# Please help me understand the "breeder bashing" rule here



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

A recent thread that revealed a clear case of fraud makes me interested in understanding more about the rules. I have no idea if this is the proper place to start this thread. I actually wanted to put it in the "Weekly Discussion" section but discovered I was not authorized to start a thread there.

In any event, I am really curious why this so called "breeder bashing" rule exists in the first place and what the parameters are in terms of alerting people to outright fraud.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I don't know myself, but _I_ would certainly want to know about a shady or unethical breeder if there was *hard evidence* and not just "he said, she said" third, fourth, and fifth person stories that could possibly be rumoured to maybe have a shred of possible truth.

I sort of thought everyone here tried to help everyone else in all manner of GSD, but this is one area that seems to be taboo, which in reality should be the highest on the watchdog list to keep people in general, and particularly members here from getting screwed.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

In short, the owners of the board doesn't want to be responsible for a slander lawsuit based on hearsay. To avoid this, everything negative is done through private messages.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

PMs are fine. But very often "breeder bashing" is rumors, innuendo, or a case of they-don't-do-it-like-I-think-they-should. 
There are certainly bad breeders, and buyers with every reason to want to get the word out. This is just not the place. 


German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Breeding - General


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I understand the he-said/she-said debate. But, look at sites like Angie's List and Yelp - open forums! You get a range of opinions. And, as a user, you can look through the pros and cons, and actually learn from them! When you see a lot of user reviews, you can find patterns within them and understand those that best fit your sensibilities. When everything is private, it is a big mystery!

I would think a site like this would want people to have a full set of knowledge in choosing a breeder. It is weird that this subject is so taboo. 

I actually think most breeders who post here would welcome open reviews. They should, because a full set of reviews will help people understand what kind of homes are good for their dogs. 

I would hypothesize that good breeders don't worry about the quality of their dogs, they worry more about the quality of the homes they send their dogs too. More info on what is actually a good home for their dogs should be welcome information.

Now, as most of you know, I am, and always will be a rescue/shelter person when it comes to finding a pet. But, I have been on this board enough to recognize that those who are intent on buying from a breeder NEED better input. I always imagine that for every person who posts about looking for a breeder, there are probably 500 who are just lurking and never benefit from PMs.

Anyway, I think it is somewhat ridiculous that in this day and and age the owners of the board really worry about liability. It seems like that could be handled easily in the way they set up the terms of the board itself. I mean, really, look at everything that is reviewed online in an open forum... those sites seemed to have managed liability issues, why not this one!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

In this day and age you wouldn't believe the silly minor stuff people get their panties all in a knot about and are contacting board owners and administrators with threats of legal action! 

If information is in the public domain, i.e: verified news articles, court transcripts, etc, then it is part of Current Affairs and can be discussed openly. Even the situation here that you are referring is a buyer/breeder disagreement. Even though in this situation, we can agree that the breeder is openly deceptive, we would need the force of a court of law behind us to prove it! And the breeder can just as much turn around and argue that the buyer is the one who is setting them up to look bad by making up the whole story, posting pics of random dogs they found on the internet (may argue that those are not the pics they sent), and that the pup shown in not the pup they sold the buyer, but another dog they got from somewhere else, and is now using pics and videos of this pup to try to scam the refund price of the _other_ pup they sold them (you know, the actual pure-bred one the buyer is hiding and not showing anyone), etc, etc, etc. 

I mean, this is the internet!!! ANYONE can say anything and post pictures from anywhere and make up stories about anything at all! Who, on this board are we to police all that?? Though there is absolutely no reason for us to doubt the veracity of the member's posts, and see through the blatant deception of the breeder/seller, many times there is much more to the story than what is presented. 

Best thing to do is to help people get educated, so they can recognize a responsible breeder from a con-artist, and recognize red flags that pop up, and know what to look for and what questions to ask.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

LifeofRiley does make some good points though. With websites like Yelp where everything is rated and reviewed... how is this website any different?

Why would this website be responsible for lawsuits and Yelp and other similar type websites can continue to operate without having to worry about stuff like that?


