# Nervy Traits



## debbiebrown

would like to have a constructive discussion about nervy traits......why these traits are bred into certain lines..........why it can be good, why its not so good.......and if there is an actual difference between nervy and fearful are they one in the same, or can fearfulness be mistaken for nerviness....i see alot of post lately about fearfulness and thought i would have the more educated people here define things........hoping maybe Cliff and some of the others would step in and explain...

debbie


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## rokanhaus

I don't think fearfulness is the same as nerve at all. It is all very complex. You can have one without the other for sure. A little bit of nerve is what gets you the fast retrieves, flashy obedience. A little too much nerve though and you certainly have problems. Fearfulness, there is no good purpose for even a small dose of that...although it is related to defense. Some defense is good, but again too much and you can have trouble again.


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## Chris Wild

I can't think of anyone *intentionally* breeding for poor nerves or creating nervy bloodlines. It often happens as a by-product of people not paying attention or working to maintain good nerves. But that is different from intentionally breeding it.

Can you specify what "nervy traits" you're referring to?


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## Brightelf

Kandi, that's a great way of explaining it. I also agree with Chris, I think weak nerves happen when other traits are being selected for,I don't think anyone selects for nerve weakness per se. 

Debbie, are you thinking of some examples specificly, like anxious dogs? Separation anxiety? Storm phobias? Fear aggression? Just trying to understand better if you mean weak nerves displayed as fearfulness, or dogs who respond poorly to stress, etc.


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## debbiebrown

ok, let me see if i can define this.....maybe more inviromental nerviness, with to many things going on....also....people nerviness as weary of people.....are some examples...

fear and nervy sharp might be different things, but in some incidences could be mistaken for one or the other.

i actually am wondering more about why the nervy sharp part is bred into some lines.............more for police protection uses is what i have so far learned....not necessarily the fear part but the nerve sharp part......also, trying to understand the low threshold dogs vs the higher thresholds....

i am trying to be as clear as i can in explaining this, but it might have it a bit off.......so, bare with me.....


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## debbiebrown

That was a good explaination from Kandi, makes sense....


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## debbiebrown

ok, let me give a better example.........some dogs are like"oh no that tree branch just moved" or "{ that person is staring at me" or "whats tha weird noise" and they react vs other dogs wouldn't give those things a second thought.........would that be a nervy trait or a fearish trait?

hope that makes more sense..........

i can see why nervy sharp would be a good dog for protection since they are in tune with everything.........but also on the same token they need to have the right balance to go along with it.....


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## Brightelf

Oh yes, environmental issues! Startle responses and such. I'll let the breeding experts weigh in. Thanks for clarifying! Hopefully, you'll get good responses! Good thread idea!


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## tedebear12

Hi: As you can see, I'm a new poster around here ...but I've been with the breed for 30 years. There is absolutely no good reason to intentionally breed for nervy issues or as I call it: anxiety. These are dogs that react poorly under stress, have a hard time making judgment calls about real threats, and can be dangerous at worst. Nerve problems are on the same off shoot as fear. There are just gradations.

Most police departments that are large and experienced do not want a nervy dog at all. It is a liability, and the dog is not trust worthy. They look for a dog with a high fight drive that will fight under real threat, not react to just anything. 

As an owner of a dog with terrible aggression problems to both strangers and dogs, I can tell you that he is highly reactive to anything in his environment that seems different. It is genetic, and training has made him manageable, but he is a liability. He cannot perceive actual threats from the vast majority of life, and he cannot be trusted as he is not predictable. He is lucky I know the breed, and am a trainer. I can't imagine the average person getting him! 

Some dogs with nerve problems will simply retreat, but to intentionally or without care produce dogs with this problem is irresponsible. 

Just my thoughts. 

Kim


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## debbiebrown

ok, let me clarify....i don't think anyone intentionally breeds for a totally nervy unpredictable dog.......but i know there are some charactoristics with a bit of nerve that are prefered in some cases, as long as they have a good solid Balance.........to go with it.........i would imagine anyone breeding a bit of this would have to be very careful matching up the lines, and i am sure there would be a chance that the neviness could over ride the good stuff in some incidences.......

i tend to agree that fear and nerviness can be darn close to being one in the same if its extreme. and i also agree dogs that can't tell the difference between a non=threat and a real threat are a huge liability.

i still would like to know how, and why the nerviness came about in the breeding lines..........someone must have had a need for that type of gsd......Guard dogs in germany possible? where that type of trait was accepted at one time?


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## Smithie86

Debbie,

Another point is do people recognize the nerve issue, small/medium/large?

Sometimes the awesome full/hard grip is also due to nerves - it is the safe place. 

People have to look at the whole picture, body language, etc to see the dog, but also know what they are looking for.


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## debbiebrown

Thanks Sue, another good explaination........


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## debbiebrown

i think that is important to be able to recognize the nerve trait vs fearish traits......where they are so similar.....

so, anyone care to give examples of nervy reactions vs fearish body lauguage in a situation..........?


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## GSD07

I do not see any difference between nervous and fearful. I think both are the same, i.e. insecurity that stands on the way of dog's ability to think. The trigger can be different, the threshold can be different, so we assign different labels to the behavior, but it's still faulty nerve.


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## BowWowMeow

I disagree. My Basu was fearful but it was because he was abused. It wasn't genetic, it was environmental...he had solid nerves but 4.5 years of neglect and abuse took its toll on him. 

When we first adopted him he was frightened of everyone and didn't know how to do basic things like climb steps, cross bridges, walk into water, etc. After a few years you'd never know his past though.


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## JKlatsky

I agree with Kandi. I always found that a little bit of nerve does give that beautiful flashy obedience. I think that's why you see such beautiful obedience in the Malinois. However, I think if you have some nerve it has to be coupled with good recovery so it doesn't progress to fearfulness. 

I think it is hard to define these different dog terms and there are often several different interpretations which cause confusions. I don't consider nerve and nervousness to be the same thing. I think many of the higher level obedience dogs now have a certain amount of nerve that contributes to their performance. I look at nerve as more easily stimulated by the environment or handler, not necessarily anxious.


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## Debbieg

Nervy can also mean brave can't it. A dog can have strong or weak nerves, or be somewhere in between. How are nerves related to drive?

Benny hackles more than my previous dog but it seem to be, a state of cautious excitement. 

Benny is 8 1/2 months now and when through and he has not been at all bothered by the New Years Eve Fire works, the work man using power tools renovating our bathroom. He is good with friendly strangers and ignores strangers who ignore him, unless something strikes them as odd. Today we were stopped at a light and he freaked out barking at a guy in a "Mr Pickles " suit who was jumping around.
He will also lunge at bark at dogs barking and lunging at him from behind fences, like he is saying "Right back at ya". He will also try and attack the vaccum, I think not out of fear, but because he likes to attack it.


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## GSD07

Ruth, you made a good point. When I think weak nerves I always mean 'genetic'. I forgot that fear comes from abuse too, and if the dog was born sound then this issue can be corrected, just like Basu did.

I think all our interpretations are subjective. I do not care for flashy obedience, for me a calm confident dog that gets the job done is much more appealing so I may see the nervousness and nerve to be the same thing just a little bit more polished by a trainer, but I may be wrong. Interesting thread.


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## rokanhaus

Again it is all so extremely complex with so many variables. 

I have seen a dog with a nervous anxious owner instantly turn into a different animal when someone in control and calm took over the leash.

Environment can certainly play a role. Although I am less likey to buy into this. In spite of any or all bad experiences, I would like to think that good temperament will prevail...even it is takes time to see it...but I can also think of instances where it simply might not or be too much to ask.

And yes, genetics as well. 

