# How likely/unlikely is a Long Coat Blk WGSL?



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Is this a likely combination or is it quite rare?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I would imagine not too common since that is not something that is popular in the show dog world. Those dogs would be traffic stopping gorgeous but would get hot in the summer time. I know my red and black coatie does.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

extremely rare. if they even exist at all. mixed lines would be more likely, but still rare. you’d need black and the LC gene to show up on both sides.


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## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Thanks for the replies! A prospective puppy is LC BLK WGSL from the margman line - I haven't heard of too many of those and wanted to get opinions from the community


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

r3tro23 said:


> Thanks for the replies! A prospective puppy is LC BLK WGSL from the margman line - I haven't heard of too many of those and wanted to get opinions from the community


posting the pedigree may get you some insight from some of the experienced members. like i said, i’d be surprised if there weren’t some working lines or ASL somewhere in there. but i’m very curious.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have seen it more often in showlines from Russia.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

guessing based on dates... is this the dog in question? German Shepherd Dog Female for sale: Solid Black SHOWLINE Longcoat Import (id: 274895)


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## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

@Fodder here is the pedigree

Litter from Hurricane Lemiselburg and Yoyo vom Lübzer Eldetal


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yes, this dog is from Russia from what I was told at a conformation show last Summer. He was super handsome and had 'presence'. Owner's website:
Vom Dinaburg German Shephers


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You want a working dog? I thought I saw this in a previous post. If so, and you want a LC black, why not just get a working line?

If you do want a working dog, then make sure you make them prove that these dogs can indeed work. I'm not impressed with this Margman line so far.

If all you want is a pet, this will be fine. The temperament seems good but they don't have super strong nerves and seem to stress easily.


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## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> You want a working dog? I thought I saw this in a previous post. If so, and you want a LC black, why not just get a working line?
> 
> If you do want a working dog, then make sure you make them prove that these dogs can indeed work. I'm not impressed with this Margman line so far.
> 
> If all you want is a pet, this will be fine. The temperament seems good but they don't have super strong nerves and seem to stress easily.


No, I'm looking for SL at the moment. Based off Dam's side, I'm assuming the lack of titles, convinces you this line is not impressive for work? Just curious as I'm still learning pedigree's.

I am looking to potential work the dog, but lots of obedience and training/trainability. I particularly want high drive for the work


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

r3tro23 said:


> No, I'm looking for SL at the moment. Based off Dam's side, I'm assuming the lack of titles, convinces you this line is not impressive for work? Just curious as I'm still learning pedigree's.
> 
> *I am looking to potential work the dog, but lots of obedience and training/trainability.* *I particularly want high drive for the work*


No. I didn't look at the pedigree. I'm going off of personal experience with the line and what I've seen in person from different females, same Margman sire.

These are not high drive dogs for work. Again, I see very low thresholds for stress in just learning simple foundation obedience tasks. I see dogs that you have to work your butt off to get to work in obedience with low food drive. Dogs that won't engage or grip. That stuff is all genetic.

Good pets. Not working dogs.

So you say you want a dog for work but the first word of your response is "No" when I asked if you wanted a working dog. Not a working line...but a working dog. So again, if the above in your response is what you want, and you like the LC blacks, why not look at a working lines that will give you the appropriate drives that you want.

If you want to continue with this breeding then you need to make the breeder prove to you that these dogs have food drive, biddability and drive to work. That they can handle simple stress like teaching new obedience exercises.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

r3tro23 said:


> No, I'm looking for SL at the moment. Based off Dam's side, I'm assuming the lack of titles, convinces you this line is not impressive for work? Just curious as I'm still learning pedigree's.
> 
> I am looking to potential work the dog, but lots of obedience and training/trainability. I particularly want high drive for the work


You are totally contradicting yourself.

The pedigree is showline - so you get an oddity - a black showline.....somehow the black recessive seems to have been captured from 10-12 generations back - if the pedigrees are to be believed....


