# Thoughts on Red Rock breeder in Gap, Pa.



## ShilohGSD (Oct 31, 2011)

I have been researching breeders and think I have settled on Red Rock, located in Gap, Pa. Any thoughts, feedback, etc?

Thank you!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

What caused you to decide on that kennel?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Link?


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## ShilohGSD (Oct 31, 2011)

Iniatially,a friend of a friend recommended them, so they were one of many on my list to check out. My phone conversation full of the usual, and many questions were answered to the fullest. Health checks, guarantee,training video all included.

Despite the above, I do not see much info on the web regarding reviews of the breeder, etc. The Red Rock web page has the usual info, but not much to go on. The dogs are beautiful, one even being on a magazine cover.


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## ShilohGSD (Oct 31, 2011)

German Shepherd Breeder


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

If this is the one, German Shepherd Breeder I'd pass. No real info, just pics and a statement saying they breed large boned GSDs (ok, why?)
Also, they have on there, a statement that says "Say No to linebreeding". Why? If they have a good reason, then elaborate, teach the ignorant masses...It says on the site that " All of our puppies are from champion German-import working bloodlines "
So are they showlines or working lines? Plus, I think you'd be hard pressed to find imported dogs that aren't linebred. So do they know better than the breeders that they are getting their stock from?
Just very vague, overall, I'd have to see a whole lot more substance in regards to the breeding program.

Oh, and my daughter and I saw that magazine in Petsmart and both said, "Yikes" at the same time. Kind of like most of the calendars you see in the malls, not what most would consider the cream of the crop. The mask is lacking, and the eyes are pretty light.

Also, would love to see a pedigree, somewhere, anywhere. Am I missing them?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

German Shepherd Puppy Breeder

They have whites it looks like, and I can't be sure, but the second one on this page that they are listing as a black and tan female looks more like a diluted liver, not sure about that coloring. Maybe it's actually a patterned sable.


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## Six (Oct 16, 2011)

Based solely off the website and information provided I would personally not purchase a puppy from this breeder.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I am extremely confused by their website since it appears that each individual page that's part of the site has its own domain name. Beyond that, I think the website provides extremely little information - it's all just a bunch of puppy pictures. No real substantial information such as registered names of the dogs, pedigrees, OFA information, or titles they have on their breeding stock. 

Even with the very little amount of information on the site, there is one think that would really raise a red flag for me, and that is their mentioned that their kennel is "licensed and inspected by the PA Department of Agriculture."

On one hand, that's an excellent thing to know because it allows you to look them up on the website of the PA Department of Agriculture since licensed kennels are subject to inspection. On the other hand, that is worrying because kennels are only required to be licensed if they sell so many dogs per year. In PA, the smallest of the kennel licenses is for facilities that sell 26 or more dogs a year. The kennel in question is a K2, which is a license for selling between 51 and 100 dogs per year. Even if you supposed that you've got 8 pups in each litter, that's at least 6 litters each year. Average number of adults on the premises seems to be between 10 and 15 at any given time. I wonder if they actually work any of them or whether they are simply breeding "stock"? That's a lot of dogs, not counting any puppies on the ground.

The kennel DOES have good inspection reports (which is great), however, and is in compliance with all of PA's Department of Agriculture requirements.

One thing to note is that one of the reports mentions "puppies sold retail" - I believe this means that they sell to pet stores if it's included on a kennel report? Does anyone know for 100% whether that is the case or not?

Researching information on the Red Rock kennel outside of PA-specific pages is difficult because there is another kennel called Red Rock located in Georgia. Their website is Home - Red Rock German Shepherds If I am not mistaken, ALL the dogs listed on the OFFA database with the Red Rock name are from this one, not the kennel in PA.

That all said ... just because information ISN'T on a website doesn't mean it isn't out there. ShilohGSD mentioned that s/he has spoken to the kennel on the phone, asked a lot of questions, and gotten some good answers. Maybe if Shiloh could share some of the questions asked and answers given, folks here could provide more information. Did you get any of the registered names of the dogs? That way, people could link pedigrees for you, at least.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

WOW, those pups look way over sized!  Based on their web site, I have to agree with everyone else. PASS!! Looks like a back-yard-breeder to me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Don't be in a hurry and GOOD FOR YOU for doing some research. GSD's are supposed to be specifically bred to be 'large boned' but for some reason the poorer breeders seem to suck in newbies to the breed with that term. So that's an alert for me to look for more. I also don't like pages and pages of cute puppy pictures that are also sure to attract people cause who doesn't love looking at adorable puppies!

Instead I stop looking for breeders specifically until I really read thru Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums in general and http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html specifically. 

