# HELP, I've made a tiny huge mistake



## oatmeal (Apr 11, 2017)

*I don't know what the best place is in which to post this, so feel free to move it*

Disclaimer: I'm an idiot, and I know that. I'm feeling a lot of shame and embarrassment at the moment, so don't be too harsh please.

Alright, buckle up if you can, this might take awhile. Our GSD Rexo came home with us last Monday. He is from Czech working lines, and he flunked out of bomb detection work. He just turned 2. 

The woman I bought him from told me he was perfect for my family. I have 3 boys, ages 2, 5, and 9. And we've never owned a pet of any sort. She said Rexo wasn't cut out for the working life and would be better suited for a pet home, and that due to our inexperience an older dog like him was smarter for us than the puppy we were initially seeking. She said his temperament was really lab-like. She sold him to us contingent on our agreeing to have him board-trained for 2 weeks prior to coming home with us. We did that, and like I said, picked him up from the training place last Monday.

He is great in a lot of ways. He doesn't jump up. I haven't heard him bark yet. When he starts to chew on something we tell him "No, off," and he stops pretty much immediately. He will sort of obey his place command (but a lot of times gets up a second or two later). He's okay at sitting. He's pretty good at heeling on walks. He's housebroken. He's somewhat tolerant of being petted. 

I would break down our issues with him into 2 categories: 1), behavior issues. 2) we got in over our heads with the responsibilities associated with dog ownership. We should have known better, we were warned, and we went ahead anyway. It was probably a really stupid decision.

So, behavior issues -- he is super *mouthy*. I didn't expect this from a 2 year old. I thought having an older dog would mean we had skipped that phase. We can hardly pet him before he starts mouthing all over us. Sometimes slowly and gently and sometimes kind of frantically. Sometimes it comes off a bit like snapping. I thought my younger two kids were exempt from his mouthing until yesterday when we got the toddler and mouthed his body and put his jaws around his head twice before i got to the leash and called him off. I don't really care about the intention, it's unsettling to see a giant beast put its jaws on your baby's HEAD. The mouthing is such a pain that my husband and I dread getting Rexo out of his crate. 

Other behavioral issues -- he is either *super into or super angry at other dogs*. It's the only time he strains at the leash, and I can't calm him down or get him to focus on me. On Thanksgiving I had him out front trying to get him to pee, and there were 2 women a few houses down standing in the street with their 3 tiny dogs. I asked him to sit and he did, but he was laser focused on those dogs. The next door neighbor said hi and I said hi and Rexo bolted. The leash flew out of my hands. (Again, disclaimer, I know this is on me. I totally should have had a vice grip on that leash.) He ran like lightning, made a pass at some bushes, then went full charge at those dogs. The women screamed and yelled help at the top of their lungs the whole time, and while I was running over there I saw, I kid you not, one of the dogs go flying through the air, spinning the whole time. It was like something out of a movie. It felt surreal and was awful. Now, I'm guessing his intentions were not bad or else the dogs would have been mauled, or at least injured. But obviously the whole thing was terrible, could have gotten dogs killed, people injured, my family sued...I know it was a serious failure on my part, and I was crushed by the whole incident. That was definitely a moment where I felt like, you know what, I'm not up to this.

Lastly on the behavioral note, I think my husband is his person (ironic because my husband, though the one who pushed the whole Getting A Dog thing, wanted a small to medium dog and I cajoled and persuaded him into getting a GSD and he said he really didn't want this responsibility to fall on his shoulders, and it almost totally has). He left yesterday for the first time since we got Rexo. He had the kids with him, so I was alone with Rexo, and he was really nervous or something. He kept going to the front door, then pacing the house, then back again, etc. I tried to distract him with some treats and chew toys but he really didn't want much to do with it. I gave him his place command and he went there but when I walked by him he snapped at me. It was a tense time. My husband is supposed to go out of town next week, and I don't feel entirely safe alone with Rexo. He *seems nervous or anxious* in general. And maybe that's totally normal, he's in a home environment for the first time, it's a huge transition, I get that. But I wasn't prepared for it to be like this.

On the second part, overwhelmed by the responsibilities -- again with the feelings of shame. Every stay at home mom friend I have who has a dog said do not get a dog. They were probably right...I feel overwhelmed by my responsibilities already. It's all I can do to do justice to the kids. I'm not sure how I can do justice to Rexo. My two year old wants to be held almost all the time, and I'm trying to figure out how when my husband goes back to work tomorrow I can take Rexo out for potty breaks without the two year old just sobbing inside the house. 

Anyway. I'm sorry for how long and negative this post is. My husband was breaking down this morning about the whole thing (two of our kids are sick at the moment too) and I'm just starting to feel a little desperate. We're going to feel like serious losers if we end up having to return the dog, but I'm not sure we're up to this. I think we were way optimistic (and again, stupid).


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## oatmeal (Apr 11, 2017)

Pic for reference of beauty:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

*while I was running over there I saw, I kid you not, one of the dogs go flying through the air, spinning the whole time.*

This is extremely troubling. I seriously think Rexo saw the small dogs as prey. "Laser focus" is typical of the way a predator looks at its prey before attacking. They also take the prey in their jaws and shake it to kill it. That would account for the small dog flying through the air, when he tried to do this and failed to get a firm enough grip on it.

I really think this dog has some serious issues - too much for a first time dog owner - and you should take him back. He's a strong dog, and if you lose control of him again in a situation like that, someone's beloved pet is going to be maimed or killed. It will only take a second's inattention on your part for something like this to happen!

He belonged to a police officer, and has been worked only by men, so of course, he is not used to women and children. I'd be interested to find out if his 2 week board and train did anything to get him accustomed to women and kids! He certainly should not be mouthing your kids, nor should he growl at you!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yikes. Mouthing/ nipping at age 2 is not okay. Putting your kids head in the dog's mouth NOT OKAY ( I know you know this, not trying to tell you that more like agreeing)

Two years old and chewing on stuff in the house? Was he kept in a kennel prior? Kind of sounds like it. 

Maybe way too much dog for you guys. I think I'd be seriously considering returning him, if I were you.

Did the board and train place work with you guys WITH the dog? You need serious intervention by a competent trainer, yesterday...or...the dog goes. That's my opinion


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That's the main reason I dislike board and train! It NEEDS TO INVOLVE THE OWNERS AND THEIR FAMILY!!

What did they DO to this dog during the two weeks, if he's growling at women, and mouthing the kids??


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Considering your lack of experience and the fact you have very young children in the home, I would definitely consider returning the dog. The lady you bought him from either did a very poor job assessing or else had to rehome a washout and went with the first likely option that came along. this does not sound like a good family dog. Maybe with a lot of work he could be and maybe never. Not all dogs do well in busy homes with young kids.

You are not losers for rehoming this dog. Honestly the woman that sold you this dog is the one to blame. Either she is no good at evaluating dogs or knowingly took advantage of you. The best thing for this dog is likely a new home with and experienced owner, the fact that you are not the right home for this dog is nothing to feel ashamed about. It will be worse for your family and the dog keep going down the path your are own. You and your family deserve a dog you can a enjoy and feel safe around.


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Just curious--was the woman you bought him from his breeder? If not, why was she rehoming him?
I'm not sure what made her think he was suitable for family life, especially with small children. Just because a dog flunks out of his designated profession, does not mean he's automatically suited for family life. 
It doesn't sound like he's a terrible dog, just a lot more dog than you have the time and inclination to deal with. With the place command, it's not optional to tell them to go to place and then let them pop up after a couple of seconds. You just do not allow it and even though he's been to board and train, you still have to uphold their training. 
I didn't see any mention of how much exercise and mind stimulation he gets per day. A lot of drivey dogs get really edgy if they don't have enough work of some kind to satisfy them. Could well account for the mouthiness.
I absolutely don't think you are an idiot, just someone who has too much dog for her situation. I think he could be a very nice dog for someone who can meet his needs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

First can you reach out to the person you got him from and send this dog back?
I have no idea who thought this dog was a good choice for a family with 3 young children. 
None of this story makes much sense, I cannot see a working dog being that mouthy, and certainly dog aggression would have been dealt with. I do not understand why we are hearing so many board and train tales that end with "he sort of listens".
This doesn't sound like a good situation for anyone, and while all of these issues can be worked on I think it sounds like this is not really the dog you wanted. 
I don't believe his intention is to hurt your children, but accidents happen.

You are not an idiot, and not a failure. You were smart enough to come here for help. So get this boy out of your home and let the good folks here help you find a dog more suitable for you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I would take him back before something or someone gets hurt.It will happen.You are definitely in over your head.There's no shame in admitting you made a mistake.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

What a gorgeous animal! Sorry to hear it's been so rough, but you really do have a serious decision to make. What you've described is a recipe for disaster. This dog has been used to strong, experienced leadership, and very active lifestyle. These dogs need a LOT of exercise, and something to challenge them mentally. If he's not getting both, he'll be...er, difficult to live with. Do you have a large, fenced yard?

Others will chime in I'm sure, but first and foremost you have to be able to meet the dog's minimal physical requirements. Secondly, as I mentioned, this particular dog has been used to strong, experienced handlers. Since you and your husband are not experienced GSD people, the only way I see this working out for you would be to hire a GSD experienced, balanced trainer to help you. They can teach you how to handle the dog effectively. But that takes a very solid commitment of both money and time, which it sounds like you may not have. So, for the safety of your children, and the good of the dog, I would strongly advise you to return the dog.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't like to say this ever, but I'd take him back if I were you. I think you'd only end up resenting the dog later, unless you want to really put a lot of money and work into hiring a good trainer that actually trains with you. But for a first time pet owner, this dog has put you in way over your head.

If you take him back and still want a dog, you should ask: why did your husband want a dog in the first place; why a small/medium sized one? And why did you want a GSD? What do you BOTH want out of a dog? Perhaps there's a smaller breed out there that will satisfy both of your goals. You guys have to do this kind of thing together and have an agreed upon game plan. You both have to be in this 100%. When you get the dog, you guys have to have agreed upon the breed, age, and what you want to do with it; then _stick with that plan_. Otherwise, you'll get what you have right now: one party who doesn't want to help, and the other party in over their head because they're alone in the endeavor.

I would also like to add that you shouldn't feel ashamed of being in this predicament. You've become aware of the problem very early on, and that's a great thing to do. Understanding your limits is important. Mistakes happen, and it's far better to see it now than years down the road when everyone hates the dog and doesn't want anything to do with it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with sending the dog back.

A dog that put his mouth on my infant's head, well, that dog would either be out of there or never allowed to interact with my child again, in any circumstance, until I was 100% sure it was safe. I wouldn't for a second play with that, if the dog decides to "test" a bite, the child could die. I think OP, you know this, but do be very careful! 

My GSD was the type of GSD who would have fit perfectly in your situation. She wasn't a lab personality, still GSD, but completely trustworthy with small children. No concerns whatsoever. So there are family type GSDs out there that could fit your situation. My dog would never have even considered putting her mouth on a child. 

I'd recommend getting a female dog over a male dog if you are interested in getting another dog in future. I find the gender differences to be far stronger in the shepherd breeds than, say, a lab. I love both, but if I had young kids, I'd get a female. 

Here's the thing, this dog needs to have been taught not to mouth people a long time ago, like at 8 to 10 weeks. He wasn't. 

He isn't dog friendly, and has unreliable OB. That's huge. Yes, he could kill a small dog- or get in a major fight with a big one. Neither are of which you can handle as a mother of three young kids.

I was going to write about the conditions under which I think you could keep this dog- training, management, crate or kennel, a reputable board and train and then consistent training afterward- but with young kids, and an inexperienced owner, just no. 

This dog is not a good fit for you and currently a fairly huge liability.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You aren't an idiot, you've been lied to. Wasn't cut out for the work, you're seeing the reasons why and it isn't because he has a labs 
temperament, and then just to add insult to injury, she conned you into that board and train. Don't let him in the same room with your kids and you be very careful to avoid any situation that puts you into a confrontation with him or has you needing to stop something. When your husband gets home, take him back immediately.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Growing up we adopted a dog -teddy I was probably in 5th grade with younger siblings - he was about a 1 year old. I remember my sister or brother in the floor playing and teddy mouthed his head it was weird he did it to me once not trying to hurt us but was weird what ever that was passed and he was a good family dog. We joked about maybe he thought our heads were soccer balls but even in play a strong dog can cause great damage to a two year old/ as I’m sure you know. I’m not disagreeing to rehome the dog I think the dog would be best in home more suitable where someone can keep him busy and has much time for him so he does not get himself into any kind of trouble.  It just does not sound like a good fit. Unless he gets the time, excersise and training he needs. You have to be honest with yourself.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

People don't usually marry the first person they kiss or date because it usually takes more than that to find the right fit for them. Just because that first kiss or first date or first dog isn't the right fit does not make anybody a failure. It just simply means that the dog is not the right fit for you. 

Do your family a favor. Return this dog to the seller or rehome him. Find a dog that enhances your lifestyle that you can enjoy, not one that creates a burden that you can't trust with your kids. Do the dog a favor and find him a home that will appreciate what he has to offer.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm agreeing with everyone else, this was set up to fail. He's probably never been exposed to family life and a two week board and train to adjust is wishful thinking. The person placing this dog was dangerously irresponsible. This dog may be a good fit somewhere else in an experienced home, not one with children.

We have a Czech male. He was raised from a pup with kids. Besides the puppy biting and a few bumps here and there he's never harmed them in any way. The puppy phase can be a pain for some, but providing you start with a solid pup they mould very well to life with kids.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> I would take him back before something or someone gets hurt.It will happen.You are definitely in over your head.There's no shame in admitting you made a mistake.



This^^^^

This is not on you. This is on the woman who placed him with you. That sounds like a LOT of dog for a young, inexperienced, family with multiple small children.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> I would take him back before something or someone gets hurt.It will happen.You are definitely in over your head.There's no shame in admitting you made a mistake.


Agree. You can't have that sort of dread and uncertainty in your home.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Nigel said:


> The puppy phase can be a pain for some, but providing you start with a solid pup they mould very well to life with kids.


Actually, with 3 young kids to take care of, a puppy would probably be too much work, especially if the husband goes out of town on a regular basis. An adult rescue that has been fostered in a family setting with children would be a much better option.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

OP- what happened to your research on ASL breeders and goldens? Why did you chose to go with this dog and breeder instead of an easy going golden? 

I am curious how you selected for this dog, after the thread this spring where you got some good advice on deciding whether a GSD was a good fit for you and your family.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> You aren't an idiot, you've been lied to. Wasn't cut out for the work, you're seeing the reasons why and it isn't because he has a labs
> temperament, and then just to add insult to injury, she conned you into that board and train. Don't let him in the same room with your kids and you be very careful to avoid any situation that puts you into a confrontation with him or has you needing to stop something. When your husband gets home, take him back immediately.


Steve, one of your talents I think is the ability to tell it like it is and concisely.

I think this might be the most important and accurate response to this post so far, although lots of people had great points. OP, re read what Steve said above.

I've adopted untrained, unknown GSDs from kill shelters that would have been a better fit for your family than the dog you have (not to suggest you go do that---just for perspective)


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually, with 3 young kids to take care of, a puppy would probably be too much work, especially if the husband goes out of town on a regular basis. An adult rescue that has been fostered in a family setting with children would be a much better option.


The rescue route is possible, however some rescues will not adopt out to families with children under a certain age. There are two well respected rescues we delt with and at the time their policy was no families with children under 12. This changed shortly after to 8. This was 5 years ago and why we went the puppy route. I'm sure rules will vary by location, but this was our experience.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am with RETURN him to the woman you got him from..I'm sure you paid something for him,,cut your losses and take it as a lesson learned..He is a stunning dog, but I would never have placed him with 1. someone who's never had a dog before and 2. small children ..(and I'm not bashing you at all)


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## oatmeal (Apr 11, 2017)

Thanks so much for all of the advice. This is exactly the kind of support I was seeking. I was unsure if it was, "No silly, that's how all dogs are," or what I got -- "sounds like you're in over your head." Which was a relief to hear from more experienced owners, because it certainly feels like we're in over our heads. 

I think my husband and I agree that Rexo is probably a fantastic dog, but perhaps for more advanced owners. And I don't know if he's great for a family...we both get the feeling that he tolerates our chaos, but doesn't like it (if that's even a fair thing to evaluate in a week). I'm kicking myself for not grilling the woman I got him from more on that count. 

On the subject of rescues -- exactly what Nigel said. I couldn't find a rescue that would place a dog with a house that had children under the age of 5 at the youngest, most were older cutoffs. 