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> In this day and age you wouldn't believe the silly minor stuff people get their panties all in a knot about and are contacting board owners and administrators with threats of legal action!
> 
> If information is in the public domain, i.e: verified news articles, court transcripts, etc, then it is part of Current Affairs and can be discussed openly. Even the situation here that you are referring is a buyer/breeder disagreement. Even though in this situation, we can agree that the breeder is openly deceptive, we would need the force of a court of law behind us to prove it! And the breeder can just as much turn around and argue that the buyer is the one who is setting them up to look bad by making up the whole story, posting pics of random dogs they found on the internet (may argue that those are not the pics they sent), and that the pup shown in not the pup they sold the buyer, but another dog they got from somewhere else, and is now using pics and videos of this pup to try to scam the refund price of the _other_ pup they sold them (you know, the actual pure-bred one the buyer is hiding and not showing anyone), etc, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


You could make the same argument against anyone sharing an opinion about anything that is often discussed and debated on this forum - food, training, vets, natural remedies, safe toys, shelters, rescue. 

This is the internet... the whole point is to see multiple opinions and determine which ones make the most sense to you!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Here's the reality: Privately owned board, they can do what they want, heh


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is it the owners of the board or the Mods making the decision
about breeder discussions?



Lucy Dog said:


> In short, the owners of the board doesn't want to be responsible for a slander lawsuit based on hearsay. To avoid this, everything negative is done through private messages.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe the admins and owner make the rules, mods enforce whether they agree or not.

There are PLENTY of outlets to air grievances and bash breeders.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree with the rule. Time and time again I have seen people with ZERO personal experience with a breeder rip them a new one based on a poorly designed web page or based on truly minor grievances. I have also rolled my eyes at some of those who are worshipped and adored for no specific reason.

When someone is looking at a breeder and you have something negative to say....there is the ability to send a Private Message. If you want to participate in a feeding frenzy, all you have to do is go to PDB and see what happens when breeder bashing is unmoderated.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, you can say that you have experience or knowledge about breeder XYZ and you would not recommend them, if someone is asking. 

There are other dog boards where people are allowed to be as negative and as attacking as they want, and good breeder's names are dragged through the mud on a regular basis by scammers (scammers come in both varieties: buyers and sellers). 

Since there are THOUSANDS of big and small GSD breeders in North America, both big and small, it is IMPOSSIBLE to police and determine who is right and who is wrong. 

Again, in the case that you mention, it is ONE individual that is lying and scamming, and I, and board's admin and owner's, are not in the business to publicly destroy private individuals. There are many, many, many reasons and examples why we have a rule about no breeder bashing, and it stands. 

So bottom line, do your research, and take personal responsibility for your decisions, and not point fingers at the internet's fault. 

As for products, If I post that I like bouncy ball X better than bouncy ball Y, I"m posting a personal preference over an _object_, and not bashing a human being for being unethical or being a liar.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I remember a thread about a breeder and the fact that soft ears(among other problems) were common in the breeders history. Several people and this board were threatened by the breeder of being sued for slander. Thread was deleted. This was before the board changed ownership.

Breeder is still producing those soft ears!


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

It's one thing to be producing dogs like that. It's an entirely different matter if the breeder is not telling the customer that fact.

There is no law in the land that says ears must stand on a GSD's head, but if they don't and the buyer is expecting a dog to conform to the standard and the breeder advertises as such, then buyers should know there is a _potential_ that a puppy may not meet the standard.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The ears eventually stand with help. The breeder has the price bracket system...I doubt the buyers even think of things like soft ears. They are too wowed with all the champions way back in the pedigrees.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LifeofRiley said:


> You could make the same argument against anyone sharing an opinion about anything that is often discussed and debated on this forum - food, training, vets, natural remedies, safe toys, shelters, rescue.
> 
> This is the internet... the whole point is to see multiple opinions and determine which ones make the most sense to you!


Food/nutrition threads should be monitered as well....I'd hate for a large petfood conglomorate to sue the board and members for posting opinions on what they are manufacturing.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If someone came on the board and posted negative things about a breeder, the first thing I do is look at the POSTER.

Is it someone that has been on the board for awhile or did they just join and start accusing?

Is it someone that has breeding experience?

Is it someone that REALLY knows the types of dogs the breeder is producing? For example, is a person with an American line saying negative things about a breeder that produces working lines?


For me it all comes down to - am I going to take ONE persons' word - a STRANGER - about a breeder or am I going to do my OWN RESEARCH and decide for myself??


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm a breeder, I've been bashed, I'm still here, I'm still breeding. Many on here don't like my dogs, my puppy buyers love them. Wait until I publish my book, I'm sure Ill have those who like it and those that don't. 
Most bashing done by those on this board have no personal knowledge of the breeder or their dogs. They filter the German shepherd dog through lenses that fit their mindset - if it doesn't filter through, then they bash based on their perspectives. True education as an adult never happens until one can open their lens and allow for a different perspective to enter and then take the time to understand and appreciate that other perspective. Until that occurs, there will never be perspective transformation.
Whew, that wore me out.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lauri outlined the biggest issues with allowing people to post about breeders.

