# Bite Incident - 16month Male GSD



## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Hey Everyone, 

Long time lurker, first time poster.

So my male working line GSD bit a dog trainer 4 weeks ago, looking for some advice/reassurance. He was 16 months old at the time.

We actually went to the training because of dog reactivity on lead, not expecting at all this to take place, I will try to be as detailed as possible. He is good with other dogs off lead, and I’ve since realised myself his on leash reactivity towards dogs is likely badly timed corrections leading to him feeling fearful when parallel to dogs on the pavement only.

Now my partner took him to a dog trainer without me, specifically GSD only dog trainer. Our dog reacted to another, and she came over to him grabbed his scruff put three fingers on his nose and pushed it down until he was uncomfortable. She then tried to take the lead from my partner, pulled upwards on it and our dog turned towards her and air snapped. She handed the lead back and said ‘yes some working lines don’t like that’.
Now I have experience with my fearful GSD female, who unfortunately passed away only two months ago. I did not want to go back to this trainer as I felt this would only association negative feelings towards us or strangers and I only ever trained using positive reinforcement when fear is involved.

Fast forward a couple weeks later and we go to a different trainer. Our dog is clearly stressed on arrivals, smells of dogs everywhere and barks at a weird sign. He then proceeded to bark every time the trainer made eye contact or spoke to him. He settled down while we talked. This trainer has years and years of experience with GSDs.

Heres where it all went wrong. He told us to put the long line on and let our dog approach and he would ignore him. He approached, cautious body langauage sniffed briefly and then walked away. Trainer ignored him entirely. Now, he approached again a few minutes later, sniffed but this time went stiff and started to raise his body slowly, trainers arm is at his chest, this seemed to freak the trainer out as he then looked down and made eye contact, pushed his hand slowly towards our dog to smell of which he didn’t sniff just stayed tense, then the trainer essentially positioned his arm towards his mouth and our dog took hold. My partner gave him his out command and he let go immediately and returned to his side.

the trainer didn’t immediately back off, stayed where he was and tried to reassure us that he had been bitten plenty of times before (oh great) and advised us it seemed to be a fear bite not protectiveness. Advised us not to be using any adversives.

We carried on for a while training around some dogs. We then walked into a wooded path and our dog clearly wasn’t comfortable with the trainer being close behind him when I was walking him. Kept turning to look when the trainer spoke.

Now in hindsight he was clearly trigged stacked to ****. New environment, lots of dogs, car ride (he gets nauseous in the car sometimes), weird sign etc.

The bite wound was 4 punctures, all not very deep.

Since the incident I have taken over all walking as my partner is anxious as all **** about walking him. (I am a 50kg woman and my dog is 45kg!) I’m not so anxious as I’ve walked a reactive dog for years now, but naturally I am now extremely cautious around people. However I am aware I need to project confidence so I do just that and don’t run away from situations, just plan carefully and walk confidently with clear commands.

For the first week post bite, he stared at everyone walking past which was new, looking right into their eyes (for me until these two incidents he’s always ignored people on leash and let people pet him when off leash, although very aloof to attention which i had expected). I stopped all corrections and gave a simple ‘come on’ command when he stared and then rewarded with food when he did, and have been rewarding all calm behaviour around people, (this has been hard to start as he is much more play motivated than food motivated but I’ve been advised ball play on a short leash on pavements doesn’t work well).

Ironically using this same method I have been able to cut out his dog reactivity. He still gets aroused and pulls towards sometimes, but this is improving every day and no more lunging or verbal outbursts. Seems more happy and relaxed off leash with dogs as opposed to checking them out and moving on.

I’m at the point now where he is comfortable walking very close by people, and eye contact is okay if they aren’t too close. Appox 2-3 meters for eye contact. He still seems on edge if he is suprised by a person and when he looks they are looking at him. I can tell he would not like to be approached so I am respecting this. He is not bothered by joggers, cyclists, skateboards etc. Little iffy with cats on the street but it’s coming along fine.

I have also muzzle trained him now up to 10mins, working on extending the time.

Does it seem like I’m doing the right thing here? How do I go about the next step with actual pressure from people talking to him, approaching and eventually short touches?

Naturally I will be using the muzzle for everyone’s safety. But he is very play motivated and I really feel like having the pressure of a stranger approaching from a safe distance but then throwing a toy for him will mean more to him in a counter conditioning sense. Or is that likely to be too much? I don’t expect him to be an overly friendly dog that’s not what I wanted. But I do want him to be aloof and tolerant of basic things like people approaching me, touching me, talking to him, maybe small pets if we can get there.

Very overwhelming, but he is still so young and otherwise he is a brilliant dog. He is very obedient, not sound reactive in the house (unless it’s something new which I then give him his place command and check it out myself). Doesn’t bark at the door postman etc. I feel like he is now suspicious of all strangers because this random woman decided to hurt his nose with no guidance at all. Its not like she asked for a behaviour and then corrected, she just corrected as response to his fear barking.

Any advice would be so gratefully appreciated.


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

roseelle213 said:


> Any advice would be so gratefully appreciated.


This is from a rescue worker who has to do some training to interact with and help the poor mutts. I've never been bit when trying to help or otherwise train one to accept help from a human. That sounds like luck, but maybe not. Perhaps the trainers are the problem, but I'd hate to bad-mouth a profession when I am only familiar with charlatans or the ill-trained themselves. The common mistake I see from trainers in Nepal is that they don't get to know the dog *first* before doing anything as far as training goes. But that takes time on the clock, and I suppose trainers get push back from owners as well. And if anything that working with street dogs has informed me, is that dogs have unique personalities and like humans, mental health interventions must be tailored. Following one method may work on one set of dogs, but not one individual... hard to know why not as there is no *talk therapy *available. 

