# How much raw??



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hello all, 
I have started feeding my 8 month old 68.8 lb, 27 1/2 inch tall from paw to shoulder white GSD puppy Nature's Variety Raw Rabbit Bites. He is a bit under weight due to his medical issues lately so I am watching his weight carefully... I am a bit confused on how much I should be feeding him, since I am accustomed to feeding patties in the past which are not equivalent to a cup of bites of this raw formula. We do really like the bites though because they defrost quickly and I always forgot to leave the patties out over night, and they are easy to defrost and use like treats! So far he is doing well and loving the raw. I called the company and they said he should eat 9 1/2 CUPS A DAY!!!! ( I have been feeding him 3 cups per day, almost 1 lb ). Each bag contains about 16 cups and cost roughly $45! I figure he should overall be eating about 2 lbs of premade raw per day, is this correct? The patties are also not any more cost effective, the bites are actually cheaper at our store per pound! What is your opinion on this guys? At 2 lbs per day that's $660 per MONTH woah!!! He is not exercising much, I have been keeping him resting to recover if that makes any difference.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Is he intact? I have a 72 lb intact male who was eating about 2.5 lbs of raw a day until after he turned two. He was the one who had major GI issues before raw, and was underweight when started. I would say 1 lb of raw is definitely not enough for your boy. I’d guess he needs between 2 and 2.5 lbs a day. I’m really glad the food seems to be working for him.

Edited to add: I feel your pain on price. I easily spent $600/month to feed just my boy when he was younger and very sick. It sucks when only the really expensive stuff works!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Is he intact? I have a 72 lb intact male who was eating about 2.5 lbs of raw a day until after he turned two. He was the one who had major GI issues before raw, and was underweight when started. I would say 1 lb of raw is definitely not enough for your boy. I’d guess he needs between 2 and 2.5 lbs a day. I’m really glad the food seems to be working for him.
> 
> Edited to add: I feel your pain on price. I easily spent $600/month to feed just my boy when he was younger and very sick. It sucks when only the really expensive stuff works!


Yes he is still intact. Oh great :surprise: !! Yes so far its really working for him... it may just be the meds but i'm not convinced, hes so much more alert and active than last time. Anyone have suggestions on how we can cut down on cost? We live in FL so we have access to fishing... would raw whole fish be a good supplement?? I've looked at the price of the canned foods and its even MORE expensive than feeding our raw! I have a feeling hes going to be one of those weird dogs that just can't tolerate kibble :gonefishing:


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

The vast majority of raw feeders do not feed premade raw - not sure if that's been your impression? It just isn't feasible cost wise for most. When I fed raw, I was able to feed and supplement 2 adult GSD for less than a third of what you're quoting. It took a lot of time, research and space but it was worth it for the simple fact that I wouldn't have been able to afford it any other way. I kept premade for on hand emergencies or for pet sitters, etc.

It's been awhile since I've been involved but I'm sure there are resource threads in this forum. My saving grace was buying bulk from a meat co op and frequenting sales at ethnic markets.... trying to stay under a buck a pound.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes he is still intact. Oh great :surprise: !! Yes so far its really working for him... it may just be the meds but i'm not convinced, hes so much more alert and active than last time. Anyone have suggestions on how we can cut down on cost? We live in FL so we have access to fishing... would raw whole fish be a good supplement?? I've looked at the price of the canned foods and its even MORE expensive than feeding our raw! I have a feeling hes going to be one of those weird dogs that just can't tolerate kibble :gonefishing:


If this is working for him, I’d be really hesitant to start adding other things in just yet. Give his gut some time to heal and be normal before trying to add anything else. I know that’s not what you want to hear, and it’s just my opinion. But his GI system needs a rest, and if this food is giving it to him, I’d just leave it at that.

If it’s any consolation, my boy can now eat the cheaper proteins from Stella & Chewy, as well as sardines. It has brought the price down some. But I waited until I was sure he was stable before I tried switching anything up.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Fodder said:


> The vast majority of raw feeders do not feed premade raw - not sure if that's been your impression? It just isn't feasible cost wise for most. When I fed raw, I was able to feed and supplement 2 adult GSD for less than a third of what you're quoting. It took a lot of time, research and space but it was worth it for the simple fact that I wouldn't have been able to afford it any other way. I kept premade for on hand emergencies or for pet sitters, etc.
> 
> It's been awhile since I've been involved but I'm sure there are resource threads in this forum. My saving grace was buying bulk from a meat co op and frequenting sales at ethnic markets.... trying to stay under a buck a pound.


