# Herding children. How much is okay?



## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

We have an 8 month old intact dog from American show lines. He has a wonderful temperament, and is already an amazing nanny to our children. On a scale of 1-10, I'd guesstimate his drive at around a 3-4. He is extremely tolerant, and has never shown an ounce of aggression to any _human_ I've seen him meet (dogs are another story).

But since the day we got him 2+ months ago, he likes to herd children. It's a game. One of our sons (he's 8) in particular likes to get the dog fired up and chasing him around the house or yard. At some point, often times, the dog will end up "gripping" him, by putting his teeth on my son's forearm. He's never broken the skin, and seems genuinely surprised when he gets a negative reaction from my son. The first few times this has happened to the kids they were pretty startled and upset (naturally) and the teeth aren't pleasant (I've felt them on my ankle once or twice). But the kids (especially the 8 year old) still love to play herding, and recover quicker now when Rico grips. 

So my question:

To what extent should this behaviour be tolerated or surpressed? Should we try to train this out of him? Can he be taught to grip a little more softly? Should we just try to calm down the game, before resuming, when this happens? Find him a herd of real sheep? 

I don't think this behaviour would lead to any kind of real aggression (and I don't consider it aggressive), but Rico is our first GSD, and first large breed, so I thought I'd ask all you veterans. I grew up with a Sheltie, so I'm personally very tolerant of herding behaviour from dogs, but I don't want to be _too _tolerant.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Rico's Daddy said:


> So my question:
> 
> To what extent should this behaviour be tolerated or surpressed? Should we try to train this out of him? Can he be taught to grip a little more softly? Should we just try to calm down the game, before resuming, when this happens? Find him a herd of real sheep?


My dogs herded my kids around the whole time they were little. That being said they were never allowed to use their mouths to do it. They had to bump the kid with their nose to get them going in the right direction. I had an Akita that was especially good at this. This big old 100 +lb dog would nose the kid just hard enough to get her moving away from the fence but not knocking her down in the process. It was a site to see.  My current GSD never quite learned the art of doing it without knocking you down. He pushes hard and if your not careful your going down. However no mouthing allowed. I don't allow licking either. :nono: they lick their own behinds and do other gross things and I just don't want those germs on me or the kids. ewww.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Train the 8 year old and the dog will follow along.  Seriously...that's where my focus would be. 

Because when the 8 year old has friends over and they all start doing it, free for all! I try to train not for what I like and tolerate, but what other people find acceptable. I use a word or phrase to redirect, which is "kissy-kiss" so that they either do a touch or a lick instead of the mouth. But I really like to teach that inhibition. Teaching Bite Inhibition - Whole Dog Journal Article

Shelties! I think I have a mix here. He talks when he herds. And he mouths a lot...is that a thing with them?


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Our sheltie barked constantly when she was "herding". She also liked to nip ankles if you weren't going the "right" direction. 

Thanks for the input.

I will check out the link on biting inhibition. I wonder what the best way is to retrain the grip into something else that won't horrify visiting children (that's an excellent point)?


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Jean, thanks for the link. That was very helpful. He has a _fairly_ soft mouth now, but needs to control it a little better, as scraping teeth can scratch. And it can definitely be a little softer. I will also work with the kids on this, especially not screaming and running when it happens, as this just makes for a better game for the dog. 

The prudence of softening the bite, instead of trying to eliminate it completely, also makes sense.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Rico's Daddy said:


> But since the day we got him 2+ months ago, he likes to herd children. It's a game. *One of our sons (he's 8) in particular likes to get the dog fired up and chasing him around the house or yard. At some point, often times, the dog will end up "gripping" him, by putting his teeth on my son's forearm.* He's never broken the skin, and seems genuinely surprised when he gets a negative reaction from my son. The first few times this has happened to the kids they were pretty startled and upset (naturally) and the teeth aren't pleasant (I've felt them on my ankle once or twice). But the kids (especially the 8 year old) still love to play herding, and recover quicker now when Rico grips.


I don't have children but the first thing that comes to mind is what happens when you have other children over and they run off saying "the dog bit me". We all know that "mouthing" or grabbing isn't necessarily a "bite" but other people could take it the wrong way. That would be my concern. 
When I come home from work and go say hello to the dogs they usually get excited (to put it mildly) and Kiya will often grab me with her mouth, I could see someone claiming it was a bite.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I agree with Jean for the most part as far as training for what is acceptable with other people, especially when it comes to using their mouths. None of my dogs are allowed to put their mouths on any human, ever. Even in play. Mainly for the exact reason that Kiya mentioned about a little kid running off talking about how your dog "bit" them. I know my dogs aren't biting when they mouth me when we're playing but the second that Sasha greeted our neighbor a couple of years ago by trying to grab her arm in her mouth (same way we used to play) when our neighbor went to pet her, all mouthing was stopped immediately. Also, when it comes to children, it doesn't take much to escalate the energy level and trigger over excitement in a young dog. 

