# Dog mauling caught on video



## Baillif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7srzL9lLBY&feature=youtu.be

Not going to imbed this because it is graphic. Click at your own discretion.

Bronx pit bull attack leads to arrest - CNN.com

News article here.

Pretty sure those are dogos not pits but whatevs

Discuss.


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## ksotto333

How terrifying, the determination and relentlessness of those dogs is terrible. Thank goodness people stepped in to help.


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## dogma13

Just very disturbing that people would use their dogs as weapons.And what is wrong with people who breed dogs specifically to be used as weapons?


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## NightingaleGSD

I'm baffled at how determined those dogs were to attack that ONE person, and how it took a whole mob of people to get those dogs away. That is very scary!!


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## MacD

I read/watched that article a few days ago on CNN and it truly affected me. Not so much the graphic attack but the fact that the victim, an artist and a master at art restoration work felt compassion for the fate of the dogs, even though he has lost a great deal of ability to use his hands, which is his livelihood. 

What damage those dogs have done and, reading through the lines, probably because their owner had some psychological issues and the dogs did what they were - maybe trained is too strong a word - but allowed to do. 

I also wondered what I would do if I came across such a scene? One theory of grabbing the dogs by the back legs and rotating them wasn't used, but water was, although it seemed to be lacking much pressure - those folks truly helped and probably saved his life. Would I have intervened? I hope I never have to find out but pray I would.


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## holland

while people attempted to help they were not all that effective -it seemed to take a while

He was thrashing his arms and legs-not trying to blame the victim -the dogs were at fault-but it made me google what to do if a dog attacks

What To Do If A Dog Attacks You

I think a natural reaction when a dog bites is to try to pull away-which makes the dog just want to fight more-those dogs looked like pits to me


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## MineAreWorkingline

The article I read today said the victim is a Pit Bull owner himself and did not want the Pits put down. It also went on to state that the victim thought the approaching Pit Bulls were coming to him in a friendly manner to greet him. It makes me wonder how a man that actually owns the same breed could so terribly misread the intentions of the two attacking Pits.


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## Nikitta

Gads How horrible.


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## MacD

You make a very good point MineAreWorkingLine and it's actually caused me to looking into purchasing a book/video to brush up on reading dogs more effectively. I have a lot to learn in that area. 

Yes, the folks who helped him weren't very effective but they bought him time which probably saved his life. 

A year ago I made a bad mistake with my boy. I was expecting friends who had called to say they were on their way and when the doorbell rang I opened the door, knowing my GSD would be happy to see them. ... it was the UPS guy. 

Bak went out the door, the guy took off running, waving his hands (to get to his truck that had no doors hmm) and I was like a bad cop .. STOP, don't run, put your hands on you chest .. then to the dog a command to quit it, come - until I got to him and he had a come to Jesus moment .. not my finest moment but it was a first for me .. I learned the importance of the place command no matter who is coming in the door. My long point being .. most people run, flap their arms and have lost all cognitive ability when being chased by a dog that can kill them. 

My dog didn't bite him btw, but the UPS guy threw my package out at the top of my very long driveway.


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## Jenny720

They do look like dogos. This poor man its a good thing all those people saved his life. There is a t.v. show called do or die. It is computer generated scenarios and they tell you the best thing to do to increase your survival in a disaster. This one episode had same exact scenario but owner with 2 with german shepherds attacking this one man just like this video. They said if they are be attacked to crawl up in a ball would be your best bet to protect your weakest body parts.


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## Baillif

Would have been a much shorter attack has anyone there not been terrified of the dogs like they were lions. Guy with the bat could have ended them really quick.


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## counter

I was once on a walk with Nara and Paw Paw in the city area of Portland, Oregon. I believe I wrote about it on here somewhere. Anyways, an off lead pitbull ran up on us, with his owner trailing behind screaming "NO NO NOOOOOOoooo!!!!!" No recall. No commands. Just "no!" I knew that this meant trouble was headed our way. I don't know why someone who knows his dog was troubled would EVER allow it to be off leash. I was walking right alongside one of the busier main streets in the city. Cars were buzzing by as we stopped on the sidewalk. This large pit ran right up to within 6 feet, stopped to sniff and plan, then instantly tore into Paw Paw. Not sure if he had to first determine the bigger threat, or who was the male, or who was in tact, but he chose Paw Paw's neck. I dropped both leashes, grabbed this pit around the chest so his back was pressed up against my chest, and I rolled onto the ground on my back and squeezed as tight as I could, locking him up. His head was up against mine, but he was unable to turn it to try to bite my face. This was all instinct. I did what came naturally to me, and luckily it worked. I laid there with this pit on top of me, my dogs standing next to me watching, and eventually the pit's owner came up, grabbed his dog by the collar, and dragged him away. As he was dragging him down the street and out of sight, he kept cursing at his dog while punching it in the head as hard as he could. Go figure. I had witnesses come over to check on me and my dogs and they told me they didn't know how I did what I did, and stated that they would have never known, nor could ever pull off such a thing. They were happy for me and my dogs. We were all unscathed.

However, if there would've been 2 pits attacking, this plan would not have worked. But yeah, on the video all those people approached to help and none of them really did what needed to be done to neutralize those pits. It was actually pretty sad. I remember my time living in the city, and it seemed like most of the people I knew were very VERY afraid of dogs. Sad that those brave enough to own a dog would go buy a pitbull and then not train it. They just wanted to have that intimidation factor to prove they were gangsta, like DMX the rapper who has songs about pits, videos with pits, album covers with pits, etc.


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The article I read today said the victim is a Pit Bull owner himself and did not want the Pits put down. It also went on to state that the victim thought the approaching Pit Bulls were coming to him in a friendly manner to greet him. It makes me wonder how a man that actually owns the same breed could so terribly misread the intentions of the two attacking Pits.


Many of the bully /mixes give zero warning signs of their intentions.I've witnessed this several times personally.No change in their relaxed demeanor,big smile with hanging tongue,slow relaxed wagging tail,enjoying an ear scratch even.Then bam!


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## FOKAI_808

This happened to me three months ago. I took Kailani to a very large dog park. As we entered a pitbull ran up to her wagging his tail and seemed friendly then attacked. Luckily Kailani was able to defend herself. But the owner had the nerve to blame me and pay for her vet bills.


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## Stonevintage

Crazy. I watched this twice just focusing on the owner of the dogs. He could have tied the one he had on leash to the tree or car and that would have given him both hands to get the 2nd dog. If you just watch this guy - he was part of the problem and the leashed dog attacked several times more because the owner brought him right back in to try to get the other dog. 

This is what any of us can expect at any time walking down the street these days.


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## wolfy dog

I am surprised that with all the gun ownership and concealed weapons anywhere that nobody shot the dogs.


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## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> I am surprised that with all the gun ownership and concealed weapons anywhere that nobody shot the dogs.


I'm not. The people who carry have no intention of protecting anyone but themselves or their family. Just the way their mind works. They would watch and say "that dummy should have carried like I do".....


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## Kyleigh

wolfy dog said:


> I am surprised that with all the gun ownership and concealed weapons anywhere that nobody shot the dogs.


LOL I actually thought the same thing! Not that that's an option where I live, but it certainly something that ran through my mind about 20 times ... where are all the guns? Where are all the people who say they would shoot if some dog was attacking?

It was an absolutely horrible video to watch - I don't think they were pitts either, but regardless of the breed, they were not nice dogs, and the owner is a moron. 

The victim is much nicer than I am - I would have insisted those dogs get put down - instantly. As for the human - I'm not willing to type what I would want to do online.


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## Reef LeDoux

New York has strict gun laws. There are NO Carry Concealed permits there. 
(and you see how safe it is)


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## Kyleigh

AHA - just goes to show how little I know about guns and gun control and whatnot!

Thank you for that clarification!!!


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## counter

Yes, no guns allowed in NYC limits. Also, I read that the pit bull owner was a "she" not a "he." Not that it should matter, but men are generally stronger on average. Anyone who cannot control 1 or 2 or however many dogs in a situation like this, should not be walking them, male or female.


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## jschrest

I read the article, a 55yr old woman owned the dogs, not the man you see in the video holding the leash on one of them. You can see the other dogs collar/leash on the ground where he slipped out of it. 

It's a sad story, but I commend the heck out of those people for stepping in. I've heard/read about so many similar stories where no one stepped in to help. Many mistakes were made, but the fact is, they saved that poor mans life, even if he was attacked again and again after they stepped in. At one point, you can see the guy swing the chain and hit the dog, and the dog turned and attacked him. Goes to show that violence against a dog just begets violence from the dog. Those were brave people stepping in for sure!

I hope the lady who owns them does complete the physiological testing they are requiring of her. The fact that they are seems to show that she feels no remorse for the carnage her dogs caused.


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## yuriy

Insane video. Shock and panic is contagious. 

I'm somewhat surprised that with so many people there, no one knew how to break up the fight or control the dogs. 

My understanding (wiser minds, correct me if I'm wrong) is that if a dog is attacking someone (not you) the best thing to do is grab its hind legs and lift while backing up. With the hind legs in the air the dog has no control over its movements. 

And a good way to get a dog to release its bite is to grab a stick or other long, hard & thin object and jam it into the dogs mouth (perpendicular to the mouth), then pull back on both ends of the stick (as if you're on a bicycle and holding on to the handlebars).


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## Baillif

The best thing to do in that case is aluminium bat to the base of the skull where the skull meets the spine. Swing for the fences.


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## wolfy dog

What about sounding an airhorn into their ears?


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## newlie

According to the article that Baillif posted, the owner actually dropped the leash(es), so evidently it wasn't a matter of them getting away from her. If the article is correct, she let them go. Also, it said they took her in for a psychological evaluation, so I don't know if there was something about her demeanor that made them think she might not be playing with a full deck or what...


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## newlie

Baillif said:


> The best thing to do in that case is aluminium bat to the base of the skull where the skull meets the spine. Swing for the fences.


I agree. I am all about not hurting animals but when they are attacking a human, particularly when they are obviously out to maim or kill, the first priority has to be to stop them, not matter what the cost.


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## Baillif

Airhorn wouldnt work unless the dogs were nervy. Would have probably jazzed them up. Regardless of that who carries around an airhorn?


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## MineAreWorkingline

People should not feel forced to arm themselves to protect themselves, or their dogs, from somebody else's dangerous dogs. There is just something fundamentally wrong with that type of thinking.

Some people with dangerous dogs need to step up to the plate and learn how to manage and control their dangerous dogs before things are taken out of all of our hands and we all will suffer.


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## MineAreWorkingline

It appears those Pit Bulls have a history of killing other people's pets and nothing had been done about it.

Bronx pit bulls that brutally mauled man killed 3 dogs over the summer according to neighbor | Daily Mail Online


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## llombardo

I can't watch this video, the story itself is disturbing. I see all the comments and read how they were so focused on this man and no matter what kept going back at him. 

Some people are just not right in the head. 

Look what this lady does with her dog...

http://youtu.be/HDJiNUuSOaY


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## Nikitta

I also read an article about the "back yard " breeders in NY. Seeing pits as young as 2 weeks old. They need to regulate that too. Tons of pits are being bred in horrific conditions.


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## selzer

I watched it. 

A man had a little girl in that crowd and the dogs were still running around. If that girl would have turned on the child... He then walked the kid over to where the guy was bleeding, no one was offering any aide to the guy, but the gawping guy with the little girl, probably should have gotten her out of there. She didn't need to see that, and it was unsafe.


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## Muskeg

I watched it- one thing people in general and in the comments don't seem to understand is that this isn't training. I doubt the pits or Dogos (irrelevant) have been attack trained. I doubt they've had any training at all. Most people don't train their dogs to sit, much less attack on command. These dogs are doing what comes naturally to them, and is fun. It isn't about working for their owner, not at all. They are just having a good time. 

The key if you or a dog is being attacked is to stop it early. Years back, a pitbull burst out of a door (broke a tent) to come at my dog and I knew this dog was going to try to kill my dog- I had watched the dog earlier walking around the campground and was already worried about him. I don't know exactly what I did but I do remember running toward the charging pit, yelling (not screaming), and kicking that dog where it hurts (the belly). The dog turned and ran before making contact with my dog. My friends later told me that I was a completely different person when I was fending off that dog- I think I scared them a bit. The owner was in no way apologetic, he heard an earful from me, too. 

My point is- if you can turn the tables and become an aggressor and not prey, even two pits will probably turn tail and run before making contact. It's all a game of nerves, really. I see this with wild animals, too. A full grown grizzly will run from a few dogs, because it is not worth the fight. Animals have a split-second to determine fight or flight. If you can push them into flight, in that millisecond you have to do so, you have won and will not be a victim. 

It's not a matter of physical strength.


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## Muskeg

To add, I would never grab the back legs of an attacking pitbull. They'll turn and bite you before you know it.


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## ksotto333

Stonevintage said:


> I'm not. The people who carry have no intention of protecting anyone but themselves or their family. Just the way their mind works. They would watch and say "that dummy should have carried like I do".....


This is quite an ignorant statement. I personally find it offensive. I can carry, as do quite a few people that I know. I don't know one person who would walk away and leave anyone in danger.


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> I watched it.
> 
> A man had a little girl in that crowd and the dogs were still running around. If that girl would have turned on the child... He then walked the kid over to where the guy was bleeding, no one was offering any aide to the guy, but the gawping guy with the little girl, probably should have gotten her out of there. She didn't need to see that, and it was unsafe.


I was stunned by that! That father exposing his little girl to that and not protecting her and shielding her from the scene - seemingly in a dumbfounded haze about what he was seeing and wanting to see more..... this is what scares me most about this whole mess. A perfect example of why people are becoming desensitized to violence. How very sick.....

When I was young, my mother and father shielded me from witnessing carnage (bad car accidents) or violence and I learned to loath it from their shocked and sad emotions. What is this little girl learning?


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## Stonevintage

ksotto333 said:


> This is quite an ignorant statement. I personally find it offensive. I can carry, as do quite a few people that I know. I don't know one person who would walk away and leave anyone in danger.


The reason for my statement is this. The LAW protects those who protect their own. The law does not protect those that choose to be what can be called "vigilantes". If you choose to take deadly force into your own hands to protect a stranger - you may find yourself at odds with the law.

I did not say they decline for no reason. The decline because there is a risk and they know it. On the other hand - it seems that people who are military trained will not hesitate to step in and risk prosecution in the defense of strangers. You explain the difference to me and then decide where to take offense......


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## Fodder

they look like dogos but sound like pits - they also appear quite small (55lbs vs 85lbs), but I agree, that's irrelevant (although I'm sure dogo and pit owners would appreciate clarification)

anyway, I believe the dogs could have been trained and by trained I don't mean in terms of professionally and reliably trained in personal protection. tether an aggressive or unstable dog, taunt it while the owner strokes it... good girl good boy blah blah blah - say get em a few times... maybe allow the dog to chase someone over the fence and voila, by "hood" standards - they're "attack trained" and I think that's what bystanders are referring to as trained. for Christ sake - the 2nd article even suggests that being fed raw meat had something to do with this, "looking for blood". gimme a break.


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## ksotto333

Originally Posted by *Stonevintage*  
_I'm not. The people who carry have no intention of protecting anyone but themselves or their family. Just the way their mind works. They would watch and say "that dummy should have carried like I do".....

Heck, why would I or anyone else that has studied and taken the time and effort to obtain a concealed carry license be offended by those statements. We aren't a bunch of self-serving idiots. I agree with Bailiff about the bat or any other way to take those dogs down, and if that would be a gun then so be it. 
_


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## Muskeg

Yes, Fodder, I agree that type of training is very possible. I think what I'm trying to say is that if these dogs had any training, it was probably minimal- most of these behaviors are purely genetic.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> I was stunned by that! That father exposing his little girl to that and not protecting her and shielding her from the scene - seemingly in a dumbfounded haze about what he was seeing and wanting to see more..... this is what scares me most about this whole mess. A perfect example of why people are becoming desensitized to violence. How very sick.....
> 
> When I was young, my mother and father shielded me from witnessing carnage (bad car accidents) or violence and I learned to loath it from their shocked and sad emotions. What is this little girl learning?


I remember reading an article not so long ago about a Pit Bull that mauled and killed an innocent leashed dog and then attacked the owner who was trying to save her pet. The police came up on the scene as the mauling was still in progress and shot and killed the Pit Bull.

A man with two young boys had been watching the entire mauling, did nothing to help, did nothing to shield his children from watching the killing and the attack but yet he was the first to complain about his boys having to watch the aggressor be shot and killed!

I never could figure out why it was okay for his boys to watch the Pit Bull rip apart an innocent dog and attack its defending owner but it was not okay for them to watch the police protect and serve.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Yes, Fodder, I agree that type of training is very possible. I think what I'm trying to say is that if these dogs had any training, it was probably minimal- most of these behaviors are purely genetic.


I agree. You can't train a Collie or a Beagle to be a top dog fighting contender.


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## Fodder

^ gotchya, and yes, agreed.


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## Jenny720

Its hard to watch but had to watch it again. I don't know who is more screwed up the owners of the dogs, the lunatic dogs or the father of that little girl. It may be a tie.


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## jschrest

I was watching the dogs so closely, I never noticed that poor little girl. I had to rewat ch the video after reading the comments. How sad for her, and how negligent of that father! I would never walk my kids towards dogs attacking!!

As for the comments about concealed carry, I do have a license to carry, but I don't always. It depends on where I am going. I will say that I wouldn't have shot at either of those dogs though. Not because I am only out to protect myself and family, but because there were so many people milling about, anyone trained in gun safety knows how dangerous a situation it would be to shot with those dogs so close to humans at all times. Even the guy with the baseball bat went to rush one of the dogs, and another guy got in the way of him swinging at the dog. It's a dicey situation with that many people there. Just my two sense on the gun issue, to shoot or not to shoot


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## yuriy

Muskeg said:


> To add, I would never grab the back legs of an attacking pitbull. They'll turn and bite you before you know it.


Found the video where (I think) I got that info: Leerburg On Demand | How to Break up a Dog Fight . 

There's a lot more to it than just lifting the back legs. Probably wouldn't have ended well in this situation.


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## Stonevintage

jschrest said:


> I was watching the dogs so closely, I never noticed that poor little girl. I had to rewat ch the video after reading the comments. How sad for her, and how negligent of that father! I would never walk my kids towards dogs attacking!!
> 
> As for the comments about concealed carry, I do have a license to carry, but I don't always. It depends on where I am going. I will say that I wouldn't have shot at either of those dogs though. Not because I am only out to protect myself and family, but because there were so many people milling about, anyone trained in gun safety knows how dangerous a situation it would be to shot with those dogs so close to humans at all times. Even the guy with the baseball bat went to rush one of the dogs, and another guy got in the way of him swinging at the dog. It's a dicey situation with that many people there. Just my two sense on the gun issue, to shoot or not to shoot


I'm wondering, what is your understanding of the Law as taught in the concealed carry classes? If you shoot someone or something that is threatening (life endangering) to yourself or your family - you are within the law. If you shoot someone threatening your pet (with deadly force) - you are not within the law to shoot. If you happen upon a scene like this, you are not allowed to shoot to protect a stranger. You are not allowed to discharge your weapon in most cities and are subject to legal sanctions and law suits if you do. It is my understanding that this is a legal measure to prevent "vigilantism"


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## jschrest

I was referring more to gun safety than legalities here. Some people get CCP for the show of having one, and don't care two whits about safety using one. In this case (legalities aside) it would not be something a responsible gun owner would do. You always put safety first, and opening fire in this case could, and probably would have, injured more than just the dog. 

Yes, in my state (the laws vary state to state) I would not be legally in the right to shoot either dog. However, if it wa a person commuting the brutal attack on that man, I would be within my legal right to shoot. 

We have a case in my city now where a man shot and buried (still alive) his roommates Pitbull. He said the dog attacked him, and he panicked. He now faces jail time. He pled his case down, and is still awaiting sentencing, but even his "self defense" claim wasn't enough to keep him out if jail. So instead of risking trial, he accepted a plea bargain in exchange for a guilty plea.

I don't want to start a war about guns, or right to bare arms, or about pits, just stating my opinion. I don't think any responsible gun owner would have attempted shooting those dogs. More of the vigilantly type person that we hear about shooting dogs in dog parks would be okay shooting in that situation.


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## jschrest

*a person committing the brutal attack.* I hate posting from my phone, so many spelling and auto correct errors


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## newlie

So, I am almost afraid to post this, but how do people stand on breed specific legislation? The first thing that comes to my mind is what if it's pit bulls today and German Shepherds tomorrow?

I have a family member and a friend who have pit bull mixes that have never shown aggression and they are obviously very much against it. I don't like discriminating against a breed either, but the overwhelming statistics on dog bites are frightening. If it really is mostly instincts and genetics and not training, then where does that leave us?


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## Stonevintage

Sorry, I'm not questioning gun safety at all, in fact, I'm considering getting my cwp soon. So, my questions in a situation like this video.

If you could have walked up to one of the attacking dogs and say yelled "CLEAR - firing weapon here) and had the area cleared and put your weapon on the attacking dog's head and fired. Would you have been cleared of charges?


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## Stonevintage

newlie said:


> So, I am almost afraid to post this, but how do people stand on breed specific legislation? The first thing that comes to my mind is what if it's pit bulls today and German Shepherds tomorrow?
> 
> I have a family member and a friend who have pit bull mixes that have never shown aggression and they are obviously very much against it. I don't like discriminating against a breed either, but the overwhelming statistics on dog bites are frightening. If it really is mostly instincts and genetics and not training, then where does that leave us?


GSD's are not genetically bred to fight. Deaths by GSD 2014 - 1 (one). If GSD's suddenly switch to cause 40-50 deaths per year, then yea - there will be sanctions - but that's never happened.


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## jschrest

Stone, in this case the law wouldn't be on my side. I could face charges, quite a few of them. But, under the circumstances, I doubt any charges would be filed. If that makes any sense? The dogs continued to attack over and over again, after many other means were used. The only person in that video that wouldn't face charges would be the man wielding a hose. The people hitting the dogs with their fists, with the chain, the gentleman with the bat, they could all be charged. But more than likely, none of them would because they were protecting and assisting a man being badly maimed. I think the law is enforced more if I was to just walk up and blind fire into an animal showing danger signs (but not actually attacking) than walking up, clearing the area, and shooting these dogs that were intent on killing that man. The likelihood of everyone clearing out for a safe shot is low though. Especially since that would leave the man being attacked unprotected, which means the dogs would be back on him, and I would risk him being injured by any bullet shot at the dogs. It's easy for a bullet to clear and exit an animal that size and to keep traveling to the person below of in front of him, this case being the man being maimed. Also depends on the caliber of the gun and the ammunition being used, but I would never be comfortable shooting in that situation either.


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## newlie

Stonevintage said:


> GSD's are not genetically bred to fight. Deaths by GSD 2014 - 1 (one). If GSD's suddenly switch to cause 40-50 deaths per year, then yea - there will be sanctions - but that's never happened.


Oh yes, I know. I just fear that legislation like that might open the door to sanctions against other breeds, I mean, you know despite the statistics, there are already lots of places that won't rent to someone who owns a shepherd and insurance carriers to won't cover a homeowner who has a shepherd. So, despite the statistics, people have made these decisions, maybe based on anecdotal information? Who's to say what might happen once the ball starts rolling?

So, Stone, you are in favor?


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## Stonevintage

jschrest said:


> Stone, in this case the law wouldn't be on my side. I could face charges, quite a few of them. But, under the circumstances, I doubt any charges would be filed. If that makes any sense? The dogs continued to attack over and over again, after many other means were used. The only person in that video that wouldn't face charges would be the man wielding a hose. The people hitting the dogs with their fists, with the chain, the gentleman with the bat, they could all be charged. But more than likely, none of them would because they were protecting and assisting a man being badly maimed. I think the law is enforced more if I was to just walk up and blind fire into an animal showing danger signs (but not actually attacking) than walking up, clearing the area, and shooting these dogs that were intent on killing that man. The likelihood of everyone clearing out for a safe shot is low though. Especially since that would leave the man being attacked unprotected, which means the dogs would be back on him, and I would risk him being injured by any bullet shot at the dogs. It's easy for a bullet to clear and exit an animal that size and to keep traveling to the person below of in front of him, this case being the man being maimed. Also depends on the caliber of the gun and the ammunition being used, but I would never be comfortable shooting in that situation either.


Thanks and I understand what you are explaining about charges. The thing I was trying to picture in my mind was indeed the risk of exit bullet damage. Would a 22 be enough to stop a dog but prevent unintentional exit damage?


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## jschrest

As for breed bans, I am torn. The demand for pit puppies in my area at one time has caused BYB to come out of the wood works. There are literally posts daily about a new litter of red or blue pits for sale. Sometimes 3-4 posts a day. I don't think it's fair to ban a breed, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

I think what would be more effective is having to have a permit to own one, like you have to obtain for exotic animals. I don't think insurance companies should ban the owners from getting insurance, I think they should have to pay a higher premium than non bulky breed owners. 

I think shelters need to do home checks like rescues do when they are adopting out these breeds. Our local shelter has free out days. We have so many overflowing in our town, that they adopt them out for free to clear space for other breeds, but end up with just another round of the facility being full of pits again, causing them to offer them up for free again.

I think if the city adds a higher fee for licensing these breds, and heavily fining anyone owning one without permits and licenses, it may prevent the BYB from breeding as often because the demand will go down for the breed. The shelters won't be so full of them, because it would be more difficult to obtain one, and only people that truly love and care about the breed will jump through those hoops to own one. 

But that's a perfect world (aside from no aggression in dogs, of course), but as much as I would love that to work, you'd probably still have to druggies and gangbangers owning them illegally, just like they do with all their guns and drugs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> So, I am almost afraid to post this, but how do people stand on breed specific legislation? The first thing that comes to my mind is what if it's pit bulls today and German Shepherds tomorrow?
> 
> I have a family member and a friend who have pit bull mixes that have never shown aggression and they are obviously very much against it. I don't like discriminating against a breed either, but the overwhelming statistics on dog bites are frightening. If it really is mostly instincts and genetics and not training, then where does that leave us?


I am not advocating, or not advocating, BSL. (Just for the record, BSL can mean a range of things from mandatory sterilization to banning, or any where in between.)

Obviously, the number of maulings and deaths concern me as does the inability of many people in this country to use their property or be in public without fear of a Pit Bull attack and many areas in our country are like that nowadays. Believe it.

My other concern is what if we continue to put blinders on to the facts, will our breed be next? One of the tactics the Pit Bull advocacy is well known for is to throw other breeds under the bus. They advocate all breed dog laws. Why should all dog owners be punished for the acts of Pit Bulls? Do we punish all drivers for the acts of drunk drivers? 

Depending on how they are written, all breed dangerous dog laws can call for the euthanization or strict requirements of a dog upon first bite regardless of severity or cause. The problem with this is that it still gives Pit Bulls one free pass to maul or kill even at the cost of possibly their own life while also killing the Toy Poodle who nipped a passerby.


----------



## jschrest

It really depends on the dog, the angle, the distance, and the area the dog was shot. It could easily clear his head, a side belly entry, a leg entry, and so on, depending on how close to the dog I was when I fired. If I was standing right above the dog, missed the spine, and just managed to get his side, it could easily exit and enter the man beneath him. If I fired from further away, got a clean shot in a very thick area of the dogs body, it's not as likely, but could still happen. It's basically just not worth the risk. Like Baliff said, the bat at the right angle would have been the best choice in that situation, but from what I could see, he never had a clear enough area to make that swing. 

Also, keep in mind that pits will stay locked even after death, and generally the bite gets deeper and harder, so the best bet is to knock them unconscious, not kill them. Throwing a blanket over them to where they can't see, and removing them once they released should also work in theory. A constant steady stream of water to the face should also work in theory. In the video, you can actually see that is the only thing that backed the dogs off, but for some reason he stopped spraying them. There are a lot of ways it could have been handled better, but I still applause all those that stepped in and tried almost all means to get those dogs to stop attacking.


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## Stonevintage

newlie said:


> Oh yes, I know. I just fear that legislation like that might open the door to sanctions against other breeds, I mean, you know despite the statistics, there are already lots of places that won't rent to someone who owns a shepherd and insurance carriers to won't cover a homeowner who has a shepherd. So, despite the statistics, people have made these decisions, maybe based on anecdotal information? Who's to say what might happen once the ball starts rolling?
> 
> So, Stone, you are in favor?


IMO - there's a distinction. Dog bites vs Dog caused deaths on humans. The insurance companies rate on dog bites. Could be something as simple as one tooth mark on skin will condemn a GSD to be a "dangerous dog". That's cause for a law suit.

My distinction would be based on deaths, and then yes I would be in favor of the #1 breed responsible for the majority of deaths in the last 20 years be banned, but existing dogs be grandfathered in but required to be kept under dangerous dog regulations. After all, we're not going to have an issue with Chihuahua breed bans are we, those little buggers bite a lot of people - It's the deaths that are the deal killer for me. This would regulate the most lethal dogs and separate them from irresponsible owners. The GSD would not be considered in this group because it's just not there - not by a mile, not in the last 20 years and not ever. If the #1 group were successfully banned on human death basis - I would only be concerned if I were a rott owner down the road. From there - there's a gigantic leap to the GSD through time (like 68%-17%-2% Where does it stop? Probably with required temperament testing, training and permits to own certain breeds.


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## Stonevintage

jschrest said:


> It really depends on the dog, the angle, the distance, and the area the dog was shot. It could easily clear his head, a side belly entry, a leg entry, and so on, depending on how close to the dog I was when I fired. If I was standing right above the dog, missed the spine, and just managed to get his side, it could easily exit and enter the man beneath him. If I fired from further away, got a clean shot in a very thick area of the dogs body, it's not as likely, but could still happen. It's basically just not worth the risk. Like Baliff said, the bat at the right angle would have been the best choice in that situation, but from what I could see, he never had a clear enough area to make that swing.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that pits will stay locked even after death, and generally the bite gets deeper and harder, so the best bet is to knock them unconscious, not kill them. Throwing a blanket over them to where they can't see, and removing them once they released should also work in theory. A constant steady stream of water to the face should also work in theory. In the video, you can actually see that is the only thing that backed the dogs off, but for some reason he stopped spraying them. There are a lot of ways it could have been handled better, but I still applause all those that stepped in and tried almost all means to get those dogs to stop attacking.


Thanks! No easy answer. I wondered if putting something over their eyes or "waterboarding them" had ever been tried ( hose directed to mouth and nose. To me if you swung for the trees and didn't hit the right spot - you'd end up with what the guy that connected with the chain got.... My plan is to use an ice pick - bigger target - to collapse the lungs.....


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## Chip18

yuriy said:


> Found the video where (I think) I got that info: Leerburg On Demand | How to Break up a Dog Fight .
> 
> There's a lot more to it than just lifting the back legs. Probably wouldn't have ended well in this situation.


You grab the back legs and swing the dog like a sack, throw them aside!


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## wolfy dog

Chip18 said:


> You grab the back legs and swing the dog like a sack, throw them aside!


Easy to do. Wonder why they didn't think of that?


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## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> Easy to do. Wonder why they didn't think of that?


Because it's not that easy. The video does not show or say just grab em by the back legs and throw em aside. Watch the video and you will see.


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## wolfy dog

Stonevintage said:


> Because it's not that easy. The video does not show or say just grab em by the back legs and throw em aside. Watch the video and you will see.


I wasn't serious On the contrary....


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## yuriy

What do you guys think would be the effect of an adult male giving one of those dogs a full swing kick to the stomach? I'd imagine a minimum of several broken ribs and a bit of flight time would kill any fight drive in the attacking dog. Thoughts?


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Because it's not that easy. The video does not show or say just grab em by the back legs and throw em aside. Watch the video and you will see.


I have not seen the Leerburgh clip in awhile, it was in the text but I don't think that is there anymore??

I read it somewhere?? And I am pretty sure it "was" there?? It's nothing I knew on my own?? 

Dog would be focusing on the target! Any of those folks could have done it had they know how and were willing to take a "calculated risk!"


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## MineAreWorkingline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfMVH4wY5Pg


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## newlie

Stonevintage said:


> IMO - there's a distinction. Dog bites vs Dog caused deaths on humans. The insurance companies rate on dog bites. Could be something as simple as one tooth mark on skin will condemn a GSD to be a "dangerous dog". That's cause for a law suit.
> 
> My distinction would be based on deaths, and then yes I would be in favor of the #1 breed responsible for the majority of deaths in the last 20 years be banned, but existing dogs be grandfathered in but required to be kept under dangerous dog regulations. After all, we're not going to have an issue with Chihuahua breed bans are we, those little buggers bite a lot of people - It's the deaths that are the deal killer for me. This would regulate the most lethal dogs and separate them from irresponsible owners. The GSD would not be considered in this group because it's just not there - not by a mile, not in the last 20 years and not ever. If the #1 group were successfully banned on human death basis - I would only be concerned if I were a rott owner down the road. From there - there's a gigantic leap to the GSD through time (like 68%-17%-2% Where does it stop? Probably with required temperament testing, training and permits to own certain breeds.


Stone, you and JSChrest nand MineareWorking have all made some good points and helped clarify things for me. The only thing that might be considered is to add serious mauling's in the statistics. As you said, a nip by a Chihuahua is one thing, having your face torn off is another.


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## llombardo

Your top dangerous dogs are Pitts, Rotts, GSDs, and dobes. It doesn't matter what we think, the insurance companies have already put in place a trail to lead to breed restrictions or bans. I do consider any of these breeds dangerous, especially in the wrong hands. I read of at least 3 deaths that were caused by GSDs, probably last year alone, I'm not sure where the number 1 is coming from? It sure isn't clmparable to Pitts or Rotts, Rotts cause a lot of damage too. After my encounter with the Rott and trying to get his jaws unlocked from my pups head, I'm really leary of Rotts.


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## llombardo

Here is a video of bite force amongst three breeds.. 


http://youtu.be/ADDxe24ud90


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## Debanneball

Is there no law in the US that says pit bulls MUST wear a muzzle when out in public at all times, no exceptions?


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## jschrest

Deb, I think that would probably be difficult to enforce, and could easily transfer to any large breed. 

We have pits roaming my neighborhood freely. Heck, the guy behind me leaves his two in the backyard 24/7, and they charge you through a gap in the fence when I go to take my trash out. We have large community trash cans in the alleyways between the back of out houses. I literally have to carry a large stick and smack them in the head with a full swing to get them back into their yard. It makes taking the trash out a scary ordeal.

On that same token, we also have GSD's that get out and roam a lot as well. The "lost and found" pages on FB are mainly pits and shepherds getting loose. I have a GSD BYB across the street and one house down from me. She breeds the same bitch to the same male every heat cycle. She puts a sign outside her house to advertise them, and sells them at 5 weeks of age. 

Both the pit owner and the GSD owner is legally in the wrong, but animal control here is overwhelmed and do nothing, even after numerous reports from multiple people. It would be great if they put laws into place, and then actually upheld them, but that just doesn't seem to be the case in most communities. 

I think it basically comes down to owners. Some have no issues with letting their dangerous dogs roam the streets. I have a dangerous dog, both to people and other animals. If she got loose, it wouldn't likely end well for any party involved. But I take precautions. Signs posts everywhere, pad locks on every gate, have made calls to every utility company to alert them that there is a dangerous dog on the premises. I walk her with a collar/leash and a vest/leash, because she is strong enough to pull me down with just a collar. I take her to more remote places to walk her. She is crated when anyone is over to do work on my house. She is worked with a trainer one on one to help with her issues. But even with all that, she could still get loose, and then I would look like the idiot owner that couldn't/wouldn't control their dog, or it could easily look like I intentionally trained her to be that way. But I cannot muzzle her. I have tried every kind out there, and she inflicts large amounts of damage to herself (needed 2 stitches with the last try) trying to get it off. She goes berserk and no amount of treats, distractions, or commands can get her to stop. So maybe I'm biased. I would hate for someone to tell me she must be muzzled at all times off my property. She would never be able to leave my property.


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## Saphire

Debanneball said:


> Is there no law in the US that says pit bulls MUST wear a muzzle when out in public at all times, no exceptions?


We have that law here and it's unenforceable. Pitbull 's everywhere here in Orillia and I've yet to see one wearing a muzzle. Pitbull puppies everywhere here when they are no longer allowed to be bred. The owners simply say they are a mix and the bylaw officers say "ok". My sister has a 15 month old pitbull when breed ban took effect in 2005 I believe. Should her dog bite someone on her property, her house insurance will refuse payment as she has a banned breed that could easily be proven as purebred. Will the rescue who lied about the mix pay out? 

Bite stats for pitbulls has dropped dramatically since the ban so the critics will say it was effective.


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## G-burg

Boy, I'd hate for my people loving, social outgoing Amstaff Terrier (pit bull) to have to wear a muzzle out in public.. 

The thing is the breed is supposed to be very social, open and friendly to people... Not aggressive at all.. Unfortunately, it's the people that screw it up in breeding dogs that should not be bred..

The whole situation is sad..


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## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> Boy, I'd hate for my people loving, social outgoing Amstaff Terrier (pit bull) to have to wear a muzzle out in public..
> 
> The thing is the breed is supposed to be very social, open and friendly to people... Not aggressive at all.. Unfortunately, it's the people that screw it up in breeding dogs that should not be bred..
> 
> The whole situation is sad..



:thumbup: Yes! Heck we even use ours for training clients.


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## Saphire

G-burg said:


> Boy, I'd hate for my people loving, social outgoing Amstaff Terrier (pit bull) to have to wear a muzzle out in public..
> 
> The thing is the breed is supposed to be very social, open and friendly to people... Not aggressive at all.. Unfortunately, it's the people that screw it up in breeding dogs that should not be bred..
> 
> The whole situation is sad..


Yep i totally agree. But it goes further than breeding. Take an irresponsible or naive owner and put any powerful dog in their hands, things can go badly regardless of sound breeding or not. The GSD is not safe from future breed bans as a result.


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## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> I have not seen the Leerburgh clip in awhile, it was in the text but I don't think that is there anymore??
> 
> I read it somewhere?? And I am pretty sure it "was" there?? It's nothing I knew on my own??
> 
> Dog would be focusing on the target! Any of those folks could have done it had they know how and were willing to take a "calculated risk!"


When you "wheelbarrow" a dog out of a fight, you have to put him somewhere he can't escape from or the fight will resume. That's the problem. It also stated that if you are not able to get one of the dogs confined and you loose the hold, you risk getting attacked. That's the only thing. 

The guy with the chain that swung will probably tell you that the dog changed his target (to him) at least temporarily - he wound up in the hospital too.


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## jschrest

Pit bulls and staffordshire terriers are NOT the same breed. They get lumped in with them all the time and it drives me nuts (speaking about ban laws here, not people on the forum  ). They are a cousin to the Pit, but a distant cousin. They are so much different than pits. I had the honor of rescuing one after being hit by a car, and oh man, he was the sweetest little boy ever. So easily trained, so loving, and it broke my heart when he was finally rehomed after successful surgeries, healing, and training. I wish I would have kept him. A beautiful chocolate brown with the most gorgeous eyes. 

I digress. Bans, if utilized properly, and actually upheld, would be wonderful to slow down the BYB's doing it for money, but I don't think they would actually prevent any attacks or bites. Honestly, I'm more afraid of little yappers that nip at your heels and go for finger and toes. They aren't trained because "oh, they are just little fuzz balls." They pose major threats to children, they are notorious for child aggression, yet no one is calling for bans on them because they don't do as much damage. Regardless of what bans are put in place, for any breed, it's a matter of those bans being upheld, and that isn't the case. People still breed them illegally, purchase them illegally, handle them illegally, and surrender them when they don't turn out to be the dog they thought they would be. 

Too many people put too little time and effort into their animals, and expect high results with little training. I know people who think GSD's should be easy to train because they are smart. Yep, smart enough to tear your house to bits. Smart enough to dig a hole under your fence and bolt. Smart enough to bite, nip, lunge, and act out. When they aren't properly trained and not given enough stimulation and exercise. But people think they show magically self train themselves. I think I've gotten off track again. I should stop for awhile I'm thinking. A bad night of sleep has left my brain foggy


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## Jenny720

My mom and dad had a shady neighbor who owned a pit bull. These people were a off and seemed to have had shady business dealings. The dog was always behind a fence and seemed friendly but again those people were off. We always visited my parents with our little kids. I did read, when I tried to prepare myself if anything happened if can't be avoided, that also to grab the dog by the rear legs like a wheelbarrow but to swing the dog in a circle continuously but you can not let them go until police arrive to contain the dog. I'm sure it looked easier on the video ,which was a real life attack caught on tape I believe it was the wife's husband the dog attacked the minute he left the dog go he thought it calmed down and let the dog go who just attacked him again. Hosing the dog or pouring a bottle of bleach blinding the dog and then whacking I'm the head-sorry sounds horrible. We never had any issues with my moms neighbors pit bull.This a two dogs attack though you would need to have an organized plan and a few people to stop this quickly. The fireman with the hose slowed the dog down and more then 12 cops standing their more then prepared made this handler get his act together and get his dog under control. The dogs started to attack other people in the street. It owners like this that give pit bulls and other dogs a bad name. I agree Genetics come into play but if you have an owner who has a full deck and knows how to manage their dogs something like this would less likely to happen. A few months ago went to a pet expo there must of been 80 percent of dog owners with pit bulls who were all so well behaved.


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## Jenny720

My mom and dad had a shady neighbor who owned a pit bull. These people were a off and seemed to have had shady business dealings. The dog was always behind a fence and seemed friendly but again those people were off. We always visited my parents with our little kids. I did read, when I tried to prepare myself if anything happened if can't be avoided, that also to grab the dog by the rear legs like a wheelbarrow but to swing the dog in a circle continuously but you can not let them go until police arrive to contain the dog. I'm sure it looked easier on the video ,which was a real life attack caught on tape I believe it was the wife's husband the dog attacked the minute he left the dog go he thought it calmed down and let the dog go who just attacked him again. Another way that might get dog off someone is toHosing the dog or pouring a bottle of bleach over his head blinding the dog and then whacking I'm the head-sorry sounds horrible. This a two dogs attack though you would need to have an organized plan and a few people to stop this quickly. These dogs were attacking other people in the street. The fireman with the hose slowed the dog down and more then 12 cops standing their more then prepared made this handler get his act together and get his dog under control. It owners like this that give pit bulls and other dogs a bad name. I agree Genetics come into play but if you have an owner who has a full deck and knows how to manage their dogs something like this would less likely to happen. A few months ago went to a pet expo there must of been 80 percent of dog owners with pit bulls who were all so well behaved.


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## Stonevintage

jschrest said:


> Pit bulls and staffordshire terriers are NOT the same breed. They get lumped in with them all the time and it drives me nuts (speaking about ban laws here, not people on the forum  ). They are a cousin to the Pit, but a distant cousin. They are so much different than pits.


I wondered about that too. So a couple of hours ago, I took the time to read the history of the breed. They are one in the same. The confusion comes because they are in an unusual situation. There is a European Dog Registry that goes way, way back. The dogs originally used to create the APB and Staffie are the same mix and bloodlines. The APB registry here in the US says Staffies are PB's and they are with their registry. In addition - The AKC allows Staffies in their registry if the Sire and Dam are registered with them - but not APB's. The bottom line is that they are PB's - the bloodlines go so far back there is no speculation. 

I still wasn't satisfied because the AST I had in the 70's looked so much different (by my memory) so, I went back to the 70's and looked at images of the PB's and the AST's. Indeed, the body type you see today has been very well established for many decades and is not something new. There may be many out of standard as to size - but otherwise little has changed.


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## Chip18

Debanneball said:


> Is there no law in the US that says pit bulls MUST wear a muzzle when out in public at all times, no exceptions?


That one is a low slow pitch! Land of the "clueless" home of the "stupid" ie "no one is making me put a muzzle, on my badly behaved, ill temper cur!!!"

A few of "us" Bubble Dog owners!"  Got flack because we did use a muzzle while working on our dogs issues in public !:crazy:

But "responsible" owners and their dogs...are not the ones making the headlines and racking up stats!

So the solution is "simple" it's called "responsibility!" That is "apparently" a pretty hard sell "here" if you look at the numbers! 

More people need to go to jail! Bet that would get through to the "lame and clueless!"


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## Palydyn

> The people who carry have no intention of protecting anyone but themselves or their family. Just the way their mind works. They would watch and say "that dummy should have carried like I do"...


I, too, find this offensive. Where is the evidence to support such a statement?

And since this is a GSD forum I am sure that people here will be shocked and violently disagree but around here there are more aggressive, unruly, non trained GSD's than any other pure breds. A few weeks ago one of my leashed minature doxies was attacked by, (gasp say it ain't so), an unleashed GSD in a local park. It was not safe to use my back-up weapon because of nearby park patrons and children, but I did use a weighted 16 inch PVC pipe I carry. Smacked the dog and his dog companion a few times and it ran away to the applause of the park patrons. If they both had attacked yes, I would have shot them. But in this case it was not necessary. 

And yes, in a perfect world people would be responsible and train their dogs and breeders, BYB or otherwise, would strive to produce more stable dogs. But this isn't a perfect world and none of this is likely to happen. So if BSL's against GSD's are enacted, it will be because not enough people cared to do the right thing. And GSD's as a breed will suffer.


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## yuriy

I think the most effective solution would be to simply outlaw BYB, and force every dog to be neutered/spayed at X months. When you buy a puppy (from a proper breeder), the pup would come microchipped, and you will have pre-paid for the future spay/neuter (to eliminate any "I can't afford it" excuses down the line). Sure, the prices for dogs would climb up due to a suddenly limited supply, but the people getting the dogs would be responsible owners with the means and intention to take care of the dog. 

Any people found to be intentionally breeding in their back yards should have their dogs and property seized.

Wishful thinking...


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## Jenny720

These dogs had prior incidences in then past I think they did bite someone and attacked peoples dogs. Maybe a heavy fine $$$$ would have to be the consequence of someone who has a dog that attacks other dogs or bite other people regardless if someone press charges or not and would have dog probation type officers making sure the owners are taking steps to manage their dog. It might or might not decrease an escalated event such as the mauling of this man. It may make someone think twice if they are capable or not owning such a dog and the demand will go down closing down some of the backyard breeders.


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## Galathiel

Where do you want them to breed...their side yard?  Who gets to decide what constitutes a BYB? And I'm sorry, but no one is telling me that I have to spay/neuter. I opted to do so when my GSD was 2 years old, but it was MY decision, not an arbitrary ruling. The government has already mucked up things for the responsible breeders as it is. 

You know, I had a HA dog (GSD). The management just wasn't .. that ... hard. I was a pre-teen and still maintained control of my dog. I don't know what's stopping these adults. She was always properly contained and leashed whenever we were outside the fence. I obedience trained her and as long as no one approached her, she was indifferent to their presence. It CAN be taught.

Dogs with a bite history should wear a muzzle in public....or stay home.


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## Jenny720

I believe there is a big difference between professional breeders having a kennel at their homes and are in no way considered back yard breeders. The term referring to back yard breeding is someone who just breeds dogs out of their house for the sole purpose to make money and has no experience or interest about the breed.


----------



## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> The best thing to do in that case is aluminium bat to the base of the skull where the skull meets the spine. Swing for the fences.


Well shoot. I just bought a walking stick. If I'm gonna carry an aluminum bat around, I'm gonna wear a baseball cap too. Maybe then people won't think I'm looking to rumble.


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## amburger16

Dog fighting is illegal, but they still find a way to do do it.. Just like murder, rape, assault, drugs, theft.. Banning byb is not going to stop anyone.

And if someone tried to tell me I needed to alter my dog, I can promise you I wouldn't.

It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Nothing is ever going to end, might as well just enjoy your time here.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> When you "wheelbarrow" a dog out of a fight, you have to put him somewhere he can't escape from or the fight will resume. That's the problem. It also stated that if you are not able to get one of the dogs confined and you loose the hold, you risk getting attacked. That's the only thing.


 An acute observation! I'll try and explain but first...I want to say that I mean "no" disrespect to the members of JQP who "chose" to get involved! They went above and beyond and put themselves in harms way to help someone else in trouble! Hopefully the "city" will give them some kind of recognition for doing that???

But the wheel barrel thing?? The goal of that technique is "not" to harm dogs! It's a tool used to break up dog fights by restraining the combatants, getting them out of the fight "without doing them harm!" 

But this was "uncontrolled" chaos...a "street fight!" So time to switch it up! Not "everyone" can do it of course but if you look at the film, you'll see parked cars and trees on the street! "There you go," spin and aim for a target! A good slam would take the fight out of them!

I'll also note...that these "clearly out of control dogs" ...did not attack their owner! That is also a "Pitt Bull" trait! 

That too is "genetic" clearly not something this "tool" could have encouraged! 




Stonevintage said:


> The guy with the chain that swung will probably tell you that the dog changed his target (to him) at least temporarily - he wound up in the hospital too.


 That's too bad..I hope he does well in recovery and I hope his takeaway from this is not..."don't get involved!" 

But...not done here! Unlike the flack, I got about the "knee thing" in the jumping thread! This time it was UDF! (Ultimate Dog Fighting!)

Dog had the guys hand or arm in his mouth and he "tried" to pull away! That is what "most" people would do! But there were options, he could have pulled the dog into him with his free hand and with the arm in the dogs mouth and the free arm behind the dogs neck, crank the dogs head backwards or again pull the dog in close and start driving his knees forcefully, into the dogs chest!!

He had the few sec's he needed to do that and then he had two dogs on him!
That is a very bad situation! But had he made the first dog pay for a poor choice of target...the second one might have thought twice?? 

And of course not "everyone" can do that...but some can! 

Certainly not the kind of advice I typically give out! But this is an "extreme" situation and it called for extreme measures! 

So...carry on all.


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## Debanneball

Chip18 said:


> That one is a low slow pitch! Land of the "clueless" home of the "stupid" ie "no one is making me put a muzzle, on my badly behaved, ill temper cur!!!"
> 
> A few of "us" Bubble Dog owners!"  Got flack because we did use a muzzle while working on our dogs issues in public !:crazy:
> 
> But "responsible" owners and their dogs...are not
> the ones making the headlines and racking up stats!
> 
> So the solution is "simple" it's called "responsibility!" That is "apparently" a pretty hard
> sell "here" if you look at the numbers!
> 
> More people need to go to jail! Bet that would get through to the "lame and clueless!"


Don't get your knickers in a twitch, it was only a question.....


----------



## Chip18

yuriy said:


> I think the most effective solution would be to simply outlaw BYB, and force every dog to be neutered/spayed at X months. When you buy a puppy (from a proper breeder), the pup would come microchipped, and you will have pre-paid for the future spay/neuter (to eliminate any "I can't afford it" excuses down the line). Sure, the prices for dogs would climb up due to a suddenly limited supply, but the people getting the dogs would be responsible owners with the means and intention to take care of the dog.
> 
> Any people found to be intentionally breeding in their back yards should have their dogs and property seized.
> 
> Wishful thinking...


I think in CA they were proposing a "puppy tax," to combat this "situation" but I believe "legitimate "breeders" were opposed?? As well as the no new taxes crowd! :crazy:

I lost track of it so I don't know that it ever happened???


----------



## Chip18

Debanneball said:


> Don't get your knickers in a twitch, it was only a question.....


 Me??? No, I'm cool! 

Gee I lose it once...OK twice! 

And I'm the "Bad Dog???" Naw I was trying to explain how that "propsal" would be viewed "here."

"Bubble Dog" was not my "term," but I liked it! So I tend to use it! "Bubble Dog," "Pet People" and "Fur Baby" all have been used as slams on here and I take'em and run with them! Kinda what I do! Sorry if it got misinterpreted, internet, you know?? We're good!


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## wolfy dog

It's simple: if you don't like Pits, don't get them. If you do like Pits, have one or are planning of having one, do your research, be responsible and never put them in a situation where they can do harm, no matter how much you trust them. Remember that before the first bite, "they never have hurt anyone". 
It's OK to disagree on here and we probably will never be able to convince the other minded person to agree.


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## Palydyn

> Chip18..."I think in CA they were proposing a "puppy tax, " to combat this "situation" but I believe "legitimate" "breeders" were opposed?? As well as the no new taxes crowd!:smirk: I lost track of it so I don't know that it ever happened???


Are you kidding me. I live in California and the Dems here never found a tax they didn't like. We already have the highest income tax in the nation, the highest gasoline tax and the highest sales taxes. In some part of California the income taxes between Fed, State and local is up to 63%. I would be highly ticked off if I had to pay a puppy tax on top of all that because other people can't or won't take care of their own dogs.


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## valb

yuriy said:


> What do you guys think would be the effect of an adult male giving one of those dogs a full swing kick to the stomach? I'd imagine a minimum of several broken ribs and a bit of flight time would kill any fight drive in the attacking dog. Thoughts?


 I'm not an adult male, but I'm a physically fit almost 200 pound female, and here is what I posted about what happened to us: Prior to summer 2014, I was a long time defender/supporter of pitts. That all changed when Lillie, walking quietly on leash by my side, was attacked by a loose intact 2 year old male. He was intent on killing her. Paid NO attention at all to my many kicks in his side, his throat, his nuts, wherever I could connect. I told the reporting officer I thought it was 6-8 times, a witness said "No mam, it was more like ten" but this dog didn't even whimper. At one point, he had Lillie pinned on her back on asphalt, with his jaws around her throat. The only reason she didn't die was a contractor working nearby raced over in his truck, pulled out a long 2X4 and clonked the pitt over the head with it. Laid him out, didn't kill him. The owner surrendered him because, to quote the shelter staffer I talked to "They'd had problems like this with him before" and he was euth'd. Now, I carry something with me with enough weight and God forbid one charges either of us again, he's getting a broken skull. I will never forget hearing Lillie's cries, and feeling so helpless and upset that I couldn't protect her. ---------------------------------------------------------- I do respect the people in the video who tried to help, but you have to (believe me!) be VERY committed to what you are going to do, to seeing the thing through to the end. The pit that attacked us was very focused and would NOT have been turned away by water from a hose, or nearly anything else. A friend's trainer upon hearing my story, said that I should always carry treats and throw them out in front of the dog. Yeah, right. I had nowhere to go in my location, could not get on top of a car or behind a fence or any of the other things they tell you to do. I will worry about the law later if I have to, but I'm prepared to go before a judge and state my case, and the incident number for the prior attack is burned into my memory banks. I think I will be understood.


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## yuriy

valb said:


> I'm not an adult male, but I'm a physically fit almost 200 pound female, and here is what I posted about what happened to us: Prior to summer 2014, I was a long time defender/supporter of pitts. That all changed when Lillie, walking quietly on leash by my side, was attacked by a loose intact 2 year old male. He was intent on killing her. Paid NO attention at all to my many kicks in his side, his throat, his nuts, wherever I could connect. I told the reporting officer I thought it was 6-8 times, a witness said "No mam, it was more like ten" but this dog didn't even whimper. At one point, he had Lillie pinned on her back on asphalt, with his jaws around her throat. The only reason she didn't die was a contractor working nearby raced over in his truck, pulled out a long 2X4 and clonked the pitt over the head with it. Laid him out, didn't kill him. The owner surrendered him because, to quote the shelter staffer I talked to "They'd had problems like this with him before" and he was euth'd. Now, I carry something with me with enough weight and God forbid one charges either of us again, he's getting a broken skull. I will never forget hearing Lillie's cries, and feeling so helpless and upset that I couldn't protect her. ---------------------------------------------------------- I do respect the people in the video who tried to help, but you have to (believe me!) be VERY committed to what you are going to do, to seeing the thing through to the end. The pit that attacked us was very focused and would NOT have been turned away by water from a hose, or nearly anything else. A friend's trainer upon hearing my story, said that I should always carry treats and throw them out in front of the dog. Yeah, right. I had nowhere to go in my location, could not get on top of a car or behind a fence or any of the other things they tell you to do. I will worry about the law later if I have to, but I'm prepared to go before a judge and state my case, and the incident number for the prior attack is burned into my memory banks. I think I will be understood.


Thanks for sharing. Certainly paints the scenario in a new light for me.


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## Chip18

Palydyn said:


> Are you kidding me. I live in California and the Dems here never found a tax they didn't like. We already have the highest income tax in the nation, the highest gasoline tax and the highest sales taxes. In some part of California the income taxes between Fed, State and local is up to 63%. I would be highly ticked off if I had to pay a puppy tax on top of all that because other people can't or won't take care of their own dogs.


Yep, I moved from San Jose Ca to NV in 2003 and among the list of things you mentioned, you guys always get screwed with gas prices!

Nonetheless, I did cover the more taxes objection.


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## Chip18

valb said:


> I'm not an adult male, but I'm a physically fit almost 200 pound female, and here is what I posted about what happened to us: Prior to summer 2014, I was a long time defender/supporter of pitts. That all changed when Lillie, walking quietly on leash by my side, was attacked by a loose intact 2 year old male. He was intent on killing her. Paid NO attention at all to my many kicks in his side, his throat, his nuts, wherever I could connect. I told the reporting officer I thought it was 6-8 times, a witness said "No mam, it was more like ten" but this dog didn't even whimper. At one point, he had Lillie pinned on her back on asphalt, with his jaws around her throat. The only reason she didn't die was a contractor working nearby raced over in his truck, pulled out a long 2X4 and clonked the pitt over the head with it. Laid him out, didn't kill him. The owner surrendered him because, to quote the shelter staffer I talked to "They'd had problems like this with him before" and he was euth'd. Now, I carry something with me with enough weight and God forbid one charges either of us again, he's getting a broken skull. I will never forget hearing Lillie's cries, and feeling so helpless and upset that I couldn't protect her. ---------------------------------------------------------- I do respect the people in the video who tried to help, but you have to (believe me!) be VERY committed to what you are going to do, to seeing the thing through to the end. The pit that attacked us was very focused and would NOT have been turned away by water from a hose, or nearly anything else. A friend's trainer upon hearing my story, said that I should always carry treats and throw them out in front of the dog. Yeah, right. I had nowhere to go in my location, could not get on top of a car or behind a fence or any of the other things they tell you to do. I will worry about the law later if I have to, but I'm prepared to go before a judge and state my case, and the incident number for the prior attack is burned into my memory banks. I think I will be understood.


