# The ABC's of GSD breeding



## Jo Ellen

Ay yi yi :crazy: DDR, East German, American, European, working & show, longhaired, white, herding....this is complicated. I come from the golden retriever world where there is conformation and field LOL

I'm looking for a companion GSD that is low-key and not highly reactive (including not aggressive), calm, confident, intelligent, and easy to handle. What type should I be looking at? 

Can someone recommend a top notch breeder in the Pennsylvania area?


----------



## wolfstraum

what part of PA??? I am in SW PA.....

I am definitely PRO European lines....show or work for companion - because of stability of nerves and solid social temperament. Choosing carefully, you can get a great companion out of either Euro subtype.

Lee


----------



## SunCzarina

I'm pro DDR - in particular Grafental lines. Otto is strong, stable, easy going, loves people, very adaptable, athletic, just awesome GSD with none of the edgy bad stuff my west german workingline bitch has.

I'd have to ask where abouts but my friend has a Grafental grandchild who comes from somewhere in NY, they're around the northeast. 

Sven Grafental is the one name I see commonly in pedigrees of wonderful DDRs


----------



## Emoore

SunCzarina said:


> I'm pro DDR - in particular Grafental lines. Otto is strong, stable, easy going, loves people, very adaptable, athletic, just awesome GSD with none of the edgy bad stuff my west german workingline bitch has.
> 
> I'd have to ask where abouts but my friend has a Grafental grandchild who comes from somewhere in NY, they're around the northeast.
> 
> Sven Grafental is the one name I see commonly in pedigrees of wonderful DDRs


Me too, but then I'm a little biased.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Can someone give me the basics about the types? How does DDR differ from European or how does American differ from European? What are the Euro subtypes? 

I'm in central PA, but I can travel


----------



## Jo Ellen

> strong, stable, easy going, loves people, very adaptable, athletic, just awesome GSD with none of the edgy bad stuff


This is exactly what I'm looking for  Stability of nerves is very important to me, probably the most important quality I am searching for. I don't want to be afraid of my GSD or of what he/she might do.


----------



## wolfstraum

Euro show - black and brown (run the gamut from tan to red) - bigger, more placid on a day to day level - 

Euro working lines - all colors, predominant color is sable - light to dark....DDR dogs bred for color in many kennels for pet market....many of the straight West german working types can be more nervy DEPENDING on the pedigree and line breeding IMO....*well bred dog* - balanced stable, happy, yes - mouthy!, has drive to make training easy, genetically solid so socialization is just for fun not needed to condition dog to accept society! Can be all West German, Czech, Dutch, Belgian or combined...mine are combos of all plus some DDR....

DDR - good looking darker pigmented dogs generally, not as biddable overall, must be careful with lines as some real aggression ( ever hear of Boban Grauen Monstadt??? Sven Grafental son!!! major major notorious aggression) - not as common in sport world....

Not goign to touch the ASLs here.....

Lee


----------



## Castlemaid

Here you go:
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

A good detailed article about the three main types of dogs. As an active companion, any of the types will fit your need. The working line subtype differences are more subtle and may not make a big difference in what you are looking for.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Is it bad to have a working line but not be too much into "working?" I'm assuming working means something along the lines of tracking, herding, protection, etc. I just want a GSD that I can live happily with me doing fun outdoor activities (going to the lake, hiking along the river trails, fishing (?? LOL), playing ball outdoors ... just ordinary, low-key, unspecialized kinds of things.

Thanks Castlemaid for that link, I'm reading it now. Very helpful. I think anytime we get into the purebreeds, we have to stop and ask ourselves if we're selling the breed short by expecting them to adapt to our lifestyles when they way we live might not be the way they want or need to live.


----------



## wolfstraum

A friend in York PA has a litter coming - working lines.....both parents good in house and with kids (dam with kids)....got a pup for a friend of a friend from the last litter of same cross....would probably suit you well...

Lee


----------



## Lucy Dog

Keep in mind this board in general is very pro-working line... nothing wrong with that at all. The working line dogs are just as beautiful and just as good (maybe better in a lot of aspects) as the show lines (german or american) in my opinion, but you're probably going to get A LOT more recommendations for working line GSD's around here. It's just how it is.

There are plenty of good breeders (working and show) who produce dogs that are exactly what you're looking for. The trick is to find a good one that matches the right breeding and puppy up with what you're looking for. Not every breeder has this skill... the good ones do though! 

Good luck in your search... don't be afraid to ask plenty of questions.


----------



## SunCzarina

My working line dogs don't 'work' as you've defined 'something along the lines of tracking, herding, protection, etc'. Most of what I see people working their shepherds in these areas are doing it as sport/completion. K9 officers/SAR people excluded.

Are my dogs trained to protect me, my property and my children, you bet. I used to do SchH years ago but other than an OB class here or there, I've trained both my current dogs alone. 

They can also track a pig roast and find dollar bills in shrubbery, but they've taught themselves these things. 

Couple weeks ago some fool broke into my garage. The dogs told me there was something going on in the yard, insisted they go deal with it. Fool dropped his phone trying to get away from them.

Both are perfectly content living the life of an active family dog. My children practice their throwing for baseball with Otto - 3 y/o DDR male. 

Morgan, my 10 y/o female herds a mean cat... really it's a mean little cat who likes to sneak out in the yard. There is no escape from Morgan. She also herded the children quite well when they were younger, never let them sneak in the bathroom or do anything else that wasn't safe.

They have their outlets for all their energy. I never get to skip a workout because they won't leave me alone unless I walk them daily. We take them to the playground where they can run around chasing the kids on the equipment for an hour, that wears them out good!

We hike as a family, they love that. Lots of walks in the park, they're very much a part of the family. Yesterday the boy went to do errands, the bank, got a new trash can at Benny's, bought some stamps and went to the farmers market - he didn't sit in the car either becuase he's learned how to do all these things and behave nicely.

It's doable. They're a very adaptable breed.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Wolfstraum, I'm not ready yet, but thank you. I still have a lot of learning to do before I'm certain a GSD is the right dog for me, and I'm the right person for a GSD  I very firmly believe that bringing a dog into the home is a commitment for the life of the dog ... it would be devastating for me to make a poor decision. And I already have a dog. I'm considering a GSD for my _next_ dog. I'm a one-dog kind of girl, really, pack of two is where I'm comfortable.

But I'm learning so much here with the links members have provided. It's really hard to just go out on the net and find good information, hard to sort through the crap and the good stuff. 

I'm reading Elements of Temperament ... I love this, this is what attracts me so strongly to the GSD...



> Jet gave us another impromptu seminar on GSD suspicion of strangers shortly thereafter. My then boyfriend was out of town when I got Jet and he was eager to come over and meet her. She woofed at the gate, but allowed me to let him in without a complaint. She then placed her self on an extended "watch him". When he was in the kitchen, she laid down and kept her eyes on him. He went outside to install some new lights, she went along, laid down and watched every move he made. Eventually, she decided he was ok and relaxed. They became good buddies. Again, she showed no untoward aggression and certainly no avoidance. She didn't instantly pounce on him to make friends. She conducted herself like a GSD.


I'm getting the impression that working lines are more in keeping with correct temperament, because they are bred with temperament in mind. ASL's, for example, are bred for looks, temperament is dispensible? That would be unfortunate if I'm understanding correctly. So right now I am favoring the working lines. 

Need to get clear on all these issues and comfortable with my opinions before I bring home my first GSD.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Is it true that good temperament is more reliable with working lines? I don't doubt that one could find a GSD with good temperament in the show lines, but not as predictably perhaps? 

Why does this forum favor working lines? 

And I am definitely not going to go out in search of my first GSD before I am very comfortable with what I believe is a "good" breeder. Need to be 100% clear on that first.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm getting the impression that working lines are more in keeping with correct temperament, because they are bred with temperament in mind. ASL's, for example, are bred for looks, temperament is dispensible? That would be unfortunate if I'm understanding correctly. So right now I am favoring the working lines.
> 
> Need to get clear on all these issues and comfortable with my opinions before I bring home my first GSD.


The good (good, in my opinion) show line breeders breed for temperament just as much as looks. They are out there.


----------



## SunCzarina

It's great you're asking all these questions so you know what to ask a breeder when you start talking to them. Nothing wrong with stating to talk now, a decent breeder won't mind talking to you for 2 or 3 years until the right dog for you comes along.

Working lines are tested better than show lines. Learning the difference between a SchH title and a CHX title is the key to why. 

Temperment, I dunno, I've seen WL dogs that were more high strung/unpredicable and plenty of easy going show lines that would be unflappable in any situation. It depends on the individual dog.

The forum favors working lines because there's a disproportional number of workingline dog people here. Not that there aren't showline people here who are just as fanatical. Why is anyone's guess. 

Perhaps WL are more intense so we need more input on raising them and that's how we all ended up here in the first place. That's how I ended up here 11 years ago. I'd had 3 shepherds before then I rescued a 2 year old DDR boy who had spent 5 months in a shelter. I needed HELP!


----------



## trudy

Jo Ellen, since most members trash talk Am show lines and denigrate their temperment and tell everyone about the worst of the worst, let me share, as an owner of 2 Am show lines. There are good and bad in ALL lines and breeds. My shwo line dogs are very stable, they have passed temperment tests, they have passed herding tests, they can and do go everywhere with me. They don't spook nor attack anyone or react anywhere. 

My suggestion, go to many places and meet many dogs, find a breeder you are comfortable with who xrays all breeding stock, who trains and can take out any dog and let you or anyone else touch any dog. If tehy say they can only let you see one or two, unless that is all they own, then run. GS are supposed to be approachable, not attacking nor shying away. All lines can have this, so find what you like for looks, what looks right to you, and find the temperment that matches what you can live with, and go for it. 

I personally don';t like when some people share the worst of a line and say they are all like that. Mine might not be someone else's choice but I stand behind them, and they would be there for me if needed.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I won't trash talk the AM Lines, I think there are good dogs to be found in ANY line. 

I agree with Trudy's suggestion, many places, meet many dogs, meet breeders of differing lines and go from there. 

Even tho it's early for you, it's never to early to go meet the dogs, and call breeders and ask to meet THEM and their dogs! Most breeders LOVE to talk dogs, show off their dogs..glad your doing your homework early.


----------



## LARHAGE

I am pro German Show lines, I like having it all..... beauty and brains with great temperament.


----------



## doggiedad

your training and socializing, your
training and socializing will determine
who and how your dog developes.


----------



## gagsd

Who posted the car/line analogy a year or so back? Lee was that you?

I thought it was good and mostly true. (I remember I had to add that DDR types were the old muscle cars).


----------



## Castlemaid

When people say this forum is pro-working lines, I think what is going on is that some of the more knowledgeable, experienced people on the board have extensive experience in owning, training, working, breeding working lines. So their sphere of reference is working lines, and their history and experience that they share to newbies like yourself are about the working lines that they are so familiar with. 

Most of the people with American show lines and German show lines are mainly active pet owners - absolutely nothing wrong with that, GSDs SHOULD make great pets, and they do. A lot of the working lines on this forum are also in pet homes, enjoying activities like hiking, obedience, rally, agility, fly-ball, herding, and so on. In any litter of working lines, there will be some more driven pups more suited to working homes, and some more laid-back pups, with medium drives, more suited to a pet home. What you may not find is complete couch potatoes that will be happy with one half-hour walk a day - but then that is not what you are looking for anyways.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Castlemaid said:


> What you may not find is complete couch potatoes that will be happy with one half-hour walk a day - but then that is not what you are looking for anyways.


Well maybe when it's 30 below?


----------



## Castlemaid

Jo Ellen said:


> Well maybe when it's 30 below?


LoL, no excuse! It gets to 40 below here! (well, okay, we only do quick potty breaks then!)

At 30 below I take my GSD outside and we play fetch for a good half hour in the driveway or down the road (I live on a VERY quiet road in the boonies). As long as we are both running around we are fine. Get Cuz toys. They are amazing. They stay pliable and bouncy, even when covered with frozen dog drool in 30 below weather. 

Then when it 'warms' up to 20 below, we celebrate by going for a long walk.  But that is normal winter temps here. We can't just shut ourselves away for the entire winter and wait for spring.


----------



## wolfstraum

gagsd said:


> Who posted the car/line analogy a year or so back? Lee was that you?
> 
> I thought it was good and mostly true. (I remember I had to add that DDR types were the old muscle cars).


LOL I do use it alot! and horses as well...

Euro show lines are Cadillacs - showy and big....

Euro working lines are Porsches - fast and easy to handle....

You can go to the grocery store in either - but take Grandma to church in the Caddy and go zipping up mountain roads in the Porshe....

Lee


----------



## onyx'girl

JoEllen, I give you kudos for not rushing into your choice and I agree with getting out to events, training groups to see the actual difference in the lines. Then you can maybe see the differences in the lines of the lines, if you can get to enough venues. 
I started out with a BYB type mix of Am pet/WL and then adopted another SL/WL blend. Both aren't temperamentally good for the training I wanted, so opted for a good working line breeder. 

Then I had to look at the lines there...DDR/WG /Czech? I decided for me what would blend best was a WG/Czech breeding from a great breeder so I looked for a breeder I could trust. 

The sire was awesome in his acomplishments(real world working dog) and after he retired from his job his new handler put other titles on him to show his total abilities. The Dam complimented the sire's pedigree. 
I think that is what you need to look for, a pedigree is fine, but the dogs accomplishments all around may have you lean toward whatever...lines are lines and what the achievements are may be a great way to decide on which you want to go with. 
If I was into conformation, I may not have chosen what I did, but I think in the end, IF I wanted to put my dog up against a SL in the ring, he may be a breath of fresh air for the judges and show that WL's could do well in the ring.(NOT saying my particular dog would go far, but the diversity in the breed should be given a chance to excel in all venues)
One other thing to consider besides temperament and conformation of course is health and that involves allergies, stomach sensitivity and longevity in the line(bloat, cancer, etc) in the history of the line....if you can get info on that then you have done amazing research!!


----------



## Emoore

Jo Ellen said:


> Well maybe when it's 30 below?


Sigh. Not even when it's been 110 for over 40 days.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Emoore said:


> Sigh. Not even when it's been 110 for over 40 days.


I was going to say you must be from Texas, and then I see that you are. It's all relative, isn't it. I can imagine 30 below would sound wonderful compared to 40 days of 110. I can't imagine. We had one week here of 100. I was on vacation at the time ... just gathered my dog up and spent our time at the lake. Summers are my favorite, I do protest much in the winter. I wish for you cooler days ahead, Emoore.

My golden retriever is from a BYB. She has mild hip dysplasia in one hip and weak knees (2 ACL surgeries). I didn't bring up health, not because I don't think it's important, but because it's a given with me now. I will definitely do my due diligence with clearances and background. Thanks, onyx'girl, it's important stuff, I know 

So much information, my head is spinning. Think I might benefit from German Shepherds for Dummies?


----------



## Emoore

Jo Ellen said:


> I was going to say you must be from Texas, and then I see that you are. It's all relative, isn't it. I can imagine 30 below would sound wonderful compared to 40 days of 110.


Negative.  Give me heat over cold any day. I hates the cold; that's why I live in Texas!





Jo Ellen said:


> So much information, my head is spinning. Think I might benefit from German Shepherds for Dummies?


Nah, most of those books are written by AKC flunkies. Stick around here. The level of knowledge on this forum is mind-blowing. 


Back to the show/working line thing, I gotta tell you I've never met a German Show Line I didn't like. I've fostered two and they were both nice, middle-of-the-road dogs with great temperaments. I've had the pleasure of meeting others as well and liked them. I like the working lines a little better, but really it all comes down to personal preference. I'm in love with the way they keep me on my toes. I haven't met any American Show Lines in person so I can't give an intelligent judgement about them.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

I have to say, that the Czech lines are my favorite.. yes, I know not a lot of pure Czech lines out there anymore, but my 1/2 Czech female is everything I could want and hope for at her young age.

I have met a lot of GSD's and I keep going back to the the dogs who have a high content of Czech mixed in them.

I also have a working/showline mix and he is just as Emoore described, a great dog who is middle of the road in terms of drive. As he matures he is becoming a great dog! Now that I have a dog who enjoys working and doing the things that I participate in (schH, agility) he can relax more and I must say, he is the best companion I have ever had.

I must say, kudos to you for doing all your research before hand!


----------



## tintallie

wolfstraum said:


> DDR - good looking darker pigmented dogs generally, not as biddable overall, must be careful with lines as some real aggression ( ever hear of Boban Grauen Monstadt??? Sven Grafental son!!! major major notorious aggression) - not as common in sport world....
> 
> Lee


I believe you are referring to the Sven vom Gräfental son, Boban von den Grauen von Monstab. Boban is either in Alberta or Saskatchewan now and whoever is breeding him has been placing ads on kijiji for Boban puppies. 

