# Aggression at night!



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Hi All,

My wife and I have really been struggling with our 11 month GSD. During the day he is good as gold, following commands, being his playful self. Over the past month and half we have noticed our pup getting quite aggressive at night - at first we thought this was guarding behaviour, but tonight realised this is not the case as he had absolutely nothing to guard.

Typically we crate him and at times, he goes into the crate without being asked to (which we like) but he often stands in there and pokes his head out to check we aren't coming. Once he settles we close the door where we are met with fierce growling/barking and snaring of teeth.

He has bitten me on the hand, and attacked my wife.

We have had an incident which was caught on camera and thankfully he was muzzled. The backstory was I touched his crate then he froze up so I left the room and came back when he sat in front of my wife. We were watching tv, he did a couple of low growls.. My wife got comfortable, put her hand on the pillow and he just went for her. I had to hold him for a good 20 minutes and he still didn't calm down (he lashed out at me too)

Has anyone experienced anything similar? We have spoken to behaviourists, two trainers and the vet and everyone cannot explain this behaviour. What would you do if this was your dog?

video:


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

What would I do if it was my dog? A one way trip to the vet. That attack you caught on video is so unacceptable. Your wife didn’t do anything to warrant that kind of aggression. Even if he was “guarding” something or thought she was reaching for him, that was a response from an unstable dog. If you’ve already had trainers, vets, and behaviorists on your team with no improvement, that dog would be gone in my house. That’s a huge liability waiting to happen, stressful, scary, and painful for everyone! So sorry you are dealing with this.


----------



## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Sadly, I agree with Pytheis...and I almost never advocate that. I couldn’t live with a dog like that. I can live with a dog that is aggressive to strangers but NOT family members. There is nothing in that video to suggest this was a warranted attack. I refuse to walk on egg shells around my dog. And, with that behavior, that’s what you would be doing.

That must have been scary for your wife.

I‘d be interested in the genetics of your dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why was he muzzled? How often is he muzzled and for how long? How did you crate train? Has he shown any collar aggression or a reluctance to be pet on the head?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That was insane. He would have killed her. No normal dog would do that. Especially GSDs will give plenty of warning. He was already tense lying there in front of her. Based on what I saw, I would take him to the vet and have him put down. You can reason forever about the hows and whys but it is what it is and it's good that you have it on camera.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why was he muzzled? How often is he muzzled and for how long? How did you crate train? Has he shown any collar aggression or a reluctance to be pet on the head?


I think this dog is beyond that level of trying to understand.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Maybe... maybe not... but I also question it taking 20 minutes to calm a muzzled dog ... he would have met Jesus or wished he did...


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

I suspect the dog has a mental health issue. One mistake or an unfortunate series of events, and he could serious injure or kill someone. Some things can't be fixed, and I imagine your family is living in fear and trauma, because of the dog.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

If you look closely, your dog was never comfortable while laying there. His posture while in the down was like a spring waiting to let loose and the ear set said the same. He did give 2 low growl warnings which would have given you enough time to remove him from the room. Also, the windows at night give off a mirror effect which could heighten his nerves. He may have seen your wife’s hand movement out the corner of his eye or via the windows.

Has the vet examined him?

Also, have you contacted the breeder to see if any siblings or any in his pedigree exhibited the same?

These are just my observations. Please don’t wait if he gives warnings, act immediately to protect everyone.

Also, there is some correlation to night aggression and the chemicals Serotonin and melatonin but can’t remember in what respect.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@David Winners


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

WTH is it with so many new biting/aggression threads in the last month? Is it my imagination or is this crazy escalation in frequency???


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What is your relationship like with the dog? What is your daily schedule like? How long is he crated a day? How has he been trained? Who trained him? What is it you do to calm him? What trainers did you work with? What did the other people you talked to say? Did you just show them the video or did they come observe the dog? The best recommendation I have for you based on what is here, is have a trainer observe the dog in these settings to identify things for you to work on and then send him to a board and train. This should be a trainer used to dealing with working dogs. You should also get a clean bill of health from a vet. While it’s debatable whether this is something that can be fixed or not right now, I think it’s safe to say it’s beyond your current ability.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dave2k20 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I have really been struggling with our 11 month GSD. During the day he is good as gold, following commands, being his playful self. Over the past month and half we have noticed our pup getting quite aggressive at night - at first we thought this was guarding behaviour, but tonight realised this is not the case as he had absolutely nothing to guard.
> 
> ...


