# Police K9 attacks handler's 6 yo daughter



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

http://http://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2016/01/k9_cop_sued_wife_police_dog_bites_daughter.html?hootPostID=6373426ac932929e1127d7cf91dba0f6

It says Spike is a bomb detection and tracking dog who cost the sheriff's department $25,000.00, and he has been returned to the kennel he was purchased from since the attack. I can't help but wonder which kennel.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I wonder why the dog wasn't secured in a locked kennel?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Spike van de Zeelberg ? working-dog

K9 joins the Erie County Sheriff’s Office | wivb.com


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I wonder if they are staying married or not? 

Weird.

I can understand, to a point, suing the PD but her husband too? 



In the end, the little girl was harmed and traumatized and the tax payers pick up the tab.

Liability like this is one of the reasons our local PD has no dogs.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

It's tragic for everybody concerned, particularly the little girl. It seems to me that a stable animal, even if it was being tormented in some way by this little girl (her maybe not knowing any better,) might have bit once, but it makes me wonder that there were multiple wounds.

It would be interesting to know the particulars of the case. Was the little girl interacting with the dog when this happened or did the attack appear to be unprovoked? If she was interacting with the dog, what was she doing? Obviously, the dog was not contained, but were the dog and child alone together when it happened or was the mother there, right in the same room? Were there any incidents before this that might have been a warning? I wish we knew more...


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I wonder if they are staying married or not?
> 
> Weird.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I figured legally it must somehow have made the most sense for the lawsuit to name the husband as well, but it does seem awkward.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> I wonder why the dog wasn't secured in a locked kennel?


I was wondering where/how the dog is usually kept when not on duty. I don't really have any knowledge on the subject, some people here probably know much more about the usual arrangements in this situation. I guess I assumed the K9 would just live with the handler's family, but again, I really have no idea.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

newlie said:


> It's tragic for everybody concerned, particularly the little girl. It seems to me that a stable animal, even if it was being tormented in some way by this little girl (her maybe not knowing any better,) might have bit once, but it makes me wonder that there were multiple wounds.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the particulars of the case. Was the little girl interacting with the dog when this happened or did the attack appear to be unprovoked? If she was interacting with the dog, what was she doing? Obviously, the dog was not contained, but were the dog and child alone together when it happened or was the mother there, right in the same room? Were there any incidents before this that might have been a warning? I wish we knew more...


You're right, there are so many unknown variables. Just kind of an all-around sad situation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wonder why the dog was not kenneled while the officer was at work.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

To many unanswered question that surely will come out in the lawsuit (unless it is settled out of court). As to the wife suing her husband: She isn't, she is suing the K9 handler police officer, which happens to be her husband. It's a legal formality. The Sheriffs office and the handler are both liable for the K9 in their charge. 

Years ago my BIL's grandmother fell down a flight of stairs while visiting his home. The grandmother had to sue her grandson to get a long term disability settlement from the renters insurance for her shattered shoulder. It wasn't personal. It's legal wrangling.

Won't say in the end this tragedy won't take it's toll on the marriage. But, remember, it's more sensational in the media to say the wife is suing her husband. 

My heart goes out to that little girl and both her parents. A very tragic event.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder why the dog went after the child when there was an adult it could have attacked, and how the wife was able to call her husband and didn't just call 9-1-1, so the nearest police/emts would come, kill the dog and treat the kid. 

I don't know how long the dude had the dog in the family, but that just isn't stable behavior. What the heck are they breeding for, bite, bite, bite and zero in the area of independent consideration of the threat, there has to be a word for what I am saying. 

A dog that you might work off-lead, to track suspects, to chase suspects, to track victims/lost people, the dog has to be able to discern what a threat is. The dog was not ordered to attack, so why did it? 

Yes, six year olds are right at that height when they look into the dog's eyes. Dogs are a attractive nuisance in that little kids are just drawn to them. But, something is seriously wrong with whatever, either the genes in the dog, or the program that produced the dog, or what k9 departments are looking to buy. 