Boban's former owner has a small snippet on this page: Vom Domburger Land and there are comments from a man in my city who seems to have purchased a Boban puppy (6 months old now) who keeps biting his wife. 

He also seems to belong to one of the two Schutzhund clubs in the city. Not sure if this just teething or rank drive showing early. However, I looked up the pedigree that was posted: Stryker vom Haus Stirling - German Shepherd Dog

That Boban puppy looks possessed!


----------



## cliffson1

Boban has a reputation similar to Crok v Erlenbush in West working lines. Both produced a inordinate amount of progeny with extreme aggression and sometimes extreme handler aggression. Both are from popular sires,(MInk-Crok, Sven- Boban), that were bred to many many other dogs/lines and this phenomena did not occur.


----------



## bocron

At our house, we are firmly in the working line camp. Having said that, we got a High Line for our daughter for her first dog to train for Schutzhund. It has worked out beautifully. He is a great companion for her, does very nice Schutzhund work but is a bit less intense overall. I do recommend to many friends that they look at both WL and SL(sorry I NEVER recommend ASL, haven't ever met one around here I'd think would be a good fit). 
There are a number of very good High Line breeders whose dogs I wouldn't hesitate to recommend for the first time GSD owner. I personally tend to recommend the breeders who also enjoy doing the training and/or trialing of their breeding stock. I feel these kinds of breeders have a great feel for what their breedings are producing. I don't think they have to compete at the top level all the time, just understand how their stock takes to training and such. For example the breeder I got my latest dog from is very involved in the SchH club, she loves to do foundation training, but hates to be in a trial. She has a few trainers she will then place her dogs with to get titles, but she has done the groundwork. 
Good luck in your search, one of the members in our old SchH club was a looooong time Golden Retriever breeder and competitor. So we always had a GR or 2 at SchH practice, quite a mix .

Annette


----------



## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> Boban has a reputation similar to Crok v Erlenbush in West working lines. Both produced a inordinate amount of progeny with extreme aggression and sometimes extreme handler aggression. Both are from popular sires,(MInk-Crok, Sven- Boban), that were bred to many many other dogs/lines and this phenomena did not occur.


Although I know that Crok PRODUCED extreme inappropriate hander and overall aggression, as did Yoshey (not as "badly" or perhaps as randomly or inappropriately) - Was Crok himself inappropriately handler aggressive as I know Boban was/is??? I don't know of many Boban progeny - the ones I have heard about were not well tempered, and I seem to remember Jacques getting some bad hips in the ones he retained...

Lee


----------



## Jo Ellen

I'm confused about types and lines. What is the difference between these, is there more than one type? I'm familiar with lines, just not clear on types.

Thanks


----------



## Castlemaid

There are three main lines: American Show line, West German Showline, and working line. 

Within the working lines, there are some sub-groups: Czech, DDR, Belgian, West German to name a few. There are some subtle differences in body type, drive levels and other temperament traits, but in the end, they are all workingline dogs. Some are more suited for Schutzhund, (west german), some are more suited for police work (Czech), but that does not mean that a West German dog wouldn't be a good police dog, or that a Czech dog wouldn't do well in Schutzhund - it would depend on the individual dog. 

Can you give more info about what you would like to know?


----------



## Jo Ellen

I want to know everything, or enough to make a best decision when I become a first-time GSD owner 

So a DDR or Czech would be types within the working line? There are no types in the show lines? Or am I still not getting it. I'm assuming type refers to both the look and the general behavior characteristics? 

Is there any other breed that is this complicated?


----------



## Jo Ellen

I love the look of the show lines, especially the American show lines. But I'm hesitant to go that route because I have a feeling that temperament is not as reliable. I don't want to gamble, I want to stack my odds of getting that wonderful first GSD. 

Am I wrong?


----------



## Castlemaid

Jo Ellen said:


> I want to know everything, or enough to make a best decision when I become a first-time GSD owner


Take your time! Took me for ever (like a couple of years or so of being on this forum) to be able to look at a picture or to look at a pedigree and be able to tell what line the dogs were from - LOL. 


> So a DDR or Czech would be types within the working line?


Yes. 


> There are no types in the show lines?


No. Show lines dogs are bred for show. So the dogs all need to look the same, have the same colour and conformation to win. So breeding a sub-type would be counterproductive to the breeder's goals. In working lines, dogs are bred for working traits first and foremost. Not that conformation is not important, it is for a well put together healthy dog, but secondary. The sub-types in working lines also came about because for many years European countries were segregated, communist governments pretty much closing the borders of their country not allowing much movement of people nor ideas in or out. So individual countries were developing their own version of working lines for police work and border patrol work independent from outside influences and thus creating distinct types - but not on purpose, it was due to the political/geo-physical constraints put on them.


> Or am I still not getting it. I'm assuming type refers to both the look and the general behavior characteristics?


 Yes you are getting it! 


> Is there any other breed that is this complicated?


LOL, I hope not. Maybe this is a test for future German Shepherd owners to see if they are smarter than the dog they plan on getting. :wild:


----------



## bocron

There are people on this forum who have ASL and are very dedicated and work hard to produce and/or train GSDs to be proud of. 
Overall, though most who are looking to get into some sort of training for sport or competition go toward the German Show Lines or Working Lines. 
It may behoove you to contact a couple of local Schutzhund clubs and go for a visit. Most clubs will have mostly working line dogs in their membership but usually will also have a few German Show line dogs as well so you can get an idea of the difference in owning or training these 2 lines. If you want to interact with ASL dogs you will most likely need to go to some AKC or maybe even UKC shows in your area.


----------



## cliffson1

Boban did produce some dogs that were not overly aggressive. I have a good friend in Wash state that has a nice son of Boban...I also am aware of others......I would not breed to Boban, but I wouldn't breed to Crok either...just a matter of preference. The Sven/ Sindy combination was not a good mating for hip production, but it always goes to the specific combinations and balancing out the negatives.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> Boban did produce some dogs that were not overly aggressive. I have a good friend in Wash state that has a nice son of Boban...I also am aware of others......I would not breed to Boban, but I wouldn't breed to Crok either...just a matter of preference. The Sven/ Sindy combination was not a good mating for hip production, but it always goes to the specific combinations and balancing out the negatives.


Interesting distinction between the two cases--Boban's reputation is of a dog that is more aggressive than what he seems to produce (or that is found elsewhere in those bloodlines). 

Crok's reputation was for more producing aggression in his progeny than about his own temperament. And it's not as much of a great surprise to hear it coming from these bloodlines--although the most problems seem to come through Crok. Mink was reputed to be a very tough dog who produced very tough dogs. 

As far as the hip problems... I went through and looked at the ZW numbers on Boban's parents Sven and Sindy and they don't seem to reflect the production of a lot of hip problems.

I did read a rumor of elbow issues from Sven--that's a lot harder to track since that is still a new thing as far as the SV recording/following it.


----------



## cliffson1

I was not referring to Sindy or Sven's hip production individually. Boban produced some dogs with the same personality traits as himself. Its all good


----------



## SunCzarina

One random occurring aggressive dog such as Boban (and his progency) don't negate a wonderful line. Something to watch out for yeah.

Sven's progeny are very popular in the NE. It'd be a long list of dogs I personally know who are his grandchildren or great grands. None of them are excessively aggressive. All of them are even tempered, outgoing and just plain nice dog - nice isn't a word I usually use lightly for a GSD. Otto is a nice dog, as are all his cousins. Excellent ambassadors for the breed, the lot of them.

Otto's mother is a Grafental granddaughter (her father is Treu vom Schaferliesel), charming bitch, Treu is awesome. All of Otto's intensity comes from his sire's side. His sweetness from his mother.


----------



## wolfstraum

Not every dog with Crok is nasty, nor every Yoshey either....Tammy (Branca's mom) has a lovely Yoshey daughter, Branca, now 14....and I have been around dogs with Crok who have perfectly acceptable temperaments....when a comment is made about temperament coming from a well known dog - it is not a judgement on every single member owned dog! It is an observation and something to consider in buying or breeding....Will I bring Crok into my program? No. I may breed to a dog with Crok in the 4th or 5th generation, that I know well, but that does not mean I want to incorporate that long term.

Lee


----------



## SunCzarina

That brings up another important point for the OP to learn about: What is the breeder's intent with their program?

Are they breeding for a family dog or for a sport dog? 

How does the average person tell? 

I know what I was looking for when I selected our last puppy (lol I got exactly what I was asking for!) 

I have a pretty good idea of what you and the other sport people would be looking for.

Question is, what does the OP want to look for on a breeders website - specifically...

ETA: that didn't come out exactly nice 'sport people', hope you know what I mean, it's not a cliquey thing, it's just that adaptable drivey family dog people are looking for something different than someone who's going to spend every saturday at SchH. Wish I had time or someone to watch my children, Otto would have loved it.


----------



## cliffson1

What Lee said!!!
@ SunCzarina...I have a female that is linebred on Sven, so I have nothing against Sven....just wouldn't go through Boban.


----------



## SunCzarina

I think that's an important point too - asking around what to expect from a pedigree. 

I already knew quite a bit about Otti's mother's dogs. So I spent about a year emailing his sire's owner and asking people who had his pups from previous litters. Admittedly, Xander's looks initially tripped my triggerbut I wanted to be sure what his temperament was - intense drive shows through in his pics. Upon meeting him, I saw how well he channels that drive. What impressed me the most was how he'd been outside giving it all he had but she called him in the house, he went right to his bed without being told and sat there observing what my children were doing.


----------



## Jo Ellen

I'm looking for a family dog, quite honestly. I envy the sport enthusiasts, I am thrilled for the dogs that enjoy these homes and owners. I feel guilty for not being one of them.

I have found a comfortable compromise with my golden retriever. We don't hunt, no real emphasis on retrieving anything but she does LOVE to fish. She'd swim the English Channel to retrieve a fish  but not for the purpose of returning it to me, she keeps her fish to herself, haha. She doesn't know she's a bird dog, I call her my field and stream golden  She's very happy when she's fishing, it's been her passion since she was a year old, self taught. 

I will need to find a similar comfortable compromise with my first GSD. I'm torn because temperament is the most important thing to me so I tend to feel more drawn to the working lines .... but I won't be working my GSD in the traditional sense. There will be a lot of obedience training, perhaps some fun sports like tracking (that does appeal to me) but not sure of the training opportunities around here, will need to check into that. But the extent of our participation in these activities will have everything to do with temperament and good nerve. 

I want my GSD to love swimming and retrieving. Those are two great physical activites that are stimulating and also easily accessible to me. But is that enough for a working line GSD to be content?

All this said, can I be a respectable owner of a GSD? The dog comes first with me ... meaning I don't go searching for a dog to satisfy just myself, my priority is for the dog to be satisfied with me.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> What Lee said!!!
> @ SunCzarina...I have a female that is linebred on Sven, so I have nothing against Sven....just wouldn't go through Boban.


Tritto.

I have a Yoschy granddaughter who is now 13 who is the best company in the house and completely reliable with humans, kittens, puppies, small dogs, etc. (She's also the only dog I ever had who has drawn blood on two people--both times, decoys who got "smart" with her and tried to correct her in the work and she nailed them.)

I also had a litter of puppies that was bred 2-4 on Sven (a decision made by the breeders of Grafental/Ludwigseck kennel when I imported the dam), and that litter has super steady nerves--they are being trained to work in SAR, herding, therapy dog work (post-disaster with her psychologist owner), agility, personal protection, and one is well on his way to being a mobility-assistance service dog. One of the 8 pups I kept back to raise personally because at 10 weeks, she growled and stared down a man who was looking hard and leaning into her from across the room. She's now 14 months and we'll see where she heads--but she's in NO WAY handler aggressive and she's excellent with puppies and kids but would kill a cat or a chicken in a second.


----------



## SunCzarina

> But is that enough for a working line GSD to be content?


Mine seem to be. My older female is a rescue so I have no idea what her breeders intent was. Otto's breeder, that's exactly her intent, a well rounded family GSD.

I think in your case, just ask the breeder. They should be honest with you, if they're breeding for sport but say they have lesser dogs, keep looking. I know people who fell into that trap and got more dog than they wanted.

If you're willing to take a trip to NH to get your pup or have your pup travel, I do recommend Otto's breeder. You'll find plenty of Von Hena-c dogs here. The only person I've heard complain would have complained if her dog shed gold bullion.


----------



## bocron

We have 6 WL GSDs in our household currently. Every one of them would be perfectly content spending time with just us hanging out, chasing a stick, swimming in the creek and hiking in the woods. If I really looked at it, that is pretty much what they do most of the time. We have Schutzhund here twice a week and they get to do bitework each time, but it probably totals about 20-30 minutes total per week(less when they are just starting out). The rest of the time they are happy being our dogs. They really enjoy when we track which we'd love to do every day, but honestly can't. We do obedience every day with our dogs, but for 10 minutes on average. While they absolutely LOVE bitework, I don't think they would be less than what they are had they never tried it. So I think it is perfectly fine to expect a WL dog to be a good companion, ours are!


----------



## LaRen616

In almost every litter, working lines or showlines, there are puppies with different energy and drive levels.

I have a 2.5 year old male GSD that is American pet lines (byb) and West German Showlines, he has low/medium drive, a wonderful outgoing personality and he is the most friendly dog I have ever met. He loves everyone and loves other dogs. He also loves to swim. He is a wonderful, smart, easy going dog.

I just got a 11 week old female GSD that is Czech/West German Working line and from what I can see right now, has medium drive, is a very confident, curious, smart and brave puppy. She also enjoys swimming and she can keep up with adult dogs on long walks. I am loving what I am seeing with her, she is a great puppy and I can not wait to see how she turns out as she matures.

I think you can find the perfect puppy in either showing or working lines, just make sure you find a very reputable breeder and tell them EXACTLY what you are looking for in a puppy. ​


----------



## crackem

a good dog can come from anywhere, and I do mean anywhere. That said,

A line that has been tested for the past hundred or more years for temperment is going to produce more stable dogs than those lines that haven't. I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Jo Ellen said:


> I want my GSD to love swimming and retrieving. Those are two great physical activites that are stimulating and also easily accessible to me. But is that enough for a working line GSD to be content?
> 
> All this said, can I be a respectable owner of a GSD? The dog comes first with me ... meaning I don't go searching for a dog to satisfy just myself, my priority is for the dog to be satisfied with me.


Yes, that can be enough for a working-line GSD to be content. I have puppies who I *know* will need regular work, exercise, and mental challenge--I can usually tell at/before 8 weeks and make sure these pups go to working homes. And in some litters, it may be 3/4 that have to go to homes that plan to work them and some litters may only have 1/4 who HAS to work, but either way, there's that puppy or two who would love someone to do stuff with them--but they don't care if it's a hike or trip to swim in the river and then back home to lounge in front of the TV together. These pups usually appreciate a mental and physical workout (mental workout -- training, tracking, herding, etc.), but their priority is getting to spend time with their person. These are more generic GSD traits than working-line traits, too.

So yes, I think that you would do well with a GSD, and that a GSD would do well with you.


----------



## crackem

> All this said, can I be a respectable owner of a GSD? The dog comes first with me ... meaning I don't go searching for a dog to satisfy just myself, my priority is for the dog to be satisfied with me.


Yes, they are active dogs, or should be, as they are a breed meant to be working. Being active and being engaged with your dog should be enough. They don't "need" to do protection sports or work for a PD to have a good home.

They do need interaction, attention and training. That's it


----------



## Rei

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm looking for a family dog, quite honestly. I envy the sport enthusiasts, I am thrilled for the dogs that enjoy these homes and owners. I feel guilty for not being one of them.
> 
> I will need to find a similar comfortable compromise with my first GSD. I'm torn because temperament is the most important thing to me so I tend to feel more drawn to the working lines .... but I won't be working my GSD in the traditional sense. There will be a lot of obedience training, perhaps some fun sports like tracking (that does appeal to me) but not sure of the training opportunities around here, will need to check into that. But the extent of our participation in these activities will have everything to do with temperament and good nerve.
> 
> I want my GSD to love swimming and retrieving. Those are two great physical activites that are stimulating and also easily accessible to me. But is that enough for a working line GSD to be content?
> 
> All this said, can I be a respectable owner of a GSD? The dog comes first with me ... meaning I don't go searching for a dog to satisfy just myself, my priority is for the dog to be satisfied with me.