So back to advice, if you have to find a trainer (vs. just buckling down and winging it), find one without all the distractions u mentioned (instead: close to home, good training yard, maybe overnight accommodations for better familiarity). The last point there might be more important than most realize. Dogs are much easier to train one-on-one, 24x7, by the alpha of the family, whomever that may be. Difficulty increases when those factors are changed (multiple dogs in the home, less time with the dog by whoever's doing the training, age relative to the family pack make-up). For example, putting the 13-year-old in charge of training may impact the outcome, but not in a good way). That said, I feel dogs are not all that complicated, and that you can figure it out. Best of luck with your GSD baby!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The trainer made a mistake when he ignored your dog's very obvious body language and reached toward him. There's no reason for strangers to pet your dog and you'll create more anxiety by trying to force it.It actually sounds like you're making really good progress by encouraging your dog to accept the other dog's and people's existence and to stay calm. That is a huge deal! So many owners struggle and often fail to get to that point.
My current dog is nervy like that and you'd never know it if you saw us out and about. He'll sit or lay calmly during a conversation and has no reaction towards dogs or cats. There's no pressure from me to change his personality. As he grew more relaxed and confident he began to approach people on his own occasionally. He actually enjoys having visitors at home now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

roseelle213 said:


> she came over to him grabbed his scruff put three fingers on his nose and pushed it down until he was uncomfortable. She then tried to take the lead from my partner, pulled upwards on it and our dog turned towards her and air snapped. She handed the lead back and said ‘yes some working lines don’t like that’.
> 
> ......................................
> 
> ...


Wow. Who are these people? The first trainer totally deserved to be bitten. The second one...I"m not surprised he's been bitten several times. You would think he would change his methods.

So you have a reactive dogs and these trainers are forcing themselves on him. What kind of training does your dog have? He knows an "out" command? Are there other issues than just dog reactivity on a lead? what's the whole history on the dog?


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Wow. Who are these people? The first trainer totally deserved to be bitten. The second one...I"m not surprised he's been bitten several times. You would think he would change his methods.
> 
> So you have a reactive dogs and these trainers are forcing themselves on him. What kind of training does your dog have? He knows an "out" command? Are there other issues than just dog reactivity on a lead? what's the whole history on the dog?



First trainer was from a training group called BAGSD Reigate here in the UK. Claim to have worked with GSDs for years.

He just has basic obedience training, we worked on his impulse control with toys so he knows what leave and take hold means, but just in a fun context of play. Even I was suprised he actually let go when it was nothing like playing! He knows all the basics sit, down, heel and some fun ones like middle. All just to fulfill him and occupy his brain. Nope no issues before this other than his dog reactivity on lead on pavements, short lead on grass not reactive! And off lead/long line no issues at all. Although we now realise he isn’t comfortable with guests in the house and will bark. We didn’t have guests over for a few months when my older dog was sick so I imagine he doesn’t see it as very normal. But currently he is just crated in his pen if we have guests and will settle down and watch quietly, eventually will sleep and relax fully if they ignore him. I’ll reward for calm behaviour. I haven’t let anyone try to touch him since this incident. 

As far as history I bought him from a reputable breeder at 13 weeks old. We have his lineage certificate. He lived with my other GSD who was dog reactive but fine if introduced carefully which we did and they loved each other. We didn’t walk them together due to her reactivity and of course him needing one on one training, and he was crate trained with no issues. Plenty of quite time for him to rest and always eyes on him when he was out of crate. Socialisation wise we didn’t want to force him to meet people so I always took it as his pace as a pup, he met plenty of kind people and dogs in a relaxed way and never showed any issues. All different sorts of people and dogs. Only a few kids that one I didn’t have much access too it’s just me and my partner. On lead and off lead. Started reacting to dogs on the pavement around 10ish months old, I didn’t want to let him build lots of associations of doing that so we just kept a distance and worked on some focus training. When I got to any field his body language changed and he completely relaxed. But then I wasn’t making huge progress in distances on pavement so hense looking for a trainer. Been trained majority through play as he will do anything for the swing and fling toy. Always struggled with his pulling on lead but this has improved but still needs work.
He did have a vet trip around this time also, still covid measures so the vet took the lead, he was fine being lead away but the vet when she came out said we would need to muzzle him as he snapped at the nurse when the vet caused him pain (he had a knee injury since healed). So I guess that was our first sign, but the vet didn’t seem concerned about it and said it was the breed nature sometimes and not all dogs will tolerate pain. She had to cause him pain to see where the injury was. He was still fine meeting strangers after this and didn’t seem to associate it with all new people. I don’t have any issues touching him myself to clean his ears, cut his nails etc but I’ve never had anyone else do that.
Unfortunately two months ago my female died suddenly at the young age of 4, she had terrible genetics and was being treated for bladder stones when one night her bladder burst. Very heartbreaking and I imagine confusing for him too. He is out of his crate more now he can be trusted and pretty much sleeps all day. He has a walk first thing, afternoon and short walk in the evening. We still use the crate once per day though for a nap so he doesn’t get weird about it! I think that’s all the main points so far in his life, he doesn’t seem to be a nervous dog by genetics, so I’m really gutted this has happened it’s knocked my partners confidence hugely. He was one of two pups left, the breeder said the other pup was quite bossy and head strong so would be a handful, he apparently was more calm and happy to follow the other pups around so thought he would suit us better being we had another dog


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not convinced your dog is nervy. Issues at the vet are common. My dogs have to be muzzled. they are not going to tolerate a stranger hurting them.

What you are describing is a dog that was stable throughout puppyhood, started to hit maturity and developed frustration aggression (because it was only on leash and the opposition of the collar when tight will create frustration) and now at 16 months old, two trainers with incredibly stupid methods pushed him and one got bit. Yes, you have a problem but I think it's fixable and I don't think it's nerve related. It's noon here and I haven't even sat down to have breakfast yet so I'm tagging David and Jim into this thread for their thoughts.

@David Winners
@Slamdunc


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Don’t beat yourself up, everyone had at least one encounter with a ’gsd specific’ traner that did more damage than good. The good thing is our dogs are resilient and will recover from unfortunate incidents, we end up more impacted than the dogs. I’m also not convinced your dog has fear problems.

