# Is this resource guarding? Dominant behaviour? Out of ideas



## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

I have searched, I have read, I can't decide what approach is applicable in my specific situation. So here goes:

Oso is our 15 month old _mostly _GSD, we adopted him 5 weeks ago. He was with a couple since a pup before they split up and he went to the shelter where he his balls were removed 6 weeks ago. His original origins are unknown. He's sometimes timid but getting better, super smart and great fun. We love him.

I work from home, he immediately bonded to me (even before we got home). I've been working on lots of behaviours, but there is one that I can't seem to solve. He doesn't trust/is aggressive towards my wife and it doesn't seem to be getting better. 

When we got him, he was pretty nervous around the house but behaved well. He would sometimes grumble as you walk past his bed but we ignored him and he got more trusting. But then as time went by, he started getting worse at guarding his bed against my wife, and after 2 weeks it escalated into snarling and occasionally running towards her aggressively. With the bed removed, it would be the rug he was lying on etc. At this point we realised it wasn't just a case of waiting for him to settle in.

So we upped the attempts to teach him to trust her, she is the only one that gives him "high value" treats (hot dog chunks). And she'll throw them to him when he's just chilling on his bed, or give them to him when she walks past. He seemed to be getting better, a few days went by with no growling. He'll roll over for her on command, and listen to other commands well also. 

Now is a good time to mention when she is here, it's always her who feeds him. She's been able to take bones from him that he finds in the bushes without a problem, in fact we've never had any problems outside the house. And 80% of the behaviour is when he's tired in the evening, or sleepy in the mornings. During that time he will sometimes appear afraid of me too (ears back, head down etc). We have never told him off for growling, only rewarded him for looking chilled on his bed and not growling. When he was growling we were just walking past or walking away not reacting. I did shout "down" to him twice when he ran 10m across the room barking and snarling straight at my wife, but resisted the urge to scold him.

Then this morning, as she got back from work (she's a nurse and worked a night shift) he sees her outside and runs at the door snarling and barking, much more aggressively than he does when strangers approach. Before this we wondered if eye sight was a factor, or tiredness, but I had woken him up to and got him alert with tricks and treats in advance of her arrival trying to prevent this and it was broad daylight.

So it keeps feeling like it's getting better, then suddenly it happens again and often worse than before. He hasn't bitten, just snapped/snarling/barking as a warning. Usually we can see when he's in this mood, but sometimes it comes out of nowhere.

Initially we were approaching it as resource guarding, and it does seem worse when he has a toy or his bed it out. We don't take things away when he's got things unless it is an exchange with a treat then giving it right back. 

He still barks at strangers (working on it), and it's much more likely he'll bark if it's a girl. We don't know what his history was like, but there could be an unsavoury lady involved perhaps.
*
Anyone got any ideas to solve this? *

I don't think it's jealousy, he never tries to get between us and it isn't when she approaches me. We thought it was location guarding and it might still be, but we don't understand why it is escalating still. We're not snatching anything away from him ever, we've only been kind to him even when he makes us scared and mad. Maybe it's getting worse as he becomes more comfortable in the house? But it's been a while now and he's perfectly settled when it's just me around. 

Thank you everyone for any helpful input in advance!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It doesn't sound like a space or toy issue, it sounds pretty specific to your wife. I know you mentioned strangers too, but thats not really a major problem to me. You touched on something I would have thought of, he got more trusting when we ignored him. Could be she's understandably afraid of him. That can trigger suspicion and a fearful reaction from some dogs. Could be she's trying so hard to earn trust, its still overwhelming for him. My only advice would be keep him away from your wife . I'm not saying that to be funny or insulting. I'm just not real big on trying to alter a dogs temperament. You can change their perception of things in some ways, but from what you're saying, I think this is a little beyond that.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Another thought is to stop rewarding him when he's on the bed or rug.He might appear chill but still be in the wrong mindset and you're inadvertently reinforcing it.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Could you hire a trainer experienced w/working breeds to evaluate the situation in person?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would crate him until you figure out what to do. It may enhance the problem but your wife deserves to be safe in her own home. I would also get your wife and dog involved with some serious obedience training with someone that really knows what they are doing and then reassess.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

People often are too soft on adopted dogs. Or are afraid of them once they get them home and there is no one from the shelter handling the dog for you.

I know a lot of people are also into rewarding good behaviors only (positive training). I believe a dog needs both the positive when displaying good behavior, and corrections when they are being butt heads. Whether that be a firm vocal no, remove the dog from the situation in a “time out,” or a physical correction if the behavior warrants it. I train with a balance of positive training, and corrective training. 

How long have you had the dog? 

I’d start out with ignoring the dog altogether when he displays this behavior. Not just your wife, but also you. No attention besides feeding and bathroom breaks, and keep those all business. When he/she seeks attention, tell him to go lay down. He hasn’t earned your attention yet. After a day or two, if he is still displaying this behavior, get into his space physically while giving him the back command. Keeping walking him back until he looks away or moves away on his own. This one will likely cause some disagreement on the forum. I’m not a professional trainer, just stating what has worked with my fosters and rescues. 

Don’t amp the dog up with treats and training before your wife gets home. That’s counterproductive. He’s in a heightened state when you do that, which makes him more aware of your wife. If he starts growling or showing signs of bad behavior, get in his space again and back him up. Once he starts moving on his own, give him a command to sit/stay. Not sure how much he’s trained on those, but if he rolls over he’s likely been trained to sit/stay. 

And as a previous member stated, stop having the wife throwing treats at him. Until you know his language well, you may very well be having your wife reward bad behaviors, continuing the cycle, and increasing his reactions to her. 

15 months is still a puppy, GSD’s don’t mature until around 2-3yrs. You’ve got to mold the behaviors you want while he is still young enough to be moldable. 

Invest in a plastic crate, or a wire metal one with a cover. Crate the dog before your wife gets home, and don’t let him out until he’s in a calm settled mood. 

He is likely sensing your wife’s fear of him, and that puts him in a fight or flight mode. He is choosing the fight mode. Don’t give him the choice, make that choice for him. If he is reacting negatively to your wife, crate him or put him out back (if you have a fenced yard), and again, allow him out/in when the calm and settled behavior happens. I wouldn’t offer any treats to any of these scenarios. His treat is getting to be with you when he displays the proper behavior.

Once your wife is more comfortable, have her do the things above. Remind her he is a puppy in a grown body. His mind does not match his size. Sure, they look very scary, but what he is showing is lack of confidence (based on your descriptions). 

And of course, a good trainer that has experience with the breed is always recommended. They can have eyes on the dog that we don’t have over a forum post. Just be careful in who you chose as a trainer. Find one that balances praise and correction. One extreme or the other can ruin the dog. 

Most importantly, aside from the trainer, is to get it out of both yours and your wife’s head that he had a bad history with women, don’t go down that what if road. He could have just as easily been a great dog, and was surrendered due to death, poor health, a divorce, or military being shipped overseas. 

You’ll likely get a ton of great advice here, wade through it all and pick what works for your situation. There isn’t a one correct way to handle or train in this situation. Good luck, and we all love pictures if you care to share!


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

OP in your shoes I'd suggest doing a lot of research... and get a trainer or a behaviorist to come to your home and put a fresh pair of eyes on the situation...reading your thread sounds like you're doing many of the "right" things but some times a different perspective may see something obvious that you're missing... but again any one can call themselves a trainer.. there's no regulation so you'll need to do the homework and check their reputation...whether or not it's successful hinges on the time you spend finding a "good" trainer........



As you said when we don't know a dogs history it can be a challenge figuring out what the root of a dogs "behavior" really is-it very well may come from a female in his past who looks like--dresses like or walks/ talks like your wife....again new eyes may see something obvious.....


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would bring him back to the shelter unless your aim was to start a long, possibly risky project with mixed results. A shelter should not adopt a dog out like that. Is there a temperament test report on him from the shelter?
One of our local shelters cranks out dogs like him, causing similar heartaches. They come in loads out of sates where they are deemed unadoptable. So the shelter has these 'rescue transports' and people adopt them. Good business for the trainers though.
Can you post a picture so we can see what 'mostly GSD' looks like?


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Firstly, thanks everyone for helpful and positive replies, it's clearly a great community here.

Secondly, pictures should be attached! Try not to fall in love with him too hard =D GSD/Rottie? Or a small part Lab maybe? He has a short single coat and massive head and paws.

Steve Strom, my wife is doing a really great job of staying calm, giving him attention when he asks for it by sitting and making eye contact. Not overwhelming him just frequent and (we think) appropriate treats to gain trust and so he knows when she approaches it isn't something to be scared by. Understandably she sometimes gets frustrated/upset with him after she's been working in the emergency ward for 12 hours overnight and comes home in the morning to a butt head dog (and husband but I'm a lost cause). If we can't get him to accept her, then we'll be unable to keep him. We like camping, travelling, we need to mesh all three of us and I believe it is still possible. It's early days still and he's young. I've seen big changes in lots of behaviours and he was somewhat like this with me sometimes before, didn't like his head being grabbed or foot held onto or giving up a toy. But now with me he's great and nothing bothers him so I believe in him getting there with my wife too. 

dogma13, this is true, our thoughts were if his ears are up and he's just watching then she'll give a treat as she passes to teach him that her approaching isn't a threat. If he looks scared we ignore him and walk by carefully. But we'll give it some thought thank you.

sebrench, there's a trainer who used to show Belgian Shepards nearby, I'm trying to get in contact with them as they're supposed to be very good.

MineAreWorkingLine, unfortunately we don't have and don't want a crate if we can help it. We live really lightly and don't like to accumulate stuff if we can avoid it, but it is an option.

Jchrest, we've had him just 5 weeks, and have been avoiding correcting him mainly because we've assumed it's a fear reflex and don't want to make that worse, or "prove him right" that we are scary and need to be kept away. But with other behaviours such as chasing animals etc, if appropriate, we will correct him as required. The "amping up" was more to get him moving around as the problem seemed worst when he was sleepy/tired. He wasn't a bundle of energy but rather just switched on ready for the day. In fact, when he's stoked for food etc he has never been bad with anyone, and if a stranger has a treat he's their best friend immediately (so I've been passing treats to new people). He was surrendered because a relationship broke down and the man couldn't keep him as he had a job. I wasn't trying to make excuses, just observing that he isn't as fearful with men as he is with woman. And he does seem more fearful when people are in a rush, such as preparing for work etc. So he is probably sensing something isn't right with my wife prepping for her shift maybe.

Shane'sDad, I've been doing a bunch but was running out of ideas so I put it out to you great folks! Thanks for your advice

wolfy dog, The shelter is good, it's the BC SPCA here in Canada. They did a temperament report, and we were aware he was pretty timid for his size. But we believe in him, but if it really really doesn't work out we do have that option. 

Thanks again everyone, he was very good today and more relaxed around my wife than he has been before, no growling or scared behaviour at all. But we've been lulled into thinking it's getting better before then suddenly.... Will keep this thread updated and keep trying to get a trainer who knows their shizzle!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, this sounds terrifying for your wife!

I agree with the suggestions of having a trainer/behaviorist evaluate - that's what I would do...then you can get a (hopefully) expert opinion on whether his behavior is dominant or fearful or fear-aggressive. His behavior actually doesn't sound "dominant" to me (like you describe that he sometimes seems fearful and has his head down/ears down)? But it's hard to tell what's really going on!

My dog, although never to that point, did have a really strong preference for me and preferred to have nothing at all to do with my husband. A few times when my husband approached him and he was laying in a corner, he growled. He did that to his foster mom's husband as well (she warned us). And he growled at my husband for moving his dog bed, whereas I was free to drag his bed all over the house (who knows why). Anyway we evened up the preference a lot by having my husband hold his dinner bowl and command "Sit" and after he Sat, my husband put down the bowl. My husband also brought him in the car and took him for long walks in new places. Things are better now...even though my dog remains fixated on me as his One, he accepts my husband as Runner-Up. One thought is that instead of dispensing hot dog when walking by, your wife could ask for a behavior (like, "Come" or "Sit") and then give the hot dog i.e. have the dog "work" for her daily...?

And I've got to hand it to her, I would have already asked to return the dog by now! It sounds very scary to get rushed at by a snarling barking GSD when you come home! I agree with crating if necessary so your dog can avoid making that into a habit.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

I agree with Wolfy. This sounds like a very difficult years-long project. This dog appears to have significant anxiety issues. You can’t just train those away in a few sessions. You’re talking a long term expensive commitment. 

Something in your home may be triggering the dog. If I had to guess, it might be hospital/healthcare smells that come home with your wife. He may do extremely well in almost any other home. But it seems to me that your wife could become in danger.

Please note (and this is important) : Please don’t try to correct anxious behavior. If a child is afraid to get on an elevator, we don’t correct her with punishments (no matter how minor we think they are). We try to help her through her fear. Punishing anxious behavior simply amps up anxiety.

You *may* see a temporary cessation in offending growling & barking if you punish these warning behaviors.. You’ve also destroyed your warning system. Dogs are social animals and warn us when they’re uncomfortable. If we punish warning behaviors, that’s how you get the dog where “he just bit from out of nowhere.” No, you destroyed his ability to earn you.

Many trainers (& some owners) think they understand standard obedience and that techniques that sort of work on essentially stable dogs can work on anxious dogs. They often ruin these dogs and can create nightmare situations. 

Ok, that said, if you do opt to keep him, I strongly suggest a veterinary behaviorist. That’s a board certified veterinarian that specializes in behavior. Essentially a canine psychiatrist. Meds may help this dog, but I think you need a specialist to manage his case, not a regular veterinarian. 

I also strongly recommend a trainer that is *certified* in Grisha Stewart’s BAT. 

If I had this dog, I would take the risk of keeping him seriously. 

To be honest, I wouldn’t keep him in your situation. 

Finally, as you can see, it’s not “dominance.” It is resource guarding but it’s much much more. 

Good luck to you & your wife.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

5 weeks into a new home. The dog is still figuring things out. Just live your lives like you want to. Come and go as you please. If the dog throws a fit, ignore it. Don't over think this. Show the dog what normal looks like. Don't feel sorry for him. Don't worry about him. This is today and not whenever bad stuff may or may not have happened.

Have the wife feed him, groom him, let him outside and back in, have her interact in ways that build trust. Fun stuff.

Anecdotal story alert:
Our newest addition is a male Cane Corso, 2 years old. Bite history. Hates men. Bit a kid.

It's supposed to be a foster situation, because no one adopts a 120 pound dog that bites people without some type of intervention. For the first time ever, this dog immediately bonds with the wife and doesn't like me. At all. He would charge me when I came in the door. When he heard me leave my bedroom he would charge me and circle me until I ment back in my room (we sleep separately because I don't sleep much and she snores). He would also guard the wife from me and try and separate us.

I knew from day 2 that the dog was staying. He LOVES the wife and she LOVES him.

I didn't try and win him over. I didn't feel sorry for him (he was severely beaten a couple of times). I just went about my day. If he was good, I acknowledged him in a positive way. If he charged me, I didn't care. I would walk right into him ignoring him completely. Look dude, you don't scare me, and I'm not going to hurt you. 

I did walk backwards around my kitchen island with hotdogs in both my hands for 15 minutes until he ate one. That's was early on when I thought I could bribe him. He's a patient dog and it didn't really work. It took time and patience.

What I ultimately did was show him that he could trust me by not being fake. You can't lie to dogs. I just went about my business and when he decided to approach me and want some interaction, I gave it to him. I think the most important thing is that I was consistent and predictable. I really didn't care about his outbursts and if he approached me I was nice but not fake. Again, you can't lie to dogs.

Fast forward 11 months and we're supreme buddies. He sleeps with the wife, but we spend some QT together every day. He comes in my room after he goes outside to pee first thing every morning and we hang out for 20 minutes or so being manly friends, wresting and doing manly dog things. He's a fantastic and totally goofy dog that is relaxed and trusts me 100%. 

It really did take time and consistency. She can't be fake with the dog. She just needs to go about her day and ignore him unless he's interested in a positive way. Don't make a big production of things. Hey dog, this is normal. Fit in.

Dogs know when you are faking it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m so surprised to see members jumping on the return to shelter band wagon.

It’s not an issue I would return for. I’ve dealt with worse. There are no children in the home, the “threat” to the wife is likely a bluff, and if given the opportunity to get to the wife during one of these rushes, he likely wouldn’t bite. He’s trying to see if he can scare her away because he’s not confident in her. 

And I’m sorry, but you can correct a dog with bad nerves without ruining the dog. It depends greatly on how it’s done, but letting any dog get away with poor behavior is going to end up with a dog who knows they can push their owners boundaries. 

A correction is as easy as a “no” and ignore. I’m not talking physical corrections of pinning or rolling a dog, I agree, that type of correction will likely backfire. But a body bump when the dog is in your space, with a “move” command is far different. A correction can be moving the dog to a different location and not paying attention to him when he whines or wants back in the room with you. 

If a teenager yelled at me, I wouldn’t wait for it to stop yelling at me so I could give her a cupcake when she was done yelling. You stop the bad behavior immediately. You “punish” the teenager for yelling or talking back, and in this day and age, it’s generally a grounding, a removal of electronic devices, or additional chores. 

Same with a dog, don’t just sit around waiting for good behavior to randomly occur. Show the dog that good behaviors you’ve asked of him are rewarded, and the bad behaviors he displays is bad behavior through correction. Like I said earlier, no affection from anyone while he is being a butt head. Interactions being business like as far as feeding and bathroom breaks, but no affectionate or play while he is being a butthead. 

OP, my rescue I have now came to me at an estimated age of 2-4yrs. She was never socialized with humans beyond feeding, she was chained to a chain link fence, and was used as a breeding bitch. The only interaction she had with other dogs was when one was brought to her for mating. She was a wholly terror when I got her. I still have the scars up my arms from her coming up the leash and attacking my arms. Teeth, claws, hackles raised, lip pulled back. She didn’t do this because she was aggressive, she did it because she was scared, and wasn’t sure what behaviors were okay and which ones were not, because she had never been shown. I worked with her alone for awhile, and realized at one point, I could only take her so far myself, so I hired a trainer, and we worked with her for a little over a year. I had gotten her past the scared stage, and basic commands on home turf, but she was still very leash reactive and dog aggressive when outside on walks. This is what we worked on. 