Quite honestly I think the right working line German Shepherd would be happy with such a lifestyle. Your post summed up my thoughts exactly when I got my first German Shepherd (and my first dog, at that). I wanted working lines, but was worried that I could not fulfill the dog's needs for mental and physical stimulation. 

My German Shepherd is now 2 1/2 years old, from a primarily West German working line breeding. He actually has Crok Erlenbusch in the 4th generation of his pedigree, through his dam. I can easily say that he has been and is the ideal companion for me - two days ago we took him to the mall with us and he behaved very well, accepting hugs and pets from young children and tolerating squealing, screaming toddlers. It was Labor Day weekend and the place was packed, but he stayed at my side and virtually never even turned a nose to sniff at the people pushing past us. Then yesterday I woke up late and then spent about 10 hours straight putting together a bed frame. Because of poor time management, my dog did not go outside the entire day, until around 9-10 PM. And during that time, there is never any pacing, never any whining, never any trouble making. Simply curled up in the corner of the room and went to sleep for hours. 

On an average summer day, we get about 5 hours of exercise a day and some training. Not intensive exercise, just an easy stroll around the neighborhood, or a jog. But as a student and someone who sometimes works overtime when it comes to my job, I am not always able to be out 5 hours. When I have classes and work, I just get up at 6 AM, go for a 45 minute - 1 hour run, and leave the house. In the afternoon, it's another 45 minute - 1 hour of running/jogging/fetch. Between the afternoon and the evening, I usually like to get in a few 15 minute training sessions, although we also practice obedience on our walks. Then in the evening I try to get out for at least an hour, just a walk and a game of fetch with his rope + ball toy. My dog has many full siblings training in Schutzhund right now, owned by people who have been into dog sports for decades. But just a half an hour of fetch and agility practice in the morning can leave him panting for hours. 

Before I got a dog, I was a complete couch potato - my ideal weekend was sleeping in until late afternoon, I did change my habits to adapt to my dog and my working line dog has been incredibly easy to live with. The absolute best companion for me.


----------



## horsegirl

Jo Ellen said:


> Wolfstraum, I'm not ready yet, but thank you. I still have a lot of learning to do before I'm certain a GSD is the right dog for me, and I'm the right person for a GSD  I very firmly believe that bringing a dog into the home is a commitment for the life of the dog ... it would be devastating for me to make a poor decision. And I already have a dog. I'm considering a GSD for my _next_ dog. I'm a one-dog kind of girl, really, pack of two is where I'm comfortable.
> 
> But I'm learning so much here with the links members have provided. It's really hard to just go out on the net and find good information, hard to sort through the crap and the good stuff.
> 
> I'm reading Elements of Temperament ... I love this, this is what attracts me so strongly to the GSD...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting the impression that working lines are more in keeping with correct temperament, because they are bred with temperament in mind. ASL's, for example, are bred for looks, temperament is dispensible? That would be unfortunate if I'm understanding correctly. So right now I am favoring the working lines.
> 
> Need to get clear on all these issues and comfortable with my opinions before I bring home my first GSD.


My ASL reacts exactly as a gsd should , aloof , brave & loyal. As with all "types" you just need to do your homework before purchasing. good luck. All lines ahve great representations and not so great .


----------



## trudy

You are so right Horsegirl, my Can/American showline dogs are perfect for me, fearless, obedient, calm enough for crowds, yet when out doing anything as much energy as I could ever want and NO they are not over angulated nor lame nor bad hips nor thunder shy. Nor any other of the many complaints posted by some, There are great,good, soso, poor and just plain awful in All sections and I will admit to being very picky and would NOT like all ASL, I do love mine and most that are on this forum. I know each and everyone loves their dog and their line and I get that. I do however like to say there are some in all lines as previously mentioned. And I do stand behind my opinion and will share my dogs anywhere and with anyone. And I KNOW mine are good and best for me, and most people seeing them never complain they look or act less than their ideal German Shepherd should


----------



## Emoore

A well-bred working line dog is everything a GSD should be: obedient, intelligent, courageous, loyal, aloof, and eager to please. A well-bred German show line dog is everything a GSD should be: obedient, intelligent, courageous, loyal, aloof, and eager to please. A well-bred American show line dog is everything a GSD should be: obed. . . . well, you get the idea.

There are some differences in appearance, energy level, hardness, etc., but in general a well-bred GSD is a well-bred GSD.


----------



## horsegirl

Jo Ellen said:


> I love the look of the show lines, especially the American show lines. But I'm hesitant to go that route because I have a feeling that temperament is not as reliable. I don't want to gamble, I want to stack my odds of getting that wonderful first GSD.
> 
> Am I wrong?


All lines have bad teperamented dogs. some working lines are agressive , some show lines are timid. There are a few ASL people on here , we all care very much about temperament, we just like pretty too. do not be discouraged about the asl , just do your homework , go to shows, look up a local GSD club , You will find an ASL with looks and temperament.


----------



## horsegirl

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm looking for a family dog, quite honestly. I envy the sport enthusiasts, I am thrilled for the dogs that enjoy these homes and owners. I feel guilty for not being one of them.
> 
> I have found a comfortable compromise with my golden retriever. We don't hunt, no real emphasis on retrieving anything but she does LOVE to fish. She'd swim the English Channel to retrieve a fish  but not for the purpose of returning it to me, she keeps her fish to herself, haha. She doesn't know she's a bird dog, I call her my field and stream golden  She's very happy when she's fishing, it's been her passion since she was a year old, self taught.
> 
> I will need to find a similar comfortable compromise with my first GSD. I'm torn because temperament is the most important thing to me so I tend to feel more drawn to the working lines .... but I won't be working my GSD in the traditional sense. There will be a lot of obedience training, perhaps some fun sports like tracking (that does appeal to me) but not sure of the training opportunities around here, will need to check into that. But the extent of our participation in these activities will have everything to do with temperament and good nerve.
> 
> I want my GSD to love swimming and retrieving. Those are two great physical activites that are stimulating and also easily accessible to me. But is that enough for a working line GSD to be content?
> 
> All this said, can I be a respectable owner of a GSD? The dog comes first with me ... meaning I don't go searching for a dog to satisfy just myself, my priority is for the dog to be satisfied with me.


my ASL .. has a crazy ball drive and loves the water... He is a perfect fit for me, I do show akc, and am going to start herding, but my dog would be perfectly happy to go for daily walks (as long as a ball is involved) and hikes then relax on the couch.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> A well-bred working line dog is everything a GSD should be: obedient, intelligent, courageous, loyal, aloof, and eager to please. A well-bred German show line dog is everything a GSD should be: obedient, intelligent, courageous, loyal, aloof, and eager to please. A well-bred American show line dog is everything a GSD should be: obed. . . . well, you get the idea.
> 
> There are some differences in appearance, energy level, hardness, etc., but in general a well-bred GSD is a well-bred GSD.


like -- you may get some heat , but I agree 100% .


----------



## Andaka

Regional Clubs - Mid Atlantic

German Shepherd Dog Clubs in the Mid-Atlantic Region.

Darby-Dan German Shepherds, Saugerties, NY - Quality since 1961

Alkarah - Quality AKC German Shepherd Dogs

Two kennels I recommend in PA.


----------



## Jo Ellen

I'm listening to all of you  I want to keep an open mind, love hearing everyone's experiences with the different lines.

What is hardness?


----------



## Emoore

Jo Ellen said:


> I'm listening to all of you  I want to keep an open mind, love hearing everyone's experiences with the different lines.
> 
> What is hardness?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/165081-what-hard-dog.html

Have fun.  Watch out, you're going down the rabbit hole!


----------



## Jo Ellen

okay, thanks for the heads up


----------



## Jo Ellen

Well that's all perfectly clear


----------



## Smithie86

Look for the Am lines that do herding, agility, OB. Most of those do OFAs.

Look for those breeders that do it. Handling puppies for a few months gives a very basic idea (if that is done), but the training and trialing at any level really gives you the true idea of what the dog is like and what you are producing. Hard work, but it is worth it. Most of the successful breeders do that. Breeding paper to paper is one thing, but is flat to the fully dimensional aspect of hard work, effort and reality hits of what you are really breeding.

Few scenarios. 
One was in CA, talking to someone that was slightly physically impaired, full time job, no help, no family. There were more than enough people to help, send out the dogs for training, but he would have nothing to do with it. His comment was that "you can not buy experience and knowledge. You earn it and learn it".

Second was Randy Tyson that worked you . I did show training, ADs, shows, koers on my little working line male (Baer), as that was the only way your learn. Even if not a breeder, learn on the dog you have, make the mistakes on the training field and the trial field. Very easy to play at club - lot different to walk the center line.

And her comment - a BH is NOT a title. Takes guts to do the sch 1.


----------



## wolfstraum

It is all about odds....I have seen good companion dogs from BYB - heck, I had a black and silver dog who did the whole Sch3 routine happily.....as long as you did not hit her with a stick! Environmental and social nerves great - but would not take a stick hit....so not 100% - 

I have started and deleted this over and over again....my observations are not popular...but I can cite example after example, and it is my honest conclusion.

The odds of getting the dog you want, non problematic, IMO !!!!, are best wtih the Euro working lines from a proven breeder of same....that there are such dogs in other 'type' are attested to by some here....one of the most nervy, pathetically sad to see, dogs I have EVER seen in my life was an extreme ASL from a kennel on a cited link....all I kept hearing was how she moved - the poor pups I saw from a GV and her were heartbreakingly fearful...so what good was that movement??? I know I generate some resentment for my comments - and yes, there may be solid dogs out there with CH all through their pedigrees - but they are not the norm! Yes, there are nervy Euro lined dogs, but they are not the norm either!!!! Unfortunately, breeders of all types get hung up on something - movement, color, grip, reach, croup, heads, ears, (lol - I look at feet first - horseman's reaction!) but unfortunately too many sacrifice balance and temperament when trying to breed for cosmetic characteristics as their priority. .they continue to pay lip service to "balance" and temperament, while in reality, deluding themselves into ignoring those characteristics to achieve their goals of type/movement.

Form follows function - function for a working breed is working...herding in of and for itself is only a small facet of the work the GSD is capable of - narcotics detection, patrol, explosive detection, heck - even bedbug and currency detection dogs are functions for which the GSD is commonly used...and I would guess 95%+ of those working ARE Euro WL dogs....and a balanced WL dog is still just as good a companion dog as a working dog.

Lee


----------



## cliffson1

:gsdhead::bump:


----------



## trudy

Lee I can sure tell what you breed....and you forgot cancer identification, autism dogs, etc...oh yeah and the unspecialized masses that help families in many forms,the many in the news for chasing off wild life, intruders, that get help for injured and ill family members...yep the breed is very good at so many things and the funny part are the high numbers that are the black and tans....hhhmmm...not many WL black and tans.....


----------



## Emoore

Confirmation bias: noun, a tendency for people to favor information which favors their preconceived notions or hypotheses.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Emoore said:


> Confirmation bias: noun, a tendency for people to favor information which favors their preconceived notions or hypotheses.


Okay 

I have a date this weekend to meet my first GSD. His name is Roman. I can't wait, I am so excited. Not sure what kind he is, I'll be sure to ask. I'm nervous! I know how to meet and greet golden retrievers, that's easy ... but not sure how it works with GSD's. This will be a great learning experience for me.


----------



## horsegirl

wolfstraum said:


> It is all about odds....I have seen good companion dogs from BYB - heck, I had a black and silver dog who did the whole Sch3 routine happily.....as long as you did not hit her with a stick! Environmental and social nerves great - but would not take a stick hit....so not 100% -
> 
> I have started and deleted this over and over again....my observations are not popular...but I can cite example after example, and it is my honest conclusion.
> 
> The odds of getting the dog you want, non problematic, IMO !!!!, are best wtih the Euro working lines from a proven breeder of same....that there are such dogs in other 'type' are attested to by some here....one of the most nervy, pathetically sad to see, dogs I have EVER seen in my life was an extreme ASL from a kennel on a cited link....all I kept hearing was how she moved - the poor pups I saw from a GV and her were heartbreakingly fearful...so what good was that movement??? I know I generate some resentment for my comments - and yes, there may be solid dogs out there with CH all through their pedigrees - but they are not the norm! Yes, there are nervy Euro lined dogs, but they are not the norm either!!!! Unfortunately, breeders of all types get hung up on something - movement, color, grip, reach, croup, heads, ears, (lol - I look at feet first - horseman's reaction!) but unfortunately too many sacrifice balance and temperament when trying to breed for cosmetic characteristics as their priority. .they continue to pay lip service to "balance" and temperament, while in reality, deluding themselves into ignoring those characteristics to achieve their goals of type/movement.
> 
> Form follows function - function for a working breed is working...herding in of and for itself is only a small facet of the work the GSD is capable of - narcotics detection, patrol, explosive detection, heck - even bedbug and currency detection dogs are functions for which the GSD is commonly used...and I would guess 95%+ of those working ARE Euro WL dogs....and a balanced WL dog is still just as good a companion dog as a working dog.
> 
> Lee


opinions........ they are like noses everyone has one... some people just cannot think anyone elses opinion may be of merit too.


----------



## wolfstraum

and some people cannot see the noses on their own faces....LOL LOL They are in denial and cannot be objective. 

Lee


----------



## cliffson1

Whether a dog is prettier than another is an opinion....whether a dog passes a competition trial or working trial is a fact....Whether a person thinks a certain line of dog still has working ability or not is an opinion....whether or not you consistently have some lines doing the work the breed was created for is factual. Let's not get things twisted...lol


----------



## horsegirl

wolfstraum said:


> and some people cannot see the noses on their own faces....LOL LOL They are in denial and cannot be objective.
> 
> Lee


perfect statement , my thoughts exactly...


----------



## wolfstraum

cliffson1 said:


> Whether a dog is prettier than another is an opinion....whether a dog passes a competition trial or working trial is a fact....Whether a person thinks a certain line of dog still has working ability or not is an opinion....whether or not you consistently have some lines doing the work the breed was created for is factual. Let's not get things twisted...lol



yes, and when I see ASLs getting a combo of UD, TDX, agilty/flyball, narcotics/explosive detection AND a schutzhund title on the back end of a CH, then I will say the breeders are trying to breed a working dog. Otherwise the GSD is a facade...

Lee


----------



## horsegirl

cliffson1 said:


> Whether a dog is prettier than another is an opinion....whether a dog passes a competition trial or working trial is a fact....Whether a person thinks a certain line of dog still has working ability or not is an opinion....whether or not you consistently have some lines doing the work the breed was created for is factual. Let's not get things twisted...lol


yes lets not become twisted (a little late for some I think) -- the op likes asl dogs, we should be helping them , by providing the best information we have, the best way to find responsible breeders. Again of course this has become something of a my lines are the best and there is no merit to any other line post. Every day I read the same crap , it all reads blah blah blah to me. I am not knowledgeable as some so please tell me , when was schautzund (sp) started , what year ? Does the breed standard say a GSD must bite a sleeve, or be ok getting hit with a stick to be deemed worthy? please help me to understand. Is the op ready for the crazyness of some wl dog? How about letting them know what the downsides are with the wl dogs , come on there must be some downfalls with the "perfect" gsd line. LOL LOL----


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> when was schautzund (sp) started , what year ?Does the breed standard say a GSD must bite a sleeve, or be ok getting hit with a stick to be deemed worthy?


Under the German system it does. Under the American system, any dog whose parents are registered and whose owner sends the AKC money is A-OK for breeding. I believe Schutzhund was formalized in the early 1900's, shortly after the founding of the GSD breed. Schutzhund and German Shepherds were developed together, as Schutzhund was began as a way to decide which dogs were suitable for the continuation of the new breed and which were not.

I have nothing against ASL dogs and think they can be good pets and herding dogs, service dogs etc. But what I wrote above are the answers to your questions.


----------



## Emoore

The first Schutzhund trial was held in 1901.


----------



## Catu

horsegirl said:


> when was schautzund (sp) started , what year ?


1901




horsegirl said:


> Does the breed standard say a GSD must bite a sleeve, or be ok getting hit with a stick to be deemed worthy? please help me to understand.


Yes

To be breed worthy all GSDs must have a Schutzhund or HGH title. BOTH include biting a sleeve.

The above everywhere but in North America, where clubs are not obligated to follow the instruction of the club of the country of origin of the breed. In this case the SV in Germany. That because your countries are big enough to have a market guaranteed to breed whatever you want to your own taste and be able to sell it, as already happened to the Cocker Spaniel and the Akita.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Under the German system it does. Under the American system, any dog whose parents are registered and whose owner sends the AKC money is A-OK for breeding. I believe Schutzhund was formalized in the early 1900's, shortly after the founding of the GSD breed. Schutzhund and German Shepherds were developed together, as Schutzhund was began as a way to decide which dogs were suitable for the continuation of the new breed and which were not.
> 
> I have nothing against ASL dogs and think they can be good pets and herding dogs, service dogs etc. But what I wrote above are the answers to your questions.


thank you for the answers.. where would I find the german standard written ?


