# fear aggression or dominant aggression?



## xWolf

my guy (pics attached) has just turned 5 months and is lovely for the most part.
we've put our heart and souls into training and socializing him. so i'm not sure what went wrong. we did rush into getting him and i think he has weak genes. a lot of people don't even think he looks full GSD

he's very aggressive when he's out on leash, with both strangers and dogs. he's worse with kids because he hasn't been brought up around kids, because we don't have any in the family. i'm just trying to figure out whether his behaviour is due to fear or dominance, or maybe a bit of both. i am seeing a one on one trainer next month, however there aren't any breed specific in my area so it will be a one time visit and then follow ups as required, and since it won't be until next month i'm doing all i can to read up on behaviour first. but i can't find much about fear vs dominance. i just want to figure out which it is because if it's fear aggression i don't want to reprimand him for fear of making it worse. 

whenever we're out on a walk, he will stop. sometimes lay down. i give him a minute and then get him to continue with a treat. he does this a whole bunch of times. he doesn't seem afraid. maybe a little uneasy. but even if no ones about he behaves like this. if someones walking towards us occasionally he will act aggressively, however this just seems to be the case if he's stopped. like, if we'e sat down in the park and people walk past. even in the distance, he will bark at them. if we're walking and other ppl are walking towards us but ignore him, he will act curious and interested as they pass by, trying to sniff at them. if they walk past he;s fine. however if they pay him attention ,he does this weird thing: he sniffs their hand or if i give them a treat, takes it out of their hand, is fine for like 2 seconds THEN begins barking aggressively, lunging at them and growling . he seems to be fine with other dogs OFF leash. but on leash he's very dog reactive. he almost got thrown off puppy training class for scaring the other dogs. the people at puppy training are all scared of him, though he seems to be doing better with them perhaps because they're now familiar faces. when he acts aggressively towards someone, ive not been telling him off because i was sure it was fear. instead ive been trying to desensitize him from a distance to people, and bringing food out as people go past. he is certainly wary of the environment around him, certain noises he'll take a fearful stance ,wide eyes,ears back. however because he sniffs first THEN barks at people, im now thinking he's testing the waters. 


in the house, he is mostly submissive. he will greet us by rolling over, obeys all his commands (although he's getting to that teenage stage). however he's displaying food aggression towards us. he's VERY food orientated. he's fine when i feed him his meal, i always make him down-stay until i tell him it's ok to eat. with high value treats however, he will run off and growl if we even go near him. he also thinks, if a piece of food drops on the floor it is his. we are trying to train this out of him. i think i made the food aggression worse, one day he picked some garlic bread off the floor and i wenr after him to fish it out of his mouth and he snapped at me. since then he's been more cautious around food.im reluctant to take things off him as i feel it's made the situation worse. at the moment, we're working on trading, positive methods so he doesn't associate negatively with the food. 

other than this, he is obedient to us. when someone comes round the house however, he goes crazy. if he knows them , its fine. a new friend though, he has to put in his crate because lunges,growls,barks at a stranger in the house. I reprimand him for this as i can see its dominance,not fear. he also acts this way with the neighbours. hes basically being territorial of the environment. 

thank you if you've read this far, please reply as i really need some advice. just trying to figure out whether his behaviour outdoors is Fear aggression or dominance aggression, because they both require entirely different methods to treat.

TLDR; 5 month old acting aggressive to strangers and dogs outdoors, wary of environment but sniffs people first then acts out. stops a bunch of times during walks, refusing to go further. definitely wary of his environment; territorial of indoor environment towards strangers, showing food aggression in the house. trying to figure out if outdoor behaviour is fear related or simply testing the waters


----------



## Chip18

Ok then ... well the "good news" is you've taken the first step to getting a handle on this, "out think your dog."  

I don't know if your dog is "fearful" or "aggressive??" The "pro's" say people misinterpret "fear" as "aggression" all the time. I'll give them that. What I do know ... is that your dog is "unpredictable!" If you have a dog that is "unpredictable??" Then you should not be "allowing" people to be touching him. You need to show him how you "expect" him to behave around people. You can't correct a dog for doing something he does not "understand" is inappropriate?? 

Well ... I guess you could but I wouldn't, "train" him first to make "better choices" and when he "clearly" understands what is "expected" of him. Then you can correct him for making "poor choices" ... make better choices dog!

Personally I would lose the freaking treats, I don't "bribe" my dogs into making "good choices" not being corrected and a "good boy/girl" are good enough. Others of course are free to disagree. 

In anycase "people" issues a plenty ...no problem, stop giving him the "opportunity" to keep making poor choices! You already know all you need to know about your for "this" which is ... "I have no idea what my dog will do when he meets someone???"

What I would do and any that chooses to can do is outlined here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html

And kinda links in links here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

But if you follow them aww heck here you go:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

The "Place Command" train "Place" when company comes over ... that is where he goes. Company "ignores" him and your "job" is to keep company out of his face. You will also find "Sit on the Dog" in there. Do that one also and the goal is to "people watch" not interact. Your training him to "ignore" people once he understands that "people" are not a threat to him .. then he is less likely to act a fool. 

And ... your dogs not this bad but the "principles" are the same. I never thought to work my dog around company?? Keeping him from biting the crap out of company ... was good enough for me. 


As always ask questions and welcome aboard!


----------



## DutchKarin

Why is it taking so long to see a trainer? Where do you live? Maybe someone will have a few suggestions near by. I think you should also be thinking about working with a trainer weekly. Someone needs to have eyes on this and really be able to evaluate the dog and you as a handler. However, it does sound like fear btw.


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> Ok then ... well the "good news" is you've taken the first step to getting a handle on this, "out think your dog."
> 
> I don't know if your dog is "fearful" or "aggressive??" The "pro's" say people misinterpret "fear" as "aggression" all the time. I'll give them that. What I do know ... is that your dog is "unpredictable!" If you have a dog that is "unpredictable??" Then you should not be "allowing" people to be touching him. You need to show him how you "expect" him to behave around people. You can't correct a dog for doing something he does not "understand" is inappropriate??
> 
> Well ... I guess you could but I wouldn't, "train" him first to make "better choices" and when he "clearly" understands what is "expected" of him. Then you can correct him for making "poor choices" ... make better choices dog!
> 
> Personally I would lose the freaking treats, I don't "bribe" my dogs into making "good choices" not being corrected and a "good boy/girl" are good enough. Others of course are free to disagree.
> 
> In anycase "people" issues a plenty ...no problem, stop giving him the "opportunity" to keep making poor choices! You already know all you need to know about your for "this" which is ... "I have no idea what my dog will do when he meets someone???"
> 
> What I would do and any that chooses to can do is outlined here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html
> 
> And kinda links in links here:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html
> 
> But if you follow them aww heck here you go:
> 
> Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums
> 
> The "Place Command" train "Place" when company comes over ... that is where he goes. Company "ignores" him and your "job" is to keep company out of his face. You will also find "Sit on the Dog" in there. Do that one also and the goal is to "people watch" not interact. Your training him to "ignore" people once he understands that "people" are not a threat to him .. then he is less likely to act a fool.
> 
> And ... your dogs not this bad but the "principles" are the same. I never thought to work my dog around company?? Keeping him from biting the crap out of company ... was good enough for me.
> 
> 
> As always ask questions and welcome aboard!


Thank you so much for your response 
I'm currently teaching place command, I say "go to your den Vader" and if he goes been rewarding him. I guess you're right about the treats though, I've been using food to distract from negative behaviour because he's so food orientated. Which in its way is bribing.

I tried the "sit on the dog" a while back but I think he was too young. Being a puppy, he is very skittish, hyper and anxious. He sleeps well in his crate, but through the day even if he's left on his own for a few minutes he cries. So when I tried "sit on
the dog" with him tied on a leash, he was crying and barking and going crazy. Guess I need to persist though.

I don't let people pet him, before he got this bad I would let people put their hand with a treat to show him people = good. I'm training him to a muzzle so that ni accidents can happen whilst hes as you say "unpredictable". We haven't used it out yet. But some people who are rude or have no common sense will put their hand to his nose as I walk past. I'm not interacting thus far, just watching people from a distance. Sometimes I feel like he's never gonna like people, and that's fine but id rather he be aloof than acting aggressively. It worries me sick. 

You say I shouldn't tell him off because he doesnt understand what's expected of him, to train him to make the "right" choices. But how do I do this? Ive been rewarding him for good behaviour and telling him off for bad/ distracting him before bad behaviour can occur. I guess I'm. Just needing some guidance

Thanks for all your advice


----------



## xWolf

DutchKarin said:


> Why is it taking so long to see a trainer? Where do you live? Maybe someone will have a few suggestions near by. I think you should also be thinking about working with a trainer weekly. Someone needs to have eyes on this and really be able to evaluate the dog and you as a handler. However, it does sound like fear btw.




A live in the UK, in a small city called Preston. I don't drive however ive looked at major surrounding cities such a Manchester. After numerous attempts to find a trainer that specialises in Gsds, with no such luck, I found one in my area. Ive yet to find a trainer who does weekly visits, if anyone has any suggestions feel


----------



## DutchKarin

Could you contact pet stores, dog food stores and even veterinarians to ask for some trainer suggestions? You don't need GSD specific but the ideal is someone who has experience with some of the protection breeds. Good luck to you. Chip will give you many resources. I'm more of the type who suggests finding a good trainer.


----------



## Chip18

DutchKarin said:


> Could you contact pet stores, dog food stores and even veterinarians to ask for some trainer suggestions? You don't need GSD specific but the ideal is someone who has experience with some of the protection breeds. Good luck to you. Chip will give you many resources. I'm more of the type who suggests finding a good trainer.


LOL well and there you go! Cause I'm more of the type that "figures" well if I can figure it out (Human Aggression) so can others! 

Because ... I'm not that special, I say ...if I can do it "anyone can!" KISS is my "core principle" and as "my guy" often says:

Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

on his weekly ... well ... daily radio shows if one has the "Periscope App" ...* "lady your dogs not that special!" 
*

I say ... "KISS!"


----------



## xWolf

DutchKarin said:


> Could you contact pet stores, dog food stores and even veterinarians to ask for some trainer suggestions? You don't need GSD specific but the ideal is someone who has experience with some of the protection breeds. Good luck to you. Chip will give you many resources. I'm more of the type who suggests finding a good trainer.


Ive asked all those places and with no luck  I live in quite a small town and for the most part time trainers I can find are all just "generic" puppy trainers I.e not specific in any such type of breed. The guy I found has experience with gsd, but he doesn't do weekly visits, and wont do a home visit because it would mean he had to drive an hour each way so he would charge an obscene amount of money.i can get transport to him but he only does one 1hour assessment for £100 and £40 follow ups if needed.

Vader has been attending basic puppy obedience course which ends next week, but for the most part it hasn't really helped. Training wise its just been basic commands which he already knows,as for socialisation its again not breed specific, I think its been.too much for him, so hes snapped at some of the other dogs and the owners are all very wary of him.

Thanks for your advice


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> *he's very aggressive when he's out on leash, *with both strangers and dogs. he's worse with kids because he hasn't been brought up around kids, because we don't have any in the family.


Have you researched leash aggression / reactivity?



xWolf said:


> Training wise its just been basic commands which he already knows,as for socialisation its again not breed specific, I think its been.too much for him, so hes snapped at some of the other dogs and the owners are all very wary of him.
> 
> Thanks for your advice


What kind of exercise does this puppy get?


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> A live in the UK, in a small city called Preston. I don't drive however ive looked at major surrounding cities such a Manchester. After numerous attempts to find a trainer that specialises in Gsds, with no such luck, I found one in my area. Ive yet to find a trainer who does weekly visits, if anyone has any suggestions feel


 You see here's the thing ... you "assume" that because someone has "labeled themselves" as a "Dog Trainer" that they know more than you! 

I am "JQP" but I am, I guest a bit of a "arrogant butt hole??" But when my first, OS Wl GSD presented me with ... uh ... pretty "crystal clear" people issue ... 

I realized that I had to get this "right" out the gate! A "low growl and a cold hard stare" was how he "greeted" company in the home!" None of that barking and lunging "crap!" He meant business! Tricking people ... into his "space" with treats?? Struck me as not a very wise choice???

"I" never went there ... "I" chose, ... show him I "expect him to behave." I'm not big on fan "Redirecting" my dog, into not being a "butt hole!" ... I prefer that my dogs "learn to freaking "deal with it" worked out fine. 

Anyone that "chooses to" can do what I do ... cause "I'm not that special"


----------



## voodoolamb

It does sound like insecurity to me. Did it come on suddenly or has the pup always been like this? Just wondering if it could be fear period related. 

I second getting a trainer. You need an experienced person who can evaluate the dog in person. Popular techniques for dominant aggression can exasperated fear based aggression and make the situation worse. 

I've personally found with fearful dogs that giving them choices is counter productive. It creates anxiety and leads to more out lashes. Insecure dogs thrive on structure and being told exactly what to do. Also being set up to succeed frequently in order to gain confidence. 

Some of the things I've done with fear reactive pups in the past: 

Create a really solid focused heel. This allows you to navigate the real world. It gives the dog a complex task that requires 100% focus on his handler. It's hard for the dog to be afraid and to bark and lunge at people while walking through a crowd when he has his eyes locked with yours and is concentrating on keeping position.

Work on targeting. Teach "touch" to a hand held up like giving high five. If you need/want to introduce your dog to someone new have them put out there hand and direct your dog to the target. The dog ends up approaching the scarey stranger with a focused objective. Targeting can also lead to a fun game (holding you hand up high and moving it so the dog has to spin and jump to hit it) that is good for getting jitters out and associating a scarey situation with a fun one.

Those two things combined with exposure and threshold training really turned some of my fosters and personal dogs around.

Aggression is one of those problems imho that need to be dealt with in person by a qualified professional if you have had no experience with it yourself. It's very possible to make the problem worse by trying to fix it unless you know exactly what you are doing.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> Ive asked all those places and with no luck  I live in quite a small town and for the most part time trainers I can find are all just "generic" puppy trainers I.e not specific in any such type of breed. The guy I found has experience with gsd, but he doesn't do weekly visits, and wont do a home visit because it would mean he had to drive an hour each way so he would charge an obscene amount of money.i can get transport to him but he only does one 1hour assessment for £100 and £40 follow ups if needed.
> 
> Vader has been attending basic puppy obedience course which ends next week, but for the most part it hasn't really helped. Training wise its just been basic commands which he already knows,as for socialisation its again not breed specific, I think its been.too much for him, so hes snapped at some of the other dogs and the owners are all very wary of him.
> 
> Thanks for your advice


 LOL ... "Breed" specific ... yes go down that "rathole" if you chose! 

If your going the "find a trainer" ... route what you need is a "Balance Trainer" a trainer that teaches a "dog" to ... "make good choices" and delivers "consequences" for "poor choices!" 

A competent capable trainer "won't care" what "Breed" your dog is! At least I don't ... if it's got four feet and fur and fur??? I can deal and I'm not that special. 

But ... for the *"real world" *... ask them if they "believe/train, the "Four Quadrants of Operant Conditioning??"

If they have "no idea" what you are talking about ... they can't help you! I'm not a "Pro" myself but I don't care what "Breed" I happen to have at hand. But hey I guess ... that's just me??


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Don't let anybody fool you into thinking breed doesn't matter when it comes to socialization. Many people get certain breeds hoping for certain traits, like somebody looking for a home protector may choose a German Shepherd. It is quite common for a German Shepherd to be aloof with strangers sometimes starting at a very early age and forcing people on them can be very stressful and full of conflict. 

One member on this forum almost euthanized her dog, not realizing this, because her dog did not want handled by strangers. This was the first German Shepherd this member ever had although she had other breeds which were far more social and she expected the same from the German Shepherd. She thought something was wrong with her German Shepherd because she was not the social butterfuly the owner was accustomed to with her other more social breeds.

Balanced trainers know that breed can make a difference and they use this knowledge to their advantage. Breed matters.


----------



## voodoolamb

I 100% agree with MAWL that breed/type matters. Dogs have such a slippery genome and high genetic mutation rate we truly do have a wide variety of animals that express their base drives in many different ways. If you aren't familiar with your breed then you are setting yourself up to fail.

I'm mentioning this as this Ellis video mentioned it and I have experience with the breed, not trying to start another fighting breeds thread hijack, but it makes for a very poignant example of why breed matters: I have owned game bred (fighting line) pit bulls. Aggressive ones at that (dog aggressive - i refuse to work with pits that show any human aggression, nor do I think anyone should). The thing with pits is that a lot of their signals of aggression have been bred out of them. Most breeds give plenty of warning that they are about to bite.They do the stare. They growl. They raise hackles. They bark. They snap. Pits dont. It makes them better fighters not to do the threat displays. If you treat a pit like a lab, there will be blood. 

The other reason breed matters so much is because it gives you a really good idea of what type of drives your dog is going to have. Just as important as training is giving dogs outlets for their natural drives. I firmly believe that if you dont give those outlets you won't have a sane dog. Terriers need to get out and dig and hunt, so you can bury their favorite toys in sand. Border collies need to herd, so you can give them a ball too large to carry that they can chase around, bloodhounds need to track, so you can buy hunting scents and put them around your yard, etc. Appease the the dog's mind and their natural inclinations that way, give them ample exercise to appease their bodies, and then train - other wise you are battling atleast a few centuries worth of genetics.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> I 100% agree with MAWL that breed/type matters. Dogs have such a slippery genome and high genetic mutation rate we truly do have a wide variety of animals that express their base drives in many different ways. If you aren't familiar with your breed then you are setting yourself up to fail.
> 
> I'm mentioning this as this Ellis video mentioned it and I have experience with the breed, not trying to start another fighting breeds thread hijack, but it makes for a very poignant example of why breed matters: I have owned game bred (fighting line) pit bulls. Aggressive ones at that (dog aggressive - i refuse to work with pits that show any human aggression, nor do I think anyone should). The thing with pits is that a lot of their signals of aggression have been bred out of them. Most breeds give plenty of warning that they are about to bite.They do the stare. They growl. They raise hackles. They bark. They snap. Pits dont. It makes them better fighters not to do the threat displays. If you treat a pit like a lab, there will be blood.
> 
> The other reason breed matters so much is because it gives you a really good idea of what type of drives your dog is going to have. Just as important as training is giving dogs outlets for their natural drives. I firmly believe that if you dont give those outlets you won't have a sane dog. Terriers need to get out and dig and hunt, so you can bury their favorite toys in sand. Border collies need to herd, so you can give them a ball too large to carry that they can chase around, bloodhounds need to track, so you can buy hunting scents and put them around your yard, etc. Appease the the dog's mind and their natural inclinations that way, give them ample exercise to appease their bodies, and then train - other wise you are battling atleast a few centuries worth of genetics.


Pearls of wisdom.

People need to realize the dangers they place other people and pets in when they don't address these specifics. Owners of problem dogs also stand to be sued and the problem dog PTS. None of those aren't good options.


----------



## voodoolamb

Oh! Also the breed of your dog is also going to give you a good idea of not only what to expect behavior wise, but will give you a good idea of realistic training goals.

I'd never expect my grey hound to be reliable off leash.
I'd never expect my pit not to be dog aggressive. 
I'd never expect my sister's bulldog to climb an A frame and fetch a dumbbell

It would cause so much frustration for both dogs and humans to do so. 

Luckily for us, we are shepherd people. The sky is our limit!


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> Thank you so much for your response
> I'm currently teaching place command, I say "go to your den Vader" and if he goes been rewarding him. I guess you're right about the treats though, I've been using food to distract from negative behaviour because he's so food orientated. Which in its way is bribing.


 First ... "go to your den" yes ... that's great if you are at home ...not of much value, when you are out and about??? 

The "Command" is "Place" you can use a towel or a throw rug (something you routinely train with) and take it with you and take that with you ... put it down and say "Place." Once the dog fully understands the command ... that won't be necessary ... you can point and say "Place." People seem to luv to "reinvent" the wheel for some reason?? "Place" once properly trained is a "universal" go to your den" not so much. 



xWolf said:


> I tried the "sit on the dog" a while back but I think he was too young. Being a puppy, he is very skittish, hyper and anxious. He sleeps well in his crate, but through the day even if he's left on his own for a few minutes he cries. So when I tried "sit on
> the dog" with him tied on a leash, he was crying and barking and going crazy. Guess I need to persist though.


 Yes "Persist!" It's not your call dog ... "deal with it!" 




xWolf said:


> I don't let people pet him, before he got this bad I would let people put their hand with a treat to show him people = good. I'm training him to a muzzle so that ni accidents can happen whilst hes as you say "unpredictable". We haven't used it out yet. But some people who are rude or have no common sense will put their hand to his nose as I walk past. I'm not interacting thus far, just watching people from a distance. Sometimes I feel like he's never gonna like people, and that's fine but id rather he be aloof than acting aggressively. It worries me sick.


 A Muzzle??? No big deal ... we label them "Bubbledogs" on here. 

I had one, the aforementioned "Rocky!" The "issue" here is not your dog, it's you ... you expect people to behave?? I did not, my guy was a "clear and pleasant danger!" My "job" was to not give people an "opportunity" to try there luck?? No one got past me! No treats no brides, your job "dog" is to stand there quietly, my job is to keep people out of your face ... I am very good at my job! As I am want to say ...














xWolf said:


> You say I shouldn't tell him off because he doesn't understand what's expected of him, to train him to make the "right" choices. But how do I do this? I've been rewarding him for good behaviour and telling him off for bad/ distracting him before bad behaviour can occur. I guess I'm. Just needing some guidance
> 
> Thanks for all your advice


 Most likely ... your using to many "words??" I don't "negotiate" with dogs I "show them" how "I" expect them to behave. If you have a dog that is a "bite risk" you have "zero" margin for error! 

Unlike others ... I am not a "Pro" and when I wound up with a dog with "serious freaking" someone is gonna hurt issues ... I figured well no one is better suited to fix my dog's issue than me! 

What I did ...anyone that is "flexible" in there thinking can do. 

Real World "JQP" dog owner example ... this is "What my Dog Did" and how I did it. :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html


----------



## DutchKarin

Chip18 said:


> LOL well and there you go! Cause I'm more of the type that "figures" well if I can figure it out (Human Aggression) so can others!
> 
> Because ... I'm not that special, I say ...if I can do it "anyone can!" KISS is my "core principle" and as "my guy" often says:
> 
> Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training
> 
> on his weekly ... well ... daily radio shows if one has the "Periscope App" ...* "lady your dogs not that special!"
> *
> 
> I say ... "KISS!"


Hope you didn't take that wrong Chip... I meant that in a good way. You will give a lot of resources and people should thank you for that way more than they do. I meant it in a good way.


----------



## LuvShepherds

My puppy was doing that, too, and we quit the puppy class and went to a private trainer. Does your trainer understand that kind of behavior? We had to put the dog into a prong collar because he was ignoring us. Treats don't work for this type behavior and can make it worse by accidentally rewarding bad behavior.

You need to watch your dog and act before he reacts. The second you see him tensing up, or preparing to bark, turn around and walk away. Don't ever give him the opportunity to react. Dont be anxious either or it will make him worse. This isn't the end of the world, it's a bump in his training and he is confused. It's your job to make it very clear to him that he can't bark or react like he is.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't let anybody fool you into thinking breed doesn't matter when it comes to socialization. Many people get certain breeds hoping for certain traits, like somebody looking for a home protector may choose a German Shepherd. It is quite common for a German Shepherd to be aloof with strangers sometimes starting at a very early age and forcing people on them can be very stressful and full of conflict.
> 
> One member on this forum almost euthanized her dog, not realizing this, because her dog did not want handled by strangers. This was the first German Shepherd this member ever had although she had other breeds which were far more social and she expected the same from the German Shepherd. She thought something was wrong with her German Shepherd because she was not the social butterfuly the owner was accustomed to with her other more social breeds.
> 
> Balanced trainers know that breed can make a difference and they use this knowledge to their advantage. Breed matters.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r7EOFRkDp4


Aww ...yes "everyones" favorite* "one trick pony!"* Apparently the "fact that the OP" said " *I can't find a Breed Specific Trainer" here* ...means "Nothing???" And yes ... I post "specific" lectures from Michael Ellis myself because the guy makes a lot of sense. 

Still ... "I" find him pretty much "Useless" for JQP "Struggling" with there dogs "issues" as a source of information?? And ... by the way already heard from a member about him online, if anyone other than myself took notice?? If one already understands "how to train a dog" yes a valuable resource if they don't ... "good luck with that!" 

Most likely, if they "pay" for his online course or attend or send there "problem dog'"to him ... it work out fine. 

Aw well ... I still feel the sing from the latest mod admonishment about "One Upmanship?? So I'll just have to let it go at "this" ... I just post what work worked for me and cite sources "people" are free to do as they see fit.

Nuff said.


----------



## Chip18

DutchKarin said:


> Hope you didn't take that wrong Chip... I meant that in a good way. You will give a lot of resources and people should thank you for that way more than they do. I meant it in a good way.


LOL ...no problem! Completely understood! 

I spent a lot of time "rampaging" on a couple different "BoxerForums" 
*BoxerWorld* is infested with "fools" by the way!

But on "BoxerForum" ... "they" started working on me! Kinda like well if "we" can get this "Bad Dog" in the Dog Park to ... "dial it down" ...maybe there is some "value" here. 

At some point with "a lot of introspection" I realized that "pounding my POV" into people is not really productive ... and a few others on here helped out. Selzer comes to mind first because she said something about me "pounding the crap out of newbies" to figure out who to help ... is not perhaps the way to go??

So yeah "near as I can tell??" I don't do that anymore. But yes ... as I said ... "No Problem." I understood your postion ... no problem.

I still roll "Homie Style" but I think I've put a "Cap" on the "Boxer Crazy" as it were?? So yeah we're good.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Aww ...yes "everyones" favorite* "one trick pony!"* Apparently the "fact that the OP" said " *I can't find a Breed Specific Trainer" here* ...means "Nothing???" And yes ... I post "specific" lectures from Michael Ellis myself because the guy makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Sooo... then it was suggested that the OP look for a trainer that is experienced with aggression. Perhaps you should address the poster who made that comment and they can clarify it for you.
> 
> Still ... "I" find him pretty much "Useless" for JQP "Struggling" with there dogs "issues" as a source of information?? And ... by the way already heard from a member about him online, if anyone other than myself took notice?? If one already understands "how to train a dog" yes a valuable resource if they don't ... "good luck with that!"
> 
> If the OP does not know how to train a dog, then a video explaining that breed can matter and how that impacts an OP in his endeavors, is supposed to be a matter of luck? I think you misunderstood what the other poster you referenced was trying to convey. What happened to knowledge is power?
> 
> Most likely, if they "pay" for his online course or attend or send there "problem dog'"to him ... it work out fine.
> 
> Teaching somebody about dog behavior does not equate to teaching somebody how to train a dog, although it can be a good starting point, just like breed generalizations. Tools are tools. That is like saying that nobody should advise an OP as to various types of training collars because that kind of information does not teach them how to teach a dog.
> 
> Aw well ... I still feel the sing from the latest mod admonishment about "One Upmanship?? So I'll just have to let it go at "this" ... I just post what work worked for me and cite sources "people" are free to do as they see fit.
> 
> Nuff said.


I am not interested in one upmanship. Everybody on this board is entitled to give advice. There is no monopoly on it and OP has been given very good advice by many and should look at all the options.

I find it odd that although others agree with my comments, or made comments that I agree with, that you only find mine as noteworthy.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not interested in one upmanship. Everybody on this board is entitled to give advice. There is no monopoly on it and OP has been given very good advice by many and should look at all the options.
> 
> I find it odd that although others agree with my comments, or made comments that I agree with, that you only find mine as noteworthy.


 Well ... from the "OP" :


"i'm just trying to figure out whether his behaviour is due to fear or dominance, or maybe a bit of both. i am seeing a one on one trainer next month, *however there aren't any breed specific in my area* so it will be a one time visit and then follow ups as required, " words from the "OP" not me. So I guess they are just crap out of luck??? 

And the ME "Breed Matters" thing ... yes ... you got me! I was waiting for an opportunity to "unload on that one!" Sorry ... you gave me an "opening" and I took it! 

I would luv to go on ...but "pattern" of "behaviour" first it was "bickering" and now it's "one upmanship??" 

I find that last one particularly "irksome myself!" So ... I find myself thus unable to respond to the points you raised in detail without falling afoul of that one??? 


Personally I find it "stifles debate?? Most likely ... I'll get over it in a "few months???" But ... for right now ... my butt still hurts! "Make better choices" apparently it works with "people" also ... or maybe it's just me???










So sad.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well ... from the "OP" :
> 
> 
> "i'm just trying to figure out whether his behaviour is due to fear or dominance, or maybe a bit of both. i am seeing a one on one trainer next month, *however there aren't any breed specific in my area* so it will be a one time visit and then follow ups as required, " words from the "OP" not me. So I guess they are just crap out of luck???
> 
> And the ME "Breed Matters" thing ... yes ... you got me! I was waiting for an opportunity to "unload on that one!" Sorry ... you gave me an "opening" and I took it!
> 
> I would luv to go on ...but "pattern" of "behaviour" first it was "bickering" and now it's "one upmanship??"
> 
> I find that last one particularly "irksome myself!" So ... I find myself thus unable to respond to the points you raised in detail without falling afoul of that one???
> 
> 
> Personally I find it "stifles debate?? Most likely ... I'll get over it in a "few months???" But ... for right now ... my butt still hurts! "Make better choices" apparently it works with "people" also ... or maybe it's just me???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So sad.


As I stated earlier, I was not the one on who recommended a trainer. You were shooting the wrong messenger.

And yes, you set up and jumped on the chance to unload on breed matters.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As I stated earlier, I was not the one on who recommended a trainer. You were shooting the wrong messenger.
> 
> And yes, you set up and jumped on the chance to unload on breed matters.


Hmm OK ... since you posted "Breed Matters" I assumed "you were in effect telling them to "try harder??" I stand corrected! Not really sure of the why then but people do stuff?? 

At anyrate ... 








Sorry my bad ... 


but the rest ...yeah I'm good with that. But to be clear ME works best for people that already understand how to train a dog, in my opinion ... I trust ..."this" is not "perceived" as "bickering??"


----------



## Stonevintage

Everyone should stand behind their own comments here. When you don't just speak for yourself, you will eventually push yourself into a corner and then you will have to speak for yourself. No "like" button to bail you.

Everyone does have a right to voice their opinion here. Those who are not professional trainers or behaviorists should bear in mind that fact. Everything else here is just opinion - some wide range of experience - certainly, but that does not seem proportional on the amount of advise given. I wonder how that all looks to someone new here.....


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmm OK ... since you posted "Breed Matters" I assumed "you were in effect telling them to "try harder??" I stand corrected! Not really sure of the why then but people do stuff??
> 
> At anyrate ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry my bad ...
> 
> 
> but the rest ...yeah I'm good with that. But to be clear ME works best for people that already understand how to train a dog, in my opinion ... I trust ..."this" is not "perceived" as "bickering??"


Somehow the word "rat hole" comes to mind.  :surprise: That might have been a trigger.

ME puts out a lot of good background theory. It is not for everybody, but it should not be withheld based on that premise alone. Sometimes, inquiring minds want to know.:nerd:


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Everyone should stand behind their own comments here. When you don't just speak for yourself, you will eventually push yourself into a corner and then you will have to speak for yourself. No "like" button to bail you.
> 
> Everyone does have a right to voice their opinion here. Those who are not professional trainers or behaviorists should bear in mind that fact. Everything else here is just opinion - some wide range of experience - certainly, but that does not seem proportional on the amount of advise given. I wonder how that all looks to someone new here.....


Uh oh ...not really sure if this a "Statement" or a "Question???" If it's a question I can answer as I have heard from JQP and what they've said to me is ... "Thank You for being different." :grin2:


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Somehow the word "rat hole" comes to mind.  :surprise: That might have been a trigger.
> 
> ME puts out a lot of good background theory. It is not for everybody, but it should not be withheld based on that premise alone. Sometimes, inquiring minds want to know.:nerd:


Hmm "Rat Hole??" I don't remember but ...yesss that sounds like me! :laugh2:

You get no argument from me that ME has a lot of "Excellent Information" I post some of his lectures, I just feel that JQP that is "struggling with a "Pet Dog" with "serious freaking issues" as I am want to say can gain very little from him to help them with there issues ... he's to "esoteric" in my view??

