# Stop hating on The Dog Whisperer-he has saved many dogs from being PTS!



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Why do people hate on Cesar? He has helped many dogs-saved many aggressive ones from being put down. Helped dogs overcome their fears. Receives over a hundred calls a day from desperate dog owners. Has a successful show. Sometimes I think people are just jealous of him and his success. Here is a link for everyone-




Sorry for adding yet another one of these Dog Whisperer threads but there are so many anti-Cesar threads that I am going to take a stand for him and post one in his favor.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't HATE him I just don't see him as anything all that original (exercise your dog, set rules and boundaries....yeah, no-brainers), plus I don't like his flooding techniques.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

He must have something special because he has succeeded. He does help dogs-many who are very aggressive. People call him about 100 per day so he must know something that many don't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah like most behaviorists, since that's their job  I watch his show all the time and actually enjoy watching it. I think it's a little played up though, most of the dogs don't seem all that aggressive they just treat their owners like doormats and need some NILIF. The last two dogs I've seen that were (IMO) aggressive he couldn't really help, both of them ended up being surrendered to him as a last resort. I like when he takes the dogs rollerblading, the dogs all look like they're having a blast!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I don't HATE him I just don't see him as anything all that original (exercise your dog, set rules and boundaries....yeah, no-brainers), plus I don't like his flooding techniques.


:thumbup:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

he sucks and if you like him i'm going to down grade
my opinon of you. :silly:



Germanshepherdlova said:


> He must have something special because he has succeeded. He does help dogs-many who are very aggressive. People call him about 100 per day so he must know something that many don't.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yeah like most behaviorists, since that's their job  I watch his show all the time and actually enjoy watching it. I think it's a little played up though, most of the dogs don't seem all that aggressive they just treat their owners like doormats and need some NILIF. The last two dogs I've seen that were (IMO) aggressive he couldn't really help, both of them ended up being surrendered to him as a last resort.


Weren't those cases where he took them and they did great at his dog psychology center-but when the owner showed up everything went down hill-so he kept them?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Let me be the first to ask: What is a flooding technique?
I have probably seen every Cesar Millan show and don't know what you mean.
Just curious.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't remember, I've seen so many episodes and he has such a huge pack I can't keep them straight any more besides Daddy but I think he passed away?


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

yes Daddy passed away,


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> Let me be the first to ask: What is a flooding technique?
> I have probably seen every Cesar Millan show and don't know what you mean.
> Just curious.


It's a psychological term. If there is a problem like the dog is scared of something you just make him do it repeatedly thinking that eventually he just won't be scared anymore, like when he was dragging the Great Dane across the slippery floor. Or if the dog is resource guarding something he will just keep putting that in front of the dog and correcting the dog over and over. If the dog has problems with other dogs he puts in into a pack of a dozen or more dogs. That sort of thing is flooding. Wikipedia or Google can probably give you the Psych101 definition. Dog trainers do this and sometimes people have it done for their phobias. I'm not sure how well it works or not, I just don't train my dogs that way or treat them like that and wouldn't let CM do it to any of my dogs. I'd rather use NILIF, have the dog DO something and get rewarded for doing the right thing rather than constantly telling him NOT to do something.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't hate him. I read his book. I have seen a couple of his episodes. I think his methods are outdated. I think he is a natural dog person, and he could succeed using any method, including positive methods that people poo poo. I think his general confidence and body language, and lack of fear gives him an in that many people do not have. That is, he has a leg up. I think in twenty years, he may have a totally different approach to dog training than he does right now. 

Why do I say that? Because many excellent trainers that I have known started out with many of the same techniques that Cesar currently uses. And they have moved, evolved their training methods to a much more positive approach. Cesar has not done this because what he is doing is working for him. But, as I have said, I think a more positive approach would also work for him. 

Personally, I think that you can get quicker results with his methods, but I think that you can get more lasting results with other methods, and those methods would be less dangerous for people who are not natural dog people. 

That being said, that clip on the other thread, is a lot different from his earlier stuff already. 

I don't understand why if you don't revere Cesar and his methods you hate him.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> he sucks and if you like him i'm going to down grade
> my opinon of you. :silly:


I have a great deal of respect for him. My GSD would have been put to sleep for aggressive dominance if it hadn't been for Cesar's way. I am currently trying to get help from Cesar for my dog and his car chasing. It really hurts me though for your opinion of me to fall-I know you had me on a pedestal.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> Personally, I think that you can get quicker results with his methods, but I think that you can get more lasting results with other methods, and those methods would be less dangerous for people who are not natural dog people.


I agree Sue. CM definitely has a way with dogs, there is no doubt, but so very few people have that ability I think a lot of what he does is only temporary and unrealistic, sometimes just plain unsafe to give people that expectation.

That, and unlike CM I have a much lower tolerance for dogs that bite, repeatedly, unprovoked. I don't have the right level of patience or umbrella policy to deal with that!


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## Bigdogsolo (Nov 6, 2011)

*Think He's helped ....*

... Alot of dog owners and consumers with common issues (and some not so common) to make it easier for them to live harmoniously. I also think he gets results.

TV is just the biggest medium that allows him to bring it to the masses.

JMO....


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> It's a psychological term. If there is a problem like the dog is scared of something you just make him do it repeatedly thinking that eventually he just won't be scared anymore, like when he was dragging the Great Dane across the slippery floor. Or if the dog is resource guarding something he will just keep putting that in front of the dog and correcting the dog over and over. If the dog has problems with other dogs he puts in into a pack of a dozen or more dogs. That sort of thing is flooding. Wikipedia or Google can probably give you the Psych101 definition. Dog trainers do this and sometimes people have it done for their phobias. I'm not sure how well it works or not, I just don't train my dogs that way or treat them like that and wouldn't let CM do it to any of my dogs. I'd rather use NILIF, have the dog DO something and get rewarded for doing the right thing rather than constantly telling him NOT to do something.


Thank you for that.
It seems that sometimes he approaches problems using his normal methods and they don't work. So, he takes a deep breath and tries something else and, if that doesn't work, something else again. And if that doesn't work he takes the dog to his psychology center. He is very good but he is not perfect and he makes up for his lack of 'perfection' with persistence.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I've enjoyed his shows from time to time....
He has success because he uses *2 basic components* needed when dealing with dogs..... **the understanding of basic dog behavour & common sense**


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> Why should someone else's opinion of a trainer hurt you?
> 
> I cannot comprehend that at all. You are not allowing us to have a different opinion or you will be hurt. That is terribly controlling don't you think?


You misunderstood me lol. DoggieDad told ME that if I like Cesar then his opinion of ME would fall. I jokingly replied to him that I have respect for Cesar and that it would hurt me for him (DoggieDad) to think less of me because of that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> Thank you for that.
> It seems that sometimes he approaches problems using his normal methods and they don't work. So, he takes a deep breath and tries something else and, if that doesn't work, something else again. And if that doesn't work he takes the dog to his psychology center. He is very good but he is not perfect and he makes up for his lack of 'perfection' with persistence.


What do you mean by "normal" methods? Like I said, I prefer NILIF, and it works but not overnight and maybe not even in a week. Not real conducive for TV shows. Also, I don't let anyone every handle or train my dogs.

Again, I'm not hating on him, I just don't really agree with any of his methods and wouldn't allow them to be used on my dogs (but, we don't have behavior problems). I agree with his little mantra but again don't find that original, pretty much any half-decent behaviorist will tell you the same thing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> You misunderstood me lol. DoggieDad told ME that if I like Cesar then his opinion of ME would fall. I jokingly replied to him that I have respect for Cesar and that it would hurt me for him (DoggieDad) to think less of me because of that.


Yupp, you're right I did. I then deleted my post because it was stupid. Sorry you read that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Cesars episodes are so edited, people watching think they can 'fix' a dog in a short time frame, and that is not what is really happening. 
I don't hate on him, but understand that his marketing and commercialism has taken his training techniques to *GOD* status for JQP...He's not a training God....
I would rather put my time into watching Michael Ellis videos(though he doesn't address dogs with aggression or fear based issues)
When Onyx was going thru her first fear aggression/reactive stage at 6 or 7 months, Cesar was peaking at the same time. I employed his technique(dominated her to submission when she went after a small child) and I feel it did NO help at all with my relationship with Onyx or her confidence. It set us back big time. She still can't be around young kids, and I think my reaction when she initially did that was a trigger that little kids are bad. The imprinting I did then was huge in her mind. I kick myself for being so ignorant.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I like Cesar Milan, he's helped a lot of people, even ones that just watch his show. His methods are obvious, but the problem was that people weren't doing the obvious things like setting boundaries and exercising their dogs. Maybe he's gimmicky, but it's helped a lot of people with small or common issues who don't know how to fix it and can't afford/find a behaviorist.

I like his recent episodes, he's more balanced now and uses much more positive reinforcement. 

I don't trust Junior though. Daddy was so calm and unreactive, I've seen Junior show bad body language including curling his lips when he was only greeting a very small dog. Caesar catches it right away, but I still don't really trust Junior.



onyx'girl said:


> Cesars episodes are so edited, people watching think they can 'fix' a dog in a short time frame, and that is not what is really happening.


They really aren't that edited. I went to one of his seminars here where local people brought in their dogs. His methods really are that fast.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They may be that fast on tv or in a seminar, but what happens when the owner has to deal with the behavior with Cesar not around? Follow-up episodes would be nice. You can't fix a reactive or fearful dog just like that!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> Yupp, you're right I did. I then deleted my post because it was stupid. Sorry you read that.


It's ok.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> They may be that fast on tv or in a seminar, but what happens when the owner has to deal with the behavior with Cesar not around? Follow-up episodes would be nice. You can't fix a reactive or fearful dog just like that!


You can fix dominant aggression just like that though. My dog never attacked us again after he learned his position in the pack. It only took one alpha roll to establish this between me and him. And he never gave me a bloody bite again-that was two years ago.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

There are quite a few people on this board who have turned around aggressive dogs using methods very different from Cesar's and do not agree with the methods you used for your dog. Do you hate them or hate their methods? Should we not be permitted to critique those methods and/or offer alternatives? 

Thanks to Patricia McConnell I was able to rehab Basu, the 4.5 yo, abused and neglected fear aggressive (to people) gsd I adopted. I did so using NILIF, counter conditioning and positive reinforcement.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Rotfl



germanshepherdlova said:


> i have a great deal of respect for him. My gsd would have been put to sleep for aggressive dominance if it hadn't been for cesar's way. I am currently trying to get help from cesar for my dog and his car chasing.
> 
> >>>>> it really hurts me though for your opinion of me to fall-i know you had me on a pedestal.<<<<<
> View attachment 13159


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BowWowMeow said:


> There are quite a few people on this board who have turned around aggressive dogs using methods very different from Cesar's and do not agree with the methods you used for your dog. Do you hate them or hate their methods? Should we not be permitted to critique those methods and/or offer alternatives?
> 
> Thanks to Patricia McConnell I was able to rehab Basu, the 4.5 yo, abused and neglected fear aggressive (to people) gsd I adopted. I did so using NILIF, counter conditioning and positive reinforcement.


Excellent post.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My problem with Cesar isn't really with Cesar, it's with his TV show. When they show nothing but hammers on TV all day, pretty soon everything starts to look like a nail. Meaning that dogs have a lot of different motivations for what they do, but since Cesar's show came out, all I hear from Joe Sixpack is _dominance._

"Oh, your dog is trying to dominate you." No he's not, he's trying to snuggle with me.

"He's being dominant so I need to roll him on his back." No he's scared to death and if you roll that dog on his back you'll traumatize him even more. 

"Shouldn't you eat something before you feed the dogs so they won't try to dominate you?" I'm. Not. Hungry. 


*GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH* :headbang::headbang::headbang:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think its annoying and somewhat amusing when people claim they are good dog owners "because we watch Cesar".


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I think its annoying and somewhat amusing when people claim they are good dog owners "because we watch Cesar".


At least they do *something.* Far more than the average dog owner. If even a smidgeon of training advice gets thru their noggin, they're likely better off than having none.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There are lots of trainers and everyone has their favorites.

Mine is Michael Ellis.

If I had a vicious dog in my yard and could have anyone I wished go in and get the dog out it would be Cesar Milan.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

chelle said:


> At least they do *something.* Far more than the average dog owner. If even a smidgeon of training advice gets thru their noggin, they're likely better off than having none.


I agree! I just tell them that there's better methods out there, and direct them to their nearest clicker class 
OH, and I also encourage them to do the walking part, because I think it does help dogs to bond.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> There are quite a few people on this board who have turned around aggressive dogs using methods very different from Cesar's and do not agree with the methods you used for your dog. Do you hate them or hate their methods? Should we not be permitted to critique those methods and/or offer alternatives?
> 
> Thanks to Patricia McConnell I was able to rehab Basu, the 4.5 yo, abused and neglected fear aggressive (to people) gsd I adopted. I did so using NILIF, counter conditioning and positive reinforcement.


That is so funny that not just you- but some of you interpreted the definition of "hating on" the Dog Whisperer literally! Hating on someone does not mean that you literally hate the person or their ways!lol Hating on a person is-The slang word / phrase / acronym hate on means... . Online Slang Dictionary ... to be jealous of something or someone and talking about them (negatively) because of it.