----------



## horsegirl

Catu said:


> 1901
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> To be breed worthy all GSDs must have a Schutzhund or HGH title. BOTH include biting a sleeve.
> 
> The above everywhere but in North America, where clubs are not obligated to follow the instruction of the club of the country of origin of the breed. In this case the SV in Germany. That because your countries are big enough to have a market guaranteed to breed whatever you want to your own taste and be able to sell it, as already happened to the Cocker Spaniel and the Akita.


thanks for the answers, since I live america I think I will stick with american rules and regulations.


----------



## onyx'girl

*SV Standards

http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm*

http://www.akcstandard.com/breed/German Shepherd Dog.html


----------



## horsegirl

horsegirl said:


> thanks for the answers, since I live america I think I will stick with american rules and regulations.


another question. So that being said, then all wl dogs are registered in germany not with the akc right?


----------



## Smithie86

No, I think that there are some good points made here.

I have had 1/2 Am/1/2 German working. He was SCH titled and koered. But that is few and far between with those lines. I had a full German show line (3-3 Cello) that we trained, titled and koered. I trained in a club that was primarily show and expected all dogs to work well, regardless of pedigree. And we have working lines. Husband did titling training for a few years with show lines, plus did police selection, training for military, etc.

There is a difference with the lines. This is from people that have experience with the lines, both us and multiple posters (cliff, lee, etc).

This is not a bashing - this is something that is there.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> another question. So that being said, then all wl dogs are registered in germany not with the akc right?


Most breeders of German line dogs choose to adhere to the stricter German standards, even though they live in the U.S. Working line German Shepherds born in the U.S. are registered with the AKC. Again, since the AKC has no standards for breeding (not a value judgement, just a fact), people can choose to follow the German standard -- or the Olde Fashioned 150lb longhaired standard, or the Alsatian Shepalute standard, or the floppy eared undersized Panda Shepherd standard-- and as long as the parents are AKC registered and the owner pays out their $$$, the dog is an AKC registered German Shepherd.


----------



## horsegirl

onyx'girl said:


> *SV Standards
> 
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard*
> 
> German Shepherd Dog - AKC STANDARD


hey thats sounds rather like the american standard, I did not see anything in the standard that states the dog must bite a sleeve or get hit with a stick?? Is the standard not about character and looks?


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Most breeders of German line dogs choose to adhere to the stricter German standards, even though they live in the U.S. Working line German Shepherds born in the U.S. are registered with the AKC. Again, since the AKC has no standards for breeding (not a value judgement, just a fact), people can choose to follow the German standard -- or the Olde Fashioned 150lb longhaired standard, or the Alsatian Shepalute standard, or the floppy eared undersized Panda Shepherd standard-- and as long as the parents are AKC registered and the owner pays out their $$$, the dog is an AKC registered German Shepherd.


I am sorry , I was not talking about breeding , I was asking about the gsd standard and from what I have just read there is not much different in the german version of the standard and the american standard.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> hey thats sounds rather like the american standard, I did not see anything in the standard that states the dog must bite a sleeve or get hit with a stick?? Is the standard not about character and looks?


Under the SV system, a dog must have an SchH1, a be evaluated by a breed steward as adhering to the standard, and pass hip and elbow evaluations in order to be approved for breeding. They don't have to have that in order to be registered and recognized as German Shepherds, but they do have to have it to be bred.


----------



## onyx'girl

horsegirl said:


> hey thats sounds rather like the american standard, I did not see anything in the standard that states the dog must bite a sleeve or get hit with a stick?? Is the standard not about character and looks?


The standard is stated in the first link(I posted 3), I personally would rather go by that one than the AKC if I were purchasing a pup.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported. 

How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Most breeders of German line dogs choose to adhere to the stricter German standards, even though they live in the U.S. Working line German Shepherds born in the U.S. are registered with the AKC. Again, since the AKC has no standards for breeding (not a value judgement, just a fact), people can choose to follow the German standard -- or the Olde Fashioned 150lb longhaired standard, or the Alsatian Shepalute standard, or the floppy eared undersized Panda Shepherd standard-- and as long as the parents are AKC registered and the owner pays out their $$$, the dog is an AKC registered German Shepherd.


question , if the akc is such a shoddy organization , then why would they even care if their dogs are akc registered? it simply means nothing then .


----------



## horsegirl

Whiteshepherds said:


> Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported.
> 
> How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?


good question


----------



## onyx'girl

That is where the Am lines came into play.... US has no rules as far as whether you can breed a dog or not. Detrimental to the breed? AKC is a registry of pedigree only, nothing else.


----------



## horsegirl

onyx'girl said:


> The standard is stated in the first link(I posted 3), I personally would rather go by that one than the AKC if I were purchasing a pup.


sorry when i read it there was only one link. but I guess comparing the german standard to american standard would be more apples to apples . sv whats that? us shutzund club?
sounds like a club ?


----------



## robinhuerta

In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> question , if the akc is such a shoddy organization , then why would they even care if their dogs are akc registered? it simply means nothing then .


Who is they? The AKC or the buying public? I'm confused about your question. 

I don't think the AKC is necessarily a shoddy organization, it's the best we've got here in America for sure.. They do a great job putting on performance and conformation events, they do a good job of trying to educate dog owners, I applaud their efforts with the CGC and STAR puppy program. It just doesn't deserve its reputation as an ensurer of quality that it has among the general dog buying public.

No hate on the AKC, but it's a simple fact that there are no requirements to be bred or registered beyond having registered parents and paying a fee. It is a fact that pedigree buying goes on-- people buy the pedigree and AKC registration number of a deceased or neutered dog and use it for their unregistered dog to produce "registered" puppies. This can happen because breeding stock is not required to have permanent identification or be DNA tested unless they are producing more than 5 litters. Even then there is no DNA testing to prove that the puppies in question belong to the DNA tested dog.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Under the SV system, a dog must have an SchH1, a be evaluated by a breed steward as adhering to the standard, and pass hip and elbow evaluations in order to be approved for breeding. They don't have to have that in order to be registered and recognized as German Shepherds, but they do have to have it to be bred.


I am talking about the standard not breeding , sorry


----------



## robinhuerta

Emoore.....I think that stud dogs have to have DNA now, if they sire *3* or more litters.
To DNA test the puppies....the parents would both have to have DNA on file...and each puppy needs to be individually tested.
This is usually done when a litter has the possibility of "multiple sires". They *do* have a way to test now.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> sorry when i read it there was only one link. but I guess comparing the german standard to american standard would be more apples to apples . sv whats that? us shutzund club?
> sounds like a club ?


SV = German Shepherd breed registry and governing body of German Shepherds in Germany. Kind of like the AKC, but it's in Germany and only for GSDs. It stands for Verein de Deutsche Schaferhund, or Schaferhund Verein, SV for short. 



**please excuse my lack of umlauts.


----------



## Emoore

robinhuerta said:


> Emoore.....I think that stud dogs have to have DNA now, if they sire *3* or more litters.


 I wasn't aware, thanks!



robinhuerta said:


> To DNA test the puppies....the parents would both have to have DNA on file...and each puppy needs to be individually tested.
> This is usually done when a litter has the possibility of "multiple sires". They *do* have a way to test now.


But wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of AKC puppies are not DNA tested?




horsegirl said:


> I am talking about the standard not breeding , sorry


Breeding and the standard are two sides of the same coin, how do you separate them? Without breeding, there's no reason for a standard, and without the standard how do you know what you're breeding *for*?


----------



## Catu

:rolleyes2:
The _worst blind_ man is the _one_ who doesn't _want to see..._


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Who is they? The AKC or the buying public? I'm confused about your question.
> 
> I don't think the AKC is necessarily a shoddy organization, it's the best we've got here in America for sure.. They do a great job putting on performance and conformation events, they do a good job of trying to educate dog owners, I applaud their efforts with the CGC and STAR puppy program. It just doesn't deserve its reputation as an ensurer of quality that it has among the general dog buying public.
> 
> No hate on the AKC, but it's a simple fact that there are no requirements to be bred or registered beyond having registered parents and paying a fee. It is a fact that pedigree buying goes on-- people buy the pedigree and AKC registration number of a deceased or neutered dog and use it for their unregistered dog to produce "registered" puppies. This can happen because breeding stock is not required to have permanent identification or be DNA tested unless they are producing more than 5 litters. Even then there is no DNA testing to prove that the puppies in question belong to the DNA tested dog.


you answered my question, thats the reason people register with akc then hmmmm

I bet the same thing happens in germany


----------



## robinhuerta

Absolutely Emoore...I agree.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> I bet the same thing happens in germany


I'm sure it does, but it's harder because breeding animals are required to have permanent identification that matches them to their registration.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> I wasn't aware, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> But wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of AKC puppies are not DNA tested?
> 
> 
> 
> Breeding and the standard are two sides of the same coin, how do you separate them? Without breeding, there's no reason for a standard, and without the standard how do you know what you're breeding *for*?


good point , but I am really just talking about the standard , for the regular everyday person , who occasionally shows , hearding or some type of aggression training. Not about people that have given their lives to the breed.


----------



## horsegirl

Catu said:


> :rolleyes2:
> The _worst blind_ man is the _one_ who doesn't _want to see..._


the worst person is someone who walks by a blind man stumbling and doesn't help , just laughs or treats them like they are less than, and thinks they are actually one of the good guys


----------



## Chris Wild

The SV and AKC are not equivalent. The AKC is comprised of breed clubs, and it is those individual breed clubs who determine what, if any, breeding regulations are in place for that breed. The breed club for the GSD in America is GSDCA. The breed club for GSDs in Germany is the SV, which is a member of a larger organization of breed clubs, the VDH, just as GSDCA is a member of AKC.

The AKC is nothing but a registry to maintain the paperwork. The breed clubs control the breeds. If they wanted titles and hip certs and such for breeding, then the AKC would institute those requirements. 

AKC is also the ONLY registry in the US that is recognized internationally and has a relationship with the FCI. Which means that yes, AKC papers are important to many people for many reasons. But they have never, and should never, be taken to be a stamp of quality. Nor were they ever intended to be. Merely a testament to purebred status and known pedigree.


----------



## horsegirl

Whiteshepherds said:


> Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported.
> 
> How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?


why has no one answered your question?


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> good point , but I am really just talking about the standard , for the regular everyday person , who occasionally shows , hearding or some type of aggression training. Not about people that have given their lives to the breed.


OK I see what you're saying. Yes, under the SV system you can have a registered German Shepherd who has never bitten anything but dog biscuits and has never been to an event or had his hips x-rayed. But his parents, his grand parents, and his great-grandparents have for nearly a century. (except for the x-ray thing. Not sure when that was instituted.)


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> why has no one answered your question?


Robin did:


robinhuerta said:


> In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.


----------



## horsegirl

robinhuerta said:


> In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.


ah so there may be a total mixture of all lines in the current american bred working lines then?


----------



## Chris Wild

Under the SV system, a puppy can only be registered if both parents meet the requirements of title, show rating, breed survey and hip and elbow certifications.

Can one breed a dog without those things? Certainly. But it's offspring cannot be registered. They may be purebred GSDs, but would be the equivalent of unpapered BYB dogs.

Of course while this all sounds grand, and this system did help maintain quality for a number of years, the reality is that over time things shifted and instead of making sure the dog's met the standards, the standards were lowered to meet the common denominator of dogs, and quality has suffered as a result.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> OK I see what you're saying. Yes, under the SV system you can have a registered German Shepherd who has never bitten anything but dog biscuits and has never been to an event or had his hips x-rayed. But his parents, his grand parents, and his great-grandparents have for nearly a century. (except for the x-ray thing. Not sure when that was instituted.)


thanks you have been very patient, it feels really good to get away from the negative talk that always seems to happen on here. I know we are all very passionate about the breed ( or we would not spend a whole night typing about them) lol


----------



## Chris Wild

There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.


----------



## horsegirl

Chris Wild said:


> Under the SV system, a puppy can only be registered if both parents meet the requirements of title, show rating, breed survey and hip and elbow certifications.
> 
> Can one breed a dog without those things? Certainly. But it's offspring cannot be registered.
> 
> Of course while this all sounds grand, and this system did help maintain quality for a number of years, the reality is that over time things shifted and instead of making sure the dog's met the standards, the standards were lowered to meet the common denominator of dogs, and quality has suffered as a result.


thanks , very helpful!


----------



## Emoore

Chris Wild said:


> There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.


This. People in America breeding working line dogs are either breeding dogs imported from Germany, or dogs of recent German ancestry.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> thanks you have been very patient, it feels really good to get away from the negative talk that always seems to happen on here. I know we are all very passionate about the breed ( or we would not spend a whole night typing about them) lol


Yeah, this has been a good discussion. I've learned a few things.


----------



## horsegirl

Chris Wild said:


> There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.


how would you answer whiteshepherds question . It was a good one. I think robinurta answered it but i am confused. Could there be people in america breeding wl dogs that would not pass the sv tests or have bad temperaments?


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> This. People in America breeding working line dogs are either breeding dogs imported from Germany, or dogs of recent German ancestry.


thanks , Do you think that there could possibly be a new line coming out american working line (dogs are akc registered parents are ancestors of wl german dogs but have never been tested for sv) ok i am getting tired , my mind is really wandering now.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> Could there be people in america breeding wl dogs that would not pass the sv tests or have bad temperaments?


Sure, absolutely. This being America, you're free to do what you want. Just because a dog is dark sable and has "Vom Whatshisnuts" after its name doesn't mean it's a solid dog with a good temperament. That's why it's important to buy from a breeder that works their dogs, and not one who's just breeding working line dog A to working line dog B to sell working line puppies.


----------



## horsegirl

Emoore said:


> Sure, absolutely. This being America, you're free to do what you want. Just because a dog is dark sable and has "Vom Whatshisnuts" after its name doesn't mean it's a solid dog with a good temperament. That's why it's important to buy from a breeder that works their dogs, and not one who's just breeding working line dog A to working line dog B to sell working line puppies.


all that and i am finally satisfied, wow imagine what i am like to live with LOL. I worry about that happening. have a great night everyone -- thanks for the talk !! I learned a bunch.


----------



## horsegirl

horsegirl said:


> all that and i am finally satisfied, wow imagine what i am like to live with LOL. I worry about that happening. have a great night everyone -- thanks for the talk !! I learned a bunch.


oh one more thing -- I feel the exact same way about my ASL dogs. too many people are giving them a bad name , not enough work being done by the breeders.


----------



## Emoore

horsegirl said:


> oh one more thing -- I feel the exact same way about my ASL dogs. too many people are giving them a bad name , not enough work being done by the breeders.


Agreed. There are ASL breeders who participate in herding, obedience, rally, agility, etc with their dogs. I have mucho respect for them. The ones breeding show dog A to show dog B to get show dog puppies? Not so much.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Can someone link me up with reputable ASL breeders who consistently produce dogs with reliable temperaments?


----------



## Emoore

Jo Ellen said:


> Can someone link me up with reputable ASL breeders who consistently produce dogs with reliable temperaments?


Off the top of my head I know Daphne, "Andaka" on this forum, does that. If you shoot her a PM she can probably refer you to someone in your area who does. I think she's in IL. She breeds ASL dogs but also competes with them in other venues like I mentioned before. Her dogs are beautiful, moderate (not severely angulated) examples of show line dogs.


----------



## Catu

horsegirl said:


> the worst person is someone who walks by a blind man stumbling and doesn't help , just laughs or treats them like they are less than, and thinks they are actually one of the good guys


You are the one who said you didn't need to see because you were in USA...