Hands on perhaps but nothing "I've" seen for free??? I use my "filter/experiance" to help others ... if I can understand a "Trainer" ... then so can JQP ... KISS.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmm "Rat Hole??" I don't remember but ...yesss that sounds like me! :laugh2:
> 
> You get no argument from me that ME has a lot of "Excellent Information" I post some of his lectures, I just feel that JQP that is "struggling with a "Pet Dog" with "serious freaking issues" as I am want to say can gain very little from him to help them with there issues ... he's to "esoteric" in my view??
> 
> Hands on perhaps but nothing "I've" seen for free??? I use my "filter/experiance" to help others ... if I can understand a "Trainer" ... then so can JQP ... KISS.


I know you like Gellman. I found this video by Gellman the other night. This is the type of stuff that bothers me. 

1) Fast forward to 5:15. Note Gellman's workingline GSD "Girl" in the background. 

2) There is no way that Gellman does not have his GSD in either a place, a down stay, or another command as he certainly does not have her tied up on a road with traffic.

3) Now watch 6:30 - 6:45. Girl, Gellman's GSD, actually broke her command to come over and play sheriff. 


THAT is my problem. If Gellman's own dog breaks a command, how much success do you think JQP is going to have training a DIY down/stay or place when the majority of time they created the problems to begin with? What about the times when it is the dog itself? I am concerned about these GSDs *with aggression *that are being put in a position where other people and animals may come to harm, not to mention the liability to the dog owner and possible death of the dog.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know you like Gellman. I found this video by Gellman the other night. This is the type of stuff that bothers me.
> 
> 1) Fast forward to 5:15. Note Gellman's workingline GSD "Girl" in the background.
> 
> 2) There is no way that Gellman does not have his GSD in either a place, a down stay, or another command as he certainly does not have her tied up on a road with traffic.
> 
> 3) Now watch 6:30 - 6:45. Girl, Gellman's GSD, actually broke her command to come over and play sheriff.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV40...cxQdF&index=17
> 
> THAT is my problem. If Gellman's own dog breaks a command, how much success do you think JQP is going to have training a DIY down/stay or place when the majority of time they created the problems to begin with? What about the times when it is the dog itself? I am concerned about these GSDs with aggression that are being put in a position where other people and animals may come to harm, not to mention the liability to the dog owner and possible death of the dog.


 And ... after my clearly demonstrated effort to "Stand Down" ... "this" is the thanks I get??

At any rate the clip won't play for me?? So I'll take you at your word. It's really hard to muster a defense as it were for something I have not see??? But no matter you found that because he post his work??

So you found a clip where girl broke "Place" to service as a "Sheriff" well first that is her job. And I've seen hours of clips where "they" do not break "Place."

But that aside "I" stumbled onto "Place" long before I knew who Jeff Gellman or Baillif was and for me ... it worked out fine. And I'm not that special. 

So you don't care for Jeff and I find ME "confusing" and useless for JQP. OK point out a trainer who's methods "everyone" agrees with??

I heard Jeff say you can't correct a dog with a SLL?? I of course tend to disagree myself but ... whatever.

But "Place" with "Aggressive Dogs" and "Company" at home ...not my concept.






But you know unlike mine, that is not a GSD, so yeah I guess "Place" can't work with "Aggressive" GSD's, guess I'll have to tell Rocky ... Daddy was wrong??


----------



## voodoolamb

One thing I would like to point out is that you don't need to have a breed specific trainer as much as you need one familiar with your breed. 

Don't ask if a trainer specialized in gsds, i think very few trainers actually ONLY deal with 1 breed. I dont know any good gsd guys who couldnt work wonders with a malinois for example. Ask what breeds they work with the most, what breeds they personally own, etc. 

Note to OP: please keep in mind that aggression, especially human aggression like you have described, is a very serious problem that could leave your dog dead and you in financial ruin. It's not something that you want to leave solely up to the advice of strangers on the internet who may have only dealt with one or two of their own personal dogs and have never seen your dog in the flesh. There are many nuances to dog behavior and it is very difficult to properly "diagnosis" problem behaviors without seeing your dog in person. From you example I see an insecure dog. Other posters see a dog that is just being a butt. There are just as many nuances in handling such a dog as the dog has itself. Many of which are difficult to convey through text alone. Timing, amount of pressure and the ability to read your dog is absolutely critical


Please for the sake of your pup seek a qualified professional in your area. Perhaps contact your nations german shepherd kennel club. They may be able to direct you to resources in your area. I'd look into any training clubs that specialise in bite sports. They know gsd aggression.


----------



## voodoolamb

Oh one more thing I would like to add. I am one of the "lucky" few that has actually had a dog bite someone. 

It. Was. A. Nightmare. 

First I want to say it was actually a provoked attack, where legally the dog had a "right" to defend himself and me. Even so I had to have my dog quarantined. Animal control opened an investigation which included them interviewing my neighbor's and vet. Even though the bite took place while a crime was being committed - ac still could have ruled my dog vicious due to the severity of the bite, which meant I would have had to pick up a 6 figure liability insurance, and my dog would ALWAYS have to be muzzled and leashed in public. I ended up hiring an attorney for peace of mind and assistance in dealing with the whole fiasco. 

Oh. Annnd. I am still going to be within the statue of limitations for a civil suit for a few more years. So even though my dog is "safe" the $#@!^ who assaulted me can sue me at any time. The judge can always decide that excessive force was used via my dog and I'm up the creek without a paddle having to pay that guy. 

And this is for a provoked bite. I cannot even begin to imagine the stress of a dog that bites an innocent victim.


----------



## Dotbat215

voodoolamb said:


> One thing I would like to point out is that you don't need to have a breed specific trainer as much as you need one familiar with your breed.
> 
> Don't ask if a trainer specialized in gsds, i think very few trainers actually ONLY deal with 1 breed. I dont know any good gsd guys who couldnt work wonders with a malinois for example. Ask what breeds they work with the most, what breeds they personally own, etc.
> 
> Note to OP: please keep in mind that aggression, especially human aggression like you have described, is a very serious problem that could leave your dog dead and you in financial ruin. It's not something that you want to leave solely up to the advice of strangers on the internet who may have only dealt with one or two of their own personal dogs and have never seen your dog in the flesh. There are many nuances to dog behavior and it is very difficult to properly "diagnosis" problem behaviors without seeing your dog in person. From you example I see an insecure dog. Other posters see a dog that is just being a butt. There are just as many nuances in handling such a dog as the dog has itself. Many of which are difficult to convey through text alone. Timing, amount of pressure and the ability to read your dog is absolutely critical
> 
> 
> Please for the sake of your pup seek a qualified professional in your area. Perhaps contact your nations german shepherd kennel club. They may be able to direct you to resources in your area. I'd look into any training clubs that specialise in bite sports. They know gsd aggression.



This. When I think of breed specific training, I don't think of someone who only trains pugs or gsds or what have you but someone who has a decent amount of experience with your breed. I think breed does matter. Yes, some things are universal but the reason we have different breeds is because we needed different things from them both physically and mentally. 

My parents have a jack Russell terrier. I would not suggest a trainer who has never worked with one. They, IME, require a level of patience and consistency that some other breeds don't. My gs mix picks up on new things right away, is eager to please, wants to work as a team, and is forgiving if we are not on our A game. 

Similar to Voodoo lamb...my dog bit another dog. And it was the freaking worst. Basically a friend with two chiweenies came to get something from my house. He knew Chandler was himself attacked by a dog and now had aggression issues. We told him don't bring your dogs. Many times. He brought them in the car with him, they were not secured in the car, he left the car door open, he opened MY door, Chandler got out and grabbed his dog (who left the vehicle) and put a bunch of puncture wounds in its neck. It was one of the worst nights of my life.

Getting a trainer was the best thing. I should have done it earlier. Having an objective 3rd party to train both you and your dog is incredibly helpful. I can't watch and crtique myself as I train but with a trainer I get great feedback in real time. 

If you think he could legit bite a person or animal then talk to someone. I think going it alone is stressful, personally, and stress makes the situation harder.

Plus, it can be a lot of fun for you and the dog. My pup loves his trainers. Loves learning new things and it really has deepened our bond. ?


----------



## voodoolamb

> My parents have a jack Russell terrier. I would not suggest a trainer who has never worked with one. They, IME, require a level of patience and consistency that some other breeds don't. My gs mix picks up on new things right away, is eager to please, wants to work as a team, and is forgiving if we are not on our A game.


Many more years ago then I care to admit, I found myself shoveling poop in a kennel in exchange for free training lessons. It was awesome as I was able to sit in on many other lessons as well. 

One day the boss man informed me he needed the place to look extra spiffy as we had a special guest coming another trainer who was having issues with their dogs! 

Not just any trainer either. He was kinda a big shot in the area. People came from all over to have him train their gun dogs. He had field titles out the whazoo on his labs. His entire livelihood was built on his dog training skills. 

Well, his wife wanted to have personal dogs of her own. And they brought home 2 jack Russel litter mates. Which predictably became holy out of control terrors. For a while there I'm pretty sure my boss even wanted to throw in the towel. I swear those dogs were laughing so hard seeing these two big tough guys turning blue in the face. The little stinkers knew exactly what they were doing.  

Eventually they worked out a plan and got control of the pups. Well as much control as you can have with those spunky little guys.


----------



## Dotbat215

voodoolamb said:


> Eventually they worked out a plan and got control of the pups. Well as much control as you can have with those spunky little guys.


Yea, Jacks are... Special. They were the only breed I had as a child. And they are terribly suited for me family. So when I got my German Shepherd mix last year, I learned a lot. I never experienced a dog with an off switch or an eagerness to please. Chandler is aloof but i can tell he gives a flying a fudge what i want. I think my parent' current Jack would burn the house down while flipping us off.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have you researched leash aggression / reactivity?
> 
> Yes, ive done a little research, and from what i can gather is he's leash reactive with other dogs. off-lead he's happy to play with other dogs, although sometimes at the owner's displeasure since he likes to play fairly rough.
> 
> What kind of exercise does this puppy get?


he gets 2 half an hour walks a day, (someone advised me to go by the '5 minute per month of age' rule) i want to start running with him but someone advised me to wait until he's one year old to prevent hip problems. he also gets the usual run around at the park, about 2 30 minute sessions, fetch, tug of war etc throughout the day in short bursts. my boyfriend roughhouses with him probably once a day and we also train him mentally, sniffer games like 'find it' etc, i'm slowly starting tracking games. we also use NILIF so he has to work for everything.


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> It does sound like insecurity to me. Did it come on suddenly or has the pup always been like this? Just wondering if it could be fear period related.
> 
> I second getting a trainer. You need an experienced person who can evaluate the dog in person. Popular techniques for dominant aggression can exasperated fear based aggression and make the situation worse.
> 
> I've personally found with fearful dogs that giving them choices is counter productive. It creates anxiety and leads to more out lashes. Insecure dogs thrive on structure and being told exactly what to do. Also being set up to succeed frequently in order to gain confidence.
> 
> Some of the things I've done with fear reactive pups in the past:
> 
> Create a really solid focused heel. This allows you to navigate the real world. It gives the dog a complex task that requires 100% focus on his handler. It's hard for the dog to be afraid and to bark and lunge at people while walking through a crowd when he has his eyes locked with yours and is concentrating on keeping position.
> 
> Work on targeting. Teach "touch" to a hand held up like giving high five. If you need/want to introduce your dog to someone new have them put out there hand and direct your dog to the target. The dog ends up approaching the scarey stranger with a focused objective. Targeting can also lead to a fun game (holding you hand up high and moving it so the dog has to spin and jump to hit it) that is good for getting jitters out and associating a scarey situation with a fun one.
> 
> Those two things combined with exposure and threshold training really turned some of my fosters and personal dogs around.
> 
> Aggression is one of those problems imho that need to be dealt with in person by a qualified professional if you have had no experience with it yourself. It's very possible to make the problem worse by trying to fix it unless you know exactly what you are doing.


i've been working on heel daily because i too feel it's one of the best things to do to help the situation along. however, i'm finding it very hard. i'm wondering if you can point me to any videos to help because the one's ive been using aren't working.

as for "touch", me and SO taught him 'high five' in the house and he loves it, as well as ''footy'' to shake paw. I've never really bothered to ask other people to use it though so i don't know how he'd react. knowing vader he would put his head to the side and be all confused, i'm guessing it would help the situation. For instance, when he wouldn't stop growling and lunging at a friend she made him sit for a treat to give him a focus. Upon this, he relaxed a little. i'm still reluctant to properly introduce him to people though for fear of making it worse, for now i'm doing it at a distance and working on 'heel'.

Thanks


----------



## Nigel

xWolf said:


> *i've been working on heel daily because i too feel it's one of the best things to do to help the situation along. however, i'm finding it very hard.* i'm wondering if you can point me to any videos to help because the one's ive been using aren't working.
> 
> as for "touch", me and SO taught him 'high five' in the house and he loves it, as well as ''footy'' to shake paw. I've never really bothered to ask other people to use it though so i don't know how he'd react. knowing vader he would put his head to the side and be all confused, i'm guessing it would help the situation. For instance, when he wouldn't stop growling and lunging at a friend she made him sit for a treat to give him a focus. Upon this, he relaxed a little. i'm still reluctant to properly introduce him to people though for fear of making it worse, for now i'm doing it at a distance and working on 'heel'.
> 
> Thanks


This may have already been mentioned and I missed it. Have you worked specifically on "focus" or "watch me"? You can play short little games throughout the day to keep his eyes on you. Start out with a sterile environment then add places with more distractions. Build duration over time and, it will help with heel and most other tasks as well.


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> It does sound like insecurity to me. Did it come on suddenly or has the pup always been like this? Just wondering if it could be fear period related.
> 
> I second getting a trainer. You need an experienced person who can evaluate the dog in person. Popular techniques for dominant aggression can exasperated fear based aggression and make the situation worse.
> 
> I've personally found with fearful dogs that giving them choices is counter productive. It creates anxiety and leads to more out lashes. Insecure dogs thrive on structure and being told exactly what to do. Also being set up to succeed frequently in order to gain confidence.
> 
> Some of the things I've done with fear reactive pups in the past:
> 
> Create a really solid focused heel. This allows you to navigate the real world. It gives the dog a complex task that requires 100% focus on his handler. It's hard for the dog to be afraid and to bark and lunge at people while walking through a crowd when he has his eyes locked with yours and is concentrating on keeping position.
> 
> Work on targeting. Teach "touch" to a hand held up like giving high five. If you need/want to introduce your dog to someone new have them put out there hand and direct your dog to the target. The dog ends up approaching the scarey stranger with a focused objective. Targeting can also lead to a fun game (holding you hand up high and moving it so the dog has to spin and jump to hit it) that is good for getting jitters out and associating a scarey situation with a fun one.
> 
> Those two things combined with exposure and threshold training really turned some of my fosters and personal dogs around.
> 
> Aggression is one of those problems imho that need to be dealt with in person by a qualified professional if you have had no experience with it yourself. It's very possible to make the problem worse by trying to fix it unless you know exactly what you are doing.


Forgot to add, he used to be fine with people. at about 3 months at the vet he had a bad experience, he was scared ****less and the vet didn't slowly ease him into it. i also let the vet take him into the back room to get his nail trimmed because he wasn't letting the vet anywhere near his nails. The vet also cut one of the nails too short and it bled. I was furious. Obviously looking back this was my fault, i feel so so guilty cus i feel like this one bad experience where i let him down has caused him to see everyone as a threat. so i feel like it's very much to do with that. from now on me and SO cut his nails. On the other hand, he's always been very timid. as a little pup he was timid, but he seemed to very fond of people.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't let anybody fool you into thinking breed doesn't matter when it comes to socialization. Many people get certain breeds hoping for certain traits, like somebody looking for a home protector may choose a German Shepherd. It is quite common for a German Shepherd to be aloof with strangers sometimes starting at a very early age and forcing people on them can be very stressful and full of conflict.
> 
> One member on this forum almost euthanized her dog, not realizing this, because her dog did not want handled by strangers. This was the first German Shepherd this member ever had although she had other breeds which were far more social and she expected the same from the German Shepherd. She thought something was wrong with her German Shepherd because she was not the social butterfuly the owner was accustomed to with her other more social breeds.
> 
> Balanced trainers know that breed can make a difference and they use this knowledge to their advantage. Breed matters.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r7EOFRkDp4


could you possibly direct me to this user/ask her to send me a message if still active? I'm in a similar situation with Vader being the first GSD i have ever owned.


----------



## Dotbat215

xWolf said:


> could you possibly direct me to this user/ask her to send me a message if still active? I'm in a similar situation with Vader being the first GSD i have ever owned.


I Bernice believe it's this one...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/656889-heartbroken-scared-defeated.html

Unless mawl is thinking of another....


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> First ... "go to your den" yes ... that's great if you are at home ...not of much value, when you are out and about???
> 
> The "Command" is "Place" you can use a towel or a throw rug (something you routinely train with) and take it with you and take that with you ... put it down and say "Place." Once the dog fully understands the command ... that won't be necessary ... you can point and say "Place." People seem to luv to "reinvent" the wheel for some reason?? "Place" once properly trained is a "universal" go to your den" not so much.
> 
> Yes "Persist!" It's not your call dog ... "deal with it!"
> 
> 
> A Muzzle??? No big deal ... we label them "Bubbledogs" on here.
> 
> I had one, the aforementioned "Rocky!" The "issue" here is not your dog, it's you ... you expect people to behave?? I did not, my guy was a "clear and pleasant danger!" My "job" was to not give people an "opportunity" to try there luck?? No one got past me! No treats no brides, your job "dog" is to stand there quietly, my job is to keep people out of your face ... I am very good at my job! As I am want to say ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely ... your using to many "words??" I don't "negotiate" with dogs I "show them" how "I" expect them to behave. If you have a dog that is a "bite risk" you have "zero" margin for error!
> 
> Unlike others ... I am not a "Pro" and when I wound up with a dog with "serious freaking" someone is gonna hurt issues ... I figured well no one is better suited to fix my dog's issue than me!
> 
> What I did ...anyone that is "flexible" in there thinking can do.
> 
> Real World "JQP" dog owner example ... this is "What my Dog Did" and how I did it. :
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html


So today the worst happened. i'm so pissed at my boyfriend, a man asked if he could pet Vader as SO was waiting outside the store for me. I initially told SO do not let anyone pet him or make eye contact, i always step in front and tell them sternly "no", just as you said, so i'm between the person and the dog. It seems my SO didn't tell the man "no", simply advised him that Vader was wary of people. And he ended up biting the man's hand. obviously with him being 5 months old and his teeth haven't come through yet, it was just a nip and no blood drawn. Still, this shows that he will bite if anyone tries to touch him. Mostly, i'm pissed at my bf for not telling the man a strict "NO"


----------



## Muskeg

Hey, OP, sorry to hear about this incident. I recommend finding a trainer. I think Jamie Penrith might be nearby? At Take the Lead Dog Training. Look him up. If he can't help you, he'll direct you to someone who can.

A good trainer has really solid foundational knowledge and the skills and experience to back it up. 

OP- this isn't really directed at you but at other commenters on this thread. I think the difference between someone like Jeff Gellman and someone like Ivan B is that Ivan has a much deeper and better understanding of dog training science and at this point the innovation and experience to work with just about any dog. Where as I see Jeff G having a lot less creativity. He seems to do a rote routine with each dog. Which might work OK in most cases, but he's not going to have the high level results of someone like Ivan B.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> And ... after my clearly demonstrated effort to "Stand Down" ... "this" is the thanks I get??
> 
> At any rate the clip won't play for me?? So I'll take you at your word. It's really hard to muster a defense as it were for something I have not see??? But no matter you found that because he post his work??
> 
> So you found a clip where girl broke "Place" to service as a "Sheriff" well first that is her job. And I've seen hours of clips where "they" do not break "Place."
> 
> But that aside "I" stumbled onto "Place" long before I knew who Jeff Gellman or Baillif was and for me ... it worked out fine. And I'm not that special.
> 
> So you don't care for Jeff and I find ME "confusing" and useless for JQP. OK point out a trainer who's methods "everyone" agrees with??
> 
> I heard Jeff say you can't correct a dog with a SLL?? I of course tend to disagree myself but ... whatever.
> 
> But "Place" with "Aggressive Dogs" and "Company" at home ...not my concept.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHvpI3ICIM
> 
> But you know unlike mine, that is not a GSD, so yeah I guess "Place" can't work with "Aggressive" GSD's, guess I'll have to tell Rocky ... Daddy was wrong??


Chip, stop taking everything so personal. This isn't about you :smile2:, or an attack on Gellman. This is about aggressive dogs being given too much leeway to break training, regardless of what command is used, and putting others in danger as well as creating a liability to the owners and possibly endangering their dogs.

Life is not black and white, there are many shades of gray. It doesn't matter if you saw hours of clips where dogs don't break place, it only takes one dog doing it for a few seconds to create a living heck for all involved. I know I have linked to this before, but let me do it again. This is a dog that was "on the lawn" as you like to call it, and although the dog never left the yard, life happened.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/634642-my-boy-got-himself-trouble.html

When people like Gellman have their dog break training, or as was discussed on another forum yesterday, Leerburg not letting his dogs ever run free except for rare occasions and always with e collars, including his little lap dogs, what does that tell you about entrusting the safety of others to whether a dog with aggression problems in the hands of JQP will be trained to a degree above and beyond Gellman's and Leerburg's abilities?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Hey, OP, sorry to hear about this incident. I recommend finding a trainer. I think Jamie Penrith might be nearby? At Take the Lead Dog Training. Look him up. If he can't help you, he'll direct you to someone who can.
> 
> A good trainer has really solid foundational knowledge and the skills and experience to back it up.
> 
> OP- this isn't really directed at you but at other commenters on this thread. I think the difference between someone like Jeff Gellman and someone like Ivan B is that Ivan has a much deeper and better understanding of dog training science and at this point the innovation and experience to work with just about any dog. Where as I see Jeff G having a lot less creativity. He seems to do a rote routine with each dog. Which might work OK in most cases, but he's not going to have the high level results of someone like Ivan B.


Very, very nicely phrased.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> *he gets 2 half an hour walks a day*, (someone advised me to go by the '5 minute per month of age' rule) i want to start running with him but someone advised me to wait until he's one year old to prevent hip problems. *he also gets the usual run around at the park, about 2 30 minute sessions,* fetch, tug of war etc throughout the day in short bursts. my boyfriend roughhouses with him probably once a day and we also train him mentally, sniffer games like 'find it' etc, i'm slowly starting tracking games. we also use NILIF so he has to work for everything.


First bold, on leash? If so, although many will disagree with me, but on leash walking isn't exercise for a dog.

Second bold, to clarify, the gets 2- 30 minute runs at the park? How often? Or should I understand that to read that he does get run at the park on occasion? Once again, how often?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> could you possibly direct me to this user/ask her to send me a message if still active? I'm in a similar situation with Vader being the first GSD i have ever owned.


Sorry but that user is long gone although she did come back at one time to say that with the help of a behaviorist and understanding her dog was not a social butterfly, things were greatly improved and she was no longer interested in euthanizing or rehoming her dog.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> My puppy was doing that, too, and we quit the puppy class and went to a private trainer. Does your trainer understand that kind of behavior? We had to put the dog into a prong collar because he was ignoring us. Treats don't work for this type behavior and can make it worse by accidentally rewarding bad behavior.
> 
> You need to watch your dog and act before he reacts. The second you see him tensing up, or preparing to bark, turn around and walk away. Don't ever give him the opportunity to react. Dont be anxious either or it will make him worse. This isn't the end of the world, it's a bump in his training and he is confused. It's your job to make it very clear to him that he can't bark or react like he is.


I haven't met up with the trainer yet, just talked to him on the phone. I know he's worked with GSD before though. i've thought about prong collars, e-collars etc, just don't know how to use them. The trainer i've spoken to thinks Vader's behaviour is dominant rather than fear-based, though he can't be sure as he hasn't observed him yet. I'm not so sure, i do feel he's displaying fear and insecurities. But i'm no expert. I don't want to use ,prong collars for example, if the behaviour is fear-based, cus i'm sure that'd just make it worse??

My SO is better than me in that he's more confident. i try to be confident when out and about, but sometimes i can't help but get anxious and it must emit from me to puppy.i'm working on this though


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dotbat215 said:


> I Bernice believe it's this one...
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-ugly/656889-heartbroken-scared-defeated.html
> 
> Unless mawl is thinking of another....


This is the member and dog I was speaking about.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...lease-help-euth-appointment-4-45pm-today.html


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> I haven't met up with the trainer yet, just talked to him on the phone. I know he's worked with GSD before though. i've thought about prong collars, e-collars etc, just don't know how to use them. The trainer i've spoken to thinks Vader's behaviour is dominant rather than fear-based, though he can't be sure as he hasn't observed him yet. I'm not so sure, i do feel he's displaying fear and insecurities. But i'm no expert. I don't want to use ,prong collars for example, if the behaviour is fear-based, cus i'm sure that'd just make it worse??
> 
> My SO is better than me in that he's more confident. i try to be confident when out and about, but sometimes i can't help but get anxious and it must emit from me to puppy.i'm working on this though


A collar is just a tool and can work in any type of aggression. If used correctly the collar won't make a behavior worse. A prong collar is a tool you use to speak to your dog. Puppies that show aggression might be genetically aggressive or they might be confused and trying out behaviors to see what works and what doesn't. When you use the collar to let the dog know a behavior isn't acceptable, the dog will be more relaxed as he begins to learn what is OK. I find a trained dog is calmer because they aren't living with uncertainty.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

No tools like prongs can help you if you continue to brush against the grain. This purposeless wandering around which many call "a dog walk"- is typical to humans, but not to dogs. Yes, we are idle wanderers, spectators of happenings, while every dog cannot live without a purpose, especially if he is a representative of a working breed. So, if you go anywhere - you should show your dog what he is there for. Many dog owners waste their money trying to adjust their aggressive dogs by training other behaviour than aggressive, but they bring them to the dog parks only to stay around and yak. At the moment your dog's job in the streets is to bark at people, he thinks - that is his main purpose to be in the streets, he is scared but he knows that his barking keeps monsters at bay. I'm very sorry for your pup.
Walk him focusing on you with a ball on rope, play with him on the way. Start training with minimum distraction level, very early mornings, then later more busy hours. Show him that parks are for ball chasing (on long leash) not for meeting dogs. Walk away luring him away with his ball from distractions, at the moment he is only confronting them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> So today the worst happened. i'm so pissed at my boyfriend, a man asked if he could pet Vader as SO was waiting outside the store for me. I initially told SO do not let anyone pet him or make eye contact, i always step in front and tell them sternly "no", just as you said, so i'm between the person and the dog. It seems my SO didn't tell the man "no", simply advised him that Vader was wary of people. And he ended up biting the man's hand. obviously with him being 5 months old and his teeth haven't come through yet, it was just a nip and no blood drawn. Still, this shows that he will bite if anyone tries to touch him. Mostly, i'm pissed at my bf for not telling the man a strict "NO"


OP, you, and others reading, might find my words harsh, but YOU have a responsibility to all in involved to remove your dog from any dicey situation. Placing your dog in a position where bites can happen and trying to control and manage your dog's problems by trying to manage and control the environment is not a viable option. Telling a stranger "NO, he bites, is in training, fill in the blank", is often met with "Oh, but dogs like me" as they ignore your wishes. What next? Resort to fisticuffs? You are letting your dog to close to others beyond what your dog is ready for. For everybody's safety, please get professional help before things escalate further. What you have been doing, and are doing now, is not working out for you.


----------



## voodoolamb

Re: prongs and e collars.

Yes they are just tools. The can help lead to wonderful results. I personally don't find them cruel, though I do prefer to use them sparingly with my own pups. They're Safer and more effective then choke chains, slip leads, head collars and the like. 

However to be effective they MUST be used correctly. Timing of corrections is critical AND fairly individualized. My aggressive pit bull needed a heavy correction at a far distance for very minimal "infractions". The timing and amount of pressure I used for him would be counter productive and probably out right cruel to use on your dog. 

Yes. I'm saying it again ; ) 

Since it is your first time using these tools, it is important you use them under the guidance of an experienced trainer. 

Also be wary of using such tools for lifetime management. The goal for 90% of the dogs that you use these with should be to eventually graduate away from needing them. I see a lot of people using them as a band-aid instead of actually training. There may be a day when life happens and you find yourself without your tools and you need your dog to obey. 

Your dog officially has a bite history now. Things just got 100x more serious. How did your boyfriend respond to the bite? Did he correct the dog? What he did immediately after the bite can be complete game changers. The pup isn't testing the waters anymore. What I am concerned about is the behavior of your SO directly after the bite reinforced to your dog that biting gets results...


----------



## xWolf

Stonevintage said:


> Everyone should stand behind their own comments here. When you don't just speak for yourself, you will eventually push yourself into a corner and then you will have to speak for yourself. No "like" button to bail you.
> 
> Everyone does have a right to voice their opinion here. Those who are not professional trainers or behaviorists should bear in mind that fact. Everything else here is just opinion - some wide range of experience - certainly, but that does not seem proportional on the amount of advise given. I wonder how that all looks to someone new here.....


I've been a lurker of this forum for a while, just not posted until now, so i knew what it would be like :')


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> One thing I would like to point out is that you don't need to have a breed specific trainer as much as you need one familiar with your breed.
> 
> Don't ask if a trainer specialized in gsds, i think very few trainers actually ONLY deal with 1 breed. I dont know any good gsd guys who couldnt work wonders with a malinois for example. Ask what breeds they work with the most, what breeds they personally own, etc.
> 
> Note to OP: please keep in mind that aggression, especially human aggression like you have described, is a very serious problem that could leave your dog dead and you in financial ruin. It's not something that you want to leave solely up to the advice of strangers on the internet who may have only dealt with one or two of their own personal dogs and have never seen your dog in the flesh. There are many nuances to dog behavior and it is very difficult to properly "diagnosis" problem behaviors without seeing your dog in person. From you example I see an insecure dog. Other posters see a dog that is just being a butt. There are just as many nuances in handling such a dog as the dog has itself. Many of which are difficult to convey through text alone. Timing, amount of pressure and the ability to read your dog is absolutely critical
> 
> 
> Please for the sake of your pup seek a qualified professional in your area. Perhaps contact your nations german shepherd kennel club. They may be able to direct you to resources in your area. I'd look into any training clubs that specialise in bite sports. They know gsd aggression.


Thank you for the advice  the guy i found has worked with a number of working dogs, though i'm not sure HOW familiar he is with the breed. my next step is to contact the local council and see if they can point me in the right direct for the police dog handler, as i know they will be familiar with the breed.


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> Oh one more thing I would like to add. I am one of the "lucky" few that has actually had a dog bite someone.
> 
> It. Was. A. Nightmare.
> 
> First I want to say it was actually a provoked attack, where legally the dog had a "right" to defend himself and me. Even so I had to have my dog quarantined. Animal control opened an investigation which included them interviewing my neighbor's and vet. Even though the bite took place while a crime was being committed - ac still could have ruled my dog vicious due to the severity of the bite, which meant I would have had to pick up a 6 figure liability insurance, and my dog would ALWAYS have to be muzzled and leashed in public. I ended up hiring an attorney for peace of mind and assistance in dealing with the whole fiasco.
> 
> Oh. Annnd. I am still going to be within the statue of limitations for a civil suit for a few more years. So even though my dog is "safe" the $#@!^ who assaulted me can sue me at any time. The judge can always decide that excessive force was used via my dog and I'm up the creek without a paddle having to pay that guy.
> 
> And this is for a provoked bite. I cannot even begin to imagine the stress of a dog that bites an innocent victim.


I'm sorry that you had to go through that. i don't know what the law is in the States, but i think if it's a provoked attack the UK law seems to be more lenient. imho it's ridiculous that you could be sued when your dog was just protecting you/himself. as for unprovoked, you're right. i'd be devastated if anyone got seriously bitten ,and god forbid he be put to sleep. that's why i'm doing all i can to. i've contacted a bunch of people and am waiting on a response. i just wanted some insight from people on here, i guess mainly for support since none of my friends or family are familiar with the breed.


