# Rough Play with our New Puppy



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Hey, everyone. Vesper is doing much better with her reactivity problems. We had a private trainer come into our home, and she gave us some really good advice involving calming signals and rewarding the proper types of behavior. 

Fast forward to now, and we have introduced a new puppy into our home. Her name is Rory and she is a miniature goldendoodle. Vesper tries to be gentle with her, but sometimes gets over-excited and tries to play way too rough. Has anyone else ever encountered this? Rory is way too small to engage in some of the play that Vesper tries to initiate, although she is always willing to play. 

For reference, Rory is about 4 months old (we adopted her on March 31st), and only 13 pounds. Vesper is two years old and weights around 70-75 pounds. They absolutely love being with each other, but the rough play worries me and frankly makes me upset. When Vesper gets in that mood, she is very hard to deter. 

We have been trying to take Vesper out of the situation when this happens, but she doesn't seem to be catching on at all. She just jumps right back into rough play after her "time out."

Annnd of course here are some photos of our girls.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how much do you like Rory?


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

carmspack said:


> how much do you like Rory?


We love her. Why do you ask?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think maybe because the challenge with raising a puppy around a dog who has reactivity problems often results in the new dog also developing the same problems. I saw that with two of mine. Toby passed his problems onto Cyra.

When Beau came along I had a female this way - Cyra- (and yes she accepted a puppy into the fold) and I kept interactions between them short and never let them play together because she did not have the "normal" set of canine interactions hardwired. Fortunately I had an adult male -Grim- who did and he, not she, was Beau's "mentor"

Maybe that is where Carmen was going.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

NancyJ said:


> I think maybe because the challenge with raising a puppy around a dog who has reactivity problems often results in the new dog also developing the same problems. I saw that with two of mine.
> 
> When Beau came along I had a female this way (and yes she accepted a puppy into the fold) and I kept interactions between them short and never let them play together because she did not have the "normal" set of canine interactions hardwired. Fortunately I had an adult male who did and he, not she, was Beau's "mentor"
> 
> Maybe that is where Carmen was going.


I see what you mean. However, we got a temperament tested goldendoodle for this very purpose. She is very resilient and does amazingly well with other people and dogs. At this age, Vesper was already showing reactivity. Rory isn't that way at all. I understand that Ves doesn't play appropriately in every situation though, which is why I am asking for help. She does very well until she gets really excited. Even then, she tries to be gentle but she is just much larger than Rory. I understand concerns that people would have with it, but our trainer has been helping us, and I trust her opinion. I just thought I would come to the forum for different perspectives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would just not let them play. The pup does not need to "play with other dogs" TRUST ME. Many people keep their pups perpetual puppies and the best thing you could do is find some solid adult dogs around which to socialize her. Dogs who will not play with her but tolerate her puppiness and show her proper interaction. I would also not do any puppy play dates with her. My dogs are working dogs but this approach has left me with the most stable adult dog ever. One who could care less about meet, greet and play with other dogs and one who even has the skillset to deflect snarky dogs. The other dogs are just "part of the background" to him. That is what my advice is


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

NancyJ said:


> I would just not let them play. The pup does not need to "play with other dogs" TRUST ME. Many people keep their pups perpetual puppies and the best thing you could do is find some solid adult dogs around which to socialize her. Dogs who will not play with her but tolerate her puppiness and show her proper interaction. I would also not do any puppy play dates with her. My dogs are working dogs but this approach has left me with the most stable adult dog ever. One who could care less about meet, greet and play with other dogs and one who even has the skillset to deflect snarky dogs. The other dogs are just "part of the background" to him. That is what my advice is


Yes, I agree! Thank you. She really only plays with Ves because they are around each other so much.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You have two females, which can cause problems once Rory gets more mature, especially since Vesper has her own issues. Be vigilant. I would not let them play rough. It can also cause Rory to get dog reactive if she is being pushed too much. I would have your trainer monitor their dynamics on a regular bases.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lexiz said:


> We love her. Why do you ask?


because the older dog has no training , and time out does not connect the dots or train her anything and the older dog is using the little fluff as an animated toy and because of the size and difference in dispositon --- ha ha ha , taking a breath here -- and your undisciplined reactive older dog gets really excited -- and is too rough -- and there is nothing sweeter to take a dog out of the controllable zone than the prey victim squeals . 

sorry I saw a bouvier and the persons resident toy poodle , a senior dog , engage in play that quickly changed into the poodle being mauled - the more it panicked the more the bouv zoned out - till the poodle was picked up and playfully flipped into the air - caught and then ripped ap

You've got to keep the little guy safe .


