# Puppy Prices



## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

What do you think a fair price to pay for a top quality German line GSD?

Mike


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Which line? Working or show? Who's the sire and dam? What do you consider "top quality"?

At the very least, expect to pay $1000+ for either line.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Puppy?


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Well, I was at the exact bottom of what I would expect to pay. Gable was $1,000 because his mama wasn't titled yet. Her next litter will be $1,500 apiece.

So...expect to pay at least $1,000 for a well-bred puppy. And although that is the lower end, it is a possibility if you're on a tight budget. ...Although, don't expect puppy ownership to be cheap. It's not. At all.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I've found purebreds from good breeders ranging from $1,000-3,500. It depends on what you want. If it's a pet dog, I would think $1,000 is about right. If you are looking to show or for a particular sport, it goes up from there. The $3,500 were puppies that were bred for K-9 or other working careers.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Sorry...yes, puppy. We had 2 brothers, 6 mo old, and our little Milo died suddenly this week. Our vet believes it was a sudden death due to heart complications but the necropsy won't be back until Friday or Monday. The breeder is willing to give us a full credit if the results conclude that it was some kind of congenital issue. He was in perfect health. We are 99.99999% certain that he didn't ingest anything and we know it was bloat or twisted intestine. The breeder is not being very sensitive to the fact that we spent $4K in the 2 brothers. They advertised the pups as "discounted" because they were long coats. We were looking for 2 LCs, so it worked out.

Now she is saying that we could buy the pup we want for an additional $2000 if the tests come back showing that our little boy died of a congenital issue, or $3500 if test shows something other than that.

It just seems to me that the breeder would want to be as flexible as possible and have some empathy for their customers. She makes me feel like it was something that we did, which is not the case. Our other little guy is absolutely lost without his brother and has been in a depressive state for the last 3 days. Our dogs are never left unattended and treated like they are members of the family. I was expecting her to tell us to come out and pick out any puppy. I am sure that if the necropsy comes back inconclusive, she will not replace the dog. I would expect one penny back if the tests show poison ingestion or something that is not health related.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Wait, she is going to give you a credit of $2k and charge you an additional $2k, so $4k in total for the pup you want? What you basically paid for 2 pups?? Doesn't sound right to me and way more that I would pay. How old is the pup you are wanting?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't know where you are at, but after such a sad experience, I would try to wait a bit, and possibly, if there are good rescues that have GSDs around, take your boy to adoption events and see if anyone grabs his eye. I am really sorry about his brother.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am sorry for your loss. If the necropsy shows it is a genetic defect, I would be inclined to ask for a refund and find someone else given the response you have described,particularly since you have already put plento of money into raising your pup I am sure.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

She was pretty clear that there was no refund, only a credit. If the results come back inconclusive and they will not replace our puppy, I will take my lumps and go to another breeder. We have owned GSDs for 20 plus years and I have never had an experience like this with a breeder. I'm just wondering what she will give us as an even replacement if that is our option. If the test come back showing that he passed from poison ingestion or something non congenital, I wouldn't expect anything from them.

Here is a pic of our little Milo that passed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most breeders do not give refunds, they take the dog back and/or offer a replacement. I don't think no refund is anything shady. However I don't really get the math with the pricing. Normally the breeder would offer a replacement pup that is "equal" (whatever standards the breeder is using) or credit towards a different pup and you pay the difference. As I understand it you spend $2K each on a long coat so the breeder should credit you $2K towards the next dog. IMO $2K is quite steep but who am I to say... so I guess it makes sense that a stock coated dog would be more.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I am so sorry about Milo.  I lost Odin at 6.5 months old, the pain was unbearable. My breeder gave us a new puppy even though it Odin's death wasn't anything genetic. 
She was very sympathetic, supportive and caring to my family.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Yes. You are correct in the replacement or the credit. When they brought out 3 older puppies ( 3-4 mos) for us to look at, I assumed that these would be replacement dogs. Turns out I was wrong. They have no long coats at this time, and evidently the puppy they showed us that we really like is $4K.

