# Breeder Now Has Deposit & Now No Communication



## missbetsy

We had to put our 11 1/2 yr. old GSD down last month. We went back to the breeder where he came from and are dealing with a daughter that took over after her mom passed away. I was told on Aug. 1st that a litter of pups were due to be born Aug. 11th. I sent a deposit and filled out the application. I asked to please let me know when it was received. Did not hear so I checked and saw the $400 deposit was cashed on Aug. 5th. Several of my e-mails went unanswered and the phone was either busy or rang repeatedly without a machine to leave a message throughout August. Earlier this week I finally get an e-mail just telling me they were busy and the dog had no puppies. Asked me to call their cell phone the next day. I did and left a message. Waited 2 days and again left another message on her cell phone. I don't know how to handle this. I am beginning to wonder was I just lead to believe there were puppies when there weren't and where do I go from here? Obviously no communication and I don't like doing business like this. Any ideas?


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## Breitbach343

that is really messed up. did you sign anything or have any papers saying they are going to give you a dog? did you pay with a check or cash?


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## Miss Molly May

Take a ride to see them and see what's up


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## missbetsy

No, I didn't sign anything. Initially spoke on the phone for 45 minutes. Filled out a 3 page application and sent a check. Her Mom was seemingly well known in the Shiloh Shepherd community. Thing is I am in NJ and she is about 5 hours north of me in NY.


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## Breitbach343

well you at least have a paper trail for where your money went. I would call again and leave a message telling her that you want your money back since you didnt get a dog from the promised litter. If after a couple days and still nothing, call again and tell her if she refuses to do so youll contact her local police department. If you had signed papers saying your getting a dog with your deposit, you would have no problem getting your money back. From a legal point. But you do have a paper trail so hopefully she's refund your money and if not hopefully the police will catch her so she cant do this to anyone else. I hope everything works out. Good luck.


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## erfunhouse

We dealt with this  unfortunately we didn't get our $600 deposit back!


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## missbetsy

Breitbach343 said:


> well you at least have a paper trail for where your money went. I would call again and leave a message telling her that you want your money back since you didnt get a dog from the promised litter. If after a couple days and still nothing, call again and tell her if she refuses to do so youll contact her local police department. If you had signed papers saying your getting a dog with your deposit, you would have no problem getting your money back. From a legal point. But you do have a paper trail so hopefully she's refund your money and if not hopefully the police will catch her so she cant do this to anyone else. I hope everything works out. Good luck.


Thank you for the idea of calling the local police there. I will attempt another phone call or two and give her until after Labor Day and then go from there.


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## missbetsy

Oh no! Do you mind me asking why it didn't get refunded?


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## erfunhouse

We had no response from them and are HUGE believers in karma. Hubby was going through the police academy and didn't want to create waves either. So....along came our great Metro through rescue and we kinda figured "we got this great dog for $100, and lost a $600 deposit- it's about even". 


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## JakodaCD OA

I think the cops will say it's a civil matter.

I would call the cell phone one more time, tell them you are now taking legal action AND calling THEIR local newspaper unless you receive a refund within xxx amount of days.

If it is who I think it is,,I haven't heard good things about their practices 

You could also say you'll be visiting them with the local police and a news crew 

Honestly I'd be real po'd,,it sounds like they are giving you the run around , busy or not, it's common courtesy to keep puppy buyers happy and informed when appropriate


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## Dainerra

send a certified letter, that way you have proof of delivery. with a $600 that is small claims court so pretty cheap to file. 
3 weeks is more than enough time for them to return a quick phone call or drop an email to the people who put a deposit on the litter.


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## missbetsy

erfunhouse said:


> We had no response from them and are HUGE believers in karma. Hubby was going through the police academy and didn't want to create waves either. So....along came our great Metro through rescue and we kinda figured "we got this great dog for $100, and lost a $600 deposit- it's about even".
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I understand and it is good you are able to feel like it worked out for you. I was just curious how you handled it. The part that somebody took our money that my husband works hard for is tough but then I just can't understand people doing something like this. We were heartbroken when we put our GSD down last month and it helped a bit thinking we were getting another puppy from the same place.


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## missbetsy

Dainerra said:


> send a certified letter, that way you have proof of delivery. with a $600 that is small claims court so pretty cheap to file.
> 3 weeks is more than enough time for them to return a quick phone call or drop an email to the people who put a deposit on the litter.


Definitely doing a certified letter this week to her. Thought about small claims court but the fact it has to be filed where they do business will cost more for us than the $400 deposit. A good 5 hour drive to appear which means my husband would have to take off work etc.. At this point I hate the fact that it appears I am not the first one she has done this to.


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think the cops will say it's a civil matter.
> 
> I would call the cell phone one more time, tell them you are now taking legal action AND calling THEIR local newspaper unless you receive a refund within xxx amount of days.
> 
> If it is who I think it is,,I haven't heard good things about their practices
> 
> You could also say you'll be visiting them with the local police and a news crew
> 
> Honestly I'd be real po'd,,it sounds like they are giving you the run around , busy or not, it's common courtesy to keep puppy buyers happy and informed when appropriate


Yes, I was searching last night and I believe you are right about it being a civil matter. I like the idea of a news crew. Yes, I would like my money back but I am more hurt and upset that this woman did this and appears to have done it before. I trusted her because we had gotten our previous GSD from her Mom. A certified letter will go out this week and if a deposit isn't return in a reasonable amount of time I will go from there. Is there an organization of some sorts that I can be in touch with? How can she be a registered breeder with Shiloh Shepherds and do this? Is there some way legally I can let others know what she is doing?


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## erfunhouse

Don't get me wrong- we were mad!!!!!! BUT I always look at it as karma----we didn't flip and got a great dog anyway; as for their part? Don't know, now I don't care. 


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## JakodaCD OA

I would look up the parent club she is associated with,,I know there are a couple of them I believe when it comes to shilohs, and file a complaint with whomever heads it


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## GSDElsa

Where in NY is this breeder?


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## ten3zro

In addition to being a civil matter, it's also theft. If she took your money without intending to provide you with a puppy, that's theft by deception. I would include in the letter that you believe she never intended to give you a puppy and has defrauded you. No response, and I'd attempt to file charges. If she advertises as a breeder I would also contact the state attorney general's office. They all have consumer protection divisions. Good luck.


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## missbetsy

GSDElsa said:


> Where in NY is this breeder?


Fillmore, NY


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would look up the parent club she is associated with,,I know there are a couple of them I believe when it comes to shilohs, and file a complaint with whomever heads it


That was my thinking also! I see I am not the first this has happened to with her. Her 3 sentence e-mail commented she had been busy. Many of us are busy but don't tell me to call you the next day and then not return my call in a reasonable time frame. I will see this through.


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## missbetsy

ten3zro said:


> In addition to being a civil matter, it's also theft. If she took your money without intending to provide you with a puppy, that's theft by deception. I would include in the letter that you believe she never intended to give you a puppy and has defrauded you. No response, and I'd attempt to file charges. If she advertises as a breeder I would also contact the state attorney general's office. They all have consumer protection divisions. Good luck.


Thank you, thank you! All good points that I am making a note of!


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## Jelpy

I had a similar problem last summer with a sleeze I purchased a gate from.........he never delivered. I filed a police report (they take it even if they believe it's a civil matter) and sent him an email informing him that I had filed a theft report and that any news reports, letters, emails or newspaper ads that stated he had been accused of theft were accurate and could not be considered libelous or inaccurate. He coughed up the money the next day. The scumbag. 

Jelpy


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

GSDElsa, Shiloh, not GSD. Looks like a number of litters up and coming? Who knows when people update.

Fillmore is in Allegany County NY so that you can orientate yourself to services, media, and information. The dog control agencies in that and neighboring counties are probably unable to help, but might be aware of information that could be.


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## missbetsy

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> GSDElsa, Shiloh, not GSD. Looks like a number of litters up and coming? Who knows when people update.
> 
> Fillmore is in Allegany County NY so that you can orientate yourself to services, media, and information. The dog control agencies in that and neighboring counties are probably unable to help, but might be aware of information that could be.


Yes, Shiloh & judging from the way this is being handled who knows how long it has been since the upcoming liters was updated. At this point though I don't trust her because of her lack of communication. She could string me along for months with promises as I see she has done to a few others. I left another message earlier today asking for my $400 deposit back plus I will follow up with certified mail. How long do you think is an appropriate time to expect my deposit back before I take this further?


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## Von Richter

Missbetsy, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. All of these caring folks have given good advice. Especially the one about determining any clubs the breeder is associated with and contacting them to report. Not to mention the Better Business Bureau and the American Kennel Association (most have contact pages or direct emails). I hope your deposit is returned and her reputation is restored, but if not, then perhaps your efforts will keep this from happening to someone else. Good luck in your efforts and search for a new puppy.


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## missbetsy

Von Richter said:


> Missbetsy, I'm so sorry this has happened to you. All of these caring folks have given good advice. Especially the one about determining any clubs the breeder is associated with and contacting them to report. Not to mention the Better Business Bureau and the American Kennel Association (most have contact pages or direct emails). I hope your deposit is returned and her reputation is restored, but if not, then perhaps your efforts will keep this from happening to someone else. Good luck in your efforts and search for a new puppy.


Yes, they have helped and I have written down all suggestions should I need to take this further. Hoping that she does the right thing and returns my deposit and we both can move on. If she continues like this however I am hoping that others will be more cautious than I was prior to dealing with her. I realize now I should have done a bit more research. It was just 2 days after we had to put or Shiloh Shepherd down when I spoke to her and she was so convincing about the upcoming liter. Obviously I wasn't thinking clearly. Thank you so much for your kind words. I will continue to "look" for our new family member!


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## Deer Dave

I hope this turns out good for you...I was just wondering if this forum has something like a wall of shame for when it has been proven that a breeder has purposefully wronged someone. This would be really helpful for other people considering buying a new puppy and it would deter some people from doing this in the first place.


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## VSGSD

Well she certainly wasn't too busy to talk to you into placing a deposit, nor was she too busy to cash your deposit. At the very least, she should have confirmed pregnancy before ever cashing your deposit...the female was only 6 days away from her due date when she cashed your check, I don't understand how she would NOT know that her female was not pregnant. The whole situation is very unethical of her! What I would do, is send her a certified letter stating that you will contact the BBB, file a complaint on rippoff report (which will pop up at the top when you google her kennel name) and file a complaint with the Shiloh club/registry she belongs to, give her a time to respond and refund your deposit...if that does not happen, then do all of the above things. Honestly, I would not purchase a puppy from her, if she is this incredibly shady with deposits who knows what other things may be hiding in her breeding program and if she would stand behind health problems produced in her puppies.  So very sorry this happened to you.


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## Jax08

Deer Dave said:


> I hope this turns out good for you...I was just wondering if this forum has something like a wall of shame for when it has been proven that a breeder has purposefully wronged someone. This would be really helpful for other people considering buying a new puppy and it would deter some people from doing this in the first place.



It only takes a google search to find the breeder talked about in this thread.

No, naming a breeder and negative comments about breeders are not allowed. It opens the owners of the site to libel.


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## selzer

Actually, she might not know a week in. If she did not x-ray, and the jury is out as to whether x-ray is actually not good for puppies in utero and bitches while pregnant. I mean if you have to, because there is a problem, you have to, but not everyone x-rays to confirm pregnancy and count puppies. If she did not progesterone test to determine the date of ovulation, and this is totally unnecessary in most cases, she probably does not know exactly the date of a possible litter, and since you can breed and tie for a week, she may have given the first day puppies were likely to appear, but waited the extra week, as she may still have been pregnant. I like to wait several days to a week after pups are born to let people know, so I know how many there will be of each sex. 

Check the website and any paperwork she sent you. Some people do not refund deposits regardless, but it should be spelled out that the deposit will be moved to another litter. And, what is common practice is to return a deposit if you cannot deliver, but to move a deposit to another litter if the buyer does not want to take a specific pup or needs to wait for some reason. 

The lack of communication is a problem. I do not like to accept deposits until puppies are on the ground. But sometimes they come in. And yes, I will cash them because checks must be cashed in a timely manner. They really probably are busy, but they should have answered your calls and/or emails. I would send them another email, and tell them to send your deposit back. You might want to let them know that if you do not receive it within 7 or 10 days, you will be forced to file a claim. That may do the trick. I hate it, but it will probably bring results. Just be sure that you read whatever there is about deposits, so that if it says specifically that no deposit will be returned in any event, threatening, with a civil suit is probably not the way to go. And it may make more sense to ask, when a puppy will be available. 

I am sorry you are going through this.


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## CelticGlory

If I found the correct website the site wasn't update until 2012. What method did you use to pay the breeder?


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## missbetsy

VSGSD said:


> Well she certainly wasn't too busy to talk to you into placing a deposit, nor was she too busy to cash your deposit. At the very least, she should have confirmed pregnancy before ever cashing your deposit...the female was only 6 days away from her due date when she cashed your check, I don't understand how she would NOT know that her female was not pregnant. The whole situation is very unethical of her! What I would do, is send her a certified letter stating that you will contact the BBB, file a complaint on rippoff report (which will pop up at the top when you google her kennel name) and file a complaint with the Shiloh club/registry she belongs to, give her a time to respond and refund your deposit...if that does not happen, then do all of the above things. Honestly, I would not purchase a puppy from her, if she is this incredibly shady with deposits who knows what other things may be hiding in her breeding program and if she would stand behind health problems produced in her puppies.  So very sorry this happened to you.


Thank you for your comments. The fact that she is having no communication with me at this point is raising a big red flag for us. I see we are not alone after an internet search so I choose not to deal with her at this point. If she can't even take the time to be in touch with me the whole month of August I am guessing getting my deposit back is not going to be easy.


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## missbetsy

CelticGlory said:


> If I found the correct website the site wasn't update until 2012. What method did you use to pay the breeder?


I sent a check on a Friday and it was cashed that following Monday.


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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> Actually, she might not know a week in. If she did not x-ray, and the jury is out as to whether x-ray is actually not good for puppies in utero and bitches while pregnant. I mean if you have to, because there is a problem, you have to, but not everyone x-rays to confirm pregnancy and count puppies. If she did not progesterone test to determine the date of ovulation, and this is totally unnecessary in most cases, she probably does not know exactly the date of a possible litter, and since you can breed and tie for a week, she may have given the first day puppies were likely to appear, but waited the extra week, as she may still have been pregnant. I like to wait several days to a week after pups are born to let people know, so I know how many there will be of each sex.
> 
> Check the website and any paperwork she sent you. Some people do not refund deposits regardless, but it should be spelled out that the deposit will be moved to another litter. And, what is common practice is to return a deposit if you cannot deliver, but to move a deposit to another litter if the buyer does not want to take a specific pup or needs to wait for some reason.
> 
> The lack of communication is a problem. I do not like to accept deposits until puppies are on the ground. But sometimes they come in. And yes, I will cash them because checks must be cashed in a timely manner. They really probably are busy, but they should have answered your calls and/or emails. I would send them another email, and tell them to send your deposit back. You might want to let them know that if you do not receive it within 7 or 10 days, you will be forced to file a claim. That may do the trick. I hate it, but it will probably bring results. Just be sure that you read whatever there is about deposits, so that if it says specifically that no deposit will be returned in any event, threatening, with a civil suit is probably not the way to go. And it may make more sense to ask, when a puppy will be available.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this.


Thank you so much for the pregnancy explanation. We were not understanding being told that a litter was due in approx. 10 days and then nothing. I was told after the pups were born she waits a week to post picture on the website. I see nothing on the website commenting about a deposit not being refunded. Again, lack of communication is the problem. She did say she was busy the middle of August and I didn't expect to hear from her during that time. Very understandable but at some point I did expect to be told something. When she finally responded via e-mail she told me to call on her cell the following day and then couldn't even respond back to me. If she won't even communicate with me then I can't even find out when or if there will be another litter at some point. From an internet search she has strung others along promising litters and then cut communication.


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## selzer

Uhg! I am not sure what your best course of action should be. No one should be able to fleece people of $400 with no repercussions whatsoever. If you do file in small claims court, I would add in the costs of filing and transportation needed to get to court. I would probably tell her I am going to file, or whatever, and give her that opportunity to produce your deposit. If you have a lawyer, a letter on letterhead, Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, might make a difference as well. Nothing like legal-Es to unstall a situation.


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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> Uhg! I am not sure what your best course of action should be. No one should be able to fleece people of $400 with no repercussions whatsoever. If you do file in small claims court, I would add in the costs of filing and transportation needed to get to court. I would probably tell her I am going to file, or whatever, and give her that opportunity to produce your deposit. If you have a lawyer, a letter on letterhead, Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, might make a difference as well. Nothing like legal-Es to unstall a situation.


Definitely not the way to do business. The distance makes it a bit hard to file in small claims. If she doesn't do the right thing I can only hope others do a thorough search on how she conducts her business.


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## onyx'girl

missbetsy said:


> We had to put our 11 1/2 yr. old GSD down last month. We went back to the breeder where he came from and are dealing with *a daughter that took over after her mom passed away*. I was told on Aug. 1st that a litter of pups were due to be born Aug. 11th. I sent a deposit and filled out the application. I asked to please let me know when it was received. Did not hear so I checked and saw the $400 deposit was cashed on Aug. 5th. Several of my e-mails went unanswered and the phone was either busy or rang repeatedly without a machine to leave a message throughout August. Earlier this week I finally get an e-mail just telling me they were busy and the dog had no puppies. Asked me to call their cell phone the next day. I did and left a message. Waited 2 days and again left another message on her cell phone. I don't know how to handle this. I am beginning to wonder was I just lead to believe there were puppies when there weren't and where do I go from here? Obviously no communication and I don't like doing business like this. Any ideas?


Makes me wonder if daughter took over moms good reputation with the thought that she could cash in on it. Probably doesn't even have any dogs breeding(hopefully), but taking deposits left and right. I'd be contacting BBB and start a facebook page...fb has a great track record for getting the fires stoked and sharing on those gsd pages with 10,000+ members will fuel the flames.


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## missbetsy

onyx'girl said:


> Makes me wonder if daughter took over moms good reputation with the thought that she could cash in on it. Probably doesn't even have any dogs breeding(hopefully), but taking deposits left and right. I'd be contacting BBB and start a facebook page...fb has a great track record for getting the fires stoked and sharing on those gsd pages with 10,000+ members will fuel the flames.


We had the same thought about using Mom's reputation. That can only last so long though. If my deposit isn't returned in a timely matter I will definitely report to the BBB. Never thought of Facebook though. Legally can I do that though?


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## onyx'girl

People get away with it all the time, FB is the new peoples court...lol 
trial by the peers and reputation gone before a sunrise/sunset. You don't have to name names, people figure things out quickly.


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## missbetsy

onyx'girl said:


> People get away with it all the time, FB is the new peoples court...lol
> trial by the peers and reputation gone before a sunrise/sunset. You don't have to name names, people figure things out quickly.


Very true!


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## Maik

missbetsy said:


> Definitely not the way to do business. The distance makes it a bit hard to file in small claims. If she doesn't do the right thing I can only hope others do a thorough search on how she conducts her business.


File in your state....no need to file in hers. I bet once she gets notification of the filing from the court, she will refund your money. I did this once before, with someone in a state not my own and the case was settled quickly. Worst case scenario, the woman fails to show up for the hearing. In that case you win and the case becomes a permanent public scar on her business.


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## Deer Dave

Jax08 said:


> It only takes a google search to find the breeder talked about in this thread.
> 
> No, naming a breeder and negative comments about breeders are not allowed. It opens the owners of the site to libel.


 
I suppose you are right. I just wish the negative feedback would hit them the hardest... right here...where most people would view it.

Never the less I guess we all should do our best to do our home work before we make a decision but sometimes we still get burned, such is life.


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## Smithie86

If someone contacts us looking for a puppy/dog, since they just lost their dog, we hold off selling them a puppy. People react differently and sometimes go out to replace what they just lost.


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## lalachka

Smithie86 said:


> If someone contacts us looking for a puppy/dog, since they just lost their dog, we hold off selling them a puppy. People react differently and sometimes go out to replace what they just lost.


So they'd just go someplace else. I would. I know you have good intentions but there ARE good homes that don't fit the mold and you're missing out on them. I didn't go to a breeder because I didn't think i'd get approved. I'm sure there are others like me. 

I know you're just trying to make sure your pups go to good homes but how is a home that just lost a dog a bad home??


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## missbetsy

lalachka said:


> So they'd just go someplace else. I would. I know you have good intentions but there ARE good homes that don't fit the mold and you're missing out on them. I didn't go to a breeder because I didn't think i'd get approved. I'm sure there are others like me.
> 
> I know you're just trying to make sure your pups go to good homes but how is a home that just lost a dog a bad home??
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have to say I was kind of surprised to read Smithie86's post regarding not selling a puppy to somebody that just lost one. I am 52 yrs old and like my husband we have always had at least 1 or 2 dogs ALWAYS in our lives. I cannot imagine our home without one. No dog can ever replace one that has passed but they do help mend a broken heart. Two weeks after our Shiloh Shepherd passed we rescued an 8 mo. old St Bernard/Bernese Mtn dog mix. He is such a sweetie and I feel like I hit the jackpot with him. Does he replace my previous dog? Not in any way but I feel like we rescued him and vice versa. When I spoke to this particular breeder she actually told me I would have my pick of the pups she felt appropriate for our family because we had a previous puppy from her. I realize everyone is different after their family pet passes. I have 2 friends that said they would never go through it again so therefore never got another dog. We are the total opposite and I would hope a breeder would never deny me a puppy because they would miss out on a loving home where they are such an important part of our whole family.


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## missbetsy

Smithie86 said:


> If someone contacts us looking for a puppy/dog, since they just lost their dog, we hold off selling them a puppy. People react differently and sometimes go out to replace what they just lost.


I am sorry to read this and would have never thought somebody would be denied a puppy or dog just because they recently lost their family pet. Is there a certain amount of time when one is allowed to replace another dog? As you said everyone reacts differently and for our family it was best to get another one as soon as we could. We thought we would just wait thinking we were getting the puppy in Oct. from this breeder but after 2 weeks of no dog in the house we couldn't stand it. I am so glad we did get our 8 mo. old mixed breed but I am still going to go ahead with another Shepherd when I can find a decent/reputable breeder.


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## Loneforce

MissBetsy this is the first time I have ever heard such a thing. I am sure you are fine to search for a new puppy for your home.


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## missbetsy

Deer Dave said:


> I suppose you are right. I just wish the negative feedback would hit them the hardest... right here...where most people would view it.
> 
> Never the less I guess we all should do our best to do our home work before we make a decision but sometimes we still get burned, such is life.


I wish it was possible to just be able to put the breeder "out there" for others to see but realize it isn't right. I am typically the first one to do my homework and check things out. When I called this breeder I was unaware her mom had passed and that she had taken over. Since our previous puppy came from them I figured all was good. She was so convincing about me getting a puppy from her and made it sound like it would be easy to get in touch with her whenever I had to ask anything. Me the trusting one and always giving the benefit of the doubt I thought how great that she was continuing in her mom's footsteps with the breeding. Had no reason to think otherwise. Lesson learned and will now be very cautious as we continue our search for a German Shepherd puppy.


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## missbetsy

Loneforce said:


> MissBetsy this is the first time I have ever heard such a thing. I am sure you are fine to search for a new puppy for your home.


Thank you so much! We will continue our search. I am in NJ but from internet searches it appears easier said than done.


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## lalachka

missbetsy said:


> I wish it was possible to just be able to put the breeder "out there" for others to see but realize it isn't right. I am typically the first one to do my homework and check things out. When I called this breeder I was unaware her mom had passed and that she had taken over. Since our previous puppy came from them I figured all was good. She was so convincing about me getting a puppy from her and made it sound like it would be easy to get in touch with her whenever I had to ask anything. Me the trusting one and always giving the benefit of the doubt I thought how great that she was continuing in her mom's footsteps with the breeding. Had no reason to think otherwise. Lesson learned and will now be very cautious as we continue our search for a German Shepherd puppy.


