# so i bought a muzzle and i am glad i did



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Hubbie and I went on a walk with all four dogs today and for the first time I saw a behavior in Ma that made me go straight to Petco and get a muzzle fitted on her. Sadly they only have the mesh muzzles left but its better than nothing. Her prev. Owner warned me that ever since the fight she shows reactivity but that is not just reactivity. She saw another dog and snapped on Indra and Nala out of frustration. At Petco, once I had the right muzzle, I left it on and I am glad I did. On the way to the register a black lab passed us and if it wasn't for the muzzle she would have bitten.

I do believe the previous owner that she did not do it before. If she did she would have shown the same leash aggression when she met my friends dog. It only happens when she is on leash. She is perfectly fine off leash. Honestly, I won't play around with this and won't take any chances. 

After that we went to tractor supply to get some food. Boy, do people give a dog with a muzzle "the look". I did say "it is not because of people but because of dogs." And instantly, they relaxed and even petted her after they asked if it is okay.
She is a great people dog. But we will have a lot of work ahead of us regarding the leash aggressiveness and this time, no experiments. I rather am safe than sorry and meanwhile, I have no issues with putting a muzzle on a dog. Should have done the same with Zenzy.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I know "the look". When Rocky wears a head collar people think it is a muzzle and give him a wide berth. Glad you found out she needed it before any damage was done! Good luck to training, hopefully it won't be too long of a road.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah. While she's sweet, she does have some sharpness in her but I think that comes with the breed.

However, the leash thing, I would have never expected it to be like that. I did not see that coming at all. She went from 0 to 500 in a split second, seeing that dog and bit Nala and then Indra. 

And then at Petco... yah, Muzzle is definitely the right choice. The least thing I need is another vet bill or more attention in this city.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

How does the sharpness manifest itself?
I was told Hans could be sharp given his pedigree, but I must admit I don't know what to look for, or how to address it if I see it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm not quite sure if the english "sharpness" is the same as the german sharpness?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Geez, I feel so sorry for this girl!!  My last male was totally messed up with the neighbor dog after he attacked him. His attitude was never the same. It's heartbreaking when a good dog gets attacked and then has these issues. My boy had always been so good natured up until then. I was also shocked the first time he saw that dog again and went into instant 'kill' mode. It was scary coming from him! I hope you're able to help this girl back to her normal state of mind.


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## NoVAGSDGuy (Mar 7, 2011)

Sorry to hear you have to go through this. I ran into a neighbor one time who wanted to let their dog play with mine, and I was a newby at the time and didn't think to much of letting them play together on a leash....big mistake....It latched onto my Abby's face and wouldn't let go, she finally yanked free and was going to kill that dog....I got her calmed down, and the other owner was leaving I said hold on a second calm your dog.

Once they were in a better state, I got them to play and wrestle again for a few seconds....luckily no fight happened and I separated them on my terms....I dunno if this helped but a couple days later Abby saw that dog running loose through the neighborhood, and instead of getting angry at the dog that made her bleed, she wagged her tail....

Luckily she hasn't shown any outward aggression to dogs since, but she does have trouble backing down to other dogs, dunno if that stems from that incident or its just in her nature.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She went from 0 to 500 in a split second, seeing that dog and bit Nala and then Indra.


This is redirection due to not being able to get at the other dog(s). 
I had a Chow do this to me over a cat - I was the closest thing around. He saw the cat, couldn't get at the cat (short leash) and redirected onto me. I narrowly avoided being bitten, and he whipped around at least 3x trying to nail me.

Be aware she may redirect onto _you_ when she's frustrated, if there's no dog to redirect on. Not a given, but it's a possibility.

I would think...and I'm no expert at all, so, correct me if I'm wrong...that she's rather like a Dachshund in a way, our doxies love each other and cuddle all the time, but they can go from being sweet/nice to fighting with another in the blink of an eye. 
Being hyper-aware of triggers and avoiding those triggers helps but it's tiring to be "on guard" all the time, too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> This is redirection due to not being able to get at the other dog(s).
> I had a Chow do this to me over a cat - I was the closest thing around. He saw the cat, couldn't get at the cat (short leash) and redirected onto me. I narrowly avoided being bitten, and he whipped around at least 3x trying to nail me.
> 
> Be aware she may redirect onto _you_ when she's frustrated, if there's no dog to redirect on. Not a given, but it's a possibility.
> ...


Yep, and that is exactly why I bought the muzzle. I want to see those triggers without getting bit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Redirected aggression is hard. So many things can set them off. Sierra does that whenever there is any excitement or anyone gets to close to Scott. She attacked Jax one day because the washer went off balance. she attacked both Jax and Banshee because we were on our knees doing something and the other dogs were standing near us. We started at a trainers with them but then Jax reinjured her leg.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Given the experience with Zenzy, and the fact that you have two other females and a male ... maybe it would be good to consider finding a home for her with no other dogs and someone who can work on her issues without having to worry about keeping up with other dogs. That's a lot to take on.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

the wire muzzles are the best- the dog can breathe and drink water. if you worry about stares you can get the wire basket muzzles in different colors to lighten up the mood of strangers. having a reactive dog is a huge management commitment.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think I'd sweat the fact that people look funny at my dog because it's in a muzzle. Truly, isn't their buisness. My responsibility is to my dog(s). If placing a muzzle on the dog allows me to work through issues while keeping everyone and/or dogs from being bitten, then I'm taking my responsibilities seriously. 

I utilize a Halti on Hondo when out in public. Nobody wants to pet him. Cool with me. Cool with Hondo as well as he doesn't care to be pet by strangers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Given the experience with Zenzy, and the fact that you have two other females and a male ... maybe it would be good to consider finding a home for her with no other dogs and someone who can work on her issues without having to worry about keeping up with other dogs. That's a lot to take on.


I agree. I know what we go through here and if it were possible to rehome Sierra to a place with no other dogs, I would in a minute. It sounds like Ma has some residual issues to overcome, or she may have been the one to start the fight in her last home and the behavior just went unnoticed. It took us a long time to figure out which one of our dogs was the instigator and which one was just fighting in defense. It still bothers me that Ma went for the throat of the other dog while she has wounds on her that look like they were done in defense.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I agree. I know what we go through here and if it were possible to rehome Sierra to a place with no other dogs, I would in a minute. It sounds like Ma has some residual issues to overcome, or she may have been the one to start the fight in her last home and the behavior just went unnoticed. It took us a long time to figure out which one of our dogs was the instigator and which one was just fighting in defense. It still bothers me that Ma went for the throat of the other dog while she has wounds on her that look like they were done in defense.


Actually, she is only reactive on the leash. Other than that, no fights, she plays nicely and fits in really well. No other issues, other than the leash thing. 

Indra was kind of stand offish but meanwhile they've become good pal's. 

That being said, I was already thinking about re-homing her since it's just too much training wise.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well you've got a lot of girls there, lots of female hormones.
And coupled with the issue you've already noted, it might be wise to let her go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs. K. 

Did you ever stop and consider that _maybe_ the reason the former owners re-homed the malinois is because the malinois is the one who started _all _the trouble? 

I think if the pit started it, the pit would have gone for her throat, not just her legs. 

You are dealing with dynamite here. 

I think you should probably make a good friend at the malinois rescue in order to save this bitch. Remember that she is still settling in, and she hasn't ruled out EATING your dogs yet, she just hasn't tried it yet. Bitches are sneaky and patient.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Bitches are sneaky and patient.


OH yes they are. 
I have my cover girl, Libby, who waited an entire afternoon to retaliate against a little 5lb. Chihuahua that stole _her_ popcorn.
The way Libby shook her head I thought the little dog was done for. And Libby is an aging Sheltie mix!

None of the drive and fight a Mal must have...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't think the previous owner lied about her. She knows a very good friend of mine and my friend met the dog before it all happened. I remember my friend even talking about Ma Deuce when she met her. My friend recommended me and she wouldn't have done that if she would have had that issue before the fight. Also, from how I got to know her owner, she wouldn't have just given her to anyone. She was honest about everything regarding Ma Deuce, good bad and the ugly. She noticed a little reactivity after the fight, but I think she didn't get close enough to another dog to actually see how bad it is. 

She is an awesome little dog that fits in perfectly and as long as she is off leash, she is awesome with other dogs, even dogs that she doesn't know. 
As for her reactivity on the leash, I talked to a friend of mine who works a lot with special rescue cases (aggression, reactivity etc). A former State Trooper that is good at what she does and is now working primarily in rehabilitating dogs successfully. We'll be getting together.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Hopefully you can find an owner that has the time/money to train her OR likes to go on walks at 5am when no one else is out 

When I rehomed Roxy, I was hoping for a single woman that didn't have men over often, since she hated men, and I found two women partners that joked about how "they got rid of men long ago"....who would have thought I would find the ideal home for her like that?