To be honest, I’m always baffled with this widespread habit to extend a hand to an unknown dog to ‘sniff’. The dog can smell you a meter away, no need to stick your hand into his face. No one did this to my previous dog who just looked at them and they crossed the street, but with my current dog it’s like some epidemic, kids, adults, everyone  He doesn’t care but still… And here a trainer did this and was absolutely oblivious to the dogs obvious body language.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Jax08 this is why I think the dog is nervy albeit mildly.Being on a long line he had the options to ignore or walk away.On a scale 1 -10 this dog might be a 2 whereas mine is a 5.Yours and my perspectives are different of course.I'm also interested in others experiences.
Both trainers messed up big time!
"Fast forward a couple weeks later and we go to a different trainer. Our dog is clearly stressed on arrivals, smells of dogs everywhere and barks at a weird sign. He then proceeded to bark every time the trainer made eye contact or spoke to him. He settled down while we talked. This trainer has years and years of experience with GSDs.

Heres where it all went wrong. He told us to put the long line on and let our dog approach and he would ignore him. He approached, cautious body langauage sniffed briefly and then walked away. Trainer ignored him entirely. Now, he approached again a few minutes later, sniffed but this time went stiff and started to raise his body slowly, trainers arm is at his chest, this seemed to freak the trainer out as he then looked down and made eye contact, pushed his hand slowly towards our dog to smell of which he didn’t sniff just stayed tense, then the trainer essentially positioned his arm towards his mouth and our dog took hold. My partner gave him his out command and he let go immediately and returned to his side."


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> @Jax08 this is why I think the dog is nervy albeit mildly.Being on a long line he had the options to ignore or walk away.On a scale 1 -10 this dog might be a 2 whereas mine is a 5.Yours and my perspectives are different of course.I'm also interested in others experiences.
> Both trainers messed up big time!
> "Fast forward a couple weeks later and we go to a different trainer. Our dog is clearly stressed on arrivals, smells of dogs everywhere and barks at a weird sign. He then proceeded to bark every time the trainer made eye contact or spoke to him. He settled down while we talked. This trainer has years and years of experience with GSDs.
> 
> Heres where it all went wrong. He told us to put the long line on and let our dog approach and he would ignore him. He approached, cautious body langauage sniffed briefly and then walked away. Trainer ignored him entirely. Now, he approached again a few minutes later, sniffed but this time went stiff and started to raise his body slowly, trainers arm is at his chest, this seemed to freak the trainer out as he then looked down and made eye contact, pushed his hand slowly towards our dog to smell of which he didn’t sniff just stayed tense, then the trainer essentially positioned his arm towards his mouth and our dog took hold. My partner gave him his out command and he let go immediately and returned to his side."


Yes very true he could have walked away, I am very curious as to why he raised his body also..he did struggle a lot with jumping up as a puppy it took us a lot longer to teach paws on the floor, and even now when he checks in with me indoors he has a tendency to come right up to my face and nudge me/lick me it seems to reassure him, and I am very affectionate with him generally, I do wonder if he wanted to do the same with the trainer and became frustrated when he essentially used his arm as a barrier to stop him… we would usually turn around and ignore until he was calm sitting and then give attention. I do feel I’ve missed a trick on teaching the behaviour I would like when introducing to new people?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

roseelle213 said:


> Yes very true he could have walked away, I am very curious as to why he raised his body also..he did struggle a lot with jumping up as a puppy it took us a lot longer to teach paws on the floor, and even now when he checks in with me indoors he has a tendency to come right up to my face and nudge me/lick me it seems to reassure him, and I am very affectionate with him generally, I do wonder if he wanted to do the same with the trainer and became frustrated when he essentially used his arm as a barrier to stop him… we would usually turn around and ignore until he was calm sitting and then give attention. I do feel I’ve missed a trick on teaching the behaviour I would like when introducing to new people?


Hard to say without being there.Another way to look at it (guessing here) is he was making himself look bigger as a defense mechanism while deciding flight or bite.Looking at things from different angles is all 🤷‍♀️


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> Hard to say without being there.Another way to look at it (guessing here) is he was making himself look bigger as a defense mechanism while deciding flight or bite.Looking at things from different angles is all 🤷‍♀️


Ah yes that would make sense. I guess the hand pressure tipped him over the edge to bite


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> @Jax08 this is why I think the dog is nervy albeit mildly.Being on a long line he had the options to ignore or walk away.On a scale 1 -10 this dog might be a 2 whereas mine is a 5.Yours and my perspectives are different of course.I'm also interested in others experiences.
> Both trainers messed up big time!


Or maybe just maturing and civil. Faren will bite you just for fun for breaking her rules. She's not going to ignore or walk away. Her body language will tell you no. She sits calmly, quietly, with her mouth shut, watching.... Break her rules. She will bite you. It's not nerve. It's in her breeding. Certain dogs bring forward aggression. I respect that. Not all dogs react with fight out of fear. I'd like to see a pedigree and a video of what happened but nothing in the description says he's a nerve bag to me. 

Yes, both trainers are idiots.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

This is a good read re often missed, misunderstood and mishandled fear periods in adolescent dogs Working Breed Dogs Have a More Difficult Time in the Adolescent Fear Period . Some dogs have harder time growing up then other dogs, hormones are all over the place (they will start leveling around 24 months), genetics traits start coming to the surface. They can appear nervy but they do not always have weak nerves or fear, they just don't know how to handle new emotions and drives they feel.

With my current dog I really had no idea what kind of dog wakes up in the morning, he was a difficult dog for me, well, working dog stuck in a pet home. And I didn't even care, just carried on with training, rules and life. Yours is obedient, mine wasn't, he pulled, he jumped, he chased, he ran, he nipped, he barked, he blew me off, you name it. And then out of the blue few weeks ago a person stopped me on the street asking who trains my dog because he's so awesome and well behaved... I truly wish I had access to a good trainer but I firmly believe that no training is better than bad training so I am super picky with dog professionals. My dog is 2.5 yo, still work in progress but I love the dog he's maturing into.

