# Breeder question



## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

Hello,

I am new to the boards, and was hoping someone could help me . We have decided to get a German Shepherd puppy for our family. We have done our homework and think this is the best dog for us. We have for the most part decided on a breeder. I wondered if anyone on here has used this breeder or heard anything about them Breeding Oversized, Large German Shepherds. big dogs in the mid-west family. 

They seem very nice to work with, and have answered all of our questions. They get their dogs OFA certified. We are not looking for a show dog just a really good family pet. Any feedback or information would be great. Thanks again


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I would not walk, I would RUN away!!! GSDs are NOT supposed to be that big. Read the AKC standards and get familiar with it first. Then find a reputable breeder who breeds to better the breed, not to make "ponies". :nono:

FYI - the bigger the GSD the more proned to health issues and the shorter lives they can/will have.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> I would not walk, I would RUN away!!! GSDs are NOT supposed to be that big. Read the AKC standards and get familiar with it first. Then find a reputable breeder who breeds to better the breed, not to make "ponies". :nono:
> 
> FYI - the bigger the GSD the more proned to health issues and the shorter lives they can/will have.


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I dont even find those dogs attractive and I know they deal with Sinister's breeder. :thumbsdown:​


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Most of the dogs look mutated


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I dont even find those dogs attractive and I know they deal with Sinister's breeder. :thumbsdown:​


 
If you don't mind me asking, who is sinister?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

rhyno said:


> . We are not looking for a show dog just a really good family pet. Any feedback or information would be great. Thanks again


I'm sure you could find a healthier dog in rescue, if you're fine with just a family pet and not a dog for showing. 

Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone who says "old-fashioned" in reference to huge is showing their ignorance of the breed's history, purpose and beginnings! 

Annette


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

rhyno said:


> If you don't mind me asking, who is sinister?


Sinister is my German Shepherd that I got from a backyard breeder that deals with Royalair.

He is over the standard at 28" at the shoulder and there is already concern about his hips. He was born without a toe nail on his back right paw, he's had 2 bouts with Demodex Mange, he has low/medium drive and is basically a couch potato. 

I love him more than anything but I would never deal with byb's again!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I wouldn't want a dog from there if THEY paid ME! (For all of the reasons already posted and then some!)


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow, I wish I had found this site last night. We thought we had done all of the right things. We looked at several breeders in the area. We did find some reviews on line of the breeder, but all were positive, I hadn't found any negative ones. When we saw that they had their's OFA certified and warrantied them, we went ahead and made a deposit last night for one. We thought that the larger size meant that they would be bigger than the show standard. 

We truly did think that we had done all the right things, we have gotten an acre of yard fenced in, and gotten a 10x 10 heavy duty kennel as well. We thought this would be a great addition to the family. Now I am really concerned/upset that we didn't pick correctly. We even went as far as having someone from our vets office look at the web site, and they thought it looked good.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

How much of a deposit, how much are the puppies? If it is low enough then maybe chalk it up to educational fund and move on. Did you sign a contract regarding the deposit? 
OFA certs are great, but just one small piece of the puzzle. 

Annette


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

bocron said:


> How much of a deposit, how much are the puppies? If it is low enough then maybe chalk it up to educational fund and move on. Did you sign a contract regarding the deposit?
> OFA certs are great, but just one small piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Annette


The puppies are $1300. We gave a $300 deposit. no contract yet, only when you pick it up, but it does say deposits are non refundable.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

rhyno said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am new to the boards, and was hoping someone could help me . We have decided to get a German Shepherd puppy for our family. We have done our homework and think this is the best dog for us. We have for the most part decided on a breeder. I wondered if anyone on here has used this breeder or heard anything about them Breeding Oversized, Large German Shepherds. big dogs in the mid-west family.
> 
> They seem very nice to work with, and have answered all of our questions. They get their dogs OFA certified. We are not looking for a show dog just a really good family pet. Any feedback or information would be great. Thanks again


I wouldn't recommend them. even if you are looking for a companion, they don't have much in the way of prooving their stock having stable and good temperaments true to the breed. 
Temperament is extremely important to me, and while titles on one or both of the parents doesn't guarantee that, it is a step in the right direction. Not even necessarily schH titles. But just some sort of title to prove the dogs are decent.

