# My GSD attacked my other dog



## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

Yesterday I had my 3 year old male GSD and our 10 week old female GSD puppy outside playing. I threw a ball to my 3 year old and our puppy stepped in front of him just then and he knocked her over. She started screaming really loud out of shock I imagine and our 3 year old was immediately on top of her growling! I pulled him off and picked her up to make sure she was ok, but the older one kept jumping up at her in my arms. With all the commotion my 3 year old LhasaPoo came running outside and when he came up to us our GSD turned and attacked him. He bit him on his head hard causing damage to his optic nerve causing blindness in that eye. Our puppy is perfectly fine thank goodness, but our LhasaPoo is horribly injured with a puncture would on his head and the permanent loss of sight in his left eye!! As you can imagine we are completely heartbroken and are at a loss about what to do. We love all of our dogs like children and each one of them represents our family. We have to look out for our injured dog now - what do we do about our beloved GSD? I refuse to "put him down" - he has always been what we called the "perfect" dog - so sweet and loving and this seeming came out of nowhere. We adopted him nearly 2 years ago and he has always been a wonderful dog - otherwise we would have never considered getting a second GSD!!

Sorry for the long post - I just want to spell it all out - please help if you can.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

have you taken him (the GSD) to the vet to rule out a thyroid/neuroligcal issue


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## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

No - I hadn't thought it could be a medical problem ... could something like this cause him to suddenly react this way?


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## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I am far from an expert but I am wondering if perhaps your 3 yr. old is a tad jealous of the new pup?

I know others are going to surface with some good, sound advice for you...

Our GSD female hated our neighbors female cocker spaniel and vice versa. The cocker was out loose one day and Kayla was on her leash and the cocker came over attacking Kayla...she took it for awhile but then reached down and bit her head. It sounds similar to what happened at your house...the cocker had a puncture wound on the top of her head and a puncture wound into her nasal cavity...thank heavens she was OK...but the outcome could have been quite serious....a little dog is no competition to a GSD...

I would keep them separated for the time being...

GOOD LUCK...dogs fight and unfortunately little ones suffer the most...Judy


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You do not have to put down your 3 yr old GSD. *This was an accident caused by the drama of the puppy screaming and subsequent concern and chaos.* 

Management and control is what you just need to work on at this point. One of the reasons I have about a 5 year split between my dogs in ages, is I can really have one dog trained, socialized and reliable before adding the crazy of a puppy. And then I have to spend way more one on one time with this new puppy... playing, socializing, exercising, dog classes. With little guilt about the older dog cause they had their 5 years in the 'sun'.

I don't really play ball with all my dogs when one of them is a puppy. Too much of a set up for a situation that occured to you. Instead I take them all for off leash hikes so the older dog can easily get away and do her own thing, while my puppy is learning to look to and listen to me. 


THIS is what I do with my dogs when I have a puppy...





 
Good luck with your injured LhasaPoo. And though I haven't had such a serious injury with doggy drama in my house, I HAVE had stitches with them, and used it as a learning experience of how NOT to manage the dogs in the future.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

BTW, when my puppies scream cause they are injured (usually being a drama queen and not injured at all, just scared) ALL the other dogs in the area come running over cause they are worried/concerned. It's EXTREMELY STRESSFUL for all involved, dog and human. So if anyone (dog or human) over reacts and snaps..... it's a normal (though not wanted) reaction to what is probably an ABNORMAL situation for those dogs. 

New puppy, new screaming injury. For all you know your older GSD was so 'worried' about the puppy she went after the new dog on scene to keep it away and protect the puppy....

DO NOT BLAME your older GSD. If you know this dog. Have trained this dog. Socialized this dog. And this is extremely out of character............PAY ATTENTION to what you know. And prevent the situation from occuring again, rather than playing a blame game.


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## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

Yes, this thought had crossed my mind that he was just trying to keep the other dog away from our puppy and not trying to hurt him at all.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

firedancer40 said:


> Yes, this thought had crossed my mind that he was just trying to keep the other dog away from our puppy and not trying to hurt him at all.


That would be my guess. And it would be easy for a big dog also freaked, to over react and bite too hard, specially with a little dog in it's mouth....

Take your dogs hiking and no more ball in the yard until the puppy is much older and can take a terrible tumble!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I had something very similar happen and in the end my shih tzu lost an eye. The dogs involved did not have something wrong with them. Nothing "snapped" in them. I did learn a tough lesson in managing a multi-dog household. I believe the events probably played out much as MRL described above.


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## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

Thanks for all of the advice everyone.

