# 6 Year Old Killed By Service Dog



## ILGHAUS

6 Year Old Killed By Service Dog That Attacked
by Kim Gebbia
_CLARKSVILLE, Tenn-_ Police said a medical service dog that mauled a six year old to death had no history of violence, but professional trainers said that doesn't mean they can't or won't attack.

6 Year Old Killed By Service Dog That Attacked - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports


Soldier's Therapy Dog Euthanized After Killing Six-Year-Old Boy
Susy Raybon
A specially trained German Shepherd that attacked and mauled to death a six-year-old boy in Oak Grove, Kentucky on Sunday has been euthanized.

Soldier?s therapy dog euthanized after killing six-year-old boy - National Military Community | Examiner.com


Many of us were afraid of actions like this happening. Training facilities and new trainers are popping up all over the place for vets & PSDs. Some are good and are choosing and training correctly. Others, well ... 

Some are pushing to bring in a pet and teach it a few tasks and wow a SD in 6-8 weeks. Many go on about how every vet needs a SD to help them. People are pulling from shelters not knowing how to properly evaluate and are more in tune to "Save Two Lives" then to stop and follow a thought out stratergy. Dogs are being pushed through that are not suitable for the work. 

Under the current push there is going to be others injured - both people and SDs out working in the community.

And ... SDs are not Lassie's or furry angels. They must be viewed as a dog first and the same safety measures taken as with other dogs.


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## NancyJ

Oh, dear God

I hope this is a catalyst for making these dogs have to go through some formal certification and temperament testing process as well as training for the owners and a real assessment about the NEED for the dog in the first place.

I shudder thinking about my grandkids (my own grandkids but also others) being placed at risk because of some such dog brought into Walmart or whatever and something happens.

So what, specifically, should we do! I am willing to write letters, make calls, even visit representatives but am so tied up with other things that, like many, I can't make it a primary cause (in other words, a lot of us can be followers in getting something done)


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## Andaka

But we don't want certifications to be required. It can be dificult for those of us who train our own dogs to get to places where the certifications are given.

However, if you are going to train dogs for a fee, then perhaps some sort of licensing might be in order.


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## Xeph

> However, if you are going to train dogs for a fee, then perhaps some sort of licensing might be in order.


THIS I agree with, and find it very sensible. I do not agree with a national licensing type deal for the dogs


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## Ingrid

Unfortunately many service dogs are poorly trained, not proofed in multiple situations and/or have bogus certifications that their owners have purchased on-line. This (medical service dog training) is a completely unregulated industry, open to all kinds of scams and bogus trainers.


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## Mrs.K

Is it a Therapy Dog or a Service Dog? 

I hate when the two terms are thrown together like it's one and the same.

Did you hear some of those statements the trainer made?


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## mysweetkaos

Mrs.K said:


> Is it a Therapy Dog or a Service Dog?
> 
> I hate when the two terms are thrown together like it's one and the same.
> 
> Did you hear some of those statements the trainer made?


 
This one bothered me...
Patterson says it's easy for children to trigger dogs like German Shepherds, even if they are well trained.

What a sad situation. I agree service dogs and therapy dogs are different, but any of them trained correctly and of sound mind should not be easily triggered by kids.


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## Mrs.K

mysweetkaos said:


> This one bothered me...
> Patterson says it's easy for children to trigger dogs like German Shepherds, even if they are well trained.
> 
> What a sad situation. I agree service dogs and therapy dogs are different, but any of them trained correctly and of sound mind should not be easily triggered by kids.


yeah and the "making the screaming" stop part too. :help:


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## Dejavu

What a horrible situation! 

Little kid left alone and unattended with a large strange dog? Why??

I don't know about the training part, my dogs are not as well trained as most of the dogs here and they have been around many kids of all ages and sizes (my nephews and nieces and even their friends),those kids scream a LOT, and my dogs either just ignore them or follow and play with them.
So this must have to do more with socialization or temperament.


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## Ingrid

_"Is it a Therapy Dog or a Service Dog? 

I hate when the two terms are thrown together like it's one and the same."

_The definition of a service/therapy dog varies so greatly from state to state that it becomes hard to diferentiate between the two groups and unfortunately they end up getting thrown together by the general public and in the press.


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## Mrs.K

I don't know. If I pay 30 000 for a dog, the dog better be bomb proof in every kind of situation.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

It is a sad situation for the family of the child and for the soldier.


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## Chicagocanine

Were the dog and child left alone in the backyard together? While a service dog should definitely be "bombproof" I still don't think a young child and dog should be left alone like that. A dog is a dog and even a well-trained and proofed dog is still a dog. I heard a case recently where a man and his children threw rocks at and kicked a service dog then yanked the dog's ears...while a service dog should never bite would you blame the dog if they defended themself in that situation?




Ingrid said:


> Unfortunately many service dogs are poorly trained, not proofed in multiple situations and/or have bogus certifications that their owners have purchased on-line.


Actually service dogs do not require any certifications so any "certification" is either bogus or at the very least has no legal backing.




Ingrid said:


> The definition of a service/therapy dog varies so greatly from state to state that it becomes hard to diferentiate between the two groups and unfortunately they end up getting thrown together by the general public and in the press.


Please explain? Most states that have some sort of law on service dogs are very clean that they are referring to a dog trained to assist a handler who has a disability.
I have never seen any state with specific laws regarding therapy dogs, which are pet dogs who visit hospitals, nursing homes, etc...


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## KZoppa

How very sad for all involved. That "trainer" should be knocked upside her head. Nothing but ignorance spouted from her. Its a bad situation all around, yes, but i honestly fault the parents in this simply for the fact the child was left alone in the yard with a large dog unsupervised. And if the dog is supposed to be a service animal, why wasnt he inside working where he should have been? Everyone is at fault here but I do put a large portion of the blame on the parents for failing to prevent the situation. Just because its a service animal, it doesnt always mean its bomb proof. 

very sad and frustrating.


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## chelle

I am absolutely sickened by this.

I'm scratching my head with this statement:

_"It's not that he wanted to brutally kill this child it's that he was confused on what was going on that screams were coming out and he wanted to fix it,"_ 

Does this sound..... right?  (Sure doesn't to me.)

