# A Question Regarding Shadows, Flashlights, Laser Pointers



## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

From reading this forum, I am learning that laser pointers are not a good thing to use with your dog. My question is, what if the dog knows where the light comes from? I haven't played laser pointer with Wolfie. I have used a flashlight not for play but to take him outside in the dark. He chases the light around, but seems to know that the light is coming from the flashlight. When I take it out, he gets all excited and wants to play, but as soon as I turn it off, he goes on to do something else. Another thing that Wolfie has always done is chase shadows. He started this on his own as he noticed shadows as a young pup. Again, he knows what makes the shadows. He will come over to us and stomp his feet, and snap his teeth, like he is barking, but no noise comes out. We say " want to play shadows?" and he stomps and snaps some more until we make shadows. He watches our hands and then chases the shadow, but always comes back and grabs our hands to win the game andto try and make us do more shadows. Then we say all done, and he goes on to something else. Is it ok to play like this if he knows what is making the shadows, and seems to grasp the concept that it's just a game?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

My opinion is no. He is already showing obsessive type behaviours by continuing to do bother your hands after you stop. It is also disrespectfull.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i think as long as he understands its a game, which from the sounds of things, he does, then i dont see the harm in it. because if he KNOWS what starts the game, its something physical he can get. just watch out for him to find the flashlight and bring it to you himself! Riley is neurotic about lasers and shadows and flashlights. he spazzes and wont chill. we cant seem to get him to understand its a game.... last 5 1/2 years.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

BlackGSD said:


> My opinion is no. He is already showing obsessive type behaviours by continuing to do bother your hands after you stop. It is also disrespectfull.


I didn't think of it in this way. I thought of it as he knows that he can't catch the shadow, but he can catch our hand that is making the shadow. That's something to think about.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think it is a healthy way to exercise a dog. There are many other outlets to mentally and physically wear him out. It is a dangerous game, IMO.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

We played with Cash with the Lazer pointer too. The problem is it builds up drive and frustration for a thing they can't get, so there's no way to get that drive/frustration out. One day Cash got so frustrated from chasing the lazer that he nearly took off the hand that was holding it. My fault, BAD MOMMY! I bandaged up my hand and we never played lazer pointer again. 

I also noticed that when he was supposed to be focusing on me, he would start becoming distracted by shadows. 

I don't think it's a good idea. Wish I had known then what I know now.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree, I wouldn't do it.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think it is a healthy way to exercise a dog. There are many other outlets to mentally and physically wear him out. It is a dangerous game, IMO.


:thumbup::toasting:


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

IMO it is a bad idea. I know a dog who has some serious OCD shadow chasing issues that developed from someone "playing" with a flashlight with him. The problem isn't of the dog not knowing where the light/shadow comes from, it's that such play gets the dog to notice lights/shadows in a way they normally wouldn't have. OCDs aren't caused by the dog not knowing where the light/shadow comes from. It generally starts with something the dog recognizes such as a flashlight or laser light, Most dogs know the sight of these toys when owners use them. The problem comes when the dog then starts noticing light spots or shadows in every day life. Then you have a dog who "plays" with lights spots and shadows in every day life, the same way they "play" with the flashlight.

I'd say a flirt pole is a much better outlet for this sort of play. You can easily make one from a long horse lunge whip and any long, "whippy" toy. It will offer the same sort of chasing exercise without the risk of developing and OCD.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Don't suppose anyone caught The Dog Whisperer last night?

There were 2 SAR dogs that had a fixation on shadows! And YES, they were both GSDs.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

BlackGSD said:


> Don't suppose anyone caught The Dog Whisperer last night?
> 
> There were 2 SAR dogs that had a fixation on shadows! And YES, they were both GSDs.


 
Haha, know what...I was just coming back to this thread to mention that episode! We watched it too last night!

I think your dog already has an unnatural obsession with lights and shadows. Those everyday things should NOT be things that the dog takes any notice of. The fact that he is going after your hands is NOT cute. There is a good chance one day it might be a real chomp on your hands with some swell punction wounds from frustration.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I read this thread and the other thread about no laser pointer and I am glad I did. I played with Jamie with one the other day. I had to change the batteries in it. It was orginally for my cats. She went nuts. We thought it was funny and a good way to get some energy out of her. I will never play this with her again thanks to these threads. I don't want her to have OCD. She is already obsessed with Victor. I have to tie her to me just to play ball with him. I am sure continued play with the pointer would have made it worse as to she is already showing obsession to Victor. Thanks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDElsa said:


> There is a good chance one day it might be a real chomp on your hands with some swell punction wounds from frustration.


Ahem. :help:
<--------


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I have to wonder if maybe a blue laser pointer would prevent a dog from chasing shadows. Dogs can see blue and yellow, but they can't see red. A red laser pointer would show up as a dark spec, and since shadows are dark as well they probably look the same.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Syaoransbear said:


> I have to wonder if maybe a blue laser pointer would prevent a dog from chasing shadows. Dogs can see blue and yellow, but they can't see red. A red laser pointer would show up as a dark spec, and since shadows are dark as well they probably look the same.