So would I. It was the logical thing to assume. I'm not even sure that a lesson can be learned here. I don't think there was anything you could've done to avoid this. 


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## alexg

missbetsy said:


> I wish it was possible to just be able to put the breeder "out there" for others to see ....


And why not list this 'breeder' including name and address so others might have a chance not to end up in the same situation as you?


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## missbetsy

lalachka said:


> So would I. It was the logical thing to assume. I'm not even sure that a lesson can be learned here. I don't think there was anything you could've done to avoid this.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you and I am guessing the only thing I could have done different was check the internet. Even with that though you are only reading one side. Now I see they also had no communication from this breeder despite attempts. One even said they sent several certified letters and still no response.


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## missbetsy

alexg said:


> And why not list this 'breeder' including name and address so others might have a chance not to end up in the same situation as you?


In an earlier post it was mentioned you can't give a breeders name and negative comments. With that said I do feel bad that somebody else just like me will end up frustrated just like me. Believe me if my deposit is not returned she will be reported to numerous places so that hopefully anybody doing a search will think twice before going to her.


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## JakodaCD OA

> And why not list this 'breeder' including name and address so others might have a chance not to end up in the same situation as you?


because Alex you are not allowed to bash breeders by name. If you read the rules when you joined you might have seen that.

You can always pm anyone with the breeders name, PM's are not monitored and you can say whatever you like


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## lalachka

missbetsy said:


> In an earlier post it was mentioned you can't give a breeders name and negative comments. With that said I do feel bad that somebody else just like me will end up frustrated just like me. Believe me if my deposit is not returned she will be reported to numerous places so that hopefully anybody doing a search will think twice before going to her.


Even if she returns it. Everything she did until now is not normal, you can't be that busy, no one is, not to have a minute to send an email. 

There's no excuse for no communication. 


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## missbetsy

lalachka said:


> Even if she returns it. Everything she did until now is not normal, you can't be that busy, no one is, not to have a minute to send an email.
> 
> There's no excuse for no communication.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Our thought exactly! We all have lives and we are busier some days more than others and I get that. However, to have waited 2 weeks after a litter was due to just send me a short e-mail saying there were no pups with no explanation was just wrong in our opinion. I still can't get over her telling me to call her cell the next day and then never returning my call. So easy to be in touch with people with so many different ways these days that there is no excuse.


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## lalachka

missbetsy said:


> Our thought exactly! We all have lives and we are busier some days more than others and I get that. However, to have waited 2 weeks after a litter was due to just send me a short e-mail saying there were no pups with no explanation was just wrong in our opinion. I still can't get over her telling me to call her cell the next day and then never returning my call. So easy to be in touch with people with so many different ways these days that there is no excuse.


She seems like a manipulator, just setting it up for the next turn of the story. So that she can say that you never called so it's your fault, or she never got the message, or she lost her phone...
But at least she tried.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Even if she returns it. Everything she did until now is not normal, you can't be that busy, no one is, not to have a minute to send an email.
> 
> *There's no excuse for no communication. *
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, there is. What there isn't any excuse for is a history of cutting off communication after taking deposits, and not producing puppies. 

If this was a single incident, she may have gotten into a car wreck or heart attack, and could be flat on her back in the hospital. 

Harder to have an excuse like that if you have a history of the behavior. 

I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like at best the breeder is stalling for time to get the money to send back, and at worst she is not even breeding dogs, just collecting deposits that people will not bother to chase after. Maybe she gives back money to those potential customers that appear to be willing to go farther to get their money back. Think about it, If you can collect 12 $400 deposits, that's $4800 in a year's time. If only six threaten to sue for their money back that's $2,400 that can be taken to the bank. It won't last forever as people become more computer savy, and people complain in different venues. But still, so long as she maintains one breeding pair, one would have a hard time proving that it was simply a scam.


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## lalachka

I also always give the benefit of the doubt but not in this case. I meant there's no excuse in for no communication for this case where we know she wasn't in an accident and where she keeps stringing the buyer along. 


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## lalachka

I think she was just collecting deposits and she's not breeding. I can't see a breeder act this way, she's killing her business. Her behaving this way to me means that she doesn't care about her reputation in the breeding world so is say she used her moms rep to collect deposits. 


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## missbetsy

My certified letter to the breeder went out today requesting my $400 deposit back. We'll see where it goes from here. I agree that she could be using deposits and just figuring people won't think it is worth going after her for it to be returned. I will pursue it and even if I don't get the whole amount back it will be just for my own satisfaction.


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## alexg

She is not a breeder, just a low level scammer.


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## Gwenhwyfair

missbetsy I've been following your thread, firstly so sorry for the problems and what a deep disappointment it must be on a lot of levels.

However, if you have the means to follow through, as you note below it's not only for your own satisfaction. If it does indeed end up in small claims court and the breeder is found to be at fault it will be a matter of public record at that point. You may help other people avoid the problems you have had. You are also sending a message to this person that they cannot always get away with this sort of behavior.

I hope for the best outcome for you and also that you find your new puppy/best friend very soon. 



missbetsy said:


> My certified letter to the breeder went out today requesting my $400 deposit back. We'll see where it goes from here. I agree that she could be using deposits and just figuring people won't think it is worth going after her for it to be returned. I will pursue it and even if I don't get the whole amount back it will be just for my own satisfaction.


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## Smithie86

lalachka said:


> So they'd just go someplace else. I would. I know you have good intentions but there ARE good homes that don't fit the mold and you're missing out on them. I didn't go to a breeder because I didn't think i'd get approved. I'm sure there are others like me.
> 
> I know you're just trying to make sure your pups go to good homes but how is a home that just lost a dog a bad home??
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It needs to be the right time for the owner and the puppy. Not just the puppy. We look at both. If it is right after the loss, it is a reaction to the loss and they want to replace exactly what they lost. People that we have talked to completely understand the reasoning behind and do not take offense to it at all.


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## blackshep

Gwenhwyfair said:


> missbetsy I've been following your thread, firstly so sorry for the problems and what a deep disappointment it must be on a lot of levels.
> 
> However, if you have the means to follow through, as you note below it's not only for your own satisfaction. If it does indeed end up in small claims court and the breeder is found to be at fault it will be a matter of public record at that point. You may help other people avoid the problems you have had. You are also sending a message to this person that they cannot always get away with this sort of behavior.
> 
> I hope for the best outcome for you and also that you find your new puppy/best friend very soon.


I agree!

I'm sorry for the loss of your previous dog and I hope you get your money back. What a crummy person she is.


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## Renofan2

First, so sorry you are going thru this and for the loss of you dog. Write to the Attorney General, state facts, copy of your check clearing your bank account, etc as well as all communications (emails, phone calls), etc. Once the Attorney General receives your letter, then they will send a letter to the breeder, requesting them to respond to the complaint. This may be just enough to have her send your deposit back. If this doesn't work, then at least file with small claims court. You can call and see if you can file from NJ. You can claim refund of your deposit, travel costs as well as the court costs, so this will be out of pocket money for her. I cannot imagine what type of defense she would have. Good luck. Just keep bombarding her with emails, calls, Complaint with the Attorney General and small claims court. Don't let her get away with it.


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## lalachka

Smithie86 said:


> It needs to be the right time for the owner and the puppy. Not just the puppy. We look at both. If it is right after the loss, it is a reaction to the loss and they want to replace exactly what they lost. People that we have talked to completely understand the reasoning behind and do not take offense to it at all.


Not true. Most people realize they can't replace what's lost, no 2 dogs are the same. However, many people (myself included) can't stand the thought of the home without a dog. 

Besides, how do uu decide when enough time has passed? Is a month OK? What about 29 days? 28?

U get the point. IMO you're wrong on this. 


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Not true. Most people realize they can't replace what's lost, no 2 dogs are the same. However, many people (myself included) can't stand the thought of the home without a dog.
> 
> Besides, how do uu decide when enough time has passed? Is a month OK? What about 29 days? 28?
> 
> U get the point. IMO you're wrong on this.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Agree with Lalachka on this. No two dogs are alike, nor are any two people alike. Some people may not be ready for another dog in a year or more, and others are much better off, getting another dog right away. People are way too complex for blanket statements to work on them. 

We can as breeders sell to whom we want, and have to make judgements about people and their motives and their suitablility for a puppy all the time. It may be that we feel a person is not ready for another dog, and we might make that call by the stuff they tell us over the phone. We may make a mistake, and the mistake should be on the side of our puppy. I would not make this an across the board flag though. It is just a piece of the pie, that we take into consideration.


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## Smithie86

That is why we ask what works for them. We do not automatically assume what is best for someone else.


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## Gregc

I'd be knocking on their door. Seriously. It's face to face time.

Greg


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## lalachka

Selzer, I've been reading old threads and came across you saying somewhere that it'd be nice if people researched before hand what it is they're buying as opposed to running to the Internet researching once their pup acts out and hopefully learning enough and doing the right thing or dumping them. 

That's my case, I knew the dog must be trained and exercised but that was it. But I learned a huge amt of info and have been going out of my way to make sure he's content. 

If I was a breeder I would probably not sell to me, you really never know what the person ends up doing. But at the same time a pup would miss out on a good home. I truly think my pup is better off than many others, I adore him and have made huge adjustments. 
But on the other hand, I myself would never think that I would do any of these things. 


It's a tough position to be in for breeders and I do understand the thought process. You'd rather be safe than sorry. 

It's a tough one. I'm not sure of the right way to go about it. 

My first impulse is to jump up and argue with anyone who says I wouldn't get a pup but I do understand that I was a risk and respect the breeders that are willing to deny people even if they might be wrong. After all they're just trying to make sure the pups are well taken care of. 

But it's hard reading these things and knowing that I personally might get denied)))))


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## Galathiel

That's ... confusing. On one hand, you say as a breeder you probably wouldn't sell to (someone) like yourself. On the other, that it's hard to read and know that you might get denied. Are you trying to defend the impulse buyer? Because just because it worked out for you, it does NOT end up well for a lot of others. Should a breeder that loves their breed and wants the best for the pups they brought into the world, take a chance on someone that decided that weekend that GSDs look cool and they need one? A responsible one would not.

As to the OP, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I hope you get some resolution from them and it doesn't have to go further. Very disappointing when you were anticipating a puppy and not only didn't get one, but lost money to boot!


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## lalachka

Galathiel said:


> That's ... confusing. On one hand, you say as a breeder you probably wouldn't sell to (someone) like yourself. On the other, that it's hard to read and know that you might get denied. Are you trying to defend the impulse buyer? Because just because it worked out for you, it does NOT end up well for a lot of others. Should a breeder that loves their breed and wants the best for the pups they brought into the world, take a chance on someone that decided that weekend that GSDs look cool and they need one? A responsible one would not.
> 
> As to the OP, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I hope you get some resolution from them and it doesn't have to go further. Very disappointing when you were anticipating a puppy and not only didn't get one, but lost money to boot!


It is confusing. In short I'm saying though I understand them not wanting to take a chance I still feel offended in a way that i'd be denied. 

But there's no need to assume impulse buyers get it because they want to look cool. In my case I've always loved GSDs and if I ever got a dog it'd be a gsd. So the impulse on my part was making the decision to get the dog period, not decision in the breed. 


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## jamhajny

This happened with us too. We sent $250 deposit on an $800 puppy and once the check cleared the breeder stopped answering calls, texts and emails. We lost our money and found a $350 puppy from the police academy with an OUTSTANDING pedigree! Some people!


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## fuzzybunny

I know exactly which breeder you're talking about and I would honestly run in the opposite direction. Try and get your money back and get a puppy elsewhere.


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## jmoney

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think the cops will say it's a civil matter.
> 
> I would call the cell phone one more time, tell them you are now taking legal action AND calling THEIR local newspaper unless you receive a refund within xxx amount of days.
> 
> If it is who I think it is,,I haven't heard good things about their practices
> 
> You could also say you'll be visiting them with the local police and a news crew
> 
> Honestly I'd be real po'd,,it sounds like they are giving you the run around , busy or not, it's common courtesy to keep puppy buyers happy and informed when appropriate





missbetsy said:


> I sent a check on a Friday and it was cashed that following Monday.





missbetsy said:


> My certified letter to the breeder went out today requesting my $400 deposit back. We'll see where it goes from here. I agree that she could be using deposits and just figuring people won't think it is worth going after her for it to be returned. I will pursue it and even if I don't get the whole amount back it will be just for my own satisfaction.



Actually, this is a crime. Multiple Misdemeanors and 1 Federal. The moment she requested that you send money, and you did so using USPS, that is considered mail fraud if she has no intention of fulfilling her bargain. Second, this is a civil matter as far as recovery goes. I don't know how restitution works in your jurisdiction, but rarely do people ever pay it after a criminal case is through. $400 is not a lot, but very recoverable. She made an offer, you accepted it and sent the money, the breeder has failed to perform. Granted you only have parol evidence and in the future I would suggest that anytime you send money to someone, get a signed agreement for what is to be done. I send "x" you give me "y" on or by "date". Paper > spoken every time. Statute of frauds applies differently everywhere and you never want to have just your word v theirs (which is called parol evidence, and in many cases is not permitted).

Personally, it sounds like they have a lot going on. After 30 days of no contact, I would send one more certified notice that within 20 days you will be filing criminal and civil complaints against her in whatever jurisdiction she resides.

0 Contact for 30 days to me shows clear intent they have no plan to execute their portion of the agreement. Cashing the check was a bad play on their part.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Selzer, I've been reading old threads and came across you saying somewhere that it'd be nice if people researched before hand what it is they're buying as opposed to running to the Internet researching once their pup acts out and hopefully learning enough and doing the right thing or dumping them.
> 
> That's my case, I knew the dog must be trained and exercised but that was it. But I learned a huge amt of info and have been going out of my way to make sure he's content.
> 
> If I was a breeder I would probably not sell to me, you really never know what the person ends up doing. But at the same time a pup would miss out on a good home. I truly think my pup is better off than many others, I adore him and have made huge adjustments.
> But on the other hand, I myself would never think that I would do any of these things.
> 
> 
> It's a tough position to be in for breeders and I do understand the thought process. You'd rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> It's a tough one. I'm not sure of the right way to go about it.
> 
> My first impulse is to jump up and argue with anyone who says I wouldn't get a pup but I do understand that I was a risk and respect the breeders that are willing to deny people even if they might be wrong. After all they're just trying to make sure the pups are well taken care of.
> 
> But it's hard reading these things and knowing that I personally might get denied)))))
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


At the risk of having my words taken out of context completely, and then more words put on me that I never posted, and not having a clue when or where and for what reason I said something to the effect that people should research first and not come here when they have problems, which is not my typical response, I am going to answer this. 

First of all, I doubt that I said this at all. What is the point, after people already have a pup and have problems to say that they should have known what they were buying, they should have factored in training. If I did, it may have been under some context, so it would be nice to be pointed to the post and thread. 

I mean a lot of threads become hen parties where everyone is saying that people should do this or that, etc. So I might have said something like, "Yes, it would be nice if people did their research first, but and the but would probably be something to the effect that everyone who gets a dog isn't spending a bajillion hours on a dog site prior, and now that they have the dog, and are having issues, they are here to get help.

But whatever. 

The answer is that you might be denied, but you will most likely not realize that the decision was made on my side of the deal. This is because I am not going to say, "Whaaaaaat!!!!! You duck taped rotted meat to your pup's muzzle for three days!?! That was how you _trained _the dog to not mess with the garbage??? And you seriously think I would sell you a dog!?! I'll let lightning strike her first!" 

Nope, I am going to talk to you, and let you hang yourself, and I will just say, "Oh really, did that work?" And then after some more stories about dogs, I will start taking the things that you are saying, and turn them around so that my dogs do not look desirable to you in particular. By the end of the conversation, you will think that whatever it was you said that threw me into a panic, was just as normal as can be, so that you WILL say it to other breeders, and you will be looking for an excuse to get off the phone without buying a puppy. 

Instead of walking away disappointed, feeling discouraged, or feeling angry, you walk away thinking about what it is you want, and where to find it. You're not mad at me, you're not trying to figure out what you should say differently to the next breeder. You may be a little better defined about what you are looking for.


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## lalachka

Selzer, I will find the thread, but I wasn't saying it in any bad way at all. It was just something that jumped at me and I wanted to comment on it. 


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## lalachka

selzer, here's the post but i actually agree with it, i just said that i always want to jump out and defend myself because i don't like feeling that i'd be rejected))))))

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/2566685-post53.html

as far as everything else, i don't think i would get denied if i went to a breeder now, i have a shepherd already, i learned a huge deal on how to train and feed and i think i'm doing OK. however, i'm almost sure i'd be denied if i tried getting my first dog there and that doesn't feel good)))))

that's all i'm saying, i'm not even saying that they'd be wrong to deny me, i'm probably the exception in that i ended up trying to learn everything i need and willing to work with him and not dump him.

so i definitely understand the breeders. just saying that it doesn't feel good knowing that i'd be rejected.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Selzer, I've been reading old threads and came across you saying *somewhere that it'd be nice if people researched before hand what it is they're buying as opposed to running to the Internet researching once their pup acts out and hopefully learning enough and doing the right thing or dumping them. *
> 
> That's my case, I knew the dog must be trained and exercised but that was it. But I learned a huge amt of info and have been going out of my way to make sure he's content.
> 
> If I was a breeder I would probably not sell to me, you really never know what the person ends up doing. But at the same time a pup would miss out on a good home. I truly think my pup is better off than many others, I adore him and have made huge adjustments.
> But on the other hand, I myself would never think that I would do any of these things.
> 
> 
> It's a tough position to be in for breeders and I do understand the thought process. You'd rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> It's a tough one. I'm not sure of the right way to go about it.
> 
> My first impulse is to jump up and argue with anyone who says I wouldn't get a pup but I do understand that I was a risk and respect the breeders that are willing to deny people even if they might be wrong. After all they're just trying to make sure the pups are well taken care of.
> 
> But it's hard reading these things and knowing that I personally might get denied)))))
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And this is the actual quote:
"I wish fewer people would see police dogs on TV or in public and with zero understanding what it takes to breed, buy, raise, exercise, or train them, and buy one for protection. Then, as an after-thought, or maybe because their puppy is a total nut job, they rush to the internet to learn about this little guy they brought into their home. With luck they get the bug, and learn what they need to know and then some. And then, they put down all the other GSDs out there because what they have is a "real" GSD. And then suddenly the rest of the GSDs out there have no business being alive or being bred. Whatever. I know a LOT of German show line dogs that are K9s. I know American Line dogs that have herding titles. The working line people have put forth the premise that other lines _can't _do the job and have claimed their temperament is not sufficient, not sufficient in nerves or in drive. But it is not necessarily true. But when people have interest in a dog for protection (and what they actually need and would do good with is a dog for a deterrent), they are steered toward working line dogs.

I think that working line dogs can do fine with ordinary people, most of them, just like show lines can do fine as well, most of them. Neither line has a monopoly on temperament or health problems."

I am sorry, but what I posted is far different that what you said that I said. By what you posted, it looks like I am complaining that people aren't bothering to research GSDs, and get them and then when they have problems, they come on here or dump them.

I was in fact discussing a specific issue with people getting a puppy as a protection dog, a puppy that is suitable for protection training, without having the first idea what they are looking for. The vast majority of GSDs out there are pets and will NEVER do any protection training. Some will do bite work, schuthund, where they go after the sleeve, but not even that many people are doing this, and this is not truely protection training, the kind of training that police dogs must have, and people who want a dog that will attack on command, bite on command, or guard something to the level of attacking.

I am not lambasting every member on here that posts when their dog has an issue. I am just wishing that people who want to get something that can be as dangerous as a loaded gun, maybe even moreso, as it has a brain of its own, would research that first. 

It may be better to link the post so that people can actually read what was written, and better yet, look back into a thread and figure out what the context was. Because it is understandable for people to get defensive when words are put in people's mouths.


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## CelticGlory

Now I'm curious to see what happens!!


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## Noles20

Smithie86 said:


> It needs to be the right time for the owner and the puppy. Not just the puppy. We look at both. If it is right after the loss, it is a reaction to the loss and they want to replace exactly what they lost. People that we have talked to completely understand the reasoning behind and do not take offense to it at all.


 
I'm not sure how you think you can say why they are getting a new puppy. Is that one possiblity? Sure. But there are many others as well.


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## Noles20

CelticGlory said:


> Now I'm curious to see what happens!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Me too!


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## missbetsy

Well I am back! Sorry for the delay here. I was basically waiting out this past week hoping for some communication from this breeder. Basically where I am at now is I did sent a letter to her which shows received on 9/5. This was my 3rd request for my $400 deposit back. Previously I requested it back in a phone message & e-mail. I will see this through because what she has done is wrong and she should not be in business. I have filed with the BBB & also made her name & business known on Ripoff Report. To be taking a deposit and then be non-existent clearly shows she doesn't plan on doing business with me. The fact that I am now hearing she is saying she has puppies? She made it all sound so good in that initial phone. I was looking over some of the comments of this past week and about breeders choosing who and who not to give a puppy to. I get that and if I were a breeder I would want to know my pups were going to a good home. We just rescued an 8 mo. old St. Bernard mix (a sweetheart) but my husband said he felt like we signed our lives away with all the paperwork and what you could & couldn't do. I had questioned the rescue group as to why this cute pup wasn't rescued sooner. I was told many applied for him however they go over each application very careful. One thing can dismiss the potential adopters. Lucky for us our yard is fenced in, we have had dogs all of our lives and I do not work outside the home. As I said earlier myself and my family all discussed and know that we could never replace a previous dog in our lives. They are all so different. Our home basically felt empty without a dog here therefore the rescue. We hit the jackpot with him as he is one of the most affectionate dogs we have ever had. Also this past week we met with a fantastic, reputable GSD breeder in southern PA. We have a deposit down and are hopeful that with an upcoming litter there might be a puppy for us. If not we have no problem waiting for the right one. This current breeder has been very professional as should be. I will keep everyone posted here on how this turns out. I believe now after hearing she is telling people there are puppies that the local police where she lives will be getting a phone call from me tomorrow morning.


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## missbetsy

Renofan2 said:


> Wanted to let you know - I emailed the breeder that I think you are talking about and asked about a litter. She responded she has a litter that is 6 weeks old right now and co owns a litter in Canada and co-owns a litter due in NC. I will instant message you to confirm it is the same breeder, because if it is she is claiming to have pups.


Thank you, thank you for doing this for me! I messaged you back. I didn't check here last week giving her the benefit of the doubt and hoping to get my deposit back. I cannnot believe she is claiming to have 6 wk old pups. The litter was to be born around 8/11 however in her e-mail to me she said the dog did not have any. I have gone through every scenerio in my head. Nothing comes out in her favor. If my application was not up to her standards then my check should not have been cashed. She even told me because we had a previous puppy from her place when her mother was the breeder that I would get first pick. I am not going down quietly on this!


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## missbetsy

Not much update on this thread as the breeder still has not responded. I submitted a complaint with the BBB who notified her by e-mail this past Monday the 16th. I decided to give her the 2 weeks that the BBB gives her to reply back prior to me calling the police in her area. I know if somebody complained that I took their money and that I had no contact with them I would be doing everything possible to make the situation right. She obviously doesn't care. The fact that she hasn't replied to the BBB just makes me feel like she really is not a nice person. I feel bad for anybody that deals with her or should I say tries to deal with her. Just have to wonder how many people she gets deposits from and then keeps the money. I couldn't sleep at night.


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## Neko

I wonder if something happened. This is so strangle and thanks for keeping us updated. Sorry you are dealing with this.


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## missbetsy

Neko said:


> I wonder if something happened. This is so strangle and thanks for keeping us updated. Sorry you are dealing with this.


Thank you and I find it strange also. I just cannot wrap my head around this. She obviously is checking her e-mails as she responded to somebody else in this forum when they questioned her about puppies.