A huge issue with online reviews for me is that usually you only get negative reviews or experiences. People that are happy with the product, don't usually take the time to let others (strangers) know about it. But if they have a bad product, they want to let the world know and affect the purchases of that product in the future.

Like...if I get a dog from a breeder, and its exactly what I expected because I did my research, why would I make an online review of them saying that I got exactly the dog I wanted? It's a waste of time....I'll just enjoy my dog.

Look at this website...how many more members do we get because people have PROBLEMS rather than just wanting to learn more about their amazing animal? I'm one of those that joined because I had a problem...

I don't know how many times I've seen a poster with less than 10 posts to their name decide to bash a line of dogs due to incorrect information or just bias from lack of experience. It upsets me when that happens since then new people will read it and not pay any attention on who's writing it and what's behind that opinion.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I personally don't agree with the rule, but it's not my board and I don't make the rules! I understand why they want to avoid the whole breeder-bashing issue, though. It can be tedious and tiresome dealing with irate, sue-happy BYBs.

I would think that, if you simply stick to the facts and avoid any editorializing, you should be able to say anything you want about a breeder, as long as what you are saying is true, because the truth is not actionable. However, there is no way for the mods to determine who is telling the truth, so they just avoid the issue altogether.

For example, Let's say I bought a pup from a breeder and there is a hip guarantee. I have the pup x-rayed and the OFA report comes back as moderately dysplastic. I forward the x-rays and OFA report to the breeder and the breeder says "Oh, this dog doesn't have hip dysplasia--OFA is just too picky." and refuses to honor the hip guarantee, that is something I think people should know about, and as I've simply presented the facts rather than saying "x breeder is a liar and a cheat", I don't think it's "bashing", and it should be allowed... BUT, again, it's not my forum!

So, were anyone to ask about x breeder, I would have to put this information into a private message.

There are other places on the internet where you can freely bash away, so my advice to people seeking a breeder is to investigate thoroughly, and not rely on this forum alone for your research.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Lauri outlined the biggest issues with allowing people to post about breeders.
> 
> A huge issue with online reviews for me is that usually you only get negative reviews or experiences. People that are happy with the product, don't usually take the time to let others (strangers) know about it. But if they have a bad product, they want to let the world know and affect the purchases of that product in the future.
> 
> ...


 
I would venture to say there are probably thousands (tens of thousands) of GSD experts worldwide who have fewer than 10 posts in this particular forum, or any internet forum, for that matter.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> A huge issue with online reviews for me is that usually you only get negative reviews or experiences. People that are happy with the product, don't usually take the time to let others (strangers) know about it. But if they have a bad product, they want to let the world know and affect the purchases of that product in the future.


That's a really good point for general review websites.

A board like this is a little bit different, though, in that a lot of posters here are active in various conformation and sport venues, and talk about doing those things with their dogs. Even looking at somebody's signature line can tell me "oh, this dog from X litter and Y kennel name grew up to achieve Z sport title. Cool!" and then I can make a mental note to remember that kennel name for my hypothetical future competition dog, or send that poster a pm for more information when it comes time for me to get really serious about choosing a breeder.

And a lot of other people just like to post happy pictures and talk about fun things their dogs did in regular life.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JackandMattie said:


> I would venture to say there are probably thousands (tens of thousands) of GSD experts worldwide who have fewer than 10 posts in this particular forum, or any internet forum, for that matter.


That's not the point...the point is that these people come on here, don't build up any kind of respect or prove their knowledge in anyway before starting to bash X or Y.

You can very well have all the experience in the world, but how am I supposed to know that? Just from you telling me that you do? That's part of the internet...you can't really trust everyone and everything they say. So to allow such people to just bash away, or review a website and make a judgement on a dog, is just wrong. There's no reason for it.

I get very confused anytime I see people asking complete strangers for advice on dog A or dog B. Even worse is when they state that someone else that they know/trust has told them to go with one of those dogs. Why ask people their opinion when you have no idea what kind of experience or knowledge they have?


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I understand the general policy and don't disagree with it to the extent it is based upon actual bashing. My position is based more on maintaining order than on legal concerns (which are way overblown). However, like Freestep, I think factual accounts should be allowed. For instance, there was a post in the last couple weeks where someone disclosed that her dog had health problems and disclosed the breeder's reaction to the news. She then posted a link to the the dog's pedigree and the pedigree was deleted because if someone clicked the link they would see the kennel name and it was determined that identifying kennel in this context could be construed as bashing. I didn't get it. If your dog has health problems, you cannot disclose your dog's name because it may identify the kennel and identifying the kennel could be considered bashing? 

