# Tracing a pet store pup?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes- Pimg was purchased from a pet store. There- I've said it. Am I ashamed of it? No; I didn't know any better. Would I do it again? Of course not!

Ok- with that out of the way, I am very curious on attempting to trace her lines. I don't even know if it is possible, but I know there is a LOT of experience on this board and perhaps you guys can help me. 

Pimg is _not_ AKC registered (registered with APRI- yeah... I know...). I have all her registration info through them, but I've googled pretty much every name and number on this piece of paper to no avail. Here's the info I have:

Sire: Graber's King of Montgomery
Sire's Reg. Number: C06-ZA-BI-35354T

Dam: K&K's Molly
Dam's Reg Number: K04-AZ-BI-30961T

Breeder: Delilah Knepp
MC: 473E206B32

Is there really anything I can do with this info? I'm just curious to see if there are _any_ working lines in her at all. I am just doing this out of curiosity. And in case anyone try to think I am looking into this to breed her- she's been spayed for many years now.  I just think it would be cool to know a bit more than I know now about her lineage: which is pretty much zilch.

If it helps, her parents were almost certainly breed in Indiana, most likely near Indianapolis since she was sold at a local pet store here (Uncle Bill's).

(*PLEASE READ: Don't flame me for buying a pet store pup! I didn't realize at the time what I was doing, and I fully plan on getting a dog from a reputable breeder in the future!*)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=Knepp_Delilah

Started by googling the name of the person who was producing those puppies! I don't think you will be finding any information on her family - just a guess.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wish i could help. I will simply say good luck! i would be curious as well


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The only thing I can think of is contacting APRI and seeing if they can send you a longer pedigree? Like a 5 or 6 generation one?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I guess this is an obvious question but have you contacted the registry? When I googled APRI dog registry their website came up

https://secure.aprpets.org/


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Emoore said:


> The only thing I can think of is contacting APRI and seeing if they can send you a longer pedigree? Like a 5 or 6 generation one?


I have looked into that, but I believe it is something like $70  It might actually be my only way to ever find out though. And I would think that there is a good chance that it is pretty much a dead end there too. I would assume that all those dogs are probably APRI dogs as well, and I probably wouldn't get much info on them. 

And JeanKBBMMMAAN- thanks for that link! Looks like the breeder is probably a bit shady if she doesn't even have the proper licensing herself. Good grief.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You guys are pretty smart! Will be interesting to see what they have for info!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Well, I guess this is an obvious question but have you contacted the registry? When I googled APRI dog registry their website came up
> 
> https://secure.aprpets.org/


It is my understanding that America's Pet Registry Inc. is a scam registry service. That's why I suspect that even if I do pay the fee to get the four generation pedigree, it probably won't tell me much. I forgot that they do have a forum though. I guess I will register on that forum and see if I can make trouble! 

[EDIT] I just registered and found this thread:
*OP-* I have received my dogs pegidree, how do I go about researching what is on it??
*Response-* Why would you research? The parents are there, and I don't know how far it goes back, but all is there. If they are champions, it will say so. As far as color or any bad genetics, just contact the breeder. If you want to know more about the parents then you need to contact the breeder. APRI could tell you that.


...Why _wouldn't_ someone want to research the dogs listed on their pedigree??


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The only thing I can provide is that the sire and dam's name sound like american show/pet lines, so that's what I'd guess your dog to be.

Being a pet store pup and without a pedigree from any legitimate registry, I'd just leave it at that and enjoy the dog you have. I'm sure he's a great dog no matter where he's from and what his pedigree says.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

I did the research once on a petland pup... (OH WAIT THEY COME FROM "REPUTABLE" BREEDERS) *cough* After doing the report it was obvious she came from a puppy mill. These people are not even breeders in my book, I would recommend a BYB before I suggest a puppy mill.
Anyways sorry to rant back to your dog. Honestly you will never find out about your dogs lines because they could just fill in any dog they wanted and it could be false also your dog came from a puppy mill not a breeder so it's even harder to find more than your dog is from puppy mill lines and made up names to fill in a pedigree.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> If it helps, her parents were almost certainly breed in Indiana, most likely near Indianapolis since she was sold at a local pet store here (Uncle Bill's).


No they were definitely not likely to have been from Indiana or even Indianapolis. Those names are american lines, and Uncle Bills is "local" yes, but they are a local CHAIN throughout central Indiana and has LONG been known to purchase from puppy mills, so she could've come from any miller in the US.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

She was born in Montgomery, IN- but almost certainly from a puppy mill.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I found this article describing Indiana's "Puppy Pipeline"
Indiana's Puppy Pipeline - 13 WTHR

It describes Daviess County, IN as:


> Daviess County is a quiet farming community two hours southwest of Indianapolis, and it is also the puppy breeding capital of Indiana. Towns such as Odon and Loogootee are home to dozens of Amish families who operate large-scale breeding kennels.