"Nerve" which is not the same as "nervous", I tend to describe as the quickness in which a dog reacts to a stimuli or how they react. Dog chases ball, accidently drops ball, and frantically chases it to get it back into it's mouth. I describe this as "nerve". Not all nerve is bad. Watching Malinois, it is easy to get a good example of nerve. Many times, they simply do or react, with no thought. They can be almost magnetic to the sleeve. You often hear people describe it is "weak nerve" or "strong nerve". Most dogs with weak nerve do not travel well or cannot handle new environments or routines well.

The problem is, these terms mean different things to almost everyone.

Fear to me, as I stated earlier is more related to defense. Defense is based on fear. Sure, it can look might strong and powerful, but a dog reacts in fear aka defense when faced with a threat...be it real, imagined, or wrongly percieved. All good GSD's should have an amount of defense, but ask any breeder and one of the main goals is to properly match it up with an equal amount of prey to create the "balanced dog". Would be a heck of a lot easier if we could use syringes instead of rolling the genetic dice.

I see many "teenager" dogs appear nervy, or fear based, or defensive, when in fact they are simply not given any leadership. A common example of this is the older pup who starts to sound off at other dogs. Then the owners rush to claim he is dog aggressive when in fact, he is not. He simply has not been taught acceptable behavoir, social skills, or been simply told "he can't" in the form of "knock it off" at level at which grabs his attention and makes him understand. Many dogs without leadership, rules, and guidelines can quickly become "unbalanced". Dogs, like kids, will push the limits to find the boundaries. Once they know where they are and they are defined, they feel secure.

Ok..husband walked in and distracted me....lost my total train of thought....


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## BowWowMeow

So what exactly is "nervy" then? Rafi fits the malinois description to a tee. His OB is amazing. He always has one eye on me, no matter what's happening around him. I call him a thinking dog because he's always anticipating what I want from him and often figures it out before I give him a command. He is not uber confident like my first gsd but he is quietly confident, he's really grown into himself. He also gets stimulated easily but not by barking dogs or anything like that...it's tugging, chasing, etc. that get him going. If he is with one of my friends who is not a confident handler he is a completely different dog.


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## Vandal

> Quote:Sometimes the awesome full/hard grip is also due to nerves - it is the safe place.
> 
> People have to look at the whole picture, body language, etc to see the dog, but also know what they are looking for.


We had a discussion on this board a few years back about this. Recently on another list as well.

Regarding what Sue said: I remember years ago there was a dog in this area that all the SchH people just raved about. That dog came like a rocket on the courage test and everyone thought that dog was just the bees knees.. A friend of mine, who knows more about GSDs than I do, and certainly more back then, was there one day when this dog was working. I remember saying to her, "watch this dog". She did and then looked disinterested. I was expecting a different reaction, so, I asked her what she thought. She just said this:" He's frantic". I have to admit, that made me go "Huh"....but every time after that, when I saw that dog, I watched more carefully. It was true, there was just this frantic need to get to that sleeve and it was about relieving stress. I see it in dogs I work as the helper as well. Similar to the force retrieve where the dog gets calmness by taking and holding the dumbbell but that is when compulsion is applied and the dog is reacting to that stress. People are going to have to think about what I am saying here and maybe go watch some dogs yourself and then maybe you will understand it. More and more we see dogs who scream on the sleeve and are so edgy because they are "flashier". Flash doesn't make for the best breeding dogs, maybe they score well in what is now SchH but they are not my cup of tea. I have some more modern working lines in my kennel and I have seen a bit of this as well. My answer has been to breed those lines back into the old lines I have and that has really improved what I am getting quite a bit. Problem for most people now is finding a modern line with the stability and nerve strength the old lines had. I have not seen many dogs that have what those old lines did nowadays.


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## Vandal

> Quote: I see many "teenager" dogs appear nervy, or fear based, or defensive, when in fact they are simply not given any leadership.


I absolutely agree with this. People will argue and tell you they are providing it...no....no they are not. Usually, they are making matters much worse.

Ediited to add: Many times people seem to get obsessed with "fixing" what they consider to be a problem. All my old time GSD friends with decades of knowledge will simply say, "leave the dog alone for crying out loud". lol


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## rokanhaus

Ruth, I would even attempt to describe your dog or assess his temperament without seeing him in person. Everyone has different perceptions and/or definitions of terms.


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## duramax

I know I'm no expert but to me, nervousness and anxiety go together and aware of surroundings and self confidence go together, in making a stable or unstable dog. And I guess, would that be the question that needs to be asked, stable or unstable? But just like a person, you can have someone who carry themselves in a quiet confident manner, and under various amounts of stress can fold up like a cheap suitcase. And on the other end of the scale a very nervous person who under a tremendous amount of stress is the one who takes charge and is the one who can get anything done.


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## rokanhaus

Also, to make this more complicated, many people misinterpret "nerve" as "drive". I see this often in showlines,, but not limited to showlines of course. Standing next to me on a schutzhund field I could show you examples of this. I could not even begin to put it into words on a message board though...


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowSo what exactly is "nervy" then?


To me, a "nervy" dog is one that has a low threshold as far as what instigates anxiety, AND the dog does not recover as quickly as a sound dog. I'm OK with a dog being a little edgy, a little suspicious, and keeping alert, but to me that's different than say, a dog that overhears you yelling "WHAT THE HECK?!?!" at a bad call during a sports game on TV, tucks its tail, runs away, and cowers for the next half hour.

I guess I see the things that instigate the anxiety/"nerviness" as being more environmental, the threshold itself as both genetic and environmental/nuture (genetics, but also how the dog has been treated and socialized), and the ability to recover as genetic.


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## debbiebrown

leadership does play a huge roll in many dog issues......so does the right training, exposure, etc. dogs that have been totally exposed to new inviroments, class atmopheres, people etc, all good positive things from the time they were 12 weeks old on and still show nervousness with inviroments/people etc..........i think we are talking fear based, not nervy traits?. maybe i'm wrong...
So, even if a dog percieves people he knows as a threat, places he's been to, time and time again a threat....this would be more fear based or nervy traits? just trying to find a fine line difference between nervy and fear......or unpredicatable traits...
even with the best of leadership some of these traits are hard to deal with.............because you never know what might set them off....


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: Vandal Many times people seem to get obsessed with "fixing" what they consider to be a problem. All my old time GSD friends with decades of knowledge will simply say, "leave the dog alone for crying out loud". lol


I agree and think it's worth repeating. The only thing is that people are lead to believing their dogs have a problem by so numerous these days and often self proclaimed _trainers, police trainers, behaviorists, veterinary behaviorists, certified trainers, vets, internet experts_ you name it. Modern day owners have to have trust in their dogs and possess some common sense and strong nerves themselves.


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## Vandal

> Quote:leadership does play a huge roll in many dog issues......so does the right training, exposure, etc. dogs that have been totally exposed to new inviroments, class atmopheres, people etc, all good positive things from the time they were 12 weeks old on and still show nervousness with inviroments/people etc..........i think we are talking fear based, not nervy traits?. maybe i'm wrong...
> So, even if a dog percieves people he knows as a threat, places he's been to, time and time again a threat....this would be more fear based or nervy traits? just trying to find a fine line difference between nervy and fear......or unpredicatable traits...
> even with the best of leadership some of these traits are hard to deal with.............because you never know what might set them off....