That aside, they are breeding against the standard. They are steering their breeding program away from German Shepherds.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

rhyno said:


> The puppies are $1300. We gave a $300 deposit. no contract yet, only when you pick it up, but it does say deposits are non refundable.


That price is absolutely ridiculous for an oversized couch potato!

You can buy a quality bred working line GSD pup from a reputable breeder for $1200!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, the dog might make a nice pet for you. Who knows?

It is not the type I would ever consider, but these dogs are bred because some people like the type. 

If you do not want to back out, you may find it works for you. My first GSd did not meet the standard. He had conformational issues too. But, devoted pet he most certainly was. He was free to good home though.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

You did some great ground work and covered the basics. Not sure about the person at the vet's office, but who knows what their level of experience is. 
This is a wealth of info:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

Everyone, thanks again for all of the feedback. I truly do appreciate it. I think what we will do is wait and see, they are letting us come and visit their kennels/farm first. Perhaps if all of their dogs seem to have great temperments and the conditions look really good we will move forward. If not or if we see any red flags we may have to eat the $300.00 and select another breeder. 

As far as size what I had read on line said that the european German Shepherds tend to be larger than over here, and that is what our vet had told us as well. That is why we never even questioned the size.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Your vet and the people in their office are hopelessly ignorant on the breed. DO NOT ask an all breed vet what makes a good breeder for a specific breed! 

The way I figure it you can eat your $300, adopt a great dog, and still be out ahead.

What I find amusing is these people are using "oversized" as a marketing ploy. Are we that much of a "supersize" culture that that is desirable?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

rhyno said:


> The puppies are $1300. We gave a $300 deposit. no contract yet, only when you pick it up, but it does say deposits are non refundable.


Are you serious?!!!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Your vet is WRONG about european dogs being larger. Unfortunately even meeting their dogs at THEIR home isnt enough to give you a TRUE view of their temperament. Most dogs that "fall apart" when in public, are fine at their own home.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

rhyno said:


> As far as size what I had read on line said that the european German Shepherds tend to be larger than over here, and that is what our vet had told us as well. That is why we never even questioned the size.


My male is from West German Showlines and weighs around 67 pounds & 26" at 1.5 yrs old. Compared to American Showlines that I have seen he appears to be filled out more (wider in a sense) but European lines are not "bigger".

Good luck with whatever you decide. Finding a good breeder is sometimes a long process..it was for us but well worth the wait.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Larger size DOES mean bigger than the show standard. But German Shepherds are NOT ment to be giant dogs. If someone wants a HUGE dog, they should get a Great Dane or Newfoundland or a similar breed.


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

Woah, didn't know you could breed a GSD to a pony!  I'd look elsewhere.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

American lines are definately bigger than German lines. Europeans have stuck to the standards much stricter than the Americans and most of the GSDs you see in America are actually above the standard. There is a stupid thought of "the bigger my dog the more BA it is."


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Ugh. I looked at as much of that website as I could stand, and had to stop when I felt like throwing up.

So many discrepancies and contradictions in their "breeding goals".

Oversize, overweight, dull-looking dogs, poor pigment, unkempt looking... truly backyard breeding at its finest.  I can't believe that every other sentence is bragging about the "oversize" stature of these dogs, as though that is a GOOD thing.

Please call and ask for your deposit back. Make up an excuse, anything, lie if you have to, but please do not support unethical backyard breeders.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Didn't this breeder come on here once like a year or two ago when another thread like this popped up to defend her breeding program? I know it was one of these "old fashioned straight back" type breeders, I just forgot which one.

Regardless, this is not the type of breeding that I would support.