It wasn’t exhausting, I didn’t cry myself to sleep at night. And I wasn’t scared of her. It didn’t take over my entire life, just an hour to two hours a day, twice a week with a trainer to get her to the point where I could walk her without fear that she would pull me down and take off after another dog. I also learned management. She’s never going to be 100%, and some people still cause her fear aggression to pop up. We don’t allow anyone inside into she is put up in her room, because we found that fear aggression went away when she saw me interacting with the person, and the person ignored her. She would calm and settle, and then I would open the gate to let her decide if she wanted to great the guest, or stay in her safe zone. People make management seem like this daunting task, when it’s not. Most of the management with her is something I would do with any dog. How many people truly enjoy getting rushed and sniffed by their friends or families pet as soon as they walk in the door? Not many. 

She successfully lives with me, my 2 young girls, my DH, and his two daughters. We also have a 2yr old unaltered male Husky/GSD mix, and recently added a puppy, now 5 months old, and unaltered. The only issue we have had with lyka is that when the dogs blow their coats, the stepdaughters have to take allergy meds. This is a dog that used to tear my arms to shreds out of fear, and would bite any dog that got near her. She now lives happily with 2 other dogs. We do crate and rotate, but she gets one on one time with the dogs separately, and always gets one on one time with me. All the dogs do. 

Can I take her into a pet store with other animals? No. Can I take her to a dog park? No. Can I trust her 100% to be off leash around a crowd of people? No. But I can and do cuddle with her on hen floor. She loves just following me around the house to see what I’m doing. She gives kisses I would rather not get, but put up with them because she loves me. She is honestly one of my favorite dogs I’ve owned, fostered, or rehabilitated before turning them over to an obedience trainer. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat to turn back the time to get more time with her. She was poorly bred, poorly raised, and poorly used prior to me, so she is facing health issues right now that break my heart to see. That is my only regret, not getting her sooner.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

On a light note:
a few weeks after we got our dog, I was on the phone with my Mom.
"How's the dog?" she said.
I said, "Ugh, he's having some diarrhea."
She said, "Diarrhea?!! Return the dog to the shelter!"

So you see...different people have different levels of tolerance...


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> On a light note:
> a few weeks after we got our dog, I was on the phone with my Mom.
> "How's the dog?" she said.
> I said, "Ugh, he's having some diarrhea."
> ...


I can’t stop laughing. That is just too funny. I have threatened DH to take Crios to the “dog farm” when he was pulling his escape artist trick every day for a week, but it was all in jest. We built the gate to allow us to get to the front door with a barrier, so the dogs (mainly Crios) never have access to the front door unless we allow it. 

But I see your point, people have different thresholds as much as dogs do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Making eye contact? I hope only briefly and breaking it off as eye contact is viewed as a challenge / threat.

In the meantime, if you are feeding kibble, your wife should hand feed him each and every piece. Right now, all food should come hand fed from her.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, can you post his temperament report form the shelter? Ideally objectively describing behavior to stimuli without interpreting it. 
I based my take on returning him on the OP's post. I don't do this easily. This dog requires a very experienced, committed and consistent owner. OP has to work with a good trainer who doesn't just use the food rewards. It is probably his last change in life but OP, this will be another 10 years. If you are up for it, go for it. Of course I hope he will be a success story.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

GSDchoice, I showed her your comment and she appreciates your sympathy and the hopeful story of your pup learning to at least like your husband! I wish it was that way round with this dog as I have a lot more time to work on him than she does. 

4K9Mom, we have been doing our absolute best to avoid "telling off" the behaviour, and we have 100% not made him feel wrong for growling when he's on his bed. When he's up and rushing or barking at her close, I will shout a command like "down" or summon him to me with "come" in a very "I MEAN IT" kind of way. He listens, does what he is told but remains in a really strange frame of mind. Thank you for the tips.

David Winners, great to hear a positive story! That's a lot of dog to handle kudos to you for that patience. One reason we'd really like to sort this out fast is that we live on a big property (big field, large pen, nice creek with a bridge), but in a smaller suite that is kind of one big room. So unfortunately that makes it a little harder to avoid him and impossible when he's being a pain in the butt. Plus we don't know if it will escalate yet beyond "threatening". 

Jchrest, I completely understand your correction suggestions and it's great to hear another story of rehabilitation. To me it feels to me like a fine line we're treading between punishing his behaviour making him more fearful and stopping him warning us before biting, or "proving him right" in any way. We have been attempting to ignore him any time he was scared or growling, but the rushing and snarling/barking is quite terrifying and just out of nowhere sometimes and I've been the one shouting the commands. We need a expert who can tell us how we should react in this exact scenario I think, because any guessing could take us down the wrong path.

GSDchoice, YUK, diarrhoea? I think you're mom's right time to claim warranty. 

MineAreWorkingLine, yes it isn't aggressive stare down, just making sure his attention is on us and not the food in the hand or distraction elsewhere. Don't worry, we're not making that rookie error! 

wolfy dog, I have attached what we received, it certainly isn't thorough and I don't think he would have displayed this behaviour in their care. He was only there 1 week, and it took longer than that in our house for the full behaviour to become apparent. I still have faith in him, in every other way he is a good dog and easy to train. But alas, time will tell.

Anyone got any guesses to the mix from the photos below/above however it appears?

*I made a huge mistake.* Stupidly, I thought it would help if I put his bed (which I had removed for the last week) deep into the closet so he had his own space to feel comfortable, but it was stupid and I can see why it was an error now, so obviously. Given he had "his own space" it was something to guard again, and he came charging out of the closet as my wife went to the bathroom last night teeth bared and stood in front of her barking and snarling. I called him away and made him lie on a rug in another room. While she was then in the bathroom he ran back to the door and stood outside growling. I called him back away, and while he obeyed and "stayed" I closed the closet door to keep him away. This is tough. She didn't flinch, she didn't run away, just stood there looking at him. But she is scared, and of course she is who wouldn't be. **** dog =(

Right now she is walking him somewhere fun, and she fed him his whole breakfast by hand only when he did what he was told (which he does very reliably when food is involved).

Time to try and get through to those behaviourists again!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

As to my guess in mix, I would say Rottweiler. 

You said when he charged your wife when she got up to use the bathroom, she was just looking at him? Looking, staring? Or just a quick glimpse?

If you want to keep the dog, get a trainer ASAP. Or contact the aspca, let them know the troubles you’re having, see if someone their that did the temperament test could explain the difference in the test vs real life. They may even be willing to send someone, or recommend someone to assess the dog in your home environment. 

It is definitely increasing, is there anyway you can take video of him being his normal self, and then one of him acting defensively? We may be able to help very short term until you can get a trainer in ASAP.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Why is he sleeping loose at night? Crate him. 

The more he practices this, the more he'll do it. He knows she is scared of him, some dogs enjoy scaring people. Bit of a rush for them. 

Forget the behaviorist. Find a qualified trainer who is balanced. People on the forum might have suggestions. This is probably a pretty quick fix, but it needs to be done yesterday.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

OP after reading your last post kudos to your wife considering what happened considering what happened in the middle of the night.....you said...."Right now she is walking him somewhere fun, and she fed him his whole breakfast by hand only when he did what he was told (which he does very reliably when food is involved)"--many folks would just give up on the dog...sounds like you know which direction you're heading as far as a trainer.....again a third pair of trained eyes can make a big difference....keep us updated......


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, thank you for the report. Seems an honest assessment and not a fluffy description like "he loves his own toys". Just curious which test they used. What I don't understand is that the shelter offered him for adoption with this assessment unless they know that he goes to a knowledgeable home. Most people just want to heave a nice pet and one shelter, where I volunteered used that as a yardstick to put them up for adoption or not (=euthanasia) Were you counseled before you took him home? What were your thoughts when you read the report?


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Jchrest, she walked over without looking at him, then was keeping an eye on him as he stood there 2 feet away barking and snarling. For the 3 seconds before I reacted and called him to me. I have been in touch with the SPCA and spoke to the lady whom dealt with our adoption. She is forwarding all the details onto their specialist and behaviourist and will be back in touch soon. And I have tried again to contact the three local trainers/behaviourists we have here. 

Saco, because we don't have, and don't want, a crate. If that is what it takes then we'll get one, but it isn't going to solve the problem as far as I can see. He'll just defend the crate whereas he has nothing to defend right now because all the space is "ours". I hope that makes sense? 

Shane'sDad, thank you, she's a tough cookie. A nurse in the Emergency Ward, putting up with this unreasonably behaved dog and worst of all, married to ME! Wowza, where did I find her you ask, in a pub is the answer haha

wolfy dog, we had to fill in an application form with lots of details, we both grew up with dogs we knew a rescue wasn't going to be perfect. We almost adopted half a dozen different dogs on our honeymoon driving to South America, so many street dogs, some so cute, some so sick. So we weren't afraid of having to put the effort in to sculpt a rescue into out buddy. Whilst I know you're interested in how we came to adopt him, and if we were prepared, but it's kind of moot at this point. At least we were more prepared than snatching one off the streets of Colombia into a van!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thank you Whom. Glad you are sticking around. I am looking forward to updates as it is interesting to me how this will go. Since you are committed to him I am giving you some tips that have been proven helpful in my work as pet dog trainer in people's homes: 
as for now in the meantime, I would completely ignore him; when he comes up to you, you look the other way or leave. It will make him want to connect more as you are showing him leadership in dog language. Put his food down (feed twice a day) when he is in another room to avoid conflict. Then let him back in while you don't even look at him. Remove the bowl when he is not present (you own the bowl so don't leave it out)
Do not give in to play initiation as he is taking the initiative and again, ignore him. This is only to establish your position towards him. Later, when everything is good, all these tips will be history (hopefully).
I think you are right in not crating him to avoid territorial behavior. If he is OK on leash, I would leash him, inside and outside and let him follow you, no matter if you just get up to get coffee or anything. Going to the bathroom I would take the leash with me (slide it under the door) while he was still attached on the other side of the door. Coming back, still ignore him. How do you manage him at night?
By the way by ignoring I mean: not looking, talking or touching him. I have learned this from my own teacher dog when we had four dogs with him as the ultimate great and fair leader. Hope this helps a bit.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Where are you located? PM me if you prefer.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I suggested crating so your wife can go to the bathroom at night in peace. I am concerned the behavior will escalate and if the dog bites your wife you all lose big time. A crate, introduced properly (lots of information available on how to do that) will keep everyone safe until an experienced trainer can step in. An x-pen is another option. 

I'm not trying to be a fear monger but if Oso does bite your wife, it will probably mean a death sentence for him. 

This dog is very new to the home, so give him a chance to settle without something irreversible happening.

I can't really tell if the dog is unstable or just insecure and fearful - but it doesn't matter because I still think a crate will at least keep everyone safe at night, when your wife comes home, etc. 

I admire your investment in this dog, and commitment to him. I hope you can find some good hands-on help.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I second the crate option. Yes, he may resource guard the crate, but he would be inside it, which means no rushing your wife. It’s easier to correct resource guarding of a crate than it would be to try and save his life if he does bite the wife. I always put my children and DH’s safety before my dogs. They are 3rd in the chain of importance to me. You having no children is why I am pro rehabilitate on this one, because there are no children to worry about while you are looking for a trainer. 

Crates actually create a safe environment for dogs. If they find themselves getting stressed, scared, or just plain tired, they will willing go into their crate. We keep Crios and Seiran’s crates open when they are not being used, and it’s often where I will find them having a nap or chewing on a high value treat. Dogs are den animals, a crate recreates the den feeling, and can calm down dogs who are frightened, who don’t know how to turn “off” on their own, and who craves a space just for them. 

We aren’t suggesting he be crated 24/7, just overnight. That way your wife can use the restroom without being lunged at and growled over. Just the peace of mind that will give her will help to create a more peaceful environment for everyone. And you may find that when you crate him, he won’t feel the need to growl and be a butthead, because he is in a safe environment himself, and knows no one can intrude on that safe space.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

wolfy dog, we tried your advice yesterday afternoon and evening. It's tough to ignore a dog nuzzling under your arm for affection! My wife is at work today but I'll carry on the treatment. However, it didn't stop him lashing out again last night. Conveniently while I was on the phone to a trainer! She's suggested a couple of things which we will try, and asked me to get a muzzle and get him used to it before she comes to visit next week. One of the suggestions was "CBD oil". I'm not really an "essential oils, spiritual energy flow, tellington touch" kinda guy, but she said that the cannabis oil helps smooth the trust building that we need to do. For anyone who doesn't know, the CBD chemical isn't the one that gets you high, that's TCH which we won't be giving the dog!

David Winners, we're in British Columbia, Canada. Conveniently the closest cannabis store is 5 minutes walk and now it's legal! I once walked my landlords pet goat to the weed shop, what a life! 

Saco/Jchrest, we'll reassess this as an option, and check out a few of the pet thrift stores in town. When his bed reappeared two days ago and it was deep in the closet it caused him to lash out like he hadn't in 4 or 5 days so we'll need to think carefully about him having his own space. Obviously the door can be shut on a crate, but it might be hard to make him comfortable locked in there given how uncomfortable he must be feeling. He's walked right into our landlords pet goats pen before so it might be easy enough.


So as I mentioned, he lost it again last night when my wife came out of a door when on the phone to the trainer. She then said to take a video, so we reenacted the situation of my wife walking round the corner and the behaviour was similar, although the second time he didn't leave his bed and rush over. Anyhow, the video is below, I hope it matches my description in post numero uno. 

Dropbox video link to witness "The Behaviour"

Edited to remove language.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The high pitched noises,his posture,tail tuck, all say fear and panic IMO.David will have better insight than I,so I'll refrain from advice.I have a soft spot for insecure and fearful dogs.:hugs:


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

I realize you've already posted back to Saco and Jchrest so I'm another member who would suggest a crate....I didn't own one for years because in my human mind I felt like it was punishment with a sentence of jail time......working with dogs with issues years ago made me realize a crate is just one more ( very important) tool in the box that can help bring a dog from where they are today....to where we want them to be tomorrow....some say dogs love being crated....I don't feel that's true 100% of the time with 100% of the dogs...your dog may become defensive while in the crate or he may not you won't know until you have one.....some dogs will seek out "their" crate on their own it's their sanctuary so to speak....as others said it'll help ease your mind and your wife's I would think......I'm surprised a trainer hasn't suggested crating at times....


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Ah, that behavior reminds me so much of my girl it’s like watching a a rerun of what I dealt with. All that he’s is displaying is fear and lack of confidence. If it was true aggression, he would have left that bed and gone straight to attacking your wife. He’s basically saying “I’m scared, and if I get loud and mean enough sounding, she will go away.” I know what I did with Lyka in that type of situation, but I’m not going to recommend it. I was confident in what I was doing, and don’t know the vibes you or your wife are giving off at this point. It was not physical in the sense that I never touched her, but the tone and attitude I approached her with was clear and concise, and she only did it once more before that behavior stop

Have you verbally called him off and distracted him when he gets like this? Or do the both of you just ignore him? If you’re both ignoring him, his behavior will escalate, because he is being taught that the behavior is okay. 

What have you tried as far as distractions for him when he’s like this? A firm “att” and no is a verbal cue to your dog that that behavior is unacceptable. Try the “come” command if he listens to you with that. Bring him to you, to break the concentration he has on your wife. When he gets to you, put him in a down/stay position. 

Just sharing what I know from personal experience. I went through 2 trainers that told me she was a lost cause before I found one that was eager to work with us, and understood the body language she was displaying. This was just for walks where her leash reactivity was horrible, and she had literally pulled me to the ground and drug me while in pursuit of an off leash dog. 

Hopefully you’ll get a trainer ASAP, and a crate for when your wife is home. Does your room have a master bathroom? Or do you have to walk through the house to get to it? If she can access it without having to leave the room, and if you’re adamant about not crating, at least leave the dog outside the room so your wife can use the bathroom without having to pass your dog. 

If you have any area that you can put a baby gate up, and block him into a different room that way, that could also work (as long as he doesn’t know how to jump it). Just as a temporary measure until you get him evaluated.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Also, I noticed the pause, headshake, and then returning to light growling. What happened that caused that break in his attention to your wife?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I really want to see what the experienced people say about that video, because I have a pretty strong opinion about it myself.
I think you need to be very careful who you take advice from.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I really want to see what the experienced people say about that video, because I have a pretty strong opinion about it myself.
> I think you need to be very careful who you take advice from.


I agree. I’m far from a professional trainer, and even said I wasn’t comfortable telling him what I did with Lyka in those situations. I was just offering advice on ways to keep the dog separated from the wife until they can get a trainer in. It’s reactions are similar to many animals I’ve come across, through foster and shelters. I think it’s a dog that can be rehabilitated, but that’s just my personal opinion. I’m sure others will not agree.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Saco said:


> I suggested crating so your wife...


I read this as, “I suggest crating your wife.” Had a good chuckle. It also has the added benefit of keeping her safe. ?

I’m going to try not to speed read.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Really loving all the thoughts and advice guys, feels like me and Jen have a team behind us rooting for us and our troubled pup!

We began by ignoring the little growls and walking on by in the assumption he'd get comfortable over time and it would stop. But it escalated either because he got more possessive or more fearful or because ignoring him was the wrong approach (this was on the advice that you don't punish a growling dog). Perhaps there is a gentle correction that treads the fine line?

Now what we've done when he's lunged at Jen is that I either call him quickly and assertively to me and make him "down" or I will step between then and make him "down". Thus far, Jen has just paused and stood still when the snarling/barking or rushing begins. 

This morning he seemed unsettled with me, ears back, can see the white of his eyes, and again this is while he's on his bed. BUT he doesn't growl at me, even if I step right past him. He used to, sometimes. But never to the level he is with Jen. I never corrected him, I did some work walking over, making him give a toy and then he gets a treat and the toy back. Jen did some of this too but it didn't seem to help. And of course we only do this when he is normal (ears up, curious look not scared look). We still pay no attention if he's on his bed and looking timid.

We'll figure out a way to keep them separated, and I don't think a crate for my wife would work but we could try... :grin2:

Anything that has worked for anyone else I would be grateful to hear, if I don't believe it would help this situation then I won't apply it of course. I'm in contact with one trainer, the SPCA are running it past their experts and I'm waiting to hear back from 3 other trainers. The video is obviously a useful tool and I've passed it around to them also.



The pause and head shake? That was a fly!! hahaha. Maybe we just need enough flies to keep him distracted at ALL TIMES.