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## Neko

missbetsy said:


> Thank you and I find it strange also. I just cannot wrap my head around this. She obviously is checking her e-mails as she responded to somebody else in this forum when they questioned her about puppies.


If you need me to send any emails out just for a test, I can help as well.


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## Gwenhwyfair

MissBetsy - IMHO you are doing everything appropriately and fairly. I really hope this ends with a positive resolution for you and by default you are helping others avoid this. It's heartbreaking in a way, not only the money, but the excitement and happiness of getting a puppy after the loss of a beloved pet and then having the rug just yanked out from under you.


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## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> MissBetsy - IMHO you are doing everything appropriately and fairly. I really hope this ends with a positive resolution for you and by default you are helping others avoid this. It's heartbreaking in a way, not only the money, but the excitement and happiness of getting a puppy after the loss of a beloved pet and then having the rug just yanked out from under you.


Thank you! At this point I would like to somehow stop her from doing this to others. It isn't fair. You get excited thinking you are getting a puppy and then you are in the dark since they don't respond back. We would have waited but have since moved on to another breeder. If it had not been for the 8 mo. old St Bernard mix we rescued last month this would have been a worse blow to us. The sad thing is she knew we had just put our dog down the end of July. How does one sleep at night?


----------



## alexg

I still can't understand why posing the full name and address of that scammer is not a good idea?!
That IMO does not fall into the rule "Not bashing a breeder".


----------



## missbetsy

alexg said:


> I still can't understand why posing the full name and address of that scammer is not a good idea?!
> That IMO does not fall into the rule "Not bashing a breeder".


Believe me I would love to plaster her name etc. everywhere but I realize it isn't "proper". I am guessing also because you are hearing only my side. What if I was upset and didn't like something she said, did etc.? Here I would be bashing her and she isn't even aware and can't tell her side of the story. Frankly there isn't much she could say since she hasn't corresponded but that is beside the point. I am sure one of the moderators here can give you more of a reason. This was just my opinion and it doesn't mean I am right. I believe it was mentioned anyone that wants to know can PM me.


----------



## kr16

Miss Betsy this is the best advice you were given by far. BBB is not going to go after anyone. Small claims costs to much.

This is the way to go, period. You will be amazed when the Attorney generals office gets involved what happens. This is to be used for any problem. Tv's, store complaints, mortgage companies, etc etc. When they get involved people listen. They can and will fine people.

With large companies the attorney generals office can create a recall on a defective product. I received two TVs that went bad from Samsung way after the warranty period expired.





Renofan2 said:


> First, so sorry you are going thru this and for the loss of you dog. Write to the Attorney General, state facts, copy of your check clearing your bank account, etc as well as all communications (emails, phone calls), etc. Once the Attorney General receives your letter, then they will send a letter to the breeder, requesting them to respond to the complaint. This may be just enough to have her send your deposit back. If this doesn't work, then at least file with small claims court. You can call and see if you can file from NJ. You can claim refund of your deposit, travel costs as well as the court costs, so this will be out of pocket money for her. I cannot imagine what type of defense she would have. Good luck. Just keep bombarding her with emails, calls, Complaint with the Attorney General and small claims court. Don't let her get away with it.


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## missbetsy

kr16 said:


> Miss Betsy this is the best advice you were given by far. BBB is not going to go after anyone. Small claims costs to much.
> 
> This is the way to go, period. You will be amazed when the Attorney generals office gets involved what happens. This is to be used for any problem. Tv's, store complaints, mortgage companies, etc etc. When they get involved people listen. They can and will fine people.
> 
> With large companies the attorney generals office can create a recall on a defective product. I received two TVs that went bad from Samsung way after the warranty period expired.


Thank you for bringing this back up to my attention. I realize the BBB can't really do anything. At most it leaves my complaint on their website should somebody search. I have also made note on RipOff report. I was just hoping that with the BBB getting in touch with her it might make her realize I am not being quiet about this. I will play fair and give her the 2 weeks to respond back to the BBB and then get in touch with the Attorney General. I just pulled up NY's website and I see where to file a complaint. I can't thank everyone here enough for all your comments and suggestions! You all have helped so much! On a good note I am getting excited hoping that the new breeder we signed on with has a puppy in a litter due next week. Fingers crossed!


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## missbetsy

Neko said:


> If you need me to send any emails out just for a test, I can help as well.


Thank you! I have sent you a PM!


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## Neko

Just wondering do you have a copy of your deposit or proof? At this point I would getthe police, that's stealing.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually I think it's breach of contract or fraud, technically speaking. If I recall correctly KR16 is/was an attorney and maybe can enlighten us.

MissBesty can (and probably already has) a copy of the deposited check, going back to my banking days depositing a check was de-facto proof that the money has been exchanged in consideration for goods/services.


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## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually I think it's breach of contract or fraud, technically speaking. If I recall correctly KR16 is/was an attorney and maybe can enlighten us.
> 
> MissBesty can (and probably already has) a copy of the deposited check, going back to my banking days depositing a check was de-facto proof that the money has been exchanged in consideration for goods/services.


This reply is to Neko also. Yes, I have a copy of the check where she signed it 8/5. Also in the subject line on the check it says "puppy". There was no contract signed. She just told me in the initial phone call (and only phone call) that I could send the deposit along with the puppy application which is on her website. If I call the local police in her town what do I say? Tell them I want to file something?


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## Gwenhwyfair

I would ask them if it's a matter they would get involved in. It maybe considered a civil matter and usually they won't get involved if it's not an actual offense like stealing through breaking and entering a house or business.

You won't know until you ask though!

In the past I've called the non-emergency number to ask if I was not certain and have found they didn't mind answering a few questions to point me in the right direction.



missbetsy said:


> This reply is to Neko also. Yes, I have a copy of the check where she signed it 8/5. Also in the subject line on the check it says "puppy". There was no contract signed. She just told me in the initial phone call (and only phone call) that I could send the deposit along with the puppy application which is on her website. If I call the local police in her town what do I say? Tell them I want to file something?


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## Gwenhwyfair

btw- MissBetsy you had a verbal contract, which still counts AND you have proof of that contract via the deposited check....so that's in your favor.


----------



## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> btw- MissBetsy you had a verbal contract, which still counts AND you have proof of that contract via the deposited check....so that's in your favor.


Okay thank you so much! I would definitely not call the emergency number! I will give her until this coming Monday and then proceed further. I keep trying to give her the benefit of returning it.


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## Sookie

I am also happy to email or call the "breeder" - I believe I found the website no problem via your ripoff report - so sorry you are dealing with this! I wonder if I (or anyone else) called and asked to come see the puppies this weekend what her response would be? It is harder to come up with excuses on the phone off the cuff.


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## missbetsy

Sookie said:


> I am also happy to email or call the "breeder" - I believe I found the website no problem via your ripoff report - so sorry you are dealing with this! I wonder if I (or anyone else) called and asked to come see the puppies this weekend what her response would be? It is harder to come up with excuses on the phone off the cuff.


Thank you! I sent you a PM.


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## kr16

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually I think it's breach of contract or fraud, technically speaking. If I recall correctly KR16 is/was an attorney and maybe can enlighten us.
> 
> MissBesty can (and probably already has) a copy of the deposited check, going back to my banking days depositing a check was de-facto proof that the money has been exchanged in consideration for goods/services.


No, I am not an attorney I just sleep at Holiday Inn Express's. 

My brother is a lawyer, I get great free info from him. The Attorney Generals office has always worked for me. they can fine someone pretty bad and they are not to be messed with. 

Once a complaint is filed they send out letters and get involved.


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## missbetsy

kr16 said:


> No, I am not an attorney I just sleep at Holiday Inn Express's.
> 
> My brother is a lawyer, I get great free info from him. The Attorney Generals office has always worked for me. they can fine someone pretty bad and they are not to be messed with.
> 
> Once a complaint is filed they send out letters and get involved.


Thank you for commenting! I am definitely filing a complaint this coming Monday. Still trying to let her make this right. I don't know why I am but maybe it is because I am nothing like her.


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## lalachka

Did you see other reports on her on rip off? Someone paid 2k to her, same story


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## fuzzybunny

I was about to suggest you join the ISSR forum and post but then I just realized that the posts are previewed before posted so that wouldn't get you anywhere. She'd never allow a post like yours through because it obviously would make her look bad to all her followers. It's no wonder so many ISSR breeders joined the other club.


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## missbetsy

lalachka said:


> Did you see other reports on her on rip off? Someone paid 2k to her, same story


Yes, I did! There are actually 2 listed like that. One in CT paid $1,550 & somebody in W.Va. was $2,250. Surely there are some more.


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## Jax08

I would contact the local authorities. If there is a pattern then they may be able to press charges for fraud.


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## Chantald

On a similar note, I did some googling and found out who the breeder was out of curiosity, and later found their websites/blogs. They have loads of crazy person ramblings all over the Internet that definitely had me going hmmmm.... Loads of defamatory things to say about all sorts of other people.


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----------



## missbetsy

fuzzybunny said:


> I was about to suggest you join the ISSR forum and post but then I just realized that the posts are previewed before posted so that wouldn't get you anywhere. She'd never allow a post like yours through because it obviously would make her look bad to all her followers. It's no wonder so many ISSR breeders joined the other club.


I actually did join the ISSR forum the same day I joined here. It took almost 2 weeks to get approved. I have looked over some postings there and am just not comfortable to comment. She does seem to have quite a bit of followers and I thought the same as you. She might be the one previewing them. I actually thought when it took some time to get approved that it was her not letting me in.


----------



## missbetsy

Chantald said:


> On a similar note, I did some googling and found out who the breeder was out of curiosity, and later found their websites/blogs. They have loads of crazy person ramblings all over the Internet that definitely had me going hmmmm.... Loads of defamatory things to say about all sorts of other people.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ah yes! I have been reading quite a bit lately! Seemingly quite a bit of that was with her Mom that passed in 2011. Almost reminds me of what would happen in grade school.


----------



## missbetsy

Jax08 said:


> I would contact the local authorities. If there is a pattern then they may be able to press charges for fraud.


I plan on calling and inquiring this coming Monday. That will give her a week since the BBB contacted her.


----------



## Chantald

missbetsy said:


> Ah yes! I have been reading quite a bit lately! Seemingly quite a bit of that was with her Mom that passed in 2011. Almost reminds me of what would happen in grade school.


Yeah some of it was definitely pretty wild LOL I just had to shake my head at a lot of it! 


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----------



## fuzzybunny

missbetsy said:


> Ah yes! I have been reading quite a bit lately! Seemingly quite a bit of that was with her Mom that passed in 2011. Almost reminds me of what would happen in grade school.


I originally was planning on getting an ISSR Shiloh so I joined that forum. Her mom was so defamatory towards the other club or "splinters" as she called them that she made herself look bad and I actually ended up getting my Shiloh from a so-called splinter because of her, lol. Glad I did too. The politics are so crazy with the Shilohs that I'll sadly probably never get another one. My dog rocks though. Love the big goof. That's him in my avatar.


----------



## missbetsy

fuzzybunny said:


> I originally was planning on getting an ISSR Shiloh so I joined that forum. Her mom was so defamatory towards the other club or "splinters" as she called them that she made herself look bad and I actually ended up getting my Shiloh from a so-called splinter because of her, lol. Glad I did too. The politics are so crazy with the Shilohs that I'll sadly probably never get another one. My dog rocks though. Love the big goof. That's him in my avatar.


That was the word I was trying to think of....politics! Both my husband & I had a German Shepherd growing up. Our Shiloh Shepherd (Kane) I always said was a rescue. A friend had gotten him from this exact breeder and was giving him to his cousin. The cousin ended up not wanting him and I said we would take him. Just like you I called him a big goof. Because we just thought he was the best we went back to where he came from so this was the first I personally tried to deal with them. It wasn't until after our Kane passed in July that we saw on his paperwork he was a Shiloh Shepherd. I too will probably never have another one which is fine. He was one of a kind to us. I have a deposit down now with a breeder in southern PA and am hoping in the next litter there might be one for us. In the meantime I am just getting loads of kisses from the 8 mo. old St. Bernard mix we rescued last month. He has helped our family start to heal from our loss more than he will ever know.


----------



## TAR HEEL MOM

Wow..that took about 5 minutes of sleuthing and I found what y'all were talking about. What a horrible reputation they have! But good heavens what beautiful dogs! I had never heard of a Shiloh shepherd before.

Sorry missbetsy. I sure hope everything works out for your new pup. And show us a picture of that saint Bernard please


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## missbetsy

TAR HEEL MOM said:


> Wow..that took about 5 minutes of sleuthing and I found what y'all were talking about. What a horrible reputation they have! But good heavens what beautiful dogs! I had never heard of a Shiloh shepherd before.
> 
> Sorry missbetsy. I sure hope everything works out for your new pup. And show us a picture of that saint Bernard please


Yes, the Shiloh Shepherds are beautiful! We would always get many compliments on our guy! I tried to figure out how to get a picture up here but my blonde brain isn't getting it. I will have to get one of my sons to show me how easy it probably is.


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## JakodaCD OA

beautiful dogs, but the stories I could tell you about the breeder which I won't post here Wish you had asked here first before you put down a deposit, I would have changed your mind

If they let you join that forum, I would post exactly what's happening on there, hey all they can do is remove it, ban you, but who cares at this point right?

I would be calling the local PD, tho there probably isn't much they can do, I'm sure they've had complaints before as well as AC ..

You probably would have been better off going with one of the breeders from the splinter clubs.


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> beautiful dogs, but the stories I could tell you about the breeder which I won't post here Wish you had asked here first before you put down a deposit, I would have changed your mind
> 
> If they let you join that forum, I would post exactly what's happening on there, hey all they can do is remove it, ban you, but who cares at this point right?
> 
> I would be calling the local PD, tho there probably isn't much they can do, I'm sure they've had complaints before as well as AC ..
> 
> You probably would have been better off going with one of the breeders from the splinter clubs.


I am sure it wouldn't have been very hard to change my mind. Unfortunately I didn't do any research on her which is so unlike me. I guess grief at the time kind of overshadowed me going about this the way I should have. Our Shiloh was given to us from a contractor my husband occasionally works with. This gentlemen has gotten 3 puppies from this breeders Mom so he had never dealt with the daughter. He didn't have a problem and I just figured I wouldn't either. This past month has clearly been an eye-opener for me in to the Shiloh world. I don't know why but the movie Stepford Wives comes to mind. I am laughing as I type that as I can't even explain why. Almost like a different world?!?! I better stop!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Out of curiosity would you mind sharing which breeder you are now going with? Is it another Shiloh breeder?

Just curious - if you don't mind.


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## arycrest

After I figured out who the breeder you're dealing with is, my only suggestion is for you to contact the New York State Attorney General's office and see if they can help you get your deposit back, or at least lead you in the right direction. 
Eric T. Schneiderman | New York State Attorney General

GOOD LUCK!!!!


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## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Out of curiosity would you mind sharing which breeder you are now going with? Is it another Shiloh breeder?
> 
> Just curious - if you don't mind.


*** Edited by request ***


----------



## missbetsy

arycrest said:


> After I figured out who the breeder you're dealing with is, my only suggestion is for you to contact the New York State Attorney General's office and see if they can help you get your deposit back, or at least lead you in the right direction.
> Eric T. Schneiderman | New York State Attorney General
> 
> GOOD LUCK!!!!


Thank you! I am going to go that route this Monday and hopefully the can either help or make a suggestion.


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## arycrest

missbetsy said:


> Thank you! I am going to go that route this Monday and hopefully the can either help or make a suggestion.


GOOD LUCK!!! 

And if all else fails, you can always file a SMALL CLAIMS suit and then try to get on JUDGE JUDY or THE PEOPLE'S COURT!!!


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## missbetsy

arycrest said:


> GOOD LUCK!!!
> 
> And if all else fails, you can always file a SMALL CLAIMS suit and then try to get on JUDGE JUDY or THE PEOPLE'S COURT!!!


Haha! Frankly I am a bit intimidated by Judge Judy. She does make me laugh but I surely wouldn't want to say the wrong thing in front of her! I will let everyone here know if I decide to go the TV route!


----------



## kr16

missbetsy said:


> Haha! Frankly I am a bit intimidated by Judge Judy. She does make me laugh but I surely wouldn't want to say the wrong thing in front of her! I will let everyone here know if I decide to go the TV route!


I have a friend who went on the show. They show pays everything it doesn't matter who wins or loses. just about every reality show is scripted and fake.


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## JakodaCD OA

the DA in their town just might have some stuff on the mom, I know at one point there were things going on that the DA was involved in, they actually called a friend of mine who had 3 very negative experiences / problems with the mom ..this was quite a few years ago tho.


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## lalachka

Jakoda, why can't you tell the stories without naming the people? Or you just don't want to?


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## Chantald

JakodaCD OA said:


> the DA in their town just might have some stuff on the mom, I know at one point there were things going on that the DA was involved in, they actually called a friend of mine who had 3 very negative experiences / problems with the mom ..this was quite a few years ago tho.


Not surprised about this after reading about them. Their online presence definitely portrays them as a bunch of whackjobs in my honest opinion. I was so turned off after about 10 minutes of reading, I can't imagine actually trying to deal with those people in real life. 


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## JakodaCD OA

lala> it would be breeder bashing, I suppose. but if anyone wants to know, pm me, I'll be glad to tell you via pm


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> lala> it would be breeder bashing, I suppose. but if anyone wants to know, pm me, I'll be glad to tell you via pm


it's not bashing if you're not naming them)))))) but i'm about to pm you lolol
i'm waaay too nosy to let this go


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> the DA in their town just might have some stuff on the mom, I know at one point there were things going on that the DA was involved in, they actually called a friend of mine who had 3 very negative experiences / problems with the mom ..this was quite a few years ago tho.


Yes, I have read quite a few "rants" the Mother had put up several years back. Appears she always felt people were out to take them down or give them a bad name. For me I personally don't think it would be the type of person/people I would be comfortable around.


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## mebully21

If someone took my $400 you bet your butt i would be driving to that town to file suit...


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. thanks. I see they aren't Shiloh's.

Some working and show lines. Nice looking dogs, very exciting, a new upcoming little bundle of puppy cuteness! 



missbetsy said:


> *** Edited by Request ***


----------



## missbetsy

mebully21 said:


> If someone took my $400 you bet your butt i would be driving to that town to file suit...


I will definitely put up a good fight and see this to the end. I see others put out much more than I did. Hoping to avoid making a trip but if I have to I will!


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## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> O.K. thanks. I see they aren't Shiloh's.
> 
> Some working and show lines. Nice looking dogs, very exciting, a new upcoming little bundle of puppy cuteness!


No, not Shilohs. We initially wanted another one but as the month went on we decided it wasn't a deal breaker for the family. I started looking at other Shiloh breeders and all seemed to have plush and we were hoping for smooth. To me all the Shepherds are just beautiful/handsome! I got an e-mail from Susie this afternoon letting me know any day now. Just hoping there is a male for us and if not we will have to be patient.


----------



## Noles20

any news?


----------



## missbetsy

Noles20 said:


> any news?


No. I have no news to report this week. I was a bit out of touch with this issue since late last week and I plan on pursuing it again this coming week. Sadly, we had an unexpected sudden death in our family. My husband's 27 year old niece passed in the hospital a day after giving birth to a healthy baby girl. As of now we don't know what the cause of death was. One of those times in life where we just shake our heads wondering why.


----------



## Chantald

missbetsy said:


> No. I have no news to report this week. I was a bit out of touch with this issue since late last week and I plan on pursuing it again this coming week. Sadly, we had an unexpected sudden death in our family. My husband's 27 year old niece passed in the hospital a day after giving birth to a healthy baby girl. As of now we don't know what the cause of death was. One of those times in life where we just shake our heads wondering why.


I am so sorry to hear that, and my thoughts are with you and your family! 


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## onyx'girl

My sympathy to your family, missbetsy. What a tragedy. Prayers for everyone.


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## fuzzybunny

How tragic. My sympathies.


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## Gwenhwyfair

wow......beyond heartbreaking...

Best to you and your family.



missbetsy said:


> No. I have no news to report this week. I was a bit out of touch with this issue since late last week and I plan on pursuing it again this coming week. Sadly, we had an unexpected sudden death in our family. My husband's 27 year old niece passed in the hospital a day after giving birth to a healthy baby girl. As of now we don't know what the cause of death was. One of those times in life where we just shake our heads wondering why.


----------



## selzer

I'm so sorry.


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## arycrest

How tragic ... so sorry this happened. My condolences to you and the family!


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## Redrider469

So sorry for your loss. 


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## missbetsy

*Thank you for your thoughts!*

I sent an e-mail following up with the BBB this morning so I am waiting to hear back from them. I know they can't do anything but at least it will show I started with them, gave her a chance and she didn't respond to them either. On another note I just tried to post in the Shiloh Shepherd Forum. Surprise! It has to be approved. I am not holding my breath that they will allow it to be posted. I didn't name anyone or location. I just "told" what happened and did anyone have any thoughts on my situation. To me there is no reason that it could not be approved to be posted. Will keep all posted here! Thank you to everyone here for listening to me!


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## Jax08

Have you contacted a lawyer about suing her?


----------



## missbetsy

Jax08 said:


> Have you contacted a lawyer about suing her?


No, I have not. I have been trying (wishing) to get her to return the deposit without having to go that route. I would think it would end up costing me much more than my $400 deposit to hire a lawyer. I will do small claims if I have to but that means a good 5 hour drive to her area to appear. I was even reading that sometimes small claims can't even force them to pay.


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## Jax08

It can't force them to pay. But it will show a judgement against them for others to see and this may be a case of fraud so there could be criminal aspects of it. A lawyer consult should be free or very low costs.


----------



## missbetsy

Jax08 said:


> It can't force them to pay. But it will show a judgement against them for others to see and this may be a case of fraud so there could be criminal aspects of it. A lawyer consult should be free or very low costs.


Thank you! A phone call to a lawyer will be put down on my list. I will not give up on this. I do want the money back but as time goes on it is becoming more about what she did and hopefully making others aware.


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## Galathiel

You can file a writ (you'll have to look up the name .. can't remember it off the top of my head). It will show up as a lien against property if they try to sell. They won't be able to sell with a clear title until it's paid.


----------



## missbetsy

Galathiel said:


> You can file a writ (you'll have to look up the name .. can't remember it off the top of my head). It will show up as a lien against property if they try to sell. They won't be able to sell with a clear title until it's paid.


Good thought! I just looked this up after you mentioned it. If I am reading correctly I would have to try and collect through a collection agency. If they didn't collect it then I would go have to file in court etc.


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## Galathiel

I'm not sure about that part. I know that a professional here (CPA) did it himself and didn't go through a collection agency that I am aware of. It might be different in your state, however.


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## My5dogs

I am very sorry. Heartbreaking


----------



## missbetsy

My5dogs said:


> I am very sorry. Heartbreaking


Thank you so much and thank you to others here for their kind words! Very much appreciated!


----------



## angelas

I'm wondering if there is a possibility of, if there is a judgement against her in small claims court, reporting an unpaid and outstanding judgement to Equifax and have it applied against her credit rating. Holy fiddlesticks, do people get crabby when there is stuff placed against their credit raining!


----------



## missbetsy

angelas said:


> I'm wondering if there is a possibility of, if there is a judgement against her in small claims court, reporting an unpaid and outstanding judgement to Equifax and have it applied against her credit rating. Holy fiddlesticks, do people get crabby when there is stuff placed against their credit raining!


Good point! I just talked to the woman handling the case with the BBB in NY. She just e-mailed yesterday another request for her to reply since they have gotten no response. From here she will try contacting her by phone to let her know that this will be made public. She also suggested as others here did to file with the Division of Consumer Protection. That paperwork needs to be faxed or mailed as it isn't done online. I will be working on that this week to get it out with my e-mails and notes. Interesting that I tried to post in the Shiloh Shepherd forum and it hasn't been approved yet. I see other posts up since I sent mine.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In this case I *think* you'd have to prove breach of contract, have that adjudicated in your favor in court and then try to collect what the court ordered that she owe you.

