# Learning from APTB Dogmen?



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

So I just came back from a mock trial. It was a scorcher, many dogs including my dog tbh quickly lost their animation and got a tad droopy in the heat. This ofcourse lead to less intensity and preformances that could have been better. I was not happy with the product I put out on the field and would be very unhappy if it were a real trial.

I got to thinking that if my dog were in better physical condition and had better endurance and heat tolerance the performance would have likely been better. 

For the record my dog lives inside with AC so is not acclimated to the heat the same as if she lived outside. I assume its the same for a lot of the dogs there.

*I will preface this by saying I am not interested in discussing the morals of these "dogmen". Obviously dog fighting is illegal, cruel and immoral. However, the undeniable truth is that money and pride will push human beings to unique feats of innovation. Innovations we can learn from. 


SO I was recently on youtube and began taking in some vids on the sporting dog channel from such APTB luminaries as Don Mayfield and Robert Lemm. 
Specifically how they conditioned their animals for "shows" code speak for dog fight. 

The study and effort they put into conditioning these dogs was herculean for obvious reasons.

There was much discussion on slat mills, supplements, chaining the dog, flirt pole, Jenny work etc.

These guys were doing everything from volume to resistance training with these dogs on a daily basis.

A few things I would like to touch on:

Treadmills, Robert Lemm talks about essentially volume training the dog on the mill. Dog trots for 2 mins goes flat out for 1 min back to a trot for 2 mins...rinse and repeat for 25-30 mins.
The idea is to decrease the rest period over time as the dogs endurance and VO2 max increases.

They did I believe its called Jenny work (the contraption looks complicated to replicate) have seen something similar for horses. Where the dog runs in a wide circle. Again they trot and run the dog. Also the handler sometime holds on to the Jenny for added resistance. The dog is frequently taken off the Jenny hosed down and walked, allowed to recover then put back on it.

They talked about putting the young dogs on a chain from 6 month onwards to increase overall fitness. This is not the virst time I have heard that chaining the dog out increases overall fitness.

I wont get into supplements it was all beyond my ken, both human and dog stuff..lol. They did feed quality kibble for obvious reasons.

Lemm talked about life sustaining fat vs 0% bodyfat and how you need the fat.. 

Pulling weight on sleds going for walks and more was discussed.

Anyways this has all made me re think how I keep and exercise my dogs. Needless to say a high level of fitness would result in a better performance on field.

Once again dog fighting is wrong, however I think there is something to learn from all ends of the dog game from hunters to yes..even dogmen when it comes to breeding, conditioning, stock selection and training.

So lets not make this about the illegal immoral aspect of what folks do with gamedogs we all agree its bad.


Thoughts and experience on this subject are what I am shooting for.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think like everything else - this can be taken to the extreme. I would worry about over-conditioning a dog, i.e.: excessive workouts that will long-term cause more harm than good. IPO is already hard on a dog, by adding more physical stressors the dog may be breaking down physically prematurely. The people in those videos may have some great results, but they may not be as concerned about keeping the dog healthy and hale into the senior years. 

Talking to a Canadian mulit-national competitor/winner, WUSV multi-competitor about how he conditions his dogs for international level competition he mentioned two things: Weight pulling and swimming. For weight pulling, you'd be surprised, they had a special-made harness and the dog would work 15-20 minutes a day pulling a . . . (are you ready for this?) . . . 5 lb weight. Yes, FIVE pounds! He was amazed at how this developed the dog's muscle mass and strength, without taxing the system. 

For swimming, he would take his dog out to a lake and swim her for 30 minutes a day (out in a boat, dog swam for 30 minutes no break) - of course, they worked up to that level slowly. 

Bottom line is that these were low-impact exercises that did not put continous, extreme stress on the the joints, or force the dog to the edge of exhaustion. Again, long-term sustainability was the goal. Keep the dog healthy and active into her senior years.


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## Pioneer53 (May 5, 2006)

Lucia,

That is fascinating about the weight pulling. Do you know any more about what kind of harness he used and what they used for the weight? Thanks!

TJ


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> The people in those videos may have some great results, but they may not be as concerned about keeping the dog healthy and hale into the senior years.


