# What to expect out of these lines?



## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Here is a breeding I put together and am looking for opinions on what you would expect.

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

I was hoping this would be a good topic for others to comment about with dogs such as Car Policia, Titus z Pohranicni Straze, Faro Pilicia, Orry, Jack Bily Trpsalik so that others can also learn about the lines too.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I noticed this thread earlier and was waiting for a response too.

Paging... Carmen and cliff. Has anyone seen carmen or cliff?


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

*What to expect from this pedigree?*

Yes I was hoping this would draw Cliff or Carmen too!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well if you were actually DOING the breeding, wouldn't you have a pretty clear expectation of what you were aiming for up front? Also wouldn't the actual parents play into that selection? Their own characteristics? Nothing seen there about them.

FWIW - I asked about a Czech x West German puppy I am getting (will get to do final eval before I commit) and not much really was offered in the way of comments...

- nothing esoteric or unknown in the lines going back from the grandparents, but the parents are probably not particularly known (father being only a young Schutzhund 2 dog and dam only being a working SAR dog with a TD on it, but working certs not listed. Same thing with working police dogs in the pedigree. 

I would think most comments are generated by folks who know and ahve seen the parents work.....


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

To guess I am thinking puppies with amount of good amount sharpness and strong workability. Good mix of sport and working dogs.
I would be concerned about hips. Bad hips on both sides of Titus PED. No hips/elbow scores on him. The mother's PED doesn't seem to have a significant hip improver.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Titus Pedigree: Titus comes from Sire Narys Policia which produces large bone, large blocky heads in which is known of the old type Czech dogs. "Faro Policia" the Czech dog that was known as a "hip" improver. His mother had a phenomenal record as hip producer, and is on record as not having produced any dysplastic pups in her litters. Faro also had good strong Czech temperament, with a little sharpness but grounded in nerve. He did not produce Sch competition type dogs, but he did produce dogs that were good in family and also Law Enforcement. I look at Faro as a good dog to bring in for strengthening hips.

Titus Dam Rena Zlodef Slnecnic, daughter of Car Policia & grand daughter of Titus z Pohranicni Straze, Titus is Bero's greatest son and is of legendary status in the Czech/Slovak world. He was excellent hip producer, big strong block heads, hard as a rock, and faultless nerve. He was a dog that produced real dogs in the true sense of the word.

Cassie pedigree: Jack is very storng big dark sable male, He has all the highest titles. Jack is social dog with very hard character. He loves bite and his ball drive is super. Jack has excellent pedigree!!! Jack's father - solid black male - ORRY - import from Italy - 5times the competiotor Championship Czech Republic, in the year 2005

Orry's sire and dam were both highly influential working and producing German Shepherd Dogs. They both were top International Level working dogs.

Orry's sire Dingo von conneforde - SchH3, Multiple World Team competitor where he placed 7th in Italy at the height of his career and was one of the top producing stud males during his famous breeding/working career.

Orry's dam Warra Gymor was Grim z Pohranicni Straze's most famous working/producing daughters. Warra was twice the champion of the Czech Republic -a 2 times FCI/WUSV competitor in Italy


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

NarysDad said:


> Titus Pedigree: Titus comes from Sire Narys Policia which produces large bone, large blocky heads in which is known of the old type Czech dogs. "Faro Policia" the Czech dog that was known as a "hip" improver. His mother had a phenomenal record as hip producer, and is on record as not having produced any dysplastic pups in her litters. Faro also had good strong Czech temperament, with a little sharpness but grounded in nerve. He did not produce Sch competition type dogs, but he did produce dogs that were good in family and also Law Enforcement. I look at Faro as a good dog to bring in for strengthening hips.
> 
> Titus Dam Rena Zlodef Slnecnic, daughter of Car Policia & grand daughter of Titus z Pohranicni Straze, Titus is Bero's greatest son and is of legendary status in the Czech/Slovak world. He was excellent hip producer, big strong block heads, hard as a rock, and faultless nerve. He was a dog that produced real dogs in the true sense of the word.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Titus PED:
Titus doesn't have any hips scores and only "I think 2 of his litter mates have hips scores listed. 
I personally wouldn't look for Faro to being a hip improver. I see him adding more seriousness to a breeding (aka less sport/more civil) as well as strong temperament.

Fatyma z PS - Really can't say that she never produced a dog with bad hips. Breed a dog enough times and he/she will produce some bad hips. PDB only lists 2 progeny and only one has hip scores so that record is inconclusive at best. 
Faro - Didn't know he was known as a hip improver. I do see that with Narys (his son) he produced B-1/2 hips. Narys litter mate has A 1/2 hips. The bad hips seem to becoming from Narys mother's side which is loaded with bad hips. 


Dam Side - Titus z PS was a legendary working dog and brought rock solid nerves & overall workability. Nice to have in a PED but also have to look at other dogs in it as well as Titus isn't the only dog. As for all the other dogs in the PED I am not that familiar with that and would have to research to tell you more.

