# Regional Schutzhund Trial - My observations



## dzg

So I dropped by the Ontario Regional Schutzhund qualifier and spent about 2 hours watching the dogs this morning in the "protection phase".

I went with an open mind to observe and learn but after this I really don't understand this sport of schutzhund, at all. 
Alot of the dogs were not really checking the blinds they just ran around them like they are obstacles, most dogs knew where the helper was from the get go (probably because judges and photographer were clustered around that blind - dogs are intelligent) and some subsequently skipped a few of the blinds on their own accord.

The handlers made a show of pointing towards the blinds to direct the dog but dogs were paying no notice to them as they tore around so it was more for show than effect. So the dog is totally trained and knows what is expected of him (not very natural, more theatrical and orchestrated) true schutzhund test would be in area dog has never seen, different setup from training and then lets see natural reactions.

Alot of the dogs were totally focused on the sleeve, even when helper was off-field the dogs could be seen tracking the sleeve and positioning his body in that direction (this is when judge is delivering score and dog should be "off").
How is this 'protection work' when the sleeve is "imprinted" on the dogs brain ... its just a game in the dogs mind, bite the sleeve, get the sleeve, sleeve is all that matters, thats it.

Dogs seemed really high strung (whiny, barking etc) is this normal? Maybe competition nerves?

Alot of barking and growling going on if you walked by a van with dogs in it (again is this normal? some vans actually shook as I walked by, not at, but by! It startled me twice ... again is this normal? And if so then why, I am not threatening just walking by minding my business).

Many dogs failed to release when ordered to do so, in fact this was 90% normal when owner was in the far away position. Sure dog could hear them, heck I could hear the handlers clearly and I was another 30 metres away.

I also don't get why handlers had to yell at the top of their lungs to "aus" when the dog was 5 feet away from them? 
It felt to me like when you have no control over a child and you have to yell and scream to get them to pay attention ... And even then dog would not release .... imo a biddable dog should release immediately with a normal level voice command ... why yell at top of your lungs at 5 feet and even then its a 50-50 chance he/she obeys.

Some of the male dogs were big (heavy) and would hit with real power, this received highest applause from audience, it seemed a case of brawn and power over obedience and biddability. 
A dog bite hurts even from a sheltie, it will stop most attackers, imo a dog should be more obedient to do as handler asks rather than simply be prized for amount of hitting power.

I enjoyed the most seeing which dogs were biddable to the handler when told to release first time and immediately ... I woudl think obedience is th eultimate goal of dog training not intensity and hitting power .... unfortunately very very few woudl score high in my books..

There was one sable bitch that was very very good, she was small, but very obedient and biddable, unfortunately I don't know who she was as there was no announcement of the dogs as they entered the ring to compete nor did the judge say the name of the dog as he gave the points (strange administration of event).

Don't get defensive or angry, it was my first such schutzhund meet and I am posting honest, unfiltered observations. 
Schutzhund is imo simply a "sport" with very little (if any) real world value, I would rather spend my time doing obedience and having a biddable focused dog rather than seeing how quickly a dog can tear around the field and hit the helper with max power.

But I also realise that power/aggression/intensity wins titles and titled parents then sell puppies for the breeders ... we all have bills to pay (I get it) and so the cycle continues. Sad, sad, sad.


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## Sunflowers

I guess that is why Hans's breeder made me sign a contract that guaranteed his temperament only if I don't do protection work.

I do think Schutzhund is done wrong a lot of times. Correct me if I am mistaken.


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## dzg

I forgot to add that I thought the judge was very good and fair, he penalized dogs that would not "aus" and he was very frank and honest (no sugar coating) when giving his critique.

Only strange thing - on a female that would not aus until told to do so repeatedly (She only scored 72) he said due to her intensity she is a very good candidate for breeding ... this is the only small gripe I would have with him ... otherwise he was spot-on.


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## Wolfgeist

My friend and I are competing at the Ontario Regionals tomorrow in the show ring.

Schutzhund is indeed a sport, and some people really enjoy it. They have fun, the dogs have fun - why is that such a bad thing?


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## ayoitzrimz

Did you at least watch the other two phases or just came for the flashy protection phase? Most people like to see protection... the problem is that most people also don't really know what they are *seeing* in a protection routine.

With that said - not outing, not checking each blind, being too sleeve focused - they are pet peeves of mine personally but not everyone trains the same and not every dog is the same.

Plus, its not like these dogs are exactly saving lives over here. Schutzhund is a sport and people like to have a little fun trialing and training with their dog. I don't think its "sad sad sad" I think its great that people spend time working and bonding with their dogs, learning about dogs, and just being better owners than average Joe and his two walks around the block routine.


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## elisabeth_00117

I know a lot of the competitors and it is held on the grounds where I consider to be a guest a lot of the time and am going to soon be considered a member... I know how hard these dogs and handlers work... for someone to come and view 1 trial and then to make judgements on a public board like this really irks me to be honest.

Did you talk to the handlers after? Did you ask people THERE all of these questions or the concerns you have?

I have been involved in schutzhund for almost 3 years now, seriously for over just a year and I can tell you that what you see takes YEARS of work and for someone with no knowledge of the SPORT or the dogs or people there competing to make judgements on a public forum like this really is not fair.


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## elisabeth_00117

Sunflowers said:


> I guess that is why Hans's breeder made me sign a contract that guaranteed his temperament only if I don't do protection work.
> 
> I do think Schutzhund is done wrong a lot of times. Correct me if I am mistaken.



This is why it is imperative to work with people who are experienced in the sport and have the same training goals/methods as you do.

If it feels wrong to you then it probably is.

Personally, a breeder who doesn't guarantee temperament just because of that is not a breeder I would work with. I think MORE 'pet people' can screw up a dogs "temperament" (I say this with quotes because I believe temperament is genetic) than a schutzhund club.


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## ed1911

You should hang around for the obedience portion of the trial.


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## elisabeth_00117

Yes, or the tracking.

Everyone expects dogs to be PERFECT, they are dogs and we are humans - both not perfect beings!


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## phgsd

Checking each blind is worth (if I remember right) about 1 point total. For many it's just not worth the time/effort to train. 

I don't think it's easy to appreciate the amount of control needed in protection, even if it doesn't look that way. Many of the exercises need lots of control/obedience, such as the back transport - if the dogs were out of control there's no way they'd stay with the handler. Handlers have to walk a fine line between control and obedience to compete at high levels. 

They are trained to bark for what they want in protection - much of the initial training starts out with dogs being agitated and when they bark they get rewarded with the tug or sleeve. So they may vocalize when they are excited.

Most competitors train males - and many females are not as strong as a tough male - so to have a strong female is something to be proud of, even if she didn't out, the judge was recognizing her temperament. 

As others have said...schutzhund is a sport, each dog is different, and each trainer is different. And I bet you would have been blown away had you watched obedience. Protection is only 1/3 of the sport.


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## elisabeth_00117

If the small female was the sable going for her '2' with a female handler then I know that dog and have watched her train as well as met and watched her puppies train as well. 

It's a STRONG female with an impeccable temperament and she has working ability coming out her tail!


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## Mrs.K

elisabeth_00117 said:


> If the small female was the sable going for her '2' with a female handler then I know that dog and have watched her train as well as met and watched her puppies train as well.
> 
> It's a STRONG female with an impeccable temperament and she has working ability coming out her tail!


DZG said he liked that sable female. 



However, I just LOVE his questions.
I am surprised of the eye for details, like the dogs not looking into the blind and being focused on the sleeve rather than on the helper. For a first timer, not bad at all and these are legitimate questions. One has to ask questions in order to learn.


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## carmspack

for someone to come and view 1 trial and then to make judgements on a public board like this really irks me to be honest.

well now , just a minute , I would likely say the same things -- too many dogs are too wired , can't contain, can't compose to calm when not required -- not only my saying something similar -- but judges also -- with years and years of experience. 
First impressions will help the health and activity of sport in the future, whether it is accepted or not .
Some of the BEST dogs in performance I have seen were GSD at the national police dog trials held out in Mississauga, Milton area few years ago. Close public contact, great control - call offs, "outs", obedience -- good looking specimens also.
Public relations !! 
Carmen


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## codmaster

Interesting observations from the OP. I would also agree with most of them.

I did some ScH training with two GSD's many years ago and have recently gotten back into the sport just in the last year or so with a local club.

Totally different to me and my unknowledgable mind.

Back then the dogs all had to pass a temperament test just to get into the training group.

The long ago training was (seemed) MUCH more serious and real life based. (Training in "defence" maybe rather than prey drive). No threats to the dog it seems now, so it is a game to them. More un game like back then, it seemed the plan was to make the dog think he had to defend himself. (again - this is to my very inexperienced eye!). I think that this approach would be more in keeping with the idea of ScH being a breeding test whereas today ScH does seem to be more of a sport (game?). 

Now the training is very "sleeve oriented", admitedly by the head trainer and president of the club. Certainly not a bad thing, just seems different. I do know that all of the dogs in the club are very social when off of the protection field - approachable and even outwardly friendly to all the people.

I have to also say that I don't think I would have been as quick to decide that I wanted to join the club if they had had the older view of training and intent. The sport is a fun thng to do. I am also not aiming at national competition which probably makes a difference in my attitude.