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

believe it or not, I found another thread on the same topic. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/103016-anyone-have-dog-royalair.html

Looks like it turned into a simliar conversation back then  I do have to say though, no matter what we decide to do, I thank you all for your opinions and feedback. I also do want to state that I contacted probably a dozen breeders, and the lady at this place was by far the nicest we dealt with.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anytime anyone uses the term "Old Fashioned" when referring to GSDs, it automatically brands them an ignorant BYB in my eyes. People who use it to refer to their oversize, overweight couch potatoes have absolutely no concept of the history and development of the GSD... never in the history of the breed were 100+ lb GSDs the standard or desireable size. Only in America do people seem to think that "bigger is better."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> Well, the dog might make a nice pet for you. Who knows?
> 
> It is not the type I would ever consider, but these dogs are bred because some people like the type.
> 
> If you do not want to back out, you may find it works for you. My first GSd did not meet the standard. He had conformational issues too. But, devoted pet he most certainly was. He was free to good home though.



I agree. If the OP wants a large, docile dog from a breeder that is very nice to him/her...who cares? Would I get one? Absolutely not, but I'm working and training my dogs daily and I've had the best luck with a breeder that is transparent and forthcoming about their dogs' strengths AND weaknesses. I tend to focus more on the DOG I want than how I click with the breeder.

As far as European vs. German size I have no idea why a vet would say that. I've seen a lot of really compact working line dogs lately and many of the SV judges are getting REALLY picky about size for the west German show lines. I rarely see American line dogs so I can't really say they are bigger but most of the European dogs I see on a weekly basis are 50-75lbs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Interesting thread about a pup from this breeder....

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/102695-8-week-old-puppy-walks-funny.html


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see your in Missouri,,I personally would have no problem going to Crooked Creek in your state..She's a member here, and has a website.

I'm wondering since you have NO contract, why you couldn't get your 300 bucks back??? 

I'm not into HUGE german shepherds, if they turn out that way, well that's something I have no control over,,if you are looking for a nice pet, well maybe you'll get one from this breeder, personally it's just not a breeder I would consider because I'm not 'into" that type of dog..Good luck with whatever you do,,and of course we INSIST on puppy pictures no matter WHERE you get your puppy from


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

rhyno said:


> believe it or not, I found another thread on the same topic. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/103016-anyone-have-dog-royalair.html
> 
> Looks like it turned into a simliar conversation back then  I do have to say though, no matter what we decide to do, I thank you all for your opinions and feedback. I also do want to state that I contacted probably a dozen breeders, and the lady at this place was by far the nicest we dealt with.


Sadly, many so-so breeders _are_ very nice, nicer usually than the cream-of-the-crop breeders. That doesn't mean quality dogs. I'd rather deal with a raving b---- and get a good quality puppy with a legit contract than a nice BYB with a sham contract and a sick puppy with lifelong issues.


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## Bigdogsolo (Nov 6, 2011)

*Why would anyone deal with a Raving "B"*



msvette2u said:


> Sadly, many so-so breeders _are_ very nice, nicer usually than the cream-of-the-crop breeders. That doesn't mean quality dogs. I'd rather deal with a raving b---- and get a good quality puppy with a legit contract than a nice BYB with a sham contract and a sick puppy with lifelong issues.


 
I get your point here, but why would anyone deal with someone who is less than professional.Bad(personal) behavior are signs of other potential problems. And after searching for a dog over the last couple months, many breeders (not most) need lessons in 1.business 2. customer service 3. web design/marketing
Just my opinion.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my feeling is , and I'm sure most don't agree, if I feel I have found a dog/puppy that I am very happy with, I could care less about breeder contact afterwards. It's great if that breeder stays in contact, helpful and wanting to see how their puppy progresses, but it's not the end all for me..

In the end, I'm living with that dog/puppy not the breeder. When I take that puppy/dog I take it for life no matter what, contracts are great, but again not the end all for me. I'm not going to give that dog up or replace, it's a lifetime committment for 'me'. 

Luckily I have formed wonderful relationships with any breeder I've gotten dogs from which I am grateful for

But, in the end, it's all about choosing hopefully wisely, and the 'dog' for me..


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Bigdogsolo said:


> And after searching for a dog over the last couple months, many breeders (not most) need lessons in 1.business 2. customer service 3. web design/marketing
> Just my opinion.


