# Leo



## Ceph (Mar 28, 2007)

I was wondering if you all could critique my baby for me







He's 6.5 months old in this picture...and it's the first one of him I have been able to get where I didnt have to hold him in place.










And because I always like to know how wrong I am I thought I would let you all know what I see...and then tell me what I am seeing right and wrong.

What I like the most about him is his head, his movement and his rear end. He's got great expression and I just adore his back skull and ear placement...I think he is going to have a very manly head when he gets older. Good pasterns, good angulation in the rear, and when he moves he _trucks_ - very forward movement, usually at the end of the leash usuing alot of rear end to propell him forwad...it's just a very powerful trot. His rear legs are very straight as well...wheras Ruby is just now starting to loose the narrowness in her chest and rear end (maturity is coming! Slowly...but surely!)

What I dont like is his pigment (not snow nose, but it could be better), his shoulder is a little upriught, his topline isnt as good as Ruby's and his tail set is a little low.

His schnoz is a little long right now...he's got that kind of wonky growth spurt where things are growing and the rest hasnt caught up 

He's a cool little dude though - lots and lots of drive, he should do real well in SchH









Here's a recent pic (but not a great one) of Ruby...she's in heat so she's looking a little blah and a little nekkid, but because of a recent gromming job her topline is pretty obvious


















I usually like to look them up for comparison because I see alot of what she has a problem with he improves on and vice versa.
Thanks!

~Cate


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Ruby has the most pleasing structure to me. Her head is wonderful, she's very harmonious, nice topline, she looks like she could work all day and not twitch an ear. Would love to see a photo of her in full trot.

Leo looks promising. I'd love to be able to fast forward to 24-36 months to see what the end result is! It's hard to tell in these photos but Leo's shoulder looks a mite better than Ruby's. I like his structure but I think his croup area looks a little short and steep. Wish he had more bone on him. The overall picture is of a promising, yet still a bit awkward, juvenile! Can't tell much about the paws thanks to the grass, though. I do like Ruby's expression, snotty and confident for the camera!



> Quote:I see alot of what she has a problem with he improves on and vice versa.


Are you thinking of breeding them together, hence the comparison? In my completely inexperienced opinion, I think Ruby would be best complemented by a male dog of good bone, great shoulder, and a beefy head without being mastiff-like. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/white_shepherd/pedigree/503441.html
http://www.sutumer-grund.de/rueden-campino.htm

You know, I had a heck of a time finding BBSes with a decent shoulder! Huh! Anyway, I do think that Ruby and Leo would be best complemented by dogs other than each other, but then again, I'm the last person to ask for advice on that!


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## Ceph (Mar 28, 2007)

I dont think I will be breeding them together....I think it's a comparison just because I have two very different dogs in terms of personalities and structure...the american judges tend to really like Leo...while alot of the Euro-style people like Ruby....lol...go figure . The males I am looking at for Ruby are these ones (generally titled males who have produced working offspring) : 

X-dream amaroq (also Ruby's great-grandsire)









Bodyguard of Haely's future









Bossonova von White Angel









Herkules king is a definite possibility
Aico vom Brucknerlandl is another

It would be a dream come true if I could get Amaroq though - or at least line breed on him...he is easily my favorite dog in this breed - one of the most highly titled on both ends...and that bone!

~Cate


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I like Bossonova's structure. Hard to see Amaroq's but his also looks nice. Bodyguard looks a little "hocky" and not all that complementary. But then again you have to look at so much more than just looks. Whatever works best (literally)!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:his topline isnt as good as Ruby's and his tail set is a little low.


What is that you prefer about Ruby's topline?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Ruby's is higher at the wither it seems but it is more level and "flowing" in my eyes. The abrupt end on Leo's throws me off. Daphne, you're the pro, what's your take on the toplines? 

The more I look at them though, it seems that Leo has more angulation and Ruby could definitely use a bit more.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

IMHO, Leo is the better dog. His proportions of length to height are more correct, and his croup is not as steep. Leo also appears to have better length of neck, which is probably indicative of a more correct shoulder.

But I am not a judge, nor do I play one on TV







.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Regardless, you know way more than I do. I'd love to see Leo fully grown.

I thought Leo's croup is more steep?


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## Ceph (Mar 28, 2007)

lol - what'd I tell ya 

Americans tend to like Leo more, Europeans tend to like Ruby...me...I love them both  They both bring something to the table I think









~Cate


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I think halfway between Leo and Ruby would be good, but I have to agree, knowing my preference in type, it's no wonder I can stare at both of them all day and still come out liking Ruby more. She is not as nice around the wither but she is more solid. I hope you don't mind this, but I wanted to post the last photo of Ruby next to her current photo as a comparison. She is coming along very nicely! Too bad you didn't have a stack of Leo from when he was younger!


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## Ceph (Mar 28, 2007)

I do....but they're ooogly... Getting him to stand still sometimes feels like trying to stop a moving train 

I should be getting in some decent pics of her in a couple of days from a show two weeks ago...and who knows...maybe she'll do something this sunday...I might take some then too







Having someone on the other end of the lense helps...the timer is hard 

~Cate


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If I coukd make a suggestion on your collar placement, in the photos the collar is in the middle of the neck. It seems distractiong to me. I would prefer to see the collar either just behind the ears or lower on the neck near the shoulder. On Leo, since he "trucks", I would put it low so that he can pull into the collar without it affecting his outline. If Ruby coes around nice and easy, I would put her collar up behind her ears where it is out of the line of sight.

Just a suggestion.


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## Ceph (Mar 28, 2007)

Thank you! I'm still learning all about this handling thing...so suggestions like that are great - I noticed it was kind of ganked up on Leo - on Ruby it's hard because of her ear fluffies  I wasnt feeling motivated enough to comb it into place (well...that and running back and forth between the camera and the dog to get them hastily set), but I will do that next time. Thanks!

~Cate


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