# Male and Female Fighting Each Other!



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Not my dogs, my friend's 2 Dobermans. 

The female, Addison, was adopted 4 months ago, she was almost 9 months old at the time she was adopted. She is now 13 months old and was spayed about 3 weeks ago.

The male, Ace, has been with my friends since he was 9-11 weeks old, he is now 9 months old and is not neutered.

They got along wonderfully in the beginning, never had an issue, well 2 months ago they got in their first fight. I witnessed their second fight that kinda involved my male GSD, Ace got a small cut on his head at the time.

For the past 2 months they have fought off and on, they get alot of separate time, my friends do NILIF with them and they still work on obediance every day.

Saturday night they had the worst fight so far, they were off leash at a park (not a dog park) my friends had a very hard time getting them apart, Addison had a bloody mouth and a gash in her neck, Ace was fine. After that fight, when they got home Addison kept growling at Ace when he was walking around, Addison was in the house when they let Ace outside and when he came back in she attacked him. No one was injured, they crated Addison but she continued to growl while Ace walked by.

They are torn, they love Addison, she's a great dog and they are very attached to her, they do not want to give her up but they also dont want them both to keep getting into fights and getting hurt. They will not crate and rotate because they think it is wrong to crate an animal for that long. My friend's mom said she would take Addison if they cant handle it anymore but they do not want to part with her. 

Both dogs get lots of exercise, daily bike rides, walks, fetch, they get mental stimulation with dog the Everlasting Treatball, Tug-A-Jug, dog puzzles and play "Find It" with treats.

They have an evaluation scheduled for both dogs at Tops Training Facility this friday, they also plan on doing training there with both dogs at separate times.

I made a thread about this 2 months ago, http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...month-old-male-10-month-old-female-fight.html but things are getting worse, any new ideas? Both dogs get along with other dogs, they get along great with my 2 GSDs, why do they keep fighting each other?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen, that is exactly what I went through with Zenzy. 

Maybe it's too early for her. Maybe she is still in pain from the spaying. Was she cut open? Maybe she's still going through hormonal changes? 

For now, I'd keep her separated and give her time to "heal". It's just three weeks ago, these things take time.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I made a thread about this 2 months ago, http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...month-old-male-10-month-old-female-fight.html but things are getting worse, any new ideas? Both dogs get along with other dogs, they get along great with my 2 GSDs, why do they keep fighting each other?


Honestly, they need to rehome her. Things are escalating and it's not likely that it will get better. Sometimes dogs just don't like each other and all this fighting is going to affect them both.

Keep them separate as much as possible for now. If they are together, it should be only for good stuff and always on leash and closely supervised. The more they are allowed to fight, the worse it is going to get.

I'm sorry. I know it's not the solution that your friends want but it is what's best.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Honestly, they need to rehome her. Things are escalating and it's not likely that it will get better. Sometimes dogs just don't like each other and all this fighting is going to affect them both.
> 
> Keep them separate as much as possible for now. If they are together, it should be only for good stuff and always on leash and closely supervised. The more they are allowed to fight, the worse it is going to get.
> 
> I'm sorry. I know it's not the solution that your friends want but it is what's best.


I doubt that they will rehome her, they are too attached, they wont give up on her, they will be going through a trainer but they are seeking more advice on how to get them to get along.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I doubt that they will rehome her, they are too attached, they wont give up on her, they will be going through a trainer but they are seeking more advice on how to get them to get along.


Sometimes it just isn't ment to be. I've been there and done it and it did not end well. I should have never taken her to the US. I know that now. 

I know you are in a bad position and they probably won't listen or even say that it's none of your business but if I were you, I'd tell them that this might be one of the options they have. It doesn't mean that it is the only option but it is ONE option that might change the problem. 

Being attached is all nice and well but sometimes we have to do what needs to be done, everything else is selfish. Sometimes we have to do what is best for the dogs and sometimes it means that we have to let go of a dog and rehome one to keep both safe and happy. 

As for now, I'd rotate them.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I doubt that they will rehome her, they are too attached, they wont give up on her, they will be going through a trainer but they are seeking more advice on how to get them to get along.


That's the thing, Lauren, they may not ever get along and it's already gone too far. Being attacked by Addison is going to affect Ace's dog skills and it's not fair. It's not fair to either of them or to your friends to be constantly afraid of a fight. Everyone is living unbalanced.

The best attempt to get along is what I said... keep them separate unless REALLY good things are happening and even then they have to be under direct supervision to stop anything before it starts. No toys. I wouldn't have them off leash together either since it would be harder to keep them from starting. 

Honestly, if they are going to be stubborn then they need to be doing big time management which may include crate and rotate. The harsh reality is that it IS getting worse and will probably continue to. By stopping it now, you'd be saving both dogs alot of physical and mental damage.

Definitely don't bring Sinister or Malice into the mix. You'd be putting them at risk too.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They do not get toys when they are together, they get fed separately, crated in separate rooms and when one is outside the other is inside. 