----------



## xWolf

Dotbat215 said:


> This. When I think of breed specific training, I don't think of someone who only trains pugs or gsds or what have you but someone who has a decent amount of experience with your breed. I think breed does matter. Yes, some things are universal but the reason we have different breeds is because we needed different things from them both physically and mentally.
> 
> My parents have a jack Russell terrier. I would not suggest a trainer who has never worked with one. They, IME, require a level of patience and consistency that some other breeds don't. My gs mix picks up on new things right away, is eager to please, wants to work as a team, and is forgiving if we are not on our A game.
> 
> Similar to Voodoo lamb...my dog bit another dog. And it was the freaking worst. Basically a friend with two chiweenies came to get something from my house. He knew Chandler was himself attacked by a dog and now had aggression issues. We told him don't bring your dogs. Many times. He brought them in the car with him, they were not secured in the car, he left the car door open, he opened MY door, Chandler got out and grabbed his dog (who left the vehicle) and put a bunch of puncture wounds in its neck. It was one of the worst nights of my life.
> 
> Getting a trainer was the best thing. I should have done it earlier. Having an objective 3rd party to train both you and your dog is incredibly helpful. I can't watch and crtique myself as I train but with a trainer I get great feedback in real time.
> 
> If you think he could legit bite a person or animal then talk to someone. I think going it alone is stressful, personally, and stress makes the situation harder.
> 
> Plus, it can be a lot of fun for you and the dog. My pup loves his trainers. Loves learning new things and it really has deepened our bond. ?


Thanks  im trying to find trainers, there just tends to be barely any familiar with the breed who will actually do contact visits. i've contacted a number of people and am waiting on a response. i'm sorry you had to go through that.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Stonevintage said:


> Everyone should stand behind their own comments here. When you don't just speak for yourself, you will eventually push yourself into a corner and then you will have to speak for yourself. No "like" button to bail you.
> 
> Everyone does have a right to voice their opinion here. Those who are not professional trainers or behaviorists should bear in mind that fact. Everything else here is just opinion - some wide range of experience - certainly, but that does not seem proportional on the amount of advise given. I wonder how that all looks to someone new here.....


People here who speak strongly about aggression have experience with it, and are trying to help. Opinions are not useful to someone whose puppy has started intentionally biting. Aggression goes up exponentially and by 18 months, dogs that aren't controlled and trained earlier are in danger of being put down. If I think my experiences can help fix and save even one dog, I will continue to post. This isn't about making people feel good, it's about helping their dogs. I also believe someone who has not successfully trained a dog out of biting or who hasn't owned a dog that has to be managed every day of its life should NOT be giving opinions on the subject.


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> Thank you for the advice  the guy i found has worked with a number of working dogs, though i'm not sure HOW familiar he is with the breed. my next step is to contact the local council and see if they can point me in the right direct for the police dog handler, as i know they will be familiar with the breed.


You are making good choices. If your trainer understand working breeds, he should have the tools and experience to help you. But if you don't feel confident in his abilities for your problem, find someone else.


----------



## xWolf

Muskeg said:


> Hey, OP, sorry to hear about this incident. I recommend finding a trainer. I think Jamie Penrith might be nearby? At Take the Lead Dog Training. Look him up. If he can't help you, he'll direct you to someone who can.
> 
> A good trainer has really solid foundational knowledge and the skills and experience to back it up.
> 
> OP- this isn't really directed at you but at other commenters on this thread. I think the difference between someone like Jeff Gellman and someone like Ivan B is that Ivan has a much deeper and better understanding of dog training science and at this point the innovation and experience to work with just about any dog. Where as I see Jeff G having a lot less creativity. He seems to do a rote routine with each dog. Which might work OK in most cases, but he's not going to have the high level results of someone like Ivan B.


Thanks for your advice. I looked him up and unfortunately he's at the opposite end of the country  I will give him a message though to see if he knows of anyone nearby.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> First bold, on leash? If so, although many will disagree with me, but on leash walking isn't exercise for a dog.
> 
> Second bold, to clarify, the gets 2- 30 minute runs at the park? How often? Or should I understand that to read that he does get run at the park on occasion? Once again, how often?


Yes, 30 mins leash walking. What would you recommend exercise wise for a dog of his age? His energy comes in bouts, which can be expected of a puppy his age (like he'll be extremely hyper one minute, 30 mins later super calm. i havent been on runs with him, however he free runs on a long leash at the park twice a day (ie games of fetch). i want to start running with him ASAP, but i've been advised not too because of his age.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is the member and dog I was speaking about.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...lease-help-euth-appointment-4-45pm-today.html


Thank you


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> Yes, 30 mins leash walking. What would you recommend exercise wise for a dog of his age? His energy comes in bouts, which can be expected of a puppy his age (like he'll be extremely hyper one minute, 30 mins later super calm. i havent been on runs with him, however he free runs on a long leash at the park twice a day (ie games of fetch). i want to start running with him ASAP, but i've been advised not too because of his age.


Puppies and adult dogs will run with you until they drop just to please the owner. I let mine run in the yard to tire him out, rather than long walks or runs. Then I'm not stuck away from home with a dog too big to carry who can't walk another step.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> A collar is just a tool and can work in any type of aggression. If used correctly the collar won't make a behavior worse. A prong collar is a tool you use to speak to your dog. Puppies that show aggression might be genetically aggressive or they might be confused and trying out behaviors to see what works and what doesn't. When you use the collar to let the dog know a behavior isn't acceptable, the dog will be more relaxed as he begins to learn what is OK. I find a trained dog is calmer because they aren't living with uncertainty.


With regards to collars, what would you recommend using? I'm going to be asking trainer advise about this, however i'm just wondering the general preference. E-collar or prong? i've heard a lot of bad things about choke chains.


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> Re: prongs and e collars.
> 
> Yes they are just tools. The can help lead to wonderful results. I personally don't find them cruel, though I do prefer to use them sparingly with my own pups. They're Safer and more effective then choke chains, slip leads, head collars and the like.
> 
> However to be effective they MUST be used correctly. Timing of corrections is critical AND fairly individualized. My aggressive pit bull needed a heavy correction at a far distance for very minimal "infractions". The timing and amount of pressure I used for him would be counter productive and probably out right cruel to use on your dog.
> 
> Yes. I'm saying it again ; )
> 
> Since it is your first time using these tools, it is important you use them under the guidance of an experienced trainer.
> 
> Also be wary of using such tools for lifetime management. The goal for 90% of the dogs that you use these with should be to eventually graduate away from needing them. I see a lot of people using them as a band-aid instead of actually training. There may be a day when life happens and you find yourself without your tools and you need your dog to obey.
> 
> Your dog officially has a bite history now. Things just got 100x more serious. How did your boyfriend respond to the bite? Did he correct the dog? What he did immediately after the bite can be complete game changers. The pup isn't testing the waters anymore. What I am concerned about is the behavior of your SO directly after the bite reinforced to your dog that biting gets results...


I haven't talked to him yet, because after this event we had an argument regarding this and some other issues. Knowing my boyfriend i'm guessing he corrected him, probably verbally.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> Yes, 30 mins leash walking. What would you recommend exercise wise for a dog of his age? His energy comes in bouts, which can be expected of a puppy his age (like he'll be extremely hyper one minute, 30 mins later super calm. i havent been on runs with him, however he free runs on a long leash at the park twice a day (ie games of fetch). i want to start running with him ASAP, but i've been advised not too because of his age.


Don't you have any local parks, lakes or hiking trails that you can take him to let him run off leash? As long as my puppies are on *natural* surfaces, I let them set their own exercise limits. It is good for their bones and overall health. Long leash is not free running unless you have a very long leash. It can take quite a distance for them to get into a full run. :wink2: Appropriate exercise can take the edge off while a lack of exercise can have the opposite effect. 

Does he ever get to be just a dog and do doggy things?


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP, you, and others reading, might find my words harsh, but YOU have a responsibility to all in involved to remove your dog from any dicey situation. Placing your dog in a position where bites can happen and trying to control and manage your dog's problems by trying to manage and control the environment is not a viable option. Telling a stranger "NO, he bites, is in training, fill in the blank", is often met with "Oh, but dogs like me" as they ignore your wishes. What next? Resort to fisticuffs? You are letting your dog to close to others beyond what your dog is ready for. For everybody's safety, please get professional help before things escalate further. What you have been doing, and are doing now, is not working out for you.


I wouldn't usually flood him like that. usually we go out at minimal times or people watch without him interacting. However we were out with him and realised we needed to go to the store, thinking it would be quiet at the time we went.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> Puppies and adult dogs will run with you until they drop just to please the owner. I let mine run in the yard to tire him out, rather than long walks or runs. Then I'm not stuck away from home with a dog too big to carry who can't walk another step.


We don't have a big yard, we use the communal park which is rarely visited by anyone, and is RIGHT on top of us, so basically a 10 second walk away. because it's still a public place, i still keep him on a long leash.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't you have any local parks, lakes or hiking trails that you can take him to let him run off leash? As long as my puppies are on *natural* surfaces, I let them set their own exercise limits. It is good for their bones and overall health. Long leash is not free running unless you have a very long leash. It can take quite a distance for them to get into a full run. :wink2: Appropriate exercise can take the edge off while a lack of exercise can have the opposite effect.
> 
> Does he ever get to be just a dog and do doggy things?


what do you mean by 'doggy things' sorry i don;t mean to sound stupid on the matter. most parks, lakes and trails we take him to and he absolutely loves, however all of them are visited often by public and other dogs, albeit not busy. However we're working on recall and with other people/dogs about, i cant trust him off leash, even if it's just the one person we pass by.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> what do you mean by 'doggy things' sorry i don;t mean to sound stupid on the matter. most parks, lakes and trails we take him to and he absolutely loves, however all of them are visited often by public and other dogs, albeit not busy. However we're working on recall and with other people/dogs about, i cant trust him off leash, even if it's just the one person we pass by.


Doggy things, just be a dog, follow his nose where ever it goes. Swim out into a lake to grab a stick. Just to do what he wants to do. 

My last puppy, on the way home from the airport, off leash at the river getting to be a puppy and bonding with me before even going home.


----------



## voodoolamb

Doggy things:










Hehe I just love this pic and must share it at every opportunity


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Doggy things:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe I just love this pic and must share it at every opportunity


That is a great picture of doing doggy things. He could not be happier. He loves you for letting him do that! 

I have some of those in my last computer that crashed. Someday I will retrieve them.


----------



## Dotbat215

I wish I had some pics of my recent off leash/very long drag leash adventures but I never have enough pockets...

Before we started training Chandler could not have been trusted to not be on a short leash. He didn't know to focus on me, to come when called when there was modest stimuli about, and he was reactive to dogs who were far away. Learning to trust us and to have better doggy manners earned him more privileges. We go out to the 8 acres my in laws own and he runs at a full clip, swims in the creeks and ponds, tries to catch koi (in vain). It's a good life and its worth working for.


----------



## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> Doggy things:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe I just love this pic and must share it at every opportunity


OMG ... lab (derivative) thing in my case. Anything that looks like water ... the horror, the horror! Someone has to clean them up!


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> So today the worst happened. i'm so pissed at my boyfriend, a man asked if he could pet Vader as SO was waiting outside the store for me. I initially told SO do not let anyone pet him or make eye contact, i always step in front and tell them sternly "no", just as you said, so i'm between the person and the dog. It seems my SO didn't tell the man "no", simply advised him that Vader was wary of people. And he ended up biting the man's hand. obviously with him being 5 months old and his teeth haven't come through yet, it was just a nip and no blood drawn. Still, this shows that he will bite if anyone tries to touch him. Mostly, i'm pissed at my bf for not telling the man a strict "NO"


At five months??? Really ... first I want to say wow ...I'm surprised! Rocky did not reveal "clearly in anycase that I had a problem until he was 14 months or so. But ... this is not directly on you. It falls under the category of "Crap Happens!" 

He was a foster fail and we got him at 7 months ...but we do not get a lot of company ... so we folks came over during the "Holidays"" Surprise ... I had a problem!

I hope "legally" everything works out and going forward ... I think I've got some insight as to how to proceed here.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8020481-post65.html

None of that is about "you" it was not your mistake. But now the dogs has learned that well if I bite the crap out of someone ... they'll get out of face! And I know that was most definitely a lesson you wanted him to learn. I'm so sorry this happened.


----------



## Chip18

Man ... I'm getting pretty tried of beating this dead horse to death!:









Am I the only one that gets this?? To wit ... a dog does not need an owner for exercise! A dog does need an owner to go on a proper structured walk! The walk is about "discipline" not exercise, a proper "structured walk" can teach your dog how you expect them to behave, a walk and exercise similar but different "both" are needed.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP, you, and others reading, might find my words harsh, but YOU have a responsibility to all in involved to remove your dog from any dicey situation. Placing your dog in a position where bites can happen and trying to control and manage your dog's problems by trying to manage and control the environment is not a viable option. Telling a stranger "NO, he bites, is in training, fill in the blank", is often met with "Oh, but dogs like me" as they ignore your wishes. What next? Resort to fisticuffs? You are letting your dog to close to others beyond what your dog is ready for. For everybody's safety, please get professional help before things escalate further. What you have been doing, and are doing now, is not working out for you.


Hm, well as I understood it?? The dog was not under the OP's control??? 

But since you referenced "fisticuffs???" Yesss ... I'm that guy! Now that never happened but it could have! "I" don't play! No means No or bear the "consequences!" So yeah for "me" if I say "No" and someone persist ... there is going to be a "problem!" 

If people are trying to "rehab" a dog with "bite potential" in public "Bubble Dog" it is "serious feaking business!" If they aren't able to "keep people out of the dogs face" then rehome the dog before he bite someone's!

As I read it the "OP's" only fault lay in trusting her SO, to comply with her instructions??


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> I've been a lurker of this forum for a while, just not posted until now, so i knew what it would be like :')


Luker huh ... so ... what do you think???


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hm, well as I understood it?? The dog was not under the OP's control???
> 
> But since you referenced "fisticuffs???" Yesss ... I'm that guy! Now that never happened but it could have! "I" don't play! No means No or bear the "consequences!" So yeah for "me" if I say "No" and someone persist ... there is going to be a "problem!"
> 
> If people are trying to "rehab" a dog with "bite potential" in public "Bubble Dog" it is "serious feaking business!" If they aren't able to "keep people out of the dogs face" then rehome the dog before he bite someone's!
> 
> As I read it the "OP's" only fault lay in trusting her SO, to comply with her instructions??


It is OP's dog and it is up to her to decide / control who is on the other end of the leash of the dog.

It wasn't so long ago another member on this form chose to not remove her dog from a dangerous situation and her dog was attacked by a stranger resulting in that member having "fisticuffs" with the stranger. The way I heard it, the dog was injured, vet verified. This was less than an ideal situation for all involved and I would not recommend it.

If people have a dog with the real potential to bite, rehoming it is not necessarily the easiest, or best thing to do. OP is willing to work with her dog, she just needs the right tools. Some people can DIY, others need more.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> With regards to collars, what would you recommend using? I'm going to be asking trainer advise about this, however i'm just wondering the general preference. E-collarto prop or prong? i've heard a lot of bad things about choke chains.


 Ok well your asking the right questions. 

Pretty much all the "Pro's" at least start with a "Prong Collar" and then switch to E-Collars?? I don't get it myself but that seems to be the trend?? 

So in order to properly use and understand those tools I would go here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidK9Training/playlists

E-Collars and Prongs

And here:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodDogTraining/playlists

And here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tylor+muto+prong+collar

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tylor+muto+e+collar

And with the E-Collar for a fuller understanding ... see here:
How To...

Prong's and E-Collars are all to much "stuff" for me, I like to KISS so I'm a SLL guy,. But using a SLL seems to more of an "Art" than a science but it works for me.


So ... for those who are curious:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

This should help???


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is OP's dog and it is up to her to decide / control who is on the other end of the leash of the dog.
> 
> It wasn't so long ago another member on this form chose to not remove her dog from a dangerous situation and her dog was attacked by a stranger resulting in that member having "fisticuffs" with the stranger. The way I heard it, the dog was injured, vet verified. This was less than an ideal situation for all involved and I would not recommend it.
> 
> If people have a dog with the real potential to bite, rehoming it is not necessarily the easiest, or best thing to do. OP is willing to work with her dog, she just needs the right tools. Some people can DIY, others need more.


 Well pretty much no disagreements just some observation. 

The OP fell into a "loop hole" and in many thousands of words on this topic ... it's one I never thought of ??? 

Handing the Dog off to my SO was never a consideration in our household?? I'd always trained our dogs and when my SO got them all she had to was take the leash and tell them to Sit Down or Stay as needed or required. 

But ..."Rocky" LOL yeah uh "NO!" His behaviour with Gunther (frequent attacks) and his "attitude" with company .... scared the crap out of her! He never had a problem with us or Struddell (wise call on his part I might add) but "everybody else" yeah he had a "problem!" So no handing him off to "anyone" other myself was "never" a consideration???


And no of course not everyone can "DIY" there dog and certainly not a human aggressive dog, that kicks it up a notch. ANd if that dog is not that bad ... "my" approach still works. But for those that can or think they can?? I show what I did and what it looks like with readily available information and sources cited and put it all in one place with context. 

When I had my issues 9 years ago (I did not know of Jeff Gellman back then) so I found nothing on "Rehabbing a "H/A"dog?? Only thing I found that seemed helpful was "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" and I thought, well heck by and large I do that anyway! 

The only spin I put on "Who Pet's ..." was "maintaining distance" and saying "NO" for a very long time instead of "YES" to may I pet?? Worked out fine, I feel anyone can do that?? They just have to know what it looks and then they can decide for themselves if it's something they can do


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> With regards to collars, what would you recommend using? I'm going to be asking trainer advise about this, however i'm just wondering the general preference. E-collar or prong? i've heard a lot of bad things about choke chains.


I have used a Halti and don't like it. I use a choke chain if I need a little control like taking a dog out late at night when we might run into wild animals but I am not teaching anything. For training I have successfully used a flat buckle collar, a prong and very sparingly, an e collar. I have had a trainer show me how to use each type of collar successfully. I have also used a front clip harness to teach focus and basic leash walking with a strong puppy that was too young for a prong, but harnesses can introduce pulling and aggression so you need to know how to use them safely.

In my own experience, the most harmful collars for an active German Shepherd are head collars and choke chains.


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> We don't have a big yard, we use the communal park which is rarely visited by anyone, and is RIGHT on top of us, so basically a 10 second walk away. because it's still a public place, i still keep him on a long leash.


That's fine, as long as you have a place where your dog can run around without being bothered by other dogs or people.mthey don't need a big yard as long as they have room to run a little without hitting anything.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Doggy things, just be a dog, follow his nose where ever it goes. Swim out into a lake to grab a stick. Just to do what he wants to do.
> 
> My last puppy, on the way home from the airport, off leash at the river getting to be a puppy and bonding with me before even going home.
> 
> View attachment 377665


he looks so much like mine when he was 8 weeks. 

Yeah, my parents have a caravan in the lake district, so we go up there every week and he does "doggy" things as you say, at the lake 

he doesn't like to actually swim , i think the feeling of being weighless uneasy for him, however he is curious about the water and enjoys having a paddle. he also LOVES digging.

there's also a river nearby our home, however i'm conscious it's a 40minute walk to get there (i don't drive) and we would have to travel through the city centre (past high street stores/malls) to get there. may just take a wonder in the evening sometime.


----------



## David Winners

To the OP:

I think you need a systematic approach to handling this dog. Some hard, fast rules that will help keep you and the dog safe, along with a plan of action that you can follow that will help but not overwhelm you or the dog. Lots of talk about tools and videos of trainers, but little meat to the conversation when it comes to your specific situation.

The first thing you need to do is successfully manage the dog at all times. This means no interaction with people outside of his family / people he already trusts and has shown good behavior around. This means that you manage the situation as well, not through obedience or communication with the dog. You handle people. Let the puppy be. Do not take this dog where it will encounter strangers until you have it's focus (more on this later). If you are at the park and someone begins to approach you, you tell them that they can not approach your dog. If they continue, you tell them to go away. All calmly and matter of fact. You handle the situation and let the dog observe you doing this.

For at least the next few months, I would drastically reduce the amount of contact this dog has with the public. Do not let him practice self rewarding behaviors, like barking at strangers on a walk making them go away. This behavior will become a habit, and habits are hard to break. When you have failures, and you will, look at the situation and ask yourself honestly how you let the dog down. Wrong time or place? Distracted? Too fast too soon? Patience and planning will go a long way towards success.

You have to be the coolest thing in the world. Cooler and more important than any stranger. This takes a couple things, and you have to understand them fully to get the dog on the same page. The first is communication. You need a system to communicate with the dog. This must be something that the dog understands, not just something you think the dog understands. Rote repetition and constant re-enforcement over a week or so should get things to a level of understanding that is beneficial. Working inside a proven system has benefits if you don't want to take the time (which you don't have) to educate yourself in animal behavior and learning theory. This is why people are pointing you in the direction of certain trainers. They have systems and they work. Pick one and dive in. IMO, you want something based in operant conditioning, marker training, clicker training... All the same thing. Get a couple beginning videos or YouTube a bunch of stuff and go from there. If you want my personal recommendations, let me know. What is important is that you find a system and get a good grasp on the basics before you start working with the dog.

The second thing is consistency. Absolute consistency in what you will allow, what will be rewarded, what will be punished, and what is going to happen when. Dogs pick things up very quickly when you are consistent. You pick up a dog bowl, dog gets excited because it's dinner time. You get up out of your chair and grab the leash, dog gets excited because it's walk time. This reality can be taken advantage of in a lot of ways if you consider your routine, your interaction with the dog, and the stimuli that the dog is exposed to. Controlling all the variables in a given situation will allow you to shape the outcome favorably for your training. Set the dog up for success so you can reward the behavior you want. Set the dog up for failure so you can punish the behavior you are trying to extinguish (do this very sparingly and with much planning). Building habits is what you are trying to do. Thinking of training in those terms usually helps people understand the basics of operant conditioning.

Lastly, as many others have stated, you need professional help. That doesn't meant that all the things above won't drastically help your situation. All these things you are going to need to learn from the trainer if you don't get a jump on things. It will just speed the process along if you do your homework and start creating a good learning environment for the dog right away. Stop letting the dog practice bad behaviors (management) and start building good ones (training). 

I didn't touch on the fear / aggression / dominance thing because I haven't seen the dog. Any opinion would be speculation as internet descriptions of dog behavior are sketchy at best. If you want my opinion on the dog, shoot some video and post it for review. Please incluse whoever is handling the dog in the video as well so others can see their interaction with the dog.

Best of luck, and feel free to ask for clarification or more information as you need it.


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> Doggy things:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe I just love this pic and must share it at every opportunity


he's so sweet


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> he looks so much like mine when he was 8 weeks.
> 
> Yeah, my parents have a caravan in the lake district, so we go up there every week and he does "doggy" things as you say, at the lake
> 
> he doesn't like to actually swim , i think the feeling of being weighless uneasy for him, however he is curious about the water and enjoys having a paddle. he also LOVES digging.
> 
> there's also a river nearby our home, however i'm conscious it's a 40minute walk to get there (i don't drive) and we would have to travel through the city centre (past high street stores/malls) to get there. may just take a wonder in the evening sometime.


Yes, but does he get to run freely like in the pictures posted?


----------



## xWolf

WembleyDogsUK said:


> No tools like prongs can help you if you continue to brush against the grain. This purposeless wandering around which many call "a dog walk"- is typical to humans, but not to dogs. Yes, we are idle wanderers, spectators of happenings, while every dog cannot live without a purpose, especially if he is a representative of a working breed. So, if you go anywhere - you should show your dog what he is there for. Many dog owners waste their money trying to adjust their aggressive dogs by training other behaviour than aggressive, but they bring them to the dog parks only to stay around and yak. At the moment your dog's job in the streets is to bark at people, he thinks - that is his main purpose to be in the streets, he is scared but he knows that his barking keeps monsters at bay. I'm very sorry for your pup.
> Walk him focusing on you with a ball on rope, play with him on the way. Start training with minimum distraction level, very early mornings, then later more busy hours. Show him that parks are for ball chasing (on long leash) not for meeting dogs. Walk away luring him away with his ball from distractions, at the moment he is only confronting them.


thanks for your advice  we walked today using his rope-ball after following your advice of giving him a job to do. at first i was a little skeptical because vader sometimes gets over-excited and starts biting the leash, we've been slowly training this out of him but if he's over excited it still happens. so i thought bringing out a rope-ball would amp up this behaviour. however, it helped him to have something to focus on, and he didn't bark at any passers by (believe me,there were a lot for 5 in the morning.) he DID bark at 2 little yappy pugs that were passing by, but i kept him on a short leash and kept everything positive, and tbh they were barking as they came towards us so not really his fault.


----------



## xWolf

Dotbat215 said:


> I wish I had some pics of my recent off leash/very long drag leash adventures but I never have enough pockets...
> 
> Before we started training Chandler could not have been trusted to not be on a short leash. He didn't know to focus on me, to come when called when there was modest stimuli about, and he was reactive to dogs who were far away. Learning to trust us and to have better doggy manners earned him more privileges. We go out to the 8 acres my in laws own and he runs at a full clip, swims in the creeks and ponds, tries to catch koi (in vain). It's a good life and its worth working for.


i've been using a long drag leash for outings,also using to work on recall.


----------



## selzer

Have you contacted the breeder?

Have you considered returning the puppy to the breeder?


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> At five months??? Really ... first I want to say wow ...I'm surprised! Rocky did not reveal "clearly in anycase that I had a problem until he was 14 months or so. But ... this is not directly on you. It falls under the category of "Crap Happens!"
> 
> He was a foster fail and we got him at 7 months ...but we do not get a lot of company ... so we folks came over during the "Holidays"" Surprise ... I had a problem!
> 
> I hope "legally" everything works out and going forward ... I think I've got some insight as to how to proceed here.:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8020481-post65.html
> 
> None of that is about "you" it was not your mistake. But now the dogs has learned that well if I bite the crap out of someone ... they'll get out of face! And I know that was most definitely a lesson you wanted him to learn. I'm so sorry this happened.


Thanks for your kind words  vader will be using a muzzle from now on and no one will have an opportunity to pet him. the man in question i believe just laughed it off because of how small he is (still teething) but obviously wouldn't be the case if he was a year. I found out from my boyfriend he verbally reprimanded him. but obviously this probably made no difference as like you said, we need to teach him right from wrong.


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> Luker huh ... so ... what do you think???


i find some people comment's to be a bit direct and harsh. however i knew it'd be like this. and i'm taking everyone's comments on board as well as pursuing a trainer in my local area. I can do this


----------



## gsdluvr

Yes you can!! And it sounds like you've already started!!!


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is OP's dog and it is up to her to decide / control who is on the other end of the leash of the dog.
> 
> It wasn't so long ago another member on this form chose to not remove her dog from a dangerous situation and her dog was attacked by a stranger resulting in that member having "fisticuffs" with the stranger. The way I heard it, the dog was injured, vet verified. This was less than an ideal situation for all involved and I would not recommend it.
> 
> If people have a dog with the real potential to bite, rehoming it is not necessarily the easiest, or best thing to do. OP is willing to work with her dog, she just needs the right tools. Some people can DIY, others need more.


It's "my " dog you could say, but i live with my partner. so really he's both our dog. I mean, i do most of the training, walking, physical and mental exercise with him. But SO steps in when i'm working or have a busy schedule. he also spends more time in the house with Vader when i'm working. usually we wouldn't go to a place we know there will be people in close proximity, as i don't want to flood him and make it worse, but we needed the store and i told my boyfriend to wait in an area where there wouldn't be many passers by. so really it was partly his fault for ignoring my strict instructions, especially cause Vader's his dog too. Inevitably in life either now or in the future, there are gonna be situations where someone happens to be in close proximity, it just can't be helped. my fault for deciding to go to the store and not having precautions ie muzzle ready though. I 've also posted in a comment below in how SO reacted to situation


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> Ok well your asking the right questions.
> 
> Pretty much all the "Pro's" at least start with a "Prong Collar" and then switch to E-Collars?? I don't get it myself but that seems to be the trend??
> 
> So in order to properly use and understand those tools I would go here:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidK9Training/playlists
> 
> E-Collars and Prongs
> 
> And here:
> https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodDogTraining/playlists
> 
> And here:
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tylor+muto+prong+collar
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tylor+muto+e+collar
> 
> And with the E-Collar for a fuller understanding ... see here:
> How To...
> 
> Prong's and E-Collars are all to much "stuff" for me, I like to KISS so I'm a SLL guy,. But using a SLL seems to more of an "Art" than a science but it works for me.
> 
> 
> So ... for those who are curious:
> 
> Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums
> 
> This should help???


Thanks for all the links, i will definitely look into it.i want to go with what;s best for my guy, since there's no 'one size fits all 'approach. i will probably wait for trainer's opinion too


----------



## Steve Strom

When you're looking for a trainer, my advice for what its worth is to focus on obedience. Not all the behaviorist types. Obedience never hurts. Playing around with all the tossing treats stuff, life's too short.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> I have used a Halti and don't like it. I use a choke chain if I need a little control like taking a dog out late at night when we might run into wild animals but I am not teaching anything. For training I have successfully used a flat buckle collar, a prong and very sparingly, an e collar. I have had a trainer show me how to use each type of collar successfully. I have also used a front clip harness to teach focus and basic leash walking with a strong puppy that was too young for a prong, but harnesses can introduce pulling and aggression so you need to know how to use them safely.
> 
> In my own experience, the most harmful collars for an active German Shepherd are head collars and choke chains.


i've been using a harness from day one (albeit not a front clip one). i was told by the vet and numerous other people that harnesses stopped pulling -_- now i'm just confused. so obviously i've been making it worse


----------



## Steve Strom

xWolf said:


> i've been using a harness from day one (albeit not a front clip one). i was told by the vet and numerous other people that harnesses stopped pulling -_- now i'm just confused. so obviously i've been making it worse


Look at what they put on sled dogs, or what they use for weight pulling. Beginning bite work. A harness.


----------



## David Winners

Steve Strom said:


> When you're looking for a trainer, my advice for what its worth is to focus on obedience. Not all the behaviorist types. Obedience never hurts. Playing around with all the tossing treats stuff, life's too short.


I agree with Steve here, and will add that many bad behaviors go away through OB training. It develops all the things you want in the dog at the same time instead of focusing on the bad behavior alone.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> That's fine, as long as you have a place where your dog can run around without being bothered by other dogs or people.mthey don't need a big yard as long as they have room to run a little without hitting anything.


No, when i say i don't have a yard i mean, our yard is TINY. like, no room tiny. Lol. Thats' why i use the nearby park and let him run around there. i use a drag leash, not many people walk past there and if i hear someone or see someone in the distance i call him in.


----------



## Steve Strom

Let me give you two examples of why I say what I did, and it bares out a lot of What David mentioned. One dog I created some dog aggression with through frustration. A macho, full of himself male Rott. Showing him in conformation, always restricting him. The other one is your basic nerve bag. Every stupid thing bugs him. Long story short, they obey. I say sit, they sit. I say you can move, they can move. At that point, I don't care if something bothers them or not. I could have spent the rest of their lives trying to change their minds and convincing them everything is good because it means you get a treat, but with two completely different types of dog, you never would see anything bugging them, it was easy enough to show them what was acceptable, and make what wasn't go away through obedience.


