# Czech/WGerman x 2nd generation



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Question

And yes, no doubt I am considering a one time breeding but still doing belly flips and maybe it will be even a moot point Monday after Grim gets his semen checked. If we do, I will insist the pups are all limited registration.

I have seen several very nice dogs that are blends of West German working and Czech/DDR lines. Obvoiusly with good lines on both sides to begin with........ Is that a phenomenon for the first generation where there is a signifcant outcross....what about going forward. How are 2nd, 3rd, etc generations of these crosses doing? Is it improving the breed? Hurting? 

I believe diversity is a good genetic truth within bounds -so diluting the DDR and Czech lines seems scary

I have seen a resurgence of nice working line GSDs and what I am trying to avoid is the low threshold all sports dog -- That seems a little bit harder to find. 

If his sperm are bad, I will be looking to insights on finding a solid dog for cadaver work, but want one with an off switch and genetic obedience as well as insane ball drive and focus and excellent nerve strength. I don't want a frantic crazy worker but a solid worker who can work for hours.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Some of the well established Czech breeders are crossing out to WGR and Belgian lines....and many WGR kennels used some Czech and then went back to WGR ....Gent od Polizie was used alot in WGR....and my D & E (Belgian born/registered), F, G & H had Gent - lots and lots of ball drive, most have off switches with one or two cat obsessed to the point of staring and drooling on my cat! Hunt drives very very nice overall...

My C litter was a DDR w a little Czech female to a WGR male.....and it worked super - giving me SAR/LE K9 and Schutzhund titled dogs who also could be LE...the next generation went to a Belgian male and it is exactly what I wanted...we will see next fall on the next generation from that - which may go back to a Czech/Belgian male....(I-Bengal Wolfstraum to Kutter Landesburg is on the drawing table right now)...

Depending on the pedigrees, there are certain combos I would probably like and certain I would avoid...if you want to send me a link I would be interested in seeing it.

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Done - I do appreciate insight. These decisions are not to be made lightly. I know two great dogs together can make a dud if things are not right. And even if they are....you just don't know. 

Have you seen 2nd generation breedings where they have gone back say a czechxwgr to a czechxwgr work well or are they dicier?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Slightly OT, but Lee, wouldn't as a general rule...crossing with Belgium lines create more of the "sport type" dog? Or do you think it creates a nice balance? Or is it highly dependant on the individual dogs?

Sorry to hijack the thread! I'm just having too much fun with the pedigree threads lately..............


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If possible, maybe we could make specific crosses their own thread? I was kind of really wanting to know about 2nd and 3rd generations..people breag on pure DDR (come on the wall has been down for over 20 years now)..and pure DDR had old showlines in them, Pure Czech (that usually has some DDR) etc. Is complete mix and match of the various working lines good for the breed overall or is it good to maintain specific types within the working lines?......."melting pot" within reason-obviouslyu not with what is not worth perpetuating vs mainaining separate genetic populations.....hmmmmmmmm........realize I don't know what I am talking about but I think it is a good question....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Well - the DDR dog I had was insane with hunt drive, and not insane for dumbbells - even though we did Sch/IPO3 7 or 8 times .....with 2 HIT....but I needed to bring in the desire to work for the handler and a desire to retrieve and return to the handler....positive type training is used as much maybe more I think with Belgian dogs and so the breeding is producing dogs who respond and want to work with you while the old style German compulsion training is still winning at the top in Germany and dogs bred on certain lines are able to deal with that style....I like what I get from the Ufo and Tom dogs (and those two are balancing a seesaw for ob)....and I really really liked the blend of bringing the Belgian with the DDR/Czech and some of the WGR to step up/keep/reinforce the ability for civil work.

Lee


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

My PM has a good example for you 

I think (with my very limited knowledge) that well thought out crosses are good for the genetics of the breed and maintaining or enhancing desirable qualities. 

I'm off to training, but I think there was a thread on the other board awhile ago that dealt a little bit about what dogs mix well with other "types" (i.e. ASL x Czech = bad news...even generations down the line).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think if I say what I think - I will not be able to say anything 

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh I had a west german showlines dog crossed witch Czech and he was a nervebag disaster with all kinds of health problems.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kennls like Venusina Sopka, Aritar Bastet, Anrebri, and others have been crossing Czech and West working for 3,4, generations. This is not new and many good dogs of today if looked at closely, are the result of this.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Fairly new to reading pedigrees and the working line world but I am very fond of the Czech crosses being produced by some. 

I find myself being drawn to Czech/WG and Czech/Belgium dogs - I find that some pairings can be very "sporty" but I wouldn't generalize these crosses as ALL being such.

I, like you am looking for crosses that will produce HIGH thresholds, highly motivated (food and toy) working dogs that can excel in sport but not be too "sporty/prey monkies". I think they are out there but I think you really have to understand the dogs being paired up too..


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Aren't most top-performing Czech dogs currently a product of several generations of West German and old Czech lines. For example, Stormfront's Brawnson and Erri and Erri's sire, Orry.