I'll try to be more specific. You have to consider that the more you put a dog in a position to display a behavior, the more the dog will do that behavior. So, if you have a dog who is a certain age and he has a bad reaction to something, it is not always the best thing to continue to put the dog in that situation over and over trying to get him "over it". Lots of the time it is better to avoid the situation until the dog is a bit older and maybe more equipped to deal with it. That way, he is not showing avoidance over and over where that behavior gets "set". Leadership also means you give the dog something to do besides avoiding. It is amazing to me all the advise out there about socializing and very little about HOW to do that , what to avoid etc. Young dogs are just that and they go thru stages. How YOU handle those stages can have lifetime consequences.


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## rokanhaus

Brilliantly stated Anne!!


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> You have to consider that the more you put a dog in a position to display a behavior, the more the dog will do that behavior. So, if you have a dog who is a certain age and he has a bad reaction to something, it is not always the best thing to continue to put the dog in that situation over and over trying to get him "over it". Lots of the time it is better to avoid the situation until the dog is a bit older and maybe more equipped to deal with it. That way, he is not showing avoidance over and over where that behavior gets "set". Leadership also means you give the dog something to do besides avoiding. It is amazing to me all the advise out there about socializing and very little about HOW to do that , what to avoid etc. Young dogs are just that and they go thru stages. How YOU handle those stages can have lifetime consequences.


Anne, reading this is like a breathe of fresh air! When I got my first dog and started some training I fell in with the "positive only" crowd. I know this is not true of everyone who uses these methods, but I got the vibe that because I had a dog that didn't care for the dog park and wasn't going to be buddy-buddy with all the other dogs at the training club, I was somehow a failure and that if I just tried harder, or just tried this new method of clicker training, that my dog would suddenly decide he liked the dog park. Looking back I see how stupid that was. There is nothing wrong with my dog; he does not bark and lunge at other dogs and has never attacked another dog. He just needs his space and doesn't need any dog friends besides the other dogs I own. Having dogs that are totally open and friendly with every other dog out there is just so not a priority of mine, and yet for a long time I allowed other people's opinions to make me feel ashamed of my dogs and my training for something that I don't really care about one way or the other.

Now, when Nikon was about 4 months old he got SUPER reactive around other dogs. At this age he WAS lunging and barking at them and probably would have been the one to attack. So many so-called trainers and behaviorists insisted I go on long walks and expose him to as many dogs as possible doing this or that with clickers and treats. Basically force him to be constantly exposed to the thing that was stressing him out, and just flood him while trying to feed him treats. I did not feel comfortable taking such a gamble with a young dog in an environment I did not have total control over (loose dogs on walks in public) so I choose a totally different route - I kept my dog excluded from any dog but my own with the exception of Schutzhund training (which didn't seem to matter since everyone is so much more considerate about crating dogs and giving everyone their space). For several months I just ignored the fact that my dog hated other dogs and only focused on letting him mature, letting him be a normal puppy, playing lots of motivational games. When he was about 10 months old, I took him out for a walk and sure enough we were approached and charged by several dogs and my dog didn't so much as bark at one, he just didn't care about other dogs anymore. Since then it's become a non-issue. My only guesses are that he just needed time and space to mature, and I was able to build a better relationship and more leadership using the types of games and activities that I could control without constant stress and distraction from other dogs.

I know this is not really relevant to dogs being "nervy" but I totally understand what Anne is saying. Some people just want us to push young dogs so hard and make you think your dog has "issues" if he doesn't fit their mold of a perfect pet. I didn't know what I was doing, and most of the people trying to tell me what to do probably didn't either. I'm glad I had another outlet (SchH club) and was able to tune that out and just let my dog be a DOG.


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## JakodaCD OA

Lies, masi had the same problem as nikon.. Having had gsd's my entire life, I should have known better(

Put her in a purely positive puppy class, that was anything but purely positive for her, (long story)turned my happy "i like everything puppy" into a dog on the defensive with not only dogs but people. I yanked her out of it, wish I had done it sooner vs later.

THANKFULLY, I didn't ruin her for life, worked on her and I alone, I let her be a dog, as she has matured, (she's only 20mths right now) I can see those things that would put her into defense mode, don't even cross her mind. No, she doesn't care for most strange dogs, but she acts like they don't exist. No, she isn't a golden retriever who loves everyone out in public, she's a "watcher" and would prefer to leave it at that. I can take her into any situation and she's fine with it. 

I think she's learned to trust MY judgement and I"ve learned to trust hers. 

Most people by now are showing their dogs, in whatever sport. I've chosen to wait , let her mature more and let her just be a dog..) 

Sorry I kinda hijacked the thread to.( 

I do think alot of dogs mature at different rates, and with that maturity comes more confidence. 

This thread has been very a very educational read))


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## debbiebrown

unfortunately its not a perfect world, we all do the best we can with our dogs...........we try to make the right decisions, and hope things come around ......some folks go to classes trainers trusting in these people, etc. we all learn just like our dogs learn what works and what doesn't.......
alot of dogs can sail through anything because maybe they are more solid, more confident, more balanced from the get go, others have issues that need the right guidence.
this brings up another question about quailified trainers to work with people that have dogs with these traits...........in my experience.....
.....there hasn't been many i have felt were qualified........most trainers deal with the general public....people that have labs, goldens,,,,,,dogs that are milder in temps....very few actually have a grasp on dealing with gsd's and temperments...

we kinda went by the wayside, but i enjoyed everyones comments....my first question in starting this thread, was why was the nerviness bred into the gsd, and why? someone must have had a use for it? Have we also defined the difference if any between nervy and fearish? i might have missed some posts...............

Ialso totally agree with Anne, great post!


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## duramax

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausAlso, to make this more complicated, many people misinterpret "nerve" as "drive". I see this often in showlines,, but not limited to showlines of course. Standing next to me on a schutzhund field I could show you examples of this. I could not even begin to put it into words on a message board though...


 .............................. Exactly


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## JakodaCD OA

well unfortunately anyone can label themselves a "trainer" now adays, and also unfortunately most trainers that you see in businesses, are not equipped to tackle 'problems' that aren't the norm. 

Behaviorists are far and few in between as well. 

Your right, sometimes most can only work with what's available to them (

and sorry I can't answer your 'why was the nerviness bred into them'...


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## debbiebrown

ok, i'm giving more examples on nervy vs fearful

say you went for the same walk with the same friend and her golden retriver with your gsd once a week. very normal pleasant walk, .........your dog knows this person and their dog well, no negatives here............you get back from the walk your friend goes inside the garage comes out and your dog hackles and barks at her like he doesn't even know her........fearful, or nervy?. 

you meet your trainer at a walmart parkinglot for the first time to train...you park get out with your dog, the trainer is standing 3 feet from the car.your dog immediately lunges and goes to bite her, and he knows her..............fearful, or nervy?

visitor comes to home someone the dog knows, stays visits gives the dog treats no problem. the guy moves his feet while sitting, the dog hackles and barks.the guy gets up to leave the dog grabs his pantleg while he's walking out........say this happens without warning since the dog was laying down in a relaxed state....fearful or nervy?

just giving examples of senarios to help define fearful or nervy in hopes that others may learn the difference if they are dealing with similar issues....


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## rokanhaus

Yes, sadly trainers skilled in agresssion or real problems are a needle in the haystack.

Many trainers today do the 6 week course, and get certified. Or maybe have titled a couple dogs in obedience or agility. IMO, to REALLY be a trainer this is not enough. A Petco employee recently approached me after hearing a conversation I was having with someone and asked me where was the best place to learn to be a trainer. I told her to go volunteer at the local shelter. Work with the problem dogs. There is your education. Aggresive dogs will certainly give you a crash course in "handling" and training.

Yes, I have titled several dogs. Taken dogs to regional and/or national level. But this is with dogs born, bred, and raised to do exactly this. Ask me to work with a dog with NO food or toy drive, NO desire to please, and with a mish mash or poor breeding for generations and generations and train that! Now there is a real trainer. No thanks. I will stick with the easy dogs.