I have used collection agencies for my business in the past and the good ones will do all the proper legal paperwork and warnings, in addition to charging collection fees on the person in default.

In one case a client ended up having to pay twice what she actually owed because of all the fees. Like your case she didn't respond to me when I tried to work it out just between us so it was her fault, her problem.




missbetsy said:


> Good thought! I just looked this up after you mentioned it. If I am reading correctly I would have to try and collect through a collection agency. If they didn't collect it then I would go have to file in court etc.


----------



## alexg

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...
> In one case a client ended up having to pay *twice* what she actually owed because of all the fees. Like your case she didn't respond to me when I tried to work it out just between us so it was her fault, her problem.
> ...


That would be a great justice.


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## missbetsy

*Update*

I originally started this thread regarding the breeder who kept my deposit and has had no communication with me. Just wanted to update everyone here on the status. The BBB has tried for over a month now to get the breeder to respond to my complaint. Two e-mails were sent by the BBB and phone calls were not returned. As several people here suggested the Attorney General, as did the BBB, today I filled out the proper paperwork along with copies of my paper trail and sent it off to their office in Rochester, NY. I also called the local police in the breeder's town. Very nice gentlemen told me that since money was exchanged it now becomes a civil matter and it would have to go through the courts. He did take my name and number along with her name and address. He said he knew somebody from her area that just might know something about the breeder. If he found out anything he said he would call me. In the meantime 2 weeks ago I tried to post a question in the Shiloh Shepherd forum regarding what do you do when a breeder keeps your deposit. I didn't name anyone or location and I think my wording was done nicely. My question never got posted. I do find it odd because I didn't see anything wrong with my inquiry. The Shiloh Shepherd forum is a strange one in my opinion. I don't even know who is running it or who I could ask why my question wasn't posted. For all I know it could be that particular breeder overseeing the forum. I don't know what happens from here with the Attorney General. I am guessing maybe they will call me to follow up? Does anyone here have experience with them?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I would also contact your state dept of agriculture.. I think they oversee animal control type issues/ not sure if they would do anything, but it's worth a shot..

On the shiloh forum, are the postings reveiwed before they are allowed to post? Sounds like it, and sounds like 'someone' doesn't want others to hear your question,,interesting


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## kr16

The Attorney generals office will contact you via postal mail. You can call them next week and see if you can talk to someone


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would also contact your state dept of agriculture.. I think they oversee animal control type issues/ not sure if they would do anything, but it's worth a shot..
> 
> On the shiloh forum, are the postings reveiwed before they are allowed to post? Sounds like it, and sounds like 'someone' doesn't want others to hear your question,,interesting


I just looked over the NY State Dept. of Agriculture website. Thank you! Although it appears more for after the purchase of an animal and if things go wrong I am still going to submit their complaint form. Can't hurt and I am curious to see what they say. Yes, the posts are reviewed on the Shiloh Shepherd forum. Interesting that other posts were put up after I submitted mine through these last 2 weeks. The least they could have done was sent me a message as to why it wasn't proper to post there.


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## missbetsy

kr16 said:


> The Attorney generals office will contact you via postal mail. You can call them next week and see if you can talk to someone


Okay, thank you! I am just curious as to what the Attorney Generals office might do differently vs. the BBB. Do they have some magical power or scare tactic to try and get her to refund my money?


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## Mr. D

Is visiting the breeder an option? Sometimes face to face does a lot of good.


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## kr16

missbetsy said:


> Okay, thank you! I am just curious as to what the Attorney Generals office might do differently vs. the BBB. Do they have some magical power or scare tactic to try and get her to refund my money?


Good question as far as the BBB, what a waste of time they are if the business is not one of substance. The bad business goes on the BBB website report they cannot collect or do anything.


Letters written on behalf of the Attorney General’s Office generally receive satisfactory resolutions to consumer complaints very quickly. In cases where the business does not respond or is engaging in illegal acts, the Attorney General, as the chief law enforcement officer in the state, can step in and take legal action on the consumer’s behalf. The BBB cannot.

Go to ripoff report and post there to protect others

http://www.ripoffreport.com/


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## missbetsy

Mr. D said:


> Is visiting the breeder an option? Sometimes face to face does a lot of good.


It would be a 5 hour drive for me. Even if this breeder lived closer I would be leery to confront them. This breeder doesn't appear to be reputable and I have to wonder what kind of person does what she does. Really don't want to come face to face with somebody like that. Believe me I would love to confront her and say what I have to say but it might not come off very lady like.


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## missbetsy

kr16 said:


> Good question as far as the BBB, what a waste of time they are if the business is not one of substance. The bad business goes on the BBB website report they cannot collect or do anything.
> 
> 
> Letters written on behalf of the Attorney General’s Office generally receive satisfactory resolutions to consumer complaints very quickly. In cases where the business does not respond or is engaging in illegal acts, the Attorney General, as the chief law enforcement officer in the state, can step in and take legal action on the consumer’s behalf. The BBB cannot.
> 
> Go to ripoff report and post there to protect others
> 
> Ripoff Report | Scams, reviews, complaints, lawsuits and frauds. File a report, post your review. Consumers educating consumers.


Thank you for responding to my question. I am hoping this gets resolved so that we don't have to take the court route. I know it will be on the BBB website for all to see within a week or two. I see the kennel does not have a good rating and that they didn't respond to a previous complaint but it was a start for me. I also did find Ripoff report right when this began and my complaint is already listed there. Another website I found was pissed off consumer. Their Facebook group is closed so there is no getting on that.


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## doggiedad

rotfl.



kr16 said:


> >>>>> No, I am not an attorney I just sleep at
> Holiday Inn Express's. <<<<<
> 
> My brother is a lawyer, I get great free info from him. The Attorney Generals office has always worked for me. they can fine someone pretty bad and they are not to be messed with.
> 
> Once a complaint is filed they send out letters and get involved.


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## martemchik

If you're in NJ and the breeder is 5 hours away from you doesn't that make them out of state?

Sounds like a federal matter to me at this point...I don't believe the attorney general of either state could do anything for you.


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## Mr. D

martemchik said:


> If you're in NJ and the breeder is 5 hours away from you doesn't that make them out of state?


I can tell your from experience. Dealing with out of state issues is often more trouble than it was worth and extremely time consuming. It's a game of patience.

I hope things work out in the end.


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## doggiedad

i don't think you can decide what's the right time for someone
to buy another dog after losing a dog.



Smithie86 said:


> It needs to be the right time for the owner and the puppy. Not just the puppy. We look at both. If it is right after the loss, it is a reaction to the loss and they want to replace exactly what they lost. People that we have talked to completely understand the reasoning behind and do not take offense to it at all.


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## doggiedad

you can drive 5 hours and still be in the same state. lol.



martemchik said:


> >>>>> If you're in NJ and the breeder is 5 hours away from you doesn't that make them out of state?<<<<<
> 
> Sounds like a federal matter to me at this point...I don't believe the attorney general of either state could do anything for you.


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## missbetsy

martemchik said:


> If you're in NJ and the breeder is 5 hours away from you doesn't that make them out of state?
> 
> Sounds like a federal matter to me at this point...I don't believe the attorney general of either state could do anything for you.


Correct different states as I am in NJ and the breeder is in NY. I am new at this so I am just taking each step that I am hoping will get results. I figure if the Attorney Generals Office is not correct they will offer suggestions. I didn't see anything on the NY website commenting about being from a different state and filing but I could have missed that. Whatever it takes I will see this through. If somebody were to ask me why I am doing this for $400 my first answer would be for the principal of it. I don't know if it will stop her from doing it again but maybe it will make her think she can't just take anyone's hard earned money and get away with it.


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## pets4life

I dont think the OP should drive to the breeders house what is she going to do when she gets there and they tell her to get lost? They can just say get off our property. 

Try to find the paper trail get their name and say you are going to call the police or something or fraud


missbetsy have you asked for help on the ped database? Are these breeders well known?


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## missbetsy

pets4life said:


> I dont think the OP should drive to the breeders house what is she going to do when she gets there and they tell her to get lost? They can just say get off our property.
> 
> Try to find the paper trail get their name and say you are going to call the police or something or fraud
> 
> 
> missbetsy have you asked for help on the ped database? Are these breeders well known?


Although I would love to confront this woman to question her why I realize in this crazy world that would be a definite no-no. This breeder is well known in the Shiloh Shepherd community as her deceased mother was the founder of the Shiloh Shepherd. What exactly is the ped database and is that what it is called? I goggled it and a variety of things came up.


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## kr16

NJ Attorney generals office is one of the strictest, see if you can file a complaint in Jersey also. They beat up Samsung so bad all the time if you file against them.


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## martemchik

doggiedad said:


> you can drive 5 hours and still be in the same state. lol.


Really? In New Jersey? Or is OP driving in circles to make it sound like the breeder is farther away to beef up the story?

Nice post...


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## martemchik

pets4life said:


> I dont think the OP should drive to the breeders house what is she going to do when she gets there and they tell her to get lost? They can just say get off our property.
> 
> Try to find the paper trail get their name and say you are going to call the police or something or fraud
> 
> 
> missbetsy have you asked for help on the ped database? Are these breeders well known?


OP has stated that she contacted the police. This is between two parties, and therefore is a civil not criminal matter. The "breeder" has not broken any laws.


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## martemchik

The thing is...technically speaking the NY attorney general doesn't have to do anything to help you. I don't know what their jurisdiction is when it comes to out of state complaints. I don't really know what they do with complaints in the first place...I mean, they can't go after every single person that gets a complaint filed against them. The reason this is a federal matter is that its a contract/sale between two parties in different states. The NJ attorney general can't do anything to a person in NY...so that is probably useless.

I'm not sure what other channels you're going through, but if you have a paper trail, a contract, a copy of the check being cleared (with their endorsement on the back), you should just be going to small claims court. It seems like you're going through all the channels but the one that will for sure do something about you getting your $400 back.


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## missbetsy

martemchik said:


> The thing is...technically speaking the NY attorney general doesn't have to do anything to help you. I don't know what their jurisdiction is when it comes to out of state complaints. I don't really know what they do with complaints in the first place...I mean, they can't go after every single person that gets a complaint filed against them. The reason this is a federal matter is that its a contract/sale between two parties in different states. The NJ attorney general can't do anything to a person in NY...so that is probably useless.
> 
> I'm not sure what other channels you're going through, but if you have a paper trail, a contract, a copy of the check being cleared (with their endorsement on the back), you should just be going to small claims court. It seems like you're going through all the channels but the one that will for sure do something about you getting your $400 back.


I have been trying to avoid the small claims court route because of the 5 hour distance. And no that wouldn't be a 5 hour distance driving in circles. It would require my husband to take off from work to drive me there and since he is self-employed he would obviously lose money. I myself cannot drive that distance due to numerous foot surgeries. Most likely would have to spend the night as 10 hrs in a car along with small claims court in one day doesn't thrill me. Would come out to 2 days pay lost for my husband. At this point I have used the helpful suggestions of all here in this forum. Was hoping along the line that the breeder would do the right thing with a bit of nudging from others. No clue what the Attorney Generals office will do with my complaint. I read they will notify me by mail. Just a waiting game at this time.


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## Mr. D

pets4life said:


> I dont think the OP should drive to the breeders house what is she going to do when she gets there and they tell her to get lost? They can just say get off our property.
> 
> Try to find the paper trail get their name and say you are going to call the police or something or fraud
> 
> 
> missbetsy have you asked for help on the ped database? Are these breeders well known?


I'm the confrontational type. I was only suggesting if she lived close enough. Surely if she brought all paperwork, the breeder would be all like, "I'm so Sorry! Honest mistake, really!" Use psychology against them. But, there are few that it doesn't work on. Heads or tails really.


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## missbetsy

Mr. D said:


> I'm the confrontational type. I was only suggesting if she lived close enough. Surely if she brought all paperwork, the breeder would be all like, "I'm so Sorry! Honest mistake, really!" Use psychology against them. But, there are few that it doesn't work on. Heads or tails really.


I understand your comment.....my sister was saying to me, "Lets take a road trip!". There is just something about this woman that is telling me to stay far, far away.


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## JakodaCD OA

Personally I wouldn't do a one on one confrontation,,they are a strange bunch, and you just never know


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## Lauri & The Gang

martemchik said:


> Really? In New Jersey? Or is OP driving in circles to make it sound like the breeder is farther away to beef up the story?
> 
> Nice post...


Off topic from the original post but ... It's a 4.5 hours drive from the top of the state of New Jersey to the bottom (if you avoid highways, like some people do).

Being snarky is not nice.


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## missbetsy

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Off topic from the original post but ... It's a 4.5 hours drive from the top of the state of New Jersey to the bottom (if you avoid highways, like some people do).
> 
> Being snarky is not nice.


I have lived in Jersey all my life and I actually looked up how far it would take to drive the state. I am going to guess though with all the traffic we have anymore it just may be 5+ hours.


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## Springbrz

Missbetsy, have you thought of seeking legal help from a local legal aid group. Or getting a free consultation from a local consumer rights attorney. Both would know the laws regarding your situation and may be able to give you free advise/help that may be more beneficial than that of us here. We all want to help but lets face it we're not all lawyers in NJ/NY. You have several jurisdictional issues going on with your case. Laws vary from state to state. Does you claim have to be filed where the breeder is; or can you file in your local court? Money changed hands via mail. If the breeder intended to defraud you, that would be mail fraud, which is a federal crime. 
it is a contact across state lines involving property (yes a dog is property). This may be an interstate commerce issue legally, as well. Anyway, you get the point. Try your local legal aid. you may qualify for free or reduced legal help. Use the free consultation for advise from any and all lawyers that will offer it. There may be options for you that you don't know about. Also, as far as I am aware (I could be wrong), even in small claims courts, if you win your case, you can force reimbursement for court costs/fees and lost wages/income while in court.
We sued an auto repair business in small claims court. We didn't even have to go. Our consumer rights atty. represented us. The owner of the auto shop didn't show. The judge ordered a summary judgement of $10,000 right then and there. Unfortunately, in our case the owner closed up shop and skipped the state so we couldn't collect (well, we could have, maybe, if we then spent a lot of money in court...we opted not too... If the guy ever comes back to our state we will get him and collect.). As a result our attorney never charged us for going to court for us. We only owe her if we collect in the future. Again, I suggest you try to get some real legal help.


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## missbetsy

Springbrz said:


> Missbetsy, have you thought of seeking legal help from a local legal aid group. Or getting a free consultation from a local consumer rights attorney. Both would know the laws regarding your situation and may be able to give you free advise/help that may be more beneficial than that of us here. We all want to help but lets face it we're not all lawyers in NJ/NY. You have several jurisdictional issues going on with your case. Laws vary from state to state. Does you claim have to be filed where the breeder is; or can you file in your local court? Money changed hands via mail. If the breeder intended to defraud you, that would be mail fraud, which is a federal crime.
> it is a contact across state lines involving property (yes a dog is property). This may be an interstate commerce issue legally, as well. Anyway, you get the point. Try your local legal aid. you may qualify for free or reduced legal help. Use the free consultation for advise from any and all lawyers that will offer it. There may be options for you that you don't know about. Also, as far as I am aware (I could be wrong), even in small claims courts, if you win your case, you can force reimbursement for court costs/fees and lost wages/income while in court.
> We sued an auto repair business in small claims court. We didn't even have to go. Our consumer rights atty. represented us. The owner of the auto shop didn't show. The judge ordered a summary judgement of $10,000 right then and there. Unfortunately, in our case the owner closed up shop and skipped the state so we couldn't collect (well, we could have, maybe, if we then spent a lot of money in court...we opted not too... If the guy ever comes back to our state we will get him and collect.). As a result our attorney never charged us for going to court for us. We only owe her if we collect in the future. Again, I suggest you try to get some real legal help.


I was just kind of taking steps trying to avoid the legal route if possible. I realize the BBB can't make her pay me but I was hoping somebody else calling attention to it might make her refund my deposit. I just sent an inquiry in to an online lawyer forum and am curious as to their response. I feel it stinks that I would have to be the one to travel to her location to try and get my money back through small claims. They should make those that do us wrong be inconvenienced. I almost feel like she might realize the distance and think she made an easy $400 because who will come after that........ME!


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would also contact your state dept of agriculture.. I think they oversee animal control type issues/ not sure if they would do anything, but it's worth a shot..
> 
> On the shiloh forum, are the postings reveiwed before they are allowed to post? Sounds like it, and sounds like 'someone' doesn't want others to hear your question,,interesting


I took your suggestion and over the weekend filled out the online form with the Dept of Agriculture. Thank you! I received a response via e-mail this morning. I was told they only deal with the record keeping and health of the kennels. However, they are going to document my claim and told me to reach out to the NY Attorney Generals office. According to the USPS tracking the Attorney Generals office received my paperwork this morning. Dept of Ag said if the Attorney Generals office finds this kennel guilty of fraud that they can then decline/renew or even revoke their license. Found that very interesting. I think she believes for only $400 I will just go away. I will keep at this however time consuming it may be.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm glad you got that information Like I said before, at one point the DA or Attorney General (can't remember which) DID contact my friend about 'stuff' going on, but this was years ago, and I dont know what the outcome was..Maybe if it was AG , they still have files on them...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually breach of contract is against the law......the breeder has not honored her part of the agreement.




martemchik said:


> OP has stated that she contacted the police. This is between two parties, and therefore is a civil not criminal matter. The "breeder" has not broken any laws.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

FWIW I would do the same Miss Betsy. 




missbetsy said:


> I was just kind of taking steps trying to avoid the legal route if possible. I realize the BBB can't make her pay me but I was hoping somebody else calling attention to it might make her refund my deposit. I just sent an inquiry in to an online lawyer forum and am curious as to their response. I feel it stinks that I would have to be the one to travel to her location to try and get my money back through small claims. They should make those that do us wrong be inconvenienced. I almost feel like *she might realize the distance and think she made an easy $400 because who will come after that........ME*!


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## Dainerra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Actually breach of contract is against the law......the breeder has not honored her part of the agreement.


While this is true, it is still CIVIL law not criminal. The police do not investigate civil matters.

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## gsdsar

Dainerra said:


> While this is true, it is still CIVIL law not criminal. The police do not investigate civil matters.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Can any one explain why this is civil NOT criminal. Isn't it theft? Just confused. I feel bad for OP. 


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## onyx'girl

gsdsar said:


> Can any one explain why this is civil NOT criminal. Isn't it theft? Just confused. I feel bad for OP.


agree, and if this isn't the only person being taken advantage of, it is definitely theft! I hope missbetsy can get this resolved with minimal cost and time invested(well, there already has been way too much time!) as well as anyone else that is a victim of this breeder.


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## Dainerra

gsdsar said:


> Can any one explain why this is civil NOT criminal. Isn't it theft? Just confused. I feel bad for OP.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Breach of contract is considered a civil matter. It is viewed differently than someone walking up and grabbing your wallet. It is assumed that, if you have a context out verbal agreement, that birth parties are willing participants in the deal and therefore it is something to be worked out in court vs a police investigation to find the culprit.


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## Dainerra

I can't edit on my phone tonight.
With a contract, the civil court reads over the terms of the contact to determine if there was a breach, what aspects of the contract were not fulfilled, what compensation (if any) is owed, etc
Basically, it just comes firm to the east laws are written -some are criminal matters and are listed in that context, others are civil matters (loosely defined as affecting only the parties involved instead of the community at large)
Someone who didn't fulfill an agreement with a specific person if considered civil as only the people he "lied to"are affected and they were willing participants in their involvement -the court will decide if he mislead then, if they simply misunderstood, and whether there was intentional deception.
A pickpocket is a criminal matter as he is consisted a threat to everyone who might walk by

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## missbetsy

onyx'girl said:


> agree, and if this isn't the only person being taken advantage of, it is definitely theft! I hope missbetsy can get this resolved with minimal cost and time invested(well, there already has been way too much time!) as well as anyone else that is a victim of this breeder.


When I spoke to the State Police in Fillmore it was explained that once money was exchanged it became a civil matter. I am sure, like myself, many people see it as a theft but I guess that just isn't how it is handled. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing is the fact that there are people like this out amongst us conducting their business. Somebody else will come along and the same thing will happen to them. I am not alone in this after doing a search online and I can't figure out how she continues to get away with it.


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## selzer

Breech of contract I think is a civil matter. I mean, some of you all bought a dog with a no-breeding contract. If you had an oops litter, the cops will do absolutely nothing, even though you breeched the contract. It would be a civil matter. 

Fraud is a criminal matter. If this woman is taking deposits and does not even own a dog, or it can be PROVED that she is not intending to breed the dog (like it is fixed), then that would be fraud. And then the prosecutor has to decide whether or not the evidence is strong enough to persue a case against the person. 

Breech of contract is kind of like when you promise something, but you can't deliver. It happens all the time. And it is a civil matter then to use the courts to try to help a party determine a different set of priorities. 

Fraud is when you know there is no possible way you could deliver, but you do something deliberately to gain something you are not entitled to. 

A breeder who takes 17 deposits for litters in the spring, and breeds three bitches, and can show the records/stud meetings/fees, etc. Is not defrauding the prospective buyers if one or all of their bitches come up empty. The people will not be happy, but if the enter into the agreement that the deposit will be put onto another litter, then they either wait, or lose their deposit. Most of us feel if we can't deliver, it is up to the buyer to choose to wait or get their deposit back. But not everyone. It is important to know what you are agreeing to when you sign the paperwork or hand over your check.

If a breeder has 4 puppies and accepts 4 deposits, and the litter gets canine herpes and dies, if the deposit states that the breeder will return the deposit if the puppy is not provided, and the breeder is unable to give back the deposits, that would be breech of contract, but not fraud. It would be civil, not criminal. It would be criminal if the breeder stole a picture of a litter with puppies off the net, and advertised it, and took deposits on it, and then when it came time to deliver, told the people that that the puppies didn't make it, and they will have to wait for thier next litter -- that would be fraud.


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## missbetsy

Dainerra said:


> I can't edit on my phone tonight.
> With a contract, the civil court reads over the terms of the contact to determine if there was a breach, what aspects of the contract were not fulfilled, what compensation (if any) is owed, etc
> Basically, it just comes firm to the east laws are written -some are criminal matters and are listed in that context, others are civil matters (loosely defined as affecting only the parties involved instead of the community at large)
> Someone who didn't fulfill an agreement with a specific person if considered civil as only the people he "lied to"are affected and they were willing participants in their involvement -the court will decide if he mislead then, if they simply misunderstood, and whether there was intentional deception.
> A pickpocket is a criminal matter as he is consisted a threat to everyone who might walk by
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What I am wondering about this situation though is there was NO contract between us. Nor does her website (like many breeders have) say anything about deposits being non-refundable. You fill out the puppy application and send in a deposit. The only thing I signed was on the puppy application which states you are signing to give permission for your vet to give info. to the breeder. My check was made out to her kennel not her and on the subject line I happened to write "puppy". Odd thing is I rarely, ever use the subject line on a check but this time I did. She signed the back of the check along with the name of her kennel underneath it. I am curious if there would be a difference had a contract been signed. Will it be against me that there wasn't a contract? Clearly the cashed check shows what it was for. Interesting also I filled out a form on a website where you can get suggestions from lawyers. I have gotten 3 different responses at this point. Each one in their own words suggests hiring a NY lawyer. I checked the Fillmore area and there doesn't appear to be a boat load of lawyers in that area. Kind of appears to be out in no where land.


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## selzer

missbetsy said:


> When I spoke to the State Police in Fillmore it was explained that once money was exchanged it became a civil matter. I am sure, like myself, many people see it as a theft but I guess that just isn't how it is handled. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing is the fact that there are people like this out amongst us conducting their business. Somebody else will come along and the same thing will happen to them. I am not alone in this after doing a search online and I can't figure out how she continues to get away with it.