I assume you are referring to raw chicken,turkey or beef? He has done very badly on all of these proteins even raw. So far the only thing he has done well on now is rabbit and I don't know of any store that sells raw rabbit unless its coming from China.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I don't know of any store that sells raw rabbit unless its coming from China.


 Primal has a Rabbit Formula: comes in 3 lb. nuggets or 6 lb. patties: https://primalpetfoods.com/products/canine-rabbit-frozen-formula 
Find a store: https://primalpetfoods.com/pages/store-locator 

Primal Pet Foods Raw Frozen Canine Rabbit Formula provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.


Free of antibiotics, steroids, preservatives and added hormones, all meat, poultry and game used in our products are responsibly sourced from sustainable ranchers in the United States, New Zealand, Australia and Europe. Simply put, the ingredients we use in our products are the same items you’d find in any health conscious human’s grocery cart — *100% USDA inspected proteins* and fresh, certified organic fruits, vegetables, and non-synthetic vitamins and minerals.

*Raw Frozen Canine Rabbit Formula *
*Ingredients: *
Rabbit (with ground bone), Organic Collard Greens, Organic Squash, Organic Celery, Rabbit Livers, Rabbit Hearts, Cranberries, Blueberries, Organic Pumpkin Seeds, Organic Sunflower Seeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Cilantro, Organic Ginger, Sardine Oil, Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Quinoa Sprout Powder, Alfalfa, Dried Organic Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement.
*
*
*Feeding Calculator: https://primalpetfoods.com/pages/feeding-calculator *
*
*
*Guaranteed Analysis:*
Crude Protein (min) 17%
Crude Fat (min) 5%
Crude Fiber (max) 1%
Moisture (max) 71%
Ash (max) 3.5%
*Additional Product Information:*
Rabbit 85%
Produce & Supplements 15%
Organic Ingredients 13%
Organ Meat ≅10%
Bone Content ≅ 10%
CA-to-P ratio 1.5:1


Wishing you luck and a healthy recovery for your dog!

Moms


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Premade raw is very expensive but I would be hesitant to change food again or add anything at the moment. Let the GI tract heal if this is working. I would give it a couple of months at least before considering any protein or source change as long as things continue to improve. I know that this is a BIG financial hit but in the end it may be well worth it.

In the future you may be able to transition to a prey model raw which would save you some money but you will need a freezer. Check out places like My Pet Carnivore. But again I would strongly recommend not changing food too soon.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Primal has a Rabbit Formula: comes in 3 lb. nuggets or 6 lb. patties: https://primalpetfoods.com/products/canine-rabbit-frozen-formula
> Find a store: https://primalpetfoods.com/pages/store-locator
> 
> Primal Pet Foods Raw Frozen Canine Rabbit Formula provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages.
> ...


Thanks... we already have found a premade rabbit raw food called Natures Variety. He is doing well on it, I was referring to straight up raw rabbit. The primal i'm sure is just as expensive.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Springbrz said:


> Premade raw is very expensive but I would be hesitant to change food again or add anything at the moment. Let the GI tract heal if this is working. I would give it a couple of months at least before considering any protein or source change as long as things continue to improve. I know that this is a BIG financial hit but in the end it may be well worth it.
> 
> In the future you may be able to transition to a prey model raw which would save you some money but you will need a freezer. Check out places like My Pet Carnivore. But again I would strongly recommend not changing food too soon.


Nice!! This was the answer I was looking for. Thank you so much I had no idea something like this existed!! Luckily we just bought a house and it came with an extra full sized freezer... I would say that's fate :grin2:. I agree will keep him on this for a couple months, I see the cost we are saving on vet bills.. my husband however is the one who is trying to put his foot down and switch him right back to kibble which clearly was making things worse :|.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I was referring to straight up raw rabbit.


 Hare Today Gone Tomorrow is where I order specific products from. They have several different “forms” of rabbit to choose from, even a whole ground carcass including fur or the whole rabbit! They ship to all states in the USA.


“Hare Today started as a small rabbit farm, thus our name, and we still specialize in rabbit meat. We are located in Springboro, PA, five miles from the Ohio line. We believe in raising things as naturally as possible with plenty of fresh air, fresh food, and TLC and to support other family farms that believe the same as we do.”

