# Changing to Raw..How/What to feed??



## shandy (Jul 21, 2010)

Right here i go...Have been reading up on best way to feed our new pup. So far we have been feeding him James well beloved kibble. The main problem we have is choice of kibble here on the Isle of Man where we live (cant get the ones i want to feed him). We never really considered raw feeding until now. I have read more and more regarding RAW/BARF feeding and all the benifits it has and also my way of thinking that in their natural enviroment they kill animals and eat all of them so we now have decided to go ahead and try RAW feeding. 

Obviously We want to get it right from the start, so my questions are probably ones that have been asked so many times but for me i just want a post that i have started and can see the results and use them (if you all know what i mean)

Sabre is 13wks old, currently gets three meals a day of kibble.


1)Do i basically go to my butchers and ask for raw products
2)What should those products be
3)Do i just put the "bones" in his bowl along with meat or do you break the bones up given his age at the moment
4)Can you mix the meats or do you have to wean one off before starting another

I know these may be pretty basic or stupid questions so apologies for being so "dim" but just want to make sure i understand the whole process of RAW feeding lol.


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

I feed prey model raw. 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% organ (5% liver and 5% other). I am not sure how to calculate a puppies daily portion. I think it is 2-2.5% of estimated adult weight or 8% of current weight. Someone else should confirm this for me as I always had adults started on raw. Example, Lincoln weighs 65lbs. He gets 1.4lbs a day at 2%. Anymore he gets fat.

I switched cold turkey. Never feed raw and kibble in same meal. You can feed anything but beef bones. Here is what I feed

Chicken quarters
Chicken wings and drumsticks (only if your dog chews as its a choking hazard for larger dogs)
Whole chickens

Pork tails
Pork tongues
Pork side ribs
Pork roasts (Shoulder, tummy)
Pork breasts

Turkey..everything from a turkey

Beef roasts (eye of round, steaks, stewing etc)
Ground beef
Beef trim oddly
Beef tongue

Cornish Game hens, Quail etc

Bison, Venison (Deer), Duck etc etc. I try to avoid beef bones as they are weigh bearing as well as Deer and Bison bones.

Lamb...cannot forget about lamb lol

General rule of thumb.. feed at least half the size of the dogs head to prevent just swallowing. Whole bones are fine, breaking them up would cause a choking hazard. You want him to break them with his teeth.

As for organs I feed anything Liver and Kidney. But for the first two weeks feed nothing but chicken to get him used to raw. Then slowly start adding in others.


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## shandy (Jul 21, 2010)

We went to our local market and were able to get the following over here, *white tripe, rabbits, liver, kidneys, hearts, lamb breast, neck, pig trotters, mince beef & chicken drumsticks & quarters. *This is really all that we can get where we live. We cant order meat, etc from internet sites due to scrict import regulations on meat products.

We have sorted out various "baggies" of approx 400g bags. 1 400g bag will consist of meat and 1 400g bag would be "bone" meal.

Today we gave him a baggie which was mainly consiting of mince beef with kidney.

We are planning to feed him in the morning a "meat Baggie" and evening a "bone Baggie"

I have noticed a lot of people saying to start on one meat only for two weeks or so for him to get used to it. Obviously looks like we have started off wrong!!

Is it possible for me to carry on with the same meats already started on for two weeks or should we do the chicken thing for the two weeks?

By the way, what we gave him he absolutley Loved!! Bowl was clean in 2mins!!, lol

Also noticed straight away he didnt want to poo! It was around 2hrs later he had one, on the kibble we were feeding him after he had eaten he had a poo almost 5mins after eating every meal, I guess thats good too?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

white tripe has no nutritional value~ don't feed it! You should go to www.rawdogranch.com for some information, there are spreadsheets and other invaluable info on feeding a raw diet. 
I mainly feed 45% rawmeatybones
50% musclemeat and 5% organmeat. I feed a variety of protein(pork, beef, chicken, rabbit, venison) and green tripe which has many benefits. www.aplaceforpaws.com has a great article on feeding green tripe. 
IMO, a GSD needs some bones to crunch to get the teeth cleansed. I feed chicken, pork neck bones and turkey necks to help the dogs get that plaque off. If you are feeding a ground premade, the dog still may need to have dentals to remove the gunk.