It also states of Levi Graber:


> The most prominent broker in Daviess County is Levi Graber, who provides puppies to Safari Pets (PDF) and Uncle Bill's Pet Centers in Indianapolis and Pass Pets in Bloomington. Graber does not like strangers asking questions about the puppy pipeline.


Hmmm... so let's see-


My pup was born to breeder Abner and Delilah Jean Knapp- very "old-time" perhaps even _Amish_ names...
My dog's sire is named _Graber's_ King of Montgomery
Montgomery, IN is located in Daviess Co, IN
...What a sad reality. The truth is all too obvious here, isn't it? I don't think I'll mess around paying APRI the $45 fee for her pedigree... :teary:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I also filed a report with petshoppuppies.org:
http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=32A0230


> *Inventory:*
> *Date: *3/13/2008
> *Species: *Puppy
> *Count: *97
> ...


Oh wow...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

are all those dogs where you posted your info, are they from the same breeder, (and I use the word loosely?) or just complaints in general??


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

They look like inspection numbers. Not the biggest kennel I've heard of (a few USDA puppy mills have over 1000 adults) but still a big kennel.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> are all those dogs where you posted your info, are they from the same breeder, (and I use the word loosely?) or just complaints in general??


My understanding is that they are all from the same breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ee gads


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Well, whatever her lineage...Pimg is a neat dog!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

ponyfarm said:


> Well, whatever her lineage...Pimg is a neat dog!


Have to agree - saw that little agility clip you posted, she looks athletic, and showed good responsiveness, nice movement, and confidence over the dog walk.


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## jkscandi50 (Nov 17, 2010)

AGGHHHH  I looked at those links - I'm crying here now - and I'm angry - this is why I like my critters more than people - grrrrrrr.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

ponyfarm said:


> Well, whatever her lineage...Pimg is a neat dog!





Castlemaid said:


> Have to agree - saw that little agility clip you posted, she looks athletic, and showed good responsiveness, nice movement, and confidence over the dog walk.


Thanks guys! Very nice of you to say that! Pimg really is a fantastic dog; I have no doubt that I lucked out. The truth is that I have very limited exposure to "quality" GSDs. The only reference I have is a titled (ring title) show line in agility class, and to be quite honest- I'd take my dog over that one any day. Pimg is very athletic, has a moderate to decent work ethic, is developing an awesome toy drive (we started working this for agility), has a very strong food drive, and has a gentle temperament. She is out of spec for size measuring in at 26" high and 28" long and weighing 74lbs. Overall she is in great health though admittedly I haven't gotten her hips or elbows xrayed. I really want to do this, but it seems silly to have to put her under just for a couple xrays... I've kind of been waiting for another reason such as a teeth cleaning. Then again, RMBs have cleaned up her teeth considerably. If Pimg has any fault (from my untrained eyes) it would be that she is pretty soft (she's shown little aggression and will _not_ confront my brother when he teasingly lunges at her as if to hit her [he's always giving me crap about how "soft" my GSD is; he'll have a real surprise when I finally get a working line one...]) and she also has pretty bad nerves.

The nerves thing has been hard for me to classify; it seems people use the term "nerves" to mean a lot of different things, from how well they can "take a beating" in Schutzhund protection, to how well they can handle excitement. Pimg isn't worked in an means of protection but has done some obedience classes. She's done very well in obedience. She does have an "off switch" when it comes time to settle down in the house, but she definitely does _not_ have an off switch when she is excited- whining, Whining, WHINING!!!! She's not really able to contain the excitement.

Still, those are pretty minor faults considering I am not working her in any protection work (I assume they'd immediately disqualify her for more aggressive work like that). For agility though- she is showing very high drive and is super fast! She also has great focus on me.

So yeah, overall- I do think she is a pretty fantastic dog considering her lineage. And hey, what do I know, maybe she's a fantastic dog regardless of her lineage.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

You definitely got a good dog. I don't think all petstore dogs are bad, but the odds are certainly stacked against them. It's so hard to walk into uncle bills and see GSD's and rotties for us. I also have a soft spot for labs after working with so many in the service dog intustry. If I ever see a malinois in there I think I will have a stroke...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Rerun said:


> You definitely got a good dog.