Good luck and best wishes!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I honestly do not have any concern about the safety of my dogs in the house or the yard. You guys make it sound like she's a monster waiting to attack my girls, without even knowing her and you are judging that little dog just from her leash reactivity, making it sound like she can't be in a home with other dogs. 

Here is a newsflash: She has no issues with the two girls in the house. If that was the case, she would have shown it within the last two weeks. 
Matter of fact is, she plays, romps, shows affection to both the girls. 

Yes, these are three females. Yes, she has re-directed and snapped at Nala and Indra when she saw another dog on a walk and because of my previous experiences I do not take it lightly and got a muzzle right away. 

However, I did have her interact with other dogs, she never met before, and she did not show any kind of aggression towards them. Except for the leash reactivity, this is an awesome little dog and not a female eating monster. 
She has a very high will to please, is highly trainable and driven. I know we can use that to our advantage. 
Next week I'll meet with my friend and she will give me her honest opinion and I'm pretty sure that it can be worked out. This is not a dog that can't be worked with.

As long as she is in this house, I will work with her. I do hope that I can find her a working home because I know she will have to be worked. She's not a couch potato and would excel in detection and/or sport.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nobody implied she was a monster. :thinking:

Redirected aggression is tricky. IME, first it was one trigger then another was added and another. It builds on itself. And, while I don't think the owner was lying, I wonder if the actions were accurately evaluated. Ma went for the other dogs throat. I know I harp on that but it bothers me. IME, a dog only goes for the throat when it's serious about doing harm. Jax could easily grab Sierra's throat but she doesn't. The wounds Sierra gets, while latched to Jax's throat, is from Jax defending herself similar to the wounds that Ma has.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

u should see if they make a muzzle in pink or something lol

there are dogs with wire muzzles that go to off leash dog trails and parks they just run around chasing other dogs with these huge muzzles on their faces.

2 of them are shepherds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah. While she's sweet, she does have some sharpness in her but I think that comes with the breed.


I have heard more stories of re-directed bites from Mals than from any other breed--Mal people get really offended when I say this, but it does seem to be a breed trait, that hair-trigger snapping reaction. I guess there's a reason they call them "Maligators!"  Very wise of you to go out and get a muzzle immediately upon seeing this behavior, rather than waiting to see what would happen.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Surprise- she goes from 0 to 500 in two seconds and she is a bit reactive!

Yup. She's a malinois. Sure, some aren't this way but many are. Muzzling is fine to keep everyone safe but be aware that this could just build frustration for her if you don't get to the root of the problem. 

That is, she sure better be looking to *you* for direction when you see another dog and not flipping out. You could go the slow route which is desensitize, positive reward for remaining calm, or the faster route which is correction for stupid behavior and not listening to a command and reward for good behavior. 

Use the ball and tug drive to your advantage. She can redirect some of that frustrated energy on a tug or ball and learn to wait and work through the reactivity with time.

I like to teach my dogs neutrality. I don't need them to make any other dog friends or to think that other dogs are exciting or play buddies. For a malinois like this, it may be the best way to go.

And if you need to re-home, that is fine, too. 

I personally do not think that this dog has long-term issues from being attacked. I think this is simpy the breed and her entering adolesence/early adulthood. Malinois are known for handler aggression and redirection. You need to develop a plan to deal with it. A muzzle does not change the dog's mindset. A good failsafe, but not the end solution, in my opinion.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Here is a newsflash: She has no issues with the two girls in the house. If that was the case, she would have shown it within the last two weeks.
> Matter of fact is, she plays, romps, shows affection to both the girls.


Here's a newsflash for you: That is simply not ture. She is not yet settled in and is still on her best behavior. She has not yet started testing you or your dogs.

I hope, for everyone's sake, that it works out and no one else is hurt but you are way too comfortable that this is how it is going to be forever. And the truth is you simply can't know that yet. It takes 2-3 months for dogs to START settling into a new home, especially when stepping into an already established pack. You have months to go before you can declare she is a "prefect fit".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Surprise- she goes from 0 to 500 in two seconds and she is a bit reactive!
> 
> Yup. She's a malinois.


That is what everyone seems to forget. 


As for if she is a fit or isn't. I know when a dog is a fit or isn't a fit. She is a fit! 

And for her not testing. Jamie, how do you know if she is testing me or isn't. You don't know her. You are assuming things.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> Surprise- she goes from 0 to 500 in two seconds and she is a bit reactive!
> 
> Yup. She's a malinois. Sure, some aren't this way but many are. Muzzling is fine to keep everyone safe but be aware that this could just build frustration for her if you don't get to the root of the problem.
> 
> ...


I agree. I thought about that too or a combination of the two. She's a year old, doesn't know much and simply hasn't had any manners when she first moved in. She's been first testing me with jumping on me for attention. We got that worked out already. 

She is basically testing all day long what she can get away with and what she can't get away with. So this might just be part of it.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Nobody implied she was a monster. :thinking:
> 
> Redirected aggression is tricky. IME, first it was one trigger then another was added and another. It builds on itself. And, while I don't think the owner was lying, I wonder if the actions were accurately evaluated. Ma went for the other dogs throat. I know I harp on that but it bothers me. IME, a dog only goes for the throat when it's serious about doing harm. Jax could easily grab Sierra's throat but she doesn't. The wounds Sierra gets, while latched to Jax's throat, is from Jax defending herself similar to the wounds that Ma has.


I've actually heard from a couple of different trainers that I work with that it's not uncommon for dogs to go for the front legs first and try to debilitate their opponent and then go for the throat or belly... I don't know how true this is or if it's breed specific but I've encountered it with Sasha and Scarlett in our own pack and also another of my friends whose dog almost died after he got into a fight with another dog and the dog broke one of his legs and severely injured the other. He almost died because the infection was so deep in both legs. So I wouldn't automatically jump to the Mal as the aggressor as it seems different dogs do have different fighting "strategies." 

One that same note, I have to agree with Jamie that it takes a good couple of months to really tell how dogs, especially girls, are going to get along in the long run... It took Sasha 4 months to initiate a fight with Scarlett and it hasn't stopped since. I tell you what though, the first four months were perfect. No neon signs of trouble to come and then BAM. Scarlett raised her lip to Sasha because she was in her space and Sasha took it personally.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K, when are you ever going to admit you don't know everything there is to know about everything. I had Jazzy and Arwen together 24-7 for a couple of months. I had no idea they would start WWIII. Now I know better. They were 2 years and 3 years old when I put them together. 

We tried to spare you some grief. 

I have had dogs that have been in fights, good fights where there were stitches and drains, and they NEVER showed ANY leash aggression or dog aggression toward outside dogs after the fact. A dog _should _recover from that. They do not all I understand, but that is indicative of poor nerve in my opinion. 

And as for wanting to please, Jazzy and Arwen both had that trait to the extreme. It has nothing to do with whether they will show aggression to other dogs within the pack or without. Jazzy was aggressive to strange dogs, Arwen never, not before or after. 

Whether this Malinois has a genetic issue, or is typical for her breed has little to do with whether it makes sense to keep her in a family setting with a bunch of young dogs, most of them female. And the more this dog ramps up into fight mode, the more likely someone is going to get hurt bad.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sashadog said:


> . So I wouldn't automatically jump to the Mal as the aggressor as it seems different dogs do have different fighting "strategies."


No where did I say Ma was the aggressor. I said it bothered me that she went for the throat. I was not there and I"m not going to make an assumption on what happened. I've stated that the sign could have been misread and maybe she was redirecting and the previous owner might have missed it. I stated my experience with my dogs that I made clear was from my experience with my dogs...but I did not state Ma was the aggressor nor will I.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> No where did I say Ma was the aggressor. I said it bothered me that she went for the throat. I was not there and I"m not going to make an assumption on what happened. I've stated that the sign could have been misread and maybe she was redirecting and the previous owner might have missed it. I stated my experience with my dogs that I made clear was from my experience with my dogs...but I did not state Ma was the aggressor nor will I.


Oh I wasn't referring directly to you in that post, sorry that I didn't clarify  It was more a general statement since I had read that from other posters even in the original post about Ma joining Mrs.K's pack. I don't know how to selectively quote peoples posts or I would have just pulled the legs/throat part


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, I don't think it is a good idea to discuss Mal specific traits on this forum. 

I can tell whether or not a dog is a good fit and I have taken action when I saw that a dog wasn't a fit and removed that dog from the pack within three days. 
It is not all perfect. I can tell that there are distinct differfences between the breeds.

What you don't understand, Seltzer is that I do know that things can change in split seconds and I know which signs to look out for. They are never unsupervised and I know exactly what triggers Nala and Indra. I don't know it all but I do know Nala and Indra to the point where I can tell if something works or doesn't work and when to interrupt the play before it turns into a fight. I also know how to split them up and simply rotate two by two and give individual time. Today we did not go with all four on a walk but went on two separate rounds. Hubbie handled Ma and I had Nala. She was walking perfectly on a lose leash. 