That being said, I don't care what methods other people use to train their dogs-I am just sticking up for Millan because I support him-have seen positive results from his training methods, attribute my dog being alive to him. To simplify this-I used his method-it worked for me and my dog-and I don't care if other people don't approve-it worked for us, and that is what is important to me.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

chelle said:


> at least they do *something.* far more than the average dog owner. If even a smidgeon of training advice gets thru their noggin, they're likely better off than having none.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

cesar is entertainment, but he does raise awareness and overall that's a good thing. i don't use his methods (although ironically my dogs pay better attention to me if i do "whisper", lol). daddy was such a beautiful dog and his new boy (junior?), is beautiful too. ancient eyes open to their souls. i enjoy watching cesar.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

katieliz said:


> cesar is entertainment, but he does raise awareness and overall that's a good thing. i don't use his methods (although ironically my dogs pay better attention to me if i do "whisper", lol). daddy was such a beautiful dog and his new boy (junior?), is beautiful too. ancient eyes open to their souls. i enjoy watching cesar.


I loved Daddy. I cried when he died. He was such an awesome dog. Junior is beautiful-I just don't know if he will ever be a heart-stealer like Daddy was.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> My problem with Cesar isn't really with Cesar, it's with his TV show. When they show nothing but hammers on TV all day, pretty soon everything starts to look like a nail. Meaning that dogs have a lot of different motivations for what they do, but since Cesar's show came out, all I hear from Joe Sixpack is _dominance._
> 
> "Oh, your dog is trying to dominate you." No he's not, he's trying to snuggle with me.
> 
> ...


You and me both, babe! 

"My puppy is biting me, does that mean he thinks he's the alpha?" "My puppy won't listen to me, does that mean he's dominant?" NO!!!!!  Everything is not about dominance!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't agree with the fact he will kick a dog. I watched a video of him kicking (oops, sorry - tapping) dogs, and most of the time, it was unnecessary. Him kicking a dog in the abdomen, from what I saw, evoked the very reaction he was trying to correct. Like there was a white dog that he put a blue thing in front of. The dog didn't react in any way until he kicked it. 
Somewhere else, there were 3 GSDs. He kicks the dog AFTER they settle. To me, he has an oversized ego.

It also drives me nuts that every single dog that is acting out is doing so because he wants to overthrow his owners as 'alpha.' Psh.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> At least they do *something.* Far more than the average dog owner. If even a smidgeon of training advice gets thru their noggin, they're likely better off than having none.


Watching a TV show isn't doing anything regarding their dog. Also, most of the 'techniques' Cesar uses shouldn't be used by anyone who don't know what they're doing. The dog owners that watch Cesar should switch to watching It's Me or the Dog if they want to learn how to train their dog. Her methods won't completely screw up a dog. If you do it wrong, it just might take the dog a little longer to learn the behaviors.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't think Cesar trains dogs. He is _not_ a dog trainer.
I have seen episodes where he has visited a friend who trains dogs, but he doesn't actually do any of it himself.
We have taken our dogs to obedience training to heel, sit, down, come, stay etc but I have never seen Cesar use any of those dog training commands. Or try to get them to fetch or speak or rollover or search and rescue or guide dog or anything that I would consider training.
His stated technique is "this is what I expect from you dog". And as he says, a (dog) pack leader doesn't ask the other dogs to sit or lay down or try to train them in any way either.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't really watch him. I look for different opinions and advice from him and other people. He isn't the best dog person and certainly isn't the worst, but he is credible to a degree.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

By reading this thread I kind of wonder how many people who are criticizing him have seen more than just a few of his shows and have seen his recent episodes. I haven't seen him use the alpha roll since the first season, and he's doing a lot with treats now.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think as with any trainer, he has good and bad going for him.

The thing I give him ALOT of credit for is going into situations where HE is the dogs LAST resort, and helps by saving the dogs life.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

warpwr said:


> I don't think Cesar trains dogs. He is _not_ a dog trainer.
> I have seen episodes where he has visited a friend who trains dogs, but he doesn't actually do any of it himself.
> We have taken our dogs to obedience training to heel, sit, down, come, stay etc but I have never seen Cesar use any of those dog training commands. Or try to get them to fetch or speak or rollover or search and rescue or guide dog or anything that I would consider training.
> His stated technique is "this is what I expect from you dog". And as he says, a (dog) pack leader doesn't ask the other dogs to sit or lay down or try to train them in any way either.


I never realized that, but you are right, he really doesn't give commands. 

I used to watch his show all the time - I was an addict of sorts. But I started getting tired of everything being about walks & backpacks. (I even went out and bought a doggie backback for our golden!) Sure, walks are important but they aren't the solution to everything. 

I think the main thing that CM has going for him is his lack of fear. Attitude IS everything when it comes to dogs, I believe.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

warpwr said:


> I don't think Cesar trains dogs. He is _not_ a dog trainer.
> I have seen episodes where he has visited a friend who trains dogs, but he doesn't actually do any of it himself.
> We have taken our dogs to obedience training to heel, sit, down, come, stay etc but I have never seen Cesar use any of those dog training commands. Or try to get them to fetch or speak or rollover or search and rescue or guide dog or anything that I would consider training.
> His stated technique is "this is what I expect from you dog". And as he says, a (dog) pack leader doesn't ask the other dogs to sit or lay down or try to train them in any way either.


He is not a trainer, he is a behaviorist. He alters the behavior of the dog by altering the behavior of the owners. He rehabilitates dogs and trains people.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

while Caesar has educated a lot of dog owners and saved a lot of dogs from being PTS, it is TV, what we don't see are the ones he can't help, but as a whole I would say he has brought dog trainer more into the light, like Rin Tin Tin back in the 20's and 30's and this is something that is needed, pretty much everyone wants a well trained or well behaved dog, myself, I don't care much for his methods, but it does work, 

I do give Ceaser a thumbs up for coming to the U.S, becoming a citizen, learning the language, and showing that the "American Dream" Does work


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> He rehabilitates dogs and trains people.


I have the beginning sequence of his show stuck in my head now, thanks!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Kittilicious said:


> I have the beginning sequence of his show stuck in my head now, thanks!


:crazy:
You're welcome. I would trade that for Bye, bye, Miss American Pie that is stuck in MY head.
:laugh:


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Syaoransbear said:


> By reading this thread I kind of wonder how many people who are criticizing him have seen more than just a few of his shows and have seen his recent episodes. I haven't seen him use the alpha roll since the first season, and he's doing a lot with treats now.


I agree, now he only uses Alpha rolls rarely. it is mostly positive reinforcement. There was this episode about a an owner with a vicious fluffy white dog, she used to shout and "pretend" to be tough. 
His advice was for her to be herself, the dog knows she's pretending to be someone she's not and considers that weak, and to talk to her in her normal sweet whispery voice. 
and it worked, once she started cooing over her and speaking very softly the dog started to respond. 
And that's just one example. I watch all Cesar's episodes, I don't use his old techniques in general cause i mostly never needed them, but i do go by his rules. 
Exercise, discipline then affection.
I only used his method training my first GSD to walk on leash, ie, confident, shoulders back, relaxed leash and never look back, and it worked. And i use it for all the dogs i walk too. Never had a problem.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's kind of like schutzhund and bitework though. That is what people take away from his show. That is what people think about when they hear his name. The OP used an alpha roll because of Cesar. 

In fact, a LOT of people try this at home, even though he says not to. If your dog has a decent personality, solid nerves, and is walking all over his owner, becoming a more assertive and somewhat aggressive leader might not do any lasting damage. But a LOT of GSDs these days are soft, very sensitive dogs, and their fearful behavior is OFTEN misinterpreted as aggressive or dominant behavior. Using his methods on these dogs are likely to escalate the problem. 

I have no statistics but from what I have witnessed, I would say that the truly hard, solid, confident, assertive, take over the leadership position dogs are in the minority, a small minority. And weaker nerved, fear-aggressive dogs are more the norm. For the owners of these dogs, I do NOT think seeing Cesar's show is a good thing or better than nothing. In fact, I think that I have seen dogs made worse by people who are emulating their hero. 

One thing that Cesar said in that vid/u-tube on the other thread after don't try this at home. He said it is different with every dog, and he really doesn't know what he is going to do. True. It really depends on the dog, and even he doesn't really know why he does what his body tells him to do until he does it and it works, and then he can go back through it with his mind and work out what happened. I think he is a natural in that respect. But what he does with dog A will be different than dog B even if the symptoms are the same. 

The big bad aggressive dogs are the most fun to watch. Watch him walk right in the cage with the aggressive GSD. Watch him tame the wild beast. You do not see Cesar deal with submissive urination, that's weenie. We want TEETH, we want growling, snarling, lip curling, hackle raising bad dogs. And that is what he gives us. 

So when a new puppy owner is discussing his dominant 15 week old puppy with me, and what all he is doing to ensure that he is the boss, and that he watches Cesar, I do not get all fuzzy and warm inside, I cringe, and try to suggest a good trainer I know, and puppy classes. Of course who will listen to me when there is Cesar?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

One of the adopters for the puppies had been given the Monks of new Skete books, and also Cesar.
I told her to toss them out and get Karen Pryor's clicker training books. I explained why the other methods are outdated and were based upon skewed information (wolf packs indeed). 
I am glad Cesar has brought awareness that _something_ needs to be done in the way of training, but that's about it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Selzer, your last post is a good one. 

Some friends of ours were telling us about his dad's spaniel mix. That poor dog has had fear aggression from day one. His dad watches Caesar and no amount of discussion will change his mind. My friend says that the dog is a complete mess, even hiding under the bed when his dad comes home. 

Obviously the guys doesn't know sh/t from shineola but Caesar doesn't help him in any way.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

The monks have disavowed the alpha roll technique. I really like their emphasis on incorporating the dog into the family. I tend to take bits and pieces from a variety of trainers and find what works for me and my specific dog. I too am of the opinion that there is too much talk of dominance and alpha in casual dog training. I think that the term becomes useless and doesn't take into account the complexity of the relationship between dog and owner.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I have seen his show, several season's worth, although not any recent ones. I have read all of his books, and own a copy of his training seminar on DVD.

I think his methods that he taught in his seminar are decent, like stressing the importance of exercise and a balance of affection and leadership (having rules and making sure they are enforced consistently).

But his show is much different from his books and his seminars. In his show, he is dealing with real problems that have taken time to develop, NOT an 8 week old puppy. So a future dog owner who is a fan of Milan's show is learning training "techniques" that are wholly inappropriate for a new puppy. That is my biggest issue with CM. Plus I think it gives the owner of a dog with problems an unrealistic view of the time it takes to work through them. It can take months/years to work through a fear response in a weak nerved dog using positive reinforcement techniques. But in CM's show, the situation appears to resolve itself in a one hour episode. So naturally his methods seem superior.

Sure, I can jerk my dog away from another dog when he barks/lunges at it (after first exhausting him with an hour long run). And maybe after a dozen times, Niko learns he better not bark at that particular dog. But who is to say he won't bark at a different dog in a different place? And won't he still have that fear he has to experience even if I don't see an outward reaction of the same magnitude? Even if I manage to use CM's techniques to eliminate the undesirable behavior, I have not addressed the cause of the problem and thus my dog is still suffering, albeit quietly.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> The monks have disavowed the alpha roll technique. I really like their emphasis on incorporating the dog into the family. I tend to take bits and pieces from a variety of trainers and find what works for me and my specific dog. I too am of the opinion that there is too much talk of dominance and alpha in casual dog training. I think that the term becomes useless and doesn't take into account the complexity of the relationship between dog and owner.


The Monks of New Skete? When did this happen?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't hate him. I am not jealous of him. I just understand the reasoned analysis of some of his techniques and have seen plenty of misuse by pet owners who watched his show. Dogs have certainly suffered from this and owner/dog relationships damaged/ There are effective methods that I would prefer and are more easily applied appropriately by the general dog owner.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Samba said:


> I don't hate him. I am not jealous of him. I just understand the reasoned analysis of some of his techniques and have seen plenty of misuse by pet owners who watched his show. Dogs have certainly suffered from this and owner/dog relationships damaged/ There are effective methods that I would prefer and are more easily applied appropriately by the general dog owner.


What methods have damaged owner/dog relationships? The exercise that he insists that each dog receive? The dog being told to wait until the owner enters and exits rooms before him? Making the dog heel? Holding the dog down as a correction? Which one has caused a dog to suffer?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The Monks of New Skete? When did this happen?


10 years ago. 

Second edition, 2002.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> 10 years ago.
> 
> Second edition, 2002.


I watched their DVD about 2 1/2 years ago and it made no mention of this-as a matter of fact it appeared that they supported it. Must have been an old DVD-I borrowed it from the library but wow was it old if this was a decade ago!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't hate him, I just dont like him or his methods or how much talk there is about dominance and submission - it's not how I handle my dogs. I have my own training favorites - Dr. Ian Dunbar and Dr. Patricia McConnell. I get better results and a better relationship with my dogs from positive training so that is what I follow. I do watch CM's show from time to time, but just for entertainment, not to learn anything or follow what he does.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> There are lots of trainers and everyone has their favorites.
> 
> Mine is Michael Ellis.
> 
> If I had a vicious dog in my yard and could have anyone I wished go in and get the dog out it would be Cesar Milan.


The problem is with idolizing those trainers to a point that you are "afraid" to go with anything else. I know a guy who says he's been working his dog with the Michael Ellis method since puppy hood and declined working with Debbie Zappia because to him she's a bogus trainer. 
Honestly, I see his dog a lot of times and you can't tell that he's using the Michael Ellis method. If I hear Michael Ellis method I have expectations, espcially if you train a dog from puppyhood on with it. 

But the CD's itself can't replace a PERSONAL trainer. A TV can't replace a personal trainer... idolizing them to a point where you won't listen to anyone else just because they are brainwashed into believing that their ways are the only right way and nobody elses ways works... well... their loss. 

I'd rather go with the personal training than the DVD's or TV Shows.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't hate him, I just don't care for his methods or his misinterpretations of dog body language. I also don't like that people try to copy him by poking dogs and making "shh" noises and think they're going to get anywhere.