Bottom line, relax, talk to the breeder, find out more about dogs in the pedigree, look for a trainer you can trust and keep doing what you are doing because you already see positive results.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks Jax08.Now I am curious and have more questions but don't want to hijack the thread. I'll ask you later


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> Thanks Jax08.Now I am curious and have more questions but don't want to hijack the thread. I'll ask you later


GSD07 did a great job explaining it. They just have soo many feelings! It's like a hormonal teenager ranting and crying over nothing but to them it's a huge deal


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

GSD07 said:


> This is a good read re often missed, misunderstood and mishandled fear periods in adolescent dogs Working Breed Dogs Have a More Difficult Time in the Adolescent Fear Period . Some dogs have harder time growing up then other dogs, hormones are all over the place (they will start leveling around 24 months), genetics traits start coming to the surface. They can appear nervy but they do not always have weak nerves or fear, they just don't know how to handle new emotions and drives they feel.
> 
> With my current dog I really had no idea what kind of dog wakes up in the morning, he was a difficult dog for me, well, working dog stuck in a pet home. And I didn't even care, just carried on with training, rules and life. Yours is obedient, mine wasn't, he pulled, he jumped, he chased, he ran, he nipped, he barked, he blew me off, you name it. And then out of the blue few weeks ago a person stopped me on the street asking who trains my dog because he's so awesome and well behaved... I truly wish I had access to a good trainer but I firmly believe that no training is better than bad training so I am super picky with dog professionals. My dog is 2.5 yo, still work in progress but I love the dog he's maturing into.
> 
> Bottom line, relax, talk to the breeder, find out more about dogs in the pedigree, look for a trainer you can trust and keep doing what you are doing because you already see positive results.


I like this.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

GSD07 said:


> This is a good read re often missed, misunderstood and mishandled fear periods in adolescent dogs Working Breed Dogs Have a More Difficult Time in the Adolescent Fear Period . Some dogs have harder time growing up then other dogs, hormones are all over the place (they will start leveling around 24 months), genetics traits start coming to the surface. They can appear nervy but they do not always have weak nerves or fear, they just don't know how to handle new emotions and drives they feel.
> 
> With my current dog I really had no idea what kind of dog wakes up in the morning, he was a difficult dog for me, well, working dog stuck in a pet home. And I didn't even care, just carried on with training, rules and life. Yours is obedient, mine wasn't, he pulled, he jumped, he chased, he ran, he nipped, he barked, he blew me off, you name it. And then out of the blue few weeks ago a person stopped me on the street asking who trains my dog because he's so awesome and well behaved... I truly wish I had access to a good trainer but I firmly believe that no training is better than bad training so I am super picky with dog professionals. My dog is 2.5 yo, still work in progress but I love the dog he's maturing into.
> 
> Bottom line, relax, talk to the breeder, find out more about dogs in the pedigree, look for a trainer you can trust and keep doing what you are doing because you already see positive results.


thank you I really needed this, we’ve just had a great walk in the dark around a busy city and he was so much calmer. We saw a man sitting on the floor with his hood up, and he did a very controlled suspicious growl without any lunging, listened to my command and moved on no issues. Actually made me feel safer! I think you’re right he’s just working out his feelings what is normal and what isn’t, and to look to me for guidance on how to react. I’ll try to stop stressing and just keep guiding him through. I imagine if someone did ever try to attack me he would react accordingly, and I can’t be mad at that!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

roseelle213 said:


> thank you I really needed this, we’ve just had a great walk in the dark around a busy city and he was so much calmer. We saw a man sitting on the floor with his hood up, and he did a very controlled suspicious growl without any lunging, listened to my command and moved on no issues. Actually made me feel safer! I think you’re right he’s just working out his feelings what is normal and what isn’t, and to look to me for guidance on how to react. I’ll try to stop stressing and just keep guiding him through. I imagine if someone did ever try to attack me he would react accordingly, and I can’t be mad at that!



This is very much something Faren would have done, and did do at the meditating hippie in the middle of the park who sat without blinking or moving. It's a very calm, that's not normal, growl. Just because he has suspicion does not mean he will protect you. It just means he noted that it was weird, reacted to that but moved on without any drama when you told him too. But people who don't look right that hear that growl won't know that  I feel like a truly nervy dog would have lit up over something like that. Did he spook? did he back up? I would call that nervy if he did. If he was forward and growling, that's not nerve. 

Would you mind posting his pedigree? Are the parents on pedigreedatabase or working dog? I would really like to see it.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Or maybe just maturing and civil. Faren will bite you just for fun for breaking her rules. She's not going to ignore or walk away. Her body language will tell you no. She sits calmly, quietly, with her mouth shut, watching.... Break her rules. She will bite you. It's not nerve. It's in her breeding. Certain dogs bring forward aggression. I respect that. Not all dogs react with fight out of fear. I'd like to see a pedigree and a video of what happened but nothing in the description says he's a nerve bag to me.
> 
> Yes, both trainers are idiots.


I'm interested in what rules a stranger might break to get bitten? 
Reaching out to pet her? 
Picking up her toy?
Approaching you?

And what breeding produces this?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@roseelle213 

Here is a really good thread on civil dogs. Read slamdunc's posts. See if this information fits what you are seeing in your dog as he matures. 









Civil vs. Social


So I've been wondering something for a while. I have an understanding of the word "civil". To me, it means: To be able to get along in a social group, including with individuals you don't know or particularly like. However, the more I read on this thread, and the more I read on other breeder's...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> This is very much something Faren would have done, and did do at the meditating hippie in the middle of the park who sat without blinking or moving. It's a very calm, that's not normal, growl. Just because he has suspicion does not mean he will protect you. It just means he noted that it was weird, reacted to that but moved on without any drama when you told him too. But people who don't look right that hear that growl won't know that  I feel like a truly nervy dog would have lit up over something like that. Did he spook? did he back up? I would call that nervy if he did. If he was forward and growling, that's not nerve.
> 
> Would you mind posting his pedigree? Are the parents on pedigreedatabase or working dog? I would really like to see it.