What you would have to do is get enough evidence to make a case for fraud. Like, if you were to get afidavits from 20 people in a year that gave deposits, where she had only one dog bred, or could prove that the pictures used were of dogs she did not own, or I don't know, it seems like you have to have a preponderance of evidence to put together a case of fraud.

And yes, there are scoundrels in just about every business. But it seems like they just thrive in businesses where emotions are easily played upon. Anything to do with religion, children with injuries and illnesses, and animals are great avenues for scoundrels to prey on people.


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## Chantald

missbetsy said:


> When I spoke to the State Police in Fillmore it was explained that once money was exchanged it became a civil matter. I am sure, like myself, many people see it as a theft but I guess that just isn't how it is handled. I think what bothers me most about this whole thing is the fact that there are people like this out amongst us conducting their business. Somebody else will come along and the same thing will happen to them. I am not alone in this after doing a search online and I can't figure out how she continues to get away with it.


If you're curious about the difference between civil and criminal law, here are a few links that explain it well. 
http://www.cscja-acjcs.ca/criminal_civil_law-en.asp?l=4
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Civil_Law_vs_Criminal_Law
As well as a flow chart 








A lot of these sources are Canadian so were it says Regina, substitute the government lol


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## Chantald

And apparently the flow chart doesn't show up well, but can be found at this website 
http://www.lawlessons.ca/lesson-plans/3.1.comparing-criminal-and-civil-law


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## selzer

missbetsy said:


> What I am wondering about this situation though is there was NO contract between us. Nor does her website (like many breeders have) say anything about deposits being non-refundable. You fill out the puppy application and send in a deposit. The only thing I signed was on the puppy application which states you are signing to give permission for your vet to give info. to the breeder. My check was made out to her kennel not her and on the subject line I happened to write "puppy". Odd thing is I rarely, ever use the subject line on a check but this time I did. She signed the back of the check along with the name of her kennel underneath it. I am curious if there would be a difference had a contract been signed. Will it be against me that there wasn't a contract? Clearly the cashed check shows what it was for. Interesting also I filled out a form on a website where you can get suggestions from lawyers. I have gotten 3 different responses at this point. Each one in their own words suggests hiring a NY lawyer. I checked the Fillmore area and there doesn't appear to be a boat load of lawyers in that area. Kind of appears to be out in no where land.


When I went to talk to a lawyer, the first hour consult was $1000. This was after I went back and forth with my sister (who is an attourney) to clearly define the case, and the lawyer was willing to discuss it with me. After I put up $1000, they were then willing to work on a contingency (I think the term is, where they would take a portion of whatever the overall fee was). 

That was my only dealings with any lawyer. If you have lawyer insurance -- my brother had this, I think going after someone for a 400 dollar claim might make sense. But I really don't know how you can make this work. You might think you can sue for the cost of your legal fees as well, but after the lawyer takes your case, you will have to find a judge who is willing to hear the case and not just throw it out. You are much better off filing in small claims court for about $25, and file for your deposit + court costs + travel expenses if you have to file in her area. 

And even then, the judge might give you the whole amount, and she may give you only the deposit. 

I know it is the principle of the matter. Shilos are not AKC, so you really cannot go to the AKC. If they are UKC, if she is a UKC breeder, certainly file a complaint with the UKC. 

I hope you can get this resolved.


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## Chantald

Sorry, last post on this, and I'll just explain why it's civil in this particular case from my (admittedly small) knowledge of law.

While $400 was stolen, the money was not taken forcefully as it would be if someone entered unlawfully and stole your rainy day fund. Rather, there was an implied contract of a deposit being put down for a puppy. Money was handed over willfully, and thus a contract comes into effect. This breeder did not maintain her end of the contract. 

Shady as all heck, but falls under a dispute between two people, whereas criminal law covers things that involve the overall societal good.


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## Dainerra

missbetsy said:


> What I am wondering about this situation though is there was NO contract between us. Nor does her website (like many breeders have) say anything about deposits being non-refundable. You fill out the puppy application and send in a deposit. The only thing I signed was on the puppy application which states you are signing to give permission for your vet to give info. to the breeder. My check was made out to her kennel not her and on the subject line I happened to write "puppy". Odd thing is I rarely, ever use the subject line on a check but this time I did. She signed the back of the check along with the name of her kennel underneath it. I am curious if there would be a difference had a contract been signed. Will it be against me that there wasn't a contract? Clearly the cashed check shows what it was for. Interesting also I filled out a form on a website where you can get suggestions from lawyers. I have gotten 3 different responses at this point. Each one in their own words suggests hiring a NY lawyer. I checked the Fillmore area and there doesn't appear to be a boat load of lawyers in that area. Kind of appears to be out in no where land.


A verbal agreement can still be considered a contract. It can be a bit harder to prove than a written agreement but you still have a paper trail of the check and what it was for.
You don't need to hire an attorney that is in her actual town/area, just one that is licensed to practice in the state of New York. Many New Jersey lawyers (especially those close to the state line)are likely to be licensed in both states. A lawyer who isn't licensed in NY may not know some specifics of state law and could not represent you if the case went to trial in NY.
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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> When I went to talk to a lawyer, the first hour consult was $1000. This was after I went back and forth with my sister (who is an attourney) to clearly define the case, and the lawyer was willing to discuss it with me. After I put up $1000, they were then willing to work on a contingency (I think the term is, where they would take a portion of whatever the overall fee was).
> 
> That was my only dealings with any lawyer. If you have lawyer insurance -- my brother had this, I think going after someone for a 400 dollar claim might make sense. But I really don't know how you can make this work. You might think you can sue for the cost of your legal fees as well, but after the lawyer takes your case, you will have to find a judge who is willing to hear the case and not just throw it out. You are much better off filing in small claims court for about $25, and file for your deposit + court costs + travel expenses if you have to file in her area.
> 
> And even then, the judge might give you the whole amount, and she may give you only the deposit.
> 
> I know it is the principle of the matter. Shilos are not AKC, so you really cannot go to the AKC. If they are UKC, if she is a UKC breeder, certainly file a complaint with the UKC.
> 
> I hope you can get this resolved.


Thank you to everyone with suggestions tonight and the law lesson! I did read the chart and explanation. I have a feeling for $400 it would be a small claims case vs putting money out for a lawyer. I think it stinks that there would be a possibility of only getting the deposit back. I should get whatever expenses from postage to gas etc. that I will have to put out to go to her area. I am the one inconvenienced because of her deception and feel I should be reimbursed for it all. A couple years back I called a few lawyers offices in my area regarding a possible medical case. Each office was kind enough to chat with me and give me their thoughts for free. I may just call some lawyer offices in the Fillmore area to see what is suggested. Correct, Shilohs are not AKC. This particular kennel happens to be the founders of SSDCA and all dogs are registered ISSR. Thing is she runs the whole thing so inquiring to them would either get me her or one of her followers.


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## JakodaCD OA

She can show in ARBA, which is the American Rare Breed Association, I would contact them as well..

I would also make copies of the form you filled out on her website, just in case she decides to go in and change it from the one you signed..(unless you kept a copy of the form to begin with?)..

Not sure hiring an attorney would be worth it, unless you can get someone to go pro bono..

But I would still persue whatever avenue you can out there, and plaster where you can..

I would say "I was provided NO contract!"..so not having one, I would say wouldn't matter either way..Obviously keep your check for proof..

But yeah, I would contact ARBA..even tho she is the big kahuna of her own registry, she still shows the dogs in ARBA sanctioned shows.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I did not say that this matter should be taken up by the police. Maybe you are confusing me with another poster . I am aware that contract law generally falls under CIVIL law.





Dainerra said:


> While this is true, it is still CIVIL law not criminal. The police do not investigate civil matters.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

You exchanged money for consideration of goods/services (in this case a puppy).

A verbal contract is still binding, just harder to prove but she deposited your check and that is evidence strongly in your favor.

In some cases a check constitutes a legal contractual document. Such as if you write in the memo 'cashing/depositing this check constitutes payment in full' and the person cashes it they are accepting the terms on the check.





missbetsy said:


> What I am wondering about this situation though is there was NO contract between us. Nor does her website (like many breeders have) say anything about deposits being non-refundable. You fill out the puppy application and send in a deposit. The only thing I signed was on the puppy application which states you are signing to give permission for your vet to give info. to the breeder. My check was made out to her kennel not her and on the subject line I happened to write "puppy". Odd thing is I rarely, ever use the subject line on a check but this time I did. She signed the back of the check along with the name of her kennel underneath it. I am curious if there would be a difference had a contract been signed. Will it be against me that there wasn't a contract? Clearly the cashed check shows what it was for. Interesting also I filled out a form on a website where you can get suggestions from lawyers. I have gotten 3 different responses at this point. Each one in their own words suggests hiring a NY lawyer. I checked the Fillmore area and there doesn't appear to be a boat load of lawyers in that area. Kind of appears to be out in no where land.


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## Mr. D

There are some jurisdictions that don't consider verbal contracts to be worth their salt. To OP, you might consider cutting your losses. Just a thought.
I didn't read all the recent posts, did she cash the check? You could also talk to your bank. Pay for stop payment. Just another avenue to consider..


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## Gwenhwyfair

If you've got litigants in court (in this case probably small claims) and neither have anything in writing a judge is still going to have to make a ruling. 

*OP has the deposited check, money has exchanged hands *she doesn't have a puppy nor a promise of a puppy in the future.


Sounds like she's got a decent case.

(p.s. it's too late to stop payment, funds have been transferred long before OP knew this was going to be a problem as this was a deposit on puppy)




Mr. D said:


> There are some jurisdictions that don't consider verbal contracts to be worth their salt. To OP, you might consider cutting your losses. Just a thought.


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## Mr. D

Gwenhwyfair said:


> If you've got litigants in court (in this case probably small claims) and neither have anything in writing a judge is still going to have to make a ruling.
> 
> *OP has a deposited check, money has exchanged hands *she doesn't have a puppy nor a promise of a puppy in the future.
> 
> Sounds like she's got a decent case.


She does have a case. I was only saying some jurisdictions won't consider them. If the check was cashed, then it works in her favor. The problem is finding a lawyer willing to take the case. Especially considering it's out of state small claims. Then not to mention, she'll have spent so much more in the long run. Small claims is that, the rewards and claims are small. 

Ugh, I hate civil matters.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That's what I've been saying along in this thread....

As long as there is proof that money has been exchanged for good/services and it's above a limit (my county you cannot sue for less then $50.00) then I don't see how any jurisdiction would reject even hearing a case in small claims? 

Sometimes doing the right thing is it's own reward Mr. D.

If MissBetsy can take the time and effort to help stop this women from scamming others I applaud her. It's people like that make a difference sometimes.....




Mr. D said:


> *She does have a case.* I was only saying some jurisdictions won't consider them. If the check was cashed, then it works in her favor. The problem is finding a lawyer willing to take the case. Especially considering it's out of state small claims. Then not to mention, she'll have spent so much more in the long run. Small claims is that, the rewards and claims are small.
> 
> Ugh, I hate civil matters.


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## Mr. D

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's what I've been saying along in this thread....
> 
> Sometimes doing the right thing is it's own reward Mr. D.
> 
> If MissBetsy can take the time and effort to help stop this women from scamming others I applaud her. It's people like that make a difference sometimes.....


I don't disagree. I do hope it works out in the end.


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## martemchik

At this point it sounds like OP isn't going to get the money back unless they go to small claims court which is what they've been trying to avoid. Sadly all the other avenues they have taken won't get her any money, they will probably get the breeder a letter (if that). Like someone said, the attorney general does have the power to pull a license...but with just one complaint its unlikely they'll do that. On top of that, I truly think they have much bigger fish to fry and as much as we all like to think that our public officers are there to help us out, for them to spend even a day on a matter such as this one is probably not the best use of their time. Truth is...I bet they could ASK the breeder to see their bank statements and see if they ever deposited a check. All the breeder has to do is politely decline and that will probably be the end of that. Without a court order, the attorney general, or anyone else for that matter, can't get any of the information necessary to properly figure out this case.

Remember that long thread about the new "guidelines" or laws coming out on breeding and how one of the bigger ones was that you had to do all exchanges in person. This is precisely why. This is a really simple, and small civil matter that is now technically a federal matter because its between citizens of two different states. Now either small claims, or another court room would have to decide who is right and who is wrong and how to make things right. Its not worth it for all three parties to be involved in a court case. OP has already admitted its not worth her or her husbands time, its clearly not worth the breeder's time to be going to court, and IMO its probably not worth the judge's time to be handling this type of issue.


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## holland

Small claims is precisely for something like this-it is quite easy to go to small claims court and it sounds like the OP has already spent a fair amount of time on this issue. If she shows up at small claims court and the breeder does not she automatically is awarded the damages-that is what happened to me (not regarding a dog-rental situation) and I was awarded the money and received it back-and it was worth it too


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

Exactly!

And....if the court awards MissBetsy and the kennel owner doesn't pay she can put it to a collection agency just as you can with a bounced check. I've used collection agencies a time or two at no cost to me and they can be very, very persistent. 



holland said:


> *Small claims is precisely for something like this*-it is quite easy to go to small claims court and it sounds like the OP has already spent a fair amount of time on this issue. If she shows up at small claims court and the breeder does not she automatically is awarded the damages-that is what happened to me (not regarding a dog-rental situation) and I was awarded the money and received it back-and it was worth it too


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## JakodaCD OA

here in CT small claims is a joke,,you pay a fee to be heard, you go to court, you get your judgement, but that does not mean you'll get payment..(a friend just went thru this for 800$)..She had to pay a sheriff to track them down and serve the papers, pay the court cost, (think it was 75$),,she won, he didn't show..she THEN had to hire another sheriff to find out where his employment was, fill out paperwork to garnish his wages..the 'server' there, got a percentage..She ended up with NOTHING because the kid quit his job, and the sheriff who was supposed to keep on with tracking his employment, hasn't done a thing..

So small claims, while yes you may get a judgement, it sure doesn't mean you'll get your money back.


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## Gwenhwyfair

*Usually* when you have a judgment in your favor you can use a collection agency to get payment. 

Still doesn't guarantee it but collection agencies only get paid if they collect so...they are really incentivized to get the money.

I didn't think I'd get a couple of bounced checks collected....but I did!


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## crackem

It's the same everywhere. Getting a judgement and getting paid are 2 entirely different things unfortunately. I will be going thru the same thing shortly. Have court on Friday against some old tenants. Took almost a year to track them down but we found them. After skipped rent and 4K in damages I know we aren't going to get a dime from them, but I'm getting a judgement anyway. 

How we finally got them served? They were evicted from their current place and they actually showed up for the court date. They got handed papers for another court date, you got served ****ers  

He's self employed, so we'll never garnish anything from him. She works at a hospital, but they aren't married and they're pumping out kids pretty regularly. had 4, had one while they lived in our house, and another one is due in November. Found their baby registry while trying to track them down  So she'll likely avoid garnishment because of all her children.

But we're rather resourceful and once we get our judgement we'll continue to renew the judgement every few years till the kids grow up, they get better jobs, get an inheritance, try and buy property, etc and then collect. Or they'll just file bankruptcy and it willl all go away. I'd be inclined to show up at their hearing for that too just to make things more difficult for them.

But really, I doubt I'll ever see anything from them for the damage they did though a judgement is going to be relatively easy.


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## selzer

Some people are pretty well-versed with the judicial system and know what they can and can't get away with. Other people feel rather intimidated by it. I probably would go ahead and get the judgement against them in small claims court. That might make them pay up. If it doesn't your out 25 dollars or so and travel expenses.

Or....

You can _reason _with them. Make them an offer they can't refuse.


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## mehpenn

I haven't read everyone's posts, just the first page and the last couple.

We have a very detailed contract/agreement that must be signed by both myself and the potential puppy owner. I would never, ever, in a million years consider taking someone's money as a deposit without a signed contract. Doing so would not only put myself in jeopardy, but also the potential buyer. 
Our contract/agreement states very clearly that deposits will not be accepted until after the birth of the puppies. After the puppies reach three weeks of age, we will begin accepting non-refundable deposits. In the event the buyer chooses to not proceed with the purchase of the puppy, after a deposit has been made, we allow that deposit to be transferred to a future litter of our choosing, if the buyer decides against that option, we give them one full year to change their mind. After that one year, they loose their deposit. 
We've had people back out of a purchase and threaten to sue us for their deposit. At one point I was even contacted by an attorney. After the attorney reviewed the contract, which the potential buyer didn't disclose to him, he advised his client to not proceed further, as we had an obvious binding contract that very clearly stated the details of our agreement with their signature on it. 

Why anyone would take a deposit, or give a deposit without a signed contract is beyond me. 

At this point, small claims court may be her only way to go... but even then she may just be out her money.


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## huntergreen

mehpen....why would you not return the deposit if for some reason the litter didn't produce the "flavor" or sex the the person wanted ?


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## missbetsy

*Reply To Todays Comments....*

Thank you to everyone that has commented here today. I have been reading over it all. I checked out the ARBA website but will have to go back and look it over better. I am not seeing who to contact there but I may have missed it. I do have copies of everything pertaining to this. I am at least good with paper trails and I even printed out everything from the breeder's website in case she would change it regarding deposits etc. I am just taking the route of what has been suggested to me. Both the BBB and the Dept. of AG told me to get in touch with the Attorney Generals office which I did. I would hope that if they felt that wasn't the route to take then they wouldn't have suggested it to me. From there I will file in small claims court which will cost me $15 to file. A comment was made about the $400 not being worth the judges time. I thought that was what small claims court was for? Small amounts like this. If I thought there was even a chance that I would lose this I might be hesitant to take the time for this. Pretty plain and simple from the way I see it. She cashed my check made out to her kennel and then quit communication. There is no explanation as to why she kept my deposit. No dispute whatsoever between us because she doesn't respond. She has nothing on her end to prove that she is right in this case. I realize I may not see the $400 but at least I will know I tried. I doubt she is going to be on the run since she is the leader of the pack in the Shiloh Shepherd world. I would hope at some time it will catch up with her. I have had several people from this forum pm me asking who it is so that they do not deal with her. I will continue to try and get the word out to as many as I can. As far as to why I didn't sign a contract it was because there was none. Our previous Shiloh came from her through an acquaintance of my husbands. I trusted her because the acquaintance had purchased 3 Shilohs from the kennel without a problem. As far as going to small claims court I did say it wasn't worth our time. I probably should have added more to my comment. No, it really isn't worth it but at this point to me it is the principal of it. This breeder is conducting a business and continues to do so. The interesting part of this is she would not communicate with me however, somebody from this forum sent an e-mail to her for me. Surprisingly enough she replied back a couple times. Probably just waiting for the next person to come along with a deposit for her to keep. I talked to my husband regarding our situation and he is on the same page as me. He is the one who would do the 5 hr drive with me and take off from work. He is self employed so he can always switch a day or two around in his week without a problem. Although I would like my money back at this point it isn't so much about the money. I am sure some feel I should just let it be, learn from it, realize it is lost and move on. Will I make a difference to her business doing this? Maybe not but at least I will know I tried.


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## boomer11

lots of respect to you for going after her. im sure many people thats been scammed dont think its worth it and thats why shes gotten away with it for so long.


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## missbetsy

boomer11 said:


> lots of respect to you for going after her. im sure many people thats been scammed dont think its worth it and thats why shes gotten away with it for so long.


Thank you so much! After some of the comments today, I have to admit, I wondered if I was in the minority of thinking I was right in pursuing this.


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## JakodaCD OA

and I agree with you, for me, at this point it is the principal of it, and how many others is she doing this to???


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> and I agree with you, for me, at this point it is the principal of it, and how many others is she doing this to???


I can only imagine how many others she has done this to. Seems to be the same complaint that she keeps the deposit and then you can't get in touch with her. For others it seems that she was able to string them along more months where me it was pretty much right from the start. Most likely there are people that don't even look in to it. From some of the previous comments on this thread, there are people here that would probably not be bothered with it and let it go. Just my opinion and maybe I am wrong.


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## onyx'girl

Get a sting operation going and snag her....though I doubt the LEO's will get involved to help. Wonder if she's claiming all these deposits she's taking as income.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I think that some people who have used the judicial system haven't been happy with the outcomes. There are, however, many people who are happy with the outcomes. 

I came close to taking a car dealership to small claims over a warranty issue. I contacted an attorney he advised me of some preliminary steps to take and then if those didn't resolve the problem go to small claims.

In my case the letter threatening 'further legal action' and that I had contacted 'my attorney regarding this matter' resolved the problem.

You've already sent letters so the next step probably would be going to small claims court. My parents were small business owners for 30 years and in the course of business disputes arise. They had to go to small claims court and for them it worked in their favor.

Please keep us posted! Also on a happier note looking forward to updates about the puppy you are getting from the other breeder. 






missbetsy said:


> Thank you to everyone that has commented here today. I have been reading over it all. I checked out the ARBA website but will have to go back and look it over better. I am not seeing who to contact there but I may have missed it. I do have copies of everything pertaining to this. I am at least good with paper trails and I even printed out everything from the breeder's website in case she would change it regarding deposits etc. I am just taking the route of what has been suggested to me. Both the BBB and the Dept. of AG told me to get in touch with the Attorney Generals office which I did. I would hope that if they felt that wasn't the route to take then they wouldn't have suggested it to me. From there I will file in small claims court which will cost me $15 to file. A comment was made about the $400 not being worth the judges time. I thought that was what small claims court was for? Small amounts like this. If I thought there was even a chance that I would lose this I might be hesitant to take the time for this. Pretty plain and simple from the way I see it. She cashed my check made out to her kennel and then quit communication. There is no explanation as to why she kept my deposit. No dispute whatsoever between us because she doesn't respond. She has nothing on her end to prove that she is right in this case. I realize I may not see the $400 but at least I will know I tried. I doubt she is going to be on the run since she is the leader of the pack in the Shiloh Shepherd world. I would hope at some time it will catch up with her. I have had several people from this forum pm me asking who it is so that they do not deal with her. I will continue to try and get the word out to as many as I can. As far as to why I didn't sign a contract it was because there was none. Our previous Shiloh came from her through an acquaintance of my husbands. I trusted her because the acquaintance had purchased 3 Shilohs from the kennel without a problem. As far as going to small claims court I did say it wasn't worth our time. I probably should have added more to my comment. No, it really isn't worth it but at this point to me it is the principal of it. This breeder is conducting a business and continues to do so. The interesting part of this is she would not communicate with me however, somebody from this forum sent an e-mail to her for me. Surprisingly enough she replied back a couple times. Probably just waiting for the next person to come along with a deposit for her to keep. I talked to my husband regarding our situation and he is on the same page as me. He is the one who would do the 5 hr drive with me and take off from work. He is self employed so he can always switch a day or two around in his week without a problem. Although I would like my money back at this point it isn't so much about the money. I am sure some feel I should just let it be, learn from it, realize it is lost and move on. Will I make a difference to her business doing this? Maybe not but at least I will know I tried.


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## missbetsy

onyx'girl said:


> Get a sting operation going and snag her....though I doubt the LEO's will get involved to help. Wonder if she's claiming all these deposits she's taking as income.


Would love to! Good question about deposits! I know at my bank any checks made out to my husband's business can only go into the business account and not our personal. I didn't think anything of it one day as we go back and forth between the accounts. I needed money in the personal account and was told a big no-no and you can't do that. The check I sent the breeder was made out to her business not her name. However, I see she signed her name plus put the business underneath her name on the back. I myself would think she has a different account for the kennel but I am learning anything is possible at this point for somebody to do. With that being said I would think she would have to report the deposits.


