# It's gone from a minor problem to a major one



## GunnersMom

I don't know if I'm going to have any choice but to find Gunner a new home.
He just went after Riley in the house, for the first time, so it seems that the situation is getting worse. Maybe he's realized that he goes off, Riley backs down so therefore it's an effective strategy? What scares the **** out of me is what's going to happen the first time Riley decides to fight back.

Mom's home today and we just had a long talk about it - possible solutions, what we can do, etc. She danced around it for a while, but the bottom line, she finally admitted, is that she doesn't trust him anymore. She's afraid to leave them alone together and she won't be left alone _with_ them. She's afraid of them getting into it if she's here alone. Frankly, so am I because I know she couldn't handle it.

Keeping them separated really isn't an option. I'd be willing to do it if we could, but we don't have the room. Our house is very small. (Think apartment with a decent-sized yard.)

I just don't know what else we can do. It's killing me to even think about it. He's my big 'mama's boy' and I'd rather have someone rip my heart out than think about rehoming him. It'd be less painful. But I can see the reality of it. 
With me having to give them their exercise and their playtime separately, both are going to suffer since it takes twice the time. And if I can't leave the house and leave them alone with mom, it's just not going to work. Gunner needs and deserves more than that.

He's always been good with other dogs (except Riley.) He's good with cats, though he does occasionally give chase (half-heartedly.) He's very friendly and tolerant, though he can be a bit high-strung. He's never been around children, so I don't know if that would be a good situation. I think he'd be fine, though I would think older children might be better. He'll be 6 years old in November. Still has the energy of a younger dog, though. He's intact.

If anyone has any ideas or knows of a suitable home for him, where he can thrive and be happy, let me know. If anyone has questions, feel free to ask.


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## gagsd

My Kenju and Domingo don't get along at all. We just moved, but previously had a 850 sq. foot home, 4 people, 5 dogs and managed them.
I used crates and put up a separate run(s) as well as having the fenced backyard.

Good luck,


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## dd

Have you worked with a trainer who specialises in dog-to-dog aggression?


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## BlackGSD

I don't now the whole story but is Gunner a "newer" addition or have you had him for a long time? (As in LONGER than Riley.)


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## BowWowMeow

Have you taken him to the vet and had his thyroid checked?

You will have to neuter him before rehoming him and that could help so why not do that now and see if it makes a difference?

And I'm just curious but why is it Gunner that you're thinking about rehoming and not Riley?


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: ddHave you worked with a trainer who specialises in dog-to-dog aggression?


No. I called two trainers this morning, before the aggression even carried over into the house. One basically gave me the 'what did you expect from a German Shepherd' attitude. (A little shocking, coming from a trainer.) The other wanted me to leave Gunner with him for a week. Not the best solution for this situation, I wouldn't think.

What I'm afraid of, even if we hired a top-notch trainer, is that mom's too afraid now. We may be able to train Gunner... training HER is another issue.

That's what our house is - right about 900 sq. ft, or there abouts. It's tiny. I can't see how keeping them penned up and separated is good for either one of them. They'd both be miserable. As much as it hurts, I'd rather part with one of them than have them be unhappy here.
And moving isn't an option, either. I wish it were! If we didn't owe more than this house is worth, we'd do it in a heartbeat, but it's just not possible and won't be anytime in the forseeable future.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post807402

I think if it would be that hard to do, I would do the following first-
-Neuter and wait for the hormones to settle
-Crate and rotate and seperate when just mom is home
-Do a thyroid panel on him with his pre-anesthetic bloodwork
-Do NILIF hardcore
-Riley is beginning to be a male and it SOUNDS like (can't tell over the internets) Gunner doesn't have the confidence that he can contain him as he alpha peaks...
-Training with both boys to build that confidence

I don't know if you could do all that, but you could try it. 

ETA-no they would not be miserable because they would be with you.







So you need to have (pardon me for a minute) the biggest set in the house! When you take control, and feel that confidence coming through, and work on the relationship so that Gunner understands that you mean no and that he is making a big error in messing with that other dog...they will be estatic. The key is the relationship and building positive experiences so that they are reinforced by being good, and then understand the consequences when they are not. 

If they were girls, I might just tell you to cut their losses...but...I think there's more hope with males. 

Disclaimer-I could be wrong about all of this!


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## dd

> Quote:'what did you expect from a German Shepherd' attitude. (A little shocking, coming from a trainer.) The other wanted me to leave Gunner with him for a week.


Sorry, but these are not good trainers. I have been to an excellent trainer dealing in aggression, and the key part of the training is for the HUMANS in the mix.

I missed the bit where Gunner is intact. Are they both intact? I would agree that getting them neutered is important - too many hormones going on. I think stronger leadership and NILIF could help resolve these issues.

I'm sure you are aware that there are more dogs out there than good homes, so I hope you will try some things to resolve the situation before deciding to part with one of your dogs.


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## Myamom

the reality...a one year old Golden would get swooped up by rescue and adopted in a heartbeat.......

a 6 year old GSD with issues..........not....

I would suggest working with a trainer. 
I wish you luck.


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## BowWowMeow

Ok, I just read the other thread too. 

I agree 100% with Jean that you have a pack rank issue situation here and Gunner is not confident in his leadership abilities. That means YOU have to take over as the supreme leader. It sounds like you're doing that now but it will take a little while for it to get through to Gunner that things have changed and he no longer has to worry about leading the pack.


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## ellen366

hi deni
in my many years of experience, sometimes dogs just don't like one another; i've had this happen before, despite my best efforts

i've kept them separated, alternating time in the crate w/time loose in the house w/the other dogs; i finally got tired of that, and feeling guilty, so i muzzled the 2 that didn't get along and over time, they learned to live w/one another peacefully; in the end, i could remove muzzles and they didn't try to kill one another; this is a very slow process and believe me, even w/muzzles on they'll try to fight; but, it's safer for me to wade in when they're muzzled...they didn't get hurt nor did i; keep in mind though that some dogs are smart and can easily remove a muzzle, so i used to take velcro and loop it attaching the back of the muzzle strap w/the dog's flat collar

good luck


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## Daisy1986

Calm down and take a deep breath. You are getting SUPER GOOD advice on here! I agree with what Jean said. 

I have 3 dogs there are little tiffs every once in a while as they rally for position when you bring in a new this happens. Even more that Shadow is going into teen yrs. (he is neutered). He still is respecting my older girls authority though. 

If it gets out of hand, where there is biting involved, I step in and down them both or if one was more guilty than the other, just have them lay down until they stop and the panting stops, until they are calm. Take control of the situation. 
And kennel when he is alone with your Mom until you neuter, train, etc. If the problem is more your Mom (not willing to partic, in training), then new arrangements might need to be made...like living separately if you can.


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## GunnersMom

I've read the suggestions (and questions) about rehoming Riley, instead. Not going to happen. I threw it out there when mom and I were talking about this. I said 'the other option is to find Riley a new home...' and she burst into tears. Don't get me wrong - she loves Gunner but parting with Riley would kill her. I know she'd resent Gunner if we did that. Not intentionally - she wouldn't want to - but I know she would.




> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowOk, I just read the other thread too.
> 
> I agree 100% with Jean that you have a pack rank issue situation here and Gunner is not confident in his leadership abilities. That means YOU have to take over as the supreme leader. It sounds like you're doing that now but it will take a little while for it to get through to Gunner that things have changed and he no longer has to worry about leading the pack.


We definitely have pack rank issues here. No denying that. And yes, we've started to work on that. What scares me is that it seems to be getting worse, not better. I didn't expect to see results overnight. I know it takes time. But I didn't expect it to start getting worse.


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## dd

One thing in dealing with problems like this - in my experience it isn't a smooth ride. You expect you're going to see improvements and that the curve is UP. Sometimes it isn't - sometimes they backslide, they have a bad moods (just like people), they have more stubborn days and less stubborn days. So don't get discouraged.


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## GunnersMom

_Calm down and take a deep breath._

I'm trying to do just that. Not having much luck. 




> Originally Posted By: ellen366hi deni
> in my many years of experience, sometimes dogs just don't like one another; i've had this happen before, despite my best efforts
> 
> i've kept them separated, alternating time in the crate w/time loose in the house w/the other dogs; i finally got tired of that, and feeling guilty, so i muzzled the 2 that didn't get along and over time, they learned to live w/one another peacefully; in the end, i could remove muzzles and they didn't try to kill one another; this is a very slow process and believe me, even w/muzzles on they'll try to fight; but, it's safer for me to wade in when they're muzzled...they didn't get hurt nor did i; keep in mind though that some dogs are smart and can easily remove a muzzle, so i used to take velcro and loop it attaching the back of the muzzle strap w/the dog's flat collar
> 
> good luck


Man, I don't know. Maybe I'm totally missing the point, here, but I can't see where keeping them muzzled and/or crated all the time is a good life for either one of them. As much as it hurts me, I can't help but think that he'd be happier in another home than having to live like that.


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## BowWowMeow

Is Riley expected to follow all of the new rules too? 

For example, if I have a space (doorway, stairs, etc.) issue with pushing or anything competitive or nasty then I take total control of that space. No one goes outside until everyone is sitting and focused on me. Same goes with the stairs or any other tight space. All dogs have the same rules until everyone gets that I am making all of the decisions.


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## GunnersMom

_Is Riley expected to follow all of the new rules too? _

Absolutely. I've been more strict with him, from day one, than I ever have been with Gunner. I said in that other thread that I've always given Gunner a lot of lattitude because he's always been such a good boy. I've never given Riley much lattitude. I know what it's like to deal with a stubborn, exuberant Golden. Not fun.