BTW, my male GSD is not of German or even US Sch lines - actually he is a most unusual US dog from a top US show kennel with nary a ScH degree anywhere to be seen in the 4 generation pedigree that I have for him! Yet he is doing very well in the Protection phase (tracking and obedience are very fine) of the training. (He was over 3yo when we got started.)


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> for someone to come and view 1 trial and then to make judgements on a public board like this really irks me to be honest.
> 
> well now , just a minute , I would likely say the same things -- too many dogs are too wired , can't contain, can't compose to calm when not required -- not only my saying something similar -- but judges also -- with years and years of experience.
> First impressions will help the health and activity of sport in the future, whether it is accepted or not .
> Some of the BEST dogs in performance I have seen were GSD at the national police dog trials held out in Mississauga, Milton area few years ago. Close public contact, great control - call offs, "outs", obedience -- good looking specimens also.
> Public relations !!
> Carmen


I ditto in every aspect. If a first timer can see all that than there is an issue. And my parents would say the same things, so would probably I and I am so not qualified since I have not titled a single dog myself and am a horrible beginner in competition style handling.


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## DunRingill

carmspack said:


> well now , just a minute , I would likely say the same things -- too many dogs are too wired , can't contain, can't compose to calm when not required -- not only my saying something similar -- but judges also -- with years and years of experience.
> First impressions will help the health and activity of sport in the future, whether it is accepted or not .


Where's the "LIKE" button? I agree 110%.


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## GatorDog

carmspack said:


> for someone to come and view 1 trial and then to make judgements on a public board like this really irks me to be honest.
> 
> well now , just a minute , I would likely say the same things -- too many dogs are too wired , can't contain, can't compose to calm when not required -- not only my saying something similar -- but judges also -- with years and years of experience.
> First impressions will help the health and activity of sport in the future, whether it is accepted or not .
> Some of the BEST dogs in performance I have seen were GSD at the national police dog trials held out in Mississauga, Milton area few years ago. Close public contact, great control - call offs, "outs", obedience -- good looking specimens also.
> Public relations !!
> Carmen


Dogs that are completely out of control shouldn't pass IMO, and I've been seeing judges take temperament very seriously since the rule changes.


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## elisabeth_00117

carmspack said:


> for someone to come and view 1 trial and then to make judgements on a public board like this really irks me to be honest.
> 
> well now , just a minute , I would likely say the same things -- too many dogs are too wired , can't contain, can't compose to calm when not required -- not only my saying something similar -- but judges also -- with years and years of experience.
> First impressions will help the health and activity of sport in the future, whether it is accepted or not .
> Some of the BEST dogs in performance I have seen were GSD at the national police dog trials held out in Mississauga, Milton area few years ago. Close public contact, great control - call offs, "outs", obedience -- good looking specimens also.
> Public relations !!
> Carmen



Like I said, it irks ME, doesn't have to bother anyone else. 

But to me, to go and view 1 part of 1 trial and then to come to a public forum and post what the OP did, just seems one sided to me is all.

Agree with me or not, that is *my* opinion. 

I agree though with what you are saying, no arguments as I see the same thing every time I go out and train or visit another club or view a trial or a training session of other types of sport/working dogs.


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## elisabeth_00117

Mrs.K said:


> DZG said he liked that sable female.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I just LOVE his questions.
> I am surprised of the eye for details, like the dogs not looking into the blind and being focused on the sleeve rather than on the helper. For a first timer, not bad at all and these are legitimate questions. One has to ask questions in order to learn.


Yes, I know. I was just trying to see if it was the same dog and am providing the OP with some more information on a dog I *think* I know.


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## dzg

Thanks for your candid responses.

Please note that I am not making any judgements, I simply shared my observations/thoughts (without filtering or political correctness) and I asked many sincere questions.

Nor am I disparaging the effort of the handlers/trainers. I applaud their dedication to their activity.

Also I value a highly biddable dog and one with a calmer nature so maybe this colours my observations?

When I said "_I don't get Schutzhund_" - let me explain ... I was under the impression that one of the utility aspects of protection phase is to test "courage" .... but these dogs train in schutzhund clubs with similar/same setup so dog knows handler will not hurt him, dog knows the environment, knows what to expect ... so is it really test of courage? I don't think so.

I missed the tracking phase on friday and I missed the obedience part on early Saturday (I was lazy to get out of bed - yes I'm lazy human) .... this would have been more my interest and probably alot more utility so I really regret missing it .... so what I should say is "_I don't get the protection phase of schutzhund_". 
Thats probably more fair statement.


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## elisabeth_00117

That is fair and totally understandable!

I will say that I too have one of each; a low drive dog who is not interested in being biddable or performing for me for a ball or toy or praise (he is an excellent companion and has impeccable "pet" behaviours/training) and the total opposite in my youngest who is high drive, biddable, work for anything! type dog.

Seeing and training this phase with both dogs; the first being training for the exercises and going through the motions in protection (such as just running the blinds to run them) and the other being having a dog who checks every blind because she is actually looking for someone (naturally, no real training other than the pattern with her) that I can understand both sides.

Will you be there on tomorrow to see the show? I will be there tomorrow with my two.


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## dzg

Hi Elisabeth,
Just saw your post, I was not there today as it was conformation style judging which is of no interest to me.

It would have been nice to meet you, perhaps next time there is a meet I will post here beforehand that I am going and see if anyone wants to say hello.

I am not sure which sable female is the one I liked ... she got a 93 score ... but they were not announcing the dogs names so unfortunately I have no clue.


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## bocron

I will say that after close to 18 years being married to a helper and being involved in Schutzhund, most of what I thought I understood at the beginning I really had no idea what it really indicated (if that makes any sense). 
For example the blind search doesn't really prove the dog's ability to play hide and seek by looking in that particular blind as much as it is proving the dog will go check an area he knows the bad guy *isn't* hiding. Any dog worth it's salt knows what blind the bad guy is in the second it steps on the field, the indicator is that you can get the dog to check out the other places despite what they already know. As we have done police work training and schutzhund work it is easier to see the overall picture. Kind of like wax on/wax off in the karate kid, you are doing an activity that will mean something else altogether if you ever actually are on the street. Having a dog that will check the 3 rooms prior to the room where he can hear someone breathing heavily or smell them is a needed skill. So yes the dog isn't actually "looking" in the blind but is performing the action the handler asks despite the fact that his "reward" is obviously not where he's being told to search. When doing actual police work with this skill, the dog may find a significant piece of evidence prior to indicating on the bad guy.

Having said that, I will also say that I have seen plenty of dogs trained like it is a choreographed broadway musical and the dog is turning in a performance. At our club we make an effort to NEVER train a pattern, we want the dog to exhibit the skills as part of a thinking team, not a trained circus dog. We have had judges change things around at the last minute (totally their prerogative if the situation calls for it) and have seen some handlers absolutely fall apart and even argue with a judge about changing a "pattern" even slightly.


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## carmspack

I stole a few minutes to attend what was left of the Regional trials. Unfortunately the events that would have been of highest interest , the schutzhund working portion , now called IPO (?) was held over Fri and Sat . So I learned that Paul Dyer , former OPP canine officer, laid the track. He's had experience with my dogs through his department and currently has one that is his work dog . 
So , comments to the OP . Had you gone to the show you would have seen a collection of WGSL dogs , all black and tan/red . They were true to the show type but without exaggerations . By this I mean that there is a physical template which is not the same as the "common" physical type of a working dog , which by the way requires correct conformation to perform with efficiency and endurance.
Bernd Lierberg , to my mind , represents a physical ideal.
Not leaving you without an illustration , here look at this dog V Drago vom Patriot - German Shepherd Dog working lines !!! 
The show line dogs had no resemblance to this structure.
The dogs were beautifully presented -- but honestly I was surprised at the lack of substance coming through from muscle. Very narrow pelvis, very close in the hind , standing or moving . Deep through the chest , but narrow . Impression was of a wedge shape in the drop from whither to croup , not so much the level topline . A dog who is moving all day does need good lung capacity. A dog, GSD, needing to exert its authority to control a wayward sheep , or an intruder , needs some physical power behind it . Let's compare paper then, tissue paper versus card stock , that kind of difference when it comes to substance.
Over other years the dogs seemed to be better socialized . There was one young dog who had issues with dogs passing by . The dog would lunge out . The person in charge put out a good effort to change the behaviour , so credit there . Still there were reactive dogs but no where near what I had seen in years past . 
Now I have to say the portion that I saw was about as benign as life can be - a picnic on a real nice day . I did not see any of these dogs in work or under threat or stress or need to perform , which may change things entirely. So I might say they were better "dogs" but not necessarily better GSD. Make sense? 
So with that marked as an improvement on the take-away side of the sheet I would say the dogs were "less" . There is just something in the spirit missing. 

The dog that really caught my eye is a recent German import Fee vom Patriot Fee vom Patriot - working-dog.eu . She had the devil in her eye , good engagement with the handler, totally neutral to admirers , took pressure and showed her drive for the kong on the rope , PLUS , her structure and substance was impressive. She is owned by Jurgen Fischer . Jurgen also owns and competed with a Belgian import male . Ivo von der Daelenberghütte - working-dog.eu 

The judging . Very liberal use of SG's . I don't think anyone got anything less . One female , with great movement , was clearly anxious about being in the ring. The judge made comment that she was unhappy, did not want to be there (while the dog is trying to exit the ring) , said there is more to the dog that the insides need to be considered --- but her conformation was good and so was the movement. I am wondering if she had been confident if she may have held a first rather than the third or four that she did . I believe she was a 3 and did get a trophy. 
But why not demote her to a G , with the words , come back and earn that SG when she presents better?

oh well ...........