THEN go back and judge that breeder and others on what you now know.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Don't be in a hurry and GOOD FOR YOU for doing some research. GSD's are supposed to be specifically bred to be 'large boned'


I think you mean "arent' supposed to be. . ." ?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I am extremely confused by their website since it appears that each individual page that's part of the site has its own domain name


I thought that bizarre, too. 
But more than that, they are breeding for size/color and I bet they charge a lot as they seem to fancy themselves quite a bit 

You'd probably get a pretty pet, but you could get a pretty pet in rescue for less than 1/2 of what this place charges, I'm sure


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This looks like an Amish puppy mill to me. These people do not seem to know anything about the breed, bloodlines, or breeding dogs in general--"Say no to linebreeding"? What kind of statement is that? I would not touch this kennel with a ten foot pole.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ShilohGSD said:


> The dogs are beautiful, one even being on a magazine cover.


I'm sorry, but the dog on that magazine cover is NOT what I would call a "beautiful" GSD. Ugh.

No mention of OFA, breeding goals (other than "big boned"), no pedigree information, the pups look oversize and some have poor pigment, they obviously do not participate in any sport venues, and what's with this white puppy? Are they breeding whites, too? The whole site is very confusing with the different URLs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If I'm not mistaken, a good purebred white ought to have a black nose. That's a really dudley nose for a puppy. 
I agree with freestep, they don't appear to have the slightest clue or goals in their "breeding program" other than to line their pockets :-/


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## ShilohGSD (Oct 31, 2011)

I appreciate all the responses and good information which you all provided me. I have decided to pass on this particular breeder, and continue the research and learning process before deciding on my breeder of choice.

Thank you!
Tony


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Where are you located? Hopefully someone can recommend a reputable breeder near you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Pro - the dogs (pups) look to be in good condition , well fed , clean , social . 
Con, bad web site , confusing information . It says no linebreeding , as everyone has mentioned, then adds champion working import , but their concept of working , how I understand the web site is the SchH title , which does not make it a working line AND "champion" or show lines are heavily linebred and working lines have some linebreeding as do all purebred stock.

when I saw the name Red Rocks I immediately thought 'Oh wow' because in my early days I had brefriended a very knowledgeable breeder who shared my interested in the "Edgetowne dogs" . I believe he has some interest in Fanchon Edgetowne dam to GV Hollamar's Judd Hollamor's Judd

Too many people using the Red Rock kennel name . The dog whose picture I clipped and stuck to my corkboard in the "office" was 1959 Grand Victor RED ROCK's Gino 1959 GV CH (US) Red Rock's Gino - German Shepherd Dog whose sire line is Edgetowne background . 
See how thorough evaluations used to be Red Rock's Gino -- see the difference in expectations on temperament .

Later I went to use Tara Bella's Impressario -- one of those dogs went on to become a certified guide dog .

Clearly neither of the other two Red Rock kennels are the kennels of the 1950's .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

CARMEN, I was going to ask if anyone remembered Red Rocks Gino....I hate you!!!!LOLOLOL


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Emoore said:


> I think you mean "arent' supposed to be. . ." ?


*I did mean AREN'T !!!!!* :wild:

Thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> CARMEN, I was going to ask if anyone remembered Red Rocks Gino....I hate you!!!!LOLOLOL


 
Cliff this just shows that we both have good taste in dogs.
I like to keep the new crop of GSD enthusiasts reminded of what good dogs were like .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Dilly (Oct 31, 2013)

*Our Experience with Danny*

My brothers and I decided to take a trip down to Gap, PA to pick out a new German Shepherd puppy about a year and a half ago. Not doing enough research, we figured that spending $1200 on a pup would ensure a great pedegree and an excellent dog. Danny told us that his dogs are cancer free in their bloodlines, and ensured us that we were going to purchase a perfect dog. 
We got Maggie a year and a half ago, and she was absolutely perfect. Beautiful in every sense of the word. We could not leave the house without getting tons of compliments from everyone that walked past her. 
Last summer, she was diagnosed with Acute Luekemia, and died about a week later. We went to several vets, one a recent Cornell grad, and they all came to the same conclusion: It was nothing that we did, it was just plain bad luck, and that somewhere down the line she had to have been given the gene for it. 
We gave Danny a call to let him know and he appeared very kind and told us that he would give us a new dog, free of charge. About two weeks later, we gave him another call to see when a good time for us to come down and pick out a new pup would be. He told us that we must have exposed Maggie to benzene somewhere down the line, and took his offer off of the table. 
About two months after that, we emailed him explaining that we spent upwards of $4,000 in vet bills to keep her alive and to give her a fighting chance, and that the entire process caused our family so much pain and anguish, and on top of it, he accused US of exposing our dog to harmful chemicals. Danny simply did not respond. 

Someone posted on this forum praising this guy with the name "Zues's Mom". Zues was the name of one of the studs that he used, so I would be cautious of the good things that you may hear from him.


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## MikeW (Jan 3, 2015)

*My review*

_ *** Removed by ADMIN - please PM member for information about their review on this kennel. _


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

I live in Lancaster county, same county as this "kennel" .
My suggestion after looking at the info on this kennel, is look somewhere else.
What do you want to do with your puppy, or would you consider an older dog.
Do you want high energy or a social sofa potatoe.


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