We don't let him onto our bed, or the couch etc, but I've added a photo from 2 weeks ago when he snuck up onto the bed in our campervan to cuddle up next to my wife in the morning (who's arm is across him). At this time, when at home, he was displaying the behaviour shown in the video. He doesn't look too fearful right then...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I was thinking of this, but wasn't sure it was relevant until I saw where the behaviour was made worse by putting his bed in the closet, plus the photo of the dog chilling with your wife in the camper.

You titled this thread "is this resource guarding", and I think you are right. Dogs will guard den space. I had a GSD that was totally fine with strangers, they could pet her give treats, etc. But the moment she got back in my car (her mobile den) she would growl at them if they leaned in to pet her. If they didn't heed the warning, she'd snap.

She also would go ballistic if someone touched the car from outside. Best darn watchdog you could ever want!

She also was protective of her sleeping spot in the house.

Obviously, your dog hasn't been in the camper enough to have claimed a fixed den space, but it wouldn't surprise me if he eventually did.

No suggestions as to how to fix this - just throwing these observations into the mix!
And I really think you need a trainer who can come to your home.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Whom said:


> wolfy dog, we tried your advice yesterday afternoon and evening. It's tough to ignore a dog nuzzling under your arm for affection! My wife is at work today but I'll carry on the treatment. However, it didn't stop him lashing out again last night. Conveniently while I was on the phone to a trainer! She's suggested a couple of things which we will try, and asked me to get a muzzle and get him used to it before she comes to visit next week. One of the suggestions was "CBD oil". I'm not really an "essential oils, spiritual energy flow, tellington touch" kinda guy, but she said that the cannabis oil helps smooth the trust building that we need to do. For anyone who doesn't know, the CBD chemical isn't the one that gets you high, that's TCH which we won't be giving the dog!
> 
> David Winners, we're in British Columbia, Canada. Conveniently the closest cannabis store is 5 minutes walk and now it's legal! I once walked my landlords pet goat to the weed shop, what a life!
> 
> ...


Did you throw a treat in the middle of that?

That dog is very uncomfortable. Definitely looks like fear.

I would have a drag line on a flat collar on him 24/7 unless he's in a crate. I would also muzzle condition him right away.

I would not let him practice that behavior at all. When you see it start to happen, move him with the leash. Keep him moving and ask for behaviors that you can reward. Move just outside his threshold, where he can pay attention to you and responds to commands. Into another room or even outside if necessary. You want to work closer in small increments until it's fixed.

Don't let it escalate to barking and charging. Don't treat the dog when it's acting like that. You move off and then ask for OB commands that you can reward.

I really wouldn't give a correction for this either. You want to teach the dog to move away if it's uncomfortable and to stay under threshold. A correction could definitely make things worse. 

The wife should totally ignore him. Just go on about her business. Right now she's acting unnatural, and that's strange to the dog, giving him more reason to worry. It's your job to manage him with the drag line when necessary. You keep her safe and him under threshold. If you screw up and he goes off, just move him away and do better next time.

I'm 100% behind a crate for this dog. You should be the one to put him in and get him out. She should just ignore the dog.

This is where you start IMO. 

Work OB in another room when the wife is home. Incrementally get closer to her over time, always keeping him under threshold, until he is comfortable near her. Then do it for a coupe more days to be sure.

Then she can begin interacting with the dog in normal ways. No contrived schemes or anything. Just a pat on the side if the dog is near. A treat or 2 here and there for good behavior, then move on.

This will take time and working with a trainer is highly recommended. If you want to lay down the plan of action the trainer suggests on here, we can give our thoughts.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Just the moment when the video was loading and I saw him lying in that tense curled awkward position, I thought: this is a terrified dog! This is like the dogs that rescuers find at the end of alleyways, crouched in dark corners. He is really scared and anxious! This is not dominance.

But a bite is a bite, whether it's a bite out of aggression or a fear bite. 
So be careful! 
What you don't want, is that he's working up his confidence to make a lunge and make contact on skin.

I am no dog trainer so I will bow out now. All I could see is...he is scared and fending her away. 
Maybe he thinks that when he does it, and your wife ignores him or turns away, his strategy is successful? 
Or yes, maybe defending his bed. 
The crate will introduce an element of containment and safety so your wife can relax in her own home...

( And yes, I am not one for using substances for dogs either, but "drugs" really can take the edge off. My friend's dog got very wound and aggressive when they introduced a new pup...the vet prescribed daily trazodone and she is much calmer now. I was amazed when I saw the two dogs both out of their crates, trotting around the living room together).

I hope the visit with the trainer is helpful! Take care.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Whom said:


> wolfy dog, we tried your advice yesterday afternoon and evening. It's tough to ignore a dog nuzzling under your arm for affection! My wife is at work today but I'll carry on the treatment. However, it didn't stop him lashing out again last night.


This doesn't have instant results as it needs to be built. It is only part of the training program in addition to what David Winners said. CBD oil doesn't fix this. Also look up Rabies vaccinoses, caused by repeated Rabies shots. The dog starts to show Rabies symptoms without being sick or contagions. I lost a dog like that when he was 7 years old, developing irrational fear, combined with intense aggression. Long story. It is another way of looking at this issue.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I apparently need to learn the definition of correction. What I did with Lyka was similar to what was suggested. Except I was the only one in the house, and she was leashed to me on a long lead. If I had to go to the kitchen, she would start that low growl, and if I didn’t correct soon enough, it turned into the barking and growling louder. The “correction” was a firm no, and moving her out of her space. It never got physical. But I did grow frustrated with the lead method, and the next time she pulled her bratty scared move, I just reacted. I physically got into her space and told her “back” and kept walking her back until she either moved on her own, or broke the eye contact she was giving me. I know that is a controversial “correction” when working with a scared or fear aggressive dog, but I went with my gut and it stopped the behavior completely. She became a new dog after that. Followed me constantly, would come up and lay her head in my lap, or lay on her bed and whine (because this is where she liked me to lay down and cuddle with her on). The same bed she used to get vocal about me getting near.

Again, just personal experience, not professional advice! My only advice is to make your wife safe with some type of crate or room for your dog where he does not have access to your wife. And get a trainer ASAP.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jchrest said:


> I apparently need to learn the definition of correction. What I did with Lyka was similar to what was suggested. Except I was the only one in the house, and she was leashed to me on a long lead. If I had to go to the kitchen, she would start that low growl, and if I didn’t correct soon enough, it turned into the barking and growling louder. The “correction” was a firm no, and moving her out of her space. It never got physical. But I did grow frustrated with the lead method, and the next time she pulled her bratty scared move, I just reacted. I physically got into her space and told her “back” and kept walking her back until she either moved on her own, or broke the eye contact she was giving me. I know that is a controversial “correction” when working with a scared or fear aggressive dog, but I went with my gut and it stopped the behavior completely. She became a new dog after that. Followed me constantly, would come up and lay her head in my lap, or lay on her bed and whine (because this is where she liked me to lay down and cuddle with her on). The same bed she used to get vocal about me getting near.
> 
> Again, just personal experience, not professional advice! My only advice is to make your wife safe with some type of crate or room for your dog where he does not have access to your wife. And get a trainer ASAP.


It is really strange how sometimes a gut reflex helps. I once was 'greeted' at the door with a puncture bite from a 4 month old pup that my hubby had let out of his crate to greet me when I came home. Well... despite my positive methods, in a reflex I pinned him on the floor with some words that I can't post here and dragged him to his crate. I am not proud of this and this is kind of a confession. He never did it again. Same here; I won't ever advice to do this.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Sunsilver, it does seem to be some combination of location/resource guarding and fear. But it doesn't seem to be just fear that we're going to take whatever it is away, unless he perceives Jen anywhere near to be a threat despite us having never taken things away from him abruptly. We need to prevent him from claiming that space, I was letting him chill in there when I was working outside but this seems like a foolish idea so I will stop.

David Winners, I know you don't know me, but I'd hope you knew me well enough I wouldn't throw a treat to a snarling dog!!! *It was a fly*, just need to fill the house with them now then no more problemo 0 The muzzle conditioning is starting very soon, it took 5 minutes to get him used to a Halti so I imagine the process will be similar, just need to grab one. Thank you for your advice, it sounds very sensible and pragmatic, we'll do the best we can. Distracting him and taking his mind somewhere else. You think Jen ("my wife" sounds too Borat...) should just keep walking even if he's rushed up to her before I can react? Ignore and breeze past if there's room? 

GSDchoice, interesting about the drugs, perhaps a few drops of herbal oil might help him. Maybe we should all take some and chill out munching on chips haha

wolfy dog, Yeah I wasn't expecting instant results, we'll continue ignoring and any interaction is on our terms. I'm trying to prevent him becoming too attached to me but still trusting me as a leader. I did some research into the Rabie vaccinoses, and we gave him a rabies vaccine 2 weeks ago. The behaviour was already there before that, so I am ruling that out for now. Sorry about that puppy, but it sounds like in the circumstances it ended up teaching the lesson. 

Jchrest, thank you for sharing, we will bear it in mind but still seek a trainer before applying such an action. Or at least get the muzzle on haha! I can imagine it would quickly teach him not to do it anymore, but I'd worry that it could result in more lost trust and the potential for going straight to a bite. Orrr it might shake him out of it, but I'll wait for an expert to make that call!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Whom, yeah, definitely dealing with more than this resource guarding! Don't you wish we could see inside their brains to figure this stuff out?:frown2:


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> Whom, yeah, definitely dealing with more than this resource guarding! Don't you wish we could see inside their brains to figure this stuff out?:frown2:


With some of the disgusting toilet drinking, vomit eating, poop rolling and random dog genital licking he does, I really don't wish that at all!!! hahahaha


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Whom said:


> Sunsilver, it does seem to be some combination of location/resource guarding and fear. But it doesn't seem to be just fear that we're going to take whatever it is away, unless he perceives Jen anywhere near to be a threat despite us having never taken things away from him abruptly. We need to prevent him from claiming that space, I was letting him chill in there when I was working outside but this seems like a foolish idea so I will stop.
> 
> David Winners, I know you don't know me, but I'd hope you knew me well enough I wouldn't throw a treat to a snarling dog!!! *It was a fly*, just need to fill the house with them now then no more problemo /forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_angel.png The muzzle conditioning is starting very soon, it took 5 minutes to get him used to a Halti so I imagine the process will be similar, just need to grab one. Thank you for your advice, it sounds very sensible and pragmatic, we'll do the best we can. Distracting him and taking his mind somewhere else. You think Jen ("my wife" sounds too Borat...) should just keep walking even if he's rushed up to her before I can react? Ignore and breeze past if there's room?
> 
> ...


Lol... I was like, "what is he THINKING!"

Yeah, I would have Jen completely ignore him and act as natural as possible. I know how tough that can be with a dog acting a fool, but hopefully things will get better soon. If you have the opportunity to train frequently, a coupe days could make a big difference.

All the anecdotal stories of a single correction solving a similar problem are great. I'm glad it worked. It also may be how I handled the situation if I was there. That being said, there are some real risks to this and I don't know your level of experience dealing with an aggressive dog that wants to eat you. It can also backfire and make the situation worse. Without seeing how the dog handles a correction, I can't tell you where to start either.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whom said:


> Sunsilver, it does seem to be some combination of location/resource guarding and fear. But it doesn't seem to be just fear that we're going to take whatever it is away, unless he perceives Jen anywhere near to be a threat despite us having never taken things away from him abruptly. We need to prevent him from claiming that space, I was letting him chill in there when I was working outside but this seems like a foolish idea so I will stop.
> 
> David Winners, I know you don't know me, but I'd hope you knew me well enough I wouldn't throw a treat to a snarling dog!!! *It was a fly*, just need to fill the house with them now then no more problemo 0 The muzzle conditioning is starting very soon, it took 5 minutes to get him used to a Halti so I imagine the process will be similar, just need to grab one. Thank you for your advice, it sounds very sensible and pragmatic, we'll do the best we can. Distracting him and taking his mind somewhere else. You think Jen ("my wife" sounds too Borat...) should just keep walking even if he's rushed up to her before I can react? Ignore and breeze past if there's room?
> 
> ...


I really, really want to stay out of this. You are getting some really good advice and some I would tread carefully with.
Fearful dogs are dangerous. Period. 
An aggressive dog is predictable. A scared dog is not.
I watched the video. I saw a scared dog. But I also saw a dog that is performing a practiced behavior and is not commited to it. How am I the only one who knew that was a fly? 
It isn't guarding, it isn't aggression. He's scared. But that an annoying fly distracted him and the pitch of the growling shows no commitment but rather a behavior he is used to. 
Please follow David's advice. Dragline, crate, muzzle and trainer.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I agree, my method was, again, a gut reaction. One that turned out well for me, but may turn out badly for someone else doing it. I had her on the lead for weeks, and got tired of having to lure her to me with a lead so I could get to my own kitchen. I certainly don’t recommend it unless under close supervision with a trainer, and the trainer agreeing it wouldn’t cause a bite. He/she can have eyes on him accessing him for bite risk. 

Good luck, and keep us updated with how it all works out for you and Jen!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Whom said:


> With some of the disgusting toilet drinking, vomit eating, poop rolling and random dog genital licking he does, I really don't wish that at all!!! hahahaha


Good to see that he also has good behavior! :grin2:


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks again everyone. We've had one trainer suggest that Jen stands still and I move into his space to make him move and let me know it's not OK. Not sure how I feel about this trainer... this was just from the video and phone call. And another trainer want's $175 for a 90 minute skype "consultation" because she is booked up too busy for 5 weeks. Not sure how I feel about that either!!! Surely the devil is in the detail and no webcam is good enough to catch the subtleties. Although I have heard great things about her as a trainer. 

One of my friend's dad's had a dog that would behave the same (a GSD), his Dad would distract it when it was behaving in such a way towards my friend and it got better eventually. It was on death row after 3 failed rehomings until taken in by my friend's dad. So I will do you as suggested David, and Jen will do her best to keep walking on by! 

Last night I put him in the spare bedroom which is a long ways from where we sleep and it went smoothly. His kong kept him entertained and the warmth of the bedding suggests he spent the night on our bed not his! But we'll pretend we didn't notice the same way he pretends he wasn't up there. Meanwhile I've made a closet into a crate but I need to get him used to it slowly.

We're away this weekend, with the pup. We'll make sure he's comfortable in the mother in law's house but not too comfortable that he feels he can defend any locations. We'll make sure he keeps moving around and not getting too settled on one bed/rug. She has an older dog, they met on the first day we got him and it went smoothly. I'm putting a lot of effort into teaching him that I'll look after him, just focus on me, and he's already lots better with leash reactivity. He used to lunge and bark but with consistency and the Halti we can walk right past a barking dog and he'll stick to my heel pretty well with minimal attempts at interacting with the barking dog.

Patience. Patience. Patience.

Will keep this thread updated! Have a good weekend y'all.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Two sayings I like and repeat quite a bit.
Their perception is our reality.
What are you going to do when that doesn't work.
So in five weeks you haven't been consistent in his mind. The pic of him laying with your wife and pointing out that he's been given the freedom to approach and behave on his terms shows that. He's dictating how he's going to behave. Crate. A lot more time spent keeping things indifferent and controlled is important. The crate and a schedule benefits him. 

It also helps avoid the second statement. Calm management helps keep you from unfairly, in his mind, correcting for something and then finding out how he handles unfair. Good luck.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've been trying to figure out how to give some actual advice for this situation- aside from the good advice on crating and controlling already given.

Perhaps this will be helpful or not, but watching that video I see that Jen is scared. I can not blame her for that, but she is inadvertently encouring that behavior. Because in the dog's mind, it works. 

Something to think about:

'The trainer must learn to read the soul of the dog, and his own too. He must observe himself closely so that he shall not only be prevented from underestimating the dog in human arrogance, but also that he may be able to give the dog suggestions and help in an intelligent way.'- Captain Max von Stephanitz

It's a lot to ask of a new dog owner, which is why you need a hands-on, good, in-home trainer to help you out here. Someone who can lay eyes on the dog AND on you and Jen, and help out. That is my best suggestion.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I just now saw the video. My take; dangerous situation there. Dog is scared and free to attack if he wanted or felt like needed. He needs to be crated for human safety as that comes first. Jen is standing still which, I think, makes the dog even more suspicious because that is not how most humans act. Instead she could calmly 'work' at the counter, movements slow, ignoring the dog. I stick with my first opinion; bringing the dog back. I find him too dangerous for a pet. You might get him comfortable in your environment but as soon as something changes he could easily snap again. I am 'just' a pet dog trainer though but I always have played it safe for the sake of people. There are so many solid dogs wasted whose place he takes. I am really sorry; it is my gut feeling when I saw the video..


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> I just now saw the video. My take; dangerous situation there. Dog is scared and free to attack if he wanted or felt like needed. He needs to be crated for human safety as that comes first. Jen is standing still which, I think, makes the dog even more suspicious because that is not how most humans act. Instead she could calmly 'work' at the counter, movements slow, ignoring the dog. I stick with my first opinion; bringing the dog back. I find him too dangerous for a pet. You might get him comfortable in your environment but as soon as something changes he could easily snap again. I am 'just' a pet dog trainer though but I always have played it safe for the sake of people. There are so many solid dogs wasted whose place he takes. I am really sorry; it is my gut feeling when I saw the video..


Wife looks like she's being held hostage, and also despite trying to appear brave, she's scared. So is the dog. But that dog will win. He will eventually lose it seriously because he doesn't have a stable mind and is fearful. She's frozen like prey, and he's locked on her like a predator. And yes, I saw him briefly bothered by the fly, then back to her, boom. 

Look at his eyes. We have an old time saying about horses and dogs with white eyes showing easily. Don't buy it. It is fearful and unstable, and a fearful horse (or dog) can hurt or kill you. I've never had a horse with white eyes, (other than Appies and Knapstrubbers who have naturally white sclera, but I've never had one of those, I'm an Arabian and Paso Fino gal) nor a dog, they have nice brownish sclera. And they are balanced behaviorally.
I don't know if it's correct, but in 55 years of having and training horses and dogs, not one has shown white eyes like this dog, and not one has been dangerous, including my wolf-dog, Siberian huskies, the sweetest Rottweiler and 3 German Shepherds, as well as Goldens and Weimaraners.