I see that’s interesting, I have no idea how he would react if I were to act afraid myself. Nope he didn’t spook or back up, he slowly moved forward, and typically if it’s a weird object he growls at he will take a stance with his back legs low and creep toward the object, he did it with a random basket in the middle of the pavement tonight too. 

Here is the shorter version from his KC profile, I did have the full certificate printed with more lines back but it’s at my parents at the moment


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> @roseelle213
> 
> Here is a really good thread on civil dogs. Read slamdunc's posts. See if this information fits what you are seeing in your dog as he matures.
> 
> ...


Wow that was fascinating. There’s certainly so much more to the breed than I realised. My female GSD was just a family breed dog, no breeding history and nervy as ****, I have a suspicion she may have been inbred to be honest. I’m excited and anxious to see what adult dog I’m going to end up with haha


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nice pedigree. I would find him a job if he were mine.  Find a working dog club and train him. You have a lot of dog there. IMO, a dog moving forward at something they are concerned about is not nerve. I think you just have a powerful working line male. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression. And he may never be a dog that will accept strange dogs. But he can learn to be obedient to you and ignore them to be neutral around them.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Nice pedigree. I would find him a job if he were mine.  Find a working dog club and train him. You have a lot of dog there. IMO, a dog moving forward at something they are concerned about is not nerve. I think you just have a powerful working line male. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression. And he may never be a dog that will accept strange dogs. But he can learn to be obedient to you and ignore them to be neutral around them.


Right, I better get searching for a club then. My partner was very keen to join a club with him before his reactivity started, he just isn’t that confident on how to approach that and obviously the trainers so far clearly weren’t the right ones to teach us. Do you think it’s possible to mould what following his rules will look like in terms of humans? If he’s not fearful I imagine the training will be balanced not positive only? Thank you so much for your insight


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fearful dogs should have balanced training. they thrive on rules. Feeding them cookies and never telling them no is not helpful to them. 

Yes, the training at any WDC would be balanced. . he's basically a green dog and really a good age to start. Google this
"great britian wusv clubs". I see facebook pages, organization pages, etc.



WUSV Team GB | GSDL Working Dog Group of Great Britain


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

roseelle213 said:


> Now my partner took him to a dog trainer without me, specifically GSD only dog trainer. Our dog reacted to another, and she came over to him grabbed his scruff put three fingers on his nose and pushed it down until he was uncomfortable.


My two fully mature dogs are generally pretty social. They don’t have any issues interacting with strange people and are comfortable around them. This right here would have gotten anyone but me full on bitten. Quite frankly I would have also lost my temper. It’s hard to recognize wrong when you don’t know better and this seems to happen a lot in dog training to new people.


roseelle213 said:


> She then tried to take the lead from my partner, pulled upwards on it and our dog turned towards her and air snapped. She handed the lead back and said ‘yes some working lines don’t like that’.


This also is the same as above. Doing this to an unknown dog is asking for a fight. That trainer already knew better and should have done better.


roseelle213 said:


> He then proceeded to bark every time the trainer made eye contact or spoke to him. He settled down while we talked. This trainer has years and years of experience with GSDs.


Dogs may perceive sustained eye contact from a loved one as affection, such as when you are petting your dog. That’s part of evolving alongside humans. They are still mammals, and outside of that context sustained eye contact is generally a threat or challenge. Again something your trainer should have known. Unless they are working your dog in protection or testing them, they shouldn’t be eying your dog.


roseelle213 said:


> Heres where it all went wrong. He told us to put the long line on and let our dog approach and he would ignore him. He approached, cautious body langauage sniffed briefly and then walked away. Trainer ignored him entirely. Now, he approached again a few minutes later, sniffed but this time went stiff and started to raise his body slowly, trainers arm is at his chest, this seemed to freak the trainer out as he then looked down and made eye contact, pushed his hand slowly towards our dog to smell of which he didn’t sniff just stayed tense, then the trainer essentially positioned his arm towards his mouth and our dog took hold. My partner gave him his out command and he let go immediately and returned to his side.


This seemingly starts well. When you’re dog became uncomfortable and started showing signs of stress/aggression, what should have happened is either the trainer backing away or you pulling the dog away. While those options may have led to a blow up, both would have avoided a bite for everyone involved. Again, a rookie mistake led to this bite. It sounds like you are making good progress on your own and have some good ideas of your own. I’d recommend you keep doing what you are doing for now. I wouldn’t force the dog into situations where he has to interact for now. Eventually if you want the dog to allow other people to pet him, you can get there through obedience and control. Your dog has natural suspicion and doesn’t want to interact with other people. He seems to be on the sharper side. Could be good or bad, just depends what you want.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

The more and more I read on this forum, I find it harder and harder to understand what a nervy dog or nervy puppy is.. I’ve seen my puppy do both things people have described as nervy and confident.. I’ve seen her approach and hold her ground with “perceived threat”, I’ve also seen her bark at something in the yard and run back to the porch, I’ve seen her bark at me in the dark in a hoodie and run away.. then reproach after my other dogs know it’s me, she walked into a pet store with exotic animals and black light fish area at 10 weeks old approaching every sight and sound, a gardener walked in our yard unannounced and she thought he was her best friend, week later he came in with a leaf blower on his back and she stood 5 ft from him barking until I came out, I think it was @Jax08 said it’s about rebound and recovery at a young age, I guess I’m just ignorant to the topic and what to look for.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Carter Smith said:


> The more and more I read on this forum, I find it harder and harder to understand what a nervy dog or nervy puppy is.. I’ve seen my puppy do both things people have described as nervy and confident.. I’ve seen her approach and hold her ground with “perceived threat”, I’ve also seen her bark at something in the yard and run back to the porch, I’ve seen her bark at me in the dark in a hoodie and run away.. then reproach after my other dogs know it’s me, she walked into a pet store with exotic animals and black light fish area at 10 weeks old approaching every sight and sound, a gardener walked in our yard unannounced and she thought he was her best friend, week later he came in with a leaf blower on his back and she stood 5 ft from him barking until I came out, I think it was @Jax08 said it’s about rebound and recovery at a young age, I guess I’m just ignorant to the topic and what to look for.