So that might make it easier for her. I know that Nala or Yukon is a better fit for Ma because she can't feed offof them. Wheras Indra and Ma do feed off of each other. One dog starts and Indra joins in and voila, both amp each other up. Yukon is very calm and Nala could care less, she is just spunky and cocentrates on you. 

So yah, I do think I have the Situation under control. I know what potentially could happen with three females and I do make sure that it doesn't happen. 

Meanwhile she is crate trained and she is crated every night. Right now, indra and Yukon are outside while Nala ad Ma are crated. I utilize every tool I have and the muzzle is a tool just like a prong. It is a temporary fix and next week I will meet up with my trainer friend to see how we can work this out.

I am more and more leaning towards adolesence stage. It fits everything else she is doing and I am not sure if that can be compared to the gsd at all. While there are similarities the two breeda could not be more different.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> No where did I say Ma was the aggressor. I said it bothered me that she went for the throat. I was not there and I"m not going to make an assumption on what happened. I've stated that the sign could have been misread and maybe she was redirecting and the previous owner might have missed it. I stated my experience with my dogs that I made clear was from my experience with my dogs...but I did not state Ma was the aggressor nor will I.


Ma was on the ground. The pit was on top going for the legs and Ma defended herself. When Marcus saw her at the last training session he said "That pit wasn't messing around." Just by looking at her injuries. I am not familiar in how pits fight but I was told from numerous people that it isn't unusual and the goal is to demobalize the other dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've never seen a pit fight. It was obviously serious from her wounds. The pictures were horrendous.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K, the name is selzer -- no T ok.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Between the great dane, Zenzy, Judge and Yukon fighting, and this dog I wish you wouldn't be so blind to things people are trying to point out to you. Muzzle or not, even the act of her TRYING to go after Indra and Nala could set THEM off and you could start having major issues.

You definitely seem to be playing with fire.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> As for if she is a fit or isn't. I know when a dog is a fit or isn't a fit. She is a fit!
> 
> And for her not testing. Jamie, how do you know if she is testing me or isn't. You don't know her. You are assuming things.


I'm not assuming anything. Years of experience, study and shared knowledge have taught me what I am saying to you. If she is pushing you now, even the more reason to heed the warnings and it's not something to brag about. In the years that I've been fostering, not one dog has truly settled in after 2 weeks without an adjustment period further down the line. And I don't take in cute little puppies either. 

This one will turn out like all the others. Behavior patterns don't lie.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I'm not assuming anything. Years of experience, study and shared knowledge have taught me what I am saying to you. If she is pushing you now, even the more reason to heed the warnings and it's not something to brag about. In the years that I've been fostering, not one dog has truly settled in after 2 weeks without an adjustment period further down the line. And I don't take in cute little puppies either.
> 
> This one will turn out like all the others. Behavior patterns don't lie.


Like all the others? You mean like Nala where everyone said, "don't get a female, they will fight!" and I said "She fits." within the first two weeks, and she did fit? 

Or like the little other female, my foster that fit the pack and my male foster that I rehabilitated? 

Zenzy is a whole different story and nowhere near comparable with Ma Deuce. Ma Deuce is NOT Zenzy. 

So what other dogs do you talk about? What behavior pattern are you talking about? 

Also, just for the record, Judge and Yukon have never fought. They never, never, never had a fight, so I don't know where Justine is taking that from. 

Zenzy went after the Great Dane. She then went after the others. I probably should have never brought her to the US and I underestimated the situation, plus the situation we were in, wasn't exactly the best. We had no other option and I did what I had to do. 

I know my pack, I know what I can expect out of my pack. I had so many dogs going in and out of this pack it's not even funny.

I had the Great Dane, the Dachshunds living with us. Indra, Judge and Yukon had no issues with other dogs in the pack. 

Nala, Indra and Yukon have no issues with other dogs and Ma Deuce does fit in. She may make adjustments but I am expecting that anyways, since she's just a year old. 

Do not tell me what my pack can handle or can't handle. You do NOT know my pack. You do not know Indra or Nala or Yukon and you do not know Ma Deuce either. 

The only other dog that I removed after three days was a Husky/Malamute mix because he didn't fit the pack and it was just not worth it. 

If what you say were true, I could have never visited Lana in Texas and threw my dogs into her pack of females and spent the afternoon together.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Between the great dane, Zenzy, Judge and Yukon fighting, and this dog I wish you wouldn't be so blind to things people are trying to point out to you. Muzzle or not, even the act of her TRYING to go after Indra and Nala could set THEM off and you could start having major issues.
> 
> You definitely seem to be playing with fire.


She didn't go after Nala and Indra. She re-directed. There is a difference. 

Also, Judge, Yukon and the Great Dane never fought. It was Zenzy that went after each of them. That too makes a difference. There wasn't a fight between the four of them. 

Neither Judge, nor Yukon, nor the Great Dane went after any other dog. 

The muzzle is a temporary fix on walks. In the house, she doesn't wear the muzzle, because there is no need for it. 

Things are a lot different than back then and I now have resources that I did not have two years ago. I do believe that I am in very good hands.

*Memo to myself: In the future, post only pictures and videos!

I really don't know what the issue is:

- Issue immediately addressed by seeking out professional help and putting a muzzle on the dog
- Separating the dogs
- Dogs under constant supervision and individually given time
- Rotation of dogs

So please, tell me, where I'm playing with fire again. 

I am doing everything after the book and immediately addressed the issue. But hey... damned if you do, damned if you don't. 
*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

After you put Zenzy down, didn't you say you thought the GD was the one causing all the issues?

We are not talking 10 years ago, we are talking maybe two years. Now you are an expert. Yes you can temporarily shove dogs together without them showing their true colors, for an afternoon. Dogs take a few months to settle in before deciding to adjust the situation to suit them. 

This puppy had been in a fight, just as she would have been reaching sexual maturity. They say with females spaying doesn't matter, or if it does, a spayed bitch can become more reactive. That fight was with a bitch in her pack. That screams of same-sex aggression, not dog aggression or leash aggression, or even re-directed aggression. 

If it was re-directed aggression, what was the initial object of her aggression? I mean the pit/mal fight.

Maybe same-sex aggression will never play into your pack, but it really only takes the right brush up, or walk in front and it can be on. So if you don't have two people to separate the maligator from the land sharks, what is your plan, that is, if they do decide they no longer jell? I mean, you saw the force with which she redirected her aggression today, and will she re-direct to you, if you manage to get the other dogs out of her way? 

It really doesn't help to avoid the truth. GSDs are a breed that is prone to same sex aggression. Just like pitties are a breed that are prone to dog aggression. If mals are a breed very likely to have reactive aggression and handler aggression, you are setting up a pack like that gal down south, the vet tech who borded a second cane corso, along with her cane corso and pit bull and whatever else. That girl didn't lack in knowledge about dogs, but she is dead all the same.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> After you put Zenzy down, didn't you say you thought the GD was the one causing all the issues?
> 
> *I was looking for answers, looking for what I could have done better. The GD did run her over on occassion but that wasn't the case on the day that happened. I was questioning everything I did for a very long time and came up with so many different scenarios and theories it's not even funny. Matter of fact is that she did become highly reactive and aggressive after she was spayed.
> *
> ...


Again, I am not avoiding the truth. I am aware of what could happen between the girls and I am taking pre-cautions already. 
Comparing me to someone like that Vet Tech. Seriously? Are you the only one that can keep multiple dogs without getting killed? 

Really Selzer? Really? Jeez...


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## NoVAGSDGuy (Mar 7, 2011)

sashadog said:


> I've actually heard from a couple of different trainers that I work with that it's not uncommon for dogs to go for the front legs first and try to debilitate their opponent and then go for the throat or belly... I don't know how true this is or if it's breed specific but I've encountered it with Sasha and Scarlett in our own pack and also another of my friends whose dog almost died after he got into a fight with another dog and the dog broke one of his legs and severely injured the other. He almost died because the infection was so deep in both legs. So I wouldn't automatically jump to the Mal as the aggressor as it seems different dogs do have different fighting "strategies."


My shepherd and my mom's bulldog wrestle this way, she is like a ufc fighter shooting a leg and bullrushing....Once she has him off balance she flips him upside down and holds him down by the throat....He will be on his back with all his feet up in the guard position....lmao

Her technique worked well, when a much larger male lab mix decided he wanted to fight, she had him upside down and had his throat when I pulled her off....