They were thinking about muzzleing (sp) Addison when they are out around each other, what do you think about that option? They would get a muzzle that allows her to still drink water and open her mouth a little bit.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Definitely don't bring Sinister or Malice into the mix. You'd be putting them at risk too.


The 4 of them have not been together in 2 weeks. We are getting Ace, Malice and Sinister together tonight but my friend does not want Addison around my dogs.

I do however want to get Addison and Sinister together, she loves Sin, they get along great.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> They were thinking about muzzleing (sp) Addison when they are out around each other, what do you think about that option? They would get a muzzle that allows her to still drink water and open her mouth a little bit.


It's a band aid and could go either way. It could relax her because she doesn't have the option to bite or it could frustrate her more and it does nothing to help what is causing her to go after Ace, that anguish is still there and it's not healthy for her to stay in that state of mind.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I have a multi-dog pack of both sexes with all spayed or neutered minus one female. She is now same sex aggressive and I crate, kennel and rotate all nine of my dogs. It is a HUGE undertaking, but it can be done. 

Even with my dogs having been separated totally for three months now, the female grumble through barriers (crates, kennels and doors). I will never take a chance with putting all my females together again. My spayed females and neutered males can get along together, but by adding the one intact female in to the mix, all heck breaks out. She gets along beautifully with the males and those are her "company" so that she is not alone except for rare instances. 

It can be done, but it is a lifetime committment and a huge challenge on a day to day basis.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Maybe their personalities are both dominant and that is why they cant get along?

They dont want to give up and I dont want them to give up either, I always think about Rogue and how I gave him up and I dont want them to feel that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, I had a foster male. Neutered who didn't get along with my intact female. It did take a toll on the whole pack so I rigerously separated him from the rest of the pack for two months until I, myself had better control of him. He had several issues going on that needed to be resolved first. 

After that I could introduce him to the youngest male and the female foster and have them outside together but when those three were outside my oldest female and male were inside. 

It does take work and you need to manage. If you have a good setup at home it is possible. With our last place it was nearly impossible to keep them as separated as I can keep them here. 

I am getting another intact female soon and I will introduce her slowly to the pack. Knowing, if it doesn't work, that I can keep her completely separated, either upstairs, in the basement or the sunroom. 

However, it not only takes a toll on the dogs but on the "family" as well. I know my husband was royally annoyed having to do it in the first place. 



WVGSD said:


> I have a multi-dog pack of both sexes with all spayed or neutered minus one female. She is now same sex aggressive and I crate, kennel and rotate all nine of my dogs. It is a HUGE undertaking, but it can be done.
> 
> Even with my dogs having been separated totally for three months now, the female grumble through barriers (crates, kennels and doors). I will never take a chance with putting all my females together again. My spayed females and neutered males can get along together, but by adding the one intact female in to the mix, all heck breaks out. She gets along beautifully with the males and those are her "company" so that she is not alone except for rare instances.
> 
> It can be done, but it is a lifetime committment and a huge challenge on a day to day basis.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Dobermans are a breed known for dog aggression. It is usually same sex aggression but sometimes they don't discriminate. It's not that they're "bad" or "mean..." it's just in the genes.

I think it's time to rehome one of the dogs, particularly since there seems to be a good home ready for one of them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Maybe their personalities are both dominant and that is why they cant get along?
> 
> They dont want to give up and I dont want them to give up either, I always think about Rogue and how I gave him up and I dont want them to feel that.


That is why my bitch and the foster fought and why I had them separated. Just a hint of a challenge distrought the balance of the pack.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Dobermans are a breed known for dog aggression. It is usually same sex aggression but sometimes they don't discriminate. It's not that they're "bad" or "mean..." it's just in the genes.
> 
> I think it's time to rehome one of the dogs, particularly since there seems to be a good home ready for one of them.


That's the thing though, my friend's mom has a 7 year old female Doberman that still has problems with her Woblers, that is who would take Addison.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

So sorry to hear that the Dobe's are not getting along. I have always looked forward to your pictures of all the dogs when they have a play date. I hope that they can find a way to keep Addison and to get things to work out between her an Ace. I wish them luck in their search for an answer to the problem that they can feel good with.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

This is already Addison's second home, correct?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> This is already Addison's second home, correct?


This is her 3rd home that we know of. 

The girl that they got Addison from only had her for 2 months, so she got her when she was 7 months old. We do not know how many owners she had before that.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Unfortunately this is why I asked awhile back if they were actually getting along, because generally, once this kind of thing starts, it does not stop. It may start off infrequent, but eventually will get more and more frequent and the incidents will drop from months apart to weeks, to days, and before long they can't ever be together.