Unless this was the first time the dog was present in the home of its handler, if this dog was chasing down a suspect, he might be just as quick to turn his attention on any kid in the area. A little kid. A six-year-old kid -- not good character at all. 

Dogs that maul children should be put down. This was no bite, this was a mauling. Send it back to the place that produced it? Why, so they can sell it again? So it can maul another child??? 

Dogs that kill children usually aren't working on their first felony. Usually they have an episode like this one, or even less severe. But if _this_ dog seriously attacks or kills another child, someone ought to go to prison.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Tragic! I'm wondering why the mother has no liability here. Wasn't she taking care of the little girl? She must have allowed the little girl and the dog to interact. Must be more to the story but all adults share liability here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There is always more to the story.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

There is always more to the story. In cases like this I'm more likely to blame parents than the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The answer to why the dog was at home is in the article. He was told to by his commanding officer.

The better answer is why the dog wasn't kenneled.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> So the dog was a police K9. The handler was the husband. The husband was at work when this happened. Has no one asked the question why was the dog home? Wouldn't the dog have been with his handler at work? There is always more to the story. In cases like this I'm more likely to blame parents than the dog.


It says when you click on the link that the officer's K-9 vehicle wasn't working and the officer was ordered to leave the dog at home. However, I just noticed that the article said the vehicle wasn't working in August, so it's still not working 5 months later?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If the link works it has a little more detail.

Sheriff’s dog bites girl; handler faces legal action from her mother – his wife - City & Region - The Buffalo News


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The attack happened in August. The article isn't about the attack. It's about the lawsuit.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> There is always more to the story. In cases like this I'm more likely to blame parents than the dog.





newlie said:


> It says when you click on the link that the officer's K-9 vehicle wasn't working and the officer was ordered to leave the dog at home. However, I just noticed that the article said the vehicle wasn't working in August, so it's still not working 5 months later?



After re-reading the article I changed my reply. I still have a hard time believing some of this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's a more in depth article. Explains why he wasn't in a kennel.

Dog-bite lawsuit against Sheriff’s Office a rare kind of case - City & Region - The Buffalo News


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> There is always more to the story.


 Why?

We barely wait for the ink to dry to blame a breeder when an owner is having trouble with their dog. We barely wait to read a post when someone says they want to breed a litter. We sometimes stick up for the bullies, when others here are ready to crucify them all. Why should we wait until we know more, and make excuses, when the person in question is a cop or the dog in question is a k9?

Facts:
Kid is six years old.
Kid was covered in blood.
Kid was attacked, not just nipped, not just bitten, but bitten on the head, arm, and torso -- mauling.

Sorry, but when a GSD mauls a child, a kid under the age of 12, it isn't the kid's fault. Frankly, I do not know how a woman, could protect a child from a police dog that can take down big, strong, athletic, criminal males. So we are lucky the poor kid isn't dead. 

Why isn't mauling a child, a child living with the dog's handler, not the dog's fault? 

Yes we do need to know why the dog wasn't properly kenneled. But are these dogs really supposed to be ticking time bombs? Are they supposed to be sticks of dynamite? Really. Is that what the WL shepherds are??? 

Why can't we make some judgements from our emotion and anger and grief and shock at such a story? 

Why do we need to have more information? 

Always?

If it has to do with law enforcement?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Here's a hypothetical:
Someone other than the handler lets dog out of crate. Dog growls. Mom freaks out and grabs child. This adds prey attraction so dog now bites. Mom freaks out more and hits dog encouraging the fight. 

This wouldn't have happened if the dog was left in the crate, or kennel where it belonged without it's handler present. The fact is we don't know what happened because we were not there.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> The attack happened in August. The article isn't about the attack. It's about the lawsuit.


Ys, thanks Jax, I had it in my head that the attack had just happened.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We know that a child was mauled, attacked, bitten more than 3 times. 

I have been in the middle of bitch fights. The moment bitches have connected with human, it stopped. They did not continue to bite the human -- me. The dog knew it was biting a child that lived in that house. I don't need to know much more than that. I don't really care how it happened to be out of its crate. 