Yes we hear you:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html


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## Mikelia

What a horrible, tragic event. I noticed the little girl right off the bat and could not believe that man just waltzed on in there with her, people astound me. 
IMO those dogs were the 'typical' pit bull story. Untrained, encouraged to act like a 'pit bull', taught to play wild and hectic. Probably had a guy wrap towels around his arms, smack them up, scream at them. I think dogos too but they are mighty small. However, American pit bull terriers (if we are going to be specific here) bite and hold on. The one dog had some good holds and shakes, but let go and re bit many times. The other dog did a whole lot of bouncing and jumping in and out. 'Pit bulls' do not do that, especially not trained ones. 
On the topic of breeds, there is : American pit bull terrier (APBT) recognized by ADBA, American Staffordshire terrier (Amstaff) recognized by AKC/CKC and can be dual registered as a pit bull with ADBA and Staffordshire bull terrier (staffies) which is England's version of the American pit bull terrier. Pit bulls are smaller size than Amstaffs. 
For all of those who think that pit bulls are the number one biting breed and german shepherds only kill one person per year please read the book Pit Bull Placebo [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Pit-Bull-Placebo-Aggression/dp/0972191410[/ame] . It really opens your eyes on what the true statistics are. Believe it or not Bloodhounds once were the breed flavour of the decade and were responsible for most deaths by dogs at that the time.
I live in Ontario which has the largest geographical area BSL in North America. I have a grandfathered American pit bull terrier, this August marked 10 years that she has worn her muzzle. There are still pit bulls and puppies. I love it when I see them but I fear for their lives. Over the years people have just turned to other breeds. I'd say the number one biting large dog in my city is the German shepherd. I work pet retail in a low income city centre area. I see a LOT of dogs. The pit bull type dogs (I like to call 'em pitties) are generally sweet and outgoing as bully breeds should be, while most gsds I see are out of control nervebags whose owners are purchasing muzzles for. I rarely see a nice GSD who is a great representative of their breed. My heart breed is horribly represented by the majority of it's population here. Most people who have been bit by dogs have been bit by a gsd. I hear of a serious gsd attack often enough. Recently a friend of mine's daughter went through a situation very similar to that video, but with german shepherds. I have also seen a surge of poorly bred boxers, rotties and dobes. But the one that I hear about attacking is most often gsds. 
I'll be the very first to say apbts are NOT a breed for everyone, just like the gsd is not a breed for everyone. You need to know what they are before you get one, and you need to be prepared to handle it. When they bite, it really is serious, and I won`t argue that. Unlike most of the haters here who want them banned, knows a friend of a friend who`s dog turned on them out of the blue, or watched so many videos or read an article once and it said millions of people are killed by pit bulls every year, I have dealt with pit bulls gone wrong. A few of them. I`ve seen how they attack, I`ve been the one to get them off. It is not something the general public is capable of doing. But neither would it be easy if it was two german shepherds, or two labs. There was recently a video on my facebook about a Labrador that attacked a pit bull being walked by a kid. It was nasty, the owner ran after her dog and had it up in the air by its backlegs. It wasn`t letting go. Pittie was one of the great big headed blue ones too. The kid obviously couldn`t do anything to get the lab off his dog. A security camera caught it all. If I were more computer literate I`d be able to find it. I tried on youtube but when you put in `lab attacks pit bull all you get is videos of pit bulls attacking and dogs playing. Guess the serious attack where the woman legitimately cannot get her lab off of another dog isn`t big enough news for youtube. Just like you didn`t hear about it on national news 
I just don`t think breed specific legislation is the answer. But I have no idea what the answer is. There are too many pit bulls and too many idiots wanting to own them. And too many idiots in general owning dogs and not caring for them properly. We need something, but what is it? We really shouldn`t be encourage breed bias`s though, it`s already difficult for people to rent or get insurance with our own breed.
Well I guess that's my rant lol. I've been watching this thread since it's been posted but haven't had time to say my thoughts.


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## Stonevintage

Ha! I left Cali because I could see the prices going crazy. Couldn't water your lawns - water rationing.

Now, I live in an area that has so much water. Guess what - we have to pay extra on our water bills to subsidize our utility company that is mandated to pump water down to Cali! You can't win.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Always a danger to making a game dog a pet even if the real workers where a couple gens back. Sometimes, you get a genetic or environmental problem that leads to this.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@llombardo Excellent point. Insurance companies are in the market to make money, not to promote nor discriminate against any breed. Your information on German Shepherds killing three people last year is not correct. There have possibly been three deaths by German Shepherds over the last three to four years, but not this year or last. Pit Bulls are number one when it comes to extreme attacks and fatalities. There has been at least 15 Pit Bull fatalities this year alone, most of them babies, children and elderly.

@Debanneball Relatively few communities in the US have laws regulating Pit Bulls and muzzles, especially ones that need it the most.

@jschrest Animal Control today faces a lot of issues. One problem today is that if you work AC, in many areas, you are going to spend your work day dealing with and handling Pit Bulls. Many good people have left the field as this is not what they wanted to do with their lives leaving Pit Bull advocates to fill the voids. Don't expect to get much law enforcement from many of them. Many have an axe to grind.

@Saphire You stated that bite stats for Pit Bulls have dropped dramatically after enacting BSL. Isn't that the primary purpose of BSL? To reduce dog bite rates and the severity of attacks by the breed(s) doing the deed?

@yuriy Why should owners of other breeds be forced to spay and neuter their dogs because there is a Pit Bull problem? Many shelters in a lot of area are teeming with Pit Bulls, not other breeds. It is nearly a million Pit Bulls being euthanized in the US every single year for over a decade, not other breeds. In fact, there is a major shortage of other breeds in shelters for adoption in many areas. If German Shepherds or any other breed were filling the shelters and facing this euthanization rate, I would venture to say their respective communities would be very active in resolving the issue, not denying it.

@Jenny720 Fining after the attack does not bring back the lives of pets that have been killed or repair the damage to a child facing years of reconstructive surgery.

@wolfy dog You are correct. You will not change the minds of the fans of the breed, but you can educate the minds of those who think it is all about how you raise and train them. You can't hug and kiss the genetics out of a dog.

@valb I feel your pain. Until you have seen your dog in the jaws of an unrelenting Pit Bull, and given your all to save your loved one, you can't impress on others how it feels to be so helpless in defending your little buddy. If it were a Rott or a GSD a few good kicks would have solved the problem, the same can't be said about Pits. They are genetically bred to grip and not let go.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Haters are people who don't think the lives of innocent victims matter and who bash and villify these victims and their families.

As of this year, the ADBA no longer cross registers American Staffordshire Bull Terriers as American Pit Bull Terriers. They feel they are too different to any longer be considered one and the same.

Karen Delise is a leading Pit Bull advocate. To waste one's time reading anything written by her in a search for fair and unbiased information regarding her heart breed would not be considered time and money well spent. One's resources would be better spent on researching unskewed ALL breed information by somebody without a horse in the race, comparing apples to apples, and making up one's own mind.

As previously pointed out on another post, the Pit Bull advocacy will stop at no underhanded tactic to keep its breed in the status quo, including throwing other breeds, such as the German Shepherd or Boxers under the bus hence stirring up the fear that our breed will be next. One can't compare mere dog bites to Pit Bull maulings as in this video.

There is an important aspect to note as the Pit Bull advocacy is well funded and they are pushing their all breed laws in lieu of laws that address the problem at hand. Ohio repealed its effective BSL just a couple of years ago and now it is one of the leading states in dog bite related fatalities by Pit Bulls again. In those two short years, Ohio is for the third time revisiting its ineffective all breed dangerous dog laws as its watered down laws are doing little to impact the carnage.

Yes, a Lab here and a Golden there over the past decade or two have been responsible for extreme attacks, but you can't compare one every three, four, or ten years to 15 or more by one breed just in the last few months.


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## Jenny720

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @llombardo Excellent point. Insurance companies are in the market to make money, not to promote nor discriminate against any breed. Your information on German Shepherds killing three people last year is not correct. There have possibly been three deaths by German Shepherds over the last three to four years, but not this year or last. Pit Bulls are number one when it comes to extreme attacks and fatalities. There has been at least 15 Pit Bull fatalities this year alone, most of them babies, children and elderly.
> 
> @Debanneball Relatively few communities in the US have laws regulating Pit Bulls and muzzles, especially ones that need it the most.
> 
> @jschrest Animal Control today faces a lot of issues. One problem today is that if you work AC, in many areas, you are going to spend your work day dealing with and handling Pit Bulls. Many good people have left the field as this is not what they wanted to do with their lives leaving Pit Bull advocates to fill the voids. Don't expect to get much law enforcement from many of them. Many have an axe to grind.
> 
> @Saphire You stated that bite stats for Pit Bulls have dropped dramatically after enacting BSL. Isn't that the primary purpose of BSL? To reduce dog bite rates and the severity of attacks by the breed(s) doing the deed?
> 
> @yuriy Why should owners of other breeds be forced to spay and neuter their dogs because there is a Pit Bull problem? Many shelters in a lot of area are teeming with Pit Bulls, not other breeds. It is nearly a million Pit Bulls being euthanized in the US every single year for over a decade, not other breeds. In fact, there is a major shortage of other breeds in shelters for adoption in many areas. If German Shepherds or any other breed were filling the shelters and facing this euthanization rate, I would venture to say their respective communities would be very active in resolving the issue, not denying it.
> 
> @Jenny720 Fining after the attack does not bring back the lives of pets that have been killed or repair the damage to a child facing years of reconstructive surgery.
> 
> @wolfy dog You are correct. You will not change the minds of the fans of the breed, but you can educate the minds of those who think it is all about how you raise and train them. You can't hug and kiss the genetics out of a dog.
> 
> @valb I feel your pain. Until you have seen your dog in the jaws of an unrelenting Pit Bull, and given your all to save your loved one, you can't impress on others how it feels to be so helpless in defending your little buddy. If it were a Rott or a GSD a few good kicks would have solved the problem, the same can't be said about Pits. They are genetically bred to grip and not let go.



No it would not. I never said it would. I think your statement would be better suited toward the irresponsible owner who owns a dog that would do such things. Nothing brings back the lives of a pet that has been attacked or repair the damages to a child's face.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jenny720 said:


> No it would not. I never said it would. I think your statement would be better suited toward the irresponsible owner who owns a dog that would do such things. Nothing brings back the lives of a pet that has been attacked or repair the damages to a child's face.


Sorry, I did not mean to appear to direct it at you. I did mean for my message to address those who recklessly own dangerous dogs.


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## yuriy

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @yuriy Why should owners of other breeds be forced to spay and neuter their dogs because there is a Pit Bull problem? Many shelters in a lot of area are teeming with Pit Bulls, not other breeds. It is nearly a million Pit Bulls being euthanized in the US every single year for over a decade, not other breeds. In fact, there is a major shortage of other breeds in shelters for adoption in many areas. If German Shepherds or any other breed were filling the shelters and facing this euthanization rate, I would venture to say their respective communities would be very active in resolving the issue, not denying it.


I do think that Pitt Bulls have a higher-than-normal chance of being genetically pre-disposed to certain aggressive behaviours, but I do not agree with blaming the breed. If people were allowed to own tigers, I'm sure many people would, and I don't doubt we'd be hearing about daily tiger attacks. This is a question of proper handling and proper breeding. 

The problem with poor breeding and worse handling is not limited to Pitt Bulls. I see seriously problematic dogs in my own neighbourhood and various local parks on a _daily_ basis. Pitt Bulls make up an insignificant percentage of these dogs. The fact of the matter is that the cost of entry into dog ownership is insignificantly low, and this results in many, many inappropriate pairings between dog & handler.

I don't think there is a particular excess of Pitt Bulls (vs. other breeds). Here in Vancouver they make up a very small percentage of the dogs I encounter on the street. From what I'm reading, it sounds like dog breed popularity varies geographically, so I believe *all* dog owners are in the same boat, and we should all be jointly rowing it to shore.

I understand that altering a dog is a touchy and personal subject. I can also understand the arguments made by those who do not wish to alter. Regardless of how each of the two sides feels, I think both sides can agree on two facts:

1. There is a huge abundance of available dogs (between shelters, responsible breeders, backyard breeders).
2. Non-fixed dogs are the only ones who can contributed to the abundance in #1.

With these indisputable facts in mind, I suggest very, very heavy control over the means to add new puppies to the population. If forced alterations are too extreme, then I say introduce very severe penalties for accidental pregnancies. If two dogs mate and a litter is produced, the owners of the two parent dogs should be legally responsible for everything the puppies (and later adult dogs) do in their life. You bring it into this world, you're responsible for it. No excuses.

Require dogs to not only be registered, but also show proof of where the dog came from, enforce this very, very seriously, and penalize through the roof anyone that willingly illegally breeds dogs. Breeding should be controlled, done responsibly, and in moderation. The people doing so should be qualified. 

Additionally, there should be mandatory courses or other training that should be a legal pre-requisite to buying a puppy. You need to study and pass a test to drive a car, why should owning a dog be any different? In inexperienced hands, both can cause a lot of damage. I'm really not a fan of getting the government (along with licensing, fees, oversight, etc.) involved in every little thing, but this is one of the cases I believe it to be warranted. Handler and dog training should be mandatory. Every dog should be able to pass a certain level of basic obedience by a certain age, and this should be enforced. The only people that would have an issue with this are people that should not own dogs to begin with.

This is a _people_ problem, not a _dog_ problem.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> who recklessly "own" dangerous dogs.


??? Pretty much says it all for me! I'd say if people have a dog problem look in the "mirror" for solutions! But yeah I guess "that doesn't" work??

With that said, me and my "responsibly" owned "Dangerous Dogs" will just say:


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## MineAreWorkingline

yuriy said:


> I do think that Pitt Bulls have a higher-than-normal chance of being genetically pre-disposed to certain aggressive behaviours, but I do not agree with blaming the breed. If people were allowed to own tigers, I'm sure many people would, and I don't doubt we'd be hearing about daily tiger attacks. This is a question of proper handling and proper breeding.
> 
> The problem with poor breeding and worse handling is not limited to Pitt Bulls. I see seriously problematic dogs in my own neighbourhood and various local parks on a _daily_ basis. Pitt Bulls make up an insignificant percentage of these dogs. The fact of the matter is that the cost of entry into dog ownership is insignificantly low, and this results in many, many inappropriate pairings between dog & handler.
> 
> I don't think there is a particular excess of Pitt Bulls (vs. other breeds). Here in Vancouver they make up a very small percentage of the dogs I encounter on the street. From what I'm reading, it sounds like dog breed popularity varies geographically, so I believe *all* dog owners are in the same boat, and we should all be jointly rowing it to shore.
> 
> I understand that altering a dog is a touchy and personal subject. I can also understand the arguments made by those who do not wish to alter. Regardless of how each of the two sides feels, I think both sides can agree on two facts:
> 
> 1. There is a huge abundance of available dogs (between shelters, responsible breeders, backyard breeders).
> 2. Non-fixed dogs are the only ones who can contributed to the abundance in #1.
> 
> With these indisputable facts in mind, I suggest very, very heavy control over the means to add new puppies to the population. If forced alterations are too extreme, then I say introduce very severe penalties for accidental pregnancies. Require dogs to not only be registered, but also show proof of where the dog came from, enforce this very, very seriously, and penalize through the roof anyone that willingly illegally breeds dogs. Breeding should be controlled, done responsibly, and in moderation. The people doing so should be qualified.
> 
> Additionally, there should be mandatory courses or other training that should be a legal pre-requisite to buying a puppy. You need to study and pass a test to drive a car, why should owning a dog be any different? In inexperienced hands, both can cause a lot of damage. I'm really not a fan of getting the government (along with licensing, fees, oversight, etc.) involved in every little thing, but this is one of the cases I believe it to be warranted. Handler and dog training should be mandatory. Every dog should be able to pass a certain level of basic obedience by a certain age, and this should be enforced. The only people that would have an issue with this are people that should not own dogs to begin with.
> 
> This is a _people_ problem, not a _dog_ problem.


I think what a lot of people fail to understand is that dog / animal aggression and game, i.e. to fight to the finish without regard to bodily harm or life itself, are two of the core qualities that make a Pit Bull a Pit Bull. Most dog breeds are purpose bred, not appearance bred. A Pit Bull which lacks these qualities is nothing but a mere shell of a Pit Bull. It is when people don't accept and acknowledge these qualities in a Pit Bull that Pit Bulls get into trouble. 

I think regarding mandatory speutering one must take in geographical areas. There is no, and has not been for nearly about fifteen years that I am aware of, surplus dog problem in my area. My area does ship in dogs from other areas. We do have surplus unadoptable Pit Bulls. They can sit in the cages forever even in our kill shelters because there are no dogs to displace them unless more Pit Bulls come in.

I see no need to force sterilization of all pet dogs because there is a Pit Bull surplus in my area. There is no abundance of shelter or backyard bred dogs in my area, unless you are talking Pit Bulls. There is actually an extreme shortage. To speuter all pet dogs would compound this problem, not alleviate it, except for Pit Bulls. In my area, this appears to be a breed specific problem, why not remedy the problem with breed specific solutions?


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## yuriy

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think what a lot of people fail to understand is that dog / animal aggression and game, i.e. to fight to the finish without regard to bodily harm or life itself, are two of the core qualities that make a Pit Bull a Pit Bull. Most dog breeds are purpose bred, not appearance bred. A Pit Bull which lacks these qualities is nothing but a mere shell of a Pit Bull. It is when people don't accept and acknowledge these qualities in a Pit Bull that Pit Bulls get into trouble.
> 
> I think regarding mandatory speutering one must take in geographical areas. There is no, and has not been for nearly about fifteen years that I am aware of, surplus dog problem in my area. My area does ship in dogs from other areas. We do have surplus unadoptable Pit Bulls. They can sit in the cages forever even in our kill shelters because there are no dogs to displace them unless more Pit Bulls come in.
> 
> I see no need to force sterilization of all pet dogs because there is a Pit Bull surplus in my area. There is no abundance of shelter or backyard bred dogs in my area, unless you are talking Pit Bulls. There is actually an extreme shortage. To speuter all pet dogs would compound this problem, not alleviate it, except for Pit Bulls. In my area, this appears to be a breed specific problem, why not remedy the problem with breed specific solutions?


It is a breed-specific problem because the population of _people_ that choose to create this problem happen to prefer Pitt Bulls. If tomorrow Pitt Bulls are banned, these same people will move on to a different breed, but the problems will remain. It may be Rotties, it may be GSDs, it may be Chihuahuas. Regardless of a dog's tendency to "fight to the death" or not, there will be dog attacks on an as-frequent basis as today, because the problem of irresponsible breeding & handling is not being addressed. Banning the breed is like prescribing Advil for a broken bone - you're not solving the problem, only temporarily covering it up. 

If, in your area, those BYB of Pitt Bulls were eliminated, but done so via across-the-board measures that were not restricted to only Pitt Bulls, the breed populations would balance out. We need to encourage responsible breeding and handling of _all_ dogs, not scapegoat a subset of the population that happens to be the current favourite of irresponsible owners.


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## MineAreWorkingline

yuriy said:


> It is a breed-specific problem because the population of _people_ that choose to create this problem happen to prefer Pitt Bulls. If tomorrow Pitt Bulls are banned, these same people will move on to a different breed, but the problems will remain. It may be Rotties, it may be GSDs, it may be Chihuahuas. Regardless of a dog's tendency to "fight to the death" or not, there will be dog attacks on an as-frequent basis as today, because the problem of irresponsible breeding & handling is not being addressed. Banning the breed is like prescribing Advil for a broken bone - you're not solving the problem, only temporarily covering it up.
> 
> If, in your area, those BYB of Pitt Bulls were eliminated, but done so via across-the-board measures that were not restricted to only Pitt Bulls, the breed populations would balance out. We need to encourage responsible breeding and handling of _all_ dogs, not scapegoat a subset of the population that happens to be the current favourite of irresponsible owners.


No where did anybody say anything about banning Pit Bulls that I saw on this entire thread, I am not sure what this has to do with anything that I wrote.

I will stand by my previous post and reiterate that if the shelters are loaded with Pit Bulls and have been for years, and Craig's Lists and Walmart parking lots are offering free to low cost Pit Bulls by the boat loads, mandatory spaying and neutering of other breeds will do nothing to ameliorate the problem of euthanizing nearly one million Pit Bulls each and every year by shelters.

If one were to believe that the Pit Bull's popularity is the root of its problems, I would then have to ask why aren't Labs, GSDs, and Goldens not suffering from the same plights in our shelters if popularity is linked to high euthanization rates?


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## yuriy

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No where did anybody say anything about banning Pit Bulls that I saw on this entire thread, I am not sure what this has to do with anything that I wrote.
> 
> I will stand by my previous post and reiterate that if the shelters are loaded with Pit Bulls and have been for years, and Craig's Lists and Walmart parking lots are offering free to low cost Pit Bulls by the boat loads, mandatory spaying and neutering of other breeds will do nothing to ameliorate the problem of euthanizing nearly one million Pit Bulls each and every year by shelters.
> 
> If one were to believe that the Pit Bull's popularity is the root of its problems, I would then have to ask why aren't Labs, GSDs, and Goldens not suffering from the same plights in our shelters if popularity is linked to high euthanization rates?


You are continuing to miss the point. Pitt Bulls did not breed themselves. They did not establish themselves as the "tough guy" dog. They did not drop their own leashes and give themselves the freedom to attack the people in the video that started this thread.

All these things were done by *people*. These are people that make bad decisions. Given access and the freedom to do so, this same population will continue making the same bad decision. Their instruments of choice - Pitt bulls - are of no matter. 

You do not blame a gun for the shooter's decision to pull the trigger. I am suggesting rules across the board, across all potentially problematic areas.

And for the record, there are plenty, and I do mean *plenty* of Labs, GSDs, and Goldens across all local shelters.


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## MineAreWorkingline

yuriy said:


> You are continuing to miss the point. Pitt Bulls did not breed themselves. They did not establish themselves as the "tough guy" dog. They did not drop their own leashes and give themselves the freedom to attack the people in the video that started this thread.
> 
> All these things were done by *people*. These are people that make bad decisions. Given access and the freedom to do so, this same population will continue making the same bad decision. Their instruments of choice - Pitt bulls - are of no matter.
> 
> You do not blame a gun for the shooter's decision to pull the trigger. I am suggesting rules across the board, across all potentially problematic areas.
> 
> And for the record, there are plenty, and I do mean *plenty* of Labs, GSDs, and Goldens across all local shelters.


First of all what is a "Pitt Bull"? Is that a new breed? What is a Pitt? I am talking about Pit (as in fighting "pit") Bulls. 

You can blame the owners all you want. The bottom line is that a) this would not have happened with the same owner with two Beagles and b) there were no human bite marks on the victim. Although the owner played a role, to lay the entire blame on the owner while absolving the breed will do nothing but perpetuate the Pit Bull mauling cycle.

A gun is an inanimate object. It will not make the decision to jump out of a second story window to attack an innocent victim like my neighbor's Pit Bull did. Apples and oranges. How about comparing a Pit Bull to a Clumber Spaniel? That makes more sense. 

For the record, there are no Labs, GSDs or Goldens in any shelters around me. Maybe where you live it is common, but not where I am. That would be an oddity unless they just flew some dogs in from another shelter. 

Let me call your attention to a thread that was started a day or two ago where another poster commented about where are all the mixed breed dogs, as all that is in there shelters is Pit Bulls. I can't tell you how many time I have heard this from people all over this country. Seems like my local shelters aren't the only ones filled with Pit Bulls and no Labs, GSDs, or Goldens. Count your blessings! I wish I could have adopted some of my dogs rather than buying them.


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## G-burg

> You can blame the owners all you want.


Of course you have to blame the owners?? And those that are breeding these types of dogs that are out of standard and not the true character of the breed..

The same crap is happening with all the working breeds.. 

This is not just a Pit Bull or Amstaff issue.. It's that this breed is the one that always makes the news... You don't hear about the Mali that ripped it's handlers ear off, or the shepherd that mauled the **** out of it's owners arms/hands/legs, or the Chow that mauled the owners friends face, or the Akita that killed the neighbors dogs, or the Cocker that bit the kid in the face..


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## Stonevintage

I found this yesterday. It's from an article that was in the Toronto Sun. The PB ban went into effect in 2005. This and several other articles state that the ban has been a success. One article mentioned that Boxers have become the bully dog of choice now. However, since the ban - no other breed of dog has filled it's place (not even close) to the number of attacks that were documented with the PB breeds. Interesting to note that several breed bites dramatically decreased. Was this because the owners realized they better get their act together?

So, a success story. One solution that strictly enforced - worked. I think that any alternative methods mentioned here would simple take too much policing (time and money) to enforce.


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## jschrest

Random, probably off topic question here: how do people get around ban breeds by claiming an animal to be mixed? It makes little sense to me. You have a pit mix. What is it mixed with? You mix a pit with any other breed that is known to have aggression issues (GSD) or one known to inflict great damage while attacking (ROTTIE), wouldn't you have more of a dangerous animal? I know little to nothing about breeding and lines, obviously  but wouldn't traits from both breeds be past down to that mix? Would a pit/lab mix be less predispositioned to snap than a pit/rot? 

I know the pit mix I had that turned on me once was a pit/lab, but I got him as a rescue, and he wasn't in a safe stable home before mine, so it's hard to say if it was the breeding or raising (or a combination) in that case. 

As for the animal control issue with pits, I can understand them being turned off and turning away after seeing pit after pit coming in. It's one of the reason I myself stop rescuing for years. It was pit after pit after pit. I'm not saying that they don't deserve a chance, or that they should all be put down, it just gets exhausting after awhile, and I, for one, started feeling like I was contributing to the issue rather than helping. I never sought them out, it was me getting calls, from my vet, friends, co workers. When I first started I had a mix of breeds coming in, but as soon as I took the first pit in, it's like I became the "pit lady" and that's all I would get calls on. They are hard breds to work with, and I was always concerned after rehoming them. I wasn't vested in the breed, I didn't "sign up" to be a pit rescuer, and that's what I had become. Have an issue with your pit? Call Jenn, she can tell you how to fix the issue. Or take your dog and "fix" him/her. It felt like the longer I was in it, the more I became an issue rather than solution. 

As for pit vs Pitt, I can't speak for others, but if capatalize the P, my phone autocorrects it to Pitt. Maybe that's why you see a lot of mispellings?


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## Baillif

Its the dog. Anytime a pitbull has a behavior problem in training its magnified by 100.

Are there good ones out there? Sure. Dogs out there that wouldnt hurt a fly? Yup. But there are a lot of problem dogs just waiting to powder keg into a tragedy. Thats part of the problem theres such a giant variance in dog between sweet and harmless to complete drivy lunatic within the same breed its easy for people to get a dog expecting one thing and ending up with another.


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## Magwart

The irony of this thread to me is that I know a lot of PB rescuers and shelter intake staff who love PBs and swear they can read them and know when they are going to lash out -- and those same people also swear GSDs are unpredictable and don't telegraph bites! I know at least a half dozen shelter vet techs and intake people who are very afraid of GSDs because they believe they are unpredictable and bite without warning. .

I've spent some time working with one shelter temperament evaluator (a PB fan) who wants to see the cues I'm seeing, and I think they're just missing the ear position cues from GSDs. GSD people know that GSDs have a conversation with you using their ear positions, and a quarter inch difference in angle means something. All their emotions are broadcast loud and clear though the ears. 

I've never known a GSD who didn't telegraph an intent to lunge very clearly with its ears and body language, but these people aren't seeing the telegraphing. They don't see what I see when I'm "reading" a GSD in a shelter eval, and I find it really weird since they are good at reading bully-breeds. 

I've never been bitten by a GSD in a shelter eval because DH and I are watching the ears along with other body cues--the ones who _would have _sunken teeth into me gave their intention away before they were close enough to me to be in striking distance. I wouldn't eval PBs though because I truly can't read them.

It makes me wonder whether reading a breed is like becoming fluent in a foreign language. Just because you can read one (GSD) may not mean you can read the other (PB). Just a thought.


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## Magwart

ETA: Mineareworkingline, you are lucky if there are no GSDs in shelters where you live. In the American South, Southwest (esp. Texas), and West Coast (esp. California), GSDs die in droves in shelters. There's no way rescues can get them all. Last time I checked in the national database (last year), GSDs were the second or third most euthanized breed in the US in shelters. In one mid-size city, over a two-year period, we logged over 100 of them coming in to one public shelter. Our most common age to see in this breed in my region is adolescent (1-2 y.o.), when people give up on a dog that suddenly got too big, too strong, and too energetic for them to handle without training or experience.


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## jschrest

Magwart, in shelters here, it's unusual to see any breed other than a chi(mix) or pit(mix). Very rarely do we see shepherds or labs. I don't think it's a lack of the breed being around, I see plenty of shepherds out and about, and we even have a FB meetup group for shepherds. I have a BYB across the street from me that has a few litters a year. I don't know where these dogs end up, because I know they aren't home to caring responsible homes. I think they are probably just thrown into someone's backyard. It's sad, I'd rather see them in shelters where they can be adopted into a home that will actually care for them and love them, than to see them just made into yard dogs. 

I find it easier to read pits than I do shepherds, but can still read both. The most difficult rescue case I had was a shepherd/rot mix. I rarely took in puppies, mainly because most people where willing to, it's the older dogs that got thrown by the way side, so I focused on those. But no one was willing to take this puppy. I was confused. It's a puppy, how much problem could it be? Man was I wrong. This pup was just wired wrong. It would be happily sleeping, and suddenly lunge up and take off attacking anything in sight, my feet baring most of the damage. It wasn't landsharking, it was a full on attack. Hackles raised, lips curled, and intent on drawing blood. He would be perfectly happy and playing with a toy, and turn and attack. I don't really know how to describe it, but you could literally see a switch flip with him and he would be in attack mode. He had his landshark moments, which were easy to spot. Normal mouthing, normal nipping. His attack mode was frightening. I deemed him to be out of my level of management and took him to a trainer. The trainer saw no issues the first two times and probably thought I was crazy (that little devil acted like a normal pup those first two visit). The third visit he unleashed his fury on the trainer. The trainer took one look at me and said he wasn't a dog that I could manage. He would be a very large, very dangerous dog. I agreed. I know my limits and am not afraid to admit it. He offered to take him in, and I handed over the leash. He was put down 2 months later after attacking and killing an adult Rottie, unprovoked, after 2 months of extensive training with the trainer. He showed no signs. No ears being cocked, no curving, nothing. Literally from sleeping or playing contently to full on attack in seconds. Apparently the trainer had let the adult Rot out into the yard and was going through training exercises, and the puppy jumped through a glass window, attacked, and killed the Rot. Sad situation all around. I learned later that every pup in that litter was eventually euthanized for much of the same thing this pup displayed.


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## counter

I volunteered at the Humane Society while deployed (yes, deployed) to Hawaii last year. That shelter had every breed imaginable. I posted pics of the GSDs I was taking for walks and dedicating most of my time to. They also had Dobermans, rotts, pits, etc. The dogs that were found and dropped off at the Humane Society were kept away from the adoptable dogs until they were able to pass a temperment and health test. Those pits and GSDs (and all other dogs: purebreds and mutts) that passed were moved to the adoptable area. Those who didn't were put down due to their aggression or reactive nature, or because of health reasons. So I would think other shelters across the Nation operated the same way. ONLY the pits who are NOT aggressive are available for viewing/adopting. I'm sure for every 1 pit in the adopted area, there are plenty more that get put down due to aggression, which is most likely due to lack of training, which would point back to the owners/handlers that originally had the pit and trained it wrong or didn't train it at all. The pits I spent time with there were wonderful dogs. I would own a pit in a heartbeat. I just prefer pointy-eared dogs instead.


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## wolfy dog

Shelters house mainly young Pits who passed their tests with flying colors before DA surfaces. Problems arise when they are maturing after adoption (generally speaking).
When do we actually see an old Pit?


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## MadLab

> Problems arise when they are maturing after adoption (generally speaking).


Maybe that could be due to the bad owner.

I can't stand it when people blame the dog.

Anyways carry on.


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## MadLab

And I've seen old pits / staffies / bullies etc

They look less 'pitty' for sure, you'd barely recognize them. Definitely dropped the bad boy image.


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## counter

All of the pits that made it to the adoption area at the Humane Society were older. None were young. But that's just 1 location out of the 1,000s across the US.


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## counter

Here's my old thread about my time at that location:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-hawaiian-humane-society-i-almost-cried.html


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Stonevintage Interesting chart and it makes sense. If people see what happens to the breeds committing the deeds, fearing their breed could be next, those people evidently woke up and smelled the coffee.

@jschrest People got around breed bans by stating their Pit Bulls or Pit mixes were Lab or Boxer mixes or else they said they were American Staffs or American Bulldogs in areas whose BSL did not include that breeds. When BSL passed in Australia and the UK, registration of American Staffordshire Bull Terriers skyrocketed as those who felt they were above the law chose to skirt the law on technicalities. This is why breeds such as AmStaffs and AB are now so frequently targeted for BSL as well, those breed owners can thank Pit Bull advocates for that. I also quit volunteering with shelters and fostering when everything became non stop Pit Bull. And thanks for the explanation on "Pitt", my phone doesn't do that, but it certainly is a plausible reason.

Here are the statistic on dog bite related fatalities caused by shelter dogs:
1858 - 1999 2 deaths by wolf hybrids
2000 - 2009 3 deaths: 1-Doberman, 1-Pit Bull, 1 Presa Canario
2010 - current 35 deaths: 23-Pit Bulls, 7-Bull Mastiffs, 2-Rottweilers, 1-Lab/Pit mix, 1-husky

@Magwart Good point. I have noticed too how those who rescue or advocate Pit Bulls are very quick to point the finger at German Shepherds and scream aggression to take the heat off of Pit Bulls and lay it on other breeds, especially German Shepherds. That is one of the reasons German Shepherd owners need to stay on top of the Pit Bull and BSL problem.

This child's mother was a known Pit Bull advocate and she did not feel the need to warn her child about people friendly Pit Bulls. Many neighborhood children played with this Pit Bull. This Pit Bull was temperament tested at the shelter prior to adoption.
6-year-old boy mauled to death by pit bull in North Carolina | Fox News

I know Texas and California are better represented across all breeds. It is pitiful that so many of those other breeds of dogs will lose their lives when there are homes waiting for them if only you could get them to shelters and rescues in other areas. But they are the silent victims, the adoptable ones who die because the shelters and rescues in areas where they would be adopted are full of unadoptable dogs. Pitiful, they did not have to die. Anybody with a heart will cry for these victims.

@Wolfy Dog Good point. The statistics show that the average age of a Pit Bull in a shelter is 18-24 months. They did a study once that spanned several shelters. While most bringing in Pit Bulls initially gave reasons as moving, dog got too big, and other bogus reasons, when shelter staff spent some time talking with them, most of those people admitted to turning in their Pit Bulls for unexpected animal aggression, be it with a family dog or cat, or other pets in the neighborhood.


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## wolfy dog

MadLab said:


> Maybe that could be due to the bad owner.
> 
> I can't stand it when people blame the dog.
> 
> Anyways carry on.


I am not blaming the dog or the people. I am speaking from experience, in our area only. It is what I have seen in the shelters. There are pregnant pits being shipped to the NW from CA and I have stopped seeing or recommending them as a trainer since they are not temperament tested in their previous shelter. There are just too many risks involved.


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## selzer

Magwart said:


> The irony of this thread to me is that I know a lot of PB rescuers and shelter intake staff who love PBs and swear they can read them and know when they are going to lash out -- and those same people also swear GSDs are unpredictable and don't telegraph bites! I know at least a half dozen shelter vet techs and intake people who are very afraid of GSDs because they believe they are unpredictable and bite without warning. .
> 
> I've spent some time working with one shelter temperament evaluator (a PB fan) who wants to see the cues I'm seeing, and I think they're just missing the ear position cues from GSDs. GSD people know that GSDs have a conversation with you using their ear positions, and a quarter inch difference in angle means something. All their emotions are broadcast loud and clear though the ears.
> 
> I've never known a GSD who didn't telegraph an intent to lunge very clearly with its ears and body language, but these people aren't seeing the telegraphing. They don't see what I see when I'm "reading" a GSD in a shelter eval, and I find it really weird since they are good at reading bully-breeds.
> 
> I've never been bitten by a GSD in a shelter eval because DH and I are watching the ears along with other body cues--the ones who _would have _sunken teeth into me gave their intention away before they were close enough to me to be in striking distance. I wouldn't eval PBs though because I truly can't read them.
> 
> It makes me wonder whether reading a breed is like becoming fluent in a foreign language. Just because you can read one (GSD) may not mean you can read the other (PB). Just a thought.


I have never been present when a pit bull attacked anyone (actually made contact and caused an injury). I have been present when GSDs did, and every time I could read the GSD, and every time it was one bite, usually requiring some form of medical care. 

Someone more familiar with PBs than GSDs might be able to read them better. 

The difference for me is the length of the attack and the amount of damage done. Taking something the strength and courage to manage bulls and crossing it with dogs with the go go go of terriers, and you have a formidable breed that is likely to go over the top. 

Continuously breeding these dogs for the traits that make them excel in blood sports only makes them that more likely to go over the top. 

Humans may have made this breed, and maybe humans need to obliterate it. I don't know. I don't like the idea of demanding people kill their pets. But if these attacks continue, I would not be surprised if governments do make laws against them. And if they do, I would hope they would go to mandatory spay/neuter if this type of dog, than going straight to the euthanize all of them. 

Why not BSL? I know everyone says if not pit bull, than the thugs will go after Rottweilers, or GSDs, and we will be next. I disagree. Even crappy GSDs do not do the damage that pits do. They bite once or twice and then they are pretty much done. I don't like being lumped together with the breeds that do the damage that pit bulls do, and I am getting tired of the threats and laws that curtail all dogs because a group of breeds are seriously dangerous. People have vilified the idea of BSL. 

Pit bull owners are trying to get the backing of all dog owners by scaring them into believing they will be next. If they would clean up their own act too, that might work ok. But they aren't. We see and hear of serious attacks like these, and people do everything from blaming the victim to denying what the dog is. But they aren't addressing the problems. Why should the owner of a setter or a golden share the same constraints as pit bulls, when the likelihood of them maiming or killing someone is pretty near zero. Why not BSL?


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## newlie

I have to say I am still on the fence about this, mostly because I think there must be some pitbulls/pitbull mixes who for whatever reason don't fit the profile, who have lived their entire life without showing any aggression to humans at all. I also agree with those who point out that bad owners can turn a dog of any breed into a loose cannon.

But, I also think it's shortsighted not to credit genetics with being part of the problem. I mean, a lot of people go to breeders for their puppies because they believe and want a dog that has all the benefits of good bloodlines, so it goes without saying that if genetics can pass on positive things, it can also pass on tendencies that are negative and destructive. In the hands of the right people, maybe those tendencies can sometimes be checked and maybe not. But in the hands of the wrong people? Bad news.


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## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> I have to say I am still on the fence about this, mostly because I think there must be some pitbulls/pitbull mixes who for whatever reason don't fit the profile, *who have lived their entire life without showing any aggression to humans at all*. I also agree with those who point out that bad owners can turn a dog of any breed into a loose cannon.
> 
> But, I also think it's shortsighted not to credit genetics with being part of the problem. I mean, a lot of people go to breeders for their puppies because they believe and want a dog that has all the benefits of good bloodlines, so it goes without saying that if genetics can pass on positive things, it can also pass on tendencies that are negative and destructive. In the hands of the right people, maybe those tendencies can sometimes be checked and maybe not. But in the hands of the wrong people? Bad news.


No disrespect intended, but many Pit Bull owners feel the same way. It is common for them to say after their Pit Bull mauled and killed a family companion animal that their Pit Bull is still a nice dog, he never growled at a human. 

I feel differently, I feel other lives matter too. I don't believe that a Pit Bull's life is more important than my dog's life or your dog's life. I don't believe that any dog should endure what this Lab puppy went through. These fenced in Pit Bulls probably never growled at a human either.

WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC

LiveLeak.com - pit bull kills a lab after eating it alive (comments)


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## newlie

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that I think only human lives matter because I don't. I should have said "who have lived their entire life without showing any aggression at all." This, really more than anything, is a sticking point with me, the fact that there is bound to be some percentage of pit bulls who haven't done anything at all but are being tarred with the same brush as those who have.

However, I also think that it's hard to fight genetics and tendencies that have been bred into these dogs for years and years would make them a questionable dog to own. I cannot see myself ever owning one and I certainly would have a hard time trusting them around children.


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## misfits

So, I forced myself to watch that video.I'm not going to join the argument about bully breeds, but something really bothered me. I got the impression the whole thing was set up, and then the person filming did absolutely nothing to help that poor lab! If they let that dog die in that manner just to make their point about pit bulls, that is absolutely disgusting!!!


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## jschrest

Misfits, I totally agree. They did nothing to try to get that lab away. They allowed an entire limb to be ripped off! He didn't start spraying the dogs until well after he say filming them tearing into that poor dog. He made one lame attempt to pull him away, and then stepped back again. Then filmed that poor dog laying there in pain and agony. They didn't try to help that mauled dog at all. I literally reared up and my stomach was churning watching that video. How do you let that happen?!? 

It seemed like he was trying to get the two pits worked up again after he finally drug that poor dog away by striking the fence a bunch. Why wasn't he doing that while they were literally tearing limbs off that poor dog?!?! Looked like a bait dog situation to me, and he probably owned the pits


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## MineAreWorkingline

I disagree. No where on the video shows where anybody was even present when the Lab had his leg ripped off and hunks of flesh removed from its back. It took mere seconds for people to start throwing water on the attacking Pit Bulls. Just like the opening video on this thread, people do not know how to break up a mauling. I believe these people heard the puppy screaming and upon coming on the scene were taken aback. One wasted little time in getting water in an effort to break up the fight. Most people don't carry buckets of water with them in case of a Pit Bull attack.


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## MadLab

What people forget is that their dog is a serious predator, no matter how they like to dress it. The way the eyes are set in the head, the sensitivity of the nose, the athletic body, the powerful teeth. Them tools are for stalking, catching and killing.

Make no mistake, you live with a potential killer. Once that dawns on you, maybe you can see how if that power is not controlled then problems may arise. And problems do arise in many breeds.

What I think about a dog actually killing another is that they built up to that point. It doesn't have to be pure genetic attraction. The learn how to fight or catch and then they go on to more serious acts.

My point is, a dog that goes to this extreme has been trained to do it or has been mismanaged and neglected. Any dog can be dangerous. Google GSD bite child and unfortunately you see negative results against GSD.

When it comes down to it I believe the pit bulls are on of the most neglected dogs on the planet with a harsh history. But If people look beyond 1830's and research the old english bulldog origins, they'll see that many peasants had bully breeds as pets and the whole bull baiting and dog fighting fraternities were organized along side trying to move the peasants off the good country land into the cities. At the same time was the Irish FAmine which was designed to do the same job to the peasants and kill a few million. You couldn't have peasants with strong burly dogs, so they started getting banned and abused. That was the start of BSL whether people like to look that far back or not. 

To me a mastiff mix which I believe modern pits are, should be only owned by responsible adults who have some experience with these breeds. They should be confiscated if out and about with out owner.


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## Baillif

You guys just saw a video where a man was being mauled and a whole bunch of people barely did anything and at least two filmed. Is it really all that surprising nobody wanted a piece of two of those dogs when only a dog was at risk?


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## jschrest

Baliff, I think the fact that the second video had dogs behind a fence makes a bit of a difference. I'm sure many people would think twice about helping someone where they were in a position to be attacked as well, but the pits destroying that lab were behind a fence, so as long as they didn't put their hands/arms in reaching distance, they weren't in a position to be attacked as well. 

For me, I think that would easily be a situation where I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if it was my dog being mauled, and **** the legal ramifications. Jesus, they ripped his entire leg off!


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## Baillif

There are pitbulls out there that bring a whole new level of aggression and prey drive that does not occur naturally in nature. Not mentioning names but Ive seen and heard about pits that were so relentless to take out prey they could be fried with e collars at the highest level, helicoptered by a prong off the ground into a tree/wall/etc and choked out until they lost consciousness in an attempt to dissuade them from going for those things and they still continued to do it.

There are some monster impressive specimens of dog out there and Ive seen them end up in pet homes.


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## newlie

I know I should, but I cannot watch the video, it makes me sick just to read the postings about it..


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## jschrest

Newlie, I wish I hadn't watched the video. It's sickening. I rewatched after reading comments that they did try to get the dogs off asap, and it does look that way after watching a second time. I think I was in shock the first time and missed it. It's not something I would recommend watching. 



newlie said:


> I know I should, but I cannot watch the video, it makes me sick just to read the postings about it..


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## mikeyg

You know, I've always sort of peripherally loved dogs my whole life, but just in the last few years I've really found them incredible, and it's led to my first GSD puppy arriving in a few weeks(!).

In researching different sorts of dogs over the last few years, coming in with no bias at all, I was pretty surprised to see the level of acceptance, or even active support for Pit and Pit-like breeds. Again, as an "outsider" to the dog world who had no preconceived notions regarding different breeds, the numbers and qualitative data on the severity and unpredictability of Pit attacks were staggering. The overwhelming stats on overall bite reduction in municipalities enacting bans or controls on the breed is also beyond the point of convincing. Numbers-wise it seems to be a cut and dry public health issue.

Dog breeds exist for a reason - we specifically "programmed" certain behaviors into certain dogs, and this current trend of saying that creatures designed to be surprise aggressors are just like any other dog, and it's always the owner - well, it's just a striking example of emotion over science.

I realize this is a longstanding issue in the animal world, and even boring to hear again for those of you with years of experience, but I appreciate the civil tone of this forum, so I feel comfortable sharing these thoughts here.


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## MadLab

> Dog breeds exist for a reason - we specifically "programmed" certain behaviors into certain dogs, and this current trend of saying that creatures designed to be surprise aggressors are just like any other dog, and it's always the owner - well, it's just a striking example of emotion over science.


Can you direct me to the dog specially designed as a pet. 

Maybe everyone should own Tibetan Terriers. 

Malamutes want to pull a sled 100 km a day. You think they'd be a good pet. Well guess what, they are in a lot of cases.

Bullmastiff, designed to protect large estates. You think they'd make a good pet. Well you guessed it, yes in a lot of cases great pet.

German pointer, designed to scent and sight prey, point, stalk, flush and retrieve. They make good pets too. lol

GSD, I wonder what it was designed to do. I hear it makes a good pet. 



> this current trend of saying that creatures designed to be surprise aggressors are just like any other dog, and it's always the owner - well, it's just a striking example of emotion over science


I didn't know a pit bull was bred/designed to do surprise attacks at all. The actually pit dogs were bred for stamina and longevity in the pit. A real dog fight lasts hours. That is the cruel aspect of it imo. Plus the training involved and hardening of dogs. 

To say a regular dog who was never brought up in that environment will act the same as a dog in the situation is totally non scientific behaviorally. That is the emotional response and the uneducated one.

Some one with a dog prone to prey on dogs and or people ought to have that dog in a muzzle and under strict management. That is why people say blame the owner not the dog. It is the owner who allowed there dangerous dog out or off leash to cause destruction or damage.

I wonder though, are you interested in dog statistics in Ireland. We have a large mix of dogs here and very little issues. Does that tell us something about the social issues facing the US compared to other countrys. Why does the US have the highest rates of dog bites and fatalities in the world. Is it a social problem or is it a problem with a breed of dog?


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## Steve Strom

> Can you direct me to the dog specially designed as a pet.


Here's one:

http://www.thelowchenclubofamerica.org/

I think some of the toy breeds are specifically pets/companions.


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## yuriy

MadLab, your posts are far too logical, and making much more sense than they should be. Please revert back to emotional hysteria.


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## Baillif

He does bring up good points. The state of dog ownership and training in the US is pretty friggin poor compared to Europe and really a lot of the rest of the world. A lot of it goes to the US "fur baby" mentality.


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## Saphire

Baillif said:


> He does bring up good points. The state of dog ownership and training in the US is pretty friggin poor compared to Europe and really a lot of the rest of the world. A lot of it goes to the US "fur baby" mentality.


Don't forget "everything must be saved". Canada can't be far behind in this area.


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## Stonevintage

I don't watch video's like that. I know that people and animals suffer violent dismemberment deaths every day. I don't need to see it happen.

I don't think that the US will ever impose strong enough legal penalties to take care of the problem. I do know every time I take my dog out of the yard this type of brutal attack can happen at the hands of a stray PB breed.

It is astounding to me, that the prosecution rate at the felony level for human related dog attack deaths is less than 25%. The penalty for the negligent owner of a dog that attacks and severely injures or kills a dog on a leash is minimal or non-existent in most cities. 

Because of the lack of control and increasing threat, a responsible pet owner must be ready to use lethal force to defend their dog against an attack by an aggressive dog that is trying to kill their pet. The law is doing nothing to insure the safety of our families and pets in this regard. We must be prepared to rely on ourselves to adequately repel an attack. Law endorsement can't respond fast enough to help. People in the area can't be counted on and are rightfully cautious about intervening.


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## Magwart

wolfy dog said:


> Shelters house mainly young Pits who passed their tests with flying colors before DA surfaces.


Part of the problem on the shelter side is that I think there are some pretty serious flaws in the ASPCA's SAFER test protocol. This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I don't know what the solution is. 

I like that shelters are _trying _to temp test systematically, but the test seems to be designed for entry-level shelter staff with no background in dogs to implement by checking boxes. Any test has to be easy to use and "cookie cutter" for inexperienced staff to do routinely, or shelters won't use it. (Most don't have a behaviorist!) That aspect of it is exactly why it is so unreliable though.

_Allegedly_ bully breeds do better than any other breed on that test -- it's _the _test used nationwide in shelters to decide who's adoptable and who's not. For anyone curious about it, you can learn about it here: SAFER Assessment Items | ASPCA Professional 

I can't say why so many bully-breeds ace the SAFER test, but I know a lot of perfectly good GSDs (and mals) do terribly on SAFER. If they are naturally aloof, they'll score poorly. If they are suspicious when a stranger grabs their paw, they'll score poorly. If they are not friendly and happy when another goofy dog is walked nose to nose on leash, they score poorly. Those three things are often enough for them to be tagged as "rescue only" (not for public adoption) at many shelters, and put down immediately at others. If they think the rubber-hand-on-the-stick device is a tug toy, they are in deep trouble (and may even be labeled as potentially human aggressive...even though they just go for the interesting rubber "toy" not any human).

WL GSDs seem to fare the worst on it. Aloofness and natural suspicion doom them on that test. Bouncy, friendly, goofy dogs do great. 

We need a better evaluation system nationwide. I don't know what it ought to be, but I think what we have now isn't working very well (over-identifying GSD issues, and probably under-identifying PB issues). Or maybe it's a problem of evaluator bias?


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## wolfy dog

Generally speaking:
Bully breeds tend to be stable and secure (bred for the fighting ring) and as a result can handle the stressful environment of a shelter better than the more sensitive dogs so they pass their test easily in that environment. Once we were going to test a young GSD and she was peeing in a corner of her kennel from fear, before we took her out. We all thought it would be a basket case but once out of her kennel, she blossomed into a lovely dog. So yes these tests are not conclusive at all.
PS: I don't watch these kind of videos. I know what is going on and don't need these images to haunt me.


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## newlie

MadLab said:


> Can you direct me to the dog specially designed as a pet.
> 
> Maybe everyone should own Tibetan Terriers.
> 
> Malamutes want to pull a sled 100 km a day. You think they'd be a good pet. Well guess what, they are in a lot of cases.
> 
> Bullmastiff, designed to protect large estates. You think they'd make a good pet. Well you guessed it, yes in a lot of cases great pet.
> 
> German pointer, designed to scent and sight prey, point, stalk, flush and retrieve. They make good pets too. lol
> 
> GSD, I wonder what it was designed to do. I hear it makes a good pet.
> 
> I didn't know a pit bull was bred/designed to do surprise attacks at all. The actually pit dogs were bred for stamina and longevity in the pit. A real dog fight lasts hours. That is the cruel aspect of it imo. Plus the training involved and hardening of dogs.
> 
> To say a regular dog who was never brought up in that environment will act the same as a dog in the situation is totally non scientific behaviorally. That is the emotional response and the uneducated one.
> 
> Some one with a dog prone to prey on dogs and or people ought to have that dog in a muzzle and under strict management. That is why people say blame the owner not the dog. It is the owner who allowed there dangerous dog out or off leash to cause destruction or damage.
> 
> I wonder though, are you interested in dog statistics in Ireland. We have a large mix of dogs here and very little issues. Does that tell us something about the social issues facing the US compared to other countrys. Why does the US have the highest rates of dog bites and fatalities in the world. Is it a social problem or is it a problem with a breed of dog?


MadLab, I am curious if the comparison allows for the differences in population. If so, what factors do you think are responsible for the differing statistics?


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## G-burg

Goodness.. This thread has become REALLY interesting! :help:


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## Mikelia

Baillif said:


> He does bring up good points. The state of dog ownership and training in the US is pretty friggin poor compared to Europe and really a lot of the rest of the world. A lot of it goes to the US "fur baby" mentality.


 And many European countries do not regularly spay and neuter their dogs, yet we have a huge issue here in North America. This is why I don't know what the answer is. There is a HUGE overpopulation problem with pit bulls, they do overrun most shelters. And most homes are not suited to owning one. 
In my local shelter they rarely see pit bulls anymore, and when they do they label them as boxer crosses and so long as they pass temp test they get adopted out. If they look too 'pit bull' like they try to send them out of province to other rescue groups or homes. There are many gsds, and the majority of them fail their temp test and are put down. So my shelter is full of hounds, lab mixes and young crazy wild but friendly gsds. 
My problem with breed bans is I LOVE this breed. No other breed brings to the table what a real American pit bull terrier can. I cannot imagine never owning one. The things that make them nightmares also makes them the most amazing pets and working partners under the proper conditions. Not all homes can provide these conditions and this again leads me back to the 'I don't know what the answer is' issue. Pit bull advocates who think that all you have to do is love them, the low slum who think they are an extension of their egos, young couples getting their first dogs all allow our 'pit bull problems' to happen. 
I love my girl. She absolutely amazes me with her tenacity, power, confidence, determination, athleticism. I consider them similar to Mals in that sense, but they have a different personality. Happy go lucky, never hold a grudge, able to recover from anything. The shepherds are always pushing for rank, pitties just don't do that so much. Yes, they have intense prey drive and easily go over threshold without proper training and management. But they don't care near so much about rank. My girl has always just waltzed through life, making the best of every moment, never a care in the world. She's raised four puppies for me and they just bounce off of her, she puts up with everything from them. 
She's aprox 14 years old now and it pains me so much to see her age, to think that someday soon she won't be around any more. And that because of Bill 132 I cannot have another like her. She is my rock and I don't know what I'm going to do without her. 
And I will never agree that breed bans that take away my right to own what I want are ok. Make mandatory speuter laws, heavily restrict breeders, euthanize the ones in shelters (I totally agree there is way too many of them) but don't take away my right to own one.


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## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> MadLab, I am curious if the comparison allows for the differences in population. If so, what factors do you think are responsible for the differing statistics?


I think if you want to know the truth, this would be a good place to start: 

Dog Breed Laws in Ireland Dog Control - Department of the Environment, Community & Local Government

Rules relating to certain breeds of dog

The Control of Dogs Regulations 1998 place controls on 10 breeds of dogs namely the American Pit Bull Terrier; English Bull Terrier; Staffordshire Bull Terrier; Bull Mastiff; Doberman Pinscher; German Shepherd (Alsatian); Rhodesian Ridgeback; Rottweiler; Japanese Akita; Japanese Tosa and to every dog of the type commonly known as a Ban Dog (or Bandog). 
The controls, which must be observed when the dog is in a public place, require that these dogs, or strains and crosses thereof, must be kept on a strong short lead [only up to 2 metres long] by a person over 16 years of age who is capable of controlling them. The dog/s must be securely muzzled too. 

Furthermore, the Control of Dogs Act 1986 gives specific powers to the courts to order that a dog, which the court considers dangerous, must be kept under proper control or be destroyed. 

Denying the science of genetics is an emotional and uneducated response. To think that you genetically have a dog with high prey drive and do nothing to enhance it will result in a dog lacking in prey drive is totally non scientific and unrealistic.