And as far as ASL GSDs and Golden Retrievers...my 9 year old is the one who started this Get A Dog business, and convinced his dad, who convinced me. He was super into German Shepherds and won me over. I totally fell in love with the (romanticized?) idea of their beauty, intelligence, and loyalty. This despite reading (repeatedly) that maybe they aren't the ideal dog for a first-time owner. I read a lot of things slamming the ASLs, and the one breeder who I was at some point committed to getting a puppy from turned out to be pretty unresponsive and I didn't have a great feeling about the situation. 

Breed aside, this has been a painful lesson, and we will probably wait a few years before trying again. :frown2: Thank you all for chiming in here, it truly was helpful.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Anyway. I'm sorry for how long and negative this post is. My husband was breaking down this morning about the whole thing (two of our kids are sick at the moment too) and I'm just starting to feel a little desperate. We're going to feel like serious losers if we end up having to return the dog, but I'm not sure we're up to this. I think we were way optimistic (and again, stupid).


So your husband is home, I misread your post. Don't look down on yourselves over this. This dog is not what he was represented to be and there's no upside for you keeping him. Its not a question of being up to it. Someone posted a good comment once on something like this, I don't remember where, but it was along the lines of the people that can handle this kind of dog, don't want this kind of dog. They've pawned him off on you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, I am sure many of us have had mis-matches in the past. I know, I did, because I was new in owning dogs. My very first dog was not easy but it did work. When he died I thought that the first one on my doorstep would work as well but it was a high drive Border Collie. Little did I know then. They were painful lessons. Yours is too, I am sure, but no one will blame you. I honestly think admitting that you are overwhelmed is a sign of strength. I would blame the person who "pawned" him off to you. 
Will they take him back?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'd be prepared to make a stink about it if they don't! I think the seller knew all too well what the dog was like! 

Did you get him at a bargain price?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

With young kids I would go the puppy route. That is just what I feel safest especially with any large breed dog. Everyone has to be on board knowing the work involved. I opted for a King Charles cavalier when my kids were real young at the time. Great family dog with hectic schedules. 
Sad you were swayed away from the american showline because I have one and are incredible family dogs and so is my west german showline. My nephews range from babies to 7 year olds and my kids a little older and can’t be any happier. They seem to thrive and enjoy the chaos. They are both incredible with my kids, their friends and family. I hope you take a actual look at the american showline in the future instead of reading things on the internet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oatmeal said:


> He is from Czech working lines, and he flunked out of bomb detection work. He just turned 2.
> 
> The woman I bought him from told me he was perfect for my family. I have 3 boys, ages 2, 5, and 9. And we've never owned a pet of any sort. She said Rexo wasn't cut out for the working life and would be better suited for a pet home, and that due to our inexperience an older dog like him was smarter for us than the puppy we were initially seeking. She said his temperament was really lab-like. She sold him to us contingent on our agreeing to have him board-trained for 2 weeks prior to coming home with us. We did that, and like I said, picked him up from the training place last Monday.


Could you please PM me and let me know where you got him from? 

It doesn't sound like this woman had this dog prior to you buying him. Why else would she insist on a 2 week board and train? That tells me that she really knew nothing about this dog.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> I hope you take a actual look at the american showline in the future instead of reading things on the internet.



Yeah, this made me sad. You could drop any one of my ASL into a family situation, and be happy with the dog you got. As a matter of fact, I have someone who may be interested in taking Russ to use as a therapy dog in their psychiatric practice that is focused on children. ASL aren’t all neurotic messes, lol!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope you take a actual look at the american showline in the future instead of reading things on the internet.
> ...


Oh wow Russ sounds like he will find his niche! Happy for him. No they sure are not. For the right fit you have to go out there and see the dogs there are no shortcuts.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I hope this dog is placed in good hands. He sure has been shuffled around a lot and in a new home only a week.


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## grits (Nov 26, 2017)

Husband here!

So, to fill in:

1. Yeah, I'm at home atm and since he arrived.
2. He's been here a week tomorrow.
3. FWIW I was in agreement with the "plan". We were informed-ish but naive.
4. I've had dogs.*

* as a kid. It's been quite awhile and we were never good at training our puppers. Also, only one dog anything remotely like this one (a border collie).

Here's my newbie read on what's going on:

- He's seems like a "good dog".
- He's probably very stressed. Good chance many of you are right that this was kennel dog stuck into a young family dynamic here.
- I don't think he's been predatory toward other dogs or any of us in any way. My read of body language is excitement not aggression toward other dogs. Difficult to control, though, so scary/dangerous. And I could easily be 100% wrong and I know it.
- I think in his anxiety(?) has gotten worse in the few days we've had him and it's creating a more dangerous dynamic. Maybe that goes away over time? Maybe not?

Bottom line: I'm in agreement that we should return. The fit is too forced if there is one at all.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

oatmeal said:


> Thanks so much for all of the advice. This is exactly the kind of support I was seeking. I was unsure if it was, "No silly, that's how all dogs are," or what I got -- "sounds like you're in over your head." Which was a relief to hear from more experienced owners, because it certainly feels like we're in over our heads.
> 
> I think my husband and I agree that Rexo is probably a fantastic dog, but perhaps for more advanced owners. And I don't know if he's great for a family...we both get the feeling that he tolerates our chaos, but doesn't like it (if that's even a fair thing to evaluate in a week). I'm kicking myself for not grilling the woman I got him from more on that count.
> 
> ...


I don't think you made a mistake at all. I think you were lied to. I am not sure where you are located but I think there are a few breeders who could get you exactly what you want. In fact I know one who is scaling back and has some dogs that mat work well for you 
Whatever you decide best of luck to you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> He belonged to a police officer, and *has been worked only by men*, so of course, he is not used to women and children. I'd be interested to find out if his 2 week board and train did anything to get him accustomed to women and kids!


Huh? Where did the OP share this information? I must have missed it... The only thing I saw was that the OP purchased the dog from a woman. 

Didn't know that if a dog belonged to a police officer it was de facto owned by a man...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, I don't know that for sure, but he was being trained for bomb detection. Ergo, most of the people he dealt with on a daily basis were men.

Afraid I didn't say EXACTLY what I meant, and by the time I realized I could have worded it better, it was too late to edit.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

OP - I pretty much agree with everyone else. Get this dog out of your house. He is not a good fit for you or your family. 

I also think that re-thinking the breed choice might be a good idea. GSDs in general are a lot of dog. They need LOTS of mental stimulation, training, and physical exercise. 

Maybe look at newfoundlands? The size might intimidate at first, but they are one of the best family dogs around. INCREDIBLY sweet and good natured. Low energy (almost verging on lazy). Sturdy. GREAT with kids. True gentle giants. They're temperament and daily exercise/mental stimulation needs tend to really mesh well with typical american family lifestyles.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I was just talking with someone today about Newfoundlands. Great kid dog for sure.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> Okay, I don't know that for sure, but he was being trained for bomb detection. Ergo, most of the people he dealt with on a daily basis were men.
> 
> Afraid I didn't say EXACTLY what I meant, and by the time I realized I could have worded it better, it was too late to edit.


That is still a really weird assumption to make. Lots of female handlers and trainers... especially in major metro areas... and I don't see many small town departments having the need or budget for bomb dogs either. That is -assuming- this dog was even owned by a police officer at ALL. Could have been private security. Could have been a trainer/broker looking to put skills on the dog then resell. Either way. Doesn't really matter. Sounds like this dog was a return to the breeder situation after being washed. Considering that the breeder is a woman... I don't think this dog's behavior issues are a result of lack of exposure to people with XX chromosones

IME disrespect from a dog has a LOT more to do with the body language and the general attitude a person presents than it does with your genital arrangement. Plenty of strong hard dogs that have only been handled by men that a good female handler would have absolutely zero problems with. 

It's a moot point here, as I am pretty sure the OP is returning the dog, but women are perfectly capable of changing their demeanor to handle a dog. No need to send the dog off to training to "get used to women". What does that involve? A big strong man handling the dog while a bunch of women wander around and do some weird type of exposure training? Huh? 

Children? Sure. Training needs to happen for sure. But an adult woman having issues with the dog respecting them? Don't blame lack of training of "getting them used to women". Just become a better handler. IMHO


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oatmeal said:


> *I don't know what the best place is in which to post this, so feel free to move it*
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm an idiot, and I know that. I'm feeling a lot of shame and embarrassment at the moment, so don't be too harsh please.
> 
> ...



to be perfectly honest I have only read this one post so far .

I do not even know where to begin .

This dog is totally inappropriate for you.

I wonder about the "back story"

I am not being harsh with you . Not at all. I am angered by the person who sold you
THIS dog . They did the dog no favour. They put your family in harms way.
They were unburdened with a problem dog.

The dog is 2 years of age
There was plenty of time to evaluate the dog .
There would have been hundreds of training sessions, environments, situations where
the dog would have been tested for job apptitude .
Bomb dog even -- no room for error -- 

That dog could have been WASHED out of consideration a long long time ago .
If you are honest , professional , and critical , the dog may not ever have been a consideration .
It does not take two years to come to that realization.

I think this may be a bit of a story to make you feel like you have "better" - this is your lucky day ma'am-

I am shocked by the dog taking the childs head into his mouth -- this is serious

You have no reason to be ashamed or embarrassed . You have been taken advantage of. (my opinion)

I would get that dog back so fast -----

now before I say anything else I will go and read all the other posts.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Voodoo, I've owned one dog that reacted badly to kids and another that reacted badly to men and kids just simply due to lack of exposure (they were scared/cautious around them.) It's a problem that's easily fixed if the dog has good nerves. And the board and train **** well SHOULD have included the dog being handled by both women and children.

But yeah, you're right - growling at a woman more likely indicates lack of respect than what I experienced with my dogs.

As for female handlers, I guess things are a bit different here in Canada. I've yet to meet one, either in person, or posted on media. I know that mounted units in Canada (RCMP, Metro Toronto Police) were also very slow to accept women as mounted officers, even though they began accepting women as police officers several decades ago.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

If it's possible to send the dog back, that sounds like the ideal solution. It just wasn't a good match. He may be a better fit for someone with GSD-experience who does not have young kids at home. It sounds like you may be intimated by the dog, and that's no way to live, for you or him. Sometimes a dog can pick up on a handler's hesitancy or lack of experience and kind of take advantage of that. OP, I'm sorry your first GSD experience is an unhappy one. GSDs can be great family dogs. We have two boys under three, and two GSDs, but that's not for everyone. Have you considered collies, labs, goldens, beagles? My first dog at age 13 was a sheltie (she was over sized at about 35lbs, not from the best of breeders) but she was the easiest dog ever.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> Voodoo, I've owned one dog that reacted badly to kids and another that reacted badly to men and kids just simply due to lack of exposure (they were scared/cautious around them.) It's a problem that's easily fixed if the dog has good nerves.


Big difference between fear behaviors and disrespect. I've also had dog with "fear of men". Funnily enough when I had men change their body language/posture, soften their voices, etc the dogs did much much better



> And the board and train **** well SHOULD have included the dog being handled by both women and children.


How do you know the board and train was not owned and run by a woman? OP didn't provide information on that either way. I disagree that the B&T should have included children handling the dog. That to me almost verges on irresponsible parenting. NO WAY would I let my kids handle a dog I have only known for 2 weeks. Have the dog on a secure leash and do mild exposure training - sure.



> But yeah, you're right - growling at a woman more likely indicates lack of respect than what I experienced with my dogs.


Lack of respect was more what I was seeing in the post. A boisterous, under exercised, male WL, not yet bonded to the family. 




> As for female handlers, I guess things are a bit different here in Canada. I've yet to meet one, either in person, or posted on media. I know that mounted units in Canada (RCMP, Metro Toronto Police) were also very slow to accept women as mounted officers, even though they began accepting women as police officers several decades ago.


That is very sad. I've met quite a few female K9 handlers down here... and I'm in the US bible belt!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here's one scenario -- I know this from speaking with some of the LE trainers/certifiers and k9 handlers.

some times someone will have a handful of a dog , out of control , aggressive , super active .

in their mind that makes the dog "police dog type" and so they pick up the phone and they phone the local
unit and offer their dog -- 

the unit personnel then go out for a look see . May take the dog in for closer evaluation if the first meeting seemed
promising.

it's a bit of a game. Public relations sensitive. They do SOMETIMES get themselves a very nice dog .
Same as they may find a very nice dog for work at a shelter . (any breed - including a little springer spaniel
that ended up doing detection at the airport)

the dog that is returned , then, can have an attached back story on how he was picked up for xxxxxxx what ever what ever but missed out because of age, lack of handlers, even too much drive.

I have heard it all . 

This dog may very well be a good candidate for some young dedicated handler, male or female, who can focus on the dog , give the dog proper discipline (fix its little wagon) , use the drive positively - reward and mold and have a fun 
sport dog .

one question -- OP -- does the dog have a lot of ball / play drive ? 
did they say why it failed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sebrench said:


> If it's possible to send the dog back, that sounds like the ideal solution. It just wasn't a good match. He may be a better fit for someone with GSD-experience who does not have young kids at home. It sounds like you may be intimated by the dog, and that's no way to live, for you or him. Sometimes a dog can pick up on a handler's hesitancy or lack of experience and kind of take advantage of that. OP, I'm sorry your first GSD experience is an unhappy one. GSDs can be great family dogs. We have two boys under three, and two GSDs, but that's not for everyone. Have you considered collies, labs, goldens, beagles? My first dog at age 13 was a sheltie (she was over sized at about 35lbs, not from the best of breeders) but she was the easiest dog ever.


yeah , I know where you are coming from , but a dog with the destiny of bomb dog surely should have better focus , self regulation, handler connection , no issues like dog aggression which would limit the environments and situations that he can be worked in .


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## annabirdie (Jul 3, 2015)

The easiest thing is to take the dog back immediately. The longer you keep him the more difficult it will be, both while you have him and when you eventually have to hand him over to someone else. I don't think you will enjoy having this dog, and a dog should be a joy to his owners. I would keep your children away from the dog.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

You were lied to and shouldn’t feel guilty. 

In the future, you may want to even consider a different breed. Dogs like labs have soft mouths. Even as puppies GSDs are landsharks. Apparently they grow out of it, but they still need a ton of exercise and training. 

I’m sorry this happened to you and I’m sorry for Rexo. I hope he finds the right forever home.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

The person who convinced a family with young children and no dog experience (recently) or GSD experience specifically, to take this dog, was clearly not worried about the welfare of either the people or the dog. When a person, be they a breeder or broker or private party, acts this irresponsibly their name should be plastered all over social media so they cannot continue to prey on people! It's sad, and very aggravating, that there are legal concerns for this forum, and I'm sure other social media sites, which prevent warning others...stepping down from the soapbox now...


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I think you should rehome the dog ASAP before someone gets hurt. This is way too much dog for you and your family at this time. This is not a criticism on you. You have never had a dog much less a GSD. How could you know?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

When the boys are older maybe you should get a Pug. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pug


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Honestly, I hope you will give up the dog yesterday to ensure the safety of your family and take a break before you jump into another situation. Meet other breeds, read up on them. Take a good trainer with you to evaluate a potential shelter dog and leave your heart out of it. There are a lot shelters and so-called rescues (aka hoarders) who do not temperament test their dogs or physically evaluate them. Same goes for Craigslist dogs. No Christmas puppy for the kids, which is a whole another can of worms.
Be safe and I wish you well.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> When the boys are older maybe you should get a Pug. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pug


Ugh. No. Please, just no. Breeds with pushed-in faces have more physical problems than just about any other. They cannot cool themselves by panting in hot weather, and can easily die from heat stroke. The pushed-in faces causes dental problems, and serious breathing problems due to an overly long soft palate. The nostrils are stenosed (so narrowed as to be almost useless) contributing to the problems, and even the trachea is narrowed, and prone to collapse. These dogs spend their entire lives struggling to breathe.

The large, protruding eyes are easily injured, and can pop out of their sockets.

Due to their anatomy, some of these dogs have great difficulty swimming, and need to wear life jackets at all times when around water or swimming pools.

The highly desirable double-curled tail causes congenital spinal problems (hemivertebrae), which are extremely painful, and may result in paralysis and the dog having to be humanely euthanized.
https://www.ufaw.org.uk/dogs/pug-hemivertebrae

I have seen these dogs bred to such an extreme that they have almost NO muzzle.

The rate of hip dysplasia in this breed is extremely high: about 63.8%, according to the Wikipedia article Nurse Bishop linked to above. 

They are one of the poster children for the terrible things humans have done to man's best friend by breeding for harmful extremes. :crying:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe the pug comment was a joke? 