Lee, you say:
_
I like what I get from the Ufo and Tom dogs (and those two are balancing a seesaw for ob)_

Who is on which end of the seesaw?  I am not as familiar with Tom, but I know what Verwin and Orry/Olko brought in a few generations before Tom (lots and lots of prey, good strong nerves). I understand Ufo brings in high, high prey and lots of hunt drive?

What do you think Tom brings to the table?

_....and I really really liked the blend of bringing the Belgian with the DDR/Czech and some of the WGR to step up/keep/reinforce the ability for civil work._

It seemed like it could work very well, especially since some of the top Belgian dogs go back to some of the DDR dogs (Glockeneck, Ingo Rudingen).

I'm looking forward to seeing how my DDR/WGerm(Belgian) litter turns out. So far, they're all very good at downstays!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I had been considering the idea of mating my dog - who is a very nice working czech/ddr cadaver dog to another dog, who is west german working but it has become a moot point. 

The vet got two samples today and he is shooting blanks. So no Grimlets

But I will be looking for 2012 and am probably back to looking for an older puppy male (we have a spayed female who is not fond of other girlies but fine with males and I actually LIKE males better....).......the challenge will be getting one not to old to integrate into a house with an adult male (who is excellent around other dogs) but old enough to have a GOOD assesment of structure and drives and temperament.................

This dog.....has been great for me
Grim van der Woude - German shepherd dog


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Aren't most top-performing Czech dogs currently a product of several generations of West German and old Czech lines. For example, Stormfront's Brawnson and Erri and Erri's sire, Orry.
> 
> Lee, you say:
> _
> ...


I think both Tom and Ufo bring much of the same - with Ufo compensating for the OB- so reinforcement of good hunt drive, power in protection....Interestingly, Orry was not so easily motivated in OB according to my sources, and NOT considered to be strong nerved by many....but as many consider Ronny v d Berghe one of the best trainers in the world, Eros, ****** and Como all look terrific in OB.....he told Dan Cox, who has my Furi from ****** and Basha at the worlds last fall that ****** was "ordinary" in OB - but super in tracking and protection...The Ufo dogs have so much prey and strength that they are not the easiest to train - Ufo himself was sold as a pup to a guy in California - and offered for sale at a year old as he was 'too much' for his owner...whom I have spoken to quite a few times - and LOL my friend in MD actually had considered buying him, showing me a copy of his pedigree when I was doing the C litter breeding to Xito...H Cayos Xazziam was through several owners as he had too much drive for several earlier handlers to control...the Tom helps temper that I think and you can get terrific OB it seems combining Tom and Ufo....

I have also combined Ufo with my Xito/DDR female and loved what I got there........natural retreives, tons of ball drive, and social dogs with balance.

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Cliff - right!

Few years back, people would look down on WG/Czech combos. Now, it is "in".

People wanted pure German, Belgium, DDR (even though the wall...)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know a few years back, most of the Czech dogs I saw in SAR were reactive nervy dogs.....high drive but too reactive.

It seems now I have seen many good Czech/Blends doing SAR and Police Service work and, not as many of the straight West German sports dogs - at least what I have observed in my area. 

*I am not sure if my Czech/DDR dog is an anomaly* but he is incredibly *nice* and wonderful to live with but when he turns on he is a working machine. The dog will just come in and sit with his head on my knee and gaze into my eyes when I am working at the computer. I don't want the dog that is going to shred a crate, or require compulsion, or not be trustworthy around children and small animals - but do need a dog that will hunt a negative area (cadaver dog) for upwards of 6 hours with small scattered breaks..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Six years ago I imported Olex Aritar Bastet, his father was Gandalf Oberhausener Kreuz (W), and his mother was Justa Aritar Bastet,(C), who was a sister to Jaguar Aritar Bastet. Justa and Jaguar were out of Sirk vom Belchen,(W), and Cara Junak, an all Czech daughter of Tom z PS. So Jaguar and Justa would be at least 8 to 10 years old and in the 4th generation of some breedings.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Our "blends" are very solid. Emi (retired) is a service dog to autistic child. Cara laid a SCH2-3 level track for Enzo and then ran the track with him.

Very strong in the fight drive, not nervy and excellent solid temperament.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> ...Interestingly, Orry was not so easily motivated in OB according to my sources, and NOT considered to be strong nerved by many....


I bred a bitch to Olko and met him several times (spent several long ties hanging out with him, holding his leash....). In my opinion, he was very strong nerved, but not very strong to the handler. That is, he was not a "bad ass" in his personality--was more easygoing than that, but he showed no signs of nerviness in a casual situation.

I watched the Orry son Siggo v Haus Antverpa in training for a couple of years. He had bottomless drive and an incredibly high pain threshold. He had very good fight drive but almost nothing could push him into real defense--not nervy at all. He was weak in the OB phase, IMO, because he wasn't sensitive enough to the handler and was rather insensitive to corrections. He was trained with a lot of compulsion during the time that I watched him train (with ball/tug/sleeve rewards), but it wasn't really effective at making him any "flashier" in obed, although I suppose he did gain some accuracy. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I can see how the Orry line might not excel in the obedience phase, but I still think that all the progeny I saw had very good nerves--but not necessarily a balance of prey/defense.

