# Canny Collars



## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Hello  Bella has turned into a bit of a puller with me, perfect with my OH (frustrating as I do most of the walks) so we asked my dad for some advice and he suggested a full check chain over the half one we'd been using but I struggled with this as she'd be too far ahead no matter what I tried so it was less of a check more of a 'I'll just breathe a bit harder' for her. I didn't like this at all as I was still struggling and she wasn't learning to behave with me. I was thinking about getting a halti but the shop recommended a canny collar and amazingly she walks next to my leg no issues with pulling forward...but now she pulls down trying to get it off or waves her head round like a horse trying to wave it off her snout, she's pawed at her face enough to make one spot on her nose bleed which happens every time...do we just persist for her to get used to this collar being on her nose? Is it just because she's not used to anything being there? I've been giving her treats to encourage it but she always decide to stop in the middle of the road to try and get it off which isn't too safe! Other than her dislike to it on her face I am so ridiculously impressed with the turnaround its produced! I don't have to walk 10mph to the woods anymore!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have no answer for you but for those who do, I gather you must be in the UK where prong collars are not "legal" or at least popular over there.

This looks a lot like our Gentle Leader.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Hi yes I'm from the UK and get glared at for even using a check collar so I'm not sure what I'd get if I used a prong collar! Are there any effective ways of getting her used to the snout bit is really what I'm looking for? as I don't want to push something on her which isn't going to work in the long run. Like I said she walks brilliantly until she's trying to get it off but then she's cutting herself and I'm worried that the training isn't working and she isn't understanding why she's being given treats


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We do have a prong collar over here that a lot of folks love because they do dog activities with folks who frown on prongs...plus it is very easy to put on and only gives a dead ring correction (the less severe one)! It may be worth considering but I know it is early here and some Gentle Leader or Halti users may have some advice for you

Lola Limited – Secret Powers


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There are also harnesses that you can use with great success. I think the Freedom is one that is well received. No-Pull Dog Harness Product Review - Whole Dog Journal Article I believe there are some recent (and older) threads about harnesses here. They are not Husky pulling harnesses of course! I like them a lot - they make me feel more like I'm walking with a horse - that nice little pinky flick kind of control until I can transition to a regular martingale (for no slip safety).


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

I had thought about a harness but it's only been a couple days so wanted to try this first for a little longer, just trying to avoid the struggle to keep it on/stop her cutting herself


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Then you want to start pairing the collar with something that she really loves and only gets with the collar - just to start - treating and collar. Walking with a toy to keep her attention, and walking faster.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I tried the Canny collar. My girl hated it. Absolutely hated it. She never did get over fighting the nose piece. 
I finally quit using it and worked with a prong for awhile. Now she walks calmly by my side with just a martingale collar on, no pulling at all.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

I don't want to use the nose piece forever, just to stop the pulling, once she's walking nicely I'm taking it off but I understand she doesn't know that and hopefully she won't react the same way as your girl Wyominggrandma, such a shame it didn't work for you. 
Tonight I'm going to try putting it on in the house and giving her treats and playtime, and give her some SUPER nice treats, see how we get on with that; thanks JeanKBBMMMAAN


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

BandErlPhoLa said:


> I don't want to use the nose piece forever, just to stop the pulling, once she's walking nicely I'm taking it off but I understand she doesn't know that and hopefully she won't react the same way as your girl Wyominggrandma, such a shame it didn't work for you.
> Tonight I'm going to try putting it on in the house and giving her treats and playtime, and give her some SUPER nice treats, see how we get on with that; thanks JeanKBBMMMAAN


I used a halti on Archer when he was a young dog and prone to a bit of pulling, he picked it up in no time, so just be patient. I used to put it on him, give him a treat and let him wear it for a few minutes, at a time until he was desentitised to it, after that he associated it with going for a walk and never minded it. He walks on a flat collar now, no pulling at all and he's not quite 19 months (haven't used the halti for at least two months either). Best of luck!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Here is some info that might help on how to get a dog used to a headcollar:
How to Get Your Dog Comfortable in a Head Collar | Ahimsa Dog Blog

Also a video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wakterNyUg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=1wakterNyUg


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Jul 23, 2011)

BandErlPhoLa said:


> Hi yes I'm from the UK and get glared at for even using a check collar so I'm not sure what I'd get if I used a prong collar! Are there any effective ways of getting her used to the snout bit is really what I'm looking for? as I don't want to push something on her which isn't going to work in the long run. Like I said she walks brilliantly until she's trying to get it off but then she's cutting herself and I'm worried that the training isn't working and she isn't understanding why she's being given treats


Most people wouldn't know what a prong collar is if they saw one, and on a dog with plenty of fur that the collar can sink into it becomes less visible anyway. More important, why should it concern you what someone else thinks if you're using equipment sensibly for the long term welfare of your dog?