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## rokanhaus

Deb, 

What do you do when he does these things? do you pull him back and verbally reprimand him?

After he does this, what is the immediate next step?


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## debbiebrown

yes, a firm "no" and redirect meaning making him come sit...........and he knows what "no" means...........he does stop what he's doing......but, no real threats in these situations, so trying to figure out where its coming from............i do not restrain him meaning tight leash etc......so, defining what this behavior is being fear or nerviness, or just mis-directed aggression stuff....
like you said i don't think he was standing in line when they passed out the stuff that balances all this.......lol!


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## Vandal

How old is he/was he, when he was doing these things?


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## Vandal

While I am waiting for an answer, I will offer this. You seem to know that the dog is probably going to react in these situations. So, I will ask you, why you are allowing it? When new people are in your house or you are in the situations you describe, you should be using obedience to tell the dog what he should be doing. You are leaving the decisions up to him and he is making the wrong ones. Then you tell him no but that still is not telling him what he SHOULD be doing. Your no is just too little or maybe too much...WAY too late.
So, what I mean is this. You meet your trainer at Walmart. You get out of the car, tell the brain surgeon trainer there to back away from your car so she doesn't bring that out in your dog, and then tell your dog to sit. If he barks or growls he gets corrected for not sitting. You need to get ahead of this and stop waiting until it is too late.


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## debbiebrown

the walmart situation was something i hadn't done before........so right,,,,,i learned a lesson.........

i had no idea he would react to a friend that we had been walking with since he was young, this is the first time he did it..............he;s been fine with her........

he;s fine one minute looks content, the next minute he reacts for no reason.......

i realize no one can give me the right answers on this dog without seeing him.......but, i do feel he has been exposed enough at this point so he should be comfortable in most every situation.........

yes, i do have alot to learn on what his triggers are, but on the same token what triggers him one time might be fine the next time, and then what i think he's fine with might trigger him on another occasion............

plain and simple the dog has issues, and i am just trying my darndest to figure out where he's coming from.....because he's not consistant.if he were i'd have it figured out by now......

and maybe i do need more education on how to handle a dog like him, and i do appreciate all the advice...........none of us are perfect and we all learn from our experiences.....


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## debbiebrown

he is 22 months old, and he started doing this behavior at 4 months and its never really gotten any better........


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: debbieb...because he's not consistant.if he were i'd have it figured out by now...


Debbie, it doesn't matter that he's not consistent. What matters that you are consistent and you make his world black and white and allow him to make zero decisions at this point, zero. Your dog never has to guess what will happen next, he has to know exactly what is expected because you tell him and you are consistent. 

And you do need to enforce your rules. At some point I stopped feeling sorry for Yana and started treating her like any other dog regardless of her issues because I couldn't take that anymore. I quit trying so hard, and she finally relaxed.


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## Vandal

> Quote: he;s fine one minute looks content, the next minute he reacts for no reason.......
> 
> i realize no one can give me the right answers on this dog without seeing him.......but, i do feel he has been exposed enough at this point so he should be comfortable in most every situation.........
> 
> yes, i do have alot to learn on what his triggers are, but on the same token what triggers him one time might be fine the next time, and then what i think he's fine with might trigger him on another occasion............
> 
> plain and simple the dog has issues, and i am just trying my darndest to figure out where he's coming from.....because he's not consistant.if he were i'd have it figured out by now......
> 
> and maybe i do need more education on how to handle a dog like him, and i do appreciate all the advice...........none of us are perfect and we all learn from our experiences.....


Debbie,
I deal with this same situation with a majority of my obedience clients. One form of aggression or another and the people ALWAYS have to learn. Nothing to be ashamed of there. One of my first SchH dogs was very much like what you are describing and I didn't know how to handle it either. Finally figured it out and when he was four, he was a VERY trustworthy dog who I would freely allow people to interact with including children. 

He is not reacting for "no reason". He is reacting to something he sees that disturbs him. It can be the most subtle of body language but don't tell yourself it is coming from no where, it isn't. He also has not been handled correctly so " exposed enough" should read "exposed incorrectly". However, it is not too late to do it right .

Try what I said and Oksana is also right on. You have to approach it like every situation has the potential for the dog to do this. So, you have to take the bull by the horns here and tell the dog what to do, in every situation. 
I will be bold here and say no, I don't have to see the dog. I have seen plenty just like him. This sounds like a protective dog who hasn't received the right direction and is still very immature. Dogs like this usually mature out of this IF they are handled correctly. It must be a case where you tell the dog what to do BEFORE he reacts like this, not after. After is just too late. You use the obedience to tell the dog what he should be doing in each situation. I use sit. He is not allowed to lunge or growl since that is not what sit means...it means sit and be quiet. You do not want to allow people to impose themselves on the dog when he is sitting there, he should be allowed to be there unmolested. I am sure this dog doesn't really enjoy pets from strangers anyway.

What ends up happening is the dog will gain confidence thru obedience. He is not allowed to show the undesirable behaviors and learns that he doesn't have to lunge and growl etc to keep you and him safe. You all live through those situations without all the aggressive displays and as that happens less, he will try it less. Does that make sense?

You also have to ask yourself how YOU are feeling in these situations. If you are nervous or uncomfortable, the dog feels that and it makes things MUCH...MUCH worse. When the dog feels tension or nervousness in the handler, they really start to feel like they have to protect. The handler's behavior is telling the dog something is wrong and the dog then starts to look for the source of that . There is usually a dog or a person nearby and they key in on them. You have to be in control of your emotions in order to effectively handle a dog like this.


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## Vandal

It would certainly help if you had someone who understands what I am saying here, help you by observing and coaching you.
Also, you have to remind the dog to stay in the sit with calm, firm commands. If he starts to break, you can correct him CALMLY and tell him to sit. Saying no, or leave it, stuff like that, I find to not be as effective as repeating to the dog what you want him to do....SIT. The tone of your voice really matters, no yelling or raising your voice.


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## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: VandalIf he starts to break, you can correct him CALMLY and tell him to sit.


Anne, how would you correct in this situation? A leash correction with a prong and then repeat the sit command?

I have a dog (Keefer) who will react to other dogs when he's on leash, mostly at a distance. He's actually great with them off leash, and if he has the chance to meet them he's also fine. I've noticed that he's MUCH better now that he's had a chance to mature - he turned 4 years old in August. I'm well aware of how my demeanor can affect my dogs' reactions to a situation, as a previous dog, Cassidy, was HIGHLY leash reactive, as well as having weak nerves and a poor temperament in general. At the time, I was in over my head with her, but I learned a lot, and now instinctively treat any reactivity with calm cheer and matter of factness rather than tensing up and exacerbating the stress. 

When Halo went into heat this summer I went back to working with Keefer on long leash walks, 3-5 miles several times a week on a path next to a nearby lake, a highly distracting environment with lots of people, dogs, kids, and bikes. When I saw a person with a dog approaching, I would put him in a sit, facing away from the dog, before he reacted. I would get his attention on me by luring his head around with a treat if necessary, and then reward him for remaining calm as they passed and then we'd keep walking. Several times I ended up stopping and talking to other people with dogs and was able to take several steps towards them, put Keef back in a sit, and continue rewarding him. Within a few minutes I could usually approach them, close enough that he could sniff the other dog (if it was friendly), and once we even ended up walking next to two other women and their dogs for the last mile and a half with him completely relaxed. Another time he laid down on the ground while I talked to a man who was walking another GSD.