I'd recommend no dog for the moment. Cats can make great pets and are easy. We chose our cat Colleen because she was the only one in the kitten cage at the shelter who crawled out and came right to us. She stayed very people-focused her whole life, she was tiny and would perch on a shoulder and just hang out as we walked around. Cool cat. We trained her to do tricks for treats. Cats are fun and friendly, generally good with kids, and a whole lot easier than dogs.

Chickens can also make nice starter pets- you'd be surprised at how much personality a chicken can have! My sister's family are all allergic to fur and have a pet chicken who the girls adore. The chicken lives outside, but hangs out with the family during the day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is inhumane breeding -- total disregard for a normal functional body --- one pug at the "rescue" had nostrils behind the eye socket (fed liquified food from a turkey baster)

nothing like having the kids be with the dog and an eye pops out.

THIS has got to stop.

I happen to LOVE pugs -- The OLD type . They are such sturdy little characters.

https://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.ca/2010/12/pugs-lets-face-it.html


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

dogfaeries said:


> Yeah, this made me sad. You could drop any one of my ASL into a family situation, and be happy with the dog you got. As a matter of fact, I have someone who may be interested in taking Russ to use as a therapy dog in their psychiatric practice that is focused on children. ASL aren’t all neurotic messes, lol!


I got this far. OP, first off, I am so, so sorry for the situation you are finding yourself in. I agree with the others that you were likely lied to. To piggyback on dogfaeries, I have an ASL/WGSL who would do very well in a family situation. She's going through a slight ornery patch this week, but normally she's good in the house and can roll with whatever we have going on. I don't have kids, but I've wondered sometimes if a dog that sweet with her pack was wasted on a pair of DINKs rather than as someone's childhood BFF.

That being said, I honestly don't know if a GSD is the best dog for your family; you and your husband know that best. But it's okay if it isn't. Not every family needs a GSD and there are many other types of dogs out there who have a lot to offer and who are a great fit for a young family. You and your husband and kids should ENJOY your dog. That's the kind of dog you want. Having a dog should be fun, not a constant source of worry or fear.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Ugh. No. Please, just no. Breeds with pushed-in faces have more physical problems than just about any other. They cannot cool themselves by panting in hot weather, and can easily die from heat stroke. The pushed-in faces causes dental problems, and serious breathing problems due to an overly long soft palate. The nostrils are stenosed (so narrowed as to be almost useless) contributing to the problems, and even the trachea is narrowed, and prone to collapse. These dogs spend their entire lives struggling to breathe.
> 
> The large, protruding eyes are easily injured, and can pop out of their sockets.
> 
> ...


I think it's more helpful in cases like this to stay away from bashing other breeds. There are plenty of dogs I don't care for, but the point of this thread is that the OP has a lot of dog in her living room, and she's feeling overwhelmed.

I agree with everyone saying take a breather and go back to the drawing board, but eventually they may want to get a dog, and I think they should in the future if they want one. This is a GSD forum and many of us here would prefer never to own another kind of dog, but we're not the OP. I actually think the pug suggestion was a great one. They're funny, friendly little clowns who as far as I've seen have always done great with kids under proper training (of both kids and pug) and under supervision. They couldn't be more different from a GSD but that doesn't mean they're bad dogs.

Plus, we're "in" a breed that people bash up and down all over the internet for bad breeding practices and ruination. I don't really know if we can tell people to stay away from other breeds for those reasons without looking rather foolish.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

No matter which breed you prefer, it's good to look at health and breeding practices, before deciding on a breeder. We have a Pug in our neighborhood who is well trained, well bred and is doing well in agility without breathing problems. I really liked him when I met him and his owner.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> No matter which breed you prefer, it's good to look at health and breeding practices, before deciding on a breeder.


All of that.

Meeting some of the specific dogs (regardless of breed) in person will give you so much insight. 

I've met dogs I would never, ever, want in my house. Beautiful? Sure. But not under my roof.

I've met others that I would love to steal, stuff into my car, and drive away with.

And Muskeg made an excellent point. Don't discount other types of companion, furry or feathered.... I was a lucky kid with tolerant parents who let me grow up with some different animals in my life.

There are many kinds of fantastic small companion animals, truly.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> All of that.
> 
> And Muskeg made an excellent point. Don't discount other types of companion, furry or feathered.... I was a lucky kid with tolerant parents who let me grow up with some different animals in my life.
> 
> There are many kinds of fantastic small companion animals, truly.


A trio of well-bred pet rats is great for kids. They are the closest to a dog in a rodent, love to be with people and are hilarious. Same as in dogs, go to someone who knows what they are doing to produce healthy and social ratties (better than pet shops). Guinea pigs are generally flighty and rabbits, aka bunnies don't care about being hugged or carried by kids.

By the way, curious about the OP's decision by now.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, take a deep breath. Of course you are overwhelmed. Who wouldn't be? This is not your fault. Return the dog. He is a bad fit for your family. Not your fault and not his. Hopefully, he will find placement with a more suitable home. 

Wait until your kids are a little older and things are more manageable. Don't take a GSD off the table forever. Take it off for now. There are rescues and even shelters that are very good at evaluating their dogs. They want you AND the dog to be successful. They will do their best to match you with the right dog. The 'right' dog makes all the difference in the world. At the end of the day, breed is not so important, as the family 'pet' dog. I currently have two mixed breed shelter dogs - a GSD mix and a hound mix. They are great. If purebred is important to you, rescues and shelters have lots of those too.

Just make sure you have a trusted, knowledgeable dog person to guide you.

Wishing you all the best!


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## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

German Shepherd pups are great, in that you can train them into awesome family pets, while i love all dogs i'd definitely recommend sending this dog back. A dog putting it's teeth on my baby's head wouldn't have a home with me very long, I can promise that. This issue also doesn't make or break your ability to handle a german shepherd, so please don't let this experience sour you on the breed as a whole. they truly are much more loving in my experience than what this dog has shown himself. when you're ready to try again, if a german shepherd is the breed you truly love then by all means try again with one! I love most all breeds, my reason for always having at least one GSD is because of my autistic son. She learned when she was young to block him from going outside on his own, and to "hold" his shirt back if he didnt pay attention. he's moderate/severe autistic. She is his comfort and his protector, though the one animal he loves and has the strongest bond with isnt a dog at all.

However many times people make generalizations about a breed as a whole which is not safe, or accurate. An example being all the people that say labs are never bad or aggressive. I've seen many "vicious" labs. One belonged to my mother-this dog was young when she got her and my mother doesn't hurt dogs. This dog grew up as a dog that would slink around and attack visiting people. Some dogs, individually, are too much for some people, and not because of breed but because of that particular dog


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

*Plus, we're "in" a breed that people bash up and down all over the internet for bad breeding practices and ruination. I don't really know if we can tell people to stay away from other breeds for those reasons without looking rather foolish*

Watery tart, that's true, but I don't see our breed having a fraction of the problems the pugs do. Certainly, the hip dysplasia incidence is nowhere NEAR 63%! That's just RIDICULOUS!

Let's just say, whatever breed you get, DO YOUR HOMEWORK first. Many people fall for the pug's adorable face, and are immediately smitten, without having a clue about the cost behind that cute pushed-in nose and curled tail!

My post was an effort to educate people, rather than bash the breed. Many of the problems I listed can cost owners thousands of dollars in addition to untold heartbreak.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> *Plus, we're "in" a breed that people bash up and down all over the internet for bad breeding practices and ruination. I don't really know if we can tell people to stay away from other breeds for those reasons without looking rather foolish*
> 
> Gypsy ghost, that's true, but I don't see our breed having a fraction of the problems the pugs do. Certainly, the hip dysplasia incidence is nowhere NEAR 63%! That's just RIDICULOUS!
> 
> ...


Sunsilver, I have not commented on this thread before now. You have me confused with someone else, as that is not a quote from me.

I do agree with the need to do proper research, though. People looking for a dog should see as many as they can, of many different breeds if not one hundred percent set on a GSD.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry, Gypsy, I corrected my post. Don't know why I thought it was you! :blush: Senior's moment, maybe? 

Agree with everything you said!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we certainly are 
"Plus, we're "in" a breed that people bash up and down all over the internet for bad breeding practices and ruination. I don't really know if we can tell people to stay away from other breeds for those reasons without looking rather foolish."

I think with good reason. 
Bad breeding practices are a big part of the problem.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

German shepherds are fine dogs for families. Even new dog owners. Even families with small kids. _This _dog was misrepresented to the OP, downloaded as a wash for service, but still a fine pet. That does NOT mean the people who tried him out are bad candidates for a GSD. 

The breed as it was intended, from the beginning, are stable dogs who can guard you land, herd you sheep, and play with your children. Who can be trusted not to harm the family farms chickens and sheep, and other critters, but who will rain bloody fire on a fox or marauding dog coming near the farm's critters or people. 

These dogs are gentle enough to mother a hairless, baby mouse. They DO have soft mouthes. Little children can offer them high value treats and come away without a scratch. Without being connected, they can precede their people, adults and children, across streets and down roads to the local park. With a word will come to heel rather than go after the advancing chattering squirrel, and will lie quietly in the park by her owner while the kids play among other strangers and dogs -- _that_ is a German Shepherd. 

And why would _that _be a bad choice for this family? Because someone chose to download a nervy animal on them? Do you think their are not nervy border collies, dobermans, lackland terriers??? God forbid, get one of those buggers. It's folks could not manage him with a citronella collar, a prong collar AND an e-collar. The only dog that ever managed to bite one of mine during a class. 

Or how about the dog my sister's in-laws have that runs around under the table and bites people. Some form of terrier. No, not a warg. Maybe an airdale mix. Rotten dog. Ran up on the porch trying to attack my mom's Cujo, and my frail old mother told Cujo to stay, and he did, and did not engage in the rotten dog. 

Quinnie went to her first parade yesterday. No, she was not impressed with the noise the big vehicles were making and wasn't all that impressed with the marching band, but she did not blink an eye when we were right up close and personal with the horses my nieces were riding and she went through milling crowds of people that I could barely squeeze through. And we live in the quiet countryside and don't see people often_. _And there were dogs of all shapes and sizes as well. Why would such a dog be not ok with a family with children? 

Children who do not live with me, who come a few times a year to my place, can, on their own, enter my kennels and feed and care for them. Why would the dogs not be good for a family like this one? 

I don't give a darn what lines they are. A good dog is a good dog. Ok, some might be more bitey as a puppy. But most of us have been able to stop a landshark from eating the small ones. Until the pup grows out of it. And I know a lot of people these days do the re-direct thing, and I think that maybe, because they want a dog that will do bite sports and stuff, they put up with more mouthiness than others of us, who correct it and not allow it. The dogs are fine either way. They can learn from 8 weeks on up that the teeth are not allowed to come down on humans. 

Whatever. I guess I am disappointed at the general consensus that seems to be given to the OP: You were taken, lied to, the dog's a problem dog, not good temperament; you should not get another GSD, they aren't the right dog for you in your situation. No problem at all with the first half of the statement. But if people are breeding GSDs that make the last half of the statement true, then the problem is not the people but the dogs. 

German shepherds, bond tightly with their people, all of family, some tighter than others. 
German shepherds are smart and great with children, even babies. 
German Shepherds are loyal.
German Shepherds are easy to train and manage. 

Some GSD fit better with some people and others fit better with other types of people. Some are more athletic and have more energy, requiring more exercise. Others have a stronger personality and need a leader who might give them a solid correction. Others are handler sensitive and can learn anything you care to teach them with little to no corrections at all. 

The poorly bred specimens that do not belong in families, generally do not belong there, not so much for what they may do to the owner's children, but to the friends of the owner's children, who run and wrestle and otherwise might amp up a nervous dog to the point of being a danger. Yes, there ARE poorly bred specimens, mostly fearful dogs who act aggressively when pressed. But instead of telling people what to look out for, we are telling someone not to get the absolute best dog on the planet. 

Maybe GSDs are not for just anybody. But if they are suited to another breed, there are GSDs out there that would be perfectly fine in their household. And we want them to buy rats? Rats? What kid can walk a rat down the street? There is nothing like a dog. And no dog like a good German Shepherd Dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> yeah , I know where you are coming from , but a dog with the destiny of bomb dog surely should have better focus , self regulation, handler connection , no issues like dog aggression which would limit the environments and situations that he can be worked in .


It could very well be, that the kinda crap you mentioned is among the things that washed the dog out??? And the lack of uh ... "Bomb-ability" just made it obvious??? 

Who knows perhaps he scored well on everything else save for the "Bomb Detection" thing??? Perhaps with a "better" trainer he'd still be in the program??? It seems like the OP just got surrounded by "Bad Choices" by others??? 

At the minimum, this dog should have most likely gone to a kid free home?? Since it would appear that those should have know about potential issues?? Seem to not have a clue??? So the call went out LE washout ... to "Family Pet" any dog can do that job, well ... "Apparently such is not the case???" 

It seems like this is a pretty awesome dog. But the original, caretakers, just did not want to put forth the effort required to find him a more suitable home??? 

The OP did nothing wrong here, aside from, "trusting" the party involved to make "Good Choices" for both the "Dog" and the "Family involved." 

Most likely the "dog's owners" were simply in a rush to cut their losses, and be rid of the dog??? I don't know, but that is how this reads to me.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Selzer, I can't speak for other posters, but I only suggested that maybe another breed could be a good option because I wanted to offer the OP an out.

Another GSD could be great. But I could also see them deciding they weren't up for that. That's okay. It's okay either way. It's their choice. It doesn't mean they failed or that GSDs are bad dogs. It means maybe they take a deep breath and a step back and reevaluate, and whatever ends up working for them is great.

I totally agree that this is the best breed on the planet. For me. For you. For anyone else who feels it to be so. But my goodness, there are hundreds of dog breeds out there, and it's not a bad thing for one of them to work out for someone. There is someone else out there who feels exactly the same way about borzois or bloodhounds or labs or Samoyeds or even pugs - same way we feel about GSDs. That's not disappointing. That's great for the aficionados of those breeds and for the families who love them.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> And we want them to buy rats? Rats? What kid can walk a rat down the street?


I have bred and raised more litters of rats than most breeders on this board have dogs... 

They are just as intelligent as dogs. In some ways their intelligence even surpasses dogs (They are capable of metacognition)

Rats from breeders who socialize at a young age make FANTASTIC PETS. They bond deeply with their people, they love affection - both giving and receiving, they can learn many tricks, they are clean, they can be litter trained. 






For a family that is overwhelmed by dog ownership but wants a fun interactive pet - they are a great suggestion.


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## camperbc (Sep 19, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I have bred and raised more litters of rats than most breeders on this board have dogs... They are just as intelligent as dogs. In some ways their intelligence even surpasses dogs (They are capable of metacognition) Rats from breeders who socialize at a young age make FANTASTIC PETS. They bond deeply with their people, they love affection - both giving and receiving, they can learn many tricks, they are clean, they can be litter trained.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7ehkc01Ec4
> For a family that is overwhelmed by dog ownership but wants a fun interactive pet - they are a great suggestion.


Oh. My. Gosh. I'm almost at a total loss for words! Who knew that a _rat_ was capable of doing tricks, let alone almost every trick imagineable! I watched this video with my jaw hitting the floor. This makes me want to run out and buy a rat!!

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> It could very well be, that the kinda crap you mentioned is among the things that washed the dog out??? And the lack of uh ... "Bomb-ability" just made it obvious???
> 
> Who knows perhaps he scored well on everything else save for the "Bomb Detection" thing??? Perhaps with a "better" trainer he'd still be in the program??? It seems like the OP just got surrounded by "Bad Choices" by others???
> 
> ...


A dog selected to do explosives detection would need to have exceptional focus. It could not be bothered by other dogs, distractions get folks killed in that line of work. And by 2 years it would have needed stellar obedience. It never would have made it this far. I know working dogs that are bonkers in their crates but they settle when the door opens and it just doesn't compute that a wash out at 2 years old "sits ok".
The OP did nothing wrong, at all. I just don't believe the back story they were fed.
A board and train to rehab a working dog would be longer and would involve acclimating to a household setting and family life. Not all dogs need this, some need it desperately. This dog sounds more like an unschooled hooligan then a washout. With an experienced handler he will likely turn out ok. But if he decides to challenge the regime, better to not have 3 young kids in the way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I clicked on it but my computer couldn't manage it. Not sure if I could really. I HATE rats. Even cute fancy rats. They try to burn my house down. I have the river running behind my house, and without a cat, and GSDs are worthless for rodent control, they come in and chew right through the walls. When I had a gas stove, they made a nest up right on the pilot light, trying to burn me out. They chewed my water pipe in the crawl space so that it was shooting water up at my floor ruining the floor I replaced less than a dozen years ago. Last week, I came in that the wiring was sparking into my wall. 

