# Where to begin when studying pedigrees/lines?



## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Hi guys, Im interested in learning more about how to read pedigrees and more about lines and how to interpret all that kind of info. I don't know much and Im just looking for a good place to start, like maybe a book, a website, a link to another post. Thanks a lot!


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I am going to be following this topic. I would love to learn more about reading pedigrees and interpreting origins based on the titles or dogs through the generations. Good question


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Faith without works is dead, as is studying without seeing/experiencing the breed in person can be be very misleading. Kinda like learning to read music, but not having good knowledge of the sound of the notes. Not trying to be a downer, but the reading of pedigrees opens up as you experience and recognize the nuance/development of the breed. When you go to shows/trials/training, and then go back and look at the pedigrees of the dogs you experienced training/showing/trailing.....then things start to have clarity.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the only way to learn is to watch dogs in training, find out their background, read, and reading comes from several different sources. There are video's of dogs that are well known producers. There are some facebook pages with discussions of certain dogs and their traits. 
I don't think there is any one source to purchase to gain that knowledge.
This fb page is closed, so admin has to approve, but it has some great discussions and files. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208199231798092&set=gm.728516843950810&type=3&theater
A DDR page with some good info on individual dogs: (edit~I haven't visited this page in awhile, lately it seems to be more photo ops and not discussion that there was when I use to go on there) https://www.facebook.com/groups/130851574384/


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a good club in Ventura Agaribay:
https://www.facebook.com/Schutzhund...a-1598662307027752/timeline?ref=page_internal


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Faith without works is dead, as is studying without seeing/experiencing the breed in person can be be very misleading. Kinda like learning to read music, but not having good knowledge of the sound of the notes. Not trying to be a downer, but the reading of pedigrees opens up as you experience and recognize the nuance/development of the breed. When you go to shows/trials/training, and then go back and look at the pedigrees of the dogs you experienced training/showing/trailing.....then things start to have clarity.


Oh thank you. THANK YOU!


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Faith without works is dead, as is studying without seeing/experiencing the breed in person can be be very misleading. Kinda like learning to read music, but not having good knowledge of the sound of the notes. Not trying to be a downer, but the reading of pedigrees opens up as you experience and recognize the nuance/development of the breed. When you go to shows/trials/training, and then go back and look at the pedigrees of the dogs you experienced training/showing/trailing.....then things start to have clarity.


Im an atheist but I see what you are trying to say and no, your not being a downer. I will never become a breeder/handler or and probably never compete dogs in shows. Im just interested in gaining some/any knowledge on lineage/pedigrees without having to raise a bunch of dogs lol. I like youtube training videos and shows but its hard to enjoy them when you don't know what **** is going on. Thats all. Just trying to not be as clueless.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks Onyx'girl & Steve! Thats what I was looking for. Some place to just read and start with that. There is so much info online it can be overwhelming.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

whoops I keep forgetting H* E* L* L* is considered a bad word- sorry


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@OP.....there is giant difference in being clueless and "reading pedigrees "as initially requested. you don't have to participate, but wherever you live, there are certainly Events and shows and trials that take place that you can attend and watch and then integrate the pedigree information to give understanding to what's on paper. To me reading pedigrees requires diligence both in classroom and in person. Doesn't have to participate though that gives better clarity, but you must be able to recognize what you read/talk about when presented.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Faith without works is dead, as is studying without seeing/experiencing the breed in person can be be very misleading. Kinda like learning to read music, but not having good knowledge of the sound of the notes. Not trying to be a downer, but the reading of pedigrees opens up as you experience and recognize the nuance/development of the breed. When you go to shows/trials/training, and then go back and look at the pedigrees of the dogs you experienced training/showing/trailing.....then things start to have clarity.


Met a guy recently who started telling me about certain dogs and breeders - and went into great depth - I asked him....

WHICH OF THESE DOGS DID YOU *SEE*?????? 