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## shandy (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok, so white tripe no good? Trouble is we cant get green tripe over here, some of the butchers we spoke to had ever heard of it never mind supply it, those that have heard of it again say that they cant get hold of it to supply us. 

Only other option for us is to try the local slaughter house, see what they can do. 

He had his first chicken thigh today....He loved it, despite myself and my partner cringing at the crunching sounds!!! both thinking "my god! we were told never to feed bones to dogs!!" lol I think he is going to take to the raw diet no problem whatsoever. Next, the cats i think (not for him to eat) am sure they would like to go on raw too! lol


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## dakota20 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fish is also something to feed. Mine LOVES it! Canned mackeral, sardines etc. Sardines can have alot of sodium so go easy on the broth/oil they come in. I rinse the sardines off as best I can too. Jade also really enjoys trout. I buy it fresh from the grocery store and freeze it for a few days to kill any parasites in it. Good luck~


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## shandy (Jul 21, 2010)

I take it with fish you basically just give it to them guts and all? lol Fish bones ok to eat are they?


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## Blitz Burgh Steeler (Jun 13, 2010)

shandy said:


> I take it with fish you basically just give it to them guts and all? lol Fish bones ok to eat are they?


Personally i wouldn't give the guts of ANY fish to my dog.Not even out of clean Florida waters! I may be to protective of him but i see fish organs as good places to concentrate all the pollutants they are exposed too- ie:mercury, lead , fertilizer pollutants etc. My dog can get those nutrients from many safer forms . Just my personal opinion based on what i believe. And i believe are oceans,lakes and waterways are getting more polluted by the day + BP fish oil is not what i want and Blitz surely doesn't need. eace:


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## shandy (Jul 21, 2010)

Thats fine, i didnt like the idea of giving him the innards of a fish, lol. But is it ok for him to have fish bones? Or best to gut and de-bone


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Fish bones (uncooked of course) are fine.

One thing to remember with organs (of ANY animal) is that they are *filters[/] - not sponges.  Their job is to filter the bad stuff out of the blood and DISPOSE OF IT (through waste products).

Livers do not STORE toxins - they work to flush them out of the body.

Now, if you were to feed an animal that had lived a long and hard life, feed toxins on a regular basis and had poor nutrition, then you might see some issues with their organs ( like the liver).

But most animal we feed our dogs - like chickens - live a very short life and their organs have little chance to be damaged by toxins.

Chickens are about 8 WEEKS of age at the time they are slaughtered. Grass-fed beef or bison livers are awesome (if you can find them). Even commercially raised beef livers are ok.

The only thing I would worry about with the fish is if they are not commercially processed. Then you would want to check their gut for any foreign objects - like hooks and such - before you feed them.*


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## ThorDog (Feb 12, 2010)

We are looking to switch also and it seems like a dumb question but we were always told by the vet absolutely no chicken bones, not even pork bones. 
So it is ok, they don't choke or splinter?
How about salmonella risk?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I will let the experts chime in BUT always always RAW bones. Never cooked or smoked bones.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

What about pork chop/steak bones? We have talked about starting ONLY Bella raw. What bones other than cooked can she NOT have. I have pork bones left in the freezer from when we had our pig slaugterd.


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## Blitz Burgh Steeler (Jun 13, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Fish bones (uncooked of course) are fine.
> 
> One thing to remember with organs (of ANY animal) is that they are *filters[/] - not sponges.  Their job is to filter the bad stuff out of the blood and DISPOSE OF IT (through waste products).
> 
> ...