If he gets more people to exercise and train their dogs though, good for him.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> The problem is with idolizing those trainers to a point that you are "afraid" to go with anything else. I know a guy who says he's been working his dog with the Michael Ellis method since puppy hood and declined working with Debbie Zappia because to him she's a bogus trainer.
> Honestly, I see his dog a lot of times and you can't tell that he's using the Michael Ellis method. If I hear Michael Ellis method I have expectations, espcially if you train a dog from puppyhood on with it.
> 
> But the CD's itself can't replace a PERSONAL trainer. A TV can't replace a personal trainer... idolizing them to a point where you won't listen to anyone else just because they are brainwashed into believing that their ways are the only right way and nobody elses ways works... well... their loss.
> ...


I don't idoloze anybody.
The trainer we go to uses Michael Ellis methods and she pays a ton of money to go to his seminars to learn his methods.
I like his methods but he is not the only good trainer or metod in the world.
The person you know may not be doing his method properly or spending enough time. 

I think Cesar has a way with dogs and has absolutely no fear but I don't consider him a trainer. He doesn't teach training methods. He does what he does and I never understand why people don't get what he does.

I've seen a lot of his shows and they are entertaining. I have no intention of trying to do what he does.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't idoloze anybody.
> The trainer we go to uses Michael Ellis methods and she pays a ton of money to go to his seminars to learn his methods.
> I like his methods but he is not the only good trainer or metod in the world.
> The person you know may not be doing his method properly or spending enough time.
> ...


Agreed. :thumbup:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I watched their DVD about 2 1/2 years ago and it made no mention of this-as a matter of fact it appeared that they supported it. Must have been an old DVD-I borrowed it from the library but wow was it old if this was a decade ago!


You should call and see if they still have that edition because it should be destroyed - seriously! If people are thinking that it is current info...it would be like us reading a book on autism from 1975 and taking that info and applying it now. Some of it correct? Sure, but...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

It is great to hear so many opinions. There are many dog training styles and all of them work. I use Cesar's Way for my dog who has dominance aggression and not for my other who doesn't have this behavioral issue. Point being-each person chooses what trainer and training style to go with, and I get annoyed when people choose their preferred training style and then put their nose up at other ways. Or worse yet, imply that another style is "messing up dogs" I will always be a Cesar supporter-I also support NILIF. It is wonderful to have the freedom to make choices-isn't it?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Haven't read the whole thread-just watched a few episodes of Cesear liked watching the show-I think anyone who becomes well known there are always people who won't like their method or just make negetive comments


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Zeus was always afraid of water, he refused to go swimming. One day, I saw an episode of CM - the dog was just like Zeus, will not go in the pool. I followed what he did and Zeus was a crazy water monster from then on. 

If it makes sense, I do follow some of his advise.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Was that the episode with the little boy and the husky?

Great pics




Josie/Zeus said:


> Zeus was always afraid of water, he refused to go swimming. One day, I saw an episode of CM - the dog was just like Zeus, will not go in the pool. I followed what he did and Zeus was a crazy water monster from then on.
> 
> If it makes sense, I do follow some of his advise.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Zeus was always afraid of water, he refused to go swimming. One day, I saw an episode of CM - the dog was just like Zeus, will not go in the pool. I followed what he did and Zeus was a crazy water monster from then on.
> 
> If it makes sense, I do follow some of his advise.


Love the pictures-and glad that that particular training method worked for you.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

I haven't watched CM for quite a while; definitely not since we've had Joey.

I'm taping this Saturday's episode, just to see if there's anything we can relate to, now that we're dog owners.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I don't think it was a husky, it was a black dog - maybe a lab or something, Cesar said something about that breed being water dogs. 

The only thing he did was put a collar on the dog and told him "let's go" and the dog went swimming. I did the very same thing with Zeus, I can't believe it worked. I took him to the lake all the time and he never wanted to have anything to do with the water. 

Afterwards, if Zeus sees one of us in the pool, he jumps right in.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> Watching a TV show isn't doing anything regarding their dog. Also, most of the 'techniques' Cesar uses shouldn't be used by anyone who don't know what they're doing. The dog owners that watch Cesar should switch to watching *It's Me or the Dog* if they want to learn how to train their dog. Her methods won't completely screw up a dog. If you do it wrong, it just might take the dog a little longer to learn the behaviors.


I HATE that show - the woman is unbearable, and I am certain she "thinks" she is using marker training...but she's not.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

If you compare recent seasons to the initial season or two, you will see that Ceasar's way of training has changed quite a bit. He used to be very heavy-handed with dogs and even alpha roll them. I am glad he has gotten away from that and moved toward better methods.

However, whatever respect I may have had for Caesar went right out of the window when he posted a photo of himself and his dog Junior on his blog, saying Junior "earned his Service Dog certification". He's holding up a certificate from the United States Service Dog Registry, which is one of those fake registries. 

The blog post has since been taken off, but there's a cached version of it (with some commentary) on this blog Cesar’s Way Wrong About Service Dogs: Part 3 – The Law | Al Brittain If you click on the photo of Caesar with Junior in that post, it shows the original post made to Caesar's blog, which reads like it's encouraging people (without disabilities) to get their dogs "certified" as Service Dogs.
http://www.albrittain.com/service-dogs/cesars-way-wrong-about-service-dogs-part-3-the-law/


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

N Smith said:


> I HATE that show - the woman is unbearable, and I am certain she "thinks" she is using marker training...but she's not.


I agree with you on this one-that lady annoys me to death.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I agree with you on this one-that lady annoys me to death.



Can't tolerate listening to her.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I agree with you on this one-that lady annoys me to death.


As a new dog owner 12 years ago this coming weekend I needed her . Victoria was basic beyond basic. I hate no one, ok the Steelers but only as a team not individuals . I watch Cesar, I love Dogtown and the website for best Friends which has a section for training. I learn from everybody but if the time comes that my two are gone I want to work w/ a trainer who is probably more like Shari at best Friends or Victoria. I respect Cesar Im just not sure I got what's needed to do some of his stuff. My problem not his. Im a counselor I work well w/ some kids ,we click. Other kids need someone different,meeting individual needs. I did an Alpha Roll w/ Daisy didnt know it at the time. She growled at me when i tried to take a bone away from her. I was thinking I wouldnt let my adolescent raise a hand im not letting you growl. She never did it again. i now know Daisy is kind of a hard dog and Lucky is soft would never do a roll w/ him. I learned the hard / soft stuff here.I also read the Monks stuff back in the 2002,liked it but Im kind of needed basic beyond basic. Most dogs I grew up around on my dads side were tied up.I needed Remedial Victoria.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> As a new dog owner 12 years ago this coming weekend I needed her . Victoria was basic beyond basic. I hate no one, ok the Steelers but only as a team not individuals . I watch Cesar, I love Dogtown and the website for best Friends which has a section for training. I learn from everybody but if the time comes that my two are gone I want to work w/ a trainer who is probably more like Shari at best Friends or Victoria. I respect Cesar Im just not sure I got what's needed to do some of his stuff. My problem not his. Im a counselor I work well w/ some kids ,we click. Other kids need someone different,meeting individual needs. I did an Alpha Roll w/ Daisy didnt know it at the time. She growled at me when i tried to take a bone away from her. I was thinking I wouldnt let my adolescent raise a hand im not letting you growl. She never did it again. i now know Daisy is kind of a hard dog and Lucky is soft would never do a roll w/ him. I learned the hard / soft stuff here.I also read the Monks stuff back in the 2002,liked it but Im kind of need basic beyond basic. Most dogs I grew up around on my dads side were tied up.I needed Remedial Victoria.


That is a very good point that you bring up-my GSD has been alpha rolled and it helps his behavior-very much so. I haven't needed to correct him that way in a long time though. Now my lab is a soft dog and I would never dream of alpha rolling him-it's not necessary and simply telling him no or frowning at him is enough of a correction for him. Different dogs-different approaches to training. What works for one may not work or even be necessary for the next.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Got this link on my Facebook-Cesar's letter.Thought I'd share.

How to improve your relationship with your dog!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If I can successfully alpha roll a dog I pretty much know that dog didn't need it anyway!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Samba said:


> If I can successfully alpha roll a dog I pretty much know that dog didn't need it anyway!


A little more info might help me here. You disagree w/ it / Im guessing ?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The Alpha roll thing is way overplayed by those who don't like Cesar.

I've seen many seasons worth of shows and saw an alpha roll once. I may have missed other times but have watched enough to know that it is very infrequent.

I figure if people don't like him or what he does that's fine but to keep bringing up something that is rarely used even by him serves no purpose.

I don't agree with all the pack, dominance, need to eat first and other things but he has his place just as others do.

It's kind of like going to the movies or out to eat. Everybody doesn't like the same things.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> The Alpha roll thing is way overplayed by those who don't like Cesar.
> 
> I've seen many seasons worth of shows and saw an alpha roll once. I may have missed other times but have watched enough to know that it is very infrequent.
> 
> ...


gotta agree.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think the OP brings up the alpha roll and actually doing it - it hasn't really been the main topic - blehmannwa mentioned that the Monks had stopped recommending it.

The point (and Samba can correct me  ) that I think Samba was making is that if you have a dog that will submit to an alpha roll, they are a dog that would respond to other methods.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

The alpha roll works-how can someone say it doesn't that doesn't even think they could manage to do one?

We had a trainer help us the first time and my dog was under 1 year old-he is dominant so the first time he fought and I was bit-and bleeding. But it worked and he stopped attacking me after this. People can nay-say all they want but I know it worked for my dog and he'd have been put down by now for dominant aggression if it wasn't for this. That is my story-other people can share theirs but I know what worked for me and my dog. It was my choice-and the type of trainer that I chose-and I don't regret it, not for a second. Further more I am not ashamed of it-even though the majority of the people on this forum frown upon it-that makes no difference to me.


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Cesar is a bully and a quack, and professional dog trainers are having to clean up his mess all over America.



> ...he simply grabs the dog, puts it into the situation where it is known to have problems, and then corrects it for failure. In most cases, good training is just the opposite of this. You find situations in which the dog can succeed, and then you gradually increase the difficulty of the situation while rewarding the dog for success at each step. Good training is often almost invisible.


What Do I think about the Dog Whisperer? Talented Animals Blog

But that doesn't make for good television, does it? This does though:





I will give him credit, he does seem to be softening over the years and less quick to immediately make it a physical confrontation with the dog. I will always give respect to someone who can grow and change. But it's shallow change; he has refined his methods but there's nothing really new.

Watch an episode with the sound off. Watch the dog. The dogs are not "calm submissive." They are shut down because a mad man is throwing them under the bus.

His puppy book isn't bad, if you filter out the ~woo~. Best crate training/separation anxiety prevention protocol I've seen.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks for that GREAT article Wheelhaus, and welcome to the board!

I think he makes some excellent points. I especially like this:



> 3. Micromanaging: Millan often keeps the dogs on such a short leash (literally and figuratively) that they do not learn accountability. They do not learn to make the right choices and respect the rules, they simply learn to give up and shut down. They learn to do and try nothing because they will get attacked if they move. *Good training allows dogs to feel empowered and instructed; to clearly understand what behaviors are not allowed, and be responsible for making the right choices.*


And this: 



> 5. Unimaginative: *Millan sometimes uses different tools, but his basic range of techniques is very narrow. So when he happens to get a dog that needs those techniques he will be very effective, when he happens to get a dog that needs something different he will be very destructive. I would have the same problem if he were purely positive and gave treats for everything—one technique does not work across the board. *Good trainers are fabulous problem solvers. They come up with brilliant ways to induce behaviors, change attitudes, and mold responses. They have a remarkable range of techniques that they use to work with different dogs. They can be very positive when needed, very harsh when needed, supportive, quiet, loud, calm, exuberant, etc.


And this:



> 9. Indifference to canine attitude: Millan sacrifices attitude for quick superficial results, and I believe that is very counterproductive. Watch any of the dogs he works, and you will rarely see truly happy dogs, confident dogs, secure, trusting dogs. *Good trainers focus on attitude and character—training rules and specific behaviors is essentially trivial. Once you have taught a dog how to learn, how to take cues, how to relax, it is easy to teach specific behaviors.*


And this - basically using your bigger brain to solve problems rather than relying on brawn: 



> If your primary method of control is intimidation, the animals you train learn that intimidation and power are tools to get what you want. Sooner or later these animals may well decide to try to get what they want using intimidation. This is what happens eventually to most animal bullies in the wild, and is extremely dangerous. So I elect to use cooperation and leadership so that they learn that I am a powerful and benevolent leader who will help them get what they want in the world. *I outsmart them by making sure that their success coincides with my desires until they reflexively and habitually do what I ask. I am smarter, but not stronger or faster, so it makes sense to use my intellectual advantage rather than bluffing about a physical advantage.*


And I LOVE his response to some of the comments below the article (scroll down to #6):



> Several people have suggested that other trainers do not tackle equally challenging dogs and so do not understand the challenges Cesar faces. And it is easy to see how one would believe this: *you see other trainers working with happy, focused, attentive eager dogs that are not snarling, fighting, biting, and dragging—just cooperatively and enthusiastically performing behavior after behavior with a wagging tail and bright eyes. But what some people seem not to understand is that good training creates those attributes even in difficult dogs, and makes it look easy.* Pretty much all trainers get similar mixes of types of dogs—that other trainers’ dogs appear to be so much more agreeable and cooperative is precisely the point—that is what you get when you build a strong relationship and develop their desire to play the game.