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## Borrelli21

I do not have much advice here but







to you..either way, its a tough decision... Good luck in whatever you decide...


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: WBorrelliI do not have much advice here but
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to you..either way, its a tough decision... Good luck in whatever you decide...


Thank you! 
This is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. I'd love to give it time and try to work it out. I'd love nothing more! But to do that, I have to risk one of them getting hurt in the meantime and I couldn't live with that.


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## littledmc17

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowOk, I just read the other thread too.
> 
> I agree 100% with Jean that you have a pack rank issue situation here and Gunner is not confident in his leadership abilities. That means YOU have to take over as the supreme leader. It sounds like you're doing that now but it will take a little while for it to get through to Gunner that things have changed and he no longer has to worry about leading the pack.


Agreed!! And get a trainer to come to your house too help.


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## Sashmom

I wish you lived closer
I lost my Sashi a little over a mo ago and I miss him so much. 
OH kind of far from me though Gunner doesnt sound that bad, just mayb needs to be the only dog in the house.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: SashmomI wish you lived closer
> I lost my Sashi a little over a mo ago and I miss him so much.
> OH kind of far from me though Gunner doesnt sound that bad, just mayb needs to be the only dog in the house.


Oh, Gunner isn't bad at all. He's _such_ a good dog. But I think that's it - he probably does need to be the only dog in the house. I think he'd be much happier.


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## Chris Wild

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like there is anything wrong with Gunner and I don't believe he has uncontrollable aggression issues or anything of the sort. Seems to me that what you have here is quite normal and honestly, in more cases than not, it is to be expected in a household with 2 intact males. Especially when one is entering adulthood and reaching the stage where he will test the waters with regards to rank, and the other of whom is feeling threatened in his position because of that.

I agree that neutering both is a good first step. This can help tone things down tremendously.

Management is also key. Training and NILF for both, are good steps. But there are other things you have to do to manage it. First, support Gunner in his position of higher ranking dog. He eats first, gets attention first, gets to go outside first, gets to play first. This will help Gunner feel more secure in his rank, and thus less likely to feel that he needs to defend it, and will also show Riley that you support Gunner's position. If Riley tries to push the envelope and get away with things, the HUMANS should step in and put him in his place before Gunner feels he has to.

Be aware that most dominance scuffles will occur over resources.. food, toys, attention from the people. In some cases, those can be avoided. Don't feed them together, feed them separate. Don't have high value toys just lying around as something that can spur an argument between the dogs over who has the right to them. When it comes to playing or interacting with both dogs, step up to the plate and determine who's turn it is, and enforce that. In addition to training, having a good trainer or behaviorist come to the home to watch them interact, survey the home environment and watch the people interact with the dogs may be very beneficial in helping the people recognize how they can prevent confrontation by identifying and removing potential hot spots and being able to read each dog's body language to know when something might happen and allow you to intervene before it can escalate. There is much that can be done by the humans in the household to manage this by preventing situations where Riley can overstep his bounds and where Gunner may feel forced to reinforce his position, but you may need help from someone else who can actually see what is going on and point out some of the subtle things you may be missing in order to learn to be able to do that.

When they can't be closely supervised by someone who isn't afraid to do so, keep them separated in different areas of the house or by using crates.


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## ellen366

i didn't like the crating time issue either; so, i decided to use the muzzles while i worked w/them; all of my dogs are trained to accept muzzles so that if they need one at the vet's they're not too distressed by it; in my experience, they quickly acclimate to the muzzles (we used to train our police k9s w/muzzles too) and don't mind wearing them; btw, i'm talking about the basket style muzzles, like the greyhounds wear; they can pant, bark, open their mouths and drink w/these on; while wearing the muzzles the 2 problem dogs have a chance to be around one another and work out their issues w/o biting one another and injuring each other

it's your choice; i just threw it out there as yet another option; i fully support a vet check to rule out an organic reason and training; but, as i said, some dogs just don't like one another, a lot like people and although i supervise my dogs, i can't watch them 100% of the time w/100% of my attention and things will happen


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## Dano

While training him and modifying his behavior, I suggest a muzzle. They are bound to get into it before and training or behavior modification sets in and you don't need vet bills or injured dogs. 

It is a fixable problem and you should not give up. A dog behaviorist rather than a trainer should be able to come to your home, experience your home dynamics and deal with the problem. It's a matter of seeing what is really happening in your home. Any and all dogs are able to get along with one another under the same roof. In my book, there is no situation of your kind that can not be dealt with.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowAnd I'm just curious but why is it Gunner that you're thinking about rehoming and not Riley?


That is what I was wondering too. Especially since it seems like he was FINE until Riley entered the picture and became an obnoxious bully!

It is sad that we can't upset "mom", but YOU can be expected to get rid of a perfectly good dog because the "golden child" is a jerk! 

I really hope you are able to work something out and keep Gunner.


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## BlackGSD

Deni,

PLEASE don't think I am "blaming" you. I think if your mom is SO adamant about NOT getting rid of Riley, she NEEDS to "step up" and do some of the care and TRAINING. (Unless of course she has a physical reason that she can't.) 

Are both boys "yours" or is Riley your moms dog?


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: ellen366i didn't like the crating time issue either; so, i decided to use the muzzles while i worked w/them; all of my dogs are trained to accept muzzles so that if they need one at the vet's they're not too distressed by it; in my experience, they quickly acclimate to the muzzles (we used to train our police k9s w/muzzles too) and don't mind wearing them; btw, i'm talking about the basket style muzzles, like the greyhounds wear; they can pant, bark, open their mouths and drink w/these on; while wearing the muzzles the 2 problem dogs have a chance to be around one another and work out their issues w/o biting one another and injuring each other


Do you have a link or something, so I can see what kind of muzzle you're talking about? I'm picturing the regular old can't-open-their-mouths-at-all type of muzzle. If this is one where he can function normally AND not hurt Riley while we're working on solving the problem, it might just work.

And BlackGSD - I love sarcastic, not-the-least-bit helpful remarks as much as anyone. But if all you're going to do is insult me, my mother and my other dog, kindly stay out of the conversation.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDDeni,
> 
> PLEASE don't think I am "blaming" you. I think if your mom is SO adamant about NOT getting rid of Riley, she NEEDS to "step up" and do some of the care and TRAINING. (Unless of course she has a physical reason that she can't.)
> 
> Are both boys "yours" or is Riley your moms dog?


I'm sorry, but it did sound like you were blaming me. I don't do well with sarcasm. And I'm sorry I snapped before seeing this post.

No, both dogs belong to both of us.
It's not that she doesn't WANT to try training to keep Gunner. She loves him as much as I do. She's just afraid.


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## GSDOwner2008

GunnersMom, I don't think BlackGSD meant to insult you, but meant to question the fairness of getting rid of one dog or the other. I'm not speaking for BlackGSD, I am just saying what I got out of it.

I think Chris and Jean are right. With training, NILIF, and management, I see no reason to get rid of either dog. If you are interested in muzzles, here is a website for good quality ones: 

http://www.fordogtrainers.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=233

The one we have for our boys is at the very top, but they are more and different types, such as a wired basket muzzle.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Is there a reason BOTH males are intact??


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## lars0997

Here are my thoughts and I'm sorry it's opinionated, but this thread makes me sad.

It seems to be that many people have been giving you perfectly good suggestions and I'm interpreting your posts as excuses why they won't work (or not addressing them). 

In my house we separate dogs (we have three - two females, and a male - some intact) every day for various reasons (dogs in season, reduce chaos







, etc.) . Keep the dogs separate (buy some baby gates and crates), see if it works, the worse thing that would happen, is that it doesn't work and you have to decide what to do in 6 months. I train my dogs separate, walk them separate, etc., I guess I don't see what the issue is. My house is small too. Maybe people on the list in your area could suggest a good trainer?

Dogs are not disposable, because you decided to get a puppy. Do you have a plan for how to re-home Gunner? 

I understand when sport people will sometimes sell a dog, because it doesn't work out for his or her training aspirations, etc. (not something that I would do personally, but I understand it), but I don't understand getting rid of a 6 yr. old dog for behavioral issues when there are still avenues to pursue to make it work. Especially if you have had Gunner for years (not sure what the history is).

I'm sorry you are in a hard situation (I do realize that this must be hard for you as well), but I feel bad for Gunner.


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## rjvamp

Such a difficult situation. I would suggest that the Alpha must be you and the others must be subordinate. I am a bit concerned that a new dog has come into the mix and the old one might have to leave. That, in my opinion, is not a fair choice for the one who has been there the longest.

Training is needed as well as surgery to reduce the hormone issue going on that can spur this kind of behavior.

In the end, the two can learn to get along. My shiba and my dauschuand speak w/out me knowing...but they learned to get along...and the weenie dog wins out  And yes - Louis, the weenie dog, has had stitches and meds for sore muscles for back and legs when my white GSD got sick of his crap and just nudged him under the bed. We made it work. But I never left them alone until I could trust they would be good with each other. That meant crates. 

I wish you the best in the decision you make. And if your mom is not trusting of the dog anymore, then it might be good if she helped out with the training to help build that trust back.


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## GSDOwner2008

Something I also didn't mention, is that I am the pack leader, I don't allow Apollo to be over Zeus, or think that he has authority over Zeus. I controll everything. Practicing a pack mentality might do you well, along with the NILIF and management and training. 

Matter of fact, Zeus and Apollo are walked seperately every day. They walk the same distance, but they listen better when they are seperate, than when they are together. They train seperate, they use the bathroom seperate. They play with each other a few times a day, and they are allowed to nap together, but if things go out of hand, they are seperated.


