# Its a unicorn!!



## Blitzkrieg1

No...just a Show Line that works well. Now the question is this a freak of nature or the result of planned breeding?


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## carmspack

this kennel puts a lot of emphasis on working ability .

One of my females was bred to X-Justified von TeMar -
a successful combination .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/189473-results-2012-canadian-nationals.html

Temar Shepherds : About - What We Do | German Shepherds Breeders in Oregon, Puppies for sale.


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## Mary Beth

Wow - looks, intelligence, and drive! I'd say planned breeding.


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## RocketDog

Well well well....


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## Blitzkrieg1

Now are there other dogs that can work similarly from this kennel? Is there proof not anicdotes...especially about SAR...? 

A consistent record of producing decent working dogs? If not, then one can only assume this dog to be the exception not the rule.


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## Gib_laut

How do you know thats a show line dog? Is there a Pedigree? 

I would be impressed if that was all show line and not a cross. 

Blitz there are plenty of show line crosses that get titles. Just because they look nice doesn't mean they are automatically nervy or don't have enough drive. Working lines just have more oomph/intensity and look more flashy.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Google it far as I know he is all showline. Have never seen one do that well on the field. Not great but definitely good.


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## Gib_laut

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Google it far as I know he is all showline. Have never seen one do that well on the field. Not great but definitely good.


92 is considered great to me. May be lacking a tad in intensity but technique is great

If that's an all show line dog the owner must be a millionaire from just stud fees.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Not the performance the dog. The trainer is definitely great.


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## Jax08

carmspack said:


> this kennel puts a lot of emphasis on working ability .
> 
> One of my females was bred to X-Justified von TeMar -
> a successful combination .
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/189473-results-2012-canadian-nationals.html
> 
> Temar Shepherds : About - What We Do | German Shepherds Breeders in Oregon, Puppies for sale.


I hear good things about Dei Precision as well. I met an Xbox son. Nice dog. There are some nice show lines out there.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Google it far as I know he is all showline.


He's showline. I've had two TeMar dogs, Griff's grand-dam Teela v Bullinger is the dam of Dena & Keefer.


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## Colie CVT

From what I have gathered seeing dogs that are worked and ones that aren't, generally speaking, the showline dogs don't usually have the kinds of drives and nerves to do that kind of work. When I was first looking back at my own dog's lines, when I saw dogs with V and VA with SchH titles, I thought it was something to be proud of, though it was clear when talking with the trainer I was working with, it isn't something that is considered the same as a dog from working lines. It seemed that in some of those cases, who the judge was, how the dog scored, etc were things that had to be considered. 

I am not doing sport with my dog, but I know that Leia is the only dog from her kennels that is being worked in protection. Her breeder was thrilled when I told her what I was doing and how Leia was doing. The trainer always had good things to say about her, and that made me proud. Sounds like the line that dog comes from is showing that they can prove the ability and drive to work. Not one to likely beat out working lines maybe, but it is nice to see show lines that can produce a dog who can work!


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## carmspack

Timo Berrekasten was said to have convincing work in schutzhund 2X VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten


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## volcano

The one thought in my head= Who cares about the showline side? Its to impress people on looks, and those people who judge have completely different opinion than me on what looks good. Id prefer to see a sable doing the same routine because I think sables crush black and tan in attractiveness. Im biased!


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## RocketDog

The day you get certified by a real SAR team will be the day you can say something about it. Until then you might as will be talking out your a-- 

When qbchottu has more time, since she is attending to puppies right now that are only a day-old, I'm sure she can reference some excellent show lines that work.


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## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Google it far as I know he is all showline. Have never seen one do that well on the field. Not great but definitely good.



You need to get out more then.


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## Alice13

I personally know people with show lines trained for protection. This doctor I know has show lines trained to the highest level, one of them well recognised in Europe. Mind you they were very beautiful too. Go to his house and his dogs sit as close as they are allowed to you and watch you. All it takes is a command from their owner and you are finished. It was after seeing his dogs that we decided to get a gsd and that too a show line.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## elisabeth_00117

There is another showline in our area that works pretty well. He at least stood out to me two years ago when he was yet to be titled (has since went on to title I believe with Anick as his handler but owned by a older gentleman who I can't remember his name at the moment). Dogs name was Tattoo and he was training with Scaraborough. Nice dog. 

They are out there (showlines with good working ability) you just have to pay attention.


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## Bobby25104

I would have to say plan breeding. My gsd is a mix of working lines and show lines. And he presents the nerves and the drive to compete.


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## Blanketback

Sooo Blitzkrieg, is your next GSD going to be a SL?


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## Yoshi

Aww, I really wanted to see the unicorn.


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## lhczth

Griff is 100% show line. He has done very well. Not my type of dog, but he deserves any accolades he has received. The kennel he is from has consistently produce good dogs. Most of them, though, don't get into the hands of people like Griff's owner. 

Vandal Mittelwest and Chloe Bullinger are two more good show lines that I know (have seen them in training) off the top of my head. Both of these dogs have competed well and gone to the world Universal Sieger competition. There are others out there that could be fairly nice competition dogs if the owners actually cared about that. The percentages are low per litter, but they do exist. The biggest problem is many of them do not produce themselves. 

A friend of mine has a very nice young (18 months?) female that will be titled either this fall or next spring. The hard part will be finding a male to breed her to. The bloodlines are all the same.


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## RocketDog

Lisa, did you ever see Titan Mittelwest?


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## qbchottu

Don't have the time right now to correct the fallacies in this thread. Have dogs to work and newborns to look after. 

I find it laughable that someone that needs to google a pedigree to see if it's a showline and has no insight into an entire lineage of dogs is passing judgement so freely. It is true that the armchair quarterbacks are those with the loudest opinions - whereas those that walk the walk are too busy with real life to bother with such airheads  

Blitz: learn a thing or two about the GSD - then come back and give us a halfway decent opinion because right now, you sound so ignorant that you just can't be taken seriously!


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## RocketDog

Wait-- where are Jax's other posts? 

Zambo Riedschlurgi, Nino Tronje, Mentos Osterbergerland, Chole Bullinger, Aschi Haus Hutfield, Quanta Plassenburg, Furbo dA, Waiko Schaumbergerland, Enosch Amasis Karats Ulko, Yello St michaelsberg, Enzo buchhorn. These were mentioned to me privately. 

Maybe you should try catching Quanta-- I've heard she'll take your arm off.


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## lhczth

Rocketdog, no, but I think I have heard good things about him. I, for the most part, don't pay attention to the modern GSL dogs. I know, when looking at a pedigree, where the working ability may be coming from, but that is where my interest ends. My friend with the young female does talk to me about different dogs and what they bring to the picture so I try to at least pay some attention. 

Chloe Bullinger is a very nice dog. Will be interesting to see what she produces. Vandal was very strong in protection, but difficult in obedience. Also a very good tracking dog. I have not, yet, heard about how he is producing. His temperament is extremely sound.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Keef's gran-sire was supposed to be pretty impressive too: 

VA1 Triumphs Gucci Universal Sieger

VA1 UNIVERSAL SIEGER Triumphs Gucci


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## Gib_laut

qbchottu said:


> I find it laughable that someone that needs to google a pedigree to see if it's a showline


You can tell by a video if it's a full showline or not? Now that's ignorant and laughable


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## RocketDog

Gib_laut said:


> You can tell by a video if it's a full showline or not? Now that's ignorant and laughable


You totally misunderstood that.


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## Merciel

Yoshi said:


> Aww, I really wanted to see the unicorn.


ahee

I knew before opening the thread what it was going to be, except I was guessing it was going to be an ASL, not a German showline.


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## carmspack

The reality is that the GSD is a split breed , AMSL , GSL, Sport and Working -- . EACH group has to ensure that the basics are sound . 

Sound .


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## qbchottu

Gib_laut said:


> You can tell by a video if it's a full showline or not? Now that's ignorant and laughable


Perhaps one day when you have had enough experience, I hope you will recognize your level of ignorance, and perhaps even find it laughable. I have had quite a bit of a chuckle over this thread so far 

Yes I _can _tell by the video that he's a German showline. When you've been around dogs enough, showed them, worked them, bred them, and poured over pedigrees for thousands of hours - you can. 

Know why else I can tell? I know Griff and his handler Karen Sinclair. I've seen Griff at several shows - including the 2012 USA Sieger Show where he was awarded a performance award for his bite work. I remember celebrating with her at the venue bar that night! 

I have kept close track of Griff and his progeny as well - since I wish to breed to Griff in the future. Only issue is that he is up in BC Canada and I am on the East Coast. I will likely have to do AI with my proven bitch as he is a super dog with excellent genetics behind him. Conformationally not a VA dog IMO, but has the substance and ability to deserve to be on top. I have seen his progeny work and show. I have studied the pedigree matchup between Griff and my females - I have evaluated the pros and cons. I have considered the line breeding, where I will take the progeny, and what would match with the progeny for the next generation. 

Now lets break down the pedigree 
A side note to Blitzkrieg: pay attention here since you are so interested in whether this was a flash in the pan or an intentional matchup. 