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## missbetsy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think that some people who have used the judicial system haven't been happy with the outcomes. There are, however, many people who are happy with the outcomes.
> 
> I came close to taking a car dealership to small claims over a warranty issue. I contacted an attorney he advised me of some preliminary steps to take and then if those didn't resolve the problem go to small claims.
> 
> In my case the letter threatening 'further legal action' and that I had contacted 'my attorney regarding this matter' resolved the problem.
> 
> You've already sent letters so the next step probably would be going to small claims court. My parents were small business owners for 30 years and in the course of business disputes arise. They had to go to small claims court and for them it worked in their favor.
> 
> Please keep us posted! Also on a happier note looking forward to updates about the puppy you are getting from the other breeder.


Thank you! Yes, I will definitely keep posting here to let everyone know how this turns out. We ARE getting excited to meet our new pup! We go 11/4 to pick him out and then return for him when he hits 8 weeks. Picking the name was getting tough. The family would come up with one and each time somebody would say no. Finally one evening out of the blue one of our sons was commenting that Dodge no longer makes the Dakota trucks. We have had several Dakotas in the family and all 4 sons learned to drive in one. One particular one got passed down to each when they first got their license. My brain went Dakota and from there I just said Koda! So for once all 6 of us were fine with it. So, Koda will be the new pups name. I thought the name went well with our Maxx who is a 10 mo. old St Bernard/Bernese Mtn dog. Btw Maxx is an affectionate sweetheart of a pup! Love him to pieces!


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## Noles20

Any updates??


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## missbetsy

The only update I have is from last week. I received a letter from the State of NY Attorney General's Office. Letter states that they are intervening with my consumer dispute with the hopes their mediation will bring a resolution. They have forwarded the breeder my complaint and they are asking her for a statement and adjustment. I am waiting to hear back from them. With each step I take I always send an e-mail to the breeder. This way if needed in the future I have them all on hand that she was notified. With the months moving on it just makes it look worse for her.


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## Springbrz

Glad the NY Attorney General's office is helping you. Hope you get your refund soon.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Glad to see this update! Hoe Koda comes home soon too.


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## missbetsy

Thank you! I too hope so!


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## missbetsy

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Glad to see this update! Hoe Koda comes home soon too.


Koda is now home for a full week! "We" now all sleep through the night! In true puppy fashion he is very busy. I am enjoying his puppy fur and breath while I can. Also I can still pick him up for a hug and kiss. I just uploaded his pic.


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## middleofnowhere

Congrats on the new pup! Until I looked back, I thought the original "breeder" had followed through... Nope. Glad the AG's office is working for you. You have certainly earned your deposit back!!!


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## missbetsy

middleofnowhere said:


> Congrats on the new pup! Until I looked back, I thought the original "breeder" had followed through... Nope. Glad the AG's office is working for you. You have certainly earned your deposit back!!!


Thank you! We moved on to a breeder in PA after we never heard from the initial breeder in NY. I would like to think there is a reason for this happening.


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## missbetsy

*Kept $400 Deposit-No Communication*

It has been almost 10 mos. since I have posted and sadly I don't have much of an update. The breeder that took my deposit despite me reaching out to her numerous times quit contact with me. A quick search shows I am not alone. At this point it is not about getting my deposit back although it would be nice. The fact is she continues to take others money. Due to a review I left on Yelp a gentlemen contacted me last week. His father is now out a $1,600 deposit, cost of a plane ticket and travel expenses. Seemingly there was no puppy when he arrived and the place was filthy. I went through the BBB of NY and they also got no reply from her leaving her with an "F" rating. Since my complaint I see on the BBB of NY website several more after me. NY Dept. of AG said they could revoke her license should the NY Attorney Generals Office find she committed fraud. The AG has had my complaint along with all paperwork since Nov. 2013. I check in every 8 weeks only to get the same response from the woman. She tells me no new updates and that she is still working on it. Only once did she say they had the breeder in and that the breeder said she would return the money. The AG then asked if I got my money back. No, I did not and that was back in the spring of this year. I am frustrated that the AG has nothing to say. If this is not something they wish to pursue then tell me instead of making me check in every other month. Baffles me that the breeder is allowed to continue to take people's money. Does anybody have any experience with the AG office and if so is this the norm??:help:


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## Jax08

She is committing fraud across state lines? Have you considered talking to a lawyer and seeing what the laws are regarding this?


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## onyx'girl

I would contact your state rep and find out why the AG is so lax in following up while others are still being taken for $.


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## missbetsy

onyx'girl said:


> I would contact your state rep and find out why the AG is so lax in following up while others are still being taken for $.





Jax08 said:


> She is committing fraud across state lines? Have you considered talking to a lawyer and seeing what the laws are regarding this?


I have not contacted a lawyer at this point. I guess I foolishly was hoping that once the AG got a hold of it that I might see results. Not so much the return of my money but I really thought they would follow through and get her license pulled. I was one of the "luckier" ones where my deposit was $400 vs others who gave her over $1,000. I guess I just figured what lawyer is going to care about $400 and would refer me to small claims.......I am in NJ and I am "working" with the AG of NY. I would contact a rep in my state or NY?


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## onyx'girl

NY state rep in the area that the breeder is located. Does the AG have a good reputation?


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## Jax08

I would. I would contact everyone I could. How about NYS Attorney General? If she is doing this over the internet and across state lines then I think that falls under federal guidelines. Can you please PM me the name of the breeder?


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## JakodaCD OA

I also suggest, looking into a consumer rep in that or your area, the ones that help consumers with money problems/customer problems, that type of thing, and let them do an article or tv info on them..THAT might get something moving in your direction


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## Magwart

Jax08 said:


> She is committing fraud across state lines?


Yikes --- _that _actually opens up potential federal charges, if that's what occurred. 

Hypothetically, a series of fraud victims in multiple states, with someone devising a fraudulent scheme to take money across state lines, using the mail and deceptive internet communications...that's *possibly* a federal crime (i.e., wire fraud). 

If there are other victims that are already known, and you want to escalate it, you have the option of complaining to the local FBI office in the area where she lives.


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## Jax08

That's what I'm thinking too, Magwart


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## missbetsy

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also suggest, looking into a consumer rep in that or your area, the ones that help consumers with money problems/customer problems, that type of thing, and let them do an article or tv info on them..THAT might get something moving in your direction





Jax08 said:


> I would. I would contact everyone I could. How about NYS Attorney General? If she is doing this over the internet and across state lines then I think that falls under federal guidelines. Can you please PM me the name of the breeder?





onyx'girl said:


> NY state rep in the area that the breeder is located. Does the AG have a good reputation?


Onyx' girl: I will check regarding a NY State rep in that area of NY. As far as the AG reputation I don't know. I did a search and didn't find anything on them. Jax 08: I have been with the NYS Attorney General since last Nov.. Not knowing how they work or what their time frame is the Consumer Frauds Rep that was assigned gives me no info. I am sending you a PM with the name of the breeder. Jakoda CD OA: Last year I tried to see if there was a news station etc. near her area that helped consumers. She is in western NY and it appears she is not near a populated area....I have left a review anywhere I could find on the internet. Last week was the first time somebody else reached out to me saying she did it to their family. I see others complaints on the internet and on the BBB website so I know I am not alone. I just found this weekend 2 other places to report her. The FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center & the FTC Complaint website.


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## martemchik

I'll make this pretty clear...unless YOU take the time to prove this in court, more than likely none of the government agencies are going to touch it.

Think of it this way...if they did anything, YOU would be a witness in the court case. So why wouldn't they just allow YOU to do the work and not spend tax dollars and their own attorneys on a $400 claim.

The FBI and the AG probably have much bigger fish to fry than a $400 claim. Sorry, that's the whole reason we have criminal and civil court. This is a civil case. There is pretty much zero reason for the government to get involved unless YOU win a case and then other people come out of the woodwork and say the same thing happened to them.

Think of it this way...for an assistant attorney general or an FBI agent to do the investigating on this case for even half a day would probably cost that agency more than $400...


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## Jax08

Max - are you in law enforcement?


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## missbetsy

martemchik said:


> I'll make this pretty clear...unless YOU take the time to prove this in court, more than likely none of the government agencies are going to touch it.
> 
> Think of it this way...if they did anything, YOU would be a witness in the court case. So why wouldn't they just allow YOU to do the work and not spend tax dollars and their own attorneys on a $400 claim.
> 
> The FBI and the AG probably have much bigger fish to fry than a $400 claim. Sorry, that's the whole reason we have criminal and civil court. This is a civil case. There is pretty much zero reason for the government to get involved unless YOU win a case and then other people come out of the woodwork and say the same thing happened to them.
> 
> Think of it this way...for an assistant attorney general or an FBI agent to do the investigating on this case for even half a day would probably cost that agency more than $400...


I understand your comment. I will admit in the beginning I wanted my money back but at this point I just want this woman stopped. She frauded others before me and she continues to take from others after me. I was lucky at only $400. Most others were in the thousands. I just feel like if I went to small claims, she won't show up, I win, no deposit back and end of story. She will continue to do what she does best and that is take others hard earned money. I am trying to see if anybody here has dealt with the AG of NY. If the AG wanted nothing to do with this particular case why not be up front and quit dragging me along? It has been 10 mos. now so why are they holding on to it? Others give her bad reviews online and say they are taking a legal route. Are you telling me if I go to small claims and win and the Smiths, Jones & Browns win against her too THEN the AG of NY will get involved??


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## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> Max - are you in law enforcement?


THIS IS A CIVIL CASE...

It has nothing to do with law enforcement.


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## Jax08

Hey buddy...don't ALL CAPS me. I asked if you were in law enforcement because it sounded like you knew what you were talking about and I have no idea what you do.


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## martemchik

missbetsy said:


> I understand your comment. I will admit in the beginning I wanted my money back but at this point I just want this woman stopped. She frauded others before me and she continues to take from others after me. I was lucky at only $400. Most others were in the thousands. I just feel like if I went to small claims, she won't show up, I win, no deposit back and end of story. She will continue to do what she does best and that is take others hard earned money. I am trying to see if anybody here has dealt with the AG of NY. If the AG wanted nothing to do with this particular case why not be up front and quit dragging me along? It has been 10 mos. now so why are they holding on to it? Others give her bad reviews online and say they are taking a legal route. Are you telling me if I go to small claims and win and the Smiths, Jones & Browns win against her too THEN the AG of NY will get involved??


I don't know what their time table is, but I can tell you this. When a fraud was committed in the millions of dollars at a local company...the lady was in court and in jail within a few months. It didn't take 10 months to "just start the investigation."

Basically...if you think how class action lawsuits work, they are started out as a civil case which grows into realizing more people have been affected who then join the lawsuit as well.

I can't say 100% the AG won't do anything, but it's been 10 months and they haven't done anything. That's a lot of time. Not sure when you first made the deposit, but there is probably a statute of limitations on this as well.

Again...like I said. For her to be found guilty, there would need to be an investigation, you and all the people you have heard from would have to be witnesses in a lawsuit, and it will take a lot of time and money on the part of some sort of government agency. What I'd be interested to see is if there are happy customers. If anyone has actually received a puppy. This would be a very interesting scheme if all she did manage to constantly defraud this many people without actually providing puppies to some of them.


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## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> Hey buddy...don't ALL CAPS me. I asked if you were in law enforcement because it sounded like you knew what you were talking about and I have no idea what you do. But maybe you are just blowing smoke and being obnoxious.


I'm an accountant, so I have taken law. Consumer/civil law was a big focus then.

The thing is...this is a glorified "I paid for a product and never received it" thing.

Here is the definition of fraud...A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

This isn't fraud. The product was never provided, the breeder didn't hide any material facts about the puppy. For this to be fraud, you'd have to prove that the breeder in fact never intended to provide you with a puppy which would be fairly difficult.


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## selzer

It might be difficult to prove. Many of us want a pup from someone who only breeds a single litter in a year, or a couple, and, a single litter can have 2 puppies or not happen at all. 10 months without a puppy might be 10 months without a litter for the breeder. 

On the other hand, if someone is collecting deposits with no intention of ever delivering puppies, than $400 from each person can add up to thousands, and fraud is fraud. It should not make a difference if you are staying low enough with each individual to stay below the radar so to speak. Fraud is not fraud only if it reaches beyond $1000 per victim or $100,000 per offender. I would expect the injured party would need to swear out some form of complaint, if they can prove it is fraud.


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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> It might be difficult to prove. Many of us want a pup from someone who only breeds a single litter in a year, or a couple, and, a single litter can have 2 puppies or not happen at all. 10 months without a puppy might be 10 months without a litter for the breeder.
> 
> On the other hand, if someone is collecting deposits with no intention of ever delivering puppies, than $400 from each person can add up to thousands, and fraud is fraud. It should not make a difference if you are staying low enough with each individual to stay below the radar so to speak. Fraud is not fraud only if it reaches beyond $1000 per victim or $100,000 per offender. I would expect the injured party would need to swear out some form of complaint, if they can prove it is fraud.


I talked to the breeder only once. She said a $400 deposit would put a hold on a puppy in an upcoming litter. I waited 2 weeks after the litter was due and then contacted her after I didn't hear from her. I was told the pregnancy didn't take and to call her cell number the following day to discuss an upcoming litter. I called, left messages, e-mailed and sent a certified letter inquiring and never heard from the woman again. Whether she breeds one litter a year or a dozen the fact is she never responded to me. Took my money and that was the end. Why couldn't she contact me and discuss the situation or return the deposit if she thought she wouldn't have an upcoming litter? So, anything under $1,000 is not fraud? My head is spinning at this point. What is the proper term then when somebody takes $400 of your money? Stealing? I am trying to learn this.


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## martemchik

No...there is no money limit.

This isn't fraud UNLESS you can prove the woman never intended to provide you with a puppy. Which is almost impossible to prove in court. This is not the reason that "fraud" was created as a legal issue.

Fraud is when you do get something sold to you...but somehow have been misled about the product. So...say you are buying a house, and the homeowners tell you the roof was replaced last year, and you really like that and buy the house. A few months later, your roof leaks, and a licensed contractor tells you the roof hasn't been worked on in decades. Well...that's fraud. They told you a lie to get you to purchase something.

So in your case...you, or whatever agency you've contacted, would literally have to prove that this woman NEVER intended to provide you with a puppy. This is basically impossible to do. It is up to the prosecutors to prove this...not up to her to prove that she did intend to provide you with a puppy. It's just the way the legal system works.

Fraud about a dog could be...a breeder sells you a black and tan dog, misrepresents it as a purebred GSD, but instead you just get a mutt of some sort that looks kind of like a GSD. You expected a pure blooded GSD and the breeder explicitly told you that this was a pure GSD. That is fraud.

A huge part of why your situation isn't fraud is that a product was never provided, so you were never misled about said product.


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## BowWowMeow

Could you please PM me the name of the breeder?

Is the other person who contacted you willing to file a lawsuit with you? You definitely need to speak with a lawyer but it seems to me that it would fall under one of these definitions of fraud: Article 190 - New York State Penal Law - Frauds | NYS Laws


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## selzer

I think fraud is fraud. If you promise to give someone a tootsie roll if they pay you a nickel, and you have no intention of providing the tootsie roll, but take the nickel, that would be fraud. Would it be prosecuted? Probably not. I think that what you have is considerably more than a nickel. I am just wondering if the person you are dealing with does this regularly to people.


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## martemchik

Selzer...you're correct. But the point is, that's very very hard to prove in a court of law. How can you truly, 100%, get into my head, and prove I never intended to give you a tootsie roll for a nickel. All I'd have to say is, I did intend to give you a tootsie roll. And then what? Who is a judge/jury to believe?

There has to be pretty hard evidence of an intent to commit a fraud. In this case, there really isn't that much.

BowWowMeow...I went through that list...I really couldn't see a single category where this would fall into. Possibly the scheme to defraud in the second degree...but I believe that's where the whole idea of intent comes in. You have to be able to prove intent. And unfortunately, I really have a feeling this is a clear cut civil court case and the government generally doesn't like to stick its nose into buyer/seller disagreements unless it's really bad.


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## middleofnowhere

I'm not sure what good it would do but you could write to the AKC and file a complaint with them. It would be more effective if you got more people involved.

In my experience with small claims court:
1. you have to show up with your witnesses (if you have some)
2. then the other party can have requested that the trial be rescheduled
3. if you are suing for monetary damages, and they are rewarded, it is up to you to collect - the court does not do that for you

(this was in Oregon many years ago)


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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> I think fraud is fraud. If you promise to give someone a tootsie roll if they pay you a nickel, and you have no intention of providing the tootsie roll, but take the nickel, that would be fraud. Would it be prosecuted? Probably not. I think that what you have is considerably more than a nickel. I am just wondering if the person you are dealing with does this regularly to people.


Just seems so unfair the way the law is written. I guess this is why she continues to do this. My check clearly has in the subject line "puppy". Who sends a random person a $400 check and doesn't expect to receive something? I don't know how often she does this. From what I have read on the BBB website it is either she takes a deposit and you never hear from her again or something is wrong with the puppy. I posted on FB in a Bad Breeders group and somebody knew of her. They commented she is just like her Mom who previously ran it before she passed away.


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## Magwart

martemchik said:


> Here is the definition of fraud...A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.


Um...this garbled version common law fraud is not what the FBI or AUSA would use to determine if wire fraud had been committed. This is: 18 U.S.C. s. 1343. Federal criminal law is a whole other ball game, M. 

You can find selected precedent and discussion of elements in the US Attorneys Criminal Resource Manual. There's a boatload of precedent finding that the Internet communication counts in the definition of "interstate wire communication." 

Intent _is_ an element of wire fraud, but circumstantial evidence is often a prosecutor's best friend in fraud cases.


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## selzer

I vote send a certified letter requesting when an upcoming litter is likely to occur. Possibly have the on letter head: Dewey Cheatum and Howe. 

Make a list of all the communication you have sent, and the lack of communication in return, with dates and particulars: phone, e-mail, snail-mail, etc. Having no response from the breeder may be enough to indicate that he/she no longer intends to provide you with a puppy.


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## missbetsy

middleofnowhere said:


> I'm not sure what good it would do but you could write to the AKC and file a complaint with them. It would be more effective if you got more people involved.
> 
> In my experience with small claims court:
> 1. you have to show up with your witnesses (if you have some)
> 2. then the other party can have requested that the trial be rescheduled
> 3. if you are suing for monetary damages, and they are rewarded, it is up to you to collect - the court does not do that for you
> 
> (this was in Oregon many years ago)


It is my understanding that the Shiloh Shepherd is not AKC registered if that is the correct wording. Unfortunately I have no witness as I was the only one to talk to her. She lives 5 hours away which would mean my husband would lose pay since he is self employed to drive to NY. The fact that even if I am awarded and it doesn't mean she will pay is ludicrous to me. I know that is how it is but it seems like we are the ones penalized. I read up on the small claims court in her area. Can't collect travel expenses etc.. I guess I just feel defeated in trying to stop her. If she ignores all communication from me then there is no way I will be able to collect from this woman.


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## martemchik

missbetsy said:


> Just seems so unfair the way the law is written. I guess this is why she continues to do this. My check clearly has in the subject line "puppy". Who sends a random person a $400 check and doesn't expect to receive something? I don't know how often she does this. From what I have read on the BBB website it is either she takes a deposit and you never hear from her again or something is wrong with the puppy. I posted on FB in a Bad Breeders group and somebody knew of her. They commented she is just like her Mom who previously ran it before she passed away.


Again...this is a civil matter. It is a purchase contract. One side of the contract was partially completed (your deposit) and the other side never was due to a cut off in communication. This is not a criminal issue. That's why law enforcement agencies won't get involved. This is a simple case of breach in contract. There is nothing unfair about how the law is written. The law is not written in order to prevent this situation.

I'm sorry, but it's just simply not fraud unless YOU can prove (in court) that she never intended to provide you with a puppy.

If you want to ask "Who sends a random person a check for $400 dollars and doesn't expect to receive something?" I can ask...who sends a $400 dollar check to someone without some sort of paperwork guaranteeing a product in return?

Sorry...I'd never send someone a check of any amount of money unless I had received some sort of guarantee of the product in return.


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## martemchik

Magwart...where do you get wire fraud? There was a check sent. Nothing to do with wire fraud.

If you guys really expect the United States Federal Government to prosecute every single person that cheats someone out of $400 under federal law...I'm not sure you quite understand how our government works.


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## missbetsy

selzer said:


> I vote send a certified letter requesting when an upcoming litter is likely to occur. Possibly have the on letter head: Dewey Cheatum and Howe.
> 
> Make a list of all the communication you have sent, and the lack of communication in return, with dates and particulars: phone, e-mail, snail-mail, etc. Having no response from the breeder may be enough to indicate that he/she no longer intends to provide you with a puppy.


Loving the letterhead!! I have all my e-mails to which she never responded. Also sent a certified letter last fall that she never responded to. On the BBB of NY website my complaint is on there and the BBB states that she did not respond to the complaint. Now.....if I got a letter/phone call from the BBB regarding a complaint for my husbands business you can bet I would be responding back ASAP! Interestingly when she wasn't responding to me a member on this forum was kind enough to send a couple e-mails to the breeder. She got a reply back and forwarded them to me to show that the breeder was receiving and answering e-mails about puppies. Why she chose not to every respond or contact me is a mystery still.


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## selzer

I think it is pretty typical in the breeding world for checks to be sent for a deposit. Sometimes that is all the paperwork to reserve a puppy. 

I think that if there is a number of people who have sent deposits and have not received any communication, it could very well be proved as fraud, and I think it would be criminal, not just civil. 

The thing is, you probably need a lawyer. And because a lawyer will cost more than your deposit, most people will be unwilling to pursue it. You do not need a lawyer to notify the police, and anyone else who will listen, and maybe the squeeky wheel will get them to pursue it.


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## missbetsy

martemchik said:


> Again...this is a civil matter. It is a purchase contract. One side of the contract was partially completed (your deposit) and the other side never was due to a cut off in communication. This is not a criminal issue. That's why law enforcement agencies won't get involved. This is a simple case of breach in contract. There is nothing unfair about how the law is written. The law is not written in order to prevent this situation.
> 
> I'm sorry, but it's just simply not fraud unless YOU can prove (in court) that she never intended to provide you with a puppy.
> 
> If you want to ask "Who sends a random person a check for $400 dollars and doesn't expect to receive something?" I can ask...who sends a $400 dollar check to someone without some sort of paperwork guaranteeing a product in return?
> 
> Sorry...I'd never send someone a check of any amount of money unless I had received some sort of guarantee of the product in return.


I did send paperwork with my check. I filled out her application that was online. Near my signature it clearly states that sending a $400 deposit will give you a spot in an upcoming litter.


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> I think that if there is a number of people who have sent deposits and have not received any communication, it could very well be proved as fraud, and I think it would be criminal, not just civil.
> 
> The thing is, you probably need a lawyer. And because a lawyer will cost more than your deposit, most people will be unwilling to pursue it. You do not need a lawyer to notify the police, and anyone else who will listen, and maybe the squeeky wheel will get them to pursue it.


The point is...IF the person isn't willing to pursue this in civil court. Why would the government pursue this in criminal court? They have NOTHING to gain. If the person that does have something to gain won't do the leg work, why should a government agency?

I believe the OP has contacted the police and was told that this is a civil matter and they can't do anything about it.

Remember the police can't just do things based on ONE person's word. I can't call the police right now, tell them that so-and-so has committed a wrong against me, and expect the police to run over there and arrest them...especially when its not a clear cut criminal offense. The police have no reason to believe the caller over the person they're trying to get arrested.

In this situation...the civil matter would have to be settled way before a criminal charge would be brought up because the civil matter is the proof that the government prosecutors would use in order to show that a fraud was committed.


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## martemchik

missbetsy said:


> I did send paperwork with my check. I filled out her application that was online. Near my signature it clearly states that sending a $400 deposit will give you a spot in an upcoming litter.


missbetsy...you have the proof you need. The issue is that YOU are not willing to do what the government has set up for you to deal with this type of situation. I'm telling you, going through the AG and BBB is not the way that these things get solved. This is a breach of contract, this goes to civil court. It does not go through law enforcement agencies. It's as simple as that. You either get your money back, or you force the execution of the other side of the contract.