Seriously, think hard about sending him back. He's probably not going to improve his innate nature and your wife is going to end up losing. She should be more important.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

An animal behaviorist once told me that if you are afraid of your dog, that is a deal breaker. Not to put the dog down, but to remove him from the home. I honestly don't understand why you put a human at risk anyways, why that is OK.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> An animal behaviorist once told me that if you are afraid of your dog, that is a deal breaker. Not to put the dog down, but to remove him from the home. I honestly don't understand why you put a human at risk anyways, why that is OK.


I think for myself, I probably have more confidence in myself when it comes to animals, and haven’t met a dog that’s scared me yet. The confidence could be totally misplaced, but I haven’t had a bad experience yet. So for me personally, I don’t see it as putting a human at risk. 

I watched the video, and he wouldn’t pose a threat to me, because that type of behavior isn’t scary for me. But you’re right, if Jen is terrified of the dog, the chances of it being a successful home is slim to none. And yes, Jen can absolutely be in danger with that dog, if the method used is just to ignore him. I wouldn’t have allowed him to get past that first shallow growl. But again, probably that pesky overconfident I have! Lol. I’m sure there will come a time when I meet my match, but I don’t worry about it now, because it’s not in front of me now. But I will admit, if i DID end up with a dog in my home that scared either my kids, my DH, or myself, the dog wouldn’t be around in our home anymore.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This thread resonates with me. During the years when I helped people in their home (as pet dog trainer) I have often encountered situations and dogs like these: the one partner was afraid and the other bragging like, "He never does it to me!" or "But I love him, he is my baby!" I was talking to walls with kids sitting at the table with the scars and bandages to prove it. One older lady had her entire arm mauled but she loved the dog (2 year old Labradoodle and the only dog ever that I was truly afraid of.). All these people expected me to hand them a magic wand but didn't want to put the work in. Again, WHY IS THIS OK? 
There have been many situations in which a bratty but socialized dog ruled the roost and where people were cooperative. These were very successful in a very short time. 
The OPs dog seems traumatized, unsocialized. Maybe compare it to PTSD, hard to heal from.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Do you have a plan for managing the dog when visitors come to the house--friends, family members (possibly with children), technicians/repair-people? How much obedience training has this dog had? Has your wife practiced giving him commands? A strong foundation in obedience is an absolute must. How does your wife feel about continuing to work with the dog? Can she walk him on a leash or do something fun with him to strengthen the bond? 

I'm not a trainer so I won't try to interpret his behavior or tell how to correct it, but I can tell you what I believe I would do in your situation. 

I think the first thing I would do is hire the very best, most experienced trainer I could find and afford. I might ask on the forum for recommendations. I'd contact all the closest Protection training and GSD or malinois clubs I could find and ask if they know trainers. A video conference wouldn't work for me. I would want someone who could come to the house and teach/show the handlers what to do. I would work on strengthening the dog's basic obedience training. 

If several trainers told me the dog wasn't safe, I would probably consider returning the dog to the shelter and letting them make the hard decisions. I am not a person to re-home dogs. I was raised to believe that you don't get rid of pets. BUT I have never had to deal with an issue like this. For me, when a dog is a danger to his own family that's a deal-breaker. 

I hate to be the jerk who says to send him back. But if you try to manage the issue and it doesn't get better, there are thousands of adoptable dogs in shelters and rescues across the country who need and deserve help, that aren't aggressive, and that will possibly be euthanized if they don't find homes. Something or someone absolutely failed this dog--abuse, neglect, or simply genetics and bad breeding--but it will NOT have been you or your family.

If this were a dog that I had strongly bonded to, and the issue didn't get better after a certain amount of time, and I was determined to keep him, I would manage him like a dangerous animal. I'd build him a big secure locked fence, enclosure, or run that contained all the things he needed to be comfortable, sheltered, and entertained. I'd make it as big as I could afford, and I'd only do it if the enclosure was in a safe place where no kids could wander into the yard and stick their hands through or under the gate. It would have to be escape proof. I would keep him out there when I couldn't supervise him (and when the weather wasn't extreme). I would take him on lots of walks/outings (if his aggression was controllable), I'd spend time training and exercising him daily, and I'd bring him inside to hang out in controlled situations, possibly tethered to me. If he started growling at the wife while tethered to me, I'd put him through some obedience exercises, then eventually reward him after/if he complied. I would also let him spend the night in the house, crated. I would try to make him feel like a member of the family, and I would still let him have controlled interactions with the wife. I'd worry that separating them 100 percent of the time might make things worse? 

I am rooting for you and the dog whatever you decide. I am really hoping that you'll find a wonderful trainer and that there will be a positive outcome. I admire you and your wife for trying to help him. Thanks for posting all the updates.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> I would bring him back to the shelter unless your aim was to start a long, possibly risky project with mixed results. A shelter should not adopt a dog out like that. Is there a temperament test report on him from the shelter?
> One of our local shelters cranks out dogs like him, causing similar heartaches. They come in loads out of sates where they are deemed unadoptable. So the shelter has these 'rescue transports' and people adopt them. Good business for the trainers though.
> Can you post a picture so we can see what 'mostly GSD' looks like?


An awful lot of problem dogs being shipped in and adopted out around here too, some that are quite dangerous and have long bite histories-- 

Whether or not these folks want to deal with it and try to work through it is their business I guess.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> 5 weeks into a new home. The dog is still figuring things out. Just live your lives like you want to. Come and go as you please. If the dog throws a fit, ignore it. Don't over think this. Show the dog what normal looks like. Don't feel sorry for him. Don't worry about him. This is today and not whenever bad stuff may or may not have happened.
> 
> Have the wife feed him, groom him, let him outside and back in, have her interact in ways that build trust. Fun stuff.
> 
> ...



You obviously have a set made of steel!!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> Also, I noticed the pause, headshake, and then returning to light growling. What happened that caused that break in his attention to your wife?


Looked to me like he caught a fly. Was I the only one who thought he just looked & sounded like a brat?

Esp. that he was cool to stop and catch and fly and then get back to it. 

I'd tell him to knock that off pronto in a way that he'd remember...but I could be way off...I am super tired and just watched it quick


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I noticed the pause, headshake, and then returning to light growling. What happened that caused that break in his attention to your wife?
> ...


I agree that he is being a butthead, and needs corrections, not ignoring. The fact that he refocused on the fly (I didn’t know what it was a first) shows he’s being a butthead. True aggression would be distract-able. But if that doesn’t happen, this dog will get more and more amped up, and left unchecked, will likely lead to Jen being bit. 

I would home him, but like I said, if the kids or my DH were scared of him, he wouldn’t still be in my home, because they matter more to me than a new rescue. 

If I ever get scared of a dog, run for the hills, because the dog zombie apocalypse has come.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Did you throw a treat in the middle of that?
> 
> That dog is very uncomfortable. Definitely looks like fear.
> 
> ...


This is one of the better approaches^. Resource guarding is a function of survival instincts. Forcing a dog to ignore instincts or face a correction is a lose lose proposition for the dog. It is not fair to the dog and can negatively influence his behavior and damage the bond with the owners. It is not conducive to learning a better behavior where the dog can make choices and win. 

OP should use both the muzzle and tethering to walk the dog through some incremental steps such as approaches, then reaching a hand out, then touches, etc., somewhere that the dog does not resource guard. Reward every success with a high value treat. After the dog is responding well in a relaxed manner, the wife should repeat the process with the dog still tethered and muzzled. Don't be afraid to take a few steps back as necessary. Expect to spend some time on this. 

Once the sequence has been completed, OP should start over this time without the muzzle and tether. Then let his wife do the same. It is key to make sure the dog is calm and even happy throughout the process which is easily accomplished via the anticipation of high value treats. 

Afterward, the process can be repeated but maybe this time it can be done closer to an area the dog resource guards or move the dog's bed closer to the newly conditioned area where the process was just completed. Rinse and repeat moving gradually toward the guarded area after each fully completed process until the goal is achieved.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> I agree that he is being a butthead, and needs corrections, not ignoring. The fact that he refocused on the fly (I didn’t know what it was a first) shows he’s being a butthead. True aggression would be distract-able. But if that doesn’t happen, this dog will get more and more amped up, and left unchecked, will likely lead to Jen being bit.
> 
> I would home him, but like I said, if the kids or my DH were scared of him, he wouldn’t still be in my home, because they matter more to me than a new rescue.
> 
> If I ever get scared of a dog, run for the hills, because the dog zombie apocalypse has come.



He's absolutely a brat, but predator/prey behavior with a loved one is not cool. (I'm not saying you think it's ok, Jcrest)
As much as I love dogs, they are not little 4 legged people, they can and they do have the ability to inflict devastating and even fatal injuries on humans. The crush strength of a German Shepherd, with possibly some Rottweiller or just whoever knows, if he ever latches on the wife, he'll hurt her. 

I got bitten badly in the hand by a Bouvier de Flandres in a social situation. Completely unexpected, this is a friendly outgoing dog I've known for years. He was on my blind side and I put my hand out to him, touching his collar region. He grabbed my hand that quick, and went straight up in the air (I'm a short lady) taking my hand with him, and biting down when I struggled. 

That's the only dog that ever scared me because he did something unusual by rearing into the air like a horse. And he didn't warn first, he just lost it. So I know what it's like to be bitten, and my hand felt when the teeth were grinding the bones and tendons that hold our hands together. Was a horrible and frightening thing to happen. 

I'm a retired nurse, I don't want to see a fellow nurse get hurt by a dog, if it can be avoided.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My take is that I have never seen a dog gaurding any resource that wasn't 100% committed while doing so! Dogs don't lie or deceive. This dog may have learned this behavior via fear, but I didn't see a lot of fear from him in the video. As Sabis Mom pointed out, he's not real committed, it seems to me to be more of a practiced intimidation technique he's learned a long the way. It's worked for him before so why change it now?

That being said, confronting the dog is not productive and potentially dangerous, so yeah, I wouldn't advise that! The thing is, with a dog like this correcting him could lead to a very unstable reaction. He may just back down, or he might decide it's a life or death struggle - why take that gamble?

Get a good trainer to guide you through helping him learn a new way to act! I don't see anything in the video that says he's beyond hope. And in fact, with an experienced trainer and the right approach, I personally don't see his rehabilitation taking a really long time either. He's young, he's smart, and from what's been said about him fairly stable otherwise. 

But take some decisive action now, not later, to end his bullying of Jen! Stop molly coddling this brat! Every day that is allowed will make it harder to extinguish! Buy a crate, contain the dog! And if it were me, I'd find something other than Jen that elicited a similar reaction, then I'd focus on getting him over that first, instead of working on it with her directly! It isn't about her, per se, it's about butt-head behavior in general. 

I'm no expert, don't claim to be, so take my 2 cents for what it's worth...and good luck with him, he's a handsome boy!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> My take is that I have never seen a dog gaurding any resource that wasn't 100% committed while doing so! Dogs don't lie or deceive. This dog may have learned this behavior via fear, but I didn't see a lot of fear from him in the video. As Sabis Mom pointed out, he's not real committed, it seems to me to be more of a practiced intimidation technique he's learned a long the way. It's worked for him before so why change it now?
> 
> That being said, confronting the dog is not productive and potentially dangerous, so yeah, I wouldn't advise that! The thing is, with a dog like this correcting him could lead to a very unstable reaction. He may just back down, or he might decide it's a life or death struggle - why take that gamble?
> 
> ...


Practiced intimidation technique-- yep-- I've been trying to remember if I've ever seen a dog in a real "state" stop and snap a fly...I don't think I have... 

I have still ony watched the video once super fast but I thought I saw some indicator somewhere in there of the dog looking to the video-er (is that you, OP) for approval/disapproval etc. Tell him it is not okay.

The dragging long line is a great idea. I'd have kicked him out of the room where your wife is so fast when he started that crap. You want to live here? Respect the ones who were here before you!! I'd demote him big time---he only gets access to good stuff like being in the same room with family, if he can conduct himself reasonably

You can pick up the line at a safe distance and promptly escort the dog to social isolation if he wants to act like a big jerk. Yes confronting a growling dog is dangerous but honestly so is ignoring it, and so is taking advice on an internet forum so...there is no solution where you guys are not at risk unless you just take him back.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

PS when I say kick him out of the room I don't mean literally kick. I definitely wouldn't touch any part of this dog while he is acting like that, you might really get bit, but you can still grab a line and take him out quick and let him know it was his bad behavior why he is being exiled.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Am I correct that some of us are feeling frustrated after seeing the video?Just wanting to step magically into the screen and help the dog and family?Me too.
I really think David laid out the best plan for them to start out.Basically to interrupt the behavior and give him an alternative behavior.Non confrontational.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks again for all the responses people, as I am sure you can imagine it's a tough time for us all. We are reading it all, but I don't have the time now to respond thoroughly to all the comments so I'll just give a short update.

I've made a makeshift crate out of the closet and a big mesh door that I am slowly getting him accustomed to. In the meantime he is sleeping in the spare room and not making any fuss about that. Today I bought a muzzle and began the several day process of making him happy to put it on. 

We're still trying to get a behaviourist out here in person, but it's proving weirdly tough to get any responses. 

I can see why some of you think we should return him, and it's obviously an option but we haven't tried everything yet so it isn't fair right now. It's like buying a second hand car from the scrap yard and wondering why it sometimes overheats and you haven't even tried changing the water pump yet. Can't just send it back to be crushed without learning how to turn a wrench! And if the water pump doesn't fix it, and then the radiator doesn't fix it, well then we'll look at our other options. We need a dependable and predictable family friendly car. 

I haven't given you guys all the details of his good side, and all the reasons we have to keep him. But try and trust us, he's worth the time right now. 

Will keep you updated. And if you want to magically jump through the screen or come visit, there's plenty of beer in the fridge!!!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

:toasting::rofl::rofl:A bunch of crazy dog nerds mixed with alcohol?!in your home!?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

So glad to hear the update! Make sure you get a box muzzle though, the mesh ones or vinyl ones still allow their mouths to open enough to be fed treats, and I’ve had a foster use that to his advantage to bite me. Obviously it wasn’t as bad of a bite than it could have been, but I learned my lessons on muzzles the hard way ?‍♀


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> So glad to hear the update! Make sure you get a box muzzle though, the mesh ones or vinyl ones still allow their mouths to open enough to be fed treats, and I’ve had a foster use that to his advantage to bite me. Obviously it wasn’t as bad of a bite than it could have been, but I learned my lessons on muzzles the hard way ?‍♀


Whoopsie! Is Box type the same as Basket? See below.



And yeah maybe I'll ration the alcohol haha


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Whom said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > So glad to hear the update! Make sure you get a box muzzle though, the mesh ones or vinyl ones still allow their mouths to open enough to be fed treats, and I’ve had a foster use that to his advantage to bite me. Obviously it wasn’t as bad of a bite than it could have been, but I learned my lessons on muzzles the hard way ?‍♀
> ...


Yep, that is the correct one! I said box, but the basket one looks way more comfortable! I could use a shot or two myself, so keep that liquor bottle open!


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## goneridin2 (Aug 6, 2019)

@Whom, Kudos to you and to your wife for your efforts and willingness to work through these issues. You have some very great advice from others. I am very new on this forum, but this seems to be a great group with extensive and varied experiences. 

Let me start by saying that I am not a huge supporter of crating — however, I do teach my dogs to crate up until they earn my trust (behaviorally — toilet habits, chewing, any negative behaviors, etc). Whenever I have a new dog in the house (adoption or otherwise), I do crate them at night initially, or if I am unable to keep a proper eye on them. But, definitely only as needed. 

A couple of thoughts that came to mind when thinking about crating were that you may want to see if he has ever been crated and what his response was to crating. Sometimes crating can make a dog feel ‘safe’ (like puppies when they seek out small places). On the other hand, sometimes it can make them feel trapped. Your wife deserves and needs a safe place as well as the dog. When coming home and at night she needs to be able to rest and compose herself so that she can be her best at work, at home and when she works with him. 

With a previous GSD, we crated him when new people came inside the house that we did not want him to befriend (or to get in their way) like contractors, etc. When we had new guests stay over that might be moving around the house after we went bed, etc. we crated him initially. Later we closed our bedroom door. It was a good training tool and resource when used properly and not used as a full time babysitter. 

Reading your post, I’m confident that you know this, but I will say it, anyway. I find with most animals (people, too) that trust can be more important than food and water - not medically, of course. Trust is unilateral — it goes both ways. The GSD pup needs to earn your & your wife’s trust and you both need to earn his. It sounds like you’re both trying. Someone suggested that she may be trying too hard. There may be something to that. There’s a VERY old English (as in the U.K.) horse training adage that was common in dressage training circles. It seems to fit — ‘Mind these three: TTT! THINGS TAKE TIME’!

Since you mention that his issues seem to present more indoors, I would suggest outdoor activities for the two of them. You might consider some FUN, easy, no stress activities that they both enjoy lightly interspersed with some short easy obedience to gradually build that trust. And, try sincere laughter. It always relaxed my very aloof male GSD around strangers. It relaxes us and in turn relaxes them. 

If I found myself in your situation — as I have in the past — I would invest in a trainer who specializes in desensitizing reactive dogs — or a behaviorist (as mentioned by others)!

Remember to breath. (My horse trainer had to remind me to do that — often!)


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

So we've been working on a few things, he's getting the hang of the muzzle slowly slowly. The "crate" closet is now complete, I built a new door and used the original hinges (see pic below). He seems very happy in there, tucked up in there right now with the door open and his kong out here along with the rug he often "defends". Although Jen is at work so he is usually more chilled out when she's away. BUT he did used to be timid around me, especially on his bed or with his toy/kong on hand but he's gotten pretty close to 100% solid with me. So if I started at 80% trusted, and now he's 99%, and Jen's at 20%.... then she can still get there with him! We hope...

We both took him out yesterday, he was heeling well with me and pretty well with her. I made sure Jen was walking out the front when I was in control of him, he didn't fight that at all. She did a bunch of obedience practice in a big field and they both had a fun relaxed time, but then it always has been outside. 

A few nights ago we had a bag of dog food on a chair, and he got really defensive of it. Growling and snarling at me, my reaction was to send him away and he would dash off to where he was sent then creep back over 10 seconds later ignoring my "stay". Jen tried the same, but he didn't back down or obey her. 