To *KILL* a 6 year old, it *HAD* to have been pretty brutal. A 6 y/o is NOT that small. 

I'll go out on a limb and say I'll bet this turns out to be an owner-trained service dog.


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## Mrs.K

And where were the parents when this thing first started? These houses walls are so thin that you can hear anything and everything outside. The first yell should have alerted them.


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## PaddyD

Euthanize means to put down an animal that is suffering.
This dog was executed, it wasn't suffering from anything but ignorance.
I am sick and tired of hearing and reading about animals that were 'euthanized' when they were really executed.


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## selzer

A dog that kills a child should be euthanized -- I am talking about small children, not a 14 - 17 year old that is attacking the owner of the dog. But this dog wasn't wired right to kill a child like that. Maybe if the kid came over his fence into his yard, but even then, sorry. I think the dog should have been euthanized. Most GSDs will bite once or twice, but they usually do not maul a child to death. 

It does not take much to kill an infant, and that is simply tragic, I think that is case by case. I think there was a case where the baby was crying and the female GSD picked up the baby to bring it to the owners. The baby died. Knowing how bitches are about puppies, they hear a puppy cry and are right there cleaning, stimulating urination, defication, feeding, and and can become frantic if the pup is in trouble, so I think that goes case to case. 

But this was a child, and the dog had to bite the kid several times to kill it. It was a mauling. And even working line dogs are generally encouraged through training to continue to bite until they tell the dog to out. An ordinary GSD would not have acted that way unless it was either trained or not right. 

This is terrible for service dogs and for GSDs. It is VERY uncommon. I think that people tend to get the wrong idea about service dogs. A seeing-eye dog is highly trained, and able to help a blind person function without human help. But not all service dogs are highly trained. Some are trained for a specific function, like checking low blood sugar, or siezures, and while they might have been taught some obedience to help them function in public and not drag the owner around, I would hardly call them highly trained.

But the general public seems to give them that kind of credit, all of them. 

As for these PTSD dogs. I am curious what specific tasks a dog would have to do for its owner. It seems like a GSD, an ordinary GSD would be perfect without any specific training.

I have to wonder if part of this person's disease was being afraid in public, and suspicious of people, and if he was training the dog to attack.

But, if the dog had no history of attacking, and this man was not specifically training the dog to attack, then I do not see how they could charge him with harboring a viscious/dangerous dog. Otherwise we are all harboring dangerous dogs. 

It was stupid putting the kid and dog in the back yard together, where they could not observe or even hear them. 

Sad, stupid, poor kid, poor dog, poor people. Usually people do not have to pay the ultimate for a stupid move, so I feel for them as well. 

Bad for everyone. Bad for us. Bad for service dogs. Because this is so uncommon, it is news, and goes far and wide. Sad.


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## The Packman

This is a sad story but to blame the trainer, as some posters have done is wrong. I have posted articles before where police K-9s (the cream of the crop) have attached civilians at there will and have even turned on there handlers. No matter how much and how well they are trained, you are still dealing with a animal...it is that simple. 

Children should never be left alone with dogs or cats for that matter.

_Police say the Friday attack of the department’s police dog, Storm, on an 8-year-old boy was an unfortunate accident, but Storm has done much more good than bad during his time with the department._ Youngstown News, Police defend K-9 in attack on 8-year-old


_A McKeesport police dog was likely being protective Wednesday morning when it bit a 6-year-old girl, her mother *and the officer who handles the dog, police said. *_Police dog bites girl, 6, mother, handler​ 
http://www.policek9.com/Fleck/Accidental.pdf


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## Mrs.K

> But this was a child, and the dog had to bite the kid several times to kill it. It was a mauling. * And even working line dogs are generally encouraged through training to continue to bite until they tell the dog to out. An ordinary GSD would not have acted that way unless it was either trained or not right.*


I don't know of any SchH dog that has ever killed a child.


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## AbbyK9

> Soldier's Therapy Dog Euthanized After Killing Six-Year-Old Boy
> 
> A specially trained German Shepherd that attacked and mauled to death a six-year-old boy in Oak Grove, Kentucky on Sunday has been euthanized.
> 
> Soldier?s therapy dog euthanized after killing six-year-old boy - National Military Community | Examiner.com


I posted a comment to this page yesterday, actually, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to copy my response here as well, with some of the pertinent things bolded.



> I have a huge issue with this article and it is about the terminology used, as well as the training of PTSD dogs.
> 
> First, about the terminology. The article is titled "soldier's therapy dog euthanized" but then goes on to talk about how much training costs for PTSD dogs and which tasks they are trained to do. You should probably be aware of the fact that you are talking about two very, very different things here.
> 
> A Therapy Dog is a dog that is selected based on outstanding temperament and willingness to interact with others, certified, and then goes to visit hospitals and nursing homes. Therapy Dogs are the pets of their own handlers and are not trained to do any tasks (although they may be trained to do tricks). Their work is almost always volunteer in nature.
> 
> By comparison, a dog that is trained to do specific tasks to help a person with a disability is a Service Dog. The ADA defines Service Dogs as "dogs trained to do specific tasks that mitigate the disability of their handler." This disability needs to be legal, not just medical - meaning that the disability is such that the dog is required for the person to do major life tasks. Some of the tasks described above *are* real tasks - such as waking up a person or fetching medication after a seizure. Some of the tasks described above are *NOT* tasks - such as providing emotional support and comfort.
> 
> What worries me in the extreme is that there are *no requirements for Service Dog selection and training under the laws*. The only requirements that must be met is that the handler is legally disabled and the dog is trained several tasks that specifically helps the handler. You can legally train your own dog. Where this becomes worrisome is when you have *dogs selected that obviously do NOT have the necessary temperament to do this type of work - dogs that may be aggressive toward other dogs or people, for example. Obviously, someone did not do a good job picking this dog if it was aggressive toward a young child!*
> 
> What's more worrying are *all these organizations springing up that claim to train "Service Dogs" for soldiers or offer to train the soldier's own dog for this task. Many of these dogs selected do not have the temperament nor the public access training to do Service Dog work, and many of them can not be legally considered Service Dogs *because they either do not have task training (they just provide "comfort" or "emotional support") or the handler is not considered to be legally disabled.
> 
> Just a few thoughts.