I'd find a real outlet for his desire to herd and then get your kids involved in different ways with the dogs. Just my opinion.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Rafi is a herder and so was Kai. The way I taught Rafi not to grab (people or other dogs) was to encourage him to pick up a toy when he got excited. So now he will bump you with his nose but his mouth is full (with a ball, usually) so there's no chance of an over-excited nip.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I was told never, ever to let the dog chase my kids. This could get dangerous really quickly, and prey drive should be directed toward toys, not people. 
I have a 1-year-old nephew who visits often, and other kids, too, so teaching the dog that it is OK to herd kids would be a disaster here.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

That's good advice from all, especially since we do have friends over, and everyone loves to play with the dog.

I would love to have him tested for herding instinct, but not sure how much time and money we could devote to that. So here is what makes sense to me now, so the kids and dog can have fun, but without destroying the dogs instincts or frightening visiting children.

1. Find another way for Rico to work his "sheep." I'd like some advice on that one.

2. Get him to soften that bite a bit for when/if he does use his mouth (the article Jean linked had some great suggestions).

3. Eventually, I'd love to see what he could do with actual sheep. Even when our kids aren't playing with him, and just with each other, if he's out in the yard, he will diligently watch over them, like a teacher at recess. aranoid:

Like I said, he has a fairly soft mouth, but he isn't afraid to use it. The most serious incident we had was when he tried to "rescue" my 12 year old daughter. The kids were playing (not with him) some weird game that had her wrapped up tight in a blanket, lying on the couch, screaming. Rico apparently thought she was in trouble, so he gripped her calf and started to pull her to "safety." This of course hurt, and got my daughter screaming for real, which only reinforced in Rico's mind the danger she was in, so of course he pulled more earnestly. My wife didn't realize at first what was happening (since our daughter had just been play screaming), but when she saw what was happening, made a successful intervention. 

My daughter (who has a special bond with this dog) was pretty shaken, but when we all got calmed down (she wasn't really hurt) and explained to her what happened, everything was good, and we haven't had a repeat performance.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> Rafi is a herder and so was Kai. The way I taught Rafi not to grab (people or other dogs) was to encourage him to pick up a toy when he got excited. So now he will bump you with his nose but his mouth is full (with a ball, usually) so there's no chance of an over-excited nip.


Ruth, that's a good idea.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I was told never, ever to let the dog chase my kids. This could get dangerous really quickly, and prey drive should be directed toward toys, not people.
> I have a 1-year-old nephew who visits often, and other kids, too, so teaching the dog that it is OK to herd kids would be a disaster here.


 
I can certainly understand that line of reasoning, but I'm not so concerned with our situation. Our kids love to play like this, they initiate the play (he doesn't just take off after them), and he is naturally a mellow, low(ish) drive dog. And as I said, I grew up with a sheltie, so I'm used to that kind of herding behavior. We just need to keep it from getting out of hand.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would not call that herding . Chase, prey . Any dog will do it , whether it is a cat, other dog , or kid.

Focus on the son and give him another game he can play that puts him in charge and not the "victim" . Ball fetch . The dog gets the run , the thrill of the chase and has to come back to your son who is in control whether the game continues or not , and sets the rules to how the dog has to behave before the ball is thrown (manners).

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Well, considering the breed, it probably is herding.

My sheltie used to do it all the time. He'd nip at ankles or tug at clothing if you weren't going the "right" way. Gabe has just started as well. He herds the cats into the kitchen. Then, when you go into the kitchen, there are two angry cats in there.

Mealtimes are getting dangerous.

Well, you aren't going to be able to get the herding desire out of him, but I do like the previous suggestion of teaching him to pick up a ball or other toy so that his mouth is full, and he can't use it to herd.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Having raised working Aussies for years, herding is the use of the dog's entire body to change the course of another animal. The use of a mouth could be a disqualification, therefore never encouraged. Using the mouth on a flank, head, etc, would be considered aggression towards the animal and not herding. 

I think it's Stosh here that could jump in , it's been a long time ago for me......


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I was told never to allow your dog to herd people. Ever.