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

carmspack said:


> lexiz said:
> 
> 
> > We love her. Why do you ask?
> ...


You have no idea what you're talking about so I'm not even going to try to correct you. Thanks anyway though. Move along.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> You have two females, which can cause problems once Rory gets more mature, especially since Vesper has her own issues. Be vigilant. I would not let them play rough. It can also cause Rory to get dog reactive if she is being pushed too much. I would have your trainer monitor their dynamics on a regular bases.


Thank you. So far, our trainer has said that it's apparent that Vesper likes her and views her as a dog and not prey. However, because Vesper hasn't been able to spend time playing with other dogs (small dogs especially), she is still learning etiquette. However, Vesper has come leaps and bounds with her reactivity.  She is learning well!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Actually, Carmen has decades of experience and carries a good bit of respect in the working dog community. And I independently saw how, firsthand, having a reactive dog and puppy live and play together could impact the puppy. It completely changed how I decided to raise future puppies. 

......... you can only push "resilent" so far. The pup still learns a lot from the adult dogs it lives with about how to relate to the rest of the world.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

NancyJ said:


> Actually, Carmen has decades of experience and carries a good bit of respect in the working dog community. And I independently saw how, firsthand, having a reactive dog and puppy live and play together could impact the puppy. It completely changed how I decided to raise future puppies.
> 
> ......... you can only push "resilent" so far. The pup still learns a lot from the adult dogs it lives with about how to relate to the rest of the world.


For someone with decades of experience, I'm surprised that she made so many wrong assumptions about my situation. You both have no idea about the steps that we are taking because we know Ves is reactive. I asked about one simple issue, and you decided to instead lecture me about dog reactivity. Trust me, I know. That's why I have a trainer with a decade of experience. But thanks anyway. This forum is so horribly judgmental.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think when you have a reactive adult dog AND a puppy it is not a simple issue. That is the remainder of what I will say on the topic

I was not trying be judgmental but only trying to give helpful suggestions based on personal experience. More than a decade. Did your trainer also not warn you about having two females in the same house vs having one male and one female.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

You have to remember that carmspack has likely seen this exact scenario over a hundred times and, in her years of experience, has no reason to sugar coat a possible outcome between Vesper and your new pup. Sometimes when we see play, we have to remember that prey drive can also drive what we view as play. And if we're inexperienced in distinguishing the two, there can be some very, very upsetting outcomes. Especially when there is a significant size difference between the two dogs involved.

It's good that you're taking steps to try and work with Vesper. And it's important that you did request to have your new pup evaluated for the situation. But the bottom line is that until Vesper is perfectly managed in her reactivity, there's still a chance of a bad outcome. I think the best answer has already been given and I think you agree: there should be no play between the two dogs. They don't have to play together just because they live together.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Why do I get the feeling that the OP's "thank you" means something like,"mind your own business, I know best"?
This is another example of someone asking for advice, getting it and then telling all of us that he/she knows what they are doing.
Your puppy is being used as a prop to entert(r)ain your reactive dog. I don't understand why the breeder and trainer thought this was an OK idea and on top of that a same sex combination. Time will tell how it turns out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lexiz said:


> For someone with decades of experience, I'm surprised that she made so many wrong assumptions about my situation. You both have no idea about the steps that we are taking because we know Ves is reactive. I asked about one simple issue, and you decided to instead lecture me about dog reactivity. Trust me, I know. That's why I have a trainer with a decade of experience. But thanks anyway. This forum is so horribly judgmental.


more fodder for the close minded thread?

first of all the pup is not Vespers dog . right there the dynamics are wrong.
pup is as cute as all get out - get the relationship right
the pet does not need a pet 

there are too many people out there acting as personal trainers or behaviorists that have little to no experience or credentials . 
correcting reactivity goes far beyond " and she gave us some really good advice involving calming signals and rewarding the proper types of behavior. "

what good is a calming signal going to do when the dog is beyond focus engaged in too rough play?