Carmen 
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

additional comments -- very obvious decline in entries and in spectators . When I was running in those shows there would be 20 plus dogs per group. Sometimes the entries would be split in two. After running as a group a few times , the judge would divide the group into two , one against the ropes, the inner group running , and then vice versa . Entries so crowded better moving dogs could not help but run up the rear or partially move ahead of the dog in front . This time , not . Spectators . Years prior , hard to get a good ringside spot to have a look because you'd have to position yourself to see between two or three sets of shoulders in front of you. This time - no problem -- basically clear ringside where ever you look.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## bocron

carmspack said:


> Not leaving you without an illustration , here look at this dog V Drago vom Patriot - German Shepherd Dog working lines !!!
> The show line dogs had no resemblance to this structure.
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


Wow, glad to hear you've seen this dog and like him in person. He's been saved in my PDB favorites for some time. I liked his pedigree and overall look and have him as a possible stud prospect should I ever decide to breed my current girl (still a youngster). Not likely as I'm not a breeder, just a pipe dream most likely .


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## carmspack

but it is a demanding test for any dog and few are able to pass successfully. Some the traits and characteristics tested are:

Strong desire to work
Courage
Intelligence
Trainability
Strong bond to the handler
Perseverance
Protective Instinct
IPO tests for these traits. It also tests for physical traits such as strength, endurance, agility, and scenting ability. The goal of IPO is to illuminate the character and ability of a dog through training. Breeders can use this insight to determine how and whether to use the dog in producing the next generation of working dogs,,,,,,,,,,,

from a Linda Shaw blog --- The breed doesn’t need prettier show dogs. It needs stronger dogs – physically, constitutionally, structurally, mentally, immunologically and genetically

three parter - in full Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

I have not seen Drago in person, which I could . I used him as an example of the Bernd type structure . Same could be said , as a body type of "Tim" and more so his brother "Falco" Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs (first dog on left) , who are sons of a carmspack female and Linda's very competent american lines bred male.

I did see Fee vom Patriot. This is a kennel that I like for what they produce .


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## carmspack

here are the unofficial results Unofficial Results | 2012 Ontario Regional IPO Championship / Show / Breed Survey


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## Liesje

OP if you don't "get" the protection phase (which I think is a fair statement) I would go watch some _training_. Everyone always says to go watch trials to learn about dogs and the sport and while I agree that watching trials is better than nothing or armchair training based on YouTube videos, where I personally learned what protection is really about and how to respect and appreciate the dogs, helpers, and handlers was in _training_. Someone like myself will train a dog for two years and someone like yourself might drag yourself out of bed to observe my dog for all of 3 minutes. I do not take offense to your observations and many of them are valid but also I'm not really going to put much stake in what someone says based on a very short observation of what is essentially a routine. If you don't understand it enough to really appreciate what is going on (and what is supposed to be happening), stop out at some clubs and watch the training. There you will see what is really in the dog.


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## W.Oliver

Sunflowers said:


> I guess that is why Hans's breeder made me sign a contract that guaranteed his temperament only if I don't do protection work.


 
Isn't that like guaranteeing the temperament of an Irish Setter only if you don't hunt birds?


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## Wolfgeist

Liesje said:


> OP if you don't "get" the protection phase (which I think is a fair statement) I would go watch some _training_. Everyone always says to go watch trials to learn about dogs and the sport and while I agree that watching trials is better than nothing or armchair training based on YouTube videos, where I personally learned what protection is really about and how to respect and appreciate the dogs, helpers, and handlers was in _training_. Someone like myself will train a dog for two years and someone like yourself might drag yourself out of bed to observe my dog for all of 3 minutes. I do not take offense to your observations and many of them are valid but also I'm not really going to put much stake in what someone says based on a very short observation of what is essentially a routine. If you don't understand it enough to really appreciate what is going on (and what is supposed to be happening), stop out at some clubs and watch the training. There you will see what is really in the dog.


:thumbup:


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## wildo

carmspack said:


> Some the traits and characteristics tested are:
> 
> Strong desire to work
> Courage
> Intelligence
> Trainability
> Strong bond to the handler
> Perseverance
> Protective Instinct
> IPO tests for these traits. It also tests for physical traits such as strength, endurance, agility, and scenting ability.http://www.carmspack.com


I'm really curious how Schutzhund tests agility in a dog. Sure- I can imagine there is a _bit_ of agility in nice tight turns around the blinds in the search, but I'm not thinking of much else. 

Oh wait- sorry, I totally forgot about the obedience portion. I assume you're referring to the a-frame and high jump? I suppose that is a basic test of agility, true.


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## Vaks

I remember the first visit to schutzhund competitions. I did not understand, I found the dogs out of control, crazy, excited ... I said : I never would have a dog like that.

But we have learned about the sport. We learned to observe and better understand.

and now I also practice the schutzhund sport 

Hélène


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## Chris Wild

Willy,

You would be surprised at how many dogs, GSDs included, have a hard time clearing a meter jump from a close sitting position a few feet away, carrying something in their mouth. Same for getting over the a-frame. It's sad, but it's true that there are many dogs with supposedly "correct" structure that have difficulty with that.

The ability to go from 0-60 in a split second, target and launch when moving at full speed, and stop on a dime from a full run, are also tested several times throughout the routine.


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## Chris Wild

Liesje said:


> OP if you don't "get" the protection phase (which I think is a fair statement) I would go watch some _training_. Everyone always says to go watch trials to learn about dogs and the sport and while I agree that watching trials is better than nothing or armchair training based on YouTube videos, where I personally learned what protection is really about and how to respect and appreciate the dogs, helpers, and handlers was in _training_. Someone like myself will train a dog for two years and someone like yourself might drag yourself out of bed to observe my dog for all of 3 minutes. I do not take offense to your observations and many of them are valid but also I'm not really going to put much stake in what someone says based on a very short observation of what is essentially a routine. If you don't understand it enough to really appreciate what is going on (and what is supposed to be happening), stop out at some clubs and watch the training. There you will see what is really in the dog.


Couldn't have said it better!


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## wildo

Chris Wild said:


> Willy,
> 
> You would be surprised at how many dogs, GSDs included, have a hard time clearing a meter jump from a close sitting position a few feet away, carrying something in their mouth. Same for getting over the a-frame. It's sad, but it's true that there are many dogs with supposedly "correct" structure that have difficulty with that.
> 
> The ability to go from 0-60 in a split second, target and launch, stop on a dime, are also tested several times throughout the routine.


Oh- I don't doubt that one bit! I'm sure there are plenty of _agility_ dogs (I define as those actively competing in the sport of agility) that would have a hard time clearing a meter jump- probably my own dog included. 

I guess the thing that caught me off guard is my own bias towards the sport of agility, and the athleticism displayed. Sometimes it's overwhelming to watch those dogs in slow motion- a true display of athleticism... If I could somehow "see" that in Schutzhund, I would be very curious indeed to learn how!! That skill would absolutely help me in my future puppy selection, no question!


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## Chris Wild

I do think a dog's agility is tested about as well as going through a bunch of jumps only shoulder high and walking across things. It's just a different way of doing it and with less repetition.


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## Chris Wild

Well, except balance and surefootedness. Those aren't tested in SchH.


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## GatorDog

wildo said:


> Oh- I don't doubt that one bit! I'm sure there are plenty of _agility_ dogs (I define as those actively competing in the sport of agility) that would have a hard time clearing a meter jump- probably my own dog included.
> 
> I guess the thing that caught me off guard is my own bias towards the sport of agility, and the athleticism displayed. Sometimes it's overwhelming to watch those dogs in slow motion- a true display of athleticism... If I could somehow "see" that in Schutzhund, I would be very curious indeed to learn how!! That skill would absolutely help me in my future puppy selection, no question!


Watching some slow motion videos of a dog on a long bite really display true athleticism to me. To be able to run at full speed down the full length of the field, target the sleeve, launch, grip, and then maintain that grip at their body is torqued pretty much in the complete opposite direction by the helper, is breathtaking to me. And it takes training to teach the dog how to properly execute that task.

I have posted some of the pictures of Aiden's jump for the IPO1 obedience portion, and it still amazes me to actually see the jump in a still frame like that. A meter jump is pretty high and there are plenty of dogs that just can't get up and over. 










I think he's pretty agile.


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## wildo

Well- I have no intention on steering this conversation to a "this sport is better than that sport" conversation. I agree that there is _athleticism_ displayed in Schutzhund- most definitely. But I think that there is little agility displayed- at least not what I consider agility: which is hardly a minimized view of "a bunch of jumps only shoulder high and walking across things." I would agree that this minimized view is probably not much different than my own minimized view of agility displayed in SchH, and is interestingly common amongst people who have never actually done agility (not that I'm saying Chris hasn't- I have no idea if she has or not).