Lol you're a diplomat. What a way to put it)))))


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> I think like everything else - this can be taken to the extreme. I would worry about over-conditioning a dog, i.e.: excessive workouts that will long-term cause more harm than good. IPO is already hard on a dog, by adding more physical stressors the dog may be breaking down physically prematurely. The people in those videos may have some great results, but they may not be as concerned about keeping the dog healthy and hale into the senior years.
> 
> Talking to a Canadian mulit-national competitor/winner, WUSV multi-competitor about how he conditions his dogs for international level competition he mentioned two things: Weight pulling and swimming. For weight pulling, you'd be surprised, they had a special-made harness and the dog would work 15-20 minutes a day pulling a . . . (are you ready for this?) . . . 5 lb weight. Yes, FIVE pounds! He was amazed at how this developed the dog's muscle mass and strength, without taxing the system.
> 
> ...


Can you give some more details on the low-impact weight pull setup? How did he hitch all this up, what sort of harness, etc. Very interested in that.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I have not seen the weight pulling harness. This was the owner of Dog Sport Gear, Ralph Gilby, and his bitch, Billie. They made the harness in-house, just for Billie, and it had a pouch that they put rocks in, and she would drag the pouch behind her. She was RIPPED! LOL!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Interval training is very common in endurance horses and anytime distance conditioning is needed. I have used this while biking my dogs (would swim more if I had my own pond) having days when we do a slow steady long distance ride and then days where the distance is shorter and we do sprints. My dogs have been in the best shape when I do this. I have also seen the light weight resistance training used by the German handlers though I have not used it. 

Some of the other conditioning the game dog people do may not be as beneficial since their activity and IPO are different. Their activity involves one thing. Ours involves many. I look at it like a triathlon athlete Vs. wrestler. Both must be strong and have conditioning, but one involves long steady work while the other requires short bursts of power.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The harnesses I saw were very similar to the ones used by dogs in weight pulling. They just had a different apparatus hooked to the back that held the weights. One of these people just put water bottles in theirs.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

consider that it might not be the weather. Have you done mock trials before? How did she look in other weather? Did you have a visible toy in your hand this time? Do you usually? What else was different? How was it a mock trial? The entire routine? Do you usually do a whole routine? Corrections/no corrections? etc.

Dogs can expand their energy quickly in the heat, but more often than not a dog going flat over the course of the routine just means he hasn't been conditioned to hold his drive levels for long (too much of rewards, short intervals between rewards, etc.)

It's very important to teach the dog to continue to push harder for the reward/praise/release/whatever it is the dog is working for when he doesn't get it rather than go flatter.

Not something that can be explained any more than that over an internet forum, but something to talk to your TD and/or other handlers about. I'm sure you guys will be just fine down the road.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Sorry I know this derailing a bit, but for the pulling apparatus, are the things being pulled just dragging on the ground behind the dog, or are they on some sort of trolley?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The ones I saw just dragged on the ground. I have heard about show line dogs that are conditions for the conformation ring by dragging tires. Similar concept, just less weight.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Interesting. Any rhyme or reason to the way it's pulled? Straight line for 30mins, or just let the dog run around with it in the yard for a bit, something else?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> consider that it might not be the weather. Have you done mock trials before? How did she look in other weather? Did you have a visible toy in your hand this time? Do you usually? What else was different? How was it a mock trial? The entire routine? Do you usually do a whole routine? Corrections/no corrections? etc.
> 
> Dogs can expand their energy quickly in the heat, but more often than not a dog going flat over the course of the routine just means he hasn't been conditioned to hold his drive levels for long (too much of rewards, short intervals between rewards, etc.)
> 
> ...


 This is definitely something to think about... Not saying this is what happened to the OP's dog.. But have seen lots of dogs that are very animated and drivey in training, hit another field for a trial or trial condition and they lost all their intensity..

Have also seen dogs get completely gassed in trials and at training because of the heat and lack of conditioning..


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fama was in crazy shape when working. We would alternate between intervals and distance on the treadmill 5 days a week. She would happily work for hours at a time with only short breaks. 

But... She was also recently medically retired. She shows no signs of health trouble now that she is on good food / supplements. 