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## newlie

Mikelia said:


> And many European countries do not regularly spay and neuter their dogs, yet we have a huge issue here in North America. This is why I don't know what the answer is. There is a HUGE overpopulation problem with pit bulls, they do overrun most shelters. And most homes are not suited to owning one.
> In my local shelter they rarely see pit bulls anymore, and when they do they label them as boxer crosses and so long as they pass temp test they get adopted out. If they look too 'pit bull' like they try to send them out of province to other rescue groups or homes. There are many gsds, and the majority of them fail their temp test and are put down. So my shelter is full of hounds, lab mixes and young crazy wild but friendly gsds.
> My problem with breed bans is I LOVE this breed. No other breed brings to the table what a real American pit bull terrier can. I cannot imagine never owning one. The things that make them nightmares also makes them the most amazing pets and working partners under the proper conditions. Not all homes can provide these conditions and this again leads me back to the 'I don't know what the answer is' issue. Pit bull advocates who think that all you have to do is love them, the low slum who think they are an extension of their egos, young couples getting their first dogs all allow our 'pit bull problems' to happen.
> I love my girl. She absolutely amazes me with her tenacity, power, confidence, determination, athleticism. I consider them similar to Mals in that sense, but they have a different personality. Happy go lucky, never hold a grudge, able to recover from anything. The shepherds are always pushing for rank, pitties just don't do that so much. Yes, they have intense prey drive and easily go over threshold without proper training and management. But they don't care near so much about rank. My girl has always just waltzed through life, making the best of every moment, never a care in the world. She's raised four puppies for me and they just bounce off of her, she puts up with everything from them.
> She's aprox 14 years old now and it pains me so much to see her age, to think that someday soon she won't be around any more. And that because of Bill 132 I cannot have another like her. She is my rock and I don't know what I'm going to do without her.
> And I will never agree that breed bans that take away my right to own what I want are ok. Make mandatory speuter laws, heavily restrict breeders, euthanize the ones in shelters (I totally agree there is way too many of them) but don't take away my right to own one.


Yes, and dogs like your are the reason why I am on the fence about breed bans.


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## Stonevintage

I would not have a problem with a max 6' leash rule and muzzle while in public for my GSD - IF the law was adhered to by all dog owners. I would NOT be willing to muzzle my dog and render her defenseless against an attack by strays or owners who did not adhere to the law.

I do not see the Ireland laws mentioning Chows, Huskies, Malamute etc.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> I would not have a problem with a max 6' leash rule and muzzle while in public for my GSD - IF the law was adhered to by all dog owners. I would NOT be willing to muzzle my dog and render her defenseless against an attack by strays or owners who did not adhere to the law.
> 
> I do not see the Ireland laws mentioning Chows, Huskies, Malamute etc.


I would have no problem either IF the German Shepherd was responsible for an inordinate amount of serious attacks on humans and animals when compared to other breeds.

My point in posting the law was a due to a comment made insinuating Ireland does not have the problems that the US does with Pit Bulls and speculated it could be Americans, at least that is the way I understood it. Of course Ireland would not have the same problems with Pit Bulls there when they have BSL in place mandating leashing, muzzling and age appropriate handling for Pit Bulls. The same has been proven in parts of the US and Canada that do have various forms of BSL compared to those that don't.


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## selzer

You can remove a muzzle in a fraction of a second. 

But maybe all this shunning of BSL, gets our breed lumped with these truly dangerous dogs, and then we have to use muzzles in public? That's nuts!

Yes, GSDs bite. You may have to see a doctor, get some stitches. Sucks. Can get that from riding a bicycle or roller skates -- I've done both to visit the ER. But, these dog-fighting breeds, cane corsos, pit bulls, presa canario dogs -- the put you IN the hospital, or the morgue. 

No one wanted to touch my BSL comments. That's ok. I know how that is just taboo around here. But I am sick to death of the damage these breeds of dogs do, and it hurts all dog owners, and owners of other interesting breeds even more. People who TRULY fancy these dogs have to get off their duffs. They have to stop defending them by suggesting the dogs are not to blame, the dogs are not really pits or whatever. They have to stop portraying their dogs as babysitter dogs. They have to stop bringing up Pete and The Little Rascals. The crap Pete did in The Little Rascals wouldn't fly today. We liked him as children, but if you go back and watch the series you will see Pete attacking PEOPLE. Yes, that's right, the dogs that should NEVER attack people. He did. Lots of times. And he was generally loose, or in the care of kids, that today someone would call Child Protective Services if they were on their own in a park across the street.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> You can remove a muzzle in a fraction of a second.
> 
> But maybe all this shunning of BSL, gets our breed lumped with these truly dangerous dogs, and then we have to use muzzles in public? That's nuts!
> 
> Yes, GSDs bite. You may have to see a doctor, get some stitches. Sucks. Can get that from riding a bicycle or roller skates -- I've done both to visit the ER. But, these dog-fighting breeds, cane corsos, pit bulls, presa canario dogs -- the put you IN the hospital, or the morgue.
> 
> No one wanted to touch my BSL comments. That's ok. I know how that is just taboo around here. But I am sick to death of the damage these breeds of dogs do, and it hurts all dog owners, and owners of other interesting breeds even more. People who TRULY fancy these dogs have to get off their duffs. They have to stop defending them by suggesting the dogs are not to blame, the dogs are not really pits or whatever. They have to stop portraying their dogs as babysitter dogs. They have to stop bringing up Pete and The Little Rascals. The crap Pete did in The Little Rascals wouldn't fly today. We liked him as children, but if you go back and watch the series you will see Pete attacking PEOPLE. Yes, that's right, the dogs that should NEVER attack people. He did. Lots of times. And he was generally loose, or in the care of kids, that today someone would call Child Protective Services if they were on their own in a park across the street.


I will touch this comment. I agree with just about everything you say. In order to learn the truth about Pit Bulls, I spoke to reputable Pit Bull breeders, and Pit Bull owners who know and love the animal aggressive, gamebred dog that Pit Bulls are. In order to manage and control, you have to acknowledge the problem. I spent a lot of time on game forums talking with these people. I found out that those who truly love the breed for what it is purposebred, hate hate hate Pit Bull advocates for the same reasons that you addressed. It is their denial of the problems that are causing and creating Pit Bull problems. 

Nobody would ever answer why they don't do anything about it, but the I have asked the same questions of German Shepherd owners, and got the same response... crickets. 

If we don't do something to protect our breed, who will?

And just for the stats, it is not the bred to the standard Pit Bull that is attacking, mauling and killing people and pets. Those attacks are very, very rare. It is the Pit Bull being kept as a pet by people who deny the genetic propensities of the breed that are responsible for the vast majority of these extreme attacks.


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I will touch this comment. I agree with just about everything you say. In order to learn the truth about Pit Bulls, I spoke to reputable Pit Bull breeders, and Pit Bull owners who know and love the animal aggressive, gamebred dog that Pit Bulls are. In order to manage and control, you have to acknowledge the problem. I spent a lot of time on game forums talking with these people. I found out that those who truly love the breed for what it is purposebred, hate hate hate Pit Bull advocates for the same reasons that you addressed. It is their denial of the problems that are causing and creating Pit Bull problems.
> 
> Nobody would ever answer why they don't do anything about it, but the I have asked the same questions of German Shepherd owners, and got the same response... crickets.
> 
> If we don't do something to protect our breed, who will?
> 
> And just for the stats, it is not the bred to the standard Pit Bull that is attacking, mauling and killing people and pets. Those attacks are very, very rare. It is the Pit Bull being kept as a pet by people who deny the genetic propensities of the breed that are responsible for the vast majority of these extreme attacks.



So, they fail as pets, and dog fighting is illegal. 

The thing is, I do not own them. It is easy for me to say, get rid of the lot, spay/neuter them all. But if others said the same about GSDs, I'd be tempted to pop them in the schnaz.


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## gsdsar

Dang, and I wanted to retire in Ireland. But I ain't muzzling my dog to walk about town. That's dumb.


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## Stonevintage

MineAreWorkingline said:


> And just for the stats, it is not the bred to the standard Pit Bull that is attacking, mauling and killing people and pets. Those attacks are very, very rare. It is the Pit Bull being kept as a pet by *people who deny the genetic propensities of the breed* that are responsible for the vast majority of these extreme attacks.


Exactly.

Ireland got me curious so I looked at Germany to see what measures they have implemented. Amazing and strict. I can't provide a link but if you Google Berlin dangerous dog the first on the search list is at dogsbite.org. An interested party in Berlin was concerned about the problem with regulation in the US and submitted their laws and procedures. Well worth a read.

Interestingly enough - Of course PB type is listed as are the Rottweiler and Doberman but not the Schaferhund (German Shepherd) though the dog bite statistic chart shows a 80% higher GSD bite rate than any other breed. Apparently, they have come up with a way to calculate to accommodate #'s of breed owned/bite record.

One of the interesting requirements; you must pass a field test to own a dog on their dangerous breed list to show you are capable of handling it. 

Breeding one of these dogs brings prison time. Importing without permission brings 2 years prison time.

If you get a DUI while driving or are convicted of drug abuse or dealing - you lose the right to own a dangerous dog.

The "fee" required to own a dog on the list is $1,300 per year.

Pretty amazing stuff - these laws were imposed in 2000 when a 6 year old child was killed by a PB. There were demonstrations in the streets by Berlin citizens to ban these dogs. It took this single child's death to bring about Berlin's dangerous dog laws. Difference in culture....


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## valb

"The penalty for the negligent owner of a dog that attacks and severely injures or kills a dog on a leash is minimal or non-existent in most cities." Nail, meet head. My city has an ordinance that requires all PB's over 4 months of age be spayed or neutered. The one that attacked us was 2 and intact. No license, running free. The city chose NOT to cite the owner for any violations, and I was left with a $323 un-recoverable vet bill. And a poor dog who for several days after, had a sore back from being held down on pavement and savaged. The city even gives out $250 vouchers with a list of vets in the area who agree to speuter for that price. So, free. No excuse. I don't know an answer, either, but there just has to be a way somehow.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> So, they fail as pets, and dog fighting is illegal.
> 
> The thing is, I do not own them. It is easy for me to say, get rid of the lot, spay/neuter them all. But if others said the same about GSDs, I'd be tempted to pop them in the schnaz.


I am not advocating getting rid of them. 

Personally, what I would like to see happen next is for the dog world to come out and take a stand not against the breed, but the lies and fallicies that surround it. 

Right now Jane Berkey, president of Animal Farm Foundation, and a major Pit Bull lobbyist, operates a non profit organization whose mission is: to securing equal treatment and opportunity for "pit bull" dogs. (Really? What other breed of dog needs its own organization to promote it?) Jane Berkey's operation is a closed door organization which means she does not have to take in every Pit Bull that comes her way and she does not. Instead, she opts to travel about and select shelter Pit Bulls that are NOT typical of the breed. She then promotes these cherry picked, atypical Pit Bulls as what people can expect from the breed in a deliberate and deceitful endeavor to present Pit Bulls as good family pets. Jane just happens to be friends with Diane Jessup. Diane Jessup, another Pit Bull advocate, (see here if you don't know who she is: About-Us) has publicly spoken out against Jane's underhanded tactics to push Pit Bulls into family homes and communities while hiding the truth about the average Pit Bull.

I think it would be wise for the dog world to speak out regarding dog / animal aggression, game as it applies to Pit Bulls, and natural gripping bite styles and the genetics behind them. If the public is armed with the truth that the right stuff has to be there first and that all the training, socialization, hugs and kisses is not going to put it there, they can make better decisions. I believe that education is key and the dog world has been silent for much too long. Once the wheels are in motion, it is going to be a difficult fight when BSL encompasses our breed.

As things stand, Pit Bull advocates are operating on their own separate facts, different from the rest of the world, based in emotions and not science and statistics. This practice is what it getting the Pit Bull into trouble.


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## newlie

mikeyg said:


> You know, I've always sort of peripherally loved dogs my whole life, but just in the last few years I've really found them incredible, and it's led to my first GSD puppy arriving in a few weeks(!).
> 
> In researching different sorts of dogs over the last few years, coming in with no bias at all, I was pretty surprised to see the level of acceptance, or even active support for Pit and Pit-like breeds. Again, as an "outsider" to the dog world who had no preconceived notions regarding different breeds, the numbers and qualitative data on the severity and unpredictability of Pit attacks were staggering. The overwhelming stats on overall bite reduction in municipalities enacting bans or controls on the breed is also beyond the point of convincing. Numbers-wise it seems to be a cut and dry public health issue.
> 
> Dog breeds exist for a reason - we specifically "programmed" certain behaviors into certain dogs, and this current trend of saying that creatures designed to be surprise aggressors are just like any other dog, and it's always the owner - well, it's just a striking example of emotion over science.
> 
> *I realize this is a longstanding issue in the animal world, and even boring to hear again for those of you with years of experience, but I appreciate the civil tone of this forum, so I feel comfortable sharing these thoughts here*.


Yes, I feel very good about this. All of us have debated the issue fairly and, despite strong opinions on both sides, have pretty much kept on track without disintegrating into personalities. It's not always easy to keep your temper when you feel passionately about something, at least that's true for me. But losing your temper usually means that you stop listening and when you stop listening, then you lose the opportunity that you might learn something.


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## MineAreWorkingline

valb said:


> "The penalty for the negligent owner of a dog that attacks and severely injures or kills a dog on a leash is minimal or non-existent in most cities." Nail, meet head. My city has an ordinance that requires all PB's over 4 months of age be spayed or neutered. The one that attacked us was 2 and intact. No license, running free. The city chose NOT to cite the owner for any violations, and I was left with a $323 un-recoverable vet bill. And a poor dog who for several days after, had a sore back from being held down on pavement and savaged. The city even gives out $250 vouchers with a list of vets in the area who agree to speuter for that price. So, free. No excuse. I don't know an answer, either, but there just has to be a way somehow.


It is illegal in this country for a Pit Bull to fight a Pit Bull. It is illegal to watch a Pit Bull fight a Pit Bull. It is not illegal for a Pit Bull to fight a Toy Poodle or a kitten. It is not illegal for the owners to stand idly by and watch the horror. Who writes these laws?


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## newlie

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is illegal in this country for a Pit Bull to fight a Pit Bull. It is illegal to watch a Pit Bull fight a Pit Bull. It is not illegal for a Pit Bull to fight a Toy Poodle or a kitten. It is not illegal for the owners to stand idly by and watch the horror. Who writes these laws?


That's insane!


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## valb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is illegal in this country for a Pit Bull to fight a Pit Bull. It is illegal to watch a Pit Bull fight a Pit Bull. It is not illegal for a Pit Bull to fight a Toy Poodle or a kitten. It is not illegal for the owners to stand idly by and watch the horror. Who writes these laws?


 The owner of the pit that attacked us was nowhere around. She was found because the pit did have a microchip. But, whatever laws are written, they aren't enforced. There was no media about this attack, either... so essentially, the owner got off Scot free and I would bet folding money, bragged about it. If other owners realize hey, there's no consequences, it just continues on down the line of people who violate. I even had to pay $10 for the police report, that had the owner's name redacted and then jump through hoops with the reporting officer and the head of Animal Services to even GET the address. All for naught.


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## MadLab

> Dang, and I wanted to retire in Ireland. But I ain't muzzling my dog to walk about town. That's dumb.


LOL

Nobody actually obeys dog laws or legislation but it exists.

Police don't enforce it. Police probably don't know the law.

Generally people who own guard dog type dogs go and research and see the law.

I see Police dogs with out muzzles GSD's.

I think the rule is there so if there is an accident then maybe you are responsible as you broke the law by not wearing a muzzle or not having prohibited dog on a leash. The issue arises if a lab bites a child, then the owner is not in any way legally obliged to pay compensation or destroy the dog unless it strayed on to he childs property. Thats where BSL breaks down compared to a dog law saying 'your dog is your responsibility, and should not bite child in public place under any circumstances.' *So the Law is Flawed here and it is not why there is so little injure and no killings of people by dogs. 
*
Why I pointed out Ireland is that I know there are very little incidents of dog bites yet we have many dogs which come under the dog legislation act. which are unmuzzled in public. Generally dog attacks happen in peoples homes in the states. That doesn't happen here. Maybe there is more of an awareness that dogs are dangerous to children in general and people are more cautious when they have a 'dangerous' breed.

Ireland is like the Hobbiton of the world anyways. Look at Czech rules and you'll see if your dog (regardless of breed) injures another or a person you are responsible legally. That is a good system I believe. A dog can go any where with you as long as it is muzzled.

I've a Bullmastiff cross and I don't use a muzzle on her now as she doesn't need it. But when I was training her she had a muzzle on in public. People though I was crazy/cruel but I was simply following the law. I was using it so I could bring this dog into populated areas safely as she was human reactive/aggressive, with environmental insecurity.

Fact is I was a responsible owner who trained my dog. Maybe the responsible owner is the bit that gets missing in the States in these neglect/negligence cases leading to injury. There are probably loads of reasons.


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## Kyleigh

There are so many levels of "responsible dog owner" and so many "definitions". 

For me, personally, a responsible dog owner means:

vaccines / titre 
training, training and more training
appropriate socialization (exposure not necessarily immersion) - even this has a radical swing in definition - some of the threads on here about people's concepts of socialization has been an eye opener for many
healthy diet
training, training and more training - working breeds - get them into something that makes them think

and my biggest pet peeve of some of the dog owners:

TREAT YOUR DOG LIKE A DOG - NOT A CHILD / PERSON

IMHO, the combination of the lack of training, lack of boundaries, and the dog not being treated like a dog is the biggest problem we have in our society today - not counting genetics / back yard breeders, etc.


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## llombardo

There are pit bull fights everywhere in Chicago. They steal pets to use as bait dogs. Recently I've seen a couple bigger groups get arrested and the dogs taken away. I helped many years ago break one up. They did these fights every werk n Friday's, same place(outside--kindy of nervy). If the dog lost they let it wander the streets all bloodied up with the hopes it would die from its injuries. Parents feared for kids walking to school. They would get so mad at the losing dog they would sometimes tie them to the railroad tracks. This is about money, gangs, and whose who. No one cares about these dogs, they are treated awful, starved, and beaten, but they are still loyal to their owner. Society is a mess. If you want to get the pit Bulls off the street, start with the streets. Get rid of the gangs and drugs. These are the people breeding and breeding and breeding for a quick buck and to have a bigger stock of fighting dogs.


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## jschrest

That's how it is where I live too. There are many pit fighting rings, and the kisser is thrown out like trash, if not beaten to death by his angry owner. I also live in a border town, 20 minutes from two different borders (Los Algadones and San Luis). Dog fighting is a popular "sport" there, and either not illegal, or not upheld if it is illegal. They have their fights on the streets in well populated areas. Most of the adverts for pits for sell come from Mexico. They breed the winners, pull the most promising pup, and sell the rest for money. So yes, we have a population of pits bred specifically for fighting over populating responsible owners here. 

Instead of dealing with the real issue and putting an end to the dog fighting and breeding of these animals, we have FB groups dedicated to "saving" these animals. I think they need to shift their focus to putting an end to the fighting and breeding instead of dedicating so much time and money to rehabbing dogs and rehoming them. Many don't know what they are doing and rehome to unsuitable homes. It makes me cringe to see the posts. I know they truly just want to help the dogs, but they are making things easier on the fighters/breeders. Much like myself years ago.


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## Stonevintage

Some parts of the United States have been going downhill fast. You may wonder what 3rd world country you are in when you drive through one of these crumbling neighborhoods. Poverty, crime, high unemployment, low education - and dog fighting.

That is a whole other problem or group of problems. Social and cultural issues won't be resolved here. 

It would be interesting to see what LE would do if, any citizen who witnessed abuse against an animal would simply take a picture with their cell phone - note the time and location and send it to their local LE agency. Disclosure about the abuse for which documentation was submitted could be made public periodically along with what steps LE took as a response......


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## Jenny720

This story upsets me till this day but since dog fighting rings are mentioned it is a story to share. Many years ago I had run into a person who told me they had dropped their dog off to the local animal shelter to be put to sleep. The dog was sick and could not afford to have the veterinarian put him to sleep. A few days later he got a phone call from the police saying that they found his dog's mangled body at a dog fighting ring. They had identified his dog because the dog was still wearing his dog collar and identification tag. Someone from the animal shelter stole the dog and brought the dog to the dog fighting ring. The animal shelter is now and has been under new management.


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## newlie

It makes so sad (and very angry) that some people can be so cruel.


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## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> Some parts of the United States have been going downhill fast. You may wonder what 3rd world country you are in when you drive through one of these crumbling neighborhoods. Poverty, crime, high unemployment, low education - and dog fighting.
> 
> That is a whole other problem or group of problems. Social and cultural issues won't be resolved here.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what LE would do if, any citizen who witnessed abuse against an animal would simply take a picture with their cell phone - note the time and location and send it to their local LE agency. Disclosure about the abuse for which documentation was submitted could be made public periodically along with what steps LE took as a response......


The police stay out of it for the most part. Animal control is more involved but very busy and not always available. Some people have called local news to get it out there. I have personally walked up to two guys with two pit bulls that looked suspicious. They broke up once I asked what they were doing. 

All the problems you mentioned are intertwined. People lose their jobs, some resort to crime of all levels. There are people on government assistance that can't find work. I'm ok with that but get your butt to your kids school, volunteer, make sure your kids are in school not on the street. These kids that run the street are offered things they are lacking at home and jump to be accepted. They are promised money that they never had, but they have to deal drugs. Then these people come into their area and then you have gang wars, because they aren't losing money to no one. They come up with ways to have that money, stealing, fighting dogs, etc. it all starts at home. There is no reason for kids to run the streets if mom and dad are sitting at home not working.


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## LaRen616

I watched the video of the dogs attacking the man, I could not bring myself to watch the video of the dogs attacking the Lab. 

In the video of the man, I would like to think that I would kick the crap out of a dog to save someone. I would kick those dogs as hard as I possibly could and I would aim for their heads! I couldn't believe more people weren't physical with those dogs!

I didn't see the little girl because I wasn't paying attention to her but what an irresponsible parent for bringing her anywhere near that scene! 

Those dogs need to be put down, that attack was way too horrible and way to violent for them to be allowed to live.


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## Jenny720

LaRen616 said:


> I watched the video of the dogs attacking the man, I could not bring myself to watch the video of the dogs attacking the Lab.
> 
> In the video of the man, I would like to think that I would kick the crap out of a dog to save someone. I would kick those dogs as hard as I possibly could and I would aim for their heads! I couldn't believe more people weren't physical with those dogs!
> 
> I didn't see the little girl because I wasn't paying attention to her but what an irresponsible parent for bringing her anywhere near that scene!
> 
> Those dogs need to be put down, that attack was way too horrible and way to violent for them to be allowed to live.


Yes i could not watch the lab video either. I believe they are putting those dogs down-no question. They just have to keep the dogs alive for a certain amount of days by law to watch for any signs of rabies.


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## valb

LaRen616 said:


> I watched the video of the dogs attacking the man, I could not bring myself to watch the video of the dogs attacking the Lab.
> 
> In the video of the man, I would like to think that I would kick the crap out of a dog to save someone. I would kick those dogs as hard as I possibly could and I would aim for their heads! I couldn't believe more people weren't physical with those dogs!
> 
> I didn't see the little girl because I wasn't paying attention to her but what an irresponsible parent for bringing her anywhere near that scene!
> 
> Those dogs need to be put down, that attack was way too horrible and way to violent for them to be allowed to live.


 At the risk of keeping on with my personal experience, I in fact DID kick, pulled my right leg back and gave it all I could, to many locations, to no avail. Dog did not even whimper. For those dogs, for some dogs, high pain thresholds or whatever, just does not cut it. My right hip was sore for days afterward, and it did NO GOOD. What I am surprised at, is that no one grabbed a tire iron or a baseball bat. I get that there maybe couldn't be guns used, but again, you need to get something strong and KEEP USING it until the dogs are no longer a threat. Throwing a chain, water... no, none of that. No pepper spray either. THAT doesn't always work, and can enrage them.


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## Jenny720

My daughters's friends mom has a pit bull lab mix. It just turned one years old. They had a cat the dog and cat were not best friends but lived peacefully together until a few weeks ago. She heard a lot of scuffling upstairs and found the dog in her closet with the cat in its mouth. The dog would not let go of the cat and she tried to pry his mouth open and got bit accidentally in the process almost loosing a finger. Her daughter ran down stairs to get the dogs box of treats. She brought up the treats and shook the box of treats and with that window of one second where the dog lost focus on the cat , she whacked the dog in the head with something and he dropped the cat. It was her dog so she able to direct him quickly out of the room. The cat was dead due to internal injuries. Feel so sad for kids had to witness this. They worked well as a team though. I wouldn't think a shake of a box of treats would distract the dog even for a second but it did in this case even though it was to late.


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## MineAreWorkingline

valb said:


> At the risk of keeping on with my personal experience, I in fact DID kick, pulled my right leg back and gave it all I could, to many locations, to no avail. Dog did not even whimper. For those dogs, for some dogs, high pain thresholds or whatever, just does not cut it. My right hip was sore for days afterward, and it did NO GOOD. What I am surprised at, is that no one grabbed a tire iron or a baseball bat. I get that there maybe couldn't be guns used, but again, you need to get something strong and KEEP USING it until the dogs are no longer a threat. Throwing a chain, water... no, none of that. No pepper spray either. THAT doesn't always work, and can enrage them.


It is obvious that those making suggestions for Pit Bull removal from victims are well intentioned but inexperienced with Pit Bull attacks on victims be they human or animal. Not so long ago a Pit Bull was shot in the head to stop its aggressing. It was the third separate incident that week where an attacking Pit Bull was shot in the head and lived.

Regarding baseball bats, who walks around with a baseball bat or keeps one handy, especially for the express purpose of stopping a Pit Bull attack? (Probably would be ineffective, many have tried before without success). And the bigger question is why should anybody have to? Are we to give up our privilege of public safety so that somebody else not lose their right to own a Pit Bull? There is just something fundamentally wrong with people being forced to take precautions and adjust their life styles based solely on somebody else's choice of breed.


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## valb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is obvious that those making suggestions for Pit Bull removal from victims are well intentioned but inexperienced with Pit Bull attacks on victims be they human or animal. Not so long ago a Pit Bull was shot in the head to stop its aggressing. It was the third separate incident that week where an attacking Pit Bull was shot in the head and lived.
> 
> Regarding baseball bats, who walks around with a baseball bat or keeps one handy, especially for the express purpose of stopping a Pit Bull attack? (Probably would be ineffective, many have tried before without success). And the bigger question is why should anybody have to? Are we to give up our privilege of public safety so that somebody else not lose their right to own a Pit Bull? There is just something fundamentally wrong with people being forced to take precautions and adjust their life styles based solely on somebody else's choice of breed.


 Well I would tend to agree with you on it is wrong to have to take precautions, but nevertheless, we/I do. Will this ever happen to me the rest of my walking lifetime? Probably not, yet I am not going to take that chance. I only said tire iron or baseball bat as items that might have been handy or nearby in the original video. People were trying, I get it but I think it goes back more to what people were saying earlier in the thread about situational awareness. PLAN for what you are going to do in ANY emergency, create scenarios in your head, I've done it for years. "What would I do if I found a newborn infant in the bushes here?" And I have to disagree that a baseball bat or tire iron to the skull would not be effective. Again, the dog in my situation was STOPPED by a 2X4, at least long enough for Lillie and I to make it safely out of sight and away. Do enough that the man in the original video can get in one of the many doorways to buildings on that street.


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## MineAreWorkingline

To lay the blame for Pit Bull attacks on dog fighting, well, the stats just dont support that notion. The statistics show that fatalities by all dog breeds combined, including Pit Bulls, numbered on the average in the single digits PRIOR to dog fighting becoming illegal. It was not until the popularization of the cruelty of dog fighting by humane organizations in appeals to garner support from the public in promoting laws that would criminalize dog fighting that the breed also started to gain popularity as a pet and this is when the mauling and attacks began to become a problem with increasing numbers every year. To this day, it is still NOT the dog fighting Pit Bull that is causing damage and harm to the general public, it is the Pit Bulls kept as family pets.


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## CrackedGSD

dogs don't really have the ability to kill a human as quickly as one would like to believe. a human that is fighting a dog, defending themselves, would be hurt, but ultimately more than likely not killed by a dog. it's not surprising that fatalities from dog attacks are super low.


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## MineAreWorkingline

This is one family's sad story of failing to prepare enough. The pictures are graphic but the story is well worth the read about somebody else's reality. If you can, skip the pictures, but do read how some communities are forced to live without laws to protect them and their loved ones.


Warning, Graphic pictures!

Neighbor's pit bull attacked my dog!!


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> My daughters's friends mom has a pit bull lab mix. It just turned one years old. They had a cat the dog and cat were not best friends but lived peacefully together until a few weeks ago.


This is not directed at you! But ...



"NO" the dog and cat "best friends??" Exactly what was "there" definition of that??? 

I have more than a decade of experience with "Bully breeds and up to 15 to 17 cats and 5 dogs, living together. And in all that time there have been "Zero" Dog v Cat situations! My record as regards Dogs and Cats living together is on here and in all the thousands of words I have typed on the subject ... I don't believe I ever used the term "Best Friends??" The solution to Prevent this happening could have been found by as I say ... "look in the mirror!"

But in as much as I "OWN" dangerous dogs what would I know???

And for the record, I would think a WL GSD (as is mine) would fall under that definition??

The dog didn't "snap" the owner was a tool! As I say the people that care to "look in the mirror" for solutions to their "dog problem!" 

Maybe the solution is a buy a Pitt get a mirror, program??

And since I love doing pics:










Any of "my" dangerous dogs" could do this, but then we have a lot of mirrors!


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## Stonevintage

I really enjoyed the conversation in this post. Thanks Bailiff. The threads seem to be degenerating and the focus has changed. But, it was great while it lasted. I have learned quite a bit - the posts from the rescues, how these issues are handled in other countries - posts from responsible owners and their opinions on the problem, the history of the breed, the effect (or lack) of breed bans and where that might lead. One of the better posts - lots of information shared.


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## charger

A baseball bat is not always effective. We had a RCMP Shepherd grab a kid by the arm up here, and would not let go even after being hit over the head by a shovel.
Even heard of dogs being immune to a tasers effects.


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## Jenny720

Chip18 said:


> This is not directed at you! But ...
> 
> 
> 
> "NO" the dog and cat "best friends??" Exactly what was "there" definition of that???
> 
> I have more than a decade of experience with "Bully breeds and up to 15 to 17 cats and 5 dogs, living together. And in all that time there have been "Zero" Dog v Cat situations! My record as regards Dogs and Cats living together is on here and in all the thousands of words I have typed on the subject ... I don't believe I ever used the term "Best Friends??" The solution to Prevent this happening could have been found by as I say ... "look in the mirror!"
> 
> But in as much as I "OWN" dangerous dogs what would I know???
> 
> And for the record, I would think a WL GSD (as is mine) would fall under that definition??
> 
> The dog didn't "snap" the owner was a tool! As I say the people that care to "look in the mirror" for solutions to their "dog problem!"
> 
> Maybe the solution is a buy a Pitt get a mirror, program??
> 
> And since I love doing pics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any of "my" dangerous dogs" could do this, but then we have a lot of mirrors!


The point of the story to give someone ideas in case they were in situation such as this. The dog totally disconnected like the plug was pulled out. The box of treats seemed to plug him back in. In that picture I hope that cat doesnt decide to run i!


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## Mikelia

While we are all sharing pit bull stories, I will share my first encounter with the breed. I was about eight or nine years old, we lived in a lower income area and our cats were inside/outside cats. My cat was on our front porch when a loose pit bull (more amstaff-ish, he was a big boy) came onto our porch and grabbed the cat and would not let go. All the neighbours came outside and were hitting him with everything they could find: baseball bat, someone started hitting him with one of those swan flower pots (which was full with dirt and plants), hockey sticks. There was a huge crowd, including myself and my friends (we were sent inside to be kept safe) and everyone was yelling and hitting the dog and he would not let go of my cat. My aunt and uncle (my gsds breeders) lived across the street at the time and my uncle (who is a large man) sat on the dog and choked the him until he was about to pass out and let go of my cat. My cat ran under the car and my aunt got him out, his back was broken in half, he died within moments.
Horrific, right? We made front page news with a picture of my family on our front porch holding a picture of Simba the cat. My mom was interviewed for the news, they ran a whole story on pit bull attacks.
But a little backstory on the dog. I'd seen this dog almost daily, they walked him with weights on his back, he always carried this huge (I mean huge) stick, rumour had it they kept rats in their basement to sick him on. I watched them sick him on squirrels in the park. The day he attacked my cat he jumped off of their balcony and they just watched him go. Probably in a drug stupor. He roamed the neighbourhood for a good hour before he found my cat. I watched him jump a six foot privacy fence into my next door neighbours yard where their little girl was playing. He jumped back out and continued roaming. I could see his house from my backyard, his owners on the balcony. The attack happened, which I already covered, and tons of people beating the dog. My aunt put a leash on him when he let go of my cat and that dog listened to every command he was given. He sit stayed until animal control came to get him, he was never aggressive to any of the many people who had hit him. He just sat there with a big goofy pit bull smile thinking he had done good. He had rabies tags on, animal control contacted his people, they never claimed their dog. I was young but I understood that dog had been trained and encouraged to act how he acted, had horrible owners who didn't even to bother getting him when he jumped off the balcony, that watched him jump into backyards. He was killed for doing what he thought was his job and that broke my heart. I earned a lot of respect for the breed that day. What the dog did was horrible, and he deserved to die, he could not be a pet, but he was doing what he had been taught to do and died because of it. 
I'm sorry but just because some dogs have horrible owners (whether purposefully or negligently) does not mean a whole breed should go extinct, that just is not the answer.


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## charger

Agree with above post.
Are we hearing more stories because the vicious one are being bred and passing that down to their offspring ?


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## MineAreWorkingline

charger said:


> Agree with above post.
> Are we hearing more stories because the vicious one are being bred and passing that down to their offspring ?


Reputable breeders breed to meet or exceed the breed standard. A Pit Bull's breed standard calls for dog / animal aggression and game, i.e, to fight to the finish (kill) without regard to self harm or safety, a lack of self preservation.

What you are hearing about is over one hundred years of a breed that has been bred to fight and kill being placed in the hands of the general public who is being duped by less than honest shelters, rescues and breed advocates that lead Joe Average to believe any dog breed is how you raise, train, hug and kiss it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I saw this posted on the internet, perhaps it was even on this forum. If I understand it correctly, the kill bite is genetic, not trained. Please correct me if I misunderstood what was written:


"Re: prey drive vs. prey aggression

I think to try to define things in terms of "prey drive" vs "prey aggression" is overly simplifying things, and also erroneous.

Prey drive (and herding behavior for that matter) is rooted in the natural hunting sequence of canines:
find game (track) - stalk - flush - chase - catch - kill - possess (eat) OR retrieve (return to den)

Through selective breeding, humans have adjusted this natural hunting instinct to suit our purposes. Some breeds and individuals possess certain parts of the sequence, but not others. The most obvious examples of this are in the hunting breeds.

Setters and Pointers for the most part possess the early parts of the sequence: track - stalk - flush. But, because of selective breeding, it stops there. A bird dog who chases the game once flushed is going to get himself shot. Many hounds possess most, if not all, of the sequence. Including chase - catch -kill. The Beagle, for example, is a rabbit hunting dog. It chases the rabbits. If it could catch the rabbits it would, but it can't. The reason it is designed to be a small, stumpy legged dog is to make sure it can't catch the rabbits, or even get close, or else it will also be shot by the hunter. Other breeds have had most, if not all, of this hunting sequence bred out of them entirely.

Working and herding breeds like the GSD have also been bred to retain this hunting sequence, but in a slightly altered form that allows them to channel those behaviors into things like herding, protection, etc... rather than specific hunting behaviors.

Some don't have all of it, and these are the dogs who will chase, but don't try to catch or if they do catch they don't try to kill. Others will try to catch and kill. It doesn't depend on how strong the dog's "prey drive" is.. How vehemently it chases is a result of prey drive, but whether it tries to catch and what it does if it does catch isn't determined by it's level of drive, but rather what parts of the hunting sequence the dog came genetically programmed with. 

Since catching and killing prey involves what could be considered an aggression component, whereas chasing alone does not, I suppose one could say that dogs who possess that part of the hunting sequence (and will catch and kill) have "prey aggression" in addition to just "prey drive". But as I said, I think that isn't exactly an accurate way to look at it."



I have four cats that I scraped off the streets and took in after Pit Bull maulings in various states of injury, degloving, dismemberment, etc. There was a fifth that did not make it. I can NEVER look at the breed of dog that did such heinous acts to such small, friendly loving companion animals and did it with such glee and enthusiasm with any semblance of anything good and cannot fathom the mindset that would. To me, there is nothing admirable about a breed responsible for the horrible slaughter of companion animals.


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> The point of the story to give someone ideas in case they were in situation such as this. The dog totally disconnected like the plug was pulled out. The box of treats seemed to plug him back in.


 That's understood, my point was ... "that" dog, was never properly "counter conditioned" with cats. Most likely chased the cat in a "friendly" manner at every opportunity?? Just a "hunch??"






Jenny720 said:


> In that picture I hope that cat doesnt decide to run i!


 Trust me! It would make no difference! My dogs can "distinguish" between a Jack Rabbit and "any" cat "anywhere" cats are of "zero" interest to them and I'm not a Pro!

Those dogs will not move! They have been taught to "make good choices!" And as an aside ... a LE or Military K9 that "screws" with cats isn't of much value in doing there jobs.

Just saying.


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## Jenny720

Chip18 said:


> That's understood, my point was ... "that" dog, was never properly "counter conditioned" with cats. Most likely chased the cat in a "friendly" manner at every opportunity?? Just a "hunch??"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me! It would make no difference! My dogs can "distinguish" between a Jack Rabbit and "any" cat "anywhere" cats are of "zero" interest to them and I'm not a Pro!
> 
> Those dogs will not move! They have been taught to "make good choices!" And as an aside ... a LE or Military K9 that "screws" with cats isn't of much value in doing there jobs.
> 
> Just saying.


Im sure he wasnt but i really dont know. She works with a trainer. she has 5 dogs 3 kids and works full time. She bit off more then she can chew no arguing that. I myself have my own dog chasing feral cat if in backyard isssues working on it but not even close to being a sucess without me standing right near him on a leash.


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## Mikelia

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What you are hearing about is over one hundred years of a breed that has been bred to fight and kill being placed in the hands of the general public who is being duped by less than honest shelters, rescues and breed advocates that lead Joe Average to believe any dog breed is how you raise, train, hug and kiss it.


 I agree with this 100%. Add to that the countless idiots that own the breed to feed their own ego. 


> I can NEVER look at the breed of dog that did such heinous acts to such small, friendly loving companion animals and did it with such glee and enthusiasm with any semblance of anything good and cannot fathom the mindset that would. To me, there is nothing admirable about a breed responsible for the horrible slaughter of companion animals.


 I guess this is where I have trouble separating things. Pit bulls are NOT the only breed of dog that will catch to kill and enjoy doing it. My GSD I grew up with was dog aggressive with a high 'prey aggression' as you call it. She killed my favourite pet rat, she would kill outside cats (her housecats were fine), she would have killed any other dog in a heartbeat if given a chance. My dogs (gsds, not the pit bull) recently tried to kill one of my chickens. I have had gsd bitches get into fights where 2x4s would not stop them. I have had a labxhusky latch onto my arm like a trained schutzhund dog and I had to pry his jaws off of me and I have the scars to prove it. All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite, and the ability to bite/hold/shake/kill is certainly not limited to one breed. Our latest attack in my city that made the news was a black lab killing a maltese at a dog park, the ritzy neighbourhood dog park at that. 
I just want to clarify that I am not defending the breed in the sense that it is all how you raise them. They are genetically hardwired to bite and hold which is why, when they go bad, it is devastating. I do NOT believe the majority of the public is suited to own one. But I also do not believe the majority of the public is suited to own a german shepherd either. 
For the record I am really enjoying this thread. It is very neat to hear others opinions and see things from the other side. I hope it continues to remain civil


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> Im sure he wasnt but i really dont know. She works with a trainer. she has 5 dogs 3 kids and works full time. She bit off more then she can chew no arguing that. I myself have my own dog chasing feral cat if in backyard isssues working on it but not even close to being a sucess without me standing right near him on a leash.


That is going to be a much harder issue to solve! As you don't have cats. So if you want to understand how the dogs in the photo were most likely trained, by way of a protocol called "Crittering" see here:

Game Chasing (Crittering)

Pro's don't have time to "screw" around like "Pet People" do! E-Collar is not my thing but the author of that site "Lou" is a member here, you can PM him and ask questions! 

If the cat chasing is an issue for him E-Collar would be the way to go!


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## llombardo

My thing is that yes they are bred for certain things like most breeds are. They have high prey drives as do other breeds. The biggest fault with them is dog or small animal aggression. But they are loyal to a fault to their owners. I'm not sure where breeding is going wrong that they see humans as prey because that is not in their breed. A long time ago they were known to be great family dogs and great with kids. Lots of stories I hear that involve kids really could be with any breed. Lots of times its human error. Common sense says don't tie up a dog that can be territorial, give it a bone then let a child try to take that bone. Simply putting the dog in a crate would stop any tragedy, but people don't think. I've been attacked by pit bulls(well they were after my dogs) more then once, I do not hold it against the breed. They have it in them and if the owners know this(which they should) they need to be more careful and try to prevent these things. I'm more Leary of Rotts and huskies to be honest. I have met tons of pit bulls and besides the couple that wanted to eat my dogs not one was a problem. Robyn prefers Pitts and boxers over any other breed. We hear all these stories of the bites and maulings but there are plenty of stories of them doing good--saving humans(kids and adults), bouncing back after being severely abused, saving kittens in a fire. With the population as high as it is of this breed, there really isn't as many dog bites as there could be statistically. Logic says the more of them out there the more the number of bites will increase and keep making them look bad.


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## newlie

Mikelia said:


> I agree with this 100%. Add to that the countless idiots that own the breed to feed their own ego.
> 
> I guess this is where I have trouble separating things. Pit bulls are NOT the only breed of dog that will catch to kill and enjoy doing it. My GSD I grew up with was dog aggressive with a high 'prey aggression' as you call it. She killed my favourite pet rat, she would kill outside cats (her housecats were fine), she would have killed any other dog in a heartbeat if given a chance. My dogs (gsds, not the pit bull) recently tried to kill one of my chickens. I have had gsd bitches get into fights where 2x4s would not stop them. I have had a labxhusky latch onto my arm like a trained schutzhund dog and I had to pry his jaws off of me and I have the scars to prove it. All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite, and the ability to bite/hold/shake/kill is certainly not limited to one breed. Our latest attack in my city that made the news was a black lab killing a maltese at a dog park, the ritzy neighbourhood dog park at that.
> I just want to clarify that I am not defending the breed in the sense that it is all how you raise them. They are genetically hardwired to bite and hold which is why, when they go bad, it is devastating. I do NOT believe the majority of the public is suited to own one. But I also do not believe the majority of the public is suited to own a german shepherd either.
> For the record I am really enjoying this thread. It is very neat to hear others opinions and see things from the other side. I hope it continues to remain civil


I am, too! It has been really interesting, people with a lot of knowledge on both sides, considered opinions and credible research.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Mikelia said:


> I agree with this 100%. Add to that the countless idiots that own the breed to feed their own ego.
> 
> I guess this is where I have trouble separating things. Pit bulls are NOT the only breed of dog that will catch to kill and enjoy doing it. My GSD I grew up with was dog aggressive with a high 'prey aggression' as you call it. She killed my favourite pet rat, she would kill outside cats (her housecats were fine), she would have killed any other dog in a heartbeat if given a chance. My dogs (gsds, not the pit bull) recently tried to kill one of my chickens. I have had gsd bitches get into fights where 2x4s would not stop them. I have had a labxhusky latch onto my arm like a trained schutzhund dog and I had to pry his jaws off of me and I have the scars to prove it. All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite, and the ability to bite/hold/shake/kill is certainly not limited to one breed. Our latest attack in my city that made the news was a black lab killing a maltese at a dog park, the ritzy neighbourhood dog park at that.
> I just want to clarify that I am not defending the breed in the sense that it is all how you raise them. They are genetically hardwired to bite and hold which is why, when they go bad, it is devastating. I do NOT believe the majority of the public is suited to own one. But I also do not believe the majority of the public is suited to own a german shepherd either.
> For the record I am really enjoying this thread. It is very neat to hear others opinions and see things from the other side. I hope it continues to remain civil


I have nothing but respect for Pit Bull owners who acknowledge and accept their breed's heritage and potential, and manage and control them accordingly. Actually, I can say this about all breeds, but sadly, those who practice to deceive are doing a lot of harm to those who respectfully own the breed and the victims of the breed. I will repeat what I said in an earlier post, I believe the key now is EDUCATION. As long as people keep bringing any breed home with the propensity for aggression while believing they can hug and kiss the genetics out of the dog, the maulings and fatalities won't stop. 

I am not sure if you read my earlier post regarding Jane Berkey at Animal Farm Foundation. This is a very well funded organization whose intention is to deceive the public about Pit Bulls. They have even gone so far as to advise shelters not to make public the percentages of Pit Bulls they house as they believe that the only purpose that serves is to provide BSL advocates with fodder to further their cause. I am not saying that AFF is wrong in that aspect, but I am saying how does this help one nearly one million Pit Bulls being euthanized in shelters every year? They can be part of the solution but they choose to propagate the problem. 

I do agree partially with your second paragraph. Fatalities and maulings are by no means exclusive to Pit Bulls. But for those other breeds and instances you mention, they are not common, but not a day goes by where Pit Bull maulings and killings don't occur. I believe the responsibility lies on the breed in the hands of the uneducated and in the hands of people who just simply don't care.

I do agree that other breeds are game bred, usually other dog fighting breeds and terriers. I also agree that some breeds have a gripping bite style, but most don't although there are exceptions in every breed.

The information I posted earlier about the various aspects of prey drive was written by a very well respected breeder in this forum. I chose not to divulge her identity, if she chooses to come forward that will be her decision. However, it is quite evident, at least to me, that the kill bite is not something normally present in many breeds dependent upon the purpose for which they are bred.


----------



## wolfy dog

We have a Pit rescue in our area and the owner actually said that she wished they wouldn't breed them anymore.


----------



## Muskeg

Plenty of breeds will kill cats, chickens, squirrels, and rabbits. Even my family dog growing up, some sort of sheepdog mix- who co-existed happily with cats, loose chickens, small children, and rabbits for all her 15 years- caught and killed a squirrel and a muskrat. She was a wonderful family dog and used to sleep with our cats. 

Small animal aggression is quite common across all dog breeds and plenty of dogs who might kill a squirrel are perfectly safe around kids, family cats, livestock, etc. 

Dogs that kill other dogs are less common. In fact, unless there is a good reason (male-male competition perhaps, or a bitch protecting puppies) very few dogs will actually fight to kill another dog- tiny dogs are a slightly different story. 

Dogs killing people is so rare it makes the news. Dogs going after their owners with intent to kill is exceedingly rare.

Here's where I think pitbulls stand out from the "crowd". Plenty of dogs of any breed might kill a cat or other small animal unless trained or managed. Not at all unusual. 

Relatively few dogs will kill another dog, and of those few that do quite a large percentage are pitbull or pitbull types (Dogos, presas and the like). Although plenty of other breeds may be represented.

Extremely few dogs will go after a person with intent to kill, and even fewer will go after their owner with intent to kill. Of these a very high percentage (from news reports and scientific articles I've read) are pitbulls (or similar). 

So... the short of it is- all dogs can bite and many dogs have instincts to kill small animals. Pitbulls are unusual in the amount of damage they can do, the intent behind an attack (to kill a dog or person rather than just a fight or a quick fear bite), and their immunity to attempts to stop an attack once it has begun. 

As WorkingLine said, as long as people are aware of this in the breed and manage accordingly, there isn't a problem. It is when people try to pretend the breed is something it is not when we run into issues.


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> As WorkingLine said, as long as people are aware of this in the breed and manage accordingly, there isn't a problem.


Really??? Now maybe, not several pages ago!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Plenty of breeds will kill cats, chickens, squirrels, and rabbits. Even my family dog growing up, some sort of sheepdog mix- who co-existed happily with cats, loose chickens, small children, and rabbits for all her 15 years- caught and killed a squirrel and a muskrat. She was a wonderful family dog and used to sleep with our cats.
> 
> Small animal aggression is quite common across all dog breeds and plenty of dogs who might kill a squirrel are perfectly safe around kids, family cats, livestock, etc.
> 
> Dogs that kill other dogs are less common. In fact, unless there is a good reason (male-male competition perhaps, or a bitch protecting puppies) very few dogs will actually fight to kill another dog- tiny dogs are a slightly different story.
> 
> Dogs killing people is so rare it makes the news. Dogs going after their owners with intent to kill is exceedingly rare.
> 
> Here's where I think pitbulls stand out from the "crowd". Plenty of dogs of any breed might kill a cat or other small animal unless trained or managed. Not at all unusual.
> 
> Relatively few dogs will kill another dog, and of those few that do quite a large percentage are pitbull or pitbull types (Dogos, presas and the like). Although plenty of other breeds may be represented.
> 
> *Extremely few dogs will go after a person with intent to kill, and even fewer will go after their owner with intent to kill. Of these a very high percentage (from news reports and scientific articles I've read) are pitbulls (or similar). *
> 
> So... the short of it is- all dogs can bite and many dogs have instincts to kill small animals. Pitbulls are unusual in the amount of damage they can do, the intent behind an attack (to kill a dog or person rather than just a fight or a quick fear bite), and their immunity to attempts to stop an attack once it has begun.
> 
> As WorkingLine said, as long as people are aware of this in the breed and manage accordingly, there isn't a problem. It is when people try to pretend the breed is something it is not when we run into issues.


I have followed this issue for quite some time. There are three more aspects that make Pit Bull attacks different from others. 

Pit Bulls generally will not recognize signs of submission, too frequently they take another dog going belly up as an opportunity to disembowel where another breed will stop.

Cannibalism is extremely rare throughout the animal kingdom, it is not so rare with attacking Pit Bulls. I am not talking about them ripping chunks of flesh off of their victims, I am talking the actual eating of the flesh they ripped off of a dog or eating the dead body of a dog they just killed. They have also been know to eat human flesh. One victim actually saved herself by feeding a chunk of flesh that an attacking Pit Bull ripped off her leg to the Pit Bull so she could make an escape.

The third issue is not only the intent to kill a human, but each and every year in increasing numbers, the stats show the human the attacking Pit Bull intends to kill is their own family children or owner.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Really??? Now maybe, not several pages ago!


Really? Maybe that is how you chose to understand it?

The bulk of my posting had been copy and paste, links to other sites, and quoting statistics that can be found on the web. Why shoot the messenger?


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Really? Maybe that is how you chose to understand it?


Uh oh??? Checking.....




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why shoot the messenger?













Ops! Did it again! :crazy: 

Well, at least I didn't go all "Homie and stuff" over something I misconstrued! 

So a thank you to Dogma13 and Yuri ...see I told you I'd learn something from you! :hug:

MineAreWorkingline do I owe you an apology??


----------



## MadLab

> Cannibalism is extremely rare throughout the animal kingdom, it is not so rare with attacking Pit Bulls.


You are fixated about a breed of dog doing harm and all other bad things to humanity and the animal kingdom.

I understand your back story and hatred for pit bulls but you should try to remain open minded and realistic. You are the opposite of some one who says pit bulls are harmless. It is a polarized position. I don't expect to hear any logical sense from that position.


Go back and read llombardos post and see her view on the social issues behind the problems with pit bulls and the people who breed them. 

Do you agree. Is it the dogs are reared in despicable conditions and are a result of serious animal abuse? Or is it all genetic behavior?

How can something come out of that environment and be normal.

But I have an example.

There was a bull breed rescue in Ireland and they had 20 pitbulls. Now the lady running it began to use all the donations to the rescue to finance her life and began to neglect the dogs. The dogs were in sheds with maybe 5-6 dogs in each.

The rescue was busted and the dogs re -rescued. None of the dogs reverted to cannibalism. They were starving and they did not all fight together or kill each other. They simply sat there and suffered.


----------



## llombardo

MadLab said:


> You are fixated about a breed of dog doing harm and all other bad things to humanity and the animal kingdom.
> 
> I understand your back story and hatred for pit bulls but you should try to remain open minded and realistic. You are the opposite of some one who says pit bulls are harmless. It is a polarized position. I don't expect to hear any logical sense from that position.
> 
> 
> Go back and read llombardos post and see her view on the social issues behind the problems with pit bulls and the people who breed them.
> 
> Do you agree. Is it the dogs are reared in despicable conditions and are a result of serious animal abuse? Or is it all genetic behavior?
> 
> How can something come out of that environment and be normal.
> 
> But I have an example.
> 
> There was a bull breed rescue in Ireland and they had 20 pitbulls. Now the lady running it began to use all the donations to the rescue to finance her life and began to neglect the dogs. The dogs were in sheds with maybe 5-6 dogs in each.
> 
> The rescue was busted and the dogs re -rescued. None of the dogs reverted to cannibalism. They were starving and they did not all fight together or kill each other. They simply sat there and suffered.


The reality is not only the dogs in the social issues I described are a mess, so are the humans. Society seriously plays a role in a lot of things that are just wrong within society. It just keeps getting worse daily. People label almost everything as a race issue, using color, well how about let's look at it as the human race, which is disgusting now a days.


----------



## llombardo

I was thinking of this thread when I found this killer Pit Bull..


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## llombardo

All we see is the negatives, we never really acknowledge the positive. For every bite story there are probably 4-5 good stories that just don't matter. Lets be fair here, they aren't all bad. In fact most of them will do anything much like a GSD to protect their owners. This is just a few stories, there are many more here..Pit Bull Heroes Hall of Fame | BSL News

It is impossible to say they are all bad, just like everything else there are going to be good and bad within any group, whether its people or dogs.


https://www.thedodo.com/hero-pit-bu...ero-pit-bull-saves-owner-fire-1080227680.html

Pit bull hailed hero, saves Oklahoma family from fire | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

Stray pit bull found nursing two-day-old kitten on side of Dallas road | Examiner.com

Pit bull hailed a hero for saving family from fire (VIDEO) | Q13 FOX News

Family of little girl attacked by dog calls their pit bull a hero | Examiner.com

This Pit Bull Saved A Cat From A Coyote Attack! Now He Won't Leave Her Side!

Pit Bull Saves Owner's Life, Proves Dogs Are Part Of The Family

http://www.justmansbestfriend.com/p...m-her-husband-in-a-domestic-fight-must-watch/

This 72-Year-Old Woman Is Saved From Silent Killer...By Her Pit Bull!

Dog has her day, hailed as a hero | Boston Herald

Pet Pitbull - Positive Press

Mother and baby attacked by man posing as UPS driver, saved by dog | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

Rescued pit bull in New Jersey credited with saving owner's life | Examiner.com

Pit Bull saves 2 women from deadly cobra,dies wagging his tail

Chihuahua Mix Attacked By Coyote, Saved By Pit Bulls - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com


----------



## Baillif

llombardo said:


> I was thinking of this thread when I found this killer Pit Bull..


Clearly the dog jumped into a childs bath, snapped, attacked the child, ate it, and then proceeded to take its place so as not to be caught. :crazy:


----------



## newlie

I am not so sure that the opposing sides in this discussion are as far apart as they seem. Both seem to feel that responsible, aware owners are key for this type of dog. The difference as I see it is that one side seem to feel any dog who is treated well and in the hands of people who can manage them will be OK and the other who feels pit bulls are somewhat unique in their heritage and genetics and for that reason, may NOT be OK in the best family in the world. Now, I am not sure how I feel about breed specific legislation because it seems to me to mean different things to different people in different locations. But it does seem important to me not to deny the genetic heritage of this breed and what appears to be the overwhelming difference in statistics between this breed and others in serious/fatal attacks. Certainly, other dogs bite, other dogs kill and other dogs have turned on their owners and owners children, etc. but not to the degree of pit bulls. In my own life, 99% of the time when I hear a story on the radio or read a story in the paper about a serious dog attack, I know the answer before I finish about what breed of dog was involved...and this is not to deny that there are plenty of pit bulls who live and die without showing any aggression at all.

Now, it would be interesting to have an idea what the population of pit bulls in the US is and how it compares with other breeds because you always have to factor that in. I am just making up figures here, but if there are 500,000 pit bulls in the US and 100,000 shepherds and there are 5 fatalities with pit bulls and 1 by the shepherds, then really, and I am not a statistician, there actually doesn't appear to be much difference. But in the same population, if there are 100 fatalities by pit bull and 5 by German Shepherds, then there is a problem.


----------



## Jenny720

Chip18 said:


> That is going to be a much harder issue to solve! As you don't have cats. So if you want to understand how the dogs in the photo were most likely trained, by way of a protocol called "Crittering" see here:
> 
> Game Chasing (Crittering)
> 
> Pro's don't have time to "screw" around like "Pet People" do! E-Collar is not my thing but the author of that site "Lou" is a member here, you can PM him and ask questions!
> 
> If the cat chasing is an issue for him E-Collar would be the way to go!



Thanks chip18 for info. We do have inside two cats, non issue. Its the all the feral cats, squirrels, ground hogs, that he loves to chase. He get close enough to a feral cat and did get scratched under his eye. So yeah seriously considering the e collar next step and had checked out lou's site in the past.