I know they can be litter trained because they, unlike mice, tend to potty in one place, where mice leave messages wherever they get to. Thank God the mice are not around right now. Probably because the rats won't let them, or they are carrying off the poison, and the mice are eating it. 

I can only put up with my sister's guinea pig because it doesn't have that gruesome tail. No thanks. I am at war with rats. They nauseate me. They chew up your stuff, and leave cashes of rat poison and dog food wherever. My dog food I have to leave in the car until I bring in three bags which I have plastic bins for. So I currently have 10 bags of dog food in my tiny car. Because I can't bring them in, or the nasty monsters will chew them open. Ew. I got the super-rat-killer poison now, but it isn't as safe for dogs as the other stuff.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

It sounds like a cat might not be a bad idea.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Selzer, I can't speak for other posters, but I only suggested that maybe another breed could be a good option because I wanted to offer the OP an out.
> 
> Another GSD could be great. But I could also see them deciding they weren't up for that. That's okay. It's okay either way. It's their choice. It doesn't mean they failed or that GSDs are bad dogs. It means maybe they take a deep breath and a step back and reevaluate, and whatever ends up working for them is great.
> 
> I totally agree that this is the best breed on the planet. For me. For you. For anyone else who feels it to be so. But my goodness, there are hundreds of dog breeds out there, and it's not a bad thing for one of them to work out for someone. There is someone else out there who feels exactly the same way about borzois or bloodhounds or labs or Samoyeds or even pugs - same way we feel about GSDs. That's not disappointing. That's great for the aficionados of those breeds and for the families who love them.


I am sure there are fanciers of other breeds who think their breed is just as awesome as GSDs, the ones that have never owned a good GSD. But we are a GSD site. If I went to a Rottweiler site and was given the suggestion that I get a Labrador, I would be offended. Maybe I have a Hagrid complex and feel disappointed that mandibles were wasted on them. 

I could stomach one or two persons suggesting a Golden or an English Setter, but when the general consensus is that they have no business owning this type of dog seeing how they have kids, well, a little loyalty folks. Isn't that one of the qualities of our dogs. Doesn't that suggest we like to see that in people? 

It is not the breed. Then maybe we should help the people out by telling them how to go about finding the right GSD for them? Maybe they are all out with the breed, especially when the experts here are telling them to get their kids some rats.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> It sounds like a cat might not be a bad idea.


Yeah, especially if they let those rats get lost in the house. 

VoodooLamb, did you ask your buyers if the rats were going to cat-free homes?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> I clicked on it but my computer couldn't manage it. Not sure if I could really. I HATE rats. Even cute fancy rats. They try to burn my house down. I have the river running behind my house, and without a cat, and GSDs are worthless for rodent control, they come in and chew right through the walls. When I had a gas stove, they made a nest up right on the pilot light, trying to burn me out. They chewed my water pipe in the crawl space so that it was shooting water up at my floor ruining the floor I replaced less than a dozen years ago. Last week, I came in that the wiring was sparking into my wall.
> 
> I know they can be litter trained because they, unlike mice, tend to potty in one place, where mice leave messages wherever they get to. Thank God the mice are not around right now. Probably because the rats won't let them, or they are carrying off the poison, and the mice are eating it.
> 
> I can only put up with my sister's guinea pig because it doesn't have that gruesome tail. No thanks. I am at war with rats. They nauseate me. They chew up your stuff, and leave cashes of rat poison and dog food wherever. My dog food I have to leave in the car until I bring in three bags which I have plastic bins for. So I currently have 10 bags of dog food in my tiny car. Because I can't bring them in, or the nasty monsters will chew them open. Ew. I got the super-rat-killer poison now, but it isn't as safe for dogs as the other stuff.


Well bred pet rats are as far away from wild rats as a german shepherd is to a coyote. Completely different animals. 

But regardless, an infestation like you have is dangerous for sure!!! 

You should contact an exterminator that offers ContraPest stations. It's basically rat birth control. You can't move the river and with outdoor dogs that is always going to be a constant source of food. They will never go away. With constant heavy poison use you risk getting your dogs and other wildlife sick or killed. Then you will have rebound population spurts from the surviving rats and they will all be bait savvy and the poison won't work at all. Rats have an amazing ability to communicate with other rats about what is good to eat and not. Plus they can't vomit so they are always cautious when trying new foods. Poison resistance builds quickly in rat populations. Since the ContraPest doesn't make rats sick they never develop an aversion to it so it is the best choice for long term rat control - which is what you sound like you need.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> Yeah, especially if they let those rats get lost in the house.
> 
> VoodooLamb, did you ask your buyers if the rats were going to cat-free homes?


Rats lost in the house? LOL They might go off to explore for a bit... but then they come trying to find you for cuddles and treats. I have a few that will follow me around and refuse to go explore at all. Besides. They know their names and come when called. If that were to fail... they all go racing back to their cage for dinner time. 

As for domestic rats and cats...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ok, the kitty rat pictures are really cute.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> ok, the kitty rat pictures are really cute.


Kitty rat pictures have nothing on ratties with their teddy bears though...


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Oh my goodness ... cute pics. I kind of want a rat now!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My mother used to have a rat named Julie, lol, and she would come when you called her. She was pretty adorable.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Well bred pet rats are as far away from wild rats as a german shepherd is to a coyote. Completely different animals.
> 
> But regardless, an infestation like you have is dangerous for sure!!!
> 
> You should contact an exterminator that offers ContraPest stations. It's basically rat birth control. You can't move the river and with outdoor dogs that is always going to be a constant source of food. They will never go away. With constant heavy poison use you risk getting your dogs and other wildlife sick or killed. Then you will have rebound population spurts from the surviving rats and they will all be bait savvy and the poison won't work at all. Rats have an amazing ability to communicate with other rats about what is good to eat and not. Plus they can't vomit so they are always cautious when trying new foods. Poison resistance builds quickly in rat populations. Since the ContraPest doesn't make rats sick they never develop an aversion to it so it is the best choice for long term rat control - which is what you sound like you need.


I was a street kid in a port city. I'm sorry but I hate rats. I remember one sitting by me while I was laying down hissing/growling at me. These aren't cute rats, they are nasty, slimy rats the size of small dogs. I can't even be in the same room with one. They make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I was a street kid in a port city. I'm sorry but I hate rats. I remember one sitting by me while I was laying down hissing/growling at me. These aren't cute rats, they are nasty, slimy rats the size of small dogs. I can't even be in the same room with one. They make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.


There is nothing wrong with not liking rats. Just as long as you do not make fun of or offend the people that do, or spread misinformation about pet rats from a place of prejudice. 

It's the same as people who say all German Shepherds are vicious, aggressive, man eaters that have bad hips and deformed backs...


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Yeah don't offend the rats! :tongue:
Wonder if the OP has the dog still?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yeah don't offend the rats! :tongue:
> Wonder if the OP has the dog still?


I'm sure the rats don't care, but the point is that there are many people who love them and get just as much joy and companionship from a rat that you do your dog. 

No reason to go poop on other people's pet choices, especially when you are talking about a species that has been kept as pets longer than the GSD has been in existence, just because it is not your cup of tea.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I kept a rat that was meant to be snake food (not my snake). He was pretty friendly, but his rat buddy I got for him was not. Not long after the nice one had passed my visiting nephew left the latch on the ferret cage off and sometime thereafter mean rat was no more.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I clicker trained my rats to come when called. During the initial intro of the clicker, one smartie grabbed the clicker and took it to her nest as her personal treat dispenser. Every day I gave them free time in the house. All openings under cupboards sealed, doors to bathrooms closed etc. Sometimes they were in the basement when I called and they came running up the stairs, sat on their hind legs to be picked up for a treat. Another one took some treats and disappeared into the couch to make a secret stash. They have brought just as much joy as dogs. Only now, Deja is too prey driven for me to have rats. They are adorable, sweet little mess makers. They are very intelligent. But they live a very short life: mine never got older than 3 years.
I have had many people who hated rats, meet mine and one of these friends got her own pet rats that same week. You can not judge pet rats if you have never interacted with one.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This thread has taken on a life of its own...the OP said long ago they had decided to take the dog back!

And rats the size of small dogs is both cool and scary at the same time. LOL. As a youngster I had several pet rats, but one female sticks in my memory because she was such a sweetheart. And she's come running from wherever ahe was when called, tail held straight up in the air! So cute...better recall than many dogs I've met!

I also used to go fishing under a set of grain loading docks on the side of a large river...so I've met my share of the other rats, those with a mean growl and menacing presence, to know that it's not an exaggeration!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well we have Pugs and Rats and get another breed as options??? And I being a Boxer guy but of course, I am Pro Pug, just saying. I know nothing about Rat's as pets but at least they are not as creepy as "Spiders,"... uh oh, another constituency offended??? 

But back on point, hopefully the OP is pretty clear on the fact that this situation is not really there fault??? A whole bunch of folks that should have known better set the current situation up. Keeping there family safe and contacting a local GSD rescue is also a viable option. Perhaps the OP's mission with this particular GSD was to get him out of these people's hands all together, just a thought.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well we have Pugs and Rats and get another breed as options??? And I being a Boxer guy but of course, I am Pro Pug, just saying. I know nothing about Rat's as pets but at least they are not as creepy as "Spiders,"... uh oh, another constituency offended???


One of my tarantulas got out of her tank and I found her in the hall way. In the middle of the night. While heading for a bathroom break. I've had the little fuzzbutt for nearly 20 years now and she made me yelp like a little girl. :grin2:

Then there was the time I accidentally left the lid off of the deli cup I had an egg sac in... About a hundred electric blue spiderlings were crawling all over the walls and ceiling. That was fun. 

I don't mind anyone calling any of my pets "creepy". Just don't go slinging around false "facts" about them or saying they make horrible pets when you haven't actually, ya know, had any as pets and we are cool.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> One of my tarantulas got out of her tank and I found her in the hall way. In the middle of the night. While heading for a bathroom break. I've had the little fuzzbutt for nearly 20 years now and she made me yelp like a little girl. :grin2:
> 
> Then there was the time I accidentally left the lid off of the deli cup I had an egg sac in... About a hundred electric blue spiderlings were crawling all over the walls and ceiling. That was fun.
> 
> I don't mind anyone calling any of my pets "creepy". Just don't go slinging around false "facts" about them or saying they make horrible pets when you haven't actually, ya know, had any as pets and we are cool.


I LOVE spiders! I even have one inside my kitchen window that I go out of my way to feed regularly! But still, @voodoolamb, to say we're not a little weird in that way is a misnomer. Weird and proud of it is how I describe it > oh, and just for the record, spiders are very hard to train....IME

Probably not so good with little kids, generally, either...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Those are some cute rats - never thought I would say that- not like the ones In lady in the tramp but more like the mice in Cinderella. The rat with the teddy bear really is the cutest. I think it’s healthy for kids to grow up with all kinds of animals. The op said they want to wait awhile Before they got another dog so many understood that as being to overwhelmed at the moment to handle responsibility of a very active dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> One of my tarantulas got out of her tank and I found her in the hall way. In the middle of the night. While heading for a bathroom break. I've had the little fuzzbutt for nearly 20 years now and she made me yelp like a little girl. :grin2:
> 
> Then there was the time I accidentally left the lid off of the deli cup I had an egg sac in... About a hundred electric blue spiderlings were crawling all over the walls and ceiling. That was fun.
> 
> I don't mind anyone calling any of my pets "creepy". Just don't go slinging around false "facts" about them or saying they make horrible pets when you haven't actually, ya know, had any as pets and we are cool.


LOL, well I figured there would be someone! 

But 20 years for a tarantula, uh wow!! Ironically enough those, seem to be the least creepy of the spiders for some reason?? Not that I would chose to be around one or have one creeping about near me but as spiders go those guys are kinda cool. We use to have tarantulas marches, around (they marched thru Dayton) by the thousands a few years ago but it has not happened in nearly a decade now??? I never saw them but they went through people's yards up the road from me, years ago. 


https://www.desertusa.com/dusablog/tarantulas-on-the-march.html

But the really creepy spiders, would be Brown Recluses and Black Windows and most likely any spider from Australia, not only creepy one's there, but a lot of them can kill you! :surprise: 

I have no idea what a electric blue spider is and I'll not look them up. 

But yours even spooked you ... when it showed up unexpectedly?? That's the true creep factor as it were, spiders don't tend to make a lot of noise.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am sure there are fanciers of other breeds who think their breed is just as awesome as GSDs, the ones that have never owned a good GSD. But we are a GSD site. If I went to a Rottweiler site and was given the suggestion that I get a Labrador, I would be offended. Maybe I have a Hagrid complex and feel disappointed that mandibles were wasted on them.
> 
> I could stomach one or two persons suggesting a Golden or an English Setter, but when the general consensus is that they have no business owning this type of dog seeing how they have kids, well, a little loyalty folks. Isn't that one of the qualities of our dogs. Doesn't that suggest we like to see that in people?
> 
> It is not the breed. Then maybe we should help the people out by telling them how to go about finding the right GSD for them? Maybe they are all out with the breed, especially when the experts here are telling them to get their kids some rats.


Hopefully I didn't offend the OP. I hope if they want a GSD someday, they get one. This wasn't a good fit for them, but maybe another GSD would be. I think a few of us said our ASL dogs would be a great fit for a young family. But maybe this experience was stressful and they don't want one. Or another type of dog crosses their radar and it's PERFECT. Why not just be cool with that? I don't need my breed loyalty to extend to trying to shove square pegs in round holes just because I have that breed and love it and am on that breed's forum. If you do, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Hopefully I didn't offend the OP. I hope if they want a GSD someday, they get one. This wasn't a good fit for them, but maybe another GSD would be. I think a few of us said our ASL dogs would be a great fit for a young family. But maybe this experience was stressful and they don't want one. Or another type of dog crosses their radar and it's PERFECT. Why not just be cool with that? I don't need my breed loyalty to extend to trying to shove square pegs in round holes just because I have that breed and love it and am on that breed's forum. If you do, we'll have to agree to disagree.


I think we all love the most versatile, wonderful breed in the world. These dogs have excelled at everything from stock herding, to bomb detection, to minding autistic children. 
They have maintained their position of popularity in spite of all the bad press thrown at them. 
They have proven repeatedly that even under the worst of breeders you can find solid gold. 
They make wonderful pets, guardians and partners and have consistently attracted a loyal following. Unlike some breeds whose followers border on fanatical, you will find them living with other breeds and other species routinely. And from the poorest to the wealthiest demographics all over the world.
If they are not the breed for some, that's fine by me. But I cannot imagine any setting in which some GSD would not thrive.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I think we all love the most versatile, wonderful breed in the world. These dogs have excelled at everything from stock herding, to bomb detection, to minding autistic children.
> They have maintained their position of popularity in spite of all the bad press thrown at them.
> They have proven repeatedly that even under the worst of breeders you can find solid gold.
> They make wonderful pets, guardians and partners and have consistently attracted a loyal following. Unlike some breeds whose followers border on fanatical, you will find them living with other breeds and other species routinely. And from the poorest to the wealthiest demographics all over the world.
> If they are not the breed for some, that's fine by me. But I cannot imagine any setting in which some GSD would not thrive.


Hope I don't get banned for saying this LOL but sometimes I do think about getting another breed... I've had 3 shepherds now of course I love them but it would be nice to have a dog that doesn't jump up ready to go every time you shift your butt on the couch! I also get tired of the high prey drive tendencies, really rough adolescent stage, dog reactivity, and health problems (mine all pass away when they are too young so right when we get to those golden years they are gone... it sucks.). I would love a big dog that's mellow, good with other animals, loves people, but still likes to hike, likes to stick by off leash, not dog reactive or sensitive with people, good in hot weather., long lifespan.. however i'm not so sure such a breed exists. By the time my shepherds hit 3 or 4 they always turn out to be angels and at that age I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world... I'm also a little tired of people screaming when they see my dog (maybe this happens with all dog breeds who knows?). We went black friday shopping and at home depot a family saw Gandalf walking by and they all started screaming and crying, the kids were completely hysterical. Gandalf didn't even look at them he was heeling super nice and we walked on by... it was so obnoxious the entire store stopped to stare at the family. I can understand the fear.. he looks like a giant wolf but really? He was even wearing his cute christmas collar!!!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Hope I don't get banned for saying this LOL but sometimes I do think about getting another breed... I've had 3 shepherds now of course I love them but it would be nice to have a dog that doesn't jump up ready to go every time you shift your butt on the couch! I also get tired of the high prey drive tendencies, really rough adolescent stage, dog reactivity, and health problems *(mine all pass away when they are too young so right when we get to those golden years they are gone... it sucks.)*. I would love a big dog that's mellow, good with other animals, loves people, but still likes to hike, likes to stick by off leash, not dog reactive or sensitive with people, good in hot weather., long lifespan.. however i'm not so sure such a breed exists. By the time my shepherds hit 3 or 4 they always turn out to be angels and at that age I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world...