If you want details, let me know.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

atravis, as far as I know, for the show dogs, it is to build muscle and endurance for when they must gait in the ring for a long period of time. Fatigue can cause a change in gait and also will show up in the topline as they move. Conditioning is very important for those who are quite serious. I know my friends in Germany did conditioning work (not pulling things like this but pulling their handler and gaiting for the conformation ring) up to 2 hours as the dogs got ready for the Sieger show.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

how long should they gait for in the show to need 2 hrs prep


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I see dogs at training that are kept in AC and they come out on the field energetic, but get quickly gassed, even if they have to do a long down first. And the ones that are leaking drive tend to wear out more quickly than the dog that is level/even keeled thruout the training session. I don't keep my dog in AC unless it is extremely hot and health is at risk. But in those temps, I'd probably pass on training. Trials are usually in the early spring or fall in my area, so trialing in anything over 90 isn't happening. 
I'm all about being fair to the dog where sport is concerned. Of course working service dogs need to be kept safe, and hopefully the handlers can do so, even in extreme heat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I knew a guy that gave the dogs bowling balls as toys. This really built up the neck area. The dogs seemed to love them. 

I wonder whether dogs kept outside in the elements handle the weather extremes at a trial better than those that hang out in the AC.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

At the German Seiger show, 45 minutes or more.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Have you also tried to work your dog to where she is tired for the lets say the retrieve but have her do one or two more. I think Ivan encouraged this with an argument that the dog would be tired for the trial but had to work through the trial tiredness, might want to try that angle to for conditioning.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I know that I'm not particularly a person who is the all out person for fitness, but I have noticed that I don't usually have to worry about my dogs as much when its hot out or when it's cold out. They are constantly ready to go onto the next challenge, have learned to pace themselves and are all in rather good physical shape. 

Like others, my dogs do a decent amount of swimming. Instead of biking or treadmill however, I tend to take them on hikes and adjust the level of what they're doing or carrying on them to how long we get to be out. Generally speaking, for a shorter hike, I will find some kind of natural element (like a large rock or hill) and either ask them to go up onto it or toss something down the hill a few times for them. Let them start getting a little tired, then move out onto the trail again, letting them keep moving. I try to make goals out of where I will hit water (unless its next to the trail the whole time). Longer days, I tend to just pack water on the dogs so that they're carrying a bit more weight even if we're not going as fast. I also try not to ask them to jump on or go down hills much if we will be out for some time.

Yesterday was the annual See Spot Splash event for the local humane society. I took my boys down and they literally wanted to swim for a solid 45 minutes. I had to make them take breaks, holding onto the two bumpers I had (which some times meant that I had to play dodge the yellow lab who wants my bumpers) and simply making them have to wait. Some times this worked out. They'd just stand or sit near me, eyes on me and the bumpers. Other times they'd decide to go after a ball or we'd suddenly find ourselves in the midst of a few dogs (they had a max of 50 at a time in the pool areas - small and large). 

Even when I took them toward the exit, they were both still willing to run about. And neither of them actually laid down in the car until they knew for sure I was driving somewhere far rather than just taking another stop to one of the trails they love nearby. My dogs are all definitely in better shape than I am lol. 

However, I will add that the state of air conditioning in my house is fairly minimal compared with most people. We don't have central air. We have a few portable air conditioners and a lot of fans. The house can be warm in the summer, even if we try otherwise. Generally speaking, if I feel its too hot in the house for the dogs, I will take them somewhere with water or wet them down before they come into my room (since it is smaller with a unit in it). The heat does not seem to bother my dogs as much as it does others. I keep a sharp eye on them, water them where appropriate and attempt to always find a way to get them wet somehow. 

Don't know if anyone else has ever noticed, but when dogs who had been kind of tired and hanging around, suddenly seem to get the zoomies if they get the chance to wet themselves within a river or pond or even puddle! Least that's been my experience with my crazy dogs lol.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Good feed back.

@ Ayotrimz It probably a combo of both the heat, fitness and maintaining drive without reward for an extended period.

Assuredly the dog has not been conditioned to long enough intervals without reward. This is partially a training and age issue for sure which is being worked on.

However, the dog definitely fades faster in the heat then in cooler conditions.This has been noted in the training I do at home.

I do believe that a higher level of physical fitness would create a dog that lasts longer in the heat and stays in drive longer.

The weight drag is very interesting, is this done at a walk or run? Can you use an agitation harness or does it have to be a weight pull harness?

Unfortunately there is no water near by so swiming is out. Biking is not something I have tried for some reason thats a good idea.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

szariksdad said:


> Have you also tried to work your dog to where she is tired for the lets say the retrieve but have her do one or two more. I think Ivan encouraged this with an argument that the dog would be tired for the trial but had to work through the trial tiredness, might want to try that angle to for conditioning.