----------



## xWolf

David Winners said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I think you need a systematic approach to handling this dog. Some hard, fast rules that will help keep you and the dog safe, along with a plan of action that you can follow that will help but not overwhelm you or the dog. Lots of talk about tools and videos of trainers, but little meat to the conversation when it comes to your specific situation.
> 
> The first thing you need to do is successfully manage the dog at all times. This means no interaction with people outside of his family / people he already trusts and has shown good behavior around. This means that you manage the situation as well, not through obedience or communication with the dog. You handle people. Let the puppy be. Do not take this dog where it will encounter strangers until you have it's focus (more on this later). If you are at the park and someone begins to approach you, you tell them that they can not approach your dog. If they continue, you tell them to go away. All calmly and matter of fact. You handle the situation and let the dog observe you doing this.
> 
> For at least the next few months, I would drastically reduce the amount of contact this dog has with the public. Do not let him practice self rewarding behaviors, like barking at strangers on a walk making them go away. This behavior will become a habit, and habits are hard to break. When you have failures, and you will, look at the situation and ask yourself honestly how you let the dog down. Wrong time or place? Distracted? Too fast too soon? Patience and planning will go a long way towards success.
> 
> You have to be the coolest thing in the world. Cooler and more important than any stranger. This takes a couple things, and you have to understand them fully to get the dog on the same page. The first is communication. You need a system to communicate with the dog. This must be something that the dog understands, not just something you think the dog understands. Rote repetition and constant re-enforcement over a week or so should get things to a level of understanding that is beneficial. Working inside a proven system has benefits if you don't want to take the time (which you don't have) to educate yourself in animal behavior and learning theory. This is why people are pointing you in the direction of certain trainers. They have systems and they work. Pick one and dive in. IMO, you want something based in operant conditioning, marker training, clicker training... All the same thing. Get a couple beginning videos or YouTube a bunch of stuff and go from there. If you want my personal recommendations, let me know. What is important is that you find a system and get a good grasp on the basics before you start working with the dog.
> 
> The second thing is consistency. Absolute consistency in what you will allow, what will be rewarded, what will be punished, and what is going to happen when. Dogs pick things up very quickly when you are consistent. You pick up a dog bowl, dog gets excited because it's dinner time. You get up out of your chair and grab the leash, dog gets excited because it's walk time. This reality can be taken advantage of in a lot of ways if you consider your routine, your interaction with the dog, and the stimuli that the dog is exposed to. Controlling all the variables in a given situation will allow you to shape the outcome favorably for your training. Set the dog up for success so you can reward the behavior you want. Set the dog up for failure so you can punish the behavior you are trying to extinguish (do this very sparingly and with much planning). Building habits is what you are trying to do. Thinking of training in those terms usually helps people understand the basics of operant conditioning.
> 
> Lastly, as many others have stated, you need professional help. That doesn't meant that all the things above won't drastically help your situation. All these things you are going to need to learn from the trainer if you don't get a jump on things. It will just speed the process along if you do your homework and start creating a good learning environment for the dog right away. Stop letting the dog practice bad behaviors (management) and start building good ones (training).
> 
> I didn't touch on the fear / aggression / dominance thing because I haven't seen the dog. Any opinion would be speculation as internet descriptions of dog behavior are sketchy at best. If you want my opinion on the dog, shoot some video and post it for review. Please incluse whoever is handling the dog in the video as well so others can see their interaction with the dog.
> 
> Best of luck, and feel free to ask for clarification or more information as you need it.


Thank you  i would like some recommendations from you if possible? Although i understand the rules of operant conditioning, while i know there's plentiful ways of "rewarding" good behaviour so to speak, i'm just not entirely sure how we should be "punishing" negative behaviour. i know people are saying about e-collars and prongs, which i'm definitely looking into, but i won't be using this until trainer shows me how and i'm just wondering in the meantime how to punish such behaviour. Obviously i'm keeping puppy's interactions with people to a minimum: just people he knows,family,friends. And just people watching from a distance he is comfortable with. However, when the "bad behaviour " does inevitably occur, i'm not sure what 'methods' to use,so to speak.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> Let me give you two examples of why I say what I did, and it bares out a lot of What David mentioned. *One dog I created some dog aggression with through frustration*. A macho, full of himself male Rott. Showing him in conformation,* always restricting him*. The other one is your basic nerve bag. Every stupid thing bugs him. Long story short, they obey. I say sit, they sit. I say you can move, they can move. At that point, I don't care if something bothers them or not. I could have spent the rest of their lives trying to change their minds and convincing them everything is good because it means you get a treat, but with two completely different types of dog, you never would see anything bugging them, it was easy enough to show them what was acceptable, and make what wasn't go away through obedience.


Could you elaborate on the two bolded sections?


----------



## xWolf

selzer said:


> Have you contacted the breeder?
> 
> Have you considered returning the puppy to the breeder?


No, at this point me and SO other are incredibly in love with this dog, he's wonderful indoors and obeys all commands, as of outdoors when no one is about. He's so incredibly affectionate and so smart, his only flaw indoors is some resource guarding around food, which while i know is a serious matter, i would much rather work on these issues than just take him back. i guess it's just my principles,i couldn't give up on him not at this point


----------



## Steve Strom

Moving him in the ring with more intact males in front and behind him. And only being able to hold him back. Making him sit in tight quarters with other dogs growling at him and staring him down and all you can do is hold him tight and try to bribe him with some liver so you won't be dismissed. You never really get the chance to train the correct behavior in the ring. You do what you can to set up things away from the show, in classes or with friends, but then here comes some strange dog that didn't and all you have is that show lead.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Could you elaborate on the two bolded sections?


i can't find your other post , but i believe you asked me if he gets to such activities off -leash. wherever we go there's always a chance of people coming to the area,so at lakes and such like we use a 20m and 30m drag leash.


----------



## xWolf

So just an update, i contacted of all people the local police unit via email to ask to put me in touch with one of their k9 handlers. I actually think i sent an email via the wrong area (ie reporting incidents...oops) however they have kindly forwarded my email to their dog training HQ. i feel like it's unlikely their team will be able to help, but i'm grateful they've forwarded the message anyway and am keeping my fingers crossed while awaiting a response.


----------



## maxtmill

xWolf said:


> It's "my " dog you could say, but i live with my partner. so really he's both our dog. I mean, i do most of the training, walking, physical and mental exercise with him. But SO steps in when i'm working or have a busy schedule. he also spends more time in the house with Vader when i'm working. usually we wouldn't go to a place we know there will be people in close proximity, as i don't want to flood him and make it worse, but we needed the store and i told my boyfriend to wait in an area where there wouldn't be many passers by. so really it was partly his fault for ignoring my strict instructions, especially cause Vader's his dog too. Inevitably in life either now or in the future, there are gonna be sitauations where someone happens to be in close proximity, it just can't be helped. my fault for deciding to go to the store and not having precautions ie muzzle ready though. I 've also posted in a comment below in how SO reacted to situation


My opinion, from my own unfortunate experiences, is that it makes things go worse when your husband/wife does not follow through or is inconsistent with what the primary person in the dog's life is trying to do. Everyone must be on the same page.


----------



## xWolf

maxtmill said:


> My opinion, from my own unfortunate experiences, is that it makes things go worse when your husband/wife does not follow through or is inconsistent with what the primary person in the dog's life is trying to do. Everyone must be on the same page.


i completely agree. that's why me and SO came to loggerheads yesterday. he's agreed that from now on if ever a similar situation DOES arise where a passerby is coming towards, maintain a distance. whilst calmly telling them NO if they come towards/ask to pet. We are also going to write down a bunch of things so we know that we are entirely on the same page when it comes to Vader.


----------



## David Winners

If you get the opportunity to work with a K9 unit, please be sure that it is a trainer you are dealing with, and not a newbie handler. Not saying that an experienced handler wouldn't be someone to work with, but a new handler will know almost nothing about training dogs. Their training is primarily in not messing up the trained dog they are assigned and husbandry.


----------



## David Winners

xWolf said:


> Thank you  i would like some recommendations from you if possible? Although i understand the rules of operant conditioning, while i know there's plentiful ways of "rewarding" good behaviour so to speak, i'm just not entirely sure how we should be "punishing" negative behaviour. i know people are saying about e-collars and prongs, which i'm definitely looking into, but i won't be using this until trainer shows me how and i'm just wondering in the meantime how to punish such behaviour. Obviously i'm keeping puppy's interactions with people to a minimum: just people he knows,family,friends. And just people watching from a distance he is comfortable with. However, when the "bad behaviour " does inevitably occur, i'm not sure what 'methods' to use,so to speak.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a 5 month old dog?

Well timed, correct level, completely understood corrections are not something you can describe in text in a way someone can truly understand them. For now, I would not implement physical corrections above a little poke in the ribs with your finger. The dog needs understanding first, and you need to have some in person instruction on what you need to do with your dog. Right now, manage the situation. If that means you walk the dog at 3 am when no one is around, so be it.

If you are interested in videos, check out Tyler Muto on Youtube for some examples of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> Thank you  i would like some recommendations from you if possible? Although i understand the rules of operant conditioning, while i know there's plentiful ways of "rewarding" good behaviour so to speak, i'm just not entirely sure how we should be "punishing" negative behaviour.* i know people are saying about e-collars and prongs, which i'm definitely looking into*, but i won't be using this until trainer shows me how and i'm just wondering in the meantime how to punish such behaviour. Obviously i'm keeping puppy's interactions with people to a minimum: just people he knows,family,friends. And just people watching from a distance he is comfortable with. However, when the "bad behaviour " does inevitably occur, i'm not sure what 'methods' to use,so to speak.


 The part in bold ... that would not have been me. 

But the fact of the matter is that, all the competent qualified trainers, that I have found and cite ... well .... OK (not Gary Wilke's ... but there is always that guy.  )

Anyway ... competent and qualified would be a Trainer that believe in telling a dog "NO" and giving "consequences" an "Aversive" for a dog making "Poor Choices!" 

Typically that would be a "Balanced Trainer" a trainer that does use all Four Quadrants of COP. It's fairly simple to weed them out if you ask the right questions. 

Might not be any local to you??? But ... grab your phone book or I guess do a search and scratch off anything that has the words ... "Positive Only or Gentle" in the description. They can't help you but some of the others that "can't help you" are kinda tricky!

They actually understand the 4 Quadrants of CQP, I "assume" but chose not to use all four ... "Punishment" for "Poor Choices" is usually the one left out. 

If you want to find a trainer that can "actually" help you with "your" dog ... all you have to do is "Ask them if they use all "four quadrants" of COP. 

The ones that "I" would think can't help you ... will either have no idea what you are talking about or have some "explanation" as to why they only use three??? Those can't help you, you don't have the type of dog/puppy that they can deal with! In my words "A dog can take a treat and still bite ... kinda like ..."How you like me now??" 

Moving on ... a harness may very well be the "source of all your problems???" You can't "correct" a dog with a harness! Harness are designed for a dog to "pull!" You can't "correct a dog with a harness!" With a "Harness" the "magic" ... is supposed to "happen." Engineers are ... are not dog trainers! I suppose they work fine with the right dog ... with the wrong dog ...not so much. 

As for "correction" which you can't do if you are using a harness?? I seriously doubt any owner doing the "pull, straight back thing" could stop this dog.:










Don't be this guy:










A "proper correction"is a slight pull "sideways" to get the dog "off center" dogs don't much care for that. Your choice of using a "harness" with this dog/puppy ... may be the source of your problems??? 

I pretty much called them "crap" and went on from there ... but for a more "intellectual" argument against there use ... another member posted this ...needless to say "I liked it!" 

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/02/10/the-head-halter-torture-pain-and-nonsense-explained/

As for me ... I'm pretty much the "king of KISS!" I roll with a SLL, I understand from my guy Jeff Gellman that you can't correct a dog with a SLL?? That was news to me ...but whatever. 

And no ... not "everyone" can train a dog using a SSL but "some can" if your interested in trying a "SLL" I did this:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And a tip I got from "David" ... for "Rocky" a unique situation, with the "other dogs thing. If I stopped to talk with neighbors with dogs behind fences in front yards. Rocky, would get "agitated" and start to "hobby horse" ticked me off! I was "frustrated" and Rocky has "Ataxia ... wobbles" malformed vertebrae in the spin, so a "slight tug sideways" could be damaging for him??? So the only option I knew of (slight tug sideways) was unalienable for me with him?? 

In one of my "rare" occasions of seeking advise from others ... "David" suggested this.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5120529-post48.html

My respond is in that thread and I was stunned by the results and the "simplicity!" Most likely I did not employ as much "vigor" as "David" would??? As "corrections" are subject to interpretation. But "apparently" I got it just right! I've only done it once and have never had an issue since! Worked out fine ... most likely with a real "tool" of your choice ... that would work out fine with the people thing ... KISS.


----------



## Chip18

Can you post pictures of your puppy??? I gotta admit ... 5 months old??? And as you describe him ... seriously "intense!" My Rocky at least had the good sense to wait till he was 14 months and 116 lbs (yes out of sec) to cope an attitude!

And sorry but LE K9, Trainers ... cuts no slack with me! No shortage of LE K9's , behaving badly! Bolting out of front dogs and attacking neighbors??? That happened, the dog dashed out the front door and bit a neighbor in the butt!!!! Sorry JQP, 101 ... "threshold training" you don't step past that threshold until "I say so!' That dog was 9 months old. And LE K9's mauling their own handlers kids and "neighbors" having to "save" the handlers kid! The child lost a foot in that one! 

Color me unimpressed ... but then by and large ... I do tend to be "that guy" just saying.


----------



## xWolf

David Winners said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a 5 month old dog?
> 
> Well timed, correct level, completely understood corrections are not something you can describe in text in a way someone can truly understand them. For now, I would not implement physical corrections above a little poke in the ribs with your finger. The dog needs understanding first, and you need to have some in person instruction on what you need to do with your dog. Right now, manage the situation. If that means you walk the dog at 3 am when no one is around, so be it.
> 
> If you are interested in videos, check out Tyler Muto on Youtube for some examples of what I'm talking about.


Yep, 5 months old today. Thanks, having a look at some of his videos now.


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> Can you post pictures of your puppy??? I gotta admit ... 5 months old??? And as you describe him ... seriously "intense!" My Rocky at least had the good sense to wait till he was 14 months and 116 lbs (yes out of sec) to cope an attitude!
> 
> And sorry but LE K9, Trainers ... cuts no slack with me! No shortage of LE K9's , behaving badly! Bolting out of front dogs and attacking neighbors??? That happened, the dog dashed out the front door and bit a neighbor in the butt!!!! Sorry JQP, 101 ... "threshold training" you don't step past that threshold until "I say so!' That dog was 9 months old. And LE K9's mauling their own handlers kids and "neighbors" having to "save" the handlers kid! The child lost a foot in that one!
> 
> Color me unimpressed ... but then by and large ... I do tend to be "that guy" just saying.


I may try an SSL then  i agree with you about k9 behaving badly,but it may be my last resort as i'm really struggling to find a trainer i trust /reputable in my area. for the while though i'm following advice and managing behaviour. Today i tried a muzzle on my guy for the first time, he wasn't happy. i've been training him into it for a week with treats etc so he doesn't hate it. i only put it on him properly for the first time today, and unfortunately it's a little big for him.

I wanted to check out a nearby park/river that we haven't been to yet, unfortunately 2mins of the journey is crossing through a busy town centre which can't be avoided, no matter the time of day. vader was really good, somewhat scared but i kept it a game with him to distract. he didn't bark at anyone today other than a man who was cycling past and paid him attention. he only seems to bark if someone pays him attention, eye contact/talk to him etc. if i say hey to someone while passing he's simply aloof.

So i just made sure to keep out of touching distance because we were inevitably going to see people today, even by the quiet river area. I used his collar too. was a really fun day. Vader dragged me down a swamp and got us all covered in mud and nettle stings!!

I posted pics of him at the start of my thread, though maybe it didn't work properly. let me know if it worked. (the one where he's all muddy i took today, the other one about a week ago)


----------



## David Winners

Most K9 trainers, not handlers, have decades working through aggression issues with high drive dogs. Yes, sometimes mistakes happen. Trainers and handlers are people too. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you have a chance to work with a professional trainer used to working through problems with working dogs, I would encourage to at least meet with the trainer and discuss your issues.

A 9mo dog is NOT a K9 unit. It's a high drive puppy in training. I could go on about threshold training and why it is totally different for a patrol dog in training than a pet, but it's not relevant. 

There are some problems with working with a slip lead compared to a prong. Nothing that can't be worked around, but I generally suggest a prong with a nylon slip collar.

ETA: I wouldn't suggest you use either on a 5 month old puppy.


----------



## xWolf

David Winners said:


> Most K9 trainers, not handlers, have decades working through aggression issues with high drive dogs. Yes, sometimes mistakes happen. Trainers and handlers are people too. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you have a chance to work with a professional trainer used to working through problems with working dogs, I would encourage to at least meet with the trainer and discuss your issues.
> 
> A 9mo dog is NOT a K9 unit. It's a high drive puppy in training. I could go on about threshold training and why it is totally different for a patrol dog in training than a pet, but it's not relevant.
> 
> There are some problems with working with a slip lead compared to a prong. Nothing that can't be worked around, but I generally suggest a prong with a nylon slip collar.
> 
> ETA: I wouldn't suggest you use either on a 5 month old puppy.


I'm not planning on using it at this age as he's too young, when would you say is an acceptable age to use ?


----------



## David Winners

6 months under the supervision of a trainer.


----------



## Muskeg

I got advice from a trainer of working dogs once to just "put a dog up" when he is acting out as a pup. By this she meant to not expose the dog to triggers (people, bike, dogs etc) until he matured some. Apparently, that worked for her. After the dog matured a bit, two things happened- he was calmer and not excited by the activity, and since he was older, training was more straight forward. 

It may be next to impossible living in a city, but it is worth considering. For an inexperienced handler, sometimes good faith efforts to socialize a young pup actually backfire. So that those experiences makes a pup more reactive or aggressive as he matures. If he'd never had those negative experiences as a pup, but been allowed to grow up fairly "unscathed" he may never developed bad behaviors as an adult. Sometimes IPO competitors raise a pup in a similar way, so that the pups never "loses" and develops great confidence.

I actually have seen some of this with one of my pups. She was completely non-reactive, neutral, stable naturally as a baby. I mean anything could go by and she was just chill and focused on me. A few bad experiences and she started being a bit more reactive. I was able to back up and get her back to her basics, which were stable and neutral, but I wonder if she'd have been better off had I never allowed her to have a negative experience. 

You could walk the pup at off hours and/or make a real effort to avoid close interactions with triggers. Let him grow up a bit, say get to 10-12 months and then re-evaluate and look for a competent trainer. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Stonevintage

I have a problem with my dog being dog aggressive. She first displayed this at 13 weeks. She was 40lbs and approached my friends 80lb dog barking within an inch of his face with her back legs spread ready to do who knows what....

Because, she wasn't done with her puppy shots until 15 weeks, I kept her in the yard but able to still meet and greet people thru my front yard chain link fence. I've had two puppies come down with Parvo in the past and $5,000 later learned not to let them out among other dogs until their vacs are complete. THIS is the problem with socialization suggestions.

This front yard exposure for 3/4 hours per day worked very well to socialization for all types of people but, what I didn't know is that she was "enhancing" her predisposition to not like other dogs. All seemed fine. She'd go bounding over to them wanting to play and they would do the but sniffing thing but then would turn and snarl at her.

Now, the is fine with all people - in all but violent situations. Dogs, no way - her reaction is the same as prey drive. She's silent and she wants them.

So, there's this controversy over protection until vac's are done - which is in most cases against the prime socialization age - and I can see that...

But IMO to think that isolation for any period of time until they mature and can listen and learn better - Not a good idea. I know what went wrong with mine. Who can judge temperament at 14 weeks and say "this dog will end up being DA - you need to get them integrated right away with other dogs - or this dog can be separated for a while, until they're older and can handle it....

I have regrets - I should have taken the vac risk and gotten her among other dogs before 15 weeks. But, I was so afraid of Parvo. Yes, I'm sure she had a predisposition for DA but now - it's so hard to work on and it's restricting our lives...


----------



## Stonevintage

Just a bit more on the topic. I had a conversation this afternoon with someone that has a so well trained GSD. The first week that Summer finished her shots and I was walking her around the neighborhood, I saw this man training and playing off leash with his GSD on a very busy street.

I took Summer home and walked up to this man's door and knocked and said "How to your do that"? lol I wanted all the answers...:surprise:

1.5 years later. He has accepted a plan for this fall (when I get $) to assist in training Summer specifically against DA. I told him what she knows and what she's doing and he was encouraged by the fact that I got her off the DA with the backyard fenceline thing...

Chip - you'll like this. He asked what I'd done differently that worked with the backward fence aggression and I said the timing was perfect and I wailed on her little back end with some pine fronds. It took one time - I immediately redirected to ball and now that's what she does (thanks to Mr Strom and Mr Chip).

So, he says "what do you want me to train"? "What do you want me to do with your dog? - If I take the leash what I do with your dog isn't going to be constructive because it won't carry back to you"... I said no, "I want you to train ME" and see where I'm weak and where the leaks are. He smiled and said - right answer.. then we went on to talk about correction methods. He said they absolutely have to know who's in charge and then talked about pinning... not so good, but I told him I could absolutely get into a stop everything/down and don't move so he said that is the same and all good.


----------



## selzer

Once upon a time I had a baby werewolf. I decided to keep her. I called her Quinn. And I signed her up for puppy classes. She was so little and sweet, and I loved her SOOOOO much. 

This is a true story. 

I went to the first class at 16 weeks. She barked and lunged at every dog the ENTIRE hour. I kept taking her outside, and bringing her back in. She would not settle. I tried to stay far away. Didn't work. She didn't care about me at all, it was all those other dogs. Uhg! I was NOT an amateur at this!

I did my usual the following week. Nothing. Oh, I took her to be groomed either before or after the class that week and the next week. Puppy baths are only 11.99 until they reach six months. But other than that, we did nothing. 

The following week, she barked in the beginning, and I thought, "Boy is this going to be a long set of classes." :frown2:

I took her home again. I fed her junk food in the car and the rest of the snacks I didn't feed her at doggy class. 

The next week she was fine. No barking. She did what she needed to do. Good girl. I took her to meet Woden, an uncle. And there was a another bitch there as well, and Quinn was fine with them. She was excellent in these people's house, and I couldn't believe it, because she was a little monster in mine, hence the name...

Anyway, we made it to one more of the six classes, before work and puppies and insanity drew me away. She was fine and seemed to be learning a thing or too. STAY is not her strong suit but she can walk over ladders, and step onto plat form, and wait her turn, and come front finishe left. So it wasn't a failure. 

That's it. That is the sum total of socialization the puppy got. Fast forward to 9 months. Four months have passed and the pup had been to the vet 1 time, where they sedated her and did x-rays. 

A week or so ago, I took her to a dog show -- no she wasn't entered, my bad. I wanted the professional handler that was handling Gretel (a pup of mine owned by someone else) to give his opinion of her. He was busy with another dog though when I was there and I didn't ask. My excuse was that I was going to enter her in the match at the end of Best In Show, but BIS wasn't going to be until 2PM, and I decided not to wait. 

But with tons of dogs of all different kinds there, and close quarters, she never barked at any dog, she was not stressed. I took her to the area where people were eating, and let her finish my dinner, which she enjoyed immensely. Lots of people came up and said "hi." She was very polite. Lots of dogs everywhere. Perfect. 

We got in the car and went through the DQ drivethrough, and she got a baby cone in a cup, and I got my chocolate. And then we drove to the puppy party. 

Quinn had met QT before as she was her littermate. But she had never met Miracle (1 year), Fasko and Jax (18 months), Gus 4 years, and Ruby and Nova (4 months) were never released to play with her when I owned them. Quinn had never met the people either, or the kids. But I took her off-lead when I got out of my car and just walked up to the pool where everyone was. She hung back a little, but then she was sniffing them, and they were sniffing her. She was thirsty and I found her some water. She got along with the two older girls that didn't seem to like each other. She was fine with the boys, she was fine with the puppies, and she took a dip in the pool. She never reacted to any of the dogs. 

I think sometimes we try to do too much, too fast with our pups. And sometimes we diagnose reactive behavior and try to fix it, and sometimes we do more damage than good. By everything everyone says about socializing your dog, Quinnie should be a total basket case. But she isn't. She has good temperament, good nerve -- but what happened at 16 weeks, then? What was that insanity? A fear-stage? She met my parents that day too. Big day for a puppy that goes nowhere.

I really think that a lot of times it is more our reaction or lack of reaction to their behavior that determines how long-lived a problem might be. And our experience/confidence our leadership when they are handling something unfamiliar that makes it easy or hard for them. I think we all need to relax a lot more with our puppies. Stop with the expectations so early. Stop with the eagle-eyeing them every moment looking for this behavior issue or that. Work on being calm and confident, and let them dictate the pace, within reason. 





Stonevintage said:


> I have a problem with my dog being dog aggressive. She first displayed this at 13 weeks. She was 40lbs and approached my friends 80lb dog barking within an inch of his face with her back legs spread ready to do who knows what....
> 
> Because, she wasn't done with her puppy shots until 15 weeks, I kept her in the yard but able to still meet and greet people thru my front yard chain link fence. I've had two puppies come down with Parvo in the past and $5,000 later learned not to let them out among other dogs until their vacs are complete. THIS is the problem with socialization suggestions.
> 
> This front yard exposure for 3/4 hours per day worked very well to socialization for all types of people but, what I didn't know is that she was "enhancing" her predisposition to not like other dogs. All seemed fine. She'd go bounding over to them wanting to play and they would do the but sniffing thing but then would turn and snarl at her.
> 
> Now, the is fine with all people - in all but violent situations. Dogs, no way - her reaction is the same as prey drive. She's silent and she wants them.
> 
> So, there's this controversy over protection until vac's are done - which is in most cases against the prime socialization age - and I can see that...
> 
> But IMO to think that isolation for any period of time until they mature and can listen and learn better - Not a good idea. I know what went wrong with mine. Who can judge temperament at 14 weeks and say "this dog will end up being DA - you need to get them integrated right away with other dogs - or this dog can be separated for a while, until they're older and can handle it....
> 
> I have regrets - I should have taken the vac risk and gotten her among other dogs before 15 weeks. But, I was so afraid of Parvo. Yes, I'm sure she had a predisposition for DA but now - it's so hard to work on and it's restricting our lives...


----------



## selzer

I am going to add a little to my story. One of the girls, that wasn't getting on with the younger female. 

The owners started with Positive Only training, and were taking her to Doggy Daycare a few times a week. The pup was biting them. The pup was barking like crazy mad at the neighbors. Ok at the doggy daycare. Ok. She would jump up on the kitchen table and to get her to come off they were luring her and dropping treats. -- I BELIEVE in positive training methods, but this sounded totally nuts. It was bad training. They admit it. The people training them to train this way was a charlatan. 

So, my friend who hosted the puppy party, she sent her trainer over there and after a few sessions they made a lot of headway. Good. But they are doing it with an e-collar. About a month ago, I was there with Ruby, Ramona, and Rhoda -- no room for Quinnie. And there was Jax and Fasko and QT, and Quincy, and Gus, and Miracle and it was just crazy. The woman had her e-collar on her. The dog was in the midst of the young GSDs and she called her. She was 11 months old and playing, but I guess she called her twice and the dog did not come so she Zapped her. I saw the dog visibly flinch and then go to her owner. I bit my tongue. Oh I said something, but I did not say what I was thinking. She gave the pup a command she did not have a prayer of following, and then punished her with and e-collar in the middle of a group of dogs she really didn't know, not all of them. 

And people wonder why I don't like e-collars. I would rather my dog get run over by a Mack truck then to have her come to me out of fear of punishment. 

And a month later, the dog that is being reactive is the one sporting an e-collar. Maybe she isn't wired the same as the other dogs. Maybe. The bitches that bark at her, she reacts toward. The bitches that are submissive toward her, she sniffs and is ok with -- this isn't true dog aggression. This could be, a beta-bitch wanting to move up the ladder. It could also be a bitch that is insecure (what I think) around dominant bitches, and aggresses to try to ward them away. Where the bitches that give calming, submissive signals she is fine with. 

These dogs are super, SUPER people oriented. They know where their people are if they are even when they are playing in a group of dogs. All her person needed to do was put some distance between her and the group of dogs, and her dog would have broken away from them and went to her, and then she could have put a lead on her or whatever she wanted to do. Ah well. Hindsight is 20/20. I think they think she is a dominant female. She isn't. I think she is afraid of dominant females. I think the other dog, QT is a dominant female. 

I love bitches. I study bitches. It is so easy for people to misdiagnose and misread bitches. I think the e-collar is making things worse. I think they can use it and have gotten some improvement, but I think they would do better to avoid using it around other dogs. They are relying on it to be able to control the dog. Especially in situations that can escalate quickly. They have been burned by positive training, and don't believe it can work for their girl at all. I don't believe their dog is dog aggressive. I have seen too much to the contrary. But, I do think she is more reactive than she needs to be.


----------



## Stonevintage

Thank you for both your posts Selzer. What I see is similar stories and developments with my dogs when I had in the past when I had wheels. 

When ever I go outside of walking distance has to be had by a Taxi. So, I'm income restricted right now (for the next 7 months) and so we have gone nowhere.

I stopped walking Summer about 7 weeks ago when everyone got into an uproar here about my taking her to the outdoor cafe and she had a problem with another dog. She has not been out of the yard since - because you guys influence my thinking and I thought - you're right. I may wreck someones evening if my dog barks and so I resigned her to be a backyard dog.

This is what I have learned here. I can't help my situation right now but am embarrassed I tried with the best I had at the end of the block at the outdoor cafe. That's why I have been posting about ideas for the best backyard exercise/games. Because it's likely Summer is never going to leave this yard again.


----------



## selzer

You sound depressed. It also sounds like the situation is somewhat temporary. Seven weeks is like boot camp. It isn't forever. An outdoor café is not a place for a dog with behavioral issues. Maybe the back yard is best for now. But let's not talk rest of her life at this point. Of course, have you considered whether she wouldn't mind staying at home for the rest of her life? Because I have a dog that is a home-body -- that is what she is familiar with, and she would be perfectly happy to stay there forever. 

Sometimes, we have to consider how much what we want for our dog actually matches the dog's individual personality.


----------



## Chip18

David Winners said:


> Most K9 trainers, not handlers, have decades working through aggression issues with high drive dogs. Yes, sometimes mistakes happen. Trainers and handlers are people too. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you have a chance to work with a professional trainer used to working through problems with working dogs, I would encourage to at least meet with the trainer and discuss your issues.
> 
> A 9mo dog is NOT a K9 unit. It's a high drive puppy in training. I could go on about threshold training and why it is totally different for a patrol dog in training than a pet, but it's not relevant.
> 
> There are some problems with working with a slip lead compared to a prong. Nothing that can't be worked around, but I generally suggest a prong with a nylon slip collar.
> 
> ETA: I wouldn't suggest you use either on a 5 month old puppy.


LOL ... yess ..."SLL" if people don't "feel" they can use one "properly" then don't. 

Go with the numbers ... the vast majority of "trainers" that deal with serious dogs ..."all use" either a "Prong Collar" and/or an "E-Collar" ... numbers don't lie. The only thing I advocate is that owners use a "real tool" and that would be one of those mentioned.

I seriously doubt that in this country?? Anyone can even find a trainer that uses a SLL??? Only"Trainer I am aware of is the one in my "Boxer" thread?? Other that "information" on SLL is pretty hard to find?? Which strikes me as kinda odd since "Prong and E-Collars" are banned in parts of Europe??? 

But ... I say if I can do it anyone can and I started with the first clip here ... Flat Leash and Buckle Collar. :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

If one can properly walk a dog with a Flat leash and regular collar a "SLL" is no big deal. I did it and I'm not that special. But that aside ... I do rescue work and good luck to anyone that "thinks" those guys will let you put a "Prong Collar" let alone a "E-Collar" on one of there dogs!! Apparently even some of the "Pro's" did not know you could use a SLL as a DDC ... if required ... I never had but I could ... FB thing. A trainer needed to use a "tool" and they only one she knew of "Prong and E-Collars" that shelter said ..."NO!" But by contrast ... they will "hand you" a SLL, ... it's just a fancy leash to them ... to those like me ... not so much. 

I've only had one dog that did not get with the program inside of oh ... 4 minuets or less??? A "Pitty" kinda small in stature but he had a huge freaking head!! He actually did the Set/Stop and I'am not gonna move thing (Conversational Leash, work got him moving) and when that did not work, the stop and sit! He did the rear up on the rear legs thing??? Kinda cool ... we got over that and then he proceeded to do the darting across in front of me thing?? But ... it was just a short impromptu session, the owner was good with being dragged around ... whatever. 


My first use of a SLL was at rescue, they handed the SLL to me! They "claimed" the dog pulled and had "Fear of people issues," no problem. Less than two minuets and an outside observer would see "nothing happening" and that dog (Boxer) walked as well on leash as my "Struddell" which is high praise indeed. 

I only saw the fear of people thing once, with him. When someone asked to pet him I would stop 5 feet away and talk ... the dog would stand calmly by my side and we then move on. Huh ... no big deal I'm not seeing an issue here with this dog??? 

And then when we stropped again and I answered questions, this time ... the person asked to pet him??? As I thought it over, the person stepped forward ... (inside of my arbitrary five foot zone) the dog pressed up against me and I looked down and his eyes were big as saucers??? My hand went out "Stop ... sorry no he's in training" and off we went ... no big deal, he was a nice dog, walked as well on leash as any of mine!

I gave the dog and "SLL" back to the owner at the end of the day ... and ... sure enough away he went "dragging" his owner behind him. 

And then there was "Deer Dog" ... that one ...even I was stunned!! But that's another story ... at any rate, all I do is relate my experiance and put information out there ... people are free to do with it as they see fit. As I am want to say ... there is always gonna be "that guy."


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Chip - you'll like this. He asked what I'd done differently that worked with the backward fence aggression and I said the timing was perfect and I wailed on her little back end with some pine fronds. It took one time - I immediately redirected to ball and now that's what she does (thanks to Mr Strom and Mr Chip).