How young are your dogs dying? I'm only asking because I'm on my first GSD and I don't want to lose her young.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> How young are your dogs dying? I'm only asking because I'm on my first GSD and I don't want to lose her young.


7.... both males :crying: ... the last one was suddenly to cancer too. He ran 12 miles with me every day and swam 4 hours a day in the pool, he looked so healthy and had hardly any grey in his muzzle. We thought for sure he was going to make it to 14. Such a shock... I think about them every day :frown2:. Here is a photo of him the week before... Couldn't have asked for a better dog. I wonder if the males die younger than females like in humans? We tried to get a female this time around but ended up with a boy again. Love him of course and wouldn't trade him for the world either now..


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> 7.... both males :crying: ... the last one was suddenly to cancer too. He ran 12 miles with me every day and swam 4 hours a day in the pool, he looked so healthy and had hardly any grey in his muzzle. Such a shock... I think about them every day :frown2:. Here is a photo of him the week before... Couldn't have asked for a better dog. I wonder if the males die younger than females like in humans? We tried to get a female this time around but ended up with a boy again. Love him of course and wouldn't trade him for the world either now..


What a beautiful coat.

I'm so sorry you lost them early.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Hope I don't get banned for saying this LOL but sometimes I do think about getting another breed... I've had 3 shepherds now of course I love them but it would be nice to have a dog that doesn't jump up ready to go every time you shift your butt on the couch! I also get tired of the high prey drive tendencies, really rough adolescent stage, dog reactivity, and health problems (mine all pass away when they are too young so right when we get to those golden years they are gone... it sucks.). I would love a big dog that's mellow, good with other animals, loves people, but still likes to hike, likes to stick by off leash, not dog reactive or sensitive with people, good in hot weather., long lifespan.. however i'm not so sure such a breed exists. By the time my shepherds hit 3 or 4 they always turn out to be angels and at that age I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world... I'm also a little tired of people screaming when they see my dog (maybe this happens with all dog breeds who knows?). We went black friday shopping and at home depot a family saw Gandalf walking by and they all started screaming and crying, the kids were completely hysterical. Gandalf didn't even look at them he was heeling super nice and we walked on by... it was so obnoxious the entire store stopped to stare at the family. I can understand the fear.. he looks like a giant wolf but really? He was even wearing his cute christmas collar!!!


I don't know about health wise, I think that gets hard to find, but those types of dogs you are talking about are out there. I think a part of it is less to do with breed and more to do with personality though, probably some training, as I've seen them across many breeds, probably easier to find in certain ones though. And as far as shepherds go the health issues are a big thing, but I have not dealt with dog reactivity or high prey drive personally.


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## Evasneds (Mar 26, 2017)

Okay first off. Breathe! 
I can understand some of your issues and I can only speak from experience with my pup I have now. Eva is my third gsd who is 11months old now. I posted on here quite a fair bit with her problems but your dogs 2 now and that's a bit worrying. 
The mistake I made was thinking all gsds were sort of the same, the dogs I grew up with were beautiful family dogs with such gentle temprements. So I got Eva thinking it would be easy-I'm an idiot. Turns out she was from working lines and her breeder ugh don't get me started. So I ended up with this high energy crazy working line horrible pup. With anxiety issues. 

A dog that's had working training like yours and been to board and train shouldn't be like this. I'd dig deeper and find out where your dog really came from and how it was really trained. 

A dog is for life, but sometimes these things happen and this is not your fault. With the responsibility of children too I wouldn't have such an agressive dog around them. Which is something I understand too, Eva could not be trusted around kids! She was and still is young but now my friends babies can come over and sit on her if they wanted. 

A muzzle- I hated doing it but it kept people and other dogs clear of us outside and others safe since I didn't trust Eva fully yet. She has a crazy prey drive and would nip people's jackets and fingers and even bums as they walked past. 

A prong- prongs are a debate, I recently just got one as she's beginning to calm down and training is sinking in. She pulled on leash, she's leash reactive and didn't have manners. 

She was bratty, bossy and at times very scary I thought I was in trouble with her issues. If you decide to stick with your dog the only advice I can give you is man up! 

I had to be a boss, I had to get Eva to work with me and for everything she wanted, I had to find a way to tell her "no!" Which was the prong, being female my high pitched tones just didn't get through to her at all. 
I worked with her, played with her and totally exhausted myself tbh but it's been good. 
You have a working dog, so you have to work hard! It takes a lot of time effort and even a few bruises and bites. 

Get a prong, but be responsible get a trainer to help u learn how to use one or study before buying I had to as the uk are against them and no trainer will condone it. 

Your situation with those three dogs could have been different, when you and your dog see other dogs, stop and get him to sit and look at you, if he breaks his look pop the collar or prong and reward for him looking at you. This is what I do with Eva and I take it very slow. We still can't walk by other dogs but I can atleast get her attention. You have to correct your dog before he locks on and all instincts take over. 

Don't feel bad, mines done something similar with a small yapper about two months ago, she may be a puppy but she's huge and she broke free from her collar AND muzzle and she didn't actually hurt the dog but it sounded worse than it did, the dogs owner screamed and wailed and ugh it was over the top but it mortified me, your situation was obviously more dangerous though. 

I hope you manage to make the right choice for your family and your pup! 
Build a bond with him
Train and play and work together. 
Be a boss! 
And get a trainer if possible I wouldn't do this alone


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Kazel said:


> I don't know about health wise, I think that gets hard to find, but those types of dogs you are talking about are out there. I think a part of it is less to do with breed and more to do with personality though, probably some training, as I've seen them across many breeds, probably easier to find in certain ones though. And as far as shepherds go the health issues are a big thing, but I have not dealt with dog reactivity or high prey drive personally.


We are working with the health on this one, feeding him raw, supplements, and lots of free off leash exercise and swimming for his joints. Where are your dogs from? I think finding a good breeder might have to do with it... I've heard so many times a good breeder will match you to the right dog. Just how do you find out who is a good breeder lol? Sorry for side tracking off the OPs post here... still a little relevant though if they ever decide to try a GSD again.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> How young are your dogs dying? I'm only asking because I'm on my first GSD and I don't want to lose her young.


Just so you don't think 7 is the norm - 

My first GSD only made it to 9. She had such bad arthritis in her spine that she lost the use of her hind legs, and had to be euthanized. (Ankylosing spondylitis of the spine is the name of the condition she had.)

The next two made it to 15 and 14, one female and one male.

My current oldest female will be 11 in January. Yesterday morning, she was chasing her tail on the back porch. This morning, we went for a 2 km. walk with a friend and her 7 year old Airedale, and she was running circles around the two younger dogs, and barking at them to GET MOVING!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> How young are your dogs dying? I'm only asking because I'm on my first GSD and I don't want to lose her young.


Just to put your mind at ease, Bud was nearly 14 and died of old age, his mom Sasha was 15, moms aunt Cassie 17, Buds uncle Romeo 16, big brother Ronin was 14, aunt Delta was I believe 13.
Sabi, with DM, 12 years 10 months and still mobile 2 years after diagnosis. Worked until 10 or so, in fact it was the tripping over her feet that caused her retirement, I was expecting to get told about arthritis or hip trouble.
Last I heard of Billy he was still around and healthy at 12.
Lexi, my black GSD and another of Buds aunts was 13 when she died.
Shadow, with a crappy start and multiple health issues is 7 and still an energizer bunny.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> 7.... both males :crying: ... the last one was suddenly to cancer too. He ran 12 miles with me every day and swam 4 hours a day in the pool, he looked so healthy and had hardly any grey in his muzzle. We thought for sure he was going to make it to 14. Such a shock... I think about them every day :frown2:. Here is a photo of him the week before... Couldn't have asked for a better dog. I wonder if the males die younger than females like in humans? We tried to get a female this time around but ended up with a boy again. Love him of course and wouldn't trade him for the world either now..


Aww man he was handsome, so sorry for your loss, 7 is way to young to lose a GSD.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Hopefully I didn't offend the OP. I hope if they want a GSD someday, they get one. This wasn't a good fit for them, but maybe another GSD would be. I think a few of us said our ASL dogs would be a great fit for a young family. But maybe this experience was stressful and they don't want one. Or another type of dog crosses their radar and it's PERFECT. Why not just be cool with that? I don't need my breed loyalty to extend to trying to shove square pegs in round holes just because I have that breed and love it and am on that breed's forum. If you do, *we'll have to agree to disagree*.


I know you know what I think about this, because we've had this conversation. So I guess you put that in there to yank my chain. I don't like those kinds of games, and I seriously considered making you my third person on ignore. 

These people weren't asking for suggestions of other dog breeds. The idea that a shepherd couldn't fill the roll of family dog is offensive coming from a shepherd site. There are a lot more people looking than participating, and folks considering a shepherd do not need to hear that kind of crap from us. There are enough haters of our breed to fill that roll. 

Every dog needs training and exercise, management around the kids, and so forth. If the op is not a candidate for a dog, that's possible. It is a matter of priorities, and some people do a lot of traveling, work on the road a lot, chase children from one extra-curricular activity to another, and truly do not have the time for a dog. Any dog. That is my point. If you are up to ANY dog, than there is a GSD that could fill your needs. It is terribly sad to have any family giving up a shepherd because a scoundrel set them up with one that was totally inappropriate for them. And now we are letting possibly great owners get away. And you know, if they get a different brand of dog, their opinion of GSDs will be created from a single bad one, and they will pass that on. Because of all the GSD people who told them that they are not for people like them. 

Ah well, I am in danger of sounding like a broken record.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> The idea that a shepherd couldn't fill the roll of family dog is offensive coming from a shepherd site. There are a lot more people looking than participating, and folks considering a shepherd do not need to hear that kind of crap from us. There are enough haters of our breed to fill that roll.


GSDs can be great family dogs for the RIGHT family... but they are not the right dog for ALL families. 

From what the OP has said about their family and dog experience, it doesn't seem to me like the typical GSD is a good fit for them. Not at all. 

Being honest with people looking for a dog that GSDs aren't right for everyone is doing right by our breed. If a family gets a better match from the get go then there is less chance for that dog to end up abandoned in a kill shelter. 

Especially considering that this OP was looking at other breeds before bringing this GSD home I don't see what is so offensive about suggestions for a more suitable breed.



> Every dog needs training and exercise, management around the kids, and so forth.


Yes, but some dogs need MORE training, exercise and management than others. Breed characteristics are a good indicator of which dogs will.

GSDs are large breed herding/working dogs. The typical GSD is going to need waaaaaaay more exercise, and different types of exercise and be more active than say a newfoundland 

GSDs have higher prey and herding drives than other breeds. More likely to have issues chasing and nipping little ones than say a beagle.

GSDs are more intelligent than many breeds. They need more mental stimulation then say a clumber spaniel

GSDs tend towards issues with aggression, possessiveness, guarding, handler sensitivity etc more than many other breeds. Which is fine. Those traits were needed for the breed's original purpose, just means that they might not be a good fit for new dog owners who struggle with the typical stuff like not jumping and pulling on the leash. 




> If you are up to ANY dog, than there is a GSD that could fill your needs.


Sure... there could be a low energy, low prey drive GSD out there that would be a fit for this family. But those dogs are not _typical_ in the breed. Not in my experience. All the GSDs I have ever met have typically been above average dogs in terms of exercise requirements, training needs, and drives. Which should be expected of a working breed. 

It seems to me that this family would have an easier time finding a dog more suitable to their needs in another breed than searching for that needle in the haystack GSD.



> It is terribly sad to have any family giving up a shepherd because a scoundrel set them up with one that was totally inappropriate for them. And now we are letting possibly great owners get away. And you know, if they get a different brand of dog, their opinion of GSDs will be created from a single bad one, and they will pass that on. Because of all the GSD people who told them that they are not for people like them.


Perhaps this is not a bad thing. Look at how many GSDs end up in rescue, in shelters, dumped at Animal Control or being listed on craigslist...

The reason this happens is primarily from bad matchmaking.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Have to ask too, why on The name of why,. You took working line gsd and bomb dog also, to a just family life.? 
My newest gsd is just under a year old, everyone says he is so lovely and obedient and friendly. There are much work behind that. Also, many wouldnt take IT to Be on The same room 24/7 with him for sure. Quite handfull, and those drives are there, and i have to handle them everytime. So does everyone else.
I have seen showlines to be better as a family dog.u want a dog to family, raise it to family. No dog couldnt possibly be family dog in 2 weeks when trained to be working bomb dog..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

voodoolamb said:


> GSDs can be great family dogs for the RIGHT family... but they are not the right dog for ALL families.
> 
> From what the OP has said about their family and dog experience, it doesn't seem to me like the typical GSD is a good fit for them. Not at all.
> 
> ...


Since you brought them up, Let's talk about Newfoundlands -- great kids' dogs. My best friend had one when we were growing up. I was at their house more often than my own. Their dog bit me when I was about ten. Also, we live in NE Ohio where it does get bloody cold, but also gets nasty hot and humid. Their dog suffered from coat issues like nothing you would find in Shepherds. And a few years ago at the Christmas Classic, guess what dog charged me and mine? Yep, a Newfie. They are large dogs that require a LOT of care, and if you screw up on training and socialization, you can have as much trouble as you can have with a shep. 

Little dogs are generally no better with kids. They are often bitey dogs with attitudes, albeit they generally need less exercise. But they can easily be hurt by children. 

I really can't think of any breed that is better for families with kids, and that includes labs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> GSDs can be great family dogs for the RIGHT family... but they are not the right dog for ALL families.
> 
> From what the OP has said about their family and dog experience, it doesn't seem to me like the typical GSD is a good fit for them. Not at all.
> 
> ...


You and I have touched on this before, maybe my definition of high energy is different, maybe I am different.
I don't see the average GSD as high energy. Can they go all day? Yes, but most of mine are good with what I see as moderate exercise. 
I walk about 17-25kms in a day. Shadow does about half that with me. We do 3-5 -45 minute fetch/training/tug sessions and some days a 20 minute search session. On weekends, weather permitting we get at least a two hour hike in where she can be on her long line.
My Sheltie needed that much, easily. My BC needed way more and my Malamute needed 10k of hard exercise, at least, to be tolerable. My Heeler was pretty active, about the same as Shadow and my SCWT's needed a couple hours exercise daily.
The only dog I have ever had that didn't need much activity was my Dane. Which incidentally are fabulous family pets and great apartment dogs. They just don't live long.

Bud needed to be exercised daily or he started getting bored, Sabi did or she got fat, but really as long as my phone didn't ring she was pretty happy lounging around playing the odd game of fetch. Lexi was the fastest GSD I have ever seen and she preferred watching TV.

I don't see these high energy GSD's.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> Since you brought them up, Let's talk about Newfoundlands -- great kids' dogs. My best friend had one when we were growing up. I was at their house more often than my own. Their dog bit me when I was about ten. Also, we live in NE Ohio where it does get bloody cold, but also gets nasty hot and humid. Their dog suffered from coat issues like nothing you would find in Shepherds. And a few years ago at the Christmas Classic, guess what dog charged me and mine? Yep, a Newfie. They are large dogs that require a LOT of care, and if you screw up on training and socialization, you can have as much trouble as you can have with a shep.


Sorry you had bad experiences with newfoundlands... but let's face it TWO dogs is not an appropriate sample size of the entire breed. They are pretty renowned for their friendliness towards children. 

Here is the temperament from the American breed standard: "Sweetness of temperament is the hallmark of the Newfoundland; this is the most important single characteristic of the breed."

And the UK one: "Exceptionally gentle, docile nature."

Those are the temperament sections in their entirety. These characteristics make them GREAT for families with kids. Assuming of course you get a well bred one that adheres to the temperament standard

Also... isn't you who were concerned about how the experience with one bad dog would effect breed reputation?



> And you know, if they get a different brand of dog, their opinion of GSDs will be created from a single bad one, and they will pass that on.


Aren't you basically doing the same thing with Newfoundlands?



> Little dogs are generally no better with kids. They are often bitey dogs with attitudes, albeit they generally need less exercise. But they can easily be hurt by children.