 
I have watched Ivans vid, I think that is a method you have to be careful with when it comes to certain dogs. To much and you might end up with a very flat dog.
I have personally done this with certain elements of the OB, rewarding with a thrown ball some tug, then making the dog miss then back to OB. Rinse and repeat. 

I also usually throw OB into everything to do with toys from Frisbee to two ball and mix it into the play.

I definitely believe that this helps conditioning but you cant really go beyond 10 mins before things start getting too sloppy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The weight drag I have seen is done at a walk. You might be able to use an agitation harness for lighter weights. They are designed though for a different back tension than dragging a weight. They are designed for use with the ring on the back where as pulling harnesses are designed for weights from behind and lower. Make sense?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a game dog. Game dogs don't just fight other dogs. I have to make sure he remains in top condition. I do leave him outside during the day to help him acclimate to the heat. I make sure that his exercise does not include a lot of repetitive movements - like running in a circle or a lot of quick jerky movements on his legs. 

To build drive, endurance and still remain relatively cool, we have a remote control boat that we use in the pond. He'll chase it until the battery goes dead. 

I do a LOT of free running. We go to Agility classes. I work him in a controlled bay pen. 

I have seen some folks utilize chain to help build muscle. It is along the same line as weight pulling. The dog drags large linked chain. I don't do it. My thought is if I want my dog to be in his best physical condition, I need to get off my butt and work him.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I live in East Texas and we just don't do a lot in the summer. The humidity combined with the heat is hard on a dog that lives inside. I can't acclimate him as I don't have a secure place at the moment that I would trust to leave him for extended periods of time outside, so we just play for shorter periods of time (20-30 minutes) and then he comes inside to cool off. It takes a lonnnng time to cool off. 

He would definitely benefit from acclimation to the temperature. I think your dog probably would too, moreso even than extra conditioning.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm going to add my .02, as I'm sure Blitzkrieg will hang on my every word.  

You can diss backpacking all you want but I have hiked my dog on a regular (4-5 times a week) basis since October of the year he was born (he was born in June). Many different mileage routes, but I am lucky to live in a small mountain range and there is a great little route right behind my house that is 2 miles and 1200' of elevation gain that is really a 'daily' thing for us. I put his pack on his second fall, and I usually fill it with about 5-7lbs for these, but even without that, navigating the rocks, climbing, short bursts of sprinting (game, which now we use as training and fun) muscled him unbelievably. His vets, his breeder, the people who work at the local pet store where I get his food (there are several hunting dog owners who compete in field trials on a regular basis, and they always comment on how nice it is to see a dog, particularly a GSD that is so muscled), everyone who pets him is always like "Wow! He's got some serious muscle under there".

I haven't ever put him in a ring so I don't know about his endurance there, but his general endurance is great. He can hike 10-12 miles in 90 degree weather without blinking an eye, and still be up for romping around camp-- he acts like he barely went around the block (he packs more weight on actual backpacks-- and these aren't 10 mile walks around the block, either). On one hike, a ten miler with 4,000' of gain in the first 6 miles, we banked on some creeks still being available to refill our water bottles, as we only took 4 liters with us. The highs that day down in the nearest town were listed at 92, hiking on the switchbacks in the alpine zone in the sun felt the same. No creeks, it was mid-July and they were gone already. The dog only got a liter, and did fine. My husband, on the other hand had to have two liters because he was cramping up in the quads.  

He runs 8-9 milers with me about 4 times a week, and we've had a summer that was very hot--we had three days in July below 90, and August was pretty nice too. He can swim like nobody's business. And don't even get me started on his endurance in the cold. 10 degree days are his favorite.  FTR, post-holing in the snow for a dog builds great endurance and muscle. 

He isn't always jumping up and down from rocks, either. He climbs a lot. My running race times have improved greatly since I started hiking with him on a regular basis, and I am glad I started hiking him young. I think it really helped his muscle development, plus it helps him retain the muscle he could lose running those distances. If he wasn't a lc I'd post a pic of him. 

Of course, if you live in flat land, then I don't know.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

* I should clarify our daily route is 2 miles to the top of the saddle, so four miles round-trip.


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## Pioneer53 (May 5, 2006)

Joy Henderson Pulling Harness

Looks like this may be the harness in question... Nothing on the protocol though.


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