It then occurred to me that his food was on top of the fridge, and whilst he can't get to it, perhaps it is till heightening his sense of defending a resource. So that has now all been taken out of sight. 

Now he's not slept in the same room as us, and been in the crate closet (dubbed the "Bear Pit") we haven't had any issues at all. He hasn't even growled as Jen walks past as he's chilling in his pit on his bed. Tonight I am going to try him in the pit all night, not the other room, but Jen's working so this is just a small trial. 

The SPCA called me back, the specialists are on a conference for a couple of days but they'll get back to us ASAP. They were grateful that we were trying to hard, but said there was no pressure and they'd obviously take him back if that is what we felt was required. The lady believed we'd already gone way beyond what most people would, but to us of course we're going to try everything! Also starting to gain traction with getting a behaviourist involved, but timing is awkward now as I'm away teaching next week and as Jen isn't comfortable without me around (and she's working a couple of days) we're going to have to put him into kennels. 

Last time I taught, we got him into a place where they don't have cages, all the dogs roam around as a pack and it seemed great. But they are closed this time. Do you think a kennels is going to put him back? We hate that we have to, but we've found the best one around. 

Thanks goneridin2 for all your thoughts, tips and anecdotes. I'm from the UK, but I never got into horses... too crazy for my liking! We're certainly up for TTT, but the stress is knowing that we're on the right path otherwise time will only make it worse. But I feel we're getting somewhere... 

That was a long brain dump, keeping you guys in the loop. And I'll attach more photos, because I like photos... hope you do too!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Instead of going through the trouble of fixing this closet why not invest in a real crate which is less prone to be destroyed and safer for Jen? How do you securely close it? It looks like you used the door's own hinges, right?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

While I applauded the ingenuity of what you did, it doesn’t look 100% breakout free. Is this in your room, or the spare room? 

Crios tries to be a resource guarder, I just never let him get away with it. Floki is doing the same now, and again, I just don’t allow it. Floki is a 10 month old Belgian Malinois and a temp foster. He claimed Crios’s bed as his own, and wouldn’t let anyone near it, especially Crios. Turned into a full on dog fight before I realized what was going on. That was fun to break up! Anyway, with Crios, if we gave him his own “safe space” it stopped about 85% of the guarding, and the rest was easy to train him out of. I did the same with Floki, and he’s golden now. I’ve attached a picture of something similar I did with their wire crates. Neither would tolerate a plastic crate, which I prefer. But neither of them would chill out or relax until I covered their crates. I used felt material from Walmart, and did a no sew version, because who has time for that?! But once I got them on, the both settled really well. Crios was my test guy, it took me about 2 months to figure out what the issue was, so I was able to go straight to this when Floki started to guard, but wouldn’t go near his plastic or wire crate. Now he goes in on his own all the time. 

Anyway, just a suggestion. And a little safer for both the dog, and Jen.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Wowza, two very different ways to give similar advice there! I appreciate the anecdotes, it makes it much easier for me to understand and relate to advice that is given. I won't go into lots of details about why I chose to make a door instead of buy a crate, but please just trust me on this one. The hope is that it is temporary that we have to lock him in, and eventually it will just be his space when he chooses to go in there with the door wide open. And as mentioned before, we don't like having too much stuff so we're trying this first. For some people it might seem like a lot of effort, but when you have the crazy building skills like me it's really no stress :wink2:

The good news is, it appears to be working/helping. Tonight while Jen was rushing around getting ready for a night shift at work I had him in the Bear Pit, he was completely comfortable the entire time, which is a first. See the photo below which was taken while Jen was nearby in the bathroom with the door open. He used to lay stiff, ears back, watching intently in case the "threat" were to make a move. Tonight, he chilled in the crate not even looking. I grabbed some clothes from the rail above him, he just glanced up and then looked back down quite happy. 

The SPCA finally got back to us, it was not very helpful. The gave me a couple of links to trainers, suggesting we use a "distance consult". We really don't feel that we'll get the full benefit of a trainer via videos. Someone needs to look at our behaviour, and his to get the full picture. 

I'm focusing my training energy at muzzle desensitisation, leash behaviour including ignoring stimulus (dogs behind fences etc) and I need to stop him barking at strangers when he's in our van. Basically I need to keep on the work to make him trust me and believe that I've got his back. But this will take time of course. But it's getting there, and perhaps his gaining in trust with me will help him believe that Jen ain't so bad after all!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Hey, if it works, it works. Keep using the bear den as long as it’s keeping both Jen and the dog safe. 

As for not wanting much stuff, I get that completely. I’ve always been a minimalist, and can pack all my belongings in the bed of my truck. Until we bought our house together. DH is the complete opposite of me in that regard, and has STUFF EVERYWHERE. It’s been fun trying to adapt. For me, if it’s not useful, it’s not necessary. The only thing I “hoard” is dog stuff, and that’s only because I foster, so I’ll never know when and what is needed until I get the call from the shelter. 

Just want to make sure you’re aware of one thing. Generally when you gave a resource guarding dog, you’re always going to have a resource guarding dog. He could go months without issue, and then suddenly find that he wants no one touching the coffee table, or dishes, or the toilet plunger. Just random stuff that makes zero sense. For that reason, there will always be a percentage of management that he will need. And that safe space closet will need to always be available. 

When I say Floki and Crios are golden now, I mean that we’ve learned the perfect balance of training and management. Not that they stopped altogether. If Floki even walks past Crios empty food dish, Crios will curl his lip and get stiff. A firm “knock it off” from me is enough now, but it took time to get there. And part of it was management of dishes. No empty dishes left out, they get pulled as soon as they walk away from their bowls, empty or not. We’ve learned what activities they can do together and allow them that, and what activities they can’t, and crate and rotate at that point, which is management. I know you don’t have two dogs, but the same applies in the sense that he guards against Jen. That management need will never go away. It will get better, but you have to understand that keeping a dog like this is a lifetime commitment of not only training, but management as well.

Good to hear you are making progress! Every step is reason to celebrate, and I send all good wishes your way! 

To bad you’re overseas, I could send you any size or shape or colored crate in existence to try out!


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

I'm still here, still trying to fix this broken menace! 

Jchrest, that makes lots of sense about management, we're happy to deal with that if we can get it to a tolerable state. No dog is perfect, and he doesn't do so many things that other dogs do we feel managing this one trait will be worth it once it's under control.

We've had a busy couple of weeks, Oso spent a week at a "house boarding" place, we gave the lady the full run down and she didn't have any problems with him. Jen then picked him up and we went right to a family camping event last weekend. He was hard work, he wouldn't settle outside the van tied to it with all the other dogs and a goat around the campspot. So he spent most of his time inside the van, and when he was out he was ok walking past the animals and people, but would sometimes start barking at family.

He even barked at our landlord/cousin with whom he's been great with up until now. He had picked up a stick, it was on the floor again and Justin walked over and Oso lost it. Seriously guarding the stick, something he doesn't usually put much value on. 

Our 5yr old niece walked past when he was beside me handing out crisps (chips) to everyone and he made a sudden effort to walk towards her, she recoiled and dropped some crisps. He then growled a little at her. We felt sick.

He picked up a bone when I was walking him, and would not give it up. He usually is OK with me, but this he would not give, no way. He went full growl and snarl at me and I lost my temper so I dragged him back to the van and threw him back in. On the way he managed to eat the whole bone. 

He wasn't terrible in the van, even though he spent lots of time in there to "claim it" as his space. But in the evenings he would sometimes growl a little, but during the night itself he was fine. There was one weird instance though, where I went into the van and he was sleepy and I asked for a "shake" and he just growled at me. I took a video as it was weird behaviour, why is he being stubborn? Is he trying to tell me to f off? I reached into my pocket for treats and that gets his attention then he obeys. The video should play at the link here:

Link to video of him growling when commanded by me

So we returned home very, very low on patience with him. Fed up and sick of it. But the behaviourist was coming round, so we waited it out.

Back home we finally had a trainer come round, she was recommended to us by the trainer who was most strongly recommended to us but was too busy to help for weeks. She seemed pretty good, she didn't witness the behaviour but saw our house and gave us advice. Most of it was stuff we're already doing. The key things we took away from it were:
1 - Sometimes behaviours get worse before they get better, the dog trying to get the reaction they used to get before finally realising it doesn't work.
2 - There could be a number of triggers that combined take him over threshold, we need to try and identify as many as we can.
3 - When he starts an "episode", we should casually just stand there and wait it out, then continue when he stops. Just don't walk away while he's making a fuss. He should learn that when he's trying isn't working.

She renewed our motivation, let's hope it can last long enough.

He is spending a lot of time in his closet now, most of his time indoors is in there. He's even been going in there with the door open which is good. In the evenings and mornings he has been growling/snarling as Jen gets ready for work, the same as before. Even if he hears her from the bathroom. We've been doing what we were told, but it's tough. 

Yesterday morning he was even doing it to me. Jen was in the bathroom, I climbed back into bed (which creaks because we're using a futon frame haha) and he kept losing it when that happened. I guess that noise was pushing him over the edge. 

And yesterday evening, Jen came home and I let him out after a few minutes. She gave him some treats and petted him fine. Before she got home I had removed his kong from the floor but he hadn't seen me do it. As Jen walks towards the bathroom, which is near where the kong was, he suddenly freaks out, nips Jen on the bum and rushes past her. I get between them, he backs down and goes back in the closet. 

I don't know how long our renewed motivation will last :crying:

So here is a question, if this is more resource guarding than fear, which is what it is looking like to me, why can't I scold him? And why can't Jen scold him if he's in his closet? And, I don't know the answer so I am asking the question, could a shock collar (if used properly) help teach him it isn't acceptable to guard locations/sticks/bones/toys?

I know many of you will believe he's not salvageable, and you might be right. We feel we want to try a little longer, and we are aware of the risk we're taking.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Whom said:


> I'm still here, still trying to fix this broken menace!
> 
> Jchrest, that makes lots of sense about management, we're happy to deal with that if we can get it to a tolerable state. No dog is perfect, and he doesn't do so many things that other dogs do we feel managing this one trait will be worth it once it's under control.
> 
> ...


God bless you for putting up with all of this. I wouldn't. Especially not dashing out and biting the spouse. 

If these camping trips as you described are a regular part of your life I honestly would return this dog. He is so far from having a temperament to be safe and enjoyable in that kind of environment. What if next time he bites the kid?

Do you have access to a trainer to teach you to use an e collar? Seems like the foundation is so poor right now an e collar would just make things muh, much worse. They CAN be used for hands off control to move a dog from point a to point b but this situation just sounds like chaos with a healthy dose of aggression and I really think e collar would make it worse. 

I couldn't play your video so no input there...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

PS stress of boarding compounded by stress of camping (because for this dog it is stressful and not fun) surely made everything worse- and probably why you are seeing new aggression/guarding. A fact but not including any blame for you...

You guys just need a happy labrador to enjoy your lives with...

Is it resource guarding or fear? Who knows, definitely sounds like resource guarding. He is intimidating ppl and that must be his payoff. Probably a super insecure dog who is stressed out, intimidates somebody and feels like he has got some control now.

Why can't you scold him...regardless of why disciplining an aggressive dog a lot of the time makes them more mad depending on what you did/said. 

Things can get worse before better if you are having an extinction burst but that's not what this is...this is a dog who isn't happy or comfortable at all in his life and he is lashing out and potentially bullying you guys.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yeah, this dog needs correction to learn what he is doing is not acceptable. Standing there tells him nothing. Would you care if the police pulled you over and gave you a disapproving look only? There needs to be consequences. 

I can recommend some trainers who can do meaningful phone consults perhaps. Best one I know was on this forum sometimes. He is excellent but not anywhere near you to do something in person. 

I'm sorry you have been failed by trainers you've sought for help. I have been there, done that and it was that forum member who was able to really help me in all things dog and dog training. But it's not easy... you have to commit and be willing to try and fail and try again. 

PM me. I don't want to discuss behavioral issues like this on a public forum.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

And yeah, I do agree totally that this dog may be a bad fit for your lifestyle. A sweet lab or even a well bred GSD with the right temperament would just be a joy for you, not a burden.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Have you tried the desensitization route as suggested by Dave or the variation I suggested? It is pretty much standard procedure for behavior modification for resource guarding. 

I agree that the boarding, camping and exposure to a lot of new people, dogs, and environments set you way back. 

I doubt that your dog is being stubborn or telling you to F off. The sooner you get those notions out of your head, the better. Dogs don't think like that. 

Stop trying to take things away from this dog. Most likely someone else spent quite a bit of time previously taking things off of him so he would not develop resource guarding and created a lot of this problem in the first place. In the case of the bone, I would have simply lifted him by the collar until he released it and then kicked it way and managed the dog. Have you been working on a Leave It command?

Dogs don't generalize well. Just because your dog's behind hits the ground every time you say "sit" while in your kitchen does not mean he will do it at the dog park or even in your own backyard. In other words, expect different behaviors and reactions from your dog in new environments such as your dog not reacting well to somewhat familiar people when he is stressed even further by being placed in new and unfamiliar circumstances yet again.


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## SeniorGSD (Aug 22, 2019)

Couple of observations here.

In the video he is basically telling you to go away. I would consider that more of the GSD “talk” than a growl. GSD are a vocal breed.

Boarding him when he hasn’t completed bonding with the family and home is a bad idea. You got him from a shelter, yes? You have a dog being shuffled around when you haven’t made his home his home. He has no idea if you’re coming back or just dumping him like has happened in the past. He doesn’t know if your home is his home, or a van, or RV, or whatever you use. He needs stability at home before you introduce him to all these activities.

I don’t understand why you have not made any verbal corrections with this dog. I skimmed the thread but watched both videos. I haven’t once heard anyone give him correcting commands. Why are you ***** footing around with this dog? He’s been given zero structure, zero boundaries, and no balance. Of course he’s making his own rules, no one else is doing it for him. 

You reward him with treats for some good behaviors. But you aren’t solid with it. Shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, a treat. Verbal cues are just as important to let your dog know what is good and what is bad behavior. It’s should go shake, yes. Shake, yes. Shake, no. The yes for good behavior with excitement in your voice, the no when he ignores or growls. In a firm tone. You’ll get farther with that than with an e-collar.

Come up with a key word for bad behaviors that both you and your wife can use. When he growls, use it. Every single time. Enough, stop, don’t, nope. Just pick a word and stick with it when you’re not training for good behavior.

He does not need to be around children or others without a muzzle. No exceptions. You need to be in control of your dog and make his decisions for him, not wait to see what his reaction will be. 

IMO I see more of an owner problem then a dog problem.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I agree that the dog needs structure, boundaries and I said from the first post I thought he needed a correction to be aure he understood this stuff isn't acceptable.

What I don't agree with is coming down on these people like they've done something wrong.

They are trying to get professional help and trying to follow what they were told. For that matter a lot of ppl on here said he is fearful, let him acclimate etc.


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## SeniorGSD (Aug 22, 2019)

I didn’t come down on anyone. He’s asking for advice. I gave him advice. I wasn’t aware that only sugar coated advice was welcomed. If that is how this website runs, I wish you all the best with your dogs. 

The advice he got from the trainer is questionable at best. Better to keep my mouth shut than give my honest opinion on what would really help this dog and his owner? Owners are often at fault without realizing it until it’s pointed out to them. Trainers train owners just as much if not more then the dog.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

You guys are fast! 

Thecowboysgirl, our camping is 99% remote, alone, and perhaps once a year will be with other people around. On our first camping trip, alone, he was great. He didn't wander far, came back every time and enjoyed himself immensely. I don't know of any trainer to help us with an e-collar, it was just a thought as we get more desperate or run out of other options. I'll do some research. 

Muskeg, we were initially holding off on corrections as it was initially felt to be a fear issue, one that would be exaggerated by correcting him or that would simply teach him not to growl whereby he would bite without warning in the future. I sent you a message. 

MineAreWorkingLine, yes we did/are attempting that advice when possible. The issue now is that 90% of the outbursts are inside the crate where we aren't able to remove him from the situation. And we don't trust him outside of the crate. So I am not sure quite what we should do. The weird thing is that most of the time he's completely fine around Jen, he'll do commands, rollover and she can pet his tummy, he behaves as you would hope. Yesterday he sat and watched her walk into the crate/closet and he was completely fine about it, ears up, no stress. So any advice on how to adjust your suggestions to him being locked up and uncomfortable would be greatly appreciated? She's still the one feeding him, giving treats often for good behaviours and ignoring him unless he comes over and sits down like I've taught him.

SeniorGSD, welcome to the forum! I don't think anyone is telling you to sugarcoat advice, more just try not to sound like a ****. Perhaps if you hadn't "skimmed" the thread you might have noticed I am fully aware that myself and Jen will need to address our own behaviour, why do you think we insisted on trying to get a behaviourist to our house rather than on the phone? So before giving "honest advice" in such a course manner, please try and get an understanding of the complete picture to avoid rubbing people the wrong way. And I am fully aware of the risk to children he poses, I was in full control of him. And we didn't want to put him into boarding, so we found the best one we could. I had a job I wasn't expecting come up last minute. I believe you have misinterpreted many aspects I have tried hard to convey, 

IMO this is more of a you problem than a me problem.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Whom, his resource guarding extends beyond his crate. You saw that camping. You have to start with the dog below his threshold. That means start working him in an area of the house or yard where he demonstrates low levels of stress and use a treat or toy of little value to him.

You need to work completely through small incremental steps gradually increasing the value of location and resource. Once he goes over threshold, you are going to fast. Step back to your last successful practice and repeat. If you are successful there, you may need to add an intermediate step between the one where he was successful and the one where he went over threshold. It takes time and patience.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

SeniorGSD said:


> I didn’t come down on anyone. He’s asking for advice. I gave him advice. I wasn’t aware that only sugar coated advice was welcomed. If that is how this website runs, I wish you all the best with your dogs.
> 
> The advice he got from the trainer is questionable at best. Better to keep my mouth shut than give my honest opinion on what would really help this dog and his owner? Owners are often at fault without realizing it until it’s pointed out to them. Trainers train owners just as much if not more then the dog.


Okay, well you said it was an owner problem, not a dog problem

I totally disagree. I could give these people my lab and they would be having a safe and lovely time. 

This dog was probably surrendered for these same behaviors and has probably practiced them on other people already.