Nerve is a complex topic because it encompasses a bunch of different things. A lot of the descriptions of different dogs is based on the opinion of the individual and what they like in a dog. Broadly speaking, you can look at nerves in terms of environmentals( how a dog handles new places and different surfaces), people(is the dog fearful of new people), sharpness and thresholds(how fast the dog reacts to these adverse stimuli), and recovery ( how fast a dog returns to normal). There’s a lot to the conversation.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Fearful dogs should have balanced training. they thrive on rules. Feeding them cookies and never telling them no is not helpful to them.
> 
> Yes, the training at any WDC would be balanced. . he's basically a green dog and really a good age to start. Google this
> "great britian wusv clubs". I see facebook pages, organization pages, etc.
> ...


My only concern is a lot of them say the dog must have sound temperament, surely if he freaks out at the other people/dogs they may not accept us.. I will contact them!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

roseelle213 said:


> My only concern is a lot of them say the dog must have sound temperament, surely if he freaks out at the other people/dogs they may not accept us.. I will contact them!


.
There is nothing in your description that says he will freak out. Dog aggression is not uncommon. It's controlled thru obedience.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Bearshandler said:


> Nerve is a complex topic because it encompasses a bunch of different things. A lot of the descriptions of different dogs is based on the opinion of the individual and what they like in a dog. Broadly speaking, you can look at nerves in terms of environmentals( how a dog handles new places and different surfaces), people(is the dog fearful of new people), sharpness and thresholds(how fast the dog reacts to these adverse stimuli), and recovery ( how fast a dog returns to normal). There’s a lot to the conversation.


Ya.. and I imagine age is a factor to.. at younger ages certain scenarios would have different outcome than when the pup is mature


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Carter Smith said:


> Ya.. and I imagine age is a factor to.. at younger ages certain scenarios would have different outcome than when the pup is mature


Maturity also plays a role. I would expect to see an 8 week old handle things differently than a 10 month, which would be different than at 2 years. It’s more about maturity than specific ages. Training and exposure also factor into the evaluation.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think both trainer experiences were bad because of inexperienced trainers. You can do either of those things with a new dog but you have to read the dog and react accordingly. If you lift a dog a tiny bit and it starts to load up you have to lower the excitement and let the dog relax.

The problem with an inexperienced trainer is that they see someone like Larry Krohn start training a dog on a slip lead and lifting the dog a bit to establish relationship and leash control. What they don't see is how carefully this happens and how he is reacting to the dog reacting to him and the leash pressure.

Most trainers I know, me included, learned how to handle dogs by making mistakes. I would rather that those mistakes happen with a dog other than mine but it's usually not catastrophic.

It's hard to have a conversation about nerves without hands on the dog. If a dog bites a person, there is a reason. That reason includes fear at the root but that doesn't mean the dog is nervy. A rank dog and a nervy dog may have the exact same response to a stranger approaching or handling the dog inappropriately.

Maturity and experience of the dog also plays a huge role. Adolescent dogs can be all over the place. You just need to be consistent and use your tools to help the dog understand appropriate behavior.

Fortunately, the key to training most dogs, no matter their temperament, is consistency and clear communication. Solid obedience solves most problems. Taking your time and keeping the dog comfortable, not too much pressure for the dog, will keep you safe and help you develop a good relationship.

A good anecdotal story for this thread:

I was walking Valor (27 months old) the other day when we came upon some older teenagers that were kayaking. They were standing by the road waiting to be picked up. They were engaged in tomfoolery, as any self respecting teenager would be, and just as we approached one of the kids started spinning a paddle around like a staff. It was fairly close to us.

Valor jumped back, barked a low, loud bark and then came back in front of me. No tension on the leash but he was tense and loaded up. He was deciding whether this dude was a threat or not. It was new and strange.

Had this dude moved towards Valor at that moment, such as reaching out to let him sniff or something like that, he would have been bit.

I said heel. He came around me to heel and I put him in a down. Now he knows, because of trust in me, past experience and solid training, that it's not a threat. I asked the kids if they would help train my dog and they said sure.

I had them swinging their paddles around while Valor and I were doing tricks and OB stuff with toy rewards for about 30 seconds. Valor was fine so I said to say hi and he went and met all of them.

Here's a situation that could have ended badly without proper handling.

It's also a situation where a strong dog could have looked nervy in a 5 second video. At 8 months, he may have put on a big display barking and lunging or run behind me. At 18 months he may have tried to bite the guy.

Just be consistent and realize that what the dog is feeling at that very moment is what determines your next action. Develop the habit of looking to you for guidance/permission. As your dog matures, so should the training. Aim for having a good dog at 2-3 years old because that is the dog you will live with and expect them to make mistakes when they are young. We all do.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Thank you all for your posts they have really helped an awful lot.
I feel like the majority of his dog problems are due to me not being able to train him correctly to not pull on the leash, are there any tips you have for this?


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## Cigarillo (Dec 20, 2021)

roseelle213 said:


> Thank you all for your posts they have really helped an awful lot.
> I feel like the majority of his dog problems are due to me not being able to train him correctly to not pull on the leash, are there any tips you have for this?


Making the dog “stay” while you go outside first. Then when walk starts, when he pulls turn the opposite direction & have him sit awhile til he settles. This works for me but it takes time & persistence


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is so frustrating. The trainer was deliberately challenging your dog. The eye contact is a challenge. Your partner is the weaker person and the dog did not have confidence that he/she would protect him, and fear bite or not the dog now feels that he has to be on guard. The good news is that he stopped immediately when he was told to. His adrenaline level may still be heightened as it would be if he was in a dog fight. Hard to say though. It sounds like it was quick and stopped quickly. But the walk in the woods with the trainer following did prolong it. I think it would be worse though, if the trainer just went away because that would really reward the bite. Evenso, the situation that caused the bite did stop when the bite occurred, so in a way the bite succeeded and the dog was rewarded. 