----------



## llombardo

newlie said:


> I am not so sure that the opposing sides in this discussion are as far apart as they seem. Both seem to feel that responsible, aware owners are key for this type of dog. The difference as I see it is that one side seem to feel any dog who is treated well and in the hands of people who can manage them will be OK and the other who feels pit bulls are somewhat unique in their heritage and genetics and for that reason, may NOT be OK in the best family in the world. Now, I am not sure how I feel about breed specific legislation because it seems to me to mean different things to different people in different locations. But it does seem important to me not to deny the genetic heritage of this breed and what appears to be the overwhelming difference in statistics between this breed and others in serious/fatal attacks. Certainly, other dogs bite, other dogs kill and other dogs have turned on their owners and owners children, etc. but not to the degree of pit bulls. In my own life, 99% of the time when I hear a story on the radio or read a story in the paper about a serious dog attack, I know the answer before I finish about what breed of dog was involved...and this is not to deny that there are plenty of pit bulls who live and die without showing any aggression at all.
> 
> Now, it would be interesting to have an idea what the population of pit bulls in the US is and how it compares with other breeds because you always have to factor that in. I am just making up figures here, but if there are 500,000 pit bulls in the US and 100,000 shepherds and there are 5 fatalities with pit bulls and 1 by the shepherds, then really, and I am not a statistician, there actually doesn't appear to be much difference. But in the same population, if there are 100 fatalities by pit bull and 5 by German Shepherds, then there is a problem.


Here is a little example of numbers...taken right from Petfinder(by looking up pit bulls versus German Shepherds) Of course these numbers do not include a lot of humane societies, but a general idea. These number include both pure breds and mixes of each..

Pit Bulls German Shepherds
Illinois 644 153
Michigan 799 101
Florida 270 54
New York 1648 295
Texas 625 212
California 1515 791
Louisiana 245 44
Georgia 988 174

Totals 6734 1824

Just by these numbers alone there are more then 3.5x more pit bulls/mixes then GSD/mixes. I can almost bet that shelters in these areas are holding about 85% pit bulls and 15% of everything else.


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## Jenny720

Our animal shelters have almost all pit bull mixes. There was a time you would find many breeds in the animal shelter. I Enjoyed the great stories about pit bulls and the adorable picture. I have known only one pit bull. My friends dog. She had much experience with animals. Her pit lived in a house with a german shepherd, later two dobermans, many small animals, and 4 kids. This dog loved life and loved people. She acted like she was melting if you did not give her any attention. She was medium size but strong as ox. Their strength is very deceiving. I like to I always believed it was how you raised ,cared and trained the dogs as a pup is what make these dogs a good pet. You have to know what you are doing. When my moms neighbor who were extremely shady people and into shady dealings who owned a pit bull always knew to be cautious of the dog because of what they are capable in the hands of irresponsible and reckless people. I know it is a big risk getting a pit bull rescue because the new owner most likely does not know the history and the damage and abuse it went through. I have been seeing a lot more pit bulls but the ones i see are always on leashes and well behaved. This woman who owned the two pit bulls were arrested many times and the dog attacked other dogs and bit other people it is no surprise her dogs were as crazy as her. It is sad that it was allowed to escalate into the mauling of this man.


----------



## gsdsar

I am not a fan of the breed. That said, some of my favorite dogs on the planet are Pits. So I don't judge by breed alone. 

I am even a less fan of the pit advocates. Saying " it's how they are raised". I think that's bull. It's puts the blame solely on the human. 

We have all seen and heard stories of many breeds, that are in wonderful homes, that are crazy nervebags. Even when raised from puppyhood. Owners who have taken multiple classes, worked very very hard to help their dogs, and genetics won out. 

That's the problem with so many advocacy groups and why I dislike them. They refuse to acknowledge that genetics trumps an awful lot. And there are sooooooo many poorly bred pits out there that no matter how great the owner, the dog is not stable. 

That "it's how they are raised" also is hurting the breed. Why? Because that's the prevailing thought now. It's driving the cruddy breeders and leaving older dogs in the shelter. People want to "raise" their pit, not take on someone else's "mistakes" no matter how nice the dog.


----------



## llombardo

gsdsar said:


> I am not a fan of the breed. That said, some of my favorite dogs on the planet are Pits. So I don't judge by breed alone.
> 
> I am even a less fan of the pit advocates. Saying " it's how they are raised". I think that's bull. It's puts the blame solely on the human.
> 
> We have all seen and heard stories of many breeds, that are in wonderful homes, that are crazy nervebags. Even when raised from puppyhood. Owners who have taken multiple classes, worked very very hard to help their dogs, and genetics won out.
> 
> That's the problem with so many advocacy groups and why I dislike them. They refuse to acknowledge that genetics trumps an awful lot. And there are sooooooo many poorly bred pits out there that no matter how great the owner, the dog is not stable.
> 
> That "it's how they are raised" also is hurting the breed. Why? Because that's the prevailing thought now. It's driving the cruddy breeders and leaving older dogs in the shelter. People want to "raise" their pit, not take on someone else's "mistakes" no matter how nice the dog.


My dad adopted a senior pit bull from the shelter. He has some anxiety issues, but not to bad. He is a good dog, but won't let go of a toy no matter what we do So when he comes over, all toys are removed to avoid any issues.


----------



## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> Thanks chip18 for info. We do have inside two cats, non issue.


 Hmmm that is interesting??? I have not had the cat problem but to me it sounds like the solution is more control on structured walks and the proper used of a Slip Lead Leash which when used correctly can also serve as a "Dominate Dog Collar" to send a "Crystal Clear" message to a dog the he has made a "Bad Decision!" 

But ... apparently the use of that tool properly is a bit more difficult than I "initially" understood! (BoxerForum) 

Bottomline ... "proper" use of an E-Collar is easier! 



Jenny720 said:


> Its the all the feral cats, squirrels, ground hogs, that he loves to chase. He get close enough to a feral cat and did get scratched under his eye. So yeah seriously considering the E-collar next step and had checked out lou's site in the past.


 To me the fact that your dog has no problem with "his" cats but still chases "other" cats "complicates" the use of an E-Collar??

But ... E-Collar is not my thing! But for you I think it is the correct "tool" of choice.

I would think you will need help but read Lou's site to better educate yourself! You can contact Lou and would be in a better position to ask questions! Tell him Chip sent you! 

So with that said ....back to "When Pitt's attack!!"


----------



## Jenny720

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm that is interesting??? I have not had the cat problem but to me it sounds like the solution is more control on structured walks and the proper used of a Slip Lead Leash which when used correctly can also serve as a "Dominate Dog Collar" to send a "Crystal Clear" message to a dog the he has made a "Bad Decision!"
> 
> But ... apparently the use of that tool properly is a bit more difficult than I "initially" understood! (BoxerForum)
> 
> Bottomline ... "proper" use of an E-Collar is easier!
> 
> To me the fact that your dog has no problem with "his" cats but still chases "other" cats "complicates" the use of an E-Collar??
> 
> But ... E-Collar is not my thing! But for you I think it is the correct "tool" of choice.
> 
> I would think you will need help but read Lou's site to better educate yourself! You can contact Lou and would be in a better position to ask questions! Tell him Chip sent you!
> 
> So with that said ....back to "When Pitt's attack!!"


Yes its when he is off leash in yard with all the other wildlife when is i have a problem. Yes not familiar with e collar so i will make sure i know enough and ask many questions about it and before i even think about using it.


----------



## newlie

gsdsar said:


> I am not a fan of the breed. That said, some of my favorite dogs on the planet are Pits. So I don't judge by breed alone.
> 
> I am even a less fan of the pit advocates. Saying " it's how they are raised". I think that's bull. It's puts the blame solely on the human.
> 
> We have all seen and heard stories of many breeds, that are in wonderful homes, that are crazy nervebags. Even when raised from puppyhood. Owners who have taken multiple classes, worked very very hard to help their dogs, and genetics won out.
> 
> That's the problem with so many advocacy groups and why I dislike them. They refuse to acknowledge that genetics trumps an awful lot. And there are sooooooo many poorly bred pits out there that no matter how great the owner, the dog is not stable.
> 
> That "it's how they are raised" also is hurting the breed. Why? Because that's the prevailing thought now. It's driving the cruddy breeders and leaving older dogs in the shelter. People want to "raise" their pit, not take on someone else's "mistakes" no matter how nice the dog.


Agreed!


----------



## wolfy dog

Jenny720 said:


> Our animal shelters have almost all pit bull mixes.


That's how they market them to avoid the 100% Pit label. In the local shelters they are disguised as Lab, Boxer and Rhodesian Ridgeback mixes. If they have spots they are Dalmatian mixes, if they are black and white: Border Collie mixes. Erect ears: GSD mixes.

So Llombardo's count is on the conservative side if (s)he has left out the mixes.


----------



## Stonevintage

If you take the press out of it. If you take the statistics out. If you took a group of people that had never heard of PB breeds and sat them down to watch a video of 10 classic - characteristic dog fights (with various different breeds vs Pit Bull types), the attempts to stop the attacks and the resulting damage- all as compared to other dog breeds - I think the consensus would be that these are dangerous dogs, they do not attack in the same way as other breeds, they inflict incredible damage during the attack and it is extremely difficult in fact sometimes necessary to use lethal force to stop an attack. A breed totally unfit for the average pet owner with no business in areas or populations where an attack may be triggered. 

In reading about Berlin's solutions to the PB dilemma (actually their list includes PB and Mastiff types, Rottweiler, Doberman and a couple of others -GSD's excluded) one requirement caught my attention.

Berlin requires a few things to legally own a dog on their list; 1. The owner must pass a field test proving they can control the dangerous dog. 2. They must pay a fee to own the dog (roughly $1,300 per year) 3. Breeding and importing are prohibited (unless licensed - strictly controlled). Violators serve mandatory prison sentences. 

It is the "field test" and background check that intrigues me. Here, drivers and concealed weapons owners need to pass field tests and background checks....... I see this as a possible way to regulate ownership and minimize the ignorant masses from getting these dogs. Penalties would have to be enforced and as strict as for driving and concealed weapons owners. Also - in Berlin, you are not allowed to own a breed on the list if you have been convicted of a violent crime, illegal drug use/sales or animal abuse.

Just something to think about.....


----------



## llombardo

My worse situation that I couldn't get the dog to release was a Rott, nothing was going to make that dog let go until he was ready. Afterwards he acted like nothing at all. I don't need a video, I lived it with a Rott, not a pit bull. They are just as dangerous if in the wrong hands. That dogs jaws were locked.


And the lifting by the hind legs did not work. The person I was with did that and the Roty, my pup and myself all went in the air


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> My worse situation that I couldn't get the dog to release was a Rott, nothing was going to make that dog let go until he was ready. Afterwards he acted like nothing at all. I don't need a video, I lived it with a Rott, not a pit bull. They are just as dangerous if in the wrong hands. That dogs jaws were locked.


No dogs can "lock their jaws" that is one of the oldest wives tales around. It is by genetics & will that they do not let go. 

Anyway, I would not object to required field testing and a background check if I wanted to own a dog on a dangerous breed list if it would help with the problem (and the dang insurance companies!)


----------



## wolfy dog

I don't think this forum needs to show these videos.


----------



## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> I don't think this forum needs to show these videos.


Uh - there are no videos, this was just a hypothetical situation.


----------



## jschrest

I wish the US would adopt laws like that, but I also think it would be wise to include GSD's in that list here. I see just as many untrained out of control GSD's as I do pits. 

As for Rots, they are just as dangerous in fights as pits. The difference is in the breeding. A Rot that snaps isn't as common because they aren't bred to fight these days. They don't have that enate desire to fight. But if they do, they can easily do more damage than most pits. At least in my experience seeing them come through my vets office (the dog attacked by a rot that is).


----------



## Chip18

wolfy dog said:


> I don't think this forum needs to show these videos.


 I "chose" not to view it as I train my dogs ... "make good choices."


----------



## wolfy dog

Stonevintage said:


> Uh - there are no videos, this was just a hypothetical situation.


I meant any video that shows these awful scenes. We all know what happens. Don't need to see it on a forum. I don't open them either.


----------



## Baillif

National network news covered it and showed the video.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> MineAreWorkingline do I owe you an apology??


Chip, I think it works both ways as those who practice to deceive have assumed the titles of Pit Bull advocates and Pit Bull lovers. It leaves people like me to wonder what then is the correct term to reference those who know and love the breed for what it is and present it as such.

If you are among the latter group, I will apologize for how my lack of clarity could have been taken differently.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> You are fixated about a breed of dog doing harm and all other bad things to humanity and the animal kingdom.


I am not fixated on anything. 



> I understand your back story and hatred for pit bulls but you should try to remain open minded and realistic. You are the opposite of some one who says pit bulls are harmless. It is a polarized position. I don't expect to hear any logical sense from that position.


You don't understand my backstory, you don't know my backstory, you don't know me. Please don't pretend that you do. 

You don't expect to hear any logical sense from somebody that is polarized against Pit Bulls but you have no problem hearing logical sense from somebody that is polarized for Pit Bulls? That speaks biased volumes.



> Go back and read llombardos post and see her view on the social issues behind the problems with pit bulls and the people who breed them.


On topic, really? A Pit Bull mauling in New York is the result of Chicago's social issues? I see a pattern emerging with yet another subliminal swipe at Americans being less than. With some people, it is never the breed.



> Do you agree. Is it the dogs are reared in despicable conditions and are a result of serious animal abuse? Or is it all genetic behavior?
> 
> How can something come out of that environment and be normal.
> 
> But I have an example.
> 
> There was a bull breed rescue in Ireland and they had 20 pitbulls. Now the lady running it began to use all the donations to the rescue to finance her life and began to neglect the dogs. The dogs were in sheds with maybe 5-6 dogs in each.
> 
> The rescue was busted and the dogs re -rescued. None of the dogs reverted to cannibalism. They were starving and they did not all fight together or kill each other. They simply sat there and suffered.


A good stable dog subjected to endless hours, days, and years of serious abuse will come out smelling like a rose. Pit Bulls are a primary example. Ask those who rescue who can tell countless tales of abuse yet find the Pit Bulls friendly and gracious to their rescuers. Yes, the bulk is genetic. 

Pit Bulls and other breeds of dogs come out of abusive situations all the time and brush off the abuse. Your very own example supports my premise.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Pit Bulls and other breeds of dogs come out of abusive situations all the time and brush off the abuse. Your very own example supports my premise.


These dogs are probably more predictable than the average youngsters in the shelters who are still in their developmental stages.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I was thinking of this thread when I found this killer Pit Bull..











This Pit Bull is Boom, owned by Carla Ann Thomas, an active Pit Bull advocate. Carla does flyball with boom. This is what another person had to say about Boom who goes to the same club. "In 2011, I attended the same K9 club as Carla Ann Thomas. One day, during flyball practice her pit bull dog, Boom, just completed a flyball run and then attacked another dog. It was instantaneous and unprovoked. Everyone saw everything. Boom's victim had finished the run before Boom. At the end of Boom's run, he spotted another dog. The other dog was looking down sniffing something on the floor, minding its own business. 

Boom had grabbed the other dog's paw and basically crushed it."


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## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> I am not so sure that the opposing sides in this discussion are as far apart as they seem. Both seem to feel that responsible, aware owners are key for this type of dog. The difference as I see it is that one side seem to feel any dog who is treated well and in the hands of people who can manage them will be OK and the other who feels pit bulls are somewhat unique in their heritage and genetics and for that reason, may NOT be OK in the best family in the world. Now, I am not sure how I feel about breed specific legislation because it seems to me to mean different things to different people in different locations. But it does seem important to me not to deny the genetic heritage of this breed and what appears to be the overwhelming difference in statistics between this breed and others in serious/fatal attacks. Certainly, other dogs bite, other dogs kill and other dogs have turned on their owners and owners children, etc. but not to the degree of pit bulls. In my own life, 99% of the time when I hear a story on the radio or read a story in the paper about a serious dog attack, I know the answer before I finish about what breed of dog was involved...and this is not to deny that there are plenty of pit bulls who live and die without showing any aggression at all.
> 
> Now, it would be interesting to have an idea what the population of pit bulls in the US is and how it compares with other breeds because you always have to factor that in. I am just making up figures here, but if there are 500,000 pit bulls in the US and 100,000 shepherds and there are 5 fatalities with pit bulls and 1 by the shepherds, then really, and I am not a statistician, there actually doesn't appear to be much difference. But in the same population, if there are 100 fatalities by pit bull and 5 by German Shepherds, then there is a problem.


Newlie, the ASPCA states there are approximately 86,000,000 dogs owned in the US. They also state that Pit Bulls account for approximately 3,000,000 of total dogs owned with an additional 3,000,000 pit bull types and Pit Bull derivatives, accounting for 3%- 6% of total dogs owned. Stats for dog bite related fatalities shows Pit Bulls and their derivatives responsible for 50% - 75% of the fatalities, more than ALL other breeds combined each and every year for over a decade and increasing every year.


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## Stonevintage

Why aren't these types of dogs used in law enforcement or the military as are GSD's? Detail please


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## newlie

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Newlie, the ASPCA states there are approximately 86,000,000 dogs owned in the US. They also state that Pit Bulls account for approximately 3,000,000 of total dogs owned with an additional 3,000,000 pit bull types and Pit Bull derivatives, accounting for 3%- 6% of total dogs owned. Stats for dog bite related fatalities shows Pit Bulls and their derivatives responsible for 50% - 75% of the fatalities, more than ALL other breeds combined each and every year for over a decade and increasing every year.


Then, I think that settles it for me. Now, the question is what sort of legislation should there be?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Many foreign countries have enacted breed-specific laws to protect citizens from dangerous dogs and to stop the importation of fighting dogs (pit bulls). Countries include, but are not limited to: Argentina, Bavaria, Bermuda, Denmark, Ecuador, France, Guyana, Ireland, Israel, Liechtenstien, Malaysia, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Romania, Lativa, Singapore, Spain, St. Kitts and Nevis, Switzerland, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Turks and Caicos Islands (territory) the UAE, Ukraine, United Kingdom, Venezuela and parts of Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Honduras, China and Japan.


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## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> Then, I think that settles it for me. Now, the question is what sort of legislation should there be?


Newlie, I am convinced that one size does not fit all for BSL. Each and every area has to assess if they have a need, and if so, just what are those needs?


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## wolfy dog

Stonevintage said:


> Why aren't these types of dogs used in law enforcement or the military as are GSD's? Detail please


I think that you can call a GSD off an attack or at least train to.


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## Baillif

Impractical. They tend to train slower, run slower, less endurance, breed less predictably for work, the work ethic is less superior. Just not as practical for a whole host of reasons.


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## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> I think that you can call a GSD off an attack or at least train to.


I just read one comment on a LE site "General lack of biddability and independent, often stubborn temperaments" it goes on but sites the terrier in the breed that makes it unsuitable. 

I would think this would be an issue of genetics rather than there are some good ones and some bad ones.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Here is a map of the US outlining areas that have BSL:

Here's A Map Of Where Your Pit Bull Isn't Welcome


Here is a chart which details breeds included in BSL in some cities:

Analysis of 860 Cities with Breed-Specific Laws
Dog Breed	Named in Ordinances	% of All Ordinances

Pit Bulls 860 100%
Rottweilers 59 7%
Wolf hybrids 30 3%
Presa Canarios 30 3%
Mastiff variations 15 2%
American Bulldogs 14 2%
Doberman Pinschers 14 2%

*Breeds named in 1% or fewer ordinances were excluded from our analysis.

Does anybody really believe that when such ordinances are considered and passed that is based on putting all dog breed names in a hat and seeing which breeds are pulled or could it be that the breed is the problem? 

One thing to note is that one can blame owners all they want, but these very same owners own other breeds of dogs and these other dogs are a non issue.


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## Baillif

I recently visited a club that was heavy into PSA. They had more bully breed type dogs there than anything else. They had good dogs. Had good obedience on those dogs. They were also really strong handlers and did not hesitate to kick doggy ass if the dogs got out of line and guess what? Those dogs don't flinch they don't cower either they take it and work through it. I was watching corrections that would shut a mal or many shepherds down in a heartbeat and it rolls off those dogs shoulders. I will give them this much. None of their dogs had behavior issues. It wasnt like some ring club filled with old ladies with their sheps and mals jumping all over them being idiots. Those dogs respected their handlers.

Put a dog like that in the hands of a pet home or some idiot encouraging a dog to do maladaptive behaviors and youve got a disaster waiting to happen.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Diane Jessup, a certified Police K9 instructor/trainer
on protection sports

This difference in “sheepdog versus bulldog” mentality in a trainer is best understood when training the “out!” or release command. It is common practice for those training shepherds and sheepdog types to use force such as hard leash corrections or electric shock to get the dog to release the sleeve.

Sadly, I had one young man come to me because a club trainer was slugging his little Am Staff female in the nose, till she bled, trying to get her to release the sleeve.

She would not! And of course she would not! She was a good little bulldog, hanging on for dear life, just as her bull and bear baiting ancestors of old did.

She was a super little gripping dog, who took the pain she experienced as just “part of the job” once her owner set her upon the sleeve. And this is the response from well bred pit bulldogs—to ignore pain while gripping. It is, after all, what they are bred for! Give me a bulldog like her, rather than one which will allow itself to be yanked off the sleeve due to pain.


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## Stonevintage

Bailiff - from your point of view - with your training background - do you see a workable solution?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> I recently visited a club that was heavy into PSA. They had more bully breed type dogs there than anything else. They had good dogs. Had good obedience on those dogs. They were also really strong handlers and did not hesitate to kick doggy ass if the dogs got out of line and guess what? Those dogs don't flinch they don't cower either they take it and work through it. I was watching corrections that *would shut a mal or many shepherds down* in a heartbeat and it rolls off those dogs shoulders. I will give them this much. None of their dogs had behavior issues. It wasnt like some ring club filled with old ladies with their sheps and mals jumping all over them being idiots. Those dogs respected their handlers.
> 
> Put a dog like that in the hands of a pet home or some idiot encouraging a dog to do maladaptive behaviors and youve got a disaster waiting to happen.


Off topic, but are you saying the chance of a German Shepherd taking a very hard correction without shutting down is higher than that of a Mal?


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## Baillif

Theyre bad news for a lot of reasons. The dangerous ones are insensitive and not particularly intelligent on average and it is easy for them to confuse punishment with negative reinforcement for something else so if you don't know exactly what you're doing its possible to make a behavior you're trying to fix a million times worse.


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Off topic, but are you saying the chance of a German Shepherd taking a very hard correction without shutting down is higher than that of a Mal?


There is a marked tendency to mals being more sensitive to correction than GSD yes. Largely due germans beating the **** out of them in old school IPO training for centuries. Hardened many of the working line gsds


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## MineAreWorkingline

ASPCA-Guide to handling Pitbulls in Shelters

ASPCA Guide to Handling Pit Bulls in Shelter Environments

“The Care of Pit Bulls in the Shelter Environment,” by Leslie D. Appel, DVM
Director of Shelter Veterinary Outreach ASPCA


—There are cases of experienced handlers who had developed good relationships with the dogs over a period of months still being attacked without warning or obvious provocation.

—Pit bulls ignore signs of submission from other dogs and give no warning prior to attack. 

—Today’s pit bulls have various names including: Staffordshire Terrier (AKC 1935) and American Staffordshire Terrier (AKC 1972, Am Staff). There goes the claim that Staffordshire terrier is not a pit bull.

—These dogs can be aggressive towards humans and more likely to cause fatal attacks to people than other fighting type dogs.

—Pit bulls will climb fences, chew up stainless steel food and water bowls, destroy copper tubing of automatic water systems and conventional cages, attack other animals through chain link fences.

—Pit bulls can break through conventional cage doors and destroy typical epoxy paint on the floors and walls.

—Pit bulls require special housing considerations and isolation from other animals if dog aggressive or have a high prey drive.

—Install a panic button in rooms housing pit bulls along with other restraint equipment in any room housing pit bulls.

The ASPCA is an animal welfare agency that strongly opposes breed-specific laws (AKA pit bull laws), yet in their own documentation (“The Care of Pit Bulls in the Shelter Environment,”) they spell out the unique dangers of pit bulls. To “protect” shelter workers from dangerous pit bulls, they included the following in their guidelines: INSTALL A PANIC BUTTON!!!

Does the ASPCA advise potential Pit Bull adopters of these very same Pit Bulls to install panic buttons in their homes?

Does the ASPCA contact local authorities and advise them to install panic buttons throughout family communities once they adopt these very same Pit Bulls to families in these communities?


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## Baillif

Or you can keep a medium sized shovel or bat in every room of your house just in case


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## Pawsed

I didn't watch the video, but I'm well aware of what these dogs are and what damage they can do. Our neighbor, when we lived in another state, had Pit Bulls. When we first moved in, he came to tell us that if we ever saw one of his dogs on our farm to shoot it and kill it. He said if they ever got hold of one of our horses, they would ruin the animal. So he felt it was better to kill the dog than have it destroy the horse.

He was very responsible with his dogs and kept them well in hand, and I appreciated that he knew exactly what he was dealing with. These dogs are incredibly strong, especially considering their size. He kept them on cow chains, since that was the only thing that would hold them. He gave them the normal sized 40 pound concrete blocks for them to play with. They easily carried them around.

He told us the only way to get them to turn loose once they bite is to either choke them into unconsciousness or shove a tire iron between their jaws and pry them apart. Spraying them with water or hitting them with a 2X4, or as Bailiff said, using an e-collar would do nothing, unless you hit them hard enough to knock them out. Pain means nothing to them.

He once had 2 Pit puppies that were cute as they could be. He also had a litter of 15 Catahoula pups that were 2 weeks younger. When the Pits were 8 weeks old, he left them in a pen with the Catahoula puppies. When he got home from work, all the Catahoulas were dead, killed by the Pits. He thought that they had probably started playing, and those sharp little puppy teeth set off one or both of the Pit pups and that was that. No way did he train 8 week old puppies to kill. 

I saw those same 2 pups completely lose it, glazed over and totally out of control, just from their laying eyes on his full grown sow. When those pups were 3 months old, they killed that sow, running her to death.

As to their strength, I was driving down the road we lived on, pulling 2 large, as in 1200 pound horses, in the trailer. He had one female that he trusted to leave loose in his yard at times. She darted into the road and I ran over her, as in I felt the tires of the truck bump over her, and glanced back to see one side of the horse trailer tires rise over her, too. I stopped as soon as I could and climbed out trying to prepare myself to tell him that I just killed his dog, only to see the dog run across his yard! He came out to see what had happened and examined the dog.

She was indeed injured. She had a small scrape on her nose. Otherwise, she was fine and lived for many more years without issue. I still can't believe that, and wouldn't if anyone told me it happened, so I understand if you doubt it voracity. But, I swear to you, it's true.

There may be nice Pits, but seeing what I did, I could never trust one. I feel they are much more of a responsibility than most people are willing or able to accept, or even have the knowledge to do so.


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## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> No dogs can "lock their jaws" that is one of the oldest wives tales around. It is by genetics & will that they do not let go.
> 
> Anyway, I would not object to required field testing and a background check if I wanted to own a dog on a dangerous breed list if it would help with the problem (and the dang insurance companies!)



I'm not going to argue with you whether a dogs jaws dogs lock or not. I was on the ground face to face holding a 120 pound Rotts jaws open so he couldn't crush my pups head or take an eye out. I'm not a small person and it took everything I had in me to hold those jaws right where they were and they were as locked as could be. I couldn't pry them open or let go or my dog was dead. My body was sore for days afterwards. That dog wanted my pup dead.

This is one of the pictures of my pup before he went to the Emergency Vet. The bleeding wouldn't stop and there were a couple puncture wounds from the Rott grabbing him and one set that was pretty deep where he got ahold of him and wouldn't let go. My dogs head was in his whole mouth.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Deflection: to turn the conversation in another direction, as in breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline

For those who did not have opportunity to read this post on another thread:

From the website of Tia Torres / Pit Bulls and Paroles 

The following is basic breed information for anyone who is interested in acquiring a Pit Bull. And for those who already have one or more and would like to learn more about the breed, or simply for anyone who would like to understand these great dogs…..read on.

This page discusses the most notable traits of Pit Bull type dogs, including the potential for dog aggression. You will learn here that while Pit Bulls make great family companions while in the right hands and living situation, they require intelligent, responsible and dedicated ownership. Unfortunately too many people obtain these dogs for the wrong reasons or have little understanding on the inherent traits this breed possesses. It is unfortunate that one of the original purposes of the APBT was (and still is for many) dog-to-dog combat, but it’s a fact that can’t be denied or ignored. It’s very important that every potential Pit Bull owner, understands the selective breeding that took place to make these dogs of today and the inherited characteristics that are potentially within this wonderful breed.

Stahlkuppe (1995) writes: “The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) or the Am Staff, is certainly not the right pet for everyone. Being a powerful dog, it will require sufficient and adequate control. Some prospective elderly owners or children, will not be able to supply that control. A first time dog owner, in the minds of many experienced dog breeders, should not buy an APBT or an Am Staff. An insecure person who wants only an aggressive dog to bolster some personal human inadequacy should never become an owner of one of these dogs.”

Humans have created very specialized dogs through emphasizing desired traits and eliminating unwanted ones. It is no different with the Pit Bull breed. The American Pit Bull Terrier has been “selectively” bred for hundreds of years to fight other dogs. This is the sad “work” these dogs were created for. In the same way that Labradors were bred to retrieve birds, APBT’s were bred to face other dogs in mortal combat. Even in dogs that are not recently bred from fighting lines, the urge to rumble can arise at any time. Not to strongly emphasize this fact is to be negligent. We would be equally negligent if we were placing Beagles and failed to educate the adopter about why the specific traits that scent oriented dogs, hunting dogs, bred to work in packs, present certain challenges to those who wish to obedience train their hound.

There are precautions to take when owning a Pit Bull, especially in a multiple-dog environment. Unfortunately these precautions are often viewed as an acceptance for the sport of dog fighting when nothing could be further from the truth. 

Take note that a fight can strike suddenly and for no apparent reason. Warning signs can be very subtle with Pit Bulls and even completely absent in certain cases. Two dogs may be best friends for years, sleep together, cuddle, play and even eat from the same bowl. Then one day something triggers one of them and BOOM! 

It is not necessarily a hate of other dogs that will cause Pit Bulls to fight, but rather an “urge” to do so that has been bred into the breed for many generations. Pit Bulls may fight over hierarchic status, but external stimulus or excitement can also trigger a fight. Remember that any canine can fight, but Pit Bulls were bred specifically for it and will therefore do it with more drive and intensity than most other breeds.

Pit Bull owners must also be aware of the remarkable fighting abilities of this breed and always keep in mind that they have the potential to inflict serious injuries to other animals.

A Word From Villalobos Rescue Center

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as we most definitely have ours. All we ask of you, is to keep an open mind when learning about this breed and understand from beginning to end, what these dogs have endured throughout the years. Before acquiring one of these mighty dogs, please do as much research as possible and make your decision wisely. Serious Pit Bull owners would rather the “bleeding hearts” not take one of these dogs on merely for the fact that they might find that they’ve “bitten off more than they can chew”. As a rescue facility for this breed, that is the most common plea for help we get. Though we so much appreciate any and all assistance, at the same time, ask for help from those who know: “The Real Pit Bull” before your heart is too involved.


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## MineAreWorkingline

BADRAP is a diverse and growing group of owners, rescuers, and supporters of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

BAD RAP
May 20, 2013 
It's Dog Bite Prevention Week. Did you know that there was never such thing as a 'Nanny's Dog'? This term was a recent invention created to describe the myriad of vintage photos of children enjoying their family pit bulls. While the intention behind the term was innocent, using it may mislead parents into being careless with their children around their family dog - A recipe for dog bites!


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## Stonevintage

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Deflection: to turn the conversation in another direction, as in breed.


 Woof!


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## MineAreWorkingline

DIANE JESSUP, Washington pit bull owner and expert

"It's not sensible to get an animal bred for bringing a 2,000-pound bull to its knees and say I'm going to treat this like a soft-mouth Labrador," says Jessup, the former animal-control officer. She blames novice owners, as much as actual criminals, for bringing the breed into disrepute. "It's a capable animal, and it's got to be treated as such."


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## MineAreWorkingline

GARRETT RUSSO, dog trainer

I estimate Medical & Veterinary bills related to injuries caused by pit bulls in the Tompkins Square dog run in 2011, $140,000.00. Estimated Medical (human) & Veterinary (canine) bills from all other breeds and mixed breeds combined during the same period, $5,000.00. (Estimate gathered from reports to by owners to the dog park association.)


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## MineAreWorkingline

CESAR MILAN, celebrity dog trainer

"Yeah, but this is a different breed...the power that comes behind bull dog, pit bull, presa canario, the fighting breed - They have an extra boost, they can go into a zone, they don't feel the pain anymore. He is using the bulldog in him, which is way too powerful, so we have to 'make him dog' (I guess as in a "regular" dog) so we can actually create the limits.

So if you are trying to create submission in a fighting breed, it's not going to happen. They would rather die than surrender.". If you add pain, it only infuriates them..to them pain is that adrenaline rush, they are looking forward to that, they are addicted to it...

That's why they are such great fighters." Cesar goes on to say..."Especially with fighting breeds, you're going to have these explosions over and over because there's no limits in their brain."


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## MineAreWorkingline

STANLEY COREN, PhD

"A dog's breed tells us a lot about that dog's genetic heritage and makeup. Genetics is a strong determinant of personality. In the absence of any other information, we can make a reasonable prediction about how the dog will behave based upon its breed." 

"When we crossbreed, we lose some of that predictability, since which genes will be passed on by each parent and how they will combine is a matter of chance. Fortunately, there is some data to suggest that we can still make predispositions without knowing much about its parentage.


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## Stonevintage

All I want to do is walk my dog in the neighborhood without worrying about running in to one of these off leash. It doesn't look like I will be able to do that. Glad I have a large fenced yard for her. When I got my GSD a year ago, there were none in the neighborhood. Now there are 7 within a 1 block radius. 

It is apparent from posts here that many believe some will attack and some will not. I'm just not willing to risk my dog's life on their opinion. I don't believe there are "good" ones or "bad" ones when it comes to attacking another dog. They just are what they are and IMO - every one loose and out of control has the potential.


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## llombardo

No one is disputing that these dogs are powerful and need to be in the right hands. The two that came at me and my dogs took their owner down. They were on a leash and she could not control them. There is no doubt in my mind that would have ended terribly if I didn't get to the gate before them. I never ran so fast in my life. She got up and got to them ever so slowly(she broke her leg). 

These are not the only dogs that you have to watch out for. You need to have a plan. No dogs should be running the streets, if they are, they are probably in the wrong hands.


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## Chip18

wolfy dog said:


> I meant any video that shows these awful scenes. We all know what happens. Don't need to see it on a forum. I don't open them either.


 Nor did I but I don't want that choice away from others ... uh oh!


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> Impractical. They tend to train slower, run slower, less endurance, breed less predictably for work, the work ethic is less superior. Just not as practical for a whole host of reasons.


 I saw diffrent things in the "pet world." I would always say my Gunther (American Band Dawg) moved like a Dump Truck as opposed to my Boxer Struddell who was poetry in motion!

Jack Rabbits could cut right in front of Gunther, without fear, if they were alreadat speed, he had no chance of getting close! But if they did that with my Boxer ...,it was, go time, game on! 

Her I had to train to chase Jack Rabbits towards the mountains (North) and not the Hwy (south) and Gunther who was on the outings with her ...uh no need! 

Speed at distance not their thing!


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## Baillif

We are talking generalities here of course. There are always crap specimens and exceptional specimens from every breed. The fastest bassett hound is probably faster than the slowest malinois...although I'm willing to bet that malinois is probably missing a few legs.


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## valb

Mineareworkingline, thank you so much, especially for the Tia Torres bit... she has gone up in my estimation with those words!


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Chip, I think it works both ways as those who practice to deceive have assumed the titles of Pit Bull advocates and Pit Bull lovers. It leaves people like me to wonder what then is the correct term to reference those who know and love the breed for what it is and present it as such.
> 
> If you are among the latter group, I will apologize for how my lack of clarity could have been taken differently.


 Nope glad the thread hasn't been closed! Apparently I was the only one that got confused! When I cite sources I usually explain what I think and provide a link.

But the copy and paste thing?? Blowback, you seemed "sane" at first and then seemed to become uh kinda nutty??? 

The copy and past bit I started to think that was you!??? :blush:

Had you done this, with the* " ...no one should own dangerous dogs" * section it would have been clearer that was not you! To me anyway!:blush:

So that being said I think what you are saying is that ...JQP has no idea of the "potential" damage, that these dogs can do without "proper structure??"

Yes, they are "not" Labs or Goldens," but they have some of those attributes too. The sad part is that the two groups that best understand theses dog's "potential" are the "Gang Bangers" "Thugs" and "Red Necks" and "Responsible Dog owners!" 

The vast majority of Pitt (I gotta go with that sp ... ) and where the whole out of "nowhere thing happens" ...is from JQC (John Q Clueless ???). As I see it anyway. If someone owns a "dangerous dog ...it should be their problem, not someone else's!" 

So yes a "hard sell" on the "Lab" like part is being made, to kinda sorta overlook the parts of the "Breed???" that can be ... "problematic!" Which I think is your point???

I was a Bully guy long before I was a GSD guy and these or any "combination thereof" are my "Dawgs" as it were. 

Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds) 

That being said* "we're good"* ...carry on all


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> For those who did not have opportunity to read this post on another thread:
> 
> From the website of Tia Torres / Pit Bulls and Paroles ....


 Of course I have no objections to any of that! And I can also say that as a member of JQP that is a regular viewer of her TV show. I have "not" seen that level of seriousness, being delivered to weekly viewer's???

I've seen dogs being adopted out to folks that struck me as being pretty clueless?? Hope I've been wrong???


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> Or you can keep a medium sized shovel or bat in every room of your house just in case


You sir are one of my favorites!! They know of you on BoxerForum also!

Of course, I won't be recommending that approach with our current bad boy Boxer! Someone their has there hands full! All hands on deck as it were!

"Bark Buster's" ...was a no go for them! Yeah .....


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## Stonevintage

There was a lot of text in the last 15 inches of screen I scrolled thru - but, for the life of me - I have now idea what the point is......


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Of course I have no objections to any of that! And I can also say that as a member of JQP that is a regular viewer of her TV show. I have "not" seen that level of seriousness, being delivered to weekly viewer's???
> 
> I've seen dogs being adopted out to folks that struck me as being pretty clueless?? Hope I've been wrong???


Chip, I think we are on the same page and it is all good.

I get so angry that Tia, Cesar, Jane, and others (think ASPCA) know the real Pit Bull, and deliberately deceive. This is not about BSL, this is about lives, human and animal. Who do they think they are putting out all that propaganda they know is blatantly false to save the lives of Pit Bulls at the cost of innocent human and pet victims?


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## MineAreWorkingline

For those of you interested in some history of the Pit Bull in this country, written by some old time dogmen: Vintage American Pitbull Terrier ? vintageapbt: The following story has some...


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> All I want to do is walk my dog in the neighborhood without worrying about running in to one of these off leash. It doesn't look like I will be able to do that. Glad I have a large fenced yard for her. When I got my GSD a year ago, there were none in the neighborhood. Now there are 7 within a 1 block radius.


 That sucks and is "scary" no one should have to live in fear of loose dogs! 



Stonevintage said:


> It is apparent from posts here that many believe some will attack and some will not. I'm just not willing to risk my dog's life on their opinion. I don't believe there are "good" ones or "bad" ones when it comes to attacking another dog. They just are what they are and IMO - every one loose and out of control has the potential


 Two out of three of my loose dog encounters were Pitt's and a clueless owner was behind each encounter! None touched my dog but not for lack of effort.

First one slammed through the front screen dog and came after my pup! Uh ever heard of threshold training moron???

Second one came off his property right by his clueless owner?? How about "freaking STAY or NO!!" Cretin! 

Third encounter, the two dog encounter non-Pitt, again those dogs blew through the front door and came charging towards us!!! See number one above for comment!

Behind each of my encounters you'll find the brain dead and the stupid!!

And you can't fix stupid!! Hence dog's on the loose! And yes sadly that includes numerous example of the worst of the lot for inflicting potentially lethal damage to another dog or person ... no training required!!


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> For those of you interested in some history of the Pit Bull in this country, written by some old time dogmen: Vintage American Pitbull Terrier ? vintageapbt: The following story has some...


 Thank you ...now that "my" confusion" is over ....I was going to ask!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> All I want to do is walk my dog in the neighborhood without worrying about running in to one of these off leash. It doesn't look like I will be able to do that. Glad I have a large fenced yard for her. When I got my GSD a year ago, there were none in the neighborhood. Now there are 7 within a 1 block radius.
> 
> It is apparent from posts here that many believe some will attack and some will not. I'm just not willing to risk my dog's life on their opinion. I don't believe there are "good" ones or "bad" ones when it comes to attacking another dog. They just are what they are and IMO - every one loose and out of control has the potential.


I agree, three of my five dogs have never walked through my neighborhood and never will. One of the five was attacked be a Pit Bull on her first and last walk in the neighborhood at the age of five months.



valb said:


> Mineareworkingline, thank you so much, especially for the Tia Torres bit... she has gone up in my estimation with those words!


You are welcome. If you are interested in more information feel free to PM me.



Stonevintage said:


> There was a lot of text in the last 15 inches of screen I scrolled thru - but, for the life of me - I have now idea what the point is......


If they were my posts, the point was EDUCATION. I never felt the urge to stick my hand in a pot of boiling oil because I had been warned of the dangers. I extend the same courtesy to others.


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## Chip18

Pawsed said:


> When we first moved in, he came to tell us that if we ever saw one of his dogs on our farm to shoot it and kill it. He said if they ever got hold of one of our horses, they would ruin the animal. So he felt it was better to kill the dog than have it destroy the horse.





Pawsed said:


> He was very responsible with his dogs and kept them well in hand, and I appreciated that he knew exactly what he was dealing with.





Pawsed said:


> These dogs are incredibly strong, especially considering their size. He kept them on cow chains, since that was the only thing that would hold them. He gave them the normal sized 40 pound concrete blocks for them to play with. They easily carried them around.





Pawsed said:


> He told us the only way to get them to turn loose once they bite is to either choke them into unconsciousness or shove a tire iron between their jaws and pry them apart. Spraying them with water or hitting them with a 2X4, or as Bailiff said, using an e-collar would do nothing, unless you hit them hard enough to knock them out. Pain means nothing to them.
> 
> He once had 2 Pit puppies that were cute as they could be. He also had a litter of 15 Catahoula pups that were 2 weeks younger. When the Pits were 8 weeks old, he left them in a pen with the Catahoula puppies. When he got home from work, all the Catahoulas were dead, killed by the Pits. He thought that they had probably started playing, and those sharp little puppy teeth set off one or both of the Pit pups and that was that. No way did he train 8 week old puppies to kill.





Pawsed said:


> I saw those same 2 pups completely lose it, glazed over and totally out of control, just from their laying eyes on his full grown sow. When those pups were 3 months old, they killed that sow, running her to death.





Pawsed said:


> As to their strength, I was driving down the road we lived on, pulling 2 large, as in 1200 pound horses, in the trailer. He had one female that he trusted to leave loose in his yard at times. She darted into the road and I ran over her, as in I felt the tires of the truck bump over her, and glanced back to see one side of the horse trailer tires rise over her, too. I stopped as soon as I could and climbed out trying to prepare myself to tell him that I just killed his dog, only to see the dog run across his yard! He came out to see what had happened and examined the dog.


 Uh wow talk about a "target rich environment ... 

Yes, these are all the signs of a "responsible owner?"  


I'll just let it go at that ... this is one of the few times, I'm glad I don't "roll" like, Lou!


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> ASPCA-Guide to handling Pitbulls in Shelters
> 
> 
> —Today’s pit bulls have various names including: Staffordshire Terrier (AKC 1935) and American Staffordshire Terrier (AKC 1972, Am Staff). There goes the claim that Staffordshire terrier is not a pit bull.


 LOL, I consider that an "insider's game!" I got no Dog in that fight!


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## Stonevintage

No MAWL... not your stuff. I didn't realize your situation. My last GSD was in his yard for 13 years. Same reason- I called LE for loose pit bulls threatening at my fence 5 times. I worked with the young owners. Theirs kept breaking out thru their bathroom window - shattering the glass to get at my pup. Police tried to tell them that normal collars won't fit right because of their structure.... bla bla bla. One loose pit - threatening my dog thru the fence - I had had enough - I put my dog in the house and went out there with a leash and collar and a box of cereal to shake. I got the pit - clipped him to the inside of my fence, locked the front gate and called LE. The owners showed up before the police and demanded their dog. I said no - not until the police get here. The cussed me, threatened me etc - I stood my ground and held my mug. Police gave them a citation and education......

I'm not going to let it happen again. My dog has as much right to walk in the neighborhood on leash as any other. I found a site tonight - strange stuff but on one of those "end of the world survivor sites" and it mentioned a stun baton that the pro bicyclists swear by with pits. It gives you enough time to first stun and then finish the job before they recover - should you have no other alternative.... I will be looking further in to this


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> No MAWL... not your stuff. I didn't realize your situation. My last GSD was in his yard for 13 years. Same reason- I called LE for loose pit bulls threatening at my fence 5 times. I worked with the young owners. Theirs kept breaking out thru their bathroom window - shattering the glass to get at my pup. Police tried to tell them that normal collars won't fit right because of their structure.... bla bla bla. One loose pit - threatening my dog thru the fence - I had had enough - I put my dog in the house and went out there with a leash and collar and a box of cereal to shake. I got the pit - clipped him to the inside of my fence, locked the front gate and called LE. The owners showed up before the police and demanded their dog. I said no - not until the police get here. The cussed me, threatened me etc - I stood my ground and held my mug. Police gave them a citation and education......
> 
> I'm not going to let it happen again. My dog has as much right to walk in the neighborhood on leash as any other. I found a site tonight - strange stuff but on one of those "end of the world survivor sites" and it mentioned a stun baton that the pro bicyclists swear by with pits. It gives you enough time to first stun and then finish the job before they recover - should you have no other alternative.... I will be looking further in to this


Yep, how many people live in your neighborhood, mine, and others like us? How many people are actually being held hostage in their homes by Pit Bull owners? It is like being under house arrest forever, no parole, no legal recourse.

I really really really don't like to advise on how to defend yourself from a Pit Bull. Lots of reasons for that. The one I will touch on is that tasers have repeatedly failed on Pit Bulls. On the other hand, I heard the reason they fail is that the police are using the tasers on Pit Bulls the same they would on humans and therein lies the problem. I don't know.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Chip, I think we are on the same page and it is all good.


 Yes it would seem so! I thank my "friends!" They taught me well! 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I get so angry that Tia, Cesar, Jane, and others (think ASPCA) know the real Pit Bull, and deliberately deceive.


 The closest I can come to an explanation for Cesar and Tia is that, honestly they just don't know how *"Freaking, Stupid, Clueless and Irresponsible"* some people are capable of being! They know "too" much about the breed and can't relate to *"FSCI"* people?? Although I guess that would explain Cesar's (inability to relate) dog rehab, owner rehab work and off to the Dog Park you go bit??? Yeah the people he worked with have a well behaved Pitt, but what happens when JQP, rolls in with his untrained cur and there is a "situation??" 

How about telling people to just say "NO" to Dog Parks!! He can't rehab them all!! But week after week at the end of the show, off to the Dog Park they go! No bad dogs to be found there?? 


And the ASPCA??? Yes ... I saw "examples" of their work at a BoxerRescue event! The absolutely worst behaved dogs I ever saw were all under their "care!" They had one blind dog in a xpen with another badly behaved dog that would not stay out of the blind dogs face!!?? You would hear, some tool constantly shouting "Alfie" No!! As Alfie consistently hounded and badgered the blind dog! And this was next to the pen that contained a "Pointer of some sort, that constantly leap seven or eight feet in the air to get out of confinement! Yes, the Pen was that high?? I guess that was because well ... the dog was a jumper???

Those were the highlights! The badly behaved dogs they had there were epic! All our Boxers sat calmly beside us or in pens and quietly observed the antics??

Now that is "ironic ???" 

I guess "Click Treat and Praise" on full display! By the ASPCA. Guess I'm saying any ASPCA representation of the "Pitt" would indeed be coming from a pretty clueless lot!


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## jschrest

This wonderful tidbit showed up on my news feed this morning. It's things like this that fool the general public into thinking these are just regular old family pets. It mystifies me why anyone would want to deceive and give half truths to promote a breed, any breed.


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## Jenny720

jschrest said:


> This wonderful tidbit showed up on my news feed this morning. It's things like this that fool the general public into thinking these are just regular old family pets. It mystifies me why anyone would want to deceive and give half truths to promote a breed, any breed.


Wow. To me I dont see this as these organizations being clueless, but yes exactly to fool the general public. They are over run with pit bulls. More then a million pit bulls are euthanized each year in america. I see no reason not to have a spay/ neuter law and a background check for drugs/ crime , capabilty and a psychological exam done as a requirement for owning such a dog.


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## Dainerra

see I get worried when I hear about banning of Pit Bulls when I am on a GSD group and see comments like this

"Who else has a GSD who attacks the tv before an animal is even seen because they know the music associated with the commercial?"

"My husband and i have a female 11 month old german Shepherd. She loves my husband and is very protective of him since he is in a wheelchair. She will not let anyone come near my husband with out permission and even then sometimes she will not let you near him. We have a baby on the way does anyone have any recommendations on how we can get our german shepherd to be less protective"

" I too have a "protective" shepherd. He doesn't let anyone set beside, raise your voice to me even loud laughter he growls and hair stands up, he walks 1 step in front of me...protective is the right word for my boy."

clueless owners are going to be the downfall of all of us.

I lost the bookmark somewhere along the way. But there was a study that broke down dog attacks not by breed but by the circumstances involved.

Almost all involved unsupervised children.
Most happened in the home or home of a family member.
Most were intact animals, many times a female in heat and an intact male.
Most were in lower socio-economic areas.
The majority involved dogs that were on a chain.

You get the picture. And, right now, the dog of choice in most of those situations is the pit bull. They are cheap to purchase, easy to find, bred indiscriminately by clueless people and, as others have said, have a strong PR section pushing the "nanny dog" image.
Combine that image with clueless owners, many of whom seem to think that dogs pop out of the womb fully trained, and you're going to have issues.

Better than BSL, I prefer responsible dog ownership and enforcement of leash laws.

Simply enforcing and having penalties for having your dogs not under your control would stop a lot of problems before they start. In almost every attack, you see a history of buildup in behavior that all but a blind man could follow. The dog is seen roaming the area. The dog may get in a few fights with other dogs or bother livestock. Dog starts growling at people. 
If someone had stepped in and fined the owners at step 1 and enforced a penalty that increased with each incident, then you are more likely to never reach step 2 let alone escalate to an incident where humans are injured.

I have a neighbor whose dog roams free ever single day. At first it was a cute sweet puppy. Then it was an adolescent, throwing his weight around and figuring out his place in the world. Now he thinks he owns half the neighborhood. He goes where he pleases. Owner has no control and I don't think even wants to have control. 
The dog has never been on a leash in his life. Has never been confined in his life. He's an accident waiting to happen. And, no he's not a bit. He's a hound mix of some type. One of these days he's going to bite someone and it's likely to be serious. He charges and snaps at people leaving their homes or getting out of their cars. He has killed several cats and small pets more small livestock (chickens and rabbits) than I can count.
He avoids my yard now. Unfortunately, my husband missed or he wouldn't be anyone's problem anymore. He's actually growled and attempted to bite my neighbor trying to get in her front door when she was carrying in a pizza. He wanted it and was determined to take it. Thankfully she was able to slam the door on his head hard enough that he decided to back off.


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## jschrest

Dianerra, I understand what you are saying fully. I have a nightmare of a GSD. Fear aggressive, dog and human aggressive, insane prey drive, massively territorial. If she were to get loose, it probably wouldn't end well. In this case, she could easily become a poster child for a GSD ban outcry. But, she is managed. I have so many safety precautions in place it's highly unlikely it would be an issue. It's people who know they have a dangerous dog on their hands and do nothing about it that causes problems. Or people who don't recognize they have a dangerous dog and stupidly take it out to dog parks or people parks that are the issue. And of course the idiots that think it's cool to have an attack dog. Sigh

Promoting a hair trigger breed as a safe family pet, and pointing fingers at the media for portraying anything differently, is what leads to the clueless people having these dogs on less than ideal homes. I think promoting the dogs honestly is the way it should be handled. You rarely see Mal owners talking about what great family pets their breed would be. You see them warning the general public that it's not a breed for a typical pet family lifestyle. Same with the GSD community (for the most part). Sure, you still have clueless people out there that purchase, rescue, adopt these breeds and don't know how to handle them, but not nearly in the number of pit cases. 

It's poor promotion of the breed that causes issues, not "the person on the other end of the leash." Promote fairly. Great breed, has some issues, this is what to watch for and this is the type of handling they need.


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## llombardo

The next dogs that will be looked at will be Rotts and GSDs. The scary part is that pit bulls are bred to be what they are and people act surprised at what they are capable of, GSDs aren't bred for this but are in the top 3(I believe number 2) as far as bites. Does anyone else see the problem with this? I'm not going to knock the pit bull breed because once any kind of breed ban goes through it will be much easier for the next breed to get banned and that is Gsd's. I'm not giving up my right to own a GSD.


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## Dainerra

sadly, there are a lot of breeders who only care about the sell. There are already mals being sold to pet homes that, in my opinion, shouldn't be trusted with a gold fish. 
Goodness knows that with the current trend for "working line" gsds there are dogs out there going to homes that they shouldn't be in. 
And of course being bred by people who have no idea.

Yes, the positive training, save the dogs, "fur baby" issue that is hurting pit bulls. It's also hurting our breed and others.

I remember growing up, all the things you hear about pit bulls now were said about dobermans. They had locking jaws. They could turn on anyone. Their brains would grow too big for their skull and they'd go insane.

Thankfully there were responsible owners and breeders out there who stayed strong. Before them, it was the GSD. I have some elderly relatives who are terrified of GSDs because they "will kill you in your sleep. That's the way they are bred"

Unfortunately, too many people have taken the true fact that most situations ARE because of irresponsible owners - lack of training, lack of management, lack of common sense - and distorted it to "dogs can do no wrong and it's all the human"

dogs are animals. they don't make decisions the way we do. they don't process the environment in the way we do. and treating them as humans does a disservice to the dog and the human. 

Yes, a well-bred pit (or bully breed if you prefer) can be an excellent pet. When well-bred they have no human aggression but are dog aggressive and often small animal aggressive. So are many husky and sled dog breeds. 
When humans overlook what traits a breed is known for, there are going to be issues. And the "save every dog" movement is hurting all dogs. Dogs aren't viewed as individuals or with issues. 

Yes, the breed was bred for dog-dog aggression and for a terrier "never surrender" personality. However so are other breeds. Akitas are severely dog aggressive in most cases as well as human aggressive to strangers unless carefully trained and managed. Why don't we hear more about them? Because there aren't that many akitas out there. 
However, many of the "pit bulls" out there have akita, mastiff and other breeds mixed in. Breeds that are known to be human aggressive as a breed trait. 

In the end, in most cases it DOES come back to the human. Clueless, lack of effort, plain stupidity or whatever the cause in most cases the human could have prevented the incident.
Shoot, I have a child living next door whose parents told her that the correct response to a dog that scares her is to run screaming and to wave her arms to attract attention. Personally, I wonder if they don't like the child and are trying to get her killed.


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## Stonevintage

I think this one they just decided to hold back on to see if anything productive would come out of it. Thank you Mods. I think all will agree that this is a worthy discussion. Initial anger, resignation, honesty, how the situation affects the GSD and suggestions for resolution. It's all here. 

I've learned quite a bit from these posts, all sides which is something I never took the time to consider before. It seems that every responsible dog owner wants resolution. Wouldn't it be grand if every dog breed association who represents those (listed as"dangerous" dogs) could unite to form a solid base of information on proper handling and care of each breed? Essentially disabling breed specific politicians and shelters from spreading inadequate or outright false information.

Also calling for law enforcement to be vigilant and not lax with leash laws, proper yard confinement and animal abuse cases. LE needs our eyes and our cameras to bring these situations to their attention. If we do that, we have every right to know that they have followed up on the problem and done their job. If trainers and behaviorists knowledgeable with specific breeds could provide more accurate tests unique to the breed for shelter/adoption evaluations. 

All in the name of taking some ownership to police ourselves, represent our breed of choice well and educate others.


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## Baillif

There are pitbull bans all over the place and they havent gone after GSD yet.


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## Stonevintage

Rott is #2 statistic wise and there's quite a gap between 1 & 2 - then, there's quite a large gap (much lower incidence of problems) before the GSD. In fact, the gap in incidents is so large - you can total all the incidents of all other breeds (including GSD) - combine them together and the total would not meet #1 & #2 problem numbers (per capita).


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## llombardo

Baillif said:


> There are pitbull bans all over the place and they havent gone after GSD yet.


Because they aren't done with the Pit Bulls yet. We are good as long as they keep not enforcing laws.


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## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> Rott is #2 statistic wise and there's quite a gap between 1 & 2 - then, there's quite a large gap (much lower incidence of problems) before the GSD. In fact, the gap in incidents is so large - you can total all the incidents of all other breeds (including GSD) - combine them together and the total would not meet #1 & #2 problem numbers (per capita).