*
Heavy metals do not flush out of the organs !!! Thats how you end up with heavy metal poisoning and fish organs contain heavy metal among other things !PS -filters can clog up !!!1*


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## Blitz Burgh Steeler (Jun 13, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Fish bones (uncooked of course) are fine.
> 
> One thing to remember with organs (of ANY animal) is that they are *filters[/] - not sponges.  Their job is to filter the bad stuff out of the blood and DISPOSE OF IT (through waste products).
> 
> ...


*
Tell that to people with heavy metal poisoning. Distilled water is in an ionic state that allows it to bind to heavy metals in the body and very slowing helps remove it . I have Never seen a distilled natural body of water that any fish inhabit.....The topic was fish guts not chickens which most are raised in a controlled environment as opposed to fish unless they are farm raised !!!*


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

ThorDog said:


> We are looking to switch also and it seems like a dumb question but we were always told by the vet absolutely no chicken bones, not even pork bones.
> So it is ok, they don't choke or splinter?
> How about salmonella risk?


ANY *raw* bones is fine - if the dog can eat it.  My Chinese Cresteds treat chicken legs like recreational bones but my Shepherd eats them whole. 

RAW bones are softer than cooked bones so there's little splintering.

I have raised 4 previous German Shepherds, 1 current GSD, 1 GSD mix, 2 Chinese Crested, a Cocker Spaniel and a Corgi mix on raw. I have weaned two litters of Crested puppies directly to raw. 3 of the puppies from my first Crested litter have NEVER tasted kibble. I've switched countless foster dogs and puppies directly to raw. If they stay at my house they eat raw. 

I've been feeding raw for over 10 years. In that time I've fed over 10 THOUSAND pounds of raw chicken with bone and never once had intestines torn from bone splinters. 

I've fed raw meat that smelled so bad it would singe the hair in your nose! (Not an everyday thing!)

Back when I had chickens the dogs would follow them around and slurp up the chicken poop as it came out and THAT is where Salmonella comes from - chicken poop.

My dogs have caught, killed and eaten many wild rabbits, mice and moles. They have also eaten things long dead (like weeks).

I've fed healthy dogs and I've fed sick dogs raw. I've fed raw to puppies starting at 4 weeks of age.

*I've never had a dog get sick from eating raw. *

If it was such a risk - blockages, choking (had it happen once), shredded intestines, bacterial infections, blood lust, etc. - don't you think I would have encountered it at least a FEW times in the 10+ years and 10+ thousand pounds of food??


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

We've been feeding Mac rice & raw meat mixed with his Kibble for the last few weeks and he's tolerating it well, his coat is already softer and that puppy smell is gone. And, of course he loves it.

My husband ground up a beef liver, chicken liver, chicken gizzard & Chicken hearts and put 1.5 cup portions into plastic bags and froze them. Is it ok to serve this much at one time with his rice & kibble? I assume also that will be good for only one meal and he should get a meaty bone for the others per day. What do you think?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is waay too much organ meat if you feed over a spoonful. He may get runny poo from that. Meaty bones are not a meal. The only RMB that is almost complete as a meal is the chicken leg 1/4 as there may be some organ meat attached to the back(if the backs are included).
Check out the raw threads, for balanced portions. Rice is just a filler, I never give rice unless my dogs are sick.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I didn't mean the meaty bone would be the complete meal...only the meat portion of it. And by meaty bone, I meant a turkey leg etc.

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mac's Mom said:


> We've been feeding Mac rice & raw meat mixed with his Kibble for the last few weeks


Quick question - why the rice? White rice is devoid of most nutrients for4 HUMANS and it's a total waste of time for dogs since they don't need carbs.



> My husband ground up a beef liver, chicken liver, chicken gizzard & Chicken hearts


How much of each item was used in the mix?

You want to aim for 50% of their diet consisting of boneless meats, 5% of their diet consisting of organ meats and 45% of their diet consisting or raw meaty bones (where no more than 25% of that is actual bone).

If you are going to continue feeding the kibble you need to determine how much of each you will be feeding - like half kibble, half raw. Then you need to figure out how much (in WEIGHT (pounds/ounces)- not volume) you would feed the dog if you went 100% raw and then calculate the actual amounts you will be feeding (like say, cut in half for half raw).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mac's Mom said:


> I didn't mean the meaty bone would be the complete meal...only the meat portion of it. And by meaty bone, I meant a turkey leg etc.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it.