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## ellen366

try jb pet wholesale http://www.jbpet.com
they have plastic basket muzzles, pretty cheap
and leerburg http://www.leerburg.com
they have metal basket muzzles, more expensive, but will last longer

i have both and still like jb pet version; you'll just need to replace it more often; also, this is a bigger muzzle allowing the dog more mouth movement


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangIs there a reason BOTH males are intact??


Yes. We had wanted to wait until Riley was 18 months and mature before we alter him. (He'll be 15 months in a couple weeks, now.)
I never wanted to alter Gunner. I've always loved his drive and his energy and I never wanted to chance that being taken out of him.

_Dogs are not disposable, because you decided to get a puppy. Do you have a plan for how to re-home Gunner? _

Thanks for the lecture. Since you don't know me, I won't take the assumption personally.
I don't consider a dog I've had for almost 6 years to be "disposable." I've never considered ANY dog I've taken responsibility for and have brought into my home to be "disposable." 
I'm not looking for the easiest way out of a tough situation. NOTHING about this is easy.
Here's where I'm a bit opinionated. His happiness and well-being is more important to me than keeping him here, no matter what, at all costs to both of them. Yes, crates and baby gates are an option and I'm considering that. My concern with that is, I don't see how a dog who's had free run of the house, with us, his entire life is going to be happy suddenly being locked in a cage for a certain amount of time everyday, or banished to another room, away from us. I firmly believe that he would be happier in another home than he would be here, living like that. I'm trying to put the happiness and well-being of BOTH my dogs ahead of my own.
And yes, if worst comes to worst and he DOES have to be rehomed, I'll wait until I find the right home for him. I want to know where he'd be going and who he'd be going to. He WILL NOT be put in the paper or on Craigslist or anything like that. 

There's still the concern, even with the best training in the world, that Gunner could always go after him again, for whatever reason. Maybe most of you are used to that and can handle it. It scares the living **** out of me. And it scares the living **** out of my mom even worse. I could see it in her tonight. Every time the boys started to get a little active in the house, she was nervous as ****. If I could see it, I know the dogs could sense it and I fear that could make matters worse, as well. And all the judgment I'm getting here aside, I will not have my mom being completely stressed out all the time. She's not exactly a spring chicken anymore and I won't have it.

And as far as it not being fair for the older dog, who we've had longer, to be the one to go - you're right. It's not fair. Nothing about this is fair. We sat down tonight and hashed it out, including the possibility of rehoming Riley, instead. Even mom was willing to consider the idea and talk it out. The conclusion we came to is that it would be easier for Gunner to adjust to a new home than it would be for Riley. Gunner is less attached to US than Riley is. Gunner loves everyone and would be perfectly content with anyone who will throw a ball for him. Riley doesn't take to strangers too well. 

To those who are honestly trying to help, thank you. I appreciate it more than you know and I'm not blowing off ANY suggestions. I'm trying to respond to everything here as best I can, right now, but I'm writing things down and I'm considering everything. Every option - even if I don't directly respond to it. I'm not one to do something drastic. We're going to take a step back, look at everything and see where we are.


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## Daisy1986

OK, I had to go back and read the beginning of your orignal post, because I am just not getting all the hype. No blood has been drawn? 
Don't get me wrong. Shadow is a big silly goof right now, I have never seen any aggression out of him, it would scare me silly if he went after Lady or Bella. This may yet happen in my house as he is hitting the teen years, he may rally for Lady's position. (OR does it happen like that? OR once it is established is that just the way it is? Lady is like his MOM? Chris would know more). 

Listen to Jean, re read Chris Wild's posts. This is good advice. 

I honor the ranking in my home. We are alfa, Lady is a sub alfa, Bella, then Shadow, because he is young and last in the house. Also because that is the way it is naturally. I feed Lady first, I do not correct her when she corrects Shadow, there is no blood, she does not hurt him, (that is what sounds like happened with Gunner and Riley at the door). Lady disaplines Shadow, she is 7 he is 1. If he is barking at the fence and I say hey quiet down and he does not, Lady goes up and gives him a nose to the neck and the high shrill bark. She has defended the cat. 

When we found Bella (our Beagle) off the hwy and brought her in the house, my 4 yr old son was playing with her after she had been here a bit. She growls like she means business when she is playing tug of war, Lady did not trust her yet and back her away from my son. 

Gunner is establishing rank and teaching a younger dog. 

I hope this all works out for you. It would be a shame for Gunner to lose his home.


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## Daisy1986

One more thing. Neuter, neuter, neuter, please. 

If you are not a professional breeder or pro anything for these guys to have an outlet please.....









He may lose his home and it might be over a simple surgery or the health issues Jean mentioned!!


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## lars0997

I don't believe that I implied that it was easy.

I do get sensitive about people rehoming their dogs due getting a new puppy (maybe the new family decides it doesn't work out and drops the puppy off at rescue, etc.). If not done properly, it can gives HSUS more fuel for them to lobby for legislating MY DOGS. It sounds like you are only looking for the perfect home for Gunner (not in the above situation), so you might have a considerable amount of time to try out separation to see if it fits into your lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with crating your dogs - I would guess that most forum members crate their dogs, my dogs are certainly happy. You should try it to see if Gunner and Riley really get as depressed as you anticipate (if they aren't already crate trained, you will need to do so). Of course you will still need to put effort in exercise, training, interaction with you etc.

I'm sorry if took my earlier comments as lecturing, you posted on a public forum and I was just expressing my opinions.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: WetroskyI don't believe that I implied that it was easy.
> 
> I do get sensitive about people rehoming their dogs due getting a new puppy (maybe the new family decides it doesn't work out and drops the puppy off at rescue, etc.). If not done properly, it can gives HSUS more fuel for them to lobby for legislating MY DOGS. It sounds like you are only looking for the perfect home for Gunner (not in the above situation), so you might have a considerable amount of time to try out separation to see if it fits into your lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with crating your dogs - I would guess that most forum members crate their dogs, my dogs are certainly happy. You should try it to see if Gunner and Riley really get as depressed as you anticipate (if they aren't already crate trained, you will need to do so). Of course you will still need to put effort in exercise, training, interaction with you etc.
> 
> I'm sorry if took my earlier comments as lecturing, you posted on a public forum and I was just expressing my opinions.


I understand. I get sensitive about that, too. I could strangle (quite literally) those who walk into pet stores and buy a puppy because it's cute, only to drop it off at a shelter two weeks later because it won't stop peeing on the precious carpeting. Or just simply decide that they didn't really want a dog. I understand that. And not knowing ME, I can understand where that kind of thought would surface pretty quickly. 
And yeah, I'm a little overly-sensitive right now. My nerves are shot and my emotions are a little raw, so I'm sure I'm probably being a little defensive. Bear with me! 

No, there hasn't been any blood drawn. Yet. I'm pretty sure there might have been had I not gotten ahold of Gunner. It was still noise when I stepped in. I've seen Gunner discipline Riley and that doesn't bother me. I've stayed out of that. (Maybe that's helped the problem escalate, I don't know.) What scares me is when he really goes after him, and for no apparent reason. (I know HE has a reason, but it's not a very good or a very obvious one.)
I have to ask myself, is it fair to Riley to wait until there IS blood drawn? 

I will have to _try_ the separation and/or crating regardless of what the eventual outcome ends up being. So yeah, we'll at least have the chance to see how it goes. I think he's going to be miserable and unhappy, but he might surprise me. You never know. I think Riley will be okay with a crate. I'm sure he'll think 'Oh no, not that damned thing again...!" but he'll deal. He's less squirrelly than Gunner in that respect.

Now he did have a complete blood work-up done a couple weeks ago. He'd had a minor little bout with diarrhea and even though I was 99.99% sure what the cause was (slight change in his diet) I wanted to play it safe. He's getting older and I figured it would be a good idea to see where everything was, anyway. Everything came back perfectly normal. Is there something else not included in that blood work-up that I should have them look at??


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## Katerlena

This sounds like such a difficult situation but you are doing the right thing but getting lots of good advice on this forum so that you and your Mom can make all the right decisions.

Years ago I did experience some problems with dog aggression in my 2 females when we introduced a third dog into the pack so it must have changed the pack dynamic. (I am not very alpha so that didn’t help things). I sought advice from my vet and a dog trainer and the feedback reflected what others have posted here. 

Like your Mom I did find it extremely frightening to see aggression (especially in my adored furry babies!) but the majority of it was just bluff. As my females got older they mellowed more and we managed OK but now my main requirement in a future GSD family member is that they have a very soft temperament (although I guess that doesn’t guarantee anything)

Although there hasn’t been any blood drawn you are wise to step in and try to curb this behavior before it escalates. If I understand correctly from your posts it sounds like you and your Mom are a bit scared right now—which is perfectly understandable. Maybe it will help you both to understand better where Gunner is coming from—i.e. that he's not all of a sudden being a mean aggressive dog but just doing the dog pack thing-which is something maybe a good trainer or your vet can help you with—and of course there are so many great GSD experts on this web sites that you can get insight from

I do hope all works out well for you, your Mom, Gunner and Riley.