And:


> I look around at many excellent trainers I know and the dogs they have regularly tackled: crazy heelers that were on the verge of exploding at every moment, Malinois over-the- top driven, wolfdogs that were terrified of everything, inveterate chewers and diggers, huge powerful dogs that rule their homes with tooth and claw, neurotic dogs that want nothing to do with linoleum or stairs, dogs born deaf and brain damaged and insane, and *I chuckle at the idea that they shy away from cases Cesar would tackle… But if you saw most of those dogs a few months later, you would never know, and would assume that they were always little angels, and not at all the sort of challenging cases Cesar tackles…*


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

IDK-his dog Junior seems like a happy fellow. I get pictures of him on Facebook all the time as he goes about from event to event with Cesar. He doesn't look intimidated in the least by Cesar either.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Sorry, I'm not a fan. Not anymore at least. I've seen much better ways to deal with dog issues. The video above is a perfect example. This dog is afraid of going up the stairs for whatever reason (sound was off when watching) so he runs him so the dog is too tired to fight back and then drags him up the stairs. If anyone else did that they would be considered abusive and berated by everyone on this forum. Because it's CM well he must know what he's doing. 

Let me now take everything my dog is afraid of, tire him out till near exhaustion, then drag him and force him into this uncomfortable situation. Does that make sense? I don't think so. 

I think he looks at everything as dominance where really a dog is a complex being with feelings and emotions. It'll be like taking a person suffering from social anxiety and dragging him by force into a crowded room and then "touching" when he starts to panic and tries to get out of the situation.

I do agree that he has a natural way with dogs, I just think that average joe will try to take his dog and do the same thing and ruin any sort of the trust the dog has in him.

What CM does with his own dogs is a different story, because they have a bond and trust and because he nipped any sort of bad behavior in the bud. For him to come and basically beat up on a strange dog to me is unacceptable and unnecessary. You can force fear out of a dog. I'm only talking about one case where he deals with fearful dogs because that's the one point I need but there are others.

Also, because the dogs do not understand what he wants from them most of the time when they turn into what he calls "calm submissive" I would refer to as either complete shut-down and avoidance or learned helplessness... both of these can be googled.

Learned Helplessness
In the above experiment dogs were shocked randomly without the means to escape. Eventually the dog stopped trying to avoid the shock and simply laid down and accepted it. So sad but makes a valid statement. These dogs go into learned helplessness and complete shut-down / avoidance on multiple episodes...


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> And this - basically using your bigger brain to solve problems rather than relying on brawn:


This. Just... this. You have the great big primate brain, the opposable thumbs, and the very fragile skin holding your internal organs in place. The dog has a head full of very large razor blades. 

And you want to get in a fight with that?

The dog is faster than you, quicker than your, stronger than you, and he knows it. You cannot get respect through force, it must come from mutual trust.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Wheelhaus said:


> This. Just... this. You have the great big primate brain, the opposable thumbs, and the very fragile skin holding your internal organs in place. The dog has a head full of very large razor blades.
> 
> And you want to get in a fight with that?
> 
> The dog is faster than you, quicker than your, stronger than you, and he knows it. You cannot get respect through force, it must come from mutual trust.


The problem comes when a TV shows a man using tools (strictly human capability, except maybe the octopus in one experiment - below), in this case a leash, to "demonstrate" how he can overpower a dog and gain his respect that way. Complete BS. 

Bottom line is this, if this was anyone other than CM 70% of these owners would have sent him out the door flying. I know I would have...

for those who are interested, octopus using tools


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wheelhaus said:


> You have the great big primate brain, the opposable thumbs, and the very fragile skin holding your internal organs in place. The dog has a head full of very large razor blades.
> 
> And you want to get in a fight with that?
> 
> The dog is faster than you, quicker than your, stronger than you, and he knows it. You cannot get respect through force, it must come from mutual trust.


Exactly! :rofl:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I've always thought he was a good handler, but not necessarily a great trainer. Someone sent me an article a ways back that did follow ups with some of his TV show "successes" and found that most went back to their behavioral issues pretty quickly. I do think that the owners are at the root of the issue, but regardless, if the problem persists...

Here's a portion of that article, I can't find the whole thing in my old emails for some reason.

_Cotton -- our beloved, 6-year-old American Eskimo -- is still a biter. I suppose he will always be a biter. And, as my lawyer husband keeps reminding me, "a lawsuit waiting to happen." Not that his bites are so powerful: I once had a cat who left comparable fang marks. But the cat didn't lunge at visitors.

How had the 35-pound, bouncing ball of fluff that is our family pet become a public menace? It sure wasn't through apathy on my part. I had tried everything. Puppy classes and basic-training at the neighborhood PetSmart. A library of self-help books and videos. Even a pricey dog-aggression expert whose Israeli accent made me want to stand at attention. He ordered counter-conditioning and desensitization drills, supplemented by a low-protein diet and a doggie herbal remedy akin to St. John's Wort.

Nothing worked.

I tried clicker training, high-pitched electronic tones, pepper spray, throwing soda cans filled with rocks. I considered an electric shock collar but worried that in the hands of an amateur (that would be me, the aforementioned idiot) it might do more harm than good.

Finally, I appealed to the fabled Dog Whisperer.

*Cesar's efforts were a brilliant success -- until he left our house. For one day, Cotton was the dog I'd always dreamed he could be. Calm and submissive, deferring to the pack leader. Unfortunately, the pack leader was Cesar.*

Reluctantly, I looked into shipping Cotton to a dog rescue -- but didn't find one that would take a dog with a history of biting. No chance of ever placing him with a new owner, they explained. Unacceptable liability. Months later, I had a follow-up visit with Cesar at his Dog Psychology Center in South L.A. Surrounded by his spectacularly submissive pack, he accepted my lack of leadership skill and suggested I try a full-time muzzle. I had already tried that and concluded the restraint has yet to be invented that Cotton couldn't wriggle out of.

I considered defanging him, but couldn't find a vet in the area who would do it. Turns out the practice is both unsafe and impractical. To extract a dog's mighty canines would likely lead to a fractured jaw. Even if it didn't, with the canines out of the way, the pointy incisors would be primed to fill the gap.

The only other option seemed to be a lethal injection.

Procrastinating about that difficult decision, I told myself I could avoid future incidents through eternal vigilance. Cotton is protective and territorial: He reserves his animosity for strangers (especially men) who venture up our long, steep driveway. Living on an acre in rustic Rolling Hills Estates, fronted by a country road without sidewalks, with Cotton hemmed in by an invisible fence and crated in the garage whenever company is expected, we should have been able to keep trouble at bay. But trouble kept showing up unexpectedly. There was the time the sheriff's deputy drove up to alert us to a nearby brush fire: For his thoughtfulness, he received torn pants and teeth marks in his shin. Or the time a furniture delivery guy arrived early: He escaped Cotton's toothy embrace only by leaping on the hood of his van. Heck, Cotton even slipped his leash and bit the Times photographer who came to take his picture for this article._


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

bocron said:


> I've always thought he was a good handler, but not necessarily a great trainer. Someone sent me an article a ways back that did follow ups with some of his TV show "successes" and found that most went back to their behavioral issues pretty quickly. I do think that the owners are at the root of the issue, but regardless, if the problem persists...
> 
> Here's a portion of that article, I can't find the whole thing in my old emails for some reason.
> 
> ...


As I said before I don't agree with all things Cesar. 

I would be curious though how the Cesar haters would have handled this dog. How long would it take? How much time is involved for the owner? How much would it cost?
After all that would the owner be able to follow up with whatever (not Cesar) training was done?. Would the dog revert anyway? What if it's genetics and no one can fix it to a safe level?
Even Cesar says some simply can not be fixed as did the horse whisperer about some horses.

I look at things from the view of the average working family. A lot of people simply can not afford to try lengthly and expensive training for an already out of control dog.

We are not talking puppy training here. The dogs on his show already have problems and some are severe.

Most of the dogs on the show would not fit in classes so that means a private trainer. Where i live that is anywhere from sixty to over a hundred dollars an hour. Some of those dogs would take a lot of sessions.

The alternative is PTS. Would that be acceptable to those who don't approve of his methods?

Just to add if the owners don't change then most dogs will revert no matter whose method is used.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My point is that the behavior in many cases has not been "retrained" just addressed in the presence of the person who is a good handler. Retraining the behavior and re-teaching the owners is always the hardest part. My husband and I get a plethora of dogs in here that we know could live happily ever after as one of our dogs, but can usually tell in a session or 2 if the owner is actually doing any work at home or if the owner has any interest in learning something and seeing their part in the bigger picture. Many seem to think like the dog is a computer and needs to be re-programmed (trained) but don't get that their own retraining is the bigger issue. 
And I totally agree that not all can be fixed, we have had a few through here that in a million years I wouldn't want to live with even after extensive work.
I'm not a Cesar hater(never met the man and have only watched a handful of shows), if you had to classify me (which I don't really like being put into a box) I'd be a lazy, whiney owner hater .


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> The alternative is PTS. Would that be acceptable to those who don't approve of his methods?
> 
> Just to add if the owners don't change then most dogs will revert no matter whose method is used.


Yes, *when his methods don't work.* If you have a dog that is a lawsuit waiting to happen, and nothing you have done made any improvement, it is not ethical to foist the dog on a rescue, shelter, or unsuspecting new owner. Man up and be with the dog when he is put down. You owe it to him.

All training is lengthy. There are no quick fixes in dog training.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't really care for his methods, but I wish I could find the episode I watched where he did an impression of a German Shepherd talking. It was spot on and hilarious!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> As I said before I don't agree with all things Cesar.
> 
> I would be curious though how the Cesar haters would have handled this dog. How long would it take? How much time is involved for the owner? How much would it cost?
> After all that would the owner be able to follow up with whatever (not Cesar) training was done?. Would the dog revert anyway? What if it's genetics and no one can fix it to a safe level?
> ...


The average working family should have done their research, and done what they can to control the dog and raise a well socialized at least safe dog. Like you said, it's the owner's fault for having an out of control dog am I not correct? I remember a whole thread about this being the owner's fault and to stop making excuses. So lets not make excuses for "the average american family".

Sorry, but if I can work full time, do graduate school full time, exercise regularly and still have time to train my dog and find a trainer that I can afford I refuse to give in the whole "average working family". You'd prefer someone come in and bully the dog into submission and avoidance to produce a "well beahved" dog?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

and sorry if I seem rude I really do apologize. I just hate when people feel its ok to make excuses one day but then say you shouldn't make excuses another day. 

Plus, I'm not talking about the way he handles out of control dogs, I'm talking about the way he handles dogs with fear issues.

For an example of what I'd like to see happen, how about Victoria from "It's me or the dog"? Good to the dogs, tough on the owners...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> The average working family should have done their research, and done what they can to control the dog and raise a well socialized at least safe dog. Like you said, it's the owner's fault for having an out of control dog am I not correct? I remember a whole thread about this being the owner's fault and to stop making excuses. So lets not make excuses for "the average american family".
> 
> Sorry, but *if I can work full time, do graduate school full time, exercise regularly and still have time to train my dog and find a trainer that I can afford I refuse to give in the whole "average working family".* You'd prefer someone come in and bully the dog into submission and avoidance to produce a "well beahved" dog?


Wow-if only I could be half as perfect as you describe yourself to be!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Wow-if only I could be half as perfect as you describe yourself to be!


I knew someone would cling onto that one sentence. 

All I'm saying is, if you got a dog it is your responsibility to make sure he is well behaved. If he has issues that need addressing, it's your responsibility to address them. If you have a kid and he gets into fights at school, misbehaves, and just a menace to be around would anyone agree when you say "well you know we just dont have the time and money to work on improving his issues and make him a better individual". Also, would someone allow a stranger to come in and borderline beat your kid into behaving well? I doubt it...

Fixing a dog's problem is not something that can be done with force and intimidation and that is what I mostly see the CM show advocating. What techniques does he use? "touch" (aka push or kick), I seen him hang dogs, I seen him pull that poor dog up the stairs to force him up there, I seen him do all these things that make him look good when the dog finally shuts down but the dog will revert to his old ways as soon as CM leaves... oh yea, and the lovely alpha roll, can you deny you seen any of these techniques used in the show?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> The average working family should have done their research, and done what they can to control the dog and raise a well socialized at least safe dog. Like you said, it's the owner's fault for having an out of control dog am I not correct? I remember a whole thread about this being the owner's fault and to stop making excuses. So lets not make excuses for "the average american family".
> 
> Sorry, but if I can work full time, do graduate school full time, exercise regularly and still have time to train my dog and find a trainer that I can afford I refuse to give in the whole "average working family". You'd prefer someone come in and bully the dog into submission and avoidance to produce a "well beahved" dog?


I guess if everyone was like you we wouldn't need trainers of any kind.

Should we require a means test for potential dog owners?

I'm not making excuses. It's just reality. Anyone can go to a pet store or buy a pup, or dog or off Craigs list or any number of other places.
that doesn't mean they know anything, they just want a pet.

I was one of them many years ago. I guess a lot of us just weren't as enlightened as you.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess if everyone was like you we wouldn't need trainers of any kind.
> 
> Should we require a means test for potential dog owners?
> 
> ...


really? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...15-alternative-view-dog-aggression-bites.html

It's ok for the average american family to not put the time, money, and effort to training their "potentially dangerous" dog in this instance but not in the instances you brought up in the previous thread?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> really? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...15-alternative-view-dog-aggression-bites.html
> 
> It's ok for the average american family to not put the time, money, and effort to training their "potentially dangerous" dog in this instance but not in the instances you brought up in the previous thread?


I basically said if you have a dog that can bite and or does you need to be responsible and take care of it. Otherwise you are liable. Taking care of it,could be Cesar, some other type of training or PTS.

I think that is different than trying to get the entire pet population to raise and train etc... the way you or I think it should be done.