It doesn't always have to do with dominance, it doesn't always have to do with training, mental stimulation (those puzzles are a waste of money, once they figure them out there is no mental stimulation, just repetition) and it definitely doesn't always have anything to do with exercise. These things can help but won't prevent or change what's already occuring for the most part. It's ALWAYS a good idea to see out a trainer, they should be going to classes anyway, but to alter the behavior of the two in regards to them fighting is likely going to be money down the drain.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> Unfortunately this is why I asked awhile back if they were actually getting along, because generally, once this kind of thing starts, it does not stop. It may start off infrequent, but eventually will get more and more frequent and the incidents will drop from months apart to weeks, to days, and before long they can't ever be together.
> 
> It doesn't always have to do with dominance, it doesn't always have to do with training, mental stimulation (those puzzles are a waste of money, once they figure them out there is no mental stimulation, just repetition) and it definitely doesn't always have anything to do with exercise. These things can help but won't prevent or change what's already occuring for the most part. It's ALWAYS a good idea to see out a trainer, they should be going to classes anyway, but to alter the behavior of the two in regards to them fighting is likely going to be money down the drain.


They got along great the first 2 months they were together, there were no problems, no fighting, they were getting along wonderfully. The fighting started 2 months ago and they had spats every other week but seemed to play and get along still, these past 2 weeks had been terrible and the fights are very bad.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I didn't know that doberman's are known for dog aggression.

I can't add anything but I hope your friend works things out.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Caledon said:


> I didn't know that doberman's are known for dog aggression.
> 
> I can't add anything but I hope your friend works things out.


I knew they have a high risk for being same sex aggressive, but both dogs enjoy being around other dogs. They both get along with my 2 GSDs, they get along with her mom's female Doberman, they get along with 2 labs (male and female) and an Australian Shepherd mix. They are fine with other dogs, they just dont get along with each other.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Dobermans are a breed known for dog aggression. It is usually same sex aggression but sometimes they don't discriminate. It's not that they're "bad" or "mean..." it's just in the genes.
> 
> I think it's time to rehome one of the dogs, particularly since there seems to be a good home ready for one of them.


I agree.

Fights between males and females aren't as common as same-sex fighting, but I have noticed that Dobermans and Pit Bulls will fight each other irrespective of gender... so it must be something in the genes.

If the owners are unwilling to place one of the dogs, perhaps Prozac could be tried as a last resort. It sounds like they've done all the right things, and yet the problem remains.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

There is almost always a honeymoon period between new dogs. Once they start settling in and feeling gamey, their true personality will come out. Regarding only fighting eachother - don't count on it staying that way. Give it time. and the more they fight eachother, the more the behavior (fighting) will become ingrained; possibly leading to other dog fights.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Rerun said:


> There is almost always a honeymoon period between new dogs. Once they start settling in and feeling gamey, their true personality will come out. Regarding only fighting eachother - don't count on it staying that way. Give it time. and the more they fight eachother, the more the behavior (fighting) will become ingrained; possibly leading to other dog fights.


Agreed. Seen it first hand.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> They were thinking about muzzleing (sp) Addison when they are out around each other, what do you think about that option? They would get a muzzle that allows her to still drink water and open her mouth a little bit.


If they're considering this I think they should both be muzzled when they're together, not just one of them. If the other dog goes after Addison she'll be defenseless.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

They are both very young. This is why we suggest people do not get two puppies at the same time. My suggestion is to have addison and ace on longlines, attached to their person. When they notice any posturing, any 'eagle eyes' anything that is not considered 'polite' in the doggie world, the initiator is immediatly corrected. Be it a time out in the crate, etc. I think Addison needs to be kept away from Ace while she is healing, she is grumpy right now and with good reason.
Watch them interact. Who is instigating, who is annoying the other one.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If they're considering this I think they should both be muzzled when they're together, not just one of them. If the other dog goes after Addison she'll be defenseless.


I thought that as well.

My friends however believe that Addison is the one that starts the fights every time and that Ace wont go after her while she's muzzled.

Just wanted to add that although they love Addison, it is clear that they would chose Ace over her everytime and from an outsider looking in, you can tell they love him more. Do you think Addison can sense that?


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sorry, wrong thread


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I thought that as well.
> 
> My friends however believe that Addison is the one that starts the fights every time and that Ace wont go after her while she's muzzled.
> 
> Just wanted to add that although they love Addison, it is clear that they would chose Ace over her everytime and from an outsider looking in, you can tell they love him more. Do you think Addison can sense that?


You know...generally when a dog is surpressed by another, what do you think happens when he finds out that he's got the upper hand because she can't defend herself? 

I wouldn't try to muzzle one but not the other. It's asking for trouble.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I knew they have a high risk for being same sex aggressive, but both dogs enjoy being around other dogs. They both get along with my 2 GSDs, they get along with her mom's female Doberman, they get along with 2 labs (male and female) and an Australian Shepherd mix. They are fine with other dogs, they just dont get along with each other.


Some dogs simply don't get along, just like some people just don't get along. You won't have good success in trying to force two people who hate each other to get along, and the same goes for dogs. 



LaRen616 said:


> My friends however believe that Addison is the one that starts the fights every time and that Ace wont go after her while she's muzzled.