Anyway.



> I hope this is a catalyst for making these dogs have to go through some formal certification and temperament testing process as well as training for the owners and a real assessment about the NEED for the dog in the first place.


THIS. 100% seconded. 

I think there are A LOT of "Service Dogs" out there paired with handlers who do not need them, especially soldiers with TBI/PTSD because there is such a huge push to get them paired. I know I've mentioned this before, but there's been a flier up at our local Purple Heart Society office offering to pair a soldier with a pet or train their own pet to become a Service Dog. It says all they need is a "documented history" of PTSD. It doesn't say that their symptoms need to be such that they would require the dog's assistance to do major life tasks (which is what Service Dogs are for).

I honestly and seriously question whether a diagnosis of PTSD or mild TBI should automatically qualify as something you can get a Service Dog for. They're even rating a concussion as mild TBI. Heck, according to the way they're diagnosing both TBI and PTSD these days, my husband would currently qualify for a Service Dog because, yes, he's been diagnosed with both, it's in his records. But there is NO reason in the world why my husband should need a Service Dog - he doesn't even need medication. 

Yet there are groups that are pushing Service Dogs for anyone with a diagnosis of TBI/PTSD and I think they are misleading Soldiers by telling them their pet can be a Service Dog and they can take them places once they do some training.

I don't know if that is the case here, but looking at the articles, they suggest that the person partnered with the dog is still an active duty soldier, still living in base housing. If he goes to PT in the morning and work thereafter without needing the assistance of the dog, should he even qualify for a Service Dog? Who made the determination for the need for a Service Dog for this person? Where did the dog come from? Who trained it?

I've seen MANY doctors on base here recommend "Service Dogs" to soldiers when they really MEANT pets / companions that would be beneficial for the soldier to have at home when he gets home from work - to relax, go out and exercise, comfort, etc. Many of these doctors have no idea that there's a difference, either.



> As for these PTSD dogs. I am curious what specific tasks a dog would have to do for its owner. It seems like a GSD, an ordinary GSD would be perfect without any specific training.
> 
> I have to wonder if part of this person's disease was being afraid in public, and suspicious of people, and if he was training the dog to attack.


Actual PTSD dogs are a type of psychiatric service dogs. They can be trained many different tasks, depending on the handler's needs. For example, the dog can be trained to wake up a person experiencing nightmares. Go turn the light on. Fetch water and medication. Guide a person if they become disoriented in public. Remind them to take meds. "Ground" them if it is needed. Provide a "barrier" between the person and other people. Just to name a few. This isn't something a GSD without training does - and providing comfort and support don't count as tasks.

Also, the ADA is very specific that attack training is a no-no for Service Dogs. They can provide "passive" protection - like being a barrier by standing between the handler and other people - but active protection (barking, growling, lunging, etc.) is a no-no and definitely not a Service Dog task.



> _"It's not that he wanted to brutally kill this child it's that he was confused on what was going on that screams were coming out and he wanted to fix it,"_


The "trainer" they quoted is a complete idiot. I hope nobody pays them money for training after their ridiculous comments run in the newspaper. They obviously don't know the first thing about dogs, dog behavior, and dog training.

I don't blame the trainer - I don't even know if the trainer they interviewed is the person who trained this dog - but I blame this person for making stupid, stupid statements to the press that reflect badly on all Service Dogs.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> I don't know of any SchH dog that has ever killed a child.


Neither do I. The point is that this dog did not act normally. One needs to train the dog to continue to bite. GSDs are generally not maulers. I was NOT taking a hit on working lines or Schutzhund dogs.


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## selzer

Yes, the trainer upset me too. She made it sound like every GSD is a ticking time-bomb.


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## chelle

selzer said:


> Neither do I. The point is that this dog did not act normally. *One needs to train the dog to continue to bite.* GSDs are generally not maulers. I was NOT taking a hit on working lines or Schutzhund dogs.


That's what I was thinking. Why did this dog continue to go on and on until death? Or did the dog hit a sensitive part early in the attack? (jugular?) 

Too many more details that need to be known. Seems like they're holding back a fair amount of information.


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## GregK

chelle said:


> Too many more details that need to be known. Seems like they're holding back a fair amount of information.


I agree. The story's pretty vague.


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## AbbyK9

> *One needs to train the dog to continue to bite.*


Do we know that the dog "continued to bite" or are we speculating?

Based on the articles I've read, here's the only information I was able to discern. The child and dog were left alone in the back yard. The family heard the child scream. The family went outside and found that the child had been mauled. The child was airlifted to a nearby medical center where he passed away.

Nowhere have I seen any mention of where the dog bit the child - but I assume it was probably on the face or neck, since that is where (statistically) most dog bites wind up on young children. This 6-year-old was probably barely taller than the dog, so it stands to reason that the face / head / neck would be the most likely area to be bitten.

Even ONE bite to the face can do some very serious damage. There are lots of small, fragile bones in the human head and a very intricate system of many, many blood vessels in the face and head as well. Even a small facial laceration bleeds like the devil. (We once took a lady with a 1/2" gash over her eyebrow ... she soaked through several 5x9 pads, a towel, and our pillow by the time we reached the hospital ... five minutes away!) It would be so very easy for a young child to bleed to death before reaching the hospital from a few punctures to the face. Let alone damage to any of the major blood vessels in the neck.

I think a lot of articles are now leaving out that the child was airlifted and then died at the hospital so people think the dog killed the child in the yard, which wasn't the case. The dog attacked the child, yes. Then add time for EMS to get there. Then add time for life flight to get there. I don't know what Fort Campbell is like, but our EMS response time in town is about 5 minutes, outside town 10 to 15 minutes, depending on where it is. Then you'd have to request life flight, and it takes about 30 minutes for life flight to get here, as they fly from Syracuse. At least that's the way it is up here.


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## Zisso

Very sad for all involved.

Who in their right mind puts their child out in a dogs yard and doesn't at the very least monitor the situation? 

I am speechless.