Turkey legs are rather hard RMBs to start with. Chicken legs would be a better choice - the bones are softer.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> That is waay too much organ meat if you feed over a spoonful. He may get runny poo from that.


I put some of my husband's organ meat mixture in Mac's kibble for dinner last night. Later I read your post and while I was telling my husband what you said...Mac got diarrhea.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Lauri, Thank you for all of the information. I've written down the percentages you've given me. 

I've read many different opinions on raw feeding and I'm truly confused. I was feeding Mac kibble only. Then we started giving him some organ meat along with his kibble. Eventually I started giving him less kibble and adding chicken breast. He started to get diarrhea. I read that I should give him rice. I also read that I should be giving him meat with bones instead. So we gave him a lot less kibble and starting giving him turkey legs. His diarrhea stopped completely....until last night when I gave him that organ meat mixture in his kibble. I should have realized it was the organ meat that gave him the diarrhea. 

So unless he's got diarrhea I should not feed him rice. What do you think of feeding raw groundbeef, eggs, carrots, celery leaves, etc. I've read all of that is good but I really don't trust what I've read.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mac's Mom said:


> Then we started giving him some organ meat along with his kibble. Eventually I started giving him less kibble and adding chicken breast. He started to get diarrhea.


Most likely it's because you weren't giving him any BONE in his raw diet.

Rice is a carb. It will sometimes help firm things up but it's not what dogs NEED and bones (which they DO need) do the same thing. 



> What do you think of feeding raw groundbeef, eggs, carrots, celery leaves, etc. I've read all of that is good but I really don't trust what I've read.


Ok, you have to decide if you are going to feed all raw or part raw, part kibble. Then you need to decide the percentage of each part.

Once you have that you need to plan a raw diet, just as if you were feeding 100% raw, and then cut it down to the percentage you decided on.

Dogs don't process vegetables unless you pre-process them first. The only green food (meaning veggie-type) that my dogs get is green tripe. The celery and carrots aren't going to do anything for your dog.

The eggs and ground beef are ok but you need a calcium source in there as well - bones.

Let's say I decided to switch Sasha to half raw, half kibble. First thing I would need to do is calculate her 100% raw amounts. She weighs 50 pounds so she would be getting the following if I was feeding her 100% raw:

9 oz RMBs
10 oz MM
1 oz OM

Since I'm going to be using kibble for half her daily intake I need to cut the raw amounts in half. I would then be feeding her:

4.6 oz RMBs
5 oz MM
.5 oz OM

I also need to figure out how much kibble she would need if I were feeding her 100% kibble. Let's say that was 3 cups (just a SWAG).

So, I could feed her the raw stuff in one meal and the kibble (1.5 cups - half the amount above) in another meal.

Or, you could mix them together. Some dogs don't do well with the raw mixed with kibble - others have no problems. You won't know until you try it.

The key is that you need to feed a *balanced *raw diet even if it's only half the dogs daily intake.

Hope this helps!


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Im glad to hear that any raw bone is ok. I read somewhere raw pork chop bones and pork steak bones. Splintr jus as if they were cooked.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Lauri, The first thing I did this morning is rip up all of my notes regarding raw that I gathered from friends, family and the internet. Second thing is cut & pasted your post into my new raw journal. In other words...thank you so much for the detailed information.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

You are very welcome!!

I am way behind in getting my website updated but I AM working on it!


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## dakota20 (Jul 9, 2010)

Blitz Burgh Steeler said:


> Personally i wouldn't give the guts of ANY fish to my dog.Not even out of clean Florida waters! I may be to protective of him but i see fish organs as good places to concentrate all the pollutants they are exposed too- ie:mercury, lead , fertilizer pollutants etc. My dog can get those nutrients from many safer forms . Just my personal opinion based on what i believe. And i believe are oceans,lakes and waterways are getting more polluted by the day + BP fish oil is not what i want and Blitz surely doesn't need. eace:


Sorry should've stated that the trout was fully dressed from the store...no guts.