"sometimes gets over-excited and tries to play way too rough. "

yes and this can become so rewarding -- see the behavior become the norm 
" Rory is way too small to engage in some of the play that Vesper tries to initiate,"

yes . "but the rough play worries me and frankly makes me upset"

so what is it that I don't understand?
what were you asking ? was it "Has anyone else ever encountered this"

yes - many people on the forum also .
yes -- the friendliest most docile dog in "gentle" play took the young small breed dogs head in his mouth and accidently put a puncture in through just above the eye socket - pup blind in that eye and has neuro-damage 
when you have this size discrepancy the larger dog flopping down and landing on the pup can break ribs - bones --

"When Vesper gets in that mood, she is very hard to deter. " Read this again.
now refer to "what good is a calming signal going to do when the dog is beyond focus engaged in too rough play?"

you can't deter her -- the rough play escalates - victim of prey play is so stimulating brings out all sorts of instincts -- why do you think decoys will bring out the prey drive , and give in to the dog increasing its drive and confidence -- or squeal sounds - 

this is not going to do much if anything " out of the situation when this happens, but she doesn't seem to be catching on at all."

and "She just jumps right back into rough play after her "time out."

of course she does -- comes back with a second wind - and the energy that frustration develops 

classic training techniques -- but goes against your goals.

so what do I not understand


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think I will create a new word/phrase.

fank you -- a fusion - a dismissal. think about it . why fank you -- no , fank YOU

my experience isn't personal because I wouldn't allow it .

I did have a holy terror of an instigative american rat terrier -
fabulous little personal pet-dog -- to the hilt with natural instincts - got
her first barn rat when she was less than 6 months of age and that rat fought the noble fight-
but she would harass the dogs when she had free-run , and they would just give her the snake eye 
remembering , storing it for revenge . (insert snidely whiplash laugh here)

She made herself a target . I knew that the situation sooner or later that this would come to grief so I re-homed her to some friends that owned a health food store - moved to BC to enjoy the counter culture group there (yay BC -British Columbia not BC / AD) -- and then back to Ontario so that the owners could be close to family - where she lived out her days to 17 years of age. Kippy . 

When I have young dogs I keep them with their immediate family - littermates and dam .

Even if I have a litter slightly older say --- or having kept back a youngster from the preceding litter - give it a 3 month difference -- I don't have the litters merge -- at that age two or three weeks gives such an advantage , physically and developmentally. Easy for me - sure thing. Good for the dogs - negative .

Young dogs that I have are given a name to have them click as individuals . it isn't important if the new owner keeps the name or not . I don't puppy puppy call them - even moving as a group it;'s lets go -- giving them a "command" of what I want them to do . Lasts a lifetime ! lets go,

I can call out the Ralph or the Sue or the Nitro or whatever individual name and only that dog will look up and respond. 

when they are adults I pair compatible male and female for free run - along the creek or into the woods . They don't play with each other as much as BE with each other - mature - and not the perpetual pup . They are two individuals.
I can call one back and the other will continue to sniff out the rabbit poop trails.

you would have been better off if the Vesper dog had matured and sobered up a bit and had a bit of training so that the dog is reliably responsive and responsible to you.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Walk along the creek. Exactly how my two do it. They may sometimes grab and carry a stick together but they are not rolling around on the ground with each other. Lovely to watch. Take turns chasing each other for awhile. You add a third and can see hunting behaviors start going into play .. saw that with a friend (one dog was chasing the other was herding and while nobody got bit it was a bit too real.......so we only went out two at a time after that even though the dogs got along)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and that is what we were doing to meet up with the ram that had come onto property and would not be chased to the fence 
Sumo ploughed into that sheep and they were one sheepn'dog skid . He had never had exposure to one physically , only visual sheep at 50 foot distance when we walked by the farm (adjoining property at back of property line).
Mine don't chase each other -- they try to out race each other to some point of interest . A little bit of competition . No one wants to miss a trick.

Always mixed couples - never same sex . 

not a young dog with an adult -- I don't even want the dam taking out any maturing youngsters that I have held back going out together .

when the youngster is mature and has good bond and is not "influenced" by the dam - that is okay - they are each well formed individuals


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lexiz said:


> Thank you. So far, our trainer has said that it's apparent that Vesper likes her and views her as a dog and not prey. *However, because Vesper hasn't been able to spend time playing with other dogs (small dogs especially), she is still learning etiquette.* However, Vesper has come leaps and bounds with her reactivity.  She is learning well!