I'm now concerned with what we will get for the $2K if the tests show death was caused by a congenital issue.

Mike


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## Steve & Michelle (Feb 21, 2012)

During our research of breeders before getting our little guy over two months ago now, it seems most breeders will not give a refund but a replacement of an equal quality pup. If you were going from companion to show quality I could understand the extra money. But I too think the breeder could show some compassion since once you bond to your new family member, they really are part of the family and would be a great loss.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you have concerns and would have to spend an additional $2K on the next puppy you want, what about looking at other breeders? There are some really good show line breeders that are under $2K (coated or not). Or, if you like the coated dogs, ask to apply your credit to the next coated dog that is born.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Most breeders do not give refunds, they take the dog back and/or offer a replacement. I don't think no refund is anything shady. However I don't really get the math with the pricing. Normally the breeder would offer a replacement pup that is "equal" (whatever standards the breeder is using) or credit towards a different pup and you pay the difference. As I understand it you spend $2K each on a long coat so the breeder should credit you $2K towards the next dog. IMO $2K is quite steep but who am I to say... so I guess it makes sense that a stock coated dog would be more.


I agree, the contract I signed with my breeder clearly stated it would be a credit not a refund if anything goes wrong. But I would have no problem going back to them, I love their dogs

Yes, the credit should stay with the breeder but at the same time if there IS a genetic defect then I wouldn't say it wouldn't be a option to ask them to find another dog from a different breeder to give to you. Regardless, I'm shocked she's telling you to "pay" double the original purchase price, for $4000 that dog better be something very special

For instance, I had a aunt and a uncle purchase a GSD puppy from a reputable breeder several years ago, within the first few weeks they noticed there was something "off" about the puppy and took it into the vet several times. He ended up being diagnosed with a severe heart murmer and they were devestated. They contacted the breeder who agreed to take the puppy back and get them a new dog. She made a deal with another breeder who had even better quality puppies and got them one of those puppies for the same price.

Even my own breeder offered to help me find a puppy from another breeder if I didn't find a match in their litter

Anyways, it all stems back to the cause of death and what the vet says


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

4k wow! Of course people can charge what they can get and people can pay what they can pay.

So very sorry about the sudden death of your beautiful puppy. It is so shocking and upsetting when something like this happens. I hate that trauma for you and the loss. 
I have seen it happen several times over the years. Never easy.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Liesje said:


> If you have concerns and would have to spend an additional $2K on the next puppy you want, what about looking at other breeders? There are some really good show line breeders that are under $2K (coated or not). Or, if you like the coated dogs, ask to apply your credit to the next coated dog that is born.


If the test comes back showing death was not caused by a congenital issue, I wouldn't buy another pup from them. I would look to go to another breeder.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

If the results DO come back as a congenital issue, I would make them provide a suitable replacement at no additional cost to you. I would think you've been through enough with all this. Seeing is how they seem to drop a litter every week, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to give you a replacement pup for what you've already paid. And longcoat pups are very common in showline litters. If they were ethical, they would not be trying to get more money out of you for what they have already failed to provide-which is a healthy pup.

If it turns out this was not from a congenital issue, I would definitely go elsewhere.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

A 2000.00 dollar difference between a long coat and a stock coat is absolutely ridiculous, I'm so sorry you lost your beautiful puppy, and I'm sorry you had the misfortune to have that breeder, don't think all breeders are like that. I would just take the credit and wait for a long coat puppy, spend the waiting time bonding and training the puppy you have left for now.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

LARHAGE said:


> A 2000.00 dollar difference between a long coat and a stock coat is absolutely ridiculous, I'm so sorry you lost your beautiful puppy, and I'm sorry you had the misfortune to have that breeder, don't think all breeders are like that. I would just take the credit and wait for a long coat puppy, spend the waiting time bonding and training the puppy you have left for now.


