# Need advice re: protein levels



## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm trying to do better by my five month old rescued pup than I did by my dear, sweet 13yr old gsd that I just lost three weeks ago. He was raised on Iams his whole life. Thought I was doing great by him; have recently learned that I was feeding him expensive *cheap* food. :shocked:. After lots of research that has really just left me more confused, I brought home Blue Wilderness lg breed adult because the calcium/pho was in the rec. levels I had read about. I didn't realize until after I fed the pup some; that the protein is much higher than what I had seen recommended for pups. Will too much protein cause as much problems as too much calcium? Would LOVE some suggestions. Thought I had settled on innova lg breed pup till I discovered who owns it. The more I read, the more confused I get!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Protein isn't really the problem. It's the amount of calcium that should be 0.7 - 1.2%

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

For protein, I would make sure the primary protein is coming from meat rather than corn or grains. I feel the type of protein is important. While dogs can live on plant proteins, as an omnivore, they do better on protein from meat.


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## LindaDwyer (Apr 9, 2012)

Ever think of feeding raw? Raw is what I feed. That way you control all they eat and know exactly whats in it.

If you would like to try raw and need some suggestions on how to go about it feel free to email me, 

[email protected]


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm not sure I could do raw, partly due to cost; but also because my life tends to get crazy at times.
My concern with the 36% protein in the food I bought is that it might cause a quicker weight gain; which would also be detrimental to a growing pup. Am I correct in thinking that? Would I just feed less of that food? What are some good foods for large breed pups that are made by trustworthy companies? Or am I placing too much emphasis on the company I choose?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Weight gain is based on calories, not protein. Protein builds muscles. To much calcium can cause problems with his bones and that is what you need to watch. 

I feed RAW but as far as I know Blue Wilderness is a good food. Look at the percentage of calcuim that is per cup.

Do NOT feed Taste of the Wild to puppies. They have a new puppy food out but I don't know anything about that.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I fed Innova large breed when mine was a pup, started feeding raw around 8 months but still fed kibble on some days. I did end up switching my kibble to Acana grainfree. But he did fine on Innova when he was a puppy.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Innova is still on my list. Wilderness is 1.0% min calcium/.9% min pho, 36% protein, 414 cal per cup. It states that it meets requirements for maintenance. Do I need one that meets requirements for all life stages instead? Sorry for so many questions; justa little confused!!
What is the approximate cost/time requirements for raw feeding?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You need to know the Maximum calcium. It should not be over 1.2% Contact Blue Buffalo and ask them.

BLUE Wilderness Large Breed is a High Protein, Low Carb Dog Food

The protein is higher because the first three ingredients are meat, 2 of them meals so they are more concentrated. Potato starch doesn't thrill me. 5th ingredient is peas, more protein.

You could save yourself some confusion and just buy a Large Breed Puppy food. Blue Buffalo also makes one of those.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> You need to know the Maximum calcium. It should not be over 1.2% Contact Blue Buffalo and ask them.


Good luck getting a straight answer from Blue Buffalo about the MAX calcium in their foods.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Good luck getting a straight answer from Blue Buffalo about the MAX calcium in their foods.


Well, that's not good. So what foods would you recommend to him instead of BB since you are both in Texas?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> Well, that's not good. So what foods would you recommend to him instead of BB since you are both in Texas?


If he can get the info from Blue, feed it and more power to him. I just know there have been a lot of complaints on this forum about people writing to Blue Buffalo and asking for that information and getting evasive answers, or no answer at all. 

My pup ate Precise Foundation during his first year of life. It's an all life stages food with appropriate calcium/phosphorus levels, and it's made in Texas of USA ingredients and has never had a recall. It has the added benefit of being $39.99 for a 40lb bag at my local store.  Rocky still eats it, but Kopper now eats a high-calorie, high-protein food for canine athletes.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Good luck getting a straight answer from Blue Buffalo about the MAX calcium in their foods.