The truth is...the system is partially set up to prevent small claims from jamming up the system. There are only so many courts and judges and they can't afford to have every single $20 disagreement end up in court.

If you get a judgement in court...you can use that to either garnish wages, or place a lien on property owned. That's how you can "force" collection. Unfortunately, this is how the system works. If we didn't have these things set up, our court system would be even more overloaded than it already is.

If...due to your husbands/your situation, you have weighed the benefit/cost of pursuing this in court and decided against it due to the loss of wages/small chance of collection...that is a decision you have made. I believe that with everything you have done to this point (contacting BBB/AG, facebook group, posting on yelp/other internet sites) is really all you can do to stop her from doing this to someone else. The hope is that people do look at BBB before purchasing from her (if they find her) or google her name and find it along with the bad reviews.


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## Magwart

martemchik said:


> Magwart...where do you get wire fraud? There was a check sent. Nothing to do with wire fraud.
> 
> If you guys really expect the United States Federal Government to prosecute every single person that cheats someone out of $400 under federal law...I'm not sure you quite understand how our government works.


Dude, read the statute! Communicating over the Internet for the purpose of furthering the illegal scheme is an element of wire fraud, just like talking on the phone. 

The point is there are possibly other victims out there. It's possibly not just a $400 case. Until it's investigated, no one knows whatis or is not prosecutable here. Stealing small amounts from lots of victims sometimes adds up over time to very big money. None of us know the facts here -- your certainty that it's only a $400 loss is based on nothing. The point I and others are making is the case could possibly be larger, but no one knows until it's brought to the attention of law enforcement.


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## martemchik

Magwart said:


> Dude, read the statute! Communicating over the Internet for the purpose of furthering the illegal scheme is an element of wire fraud, just like talking on the phone.
> 
> The point is there are possibly other victims out there. It's possibly not just a $400 case. Until it's investigated, no one knows whatis or is not prosecutable here. Stealing small amounts from lots of victims sometimes adds up over time to very big money. None of us know the facts here -- your certainty that it's only a $400 loss is based on nothing. The point I and others are making is the case could possibly be larger, but no one knows until it's brought to the attention of law enforcement.


So...basically, OP has decided it's not worth her time/her husbands time to investigate/push this further. But the government should...that makes NO sense...

And if your whole point is to bring it up to the attention of law enforcement. OP has done that, and it's now in their court. If the AG is clearly deciding to sit on it, or maybe investigating it further (highly doubtful), then that's what they're doing. They really don't have to update OP about anything because nothing they do will affect OP's situation.

It has nothing to do with the nominal amount of money. It has more to do with the fact that this is not how these things are solved. You don't turn a breach of contract into a federal crime this easily!!!


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## Magwart

martemchik said:


> Remember the police can't just do things based on ONE person's word. I can't call the police right now, tell them that so-and-so has committed a wrong against me, and expect the police to run over there and arrest them...especially when its not a clear cut criminal offense. The police have no reason to believe the caller over the person they're trying to get arrested.


Actually, that's wrong too. The police _investigate _complaints of wrong-doing and determine whether there's probable cause for an arrest. Then if they determine there is, they go to a magistrate and present what they've found, asking the magistrate for a warrant. The point of you calling is to get them to do their job: _investigate. _Deciding whom to believe depends on what turns up in that investigation. For example, if you call and report your garage was burglarized, and you spotted the neighbor kid riding your missing mountain bike, they wouldn't say, "Well, he'll just say it's his bike, and we don't know whom to believe, so we can't do anything. So just sue him." They'll look into it. They might even eventually bust him for breaking into a bunch of garages in the neighborhood, thanks to your complaint leading them to look into him.


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## martemchik

The police investigate complaints of CRIMINAL wrong doing. Not CIVIL. Please please please read up on the differences. It's really quite simple.

Many times (like in the case of burglary) a criminal offense will lead to other civil offenses.

But in this case...this is 100% a civil offense. BREACH OF CONTRACT.

Stop talking about other examples of other crime. They don't apply here. Wire fraud, burglary, whatever else you can come up with...they're not all the same.

In regards to your burglary example...they would investigate the burglary. But it would be up to you to prove and claim your property. That is an example where the criminal investigation, leads to a happy outcome in a civil dispute (theft of a bike). In OP's example...if you want to assume the criminal offense is fraud...you generally need a civil dispute to be resolved before a criminal case will be brought (or they are brought up at the same time). So, a breach of contract would need to be resolved, and if it's bad enough, the criminal charge of fraud might be brought up in order to prevent this from happening again (even though the original person making the complaint has been made whole).

For what its worth...many times in the cases of burglary/theft. The property is held by the law enforcement officer, and both parties then try to prove that the items are theirs. That's the civil part of it.


----------



## Magwart

Please read up on the differences? If you only knew what I do for a living...hilarious.

M, I'll just stop. I'll let Betsy decide for herself whether an accountant is the best place to be getting legal advice about criminal OR civil law.


----------



## my boy diesel

> The police investigate complaints of CRIMINAL wrong doing. Not CIVIL.


this is the crux of this entire thread and situation

martem is right that this is a civil issue
now if someone had waltzed in your home and stole $400 that would be criminal
but there is a difference and as martem points out the op needs to start the legwork

start the legal process and file in small claims 
if you wont or cant then the police are surely not going to do it for you

judge judy loves cases like this btw
she is a huge dog lover

btw these type disappointments are very very very common
Top 81 Complaints and Reviews about Puppyfind.com

Top 72 Complaints and Reviews about Internet Puppies

if the ag went after all these complaints they would never sleep and have to hire boku office staff as well that would keep them busy until doomsday

there is something to be said for ensuring you are dealing with a legit and upstanding breeder and if you dont do that beforehand quite probably this is going to be the outcome :shrug:

ps ironic i just noticed your complaint is the one on top 



> I wish I had done my research


this says it all :shrug:


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I would pan a day trip up to the kennel, i would ask for my money back.
This is one tough situation


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## Gwenhwyfair

Dealt with some contract law in a past life....

I think Martemchik is making a fair argument.

One could try to pursue this as a fraud case but it's going to be harder.

IMHO breach of contract would be much easier to prove in a civil case.

Perhaps, Miss Betsy, look into contacting others who have had the same problem as you and look into a class action law suit?

I am so sorry there has been no resolution to this and it's just awful what this breeder is doing.


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## Smithie86

missbetsy said:


> I have to say I was kind of surprised to read Smithie86's post regarding not selling a puppy to somebody that just lost one. I am 52 yrs old and like my husband we have always had at least 1 or 2 dogs ALWAYS in our lives. I cannot imagine our home without one. No dog can ever replace one that has passed but they do help mend a broken heart. Two weeks after our Shiloh Shepherd passed we rescued an 8 mo. old St Bernard/Bernese Mtn dog mix. He is such a sweetie and I feel like I hit the jackpot with him. Does he replace my previous dog? Not in any way but I feel like we rescued him and vice versa. When I spoke to this particular breeder she actually told me I would have my pick of the pups she felt appropriate for our family because we had a previous puppy from her. I realize everyone is different after their family pet passes. I have 2 friends that said they would never go through it again so therefore never got another dog. We are the total opposite and I would hope a breeder would never deny me a puppy because they would miss out on a loving home where they are such an important part of our whole family.



We talk to the person(s) to ensure that the call is not a reaction from the dog passing. Believe me, I have been in the situation before where my dog passed away and my 1st reaction was to fill that void. But, I held off, so I could grieve. 

And the people that we have talked to in this situation, all but one held off for a bit to focus on their loss and then worked with us to get a dog from us or someone else that we referred them to (if we did not have a litter or it was not what they were looking for). 

All said thank you for working with them. And the one that got one right away, came back and said that they should have a least waited a few days to go through the loss.


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## missbetsy

my boy diesel said:


> this is the crux of this entire thread and situation
> 
> martem is right that this is a civil issue
> now if someone had waltzed in your home and stole $400 that would be criminal
> but there is a difference and as martem points out the op needs to start the legwork
> 
> start the legal process and file in small claims
> if you wont or cant then the police are surely not going to do it for you
> 
> judge judy loves cases like this btw
> she is a huge dog lover
> 
> btw these type disappointments are very very very common
> Top 81 Complaints and Reviews about Puppyfind.com
> 
> Top 72 Complaints and Reviews about Internet Puppies
> 
> if the ag went after all these complaints they would never sleep and have to hire boku office staff as well that would keep them busy until doomsday
> 
> there is something to be said for ensuring you are dealing with a legit and upstanding breeder and if you dont do that beforehand quite probably this is going to be the outcome :shrug:
> 
> ps ironic i just noticed your complaint is the one on top
> 
> 
> this says it all :shrug:





misslesleedavis1 said:


> I would pan a day trip up to the kennel, i would ask for my money back.
> This is one tough situation





Gwenhwyfair said:


> Dealt with some contract law in a past life....
> 
> I think Martemchik is making a fair argument.
> 
> One could try to pursue this as a fraud case but it's going to be harder.
> 
> IMHO breach of contract would be much easier to prove in a civil case.
> 
> Perhaps, Miss Betsy, look into contacting others who have had the same problem as you and look into a class action law suit?
> 
> I am so sorry there has been no resolution to this and it's just awful what this breeder is doing.


(Gwenhwyfair) I understand and do see that it would be a civil case as the State Police did inform me of that last fall. I tried contacting others that posted complaints about her on the internet and never heard back. Last week was the first time somebody contacted me after seeing my review on Yelp on behalf of his father.
(misslesleedavis1) She is a 5 hour trip away and from what I have heard about this woman I don't want to be anywhere near her. Although I would love to just appear, tell her to give me my money and come home with it I really don't think it would go down like that.
(myboydiesel) I have been following the suggestions of others since last fall. I have noticed posts here commenting to me that people aren't going to do this for me. I wouldn't expect them to. I went down the line from each agency. I didn't just file a complaint with the AG of NY. I have all my paperwork and thought I was going through the proper channels. The BBB of NY advised me that I was not the first complaint and urged me to file with the AG. As did the Dept. of AG. I really was hoping that when I got to the AG of NY that others had done the same and that possibly there were other complaints there. The Frauds Rep assigned to it basically tells me nothing about the process. Therefore, I updated here from last year hoping somebody might know something about how it works. I was hoping to avoid small claims because I almost feel like sadly it is a waste. I will get awarded, she won't pay and will continue to take others money. I get that the AG gets many, many complaints. If they felt they couldn't help then they should have said so from the beginning. As for not doing my research prior to sending the deposit I admit I made a big error that way. Had I not had a previous puppy from their kennel nor had an acquaintance of the family not purchased 3 puppies without incident I would have been doing a search on them. I had no reason to believe that I would have an issue with them. Again, I was hoping to be able to make a difference so that she didn't do the same to others. Sadly I feel defeated because I feel like laws etc. are set up for people to take advantage of a person.


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## my boy diesel

> Sadly I feel defeated because I feel like laws etc. are set up for people to take advantage of a person.


no they are not
you have to admit that people do this to themselves 

there are plenty of avenues you have not yet explored to get your money back!

as someone else said
drive there personally and ask her for your money or your puppy
bring all your paperwork with you so she is reminded of your deposit sent

but people who send money to a less than stellar breeder with plenty of evidence available that they may be gonna rip you off, do this to themselves i am sorry to say


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## martemchik

Laws aren’t set up for people to take advantage of others. If you take the avenue that is set up for your exact situation, you’d get a resolution. The legal system is set up to protect BOTH parties. This way, people aren’t just going around making false claims about others and getting the government/law enforcement involved over small or false claims.

Like I said…IF (huge if) the government were to prosecute this breeder for fraud…they’d need proof. YOU and your situation would be the proof. Problem is, your word isn’t enough, even the paper work you have isn’t just an exhibit. What would be proof, is you winning a civil suit that says that your proof is enough and that a jury/judge believes that the breeder didn’t meet her end of the deal and only then can you stretch that to a fraud case in which you could try to convince a different jury that she never intended to provide you with a puppy.

Our legal system is very complex, but it has to be in order to protect everyone. The government can’t just take the word of one person or a small group of people, and prosecute/investigate on their behalf. Imagine what would happen if someone got mad at me, decided to call the police, and all the sudden they show up at my work and start questioning me…no matter if I “get off” or not…my reputation would be ruined, and then what? That’s where civil court comes in. You have an issue with me, you sue me, we go to court, and have a jury figure out who’s wrong and who’s right. It really doesn’t matter that your story/situation is pretty cut and dry and any reasonable person would side with you, you still need to do this through the legal system and have a judgment ruled in your favor. You need to prove your story, people (including the AG and everyone else you’ve contacted) can’t just take your word for it.

I get it…you feel a bit screwed and it feels like the laws are against you. But think about it if it were switched. Say you sold something to someone, the deal felt good and done, then all the sudden the police show up and say they’ve gotten a call that you took that money without giving the person the property in return? And for no other reason than that person calling them first, they believed them and started to ask you questions and still believed them over you because you cashed a check and they’ve hidden the property and the police just said, “see they don’t have the item.” Wouldn’t you want your day in court against your accuser? Sixth amendment is quite important. The way you’re doing things, you’re trying to get around that. And the government just can’t do that.


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## missbetsy

my boy diesel said:


> no they are not
> you have to admit that people do this to themselves
> 
> there are plenty of avenues you have not yet explored to get your money back!
> 
> as someone else said
> drive there personally and ask her for your money or your puppy
> bring all your paperwork with you so she is reminded of your deposit sent
> 
> but people who send money to a less than stellar breeder with plenty of evidence available that they may be gonna rip you off, do this to themselves i am sorry to say


Okay, okay I get that I got ripped off because I didn't do my research. I have admitted that repeatedly and again am hoping to not let her continue to ripoff others.......As for driving to her home and asking for my money back I feel that is a really, really bad idea to confront this woman on her doorstep. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. If she doesn't respond to me or the agencies reaching out to her I seriously doubt she will fork over $400 on her doorstep........I would love to hear the other avenues I haven't explored yet. I am looking for any suggestions! :help:


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## missbetsy

martemchik said:


> Laws aren’t set up for people to take advantage of others. If you take the avenue that is set up for your exact situation, you’d get a resolution. The legal system is set up to protect BOTH parties. This way, people aren’t just going around making false claims about others and getting the government/law enforcement involved over small or false claims.
> 
> Like I said…IF (huge if) the government were to prosecute this breeder for fraud…they’d need proof. YOU and your situation would be the proof. Problem is, your word isn’t enough, even the paper work you have isn’t just an exhibit. What would be proof, is you winning a civil suit that says that your proof is enough and that a jury/judge believes that the breeder didn’t meet her end of the deal and only then can you stretch that to a fraud case in which you could try to convince a different jury that she never intended to provide you with a puppy.
> 
> Our legal system is very complex, but it has to be in order to protect everyone. The government can’t just take the word of one person or a small group of people, and prosecute/investigate on their behalf. Imagine what would happen if someone got mad at me, decided to call the police, and all the sudden they show up at my work and start questioning me…no matter if I “get off” or not…my reputation would be ruined, and then what? That’s where civil court comes in. You have an issue with me, you sue me, we go to court, and have a jury figure out who’s wrong and who’s right. It really doesn’t matter that your story/situation is pretty cut and dry and any reasonable person would side with you, you still need to do this through the legal system and have a judgment ruled in your favor. You need to prove your story, people (including the AG and everyone else you’ve contacted) can’t just take your word for it.
> 
> I get it…you feel a bit screwed and it feels like the laws are against you. But think about it if it were switched. Say you sold something to someone, the deal felt good and done, then all the sudden the police show up and say they’ve gotten a call that you took that money without giving the person the property in return? And for no other reason than that person calling them first, they believed them and started to ask you questions and still believed them over you because you cashed a check and they’ve hidden the property and the police just said, “see they don’t have the item.” Wouldn’t you want your day in court against your accuser? Sixth amendment is quite important. The way you’re doing things, you’re trying to get around that. And the government just can’t do that.


If you were in my situation now and yes I know, I know you wouldn't be because you would have done your research I get it. Would your route now be small claims? I just don't know enough to what happens afterwards. I understand that they cannot make her pay. Is this then listed that I won a judgement against her then what? Does it help further on down the line should somebody else come along and take her to small claims? How would my judgement help others? Just trying to understand.........Yes, I would want to tell my side if I were accused. When she didn't reply to the BBB on 3 occasions that to me showed that she knew she was wrong. I honestly am surprised she didn't respond and tell some fabricated story that she did reach out to me etc.. Any complaints I have made online etc. she had never commented to.


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## martemchik

All you can do now, is help yourself. You go to small claims, get a judgment and you can try to collect. I believe you can try to then garnish her wages (if she has a W2 job) or possibly (not 100%) put a lien on her property…in which case, the property can’t be sold until the lien is settled.

It’s not about being/not being in your situation. It’s about what there is to settle a contractual dispute. What happened to you could’ve happened to anyone. I get it, you’re trying to prevent it from happening to others, but there is only so much you can do, people have to make their own decisions and be responsible as well. You’ve posted all the reviews, you’ve talked about your story, you’re on record with the BBB, if someone decides to do their research they’ll find your story. And hopefully your story will stop them from making the same mistake you did.

I’m sorry…but it’s almost just as unfair for you to try to shut down her business. I get it, she did something wrong, but unless you can prove this in court…it’s your word against hers. So just imagine if someone filed a claim against your husband and his business and the government just showed up and started questioning/trying to take away his ability to do business. How would you feel? The government doesn’t and really shouldn’t have that kind of power is what I’ve been trying to get across. They really shouldn’t be sticking their hands on private contracts and private disputes.

The BBB is a private entity. You should understand that it has very little power. It has no relationship with the government and has no licensing power when it comes to businesses, they can’t do anything to anyone and the information they give is very limited. Truth is, they can get in a lot of trouble if they’re giving out false information about a business. She didn’t respond to them, because she doesn’t care. Do you want to know how many people use the BBB before using a business…I have a feeling it’s less than 10%. I can tell you that I’ve NEVER used the BBB to figure out if a business is good or not. I could care less if they have the “accredited” sticker somewhere on their window.

At this point…you have to worry about making yourself whole. Not her doing this to other people. If you’ve decided that it’s not worth your time/money to get this $400 back. Then you just need to let this go. I might be wrong about the Attorney General, they might be doing something, but at this point, with what you’ve been told, and the time that’s elapsed, it’s unlikely they’re going to get anywhere. I mean, I’ll be very happy if a few months from now you post and I get proven wrong…

You’re kind of hung up on the fact that we keep mentioning that you’ve been scammed…but it’s not about that. You just have to accept that other people have the same personal responsibility to do their research and not let this happen to themselves. It’s not up to you to protect them.

It sounds like you know people that have gotten dogs from her before? That means she’s not doing this to everyone. I’m not sure why she decided to do this to you, or why she did this to other people. But this is why the government did just make a law against shipping puppies. Fact is, any time you deal with commerce across state lines and you don’t have ability to protect yourself in the courts (the funds to sue), you’re leaving yourself open for this kind of stuff to happen. This is the reason why people use Amazon/ebay/paypal…it gives them the peace of mind that they will get their product, and why websites like craigslist warn you to only deal with local people and not ship products/send money.


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## Smithie86

Even if people do their research thoroughly, scams and issues like this still happen. Friend a few years ago worked with a known importer that posted all over and had a good rep. Friend bought an incredible bloodline puppy and did not get the SV papers. This dog was for IPO work, etc. She bought the dog with the assurances of papers. 

She did her due diligence and thoroughly researched and talked to people that dealt with this importer prior; no issues. But, much later, other issues came to light. The reason was that the issues were hushed up.

There was someone in Columbus, OH years ago that was an active trainer, part of clubs in the area. Everyone knew him. People dealt with him, due to who he trained with and whose clubs he was part of All was OK the first litters. Then, the issues happened all at once.

So, do not automatically assume.....


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## Gwenhwyfair

It usually does become a public record. Also if you win you can post that online on the review sites as a matter of record without worrying about it being considered slander. A court case in your favor would help others who check into this breeder.





missbetsy said:


> If you were in my situation now and yes I know, I know you wouldn't be because you would have done your research I get it. Would your route now be small claims? I just don't know enough to what happens afterwards. I understand that they cannot make her pay.* Is this then listed that I won a judgement against her then what? * Does it help further on down the line should somebody else come along and take her to small claims? How would my judgement help others? Just trying to understand.........Yes, I would want to tell my side if I were accused. When she didn't reply to the BBB on 3 occasions that to me showed that she knew she was wrong. I honestly am surprised she didn't respond and tell some fabricated story that she did reach out to me etc.. Any complaints I have made online etc. she had never commented to.


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## blueangele

I'm not sure if it has been said, but I would get a hold of a local news investigative reporter, give them your information, tell them where they can find the information of the other people, and let them have a go at it. They can get done wonders


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## JakodaCD OA

small claims is a joke, you pay to file your claim, probably in the state SHE resides in, you get a judgement, that does not mean you'll get the money back.

A friend of mine just went thru it,,couldn't garnish wages the guy didn't have a job..You need a SHERIFF (which you have to pay for) to serve them, garnish the wages, the sheriff gets a 'cut', person who 'wins' usually gets nothing in the end.

I also think getting a hold of a local news investigator is the way to go, you may never see your money, but 'news' gets out there and sometimes THAT gets results..

To add, no I wouldn't show up their doorstep either, I'm sure she doesn't live alone, probably a crazy bunch living there..IF I were to show up, it would be with the cops.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I believe you can also use a collection agency if you win a case. I've used them for bad checks. Most collection agencies collect their fee from the debtor. They don't get paid unless they collect.

They know how to make a person's life miserable until they pay.

I had one bad check I thought would never be made good, but it was.


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## CassandGunnar

There has been some good advice given so far and some HORRIBLE advice.
Interstate Small Claims Court is probably a waste of your time. What Diane said is spot on. a vast majority of people that prevail in Small Claims Court never see a dime of money, and end up losing more time/money/sanity going through the process.
I'm not an attorney, but I had a lot more than a few courses in college about business/civil/criminal law. (I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express a few times as well and over 25 years law enforcement experience)

No matter what, it IS NOT your job to "prove" anything in this instance. From what you've laid out so far, there is more than enough information to warrant a closer look/investigation. Sadly, in most States, the Attorney General is not the entity that completes investigations. (They leave that to law enforcement)
To skip over all the completely erroneous information given here, the first step in any investigation is a complaint. Your best bet here would be to gather all the information/documents that you have and make copies of them and then take the information to meet with the police agency in your town.
They can advise you from there as to what needs to be done next.

Good luck


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## Gwenhwyfair

I took law classes in college too.

Unless someone here *is* an attorney nothing is definitive.

MissBetsy would need to hire an attorney to sort out what her best course of action is.

In my experience with contract law it sounds like this case would fit a breach of contract and the local police already told MissBetsy this is a civil matter.


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## JakodaCD OA

the whole thing with hiring a lawyer is , money, you (general you) would end up paying the lawyer more than what she is owed from the breeder.. I agree persuing it because of prinicpal, and nice to be able to get that money back, BUT, who 's a millionaire that can afford to pay a lawyer to collect? Unless of course the breeder is made to pay lawyer fees as well,,that would be a bonus.


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## martemchik

CassandGunnar said:


> No matter what, it IS NOT your job to "prove" anything in this instance. From what you've laid out so far, there is more than enough information to warrant a closer look/investigation. Sadly, in most States, the Attorney General is not the entity that completes investigations. (They leave that to law enforcement)
> To skip over all the completely erroneous information given here, the first step in any investigation is a complaint. Your best bet here would be to gather all the information/documents that you have and make copies of them and then take the information to meet with the police agency in your town.
> They can advise you from there as to what needs to be done next.
> 
> Good luck


Completely false. If you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. The "defense" in this case, doesn't have to prove their innocence. You have to prove that they're guilty.

The local police department in that area already told her that they can't do anything. And her local department doesn't have jurisdiction there. So they're not going to be doing any investigating. If OP won't take the 5 hour drive up there to do anything, you really expect one of her local officers to do so? Come on...