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## selzer

I think I read that there was a puncture on the hand, and there were bites on the face and a blood trail. I guess when I hear the world maul, I think of multiple bites, as well as shaking. But maybe I need to look that up.


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## gagsd

Trainer's webpage, verified through comments on FB page..... Welcome to the Frontpage


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## AbbyK9

> Who in their right mind puts their child out in a dogs yard and doesn't at the very least monitor the situation?


Many, many people do not think about it twice. The parents in this story didn't. They said they didn't feel they needed to worry because the yard was fenced and the dog was a Service Dog. Lots of other parents tell the press they didn't worry because the dog was tethered, or the child knew the dog, or any other one of five hundred reasons people have for not paying attention when their kids and animals interact.



> I guess when I hear the world maul, I think of multiple bites, as well as shaking. But maybe I need to look that up.


I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. Here's what the dictionary says -



> verb (used with object) 3.to handle or use roughly: The book was badly mauled by its borrowers.
> 4.to injure by a rough beating, shoving, or the like; bruise: to be mauled by an angry crowd.
> 5.to split with a maul and wedge, as a wooden rail.


I think when it comes to press coverage, "maul" is always the word that is used for a serious dog bite, regardless of whether it involved multiple re-bites, or hanging on, or shaking. Especially when it comes to children. "Maul" seems to better describe a serious dog bite or dog attack - as opposed to, say, "child bitten by dog".

I think people associate bite with some punctures, but no serious injury. And mauling with very serious injuries. At least that's how the press is using the terms.




> I think I read that there was a puncture on the hand, and there were bites on the face and a blood trail.


I did read about the blood trail - but remember, police stated there was a blood trail. This doesn't mean the child was dragged by the dog. Head wounds bleed a lot. They child could have crawled toward the house. Or parents could have pulled the child away from where the dog was. Or EMTs could have moved the child.

I'm not disagreeing that this was an awful attack. I'm just saying that the information we have is very easy to put together into a lot of different scenarios. The wording the press uses can lead a person to look at something in a very specific way.


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## AbbyK9

> Trainer's webpage, verified through comments on FB page..... Welcome to the Frontpage


It does not appear that this trainer offers any Service Dog training. Their basic class covers basic manners and commands, and their advanced class covers some of the additional steps needed to earn a CGC.

This makes me wonder even more if the dog was a Emotional Support / Companion Dog, and not a Service Dog?


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## KZoppa

the trainers website doesnt say how long she's been actively training. Sorry but starting just for fun doesnt cut it for me. Neither does the $25 a private session with "most dogs learn the basic commands in 5-6 sessions". You can take a group class for much less in most cases as well as get the socialization aspect done too. 

I agree the information we have is not nearly enough to reach the full story. Once again, the media leaves out vital points and makes it sound like a horror scene from a movie or thriller novel. Again i repeat, everyone involved is at fault. That child was failed as was the dog.


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## Chicagocanine

I am also wondering if this was an Emotional Support Dog or a "companion" type dog rather than an actual service dog, service dog as in a dog task trained to mitigate the handler's disabilities.

I am not sure where I stand regarding requiring certification, on one hand it might keep some poorly trained dogs out of the public, on the other hand people could fake certification like they already do--- and what about people who need a service dog but are unable to obtain the required certification? Who decides the standard? How do you enforce it? How do you make sure there are enough trainers or evaluators so every person who needs a service dog is able to get the certification? Who pays for all of this? Etc... There is also the issue of making it more difficult for people to be able to go about their daily lives- would they have to present a special certification everywhere they go?




KZoppa said:


> Neither does the $25 a private session with "most dogs learn the basic commands in 5-6 sessions". You can take a group class for much less in most cases as well as get the socialization aspect done too.


Most trainers in my area charge at least twice that, usually more, for a private training session.

However since there are no requirements to train a service dog, really any trainer could offer training for a service dog, or the individual can train the dog themselves.


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## KZoppa

Chicagocanine said:


> I am also wondering if this was an Emotional Support Dog or a "companion" type dog rather than an actual service dog, service dog as in a dog task trained to mitigate the handler's disabilities.
> 
> I am not sure where I stand regarding requiring certification, on one hand it might keep some poorly trained dogs out of the public, on the other hand people could fake certification like they already do--- and what about people who need a service dog but are unable to obtain the required certification? Who decides the standard? How do you enforce it? How do you make sure there are enough trainers or evaluators so every person who needs a service dog is able to get the certification? Who pays for all of this? Etc... There is also the issue of making it more difficult for people to be able to go about their daily lives- would they have to present a special certification everywhere they go?
> 
> 
> 
> Most trainers in my area charge at least twice that, usually more, for a private training session.
> 
> However since there are no requirements to train a service dog, really any trainer could offer training for a service dog, or the individual can train the dog themselves.




yup, all the private lessons around here and back in NC too, are all at minimum $70 an hour per session. I dont know. I guess maybe the $25 a private lesson, no matter how many they do a day/week is a red flag for me?


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## AbbyK9

> I guess maybe the $25 a private lesson, no matter how many they do a day/week is a red flag for me?


Why, though? 

Looking at their website, it appears that they are a retail store as well as a training facility and that they offer both group and private classes. I think it's probably a small business that has the space for training classes in the building, and they offer them for store hours. I'm assuming the clients come to them vs. the trainer going to the clients.

I do basic obedience classes and I charge $20/hour, but I go to them. I am training basic pet obedience, though, and would not claim to be a Service Dog trainer or help someone train a Service Dog. I *am* working with one guy whose dog will be a Therapy Dog (he is a psychologist) and we've sat down and worked out a training plan specifically for that and, besides basic obedience, we are working on some Therapy Dog tasks - like teaching the dog to come up and rest her head on someone's lap, for example. One of my other puppy people is doing scent work with his dog (find and retrieve). But I don't teach outside of what I KNOW and I would never assume I could train a Service Dog.


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## robk

German Shepherds have big mouths and big teeth. I would say that one bite on a small child in the neck or face could kill it. I think this sad story just need to serve as a reminder to be mindful of our own dogs at all times.