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## pfitzpa1

dzg said:


> Thanks for your candid responses.
> 
> Please note that I am not making any judgements, I simply shared my observations/thoughts (without filtering or political correctness) and I asked many sincere questions.
> 
> Nor am I disparaging the effort of the handlers/trainers. I applaud their dedication to their activity.
> 
> Also I value a highly biddable dog and one with a calmer nature so maybe this colours my observations?
> 
> When I said "_I don't get Schutzhund_" - let me explain ... I was under the impression that one of the utility aspects of protection phase is to test "courage" .... but these dogs train in schutzhund clubs with similar/same setup so dog knows handler will not hurt him, dog knows the environment, knows what to expect ... so is it really test of courage? I don't think so.
> 
> I missed the tracking phase on friday and I missed the obedience part on early Saturday (I was lazy to get out of bed - yes I'm lazy human) .... this would have been more my interest and probably alot more utility so I really regret missing it .... so what I should say is "_I don't get the protection phase of schutzhund_".
> Thats probably more fair statement.


Schutzhund is basically a Breeding Suitability test, nothing more. A dog in not expected to be trained for protection just because they have passed SCh 1,2 or 3. Schutzhund bite work is "basically" useless in a real protection environment, just as schutzhund tracking is basically useless for real "perp" tracking purposes. The purpose of Schutzhund as far as I am aware is to indicate the suitability of a dog for breeding purposes. 

Aside from being an enjoyable activity for both owner and dog.


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## Liesje

Schutzhund is not agility and agility is not Schutzhund. Well duh, but, they're not the same so they can't really be compared using traits that might be a priority for one but not the other. Having done both SchH and agility (done both with more than one dog each), I think SchH tests agility in ways that agility people might not notice, and vice versa. I often cringe when I see SchH people training the A-frame or the jump, a lot of what they are doing is really counter-productive. The number one mistake I see is people constantly moving farther *back* from the jump insisting that the dog needs more room to get up to speed to clear the jump. No, if the dog can do the jump properly then he can do it from a platz/down position directly in front of it and clear it. Speed and drive in the buildup are not going to compensate for bad technique and usually exacerbate it. At the same time I don't think agility people appreciate what goes into, say, training a really tight, fast pickup on the retrieves. I have an entire setup of equipment I use exclusively for the pickup of the formal retrieves. An agility person probably would never think twice about training the pickup of the dumbbell as a specific exercise and how to execute a tight, fast, safe turn. Likewise I find SchH people don't appreciate proper jumping foundation, contacts, 2x2 weaves, etc. Having done both I have taken several methods and carried them over. I do contact training for agility which keeps my dogs safe on the a-frame (not leaping off the top). The jumping technique absolutely carries over and I do not believe it matters that my dog runs 24" in agility and jumps 1m in Schutzhund; either the technique is there or its not. A lot of the shaping, marking, and rewarding I do in Schutzhund obedience also carries over into how I train agility obstacles and how the dog is rewarded doing longer sequences.

I guess this gets back to my original point to the OP - you really can't know what it takes until you at least observe (or better yet participate in) the training that goes into something like Schutzhund or agility. Titles are not earned by doing trial routines or clean runs but the years of work it takes to get to that point.


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## wildo

Lies- that was very helpful, and exactly what I was hoping Carmen could elaborate on in her post about agility in SchH work. I totally agree- I didn't even consider a tight, fast turn on the retrieve equating to a nice jump wrap in agility or anything like that. Thanks for the insight! I wonder if there are more subtle examples like that...


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## Liesje

I think some of the older exercises tested agility better than both modern SchH and agility. Broad jumps that were like 10 feet wide, scaling walls, jump sequences. SDA has a jump/a-frame sequence but it's really not that hard (though every time I watch a trial more than half of the dogs refuse).


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## lhczth

SchH/IPO is a test of aptitude, nothing more, nothing less. It tests for agility, but it is not the sport of agility. The tracking may not be practical, but it is a good foundation for real scent work. The same with the protection phase (depending on how it is trained). Watching one trial with obvious prejudice really isn't a good way to evaluate SchH/IPO.


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## wildo

Wait now- you guys keep saying that SchH is an aptitude test only. That seems completely untrue to me. We _consistently_ hear on this forum of people breeding "sport dogs" for the _sport_ of Schutzhund. It is absolutely more than an aptitude test for those competing at a high level (and may still be considered more than an aptitude test for those _not_ competing at a high level). And perhaps those "sport dogs" may not exhibit the traits and temperament one might expect of the 'perfect GSD von Stephanitz envisioned' we read about on here. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I started a thread very similar to the OPs after the Working Dog Championships a month ago.

Someone's opinion on what they see, comprehend, process, and evaluate with their own eyes and brain doesn't have to be "obvious prejudice." It's just an opinion based on their current life experiences and knowledge.


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## lhczth

The basic premise of SchH/IPO is an aptitude test. It is not police work. It is not SAR. It was never meant to be. Yes, it may also be very real for those at the top as a sport, but that does not change its intent. 

I love SchH/IPO, but I am also fully aware of its intent, its strengths and its weaknesses. 

No, maybe not.......


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## pfitzpa1

wildo said:


> Wait now- you guys keep saying that SchH is an aptitude test only. That seems completely untrue to me. We _consistently_ hear on this forum of people breeding "sport dogs" for the _sport_ of Schutzhund. It is absolutely more than an aptitude test for those competing at a high level (and may still be considered more than an aptitude test for those _not_ competing at a high level). And perhaps those "sport dogs" may not exhibit the traits and temperament one might expect of the 'perfect GSD von Stephanitz envisioned' we read about on here. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I started a thread very similar to the OPs after the Working Dog Championships a month ago.
> 
> Someone's opinion on what they see, comprehend, process, and evaluate with their own eyes and brain doesn't have to be "obvious prejudice." It's just an opinion based on their current life experiences and knowledge.



Define sport, is Figure Skating a sport? I know lots of people will argue both sides. IMO as long as there is objective grading/testing then it is a sport. 

Whatever the final intent is, if you are actively training and trialing then it is a sport IMO.

It is also different than "agility" in sense that the competition is with oneself and not against other dogs in the same trial. There is no 1st, 2nd 3rd place in Sch, just a score that you and your dog get. The competition aspect is to attain the best possible score for you and your dog as a team. Often folk will retake their SCH tests just to obtain better scores (BTW if you fail the test trying to do that, you lose your previously obtained title). It's not about beating the other guys score.


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## bocron

Schutzhund is a breed worthy test that has evolved into a sport at some levels. Believe me, many of the dogs you see at club level events could do very well in a regional or national trial but the owner has no interest in that. As a matter of fact, my husband qualified for the nationals more than once, he went the first time as his club paid his way and he was psyched to go. After that he never went again, it was just not his thing and he had the title and felt no need to repeat it except for fun at a local trial. We had a few that we titled just so we could follow up for a koer rating. I know of quite a few people around here that have similar feelings about trials. They are out there to see how their dogs do and could care less about any score but their own. For us (at that time) we were working with a number of police departments and my husband titled the dogs for a kkl rating for breeding. 
I always think of the Scottish Highland games when I think of Schutzhund for some reason. The competitions at the games are based in functional activities for the people of those areas, for example the sheaf toss in the games is way more stylized, but still the person has to toss a sheaf of wheat over a pole that gets set at various heights. Of course this is to mimic stocking a barn with wheat or hay to feed livestock. I doubt that actual farm workers worry about how they would "score" when tossing the sheaf. 
Does a dog that scores the absolute highest guarantee it will produce puppies that will do the same, no, but I still want the pup out of the dogs that show the ability is there and I'm not sure anyone has found a way for the GSD enthusiast to exhibit that other than an actual working dog or a test such as a schutzhund trial. Just like most of us don't have access to a herd of sheep or cattle to prove our dog has herding ability, we can participate in a sport that will hopefully show what we are looking for within a fairly structured venue.


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## wildo

pfitzpa1 said:


> Schutzhund is basically a Breeding Suitability test, nothing more.





pfitzpa1 said:


> Whatever the final intent is, if you are actively training, competing and trialing then it is a sport IMO.


Sorry- I'm not following... So are you saying it _is_ something more than a breeding test? Or are you simply saying it's both? I think the perception that it is both is dangerous because how do you judge? For 'sport dogs' they may be judged over the top- and for 'breed test' dogs, they may be judged lackluster.


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## wildo

BTW- I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything- I'm truly curious about this stuff. I'm very interested in SchH but completely on the fence about ever training/trialing in it. As a "breed worthiness test," I'd be quite interested. As a sport- I'm not sure. The problem as I see it (and this is admittedly _complete_ lack of understanding on my part) is that SchH can't be half trained... Say one gets into it, starts training bite work, and then decides they just aren't into it any longer-- now they have a dog who is only half trained in bitework. That seems like a liability. So I really am interested in learning; I'm not trying to rock the boat-- only get real info.


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## bocron

wildo said:


> BTW- I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or anything- I'm truly curious about this stuff. I'm very interested in SchH but completely on the fence about ever training/trialing in it. As a "breed worthiness test," I'd be quite interested. As a sport- I'm not sure. The problem as I see it (and this is admittedly _complete_ lack of understanding on my part) is that SchH can't be half trained... Say one gets into it, starts training bite work, and then decides they just aren't into it any longer-- now they have a dog who is only half trained in bitework. That seems like a liability. So I really am interested in learning; I'm not trying to rock the boat-- only get real info.


Like I said, the club level trials are a different ballgame altogether. Around here for years you would see the same half dozen breeders out there trailing at club trials. Even if they had scores that qualified them to go on to the regionals they just didn't. The kkl was their brass ring.