Again, there is no investigation necessary. This is a civil matter that needs to be settled in court. In court is where the investigation happens. Basically during the "discovery" phase of the proceedings. The police department will not help with this investigation as they are not being paid by the OP to investigate personal claims.


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## lalachka

If the cops really wanted to they could've built a case. There's enough to go on. It can be proven she hasn't bred any dogs to sell (my opinion) or that she took more deposits than she bred. 
Lots of work needs to be done and it's not worth it to them but if, let's say, if was someone high up that wanted her to go down this woild be a fraud case in a minute. 

She did commit fraud, cops don't want to mess with it and so they keep bouncing op from one place to another


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## CassandGunnar

martemchik said:


> Completely false. If you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you. The "defense" in this case, doesn't have to prove their innocence. You have to prove that they're guilty.
> 
> The local police department in that area already told her that they can't do anything. And her local department doesn't have jurisdiction there. So they're not going to be doing any investigating. If OP won't take the 5 hour drive up there to do anything, you really expect one of her local officers to do so? Come on...
> 
> Again, there is no investigation necessary. This is a civil matter that needs to be settled in court. In court is where the investigation happens. Basically during the "discovery" phase of the proceedings. The police department will not help with this investigation as they are not being paid by the OP to investigate personal claims.



Just wow. PLEASE stick to accounting. You have ZERO future in law enforcement. Let me guess, you've watched every episode of NYPD Blue.

To the OP, please consider my original advice and go and actually speak (not a phone call) to an investigator. There is more than enough to begin a CRIMINAL investigation.
In spite of what the genius I quoted will say, there is a substantial difference in what it takes to begin a criminal investigation and what is necessary for a civil suit.

Again, I wish you luck.


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## Jax08

CassandGunnar said:


> To the OP, please consider my original advice and go and actually speak (not a phone call) to an investigator. There is more than enough to begin a CRIMINAL investigation.
> In spite of what the genius I quoted will say, there is a substantial difference in what it takes to begin a criminal investigation and what is necessary for a civil suit.


Which is exactly what I was told last night by my LEO friend and I sent you (OP) in a PM. I'm more inclined to listen to the people with the actual criminal backgrounds than internet noise.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...yet really it's the only recourse MissBetsy has.

We aren't lawyers, including those of us who took some law in college.

The local police already told her they won't pursue it, it's a civil case.

She can file in small claims herself or speak to a lawyer about other possible options.

Other then just dropping the whole thing and moving on I don't see any other options?





JakodaCD OA said:


> the whole thing with hiring a lawyer is , *money, you (general you) would end up paying the lawyer more than what she is owed from the breede*r.. I agree persuing it because of prinicpal, and nice to be able to get that money back, BUT, who 's a millionaire that can afford to pay a lawyer to collect? Unless of course the breeder is made to pay lawyer fees as well,,that would be a bonus.


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## martemchik

The OP has already stated the police told her they won't do anything, you still tell her to push? This happened almost a year ago now...and things have changed since then?

The simplest thing is a lawyer and court. Not relying on law enforcement which has already told her they won't do anything. You can plead and beg all you want for a state prosecutor to bring a case up, but if they don't feel like its worth their time, they're probably not going to. You really don't think the state prosecutors don't have bigger fish to fry? Basically, the advice to push for other agencies to do the investigation sounds to me like..."I don't feel like its worth my time and money to pursue this, but I'd like for someone else to do it." Do you really think these people are going to put in the effort over something like this when there are much bigger criminals running around out there?

I have a feeling if we heard about this story from the other side...state prosecutor goes after breeder for $400 deposit, most of us would be screaming what a big waste of tax payer funds that is. And sure, it looks like there are more people that have been taken by this woman, but the fact that they won't even answer OP says to me that they've moved on and probably don't care to pursue this further either. It's unfortunate, but that's how our system works.

lalachka...you live in New York. Call your state prosecutor, and your congressman, let them know you want this pursued. See what they say to you.


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## Jax08

An accountant arguing with an LEO on what constitutes a crime. Because you would know better than an actual police officer? You are the expert on everything, aren't you? Because you took a couple of law classes with your accounting degree? Arrogant much? Next time I need a lawyer, I'll just go visit my CPA.


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## martemchik

The OP stated they've talked to the police. Why does that not matter? They talked to them when all this started. They did nothing. You expect them to change their mind a year later? What? Bring them a law book with the chapter on fraud highlighted and ask them nicely to pursue this based on a few emails and whatever other communication you have?

Sounds like a wonderful use of public funds.

It's not worth the OP's time to drive up there and talk to the person, but it's worth the local police departments? Oh that's right. The small town NEW JERSEY (I believe) cop is going to drive all the way up to New York and have a talk with this person over a few emails. Makes sense.

I'm looking at this objectively. The work the OP has done is pretty amazing. In a year, they've gotten information from various people that this has happened to. And according to OP, only one has really continued the emailing/communicating with OP about this. So it took OP...a year to get all this. And now, you guys are expecting some form of investigative body to spend some more time doing this?

I'm telling you...hiring a lawyer, letting that lawyer take control of this, would move things along much quicker, and probably resolve this much faster than hoping that a) the police uncover enough information to get a fraud charge and b) getting a state prosecutor to pursue the court case.

Issue with the lawyer is...maybe she's done this to 10 people. For an average of $1000 each. So $10,000. That means the lawyer could take this on a % basis. So lets call it 20%. So $2000 total. That's what? 4 billable hours for a lawyer? So what lawyer would take this?

I also have a feeling if this was such a huge scam...OP wouldn't be the first or only person in the last year that would've found our forum and talked about this. But in all this time...there's been one person. And we have plenty of member in and around that area...yet no one has heard of this or has run into the same issue.


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## my boy diesel

in small claims court you can ask for attorney fees
if the breeder does not show the judge will rule in your favor

and no matter who beats their chest , rends their clothing and cries criminal case it is still a _civil_ case
sorry but that is how this works

get an attorney on board and in your case list you want reimbursement for attorneys fees



> I feel that is a really, really bad idea to confront this woman on her doorstep.


you would not go alone 
take someone with you 
a couple people and a recorder of some sort even if hidden

what harm does it go to a persons house and say you would like to figure it out (approach in in that manner)
say you had paid a deposit and perhaps communication got lost in the mail or something but you are hoping to get a puppy from this gal

and of course when that does not turn out as you want then say Well then can I at least get my money refunded?
non confrontational and non emotional wins every time


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## lalachka

I don't agree that this is civil. If she put a deposit on a litter and then turned out it was a false pregnancy or there weren't enough pups or not the right something and she now has to wait until the next litter - then yeah, it's civil. 

But when someone collects money for pups that don't exist and that she never intended on providing (or you don't agree that this is the case?) then it's criminal. 

Yeah, maybe the cops don't want to open a case because there's lots to be done and hard to prove but this is not civil. This is a scheme that happens to do with dogs. She's collecting money under false pretenses


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi Lala,

The problem is the local police have already told MissBetsy it is a civil matter. That pretty much sets up the whole situation from that point forward.

So really since they are the local authorities, who are trained to determine whether an issue should be pursued as criminal case according to the laws of their jurisdiction, we should defer to their judgement.

I have more experience with business contract law and this does also fit the parameters of breach of contract. It really does and IMHO *if* MissBetsy wishes to follow this through she would probably have better luck going that route. Better luck because there's no guarantee either way, civil or criminal.






lalachka said:


> I don't agree that this is civil. If she put a deposit on a litter and then turned out it was a false pregnancy or there weren't enough pups or not the right something and she now has to wait until the next litter - then yeah, it's civil.
> 
> But when someone collects money for pups that don't exist and that she never intended on providing (or you don't agree that this is the case?) then it's criminal.
> 
> Yeah, maybe the cops don't want to open a case because there's lots to be done and hard to prove but this is not civil. This is a scheme that happens to do with dogs. She's collecting money under false pretenses


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## martemchik

lalachka said:


> But when someone collects money for pups that don't exist and that she never intended on providing (or you don't agree that this is the case?) then it's criminal.
> 
> Yeah, maybe the cops don't want to open a case because there's lots to be done and hard to prove but this is not civil. This is a scheme that happens to do with dogs. She's collecting money under false pretenses


You’re assuming this based on the information given from one side. Anyone with a history of breeding, or with a few intact dogs, can prove that they did have intent to produce a puppy and sell it to the OP.

The fact is…you can plead and beg all you want with the authorities, if they don’t want to bring up a criminal charge, they don’t have to. If they don’t believe they have the evidence, or it’s just not worth their time, they don’t have to bring a criminal charge against this person. Right now…there is one story, and one witness who doesn’t want to press civil charges herself because she’s admitted it’s not worth her time. And yet…we expect the federal prosecutor to believe it’s worth their time to do so? On what grounds?

The other people that have contacted OP? Who knows what their stories are like? Who knows if they’ll be willing to be a witness in this case? A trial takes a minimum of one day, one day that most people will not give up…especially when a criminal case won’t get them anything. The court cannot force them to repay this money from a criminal proceeding. So either way, to get money back, all the people this has happened to…would have to file their own lawsuits.

There is also no license necessary to breed dogs or run this type of business. Unless she’s running a large puppy mill type thing, she’s not really inspected by anyone and issued any sort of paperwork. So this is probably just someone that produces a few litters a year and sells them. Maybe she’s realized that for whatever reason she can do this to a few out of state folks a year. In either case, more than likely, she gets a slap on the wrist (unless she has a prior criminal history) and goes right back to doing what she’s doing.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hi Lala,
> 
> The problem is the local police have already told MissBetsy it is a civil matter. That pretty much sets up the whole situation from that point forward.
> 
> So really since they are the local authorities, who are trained to determine whether an issue should be pursued as criminal case according to the laws of their jurisdiction, we should defer to their judgement.
> 
> I have more experience with business contract law and this does also fit the parameters of breach of contract. It really does and IMHO *if* MissBetsy wishes to follow this through she would probably have better luck going that route. Better luck because there's no guarantee either way, civil or criminal.


I have a feeling they just didn't want to mess with it. And i understand why. Extremely difficult to prove, much work to be done and she will probably get off. 

But IF she never intended to provide pups (and that's what I believe and that's what I'm basing this on) then it's fraud. Just because she's getting away with it doesn't make it not fraud. 

But i agree. OP has better chance with civil only because the burden of proof is lesser than in criminal. 



Martem, yes, I'm basing it on what I read here and other places. That's how all posts work, people read and come to conclusions based on what they read. 

So based on what i read I believe that she never intended to provide pups and is just collecting deposits on her mom's reputation. She's scamming everyone that calls her so if she only scammed 10 people, let's say, it's not because she's picking and choosing but because only 10 people were wiling to send money. 

And yes, once again, it's extremely difficult to prove. But it doesn't make it not criminal just because it can't be proven. She commited fraud that she was able to get away with.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sounds like we are on the same page with our opinions.

Agree that the police don't want to mess with it for the reasons you state as well.





lalachka said:


> I have a feeling they just didn't want to mess with it. And i understand why. Extremely difficult to prove, much work to be done and she will probably get off.
> 
> But IF she never intended to provide pups (and that's what I believe and that's what I'm basing this on) then it's fraud. Just because she's getting away with it doesn't make it not fraud.
> 
> *But i agree. OP has better chance with civil only because the burden of proof is lesser than in criminal.
> *
> 
> 
> Martem, yes, I'm basing it on what I read here and other places. That's how all posts work, people read and come to conclusions based on what they read.
> 
> So based on what i read I believe that she never intended to provide pups and is just collecting deposits on her mom's reputation. She's scamming everyone that calls her so if she only scammed 10 people, let's say, it's not because she's picking and choosing but because only 10 people were wiling to send money.
> 
> And yes, once again, it's extremely difficult to prove. But it doesn't make it not criminal just because it can't be proven. She commited fraud that she was able to get away with.


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## Jelpy

Look. as far as I know you always have the RIGHT to file a police report. The police may decide not to pursue it but you have the right to file. See I had something similar happen with a gate I purchased that never got delivered. After being nice long enough I filed a police report and sent the jerk a message saying I had filed a report, here is the number and any if I make any future public references about him, and the business he owns I can correctly state that fraud charges have been filed with the local police dept. He didn't like that and after 2 months of fobbing off I got my month via paypal that night. 

Jelpy


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## my boy diesel

none of us know nor can we rightly say this breeder did not intend to provide a pup
eventually!
which is why it is not a criminal case yet
and it might not ever be one


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> none of us know nor can we rightly say this breeder did not intend to provide a pup
> eventually!
> which is why it is not a criminal case yet
> and it might not ever be one


Lol true. But the fact that she's dodging everyone that paid buy replies to new customers saying she has pups doesn't look too good for her

But yeah, she will get away with it. It's not worth snyone's time. What comes around goes around though.


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## JakodaCD OA

eventually ? as in YEARS? I seriously doubt this person (breeder) had any intentions of selling the OP anything, it's all about money


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## onyx'girl

Responsible reputable breeders don't continue to take deposits for pups they aren't supplying. I would never ever give a deposit to one that has this type track record. Those that are doing so need to do better homework.


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## my boy diesel

lol you act as if i know for a fact
i dont know anything about her!
but i see others complaining about the health and temperaments of her pups 
(do a google search on the breeder) so obviously some of them got puppies



> Those that are doing so need to do better homework.


ayup
google is a marvelous tool!!


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## JakodaCD OA

if your post is referring to my post, yes I know quite a bit about them, and yes 'fact'.


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## my boy diesel

no i said you act like i know that as a fact and i dont
i dont even know the person or kennel in question :shrug:

i mean i could see this going like this
op goes to court and tells judge 
this breeder has my money and i have no puppy
breeder says to judge 
i was gonna give her a puppy out of this next litter
:shrug:


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## lalachka

She does seem to be breeding. I was wrong. This is even weirder now


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## ShastinaMama

"I was gunna give her a puppy..."

That excuse would only work if that kind of wordage is on the contract.

The fact is the OP paid for "property" she did not receive. Whatever the sellers intention was or is doesn't justify the buyer not receiving said property.

If there is a signed contract, then the seller has no legal excuse. But again, it depends on what the actual contract says.

I do doubt that it says, 'Pay me x-dollars and I'll give you a pup when I feel like it. Trust me, my intentions are good, and by the way, don't panic if you never hear from me again - it's all good...'


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## my boy diesel

there was no contract


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## ShastinaMama

*falls off her chair*

Okay well, I need to shutup and juz be quiet and read.

Sorry..

*climbs back on her chair and tries to look innocent*


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## selzer

ShastinaMama said:


> "I was gunna give her a puppy..."
> 
> That excuse would only work if that kind of wordage is on the contract.
> 
> The fact is the OP paid for "property" she did not receive. Whatever the sellers intention was or is doesn't justify the buyer not receiving said property.
> 
> If there is a signed contract, then the seller has no legal excuse. But again, it depends on what the actual contract says.
> 
> I do doubt that it says, 'Pay me x-dollars and I'll give you a pup when I feel like it. Trust me, my intentions are good, and by the way, don't panic if you never hear from me again - it's all good...'



If you scroll down to the breeding topics, I bet you can find people who believe you should not breed your bitch unless you have so many deposits. 

Some breeders won't take a deposit unless puppies are on the ground. Of course they then fall into the _other _type of breeders because they bred their bitch without so many deposits. :crazy:

With living things, if you send a deposit and puppies are not on the ground, then you cannot guaranty that you will get puppies within six months or even a year. If the bitch misses, there will be no puppies. So your deposit is in limbo until the bitch is bred again. And then, maybe she takes, maybe she doesn't. 

If you wont to avoid this scenario, do not give a deposit until pups are on the ground. However, you must remember that they are living creatures, and in the eight weeks many things can happen, canine herpes can kill an entire litter. The bitch can lay on a pup and then you only have 2 males, and 3 deposits for males. 

Usually, if you wait until pups are on the ground, the deposit is written such that if the breeder cannot produce the puppy, the deposit will be returned. If the buyer decides against a pup from the litter, they can either move their deposit to another litter, or they forfeit their deposit.


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## my boy diesel

> I'll give you a pup when I feel like it.


actually i did some more reading and found the breeder site and yes actually it does say pretty much exactly that

but keep in mind that is a website and nothing in the way of a contract was signed by the op at all
unless you (or the law) considers the act of sending a deposit entering into a contract :shrug:


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## Youreamonkey274

my boy diesel said:


> there was no contract


IMHO there most certainly was a legally enforceable contract made between the OP and the breeder. An oral contract is just as binding as a written one. Contract law states that in order to have a legally enforceable contract there must be an offer, an acceptance, a meeting of the minds, and the contract must be in regards to something of value to both parties. The breeder made an offer (selling puppies) through advertising on the website. The OP accepted the offer by filling out the application and paying the deposit. There was a meeting of the minds when the OP talked to breeder on the phone for 45 minutes, going over when the litter was due, etc. I would even argue that the meeting of the minds was confirmed when the breeder cashed the check for the deposit. 



ShastinaMama said:


> "I was gunna give her a puppy..."
> 
> That excuse would only work if that kind of wordage is on the contract.


I think even though the breeder apparently writes on her website that she has the right to substitute a puppy of equal or higher value (or something like that), it is my understanding that when proving a breach of contract case, unless a time frame is specifically noted in the contract (ex. I have 10 years to get you a puppy), then the court should consider the contract breached after a "reasonable" amount of time has passed. In the case of this particular breeder, I would say that a year is PLENTY of time to provide the OP with a pup considering she has literally like 20 "upcoming litters" listed on her website. 

So, in my opinion, no lawyer needed, small claims simple breach of contract case would be too easy to win. I did read that the OP doesn't want to go that route, just wanted to add my 2 cents  And let her know...it would not be hard to prove. 

As far as a case for fraud (and I know NOTHING about fraud). But if the OP can prove (through complaints from others on the internet saying they have received sick dogs SINCE she made the deposit) that the breeder did not act in good faith when she entered into the contract and cashed the check for the deposit, then she might have a case for civil contract fraud? By cashing the check and then having no further communication for over a year, I would assume that the breeder had no intentions of ever selling the OP a puppy. Had she acted in good faith, and intended to sell a puppy, when the pregnancy didn't take or there weren't enough puppies, a simple phone call explaining the situation would have proved she did in fact intend to sell a pup. And if she has bred and sold litters since then, I think that would add to the argument that she never intended to sell a pup to the OP. Contract fraud is both a CIVIL and a CRIMINAL wrong, but I have read that the police don't want to get involved. However, if the OP decided to pursue a civil fraud case it could potentially 1) Make it worth it time/money wise as you could sue for more than the original $400 by adding punitive damages to the claim allowing you to file for up to the small claims maximum ($5,000 in New York) and 2) Possibly deter the breeder from continuing to do this to other people by hitting her where it hurts...in her wallet!! 

Just my suggestion, I could be way off, but I really think you could possibly have a chance at a civil fraud case, even without a lawyer. Maybe? Could be worth looking into :smirk:


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## Gwenhwyfair

Under contract law a verbal contract is binding, much harder to prove though, for sure.

When the breeder cashed MissBetsy's check it too can constitute a contract. By writing the purpose for the check in the memo or endorsement area in the back the check itself can represent the agreement, albeit one that often lacks important details. 

Since there was no guarantee as to when the pup was to be delivered it would be up to a judge to determine how long is a reasonable amount of time for the breeder to fulfill her part of the contract. 

I going to guess that one year would probably constitute a reasonable amount of time. 

If it were me and I had the ability I would take to her to small claims. If the judge ruled in my favor (which btw becomes a debt owed to me) and she didn't pay I would put her into a collection agency. I've used them before and they are persistent, very persistent and I did get some money that was owed me I never thought I would get. 

If she still didn't pay then she gets reported to the credit companies, Trans union, Experian and Equifax.

I would further check into putting a lien on her property.

This of course would be more an exercise of principle, but if I felt strongly about it as MissBetsy does, that's what I would do.





my boy diesel said:


> actually i did some more reading and found the breeder site and yes actually it does say pretty much exactly that
> 
> but keep in mind that is a website and nothing in the way of a contract was signed by the op at all
> unless you (or the law) considers the act of sending a deposit entering into a contract :shrug:


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## my boy diesel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Under contract law a verbal contract is binding, *much harder to prove though, for sure.*
> 
> When the breeder cashed MissBetsy's check it too can constitute a contract. By writing the purpose for the check in the memo or endorsement area in the back the check itself can represent the agreement, albeit one that often lacks important details.
> 
> Since there was no guarantee as to when the pup was to be delivered it would be up to a judge to determine how long is a reasonable amount of time for the breeder to fulfill her part of the contract.
> 
> I going to guess that one year would probably constitute a reasonable amount of time.
> 
> If it were me and I had the ability I would take to her to small claims. If the judge ruled in my favor (which btw becomes a debt owed to me) and she didn't pay I would put her into a collection agency. I've used them before and they are persistent, very persistent and I did get some money that was owed me I never thought I would get.
> 
> If she still didn't pay then she gets reported to the credit companies, Trans union, Experian and Equifax.
> 
> I would further check into putting a lien on her property.
> 
> This of course would be more an exercise of principle, bu*t if I felt strongly about it as MissBetsy does, that's what I would do.*


i think you are exactly right
however missbetsy seems content to let it all play out on the net rather than facing the breeder directly in person either at her home or in court :shrug:


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## Jax08

Considering she hasn't posted in 2 days and the theoretical arguments have been by others


> missbetsy seems content to let it all play out on the net rather than facing the breeder directly in person either at her home or in court


Is a pretty unfair statement.


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## holland

I live in NY and have gone to small claims court -I won and received my money back-so it is worth a try-you don't need a lawyer -if the person does not show up you automatically win-and there is a judgement against them-seems like it is worth a shot-anyway


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## JakodaCD OA

first of all missbetsy isn't on here much, maybe she has a 'life' that requires more attention than this post.

2nd, I wouldn't want to make an unplanned visit to this breeder either, for reasons that don't need to be aired here. 

3rd, she doesn't live 'next door' to the breeder to do so. 

4th, I will say it again, people are LUCKY if they receive their judgement in small claims court

and lastly,,who wants to hire a lawyer for 800 bucks an hour when your owed 400? 

So MBD, yes your statement is unfair, it's easy for one to sit behind a computer screen and spew that someone else is 'content to let it play out on the net'..


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## Gwenhwyfair

My parents have won cases in small claims and were paid.

I haven't seen any stats about how often people collect or not so I think we should be careful basing statements on anecdotal evidence.

One thing is for sure, law enforcement/criminal side of this has either flat out told MissBetsy "civil" case and/or push her case under the rug and drag it out. The writing is on the wall they aren't interested in helping Miss Betsy.

Therefore *if* she decides she wants to pursue this civil/small claims would be her best bet.

There are ways of collecting small claims debts after a judgement is entered. Some people aren't aware of that so there maybe times where people could have collected but didn't know how.


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## holland

If you win in small claims court-they do put a lien on the persons property-so if they at any point want to sell the property they pay-pretty sure that's why I got paid in a pretty timely manner to-and you definitely don't need an attorney


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## my boy diesel

um the 'net is bigger than this board :laugh:
and if you look there are plenty of complaints all over the net about this situation so that is what my comment is referring to

lodging dozens of internet complaints is not going to fix the situation though
not to mention this event has been dragging on for over a year now :shrug:


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## Gwenhwyfair

I wasn't sure how that worked under a judgement. When I worked with construction lending we found liens to be a powerful tool for payment as well.

Thanks for the information. 

From a macro point of view small claims must work, at least often enough, or people would quit using the system.



holland said:


> If you win in small claims court-they do put a lien on the persons property-so if they at any point want to sell the property they pay-pretty sure that's why I got paid in a pretty timely manner to-and you definitely don't need an attorney


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## kr16

If I remember correct in NY liens expire and have to be renewed. Also in a regular court in NY a good attorney can delay a case for years. Small claims is faster I think.


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