If the k9 vehicle was out of commission since August, the wife might have been used to taking the dog out so it could relieve itself. Who knows. The crate may have been improperly latched -- I've done that. It happens. This dog attacked a little kid. A little kid it probably knew very well. If not, it attacked a little kid that was no threat whatsoever. 

If we take the police out of this, and anyone of us reported that we weren't home, but our spouse was there and our six-year-old kid, and our dog bit the kid several times in the head, torso, and arm, there would be no question as to the disposition of the dog. 

Any of us. 

Sorry. This isn't right, police dog or not.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

selzer said:


> Why?
> 
> We barely wait for the ink to dry to blame a breeder when an owner is having trouble with their dog. We barely wait to read a post when someone says they want to breed a litter. We sometimes stick up for the bullies, when others here are ready to crucify them all. Why should we wait until we know more, and make excuses, when the person in question is a cop or the dog in question is a k9?
> 
> ...


I just read that article that jax just posted


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

and that was the story.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Hypothetical number two:
Mom lets dog out of kennel. Dog says you're not my handler so grrr. Mom smacks dog and says knock it off. Child gets in the way. Or child smacks dog and says knock it off. and child gets bit. 

Once again we don't know because we weren't there.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

If you read the second article, she let the dog out of the kennel as she's done numerous times before. I'm hoping the lawsuit is to cover the medical expenses. 
I blame the dog, handler, and wife.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just read the story Michelle posted. The dog needs to be put down. They let the dog out numerous times. That day the dog attacked the little girl. The woman sounds like a hero. The dog sounds like he has a screw loose and is too dangerous for anything. Poor kid sounds like she has an awful lot of healing that needs to be done.

If _this_ dog attacks someone else, someone needs to go to prison.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mycobraracr said:


> Hypothetical number two:
> Mom lets dog out of kennel. Dog says you're not my handler so grrr. Mom smacks dog and says knock it off. Child gets in the way. Or child smacks dog and says knock it off. and child gets bit.
> 
> Once again we don't know because we weren't there.


 Nope, still not ok to try to kill a child. Sorry.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> The attack happened in August. The article isn't about the attack. It's about the lawsuit.


 the link covers the same info as the link you posted, including how the mom/daughter were attacked.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel said:


> the link covers the same info as the link you posted, including how the mom/daughter were attacked.


I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. What link covers the same info as the link I posted?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

We are not talking about Lassi the friendly neighborhood pet. We are talking about a working dog. Have any of you handled lived with or even seen in real life a real working dog? They aren't the same and shouldn't be expected to act as such. We can Monday morning quarterback all we want, the FACT yes FACT not hear say, not the report said, not she said he said, the FACT the undeniable truth is that we were not there and don't know what REALLY happened.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> If you read the second article, she let the dog out of the kennel as she's done numerous times before. I'm hoping the lawsuit is to cover the medical expenses.
> I blame the dog, handler, and wife.


 I am curious as to why you blame the wife. The man's shift is probably 8 hours, maybe 10, maybe 12. They have let this dog out numerous times, why should the wife think that the dog might attack them if they allowed it outside to potty/run around in the back as usual. 

We see too many photos of police dogs loving on the children of their owner/handlers. These are supposed to be highly trained, stable dogs. No one would suspect a dog that she knows to attack her kid, and it is not like she went out partying and told the kid not to forget to let Spike out. She was right there and did manage to get the dog off of the kid. I don't know that we have enough information to blame the wife.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mycobraracr said:


> We are not talking about Lassi the friendly neighborhood pet. We are talking about a working dog. Have any of you handled lived with or even seen in real life a real working dog? They aren't the same and shouldn't be expected to act as such. We can Monday morning quarterback all we want, the FACT yes FACT not hear say, not the report said, not she said he said, the FACT the undeniable truth is that we were not there and don't know what REALLY happened.


 Of course we have seen them. We have petted them. We have seen demonstrations with them. We have been around them. We have known their families, and have known the kids living with them. 