I really don't think the threads are the same or a good comparison.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I knew someone would cling onto that one sentence.
> 
> All I'm saying is, if you got a dog it is your responsibility to make sure he is well behaved. If he has issues that need addressing, it's your responsibility to address them. If you have a kid and he gets into fights at school, misbehaves, and just a menace to be around would anyone agree when you say "well you know we just dont have the time and money to work on improving his issues and make him a better individual". Also, would someone allow a stranger to come in and borderline beat your kid into behaving well? I doubt it...
> 
> Fixing a dog's problem is not something that can be done with force and intimidation and that is what I mostly see the CM show advocating. What techniques does he use? "touch" (aka push or kick), I seen him hang dogs, I seen him pull that poor dog up the stairs to force him up there, I seen him do all these things that make him look good when the dog finally shuts down but the dog will revert to his old ways as soon as CM leaves... oh yea, and the lovely alpha roll, can you deny you seen any of these techniques used in the show?


I think it is pretty funny the way some people think that making the dog face his fear is abusive. When I got my lab (he was a rescue dog) and terrified of the stairs. I simply made him go up and down the stairs-and guess what? That same day he was running up and down the stairs with no fear at all. An immediate cure-and good riddance to his fear! And did his trust for me suffer? Not at all-that boy loves me to death and he is an awesome dog. Nothing wrong with the Alpha roll either if you are using it with a dog who is dominant and aggressive. The alpha roll is the reason why my dog wasn't put to sleep already. After the Alpha Roll-he stopped attacking us. And that is after NILIF had already been tried for months and wasn't helping.

Use whatever training method you like for your dogs-I believe in Cesar because it has worked for my dogs-and my dogs aren't fearful of me-and I have a strong bond with them. That is why when I read the comments about dogs relationships with their owners being ruined and short term fixes I find them comical. My dogs fixes were long term-permanent and our relationship hasn't suffered from it at all-as a matter of fact it is much better now that my dog no longer tries to bite me.

*One more detail for you-I had a trainer assist me in training my GSD-one who specialized in dogs with aggression issues. But I was the one who had to have the correct state of mind and actually go through the training with him, therefore the presence of the trainer or the absence of him doesn't make a difference because training has to be done not only just with the trainer but also when one is at home and its just you and your dog.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> For an example of what I'd like to see happen, how about Victoria from "It's me or the dog"? Good to the dogs, tough on the owners...


She's really annoying. I'm not 100% pro or con CM, but I prefer him to her.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have a strong bond with my dogs. They are all great companions and many are competitors. No need for Cesar to obtain any of this. It is not that I don't like him as a person, I just don't have much need for his methods. Unfortunately, what makes for good TV does not necessarily translate well in homes in every instance.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How many of you read the article that Wheelhaus linked to?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The alpha roll works-how can someone say it doesn't that doesn't even think they could manage to do one?
> 
> We had a trainer help us the first time and my dog was under 1 year old-he is dominant so the first time he fought and I was bit-and bleeding. But it worked and he stopped attacking me after this. People can nay-say all they want but I know it worked for my dog and he'd have been put down by now for dominant aggression if it wasn't for this. That is my story-other people can share theirs but I know what worked for me and my dog. It was my choice-and the type of trainer that I chose-and I don't regret it, not for a second. Further more I am not ashamed of it-even though the majority of the people on this forum frown upon it-that makes no difference to me.


 
I agree wholehartedly about the Alpha Roll working with some cases(in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing!)'.

I have a bnow 4yo male GSD with an extremely dominant pushy self confident attitude. developed a severe case of DA towards some other aggressive male dogs and about a year ago i took him to a pro trainer (does a lot of Sch and K9 training. My guy especially was DA toward anothe slightly older GSD male in our local group - any time they got within 100' the action started between them.

Took them both to this trainer (muzzled!) and we started walking - very long session shortened. First time my went over to the other dog (who we found out later was scared to death of my guy - didn't realize that before which is why he would always give him the evil stare which naturally would set my boy off!), he trys to jump him! Trainer grabs him, downs him and does a full body lay on him and starew at him till he looked away ("I give up!"). Then praised him and let him up and continued the walk - my guy does it again - this time I do same thing - let him up and continue - no further incidents and i actually have a picture of the two laying quietly side by side with no reaction. Now we can have them in pretty close proximity with very little and usually no reaction.

BTW,don't try this at home folks if you don't know what you are doing (esp. with an unmuzzled dog!). My guy let out a GROWL LIKE IHAD NEVER HEARD FROM HIM WHEN THE TRAINER DID THE FIRST ONE AND TRIED MIGHTLY FOR A FEW MINUTEDS TO BITE HIS FACE OFF! And this is a guy who he is always before and still is very friendly with. He did not growl at me at all, BTW, when I did it.

It does work! (Sometimes!) Some dogs really do respect you more when they find out who is really in charge! Of course some dogs would also be crushed if their owner or trainer did this to them - different approachs for different dogs and different problems.

BTW, my associates (and instructors) in my local obedience club (mostly PO approach!) do not know of this session -- BUT they did comment about how much better behaved my pooch was after it!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> How many of you read the article that Wheelhaus linked to?


 I read it but it doesn't mean anymore than someone on here that gives an opinion.
People generally look for information to support what they already believe. 

The "F word" thread is a perfect example

People who don't like Cesar or his methods will never care for him and will dismiss any positive results.

I have never seen him personally but have seen Cheri Lucas who learned from him. She has a smaller pack of rehabilitated dogs and I don't see any of the supposed scared, intimadated dogs that others supposedly see from her/his methods. I see her walk a pack of formerly messed up dogs 10 to 15 at one time with no problems. To be honest the dogs appear to be enjoying the walk more than a lot of ordinary dogs I've seen.

I don't agree with all his theories but I just believe there is a lot of misinformation and downright lies about the guy.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wheelhaus said:


> Cesar is a bully and a quack, and professional dog trainers are having to clean up his mess all over America.
> ..............
> 
> I will give him credit, he does seem to be softening over the years and less quick to immediately make it a physical confrontation with the dog. I will always give respect to someone who can grow and change. But it's shallow change; he has refined his methods but there's nothing really new.
> ...


*My guess is that you must be a pro trainer who has also trained hundreds of very human and dog aggressive dogs so that they can exist in society, right?*

*Or maybe at least read a book about the subject or some Internet reports!*


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I read the blog that he posted a link to. I was not very impressed with the writers OPINION. First of all, I have never seen Cesar choke any dog until they passed out. My favorite part of this blog was this-

"There is no single right answer about how to train animals. We all have opinions, and most of us are certain we know the best way and everyone else is wrong! Most trainers are very good in some areas and less good in other areas. And we all have different goals–one trainer may be much better at helping you achieve a particular objective while another trainer may be much better at something else.I do not know Millan, and can only comment on what I have observed on television. People are entitled to like Millan’s methods–many people do! And it would be hard to fault his business and marketing savvy… I am not judging anyone’s opinion, merely sharing mine…"

The reason why this is my favorite part is because this is the only factual statement that was made. The writer does not really know what Cesar does or how much time he actually spends with each animal because TV shows (such as the one the writer is basing their analysis on) are edited and have large chunks cut out of them for the sake of finishing within the allotted airtime. Then the writer says that this is merely their own OPINION. They admit that there is no single right answer on how to train animals and that everybody thinks their way is the right way. 

For instance NILIF works for many people-I personally don't like it much. I read a book about this method and it stated that if your dog would not comply with your order such as sit for his dinner then he doesn't get his dinner. The next meal you repeat and if he still doesn't comply then no meal again-until the dog is starving to death and finally complies-hopefully. I personally think that is cruel to deny your dog food-but that is just my opinion. See, we all have our opinions-it doesn't make one training method right or wrong.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Not long ago there was a thread about who would win the battle of better trainer Cesar,Victoria and there might have been one other one. There have been alot times over the years I thought Caser would be right for Daisy but I also know that he would tell me exercise,exercise,exercise.He tells owners things that are for the dogs good. I remember this really scared dog,i know it was a sporting breed. Cesar worked w/ the owner and there was some enviroment modification and the usual more confrontational stuff but he got this dog out running. This dog half way through the run was cruising and had become pretty relaxed. I think he has some good points. The other thing is while I have never physically corrected Lucky,I have and Im not proud to say this dragged daisy to the car after trying to get to another dog,wrestled her to the ground b/c she was chewing up expensive jewelry or a dental piece. 

My second point is that what Codmaster wrote as a Alpha roll could only be done by someone who knew what they were doing. What I did would be more like holding a kid who is temper tantrumming. I think that GermanShepherd Lova and Codmaster did the real thing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> For instance NILIF works for many people-I personally don't like it much. I read a book about this method and it stated that if your dog would not comply with your order such as sit for his dinner then he doesn't get his dinner. The next meal you repeat and if he still doesn't comply then no meal again-until the dog is starving to death and finally complies-hopefully. I personally think that is cruel to deny your dog food-but that is just my opinion.


Wow, you have _totally_ misunderstood NILIF! Of course it's cruel to deny your dog food, and I personally DON'T think that's just your opinion. But I've been using NILIF with my dogs from the time they come home as puppies for over 10 years - Cassidy, Dena, Keefer, and Halo. Not one of them has EVER missed a single meal because they wouldn't sit. Not one! Nobody is starving to death! 

Maybe you should read up on it some more before you comment, so you know what it's really all about.  I think if you had actually tried it you would have realized that _at most_, it might take a few minutes for the dog to figure out that a sit earned a meal. Even Halo at 14 weeks old was sitting until released for her meals. 

And since the leader controls the resources it's a great way to establish leadership, by making your dog work for what they value. It's a perfect example of using your brain to solicit compliance rather than your brawn. The more your dog practices deference behaviors, the more deferent they become. A deferent dog is an obedient, compliant dog.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have never heard of anyone starving their dog to death by implementing NILIF. I would be very interested in finding out about an occurrence. I have experienced in real life the unwanted effects of someone applying dominance theory from a popular TV series.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This little article explains NILIF perfectly:
Nothing in Life is Free


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I did read a book about dealing with dominant dogs and that is how it described NILIF for a dog who was extremely stubborn. It said to give the order once and if they didn't comply that the meal was not to be given. I don't remember the name of the book but I can see if I can go back to the library and find it.

*I was exaggerating about the dog starving to death, the book actually said that the dog WOULD obey before he'd allow himself to starve so it said most dogs would not go longer than a day without eating before they would comply. The book was not speaking about a "soft" dog who would obey because you wanted him to it was referring to training a dominant dog who was stubborn.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wow, you have _totally_ misunderstood NILIF! Of course it's cruel to deny your dog food, and I personally DON'T think that's just your opinion. But I've been using NILIF with my dogs from the time they come home as puppies for over 10 years - Cassidy, Dena, Keefer, and Halo. Not one of them has EVER missed a single meal because they wouldn't sit. Not one! Nobody is starving to death!
> 
> Maybe you should read up on it some more before you comment, so you know what it's really all about.  I think if you had actually tried it you would have realized that _at most_, it might take a few minutes for the dog to figure out that a sit earned a meal. Even Halo at 14 weeks old was sitting until released for her meals.
> 
> And since the leader controls the resources it's a great way to establish leadership, by making your dog work for what they value. It's a perfect example of using your brain to solicit compliance rather than your brawn. The more your dog practices deference behaviors, the more deferent they become. A deferent dog is an obedient, compliant dog.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: That's how you become a "pack leader" by gently showing the dog that all good things come from you and controlling the environment in such a way that the dog will offer you the behavior you want


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I did read a book about dealing with dominant dogs and that is how it described NILIF for a dog who was extremely stubborn. It said to give the order once and if they didn't comply that the meal was not to be given. I don't remember the name of the book but I can see if I can go back to the library and find it.
> 
> *I was exaggerating about the dog starving to death, the book actually said that the dog WOULD obey before he'd allow himself to starve so it said most dogs would not go longer than a day without eating before they would comply. The book was not speaking about a "soft" dog who would obey because you wanted him to it was referring to training a dominant dog who was stubborn.


Was it written by that guy Ed Frawley from Leerburg by any chance? If so he DOES NOT practice NILIF 

I never had to deny my dog a meal because he wouldn't sit or something... it just doesn't end up working that way


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: That's how you become a "pack leader" by *gently showing the dog that all good things come from you and controlling the environment in such a way that the dog will offer you the behavior you want[/QUOTE*]
> 
> 
> The same way a dog in a pack becomes the "Alpha" or leader.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> I have a strong bond with my dogs. They are all great companions and many are competitors. No need for Cesar to obtain any of this. It is not that I don't like him as a person, I just don't have much need for his methods.


Sums it up for me too. No offense to CM, but what could he teach me that is of any use? Exercise dogs and don't let them treat you like doormats...check and check! Common sense.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Everyone should remember that there are VERY FEW really dominant minded dogs c- and until you have one it is very difficult to imagine what they would be like to train.

How many have ever wondered whether your dog would "come up the leash" if you told your dog not to do something or tried to force him/her to do something that it didn't want to? I.E. get off the sofa/bed or give up a really good bone or take it's food bowl away while they are eating?

A few dogs probably in any breed would react like this to a command that they didn't want to do!

One needa a very firm hand with these few dogs - a correction does not "shut them down" as a few have said about their dogs. If a dog will "shut down" due to a leash correction - then you don't need to do anything hard and firm with them obviously BUT what about the other few dogs? (I have one of these!) A great dog but he will try to decide how he is going to behave. I have seen a couple of others in our ScH club - a massive Dobie male and a WL female GSD - give an inch in soft obedience and WOW! They will take a mile!!!!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

codmaster said:


> ayoitzrimz said:
> 
> 
> > :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: That's how you become a "pack leader" by *gently showing the dog that all good things come from you and controlling the environment in such a way that the dog will offer you the behavior you want[/QUOTE*]
> ...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Sums it up for me too. No offense to CM, but what could he teach me that is of any use? Exercise dogs and don't let them treat you like doormats...check and check! Common sense.