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## elfwofle

I would at the least try out a basket muzzel, I had gotten one for my previous GSD when she was learning to be home alone and it was so she could not cew things up in the house but she could eat and drink. I was fortunate enough to get mine in germany (much cheaper than what Leerburg sells his for), but here is the type we have http://leerburg.com/704.htm

I am going to have to dust off my basket muzzle because my current GSD (Gazira) about one to two weeks before she goes into heat will go after our female mix, and has cause her to get stitches! Not fun at all, so I know what you mean about a dog fight being scary. I also rotate my dogs (I have 4 dogs and sometimes a foster dog too) between outside and in a crate (the crate is mostly for when I leave the house) when Gazira is in heat, during this time, the two females are kept seperate unless in the house. I do not allow any playing in the house, all my dogs know to take the playing outside.

I believe that with Riley being only about 15 months old, he is probably testing Gunner for the alpha slot. I have an 11 month old pup who is doing the same thing. My other male is having to puthim in his place, and I have noticed that he is getting a bit tougher on him for it too. This is something that they must work out, I do not step in unless it gets to rough. Each dog must have a slot in the "totum pole", for mine (of course I am at the very top) it is Gazira (f, intact, 2.5yrs), Max (m, alt, 2.5 yrs), Molly (f, alt, 1.5yrs), Mr Piddles (m, alt, 11 mos). Granted, two dogs is a bit easier than four or five, but it can seem like alot when they are not getting along. I would deffinately suggest at the very least the basket muzzle, because (for one it wouldnt take up room like a crate) even if they were to ge into it, they coul not harm each other, and eventually learn to get over ther problem. Gunner may not seem as attached to you as Riley, but I bet he would really miss you and not understand what is going on if he were rehomed. (wow, I typed alot more than I thought I would, this little box really hides it all, lol) I hope a solution can be found.


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## nova

Hello, I am sorry as this may seem mean,But i have read this entire post and to me you seem to have a come back on every good advice given to you. You dont seem to have any want or desire to keep Gunner,from reading your posts.People have given you great great advice on here!

You say,
"I have to ask myself, is it fair to Riley to wait until there IS blood drawn? 

And I say..is it fair for Gunner to loose his mom of yrs for a "newbie"? Is it fair for him to get kicked out of the only home he knows?

I am sorry But I am highly upset by reading this,and to me I feel so sorry for Gunner! A older dog who is probably wondering himself who just stole his spot!Wich is why he is lashing out,I dont blame him I would too. Dogs can feel you, can feel emotions and know when things are not right.

I have had dogs my whole life and I would never even dream of getting rid of a companion of yrs for any newbie(no matter who else cryed about it).

Poor Gunner!


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## Qyn

Good trainers will give you the tools to handle this kind of aggression but it is up to you and your mother to be willing to implement the changes needed to achieve this. I know because I did not think I needed to do certain things but even though I was resistant to certain theories, they do work and little changes do make a difference.. 

When there are problems of this nature it is a product of the dog's nature and the humans ability to meet the dogs need for leadership. Insecure dogs need strong leadership - this does not mean you need to dominate your dog just that you need to demonstrate to the dog that you will be the one to make the decisions both to protect your dog, your property or whatever. When the dog looks to you to fulfill this role a lot of the problems disappear.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMomHere's where I'm a bit opinionated. His happiness and well-being is more important to me than keeping him here, no matter what, at all costs to both of them. Yes, crates and baby gates are an option and I'm considering that. My concern with that is, I don't see how a dog who's had free run of the house, with us, his entire life is going to be happy suddenly being locked in a cage for a certain amount of time everyday, or banished to another room, away from us. I firmly believe that he would be happier in another home than he would be here, living like that. I'm trying to put the happiness and well-being of BOTH my dogs ahead of my own.


I think in many ways this is applying human emotions to a dog. A dog's greatest fear, and the greatest trauma it can ever experience, is being booted out of the pack. If you could ask them, I think most dogs would rather undergo changes within their existing home, even if that means spending some time each day isolated, than go to a new home.

Also, if one dog has to be rehomed, why not Riley? It would seem to me easier to find a suitable home for a 15mo Golden than a 6yo GSD, especially if the reason the GSD is being rehomed is "aggression".

Though as I said, I don't see this as something that can't be worked through with some training and management on the part of the humans and dogs in the family. While I know scuffles between dogs can be scary, the fact that no blood has been drawn yet tells me that you have not experienced a real dog fight, but rather a few dog arguments. And the fact that these arguments are sporadic tells me that this is not a case of 2 dogs who hate each other, but rather 2 intact males trying to sort out their ranking now that the younger is coming of age. These aren't serious fights. They may become so without intervention, or the dogs might work it out amongst themselves after a few more spats and be done with it. Either way, at this point the situation is far from hopeless if you're willing to put in the time and effort to work through it.


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## Avamom

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI think in many ways this is applying human emotions to a dog. A dog's greatest fear, and the greatest trauma it can ever experience, is being booted out of the pack.


Please read and reread this statement, I believe this to be so true. 

I know you love Gunner and Riley and can see from your posts that you just want everyone happy. Its very scary to see your beloved dogs fight, and I'm sure you mother is scared also. But, I say this with the utmost respect, you and your mother have got to toughen up. In order to have a happy safe household again, you both have to put your fears aside and try some of the wonderful advice you've gotten on this board from very experienced people, just to mention two...you have Jean who has worked WONDERS with various dogs in her home and Chris who is a WELL respected breeder and trainer. Look at the packs they run in their household, wow, I mean wow, they have some experience....listen to them, their advice is priceless. 

If you don't try, I think you will regret it. I can tell from you posts that this is tearing you up and I think this will cause a saddness in you to lose Gunner and maybe a rift between you and your mother if you give up to soon. Try not to put your emotions on Gunner and Riley....dogs LIVE for their owners, for Gunner to lose YOU would be more traumatic than a few weeks or months of losing a few house privledges. Its kind of like when you were a kid and your mom told you NO to something that was for your own good...its seemed like the end of the world and probably hurt your mom to see you cry but it was for the best, lessons were learned and everyone still loved everyone.

Dogs need boundaries, they want to know their places in the pack...sometimes that means losing privledges but they don't get their feelings hurt the same way we do. If you truly try and really give it time for the new rules and boundaries to work and you still can't make it work, then look into rehoming again...I know this is easier for me to say than to do, but what if it does work, wouldn't it be wonderful for you to be able to keep Riley and Gunner and have a happy household again. If there is a chance, why not try?


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## daniella5574

Gunnersmom, I know this tears you up, but please believe the statement of Chris about the fear of losing their home. My female Vita has been with me since she was 12 weeks old. She is the one I have to watch more than any of my adopted rescues. SHE is the one with wanna be in charge issues. Something I have to work on every single day in my home to make sure there is clear, consistent, boundaries and leadership by ME. She is the only one who does not seem to enjoy playing outside with the others, and gets snarky with some of my pack outdoors. Inside it isnt so bad but she has her moments of posturing which I am right there to correct. She is so attached to me, I know it would absolutely devastate her to lose the only home she has ever known and family she loved. There is lots of good advice here, and this is something that can definately be worked on.


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## Chris Wild

I just want to add, there is a point of diminishing returns where the changes that would be required to manage the existing home would be worse for the dog than being rehomed. In those cases the temporary trauma of moving homes is worth it. But I don't think that is the case here, at least not at this stage and with only 2 dogs. There are just too many other things that should be tried first.


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## BowWowMeow

I just thought of it this moment but I have had these problems with Chama _every time_ I've brought in a new adoptee or foster. She turns into a nasty monster! She screams at the other dog, snaps at them, lunges, becomes space and food aggressive, etc. She has always been an insecure dog (she's an omega) and now that she's older she's more vulnerable and she knows it. I work hard to reinforce her higher (than the other dog) pack status in order to reassure her that she won't be displaced. I feed her first, give her her treats first, allow her to go down the stairs first, etc. And I also make it clear to her that I won't tolerate bullying or nasty behavior (from either dog), etc. During the first week she always acts out, sometimes going after strange dogs on walks, etc. I have to watch her like a hawk! She does get worse before she gets better. 

But after a week or two the new dog settles in, Chama is reassured of her place and the pack is tranquil again.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI just want to add, there is a point of diminishing returns where the changes that would be required to manage the existing home would be worse for the dog than being rehomed. In those cases the temporary trauma of moving homes is worth it. But I don't think that is the case here, at least not at this stage and with only 2 dogs. There are just too many other things that should be tried first.


That's my biggest concern - what's best for Gunner. Yes, I'm concerned about Riley, too. I'm concerned about Riley's physical safety and well-being and I'm concerned about Gunner's emotional well-being. I just have to figure out the best way to balance the two.

_Hello, I am sorry as this may seem mean,But i have read this entire post and to me you seem to have a come back on every good advice given to you. You dont seem to have any want or desire to keep Gunner,from reading your posts.People have given you great great advice on here!_

Not the case, AT ALL. I've said (more than once) that I'm not dismissing ANY advice given here. A lot of this is me thinking out loud. I read a piece of advice and think "Okay. But..." if I have questions or concerns. Doesn't mean I'm blowing it off - I'm just trying to think from all angles and cover all concerns. That's why I wanted to know more about the muzzles. It's an option.

A couple things I wanted to ask about, concerning the use of baby gates or crate/crates.
First of all... since both dogs probably wouldn't be crated at the same time, is it okay to use one crate? Or should they have their own? 
Secondly - when we have to leave the dogs home alone (which is never for very long - couple hours) is it smart to crate only one of them and let the other have their freedom, or will this create confusion for them? If it's okay to crate only one - which one? Riley was crate trained when he was a puppy, so he's at least experienced it before. Gunner never has. Ever. So I'm thinking that it might be better to go back to crating Riley than throw Gunner a huge curve??