LOL well yes ...direct action and you delivered an " aversive!" Make better choices dog! The tree branches is pretty unique! So thus far for direction action we have ... of course the "Bonker" officially a towel bound with rubber bands that you throw at the dog, I say a rolled up pair of socks will suffice, and a "pail" thrown in the vicinity of dogs to stop crap and now tree branches. 

That is pretty creative! I'd have most likely recommend an E-Collar or for those with good aim a "Bonker!" To use a tree branch ... you'd have to close the gap! And it seems you were able to do that! That is pretty impressive ... job well done!

I got more but I don't want the congrads to get lost.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you for both your posts Selzer. What I see is similar stories and developments with my dogs when I had in the past when I had wheels.
> 
> When ever I go outside of walking distance has to be had by a Taxi. So, I'm income restricted right now (for the next 7 months) and so we have gone nowhere.
> 
> I stopped walking Summer about 7 weeks ago when everyone got into an uproar here about my taking her to the outdoor cafe and she had a problem with another dog. She has not been out of the yard since - because you guys influence my thinking and I thought - you're right. I may wreck someones evening if my dog barks and so I resigned her to be a backyard dog.
> 
> This is what I have learned here. I can't help my situation right now but am embarrassed I tried with the best I had at the end of the block at the outdoor cafe. That's why I have been posting about ideas for the best backyard exercise/games. Because it's likely Summer is never going to leave this yard again.


OK ... we did that?? Well ... that sucks!! I don't think it's anyone's goal here to brow beat folks into doing nothing??? 

Rest assure dogs fence fighting is a big deal! And a lot of owners have no idea how to stop and they just write it off as "no big deal??" Yeah that will have "Blow Back" for them down the road!

But "you" stopped it by "thinking outside the box!" Which proves in essence that you "know" how to take charge! Is you don't have a full understanding of why that worked beyond the "obvious" ie I hit the dog with the branch and the dog stopped the behavior! Yes that is "obviously" a part of it but not the whole of it. 

The key thing is your attitude!! The branch was just a "tool" and not a very practical one I will add ... but it worked for that!

So ... you've actually demonstrated that you know how to correct a behavior but now your stuck because you "assume" that well everyone knows more than I do?? Hence the "usual" find a trainer advise ... that works fine for some ... perhaps most but there are "some" that can fix there dogs themselves! So I tend to go on and ad nauseam for the fives of people out there can DIY there dog themselves uh ... kinda like this!.  

*Reality not withstanding *when I had my "people issues" with "Rocky" my basic "assumption" was that "No One" is better qualified to fix my dogs "issues" than "Me!" 

I just needed to find out how??? Baseline ... no one gets bit! Beyond that, I said ... well do "Pro's" who work with dogs with serious freaking issues do??? 

That question automatically wiped all the crap "Trainers off the table!" And the first thing I found was "leerburgh" and "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" granted it was not exactly a H/A dog rehab program and it was actually what I did anyway! I just put a spin on it ... instead of saying "Yes" please Pet, I said "NO!" 

I have never once had to correct "Rocky" for going after anyone. His job was to stand calmly behind me or beside me ... and he was good at his job. So yeah great for me but not of much value to you??? 

Well ... actually it's great for you also. I already did the leg work ups to JQP to find value in it! 

To start ... start listening to Jeff and Sean they are youtube weekly and Jeff is on "periscope live" uh all the time! 






And Sean O'Shea Shea uses to much stuff for my taste but I listen to him all the time.

Jeff was on Sean's show here worth listening to ...





And pretty much any questions you would ask ... some one else already has. 

OK ... all this said ... what would I do, well by and large ... you most likely know. If a dog is not engaging in a behavior that will get them killed or casue injury to others ... I prefer to "flank the dog." 

Instead of fighting with a behavior you don't want ... train a behavior you do want ... and that would be sigh ...yet again ... train the "Place Command!" Once you've trained a solid "Place Command" you can "correct your dog for breaking "Place!" She will understand that, it would be your job to keep other dogs out of her face ... or at least "I" would. 

And if you think about it what your dog be doing at the coffee shop?? I don't know but I'm thinking most likely ... she would be in "place??"

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And this is not of much value if your not going anywhere?? And I do understand that you seem to be in a high roving dog area nonetheless at least for "informational purposes" have a look here:

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Just my two cents ... OK well maybe a quarter. :wink2:


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> I may try an SSL then  i agree with you about k9 behaving badly,but it may be my last resort as i'm really struggling to find a trainer i trust /reputable in my area. for the while though i'm following advice and managing behaviour. Today i tried a muzzle on my guy for the first time, he wasn't happy. i've been training him into it for a week with treats etc so he doesn't hate it. i only put it on him properly for the first time today, and unfortunately it's a little big for him.
> 
> I wanted to check out a nearby park/river that we haven't been to yet, unfortunately 2mins of the journey is crossing through a busy town centre which can't be avoided, no matter the time of day. vader was really good, somewhat scared but i kept it a game with him to distract. he didn't bark at anyone today other than a man who was cycling past and paid him attention. he only seems to bark if someone pays him attention, eye contact/talk to him etc. if i say hey to someone while passing he's simply aloof.
> 
> So i just made sure to keep out of touching distance because we were inevitably going to see people today, even by the quiet river area. I used his collar too. was a really fun day. Vader dragged me down a swamp and got us all covered in mud and nettle stings!!
> 
> I posted pics of him at the start of my thread, though maybe it didn't work properly. let me know if it worked. (the one where he's all muddy i took today, the other one about a week ago)


That's the monster!! LOL no wonder people want to pet him!!

Well I'll stand with the "Keep People" out of his thing. But I will admit with that face .. it's gonna put more of the burden on you! You have to learn to just say "NO!" Don't give them opportunity ... body language kinda thing, I stepped in front of Rocky if someone stepped forward towards him ... ie "don't even ask" most of the time I need never say a word. 

You keep people out of his face for awhile ... show him how you expect him to behave and when/if he will tolerate being pet you will be able to see it on his face. 

He'll have a kind of bored whatever look on his face. I can't say how long that takes as I paid no attention to the time when I was doing it with "Rocky."


----------



## Dunkirk

Stonevintage said:


> Just a bit more on the topic. I had a conversation this afternoon with someone that has a so well trained GSD. The first week that Summer finished her shots and I was walking her around the neighborhood, I saw this man training and playing off leash with his GSD on a very busy street.
> 
> I took Summer home and walked up to this man's door and knocked and said "How to your do that"? lol I wanted all the answers...:surprise:
> 
> 1.5 years later. He has accepted a plan for this fall (when I get $) to assist in training Summer specifically against DA. I told him what she knows and what she's doing and he was encouraged by the fact that I got her off the DA with the backyard fenceline thing...
> 
> Chip - you'll like this. He asked what I'd done differently that worked with the backward fence aggression and I said the timing was perfect and I wailed on her little back end with some pine fronds. It took one time - I immediately redirected to ball and now that's what she does (thanks to Mr Strom and Mr Chip).
> 
> So, he says "what do you want me to train"? "What do you want me to do with your dog? - If I take the leash what I do with your dog isn't going to be constructive because it won't carry back to you"... I said no, "I want you to train ME" and see where I'm weak and where the leaks are. He smiled and said - right answer.. then we went on to talk about correction methods. He said they absolutely have to know who's in charge and then talked about pinning... not so good, but I told him I could absolutely get into a stop everything/down and don't move so he said that is the same and all good.



Have you ever filmed yourself working with Summer? If you can set up your phone or computer to record, you may see stuff you're doing that you aren't aware of.


----------



## Chai

Muskeg said:


> *For an inexperienced handler, sometimes good faith efforts to socialize a young pup actually backfire. So that those experiences makes a pup more reactive or aggressive as he matures*. If he'd never had those negative experiences as a pup, but been allowed to grow up fairly "unscathed" he may never developed bad behaviors as an adult. Sometimes IPO competitors raise a pup in a similar way, so that the pups never "loses" and develops great confidence.
> 
> I actually have seen some of this with one of my pups. She was completely non-reactive, neutral, stable naturally as a baby. I mean anything could go by and she was just chill and focused on me. A few bad experiences and she started being a bit more reactive.* I was able to back up and get her back to her basics, which were stable and neutral*, but I wonder if she'd have been better off had I never allowed her to have a negative experience.


I think the inexperienced handler you describe here is pretty much me, I definitely caused the reactivity in Tchai  I took the natural advantage I had in his genetics and pooped on it. The scary thing is, I actually thought I was doing the right thing. Perhaps if I had your skill and experience I could have repaired the damage, but alas, I am but a noob.

There's so much I know now that I wish I knew back then. So many things I would have done differently. 

To the OP, you have a very young dog and a lot of great people and advice on here. You'll get through it if you continue to show such great interest and dedication


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> That's the monster!! LOL no wonder people want to pet him!!
> 
> Well I'll stand with the "Keep People" out of his thing. But I will admit with that face .. it's gonna put more of the burden on you! You have to learn to just say "NO!" Don't give them opportunity ... body language kinda thing, I stepped in front of Rocky if someone stepped forward towards him ... ie "don't even ask" most of the time I need never say a word.
> 
> You keep people out of his face for awhile ... show him how you expect him to behave and when/if he will tolerate being pet you will be able to see it on his face.
> 
> He'll have a kind of bored whatever look on his face. I can't say how long that takes as I paid no attention to the time when I was doing it with "Rocky."


Thank you  today i had several people ask if they could pet him. I stepped between him and them and very firmly said No,he's people reactive. it's surprising how much people don't understand. "he doesn 't like people...why is he letting you stroke him then?" -_- i kept at a distance though in which Vader was comfortable and where no one could touch him.


----------



## xWolf

Muskeg said:


> I got advice from a trainer of working dogs once to just "put a dog up" when he is acting out as a pup. By this she meant to not expose the dog to triggers (people, bike, dogs etc) until he matured some. Apparently, that worked for her. After the dog matured a bit, two things happened- he was calmer and not excited by the activity, and since he was older, training was more straight forward.
> 
> It may be next to impossible living in a city, but it is worth considering. For an inexperienced handler, sometimes good faith efforts to socialize a young pup actually backfire. So that those experiences makes a pup more reactive or aggressive as he matures. If he'd never had those negative experiences as a pup, but been allowed to grow up fairly "unscathed" he may never developed bad behaviors as an adult. Sometimes IPO competitors raise a pup in a similar way, so that the pups never "loses" and develops great confidence.
> 
> I actually have seen some of this with one of my pups. She was completely non-reactive, neutral, stable naturally as a baby. I mean anything could go by and she was just chill and focused on me. A few bad experiences and she started being a bit more reactive. I was able to back up and get her back to her basics, which were stable and neutral, but I wonder if she'd have been better off had I never allowed her to have a negative experience.
> 
> You could walk the pup at off hours and/or make a real effort to avoid close interactions with triggers. Let him grow up a bit, say get to 10-12 months and then re-evaluate and look for a competent trainer.
> 
> Just a thought.


I'll think about doing this, i'm definitely taking him out and about at non-peak time and avoiding triggers. living in a city there is always someone about,though. i have been just sitting and watching people go by in the distance, people watching with him at a distance he is comfortable with.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> Thank you  today i had several people ask if they could pet him. I stepped between him and them and very firmly said No,he's people reactive. it's surprising how much people don't understand. "he doesn 't like people...why is he letting you stroke him then?" -_- i kept at a distance though in which Vader was comfortable and where no one could touch him.


While you are standing in front of your dog explaining to a stranger that you don't want anybody to pet him, what happens if somebody, or a dog, approaches from behind or the side out of your view? Do you think your dog might bite them?

By stepping in front of your dog every time a non threatening, friendly person approaches to pet him, what message do you think you are sending to your dog?


----------



## David Winners

IMO, a SLL or DDC have their places. Such as an aggressive dog that you may have to hang to protect yourself, as a backup for a prong that may come apart at an inopportune moment or as a quick leash to use between the car and house, or to get a dog out of a kennel. There is so much more feedback / communication you can offer the dog with a prong or e-collar. That's why you see sport trainers using these tools. Instant clear communication. You don't have that with a SLL. There is also much less chance of physical damage to the dog with a prong or e-collar.

Yes, you can keep a slip lead high on the neck and get some sensitivity with it, but nothing like a prong. Watch Tyler Muto with a new dog on a prong and tell me you can do that with a SLL. It's not going to happen, especially with a dog in drive.


The tools are far less important than the timing and level of a reward/ correction. I use whatever is handy. Finger poke, leash, foot, door, whatever the situation provides. The dog understanding the correction is far more important that the method with which it is applied. The value and timing of the reward / mark play into the learning process just as importantly. It's all a balance between relationship, communication, consistency and observation. 

Sorry to side track on equipment. It seems to happen a lot, and it's not necessary. Pick a tool and learn to use it well in a way that benefits you and the dog and you will be successful.


----------



## Stonevintage

Dunkirk said:


> Have you ever filmed yourself working with Summer? If you can set up your phone or computer to record, you may see stuff you're doing that you aren't aware of.


I haven't done that but that's a great idea. Now is a great time because I'm just starting to train her in the yard on a short leash. Thanks!


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> Thank you  today i had several people ask if they could pet him. I stepped between him and them and very firmly said No,he's people reactive. it's surprising how much people don't understand. "he doesn 't like people...why is he letting you stroke him then?" -_- i kept at a distance though in which Vader was comfortable and where no one could touch him.


How are you running into so many ignorant people? An owner should be able to touch their own dog. Anyone who asks that doesn't know a thing about dogs. I noticed if I move away from people, they don't get near a German Shepherd. They assume by my body language that they shouldn't get near the dog. You might have a friendly face or look approachable.


----------



## Chip18

Aww gezz is this a 
.









Thing ...sigh, I could on and on as to why ... do this and I have in the past. And apparently people "assume" the body block is a lifetime thing?? It is not ..but you have to start somewhere. I could go on about how I don't care if a dog has an undisclosed bite history, because under my watch .. "That dog will not be given the opportunity to make a "Poor Choice!" 

Instead I'll follow my own advise "KISS" and ask a simple question that the "OP" won't have to struggle to answer ... "xWolf" when you had to block that member of JQP .. who would not accept "NO" for an answer ... "What did you dog do??"


----------



## Niexist

I really hate people randomly coming up and touching my dog. I was walking her to the corner store to grab something, and went in and some drunk guy came out while my fiancee had her and pinched her nose like it was okay. Since then when people start walking up, or ask to pet her I simply tell them, "No she bites. Please stay back". Of course she's the sweetest thing since sugar so loves everyone but I just prefer not to have random strangers touching on my dog.


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> Aww gezz is this a
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thing ...sigh, I could on and on as to why ... do this and I have in the past. And apparently people "assume" the body block is a lifetime thing?? It is not ..but you have to start somewhere. I could go on about how I don't care if a dog has an undisclosed bite history, because under my watch .. "That dog will not be given the opportunity to make a "Poor Choice!"
> 
> Instead I'll follow my own advise "KISS" and ask a simple question that the "OP" won't have to struggle to answer ... "xWolf" when you had to block that member of JQP .. who would not accept "NO" for an answer ... "What did you dog do??"


Today Vader's body language was much more comfortable. the 'body block'as you call it meant that he didn't have eye contact with said person, and they couldn't reach out to stroke him . Since i had a confident He's comfortable, even slightly curious with people until they pay HIM attention/eye contact/put their hand in his face which is why i've been avoiding people, but inevitably even at off-peak times we're gonna run into someone; i live in a busy city area. today he didn't bark nor growl at anyone until we got home and the neighbour was also getting home. this was his 'dominant barking', as i call the thinks the street is 'his' territory so barks at anyone who comes by.


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> While you are standing in front of your dog explaining to a stranger that you don't want anybody to pet him, what happens if somebody, or a dog, approaches from behind or the side out of your view? Do you think your dog might bite them?
> 
> By stepping in front of your dog every time a non threatening, friendly person approaches to pet him, what message do you think you are sending to your dog?


I'm very aware of my surroundings and been keeping my dog on a short leash around people. If someone was to approach from behind i would make sure to distance between them and my dog. vader is typically comfortable of people nearby, if a little wary. it is only when approached directly/recieving attention that he becomes 'unpredictable'. as already stated, i've been avoiding areas with people as much as possible but where i live it is inevitable that people are going to cross our paths, no matter the time of day. To add, i'd rather step in front and prevent them getting bitten, not to say i do it in a hostile way: i just simply make it clear that he cannot be approached by my body language, whilst keeping things calm for Vader's sake.


----------



## xWolf

LuvShepherds said:


> How are you running into so many ignorant people? An owner should be able to touch their own dog. Anyone who asks that doesn't know a thing about dogs. I noticed if I move away from people, they don't get near a German Shepherd. They assume by my body language that they shouldn't get near the dog. You might have a friendly face or look approachable.


I have what some might call 'resting bitch face' . So no, by all means not approachable. i think it's Vader that looks more so approachable, haha


----------



## LuvShepherds

xWolf said:


> I have what some might call 'resting bitch face' . So no, by all means not approachable. i think it's Vader that looks more so approachable, haha


LOL. My HA rescue looked very soft so people wanted to touch him. I never understood that. Soft fur didn't mean he wanted a hug from a stranger.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> I'm very aware of my surroundings and been keeping my dog on a short leash around people. If someone was to approach from behind i would make sure to distance between them and my dog. vader is typically comfortable of people nearby, if a little wary. it is only when approached directly/recieving attention that he becomes 'unpredictable'. as already stated, i've been avoiding areas with people as much as possible but where i live it is inevitable that people are going to cross our paths, no matter the time of day. To add, i'd rather step in front and prevent them getting bitten, not to say i do it in a hostile way: i just simply make it clear that he cannot be approached by my body language, whilst keeping things calm for Vader's sake.


That was not my question at all. I asked what would happen while you were busy blocking/ stepping in front of a person AND somebody else approached from behind so you are dealing with TWO people approaching your dog? Would / could your dog be in a position to bite a person?

When you body block all these friendly/non threatening people, is your dog perceiving your actions as being calm or as a reason for alarm or something else?


----------



## Steve Strom

xWolf said:


> I have what some might call 'resting bitch face' . So no, by all means not approachable. i think it's Vader that looks more so approachable, haha


See if this makes it a little easier. The tension I think MAWL is referencing in part from you using that face and stepping in to block things cues things in your dog.

Instead of that, maybe just politely say to them "Please ignore him. We're working on something very hard and I need him to be a little indifferent to people" Less confrontational and makes it sound to the people who think they know more then you, that you know what you're talking about.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> See if this makes it a little easier. The tension I think MAWL is referencing in part from you using that face and stepping in to block things cues things in your dog.
> 
> Instead of that, maybe just politely say to them "Please ignore him. We're working on something very hard and I need him to be a little indifferent to people" Less confrontational and makes it sound to the people who think they know more then you, that you know what you're talking about.


Right now OP has a problem with a human, dog and especially child aggressive dog and since this thread started, the dog now has a bite history.

When you have an untrained, aggressive, unmuzzled dog that will bite and you are out in public, management and control is key. Focusing one's attention on a person that might want to pet one's dog takes that focus off of the dog and can result in a loss of control and management. I am not saying don't be aware of the environment, but I am saying you can't control everything around you. One needs to control what they can, and that is the dog.

By repeatedly stepping in front of the dog when there is a person approaching that might stare it in the eye or try to have contact, the dog is learning to take body blocking as a cue to this situation and body blocking can create what one is trying to avoid.


----------



## voodoolamb

Actually... has anyone brought up getting this dog a nice basket muzzle??? I haven't read the past few pages... 

With a basket muzzle, the pup can breathe freely, drink, and take treats. 

Nobody comes up and wants to pet a dog with a hannibal lecter mask. No worries about sending the dog any wrong messages by body blocking and telling off friendly strangers.

Dog can't bite while muzzled so owner stress goes waaaaay down.

When the time comes and you are ready to work closer to people - it's usually not too hard to find dog savvy ones. I once threw a couple bbqs in a park and invited a bunch of people from training groups in the area to help a dog with people issues. The response was great. They got free food, hung out with like minded people and they felt great about helping out a dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Actually... has anyone brought up getting this dog a nice basket muzzle??? I haven't read the past few pages...
> 
> With a basket muzzle, the pup can breathe freely, drink, and take treats.
> 
> Nobody comes up and wants to pet a dog with a hannibal lecter mask. No worries about sending the dog any wrong messages by body blocking and telling off friendly strangers.
> 
> *Dog can't bite while muzzled so owner stress goes waaaaay down.*
> 
> When the time comes and you are ready to work closer to people - it's usually not too hard to find dog savvy ones. I once threw a couple bbqs in a park and invited a bunch of people from training groups in the area to help a dog with people issues. The response was great. They got free food, hung out with like minded people and they felt great about helping out a dog.


The bolded, the dog will pick up on the owner's stress and once again, be cued to behave badly.


----------



## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, the dog will pick up on the owner's stress and once again, be cued to behave badly.


I guess it depends on why the dog is behaving the way they are behaving. Sometimes the owner's stress ups the dog's sensitivity to every external thing and creates reactive behavior. Trainers say, "Keep the lead loose!" And you are sitting there with a death grip on your dog, knowing that if you loosen it someone is going to get eaten. To the less than confident dog, who lacks confidence in you, this tension creates bad/seemingly unpredictable behavior.

With the owner no longer concerned about the dog biting, the stress level recedes and the animal may take that to mean he or she can reduce their hyper-vigilent attitude. My Susie isn't worried, I don't need to be worried. All is right with the world. They can focus on how much they hate this buckle thing all over their face and how to rub it off.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> I guess it depends on why the dog is behaving the way they are behaving. Sometimes the owner's stress ups the dog's sensitivity to every external thing and creates reactive behavior. Trainers say, "Keep the lead loose!" And you are sitting there with a death grip on your dog, knowing that if you loosen it someone is going to get eaten. To the less than confident dog, who lacks confidence in you, this tension creates bad/seemingly unpredictable behavior.
> 
> With the owner no longer concerned about the dog biting, the stress level recedes and the animal may take that to mean he or she can reduce their hyper-vigilent attitude. My Susie isn't worried, I don't need to be worried. All is right with the world. They can focus on how much they hate this buckle thing all over their face and how to rub it off.


Well, in this case it is because the dog has aggression issues with people.... and dogs... and especially children... and people that stare or make eye contact... and so on... and this dog has recently bitten somebody, so yes, I think adding owner stress can only lead to fueling the fire.


----------



## xWolf

Steve Strom said:


> See if this makes it a little easier. The tension I think MAWL is referencing in part from you using that face and stepping in to block things cues things in your dog.
> 
> Instead of that, maybe just politely say to them "Please ignore him. We're working on something very hard and I need him to be a little indifferent to people" Less confrontational and makes it sound to the people who think they know more then you, that you know what you're talking about.


Oh, you misunderstood. I just meant i have 'that face' in general, not for this specific situation. In every day life, i'm generally not an 'approachable' looking person. For this situation, i politely explain to them, in a similar manner as you said. i'm not hostile in my attitude towards them. Just straight to the point explaining that i have a reactive dog. If they then step up and continue to come towards, then i become more firm and step in front. I always keep Vader at a distance that they can't approach


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, the dog will pick up on the owner's stress and once again, be cued to behave badly.


I'm not sure why you think i'd be more stressed had he had a muzzle on? I'd be calmer if he was muzzled, no?


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That was not my question at all. I asked what would happen while you were busy blocking/ stepping in front of a person AND somebody else approached from behind so you are dealing with TWO people approaching your dog? Would / could your dog be in a position to bite a person?
> 
> When you body block all these friendly/non threatening people, is your dog perceiving your actions as being calm or as a reason for alarm or something else?


I never put my situation where there are people behind. if i see someone in the distance, for example, and i'm passing by someone else, i make sure to be at a completely safe distance for both the person and Vader. To answer your question though, IF the situation did ever arise, yes, my dog COULD be in a position to bite a person. But like i said,it's inevitable that we are going to pass people at some point. So what would you suggest i do instead? You don't agree with body blocking, so what would you suggest i do if a situation did arise? sure, saying 'please don't pet my dog ' is another way to prevent a reaction, but as you said earlier that doesn't always resonate with people.


----------



## David Winners

ID Collar W/ 2 ID Panels-Elite K-9

Do Not Pet-Elite K-9

I use these.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> I'm not sure why you think i'd be more stressed had he had a muzzle on? I'd be calmer if he was muzzled, no?


I never said that a muzzle would increase your stress level. I agreed with others who suggested that it might be a good idea for the time being. 

I said the stress on your part by seeing a possible person that might want to approach your dog, and then feeling compelled to hurry and body block your dog, will feed down to the dog. That coupled with the dog learning to take your body blocking as a cue to your stress and a signal that a stranger that is upsetting the both of you is approaching, may in effect enhance and create what you are trying to avoid.


----------



## voodoolamb

> The use of a muzzle has been an important tool in behavior modification if a dog is reactive. The muzzle allows you to be safe as you work around other dogs, or around people. Work with an experienced trainer, of course. If something goes wrong or if a boundary is crossed unknowingly, the muzzle will prevent your dog from biting, giving you peace of mind in a training class or similar situation


Muzzles—Not Just for Aggression Anymore! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
Muzzles?Not Just for Aggression Anymore! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Good link that describes how to fit, pick and train a dog to wear a muzzle.


----------



## Chip18

So .... now the owner is "freaked out" and has a "Death Grip on the muzzle???" Says "who" someone could "ask" the OP?? But ... nope people and lecture on why ... well because I don't do it ... "that can't work??" 

Pretty much a text book example of why when I had problems with my dog's "Clear and Present Danger" behavior with JQP ... I did not seek "feedback." "Apparently" the ability to "body block a dogs view?? Is some kind of an alien and Radical concept??? Well ... decades ago so was "KMODT." Pretty sure he heard plenty of "well that can't work" and "this is why." If one does not "like" the approach fine "explain" why, and the "OP" can "make there choices." 

But for what is the subject of "debate" here ... "your" not the first and most likely neither was I??? But .... even with "me!" I am a state of "Missouri" kinda guy:












Paws on the ground ... "body block" is what I did/do with "every dog" I ... work with, works out fine. People throw out the but dog can't see them bit, all the time. OK fine, I'll go with it. So I guess that means by "extrapolation" that dog's that can't see a "subject" ... don't know they are there??? So ... exactly how does that work ... either a dog needs to see a "subject" or he does not. But it's a rhetorical question ... don't really care, I'd luv to see someone convince that what "I did" did not work??? 

And the "Please" thing with JQP, that does not appear to understand that the "US constitution" does not include the "Right" to interact with someone else's dog. Well hey I'm a reasonable kinda guy??? So for "me" it would be more like "Please Don't Pet my dog or ... "we will have a serious freaking problem here!!!" If I have to say that?? The ... freaking fuse is lit!!! 

So ... back on pointe .... a muzzle ... well we have a "Bubble Dog" here, a dog that may need a muzzle to be safe in public. I used one for awhile myself ... but things I did not at the time, ... a muzzle can help you and the dog relax. The dog is less inclined to act like a fool and the owner is more relaxed because they have a "back up." And the muzzle need not be for life, once your dog better understands "you have his back" the muzzle my no longer be necessary. 

Muzzle on ... does not mean "Interaction" the job is still the same for the dog ...stand there and do "nothing." The job is still Keep people out of his face. Once he fully trust that you will keep people out of his face ... you will "see that" and can drop the muzzle. The dog should look the same way with the muzzle on or off. If you stand and talk to people he should be calm and not really care one way or the other.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

xWolf said:


> I never put my situation where there are people behind. if i see someone in the distance, for example, and i'm passing by someone else, i make sure to be at a completely safe distance for both the person and Vader. To answer your question though, IF the situation did ever arise, yes, my dog COULD be in a position to bite a person. But like i said,it's inevitable that we are going to pass people at some point. So what would you suggest i do instead? You don't agree with body blocking, so what would you suggest i do if a situation did arise? sure, saying 'please don't pet my dog ' is another way to prevent a reaction, but as you said earlier that doesn't always resonate with people.


The only thing you can control are you and your dog. 

You have been given lots of good advice by people experienced with the breed and aggression. I understand trainers can be hard to come by depending on where you live. I live in the city too and I know how tight things can be. As has been suggested, this dog needs some obedience put on it. You need to start somewhere with few distractions and work your way up. In the meantime a muzzle is a good idea when you take him around people. 

You also need to work on what you can control. You need to remove your dog when you feel uncomfortable. Calmly stepping off the curb and having your dog sit and focus can speak volumes to somebody wanting to see the nice doggy and is far less stressful to you and your dog, and you don't have to argue with a stranger to not pet your dog or throw yourself in between them and your dog. It doesn't have to be as hard and combative as other people try to make it.


----------



## Steve Strom

xWolf said:


> Oh, you misunderstood. I just meant i have 'that face' in general, not for this specific situation. In every day life, i'm generally not an 'approachable' looking person. For this situation, i politely explain to them, in a similar manner as you said. i'm not hostile in my attitude towards them. Just straight to the point explaining that i have a reactive dog. If they then step up and continue to come towards, then i become more firm and step in front. I always keep Vader at a distance that they can't approach


I understand. What I think you may be running into is that guy with a chip on his shoulder that's determined to convince you he knows better when you describe your dog and tell them he's not ok to pet.

If you answer with a firm plan of training something, that can be more effective at keeping them at bay.


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> Oh, you misunderstood. *I just meant i have 'that face' in general, not for this specific situation. In every day life, i'm generally not an 'approachable' looking person. *For this situation, i politely explain to them, in a similar manner as you said. i'm not hostile in my attitude towards them. Just straight to the point explaining that i have a reactive dog. If they then step up and continue to come towards, then i become more firm and step in front. I always keep Vader at a distance that they can't approach


Can I just interject on this point? I, too, have that face. I didn't realize how much it was affecting my dog until my breeder said something about not to be angry with my dog for a certain reason. Angry? I'm not angry. I'm just standing here. What are you talking about? Well you look angry and your dog thinks your angry. 

BUT dogs READ your BODY! Some of this reactivity could be your dog reading your face and assuming he needs to react to people. The slightest tension on the leash? They feel it. There are studies out there that show dogs react differently to a smile vs a frown.

Don't stop. Don't ever just stop. Keep moving. Nope! Sorry! Can't pet my dog! Got to go! Thanks anyways!

Keep all that in mind and think about what your body is saying to your dog.


----------



## selzer

Jax08 said:


> Can I just interject on this point? I, too, have that face. I didn't realize how much it was affecting my dog until my breeder said something about not to be angry with my dog for a certain reason. Angry? I'm not angry. I'm just standing here. What are you talking about? Well you look angry and your dog thinks your angry.
> 
> BUT dogs READ your BODY! Some of this reactivity could be your dog reading your face and assuming he needs to react to people. The slightest tension on the leash? They feel it. There are studies out there that show dogs react differently to a smile vs a frown.
> 
> Don't stop. Don't ever just stop. Keep moving. Nope! Sorry! Can't pet my dog! Got to go! Thanks anyways!
> 
> Keep all that in mind and think about what your body is saying to your dog.


This is so true. 

I found this out when trying to get the CD on Babsy. She broke her stay before I called her so, I took her back and firmly said, STAY again and stalked the distance and turned around, and looking at her, hoping she would not break the stay, I then said, COME! 

She scrunched down and practically crawled to me. I about died. I did not want her to ever fear me, never. It's awful. And, the show was in something like two days and she was entered for 3 entries. Uhg! (She needed just two legs.) 

The answer for her was to calm down. Try again. And this time SMILE. 
And when I did, she came trotting in to me. 

So, we got the two legs, all the pressure was off on day three, and then I got this judge who accused me of telling my dog to sit on the figure 8. She was yelling at me. I told her I didn't Both posts told her I didn't she continued to yell. Uhg! I'm thick skinned and she had me totally haggard. Then, I couldn't hear the lady when she was directing me from behind so I made some turns I shouldn't and was totally frazzled. But Babs and I were still going. I set Babsy up for the recall. I knew I was frazzled, and the lady was right behind Babs, and I knew I had to smile, and I got to the end and turned around, and Smiled and Babs came running before the lady signaled me. Oops. Fine. I didn't care. She had titled already and I would rather my girl run to me, than crawl to me. 