Since MOST breeders don't actually earn their living or make a profit from breeding, I don't really expect them to be "businesslike" to an extent. I expect them to be forthright and knowledgeable and to live up to their end of whatever agreement is reached. Many of the websites, like the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread are downright laughable and I find them entertaining. I do, however, judge the website on content. 
The breeder we have gotten our last few dogs from does do well on all counts mentioned. I get contracts as soon as a breeding is decided upon, the website is very thorough, easy to navigate and updated, and we get regular updates when the pups are born and contact after the pup comes home. Other than a fabulous puppy, what more could I want ?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

See I'm having problems finding a reason to get one if these dogs even if its something the OP wants.
I have a dog from a BYB, and I have dogs from a respectable, responsible breeder. 

The difference is night and day. I can't stand the health issues the BYB dog has. Arthritis at such a young age, panosteitis when she was young causing her to scream in pain for nights on end and limp for 12 months straight. Her severe allergies to the environment, to grains, and to chicken.

She has temperament problems coming out of her ears. She's afraid of other dogs she doesn't know well. If left to her own devices would try to kill another dog for just looking at her.
She hates children.

She has severe anxiety. She will literally throw herself into a panic if she thinks you are leaving.

I love her to death and I am commited to her till her last breath. But why would anyone choose to ignore that someone is breeding that in their program and actually pay as much as I paid for my dogs from the respectable breeder.

I've met a royal air dog. I'm a trainer and was called to help train the dog. The problems that dog had were not caused by poor handling...

Why spend that kind of money on something that will cause you great heartbreak and strain on your wallet.
Mine taught me some very very hard lessons. Thanks to her I know a lot about allergies, anxiety, behavior issues, behavior modification, diet, supplements etc.

But that's not something the average dog owner is going to be willing or want to have to learn because they bought a problem dog.


I constantly get questions from other shepherd owners (as a trainer and dog food customer service at a store I meet a lot) why their dog is so spazy, worried, or aggressive while my dog (from good breeder) is so great with children & so confident. I tell them a well bred German shepherd from any line would be just as good as this one. That this is what a dog bred with temperament, health, structure, balanced drives, and working ability are like.

To me, even if you want a large dog, a white dog, a long coat dog etc. It's still doesn't outweigh the problems you are also purchasing. It's not worth it.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

4TheDawgies said:


> See I'm having problems finding a reason to get one if these dogs even if its something the OP wants.
> I have a dog from a BYB, and I have dogs from a respectable, responsible breeder.
> 
> The difference is night and day. I can't stand the health issues the BYB dog has. Arthritis at such a young age, panosteitis when she was young causing her to scream in pain for nights on end and limp for 12 months straight. Her severe allergies to the environment, to grains, and to chicken.
> ...


Excellent post Maris! Thank you for sharing!


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## rhyno (Nov 8, 2011)

Again, thank you everyone for your suggestions/feedback & Advice we do appreciate it. After reading all of the things on here last night I delved even further into researching some of the dogs that were listed on their web site. 

I "think" and the key word there is think, but I believe that they have German Shepherds that way back in their bloodlines, were bred with "shiloh's? I had never even heard of Shiloh shepherds until I found some articles on them last night. If this is true though, how could they come with AKC papers as Pure German Shepherds? 

As I stated earlier, we don't care about size, that was not our focus, whether it is 60 lbs or 120 lbs, it really doesn't matter to us. Temperment is #1. We have 5 children, and we just want a "good" Family pet. In her site, while it is very confusing and does give you a head ache, she talks a lot about breeding for temperment, that is what drew us to her in the first place. 

We will look into crooked creek as well. Even if we walk away from the $300.00 deposit, their German Shepherds would end up costing about the same. 

No matter what we decide, I will make sure and post a picture of whatever puppy we get.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

rhyno said:


> Again, thank you everyone for your suggestions/feedback & Advice we do appreciate it. After reading all of the things on here last night I delved even further into researching some of the dogs that were listed on their web site.
> 
> I "think" and the key word there is think, but I believe that they have German Shepherds that way back in their bloodlines, were bred with "shiloh's? I had never even heard of Shiloh shepherds until I found some articles on them last night. If this is true though, how could they come with AKC papers as Pure German Shepherds?
> 
> ...