IMO your right, just because a dog went for a foot doesn't mean it wasn't fighting seriously...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

to give you a visual how I can separate my dogs:

Frontyard:









Backyard:









Green Room that is not being used and can be turned into another dog room if necessary:









The door to upstairs that we unhooked because we wanted it more open:









Separation of the yards









Upstairs:









Sunroom:









* All in all, I have ten crates and four dogs. You think that's enough to keep these four, seriously super aggressive Monsters, separated and from killing me? *


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> She didn't go after Nala and Indra. She re-directed. There is a difference.
> 
> 
> [/B]


Just my personal opinion based on experience....the re directed aggression can cause a major fight. All it will take is one of the other dogs not liking the one dog in their face. My guess is that it would be a 3 dog fight if it ever got that far. Just be careful and do what you think is best


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I think everyone acknowledges your ability with dogs and that you have available areas to separate if necessary. What I see from reading the posts is that people are just concerned that if the situation turns bad in a heartbeat someone or some dog could get seriously hurt. The separate areas and containment may be too late. Hoping all goes well and that all this is for naught...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have four full-grown dogs running together like a pack. I do not have 10-11 full grown bitches running together like a pack. I might let two jaunt together for a little time. No free-for-alls here.

What you do for your work is not the same. These are dogs that are not at home, nor with their owners/packs. There is no resource-guarding/territorial aggression. Chances are they are spayed/neutered which takes out a lot of the hormonal stuff. These are dogs conditioned to being a part of a doggy daycare. It is like you afternoon jaunt with a friend's dogs. Not the same as being at home with the people one might want to resource guard, and the pack that one might want to change the order of.

A few times I have had a lapse in security and left a latch of a gate not completely latched. Or had a dog break out of a crate. Sometimes there is no issues, lots of sniffing and maybe running back and forth, etc, and I can call them and put them back where they belong. Other times, I have had a lot of noise but no teeth, and I was able to grab and shove them where they belong. And a very few times I have had fights. The fights are bad. It is extremely hard to separate two 65-75 pound bitches when they are intent on killing each other. The heart races and it is frankly very dangerous. Without my gates, I would be in trouble. Grabbing the collar is not the answer been-there-done-that-got-the-stitches. 

No way would I be able to crate one of the bitches if they are fighting. The only way I can stop them is to grab a tail, pull and get a gate between them, and then use the gate and everything else in my power to stop the assault. 

It is also my experience that if you have a group out, they do not just sit on the sidelines and watch. they jump right in. And yes, you can grab the ones on the fringes, and direct them into a crate before dealing with the deadly ones. 

My question was not what you would do AFTER your dogs get into a major fight, but how would you stop it if you are home alone. My strategy is only one-two dogs out at the same time, and having gates that I can get between them with, and thus separate them. And it isn't easy, but I have managed so far. With two people, it is whole lot easier. 

What would you have done if you were walking Indra, Nala, and Ma, alone, and Ma redirected aggression on the other two bitches? I walk one bitch at a time usually. Once I went to the vet with a pair of bitches, and walking out, one sort of huffed at the other, and I whipped two muzzles out of my pocket and zipped them on them in light speed. I had the girls at the vets both rolling in laughter and impressed that I was able to slap them on so fast. I just don't want to clean wounds and pay for stitches and drains. With one dog, that isn't an issue. 

No, I am not the only person who can have multiple intact dogs. But most of the people I know who have multiple bitches kept as pets running together in the home, most of them have had serious bitch fights and have had to adjust everything in order to manage them.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

That is one awesome tree house. Maybe Ma could live up there? LOL


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Having "ability" to manage dogs includes knowing your limits and being honest with yourself about them.
You have a ticking time bomb there, not just one dog, and for the umpteenth dozen time, nobody called your dog a "Monster", except you.
I might add, as mentioned before our dogs get into tiffs on a semi regular basis and it takes full-time management, and it gets darned old. But none of ours are monsters, either. They are just dogs, doing what dogs do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Having "ability" to manage dogs includes knowing your limits and being honest with yourself about them.
> You have a ticking time bomb there, not just one dog, and for the umpteenth dozen time, nobody called your dog a "Monster", except you.
> I might add, as mentioned before our dogs get into tiffs on a semi regular basis and it takes full-time management, and it gets darned old. But none of ours are monsters, either. They are just dogs, doing what dogs do.


And if our dogs get into it, we are not going to put them down for being dogs (or bitches). Not unless they are more dead than alive due to the fight.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Exactly. 
Nobody has been booted out or put to sleep for fighting.
ALL dogs have limits. Knowing them and working around them and under them is the key...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> You have four full-grown dogs running together like a pack. I do not have 10-11 full grown bitches running together like a pack. I might let two jaunt together for a little time. No free-for-alls here.
> 
> *And that can't possibly be changed instantly right? And you did completely miss the point where I said that I actually rotate them and already addressed the issue? *
> 
> ...


*If those three were merely kept as pets and went on the occasional walk, without serious work, I have no doubt that there would be bitch fights. However, Nala and Indra are very balanced dogs because they get out, worked mentally and physically. They also learned to settle and Crate Games on top of that and it does make a huge difference within the pack and your relationship to the dogs themselves. 
*


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> And if our dogs get into it, we are not going to put them down for being dogs (or bitches). Not unless they are more dead than alive due to the fight.


You couldn't resist that one, eh? You had to dish it out and make that personal attack, and yes, that IS a personal attack and don't tell me it wasn't! 

I did not put Zenzy down because she got into a fight.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> to give you a visual how I can separate my dogs:
> 
> *All in all, I have ten crates and four dogs. You think that's enough to keep these four, seriously super aggressive Monsters, separated and from killing me? *


Looks like you've got it under control and if it doesn't work out you can go into the crate renting business. 
Is this your first experience with a Mal in the house? How do you like her compared to the GSD? (just curious)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Mals are not gsds. They are sharp in more ways than one. They take a long time to mature (I think Rafi was an adolescent until he was about 4!). They are wired really tight and they need a different kind of training than most gsds. He has always had an off switch but he turns on really quickly and goes right into high gear. I have figured out how to manage it (and he is darn near perfect except for the neurosis that seems to come with mals) but if he was in a pack it would be a different story. I have to stay on him or he will take a mile. And he's a piece of cake compared to most mals. 

I'm sure that what you're seeing now is nothing compared to what you'll see in a few weeks. I got Rafi around the same age and he tested every limit in the book. Luckily I only had Chama and my cat Cleo here and no younger dogs. 

She is already creating stress for you and for your household. Why keep her? You were doing fine with three dogs. Why jeopardize that? Why not see if you can foster her through ABMC and find her another home with no or fewer dogs? ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Looks like you've got it under control and if it doesn't work out you can go into the crate renting business.
> Is this your first experience with a Mal in the house? How do you like her compared to the GSD? (just curious)


Yep, I thought about selling some of them but then again, I'm like "You never know when you need them." LOL

It is my first experience with owning a Mal. 
Honestly, I am in love with her, even though she is taking me for a ride. There is something about them. Their intensity level is through the roof and not just drive wise but also affection wise.

So far my German friends who own Mals have warned me about certain things and they nailed it to the point. The entire description fit the picture even to the point of sharing me. They said that Mals are very particular about sharing their person and if there are problems with that, it needs to be addressed right away. 
Luckily, she has no issues with sharing me. 

It's like Shepherds but the intensity is increased by 500%. 
I read up on the German Malinois forum and Reactivity towards people or dogs is addressed as a sticky and it did help a lot to understand the mindset of the Mal. 

There is a lot I have to learn about that breed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Are ALL Mals the same with the same temperament? If so, that is an example of extremely tight line breeding to develop that consistent a breed temperament.

That absolutely isn't the case with GSD's, even with just the 8/9 individuals that I have owned and the others that I have been close to, there is a TREMENDOUS differences in temperament and personality.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Are ALL Mals the same with the same temperament? If so, that is an example of extremely tight line breeding to develop that consistent a breed temperament.
> 
> That absolutely isn't the case with GSD's, even with just the 8/9 individuals that I have owned and the others that I have been close to, there is a TREMENDOUS differences in temperament and personality.


I honestly don't know. I don't know the breed well enough. I don't know anything about Malinois Lines whatsoever. First time Mal owner and she certainly wasn't planned LOL.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Mals are not gsds. They are sharp in more ways than one. They take a long time to mature (I think Rafi was an adolescent until he was about 4!). They are wired really tight and they need a different kind of training than most gsds. He has always had an off switch but he turns on really quickly and goes right into high gear. I have figured out how to manage it (and he is darn near perfect except for the neurosis that seems to come with mals) but if he was in a pack it would be a different story. I have to stay on him or he will take a mile. And he's a piece of cake compared to most mals.
> 
> I'm sure that what you're seeing now is nothing compared to what you'll see in a few weeks. I got Rafi around the same age and he tested every limit in the book. Luckily I only had Chama and my cat Cleo here and no younger dogs.
> 
> She is already creating stress for you and for your household. Why keep her? You were doing fine with three dogs. Why jeopardize that? Why not see if you can foster her through ABMC and find her another home with no or fewer dogs? ABMC Belgian Malinois Rescue - Rescued Belgian Malinois


I am not stressed in the least bit. 
She doesn't create any stress within the household. 

Jeez, she's shown reactivity. Big deal. I got a muzzle and see a professional about it... 

