# Scoot back legs under and into a sit rather than rock back



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Hello,

I am training my 12 month old GSD in SchH and I need advice on getting a faster sit out of him.

He's gotten used to rocking back into the sit, but I'd like him to instead scoot his back legs forward into the sit. For those that do competitive obedience - hopefully you know why it's such an important difference. For everyone else - I'd like to do it so that he has a faster and straighter sit. When a dog rocks back into the sit it's usually slower and less precise.

The question is: is there a way to change this behavior? It's been reinforced since he was 8 weeks old so it's a pretty ingrained behavior. Has anyone encounter a similar problem and if so, how were you able to overcome it?


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## gsdSam (Feb 18, 2011)

Hello all,

Sorry to bump this thread, but I'm having similar problems and would appreciate any advice.

I have an 18 month old, white GSD. We rehomed him when he was 9mo, and although he knew sit and come, he new little else. He now knows sit, down, flat, come, stay, catch etc..

Now my problem...

Although he knows the actions, his reaction times are poor/appalling. He will do as he is asked but I'm sure I've seen quicker tortoises react. He'll sit but slowly. Lie but do it slowly etc etc. He shows no sense of urgency. If he was human I'd be asking what kind of illicit substance he was smoking!

Once in the position he'll hold it for 10 seconds or so, and then "relax" by slouching if in the sit, or lying on his side if in the down.

I'd really appreciate any help here in retraining ideas.

I've got a Cavalier KC pup thats about 3 months old, and have no problems with him. He couldn't be happier to perform and please. I just wish Sam would follow the pups lead!

Thoughts and advice will be very much appreciated,

Thanks,

John


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

gsdSam said:


> Although he knows the actions, his reaction times are poor/appalling. He will do as he is asked but I'm sure I've seen quicker tortoises react. He'll sit but slowly. Lie but do it slowly etc etc. He shows no sense of urgency. If he was human I'd be asking what kind of illicit substance he was smoking!


Are you using treats at all? If so it might as simple as offering him something better than what he's already getting. A piece of chicken or cheese instead of dry kibble, that kind of thing. 
You can also try training when the dog is hungry rather than right after he's eaten.
Another way would be to give the commands in a series, sit, down, stand, sit, and then treat at the end. (the anticipation should speed him up)

If you use toys find one toy that he loves an only use it for training. If you aren't training the toy is out of sight.

If you use praise get him ramped up, make it seem like a game and stay animated.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Sorry, I was answering the first question. You should start a new thread.

My dogs are slow when they are not sure what I want. Clicker training with treats is a good way to get great results.


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## gsdSam (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks Whiteshepherds,

I'll try out your advice and let you know how it goes. We don't show him, so even if he never gets it I'll still love him! It would just be nice to see him react how my other dogs have done in the past.

Thanks again,

John


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Ayo,

I would use a riding crop for this. The idea being that the dog learns to quickly move their butt foward into a sit, thus avoiding the crop.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

riding crop? I'll have to look it up. Thanks for the tip!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Give it a try. The riding crop is an incredibley useful and versatile tool.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Leerburg Streaming Video
Drive building exercises will help maybe?
Leerburg | Streaming Video


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Give it a try. The riding crop is an incredibley useful and versatile tool.


 
Agreed. Gabor's been using it for years. Works well.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Drive building exercises will help maybe?


I found this to be of a huge help in increasing the speed of the sit. I really like Ivan's "the game" (and still use this allot in every training session) for this. 

Do check out the streaming videos that onyx'girl posted - there is one where Ellis discusses increasing speed in the exercises. Many of the others are excellent as well.

If your dog is struggling with a fast sit, I often find that this is frequently as a result of the dog not understanding the exercise 100%. Of course there are many other causes too. A video might help us to see? 

You might also consider to first go back to luring to re-establish what it is you want to see position-taking wise. If your dog does the rock back now you already know you will have to re-teach. I'm not sure how hard it is to re-teach a dog into a scoot in after it has been taught the rock back sit? I taught the rock back and worked on increasing speed/eliminating the ever famous "last 2" hydraulics". I'm pretty happy with where it is now.

I have used a multitude of things - it is very important to know your dog well and how it responds to different techniques. Some dog's sits will really slow down with corrections; some dogs lock in too much on the toy/reward if it is in sight etc. 

Just be aware that while an OB stick/riding crop can work well with many dogs (I use this myself and use it for many other exercises), the technique must be appropriate to the dog. Too much of a pop can actually backfire and cause a super slow/hesitant sit. If you have a dog that is handler sensitive this can pronounce itself quite a bit and take much undoing. For some dogs though (and a handler who knows how to use it correctly), it does work wonderfully.

What worked best for me was going back to basics with a lure and then training it in drive ("the game") coupled with a quick tap (NOT a hard whack) on the rump with an OB stick with my left hand. Mind you, the OB stick was only done after the dog was 100% clear on the sit - it was only used as an occasional reminder. 

Some people also use a quick 180 degree turn back into the dog (so you are now facing right into the dog) right after the sit command. Again, works well for some dogs, while for others it can create stress and thus hesitancy in the exercise. 

Getting that fast sit can be a real work in progress!

Out of all the out of motion exercises, I think this is the one I have spent the most time on. I would post a vid to explain some of the above better but I am in my PJs so no way (for my eyes only )!

I'm hoping others will chime in here as I am sure there are many other great suggestions out there.

As for straight, an OB stick can work well (just as a "block"). Another good trick is to heel....pivot 1/4 turn....sit. All done quickly. A few repetitions of this than a normal sit command while heeling straight. Most crooked sits are the result of the dog not heeling straight. You can also do lots of repetitions along a wall as a block. There are some Ellis videos on this (check YouTube) technique coupled with luring (along the wall).

Just my 2 cents


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I will also add what I was told years ago by Roger Snollaerts. and I think he is 100% correct (who can disagree with Roger Snollaerts?)

(Now imagine a Belgian accent) "A fast sit is made in one of two ways. Either a lot of pressure or no pressure"


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

I agree Art - however, I think the amount of pressure really depends on the dog. More importantly, the handler has to know how to apply that pressure on the dog correctly or it could wind up biting them in the @$$


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