Consider what happens now: rather than factual information being posted, someone says "I pm'd you." This is code for "I have something negative to say, but can't post it because of board rules." Now everyone is left with the impression that there is some unidentified negative out there but neither the breeder nor those who have been happy with the breeder have an opportunity to respond. Is that really better? Regardless, the owner is the one who makes the rules and, I guess if you (generally) feel strongly about these rules, you (generally) are free to go elsewhere in search of information.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

In light of the board rules, that is exactly what it means when someone wants them to be PM'ed about the kennel or breeder.

If it wasn't negative information why would you have to PM someone?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The thing is...so few people have actual first hand experience with a breeder.

Most breeders are very local...and although the forum increases your chances for finding someone with a dog from breeder X...they're still very slim.

If you've ever seen the "what do you think of this breeder" threads, you'll see a lot of judgments being made based off of what is seen or isn't seen on the website. Not very fair to said breeder. People then add in their own opinion..."no SchH titles...crap dogs" "mixing of lines...don't know what they're doing"...and it can go on and on picking apart every single "red flag" someone comes up with.

It's very hard to keep your opinion out of something you see. People will let others know how they feel about that breeder. In the end, if we could only limit it to commenting on breeders that you've had actual first hand knowledge/contact with that breeder...then we'd probably see maybe one or two posts for each one of those threads.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Everyone is an expert on the internet. Let the buyer beware.

If you want future reviewers to know you had a private comment you can always say "sent you a PM" and if someone else inquires about the same breeder they will find that and can send a PM to the person who sent the PM. I would really hope that folks would do more research than that.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It is a problem though when certain breeders request the entire thread disappear. I can think of one in particular who has had threads disappear twice..... and the negative comments were not even -that- negative.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MichaelE said:


> In light of the board rules, that is exactly what it means when someone wants them to be PM'ed about the kennel or breeder.
> 
> If it wasn't negative information why would you have to PM someone?


If I had a breeder that did something wonderful for me that I felt was too personal to post for the whole world to read, I'd PM you and let you know. 

Like gave me a financial break, or drove a distance just to meet me. Or called a friend of a friend to help me with training. Something that they did for me, and not all the other puppy buyers.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

jmdjack said:


> I understand the general policy and don't disagree with it to the extent it is based upon actual bashing. My position is based more on maintaining order than on legal concerns (which are way overblown). However, like Freestep, I think factual accounts should be allowed. For instance, there was a post in the last couple weeks where someone disclosed that her dog had health problems and disclosed the breeder's reaction to the news. She then posted a link to the the dog's pedigree and the pedigree was deleted because if someone clicked the link they would see the kennel name and it was determined that identifying kennel in this context could be construed as bashing. I didn't get it. If your dog has health problems, you cannot disclose your dog's name because it may identify the kennel and identifying the kennel could be considered bashing?
> 
> Consider what happens now: rather than factual information being posted, someone says "I pm'd you." This is code for "I have something negative to say, but can't post it because of board rules." Now everyone is left with the impression that there is some unidentified negative out there but neither the breeder nor those who have been happy with the breeder have an opportunity to respond. Is that really better? Regardless, the owner is the one who makes the rules and, I guess if you (generally) feel strongly about these rules, you (generally) are free to go elsewhere in search of information.


I think this post most closely mirrors my thoughts on the matter. 

I think that "breeder bashing" is too broadly defined in terms of how it is enforced. No one wants a free for all where personal vendettas are played out in a public forum.  But, that is a far cry from someone reporting documented health issues and/or clear cases of deceptive practices.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the intention is to bash breeders, PDB is the place to go. BUt this board has more exposure it seems. Unless people lurk but don't post over there....most of the posters are the same handful of people.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Lilie said:


> If I had a breeder that did something wonderful for me that I felt was too personal to post for the whole world to read, I'd PM you and let you know.
> 
> Like gave me a financial break, or drove a distance just to meet me. Or called a friend of a friend to help me with training. Something that they did for me, and not all the other puppy buyers.


I wouldn't mention her good will at all. Every buyer that hears that might expect the same treatment. That wouldn't sit too well with the breeder knowing you told someone else or even more than one person.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the rule, I can take it or leave it. As already mentioned, if you want to find out negative information about a breeder you can get the information via PMs. When I see someone post that they'll PM someone about a certain breeder I automatically jump to the conclusion, right or wrong, that it's going to be a negative response.


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