----------



## carmspack

wolfstraum said:


> It is all about odds....I have seen good companion dogs from BYB - heck, I had a black and silver dog who did the whole Sch3 routine happily.....as long as you did not hit her with a stick! Environmental and social nerves great - but would not take a stick hit....so not 100% -
> 
> I have started and deleted this over and over again....my observations are not popular...but I can cite example after example, and it is my honest conclusion.
> 
> The odds of getting the dog you want, non problematic, IMO !!!!, are best wtih the Euro working lines from a proven breeder of same....that there are such dogs in other 'type' are attested to by some here....one of the most nervy, pathetically sad to see, dogs I have EVER seen in my life was an extreme ASL from a kennel on a cited link....all I kept hearing was how she moved - the poor pups I saw from a GV and her were heartbreakingly fearful...so what good was that movement??? I know I generate some resentment for my comments - and yes, there may be solid dogs out there with CH all through their pedigrees - but they are not the norm! Yes, there are nervy Euro lined dogs, but they are not the norm either!!!! Unfortunately, breeders of all types get hung up on something - movement, color, grip, reach, croup, heads, ears, (lol - I look at feet first - horseman's reaction!) but unfortunately too many sacrifice balance and temperament when trying to breed for cosmetic characteristics as their priority. .they continue to pay lip service to "balance" and temperament, while in reality, deluding themselves into ignoring those characteristics to achieve their goals of type/movement.
> 
> Form follows function - function for a working breed is working...herding in of and for itself is only a small facet of the work the GSD is capable of - narcotics detection, patrol, explosive detection, heck - even bedbug and currency detection dogs are functions for which the GSD is commonly used...and I would guess 95%+ of those working ARE Euro WL dogs....and a balanced WL dog is still just as good a companion dog as a working dog.
> 
> Lee


 
seconding Lee . I have spent a lot of time in the obedience arena (way back) and even went through the judges apprenticeship doing sanction matches . Even in the early 80's GSD were disappearing from obedience trials . As a handler of ASL I know , from the other side, what the problems were . 
Look at how people isolate bits and parts of a dog . When Lee "ms wolfstraum" announced that she was going to breed to a czech origin dog that she liked there were comments about the grip . You breed for the total dog , the total balance of function , not just the grip . 
The dogs that are working are still of european "working" origin because they make an effort to maintain the drives and character , as Lee said .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

trudy said:


> Lee I can sure tell what you breed....and you forgot cancer identification, autism dogs, etc...oh yeah and the unspecialized masses that help families in many forms,the many in the news for chasing off wild life, intruders, that get help for injured and ill family members...yep the breed is very good at so many things and the funny part are the high numbers that are the black and tans....hhhmmm...not many WL black and tans.....


please do tell what and where these numerous dogs are coming from. Having spent the better part of the day with a person who trains and certifies cancer detection dogs I know they need drive . Because a job appears soft or casual does not mean the dog is lacking strong drive .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## trudy

Ok since there seems to be so much more respect for the German idea that only dogs with titles, good hips etc are bred and the controls they have there, then why is it that the police have announced that they will no longer use German Shepherds in Germany but Belgian Shepherds, Malinois variety. A breed that has never had these requirements??

And when people are thrilled with DDR and Czech dogs and their work ethic, lets explain that they were the communist dogs, bred away from any herding ideals but used to attack people for real that tried to escape the countries. And perhaps these harder dogs who have been bred for generations to bite people may actually cause the breed to have a bad name when in the wrong hands..

So how come at German type shows the judge has a copy of the dogs pedigree?? Why is it that a very nice dog with 1/2 and 1/2 the judge can ask the handler if it comes from a mix, then immediately move it to last and never look at it again, yet it is a real nice dog of very good type and temperment? How come the dogs from the judge's kennel and line can be shown under them?? How come if the sleeve is dropped the dog goes after the sleeve, not the person?? Why do you have to hit the dog with a stick that makes noise like a clicker yet is very light?? How does that show courage?? 

I personally would like to see a combine of the types, I don't like the extremes on any type. I would like to see braver, more sturdy dogs in the show ring. I don't like judges that ignore a different type and follow the trend. The best dog should be the best dog, and there should be critiques that say why they picked how they picked and why. Then it might be the dog looked at instead of the handler. 

And for the average family a GSL/ASL mix might be perfect, get rid of the extremes, have solid bodies, great heads, but nice backs and strong rears. Lets not need to tape ears, wrap in some vest so they aren't scared of thunder, and confident enough to stay with the owner if there is a threat, that they won't go lay in some other room or crate when someone comes.

And no I didn't tape ears, mine are not afraid of thunder of visitors, and we have strong heads and temperments, and I am just saying I know it can be hard to get all in one ASL package, I have seen the crap and I have seen lots of really good, and I can tell the difference.


----------



## trudy

Lee I know you need drive, I know this is a hard job, I just feel there are lots of great dogs of all varieties of the breed and I feel there should be 1 variety, that we should all breed together to make the perfect dog, the perfect dog will have drives but be able to lay quietly in a crowd without being on edge, that he/she will be beautiful structurally, and impressive. That when called upon will do any job asked to the best of his ability and that ability will be best in the dog world. That the respect the breed once had would be back. That instead of worrying about breed bans and being unable to get insurance that the companies and people will be thrilled to know a GS has moved into the neighborhood. That the dog will be welcome anywhere and the brain and stability be the norm, not the exception. That would be my perfect outcome...oh yeah and NO indiscriminate breedings of garbage


----------



## cliffson1

Have you ever seen people who argue passionately about things that they have little knowledge? Do you engage them with facts or let them live in ignorant bliss....Just asking? 
The different lines have evolved into specimens that relect the priorities and knowlegebase of the breeders. That is not an indictment of any line. The problem becomes when you compare the result with the "standard" that the breed is supposed to reflect. Different lines have had major deviations in types and character from this standard. In the purebred world there are working dogs and show dogs. Where you place your priorties is what defines you regardless of lines or country of origin. Fifty years ago the breed was a working dog and bred with an emphasis on working traits with show dogs coming from these breedings. Today the breed is a show dog that the breeders are trying to add working qualities. You can't maintain a working dog with the tail waggin the dog. 
This is the state of the breed today...the problem is Joe average thinks of the breed from history/legacy and have a certain mindset, then they see more dogs these days that don't reflect this type and have become disillusioned. 
The American lines used to be robust and strong in the United States when breeders bred for maintaining the dog as a strong working dog. When I was a kid in the fifties I never SAW German Shepherds that were shy and fearful and had tails tucked under their bellies.....and these were American bred. Today far too often you see this from American lines....now the question is do American breeders acknowledge this and bring in blood to correct it, or do they continue to produce this product and label anyone that brings this point up as a "basher". The problem isn't the bashers, the problem is their are so many of these dogs lacking character, that the public does not view them as true representatives of the breed and the few breeders that ARE breeding sound AL is not enough to change this occurrence. This will not change until acknowledgement and active actions outside the current lines are incorporated, blasting people who speak on what everyone else is seeing is only going to keep things the same.


----------



## wolfstraum

The problem in the GSD today in the US is that the AKC has NO REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING!!! Anyone can breed anythign with papers and get AKC pups. 

The judge does not normally have pedigrees in hand while judging. He will examine the papers at the Koer, after the measurements in my experience, and discuss with the owner breeding possiblities or restrictions...remarking on the pedigree and how the dog relates to it (at least Herr Scheld will if you are attentive to him during this part of the koer)

We all "feel" that things "must be" - but if you do not go out and see it your self, over and over, do not get angry at those who do! It is not "bashing" - in fact, it makes me sad to see the deterioritation in temperament and character this breed is subject to today! I, like Cliff, remember as a child seeing wonderful GSDs...sturdy dogs of substance and character....I have gone to AKC shows for years and years, I have competed in AKC obedience...I watch the breed ring. I have friends who show sucessfully in other breeds (Beagles, Viszlas, GSP etc) I know the "feeling" at the AKC shows about the GSD ring from other exhibitors, from spectators...the majority of people I meet lament the look and temperament being exhibited...this is not my "opinion" - it is my experience and fact. 

Trudy - the dog you speak of??? It is produced here - I produce it, Carmen produces it, Triton produced it, maybe Cliff produces it (not sure if his do the AKC stuff)....and so do others...the dog who can do AKC OB, Agility, Flyball, Dock Diving, Schutzhund, SAR, LE...and be a stable companion dog as well. There is a major Flyball International Championship next month - Fyurie v Wolfstraum will be running - he is also narcotics trained - he has 2 Schutzhund titled littermates, Errow, his earlier brother is Sch2, KKL1 and FBX (think that is the right initials) who could be running then too, but it conflicts with the Sch3 plan....the LE dog in New England who was recently written up for finding a huge drug cache at the border is the devoted and protective companion of his handlers 4 year old - he has 2 Schutzhund titled littermates (with AKC credentials as well) - I can cite all my litters, and litters FROM dogs from my breeding, with similar credentials...Flyball, Agility, Obedience, CGCs, OFAs/'a' stamps, Schutzhund 1 -3, Ob/TR/WH, Koers, SAR, Therapy dogs...if it is doable, it is being done by WL dogs who are tested and credentialed.

So when I post - when some of the others post - we have a basis of experience and love for the breed that drives our posts. And sadness at the state of the breed because of greed and ignorance.

Lee


----------



## Vandal

I guess the answer to Trudy is....the show ring is about the worst thing that can happen to any breed. Used to be that judge had the pedigree because, in Germany, he was there to guide the breeders and steer the breed in the right direction. Now, maybe that pedigree is more a political guide. The whole thing has been turned on it's head because people seem to get stuck on appearances. They want things to look a certain way when the reality is a completely different story. It is the same in SchH now where dogs "look" like they will protect when they won't at all. It's the Hollywood factor I guess. 

I am not so sure WL breeders will be able to claim dominance in the temperament category much longer. Sure, that has been the case for years but times are changing . As I have said before, but will repeat anyway, many have not seen a GSD that is really displaying proper temperament. In reality, I think those dogs were never a dime a dozen but they are much less common nowadays. As usual, the culprit is nerve strength . There is simply a lack of courage in many of the dogs now. Yes, even the WLs. The compensating factor for WLs is drive . Not going to talk about that again but I think overall, many people are kind of blinded by their allegiance to certain bloodlines. Everything nowadays seems to be about splitting everything and everyone into conflicting camps. Not sure that's going to change, works too well for people who have something to sell and I am not just talking about dog people.

Since I have boarding and training kennel here and see lots of GSDs, I can say I have seen good dogs from all lines. Many of those better dogs were bred by the dreaded "BYB" . The German show dogs of years past, ( 1980 on), were not bad dogs, although there was always a little something missing but there was less missing than there is nowadays, that's for sure. The American line dogs that I have seen, ( I have not seen many lately though), were usually protective but lacked the nerve to back it up. When I say protective, I mean protective. Not protective like SchH people think of it where is is more about chasing, ( which IMO is not correct). Still, the ASL dogs were very loyal dogs to their owners and many that I have helped train were quite good in obedience because of that loyalty and pack drive. Of course, there were others who were completely unstable.

The German Show line dogs have gone thru many changes in the last thirty years. I remember them as being more like WLs but some were REALLY tough to train. A weird level of hardness, (or maybe resistance is a better way to put it), in those old SL dogs where they would simply not respond to corrections. That behavior some years later then morphed into a situation where they would shut down completely with a correction. Same refusal to comply but now mixed in with something else that made training them simply unpleasant. At the same time, in protection, during the late 80s early 90s, they were mostly lacking any kind of aggression or fight drive. They could only seem to manage training that involved lots of prey work but they didn't show a lot of heart...didn't care enough about the sleeve to fight for it and certainly not enough to fight the man. Made training them very difficult. Now, I am seeing more with aggression, ( but it is not a protective instinct I am seeing), but the nerves are not there to support it and the courage is lacking. We will see how the breeders go about fixing that, ( if they even care to), because for all the lines, as I have said before, nerve strength is the issue. Where people are going to go to compensate, I don't know. Many are too fixated on achieving certain goals and that works against repairing the problems. 

The WLs have changed quite a bit as well. Especially in the last ten years. Nerves are sufficient for the type of "testing" that is going on now but maybe not strong enough for working in a way that involves aggression or enough to support a real protective instinct. It is one thing to have a dog who is crazy for a ball or the sleeve be less stellar in the nerve dept, ( although you will still see the result of that), but when you add lines known for aggression to lines with less than strong nerves, look out. That's when things get dangerous and IMO, is a place we are at headed with the WLs. No, not all of them, of course not. But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding. They are going to lines that bark better but maybe not recognizing what is fueling that barking. There are very good dogs who bark but there are dogs who bark for "other " reasons. We also still have the screamers in the WLs. I think the dogs with Fero in there need a certain kind of breeding partner. There are certainly lines I would avoid mixing with that but I do see lots of people breeding combinations that make me wonder what they are thinking. So, we will see where that leads.

Oh and about the Police. You have to consider that about 97% of the dogs in Germany are show line dogs.


----------



## Vandal

Speaking of appearances.......this is a video of the 2011 VA 1 dog's progeny. This is in 2010. I personally, find these dogs to be simply grotesque. The structure and movement is so disturbing, it makes me wonder what they are putting in the beer at that event, ( because alcohol would not be enough). You'd have to be more than just drunk to applaud for these dogs or their sire.


----------



## wolfstraum

I think they are all on the verge of ...... going potty????? 

Lee


----------



## Vandal

I'll give the ASL breeders some credit. Their dogs fits the appearance standard more than the German show dogs. There is something VERY wrong happening there. The idea that those dogs are put on display, for the world to see, is simply shocking to me. 

I was talking to a lady the other day who had gone to see dogs bred by the local big name show breeder. She mentioned the back of his dogs, whereupon, he physically lifted the rear end of the dog she was looking at in hopes she would approve. lol. 

Edited to add: As I have said in the past, it is intersting listening to people who nothing about the breed. They seem to know more than the SL breeders do about structure.
Oh and yes, I think there are really ugly WL dogs too, before anyone thinks I am saying that. Just that they are not put on display as being correct in structure. I do fear for the WLs because some are starting to resemble the SL dogs.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Vandal said:


> German show dogs. There is something VERY wrong happening there. The idea that those dogs are put on display, for the world to see, is simply shocking to me.


Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?


----------



## MicheleMarie

horsegirl said:


> yes lets not become twisted (a little late for some I think) -- the op likes asl dogs, we should be helping them , by providing the best information we have, the best way to find responsible breeders. Again of course this has become something of a my lines are the best and there is no merit to any other line post. Every day I read the same crap , it all reads blah blah blah to me. I am not knowledgeable as some so please tell me , when was schautzund (sp) started , what year ? Does the breed standard say a GSD must bite a sleeve, or be ok getting hit with a stick to be deemed worthy? please help me to understand. Is the op ready for the crazyness of some wl dog? How about letting them know what the downsides are with the wl dogs , come on there must be some downfalls with the "perfect" gsd line. LOL LOL----


yes. every single german shepherd dog should be able to get titled in Schutzhund 1. That IS the breed standard. Dogs in Germany no matter what lines they have are not eligible to breed until that is completed (plus many other things).
I don't think there is a "perfect" line and i think you can get crazies on both sides. I do know a girl that got a ASL dog from a place i looked at when i was looking around for a breeder. I opted not to go with them just because i didn't like the people. i later discovered WL dogs and breeders invited me to their clubs-i was hooked! i ended up getting a wgwl dog. my dog is stable, temperpent IS perfect, he has an off switch and he's easy to handle. the girl that got the puppy from the other place's is absolutely insane. is it the breeders fault? maybe but it could also be her fault. there are WAY too many factors in here.


----------



## MicheleMarie

Whiteshepherds said:


> Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?


**shutters** ugh i hate those. it makes my back hurt lol

this is a great video:


----------



## MicheleMarie

Vandal said:


> 2010 SV BSZS NKGR part 8 Remo von Fichtenschlag HD - YouTube
> 
> 
> Speaking of appearances.......this is a video of the 2011 VA 1 dog's progeny. This is in 2010. I personally, find these dogs to be simply grotesque. The structure and movement is so disturbing, it makes me wonder what they are putting in the beer at that event, ( because alcohol would not be enough). You'd have to be more than just drunk to applaud for these dogs or their sire.


eek. i could only watch about 5 seconds-it hurt my eyes :/

for showlines i DO like the appearance of ASL dogs way better too.