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## Freddy

Ingrid said:


> Unfortunately many service dogs are poorly trained, not proofed in multiple situations and/or have bogus certifications that their owners have purchased on-line. This (medical service dog training) is a completely unregulated industry, open to all kinds of scams and bogus trainers.


I bought my male to train for Schutzhund. That was my sole criteria. I did intend for him to be an inside dog, and a member of our family. He's great in social situations in and out of the house with people. We learned when he was about 16 months that he could sense my son's seizures. Before there were any visible signs he would get agitated and start whining/licking his face. Based on that criteria, he could be a service dog. Will he ever be? Not in a million years. He's high energy, high strung, vocal, and at almost 3 his lower jaw still quivers when he sees a ball or jute. While being a benefit for my son's safety, he in no way fits the profile I would want in a service dog. 

There does need to be a better system for certifying these dogs.


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## Andaka

I go back to my previous post -- if someone is going to train service dogs for a fee, the trainer should be certified. That would allow those of us who want to train our own dogs to still be able to do so without riding the bus to some central location to get our dogs certified.


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## Mrs.K

You know, within SAR we are yearning for national certification standards. These dogs do not even have access like service dogs yet we HAVE to certify to go out and search for people. 

Therapy dogs get certified. Don't have the same access Service Dogs, yet they have to get certified. 

Just for the legal aspect to protect yourself from a liability I'd be pushing hard for a NATIONAL certification process from:

a: screwing people over big time
b: PUBLIC ACCESS AND LIABILITY
c: Better selection process for dogs. 

These dogs go on public transportation, they go into malls, restaurants, schools, anywhere public and because they are service dogs they are trusted blindly by the public. 

There HAS GOT TO BE SOMETHING in place that proofs that your dog is bomb proof in the public. Just because you say so doesn't mean that the dog really is trustworthy as a Service Dog. 

If I show up on a search are these people really supposed to trust my word that she is indeed a Search Dog even though I don't have any kind or form, proof of certification? 

If you want to use the Disabled Parking Spots you need proof that you are disabled and put it in your window or get it as a license plate in order to use those parking lots. Anybody else gets a ticket and that's how it's ought to be with the dogs. 

Either that or live with the fact that more an more bad press is popping up and soon every Service Dog will be shunned and you have to fight more and more to take him to places. 

Disabled people ALL OVER THE COUNTRY should be in an uproar and demand certification to protect themselves from imposters, bad trainers and bad dogs. But what do they do? They dig themselves deeper and deeper into a hole where soon they can't get themselves out anymore.

If you want it, you can pull together as a whole. TDI managed to set up a certification standard and if they can do it Nationwide, even Worldwide, Service Dog Handlers can do the same. 

It's a lame excuse to say: It's impossible, how are we supposed to certify our dogs.


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## BlackPuppy

Wow! I know how screaming can cause dogs to react. I've seen it in one of my own dogs, who was trying to tell my puppy to stop screaming because her foot was caught in a fence and she couldn't get loose. Good thing I was right there to intervene.

Also, we should have similar laws as Europe for dogs riding on public transportation. They must wear a muzzle! I remember hearing about the SD that bit a passenger on an airplane.


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## AbbyK9

I have said this previously but it probably bears repeating.

I don't think it would be overly difficult to set up a basic Public Access test standard that all Service Dogs would need to pass. Actually, I think the ADI Public Access Test would be an excellent template for this. 

What we then need are experienced trainers to test people. Just like there's a list of CGC testers that you can get from the AKC and contact in your area, there could be a list for Public Access Testers that you can get via a website and that you could then contact to schedule a public access test. As many disabled persons wouldn't be able to travel to take the test, the testers would be required to travel to them, so there would probably need to be a fee for this.

But I don't see why this couldn't be done. Also, this would not in any way require the testers to ask about the person's disability or about the dog's actual tasks, it would just ensure that the dog is safe in public and has mastered basic public access tasks.

I also agree with Carole that dogs on public transportation, especially aircraft, should probably be muzzled. Even the safest dog may be freaked out or stressed by airplane travel and that's really not something you can train for unless you have a lot of money and frequent access to planes.


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## Andaka

SAR dogs need certification bacause they may deal with evidence recovery. therapy dogs get certification to be covered under the group's (TDI, Love on a leash, ect.) liability insurance. Service dogs are covered by their owners.


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## Mrs.K

Andaka said:


> SAR dogs need certification bacause they may deal with evidence recovery. therapy dogs get certification to be covered under the group's (TDI, Love on a leash, ect.) liability insurance. Service dogs are covered by their owners.


And who protects the public from "Service Dogs" and the disabled from those "Service Dog Trainers"?

Nah, Andaka. Not good enough.


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## ILGHAUS

I would like to inject here that most Therapy Dogs are not *certified* but are registered only.

******************************

For those who would like to see requirements changed on SDs then you really need to speak up when the DOJ requests input from the public. You can also contact your local Representatives and give your thoughts and request that changes are made.


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## Mrs.K

I know I can't vote. But can I make requests like these as a resident or do I have to be a citizen?


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## wyominggrandma

Anyone can take ANY dog and make it a "service dog". Just look online. There are groups out there that all you have to do is fill in the application, the dog has to go through NO training, just the owner checking the correct boxes,and it also doesn't have to even have a vet check, just check the correct boxes, put why you need your dog to be a "service dog" and they will certify the dog and send the orange jacket to put on the dog.
There are a couple of these "service dogs" here that are no more trained or anything, but one owner says she needs her dog "because she doesn't like crowds, so the dog keeps her calm". Balony. She just wants to be able to take the dog into stores without problems. this particular dog has a few screws loose. The other one is a maltese that the lady takes everywhere because some breeder told her that maltese help people with breathing problems since they have a hole in their heads and when she is having difficulty breathing(asthma) she squeezes the dogs chest and a special powder comes out its head and makes her breath easier.
This is the truth, not telling stories. Both these dogs were able to become "certified" service dogs and have the orange vest. 
Pretty sad. No training, no anything. When I did therapy work with my rescue greyhound, I had to go through training, testing and even have the vet certification that the dog was healthy, well trained, etc. Only then, through Delta Dogs did I get the certification and collar tag for hospital visits.
Ilghous my therapy dog was a "certified" therapy dog that had to pass tests, involving people, noises, being grabbed by strangers, obedience and other types of traing before she was considered okay to visit hospitals. 