Even if a breeder says they breed for temperament it doesn't mean they do. This is why titles on the parents help wash out the BYBs from the potential choices. 

I would recommend posting a thread asking for breeder recommendations. You will receive quite a few recommendations but most if not all will be breeders that are respectable and proven to produce quality.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They might breed sweet dogs that are great with family members but what if the dog is an emotional wreck? What if they are terrified of storms, people who are not family members and other dogs? 

They could be great pets but be fear biters or aggressive.

Reputable breeders only breed sound dogs, dogs that can handle any situation, dogs with great nerve, friendly towards family members and aloof towards strangers but not aggressive towards them.

You want a sweet dog that is great with your family but you do not want a dog that is unstable and aggressive.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Bigdogsolo said:


> I get your point here, but why would anyone deal with someone who is less than professional.Bad(personal) behavior are signs of other potential problems. And after searching for a dog over the last couple months, many breeders (not most) need lessons in 1.business 2. customer service 3. web design/marketing
> Just my opinion.


As others have said, a lot of really great breeders do this as a hobby, not a business. They're in it to please themselves first and foremost, not earn a million dollars. The fact that they produce great dogs that people want to buy _in spite of_ the fact that they can be harder to get ahold of and deal with says a lot. If you want to to to the Wal-Mart of breeders, go right ahead. (not referring to the breeder in question, just a general observation) 



4TheDawgies said:


> Even if a breeder says they breed for temperament it doesn't mean they do. This is why titles on the parents help wash out the BYBs from the potential choices.


Strongly, strongly agree with this. The easiest thing in the world is to say, "We breed for temperament and loyalty" because the average puppy buyer hasn't the slightest clue how to test for these things besides-- "The parents seemed nice at their house." It's a whole lot harder to back it up with performance.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

"Temperament" is a loaded word. To Person A that might mean a calm, nice, social household pet. To Person B that might mean good drives, strong active aggression, rock solid nerves demonstrated in situations that Person A might never dream of putting their dog in. Some of my favorite aspects of temperament of my favorite dog are things that other GSD owners think are "bad". I like a dog that is very neutral and aloof towards everyone and everything but his person and his job. I like a dog that is on the tougher side, a dog with strong aggression, but apporpriate thresholds (same dog is safe with kids, safe with strangers coming into the house). I do not like GSDs that are overly social, overly suspicious, or have too low thresholds for prey and get neurotic in training. I do not want a GSD that is a mellow couch potato social butterfly kind of dog. Not saying the dogs from this breeder are. I have heard a lot of people who have dogs from this breeder say they love the temperament and will get another. But what I'm saying is that "temperament" means different things to different people....


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Having a dog that is good with your children is all well and fine, but what about your childrens FRIENDS? Most dogs are good with their family, it's when strangers are in the home they fall apart. (Become fearfull, aggressive ect.....if they don't have a stable temperament.) And let's be honest, other folks kids are STILL strangers, just small ones.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

BlackGSD said:


> Having a dog that is good with your children is all well and fine, but what about your childrens FRIENDS? Most dogs are good with their family, it's when strangers are in the home they fall apart. (Become fearfull, aggressive ect.....if they don't have a stable temperament.) And let's be honest, other folks kids are STILL strangers, just small ones.


:thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

rhyno said:


> In her site, while it is very confusing and does give you a head ache, she talks a lot about breeding for temperment, that is what drew us to her in the first place.


Her site *is* confusing, because the breeder contradicts herself at every turn. Every other line brags about size, then she turns around and says she breeds for soundness over size. She talks about breeding for rich red pigment, then many of her dogs are washed out black and cream color. She talks about temperament, but none of her dogs are titled. She talks about bloodlines, but I couldn't find any pedigree information anywhere... but then again, I had to stop looking at her website because I was getting sick to my stomach.  

And this is really nit-picky, but I can't get past the constant misspellings and grammatical errors even though I was warned about it on the homepage. It just gives a very uneducated, trailer-trashy feel to the site. Using the word "temper" when she means "temperament", is something that I see in BYB puppy ads on Craigslist... but at least she doesn't say "purebread German Shepards", so I gotta give credit for at least spelling the breed's name correctly.