Did you just speak to the vet or has the dog been examined? Thyroid panel? Dental exam?

Have you noticed any reluctance to move his head side to side?

Was he trained with a choke chain or allowed to pull excessively on a flat collar or slip lead?

Does he regularly chew large bones or rocks? Is he an aggressive chewer?

I don't think this is s crate issue, but how was he trained?

Have you used an e-collar or any startle tools in training in the house?

Can you think of anything from 7-11 months that really frightened the dog?

I'm thinking hypothyroid, broken tooth or a severe shock during the secondary fear period.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

But it is what it is now. I have seen dogs that had everything against them, yet never like this.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Hey, all these replies are missing that this is an issue that comes up after dark ("at night" I assume means after dark). I think there is some physical thing going on with the absence of daylight. I would want to know if it is every night or just some nights, what time does it start. I'd want to know the minute particulars of every incident. Do they always involve proximity to the crate? to him standing in the crate voluntarily? Has anything changed in the house with this? that is, different lighting, a new furnace, the furnace coming on, another appliance? If the crate door is closed, is there still a problem? - I'm thinking he's connecting something with people closing the door when he has gone in voluntarily - a temporary help might be to keep the door shut until you are ready to crate the dog. basically for now eliminate volunteer access if that is part of the trigger. 

Really I am concerned about the "at night" and thinking there's a fix to this.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm also curious about the series of events leading up to the outburst by your pup. OP said:



Dave2k20 said:


> The backstory was I touched his crate then he froze up so I left the room and came back when he sat in front of my wife. We were watching tv, he did a couple of low growls..


Was the puppy in the crate when you touched it? Was he muzzled then, or later, and by whom?

What do you mean by he froze?

I ask because it's easy to see the tension in the dog from the beginning of the video. 

Does he typically get along with your wife? I mean, do they have a good relationship normally, and interact daily? Or is the puppy mostly yours?

Did she have any interaction with him at all while you were out of the room?

In the OP you said he's bitten you and attacked your wife, are you referring to this incident or a previous attack?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

They lock people up like that. He behaves like someone on Flakka.


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Pytheis said:


> What would I do if it was my dog? A one way trip to the vet. That attack you caught on video is so unacceptable. Your wife didn’t do anything to warrant that kind of aggression. Even if he was “guarding” something or thought she was reaching for him, that was a response from an unstable dog. If you’ve already had trainers, vets, and behaviorists on your team with no improvement, that dog would be gone in my house. That’s a huge liability waiting to happen, stressful, scary, and painful for everyone! So sorry you are dealing with this.


Hi thanks for the reply,

It is an option we are strongly considering - during the night we are walking on egg shells. The vets haven't been great tbh - it feels like a ticking time bomb, we want to exhaust all options before we make the final decision.


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why was he muzzled? How often is he muzzled and for how long? How did you crate train? Has he shown any collar aggression or a reluctance to be pet on the head?


He was muzzled because he attacked my wife a few days (maybe a week) before. During that time he wasn't muzzled and my wife ended up getting bitten by him to the point he grabbed her arm and started shaking aggressively. I had to intervene and slap him with a slipper to get him off and had to escape through neighbours garden.

He was crate trained from the moment we got him (8 weeks) rewarded for being in the crate, never forced him in there. During the day if we say bed, he will run into his crate. He has no issue that I can think of being inside the crate.

We have had this muzzle for a while now although we dont use it very often (never needed to) we did make it a good experience, always putting peanut butter on it, he has no problem putting it on


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> That was insane. He would have killed her. No normal dog would do that. Especially GSDs will give plenty of warning. He was already tense lying there in front of her. Based on what I saw, I would take him to the vet and have him put down. You can reason forever about the hows and whys but it is what it is and it's good that you have it on camera.


I feel the same, it was so lucky we had a muzzle on him. This is what we are struggling with, we just have no idea what it is.. was it us? is it something wrong with him? is he pain? is it genetics?

We are thankful we have this on camera, we have shown the vets and behaviourist - even the behaviourist is lost for words


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Dunkirk said:


> I suspect the dog has a mental health issue. One mistake or an unfortunate series of events, and he could serious injure or kill someone. Some things can't be fixed, and I imagine your family is living in fear and trauma, because of the dog.