Is harder to pass Therapy dog training than getting a dog a bogus service dog vest.
If the lady was doing the "training" for this service dog, maybe she just did the online garbage and the dog was "certified" for the soldier.


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## Xeph

> And who protects the public from "Service Dogs" and the disabled from those "Service Dog Trainers"?


Well, the public would be better protected in general if they weren't so doggone RUDE for one thing, and quit rushing service dogs and their handlers.


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## AbbyK9

> I would like to inject here that most Therapy Dogs are not *certified* but are registered only.


I disagree.

The term "certify" means that someone endorses or attests to something or guarantees that someone/something meets a set standard - such as a tester vouching for the fact that the dog/handler passed the necessary testing to become a Therapy Dog in that organization. If we are talking about an organization that requires dogs and handlers to perform a series of tasks, which are rated "pass" or "fail" by a representative of that organization, then they are certifying. 

Registration implies that there is no requirement to test under an official from that organization and that you can simply register the dog (ie, send in a photo and a membership fee).


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## dazedtrucker

*Patterson says it's easy for children to trigger dogs like German Shepherds, even if they are well trained. Hearing that the boy had a puncture on his hand and then was bit several times in the face fits the pattern of how these dogs can react to a playful child.

*Really? Wow. "these dogs". What dogs? Service dogs? German Shepherds? I've never known a GSD that would bite a child in the face KILLING said child because the child, even if he or she was screaming..."pattern of how THESE DOGS react? OMFG! I think "these dogs" are mentally unstable psycho dogs...I've never had a Shepherd that would hurt a child for screaming, or known one...I've never seen a dog more patient and gentle with kids than a GSD...I had more issues with Greyhounds, who are also pretty darn trustworthy with kids, but not as much as my Shepherds...


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## Chicagocanine

Some therapy dog organizations do call it "certification" others just call it testing/registration.



Mrs.K said:


> Therapy dogs get certified. Don't have the same access Service Dogs, yet they have to get certified.


Dogs can do the "job" a therapy dog does without requiring that they are certified/registered though. Some people bring their pets into places like hospitals etc without ever taking any therapy dog test or having any specific training. Some other places just require the CGC to do this. Some places let people just bring their pets in (or puppies, that have not had any training yet.) I also know several groups who bring cats in (in some cases, they are pets; in others they are shelter cats) to do therapy work which have not been tested or certified by any group. 



wyominggrandma said:


> Anyone can take ANY dog and make it a "service dog". Just look online. There are groups out there that all you have to do is fill in the application, the dog has to go through NO training, just the owner checking the correct boxes,and it also doesn't have to even have a vet check, just check the correct boxes, put why you need your dog to be a "service dog" and they will certify the dog and send the orange jacket to put on the dog.


That is not a service dog, though. There are laws that define a service dog, which include that the dog must be trained, must do a task to mitigate a disability, and that the handler must be considered disabled under the law.



wyominggrandma said:


> There are a couple of these "service dogs" here that are no more trained or anything, but one owner says she needs her dog "because she doesn't like crowds, so the dog keeps her calm".


This is not a service dog, either. If the dog just keeps her calm that is not an acceptable task for a dog to be considered a service dog. A dog whose presence keeps someone calm is not included in the legal definitions of service dogs. If this person is actually disabled, it sounds more like an emotional service animal, which do not have any public access.




wyominggrandma said:


> The other one is a maltese that the lady takes everywhere because some breeder told her that maltese help people with breathing problems since they have a hole in their heads and when she is having difficulty breathing(asthma) she squeezes the dogs chest and a special powder comes out its head and makes her breath easier.
> This is the truth, not telling stories. Both these dogs were able to become "certified" service dogs and have the orange vest.


This is also not a service dog. Even if her asthma is bad enough for her to be considered to have a disability under the law, the dog's presence helping her breathe easier would not be considered an acceptable task, and if the dog has no training that is not acceptable under the law either. The bogus certification does not mean anything.




wyominggrandma said:


> When I did therapy work with my rescue greyhound, I had to go through training, testing and even have the vet certification that the dog was healthy, well trained, etc. Only then, through Delta Dogs did I get the certification and collar tag for hospital visits.


The "service dog" examples you mentioned are not true service dogs though so it is not really valid to compare them to a dog who has been through training and testing and is a therapy dog. It's similar to if someone went and bought a vest that said "therapy dog" and started telling hospitals their dog was a certified therapy dog and visiting, without the dog having any obedience training at all; or if they used an organization where you just fill in a form online and they send you paperwork that your dog is a therapy dog (I think there are a few places that may do this actually.)
Well, except the difference is that I do not think that is actually against the law as I don't think there are any specific "therapy dog" laws, the person just would have no insurance to back them up if something happened with their "therapy dog".


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## wyominggrandma

CHICHAGOCANINE: did you even READ what I wrote???
I KNOW they are not service dogs, I was stating that it is VERY easy to get a service dog blanket over the internet WITHOUT ANY training or testing whatsoever.I was using these as examples of how SIMPLE it was to claim the dog is a service dog, even though it might be a biting unstable dog................
Besides, if you had paid any attention to what I wrote the maltese owners says her dog has a special HOLE IN ITS HEAD to spray out special powder to make it easier for her to breath. Not even possible for a dog to do that, just another example of how easy it is for someone to get a SERVICE DOG blanket.
I am not STUPID, I KNOW what a true service dog training entails.... I was just saying how easy it is for ANYONE to get a blanket .