We went swimming with Dakota a few years ago, and she would circle around the group when we were in the water in an attempt to herd us towards shore. No barking, no mouthing, just swimming around the group. I told this story to my behaviourist (general conversation one day) and she said that was totally unacceptable behaviour and I must never allow that again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no, never mind the breed thing. People that herd for a living don't test their animal on the chase skills. They look to see if the pup, as early as 12 weeks, has the courage and will to control a sheep . The testing and selection for herding is actually very sophisticated , including taking directions from handler, self control, control under chaos , determination. When sheep are being moved it would be sheer disaster for the dog to engage in a prey-chase.
What was described was prey -- a cocker spaniel would do it, a leonberger, a mix .


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Having raised working Aussies for years, herding is the use of the dog's entire body to change the course of another animal. The use of a mouth could be a disqualification, therefore never encouraged. Using the mouth on a flank, head, etc, would be considered aggression towards the animal and not herding.
> 
> I think it's Stosh here that could jump in , it's been a long time ago for me......


 
That's interesting (and I considered putting this thread in the herding folder). I read recently that in herding trials in Europe, they are much more accepting of gripping, and consider it an appropriate method of control in some instances (on _sheep_, obviously). The article thought the US was unnecessarily averse to it. 

I don't pretend to know anything about it personally, just what I read, as a sidenote.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> no, never mind the breed thing. People that herd for a living don't test their animal on the chase skills. They look to see if the pup, as early as 12 weeks, has the courage and will to control a sheep . The testing and selection for herding is actually very sophisticated , including taking directions from handler, self control, control under chaos , determination. When sheep are being moved it would be sheer disaster for the dog to engage in a prey-chase.
> What was described was prey -- a cocker spaniel would do it, a leonberger, a mix .


This is what I was thinking too but you said it better  Most dogs will chase something that runs and squeals... herding is a whole different instinct.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

carmspack said:


> no, never mind the breed thing. People that herd for a living don't test their animal on the chase skills. They look to see if the pup, as early as 12 weeks, has the courage and will to control a sheep . The testing and selection for herding is actually very sophisticated , including taking directions from handler, self control, control under chaos , determination. When sheep are being moved it would be sheer disaster for the dog to engage in a prey-chase.
> What was described was prey -- a cocker spaniel would do it, a leonberger, a mix .


I'm not suggesting that my dog is particularly _skilled _at it. Nor am I suggesting that I have the same eye for talent that a real shepherd would. What I am suggesting- having observed other untrained herding dogs try to herd- is that it looks to me that my dog is sometimes _trying_ to herd, particularly when he's trying to keep the kids in the yard. I think that it's a fun game for all involved, but I also want to ensure they can have fun without things getting out of control. 

That's all.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It will be fun until someone gets hurt and you are sued. Or someone calls AC.

Encouraging prey drive directed toward kids in a powerful breed like a GSD, in my opinion, is playing with some serious fire.

I have no idea how to allow this to continue while still keeping control of this. Maybe more experienced people on this board can chime in.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Some of you would _seriously_ never let a dog run around with a child?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Rico's Daddy said:


> Some of you would _seriously_ never let a dog run around with a child?


What I wouldn't allow is the child being the object of play. It's one thing to run around with the dog but it's a whole different game once the child becomes the object being chased. Especially once the pup starts using his teeth to play with the children.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

My kids run around with Hans, but the chasing is channeled toward balls, frisbees and other toys. 

He doesn't get petted unless he sits nicely. The moment he jumps, my kids turn their backs on him. Every single time. My kids are his owners, not his littermates or toys. 

They help feed him, and when he gets older they will help train him and do agility classes. 

I am doing everything I can to encourage his good-natured, calm side. Jumping and chasing any members of the family is not tolerated because it is bad manners and will spill over onto others who will definitely not appreciate him doing this to them.

When he is full grown he will be an 80 pound bruiser with more force in his jaws than I can imagine. A nip, even accidental, can cause an injury. Not taking chances with that.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Unfortunately *too many *people come here because thier dog bit some one, even if it was an accident. A lot of people can see potential problems because of certain behaviors. Control is an ultimate must. 
As the saying goes "its all fun and games until someone gets hurt". Unfortunately the dog is most likely the one to suffer the the ultimate hurt with possibily its life.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Exactly...and the pup we're discussing is 8 mos old which is too old to be biting kids, IMO. I wouldn't say the dog is herding but rather getting excited and nipping while chasing the prey. And there's nothing more natural than a kid and it's dog to be running and chasing and playing but the nipping really should stop. Stosh is a talented herder and has never nipped or gripped a sheep, and while gripping is allowed and sometimes needed in herding dogs, it's a tool to be used when the dog and the handler know when it's necessary. A lot of dogs do it when they first start herding because of their prey drive but that's a big difference from using it while they're working.