We thought about waiting, but his bro is absolutely lost without him. He barely ate yesterday and refused food this AM. He seems depressed and I don't want to end up with another tragedy. Rocco and Milo have never been separated. You hear about always separating 2 males, but these guys were different. I think bringing a new pup into the house will help Rocco with his depression. 

Mike


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am not sure about that needing another pup buddy idea to make life right. But, I know people have things in their mind about how dogs work and I seldom get them to consider otherwise.


If you really believe you need a friend for him, there are many less costly pups looking for a home. If I wanted the dog to show or compete, I would consider a higher priced animal because of the higher criteria I would have for those endeavors. A good dog to be a buddy to my other dog and to have as my pet can be achieved in some awesome and less expensive ways.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

When deciding on getting a dog, I would base my decision on if why _I_ needed the dog and what my criteria were. I wouldn't get a dog just to keep another one company. Many people will caution against getting 2 puppies at the same time.

If I were you, I would wait on necropsy and see what it says. If it is congenital, wait till she has another LC and then get that one as a replacement. I would not give this breeder any more of my money if I were you. If it turns out to not be genetic, then I would take this loss and find a different breeder. Robin Huerta at Huerta Hof is located in Illinois.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm upset at reading the treatment you are receiving from the breeder. She must have been cheated before by clients to be so cold about this. I understand each dog costs her money, but if it's a genetic defect, she needs to replace the dog as stated in the contract, not charge more. I wouldn't pay more to the same breeder. From what you've said, I'm not sure I would trust her any longer, either. A good friend is a breeder, although she rarely has any puppies, it's strictly to advance the line, not to make money. She barely broke even on her last litter as the puppies needed to be delivered by a vet, which was very expensive. If a dog was defective, she would have returned the money if she didn't have a comparable replacement, even if it cost her a profit in the end. Charging you more for a dog when the problem was on her end doesn't make sense.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Mcap said:


> You hear about always separating 2 males, but these guys were different.


Those problems occur when the dogs hit sexual maturity, usually between 18 and 24 months. So at only 6 months, your pups were still very much pups.

It's not good to have two puppies so attached to each other that they can't function independently. I would really, really, urge you to wait for a long coated pup that fits what you are looking for. Even if it's in a litter a little later. It will give time for your current remaining puppy to learn to be a member of the FAMILY instead of a member of the puppy pack. I have 5 dogs. I totally understand wanting dogs to be able to be dogs and play with other dogs, etc. But ALL of my dogs can operate independently from each other. None of them depend on the other dogs for happiness or routine. This is how it should be.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

your puppy is grieving the loss of a specific dog/relationship, not the loss of just any buddy or playmate. while i understand your line of thinking, i have also known people who thought that way, replaced a dog who had died because they felt the dog that was still living needed them to do that, when in fact their dog detested the new arrival. now i know that there are going to be people who respond to this post by saying that dogs are not humans and shouldn't be assigned human emotions/thinking, however in 65 years of having them (and my parents before me and my grandfather before them), i have found that german shepherd dogs are a bit different than other dogs, having a wide range of emotions and abilities in the reasoning and decision-making thought processes that many/most other breeds do not have.

and if i'd been treated as you have by your breeder, i'd find another. prices are quite out of line, even if, as samba says, nothing you can do about what people charge or are willing to pay. imho your breeder is insensitive and the prices much too steep (making this assumption on information available to me from this thread).

take care, again SO sorry about the loss of your dear boy milo.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Mcap said:


> We thought about waiting, but his bro is absolutely lost without him. He barely ate yesterday and refused food this AM. He seems depressed and I don't want to end up with another tragedy. Rocco and Milo have never been separated. You hear about always separating 2 males, but these guys were different. I think bringing a new pup into the house will help Rocco with his depression.
> 
> Mike


Honestly, he is grieving the loss of his sibling who he has never been without. What you are considering wouldn't be much different than showing up at a friend's funeral and trying to sit the widow up with a blind date!
Also, as someone said, that is part of the problem of having 2 pups from the same litter. Unless you take great precaution to prevent it, they tend to get overly attached to the point that they can't function without the other. Sometimes it happens at a tragically young age but sooner or later one of the dogs will pass on. When they are that attached the survivor has no understanding or means to cope with the loss.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What types of things are you doing to bond with puppy who's still alive? Doing any classes or anything? How much time are you spending with the puppy? 