Our body language makes a lot of difference to our dogs, and they read our faces.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> I may try an SSL then  i agree with you about k9 behaving badly,but it may be my last resort as i'm really struggling to find a trainer i trust /reputable in my area. for the while though i'm following advice and managing behaviour. Today i tried a muzzle on my guy for the first time, he wasn't happy. i've been training him into it for a week with treats etc so he doesn't hate it. i only put it on him properly for the first time today, and unfortunately it's a little big for him.
> 
> I wanted to check out a nearby park/river that we haven't been to yet, unfortunately 2mins of the journey is crossing through a busy town centre which can't be avoided, no matter the time of day. vader was really good, somewhat scared but i kept it a game with him to distract. he didn't bark at anyone today other than a man who was cycling past and paid him attention. he only seems to bark if someone pays him attention, eye contact/talk to him etc. if i say hey to someone while passing he's simply aloof.
> 
> So i just made sure to keep out of touching distance because we were inevitably going to see people today, even by the quiet river area. I used his collar too. was a really fun day. Vader dragged me down a swamp and got us all covered in mud and nettle stings!!
> 
> I posted pics of him at the start of my thread, though maybe it didn't work properly. let me know if it worked. (the one where he's all muddy i took today, the other one about a week ago)


LOL no ... there was no problem with the first photos. It's just the dog your describing ... could not have been that dog???

And ... oh man "resource guarding" also??? Sigh ... Ok, stepping back from full on "Homie" the "Family Pet Dog Trainer" mode. The resource guarding has to stop and the best time to address it is now.

I've never had a dog that resource guards myself??? My personnel dogs have always been puppies and I don't feed the rescues I work with ... so nI don't know if any of them had that issue?? 

At any rate ... I'd address that issues now and I'd start here and of course my guy first ...





And next to Micheal Ellis "everybody's" favorite ... 






Oddly enough both guys kinda tick me off for the exact same thing. 

But in as much as it's not about me ... I won't play favorites go with what works for "you."


----------



## xWolf

David Winners said:


> ID Collar W/ 2 ID Panels-Elite K-9
> 
> Do Not Pet-Elite K-9
> 
> I use these.


Thank you! been looking all over for something like that


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> Muzzles—Not Just for Aggression Anymore! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> Muzzles?Not Just for Aggression Anymore! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> 
> Good link that describes how to fit, pick and train a dog to wear a muzzle.


Thanks  we got a muzzle but it's too big for him. goes right up to his eyes haha. so i've been looking about for another one. Are the any specific muzzles you'd recommend?


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> So .... now the owner is "freaked out" and has a "Death Grip on the muzzle???" Says "who" someone could "ask" the OP?? But ... nope people and lecture on why ... well because I don't do it ... "that can't work??"
> 
> Pretty much a text book example of why when I had problems with my dog's "Clear and Present Danger" behavior with JQP ... I did not seek "feedback." "Apparently" the ability to "body block a dogs view?? Is some kind of an alien and Radical concept??? Well ... decades ago so was "KMODT." Pretty sure he heard plenty of "well that can't work" and "this is why." If one does not "like" the approach fine "explain" why, and the "OP" can "make there choices."
> 
> But for what is the subject of "debate" here ... "your" not the first and most likely neither was I??? But .... even with "me!" I am a state of "Missouri" kinda guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paws on the ground ... "body block" is what I did/do with "every dog" I ... work with, works out fine. People throw out the but dog can't see them bit, all the time. OK fine, I'll go with it. So I guess that means by "extrapolation" that dog's that can't see a "subject" ... don't know they are there??? So ... exactly how does that work ... either a dog needs to see a "subject" or he does not. But it's a rhetorical question ... don't really care, I'd luv to see someone convince that what "I did" did not work???
> 
> And the "Please" thing with JQP, that does not appear to understand that the "US constitution" does not include the "Right" to interact with someone else's dog. Well hey I'm a reasonable kinda guy??? So for "me" it would be more like "Please Don't Pet my dog or ... "we will have a serious freaking problem here!!!" If I have to say that?? The ... freaking fuse is lit!!!
> 
> So ... back on pointe .... a muzzle ... well we have a "Bubble Dog" here, a dog that may need a muzzle to be safe in public. I used one for awhile myself ... but things I did not at the time, ... a muzzle can help you and the dog relax. The dog is less inclined to act like a fool and the owner is more relaxed because they have a "back up." And the muzzle need not be for life, once your dog better understands "you have his back" the muzzle my no longer be necessary.
> 
> Muzzle on ... does not mean "Interaction" the job is still the same for the dog ...stand there and do "nothing." The job is still Keep people out of his face. Once he fully trust that you will keep people out of his face ... you will "see that" and can drop the muzzle. The dog should look the same way with the muzzle on or off. If you stand and talk to people he should be calm and not really care one way or the other.


Yeah, i noticed how some people misuse muzzle rather than use it as a tool. That is, stick the muzzle on and then force the dog to interact/do things it isn't comfortable with simply because of the muzzle. I'm going to be treating everything the same, reading my dog's body language and notice what he is comfortable with. the muzzle is just a precaution


----------



## xWolf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The only thing you can control are you and your dog.
> 
> You have been given lots of good advice by people experienced with the breed and aggression. I understand trainers can be hard to come by depending on where you live. I live in the city too and I know how tight things can be. As has been suggested, this dog needs some obedience put on it. You need to start somewhere with few distractions and work your way up. In the meantime a muzzle is a good idea when you take him around people.
> 
> You also need to work on what you can control. You need to remove your dog when you feel uncomfortable. Calmly stepping off the curb and having your dog sit and focus can speak volumes to somebody wanting to see the nice doggy and is far less stressful to you and your dog, and you don't have to argue with a stranger to not pet your dog or throw yourself in between them and your dog. It doesn't have to be as hard and combative as other people try to make it.


I do that anyway upon approach. make him sit and focus on me. but there are situations where there isn't space/unavoidable to move away (e.g crossing at a light)


----------



## Dotbat215

We have a *Baskerville Ultra*....got it on amazon for about $13 (cheap enough to upgrade as he grows). I think the muzzle is a great idea. It made us way less anxious which I think made our dog less anxious. And it also made training easier because we weren't in constant "Oh Ish!" mode. 



Make sure you acclimate him to it. We started by cupping our hands around it and putting treats inside (your cupped hands keep them from falling out) then let the dog eat from it. Don't put on straps or anything. Then when he readily put his face in, I marked the behavior with the word Muzzle and I draped a strap on his neck to get him used to the feeling. 



When the time came for him to actually wear it, I cut up hot dogs which he never ever gets. He wore it for a few minutes at first and then we built up his tolerance. You'll want to establish a foundation of happy memories that go along with being muzzled. I think many people only bring it out when they're at the vet or somewhere stressful and the dog sees it as a negative.


----------



## xWolf

Jax08 said:


> Can I just interject on this point? I, too, have that face. I didn't realize how much it was affecting my dog until my breeder said something about not to be angry with my dog for a certain reason. Angry? I'm not angry. I'm just standing here. What are you talking about? Well you look angry and your dog thinks your angry.
> 
> BUT dogs READ your BODY! Some of this reactivity could be your dog reading your face and assuming he needs to react to people. The slightest tension on the leash? They feel it. There are studies out there that show dogs react differently to a smile vs a frown.
> 
> Don't stop. Don't ever just stop. Keep moving. Nope! Sorry! Can't pet my dog! Got to go! Thanks anyways!
> 
> Keep all that in mind and think about what your body is saying to your dog.


Thank you. I've just never been a 'smiley' type person haha. but i'll keep that in mind for my dog's sake. I always do the 'on the move' thing. but sometimes we have to stop in situations like stopping at a light, narrow pathway and people approaching etc. I always make sure to make him sit and focus on me in those situations. I guess i need a more positive body language (ie. facial expressions), i've just always had an 'angry' resting face i guess. But i'll work on that!


----------



## xWolf

Chip18 said:


> LOL no ... there was no problem with the first photos. It's just the dog your describing ... could not have been that dog???
> 
> And ... oh man "resource guarding" also??? Sigh ... Ok, stepping back from full on "Homie" the "Family Pet Dog Trainer" mode. The resource guarding has to stop and the best time to address it is now.
> 
> I've never had a dog that resource guards myself??? My personnel dogs have always been puppies and I don't feed the rescues I work with ... so nI don't know if any of them had that issue??
> 
> At any rate ... I'd address that issues now and I'd start here and of course my guy first ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyAA-7hedo
> 
> And next to Micheal Ellis "everybody's" favorite ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWyAA-7hedo
> 
> 
> Oddly enough both guys kinda tick me off for the exact same thing.
> 
> But in as much as it's not about me ... I won't play favorites go with what works for "you."


You posted 2 of the same link? 

JG Makes it look so easy haha. I do make vader down-stay until i give him the 'ok' to eat. he's good at that. and he doesn't guard food bowl, just 'high value' treats. Still, i'm gonna try the 'out' command tonight when i feed him. Because it's once he's got the food he thinks it's 'his' so to speak.


----------



## xWolf

Dotbat215 said:


> We have a *Baskerville Ultra*....got it on amazon for about $13 (cheap enough to upgrade as he grows). I think the muzzle is a great idea. It made us way less anxious which I think made our dog less anxious. And it also made training easier because we weren't in constant "Oh Ish!" mode.
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure you acclimate him to it. We started by cupping our hands around it and putting treats inside (your cupped hands keep them from falling out) then let the dog eat from it. Don't put on straps or anything. Then when he readily put his face in, I marked the behavior with the word Muzzle and I draped a strap on his neck to get him used to the feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> When the time came for him to actually wear it, I cut up hot dogs which he never ever gets. He wore it for a few minutes at first and then we built up his tolerance. You'll want to establish a foundation of happy memories that go along with being muzzled. I think many people only bring it out when they're at the vet or somewhere stressful and the dog sees it as a negative.


I bought that exact same muzzle, and slowly built up his tolerance for it. Because i didn't want him to hate the muzzle, i just 'guessed ' his size. Bad plan. I did exactly what you said, built him up to it for about a week. in sessions of a few minutes each day. bringing out the muzzle ,showing treats. treats in the muzzle. Slowly building him up to it. By the time it came to actually 'putting' it on, he did the usual trying to get it off thing for a few seconds. then we realised it didn't fit!!  Absolutely fine width-wise, but length wise it kept going up to his eyes. I'd been in a rush getting one and just kinda hoped it would fit because i couldn't try it on him before buying it for fear he'd hate it. I'm just gonna measure him for the next one we buy. I might buy the same one.But a little smaller length-wise.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I'm not too sure the average dog owner is going to have good results attempting what JG did in that video...


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> You posted 2 of the same link?
> 
> JG Makes it look so easy haha. I do make vader down-stay until i give him the 'ok' to eat. he's good at that. and he doesn't guard food bowl, just 'high value' treats. Still, i'm gonna try the 'out' command tonight when i feed him. Because it's once he's got the food he thinks it's 'his' so to speak.


Please don't mess with his food. That is the cause of so much resource guarding. You give it to him, it's his. 

If you want to teach Out, do it with a ball. If you want to stop resource guarding it's really as simple as trading up. Give him a treat, then offer him an even better treat. Do that over and over until when you come near, he expects something better. 

The ONLY time I take something from my dogs is when it's a danger. When I give my one dog, who will guard his treats, something then I give him it to him in his crate. But I can still take it if I need to because I've never taught him that I'm a threat. Only that good things come from me.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

After Thecowboysgirl's comment, I went and watched the video. Let the dog eat in peace. Bothering the dog while it is eating causes food /resource aggression

And somehow I don't think "rehabbing" the white GSD was as simple as Gellman describes. I couldn't help but notice the white GSD's tucked tail which tucked even further when given food.


----------



## xWolf

Jax08 said:


> Please don't mess with his food. That is the cause of so much resource guarding. You give it to him, it's his.
> 
> If you want to teach Out, do it with a ball. If you want to stop resource guarding it's really as simple as trading up. Give him a treat, then offer him an even better treat. Do that over and over until when you come near, he expects something better.
> 
> The ONLY time I take something from my dogs is when it's a danger. When I give my one dog, who will guard his treats, something then I give him it to him in his crate. But I can still take it if I need to because I've never taught him that I'm a threat. Only that good things come from me.


He doesn't guard food bowl, only high value treats. And i already worked on the trade-up to the point where i can walk by him and he be fine when he's chewing on a high value treat. Because he knows i won't take it. BUT, if something drops on the floor, he automatically thinks it's his. So to say something dangerous dropped on the floor, i couldn't take it from him because he would move away/growl if i tried, just as he does with a high value item. So what then? For now i have been working on trade-ups, but in an emergency situation for example, i can't 'trade up' . it's get the item/food/toxic household object NOW before he swallows it and becomes a danger.


----------



## dogma13

Xwolf it IS his food.By guarding it yourself it creates anxiety for him.Jax had good advice!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

MAWL good call. I was busy watching Jeff and did not even notice the tail the first time. When he uses the prong to get the dog to stop eating it goes all the way between the dog's legs.

My other thoughts were, here is a dog said to be very food aggressive and he is kneeling in front of it well within striking range for his face, arms ect. He gestures toward the dog's face with a hand while talking. I remember a CM episode where he had pushed a resource guarder off food a bunch of times and later gestured toward the dog just like that and got a pretty bad bite for it.

My thought is the average pet owner does not have nearly enough control over a dog to risk that or the knowledge to read a dog to know whether they can risk that. I don't really know that much about Jeff Gellman. He didn't get bitten this time. But unless that dog is fearful to begin with it probably got a pretty whopping correction based on that tail.

Also bringing out the other dog right in the one's face. Also likely going to be a nightmare for an average pet owner.

I prefer to practice "food love" with my dogs which is basically random acts of food kindness while eating. Occasionally I will reach into their bowls and feed them a very special treat. if it is a questionable dog I might say their name and teach them to look up from the bowl for special treat. Whatever it is is WAY better than what they are eating. I come up behind them, say name, when they look around, feed awesome treat. Somewhere down the road I might tap them to get attention then feed awesome treat, then maybe act like I accidentally bumped into them (very gently), feed multpiple awesome treats. I did this more when there were kids in the house. My old male gsd who looked a lot like that one in the video was a resource guarder and we got him to a safe and manageable place completely without the use of force.

I do this very occasionally, I don't know for sure but maybe once a month? They get the message. If I come up to them while they are eating and say their name they look up smiling. I always am considering dog's demeanor and that they don't feel stressed or pressured or like they can't eat in peace. Thats why I do it so infrequently. Also if someone has a foodbowl running away from them I might grab it and hold it for them. I soak food and sometimes it sticks in corners of the bowls. Mine at least totally understand that I just grabbed the bowl to make life easier for them. So basically if I ever get around the bowl or food it is to do something nice, or help or whatever. They are relaxed.


----------



## dogma13

xWolf said:


> He doesn't guard food bowl, only high value treats. And i already worked on the trade-up to the point where i can walk by him and he be fine when he's chewing on a high value treat. Because he knows i won't take it. BUT, if something drops on the floor, he automatically thinks it's his. So to say something dangerous dropped on the floor, i couldn't take it from him because he would move away/growl if i tried, just as he does with a high value item. So what then? For now i have been working on trade-ups, but in an emergency situation for example, i can't 'trade up' . it's get the item/food/toxic household object NOW before he swallows it and becomes a danger.


Again,like Jax advised, train the out or leave it with a toy and treat.Play this game often with him and it becomes automatic behavior for him.You've programmed him to leave whatever he's going after because he'll be spectacularly rewarded.


----------



## xWolf

dogma13 said:


> Xwolf it IS his food.By guarding it yourself it creates anxiety for him.Jax had good advice!


Just because some human food drops on the floor doesn't mean it's HIS food. i need to teach him out of going to grab something that's dropped, because one time i could drop something highly toxic on the floor and he pick it up.I've not guarded it myself. just think it would be a good idea to teach 'out' command for instances where he might pick up something toxic to him .I'll try teach it using a ball


----------



## xWolf

Thecowboysgirl said:


> MAWL good call. I was busy watching Jeff and did not even notice the tail the first time. When he uses the prong to get the dog to stop eating it goes all the way between the dog's legs.
> 
> My other thoughts were, here is a dog said to be very food aggressive and he is kneeling in front of it well within striking range for his face, arms ect. He gestures toward the dog's face with a hand while talking. I remember a CM episode where he had pushed a resource guarder off food a bunch of times and later gestured toward the dog just like that and got a pretty bad bite for it.
> 
> My thought is the average pet owner does not have nearly enough control over a dog to risk that or the knowledge to read a dog to know whether they can risk that. I don't really know that much about Jeff Gellman. He didn't get bitten this time. But unless that dog is fearful to begin with it probably got a pretty whopping correction based on that tail.
> 
> Also bringing out the other dog right in the one's face. Also likely going to be a nightmare for an average pet owner.
> 
> I prefer to practice "food love" with my dogs which is basically random acts of food kindness while eating. Occasionally I will reach into their bowls and feed them a very special treat. if it is a questionable dog I might say their name and teach them to look up from the bowl for special treat. Whatever it is is WAY better than what they are eating. I come up behind them, say name, when they look around, feed awesome treat. Somewhere down the road I might tap them to get attention then feed awesome treat, then maybe act like I accidentally bumped into them (very gently), feed multpiple awesome treats. I did this more when there were kids in the house. My old male gsd who looked a lot like that one in the video was a resource guarder and we got him to a safe and manageable place completely without the use of force.
> 
> I do this very occasionally, I don't know for sure but maybe once a month? They get the message. If I come up to them while they are eating and say their name they look up smiling. I always am considering dog's demeanor and that they don't feel stressed or pressured or like they can't eat in peace. Thats why I do it so infrequently. Also if someone has a foodbowl running away from them I might grab it and hold it for them. I soak food and sometimes it sticks in corners of the bowls. Mine at least totally understand that I just grabbed the bowl to make life easier for them. So basically if I ever get around the bowl or food it is to do something nice, or help or whatever. They are relaxed.


Thanks for the tips, i've been doing all this with my dog already. putting treats in his bowl on occasion so he knows if i'm around he gets better food, not to be anxious, that sort of thing. I do want to teach him some sort of 'out' command, so that if he does pick up something toxic i can just say it and he'll leave it. he knows 'off' , but that only works for toys.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Lots of practice trading up, and never let an opportunity go by without reinforcing a good response. 

Poop eating was a major problem for my pup. Nearly got it licked now (I don't know if that pun was intended or not lol). Every once in a blue moon he might find a little turd I missed and pick it up if I am not near him. If I see it and say no, he will open his mouth and spit it out. When he does, I run into the house with him and give him a dental chewie which is the only thing I have that is quick, easy, special, and lets him nom on it like he would have the turd (and his mouth is somewhat cleaner!)? 

After 3 days in the rv and not hardly getting off a 6 foot leash he was a goon. He grabbed something and started running around and I heard it clattering on his teeth and knew by the sound it wasn't something he should have. He started playing keepaway with me (also not something that usually happens but he was so pent up). I followed him and just kept saying please give me that and he stopped and spat it out. It was a rock. I am glad he didn't keep playing with it, but if he was desperate enough to play with a rock, it was too long cooped up. I ran him to the porch and got him his favorite toy that he only gets sometimes and then played with him for 10 minutes even tho it was late and I wanted to go to bed. He just needed to goof off for a minute.

They take notes. His takeaway from that was, I handed over my rock and got to play with my favorite toy (which I am sure is what he really wanted in the first place). 

There have and will be times I can't give such a great reward but if I can, I do, because if life is like that more often than not, they cooperate more and try to elude and outsmart militant mom less.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> Yeah, i noticed how some people misuse muzzle rather than use it as a tool. That is, stick the muzzle on and then force the dog to interact/do things it isn't comfortable with simply because of the muzzle. I'm going to be treating everything the same, reading my dog's body language and notice what he is comfortable with. the muzzle is just a precaution


Oh by and large ... most (Pet People) try that. Usually it's been "preceded" by the use of treats, to as I tend to say (trick people into my dogs face.) 


Typically done by people who already had preconceived notations of who "there dogs is" and what they will do with them. And when/if "Rufus" still refuses to get with the program, off to the shelter you go. 

A dog has no requirement to like "anyone" other than pack members, but a dog does have a requirement to be "safe" in public. 

But it requires "flexibility" in one's expectations ... sometimes. Work with the Dog in front of you and change your exceptions!

All I do (advocate) is show dogs "Daddy's" got your back. I "show them how I expect them to behave around people and there "job" is to do "Nothing!" stand there calmly ... "I got this." And AFAIK ... you can't pound "Calm" into a dog but you can "Show" them! 

Calm assertive leadership (is all my dog and dogs I work with see) people that won't except "NO" for an answer??? Well they will see "Calmly "Aggressive" leadership" if required! As I tell my dogs ... "NO means freaking NO!" And ... "people" best "believe that!" Cause as I am want to say ....:

User Media - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Lots of practice trading up, and never let an opportunity go by without reinforcing a good response.
> 
> Poop eating was a major problem for my pup. Nearly got it licked now (I don't know if that pun was intended or not lol). Every once in a blue moon he might find a little turd I missed and pick it up if I am not near him. If I see it and say no, he will open his mouth and spit it out. When he does, I run into the house with him and give him a dental chewie which is the only thing I have that is quick, easy, special, and lets him nom on it like he would have the turd (and his mouth is somewhat cleaner!)?
> 
> After 3 days in the rv and not hardly getting off a 6 foot leash he was a goon. He grabbed something and started running around and I heard it clattering on his teeth and knew by the sound it wasn't something he should have. He started playing keepaway with me (also not something that usually happens but he was so pent up). I followed him and just kept saying please give me that and he stopped and spat it out. It was a rock. I am glad he didn't keep playing with it, but if he was desperate enough to play with a rock, it was too long cooped up. I ran him to the porch and got him his favorite toy that he only gets sometimes and then played with him for 10 minutes even tho it was late and I wanted to go to bed. He just needed to goof off for a minute.
> 
> *They take notes. *His takeaway from that was, I handed over my rock and got to play with my favorite toy (which I am sure is what he really wanted in the first place).
> 
> There have and will be times I can't give such a great reward but if I can, I do, because if life is like that more often than not, they cooperate more and try to elude and outsmart militant mom less.


Isn't that the truth? They are wicked smart when it benefits them.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> You posted 2 of the same link?
> 
> JG Makes it look so easy haha. I do make vader down-stay until i give him the 'ok' to eat. he's good at that. and he doesn't guard food bowl, just 'high value' treats. Still, i'm gonna try the 'out' command tonight when i feed him. Because it's once he's got the food he thinks it's 'his' so to speak.


Aww crap!!! I'll fix it! 






Done! 


And muzzle conditioning although it sounds like you have the concept, down already. :






My approach was a bit different ... worked out fine for me ... but most assuredly not recommended!  

And the muzzle, need not be for life??? It's a part of the process, keep people out of your dogs face over and over. You will understand/see what they look like when they are "Calm." Muzzle or no muzzle ... they will have a "sigh, this "old bit" look on there face." Kinda like .... "whatever." 

That is what your looking for, and then your dog can "Stand by your side" if you stop to talk. The body blocking is mostly when your starting out and not really sure of your ability to "Stop" people and ... for the "persistently ignorant!" And to be fair ... it sounds like your in a pretty "people" intensive environment! But the "principles" are the same "adapt" to fit your circumstances. 

Your training your dog to "Make Good Choices" right not he's not sure what those are???


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is OP's dog and it is up to her to decide / control who is on the other end of the leash of the dog.
> 
> It wasn't so long ago another member on this form chose to not remove her dog from a dangerous situation and her dog was attacked by a stranger resulting in that member having "fisticuffs" with the stranger. The way I heard it, the dog was injured, vet verified. This was less than an ideal situation for all involved and I would not recommend it.
> 
> If people have a dog with the real potential to bite, rehoming it is not necessarily the easiest, or best thing to do. OP is willing to work with her dog, she just needs the right tools. Some people can DIY, others need more.


 Really??? Yesss, pretty sure I know of that to which you refer?? Considering the "totality" of the "circumstances" in my "opinion" ... they made the right call.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Really??? Yesss, pretty sure I know of that to which you refer?? Considering the "totality" of the "circumstances" in my "opinion" ... they made the right call.


IMO, when you can, and don't, remove your dog from harm's way, you are failing your dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

That is Tyler Muto, nof Michael Ellis, just FYI.

Muzzle video is a guy Muto trained if I am not mistaken..lbarefoot dog trainer.I can't think of his name-Josh Moran?

Chip have you thought about changing your screen name to LinkMaster or something like that  do you have a file you go to?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Linkmaster? :spittingcoffee:


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

LOL I don't know it just popped into my head...


----------



## Muskeg

I don't know- is training a dog to step away from the food when you come close teaching him anything? Isn't it kind of just teaching him to pay even more attention to you, and in some ways to be even more concerned? 

I disagree with using e-collar for this, as well. I like e-collars, but if there is another way to communicate with the dog- for example I am standing right there and dog is on a leash- I will not use an e-collar. This in general, there are some notable exceptions but in those cases I am not using low-levels. 

I honestly don't know. I don't know how other trainer's handle this- resource guarding. I'd try the very least conflict way first- trading up and leaving the dog alone to eat. I tend to think (I could be wrong) that this behavior is a sign of a poor dog-handler relationship, overall. I think if you fix the relationship, the guarding will go away. Big picture stuff. 

I don't think more control around food is the answer. This is one area I think obedience isn't the answer. Don't make food a bigger deal (meals), by making the dog wait and do stuff for his food- an adult dog that has guarding issues. I kind of see this building "drive" for food like you would a toy. Same process, if you think about it. 

Common to work for meals in working puppies, and works well. But I think raising the value of the meal might create conflict in a resource guarding "pet" dog. 

Again, just my thoughts.


----------



## David Winners

There is such a wide gap between those 2 videos. Just look at the posture of the dogs. Tyler admitted that he pushed too far too soon with his dog because the dog showed refusal and required a correction. Jeff just plowed through the dog and forced it into compliance. From how the dog is reacting, I would say this wasn't the first time this happened. This is a mistake I used to make quite often. It is also why I often ask to see video of a situation. The behavior is so important to us that the rest of the situation is harder for us to see. Yes, the dog was complying for the most part, but there is a forest behind the trees.

Will the dog bounce back? It probably will through repetition.


----------



## David Winners

Muskeg said:


> I don't know- is training a dog to step away from the food when you come close teaching him anything? Isn't it kind of just teaching him to pay even more attention to you, and in some ways to be even more concerned?
> 
> I disagree with using e-collar for this, as well. I like e-collars, but if there is another way to communicate with the dog- for example I am standing right there and dog is on a leash- I will not use an e-collar. This in general, there are some notable exceptions but in those cases I am not using low-levels.
> 
> I honestly don't know. I don't know how other trainer's handle this- resource guarding. I'd try the very least conflict way first- trading up and leaving the dog alone to eat. I tend to think (I could be wrong) that this behavior is a sign of a poor dog-handler relationship, overall. I think if you fix the relationship, the guarding will go away. Big picture stuff.
> 
> I don't think more control around food is the answer. This is one area I think obedience isn't the answer. Don't make food a bigger deal (meals), by making the dog wait and do stuff for his food- an adult dog that has guarding issues. I kind of see this building "drive" for food like you would a toy. Same process, if you think about it.
> 
> Common to work for meals in working puppies, and works well. But I think raising the value of the meal might create conflict in a resource guarding "pet" dog.
> 
> Again, just my thoughts.


I see your logic, but I think you're missing something. In building drive through frustration, everything you do amps the dog up. That's the goal, so when the dog is amped up, it gets rewarded.

In this case, the dog is rewarded for being calm. Everything about the exercise is calm. 

Just like anything else, the dog learns how to get what it wants, and proofing the behavior makes it solid.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> Just because some human food drops on the floor doesn't mean it's HIS food. i need to teach him out of going to grab something that's dropped, because one time i could drop something highly toxic on the floor and he pick it up.I've not guarded it myself. just think it would be a good idea to teach 'out' command for instances where he might pick up something toxic to him .I'll try teach it using a ball


Awe gezze now it's resource guarding at issue??? 

So in general the recommendation is to "ignore the behavior??" Fine then "ignore a know "potentially dangerous" problem behavior. Feed the dog in the crate and leave him alone .. problem solved???

Well that's great but in the "Real World" crap happens! And the best preparation for the "unexpected" is * a well trained dog. * 

In the "Real World" people can/could/do drop ... whatever by a resource guarding dog and heaven forbid that person happens to be a "Child!" But you know I don't have kids and stuff so whatever??

Personally for me I'd just as soon my dogs "not" be in the habit of snatching crap away from people! In the real world ... yep I do let people pet "Rocky" on occasion and if that person happen to drop something in front of him and reach for it, what would happen??? 

"Nothing" because he has no known "resource" guarding issues that I knew of and "chose not to address." "Make Good Choices Dog" and I don't see how a dog can do that unless he's been taught??? I'd much rather a dog's default behavior be to "think" instead of "act." But hey I'm not a "Pro" and stuff.

But folks can feel free to console on the "ignore" a known behavior route! No shortage of dogs in shelters where people chose to "ignore" a known problem behavior and it did quite work out.

Also no shortage of passengers on the "ignore a know problem behavior" Train. But you won't find me ... because I "address issues" not "ignore" them. 

The issue should be "how" to address ... "not "if" in my opinion.


----------



## Chip18

Ok then addressing "how" not "if," I'm good with that.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> IMO, when you can, and don't, remove your dog from harm's way, you are failing your dog.


LOL ... good one! Without expanding the discussion, your statement sounds pretty reasonable! 

But ... "bickering" and "one upmanship" you know ... so I'll just let your "reasonable" sounding statement.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That is Tyler Muto, nof Michael Ellis, just FYI.
> 
> Muzzle video is a guy Muto trained if I am not mistaken..lbarefoot dog trainer.I can't think of his name-Josh Moran?
> 
> Chip have you thought about changing your screen name to LinkMaster or something like that  do you have a file you go to?


Oh I know the two of them are, I was "trying" to say as "popular as each other" on here. 

And yea the Bare Foot Guy, Josh Moran, I thought I saw something that indicated he had a relationship with Tylor Muto, in the past??? If such were the case .. maybe they broke up cause Josh, refused to put on shoes??? 

Yes the links ... digital pack rat! Save to Chrome (New), Save to Pocket, Readitlater and Fresh Start. Youtube saves history so that's useful directly on there site 

All I try and do is point people in the direction of "Real Trainers." JQP doesn't really care about "nuances" of approach as long as it's not "Yank and Crank" they don't care, all they want is for there dog to *"not be acting like a fool!" *

But I don't know maybe I make it to easy for folks to critique Jeff?? But hey if folks don't like that "clip" they find something else here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidK9Training/search?query=resource+guarding


But ... that seems a bit "excessive" even for me! People just need to know there are solutions for there problems out there and if they see what "solutions" look like, they can "decide" if it's something they can do??


But .... having said that, I suppose now the "arguments" will be whether or not people can indeed "decide" for themselves?? I don't know ... maybe people should consult a trainer first and the trainer can help them "decide" if "deciding" for themselves is a wise decision???


----------



## ausdland

xWolf said:


> So today the worst happened. i'm so pissed at my boyfriend, a man asked if he could pet Vader as SO was waiting outside the store for me. I initially told SO do not let anyone pet him or make eye contact, i always step in front and tell them sternly "no", just as you said, so i'm between the person and the dog. It seems my SO didn't tell the man "no", simply advised him that Vader was wary of people. And he ended up biting the man's hand. obviously with him being 5 months old and his teeth haven't come through yet, it was just a nip and no blood drawn. Still, this shows that he will bite if anyone tries to touch him. Mostly, i'm pissed at my bf for not telling the man a strict "NO"


Wow, that sucks. I hope your BF smacked your pup right away. I'm not a professional dog trainer. Just like children, puppies need serious consequences for very bad behavior imo. My pup bit my hand hard around that age, got smacked so quick as a reflex and has never bit me or anyone since. She's a happy girl that learned bite inhibition in one incident. I'm all for positive reinforcement training until a serious consequence is required.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

How can people decide for themselves if they aren't given options?