As to going only halfway in bite work, that totally depends on how you train it. If the dog is being trained out of fear/defense (and yes, there are clubs who work from that point exclusively) then a partially trained dog can be a liability. They will probably view most things as a threat and need to continue on to the advanced control work to be reliable for most. That would be a judgement call on your part, learning to read your dog while he is learning the skills is a big part of it.


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## Liesje

The final product, the Schutzhund trial, is a set of routines, an aptitude test. However the training is what you/I/anyone individually makes of it. I go to Schutzhund training and rarely to any part of the routine. Both my dogs have been working on protection stuff outside of a blind. We are not working on blind searches or fancy call-outs or perfectly clean outs. We are building drive and power and aggression in the dogs. Trials are for showing off the exercises in the routine. Training is where we try to bring out and empower the dog we know is in there whether we are using components of a trial routine or not. The foundation is what takes so long to get right; the actual trial routine stuff can be put together pretty quickly. For example if someone told me I had to trial Pan in IPO1 protection in two weeks I'm sure he could pass even though we've never actually done a pickup in the blind and have only done two outs in the open. If the dog is half-decent and the foundation work is good then it all falls into place for a trial, but a trial is not going to exhibit all of the fun stuff you did in training. You'll see all the dogs do the same stuff, you won't see Nikon biting on a police suit rolling around in hay in the barn but that is what we did *in training*. 

I love to TRAIN, period. I would still drive three hours each way to Schutzhund club if trials did not exist (heck this is the first time in years I've been training with a club that actually *has* trials, none of my previous clubs were affiliated and thus could not hold trials but we trained together sometimes 2-3 times a week).



> Say one gets into it, starts training bite work, and then decides they just aren't into it any longer-- now they have a dog who is only half trained in bitework. That seems like a liability.


Not really. A dog is what it is. Schutzhund only brings out what is there, it doesn't create drive or create aggression. It's sort of like basic physics, you cannot create matter but you can manipulate it. Schutzhund taps into the aspects of temperament that are *supposed* to be present in the GSD but if they aren't there, the dog will wash out. If the dog is unstable, the helpers and club should step in and insist the dog wash out.


For me he figure skating comparison doesn't work. In skating, or my sport gymnastics, you get to create your own routine that plays to your strengths and avoids your weaknesses. In SchH it's actually kind of boring at times (I'd rather train than trial and like trials where everyone brings their dogs out to train afterward). The routine is always the same. Wouldn't it be cool if we got to show off our dogs' protection work and got to choose the exercises!


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## pfitzpa1

wildo said:


> Sorry- I'm not following... So are you saying it _is_ something more than a breeding test? Or are you simply saying it's both? I think the perception that it is both is dangerous because how do you judge? For 'sport dogs' they may be judged over the top- and for 'breed test' dogs, they may be judged lackluster.


I'm saying that folding origami and submitting it into a competition is "sport", tossing dwarves is also classed as a "sport". Being classed as a sport has nothing to do with how it is judged. The judging in Sch is intended to determine a dogs aptitide, temperament and ultimately suitability for working or breeding.

Wikipedia has a good page on it and has one note that may help clarify things.

"Most police departments do not allow their working dogs to breed. This is also true of many other organizations that use working dogs. The breeding stock for these working dogs is Schutzhund dogs. Without Schutzhund, the working ability of GSDs and other working breeds would quickly deteriorate and it would be difficult to find suitable dogs for police work, bomb detection, or search and rescue."


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## lhczth

Some people are happy just earning the titles for their own sense of achievement or for breeding. Some people care about the scores and do this for competition. The judging is the same though as one progresses in levels of competition from club trial to world event the judging, obviously, because much stricter. Personally I wish more people would be happy with just earning the titles and not be so worried about the scores at the club level. Then there wouldn't be so many complaints about judges with sharp pencils and "this isn't the Nationals" comments.

If you are interested in SchH only as a breed test, personally, I would be doing the AWD titles instead (although they don't count if you want to breed survey your dog) or at least the AWD1.


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## lhczth

Liesje said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if we got to show off our dogs' protection work and got to choose the exercises!


Deja would say, "we don't need no stinking side transport".   Of course way too many handlers would avoid the exercises that show their dog's weaknesses like re-attacks, drives, stick hits and outing.


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## Liesje

Well maybe if we could do the exercises with our own flair?  I would have Nikon do th transports like they do in ring, with the dog contact-heeling backwards. That's his preferred position for the side transport :crazy:


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## lhczth

:rofl: I think Deja would prefer that position too.


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## Liesje

You know, now that I think on it....I think Nikon's SchH1 was the *only* time he actually did a "side transport". We had an out-of-sight-out-of-mind mentality regarding that exercise in training.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> Deja would say, "we don't need no stinking side transport".  Of course way too many handlers would avoid the exercises that show their dog's weaknesses like *re-attacks, drives, stick hits* and outing.


And that is all Karlo would want to do, he wouldn't be into the obedience side of it all...though he outs just fine.


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## carmspack

to observe my dog for all of 3 minutes. I do not take offense to your observations and many of them are valid but also I'm not really going to put much stake in what someone says based on a very short observation of what is essentially a routine. If you don't understand it enough to really appreciate what is going on (and what is supposed to be happening), stop out at some clubs and watch the training. There you will see what is really in the dog. 
__________________
should the judge stop out at the club to watch the training to see what is really in the dog ?

This was not a club trial . This was the Regionals from where representives are chosen to go to Nationals, then Worlds. Showcase of some of the better competitors . This is an event open to the public and the public no matter how well or ill informed will make quick decisions.


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## Liesje

The judge knows what to look for and why and is there to award points and placements, while the OP is offering a running commentary on the protection phase while admittedly not "getting" it. My reaction was based on the general attitude toward Schutzhund protection and not the OP's comments on specific performances. I wasn't there so I have no idea who did well, who was embarrassing, etc.


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## onyx'girl

The Regionals will weed out the weaker teams from moving up.
I think much of what people see at trials showcases the training technique and many dogs aren't pressured enough at training to work through some of the issues that may come up during a trial....but trial nerves on the handler and the dog will make or break a routine. 

I think most of the OPs observations are ones that a seasoned person would critique.
The reactivity in vehicles is pretty normal, go to any venue(agility or conformation and dogs will bark when you pass their crate...it isn't exclusive to IPO! 

Where I train many dogs are reactive while crated in their vehicle, the handler will correct them as we don't want this to bother the neighbors, and it will shape the younger dogs to know this isn't acceptable. 
Some dogs are lower threshold and go off easily so always a work in progress.

The sleeve focus , not outing are training issues, and obviously weren't addressed. 
Many people use electric while training and at trial you can't of course, the dogs know when they are plugged in. That is when you may see things fall apart. So many facets to work on!

If I don't trial, I don't see what I need to work on. So even if I fail, I know that I tried, and where we are in our training. They don't call it a "trial" for nothing!!
Dogs are not perfect robots and neither are the handlers.


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## GatorDog

onyx'girl said:


> The Regionals will weed out the weaker teams from moving up.
> I think much of what people see at trials showcases the training technique and many dogs aren't pressured enough at training to work through some of the issues that may come up during a trial....but trial nerves on the handler and the dog will make or break a routine.
> 
> I think most of the OPs observations are ones that a seasoned person would critique.
> The reactivity in vehicles is pretty normal, go to any venue(agility or conformation and dogs will bark when you pass their crate...it isn't exclusive to IPO!
> 
> Where I train many dogs are reactive while crated in their vehicle, the handler will correct them as we don't want this to bother the neighbors, and it will shape the younger dogs to know this isn't acceptable.
> Some dogs are lower threshold and go off easily so always a work in progress.
> 
> The sleeve focus , not outing are training issues, and obviously weren't addressed.
> Many people use electric while training and at trial you can't of course, the dogs know when they are plugged in. That is when you may see things fall apart. So many facets to work on!
> 
> If I don't trial, I don't see what I need to work on. So even if I fail, I know that I tried, and where we are in our training. They don't call it a "trial" for nothing!!
> _ Dogs are not perfect robots and neither are the handlers._



Perfect, perfect, perfect! :thumbup:


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## cliffson1

The sleeve focus CAN be a training issue, with many dogs today it isn't.