It can be very, VERY difficult to tell which dog starts things. Dogs have a very subtle language that we humans cannot hope to understand with 100% certainty. My two males get in occasional little scuffles and my hubby always blames it on Apollo. It makes sense, because Apollo is a bit of a bully and is much more assertive and abrupt. HOWEVER, what hubby doesn't always see is that Nova goes up to Apollo, posturing (essentially giving him the finger). Apollo is like, "Oh no you did NOT just do that" and snarks at him. It's like a little kid that sticks his tongue out at the other little kid and then gets punched in the eye. Sometimes Apollo just gets frustrated at freak-fest like behavior from Nova, too. Maybe Nova is in a nervous/agitated state. Who's fault is that? Apollo's, for wanting a stable pack, or Nova's, for being himself?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I gave Ashley the link to this thread and told her to register with the forum.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I gave Ashley the link to this thread and told her to register with the forum.


If she'd like, I can also refer her to a friend of mine who is VERY experienced in Dobermans (owning, showing, breeding) and has owned some with some pretty serious DA and has managed them using crate/rotate without them being cooped up too long.


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

Alright, so here is the deal with Ace and Addison... They get along great except for the three fights since we have taken Addison in along with Addison growling at Ace in certain situations. They play with each other in the backyard (always supervised) this includes chasing one another, playing with a ball and/or sticks. Rarely, if ever, has there ever been so much a growl while in the yard. Inside of the house, however, when Addison is laying down and Ace walks near her or even if he is on the floor playing with a toy and moves backwards in her direction she growls at him. When they eat (Ace usually finishes first) she will growl if he starts to walk past her. Both Anthony and I can touch her and take her food away without a problem. They are both active dogs like Lauren said and they do get their alone time with both Anthony and I (I will take one dog running for an hour while the other one goes for a walk or bike ride in a different direction). They also sleep in different rooms. Neither dog has ever showed agression towards another dog and Addison plays well with other female dogs. Both Addison and Ace will curl up next to one another and fall asleep at the end of the day, so I do not understand where these spurts of aggression are coming from.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

aneiper said:


> Alright, so here is the deal with Ace and Addison... They get along great except for the three fights since we have taken Addison in along with Addison growling at Ace in certain situations. They play with each other in the backyard (always supervised) this includes chasing one another, playing with a ball and/or sticks. Rarely, if ever, has there ever been so much a growl while in the yard. Inside of the house, however, when Addison is laying down and Ace walks near her or even if he is on the floor playing with a toy and moves backwards in her direction she growls at him. When they eat (Ace usually finishes first) she will growl if he starts to walk past her. Both Anthony and I can touch her and take her food away without a problem. They are both active dogs like Lauren said and they do get their alone time with both Anthony and I (I will take one dog running for an hour while the other one goes for a walk or bike ride in a different direction). They also sleep in different rooms. Neither dog has ever showed agression towards another dog and Addison plays well with other female dogs. Both Addison and Ace will curl up next to one another and fall asleep at the end of the day, so I do not understand where these spurts of aggression are coming from.


Thanks Ash for posting! 

Ummmmm you were supposed to call me yesterday! So can we get Ace, Sin and Malice together tonight? PLEASE.


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

lol, oppps. Phones work both ways.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

aneiper said:


> Alright, so here is the deal with Ace and Addison... They get along great except for the three fights since we have taken Addison in along with Addison growling at Ace in certain situations. They play with each other in the backyard (always supervised) this includes chasing one another, playing with a ball and/or sticks. Rarely, if ever, has there ever been so much a growl while in the yard. Inside of the house, however, when Addison is laying down and Ace walks near her or even if he is on the floor playing with a toy and moves backwards in her direction she growls at him. When they eat (Ace usually finishes first) she will growl if he starts to walk past her. Both Anthony and I can touch her and take her food away without a problem. They are both active dogs like Lauren said and they do get their alone time with both Anthony and I (I will take one dog running for an hour while the other one goes for a walk or bike ride in a different direction). They also sleep in different rooms. Neither dog has ever showed agression towards another dog and Addison plays well with other female dogs. Both Addison and Ace will curl up next to one another and fall asleep at the end of the day, so I do not understand where these spurts of aggression are coming from.


Can you see a difference from before and after her being spayed?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

aneiper said:


> lol, oppps. Phones work both ways.


Uh huh! 

I see how it is! 

What time is the Eval on friday? Can I come too?


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Could you describe the fights? Was there serious aggression? Were either of the dogs hurt? What kind of injuries? How did you break up the fight? 

My two male dogs get along well, but they have had a few little skirmishes. There is serious growling, teeth snapping, and posturing, and my GSD did get a nick on his muzzle during one of them. I am able to break them up verbally, however. In one instance, the Rottweiler continued to target the GSD and I had to leash him to redirect his attention, but both soon forgot about the incident and things returned to normal.

If the dogs are always supervised and the fights are not overly serious, and you are able to break up the fights with minimal intervention, it sounds like a situation that can be managed without rehoming one of the dogs, if you are committed. 

Ideally, fights should be able to be broken up with just verbal commands. Both dogs need to learn a command that basically means "drop everything and pay attention to me. NOW!" You do not want to have to physically break up fights for a few reasons. First and foremost, for your own physical safety: it is all to easy for one of the dogs to (accidentally or on purpose) redirect onto a human getting into the mix. Secondly, often grabbing a dog by the collar (or even a leash) actually increases his drive, and his aggression escalates. Pulling him away makes him want that thing he's after (in this case, the other dog) even more.