 
I fed BB Wilderness for months before figuring out I needed to be aware of the pho/cal levels. I spent quite a bit of time attempting to get the information and apparently it is top secret classified.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/145562-blue-buffalo-what-they-hiding.html


I fed Innova when mine were pups. A quality local cost effective food is Victor. It's been a while since I've done any cal/pho checking but back when I was, I found a number of companys that while it wasn't posted (max) on their labels were happy to provide the information that I requested. Of the ones I contacted Blue Buffalo was the only one that would not reveal their levels which that in itself was enough to make me think they were out of range. I have not used them since. Mine are now on raw in the a.m. and Earthborn in the pm, though I periodically change kibble brand. If you're interested in raw check out Texastripe.com


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Emoore said:


> If he can get the info from Blue, feed it and more power to him. I just know there have been a lot of complaints on this forum about people writing to Blue Buffalo and asking for that information and getting evasive answers, or no answer at all.
> 
> My pup ate Precise Foundation during his first year of life. It's an all life stages food with appropriate calcium/phosphorus levels, and it's made in Texas of USA ingredients and has never had a recall. It has the added benefit of being $39.99 for a 40lb bag at my local store.  Rocky still eats it, but Kopper now eats a high-calorie, high-protein food for canine athletes.


And there you go, OP. I would look for this food. Emily doesn't feed bad food to her dogs.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Thank you everyone!! This has been so helpful. I don't understand why companies have to make it so hard! Just print the min and max percentages on the bag so people don't have to guess or make a bajillion phone calls/emails lol. I will check out the Precise... I think I saw it the other day when I was food hunting. By the way, I'm a girl...:blush:


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

And btw WELCOME!  We'd love to see pictures!


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Either of the Taste of the Wild Puppy formulas are perfectly fine for a large breed puppy. The Pacific Stream puppy contains 1.3% calcium _as fed_ and the High Prairie Puppy contains 1.4% calcium _as fed_.

Most foods list calcium as a minimum amount, but the as fed number is significantly higher. The only knock against Taste of the Wild is that it is manufactured (under contract) by Diamond. If that bothers you, then it is the only reason I can think of not to consider Taste of the Wild Puppy for your pup, or the regular Taste of the Wild formulas for an adult dog.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Well, he is currently on a Costco food produced by Diamond; but he has not had firm stools in the two weeks I've had him. It's been diarrhea almost every day. He's been checked for worms; so I'm assuming it's his food. We didn't expect to get him, so the food choice was a last minute "oh my gosh, we've got to get food!" decision. Or, it could be his Nutro treats. What are some good treats to use for training? BTW, I LOVe this site!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rarrington said:


> Well, he is currently on a Costco food produced by Diamond; but he has not had firm stools in the two weeks I've had him. It's been diarrhea almost every day.


I had that problem with every Diamond food I tried.

Good treats to use for training are hot dogs or cheese sticks. Cut them into pieces smaller than your thumbnail; I can usually get 40-50 treats out of one hot dog, and 20-30 treats out of a cheese stick. I've also been known to use leftover meat from whatever I ate for dinner the night before. I haven't bought actual training treats in years.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Awesome! Hot dogs will be super easy and cost effective. He also loves carrots; but probably not enough to work for! 
I can't wait to get him off this food. Thinking of making the switch all at once, since he has diarrhea anyway.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Try some canned pumpkin while you're switching to firm up his stools a bit.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

There is a difference between something like a Costco food which is, I assume, a generic labled Diamond formula food and foods like Taste of the Wild, Canidae and others, that while manufactured by Diamond, are not Diamond formula foods. Taste of the Wild, Canidae and others are not owned by Diamond and do not use Diamond formulas. Their foods are manufactured by Diamond using the ingredients and processes specified by the companies who contract Diamond as a manufacturer. So just because your dog doesn't do well on Diamond labled or formulated foods it doesn't necessarily mean they won't do well on better foods like TotW or Canidae that are manufactured by Diamond.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> There is a difference between something like a Costco food which is, I assume, a generic labled Diamond formula food and foods like Taste of the Wild, Canidae and others, that while manufactured by Diamond, are not Diamond formula foods. Taste of the Wild, Canidae and others are not owned by Diamond and do not use Diamond formulas. Their foods are manufactured by Diamond using the ingredients and processes specified by the companies who contract Diamond as a manufacturer. So just because your dog doesn't do well on Diamond labled or formulated foods it doesn't necessarily mean they won't do well on better foods like TotW or Canidae that are manufactured by Diamond.