If this were me, I'd wait a little bit and just go with another breeder. Their prices really are outrageous - price does not always equal quality. I would not be surprised if you can get much better for less, but that's just a generalization. Just wait and try to have a little patience. Bond and train the current puppy and then add another down the road in a year or two.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I believe $1500 is a fair price for a well bred dog.

Also, give your pup time to grieve the loss of it's sibling. I do not think getting a new puppy will help.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

To answer the OP question, I'd pay 2,500 max for a well bred puppy.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Around here pups from German Show Lines out of titled (SchH) and ofa'd parents start at about $2500. There are 2 breeders in my area with VERY nice show line dogs and I don't think they would charge 4k for one of their pups. 

As to getting another pup just to keep the first company, I wouldn't even consider that a reason. The grieving pup needs to get over it on his own and learn to live as your pet, not as another dog's companion. The pup not eating like his old self is not the end of the world. Now is a good time to encourage him to stand on his own 2 feet. You are not doing him any favors making him co-dependent on another dog. At this age he can move on and learn independence so as sad as it is, use the time and be a good guardian. 
Give him some time to grieve and then get involved in something new and fun for you and him. Agility, hiking in the woods, tracking, whatever, just something new to get him excited about being YOUR dog. 
I have 3 dogs of my own, and while they do enjoy each other's company, I don't think they would be overly distraught if one were to suddenly be gone. I'm sure they would be sad and confused for a bit, but as long as I'm here (or my husband or daughter) then life is good and they are happy.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Rerun said:


> Those problems occur when the dogs hit sexual maturity, usually between 18 and 24 months. So at only 6 months, your pups were still very much pups.
> 
> It's not good to have two puppies so attached to each other that they can't function independently. I would really, really, urge you to wait for a long coated pup that fits what you are looking for. Even if it's in a litter a little later. It will give time for your current remaining puppy to learn to be a member of the FAMILY instead of a member of the puppy pack. I have 5 dogs. I totally understand wanting dogs to be able to be dogs and play with other dogs, etc. But ALL of my dogs can operate independently from each other. None of them depend on the other dogs for happiness or routine. This is how it should be.


I appreciate everyone's comments. We clearly set the hierarchy in the "house pack'. There was no doubt that I am the Alpha. We trained each dog at separate facilities, took them out together and separately, and spend individual time with each dog on a daily basis. Even when they were together, it was clear to them that we came first versus each other. We have always had 2 GSDs, but this is the first time from the same litter. Wanting another GSD is more of a need that we have versus replacing a littermate. I will tell you that Rocco is not eating much and is pretty much laying in the corner all day. We get him up and outside for exercise, but his enthusiasm to train, play or even go for a walk is low. He did perk up when we took him to the breeder to check out what I though were the even trade replacement pups. He played with all 3 and had his "step" back when we took each for a walk on the property.
Mike


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss  I have a 7 month old pup now and can't imagine what it would be like to lose her.

I, personally, wouldn't pay $4000 for a puppy, but I'm sure there are some that will. If it's a congential issue, I really hope the breeder can offer you a replacement pup at no extra cost to you.

Is the breeder charging more for a long coated pup that a regular coat? I ask because I too have a German show line long coated pup, and actually paid less for her than I would have paid for her regular coated siblings, as a lot of people don't want the long coated pups.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

*Lisa* said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss  I have a 7 month old pup now and can't imagine what it would be like to lose her.
> 
> I, personally, wouldn't pay $4000 for a puppy, but I'm sure there are some that will. If it's a congential issue, I really hope the breeder can offer you a replacement pup at no extra cost to you.
> 
> Is the breeder charging more for a long coated pup that a regular coat? I ask because I too have a German show line long coated pup, and actually paid less for her than I would have paid for her regular coated siblings, as a lot of people don't want the long coated pups.