I don't think I gave sugar coated advice either. I just feel for these ppl who have tried to help a messed up dog, tried to follow advice they were given by forum and trainers.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Whom said:


> You guys are fast!
> 
> Thecowboysgirl, our camping is 99% remote, alone, and perhaps once a year will be with other people around. On our first camping trip, alone, he was great. He didn't wander far, came back every time and enjoyed himself immensely. I don't know of any trainer to help us with an e-collar, it was just a thought as we get more desperate or run out of other options. I'll do some research.
> 
> ...


I think I understand what you are saying about the unpredictable nature of when he reacts, it sounds like it is tough to manage him to a point where you can train under threshold and not have him locked up all the time. At least that's how I understand what you sre saying.

That's a tough thing to get by, trying to find a neutral place to start with a dog that is acting out all over the map. What about an outdoor kennel with shelter for him to have quiet time where he is alone and hopefully calm where you guys don't have to manage. And then bring him in when you are prepared to make it work?

That way your house is yours again and you focus on it being YOUR house that the dog is invited into when his behavior is appropriate, a privilege he earns for being a nice pet and then he goes away so everyone can have down time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A systematic desensitization protocol and strict, consistent rules need to be applied to this dog. That shouldn't include anything harsh, but firm and very consistent are of utmost importance. 

I agree that people are harder to train than dogs. Most of my training is that of handlers and owners, not dogs.

I am available for a phone consult if you are interested. PM me and I will give you my phone number to call. 

SeniorGSD, just don't be rude. You can certainly find a way to convey your message in a manner that is not demeaning or disrespectful. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and their own struggles in life.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well here is my last thought on it all...after I finally got that video to play.

He definitely wants you to leave him alone. That's all he wants as far as I can tell in that video. 

Which leads me to wonder-- how often is this dog being truly ignored and not the center of attention? His behavior makes him the center of attention which ironically might be the opposite of what he really wants. AND the opposite of what he needs.

He needs to decompress after his bad stretch anyway. Have you tried both of you totally ignoring him? Just pretend like he isn't there at all. I remember I think David Winners saying carry on your life and ignore him once early on.

Have you ever tried a NILIF week with minimal eye contact and minimal affection etc for him. keep him out of the fray--- he should be on the periphery, like crated in a back room or in a back corner. Just nowhere near the center of the action. Start completely over with a 2 week shut down with as little looking, touching and talking as possible. Little to no outside world. He might breathe a sigh of relief and calm down? 

Anybody have a good link explaining 2 week shutdown?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> A systematic desensitization protocol and strict, consistent rules need to be applied to this dog. That shouldn't include anything harsh, but firm and very consistent are of utmost importance.


And consistent means time. Could be a long time. Without realizing it, you're trying to live with a different dog then the one you have. You aren't really doing what you want to think you are, because you keep trying to test him or look for results that haven't really been achieved. If you call David, whatever he tells you to do will probably take longer then weeks, especially now.

Just as a reference for time, going from primarily training to just companion with my dogs, its probably about a year to really adapt to it. I'm not talking about any kind of problems with them, only them being completely content with removing something in their life.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Whom, give David a call. He will get you on the right track. 

I think SeniorGSD is here for the dogs first and foremost and has a direct style of expression. Many people on this forum will find it offensive for some reason. Just my observations. I hope SeniorGSD doesn't get run off.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have you ever tried a NILIF week with minimal eye contact and minimal affection etc for him. keep him out of the fray--- he should be on the periphery, like crated in a back room or in a back corner. Just nowhere near the center of the action. Start completely over with a 2 week shut down with as little looking, touching and talking as possible. Little to no outside world. He might breathe a sigh of relief and calm down?
> 
> Anybody have a good link explaining 2 week shutdown?


I've never done a 2 week shutdown, but this explanation seems good: https://www.marshmallowfoundation.org/info/file?file=20866.pdf

This is my go-to for NILIF: https://k9deb.com/nilif/

To me, NILIF is about adding predictable rules and structure to a dog's environment. Want something? Here's how you ask for it. There was a link at one time on the NILIF page about a 48 hour social isolation that you could use first, if necessary, but it's not there anymore. I talk about it in this old post: https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...r-social-isolation-nessesary.html#post2503359


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > A systematic desensitization protocol and strict, consistent rules need to be applied to this dog. That shouldn't include anything harsh, but firm and very consistent are of utmost importance.
> ...


For a time frame of reference, my latest addition, a fearful Cane Corso with a bite history, he's just now becoming what I would consider to be a good, confident dog in his own skin.

We've had him a year and I still work with him daily because there is still an uncomfortable state that he gets into sometimes. I was walking into the house, just yesterday, carrying a box on my shoulder. He heard my truck and was expecting me at the door. When I opened the door and he saw something he didn't expect, he reacted by putting on a big display to scare me away. I put him in a down stay and walked by him with the box. 

Now, every time I walk through the garage to come in the house, I pick up something different and carry it in with me so he gets used to it. The rest of the family will do the same.

It will probably be another 6 months before he's completely off a drag line in the house, done with OB proofing under distraction and allowed to walk with the grandkids without supervision.

Whatever you decide to do, you need a plan and you need to stick to it. I would be working OB.with this dog 5-6 times a day, maybe more depending on the drive level of the dog. I would have him on a long line, out running around somewhere he is comfortable, burning off steam and energy. Getting rid of cortisol. Swimming would work even better. The dog would never be loose in the house. It would be in a kennel or on a tether.

I understand the 2 week shutdown, but I never really do it. From the moment I meet a dog, I'm me. I'm the guy with the food. The guy with the rules. The guy that will leave you alone or interact with you depending on your behavior. The guy that you know will be consistent and fair. I prove it every day. I'm the coolest guy ever (in dog terms. I'm really just a dork).

I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all! It's just not something I do myself.


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## SeniorGSD (Aug 22, 2019)

@Thecowboysgirl, I could give him my Collie and I’m sure he would be fine too, because he is a stable well behaved dog. I’m not saying that OP would ruin any dog given to him, I’m saying he isn’t handling the dog he has correctly. The dog came with the issues, that’s where the “it’s an owner problem, not a dog problem” came into play. He is handling it like it’s a stable well trained dog, and this is not the case. He needs to provide a completely different set of skills for this dog then a average dog owner would use. I understand that they are working through this. Good for them! I’m merely giving advice for the actions of the dog, and the lack of action of the owners. 

I am retired Air Force, we are taught clear direct answers, anything more is just going to put your unit at risk. 30yrs of that is not going to wash away just because I retired.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

@SeniorGSD, you sound like my late father (USA dog handler). He thought I was a "softie" when it came to managing dogs and, later, my teenage boyfriends. Which was/is pretty hysterical if you knew me IRL. A little honey can go a long way...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

SeniorGSD said:


> IMO I see more of an owner problem then a dog problem.


To me it's both; a bad combo. Can work or not. The odds of this not working, resulting in a potential disaster are pretty evident to me.
(I didn't see much offensive in his/her comment; just being direct.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks again everyone, it's been extremely helpful having you guys to bounce thoughts off and get advice. I'm doing my best to take it all in, and I learn best when I understand why I'm doing something, I am bad at just doing what I'm told without knowing why I'm doing it. But you guys have been good explaining the reasoning.

As we get closer to establishing what we should be doing, and believing in it, then we'll be happy to take the time. The worry is approaching it wrong and wasting months. We've got some solid advice on what we should be doing, and we're thinking about how to implement it as quickly as possible to our circumstances. 

It really is unpredictable. For example, Jen was just getting ready for work, and I was doing obedience with him the whole time, back and forth, she was just doing her thing. He was initially in his crate, but whining to be let out so when he shut up for half a minute I let him out, thinking spending time with Jen around while he's upbeat would be good. After 20 minutes, I was rubbing his belly, and she walks right past and he just glances, doesn't seem to be worried, his tail was relaxed. And then across the room she sits on the sofa (couch) to put her socks on and he suddenly freaks out, jumps up barking. I grab his attention, make him down, and resume commands that I can reward him for. 

David, a phone consult would be great, I'll drop you a PM. What I am really struggling with is how to think like a messed up dog!

I'm going to give a quick run down of an average day, maybe some red flags will pop up. This is days when Jen is working, and it's mostly me and him. When Jen isn't working, we are trying to keep the same routine as much as possible with Jen involved as much as possible. Again, she always feeds him when she's here, by hand mostly, and does lots of obedience training with him.

I get up, he is in the crate. Usually quite mellow still, sometimes whining a little when he hears movement. I'll let him out but ignore him. We have tried to implement NILIF and he knows what's expected of him. He will always sit when he wants something, out the door, food, a pet. He has to work for everything, attention included. We tell anyone that comes round to just ignore him too, he's more comfortable that way. 

A quick coffee, head collar on and we go for a 1.5 hour route we do every day. He heels pretty well, much less sniffing and stalling than used to be the case. After a bunch of streets we get to some grass and forest. Here I let him sniff around, explore, do his doggy stuff. There's a bench I make him jump over, or climb on, he enjoys that. 

Back home, back in the crate. I make my breakfast, then feed him his. Always making him work, I mix this up a lot, currently teaching him to calm down before he gets anything. Then back in the crate.

I'll do some computer work, bits and bobs, maybe have to pop out shopping. I'll bring him out the crate once or twice to do some obedience training, or try and desensitise him to the muzzle, or nail clipping etc. Then around lunchtime I take him down to a creek at the back of the property where we live. It's his big playground, I've been cutting back brush while he sticks nearby exploring, never wandering far away. He found a ball down there, and now it's his absolute favourite thing in the world. His obsessive food motivation means nothing when he has that ball, he doesn't care for anything other than that ball. 

QUESTION: I want to tire him out, so I want to play fetch. He will come to me with the ball, he isn't good at dropping it but he will reluctantly "give". It's tough because I can't bribe him with anything as it comes above all else, but he loves chasing it and will come when I call and will release it when I say give, but I know he doesn't want to. So 3 times out of 4, I'll make him come, and then tell him "free". 
I don't know if this is bad? Not consistent? Something he values? 

And then after 45 mins to an hour we head back up. But I have to make him leave the ball outside, because I think it would cause issues if Jen ever walked near it. So I have to take it off him, but is this adding to his complex? 

Back in the crate, usually with a full kong. He comes out the crate once or twice more for more obedience, and later in the evening a quick stroll around on the leash. He settles in pretty early, we feed him after we've eaten which is reasonably late. 

Is this a good routine? Our landlords have a huge pen he could chill out in if we could trust him with their pet goat... which I don't think will happen. But he spends close to 3 hours outside every day, but I know he could do more, my goal was to train to follow me on my bike, and I am going to start working on that down at the creek soon. We need to get him running more without having to steal his prized ball from him to fetch.


We're trying our best, but it's hard. Especially for Jen, after a 12 hour nursing shift of injured, demented, drunk or high patients shouting, crying, pooping themselves and generally being hard work... to come home tired and then get yelled at by this stupid dog, oh man :|


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

It sounds like you are giving him a lot of stimulation and exercise. It's amazing to me how much you are doing for him and how hard you are working! He sounds like he is on the way to being very well-trained.

On the Fetch - I always see forum members mentioning "two ball" as a way to teach your dog to drop the first ball and chase a second. To end the game, could you have a ritual? Like, "Sit", then "Drop It", then praise and give him some treats. So it ends on a happy obedient note instead of, 'man, my owner took the ball and now all my fun is over and I have go in my crate.' (I wouldn't want to turn in my ball either!)

On the issue of corrections/discipline/dominance...I do believe that you can let your dog know your displeasure without frightening him. Stern voice, disapproving expression, perhaps take him by leash to crate area for a time-out? It's not physical pain or threatening scary gestures, but in my inexperienced opinion, you do need to somehow to mark the behavior as Wrong.

One question is, based on your daily schedule, he seems to spend a LOT of time in the crate, but if that is what forum members recommended to keep Jen safe, then I guess it's OK? 

Lastly - he sounds like a neurotic difficult dog. :-(

When our rescue first growled at my husband, my husband yelled at him and threatened to send him back to the rescue. It was almost comical - every time my husband shouted, the dog responded with a low growl. I had to intervene with a long lecture about dog behavior/dog psychology and my husband agreed to give him another chance. We worked on the issue for weeks (with my husband commanding "Sit" every night and putting down his dinner, and bringing him for more walks, etc) and all is OK now. But if he had continued to growl at my husband, we would have both agreed that he should go back to the rescue...family first!


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## SeniorGSD (Aug 22, 2019)

It sounds like you are putting too much into this. Your normal daily life now consists of you constantly trying to find a fix for your dog. Work smart, not hard. He needs mental stimulation to keep from growing bored. Exercise is to get energy out, and dogs need more than exercise. Have you looked into any puzzle toys he can have in his crate? Kong’s are great, but they get boring fast. Look on chewy.com for puzzle games. It will mentally stimulate him, and combined with exercise, training, and mental stimulation, you should have a much calmer dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Good video with some applicable information.

https://youtu.be/qmV8eQGQXkY


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Two ball sounds like a good idea, but we need to find a ball to match his bestest ball in the whole wide world!! We're trying all we can for this pup, but of course we come first. We just can't bring ourselves to give up just yet. It has been close a couple of times, oh so close. But not yet, and we know we both need to believe in him for us to stand even half a chance.

I don't really have a normal daily life. We just got back from our 9 month honeymoon and I'm setting up a 3D printing business. The effort I'm putting in now is to get him trained up for the rest of his life (working on the assumption we can fix his broken brain!). He is 80% less reactive on leash, his recall is 70% and he'll heel pretty well now. He's a little better with strangers, and barely pulls on the leash now even without the halti on. I'm just putting in the groundwork, and once he can be trusted off leash we can wear him out quicker. 

Good shout on the mental stimulation, I've been half arsed trying to get him to do some agility type stuff, but will check that website out thank you. 

Thanks David, that is a much better video than a lot that I keep finding where they show off how good they are with dogs without explaining what they are actually doing. It makes a lot of sense, and when I understand I find it easy to put into practice. Thank you so much. And funnily enough, today I tried how he does following me on my bike. He's amazing at it, on leash or off he just chases along behind having a great time. It's worn him out a treat today, so I'll keep at it. 

Jen is off work for a few days. We're trying to incorporate all we can to begin desensitising him and helping him trust her. Weirdly, he freaked out with just me in the house walking past his crate this morning, It seems that sometimes it's just his go to response to not knowing what's going on. I really hope we can turn him around, and I'm sad that humans have thus far failed him.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yes that was a great video (includes desensitization to large pigs as well?) and I am such a fan of his training manner and methods!

So a question remains...everything went perfectly for Stonnie in the video.
But what if...that dog was going by another dog and lost his focus and lashed out? Or, the dog was in the Sit Stay and suddenly broke it and jumped on another dog? What does Stonnie do then? Does he just figure he went over threshold and go back to patiently training, training, retraining? Or does he ever use a negative marker like "NO"? hmmm.

Because that is what OP's dog does - in spite of training and being kept busy, he will sometimes just lash out. Is there ever a time when a negative approach should be used? (For instance, I am a loving parent...but I do not let my kids get away with things. They know where the lines are and what consequences are. Is it that different with dogs...)


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Gotta say, I’m pretty dang jealous of a 9 month honeymoon! That’s pretty unheard of in the states. 

Some people use positive only training. Some use the outdated macho alpha training. I’ve always found it far better to be a balanced trainer. Reward for good behaviors, correct for bad behaviors. But that’s just me, and we know I’m a wreck, so maybe take that with a grain of salt. 

If he’s started growling at you as well as Jen, he’s escalating his behaviors because they net him the desired reaction, which is to send you away. 

When DH tries to train our pups, they bark at him because they don’t want training. And he backs down and ends training. They’ve each tried it with me a time or two, but I don’t allow it, and put a quick stop to it. My methods are probably too questionable to post on a public forum, but if you’re curious as to how I achieved the barking, and the resource guarding issues, feel free to shoot me a PM. And no, I never physically touch my dogs, I don’t beat or pin them, or roll them. It’s just something I’ve found works on reactive dogs, and it’s simple, but doing it the wrong way could end with bad consequences, and I’ve learned that people read here much more than they post, so a newbie trying it out on a reactive dog isn’t what I want to promote on an open forum.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jchrest;9188805
When DH tries to train our pups said:


> I find this rather interesting.......training sessions with all of the GSDs ( from pups to adults) I've had over the years were always met with excitement and complete willingness.......I must be lucky I guess.
> 
> 
> At times I had the opposite problem.....dog trying to goad me into training sessions via barking.
> ...


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Biking- I recommend that you buy a Springer dog attachment to exercise Oso. That way he is under control but still gets a great workout. It won't solve the other issues, but it may help him relax more. 

As for the ball- take away his favorite ball for now and control access to that resource. Use a two tennis balls or chuck-its or whatever you select for the two-ball game. The special ball can be whipped out as an extra special reward for a job well done! 

Perhaps Jen can take some confidence building classes like kick-boxing or similar? It can really help with the way you carry yourself and how the dog sees you. Please don't think this is any sort of negative thing- I had to consciously train myself to work on my stance and head carriage in part for my job and in part while working dogs. Sometimes, if it's not a natural thing for you (and it isn't for many women), you have to actively work on it. I still remind myself, shoulders back, head up, when going on to job sites. (I work in a very male dominated field). It's a little thing but it can make a big difference. Dogs have evolved to read our body language almost better than we can, and they pick up on these things in an instant. Even if it is acting at first, eventually it becomes more natural.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@SuperG, it’s not a frighting bark, more of a play bark. DH plays with the dogs, a lot, so they respond to him more as a playmate. I do little play and more training. They all love training, just not so much with DH as the one doing it. Our trainer is working with him on this. They’ve gotten better, but not 100% with DH yet. They just still want him to play.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Whom, I'll be in touch tomorrow. I have a full day today.

OK, you're on the right track here. I would do less crate time and more hanging out with you during your normal day, no matter how abnormal it may be to you. The goal here is to socialize the dog to the environment in which it is going to be expected to live. Keep some treats handy and calmly reward good behavior throughout the day. If you need to keep him near you to avoid bad behavior, just use a tether of some kind.

I will explain this more when we talk, but it is very important for any outbursts he has to be met with indifference. A stern quit it, and then onto life. If you make a big deal out of it, it becomes a big deal to the dog. I would like to see video of Jen feeding Oso if it's possible. It's a good sign that he will take food from her, but if he's not comfortable while doing so, you may be slowing things down. I would rather see you working with Oso on your own around Jen than forcing the dog to interact with her if he's at all uncomfortable.