Yes I went and looked, I misread. GSDs are #3. I don't think that the numbers are to far apart considering the number of dogs within the breed that are out there. If a count of how many in each breed there really are compared to the bites I think that the top 3 dogs would be closer % wise for bites. We know that the number of pit bulls out there is probably realistically 4x the amount of Rotts and GSDs, maybe even Rotts and GSDs put together. 

The first step to this becoming an an issue is when insurance companies put these breeds on as dangerous dogs and labeled them, they have laid the groundwork.


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## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> Yes I went and looked, I misread. GSDs are #3. I don't think that the numbers are to far apart considering the number of dogs within the breed that are out there. If a count of how many in each breed there really are compared to the bites I think that the top 3 dogs would be closer % wise for bites. We know that the number of pit bulls out there is probably realistically 4x the amount of Rotts and GSDs, maybe even Rotts and GSDs put together.
> 
> The first step to this becoming an an issue is when insurance companies put these breeds on as dangerous dogs and labeled them, they have laid the groundwork.


That is the per capita part. The numbers take into account all the dogs in a particular breed before the % is applied. What is unknown however, is how accurate the total breed numbers are. Reporting is done by various different sources (not just licensing or breed registrations) but those totals are all probably under, but if so - they should be proportionately under for all breeds.


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## jschrest

I'd be interested in knowing where they get there stats and counts from. Is it just dogs that are licensed through the cities/counties? I don't think it's ever going to be accurate if that's the case. We have a ton of unlicensed dogs in our community, as I'm sure in other areas as well. Are the estimating? 

And I'm sure the bite statistics are off as well. I'm sure many many bites by other breeds go unreported because they weren't bad bites. If every bite that occurred was recorded, I'm sure chi(mix) would probably be a front runner with the pit. .


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## Chip18

Dainerra said:


> Shoot, I have a child living next door whose parents told her that the correct response to a dog that scares her is to run screaming and to wave her arms to attract attention. Personally, I wonder if they don't like the child and are trying to get her killed.













A lot of good observations ... but I luv that one!!


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## llombardo

jschrest said:


> I'd be interested in knowing where they get there stats and counts from. Is it just dogs that are licensed through the cities/counties? I don't think it's ever going to be accurate if that's the case. We have a ton of unlicensed dogs in our community, as I'm sure in other areas as well. Are the estimating?
> 
> And I'm sure the bite statistics are off as well. I'm sure many many bites by other breeds go unreported because they weren't bad bites. If every bite that occurred was recorded, I'm sure chi(mix) would probably be a front runner with the pit. .


I agree with the CHI, they are the number 2 breed in shelters here. I would consider those little boogers dangerous(as far as bites go).


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## Stonevintage

To see where they get their statistics go to dogbites.org and click on studies source. These numbers and percentages only reflect the more serious injuries and of course deaths to humans caused by breed. LE, doctors and hospitals report. If a lesser bite and not reported - it won't be counted. Even so - the numbers available do tell a story.


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## jschrest

My mom has a chihuahua that is massively aggressive and will bite any small child that comes near it. Most adults as well. They are nasty little things when not trained properly (she treats it like a human baby) but most have child aggression issues regardless. And it's the same in our shelters, if it's not a pit(mix) it's a chi(mix). I'd do a lot more adopting if out shelters had more breeds offered. I won't adopt either of those breeds.


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## Chip18

llombardo said:


> I agree with the CHI, they are the number 2 breed in shelters here. I would consider those little boogers dangerous(as far as bites go).


I have owned or interacted with most of the dogs on a any give "Dangerous Dogs" list no problems. That being said the only dog that has ever bitten me ...was a CHI!!! 

Turned my back on her with "contempt" and she was like:


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## Dainerra

Stonevintage said:


> To see where they get their statistics go to dogbites.org and click on studies source. These numbers and percentages only reflect the more serious injuries and of course deaths to humans caused by breed. LE, doctors and hospitals report. If a lesser bite and not reported - it won't be counted. Even so - the numbers available do tell a story.


part of the issue is in breed identification, however. most people wouldn't actually recognize a pit bull if it bit them on the butt, no pun intended. 

Shoot, people can barely recognize a GSD unless it's a black/tan saddleback. Though they are quick to label any dog with pricked ears a GSD-mix. 

Most of the dogs being sold and marketed as pits are more mastiff than anything else. And any dog with a blocky head is a pit bull. I've seen people run screaming "pit bull" from labs, boxers, even one time a golden retriever. 

Like the old saying goes, there are 3 types of lies: lies, *darn* lies, and statistics. 

I adopted a lab puppy once that was labeled as a Rhodesian Ridgeback at the shelter because he had 1/2 inch long patch of fur on his back that was sticking up. I asked them how many RRs were actually wandering around rural West Virginia and if they'd ever actually seen one in person. Nope but they'd seen pictures and this dog had spikey hair on his back and the only breed with spikey hair was a RR


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## llombardo

I had a chihuahua once. I worked at a vet and his owners boarded him and never came back for him. The dog didn't like me. His options were to be put to sleep or learn how to like me. He chose the later. He actually turned out to be a good dog. His crummy owners went and got another chihuahua that looked just like him and named it the same thing. I brought the first one in for shots the same day they were bringing their new pup. My son was holding him and they recognized him, the man went to pet him and he growled and snapped at him.


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## Stonevintage

Dainerra said:


> part of the issue is in breed identification, however. most people wouldn't actually recognize a pit bull if it bit them on the butt, no pun intended.
> 
> Shoot, people can barely recognize a GSD unless it's a black/tan saddleback. Though they are quick to label any dog with pricked ears a GSD-mix.
> 
> Most of the dogs being sold and marketed as pits are more mastiff than anything else. And any dog with a blocky head is a pit bull. I've seen people run screaming "pit bull" from labs, boxers, even one time a golden retriever.
> 
> Like the old saying goes, there are 3 types of lies: lies, *darn* lies, and statistics.
> 
> I adopted a lab puppy once that was labeled as a Rhodesian Ridgeback at the shelter because he had 1/2 inch long patch of fur on his back that was sticking up. I asked them how many RRs were actually wandering around rural West Virginia and if they'd ever actually seen one in person. Nope but they'd seen pictures and this dog had spikey hair on his back and the only breed with spikey hair was a RR


I understand that it's all lies to you. It's not all lies to the people who count. Those in LE, Vet and Medical professions, and lets not forget the coroners. Those in charge of breed determination at this level have some tools and indicators to work with that your volunteer at a shelter does not.


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## selzer

We need numbers. Statistics. The following:

Number of Dogs(country); % of each formidable breed and their mixes; number of incidents requiring medical treatment/death; total number of deaths attributed to each; total cost of medical treatment associated with each breed. 

We do not have this information. 

If this information showed the following *THIS IS NOT REAL INFORMATION* :
Total number of dogs = 1 million
Total number of GSDs/mixes = 333k -- 30%
Total number of pits/mixes = 333k -- 30%
Total number of incidents 1000
Total number of incidents GSDs/Mixes =480
Total number of incidents Pits/Mixes =240
Deaths GSDs/mixes -- 2
Deaths pits/pit mixes -- 35
total medical expenses, GSDs/Mixes -- 112 thousand
total medical expenses, pits/pit mixes -- 3.2 million

If this were the case, if the breed and its mixes are SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous than other breeds, even though those breeds have more incidents, they tend to be serious in nature, but not SERIOUS in nature. We are talking typically stitches and antibiotics as opposed to plastic surgery and broken bones and multiple hospitalization days. 

My dog might bite you. You may need stitches or a drain. It will not kill you. Sorry, no chance. And, you will not be hospitalized.

I do not think that every dog should be muzzled in public because we do not want to single out pit owners and make them muzzle their dogs. Pit owners want all dogs to be treated equally, and only dogs that have a history to have constraints against them. They would rather have all dogs in the state or country muzzled and speutered and requiring liability insurance, if they are required to have these things. 

The thing is, there are so many criminal bums with these dogs, that even if these requirements were in place, a great percentage of pit owners would STILL not muzzle, not insure their dogs, not speuter them. So, I guess I am for BSL. 

I think cops should be able to arrest pit bull owners whose dogs are involved in an incident if they are not owning the dogs in accordance to the laws. And it is not like racism people. These are species of dogs, and dogs range from 4-6 pound Yorkies to 260 pound mastiffs, they are benign lap dogs, purse dogs, bird dogs, hounds, and there are herding dogs, working dogs, guarding dogs, fighting dogs. They are not all the same. If you choose to own a lion or a wolf or a tiger, should you have some constraints on your ownership, because of what you own and its potential to do serious damage? I think so. In fact, I think that laws should be able to seriously curtail the ownership of wild animals, and possibly breeds of dogs who, by the type of breed they are, contribute inordinately to the cost of medical care and deaths. This has to be in relation to the population of the breed. But fighting against BSL isn't working.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

A recent study conducted by Mayo Clinic and Phoenix Children's Hospital and published in the Journal of Pediatric Surgery confirms that more than half of the dog-bite injuries treated at the Phoenix hospital came from dogs belonging to an immediate family member.

The study assessed a 74-month period between 2007 and 2013 in which there were 670 dog-bite injuries treated at Phoenix Children's. Of those, 282 were severe enough to require evaluation by the trauma team or transportation by ambulance.

Characteristics of the most common injuries included:
• 55 percent of victims were male.
• The most common patient age was 5 years, but spanned from 2 months to 17 years.
• 28 dog breeds were identified; *the most common dog was pit bull.*
• More than 50 percent of the dogs belonged to the patient's immediate family.
• The most common injuries were lacerations (often to the face), but there were also a number of fractures and critical injuries such as severe neck and genital trauma.

Are we to blame the Mayo Clinic for labeling Pit Bulls, like some would insurance companies, for the number and severity of Pit Bull maulings? Isn't that shooting the messenger in both cases? Nobody put dog breed names on pieces of paper, put them in a hat and decided that day was the day to deliberately pick a random dog breed out of the hat and label it dangerous. Pit Bulls earned their rep, no third party company or organization is responsible for their reputation.


ASPCA study shows SPCA workers can correctly ID a pit bull 96% of the time. I don't believe breed ID is of the magnitude that others do. I know I can identify a Collie, a Beagle, an Irish Setter and a Pit Bull based on visuals alone. Unlike others, I take my dogs to dog parks. My dogs' welfare, and lives, depend on my ability to reliably do so.


In 2011:
31 Americans killed by dogs.
22 of the 31 killed by Pit Bulls.
9 Americans killed by all other breeds COMBINED.

In 2012:
39 Americans killed by dogs.
23 of the 39 killed by Pit Bulls.
16 Americans killed by all other breeds COMBINED.

In 2013:
32 Americans killed by dogs.
25 of the 32 killed by Pit Bulls.
7 Americans killed by all other breeds COMBINED.

In 2014:
42 Americans killed by dogs.
27 of the 42 killed by Pit Bulls.
15 Americans killed by all other breeds COMBINED.


----------



## Dainerra

the clinics, doctors etc don't say what type of breed it was. they ask the patient "what happened" 
Law enforcement doesn't generally know any more about recognizing dog breeds than anyone in the general public. Even vets aren't trained in identifying breeds. Do you know how many vets can't recognize even a GSD if it isn't the standard black/tan saddle back? They put it down as a "GSD mix"
Black GSDs get labeled as labs in vet offices across the country. 

that is my point. yes, "pit bulls" which includes dogs of much larger size including mastiffs and other breeds mixed in to make the dog bigger, are involved in more serious issues.

and unfortunately, in most cases you are talking about a dog that may not have any bully blood in it at all. It's a case of "if it looks like x, then it must be x" 
Never mind what breed the dog actually is.
That is the problem with most statistics. In many cases, the dog is never evaluated beyond this point "Well, it looks like a pit" and that is the end of the story.

If you look at the characteristics common in the study you cited, the circumstances of bites are almost universal and easily managed, no matter what breed of dog involved. 

I've seen the people who do the breed IDs in 3 different states. They don't have any special training. They don't have a list of breed characteristics that can positively ID a dog. They go by witness statements "it looked like a pit" They go by the build of the dog, blocky head muscular body, it's a pit (nevermind that it's an English bulldog. I've seen Boston Terriers listed as pit mixes).

Do SOME of them have training? I hope that somewhere someone is making the effort. But in many cases it's not there.

Then there is the public prejudice. If you say "dog attack" the average mind says "pit bull" so many witness accounts are already skewed in that direction and the mind sees what it expects to see. Do some research on the reliability of eye witnesses in any type of investigation - it is the most unreliable of evidence.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Applying and enforcing all breed dog laws will not stop the Pit Bull problem.
Leash laws won't stop this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEN-k-od6Rw

Rachel Ray's Pit Bull, who has a history of dog attacks, was on a leash with a dog trainer when it ripped off the ear of another leashed dog.

Rachael’s Rayging pit bull ordeal | New York Post

The problem with Pit Bulls is that the first attack often results in extreme damage or death, unlike most other breeds of dogs with rare exceptions. I guess it boils down to personal preference on whether one prefers a law that is reactive and does nothing to stop a first mauling or a law that is proactive which stops the attacks from happening, the latter of which would cause unnecessary hardship and restrictions to other breed owners whose breeds are not so extreme if not written as breed specific.


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## MineAreWorkingline

The breed identification cases I have followed almost always started with asking the owner for breed ID. Neighbors, family, animal control, LE, etc., have all had input as well. I have no reason to doubt the ID by so many people who work with so many Pit Bulls on a daily basis or to doubt that somebody would not know what kind of dog that they own. Not saying it doesn't ever happen, just saying I believe the likelihood would be very low. 

The ASPCA shelter workers had no training, yet had a high degree of accuracy, based on what breeds the owners turning the dogs in stated that they owned.


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## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The breed identification cases I have followed almost always started with asking the owner for breed ID. Neighbors, family, animal control, LE, etc., have all had input as well. I have no reason to doubt the ID by so many people who work with so many Pit Bulls on a daily basis or to doubt that somebody would not know what kind of dog that they own. Not saying it doesn't ever happen, just saying I believe the likelihood would be very low.
> .



I can give one case from actual experience. I knew the owner, knew the dog and knew the breeder. Dog was a poorly bred lab, AKC registered. Total nerve bag and scared of his own shadow. Intact of course because they planned to breed him to make some money and he was "so cute"

Dog attacked a kid riding by on his bike. Facial reconstruction, multiple lacerations, etc etc. I saw it on the news that night "pit bull mauls child" 
I talked to the owner and the police who were doing followup reports. "Oh the EMTs and police told me that I was ripped off. Labs don't bite people"
There was talk of suing the breeder for selling her a vicious breed instead of the lab they thought they were buying. 

So, in all of the incident reports the dog was listed as a pit. It wasn't. Owner even showed them the dogs registration. Instead of saying "lab" they convinced the owner that she'd been ripped off and that her dog was a pit bull.


----------



## llombardo

Another thing is that "Pit Bull" is several different breeds labeled as such. So when they are documenting bites a GSD is a GSD, a Rott is a Rott and a pit bull is any dog that is considered a bully breed. So which dog is doing the damage? Is there more of one of these breeds then others that are more likely to do damage?



"The American Pit Bull Terrier is one of the so-called bully breeds often labeled a pit bull. In fact, "pit bull" isn't a breed, but a term used to describe the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier."


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> I can give one case from actual experience. I knew the owner, knew the dog and knew the breeder. Dog was a poorly bred lab, AKC registered. Total nerve bag and scared of his own shadow. Intact of course because they planned to breed him to make some money and he was "so cute"
> 
> Dog attacked a kid riding by on his bike. Facial reconstruction, multiple lacerations, etc etc. I saw it on the news that night "pit bull mauls child"
> I talked to the owner and the police who were doing followup reports. "Oh the EMTs and police told me that I was ripped off. Labs don't bite people"
> There was talk of suing the breeder for selling her a vicious breed instead of the lab they thought they were buying.
> 
> So, in all of the incident reports the dog was listed as a pit. It wasn't. Owner even showed them the dogs registration. Instead of saying "lab" they convinced the owner that she'd been ripped off and that her dog was a pit bull.


Rest assured it works both ways like the Klonda Richey fatality breed was listed as mastiff mixes when they were Pit Bull / Cane Corso mixes or the case where a woman who owned a Pit Bull, told her neighbors and family her dog was a Pit Bull, she was killed by her Pit Bull, LE and AC confirmed it was a Pit Bull, the pictures probably are still on the internet showing a Pit Bull, yet on her official cause of death form the dog was listed as a Rottie mix.


----------



## llombardo

Here is some(I'm sure there a couple more) that are listed As bully breeds, which opens the door as labeling them Pit Bull, which again is not a breed but a group of dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A Pit Bull is the Amercan "Pit Bull" Terrier, bred to first bait bulls, then to fight and kill rats, and then later dogs in a pit, hence the name Pit Bull. (Joe Lucero/World Class K9)

The Pit Bull has been recognized by multiple breed registries for over a hundred years complete with its own breed standard.

To say that there are many breeds of Pit Bulls is no different than saying there are many breeds of Dalmations.



"No dog breed is surrounded by as much ignorance, misinformation, spin, myths and downright lies as the pit bull. Example: how many times have you heard a so called "breed expert" say one of the following:

There's no such breed as a 'pit bull'
It is all how you raise them
"Blue nose" is a type of pit bull
Dog aggression can be "rehabilitated"

Diane Jessup, author of The Working Pit Bull, The Dog Who Spoke With Gods, and co-author of Colby's Book of the APBT. 

Over the past 35 years Diane has trained industrial guard dogs; dogs used in movies and commercials; and put over 60 training titles on her own dogs. She is a certified police K9 trainer and retired from 20 years as an animal control officer. In an effort to speak out on behalf of game animals everywhere, she became POST certified as an expert on dog and **** fighting and has been an invited speaker on the subject of blood sports, the American pit bull and American game fowl, dog aggression and dog behavior for law enforcement in five countries. She has served as an expert witness on behalf of police K9 units and has been featured on shows like 48 Hours, McNeil/Leher, The O'Reilly Factor, Oprah and hundreds of news shows and articles.


----------



## Chip18

llombardo said:


> Here is some(I'm sure there a couple more) that are listed As bully breeds, which opens the door as labeling them Pit Bull, which again is not a breed but a group of dogs.


Hey that's a "who's, who's" list of my Dawgs!  I've had some or combinations of those guys!  Luv to have a Dogo, one day myself! But yeah not dogs for the "Furbay" crowd! 

The risk involved with poor management, and the potential for "damage" are indeed greatly "understated!"


----------



## Jenny720

I was never crazy about chihuahuas thought them to be nippy and hard to potty train. We added this little pup to our family on a impulsive outing and never had any regrets. He was our little puzzle piece that fit well. Our kids were very young at the time. He was not allowed to get away with any unwanted behavior, socialized with many kids/people. Looves little girls. He is my daughters best friend and they love training for agility in our backyard. He is the most humblest dog i ever had. We are all crazy about him. They are incredibly smart with big hearts and yes they can go on for longs walks and potty trained to go outside. They can be easily spoiled and prone to resource guarding. A person can easily spoil them because of their size and quickly cause them to have many issues.


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## Stonevintage

Dainerra said:


> the clinics, doctors etc don't say what type of breed it was. they ask the patient "what happened"
> Law enforcement doesn't generally know any more about recognizing dog breeds than anyone in the general public. Even vets aren't trained in identifying breeds. Do you know how many vets can't recognize even a GSD if it isn't the standard black/tan saddle back? They put it down as a "GSD mix"
> Black GSDs get labeled as labs in vet offices across the country.
> 
> that is my point. yes, "pit bulls" which includes dogs of much larger size including mastiffs and other breeds mixed in to make the dog bigger, are involved in more serious issues.
> 
> and unfortunately, in most cases you are talking about a dog that may not have any bully blood in it at all. It's a case of "if it looks like x, then it must be x"
> Never mind what breed the dog actually is.
> That is the problem with most statistics. In many cases, the dog is never evaluated beyond this point "Well, it looks like a pit" and that is the end of the story.
> 
> If you look at the characteristics common in the study you cited, the circumstances of bites are almost universal and easily managed, no matter what breed of dog involved.
> 
> I've seen the people who do the breed IDs in 3 different states. They don't have any special training. They don't have a list of breed characteristics that can positively ID a dog. They go by witness statements "it looked like a pit" They go by the build of the dog, blocky head muscular body, it's a pit (nevermind that it's an English bulldog. I've seen Boston Terriers listed as pit mixes).
> 
> Do SOME of them have training? I hope that somewhere someone is making the effort. But in many cases it's not there.
> 
> Then there is the public prejudice. If you say "dog attack" the average mind says "pit bull" so many witness accounts are already skewed in that direction and the mind sees what it expects to see. Do some research on the reliability of eye witnesses in any type of investigation - it is the most unreliable of evidence.


Of course there are margins for error. But, are you excluding statistics to the point where you are saying that there is no problem with these breeds - it's all in their imagination, everyone is inept? Which sounds like the PB mantra sung by owners throughout the US. This posts here have moved way beyond that.


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A Pit Bull is the Amercan "Pit Bull" Terrier, bred to first bait bulls, then to fight and kill rats, and then later dogs in a pit, hence the name Pit Bull. (Joe Lucero/World Class K9)
> 
> The Pit Bull has been recognized by multiple breed registries for over a hundred years complete with its own breed standard.
> 
> To say that there are many breeds of Pit Bulls is no different than saying there are many breeds of Dalmations.
> 
> 
> 
> "No dog breed is surrounded by as much ignorance, misinformation, spin, myths and downright lies as the pit bull. Example: how many times have you heard a so called "breed expert" say one of the following:
> 
> There's no such breed as a 'pit bull'
> It is all how you raise them
> "Blue nose" is a type of pit bull
> Dog aggression can be "rehabilitated"
> 
> Diane Jessup, author of The Working Pit Bull, The Dog Who Spoke With Gods, and co-author of Colby's Book of the APBT.
> 
> Over the past 35 years Diane has trained industrial guard dogs; dogs used in movies and commercials; and put over 60 training titles on her own dogs. She is a certified police K9 trainer and retired from 20 years as an animal control officer. In an effort to speak out on behalf of game animals everywhere, she became POST certified as an expert on dog and **** fighting and has been an invited speaker on the subject of blood sports, the American pit bull and American game fowl, dog aggression and dog behavior for law enforcement in five countries. She has served as an expert witness on behalf of police K9 units and has been featured on shows like 48 Hours, McNeil/Leher, The O'Reilly Factor, Oprah and hundreds of news shows and articles.


But it's not only the American Pit Bull Terrier that is put into this class. If it was the only dog considered a pit bull, then there is an argument, but when 5-6 other breeds are put into that class then everything changes. The breed does not exist on its own anymore because everything is considered a pit bull.

If they want to argue then they need to put each bully breed in its own class and not lumped together as a pit bull. It has become a very generic term for a whole group of dogs whether they are American Pit Bull Terriers or not. What is an Am Staf considered? A pit bull, but it's not a pit bull, it's an Am Staf

The registers for American Pit Bull Terriers is only for American Pit Bull Terries. An Am Staf is not going to be registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier but it's classified as a Pit Bull. Makes no sense and it hurts all of the individual breeds to be labeled. 

They don't know what bully breed it is so it must be a pit bull. That is not right nor fair.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> But it's not only the American Pit Bull Terrier that is put into this class. If it was the only dog considered a pit bull, then there is an argument, but when 5-6 other breeds are put into that class then everything changes. The breed does not exist on its own anymore because everything is considered a pit bull.
> 
> If they want to argue then they need to put each bully breed in its own class and not lumped together as a pit bull. It has become a very generic term for a whole group of dogs whether they are American Pit Bull Terriers or not. What is an Am Staf considered? A pit bull, but it's not a pit bull, it's an Am Staf
> 
> The registers for American Pit Bull Terriers is only for American Pit Bull Terries. An Am Staf is not going to be registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier but it's classified as a Pit Bull. Makes no sense and it hurts all of the individual breeds to be labeled.
> 
> They don't know what bully breed it is so it must be a pit bull. That is not right nor fair.


The Pit Bull is a breed, not a class. Every thing is NOT considered a Pit Bull. The ASPCA states that pit bull types and their mixes constitute only a mere 6% of dog breeds owned making them not "everything is a Pit Bull", and not even a very popular type when compared to herder types, sporting types, toy types, etc. 

There are breeds that are derived from the Pit Bull, e.g., American Bullies, and there are breeds that derived from the same roots, e.g., Bull Mastiffs. Some people considered derivatives and mixes as pit bull types (a class), where as others include those that share the same roots or even mastiff types. Legally, the courts of the US have defined pit bull types as Pit Bulls, Am Staffs, SBTs, and their mixes/derivatives. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

Until the mid 70s the AKC did cross register Pit Bulls as Am Staffs. As of earlier this year the ADBA changed and now registers the two as separate breeds.

The American Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier were once the same breed. One dog registry chose to recognize them and breed for appearance and a watered down temperament, the other registries chose to breed for temperament first, and then an athletic build. At this point whether they are the same breed or not is subjective. 

Is the Shiloh Shepherd a German Shepherd or a separate breed? I would venture to say that if a Shiloh Shepherd were to maul somebody to death, the fatality would be chalked up one for German Shepherds, or at the very least a shepherd type. (Or even misidentified as a German Shepherd!) Recently, there was a woman mauled to death, this past month in fact, by several dogs, most of them Pits and Pit mixes, one identified as a German Shepherd mix, complete with picture which showed a Rottie/hound mix, but it will go down in history as a GSD mix. Just because a dog is black and tan doesn't guarantee it is a GSD. It works both ways. 

And I am personally aware of six cases where breeds were misidentified just in the last two years, and the breeds were Pits/Pit mixes but were ID'd as other breeds. Two were ferreted out when it was brought to light that the first incident where a child was mauled to death by a family dog and the second where an elderly woman was mauled to death for merely walking up the street that the dogs involved were siblings. The authorities dug a bit deeper, found that the two dogs were Pit mixes and launched and all out hunt for the rest of the litter. It appeared that two fatal maulings by two different siblings raised in different homes was a bit more than how they were raised and genetics of the rest of the litter was of concern. Point is they were both ID'd as different breeds when in actuality they were both Pit mixes. Those records stand corrected, the rest do not.


----------



## Chip18

llombardo said:


> But it's not only the American Pit Bull Terrier that is put into this class. If it was the only dog considered a pit bull, then there is an argument, but when 5-6 other breeds are put into that class then everything changes. The breed does not exist on its own anymore because everything is considered a pit bull.
> 
> If they want to argue then they need to put each bully breed in its own class and not lumped together as a pit bull. It has become a very generic term for a whole group of dogs whether they are American Pit Bull Terriers or not. What is an Am Staf considered? A pit bull, but it's not a pit bull, it's an Am Staf
> 
> The registers for American Pit Bull Terriers is only for American Pit Bull Terries. An Am Staf is not going to be registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier but it's classified as a Pit Bull. Makes no sense and it hurts all of the individual breeds to be labeled.
> 
> They don't know what bully breed it is so it must be a pit bull. That is not right nor fair.


 Well that's the thing! I have been looking at the info posted by MAWLD and it's pretty interesting so thanks again for that!

But the facts of the Pit/Pitt notwithstanding. In the real world if you asked ten people to show us your Pit's I'm fairly certain you will get ten very different looking dogs "today??"


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well that's the thing! I have been looking at the info posted by MAWLD and it's pretty interesting so thanks again for that!
> 
> But the facts of the Pit/Pitt notwithstanding. In the real world if you asked ten people to show us your Pit's I'm fairly certain you will get ten very different looking dogs "today??"


Perhaps that is contingent on where you live, as that does not seem to be the case in my area.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Perhaps that is contingent on where you live, as that does not seem to be the case in my area.


 Well yes but isn't that exactly what a part of the problem is??? 

My first Pit encounter was with a APBT as they were/are quit numerous in Sn Jose Ca. Although I suppose (sigh) it could have been a AST. In any case "it" meant business!

The second encounter was some kind of Mastiff/Pit mix?? As was Gunther but they look nothing alike! Pretty sure they would not have called him a Band Dawg, although I would but most likely they would say he is a Pit mix???

Maybe I can have my wife ask them ... pretty sure they don't want to talk to me after our run in with him! Rocky saved the day that time by being" "rational and calm!" 

But yeah taller than a Pit but shorter than a Mastiff but seriously thick in stature!


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The Pit Bull is a breed, not a class. Every thing is NOT considered a Pit Bull. The ASPCA states that pit bull types and their mixes constitute only a mere 6% of dog breeds owned making them not "everything is a Pit Bull", and not even a very popular type when compared to herder types, sporting types, toy types, etc.
> 
> There are breeds that are derived from the Pit Bull, e.g., American Bullies, and there are breeds that derived from the same roots, e.g., Bull Mastiffs. Some people considered derivatives and mixes as pit bull types (a class), where as others include those that share the same roots or even mastiff types. Legally, the courts of the US have defined pit bull types as Pit Bulls, Am Staffs, SBTs, and their mixes/derivatives. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> Until the mid 70s the AKC did cross register Pit Bulls as Am Staffs. As of earlier this year the ADBA changed and now registers the two as separate breeds.
> 
> The American Staffordshire Bull Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier were once the same breed. One dog registry chose to recognize them and breed for appearance and a watered down temperament, the other registries chose to breed for temperament first, and then an athletic build. At this point whether they are the same breed or not is subjective.
> 
> Is the Shiloh Shepherd a German Shepherd or a separate breed? I would venture to say that if a Shiloh Shepherd were to maul somebody to death, the fatality would be chalked up one for German Shepherds, or at the very least a shepherd type. (Or even misidentified as a German Shepherd!) Recently, there was a woman mauled to death, this past month in fact, by several dogs, most of them Pits and Pit mixes, one identified as a German Shepherd mix, complete with picture which showed a Rottie/hound mix, but it will go down in history as a GSD mix. Just because a dog is black and tan doesn't guarantee it is a GSD. It works both ways.
> 
> And I am personally aware of six cases where breeds were misidentified just in the last two years, and the breeds were Pits/Pit mixes but were ID'd as other breeds. Two were ferreted out when it was brought to light that the first incident where a child was mauled to death by a family dog and the second where an elderly woman was mauled to death for merely walking up the street that the dogs involved were siblings. The authorities dug a bit deeper, found that the two dogs were Pit mixes and launched and all out hunt for the rest of the litter. It appeared that two fatal maulings by two different siblings raised in different homes was a bit more than how they were raised and genetics of the rest of the litter was of concern. Point is they were both ID'd as different breeds when in actuality they were both Pit mixes. Those records stand corrected, the rest do not.


It doesn't matter how they started, they have been a seperate breed for decades. For whatever reason they were deemed to be different and therefore should not be clumped together. 

So show me on the bite history where Am Staffs are? Not one bite listed to that breed? I don't buy it. Your two most likely to get confused are American Pit Bull Terrier and Am Staffs, two very seperate breeds.


----------



## llombardo

Chip18 said:


> Well that's the thing! I have been looking at the info posted by MAWLD and it's pretty interesting so thanks again for that!
> 
> But the facts of the Pit/Pitt notwithstanding. In the real world if you asked ten people to show us your Pit's I'm fairly certain you will get ten very different looking dogs "today??"


I agree 100%. I do it myself. If it looks like a pit bull then I call it a pit bull. It's just easier and not necessarily the correct way, but that is how everyone thinks.


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## Stonevintage




----------



## Chip18

llombardo said:


> So show me on the bite history where Am Staffs are? Not one bite listed to that breed? I don't buy it. Your two most likely to get confused are American Pit Bull Terrier and Am Staffs, two very seperate breeds.


 I am fully committed to staying out of that one! If I had to state a position it would be, the dog "is" what it's paper say it is!


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## Stonevintage

Stonevintage said:


> View attachment 319106


Here is the explanation Chip - even what a (registration) paper says can be confusing I had posted a similar explain a few days ago from another PB side but I guess it got missed.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Here is the explanation Chip - even what a (registration) paper says can be confusing I had posted a similar explain a few days ago from another PB side but I guess it got missed.


 I saw it above and read it. I find it confusing but I go with first hand experiance, many years ago when I said a guy had a great looking APBT! He was deeply offended! And explained in great detail how it was an American Staffordshire Terrier!

I stay clear "and Patterdale Terrier??? Not getting that one at all?? Vintage stuff I'm pretty sure? The head is all wrong??


----------



## Chip18

Had to look! 
Patterdale Terrier Dog Breed Information and Pictures

I guess under temperament explains it, I suppose so, they do nothing for me.


----------



## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> I saw it above and read it. I find it confusing but I go with first hand experiance, many years ago when I said a guy had a great looking APBT! He was deeply offended! And explained in great detail how it was an American Staffordshire Terrier!
> 
> I stay clear "and Patterdale Terrier??? Not getting that one at all?? Vintage stuff I'm pretty sure? The head is all wrong??


Ha! If the info is true - that the Stratt's are the "show version" of the APBT - then I could see that guy getting fussy

Did you see my post way back here about the Canadian PB ban - now their #1 choice in (I think it was Quebec) has been the Boxer for the last decade? I know you are a boxer guy. The dog bites with the boxer are still way low - the idiot bad guy owners don't seem to be able to screw up the boxer like they did the PB. Good on the Boxer


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> It doesn't matter how they started, they have been a seperate breed for decades. For whatever reason they were deemed to be different and therefore should not be clumped together.
> 
> So show me on the bite history where Am Staffs are? Not one bite listed to that breed? I don't buy it. Your two most likely to get confused are American Pit Bull Terrier and Am Staffs, two very seperate breeds.


March of 2015 is not decades but a few mere months in respect to the ADBA. 

It appears that the UKC still cross registers Am Staffs as Pit Bulls.

Somehow breed registries throughout the world and all their collective dog expertise don't agree with you anymore than the judicial system of the United States.

It does matter how it started, genetics are genetics.

Earlier you spoke of fairness. Is it fair to a toddler whose has lost their life to the jaws of a Pit Bull to maintain the status quo lest one Lab/Boxer mix be treated unfairly? What about future toddler victims? Is it fair to them to place the welfare of a dog above theirs?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> Here is the explanation Chip - even what a (registration) paper says can be confusing I had posted a similar explain a few days ago from another PB side but I guess it got missed.


Much of the last few pages have already addressed the current comments. 

Not the man Chip though!


----------



## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> Had to look!
> Patterdale Terrier Dog Breed Information and Pictures
> 
> I guess under temperament explains it, I suppose so, they do nothing for me.


Woah! 10-12 lbs of dog from H ---. You don't suppose these have been bred in to PB lines and that's why they're included in the registry


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> Woah! 10-12 lbs of dog from H ---. You don't suppose these have been bred in to PB lines and that's why they're included in the registry


Patterdales are extremely game. There was a baby killed this year in the UK by a Patterdale Terrier. It rocked the media that such a small dog could kill a human.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Ha! If the info is true - that the Stratt's are the "show version" of the APBT - then I could see that guy getting fussy
> 
> Did you see my post way back here about the Canadian PB ban - now their #1 choice in (I think it was Quebec) has been the Boxer for the last decade? I know you are a boxer guy. The dog bites with the boxer are still way low - the idiot bad guy owners don't seem to be able to screw up the boxer like they did the PB. Good on the Boxer


 No there is a lot of info in this so I missed it The sad thing is when they try that crazy crap, they are usually disappointed and those dogs get dumped or abused. Some people "actually" think they look fierce??? 

The good news is that usually the ones that try that are the "ignorant, clueless tools," that are a big part of the Pitt problem! 

Point being they usually chose the American Line dogs by and large they don't know of the Euro's/German Dogs! No surprise there on the Boxerfroum Euro dog's are "still" a mystery! 

Bad boy Boxers numbers would be on the increase if "tools" were using these guys:

Cliff vom Grand Kevin

Might have a member with a Euro on his hands now?? Lots of problems with that dog! He has been through a bunch of trainers! Bark Busters could not help him?? Imagine that! 

But he now understands what a "Balanced Trainer" is and we believe he's found one ...so we shall see??

And as a concession to "other" Boxer owners that have not had the same Boxer experience as myself ...(all of them I have ever seen, met, and worked with. Have been pretty much like my own "Goofy" girl. ) But ...yes I understand that "not" all of them are like my girl was.

With Boxer's it's USA all the way for meeee! :laugh:


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Patterdales are extremely game. There was a baby killed this year in the UK by a Patterdale Terrier. It rocked the media that such a small dog could kill a human.


Are they a part of the vintage Pitt history??? 

I thought I saw mention of them??? And yes I would certainly say they are certainly deceptive looking to my eyes in any case. But I only need one "pointy nose" dog so one of those won't replace a GSD for me.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Are they a part of the vintage Pitt history???
> 
> I thought I saw mention of them??? And yes I would certainly say they are certainly deceptive looking to my eyes in any case. But I only need one "pointy nose" dog so one of those won't replace a GSD for me.


I can't say I ever heard of a Patterdale being part of Pit Bull history but just because I never heard it don't make it so. As it stands, I would have to tentatively say no, but Pits aren't my breed, GSDs are. :crazy:


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I can't say I ever heard of a Patterdale being part of Pit Bull history but just because I never heard it don't make it so. As it stands, I would have to tentatively say no, but Pits aren't my breed, GSDs are. :crazy:


Hmmm, well I guess all I have is speculation and innuendo then ?? I would have sworn I saw some weird looking dog in old books and I would tend to think that's part of how Am Staffs and APBT got tagged with terrier?? 

But I don't "know" that to be the case! I think they are funny looking anyway and certainly not like any Pitt or Mastiff I have ever seen, temperament or not.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm, well I guess all I have is speculation and innuendo then ?? I would have sworn I saw some weird looking dog in old books and I would tend to think that's part of how Am Staffs and APBT got tagged with terrier??
> 
> But I don't "know" that to be the case! I think they are funny looking anyway and certainly not like any Pitt or Mastiff I have ever seen, temperament or not.


Chipp,  I do believe that the Olde English Bulldogge was crossed mainly with the now extinct White Terrier and some other terriers with extreme game. Not sure if Patterdales existed back then, but I have heard of their extreme game, so if they did, it would not surprise me that they were utilized in creating the Pit Bull. 

Pit Bulls were crossed with terriers to decrease size, increase agility, and increase game.

I would be interested in the "weird" looking dog you were talking about. Was it a terrier type?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Okay, Chipp, seems that Patterdales where first hinted about in the 1930s but really did not become recognized as a breed until the 1950s so it should be safe to say that would eliminate them as a precursor to the Pit Bull. 

Did you ever read the terrierman's blog? Lots of good stuff there.

Terrierman's Daily Dose: A Brief History of the Patterdale Terrier


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Okay, Chipp, seems that Patterdales where first hinted about in the 1930s but really did not become recognized as a breed until the 1950s so it should be safe to say that would eliminate them as a precursor to the Pit Bull.
> 
> Did you ever read the terrierman's blog? Lots of good stuff there.
> 
> Terrierman's Daily Dose: A Brief History of the Patterdale Terrier


Well I will now! 

Wrong face and size for me but interesting, some of the old line drawings in books you can't really tell what you see the first Boxers were "weird" looking.

And how about these uh things?? A joe Six pack designer Dog?? 

AMERICAN BULLY BREEDERS CLUB ? Your American Bullies Information Center Worldwide 

Now you know if one of those ... uh "things" nutted up on someone?? That's going down as another Pit attack!! What right thinking person could say otherwise??? 

I could say with full confidence it's not an American Band Dogg! The whole "Pit" situation is just nuts! :crazy:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well I will now!
> 
> Wrong face and size for me but interesting, some of the old line drawings in books you can't really tell what you see the first Boxers were "weird" looking.
> 
> And how about these uh things?? A joe Six pack designer Dog??
> 
> AMERICAN BULLY BREEDERS CLUB ? Your American Bullies Information Center Worldwide
> 
> Now you know if one of those ... uh "things" nutted up on someone?? That's going down as another Pit attack!! What right thinking person could say otherwise???
> 
> I could say with full confidence it's not an American Band Dogg! The whole "Pit" situation is just nuts! :crazy:


Yes, American Bullies, a derivative (or mix) of Pit Bull so yes, if an attack would be considered Pit Bull. But from what I hear they are much more docile than Pit Bulls, and pricier.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Meant to address something brought up by another poster earlier, the stats show:

There never was a time when Dobermans attacked or killed in inordinate numbers. However, there was a time when Dobes were afflicted by an epileptic like condition, laymen's term "rage", where the Dobe would have a seizure that manifested itself as the Dobe glazing over and not recognizing its whereabouts or humans and would attack. Once the seizure ended, the Dobe would return to its normal self and act as if it did was not aware of what had happened. The condition is genetic and can be found in other breeds of dogs. 

Dobe breeders, before realizing what was the problem, began to breed for a more docile Doberman. Mean time the affliction was finally diagnosed and Doberman breeders dilligently worked to breed out the disease. In an effort to salvage the Dobes rep they continued to breed for a more docile Dobe in the US.

There also never was a time (usually attributed to the 80s) that German Shepherds did bite or kill in inordinate numbers more than other breeds of dogs, pure myth.

There was a time in the mid 90s when Rotts did a stint mauling and killing but then handed the torch to Pit Bulls in the early 2000s and they have tenaciously since clung to the title.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Here Chipp, Pit Bull / Mastiff mixes (Bandogs).

Bandog Video

We actually have one like these living a couple of blocks from my house. I should go down and video the fence they think will contain a bandog and post it.


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## Stonevintage

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There was a time in the mid 90s when Rotts did a stint mauling and killing but then handed the torch to Pit Bulls in the early 2000s and they have tenaciously since clung to the title.


Sometimes I just love the written word - this sentence


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, American Bullies, a derivative (or mix) of Pit Bull so yes, if an attack would be considered Pit Bull. But from what I hear they are much more docile than Pit Bulls, and pricier.


Ok I took a look the prices are uh ... insane! $2000 for a regular Pitt and $8000 to $10000 for XXL ?? 

And on closer inspection, no certainly not like any APBT I have seen! I don't doubt they are more docile! I don't think they can freaking move?? Those "dogs" are in my view an abomination! And on the one "breeder" site they use the terms Pit's and American Bully interchangeably?? 

WOW I'm stunned and embarrassed! But they did say they are more docile than there APBT counter part. Most likely because they can't freaking move! 

LabraDoodle are looking pretty good as designer dogs!


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Here Chipp, Pit Bull / Mastiff mixes (Bandogs).
> 
> Bandog Video
> 
> We actually have one like these living a couple of blocks from my house. I should go down and video the fence they think will contain a bandog and post it.


Well yep that's a Band Dawgg! And uh I hope the one near you is in the hands of a "responsible" dog owner??

Have to say the "fence" thing does sound like a cause for concern.


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## Chip18

Don't the bite stats come the CDC??


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well yep that's a Band Dawgg! And uh I hope the one near you is in the hands of a "responsible" dog owner??
> 
> Have to say the "fence" thing does sound like a cause for concern.


Unfortunately not, the yard is on a steep hill and is above the sidewalk about three feet with a concrete wall with a 42" chain link fence which is bent over and laid nearly flat on the bottom. A chihuahua can waltz out of it. At least they keep their dogs, the other is a Pit that takes a beating from the Bandog, in the house a lot.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Don't the bite stats come the CDC??


Despite the CDC finding that extreme bites were breed specific, Pit Bulls and Rotts, some genius decided that breed was of no consequence. So although they do keep a tally of bites, they no longer keep statistics on breed.

My friend who lost his toddler to the baby sitter's family pet Pit Bulls is working dilligently to get this changed but is not making much headway. The Pit Bull lobbyists who practice to deceive are well funded.

Which takes us back to Animal Farm Foundation that I have mentioned in previous comments whose mission is to secure equal treatment and opportunity for "pit bull" dogs. Jane Berkey, owner and operator as well as a major contributor loves Pit Bulls so much, in 2013 she contributed $2,850,000 of her family’s money to Animal Farm Foundation.

If you also go through the 990 form for the IRS for 2012 and 2011, Jane Berkey gave $1.5 million in 2012 and $1.5 million in 2011. Her brother (Andrew Saul) gave $155,323 in 2011 as well. Since AFF is a registered non profit organization, all of this is available for public scrutiny.

Jane Berkey inherited this money from her father. With so much cash being donated to secure equal treatment and opportunity for Pit Bulls, one can't help but wonder what dog Jane Berkey has in this fight to so readily hand over so much money with all the other woes and ailments of the world that most would consider to be a worthier cause than the mere promotion of Pit Bulls as family pets by the disreputable Jane Berkey.

I also would like to take this opportunity to introduce to you Ledy VanKavage, Board of Director and Lobbyist for Best Friends Animal Society which now operates all too frequently with AFF on the behalf of Pit Bulls.

Simply, follow the money trail.


----------



## G-burg

This story popped up on one of my news feeds... Thinking this thread needs some heroes, instead of all the doom and gloom...

Police Officer Dispatched to Save Pit Bull Being Choked and Beaten Does the Most Amazing Thing | One Green Planet


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## G-burg

Also, we ALL GET what the breed is capable of... No need to keep spitting out all these "facts." 

What's bothersome is people think this is the correct behavior of the breed and it is not.. Sure they "can" be animal aggressive, but not human.. Unfortunately it's the people that have screwed everything up as usual.. in breeding dogs that are not true to the standard and owning them for all the wrong reasons.. Kind of is happening to a lot of the breeds..

I guess I am one of the lucky ones in getting to see what this breed and the Amstaff's are all about.. Been around enough of them over the last 5+ years.. The ones that are functioning in society as they should be..

And one thing to keep in mind, in my area, the reason you do not see a lot of the all breed dogs, the shepherds, the golden's, the lab's, the cockers, etc.. is because they are the ones being pulled by the rescues 9 out of 10 times..


----------



## CrackedGSD

anyone else think it's funny how the same people that are calling variations of pit bulls "abominations" are the same people that love and defend over sized and out of standard german shepherds?


----------



## jschrest

Cracked, do those oversize GSD attack and maul people/animals the way those pit variations do? Apples and oranges buddy.


----------



## CrackedGSD

if you can't see the connection between not caring about breed standards and breeding whatever you want just because you can and there is a market for it when it comes to different breeds, then have fun with your fruit.


----------



## G-burg

> if you can't see the connection between not caring about breed standards and breeding whatever you want just because you can and there is a market for it when it comes to different breeds, then have fun with your fruit.


I totally get what you are saying...


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## jschrest

First, I would never breed. Ever. Even if I had amazing breeding stalk. Secondly, I would never purchase a GSD that was old fashion and bred for looks and size vs temperament and adhering to breed standard. 

Every bred can have bad seeds, that's a no brainer. The point many are trying to make is that pits (and variations) are bred in a way that produces animals that have a high likelyhood of one day snapping and attacking. And do to the strict ion of their bite, and their ability to feel little to no pain when in the frenzy mode, they do far more damage than most breeds.


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## MineAreWorkingline

G-burg said:


> Also, we ALL GET what the breed is capable of... No need to keep spitting out all these "facts."
> 
> What's bothersome is people think this is the correct behavior of the breed and it is not.. Sure they "can" be animal aggressive, but not human.. Unfortunately it's the people that have screwed everything up as usual.. in breeding dogs that are not true to the standard and owning them for all the wrong reasons.. Kind of is happening to a lot of the breeds..
> 
> I guess I am one of the lucky ones in getting to see what this breed and the Amstaff's are all about.. Been around enough of them over the last 5+ years.. The ones that are functioning in society as they should be..
> 
> And one thing to keep in mind, in my area, the reason you do not see a lot of the all breed dogs, the shepherds, the golden's, the lab's, the cockers, etc.. is because they are the ones being pulled by the rescues 9 out of 10 times..


I respectfully disagree with people knowing the capabilities of the breed.

I fail to see where anybody is trying to promote that human aggression is a normal part of the breed's behavior or standard but you do have to bear in mind that no dogman ever culled an human aggressive winning pit fighter. On the contrary, those human aggressive winners were used extensively for breeding and are the forefathers of the Pit Bulls that live in our family communities today.


"Show me evidence of one instance where a well-known dogman culled a manbiter that was a winning pitdog or producer, or even showed potential in either area. There is no evidence to suggest such dogs were regularly culled, however, there is ample evidence to suggest the contrary:

Gr. Ch. Gambler’s Virgil – while in a rage, tried to bite the Gambler, and actually tore the shirt off of Gambler’s back as he tried to get away from him. Gambler thought very seriously about putting the dog down, but instead decided to roll him. Evidently he liked what he saw and by the tender age of just over 18 months, Virgil became a 1X winner.

Adams’ Gr. Ch. Zebo ROM – attacked Mr. Adams’ son and nearly took his son’s ear off. After the request of Mr. Adams’ wife, Zebo was sold again, this time to Mr. Johnson who fought him twice more.

Loposay’s Buster ROM – The late Barney Fife and his brother, Matt, went traveling through North Carolina to visit Mrs. Loposay and then go to the Fork Farm, to see Mr. Grady Cummings. Upon arrival to Mrs. Loposay’s, they were able to see the great producer Buster, who made an attempt to bite both of them.

Stepp’s Gr. Ch. Angus – his only downfall was he was a man-biter, such as many of the best-to-be were ie; Gr Ch Art (ROM), Gr Ch Zebo (ROM), Dbl Gr Ch Tornado, Ch Honeybunch (ROM), and Ch Yellow John (ROM) just to name a few…

Indian Bolio ROM – would scream with rage until he was released into the other dog. Occasionally, he would bite you if not released quick enough… and Bullyson… and Chinaman… and so on."

– Dogmen conversations about man biters and man eaters


I must admit that I envy you with only five years experience. I personally would prefer that I had none, but I have been forced to have nearly fifteen years of experience with the breed and I do not consider myself lucky in that aspect.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

CrackedGSD said:


> anyone else think it's funny how the same people that are calling variations of pit bulls "abominations" are the same people that love and defend over sized and out of standard german shepherds?





CrackedGSD said:


> if you can't see the connection between not caring about breed standards and breeding whatever you want just because you can and there is a market for it when it comes to different breeds, then have fun with your fruit.


I am sorry but I don't understand your point.

I do understand that oversized German Shepherds are not bred to the standard.

Alternatively, a Pit Bull is supposed to be dog and / or animal aggressive and game, it is a part of their breed standard.

Could you explain your point please?


----------



## G-burg

> I must admit that I envy you with only five years experience. I personally would prefer that I had none, but I have been forced to have nearly fifteen years of experience with the breed and I do not consider myself lucky in that aspect.


Please don't envy me.. I just choose to look at life a little different.... And the 5 + years is only part of it.. 

I've been involved in working at a dog training facility for 10 + years and we've seen the good and the bad of all different breeds.. And I can say that pit bulls are not the #1 breed for coming in for aggression issues..


----------



## ILoveBella478

G-burg said:


> I must admit that I envy you with only five years experience. I personally would prefer that I had none, but I have been forced to have nearly fifteen years of experience with the breed and I do not consider myself lucky in that aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't envy me.. I just choose to look at life a little different.... And the 5 + years is only part of it..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been involved in working at a dog training facility for 10 + years and we've seen the good and the bad of all different breeds.. And I can say that pit bulls are not the #1 breed for coming in for aggression issues..
Click to expand...

So which dog is #1 ?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Who lives in Ohio?

The Ohio Constitution’s municipal home rule provisions authorize municipal corporations to govern themselves in local municipal matters independent of state laws. 

When Ohio repealed its statewide breed ban, approximately 80-90 municipalities chose to keep their Breed Specific Legislation intact. 

"Earlier this year there had been strong hints from the Pit Bull advocacy on a "secret" to be revealed at the May 30 Pit Bull March on the state capitol but the ever Pit-Bull-positive Huffington Post writer Arin Greenwood spoiled the surprise and announced breathlessly that a PAC "for dogs" has been formed in Ohio. The goal of OABD is an amendment to the Ohio Constitution prohibiting regulation of dogs by breed.

Ohioans Against Breed Discrimination is the brainchild of Steffen Baldwin and Luke Westerman. Baldwin has joined with Luke Westerman, a businessman and a self proclaimed philanthropist and good Samaritan to form OABD. These two, along with their wives/significant others, and Dana Pannella an Akron lawyer specializing in animal law, plan to raise five million dollars to promote their ballot initiative for a constitutional amendment that would prohibit any city or county in the state of Ohio from enacting or enforcing any breed specific legislation. 

They want to spend five million dollars to convince Ohio voters to vote away their home rule rights to run their communities as they see fit, leaving important decisions to those who fail to realize that "discrimination" is a human condition that has nothing to do with dogs. Here is a quote from OABD founding member Alisha Westerman "People should never allow discrimination to be supported by law and it is up to all of us to ensure it isn’t," "That’s what this PAC stands for and that is why everyone should stand up and disallow discrimination of any sort."

It is not discrimination to acknowledge breed traits, breeds were created for just these traits."

If the OABD PAC has its way, it will by bye bye home rule for the communities of Ohio!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

"Ohio law was changed by HB 14 in the spring of 2012, freeing shelters that had previously euthanized pit bulls to promote these dogs as family pets and send them off with unsuspecting families. It did not take long for the failure of HB 14 to become evident. 

The Hancock County Humane Society has added safety measures after a volunteer was injured by a Pit Bull mix.

The new shelter safety protocols at the Hancock County Humane Society include *panic buttons, additional cameras, and a buddy system for volunteers. * These protocols sound exactly like the protocols in a power-point done by the ASPCA for the purpose of protecting shelter volunteers from serious injury, and the shelters from serious liability issues. 

Director Paula Krugh said the dog bit the volunteer while they were playing outside. 

“He really didn’t attack her. *He just kind of decided to turn her into the chew toy*,” Krugh said. The volunteer needed medical attention.

The Hancock County Humane Society has 30 to 50 volunteers at the shelter on any given day and all have received safety training and each has signed a liability waiver form in the event of injury to the volunteer. The liability waiver forms appear to be convenient for the shelter, three volunteers were bitten by dogs at the shelter in the previous year, all by Pit Bulls. 

Only one of the biters was euthanized, the others were adopted out to families?"


----------



## selzer

I live in Ohio. 

Ohioans have their share of stupidity to their credit.

In Ashtabula it is illegal to own or obtain a pit bull. Or it was. They changed the law. Now you can get a pit bull, but ONLY if you get it from a shelter. Our shelter is privately owned and run, full of pit bulls, and I don't know if anyone there has had any real training in how to assess a pit bull. But it is far better to get a pit bull from a shelter than from a breeder, because the dogs in the shelter are, uhm, uh, I dunno. I guess they are more deserving of a home, and they never bite people?


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## MineAreWorkingline

That is interesting.

Most shelters push the notion that dogs are how they are raised and trained. Nobody knows how shelter dogs are were raised and trained. I wonder how that is working out for them?


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Unfortunately not, the yard is on a steep hill and is above the sidewalk about three feet with a concrete wall with a 42" chain link fence which is bent over and laid nearly flat on the bottom. A chihuahua can waltz out of it. At least they keep their dogs, the other is a Pit that takes a beating from the Bandog, in the house a lot.


Well that entire situation just sucks!!

Not good at all ...


----------



## Chip18

CrackedGSD said:


> anyone else think it's funny how the same people that are calling variations of pit bulls "abominations" are the same people that love and defend over sized and out of standard german shepherds?


Well ... to be accurate "I" was the one that threw the term "abomination" out there and it was not directed at Pits ..exactly!

And prior to my first GSD who proved to be my greatest challenge ... all my prior experience was with American Band Dogge, Boxers and Boxer/Pit mixes.

Out of all of them my American Band Dogge was the only one that required me to get an outside "opinion" ever! This was in 2000. First time dog owner and of course the plan was Dog Park!! 


But it was ...yeah...uh NO! Gunther made it pretty clear out the gate that no (without work) that was not going to happen!???

I had no idea what the deal was?? So I consulted a "Pro" for the first and so far only time ever. 

He was pronounced as not an Aggressive Dominant male but "merely" a Dominate male! No problem, no Dog Parks, no "I thought my Dog was friendly folks" teach him to ignore other dogs ...problem solved!

And in retrospect I'm pretty sure the people I bought Gunther from had no idea what they had?? Or if they did they were not passing the info along?? Gunther's dad was huge, Bull Mastiff size with a head like a APBT and he loved people! So no problem that I could see?? So yeah an argument could be made that it was the clueless selling dogs to the clueless?? And that could be a problem! Worked out fine for me but in a lot of cases apparently, not so well for some??

Gunther, never harmed a dog his whole life. Did scare the crap out of a lab in the vet office when my wife lost the leash but no harm was done other than a few folks underwear! 

But he did learn how to play well with others and he did not eat the little poc, neighbor's dog that got in his face on Gunther's lawn and stood there barking at him!!

Gunther, merely stared hard at the dog and looked towards me to handle the "situation" and my Boxer stood to his flank looking to him to see how to proceed!! If Gunther had struck?? That dog would have been torn in half before I could move! That never happened! So bullies at there finest, !

And the Boxer mixes ...only BYB people do that. No one that breeds true American Band Dogs use Boxers! Boxers are to Goofy to be of any value to them! I guess there is a "Goofy" gene and all the mixes I have seen and dealt with seem to have it! 

Don't know about the Euros (Boxers) oddly enough they seem to be unknown in Boxer world to regular "Pet People" so I am a Bully guy and my commitment was strictly reserved for these guys "American Bullies":
XXL Pitbulls - Extreme Bully & Biggest Pitbull Breeder

It's just to much for me! If you happen to have one of those however??? Then I apologize for insulting your dog! It is a GSD board, so I did not think anyone here would feel "offended" at my choice of verbiage?? 