Correct we are living in fear (only at night) we can handle him in the day, he is responding well to us but it really is like a different dog at night. During the evening we are very much on edge, we have been getting better at recognising when he is going to act out, so at least we are prepared. However all it will take is one slip up from us before either my wife or I are seriously hurt


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Did you just speak to the vet or has the dog been examined? Thyroid panel? Dental exam?
> 
> Have you noticed any reluctance to move his head side to side?
> 
> ...



The vet examined the hips with an x-ray and it came back with very mild hip displasia. He was also castrated on the same day. We have told them this behaviour is still happening after and they are convinced it could be pain from the mild hip displasia (which I dont believe)

They didn't do any blood work or dental examination.

Moving his head side to side is fine, he loves his antlers but we have stopped giving that as we read about teeth fractures. He isn't particularly bad at chewing - never chewed furniture or anything.

He wasn't trained with a choke collar we trained him with a martingale collar. We did a lot of positive training and when we went to training he was very reactive so we did do a lot of correction with the leash/collar. We also started using a head collar, which was amazing as he began to get very strong with the halfcheck and it was difficult to control him. 

He walks very nicely with me and wife always by our side, if he walks infront and notices we stop he will run back to our side (if he doesnt we give a correction, pulling on the lead)

No e-collar or startling tools, either correction from the lead (he always has a lead on at home) or vocal corrections

Absolutely nothing we can think of, especially at night - its normally chill time at the time


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

middleofnowhere said:


> Hey, all these replies are missing that this is an issue that comes up after dark ("at night" I assume means after dark). I think there is some physical thing going on with the absence of daylight. I would want to know if it is every night or just some nights, what time does it start. I'd want to know the minute particulars of every incident. Do they always involve proximity to the crate? to him standing in the crate voluntarily? Has anything changed in the house with this? that is, different lighting, a new furnace, the furnace coming on, another appliance? If the crate door is closed, is there still a problem? - I'm thinking he's connecting something with people closing the door when he has gone in voluntarily - a temporary help might be to keep the door shut until you are ready to crate the dog. basically for now eliminate volunteer access if that is part of the trigger.
> 
> Really I am concerned about the "at night" and thinking there's a fix to this.



It's been consistent for nearly 2 weeks now, we ended up boarding him for a week as we just couldn't deal with it (this was during the first attack of my wife)

It used to be the crate then we removed it but he still does it. We feed him in the hallway (which leads to the living room where his crate is) After food he would typically walk there and guard the crate or not even let us enter the living room. He does this even if the crate door is closed.

If we close the door during the day, and open when he is ready for bed.. he will still get angry as soon as we touch the crate door to open it for him, same with closing it when he is already in it. Even walking near him while he's in the crate will set him off. It's like he goes in full defence mode.

I agree it really bugs me it is only at night, during the day I can open the crate, close the crate, get him to go in and out of it.

He has only acted like this once during the afternoon, it was after a group training session, he got very defensive there, when I tried to get him to sit in the correct position his body stiffened, ears pinned back. The trainer had to calm him down and he was fine getting into the car.

As soon as we got home he guarded the living room.


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm also curious about the series of events leading up to the outburst by your pup. OP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll give you full context:

That evening he was sleeping by the garden door everything was normal, crate door was closed my wife and I were watching TV. So we decided it was time for bed, so I stood up and was about to open his crate door (we closed it for the day to see if that stopped his guarding issue) and literally touched it enough to make a noise to wake up the dog. My wife said to take him to the toilet before we put him to bed, which is why I didn't end up opening the door

He stood up and his body looked tense and he was staring at me, he gives this warning look, head down corner of eye looking up at you.. almost like wth did you just do..

I recognise this and then walk out of the room, just to try diffuse the situation. He stands for a while in the same position, I go toilet give him a bit of a break he eventually sits down in front of wife.. she says good boy (no touching) he's now sitting in front of her facing the tv (as the video shows)

I come back into the room sit down next to her far enough away from him, as we are watching tv and speaking to each other we can hear him growl, low growls but gets louder. We ignore him as we cannot move - if we do we know he will snap. My wife tries to get comfortable touching the pillow and then he just snaps.