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## carmspack

Wido -
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  

_Some the traits and characteristics tested are: 

Strong desire to work
Courage
Intelligence
Trainability
Strong bond to the handler
Perseverance
Protective Instinct
IPO tests for these traits. It also tests for physical traits such as strength, endurance, agility, and scenting ability._

_Was not a list that I created. It came in full from the web site of the Ontario regionals IPO Trial | 2012 Ontario Regional IPO Championship / Show / Breed Survey_

_so then "agility" which you reference as your sport which tests agility , and directability, is defined as "*Agility* or nimbleness is the ability to change the body's position efficiently, and requires the integration of isolated movement skills using a combination of balance, coordination, speed, reflexes, strength,and endurance.Agility is the ability to change the direction of the body in an efficient and effective manner and to achieve this you require a combination of:_
_Balance The ability to maintain equilibrium when stationary or moving (i.e. not to fall over) through the coordinated actions of our sensory functions (eyes, ears and the proprioceptive organs in our joints) Static Balance - ability to retain the centre of mass above the base of support in a stationary position Dynamic Balance - ability to maintain balance with body movement Speed the ability to move all or part of the body quickly Strength the ability of a muscle or muscle group to overcome a resistance Co-ordination the ability to control the movement of the body in co-operation with the body's sensory functions e.g. catching a ball (ball, hand and eye co-ordination)_
_In sports, agility is often defined in terms of an individual sport, due to it being an integration of many components each used differently (specific to all of sorts of different sports). Sheppard and Young (2006) defined agility as "a rapid whole body movement with change of velocity or direction in response to a stimulus." _

_In the context of IPO (schutzhund) or any working dog application , agility would mean can the dog MANEUVER. _
_There has to be good working structure , ligaments, musculature , ability to be toned and freedom from disabling problems (dysplasia) . Speed, reflexes, depth perception , daring . The von Stephanitz book shows several examples of GSD scaling garden walls, flying over fences and broad ditches, going up ladders, balancing on narrow and unstable footing --- requiring agility._
_I have seen pictures of DDR dogs scaling 10 and 11 foot walls, including Lord Gleisdreieck who throws himself at a palisade (8 foot?) like some leaping lizard. 



__







_

_._
The German Shepherd Dog is a strong, agile, well-muscled dog, alert and full of life. 


Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

IF schutzhund is meant as a breed suitability test then is there not a point where you can no longer offer yourself for testing. How many times are you allowed to fail??
At some point it is left to LUCK.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## onyx'girl

Well if you never try, you never know? I don't think 'allowing to fail' is going to get a team far, but sometimes extremes play into trialing. Though those are all just excuses, right? 

I'll not be breeding my dog that I am training in the sport, so for me it is not about getting titles for breeding. It is about my handling and training skills that make my poor dog shine with the lack of my handling and training skills.


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## wildo

That was an awesome video; it's the first time I've seen a GSD scale a wall like that. Lord appears to defy gravity in that jump, and wow- only one stride! I think it's very impressive.


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## carmspack

A frames didn't used to have all those horizontal bars for the dog to "walk" up . Dog's used to take a flying leap and land at the top 1/3 . I did those palisades with my male Kilo in French ring Campagne - vertical wall 7.5 feet. Broad or Long jump can be 14 feet with possible call off . 
Lord has physical confidence and heart .


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## phgsd

Terrible video but here is Kessy jumping about 6' like it's nothing...


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## wolfstraum

never saw that video of Lord before....thanks Carmen......Kyra was 2-5,5 on Lord and would jump up anything - like she was a bird! Her vet was absolutely amazed that she would easily jump on an exam table at 10 years old

Lee


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## Sunflowers

I watched in fascination. 

Are there dogs from this sire's line, currently, that can do that?
What kennels breed descendants of Lord's? And how long did he live?


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## Liesje

I like a lot of things about Lord. My Kenya is a Lord great-grand-daughter. She is small and agile and a super tracker. I remember right before I went to pick her up (I adopted her from her breeder as an adult dog) the breeder e-mailed me saying that Kenya had jumped a 13' retaining wall trying to follow her but was just fine.


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## Sunflowers

Liesje said:


> I like a lot of things about Lord. My Kenya is a Lord great-grand-daughter. She is small and agile and a super tracker. I remember right before I went to pick her up (I adopted her from her breeder as an adult dog) the breeder e-mailed me saying that Kenya had jumped a 13' retaining wall trying to follow her but was just fine.


Goodness. I need info on where to find some Lord descendants.
I just decided about my next dog I will be getting in about 5 years.


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## Chris Wild

Lord is in a lot of working line pedigrees. But there is a lot to Lord beyond his jumping ability. And frankly his jumping ability while impressive, isn't unique. It was the standard in his day, and not something that the majority of sound GSDs of good structure (I mean utilitarian structure, not show ring structure) today couldn't accomplish.

My point is, I wouldn't be basing my search for a dog based on a video of a dog jumping.


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## Sunflowers

Chris Wild said:


> I wouldn't be basing my search for a dog based on a video of a dog jumping.


Yes, dog jumping video as a basis would be ridiculous.
I read a lot on this thread.  

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/148295-lord-vom-gleisdreieck-pedigree.html

When the time comes, I am sure everyone here can help me find a great companion for our family and Hans.


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## dzg

I posed several valid questions, no real answers in all of 8 pages, just lots of defensive posturing. 

Its funny how the defenders harp on about my admittance of "not getting it" ... take that comment out of context as I explained VERY clearly exactly what I didn't get it .... but choose to ignore my pointed questions. How convenient.

Yes I only saw 3 mins of each dog for 2 hours that morning, doesn't invalidate my observations or questions. 
Or is it better not to ask? 

If you need to scream at a dog that is 5 feet away from you at the top of your lungs to AUS ... and this is the result of the countless hours of training then training isi not really working is it? 
Or do I need to spend hours observing training at a club to realize that actually that dog not outing is actually a good sign?

Yeah ok pass me the Kool-Aid, grape flavour please.

How biting a sleeve in an environment where a dog knows it is no real danger (through all its weekly training) determines courage is so illogical its not even worth considering. but of-couse no one even tried to answer that question - too obvious eh?)

Please don't defend "reactivity" in dogs, there is no justification for reactivity, none whatsoever, and its not a breed requirement either. Thats an example of weak nerves and low thresholds and dogs like that shouldn't be bred and are a liability.

How posting valid observations, 7 pages later is suddenly labelled as a "critique" is ridiculous. I'm nto scared to post what I actually think instead of what I think people would like to me think.

Perhaps the posters who tell me to keep an open mind should follow their own advice?? (but I suppose that'd be too much to ask?)

Its the last time I post on this forum, one comes here to learn but it seems people need to crow the chorus and not toe the line. 

Even the Ontario guide dog association wants nothing to do with the breed ..... perception is 99% of the battle ....


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## Wolfgeist

dzg said:


> I posed several valid questions, no real answers in all of 8 pages, just lots of defensive posturing.
> 
> Its funny how the defenders harp on about my admittance of "not getting it" ... take that comment out of context as I explained VERY clearly exactly what I didn't get it .... but choose to ignore my pointed questions. How convenient.
> 
> Yes I only saw 3 mins of each dog for 2 hours that morning, doesn't invalidate my observations or questions.
> Or is it better not to ask?
> 
> If you need to scream at a dog that is 5 feet away from you at the top of your lungs to AUS ... and this is the result of the countless hours of training then training isi not really working is it?
> Or do I need to spend hours observing training at a club to realize that actually that dog not outing is actually a good sign?
> 
> Yeah ok pass me the Kool-Aid, grape flavour please.
> 
> How biting a sleeve in an environment where a dog knows it is no real danger (through all its weekly training) determines courage is so illogical its not even worth considering. but of-couse no one even tried to answer that question - too obvious eh?)
> 
> Please don't defend "reactivity" in dogs, there is no justification for reactivity, none whatsoever, and its not a breed requirement either. Thats an example of weak nerves and low thresholds and dogs like that shouldn't be bred and are a liability.
> 
> How posting valid observations, 7 pages later is suddenly labelled as a "critique" is ridiculous. I'm nto scared to post what I actually think instead of what I think people would like to me think.
> 
> Perhaps the posters who tell me to keep an open mind should follow their own advice?? (but I suppose that'd be too much to ask?)
> 
> Its the last time I post on this forum, one comes here to learn but it seems people need to crow the chorus and not toe the line.
> 
> Even the Ontario guide dog association wants nothing to do with the breed ..... perception is 99% of the battle ....


Your opinion versus everyone else's opinion. You have to deal with people disagreeing you with, and having their own opinions when you post on a public forum. Welcome to reality.


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## cliffson1

Whoa Dzg,
Not everyone drinks the kool-aid. Your points were very valid and most point to the "sport" of Sch/IPO. I have brought out many of your same points, and endured the chagrin of others, but it doesn't bother me and it doesn't change what is!!! 
Yes many of the sport people are very defensive about the sport as show people are very defensive about shows. They are quick to point out the positives and slow to acknowledge the negatives(one of the reasons both are producing the dogs we see today). Frankly, I think Shows and Trials have very valuable positives for our breed, BEFORE they morphed into competitions and accolades. It used to be about the dogs, now its about trainers/owners accomplishments. This comes with a price as the show ring has become restricted by artificial means and the trial field has become a sea of choreography. This is not in all cases, but enough so that you saw what you saw at the Regionals and it isn't atypical. 
i don't think you should leave as there are people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge if you truly want to learn, but you must endure the pack mentality....after all it is dogs we are dealing with....lol


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## holland

:laugh:


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## GSDElsa

Some of your observations are what bugs a lot of people. Sleeve focused, drive-leaking dogs are hardly a favorite of mine.

It's interesting you're so worked up--I do think that a lot of your questions were answered.

First, dogs aren't really checking the blinds. It is an obedience exercise that makes sure the dog is listening to the commands of the handler, not just running to the blind they know the helper is in. Think of it this way--dogs are used to track criminals and rescue lost people over hundreds of acres (sometimes mroe). Do you really not think a dog coming on an open field does not know where the helper is before they come out? You yourself acknowledged that dogs are intelligent. Yep, so intelligent they don't need to use their eyes to make sure a helper is in a blind. 