Griff's strength comes from both the father and mother line - but the majority of his strength comes from his mother Ule. Dux Cuarto Flores was a very nice dog with lot of drive and good temperament, but he not necessarily produce this in his progeny. However, Ule Temar (Karen's old competition dog before Griff) was a super bitch. She hit the sleeve like a male, had a deep nose, and an intense love to work. I believe Karen truly fell in love with competing in IPO after working Ule. Ule goes back to Teela Bullinger. Tracy Bullinger's kennel has some of the top working show lines in NA. Consistently produces dogs with drive and ability to work. This is because of a sustained and closely monitored breeding program that relies on tough, strong bitch lines to preserve working ability. Ule's father is Gandhi Arlett (Margit van Dorssen's kennel - SV judge and a pillar in the breed - she is also known for conserving and campaigning the sable German showline). Gandhi was a very nice dog and frequently line bred on for conformation and reliable temperament. He was line bred on Cello - known for good working ability and strength. Going back even further into Ule's bitch line is the key to Griff's working ability: Hillo de Marne la Vallee. He was a crazy mf - aggressive on the sleeve, took protection seriously, drive out the ears, and very dominant dog. It took a very strong handler to handle him to his full capacity. I remember hearing the Germans a couple years ago at the Canadian Sieger show talking about him - they STILL talk about his bitework and strength. He had a nasty streak that when bred to the right bitch produced tough dogs that were resilient and driven. There are a few showlines out there like this and I have always admired them as infusing your program with them tends to give necessary vigor, attitude, drive, and nastiness. 

To answer your question - yes this was a very carefully thought out and planned breeding, because if you understand the genetics, you can make reliable predictions on your progeny. 


So tell me again Gib_laut about how ignorant I am - I need another chuckle 

When you can break down a pedigree like this, I might give you the time of day. But as of now, you are all bark and no bite my friend. Hit the books, and come back when you are ready to play with the big dogs.


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## simba405

qbchottu you can tell by a pic or video what lines a dog comes from? that might be the stupidest thing i've ever heard on this board


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## qbchottu

hahahaha thanks for that simba405 

You guys are just too much - what happened to this board? Did everyone with a modicum of knowledge hit the road? 

Seems like it - too bad!


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## simba405

qbchottu said:


> hahahaha thanks for that simba405
> 
> You guys are just too much - what happened to this board? Did everyone with a modicum of knowledge hit the road?
> 
> Seems like it - too bad!


you're welcome 

you gave me a good laugh so i gave you a good laugh. being able to tell what lines a dog is based on nothing but conformation and color.....ahahahhahahahaahahahah


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## qbchottu

carmspack said:


> The reality is that the GSD is a split breed , AMSL , GSL, Sport and Working -- . EACH group has to ensure that the basics are sound .
> 
> Sound .


Well put and completely agree!


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## Steve Strom

qbchottu said:


> Perhaps one day when you have had enough experience, I hope you will recognize your level of ignorance, and perhaps even find it laughable. I have had quite a bit of a chuckle over this thread so far
> 
> Yes I _can _tell by the video that he's a German showline. When you've been around dogs enough, showed them, worked them, bred them, and poured over pedigrees for thousands of hours - you can.
> 
> Know why else I can tell? I know Griff and his handler Karen Sinclair. I've seen Griff at several shows - including the 2012 USA Sieger Show where he was awarded a performance award for his bite work. I remember celebrating with her at the venue bar that night!
> 
> I have kept close track of Griff and his progeny as well - since I wish to breed to Griff in the future. Only issue is that he is up in BC Canada and I am on the East Coast. I will likely have to do AI with my proven bitch as he is a super dog with excellent genetics behind him. Conformationally not a VA dog IMO, but has the substance and ability to deserve to be on top. I have seen his progeny work and show. I have studied the pedigree matchup between Griff and my females - I have evaluated the pros and cons. I have considered the line breeding, where I will take the progeny, and what would match with the progeny for the next generation.
> 
> Now lets break down the pedigree
> A side note to Blitzkrieg: pay attention here since you are so interested in whether this was a flash in the pan or an intentional matchup.
> 
> Griff's strength comes from both the father and mother line - but the majority of his strength comes from his mother Ule. Dux Cuarto Flores was a very nice dog with lot of drive and good temperament, but he not necessarily produce this in his progeny. However, Ule Temar (Karen's old competition dog before Griff) was a super bitch. She hit the sleeve like a male, had a deep nose, and an intense love to work. I believe Karen truly fell in love with competing in IPO after working Ule. Ule goes back to Teela Bullinger. Tracy Bullinger's kennel has some of the top working show lines in NA. Consistently produces dogs with drive and ability to work. This is because of a sustained and closely monitored breeding program that relies on tough, strong bitch lines to preserve working ability. Ule's father is Gandhi Arlett (Margit van Dorssen's kennel - SV judge and a pillar in the breed - she is also known for conserving and campaigning the sable German showline). Gandhi was a very nice dog and frequently line bred on for conformation and reliable temperament. He was line bred on Cello - known for good working ability and strength. Going back even further into Ule's bitch line is the key to Griff's working ability: Hillo de Marne la Vallee. He was a crazy mf - aggressive on the sleeve, took protection seriously, drive out the ears, and very dominant dog. It took a very strong handler to handle him to his full capacity. I remember hearing the Germans a couple years ago at the Canadian Sieger show talking about him - they STILL talk about his bitework and strength. He had a nasty streak that when bred to the right bitch produced tough dogs that were resilient and driven. There are a few showlines out there like this and I have always admired them as infusing your program with them tends to give necessary vigor, attitude, drive, and nastiness.
> 
> To answer your question - yes this was a very carefully thought out and planned breeding, because if you understand the genetics, you can make reliable predictions on your progeny.
> 
> 
> So tell me again Gib_laut about how ignorant I am - I need another chuckle
> 
> When you can break down a pedigree like this, I might give you the time of day. But as of now, you are all bark and no bite my friend. Hit the books, and come back when you are ready to play with the big dogs.


Right up front, I'll tell you I can't break down any pedigrees, but I have an honest question for you. Looking at your website, looks like maybe you've moved to working lines? What was your experience trialing showlines? Did you have much success? Are you going back to them?

That's more then one question, huh. Lol.


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## RocketDog

Thank you for such a great post qbchottu. I love reading your stuff. Rocket has Ghandi in his line (and of course Titan).


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## qbchottu

Steve Strom: 
I have both working and show lines - always will. I love both lines, recognize their strengths and weaknesses, and will happily acknowledge their differences. There is no perfect dog and no perfect line. Each has its merits. contributions, and necessity. 

For IPO, in order to achieve top scores, you will need to get a working line. The showlines in general do not have the over the top intensity and drive to achieve the points required at national level events. However, showlines can and do work - they are a different beast to work in sport. I love working my show dogs as well. 
Here are some examples of my girls:


























For conformation, depending on which venue you desire, you will need to go with a German or American showline. Conformation shows are a lot of fun. I enjoy conditioning my dogs, getting them ready for shows, teaching them to gait and stack properly, socializing to the ring and crowd, and working them around gunfire. Conformation is very enjoyable to those that like to assess and evaluate structure. It's a lot of fun for me to study each dog, watch his performance in the ring, evaluate his temperament, and see him move. A GSD gaiting is like music to my ears - I love to watch the handlers, dogs, and crowd work together to compete for the best moving and structured dog that day. It is also interesting to see how different judges evaluate the same dog, and how they think that particular dog could improve. My breeding female has been shown about two dozen times under many different judges, and each judge will have a new insight that helps me make breeding decisions later on. 

For tracking, I will take my showlines over my working dogs. With my working dogs, I have to really work hard to hold them back and force them to think when on a track. They are more likely to blow past food on the track or get overwhelmed with drive to a point where they cannot focus. There have been many days when my show dogs were the only ones that worked a track properly as the working dogs were distracted or in overdrive that day. 

For the home, I have showlines in the house primarily. The working dogs tend to like to be outside and playing. They feel uneasy in the home at times and will constantly be on the move. It can be a bit much in the house so I much prefer my show dogs in the house. 

For going out to the park or being around children - I prefer my show lines. The working dogs are focused for the ball and wish to work. They are not as interested in socializing. They want to work - which is great on the sport field or out on the job, but not great when I have my young cousins over as the working dogs are liable to knock them over and so on. My working dogs don't have an issue with children, but I prefer not to chance a high drive working dog knocking over a toddler chasing for the ball. 

Obedience - I prefer working lines. Show dogs are hard to motivate for obedience. They don't really like it as a whole, and will be stubborn through the process. They are pigheaded and it can be a pain to do obedience. My working dogs love obedience and are a joy to work on these exercises. However, certain portions such as the long down, outs, and so on can be an issue with WL as they are more likely to break IME. Show dogs generally have lackluster obedience so I prefer my WL that will do happy, hoppy, spirited obedience. 

Hmm...sure I'm forgetting more, and I suppose this is more than one answer


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## Steve Strom

How about trialing them? Do the things you prefer make trialing them enjoyable? Not higher level or anything, just trialing. I'm not trying to stir the WL vs Sl pot, I'm just curious about whether its worth it or not. 

I probably fall into the point Lisa made, about it not being my preference, showlines I mean,, but did the calm, steady tracking make it worth the stubborn ob? Did the hitting the sleeve on the long bite make it worth while?


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## llombardo

qbchottu said:


> Obedience - I prefer working lines. Show dogs are hard to motivate for obedience. They don't really like it as a whole, and will be stubborn through the process. They are pigheaded and it can be a pain to do obedience. My working dogs love obedience and are a joy to work on these exercises. However, certain portions such as the long down, outs, and so on can be an issue with WL as they are more likely to break IME. Show dogs generally have lackluster obedience so I prefer my WL that will do happy, hoppy, spirited obedience.
> 
> Hmm...sure I'm forgetting more, and I suppose this is more than one answer


I agree with this. My female won't budge but I can just see the wheels turning with the male.