Here is their rabbit page: https://hare-today.com/category/meat_proteins_or_packaging_types/rabbit 

Moms


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm really glad to hear you found something that he can tolerate, and he's getting some calories!

If this is the recipe of raw he's eating: https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/raw/instinct-raw-frozen-bites-farm-raised-rabbit-recipe

Which is made from these ingredients: 



> Rabbit (including Ground Rabbit Bone), *Pork Liver, Pork Heart, Ground Pork Bone, Pork Fat,* Yeast Culture, Rabbit Liver, Pumpkinseeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Apples, Broccoli, Butternut Squash, Rabbit Kidney, Rabbit Lung, Salt, Cod Liver Oil, Dried Kelp, Carrots, Spinach, Mixed Tocopherols, Dried Chicory Root, Blueberries.


If he stabilizes and does well on this formula for a period of time, you might cautiously try small amounts of raw pork products to bring the overall costs down - since he is already eating it.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thank you, y'all are my heros :wub:!!! So glad we have some options here and we won't go broke!!!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hare Today Gone Tomorrow is where I order specific products from. They have several different “forms” of rabbit to choose from, even a whole ground carcass including fur or the whole rabbit! They ship to all states in the USA.
> 
> 
> “Hare Today started as a small rabbit farm, thus our name, and we still specialize in rabbit meat. We are located in Springboro, PA, five miles from the Ohio line. We believe in raising things as naturally as possible with plenty of fresh air, fresh food, and TLC and to support other family farms that believe the same as we do.”
> ...


Thank you so much, exactly what I was looking for!!! How do you feed the whole rabbit? Do you grind it up yourself or just give it to them whole? Another question, do you all add supplements when you feed the whole ground portions with organs etc.? I see his pre made raw food has additives.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

It’s wonderful to know you have some options with where to source raw from in the future. And it’s fantastic that other sources will be cheaper. But I cannot reiterate strongly enough that I think it is a bad idea to add anything else right now. Even if it is the same protein he’s currently esting. My Pet Carnivore and Hare Today are WONDERFUL. I source some of my raw from them. But, my problem GI boy can’t handle stuff from them. I sincerely hope that Gandalf will not end up as sensitive as my guy, but I would seriously consider letting him gain back some weight and make up the nutritional deficiencies he has from all the diarrhea he has had before going to a non commercial product. If other sources happen to give him diarrhea in a few months, it won’t set him back as far as it would right now.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> It’s wonderful to know you have some options with where to source raw from in the future. And it’s fantastic that other sources will be cheaper. But I cannot reiterate strongly enough that I think it is a bad idea to add anything else right now. Even if it is the same protein he’s currently esting. My Pet Carnivore and Hare Today are WONDERFUL. I source some of my raw from them. But, my problem GI boy can’t handle stuff from them. I sincerely hope that Gandalf will not end up as sensitive as my guy, but I would seriously consider letting him gain back some weight and make up the nutritional deficiencies he has from all the diarrhea he has had before going to a non commercial product. If other sources happen to give him diarrhea in a few months, it won’t set him back as far as it would right now.


Dont worry I do not plan on adding anything new for a couple months, I am just thinking ahead for the future. My dear husband said last night if we can't find a better alternative for the future for our pup he would be giving him away... now at least I have a cheaper route i can show him for the future. I wonder why your guy can't handle their food if its the same protein? Maybe its the bacteria since its not HPP processed... Absolutely, my pup comes first I want him completely healthy before we try anything new. Another question for you raw feeders, how do you manage while on vacation? We had so many great plans of traveling up north with Gandalf... we would have to stay at hotels along the way and I know most don't have large freezers if they even have a freezer at all.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Thank you so much, exactly what I was looking for!!! How do you feed the whole rabbit? Do you grind it up yourself or just give it to them whole? Another question, do you all add supplements when you feed the whole ground portions with organs etc.? I see his pre made raw food has additives.


I do not feed "whole prey" so, I can't help you there! 

I *do* give supplements with my homemade raw meals. 
I believe since they are not eating a "fresh kill" there are nutrients missing.


Totally agree with GypsyGhost about not changing ANYTHING with your boy for some time.


In the future: for traveling, I am sold on Ziwi Peak. I've traveled with raw and with The Honest Kitchen, but Ziwi is by far the easiest! Expensive for 2 dogs, especially since our boy has to eat twice as much as recommended, but we "bite the bullet" when we travel several times per year. 