Lots of people answered your questing about it being a "game." To plenty of dogs it is a game. To plenty, appropriate pressure is put on a dog and they do indeed think that the helper is a bad guy because the helper never plays the good guy. You made your observations based on watching a very small handful of dogs in one competition. No denying that certain people train a certain way, but you're being told that is not how everyone trains. There are plenty of dogs that will drop a sleeve, ingore it, and go back at the helper.

And there are a lot of high strung dogs out there that leak drive. But there are also a lot that don't.

And just like any normal dog event or walking through a parking lot, there are lots of dogs that will bark at you walking by a car and lots that won't. Not really sure what this has to do with Schutzhund. I've been barked at by just as many AKC obedience dogs as I have Schutzhund dogs.

Considering there are a lot of people all over the world that get excused from trials for their dog not outing, it's certainly not considered a desireable part of an exercise. But I don't think that just because a dog didn't out in one trial doesn't mean that a judge should think a bitch shouldn't be bred. It is a sport with 3 phases, and outing is one part of one phase. Just like with an athlete in any sport, there are good and bad days and some people are better at certain things. I can't say I've seen an event in which 90% of the dogs don't out, but since I wasn't there I'm not going to say you are right or wrong. Just that that certainly isn't the norm from anything I've seen.

I think most of these things were pretty well addressed in the posts following yours. One thing to remember is Schutzhund isn't any different than any sport or event--you will see the good, the bad, and the ugly. People's points to you are that there are a lot of people out there that do not consider sleeve-obsessed, leaky dogs the norm, nor do they consider them something that is sought out.



dzg said:


> So I dropped by the Ontario Regional Schutzhund qualifier and spent about 2 hours watching the dogs this morning in the "protection phase".
> 
> I went with an open mind to observe and learn but after this I really don't understand this sport of schutzhund, at all.
> Alot of the dogs were not really checking the blinds they just ran around them like they are obstacles, most dogs knew where the helper was from the get go (probably because judges and photographer were clustered around that blind - dogs are intelligent) and some subsequently skipped a few of the blinds on their own accord.
> 
> The handlers made a show of pointing towards the blinds to direct the dog but dogs were paying no notice to them as they tore around so it was more for show than effect. So the dog is totally trained and knows what is expected of him (not very natural, more theatrical and orchestrated) true schutzhund test would be in area dog has never seen, different setup from training and then lets see natural reactions.
> 
> Alot of the dogs were totally focused on the sleeve, even when helper was off-field the dogs could be seen tracking the sleeve and positioning his body in that direction (this is when judge is delivering score and dog should be "off").
> How is this 'protection work' when the sleeve is "imprinted" on the dogs brain ... its just a game in the dogs mind, bite the sleeve, get the sleeve, sleeve is all that matters, thats it.
> 
> Dogs seemed really high strung (whiny, barking etc) is this normal? Maybe competition nerves?
> 
> Alot of barking and growling going on if you walked by a van with dogs in it (again is this normal? some vans actually shook as I walked by, not at, but by! It startled me twice ... again is this normal? And if so then why, I am not threatening just walking by minding my business).
> 
> Many dogs failed to release when ordered to do so, in fact this was 90% normal when owner was in the far away position. Sure dog could hear them, heck I could hear the handlers clearly and I was another 30 metres away.
> 
> I also don't get why handlers had to yell at the top of their lungs to "aus" when the dog was 5 feet away from them?
> It felt to me like when you have no control over a child and you have to yell and scream to get them to pay attention ... And even then dog would not release .... imo a biddable dog should release immediately with a normal level voice command ... why yell at top of your lungs at 5 feet and even then its a 50-50 chance he/she obeys.
> 
> Some of the male dogs were big (heavy) and would hit with real power, this received highest applause from audience, it seemed a case of brawn and power over obedience and biddability.
> A dog bite hurts even from a sheltie, it will stop most attackers, imo a dog should be more obedient to do as handler asks rather than simply be prized for amount of hitting power.
> 
> I enjoyed the most seeing which dogs were biddable to the handler when told to release first time and immediately ... I woudl think obedience is th eultimate goal of dog training not intensity and hitting power .... unfortunately very very few woudl score high in my books..
> 
> There was one sable bitch that was very very good, she was small, but very obedient and biddable, unfortunately I don't know who she was as there was no announcement of the dogs as they entered the ring to compete nor did the judge say the name of the dog as he gave the points (strange administration of event).
> 
> Don't get defensive or angry, it was my first such schutzhund meet and I am posting honest, unfiltered observations.
> Schutzhund is imo simply a "sport" with very little (if any) real world value, I would rather spend my time doing obedience and having a biddable focused dog rather than seeing how quickly a dog can tear around the field and hit the helper with max power.
> 
> But I also realise that power/aggression/intensity wins titles and titled parents then sell puppies for the breeders ... we all have bills to pay (I get it) and so the cycle continues. Sad, sad, sad.


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## lhczth

Screaming at the dogs seems to be common. Some is due to nerves during a trial. Some is just bad handling and people thinking the dog will listen better if they yell (I have a club member that is terrible about this). Some may be dogs that don't "hear" well when at their peak level of drive so yelling helps. Not being at the trial, can't determine what might have been the cause for the dogs you watched. 

Much of the sleeve focus, at least in my area of the country, is due to bad training more so than bad dogs.


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## gagsd

_"But I also realise that power/aggression/intensity wins titles...."_

What is wrong with power, aggression, and intensity?


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## codmaster

dzg said:


> I posed several valid questions, no real answers in all of 8 pages, just lots of defensive posturing.
> 
> Its funny how the defenders harp on about my admittance of "not getting it" ... take that comment out of context as I explained VERY clearly exactly what I didn't get it .... but choose to ignore my pointed questions. How convenient.
> 
> Yes I only saw 3 mins of each dog for 2 hours that morning, doesn't invalidate my observations or questions.
> Or is it better not to ask?
> 
> If you need to scream at a dog that is 5 feet away from you at the top of your lungs to AUS ... and this is the result of the countless hours of training then training isi not really working is it?
> Or do I need to spend hours observing training at a club to realize that actually that dog not outing is actually a good sign?
> 
> Yeah ok pass me the Kool-Aid, grape flavour please.
> 
> How biting a sleeve in an environment where a dog knows it is no real danger (through all its weekly training) determines courage is so illogical its not even worth considering. but of-couse no one even tried to answer that question - too obvious eh?)
> 
> Please don't defend "reactivity" in dogs, there is no justification for reactivity, none whatsoever, and its not a breed requirement either. Thats an example of weak nerves and low thresholds and dogs like that shouldn't be bred and are a liability.
> 
> How posting valid observations, 7 pages later is suddenly labelled as a "critique" is ridiculous. I'm nto scared to post what I actually think instead of what I think people would like to me think.
> 
> Perhaps the posters who tell me to keep an open mind should follow their own advice?? (but I suppose that'd be too much to ask?)
> 
> Its the last time I post on this forum, one comes here to learn but it seems people need to crow the chorus and not toe the line.
> 
> Even the Ontario guide dog association wants nothing to do with the breed ..... perception is 99% of the battle ....


Hey, dzg, don't take it so personal! Got to have a tough skin to post most anything on a forum on the internet!

Sounded like you did have some legitimate concerns about the trial and it was good that you posted them. I have seen a couple shows and would express some like observations!


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## codmaster

lhczth said:


> *Screaming at the dogs seems to be common*. Some is due to nerves during a trial. Some is just bad handling and people thinking the dog will listen better if they yell (I have a club member that is terrible about this).* Some may be dogs that don't "hear" well when at their peak level of drive so yelling helps*. Not being at the trial, can't determine what might have been the cause for the dogs you watched.
> 
> Much of the sleeve focus, at least in my area of the country, is due to bad training more so than bad dogs.


Agreed! Any "need" to scream at a dog from only a few feet away is also due to bad 9or lack of) good training.

It is very common in my club even with some very experienced members. I don't think it should be needed if you have trained your dog and it does really look bad to any observers!


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Whoa Dzg,
> Not everyone drinks the kool-aid. Your points were very valid and most point to the "sport" of Sch/IPO. I have brought out many of your same points, and endured the chagrin of others, but it doesn't bother me and it doesn't change what is!!!
> Yes many of the sport people are very defensive about the sport as show people are very defensive about shows. They are quick to point out the positives and slow to acknowledge the negatives(one of the reasons both are producing the dogs we see today). Frankly, I think Shows and Trials have very valuable positives for our breed, BEFORE they morphed into competitions and accolades. It used to be about the dogs, now its about trainers/owners accomplishments. This comes with a price as the show ring has become restricted by artificial means and the trial field has become a sea of choreography. This is not in all cases, but enough so that you saw what you saw at the Regionals and it isn't atypical.
> i don't think you should leave as there are people on this forum with a wealth of knowledge if you truly want to learn, but you must endure the pack mentality....after all it is dogs we are dealing with....lol


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## Mrs.K

The yelling, is also a show effect. It's done by pretty much every single handler. I have yet to see one who doesn't yell at a trial. It's a big field and some handlers just do it for effect. It's been done for ages. They did it 40 years ago and they will do it in the future.


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## onyx'girl

Mrs. K~ I love your profile pic!!!!!!


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## Catu

I wrote a long post, but after it I looked into the previous posts of the OP and noticed he/she was biased waaay before attending the trial, so it didn't make sense speaking to someone who already chose to be deaf. 