There Coated pups are usually the same price. Supposedly we got a discount for buying 2 puppies.

Mike


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I really can't think of any good breeders that would sell two puppies to someone. That is really just pretty nuts.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Rerun said:


> I really can't think of any good breeders that would sell two puppies to someone. That is really just pretty nuts.


I agree, and even when breeders hold back a couple of pups, if possible they usually will have someone they trust to take one of them for some independent growing/training time.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Despite the 2 puppies at one time situation, the OP paid $2000 for a pup that is no longer alive due to what could possibly be a genetic issue and the best the breeder can offer him is a "discount" on another pup which just happens to be double the price he paid for the first pup?! The breeder claims to have given him a discount because he bought two pups, but if that's the case, according to her pricing tier, then she essentially gave him a 2 for 1?? Yea right! Shady, unethical breeders like this are a discredit to the breed and other breeders who work hard to produce sound dogs and stand behind what they produce without trying to take advantage of inexperienced buyers. However this situation turns out, I wish the OP all the best and pray that you do not give these people another DIME of your money!


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

If you give it a few weeks, you will be shocked. Your other pup will come around. Maybe give it a while before adding another family member, and show all your love and attention to the one you have now. "what if you get a new pup and the one you have now doesnt accept the new pup? Just things to think about....Sorry for your loss  Im sure your devistated


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Lakl said:


> Despite the 2 puppies at one time situation, the OP paid $2000 for a pup that is no longer alive due to what could possibly be a genetic issue and the best the breeder can offer him is a "discount" on another pup which just happens to be double the price he paid for the first pup?! The breeder claims to have given him a discount because he bought two pups, but if that's the case, according to her pricing tier, then she essentially gave him a 2 for 1?? Yea right! Shady, unethical breeders like this are a discredit to the breed and other breeders who work hard to produce sound dogs and stand behind what they produce without trying to take advantage of inexperienced buyers. However this situation turns out, I wish the OP all the best and pray that you do not give these people another DIME of your money!


The OP probably got a discount for the LC pups, but the breeder only has stock coated pups available right now. Stock coated pups tend to sell for a higher price than the long coated pups. Hence the discount offered on the new pup.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

Andaka said:


> The OP probably got a discount for the LC pups, but the breeder only has stock coated pups available right now. Stock coated pups tend to sell for a higher price than the long coated pups. Hence the discount offered on the new pup.


Yes...The OP (me) did buy the coated puppies at a discount price and the breeder does not have any coated puppies although there is a new litter on the ground that potentially could. 

I fully understand the potential issues of buying 2 puppies. In 40 yrs, I have done it 3 times without an issue. I have raised 2 males together without issue. I am not a breeder or a "dog whisperer"....I think I can communicate well and create a hierarchy pack. Our dogs have always lived in the house, been well trained and could be left with a room full of babies without any concern. I look for a certain temperament in a puppy and for whatever reason, have been pretty good about picking pups. The only down side to owning 2 dogs the same age, is that they will probably pass away within a yr or two of each other. We recently had to put down our two older dogs and it was pure ****. I wasn't expecting to lose a 6 mo old puppy. It was absolutely devastating. I had a long talk with the breeder last night and she finally came around. We should have the necropsy results today or Monday and then we will decide what to do.

Thanks

Mike


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

so sorry for your loss Mike, i had 2 dogs a older dog and a 1 yr old, when the older one went to the bridge, the puppy didnt eat for almost a week. I was going to take her to the vet (poor thing was looking for her buddy all day) and then around 7 days she started to eat again, and slowly come out of her depression. good luck with your heartless breeder


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mcap said:


> We thought about waiting, but his bro is absolutely lost without him. He barely ate yesterday and refused food this AM. He seems depressed and I don't want to end up with another tragedy. Rocco and Milo have never been separated. You hear about always separating 2 males, but these guys were different. I think bringing a new pup into the house will help Rocco with his depression.
> 
> Mike


 
Sounds like the two pups bonded very well with each other - wouldn't you want the dog to bond more with you and your family than with each other?