He had seen NOTHING of any of the dogs he cited - not one of them, not one of their littermates, not one dog of their half siblings, not one dog within 3 generations of their pedigree...........but he told me all about the breeder and what it produced. He was dead wrong. I had seen at least representatives of not one, not two - but ELEVEN different litters as well as a few of the sires and half siblings - and seen most more than one short glance.


You HAVE to see live dogs - you have to see related dogs - you have to see relationships in order to understand pedigrees. You have to see training as well as trials....you have to understand the <<gasp>> politics going on IN the trials as often as not....it is not just learning the names and numbers.

This guy could recite pedigrees - but his whole perception was skewed because all he ever saw was the titles and pedigrees in Germany that produced dogs who did well. 

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are some good books to read to understand where we (the breed) came from , to see if we are on course, deviated , or running out of control to the precipice.
Recommended authors , Brian Wooton,
Malcolm Willis , Nem and Percy Elliot,
Fred Lanting , Sue Barwig --- get
monthly journals , Schutzhund USA (interviews
breeders, trainers, decoys, judges )
Das Schaferhund Magazin , old German Shepherd
Reviews to see the evolution of a separate non-European fancy, Linda Shaw for a comprehensive
study on anatomy , visit the web sites of the great
producers -- go so far beyond your local training group - go to the best of the best , go international, include KNPV , Ring , go to the different registries of Belgium, Holland , France ,
learn patterns,
ask questions,

do not expect to be spoon fed . 

See dogs .


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

For the very basics: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/german-shepherd-dogs/how-to-read-a-pedigree/[URL="http://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/german-shepherd-dogs/how-to-read-a-pedigree/"URL]


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> @OP.....there is giant difference in being clueless and "reading pedigrees "as initially requested.


I am clueless when it comes to all that stuff and I do want to be able to understand, at least partially, how to read pedigrees. I guess people take reading them very seriously. Im a novice who doesn't have plans of becoming a serious handler/breeder. Just looking to learn a little.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

@ Carmspack - Not expecting to be spoon fed. I was looking for books and such so that I had a place to start. Thanks for the tittles.


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

@RunShepherdRun- thanks for the link! I love the slide show and how its not written in jargon! Super easy to understand for a newb like myself.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Agaribay805 said:


> @ Carmspack - Not expecting to be spoon fed. I was looking for books and such so that I had a place to start. Thanks for the tittles.


lol , didn't say you were --


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## Agaribay805 (Jan 7, 2016)

Whoops thought you did but seriously thanks for the tittles. I know reading and actual experience isn't the same thing but reading is always where I start with things..


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Look at the pedigrees of today's champions and work you way back, eventually you'll find see many parallels . . follow the path of the parallels


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the breed itself sets an example of how to learn more about pedigrees. By that I mean being " balanced" in getting information to allow you to learn to read them. Some comes from books, some from people, some from seeing and some from experiences, some from videos, etc. 
Be careful of being reliant too much on any one source, and be careful of people who are obsessive either pro or con about people, kennels, dogs, or performances. Remember, it's all about balance, and anything unbalanced in your information sources is not good!?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" pedigrees of today's champions and work you way back, eventually you'll find see many parallels "

Said many times by the likes of Anne Kent (Vandal)
Lee (wolfstraum) , Linda Shaw , self and others is that the new group of participants in the breed are relatively new (redundant) -- and have never experienced a different type of dog , seen a different type of dog .
This includes decoys who don't know what to do with a civil , active aggression , non-prey/play dog.
Is the current German show line the template to normal ? One would think so if one attended the shows because that is all that you would see .

Same goes for any other discipline.

I would start with the period where there seemed to be an ideal golden middle, the late 60's early 70's , before the influence of Canto , before the inbreeding on Lance (for the North American drift). The authors that I suggested wrote about dogs of that era. In fact now that I think of it the only new "breed" book is Linda Shaw's 
http://www.shawlein.com/ The Illustrated Standard for the German Shepherd.
Before that it would have been Barwig and Lanting and those go back to the 90's.

Lots of good information on the forum.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html 

this will inspire some questions http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/133877-straight-back-gsds.html

concepts http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...portant-prey-drive-schutzhund-protection.html

there are many many more


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