----------



## carmspack

trudy said:


> Ok since there seems to be so much more respect for the German idea that only dogs with titles, good hips etc are bred and the controls they have there, then why is it that the police have announced that they will no longer use German Shepherds in Germany but Belgian Shepherds, Malinois variety. A breed that has never had these requirements??
> 
> xxxx very good questions. The SV seems to have done everything in its power, since the administration of the Martin stronghold to alienate and diminish the efforts of working lines , unless it is to sit on the coat tails and benefit from the positive press , the legend , the back history.
> Regard the BSZS , a jugernaut for tourism , and income from exporting dogs , which has separated itself from BSP , giving little attention , promotion and even different dates and location for the main yearly national working trials, and offended the IDM police trial participants , "the police dogs" which bring renown to the breed even worse situtations.
> There are articles from the director of the Nordrhein-Westfalen State Police which address the difficulties in getting good dogs for police service in numbers , precisely because the majority of breeders are showline , and they do not focus on work . That is why. The GSD is bred to market dictates, a black and red dog . The popularity is killing it .
> The malinois is not saddled with a seemingly unending market place that will take anything as well as .... I've had those calls and letters , black and red , may be superficial , but want black and red even at the expense of temperament (which they think they insert and provide) .
> But the malinois had other issues which are based on the cosmetics of coat type and colour , right back to the day of von Stephanitz and well discussed in his tome.
> Belgian dogs trial under KNPV.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> And when people are thrilled with DDR and Czech dogs and their work ethic, lets explain that they were the communist dogs, bred away from any herding ideals but used to attack people for real that tried to escape the countries. And perhaps these harder dogs who have been bred for generations to bite people may actually cause the breed to have a bad name when in the wrong hands..
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well yes and no . There are many references to mass importation of a "certain" type of dog going - east , Russia way . You have to remember that the map of europe has been redrawn several times. Part of "east" were parts of Germany , parts of the great Austro-Hungarian empire, Bohemia etc. All these different regions clung on to their particular habits and preferences and needs of utility in the type of herding that they had. There was more than one method depending on whether near urban areas , pre and post harvest, or whether used in part of the great yearly migrations into better pasture "transhumance" . All the regional types were permitted to merge as long as the PURPOSE , function , work needs were the same . This is why we get the occasional wiry coat, the occasional wavy coat, difference in head , bone , working style within the breed . Some drove, some contained, some protected .
> It 's all well documented in the von Stephanitz book.
> Page 165 which is a continuation of a list of dogs going to Finland, Russia , including Poland the demand for the dogs was considerable even before the War. The book was published 1925 , so we are talking pre 1914 . "They were imported into Russia in large numbers as SERVICE dogs, and "the Imperial Hunting Society regulated the Exhibitions " "In Finland, they have recently begun to employ the German shepherds dog in Police Service . The two Police dog Societies of Sweden "The Swedish Police and Protection dog Society ( Svenska Polis-och-Skyddhundsforingen), ...... "the Society of Swedish Protection and Red Cross dogs" .... at Stockholm will use none but our dogs in their service.
> So far as shepherd dgos may be used with the sheep in Switzerland, most of these have been imported from Wurtemburg ......... etc etc.
> 
> Right from the outset dogs of a particular type were selected to serve in these countries as service and police dogs. There are within the four pillar regions (Swabian) a strain whose specialty was protection - hunt .
> So the dogs going into these countries were not bred away from herding , they already served a different function right from the beginning .
> The GSD is a very complicated collection of genetics.
> This is why I have often said that the Czech dogs definitely serve a purpose , character, hardness in confrontation that are valuable attributes. I would not categorize them in the "genetic obedience" vein as we have been discussing in herding dogs .
> They are not communist . Dogs don't hold cards to political parties.
> They continue to be what they were , without as much interference for mass market and pet appeal -- until recently . Hope it does not spoil things.
> 
> ---------------------------
> large portion left out for someone else to address
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

Vandal that was horrible . Those dogs can't put their head down to track, their hind feet would be in the air. 
I saw the bitches youtubey #2 and #3 you could see the panic in the running away --- legs going so fast like little egg beaters , could be put into a vat of cream and soon you would have frothy whippped cream.
the emporer is naked .


----------



## carmspack

I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS 

watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!! 
Far cry from now.

The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".

Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
Now they do little or almost nothing.

THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## MicheleMarie

carmspack said:


> I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS
> 
> watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!!
> Far cry from now.
> 
> The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".
> 
> Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
> Now they do little or almost nothing.
> 
> THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


that was great carmen <3 ill have to look that up as well, thanks!


----------



## Freestep

Whiteshepherds said:


> Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?


The way it was explained to me--and this may be a load of horse puckey for all I know--is that a dog's back tends naturally to sag over time. Having a slight arch to the back is more structurally sound because it mitigates this sagging as the dog ages. So even though it might look weird to most people, it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any problems, and in fact helps the dog's structure stand up over time.

I am not sure if I buy that, but it's what I was told. To me, the roach back is not appealing and it seems artificial--if it doesn't hurt that dog, however, I can't say it's the worst thing. Whether it benefits the dogs remains to be seen, I suppose. How long do these roach-backed dogs live, and what is their working lifespan? What do they look like when they get older? Do they have skeletal problems related to the arched back? What I'd really love to see is a lineup of 10 year old dogs that had roached backs when they were 2.


----------



## Jack's Dad

The dogs in the video Vandal posted are working. They are working very hard to keep their ass off the ground. Sad that that is admired and bred for.


----------



## PaddyD

Whiteshepherds said:


> Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?


*WHAT!? * Someone agrees with me? 
Somewhere, somehow there is some strange shi+ happening.


----------



## horsegirl

Catu said:


> You are the one who said you didn't need to see because you were in USA...


see what?


----------



## horsegirl

Vandal said:


> I guess the answer to Trudy is....the show ring is about the worst thing that can happen to any breed. Used to be that judge had the pedigree because, in Germany, he was there to guide the breeders and steer the breed in the right direction. Now, maybe that pedigree is more a political guide. The whole thing has been turned on it's head because people seem to get stuck on appearances. They want things to look a certain way when the reality is a completely different story. It is the same in SchH now where dogs "look" like they will protect when they won't at all. It's the Hollywood factor I guess.
> 
> I am not so sure WL breeders will be able to claim dominance in the temperament category much longer. Sure, that has been the case for years but times are changing . As I have said before, but will repeat anyway, many have not seen a GSD that is really displaying proper temperament. In reality, I think those dogs were never a dime a dozen but they are much less common nowadays. As usual, the culprit is nerve strength . There is simply a lack of courage in many of the dogs now. Yes, even the WLs. The compensating factor for WLs is drive . Not going to talk about that again but I think overall, many people are kind of blinded by their allegiance to certain bloodlines. Everything nowadays seems to be about splitting everything and everyone into conflicting camps. Not sure that's going to change, works too well for people who have something to sell and I am not just talking about dog people.
> 
> Since I have boarding and training kennel here and see lots of GSDs, I can say I have seen good dogs from all lines. Many of those better dogs were bred by the dreaded "BYB" . The German show dogs of years past, ( 1980 on), were not bad dogs, although there was always a little something missing but there was less missing than there is nowadays, that's for sure. The American line dogs that I have seen, ( I have not seen many lately though), were usually protective but lacked the nerve to back it up. When I say protective, I mean protective. Not protective like SchH people think of it where is is more about chasing, ( which IMO is not correct). Still, the ASL dogs were very loyal dogs to their owners and many that I have helped train were quite good in obedience because of that loyalty and pack drive. Of course, there were others who were completely unstable.
> 
> The German Show line dogs have gone thru many changes in the last thirty years. I remember them as being more like WLs but some were REALLY tough to train. A weird level of hardness, (or maybe resistance is a better way to put it), in those old SL dogs where they would simply not respond to corrections. That behavior some years later then morphed into a situation where they would shut down completely with a correction. Same refusal to comply but now mixed in with something else that made training them simply unpleasant. At the same time, in protection, during the late 80s early 90s, they were mostly lacking any kind of aggression or fight drive. They could only seem to manage training that involved lots of prey work but they didn't show a lot of heart...didn't care enough about the sleeve to fight for it and certainly not enough to fight the man. Made training them very difficult. Now, I am seeing more with aggression, ( but it is not a protective instinct I am seeing), but the nerves are not there to support it and the courage is lacking. We will see how the breeders go about fixing that, ( if they even care to), because for all the lines, as I have said before, nerve strength is the issue. Where people are going to go to compensate, I don't know. Many are too fixated on achieving certain goals and that works against repairing the problems.
> 
> The WLs have changed quite a bit as well. Especially in the last ten years. Nerves are sufficient for the type of "testing" that is going on now but maybe not strong enough for working in a way that involves aggression or enough to support a real protective instinct. It is one thing to have a dog who is crazy for a ball or the sleeve be less stellar in the nerve dept, ( although you will still see the result of that), but when you add lines known for aggression to lines with less than strong nerves, look out. That's when things get dangerous and IMO, is a place we are at headed with the WLs. No, not all of them, of course not. But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding. They are going to lines that bark better but maybe not recognizing what is fueling that barking. There are very good dogs who bark but there are dogs who bark for "other " reasons. We also still have the screamers in the WLs. I think the dogs with Fero in there need a certain kind of breeding partner. There are certainly lines I would avoid mixing with that but I do see lots of people breeding combinations that make me wonder what they are thinking. So, we will see where that leads.
> 
> Oh and about the Police. You have to consider that about 97% of the dogs in Germany are show line dogs.


great post !!


----------



## lhczth

Freestep said:


> The way it was explained to me--and this may be a load of horse puckey for all I know--is that a dog's back tends naturally to sag over time. Having a slight arch to the back is more structurally sound because it mitigates this sagging as the dog ages. So even though it might look weird to most people, it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any problems, and in fact helps the dog's structure stand up over time.


Wow, first time I have ever heard that excuse and I have heard a lot of them.


----------



## trudy

Thank you to all responses since my last post, what great info and thoughtful responses. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed. 

I want the dog that used to be the correct dog. I love my 2, I love their conformation. To me they are correct, with Gemma having better but neither extreme and heavy yet not over sized. Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL. 

In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought. 

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog, and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat. 

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all. 

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK


----------



## Liesje

trudy said:


> I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.


And I'd prefer the dog spat it out and told the helper in dog language to get the eff off our field, tehe.


----------



## Vandal

I've seen some very nice looking working line dogs and then some others that are kind of .....well....boring, plain, not well built and gray. However, it is kind of rare to see a WL that looks like dogs from the 1920's. I hear people making this claim and saying that's what WL breeders like. I think that is basically a bunch of BS. There are some who simply ignore structure, I have talked to those types but for me, they are not really serious breeders. You really should not be ignoring one thing over the other. 

There was a time when the structure of both types was looking pretty decent. I would say that was in the 60s, 70s and even a bit into the 80s. Then, in the 90's for whatever reason, things starting kind of going bonkers. That's when the midnight trial dogs started showing up and the SchH rules started being played around with. I think the reed stick was gone before the 90s, can't recall exactly when that went. Then the attack out of the blind was gone. I think when you have decent working dogs, you kind of discount or take for granted how much of a test the real attack on the handler exercise is....No, not the one they do at the Sieger Show...lol. I have worked dogs who could see that helper run out a thousand times and it would still startle the crap out of them. That for me, was a real eye opener when I first started seeing that happening with the show dogs. I had never seen it with the WLs. After that, the WL judges started awarding very high scores to dogs that were simply average at best in protection work. It was more about correctness than it was about what kind of dog was on the field. I mean correctness both as far as how "correctly" the dogs did the exercises but also politically correct. The judges critique was much less about the DOGS and more about point deductions. 

While this was going on, many dogs, who would have been considered nothing special a decade or two earlier, were now the cat's meow as far as breeding was concerned. I remember the the blank stares when I mentioned the lack of power in the dogs at the North Amercian SchH Championship held out here in the early part of the last decade. It had not really occurred to many people what was going on. The way the dogs were performing was the norm and people got used to it. 
Just like those show dogs in the video......two decades ago, dogs that looked like that would have never made it into a Sieger Show, much less be used as a demonstration of why a dog should become SIEGER! Holy cow. 

Like Carmen said a while back. They even make Dog Show logos from an image of a dog displaying an absolutely incorrect gait. They are changing the way people think by doing these things. Pretty easy to do actually, especially when so many people have no point of reference to compare with.

People think some of us just live in the past. The past is important because what we have now is just far less, ( with all the types), than it used to be. It's a big mess that, IMO, will be very hard to fix.


----------



## Freestep

Liesje said:


> And I'd prefer the dog spat it out and told the helper in dog language to get the eff off our field, tehe.


Haha! My Luka will run around in a circle, bring the sleeve back to the helper, and hit him with it.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Vandal said:


> But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding.


I don't understand this. Silent guarding? Is this a good thing? What is it?


----------



## carmspack

[
. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed. 

xxxxxxxxxx well actually Victorian , Edwardian pre war history is fascinating whether you read Queen Victoria's Gene , or Paris 1919 ,6 months that changed the World , family feuds with Victoria an Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas -- the reigning family had gone under the name Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha -- until around 1917 when the family name became WINDSOR. A separation of the germanic roots . So it was with the dog , the GSD , no longer to be linked to Germany , was renamed the Alsation (Alsation wolf dog) even though the region Alsace- Lorraine had been tossed back and forth between Germany and France. I told you the map of Europe got redrawn many times. The aftermath of the Treaty of Versailles set the stage for the conflict of WW11 and all the tension in the mid east. 


Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL. 

xxxxxxxxx don't breed according to where the dog is from , you must understand the genetics of the dog , it's genetic origins. If this Gemma is an ASL you have to do some research to see that ASL and GSL basically come from the same family line and there may not be improved for temperament at all . You may end up with fear aggression , or lack of a nerve base. I think Anne the Vandal covered this well. 


In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

xxxxxx but some dogs don't even get to first base 
How would your dogs do?


I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought. 

xxxxxxxxx same thing - prey , play , either of your two scenarios

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog, 

xxxxxxx go back and see what the dogs looked like that ran 3 hours to a trial , competed, ran 3 hours back and then went back to work ---
Form for function. Like a nice looking show that gives you hammer toes , heel spurs , cramps in your legs -- not functional . Von Stephanitz has volumes to say on priorities for work. 
The breed is working dog .


and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat. 

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all. 

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK[/QUOTE]

xxxxxxxx comment on your last sentence -- only if you don't need the dog for your livelihood - if you did no matter where you lived, you would be more critical and demand something that was helpful to you . 

Carmen


----------



## Andaka

Emoore said:


> Off the top of my head I know Daphne, "Andaka" on this forum, does that. If you shoot her a PM she can probably refer you to someone in your area who does. I think she's in IL. She breeds ASL dogs but also competes with them in other venues like I mentioned before. Her dogs are beautiful, moderate (not severely angulated) examples of show line dogs.


thanks, Emoore for the compliment. I have no plans for pups in the imediate future, but I did post some breeders in this thread that are in PA.


----------



## carmspack

I can't seem to locate the youtubey of the 2010 sieger show results showed V3 moving with feet going so fast underneath it that -- wait for it -- image came to me while driving --- a SHRIMP - so much motion you can't count the feet.
Look at this 



 
or this one 



 do they see the dogs pacing


----------



## fuzzybunny

PaddyD said:


> *WHAT!? * Someone agrees with me?
> Somewhere, somehow there is some strange shi+ happening.


I agree with you. I do not like the look of a single dog in the videos above me. Their backs look strange to me. I'm going to have to seriously reconsider what I thought I wanted in my next dog. I was leaning towards GSL but now I'm thinking working lines. Are those dogs above representative of what the backs will look like for a showline? If so, I'm going to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Andaka said:


> thanks, Emoore for the compliment. I have no plans for pups in the imediate future, but I did post some breeders in this thread that are in PA.


Bookmarked. Thank you, Andaka. Beautiful dogs in both kennels, I especially like the one in NY.


----------



## Liesje

fuzzybunny said:


> I agree with you. I do not like the look of a single dog in the videos above me. Their backs look strange to me. I'm going to have to seriously reconsider what I thought I wanted in my next dog. I was leaning towards GSL but now I'm thinking working lines. Are those dogs above representative of what the backs will look like for a showline? If so, I'm going to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction.


I don't like the video either but PLEASE don't paint an entire type based on one video of a few dog's progeny who happens to be a top/extreme example. Also you have to consider how these dogs are shown, it exaggerates certain aspects that people like/don't like about these dogs. They keep a tighter lead with the collar very loose and low and want to see the dog really digging in with their rear. I am not excusing the dogs or arguing that how they are shown can change or mask their conformation, I'm just saying you have to take all this into consideration. It would be just as extreme as the conformation being shown to write off an entire type of dog just based on this one clip. There are a lot of people on this forum with WGSL dogs and most of them do not look or move like the dogs on that video.


----------



## fuzzybunny

Liesje said:


> I don't like the video either but PLEASE don't paint an entire type based on one video of a few dog's progeny who happens to be a top/extreme example. Also you have to consider how these dogs are shown, it exaggerates certain aspects that people like/don't like about these dogs. They keep a tighter lead with the collar very loose and low and want to see the dog really digging in with their rear. I am not excusing the dogs or arguing that how they are shown can change or mask their conformation, I'm just saying you have to take all this into consideration. It would be just as extreme as the conformation being shown to write off an entire type of dog just based on this one clip. There are a lot of people on this forum with WGSL dogs and most of them do not look or move like the dogs on that video.


So they're not representative then of all GSL? Will different breeders be producing different degrees of angulation? I initially was drawn to the GSL because they look more muscular with bigger heads and their temperaments sound like what I want. I prefer a straighter back though.