I think his improvement mostly had to do with his maturity, my working with him consistently and being proactive by knowing when he might react, and having a plan in place to deal with it before it happens (which certainly helps with MY stress!), and by remaining calm. It is a difficult thing to deal with, that's for sure, but at least I know he's not really aggressive, he's just being a brat and it's up to me to let him know that's not acceptable.


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## Vandal

> Quote: Anne, how would you correct in this situation? A leash correction with a prong and then repeat the sit command?


That depends on the dog. Some dogs will respond to a reminder command, some on a flat collar some on a pinch. Some dogs get more aggressive when a pinch is used. That part I can't say without seeing the dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks. I'm not worried about him getting aggressive, but I would definitely not have used a prong on Cassidy. I was just curious because the term "correction" is used so frequently without actually defining how it's meant in any given circumstance - it makes perfect sense that the level and kind of correction would depend on the dog, but I hate to assume what the poster means when they say it because what *I* mean by "correct" may not be at all what someone else means. I tend to use verbal corrections most of the time because at home I usually train off leash, but obviously there are circumstances where that's not sufficient to get the point across and stronger means are necessary.


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## mjbgsd

I really enjoyed reading this, a lot of this makes sense.









Anne, I wanted to ask, so a puppy doesn't have to be petted by a stranger to be socialized with people if they just don't care to have strangers petting them? Will this effect there ob career in the future?


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## tedebear12

Just because a dog is quick reacting or grabs the sleeve doesn't mean he is of strong nerves. You can train a weak dog to take the sleeve ....in fact, you can train a weak dog to do anything. Having a lot of conformation in my background, a very famous GSD handler at one time used to say that the best showdogs had a bit of fear in them...you know why? Because the stress of the show and of someone running behind them made them pull out and look like a million bucks. 

I think the nervy type may have inadvertently been bred because they are quicker to react. This means that they will go off on a great number of threats and can be scary in that form. For the inexperienced, this looks like an impressive protection dog.

The trouble is....most nervy dogs react first, think later. They are guided by the animal part of the brain, the most primitive section. Hackles are an excellent sign as mentioned by someone above. This is an uncontrolled response to the environment and signals a dog unsure of the situation. 

Everyone will interpret the topic differnetly but unless you've had the more dangerous kind of nervy, it's easier to think it's not so bad. 

Kim


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## tedebear12

Okay ...I want to write one other note....Debbie ...if you want to privately e-mail me, I can help you immensely. I don't know if you can access people's info but here it is [email protected] ....

No ...not all dogs mature out of this problem. No, it does not all have to do with leadership. Yes, training makes it far more manageable. 

Your dog is very similar to mine. The reason you see it at 4 months and not sooner is that the puppy brain begins to develop and mature. Your dog will not reach his final 'development' until social maturity at 2 1/2 years-3 years of age. This is usually where it will top out. 

I speak of this partly from experience and also I am a professional trainer. Yes, most trainers do not mess with this, and yes, the best way to learn how is to deal with the problem dogs. Everyone wants an easy dog, and sometimes you are blessed with more difficult ones. They are the ones to teach you to learn and grow. 

These dogs act out this way not so much to protect you but also to partly protect themselves. It occurs around you because you create a safety bubble. I would never correct the actual aggression. I would never, ever want my dog to assume it was okay to feel the same way but not be able to express it. The barking and growling is the only way to express, and if you take it away, you can often create a dog that remains uncomfortable, allows the 'threat' closer, and silently bites when he doesn't know what to do....putting up hackles during these incidents is a HUGE clue for discomfort. 

Instead, he has to have a rock solid foundation of commands. I am a primarily positive trainer, but I will tell you that the commands must be reliable. A solid Come, Watch Me, and Leave it are the most important. Practice these within the dog's comfort zone (without a reaction). Because of the high need for reliance, there is a high need for clear consequence on the first refusal. Depending on your dog and his head, it might be a shock collar at low level. Usually only takes 2-3 mistakes for the dog to decide to listen quicker. 

Then, you can correct the dog for not listening to a 'command' and not the act of aggression. Combine this with desensitization and counter-conditioning to situations that cause problems, and you will take the dog a lot further. 

How far? Just depends on a lot of factors. 

Kim 
PS E-mail if you want to discuss further.


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## debbiebrown

very good advice, and alot of different approaches here........

and its definitely been a huge learning experience for me having a dog like him. i have owned gsd's most of my life and have had some things now and then, but this is by far the most challenging......

let me give more history on him.......he started pup classes at 12 weeks old. the first time i ever took him into the class room he immediately tried to get out the door, and jumped on the window trying to get out several times during the class..........then every time after that when we drove up he didn't want to get out of the car.........now i know puppies can be like this, but this was extreme......it never really got any better going to this place for classes. so, i decided that maybe there was somthing about this place he was uncomfortable about. so we changed to a different place.......same thing at the next place......but, we stayed and did more pup classes, basic OB, and advanced OB....he got a bit better, but would go through bouts in class where he would start wining which told me he was uncomfortable with something, but then the next minute he was ok, i would get his attention, try to keep him busy, etc......then we went to Agility,,,,,,it was very challenging in the beginning, i really didn't think he was going to do well because there was so much going on around him, alot of stimulating distractions..........like border collies staring him down, dogs running through the course, and trying to keep him from running out etc................i hung in there even though i was a bit frustrated at times..we did overcome the running out and i kept at it when most people would have given up........we got to the point where everything clicked in Agility, and i felt like we were finally a team, he progressed at enjoying running through the course with me, without paying attention to anything else.that was a huge accomplishment...

so, we moved inside for agility because of thew colder weather this fall........a very kayotic class.the trainer believes in the doggie day care thing, where she lets the dogs run around to play before and after class.which is fine.......the problem was from the time we walked into the room, dogs are rushing up to us jumping, etc.....this put him on defense from the moment we walked into the room...........so, we get in the room, an aussie stares him down and starts a fight......the trainer put them both down and managed the situation, but i was not comfortable with the aussie and the owner because the dog was not under control............so, then my dog starts growling at people in class that he's known for at least a year...this told me he was uncomfortable.......i don't think he likes the small area, feels confined and uncomfortable with the kayos going on..........so, i made the decision to get the heck out of there because the trainer wasn't going to change anything for me, and i knew at this point i needed to back up with Sam and start things from the very beginning, with people, situations etc......so, yes, i am starting all over again at square one............i changed facilities again, and have had a few private lessons with him, and am starting class again...............i am actually wondering if i should expose him to inside agility in a small area with to much going on right now......the trainer has small classes, more controlled inviroment.........

As far as him and people, he's never going to be a dog letting people fall all over him, which is fine.........i took him to work with me every day for the first year where he met a different person every half hour, they gave him treats, etc....no bad experiences.......but, sudden moves from people, eye contact, certain body lauguage, and men mostly trigger him, although at any given time he could react to a woman.......so, at this point i am really trying to find the right place for him and do whats necessary to get him somewhat comfortable in his skin................so, getting info on what this dog is made of and figuring out what makes him tick will only help me help him.....


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## JakodaCD OA

I think what I would do, is what Ann suggested in a few posts ago, about making him "do" something prior to a reaction. (tho I know you may not know when something will trigger him since he isn't consistent in his reactions)..However, I think at this point, I anyhow, would consider every situation a possible trigger and amp up the solid obedience on him prior to anything..

I also would print out what ann wrote in that post and show it to your trainer so she can get some insite into him as well.

In my situation when reprogramming masi, I tended to do just that.
IF a person/dog was approaching, what worked for her was a "leave it" or a "sit", as soon as they were in site. A good GIRL, was her reward, (since she is much more motivated by praise/toy reward vs food)..and on we'd go. This even has helped with say, dogs approaching that are lunging/barking at her, she has learned to basically ignore that bad behavior. 