The key is to learn to interpret their signs and break things up BEFORE they start. There is often some subtle posturing that occurs before anything physical or even before any growling starts. If you can interrupt and redirect at that point in time and prevent a skirmish from happening in the first place, that is key.

Here is my experienced Doberman friend's blog. I'm sure she would be happy to help if you contacted her with questions: A Prairie Dobe Companion


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

The three fights that I had mentioned were bad enough were they had to be pulled apart, the last one was the worst because we could not get them apart even while pulling them apart (I know that is dangerous). Usually a stern "no!" will do the trick when the tension is building, and we just separate the two for a little while and that will be that. The injuries aren't too bad; at most one dog will have a little cut that isn't deep or too big. There is an extreme amount of aggression though but again with little to no injury. Ace will sometimes submit and lay on his back but that doesn't always end a fight.
For the most part, we have learned their signs, but this last fight took us all by surprise. They were just running around with each other like they always do and then they were going at it. I am confused because I really feel there weren't any signs to be seen that night.
Personality wise for Addison, there hasn't been much of a change since she was spayed. She is very sweet and loving to people and other dogs, it just seems to be Ace she has aggression towards.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

aneiper said:


> The three fights that I had mentioned were bad enough were they had to be pulled apart, the last one was the worst because we could not get them apart even while pulling them apart (I know that is dangerous). Usually a stern "no!" will do the trick when the tension is building, and we just separate the two for a little while and that will be that. The injuries aren't too bad; at most one dog will have a little cut that isn't deep or too big. There is an extreme amount of aggression though but again with little to no injury. Ace will sometimes submit and lay on his back but that doesn't always end a fight.
> For the most part, we have learned their signs, but this last fight took us all by surprise. They were just running around with each other like they always do and then they were going at it. I am confused because I really feel there weren't any signs to be seen that night.
> Personality wise for Addison, there hasn't been much of a change since she was spayed. *She is very sweet and loving to people and other dogs, it just seems to be Ace she has aggression towards.*


I agree with this, Addy is great with Sinister and with Malice.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

aneiper said:


> The three fights that I had mentioned were bad enough were they had to be pulled apart, the last one was the worst because we could not get them apart even while pulling them apart (I know that is dangerous). Usually a stern "no!" will do the trick when the tension is building, and we just separate the two for a little while and that will be that. The injuries aren't too bad; at most one dog will have a little cut that isn't deep or too big. There is an extreme amount of aggression though but again with little to no injury. Ace will sometimes submit and lay on his back but that doesn't always end a fight.
> For the most part, we have learned their signs, but this last fight took us all by surprise. They were just running around with each other like they always do and then they were going at it. I am confused because I really feel there weren't any signs to be seen that night.
> Personality wise for Addison, there hasn't been much of a change since she was spayed. She is very sweet and loving to people and other dogs, it just seems to be Ace she has aggression towards.


The problem is, we can't really give you any advise based on the posts. It does sound like my intact bitch that always got into with the neutered foster. Sometimes bitches can be just that... bitches... but unless we can see the dynamic between the two and how you handle the situation its hard to give any advise at all.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know your having an eval the end of the week, (and I highly encourage that!),,sounds like Addison is a typical bitch who wants to rule the roost and well, be in charge of everything Ace. 

It's not her job. right now, I'd muzzle both of them in the house. Her 'growling' just because he walks past her or backs up near her is obviously UNacceptable..

I don't have any solid suggestions for you, you probably wouldn't like mine, (I'd be "on" her butt for even thinking about giving Ace crap)..

I really commend you for wanting this to work , and I think an eval is the best way to go right now,,but as one poster said, there are just some dogs that can not live together harmoniously You intentions are good, and I hope it works out for you all


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Honestly, they need to rehome her. Things are escalating and it's not likely that it will get better.


This. Rehome her to a place with no other dogs. I went through this with a dobe I was fostering and now I have a reactive dog. Do it now before it causes more problems for both dogs with fear aggression.

The foster and Jax would play non stop also but if he got cornered or anxious, he would turn on the nearest dog. It ended with Jax (at 1 year old) sending him to an ER vet for 13 staples after several incidences. Now she is fear reactive and it's been a long road with her.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I know your having an eval the end of the week, (and I highly encourage that!),,sounds like Addison is a typical bitch who wants to rule the roost and well, be in charge of everything Ace.
> 
> It's not her job. right now, I'd muzzle both of them in the house. Her 'growling' just because he walks past her or backs up near her is obviously UNacceptable..
> 
> ...


This.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

aneiper, I am so sorry that your second puppy isn't working out for you, but I really commend you for coming and joining the forum in search of help. I know you want this to work out, and I hope that the trainer you hired will be able to assist you. I can't say enough good things about a one on one trainer, it has helped me with my dogs tremendously (reactivity issues) because the trainer can see a lot of the things I am missing, and can be objective. 