Samba - were your dogs able to get along after some time? Was your shih tzu scared of the other dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sorry your lhasa was injured, but I sooooooo agree with the above posts.

Three dog dynamics can also be a little different that two dog dynamics.

I have three right now (have always had 4) two aussies and my 2 year old female gsd.

The two girls get along GREAT, sometimes when they get a tad to rough, the male aussie feels the need to be a buttinsky and things can get a little weird. 

And Maggie is right, when one gets 'hurt' and goes into drama mode,,they ALL have to get in on what's going on...

Hope all works out,,


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I thought that Shih tzu's eyes were a little on the delicate side due to the formation regarding the eye size and the socket. If this is true, perhaps the 'bite' wasn't as bad as it looked and sounded and was really just very scary for all. It did result in a horrible injury, and I am so very sorry to hear that. 

If your little Shih tzu is anything like my sister's, he is the King of all he sees. This was just as scary for him as it was for you!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I agree with all the above posters.

I hope your little one is okay and recovers well..


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Agree with all the above posts - there is no reason at all to put down the GSD.
You should always be careful when there are multiple dogs in a melee. 
Dogs can get hyped up and be put in drive, then they may not be keeping a clear head. (a good reason to avoid dog parks)
A close analogy is like a bar fight between drunk young guys - they just start swinging at everything they see coming at them even if it happens to be their best friend.
I once had a female puppy that got underneath my 2 male GSDs when the boys were having their usual roughhousing wrestling match. My younger male turned on the puppy and to my surprise my older male who was her best friend and protector turned on her too as she was at the bottom of the pile (it is very common in dog pack melees that anyone that ends up at the bottom of the pile gets "piled upon"). I rushed in hauled off the 2 males to rescue the puppy. She was screaming like crazy and I thought she was seriously injured.
I inspected her and there was not a single scratch on her. Not even a single hair was wet. None of my males had put a mouth on her but they just terrified her deliberately. My male GSDs just gave her the fright of her life. It was pack discipline.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your 3 year old dog weighs 75 -- 90 pounds? Your 10 week old puppy weighs 15 -- 20 pounds? The little dog weighs? 

Throw the ball. Large dog bumps or steps on the puppy and causes a serious injury -- it IS possible. Puppy is hurt or just terrified and screams. Dog's prey drive or pack drive comes in, and he turns on the puppy. You rush up, pick up the puppy and cuddle it in your arms. I don't even know what message to the dog that is, but the little dog comes up and experiences the redirected aggression from the big dog. 

We need to protect little dogs and puppies from the sheer size of our bigger dogs. 

Instead of picking up and cuddling the puppy, you should have gotten the big dog under control and put him in a crate or kennel and then helped the puppy. I am talking about seconds, either call the dog to you, or grab him by the tail and pull him off the little one, kennel him, and then go and determine the damage. 

I am sorry your little dog got hurt. Play with your big dog by himself. Normally, when you have a dog that is the leader dog, the other dogs run with him for a toy, but let him take the toy back. 

Lots of dog parks do not even allow toys because they can be a accelerant to fights. 

I am really sorry that this happened, but now you can adjust for it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

firedancer40 said:


> Thanks for all of the advice everyone.
> 
> Samba - were your dogs able to get along after some time? Was your shih tzu scared of the other dog?


Yes, they were able to get along for the years to come. The shih tzu was a soft dog and she was even less bold around them. I kept her out of the pack environment after that, but with individual dogs she was fine. It's a bad feeling when it happens. I feel for you. 

Our scuffle happened at the door. Doorways are a notoriously bad place for pack problems.


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## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

selzer said:


> Your 3 year old dog weighs 75 -- 90 pounds? Your 10 week old puppy weighs 15 -- 20 pounds? The little dog weighs?
> 
> Throw the ball. Large dog bumps or steps on the puppy and causes a serious injury -- it IS possible. Puppy is hurt or just terrified and screams. Dog's prey drive or pack drive comes in, and he turns on the puppy. You rush up, pick up the puppy and cuddle it in your arms. I don't even know what message to the dog that is, but the little dog comes up and experiences the redirected aggression from the big dog.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice - obviously I see that's what I should have done now. Our big boy must have thought that he hurt the puppy and I sent him the message that "yes, you must have" by picking her up and checking on her right then. It just never occured to me that he would feel he needed to protect her from our other dog who is the pack leader even though he's little. He's stopped the puppy from chasing him and grabbing his tail even and they've always been best buddies. We should have seen that we were confusing him and letting them play together was not a good idea, but everything had gone so well up to that point we assumed that everything was ok.