Lots of sturdy little dogs that aren't bitey at all that have even temperaments. Beagles. English Cockers. American Eskimos. Miniature Bull Terriers...




> I really can't think of any breed that is better for families with kids, and that includes labs.


I can think of LOTS. Some of which have been mentioned above. Just depends on what else the family is looking for in regards to size, grooming, personality, appearance, etc...


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

It's kind of ironic...... In 2000, my husband sent me to the SPCA to get a small family dog. They didn't have one, so I put an application in for a 2 year old German shepherd. I had dog experience, but not GSD experience. Back then, shelter dogs weren't evaluated that well. I had three kids 10, 6 and 2. They didn't meet the dog before the adoption. I didn't even get to meet her outside of the kennel. My husband went to pick her up, after she had just been spayed. She met the kids, when she walked into our house. And despite all that - 'Annie' was amazing. She was awesome with the kids. She was a great dog for the next 12.5 years I owned her.

It wasn't until 2008 I discovered and joined this forum. Somehow, I managed to muddle through most of Annie's life without assistance. I mean, she was 10 years old, by the time I became a member. I'm really pretty glad, because I honestly think I would have been terrified to get a GSD. Probably would have been convinced that I couldn't handle it.

IMO, 99 percent of dog ownership is common sense. Regardless of breed, you need to know your dog. Learn your dog. Understand your dog. What makes him tick? Then, you bond and build a great relationship. I don't think it is really that complicated. In my case the GSD was probably the easiest dog I have ever owned. Ask me about my beagle/JRT, the neurotic butt hole. lol!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> You and I have touched on this before, maybe my definition of high energy is different, maybe I am different.
> I don't see the average GSD as high energy. Can they go all day? Yes, but most of mine are good with what I see as moderate exercise.
> *I walk about 17-25kms in a day. Shadow does about half that with me. We do 3-5 -45 minute fetch/training/tug sessions and some days a 20 minute search session. On weekends, weather permitting we get at least a two hour hike in where she can be on her long line.*
> My Sheltie needed that much, easily. My BC needed way more and my Malamute needed 10k of hard exercise, at least, to be tolerable. My Heeler was pretty active, about the same as Shadow and my SCWT's needed a couple hours exercise daily.
> ...


From my experience working in rescue and placing dogs... this is WAAAAAAAAY more exercise than the typical american dog owner gives their dog. I spent a lot of time discussing lifestyles and realistic expectations to help find the right dog for the families looking at the dogs in our rescue.

You're giving an 5-8 mile daily walk. 3 -5 45 minute daily play and training sessions AND weekly hikes. - That is a lot. I can see a GSD or other working breed fitting well with your lifestyle

All of the GSDs and GSD mixes I have met would need close to the activity level you are already providing... but typical american families don't provide anywhere near this. Not in my experience. 

Usually they do a quick 20 minute walk in the AM, leave the dog home alone while the kids are at school and parents are at work. Then another half hour to hour long walk in the evening with a quick play session and training session. That's somewhere between a 5th and a 3rd of what you offer your dogs. 

My GSD and the majority of the people I know who have GSDs do not have a dog that would thrive with that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> From my experience working in rescue and placing dogs... this is WAAAAAAAAY more exercise than the typical american dog owner gives their dog. I spent a lot of time discussing lifestyles and realistic expectations to help find the right dog for the families looking at the dogs in our rescue.
> 
> You're giving an 5-8 mile daily walk. 3 -5 45 minute daily play and training sessions AND weekly hikes. - That is a lot. I can see a GSD or other working breed fitting well with your lifestyle
> 
> ...


Ok then. I stand corrected.

I have placed tons of dogs and been happy with the conditions on follow ups and in the training sessions I used to do. I guess I did an ok job of screening then. It didn't seem like a lot of exercise to me.
Sabi would have been content with much, much less exercise. She just liked to work and needed to get off her butt to do it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Ok then. I stand corrected.
> 
> I have placed tons of dogs and been happy with the conditions on follow ups and in the training sessions I used to do. I guess I did an ok job of screening then. It didn't seem like a lot of exercise to me.
> Sabi would have been content with much, much less exercise. She just liked to work and needed to get off her butt to do it.


You take your dogs to work don't you? I can see how it doesn't seem like much when it's so ingrained with your daily routine, but when you break it down...

5x45 minutes fetch plus 5x18 minute miles = 315 minutes of dog activity, that is 5+ HOURS. Not many families are going to be able to fit that into their 9-5 lifestyles. Plus when you factor in life - little league games, ballet class, normal kid stuff. It's not uncommon for dogs to miss a few days a week of their evening family time. Some dogs handle missed days better than others. My guy gets pretty restless if he misses his normal routine.

And even if Sabi needed less _physical_ exercise than what she got... How would she have dealt with _not working_??? Drive needs to be considered as well as energy needs.

I always placed lower energy and drive dogs with the families and higher drive dogs with greater energy expenditure requirements with singletons or couples not planning to have kids. 

IME GSD types tend towards the later. Are the the highest energy breed out there? No. But I do think they need more than what the typical American family lifestyle affords.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> GSDs can be great family dogs for the RIGHT family... but they are not the right dog for ALL families.


The right GSD is a good fit for ANY family! This thread is about an intentional deception on the part of the seller to place this particular dog incorrectly! HUGE difference! Gotta say I'm 100% with Selzer on this one...



> From what the OP has said about their family and dog experience, it doesn't seem to me like the typical GSD is a good fit for them. Not at all.


Actually, that's exactly why people started suggesting other pets. The OP made it pretty clear that she didn't really have time for ANY PUPPY OF ANY BREED! Please excuse my yelling that point >



> Being honest with people looking for a dog that GSDs aren't right for everyone is doing right by our breed. If a family gets a better match from the get go then there is less chance for that dog to end up abandoned in a kill shelter.
> 
> Especially considering that this OP was looking at other breeds before bringing this GSD home I don't see what is so offensive about suggestions for a more suitable breed.


There are, I suppose, people who for whatever reason want a slower, less intelligent and less loyal dog, though for the life of me I can't imagine why!?




> Yes, but some dogs need MORE training, exercise and management than others. Breed characteristics are a good indicator of which dogs will.
> 
> GSDs are large breed herding/working dogs. The typical GSD is going to need waaaaaaay more exercise, and different types of exercise and be more active than say a newfoundland


GSDs are MEDIUM SIZED DOGS per the standard...right?



> GSDs have higher prey and herding drives than other breeds. More likely to have issues chasing and nipping little ones than say a beagle.


Higher prey drive than other breeds? Some maybe, lower too than many others...not a fair assessment of the breed really! A good GSD that is matched to your lifestyle will be the best thing that ever happened to you, one that isn't not so much.



> GSDs are more intelligent than many breeds. They need more mental stimulation then say a clumber spaniel


Still wondering about getting a clumber spaniel...though can't find much info on them....



> GSDs tend towards issues with aggression, possessiveness, guarding, handler sensitivity etc more than many other breeds. Which is fine. Those traits were needed for the breed's original purpose, just means that they might not be a good fit for new dog owners who struggle with the typical stuff like not jumping and pulling on the leash.


Most of these issues show up in most breeds while they mature. Not at all specific to GSDs!



> Sure... there could be a low energy, low prey drive GSD out there that would be a fit for this family.


Tho OP made it pretty clear that she's currently got her hands full with her kids...not many puppies of any breed would "fit" with that, all puppies need attention and time. 




> All the GSDs I have ever met have typically been above average dogs in terms of exercise requirements, training needs, and drives. Which should be expected of a working breed.


The "average" being set by what breed? 



> It seems to me that this family would have an easier time finding a dog more suitable to their needs in another breed than searching for that needle in the haystack GSD.


This particular family, whether intentionally or accidentally, made it pretty clear that their kids require enough of their attention so as to not be really capable of taking on a puppy OF ANY BREED!



> Perhaps this is not a bad thing. Look at how many GSDs end up in rescue, in shelters, dumped at Animal Control or being listed on craigslist...
> 
> The reason this happens is primarily from bad matchmaking.


Which this was not...IMO this was very willful misrepresentation for the sole purpose of removing the dog from inventory...i seriously doubt that this seller was the breeder...just a hunch...

But IMO, all that being said, a GSD is the BEST dog you could possibly ever have...they're phenomenal...matched correctly to your lifesyle, of course >


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> You take your dogs to work don't you? I can see how it doesn't seem like much when it's so ingrained with your daily routine, but when you break it down...
> 
> 5x45 minutes fetch plus 5x18 minute miles = 315 minutes of dog activity, that is 5+ HOURS. Not many families are going to be able to fit that into their 9-5 lifestyles. Plus when you factor in life - little league games, ballet class, normal kid stuff. It's not uncommon for dogs to miss a few days a week of their evening family time. Some dogs handle missed days better than others. My guy gets pretty restless if he misses his normal routine.
> 
> ...


Shadow is my first dog in years to be a stay at home pet, also the first time in years I have had only one dog. Most of her activity stems from me being at loose ends. I am used to working at least 12 hours a day and having multiple dogs to attend to.
Five hours a day for the dog seems minimal to me.

As to Sabi, retiring was a punishment in her eyes. I tried it at age 7 and she was miserable and unhappy no matter what I did for her. We ended up letting her work until 10 or so. Then I had no choice.

When I got Sabs I had a 3 year old son and a 6 year old step daughter, I worked 12 hour shifts and was largely on my own. I just did it. Hauling two kids around, became hauling two kids and a puppy around. BUT I love dogs. So I guess it just worked for me.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> The right GSD is a good fit for ANY family! This thread is about an intentional deception on the part of the seller to place this particular dog incorrectly! HUGE difference! Gotta say I'm 100% with Selzer on this one...


And my point is hey may have an easier time finding the right _dog_ to match their lifestyle in another breed. There may be a GSD out there that is right for them, but there are a lot of other breeds as well. Maybe 1 in 100 GSDs would be good for them, but 1 in 10 Goldens would be as well. 



> Actually, that's exactly why people started suggesting other pets. The OP made it pretty clear that she didn't really have time for ANY PUPPY OF ANY BREED! Please excuse my yelling that point >


The OP also mentioned they were going to consider getting another dog in a few years. Their experience level with dogs are not going to change in that time. People's suggestions of easier breeds are still valid. 



> There are, I suppose, people who for whatever reason want a slower, less intelligent and less loyal dog, though for the life of me I can't imagine why!?


There are over 400 breeds for a reason. Different strokes. I know an elderly gentleman who prefers dogs with stubby legs because their pace is better suited to his and they can have more enjoyable walks together when evenly matched. He has a lovely Basset Hound. My sister likes dogs that chill on the couch and cuddle and she HATES exercising so her breed of choice is the old english bull dog. I have a friend who grew up with shepherds but his wife said "no big dogs" so they got a Schipperke instead. LOTS of reasons people may chose another breed. And there is NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT than matching the right dog with your lifestyle. 



> GSDs are MEDIUM SIZED DOGS per the standard...right?


Then why are GSD pups recommended to be put on LARGE BREED puppy formula for propper growth?

Most people consider a dog that is over 50lbs at maturity a large breed. 



> Higher prey drive than other breeds? Some maybe, lower too than many others...not a fair assessment of the breed really! A good GSD that is matched to your lifestyle will be the best thing that ever happened to you, one that isn't not so much.


If you are only talking about dogs from reputable breeders... then GSDs on average SHOULD possess more prey drive than your average run of the mill dog. It is a vital component to succeed at the tasks they were bred for. They are working dogs. There will be outliers of course, but low prey should never be the norm for this breed. 

A good GSD is one that adheres to the breed standard. And if your lifestyle matches THAT dog, than I agree with you that it is an amazing experience. But if your lifestyle does not match your typical breed standard GSD... then perhaps you are better off looking at other breeds instead of waiting for that outlier dog...



> Still wondering about getting a clumber spaniel...though can't find much info on them....


Nifty dogs. Super lazy. 



> Most of these issues show up in most breeds while they mature. Not at all specific to GSDs!


I disagree. Look at all the other breed specific dog forums on the internet. How many of them have a special section called "Aggression: The Good. The Bad. And the Ugly"? 

GSDs are supposed to have a natural level aggression. It is part of the breed standard. They are simply more likely to have issues with it because it is in their genetics. They are guard dogs. It's supposed to be there. 

Other breeds have specifically been bred away from aggressive tendencies. Issues with aggression in those breeds is far rarer than issues in our own breed. 




> Tho OP made it pretty clear that she's currently got her hands full with her kids...not many puppies of any breed would "fit" with that, all puppies need attention and time.


Once again.. they didn't take having a dog off the table permanently.




> The "average" being set by what breed?


How about a good ole' heiz 57 been crossed bred so much it's basically back at it's pariah dog roots run of the mill mutt. 



> But IMO, all that being said, a GSD is the BEST dog you could possibly ever have...they're phenomenal...matched correctly to your lifesyle, of course >


Yes... IF it fits your lifestyle. Which is what I have been saying all along. The simple fact of the matter is the typical GSD will NOT by the right match for all families. 

And there is nothing wrong with that.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

My parents brought home a working line GSD (our first dog!) when I was in kindergarten and my brother only a couple years older than me. The mom of the litter died so the pups had very little bite inhibition. He was a handful but he was AMAZING!!!! He walked us kids to school by himself and waited on a grassy hill until school was out. We lived in a small tight knit community and everyone knew him! People would stop to bring him water and watch as we came out school and he came running! He liked people OK but tended to be aloof, nothing like my past two shepherds. I think he was more typical of the breed. We were always safe... he was our protector and my mom never worried because Buddy was with us. When we played in the woods we often times got lost, and Florida woods are dense saw palms you can't simply push your way through without getting chopped up. All we had to do was say Buddy take us home! And he did. He was the best friend any kid could ask for, working line yet super gentle... he had tons of energy to play and us kids loved it! Smartest dog I've ever seen too, he would open doors and turn on light switches and he knew every single toy by name and would clean up after himself. My parents did very little training, it was different back then. I think shepherds make some of the finest family dogs with kids that can handle it. I always advise caution to be on the safe side so people know what they are getting into especially if they are first time dog owners. Glad you talked about the newfoundlands, I was thinking about one next but never actually met one. I'll be re thinking that decision now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Newfie's are awesome dogs. Very chill. They can also be very protective of their 'flock'. A friend has them and grew up with them. Those dogs will protect their children while being social and easy to be with.

My first choice is always a Collie. Grew up with them. Great family dogs, very easy. Just a lot of hair...but what breed isn't! A smooth coat won't eliminate the hair but will eliminate the constant grooming for knots and snarls.

Boxers take a lot of work. Again, great family dogs but they need a release for all that energy. We've had 3, one senior left.

OP - you can absolutely find a German Shepherd that will fit in your family. You just need to go to a good breeder, or a good rescue, to find one. A Czech line dog is NOT the choice and this fiasco is not on you and it's not a slam on the breed we love. That's just a LOT of dog for a first time owner and a young family!

But, take the suggestions here and give it some thought. Lots of suggestions for small animals, other breeds. I'm sure you can wade thru it all and make the decision right for your family.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

German shepherds are my favorite breed because they are not like your average dog they do require much attention, training, physical and mental outlets to be the best and the happiest they should be and the amount required ranges on the gsd. 

I don’t see anywhere here where it is implied german shepherds would be a bad family dog. You have to be a dedicated and truly want and want to make time for a gsd regardless of your schedule. Whether you are new to the dog world or not. If you are getting a gsd just because the kids want a dog and they are pretty to look at -is often why you find so many in shelters and rescues. This was a statement by the op, another reason why other breeds where mentioned. If they said they were going to continue their search for their next gsd,I’m pretty sure they would not be scrutinized.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer said 
" The idea that a shepherd couldn't fill the roll of family dog is offensive coming from a shepherd site. There are a lot more people looking than participating, and folks considering a shepherd do not need to hear that kind of crap from us"

I disagree with this . The GSD is not generic and the "family" is not generic.
A GSD is not for everyone , nor should there be attempts to breed it to conform to a universal
everyone's needs.

The GSD needs to maintain distinct breed character . 

Part of being a breeder is to truly listen to the people hoping to have a dog join there family life .
They may be wonderful , and still , not a good fit for this breed , or a particular litter or a particular dog.

When you get a call and the conversation starts off with "we are looking for a large breed and were considering either
a golden retriever or a GSD" right away the response would be the only thing in common would be an approximate size.
Then you quiz them about what they are looking for , and what they are prepared to offer the dog .

They would no sooner be a good fit for a GSD than they would be for a greyhound or a cane corso . 

you need to make the right decisions for your animal and for the people . 