There is good positive training and bad positive training. Bad positive training causes dogs to be totally insecure because they do not trust their owners to be in charge of the situation. I don't know that you want to go purely positive with the dog. I think that he is not hopeless, that this can be worked through. I think you are right about being confident, using a muzzle if that makes you feel more confident, and I would do a whole lot of setting this dog up to succeed and praising him for it, both you and your partner. Try to keep it 90-95% setting him up to succeed and praising -- this will build the bond and the confidence in himself and the confidence in both of you. At the same time, at this point, it will not hurt if you steer away from other dogs and people for the most part. He's 16 months old. If you wait until he is 3 years old to start bringing him around people more the only difference is that if you are working with him, you will have a dog with a much better bond with you, a dog that is more likely to take his cues from you. Maybe getting right back up on the horse is the way to go, but it's not like you will miss the rest of the socialization period of you wait a month or two to start taking him back out around people. 

At the end of the day, you want to be able to take your dog to the vet without a muzzle. There has been an unfortunate incident in training. Some folks who are very experienced with GSDs are very experienced with confident buttheads, or high energy working lines, or fear aggressive show lines that are unlikely to bite, but have little experience with a fearful working line or a fearful or confident showline that is likely to bite. They all exist. But some types are more common. When a trainer presses a dog to the point where they bite, the trainer goes home, but you now have a dog that you know will bite if pressed. Not a dog that you know will protect you or your home in burglary, a dog that will bite if he can't run away and someone is coming at/challenging him. What scary is that when you are leashed to your dog, he can't run a away, and 5-6 year olds, they are right at eye level, might run up to hug the dog, staring into his eyes the whole way and get bit in the face. So if you are going to a place where there are likely to be kids, use the muzzle for now. Some dogs naturally give kids a pass, and others do not. Cannot. They react, rather than act. And it is going to be your job to act before your dog reacts. The more you do that. The more you tell your dog to sit or down, and prevent others from getting too close or engaging with your dog, the more comfortable your dog will be in social situations. The more confident your dog will be with you. 

Love your dog. Protect your dog. This was an accident, but you know more about your dog now, so use the knowledge that you gained from this incident.


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## Chuuyas_Wine_Glass (4 mo ago)

That's why I've never used an actual trainer and muddled through everything myself, because the ones by us are idiots about shepherds and other breeds, they're all working with the doodles and labs. Those are some very interesting threads attached here, I've had the same issues trying to figure out nerves because mine can be freaked out by a plastic bag one minute, and hair up on guard about a strange dog or something the next (she's dog reactive, and we've worked on that a ton but I doubt she'll ever be friendly). Even when people come over I tell them to give us six feet of space if she's right by me and let her go to them (I honestly think she picked up on that from going to pet friendly stores and such where everything is kept six feet apart.)
If they're pushing forward like that sticking the hand out or wanting to smother her and baby talk and she's right next to me, she jumps in front and blocks while getting all puffy so we stopped that by having her go to them and them not push.
Fairly recent thing I've been working with her on after I was showing a friend my room I redid and had her next to me, the friend stepped into my room, which my dog had not seen her since she was very young because my friend's dog had parvo, and actually jumped forward and started barking, my friend has a shepherd who's also not a very nice old man and she stepped back out of that six foot radius and just looked in through the door. I corrected her for it, but we didn't test that again. 
But yet she's also a very very friendly dog, as long as it's not her space being intruded and she gets to go up to say hi instead of being forced to say hi. I just treat her as completely reactive unless it's one of my friends who actually know how to act around her and respect her space, and then she respects them and let's them do whatever. So it's been a slow progress of working through whatever this nerves/reactivity thing is with less known people, even though I tried to socialize her a ton when I first got her. Live and learn, and there's always time to continue working I guess.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

roseelle213 said:


> I feel like the majority of his dog problems are due to me not being able to train him correctly to not pull on the leash, are there any tips you have for this?


Cigarillo's advice for this is good but I would add to train him to focus on you as your are walking. Do this but first teaching him to "watch" or make eye contact (you can choose your word for it) then, do this every time before you start walking. Then do it frequently as you walk. Every time he make eye contact, he gets a food treat. As he learns to stay by your side you can increase the amount of time and vary the interval for having him "watch" you. 

I learned this technique here: Karen Pryor Loose Leash Walking There are more details in the link that you might find helpful. You can also teach him to heel off leash, using treats to lure him at first. IMHO, learning to heel off leash also helps a lot with leash walking because it reinforces the need to stay by your side.

It takes time and practice but it really works!


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Thank you for the posts everyone, more great advice there.

I’m still torn on knowing if he’s a stubborn adolescent or a nerve bag at the moment.

we’ve been practicing more patience leaving the house with sits and downs and this is improving. He was also a constant whiner and I’ve been a lot more careful about not rewarding this behaviour.

with kids, I wouldn’t trust him right now, he’s seen plenty and hear lots of kids playing outside now, but he’s barked at small children a couple of times. Not consistently though, and plenty have stared at him. I have a feeling they won’t get a free pass, but I’m not sure because I wouldn’t want to try right now.

it’s fair to say the more I ask from him on a lead walk, the more he seems to get frustrated, whining like a madman sometimes. If I walk in a new environment and let him sniff more, with just occasional watch mes and sits, he’s considerably calmer. When I’m in a field/park or at home I’m seeing him look to me for how to react but not so much pavement walking, this seems very hard for him to focus. He will sit when I ask though and is checking in more in general for food when walking. 

my partner is unfortunately way too anxious to walk him at this point, he’s anxious even when I’m out walking him and this does concern me. If he has no guidance and confident in him now will it be any different when he’s fully mature if I’ve trained him well?

what makes me question his nerves is more in the house, for a while he was running away when I’d call him into the kitchen or bathroom, weirded out by the surface despite it never being an issue when he was small. I’ve overcome this using toys mostly, it took him a few minutes but when a toy was in the room he eventually went in and picked it up. Now he’s fine to go in alone. He still runs away from the bathroom if I try to call him in though. Will only go in on his own terms or for a toy. Is this avoidance behaviour a sign of weak nerves? When we picked him up as a puppy he was very scared, wanted to run away for sure. It took him a while to explore new rooms. But then he was already 13 weeks when we got him, surely he should have been more curious though? 