Cassie PED:

Jack - Nice accomplished sport dog. I wouldn't say he has "all the highest titles" since he has only IPO3 & Sch3 but that is just me.

All the dogs in Cassie's side are awesome top level sport dogs with Orry & Gomo z JD. No doubt about it, it's a really nice PED. 

Now with all that said, we go back to looking at the pups from the breeding of Titus & Cassie. Yes, there are great dogs in both PED's which have some great workability IF they get into the right hands. Cassie's sport side should compliment the more serious side that Titus side of the PED brings.

I would still worry about hips but I certainly see the strength of workability making it worth the small risk. With no line breeding being present on THESE pups I would certainly wouldn't worry about dogs way back in the PED as their affect on the pups would be minimal. I would focus on the 1st (3) generations. I'd certainly like to know how they turned out.
I'd worry more about what the mother & father of this upcoming litter is doing. If they aren't titled then I would want to see how they work, JMO.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What is Cassie like on the field? Does she do flashy OB, good tracking, Strong protection?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Faro Policia is a nice dog to have in a pedigree for good hips, among some other things. This is a nice pedigree for producing good working dogs I would think, and Titus is like the Grief Lahntal of the working world.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm going to slide off topic for a bit....

What is everyone's definition of a "hip improver"? On what criteria do you assign this description to a dog?


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> Titus PED:
> I personally wouldn't look for Faro to being a hip improver. I see him adding more seriousness to a breeding (aka less sport/more civil) as well as strong temperament.
> 
> Fatyma z PS - Really can't say that she never produced a dog with bad hips. Breed a dog enough times and he/she will produce some bad hips. PDB only lists 2 progeny and only one has hip scores so that record is inconclusive at best.
> ...


Have you ever owned a Faro offspring. It makes me surprised by your comments About Faro or his dam Fatyma. Just cause you can't find the information on PDB, doesn't mean that it don't exist. Most stats on her wouldn't be on that site as the z Pohranicni Straze dogs were not recorded unless they were bred outside their facility. Breeding done by them would be recorded within and not public knowledge unless someone from there had share information any you were lucky to be on that end.

As or Titus, Titus has been known for improving the lines he had been bred to. this is why you see lots of less than him being bred to Titus. See the z Pohrancni Straze kennels had improved many lines after being bred to Titus. so one has to look at a pedigree and when seen Titus there would make one wonder why and what needed to be improved on when they brought females to breed to him

As for what Cassie has to offer: Cassie does do flashy Obedience and is a great tracker, but bite work isn't something she is great at but does perform. Cassie has great structure although has normal head size. I don't breed from titles rather to breed from known genetics.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

NarysDad said:


> Have you ever owned a Faro offspring. It makes me surprised by your comments About Faro or his dam Fatyma. Just cause you can't find the information on PDB, doesn't mean that it don't exist. Most stats on her wouldn't be on that site as the z Pohranicni Straze dogs were not recorded unless they were bred outside their facility. Breeding done by them would be recorded within and not public knowledge unless someone from there had share information any you were lucky to be on that end.
> 
> As or Titus, Titus has been known for improving the lines he had been bred to. this is why you see lots of less than him being bred to Titus. See the z Pohrancni Straze kennels had improved many lines after being bred to Titus. so one has to look at a pedigree and when seen Titus there would make one wonder why and what needed to be improved on when they brought females to breed to him
> 
> As for what Cassie has to offer: Cassie does do flashy Obedience and is a great tracker, but bite work isn't something she is great at but does perform. Cassie has great structure although has normal head size. I don't breed from titles rather to breed from known genetics.


No I don't have a Faro offspring. I didn't say anything bad about Faro. 
Again, here is what I said, "_Didn't know he (Faro) was known as a hip improver. I do see that with Narys (his son) he produced B-1/2 hips. Narys litter mate has A 1/2 hips. The bad hips seem to becoming from Narys mother's side which is loaded with bad hips."

_Now, do see that I did make a mistake with Narys mother's side. I saw that A 1/2 and totally overlooked that they are rated via FCI_.
_
With regards to Fatyma, do I think that she produced a high number of pups that didn't have bad hips? Sure. Do I think that EVERY dog that she produced didn't have bad hips, no. You are correct in that those records are not public. With that being said, I won't just believe that in the supposed 8 years of breeding no dog had bad hips. Jiri Novotny did a seminar here back in February and I need to go back to the tapes but I know for a fact he mentioned that no dog was perfect. Dogs they have now are better than the old z PS dogs. 
I think Fatyma produced great working dogs with good hips at a high percentage. As with every story once it gets told from person to person,it changes. You know how you get 30 people in a circle and one person whispers something into someone's ear and next person whispers into the next person ear until it comes back to the original person and it isn't quite what was originally said. I see this as the same as this story is no different. It went from "she produced a large percentage of dogs with very little bad hips" to "She rarely ever produced a dog with bad hips." to "she never produced a dog with bad hips." Breed a dog enough times you will come out with some deficiencies in some pups.

I never said this was a bad litter that is coming. I think it is a rather good one and would like to know how they turn out.


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