What the heck is wrong with you people. With any newbie you cry when they want to get rid of a dog because of reactivity and tell them to get a professional. 

Here I am, an experienced owner, having a reactive dog and I am told to get rid of her because I can't possibly handle her? If you think that an experienced owner can't handle a reactive dog how can you possibly recommend a first time owner to work through reactivity and slam them for getting rid of a dog? 

Wow... just wow... the hypocrisy of this topic is mindblowing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I talked to a friend of mine who is a SAR Handler back in Germany and owns three Malinois. 

She said the difference between the Mals and German Shepherd is that you have to stay very calm with them and can't do anything that gets them riled up more than they already are. With GSD's you are so used to build the drive and you reward with the voice, padding, etc. that most people do that mistake and amp up the Mal even more than they already are. 

What you want is to calm them down and if they show insecurity or perceive something as a threat you can teach them to ask you if it is okay. I know someone earlier mentioned the exact same thing, about the Mal, to teach them to look at you and guide off of you and in order to do that, you have to stay very very calm. 
Interestingly, it's what my new trainer is trying to smack into my brain for about eight weeks now, because I am the kind of excited, high pitched voice super happy person. 

She said one of her Mals had the same issue when she was younger. She called it "Schnuller - Effect" (Pacifier - Effect?) and calmed them down by giving them something to chew on. Either a high value treat or sometimes her dog carries her Bringsel around. 

She also said that since Mals are highly trainable and want to please you can work rather quickly through that issue, if you do it right. However, since they do learn so fast, it's also easy to screw it up and then it's even harder to get it out of them. 

She will Skype-Call me later and give me more pointers on how to work with Ma. She said many people can't handle Mals because they treat them like German Shepherds.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra,

You PERSONALLY told me that you could no longer leave Yukon and Judge alone together because it was obvious at one point that they had gotten into a huge fight while they were unsupervised together. Do NOT change history. THe conversation was a long time ago so I don't recall all the details, but I remember being shocked because you were lamenting having to crate one of them...so you viewed your only option as bringing Judge (or Yukon -- I can't remember which) with you everywhere because you didn't want either one to have to be in a crate while you were gone.

I also recall a thread on this forum specifically about the great dane causing problems within your pack. You even went so far as to post a video of his "disturbing" behavior.

I hope you are having simple selective memory and are not going out of your way to lie right now.

You're playing with fire because you seem to continually put on these blinders to issues that other people can see developing into serious problems. Rather than step back and consider the experience level other people have that you don't (including a lot of people on here with a LOT more Mal and bitch on bitch aggression experience than you) you play the "I know everything card." You are clearly putting blinders on not realizing how re-directed aggressive--even WITH a muzzle on--it's the act of the state of mind NOT the actual biting that can set other dogs off--may have a detrimental effect on Indra and Nala in the long run. They are only going to put up with this redirected aggressive for so long before they are fed up.




Mrs.K said:


> She didn't go after Nala and Indra. She re-directed. There is a difference.
> 
> Also, Judge, Yukon and the Great Dane never fought. It was Zenzy that went after each of them. That too makes a difference. There wasn't a fight between the four of them.
> 
> ...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> *If those three were merely kept as pets and went on the occasional walk, without serious work, I have no doubt that there would be bitch fights. However, Nala and Indra are very balanced dogs because they get out, worked mentally and physically. They also learned to settle and Crate Games on top of that and it does make a huge difference within the pack and your relationship to the dogs themselves. *




And here you go. You think that providing a mental workout has anything at all to do with bitch on bitch aggression? I'm sure all those SERIOUS working dog people with multiple titles on multiple dogs who have to keep their bitches separate would be grateful to know that all they had to do was play crate games and it all would have been fixed.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think that teaching a dog to always carry around something in the mouth can help this kind of aggression. It is pretty easy to do with the high drive dogs. My trainer would walk his high drive 8 dog pack in the park, and the iffy dogs always carried the ball. I used the trick with some of my fosters and it works. It seems to redirect and refocus the dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> And here you go. You think that providing a mental workout has anything at all to do with bitch on bitch aggression? I'm sure all those SERIOUS working dog people with multiple titles on multiple dogs who have to keep their bitches separate would be grateful to know that all they had to do was play crate games and it all would have been fixed.


Honestly, Justine. No. But this has nothing to do with Bitch on Bitch aggression but everything to do with the Malinois. 

From what I have gathered so far, it's absolutely typical for a dog her age, to react like that, and so far I have taken the right steps to deal with the issue. 



> You PERSONALLY told me that you could no longer leave Yukon and Judge alone together because it was obvious at one point that they had gotten into a huge fight while they were unsupervised together. Do NOT change history. THe conversation was a long time ago so I don't recall all the details, but I remember being shocked because you were lamenting having to crate one of them...so you viewed your only option as bringing Judge (or Yukon -- I can't remember which) with you everywhere because you didn't want either one to have to be in a crate while you were gone.


Ah, yes, I remember. That was with my husband. I was gone at training and left Yukon and Judge alone with my husband and he had them outside, in the backyard, UNSUPERVISED and then fell asleep. They were outside ALL day long, from early morning until I got home. Judge just hit maturity. I don't know what happened, but Judge had a couple of injuries when I got back home and the only reason it happened at all is because they were outside, alone, all day long. You don't do that with two males, when one is hitting maturity. My husband should have known better. I asked him, NOT to do that and what did he do? Exactly that, which is why I was going on and on about taking one of them with me because I couldn't trust my husband with the dogs. 

Yeah, back then I was adamant against crating. I still don't like it but it's a great tool and I am using it now. When I leave the house, the dogs are separated and crated. When I leave the house for longer hours, the dogs are with me.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> And here you go. You think that providing a mental workout has anything at all to do with bitch on bitch aggression? I'm sure all those SERIOUS working dog people with multiple titles on multiple dogs who have to keep their bitches separate would be grateful to know that all they had to do was play crate games and it all would have been fixed.


Honestly, Justine. No. But this has nothing to do with Bitch on Bitch aggression but everything to do with the Malinois. 

From what I have gathered so far, it's absolutely typical for a dog her age, to react like that, and so far I have taken the right steps to deal with the issue, because it can be dealt with. 



> You PERSONALLY told me that you could no longer leave Yukon and Judge alone together because it was obvious at one point that they had gotten into a huge fight while they were unsupervised together. Do NOT change history. THe conversation was a long time ago so I don't recall all the details, but I remember being shocked because you were lamenting having to crate one of them...so you viewed your only option as bringing Judge (or Yukon -- I can't remember which) with you everywhere because you didn't want either one to have to be in a crate while you were gone.


Ah, yes, I remember. That was with my husband. I was gone at training and left Yukon and Judge alone with my husband and he had them outside, in the backyard, UNSUPERVISED and then fell asleep. They were outside ALL day long, from early morning until I got home. Judge just hit maturity. I don't know what happened, but Judge had a couple of injuries when I got back home and the only reason it happened at all is because they were outside, alone, all day long. You don't do that with two males, when one is hitting maturity. My husband should have known better. I asked him, NOT to do that and what did he do? Exactly that, which is why I was going on and on about taking one of them with me because I couldn't trust my husband with the dogs. 

Yeah, back then I was adamant against crating. I still don't like it but it's a great tool and I am using it now. When I leave the house, the dogs are separated and crated. When I leave the house for longer hours, the dogs are with me.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I am late to the game, but what is the issue with Sandra doing crate and rotate with her females? And why is everyone so quick to point out past scuffles with her dogs? 

Two adult males (especially intact) will get into fights. The way I've seen it: they have a nasty fight, (if one or both make it) and the hierarchy is established with one dominant and the other the submissive. Pack order changes as dynamics like age, new ones brought in and out, handler changes etc. So why are you pointing the finger regarding that? It happens. Has nothing to do with if someone is a good owner or not. 

Intact females will fight. When I have two intact females around, it's crate/kennel and rotate. Anything else is playing with fire. 

So if Sandra is aware of this and will take steps to manage it, why exactly are the rest of you trying to parent her? She's an adult. She made a choice. The majority made it clear what they think so from here on out, it's Sandra's responsibility and risk to take. Perhaps I just don't know the history here, but she has told you what she plans to do: crate/rotate, separate with rooms/yards, train and learn. What more can one do?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

** uncalled for comments removed by ADMIN. **



Mrs.K said:


> If what you say were true, I could have never visited Lana in Texas and threw my dogs into her pack of females and spent the afternoon together.