Head halters aren't training tools, they're management tools, and a large proportion of dogs reject them. Don't be fooled by the nonsense of it being a 'gentle alternative' to anything, they're dangerous, prone to cause anxiety, stress and injury. If it works without much fuss from the dog then great, otherwise an ongoing reaction to the collar is a pretty HUGE clue that it's the wrong equipment for that dog.


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Chicagocanine said:


> Here is some info that might help on how to get a dog used to a headcollar:
> How to Get Your Dog Comfortable in a Head Collar | Ahimsa Dog Blog
> 
> Also a video:
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wakterNyUg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=1wakterNyUg


Thanks I'll try doing this in the house  She was a little better this morning, I was doing little skips in different directions and treats every couple of steps if she hadn't tried pushing it off and she only really had 2 'episodes' of really trying to fight it so a small change from yesterday but all good 

LuvMyDog_Worldwide I just don't like the idea of someone thinking I'm cruel to my dog - I don't think that's awful? I know 2 dog trainers and only one recommended the check collar and the other vehemently disagreed with them due to cruelty - I'm pretty sure she'd try and take Bella away if I used a prong collar, but they both agree a head halter will encourage her to listen to me instead of a sharp physical tug which I struggle to do effectively. This isn't meant for a long term thing and only something to encourage walking at a slower pace and listening to my voice and not just my partners; so far it's working she is walking brilliantly! I just was looking for advice to stop her trying to get it off her face.


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## PixelGalileo (Sep 19, 2013)

Hi, Also from the UK
Head collars are not for every dog.
Do a google search for Sporn Non-Pull harness
You can get them from amazon.
I have Huskies and a GSD and they work fantastic with all 3


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

don't depend on a collar. train your dog to heel. to turn it
up a bit train your dog to heel on either side with or without
a leash.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Jul 23, 2011)

BandErlPhoLa said:


> LuvMyDog_Worldwide I just don't like the idea of someone thinking I'm cruel to my dog - I don't think that's awful? I know 2 dog trainers and only one recommended the check collar and the other vehemently disagreed with them due to cruelty - I'm pretty sure she'd try and take Bella away if I used a prong collar, but they both agree a head halter will encourage her to listen to me instead of a sharp physical tug which I struggle to do effectively. This isn't meant for a long term thing and only something to encourage walking at a slower pace and listening to my voice and not just my partners; so far it's working she is walking brilliantly! I just was looking for advice to stop her trying to get it off her face.


Of the 3 parties involved here I think the 1 party with the only opinion that matters is telling you something....."trying to get it off her face."

Isn't that cruel too?

I could care less of someone's opinion if the dog isn't showing a negative reaction to the equipment. I more than most understand the sentiment on UK dog forums, however when you read them it's the same 20 people with no clue between them passing judgement and making out it's the common view of the British public, utter bollocks.

On the first day of Crufts, within the first few hours we'd already had 5 written complaints about selling prong collars on the stand, several people who came to confront us on the stand honestly thought the Sieger collars were prong collars, and the irony is we didn't have a single prong collar, component or picture on the stand. The forums were full of spiteful clique posters calling for choke chains to be banned and quoting how the Kennel Club were behind them all the way when almost all the dogs in the ring were on slip chains, handlers were coming over to buy very thin chains and going straight to the ring and some were even appearing on television with them, all under the watchful eye and will the full knowledge of the Kennel Club who remained completely silent....wow!

So I promise you, both the "educated" bunny hugger dog fanciers with their vindictive opinions on t'interweb and the general public don't have a clue what training equipment is, don't have a clue what a slip collar is or isn't capable of, don't actually know how to train a dog themselves, have never and will never see a prong collar for real, and 99.99999999% of the population don't really care either way. As for recommending head collars, they're equally if not more aversive than any other tool and are a danger to a large proportion of dogs, but they get recommended at the drop of a hat by these people berating others for cruelty and training through fear and pain, because they simply don't know what they're talking about and don't even understand the nature of their own choice of equipment. Sad fact!

FWIW if any trainer tells you a halter is a training tool ask to see their Barkbuster qualifications and walk away.....then find the equipment that works for your dog with the least possible impact and stick with it, whether that be a harness, prong collar or slip chain and learn how to use it safely and sensibly so not to harm your dog. The head halter you have is likely to be the wrong tool and you're entitled to question it's validity to achieve what you want to achieve.


</rant>


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

I think if the OP doesn't want to use a prong, there's no point in berating her feelings on the matter.