Tim said
The right GSD is a good fit for ANY family! This thread is about an intentional deception on the part of the seller to place this particular dog incorrectly! HUGE difference! Gotta say I'm 100% with Selzer on this one...

voodoo said
And my point is hey may have an easier time finding the right dog to match their lifestyle in another breed. There may be a GSD out there that is right for them, but there are a lot of other breeds as well. Maybe 1 in 100 GSDs would be good for them, but 1 in 10 Goldens would be as well. 


Tim that "right" gsd that is a good fit for ANY family may be so far removed from any resemblance to a GSD .

We don't need to worry about marketability --- we need to keep the breed correct .

The breed should stand for something . 

the breed is not for everyone , nor should it be.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think many people have forgotten- or never knew- how to live with animals. 

Look at what kind of breeds have we come up with most recently- the doodle craze- an attempt to breed a muppet. Mixes with silly names of toy breeds like yorkie-poo (sounds like a digestive ailment), and the puggle. 

A nice working shepherd is not for everyone, nor should it be. Red flag- "a shepherd with a lab's personality". Then get a lab.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pashana asked "Have to ask too, why on The name of why,. You took working line gsd and bomb dog also, to a just family life.?"

The dog wasn't a bomb dog -- he was a BOMBED dog -- he failed to make the grade .
Personally I have some problems with this "story" attached to the dog , and that comes from experience
having bred, raised and prepared several dogs that were successful and certified and recertified yearly for the duration of their long working lives .

Bomb dog is no fooling around.

This dog would have , should have , could have been washed well before he hit one year of age .

lack of focus , dog aggression, many many many reasons.

There are so many "stories" used to make a dog appealing and more important or valued . If I had a nickle for every gsd out there that are sired by handsome police k9's ..... mmmm , then there would be more dogs than handlers and one in the back pocket . A virtual k9 army. 

these are people that I do not know, that might stop me on the street while I am walking my own and they come up with stories or recollections of their long-gone gsd , (before k9 were totally uncommon in LE even!) or some relative's.
And if they weren't that , then they are half wolf.

this breed captures the imagination but you need to keep it real.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> I think many people have forgotten- or never knew- how to live with animals.
> 
> Look at what kind of breeds have we come up with most recently- the doodle craze- an attempt to breed a muppet. Mixes with silly names of toy breeds like yorkie-poo (sounds like a digestive ailment), and the puggle.
> 
> A nice working shepherd is not for everyone, nor should it be. Red flag- "a shepherd with a lab's personality". Then get a lab.



golden buzzer -- YES 

people no longer know how to be with animals


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

When I my first client with a Labradoodle called me (~10 years ago), I had never heard of this phenomenon. I was baffled when he mentioned the breed. Labradoodle? A new Italian dish? Paid $2500, but spayed and neutered at 7 or 8 weeks to protect the market. I will always call them what they are :Labrador X Poodle mix.
By the way, I think the OP has left by now.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

We have one of those GSD with a "golden personality" quote from our breeder. Wish we would have done our research and saw this as a red flag. We know better now for next time. It isn't great, most people get terrified because he will sometimes intensely stare at people and wag his tail... sure Goldens can get away with it because most people find them adorable, but when a big bad white wolf does it all the kids scream ugh. I'd prefer the breed standard aloofness.... as he gets older it's getting better but it's taken so much work to get him to be neutral and not greet everyone he sees. I'm sure your need for a certain breed changes with your life too, when you're 95 years old you might not be able to handle that high drive working line anymore.... too much energy and demanding training and a young rambunctious pup could jump and accidentally send you to the hospital. When I'm too old for shepherds I'm definitely getting one of those wiener dogs!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

carmspack said:


> the breed is not for everyone , nor should it be.


And you know what, *that's perfectly okay*.


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## grits (Nov 26, 2017)

> By the way, I think the OP has left by now.

Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.

I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

"This breed is not for everyone". True, but it goes for many other breeds as well. Goldens are not for everyone, Chis are not either, etc.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just to clarify, I did not say, nor did I mean, that every family SHOULD have a GSD. And I did not suggest that the breed be altered in any way so that can happen. I did, and do, believe that the right GSD can be found for any (any not all) family, within the standard. 

A good family dog does not need to be low in prey drive nor low energy, in fact as @Gandalfthesheperd said, just the opposite is often true. Given what the OP said about their situation currently I could not in good conscience suggest they get a puppy of any breed! Puppies are too needy and require more time and energy than their situation allows at this point in time. But later on if they want to get a puppy I do think that the right GSD would make a perfect family dog for them...if this fiasco hasn't soured them on the breed...and I hope that's not the case!

I think where many people make a mistake with any puppy of any breed is that they look at full grown dogs and think that's what they'll be getting, or at least that's what they'll have soon. With a GSD puppy it's realistically 3-4 yrs out, with other breeds it varies, but it's probably safe to say that it's at least 2-3 yrs out in most cases. Not that puppies aren't enjoyable, but that dog that you admired before you got your puppy they aren't!


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

"oatmeal" I have sent you a private message. You can also "friend" me on Facebook. Cathy Hayes. Big black GSD doing bitework and a little black GSD in an Eddies Wheels car are on my page.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

grits said:


> > By the way, I think the OP has left by now.
> 
> Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


Mouthing for a dog this age with young children would be a concern for me. It could be totally easy to fix, it could not. Depends where it is really coming from, if that makes sense. I understand you haven’t had him long, and he has had a lot of adjusting to do between whoever he was with first, the board and train and now your home. With some work, everything could be fixed or managed IF his temperament is actually good. It’s impossible to tell over the internet if he has a good temperament, if he is nervy, etc. 

FWIW, I think you are making the right decision with sending him back.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

As far as the mouthing goes, GSD puppies all go through the 'landshark' stage when teething, but an adult GSD should NOT mouth. Of particular concern was him taking the 2 year old's head in his jaws, combine with him sending the small dog flying through the air. Both of these could have caused very serious injury to the child and dog.

I've had 8 GSDs so far in my life and NONE have mouthed me after the puppy stage.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

General mouthiness is not too much of a concern for me, but others might not like it and would train their dog not to do it. Since this dog is completely new to you, you have no way of knowing the preferences of his previous owner/handler. But biting, or even just putting his mouth on your 2 yr old, is not acceptable and clearly not "normal" by most anyone's standards.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> You and I have touched on this before, maybe my definition of high energy is different, maybe I am different.
> I don't see the average GSD as high energy. Can they go all day? Yes, but most of mine are good with what I see as moderate exercise.
> I walk about 17-25kms in a day. Shadow does about half that with me. We do 3-5 -45 minute fetch/training/tug sessions and some days a 20 minute search session. On weekends, weather permitting we get at least a two hour hike in where she can be on her long line.
> .



for many "average pet owners" moderate exercise would be walks long enough to go potty a couple times a day with maybe a bit longer walk a couple times a week - meaning they walk an extra few minutes after the dog pees. Many of the people I see on a daily basis don't exercise anymore than walking from house to car, parking lot to work and repeat in the evening.
Training for them consists of doing an 8 week petsmart class for 1 hour a week for 6-8 weeks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> for many "average pet owners" moderate exercise would be walks long enough to go potty a couple times a day with maybe a bit longer walk a couple times a week - meaning they walk an extra few minutes after the dog pees. Many of the people I see on a daily basis don't exercise anymore than walking from house to car, parking lot to work and repeat in the evening.
> Training for them consists of doing an 8 week petsmart class for 1 hour a week for 6-8 weeks.



Which is why I see fat Shepherd after fat Shepherd that look like barrels on sticks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> for many "average pet owners" moderate exercise would be walks long enough to go potty a couple times a day with maybe a bit longer walk a couple times a week - meaning they walk an extra few minutes after the dog pees. Many of the people I see on a daily basis don't exercise anymore than walking from house to car, parking lot to work and repeat in the evening.
> Training for them consists of doing an 8 week petsmart class for 1 hour a week for 6-8 weeks.


Oh well by and large people "badly" misunderstand the importance of walking there dog. 

If one wants to "assume" that walks are only about exercise ... "OK" then.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

grits said:


> > By the way, I think the OP has left by now.
> 
> Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? *I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust *and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


I can't really answer your questions, except to say, "Yes." It does take time for the dog to acclimate to his new home. Many rescues recommend the two week shut down, where the dog is allowed to watch the goings on of the home from a safe space - like his crate. It gives the dog a chance to decompress. For more information, you can do a search for 2 week shut-down.

As it is, I agree that you are doing the right thing in returning this dog. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but it was just the wrong dog at the wrong time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

grits said:


> > By the way, I think the OP has left by now.
> 
> Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


Glad you are still around. I think "if" this dog was ever in training, he washed out a long time ago and due to temperament issues. 
He honestly sounds more like someone bought him and neglected or where unable to do any training resulting in him being returned. 
I believe that the breeder, or whoever, that sold him to you was either uninformed or unethical. I will choose to believe the former. 

No two year old should be putting his mouth on you, and certainly not on your children. In your situation, with your level of experience, this dog is a no go. 
IF you decide at some point to get a dog, and I still believe a GSD could fit, find a reputable breeder or foster based rescue and be crystal clear and honest about your needs, and your experience.

Best of luck to you and your family, and we hope you stick around. There are many knowledgeable folks here who are happy to share their wisdom.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

grits said:


> > By the way, I think the OP has left by now.
> 
> Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


Even as a stranger on the web, I am relieved that you decided to take him back. Please, don not second-guess your decision, ever! This dog is not a pet dog for a family with small kids. He can be a fine dog with someone who has a lot of experience with these type trained, career-changed dogs.
If your heart is in a GSD, take your time to maybe find a nice young adult from a rescue that evaluates their dog very well. Or take a trainer with you to check out a potential dog. 
Thank you for the update. I am sure you both learned a lot about dogs in a very short time.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

grits said:


> > By the way, I think the OP has left by now.
> 
> Husband here. The thread went a tad sideways but we're still lurking. And thank you all for the feedback. For closure to all in the thread: we have arrangements to send him back tomorrow AM.
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.


I think you are doing the right thing. He will be a good dog for a different home. Years ago, when I was doing IPO with no kids in the house and living in acreage, I would have said ""Send him to me.". It's really difficult to say if the level of mouthiness is a concern without seeing it first hand. However, since young children are involved one has to assume the worst. You will be a good home for a different dog perhaps at a different time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

grits said:


> >
> 
> I do have a question for my piece of mind. He's been here *9 days* now. Nonetheless, pretty much any mouthiness is indeed a concern? I ask because we were warned it take both sides a couple weeks to adjust and while it's been at a level I too view as concerning I'm somewhat used to a degree of mouthing growing up with a overindulged border collie.



I would not expect mouthiness from a 2 yr old. That should have been trained out of him. A puppy, yes. An adult dog? No.


Mouthiness is one thing. Putting your toddlers whole head in his mouth is a completely different issue.


Good choice on sending him back. I hope they put in him the right home this time.


You can still find a German Shepherd that will fit with your family. I would advise either a really good breeder or a really good rescue such as Echo German Shepherd Rescue that will match your family with the appropriate dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

On the other hand, if the toddlers head was in the dog's mouth and the dog did not bite down on the head, cause bruising and puncture wounds, than the dog is showing bite inhibition. I know, I know, but really, if the dog wanted to do serious injury to the baby, he would have. 

That doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future if things did not change. The OP is taking the dog back so it is a mute point and probably for the best. 

I disagree with those who say a GSD is not a good family dog, for any family. What use is a GSD if it cannot function in a family atmosphere. A stable dog is great with kids, is not so flighty it bites non-threats, is not so prey-driven that it cannot be trusted with other resident non-humans. 

A stable GSD, can herd/tend sheep, cattle, ducks or do protections sports or other canine activites, or can work jobs like SAR, police or military k9, service dog or SAR. A stable dog does not NEED a job. It can adjust to life in an apartment, can enjoy the bed or couch, can be the companions to grandparents, and even great-grandparents -- yeah one of my pup's owners just graduated to Great on the grandparent scale, and the dog is fine. They can be managed by people in their seventies and eighties, who aren't touring around the block 5 times a day. A stable dog does not need to be run to the level of exhaustion just to be habitable. 

I do NOT want a lab or a golden in black and tan with pointy ears. They are bird dogs, and can be more problematic than shepherds. My brother's Golden ATE his kitchen. Well, be that as it may be, my brother wasn't the greatest in doing something with the dog. But that is the point isn't it? The dog is doing fine with one of his friends now. My brother ignored the dog and it literally ate the room my brother kept it in. When he was out of town, I would go and feed the dog and let it out. Nice enough dog. Nothing I wanted though. Not my thing. As for labs, I find them prone to being overweight chow hounds, rather dull and uninteresting. Though I have never owned the breed, as they are certainly not my thing. 

German shepherds were NEVER meant to be an elitist dog. They were bred out of indigenous sheep-herding dogs in Germany to create a shepherd dog for the averaged German farmer, to herd and guard his flocks, to guard the home, and to be a companion to his children and himself. Military and Police work were an after thought. The German farmer was not rich and did not want to keep two dogs to herd the sheep and to guard them. The GSD was to be an all purpose dog for the average farmer. 

The thing is, most of us are not farmers. I am sure that on your average farm, there was a lot of stimulation for your average farm dog. And moving the dogs to a less agrarian society has its issues. But a good, stable GSD can adjust to our lifestyle. One should not have to sacrifice the average family -stable dog, to get a dog capable of working. If that is the case, then errors have been made along the route. 

BTW, your average GSD bitch is a superb mother, willing to mother critters that are not her own. Tiger kits, birds, weird shtuff. And they are known to be spectacular with human children. Males too on the children thing.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> They were bred out of indigenous sheep-herding dogs in Germany to create a shepherd dog for the averaged German farmer, to herd and guard his flocks, to guard the home, and to be a companion to his children and himself. Military and Police work were an after thought. The German farmer was not rich and did not want to keep two dogs to herd the sheep and to guard them. The GSD was to be an all purpose dog for the average farmer.


I disagree with this statement. It just doesn't make sense in the context of world history or breed history.

Germany underwent a major industrial revolution in the 1870s by the 1890s the traditional/average german farmer was on a fast decline and the rise of Big Agriculture was well under way. Due to the fluctuating economics of the fledgling German Empire MANY of the small scale proprietors had to give up their holding and it was near impossible for new/young farmers to purchase even small parcels of land. This is a major reason the largest wave of German immigration to the US happened in the 1880s to mid 1890s. Historians often refer to that influx of 1.5 or so million Germans as an "agricultural emigration"...

Why then would Max V Stephanitz be creating a dog for small German farmers when there were so very few left by the time 1899 rolled around???

I think it is also important to point out, Stephanitz was no "poor german farmer". He was a military man. Born into German nobility. Look at the other founders of the SV too - the majority of them were non agricultural minded business men.

How can you say that police and military work were an "after thought" when WWI saw the use of thousands of GSDs in roles as service dogs in the war effort. Just 15 years after the founding of the breed. The first police dog school in Germany was founded in 1920 - with the GSD being their ideal candidate. This doesn't happen in the first few generations of a breed's existence with military/police work being an _after thought_. Didn't Stephanitz do some campaigning on his breed's behalf to get them into these careers? 

Horand von Grafrath was purchased in 1899. Registered as the first German Shepherd Dog in the SV the same year. The first schutzhund test happened a mere 2 years later in 1901. Established as a test of temperament for the breed. Now I grew up on a farm, we had working farm dogs. I've also been to plenty of schutzhund/IPO events. I'm no expert but, it seems to me schutzhund has a smidge more in common with police work than farm work... Two years into a breed's existence does not seem like an "after thought" to me.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I just wanted to add to my post above...

I am not arguing that GSDs are not capable herding dogs. I think Stephanitz was wise in his ideal to preserve herding instincts by having a few founders of the SV being sheep masters and allowing for HGH titles in lieu of his Schutzhund titles, as herding instincts by their very nature beget some of the most important traits of the GSD that are near impossible to test in other venues - intuition, intelligent disobedience, etc.

However, I think it was clear that the breed was intended for man-work from it's founding. 

They were meant to be so much more than just a farm or shepherd's dog. A true utilitarian working animal - be it in an industrial society or an agrarian one.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

no dog is going to be a good dog "for any family" it's just not possible. what is a good dog for one family is not going to be a good dog for another. Not just individual dogs but breeds as a whole. 
I have people all the time wanting GSDs. They simply would not be a good fit. If your idea of owning a dog is one that won't be mouthy as a puppy, won't destroy things as a puppy, gets a walk just long enough to potty 2X a day and otherwise gets no attention other than food, potty and lounging in the house while everyone watches TV - what most of the people I talk to want in a dog - then no, a GSD isn't going to be the breed for you. And a lot of those dogs won't even get a potty walk because "I have a yard. why would I take him for a walk?" No fence, of course, because "we had dogs all my life, if he wanders off he'll come back" Yes an older dog or senior might be a good fit but, as a whole, the GSD is not the breed for you.