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## mysweetkaos

wyominggrandma said:


> Anyone can take ANY dog and make it a "service dog". Just look online. There are groups out there that all you have to do is fill in the application, the dog has to go through NO training, just the owner checking the correct boxes,and it also doesn't have to even have a vet check, just check the correct boxes, put why you need your dog to be a "service dog" and they will certify the dog and send the orange jacket to put on the dog.
> There are a couple of these "service dogs" here that are no more trained or anything, but one owner says she needs her dog "because she doesn't like crowds, so the dog keeps her calm". Balony. She just wants to be able to take the dog into stores without problems. this particular dog has a few screws loose. _The other one is a maltese that the lady takes everywhere because some breeder told her that maltese help people with breathing problems since they have a hole in their heads and when she is having difficulty breathing(asthma) she squeezes the dogs chest and a special powder comes out its head and makes her breath easier._
> This is the truth, not telling stories. Both these dogs were able to become "certified" service dogs and have the orange vest.
> Pretty sad. No training, no anything. When I did therapy work with my rescue greyhound, I had to go through training, testing and even have the vet certification that the dog was healthy, well trained, etc. Only then, through Delta Dogs did I get the certification and collar tag for hospital visits.
> Ilghous my therapy dog was a "certified" therapy dog that had to pass tests, involving people, noises, being grabbed by strangers, obedience and other types of traing before she was considered okay to visit hospitals.
> 
> Is harder to pass Therapy dog training than getting a dog a bogus service dog vest.
> If the lady was doing the "training" for this service dog, maybe she just did the online garbage and the dog was "certified" for the soldier.


Well I must admit I did not expect to find anything to make me laugh that hard in a thread like this....people are crazy.


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## wyominggrandma

oh yea and she was really serious. I was trying to explain to her that was not possible in a very serious way while not laughing out loud. But she got her little service dog blanket online. Can u just picture this poor little dog being squeezed like a squeeky toy while she is breathing deeply at the top of its head?


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## ILGHAUS

"Certifying" on-line is not only for Service Dogs though SDs seem to be the most popular with Internet vendors.

We have on-line certification for Therapy Dogs (and on-line purchase of TD vests) or other Therapy Animals:
https://www.usarplus.com/PackagePage1.asp

And one of our all time favorite organizations (Bolding mine) --

"SARA Certified and SARA Registered Animals:
SARA registers and certifies *service dogs, therapy dogs, Search and Rescue Dogs*, and all other species of service (assistance) and therapy animals, including: service dogs, therapy dogs, service cats, therapy cats, service primates, therapy primates, service monkey, therapy monkey, service birds, therapy bird, service horses, service equine, therapy equine, service dog."
http://www.affluent.net/sara/


I looked into the possibility at one time and saw that for a little over $400. and a picture I could register my min. poodle to be a SD, a TD, and a SAR dog with the paperwork, ID cards, and vests to flash around.


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## Mrs.K

> I looked into the possibility at one time and saw that for a little over $400. and a picture I could register my min. poodle to be a SD, a TD, and a *SAR dog with the paperwork, ID cards, and vests to flash around*.


Won't do you any good under the Federation, for example. The dog has to be NYSFEDSAR certified if you are or want to be with the FEDSAR team. That's when it all falls apart.


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## GSDkid

> "My initial thought was maybe he nipped, and the child began screaming and the dog panicked and he wanted to fix the scream so he went for the mouth and the face area which is why he went for the attack," said Patterson.


 I could see that happening. When my girl nips me and I yell "OUCH!!!" she comes back and corrects it by mouthing the area she nipped. Basically saying "Sorry, I bit too hard. Here's the correct way." 

A six year old boy (approx. 50-60 lbs) left alone with a GSD (80-85 lbs). I guess the adults just lacked awareness?


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## wyominggrandma

Just goes to show how easy it is for anyone to become a" trainer" for service dogs.All they have to do is apply online for a dog they have, fill out the application, pay the money and they have magically trained a service dog for the public to buy and or own one.
Its pretty scary, any unstable, biting dog could end up with service dog "certification". Who knows the whole story about this dog that "killed" the child. Maybe it was not a true service dog, just a "fake" one. Maybe the soldier didn't have a clue about what his dog's actual training was, just took the word of the "trainer" as to what this dog actually was. Seems as if its an easy way to make some money, get "service dogs" from the rescues or pounds, train them the basic obedience commands, then fill out paperwork and magically they have a service dog to sell or give to a soldier or person who needs a service dog. No ideas on the dogs background, just a quick turn around money maker.
Sad, but I bet it is happening alot with the seemingly endless people who are advised to get a "service dog" to help them with any number of issues and being allowed to take said "service dog" out in public. I imagine this scenerio of what happened with this child will be seen more and more as time goes on.


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## wyominggrandma

One canine into a juglar vein and a person will bleed out quickly. A 6 year old would have probably started crying at the first bite and the reactions of the dog went from there.
Remember the story of the grizzly bear in California that had been trained for "fighting" with humans, the cousin of the owner wanted some photos taken of the bear with him. You can see the video, that bear when up on his legs and grabbed the guy on the neck, threw him down and the trainers got the bear off the guy he got up and ran a few yards and then fell down and bled out within minutes. 
The boy might have gotten bit like that the first thing, was able to cry out, but already dying. Horrible for anyone involved.


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## Chicagocanine

wyominggrandma said:


> CHICHAGOCANINE: did you even READ what I wrote???
> I KNOW they are not service dogs, I was stating that it is VERY easy to get a service dog blanket over the internet WITHOUT ANY training or testing whatsoever.I was using these as examples of how SIMPLE it was to claim the dog is a service dog, even though it might be a biting unstable dog..


Yes, I did read what you wrote. My point was that comparing a person fraudulently buying service dog certification over the internet is not comparable to a person legitimately training and testing a dog to be a therapy dog. The former would be more comparable to someone buying a vest that said "therapy dog" and then going and visiting hospitals claiming their dog is a therapy dog even though they've had no testing or training.


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## Mrs.K

Chicagocanine said:


> Yes, I did read what you wrote. My point was that comparing a person fraudulently buying service dog certification over the internet is not comparable to a person legitimately training and testing a dog to be a therapy dog. The former would be more comparable to someone buying a vest that said "therapy dog" and then going and visiting hospitals claiming their dog is a therapy dog even though they've had no testing or training.


Who makes sure that those that "legitimately " train their dogs have trained them to the full extend? Who makes sure that, while they are honest people and try to do the right thing, have picked the right dog and really know what they are doing? 

Just look into Therapy and SAR how many dogs are weeded out in the certification process. All those people have legitimately been on a team, have trained and put a lot of work into it, yet it just wasn't enough and they failed, even though they are experienced handlers. 