The FACTS are, if it has anything to do with a k9 or police, we will NEVER have enough information to judge because we weren't there. We can judge all the rest, without ever having been there. We can judge breeders we never met, and dogs we have never seen, but we cannot judge a dog that bites a little kid in the arms, head and torso, because it is a k9. It's pretty simple I guess. We weren't there, the dog gets a pass.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A working dog is not your average pet but it does not make him kujo. There are some police dogs that do live in the families home. I would think a well bred well trained working dog would at least stable enough to where the handlers spouse can let the dog out of a kennel without the dog mauling them or the child.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Agree with Sue in that if this were not a police K9 it would be PTS, no question. If it were my dog I would have it PTS based on the decription of the injuries to the little girl.

I find it very odd that the law suit (per Michelle's link) claims they didn't know the dog had a "propensity to bite". It's a police K9 trained to bite (see video Alexis posted earlier).


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> I am curious as to why you blame the wife. The man's shift is probably 8 hours, maybe 10, maybe 12. They have let this dog out numerous times, why should the wife think that the dog might attack them if they allowed it outside to potty/run around in the back as usual.
> 
> We see too many photos of police dogs loving on the children of their owner/handlers. These are supposed to be highly trained, stable dogs. No one would suspect a dog that she knows to attack her kid, and it is not like she went out partying and told the kid not to forget to let Spike out. She was right there and did manage to get the dog off of the kid. I don't know that we have enough information to blame the wife.


But no one should trust a dog 100%. This isn't some low drive, laid back family dog. That being said, its just my opinion. I have a feeling it wasn't just a case of the dog going off. I think there might be more to the story. Was the daughter taunting? Was the mom scolding the child? 
I might be wrong, but I'm under the impression that working dogs need to have an alpha personality. Only behind the handler. 
But just my opinion. And in no way am I excusing what happened. This is tragic and the dog should be evaluated. But because we don't know the entire story I don't think we can say the dog needs to be put down.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

While not necessarily commenting directly on this story, because there is just too big of an information gap to direct blame.

But I do not think being a working dog is an excuse for a dog to go after a child. That's kind of the whole point of stability in breeding, the ability to read situations, is that not our pride in our GSD? Our local K9s do demonstrations with our summer camp kids every year and do fantastic with them. They live with their kids, they *trust* them with their kids. I've seen random mixed breeds come into my shelter with serious aggression towards people, yet were still able to recognize the harmlessness of a child.(No actual children put in harms way of course.)

I am not saying blame the dog, but I don't think that should be an excuse for instability. Especially considering the dog went that far, there's a big difference between growling/warning, and actually biting. The dog is what it is. Though I do not believe the dog should be allowed loose without its handler for any prolonged period of time until the dog is very well established in the home.

As good Ol' Max said: "The dog who is sharp as he ought to be is harmless and good-tempered, even to strangers, although he is always reserved. He warns and threatens first, he does not fight at once, and above all, never bites immediately and senselessly when he can accomplish his purpose without a fight." 
Max v Stephanitz thoughts on schutzhund work

(My apologies if I misread the direction of the discussion.)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good quote.

I was thinking about the same thing, not breed standard, "well disposed to harmless strangers and mad about children" quote from Max Von Stephanitz


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Good quote.
> 
> I was thinking about the same thing, not breed standard, "well disposed to harmless strangers and mad about children" quote from Max Von Stephanitz


Yes, that's one thing I remember consistently when reading his quotes. He always insisted they love children.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, I was looking for a "specific" case where a K9 officer, left his K9 in the back yard and his son went into the yard with the dog and got mauled. Leg and foot, the officer was upstairs and did not hear the attack. A next door neighbor did and saved his son from the dog.

In "that" particular situation the office violated policy which stated: *"if the K9 is not under direct supervision, he is to be properly secured"* so that crap like that does not happen!

Apparently "some" K9 departs aren't employing the "best and the brightest??" keeping a dog with aggressive tendencies from biting the crap out of people,e is not that hard if you exercise a little bit of "common sense." 