Anyway, anyone can *say* anything on the internet, but just because she talks a lot about temperament doesn't mean a darn thing--especially with no titles to back it up.


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## Snarly (Sep 7, 2011)

I've wondered about this for some other breeders I have seen as well as this one. Is it possible that at some point the litter registration was faked on who the sire/dam was??




rhyno said:


> I "think" and the key word there is think, but I believe that they have German Shepherds that way back in their bloodlines, were bred with "shiloh's? I had never even heard of Shiloh shepherds until I found some articles on them last night. If this is true though, how could they come with AKC papers as Pure German Shepherds?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Snarly said:


> I've wondered about this for some other breeders I have seen as well as this one. Is it possible that at some point the litter registration was faked on who the sire/dam was??


It's possible to do, but it's a very serious accusation to make unless you have a very good reason to believe it's been done.


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## TtailSteve (Dec 25, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Her site *is* confusing, because the breeder contradicts herself at every turn. Every other line brags about size, then she turns around and says she breeds for soundness over size. She talks about breeding for rich red pigment, then many of her dogs are washed out black and cream color. She talks about temperament, but none of her dogs are titled. She talks about bloodlines, but I couldn't find any pedigree information anywhere... but then again, I had to stop looking at her website because I was getting sick to my stomach.
> 
> And this is really nit-picky, but I can't get past the constant misspellings and grammatical errors even though I was warned about it on the homepage. It just gives a very uneducated, trailer-trashy feel to the site. Using the word "temper" when she means "temperament", is something that I see in BYB puppy ads on Craigslist... but at least she doesn't say "purebread German Shepards", so I gotta give credit for at least spelling the breed's name correctly.
> 
> Anyway, anyone can *say* anything on the internet, but just because she talks a lot about temperament doesn't mean a darn thing--especially with no titles to back it up.


Robin Krumm is a former science teacher. (this means she has a college degree and a teaching certificate) She is Dyslexic. This is a disability. It does not mean a person is ignorant, stupid or "trailer-trashy" as you state. Further it has no bearing on how well a person can or cannot bread a dog. 

Robin Krumm: a Dog's Savior :: Articles :: Los Angeles Confidential Magazine

LA Confidental article on Robin Krumm and Royalair. Impressive for an Iowa breeder to end up in an LA magazine. 

I did not come here to start a fight in any way. I was searching for gsd info and stumbled across this forum. 

I was upset how Robin has been characterized. I have met her, emailed and spoken with her multiple times. I have visted her kennel. My wife and I have a dog I purchased from her. My wife and I are experienced gsd owners, have had 2 very expensive imports from Hungary and Chech Republic (titled, one of which was chosen for a grant program to train as a cancer detecting dog at Shands Teaching Hospital in Gainesville, Florida) and couldn't be happier with our Royalair dog. We have worked with Castle K9 and donated a fully trained dog to the Gainesville, Florida police department. The dog, Grady, is currently serving on the force. 

I am also mildly Dyslexic. I have been self employed for 20 years and own 3 successful companies with many employees. The FAA also lets me fly airplanes. 

The comments about Dyslexia really are upsetting and truly shows ignorance on the part of anyone who says or believes such things.

I can tell you our Royair dog is equally as smart, athletic, calm and well tempered in new situations as our titled imports. She is far from a couch potato and is extremely active. We have found her very easy to train. 

Robin has spent much effort with eradicating Degenerative Mylopathy from her lines. The European kennels hardly admit DM is even a problem. Our beautiful Bella Von Peterhaus died from DM at 8. It was heartbreaking to see a dog truly in her prime waste away in 10 weeks and have to be euthanized. 

Robin has 3 OFA Excellent hip rated dogs at her kennel with others rated good. Her dogs over 20 years have been 98% free of hip problems. Few breeders have OFA Excellent rated hips, let alone 3 at the same time. 

I have spoken with many people that have dogs from her. A majority are extremely long lived. Some as old as 14 and 15 and many 13 year old dogs. 

She has many dogs working as service dogs and seeing eye dogs. She has donated dogs for this purpose. She has been recognized by guide dogs for the blind. 