Moms


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Dont worry I do not plan on adding anything new for a couple months, I am just thinking ahead for the future. My dear husband said last night if we can't find a better alternative for the future for our pup he would be giving him away... now at least I have a cheaper route i can show him for the future. I wonder why your guy can't handle their food if its the same protein? Maybe its the bacteria since its not HPP processed... Absolutely, my pup comes first I want him completely healthy before we try anything new. Another question for you raw feeders, how do you manage while on vacation? We had so many great plans of traveling up north with Gandalf... we would have to stay at hotels along the way and I know most don't have large freezers if they even have a freezer at all.


There are many options. You know that Nature's Variety works and you could take some with you in a cooler. Buy as you go. Would take some planning but doable. I put together my own raw and can keep several days frozen in a small cooler easily. Hotels have ice to replace in a cooler to keep meals frozen/cold. Many commercial raw brands also have dehydrated versions as well that would just require water for rehydrating. It really depends on where you are going and how long you will be away from home. 

They are pricey but a yetti cooler is supposed to keep food frozen for up to a week I've heard.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

What is the absolute minimum time you guys recommend keeping him on his current raw rabbit food? He's doing great on it still, couldn't be happier but its really killing the bank. I'll be paying about $645 per month on this raw rabbit vs the MPC rabbit $280 per month.. I want him to be healthy though and will not risk his health over cost. We are just scraping by as it is.. hoping too that the pet insurance pays out soon. Just want to know so we can budget accordingly. We gave him his interceptor heartworm pill today too.. praying that doesn't give him diarrhea or throw things off.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> What is the absolute minimum time you guys recommend keeping him on his current raw rabbit food? He's doing great on it still, couldn't be happier but its really killing the bank. I'll be paying about $645 per month on this raw rabbit vs the MPC rabbit $280 per month.. I want him to be healthy though and will not risk his health over cost. We are just scraping by as it is.. hoping too that the pet insurance pays out soon. Just want to know so we can budget accordingly. We gave him his interceptor heartworm pill today too.. praying that doesn't give him diarrhea or throw things off.


There is no minimum time. Every dog is going to heal at a different rate. What were the results of the allergy testing you mentioned? Was there constant exposure to his bad foods list all during his illness?

At the very least I would wait until there were consistent normal stools (Well formed, no color patches, no mucous, etc) for atleast 2 - 4 weeks... then I would SLOWLY introduce another single food source and see how that effects him. But that's pushing it time frame wise...


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> There is no minimum time. Every dog is going to heal at a different rate. What were the results of the allergy testing you mentioned? Was there constant exposure to his bad foods list all during his illness?
> 
> At the very least I would wait until there were consistent normal stools (Well formed, no color patches, no mucous, etc) for atleast 2 - 4 weeks... then I would SLOWLY introduce another single food source and see how that effects him. But that's pushing it time frame wise...


The allergy test revealed he is allergic to catfish, cod, herring, mackerel, white fish, salmon, chicken, turkey, corn, wheat, sweet potato, regular potato, milk, and an array of different plants, fungi, bird feathers, cockroaches (lol?), house fly, and dust... i'm sad to say they didn't test to see if he was allergic to rabbit but judging by how he is doing i would venture a guess to say no. The test also said pork, venison and beef is fine, and his food is half pork so I would believe that too. And yes there was constant exposure to these bad foods... he had zignature kibble salmon and fish mix for a good 3 months (boy do I feel like a terrible owner...) , he had a lot of milk products in the beginning.. I gave him yogurt before I started buying probiotics and we always used to splurge and get him ice cream when we went through the DQ drive thru. Also most his foods had potatoes... and the vet food Z/D the very first ingredient is CORN! He's also allergic to a ton of trees that don't grow here in FL , how does that work out? I don't want to push him too far.. I would hate to cause another relapse. I bought 40 POUNDS of his current food so he should be on this for about a month... I could keep buying more but I want to know when its safe to switch. So what you are saying is wait for the stools to look perfectly normal, no patchiness. How often should proteins be rotated so that allergies do not develop?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I have noticed him biting his nails and licking his paws a good amount now ?... could this be a reaction to the food? I hope not.... maybe also an environmental allergy? Ugh!!! I can't see anything visually wrong with his paws/nails...


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