With people, well Masi is never going to be in love with everyone, she's a "watcher" and would prefer to just sit there, while I may be having a conversation with someone, and just observe. I don't have a problem with that either. At home, she'd let an axe murderer in my house and be all over him like her long lost friend)

In the end, as long as I can take this dog into any situation, (which thankfully I can) and she goes with the flow, I'm a happy camper))

I really think alot has to do with maturity as well, I have always found my males mature at a much slower rate than my females. 

I like Ann's advice and think you should implement with him))


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## Vandal

I have no intention of getting into a debate about your dog but I will say this. You have to decide what you are going to do and stick with it. Simply trying to label your dog is not going to do anything for him or you. 
Remember, first the dog needs to know obedience and then you use the obedience to help the dog become more confident. The dog is corrected for not being obedient, not for growling but growling is not part of obedience. You cannot correct insecurity out of the dog but you can help him be more confident using obedience. If you want to just call him nervy or weak and tell yourself you can't do anything about it, that's your choiice but like I said, if you really want to help the dog, you have to decide which approach you are going to use and stick with it.
I would not be submerging that dog in stress while trying to solve the problem. He was completely under water in your indoor class description. The dogs learn they can't trust new environments , ( or you), when things get that out of control in new places.

He needs to learn the obedience, and then slowly introduce him to new things and situations all over again using the obedience. The idea that you should allow a dog to growl and bark so he can " express himself" is silly . However, you cannot put him in a situation that is overwhelming for him and then try to "make him" be calm or correct him for being insecure. It has to be a one step at a time approach and you have to be fair to him as far as what you expect him to be able to endure. It sounds like the dog has been a bit tramatized so, you have to have control of the environments you place him in and clearly you did not, and could not, in the agility class situation. He is just not the dog for that environment.

Your demanor and attitude about it will make all the difference. If you are uncertain about what you are doing or allow these situations to happen where the dog is just overwhelmed, you will see no improvement.


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## debbiebrown

Diane,
i do totally agree that i need to treat every situation as a possible trigger...and that was great advice! i think one of my mistakes was letting my guard down thinking he was ok with some things and expecting him to progress from his good experiences.......again, dealing with special cases, you need to treat each situation like it was the first time. i guess this will be an ongoing thing.............and it may very well be the way its got to be for his life span...


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## JakodaCD OA

and I sooooo agree with ^^^^^ .

if I had kept subjecting masi to those puppy classes that were uncontrolled, wigged her out completely, I'd have alotta problems on my hands right now. After the first 3 classes, she did NOT want to enter the place, and I couldn't blame her. That's when I yanked her out. 

I felt terrible knowing I should have known better. Thank god this dog has good recovery.

When I started at another place,(not a puppy class but obed class) where it was soooo much more controlled, wasn't 'crazy', it wasn't a free for all, she was allowed to just observe for 4 weeks before I started,,my gosh what a difference! She would lay down and fall asleep on the floor!!! When that happened I knew she was in the right place.

She WANTED to go there, she was excited and happy to be there))...ok done rambling..


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## JakodaCD OA

^^^ meant ann)) I was posting when you were...

and your right, it may be an on going thing,,I think it's ALWAYS an ongoing thing with our dogs..but I do think it can be managed if he get's clear consise (sp) rules/boundaries and consistency..


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## holland

This was a really interesting thread to read...we are in a really busy rally class...rorie loves it ...she is not dog aggressive but she does not like other dogs in her face (the instructor puts it that way too) I really think keeping her focused on me helps... I also think its a great experience having to work around so many distractions


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## debbiebrown

thats about where i am with him at this point........as i explained i have taken him out of stressful situations.......remember this has been a learning experience for me as well..............
i am not going to feel like i have failed him when i have done nothing but try to help him......a normal dog would have thrived in the things i have done with him.......

i can go back to square one and start over with counter-conditioning which i am doing......and will work on things slowly,
and realize he will probably never be able to be in stressful inviroments with alot going on..........

i chose to keep this dog knowing what i had.........please give me credit for trying and wanting to learn how to handle things from here.......


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## debbiebrown

so, Anne,
are you saying he should not be in classes at all at this time? or maybe never?


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## Vandal

I certainly am not suggesting that you should consider yourself a failure. I am suggesting that you accept that you have made mistakes, however. That's all part of learning. I cringe when I think of the things I did with my dogs years and years ago. Now I know better. 

Again, it comes down to being fair to the dog. You have to look at him and accept where he is right now with a goal to progress. You cannot just avoid stress, I am not suggesting that either. However, you have to introduce it slowly and avoid the situations that you know will overwhelm him. This dog needs to learn that he can trust you and new places.

As was already mentioned, dogs like this will teach you a great deal, so, appreciate that part of the dog and maybe forgive him for being who he is. The dog needs you to believe that you can help him get better. The emphasis needs to shift away from only looking at the dog's "deficiencies" to what you can do to help him improve. Always looking at what the dog is doing wrong gets in the way. I wish I had a better way of explaining what I mean but it matters that you have the right mind set about this.


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## Vandal

> Originally Posted By: debbiebso, Anne,
> are you saying he should not be in classes at all at this time? or maybe never?


I am suggeting that you work your way up to a class situation. Also, maybe go look at what goes on at the classes you are considering BEFORE you take the dog there. Like what Diane talked about. Find the right place for that dog where he can feel better and feel better consistently. Avoid places where you have no control over the environment and where things can get out of control. 
I just don't put my dogs in places where there are other dogs running around uncontrolled. That to me is just kind of crazy and serves no purpose other than making for an absolutely insane environment. It is impossible and unfair to ask one dog to behave while the rest are agitating and provoking him. Ugg, MY nerves could not handle that.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I am REALLY surprised that an agility instructor would recommend or even allow dogs to run around together before or after class. The puppy classes I took were almost completely off leash, but all the dogs were young puppies, and even then there was some structure, we were working on obedience skills with short play breaks, and then calling the pups out of play to work with us some more, and releasing to play. And they were not running around uncontrolled either, everyone in class was instructed to supervise play and redirect the more boisterous puppies away from the less confident ones. An hour class is a long time for a 10 week old puppy to remain focused. 

But after puppy classes I've never been in a class that allows dogs to be out of the owner's control. In fact, they've always made a point of talking about that the first day of class, that dogs are not allowed to greet each other. And especially in agility which is highly stimulating, where many dogs get very worked up and might tend to be more reactive than they would in other circumstances. Again, a special point was made that many dogs do not want other dogs in their face or up their butts, and it was up to each of us to make sure that we kept our dogs under control to prevent that from happening.


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## Vandal

Last comment. Do not make the mistake of using obedience to control the dog and then asking him to endure things that he clearly does not like within his space. He should be allowed his space which to me means, he should tolerate people within a normal distance. So, if you are there with your dog and someone comes up and is just standing there talking to you, yes, the dog has to behave and stay in the sit and be quiet. However, you do not want to force him to sit there and tolerate that same person moving too close or trying to pet him while you control him with corrections and commands. That is a recipe for disaster. Same with other dogs. They should be kept out of your dog's space and be under control where they are not allowed to try to provoke your dog. Your dog needs to understand that when he controls himself, nothing bad happens to him.