The problem I had with every food manufactured by Diamond, including TOTW, was batch consistency. The food was not consistent enough batch-to-batch and my dogs had diarrhea with every new bag. It's not the formula; it's the manufacturing standards.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Rarrington said:


> Well, he is currently on a Costco food produced by Diamond; but he has not had firm stools in the two weeks I've had him. It's been diarrhea almost every day. He's been checked for worms; so I'm assuming it's his food. We didn't expect to get him, so the food choice was a last minute "oh my gosh, we've got to get food!" decision. Or, it could be his Nutro treats. What are some good treats to use for training? BTW, I LOVe this site!


What was he on at the breeder's? And how quickly did you make the switch? And how much are you feeding?

This is not to argue that you shouldn't switch, but *most* of the time bad stools are from a too rapid switch and/or overfeeding. I find that feeding about 10%-15% _less_ than the bag recommendations works best. You might add a TBL of plain canned pumpkin to his food for a while. I also give a TBL of plain non fat greek yogurt with meals to both of my dogs to aid digestion.

For training I like to buy either Hebrew National 97% fat free all beef hot dogs or a version of the same from Trader Joes. I cut them into pea size pieces so a package lasts me a week of daily training sessions plus 2 classes. I also will boil a chicken breast with 1 clove of garlic- left whole- in the water until done, dice up the chicken into bite sized pieces, and then bake at 325 for 15min. I like training treats to be stinky and soft- don't want a dog/puppy having to crunch in training, risking inhaling bits or dropping pieces that later become a distraction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Emoore said:


> The problem I had with every food manufactured by Diamond, including TOTW, was batch consistency. The food was not consistent enough batch-to-batch and my dogs had diarrhea with every new bag. It's not the formula; it's the manufacturing standards.


Same problem here. Looked different, smelled different, some bags the dogs would eat and others they wouldn't touch.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Well, I know overfeeding is not the problem because I can hardly get the little guy to eat. Finally halfway through the day when he is starving, he will finally eat. I think he is eating between half and seventy-five percent of the rec amount. I have no idea what he was eating before I got him as he was a shelter pup, so I was totally prepared for tummy upset. However after a week of fortiflora and then yogurt after that, he still has loose stools. Going to try to pick up some Precise today and some canned pumpkin and see if I can get him straightened out. I really appreciate all the suggestions and help!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

You've had him to the vet to check for intestinal parasites, giardia, and coccidia? 

I have had one dog with sensitive tummy issues and found that Nature's Variety Instinct served him quite well. I have a $5 coupon for NV so if you are interested in that I could send it to you- it is in an e-mail and also has instructions on how to "join" so you can get more coupons.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

GrammaD said:


> You've had him to the vet to check for intestinal parasites, giardia, and coccidia?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I know you mentioned he had been check for worms and in that fecal they more than likely looked for coccidia (but be aware they won't show up unless they are sluffing off). They don't normally check for giardia unless everything else is negative and there is still an issue. I would request a snap giardia test (this is a different test than worms/coccidia).
> ...


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Same problem here. Looked different, smelled different, some bags the dogs would eat and others they wouldn't touch.


And here I've had no problems. Have fed as many as 3 dogs TOTW since 2009. Never any food refusal nor poop problems with any of them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BlackGSD said:


> And here I've had no problems. Have fed as many as 3 dogs TOTW since 2009. Never any food refusal nor poop problems with any of them.


Different manufacturing plants, maybe? A friend of mine had the same issue with her dog refusing to eat any variety of it.


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## LindaDwyer (Apr 9, 2012)

*raw vs commercial*

raw food is much cheaper. Figure $3 a pound for commercial, you can buy chicken for under a dollar a pound. More time consuming but better for them, no added chemicals and preservatives. I do organ meat also and dehydrate kidneys, hearts and throats for treats. I give a vitamin, a probiotic, honest kitchen for fruits and veggies and also use missing link, sprinkle about a spoonful in with or on the food, its supplies all the vitamins and minerals they don't get in the food. Also give a fish oil pill a day for a nice coat and healthy heart.