This right here shows that you *clearly* do not understand what is being said to you. Putting dogs together for a few hours or even a few days is _not_ the same as having a long term fit for a pack. It doesn't happen that quickly. You can fight me and everyone else telling you all you want, doesn't change the facts.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

o


> I also recall a thread on this forum specifically about the great dane causing problems within your pack. You even went so far as to post a video of his "disturbing" behavior.
> 
> I hope you are having simple selective memory and are not going out of your way to lie right now


Why would I lie? No, I just don't remember a lot of things. I think the main issue with the Great Dane was him running other dogs over, when he's had his five minutes. That had me concerned the most. One point he ran Indra over so bad, that she screamed. He just didn't care and I also remember that some people who knew the breed said that it is GD behavior. They wouldn't know how strong and powerful they are and I remember that pretty much everyone suggested putting him on the leash and separate him from the rest of the pack, which I then did, until his owner came back with the Dachshunds. 
In the house itself, he didn't make any issues. The only issues I had was him running off and me not being able to hold him back, that we didn't have a fenced in yard and he was able to self satisfy his behavior and that I wasn't able to separate the dogs because the house was way to small. 

The other issue I had was my next door neighbors sick dogs who always came running over and riled up my pack. That was an accident waiting to happen, but she didn't care anyways, since she simply got a new dog when one of them got run over on the highway. 
I always made sure to check if her dogs were outside before I let mine out. She never did. She didn't care. She simply opened the door and then it was "on" because they always came over charging. 

That is WHY we bought a home. I was sick and tired of these issues and since then, I didn't have a single incident at home, except for that one time where my husband left two males outside, in the backyard, all day long. That was just STUPID and I got into a huge fight with him about that. 

I simply pushed those memories into the back of my head because I am done brooding over them. There is nothing, absolutely nothing we could have done about the situation. If I hadn't taken the Dane and gotten the house in return, we would have been homeless. We just lived her for a month and the house we were in was not livable. We had no water, because the pipes froze all the time, the toilette went through the floor, aggressive mold everywhere that made me sick. 

Sorry Justine, but bringing up the past, is not the way to go. No, I'm not playing with fire, I am in a much better position now, than I was back then. 

Malinois typical behavior, is very different from bitch to bitch aggression and I am equipped to deal with it and immediately addressed it. 
Also, the separation on walks, is one of those steps. 
I wish you spoke German so you could read all the information I received. 

Her re-direction has nothing to do with bitch on bitch aggression.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

** quote removed by ADMIN since the comments were also removed**

That's it. I am done with this forum! *I am not accused of lying. You are a moderator, and that is a very personal accusation and attack.* I was absolutely stunned that she didn't get along with the other dog because she has NEVER shown that behavior within my pack!

*You do NOT know my pack! And from this day on, that's it. If all you guy do is being nasty and trying to badmouth everything and attack me. That's it. I no longer will share ANYTHING on this forum! Have a great day and continue to rip me apart. Because I no longer care and I will no longer reply. *

***ADMIN agrees with your first comment. Even our moderators are human and sometimes say things that warrant a warning. ***


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Her re-direction has nothing to do with bitch on bitch aggression.





> she has NEVER shown that behavior within my pack!


This tells me you are in some sort of denial that bitch-bitch aggression isn't going to occur. 
Someone said it up above - at some point your first two girls are going to get tired of the 3rd girl "going off" and are going to do something about it.
You've got 3 very high drive girls in your pack now. One who has redirected on the others.

And who knows?? One of my dogs will use distractions such as company arriving to "sneak attack" the dog he's chosen as his current "target" (usually the newest foster dog). I have to watch him like a hawk then.
Redirection is difficult to work through, and if one or both or all three of your other dogs responds in kind, it's going to be a nightmare.

I am just kind of amazed with your level of experience you tout constantly, that you're seemingly in denial about the humongous potential for bitch-bitch aggression which may indeed arise from the situation which has shown itself, redirection.
The fact she is a Mal may only serve to hasten that process.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> This tells me you are in some sort of denial that bitch-bitch aggression isn't going to occur.
> Someone said it up above - at some point your first two girls are going to get tired of the 3rd girl "going off" and are going to do something about it.
> You've got 3 very high drive girls in your pack now. One who has redirected on the others.
> 
> ...


Just have to say... you've had how many dogs come in and out of your home and pack??  If anyone wants to pick someone to listen to about this issue, it would be YOU and Selzer! (Not that others aren't important, too, but with the amount of dogs you've had through and with all Selzer's bitches on her property.....) I am glad that you 2 respond to these issues so much. It's taught me a lot about things I haven't experienced personally! :thumbup:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

No hypocrisy here and not interested in the drama. I do have some experience with both breeds and I wasn't suggesting rehoming her b/c of the leash reactivity. I wasn't even suggesting rehoming because you have three females at the moment (I have a lot of experience with that too). I was suggesting rehoming her through ABMC rescue so that she can go to a home with mal experience and so that you can remain focused on the three dogs you have now. 

It's great that you love her--I had two very drivey, smart, affectionate fosters that were my dream dogs--but I didn't keep either of them because it wouldn't have been fair to them or to my existing animals. Why risk upsetting the balance you have there now?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No, I am not in denial. I know very well about bitch on bitch aggression. I am very well aware of the issues that can occure. I don't know HOW MANY TIMES I have to say that. 

If this topic has taught me one thing, it is that you guys, should not be giving advise on Malinois behavior. There are two people that nailed her behavior and it wasn't anyone of you. 

With this, I will no longer share anything about Ma Deuce, because it's not worth it. I don't know if or if not I'm going to stick around. I was asked not to leave but you people make it impossible to stay because all you do is to pick everything apart and personally attacked. 

How many times do I have to say that I already am:

- Rotating the dogs
- Separated the dogs while going on walks
- Got a muzzle
- Got in touch with a professional that knows Mals
- Actually HAVE a TRAINER who is not only a national helper but a Mal guy

Oh and by the way. Pretty much everyone, that owns Mals, didn't even blink with an eye when I told them what happened. They were like "Yeah, age specific issue, easy to address and not too hard to fix. Do this, this and this." 

And they are well aware of me having multiple bitches, neither of them has any concern about that. 

As for my pack, my trainer, knows my pack. He has seen the dynamic of my pack, he has seen the relationship I have with my pack. If he says, that I have a great relationship and can keep four dogs together, even allowed my pack in HIS house, over night, without being crated... that says a heck of a lot more than anything else that you could throw into my face. 

They all wondered how I'm driving four dogs around in the Jeep Compass. When I told them, they were like "We could not do that with our dogs" whereas our trainer said "She can."

So unless you don't know my dogs personally, how I manage them at home and how my pack dynamic truly is. I suggest you back off and stop with the personal attacks! 

We all have to abide by the same rules and this topic has become far too nasty. 

I am aware of the issues. I am separating and rotating, I did address the re-direction immediately and seeked professional help, IMMEDIATELY and seeked help and more insight about the breed from people that actually KNOW the breed and deal with multiple dog households all consisting of Malinois. 

HOW IS THAT BEING IN DENIAL? 

Now leave me alone. Somebody please lock this topic! It has run it's course and will only become nastier by the minute!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> No hypocrisy here and not interested in the drama. I do have some experience with both breeds and I wasn't suggesting rehoming her b/c of the leash reactivity. I wasn't even suggesting rehoming because you have three females at the moment (I have a lot of experience with that too). I was suggesting rehoming her through ABMC rescue so that she can go to a home with mal experience and so that you can remain focused on the three dogs you have now.
> 
> It's great that you love her--I had two very drivey, smart, affectionate fosters that were my dream dogs--but I didn't keep either of them because it wouldn't have been fair to them or to my existing animals. Why risk upsetting the balance you have there now?


Thank you. That is the only reason why I'm even considering re-homing her. Which has gotten completely under in the Forum. I've said from the very beginning that I am considering re-homing simply because it's too much to work three dogs for IPO and that I don't know if I am capable of concentrating on all three of them equally. It's a challenge. 

As for breed experience, I have no doubt that I am in good hands and can handle her just fine. 

But yes, I am considering it simply because it is too much to work but as long as she is in this house, of course I'm going to work her, especially on that issue since it has to be addressed right away. 

So I really don't get how the heck I am in denial.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

[/QUOTE]Somebody please lock this topic! It has run it's course and will only become nastier by the minute![/QUOTE]

Folks, this thread hasn't been helpful to me at all. I agree, it's gotten pretty nasty 

Kat


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you. That is the only reason why I'm even considering re-homing her. Which has gotten completely under in the Forum. I've said from the very beginning that I am considering re-homing simply because it's too much to work three dogs for IPO and that I don't know if I am capable of concentrating on all three of them equally. It's a challenge.
> 
> As for breed experience, I have no doubt that I am in good hands and can handle her just fine.
> 
> ...


Your sharing this has taught me some about Mals that I didn't know. Thank you for sharing that! I don't know you, but I do believe you're trying to do what's right all the way around. I saw the comments about 'bitch on bitch aggression' as a warning of what may come... not about what happened with the re-directed aggression. You have such a great set up in your home... I'm jealous!!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I saw the comments about 'bitch on bitch aggression' as a warning of what may come...


This, exactly.