And recommending that people leave dogs alone when they eat in order to prevent or eliminate food aggression is an option, albeit not one of yours. Or does that make a difference? :grin2:


----------



## xWolf

Muskeg said:


> I don't know- is training a dog to step away from the food when you come close teaching him anything? Isn't it kind of just teaching him to pay even more attention to you, and in some ways to be even more concerned?
> 
> I disagree with using e-collar for this, as well. I like e-collars, but if there is another way to communicate with the dog- for example I am standing right there and dog is on a leash- I will not use an e-collar. This in general, there are some notable exceptions but in those cases I am not using low-levels.
> 
> I honestly don't know. I don't know how other trainer's handle this- resource guarding. I'd try the very least conflict way first- trading up and leaving the dog alone to eat. I tend to think (I could be wrong) that this behavior is a sign of a poor dog-handler relationship, overall. I think if you fix the relationship, the guarding will go away. Big picture stuff.
> 
> I don't think more control around food is the answer. This is one area I think obedience isn't the answer. Don't make food a bigger deal (meals), by making the dog wait and do stuff for his food- an adult dog that has guarding issues. I kind of see this building "drive" for food like you would a toy. Same process, if you think about it.
> 
> Common to work for meals in working puppies, and works well. But I think raising the value of the meal might create conflict in a resource guarding "pet" dog.
> 
> Again, just my thoughts.


I wouldn't say we have a poor relationship. Quite the opposite in fact. I admit i still have a **** of a lot to learn, and while he's wary of strangers and noises outside, if there are no distractions he stays focused. As for indoors, i work on his basic obedience every day. i've still got a lot to learn as an owner. but i would say our relationship is positive and trusting. i have a bond with him like i never imagined. The food thing i caused by grabbing some garlic bread out of his mouth once, because i was worried it would be toxic for him (a large piece) and since then, he's been wary with high value items. and i admittedly caused that myself. but in all other aspects we have a great bond.

i'll continue with the trading then. he's definitely improved since we started trading. beforehand, he would run off with a high value treat. he wouldn't let us near (again cus of the garlic bread situation). now he'll trade item for something else, and he doesn't mind us being in proximity. i do leave him alone when he eats meals, and for high value i usually leave him in a different room or his crate so he isn't disturbed... as for the not making him 'work for it' ...i see your point. it's a difficult one because a lot of trainers have told me to make him down-stay for his food because it means he's less likely to grab something on the floor if he;s not told to 'eat'


----------



## xWolf

ausdland said:


> Wow, that sucks. I hope your BF smacked your pup right away. I'm not a professional dog trainer. Just like children, puppies need serious consequences for very bad behavior imo. My pup bit my hand hard around that age, got smacked so quick as a reflex and has never bit me or anyone since. She's a happy girl that learned bite inhibition in one incident. I'm all for positive reinforcement training until a serious consequence is required.


From what i understand he just verbally reprimanded him. my boyfriend can be quite firm when he wants to be though, my dog knows when he's being told off. But i think at the time he was more concerned about the man,who apparently just laughed the situation off.


----------



## CatChandler

Jax08 said:


> Please don't mess with his food. That is the cause of so much resource guarding. You give it to him, it's his.


I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here. You should be able to stick your hand in your dog's food bowl while he/she is eating without worrying about getting bitten. You should be able to accidentally bump your dog while he/she is eating without worrying about them turning around and taking a chunk out of your calf. 

Dr Ian Dunbar has a really excellent in-depth article about resource guarding - Guarding Valued Objects | Dog Star Daily


----------



## voodoolamb

ausdland said:


> Wow, that sucks. I hope your BF smacked your pup right away. I'm not a professional dog trainer. Just like children, puppies need serious consequences for very bad behavior imo. My pup bit my hand hard around that age, got smacked so quick as a reflex and has never bit me or anyone since. She's a happy girl that learned bite inhibition in one incident. I'm all for positive reinforcement training until a serious consequence is required.


NO. Bad idea. 

I am not opposed to physical corrections and positive punishment. But NEVER hitting. Hitting is a very primate behavior - not a canine one. It simply is not good "dog speak". 

In the university of pa survey they found that out of the aversive techniques hitting and kicking elicited the highest aggressive responses from the dogs. With 43% responding with aggression of their own. 43%. Other physical corrections had significantly less aggressive responses. 

http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf

It makes sense if you think about it from a wild canid's point of view. What is the closest thing they get to being hit? Getting Kicked by ungulate prey. The best response for the wild canid when dealing with a feisty prey item is to increase aggression. 

Not to mention when canids DO correct one another - what do they do? Grab the neck. 

Leash corrections, prong collars, e collars work phenomenonly well because dogs already have an instinct to respond to pressire/pain in the neck area. It's better dog speak. 

That said I an NOT convinced that a physical correction would have been the best idea in the OPs scenario in the first place. To many unknowns. I'm not one to physically correct a defensive/scared dog. Especially nit with my own hand as I have absolutely no interest in getting bit.


----------



## voodoolamb

xWolf said:


> Just because some human food drops on the floor doesn't mean it's HIS food. i need to teach him out of going to grab something that's dropped, because one time i could drop something highly toxic on the floor and he pick it up.I've not guarded it myself. just think it would be a good idea to teach 'out' command for instances where he might pick up something toxic to him .I'll try teach it using a ball


Does he know "leave it?


----------



## Steve Strom

> I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here. You should be able to stick your hand in your dog's food bowl while he/she is eating without worrying about getting bitten.


Why do you want to? Everyone on the side of mess with his food always says "What if?" Well, what if what? Don't put anything in his bowl he isn't supposed to eat. Trust is very general with your overall relationship. Why pick a fight over something you don't have to? I've never owned a dog that I had to take his meal away from. Food dropped on the floor? "Leave it." Its simple.


----------



## ausdland

voodoolamb said:


> NO. Bad idea.
> 
> I am not opposed to physical corrections and positive punishment. But NEVER hitting. Hitting is a very primate behavior - not a canine one. It simply is not good "dog speak".
> 
> In the university of pa survey they found that out of the aversive techniques hitting and kicking elicited the highest aggressive responses from the dogs. With 43% responding with aggression of their own. 43%. Other physical corrections had significantly less aggressive responses.
> 
> http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf
> 
> It makes sense if you think about it from a wild canid's point of view. What is the closest thing they get to being hit? Getting Kicked by ungulate prey. The best response for the wild canid when dealing with a feisty prey item is to increase aggression.
> 
> Not to mention when canids DO correct one another - what do they do? Grab the neck.
> 
> Leash corrections, prong collars, e collars work phenomenonly well because dogs already have an instinct to respond to pressire/pain in the neck area. It's better dog speak.
> 
> That said I an NOT convinced that a physical correction would have been the best idea in the OPs scenario in the first place. To many unknowns. I'm not one to physically correct a defensive/scared dog. Especially nit with my own hand as I have absolutely no interest in getting bit.


We might live in different worlds. I've had to engage in a lot of 'primitive' behavior to survive in service of ppl like you, therefore the reflex. I'm certainly not advocating physical abuse and unnecessary punishment. I believe grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck and pinning it down is a better idea than a smack. It is not ok for a dog to bite someone who is not an immediate threat! If one immediate, aversive punishment stops that behavior, good. 
OP, you seem like a responsible dog owner, good luck!


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> He doesn't guard food bowl, only high value treats. And i already worked on the trade-up to the point where i can walk by him and he be fine when he's chewing on a high value treat. Because he knows i won't take it. BUT, if something drops on the floor, he automatically thinks it's his. So to say something dangerous dropped on the floor, i couldn't take it from him because he would move away/growl if i tried, just as he does with a high value item. So what then? For now i have been working on trade-ups, but in an emergency situation for example, i can't 'trade up' . it's get the item/food/toxic household object NOW before he swallows it and becomes a danger.


Then teach him Leave It and Out. You proof the Leave It and the Out with corrections as needed. Those two things, along with a solid down, are not optional. 

But if you start messing with his food dish as you posted you were going to do above, you WILL have a guarding problem with that food bowl.


----------



## Castlemaid

> I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here. You should be able to stick your hand in your dog's food bowl while he/she is eating without worrying about getting bitten. You should be able to accidentally bump your dog while he/she is eating without worrying about them turning around and taking a chunk out of your calf.


Absolutely. If you have a good relationship with your dog, and he trusts you, and he knows you are fair to him, then you can, in an emergency, take his bowl away to check on something, and you should, accidently, be able to bump into him without worrying about being growled or snapped at. 

So focus on being fair, and developing trust. Constantly messing with his food, playing mind games and control games by giving him something and taking it away is not being fair. Bothering him on purpose by not leaving him eat in peace creates stress to him. He won't be able to relax, he'll feel like he has no choice but to guard his food, his space, his peace, because it is being systematically invaded and messed with. 

I test my dogs: I take their food away, they go "Huh? why did you do that for?" I see there are no guarding issues, I give the food back. No more testing, no need to. I want my dogs to know that I will respect their time, their food and their space. There is no need to guard anything, they can rest secure and care-free. If I accidently bump into them when they are eating, they know it means nothing and they are okay. If I bump into them EACH time they are eating, pretty soon, they'll be growling at me as I come near because they are tired of the interference. 

If I need to take something they are eating away from them, I know I can. They'l go Huh? what are you doing? and be more surprised than anything. If I take their food away each time they settle in for a meal, pretty soon, they'll feel that they can't trust me, (even though I give it back, it is still rude of me to mess with thier food each and every time!) and that is how the guarding begins when it wasn't even there in the first place. 

We get tons of new posts "I've always petted my dog and played with his food while he was eating to prevent resource guarding issues, but when I approached him today, he growled and snapped at me! Help!" - I can't recall one newbie posting the opposite: Help! I should have handled my dog and handled his food from the time he was puppy, because now he resource guards and I can't take anything away from him!" Never, not one such post. ( I could be wrong, LOL, but I've helped people in real life fix resource guarding by telling them to quit messing with their dog while the dog is eating - never the opposite scenario.)


----------



## Jax08

CatChandler said:


> I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here. You should be able to stick your hand in your dog's food bowl while he/she is eating without worrying about getting bitten. You should be able to accidentally bump your dog while he/she is eating without worrying about them turning around and taking a chunk out of your calf.
> 
> Dr Ian Dunbar has a really excellent in-depth article about resource guarding - Guarding Valued Objects | Dog Star Daily


No. You are not misunderstanding what I'm saying. STOP MESSING WITH YOUR DOG'S FOOD! It's really that simple. If you give it to him, leave it alone.

I don't care what Dr. Ian Dunbar says. 

I can do anything I want with my dog. I can walk by and smack him on the side as he's eating. I can take his bowl away. I use his food while tracking and pull him away from the dish to build drive. I HAVE stuck my hand in his mouth to to pull something out. I can do ANYTHING. Why? Because I've never made him feel insecure about his food or treats and taught him I'm a threat to his having them. It's that simple.


----------



## voodoolamb

ausdland said:


> We might live in different worlds. I've had to engage in a lot of 'primitive' behavior to survive in service of ppl like you, therefore the reflex. I'm certainly not advocating physical abuse and unnecessary punishment. I believe grabbing the dog by the scruff of the neck and pinning it down is a better idea than a smack. It is not ok for a dog to bite someone who is not an immediate threat! If one immediate, aversive punishment stops that behavior, good.
> OP, you seem like a responsible dog owner, good luck!


Uhhh excuse me? People like me? 

And I said PRIMATE. Not primitive. Primate as in the mammalian order. So I don't get the having the word primitive in quotes???

Here's the thing. Dogs and humans don't always agree on what is a threat. If the dog in question here was feeling insecure - An incorrectly timed or poorly deployed aversive punishment can very easily lead to a more defensive dog and bigger problems with aggression.

Giving advice to lay people to hit an aggressive dog is out right dangerous. For both human and canine.

Actually grabbing it by the neck and pinning it down isn't really a safe option either.


----------



## xWolf

Jax08 said:


> Then teach him Leave It and Out. You proof the Leave It and the Out with corrections as needed. Those two things, along with a solid down, are not optional.
> 
> But if you start messing with his food dish as you posted you were going to do above, you WILL have a guarding problem with that food bowl.


I never said i was going to mess with his food dish. i sometimes ADD treats to his food bowl so he knows people around food = positive


----------



## xWolf

voodoolamb said:


> Does he know "leave it?


no. i taught him 'off' as a command for leave it. for instance, if he has a toy in his mouth, a ball,etc, or if he's chewing on an item he shouldn't be "off" he gets it. tried "off" for food, he isn't getting it. i'm working on leave it though, e.g. if something drops on the floor i say "leave it" and if he does i've been rewarding him with something better


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> You posted 2 of the same link?
> 
> JG Makes it look so easy haha. I do make vader down-stay until i give him the 'ok' to eat. he's good at that. and he doesn't guard food bowl, just 'high value' treats. *Still, i'm gonna try the 'out' command tonight when i feed him. Because it's once he's got the food he thinks it's 'his' so to speak*.



My friend...this is messing with his food.

And EXCELLENT that you add food into his dish.


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> no. i taught him 'off' as a command for leave it. for instance, if he has a toy in his mouth, a ball,etc, or if he's chewing on an item he shouldn't be "off" he gets it. tried "off" for food, he isn't getting it. i'm working on leave it though, e.g. if something drops on the floor i say "leave it" and if he does i've been rewarding him with something better


So how you do this is you set up the exercise.

Put him on a leash. Leash short enough that he can't reach the food. 

Put a piece of food on the floor that you an easily cover with your foot when he goes for it.

Tell him "Leave It" If he goes for it, give him a light pop on the leash to get his attention. You do NOT say a word to him. This is about his actions, not you. When he looks at you, you reward him. Be excited about it. Be happy! No RBF!  

He only gets food from your hand during this exercise. Your reward line has to be high and in line with looking at you.

does that make sense?


----------



## xWolf

Jax08 said:


> My friend...this is messing with his food.
> 
> And EXCELLENT that you add food into his dish.


not really messing with his food, as i wouldn't be touching his food, just teaching him a command to 'stop' eating to prevent any disasters, just like how i make him down-stay before eating. But,upon advice of others,i'm teaching it via a toy /ball rather than food


----------



## xWolf

Jax08 said:


> So how you do this is you set up the exercise.
> 
> Put him on a leash. Leash short enough that he can't reach the food.
> 
> Put a piece of food on the floor that you an easily cover with your foot when he goes for it.
> 
> Tell him "Leave It" If he goes for it, give him a light pop on the leash to get his attention. You do NOT say a word to him. This is about his actions, not you. When he looks at you, you reward him. Be excited about it. Be happy! No RBF!
> 
> He only gets food from your hand during this exercise. Your reward line has to be high and in line with looking at you.
> 
> does that make sense?


Yep. Thanks  will try that tomorrow. i haven't been working on 'leave it' with a leash so that'll probably help.isn't leave it the same as 'out', really ? no need to learn both?


----------



## voodoolamb

xWolf said:


> Yep. Thanks  will try that tomorrow. i haven't been working on 'leave it' with a leash so that'll probably help.isn't leave it the same as 'out', really ? no need to learn both?


No.

"Out" means drop what is in his mouth.

"Leave it" means ignore what ever it is you are paying attention to.


----------



## Jax08

xWolf said:


> Yep. Thanks  will try that tomorrow. i haven't been working on 'leave it' with a leash so that'll probably help.isn't leave it the same as 'out', really ? no need to learn both?


No. Leave It is leave it alone right now!

Out is drop whatever is in your mouth right now! If you know how to use an e-collar, they work great to proof this command when it's time to proof it. Not before. Teach him what it means first.

Leave It is a beautiful little command. He will learn that it applies to whatever he is looking at. Food on the ground, a child playing, another dog...everything.


----------



## selzer

Nothing wrong with teaching the OUT command, but do it with a ball. Please do not do this with a high value treat. High value treats should be given and left alone.

Right now the dog is a pup or when a dog is new to you, they aren't sure if you are to be trusted. So, leave his food alone. 

If down the line -- 8 months from now, the dog is eating and you spill IB profin all over and some go in the dog's dish, the dog will trust you and let you take the dish and paw through it to find the pills and give it back. Because you have created tension when it comes to food and treats. He has no reason to believe you ever will. Or in the case of an emergency, you don't want it to be an issue, you can take his collar and walk him away from the food and crate him, then go through it. 

And if you teach the out with a ball, and you give the ball back or you throw the ball. If there is an emergency, down the line, when the dog has a bond with you. You see that instead of chewing on a pig's ear, he is actually chewing on a peach pit, you can give him the OUT command, take the pit, pitch it properly and then tell him that he was such a good boy you will give him a piece of cheese or liver or whatever is good in the fridge. The peach pit is history and the dog got a really good goodie for properly OUTting when you told him to. 

We do not create anxiety around the dog dish. I really think we need to stop over-doing it with treats for training. Treats for training is fine. But they ought to be phased out. And we should give the dog its dinner and let him eat it. The dog shouldn't have to stand on its head and spit nickels to get its meal. That's baloney. And some of us are building food drive by going overboard with treat training. We don't need to make it a big thing. But we do.


----------



## Themusicmanswife

One trainer had us teach the leave it by dropping some of the treats on the floor and walking with your dog engaged around it. Marking when the dog walks by and doesn't scarf up the treats. You can be working on engagement as well as leave it. My girl loves it when I drop a bunch of treats on the floor. It's training and fun! I've dropped many a thing and been happy for that training as I don't have to worry that she's going to run in and try to get whatever it is. She has also transferred that into a nice leave it for most everything else she encounters on the ground. She also knows leave it as a broad command. (Usually. She's just 1


----------



## dogfaeries

I teach "drop it" to all my dogs, and it came in handy when one of my Italian Greyhounds snatched a wren out of the air. He caught it, I said "drop it!" and he immediately opened his mouth and released the little bird. Pretty cool.


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> I do that anyway upon approach. make him sit and focus on me. but there are situations where there isn't space/unavoidable to move away (e.g crossing at a light)


LOL .... oh you mean like ... in the "Real World."


----------



## Chip18

xWolf said:


> From what i understand he just verbally reprimanded him. my boyfriend can be quite firm when he wants to be though, my dog knows when he's being told off. But i think at the time he was more concerned about the man,who apparently just laughed the situation off.


 See ... here's the rub, every dog is different. Some dogs need a "hard physical correction" to stop a behavior and some dogs ... a proper "Tongue Lashing is sufficient." Depends on the dog and the situation, you can stop some situations with a "verbal" and somethings ... you gotta get physical. Knowing when to take which approach ... is the "tricky part" well for most "Pet People" and I'm a member. 

Yes your boy friend made a mistake but his "mistake was" giving the dog the "opportunity to make a poor choice." Without prior "work put in" the dog does not what a good choice is?? "Make good choices dog" is the "goal" and for "some things," some dogs need help to do that better.

That said ... for all you know ... your dog may very well "remember the tongue lashing" and may very well "think" more carefully before making the same choice" going forward.

Ideally the goal is to get them in a "Frame of mind" where a tongue lashing or a minor correction will stop them cold!

Dogs that does not work for are typicallym dogs where the household rules if any were such that the dog was like:










A year of growing up like that ... and depending on the dog "someone" is going to have a problem.


----------



## Muskeg

How then should the OP have ideally handled her dog (were she right there) after he nipped the person patting him?

A good tongue lashing?

A leash pop?

A leash hanging?

A poke in the side?

A smack upside the head?

A therapy session asking him whether he was afraid of the big bad man, or if some puppyhood trauma was the cause of all this?

Really, I'm curious how others might have handled this- because no matter why the pup did what he did, he probably learned that it worked to get what he wanted, and will do it again given a chance unless he was given feedback immediately afterward that was of the right strength, timing and clarity. And even then ideally a correction happens before the dog has done the "bad" thing, as he's building up to act, not after action. 

We talk about punishment on this forum, but I don't often see anyone on the forum describe it. And when they do, well, we just saw what happened. 

I can't remember where I read it, but there was a dog training book I read a long time ago, where the dog tried something- maybe he was getting aggressive at a person, can't remember. Anyway, as soon as the dog started building up to the bad behavior, he slipped and fell somehow (not badly). It startled the dog so much, and was the perfect timing, the dog never showed that behavior again. Totally unplanned, but the author of the book used that as an example of how effective "one-time" learning can be.

In the book "Excelerated Learning" the author goes into detail of why this type of punishment is so effective. She says if you have to punish a dog for a behavior more than, I think three or so times, you are not punishing the dog effectively. Rethink your training.

I've seen this rule of three (or so) play out in my own training. I try to be very fair and clear with the dogs. 

I am totally against hitting dogs out of anger and because the human is out of control, but a strong, fair, clear physical correction is not a problem. I watch my dogs play- they are very physical with each other. I've seen adult dogs correct a pup- same idea. 

Physical correction with the hands may be a primate thing, but dogs are very attuned to the primate world and I think it is OK in many ways to expect them to adapt to us (as they so very well already have) rather than us trying to speak their language. 

They are much better at human than we at dog. Not saying there isn't validity to trying to communicate with the dog in a way he understands, but dogs certainly understand physical corrections. 

But but but- Voodoo is very right that getting physical with a dog out of anger, in a way the dog doesn't understand, if you don't have a good communiction system in place and relationship with the dog, and with poor understanding of dog training (etc.) could certainly backfire. And this may be why punishment isn't discussed much on forums...


----------



## Ripley2016

Muskeg said:


> How then should the OP have ideally handled her dog (were she right there) after he nipped the person patting him?
> 
> A good tongue lashing?
> 
> A leash pop?
> 
> A leash hanging?
> 
> A poke in the side?
> 
> A smack upside the head?
> 
> A therapy session asking him whether he was afraid of the big bad man, or if some puppyhood trauma was the cause of all this?
> 
> Really, I'm curious how others might have handled this- because no matter why the pup did what he did, he probably learned that it worked to get what he wanted, and will do it again given a chance unless he was given feedback immediately afterward that was of the right strength, timing and clarity. And even then ideally a correction happens before the dog has done the "bad" thing, as he's building up to act, not after action.
> 
> We talk about punishment on this forum, but I don't often see anyone on the forum describe it. And when they do, well, we just saw what happened.
> 
> I can't remember where I read it, but there was a dog training book I read a long time ago, where the dog tried something- maybe he was getting aggressive at a person, can't remember. Anyway, as soon as the dog started building up to the bad behavior, he slipped and fell somehow (not badly). It startled the dog so much, and was the perfect timing, the dog never showed that behavior again. Totally unplanned, but the author of the book used that as an example of how effective "one-time" learning can be.
> 
> In the book "Excelerated Learning" the author goes into detail of why this type of punishment is so effective. She says if you have to punish a dog for a behavior more than, I think three or so times, you are not punishing the dog effectively. Rethink your training.
> 
> I've seen this rule of three (or so) play out in my own training. I try to be very fair and clear with the dogs.
> 
> I am totally against hitting dogs out of anger and because the human is out of control, but a strong, fair, clear physical correction is not a problem. I watch my dogs play- they are very physical with each other. I've seen adult dogs correct a pup- same idea.
> 
> Physical correction with the hands may be a primate thing, but dogs are very attuned to the primate world and I think it is OK in many ways to expect them to adapt to us (as they so very well already have) rather than us trying to speak their language.
> 
> They are much better at human than we at dog. Not saying there isn't validity to trying to communicate with the dog in a way he understands, but dogs certainly understand physical corrections.
> 
> But but but- Voodoo is very right that getting physical with a dog out of anger, in a way the dog doesn't understand, if you don't have a good communiction system in place and relationship with the dog, and with poor understanding of dog training (etc.) could certainly backfire. And this may be why punishment isn't discussed much on forums...


Well said.


----------



## voodoolamb

> Physical correction with the hands may be a primate thing, but dogs are very attuned to the primate world and I think it is OK in many ways to expect them to adapt to us (as they so very well already have) rather than us trying to speak their language.
> 
> They are much better at human than we at dog. Not saying there isn't validity to trying to communicate with the dog in a way he understands, but dogs certainly understand physical corrections.


If physical corrections by human hands were effective and didn't have risks with increasing aggression or fearful behavior then I imagine that all the balanced trainers of the world would recommend that over the use of prongs and e collars. 

When is the last time you heard a legitimate responsible trainer say to whack the dog upside the head instead of giving it a pop with a prong? Do any of the pros often mentioned on this board make a habit of using their hands to deliver physical corrections? 

I have nothing against physical corrections. Appropriate ones atleast. But to advocate hitting an already revved up reactive dogs with your bare hands? It is stupid. Redirected aggression anyone? 

I posted the uni of pa study up in the thread. Out of all the aversive techniques hitting and kicking elicited the highest aggressive response. 43% of the dogs responded to being hit with aggression. It is dangerous. 

And that's my issue. 

Advice on this thread is getting scarey dangerous. Telling an inexperienced owner they don't need a trainer to deal with their dog with a bite history. Telling them they hope that the dog got hit immediately after the incident. Telling them to yank and crank their dog into obedience. Grabbing the dog's neck and pinning it to the ground...

NONE of us have seen this dog. We don't know if this is fear aggression. If it is a thyroid imbalance induced rage syndrome aggression. If the dog is just getting too big for its britches. Or even if the bite was just the dog is displaying normal puppy/herding breed nipping and landsharking. When dealing with aggression and reactivity - the cause of it, as well as the dogs temperament is paramount in dealing with it succesfully. You wouldn't treat a dog growling out of pain the way you would one doing it out of social rank.

My hands are the source of all good things to my dogs. They give pets. They give treats. They hold the tug. They do not descend upon the dog and cause pain. On the rare occasions a physical correction is needed I choose to use prongs or e collars. They are more precise. They have less likely hood of causing long term physical damage. They can be administered from a distance keeping my fleshy bits safe. And they prevent my dog from becoming hand shy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

In the past, I have owned timid and / or shy dogs, but none that were fear aggressive. I think that where the fear aggression comes from is important. If the dog is genetically fearful, you can only suppress or desensitize this fear to a certain degree. It will always be a fearful dog. If the dog is genetically a stable dog that caught a few bad breaks, I think this dog would be far more workable and this type of dog may be able to withstand a few corrections. 

If I had been in OP's SO's shoes when this puppy nipped, I might have verbally corrected mostly out of a startle reflex on my part if the nip was unexpected. None of us have evaluated OP's dog so it is hard to say if the nip were that situation. If, on the other hand, the response were expected, it would not have happened on my watch.

I really just don't think that physical punishment is the way to go with a fearful dog. I think forming a strong bond and working on trust will accomplish so much more. If a truly fearful dog learns that if it encounters something that it fears, and that one of the few people that it trusts in this world, just might compound its fear when the dog is feeling threatened, it can only result in a serious erosion of whatever trust exists. Alternatively, IMO, a strong sense of trust will allow the dog to know that it can rely on the person that it is bonded with and will not have to react or lash out. 

I favor long term desentization that does not push this puppy over its threshhold in lieu of corrections if this a genetically fearful dog. In the meantime, a muzzle is a must. Nobody has the right to jeopardize other, innocent peoples' safety and welfare.


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> How then should the OP have ideally handled her dog (were she right there) after he nipped the person patting him?
> 
> A good tongue lashing?
> 
> A leash pop?
> 
> A leash hanging?
> 
> A poke in the side?
> 
> A smack upside the head?
> 
> A therapy session asking him whether he was afraid of the big bad man, or if some puppyhood trauma was the cause of all this?
> 
> Really, I'm curious how others might have handled this- because no matter why the pup did what he did, he probably learned that it worked to get what he wanted, and will do it again given a chance unless he was given feedback immediately afterward that was of the right strength, timing and clarity. And even then ideally a correction happens before the dog has done the "bad" thing, as he's building up to act, not after action.
> 
> We talk about punishment on this forum, but I don't often see anyone on the forum describe it. And when they do, well, we just saw what happened.
> 
> I can't remember where I read it, but there was a dog training book I read a long time ago, where the dog tried something- maybe he was getting aggressive at a person, can't remember. Anyway, as soon as the dog started building up to the bad behavior, he slipped and fell somehow (not badly). It startled the dog so much, and was the perfect timing, the dog never showed that behavior again. Totally unplanned, but the author of the book used that as an example of how effective "one-time" learning can be.
> 
> In the book "Excelerated Learning" the author goes into detail of why this type of punishment is so effective. She says if you have to punish a dog for a behavior more than, I think three or so times, you are not punishing the dog effectively. Rethink your training.
> 
> I've seen this rule of three (or so) play out in my own training. I try to be very fair and clear with the dogs.
> 
> I am totally against hitting dogs out of anger and because the human is out of control, but a strong, fair, clear physical correction is not a problem. I watch my dogs play- they are very physical with each other. I've seen adult dogs correct a pup- same idea.
> 
> Physical correction with the hands may be a primate thing, but dogs are very attuned to the primate world and I think it is OK in many ways to expect them to adapt to us (as they so very well already have) rather than us trying to speak their language.
> 
> They are much better at human than we at dog. Not saying there isn't validity to trying to communicate with the dog in a way he understands, but dogs certainly understand physical corrections.
> 
> But but but- Voodoo is very right that getting physical with a dog out of anger, in a way the dog doesn't understand, if you don't have a good communiction system in place and relationship with the dog, and with poor understanding of dog training (etc.) could certainly backfire. And this may be why punishment isn't discussed much on forums...


WOW??? That's "kinda harsh" and ... I'm not in disagreement with it. But ... in the situation that created this event ... the "OP" as you say, was "not" hands on. Therefore ... she was unable to exercise "any" of the options you laid out ... but the boyfriend as it happens did chose one of them.

So I was trying to help make lemonade out of lemons as it were. > 

Oh well spent to much time mulling it over so as I am want to say ... here I go again!


Of those options which I do like by the way ... and yes the OP needs to give consideration to a proper correction "if" required. I say "if" because I have never had to correct "Rocky" or any dog for inappropriate behavior with people. With the guys I have worked with keeping people out of there face for however long seems to be sufficient to give them enough time to learn to deal. The dog "should" be much less likely to go "off" unexpectedly in anycase. But ... let's say he does. 

By and large JQP has no Idea what "Hanging the Dog is so that's out.

Heel tap or finger poke yes they could work but kinda tricky, and not practical if the timing is off and most likely one would lose focus on the dog or the intended target?? It would best to choose an option that could stop the dog in mid motion.

A proper hard collar check "Sideways" could work assuming the OP is used to the sideways thing?? Don't know??? 

So I'm gonna say the "David and Kohler option!" A sharp pop with the loose end of the leash across the bridge of the nose! And actually I suppose one could do both, left hand should be holding the leash with 6 to 12 inches of slack. If the dog makes an inappropriate lunge forward the slacks taken up anyway but you could pull him towards you and whack him with the loose end of the leash at the same time. 

When I did the leash pop on the head with Rocky I just popped him once on the top of the hit (he was Hobby Horsing) in front of barking dogs behind fences (Wobbler thing.) While I spoke to the neighbor I remember he looked at me like "What The Heck" and just stopped that crap cold! And yes I only did it once! 

For people issues, a "hard pop" across the bridge of the nose would most likely drive home a "Stronger Point!" Hopefully it won't be required but yes something to think about.


----------



## David Winners

Here's an important thing about corrections. The dog must understand why it is receiving a correction, particularly if it's a fearful dog. It is going to associate that correction with something, and you had better be sure that it is understood. If the reason is clear, such as a dog refusing a known behavior, then the correction works to reduce the likelihood that the behavior (or refusal of the behavior) will occur again. 

BUT, if the dog is being corrected in a way that isn't clear to the dog, the wrong associations could be made and then you get unintended results. This lack of clarity can be from lack of training (dog doesn't really know the command), lack of experience (command isn't generalized), or state of mind. Correcting a dog in a fearful or excited state can be dangerous to you and your goals. If the dog is excited, you can get redirection (a bite) or the correction can be ineffective. If the dog is in a fearful state, the correction can be overwhelming and just add to the anxiety of the dog.

If you choose to use corrections for training, it is important to take all this into consideration when applying a correction. Don't just try and correct away a behavior. Show the dog what you want, in a fair and controlled environment. Allow it to generalize this behavior in multiple environments and states of mind. Give the dog the tools it needs to make good decisions before you expect the dog to make good decisions.


I think tools were created for our convenience. It probably started with a leash, so we didn't have to walk around holding the dog by the scruff of the neck. It is very difficult to give heel position corrections with a finger poke. It's hard to use a prong for recall infractions at 100m, It's pretty difficult to use anything but an e-collar for NePoPo position changes. Tools make training more convenient and safer.


----------



## David Winners

Muskeg said:


> Anyway, as soon as the dog started building up to the bad behavior, he slipped and fell somehow (not badly). It startled the dog so much, and was the perfect timing, the dog never showed that behavior again. Totally unplanned, but the author of the book used that as an example of how effective "one-time" learning can be.
> 
> In the book "Excelerated Learning" the author goes into detail of why this type of punishment is so effective. She says if you have to punish a dog for a behavior more than, I think three or so times, you are not punishing the dog effectively. Rethink your training.


Single event learning is very powerful. The risks with this type of correction attempted by an inexperienced trainer are that it is poorly timed, too weak or strong to be effective, or misunderstood by the dog and associated with some other stimulus or behavior than was intended.