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## qbchottu

There are a couple showlines out there with admirable obedience, but in general, I've never liked working my show dogs in obedience. At the start, they will be very motivated and happy to work, but as time goes on, they just don't have the genetics to truly get motivated by obedience so it is tough to sustain their drive through the more difficult obedience exercises such as the dumbbell. Even with correction, they are very pigheaded and refuse to do something if they don't feel like it that day. It can be a frustrating process, but tapping into their food and toy drive is the key. Have to maintain their positive attitude towards the work, and keep the sessions short and upbeat.


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## qbchottu

Working both is enjoyable to me. The key is to realize the differences and appreciate them for what they are. I cannot make an apple into an orange no matter how hard I try so I will enjoy each for what it is - if you see what I mean. 

It is definitely worth trialing any dog - regardless of lines. Trialing is where you can showcase your hard work and do it "for real". It is a lot of fun to go out there with your dog (regardless of lines) and perform. Just because one might score better on a track during a rough day or the other might have more exciting bite work does not negate the value in the other. I don't expect my show dog to have flashy obedience so I am just happy to have her work with me and perform her exercises. I love tracking her because she is methodical, consistent, and reliable. My working dog might act like a dummy on the track, but that doesn't make it any less worthwhile in my eyes, because even through her setbacks, I am lucky to be out there in nature with my dog. 

Simply being with my dog is enjoyable - regardless of what we are doing. So yes, it is definitely worthwhile in my eyes.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, I automatically assume someone like Griff's owner has some skill. How did your's trial?


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## Sunflowers

simba405 said:


> qbchottu you can tell by a pic or video what lines a dog comes from? that might be the stupidest thing i've ever heard on this board


And you are qualified to make this judgment because?



simba405 said:


> I've had a prong collar on my 10 month boy ever since he turned 6 months. it has stopped him from pulling and whenever he misbehaves i just give it a good yank to fix the problem. he is really well behaved and has free run of the house already. he stays home alone all the time and doesnt mess up anything. he walks well on a leash and doesnt pull.
> 
> But does a prong collar REALLY fix the problem? I'm beginning to think he doesnt pull because he doesnt want the pain. He still doesnt know what i want from him. i'm starting to think clicker/positive is the way to go to get him to understand what i really want. i want to get rid of the prong all together. but if i use a clicker and tell him to sit and he looks at me and says MAKE ME, then what? what is the most effective way to make a dog understand what you want him to do?
> 
> the prong has been extremely effective but im not sure if its correcting the problem or just masking it.



Ah, I remember you! This is your dog! Getting all Cujo...on you!
:rofl:

http://youtu.be/K-5Ez86SghQ


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## qbchottu

On the contrary - I don't enjoy showing my working dogs for the most part. They vocalize constantly, tend to lumber along like clumsy Clydesdales, have little refinement in the ring, and are harder to handle. I have also seen more than one working handler be forced to handle their own dogs in the ring because the dog is too suspicious, aggressive, and nasty to be handled/stacked by a new handler. My show dogs as a whole do not have a problem being handled, stacked, measured, moved, and touched by a foreign handler. Things like checking teeth and testicles can be tricky with some working dogs. My Xochi for example cannot be handled by anyone else - we found this out the hard way at 2 conformation shows. She tends to vocalize for me, will drive into the ground instead of gaiting properly with her head up, and loses drive for the ring if she is not being constantly stimulated - which is difficult because if she sees me, she breaks gait and goes nuts trying to get to me. It's difficult to get a routine down for my WL that will work in the show ring. 

On the other hand, my show dogs (predictably) are naturals in the ring. Born gaiting, will go up in the front, head up looking for me, stand well for examination and stacking, allow outside handlers to handle them, and love to be in the show ring. They are happy, driven, excited, and powerful in the ring - it's a lot of fun to see my hard work of conditioning the dogs, doing ring training, and preparing for the show pay off in the ring. I appreciate and love learning the judge's critique my dogs - it's very helpful to have an outside party evaluate my dog and offer advice for the next generation. It's an art to me - except the medium is a living creature that I get to snuggle with afterwards


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## qbchottu

My girl did fine - her obedience was lackluster, but I expected this 

Oh one more thing to add - my working dogs spend a lot more time injured and on crate rest. They have such drive that there seems to be a lack of self-preservation when they go into overdrive. Currently my bicolor Bear is on crate rest and has a cast as she broke her toe going after the ball. My Xochi was on crate rest the past two weeks - she barreled out of the dog trailer when we were out at the park tracking and banged her shoulder into a tree. What makes it worse with these dogs is that they are so driven and active that they NEED to move around. This makes crate rest or casting an enormous pain because these dogs are just miserable sitting in the crate. I have had some refuse to eat when they are not worked consistently. They are nutters, but what can you do! 

I haven't had these type of clumsy accidents as a result of overdrive from my show dogs - they are clearer in the head and don't let their drive overwhelm their faculties.


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## Gib_laut

qbchottu said:


> So tell me again Gib_laut about how ignorant I am - I need another chuckle
> 
> When you can break down a pedigree like this, I might give you the time of day. But as of now, you are all bark and no bite my friend. Hit the books, and come back when you are ready to play with the big dogs.


Just because you are knowledgeable about a certain dog doesn't make you any less ignorant. 

My issue is you calling someone ignorant because they had to google a pedigree to see where the dog came from. I certainly can't tell what type of dog it is based on looks but maybe I'm not as smart as you? :what:

Hit the books? Last I checked the knowledge people are the ones out actually working the dogs and seeing those traits displayed. The ones that read books and make assumptions off them are the ones that is all bark and no bite :thumbup:


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## glowingtoadfly

Ah, so my working dogs are not the only ones who only like certain people touching them. That is a relief.


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## RocketDog

Giblet---Um. Boy. Maybe you should go back and learn to read. 

Start with the last page or two of posts.


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## Steve Strom

qbchottu said:


> My girl did fine - her obedience was lackluster, but I expected this


 She got through the whole routine though? Retrieve's and send out? That would make it worthwhile, I think, even if it was flat. Not losing her counts for something.


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## glowingtoadfly

Sunflowers said:


> And you are qualified to make this judgment because?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I remember you! This is your dog! Getting all Cujo...on you!
> :rofl:
> 
> Resource guarding - YouTube


Wow.


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## Mrs.P

RocketDog said:


> Thank you for such a great post qbchottu. I love reading your stuff. Rocket has Ghandi in his line (and of course Titan).



I agree thank you for the pedigree break down qbchottu! Very nice to read through!


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## RocketDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> Wow.


Yes, that was a GREAT post, wasn't it?


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## Courtney

I so appreciate you qbchottu


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## qbchottu

glowingtoadfly said:


> Ah, so my working dogs are not the only ones who only like certain people touching them. That is a relief.


It's not just you!!! My WL do not like others to handle them - I do the bulk of holding, and handling - even at the vet


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## RocketDog

Mrs.P said:


> I agree thank you for the pedigree break down qbchottu! Very nice to read through!


Qbchottu is a gem. She has a wealth of knowledge of SL. She is a major asset to this board.


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## glowingtoadfly

RocketDog said:


> Yes, that was a GREAT post, wasn't it?


People in glass houses...shouldn't throw Molotov cocktails.


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## Steve Strom

You guys can all hug and pet my working line. He's got get good nerves.


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## RocketDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> People in glass houses...shouldn't throw Molotov cocktails.


I truly do not even know what you're talking about. The knowledge base of qbchottu isn't even in the same ballpark -- same CITY as those other two. To call her ignorant.... :crazy:


----------



## RocketDog

Anyhow, I'm off to Montana, where base camp is higher than where most of you live. I'm going mountain climbing and over and up metal mesh staircases and towers to fire lookouts at 7,000' with my weak WGSL. 

Thanks for the great read and thread qbchottu.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

RocketDog said:


> I truly do not even know what you're talking about. The knowledge base of qbchottu isn't even in the same ballpark -- same CITY as those other two. To call her ignorant.... :crazy:


Oh, I was referring to Simba. I hope you have fun in the mountains!


----------



## Gib_laut

Not being able to pet working line dogs? Preferring show line to working line for tracking? 

Are you people sure this person is knowledgeable? I sure hope number of posts doesn't equal knowledgeable.....


----------



## qbchottu

Gib_laut said:


> Hit the books? Last I checked the knowledge people are the ones out actually working the dogs and seeing those traits displayed. The ones that read books and make assumptions off them are the ones that is all bark and no bite :thumbup:


You must be quite young as you have very concrete thinking. A problem I sometimes have with my pediatric patients! They tend to take everything quite literally as they have not yet developed the faculties to understand complex verbal communications. That line was a play on words - excuse me - I sometimes forget my audience when I get on a roll. 

What that means is that when you have gone out and gotten a good comprehensive idea of the breed, you will stop trumpeting about how one is better than the other. You will learn to recognize the value in each, and perhaps even learn a few things along the way. Good luck to you!


----------



## RocketDog

Gib_laut said:


> Not being able to pet working line dogs? Preferring show line to working line for tracking?
> 
> Are you people sure this person is knowledgeable? I sure hope number of posts doesn't equal knowledgeable.....


Hi Blitzkrieg.


----------



## qbchottu

Anyway - I have pups to look after and dogs to work. Hope there are some out there that can appreciate the information contained herein. 

Rocketdog, Sunflowers, Courtney, MrsP, and glowingtoadfly - thanks for making it enjoyable! 