For the record, how a dog reacts to a piece of training equipment should NOT be the primary indicator to whether or not it should be used. At least in my humble opinion.

How many dogs are in love with a muzzle the first time you put one on? Would you thus suggest no one ever use a muzzle, because most dogs do not enjoy wearing them without proper conditioning?

I think OP needs to spend more time making their dog comfortable with the equipment they chose that is making their dog more manageable, so that they then can begin to properly work with and training them for the behaviors they want. Again, IMHO.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

atravis said:


> I think if the OP doesn't want to use a prong, there's no point in berating her feelings on the matter.
> 
> For the record, how a dog reacts to a piece of training equipment should NOT be the primary indicator to whether or not it should be used. At least in my humble opinion.
> 
> ...


How a dog reacts to a piece of equipment should very much indicate when in training that equipment should be used. Just slapping any piece of equipment on a dog and taking it for a walk is a recipe for stress.

What I don't understand about this whole conversation, barring one post, is that the dog is not being trained to walk in an appropriate manner, it is being placed in a stressful condition while walking which is not helping the handler at all, and only management techniques are suggested. This does nothing for the dog except teach it to ignore discomfort and that walks aren't as much fun with mom as with dad.

Lose leash walking is simple to teach, fun for the dog, and happens really quickly (like in 1-2 days on a non reactive dog) if done properly. The dog is currently in opposition reflex on a standard collar. This is normal. Just teach it to not pull. Train the dog, don't just manage it.

You can use whatever collar you want for this. I would suggest getting rid of the head collar because the dog doesn't like it. Most dogs do fine with a flat collar. If you need to use a prong, I would suggest leash pressure techniques, not using it for corrections.



Find me a high level obedience trainer that uses a head collar for anything.

David Winners


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

You use management tools until you are capable of working towards the training. Its nice to think that just anyone can walk up to and start training an unruly dog... especially a large, powerful one like a GSD. 

But some cannot, and until you can GET to that place, you need to find a way to manage the dog's behavior until both you and the dog are at a place where both can begin moving forward.

And again I ask, one should completely eliminate a tool from their training just because and unconditioned dog has a bad reaction? So again... things like muzzles should be totally nixed from the training equation? Harnesses (which plenty of dogs find unpleasant at first) should be cut? Heck, while we're at it, plenty of dogs don't even like wearing a flat buckle if they've never had to before. How the dog feels is important, but saying not to use a tool just because they aren't immediately used to it is like saying your children shouldn't have to wear clothing because they prefer to be naked.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I tried it. Hated it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

atravis said:


> You use management tools until you are capable of working towards the training. Its nice to think that just anyone can walk up to and start training an unruly dog... especially a large, powerful one like a GSD.
> 
> But some cannot, and until you can GET to that place, you need to find a way to manage the dog's behavior until both you and the dog are at a place where both can begin moving forward.
> 
> And again I ask, one should completely eliminate a tool from their training just because and unconditioned dog has a bad reaction? So again... things like muzzles should be totally nixed from the training equation? Harnesses (which plenty of dogs find unpleasant at first) should be cut? Heck, while we're at it, plenty of dogs don't even like wearing a flat buckle if they've never had to before. How the dog feels is important, but saying not to use a tool just because they aren't immediately used to it is like saying your children shouldn't have to wear clothing because they prefer to be naked.


I would sooner manage the situation than the dog at this point. I would train loose leash walking in the house or back yard, even if it takes a month, then move to a more distracting place. Why force equipment on the dog? Why is walking in a distracting environment more important than the dog injuring itself? 

I understand that not everyone can immediately have control over a large dog, which is why I got involved in this thread. The head collar will not lead to control, and will only increase the confusion in the dog when the nose strap is removed. I am familiar with this equipment, have worked with dogs using head collars, have worked with trainers that use them exclusively, and have formed and educated opinion on their use. I, personally, have no use for them. Your experience may certainly differ. If they work for you and towards your goals, I understand your viewpoint.

I use muzzles, harnesses, prongs, e-collars, flat collars, trash cans, whatever it takes. In every instance, I condition the dog to the tool before implementing it in training. I do not force it on the dog unless I have no other choice, such as a muzzle for my safety when working a dog that will bite me.

Directly to your question: no, a piece of equipment should not be avoided because the dog is not used to it. The dog should be conditioned to the equipment before it's use. If this conditioning fails, take another path. If you lack the experience to reach your goals with the tools you know well, you should

IMHO, training the dog to be relaxed and walk on a loose leash is the goal. How is causing the dog stress, pain and injury working towards that goal?