When I grind the chicken I do bones and all as they need the bone meal for solid poop. if its still soft with the raw food add a little powered bone meal.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

By the time you buy the meat, supplements, electricity for the freezer and add in your time, RAW is not really cheaper. I don't pay more than $1/lb for any meat and still average the same as a good quality kibble. You can buy decent kibble for roughly $1.50 - $2.00/lb.


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## LindaDwyer (Apr 9, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> By the time you buy the meat, supplements, electricity for the freezer and add in your time, RAW is not really cheaper. I don't pay more than $1/lb for any meat and still average the same as a good quality kibble. You can buy decent kibble for roughly $1.50 - $2.00/lb.


Everyone has their own opinion of raw vs commercial. For me it isn't about the money I want what I consider best for my dog


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LindaDwyer said:


> Everyone has their own opinion of raw vs commercial. For me it isn't about the money I want what I consider best for my dog


Well...obviously it's not about the money, or convenience, for me either as I said it costs me about the same. I was simply pointing out that it is NOT any less expensive than a good quality dog food. To imply it costs a great deal less is simply not true.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LindaDwyer said:


> Everyone has their own opinion of raw vs commercial. For me it isn't about the money I want what I consider best for my dog


That's fine, everyone has to do what they believe is right for their own dog, but you yourself said:


LindaDwyer said:


> raw food is much cheaper.


I hear it a lot from raw feeders and more often than not, it just isn't true. I already own a freezer and I ran a spreadsheet on costs from my local supplier. It would cost me more than double to feed raw. If you believe in raw and want to feed it, more power to you, but I don't know why people always say it's cheaper? Cheaper than Orijen, maybe, but then again so are low-clarity diamonds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Per pound of meat, it is cheaper and if that is all you feed without any supplements then it would be cheaper. However, when you start adding vitamins, fruits, veges, Honest Kitchen then it's no where near less expensive. 

I haven't run a spreadsheet in a while but I do know that I"m not saving any money.

btw, Emily...heard back from Blue Buffalo...blah blah blah...no reference to the maximum calcium that I asked only that they slow the growth of large breed puppies by restricting calories.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> btw, Emily...heard back from Blue Buffalo...blah blah blah...no reference to the maximum calcium that I asked only that they slow the growth of large breed puppies by restricting calories.


 
They kept telling me the % on the bag was the maximum. I'm like umm, you might want to read your own label as it clearly states minimum %! For them to be so tight lipped the max % much be off the charts!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> They kept telling me the % on the bag was the maximum. I'm like umm, you might want to read your own label as it clearly states minimum %! For them to be so tight lipped the max % much be off the charts!


Either that or the formula varies so much that they have no idea.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My puppy came to me with Fromm Large Breed PUppy Gold and I have been very happy with it. I was concerned about the mix of proteins and several grains but I got him at 14 weeks and I think he would have already been sensitized to allergens by then. Well, he has had zero allergy problems and has been very healthy without even having any worms...and I am not a big chemical person. I do supplement with fish oil, vitamin E, and glycoflex 4000. I mention because several others feed it as well.


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## JeepHound (Mar 14, 2012)

I have my 5 month old on BB Wilderness (adult)

Came across this site the other day:
Calcium & Phosphorous Requirements for Dogs

According to the article:
"However, there are no studies that show that these low calcium foods result in less hip dysplasia in large breed dogs than a normal well-balanced puppy food. While feeding a special formula large breed puppy food to your puppy is not bad, there are no concrete studies that show it is better than a balanced puppy food formulated for all puppies."

It goes on to say:
"Problems with calcium and phosphorous rarely occur anymore due to the easily available commercial pet foods that are properly balanced. When problems arise, it is when owners feed a homemade diet or over-supplement, especially with young, rapidly growing puppies. There are no studies that show that the new large breed puppy foods reduce the incidence of skeletal problems, but they appear to provide adequate nutrition, and over time, they may be shown to be beneficial."

I interpret that to mean that any quality dog food is going to be fine.


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## Rarrington (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone! Still researching. Maybe I will pick a food before he's grown!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Be sure to read the links on the sticky http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/feeding-our-puppy/163201-feeding-puppies.html
Lots of good info.


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