Very nice of you to say as well- especially since you've met Pimg in person and have a LOT more experience than me. :thumbup:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I thought she looked like a very nice dog, and what I saw of her didn't indicate any nerve problems, etc. This coming from someone working with a very nervy malinois (like the GSD you mentioned - mine will startle when the dog walk hits the ground).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah- I just don't have the experience to classify what "strong nerves" means. I can tell you that last night in class I put Pimg in a down-stay while I adjusted the teeter. It was set at competition height (there is a ridged bar that holds it here) so I was able to set the chain where I wanted it and then remove the bar- allowing the teeter frame to "drop" to position. Pimg was within two feet of the teeter and when it feel into position it made a very loud bang. My instructor saw it and told me that was a VERY risky thing to do around the dog- as most dogs would _freak_ at the loud noise. Pimg just sat there not startled at all... I dunno- noise has never been an issue for her...

But if you ran at her fists raised screaming, she would definitely not confront you. She usually goes ears back, tail low, and either stays in place or backs up a little.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

wildo said:


> But if you ran at her fists raised screaming, she would definitely not confront you. She usually goes ears back, tail low, and either stays in place or backs up a little.


I would not consider that weak nerved, in that situation a weak nerved dog would be running for the hills not just backing up a little. 

Dogs can be strong nerved but handler or people soft. My girls are very strong nerved and take everything new in stride but are handler soft and I have to be careful with verbal corrections.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

wildo, I think you got a great dog in Pimg, and she got a great owner in you


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## reggiewjr1 (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a cousin it seems, her name is Lily-Ann James Maximilian.

Her paternal gran sire is also Graber's KoM, and her paternal gran dam is K&K's Molly. 

Who are ALSO her maternal grand dam, E&E Rita's, exact parents.

Reduced that means her sire and dam were cousin's once removed?

Anywho, I know this threads old, but the breeder is listed as Nathan Wagler of Loogootee, IN.

Looking at the USDA list of registered breeders, there are several Wagler's listed in Loogootee, IN but none of them Nathan.

So puppy mill...probably...kind of depressing, but she was just too **** cute...and EXTREMELY vocal...


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Wildo, Pimg does sound like a really good dog! Maybe your best bet would be to post some good body shots of her for others to evaluate. Maybe some more experienced members can tell by looking at her what type of lines she may be from.

I have heard of APRI registration, and never really looked into it. I just checked their website and the APRI Breeder Registration Form is basically a registration form for puppy millers.

https://web.aprpets.org/online_breeder_registration.html

Some of the questions toward the bottom of the page are horrible..."What % do you sell to a broker, What % do you sell wholesale to a pet store, have you ever been convicted of animal cruelty" I would definately stick with your gut in NOT giving any money to this registry. Chances are, if she is from a mill the accuracy of her pedigree would be questionable.

Your story of Pimg has opened my eyes to the APRI Registry system, so thank you for that! And I really hope that you can get a little information on her. She was lucky to end up with someone like you!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

PupperLove said:


> Maybe your best bet would be to post some good body shots of her for others to evaluate. Maybe some more experienced members can tell by looking at her what type of lines she may be from.


Kind of like this? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/173542-please-critique-pimg.html :rofl:
Remember- this thread is nearly a year old. I've posted a lot of info and pics of my girl on this forum since. Read away- I share a lot! 



reggiewjr1 said:


> I have a cousin it seems, her name is Lily-Ann James Maximilian.
> 
> Her paternal gran sire is also Graber's KoM, and her paternal gran dam is K&K's Molly.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forums, reggiewjr1! How interesting that you have a pup so closely related to Pimg. Not that I have _any_ inclination to breed her (she's spayed anyway) but I will absolutely be interested in how your pup grows and develops. I'm very interested in the temperament and drive of your pup as well. I'd love for you to head over to the introductions section of this forum and post some info on your dog- including pics, of course!

As I mentioned above- I have a TON of pics and info of my girl, Pimg, on this forum. Feel free to browse around.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

BTW, even if you did get a pedigree from APR.... it probably wouldn't be correct. These puppy mill registries cropped up because AKC changed its rules to require DNA testing for dogs who have more than a certain number of puppies. So, in order to continue just randomly registering dogs without worrying who the actual parents are, the puppy millers are using these pseudo registries that don't ask for any proof and don't really care for actual parentage.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Zira is a petstore pup. I couldn't leave without her. She was sick and her eyes pierced mine. I knew I was doing something insane and in the end a HUGE money pit.... but, being that she was almost 4 months old, very large, and sickly... I knew what they were going to do to her. A year later, she has a ton of issues, but we love her no less for it.

I tried to look up her 'breeder' when we first got her. I found a website that only had pictures of puppies, no property pictures, no pictures of their adult dogs, nothing but "oh our puppies are just so cute.. look at them at a few weeks old"... the bottom of the webpage had links to their 6 other breeds. I stopped looking after that. I knew were she came from. A puppy mill. 

Your dog is still a neat dog and seems very intelligent... you got very lucky! At the end of the day, it doesn't matter where they came from or how we got them.... they love us all the same, and we love them regardless of their breeding! That's all that matters! =)


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