I dunno, Cash's favorite time to play laser pointer was in the dead of night.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Hmmmmm, maybe the laser pointer shows up as just a bright light, then. Or maybe it's some other color, I'm not sure what they see exactly. Either way, it's weird that a dog would go after things that didn't look like the dot of a laser pointer. My dog likes to chase small animals or toys, but he won't chase people that are running or cars that are moving. It just seems weird that a dog would chase a laser pointer and then transfer that over to all lights and shadows. 

We have one of those levelers that has a laser on it, so the laser is a large straight line. Chrono will only do a half assed attempt at chasing it, and he only chases the tip of the line which is the brightest part. If the light is too far away and faded and isn't that very strong bright dot of a laser pointer, he won't chase it. He also doesn't chase flashlights. It _has_ to be the dot of a laser pointer, so I think that's why he's never become obsessed.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> I'd say a flirt pole is a much better outlet for this sort of play. You can easily make one from a long horse lunge whip and any long, "whippy" toy. It will offer the same sort of chasing exercise without the risk of developing and OCD.


And would you say it is important to let the dog eventually "catch" whatever is on the end of the flirt pole? I had read (probably on this board) that part of the problem with laser pointers is that they NEVER catch it. Would this also be a problem if you used a flirt pole but never let the dog catch whatever was on it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

a rag or toy is real, a light dot is not, they cannot feel it or actually catch it. That is where the frustration builds. And yes, they should be able to catch the toy on the pole, play some tug and win it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cassadee7 said:


> And would you say it is important to let the dog eventually "catch" whatever is on the end of the flirt pole? I had read (probably on this board) that part of the problem with laser pointers is that they NEVER catch it. Would this also be a problem if you used a flirt pole but never let the dog catch whatever was on it?


With Cash I never "let" him catch the rag-- he just did.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> a rag or toy is real, a light dot is not, they cannot feel it or actually catch it. That is where the frustration builds. And yes, they should be able to catch the toy on the pole, play some tug and win it.


 I agree they should be able to "win" with the flirt pole. However, if you never let them win, a dog would likely just lose interest in the flirt pole after awhile. Flirt poles are not associated with OCD behaviors. The problem with playing light chasing games IMO is not entirely just that they can't catch the light. At least in part, the problem is that it changes the way the dog's brain reacts to certain stimuli. That is why there is no "safe" laser light or flashlight for your dog to "play" with. It doesn't matter what kind of light or what color the light is, if the dog is willing to chase it you are taking a risk of triggering an OCD behavior. Some dogs can "play" with lights without developing an OCD but a lot of them can not and there's no way to predict which your dog is until it's too late.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

Not a good idea. 

Why?


I just do not see the point. Many other fun things to do.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Laser=OCD....avoid it


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It was explained to me that it actually causes some sort of damage to neural synapses in the brain...........a short circuit.....something like the effect of lights blinking can cause an epileptic seizure in people.........I have seen some really really OCD dogs who were conditioned by people playing with pointers with them...one dog would just stare at the ground and pounce, over and over if his owner did not constantly correct him...the dog ended up being euthanized for some problem - possibly related - it was a couple of years ago....

I had a cat who would chase an opthamalscope light years ago when the ex was in vet school, so dogs are not the only ones who can be obsessive about light chasing...

Lee


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen GSDs obsessed about laser pointers and flashlights. I also knew one who was shadow obsessed. So much fun for the lady to try to walk him under trees on a sunny day even! 

I too am of the opinion that there are better ways to play. I don't ever take up light or laser chasing with them. I am sure there are some who would not obsess, but ya never know until ....


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

My dog Apollo does the exact same thing and he knows exactly where it comes from. I've been working with my trainer and she said to stop playing with him like that immediately because it's all mental and he doesn't have to use his nose for anything. He knows what a mirror is, he knows the reflection comes from the mirrors, he knows the light of a cell phone. I've never had to use a flashlight so he would not know what that is. He does know what shadows are. I can't exactly stop him from being so obsessed with his own shadow. I try to re-direct him but he goes back to it. I try to take him outside on a walk when he gets obsessed with the shadows on the walls.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Heagler has your trainer referred you to a veterinarian for behavioral medication? Very often, that is what is needed to help modify OCD behavior.

This video shows a dog with shadow chasing OCD the description says "Our border collie won't stop looking at shadows. She spends her whole day doing this, while other animals and people just walk around her." It is hard for people who have never seen a dog with this problem to understand what it means for a dog to have a light/shadow chasing OCD. It really changes how the dog acts in every day life.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I had a female obsessed with light that would stream into the room on the carpet. We played laser with her as a pup not knowing better. I would not recommend it.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

yeah, when my pup was like 13 weeks old he started staring/chasing at the reflections of my watch on the ground when we went out. Made him stare down too much in anticipation. 

I immediately covered my watch from then on, otherwise they really might end up like the dog in the video.


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