# finding bloodlines without papers



## blackloki (Jan 31, 2017)

So i recently bought a black german shepherd pup for xmas i bought him from a backyard breeder. the parents had gorgeous markings and looked powerful and solid. the guy did not have papers on the dogs and i was wondering possibly through DNA if i can find out where my pups ancestral line comes from so possibly i can get papers on him and restore the line. can anyone give me advice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Theoretically, if the parents were in a DNA database then possible. But, realistically, No.

You can get an ILP number from AKC if you want to do sports. It's for purebreds with no registration. You need to send in pictures, an application and proof of spay/neuter.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is one cute puppy! And looks like he has a great temperament. 

To answer your questions: no, you can't. 

There are two types of DNA tests you may hear people talking about on this forum. 

One is DNA to ascertain paternity: for this, the sire and dam need to be registered dogs with THEIR DNA on file with AKC. Then the pup can be tested to verify that the parents are whom the breeder claims to be. If your pup's parents were not registered, there is no chance of their DNA being on file. 

The other type of DNA testing you may hear about is the testing to see what breeds a mix may be. These tests are not very reliable, and the results are not official. For example, if the test comes back as 100% GSD for your puppy, it won't mean that you can register your pup as a pure bred - you need the paperwork to prove direct lineage back to the original foundation dogs of the breed. 

Your pup looks 100% GSD to me, with or without papers, you got a nice one!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah -- I'm not so certain -- 

" i bought him from a backyard breeder. the parents had gorgeous markings and looked powerful and solid. the guy did not have papers on the dogs and i was wondering possibly through DNA if i can find out where my pups ancestral line comes from so possibly i can get papers on him and restore the line. can anyone give me advice."

by restore the line I take it to mean that you want to perpetuate and breed this dog?

the guy didn't have papers --- how many generations prior to that also did not have papers.


although the temperament , the health , constituition all look great , making for an outstanding pet and companion for the sweet child in the picture -- I can not say that this is a purebred GSD

the head is short and broad . You could put a whole hand between the eyes . The eyes are found. The muzzle is short.

He is a cute pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The puppy looks purebred. Round eyes are not preferred, but they occur in GSDs. As for the rest, well, there are so many varieties of GSDs, that the mixes of the various lines, while pure-bred, may look more American, but have a straighter back, or more German in the ears but slab sided, or longer or shorter in the muzzle. There is nothing in your dog that suggest anything other than GSD. He looks handsome and sweet. Good job. Love him, enjoy him, train him, forget about breeding him. 

Your dog does not have papers. The reasons people get dogs without papers are a few, and all of them should not be bred:

1. The owner of the sire or dam bought their dog on a limited registration (promise not to breed the dog), and they are not honoring their promise. The reason for limited registrations can be because the breeding was a trial -- close in-breeding to see what the sire or dam produces, conformation-wise or health-wise, or both. Or the breeder sold an individual on a limited registration because it had a conformation fault or health problem that should not be bred. Or, the breeder of the dog(s) with limited registration does not want their pup stuck in a puppy farm, in filthy, cramped conditions, bred until dead. 

2: The breeder has no rights to the dog he bred, he could have stolen the dog or withheld a stud fee. 

3. The breeder could be suspended from the AKC, and cannot produce papers for this reason. One can be suspended for a few reasons: faking registration papers, not keeping records properly, failing an inspection or refusing to allow an inspection of the dogs and their conditions -- this is not pristine conditions, this would be having dogs that are matted to the point where they can't walk or see, covered in fecies, living in cages on top of cages where the foul is falling on the dog below, open sores, serious malnourishment, being charged with animal cruelty.

It is not hard to obtain a dog with papers. Without papers, there is no telling what the parentage is on a dog. So you have no way of knowing that you are breeding father to daughter, mother to son, sister to brother. You do not know how many times you are breeding back to the same dog. You do not know what traits each dog brings to the whole picture. You don't know what to breed toward and what to breed away from. You cannot even be certain you have a pure-bred dog. Any puppy mill or back-yard-breeder can obtain dogs with AKC papers if they are not under suspension. And, like it or not, the AKC is a registration organization, they do inspect kennels, but they are limited in how much they can do, and while they will suspend for fraud or anything that undermines the sport of pure-bred dogs, they are also surviving off of the money made by registering dogs, so, it is sometimes against their own interests to suspend privileges. 

The thing is, anyone can get a dog with papers. The reason people sell without papers are mostly the above, and unethical. If they are business and have to claim the receipts as income, they may offer some dogs without papers, and on a cash only, and not claim -- again unethical, cheating the government. 

Whenever we buy a dog from a breeder when papers are not available, we are participating in and rewarding this lack of ethics. 

Don't buy the baloney of an oops litter. I don't believe in them. But if it were so, an unpapered 100% GSD climbed into your bitch's kennel and made wonderful puppies with her, then, because you aren't sure of parentage, they should be sold with a spay/neuter/non-breeding agreement. 