 
*Very true - yet probably more like "Uncommom Sense" if we go by what we have heard on this (and other) forum!*


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I agree wholehartedly about the Alpha Roll working with some cases(in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing!)'.


Question: What is the basis of the alpha roll? Why is that maneuver recommended?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> Question: What is the basis of the alpha roll? Why is that maneuver recommended?


For my dog it was recommended for a very dominant aggressive dog who would attack for being told what to do. The Alpha roll was used to show him that he was not superior and that he had to mind what we said. And it worked, and not short term either. It was done a little over 2 years ago and he has never bitten us again-nor has it crossed his mind, the lesson was learned.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> For my dog it was recommended for a very dominant aggressive dog who would attack for being told what to do. The Alpha roll was used to show him that he was not superior and that he had to mind what we said. And it worked, and not short term either. It was done a little over 2 years ago and he has never bitten us again-nor has it crossed his mind, the lesson was learned.


Ditto! Except that our dog never bit or showed aggression to us but really wanted to decide what he was going to do and when! esp. toward other dogs!

Kind of convinced him who was really in charge and that he had to obey and look to us for direction and leadership and not make his own mind up.


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *My guess is that you must be a pro trainer who has also trained hundreds of very human and dog aggressive dogs so that they can exist in society, right?*
> 
> *Or maybe at least read a book about the subject or some Internet reports!*


Do you know how many puppies in my classes have been subjected to bullying and needless, useless confrontational stress? Baby puppies. 

This is not about my ability to train aggressive dogs, this is about barbaric treatment of animals creating problems where they did not exist.



Germanshepherdlova said:


> The reason why this is my favorite part is because this is the only factual statement that was made. The writer *does not really know what Cesar does or how much time he actually spends with each animal because TV shows (such as the one the writer is basing their analysis on) are edited and have large chunks cut out of them for the sake of finishing within the allotted airtime.* Then the writer says that this is merely their own OPINION. They admit that there is no single right answer on how to train animals and that everybody thinks their way is the right way.


And you see no problem with this being sent into the homes of pet owners all across the nation that you know are going to completely ignore that dire disclaimer at the start and get themselves and their dogs into a whole lot of danger?



codmaster said:


> Everyone should remember that there are VERY FEW really dominant minded dogs c- and until you have one it is very difficult to imagine what they would be like to train.
> 
> How many have ever wondered whether your dog would "come up the leash" if you told your dog not to do something or tried to force him/her to do something that it didn't want to? I.E. get off the sofa/bed or give up a really good bone or take it's food bowl away while they are eating?
> 
> ...


At a Pat Hasting seminar last year, she shared this analogy on dominance in dogs (paraphrased from my recollection, but the gist is there):



> You can think of dogs as a corporation. Most dogs are employees; happy to show up, do their job, and get paid. A few dogs are CEOs. They don't have to run all over the company reminding people that They Are The Boss; they just _are_ the Boss. It's the junior executives you have to watch out for.


Most dogs are not really dominant dogs that are willing to go up the leash just because they have been told to do something they don't want to do. Treating most dogs like they are this is borrowing trouble. 

If you do have a dog like this? Get help. And I'm humble enough to know it isn't me.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> And you see no problem with this being sent into the homes of pet owners all across the nation that you know are going to completely ignore that dire disclaimer at the start and get themselves and their dogs into a whole lot of danger?
> 
> Most dogs are not really dominant dogs that are willing to go up the leash just because they have been told to do something they don't want to do. Treating most dogs like they are this is borrowing trouble.
> 
> If you do have a dog like this? Get help. And I'm humble enough to know it isn't me.


For your question-no, I don't. Because if you try to Alpha roll a truly dominant aggressive dog and have no idea what you are doing, then you will bare the consequences of that. The few people who do own a dog at this level will not be dumb enough to try such a thing at home-I hope. How many dog attacks on handlers have you read that were blamed on someone trying to mimic what Cesar does in his show?

I do have a dog like that-and I know what it is like and how hard it is to deal with that. And I agree-get help if you own a dog like that-I did, and got a trainer that specialized in aggression and the Alpha Roll worked wonders for us.

*Message to anybody reading this-do not try doing the Alpha Roll on your own-a dominant aggressive dog like mine WILL try to attack you when you do this. I was bitten when I did it, and if you don't successfully do it-your dog will really become very aggressive with you because he will be certain that he is the Alpha, so make sure that you are working with a professional trainer who specializes in dominant aggression and never try this on your own!!!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wheelhaus said:


> Do you know how many puppies in my classes have been subjected to bullying and needless, useless confrontational stress? Baby puppies.
> 
> This is not about my ability to train aggressive dogs, this is about *barbaric treatment of animals creating problems where they did not exist.*
> 
> ...


 
"Get help" from WHO? You don't mean Cesar or someone like him do you? One could go to some other trainers and try their methods for a year or two to see if it helps first.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> For my dog it was recommended for a very dominant aggressive dog who would attack for being told what to do. The Alpha roll was used to show him that he was not superior and that he had to mind what we said. And it worked, and not short term either. It was done a little over 2 years ago and he has never bitten us again-nor has it crossed his mind, the lesson was learned.


How do you get a dog who sounds so bad, (past tense) to roll over on it's back and then instantly go from aggressive to compliant? Was this something you only did once? Did he put up a stuggle or try to bite you?


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

ME: This is not about my ability to train aggressive dogs, this is about barbaric treatment of animals creating problems where they did not exist.

CODMASTER: You mean Cesar? Or maybe me with my dog? 

I'm sorry for being loose with my pronouns. I was referring to puppy owners I have had in my classes. Because of watching Cesar, they have gone looking for problems that do not exist and I have to spend half my time assuring them that using treats, playing tug, letting their dog walk ahead of them, eat before them, get on the couch, etc etc etc is not going to create a dominant-aggressive dog.

CODMASTER: Exactly what do you consider "BABARIC" treatment? How about "Bullying"? How does one go about bullying a dog anyway? Mine would just think you were playing rough and come back even rougher.

I have had puppy owners come in that have held their puppies on their backs for minutes at a time, turning what should be a gentle and pleasant introduction to handling into something unpredictable and terrifying.

I have had puppy owners take their puppy's food away in the middle of a meal to show that they control the food. 

Puppies taken on hour long leash walks (this is more face-palm than barbaric)

Creating conflict where the is none.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I addressed this earlier so I dug through all the comments and reposted the answer to your question.



Germanshepherdlova said:


> The alpha roll works-how can someone say it doesn't that doesn't even think they could manage to do one?
> 
> We had a trainer help us the first time and my dog was under 1 year old-he is dominant so the first time he fought and I was bit-and bleeding. But it worked and he stopped attacking me after this. People can nay-say all they want but I know it worked for my dog and he'd have been put down by now for dominant aggression if it wasn't for this. That is my story-other people can share theirs but I know what worked for me and my dog. It was my choice-and the type of trainer that I chose-and I don't regret it, not for a second. Further more I am not ashamed of it-even though the majority of the people on this forum frown upon it-that makes no difference to me.





Whiteshepherds said:


> How do you get a dog who sounds so bad, (past tense) to roll over on it's back and then instantly go from aggressive to compliant? Was this something you only did once? Did he put up a stuggle or try to bite you?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> ME: This is not about my ability to train aggressive dogs, this is about barbaric treatment of animals creating problems where they did not exist.
> 
> CODMASTER: You mean Cesar? Or maybe me with my dog?
> 
> ...


The conversation you two are having has completely lost me!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Moving the Alpha training topic to this thread because it fits the topic more. Here is a link about wolves and behavior of the Alpha. I will cut and paste a section.

Annwyn.Info: Wolf Sanctuary - Behaviour

From the link-

Dominant Postures
Include walking with head held high, tail partly erect, standing stiff-legged, baring their teeth aggressively, eyes directed straight to other wolves. Dominant animals may show raised hackles, may growl, and may side-swipe or body-slam into subordinate animals, *sometimes pinning them to the ground.* They may show upright ears, or a wrinkled forehead. They may seize the muzzle of subordinates, and nip or bite them.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Wheelhaus said:


> You cannot get respect through force, it must come from mutual trust.



Quoted for truth.


By using aggressive force you are only creating a dog that obeys out of FEAR *not* RESPECT and TRUST that you are a true leader.


My ex bought a GSD pup from a BYB when he was in college in North Carolina. The dog started having behavioral issues early on, started biting and becoming aggressive. He sent his dog off to an obedience school. They got his dog to be obedient, oh and he was obedient out of fear. They choked him, dragged him, alpha rolled him, shocked him, etc. The only person he was not aggressive to was his owner. He would drop down in submission anytime my ex would correct him, but wanted to rip apart anyone else(gee I wonder why). 

His 4 year old GSD is now living out his life at a no-kill sanctuary because he is too much of a liability. 

I've seen Junior cower down at Cesar before on the show. I know what goes on in their household and it's not positive methods!


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Moving the Alpha training topic to this thread because it fits the topic more. Here is a link about wolves and behavior of the Alpha. I will cut and paste a section.
> 
> Annwyn.Info: Wolf Sanctuary - Behaviour
> 
> ...



Subordinate wolves voluntarily submit to the alpha. They roll over on their own, unlike what your dog wants to do for someone physically throwing him to the ground. Alpha wolves rarely have to use force to get a point across. The only time that a wolf will physically force another to the ground and restrain it is if it means to kill or seriously injure. Using the alpha-roll method on a pet dog based on wolf pack mentality does not make sense at all to me.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

alpha-rolling a dog = no better than this kind of "training":


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Subordinate wolves voluntarily submit to the alpha. They roll over on their own, unlike what your dog wants to do for someone physically throwing him to the ground. Alpha wolves rarely have to use force to get a point across. The only time that a wolf will physically force another to the ground and restrain it is if it means to kill or seriously injure. Using the alpha-roll method on a pet dog based on wolf pack mentality does not make sense at all to me.


It makes no sense to you probably because you have never been faced by that "one" dog who wants to challenge the Alpha. Maybe you have never dealt with the rare one who believes that he is Alpha and is willing to fight you to death for that position. Until you have….you probably will never understand. And I agree-normal pet dogs would not need to be Alpha rolled-we aren't talking about normal dogs-we are talking about the few dangerously aggressive dominant ones who need some serious help or will have to be PTS. That is why the thread title states that The Dog Whisperer has saved many dogs from being PTS. And I will repeat that my dog would have been put down long ago if this training hadn't helped him-and my dog isn't fearful of me, not at all. He is very confident and can be pushy but he no longer thinks that he can bite me for telling him what to do.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And I will repeat that my dog would have been put down long ago if this training hadn't helped him-and my dog isn't fearful of me, not at all. He is very confident and can be pushy but he no longer thinks that he can bite me for telling him what to do.


Can you describe what you mean by confident and also pushy?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I've seen Junior cower down at Cesar before on the show. I know what goes on in their household and it's not positive methods!


How do you know what goes on in someone elses household?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *It makes no sense to you probably because you have never been faced by that "one" dog who wants to challenge the Alpha. *Maybe you have never dealt with the rare one who believes that he is Alpha and is willing to fight you to death for that position. Until you have….you probably will never understand.


How would you know that? Aren't you making a pretty big assumption there? 

We don't even know that YOUR dog was all that. Even if he was, and we only have your word to go by, it's also possible that lack of knowledge of dog training and behavior allowed him to get out of control to that extent, and that it never would have gotten to that point if he had been properly handled from the very beginning. There are very few "dangerously aggressive" dogs that are truly SO "dominant" and SO "alpha" that they would actually fight you to the death, and I would really doubt that alpha rolling would magically fix them if that were the case. Seriously, if that's all it took, they weren't dangerously aggressive in the first place, so I'm going to assume that that's a bit of an exaggeration.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Wheelhaus.

Some people consider prong collars barbaric or abusive and others find them very useful tools.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Only the wolves know what they are doing to what another and what they are communicating. Applying techniques that are interpreted through the human filter to a different species than the wolf even.....never understood it and never found it really useful.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Subordinate wolves voluntarily submit to the alpha. They roll over on their own, unlike what your dog wants to do for someone physically throwing him to the ground. Alpha wolves *rarely (what about the rare one?) *have to use force to get a point across. The only time that a wolf will physically force another to the ground and restrain it is if it means to kill or seriously injure. Using the alpha-roll method on a pet dog based on wolf pack mentality does not make sense at all to me.


 
Just a thought! Did you ever think about just HOW a dog/wolve BECOMES alpha or subordinate? And the pack realizes that they have to obey the leader?

A clue - it is not a vote!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know that my dog doesn't need me to act like a wolf! It is amazing how un- wolflike dogs are!

One of the most amazing differences is the dog's ability to read and interact with humans. They are very genetically programmed to this. I find it most useful to utilize the genetics of the dog that make it receptive to human communication and interaction. Not so sure about how a dog sees a human trying to act like what the human thinks a wolf does to wolves.