At any rate, the case I was describing ... is in here somewhere.:
https://www.google.com/search?q=k9+....22700j0j1&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

Certainly not how I "thought" properly trained K9's should behave?? If all a lot of Police departments want are aggressive dogs that bite the crap out of non-threats?? Then they should just go to the local animal shelter, there are lots of them there. Just saying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think if you truly love the breed, and you truly love the lines, and you truly support and care about the breed working in specific areas, then it doesn't do anyone any good to defend a situation like this. 

We need to get some numbers. How many GSDs are serving as k9s? How many of them live with the handlers? How many of them live with kids? How many of them attack the family of the handlers? 

I don't think this is some hushed up thing that families of police officers just put up with. Ok, a nick here or there, even we here will often clean a dog bite and tell no one, because we know it was our own fault it happened or a fight between dogs or whatever. If you have dogs for any length of time, there will be accidents.

This was no accident. 

And, I just do not see this as a typical thing that k9 handlers have happen. Else, there would be policies that dogs would not be going home with any handler, ever. They would live in kennels at the station. 

When shepherd owners discus blatant irresponsibility with their dogs, it ticks me off. Because I don't want the breed to get that kind of reputation. When k9s act in ways that are not normal, and detrimental to their image which is definitely the case here, people who care about these programs, in defending individual dogs like this one, are throwing the whole program under the bus. 

Many k9 programs are funded by donations and the support of the community for these dogs is very important.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> A working dog is not your average pet but it does not make him kujo. There are some police dogs that do live in the families home. I would think a well bred well trained working dog would at least stable enough to where the handlers spouse can let the dog out of a kennel without the dog mauling them or the child.


Yes, you would think so.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

One thing I've learned over the years speaking with officers and people who help train police K9s, how each dept manages dogs varies. 

One PD near me has built their own kennels. Another, in a smaller town, the dogs go home with the officers.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> One thing I've learned over the years speaking with officers and people who help train police K9s, how each dept manages dogs varies.
> 
> One PD near me has built their own kennels. Another, in a smaller town, the dogs go home with the officers.


 Apparently, yes "policy varies by jurisdiction, that does seem to be the case?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Although I hate it, I am of the opinion, too, that maybe the dog ought to be put to sleep. Again, it's the multiple bites that bother me. Even if the child had been teasing or bothering the dog in some way, and the dog could not move away,it seems to me that most dogs would have nipped or bitten once, not multiple times. It seems more in light of an attack than a defensive move.

Of the numerous thread on this forum that I have read, anytime someone posts that there were no warning signs before an attack, people always respond that there must have been and the OP just didn't recognize them. I think that is probably the case here. I find it hard to believe that the dog turned into Cujo one morning with no warning previously, unless he had manifested aggression in the home before and been severely disciplined for it.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. What link covers the same info as the link I posted?


Lol, my mistake, your post I quoted must have been directed at Newlie's comment, some how I missed that earlier.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

One thing I think on the subject of blaming the dog:

It is possible to not have any doubt about what will have to happen to the dog, while not ascribing malicious intent to the dog. Maybe he's just not right. I can't exactly blame him if that's the case. He still sounds like he's dangerous, and I wouldn't argue against putting him down.


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## daisyprincess (Nov 25, 2015)

This is bad.


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## christoph (Apr 12, 2016)

We know that a child was mauled, attacked, bitten more than 3 times. 

I have been in the middle of bitch fights. The moment bitches have connected with human, it stopped. They did not continue to bite the human -- me. The dog knew it was biting a child that lived in that house. I don't need to know much more than that. I don't really care how it happened to be out of its crate. 

If the k9 vehicle was out of commission since August, the wife might have been used to taking the dog out so it could relieve itself. Who knows. The crate may have been improperly latched -- I've done that. It happens. This dog attacked a little kid. A little kid it probably knew very well. If not, it attacked a little kid that was no threat whatsoever. 

If we take the police out of this, and anyone of us reported that we weren't home, but our spouse was there and our six-year-old kid, and our dog bit the kid several times in the head, torso, and arm, there would be no question as to the disposition of the dog.


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