I figured most here would see, and think at the minimum, as I do that there is a dog that looks like it can't maneuver worth a crap?? 

So all that being said .... and with a slight spin on what was said to me. 

Shoot the "right messenger!" 


Carry on all.


----------



## MadLab

Its' weird how my bullmastiff cross hasn't killed another dog or attacked a person.

Maybe there is something wrong with her.

Funnily, I've seen her resist fighting smaller dogs even when they are pushing it. I've seen her resist fighting another larger bullmastiff mix female. If they go too far she will let them know she won't be bullied but she won't open attack and will wait to see dogs true intention before she acts.

I know she is very strong and can protect herself and my house but she choices the path of least resistance when faced with potential aggression from other dogs. A dog running at her can be stopped with a grunt and a look. I've see real Am Pit bitch back down from my female. (that was weird, 2 bull breeds females face to face, and the Am pit backs down and returns to it's owner)

Maybe it is the dog in her shining through and the fact that she is socialized with people and dogs really well. Part of that socializing is obedience to me and part of it is self confidence and most of it is *Dog Behavior. 

*I hope people aren't trying to convince others that bull breeds don't have the same social rules as other dogs once they are adequately socialized. At that stage people begin to run the risk of being totally unrealistic and out of touch and show they never worked with bull breeds or possibly many other breeds.

I see common traits shining through the more dogs I work with or see socializing. People need to be sure to realize all that a dog is capable of. Good and Bad. Then you'll have a more realistic view. You will never be lulled into a false sense of security. Maybe x's GSD male is a potential killer, who knows. Is it unknown for a GSD to kill a person or a dog. I don't think so. People should realize there dog is quite capable of doing all the damage a pit can do.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

One of the dogs I had as a kid was a Collie. I never expected him to act like Lassie and save me from the well. It would have seemed a bit weird to expect him to act like one specific Collie, instead of being a typical representative of his breed. (I read a lot of dog books as a child including books detailing individual behaviors and appearances of dog breeds per breed standards.) It did not make me think there was something wrong with him. An occasional atypical specimen of any breed, though they do exist, should never be considered representative of normal breed behavior. 

The German Shepherds I own(ed) do/did not act like Rin Tin Tin. I don't find it weird at all. It never lead me to believe that anything was wrong with them as most acted as the breed standard outlines. I did have two German Shepherds (siblings) with Golden Retriever temperaments. I found their atypical behavior weird as I knew they did not represent a typical German Shepherd and I never presented them as such leading other people to believe that this is what they could expect if they added a German Shepherd to their home.


----------



## MadLab

So you agree that breed generalizations are often wrong. Thats refreshing.

Often Dogs have individual traits and personality if it is nurtured and allowed to reveal itself. 

Even in a genetic context. The dogs within a breed should nave a healthy gene pool, ensuring diversity within the frame work of the breed standard. Without it the pool is diminished. My point is dogs should act differently from other dogs you meet. They are all different. No 2 are the same.

I don't buy into breed specific social behaviors at all. I believe all dogs have a sense of pack structure and will obey a good handler, and blend into the social structure the handler decides. It can be trained if necessary. It will obey pack hierarchy once established.

It will learn from all its social interactions with people and dogs, and it's future behaviors are dependent on how you handle different situations in the dogs development.


----------



## Chip18

MadLab said:


> Its' weird how my bullmastiff cross hasn't killed another dog or attacked a person.
> 
> Maybe there is something wrong with her.


 That's odd ...mine had that same "problem??" Maybe they were "wired" wrong??


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## llombardo

Chip18 said:


> That's odd ...mine had that same "problem??" Maybe they were "wired" wrong??


When I was about 8, I had a collie chase me around a car trying to eat me, I'm thinking that's not normal for a collie? Then there was the 2 dobermans that terrorized the neighborhood and had people cornered on the columns on the porches. I can't forget the 2 GSDs that chased every kid for 4 blocks terriozing them. In the midst of all that there was a wonderful "pit bull" that ran away from her home daily to come to our house. She just wanted to be with us. She wouldn't allow the mailman on our porch, but everyone else was cool. She just hung out. We'd bring her home and she would be back by our house before us. That was Elvira, such a beautiful dog. My mom later regretted not asking her owners if we could just take her when we moved.


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## MineAreWorkingline

That is nowhere near what I said, quite the opposite.

Atypical defined: NOT representative of a type, group, or class

What I said is that an atypical dog of any breed should never be used to represent a dog breed's typical behavior as detailed by its respective breed standard. 

Breed has long been an accurate indicator of behavior. Genes matter. 

If they didn't, Pug dogs would be champion pit fighters and anybody with high level IPO aspirations would be selecting Irish Setters, but that is not the case. Genes matter.


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## Lilie

llombardo said:


> I had a collie chase me around a car trying to eat me, I'm thinking that's not normal for a collie?


I have a AKC registered Golden Retriever who will bite. He won't warn, he won't growl, he'll just bite. I've had to manage him since he was 6 months old and he is now 12. He does have health issues which include mild seizures.


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## MineAreWorkingline

BONNIE V. BEAVER, BS, DVM, MS, DACVB, Professor and Chief of Medicine, Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University
Executive Director, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

By its origin, a pit bull is a fighting dog that takes very little stimulus to initiate aggression, and it will continue to fight regardless of what happens.

Pit bulldogs have been responsible for about 70 percent of the deaths of humans killed by dogs since 1979.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dr. Radcliffe Robins – Dog behaviorist

“Temperament is 100% genetic; it is inherited, and fixed at the moment of the dog’s fertilization/conception/birth. Temperament in the dog cannot be eliminated nor transformed from one type to another. It cannot change during the dog’s lifetime. It is the permanent mental/neurological characteristic of the individual dog. Environment, socialization or training can MODIFY the expression of an individual dog’s temperament, but they cannot transform it nor eliminate it. The dog will die with the temperament with which it was born.”


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## MineAreWorkingline

MICHAEL W. FOX, veterinarian, animal behaviorist

“I spent 20 years studying the behavior of dogs and it’s not in their nature. Man, has created a monster, If you wish…These dogs were selectively bred to fight, they have greater propensity to fight than other animals, which is brought out in training.” “They can attack people, and because the attitudes of Pit Bulls it is more likely they will attack people. The worry is the power of the dogs jaw…to bite and not let go. It’s quite sufficient to crush right through a child’s arm or leg.”


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## MineAreWorkingline

KATHRYN HAWKINS, DVM

“After seeing another dog die from a pit bull attack, I feel compelled to write. The opinion that pit bulls are “mean because of the way they are raised” is often not the case. Both of the dogs I took care of that died were attacked unprovoked by pit bulls that were in families that raised them responsibly. Just as a retriever is bred to hunt birds — an instinct you can’t stop — many pit bulls have a genetic tendency to attack other animals. When they do, they are extremely powerful and don’t quit. I have never been bitten or growled at by a pit bull — they are very friendly. But when the instinct to attack another animal occurs, they cause serious damage, or death. They don’t bite people any more often than other breeds but when they do, it’s bad. The aggressiveness toward other animals and damage they do is not because of “the way they are raised” — it is usually due to a genetic instinct not in the control of the owner.”


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dr. Radcliffe Robins – Dog behaviorist
> 
> “Temperament is 100% genetic; it is inherited, and fixed at the moment of the dog’s fertilization/conception/birth. Temperament in the dog cannot be eliminated nor transformed from one type to another. It cannot change during the dog’s lifetime. It is the permanent mental/neurological characteristic of the individual dog. Environment, socialization or training can MODIFY the expression of an individual dog’s temperament, but they cannot transform it nor eliminate it. The dog will die with the temperament with which it was born.”


If only the "it's the way they're raised" folks would take this to heart!


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## MineAreWorkingline

"Breeds classified as Guard Dogs, Flock Guardians or Fighting Dogs have aggression related breed traits that are particularly worrisome. Assistance dog partners who do not have previous experience handling a dog with a strong Protection drive, a fierce Territorial instinct or a hereditary dog aggression problem should not attempt a partnership with one of these breeds. Those who do choose to work with one of these breeds must respect the darker side of its nature, learn how to avoid triggering it and never ignore the potential for a misunderstanding. Occasionally one hears of a Doberman or German Shepherd or a Rottweiler that seems to lack the normal hereditary breed traits that earned such dogs the reputation of being formidable guard dogs. But atypical specimens like that are extremely difficult to find, nor do they come with a lifetime guarantee. Realistically, your odds on a pup from those breeds growing up to be an adult that lacks his breed's guard dog instinct is very slim. Hereditary breed traits should always be considered part of the package when making a breed choice. 

"http://www.iaadp.org/breed.html.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Pit Bull Temperament - New Leash On Life

NLOL Chicago is an entirely volunteer run, nonprofit organization committed to finding loving homes for shelter dogs who might otherwise be euthanized.

Pit Bull Temperament

Pit Bulls are generally quite aggressive towards other animals, although the degree of aggression will vary from dog to dog. Pit Bulls are naturally animal aggressive and it is therefore necessary for the Pit Bull owner to take certain precautions in the housing, training, and socialization of the animal.

Animal aggression as it relates to the Pit Bull is a tricky thing. Even dogs that have never manifested the trait may, at some point, fire up and engage in a fight with another dog or suddenly begin to take a strong interest in small animals.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Jørn Våge, Tina B Bønsdorff, Ellen Arnet, Aage Tverdal and Frode Lingaas, 

Differential gene expression in brain tissues of aggressive and non-aggressive dogs

The domestic dog (Canis familiaris), with its more than 400 recognised breeds [1], displays great variation in behaviour phenotypes.

Favourable behaviour is important for well-being and negative traits such as aggression may ruin the owner-dog relationship and lead to relinquishment to shelters or even euthanasia of otherwise healthy dogs [2,3].

Behavioural traits result from an interaction of both genetic and environmental factors. Breed specific behavioural traits such as hunting, herding and calmness/aggression are, however, evidence of a large genetic component and specific behaviours show high heritabilities [4-8].


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## MineAreWorkingline

STANLEY COREN, PhD

"A dog's breed tells us a lot about that dog's genetic heritage and makeup. Genetics is a strong determinant of personality. In the absence of any other information, we can make a reasonable prediction about how the dog will behave based upon its breed."


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## MineAreWorkingline

John Paul Scott and John L Fuller carried out a series of selective breeding experiments at the Jackson Laboratories in Bar Harbor, Maine. By happy chance, their results revealed a simple rule that seems to work. Their general conclusion was that a mixed breed dog is most likely to act like the breed that it most looks like."


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## MineAreWorkingline

STEVE DUNO, dog trainer, pit bull owner

"The dogs that participated in these attacks weren't Pekingese. You don't have herds of Pekingese roaming the city attacking people. When someone says all breeds are created equal, well then they're denying the definition of what a breed is. Breed serves a particular purpose."

"I like them. They're eager. They're athletic. They're aesthetically pleasing. But even if they're bred perfectly, they can be problematic, particularly with other dogs."

"When you combine the breed specific behaviors ... with owners who either don't give a rip, or with owners who (have) too much dog, you have a problem."


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## MineAreWorkingline

JEAN DONALDSON, dog trainer

Most commonly, she sees dogs with aggression problems. While she's a fierce opponent of "breed bans" like the proposed outlawing of pit bulls that San Francisco debated two years ago, she believes it's undeniable that some breeds are predisposed to violence.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is nowhere near what I said, quite the opposite.
> 
> Atypical defined: NOT representative of a type, group, or class
> 
> What I said is that an atypical dog of any breed should never be used to represent a dog breed's typical behavior as detailed by its respective breed standard.
> 
> Breed has long been an accurate indicator of behavior. Genes matter.
> 
> If they didn't, Pug dogs would be champion pit fighters and anybody with high level IPO aspirations would be selecting Irish Setters, but that is not the case. Genes matter.


 I think you've made your larger point. Which is as "I" see it the "potential dangers inherent in the Bully breeds are greatly ...understated??" 

I don't think that many of us that know and luv, these dog's would disagree?? But then the "people" here that know them and luv ...aren't the problem.

The key to "victory" is knowing when to call it good! 

As to the Collie?? Never had one if I did most likely I would have drowned in said well! Stupid dog didn't go for help!!!!


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## MineAreWorkingline

RAY BROWN, former pit bull owner, breeder, dog fighter

Pit bulls didn't become dangerous because we fight them; we fight them because the English specifically bred them to be dangerous.


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## MineAreWorkingline

MARK PAULHUS, HSUS southeast regional coordinator

If it chooses to attack, it's the most ferocious of all dogs. I've never known of a pit bull that could be called off (during a fight). They lose themselves in the fight.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Heritability of behavior

Another researcher, Linda Van Den Berg, investigated specifically the heritability of impulsive aggression among golden retriever, a breed rarely involved in fatal and disfiguring attacks. The goal was find out whether impulsive aggressive behavior was inherited in those few golden retrievers who exhibit it, and if so, to isolate the gene responsible for the behavior. Van Den Berg found high heritability of impulsive aggression, but did not succeed in isolating the responsible gene(s).


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## MineAreWorkingline

Aggression

Book recommendations:

Genetics & The Social Behavior of Dogs by Scott & Fuller (avail. from dogwise.com and Amazon.com)


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## MineAreWorkingline

TRAINING : Villalobos Rescue Center

The Breed’s Original Purpose

Humans have created very specialized dogs through emphasizing desired traits and eliminating unwanted ones. It is no different with the Pit Bull breed. The American Pit Bull Terrier has been “selectively” bred for hundreds of years to fight other dogs. This is the sad “work” these dogs were created for. In the same way that Labradors were bred to retrieve birds, APBT’s were bred to face other dogs in mortal combat. Even in dogs that are not recently bred from fighting lines, the urge to rumble can arise at any time. Not to strongly emphasize this fact is to be negligent. We would be equally negligent if we were placing Beagles and failed to educate the adopter about why the specific traits that scent oriented dogs, hunting dogs, bred to work in packs, present certain challenges to those who wish to obedience train their hound.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> When I was about 8, I had a collie chase me around a car trying to eat me, I'm thinking that's not normal for a collie? Then there was the 2 dobermans that terrorized the neighborhood and had people cornered on the columns on the porches. I can't forget the 2 GSDs that chased every kid for 4 blocks terriozing them. In the midst of all that there was a wonderful "pit bull" that ran away from her home daily to come to our house. She just wanted to be with us. She wouldn't allow the mailman on our porch, but everyone else was cool. She just hung out. We'd bring her home and she would be back by our house before us. That was Elvira, such a beautiful dog. My mom later regretted not asking her owners if we could just take her when we moved.


Collies are not bred to be human or animal aggressive, Dobes and GSDs should have a modicum of human aggression, Pit Bulls are not bred to be human aggressive. 

So you presented one atypical Collie, and then several dogs that are typical of their breed. That is exactly my point. Breed is indicative of behavior although there are occasional atypical cases.


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## MineAreWorkingline

dogma13 said:


> If only the "it's the way they're raised" folks would take this to heart!


"It's the way they are raised" needs to go the same way as the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and thunder is the sound of angels bowling.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> I think you've made your larger point. Which is as "I" see it the "potential dangers inherent in the Bully breeds are greatly ...understated??"
> 
> I don't think that many of us that know and luv, these dog's would disagree?? But then the "people" here that know them and luv ...aren't the problem.
> 
> The key to "victory" is knowing when to call it good!
> 
> As to the Collie?? Never had one if I did most likely I would have drowned in said well! Stupid dog didn't go for help!!!!


You got it Chipp, but others totally misunderstood my points.

Nothing good ever comes from lies.


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## jschrest

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "It's the way they are raised" needs to go the same way as the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and thunder is the sound of angels bowling.


I was always told thunder was God yelling at us for our sins. My mom was kinda spooky like that, but your post gave me a good laugh


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## MineAreWorkingline

jschrest said:


> I was always told thunder was God yelling at us for our sins. My mom was kinda spooky like that, but your post gave me a good laugh


LOL You have to have a sense of humor or you should not own dogs.


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## MadLab

The first quote here is lifted from another thread but I though it was pretty relavent to recent postings.

Mine areWL said


> *None that I raised from a puppy would do that to me*


 regarding a dog growling with intent to attack.

I wonder why? Maybe you instilled some dicipline in your dog/pack. Maybe you 'raised' it correctly.

Are you acknowledging how important the 'raising' of a dog really is.

I'm sensing a double standard here after this bit of comedy.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *dogma13*
> _If only the "it's the way they're raised" folks would take this to heart!_
> 
> Mine are WL said "It's the way they are raised" needs to go the same way as the earth is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and thunder is the sound of angels bowling.


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> The first quote here is lifted from another thread but I though it was pretty relavent to recent postings.
> 
> Mine areWL said regarding a dog growling with intent to attack.
> 
> I wonder why? Maybe you instilled some dicipline in your dog/pack. Maybe you 'raised' it correctly.
> 
> Are you acknowledging how important the 'raising' of a dog really is.
> 
> I'm sensing a double standard here after this bit of comedy.


First to clarify the skewed meaning as defined above of the referenced thread, it was in regard to a person getting a puppy at 7 weeks of age and it maturing into a dog that suddenly growls at the person threatening to attack.

It is not surprising that my words, like that topic of the thread, are being twisted and skewed, past practice. The only thing missing is a swipe at the incompetency of Americans with their dogs. 

Do I flatter myself by taking credit for my breeders' blood, sweat and tears by claiming that I am responsible for who my dogs are? Hardly. If that were the case I would have saved myself thousands of dollars and made a beeline to the closet pound puppy. (I am not knocking pound puppies. They are just as much a product of their genetics as the next dog, but without a breeder or pedigree behind them, one just can't predict what are, or will be, the genetics of the mature dog and whether they will suit one's needs.) Of course, puppies can be a crap shoot, but with knowing the genetics, and having a knowledgeable breeder to put the lines together with a specific goal in mind, one greatly enhances the potential of getting the right stuff. I merely provide, the shaping, the molding, the enhancing of the qualities of the raw dog, not create them. If it is not there to begin with, no amount of "raising" and training will put it there.

The things I will take credit for is diligently researching the breed I choose to own and carefully selecting a breeder that produces dogs that will serve my needs. If the breed standard says erect ears, I expect erect ears. If the standard says medium size, I expect medium size. If the standard states must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behavior, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog, I expect it. 

Let's remember, it is reputable breeders that are the stewards of the breed. They breed to meet or exceed the breed standard with each and every litter they put on the ground. If the aforementioned behavioral qualities were not genetic, then it would be impossible to breed for them, and they could NOT be a part of the breed standard. Breed standards do not mandate how people should raise and train their dogs so that they may exhibit certain behavioral qualities, they specify which genetics qualities are desired. If dogs were merely how we raised and trained them to act, then we really would not need these breed stewards, any dog would do. Gratefully, these great breeders embrace the task at hand, carry on, and give us the wonderful breeds as we know and love them. (THANK YOU REPUTABLE BREEDERS!!!) 

I will also take credit for researching reputations of potential breeds and any health and temperamental issues associated with them. If my research pointed to hip dysplasia, I then researched that condition in that breed. If my research had alerted to number one breed to kill the family children, number one breed to attack its owner unprovoked, number one to kill its owner, I certainly would have researched that as well. If the documentation was there to support the data, I would just merely cross that breed off of my list, hip dysplasia being easily the lesser of the two evils.

I think the double standard is merely a case of wishful thinking.


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## Chip18

Would the give Peas a chance thing be appropriate???


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Would the give Peas a chance thing be appropriate???


Absolutely!


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Absolutely!


Well ... as I see it, the fact that the Dangers inherent with the sigh, ... I'll say "Breed" are being understated!

Tia's website is fantastic but that reality (on her website) is "not" what people see on "Pitbulls and Paroles??" I think "reasonable" people can agree with that??

So now we have the, it's in the genes vs responsible owners camps! Irresistible force vs immovable object as it were. 

Neither side is going to change their positions ..."apparently." Being reasonable I would say sure buy the best dog with the best genes and you should not have a problem.

But I think it's fair to say that millions of Pet owners don't do that and there dogs don't end up on the news. So by extension does that means that all those millions of dog that aren't on the news have good nerve and solid temperament??? I don't know?? Seems unlikely to me??

No one has done a Bully poll and talked to owners whose Bully's "don't" have issues??? Nobody cares about those dogs, they aren't a problem!

As I see it, neither side can "prove" their position?? The only way in my view to prove either position, would be to wind back time. Take the given problem dog back to the Future as it were and put that exact same dog in more responsible dog owners hands and then see what happens?? Yeah not to likely. 

But hey if somebody figures it ...sign me up! I'll happily take the back in time puppy and see what 'I" can do! 


Soooo that's my long winded way of saying:


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well ... as I see it, the fact that the Dangers inherent with the sigh, ... I'll say "Breed" are being understated!
> 
> Tia's website is fantastic but that reality (on her website) is "not" what people see on "Pitbulls and Paroles??" I think "reasonable" people can agree with that??
> 
> So now we have the, it's in the genes vs responsible owners camps! Irresistible force vs immovable object as it were.
> 
> Neither side is going to change their positions ..."apparently." Being reasonable I would say sure buy the best dog with the best genes and you should not have a problem.


Yes, anybody that has made their mind up will not likely change their minds, but there are too many people out there that are just simply not aware of the facts that straddle the fence. In the meantime, countless pets are being mauled and killed and so are some people. 

Believe this, I took my puppy to the park yesterday. Yes she was off leash, but she was walking by my side heeling. Guess what? Pit Bull attack! I ran interference until good samaritans could get there and help permanently separate.

Ask trainers on here what happens to puppies who are attacked by dogs, it appears to be one of the main reasons dog parks aren't recommended.




Chip18 said:


> But I think it's fair to say that millions of Pet owners don't do that and there dogs don't end up on the news. So by extension does that means that all those millions of dog that aren't on the news have good nerve and solid temperament??? I don't know?? Seems unlikely to me??
> 
> No one has done a Bully poll and talked to owners whose Bully's "don't" have issues??? Nobody cares about those dogs, they aren't a problem!


The answer is a resounding no. The number of attacks that hit the media are minute. Very few hit the media. Just read back on the posts on here where people spoke of attacks, NONE hit the media. 

If you followed this issue to the degree that I do, you would find yourself encountering some of the same people in different sources. For example, they may come here saying my Pit Bull never harmed anybody. Then you will see them posting on a Pit Bull forum talking about how their dog broke its leash on five separate occasions and killed companion animals. Do you ever hear Rachel Ray promoting how savage her Pit Bull is? NO. Do you ever hear Rachel Ray promoting Pit Bulls as good companion animals? YES. Yet her Pit Bull ripped the ear off of a little dog and it wasn't its first attack on a dog. How do some people look themselves in the mirror? If you took a poll, you would not get honest results. One thing I have found is that many Pit Bull owners don't acknowledge animal aggression as aggression, many view it as normal dog behavior. There was one poster on here talking about what a people lover her Pit Bull is, she failed to mention whether it tried to kill other people's pets or not. 

As you mentioned earlier, Tia Torres, Cesar Milan, the ASPCA and their like, are typical Pit Bull advocates that speak out of both sides of their mouths. They promote Pit Bulls as no different than any other dog in public (then why have dog breeds?) while obviously knowing the truth and just blatantly lying.



Chip18 said:


> As I see it, neither side can "prove" their position?? The only way in my view to prove either position, would be to wind back time. Take the given problem dog back to the Future as it were and put that exact same dog in more responsible dog owners hands and then see what happens?? Yeah not to likely.
> 
> But hey if somebody figures it ...sign me up! I'll happily take the back in time puppy and see what 'I" can do!
> 
> 
> Soooo that's my long winded way of saying:


I also disagree with proving genetics. Genetics has been a proven science for decades and you can't kiss, hug, raise or train genetics out of a dog. I have never in my life bought a dog based on appearance first, always bought on expected genetic temperament and behavior.


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## wolfy dog

Our local shelters and all these so called rescues/hoarders/ animal lovers are at fault for advertising the dog aggressive dogs as furry people "who want to be the sole focus of attention", "who don't want to share the love with another dog", need careful introduction with your other dog(s)", "gets along well with certain dogs or with the other gender" etc,etc. It is getting hopeless here. More and more are imported from CA and end up back in the shelters. This discussion has brought my doubts about the Pits back to the surface and I am seriously considering not to take on Pits anymore (as a trainer) for aggression cases. My experience in that regard so far is that you cannot open owners' eyes to what they actually have. Example from last year: a 6 month old Pit pup had attacked their 11 year old boy in the face and I was asked for help. The father hated the dog but the mom loved the dog to pieces. The boy was sitting there, teary eyed. The pup was not socialized and afraid and barking and snarling at me. On leash he would try to bite me, jumping high towards my face and I had a heck of a time keeping him from biting me. Never seen that in all the 30 years of pet dog training. She asked me what I would do if it were my dog. I told them flat out that I would put him down. The father loved that answer. Guess what? The rumor started in my little town that I just tell people to kill their dogs if there are problems. Even the fancy, privately owned pet store does not refer anyone anymore. So far none of my advice for Pit owners has been taken seriously and I think people just want to hear that their dogs are fine. Thanks for the venting opportunity.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A good story by Inside Edition where a shelter lied about the breed of a Pit Bull in order to get it adopted and it mauled a child. 

After Dog Bites 12-Year-Old Girl, Family Accuses Shelter of Deceiving Them - Inside Edition


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> Our local shelters and all these so called rescues/hoarders/ animal lovers are at fault for advertising the dog aggressive dogs as furry people "who want to be the sole focus of attention", "who don't want to share the love with another dog", need careful introduction with your other dog(s)", "gets along well with certain dogs or with the other gender" etc,etc. It is getting hopeless here. More and more are imported from CA and end up back in the shelters. This discussion has brought my doubts about the Pits back to the surface and I am seriously considering not to take on Pits anymore (as a trainer) for aggression cases. My experience in that regard so far is that you cannot open owners' eyes to what they actually have.* Example from last year: a 6 month old Pit pup had attacked their 11 year old boy in the face and I was asked for help. The father hated the dog but the mom loved the dog to pieces. The boy was sitting there, teary eyed.* The pup was not socialized and afraid and barking and snarling at me. On leash he would try to bite me, jumping high towards my face and I had a heck of a time keeping him from biting me. Never seen that in all the 30 years of pet dog training. She asked me what I would do if it were my dog. I told them flat out that I would put him down. The father loved that answer. Guess what? The rumor started in my little town that I just tell people to kill their dogs if there are problems. Even the fancy, privately owned pet store does not refer anyone anymore. So far none of my advice for Pit owners has been taken seriously and I think people just want to hear that their dogs are fine. Thanks for the venting opportunity.



This! Since when is a Pit Bull or any dog more important than a one's bleeping child. This is not an isolated case.


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## Chip18

Not gonna do the multi quote thing cause after awhile it tends to look kinda combative and I "don't want to be perceived that way! 

But the Dog Park two things, not really to many fans of them here by and large and "I" am on the record here with that view ... lots of links as you might imagine! And yeah you would tend to find "bad dog" Pits running wild in the Dog Park because that is by and large where the "Brain Dead" take them! 

As I stated on the record here ...that was my goal with "my" Band Dog and he made it "Crystal Clear" to me that "we" were going to have a problem!! So "I" looked in the mirror and found solutions! 

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of these "bad" Pits" did not suddenly snap?? I don't believe that one of the genetic traits of the "Breed" is subtlety?? There were plenty of signs I'm sure! My dog can't be that unique, he made his intentions pretty clear to me?? (although he was a tri color )

Again the owners are fools! I don't care who they are, it was too much dog for them! And snapping a leash 5 times??? Come on that's a people problem not a dog problem! No dog snaps a leash on "me" 5 freaking times?? 

Ironically enough and with a slight twist on the quote I misconstrued as being from MAWL ... yes, yes it would appear that *" ...some people are indeed to freaking stupid to own dangerous dogs!"*maybe all that is required to eliminate the Pit problem is an IQ test for owners??? Just a thought.

And "wolfy dog" ...yeah you got screwed with that deal ... sorry!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> But the Dog Park two things, not really to many fans of them here by and large and "I" am on the record here with that view ... lots of links as you might imagine! And yeah you would tend to find "bad dog" Pits running wild in the Dog Park because that is by and large where the "Brain Dead" take them!
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of these "bad" Pits" did not suddenly snap?? I don't believe that one of the genetic traits of the "Breed" is subtlety?? There were plenty of signs I'm sure! My dog can't be that unique, he made his intentions pretty clear to me?? (although he was a tri color )


To clarify, I did not say dog park, I said park. 

Off topic, but color me Brain Dead, I advocate dog parks. As long as you remove your dogs from them when you spot toys, treats, or Pits, you and your dog should have a positive experience.

It appears if you follow the human maulings and fatalities, there does seem to be an apparent lack of warning. At least that is what owners, families and friends that were present observed, no warning signs. They can't all be wrong. I won't accept the old "slight flick of the ear" defense. It is not good enough.

And Tuesday, yesterday, another woman lost her life to her own dogs, an American Bulldog (a Pit Bull derivative), a Ridgeback, and a Lab mix (shelter code words for a Pit Bull mix). 

http://m.wsvn.com/article.html?hash...670/vicious-dog-attack-leaves-an-elderly-dead


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## llombardo

All I see in this thread is a bunch of negativity and breed bashing. For every bad pit bull there are hundreds if not thousands that are good. No one wants to acknowledge that they aren't all bad. There 78 million dogs in the USA and a very good number of those are pit bulls. About 1% of those have bitten of caused death. Whenever there is so many of one breed the numbers of bites is going to be higher, it will never be 0. Increase the number of any breed instead of the pit bull and you will see an increase in bites--guaranteed. No dog should ever be HA and there are no exceptions--GSDs or Dobes included. DA is not the same and any trainer will tell you a dog with DA is better managed then HA. I love my GSDs and they are loyal but I will say that every pit bull I have met is just as loyal if not more so to their owners. I can't even count how many pit bulls I have met in 40 years and I don't know of one that has ever bit, killed a dog/cat or killed anyone.


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## llombardo

It happens with other breeds and we don't hear about it because, well it's not a pit bull.

Woman, 71, attacked by dogs while waiting for bus in South Deering | abc7chicago.com

http://abc7.com/pets/4-year-old-attacked-by-dads-police-dog-in-hesperia/515232/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tore-chunk-nose-left-needing-50-stitches.html

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/05/07/neighbor-stopped-dog-but-too-late.html

http://www.orilliapacket.com/2014/08/27/dog-attack-victim-recovering-but-heartbroken


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## llombardo

llombardo said:


> It happens with other breeds and we don't hear about it because, well it's not a pit bull.
> 
> Woman, 71, attacked by dogs while waiting for bus in South Deering | abc7chicago.com
> 
> 4-year-old attacked by dad's police dog in Hesperia | abc7.com
> 
> Girl, 13, savaged by German shepherd puppy which tore chunk out of her nose and left her needing 50 stitches | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Neighbor stopped attack by family pet, but mauling proved fatal for woman | The Columbus Dispatch
> 
> Dog-attack victim recovering, but 'heartbroken' | Orillia Packet and Times


Boy, 3, left with horrific facial injuries as Labrador savages him at Poole Harbour | Daily Mail Online


----------



## llombardo

I'm not a fan of dog parks but I do take my female to a local one to swim. For the most part we play fetch but she LOVES pit bulls and boxers. There has never been a problem with pit bulls where I go, but there are issues with GSDs, Huskies and goldens(toy hoarders). I will not stay if a husky or GSD comes in.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Some people choose to perceive science, facts and statistics as being negative as they would also choose to perceive being presented with the truth as bashing a breed. Of course for the rest of us, that does not make it so.

Many breeds have been far more popular than Pit Bulls, many breeds and their derivatives are believed to be far more popular today, all without even remotely approaching the mauling and fatality statistics of the Pit Bull.

Many dog breeds should be and are human aggressive, like German Shepherds, it is in their breed standard, but that is a different topic that has been hashed out on other threads on here many times over. Just because one person does not like or want a human aggressive breed, then they should not argue the standard but choose a breed that is not bred to be HA. 

Most GSD experienced trainers will tell you that most GSDs are HA and that it is a desireable quality, not to mention the breed standard calls for it. I am sure most will gladly confirm that DA is a PITA. I never met a trainer beyond the ability of a Petco trainer that felt differently. Perhaps the experienced and qualified trainers on board could chime in here.

I never met a Pit Bull that has not attacked, mauled or killed, many of them with a long and repeated history.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Despite a woman losing her life yesterday by her pit type dogs, the lack of compassion, respect, but mostly the lack of acknowledgment of her death was expected as was the enthusiastic defense of her killers.

The dead woman is just ignored like her life meant nothing, but the Pit Bull is exalted as if nothing is more important.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> It happens with other breeds and we don't hear about it because, well it's not a pit bull.
> 
> Woman, 71, attacked by dogs while waiting for bus in South Deering | abc7chicago.com
> 
> 4-year-old attacked by dad's police dog in Hesperia | abc7.com
> 
> Girl, 13, savaged by German shepherd puppy which tore chunk out of her nose and left her needing 50 stitches | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Neighbor stopped attack by family pet, but mauling proved fatal for woman | The Columbus Dispatch
> 
> Dog-attack victim recovering, but 'heartbroken' | Orillia Packet and Times


Only the K9 one of these is from this year. It is hard to compare the approximately 20 plus human fatalities in 2015 with a smattering of old dog bites dating back to 2011. I find it very odd that you chose that particular K9 mauling because a friend of mine that is a retired state trooper K9 handler informed me that the K9 in question was a Mal/ Pit mix.


----------



## MadLab

> *None that I raised from a puppy would do that to me*


I still feel you haven't explained this quote at all. 

I think you know many behaviors are learned behaviors.

If not why would people worry about socialization, puppy imprinting, foundation training.

Real trainers are training a pup from 6-7 weeks. Why is that? 

I can teach my dogs to be aggressive if I want. I can teach them to be peaceful. Especially as they grow through adolescence. That is the time the dog is learning about his competition and possible mates. Thats when dog aggression can occur with many dogs regardless of breed.. 

I have quite clearly demonstrated to my dogs that aggression will be severely punished. And so the drive to do it is quashed by my rules and discipline.

It's pretty simple really. 

I know how to communicate with out force as well to stop fights developing or nipping interactions in the bud with verbal corrections to ensure no escalation. 

Anybody interested in dog behavior has to deal with aggression as it is a part of dog behavior. You can't sweep it under the carpet just because you bought a pedigree dog. You have to face dog behavior as it is not how one wishes it to be.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Some people choose to perceive science, facts and statistics as being negative as they would also choose to perceive being presented with the truth as bashing a breed. Of course for the rest of us, that does not make it so.
> 
> Many breeds have been far more popular than Pit Bulls, many breeds and their derivatives are believed to be far more popular today, all without even remotely approaching the mauling and fatality statistics of the Pit Bull.
> 
> Many dog breeds should be and are human aggressive, like German Shepherds, it is in their breed standard, but that is a different topic that has been hashed out on other threads on here many times over. Just because one person does not like or want a human aggressive breed, then they should not argue the standard but choose a breed that is not bred to be HA.
> 
> Most GSD experienced trainers will tell you that most GSDs are HA and that it is a desireable quality, not to mention the breed standard calls for it. I am sure most will gladly confirm that DA is a PITA. I never met a trainer beyond the ability of a Petco trainer that felt differently. Perhaps the experienced and qualified trainers on board could chime in here.
> 
> I never met a Pit Bull that has not attacked, mauled or killed, many of them with a long and repeated history.


And some people base everything they live and breath on statistics. Statistics which haven been proven to not be correct. You can't have statistics that are correct if the reporting isn't correct. Common math can tell you that if you simply take the number of dogs out there versus the bites, it is under 1%. Under 1% of the pit bull population has bitten. That is a super low number. You keep bypassing that though, don't you? You are so fixated on the bad ones you can't even acknowledge there are a LOT more good ones, why is that?

There are no breeds that can remotely touch or come close to the number of pit bulls out there. 

I have never met a trainer or a breeder that would say GSDs are bred to have HA, if that is the case the gsds are way worse then pit bulls bred for da, correct?
I would like to hear from some trainers on that one. 

It's a shame that you have never met a decent pit bull. I'm not sure who you associate with not to have. It's almost as if you go out of your way to meet the bad ones, you enjoy hearing stories of maulings for the sake of saying I told you so. Maybe you should research that aspect of it for a change.


----------



## gsdsar

Nowhere in any GSD standard does it call for HA. Nowhere.


----------



## llombardo

gsdsar said:


> Nowhere in any GSD standard does it call for HA. Nowhere.


Thank you. That would be a nightmare.


----------



## Stonevintage

Statistics are often shunned when the opposing side has none to support their position. They are important though. Everything we are offered in this world is based on demand that is backed by statistics. From cradle to grave - we are one of many.

Using tools such as the science of statistics are one of the things that separate us from the animal world. Animals are only able to base decisions on what is learned in their small world or by instinct. We know better than to only trust our immediate experience - statistics are vital. The experience of many is more valuable than the few.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> Statistics are often shunned when the opposing side has none to support their position. They are important though. Everything we are offered in this world is based on demand that is backed by statistics. From cradle to grave - we are one of many.
> 
> Using tools such as the science of statistics are one of the things that separate us from the animal world. Animals are only able to base decisions on what is learned in their small world or by instinct. We know better than to only trust our immediate experience - statistics are vital. The experience of many is more valuable than the few.


If statistics are flawed as pointed out in another thread, they are worthless. You can not get correct statistics if the info isn't correct to begin with. If you give me a study with 100 dogs of the same breed and break down cancers, bites or whatever it may be amongst those 100 dogs and the info is true, then yes those statistics are valuable.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> I still feel you haven't explained this quote at all.
> 
> I think you know many behaviors are learned behaviors.
> 
> If not why would people worry about socialization, puppy imprinting, foundation training.
> 
> Real trainers are training a pup from 6-7 weeks. Why is that?
> 
> I can teach my dogs to be aggressive if I want. I can teach them to be peaceful. Especially as they grow through adolescence. That is the time the dog is learning about his competition and possible mates. Thats when dog aggression can occur with many dogs regardless of breed..
> 
> I have quite clearly demonstrated to my dogs that aggression will be severely punished. And so the drive to do it is quashed by my rules and discipline.
> 
> It's pretty simple really.
> 
> I know how to communicate with out force as well to stop fights developing or nipping interactions in the bud with verbal corrections to ensure no escalation.
> 
> Anybody interested in dog behavior has to deal with aggression as it is a part of dog behavior. You can't sweep it under the carpet just because you bought a pedigree dog. You have to face dog behavior as it is not how one wishes it to be.


One more time, for me, regarding a dog I raised attacking, it is all about bonding, not training. 

Maybe other people in other countries start training puppies at 6-7 weeks, but in this one it is illegal to even sell puppies at that age.


----------



## newlie

Lombardo, when studies are done about various health problems that afflict certain breeds, do they only pick dogs of that breed that they know are pure bred? And I am not asking this question to be sarcastic, but because I don't know the answer...

I have always understood that a certain aloofness or reserve or even suspicion of strangers might be characteristic of German Shepherds, but that is all. My Newlie does not meet that standard , he is an anomaly. He is just right for me and I have no desire to change him, but neither would I want anyone to decide they want a German Shepherd based on the way Newlie is.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> And some people base everything they live and breath on statistics. Statistics which haven been proven to not be correct. You can't have statistics that are correct if the reporting isn't correct. Common math can tell you that if you simply take the number of dogs out there versus the bites, it is under 1%. Under 1% of the pit bull population has bitten. That is a super low number. You keep bypassing that though, don't you? You are so fixated on the bad ones you can't even acknowledge there are a LOT more good ones, why is that?
> 
> There are no breeds that can remotely touch or come close to the number of pit bulls out there.
> 
> I have never met a trainer or a breeder that would say GSDs are bred to have HA, if that is the case the gsds are way worse then pit bulls bred for da, correct?
> I would like to hear from some trainers on that one.
> 
> It's a shame that you have never met a decent pit bull. I'm not sure who you associate with not to have. It's almost as if you go out of your way to meet the bad ones, you enjoy hearing stories of maulings for the sake of saying I told you so. Maybe you should research that aspect of it for a change.


What's that? Sorry about the dead woman? That's what I thought...crickets still.

It is a bit difficult to be in error on stats regarding how many people have died by Pit Bulls. It is not hard to determine a breed based on visuals alone. I know a Collie when I see one and I would venture to say that most people following this thread can do the same. 

Common sense would tell one following this thread that this has NOTHING to do with dog bites but extreme maulings and fatalities. Please don't derail this topic, there is much to be said yet that is pertinent.

I am fixated on breeds of dogs responsible for extreme maulings and fatalities, while others play smoke and mirrors. Perhaps if that is of interest, a thread regarding other breeds and dog bites would be of benefit.

I am not sure what kind of trainers you meet, but HA is in the GSD breed standard and is to be expected. It has been a topic of many threads on here, perhaps a thread search might help? Or once again, maybe starting a separate thread so as not to derail this topic?

It is a shame that you have never met a real Pit Bull and have nothing to compare those shells of Pit Bulls.

Perhaps more time researching and less time suggesting how others should spend their time would be of benefit.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

gsdsar said:


> Nowhere in any GSD standard does it call for HA. Nowhere.


He must possess instinctive behavior, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog. 

How can a German Shepherd be suitable to guard and protect if it lacked human aggression? I don't think they can use pepper spray or tasers, but even if they could, without a modicum of human aggression, I doubt that they would.

Please explain how this could be possible.


----------



## counter

llombardo said:


> I'm not going to argue with you whether a dogs jaws dogs lock or not. I was on the ground face to face holding a 120 pound Rotts jaws open so he couldn't crush my pups head or take an eye out. I'm not a small person and it took everything I had in me to hold those jaws right where they were and they were as locked as could be. I couldn't pry them open or let go or my dog was dead. My body was sore for days afterwards. That dog wanted my pup dead.
> 
> This is one of the pictures of my pup before he went to the Emergency Vet. The bleeding wouldn't stop and there were a couple puncture wounds from the Rott grabbing him and one set that was pretty deep where he got ahold of him and wouldn't let go. My dogs head was in his whole mouth.


I have definitely read that there is no such thing as lock jaw. I also remember reading the studies on breeds with the most powerful jaws/bite force per square inch, of which Rotts came in #1 with GSDs #2. Not sure how factual this is, but the study and info is out there. I don't remember how far down the list Pitbulls were, but I think most people assume they are #1 when the study reveals otherwise. So you might've been dealing with the most powerful jaws known to dog, and not the mysterious and possibly mythological lock jaw.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> *Statistics are often shunned when the opposing side has none to support their position.* They are important though. Everything we are offered in this world is based on demand that is backed by statistics. From cradle to grave - we are one of many.
> 
> Using tools such as the science of statistics are one of the things that separate us from the animal world. Animals are only able to base decisions on what is learned in their small world or by instinct. We know better than to only trust our immediate experience - statistics are vital. The experience of many is more valuable than the few.


Nailed it! Notice the constant use of deflection of topic, breed, and even supplying links of mauling Pit mixes to support a stance of good Pit Bulls because it is not supported by statistics or other scientific date.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> Lombardo, when studies are done about various health problems that afflict certain breeds, do they only pick dogs of that breed that they know are pure bred? And I am not asking this question to be sarcastic, but because I don't know the answer...
> 
> *I have always understood that a certain aloofness or reserve or even suspicion of strangers might be characteristic of German Shepherds, but that is all. My Newlie does not meet that standard , he is an anomaly. He is just right for me and I have no desire to change him, but neither would I want anyone to decide they want a German Shepherd based on the way Newlie is*.


Newlie, sometimes your posts are gold.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> If statistics are flawed as pointed out in another thread, they are worthless. You can not get correct statistics if the info isn't correct to begin with. If you give me a study with 100 dogs of the same breed and break down cancers, bites or whatever it may be amongst those 100 dogs and the info is true, then yes those statistics are valuable.


Are you saying that if they did a health study on 1000 Golden Retrievers and were to later find out that one of the Golden's sire was questionable in regards to breed that this one aspect would null and void an entire study?


----------



## llombardo

counter said:


> I have definitely read that there is no such thing as lock jaw. I also remember reading the studies on breeds with the most powerful jaws/bite force per square inch, of which Rotts came in #1 with GSDs #2. Not sure how factual this is, but the study and info is out there. I don't remember how far down the list Pitbulls were, but I think most people assume they are #1 when the study reveals otherwise. So you might've been dealing with the most powerful jaws known to dog, and not the mysterious and possibly mythological lock jaw.


This could very well be true, nothing I did was getting those jaws open or to release. It was really really bad. I had no time to think, all I focused on was kerping that dog from crushing my pups head.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

counter said:


> I have definitely read that there is no such thing as lock jaw. I also remember reading the studies on breeds with the most powerful jaws/bite force per square inch, of which Rotts came in #1 with GSDs #2. Not sure how factual this is, but the study and info is out there. I don't remember how far down the list Pitbulls were, but I think most people assume they are #1 when the study reveals otherwise. So you might've been dealing with the most powerful jaws known to dog, and not the mysterious and possibly mythological lock jaw.


Locking jaws are a myth.


----------



## llombardo

newlie said:


> Lombardo, when studies are done about various health problems that afflict certain breeds, do they only pick dogs of that breed that they know are pure bred? And I am not asking this question to be sarcastic, but because I don't know the answer...
> 
> I have always understood that a certain aloofness or reserve or even suspicion of strangers might be characteristic of German Shepherds, but that is all. My Newlie does not meet that standard , he is an anomaly. He is just right for me and I have no desire to change him, but neither would I want anyone to decide they want a German Shepherd based on the way Newlie is.


As far as I believe, yes they do pick only pure breds of the specefic breeds they are looking at.


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> If statistics are flawed as pointed out in another thread, they are worthless. You can not get correct statistics if the info isn't correct to begin with. If you give me a study with 100 dogs of the same breed and break down cancers, bites or whatever it may be amongst those 100 dogs and the info is true, then yes those statistics are valuable.


When several sources all provide similar statistics, how are they proven to be inaccurate? By different sets of statistical data? Where are those numbers available? I cannot find them. I can't site statistical data as being flawed when the numbers come from so many different sources and there's simply nothing to contradict them. 

The site that I refer to most often (because they link reference and source sites) seems to gather information on all serious dog related deaths/attacks on humans. Our breed of choice is listed right there with the others. How could I say that all this information is flawed with the information that I, as an individual have? Why would I trust say, statistical data percentages on GSD's regarding genetic traits such as HD and disregard info on another breed's genetic traits?


----------



## Palydyn

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics. 

I have worked for the government for more years than I care to admit and can manipulate numbers and stats to prove or disprove anything. 

Example: Man orders a special burrito and says its the best burrito he has ever had, asks what the filling is made of. Clerk tells him horse and rabbit. Man asks but what is the ratio and clerk tells him 50/50. As the man walks away the clerk mutters to himself one horse one rabbit. 

While the 50/50 ratio is technically correct, it is deceiving. That's why beyond the statistics you need to see the raw data they used to get to those conclusions.


----------



## MadLab

Mine are working line says



> One more time, for me, regarding a dog I raised attacking, *it is all about bonding,* not training.


Oh so I see, it is not how they are raised, it is about developing a good bond. 

You see the benefits of bonding, so must you see the negative results of a lack of bonding. Can aggressive behavior be a result of a lack of bonding, lack of socialization, lack of discipline? 

I can't say I agree with you, You can do all the bonding you like, it is discipline which actually stops aggression. Too many rely on bonding with their fur baby, and thats where some problems stem from. 

I think bonding is a part of raising a dog. Others are exercise, discipline, bite inhibition, obedience, socialization. The list goes on. Responsible owners do a lot to ensure there dog raised right.


----------



## MadLab

Statistics can be used to scare people or they can be used to educate.

Here is a campaign trying to educate all dog owners on the importance of safe handling of dogs of all breeds especially aimed at educating children on how to interact with dogs. 

They believe 77% of dog bites/attacks happen a family or friends dog. 

To my mind, that suggests, 77% of dog bites are avoidable. 

The problem comes down to how people interact with their dogs and the lack of understanding that exists. We see issues here all the time that are easily avoided if someone knows what they are doing.

People don't see a dog as a possibly dangerous predator. They see it as a teddy bear and apply unreasonable rational or human psychology to trying to understand the dogs motivations, needs and desires. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDrhNBwdpk


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Mine are working line says
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so I see, it is not how they are raised, it is about developing a good bond.
> 
> You see the benefits of bonding, so must you see the negative results of a lack of bonding. Can aggressive behavior be a result of a lack of bonding, lack of socialization, lack of discipline?
> 
> I can't say I agree with you, You can do all the bonding you like, it is discipline which actually stops aggression. Too many rely on bonding with their fur baby, and thats where some problems stem from.
> 
> I think bonding is a part of raising a dog. Others are exercise, discipline, bite inhibition, obedience, socialization. The list goes on. Responsible owners do a lot to ensure there dog raised right.


I disagree. I have been told that police dogs need to be trained not to attack a police officer that is on the bottom of a scuffle. The same does not apply to dogs being trained in protection that were raised by the same person. I could be wrong, but that was conversation among K9 trainers at that time. Both types of dogs had discipline, it is bonding that made the difference.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Palydyn said:


> Mark Twain said there are three types of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics.
> 
> I have worked for the government for more years than I care to admit and can manipulate numbers and stats to prove or disprove anything.
> 
> Example: Man orders a special burrito and says its the best burrito he has ever had, asks what the filling is made of. Clerk tells him horse and rabbit. Man asks but what is the ratio and clerk tells him 50/50. As the man walks away the clerk mutters to himself one horse one rabbit.
> 
> While the 50/50 ratio is technically correct, it is deceiving. That's why beyond the statistics you need to see the raw data they used to get to those conclusions.


It is hard to manipulate a body count. There are just way too many people involved to fudge those numbers.


----------



## MadLab

Look at these statistics from wiki on dog deaths in the US from like the 1930's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

Prior to the year 2000 I see very little pit or bull or mastiff casualties

I see a plethora of breeds with high concentrations of GSD's and Rottweilers.

Fact is some GSD owners have there blinkers on when they look at statistics.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is hard to manipulate a body count. There are just way too many people involved to fudge those numbers.


But if every dog is a pit bull whether they are or not is listed as the breed, the numbers are not ever going to be right.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Mine are working line says
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so I see, it is not how they are raised, it is about developing a good bond.
> 
> You see the benefits of bonding, so must you see the negative results of a lack of bonding. Can aggressive behavior be a result of a lack of bonding, lack of socialization, lack of discipline?
> 
> I can't say I agree with you, You can do all the bonding you like, it is discipline which actually stops aggression. Too many rely on bonding with their fur baby, and thats where some problems stem from.
> 
> I think bonding is a part of raising a dog. Others are exercise, discipline, bite inhibition, obedience, socialization. The list goes on. Responsible owners do a lot to ensure there dog raised right.


You choose to negate the science of genetics. The burden of proof does not lie on me.

And please stop posting comments as if I said certain things that I did not and then expect me to defend it.


----------



## MadLab

> I could be wrong,


That is quite possible. If you were speaking from experience then you might know the answers but when you rely on cut and paste of other people opinions then you are bound to make mistakes delivering the information you want to propagate.


----------



## Stonevintage

MadLab said:


> People don't see a dog as a possibly dangerous predator. They see it as a teddy bear and apply unreasonable rational or human psychology to trying to understand the dogs motivations, needs and desires.
> 
> 
> I agree. I don't think any of the families that have suffered loss from these attacks ever dreamed it would happen. Would they have done differently if they had taken the time to look at some statistics? Maybe....
> 
> I don't understand - WHY - even those people who treat their dog like a fur baby - don't understand that as such, there are situations and things you would never expose your baby/child to because of the danger - yet they do with their dogs (they know do not have a mental capacity beyond what they deal with on a daily basis with a 3 or 4 year old child). Would they trust the lives of their family members to a 3 or 4 year old child's decisions?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Look at these statistics from wiki on dog deaths in the US from like the 1930's
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
> 
> Prior to the year 2000 I see very little pit or bull or mastiff casualties
> 
> I see a plethora of breeds with high concentrations of GSD's and Rottweilers.
> 
> Fact is some GSD owners have there blinkers on when they look at statistics.


Comparing 1-3 deaths per year from other breeds of dogs vs over 20 Pit Bull related fatalities alone this year only supports the dangers of the Pit Bulls.


----------



## MadLab

What the statistics show is much higher concentrations of deaths post 2000 due to pit bulls and mixes. That is because of the explosion of this breed.

Prior to that were killings and mauling distributed more evenly between dog breeds. But note GSD and Rotts featured highly.

Have the dogs changed or the owners?


----------



## MadLab

> Comparing 1-3 deaths per year from other breeds of dogs vs over 20 Pit Bull related fatalitie


There should be no fatalities regardless. You may not see 1-3 a year as significant but to those families it is devastating.

The 20 dog related deaths amount these days in the US is a total disgrace.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> But if every dog is a pit bull whether they are or not is listed as the breed, the numbers are not ever going to be right.


Does it really matter if Pit Bulls killed 21 people this year or 22? Or 15? or 30?

Most people would stop way before 10 people and say that's too much.

What is your number? When do you say that's too many? 

Is it more important that the stats are 100% accurate vs having a point or two margin of error or is stopping the killings? Which is your priority, accuracy or saving humans and pets from extreme maulings and death?


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Does it really matter if Pit Bulls killed 21 people this year or 22? Or 15? or 30?
> 
> Most people would stop way before 10 people and say that's too much.
> 
> What is your number? When do you say that's too many?
> 
> Is it more important that the stats are 100% accurate vs having a point or two margin of error or is stopping the killings? Which is your priority, accuracy or saving humans and pets from extreme maulings and death?


What is the number for you for GSDs, Rotts, and labs? It goes both ways. It's an issue if any breed kills one person. All I'm saying is that its not just pit bulls. I understand there is an issue, but I'm not blind, it's not only pit bulls that are an issue. If you want to condemn one breed for doing the same thing as other breeds, then condemn them all.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> That is quite possible. If you were speaking from experience then you might know the answers but when you rely on cut and paste of other people opinions then you are bound to make mistakes delivering the information you want to propagate.


Let me repeat for the second time in this thread, you don't know me, you don't know my experience, please stop pretending that you do and please stop making false accusations about me. I have not disrespected you, I ask for the same.

I copy and paste facts so that I may bring them to others, so they are pure and unadulterated. I like to think most people when presented with facts have the ability to make up their own minds. Not everybody will follow like sheep based on somebody else's opinion supported by wishful thinking. 

I would never be so presumptuous to lay claim to other peoples credentials and studies and pretend that they are mine. How deceitful is that?


----------



## wolfy dog

OK, to me there has been enough about Pits now. What about Akitas? Thankfully they are not popular. Haven't met one that wasn't DA. To me they fit the same category as Pits. The AKC doesn't care about temperament as you can witness in shows and just outside the show ring. Most Akita owners keep them away from other dogs on a very short line on a very sharp choker, blocking the other dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> MadLab said:
> 
> 
> 
> People don't see a dog as a possibly dangerous predator. They see it as a teddy bear and apply unreasonable rational or human psychology to trying to understand the dogs motivations, needs and desires.
> 
> 
> I agree. I don't think any of the families that have suffered loss from these attacks ever dreamed it would happen. Would they have done differently if they had taken the time to look at some statistics? Maybe....
> 
> I don't understand - WHY - even those people who treat their dog like a fur baby - don't understand that as such, there are situations and things you would never expose your baby/child to because of the danger - yet they do with their dogs (they know do not have a mental capacity beyond what they deal with on a daily basis with a 3 or 4 year old child). Would they trust the lives of their family members to a 3 or 4 year old child's decisions?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe much of this is a result of the phoney pictures the Pit Bull advocacy posts all over the internet.
> 
> Take a good look at all those pictures of Pit Bulls with babies. Those aren't real babies but realistic baby dolls. How misleading and dangerous is that?
Click to expand...


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let me repeat for the second time in this thread, you don't know me, you don't know my experience, please stop pretending that you do and please stop making false accusations about me. I have not disrespected you, I ask for the same.
> 
> I copy and paste facts so that I may bring them to others, so they are pure and unadulterated. I like to think most people when presented with facts have the ability to make up their own minds. Not everybody will follow like sheep based on somebody else's opinion supported by wishful thinking.
> 
> I would never be so presumptuous to lay claim to other peoples credentials and studies and pretend that they are mine. How deceitful is that?


But the facts you post are opinions of those that you chose to copy and paste from. They might be really educating but are they really facts or just strong opinions? Who determines that?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> What the statistics show is much higher concentrations of deaths post 2000 due to pit bulls and mixes. That is because of the explosion of this breed.
> 
> Prior to that were killings and mauling distributed more evenly between dog breeds. But note GSD and Rotts featured highly.
> 
> Have the dogs changed or the owners?


If the choices are one fatality per year by German Shepherd vs thirty per year by Pit Bull, does any of that matter? 

Does it really matter why Pit Bulls are killing more people than all other breeds combined or is it more important that it is happening? Which is the priorty? The fact that so many deaths by Pit Bulls are occurring or why the deaths are occurring?


----------



## newlie

I have a little trouble understanding why anyone would believe it's possible to breed for positive characteristics, but not negative.


----------



## llombardo

wolfy dog said:


> OK, to me there has been enough about Pits now. What about Akitas? Thankfully they are not popular. Haven't met one that wasn't DA. To me they fit the same category as Pits. The AKC doesn't care about temperament as you can witness in shows and just outside the show ring. Most Akita owners keep them away from other dogs on a very short line on a very sharp choker, blocking the other dog.