Best of luck, you've already gotten some great advice, and remember there is no shame in finding a better home for your puppy if that is what it takes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Absolutely no shame in finding a home for your puppy that is better suited for her! Doing right for you animal is never wrong and you certainly would not be the first person to place a dog in another home because of fighting.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I know you all want her to rehome Addison but they are not ready to give up yet, they will go for their eval on friday, they will work with a trainer, they will do everything they can to make it work, after they have tried everything if it doesn't work then they will find Addy a great home but for right now they are not ready to give up on her. 

I was also wrong on my OP, I apologize,  they have been in 3 physical fights within the course of 2 months, with some growls here and there.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is the best you can do. Sounds like they are having a good head on their shoulder.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That is the best you can do. Sounds like they are having a good head on their shoulder.


They are great people. They've helped me out alot, I am lucky to have them both in my life, Ashley is one of my best friends, if not my best friend, she's family to me and she means alot to me, I dont think I tell Ashley that enough. 

Not to mention that Ace and Addy are my Dobie Babies, I LOVE them! :wub:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> I know you all want her to rehome Addison but they are not ready to give up yet, they will go for their eval on friday, they will work with a trainer, they will do everything they can to make it work, after they have tried everything if it doesn't work then they will find Addy a great home but for right now they are not ready to give up on her.


Best of Luck to them!

I think the concern many of us had (or at least I know I did) is that people try to work through and work through and work through issues and if it doesn't get better then decide to look at rehoming. The problem is that now things are worse than when you started and the possibility of rehoming is less likely because it has gone on too long and more damage has been done. 

Not saying that it will happen in this situation (and I sincerely hope it doesn't) but sometimes the best way to improve a situation is to completely change it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Best of Luck to them!
> 
> I think the concern many of us had (or at least I know I did) is that people try to work through and work through and work through issues and if it doesn't get better then decide to look at rehoming. The problem is that now things are worse than when you started and the possibility of rehoming is less likely because it has gone on too long and more damage has been done.
> 
> Not saying that it will happen in this situation (and I sincerely hope it doesn't) but sometimes the best way to improve a situation is to completely change it.


But you know why? Because in many places you get pressured into the believe that you are a horrible, horrible dog owner if you even say the words "I want to rehome my dog". 

Not only online but also in real life. It is so hard to talk about rehoming a dog that sometimes you are literally frowned upon. 
They put you on the same podestal as all those people that dump their pets at the shelter and it doesn't matter if you have a valid reason to actually rehome your dog. 

And people talk. 

I can see why so many people try and try and try and try because they feel pressured into trying. 

People have to get a grip that not everybody, who is rehoming a dog, is a bad person. 

I experienced it on post, with military families. Because so many are irresponsible owners and dump their pets, those that have a valid reason don't even get to explain themselves. They take the "forever home" way too serious and no matter whats the reason, it's just not good enough. Heck, there is no reason at all because there can never be a better home out there than the home the dog is currently residing in.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs. K - Nobody has told her she is a horrible dog owner. Why are you even bringing that in to the topic? There is no reason for that rant other than to change the topic of this thread.

Lauren - It's not that we want her to rehome Addie. We just are speaking from our own experiences. We truly wish your friend and her dogs the very best and hope the trainer can help them. Just want her to know that there is no shame in choosing to rehome her to a place with no other dogs when it is best for all involved.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Let's keep this thread on the topic of Addison and Ace. If you want to discuss rehoming in general and what the public does or does not think, start a new thread.

Thank you.


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

Thank-you everybody for your advice, I really do appreciate it even though it is difficult to give advice to a specific situation over the internet. 

I would also like to say that we will exhaust every option to make the situation at home a happy and safe one for all of the dogs and people, even if that means sending Addison to a new home (my mom). The only reason I am not jumping to that option right away is because Addison is a great dog that we love very much and would like to be able to keep, not because I feel pressured even though it unfortunately may be the case in other situations. 

I guess I am wondering if there are any training exercises that I could be using to help with Addison and Ace. 

Another question I had, if at all possible to answer, is does Ace have to do anything to aggravate Addison? There have been a few times when Ace is playing on the ground with a toy, or even just laying there, but not facing Addison at all and he will move a little bit and she will growl at him. I have been told to look for signs such as eye contact or posture but there isn’t any here. What else could we be missing?

Thank-you again.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Come on Ya'll, this is my bestie!

Give a little assisstance!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Queen Lauren, is it? LOL

It's really hard to say what is setting it off. With Jax and Sierra, it could be anything. Last night, Jax moved to fast and Sierra reacted to that by moving just as quickly towards her. And Jax lit into her. Then, while I was making the bed, Sierra was standing in the door looking like she was going to come in. Jax started after her but I caught her.

It could be resource guarding, it could be your girl just being a girl, it could be anything. Sometimes the signs are so small that we don't see them. Just keep watching body language and hopefully you'll find a trigger.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I will respond tomorrow... on my phone now and I'm too long winded for a phone response, lol.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

aneiper, this is what a private trainer is so good for, he or she will be able to observe the dogs interactions and has the experience and objectivity to pick up on signs you may not be seeing. If I were you, I would do my best to keep the dogs separated until you have the session with your trainer. After you have his/her observations, you will have more information upon which to plan your next move.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Sorry, meant to come back to this last night and instead had to clean up a mud covered puppy. Stupid rain!