Note to Steve and GibLaut: 
Being able to _pet_ a dog is different than _handling_ a dog. Read carefully about my evaluation of the two lines in the show ring and you will hopefully recognize the intent of the message. _Handling_ a dog means examining the dog, stacking the dog, touching the dog in sensitive areas (teeth, testicles, ears, feet), and being able to withstand a stranger handling the dog for the entirety of the show. Many working dogs have a problem with this as they are so attached to their handler, some have greater suspicion and aggression, and possess such drive, they tend to have trouble with the requirements of the show ring. My working dogs love hugs, pets, kisses, and affection from others - but that is not _handling_ a dog. Please refer back to understand the difference.


----------



## Steve Strom

Wait, I'm still trying to take advantage of a forum asset. How exactly does trialing your showline vs your working line match up? All 3 phases please.


----------



## Steve Strom

qbchottu said:


> Anyway - I have pups to look after and dogs to work. Hope there are some out there that can appreciate the information contained herein.
> 
> Rocketdog, Sunflowers, Courtney, MrsP, and glowingtoadfly - thanks for making it enjoyable!
> 
> Note to Steve and GibLaut:
> Being able to _pet_ a dog is different than _handling_ a dog. Read carefully about my evaluation of the two lines in the show ring and you will hopefully recognize the intent of the message. _Handling_ a dog means examining the dog, stacking the dog, touching the dog in sensitive areas (teeth, testicles, ears, feet), and being able to withstand a stranger handling the dog for the entirety of the show. Many working dogs have a problem with this as they are so attached to their handler and have such drive, they tend to have trouble with the requirements of the show ring. My working dogs love hugs, pets, kisses, and affection from others - but that is not _handling_ a dog. Please refer back to understand the difference.


 You can check his teeth and fondle his pieces all day. I've probably got at least as much conformation experience as you, if not more. Save the condescending for someone else.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Sorry folks was at IPO training all day missed all the fun. You know getting out more...LOL.

First off I dont know why the usual SL defenders are on here getting their undergarments all bent out of shape. 
SLs are what they are, my opinion of them does not come from internet video..though that is usually a sad experience, but actually training with the dogs on the field.
I know what most of their handlers have to put into getting them titled and what type of effort is required from the handler and helper. 

They are what they are genetic outliers aside, I cant say I care all that much what yall want to believe.

@GBchottu
This dog captured my interest because his performance was atypical of most SLs not to mention his obvious success on the trial field. He displays an intensity not often seen by SLs in the work and he appears confident in his work. Obviously training has contributed greatly to his success.

Your last post was in the spirit of answering the thread and was informative, its to bad you felt the need to indulge in the previous pointless nonsense.

Unfortunately seeing a dog on youtube does not tell you if he is pure GSL, ASL or even WL no matter how much of an expert you claim to be.

So when you *GOOGLE* the dog you get to find out all sorts of handy info like whether or not he is a mix. Yes I realize this proves my unsurpassed ignorance. Maybe as time goes on I will be able to watch a clip of a dog and the pedigree will come to me magically.

As for pedigree reading, I am no pedigree expert. Infact I know nothing about SL pedigrees because they are not in general interesting to me. What this has to do with my ability to judge a dog..I dont know..lol. 

If I had known the dogs in the ped I would not have posted this thread.

I train daily for IPO and other stuff but have never been in the conformation ring so you got me beat there .


----------



## Gib_laut

RocketDog said:


> Anyhow, I'm off to Montana, where base camp is higher than where most of you live. I'm going mountain climbing and over and up metal mesh staircases and towers to fire lookouts at 7,000' with my weak WGSL.
> 
> Thanks for the great read and thread qbchottu.


Climbing mountains and stair cases doesn't make your show line a strong dog. 

Last I checked that's something any competent dog of any breed should be able to do.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Isn't there an endurance title?


----------



## Steve Strom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Isn't there an endurance title?


 Yeah, the AD.


----------



## RocketDog

Gib_laut said:


> Climbing mountains and stair cases doesn't make your show line a strong dog.
> 
> Last I checked that's something any competent dog of any breed should be able to do.


Ah, but how many can (climb a 50' metal open mesh staircase up to the tower), that is the question, isn't it?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Many...


----------



## RocketDog

Ok. I'll post my video if you post yours. 

Of course you'll have to wait until I get back since there's no service over there really and I'm about to lose it.

Minimum of 40'. Open metal mesh.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Many dogs also get titled... This dog is a trail dog. There are no titles on a mountain.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

As assinine as this discussion is...a dog will go up or down 20 or even 10 foot of open mesh stairway it will do 50 or 100 or 200. It doesnt matter to the dog.
There is no dog that cant walk on a steep trial if the handler is even semi competent barring a physical defect.

Now if you want to show how strong your dog is post video of her biting a decoy on stairs, different surfaces, etc.
Or just biting the decoy..thats a good start. Then open your own thread and post it. 

Back to the topic at hand..


----------



## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> As assinine as this discussion is...a dog will go up or down 20 or even 10 foot of open mesh stairway it will do 50 or 100 or 200. It doesnt matter to the dog.
> There is no dog that cant walk on a steep trial if the handler is even semi competent barring a physical defect.
> 
> Now if you want to show how strong your dog is post video of her biting a decoy on stairs, different surfaces, etc.
> Or just biting the decoy..thats a good start. Then open your own thread and post it.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand..


What bashing certain lines? Threads like this always turn into personal attacks. People choose lines that are suitable for them and their lifestyle. GSD's in general are strong, beautiful dogs and last time I checked no matter what line they are from they are still GSD's.


----------



## Castlemaid

llombardo said:


> What bashing certain lines? Threads like this always turn into personal attacks. People choose lines that are suitable for them and their lifestyle. GSD's in general are strong, beautiful dogs and last time I checked no matter what line they are from they are still GSD's.


Thank you!!! NOBODY here needs to defend their dog, and the attacks here on people's dogs are completely uncalled for! 

*THIS IS A PUBLIC WARNING TO STOP the baiting and personal attacks. 


ADMIN*


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

When people come on here and try to pick fights for their dogs who were NEVER the topic of discussion they may get asked for some proof. No one indiscriminately attacked any posters dog that I recall. 

No one is bashing certain lines, once again and for the final time THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE. This thread is not about spreading faerie dust, rainbows and fantasies about SLs. 
Its an honest discussion about a dog that happens to be the exception to the general rule. 

We are talking about Griff V Temar, so far we have several statements that this dog is a result of a planned breeding. Thus we can assume that this breeder could and does produce dogs of similar calibre on a consistent basis. Or is that a far out assumption?

Are there any other Temar dogs doing well in IPO? Vids of bite work?


----------



## onyx'girl

planned breeding vs oops litter? I don't get your gist in the wording. Aren't most litters well thought out and planned(hopefully)?
I see SL's(not Temar) from a local kennel that are probably going to do quite well when they make their debut into the IPO trials...the foundation work is solid and the dogs show power and confidence(training/handling play into the decent breeding). I'm really looking forward to seeing how they do.
Where I see them in training, vids posted publicly is highly discouraged. Interpretation and critiques...no point in sharing the training vids, it usually ends badly.


----------



## RocketDog

Who came on here looking to start fights besides your initial disparaging post? And the only one asking for "proof" was me. Post your video of your dog at 40' high on the staircase and I'll post mine. Simple.


----------



## Castlemaid

RocketDog said:


> Who came on here looking to start fights besides your initial disparaging post? And the only one asking for "proof" was me. Post your video of your dog at 40' high on the staircase and I'll post mine. Simple.


Exactly! The title of the thread, the insinuation from an other posters about the intelligence level and knowledge base of other posters, etc . . . and then they act all offended when they are called on it. 

I don't want to lock the thread, there is some good info from knowledgeable people that share facts and information without all the drama and arrogance.


----------



## Steve Strom

Castlemaid said:


> Exactly! The title of the thread, the insinuation from an other posters about the intelligence level and knowledge base of other posters, etc . . . and then they act all offended when they are called on it.
> 
> I don't want to lock the thread, there is some good info from knowledgeable people that share facts and information without all the drama and arrogance.


 I'll apologize, but I asked what I asked sincerely. I was hoping I was going to get a perspective from a hands on "knowledge base". Nothing disparaging about any dogs or poster's intelligence.


----------



## RocketDog

I agree. It's just for SL people, this board can really veer towards a, well, the term I'd like to use is probably frowned on. Let's just say _circle of working people who assume-- and state-- that all SL's are "weak". Oh sure there's a "unicorn" or two. 

Bite work is not the only nor even the most important standard by which to measure a GSD. 

Signing off. Let me know if I need to video. _


----------



## Gib_laut

RocketDog said:


> I agree. It's just for SL people, this board can really veer towards a, well, the term I'd like to use is probably frowned on. Let's just say _circle of working people who assume-- and state-- that all SL's are "weak". Oh sure there's a "unicorn" or two.
> 
> Bite work is not the only nor even the most important standard by which to measure a GSD.
> 
> Signing off. Let me know if I need to video. _


_

A video of your dog climbing stairs proves it's strong good dog? 

Bite work isn't the most important but it does tell a lot about a dog. How does your dog respond when a stranger is yelling and coming at it in a confrontational manner? 

Let me just make an educated guess. You think schutzhund is dumb and your dog isn't titled but you think it's super strong and awesome?_


----------



## RocketDog

No to all of your assumptions.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> I agree. It's just for SL people, this board can really veer towards a, well, the term I'd like to use is probably frowned on. Let's just say _circle of working people who assume-- and state-- that all SL's are "weak". Oh sure there's a "unicorn" or two.
> 
> Bite work is not the only nor even the most important standard by which to measure a GSD.
> 
> Signing off. Let me know if I need to video. _


_

You can tell a lot about a dog by how it bites. Hence why its a part of the original breed eval...a lot more then you can tell by running a dog up some stairs..