She has a lot of interaction with him shows him a lot of love, spends a lot of time training him corrects him when he is wrong. We both show him a lot of love and train him equally. We both take him for walks, some days she does, some days I do and often we do it together.

Referring to the first incident this is what happened:

Wife goes into the living room and he is guarding his crate, she opens garden door and tells him to come outside as she wants him to go toilet before bed, he walks as normal to the garden and then he just lunges at her where he grabs her hand/arms and bites a few times before clamping down and shaking his head as if he is trying to rip her arm off. I run outside and hit him with the slipper on the bum to get him to get off her and he does.. We then both end up going into our neighbours place where we can assess the damage.

There were a lot of shallow holes (more like dents on her arms) but it was very bruised, to the point she could barely move her arms without being in pain. He was in the garden and went back to his normal self, he did his whining/crying because we were somewhere where he wasnt. We managed to get him back in the crate and I drove my wife to the hospital (nothing serious other than bruising)


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Rage syndrome?









Rage Syndrome in Dogs - Whole Dog Journal


The term "rage syndrome" conjures up mental images of Cujo. Rage syndrome is actually more appropriately called "idiopathic aggression."




www.whole-dog-journal.com


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What is the dog's breeding?


----------



## EgansMom (Apr 18, 2020)

I am getting fear reactive not guarding. If he was poorly bred he may have high anxiety.
If that's the case confinement/anticipation of may send his anxiety over the top. Even just evening time brings an increase in anxiety.
What you percieve as normal . ie. your wife moving behind him...he perceives as a life or death threat. This is not behavioral and you won't be able to work with him behaviorally till he is chemically more stable. I do NOT recommend using training methods that increase fear and anxiety. Taking an aggressive approach will backfire.
1. switch to raw feeding and lose the carbs and grains which can contribute to mood instability via blood sugar.
2. lose the kennel. like completely out of sight
3. completely switch up his bedtime routine to something enjoyable. ie. a beef neck bone to chew on while you watch your shows. I would give it in a place far enough away from you that he feels like he has some space. Beef neck bones are soft enough that he can grind down the whole thing. It's a long chew so not only will it change his mind that evening is good.. it will also work out some anxiety.
** the only issue may be that sometimes one small hard piece of bone may be left and I don't know if you feel you can safely trade this out for a higher value item like a piece of cheese or meat.
Or...
Alternatively you could play a game of fetch in the garden to work out some anxiety.
Mine could find his ball and play fetch in the dark just fine.
Just a walk won't do. He needs to work off some stress.
Hard as it is ...do something to change YOUR energy at night. He is feeling that also.

Get his thyroid checked and ask the vet about Addisons disease. And again I strongly suggest switching to raw. If there is an underlying hormonal imbalance this will help to stabilize it. It sounds very much like he wants to be a good boy but his anxiety escalates beyond his control by evening.

Again I strongly recommend switching to raw. I don't think this is behavioral and if he is chemically out of balance and in an anxious state he is literally not capable of doing well no matter how much he wants to. If you have ever tried learning something when you are super fearful and anxious you will know it's just not possible. Start with this.

If my guess is correct...within 6 months of raw you will see a decrease in anxiety at which point you can truly begin to work with him to build trust and overcome fears. It is going to be a long road that requires dedication. He may never be the guy you can fully trust in all situations.

I am speaking from experience that I wish I had known sooner. The first 4 yrs with my Egan were what you are currently living. The last six years of his life were good and never again did he exhibit aggression towards myself or others (except the vet). He led a happy life and we overcame almost all his fear aggressive reactivity. We developed trust and a good relationship. I recognized that some situations he would just never be able to handle (ie.vets, crowds/over stimulation). The first step was raw to decrease anxiety. The next step was working through a lot of fears and having to think outside the box and find what worked for him because one size fits all training did not work.

You need to decide if you are "all in". This is not going to be easy or quick and you need to be willing to commit fully.

Or as others are quick to suggest...you could just put him down.


----------



## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

I am so sorry you are going through this. In my opinion this situation calls for a severe E Collar intervention. Before a one way visit to vet or his breeder (his breeder should absolutely make you take him back and give you another puppy), I would call one of few E Collar trainers who have used the tool as a last resort and really beg them to take on this case ASAP. 

Again I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I pray for the best outcome to your family and the dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The only way I would personally consider giving this dog any more time is if he could be put in an outdoor or in/out kennel so he can toilet, eat, drink, and be totally safely confined before the time of day that he becomes more dangerous until the next morning.