Also, do a search and see how many other reputable breeders brag abut having breeding stock that originated from Royalair and Robin. You may be impressed by how many other kennels are proud to have one or more of her dogs at their kennel. 

At the end of the day her line of dogs may not conform to the technical standard. Maybe her line isn't for your tastes. The old cliche' "Differnt Strokes for Different Folks" certanily rings true. Just because your opinion may differ doesn't mean something is automatically bad. 

However, it is unfair to make many of the comments I have read in this thread. 

To the folks that have a deposit for one of her dogs I am confident you will be pleased with your puppy and the accessibility of Robin. 

My wife and I couldn't be more pleased with our Zoey.

Warm Regards,

Steve O


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> FYI - the bigger the GSD the more proned to health issues and the shorter lives they can/will have.


Her GSDs are generally healthy & long lived. Sam turned 13 Dec 4 2011. I had to let her go Feb 6 2012. She was healthy, sound & active until her last months. Your unfair & inaccurate assessment is why I'd recommend that people interested in a larger GSD get one from a breeder who is experienced in producing health, soundness & longevity in a larger GSD. Perhaps breeders who only occasionally & accidentally produce larger GSDs, see a lack of health, vigor & longevity in those few oversized dogs they produce, but that's not true of the breeder in question. 



> I'm sure you could find a healthier dog in rescue


And you're sure of this exactly how? Overwhelmingly, the people who have these dogs & live with them, will attest to their physical health, mental resiliency, structural integrity & exmplary temperaments. I looked at rescue for several months. None of the dogs came close to what I was seeking. Some of 'em were large, but they lacked everything else I wanted.



> Having a dog that is good with your children is all well and fine, but what about your childrens FRIENDS?


An excellent point which I frequently remind people of when they're seeking a family pet. Royalair dogs are outstanding with people in general & especially children. They're very stable, discerning, biddable & not unduly suspicious. 



> I wouldn't want a dog from there if THEY paid ME! (For all of the reasons already posted and then some!)


I won't be so crass as to name names but there are several very well regarded breeders I feel exactly the same way about. Fortunately, for both of us, none of these breeders is paying people to take their dogs.



> But what I'm saying is that "temperament" means different things to different people....


Indded it does which makes it essential to get accurate, detailed info. I can't count the times someone has assured me her _dog is 'very nice, he's just afraid'. _YIKES! That's exactly what I don't want. Or that their out of control cur is simply, _'very protective'_. Double YIKES! More of what I don't want.

I talked at some length with someone looking at Roylair GSDs & told her they might not have the work ethic she was seeking as she'd done competitive herding for several years. She assured me she was in a different place & was happy to be getting a more relaxed dog...And then her pup came home. Despite the numerous claims these dogs are 'couch potatoes', (always by people that have NEVER had 'em), she soon realized he's an active, athletic dog capable of going all day. In fact he was as active & energetic as her WL GSDs. Royalair GSDs settle well, yes, but they have the energy to keep up with whatever activity the owners prefer.



> I "think" and the key word there is think, but I believe that they have German Shepherds that way back in their bloodlines, were bred with "shiloh's?


Before there was a 'Shiloh breed' there was a Shiloh kennel that bred AKC GSDs. Both are affiliated with Tina Barber. For this reason you will see Shiloh in some pedigrees, but these were AKC GSDs, not Shiloh's. 



> Anyway, anyone can *say* anything on the internet, but just because she talks a lot about temperament doesn't mean a darn thing--especially with no titles to back it up.


Yep, & there are more than a few doing that right here despite no personal experience with the dogs or the breeder. In my personal experience, not only are her GSDs terrific, but the breeder is pleasant, honest, dedicated & the anti-thesis of 'trailer trashy'. (Her spelling, punctuation & word useage are poor, as she readily admits, but I was looking for a GS breeder, not an English teacher).