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

I was always told its not good to mix raw and kibble. That they digest differently and the raw can sit in the stomach and not digest if you mix the 2 whcih can cause diarreah. Is that true?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Gsdldy said:


> I was always told its not good to mix raw and kibble. That they digest differently and the raw can sit in the stomach and not digest if you mix the 2 whcih can cause diarreah. Is that true?


I know many people that feed raw and kibble at the same meal and have no problems. I would say it's more an individual dog thing that an absolute Yes or No thing.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi All, I have a couple questions regarding Mac's diet that I could use some opinions on.

Mac is a highly energetic 75 lb 10 month old. Everyday he eats kibble, eggs, yogurt, raw meaty bones, muscle meat & a small amount of organ meat....plus treats during training sessions. According to the vet he's in perfect health at an ideal weight with good muscle tone. No surprise...Mac exercises between 6-8 hours a day (between play, training & running laps around the yard). I don't force that much exercise he demands it. 

Last week we took him to the vet to get fixed and the vet said I should reduce his food by 20% because he won't need as much after the surgery. My first question is...was that good advice from my vet? Its only been 5 days but we've noticed his energy level hasn't changed much. It just seems like he still has a lot of growing to do and don't feel comfortable reducing his food intake. What do you all think?

I'm planning to switch from raw/kibble to 100% raw. Second question is...for adults the calculation is dog weight x 2-3% based on energy level. For Mac thats only 1.5 to 2.25 lbs per day. He already eats a lot more raw + kibble than that. I feel comfortable with 5% but don't want to overfeed him. What do you think?

Sorry this is so long. I'm so paranoid about making a mistake with something as important as his health. Thanks in advance for input. Carrie


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> The only RMB that is almost complete as a meal is the chicken leg 1/4 as there may be some organ meat attached to the back(if the backs are included).


 Bone marrow is an organ, so chicken leg quarters always include organ material, whether or not the back is included.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

So a chicken leg quarter can be considered a full meal? Im doing raw right not but i am buying pre made raw by natures variety... I have to start doing it myself because My GSD's food bill is almost a car payment... yikes!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

depends on the size of the leg 1/4. I give them as a full meal but don't give them more than 5 or 6 times a week.
Usually it is a meal when I give no supplements and in a hurry!
Those premades are expensive unless you are a distributor!


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Right now Im spending 248 a month for Elvis... its insane. And my husband and is going to have a stroke if I dont lower that bill down.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Onyx can you give me an example of a raw meal you make for your dog?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A daily meal will consist of some ground(50%) raw meaty bone(45%)and organmeat(5%) I supplement with green tripe, yogurt, eggs, vitamin B complex(a few days a week) 
Vitamin E, C and salmon oil daily(all human grade) I feed 2 meals a day, total is 2# per dog, depending on activity level.
I am really lucky that I am involved in Sustainable Selections, getting past sale date meat from a recycling group.
So I get alot of variety. The only drawback is that it is from a big box store and from CAFO farms for the most part.
This is what I get:
All chicken parts, livers, gizzards, and whole chickens
turkey drums/wings, ground beef, pork neck bones, steak(all types), beef brisket(unseasoned), pork roasts, pork riblets, salmon, tilapia, catfish. Seasonally we get whole turkeys. There is also deli meats, seasoned meats, hotdogs and other enhanced meat that I decline. This goes to the Animal control in town or some in our group will feed it. 

I order green tripe, beef kidney, turkey necks from other sources, and feed venison throughout the year.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

what would be considered a RMB?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the pork neck bones, riblets, turkey drums/wings, turkey necks, chicken(all) and when I feed chicken I don't usually add much muscle meat unless it is the wings. I give oxtails from time to time, they are also a RMB.


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks! SO I could give some steak a chicken wing and a little bit of liver and that would be complete?


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