And, yes, many of the people who want a GSD are looking for a "lab (golden retriever) in a GSD suit" because what a GSD is personality wise isn't a good dog for their family. At least they are honest about it. But many of them think that is what a GSD is. You'd likely be amazed at the number of people who assume that a GSD puppy is going to be the same as my 7 year old titled rally and therapy dog. 

Could any family be a good fit for a GSD, if they were willing to change their expectations then yes the majority would be a good home for a well-bred balanced GSD. But most simply aren't willing to make that change. They want a dog that fits in their current lifestyle and that is that.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

The original intent for the breed was to standardize German shepherding dogs. I don't know why people argue about it, it's simply part of the breeds history. It's documented and it's fact. It's why they are what they are. What they went on to become doesn't change their history.


Speaking of history......Horard was registered as a German Shepherd Dog because Max started his own registry and called him a GSD. Today people would lump him in with the cockadoodles etc. He wasn't a purebred dog he was a mutt. By today's standards, (even the SV) a dog must have 3 generations of purebred dogs behind it to be considered a pure breed. Horand along with other dogs of that time were foundation dogs for the breed, not purebred dogs themselves.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> no dog is going to be a good dog "for any family" it's just not possible. what is a good dog for one family is not going to be a good dog for another. Not just individual dogs but breeds as a whole.
> I have people all the time wanting GSDs. They simply would not be a good fit. If your idea of owning a dog is one that won't be mouthy as a puppy, won't destroy things as a puppy, gets a walk just long enough to potty 2X a day and otherwise gets no attention other than food, potty and lounging in the house while everyone watches TV - what most of the people I talk to want in a dog - then no, a GSD isn't going to be the breed for you. And a lot of those dogs won't even get a potty walk because "I have a yard. why would I take him for a walk?" No fence, of course, because "we had dogs all my life, if he wanders off he'll come back" Yes an older dog or senior might be a good fit but, as a whole, the GSD is not the breed for you.
> 
> And, yes, many of the people who want a GSD are looking for a "lab (golden retriever) in a GSD suit" because what a GSD is personality wise isn't a good dog for their family. At least they are honest about it. But many of them think that is what a GSD is. You'd likely be amazed at the number of people who assume that a GSD puppy is going to be the same as my 7 year old titled rally and therapy dog.
> ...


Very true. Most of my pet dog clients (and their dogs) would have been better off if they had for instance an English Bulldog; a dog that barely needs exercise, the only noise they make is snoring and grunting and who love to lounge around with their family. But no, people take in working and herding dogs, mutts that haven't been evaluated for temperament and voila...business for trainers and many ads on Craigslist.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Captain Max von Stephanitz was indeed a rich dude, and he did indeed breed dogs and spread them around with his equals, his class, etc. Because that was who he was. 

He could not possibly do what he did without being one of the elite. He ruled the SV as an autocratic being, I think he had his finger in allowing each mating. At least at first. He had extensive knowledge of all the dog breeds in Europe and beyond. 

By no means did he do what the doodle-people are doing. Breeding a lab to a poodle and Viola-Shazaam!!! we have a new breed: the labra-doodle. I am waiting for them to breed a rooster to a poodle so we can have a new species: the cockadoodle. There was a lot more intelligence than that, put into the creating of a breed. He registered Horand as the first sieger, and bred him to a number of bitches and culled what he did not like and then bred back in and eventually got a type. I think he made forages into adding other dogs for this trait or that, but then closed it. He had the money, the knowledge, the persistence and ability to do the thing right. And maybe people wanting to preserve dogs like the mountain cur or others ARE doing something similar with a number of fanciers. But that did not mean that he expected his dogs to be dogs for elitists/nobility. 

And that is not such a strange thing. Mastiffs -- they need room, and they need staff, they are a breed for people who have a manor and maids to clean their drool off of everything. They have to eat a LOT of meat, and while meat isn't exactly cheap in the US in a lot of countries it's a lot more expensive and being able to provide it to a 200 pound dog, well, they are dogs for people who can afford them. 

The GSD was never meant to be such. They are a medium-sized dog that are worth the meat they need to survive. And yes, they were began as a farm dog, a sheep-herding dog. When Stephanitz realized that his dog would not survive solely as a sheep-herding dog, he tried to get them used for military and police, sometimes more, and sometimes less successfully. By WWI the dogs were used in the German Military and Americans brought some back home with them. 

There was an earlier drive to get the dogs recognized or made into a breed, but it failed. Max started the SV, with Horond, but by that point I think there was already a foundation started. Where else would all the bitches Horond needed have come from? By 1899 was it? He already had a blueprint of what the dog would be. 20 years later -- how many canine generations are we talking here, they were used for police and military. But that wasn't their original function. A lot happened in those 20 years. It is actually a long time in the breed's short history.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl: My husband's cousin has a mastiff. He has no manor or maid. I'll let that working class schmoe know he's supposed to have both.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They're big dogs. They drool a LOT. Folks I know have them. They carry around a slobber rag. Ew. Your average Englishman did not have mastiffs. They are expensive dogs to keep. The point is, that the founder of our breed was not trying to make a dog that was expensive to keep.


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## oatmeal (Apr 11, 2017)

I’m sorry for just disappearing. This whole ordeal has happened at a weird time for us — during the last few days that Rexo was here our middle son came down with a nasty respiratory infection, and is just now getting over it. Our youngest caught it a couple of days later and is still quite sick (8 days later)…the oldest has it now. I’ve hardly had a chance to get back on here and catch up until now. 

Those of you who guessed that we did not get Rexo from a breeder were correct. The woman who sold him to us trains dogs for police and military work, and I believe imported Rexo from Slovakia. I truly don’t believe we were lied to…I think her idea of our ideal GSD was pretty different from ours. Looking back I don’t think I asked enough questions. I had been talking to different breeders and doing GSD research for months, and at the point when she said, “I have a 2 year old that needs to go to a pet family, I think he’s perfect for you guys,” well I was ready to be done. I wish I had grilled her more on whether or not he had ever been around kids, among many other things…

As a side note…both the trainer I bought him from and the trainer we boarded him with seemed to think his behavior was totally normal (if undesirable to us) behavior for a GSD. We were told, “Well, German Shepherds are mouthy. He’s just communicating with you. Just keep giving him the Kong or sending him to Place when he gets mouthy.” And about the incident with the small dogs, “Well he was kennel-raised, he’s always been with other dogs, I promise you he’s fine with dogs. He must have just been excited.” Excited or not…at his size straining at the leash was something I just about physically couldn’t handle.

I wanted to put a note out there about ASLs…I hope I didn’t offend anyone. I don’t have any problems with ASLs (I hardly have enough knowledge on the subject to have an opinion). We were at one point close to getting an ASL puppy from a local breeder, and honestly, I think this would have turned out so differently if we had. The breeder is a sweet lady and she emphasized that temperament was one of her number one considerations in breeding. We met her dogs and they did seem sweet. Ironically, the reason I ended up moving away from that idea was because I started talking to the trainer with whom we ended up doing Rexo’s board training, and he said he would *never* recommend ASLs to anyone. Then he referred me to the trainer from whom I eventually purchased Rexo…sigh.

Someone mentioned that instead of being an issue of breed it might be more a question of whether we were up to having a dog at the moment. That’s a great point. With the kids’ illnesses overlapping our time with Rexo, I found that when he was gone I wasn’t sad at all — in fact I’ve been so relieved every time I think “at least we don’t have to deal with the dog on top of all of this.” I guess that sounds terribly cold, but the husband and I (people with some impressive anxiety issues to begin with, pre-kid, pre-dog…) are at max capacity and then some most days already. And I mean, we KNEW that going in, totally. But we thought we just needed to step up and deal with the added responsibility of a dog, because it would be good for the kids, good for our family unit as a whole. But maybe the timing is too forced. 

Oh, and the nine year old, the one who started this whole “let’s get a dog” ball rolling…we were so worried how he’d react to hearing Rexo was going back. His response: “That’s fine. I actually wanted a Beagle anyway.” (Somebody shoot me…) But on that note — one thing I just didn’t think of that I should have, was that Rexo’s size and strength made letting the nine year old walk him just not an option. Actually he wasn’t able to very involved with Rexo in any capacity, and he was super bummed out by that. Understandably.

I’m so thankful for everybody who commented here. Instead of being in a situation where we ended up feeling super guilty for doing the wrong thing by Rexo, or feeling like we were being quitters in a situation where maybe we should have tried harder, we felt like we were (hopefully) making the wise choice for our family. Thank you!!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_His response: “That’s fine. I actually wanted a Beagle anyway.” (Somebody shoot me…) But on that note — one thing I just didn’t think of that I should have, was that Rexo’s size and strength made letting the nine year old walk him just not an option._

:grin2: That really made me laugh!
Be warned: beagles are hunting dogs, and once they get their noses on a fresh scent, they can REALLY REALLY pull!

If you do decide to get a beagle at some point, you will need some good training classes to learn how to cope with this. I have an e-friend who owns 4 beagles, and does agility with them, so I'm pretty informed on all their quirks, though they are not my breed.

Anyway, sounds like all's well that ends well!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

selzer said:


> They're big dogs. They drool a LOT. Folks I know have them. They carry around a slobber rag. Ew. Your average Englishman did not have mastiffs. They are expensive dogs to keep. The point is, that the founder of our breed was not trying to make a dog that was expensive to keep.


We got lucky with our mastiff, not much of a drooler amazingly. He drips after he has drank water but other than that doesn't drool.

OP glad it went well! Hope you get a good dog once you're ready. Will warn you beagles can be escape artists and like to go on unsupervised 'adventures'.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kazel said:


> We got lucky with our mastiff, not much of a drooler amazingly. He drips after he has drank water but other than that doesn't drool.
> 
> OP glad it went well! Hope you get a good dog once you're ready. Will warn you beagles can be escape artists and like to go on unsupervised 'adventures'.


Beagles jump on you with their sharp little toenails, and that hurts. We had one when I was a little kid. As a puppy it bit up my pant legs like you wouldn't believe. Also they have a tendancy for obesity. Not sure why that is. Probably owners.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just don't listen to your kids. They don't have a clue what's best for the family. Hope they all feel better soon. Also, don't think that you didn't ask enough questions. If you are not experienced you can't know which questions are important and the person who had Rexo is the one who is responsible for this mismatch as he/she didn't understand what you needed. My WL dog is a pet for me but I would never recommend one to a young family who are looking for a nice family pet to have around, nor would I recommend a Beagle as long as there are doors and gates in homes, that can be left open by kids.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

beagles aren't "in to people" much -- If you want to provide connectivity for the child and the dog - beagle wouldn't be the best choice .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Any dog has to be properly trained to respect thresholds and boundaries. But yeah if Beagles pick up a scent and get loose ... off they will go! Marily rescued one at work, he had tags. He got out of the yard and went for desert jaunt he was found miles from home. Just out for a jog I suppose, he did not seem to be concerned about where he was??? And the owner was not surprised ... he does this all the time kinda thing. It's what dogs do???


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> It's what dogs do???


It's what scent hounds do. They only care for people if there is nothing else to do for their nose.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

If I had a penny for every fat stray beagle I have found..... LOL. One of the beagles the owner saw my found signs and came to pick it up... I asked him what he fed it and he said "Usually burger king cheese burgers and kibbles n bits" :surprise:


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Beagles LOVE to eat, that’s for sure.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

OP thanks for updating us on your situation. I'm glad that you were able to send the dog back, and I hope that he finds the perfect home for him. I hope you all get over your illnesses and feel better soon.

I've never owned a beagle myself, and I'm not trying to convince you to get a beagle, or any dog, but the ones I've spent time with have been delightful, smallish, friendly dogs. I'm sure there are cons to owning them too, as there are with any breed. 

One of my friends had two beagles that they took rabbit hunting, but lived in the house with them as pets, and they seemed very sweet and affectionate. Were they as highly attuned to their owner or as easily trained as a GSD? Probably not. Maybe not everyone needs or desires that. Also, they might howl like other hunting breeds...but I'd have to do some research on that.

I used to walk beagles with that friend at the local beagle rescue, and those untrained dogs pulled on the leash, but they were too small to sweep us off our feet. They did LOVE to sniff. I would not have taken them off leash. They were friendly, fun, always so glad to see us, and their intimidation factor was 0 (if one happened to be a little intimidated, overwhelmed, or inexperienced with large working dogs). They spent hours and hours in kennels at the boarding facility, which most likely accounted for some of their exuberance and pulling. I felt really sad for them. I lived in an apartment at the time. It said in my contract I could only have one dog, otherwise I'd have probably been tempted to adopt one even though they aren't my thing. GSDs all the way for me and mine. That friend ended up having a baby and then twins a few years later. I moved to a different state and haven't kept in touch with her as well as I'd like, but I believe she still has her dogs.

Every family who chooses to have a dog needs to decide what traits they enjoy in a breed, those they can tolerate, and those they can't live with. One of my all time favorite breeds is the rough collie, but I refuse to deal with all that fur and all that grooming. Also, I am very fond of Siberian Huskies, but prefer a more trainable dog that doesn't tend to bolt out open doors, and that you don't have to constantly keep on a leash. Probably a reason I wouldn't have a greyhound, even though I love them. 

OP, I agree with others who have said that you shouldn't pick a dog based on what your kids want. Decide what you can manage in case you end up being the caretaker. I wanted a rough collie all of my childhood. My parents finally relented to a puppy when I was 13, but said I had to pick a toy breed (ugh) as they always owned and loved shihtzu and maltese mixes. I begged for a sheltie. That little dog was my best friend. I did all her housebreaking, training, grooming, walking ect, and had so much fun. Then, when I was in high school they let me get a GSD because they knew they could trust me to do all the work.

Op, if you don't have time or the inclination to own dogs yourself, that's okay, too. Perhaps you and your son could volunteer to walk, train, or play with the dogs at a local shelter or rescue. I truly enjoyed walking those beagles at a time when I had a dog who didn't like to go on walks.

(Also, I am sorry for this over-long post. I'm more concise when I've had more sleep.)


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I second volunteering at the local shelter for a while. We did this for 5 years when I was in grade school after our first shepherd passed away. It helped with the grieving process for us. For a family just starting off I think it would be a great way to get the kids used to participating in all the chores a dog requires and you will get to see lots of different breeds come through and see what you all gravitate towards. Just be careful though... some shelters don't scan their dogs well, several we interacted with we came back the next day to play with and they apparently had been put to sleep because they bit someone. Just make sure it's a good shelter or maybe foster with a rescue? Who knows you might even find the perfect dog in the process....


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Our family used to foster puppies from our local RSPCA when our 5 children were young. We had litters, single puppies, or adult dogs, for usually 2 weeks at at time. I stopped counting the number of dogs we had fostered after we reached 50. One dog we fostered would subissively roll onto his back when he met someone. He did this once when meeting someone he didn't know in a river. He submerged, but quickly regained his feet, while spluttering.

Our family also looked after guide dogs that were in training, but who needed a holiday. The Guide Dogs trainers liked the experience the dogs got living with all of our children. The guide dogs knew obedience commands and how to live in a household. We had one that would politely and gently 'share' my 2 year old son's vegemite sandwiches, if he thought an adult wasn't looking. Another guide dog returned to training knowing how to play 'statues', picked up by watching my children play, while in the yard with them.

Our children learnt a lot. Some lessons were hard, such as not leaving stuff you valued laying around to be chewed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

oatmeal said:


> Someone mentioned that instead of being an issue of breed it might be more a question of whether we were up to having a dog at the moment. That’s a great point. With the kids’ illnesses overlapping our time with Rexo, I found that when he was gone I wasn’t sad at all — in fact I’ve been so relieved every time I think “at least we don’t have to deal with the dog on top of all of this.” I guess that sounds terribly cold, but the husband and I (people with some impressive anxiety issues to begin with, pre-kid, pre-dog…) are at max capacity and then some most days already. And I mean, we KNEW that going in, totally. But we thought we just needed to step up and deal with the added responsibility of a dog, because it would be good for the kids, good for our family unit as a whole. But maybe the timing is too forced.


I don't think that sounds cold at all, I think it's perfectly understandable, under the circumstances. You made the best decision for your family and for the dog too. Lesson learned, move on.


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