Get it right and it works. Get it wrong and you may have a lot of stuff to fix. You see this a lot with people that grab a $75 e-collar, slap it on the dog and push the button whenever the dog does something they don't like, such as blowing off a recall command (that the dog doesn't really understand) while the dog is sniffing at a tree in the back yard. Now the dog still won't recall and is fearful of trees.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Chip18 said:


> Oh I know the two of them are, I was "trying" to say as "popular as each other" on here.
> 
> And yea the Bare Foot Guy, Josh Moran, I thought I saw something that indicated he had a relationship with Tylor Muto, in the past??? If such were the case .. maybe they broke up cause Josh, refused to put on shoes???
> 
> Yes the links ... digital pack rat! Save to Chrome (New), Save to Pocket, Readitlater and Fresh Start. Youtube saves history so that's useful directly on there site
> 
> All I try and do is point people in the direction of "Real Trainers." JQP doesn't really care about "nuances" of approach as long as it's not "Yank and Crank" they don't care, all they want is for there dog to *"not be acting like a fool!" *
> 
> But I don't know maybe I make it to easy for folks to critique Jeff?? But hey if folks don't like that "clip" they find something else here:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidK9Training/search?query=resource+guarding
> 
> 
> But ... that seems a bit "excessive" even for me! People just need to know there are solutions for there problems out there and if they see what "solutions" look like, they can "decide" if it's something they can do??
> 
> 
> But .... having said that, I suppose now the "arguments" will be whether or not people can indeed "decide" for themselves?? I don't know ... maybe people should consult a trainer first and the trainer can help them "decide" if "deciding" for themselves is a wise decision???


I think Moran was an apprentice of Muto. I don't have a big opinion about Gellman. I haven't watched that much of his stuff. I would pay big bucks to interview a couple hundred past clients with these really aggressive dogs either toward people or dog aggression, and find out what happened once the owners were alone with the dogs again and was the change reliable and long term. If it was...then I want to know more.

My rules of engagement change somewhat depending on the issue and severity. I don't like the use of pure force in a teaching phase of learning new behaviors. 

Anyway my only 2 things about JG in that video were: #1 an unskilled handler could get really hurt trying to replicate what they saw him do on that video #2 I personally don't like to see a dog acting like it just got whaled on (cautious, slow movements, extreme tail tuck), what happens when someone the dog isn't afraid of feeds him? I try not to get into too much black or white thinking about methods of training because I drank the pure positive kool aid and that was a mistake. So I like to keep an open mind. Maybe what he did to that dog was warranted and the right thing. Especially if the dog gets a pardon from the needle? I don't know, I would need to know what was done to the dog and what kind of life the dog might get as a result


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Steve Strom said:


> Why do you want to? Everyone on the side of mess with his food always says "What if?" Well, what if what? Don't put anything in his bowl he isn't supposed to eat. Trust is very general with your overall relationship. Why pick a fight over something you don't have to? I've never owned a dog that I had to take his meal away from. Food dropped on the floor? "Leave it." Its simple.


Well here is a not super likely thing but it just happened yesterday. I put down both my dog's breakfast, asked hubby to watch them and left the room. My female finished and came to find me. Male felt left out so he abandoned his meal and came to find me and the other dog, we are a unit and normally he would not get left behind while eating. Crafty female slips away and goes to eat his meal, which I caught her doing. She is super sensitive and on perscription diet, a d I cant let her eat his stuff. So I took it away from her. 

But to illustrate Steve Strom's point she is 9 1/2 and I think that might be the first time in her life I had to reach in and take a bowl of food from her. She has no problem with this and never has. Also this whole scene could have been easily prevented with better management.

When we were recently on vacation staying in a cottage with my husband's niece and her two kids. My pup has not had a ton of contact with children. There was nowhere to close the dogs into at meal time so I told both children to be sure and not approach the dogs ehioe they were eating (the female would not care but I couldnt say for certain about the pup, why chance it). I fed them in the side of one room and stood guard over the doorway (which had no door) to be sure no kids forgot and ran by


----------



## Steve Strom

Yeah, I think of leave it as leave it whether its a ball or a steak C.Girl, and I don't think the management is anything difficult.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think Moran was an apprentice of Muto. I don't have a big opinion about Gellman. I haven't watched that much of his stuff. I would pay big bucks to interview a couple hundred past clients with these really aggressive dogs either toward people or dog aggression, and find out what happened once the owners were alone with the dogs again and was the change reliable and long term. If it was...then I want to know more.
> 
> My rules of engagement change somewhat depending on the issue and severity. I don't like the use of pure force in a teaching phase of learning new behaviors.
> 
> Anyway my only 2 things about JG in that video were: #1 an unskilled handler could get really hurt trying to replicate what they saw him do on that video #2 I personally don't like to see a dog acting like it just got whaled on (cautious, slow movements, extreme tail tuck), what happens when someone the dog isn't afraid of feeds him? I try not to get into too much black or white thinking about methods of training because I drank the pure positive kool aid and that was a mistake. So I like to keep an open mind. Maybe what he did to that dog was warranted and the right thing. Especially if the dog gets a pardon from the needle? I don't know, I would need to know what was done to the dog and what kind of life the dog might get as a result


Aww yess ...and that poor White Shepard with the tucked tail ... so sad. 

No ones seemed to address the main point??? Gave "myself" a "slight tug sideways" .. so gonna go "back" on pointe. But ... maybe later ... :smile2:


----------



## Chip18

David Winners said:


> Here's an important thing about corrections. The dog must understand why it is receiving a correction, particularly if it's a fearful dog. It is going to associate that correction with something, and you had better be sure that it is understood. If the reason is clear, such as a dog refusing a known behavior, then the correction works to reduce the likelihood that the behavior (or refusal of the behavior) will occur again.
> 
> BUT, if the dog is being corrected in a way that isn't clear to the dog, the wrong associations could be made and then you get unintended results. This lack of clarity can be from lack of training (dog doesn't really know the command), lack of experience (command isn't generalized), or state of mind. Correcting a dog in a fearful or excited state can be dangerous to you and your goals. If the dog is excited, you can get redirection (a bite) or the correction can be ineffective. If the dog is in a fearful state, the correction can be overwhelming and just add to the anxiety of the dog.
> 
> If you choose to use corrections for training, it is important to take all this into consideration when applying a correction. Don't just try and correct away a behavior. Show the dog what you want, in a fair and controlled environment. Allow it to generalize this behavior in multiple environments and states of mind. Give the dog the tools it needs to make good decisions before you expect the dog to make good decisions.


Yes ...."this!" Gonna use your reply to get back on track here David." 

I was "trying" to head there when this train started to go all wobbly and stuff. And I kept hitting the throttle (when given the opportunity) as it were so yeah ... my bad! But on the brakes now! 


So not saying "this" is the only way but ... it is "my" thing and I tend to think "anyone can do it??" They just need to know how.

The "approach" the "OP" taking is the one I took and the one I use with "every dog" I work with. And it has worked out fine for me. It is basically what I'd always done anyway. My "other dogs" Yes ... please do, was "always" my reply when asked to pet. They luv'd people so ... nothing to think about! 

But ... "Rocky" he is where I had to "Work with the dog in front of me." And "apparently" him and "people" ... "not" the same as my "other dogs" ... what to do?? My goals were to "out think" him and a "zero bite policy" and I like to KISS.

I went online and found "Leerburgh" and "Who pets ..." seemed kinda "insane" but I thought about it?? And for me .. well yeah I kinda sorta do that anyway?? Except as I said I'd always said yes?? But ... what if I said .... "NO??" Hmm makes sense?? I'll go with that and "add a slight spin" and be more "assertive" in "keeping people out of his space." 

"Show him what I want" and his job was to do "nothing!" He got that and because "Rocky is a "Wobble Dog" I had no requirement for him to Sit or Down, his job was merely to stand there calmly beside me or behind me. As long as he's calm ... "we're good!" And because "Rocky was a "Wobble Dog" a "slight tug sideways" was not a good option for me?? Hence ... what I understood to do was not "dog" appropriate anyway.

And inasmuch as training a dog on a leash with my tool of choice was not an issue, I never knew I had a "correction gap??"
Never had a people situation or a pulling dog (once I got it right) so "corrections" were never an "issue on walks."

Until we started to encounter ... other dogs behind fences when I stopped and talked to other dog owners, ... and not over the top but "annoying" behaviour with him. Thus ... my question to you "David" way back when.  

The leash pop on the head thing ... was unknown to me and was the "Perfect Solution!" I don't know "everything" but I find people that know what I don't! So ... "technically" ... "I did find a Trainer!" :grin2:

I liked it worked out fine. The dog thing was "annoying by comparison to his behaviour with people which was to do nothing. 

So for "me" no Sit or Stay or Down, required. So "just stand there and do "Nothing" became my default "requirement" with dogs. And that "approach" If it was just limited to "Rocky??" I'd think OK just him then?? But I've done it several times with "problem dogs." Deer dog being my prime example! And him I took from my "Struggling" friend, watching him strain to hold the dog back was getting on my last nerve! That story is my in SLL thread ... but yeah "me and Boxers" ... those guys seem to be my thing! Have not worked with a female Boxer (other than Struddell) though ... in Boxer Land the females are extra nutty!


But ... a "Trainer" and for purposes here we'll rule out Dogs with issues that need to be "Stopped right freaking now ... first!" That aside what does a "Dog Trainer do???" He shows "you" how to train your dog and points out "mistakes you're making!" Helps you come up with solutions based on his experience with dogs. It's up to you the "owner of the dog" to follow his instructions "correctly! And ... many folks don't. So there is that. 

Oh and "xwolf" ... for the first time every ... getting sucked into a "side debate" caused me to render "inappropriate advise!"

Far as I'm concerned ... that is the first time ever and ... worthy of a "Houndie" ... but I've been told by a "mod" that my "use of "memes" was "annoying" ... so ... you got screwed there! I will uh "ponder that rule???" (insert appropriate meme here): ..... 

Continuing ... and employing "KISS." The "correction" you should be doing anyway ... is a "Slight Tug Sideways" if a dog has done something wrong on a walk. That "assumes of course issues with "structured walks??" That would be the "Communication" the dog would expect???" You might need to step it up under the appropriate circumstances if a "normal correction" was not sufficient to correct a "behavior." Something more like that .. is what I should have said. But yeah ... suggesting to* "pre prepare a correction" *was uh "insane!" So "my bad." Creativity gone wild as it were.

So ... use a muzzle if you need to. An unsure owner and an "unpredictable dog are not a good combo." Working towards a goal with a plan .. is a better choice. And the fact that he bit someone most likely means you should use one anyway. It's good for the dog and helps him to relax (IE less likely to act like a fool!) And you, relax if you know he can't bite someone. I used one for awhile myself, a "Bubble Dog Protocal" *a dog that needs to be muzzled to be save in public while being trained not to be a "fool!" . 
*
And yes, the fact of the matter is he was "given the opportunity to make a poor choice by someone else ... but now you he may be more likely to make "poor choices" if given the opportunity again so "show him" a better option.

So ... "assuming" the muzzle is used ... what to look for?? Keeping people consistently out of his and having the dog "Sit/Down or Stand behind you "calmly" is the first step. 

And your goal is a "this old bit look from the dog." Boring and calm is what I look for (I don't do the focus thing myself but in anycase) ... your developing a baseline look, for him around people,
see anything different if you stop and talk ... "walk away!" "Sorry he's in training" and "leave the situation." 

When you see that bored with people look consistently, you can drop the use of the "muzzle." At that point your "dog gets it!" Then ... you keep doing the same old thing. But, now ... your dog gets it! I do "nothing" if my owner stops and talks! He knows what is expected. 

I'd still keep the "No Pet Policy" and still keep about five feet of distance as a baseline adjust as needed but now the body block becomes an option. If your dog is anything other than calm ... a "slight tug sideways" should snap him out of that and a "oh sorry" forgot response (from the dog) should follow! It should now be simple because you've shown/trained him how to behave in that instance. And you'll understand what he is "suppose to look like when he is calm" around people because you've seen it ..."that's the goal." 

And ... since you don't have a trainer ... you don't have anyone to point this out! The person that was "complaining about you "petting your dog??" Well yes they were "off base" but ... an important point here. 

I don't know if your dog is "aggressive or insecure" I don't "know if mine was??" Although I'm sure it was " H/A ... certainly with company in the home it was!" But whatever, what I do know was my dog was "unpredictable" around people ... good enough for me! "No pet (policy) it is! 


But the "petting thing while he is with you "working on this??" Yeah ... no! Don't do that ... your "feeding" his insecurity by telling him in effect "Oh it's OK, that bad person won't hurt you," that is not good!

Other than Sit Down or Stay if you stop to talk (to people,) you need not say a word to the dog. His job is to learn to freaking "Deal with it dog!" You can't coddle him into doing that ... pretty much that simple! 

I “will” body block people as required with a "bite threat dog.” I consider it a part of a “Zero Bite” policy myself.

And how will you know when your dog is *"safe to pet"* for the first time??

Well that s a little tricky! I've told the story of when that actually happened with "Rocky" in my "What would my dog do thread." But ... behind the curtain ...it's uh complicated. 

As I say "I am not a "Pro" how to train a dog to "tolerate people" I find fairly simply. Keep people out of his face and he "can't bite them! That's pretty straightforward. But to actually allow them in?? 
Well ... I'd never actually done that?? Rocky was my first H/A dog.

Part of my decision (of when) was easy based on what I'd done, seen and understood (now) about him. The first time I said yes, .. there was no cold hard stare, no low growl and he looked the same as he always did when I stopped to talk ... calm ... no different, then he always did when I stopped to talk with people.

Continuing ... I had seen the guy approaching us from the distance ... no biggie. I crossed the street and continued to walk that direction. Then the guy crossed the street again clearly intent on intercepting us!! Awww crap!! Was my first thought ... here we go again! So I stop, Rocky stops the guy is going to approach. I step in front of "Rocky" and "Rocky" is like "whatever." 

Turns out he's a GSD, guy so we talk and I explain the situation to him. I figure he'll just say "I understand" or maybe "cop an attitude" or say "Nice Dog" and go away but he doesn't ... instead he ask me* "Well is he safe now??"* That I was not prepared for??? 

Because I was a "Pro" pet person ( I changed that only because of Rocky) so "not pet" was not my policy and that's why Leerburgh's "No Pet" seemed kinda extreme?? 

I was more than willing to "insure" I kept people out of "Rocky's face! But the one thing I'd not been prepared to do was to lie about him??

And I knew I could not honestly say "he's not safe to pet!" So I took a deep breath, turned around and looked at "Rocky" (who knew the guy was there by the way :wink2: ) I looked down at him and saw the same old "whatever look I'd seen many many times before." I turned back towards the guy and said "sure" and stepped aside.

He came forward "petted" Rocky on the head and said "nice dog you have there." Rocky did not seem to care one way or the other "good enough!" My job was done and proofed! :grin2:

Rocky has met many many people since then! My policy is still to say no ""on account of I'm not out there to win hearts and minds." But "apparently" Rocky did not get the memo?? (that would have been a meme ...just sayin)

Lot's of the locals know him. The kids in the day care all say "Hi Rocky" as we pass, and an ex vet (Army I think) Stopped us to inquire ... the guy had to be a K9 handler because Rocky Luv'd him, actually moved to him instead of staying where he was?? I place no demands on him these days, he usually just stays in one spot. He's usually off leash now. But that guy he liked! That was new, as he's usually pretty aloof?? 

And we were stalked by a UPS driver in his trck!! He stopped us and handed me treats to give to Rocky!! And said I see you guys all the time "You're a good owner and that's a good dog you have there!" 

I still prefer to say "no" myself because I have trouble letting go off the pass. But apparently "Rocky" did a long time ago?? We are an odd couple as it were.

Bt ... "I thought my dog was friendly people and there dogs" ... don't get me started!!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

OP, you got some good advice in the beginning of this thread about engagement (having your dog be engaged with and focused on you). There are some self study courses on Leerburg.com you could watch and begin implementing. 

Give the dog a break from being out on the end of the leash being freaked out by the world all by himself. he will feel happy and safe looking at and engaging with you. If you can't communicate with him it will be awfully hard to change behavior and you need his attention to be able to communicate.

I read back over this thend quickly and saw a couple of good posts I think by voodoo lamb that I recommend reading again will try to check back later not on my phone.

Chip: No more Houndie!!? How disappointing


----------



## Muskeg

I'll try to be short. 

A good trainer can use a stick to correct a dog, the same stick to play with the dog (fetch or tug), and the same stick to pat the dog. 

I understand giving a person over the internet advice to smack the dog for bad behavior, with no explanation and never seeing the dog is probably a bad idea.

But, really guys? You have never effectively and fairly corrected a dog with your hand or body? 

One thing I respect and like about Cesar Millan is that he doesn't usually go to tools first. He uses his body and hands to communicate with the dog. What you see is what you get (yes, the good and bad, but I don't want to sideline into Cesar). Trainers who stand there holding a remote e-collar device. You can't physically see or understand what they are doing to "hurt" the dog. The e-collar could hurt the dog much worse than Cesar with his pokes or foot taps. And I guess people like to get upset about e-collars, too. 

But... people. Something has to happen to make the dog change his behavior. Especially if that behavior includes barking or trying to bite dogs, people, cars, bikes, etc. That's a self rewarding feedback loop. It gets easier and more fun the more it happens. Treats are NOT going to cut it for most of our high drive, genetically aggressive GSD (types). I have travelled the dead end road of "treats and attention" (only) myself. Not effective and incredibly frustrating.

I am not perfect- I am certainly open to new and effective ways of dog training- but I do have a very solid grasp of the science of how dogs learn. So I can see through the smokescreen when it comes to a lot of trainers out there.


----------



## Muskeg

OP- the best I can do for you is to recommend some reading and videos to get you started. Then it's up to you on how you want to proceed with your dog.

Read the two books my trainer mentor had me read to start off- "Excel-erated Learning" by Pam Reid and "Culture Clash" (the first section). I also love "Training Lead Dogs" by Lee Fishbeck, it is more of a booklet, but the guy knows dogs and know how to give a fair correction. I went through the step by step "lead dog" training with my malinois. Worked wonders, we actually raced at pretty high levels in skijor. 

If you can take the time to read and fully digest these books, especially Ms. Reid's book, you will at least have a solid foundation to build on. 

You Tube videos will rarely if ever give you the science, they are mostly magic tricks. But I do like Jamie Penrith's YouTube lectures on dog training "basics". You can look him up. He doesn't give you smoke and mirrors. 




For attention and obedience or sport/protection work, you can't beat Ivan Balabanov. I also like Stonnie Dennis. Stonnie is hilarious, but pretty good. Not a training vid but hilarious. Aww little malinois puppies. 




And for more light reading, I agree with most of the posts from this trainer, here. He writes very well on leash pressure and aggression in the GSD types, here's a nice post on balanced training, but he has a blog you can go to and read through. Good stuff. https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/06/12/in-defense-of-balanced-training/

Truly, best of luck to you and your dog. Your dog is very young, you can make drastic changes in his behavior, early.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well here is a not super likely thing but it just happened yesterday. I put down both my dog's breakfast, asked hubby to watch them and left the room. My female finished and came to find me. Male felt left out so he abandoned his meal and came to find me and the other dog, we are a unit and normally he would not get left behind while eating. Crafty female slips away and goes to eat his meal, which I caught her doing. She is super sensitive and on perscription diet, a d I cant let her eat his stuff. So I took it away from her.
> 
> But to illustrate Steve Strom's point she is 9 1/2 and I think that might be the first time in her life I had to reach in and take a bowl of food from her. She has no problem with this and never has. Also this whole scene could have been easily prevented with better management.
> 
> When we were recently on vacation staying in a cottage with my husband's niece and her two kids. My pup has not had a ton of contact with children. There was nowhere to close the dogs into at meal time so I told both children to be sure and not approach the dogs ehioe they were eating (the female would not care but I couldnt say for certain about the pup, why chance it). I fed them in the side of one room and stood guard over the doorway (which had no door) to be sure no kids forgot and ran by


Well that is a good "Real World" example .. I tend to grab for "extremes" so I figured yeah ... a dog jumping over a 6 foot gate to attack a food prep working ... that should drive the point home! Mixed success as it were. 

The point I was "trying to make is" the "OP" is aware of an "issue" to whatever degree the dog has?? It's something he has "observed" and I think it would be "prudent" to address it in "some manner."

Heck if it is indeed "no big deal" then he can do just fine with Victoria Stilwell I imagine???

By and large most of the "actual advise" seemed to be ... leave the dog alone when he eats. I suppose in a world where ..."crap doesn't happen" that works out fine?? 

I've never had a dog with resource guarding issues, those of us who do well "most things right" in training a dog don't see a lot of "posters) issues!

But this poster saw it caused it?? And saw it early and is trying to figure out a good approach! Yeah I should have said something more like that??

But nope I saw the post and thought it over ... pondered carefully and concluded (Despite Selzer's sage advise in the past) that "Nope" ... a full going "Nuclear" is the way to go!! >

Aww well live and ... "continue to learn."


----------



## Jax08

I think most people don't understand that resource guarding is a perfectly natural instinct. It's possession. It's a survival instinct. Some dogs have a higher degree of possession naturally. It's desired in working line. It makes the dog WANT the sleeve.

In some dogs, it's created thru insecurity. I want my food but you keep taking it. Think of it this way...if I walked up and stuck my hand in your spaghetti, how would you react after the 3rd time? After the 5th?

It's all perfectly natural. The problem comes in with the introduction of humans. We can't allow this for safety reasons. So you need to change the mindset of the dog. Change the mindset, eliminate the problem.


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> I'll try to be short.
> 
> A good trainer can use a stick to correct a dog, the same stick to play with the dog (fetch or tug), and the same stick to pat the dog.
> 
> I understand giving a person over the internet advice to smack the dog for bad behavior, with no explanation and never seeing the dog is probably a bad idea.
> 
> But, really guys? You have never effectively and fairly corrected a dog with your hand or body?


 I was going to say I understand the argument but I don't tend to train dogs by hitting them ... gonna say it but then ... the "Bonker" thing! So yeah ... I guess I'm out on the "pure no hitting the dog thing. 

But while it maybe a small group those of us that get it get it. Don't necessarily do it but understand the concept. 


There is a thread on the subject. Unfortunately it's one of the rare things I lost track of but yeah it was about using your hands to "hit" a dog." I read it and may have chimed in don't remember?? I understand the "concept" and that (Trainer) explained how it works and can train his clients to do a "Lay Hands on the Dog Thing" to his clients if they are so inclined to do so!

It all made sense to me but to others ... yeah not so much. You can PM me for his name of you like ... no point in bring it up again on here.


----------



## Jax08

Muskeg said:


> I'll try to be short.
> 
> A good trainer can use a stick to correct a dog, the same stick to play with the dog (fetch or tug), and the same stick to pat the dog.


.

Excellent point. It's how you condition it. Is the dog in drive? What is your attitude.

Heeling and lost my crop AGAIN! So we pulled out a bamboo clatter stick. The nutbag LOVED it! Ohhh hit me again! It makes such cool noises! yay!! I'm so happy!


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> I'll try to be short.
> 
> A good trainer can use a stick to correct a dog, the same stick to play with the dog (fetch or tug), and the same stick to pat the dog.
> 
> I understand giving a person over the internet advice to smack the dog for bad behavior, with no explanation and never seeing the dog is probably a bad idea.
> 
> But, really guys? You have never effectively and fairly corrected a dog with your hand or body?
> 
> One thing I respect and like about Cesar Millan is that he doesn't usually go to tools first. He uses his body and hands to communicate with the dog. What you see is what you get (yes, the good and bad, but I don't want to sideline into Cesar). Trainers who stand there holding a remote e-collar device. You can't physically see or understand what they are doing to "hurt" the dog. The e-collar could hurt the dog much worse than Cesar with his pokes or foot taps. And I guess people like to get upset about e-collars, too.
> 
> But... people. Something has to happen to make the dog change his behavior. Especially if that behavior includes barking or trying to bite dogs, people, cars, bikes, etc. That's a self rewarding feedback loop. It gets easier and more fun the more it happens. Treats are NOT going to cut it for most of our high drive, genetically aggressive GSD (types). I have travelled the dead end road of "treats and attention" (only) myself. Not effective and incredibly frustrating.
> 
> I am not perfect- I am certainly open to new and effective ways of dog training- but I do have a very solid grasp of the science of how dogs learn. So I can see through the smokescreen when it comes to a lot of trainers out there.


LOL ... life is so full of "irony." 

Ironically enough (and maybe I flatter myself) but "philosophically" you and I are in full agreement. 

Even down to Cesar ... if people can't see "any" value in anything he does ... well it's their loss. 

But we're pretty much in agreement right, down to the ... "The only thing three dog trainers will agree on" is that one of them is wrong, thing 

So the old well your dog trainers "suck more than mine because ... bit, yeah that could go on for days ... not going there. 

As to what JQP can learn from watching who's video?? Not my call to make I can explain what I do and why and show what I "perceive" to be easy to understand but I can't unlearn how to train a dog?? So I can't say what JQP can understand, but what I can do is get them in the Ballpark of "real trainers" ... as do you and others, but you have to draw a line somewhere. 

Anyway if you like those sources ... good enough for me. To prove which one is easier to understand for JQP, however we would both have to find a dog novice member of "JQP" an I don't know nothing about training no dog" candidate. Point them to the trainer of our sources and say ... "Go For it" with your new first dog, complete with issues! 

Doesn't seem very practical ... but it would be interesting??


----------



## Chip18

Aww crap! I lost track of this post. Sigh ... I was going to deliver one of my usual Homie inspired rants here ... or did already?? Don't know?? Anyway ... I "accidently" practiced a lesson from "You" and took not 24 hours but 72 to "think!" :surprise:

It may not seem likely??? But in all the usual back and forth dustups
I see things sometimes and start "thinking" ... they don't seem significant at the time but they make me go hmmm??

One of them being a not much mentioned thing that "Competent Trainers" also can do. That does not get mentioned ... is to get things done quickly! They can give "owners" a pretty close to accurate idea of how long it takes to make a "change" in a dos's behaviour. Time is money, they don't have time to screw around with a client's dog! Hence one week, two week, three week board and train. 

So the dog in question here ... I can say a dedicated owner can make the changes needed, if they know how (trying to help there) but I can't say how long?? JQP has time on there hands, it's their dog so "as long as it takes" works for them. But ... I thought the "time" thing was worth pointing out. 

David said ... well a lot of things actually ... but one of the "seemingly" insignificant ones was* "training by route do the same thing over and over until the dog gets it!" Show them what you want.*

I never thought about it before but yes that is "exactly" ... what I did! Hence why I "am" able to say "I never once corrected Rocky for inappropriate behaviour towards people!"

*He already understood what was expected of him around people (under normal circumstances) and that was "nothing!" Do what you always done on walks and people meetings (no contact) be calm and stand there behind first and then beside.*He got that ... hence no need for corrections. 

And that is why ... when I had my "hobby horse" with barking dogs behind fences deal, I was lost for an "appropriate" for him "solution??" The only thing I knew to do, slight tug sides ways, could throw him over or damage his spine?? I was kinda stuck and he was not "out of control" but he was "annoying" the leash pop on the head ... was perfect! 


And David" also said *"start training without a lot of distractions." *Again seemingly insignificant .. to "me" ... "at first??" But in retrospect ... yep once again exactly what I did! 

I never noticed it "because" I live in a "low population density" environment so I had to go out and actually find people ... for him to ignore! 

Davids second point ... I actually did also .. I was just unaware that I had done so! :laugh2:

So ... that is "stuff" I did first but finally became "aware of now!" Thank You David for the insight! :laugh2:





selzer said:


> I guess it depends on why the dog is behaving the way they are behaving. Sometimes the owner's stress ups the dog's sensitivity to every external thing and creates reactive behavior. Trainer's say, "Keep the lead loose!" And you are sitting there with a death grip on your dog, knowing that if you loosen it someone is going to get eaten. To the less than confident dog, who lacks confidence in you, this tension creates bad/seemingly unpredictable behavior.


Yes ... the death grip on the leash thing ... that kinda ticked me off ... being "that guy and stuff." 

Of course the leash is loose *"everybody knows that!"* So that struck "me" as a silly thing to say! But ... after 72 hours ... it made "me think" well ... what if they ... don't??? 

Walking "any" dog (thus far) properly on a leash within minutes, is for "me" so ridiculously simple that "I" don't even think about it!

Which for the record is one of the problems people have when they try and do what Cesar, does ... he usually takes whatever crap the owner has on the dog off uses a SLL and gets on with it.

And for the record I did see Slam's analysis of Cesar v SLL and I found it interesting?? Not realizing it was "fake" and stuff I resolved to be able to do same thing. "Deer" dog (Boxer ... of course) was when I realized .. I was that good???

Moving on ... so being "forced" to actually "think" things through!  I have no choice "Selzer" but to "acknowledge" that yes you are correct!

On this point ... you have out "JQP'ed" me!!  

An accomplishment worthy of a "Houndie" I feel but unfortunately *... having found myself guilty of violating, super secret, rule 20 .."The MEME Clause??" Subsection 15, article 12, paragraph 5, to wit "members on this board are not allowed to have "fun" or do the same for others, especially if they are engaging in online "Bickering or One Upmanship (that's an assumption on my part??) if members want to have fun or cause others to do so ... get a Boxer!!
*
That's how I read it anyway.  

So sorry "Selzer" you got screwed out of a Houndie ... so sad. 


Moving on and in acknowledgement of "reality." I would suggest that if a member is struggling with a dog that has "people issues??" 

Step one is that they be able to walk there dog "properly" on a "Structured Walk," using a real tool of there choice. And those would be ... a regular collar and flat leash (or ... Martingale forced to mention it) or a Prong collar. A "real tool" and learn to use it "correctly" if you have a dog with "people issue's" you have "No choice" but to use a "proper tool!" to train your dog to walk properly on structured walk, if you plan to do it yourself! 

_ - - - - - - - - - Post truncated by Admin - - - - - - - - - -_


----------



## xWolf

so i've had no internet for a week, so not been able to read this thread as of late.

just an update, had first session with the trainer a couple days ago. the guy has owned several GSD's and he's worked with the local GSD rescue with aggressive dogs who are 'waiting to be euthanized' so to speak...helped turn them around...so he more than knows what he's talking about.

the trainer within a 3 hour session gave the opinion after watching vader's behaviour that he's displaying dominance...he thinks he's the leader of our pack. so we've been doing everything we can, all bits of advice he gave us, to turn this around. only then can he be more secure when he's out and about. he also showed me how to use corrections when out on a walk. i'm still just using a flat buckle collar, looking into other types but he said really all he needs is flat-buckle for now. vader did great on the walk, i was even able to walk right past a cat and just using the words 'leave it' he focused on me rather than the cat. he doesn't pull anymore on walks, i typically just say 'vader, steady' and the lead relaxes if he gets ahead. not worked on 'heel' yet but small steps. He's also MUCH more responsive in the house.

That said, there's also more problems. obviously i know his attitudes towards people won't change in a day , it takes time, but he's seemingly more aggressive towards passers-by on walks. if i tell him 'leave it' upon approach, he complies. but there's been a couple times i've misread his body language, assumed all was fine and then has him growling and lunging at a random passerby (albeit within safe distance). this worries me as he never used to growl at people if we were just passing by. Also another major concern is that he's growling when i put his leash on to take him out. according to the trainer this may just be a resistance thing. But i've been timing corrections how he showed me and not correcting unless absolutely necessary. 

I'm going to continue with our new rules and structures,and get vader checked at the vets next week in case of any medical concerns. in the meanwhile watch if his behaviour gets worse. i know it will take time so i'm hoping if we continue with the changes his behaviour will improve. 

One last problem, we've been using the baskerville ultra muzzle. the only problem is, he does shake his head a little to get it off, a the start of walks. if he does this, or even just with walking, the overhead security strap bit flops over one of his eyes and really seems to be hurting his eye. the overhead strap is removable, but i don;t want to take it off in case he slips the muzzle off. so, i'm wanting advice on a better muzzle to buy. any suggestions/


----------



## selzer

Sounds like you have seen some improvement, good. Keep working. Can't help with the muzzle. I have a couple of cheap ones in a box somewhere, but I really don't use basket muzzles much, and that is definitely what you want if you are using them during a walk. (I have in the past kept the other type in my pocket just in case at the vet or somewhere with two bitches they started getting snarky, then I can whip those puppies on and get them on the dogs so fast it can make vet techs' heads' spin. LOL.


----------