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## debbiebrown

yes, i have common sense enough to know not to ask the dog to endure more than he's capable of making him sit, down in stressful situations....where people, or dogs are in his space...

people like me go to training classes.... beleiving its a positive trying to keep an open mind about the way a trainer teaches a class or runs a class............as i said earlier its very hard to find really good resources, training people that actually have a clue can pinpoint issues and help you deal with them....most of these ya hoos just want your money and don't care about whether their class type is good for your dog or not.

yea.i have learned alot...and i have also learned to go with my gut feeling on some of this stuff.........

as far as agility, i got him into it to build his confidence, now someone says its made things worse...........

i cannot keep him hidden for sure...........i am going to talk with the new trainer. observe the class.....etc....i know the atmosphere is more controlled, but, also want to see what kind of dogs and owners are there.......also mention to the trainer to let people in the class know about Sam, so they understand what i am trying to do......

i can't imagine how many people there is like me out there, that have gone through this.......tried to get the right guidence and its just not available to them.....

thanks Anne, i do appreciate the input...


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## rokanhaus

Just me, but I would NOT say a word to the other people in the class. It will only possibly give them apprehension towards your dog and could very well feed into his feelings. It shouldn't matter. You are the protector of his personal space. I am that way with all my dogs. If some idiot gets too close for "me", I take charge and put my dog behind me and immediately tell the owner to back away. 

Where I take Doc to class there are several dogs that have issues. And this is an AKC COMPETITION CLASS?!! The instructor knows it, many of us handlers also realize it, and we all respect each other's space. When I take a dog or even a puppy to class it is not to meet and greet other dogs. I am there to train and for the dog to focus on me, and me alone...the entire time, for the entire class. Even if the instructor is talking, or we are waiting our turn, my dog is ALWAYS busy doing something. I am constantly engaged into what my dog is doing. This is especially important to me when I have a puppy...as the whole reason I am there is to teach the pup to ignore what is going on around you and just pay attention to me. There is simply no time allowed to look around the room or think about what is going on over "there". 

My dogs are great with people and very tolerant of other dogs, but it doesn't matter. I don't trust other people when they believe thier dog is ok. So again, I simply manage our little 3ft X 3 ft area, and don't allow anyone or anything to enter our space, period. I don't make excuses or apologize, I just tell them to please back off but in a tone where it is really not an option.

If you are assertive and confident about defending your personal space, it is amazing how relaxed a dog can suddenly become....

In fact I just did a private lesson, a teenage girl, obnoxious neighborhood bully of a dog...Nervous dog. She was nervous walking the dog, the dog was in complete control of the walk. It was quite a scene. right down to neighbors seeing up coming and ducking into their houses! A few lessons on attitude, shoulders back, head up and looking forward, stand up straight, walk confidently and like you DARE anyone to come with in your personal space, slack leash with only pop if you need it, keep the dog by your side and the transformation was REMARKABLE. Within 20 minutes I was rushing up on her with my dog (and her demanding I back off), having people jog or walk by here..and it was PERFECT. Her mom and I were so proud of her. 

Anyway, my point is don't leave it up to the instructor to other class members. It is up to YOU. And when you take complete control, the dog knows it.


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## Vandal

Exactly. Controlling your environment means just what Kandi said. I tell people they have to develop an affective "stink eye" where people are more concerned about YOU than your dog. lol. No one comes near me when I am walking or working my dogs. I have also found I can stop small children in their tracks with that look.









Edit to add:

What Kandi said explained better what I was saying about your attitude. It makes a HUGE difference when you are confident and "in charge".


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## debbiebrown

yes, i agree with all of that.....but, i also know there is no way i can possibly control every situation in life, whether it be in class or otherwise............and though i believe its a great thing to keep Sam's attention, i also believe he should be allowed to look at the world around him, which is a reality.........by not allowing him to observe things at least for short spans how is he ever going to face reality?

i feel he should stay in classes, and i need to have a discussion with the trainer to let her know what my plan of action is......although i was going to begin a new agility class next week, i am now wondering if thats not a great idea right now. to much excitement and stress............


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## debbiebrown

i appreciate all the comments, but i also know that alot of the advice comes from SchH trainers, which is great....but, some SchH training is geared a bit different than regular training in the general public or even AKC training...which is what most trainers around here follow......

yes, i can do my own thing............and as soon as i come up with a plan of action i will follow through, just need to digest all the positive suggestions and work something out....alot to think about....


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## Vandal

I let the dogs look at things but only when they are under obedience, like a sit. I don't allow them to do that until they are starting to completely lose the connection with me though. I am there reminding them, either in a passive or more assertive way, that there are rules when they look. 

If I am heeling with the dog or doing actual obedience, well yeah, they must be paying attention to me. 

No one can control everything but you can certainly try to manage things and I think that is the point we are tryng to make. Just have a better idea of what you are walking into when you have your dog with you and certainly at this point in time.


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## Vandal

I understand completely about worrying the people in the class by telling them about the dog. They will not behave normally around your dog and that is the last thing he needs to see.


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## debbiebrown

i can see the logic in that...........but, also on the other side of the coin, i don't want anyone walking up behind my back and patting him on the head either..........to totally control the space every second is not an easy thing to do.........and i do not want any set backs at this point.............the general public are not dog smart........meaning i see a nice german shepherd i am going to talk to him and pat him, etc, etc........

yes, managing things is the goal..its not as easy as its made to sound, and certainly takes alot of practice a disapline.....of which i am obviously willing to do....and will do, but its not going to happen over night.......

i understand i have to be totally aware of his body lauguage at all times, learn to read every signal he gives me.......


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausI don't make excuses or apologize, I just tell them to please back off but in a tone where it is really not an option.


 I do the same, I think this attitude comes with owning a shepherd. Normally I am a big people pleaser and but not when it comes to my dog and his emotional and physical wellbeing.


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## Vandal

There is a point where a person has to stop talking because they are just talking TOO much. I feel I have exceeded that point. I am afraid the "fresh air" I offered earlier might now be considered "hot air", so, this is my last post.











> Quote:yes, managing things is the goal..its not as easy as its made to sound, and certainly takes alot of practice a disapline.....of which i am obviously willing to do....and will do, but its not going to happen over night.......


We are talking here on a dog board and therefore, some things get lost in translation. I don't think anyone meant to imply this was easy. It requires all the things you just listed and more.

As for SchH trainers. What I have learned and what I use to help just pet clients came from my training experience in SchH. People who have studied SchH and understand aggression because of the protection work, are much more equipped to help you.


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## Castlemaid

debbie, watch your "but" statements. You have a "but" rebutal in everyone of your replies. That automatically sets up an "ain't going to work" mindset. You'd be surprised at how empowered you will feel and how much more open-minded you will be if you try to ditch the "buts" and just focus positively on the advice. I know. I used to be a "yeah, but" person, and I can't tell you how much I have grown as an individual in all areas of my life since someone pointed that habit out to me, and I made the effort to allow my thinking to be more inclusive and more flexible. 

Try it! It really works!


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## GSD07

Debbie, even though sometimes you feel so frustrated you are not a failure and you do deserve a lot of credit for learning and helping Sam to integrate into the world. 

About body language and triggers, after you both are on the same page and know a set of very consistent rules you won't need to be on super guard constantly, and it will be the same as driving a car. We dont' think about the process of driving, we just assess the situation on the road but do not stress about it, but in rare situations we do stress and use our experience to manage it and keep everyone safe.

I kept thinking about the great advice given in this thread and comparing it with my own experience, and I did come to the conclusion that sometimes less training and exposure can be beneficial. 

Here's a recent example. My husband has been in the hospital for three weeks so three weeks Anton spent home alone with only two walks around the block and a potty break in the middle of the day. Another three months after that he just spent time with me hiking and walking and playing, I was too exhausted even for any serious ob training. To my surprise he became so much more focused on me, calmer with other dogs we encounter, and his obedience became so much better. Go figure.