The bolded part is where you will run into trouble. I have a GSD that is not reactive to anything. I also have small dogs. Enya is never allowed to play with them. I don't think she would ever intentionally hurt one, but rough play is dangerous. One play bow landing wrong can break a smaller dog's back. And Carmen is exactly correct. Your smaller dog squeals and the play can change in a heartbeat to no longer play. Another reason Enya does not play with my small dogs. Personally, I'm not willing to take the chance.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That multidog offlead walk gave me insight into the dog park thing and how one dog can become the object of a hunt and people think they are just playing.....

I have seen people go fine with larger groups of offlead dogs going through the woods though but I am sure they know the dogs and are very keyed into their behaviors. Not just a strange group of dogs.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

It's been a long weekend, so perhaps I'm just slow today. But I am always somewhat confused when people post questions to this forum and then argue (sometimes rudely) with the answers that they get, particularly when the answers are remarkably convergent. Why ask the question if you don't want an answer? There're far easier ways to receive affirmation if that's the goal. 

OP, you have a female who not only is reactive, but, per your own description, is not consistently obedient --- particularly when she zones out. (Think that was the phrase that you used). While she may have improved (and congrats on your accomplishments thus far, I have a reactive female too and well know how hard one has to work to achieve any kind of improvement), your girl is still not consistently reliable. Into this situation you bring a female puppy who, for all intents and purposes, looks (and probably acts) like an animated stuffie. Not the best arrangement one might envision....

Were these my dogs, I'd not only disallow _any _playing, I wouldn't allow them to be alone unsupervised either. The situation is too skewed (that size disparity) and the potential consequences to your puppy are just too dire. 

A final thought: What we, as humans, perceive as "play" among/between dogs is often something very different --- to the dogs, I mean. Sometimes it's limit-testing, sometimes it's a dominance display and sometimes it's play. The problem is twofold: Not only do we, as humans, frequently mislabel behaviors (mainly cause we're not dogs), but canine behavior can be very fluid and things can shift in a nanosecond. What may have started as play can morph into a fight/aggression in the blink of an eye. Because of that, I'd not be too quick to label the behavior as play in a (still) reactive dog. Even if it *is* play, rough or otherwise, the puppy can be seriously injured simply. 

Aly


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## Kungfupanda (Mar 24, 2016)

When I got our puppy, and he was our first dog, first pup, first GSD for my husband and I, we just committed to heart "if he's doing something we don't like, we haven't done enough to address it yet."

I think for newbie trainers we have done pretty good to have a nice socialized dog but we don't do him any favours being defensive. He grew up on a suburban street, with his sweet puppy dog face and everyone and their uncle wanted their dog to play with him and I can't remember who said this but common community dogs behave like pups! It taught Logan that is how you play. Now he's 80 lbs, I'm 110 and I hate it. It is my doing though because I thought it was okay. Now we are correcting it. He isn't allowed to 'play' with neighbours dogs, and is only allowed to be around calmer older dogs who behave like adults and guess what it's working. But we had to quickly get used to changing our socially accepted north american norm that 'that's how dogs play.'

I know on the internet when the more experienced trainers write things it's to the point but to be honest our trainer we go to is the same. We're just paying him for his bluntness so it's less offensive. I do agree with the feedback you've gotten though - my dog is disobedient around other dogs. It hurts to say outloud but he does well with obedience training on the training field but in real life, he's disobedient. I could call him a goofball but then I wouldn't work harder to train those habits away. 

It is such a wonderful versatile breed and we're all here to do the best by them we can :smile2:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Adding my two cents here...

I've owned German shepherds since the 1980's, and as soon as I read your post, I thought, "This woman doesn't realize she's made a big mistake, bringing such a small dog into the house with a dog-reactive GSD! This could cause BIG trouble!"

I once shared a house with my 2 German shepherds, and my tenant's chiweenie (chi/mini daschund mix). My younger GSD would play with the little dog, but ONLY under very careful supervision. The rest of the time, the dogs were kept separate. And my 2 shepherds have never had issues with other dogs. This was just common sense, to protect the little dog.