Service Dogs are supposed to help in life threatening situations, help their owners to get through everyday tasks, and most of these people have never even had a dog before and now, all of a sudden are supposed to HOT a dog? 

Look at what kind of questions we look here every single day and we are supposed to trust these people to pick an train the dog right? 

Yes, there are a few experienced handlers on here that have Service Dogs but the majority and the general public simply doesn't have that kind of experience. And because of that, accidents will keep happening and those fraudulent creatures will only make it worse FOR Service Dog Access. 

Put a certification process into place and protect Service Dogs and their Handlers, make it harder for fraud.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Who makes sure that those that "legitimately " train their dogs have trained them to the full extend? Who makes sure that, while they are honest people and try to do the right thing, have picked the right dog and really know what they are doing?
> 
> Just look into Therapy and SAR how many dogs are weeded out in the certification process. All those people have legitimately been on a team, have trained and put a lot of work into it, yet it just wasn't enough and they failed, even though they are experienced handlers.
> 
> Service Dogs are supposed to help in life threatening situations, help their owners to get through everyday tasks, and most of these people have never even had a dog before and now, all of a sudden are supposed to HOT a dog?
> 
> Look at what kind of questions we look here every single day and we are supposed to trust these people to pick an train the dog right?
> 
> Yes, there are a few experienced handlers on here that have Service Dogs but the majority and the general public simply doesn't have that kind of experience. And because of that, accidents will keep happening and those fraudulent creatures will only make it worse FOR Service Dog Access.
> 
> Put a certification process into place and protect Service Dogs and their Handlers, make it harder for fraud.


I think the problem is that being a service dog is so varied that it would be hard to get the dog tested/certified for whatever they need to do, and it may be very difficult to a truly disabled person.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I think the problem is that being a service dog is so varied that it would be hard to get the dog tested/certified for whatever they need to do, and it may be very difficult to a truly disabled person.


AbbyK9 actually had a very good idea. It doesn't have to be the medical task. 




> I have said this previously but it probably bears repeating.
> 
> I don't think it would be overly difficult to set up a basic Public Access test standard that all Service Dogs would need to pass. Actually, * I think the ADI Public Access Test would be an excellent template for this.
> 
> What we then need are experienced trainers to test people. Just like there's a list of CGC testers that you can get from the AKC and contact in your area, there could be a list for Public Access Testers that you can get via a website and that you could then contact to schedule a public access test. As many disabled persons wouldn't be able to travel to take the test, the testers would be required to travel to them, so there would probably need to be a fee for this.* *
> 
> But I don't see why this couldn't be done. Also, this would not in any way require the testers to ask about the person's disability or about the dog's actual tasks, it would just ensure that the dog is safe in public and has mastered basic public access tasks.*
> 
> I also agree with Carole that dogs on public transportation, especially aircraft, should probably be muzzled. Even the safest dog may be freaked out or stressed by airplane travel and that's really not something you can train for unless you have a lot of money and frequent access to planes.
> __________________


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## OriginalWacky

> Actually, I think the ADI Public Access Test would be an excellent template for this.
> 
> What we then need are experienced trainers to test people. Just like there's a list of CGC testers that you can get from the AKC and contact in your area, there could be a list for Public Access Testers that you can get via a website and that you could then contact to schedule a public access test. As many disabled persons wouldn't be able to travel to take the test, the testers would be required to travel to them, so there would probably need to be a fee for this.
> 
> But I don't see why this couldn't be done. Also, this would not in any way require the testers to ask about the person's disability or about the dog's actual tasks, it would just ensure that the dog is safe in public and has mastered basic public access tasks.


I would be SO thrilled if this were to come to pass... that you can self-train your dogs and have a test that could show that our dog(s) have mastered the public access part of the test. If we weren't self-training, we'd have to spend thousands, and not even get to pick out our own dog. And even then, we could get bilked out of our money, and wind up with a dog that won't do the jobs we need or will be unreliable.


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## selzer

My problem with that, is for outlying areas, like where I live or worse than where I live. We don't have cable or internet down my street, we don't have a pet store in this county, we do not have a dog park or a beach open to dogs in my county, we do not have a government run shelter in the county. So, I think that a disabled person might have to drive their dog for hours to get them near a tester. 

In NY or Los Angeles, a service dog might be required to ride escalators -- there are none in this county, subways -- none, be in heavily crowded areas -- non-existent, ride a bus -- we do not have any bus service here. 

I do not know how a disabled person would manage to get their dog used to riding on a subway or a bus, or an escalator here. 

So I think to require a public access test for those of us in remote areas would be a hardship on disabled people.


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## Vandagriff

The trainer that was interviewed, is a nice person, who was nervous, felt pressured to explain the situation. She has 4a GSDs, works with animal control and several rescue groups. She regrets doing the interview and understands that she came off poorly. I do know her personally, I buy my dog food from her and we both take our dogs to the same herding trainer. Again, she has GSDs, she's kind and caring, she had nothing to do with training the dog in question.


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## AbbyK9

> My problem with that, is for outlying areas, like where I live or worse than where I live. We don't have cable or internet down my street, we don't have a pet store in this county, we do not have a dog park or a beach open to dogs in my county, we do not have a government run shelter in the county. So, I think that a disabled person might have to drive their dog for hours to get them near a tester.


This could be solved by having the tester come to them for a nominal (travel) fee to do the test.



> In NY or Los Angeles, a service dog might be required to ride escalators -- there are none in this county, subways -- none, be in heavily crowded areas -- non-existent, ride a bus -- we do not have any bus service here.


If those aren't a requirement where you live and where you'll be with your dog, it would make sense not to test those. For example, if a person with a disability lives in a rural area and doesn't have public transportation, it's probably safe to say the dog won't be ON public transportation. There are other tasks they could test for this dog/handler team - like entering and exiting a vehicle in a controlled way, for example - since they probably will drive (or be driven) places if there's no public transportation.


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## Chicagocanine

In case anyone doesn't know what is meant by public access test, here is one of the public access tests that is often recommended(but not required):

Public Access Test - Assistance Dogs International


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