That way he can meet his own physical needs, he can get a drink, use the bathroom, and be totally left alone and not handled and your wife is safe.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is the dog's breeding?


You think this may be rank drive about going into the crate?


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

No. I was just wondering if the pedigree had any rhyme or reason to it vs. a breeding of a pedigree with unstable dogs or other aggression related issues. The dog just looked very unstable.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Why do you have this dog still in your home after the first attack on your wife? I am stunned. I think the dog really is sick in his brain. So many sane dogs never bite despite horrible treatment. You realize that you are legally pretty liable as professionals have seen this video?


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

To be completely honest, unlike most people here I guess, I couldn’t care less what the triggers are. This dog is unstable. This dog is unsafe. That level of aggression on his owners is 100% unacceptable and I wouldn’t put up with that for even five seconds longer. The only way I’d see it as even the tiniest bit okay is if this dog had a major medical issue and is in extreme pain. That said, there are loads of dogs in extreme pain that don’t attack their humans to the extent of harm or with the intention of killing. I wouldn’t feel safe with him in my home or in anyone else’s.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Inappropriate aggression? Yes. Trying to kill somebody? C'mon.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Inappropriate aggression? Yes. Trying to kill somebody? C'mon.


What do you think would have happened if that dog hadn’t had a muzzle on? His wife was lying down on the couch. The dog was at face level with perfect position to go for the throat, or at minimum the face. As has been reported before, he’s known for grabbing and shaking. What do you think would have happened if he grabbed her neck and shook? So yes. I could easily see that situation turning out terribly.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WNGD said:


> WTH is it with so many new biting/aggression threads in the last month? Is it my imagination or is this crazy escalation in frequency???


I predicted this when I saw the huge spike in new members getting Covid shutdown puppies six months ago or who got puppies earlier this year that didn’t get enough exposure due to the lockdowns. It’s happening with all breeds, but is unusually bad with new German Shepherd owners. The dogs are hitting the teen years and all #”$’ is breaking loose.


----------



## Dave2k20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Thank you for all your replies.

Our pup was fed on raw food from 16 weeks of age. Regarding treats at night, if we would try to give him a treat he would end up growling and again going into this aggressive behaviour. He would often reject food in this state.

After the first attack it was not caught on camera, we wanted to work through it and not give up so easily - the trainers didn't have full context and had nothing to see other than what we said. The second attack we showed, we did X-rays to see if it was pain related as recommended, it wasn't.. The time for these things to get done would have put myself and my wife at greater risk which is why the decision came to put him to sleep today.

I would like to thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate your time, questions and thoughts.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a crabby dog years ago who did something like that to me when I tried to pick him up. He went crazy and ripped clothing. He was 40 lbs and was in pain. We got him to the vet and treated, and it never happened again. I also stopped lifting him. After reading the explanations, it sounds like pain or extreme fear associated with something at night. There must be a reason, which you can only address if you figure out what it is. I would probably not keep a German Shepherd that young exhibiting that behavior, out of concern it will escalate.

Edit: I’m sorry, I posted the same time you did and didn’t see that you put him to sleep. That was a wise choice. I’m sorry for your loss.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Pytheis said:


> What do you think would have happened if that dog hadn’t had a muzzle on? His wife was lying down on the couch. The dog was at face level with perfect position to go for the throat, or at minimum the face. As has been reported before, he’s known for grabbing and shaking. What do you think would have happened if he grabbed her neck and shook? So yes. I could easily see that situation turning out terribly.


Are you familiar with what it looks like when a dog is really trying to kill a human? I am. This dog isn't even remotely there by that video or by OP's words. When you think about it, when this dog did bite his wife unmuzzled, all he did was leave teethmarks, no bite wounds, which demonstrates remarkable bite inhibition. 

Don't get me wrong... I don't think OP is capable of handling this dog and that is a huge part of the problem.. and nobody who can handle this dog is looking for a project dog leaving little hope for this dog.. but from the information available.. I am not totally convinced that this dog is a lost cause... although if his only option, which it seems to be, is to stay in his current home, I am in agreement that this family would not be safe.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Why is a dog more important than a spouse? He might not have tried to kill but easily could have and will at some point. Would that be ok by your standards? I honestly don't understand the fact that the advice of putting him down is the minority here. OP you should send this video to Ian Dunbar, a well known and respected animal behaviorist.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Why is a dog more important than a spouse? He might not have tried to kill but easily could have and will at some point. Would that be ok by your standards?