I said "may hasten the process", not that it _will. _

I know about the breed only through law enforcement settings, and am giving advice only because you've got three very lively/energetic/drivey girls and at some point toes will be stepped on there.

As bowwow said, why risk upsetting your pack as it exists now?

*All kinds, ages, breeds of dogs can redirect. I have one now and I had a GSD that would redirect, and one day while doing that, almost killed one of our Dachshunds. It's a miracle the dog survived. Either way, I'm aware it's not _just_ a bitch thing, and not just a breed thing. But the problem is if your dogs pick up on it and attack back, just to get the "nutjob" (how they see it, I'm sure) back in line 
It confuses other dogs when the dog they are next to turns to attack them "out of the blue" and it takes the other dogs by surprise. But they'll start anticipating it and tragedy could easily ensue.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> This, exactly.
> 
> I said "may hasten the process", not that it _will. _
> 
> ...


I am aware of that. But like I said, I am not risking it, I am considering re-homing. Even said that from the beginning in her picture topic, because it is a lot to handle. 

So far, the pack is not upset at all because the three Shepherds get their alone time. If they need to retreat, they retreat into their crates and I make sure that both, Ma and the Shepherds get a break from each other. So far it has worked excellent. 

I may not have liked crating in the past, I still don't like it but I did see the advantages of it and realized that it is an excellent tool that should be used in a multiple dog house hold.



> *All kinds, ages, breeds of dogs can redirect. I have one now and I had a GSD that would redirect, and one day while doing that, almost killed one of our Dachshunds. It's a miracle the dog survived. Either way, I'm aware it's not _just_ a bitch thing, and not just a breed thing. But the problem is if your dogs pick up on it and attack back, just to get the "nutjob" (how they see it, I'm sure) back in line
> It confuses other dogs when the dog they are next to turns to attack them "out of the blue" and it takes the other dogs by surprise. But they'll start anticipating it and tragedy could easily ensue.


Yes, I am aware of that too. Some said that it may not just be a breed thing and it is seen throughout all breeds, however, it is seen more in breeds like the Mal merely because they are prone to reactivity. So most experienced Mal people know the issue and how to address it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> How many times do I have to say that I already am:
> 
> - Rotating the dogs
> - Separated the dogs while going on walks
> ...


Mrs. K, don't worry about it. Everyone loves armchair quarterbacking. You've already done everything you can and should do to address the issue--I don't know what people expect you do to beyond that, besides rehome the Mal. You're experienced enough to know the risks and have taken measures to reduce the risk. I am not sure why everyone is so up in arms over this, unless it's something personal.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Yes, I am aware of that too. Some said that it may not just be a breed thing and it is seen throughout all breeds, however, it is seen more in breeds like the Mal merely because they are prone to reactivity. So most experienced Mal people know the issue and how to address it.


So I'm curious, as mentioned, we have one currently (a Dachshund) and have had fosters in the past, plus our last GSD would redirect. 
What is their method of addressing it, just "avoidance" or is there something else that can be done about it?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm just being selfish, but I like reading about Ma (and any other Mals) because my brother has a young Mal/Boxer and I can learn a few things about the breed traits. The 'malligator' thing is hilarious, it's so true. His dog works his mouth the way children chew gum! Smack, open, smack, open....it's so funny to watch. I hope you stick around, Mrs. K.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> So I'm curious, as mentioned, we have one currently (a Dachshund) and have had fosters in the past, plus our last GSD would redirect.
> What is their method of addressing it, just "avoidance" or is there something else that can be done about it?


THIS I want to know!! Last night when Grim was playing with Layla rough housing, he turned around and nailed me!  I'd like to know if anything can be done about this as well!! 

Mrs. K... please don't take it personally and leave.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> So I'm curious, as mentioned, we have one currently (a Dachshund) and have had fosters in the past, plus our last GSD would redirect.
> What is their method of addressing it, just "avoidance" or is there something else that can be done about it?


No, actually not avoidance. 

Funny side-note, they didn't quite understand why I called it "reaktiv" (reactive) and not leinenaggression (leash aggressive). That is the first difference in how they see it. 

1. walk her alone so she can't guide or feed off of the others and can't re-direct on them either 
2. it is normal leash aggression because it's capped/bottled up drive that releases into the "Uebersprungshandlung" (which I guess is the re-direction)
3. While it needs to be addressed it shouldn't be overrated either and I shouldn't put too much pressure on her because that might actually worsen the issue instead of making it better. 
4. The best way to resolve the problem is to condition an alternative behavior. 
5. Seek out situations where she has to pass dogs, in the beginning don't get to close. Condition the wanted behavior, give her security and work your way up. Since Mals learn quickly, want to please, work and learn best when you stay calm and even better with positive reinforcement it is said that you can use either the Pavlov method or plain old conditioning to make them focus on you instead of what is going on around them. In other words, engagement. Most of the time the behavior is coupled with insecurity and since they are young, they are loudmouths on top of that. So giving them the security, taking charge, either Pavlov or Conditioning, is the way, they solve the problem on the leash. And once they got that, it's not a problem to walk them in a group. First, they need to learn it on their own, though.

Others simply use the "pacifier-effect" and have them carry something around in their mouth. 

The most important thing is to stay calm and get them to calm down. 
Nobody was surprised at all. None was like "Oh my gosh, you must get rid of the dog." they were more like "Well, plain ol' Mal, welcome to the club."


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ps: I really liked when my friends wife said:

_"The art in handling Malinois is to teach them to be calm." _


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To be clear, I do not think, nor did I say at any point, redirection was cause to make you "get rid of her".

I do think you're overwhelmed or will be, as you already stated, in training all three. And because of the redirection, it could cause your current dogs to fight with her, and once that starts, if it starts, it will be "all done but the shouting" basically.

I had consulted with a trainer over our little psycho, Pebbles, who redirects onto other dogs, and they said basically the same thing - teach them new behavior to replace the redirection.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

My pit-bull developed leash reactivity and redirected her frustration onto one of my old shepherd girls. It took me off guard and I knocked her off my big dog and scolded her. She was such a softie that she never, ever thought about doing that again. She got to the point where she would literally pretend that she didn't see other dogs.

Everyday with my new pit mix, i am reminded of how much easier they are than GSDs. I can't imagine managing multiple high drive dogs.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, Mrs.K, his dog really works himself up! This is just my casual observation from our dogs playing in the backyard, but he's so intense it's crazy! The energy he puts into *everything* surprises me, as a long-time GSD owner.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I want this muzzle just because of the way it looks. Maybe people will back off when they see my dog in public.

Leerburg | Muzzle Fighting for Police Service Dogs DVD

http://leerburg.com/708.htm


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I think i'll get a muzzle just to make my dog look more fierce and prevent unwanted attention on certain walks and to drive fear to certain neighbors. Hahaha...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol, robk, years ago I ordered an beautiful agitation muzzle from them for the same purpose. I just checked, they don't sell them anymore. I know it sounds bad, but I wanted a muzzle to keep people away just on looks alone, but with enough play that if needed, my dog could still get a chomp in. I never got to see if my imaginary situation would play out though, lol. My puppy's got a ways to grow yet, the muzzle hangs off him.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

FWIW on muzzles. Woolf wears a muzzle when we are out in tight situations. I had thought, like so many believe, that the muzzle would be a complete turn off and people would avoid him.

I had a total smack my forehead minute when I had an adult man rushing up to pet Woolf. Here I am sitting Woolf behind me, blocking the man, telling the man no (in a very not nice way), Woolf is ballistic. I'm saying what the are you doing. The man says 'he can't bite me with a muzzle on'.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Are ALL Mals the same with the same temperament? If so, that is an example of extremely tight line breeding to develop that consistent a breed temperament.


My Mal is working line, so she is very energetic, but I don't have problems with her and other dogs now that she is older. But, I was talking to a vendor at an AKC conformation show about Malinois, since I had mine with me, and somebody else chimed in about how they were were total nutcases. The vendor interrupted her and pulled her two Malinois out of their crates in the back of the tent and started saying how they were not "nutcases" and relatively easy to live with. They were both very sweet dogs. 

Obviously, these were conformation lines, and the majority of the Malinois bred in the USA are from "working" lines by people who may, or may not, know what they are doing. 

(Mrs. K., Love your house!)


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't know if or if not I'm going to stick around. I was asked not to leave but you people make it impossible to stay because all you do is to pick everything apart and personally attacked.


Mrs. K., I always look forward to anything you add to a topic. It always makes perfect sense to me. I would hate to see you leave.

Malinois are not GSDs. I know that, and GSD owners should, also. 

(I also like to hear what Selzer has to say.)


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow, I finally made it to the end. I have used the cheap plastic basket muzzles for years. I think I have 5 different sizes. One of my current dogs gets really excited when going to the field for some running, so that one gets to wear a muzzle so there aren't any accidents. AS hard as he's tried, he hasn't been able to pull it off his head. 