Its weird how most of the people who train regularly have similar beliefs..so strange. Must be the water._


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Are there any other Temar dogs doing well in IPO? Vids of bite work?



Yeah because that will go over well LOL I am not a masochist.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Gib_laut said:


> Let me just make an *educated* guess.


There's nothing "educated" about wild conjecture. Since you don't know the person you're addressing and have never met her dog, you'd be making an _assumption._


----------



## RocketDog

But you are constantly saying how weak nerved SL's are. ETA: @blitzkrieg

I'm sure the admin can check IP addresses. So you know, to make sure no one's trolling.


----------



## Steve Strom

RocketDog said:


> No to all of your assumptions.


 For me personally, I put a lot of value on how they'll retrieve something. A good bite means something, but because I put more importance on enjoying my dog, its not the biggest thing.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

onyx'girl said:


> planned breeding vs oops litter? I don't get your gist in the wording. Aren't most litters well thought out and planned(hopefully)?
> I see SL's(not Temar) from a local kennel that are probably going to do quite well when they make their debut into the IPO trials...the foundation work is solid and the dogs show power and confidence(training/handling play into the decent breeding). I'm really looking forward to seeing how they do.
> Where I see them in training, vids posted publicly is highly discouraged. Interpretation and critiques...no point in sharing the training vids, it usually ends badly.


 
No the question was in relation to workability not accidental breeding. Most SL breeders do not focus on that hence my interest in this dog and his breeding.

Careful powerful is a strong word, Griff shows some intensity and confidence..power..maybe. 
A point for all to note, imo if Griff were a working line he would not be talked about much if at all.
Then again I consider dogs like Zico, Asko, Vito etc powerful.

Griff is definitely an exceptional dog for a SL and I am interested in learning more about a program that turns out similar quality.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Yeah because that will go over well LOL I am not a masochist.


I started this thread in recognition of what appears to be a good dog. If there are other temar dogs showing well lets see them. 

I dont care about training/control just what the dog is doing.


----------



## llombardo

Gib_laut said:


> A video of your dog climbing stairs proves it's strong good dog?
> 
> Bite work isn't the most important but it does tell a lot about a dog. How does your dog respond when a stranger is yelling and coming at it in a confrontational manner?
> 
> Let me just make an educated guess. You think schutzhund is dumb and your dog isn't titled but you think it's super strong and awesome?



A simple temperament test will tell you how your dog will do if a stranger comes at you in a confrontational manner. A dog can do bite work and still won't do anything if a stranger approaches. Didn't someone just have a dog do nothing in that very situation and the dog did schutzhund?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> A simple temperament test will tell you how your dog will do if a stranger comes at you in a confrontational manner. A dog can do bite work and still won't do anything if a stranger approaches. Didn't someone just have a dog do nothing in that very situation and the dog did schutzhund?


 
Quick answer..no it wont.


----------



## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Quick answer..no it wont.


Then I guess they wasted their time making such a test that is used by people involved with the breed for many many years....


----------



## Mrs.P

llombardo said:


> A simple temperament test will tell you how your dog will do if a stranger comes at you in a confrontational manner. A dog can do bite work and still won't do anything if a stranger approaches. Didn't someone just have a dog do nothing in that very situation and the dog did schutzhund?



http://youtu.be/OKtvPHkxgoY

Here is Enzo TC guess it shows nothing lol don't even bother watching it doesn't count


----------



## onyx'girl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No the question was in relation to workability not accidental breeding. Most SL breeders do not focus on that hence my interest in this dog and his breeding.
> 
> Careful powerful is a strong word, Griff shows some intensity and confidence..power..maybe.
> A point for all to note, imo if Griff were a working line he would not be talked about much if at all.
> Then again I consider dogs like Zico, Asko, Vito etc powerful.
> 
> Griff is definitely an exceptional dog for a SL and I am interested in learning more about a program that turns out similar quality.


The focus on the SL's I see at training is bringing out/tapping into their power. A couple really do have 'it'(foundation is very strong) some show courage but aren't powerhouses...they will still do well when they trial, because that strong foundation and handling will carry them thru. I commend the breeder for pushing the dogs owners into training/trialing/showing(conformation). The program is strengthened due to breeders enthusiasm for what is bred to really get out and train/show, represent.


----------



## Jax08

llombardo said:


> Didn't someone just have a dog do nothing in that very situation and the dog did schutzhund?


That dog is a about 1.5 years old and doesn't even know how to bark yet. I'm not sure that's a good example to use.


----------



## Steve Strom

Mrs.P said:


> Enzo's TC - YouTube
> 
> Here is Enzo TC guess it shows nothing lol don't even bother watching it doesn't count


 TC ? It looks pretty much like the ATT temperament test. What's TC ?

Looks like a nice dog.


----------



## Sunflowers

Steve Strom said:


> TC ? It looks pretty much like the ATT temperament test. What's TC ?
> 
> Looks like a nice dog.


Temperament Testing

http://www.gsdca.org/events/temperament-testing/74-guidelines-for-clubs-sponsoring-tc-testing


----------



## Steve Strom

Sunflowers said:


> Temperament Testing
> 
> Guidelines for Clubs Sponsoring TC Testing


 Ah, thanks. It is the same. Funny what fails most of the dogs in the ATT, walking over the strange thing on the ground.


----------



## Mrs.P

Steve Strom said:


> Ah, thanks. It is the same. Funny what fails most of the dogs in the ATT, walking over the strange thing on the ground.



The umbrella failed most dogs that day so they didn't get to the tarp and grate thing lol


----------



## ksotto333

RocketDog said:


> Qbchottu is a gem. She has a wealth of knowledge of SL. She is a major asset to this board.


Yes, I also look forward to reading when she has time to post..


----------



## Gib_laut

llombardo said:


> A simple temperament test will tell you how your dog will do if a stranger comes at you in a confrontational manner. A dog can do bite work and still won't do anything if a stranger approaches. Didn't someone just have a dog do nothing in that very situation and the dog did schutzhund?


No it absolutely won't. You realize a dog has to pass the schutzhund temperment test (WAY harder than any temperment test you'll list) before it can even do bite work right? 

The protection phase can tell you a whole lot about a dog based on its body language, bark and bite when real pressure is put on it. It's not the end all of determine how great a shepherd is but it's much better than a stairs climbing contest hahaha


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> No it absolutely won't. You realize a dog has to pass the schutzhund temperment test (WAY harder than any temperment test you'll list) before it can even do bite work right?
> 
> The protection phase can tell you a whole lot about a dog based on its body language, bark and bite when real pressure is put on it. It's not the end all of determine how great a shepherd is but it's much better than a stairs climbing contest hahaha


 Schutzhund temperament test, you mean the BH? Why do you thinks its way harder then an ATT temperament test?


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> Schutzhund temperament test, you mean the BH? Why do you thinks its way harder then an ATT temperament test?


Not sure what att test is. I'm assuming just on lead to different stations to see if dog will react? 

If that's it then I'm not sure of your question? One test you actually need to train to pass. The other you can just pass? Bh has heeling, motion exercises, etc


----------



## llombardo

Steve Strom said:


> Schutzhund temperament test, you mean the BH? Why do you thinks its way harder then an ATT temperament test?


I never even looked at the BH until now. I figure by the time you combine the CGC, TDI, and the temperament test, your almost there


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> Not sure what att test is. I'm assuming just on lead to different stations to see if dog will react?
> 
> If that's it then I'm not sure of your question? One test you actually need to train to pass. The other you can just pass? Bh has heeling, motion exercises, etc


 You've never done a bh?


----------



## Jax08

No. The CGC and TDI are much easier. Much.


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> You've never done a bh?


What? I think you need to re-read my post.


----------



## onyx'girl

TT is a test of the dog. BH is a test of the dog and training.
It isn't that hard to pass if you've trained for it. Or not that hard to fail if the dog isn't cut out for IPO.


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> What? I think you need to re-read my post.


I read it fine. You don't seem to know there are two parts to a bh.


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> I read it fine. You don't seem to know there are two parts to a bh.


I know it fine. I just listed the parts that I assume the other tests don't have. So yes it is harder.


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> I know it fine. I just listed the parts that I assume the other tests don't have. So yes it is harder.


 Did you watch the video link posted of a TC? What in your last BH was tougher? Here's a hint. Think traffic portion.


----------



## llombardo

Steve Strom said:


> Did you watch the video link posted of a TC? What in your last BH was tougher? Here's a hint. Think traffic portion.


The hardest part of the BH for me with my dogs would be any of the off lead stuff. I'm not fond of it and I get real tense and I'm sure they feel it. The meeting of another dog, the jogger, and being out of sight are all on other tests and no problems. Yep the off leash stuff would get us, well me anyway, they would do fine if I wasn't their handler.


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> Did you watch the video link posted of a TC? What in your last BH was tougher? Here's a hint. Think traffic portion.


You think leading a dog around to different stations is as same as the BH? OK to each his own opinion. 

All I know is a dog that has its bh can easily pass that test. I'm not so sure dogs who pass that test could get its bh.


----------



## Steve Strom

llombardo said:


> I never even looked at the BH until now. I figure by the time you combine the CGC, TDI, and the temperament test, your almost there


 Its tough to find video of the traffic portion, most people only video the ob part. The TC posted puts the dog in a lot more situations that test the dogs stability. The BH isn't so structured in that portion. It depends more on the judges experience to determine what he wants to see.