BTW, with that breeders reaction I am not sure that I would want another pup from her. Esp. to charge you another 2K for one. Doesn't sound like much of a replacement - just another sale for your breeder!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mcap said:


> We thought about waiting, but his bro is absolutely lost without him. He barely ate yesterday and refused food this AM. He seems depressed and I don't want to end up with another tragedy. Rocco and Milo have never been separated. You hear about always separating 2 males, but these guys were different. I think bringing a new pup into the house will help Rocco with his depression.
> 
> Mike


 
Also realize that relationships between pups can dramatically change as they mature. Dogs that got along super for 2 years can suddenly decide that one of them doen't like the other aslmost overnight.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

Mike:

So sorry to hear of Milo's passing. That is devastating, and doubly so to see Rocco going through such a hard time.


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## Mcap (Mar 31, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Also realize that relationships between pups can dramatically change as they mature. Dogs that got along super for 2 years can suddenly decide that one of them doen't like the other aslmost overnight.


Agreed. I have just never had it happen with the GSD males that I have owned. I guess some breeders are a "little different". If I was the breeder and this happened to one of my customers I would let them pick out any puppy they wanted, but that's me. I was hoping to get the necropsy results on Friday, but no luck...hopefully Monday.

Rocco ate a little bit yesterday. He actually ate a whole mackeral and about a pound of fresh tripe. I put his food down this morning and he didn't touch it so back in the refrigerator it went. He been on raw for about 3 months and hopefully his appetite will come back soon. i am taking him to the kennel this AM to watch some Obedience and Schultzhund training. It's good to meet other owners and their dogs. I think it's good for him to be around some of his relatives 

Mike


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Mike....
First, let me say that I'm very sorry for your loss.
Second.....your puppy *needs* to bond to *you*....NOT to another dog.
Your young dog feels "lost" simply because he has bonded to another canine, instead of the humans in his household/pack.....this is not a good thing.
Dogs will instinctively bond with their own species.....but they need to "bond first & strongest" to the humans within their home......otherwise, *honestly*...they simply don't need you for anything other than a meal from time to time.
All their enjoyment and learning will be taught from each other....*this is the bonding experience*......and it is so crucial, that it come from you and not another canine.
Dogs are not humans...they are animals.....and to bestow upon them, human feelings and emotions is not a healthy thing to do.....they simply do not live this way.
BOND with your young dog.....become his guidance and leader.....BEFORE, you consider adding another canine into your relationship.
JMHO Best Wishes.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

robinhuerta said:


> Mike....
> First, let me say that I'm very sorry for your loss.
> Second.....your puppy *needs* to bond to *you*....NOT to another dog.
> Your young dog feels "lost" simply because he has bonded to another canine, instead of the humans in his household/pack.....this is not a good thing.
> ...


BRAVO!!!! 

I too am sorry for your loss, but the above is SO true. I've had as many as 4 dogs at a time. I am now down to 1. When I lost the old ones (one at a time over a few year period.) The other dogs never missed a beat. They acted exactly the same after the loss as they did before because I am the most important thing in their world rather than another dog.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I avoid at all costs having two pups together. I spend the developmental months bonding with and training each pup. This makes for hugely people oriented and well trained dogs in the end. I get my pups for me though, not for each other. I guess everyone has their own approaches to this. But, If I were a puppy lumper who did not mind that the dogs bonded highly to one another and probably less to me, a suitable "companion" to my pup could be found for free. I pay a goodly price for my dogs and we spend the early months doing so much together that having two pups would seriously handicap my efforts in those early, formative months that are unrepeatable once the dog is older.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Just saw on Facebook where Val Miller has a coated black tan working line pup available....buyer on the litter wanted stock coat....I know they are home raised with child in house...her kennel name is haus Weinbrand....google it or look on facebook 

She is near Canton Ohio, and raises her pups on raw....I agree that Rocco needs to bond to you, and I would be open with Val about the age of your other pup 

Lee


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