I hope you aren't responding to my post because nowhere did I say such foolishness.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

The dog was put down today per the OP. Please be respectful and sensitive to that should you feel the need to continue this discussion.


> ...which is why the decision came to put him to sleep today.
> 
> I would like to thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate your time, questions and thoughts.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It's the minority here because it once was the voice of the majority and garnered this forum quite the reputation for calling for the deaths of many dogs. Sometimes the only crimes committed by the dog were being a German Shepherd. I was personally involved with one on here. Long story short, where the OP posted that she had a euthanasia appointment scheduled was able to be changed to her coming back several months later to report that she changed her outlook and behavior and that the dog was now a great family fit.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am sorry for the entire situation, also for the dog himself, who responded to whatever triggered his behavior by his animal instinct and reflexes. But ultimately the family decided to be safe. I think they have gone out of their way and beyond to understand the dog. Heal well.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Dave2k20 said:


> Thank you for all your replies.
> 
> Our pup was fed on raw food from 16 weeks of age. Regarding treats at night, if we would try to give him a treat he would end up growling and again going into this aggressive behaviour. He would often reject food in this state.
> 
> ...


So he is gone? If so or if you are about to, my heart goes out to you and the dog.

I'm very sorry that all of you had to go thru this. Wish you peace and healing.


----------



## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I am so sorry, this has to be one of the saddest moments for you.


----------



## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

Gutted for you and your wife. This is such a sad story. FYI I think you made the right choice.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I’m so sorry you had to make such a hard decision and ultimately lose a dog you obviously cared for a lot. Be kind to yourselves in dealing with this.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Obviously a sad situation all around. I think the discussion is worth continuing because of the circumstances which are unusual - ie, only happening at a given time of day, no pain related cause detected, etc. It is helpful for people to know things like this happen and are not understood. 

That is not to criticize the humans involved for the decision to euthanize the dog.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There is always a reason but dogs can’t talk and so it’s up to us to solve the puzzle, if it’s solvable. This situation looked impossible given the tools and help they had availiable. The only advice I can offer to the next person who has a similar situation is to ask for help or get a trainer the first time they see even a hint of unexplained or potentially dangerous behavior. It can’t stop everything but it can keep it from escalating. This is not a criticism of the OP. It’s a suggestion for someone who might see this thread and realize they have a similar situation brewing. I had never had even a remotely aggressive dog before that incident I mentioned, but there were signs I missed that I saw afterwards. My dog hated being carried but there were times I needed to move him over a stationary barricade rather than dismantle it every time, so I did it anyway. After he went off on me, I had to move the barricade every time I moved him, so I could have done that sooner. He went willingly as long as he was not lifted.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It would be interesting to know if something was wrong in it's brain. Has the OP considered an autopsy? Maybe a vet school would be interested. And knowing more may be helpful in the grieving.


----------



## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I’m interested in the genetics. I’m curious to know if this is handler error or weak genetics. Maybe a bit of both.

I’ve never had a dog that attacked the immediate family. I can deal with stranger aggression but I draw the line at attacking family members. I get resource guarding. That’s not really what I’m referring to. This dog whipped around and attacked the wife who just repositioned herself on the couch. 

Given how unstable the dog is and that re-homing isn’t a viable/safe option, I didn’t see another alternative aside from putting the dog down. The owners shouldn’t have to live in fear. I don’t think stable dogs attack their pack that way. It was so inappropriate.

I was attacked as a child by a dog that was abused. I almost died. At that point, I don’t care why the dog was unstable. It just was and the owners weren’t responsible enough to protect me at their own house. The dog ended up being euthanized anyway. 

I‘m usually the biggest advocate of dogs. I worked at a rescue and fostered many an aggressive breed. I’ve dealt with resource guarding and inappropriate behavior. I’ve taken in dogs nobody would deal with. This dog was only 11 months old and reacting like that to a family member he’s known since 8 weeks old.

Maybe a better trainer/handler could have turned this dog around. But I didn‘t see that option available. Not that many volunteers for a dog like this. My heart breaks for the dog and the family. There are no winners here. 😢


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I truly appreciate your effort and the live you had for your boy.