Italian Basket Muzzle - Size 10 | Pet Supplies, Horse Supplies, Dog Supplies | KVsupply.com


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> To be clear, I do not think, nor did I say at any point, redirection was cause to make you "get rid of her".
> 
> I do think you're overwhelmed or will be, as you already stated, in training all three. And because of the redirection, it could cause your current dogs to fight with her, and once that starts, if it starts, it will be "all done but the shouting" basically.
> 
> * I had consulted with a trainer over our little psycho, Pebbles, who redirects onto other dogs, and they said basically the same thing - teach them new behavior to replace the redirection.*




Yeah, what threw me off was how she exploded and the intensity of the reaction. Guess, they don't do anything half way. 

But even that seems to be rather normal and they said "Don't overrate it." and were like, don't seek out to many opinions, it is such a normal behavior, go out, play, romp, engage and get to know her, most of the time it will solve the problem all by itself. 

So I'm just doing what I was advised and don't really sweat over it and take it with the common sense approach.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do have my dogs conditioned to the cheap italian basket muzzle for medical emergencies and sometimes to leave alone an injury......only thing I have to do is punch some new holes in the strap as they don't punch enough. But that is easy. I did have a dog break one, but it was old. They do work well. IF your dog ever needs to be muzzled it is nice to know they will take it in stride because they are used to the idea.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Mals are wired tight. Rafi used to go from 0 to 100 in one second flat. However, he's got an excellent temperament and is SUPER biddable. So I taught him to carry a ball EVERYWHERE. I don't post pictures on here anymore but if you see pics of him he always has a ball and he will redirect onto the ball when he sees a squirrel, bunny, etc. That is a method I have used for other dogs--I give them a toy when they get excited and they learn very quickly to grab the toy and not my hand or another dogs' head. But that is just the beginning with a mal...

I had a lot of challenges with Rafi when I adopted him. He really kept me on my toes. He went from being relatively calm to being a total nutball in about a month (once he got comfortable in my home). He was more like a kangaroo or Tigger than a dog. He would grab his leash and try to drag me down the street, fire off at other dogs, jump straight up in the air and thrash around when he saw other dogs, steal other dogs toys, grab other dogs by the scruff and try to drag them around...and that's just the beginning. He also could find and catch a mouse (or a rat) in about 2 seconds. :shocked: 

Had I had a younger dog or dogs who also needed attention I would have had a really tough time keeping up with him. As it was, it was something new every week for the first year that I had him. He was full of beans! My friends love him but they have trouble handling him because even at 6 years old he is still a handful. He will walk all over anyone that he perceives isn't a strong leader and I can't ever slack off of his training. That is where I'm coming from here.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

We don't lock threads just because people don't like what is being said.

There is a very simple solution.

You don't like it? Don't post anymore.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm curious if Malinois dogs are so reactive as a result of the job they must do...for instance, in the case of Dachshunds, they must be extremely reactive as the job they did required lightening fast reactions to what could be a badger sneaking up on them, etc...or if Mals are that way due to other issues like focusing on another trait, speed for instance, or agility. 

Did they intend them to be "sharp" dogs? Is it a byproduct of something they were bred for?
Weren't they bred to be herding dogs as well? 
(Maybe I ought to google all this...!)


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

Along with this topic, I am having similar issues with my 15mo GSD, intact female. She has begun attacking the elderly female beagle in the home (she was spayed before 1st heat) and is 12 years old. They have been together since the GSD was 8 weeks.

The GSD is not spayed yet (finished 2nd heat 3 weeks ago) as she developed IBD and her weight loss was so severe they didn't want to stress her with surgery....planned now for Dec.

I hadn't thought about muzzle in the home and she has never had one on. Would that be better than constantly keeping them separated? It is a major pain the ass to never let them out together and always feeling like one is being neglected. 

I am praying that this will resolve and they will go back to pre-heat relationship but from what I've read that doesn't sound likely. It has certainly taken much of the enjoyment out of home life.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Kitmcd she might still scare the crap and batter your poor beagle. I really feel sorry for your poor beagle to have to live with an angry bitch shepherd there isnt anything worse than that. Imagine the stress it is going through? How easy it is for your shepherd to kill it? it wont forgive your beagle ever.


Your shepherd will end up killing it if you make one small mistake. Attacks get worse and worse.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

kitmcd said:


> Along with this topic, I am having similar issues with my 15mo GSD, intact female. She has begun attacking the elderly female beagle in the home (she was spayed before 1st heat) and is 12 years old. They have been together since the GSD was 8 weeks.
> 
> The GSD is not spayed yet (finished 2nd heat 3 weeks ago) as she developed IBD and her weight loss was so severe they didn't want to stress her with surgery....planned now for Dec.
> 
> ...


You really need to start your own thread :thumbup:


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## kitmcd (Aug 31, 2011)

Will do! Sorry didn't mean to hijack. :blush:


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Did they intend them to be "sharp" dogs? Is it a byproduct of something they were bred for?
> Weren't they bred to be herding dogs as well?
> (Maybe I ought to google all this...!)


It's in the breeding. Not all Malinois are "sharp" or "reactive". Like I said, there are show lines and "working" lines. There are many more working Malinois than show/pet Malinois. And then there are people breeding a "balanced" dog that is not based on show conformation, but are active enough and child safe. I know at least one of each of the 3 types.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

This post is old,but I thought I would add my 0.02 here. I've learned the hard way when it comes to dropping your guard with dogs who have seemed to be best buddies and then got into a fight.This has always been between female dogs and they have had various degrees of seriousness. 

Even playing can quickly get out of hand especially when the dogs 'pack up' and things get competitive.We usually have between 4 to 5 foster dogs 
here in addition to our personal dog and don't let them all run together unsupervised .Some may say that it's because we aren't capable of controlling the dogs,but I see it as a way of preventing more fights. Depending on what dogs we have,they can all be out if we are just hanging out in the den or something,but the minute we can't watch them,they are put up until we can supervise again. 



As much you may love this dog,I really do think you should listen to some of the warnings you are getting.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I only read the first 3 pages of this thread, but I just want to add.... 

We've had same sex aggression issues in our house. First time was with two males, second time with two females. 

First time with the males - they were littermates. Raised together and were BEST BUDS. They were inseparable. If one would go out of sight of the other, someone would start screaming bloody murder until he could see his bubba again. 
Well, one day, when they were about 2 years old (maybe older?) they got in a fight. Days passed. Every day, there was at least one fight. Eventually, we made the decision to rehome one of them. 

Next story: 
We bring Gracie (pit) home from the shelter to foster her. 
She got along perfectly with everyone. Until about 4-5 months later, when my mom decided that she was going to adopt Gracie, Sania (senior lab) attacked Gracie. 
Since that day, they CANNOT be together, or they will try to kill each other. 
Gracie won't start a fight, but she will finish one. And when you put a 4 year old pit against a 14 year old lab - who will win? 
Thankfully we have gates set up throughout the entire house. Whenever I move out, I'm taking Sania with me so that Mom can live more stress-free. 
Anyone who has ever had to rotate dogs day in and day out knows it gets old and it's tiring and STRESSFUL, especially when company comes over. Not to mention, you lose a lot of bonding time because you can't sit with both dogs next to you. One is always in a separate room, and it can be a little heartbreaking.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Again, this is not and was never about same sex aggression.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They lived together and they were the same sex, how are you so sure that it wasn't same-sex aggression? It fits. The mal is reaching sexual maturity and often same-sex aggression happens around that time. It really does not matter if neither, one, or both are spayed. They are still females.

We take your word on the aggression toward your dogs being re-directed aggression of course. I think the same-sex aggression that we are discussing was in the previous home, the reason they gave her up to you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, they worried that the Pit Bull would kill her the next time. 

From everything I saw, up until now and the research I did on Mals, if she had an issue with the girls, and there was same sex aggression going out form her, it would have already come out because of their explosive nature. 

As for the re-direction, didn't happen again. We are at the point where she's mainly neutral towards other dogs now.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Anyone who has ever had to rotate dogs day in and day out knows it gets old and it's tiring and STRESSFUL, especially when company comes over.


Rotation is nothing new to me. It is how I grew up. It's the same with Kennel Dogs. You rotate them in and out, all day long. So to me it is normal and not stressful at all. Just like you rotate the horses in and out from stables to the paddocks or pastures. 
So no issues there at all. However, that being said, we are nowhere near that point. 

The most important thing, from experience, with a pack like that, is that each of them has a retreat where they can get a break from each other. Each of them has their little spot where they won't get bothered by another dog. It's usually upstairs, either the crate or the bedroom. For the male it's the bathroom in the bathtub.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For people with a kennel of dogs, rotation is not stressful, just a way of life. For pet owners, well, they generally aren't signing up for that, and rarely are set up for that. It can be very stressful.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is why I'm not the least bit worried about it.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> That is why I'm not the least bit worried about it.


You have a GREAT set up in your house layout, though, if you needed to do that! I'm very jealous!


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