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> You think leading a dog around to different stations is as same as the BH? OK to each his own opinion.
> 
> All I know is a dog that has its bh can easily pass that test. I'm not so sure dogs who pass that test could get its bh.


 Why don't you just put up a banner that you don't know because you haven't done either one.


----------



## llombardo

Gib_laut said:


> You think leading a dog around to different stations is as same as the BH? OK to each his own opinion.
> 
> All I know is a dog that has its bh can easily pass that test. I'm not so sure dogs who pass that test could get its bh.


Not true, when I was taking the test, dogs that were in schutzhund did flunk , I can't say for sure if they had a BH because I don't know when that is given when doing the sport. Lots of them didn't get past the second or third part( greeting a stranger and the rocks), by the time they got to the gun it was over for them and they were listed as aggressive, I know this because the evaluator had a brain fart and asked me how to spell aggressive. I think it was the stress to be honest. There was 1 dog that made it all the way through and reacted to the threat.


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> Why don't you just put up a banner that you don't know because you haven't done either one.


Just because I disagree with you I haven't done it? Haha OK


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Ill be running a BH in Sept on my current dog. I have seen different judges run the temperment portion different ways. Last one that I was at, dogs were passed that should have failed but hey its club level. 

Anyways just about every dog I currently train with SL, WL and off breed will pass the confrontational stranger test. They will make an impressive show for you to applaud. Its when they actually have to engage the decoy that the truth is revealed. 
Bitework tells you more then any other test about the dogs nerve in my opinion.

There are many dogs that at first look bite well but when you watch them bite under pressure or in different environments the truth is always revealed.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

onyx'girl said:


> The focus on the SL's I see at training is bringing out/tapping into their power. A couple really do have 'it'(foundation is very strong) some show courage but aren't powerhouses...they will still do well when they trial, because that strong foundation and handling will carry them thru. I commend the breeder for pushing the dogs owners into training/trialing/showing(conformation). The program is strengthened due to breeders enthusiasm for what is bred to really get out and train/show, represent.


 
Here abouts the main focus is building confidence and drive, fixing grips, desensitizing the dog to IPO pressure etc. 
I like a dog that does not need these things because it comes naturally but thats my preference. Its nice when you can have a dog in the kennel or as a pet for the first year, bring him out and he fires up and engages like he has been doing it for 6 months. Genetics in action.


----------



## Gib_laut

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ill be running a BH in Sept on my current dog. I have seen different judges run the temperment portion different ways. Last one that I was at, dogs were passed that should have failed but hey its club level.


Dog at my club broke her down around strangers because there was one in a wheel chair and he went to investigate what that strange thing was. Also messed up sit in motion. Still passed.


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> Just because I disagree with you I haven't done it? Haha OK


 No, you can disagree with me on anything. That's fine. I'd like to hear your experience with them. obedience aside, what in the bh tests the dog so much when compared to the temperament test linked?


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> No, you can disagree with me on anything. That's fine. I'd like to hear your experience with them. obedience aside, what in the bh tests the dog so much when compared to the temperament test linked?


IMO the first portion of the BH is a joke. Very easy if the dog is sound. I barely remember training for it. 

But bh is harder as a whole. It has a whole portion dedicated to obedience. You'd be surprised how many dogs out there cant focus on its handler for 7+ minutes. Focus, certain amount of drive, impulse control is part of temperment.


----------



## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> IMO the first portion of the BH is a joke. Very easy if the dog is sound. I barely remember training for it.
> 
> But bh is harder as a whole. It has a whole portion dedicated to obedience. You'd be surprised how many dogs out there cant focus on its handler for 7+ minutes. Focus, certain amount of drive, impulse control is part of temperment.


 Nevermind the obedience. The Temperament test is very specifically NO OBEDIENCE. Compare the traffic portion. What in the world is so much tougher?


----------



## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> Nevermind the obedience. The Temperament test is very specifically NO OBEDIENCE. Compare the traffic portion. What in the world is so much tougher?


Ah I understand your confusion. ****personal attack** When I said the schutzhund temperment test I meant the bh as a whole. 

Like I said, the temperment portion of the bh is a joke. 

But there's a reason why the bh is used for schutzhund and the TC is not.


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## Steve Strom

Gib_laut said:


> Ah I understand your confusion.********** When I said the schutzhund temperment test I meant the bh as a whole.
> 
> Like I said, the temperment portion of the bh is a joke.
> 
> But there's a reason why the bh is used for schutzhund and the TC is not.


I could possibly be ******, but you said the first portion is a joke. That's not the traffic portion.


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## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> I could possibly be *****, but you said the first portion is a joke. That's not the traffic portion.


You're right. Gotta pass obedience first. 

Point proven. I've never done it. Don't even own a dog.


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## Steve Strom

My only point was you shouldn't be so dismissive of it.


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## Gib_laut

Steve Strom said:


> My only point was you shouldn't be so dismissive of it.


The only point I was dismissive of was that the TC or whatever test is NOT even close to testing a dogs nerves like bite work.


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## carmspack

Jax08 said:


> That dog is a about 1.5 years old and doesn't even know how to bark yet. I'm not sure that's a good example to use.


yeah , I didn't think it was the best example either . On first approach by stranger the dog looks away . On second the dog is on his hind feet far too friendly with stranger . Gun fire okay. Man with rake grunting dog should have been a little more forward , some reaction. Then dog turns and team walks to next stranger who is standing still , but the dog gets excited and too friendly.

Important to have all correct breed characteristics.


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## carmspack

quote blitzkrieg " Its nice when you can have a dog in the kennel or as a pet for the first year, bring him out and he fires up and engages like he has been doing it for 6 months."

If only that were the reality. He fires up like he has been doing it for 6 months ---- because in many cases he HAS been , or more .
There is such a push and rush to get young pups out and into the program you don't even know what the natural dog is - just the conditioning.
Table training thread with the very young dogs being amped up as an example , proving what ?


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> yeah , I didn't think it was the best example either . On first approach by stranger the dog looks away . On second the dog is on his hind feet far too friendly with stranger . Gun fire okay. Man with rake grunting dog should have been a little more forward , some reaction. Then dog turns and team walks to next stranger who is standing still , but the dog gets excited and too friendly.
> 
> Important to have all correct breed characteristics.


I think she was referring to me using the dog that is in schutzhund and didn't protect it's owner when the drunk guy got in the car.


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## carmspack

this video clip provided by mrs P ?

http://youtu.be/OKtvPHkxgoY

Here is Enzo TC guess it shows nothing lol don't even bother watching it doesn't count


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> quote blitzkrieg " Its nice when you can have a dog in the kennel or as a pet for the first year, bring him out and he fires up and engages like he has been doing it for 6 months."
> 
> If only that were the reality. He fires up like he has been doing it for 6 months ---- because in many cases he HAS been , or more .
> There is such a push and rush to get young pups out and into the program you don't even know what the natural dog is - just the conditioning.
> Table training thread with the very young dogs being amped up as an example , proving what ?


Personally my second pup will be let sit for a year aside from a few sessions to see what he has in the tank.

I assumed that vid was a promo to sell the breeding not something they bother doing regularly.


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> this video clip provided by mrs P ?
> 
> http://youtu.be/OKtvPHkxgoY
> 
> Here is Enzo TC guess it shows nothing lol don't even bother watching it doesn't count


No it wasn't this. Someone said something about a dog that does schutzhund and reacting to a threat(along those lines ) and I used the dog that was in schutzhund and didn't do anything when a drunk guy got in the owners car(another thread) as an example of how it didn't work for that person.


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## carmspack

my comments , however , were about the dog in the temperament test .


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## Mrs.P

carmspack said:


> this video clip provided by mrs P ?
> 
> http://youtu.be/OKtvPHkxgoY
> 
> Here is Enzo TC guess it shows nothing lol don't even bother watching it doesn't count



No not that but thanks for the critique didn't notice the first part interesting! and he knows Sandy and she shouldn't have been standing there - at the end


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## carmspack

then the problem with the temperament test is that it is universal and not breed specific . GSD should not make friendly advances like that . Saw this at a major National conformation show -- a gsd running up and going all licky face with the judge , who turns and says for all to hear "and they say we have temperament problems" where everyone giggled. Well , yeah , you do . That is not correct . Little anxiety in that .


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> then the problem with the temperament test is that it is universal and not breed specific . GSD should not make friendly advances like that . Saw this at a major National conformation show -- a gsd running up and going all licky face with the judge , who turns and says for all to hear "and they say we have temperament problems" where everyone giggled. Well , yeah , you do . That is not correct . Little anxiety in that .


The one I took was breed specific. Temperament Testing


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## Mrs.P

carmspack said:


> then the problem with the temperament test is that it is universal and not breed specific . GSD should not make friendly advances like that . Saw this at a major National conformation show -- a gsd running up and going all licky face with the judge , who turns and says for all to hear "and they say we have temperament problems" where everyone giggled. Well , yeah , you do . That is not correct . Little anxiety in that .



This one was given by the GSDCA. It is as breed specific as it can be I guess ?


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## llombardo

Mrs.P said:


> This one was given by the GSDCA. It is as breed specific as it can be I guess ?


Yes breed specific. Like I said in another post, dogs flunked at this point because of aggression. Mine didn't get as excited like yours did though They should be approachable.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Yes the kennel clubs know all about what makes for a good GSD....


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## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> No it wasn't this. Someone said something about a dog that does schutzhund and reacting to a threat(along those lines ) and I used the dog that was in schutzhund and didn't do anything when a drunk guy got in the owners car(another thread) as an example of how it didn't work for that person.