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## debbiebrown

i agree Anne, i think we have covered it..thanks again for the input.........i do want to keep this thread on a positive note, as alot of people have appreciated me posting this, and are going through the same issues...

i will keep everyone updated.........

thanks Oksana, you are always a great support!


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## JakodaCD OA

ann just wanted to say, naaaa your never full of hot air))) I enjoy reading your insite))) and I love using the "stink eye" )) 

debbie I know you have gotten some wonderful advise and I'm going to say one last thing,,my 2 cents,, I don't think I would do inside agility with Sam at this point...I know he enjoyed the outside aspect of it, and since he enjoyed it, that is what I'd do in the spring..

As for the inside obedience, I would definately take a long hard look at just what that consists of. 

If it ws a set up like I got Masi into, I'd say go for it...Just being able to go with her and let her 'watch' what was going on (she was behind a gated area ) helped her 100%. It was a slow process, but worth it, 

I can't answer whether you should have the trainer tell people or not. My trainer did, because I was unsure of exactly how she'd respond to being in a class with all ages, sizes, on a 6 ft loose leash, and yes, The first week, everyone avoided the big mean shepherd, however she was the best behaved one in the class!!!! minded her own business, did her thing, and was having fun doing it..as the weeks progressed, she even made a few doggie friends in class , I relaxed, she relaxed it's paid off in the long run ...and she wasn't being "avoided" anymore)))

Ok am done to,,this has been a great topic ))


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## debbiebrown

anyone is still free to give their experiences with these issues....don't feel like your hyjacking the thread.........its nice to hear what others have been through....


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## duramax

Debbieb, just read the posts and advice all these people have given, wow is all I can say. I wish I would have known about this forum as little as 4 months ago. All the problems you're trying to work through are a lot of the same I see myself and my shepherd went through. I thank you for your being honest with your problems with your dog. And I thank everyone else for the insite on how to manage and fix the issues. I wish I had most of you all for neighbors, but this forum is the next best thing. That way no one would have to give me their "stink eye". LOL. Great lessons on here for me.


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## cliffson1

Debbie, I'd say Anne and Kandi, Oksana, all pretty much said the same thing. They gave you generic things to do proactively to get a handle on him and YOU. This is good stuff, that's why I sat back and read....I would read over those people's post four/five times. Sometimes after a period the lights go on as to WHY they are suggesting what they are, thus helping you...Good Luck!
Also, the advice on the"but" is also good!


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## debbiebrown

to bad all these people weren't a bit closer......LOL

BUT, thats ok....................................all good advice, that will be put to good use.......no BUTT'S intended....


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## RubyTuesday

LOL, Clifton nailed it. Read & re-read Anne's, Kandi's & Oksana's posts. There's a wealth of insight & info there! IF I could get a brain transplant I'd want Anne as a donor. I don't do SchH & I have no interest in it, but it makes sense that knowledgeable, experienced SchH people must thoroughly know & understand aggression, including fear aggression.



> Quote:I didn't know what I was doing, and most of the people trying to tell me what to do probably didn't either.


Lies, I encountered exactly this with Cochise, my old Sibe. The trainers & behaviorists I talked to had overwhelmingly worked with Goldens & GS & had no experience with Huskys. They didn't grasp how different the mind set is in a Siberian Husky. Numerous Husky people offered the wise but useless advice, _don't get cats_. (I had a predatory aggression problem) He was fine with my original cat which foolishly led me to think adding a pair of kittens was safe. Wrong! Dangerously, _stupidly_ wrong. Eventually I realized that realistically I'd have to figure it out myself. Thankfully, both kits survived my dumb mistake & will be 15 this June.

Debbie, a class I took Djibouti to had 26 dogs which included a lot of aggressive, highly reactive dogs. (Over a year later they still discuss how many problem dogs were in that class) The instructors emphasized the need to respect personal space. Friendly, social dogs weren't permitted to just barge up to other dogs. (Which was a learning experience for Djibouti & I). People with aggressive or fearful dogs participated at a comfortable remove from the rest of the class. They were never forced or crowded. (The facility is huge). The transformation in those dogs was amazing. Eventually all of 'em calmly participated, though some maintained a distance. All quit the incessant lunging, hackling, snarling & barking they'd started with. They became at least cautiously approachable by other class members & dogs. Admittedly, I don't know if the class became yet another 'comfort zone' & whether or not the improvement extended to outside the class.



> Quote:You'd be surprised at how empowered you will feel and how much more open-minded you will be if you try to ditch the "buts" and just focus positively on the advice.


Lucia, that's intriguing advice. With a bit of tweaking I think I can incorporate it at work! (We don't have 'advice' per se though there are still a lot of 'buts' dragging things down) Thanks.


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## zyppi

Think if boils down to s<u>emantics</u>.

Semantics
is the study of meaning, usually in language. The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that_ comes down to word selection or connotation_


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## holland

Think that there are some really knowledgeable trainers in AKC too...you can get advice from all different places it doesn't just have to be schutzhund


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## cliffson1

I agree wholeheartedly!!


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## debbiebrown

i totally agree......as i said above pretty slim picking with good trainers in this area.......i have found a new facility........have had a few private sessions, and we are starting another class this week........a very small class, a more controlled inviroment..this will give both Sam and i a chance to work on things with less distractions and building from there.......


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## debbiebrown

i can't change genetics...............In hopes that with time and determination we can get to a better place.......


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## SuzyE

I didn't read thru all this but I want to give you hope! Paige was like Cujo-no kidding. I called some trainers when she was 3 and told them I have a very fear aggressive GSD, they said bring her in. My dog was the worst case scenario and 6 weeks later she was a changed dog.
they taught me that training was black/white=right/wrong and to quit worrying about the source.Praise for right, correct for wrong. It wasn't all pretty but these people were fearless. You could tell Paige wanted to attack them but they never gave up on us. 6 weeks later these people were arguing over who could give paige their french frys, a dog who never took food from anyone but me.
Yes you can get your dog to a level that the dog can have a good life. It may never play at a dog park but it still can go on trails with other dogs.You absolutly must be in control with a dog like this but you still can do stuff.
your can-do attitude and the attitude of your trainers is what will make a difference. too many trainers are afraid of GSDs themselves. good luck.


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## debbiebrown

thanks for thw inspriation Suzy..........!

that is the key, forseeing and controlling situations.....as Anne said control with Obedience and Making the decisions for this dog.............


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## LisaT

Just got around to reading this thread, GREAT THREAD, a must read for a LOT of GSD owners. 

Wanted to add that I had no clue that these are SchH folks giving advice - the advice is rock solid no matter what the dog is doing. 

There was something that Vandal said that I think got lost, and I think, from my experience, is huge:


> Quote:As was already mentioned, dogs like this will teach you a great deal, so,* appreciate that part of the dog and maybe forgive him for being who he is.* The dog needs you to believe that you can help him get better. The emphasis needs to shift away from only looking at the dog's "deficiencies" to what you can do to help him improve. Always looking at what the dog is doing wrong gets in the way. I wish I had a better way of explaining what I mean but it matters that you have the right mind set about this.


I added the emphasis. 


I think that this advice is particularly important in situations that have been develping for a long time, over months. There then is this dynamic between the handler and the dog that becomes *not* productive. I've been there with Max. It's really hard for the dog to have confidence when the handler has no confidence in the dog.


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## SuzyE

yes and it does take an extra effort with this type of dog, you must be vigilant, but Paige is 11 yrs old and never bite anyone. God knows she wanted to but she never has.She has a spicy personality and there are things that she can't do that her brother does but that's the breaks.


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## Barb E

This is a long thread and worth every minute of reading, thank you to all who contributed


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