It almost never happens that we won't try and push a dog too far too fast. If the dog acts up, just control the dog and move away until he calms down. If the dog will settle, try and have a couple more successful reps at what you were doing, at a lower stimulus level and then put the dog up. It's hard to remember that successful reps are more important than rushing. You always want to get just a little closer and make it that much further today. 

I second the recommendation of 2 ball. I discourage the use of tennis balls. The glue can have a negative effect on the enamel on their teeth, I like Chuck It balls personally, and they are available in several sizes.

For mental stimulation, nose games work well. Hide little piles of food or stuffed toys around the house or yard and have the dog find them. Trick training is great. Exposure to new stuff is good too. I like to take my dogs to a new location a couple times a week if possible. They don't have to be big hiking trips or anything. I will throw a harness on a dog and head to Wal-Mart to walk around the parking lot and surrounding area. New stuff is always fun.

Dogs read our body language FAR BETTER than we do. You can't lie to a dog.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks again everyone, I won't read too much into it but after a lot of time with Jen, myself and the pup doing obedience and cycling around we had an incident free evening, night and morning. He has also seemed much more settled today, lying on his side and not resting his head on his paws keeping watch when he sleeps. One tiny step in the right direction.

Funnily enough Jen does do a recreational boxing class, and I've noticed the ladies there that do the teaching have a very... assertive stance. Jen's isn't bad, unless she's just come from from a 12 hour night shift etc. 

David you're a champion, I'll get that video asap and fire it over. I feel that he is comfortable, his tail was wagging during normal obedience and he was having lots of fun with us both. And with the food, he's just so overwhelmed with the concept of dinner that he is only focused on that. Jen tried calling him away with hotdog chunks yesterday, and he came right over and sat down leaving his bowl behind. We're both able to walk over to him when he is eating, we can both call him away (with some reluctance on his part). 

It's actually a chuckit ball that he found, so maybe we just need 1 more and to make it taste like his own saliva and then they'll match! And today we did go out into the forest, he enjoyed wandering around off leash and found some bones to chew. He bought them over to us, but did growl just one tiny bit when I walked past once. 

Jen is better rested today, and it's making them both more relaxed. Maybe she should just quit work for another 9 months... 

Our landlady is someone he seems to distrust immensely. She's often rushing, or flustered and it puts him on edge every time. She came into our suite earlier with Jen before I knew what was going on and he was barking at her (not snarling/growling, just barking), so I kept doing obedience nearby, slowly getting closer but keeping his focus on me. After 5 minutes of that he didn't bark again, was just curious and pretty comfortable. Just like Sonnie showed me :grin2:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> For a time frame of reference, my latest addition, a fearful Cane Corso with a bite history, he's just now becoming what I would consider to be a good, confident dog in his own skin.
> 
> We've had him a year and I still work with him daily because there is still an uncomfortable state that he gets into sometimes. I was walking into the house, just yesterday, carrying a box on my shoulder. He heard my truck and was expecting me at the door. When I opened the door and he saw something he didn't expect, he reacted by putting on a big display to scare me away. I put him in a down stay and walked by him with the box.
> 
> Now, every time I walk through the garage to come in the house, I pick up something different and carry it in with me so he gets used to it. The rest of the family will do the same.


How do you keep your family (age kids?) safe with a fearful CC in the house with a bite history? Was he loose in the house prior to you coming in with that box on your shoulder?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> How do you keep your family (age kids?) safe with a fearful CC in the house with a bite history? Was he loose in the house prior to you coming in with that box on your shoulder?


The dog wasn't around kids without a leash on and constant supervision until I had him for several weeks. My 9 year old granddaughter, who lives with us, has been around working dogs since she was 2. My wife has more experience than that. My 2 adult kids have been training dogs with me since they were 2 years old. My granddaughter is very confident and knows how to act around bitey dogs. We slowly introduced her friends to the dog while in a muzzle until I knew how he was going to react. I also trained her friends to act appropriately around him. Everyone who regularly interacts with my dogs is on the same page. Any friends that were scared of him were desensitized just like I would a dog.

The dog is loose in the house 24/7. Kids come and go all the time. Our house is the cool house in the neighborhood and it's a hang out for all my granddaughter's friends. Many of our friends and both our adult children come into the house without knocking. It's about the dog knowing what normal is, and being comfortable with that. Yes, we ran into a situation where the dog wasn't comfortable. He had an appropriate response and came right out of a defense mindset when he figured out it was me. Now he likes people carrying things. It leads to scratchies and treats because he understands that it's normal.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thought I would do another update. We're both feeling a lot better about this pup, it feels like we're through the worst of it and starting to make some slow progress.

He is spending a lot less crate time, only really at night now. He's got all his stuff, his bed, a rug, his toys and a kong are always available to him (for the last month this has been the case). At the start this made the behaviour appear most frequently, but lately it's much less frequent. I'm using cycling to tire him out a little more, and Jen is feeling much better about him, which is reflecting in how he behaves around her. 

Typically, he'll freak out just in evening usually just once or twice as we're going to bed. Sometimes in the mornings too. The other night the crate door was still open and Jen came nearby and he rushed out barking and snarling but it was a lot less committed than before, he stopped moving as soon as I said "ahhhttt!" and retreated when I told him to "back". He moved back in a skulking kind of way, like either he was scared, or he knew he had done wrong. Any advice on picking up how to read the difference? 

It feels like this is just his go-to reaction to being made uncomfortable or unsure and guarding his sleeping location. He doesn't seem as fearful as before, and it doesn't seem quite as committed as it once was. When he is in that "state" he yawns and licks his mouth a lot, signs of stress as we were told by the behaviourist.

I wish I knew how to "unteach" this behaviour, rather than just make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it. Obviously it might happen with others even if we could "unteach" it, but it would be nice to alter the behaviour rather than just him getting used to us. Of course I know David's advice to take him away, get him doing obedience elsewhere etc will teach him to walk away when he is uncomfortable, but because it's a guarding thing I don't think he would ever choose to leave what he is defending and walk away unless called away. 

When we have strangers (to him haha!) round, he will bark at them. But it only takes 3 or 4 minutes of obedience around the house with them in the background with Jen, me working him closer and closer before he's fine with them. It's remarkably quick. My parents are visiting from the UK in a couple of weeks, I have already started training them to meet him haha!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Whom said:


> I wish I knew how to "unteach" this behaviour, rather than just make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it.


I am by no means an expert and I haven't read every post on this thread, I just wanted to comment on this particular sentence. _*Generally*_, if a particular behavior is a reaction based on the dog not being comfortable about a situation, if you can change the dog's emotional response to that kind of situation so he's no longer feeling uncomfortable, the behavior will eventually resolve. 

I can't say that this will definitely happen with your dog. But doesn't it make sense that if he IS feeling insecure and behaving in undesirable ways because of that, (again, I'm not saying for sure that's what's happening here), if he learns to trust you and your wife and no longer feels insecure around either of you, he will no longer have a reason to behave this way?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I wish I knew how to "unteach" this behaviour, rather than just make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it. Obviously it might happen with others even if we could "unteach" it, but it would be nice to alter the behaviour rather than just him getting used to us. Of course I know David's advice to take him away, get him doing obedience elsewhere etc will teach him to walk away when he is uncomfortable, but because it's a guarding thing I don't think he would ever choose to leave what he is defending and walk away unless called away.


To go along with what Debbie answered, my first step would be let him get comfortable. Before you can teach him something new, you have to end what you don't want. Sometimes you have to correct them to end something, in this case I'd try giving it time to change in his mind. 

And along with what David said, there's nothing wrong with calling him away from something to alter his perception in that moment. An example is one of my dogs. He'll bring and give me anything he has. He's as possessive as they come, but I don't think I've ever "taken" anything from him. He willingly gives it. That comes from a foundation put on him as a puppy, but to get to that with your dog, I think you first need to calmly let him get comfortable. Thats when you get that chance to re-teach things.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> To go along with what Debbie answered, my first step would be let him get comfortable. Before you can teach him something new, you have to end what you don't want. Sometimes you have to correct them to end something, in this case I'd try giving it time to change in his mind.


:thumbup: I had no problem telling my dogs to knock it the heck off if they were doing something I didn't like. But since this is a 15 month old dog that you haven't had for very long who is already exhibiting troublesome behavior I think patience is wise before you begin to add corrections. IME, establishing trust and being consistent and fair, predictable even, will go a long way with this dog. 



> And along with what David said, there's nothing wrong with calling him away from something to alter his perception in that moment. An example is one of my dogs. He'll bring and give me anything he has. He's as possessive as they come, but I don't think I've ever "taken" anything from him. He willingly gives it. That comes from a foundation put on him as a puppy, but to get to that with your dog, I think you first need to calmly let him get comfortable. Thats when you get that chance to re-teach things.


^ This too. I had the luxury of raising my dogs from ages varying from 9 weeks old to 5 months old when we brought them home. Having that opportunity to work on foundation behaviors from fairly young ages made a huge difference in the dogs they ultimately matured into. Of all our GSDs over 30+ years, Halo was the most likely to have become a resource guarder, but she never was. I did what Steve did, I taught her to bring me things. Sometimes that was one of her toys, or a ball, or a bone, and I thanked her and gave it back or traded it for something of equal or greater value. Sometimes I rewarded her with a treat before giving it back, sometimes not. And some of the time it was a thing she'd taken that I needed to get back from her, like TV remotes, eyeglasses, or potholders. Or knives. :wild: But because I had a well established history of asking her to bring me things she trusted me enough that it was never an issue. Even on the very rare occasion that I did have to pry open her jaws and forcibly remove something (cheese that she'd stolen off the kitchen counter while I was cutting it up for nosework treats - bad dog!), she didn't even growl at me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Whom said:


> I wish I knew how to "unteach" this behaviour, rather than just make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it. Obviously it might happen with others even if we could "unteach" it, but it would be nice to alter the behaviour rather than just him getting used to us. !


Maybe the solution doesn't lie in "unteaching" the behavior. Maybe the behavior is simply who the dog is and you can't change that. What you can do is teach an alternative behavior as suggested by David or you can modify how he "feels" at that time when he acts out. I stand by the advice I gave previously to accomplish just that. 

Look at it this way, if he knew that any time someone approached his den that it was a potential opportunity for a steak tidbit party, how do you think he would feel about people that approach? Of course it takes work and time to get him to that point, but isn't that what you want, a dog happy that somebody is coming his way?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Whom said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I knew how to "unteach" this behaviour, rather than just make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it. Obviously it might happen with others even if we could "unteach" it, but it would be nice to alter the behaviour rather than just him getting used to us. !
> ...


This right here

I think I posted about this in the wrong thread lol. Pardon my inability to keep things straight.

It's almost always easier to teach a dog to do something than to not do something. It's easier to teach a down than to teach a dog not to jump and mouth and be obnoxious. It's easier to teach heel than to make a dog ignore something.

Train a behavior that is acceptable and then build habits. They are powerful.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Hope this doesn't confuse things, but can't you change mindset with punishment? As in, punish the behavior you don't like, the dog's mindset changes because that behavior is no longer giving him the "high" he seeks? 

As for the OP, I think you are on the right track so far- you might consider having Jen take him to agility or rally classes to build a bond between the two of them. This will go a long way toward eliminating the behaviors you don't like. Also, look into dog powered sports- like bikejoring. It's a lot of fun and the training involved builds a dog's confidence and ability to tolerate distractions.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Saco said:


> Hope this doesn't confuse things, but can't you change mindset with punishment? As in, punish the behavior you don't like, the dog's mindset changes because that behavior is no longer giving him the "high" he seeks?
> 
> As for the OP, I think you are on the right track so far- you might consider having Jen take him to agility or rally classes to build a bond between the two of them. This will go a long way toward eliminating the behaviors you don't like. Also, look into dog powered sports- like bikejoring. It's a lot of fun and the training involved builds a dog's confidence and ability to tolerate distractions.


But I think with this dog, its more that he views a lot of things as punishment now. I don't think chasing away demons is the same as trying to satisfy themselves. Combine that with inexperience and I think it may not be so easy to make the right associations with him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Saco said:


> Hope this doesn't confuse things, but can't you change mindset with punishment? As in, punish the behavior you don't like, the dog's mindset changes because that behavior is no longer giving him the "high" he seeks?
> 
> As for the OP, I think you are on the right track so far- you might consider having Jen take him to agility or rally classes to build a bond between the two of them. This will go a long way toward eliminating the behaviors you don't like. Also, look into dog powered sports- like bikejoring. It's a lot of fun and the training involved builds a dog's confidence and ability to tolerate distractions.


Yes, you can change the dog's mindset with punishment. The question is what will the outcome be? Will he think he just can't be a jerk anymore? Will he thing being in the living room is terrible? Will he think you are unfair and untrustworthy? 

Also, is he seeking a high? Space? A Thing?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I think a lot of people tend to overthink a simple issue. It’s understandable to be cautious, and this being a public forum, to only hand out cautious advice, but it really does just come down to an owner and a dog. We can sit around for years debating what causes the guarding, or what methods would be the best approach, what the phycology behind the behavior is and how to rewire certain behaviors, but it’s not going to change this dog, in these circumstances. 

Sometimes you just have to go with what your gut tells you. 

OP is being very soft handed based on advice here, and I’m sure a pretty healthy fear of his wife being bitten, or himself. He’s new to this issue, and the dog. So understandable, even if it’s not the clearest method to cut through all the other stuff to get to the point where the dog can be handled in certain situations. So far, the soft handed approach is escalating the behavior. Which means the dog has no idea that he is displaying unwanted behavior, or is aware and doesn’t care because he knows he can and will get away with it. Will the next escalation be a bite? More than likely, if they continue on the same path. 

The dog needs structure, rules, and a schedule. And a firm no BS handler. We have a situation where neither is happening, so of course the behavior is escalating. The down times where it seems like he is improving is probably just mental exhaustion from the dog being constantly alert and in that alert state 24/7. Then he gets some mental shutdown time, and begins the behavior again on a continuous cycle.

It’s admirable that the OP is wanting to work through this, but at some point in time they will need to either acknowledge the fact that they aren’t suited to this type of dog, and call in a professional rather than relying on mixed advice from this forum, or rehome the dog to someone with experience that isn’t going to fear the dogs behaviors.

Is ignoring the bad behavior and praising the good going to rewire this dog? No one can say for sure. But IMO, it’s never going to work on this particular dog. And that’s all this forum can provide, is opinions. Educated ones, non educated ones, and all the variances in between.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The behavior isn't escalating. Oso is becoming much more comfortable around Jen. The outbursts are becoming less.

They are working through some timing and posture things but making steady headway.

Eventually, I would tell the dog to knock it off and move on. I think right now there is a trust issue that could be exacerbated by a physical correction. JMO


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

David Winners said:


> The behavior isn't escalating. Oso is becoming much more comfortable around Jen. The outbursts are becoming less.
> 
> They are working through some timing and posture things but making steady headway.
> 
> Eventually, I would tell the dog to knock it off and move on. I think right now there is a trust issue that could be exacerbated by a physical correction. JMO


Thanks for the update, I was going off the camping trip post where he did escalate. Good to know OP is working with someone. 

I’ve rarely used physical corrections. Unless you consider body bumping to get them to stop crowding you at the door, or scooting them out of your way with your foot when you’re trying to load the dishwasher they decided to nap in front of. They always look the cutest when they are in your way, it’s almost like they know. 

Anywho, I seem to interchange terms that aren’t interchangeable. A correction for me isn’t physical in the sense that I physically touch a dog. Or use a device to correct, such as a prong pop or zap of an e-collar for behavioral issues. For behavioral issues, I don’t use physical corrections. Just my body as a blocker, with clear concise commands. But I realize one method isn’t going to work for all people or all dogs. 

I’m not opposed to physical methods for non reactive dogs. I walked my Husky on a prong because he could easily pull me down, and every other method didn’t phase him. He has a massive drive for pulling. Instead of denying him his natural drive, we built an urban sled that he could pull my son on. And we taught him when it was appropriate to pull, and when it wasn’t, with the help of a prong. 

Now I’m just talking in circles. Good to hear that Oso is taking a turn for the better, and this thread is definitely a wealth of information. I enjoy seeing differing opinions and methods when a dog or human isn’t in danger of harm.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks again for all the feedback guys. For sure I don't want him to be uncomfortable ever, but I was just thinking out loud. Currently I'm sticking to the "ahhhtttt" followed by sending him "back". He gets it, it stops, he backs up. Then I start asking for "tricks" so I can reward as David suggested long ago. Probably 12 pages ago... wow we talk a lot you guys!

Jchrest I think you might have missed my most recent post, I'm not surprised, it's hard to keep up with all my blabbering. 

Currently, the cycling in the evenings is helping him perk up, and settle down in a better state of mind. I'm calling him away when he shows the very first signs of being uncomfortable (the sign is head to the floor, but looking slightly to the side not moving his head). 

As Jen just did another set (2 days, 2 nights) of shifts, it was clear how he went backwards in his trust of her as the days went by. So it feels like we're going 2 steps forwards, and then 1 step back. Luckily her shift pattern just changed, and she'll be doing less shifts with greater gaps between shifts now. And with David's suggestions, and Jen's ability to take advice, and more sleep now she's not working for a few days, we're working on both of our training "techniques". I think it may come a little more naturally to me, actually, it's just many many hours of youtube is sinking in, but I think I would classify as a firm, no BS kinda human to any dog. 

When I was about 15, my uncle and aunt warned me of a rottie at the stables where her horse was. Not to be trifled with, keep away from it they said. As soon as I got there I told it to sit and it did without a fuss, they were dumbfounded. And you could see in his eyes he didn't know why he was obeying. But there were also three geese at the place and I thought they were going to kill me!

Not for correcting, and not for this issue at all, but I bought an e-collar and am gently going to work that into his life purely as a substitute for collar pressure. The more off leash he can have, and the better understanding of his boundaries the happier he will be. The happier we will all be. 

Hey Steve Strom, did you call Jen a demon?!?! Haha, I think you're right, my inexperience prevents me from applying any risky tactics. And lack of suitable behaviourists out here in the middle of British Columbia means I'll have to play it conservative. 