 
There are plenty of dogs that do IPO that couldnt fight their way out of a wet paperbag. Schutzhund does not a dog make.


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## volcano

The last I read there is nothing in the standard about gaiting in a ring or doing a stack- so who cares??? Thats for some show dogs, not German shepherds. You obviously like dog shows, but a GSD isnt a showdog, its a working dog.


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## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes the kennel clubs know all about what makes for a good GSD....


You have an answer for everything? There is a standard for the breed and the test is based on what that standard is. I don't care how a dog bites a sleeve. I do care that my dogs did not back down and advanced toward the threat during this test. I don't foresee someone coming at me with a sleeve on, but it's very possible that someone can come at me screaming with a stick. I'm very comfortable knowing that my dogs did react and strongly. I know my dogs are solid and confident, I don't need them to bite a sleeve for someone to tell me that. I'm not at all interested in the sport, but I respect some that are and others not so much. Why? My female was evaluated and passed. They didn't think she would pass because they determined she was a showline. They were pleasantly surprised and we were invited to join the group. I walked away and never looked back. I proved my point and moved on.


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## Gib_laut

llombardo said:


> You have an answer for everything? There is a standard for the breed and the test is based on what that standard is. I don't care how a dog bites a sleeve. I do care that my dogs did not back down and advanced toward the threat during this test. I don't foresee someone coming at me with a sleeve on, but it's very possible that someone can come at me screaming with a stick. I'm very comfortable knowing that my dogs did react and strongly. I know my dogs are solid and confident, I don't need them to bite a sleeve for someone to tell me that. I'm not at all interested in the sport, but I respect some that are and others not do much.


I'm confused. You took the same test as the video posted in this thread? 

At the end when the guy knocked things over and started grunting and banging that rake on the ground, what is the appropriate action of the dog supposed to be?


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## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> You have an answer for everything? There is a standard for the breed and the test is based on what that standard is. I don't care how a dog bites a sleeve. I do care that my dogs did not back down and advanced toward the threat during this test. I don't foresee someone coming at me with a sleeve on, but it's very possible that someone can come at me screaming with a stick. I'm very comfortable knowing that my dogs did react and strongly. I know my dogs are solid and confident, I don't need them to bite a sleeve for someone to tell me that. I'm not at all interested in the sport, but I respect some that are and others not so much. Why? My female was evaluated and passed. They didn't think she would pass because they determined she was a showline. They were pleasantly surprised and we were invited to join the group. I walked away and never looked back. I proved my point and moved on.


Go work your dog or at least watch some dogs work..you may learn a thing or two. It has nothing to do with sport...


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## carmspack

I hope , but wouldn't count on it , that show line breeders try to get out of the mess they are in. Mess based on the numerous terrible sch h / ipo tapes showing the bite work of high- level competition both domestic and foreign (Europe) .

Find the breeders that have a program -- Olympus Olympus Shepherds - About Us

was one . 

I am told TeMar is one . 

The other day reviewed a pedigree that is very interesting . Show lines - but the rare minimal Canto -- 3-2 on Fanto Hirschel who is more on Quanto and Mutz . Fanto's dam brings in Veit Busecker Schloss . 
Rest of pedigree brings in some older Kirschental herding, Ajax Dexel (Ex Pari) , Vello x Bella (Aro Worringer Reitweg) essentially same combination as Bernd Lierberg, even Marko Cellerland.

There is some potential here .


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## cliffson1

Yes Carmen, that would be a nice Showline pedigree.


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> I hope , but wouldn't count on it , that show line breeders try to get out of the mess they are in. Mess based on the numerous terrible sch h / ipo tapes showing the bite work of high- level competition both domestic and foreign (Europe) .
> 
> Find the breeders that have a program -- Olympus Olympus Shepherds - About Us
> 
> was one .
> 
> I am told TeMar is one .
> 
> The other day reviewed a pedigree that is very interesting . Show lines - but the rare minimal Canto -- 3-2 on Fanto Hirschel who is more on Quanto and Mutz . Fanto's dam brings in Veit Busecker Schloss .
> Rest of pedigree brings in some older Kirschental herding, Ajax Dexel (Ex Pari) , Vello x Bella (Aro Worringer Reitweg) essentially same combination as Bernd Lierberg, even Marko Cellerland.
> 
> There is some potential here .


More dogs in the direction of Griff and I might find myself with one at some point. One thing I have noticed is a lack of is strong SL females around here. There have been a few males that were half decent but I have yet to see one female that was even average. One would think a strong SL female would be worth her weight in gold. Hence my interest in Griff.


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## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Go work your dog or at least watch some dogs work..you may learn a thing or two. It has nothing to do with sport...


You don't get it. I walked away because of the people. I honestly tried to even go to a second club to "watch" and they made me feel very beneath them. Very condescending people, not people that I want to associate with, therefore don't want to be around. It's sad because I was kind of interested and both my dogs are "candidates".


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## llombardo

Gib_laut said:


> I'm confused. You took the same test as the video posted in this thread?
> 
> At the end when the guy knocked things over and started grunting and banging that rake on the ground, what is the appropriate action of the dog supposed to be?


Hold their ground or advance on subject. No shying away or avoidance. My crazy guy came at us from behind a car with a large stick screaming crazy stuff, swinging the stick.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Thats fine Im still confused as to how you believe a kennel club run TT does anything more then fuel fantasy. Most people that speak with such sureness on their dogs ability to engage and fight a man have done some form of protection work. Worked their dog and been on the field a few times...


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## qbchottu

volcano said:


> The last I read there is nothing in the standard about gaiting in a ring or doing a stack- so who cares??? Thats for some show dogs, not German shepherds. You obviously like dog shows, but a GSD isnt a showdog, its a working dog.


"To reach this goal, the breed Standard of the German Shepherd Dog was determined, with _reference both to the bodily construction_ as well as to the essential nature and character traits." 

German Shepherds » SV Standard

Perhaps you should revisit the standard?


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## onyx'girl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here abouts the main focus is building confidence and drive, fixing grips, desensitizing the dog to IPO pressure etc.
> I like a dog that does not need these things because it comes naturally but thats my preference. Its nice when you can have a dog in the kennel or as a pet for the first year, bring him out and he fires up and engages like he has been doing it for 6 months. Genetics in action.


Capping drive, control work, blind search intensity and a strong long-sustained hold and bark.....control and endurance is usually done thru conditioning in the training. A dog brought onto the field at a yr old may engage no problem, but then working on the above is where the training comes in.


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> then the problem with the temperament test is that it is universal and not breed specific . GSD should not make friendly advances like that . Saw this at a major National conformation show -- a gsd running up and going all licky face with the judge , who turns and says for all to hear "and they say we have temperament problems" where everyone giggled. Well , yeah , you do . That is not correct . Little anxiety in that .


The American Temperament Test version takes breed and training into account. Its looking for something completely different from a sheltie then it is from a Shepherd or a Shepherd with any amount of training.


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## Blitzkrieg1

onyx'girl said:


> Capping drive, control work, blind search intensity and a strong long-sustained hold and bark.....control and endurance is usually done thru conditioning in the training. A dog brought onto the field at a yr old may engage no problem, but then working on the above is where the training comes in.


That comment was in relation to the SL dogs we train with. You can work control and all the rest when you have drive and confidence. If you dont have those pre requisites naturally you gotta do your best to build them from the ground up.


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## Blitzkrieg1

qbchottu said:


> "To reach this goal, the breed Standard of the German Shepherd Dog was determined, with _reference both to the bodily construction_ as well as to the essential nature and character traits."
> 
> German Shepherds » SV Standard
> 
> Perhaps you should revisit the standard?


The standard or its interpretation allows for the fallacy we see in the breed today. So perhaps the standard should be revisited.. If it cant work its useless as broodstock in any capacity. However, thats a whole other discussion.


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## carmspack

quote "Capping drive, control work, blind search intensity and a strong long-sustained hold and bark.....control and endurance is usually done thru conditioning in the training."

I'll disagree with this . Capping or the inability thereof is within the nature of the dog , the genetics, which go to thresholds . 
Control through the obedience portion goes to the desire and ability of the dog to be guidable , to work as a member of a team - something that should have been selected for in the breeding decisions , genetics at work. 
Intensity in the hunt search , genetic, the intensity in the bark and hold , genetic , the fight drive . 

Basics should be present waiting to be tapped . Training isn't creating these things or inserting them . Training is fine tuning and making useful to our needs.

The shepherds tested their stock for the genetic obedience and natural aptitude and attraction to herding and then let them be , let them grow and mature . They were taken to the field as apprentices watching the older dogs at work. Maybe they were let out and allowed to work out a simple problem just to get a taste for the work .

You can't stick a dog out into a kennel for a year and then get started. During that year or longer you need to have the dog well socialized and well bonded to you . Give the dog some time and room to explore and become a thinking dog instead of this hemmed in pattern program.


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## Blanketback

I think people misunderstand what "The Standard" is. I can't remember which breed it is off the top of my head, but the dogs that have floppy ears aren't considered to be of that breed, even though they're purebred dogs, so to speak - from sire and dam of that breed, and with erect ears obviously, lol. I know what you're saying, Blitzkrieg: you'd be happy with a GSD as long as it has working ability. But many others wouldn't be happy with a GSD that had round protruding eyes, flopping ears, a wooly coat, you name it. Obviously I'm exaggerating, lol.