So - you are getting what you say you want.


But what you say you want to do??? While it is a lottery ticket - I would say - No - you are NOT getting trainability, high drive........or ability to accept any stress in training - not in obedience, not in protection....typical showlines will show some drive, but it cannot be molded, structured, shaped or corrected without the dog just giving up....I have not personally seen any individuals from this Russian kennel....but have seen many showline dogs....a few with alot of aggression who can do bitework, but out of anger and not particularly correct or controllable.

You will be getting a pretty coated pet IMO...not a dog to do any sport or activity with.

sorry - just my experience watching many many many showlines in both schutzhund and in AKC obedience/rally


Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It is rumored that the Russian showline blacks are a dominant black gene which in turn leads to more rumors.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Margman lines are dominant black. That is not a rumor. I've seen the progeny.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> No. I didn't look at the pedigree. I'm going off of personal experience with the line and what I've seen in person from different females, same Margman sire.
> 
> These are not high drive dogs for work. Again, I see very low thresholds for stress in just learning simple foundation obedience tasks. I see dogs that you have to work your butt off to get to work in obedience with low food drive. Dogs that won't engage or grip. That stuff is all genetic.
> 
> ...


Interesting, my dog I would not say has a ton of food drive. But he is so easy to teach, practice, compete in obedience. It seems to come really naturally and easily to him. I am sure he is not a high drive dog. I wonder what the difference is. When I go to train sometimes he will pick up an exercise and start better than what we finished last time, like he has been thinking about it on his own time which I am sure isn't possible. 

He is super super biddable and has a lot of desire to do what I want and he is incredibly honest--if he knows how to do it right he will.

I think the act of figuring out what I want and doing it is its own reward to him ?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Looking at the progeny photos of sire - some black, some black and red....go to his second dam....

Pictures of progenies for V Vita v. Nord Traum IPO-1

Mostly black - but some black and red too.....


Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Interesting, my dog I would not say has a ton of food drive. But he is so easy to teach, practice, compete in obedience. It seems to come really naturally and easily to him. I am sure he is not a high drive dog. I wonder what the difference is. When I go to train sometimes he will pick up an exercise and start better than what we finished last time, like he has been thinking about it on his own time which I am sure isn't possible.
> 
> He is super super biddable and has a lot of desire to do what I want and he is incredibly honest--if he knows how to do it right he will.
> 
> I think the act of figuring out what I want and doing it is its own reward to him ?


I'm not sure the correlation between the dogs of the Margman line that I've seen and yours? All dogs are different. My post was directly related to this specific line.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I'm not sure the correlation between the dogs of the Margman line that I've seen and yours? All dogs are different. My post was directly related to this specific line.


Correlation just that he isn't a working line dog and doesn't have much food drive. He is not even remotely related to the Margman line I would assume. 

maybe I interpreted what you said wrong-- that not much food drive was contributing to the handlers having to work super hard to teach these dogs obedience?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Correlation just that he isn't a working line dog and doesn't have much food drive. He is not even remotely related to the Margman line I would assume.
> 
> maybe I interpreted what you said wrong-- that not much food drive was contributing to the handlers having to work super hard to teach these dogs obedience?


Again, I was talking specifically about the Margman line puppies I saw. I'm not going down the rabbit hole of generalizing to all show lines. If your dog works with no food drive, that's great.


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## Vom Pfeilspitzen Land (Jul 19, 2020)

It all depends in what you're looking for... to say that Margaret dogs do not work is a misnomer. Margman Yan, Russian champion, and narcotics detection dog, appears to be a working dog. A lot of the dogs on the Pedigree have IPO titles. A V rating requires an IPO1 and a V requires a IPO 2.