----------



## PaddyD

Liesje said:


> I don't like the video either but PLEASE don't paint an entire type based on one video of a few dog's progeny who happens to be a top/extreme example. Also you have to consider how these dogs are shown, it exaggerates certain aspects that people like/don't like about these dogs. They keep a tighter lead with the collar very loose and low and want to see the dog really digging in with their rear. I am not excusing the dogs or arguing that how they are shown can change or mask their conformation, I'm just saying you have to take all this into consideration. It would be just as extreme as the conformation being shown to write off an entire type of dog just based on this one clip. There are a lot of people on this forum with WGSL dogs and most of them do not look or move like the dogs on that video.


The video is of show dogs and they are the ones that are meant to represent the breed. They are the ones that breeders are (probably) aspiring to emulate. THAT is why it is offensive (to me). If these dogs are the 'winners' then it is likely that we will see more of them and the breed will move in that direction. Otherwise, why are they being put forth as the best GSD examples?
scary


----------



## Nelly

Freestep said:


> The way it was explained to me--and this may be a load of horse puckey for all I know--is that a dog's back tends naturally to sag over time. Having a slight arch to the back is more structurally sound because it mitigates this sagging as the dog ages. So even though it might look weird to most people, it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any problems, and in fact helps the dog's structure stand up over time.


 I am not so sure about that, the whole back section looks more than a little unco- watch them running, jumping 

This kind of exaggeration is much in the same frame as what people have done to other breeds, though in the form of distorting different features, by taking a fad to far (such as bulldogs with no face ect). As a now past shepherd once said in an interview, they wouldn't be able to survive- nature's mistakes = trophy winners in our show ring.

The jury is still out with regards to how much damage has been done to the dogs, for sure it is not just harmless.

http://www.gsdcouncilaustralia.org/louis_donald_article.pdf

The above is a link to an article by an Australian Specialist judge on structure in the German showlines.

scroll to page 12 re changes in the description of the topline
21 re changes in the topline of dogs from 70's onwards.


Katie


----------



## Emoore

fuzzybunny said:


> Are those dogs above representative of what the backs will look like for a showline? If so, I'm going to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction.





Liesje said:


> I don't like the video either but PLEASE don't paint an entire type based on one video of a few dog's progeny who happens to be a top/extreme example. Also you have to consider how these dogs are shown, it exaggerates certain aspects that people like/don't like about these dogs.


Just want to reiterate this. I've had the opportunity to go hiking a few times with GSDAlphamom's 6 GSL dogs, and none of them are extreme like that. They're beautiful dogs that anyone would be proud to own. They also ran off-leash in the woods for hours and even her old girl was able to keep up with the young pups. It's not like GSL dogs are some type of limited cripple. As so often happens, the dogs at the top are an *extreme* cartoonish example of GSL confirmation.

I know it gets said time and time again around here, but *GO OUT AND MEET DOGS*.




Nelly said:


> I am not so sure about that, the whole back section looks more than a little unco- watch them running, jumping


Yeah, the top show winners in the world look like that. Go spend a day walking, hiking, jumping, and running with real, more moderate GSL dogs owned by real people in the real world who are doing more with their dogs than training them to run around a ring, holding a certain pose. 

I wouldn't want to own and live with the top working line SchH dogs at the BSP either.


----------



## wolfstraum

I have seen plenty of GSL dogs who are not roached back...certain lines look certain ways....I have seen them do happy work when trained certain ways....and I have seen them run off the field...

For companion dogs, I would certainly recommend them - there is a breeder in the State College area Jo Anne, who would definitely produce a dog that does not look like this and would be a good choice for temperament...Eichenhalle I think is the kennel name... 

And I know dogs who have competed at World levels in sport who ARE house dogs and who are easy to live wiht!!!

Lee


----------



## Debbieg

trudy said:


> I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner.


Why do you think Schutzhund is the only way to train? I thought it was or at least can be a good way to test what a dog is made of, but not the only way to train a dog. What about dogs that are trained to herd, be service dogs, or real high levels of obedience. They are trained without schutzhund.

I have nothing against shutzhund at all. When I got Benny I had a misconception about it but with the right club might like to try it with my next pup.


----------



## Emoore

Debbieg said:


> Why do you think Schutzhund is the only way to train? I thought it was or at least can be a good way to test what a dog is made of, but not the only way to train a dog. What about dogs that are trained to herd, be service dogs, or real high levels of obedience. They are trained without schutzhund.
> p.


No, she meas using a sleeve is the only safe way to train bitework/schutzhund, but unfortunately the sleeve becomes the focus instead of the "bad guy."


----------



## carmspack

but she wants to have the dog give the sleeve a shake and bring it to her , which indicates she does not understand the fundamentals of what the decoy work is about. Unfortunately she has lots of company . Play, Prey.

xxxx

the video of the dogs gaiting was at the BSZS , the world's eyes trained on them, the dogs to emulate , and then you have that compressed arched back pup as a result. 
I agree there can be normal gsl dogs , but they'll never make it in the limelight . So? So look how many ads there are that proclaim we only breed to top VA , top V . Those are the dogs that fetch the price, the vanity of having "one of the worlds best" , those are the ones that get bred and procreate.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Emoore

carmspack said:


> I agree there can be normal gsl dogs , but they'll never make it in the limelight . So? So look how many ads there are that proclaim we only breed to top VA , top V . Those are the dogs that fetch the price, the vanity of having "one of the worlds best" , those are the ones that get bred and procreate.


But don't you think-- and I'm just thinking out loud here, I really don't know-- that for your average GSL or ASL kennel, people buying to compete in high level shows are a fairly small portion of their business? If they didn't breed dogs that appeal to your normal active pet home, sure they might sell some high-priced dogs to the top show people, but they wouldn't sell very many dogs overall? 

When I went to the Sieger in Dallas, some of the dogs looked like the ones in the video, and some were more moderate.


----------



## Nelly

Emoore said:


> Yeah, the top show winners in the world look like that. Go spend a day walking, hiking, jumping, and running with real, more moderate GSL dogs owned by real people in the real world who are doing more with their dogs than training them to run around a ring, holding a certain pose.
> 
> I wouldn't want to own and live with the top working line SchH dogs at the BSP either.



I am talking about the general type selected by showline breeders- yeah they can vary a bit but I am not going to argue that certain features are not endemic. Roachy toplines and over angulated hind quarters are quite common traits with the showlines I see purchased as pets that come into the Veterinary Hospitals I work at. Much of the same I have seen at shows.

The point is I have never seen one that is really admirable as far as athletic ability and strength in the hind quarters (not that they don't exist- so I'm not over generalising ) compared to very moderate WLs or other working breeds.


----------



## fuzzybunny

Thanks for all the input. I'm glad to know that there are degrees of angulation and that if I do choose to go with a GSL in the future then I will likely be able to find one that appeals to me both appearance wise and temperament wise. My co-worker got a GSL and I checked out her breeder's website and her dogs don't look that angulated in comparison to the one's demonstrated in the video. That's why I was confused when I watched the video.


----------



## lhczth

When the main lines being used emulate the structure needed to win, when the bloodlines are so over run by these same lines, eventually those that don't breed for extremes will have no where to go. That look and those lines will be pretty much all you have left (unless you are willing to breed outside of the box) The same with temperament, drives, nerves, working ability, etc.


----------



## Vandal

I personally, look at dogs called German Shepherds as just that. That means if what I am looking at doesn't resemble one, or is clearly faulty, incorrect or not at all what they are /were intended to be, my comments will reflect that . If you find a German Shepherd dog that fits the standard , physical ability, temperament etc, in a show line dog, buy it! A good dog is a good dog. 

Having said that, when you have the "top" show line breeders in the WORLD, purposely ignoring what a German Shepherd Dog should look and act like, that might be something to keep in mind when you are looking. Just like there are WL breeders who think a certain type of temperament is correct because they compete in sport, formally known as Schutzhund.

I guess the trick is, and always will be, to believe you own eyes. I remember a German woman trying to tell me that the roach, hinge, whatever you want to call that , was actually correct. She didn't care who she was talking to, she simply wanted everyone reading to believe what she was saying. People will state how correct that is but never explain WHY they think it is correct. It's a "because I say so" kind of explanation. That should not be good enough for anyone, IMO. 

Mostly, people think these conversations start because other breeders are trying to change public opinion about one type of dog. It is about the German Shepherd, not your favorite type of German Shepherd. People complain about the different factions but still view it all that way. "Well MY show dog/line isn't like that" they say. Well, lots of others ARE like that but again, it is not about one line, it is about what has/is/will happen to the entire breed. 

I really believe there is no will to fix what has gone terribly wrong. The breeders in Germany are putting these dogs on display at the biggest, most prestigious dog show in the world and asking people to not believe their own eyes, or their own knowledge, about what a GSD should look and act like. If you tell a lie long enough, people will believe it. Amazing numbers of people are doing just that.


----------



## cliffson1

:thumbup:


----------



## Jo Ellen

wolfstraum said:


> For companion dogs, I would certainly recommend them - there is a breeder in the State College area Jo Anne, who would definitely produce a dog that does not look like this and would be a good choice for temperament...Eichenhalle I think is the kennel name...


State College?  I can visit, easily, that's only 25 minutes from me. Great lead, Lee, thank you!


----------



## Vandal

> They keep a tighter lead with the collar very loose and low and want to see the dog really digging in with their rear.


There is a reason the judges ask to see the dogs on a tight line and then without one. In reality, what happens to those dogs on the tight line shows just how incorrect they are. The back should not give/change/weaken like that.

From the standard:
The German Shepherd is a trotting dog. Length and angulation of front and rear legs must be in proper proportion to one another to permit the dog to move the rear leg underneath the body, matching the reach of the rear legs with that of the front legs and at the same time, *keeping the topline over the back relatively undisturbed*. Any tendency for overangulation of the rear *reduces firmness* and endurance of the dog and therefore, working capability. Correct body proportions and angulation result in a ground-covering gait which moves close to the ground and conveys the impression of effortless movement. With the head held slightly forward and the tail slightly lifted, the dog trotting *evenly and smoothly*, *we see a softly moving topline* which *flows without interruption* from neck to tail tip.


----------



## carmspack

yes Anne the Vandal , that is why I chose the youtubey that I did because almost ALL of the dogs were pacing and that is the default movement when the dog is exhausted .
Only a few at the near end of the video show continued trotting -- not only near end of the video , near end in the order of placement also.

Forum members Kessy Waldwinkel ran longer and harder in the youtubey she provided and the dog was efficient and fit . Good example. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

hi .no knowledge here about breeding just have a couple of questionsthat Im begining to form. First my dogs are older and I will look for another dog and if it is not a Nowegian elkhound it will be a GSD. I want atherapy dog(work with juvenile court youth) but i also the more i read watch videos would like to do Schutzhund maybe but I want a dog w/ good nerves and solid temperment.So what are my chances of having a dog w/ that potential(as an owner I have to do my part)? what line do i look at ? Im not as active as some folks on here and at almost 50 I'm not going to run 12 miles so Is a GSD a bad idea for me?


----------



## MicheleMarie

fuzzybunny said:


> I agree with you. I do not like the look of a single dog in the videos above me. Their backs look strange to me. I'm going to have to seriously reconsider what I thought I wanted in my next dog. I was leaning towards GSL but now I'm thinking working lines. Are those dogs above representative of what the backs will look like for a showline? If so, I'm going to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction.


 !!! you're the one with the ASL i like. lol. seriously-i am not a fan for the majority of SL dogs but i LOVE yours lol.


carms: that puppy in the first video made my heart ache. it's all of what 2.5 months old and it doesn't even look normal.


----------



## fuzzybunny

MicheleMarie said:


> !!! you're the one with the ASL i like. lol. seriously-i am not a fan for the majority of SL dogs but i LOVE yours lol.
> 
> 
> carms: that puppy in the first video made my heart ache. it's all of what 2.5 months old and it doesn't even look normal.


I don't have an ASL. The dog in my avatar is a Shiloh Shepherd and my other one is a GSD/Husky mix.  This is my Shiloh. Is he the dog you were thinking of or were you confusing me with someone else who has an ASL?


----------



## Vandal

Lee wrote:


> I had a black and silver dog who did the whole Sch3 routine happily.....as long as you did not hit her with a stick! Environmental and social nerves great - but would not take a stick hit....so not 100% -


Keeping this quote in mind, now watch the videos provided by this youtube user, specifically the 2011 SV BSZS TSB, ( protection work at the Sieger Show) :
KuznetsovSergey's Channel - YouTube

For the last ten years, the people breeding these dogs and the SV, have made "promises" to demand more from the dogs in this "test". Nothing has changed except for *one *thing....they stopped hitting the dogs on the "attack", ( flee is more like it), out of the blind. The drive that follows the attack is supposed to include two stick hits. A couple of years ago, you could see one, very light tap, now they don't even try to hide the fact that the dog is not being hit. A few more years of this and it becomes the norm. They do it slowly, but where things are headed, is in exactly the same direction. 

If anyone wonders why the stick hit is important, please ask. I am sure there are more than a couple of people who will be happy to explain.


----------



## Samba

Okay, no attacks, no sticky hits. Wonder why that is?


----------



## onyx'girl

fuzzybunny said:


> So they're not representative then of all GSL? Will different breeders be producing different degrees of angulation? I initially was drawn to the GSL because they look more muscular *with bigger heads* and their temperaments sound like what I want. I prefer a straighter back though.


I was reading on another board topic was how to remove glue from ears and could not stop myself from commenting on one breeders post:
_Big heads are absolutely the rage in multiple countries. Have you been to a show lately? I do have large beautiful heads on dogs. As long a big heads are the rage people will have the fear of slow to rise ears. That's just the way it is._ 

After I commented, the person posted this, and seems to think the breed needs to be changed once again....her reply to me about the big heads are the rage comment:

_So what I mean to say here is don't complain about the change you want to see in the breed, BE the change you want to see in the breed._

Another way for the breeders to keep on 'changing' the breed. Don't they see everything they do to keep the flavor of the month buyers happy is so detrimental to this breed? 

I don't often quote Captain Max, these are his words>

"*Exaggeration is bad in all circumstances.*"

I totally agree.


----------



## fuzzybunny

onyx'girl said:


> I was reading on another board topic was how to remove glue from ears and could not stop myself from commenting on one breeders post:
> _Big heads are absolutely the rage in multiple countries. Have you been to a show lately? I do have large beautiful heads on dogs. As long a big heads are the rage people will have the fear of slow to rise ears. That's just the way it is._
> 
> After I commented, the person posted this, and seems to think the breed needs to be changed once again....her reply to me about the big heads are the rage comment:
> 
> _So what I mean to say here is don't complain about the change you want to see in the breed, BE the change you want to see in the breed._
> 
> Another way for the breeders to keep on 'changing' the breed. Don't they see everything they do to keep the flavor of the month buyers happy is so detrimental to this breed?
> 
> I don't often quote Captain Max, these are his words>
> 
> "*Exaggeration is bad in all circumstances.*"
> 
> I totally agree.


I didn't mean "bigger heads" as an exaggerated feature. The dog should be proportional. If I were to buy a GSD today I would prefer one that is big and muscular but within breed standard. There is quite a variance though between lines. I've seen some working line dogs that look smaller than the GSL. What is correct? I don't know. I'm new to this and will openly admit I'm trying to learn. I agree though that exaggeration is bad but there seems to be a lot of variance between lines to the point where it can be confusing to say what a GSD is suppose to look like.


----------



## Vandal

From the standard:


> The head is wedge-shaped and in harmony with the dog's size (length app. 40% of height at the withers) without being coarse or overly long. The head should appear dry, and moderately wide between the ears. Seen from the front and side, the forehead is only slightly domed, the center furrow is either absent or only slightly visible. The length ratio of skull to face is 50 : 50%. Skull width approximately equals skull length. Seen from above, the skull slopes into a wedge-shaped muzzle. The stop should not be pronounced. Upper and lower jaws are strong, the bridge of the nose should be straight, not a Roman nose or dish-faced nose. Lips are taut, well closed and of dark color.


The heads on many of the SL dogs, and the DDR dogs for that matter, are not correct. They are too big, more of the mastiff variety than a GSD.


----------



## Vandal

> I agree though that exaggeration is bad but there seems to be a lot of variance between lines to the point where it can be confusing to say what a GSD is suppose to look like


Read the standard and interpret it yourself. Don't simply accept the "interpretation" of others, especially if what they are saying doesn't match what you are looking at.