I have dealt with and consulted on several cases like this. It's always a tough call, and I never fault anytime for putting a dangerous dog down. The last consultation lasted a year and resulted in the dog being PTS. 

Such a tough situation. I'm glad no one was seriously injured.


----------



## Whfoster (Apr 8, 2020)

Dave2k20 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I have really been struggling with our 11 month GSD. During the day he is good as gold, following commands, being his playful self. Over the past month and half we have noticed our pup getting quite aggressive at night - at first we thought this was guarding behaviour, but tonight realised this is not the case as he had absolutely nothing to guard.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry you are going through this. I had a German Shepherd from a very reputable breeder. I got him as a puppy. He was heavily bonded to me. At about 1 year he began acting aggressive towards my daughter. She never did anything to him. I tried everything. She would come down the stairs and he would lunge at her. It was a nightmare. I spent thousands of dollars trying to "fix" him. I loved him dearly, but this was an extremely unsafe environment for my daughter. A few trainers said the he was unstable with weak nerves. I couldn't even give him away because I didn't trust him with another family. Long story short, I had to put him down. The vet said that some dogs are just sick. I am still sick about it to this day. It was a hard decision, but it was the only choice I had to be sure no one was ever hurt by him. I even tried a local police department and they didn't want him. He had great papers and stellar parents, but he wasn't right in the head. Once again, I'm sorry for what you're dealing with. The only other suggestion I have is that someone really needs to step up and be the leader in the house. Try to be very strict with him and make him earn everything. Food, attention, etc.


----------



## Donna L. Yavelak (Nov 18, 2019)

Dave2k20 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I have really been struggling with our 11 month GSD. During the day he is good as gold, following commands, being his playful self. Over the past month and half we have noticed our pup getting quite aggressive at night - at first we thought this was guarding behaviour, but tonight realised this is not the case as he had absolutely nothing to guard.
> 
> ...


I could not watch the video since it was not available to see, but I would ask some behaviorists to recommend some good vets that specialize in psychiatric beahviors and meds. Mine had been abused and destructive and he was on Prozac and Trazadone, and then changed to Zoloft. After all the waiting he is finally stable enough. He gets excited at night and play bites and gets rambunxious but no longer destructive. He needs Prozac or some other meds . They take time to access to please do that and see if there is a training facility that is highly recommended for aggressiveness that does not mistreat the dog. Please see if he can be on meds for a while and be at a facility training while away from your family.


----------



## Donna L. Yavelak (Nov 18, 2019)

3 Reasons Why Your Dog is Acting Aggressive at Night


.
Night aggression


----------



## Donna L. Yavelak (Nov 18, 2019)

EgansMom said:


> I am getting fear reactive not guarding. If he was poorly bred he may have high anxiety.
> If that's the case confinement/anticipation of may send his anxiety over the top. Even just evening time brings an increase in anxiety.
> What you percieve as normal . ie. your wife moving behind him...he perceives as a life or death threat. This is not behavioral and you won't be able to work with him behaviorally till he is chemically more stable. I do NOT recommend using training methods that increase fear and anxiety. Taking an aggressive approach will backfire.
> 1. switch to raw feeding and lose the carbs and grains which can contribute to mood instability via blood sugar.
> ...


I agree with loosing the kennel. My 3rd Shepherd used to do the same thing only at a few months old. She was a strong resource guarder and I could not get near her food or her crate. Well I started with the food and stopped feeding my two in the bowls, They sat side by side and I fed them canned food out of a spoon, one then the other back and forth to know it comes from me. After only a week I separated the bowls and fed them and all of a sudden I was able to even take food out of the aggresive one's mouth. We also would notice when she would guard a section of the room and claim under the desk area. So we rearranged the room and it totally threw her off and stopped that.


Dave2k20 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I have really been struggling with our 11 month GSD. During the day he is good as gold, following commands, being his playful self. Over the past month and half we have noticed our pup getting quite aggressive at night - at first we thought this was guarding behaviour, but tonight realised this is not the case as he had absolutely nothing to guard.
> 
> ...


_Oh, I am so sorry! I had not red all the way to the end of this thread. You did what you could and you have to protect your family. It must have been an excruciating decision but you had to do what you had to do. Take some time off and heal. _


----------