We're looking for a trainer in this area that might actually know what they're doing. The one woman I had called was a complete idiot. The fact that she trains dogs is just downright scary, since she seems to have the opinion that all GSDs are potentially vicious. And I don't think that sending him away for training will solve the problem in the home. To me, it seems like that has to be worked out, well... in the home. So we're looking.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I just came back to this thread-glad you are still working at it.









I did want to say that if it ever came about that your mom was in danger than obviously you do what you have to do. Was just thinking of that. 

But I think, with those boys, only having two, that there is a great chance of success. 

Balls off!





















I always would tell male fosters that if they gave me any problems after that, you know what's coming off next.







I just want to stress this as part of your solution process. And not because I'm a crazy rescue person (even if I might be!). Kramer's neutered and has had great drive and enthusiasm his entire life. I don't know if it would have been greater had he not been neutered, but I think he was certainly able to focus on me more than other dogs. And he's not a dog given to listening to me-unless he wants to. But that has nothing to do with his anatomy or lack thereof.









For the crate, I am not sure. My dogs all know their own crates and if we switch it up for some reason they are all WHAT?!?!?! about it. 

I will be interested to read the other crate responses. But I would try to do things as evenly as possible. 

If you feel badly you could close Gunner off in a room as long as he couldn't get out. 

You could also get him a kennel like Carolina's dog Gala has, or one like I had for Nina. It's indoors but it's large. Very comfy. http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755438

One other thing is the part that positive reinforcement can play in all of this. Good things happen to me when I am around someone, I want to be around them acting in a way that gets me good things. Same with dogs. I do that with the cats-good to kitty = really great treats. 

I can't think of all the steps in shaping behaviors right now-but that's the essence of it. Keep on trucking! (where did that come from?)


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## hudak004

I cant offer any more advice that hasnt already been given, but did want to share that I had my male Bixler neutered at about 2.5 years old, and I had the same concerns about diminishing drive, since he doesnt have much to begin with! BUT, he hasnt changed whatsoever, at all, nothing!

I hope you can keep both of your dogs, I think youve gotten some great advice and that its definitely manageable if you work at it.

Im not downplaying what is happeneing with your boys, because I have no idea the severity, but sometimes Bix and Layla will get into a squabble that SOUNDS horrific, but in reality it isnt, they are just making a lot of noise, if you watch closely you can usually tell though.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI just came back to this thread-glad you are still working at it.
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> I did want to say that if it ever came about that your mom was in danger than obviously you do what you have to do. Was just thinking of that.
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> But I think, with those boys, only having two, that there is a great chance of success.
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> Balls off!
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> I always would tell male fosters that if they gave me any problems after that, you know what's coming off next.


LOL! Thank you for the laugh. Boy, I really needed that!! 
And yes, if I thought mom was in danger, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I love my boys, but she's my mom. I worry about her stress level, yeah, but I don't worry about any physical danger from Gunner (and certainly not from Riley.) Gunner would _never_ turn on her. I usually detest the word "never", but I'm comfortable using it in this instance. He looked like he wanted to kill Riley in that initial fight, and when I stepped between them to get ahold of his collar, he never gave me one indication that I was on his radar. He just snapped out of it and it was over. So I'm not concerned for her, in that respect.
But yeah... we're still truckin'.









_Im not downplaying what is happeneing with your boys, because I have no idea the severity, but sometimes Bix and Layla will get into a squabble that SOUNDS horrific, but in reality it isnt, they are just making a lot of noise, if you watch closely you can usually tell though. _

That's just it - we've never had to deal with so much as a little scuffle, before. We've always had males (most intact) my entire life and not one scuffle! (Boy, had we been lucky, by the sounds of it!) 
To me, it looks like Gunner really wants to tear into Riley, but Riley's been slippery enough to stay out of his grasp until I can get between them. So yeah, it's been a lot of noise so far and nothing else. But figuring out WHY it's been just noise is really difficult and where a trainer might prove invaluable. I mean, is it because Gunner's just blowing a lot of hot air... or has Riley been really lucky and I've been really quick?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Glad to make you smile!

I am also not a big one for noise...whaddyacallit...penny cans or things like air horns and wonder if that could be the negative when you start to notice the very itty bitty beginnings of a problem. But maybe?

Like I have Ilsa and Ava here. They LOVE to annoy each other-and get sad if the other isn't around to pick at. Sometimes though one gets in a huff and then they decide maybe we're serious about this-maybe (and that's when I blast in at them like a crazy woman-saying HOW DARE YOU CREATE UNREST IN JEANSPACKISTAN and the tone of my voice-low and deep and demonic-stops them-which tells me they aren't that serious-but I worry because if it ever goes there, we are in trouble) we should take this to the next level and snap at each other. 

So I watch them and they are not allowed (when they are in this phase) to look at each other for longer than 3 seconds or so, touch each other, brush against each other, get attention from me unless doing obedience-all those little pre-hissy fit signs. 

So identify those things too. Turid Rugas has that video on Calming Signals that is good (a little slow-but good). And as Barney Fife would say, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!" 

When I worked in a school, I'd say to the teachers-how did it get to chairs being thrown? What were the signs that there was something going on that was escalating (perhaps kids standing up instead of sitting down-holding chairs in their hands instead of sitting in them perhaps?







). But my point was, stop it in that staredown phase, in that bumping up against each other phase, and we won't get to the full on violence. 

When those girls, or any of them, are having their delusions of grandeur, I use everything I have learned from Kramer to tell them that they are not all that they think they are. I use eye contact, body blocking, and voice to communicate good and bad. 

Be a dog-enjoy it-it's fun! You just have to remember not to do it with people...


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## WiscTiger

Dogs live in the moment, they adapt well to changes. I never had crate trained a dog until I got Cheyenne. If it wouldn't have been for this forum and the breeder advice I wouldn't have. But since I did I can tell you that it has been a life saver for DeeDee because when she is scared, she tries to escape, she is safe in her crate from hurting herself.

My dogs all do wel at the Vet's office if they have to stay over night or go to boarding some place because they are use to their crates.

All of my dogs will go curl up in their crate on their own. That is there place.

For peace and harmony I would go for two crates, each dog has their own. 

Val


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## Daisy1986

Keep up the good work on trying to find a trainer!

I agree with Val 2 crates, both crated. 

The only other thing I could think of to add to all this WONDERFUL advice, is kinda like what Jean said, read Gunner, 

Sometimes Lady gives me looks like are you gonna take care of this or am I? I would much rather I took care of something Shadow is doing. Like yesterday he had the nerve to mount her (I am told the teen phase is here) I do not even know what to exspect he is my first male dog!! Lady just looked at me like you are going to get him off me right??


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## JenniferH

I probably dont have anything useful to add...

I wanted to say that I am sorry you are dealing with this and I hope you find the answers you need so you can keep the pack together. 

Two years ago, when I was fairly new to dogs, I made a huge mistake with a dog my family adopted. I wasnt a member here. I did seek outside help with trainers and vets and although we tried the suggestions things didnt work. 

I know now that I should have searched far and wide for answers (like you seem to be doing) and I should have never given up. I have learned so much in the past two years about dogs and I beat myself up every day over the choice my husband and I made. I will never forgive myself. EVER. Many people tell me that "I did what I had to do" and that there is no shame in that. But I have to wonder, did I do ALL I could do? 

I guess my point is to keep working on it. Dont give up...I am sure you can do this!


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## djpohn

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom So yeah, it's been a lot of noise so far and nothing else. But figuring out WHY it's been just noise is really difficult and where a trainer might prove invaluable. I mean, is it because Gunner's just blowing a lot of hot air... or has Riley been really lucky and I've been really quick?


It seems to me that Gunner is just trying to keep Riley in his place. Obviously if he wanted to tear into him he would have by now. You mentioned earlier that Riley is a bit stubborn etc, maybe he is pushing it with Gunner and Gunner has had to "up his correction", moving from just a auible correction to something more physical. I have found with my dogs, a fast, loud, firm correction usually gets the point accross.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: GS Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: GunnersMom So yeah, it's been a lot of noise so far and nothing else. But figuring out WHY it's been just noise is really difficult and where a trainer might prove invaluable. I mean, is it because Gunner's just blowing a lot of hot air... or has Riley been really lucky and I've been really quick?
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that Gunner is just trying to keep Riley in his place. Obviously if he wanted to tear into him he would have by now. You mentioned earlier that Riley is a bit stubborn etc, maybe he is pushing it with Gunner and Gunner has had to "up his correction", moving from just a auible correction to something more physical. I have found with my dogs, a fast, loud, firm correction usually gets the point accross.
Click to expand...

I agree. It's mostly noise with no damage done because they're not really fighting and Gunner isn't trying to hurt Riley. He's trying to put him in his place. This isn't a case of dogs hating each other or really wanting to fight, it's a dominance squabble. Quite likely, there are more subtle signs that Riley is getting on Gunners, and more subtle warnings from Gunner, before he escalates to lashing out. Dogs almost always start subtle and gradually escalate only if the subtle hints aren't getting the message across. The people being able to recognize those subtle warnings Gunner is giving and intervene before thing escalate, or correcting Riley themselves if necessary, is an important step in stopping this. This being able to recognize trouble brewing and nip it in the bud is where having a trainer/behaviorist see the dogs and family in their home environment will be very important.

I've been witness to countless dogs issuing other dogs corrections and canine arguments over various things, as well as a few dominance squabbles and a couple real dog fights. And there is a world of difference in the intensity between the first 3, which are normal canine social behaviors and typically not likely to cause damage, and a *real* fight between two dogs (or more likely, bitches). It does seem though that the LESS serious they are, the more noise is made. Corrections, arguments and dominance scuffles are a whole lot of snarling, snapping and carrying on, but not a whole lot of actual contact and very little, if any, desire to cause any sort of harm. The more serious they are about hurting one another, the less noise... probably because their mouths are too full of each other's body parts to make much racket.