I have been at shows and at Breed Surveys where the judge is there looking at one dog and describing a completely different one. lol. That's especially true when they start talking about pronounced in protection. It is funny, while at the same time maddening. These people are such good liars, they do it all with a straight face.


----------



## fuzzybunny

Vandal said:


> From the standard:
> 
> The heads on many of the SL dogs, and the DDR dogs for that matter, are not correct. They are too big, more of the mastiff variety than a GSD.



Thank you for posting that! With a clear breed standard, why is there so much variance and differences in appearance? There is an obvious difference in appearance between the working lines and show lines but only 1 breed standard? Which is correct then? Which lines are breeding closest to standard?


----------



## Vandal

That will be for you and your own eyes to decide. I'm not here talking to try to convince anyone one way or the other. People need to educate themselves without relying quite so much on information from one "type" of breeder or another. Use your own judgement, your own eyes and read about what they are supposed to be. Then, it is quite easy, if you are not someone who is susceptible to politics anyway.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

> _Originally posted by Whiteshepherds -Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?_
> 
> PaddyD replied-*WHAT!? *Someone agrees with me?
> Somewhere, somehow there is some strange shi+ happening.


I think you got me mixed up with someone else. I was just trying to learn when the roached back started showing up and how breeders decided it made for a better dog compared to the straighter backs. Didn't want to insult anyone's dogs.


----------



## Emoore

GSDAlphamom's crippled, hock-walking, roach-back, non-athletic German Show Line dogs:










I stole that pic from the July photo contest.


----------



## Freestep

"The stop should not be pronounced. Upper and lower jaws are strong, the bridge of the nose should be straight, not a Roman nose or dish-faced nose."

This from the Standard, but I have seen a number of ASL dogs that had a narrow head and a Roman nose. Not at all attractive, IMO.


----------



## Vandal

> This from the Standard, but I have seen a number of ASL dogs that had a narrow head and a Roman nose. Not at all attractive, IMO.


We were talking about bigger heads. I am pretty certain you can find dogs from all the lines that don't fit the standard exactly.

Like I said, people can read the standard, maybe read the Stephanitz book or others that are not biased one way or the other. Then decide for themselves which dogs...and I mean dogs, not lines.....are closer to the standard.


----------



## Emoore

Vandal said:


> We were talking about bigger heads. I am pretty certain you can find dogs from all the lines that don't fit the standard exactly.
> 
> Like I said, people can read the standard, maybe read the Stephanitz book or others that are not biased one way or the other. Then decide for themselves which dogs...and I mean dogs, not lines.....are closer to the standard.


But Anne! It's so much easier to argue about youtube videos on internet forums!


I think that's the thing that makes me craziest sometimes: Working dogs are like this. ASL dogs are like that. GSL dogs are like this. You shouldn't have a rescue dog if you've got young kids because rescue dogs are unpredictable. If we were talking about people we'd all be banned for a bunch of racists.


----------



## Vandal

> But Anne! It's so much easier to argue about youtube videos on internet forums!


I don't feel like reading back thru all 20 pages but I don't recall many people arguing. Those videos are what they are. Pretty good indication of what wins in Germany at the moment. Did you want to argue? You seem angry...maybe I have a few minutes to fight. You go first.

Ooops.... forgot the smiley icon 

I should put one in my signature. Seems to help some other people.


----------



## Emoore

Vandal said:


> I don't feel like reading back thru all 20 pages but I don't recall many people arguing. Those videos are what they are. Pretty good indication of what wins in Germany at the moment. Did you want to argue? You seem angry...maybe I have a few minutes to fight. You go first.


Sure. Your mother dresses you funny!


Actually you're right. There's been some great discussion on this thread and we've managed to remain pretty civil. Go team! ompoms:


Edit: crap. Wasn't there a smiley with a cheerleader? I fail at the interwebz.


----------



## Vandal

Too personal and that would upset my dear departed mother more than it upsets me. I will only fight about dogs.


----------



## Emoore

Vandal said:


> Too personal and that would upset my dear departed mother more than it upsets me. I will only fight about dogs.


Sorry. :crazy: That black dog in your avatar is really black! And black dogs are all. . . . um. . . . something?


----------



## onyx'girl

Emoore said:


> Sorry. :crazy: That black dog in your avatar is really black! And black dogs are all. . . . um. . . . something?


a challenge to photograph!


----------



## Freestep

Vandal said:


> We were talking about bigger heads. I am pretty certain you can find dogs from all the lines that don't fit the standard exactly.


That was my point--it goes from one extreme to the other. The standard specifically says that GSDs are not to be "Roman nosed", and yet I've seen some ASL dogs that do have a Roman nose. Everyone seems to interpret things differently, but the standard does not seem to indicate that a larger head is undesireable, as long as it's in proportion and not too coarse. Personally, I'd rather see a head more on the big side, than on the narrow and Roman nosed side. That's just a personal preference.


----------



## onyx'girl

I like a strong head too, but to breed _for _it is unacceptable. Just because it is "all the rage" is no reason to exaggerate it.
The post(opinion of the breeder) I read on the PDB(I can't link it here because we are not supposed to link other forums) was appalling to me... I didn't want to hijack that thread, but couldn't let that go without commenting. 
Ears are soft because the big headed breeders are not breeding for anything except looks...they have lists of directions on how to make the ears stand. 
Ears should not need help to stand, and I doubt Max ever had to deal with soft eared GSD's, or if they were soft, he didn't use artifical means to make them stand for asthetics.


----------



## PaddyD

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think you got me mixed up with someone else. I was just trying to learn when the roached back started showing up and how breeders decided it made for a better dog compared to the straighter backs. Didn't want to insult anyone's dogs.


It was that you recognized that roach backs exist and that they have a following. So many breeders and their sycophants seem to be in denial and think their dogs are perfectly fine and functional.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Would it be possible to show me a "Roman" nose and a nose that is more acceptable for a GSD? Without using pictures of dogs here on the forum? Or maybe just show me one very correct nose and then I'll have a standard to compare to?


----------



## Liesje

Vandal said:


> For the last ten years, the people breeding these dogs and the SV, have made "promises" to demand more from the dogs in this "test". Nothing has changed except for *one *thing....they stopped hitting the dogs on the "attack", ( flee is more like it), out of the blind. The drive that follows the attack is supposed to include two stick hits. A couple of years ago, you could see one, very light tap, now they don't even try to hide the fact that the dog is not being hit.


Actually another thing changed. Now they are doing the long bites like backup bites for some of the dogs, you know the dogs that have already been predetermined to get VA ratings so they need to "pass" this "courage test" first. Some of the vids from the recent show look like the helpers are smiling and laughing. Good grief....

As far as heads go I admit I like a substantial, masculine head but I've seen some recently that even make me cringe. They look like an Akita or Chow head but the size of a Newf on a GSD.


----------



## Vandal

> Actually another thing changed. Now they are doing the long bites like backup bites


That ain't new. lol



> They look like an Akita or Chow head but the size of a Newf on a GSD.


Yes, that is what I am talking about.


----------



## onyx'girl

Liesje said:


> Actually another thing changed. Now they are doing the long bites like backup bites for some of the dogs, you know the dogs that have already been predetermined to get VA ratings so they need to "pass" this "courage test" first. Some of the vids from the recent show look like the helpers are smiling and laughing. Good grief....


Maybe they are quietly calling them as in "here kitty kitty" with a kissy sound to get them to come up? JK:blush:


----------



## Freestep

onyx'girl said:


> I like a strong head too, but to breed _for _it is unacceptable. Just because it is "all the rage" is no reason to exaggerate it.


I almost said something to that effect in my post, but figured it went without saying.  Then again, when personal preferences are allowed to run wild regardless of what the standard says, you get these "fads" and the breeders that cater to them. 

I do think a strong head is important, as I think it gives an overall impression of strength, expression, and character of the GSD; but that doesn't mean I'd have "big head" high on the list of priorities if I were a breeder, and it certainly doesn't mean we ought to start emphasizing and exaggerating head size above everything else. A GSD is not a Mastiff. 

Having said that, I'd definitely want to breed away from a narrow collie-like head. That's just personal preference. I do like a moderately wide head, but not to the point where you've got hanging flews or anything like that.


----------



## Liesje

Well you know, they have to get "desensitized" to that new helper first...


----------



## Freestep

Jo Ellen said:


> Would it be possible to show me a "Roman" nose and a nose that is more acceptable for a GSD? Without using pictures of dogs here on the forum? Or maybe just show me one very correct nose and then I'll have a standard to compare to?


I wish I had a photo to explain what I'm talking about, but I don't know the names of the dogs or the bloodlines that posess the "Roman nose", so I couldn't look up a picture. I saw one such dog in person, too--I mentioned it to the owner and they said it was relatively common in the bloodline. All I remember is, it was an ASL bitch who had come out for training, and she had decent nerve and some working drive--I rather liked her, other than the Roman nose.


----------



## onyx'girl

Kacie has a Roman nose. She also has a severe underbite...I don't have her pedigree but assume she is a SL, though very pigmented...so may have some WL somewhere in there....she also has a very blocky head for a female~here are a few of her:
The first week we had her, teeth were horrid looking for a 21 month old~ Onyx was 6 months in this pic:

























Her tooth alignment, which may have lots(or nothing) to do with her roman nose:


----------



## Freestep

Wow, I've actually never seen an underbite in a GSD, only overbites. Her nose isn't near as extreme as some of the dogs I've seen, though--hers has just a very slight downward turn at the end, almost not noticeable. Despite her little flaws, she's a very pretty girl!


----------



## fuzzybunny

Freestep said:


> I do think a strong head is important, as I think it gives an overall impression of strength, expression, and character of the GSD; but that doesn't mean I'd have "big head" high on the list of priorities if I were a breeder, and it certainly doesn't mean we ought to start emphasizing and exaggerating head size above everything else. A GSD is not a Mastiff.
> 
> Having said that, I'd definitely want to breed away from a narrow collie-like head. That's just personal preference. I do like a moderately wide head, but not to the point where you've got hanging flews or anything like that.


I knew when I used "bigger heads" I wasn't adequately describing what I wanted to say. "Stronger heads" would have been a better choice of words for me. Freestep's above statement is what I was trying to say but did a poor job of saying. 

My questions earlier about which lines most closely match the breed standard were more rhetorical. I already have formed an opinion on this. I still maintain though that it is confusing when there is so much obvious variance between lines. IMO, when you have this much variance then either the standard is unclear so it's being interpreted in a multitude of ways or it is clear but is being completed ignored for people's own agendas. Neither option is good. That's just my take on things.


----------



## Samba

I always thought of this as a roman nose. Gosh, I hope this pic is not too large. I can't resize on this device!


----------



## Andaka




----------



## onyx'girl

A Roman nose is where the leather area goes down, not level with the muzzle, correct? Or a bump before the leather, then downward motion.
Daphne, that is the perfect example! Kacie has that look, I just don't have good profile pics(she is camera shy due to her storm phobia)
Is the tooth/jaw alignment correct on the dog in that pic?


----------



## gagsd

My beloved, Roman-nosed Kenju...


----------



## Samba

Oh well, not correct, but there is nobility in those roman-nosed dogs! Mine was as devoted as his nose was long and bumpy!


----------



## gagsd

Certainly nobility


----------



## Jo Ellen

Thanks, I have a general idea now. Can you see this in a puppy GSD or does it not show well until later?


----------



## Vandal

I have learned something on this thread. Never knew what a roman nose looked like until now.


----------



## Andaka

onyx'girl said:


> A Roman nose is where the leather area goes down, not level with the muzzle, correct? Or a bump before the leather, then downward motion.
> Daphne, that is the perfect example! Kacie has that look, I just don't have good profile pics(she is camera shy due to her storm phobia)
> Is the tooth/jaw alignment correct on the dog in that pic?


Yes, it was perfect. he had several points toward his championship and his CD as well.


----------



## carmspack

> Ears should not need help to stand, and I doubt Max ever had to deal with soft eared GSD's, or if they were soft, he didn't use artifical means to make them stand for asthetics.


 
Well as a matter of fact he did have a lot to say about the ears which I will find for you tomorrow in the von Stephanitz book when I have the time to look and better lighting to see .

Our breed developed around the ears !

In many passages he says it is to the detriment of the breed as a working animal to concentrate on the priority of a prick ear and the vain pride the privileged "town" (non working) owners of the dogs had.

If you look at it historically the Wurtemburgers , the heavier set south German working sheep herding dogs did have a droop ear.

The market demand was for the wild-wolf look of the prick ear which was the goal of the Phylax society . The northern dogs , the Thuringian type brought in the prick ear , but also brought in some of the reactivity and potential for sharp , shy, lower thresholds .

The Wurtemburger breeders got busy trying to create an upright ear carriage - and made some compromises to attain it . 

This is all documented in the von Stephanitz book.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Catu

Liesje said:


> As far as heads go I admit I like a substantial, masculine head but I've seen some recently that even make me cringe. They look like an Akita or Chow head but the size of a Newf on a GSD.


That would be Akela at 5 months old! He looked like a bear by then, luckily he has grown into that head and looks balanced now, though older than he really is. I also was afraid I'd end up with and oversized monster by that age, but so far he almost stopped growing in height at 8 months old. I bet that serious talk we had about being into the standard made sense to him.


----------



## horsegirl

my asl dogs head , certainly not roach or bitchy.. I don't care what linr you have its all about correct breeding.


----------



## Blondi's Revenge

This was a great discussion, let's restart it - throughout the whole thread it didn't seem like one person mentioned a good reason for the roached back - there's appears to be no justification for it, not on a health or even aesthetic reason. So why would people who are presumably experts and guards of the breed perpetuate such a warped standard?

Can anyone offer more insight?


----------



## wildo

Blondi's Revenge said:


> This was a great discussion, let's restart it - throughout the whole thread it didn't seem like one person mentioned a good reason for the roached back - there's appears to be no justification for it, not on a health or even aesthetic reason. So why would people who are presumably experts and guards of the breed perpetuate such a warped standard?
> 
> Can anyone offer more insight?


No need to revive a dead thread. This forum lives and breaths on discussing SL "issues." Here's a wonderful, recent, thread on the thing you asked for. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/572129-sv-judge-true-back-gsd.html


----------



## Liesje

Blondi's Revenge said:


> This was a great discussion, let's restart it - throughout the whole thread it didn't seem like one person mentioned a good reason for the roached back - there's appears to be no justification for it, not on a health or even aesthetic reason. So why would people who are presumably experts and guards of the breed perpetuate such a warped standard?
> 
> Can anyone offer more insight?


Because breeding GSDs is not just about breeding backs. If everyone were to focus on breeding "straight back" or "level back" GSDs, other more important things would suffer. Many GSDs have roached backs, and many don't. Just like there is a range in size, color, temperament, drive, nerve, quality of hips and other joints, earset, etc. A back is just one of a hundred or more things that go into breeding GSDs. Also, often the reason for a roached back has nothing to do with the back itself. You see this on dogs that have flatter withers (or upper arms too short and/or lower arms too long), short and steep croups, and/or excessive rear angulation. It's like if you take several pieces of string about the same length and ponder why some might be straight, some might curve, some curve more than others...the difference is the point A and B of where the ends of the string are. A dog's back is similar. A roached back is a function of other aspects of the dog's conformation being incorrect. Why they are incorrect, the degree to which they are incorrect, and whether or how it can be fixed through breeding is more complex than just only breeding dogs with "straight backs". 

Really though, I think MOST GSDs do not have roachy toplines. Even among the WGSL you can find many that are a more subtle curve (which is not bad, especially if the front end of the dog is nicely put together and the croup is the right angle and length) or straight.

There is no real justification for it other than it's the current fad of WGSL.


----------



## Blondi's Revenge

wildo said:


> No need to revive a dead thread. This forum lives and breaths on discussing SL "issues." Here's a wonderful, recent, thread on the thing you asked for. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/572129-sv-judge-true-back-gsd.html


If you look at the current "Active topics" a lot of the discussions have been very stale, nonetheless I've seen the thread you've linked me to and that is also a good discussion but there's a lot of great posts on here that people might wish to discuss. Either way, it's a free market and that's why we keep old threads


----------



## carmspack

Kudos to Blondi's Revenge who takes the initiative to go back and read some of the old posts . 
So you like to read ? Get a hold of Malcolm Willis , The German Shepherd Dog , and The German shepherd dog, its history, development, and genetics.
Also Brian Wooton The German Shepherd Dog
and Sue Barwig's encyclopedic The Book of the German Shepherd

Yes - "A roached back is a function of other aspects of the dog's conformation being incorrect"

Yes - "breeding is more complex than just only breeding dogs with "straight backs". 
Actually many examples given on forum on "straight backs" weren't correct or good .


----------