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## MegansGrace (Apr 27, 2011)

I don't hate CM, I just don't agree with a lot of his message that he conveys. Especially to the common owner who watches his TV show and then thinks they can alpha roll all the neighborhood dogs into submission. 

a.) I don't really believe in dominance in the way that CM describes it. Nor do I believe in alpha rolling or dominance downs. I also don't believe that we can look at wolves as a model for dog behavior. They are so different from dogs genetically at this point, I no longer believe they are perfect model for the canine population we live with now. Neither does American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior. They also disagree with his technique of alpha rolling and use of term dominance. 

b.) I don't like that instead of finding a reputable trainer to work with their aggressive dog, people try to be CM. He may have a technique that he feels works, but other people don't and shouldn't try and mimic what he's doing. Alpha roll the wrong dog, and you could be seriously injured, not to mention the training regression. 

c.) The basic principles of discipline, exercise, and love (or whatever they are) are both common sense and what the average owner should get out of the show. Most dogs don't get nearly the exercise they should and don't have consistent rules in their house. Sometimes they're allowed on the couch, sometimes they're not, etc. 

d.) There's a lot of behaviorists and trainers out there that can get the same results as CM, without using his methods. I think CM just has had access to the media and it's spread like wild fire. 

e.) Lastly, we're not dogs, so as much as we try to "mimic" dog behavior, they don't see it that was. We can use our hand as a "mouth" and "bite" them, but we don't have the timing, body language, etc to back it up which is typically why this doesn't work for the average owner. 

So,yes, CM has saved many dogs, and I don't hate him, but I am entitled to my opinions of training and treatment of dogs and it happens to not be the same as his. I have experience and knowledge in the field of animal behavior and it doesn't always line up with his methods, but no one method does.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Personally, I can't understand all the hate directed to CM, as his techniques, even if they are based on corrections, are not that harsh at all. It seems that many people sees dogs as cute furry little guys, that they can't stand any kind of aversive methods applied to them (not even using "NO" as voice correction). But in my opinion, corrections are not that bad at all, and it certainly won't damage a dog's psyche if well applied (if the intensity matches the personality of the dog). Most of us (humans, dogs, animals) gets corrected in our daily lives, and that is how we learn what we can and can't do anyways, and we don't all become traumatic and fearful.

The only things I don't really agree with CM are that he seems to put an over emphasis on dominance, and that in some situations, you can use more positive ways to deal with the cases (although he seems to use positive reinforcement more often now - like using treats and massage and lavender oils).

But over all, I've learned valuable lessons from him, like many other people did, and that certainly helped many many dogs in the world to have better lives and not get rehomed or put into sleep so easily.

But well, I just think that many people just can't stand any kind of aversive at all (although their ways of expressing their hate is often far from positive), so that no matter what they will continue hating. But it's just a pity how rare it is to find some opinion on CM's techniques that is truly neutral and open minded, instead of focusing on personal feelings towards his methods.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have no personal feelings towards Cesar or his methods. Certainly have no beef with him as a person. My assessments are not feeling based.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Cesar is ok. Cesar has some kind of gift with dogs and I believe he genuinely, deeply loves dogs. All dogs. 

But his show, is, a tv show. It needs to get ratings to survive, like any show. It needs to have a good flair of drama for that reason.

I think the American public is in love with a quick fix for their dog issues. And, usually -- at least with the vast majority of owners shown on his programs -- the owner is by far and away the problem. 

I will watch it sometimes, but there are some episodes that downright piss me off. Like the one where the white fluffy dog wouldn't allow the wife *on her own bed* and the lily-livered husband did nothing about it, so the wife slept in a different room.

WHAT????????? Really??????????? :headbang:

His "ssssht" thing is minorly annoying, probably because a family member now does that to "correct" his dog... so when I'm around, I almost jump out of my chair when that person delivers yet another "sssshht."

As mentioned before, I think he has a gift, I think he has brought more information to people via his show, but my concerns are that people get the wrong idea that they can fix issues in 30 minutes. Let's face it, most people are just too lazy to put the effort into the "fix" so the previous behavior likely resurfaces almost as soon as he pulls out the camera crew. I'm sure, too, that many of those he visits, do gain the knowledge they needed and kept their dogs, instead of turning them in. For that, he deserves some credit.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> How would you know that? Aren't you making a pretty big assumption there?
> 
> We don't even know that YOUR dog was all that. Even if he was, and we only have your word to go by, it's also possible that lack of knowledge of dog training and behavior allowed him to get out of control to that extent, and that it never would have gotten to that point if he had been properly handled from the very beginning. There are very few "dangerously aggressive" dogs that are truly SO "dominant" and SO "alpha" that they would actually fight you to the death, and I would really doubt that alpha rolling would magically fix them if that were the case. Seriously, if that's all it took, they weren't dangerously aggressive in the first place, so I'm going to assume that that's a bit of an exaggeration.


I am not exaggerating, I am under describing if anything. I won't go into all the details of my dog and our experiences on a public forum-for a variety of reasons. The truth is when I read through peoples comments it is easy to make an assumption that they know zilch about dealing with a dog with serious dominance aggression issues. If many of the people who are so against CM and his methods here were ever faced with a dog like mine, and like a few that CM has dealt with-because some of them would be like a walk in the park compared to my boy-but if some of these commenters were ever faced with such a difficult and challenging situation-they would PROBABLY be begging CM to come help them. And yes, that was another assumption.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have had a socially rank male who exhibited some very profound aggression issues. I won't say that it is easy to deal with such a dog but I do not believe Cesar is necessary. In fact, many physical methods would have been detrimental. A dog ready to get rank can easily be reactive to physical challenging. I have seen strong dogs have their trust destoyed by those thinking the dog needed to feel lesser to a dominance professing owner.


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

chelle said:


> His "ssssht" thing is minorly annoying, probably because a family member now does that to "correct" his dog... so when I'm around, I almost jump out of my chair when that person delivers yet another "sssshht."


When I got to take a bite off a dog at work, they told me to make a sound like that to get the dog agitated.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I firmly believe that only Cesar can be Cesar. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very good essay about CM and the way that he controls his space. I've heard that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong. Dog training is a conversation between the dog and the trainer and while the basics may be fairly universal, the variations are numerous.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> I firmly believe that only Cesar can be Cesar. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very good essay about CM and the way that he controls his space. I've heard that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong. Dog training is a conversation between the dog and the trainer and while the basics may be fairly universal, the variations are numerous.


:thumbup:That pretty much sums it all up.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks, I thought about this for a while.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> Thanks, I thought about this for a while.



I just read most of it and it is fascinating. Those who don't like Cesar probably still won't but I thought it was an excellent essay.


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

chelle said:


> Cesar is ok. Cesar has some kind of gift with dogs and I believe he genuinely, deeply loves dogs. All dogs.
> 
> But his show, is, a tv show. It needs to get ratings to survive, like any show. It needs to have a good flair of drama for that reason.
> 
> ...


 
wheres the like button?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are many dog trainers I agree with. That either makes me an anomaly to the axiom or not a trainer!

No one is all bad or all good in their approaches. There is always something to learn or improve on. I would not even say that, I have to look at the major thesis and approaches. There are things with Cesar that I have seen poorly used by the general pet owning public. Good training and behavior mod makes for really boring TV. I think that is something that is important.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

blehmannwa said:


> I firmly believe that only Cesar can be Cesar. Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very good essay about CM and the way that he controls his space. I've heard that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong. Dog training is a conversation between the dog and the trainer and while the basics may be fairly universal, the variations are numerous.


Can you post a link with the entire essay? I can only find highlights from it-here is one that I liked-

He is the teacher that we all had in grade school and everyone calms down and behaves. But what did that teacher have? She had presence” Malcolm Gladwell


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I actually had the opportunity to see Cesar speak live this past weekend. I'm neither a die hard Cesar fan or someone who dislikes him, but his explanations and personal stories were extremely educational, funny, and put in terms that the "average" dog owner could understand. He didn't harp on the whole dominance thing, which was nice.. and he had some pretty spot on impressions of the typical dog owner that I think we all could relate to.

IMO most of the issues that come from Cesar and his methods are when people misunderstand and either use them incorrectly or inappropriately. My boss did a radio interview with Cesar a few days before the event and mentioned something along those lines, to which Cesar restated that on the show it does say to consult a professional and not to attempt yourself. Of course not everyone is going to consider or follow that.

All in all I think Cesar is someone who genuinely cares for dogs, and I understand where some people get all up in arms at the mere mention of his name.. but i'm a firm believer that not all methods will work with all dogs, and sometimes people can get out of hand when discussing which methods are "right". Just my 2 cents.


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## matthewm11 (Oct 18, 2011)

Didn't the Mech wolf studies show that dominance theory was misinterpreted by the monks of new skete? (ie: alpha rolls are actually symbolic posturing initiated by the submissive wolf, not forced by the dominant wolf; and that natural wolf packs are lead by an alpha mating pair, no wolf becomes alpha through force...) Either way alpha rolls seem dangerous when leadership can be obtained without force, through NILIF.

That being said I have never personally dealt with a truly dominant, aggressive dog.


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## GSD246 (Jan 17, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Wheelhaus.
> 
> Some people consider prong collars barbaric or abusive and others find them very useful tools.


I love the prong collar. It has allowed me to train in areas that otherwise would be impossible for my experience as a handler. I think it is awesome when used for the right purpose.




chelle said:


> I think the American public is in love with a quick fix for their dog issues. And, usually -- at least with the vast majority of owners shown on his programs -- the owner is by far and away the problem.
> 
> As mentioned before, I think he has a gift, I think he has brought more information to people via his show, but my concerns are that people get the wrong idea that they can fix issues in 30 minutes. Let's face it, most people are just too lazy to put the effort into the "fix" so the previous behavior likely resurfaces almost as soon as he pulls out the camera crew. I'm sure, too, that many of those he visits, do gain the knowledge they needed and kept their dogs, instead of turning them in. For that, he deserves some credit.


I don't think he shows a lot of the work he does on his show. Ceaser isn't meant to replace a dog trainer or even books. He was of a great help to me. I've had more than one trainer and I've read about 4 books now. Seeing Ceaser work with dogs through his shows has helped me a lot with my own issues with timing and reward. He also helped me pay a little more attention to my dogs body language. I doubt I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have as fast I have if it wasn't for Ceaser and other trainers like him who are willing to broadcast some of their training methods. 



matthewm11 said:


> Didn't the Mech wolf studies show that dominance theory was misinterpreted by the monks of new skete? (ie: alpha rolls are actually symbolic posturing initiated by the submissive wolf, not forced by the dominant wolf; and that natural wolf packs are lead by an alpha mating pair, no wolf becomes alpha through force...) Either way alpha rolls seem dangerous when leadership can be obtained without force, through NILIF.
> 
> That being said I have never personally dealt with a truly dominant, aggressive dog.


My gf picked out our dog. She was aggressive when we picked her out. I never did understand why she wanted her. Nor did I realize just how much time she was going to take to get that cleared up. The dog was chasing her around growing and biting at her, and she says she wants her? I always wanted a GSD so I jumped at the chance to get her despite her issues.

Trainer 1 tried to take her away from us to train her in his own training area noting that there is no way we could possible do it. I didn't take him up on his offer. Couldn't imagine it sticking at home and I really wanted to be the one to train my dog. 

Trainer 2 was big on 100% positive training. She learned tricks, however, the aggression was unaffected and he didn't know how to best address it with 100% positive training. 

Trainer 3, the aggression was on the way out before we actually started training. By that point I had read a few books and a bunch of info over the net on how to keep my dog from randomly attacking us when she didn't get her way. I exhausted all I knew at the time without any real signs of success. It scared me that she might hurt someone. I met with my third trainer about a month and half before we actually were able to get started. She recommended the alpha row to me since I had already tried most of what she could think of. After attempting my first alpha row her presences seemed to change, as if she was a little more careful about her approach. I think I might have done it two or three times after that before it wasn't needed anymore. After that, grabbing her collar and saying no in a firm voice stopped her from biting actually worked because she seemed to have calmed down. Then I didn't have to grab her collar anymore to give her a correction, just a no or turning my back on her worked. That is where we are now. She doesn't bite anywhere near as hard as she use to, it's more of a nibble. I've been making a list on what causes her aggression and been working on them 1 at a time to try to get her past them. It is a lot easier to deal with now since I don't have to apply any physical correction and the trigger list is much shorter. Some of her triggers were really weird. I wish I would have been able to find out her history.

The important thing to take from this is that I didn't keep the physical corrections. I only used them when needed and as a last resort each and every time before I used it I would try different things before going that route. A word of warning is that it did cost me some trust. She was very jumpy around me for awhile. Since I've been able to be a lot more positive with her I think she trust me now more than ever. I don't recommend anyone take the route of using some training methods, period. It worked for me but it could have easily have went wrong. 

Final note: I know a lot more now than I did then. Who knows if I still would have exhausted all my steps. I'm betting anything the largest problem was me. When she would tense up to bite me I would probably get a little tense myself because her bites would hurt. Such things were hard for me to notice. Seeing Ceaser work with a few dogs handlers made me realize that was probably me, that tensed person without even fully realizing it. Maybe I could have avoid the whole situation by not allowing her to get me worked up which stopped any of my positive methods from working at the time. My other trainers didn't notice I was tense because I'm great at hiding my emotions. I'd bet anything my dog still noticed it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSD246 said:


> I don't think he shows a lot of the work he does on his show. Ceaser isn't meant to replace a dog trainer or even books. He was of a great help to me. I've had more than one trainer and I've read about 4 books now. Seeing Ceaser work with dogs through his shows has helped me a lot with my own issues with timing and reward. He also helped me pay a little more attention to my dogs body language. I doubt I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have as fast I have if it wasn't for Ceaser and other trainers like him who are willing to broadcast some of their training methods.


I am sincerely glad he helped you! I honestly do respect him. Tv show, ratings, all that aside, I don't think anyone can dispute he loves dogs and he genuinely has the presence, as someone else mentioned. I've watched many of his shows. I enjoy them. If I can take a bit of knowledge, or more! then I'm better than where I came from. A little of this trainer, a little of that trainer, an online forum, etc and so on.. and then apply it, I'm better off. And so is my dog. I'm not anti-Cesar. I just take all information with a grain of salt, think about it, work with it and go from there. There's no black and white answer because dogs aren't black and white. At least, that's what I've come to believe.!