But unless you've seen honest to God canine warfare with 2 bitches trying to kill one another, there's no means of comparison to understand that what is happening between Riley and Gunner is nowhere near that level.


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## Remo

Boy I could not agree with Chris more about the difference between two males fighting and two females fighting. World of difference. 

I always think of two males fighting sort of like drunken guys at a bar - it is very loud, very dramatic, but not a lot of serious injury. But every time I have had to go to the hospital to get stitched up from breaking up a fight, it has been a bitch fight. (I have had some formal training now and my methods have improved so (knock on wood) no stitches in some time now!)

I still think getting them both neutered would greatly reduce the dramatics. 

All the best and I hope you can get things worked out.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> Like I have Ilsa and Ava here. They LOVE to annoy each other-and get sad if the other isn't around to pick at. Sometimes though one gets in a huff and then they decide maybe we're serious about this-maybe (and that's when I blast in at them like a crazy woman-saying HOW DARE YOU CREATE UNREST IN JEANSPACKISTAN and the tone of my voice-low and deep and demonic-stops them-which tells me they aren't that serious-but I worry because if it ever goes there, we are in trouble) we should take this to the next level and snap at each other.
> 
> So I watch them and they are not allowed (when they are in this phase) to look at each other for longer than 3 seconds or so, touch each other, brush against each other, get attention from me unless doing obedience-all those little pre-hissy fit signs.
> 
> So identify those things too. Turid Rugas has that video on Calming Signals that is good (a little slow-but good). And as Barney Fife would say, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!"
> 
> When I worked in a school, I'd say to the teachers-how did it get to chairs being thrown? What were the signs that there was something going on that was escalating (perhaps kids standing up instead of sitting down-holding chairs in their hands instead of sitting in them perhaps?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). But my point was, stop it in that staredown phase, in that bumping up against each other phase, and we won't get to the full on violence.
> 
> When those girls, or any of them, are having their delusions of grandeur, I use everything I have learned from Kramer to tell them that they are not all that they think they are. I use eye contact, body blocking, and voice to communicate good and bad.
> 
> Be a dog-enjoy it-it's fun! You just have to remember not to do it with people...


You are seriously cracking me up here!







Much-needed levity. I like that! 

It's interesting about the 'not letting them look at each other for longer than a few seconds.' I was just describing this to someone -- I've seen that steely "look" they can sometimes get, but I see it from Riley, not Gunner! Riley can be laying down, standing there, whatever and Gunner goes to walk up to or past him and Riley gives him a pretty icy look (sometimes the lip just starts to twitch a little bit, too. Not a full snarl, but the makings of one.) Funny thing is, when he does that, Gunner backs down all sheepish-like! Tail real high in the air, but he _always_ backs off. No scuffles ever break out at those times. 
Now when Gunner strikes, it's without warning. No stare-down, nothing. Just, wham! He's usually not even looking in Riley's direction before it happens. 
What do you guys make of that? Does that tell you anything? 'Cause I don't get it.









_It seems to me that Gunner is just trying to keep Riley in his place. Obviously if he wanted to tear into him he would have by now. You mentioned earlier that Riley is a bit stubborn etc, maybe he is pushing it with Gunner and Gunner has had to "up his correction", moving from just a auible correction to something more physical. I have found with my dogs, a fast, loud, firm correction usually gets the point accross. _

That could be the case. Riley is stubborn when he wants to be. He can be a downright bully, like I just described above. Could Gunner be taking his correction up a notch, but at a later time? I mean, if Riley has pushed his buttons a couple too many times throughout the day, could he later just get a wild hair and decide to go after him? If they live in the moment like I've read here (and they sure seem to) it's confusing me that Gunner's going after him when there seems to be no reason to. (Or, that's what happened with the exception of the first incident, anyway.)

Anyway - tomorrow is crate shopping day. I do have a couple baby gates here, so I'll separate them when we leave, just to play it safe until we (hopefully) get a handle on this. 
It just has to work. I can't bear the thought of giving him up. I have someone who would take him - a close friend of my uncle's, retired Army, great situation for Gunner and *I just can't do it*. 

When mom told me that he'd take him, my immediate reaction was "NO!". We have to work it out. He's not an aggressive dog. He's normally a big baby! (I had actually joked about getting him a pink collar once, but mom said he'd probably understand and would be offended. LOL) And these two are fine together 99% of the time. It's not like they're at each other constantly. It's just really scary when they ARE. To us, anyway. It sounds like you guys have all been through this a few times. It's new to us, so that panic button is just... right there! 

Sorry for the ramble. And thanks. Again!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That new information is HUGE. 

Riley is tossing out a challenge. Gunner is nervous and responds. Maybe later-and maybe to an even more subtle challenge from Riley. 

Would love to be able to watch them. I bet you could find some micro-behaviors that would key you in to a lot-you are starting to get to them. But I think there is something that is setting Gunner off that you are not catching (because dogs like Riley can be sneaky jerks-think Eddie Haskell). 

I took Ava on a home visit once and she made the resident dog pee herself in the house-Ava was across the room, but was making faces at the dog from behind me (like popping her eyes at her-it freaked the other dog out). So sneaky-so smart. The other dog wasn't exactly wired well, but still! We didn't even see her doing this. Ilsa did the same thing-set Jazzstorm's dog off barking while staring her down from behind me. They can really test us. Ava and Ilsa's jerkiness cancels each other out-there is no true victim there-I just work to prevent it (which is a full time job-but they play together for hours at a time-just a weird friendship). However, if one of them tries these moves on another dog, there is heck to pay. I do not tolerate bullies. 

Riley would be in SOOOOOOOO much trouble here. SO much trouble. Strict NILIF-including the ignore phase. Total bootcamp (see Brian Kilcommon's Good Owners, Great Dogs or Leerburg's site-for groundwork, I think Kilcommon's calls it grounding). I'd be on him 24-7, and he'd get no privileges. His appointment at the vet would be this week and we'd have a long stern talk on the way there about how this ends, here and now. 

Each boy would get obedience sessions-Gunner more positive and upbeat to build that confidence and to see you as the leader he can trust again (because he's not sure you've got his back anymore). Riley's more cut and dry until he earns praise and affection. And I'd be trying to tire them both out, but Riley in particular. 

I also would not leave them alone together unsupervised. Each boy would be locked in a room by themselves. Also if you have a dog door, block it. You need to control everything-space, food, everything comes from you. 

Good luck!


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## dd

Okay - Riley is your troublemaker! Please take some time to read Suzanne Clothier on corrections and body language in dog packs:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

The other aggression articles here are enormously helpful too.


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## LandosMom

That article was fabulous!!!!

thanks for the URL dd.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> Riley is tossing out a challenge. Gunner is nervous and responds. Maybe later-and maybe to an even more subtle challenge from Riley.
> 
> Would love to be able to watch them. I bet you could find some micro-behaviors that would key you in to a lot-you are starting to get to them. But I think there is something that is setting Gunner off that you are not catching (because dogs like Riley can be sneaky jerks-think Eddie Haskell).
> 
> Riley would be in SOOOOOOOO much trouble here. SO much trouble. Strict NILIF-including the ignore phase. Total bootcamp (see Brian Kilcommon's Good Owners, Great Dogs or Leerburg's site-for groundwork, I think Kilcommon's calls it grounding). I'd be on him 24-7, and he'd get no privileges. His appointment at the vet would be this week and we'd have a long stern talk on the way there about how this ends, here and now.
> 
> Each boy would get obedience sessions-Gunner more positive and upbeat to build that confidence and to see you as the leader he can trust again (because he's not sure you've got his back anymore). Riley's more cut and dry until he earns praise and affection. And I'd be trying to tire them both out, but Riley in particular.
> 
> I also would not leave them alone together unsupervised. Each boy would be locked in a room by themselves. Also if you have a dog door, block it. You need to control everything-space, food, everything comes from you.
> 
> Good luck!


Eddie Haskell. Oh, that is SO Riley!! It's really pretty funny at times - at other times, not so much. But he is very clever. VERY smart. And very sneaky.
It's funny that you said 'bootcamp.' I was having a talk with him today during our outside alone time and told him that his mom is now the drill sergeant here and he's not going to like it.








He's going in for neutering right after we get Gunner through his. (I already had Gunner's appt set for the 13th.)

One more question: When Riley challenges Gunner, with these icy stares and/or little snarls, what should I be doing? If Gunner needs to know that I have his back, should I intervene? And if so, how? I don't want to foul it up and create even more tension and confusion between them!

I do have a bit of an update on the whole situation. Last night and all day today has been great! Mom and I had a long talk last night and she's on-board 100% with doing whatever we have to do to make this work. She couldn't stand the thought of letting him go, either. So we're not looking at it from an "if this works out" angle - it's "it's GOING to work."









I had a stroke of genius last night. I woke up thinking about it 3:00 am, actually. (LOL.) And yes, for me this is a stroke of genius, so humor me.