For now we are keeping everyone separated while our little guy heals. We do not plan to get rid of our GSD as this was only an accident and if he had been trying to hurt him the outcome would have been MUCH worse. I hate that our little guy has to suffer like this but the blame lies with me the human for not guiding my GSD through a traumatic situation for everyone involved. 

Hopefully we can help our little dog move on and not be afraid of our other GSD - the puppy will grow up soon and be a big girl and we don't want him to be afriad of her too. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts - although it doesn't make me feel any better about what happened - it's helped my husband and I feel better about keeping our family intact and not feeling that we have to give up our beloved rescue GSD. It's up to the little guy now to let us know he's ok with that decision - hopefully we will all be going on long walks together again someday.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Though I would keep the injured dog separate so he heals and isn't unintentionally harmed again.

I wouldn't keep the other 2 apart at all. THEY are fine as long as there's management and calmness. I'd be taking them both for walks/hikes. Letting them be in the house as long as you were also in the room with the puppy. They do have to learn to socialize and be with each other. 

PLUS you also need to be taking the puppy out and about to meet tons of other dogs..... 





 




 
You seen this yet?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-i-want-photos-puppies-being-socialized.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MaggieRoseLee, your advice is to put the ten week old puppy and the 3 1/2 year old dog that has already shown some serious aggression toward the puppy together right away again? 

I think that you really need to let the two get used to one another on lead, and you need to supervise completely, and you need to only allow the puppy and the dog to be loose together some of the time. The older dog may not like having the puppy jumping around him constantly. 

Since there has been aggression already, this puppy could become dog aggressive if it is attacked by this dog again. I would let the puppy get a little bit bigger -- maybe 3 1/2 to 4 months old before I would allow them to play together.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

selzer said:


> MaggieRoseLee, your advice is to put the ten week old puppy and the 3 1/2 year old dog that has already shown some serious aggression toward the puppy together right away again?


That is what I would do with the information given from my experience with my dogs. 

IF however, there was additional information like the older GSD has attacked other dogs before. Never trusted around other dogs. That would be different entirely.

I absolutely agree with you that "*The older dog may not like having the puppy jumping around him constantly*. " is a huge mistake and NOT allowed. I would not allow the puppy to be out of the room I'm in (so off with the older dog without me to supervise). But that would be happening anyways with me housebreaking.

And I would REALLY be upping the OFF leash exercise walking/hiking. In my experience, leashes tend to add to the stress (and entanglement) if there is an issue. Instead, with such an age difference in particular, off leash hiking allows the older dog to escape and do it's own thing, while the puppies stick with the humans. I have found if I am able to REALLY tire out the puppy, then when we are in the house, the puppy tends to NOT harass the older dog(s) trying to play cause that's normal behavior for a bored puppy. A tired puppy will listen and stop when told to stop, or will just go to sleep if I put it in the crate for a 'time out' to chill.

This is the way I would recommend they learn to get tired and put up with each other:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had watched your vid and that is nice. I have NO idea where around here there is anywhere that safe where my dogs could be off lead. 

I will take a dog off lead in the woods, but not multiples. 

It seems like this dog inadvertantly hurt the puppy, making it scream, then went after it, and then when she picked it up to make sure it was ok, the dog kept trying to get at it in her arms. When the little dog came up, it redirected the aggression toward the little dog causing the blindness. 

An eighty pound dog stepping or jumping on a youngster like this can cause injury without any aggression. If that happens again, a mile away from home, isn't it likely that the large dog may go after the pup again. I think it is very risky.

Also, if your older dog is well trained and used to hikes in the wilderness, that is great. Taking the puppy along is no huge feat. If you have a young dog that is not accostomed to this, and want to do that with him and a pup, unsure who else might be out there hiking or checking on their marijuana plants, I don't know, I think that is another thing altogether.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I am by no means as experienced as some of these people are but here is my 2 cents. I do agree almost completely with Maggieroselee. I really would not keep them seperated. Your nerves are probably on overdrive now with everything that happened but are you planning on keeping a 3 dog household all seperated for the rest of their lives? Highly unlikely and if you do highly stressful for you. They need to socialize with each other and other animals.

In my opinion the biggest mistake here that happened was you picking the puppy up. Your GSD was focused on chasing the ball which is a prey drive type of situation the other pup starts squeeling which generally will trigger something (which is why so many dogs loooove squeeky toys) its the animal instinct basically. So what happens when it hears the screams of the other animal?? You picked it up well now the chase is on and it has to get to it. It could have been prey drive trying to get the injured animal or it could've been him concerned for the pup it loves don't really no but either way it set him off and unfortunately the next thing that came by (your other dog) is who was used to release the frustration.