I would say they are in that DA group. That would only be based on the very few I have met or heard about.


----------



## Steve Strom

llombardo said:


> But the facts you post are opinions of those that you chose to copy and paste from. They might be really educating but are they really facts or just strong opinions? Who determines that?


Well, they're based on what the breed was developed and bred for. That's all factual, right?


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If the choices are one fatality per year by German Shepherd vs thirty per year by Pit Bull, does any of that matter?
> 
> Does it really matter why Pit Bulls are killing more people than all other breeds combined or is it more important that it is happening? Which is the priorty? The fact that so many deaths by Pit Bulls are occurring or why the deaths are occurring?


If the number of pit bulls out there decreases, your going to see the bites go down. I truly feel bad for those that have been bitten, mauled or killed by any dog, but if there are 20 deaths and 1 million of that breed I tend to think it's something to do with who owns them. 20 out of a million is a very small number. Should it exist at all? No, but we don't live in a perfect world. If that was the case dog bites and fatalities would not exist at all period.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> There should be no fatalities regardless. You may not see 1-3 a year as significant but to those families it is devastating.
> 
> The 20 dog related deaths amount these days in the US is a total disgrace.


No where did I say that 1-3 deaths a year by other breeds were not significant, nor do I dismiss 20 plus deaths a year based solely on breed.


----------



## llombardo

Steve Strom said:


> Well, they're based on what the breed was developed and bred for. That's all factual, right?


Which is DA and not HA.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

newlie said:


> I have a little trouble understanding why anyone would believe it's possible to breed for positive characteristics, but not negative.


Newlie, a Pit Bull without dog / animal aggression and game would be a mere shell of a Pit Bull. One can breed for a Pit Bull without these characteristics, but why? If you want a docile, easy dog that is human and animal friendly, there are dozens and dozens of breeds of dogs to choose from. Why change the very core essence of what a Pit Bull is? Why not create another breed? Tina Barber did when she wanted a bigger and more docile German Shepherd and created Shiloh Shepherds.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I would say they are in that DA group. That would only be based on the very few I have met or heard about.


Akitas are a Japanese dog fighting breed. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> To clarify, I did not say dog park, I said park.
> 
> Off topic, but color me Brain Dead, I advocate dog parks. As long as you remove your dogs from them when you spot toys, treats, or Pits, you and your dog should have a positive experience.


 Understood and yeah that is even worst (bad encounter.) In an open park "only" the best behaved dogs should be there! Rocky (GSD) has gone to "Dog Parks" for proofing, Dogs check him out then leave they seem to find him "boring" he doesn't play with strangers. 

He just follows me around. It's just easier to new folks to "just say no to "Dog Parks." 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> It appears if you follow the human maulings and fatalities, there does seem to be an apparent lack of warning. At least that is what owners, families and friends that were present observed, no warning signs. They can't all be wrong. I won't accept the old "slight flick of the ear" defense. It is not good enough.


 I don't doubt what they "observed" it takes skill and training and working with at the minimum dozens of "truly" aggressive dogs to be able to read them! But yet again ...back to basics! 

And (sigh) yet again now realizing the "truth" of these words "...not everyone, should "own" dangerous dogs! 

That stated ....every dog should be able to walk reliably off leash by his owner and should be able to "Recall," " Stay" or "Down," with distractions on or off leash and should respect a "NO!" All "minimum" requirements for my dogs. I would seriously doubt the dog in question could reliably perform any of those??

If a dog can't do those, then it should be on leash and or muzzled if out in public and or around one or anything it could harm, "problem solved!" People "don't" have the "right" to expose "others" to "their" problem! Pretty sure the owners of that dog had a "mirror" free household?? 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> And Tuesday, yesterday, another woman lost her life to her own dogs, an American Bulldog (a Pit Bull derivative), a Ridgeback, and a Lab mix (shelter code words for a Pit Bull mix).
> 
> http://m.wsvn.com/article.html?hash...670/vicious-dog-attack-leaves-an-elderly-dead


 Sigh ...yet again another of my "Dawgs"
in trouble!! A Johnson type ABD is also on my dogs to have list! Pretty sure that if it is a ABD?? It was a Scott type?? Hog catch dogs! So ....yeah! 

Two dogs are a pair three dogs are a pack! If dog number one is a ABD or a Ridgeback?? Then people best have there "crap" together before "stacking in "pack" members ...who could have seen trouble coming, oh yeah ....."me!" :crazy:

Non "combative" response ...yes???


----------



## counter

I have not researched and read the breed standard for every breed in the world, but from what I have read it seems that GSDs were bred from sheepherding dogs, thus the name Shepherd in the name. Sheepherding dogs primarily guarded flocks from other animals (predators, wolves, whatever), not humans, right? Dobermans were, at the time, the only breed I know of that was specifically bred to deter human attacks on Louis Dobermann as he walked the streets to collect taxes (carrying cash, an easy target) and as night watchman.

Here are the temperament portions from the breed standards for both breeds to compare, and I find it odd that Dobermans are allowed to be aggressive towards other dogs, as written right into the breed standard:



> *Temperament: *Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman. Shyness-A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree. Viciousness-A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handler, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.





> *Temperament: *The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> What is the number for you for GSDs, Rotts, and labs? It goes both ways. It's an issue if any breed kills one person. All I'm saying is that its not just pit bulls. I understand there is an issue, but I'm not blind, it's not only pit bulls that are an issue. If you want to condemn one breed for doing the same thing as other breeds, then condemn them all.


That's just it, it is ONE breed doing more than all other breeds combined. 

Stop the deaths by Pit Bulls and the fatality rate will drop anywhere from 50% to 75%, but it is better to quibble while children die.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> But the facts you post are opinions of those that you chose to copy and paste from. They might be really educating but are they really facts or just strong opinions? Who determines that?


The science of genetics is not an opinion.


----------



## Palydyn

Originally posted by MineAreWorkingline:

_



Its hard to manipulate a body count. There are just too many people involved to fudge those numbers

Click to expand...

_

Are you serious? We do it all the time. Just look at the Unemployment numbers hovering around 5.1% BUT, that doesn't count the almost 100,000 that have quit looking for work and dropped out of the job market. How do we know its only 100,000? How do we know they have stopped looking for work? We don't. We make assumptions that can be challenged but not disproved. 

I have no dog in this fight (no pun intended) so stop shooting the messenger. Have dog bites and deaths by dogs increased sure. But I am not going to hang my hat on a bunch of numbers without analyzing the underlying raw data. And if you want to blindly believe those numbers, I have several thousand gallons of land in Florida I can sell you.


----------



## jschrest

First, Akita's scared the crap out of me. It's the one breed I refused to take in. The are too large for me to handle, and are notorious for DA, and HA for anyone that is not their handler. I was brought one once, and said "nope, not going to happen, sorry, can't help you there." My biological dad owned 2. Every summer we were prevented from ever being anywhere near the dogs. They would growl and lunge and try to get to us if we walked past the sliding glass door. Scarred me for life against that breed . It may be an unfair, biased opinion on the breed, but still, no thanks!

As for pits, the "locking jaw" comes from them refusing to release once they have a lock on their target. Whether that is an adult, a child, another dog or animal, or a stuffed animal/toy. So while scientifically, their jaws do not lock, they lock them themselves by refusing to release their prey, even with severe pain being inflicted upon them to release. 

Pits are and have been bred for this from the beginning. To overlook that based on some that have never reacted or attacked is being negligent in my eyes. Any person who owes ANY breed needs to be made aware of the negative side of the breed, and be prepared to handle any situation arising from genetic instincts. It's the advocates and pit lovers that are making mistakes, not by caring about the breed and wanting them to be successful, but by outright lying, deceiving, and coercing the general public into believing these are myths and they are great loving family pets. Yes, some are, but why can't you advocate the breed in their true light? 

GSD are known for having high prey drive. You have to be more alert to that. GSD are prone to bitch on bitch aggression, you have to be aware of that. They are prone to be untrusting and wary of strangers, you have to be aware of that. I've never experienced another GSD owner droning on about the wonderful traits of the breed, and underplaying or outright lying about the negative aspects of the breed. 

If pit lovers could be honest, it would do the world a favor. They ARE capable of killing children, adults, animals. They are more prone to this type of behaviour than other breeds based on what they were bred for. Yes, all breeds are capable of this, but pits are more capable because of their breeding. 

You can take any puppy and raise it, train it, love it, and set it up for success. Pits included. But you can't turn a blind eye to the fact that they are more prone to turn than most other breeds. And people don't seem to have much of desire to breed these qualities out of their pits. Unless, of course, the wise people who breed a newer line of them, change their names to AmStaff's, and get pretty darn pissed when you call them pits


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Well, they're based on what the breed was developed and bred for. That's all factual, right?


Good point Steve but the problem is that you are talking to some people who believe that a dog is what you raise and train it. They don't believe that behavioral traits are genetic.

They think that every breeder on here produces puppies that could all excel in a fighting pit or be a police K9 based strictly on raising and training.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Akitas are a Japanese dog fighting breed. I am not sure what point you are trying to make.


I'm answering someone's question. My experience is that they are DA. Put chows on that list too.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> *If the number of pit bulls out there decreases, your going to see the bites go down.* I truly feel bad for those that have been bitten, mauled or killed by any dog, but if there are 20 deaths and 1 million of that breed I tend to think it's something to do with who owns them. 20 out of a million is a very small number. Should it exist at all? No, but we don't live in a perfect world. If that was the case dog bites and fatalities would not exist at all period.


There is merit to that point.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Which is DA and not HA.


I will agree that humans are more important than dogs or cats, but those lives matter too.

As previously discussed and documented in detail, no dog fighter ever culled a top contender in a fighting pit based on human aggression, those lines were used extensively in breeding. Perhaps searching back on this thread will answer most of your questions.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

counter said:


> I have not researched and read the breed standard for every breed in the world, but from what I have read it seems that GSDs were bred from sheepherding dogs, thus the name Shepherd in the name. Sheepherding dogs primarily guarded flocks from other animals (predators, wolves, whatever), not humans, right? Dobermans were, at the time, the only breed I know of that was specifically bred to deter human attacks on Louis Dobermann as he walked the streets to collect taxes (carrying cash, an easy target) and as night watchman.
> 
> Here are the temperament portions from the breed standards for both breeds to compare, and I find it odd that Dobermans are allowed to be aggressive towards other dogs, as written right into the breed standard:


German Shepherds were also used to guard the shepherd himself.

Those are the American standards, the German standards call for more.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Palydyn said:


> Originally posted by MineAreWorkingline:
> 
> [/I]
> 
> Are you serious? We do it all the time. Just look at the Unemployment numbers hovering around 5.1% BUT, that doesn't count the almost 100,000 that have quit looking for work and dropped out of the job market. How do we know its only 100,000? How do we know they have stopped looking for work? We don't. We make assumptions that can be challenged but not disproved.
> 
> I have no dog in this fight (no pun intended) so stop shooting the messenger. Have dog bites and deaths by dogs increased sure. But I am not going to hang my hat on a bunch of numbers without analyzing the underlying raw data. And if you want to blindly believe those numbers, I have several thousand gallons of land in Florida I can sell you.


I don't blindly believe anything but you can't hide or create dead bodies without somebody noticing.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I'm answering someone's question. My experience is that they are DA. Put chows on that list too.


I still don't understand your point.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I still don't understand your point.


I wasn't making a point so it's not meant for you to understand. I was stating an opinion based on experience with the question asked of that breed.


----------



## counter

MineAreWorkingline said:


> German Shepherds were also used to guard the shepherd himself.
> 
> Those are the American standards, the German standards call for more.


 Agreed, and I'll go look up the German standards next to see what I can find.

But my question then is this: "Guard the Shepherd from what?" Attacking hungry (possibly rabid) animals who are a threat to his flock or herd? Or human thieves trying to steal the Shepherd's animals? I will have to look that up too. Not sure the numbers on human threats vs animal/predator threats to flocks and herds. Good point! I enjoy learning more.


----------



## Palydyn

Originally posted by *MineAreWorkingline:*

_



I don't blindly believe anything but you can't hide or create dead bodies without somebody noticing.

Click to expand...

_Again, Are you serious? Perhaps you are too young to remember the inflated body counts in the Viet Nam War. But surely you have read the paper in the last week where the same thing is allegedly being done in the fight against ISIS. INFLATED BODY COUNTS means creating dead bodies. So how many gallons of land in Florida do you want?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

counter said:


> Agreed, and I'll go look up the German standards next to see what I can find.
> 
> But my question then is this: "Guard the Shepherd from what?" Attacking hungry (possibly rabid) animals who are a threat to his flock or herd? Or human thieves trying to steal the Shepherd's animals? I will have to look that up too. Not sure the numbers on human threats vs animal/predator threats to flocks and herds. Good point! I enjoy learning more.


The shepherds spent a lot of time in isolation out with the sheep, the GSD was meant to protect him as well.


----------



## counter

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The shepherds spent a lot of time in isolation out with the sheep, the GSD was meant to protect him as well.


Right! I get that. I know it was discussed up above about GSDs having HA as a part of their temperament to be better suited as guard dogs. So that's what I'm trying to determine. I'm on a work computer and a lot of websites with the SV standard (translated into English) are blocked. I'm still looking.

But I'm curious to know if the GSD was bred to protect the Shepherd from other humans, or just other animals/non-human potential threats. My dogs don't like any other animals for the most part, but they will approach other humans/strangers without issue. Only once did my Nara ever growl at a human and put her body between him and our young daughter, and I've always wondered if she could sense that he was a "bad man"!? So maybe that sense or canine understanding or whatever you want to call it is also there in GSDs: that they can tell good people from bad people and can go into "guard mode" like an on/off switch with little to no training or warning. I know that's been discussed here in other threads too. If HA has been bred into these dogs for ages as a subtle quality, then it might be instinctual and only utilized in the rarest of rare occasions, only when absolutely necessary for the dog to go into natural attack-to-defend mode.


----------



## counter

> *Character
> * The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong​ nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and​ (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive​ and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour,​ resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,​ guard, protection, service and herding dog.


 I found this labeled as the SV standard, but not sure. There's no temperament section, only "character." I guess that's the same.


----------



## Stonevintage

Palydyn said:


> Originally posted by *MineAreWorkingline:*
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Are you serious? Perhaps you are too young to remember the inflated body counts in the Viet Nam War. But surely you have read the paper in the last week where the same thing is allegedly being done in the fight against ISIS. INFLATED BODY COUNTS means creating dead bodies. So how many gallons of land in Florida do you want?


Believing that one source (a military or government) is giving you accurate facts can get you in trouble. Comparing one source with many others will keep the numbers more honest. Military body counts in a war zone are a bad comparison. This type of information on war deaths are part of the war effort itself -designed to psychologically affect moral.


----------



## Jenny720

Police do use german shepherds to take down man. They have to be capable of doing this physically and mentally. They would not have great success training labradors or beagles to do this.


----------



## CrackedGSD

i believe the "human aggression" that is being brought up is easier explained as a lack of fear of humans and a predisposition to fight or bite a human. many times you'll see it referred to as being "civil" which is definitely a trait of a german shepherd dog. human aggression is taking this to the next level and is really a misplaced or an incorrect reaction to a human but the natural aggression towards people should exist in the breed in order for the dog to stand up to an aggressing human.

many breeds will not stand up to pressure from a human, many people on here like to believe that their dogs will protect them from humans but without testing the actual dog, you'll never know how your dog will react to pressure from a human. most breeds will run away from humans and will never hurt them, when it comes to german shepherds, the expectation is that they will stand up to a human. if you understand how and why dogs came to be from their primitive ancestors, it's easy to see why this is actually a pretty rare characteristic in dogs.

much easier to also understand when you've worked various breeds in protection and understand where their aggression or "reason for biting" comes from in regards to the work. good examples of pitbulls are basically always working in prey, where as german shepherds will react to both prey and pressure. many pitbulls could not handle the type of pressure that is put on by a helper on even the weakest of shepherds.

the aggression you see from pit bulls is more than likely due to lack of good breeding, so bad genetics, or the way the dog was raised. a good representative of the breed would actually be fairly difficult to train as a protection or an attack dog because they shouldn't have that natural aggression towards humans.


----------



## counter

CrackedGSD said:


> i believe the "human aggression" that is being brought up is easier explained as a lack of fear of humans and a predisposition to fight or bite a human. many times you'll see it referred to as being "civil" which is definitely a trait of a german shepherd dog. human aggression is taking this to the next level and is really a misplaced or an incorrect reaction to a human but the natural aggression towards people should exist in the breed in order for the dog to stand up to an aggressing human.
> 
> many breeds will not stand up to pressure from a human, many people on here like to believe that their dogs will protect them from humans but without testing the actual dog, you'll never know how your dog will react to pressure from a human. most breeds will run away from humans and will never hurt them, when it comes to german shepherds, the expectation is that they will stand up to a human. if you understand how and why dogs came to be from their primitive ancestors, it's easy to see why this is actually a pretty rare characteristic in dogs.
> 
> much easier to also understand when you've worked various breeds in protection and understand where their aggression or "reason for biting" comes from in regards to the work. good examples of pitbulls are basically always working in prey, where as german shepherds will react to both prey and pressure. many pitbulls could not handle the type of pressure that is put on by a helper on even the weakest of shepherds.
> 
> the aggression you see from pit bulls is more than likely due to lack of good breeding, so bad genetics, or the way the dog was raised. a good representative of the breed would actually be fairly difficult to train as a protection or an attack dog because they shouldn't have that natural aggression towards humans.


Thank you for your detailed reply.

I guess I want to learn more about WHY our dogs are supposed to be better suited to handle the pressure and reaction you spoke of. Was there a reason that Max wanted his dogs to protect humans from humans? Dobermans have been around slightly longer than GSDs, and as I understand it, were the ONLY breed designed to protect humans from humans. All other "guarding" type dogs were meant to guard animals or property from other animals, never humans.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

CrackedGSD said:


> i believe the "human aggression" that is being brought up is easier explained as a lack of fear of humans and a predisposition to fight or bite a human. many times you'll see it referred to as being "civil" which is definitely a trait of a german shepherd dog. human aggression is taking this to the next level and is really a misplaced or an incorrect reaction to a human but the natural aggression towards people should exist in the breed in order for the dog to stand up to an aggressing human.
> 
> many breeds will not stand up to pressure from a human, many people on here like to believe that their dogs will protect them from humans but without testing the actual dog, you'll never know how your dog will react to pressure from a human. most breeds will run away from humans and will never hurt them, when it comes to german shepherds, the expectation is that they will stand up to a human. if you understand how and why dogs came to be from their primitive ancestors, it's easy to see why this is actually a pretty rare characteristic in dogs.
> 
> much easier to also understand when you've worked various breeds in protection and understand where their aggression or "reason for biting" comes from in regards to the work. good examples of pitbulls are basically always working in prey, where as german shepherds will react to both prey and pressure. many pitbulls could not handle the type of pressure that is put on by a helper on even the weakest of shepherds.
> 
> the aggression you see from pit bulls is more than likely due to lack of good breeding, so bad genetics, or the way the dog was raised. a good representative of the breed would actually be fairly difficult to train as a protection or an attack dog because they shouldn't have that natural aggression towards humans.


Thank you for clarifying, very well put.

The lack of human aggression in Pit Bull's is what gave rise to Joe Lucero's line of Bandogs. He told me that it was just too hard to get Pit Bulls to bite a human which led to the creation of his line.

On the other hand you have somebody like Diane Jessup who has titled Pit Bulls in Sch. This has been discussed on game forums and they are angered accusing her of breeding a Pit Bull that is more willing to challenge a human in order to perform well in the venue.


----------



## Palydyn

Originally posted by Stonevintage:
_



Believing that one source (a military or government) is giving you accurate facts can get you in trouble. Comparing one source with many others will keep the numbers more honest. Military body counts in a war zone are a bad comparison. This type of information on war deaths are part of the war effort itself - designed to psychologically affect moral

Click to expand...

The Center for Disease Control (CDC) does it all the time with statistics and numbers on infectious diseases, deaths (not war related) AND dog related fatalities. Perhaps you think that is a bad comparison too. I am not saying they are cooking the numbers although they might be depending on the situation. I have a relative who was a high ranking CDC official that left the CDC because it had become too political. 

Originally I just cautioned people to be careful about believing or using statistics without backup because they may not be totally accurate. Not pushing one side of the argument or the other. But I can see that I was wrong and that there are many here who have way more real live experience working in government than I do. And probably have Ph.D.'s in Advanced Statistics as well. So pardon me for trying to be rational. Mea culpa. It won't happen again. Think I will go for a swim. Pretty pedestrian for those of you who walk on water I know._


----------



## Jenny720

CrackedGSD said:


> i believe the "human aggression" that is being brought up is easier explained as a lack of fear of humans and a predisposition to fight or bite a human. many times you'll see it referred to as being "civil" which is definitely a trait of a german shepherd dog. human aggression is taking this to the next level and is really a misplaced or an incorrect reaction to a human but the natural aggression towards people should exist in the breed in order for the dog to stand up to an aggressing human.
> 
> many breeds will not stand up to pressure from a human, many people on here like to believe that their dogs will protect them from humans but without testing the actual dog, you'll never know how your dog will react to pressure from a human. most breeds will run away from humans and will never hurt them, when it comes to german shepherds, the expectation is that they will stand up to a human. if you understand how and why dogs came to be from their primitive ancestors, it's easy to see why this is actually a pretty rare characteristic in dogs.
> 
> much easier to also understand when you've worked various breeds in protection and understand where their aggression or "reason for biting" comes from in regards to the work. good examples of pitbulls are basically always working in prey, where as german shepherds will react to both prey and pressure. many pitbulls could not handle the type of pressure that is put on by a helper on even the weakest of shepherds.
> 
> the aggression you see from pit bulls is more than likely due to lack of good breeding, so bad genetics, or the way the dog was raised. a good representative of the breed would actually be fairly difficult to train as a protection or an attack dog because they shouldn't have that natural aggression towards humans.


This makes sense. As also i heard german shepherds are more resilient and not as affected to handler mistakes where pit bulls are not.


----------



## newlie

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Newlie, a Pit Bull without dog / animal aggression and game would be a mere shell of a Pit Bull. One can breed for a Pit Bull without these characteristics, but why? If you want a docile, easy dog that is human and animal friendly, there are dozens and dozens of breeds of dogs to choose from. Why change the very core essence of what a Pit Bull is? Why not create another breed? Tina Barber did when she wanted a bigger and more docile German Shepherd and created Shiloh Shepherds.


Actually, I felt that some of the responses were dismissing genetics entirely and putting any aberration down to the way the dog was raised. I was just saying that if you believe it's possible to breed for health reasons or sound temperament, why wouldn't you believe it was possible to breed for certain kinds of cancer or hip dysplasia. Why anybody would want to do that, I don't know, but I don't know why anyone would breed for aggression, either.


----------



## CrackedGSD

if you study the history of the breed you'll see that the need for herding dogs greatly decreased right around the time the german shepherd was created. max was a captain in the army and realized that there was a need for a working dog in that line of work. schutzhund, all 3 phases, started in 1901, so clearly there were other intended uses of the dog and breed.

pit bulls that are titled in schutzhund are trained in different methods than shepherds. there is a reason why pit bulls don't compete with the herding breeds on the highest levels of schutzhund. the way the titles are set up, and the "sport" part of it, makes it possible for almost any breed to be trained and titled if you understand how to present the exercises to the dog. it doesn't mean the dogs do it well, and that they do it for the "right" reasons.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

CrackedGSD said:


> if you study the history of the breed you'll see that the need for herding dogs greatly decreased right around the time the german shepherd was created. max was a captain in the army and realized that there was a need for a working dog in that line of work. schutzhund, all 3 phases, started in 1901, so clearly there were other intended uses of the dog and breed.
> 
> pit bulls that are titled in schutzhund are trained in different methods than shepherds. there is a reason why pit bulls don't compete with the herding breeds on the highest levels of schutzhund. the way the titles are set up, and the "sport" part of it, makes it possible for almost any breed to be trained and titled if you understand how to present the exercises to the dog. it doesn't mean the dogs do it well, and that they do it for the "right" reasons.


Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## Stonevintage

Part of my experience comes from working for Government for 15 years. Part, shared by my brother that worked for the DOD for 40 years. (Stealth tiles & military drone acoustics, dolphins - you name it - he wired them up). 

I rely on statistics that have multiple sources to make a decision along with personal experience. I owned a PB for 13 years. I was attacked by two PB's 3 years ago and it just happens that this one brother I mentioned was also attacked by two PB's about 14 years ago on our front porch (neighbor strays).

No walking on water here, just different exposure to information.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Only the K9 one of these is from this year. It is hard to compare the approximately 20 plus human fatalities in 2015 with a smattering of old dog bites dating back to 2011. I find it very odd that you chose that particular K9 mauling because a friend of mine that is a retired state trooper K9 handler informed me that the K9 in question was a Mal/ Pit mix.


 Yeah ...don't know but I gotta throw a flag on that call! A Mal/Pit mix??

That kinda flies in the face of the "whole importing dogs" and picking the best "genes" bit?? Maybe that is why the Military and LE is turning to the Mal's?? I don't know... not my thing.

But ... they spent "thousands" to train a Mal/Pit cross?? That strikes me as unlikely?? 

I always "assumed" that LE had the best trained best behaved dogs in public out there?? A "Pro" on here in another thread informed "us" that is not necessarily the case!

*"Just "because" someone is a dog "handler" does not automatically,mean they know crap about "dogs."*That's "my interpretation" of what he said to be clear. I like to keep it real, as it were.

According to the report on the "Mal/Pitt???" Stated policy was "for the dog to be "supervised" at all times." (Again according to that report) clearly that did not happen. The dog was outside free in the yard and the officers child entered the yard. In violation of "stated" policy! 

Happened again here ...another Pit mix maybe???

Police Dog Jumps Fence and Attacks Child - NBC News

In any case the same "solution" would have prevented these situations if the "handlers/care takers" had followed "stated" policy.

"Don't leave the K9's "unsupervised!" Old stories or not the K9's in question are "still" gone. The taxpayers are still out fully trained working dog.

Same "solutions"as the "Pit Problem" it would seem "still" apply!

Some *"people"* should not* "own"* dangerous dogs."

Or as I put it ...."look in the "mirror" for a solution to you dog "problem."


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You choose to negate the science of genetics. The burden of proof does not lie on me.
> 
> And please stop posting comments as if I said certain things that I did not and then expect me to defend it.


Hey??? I got caught in that trap!! I think your doing much better in that regard!


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## Chip18

newlie said:


> I have always understood that a certain aloofness or reserve or even suspicion of strangers might be characteristic of German Shepherds, but that is all.


 Well you did better than me as a newbie GSD owner! I had no idea??

Mine was just a big furry 7 month old rescue with a (for me) funny face. WL OS GSD ... I did not know that either! But what I did "notice" was that when we had company over for the first time months later ...he made it "Crystal Clear" to me that he was not a fan of "drop ins!!" 

Base on my prior experience with Pit's and Boxer's "this" HA was new to me??? But having full access to mirrors in our home! I was able to find solutions ... "problem" solved! 

But folks here tell me "they" are not all like my dog, I'll take them at there word. GSD's such as your?? I "read" here they exist?? I have never met one in real life but they must be out there. 



newlie said:


> My Newlie does not meet that standard , he is an anomaly. He is just right for me and I have no desire to change him, but neither would I want anyone to decide they want a German Shepherd based on the way Newlie is.


 I guess I have come to the same conclusion myself!


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## Chip18

wolfy dog said:


> OK, to me there has been enough about Pits now. What about


 That one is easy ...not a dog for fools!


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## Galathiel

Just remember that anecdotal evidence does not equal empirical evidence. Also, know that citing dogsbite.org doesn't lend credence to any argument. It's a very controversial website with a skewed agenda. 

And spamming post after post with a single cite on it is still just listing other people's opinions. And it's annoying.


----------



## Chip18

jschrest said:


> First, Akita's scared the crap out of me. It's the one breed I refused to take in. The are too large for me to handle, and are notorious for DA, and HA for anyone that is not their handler. I was brought one once, and said "nope, not going to happen, sorry, can't help you there." My biological dad owned 2. Every summer we were prevented from ever being anywhere near the dogs. They would growl and lunge and try to get to us if we walked past the sliding glass door. Scarred me for life against that breed . It may be an unfair, biased opinion on the breed, but still, no thanks!
> 
> As for pits, the "locking jaw" comes from them refusing to release once they have a lock on their target. Whether that is an adult, a child, another dog or animal, or a stuffed animal/toy. So while scientifically, their jaws do not lock, they lock them themselves by refusing to release their prey, even with severe pain being inflicted upon them to release.
> 
> Pits are and have been bred for this from the beginning. To overlook that based on some that have never reacted or attacked is being negligent in my eyes. Any person who owes ANY breed needs to be made aware of the negative side of the breed, and be prepared to handle any situation arising from genetic instincts. It's the advocates and pit lovers that are making mistakes, not by caring about the breed and wanting them to be successful, but by outright lying, deceiving, and coercing the general public into believing these are myths and they are great loving family pets. Yes, some are, but why can't you advocate the breed in their true light?
> 
> GSD are known for having high prey drive. You have to be more alert to that. GSD are prone to bitch on bitch aggression, you have to be aware of that. They are prone to be untrusting and wary of strangers, you have to be aware of that. I've never experienced another GSD owner droning on about the wonderful traits of the breed, and underplaying or outright lying about the negative aspects of the breed.
> 
> If pit lovers could be honest, it would do the world a favor. They ARE capable of killing children, adults, animals. They are more prone to this type of behaviour than other breeds based on what they were bred for. Yes, all breeds are capable of this, but pits are more capable because of their breeding.
> 
> You can take any puppy and raise it, train it, love it, and set it up for success. Pits included. But you can't turn a blind eye to the fact that they are more prone to turn than most other breeds. And people don't seem to have much of desire to breed these qualities out of their pits. Unless, of course, the wise people who breed a newer line of them, change their names to AmStaff's, and get pretty darn pissed when you call them pits


 Luv it all!


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## llombardo

Galathiel said:


> Just remember that anecdotal evidence does not equal empirical evidence. Also, know that citing dogsbite.org doesn't lend credence to any argument. It's a very controversial website with a skewed agenda.
> 
> And spamming post after post with a single cite on it is still just listing other people's opinions. And it's annoying.


Hey I'm going to try this...every report I read states this about the police dog mauling the kid. I guess if some people copy and paste its a fact and when others post something it's not because some people heard something else

"Detective Michael Mastaler and Jango, a 7-year-old Belgium Malinois, have been partners about two years, De Anda said, working on patrol, narcotics and SWAT. Jango is one of four Rialto K-9s."


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## wolfy dog

Today's first: I turned down a request from a young mother's Pit who is DA. But "the dog is awesome with her 3 month old baby and her 3 year old daughter" Eeeeeeek! Of course it was a rescue, a Pit mix (with Pointer because of the pots on its legs) and luckily it has started to build muscle as proof of how well things are going. I warned her because of her kids but there was no Aha Erlebnis happening.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Yeah ...don't know but I gotta throw a flag on that call! A Mal/Pit mix??
> 
> That kinda flies in the face of the "whole importing dogs" and picking the best "genes" bit?? Maybe that is why the Military and LE is turning to the Mal's?? I don't know... not my thing.
> 
> But ... they spent "thousands" to train a Mal/Pit cross?? That strikes me as unlikely??
> 
> I always "assumed" that LE had the best trained best behaved dogs in public out there?? A "Pro" on here in another thread informed "us" that is not necessarily the case!
> 
> *"Just "because" someone is a dog "handler" does not automatically,mean they know crap about "dogs."*That's "my interpretation" of what he said to be clear. I like to keep it real, as it were.
> 
> According to the report on the "Mal/Pitt???" Stated policy was "for the dog to be "supervised" at all times." (Again according to that report) clearly that did not happen. The dog was outside free in the yard and the officers child entered the yard. In violation of "stated" policy!
> 
> Happened again here ...another Pit mix maybe???
> 
> Police Dog Jumps Fence and Attacks Child - NBC News


Well, Chipp, first off it was not me that linked to the Pit / Mal mix that mauled a child as an example that not all Pit Bulls or their mixes are bad, that would be Llombardo. Shoot the correct messenger!

I really don't have stats on how many police K9s are purchased in the US and how many are imported. Nor do I have access to the number of police K9s that are Dutchies, Mals or either of those breeds mixed with Pit, but it certainly is not unheard of. 

Some people state that a Dutchie is nothing but a Mal of a different color. If you take the time to click on that link and take a good look at that "Mal" in the story, it is clear that it is mixed. If you look at the Dutchie's in this attached link: http://www.workingdutchies.com/males.html, even Madlab concurs that there is a probability of Pit mix as evidenced by his thread on Dutchies: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/333378-dutch-shepherd.html and his copied and pasted comment: 

"Just wondering what people think of the Dutch Shepherd

Some say they are related to the Malinois. I heard one rumor that it was related to Pit Bulls. Just looking at this breeder in Australia and I'm thinkin, yeah, they do look they have a bit of pit bull in them. What do you think any ways.

http://www.workingdutchies.com/males.html

Especially check the last 2 dogs. They look a bit more muscular than shepherds to me. Also some of the brindle dogs look really nice and compact dogs. Are there any historical pictures of short haired brindle shepherd dogs around or anyone think this is a modern invention. 

Does Holland have any flocks of sheep to herd?"

Do your own comparison, look at the Mal / Pit mix that mauled and then take a good look at the Dutchie / Pit mixes. See any similarities?

or from another poster on that thread:

09-11-2013, 09:41 AM #20 (permalink)
Chip Blasiole
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Botetourt, VA
Posts: 218
Default
IMO, the KNPV (non FCI) Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are some of the best working lines available. I believe in the past they have incorporated Pit Bull and Great Dane into some bloodlines. The pedigrees are not always accurate, but if you know the breeder or someone who deals with them importing dogs, they can probably tell you the true pedigree of the dog. I think these dogs are similar to what the GSD was originally, and if you compare their working ability and health problems now days, you can easily see how the popularity of the GSD has contributed to its decline. Originally, brindle was a coat color of the GSD.

Thanks MadLab for the copy and paste! I wonder if this copy and paste will be questioned.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Galathiel said:


> Just remember that anecdotal evidence does not equal empirical evidence. Also, know that citing dogsbite.org doesn't lend credence to any argument. It's a very controversial website with a skewed agenda.
> 
> And spamming post after post with a single cite on it is still just listing other people's opinions. And it's annoying.


What is controversial about it?

Not defending dogsbite.org, but I would like to clarify that it is an ALL breed dog site, and I am very anti all dangerous dog breed laws and I tend to stay away from the site unless needing information on dog bite related fatalities.

If you believe that the site is skewed, please select any one item of your choice on the site that is skewed or false and inform the rest of us. Seriously, I am very open minded and eager to learn.

Regarding spamming post after post with a single cite, who is doing that and where? Did I miss something?


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## Stonevintage

I understand that. There are reference disclosures and links though out their postings that information to other sites. As with anything else - you need to look around to find other viable sources of information. Do they create statistics themselves or are they just a gathering source? I haven't really looked at their political stuff. 

LOL - I never know where my search on a certain topic will take me. Often, it is to other countries that are dealing with a same type issue - to see how they deal with it. With this topic - it was Toronto and Berlin (with a little Maryland - legal standing of breed). That's the beauty of a wide variety of sources to draw from.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hey??? I got caught in that trap!! I think your doing much better in that regard!


That's a pretty low tactic, isn't it?


----------



## Chip18

CrackedGSD said:


> if you study the history of the breed you'll see that the need for herding dogs greatly decreased right around the time the german shepherd was created. max was a captain in the army and realized that there was a need for a working dog in that line of work. schutzhund, all 3 phases, started in 1901, so clearly there were other intended uses of the dog and breed.
> 
> pit bulls that are titled in schutzhund are trained in different methods than shepherds. there is a reason why pit bulls don't compete with the herding breeds on the highest levels of schutzhund. the way the titles are set up, and the "sport" part of it, makes it possible for almost any breed to be trained and titled if you understand how to present the exercises to the dog. it doesn't mean the dogs do it well, and that they do it for the "right" reasons.


 Thanks for the info. And sorry I dropped the "American Bullies" in here kinda sorta thought they were relevant??

And "The Bullies" well save for Euro Boxers, in IPO? As I understand it only people that want to make a point would do that??

By and large those guys can't make it to the highest level in Sport Dog stuff. As I understand it.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, Chipp, first off it was not me that linked to the Pit / Mal mix that mauled a child as an example that not all Pit Bulls or their mixes are bad, that would be Llombardo. Shoot the correct messenger!












Yet again "failed" to heed my own advise!! I'm much to wise for me?? 

I know nothing of Dutchies, I know members here have them and they have said most people they encounter with there dog are "clueless" as to what it is.

They are not very common I would assume??


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## wolfy dog

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/1/?u...=safe&realattid=1513136577612638984-local1&zw
This is the Pit X Pointer mix as labeled by the rescue. Sad.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's a pretty low tactic, isn't it?


 Hmm??? A misstep on my part?? Not really sure what I did??

But "sorry" in any case ...no disrespect intended!


----------



## llombardo

Chip18 said:


> Yet again "failed" to heed my own advise!! I'm much to wise for me??
> 
> I know nothing of Dutchies, I know members here have them and they have said most people they encounter with there dog are "clueless" as to what it is.
> 
> They are not very common I would assume??


Oh Chip you didn't fail. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere does it say that dog is anything but a Belgian Mal. He was not destroyed and will be transferred to another department. Police departments, especially the bigger ones are not going to waste their time or money on a mixed Mal.


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## Chip18

wolfy dog said:


> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/1/?u...=safe&realattid=1513136577612638984-local1&zw
> This is the Pit X Pointer mix as labeled by the rescue. Sad.


Link not working for me???


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## wolfy dog

Chip18 said:


> Link not working for me???


 Works for me


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## jschrest

Link doesn't work for me either, takes me to gmail to create an account


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## llombardo

wolfy dog said:


> Works for me


It didn't work for me either. It takes me to a gmail page for mail or something.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmm??? A misstep on my part?? Not really sure what I did??
> 
> But "sorry" in any case ...no disrespect intended!


No, not you Chipp, it was about your comment pointing out somebody else's tactic to deflect.


----------



## Chip18

llombardo said:


> Oh Chip you didn't fail. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere does it say that dog is anything but a Belgian Mal.





llombardo said:


> He was not destroyed and will be transferred to another department.


Well that is good to know! 



llombardo said:


> Police departments, especially the bigger ones are not going to waste their time or money on a mixed Mal.


That's what I would have thought. 

My take away from the LE K9"s gone wrong thing?" Is pretty much ... "blame the handler!" Some members of LE can't even follow "my" basic SOP ... "keep people out of your dog's face!"

"I" don't find that to hard to do myself ... but hey I'm not a Pro!


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, not you Chipp, it was about your comment pointing out somebody else's tactic to deflect.


Ok cool! For a change I'm on the other end of the linking, to other site's thing! But I got's no problem with it! 

I was going to look at "Joe Lucero's info" on American Bandog's (hmm every body spell's (Band Dawg) differently??) but now the Dutchies came up. :crazy:

Did you say you spoke to Joe Lucero???


----------



## Chip18

jschrest said:


> Link doesn't work for me either, takes me to gmail to create an account


OK not me, I have a Gmail account and it said I needed to log in??

I "feel" my OS is wrong and I should not have to, I should already be linked.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Ok cool! For a change I'm on the other end of the linking, to other site's thing! But I got's no problem with it!
> 
> I was going to look at "Joe Lucero's info" on American Bandog's (hmm every body spell's (Band Dawg) differently??) but now the Dutchies came up. :crazy:
> 
> Did you say you spoke to Joe Lucero???


Yes, sir. I had opportunity to have a few conversations with him. I could be wrong but he sold his kennel out and is now retired, not sure.


----------



## Stonevintage

Perhaps some day. There will be a split with this breed and issues causing the problems will be bred out of the lines to produce a more stable dog. Anything is possible if enough people want it.....


----------



## jschrest

That is one of the most unattractive dogs I have ever seen, and that includes the creepy hairless ones


----------



## wolfy dog

Photoshopped Dachshund? And they took the trouble to crop her ears?


----------



## Stonevintage

wolfy dog said:


> Photoshopped Dachshund? And they took the trouble to crop her ears?


It's real. Lots of video and Interviews by the humane society that had Rami up for adoption. Their adoption website got 2.2 million views. Just search Pitbull Doxi cross to view them.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> It's real. Lots of video and Interviews by the humane society that had Rami up for adoption. Their adoption website got 2.2 million views. Just search Pitbull Doxi cross to view them.


 Odd ....that one also looks strange to me, also??

Looks like they are out there already and the "specs" are influx?? I saw one and save for color it's head did not look as odd as that one??

It appeared to have "zero" dog aggression?? Rocky and I stood outside it's fence and it stood there calmly wagging his tail and smiling, while his Sheltie housemates was going "freaking insane!" The Sheltie was barking and jumping and throwing an empty garage can around in the yard! In short behaving like a total fool!

In contrast the "whatever" it is just stood there and smiled at Rocky and I paying no attention whatsoever to his "nutty" housemate's nutty behaviour!!

I was quite impressed by him and he was actually a rather handsome, if short and long dog! 

I would doubt those dogs will be making any "bad" headlines?? Pit's and their variations ... the "madness" continues unabated!


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, sir. I had opportunity to have a few conversations with him. I could be wrong but he sold his kennel out and is now retired, not sure.


I'm jealous!


----------



## Chip18

jschrest said:


> That is one of the most unattractive dogs I have ever seen, and that includes the creepy hairless ones


 .... I got nothing!


----------



## selzer

The pitbull/dachsund cross is an abomination. I'm sorry, but whoever thought that was a good idea needs, uh, uhm, yeah, I better just stop while I am ahead.

Pits and their mixes might include some dogs that are similar but not the same, but GSDs have been in that boat too. If its ears stand up and it bit someone, they call it a German Shepherd Dog. Mals, Dutch Shepherds, huskies, malamutes, akitas, and all those derivatives that were deliberately crossed to make a larger dog. And lets not forget hybrids. German shepherds, all of them when they bite someone. It's not like we don't have enough GSDs in the world to be in a world of trouble without any help from mis-identification. And STILL, we don't come close to the damage that the pits due.


----------



## Stonevintage

A few GSD mixes also got hit with the ugly stick. Just say no to crossing Shar-Pai GSD.


----------



## selzer

These look like something out of a Stephan King/Peter Straub novel. The makings of nightmares for sure.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> A few GSD mixes also got hit with the ugly stick. Just say no to crossing Shar-Pai GSD.
> View attachment 319690
> 
> 
> View attachment 319698





selzer said:


> The pitbull/dachsund cross is an abomination. I'm sorry, but whoever thought that was a good idea needs, uh, uhm, yeah, I better just stop while I am ahead.


 Aww man I brought out the first "mutant freak" dog and now "it's" on?? Maybe we should go for a new "term" hmm how about .... "aesthetically challenged??" 

But honestly the Dashhound/APBT cross "I" saw was actually pretty cool looking!

It failed my minimum requirement in a dog. They need to have "real" legs! 

But other than that ...it was pretty cool looking ... OK, once the shock subsided!


----------



## Chip18

Hmmm I gotta post this but I have to post a explicit language warning!!! Next to him ...I'ma not so bad! And it is "pertinent to the discussion!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4EvoxoxWYg


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm I gotta post this but I have to post a explicit language warning!!! Next to him ...I'ma not so bad! And it is "pertinent to the discussion!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4EvoxoxWYg


Can't buy that one. There is too much wrong with it. How can a person own and rescue Pit Bulls and not know what a Pit Bull is? My Czech/WG WL GSD has a huge blocky head, he is not a Pit Bull nor is he a pit bull type. Why do people preach such nonsense?

JL was very clear and adamant on what defines a Pit Bull. Who would know better? And it aligns with my comments, and it should, as he confirmed the definition that I already knew so I quote him.


----------



## jschrest

Yeah, that guy wasn't well versed in his video. I understand it was a rant, but he sounded very uneducated about the breed he is supposedly knowledgeable about. He didn't help any cause, it seems to be the opposite.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can't buy that one. There is too much wrong with it. How can a person own and rescue Pit Bulls and not know what a Pit Bull is? My Czech/WG WL GSD has a huge blocky head, he is not a Pit Bull nor is he a pit bull type. Why do people preach such nonsense?
> 
> JL was very clear and adamant on what defines a Pit Bull. Who would know better? And it aligns with my comments, and it should, as he confirmed the definition that I already knew so I quote him.





jschrest said:


> Yeah, that guy wasn't well versed in his video. I understand it was a rant, but he sounded very uneducated about the breed he is supposedly knowledgeable about. He didn't help any cause, it seems to be the opposite.


I'm thinking "Fair and Balanced" is not really his thing??


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> I'm thinking "Fair and Balanced" is not really his thing??


I am thinking he needs to touch base with reality. That video was more than a bit out there.


----------



## Mikelia

The comment that every picture of pit bulls with babies is actually a doll is ridiculous. You honestly hate the breed that much that you will go to every length to try to disprove anything positive about them? I really don't want to attack any one person, but I just can't believe how someone can go to such lengths to be so negative about a living creature. It really is no different than the over-the-top advocates that will go to any length to disprove anything negative about the breed.
There has been some very good information in this thread. Some very good discussion. I would love to have endless time to find credible sources that disprove some of these statistics. Everything I have to say about the population vs bites has been said. All I have left to say is that research is always done to prove a point. Statistics that 'show' anything were created to prove the point the researcher felt was right. Whether their point is right is up for debate. I'm not articulating this well but I hope everyone understands what I mean. 
When this thread started, I wanted to try and not get personal, not have everything I say about one dog. But since some seem to think there is not one pit bull out there is suited to family life, not one pit bull will never 'turn', not one pit bull who has never been aggressive no matter how they're raised, I just have to give my own personal experiences with the breed.
I have 20 years experience with bully breeds. For a few years I worked for a rescue that specialized in pit bulls. I am a dog trainer specializing in aggression. I ran training classes for years. I have worked pet retail (in low income, pit bull filled areas) for 15 years. I have trained, housed, fitted dog coats/boots/muzzles you name it to so so so many dogs over the years. And because I love the breed, I seek them out and have worked with a large number of pit bull type dogs. Just want to verify that I have known a lot of 'pit bulls' before I share my thoughts on the breed. 
My pit bulls name is Sweetie, the rescue re named her that and had her listed as a lab x boxer. She was sent by that rescue to the rescue that I worked at. I consider her a lovely example of an American pit bull terrier. I adopted her when she was around two years old. She had a bite history and was severely animal aggressive. She bit a man in one of her previous foster homes. She went through five foster homes, no one could handle her. Her original owner had owned a bong shop, got busted for drugs and the dog was seized. She was a typical 'pit bull', no training, the little training she had had been done with a very heavy hand, and all she really knew was how to play tug of war. Tug of war master she was, you could NOT get her to let go of anything. Let loose in a room she was across the coffee table, tip over the futon, on the kitchen counter, like seriously, wild dog. I give you this information to paint a picture that this dog was NOT raised well and had been encouraged to act like a 'pit bull' for the first two years of her life. She's a little 45lb brindle bitch with white toes and a white snip on her nose if it helps you image it better. 
So of course I fall in love with her and bring her home. She was my only dog at the time, but I did have four cats and I lived in a one bedroom apartment, on the eight floor of an apartment building. She had a rude awakening with me. I treated her no different than I would have ANY other breed of dog. I did not trust her with other animals so she was muzzled. The first thing she learned was how to drop it, the second was that aggression is NOT tolerated. She received plenty of vigorous exercise, appropriate outlets for her love of tug and a lot of socialization. The exact same treatment I would give to any dangerous dog that I work with.
It took a good year but this dog has been the most amazing dog I have ever had. She is not without her faults, and I wish I had raised her from a puppy. She is a canine good neighbour (CGC down south). While in my care she had never attacked a person, attacked any animal member of her family, every shown one iota of unwarranted aggression in the home. We do not meet unknown dogs on leash, and I will happily admit that because many dogs are not good at meeting dogs on leash. And it's not that she's bad, it's that she's a rescue dog with a history of animal aggression and I don't particularly think dogs need to meet on leash. Again, NO different than any other breed. About a year into owning her I did have a young beagle come flying up into her face and she grabbed it. It wasn't pretty but I got her off and no damage was done to the beagle aside from a scrape on its nose. I do have many dogs that come through my home whether they be grooming dogs, fosters, friends dogs or boarding dogs. She has many, many friends, but I will admit she is prone to going over threshold in the presence of a small yappy dog freaking at her from five feet away. This is completely under control and she will not react to that dog, but I also choose not to let her meet dogs like that. Is that not unreasonable for any breed? So many people come to this forum seeking help because they can only walk their gsds at 3am, on north facing streets, only when it's not a full moon or else their dog goes nuts barking and lunging at everyone. But because my pit bull (who I did not raise) has a slight issue of getting overly stimulated in the presence of out of control little anklebiters, she is automatic proof that all pit bulls have a bad side and will eventually turn or attack something previously beloved to them?
They are dogs. Dogs with genetic tendencies not suited to all homes. German shepherds are also dogs with genetic tendencies not suited to all homes. Chihuahuas, yep you guessed it, are also dogs. Dogs that might not do well in homes not suited for their genetic tendencies. Yes pit bulls bite and hold and were bred to do so. Yes, they are prone to animal aggression. But they are still dogs, dogs that need appropriate homes, proper training, good exercise. They are not some super demons created by man to search and destroy and eventually explode and kill someone. 
What do you think would happen if the population of mals equalled that of todays pit bull? If the population of mal breeders were similar to that of todays pit bull? Why do you think dog people were freaking out about that recent movie (I didn't see it, but saw an awful lot of outcry about it), fearing a surge in mal population? Because that breed of dog is not genetically suited to all homes. Argue me all you want that it would be different, they aren't pit bulls, they are shepherds, they are sweet and handler focused and obedient. Bred erratically, owned by whomever, being the choice breed for the scumbags, representing the highest shelter incoming breed in the country. Mals like to bite, they hold, often have threshold issues, have high pain tolerance. No, it wouldn't be exactly the same as our present pit bull problem, but it still wouldn't be pretty. Imagine if pit bulls were what mals are right now. They would primarily be owned by competent people who understand and respect the breeds needs. They would be relatively few and far between and you would probably never hear much about them. I guess I try to see it differently, take all of the nasty things you hear and try to remember they are still a dog, and what would happen if this was any other breed. 
Wow, I've written a book. I could go on forever I think lol. 
In response to the call out for proof knowledge on real life, actual pit bulls who have never been aggressive come on out to my place. I have lots of room and, if you can stay for a week or so, I can introduce you to many, many pit bulls just like that. Normal family dogs, living their whole lives as ...dogs. I could also find you a few that somewhat fit your description of what a pit bull is, and I can tell you why the dog is what it is, and what needs to be done to stop it. And, of all the pit bulls I know, I can even find you one who is not right in the head. I have the scars to prove that one too. But she lives a relatively normal life with minimal management, and she's an old lady now and hasn't killed anyone yet. 
So that's my rant for now. This thread really goes fast, and with the little time I have for the internet, it's hard for me to keep up. It took me two days just to get caught up this time lol. 
A little story and what's been keeping me from this thread: last week my beloved, CGC/TEC/certified therapy dog six year old ******* of a german shepherd tried to kill my pit bull. She's an old lady now at 12-15 years old and he just one night decided to attack her (no, not out of the blue, he's been a bit of a dink herding her for a while, I didn't think he'd ever try to take her out though, she raised him). I heard it start through a door, he growled and then she screamed and he was attacking her. He had her by her leg, shaking her. He is well trained and let go as soon as he was told to, but that's beyond the point. She did not fight back in the least. She hasn't been able to walk since and the bone is now infected. I truly thought she was going to die two nights ago. She is on painkillers and heavy antibiotics and is feeling better tonight so I am soooo thankful but she's not out of the woods yet in the least. Because of the breed she is, she doesn't care, doesn't hold a grudge and acts the same as she ever has, so that's good. I am obviously very mad at my male, but have to realize he is a dog and has instincts and sometimes we don't fully understand how deep some of those instincts can go. He is a great dog with a full head of screws, not unstable in the least, I can take this dog anywhere off leash and he listens to my every command. But at the end of the day he is still a dog. 
Please enjoy some pictures of my pit bull who, believe it or not, has never turned on me or any member of my family - four or two legged. And I assure you none of these photos are photoshopped or fake in any way.


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## MineAreWorkingline

If were to post pictures of Pit Bulls doing what too many do best, either admin would ban me or shut this thread down and remove the pictures, but I can link to them.

Warning: Graphic, real pictures of Pit Bull victims.

LiveLeak.com - ***GRAPHIC*** THE FACES OF PITBULL ATTACKS***

Do Pit Bull advocates really hate victims so much? I really can't see how any one person can dismiss Pit Bull victims as if they weren't living creatures.

Research is always done to prove a point? Silly me, I always research things to learn about things, be it the prevalence of hip dysplasia in a breed or expected behavior of specific breeds or why the geese fly south in the winter. I would never have given it a thought that all the people that come here looking for help, such as whether to breed their dog or if a specific kennel is reputable, were actually here to prove a point. 

Statistics are never done to prove a point unless those backing or gathering the statistics are practicing to deceive. Statistics is the science of learning from data, one can't manipulate them to prove a point unless one a.) has a horse in the race and b.) already has an idea of what the statistics will determine. For those of more honorable intentions, statistics are a method of collecting and calculating date to present an HONEST picture of where things actually stand, i.e., reality.

It was stated earlier that one person's first Pit Bull encounter was when a Pit Bull horrifically mauled their beloved, pet cat in front of the entire neighborhood. Nothing any child should ever have to witness, let alone an adult. That person now admits to their current Pit Bull having a bite history and being animal aggressive. Enough said, my point is documented once more.

Notice the technique of deflecting to another breed, i.e., Mals. Apparently Mals are owned by people who acknowledge what they are and take appropriate actions to manage and control to ensure public safety. Mals are not the ones in the lime light making a name for themselves or filling our shelters. I don't see campaigns, shelters, rescues and advocacys pushing Mals as good family pets no different than any other dog, that would be irresponsible. After the smoke clears, please note that after throwing first Mals under the bus, next was their own elderly German Shepherd. I find it pitiful that a dog fight breaks out in another room behind a door and a Pit Bull could not possibly be the instigator. I personally don't believe that the German Shepherd started this fight. Any further comments go on to mirror what myself and others have been saying from the beginning. Dogs are their genetics whose traits can be molded and shaped in how they are expressed, but not changed.

In response to the call out for proof of knowledge on real life, actual Pit Bulls who are extremely animal aggressive or some that are human aggressive. I have a huge home and you can stay as long as you want, but I can't guarantee your safety on the other side of my fence. I can guarantee you will leave with first hand experience of dangerous Pit Bulls and depending on how dangerous you choose to live, a first hand encounter with a Pit Bull that wants to take you or your dog down. There is actually one street that I won't even drive down in my car due to a couple of dangerous, ill-contained Pit Bulls. Local AC spends a lot of time with them. They just keep paying their fines and keep endangering a community. I will show you dozens of Pit Bulls erroneously kept as normal family pets and you will be aghast at the dangers those owners expose the people of their neighborhoods.

Thanks for providing evidence of yet another dangerous Pit Bull!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Just a few few weeks ago, you can't just show nice pitty pics, that would not be balanced.

Graphic!

