 5 to 6 months the issues would be much harder to solve, you would "need' a "Bonker!" 

OK I said no more "lecture" but having faced the GSD treats and Cats thing ...here's an "observation!" 

You can train the Cats to stay clear of the Dog while he has treats! Pretty easy actually! Give the dog treats in "Place" if the Cats wander over to investiagate?? A Psst sound, a finger snap a squirt bottle or a sudden movement and they will scurry away! 

You don't "need" to do this if the dog is under control but it's a good behaviour for the Cat's to have ingrained into them "just stay clear" when the dog is eating. 

I did mention the "Place Command" don't know if I posted that info for you??? It's in the Cat threads I belive but let me know.


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