I picked up a 30' training lead at PetSmart today. I figured that would allow us to have the boys outside together (where most of the trouble has been) but still let me have enough control that I wouldn't have to be afraid of what might happen, wouldn't have to worry about being able to catch Gunner and get ahold of his collar - I could just reel him in if he went for Riley and it might give me a chance to see _why_ he's been doing it. It was great!! I couldn't throw the toy for Gunner and let him run all-out, but I was able to toss it enough that he still got the adrenaline going. And he didn't mind the lead at all. (_I _had to do a couple nice little jump-rope moves, but...) When we were ready to come back inside, he turned his head once to see where Riley was, I calmly told him "no" and he walked right inside with me, nice as could be. Made no attempt to go after him. The next time we went out, he didn't even turn around to look. Third time, same thing!








So it's obviously not become such a habit for him that he's going to do it no matter what. 
And in the house, since the other morning, nothing. All peace and harmony. 
We looked at crates today, but mom's hesitant, there. She thinks it's better to put them in separate rooms when they do have to be left home alone, for now, than to introduce crates on top of everything else (the NILIF, our cracking-down, etc.) She's afraid that might throw too many curves at them all at once. What do you guys think?

Anyway, after another ramble...








Just wanted to let you guys know that it's "so far, so good." And, thank you!! Honestly - you've all helped more than you know and I appreciate it more than I can tell you. I'm sure Gunner does too! (You guys should charge for this.)

Thanks for the links and sites, Jean and dd. I'm off to check those out, now.


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## dd

> Quote: When Riley challenges Gunner, with these icy stares and/or little snarls, what should I be doing? If Gunner needs to know that I have his back, should I intervene? And if so, how?


Yes, you need to intervene to break the moment. You tell Riley to smarten up and get him into relaxed mode. You can use a redirection, but he has to know that behaviour is unacceptable and won't be tolerated. Get him focused on YOU and make him do something for you - a sit, a down, best of all a down-stay and get him to hold it.


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## RebelGSD

With my dogs it really helps to have them carry their toy in their mouth when they are outside. They are pretty obsessive about their toy (in the mouth) and they would have to drop it (won't happen) to go after the other dog.


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: dd
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: When Riley challenges Gunner, with these icy stares and/or little snarls, what should I be doing? If Gunner needs to know that I have his back, should I intervene? And if so, how?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you need to intervene to break the moment. You tell Riley to smarten up and get him into relaxed mode. You can use a redirection, but he has to know that behaviour is unacceptable and won't be tolerated. Get him focused on YOU and make him do something for you - a sit, a down, best of all a down-stay and get him to hold it.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's one thing I've never been clear on. I'd heard conflicting opinions on that and was never real sure which way to go, so I've never been consistent there. I'm sure I've sent mixed signals and have probably created more confusion between them. Luckily, Riley's very smart and a very quick learner. He's _usually_ very eager to please, too, so once I start showing consistency, I should be able to get a handle on that.


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## Daisy1986

Just checked back on this thread after a couple of day. Very happy to see things are well on their way to being worked out! 

Very happy for Gunner, Riley, you and your Mom!


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: Daisy1986Just checked back on this thread after a couple of day. Very happy to see things are well on their way to being worked out!
> 
> Very happy for Gunner, Riley, you and your Mom!


So far, so good! There hasn't been a spat between them since that one the other day. Not that I have unrealistic expectations about that - I fully expect a setback or two here and there. I mean, if it doesn't happen, _great_! But I'm trying to be realistic and figure that the problem isn't going to just vanish. 

But I've already started to see a difference in Gunner's demeanor. I'm trying to watch the signs and interrupt _before_ Riley starts to challenge him, but the few times that I haven't caught it beforehand, I've stepped in. Now there were two times tonight, when Riley was just starting to act like a little blockhead and I noticed that Gunner's body language was different. He didn't stiffen up and hold his tail high like he'd been doing -- he just stood there, very relaxed and actually looked at me! It was like "Okay, I know you're going to handle this." It's amazing!! I mean, I know he isn't doing anything "remarkable" or "special"... it's just really incredible to see the difference in him!

I've also cut back his outside fetching thing and increased our walks. I'm hoping that might help his obsession with the fetching and maybe he won't get so crazed (and won't be as likely to go after Riley) when he does get to do that, if it's not his main physical outlet. Plus, longer walks mean more alone time with me and I think that's helping, too, with strengthening our bond again. 

So, all in all, I think it's going pretty well so far.


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## elfwofle

That is just awsome to hear!!!! I am so happy you are trying to give it a go. As a friend of mine who owns multiple males says, "I am the one who decided to bring them into my family, so I am the one who will live with them even if it means I have to rotate them. It is not right for me to just kick them out because all of the sudden the road gets s little bumpy." When my female GSD got into it with my other female dog, I had to remember what she had said, because I was so temped to just say the heck with it and rehome the other dog (even though she didnt start it), and now I am so happy I didnt and we (the dogs and I) are still learning new things!


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## Daisy1986

Sounds wonderful. 
I believe Gunner wanted you to do it. I am sure the walks are a big plus!! This wonderful news!


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: elfwolfeThat is just awsome to hear!!!! I am so happy you are trying to give it a go. As a friend of mine who owns multiple males says, "I am the one who decided to bring them into my family, so I am the one who will live with them even if it means I have to rotate them. It is not right for me to just kick them out because all of the sudden the road gets s little bumpy." When my female GSD got into it with my other female dog, I had to remember what she had said, because I was so temped to just say the heck with it and rehome the other dog (even though she didnt start it), and now I am so happy I didnt and we (the dogs and I) are still learning new things!


Exactly. We've never been ones to give up on a dog, so we can't start now. We managed with our Alomar, who was always one slip-up on our part away from killing someone (no exaggeration there, at all.) If we managed that, we can manage this. I think we just had to get our heads on straight and get over our own fears, first. And I think we've managed to do that. Even mom is much more confident now. I don't see the tension and nervous body language in her anymore when they start getting a little wound up in the house. 

It's still going really well. There haven't been any more scuffles. (Knock on wood.) We're still giving them their outdoor playtime and exercise separately, for the most part. We'd had them outside together with Gunner on that 30' training lead. It went really well, but I don't want to worry about that particular situation (with the back door) too much right now. I'd rather focus on getting the pecking order cemented, in general, and get them both neutered, first. Then we can tackle that situation with the back door, when everything else is more under control.

And Daisy - yes, he did want me to do it. He looks so much happier now. I hadn't realized that he looked _unhappy_ until I've seen how he looks now. He's all bright-eyed and playful again. I was playing with him last night and he actually started to playbite! He hasn't done that in ages. Didn't even do it too much when he was a puppy. Obviously, I discouraged that. The last thing I want to do is give him the idea that biting is okay, at this point! But it was great to see him acting so silly.

And to think that we were ready to push the panic button and find him a new home. Gah!!!


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## dd

This is wonderful news! Please keep posting updates - it's great to hear Gunner is happy.


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## Catu

I can read so much happiness in your two last post that I can't but to be happy for you and with you.


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## maggs30

I have a 5 yr old GSD Bear and amazingly a Riley too! Riley is almost 2 yrs old and a GSD. My two have both been neutered and are giving me similar problems as Gunnar and Riley. It seems that Riley is a bad name because my Riley is an Eddie Haskell also! LMAO! Everyone take note...DO NOT NAME YOUR DOG RILEY! ROFLMAO! Okay so what I have done is made sure to always give Bear the older one the attention first, feed first, out the door first,...ect. That way he knows that I see him as higher in the pack order. He tolerates Riley and will only challenge him if Riley is nipping at his ankles and tail. Riley likes to instigate. Riley gets a stern no and a leave it if he starts harassing Bear. Also he will occasionally get a swat on the bottom or a jerk on his collar when he won't back off. Bear has not tried to go after him in a little while now..a couple of weeks...unless I am not supervising them and Riley gets out of hand. Bear will snarl, growl and chase him. Never will bite him though. It takes a lot of reinforcement and some patience. Neutering is a must though. Good luck to you.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI can read so much happiness in your two last post that I can't but to be happy for you and with you.


Ditto!


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## GunnersMom

Thanks, guys! Yeah, I'm just a little bit on the happy side about all this!








And yes, I will continue to post updates every so often. Definitely. You guys have helped SO much, I have to let you know how it's working out.




> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd It seems that Riley is a bad name because my Riley is an Eddie Haskell also! LMAO! Everyone take note...DO NOT NAME YOUR DOG RILEY! ROFLMAO!
> ...Also he will occasionally get a swat on the bottom or a jerk on his collar when he won't back off.


I think there really IS something with that name. I know of a couple other Goldens named Riley and from what their owners say, they're a handful, too. If ya think about it, it really does sound like kind of an ornery name.









When our Riley won't back off, mom has started threatening him with the "a**whacker." (Rolled-up newspaper.) He's afraid of newspaper, so we've never had to actually swat him with it -- just the sight of it is enough. The only tricky part is saying "a**whacker" without laughing. It's a funny word. 
We had tried a spray bottle with him when he was younger (to break him of chasing the cat) but being a Golden and all, water wasn't exactly the best weapon! 

I've been doing everything I can think of to reinforce Gunner's position as 'top dog.' I swear, sometimes he gives me that sarcastic look that only a GSD can give, as if to say "Oh good, you've finally figured it out."