All modern black SL dogs seem to go back to Vita v Bird Train. The recessive LC gene is more random. I have a Margman female, Margman Pepper , and she is an extraordinary well-trained and tempered dog. I purchased as a breeding near adult from a German and she's a bit of a throwback. Father is Margman Yes and mother is a daughter of Baltic and Russian Champion Margman Torsten. A Timo v Berrekasten son. I attached an image of a 7--month old daughter of hers, out OFA Quoran D'Ulmental son. Now, if you want "a working dog", be prepared to cope with its need to do something with it as constantly as necessary for his mental well being. Y litter Margman dogs have VA1 SWE Sieger 2015 Conbhairean Uno SCHH3. A dog well known for his working ability. And not wanting to generalize, but training should be tailored to the dog in order to achieve the result. Some dogs will work for food, others for toy, or even praise/play. 

I own 2 Arlett females and a Couple of females with a lot of Kirschental, and the Margman female is probably easier to live with. Has all the drives and tools. They're just not as overt as with the others. I hope this helps your decision making process.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Since this was originally posted - last May - I have been at a conformation show/koer and actually saw a black SL pup whose pedigree went to the Margman kennel dogs.....and also did some research on the "dominant" black genetics coming from there that is showing up now in the SL dogs through this kennel.

I still stand behind the difference in working drive and ability to work correctly/trainability of the SL vs the WL - in general....there are always exceptions in both working and show line animals ....but a true representation of type will follow the majority 

Lee


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I looked into Margman yan earlier this year when I saw some litters from him. The videos I saw from his tab weren’t bad. He did not have the best grip from what I saw and looked uncomfortable in front of the helper when guarding. If I was looking for a pet or a less over the top dog I may have done it. I wouldn’t consider it if I was trying to compete beyond a club level, or serious protection work. He is a very nice dog though.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've seen these russian blacks mentioned in the forums a few times so I did a quick study. This seems to be at least one of the origins (the only/earliest photo I can find). Bad angle w/ the camera, sepia leaves a lot to the imagination in terms of color, and I won't even go into the well documented activities of soviet kynologists in that era. I will say the stop looks a little extreme for those days, and something about the neck/chest/shoulders hint at draught influence/s. Might just be the angle of the camera, but this dog looks somewhat short coupled for a gsd? 

I like it


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've seen these russian blacks mentioned in the forums a few times so I did a quick study. This seems to be at least one of the origins (the only/earliest photo I can find). Bad angle w/ the camera, sepia leaves a lot to the imagination in terms of color, and I won't even go into the well documented activities of soviet kynologists in that era. I will say the stop looks a little extreme for those days, and something about the neck/chest/shoulders hint at draught influence/s. Might just be the angle of the camera, but this dog looks somewhat short coupled for a gsd?
> 
> I like it


Do you think some kind of Laika went into that?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've seen these russian blacks mentioned in the forums a few times so I did a quick study. This seems to be at least one of the origins (the only/earliest photo I can find). Bad angle w/ the camera, sepia leaves a lot to the imagination in terms of color, and I won't even go into the well documented activities of soviet kynologists in that era. I will say the stop looks a little extreme for those days, and something about the neck/chest/shoulders hint at draught influence/s. Might just be the angle of the camera, but this dog looks somewhat short coupled for a gsd?
> 
> I like it


Oh that dog looks so much like my Luc when I first adopted him...I miss that dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

digging a little deeper into the russian peds here and I feel like I'm seeing a way above average numbers of unique ancestors. It's a mighty big country, far less centralized until recently. Very interesting stuff!


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## Vom Pfeilspitzen Land (Jul 19, 2020)

FWIW, Margman is an Estonian kennel. It is much favored by Russian buyers, but it is not Russian. Ditto for the Nord Traum females. The Margman dogs carry sable as well as black. Margman Torsten was a son of 2xVA2(BSZS) Timo v Berrekasten. Another dog favored in Russian pedigrees.

I agree that if you want to buy a WL type, you should do so. Personally, I like a dog that has good temperament, drive and appearance. And I'm not saying that WL dogs can't be aesthetic... Benny v Haus Pe-Ja, Javir v Talka Marda and others show that it is doable...


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