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## GSD246 (Jan 17, 2012)

chelle said:


> I am sincerely glad he helped you! I honestly do respect him. Tv show, ratings, all that aside, I don't think anyone can dispute he loves dogs and he genuinely has the presence, as someone else mentioned. I've watched many of his shows. I enjoy them. If I can take a bit of knowledge, or more! then I'm better than where I came from. A little of this trainer, a little of that trainer, an online forum, etc and so on.. and then apply it, I'm better off. And so is my dog. I'm not anti-Cesar. I just take all information with a grain of salt, think about it, work with it and go from there. There's no black and white answer because dogs aren't black and white. At least, that's what I've come to believe.!


I watched two more episodes of the dog whisper since posting this. Seeing how I've only seen a total of 5 I can't say much about what others might not be liking. The flooring method? I used it with awesome success if all it means is putting a dog in area where they aren't comfortable and allowing them to get a little more comfortable with it while controlling external factors. 

Where did the idea of learning how to train a dog by watching the Dog Whisper come from? Do we watch UFC so we can learn how to fight? If so, it would be a strange way of actually learning it. The only thing he tries to teach his audience is to be more relaxed and comfortable with their dogs. Tries his hardest to get people to see that their dog is trying to speak to them about what they want and need. Most importantly, reminds them that dogs are not people, they don't see things in the same since that people do. If that is already clear to you then your not going to learn that. It is like watching one of the court TV shows. We don't watch those shows to learn about court right? They are mainly for enjoyment purposes. 

5 episodes I've watch now and he still hasn't taught me how to teach a sit... Ceaser Millan has failed me! If the above statement doesn't apply to those watching then it should be pretty clear that Ceaser Millan isn't a replacement for a club or trainer and in my opinion a trainer is not a replacement for a club.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cesar won't teach you how to train your dog. He teaches how to manage behaviors. I think he is a little to jacked up on the dominant dog thing. Stepping out with confidence and exercising the dog will make a load of difference. 

I don't agree with some of what I have seen. I think he is very old-school. I think that if he would embrace positive training, he would get just as good results if not better. And his more recent episodes do have more positive stuff in them. I think his demeaner, and the fact that he is not afraid of dogs just because they have four feet and fangs, gets him farther than a lot of people. 

With a typical dog, his techniques aren't going to cause any pain. I think you can get there better in other ways, but no biggie. But with a fearful dog or a soft dog, applying his techniques can put you back and can even be dangerous. Because he has a pretty good feeling for dogs, he is probably not having a lot of problems in that area because he probably does not treat softer dogs the same way. Unfortunately, his empahsis on dominant behaviors, are what people carry away with them. When these people apply the techniques to their less then stellar fear-aggressive, or soft/shy dogs, they run into problems. 

People watch a TV show, and suddenly they are experts too. They are self-fashioned Cesars, and are out there alpha rolling their dogs or other people's dogs. They push other people to do this or that with their dogs, and I think that can do a lot of harm. Look at the dude in Africa with the Rottweiler. He was a Cesar fan and used what he thought was Cesar's methods. He was seriously flooding a reactive dog in a busy mall and the outcome was a little girl seriously injured and a blot on service dogs -- because he stated that this dog was a service dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Every good trainer/behaviorist knows that sometimes different dogs do best with different methods.

Would any good trainer use hard methods with a very soft dog - NO! But also it might be good to remember that sometimes Cesar deals with very hard dogs that many other trainer/behaviorist cannot deal with (or would take so long to fix that the dog would probably mellow out from old age.

I had one "trainer" ( a pro who made her living training dogs in Rally/Obedience and Agility and who was a big advocate of a "friendly" method/approach respecting the dog's feelings) actually give up on my pooch when she couldn't get a collar on him to take him out of and in to his kennel. He wasn't openly aggressive either, just a big rough stubborn dog who wanted to do things his way. I was laid up from an operation so we had this trainer come over to the house - and she had had the dog in class with me and was very friendly with him and in fact had handled him many times in class. She just wasn't prepared enough to "Make" him obey when he got out of control. 

I wonder what she would have been able to do if he was seriously aggressive, not just a butthead?

Anybody think that Cesar would have given up and walked away?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe Cesar gives up and walks away from dogs who are soft. We would never know if he does.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> Maybe Cesar gives up and walks away from dogs who are soft. We would never know if he does.


Actually I have seen at least one show dealing with a "soft" dog. He adapts to the dog. No one seems to give him credit for that


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

In the last episode I've seen, in which he was dealing with a bulldog with aggressive behavior towards customers in a salon, he didn't confront him, but managed the situation instead. He explained how customers coming right to the dog for petting stresses the dog, and told the owner to warn customers about "no eye contact, no touch, no talk" when the dog is in his own space and only petting him and giving him treats when he's near the exit door.

I haven't seen all episodes, and in the right order, but it seems that he does use different methods, including positive ones and not just all about confrontation, which is nice (he seemed to me that he puts too much emphasis on dominance).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Maybe Cesar gives up and walks away from dogs who are soft. We would never know if he does.


 
Maybe if you were able to watch the show, you would see that he has had a number of "soft" or scary dogs on it and has helped them as well.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't have cable, so I don't regularly watch CM. My daughter purchased a season for me as a gift. So the other night I thought I'd watch a couple of episodes.

One was about a standard poodle who was car reactive. It was a well behaved dog, but when they walked it on a leash and a vehicle came by the dog would spin on the leash...the handler did nothing to stop it. Really? You can train your dog, but you can't correct a simple behavior? Basically CM shortened the leash. TA! DA!

The next was a little dog who was aggressive to people around the person who was holding the dog. The owner did nothing to stop the behavior. CM pretty much shoved the dog away (as it tried to bite) and the dog said, Ok, no prob. 

I wasn't impressed by the episodes. It wasn't bad dogs, it was bad handlers. 

However, I WAS impressed that CM sat and explained to the handlers that the behavior was THEIR fault and not the dogs. He didn't pretend to have some magic power over the dog, but only used simple logic. Because of that, I'll continue to watch the rest of the season.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Very good behavior changes can be made with training. The proper relationship established and self control taught through training the dog is quite effective. Training can be the basis for skills to use in behavioral modification. I guess I find that pretty amazing! I have a friend who can naturally have the effect that Cesar does on dogs due to her presence. She does not utilize it with clients dogs or try to teach it to them. They learn to train the dog and establish their own relationship sans any intimidation for space, establishment of dominace, etc. It works amazingly well and saves dogs lives!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I don't regularly watch him but when I do I am hooked! I just got a few of his books for Christmas and can't put them down. They are so insightful and helpful!!! Glad this thread was made to support him!


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

Just want to give another two thumbs up for a guy whose life is lived for dogs. He's one of the good guys who works with dogs whose owners also need work. He's made mistakes, even admitted that he has....I've seen him do it.

I've seen Ceaser work with soft dogs. I've seen him use positive training. I've seen him hire chiropractors and practitioners of accupuncture. I've also seen him use such alternative methods as DAP, music and aroma therapy. I've seen how he sought out others who are more experienced than he, just so that the dog's needs might be better met.

He's had quite a few trainers on Dog Whisperer, some of whom seek him for help. And the converse, he seeks out trainers for dogs that even he couldn't reach. On one episode, a trainer adopted a dog from a dog trainer....byway of Ceaser.....and it was a match made in heaven.

Not trying to say Ceaser is perfect....just saying he's pretty good for being human.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Maybe if you were able to watch the show, you would see that he has had a number of "soft" or scary dogs on it and has helped them as well.


Since I do not have television at home, I am not able to watch it much, but I have seen episodes in the vet's office and at my parents. These were the older ones, when he was not so into anything positive. And, I have read his book. No biggie. He is not my type of trainer (as he is really not doing training so much as behavior modification), but my comment was in response to a post that said they did not think Cesar would walk away from a dog, like other trainers would do. 

Personally, I think that a trainer will do far less harm if they realize that they are not the right trainer for the dog, if they do nothing at all with the dog, and refer the owner to someone else.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Gmthrust said:


> Just want to give another two thumbs up for a guy whose life is lived for dogs. He's one of the good guys who works with dogs whose owners also need work. He's made mistakes, even admitted that he has....I've seen him do it.
> 
> I've seen Ceaser work with soft dogs. I've seen him use positive training. I've seen him hire chiropractors and practitioners of accupuncture. I've also seen him use such alternative methods as DAP, music and aroma therapy. I've seen how he sought out others who are more experienced than he, just so that the dog's needs might be better met.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Since I do not have television at home, I am not able to watch it much, but I have seen episodes in the vet's office and at my parents. These were the older ones, when he was not so into anything positive. And, I have read his book. No biggie. He is not my type of trainer (as he is really not doing training so much as behavior modification), but my comment was in response to a post that said they did not think Cesar would walk away from a dog, like other trainers would do.
> 
> Personally, I think that a trainer will do far less harm if they realize that they are not the right trainer for the dog, if they do nothing at all with the dog, and refer the owner to someone else.


Well then that would help explain your reaction to Cesar and his show. 

And Exactly true, he is NOT a trainer in the usual sense of the word - i.e. sit, down, stay. He is Much more into fixing a dog's social behavior ( a MUCH more difficult thing to my mind).

How would you suggest that a trainer recognize that he/she is not a good choice for a particular dog? (Other than admitting they might be a little afraid of a particular dog, of course). 

Maybe a number of them should realize they are in over their head with large very HA and/or DA dogs, but I would guess that most would not admit it even if they thought it to themselves.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Well then that would help explain your reaction to Cesar and his show.
> 
> And Exactly true, he is NOT a trainer in the usual sense of the word - i.e. sit, down, stay. He is Much more into fixing a dog's social behavior ( a MUCH more difficult thing to my mind).
> 
> ...


Exactly what reaction??? If I do not bow down and worship the ground he walks on, I am a hater??? I have read his book, I have seen many shows. I do not particularly care for how he tends to continue to stress or flood a dog that is on the edge. That bothers me. That is just an opinion. The last I heard, opinions are allowed. I think that on this site though, one can express a more varied opinion on God and get away with it a lot faster than they will if they have an opinion on Cesar.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> *Exactly what reaction???* If I do not bow down and worship the ground he walks on, I am a hater??? I have read his book,* I have seen many shows.* I do not particularly care for how he tends to continue to stress or flood a dog that is on the edge. That bothers me. That is just an opinion. The last I heard, *opinions are allowed.* I think that on this site though, one can express a more varied opinion on God and get away with it a lot faster than they will if they have an opinion on Cesar.


 
*This one!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

*And you certainly have your own opinion!*

*Good for watching!*

*Doubt it about God, though!*


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> Unfortunately, his empahsis on dominant behaviors, are what people carry away with them. *When these people apply the techniques to their less then stellar fear-aggressive, or soft/shy dogs, they run into problems.*


Anybody who would use techniques intended for dogs with dominant behavioral problems on a soft, shy, or fear-aggressive dog can't be that bright to begin with and probably has made many more mistakes with their dog already that have nothing to do with CM's show.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Anybody who would use techniques intended for dogs with dominant behavioral problems on a soft, shy, or fear-aggressive dog can't be that bright to begin with and probably has made many more mistakes with their dog already that have nothing to do with CM's show.


But that's the problem. Some people don't know the difference between fearful or aggressive behavior. So people watch his show twice and all of a sudden they're rolling and pinning dogs to the floor, making the problem worse.

I don't hate Cesar, but I wish he'd do a few shows that explained how to tell the difference. (assuming he'd treat a fearful dog differently)


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> But that's the problem. Some people don't know the difference between fearful or aggressive behavior. So people watch his show twice and all of a sudden they're rolling and pinning dogs to the floor, making the problem worse.
> 
> I don't hate Cesar, but I wish he'd do a few shows that explained how to tell the difference. (assuming he'd treat a fearful dog differently)


Great idea! I am going to send him a message on his Facebook suggesting that he do a show on that. Hope he gets my message and considers it!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> But that's the problem. Some people don't know the *difference between fearful or aggressive behavior*. So people watch his show twice and all of a sudden they're rolling and pinning dogs to the floor, making the problem worse.
> 
> I don't hate Cesar, but I wish he'd do a few shows that explained how to tell the difference. (assuming he'd treat a fearful dog differently)


 
so how would you tell the difference? A lot of people seem to think that ALL behavior of a dog is caused/influenced by a dog's fear!

I had a pro instructor once tell me that my then 2yo male GSD was "anxious" and "fearful" because he was sniffing the ground while on a down stay. With this dog, that was most ridiculous - he was sniffing because he was smelling something good on the mat in the training building (he had found a few extra treats earlier in the class). But that is an example of some folks theories of dog behavior.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

codmaster said:


> so how would you tell the difference? A lot of people seem to think that ALL behavior of a dog is caused/influenced by a dog's fear!
> 
> I had a pro instructor once tell me that my then 2yo male GSD was "anxious" and "fearful" because he was sniffing the ground while on a down stay. With this dog, that was most ridiculous - he was sniffing because he was smelling something good on the mat in the training building (he had found a few extra treats earlier in the class). But that is an example of some folks theories of dog behavior.


CM can explain this much better but dominance aggression would be evident by a dog consistently being aggressive to people whenever they try to tell him No, give him an order, let me use my dog for example. My dog has a tough time accepting being told what to do and standing with your hands on your hips or pointing at him are enough to set him off as he associates that with a human trying to be bossy. Visitors to our home have to be advised about what never to do around him for their personal safety. We usually just keep him on a lead when people come over, many people will no longer visit us at all. 

A fear aggressive dog attacks because he is afraid of something and he is in a fight or flight state of mind. What sets this type of dog off is what he is afraid of. There is a significant difference in their body language as well.


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