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## maggs30

> Originally Posted By: GunnersMomThanks, guys! Yeah, I'm just a little bit on the happy side about all this!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I will continue to post updates every so often. Definitely. You guys have helped SO much, I have to let you know how it's working out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd It seems that Riley is a bad name because my Riley is an Eddie Haskell also! LMAO! Everyone take note...DO NOT NAME YOUR DOG RILEY! ROFLMAO!
> ...Also he will occasionally get a swat on the bottom or a jerk on his collar when he won't back off.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there really IS something with that name. I know of a couple other Goldens named Riley and from what their owners say, they're a handful, too. If ya think about it, it really does sound like kind of an ornery name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When our Riley won't back off, mom has started threatening him with the "a**whacker." (Rolled-up newspaper.) He's afraid of newspaper, so we've never had to actually swat him with it -- just the sight of it is enough. The only tricky part is saying "a**whacker" without laughing. It's a funny word.
> We had tried a spray bottle with him when he was younger (to break him of chasing the cat) but being a Golden and all, water wasn't exactly the best weapon!
> 
> I've been doing everything I can think of to reinforce Gunner's position as 'top dog.' I swear, sometimes he gives me that sarcastic look that only a GSD can give, as if to say "Oh good, you've finally figured it out."
Click to expand...

My Riley is a GSD and the same way with a newspaper. I don't have to do anything but pick it up! LOL! Can a Goldie and a GSD be twins?!?! Bear gives me that same look. Before he growls at Riley he looks at me like "Okay mom do something before I bite him!" How cute in a weird way. My Riley can not even be in the yard if I pick up the hose. He loves water. So I never even tried the water bottle. Twins! Huh who would have thought??!?! I call my Riley the stupidest dog alive since he seems to not know how to listen with his selective hearing. LOL!


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## doggonefool

I came into this late and am glad to see the happy ending. But will still add my two cents worth on the crates and gates. We have a Belgian Shepherd who is 7 1/2 years old. We recently lost our little white GSD @ 4 years old to kidney failure. Didn't think that we would be ready for another dog for quite some time, but ended up with two. Not GSD, as planned, but Alaskan Huskies, brother and sister. And 9 months old, with some behaviour issues. They have constantly tried to dominate Ranger, my BSD. I constantly intervene; he is ahead of them in the pack. He has never been crated before, and sometimes by his choice, he will go into one of their crates, which are open when we're home. I crate the pups in the morning, after we run them for 5 miles. They each have their own, but tend to go into whichever one looks like it will get the best treat. They have treat balls that they can only have in the crate. Ranger will try to get into the crate just so he can try their treat ball, even though he gets his own in the freedom of the room. We only allow the dogs unrestricted access to one room in the house. We put up kiddie gates in the doorway to keep them out. Loki, my mischevious little imp from another world, loves to prove his cleverness by clearing said fence in a single bound. So we installed another on top of it. Now we have dutch doors between the rooms. 

Always, when we take the dogs out for their run, Ranger goes first. Always, when I give treats, Ranger gets first. When I feed them, when I bathe them, when I groom them, Ranger goes first (though he would probably prefer not to be first on those last two)

The three of them squabble, a lot, and if Ranger is initiating the squabble, I let him deal with it. (He weighs more than both of them together) If it appears to be getting out of hand, I will change the subject. Loki and Jukka can really get into it, and I agree with what was said earlier, both about the bitch being the instigator, and the more noise, the less foul. When they're quiet is when blood will be drawn. When they are making the really snarly growl noises, they are posturing for dominance. I usually let them handle it unless it's in the house or over my attention. They will get said attention by a time out, locked out, which is not where they want to be.

Our next alternative was an outdoor dog run, with a split in the middle. DH is very against that as we have a great back yard for the pups, instead he has turned my family into a dog run...it works for us.

Congrats on a good solution to your problem, and listening to so much great advice!


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: doggonefoolI came into this late and am glad to see the happy ending. But will still add my two cents worth on the crates and gates. We have a Belgian Shepherd who is 7 1/2 years old. We recently lost our little white GSD @ 4 years old to kidney failure.
> 
> Now we have dutch doors between the rooms.
> 
> 
> The three of them squabble, a lot, and if Ranger is initiating the squabble, I let him deal with it. (He weighs more than both of them together) If it appears to be getting out of hand, I will change the subject. Loki and Jukka can really get into it, and I agree with what was said earlier, both about the bitch being the instigator, and the more noise, the less foul. When they're quiet is when blood will be drawn. When they are making the really snarly growl noises, they are posturing for dominance. I usually let them handle it unless it's in the house or over my attention. They will get said attention by a time out, locked out, which is not where they want to be.


Thanks for the two cents! Everything is going well, but I'm still open to any and all advice, and I like to hear what other people have been through with this sort of thing.
I'm sorry for the loss of your WGSD. It's always too soon, but losing one at 4 years had to be awful.

Do you like the Dutch doors? We thought about looking into those, but the only ones I've seen have about a 6-inch deep ledge on the top of the bottom door and I wasn't crazy about that. I figured I might have to buy regular doors and modify them myself.
We've been using the regular old, cheap baby gate (wooden frame, mesh insert...) but Riley's learned that he can knock it down if he really wants to. I just ordered a different kind of gate, that mounts to the wall and swings open, so we'll see if that works. If not, the doors will have to be the next option, since I'm really against using crates with these guys. Gunner has never seen the inside of a crate in his life and Riley hasn't been in one since he was 14 weeks old. And even then, he did not like it. He never went into it willingly. So I really don't like the idea of making them do it now. I'm separating them only when they have to be left home alone, which is never longer than a couple hours, just to play it safe. Other than that, they've been together at all times, indoors, and they're getting along very well. 

Gunner has corrected Riley a couple times, like after they've been playing and Riley doesn't get the hint that the game's over and Gunner has had enough. Or if Riley tries to initiate play when Gunner's not in the mood. He's not going after him, though. He'll take about one step towards him and give him that high-pitched bark, Riley goes off and does something else and that's the end of it, so I've been ignoring it and, like you said, letting Gunner handle it. I used to at least give them a loud "knock it off" or whatever when that would happen, but I'm now staying out of it and trusting Gunner to set his boundaries and establish his rules without taking it too far. So far, so good.

We still haven't tried to tackle that situation outside, by the back door, but I'm not too worried about that, just yet. They're getting along so well that I don't want to take a step backwards at this point. Plus, I know that I have to be _ready_ to tackle that, otherwise my own anxiety is going to make matters worse.


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## doggonefool

My dutch doors are actually two baby gates stacked one above the other- Loki can jump one gate without even trying. It looks kind of tacky, but everyone already thinks we're crazy, so I'm just giving them more fodder.

I never did crates before, and Ranger never has as far as I know. I think Jukka and Loki had minimal crate training, but we have worked on it. I crate them in the morning in larger metal crates before I go to work. We have already ran them for 4 miles and fed them. They only get raw bones or special treets inside of their crates. They get quite excited about going intot them, though when Loki's tired of it, he let's that be known. At bedtime, Jukka loves going into her crate, she seems to feel very safe there. Loki is like a 2 year old; i don't wanna...but he usually will. I leave the door open on the bed crates so they can wander some, but I close the doors when Lights go out. The crates make it much easer to take them places...they don't get too anxious when there bed is traveling with them.

I think that the greatest thing that we have, as dog lovers, is instincts that let us know what is right or wrong for OUR dog. Follow your instincts, and make other peoples suggestions, if you like them, part of your own. It's like your parents; you take the parts that you like best from your childhood, throw out the parts that you hated, and do your best with your own mix.

I a so glad that it is working out well for you. I could tell it was breaking your heart to talk about giving him up.

Good Luck
Carol


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## GunnersMom

> Originally Posted By: doggonefoolMy dutch doors are actually two baby gates stacked one above the other- Loki can jump one gate without even trying. It looks kind of tacky, but everyone already thinks we're crazy, so I'm just giving them more fodder.
> 
> I think that the greatest thing that we have, as dog lovers, is instincts that let us know what is right or wrong for OUR dog. Follow your instincts, and make other peoples suggestions, if you like them, part of your own. It's like your parents; you take the parts that you like best from your childhood, throw out the parts that you hated, and do your best with your own mix.
> 
> I a so glad that it is working out well for you. I could tell it was breaking your heart to talk about giving him up.
> 
> Good Luck
> Carol


Oh yeah, I know how that goes. Most people think we're crazy, too. We warn everyone that this is the dogs' house, they just let us live here. After they visit for the first time, they realize we're not kidding. I finally bought a "Welcome to the Nut House" plaque for the front door, to warn people right up front! And I found an "I'd Turn Back If I Were You" plaque that I just have to have!









That's really what we're trying to do - just hear as many suggestions and ideas as we can and see what we can make work, here, for our guys and with our schedules, etc. 
So far, so good. 
Gunner seems to be much more relaxed, now. To see him actually _playing_ with Riley is pretty incredible. I think he's starting to realize that he can let his guard down a little bit and really interact with Riley, rather than feeling that he has to rule over him all the time. I watch them to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand, since Riley tends to get a little rough and overly-exuberant when he's playing, but we haven't had any problems with it, yet. Gunner lets him know if he starts to get too carried away and they go right back to playing.









And _boy_ was it heartbreaking to think about giving him up! I couldn't have gone through with it. I may push the panic button too quickly at times, but luckily I don't _act_ on it until I'm sure I'm doing the right thing.
Thanks!


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## doggonefool

I am so glad that things are working out! 

We were almost at the point where we were going to have to give one up. In fact, my husband actually got the dog in the car and took him to the pound. Smokie was so happy; Oh boy, I'm going for a ride. DH took him in to turn him over and they told him that he couldn't, that Smokie was registered to me. DH came home and called me at work and told me he needed me to come home right now. I thought one of the kids was hurt. When he got there and explained the situation, I said that we needed to think about it and try to work it out. Boy am I glad that we did. That dog had his quirks (another rescue) but he was my walking bud. It broke my heart when we lost him to a brain aneurism when he was 6. Sometimes, I wonder about my luck with dogs....
It is great that things are working out with Gunner and Riley!


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