I do feel a little confused about whether I have a nerve bag or a pushy frustrated adolescent at the moment


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sounds like your dog lacks confidence and doesn't know what to do with himself in circumstances where he gets anxious. He makes his own decisions to relieve the anxiety. When you practice alternative acceptable behaviors he will begin to default to those. When he's consistently rewarded and praised for the acceptable and corrected for a wrong decision his confidence will improve tremendously.
An online trainer that specializes in this type of reactivity (there are several) is Tom Davis - No Bad Dogs.He has a lot of free videos and the long versions are available for a very inexpensive fee.He teaches the owners rather than just handling the dogs himself.Take a look when you get time.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

So it’s been a little while and I thought I’d update and seek some further advice.. 

I have implemented balanced training, and so far so good it seems. He’s much better on the leash pulling wise now, no more chasing at cats, and walking past dogs on leash is getting better each day. I can definately tell the lead plays a huge role in his dog reactions, I’ve had dogs run up to us on a long line recently, if I let him interact and then call him away no issues, if I try to pull him away I get the barking. I think this will continue to improve though now I’m teaching the leash pressure correctly and not allowing him to pull me up to everything he wants to sniff etc. he seems to be understanding pressure means come/ back off not push forward. 

He is now tolerating, dare I say even sometimes wagging his tail, at eye contact from strangers. (I guess the muzzle makes people look a lot more!) I’ve used CC along with corrections. Although I really haven’t had to give many corrections so far.

Indoors im seeing some other little positive signs. He’s choosing to sleep touching me more and being less pushy if he wants something. He can now look out the window at passing dogs without having a meltdown (this is structured I don’t allow him to look if I am not there to train). He definately finds it hardest dog wise when they are directly opposite. If he does become aroused at all he calms down much quicker.

I feel like he’s ready to go the next level with people actually speaking to him/ approaching a step towards him etc. I don’t really have any willing volunteers for this so I’ve contacted a GSD rescue place that rehome dogs but also help with training to prevent rehoming.

Does it sound like I’m doing the right thing here? I am having positive results but it’s a lot more nerve wracking using balanced training when other people are involved. In the UK correcting a dog gets you a slot in **** according to most people! I know the most important part is ultimately the CC, showing him new people are not a threat but a positive thing. I guess I’m concerned his reactions to dogs were mostly just frustration and arousal, but with people if it’s more fear will I make it worse by using corrections?


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Have you considered not expecting him to have to interact with people? People don’t need to talk to the dog or approach it…all it usually takes is asking them not to, or avoiding the situation. It does sound like he’s a bit nervous and CC will help for sure, but so will simply accomodating his temperment.

Sounds like your making great progress. Congrats on that. Does he get a chance to run off leash and be a dog? I think that’s always a good thing to give the dog if possible.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

roseelle213 said:


> feel like he’s ready to go the next level with people actually speaking to him/ approaching a step towards him etc. I don’t really have any willing volunteers for this so I’ve contacted a GSD rescue place that rehome dogs but also help with training to prevent rehoming.


This is not a good idea IMO.It will set him back. Your dog will decide when he's comfortable (if ever) to approach. Nobody needs to touch him.
Correcting a growl or bark is fine.Follow the correction with a command immediately that you can praise/reward him for. He will learn what to do instead and it will become the new default. Ex. No! Watch me!YES!!GOOD BOY!!


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Unfortunately the people aggression situation is pretty dire. Sure I don’t need him to be petted on walks etc, but I do need him to tolerate basic approach’s from people towards me.. he currently wouldn’t tolerate that even if they weren’t directing attention towards him.
We aren’t older people with a family home etc, we are young, we rent and we plan on having a family in the future. We can’t even have family round at the moment without him being shut in another room. 

it probably sounds very harsh but we have already had a fear aggressive dog in the past, and the management involved really took a huge toll on our life’s. We haven’t had a holiday together ever, and we obviously can’t have anyone else even look after our dog right now so we can. We would be in a position again where our lives revolve around keeping our dog comfortable. We have already seriously considered rehoming, and been told no spaces anywhere especially not for a people aggressive dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

My youngest dog virtually never meets strangers or strange dogs on walks; there's just no need or benefit. At home, he meets people on my terms and has developed into a pro at accepting them into the house when he sees I have allowed it.

People seem to want a dog-reactive GSD to progress to being friendly and playing with them. The ideal is aloof and more interested in your hike and you.

You're most of the way there to showing him that strange dogs and people are no big deal and don't need an over the top reaction; that's saved for a stranger on the front walk, then an "enough, good boy!" command ends it.

As far as people agression, when there's no immenent threat, it comes from a place of fear or a leadership/trust vacuum. Balanced training with a consistent but solid correction before they ramp up is key.

-person approaching
-dog stare, tensing up?
-correction, "heel!" or "let's go" or "look at me"
-good boy!
-he continues to stare or looks back, repeat


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

From what you've just posted it seems that you're willing to take the first few steps in the right direction and making really good progress. You're most of the way where you want to be,but it's going slower than you'd like. If you continue to be consistent and show him the alternate behaviors he'll become tolerant.If you were taking lessons to learn a new skill and gave up after the second lesson in a ten week course naturally you'd never improve.
My nervy dog gets along fine because he trusts me not to push him to let other people get in his face. More often than not these days he decides to approach on his own.


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## roseelle213 (5 mo ago)

Thanks guys. I think I got my back up a little there, I’m not someone who got a GSD expecting him to be a golden retriever. I’m not bothered if he isn’t interested in socialising, I just want him to tolerate people approaching me for sure. I don’t ever expect him to be a social butterfly, I’ve grown up with GSDs and they were always aloof which I loved. He is just doing very well and I’m very keen. I don’t expect him to do this all overnight, and I’m fully prepared to stay consistent and keep working!


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