Ok, I have dogs at my place that don't currently have papers and are unaltered. If Oscar climbed a few gates and managed to pry his way into Lassie's kennel, tomorrow, I would register him and if Lassie isn't registered already, I'd register her. You can register them at 2 or 3 years old if they are eligible, no problem. By the time the babies were born, I could register the litter. So, why not? Why sell a dog cheap because they have no papers? Because you can't get them. Or you want it under the table. 

To register a litter it is about $35-$50. Add $65 if it is beyond six months from the whelping date. It is not expensive. Registering a dog costs about the same, but the late fee if the dog is over a year is something like $35 for the first year and a little more for 2 years. I can't remember. Why would you sell an $800 dog for $300 or $200 because you wouldn't pay $100 to register the sire or dam and the litter? Why would you sell a $1500 dog for 3-500$ for lack of $35-50? It's not sense. Unless they are selling a whole lot of dogs and staying on welfare/foodstamps, etc.

You have a nice dog. You didn't know that giving money to people that shouldn't be breeding is encouraging and rewarding the behavior. Now you do know. So, now, if you do that, or if you breed your dog, than you are doing it actively. 

One last thought on this though: The breed itself has a lot of health concerns. Many of these are inheritable conditions. Without knowledge of parentage you simply cannot make good breeding decisions. It is heart-breaking to have someone call you and tell you their dog died. A dog you produced. When that dog is 9-14 years old, you feel bad, and try to comfort the owner as best as you can. When that dog is only 7 or 8 years old, well shtuff happens, if it is an inherited condition that's awful, but you can't prevent everything. 

When a pup needs to be put down because of an inherited condition, a youngster, and everyone is just devastated. And that is all the more likely to happen if you are dealing with critters that are tightly inbred. 

BTW, to get a black dog, the black has to be on both the sire and dam's side, as black is recessive to all others. Sire and dam each give one of their two, to their offspring. So if the dam is black, she is probably black/black and the sire black/black. They like to have 6 generations of only blacks. Because if you breed a black and Tan/Black to a Black/black, you are likely to get so many percent of Black and tans. and a percentage of blacks. So, Black dogs do not just happen. I am not saying they are rare. I am saying that they already have a narrow gene pool. So you have someone willy nilly putting together black dogs, without considering parentage, it isn't a good thing. Please do not be that guy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Another thing for you to watch for. The dog's eyes look round, but they look almost hairless around the rim. If this continues have your vet check for demodex. All puppies have demodex mange mites. It is passed only by the dam while they are lactating. Otherwise it is not contagious. The immune system keeps this in check. With puppies the immune system is immature and sometimes these mites can proliferate and it will cause hair loss, either in spots, or generalized on much of the body. Usually it runs its course, the immune system kicks in and the mites stop dropping your dog's hair off. Not terribly itchy like sarcoptic (red) mange. But secondary infections can create itching. There are products you can use to kill the mites and other products to boost the immune system. 

I am not sure, could be just the camera. But I would watch around the eyes, muzzle and on the fore-legs for any spots. It's not uncommon, especially in puppies.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

still not sure --- head is very round between the ears 

nevertheless a good look d o g for sure . Just gorgeous bone and feet and excellent tone and condition .

please recognize that comments made are not a negative against your dog .

the comments are about the circumstances and the genetic possibilities .

there is one more, a 4th, option to the reasons why both parents don't have papers .
coincidence that neither one has any registration ? 

the guy was a back yard breeder , who went out and bought a pet from one place and another pet from another . Maybe. Probably from antoher back yard breeder . Maybe . Because as you said they could be brother and sister!

the parents likely were not registered . 


black loki you said "the parents had gorgeous markings and looked powerful and solid. "

what markings were they?

as soon as the pictures came up I was reminded of a dog named Wiidget -- the result of an accidental mating of a GSD and a black lab. My friend owned that dog from 6 weeks . Saw it everyday for about 10 years . Solid lovely dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is round between the ears. Mine sometime have that knowledge bump, or will look flatter there. 

Now I need to look up some black dogs and see if that is common in them.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

If they bought on a limited registration and bred anyway. why not register the sire and dam in CKC. Continental not Canadian. At least they would have some papers. Not AKC but that would net a byb a little more cash per Dog. The average dog buyer that would rather have CKC papers than no papers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> If they bought on a limited registration and bred anyway. why not register the sire and dam in CKC. Continental not Canadian. At least they would have some papers. Not AKC but that would net a byb a little more cash per Dog. The average dog buyer that would rather have CKC papers than no papers.


I think that maybe there are a group of people out there that are suggesting that the papers do not make the dog. And they are right, they do not. But I think some have an unhealthy disdain for papers, probably because they have what they feel is a spectacular specimen, that has no papers. So they poo-poo papers. To poo-poo papers, and then offer Continental Kennel Club papers, well that would totally zero out their argument. 

I am sure many do offer other brands of papers. And, there are probably other reasons people wouldn't register with a fake registry to be able to give some manner of papers with the puppies. This one did not seem to offer any.


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