Saco, funnily enough, we just got a harness today and I thought to myself I need to teach him to pull me along on the bike! But first I need to teach him NOT to pull me along on the bike as he likes to dart sideways haha. And I think the bond building is the key, we're working on that, starting with solid advice from David.

David, thanks again for all the help. It makes sense what you say, especially about building habits. The heel command is already starting to help get his attention away from barking dogs behind fences etc. Applying that principle everywhere makes sense.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My aunts little cockapoo was a big resource guarder. He thought he owned the couch and then led to the entire living room, did bite a few family members. He feared his space would be taken away. 
They had him since a pup and bought from a breeder he had a few screws loose but this was their first dog. I know he was giving more boundaries one being off the furniture and his behavior lessened but always had to be managed. My first gsd Karat when I first got him at the age of 2, would bare his teeth if my boyfriend turned to look at him in the back seat of the car. Karat did not do this anywhere else to him just in the car. We did not acknowledge it or focus on it at all and as they bonded and when my bond with karat strengthened that behavior quickly disappeared. The behavior though was not practiced, ingrained or mistakenly rewarded in any way- I assume ever as it disappeared quickly.

I know you mentioned ignoring the behavior with no improvements. In the video it looks like this behavior has had the chance to be practiced. Oso new to his new home especially at this age still needs boundaries and rules. I would defiantly crate put some gates up in the home. His behavior is sure not earning him free roam of the house. You can try giving the dog instructions as Jen enters the room to go to his spot or place and leave it before this behavior begins. Since the dog is new to the home have Jen walk him but also do some training exercise outside then inside the home. I still would not leave toys out also or any valuable items left around like bones chews etc. put away when done.

Practice leave it’s when he is in the crate. If he growls and barks when in the crate at jen throw a sheet or light blanket over the crate. An indirect correction. Topper my chihuahua at time will rescource guard - bare some teeth at the gsds, if he is lying on the couch with someone and the shepherds come over “to steal his lime light”. Topper then either gets put down on the ground and or covered with a blanket - which seems to extinguish his flame before or after it begins.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Grab the book (booklet) "Training Lead Dogs". It's written by a true dog man, and has a nice step by step process of teaching a dog to pull (lead) reliably. The author dealt with the dogs nobody else wanted- aggression, lack of drive, etc. and trained them to be top sled dogs. His love for all dogs is obvious- but he's also a no nonsense kind of guy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> This right here
> 
> I think I posted about this in the wrong thread lol. Pardon my inability to keep things straight.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why I teach a rock solid sit right from the start. Dog can't jump if it's sitting. Dog can't chase if it's sitting. Dog can't grab if it's sitting. 
It is by far one of the simplest commands to shape and it covers a multitude of sins. Unlike down it doesn't leave dogs feeling vulnerable.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Hey Steve Strom, did you call Jen a demon?!?! Haha, I think you're right, my inexperience prevents me from applying any risky tactics. And lack of suitable behaviourists out here in the middle of British Columbia means I'll have to play it conservative.


I guess I kinda, almost did, Lol. Personally, I'm not a behaviorist type. A good obedience trainer with a verifiable track record is what I'd look for. And I'd also play it conservatively. When it comes to corrections or compulsion in general, the dog has to know why its happening and how to avoid it or make it stop. You can talk generally about some of the simple things, but with your dog I don't think its so black and white. I think you'd be more likely to do like David mentioned and create trust issues, because he's not likely going to understand why he's being corrected or how to avoid it. There's too much going on at once right now. Once everything settles down, you can start from page one and with consistency and the right amount of firm, build the trust.

In your first post I had the impression it was more specific to Jen, but since you posted more I doubt she's the single focus of his problems. The one thing I'd say is, once you see progress, don't automatically assume everythings fine and you don't have to be aware of his behavior . Outside of his comfort zone, he's likely always going to show something like the things you see now.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thought I'd just check in and let you know we are still making steady progress. It's interesting for me to read back over my previous posts and see how much progress there is so this is also my diary!

There's been one or two set backs caused by our overconfidence, Jen was petting his tummy near his crate and he suddenly freaked out, and he did the same to me but less committed at a different time. I know I should have learnt from Jen's mistake.... 

The nighttime/morning freakouts have almost stopped, he's being much much better in general. We've also got better at reading his body language and a bit paranoid with Jen moving about the house. Playing it safe, but it's tiring especially for Jen. I'll call him away if he's laying near the bathroom etc.

He's taking himself to his bed/crate A LOT. And he's also laying on his side near us too, appearing more relaxed, rather than head on his paws ready to pounce kinda position. As the crate is also a closet... there are some things stored at the back. He's never had any problem with me going in there and shuffling things around, just acts curious every time. 

Jen's still feeding him when she's here, doing obedience with him, holding the leash on walks and making him "climb" onto picnic tables etc. David's good advice there, building the trust/relationship between them. We're also trying to give him as much routine as possible, that helps a huge amount with his confidence. 


Trying to condition him to the e-collar is proving really tough! The youtube videos make it look so easy, I know what setting he can feel it on, which is 4 out of 100 and I can see it's hitting a muscle and making it twitch a little, but he doesn't seem to notice or it doesn't change his behaviour. I've tried it on myself and I can feel it at 12 on a muscle on my neck in the same way, so there's no way he doesn't notice it's on. But trying to teach him that it means "come" isn't going very smoothly. I'm persevering, and I'll be consistent and keep trying without bumping the number but it just doesn't seem to be clicking with him.

For reference, the basic approach I am using is to call him, press the button and give the leash a little tug in that order. He knows what the words and the leash means, so I can drop one and he still comes, but even after an hour or two of doing this, if I drop the leash pressure and command the double tap on the e-collar isn't yet associated with that command and he ignores it completely. Not sure what I am doing wrong! I really want his recall to be fantastic so I can keep control of him when he's fearful of a strange dog approaching etc.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd recommend finding a local trainer to help you with the e-collar training.

Glad to hear you are making progress. Baby steps!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Wait a minute! You are doing this for one or two hours?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I took it as 1-2 hours over days of training?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I took it as 1-2 hours over days of training?


Hopefully you are right.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

I don't even have the patience for that! Let alone the dog! 

It's been 2 or 3 sessions over the last 5 or 6 days. 5 or 10 minutes at a time. Slowly slowly teaching monkey.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’ve never used an e-collar for training good behaviors, so no help here. Just wanted to congratulate you for the progress you and Jen have been able to make with him!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I use the e-collar as positive punishment. I never train commands with it. Mark a no, correct with e-collar. Teach him what yes and no means so you have a way to communicate. Use whatever level you need for the dog in that moment. There are no right or wrong levels- just the appropriate level for whatever is going on at the moment. I only use the e to correct for either known commands, or if the dog has started chasing wildlife (this is a training thing- and generally only needs to happen once).


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think a member on here recommended the online e-collar course by Ted Ef--- you might want to check that out. And find a local trainer, too.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks guys, the way I've been trying to think of the e-collar is like a really long lead (leash). A way to let him know I can still a apply "pressure" even if he doesn't have the lead clipped on, and that way to know that he can't make the decision to obey or not, or to take his sweet time coming back to me as is sometimes the case now. It's for that reason that I have been trying to teach him it means the same as the leash, attempting to mimic some tutorials that came to me recommended. There's always the chance he's had an e-collar on before and taught something different, or nothing at all. At least he isn't scared of it.

I am certainly not using it to teach any commands, he loves food so much I can make him do any trick for a treat even after he's just eaten. My plan is that once he knows I still have the ability to apply distance pressure, that the collar will be phased out and he won't be wearing it very often. 

I will ask around locally, but being in such a small town I am not sure I'll find someone with the experience I need, I'll keep researching. (isn't the internet wonderful (if used correctly!))

Another incident free night and morning, no freaks outs. Jen just wants to love and pet him but it having to work up to it slowly, avoiding prolonged petting etc. Just to keep him comfortable. I'm choosing when I pet him, not letting him ask for it. And I'm still trying to gently probe for any actions that make him uncomfortable (e.g. the Collie we had growing up hated you petting her back legs with you hand, but your foot was OK). Reassuringly he seems pretty content however I pet him, but if I get too rough he thinks it's a game and starts mouthing me. Which is where the attention immediately stops. That behaviour is also getting a lot better, he used to mouth a LOT when we first got him. 

My parents are visiting for 10 days, arriving in just a few days. I'm hoping that this won't set him back and I know they'll be happy to work with him. We'll keep him well exercised, do fun things and maintain as much routine as possible.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

While I'm here... (15 pages!!)

What would you do in the situation where a poorly behaved dog with an irresponsible owner comes running over barking at your reactive/fearful dog?

Where I can, when we see another dog (especially larger dogs) is I will cross the road, or on the forest trails near my house I will backtrack and take a different trail. I'm just trying to get him to trust I've got his back, we'll run away you don't need to worry. Then we can work on introductions in the future. Sometimes I can't go another way or cross a road, so I'll keep him close to my side (with his head collar on) and try and keep him focused on "heel" and not the other dog. It works quite well. Keeps him below "threshold". He's usually very interested in the dog, but he'll keep walking with me.

But then you have the idiots, and I've had this three times recently. The first was three dogs running over, the owner yelling and there's nothing I can do, they surround him and his heckles are up but he doesn't lash out. I felt terrible, I couldn't protect him. The second one Jen was with us and she intercepted the stupid dog running at us and barking. 

Then today I see a big dog coming and the owner yelling, so I turn and start walking away but the dog keeps catching so I turn back around, it is barking and approaching, the owner is yelling (to Oso that's probably just more barking) and Oso is pretty scared, I keep him behind me and get between them, I tell the other dog to stay and manage to keep it at bay until the useless owner catches up. 

The head collar keeps Oso from barking when I have a little pressure on it, and I don't know if that helps things from escalating or makes Oso feel more vulnerable? It's a tough situation, I can't exactly scoop Oso up and carry him!


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Is he dog social? 

The vast majority of dogs that are off leash on forest trails are very likely not going to attack your dog - if they did they would not be off leash on trails where they see other dogs regularly. Barking and circling isn't attacking. I'm not saying it's good behavior but I've certainly been on trails where pretty much every dog is off leash and not under control, but everyone thinks it's A-OK because they assume any dog out there is friendly. Because it is a pseudo dog-park. I don't love this- I have a dog who isn't fond of dog rudeness, but again, the dogs we see in those areas are first very easy to scare off from approaching, and second very unlikely to attack. 

I find that making a big deal out of another dog makes my dog think it's a big deal. It is counter-intuitive (because you are understandably upset) but if you talk real relaxed to the approaching dogs "hey, look, what a great dog, hello!" your dog will likely relax, as will the other dog. If Oso is dog friendly, he could say a quick hello and move on. 

If he is not dog friendly, there are lots of tricks people use- but I find walking toward the approaching dog, similar to a Cesar Millan stance, usually drives them off. You don't even need to say anything. Keep your dog in a heel. Reward the dog with praise or treats once you've passed the other dog. People use walking sticks and umbrellas as well. I've used the carabiner on the end of my leash at times- but have never needed anything more. Mostly my voice, body stance, and in-control dogs is enough.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My take in red


Saco said:


> The vast majority of dogs that are off leash on forest trails are very likely not going to attack your dog - if they did they would not be off leash on trails where they see other dogs regularly.
> Yes, in the ideal world. Don't ever count on it. There are a lot of idiots with off leash aggressive dogs. In our area it's the forest trails where people take their off leash dogs because they don't do well in the parks.
> Barking and circling isn't attacking.
> Barking and circling can be a test and can very well lead to a fight and you should never let it go that far.
> ...


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I made an assumption, since the OP lives in I think Vancouver, BC that he is walking on woods trails used by many people and that there aren't regular dog on dog attacks on those trails.

OP, correct me if I'm wrong. But honestly, in the normal world, dog on dog encounters are a common thing and an expected thing and if we are able to control our dogs (call them in to a heel or sit), heading off the other dogs is generally quite easy, with just a bit of understanding of dog behavior and psychology.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks for the input guys. I'm in BC but actually the interior, a small town with the stupid name "Salmon Arm". The trails are really quiet, it's nice. 

With other big dogs, he's pretty fearful/unsure when on the leash. He'll bark if I let him get that far, his heckles go up and he is uncomfortable. 

He is socially inept in my eyes, and usually just sticks his chin on the other dogs back which I take as a test of dominance. He met a female husky once, and she quickly told him what for, he backed down immediately and they roamed happily together off leash from then on. Typically he plays way, way too rough. 

He seems to hate boxers, just can't get on with them. He spent a week at a "no kennels" dog boarding a month or two back and the lady said he was great, apart from he kept pouncing on a boxer he didn't like. And it was a bad introduction to my friends boxer who came running out of his yard right over to Oso, we didn't know the yard gate was open. 

He gets pretty fixated on other dogs when he is on the leash, so where I would like to have him off leash I just couldn't yet call him away. Off leash with my families dogs he isn't so fixated, unless they want to play then he loves it. 

So my dilemma is do I try and keep them apart when an unruly and sometimes obnoxious dog comes over barking, but in doing so I am making a deal of it and raising tension, or do I act like it's nothing and try and get Oso to walk past it with me... even though the other dog probably won't drop it that quickly and follow... What I don't want is Oso being fearful, losing his crap at the other dog, the other dog going away and that reinforcing the behaviour to get rid of dogs he's fearful of. Unless that's fine, but now he becomes the obnoxious dog! The other complication is other owners often have panic in their voice as they try and recall their unruly dog that isn't listening one bit. Which raises the tension all round.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Here is what has worked for me successfully:Standing up straight and remaining calm while blocking the other dog until the owner can retrieve it.After the initial rush and excitement both dogs will calm down when they get a sniff of each other.You'll see both of their noses working like crazy even from a few feet away.If possible ask the other owner to give them a few seconds to chill out.A young puppy may want to keep hopping around wanting to play,but 99%of dogs that we've been 'ambushed' by will sniff around the ground where your dog was walking a moment before and maybe mark over over the spot.The dog can be retrieved by the owner,your dog can sniff the ground where the rascal left it's scent,and then go on about your walk.
Carrying a walking stick with you helps with a more confident means of blocking and saves you from getting slammed into.


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## Whom (Jul 10, 2019)

We lost. Yesterday we returned Oso to the SPCA. It broke our hearts.

It's been ups and downs, but we ended up feeling like we had little choice. While travelling in our van he was uncomfortable standing in the middle, shuffling around, so Jen who was sitting next to my mum at the back summoned him into the trunk area (which is raised a little as the engine is in the back, search "Vanagon Westfalia" if it doesn't make sense). Immediately after he got into the back, he freaked out again (and I saw the whole thing in the rear view mirror) he grabbed at Jen, catching a mouthful of her hair and the hood from her coat. He didn't drop it immediately either, at that second my mind was made up. 

Yes his overall behaviour had been getting better, but I came to accept he was never going to be an animal we could trust, and we aren't in a position to live in fear. 

We loved him, and he trusted me, it was a horrific experience taking him back. He returned a much better and more confident dog than we picked him up, but I just can't shake the feeling he is broken.

We tried everything we could, we worked through lots of things, and he knew what he was doing was wrong but he just kept triggering, often with little warning. I taught him a correction command, so he knew exactly when he'd put a foot wrong, but I never physically corrected him, just got into his space.

We know we did everything we could, Jen had even gotten to the point of being confident enough to send him "back" just at the second he triggered, and he would listen and retreat. But he was freaking out at my parents, and even to me with a seemingly greater frequency. Even after a great start with my parents, a fantastic start, he was so chilled with them around.

So we have no regrets, we hold our heads up high and know we did the absolute best we could for this dog. But this doesn't make it easy, it's one of the hardest, if not the hardest, decision of our lives. 

I cried, Jen cried, the lady at the SPCA cried. We told them everything, gave them all my notes and they said they would do what they could for him.

Thank you again for all your help, we are deeply grateful and it really made a tough experience much easier and more manageable. 

Goodbye Oso, you silly fool, we love you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm so sorry.You really did the very best you could for Oso.But I also know it still hurts.Take care.:hugs::


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’m so so sorry. You both did the absolute best you could do to give Oso a second chance at life, and it didn’t work out. I would have done the same if my spouse or children were ever threatened by any dog in my care. You both went above and beyond what most people would do for this guy. Both of your actions are commendable, both in the amount of time and training you spent on him, and coming to terms with the fact that he was just unsafe for your particular lifestyle, and made the right choice in returning him. I know how painful the feelings will be in the beginning, but it will allow you to grow and learn, and be that much more ready for any future dog you may bring into your home in the future. Best of luck, and kind thoughts going your way and Jen’s during this hard time.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry. I know it's a hard decision and very sad, but you did the right thing for your family.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I've been following your thread and I will say, you have done so much more for Oso than the average person who adopts a dog to be a pet! 
You adjusted your lives and home, and worked so hard and made good progress with his training. I don't know what more you could have done.
I understand that when he grabbed your wife like that, after all her patient work with him, that would be crossing the last line.
It would be for me, too.

I'm sorry for Oso and I hope he finds a home...but I am having trouble imagining what kind of home could fit him best. 
Thanks for trying to rescue him!

I wanted to add, that this is the kind of escalation to be feared...he was growling, snapping, lunging (warning display) ...but now he actually put his mouth on her. To me, that would also be the sign that this was it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am so sorry it ended that way. But we all saw it coming. I am glad that he didn't take your wife's face off in the car. There have been very risky situations described in your posts. Do you know what they are planning for him?
I have dealt with a similar situation in the past; a 9 month old foster pup (born in my hands) and misplaced by the shelter, had bitten children and when I got her back, she was aggressive to us and my dogs, that she even grew up with for 9 weeks. It might have been her wiring or the home she was adopted out to but she was evaluated by a animal behaviorist and deemed 'dangerous'. I know the shelter would have adopted her out again but I didn't want that to happen as they are known to hide flaws and faults. I had her euthanized by my own vet so she cold never injure or kill a kid. It was heartbreaking; a sweet puppy that I raised...
And I had to sell a horse at an auction as it was drugged when I test rode it. He threw me like a bronco three days later. A professional cowboy couldn't stay on either. So rather than reading in the paper that he killed someone, I sold him at the auction. In those past days that meant 'slaughter'. Again, heart breaking; he was a beautiful Arab x Quarterhorse.
OP, heal well and when you are ready, get a nice sound puppy from a good breeder. You deserve it.


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