Thanks for the info, Lee.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The Czech dogs have been good police dogs for the last 10 to 15 years. This is because when the curtain came down they had an excellent blend of nerve/fight drive/ and hardness(resilence). They also had good active aggression that is needed in police work. I remember talking to high level sport people about Czech dogs 15 years ago and most told you they were too nervy. Then I would train with my police friends (where Czech dogs dominated at the time) and they were very happy with these dogs and they performed well. That's when I realized how far sport and real work was drifting. Flashy obedience is not needed in real work, hardness is not needed in sport, in police work it is. (Hardness is about resilence and the ability to recover fast and continue to learn or develop.) Police dogs must go through a training period that is fixed and must reach a certain level of competence(certification) to work the streets. These academies are often 16 to 20 weeks of duration.) Sport dogs have a lifetime to accomplish their goals. I have been in many Sch clubs with dogs that don't reach Sch 3 until they are 4 or 5 years. My point is often dogs are labeled by people who have limited knowledge of application and experience. The one constant that sport and working people will agree on; is the essence of this breed is the nerve base which allows th dog to either work or compete in sport or be a fantastic pet/family dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting comment. So perhaps these dogs have not really changed but perhaps my perception has over time as I have gotten more comfortable. Off to a seminar.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> My point is often dogs are labeled by people who have limited knowledge of application and experience. The one constant that sport and working people will agree on; is the essence of this breed is the nerve base which allows th dog to either work or compete in sport or be a fantastic pet/family dog.



Which is the character idealized by the standard! 

thank you Cliff!

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Czech/WGR crosses are something that has really piqued my interest in recent years, and something I've started slowly incorporating into our breeding, though carefully as my knowledge of the Czech lines is still in it's infancy (and many thanks to my dear friend Cliff for all the hours he's spent educating me in that area!). My experience thus far with this blend has been limited, but I'll say what I've seen thus far.

We did a breeding of a WGR bitch to a Czech male, and overall the results were very nice. Very strong and balanced drives, but not extreme drive in any sense. High thresholds (much higher than the WGR dam possesses herself) and definite off switches and the ability to settle, not just physically but also mentally, and very clear headed. Physical hardness yes, as well as resiliency overall to negative experiences, but also very handler sensitive. Some so much they'd be beyond handler sensitive to the point of handler soft. While I love the "genetic obedience" that accompanies that handler sensitivity, we ended up with too much of it in this particular pairing. Also most are tip top of the standard and a few oversized despite coming from middle of the standard sized parents (though not entirely a surprise as the genes for larger size are there in the pedigree). I would love to find something that would produce the same results, just with less handler sensitivity and ideally a bit smaller size.

Then we have an almost 6mo Czech/WGR cross female. And are totally in love. This pup is fantastic. Very strong prey and food drive. Not much else yet but then I wouldn't expect it given her age and we're in no rush to start her, but given what's been seen in her older siblings (she's from a repeat breeding) I have no doubt there will be strong aggression coming as she matures. Absolutely bomb proof in the nerves. Nothing phases her at all. And hard, hard, hard. But not at all a butthead. Very handler focused, very directable, very willing to work with the handler, strong genetic obedience (at least when she's not being a mischevious imp!) but without being overly handler sensitive. And calm. I've never had a puppy this calm. She's really a very mellow, easy going, completely non-crazy puppy and has been since we got her. Until you turn her on, then the crazy comes out. Just very settled in general and very high threshold, but not so high you have to do much work to flick the "on" switch. Really fantastic pup in every way and we couldn't be happier with what we're seeing at this point.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Chris, that female describes exactly (assuming the hunt drive is there) what I will be looking for next time around.

For most of my cadaver stuff I really don't want balls to the walls all the time. Much of the work is tedious and slow but it may be all day. It takes a lot of drive to work 4 -6 hours worth of negative and delay that reward and a dog that can focus.

And we have had some crazy real life tests of nerve strength.

It is also not uncommon to have to load two dogs and two handlers in the back of a gator so being dog neutral is also so important. 

I always ask folks when I see a dog tha impresses me.....that is why either Czech or the mix would be the place I would look. If the hunt is there I would love to know the content (or of any dog meeting these attributes)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, send Jazz here please - that is exactly what I am looking for in my next pup!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Very strong prey and food drive. Absolutely bomb proof in the nerves. Nothing phases her at all. And hard, hard, hard. But not at all a butthead. Very handler focused, very directable, very willing to work with the handler, strong genetic obedience (at least when she's not being a mischevious imp!) but without being overly handler sensitive. And calm. I've never had a puppy this calm. She's really a very mellow, easy going, completely non-crazy puppy and has been since we got her. Until you turn her on, then the crazy comes out. Just very settled in general and very high threshold, but not so high you have to do much work to flick the "on" switch. Really fantastic pup in every way and we couldn't be happier with what we're seeing at this point.


I want this, exactly and to a T.


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