Good_Karma said:


> aneiper, this is what a private trainer is so good for, he or she will be able to observe the dogs interactions and has the experience and objectivity to pick up on signs you may not be seeing. If I were you, I would do my best to keep the dogs separated until you have the session with your trainer. After you have his/her observations, you will have more information upon which to plan your next move.


^ Good advice here. The best thing to do is to make sure that they are 100% under control when together and that every interaction between them is 150% positive.

My most recent experience is a bit different in that my foster was fear aggressive with my dogs and would try to attack them anytime they got in her bubble, even if they weren't paying attention to her.

I kept her completely separate from them for a few weeks. During that time, we'd have a couple of small training sessions a day where I was doing LAT (Look at That) with her and encouraging her to observe my dogs and she got treated and praised heavily for looking at them and not reacting. She was behind a gate so she couldn't get to them although I did my very best to avoid any negative reaction to them at all at this time so I had to keep her focus on me. This was the only exposure she had to them for about a week.

The next week, she would be in the same room with them but again, engaged with me. I would be asking her to do basic obedience stuff and she was being praised and treated heavily for being calm near the other dogs. Eventually I started doing commands with all 3 of them at the same time. Lots of clicks, treats and praise.

Everytime she saw my dogs, lots of good things were happening to her until she eventually saw that being around my dogs is a good thing. Now, she can be loose with them in the house and yard without a problem. 

The situation is a little different because her aggression was from fear but you can certainly try the same approach. I wouldn't be correcting her right now (small verbal corrections are ok - no prong, choke or e-collar) and absolutely no toys which can cause a fight.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

aneiper said:


> I guess I am wondering if there are any training exercises that I could be using to help with Addison and Ace.


ANY training exercises would be good... you want to get both dogs as obedient as possible, and get them used to immediately obeying voice commands with lots of distractions. (Start with low distractions, and work up to high distractions). As I stated before, you want to be able to break them apart with just a verbal command, if possible. There should be a word that you use that means "stop what you're doing and pay attention!" Find out what their very favorite, favorite thing is (You'll have to work with each dog individually). Whenever they get that thing, say your command word. They will learn to associate their favorite thing (i.e. a nice big raw hunk of meat) with your command word. Eventually, it won't matter whether you actually HAVE the favorite thing, they'll know the command word.



> Another question I had, if at all possible to answer, is does Ace have to do anything to aggravate Addison? There have been a few times when Ace is playing on the ground with a toy, or even just laying there, but not facing Addison at all and he will move a little bit and she will growl at him. I have been told to look for signs such as eye contact or posture but there isn’t any here. What else could we be missing?


The canine language is so confusing. In the toy situation, the nearly invisible conversation could've gone something like this:

Addison: "Give me that toy."
Ace: "But.... it's my toy. I don't want to."
Attack ensues.

You might not have actually SEEN Addison ask for/demand the toy, but that doesn't mean it didn't occur.

Sometimes it could just be that Addison feels the need to assert her dominance, and it's nothing Ace does at all. That's how it is with my Rottie and GSD males. Sometimes Apollo will walk over and stand over Nova, like 'Hey, remember, I'm the boss of you." In this situation, I would verbally correct Apollo.

Sometimes Nova decides to challenge Apollo's authority and walks up to him, posturing (very stiff posture: head/neck held high, tail wagging stiffly, walking with jerky movements, etc.). Then, it's pretty dang obvious that Nova's being an idiot and asking for it. In that situation, I would verbally correct Nova.

There usually is one overall trigger that starts most (but not all) of the fights. With my dogs, it's actually me. Apollo adores me and doesn't feel like any of the other dogs should be allowed to get attention. It's something that's an ongoing issue and we're constantly working on. The WRONG thing to do (at least with Apollo) is for someone to grab him and drag him away from me... that just hypes him up and he starts giving evil eyes (he's a MASTER at evil eyes) to the other dog. All it takes is ONE evil eye from Apollo, and Nova will back off and leave me, essentially giving Apollo what he wants (me not giving any other dogs attention).

What I do instead is use my body to move Apollo away. I don't use my hands and push, because being a Rott he will turn it into a game of "who can lean the hardest." I just gently but firmly walk in the direction I want him to go, and when he's a suitable distance from Nova, I will ask for a down and tell him to stay, upon which time I will return to Nova and give him attention. (An alternative to this is to teach your dog a "place" command. Have a rug/dog bed/blanket in the house that is that dog's specific spot, and when you give the place command, he is to immediately go to that spot and lay down). 

It's really, really difficult to tell what starts a fight because not only do dogs have subtle body language, they also have the capability to read emotions. Sometimes, Nova is simply in a nervous state of mind, and Apollo decides to take it upon himself to fix the situation. In these types of situations, I need to do a better job of letting Apollo know that it's NOT his job to correct instability in the pack, it is MY job. 