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## lbgrafs (Jun 8, 2017)

I'm going to attach onto this thread because there seems to be some experienced people on here. I have questions. My apologies if that's rude I'm brand new! Meet Hemi and Piper, my two gorgeous girls. hemi (bicolor with minimal tan) is a year and a half, Piper (sable) is just about 3 months. Hemi is medium sized, weighing under 50 lbs, she's really submissive with other dogs, higher energy, very well trained and socialized. Piper is submissive, responds well to correction, very compliant and dog savvy puppy. Easy to train as well. Pipers parents are 70 (dam) and 100 (sire) but she is just over 20 lbs at 3 months which I understand is small? (I'm hoping for a smaller dog anyway) They play well, any inappropriate behaviour from either of them and I correct with shhh noise (all it takes) and they both move away from each other and go do other things for awhile. I've done quite a bit of research on dog behaviour/body language, use some Caesar Milan stuff (some love him some hate him, I'm not interested in persecuting the guy or listening to someone else do it) and think of myself as a fairly good leader for my dogs, and my dogs listen really well. The dogs play great together, are never together unsupervised, have their time apart, etc. They're doing GREAT. My questions are as follows: two submissive females with a good leader doing the right things; Can it be done or are they going to start ripping each other's faces off? Also how big do you think piper will be? How dark of a sable? Will include a birth picture of Piper. She was the runt. should I worry about Piper getting bigger than Hemi and thinking she's the bigger tougher dog when she grows up? Also, if you guys would love to rate my pup or tell me what you think of her conformationally that would be great I've been wondering! Piper is purebred but not registered, dam Black and Tan and dad darker sable, and Hemi is GSD/heeler dad bicolor and 70 lbs and mom dark blue heeler. 
Thanks all, and nice to meet you!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

WOW! You'd swear they were both purebred GSD's!

Yes, I think 2 females can get along in the same household, if the owner is a good leader. In my (limited!) experience, intact females are more likely to have issues, because they want to protect their puppies.

I have 2 females, 10 years old, and soon to be 3 yrs. They have NO issues with each other at all. 

I think having an age difference also helps. Younger dogs usually submit to older ones.

As for Cesar, I think he gets far more things right than wrong (rules, boundaries, and limitations, and a tired dog is a good dog...can't argue with any of that!)


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*rough play with our New Puppy*

Please keep "Reactive Dogs" away from all other dogs.

Without sounding rude, because that is not my intention, the first thing to address is the "reactivity problems" issue.

Reactive Dogs, reactivity problems etc. is just a politically correct way of saying your dog is an untrained disobedient opportunistic Bully.

Almost always, this is a result of human error. In most cases a puppy that has been bullied will turn into a bully, same as with people.

Once your dog becomes a bully (reactive) it can be controlled if you are very diligent, but it will always be there, it never goes away.

Puppies learn social skills (what's acceptable and what is not) by being around Trusted Adult Dogs within days of their birth.

Very few breeders go to these lengths because it is a tremendous amount of work. 

Which is why researching your breeder is so important.


If you find yourself owning a "Reactive Dog";

-Avoid doggy parks because they are full of people who have no concept of how dogs think or act when they are among their own kind. 
If dogs had their way they would hang out with other dogs….not people.

- If you feel you need to allow your reactive dog around other dogs, keep it on a leash at all times

- Never leave it alone with any dog, big or small unless you can afford vet bills.



You can still enjoy your life with a "Reactive Dog" , you just have to be more diligent than the average dog owner.


These are some videos of how our pups are raised in a safe environment teaching social and environmental skills.


Desi (Dam) and her son ACE (full brother to the pups)







Arwen (5 month old) Sealyham playing with 5 week old pups







Billy, our 14 year old outdoor cat who has raised many Canczech and Euphoricfx Warriors.







Again, please do not let reactive, disobedient, unrully or whatever name you choose dogs around other dogs.


And if you happen upon me or my wife when we are out with one of our well trained, obedient Personal Protections Dogs. 

Please don't be offended when I Tell You - No you cannot pet my dog, and No I don't want your dog meeting mine.


Kim


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Pirates Lair said:


> And if you happen upon me or my wife when we are out with one of our well trained, obedient Personal Protections Dogs.
> 
> Please don't be offended when I Tell You - No you cannot pet my dog, and No I don't want your dog meeting mine.
> 
> ...


Just curious.........why the " No you cannot pet my dog" rule???


SuperG


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