David Winners


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

David Winners said:


> I would sooner manage the situation than the dog at this point. I would train loose leash walking in the house or back yard, even if it takes a month, then move to a more distracting place. Why force equipment on the dog? Why is walking in a distracting environment more important than the dog injuring itself?
> 
> I understand that not everyone can immediately have control over a large dog, which is why I got involved in this thread. The head collar will not lead to control, and will only increase the confusion in the dog when the nose strap is removed. I am familiar with this equipment, have worked with dogs using head collars, have worked with trainers that use them exclusively, and have formed and educated opinion on their use. I, personally, have no use for them. Your experience may certainly differ. If they work for you and towards your goals, I understand your viewpoint.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of this.

But the dog pawing at the haltie, a tool the owner already has and had good success with, because it isn't used to the sensation of something on its face is not, in my opinion, a reason to toss the tool entirely. The OP stated it was working- which is already a step in the right direction. Doing some simple conditioning to get the dog used to wearing it doesn't seem like such a huge hassle.

As it stands, while I agree that working in small steps in a low stress environment towards the LLWing is best, we do not know the OP's situation. Maybe the time they are spending with this dog to walk it is the only time in the day that they can expend on it- and I can jive much easier with the idea of a dog getting to go out and experience the world, have some sort of meaningful interactions with its environment, while being managed until more training can occur. As opposed to keeping the dog on lockdown until the LLWing is perfected, because the owner cannot yet control it.

Perhaps just a differing of opinions.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Directly to your question: no, a piece of equipment should not be avoided because the dog is not used to it. The dog should be conditioned to the equipment before it's use. If this conditioning fails, take another path. If you lack the experience to reach your goals with the tools you know well, you should
> 
> 
> David Winners


What I was trying to say:

If you lack the experience to reach your goals with the tools you know well, you should seek advice from another source, preferably someone you can watch work a dog in the way they are suggesting.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I approach things in a way that I am the meaningful thing the dog needs to pay attention to. If they don't do that, I'm not taking them for a walk on a collar. I will take them to a place to exercise and put them on a harness and long line. I agree with getting the dog out and about and having it experience as much as possible. I just choose to do this with as little stress to the dog as I can manage.

It's ok that we have different opinions, and I think this is a good conversation. If there was only one way, training would be boring. I certainly value your opinion and contribution to the thread.

I find it easy to train LLW, using positive methods or leash pressure, and conditioning to the prong doesn't take long with most dogs. For me, it usually takes much longer to get a dog comfortable with something around their muzzle. The easy way, in my experience, is to teach the LLW.

David Winners


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I would sooner manage the situation than the dog at this point. I would train loose leash walking in the house or back yard, even if it takes a month, then move to a more distracting place. Why force equipment on the dog? Why is walking in a distracting environment more important than the dog injuring itself?
> 
> I understand that not everyone can immediately have control over a large dog, which is why I got involved in this thread. The head collar* will not lead to control,* and will only increase the confusion in the dog when the nose strap is removed. I am familiar with this equipment, have worked with dogs using head collars, have worked with trainers that use them exclusively, and have formed and educated opinion on their use. I, personally, have no use for them. Your experience may certainly differ. If they work for you and towards your goals, I understand your viewpoint.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree with the first bolded piece and agree totally with the second. I trained Archer to wear a halti and it caused him no distress at all and improved dramatically his willingness to walk calmly (they are used on a huge amount of dogs here in Ireland and I've never seen dog fighting againt them or acting in a manner that suggests the dog is distressed).
It's actually a terrific tool for city walking as you have complete control of your dog's head, and since GSDs are a restricted breed here, it passes in lieu of a muzzle on a regular basis.
Re control, Archer went from wearing a halti to a flat collar, though I use a running brace and a harness for different activities. He does not pull or drag and is a pleasure to walk anywhere, and I put a lot of that down to his wearing a halti when younger.
Like any tool, it has its place and should not be discounted. If it helps the OP, fantastic. I used to be dead set against prongs, but have changed my view through reading and listening to the experiences of other people: it would be nice if people could do the same re haltis.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If it works for someone, I think they should use it. Absolutely! I'm not trying to be a collar snob here. Whatever it takes for you and your dog to lead happy healthy lives.

I achieve results that I prefer with different training methods. Maybe I'm the one who is lacking in the proper knowledge of how to implement the head collar. What I do, train, and recommend is what works in my experience.

I think where we disagree is simple terminology. Management is physical, control is mental, to me.

The OPs dog is causing damage to itself pawing at the head collar. I would either take the time to condition the dog, or switch tactics. 

David Winners


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## BandErlPhoLa (Jul 18, 2013)

Sorry I hadn't been on here for ages and I didn't come back to this post; sorry! I appreciate everyone's advice though, and Arlene/Archer your dog is GORGEOUS!


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