I hope I'm making sense. It has been my experience that fights are not always between two dominant dogs. In my house, they are between the most dominant (who tends to be a bit of a bully) and the most submissive (who occasionally has moments of craziness).


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

*"When they eat (Ace usually finishes first) she will growl if he starts to walk past her."*

*"Another question I had, if at all possible to answer, is does Ace have to do anything to aggravate Addison?"*

In the OP, it says you do practice NILIF. Not sure if you're already doing this....but another excellent opportunity to help reinforce desired behaviors is _after feeding_. Not only before...(NILIF)...but also directly after each and every meal, teach Ace to remain in the down position, since he finishes eating first...._make him wait in his place_ until Addison too is finished. Perhaps doing it that way might help show Addison, in a very primal way, that you do have things under control; with all the other things you're doing too.....she is still so young and inexperienced.....she's been with you for only four months......(so I'm one of those kinds who'd keep trying....I wouldn't give up)........she may begin to understand and see that "handling" Ace is really not her job. Best wishes and the very highest hopes for you and family.


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

Again, thank-you for all of your advice. We have used most of the advice you have said and it seems to be working. We have only brought the dogs together for good happy things (like walks), we have taken toys out of the picture for now, and when they are both off leash they both were a muzzle. Addison. We will try to show Addison that we are the ones in charge and that she isn't by using NILF a little bit more (especially around the food). 



Also, today is evaluation day for the both of them with a trainer who is very experienced with Dobermans so we are extremely excited. I will let you all know how that goes.



Thank-you again!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Good luck Ashley!!!!!

Let me know how it goes!!!!!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

aneiper said:


> Also, today is evaluation day for the both of them with a trainer who is very experienced with Dobermans so we are extremely excited. I will let you all know how that goes.


I love hearing about trainer evaluations! I'll be sure to look for your update.
Sheilah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good Luck Ashley! Please let us know how it goes! Wishing you and your kids the best!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I heard from Ashley last night, she called after their eval, she really liked Tops and the trainer she worked with, he gave her some really helpful tips and she is going to go through them for training.

I dont remember everything she said so I will make sure to tell her to update so you can all know what the trainer told, what methods to use and what she saw at the Tops training facility. I know she said there were GSDs boarded there, she said I can go with her next friday! 

Now I want to take Sin and Malice there for an Eval!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm glad that they are going through a trainer first. Alice was my first female and she was to put it mildly, a elephant's rear end at that stage in her life.

She was almost two when Zoey came to live with us. So things were and still are a bit interesting with two wannabe in charge females in the house. I still have to maintain leadership excercises/roles. Yep, two years later....I consider it a lifestyle thing.

Good luck, and the only thing I can add is treat both dogs the same, pet one dog at a time and look for things that create competition and eliminate them.

Sorry, I came late to this one but am looking forward to the updates.


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## aneiper (Oct 11, 2011)

On Friday we took Ace and Addison to Tops in Grayslake and I have to say I was very impressed and excited when we got there. The mazing pictures of the dogs on the walls that they have worked with and the agility course were just awesome.
We had a one-on-one evaluation with a trainer, Lewis, who took the dogs one at a time for evaluation. He could tell that Addison was a VERY stubborn dog and that she would need a lot of work, but that she clearly was not an aggressive dog. He also said that Ace was a very big “pleaser” and that the two were polar opposites. Like most of you warned me, Lewis also warned us that even with the training things may not work out and to keep in the back of our minds that we may have to send Addison to her new home. We have signed up for a couple private lessons with both dogs and Lewis for now, even though Ace doesn’t need the training, Lewis would still like us to work with them both to help correct the situation. When Addison to obey more, we will then enroll them in obedience classes with other dogs.

I would also like to add that Ace and Addison had a great time at the beach the other day with Lauren616's Sinister and Malice and had absolutely no problems.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you for the update Ashley! It sounds like you are on the right track. I wish you great success!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They did great yesterday, I should have brought my camera!

I get to see my Dobie babies tonight! :wub:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Pictures of the Dobies that we are talking about. 

Ace :wub:









Addison


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

They are both gorgeous, I so hope that things get worked out. Looking at them brings back memories of my Max. Have a fun and happy play date tonight.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Great start Ashley, I hope the training helps, and hope you stick around and keep us updated on their progress!


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## Calindy (Feb 19, 2008)

I hope it all works out. I am going thru a similiar thing with my 2 females, a 12 yr old Belgian Malinios, and a 2 yr old foster GSD, that became our dog. They were together for 4 MONTHS before a fight happened, and it was a bad one! The Mailnios had to have surgery and a drain. Apart, they are the sweetest and most gentle dogs, but they just do not get along. We almost rehomed the younger one, but we were very attached. So now we have to play "musical dogs," it is doable, but I sure wish we did not have to do it. I just will not risk another fight, it happens so quick.

By the way, if they happen to fight again, and you have 2 people, each person takes each dog by the back legs and pulls them apart that way. It will keep you from getting a redirected bite. I can attest, it works well. I have done it that way by myself, by pulling one dog (the aggressor) away by the back legs.


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