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## onyx'girl

> originally posted by *Carmspack :*
> 
> quote "Capping drive, control work, blind search intensity and a strong long-sustained hold and bark.....control and endurance is usually done thru conditioning in the training."
> 
> I'll disagree with this . Capping or the inability thereof is within the nature of the dog , the genetics, which go to thresholds .
> Control through the obedience portion goes to the desire and ability of the dog to be guidable , to work as a member of a team - something that should have been selected for in the breeding decisions , genetics at work.
> Intensity in the hunt search , genetic, the intensity in the bark and hold , genetic , the fight drive


I haven't seen a young dog that comes out of the box showing control in every exercise, it does come with conditioning and training. Of course genetics, thresholds play into it all. They don't know the exercises if they've never been taught.


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## carmspack

they don't need to know the exercises , they need to know how and what the world is , how to live with and be decent canine members of a family. The control should not be difficult when you have a dog that has a desire to work with you . --- see genetic obedience.

Training and fine tuning are a little different than conditioning .


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## carmspack

Cliff and others . Here is the show line male that was of interest to me . I believe this pedigree would have been useful to working and show line breeders . V Konrad von den zwei Loewen 

got permission to use copy of information I had sent to the person who introduced me to Konrad by way of the request to look in to a pedigree . By copying here it saves me a lot of time -- 

"I actually quite like Konrad .
Beautiful structure . More like the dogs of the Dingo v h Gero era . Balanced. His work report seems quite good. 
A friend and I used to play 'what if' games.
What if the WGSL's had gone with Quanto , (instead of Canto) used Mutz and Marko , would the WGSL's be significantly different. It is my belief that this would be the case . I think Canto and the inbreeding on him spoiled things forever.
Quanto was a strong dog and did produce sound working dogs. 
In the late 70's I saw quite a few Quanto progeny , sons of Lasso div al Sole , alta Quercia dogs .
Konrad does bring in Kai Silberbrand (Marko / herding ) and the old Kirschental herding genetics. (through Rikkor) 
Fanto Hirschel -- I believe was appreciated for good strong character. I am not talking about the crazy reactive stuff -- just good dependable serviceability. Not specialized , versatility.
Fanto had movement that could match Dingo Gero . Produced good hips . Produced good character and temperament . Was able to put this stamp on two or three generations past his immediate appearance in a pedigree.

　When you look at the pedigree of Fanto you see the Quanto / Mutz combination .
Ex Pari is a litter mate of Enno Pari -- which I have deliberately salted in some pedigrees. Enno is on quite a few "hard" working dogs . This is going to some "old" blood.
Through Donix Busecker Schloss you have two touches to Faust Busecker Schloss , man , that's good . Faust's sire Onyx Forellenbach is a source for super tracking dogs.
Faust was one of the dogs shot in WW 2 and from that day on breeder Alfred Hahn of Busecker Schloss dedicated his efforts to try to replicate this great dog. This also contributes to old working herding lines. Faust bred to a female with burg Fasanental , very old , (Norbert v Burg Fasanental).
Hahn was a "master breeder" . It would serve to study his pedigrees to understand the intellectual side of planning . 
All this on Jenny v Grosen Sand , paternal grand mother of Fanto Hirschel.
Veus Ecclesia Nova , brings Mike Stalhammer son of pivotal dog for Hahn , Valet Busecker Schloss. 
Still working within the Konrad portion of the pedigree , you also have connections to old herding lines . Eiko Kirschental , "gone over to the showlines" (and I saw him) does have Xitta Kirschental as his mother and if you follow her mother line she goes to Isa whose sire is the great Eros Busecker Schloss , which brings in Bernd Lierberg and the Wurtemburg herding dogs , and Zita Kirschental going back to consolidate the old Kirschental.
OLD Kirschental was the real deal .
*added material *
Todays Kirschental is marketing OR looking at it with a positive approach , Kirschental is one of the breeders that "may" have show lines that can work -- a lot of the old shepherds said he sold out -- they are trial dogs -- now . Study the Isa pedigree. 
Nimi Kirchental with her great dam , was probably the point where there was a sell out . 
I don't like Asslan Klammle at all. A Canto son. I would say typical of Canto temperament. I saw him . Close contact . Dog somehow got loose during a specialty show and everyone suspended the show (I was handling that day) to catch him . He just ran and ran and ran . 
Part of the attraction and buzz was people talking about how much the guy had spent for the dog ! Later to go select champion. He could move .
Asslan's best litter was the N litter (Nimi) Kirschental.

I don't know why Fuller would go to Asslan ???

Through Qualle Wattenscheid you go back to Knolle vd Hain. OLD herding .
Claudius Hain part of the "wurtemberger" herding stock -- the other being Junker Nassau.
If my friend and breeding partner , Ruth , who had my Carmspack dogs as her foundation, and who liked to bring in some show (for her purposes) AS LONG AS IT WORKED and was sound , approached me and asked would I agree to bring in Konrad to the lines I would say YES. 
I would go to him directly. Of course that can't be done . But I would not be adverse to the idea at all."

I believe Trienzbachtal has had a good reputation in show line dogs with the ability to do good work.


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## carmspack

the discussion that came up about letting the dog mature till a year or so leads to information best posted on the rethinking eary socialization thread -- will post something on there later.

One problem with starting young pups in "conditioning" is that a promising pup that responds well and learns the tricks quickly gets pushed and sharpened up to earn those high scores . Can work against you !


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well now, here's something I agree with you 150% on.

Good post. :thumbup:




RocketDog said:


> Qbchottu is a gem. She has a wealth of knowledge of SL. She is a major asset to this board.


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## cliffson1

Carmen, you know I don't believe in show lines and working lines per se......having said that, that is a really nice dog by genotype and phenotype. I love the mixture of lines that comprise this dog. Good solid stock with known producers of temperament, nerve, structure, without backmassing on structure or weak nerves. Very nice !


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## lhczth

carmspack said:


> I believe Trienzbachtal has had a good reputation in show line dogs with the ability to do good work.


 Yes, this is also what I have heard and actually have seen myself. Not any Trienzbachtal dogs themselves, but dogs going back on their lines.


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## Storm695

Do you guys have tips for a begging breeder


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## Blitzkrieg1

Blanketback said:


> I think people misunderstand what "The Standard" is. I can't remember which breed it is off the top of my head, but the dogs that have floppy ears aren't considered to be of that breed, even though they're purebred dogs, so to speak - from sire and dam of that breed, and with erect ears obviously, lol. I know what you're saying, Blitzkrieg: you'd be happy with a GSD as long as it has working ability. But many others wouldn't be happy with a GSD that had round protruding eyes, flopping ears, a wooly coat, you name it. Obviously I'm exaggerating, lol.


 
I get what your saying Im a visual person too. However, I think the working program the Dutch have proves this to be untrue. Look at what happened when they started using a standard and Kennel club with the Mals and Dutchies notably FCI.
FCI dogs began to have regular issues surrounding workability and nerve while KNPV lines maintained their workability (still does). The breeders with FCI reg dogs often had to go back to the KNPV dogs to revitalize and refresh the workability. They would then fudge the peds to maintain the breed purity and so the pups could be reg.
I find that very informative on how useful standards are.


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## DaniFani

Storm695 said:


> Do you guys have tips for a begging breeder


Don't beg, it's rude. ;-)


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## Storm695

thanks


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## Vandal

> believe Trienzbachtal has had a good reputation in show line dogs with the ability to do good work.


 Yes, I have heard and worked dogs from this kennel. Told the breeder was rather ruthless about culling dogs who didn't have "it"

On another note, people simply amuse the heck out of me in how they change their opinions about training, age etc.

As for those old lines in that show dog Carmen posted. My first SchH 3 dog had those lines up close in the pedigree. Very compliant, hard, serious and tough dog. Linebred on Valet with Ajax, Bodo, within the first four generations. 

Best female show line I have worked in the somewhat recent past, (within the last ten years), was Viva vom Mittlewest. She was in training with a paid trainer who was in a huge rush and wasn't really the most talented handler but she endured all of it very well. Strong fight drive, just a good dog period. She was black and tan, not the desired red, so don't know how much she was used for breeding.


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## Liesje

I think Viva's half brother Flint was also very good, when it comes to show lines with respectable temperament and performance on the field.


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## Smithie86

lhczth said:


> Yes, this is also what I have heard and actually have seen myself. Not any Trienzbachtal dogs themselves, but dogs going back on their lines.


Yes 

Person I knew decided to get out of GSDs in total years ago. Had an incredible Cim vom Ecknachtal daughter that she was getting rid of. V rated at USCA Sieger show, SCH2.

V1 Cim vom Ecknachtal

Did a breeding to Linda Lundborg's Zank v. Trienzbachtal ; was a 3-3 on Cello.

SCH1: 98 in protection. Strange field, working judge and working helper, high heat and humidity, OB and Prot done at night, in dark, with lights :hug:

Another SL dog that produced good working ability. Quartz dei Templari. Randy Tyson had a son, Xasko vd Roten Matter. I watched her train, title, show and koer this dog. Strong work ethic and he produced it, as well. But, Randy also trained with the expectation of good work; not good work for a SL GSD.


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## carmspack

"Do you guys have tips for a begging breeder"
Don't buy Western Union?

ever heard of group-think ? saw the dynamics of this about some high ranking KNPV dog , whose DAM and sire were KNPV 2 and 1 , himself a KNPV met lof and producer of police dogs and with young progeny showing ability of high ranking KNPV dogs . And he has a low ZW , and he is a warm and social , stable dog.
the group think is - the dog is not "pure" working lines . He has one out of 8 lines in the third generation which as show . 
Missed opportunity . 

so Blitzkrieg , did I see somewhere that you have a deposit on an new pup?


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