Victims Of Dog Mauling May Have To Undergo Rabies Treatment : Johnston County Report


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## llombardo

Mikelia said:


> The comment that every picture of pit bulls with babies is actually a doll is ridiculous. You honestly hate the breed that much that you will go to every length to try to disprove anything positive about them? I really don't want to attack any one person, but I just can't believe how someone can go to such lengths to be so negative about a living creature. It really is no different than the over-the-top advocates that will go to any length to disprove anything negative about the breed.
> There has been some very good information in this thread. Some very good discussion. I would love to have endless time to find credible sources that disprove some of these statistics. Everything I have to say about the population vs bites has been said. All I have left to say is that research is always done to prove a point. Statistics that 'show' anything were created to prove the point the researcher felt was right. Whether their point is right is up for debate. I'm not articulating this well but I hope everyone understands what I mean.
> When this thread started, I wanted to try and not get personal, not have everything I say about one dog. But since some seem to think there is not one pit bull out there is suited to family life, not one pit bull will never 'turn', not one pit bull who has never been aggressive no matter how they're raised, I just have to give my own personal experiences with the breed.
> I have 20 years experience with bully breeds. For a few years I worked for a rescue that specialized in pit bulls. I am a dog trainer specializing in aggression. I ran training classes for years. I have worked pet retail (in low income, pit bull filled areas) for 15 years. I have trained, housed, fitted dog coats/boots/muzzles you name it to so so so many dogs over the years. And because I love the breed, I seek them out and have worked with a large number of pit bull type dogs. Just want to verify that I have known a lot of 'pit bulls' before I share my thoughts on the breed.
> My pit bulls name is Sweetie, the rescue re named her that and had her listed as a lab x boxer. She was sent by that rescue to the rescue that I worked at. I consider her a lovely example of an American pit bull terrier. I adopted her when she was around two years old. She had a bite history and was severely animal aggressive. She bit a man in one of her previous foster homes. She went through five foster homes, no one could handle her. Her original owner had owned a bong shop, got busted for drugs and the dog was seized. She was a typical 'pit bull', no training, the little training she had had been done with a very heavy hand, and all she really knew was how to play tug of war. Tug of war master she was, you could NOT get her to let go of anything. Let loose in a room she was across the coffee table, tip over the futon, on the kitchen counter, like seriously, wild dog. I give you this information to paint a picture that this dog was NOT raised well and had been encouraged to act like a 'pit bull' for the first two years of her life. She's a little 45lb brindle bitch with white toes and a white snip on her nose if it helps you image it better.
> So of course I fall in love with her and bring her home. She was my only dog at the time, but I did have four cats and I lived in a one bedroom apartment, on the eight floor of an apartment building. She had a rude awakening with me. I treated her no different than I would have ANY other breed of dog. I did not trust her with other animals so she was muzzled. The first thing she learned was how to drop it, the second was that aggression is NOT tolerated. She received plenty of vigorous exercise, appropriate outlets for her love of tug and a lot of socialization. The exact same treatment I would give to any dangerous dog that I work with.
> It took a good year but this dog has been the most amazing dog I have ever had. She is not without her faults, and I wish I had raised her from a puppy. She is a canine good neighbour (CGC down south). While in my care she had never attacked a person, attacked any animal member of her family, every shown one iota of unwarranted aggression in the home. We do not meet unknown dogs on leash, and I will happily admit that because many dogs are not good at meeting dogs on leash. And it's not that she's bad, it's that she's a rescue dog with a history of animal aggression and I don't particularly think dogs need to meet on leash. Again, NO different than any other breed. About a year into owning her I did have a young beagle come flying up into her face and she grabbed it. It wasn't pretty but I got her off and no damage was done to the beagle aside from a scrape on its nose. I do have many dogs that come through my home whether they be grooming dogs, fosters, friends dogs or boarding dogs. She has many, many friends, but I will admit she is prone to going over threshold in the presence of a small yappy dog freaking at her from five feet away. This is completely under control and she will not react to that dog, but I also choose not to let her meet dogs like that. Is that not unreasonable for any breed? So many people come to this forum seeking help because they can only walk their gsds at 3am, on north facing streets, only when it's not a full moon or else their dog goes nuts barking and lunging at everyone. But because my pit bull (who I did not raise) has a slight issue of getting overly stimulated in the presence of out of control little anklebiters, she is automatic proof that all pit bulls have a bad side and will eventually turn or attack something previously beloved to them?
> They are dogs. Dogs with genetic tendencies not suited to all homes. German shepherds are also dogs with genetic tendencies not suited to all homes. Chihuahuas, yep you guessed it, are also dogs. Dogs that might not do well in homes not suited for their genetic tendencies. Yes pit bulls bite and hold and were bred to do so. Yes, they are prone to animal aggression. But they are still dogs, dogs that need appropriate homes, proper training, good exercise. They are not some super demons created by man to search and destroy and eventually explode and kill someone.
> What do you think would happen if the population of mals equalled that of todays pit bull? If the population of mal breeders were similar to that of todays pit bull? Why do you think dog people were freaking out about that recent movie (I didn't see it, but saw an awful lot of outcry about it), fearing a surge in mal population? Because that breed of dog is not genetically suited to all homes. Argue me all you want that it would be different, they aren't pit bulls, they are shepherds, they are sweet and handler focused and obedient. Bred erratically, owned by whomever, being the choice breed for the scumbags, representing the highest shelter incoming breed in the country. Mals like to bite, they hold, often have threshold issues, have high pain tolerance. No, it wouldn't be exactly the same as our present pit bull problem, but it still wouldn't be pretty. Imagine if pit bulls were what mals are right now. They would primarily be owned by competent people who understand and respect the breeds needs. They would be relatively few and far between and you would probably never hear much about them. I guess I try to see it differently, take all of the nasty things you hear and try to remember they are still a dog, and what would happen if this was any other breed.
> Wow, I've written a book. I could go on forever I think lol.
> In response to the call out for proof knowledge on real life, actual pit bulls who have never been aggressive come on out to my place. I have lots of room and, if you can stay for a week or so, I can introduce you to many, many pit bulls just like that. Normal family dogs, living their whole lives as ...dogs. I could also find you a few that somewhat fit your description of what a pit bull is, and I can tell you why the dog is what it is, and what needs to be done to stop it. And, of all the pit bulls I know, I can even find you one who is not right in the head. I have the scars to prove that one too. But she lives a relatively normal life with minimal management, and she's an old lady now and hasn't killed anyone yet.
> So that's my rant for now. This thread really goes fast, and with the little time I have for the internet, it's hard for me to keep up. It took me two days just to get caught up this time lol.
> A little story and what's been keeping me from this thread: last week my beloved, CGC/TEC/certified therapy dog six year old ******* of a german shepherd tried to kill my pit bull. She's an old lady now at 12-15 years old and he just one night decided to attack her (no, not out of the blue, he's been a bit of a dink herding her for a while, I didn't think he'd ever try to take her out though, she raised him). I heard it start through a door, he growled and then she screamed and he was attacking her. He had her by her leg, shaking her. He is well trained and let go as soon as he was told to, but that's beyond the point. She did not fight back in the least. She hasn't been able to walk since and the bone is now infected. I truly thought she was going to die two nights ago. She is on painkillers and heavy antibiotics and is feeling better tonight so I am soooo thankful but she's not out of the woods yet in the least. Because of the breed she is, she doesn't care, doesn't hold a grudge and acts the same as she ever has, so that's good. I am obviously very mad at my male, but have to realize he is a dog and has instincts and sometimes we don't fully understand how deep some of those instincts can go. He is a great dog with a full head of screws, not unstable in the least, I can take this dog anywhere off leash and he listens to my every command. But at the end of the day he is still a dog.
> Please enjoy some pictures of my pit bull who, believe it or not, has never turned on me or any member of my family - four or two legged. And I assure you none of these photos are photoshopped or fake in any way.


Thank you for this post. I hope one day down the road I can work with the breed. I believe the same as you. Your girl is beautiful and I hope she heals soon!! Thank you for being open minded and seeing them for what they can be and what most of them are

Please note I had to take a food break before I finished


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## MineAreWorkingline

Is it just me or has anybody else noticed how nobody can bring themselves to offer condolences for the woman or to the family that lost her a couple of days ago to the family pet pit bull type breeds?


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## Chip18

Hmmm well as it happens .... my story with Rocky and Gunther aka American Band Dawg "is on the record here." And since I have owned both both Bullys and GSD's my experience is ....


I still have the use of my left hand today "because" of Gunther's training, temperament and solid nerve! First stitches in my life were "because" of my GSD not my American Band Dawg or Boxer/Pit's. 

In breaking up a fight caused by yet again, my GSD attacking Gunther. Who never once started an incident despite repeated attacks!

I screwed up trying to separate them and my left hand landed in Gunther's mouths, I felt the tips of his teeth start to close on my hand! And then "despite" 116 lbs of OS WL GSD on his back ... he did not clamp down! The instant he knew it was me he stopped! And the stitches?? I got those when f trying to pry Rocky's jaws open, my "GSD "took advantage of my well trained "ABD" when I said "Down!" Gunther immediately complied ,Rocky ...not so much! 

Maybe had Gunther, been a BullMastiff/GSD/Lab instead of BullMastiff/APBT/lab I "would" have lost my hand??? I have no idea?? 

But that is what "I" can do with Bully breeds and that's why I got sucker punched by my GSD! Different breed different "characteristic" "samething" I always did ... got different results! 

And after the fights were resolved ... "I" had, HA "issues" with my GSD but that was "my" issue to deal with, not someone else's!

And ...my GSD and how he turned out...that story is on here also and we're "more" than good! 

So that being said, the MAL's and GSD's thrown under the bus??? Unfortunately for their "victims" their handlers "apparently" weren't as diligent as me!! Those GSD's and MAL's are in this thread for the same reason as most Pit's are ...there "owners" were fools!

No doubt the "dangers" of the breed are being "understated" but for many "Bully" owners going beyond that "fact" ... "Is a Bridge to Far!"


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## Chip18

Mikelia said:


> A little story and what's been keeping me from this thread: last week my beloved, CGC/TEC/certified therapy dog six year old ******* of a german shepherd tried to kill my pit bull.


 Hmm just saw this, been there done that got the stitches!

I won't play that crap again! Best advice use a muzzle if they have to be together, otherwise crate and rotate! 

Lou says the fastest easiest and most humane way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E collar! 

Me .... in as much as my next GSD won't have Wobblers he'd find out were quickly that a Slip lead leash has multiple uses! That will must likely "fix" it maybe a blend of SLL and page 197 of the KMODT??

I got "sandbagged once! Won't happen again!! Sorry for your girls pain and sorry for the "mini" rant ...."flashback" kinda thing."


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## MadLab

Mine are WL said,


> Just a few few weeks ago, you can't just show nice pitty pics, that would not be balanced.
> 
> Graphic!
> 
> Victims Of Dog Mauling May Have To Undergo Rabies Treatment : Johnston County Report


Does it achieve anything to post graphic images of dog mauling. I think we know how bad it is, but i'm hoping you don't get off on it. 

Maybe I can start posting vids of GSD attacking people and pics of the damage done. But I have absolutely no point to prove and I find it sick. 



> Is it just me or has anybody else noticed how nobody can bring themselves to offer condolences for the woman or to the family that lost her a couple of days ago to the family pet pit bull type breeds?


Do you post condolences to people you don't know on a web forum they are not linked to? I don't think so. Anyways remain fixated.


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## Mikelia

I guarantee you 100% the gsd started the fight. If it makes you feel better, my other male gsd is a rescue, and started many fights when he first came home and I watched everyone one of them start, with him as the instigator. I watched him attack my pit bull (she was much younger then) and I watched her fight back. I also watched her 'aus' him the moment she was told and I watched her do what I have trained her to, which is to stand back while I deal with the problem. She has never left a mark on these dogs. She does not instigate these fights. If she started them, I guarantee you she would finish them. Think what you want, she did NOT start that fight. 
I feel for the victims of all attacks. But I also feel for the breed because when it is a pit bull, any attack hurts the breed as a whole. Shall I introduce you to the Chesapeake bay retriever I recently had here as a foster? Thank god she has a good breeder who took her back but that one was scary dog, with a looooooong bite history. Or the family pet English bulldog who was owned by a friend of mine who tore her arm apart? I won't post those photos here as they are too graphic. More graphic than most pit bull mauling pictures I've witnessed. Or the tons of other breed dogs I have worked with who have bite histories and animal aggression tendencies? Look at this forum, so many gsds who have bitten, who can't be around strangers, who are animal aggressive. In the 10 years I've owned my pit bull she was not bitten a thing, she has no bite history with me beyond the first year I've owned her. She has lived with up to 11 cats at one time, she's raised four puppies. I sometimes foster dogs who have no other option, who are too aggressive for anyone else to handle. She hasn't attacked any of them either. 
And for the record, I never made a call out for unstable pits, I've seen them, I've worked with them, just as I've seen unstable breeds of other dogs. They may be banned here but they are here in abundance and I can also take you through some pretty sketchy neighbourhoods with pathetic pit bull type dogs lunging on chains, locked in backyards or warehouses or basements. I can let you meet a guy who keeps bringing them up from the states, to have animal control eventually take them. His dogs are screwed and very dangerous, because he encourages them to be that way. There is not much sadder thing for me to see a beautiful pit bull in a cage at a shelter for nine months while his owner is in trial, dog is miserable, no one can get near it and when it finally is able to be released from it's demons they have to sedate it with a laced cheeseburger. And then he goes and gets another dog and the process starts over again. At the same time I will show you a whole host of unstable gsds kept in the same conditions. My local shelter euthanizes way more gsds than pit bulls, especially since the ban has taken effect. It breaks my heart to see them too, most recently three beautiful gsd mixes from two different homes of idiot people who encouraged them to be aggressive. Those dogs were screwed, and this is just within the last two weeks. 
I have said all I have to say. You obviously cannot accept the fact that pit bull type dogs can be decent pets in the right home. You cannot possibly believe that a pit bull might not start a fight, even though I have no reason to lie. All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite. And just because a dog has a bite history and is animal (or human) aggressive does not make it a pit bull.


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## Mikelia

I got thinking that I've made it sounds like an awful lot of fighting goes on at my place and just want to assure everyone that is not the case. I have a pack of five dogs that I treat as a pack. There are certain problems you expect to arise when you keep a houseful of large, potentially dangerous breeds. Sweetie had her issues when she came home, the rescue gsd had his when he came home but we are all through that. I have not had a fight in my home for many years now, until my other gsd tried to take out my pit bull last week. And again I say, the pit bull has never, ever been the instigator (aside from when she first came home and wanted to kill my cats) and she has always let me finish the fights.


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## llombardo

Mikelia said:


> My local shelter euthanizes way more gsds than pit bulls, especially since the ban has taken effect. It breaks my heart to see them too, most recently three beautiful gsd mixes from two different homes of idiot people who encouraged them to be aggressive.


And this is exactly what will happen anywhere that a ban is in effect. Pit Bulls are dying daily and in doing so they are giving other breeds a chance. It's just a sad situation for all of them(dogs of all breeds).


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## Jenny720

Mikelia said:


> I guarantee you 100% the gsd started the fight. If it makes you feel better, my other male gsd is a rescue, and started many fights when he first came home and I watched everyone one of them start, with him as the instigator. I watched him attack my pit bull (she was much younger then) and I watched her fight back. I also watched her 'aus' him the moment she was told and I watched her do what I have trained her to, which is to stand back while I deal with the problem. She has never left a mark on these dogs. She does not instigate these fights. If she started them, I guarantee you she would finish them. Think what you want, she did NOT start that fight.
> I feel for the victims of all attacks. But I also feel for the breed because when it is a pit bull, any attack hurts the breed as a whole. Shall I introduce you to the Chesapeake bay retriever I recently had here as a foster? Thank god she has a good breeder who took her back but that one was scary dog, with a looooooong bite history. Or the family pet English bulldog who was owned by a friend of mine who tore her arm apart? I won't post those photos here as they are too graphic. More graphic than most pit bull mauling pictures I've witnessed. Or the tons of other breed dogs I have worked with who have bite histories and animal aggression tendencies? Look at this forum, so many gsds who have bitten, who can't be around strangers, who are animal aggressive. In the 10 years I've owned my pit bull she was not bitten a thing, she has no bite history with me beyond the first year I've owned her. She has lived with up to 11 cats at one time, she's raised four puppies. I sometimes foster dogs who have no other option, who are too aggressive for anyone else to handle. She hasn't attacked any of them either.
> And for the record, I never made a call out for unstable pits, I've seen them, I've worked with them, just as I've seen unstable breeds of other dogs. They may be banned here but they are here in abundance and I can also take you through some pretty sketchy neighbourhoods with pathetic pit bull type dogs lunging on chains, locked in backyards or warehouses or basements. I can let you meet a guy who keeps bringing them up from the states, to have animal control eventually take them. His dogs are screwed and very dangerous, because he encourages them to be that way. There is not much sadder thing for me to see a beautiful pit bull in a cage at a shelter for nine months while his owner is in trial, dog is miserable, no one can get near it and when it finally is able to be released from it's demons they have to sedate it with a laced cheeseburger. And then he goes and gets another dog and the process starts over again. At the same time I will show you a whole host of unstable gsds kept in the same conditions. My local shelter euthanizes way more gsds than pit bulls, especially since the ban has taken effect. It breaks my heart to see them too, most recently three beautiful gsd mixes from two different homes of idiot people who encouraged them to be aggressive. Those dogs were screwed, and this is just within the last two weeks.
> I have said all I have to say. You obviously cannot accept the fact that pit bull type dogs can be decent pets in the right home. You cannot possibly believe that a pit bull might not start a fight, even though I have no reason to lie. All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite. And just because a dog has a bite history and is animal (or human) aggressive does not make it a pit bull.


Thank you I enjoyed your pictures! Your dogs are very lucky they have a great home. It is unfortunate so many are not lucky and go unprotected and have to suffer the ills of their owners.


----------



## Stonevintage

My GSD is DA. If an encounter with a stray PB were to occur, it is likely that she would make the first aggressive move. No argument there. It is the damage incurred and the difficulty breaking up the fight that is a huge problem.

This topic has been swaying back and forth. It looks as though many can say, "yes, there is a problem with the PB breeds (HA & DA) and then there seems to be a lull in the discussions. Then, someone brings a GSD into the conversation and people sway and say "Yes, I've witnessed an attack by GSD or I got bit trying to break up a fight". ...... Stop... because that is where the similarity ends... 

A GSD can certainly start a fight. A PB will start fighting in situations that would not provoke a GSD. Back to square one _BECAUSE THEY ARE BRED TO BE FIGHTING DOGS. _ The seriousness and duration of an attack in a dog bred to fight is more severe and prolonged. There is no off switch because they were bred not to have one. 

Elderly, feeble dogs may be attacked and killed in a pack. That is a known among several breeds. It is for a purpose (as cruel as that seems to people). When you raise a "pack" of dogs in a human environment where the weak and elderly do survive - it brings stresses on the pack that are not natural. One or all pack members may "gang up" on the weak member in an attempt to drive it away from the pack. If it cannot leave - they will kill it. Elderly dogs need protection from this instinct. 

Fighting within a pack over dominance, food or other issues should not be compared with dogs bred to fight. The reasons are different, there is no dominant/submissive resolution - in the fighting dog's mind, the only thing that needs resolution is who dies.


----------



## MishkasMom

@ *Mikelia*, great posts, I've been trying to stay away from this thread because I know once started it would turn into Bully Breed bashing (not all but most) I've known many PB's where I live (Quebec, Canada) they are not banned here and *the ones I know* are family pets, great friendly dogs that have been playing with my kids, my dogs some for more than 10 years and of course it's easy to post pictures of Pits attacks and the damage they cause, but the only time I was present during a dog attack on a human was a couple years ago in a Home Depot store in Ottawa, when a Shih-Tzu bit off a woman's nose. Anyhow thank you for telling your story and posting pictures, _Sweetie is beautiful _

_Edit: No I don't own a PBT, but would definitely consider one if I ever decided to have a second dog._


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Mine are WL said,
> 
> Does it achieve anything to post graphic images of dog mauling. I think we know how bad it is, but i'm hoping you don't get off on it.
> 
> Maybe I can start posting vids of GSD attacking people and pics of the damage done. But I have absolutely no point to prove and I find it sick.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you post condolences to people you don't know on a web forum they are not linked to? I don't think so. Anyways remain fixated.


Did you ask the same questions about the frightening images that were posted that depicted a Pit Bull with a bite history and extreme dog/animal aggression as a nice doggie in order to make the danger appear innocuous? That's right, remain fixated on propagating a false image while others and their pets are endangered. 

I really wish you or another of your ilk would compile videos, pictures, and reports of human and animal victims of German Shepherds, especially for this breed with its "civil" nature and great worldwide popularity. Heck, lump all the herding breeds together to ensure fairness. I would not hesitate to go toe to toe with you on that one. I think even you would be shocked at the results when it comes to comparing what at first would appear to be apples and apples (dog to dog), but if the specifics of each breed's respective purpose was to be considered, I believe one would find that the real comparison would be apples and oranges (DA/AA/game vs civil/HA) and those differences would be glaringly obvious. Then again, maybe not. Maybe you are like others that can watch their pet ripped apart alive by a Pit Bull and walk away with an image in their mind of what a nice doggie! That can't be fixed.

Do I express remorse or condolences toward strangers that have suffered a grave loss on a forum that may or may not be linked to the forum? Why yes, it is considered normal in America to make such statements such as: "So sorry for this woman and her family, what a tragedy, sending prayers to them in this trying time." If you go back to the beginning of this thread itself you will find decent people making such comments expressing sorrow and concern for the victim in the opening video. It is a part of being human and you will see such comments made throughout this forum and others. What is not normal considered normal in this country is to dismiss the hapless victim while presenting the killer in a positive image in a knee jerk response to keep the deceit going. It is not considered appropriate to praise the Jeffrey Dahmers or Charles Mansons while ignoring or dismissing the victims, at least not in America.


----------



## MadLab

> That's right, remain fixated on propagating a false image while others and their pets are endangered.


I've never said any dog is ideal. I believe all dogs are potentially dangerous in the wrong hands. Obviously some are much more capable of damage due to there physical prowess. 

All dogs are predators and the lack of understanding of this and managing the predator, is what leads to issues with dog and human aggression. 

There is always the potential of accidents when working with dogs, so responsible owners take precautions and make sure there dog is not free to roam the neighbor hood or left in a room with a young child. 

If I'm projecting an image of any breed wouldn't touch a fly, then please quote me on it as I can't recall.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Mikelia said:


> Shall I introduce you to the Chesapeake bay retriever I recently had here as a foster? Thank god she has a good breeder who took her back but that one was scary dog, with a looooooong bite history.


Chessies are the only retriever breed that can be civil and are recommended for the hunter that wants a dual purpose dog that will guard as well. This behavior should not come as a surprise and is no secret.



Mikelia said:


> Or the family pet English bulldog who was owned by a friend of mine who tore her arm apart?


Another breed derive from the same roots of the Pit Bull and not so far apart. Some old timers still call Pit Bull Terriers "Pit Bull Bulldogs".



Mikelia said:


> Or the tons of other breed dogs I have worked with who have bite histories and animal aggression tendencies? Look at this forum, so many gsds who have bitten, who can't be around strangers, who are animal aggressive.


This is not about whether a dog is good or bad based on aggression, this is about presenting aggressive dogs as "not" aggressive or downplaying the aggression with obvious dire consequences. Nobody is portraying the GSD, or other breeds, as non aggressive, and therein lies the difference and the danger.



Mikelia said:


> And for the record, I never made a call out for unstable pits, I've seen them, I've worked with them, just as I've seen unstable breeds of other dogs. They may be banned here but they are here in abundance and I can also take you through some pretty sketchy neighbourhoods with pathetic pit bull type dogs lunging on chains, locked in backyards or warehouses or basements. I can let you meet a guy who keeps bringing them up from the states, to have animal control eventually take them. His dogs are screwed and very dangerous, because he encourages them to be that way.


Do you think there is a possibility that it is the breed? As somebody that lives in the states I can attest to many Pit Bulls that fit that description that were not encouraged to be that way. Perhaps the ones he imports are one and the same as the Pit Bulls from my area, the shelters are full of dangerous Pit Bulls here that should NOT be adopted out to the public.



Mikelia said:


> My local shelter euthanizes way more gsds than pit bulls, especially since the ban has taken effect. It breaks my heart to see them too, most recently three beautiful gsd mixes from two different homes of idiot people who encouraged them to be aggressive. Those dogs were screwed, and this is just within the last two weeks.


Being that these are shelter dogs, how do you know they were encouraged to be aggressive? Being that these are German Shepherds, how do you know they just weren't expressing their genetics to be civil? The breed is expected to be protective and guard and they can't serve in those capacities without some natural aggression.



Mikelia said:


> I have said all I have to say. You obviously cannot accept the fact that pit bull type dogs can be decent pets in the right home.


I NEVER said or implied this. My message all along has been education about the Pit Bull's genetics and expected behavior coupled with Pit Bulls, regardless of aggression, being in the right home that will not DENY the potential and will responsibly own them. 



Mikelia said:


> You cannot possibly believe that a pit bull might not start a fight, even though I have no reason to lie.


You are right, I can't. I have seen way too many Pit Bull fights and ALL of them were started by the Pit Bull. I have no reason to lie but I do have many good reasons to expose the danger.



Mikelia said:


> All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite.


Off topic and deflecting. This thread is about extreme Pit Bull attacks, maulings and fatalities, not dog bites. Perhaps another thread?



Mikelia said:


> And just because a dog has a bite history and is animal (or human) aggressive does not make it a pit bull.


Perhaps you err and attribute such a comment to something I said?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Mikelia said:


> Sweetie had her issues when she came home, the rescue gsd had his when he came home but we are all through that. I have not had a fight in my home for many years now, until my other gsd tried to take out my pit bull last week. And again I say, the pit bull has never, ever been the instigator (*aside from when she first came home and wanted to kill my cats*) and she has always let me finish the fights.


Thanks once again for the supporting documentation. 

As posted earlier, a copy and paste from a respected breeder on this site, the kill bite is only a part of the prey drive sequence which may or may not be inherited by a dog. Seems like Pit Bulls have a lot of this, especially when compared to other breeds.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> My GSD is DA. If an encounter with a stray PB were to occur, it is likely that she would make the first aggressive move. No argument there. It is the damage incurred and the difficulty breaking up the fight that is a huge problem.
> 
> This topic has been swaying back and forth. It looks as though many can say, "yes, there is a problem with the PB breeds (HA & DA) and then there seems to be a lull in the discussions. Then, someone brings a GSD into the conversation and people sway and say "Yes, I've witnessed an attack by GSD or I got bit trying to break up a fight". ...... Stop... because that is where the similarity ends...
> 
> A GSD can certainly start a fight. A PB will start fighting in situations that would not provoke a GSD. Back to square one _BECAUSE THEY ARE BRED TO BE FIGHTING DOGS. _ The seriousness and duration of an attack in a dog bred to fight is more severe and prolonged. There is no off switch because they were bred not to have one.
> 
> Elderly, feeble dogs may be attacked and killed in a pack. That is a known among several breeds. It is for a purpose (as cruel as that seems to people). When you raise a "pack" of dogs in a human environment where the weak and elderly do survive - it brings stresses on the pack that are not natural. One or all pack members may "gang up" on the weak member in an attempt to drive it away from the pack. If it cannot leave - they will kill it. Elderly dogs need protection from this instinct.
> 
> Fighting within a pack over dominance, food or other issues should not be compared with dogs bred to fight. The reasons are different, there is no dominant/submissive resolution - in the fighting dog's mind, the only thing that needs resolution is who dies.


Again pit bulls are not bred to be HA at all, so whatever is causing attacks on humans can't be genetics. For example... You have a male and female pit, you teach them how to attack and kill people, will there pups have that trait? Probably not because it's a learned or trained behavior. Behaviors that are trained and learned can be untrained and unlearned but are not genetic.


----------



## MadLab

Mineare WL said ..


> This thread is about extreme Pit Bull attacks, maulings and fatalities, not dog bites. Perhaps another thread?


Who exactly defines what the thread is about??


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> If I'm projecting an image of any breed wouldn't touch a fly, then please quote me on it as I can't recall.


Where did I imply that?


----------



## MadLab

> That's right, remain fixated on propagating a false image while others and their pets are endangered.


Maybe this was directed at someone else. You can clarify if you like.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Again pit bulls are not bred to be HA at all, so whatever is causing attacks on humans can't be genetics. For example... You have a male and female pit, you teach them how to attack and kill people, will there pups have that trait? Probably not because it's a learned or trained behavior. Behaviors that are trained and learned can be untrained and unlearned but are not genetic.


No dogman ever culled a top pit contender due to human aggression. They were used prolifically for breeding. Once again this was gone over already in this thread in detail complete with documentation. 

Many Pit Bull extreme injuries are the result of people trying to save their companion animals and the Pit Bull redirects to the human.

The one neighbor across the street has an extremely DA and HA Pit Bull, she pumps puppies out like they are going out of style.

The Pit Bull next door to her with the loooooong bite history over the course of one mere year is being used for breeding. They stud him out all the time.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Mineare WL said ..
> 
> Who exactly defines what the thread is about??


The OP's intention.

If they had wanted to discuss what nice doggies some people present Pit Bulls to be, they would have posted pictures of Pit Bulls in tutus with flowers on their heads and said discuss, but they didn't.


----------



## MishkasMom

> This thread is about extreme Pit Bull attacks, maulings and fatalities, not dog bites. Perhaps another thread?


 Actually the dogs in the original video at the beginning of the thread were Dogo Argentino not PBT


> Originally Posted by llombardo
> Again pit bulls are not bred to be HA at all, so whatever is causing attacks on humans can't be genetics. For example... You have a male and female pit, you teach them how to attack and kill people, will there pups have that trait? Probably not because it's a learned or trained behavior. Behaviors that are trained and learned can be untrained and unlearned but are not genetic.


 Agreed 100 %


----------



## MadLab

The title says Dog anyways, but a thread can have a meandering course and thats good

There is no thread god deciding who's on topic and shewing posters away, i hope

lol


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> Mine are WL said,
> 
> Does it achieve anything to post graphic images of dog mauling. I think we know how bad it is, but i'm hoping you don't get off on it.
> 
> Maybe I can start posting vids of GSD attacking people and pics of the damage done. But I have absolutely no point to prove and I find it sick.
> 
> Do you post condolences to people you don't know on a web forum they are not linked to? I don't think so. Anyways remain fixated.


My response: That's right, remain fixated on propagating a false image while others and their pets are endangered.



MadLab said:


> Maybe this was directed at someone else. You can clarify if you like.


Do you think it might have something to do how you chose only the pictures depicting mauling Pit Bulls to fixate on and single out for dismissive comments while neglecting to comment on those which tried to create an image of Pit Bulls as nice doggies that I was responding to? Did you forget about that already?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MishkasMom said:


> Actually the dogs in the original video at the beginning of the thread were Dogo Argentino not PBT
> 
> Agreed 100 %


That is an opinion based on a video taken from forty feet away. There were pictures of the same dogs taken when in the same room which shows the unlikelihood of the dogs being Dogos while demonstrating physical features far closer to Pit Bulls.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Just for the record, if GSD advocates were dressing GSDs in tutus and flowers and promoting them as something that they genetically were not bred to be, and should not be expected, I would be just as vocal, even without the long history of extreme attacks and fatalities. Being that they are my heart breed, maybe I would be even more vocal in defense of my breed and what they are, not what somebody wishes them to be.


----------



## MadLab

People don't need to see a photo of a car accident to realize how horrific it is. 

If someone wants to study the end result of dog attacks, I say go ahead, just don't need to share with everyone. 

The statistics I welcome, and peoples opinions, experiences and perspective


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> People don't need to see a photo of a car accident to realize how horrific it is.
> 
> If someone wants to study the end result of dog attacks, I say go ahead, just don't need to share with everyone.
> 
> The statistics I welcome, and peoples opinions, experiences and perspective


Many people have not seen a photo of a car accident or the results of a Pit Bull mauling. What other reason to hide the facts than to deliberately attempt to skew opinions? Why would you suggest presenting half the story? Are you suggesting to hide the dark side so that people don't have the necessary information to draw their own conclusions based in fact, but only half truths? On what do you base such a deceitful practice?

There does not seem to be any objections to dressing Pit Bulls that have killed in flowers and tutus to create a false image, why object to images that don't practice to deceive?


----------



## MishkasMom

That opinion was of the OP also. However considering that most of your 200+ posts here on this forum were on threads discussing Pits and their aggression... I would say we'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that


----------



## MadLab

The statistics I welcome, and peoples opinions, experiences and perspective

What more can I say. lol


----------



## wolfy dog

I have appreciated this thread (didn't watch the video; kinda know what to expect). As a result I no longer take on aggression cases with Pits or anything resembling them. When they ask for training, I first have them send a picture from their Pointer mix, Lab mix or any mix that sounds suspicious. 
The main reason is that you cannot change people's minds and many are actually secretly proud of these dogs. It's been a relief to make up my mind though. So thanks. But it looks like the thread is getting repetitive.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> I have appreciated this thread (didn't watch the video; kinda know what to expect). As a result I no longer take on aggression cases with Pits or anything resembling them. When they ask for training, I first have them send a picture from their Pointer mix, Lab mix or any mix that sounds suspicious.
> *The main reason is that you cannot change people's minds and many are actually secretly proud of these dogs.* It's been a relief to make up my mind though. So thanks. But it looks like the thread is getting repetitive.


Out of 57 pages of comments, that one sentence alone sums up so much.


----------



## MadLab

Who isn't proud of their dogs?

Once you put some work into something I think you can be proud of it. It can be training a dog or getting a degree or accomplishing something. 

I'm proud of my dogs behavior.


----------



## Steve Strom

MadLab said:


> Who isn't proud of their dogs?
> 
> Once you put some work into something I think you can be proud of it. It can be training a dog or getting a degree or accomplishing something.
> 
> I'm proud of my dogs behavior.


I don't think you're reading that the way it was meant MadLab. Some people are proud of the poor nerves and misplaced aggression that too many of them have.


----------



## llombardo

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think you're reading that the way it was meant MadLab. Some people are proud of the poor nerves and misplaced aggression that too many of them have.


I don't think people are proud of poor nerves, it's more likely they aren't educated enough to understand and/or trainers refuse to work with them or these types of dogs. Pit bulls are high energy dogs that can be destructive if not exercised enough, like many other breeds. If people can't read their dogs how can they help them?


----------



## MadLab

'These dogs' weren't specified. Let me presume it means dogs of bull and terrier origin with aggression issues.

I don't get a dog trainer turning down work. Maybe people feel it is too much of a liability. The dog can go be aggressive in future regardless of training if the owner is not doing their part.

I would understand more if people refused aggression cases totally, rather than a specific breed of dog.

Thats what I don't get about BSL. People can breed dogs more dangerous than pit bulls and sell them to clueless owners and they could be aggressive but not coming under the legislation. 

Dog laws should be for all dogs imo.

I feel if the pit disappeared something like the Malinois will replace it. Same people will start breeding and same people will start owning. 

If thats banned it'll be another breed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I don't think people are proud of poor nerves, it's more likely they aren't educated enough to understand and/or trainers refuse to work with them or these types of dogs. Pit bulls are high energy dogs that can be destructive if not exercised enough, like many other breeds. If people can't read their dogs how can they help them?


Poor nerves and lack of exercise does not create genetic dog aggression.


----------



## wolfy dog

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think you're reading that the way it was meant MadLab. Some people are proud of the poor nerves and misplaced aggression that too many of them have.


That's right. 
MadLab: I refuse to work with DA and HA Pit types. Call it whatever you want but I know my limits and I know from experience that the success rate of treating DA and HA in these breeds is about 0% with the techniques I am willing to work with and the lack of commitment from their owners.
I have had success with other DA and HA breeds though and won't turn these down, again based on my experience. But I require a strong commitment from these owners by paying in advance for several sessions. If they only want a quick fix in one session, I will tell them, " Sorry". I don't want to jeopardize my good name in the community.
I am not the kind of trainer that brags about taking on every dog.


----------



## Stonevintage

llombardo said:


> I don't think people are proud of poor nerves, it's more likely they aren't educated enough to understand and/or trainers refuse to work with them or these types of dogs. Pit bulls are high energy dogs that can be destructive if not exercised enough, like many other breeds. If people can't read their dogs how can they help them?


The problem with PB's is that they can be highly destructive if not exercised enough? Interesting point of view. What more can be done to educate people or make them understand any more than what has already been said and done?. Every time, people rise to say that they are no different than any other breed. Ref; Berlin laws. Could you see similar regulations happening here?

1. Must pass a field test that shows you can control the dangerous dog.

2. Not allowed to breed or import dangerous dog.

3. Not allowed to own a dangerous dog if you have been convicted of a violent, dog or drug crime.

4. Must have dangerous dog on leash and muzzled when off property. 

These are viable solutions. Regardless, if a person would fall under these after a first offence or right from the start - I can't see it happening here. LE and the legal system here simply do not place enough importance on dog issues that they do in many other countries.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> 'These dogs' weren't specified. Let me presume it means dogs of bull and terrier origin with aggression issues.
> 
> I don't get a dog trainer turning down work. Maybe people feel it is too much of a liability. The dog can go be aggressive in future regardless of training if the owner is not doing their part.
> 
> I would understand more if people refused aggression cases totally, rather than a specific breed of dog.
> 
> Thats what I don't get about BSL. People can breed dogs more dangerous than pit bulls and sell them to clueless owners and they could be aggressive but not coming under the legislation.
> 
> Dog laws should be for all dogs imo.
> 
> I feel if the pit disappeared something like the Malinois will replace it. Same people will start breeding and same people will start owning.
> 
> If thats banned it'll be another breed.


"These dogs" were clearly specified in the article. If you chose not to read it, fine, but please don't choose to argue with something that you have not read.

Who is talking about BSL in any form?

Dog laws should be dog laws that protect the public. If one breed is mauling and killing in inordinate numbers more than all other breeds combined in areas that already have strict all breed dangerous dog laws, putting blinders on to the breed specific problem will not address the issue any more than tightening restrictions on other breeds of dogs that are not a part of the problem.

If the Ford Pinto is prone to burst into flames when hit from the rear, you don't recall all cars, only Ford Pintos. If drunk drivers are causing serious accidents far more than other groups of drivers, you make laws that address drunk drivers, not laws that impact all drivers. Same can be said for teenaged drivers. 

Breed banning is way off topic. Another thread perhaps?


----------



## MadLab

I was referring to the 'these dogs in Wolfy dogs post



> When they ask for training, I first have them send a picture from their Pointer mix, Lab mix or any mix that sounds suspicious.
> The main reason is that you cannot change people's minds and many are actually secretly proud of *these dog*s.


If not banning the pits and derivatives, whats your solution?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think you're reading that the way it was meant MadLab. Some people are proud of the poor nerves and misplaced aggression that too many of them have.


He does understand it Steve. This is a well known Pit Bull advocacy tactic: "It is all in how you raise them". When do you ever hear this en masse about other breeds of dogs?

This is critical to their deceit because it takes 100% of the blame off of the genetics / dog and lays it all on the owner. If they can convince enough people to believe this fallacy, it is believed that they can stop and repeal BSL. 

The biggest problem with that is they offer no other viable solution to remedy the number of extreme maulings and fatalities by the breed and the carnage continues unchecked.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> I was referring to the 'these dogs in Wolfy dogs post
> 
> 
> 
> If not banning the pits and derivatives, whats your solution?


My apologies for thinking you were once again addressing one of my posts.

If you are asking me about what my solution is, for the umpteenth time on this thread it is for dog and breed experts, trainers, breeders, etc., to come out and educate the public that Pit Bulls are not tutus and flowers. I want an unsuspecting adopter in a shelter to be made aware that adopting any dog is not about hugs and kisses, but the dog's genetics and experiences, NATURE and nurture, not just nurture.


----------



## wolfy dog

MadLab said:


> If not banning the pits and derivatives, whats your solution?


Keeping fingers crossed and keeping myself and my dogs safe, educating people who ask for breed advice, discouraging people with kids who call me when they have seen a cute young Pit in the shelter. There's only so much one can do.


----------



## MadLab

We agree on something any ways.



> If you are asking me about what my solution is, for the umpteenth time on this thread it is for dog and breed experts, trainers, breeders, etc., to come out and educate the public that Pit Bulls are not tutus and flowers.


I'd just like those people to educate about safe dog owner ship of all breeds as well.

But are you saying you never put a pair of sun glasses on a dog or dressed it up? Ok, I only put some clothes on my dogs for Halloween.

Thought dog owners aught to have a sense of humor.

Is it such an issue to put a gown on a hound.


----------



## llombardo

Stonevintage said:


> The problem with PB's is that they can be highly destructive if not exercised enough? Interesting point of view. What more can be done to educate people or make them understand any more than what has already been said and done?. Every time, people rise to say that they are no different than any other breed. Ref; Berlin laws. Could you see similar regulations happening here?
> 
> 1. Must pass a field test that shows you can control the dangerous dog.
> 
> 2. Not allowed to breed or import dangerous dog.
> 
> 3. Not allowed to own a dangerous dog if you have been convicted of a violent, dog or drug crime.
> 
> 4. Must have dangerous dog on leash and muzzled when off property.
> 
> These are viable solutions. Regardless, if a person would fall under these after a first offence or right from the start - I can't see it happening here. LE and the legal system here simply do not place enough importance on dog issues that they do in many other countries.


They are getting more careful with adoptions here. Any bully breeds, GSDs , or Rotts require a home check. All pets and people in home must meet the dog. Some offer lifetime training. The shelters don't want to see these dogs back, they want them to succeed in the new homes. They can only do so much, some of it falls on the owner and they need to be both responsible and accountable.


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## wolfy dog

MadLab said:


> But are you saying you never put a pair of sun glasses on a dog or dressed it up? Ok, I only put some clothes on my dogs for Halloween.


NO, never and I never will. I treat them like dogs. Thank goodness that I have a sound GSD, maybe because of that? 
Wait, once I put sunglasses on an orange to make it look cool and it did.
Time to go. Thanks for the chat


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## MadLab

> once I put sunglasses on an orange to make it look cool and it did.


Thats a serious case of mollycoddling


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> We agree on something any ways.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd just like those people to educate about safe dog owner ship of all breeds as well.
> 
> But are you saying you never put a pair of sun glasses on a dog or dressed it up? Ok, I only put some clothes on my dogs for Halloween.
> 
> Thought dog owners aught to have a sense of humor.
> 
> Is it such an issue to put a gown on a hound.


I may do silly things with my dogs but it is never with the intent of presenting them as something that they are not.


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## Steve Strom

> once I put sunglasses on an orange to make it look cool and it did.


I came back from Santa Cruz one time, looking exactly like that. I didn't feel very cool though.


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## MishkasMom

We can go on like this forever but what we need to do is ban so called "thugs", "gangstas", drug dealers and Michael Vick "wannabees" from owning them, then I guarantee that reports of attacks and maulings will decrease significantly. PBT are not some demon spawn that is born to attack and kill, they are just dogs and I think/hope all on this forum are dog lovers and we should strive for responsible dog ownership no matter what's the breed.


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## Pirates Lair

Who brings a young child in to the middle of a Dog Mauling in progress? 

I was a Cruelty Investigator for the BC SPCA for 19 years, and I have had many experiences with this breed and the people that own them.

The biggest problem I have with this breed is their Genetics, they lack something that every other animal on the planet possess. They lack self preservation, meaning that once they are in a fight they don't stop even if they are losing.

Everyone has probably seen a wildlife show where two Grizzly Bears or Wolves are in a fight, one of them eventually realizes it is losing the fight and he takes off……and the victor lets him go.

Not the case with this breed and I have witnessed it, ever hear the term "Dead Game" ?

It means that the dog died in combat or after but was still trying to scratch (fight) so he died game = Dead Game.

It occurs in a dog fighting match, the losing dog (sometimes crippled) is allowed to "scratch" (enter the fight while the winning dog is held back. It shows the gameness of the dog to fight even though it is near death.

Given the publicity this breed has received or the last twenty or so years, the restrictions that some cities impose on keeping them etc. One has to ask why? Why would anyone want this breed of dog when there are so many more to choose from?

Think about that.


Kim


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## MadLab

What are your suggested breeds for people, poodle and gsd?

Would you breed of a dog who didn't give it all in bite work. I see heavy pressure with flanking etc on the bite. You like your dog to release at any time?


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## MineAreWorkingline

MishkasMom said:


> We can go on like this forever but what we need to do is ban so called "thugs", "gangstas", drug dealers and Michael Vick "wannabees" from owning them, then I guarantee that reports of attacks and maulings will decrease significantly. PBT are not some demon spawn that is born to attack and kill, they are just dogs and I think/hope all on this forum are dog lovers and we should strive for responsible dog ownership no matter what's the breed.


The vast majority of Pit Bull maulings and attacks are by those owned as loving family pets, especially when the victim is a family child or owner. It is relatively rare for one owned by thugs, ganstas, drug dealers and amateur dog fighters to attack. Most of those people don't deny what they have. Like another poster commented, they are proud of it.

No dog breed is just a dog. Most dog breeds are purpose bred to exhibit specific behaviors and traits. This is what gives us dog breeds unique and distinct from all other dog breeds. This has been covered in detail in previous posts on this thread.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Pirates Lair said:


> Who brings a young child in to the middle of a Dog Mauling in progress?
> 
> I was a Cruelty Investigator for the BC SPCA for 19 years, and I have had many experiences with this breed and the people that own them.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with this breed is their Genetics, they lack something that every other animal on the planet possess. They lack self preservation, meaning that once they are in a fight they don't stop even if they are losing.
> 
> Everyone has probably seen a wildlife show where two Grizzly Bears or Wolves are in a fight, one of them eventually realizes it is losing the fight and he takes off……and the victor lets him go.
> 
> Not the case with this breed and I have witnessed it, ever hear the term "Dead Game" ?
> 
> It means that the dog died in combat or after but was still trying to scratch (fight) so he died game = Dead Game.
> 
> It occurs in a dog fighting match, the losing dog (sometimes crippled) is allowed to "scratch" (enter the fight while the winning dog is held back. It shows the gameness of the dog to fight even though it is near death.
> 
> Given the publicity this breed has received or the last twenty or so years, the restrictions that some cities impose on keeping them etc. One has to ask why? Why would anyone want this breed of dog when there are so many more to choose from?
> 
> Think about that.
> 
> 
> Kim


Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Thank your for your well informed post and your courage to speak out.


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> What are your suggested breeds for people, poodle and gsd?
> 
> Would you breed of a dog who didn't give it all in bite work. I see heavy pressure with flanking etc on the bite. You like your dog to release at any time?


There are over four hundred dog breeds world wide. One less dog breed to choose from will make little difference to the majority but it will make a massive difference to the mauling and fatality victims and their families.


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## Pirates Lair

*MadLab *- You got a problem with my Poodle? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgO7irwrI


As far as my coments about the breed topic here, you either get it or you don't. 

We can agree to disagree.


Kim


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## llombardo

Pirates Lair said:


> Who brings a young child in to the middle of a Dog Mauling in progress?
> 
> I was a Cruelty Investigator for the BC SPCA for 19 years, and I have had many experiences with this breed and the people that own them.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with this breed is their Genetics, they lack something that every other animal on the planet possess. They lack self preservation, meaning that once they are in a fight they don't stop even if they are losing.
> 
> Everyone has probably seen a wildlife show where two Grizzly Bears or Wolves are in a fight, one of them eventually realizes it is losing the fight and he takes off……and the victor lets him go.
> 
> Not the case with this breed and I have witnessed it, ever hear the term "Dead Game" ?
> 
> It means that the dog died in combat or after but was still trying to scratch (fight) so he died game = Dead Game.
> 
> It occurs in a dog fighting match, the losing dog (sometimes crippled) is allowed to "scratch" (enter the fight while the winning dog is held back. It shows the gameness of the dog to fight even though it is near death.
> 
> Given the publicity this breed has received or the last twenty or so years, the restrictions that some cities impose on keeping them etc. One has to ask why? Why would anyone want this breed of dog when there are so many more to choose from?
> 
> Think about that.
> 
> 
> Kim


So is the problem the breed or the disgusting people that own them? As an animal cruelty investigator how many of these people paid for abusing the dogs? Out of those that were penalized how many dogs ended up euthanized anyway, sftef being tortured? How many of those people went put and started all over with another dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline

pirates lair said:


> *madlab *- you got a problem with my poodle?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhwgo7irwri
> 
> 
> as far as my coments about the breed topic here, you either get it or you don't.
> 
> we can agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> kim


awesome!


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> So is the problem the breed or the disgusting people that own them? As an animal cruelty investigator how many of these people paid for abusing the dogs? Out of those that were penalized how many dogs ended up euthanized anyway, sftef being tortured? How many of those people went put and started all over with another dog?


"The biggest problem I have with this breed is their Genetics, they lack something that every other animal on the planet possess. They lack self preservation, meaning that once they are in a fight they don't stop even if they are losing." Kim

That would be the breed, not the owner.


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## llombardo

I want to know from someone who had worked on abuse cases what the penalty is for fog fighting, abuse, torture and all thst other stuff these dogs go through. They get beat, starved and tortured and then we wonder why their pain threshold is so high?


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I want to know from someone who had worked on abuse cases what the penalty is for fog fighting, abuse, torture and all thst other stuff these dogs go through. They get beat, starved and tortured and then we wonder why their pain threshold is so high?


What makes you think that their pain threshold is so high? What makes you think that would be influenced by environment?

There are other dogs breeds used in fighting and many other dog breeds badly abused, do you think they have high pain thresholds?


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> What are your suggested breeds for people, poodle and gsd?
> 
> Would you breed of a dog who didn't give it all in bite work. I see heavy pressure with flanking etc on the bite. You like your dog to release at any time?


Kim's dogs work in real venues, they should be good in bitework for what is required of them. Same can be said for dogs used in sport and other similar venues.

The real question is why do you think a dog bred to be a "pet" should be bred to give its all in bitework? What makes you think that is a criteria to be a good pet?


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## newlie

Are there any common grounds that can be agree upon? It seems like we are becoming more polarized the longer this discussion goes on. I really and truly don't believe that anybody believes that it is ALL about how a dog is raised. There are differences in breeds and then again, differences in individual dogs within any breed. And I also don't believe that anybody believes it is ALL totally genetics. You can take the same dog and put it in two diametrically opposed homes and end up with some differences.

Lack of money and staff are always the problem But, if we had the world at our command, what would we like to see? I think Stone suggested some ideas that are in use in some places. 

Mandatory home checks for at least certain breeds of dogs?
Mandatory educational sessions for those who are interested in adopting certain breeds?
of dogs?
Several mandatory visits to the shelter so that the potential adopters could be observed interacting with certain breeds of dogs?
Certain breeds of dogs being prohibited from being adopted by convicted felons?

Anybody else have any ideas?


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## llombardo

This is what I see....

It's starts when they are puppies


They get starved..


Abused


And used for greed


They are disfigured


All in the name of money because that is what it's all about



Just look closely at what humans do to these animals. Where does it end? 
I prefer to see them like this..


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## llombardo

newlie said:


> Are there any common grounds that can be agree upon? It seems like we are becoming more polarized the longer this discussion goes on. I really and truly don't believe that anybody believes that it is ALL about how a dog is raised. There are differences in breeds and then again, differences in individual dogs within any breed. And I also don't believe that anybody believes it is ALL totally genetics. You can take the same dog and put it in two diametrically opposed homes and end up with some differences.
> 
> Lack of money and staff are always the problem But, if we had the world at our command, what would we like to see? I think Stone suggested some ideas that are in use in some places.
> 
> Mandatory home checks for at least certain breeds of dogs?
> Mandatory educational sessions for those who are interested in adopting certain breeds?
> of dogs?
> Several mandatory visits to the shelter so that the potential adopters could be observed interacting with certain breeds of dogs?
> Certain breeds of dogs being prohibited from being adopted by convicted felons?
> 
> Anybody else have any ideas?


Start with the gangs. That's where it's the biggest issue. They breed to fight them to make money or make a quick buck. Start on the streets. Once that's under control there will be less of them and less chance of bites/fatalities.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Start with the gangs. That's where it's the biggest issue. They breed to fight them to make money or make a quick buck. Start on the streets. Once that's under control there will be less of them and less chance of bites/fatalities.


What do gangs have to do with Pit Bull maulings?

It is well documented that the family pet Pit Bull is responsible for the majority of Pit Bull extreme attacks and fatalities, not those belonging to gang bangers. This was already covered in detail previously as well.

Why not local municipalities pass ordinances banning chickens? Same effect.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> This is what I see....
> 
> It's starts when they are puppies
> 
> 
> They get starved..
> 
> 
> Abused
> 
> 
> And used for greed
> 
> 
> They are disfigured
> 
> 
> All in the name of money because that is what it's all about
> 
> 
> 
> Just look closely at what humans do to these animals. Where does it end?
> I prefer to see them like this..


I see this, all these children were all either mauled or killed by FAMILY Pit Bulls.


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## MadLab

> The real question is why do you think a dog bred to be a "pet" should be bred to give its all in bitework? What makes you think that is a criteria to be a good pet?


I don't but it is regarded as a test of temperament. It was a widely used test included in a training called Schutzhund. 

Working line ought to excel being bred for this for a century


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> I don't but it is regarded as a test of temperament. It was a widely used test included in a training called Schutzhund.
> 
> Working line ought to excel being bred for this for a century


Since when is Schutzhund a test for a good pet?

Since when are bully breeds the go to breed for somebody looking to participate in IPO?


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## Pirates Lair

*llombardo*- to answer your question, I don't know of any Pit fights that were busted here in Canada. We have busted **** Rooster fighting (which is just as bad) events in progress though.

And we have seized dogs which we believe were involved in organized fighting. But actually catching them in the act is very rare and difficult.

Under the Criminal Code of Canada this crime is a Summary Conviction Offense (like a Misdemeanor in the U.S.) maximum penalty of 2 years in jail and or a $2000 fine.

First you need to understand that dog/**** fighting are referred to as Blood Sports. So your participants/spectators are generally violent people, violent people participate in violent pastimes. 

Dogs and cats are used to train these dogs for the pit, smaller weaker animals - builds the dogs confidence. 

Their world is a very secretive one, you can't just get invited to a dog fight on Saturday. These events usually take place in very well concealed locations and look outs are posted to watch for the police. The few times that organized events have been busted in the U.S. the Police also found numerous firearms, drugs and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Much like the Cockfight we busted in Canada, we found drugs and weapons. All of the participants that were arrested had criminal records for violent offences.

You also have to understand that as vile as these blood sports are, the people involved consider themselves just as much professional dog trainers and handlers as the participants of IPO Trials do.

As people talk about GSD studs and their accomplishments, so do these people.

Does this mean that every owner of a P. Bull is a Criminal? No.

But to say that Genetics is not involved??

Show me a Border Collie that does not instinctively herd….anything they can find. A Border Collie that is not being worked will eventually find some way to entertain itself and it will usually be something bad, much the same as Blue Healer. 

Ever meet a Jack Russell Terrier that would not scale a 12 foot wall if it saw a rat on the other side? That is not a taught behavior.

Genetics! 


Kim


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## MineAreWorkingline

Pirates Lair said:


> Dogs and cats are used to train these dogs for the pit, smaller weaker animals - builds the dogs confidence.


Yes, the real victims of dog fighting.

This is Kenny that lives with me, I saved him as a half grown kitten while he was being used for bait.


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## llombardo

Pirates Lair said:


> *llombardo*- to answer your question, I don't know of any Pit fights that were busted here in Canada. We have busted **** Rooster fighting (which is just as bad) events in progress though.
> 
> And we have seized dogs which we believe were involved in organized fighting. But actually catching them in the act is very rare and difficult.
> 
> Under the Criminal Code of Canada this crime is a Summary Conviction Offense (like a Misdemeanor in the U.S.) maximum penalty of 2 years in jail and or a $2000 fine.
> 
> First you need to understand that dog/**** fighting are referred to as Blood Sports. So your participants/spectators are generally violent people, violent people participate in violent pastimes.
> 
> Dogs and cats are used to train these dogs for the pit, smaller weaker animals - builds the dogs confidence.
> 
> Their world is a very secretive one, you can't just get invited to a dog fight on Saturday. These events usually take place in very well concealed locations and look outs are posted to watch for the police. The few times that organized events have been busted in the U.S. the Police also found numerous firearms, drugs and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
> 
> Much like the Cockfight we busted in Canada, we found drugs and weapons. All of the participants that were arrested had criminal records for violent offences.
> 
> You also have to understand that as vile as these blood sports are, the people involved consider themselves just as much professional dog trainers and handlers as the participants of IPO Trials do.
> 
> As people talk about GSD studs and their accomplishments, so do these people.
> 
> Does this mean that every owner of a P. Bull is a Criminal? No.
> 
> But to say that Genetics is not involved??
> 
> Show me a Border Collie that does not instinctively herd….anything they can find. A Border Collie that is not being worked will eventually find some way to entertain itself and it will usually be something bad, much the same as Blue Healer.
> 
> Ever meet a Jack Russell Terrier that would not scale a 12 foot wall if it saw a rat on the other side? That is not a taught behavior.
> 
> Genetics!
> 
> 
> Kim


Dog fights are held right out in the open here. Like clockwork every Friday at 7 pm right off a busy street. Reported and unsuccessful in breaking it up. I'm aware of bait dogs and all of that stuff. None of these things are new to me. 

The people are low class thugs and Gangbangers. They don't consider themselves anything more. It's about status and greed on the streets. 

Fines and penalties should be way more. Jail time and hefty fines, they don't like that pocket book being hit. 

Maybe that is the problem, different kind of people running these things in different areas?

Even you are missing the point, they are not bred to kill people, they are loyal to the end to their masters. They can get beat, starved and still wag there tail when they see the scum coming. DA is completely different and I know this about them, but DA is not HA by a long shot.


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## wolfy dog

*Can someone please stop this thread? People are pulling the most gruesome pictures from the net to get their point across.
*Reported it.


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## MadLab

> But to say that Genetics is not involved??


Nobody is denying genetic behavior exists.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I'm aware of bait dogs and all of that stuff. None of these things are new to me.


The problem is that some people seem to care more for the grippers than they do for the bait animals which are the true victims of dog fighting.


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## Stonevintage

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "The biggest problem I have with this breed is their Genetics, they lack something that every other animal on the planet possess. They lack self preservation, meaning that once they are in a fight they don't stop even if they are losing." Kim
> 
> That would be the breed, not the owner.


This is one point that has been brought up time after time. I have not yet seen an argument against it. It is by far for me, the most important point. The nature of the attack and the difficulty stopping it. This is where the dying happens with people and other dogs. When they don't stop and several attempts are made to stop the attack - it's no longer a dog to be managed - it's a flesh and blood rendering machine.


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## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> *Can someone please stop this thread? People are pulling the most gruesome pictures from the net to get their point across.
> *Reported it.


I think that was the purpose of posting those pictures, to get the thread shut down.

When the callous and uninformed can't baffle them with bull, move on to plan B.


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## lhczth

This thread is 62 pages long. It has run its course. 

Thank you,

ADMIN


----------