Not trying to lecture because you have taken on full responsibility which is great just trying to let you see exactly where it went wrong which was with picking the dog up. When 2 dogs square off because they are about to fight you are not supposed to move because it generally sets one of the other dogs off to attack same goes with using an E collar in that situation picking the pup just set off the chase and through the poor dog into over drive basically. Just learn from the mistake is the best thing you can do.

I would definitely go with MRL's suggestion and keep the 2 GSDs together but SUPERVISE she never said just let them hang out and be best buds keep a close eye on them. If the older one wanders off in the house fine let him get away but do not let the pup follow the pup stays with you. When the pup is napping in her crate take the older GSD outside ALONE to play ball and let him work off some energy. Save outside high play time like that until the pup gets older and can handle being knocked around.

I also might possibly when the pup is calm and worn out hold her and bring her in to see the injured dog if he is up to it. That way they still see each other but without you letting too much interaction so the dog can heal. Same thing with the older GSD when he is worn out maybe try letting them see each other through a baby gate and see how he reacts if they loved each other before you dont want them to live in fear or anger towards each other.

The only thing that made me say ALMOST with fully agreeing with MRL is not that I disagree with her but I slightly agree with Selzer on one thing. Not everyone has a place like that to go off leash. Plus if they are not used to it, it may turn out poorly and you want all positive experiences. If you are worried about that situation possibly let your pup stay off leash so she stays next to you (much like the adorable glory B) and if your adult GSd doesnt do well off lead or your worried about other people around maybe get a long 30 ft lead to put him on so he can wonder free from the pup and do his own thing but still under your control and keep a short leash in your pocket for the pup in case you need it.


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## firedancer40 (May 12, 2010)

Thanks Holmeshx2 - I certainly do not plan to keep them separated forever, but I'd like to try to introduce them back to the way things were before this happened slowly. Like you said I am extremely nervous and I don't want them feeding on my negative emotions. This was certainly the hardest lesson I have ever learned because it resulted in our little dog being terribly injured - but I know now that not only was letting our GSD play ball around the puppy dangerous, but also picking up the puppy rather than taking my GSD inside to another room sent the wrong signal. It's just after living with this sweet and gentle dog that never lets me out of his sight - it never crossed my mind that our other dog (who also lived with him during that time) could possibly be in danger. 

My husband and I are trying to put on a happy face for the little guy and trying to make sure he gets better. We did have him and the older GSD separated by a baby gate last night just like you said and our injured dog walked over and laid by it for several minutes. He doesn't seem to be terrified of him, just a little unsure. And obviously knowing that we have a little puppy that will grow up it wouldn't be good to let him think he should be afraid of him either. We just know how to prevent them from being placed in a dangerous emotionally charged situation like this. 

And in response to the suggestions about OFF leash walking - we do let our older GSD off leash in the park when no one is around a bit - but we don't have any place like the wonderful video from Maggie. I live in a Fort Worth, TX suburb and the only place OFF leash is even legal is a dog park which our dogs have never liked going to because we are forced to separate everyone and they end up running up and down the fence trying to be together again. Any woods here would have snakes or some kind of dangerous creature so this isn't really an option either. We are leash training the puppy now and I think we will feel comfortable walking her around the parks and neighborhood after he next round of shots. The GSDs can bond this way as it's our big guy's most favorite thing to do.

We will also try introducing the puppy to our injured dog when she is worn out - otherwise she tries to mess with him which just isn't safe for anyone right now. She's done pretty well about keeping her distance though - we fully realize that they all need to get to know each other and feel comfortable with one another. This is a work in progress. 

Thanks for all the advice from everyone - it really has helped - I just wish I had found out about some of these things earlier - but when you don't see a problem you don't ask right? Anway, we feel more comfortable about proceeding with our 3 dog household - our little guy is getting his spirit back. He ran around the living room all excited when I got home last night and brought me his toy - he was too tired to play - but to see him bark at every little noise outside and run around with his tail wagging sure does make us feel better.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hindsight is everything, I know. 

I just was much more careful about not having the dogs together when playing fetch or going in and out, etc. Anytime that emotions can get high or if there could be vying for position or possession, be very aware. They are dogs after all. Dogs react to situations, emotions, energy and situations. Their reactions are natural even though they are disconcerting to us sometimes. 

I had the shih tzu and learned to be careful what situations she was put in. We also have a border collie who is a thorn in the side to the German Shepherds, but can't finish the aggravation she starts. She has to be monitored in interactions also. A pack takes a lot more management and how the plan goes varies with the dogs in the dynamic.

I am glad your little guy is doing better.


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