Said that: Sleeve focusing is definitely a training issue, at leas in the case of mmy dog. My regular helper is very, prey oriented, to put it some way, but I've seen myself how other helpers cand bring out of him.

And finally, not to completely waste what could have been a good post: a couple of slow motion SchH bites:


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## Tracey H

Hi there,

New to the board and happened to see this thread and it caught my interest since I competed at the Ontario Regionals this year. I was unsuccessful in tracking, but that is how this sport can go. Maybe I can help clear a few things up.

The judge did say the names of both the dogs and handlers for every team right before he gave his critiques.

I was a person who yelled loud at my dog on the out. For me it was a combination of my trial nerves and knowing that in my last Regional my dog did not out. With protection the dog is in a higher state of drives so it is not uncommon to hear people shout the commands out. 

The blind searches are quite often done incorrectly. It should be a search of each blind not just running around. Of course getting the perfect picture in the exercises is harder then it looks! In training we can get a lot nicer performances many times when compared to what we get come trial time. New field, new helpers, different distractions all come into play..not to mention those of us who become nervous, anxious or just completely lose our minds can throw the dogs off.

Power, aggression and intensity is very important, but it certainly doesn’t win trials. IPO is a 3 phase sport and you need to have a well rounded dog to win. One who is steady and sensible when they should be yet show power when they need to. It is tough getting a dog who can do it all well.

Here is my Obedience and Protection videos so you can ask away. I admit to being far from perfect and made my share of bad handling mistakes. I am one of the worst people for trial nerves ever…so if I can do it, anyone can hit a trial field)











I can let you know where I lost points etc. as well, most are pretty obvious though !


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## FlyAway

Stories like the one on this link is why I will never to IPO sports with my dog, nor will I recommend it to anybody. It's a big ego trip for a lot of folks, and I have read too many abuse stories. Sure the dogs have fun biting, but everything is repetition and rote.

Sora's Schutzhund evaluation - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums


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## Tracey H

There are bad trainers and bad owners everywhere, certainly not limited to IPO. Some of the best trainers in the world are involved in this sport. 

For a dog to learn anything there has to be some repetition involved.

As far as only doing pattern training, at our club we very rarely work in patterns. We keep it fun for both the dog and handler, and there is a ton more to the sport then just the biting part. Most club days we don’t even put our dogs on a helper, there are 2 other phases to train. Besides, there are only 5 bites at IPO 3 level, but there is a whole lot of obedience and control needed in between the sleeve work.

( I didn’t read the link you provided..yet..)


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## onyx'girl

Tracey H, welcome to the board. 
Fly Away, I agree with Tracey H...I don't pattern train repetitively. There are so many things to work on, it is always changed up.

I wouldn't judge the sport on one person's(experience) post on a forum. There are many clubs out there, nobody is forced to work with anyone they don't agree with. And of course there are ego's in everything concerning training/showing in the canine world.


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## lhczth

Don't judge an entire sport on one person's account of their visit to one club. I would have never competed with dogs or horses if I based my opinion only on the awful people and groups I have met let alone the opinion of others.


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## codmaster

Interesting discussion on pattern and repetition training - I had a small experience one day in our club IPO obedience training.

of course i am very new to getting back to this training after many years.

i was running thru the BH OB routine and had just finished the run thru the pattern and was walking back to the fence gate when i figured that I would run Baron thru a little more training as no one else was coming on the field. So we did some heeling and the like, then I tried a Sit in motion and when thet went real good heeled around some more and then did a Down in motion and a Recall and finish which he did perfectly. So i am walking off the field with my dog and the training Director kind of corners me and informed me that i shouldn't do that. On the field i should train my dog just in the official BH pattern. It will be much better if he only works in the BH pattern on the field so he gets it totally used to it!

He was VERY emphatic about this as well, (esp. when I asked WHY and said that I wanted my dog to recall and stay, etc. from anywhere and anytime).

At any rate, hearing this thread talking about pattern training, dog generalization of their training, and rote and repetition reminded me of it. 

I don't agree with it as I still feel that my dog *should* (doesn't yet bet we are working on it) respond to the OB commands under any conditions and in any envioronment.

However., I can certainly see the point, esp. for those folks trying for hi scores and the national level of competition. BTW, our head trainer is an extremely knowledgable trainer and national level competitor. Just different expectations for my dog, I guess.


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## mycobraracr

codmaster said:


> Interesting discussion on pattern and repetition training - I had a small experience one day in our club IPO obedience training.
> 
> of course i am very new to getting back to this training after many years.
> 
> i was running thru the BH OB routine and had just finished the run thru the pattern and was walking back to the fence gate when i figured that I would run Baron thru a little more training as no one else was coming on the field. So we did some heeling and the like, then I tried a Sit in motion and when thet went real good heeled around some more and then did a Down in motion and a Recall and finish which he did perfectly. So i am walking off the field with my dog and the training Director kind of corners me and informed me that i shouldn't do that. On the field i should train my dog just in the official BH pattern. It will be much better if he only works in the BH pattern on the field so he gets it totally used to it!
> 
> He was VERY emphatic about this as well, (esp. when I asked WHY and said that I wanted my dog to recall and stay, etc. from anywhere and anytime).
> 
> At any rate, hearing this thread talking about pattern training, dog generalization of their training, and rote and repetition reminded me of it.
> 
> I don't agree with it as I still feel that my dog *should* (doesn't yet bet we are working on it) respond to the OB commands under any conditions and in any envioronment.
> 
> However., I can certainly see the point, esp. for those folks trying for hi scores and the national level of competition. BTW, our head trainer is an extremely knowledgable trainer and national level competitor. Just different expectations for my dog, I guess.


:thumbup: I have the same issue. I want my dog to do it everywhere, facing any direction. I feel the same way for my protection portion. If I don't score 100pts oh well.


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## Liesje

FlyAway said:


> Stories like the one on this link is why I will never to IPO sports with my dog, nor will I recommend it to anybody. It's a big ego trip for a lot of folks, and I have read too many abuse stories. Sure the dogs have fun biting, but everything is repetition and rote.
> 
> Sora's Schutzhund evaluation - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums


Um....ok. I've found the exact opposite to be true. When I got my first dog I adopted an adult female GSD from a breeder, good dog and decent pedigree. I did not grow up with dogs (or any animals) and none of my closest friends or family had any interest in dogs. When I started training and doing various dog sports I was on my own. To date I've never competed on a "home" field/building/club. Up until very recently, anytime I went somewhere to take a test or trial I was often the only person that didn't know anyone else and many times the only person not in the club hosting the event. Sometimes I was the only female! As a young (mid-20s) female I never once felt people were trying to get me down or ego-tripping. In fact my experience has been that the guys who appear the most gruff on the outside are typically the most friendly, supportive, and accommodating people I've met in dog sports. I took my first dog to this test where we drove 3 hours to get there to a club I'd never been. The training director ran it like a military drill. It was me and my small female GSDs and their club being a bunch of big, gruff guys with huge Rottweilers and Presas. But once we started talking these guys were a hoot. I've had a similar experience many times at several different SchH/DVG/IPO clubs. Very supportive people and great sportsmanship.

I would say "I'm sorry you've had a bad experience" but it sounds like you've already decided to never even try so I'm not sure what else to say other than speak for yourself when you go around recommending that people never try something you have zero experience with.

The poor sportsmanship and ego-tripping behavior I've heard about has generally been the same few people always arguing about the same old stuff which has little to no impact for 99.9% of the people who love doing Schutzhund. The very few times I have encountered this, it has more to do with personality than dog sport. Some people are just buttholes whether they are doing SchH or playing golf.

Some of the people I've met along the way I'm proud to say are some of my best friends. I'm closer to many than my own family. We have each other's backs, not just as far as training dogs but as friends in general.


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## cliffson1

I don't think anybody would argue that Sch today has become very specific in training modes today. I think that one reason for this in America is because a high percent of the clubs in America were started or founded by national level competitors. Therefore there is a strong emphasis on training for points and stylish presentation. This is not a critique of clubs, just a reflection of the mindset that is often found at clubs, that sometimes doesn't mesh with people who want to title their dogs as opposed to trialing competitively. I look at the clubs in NJ/PA, and most of them were started by top competitors. 
Again, this is not a criticism of Sch, just trying to help people understand why or what they sometimes see.


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## GatorDog

FlyAway said:


> Stories like the one on this link is why I will never to IPO sports with my dog, nor will I recommend it to anybody. It's a big ego trip for a lot of folks, and I have read too many abuse stories. Sure the dogs have fun biting, but everything is repetition and rote.
> 
> Sora's Schutzhund evaluation - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums


It's not just about the dogs 'having fun biting.' There's a whole lot more to the sport than that tiny little bit, but judging from your attitude, you'd probably never be open minded enough to learn for yourself.


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## Castlemaid

I really hate it when people judge a whole organization and sport by one club or the behaviour of one individual. I've started training with my mutt, had nothing but fun, support and encouragement, and did as much with her as I could. The vast majority of people doing SchH/IPO have started out with so-so dogs, and were encouraged to continue working to bring them to their max potential. 

That would be like me taking my GSD to a competitive agility club, and being put down for not having a Border Collie. Weeelllll, does that mean that Agility is elitist and I should go on the internet and denounce all Border Collie owning Agility competitors? Sorta silly if you look at it that way.


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