If you want to go for a herding instinct test, go to the AKC website [akc.org] and search your tests in your area. It'll also give you a list of clubs that you can contact. It's a great sport!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I do hobby herding with one of my dogs, and it is a fact of life that they will put their mouth on a sheep at some point. Excessive gripping is frowned on, and if it gets out of hand a dog will be DQ'd. But a little grip here and there is no big deal.

However, that being said, I see a huge difference between a well trained herding dog grabbing some wool every now and then and an untrained dog running around after children and grabbing skin. It doesn't matter how instinctive the behavior is, or whether or not the teeth break the skin. It should never be encouraged. At all. Chasing after children is not an appropriate outlet for "herding instinct". 

Look at it this way, it takes time and effort to train a dog to herd. You don't just turn them loose in a field and let nature take over. You train and refine the behavior. An untrained dog "instinctively" chasing and gripping sheep is not a good thing. So why would an untrained dog "instinctively" chasing and gripping children be a good thing? Neither scenario is herding. 

OP, your own children might consider it a game. But as has already been pointed out, you are opening yourself up to all sorts of heartache (emotional AND legal) if some other child comes onto your property and doesn't see it as a game. The dog is always the loser in those situations.

Herding with my dog has been the greatest activity in every sense. If you think your dog has some talent for it, I urge you to find a trainer and have fun with your dog! You won't be sorry, and herding lessons are no more expensive than obedience classes (at least, in my experience). No more chasing children, though!  
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Stosh is correct, the AKC has herding information available and would be a good resource.

The American Herding Breeds Association is another good resource. This is the venue that I use, simply because it is the most easily accessible here in Idaho. The link is:
AHBA

Good luck! But be warned...herding is addictive.
Sheilah


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Thank you all for the feedback. I appreciate it, and I definitely agree that the gripping has to stop, and we've been working on that. There were some good suggestions here towards that end.

Thanks as well for the links on herding info. I would like to at least expose Rico to it someday.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

You might tell the kids that when the instant the dog puts its' mouth on them to immediately freeze, cross their arms and look up at the sky. That will stop all the excitement and let the pup know that it's not allowed, but playing will continue as long as he keeps his teeth to himself.

Do check into herding, there's no other feeling like it. It's so cool to see your dog doing something so instinctive and to be able to work as a partner with him is very rewarding.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Thanks, Stosh. I'll do that. We've been telling them to say "no," stop, and turn their back. It's gotten better, but sometimes he (and the kids) get carried away.


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

I have 2 kids (ages 4 and 10) and they also love to play the "chase me" game with our 7mo puppy. I have a zero tolerance policy for any mouthing, so game ends when that happens. Its hard to find games that work well with kids and puppies. But as far as the chase game, I have my kids run around with a large bath towel and the puppy then goes after that vs. mouthing the kids.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

No need to go out and buy some sheep! American Treibball Association

I do not know much about it - at all - just that it exists. There may be some posts in the forum under misc dog sports. 

I like the idea of teaching the kids to throw the ball for fetch, have the dog sit before the toss, play 2 or 3 ball to keep things moving (and it tires the dog more quickly), the kids doing FUN obedience with him, and having the kids understand that until he has more training and you can work on his self control (ever increasing long downs can help with that) you do not want to set him up to fail by having running, squirming bite sleeves.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Dakota and Jean,

Thanks for the suggestions. Those are excellent. And Jean, thanks as well for the link. I'll check it out.

It looks like the AKC is doing an instinct test about 2 hours north of us this Fall. I might talk the boss into going.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Rico's Daddy said:


> Dakota and Jean,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. Those are excellent. And Jean, thanks as well for the link. I'll check it out.
> 
> It looks like the AKC is doing an instinct test about 2 hours north of us this Fall. I might talk the boss into going.


Yes, check it out!

This is my boy last fall seeing the sheep for the first time behind the fence. Once he got over the "oh my gosh, oh my gosh, they move" he did good. Not his career path but it was fun and gave me chills to see his instincts kick in once he realized he could make them move with slight movement on his part.


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## Rico's Daddy (May 8, 2012)

Courtney,

That sounds awesome, and I am definitely going to have to make this a priority this Fall.


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