To breed for soundness over size does not mean that one can't breed for size as well. In fact the standards gestapo surely do exactly that. All good breeders select for more than a single desired quality. Her GSDs are big, specifically tall. (Djibouti weighed 92 or 93 lbs at 17 mos. He's probably a bit heavier at 4 yrs, but not much). As well as being over sized, they're sound, healthy, personable, biddable, intelligent & stable. Overwhelmingly the people who have her dogs & live with 'em say this, including those people who have previously owned WL GSDs. This is not a slam on WL. I absolutely adore my little Djibouti. He's perfection in fur, but I can love him without trashing other dogs.

Steve O, Robin/Royalair is a breeder people here love to hate. Despite the no bashing rule she's routinely bashed by long time members. Many members who consider the 'breed standard' inviolate are perfectly comfortable ignoring the forum rules when it comes to bashing breeders of over sized GSD.

Fortunately, I trust my own judgment & I use it. I got the GSDs that perfectly suit me. IMO, everybody deserves that opportunity. The hostile climate on this board towards unconforming breeders is divisive & counter productive. Members with over sized GSDs often simply avoid the breeding forums. Many simply leave the board. I hope that won't be true of you.


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## Jimmyjones (Jan 27, 2012)

*Wow!*

All I can say is wow. I cannot believe the bashing on here. The last two posters hit the nail on the head so I will just kick a dead horse once.

As you can see I am a new member here and will admit I know less than most on here. I can tell you though i owned a gsd as a child and for the last two years I have been in contact with robin and just visited her place last week to view the litter I am picking from. I was blown away at the beauty and quality of her dogs! They were not your average shepherds and I mean in more than just size. Their personality, color and friendliness were stunning. Robin herself is extremely knowledgeable in my humble opinion and has been the nicest and most patient person in dealing with my two years of emails and phone calls trying to pick the perfect pup. I was impressed with the pups and picked mine out yeseterday. She will ship him next week. If I ever have a question about my dog or any shepherd I will be calling her.

For those of you that think because I am new here that I am ignorant and gullible, I can assure you that as a 34 year old Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant with a degree in Pyschology and multiple combat deployments I am quite cautious and perceptive of fakes and phonies. After two years I am confident in my decision and want to reassure the OP. As for this site, it has given me the initial impression that it is full of snobby and arrogant owners. I may just avoid this site now as I don't want it rubbing off on me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

discussions like this go on quite a bit on this forum. People have opinions, it's up to you as a poster, to weed thru what will help you , what will not, and form your own opinions as well as doing your homework when purchasing a puppy.

My feeling is, if one wants a BIG dog, likes this breeders dogs, then go for it. It has no impact on my life or my dogs..In other words to each his own

I just want to add, and this has absolutely nothing to do with this particular breeder, because a person/breeder is 'nice' and one likes them, their dogs are nice , pretty and friendly, does not necessarily mean they are producing sound/healthy dogs. 

Good luck with your new puppy Jimmy, and we insist on pictures)


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## Jimmyjones (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree 100%. To each there own. I dont agree with the GSD that have sharp angled backs but Im not going to blast the owners or breeders. As you said it doesnt effect me or my life.

Here are a few pictures that she sent me. I will not be able to send actual pictures from my place until I return from Korea in April. But I have already met this pup and think it is gorgeous. Now I just need a name. Odin, Rocco and Bruno have been bouncing around but its almost as hard picking a name as it is your pup.

Since the OP is considering buying from here, I will post more info on this post in April with a report of size, temperment and health. I will be honest with the results.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is VERY VERY CUTE!!!!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

He's adorable. I'd suggest Honey Butt or Mr Wiggles (jk)

Jakoda, I agree on 'nice'. I do want someone pleasant, willing to work with me & who will be supportive if needed. Unfortunately, the most successful scammers are often exceptionally personable. How many times have we seen some one say after being bilked out of thousands, "But he was so niiiice". I need to feel that #1, the nice is sincere & #2, there's a solid base of knowledge & experience in addition to being nice. 

There are breeders who become combative & accusing the minute there's an issue. It's impossible to address problems, let alone resolve 'em when that attitude is taken. (Of course there are buyers like that, too. A problem, even a minor one, & the buyer is screaming, "CHEAT!!! BYB! I'll see him in court.") IMO, the killing part of breeding would be the necessity of dealing with people


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