# Considering this puppy



## jone (May 4, 2009)

I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.


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## Kionacreek (Jan 22, 2021)

I’m not the expert that others on here are but I think there’s a pretty good probability that you’re going to get what you want color wise.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Titles of the parents. What training has been done to prove drives and temperament? Allergies in the lines?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Overall goals for their breeding program. What types of dogs they’re expecting to produce with the pairing of the sire & dam. What types of homes have they placed previous puppies… working? pet? sport? service? Why this particular puppy was selected for your family…

_Dark_ is subjective… she looks like (what i’d consider) an average / middle of the road sable.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Thank you. Good questions. They’re working line, I’m told “very high drive”. I selected her because adorable and the others are male. Sorry I’m not sure what you mean by “middle of the road sable” can you explain please. I have pics of both parents if that helps. 


Fodder said:


> Overall goals for their breeding program. What types of dogs they’re expecting to produce with the pairing of the sire & dam. What types of homes have they placed previous puppies… working? pet? sport? service? Why this particular puppy was selected for your family…
> 
> _Dark_ is subjective… she looks like (what i’d consider) an average / middle of the road sable.





Kionacreek said:


> I’m not the expert that others on here are but I think there’s a pretty good probability that you’re going to get what you want color wise.


🤞🏼


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Titles of the parents. What training has been done to prove drives and temperament? Allergies in the lines?


Thank you. I intended to inquire about titles & training but didn’t think of temperament, or allergies. I think I remember you. I was on here when my senior was a puppy. Hope all’s well with the doggers.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)




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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Those are the parents if that helps guessing her ultimate color.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

Good additional question list suggested. Meet the parents. The temperament quotient is EXTREMELY important. Other questions: Do they offer a health guarantee? Get details. Are there other puppies from this mating you can see/look into/contact owners to see or read about them? Are you fully aware of what "very high drive" actually means? Are you prepared to invest in training. Do the breeders have a take back/buy back if you cannot keep this puppy for any reason?

Re the mature color: We have been told how the puppy was at birth to about 3 days is what they will be as an adult. 

Very cute pup BTW.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

jone said:


> Sorry I’m not sure what you mean by “middle of the road sable” can you explain please.


average, regular, classic, traditional, medium, not light not dark.
i think she’ll be pretty close to mom.
i’d consider the dog below to be dark…


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Fodder said:


> average, regular, classic, traditional, medium, not light not dark.
> i think she’ll be pretty close to mom.
> i’d consider the dog below to be dark…
> View attachment 585341


Ok got you. I would consider that dog a black sable. But I am no expert. Appreciate your response.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

What experience do you have working herding breeds?
Do you know what you might be getting into with "very high drive"??????

Are you planning work/sport with this dog? Otherwise "I selected her because adorable and the others are male" could be concerning.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Puppy is out of state, quite far away. I’m sorry that I can’t meet parents ahead of pickup, will have to rely on information they provide and research. This is 1st litter with the pairing, I’ve seen pics of the other pups, they are black males like dad. 
I am well aware of high drive and that doesn’t scare me. But I’m not sure what “very high drive” means. I guess I’ll ask that also. I think I can cope with that, but maybe I need to consider what the word “very” might entail.
Training is a must, I’m prepared.
I saw an earlier picture of her and she was darker, I have already asked what color she was at birth and waiting for response.
Thank you for the other questions I should ask. Appreciate it.


SMcN said:


> Good additional question list suggested. Meet the parents. The temperament quotient is EXTREMELY important. Other questions: Do they offer a health guarantee? Get details. Are there other puppies from this mating you can see/look into/contact owners to see or read about them? Are you fully aware of what "very high drive" actually means? Are you prepared to invest in training. Do the breeders have a take back/buy back if you cannot keep this puppy for any reason?
> 
> Re the mature color: We have been told how the puppy was at birth to about 3 days is what they will be as an adult.
> 
> Very cute pup BTW.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you don't know what high drive means, think again unless you won't mind devoting your life to just raising this dog for the first 5 years. Puppies are only adorable for two months. I would be concerned as a breeder if you focused on color and the adorable factor. What other dogs do you have? Breed, ages?


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

WNGD said:


> What experience do you have working herding breeds?
> Do you know what you might be getting into with "very high drive"??????
> 
> Are you planning work/sport with this dog? Otherwise "I selected her because adorable and the others are male" could be concerning.


I was referring to the op question why the breeder selected her for me, whereas I selected her. I’m aware of the high drive of working line dogs, that I’m ok with. I have had a few German shepherds. I know what high drive is, but the “very” is something I’m not sure I do understand. I have an awesome trainer, a yard, and lots of time, and I love doing dog stuff. But no I don’t intend to do work training. Maybe herding, maybe agility, but there’s no schultzhund places near me so no protection or tracking training in the plan. I do a lot of country adventure trails, hiking swimming running. I have no problem being outdoors with a dog for hours every day. That’s my joy.
i suppose I need to find out the difference between high drive and very high drive. Might be helpful if breeder can provide video to demonstrate what very high means? I think I’m ok with that, but you’re right I better be certain.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The epiphany of a high drive puppy. I tried to copy from the Leerburg site. Check out Leerburg video on Youtube: So you want a high drive puppy


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> If you don't know what high drive means, think again unless you won't mind devoting your life to just raising this dog for the first 5 years. Puppies are only adorable for two months. I would be concerned as a breeder if you focused on color and the adorable factor. What other dogs do you have? Breed, ages?


I’ve had several German shepherds over past 42 years. I’m familiar with high drive but admittedly I don’t know what “very high drive” means . that’s something I do need to understand before taking this on.
I just lost an 18 year old and soon to lose my 13 year old. They were both a handful in their youth but super easy the past couple years. I miss doing dog activities for hours outdoors every day. I will be dogless soon but hopefully not for long.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> The epiphany of a high drive puppy. I tried to copy from the Leerburg site. Check out Leerburg video on Youtube: So you want a high drive puppy


Have seen that video, thanks for mentioning it. It’s important for potential adopters to understand. Very familiar with that kind of thing. I’m experienced in the breed for many decades.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> Puppies are only adorable for two months.


 You mean, for two months while still at the breeders, right? Lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am mentioning this to you since you have at least 42 years of dogs under your belt, like me. I am in my later 60's and Deja is what I consider a high drive dog. She is 8 years old and there is no dent in her energy or health, unlike mine. But she does sleep a bit more now but when she is on, she is on. She is my heart dog and soul mate and I dread the day we have to part. I am not planning getting a similar drive pup when she passes because I will be in my 80's when that dog is older.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> You mean, for two months while still at the breeders, right? Lol


Lol! Yeah after 2 months they ugly. 😂 
They’re adorable every day as long as they’re alive imo. I know they grow fast, it’s a process to get through but I am aware I’m getting a DOG not a puppy. She’s just passing through puppyhood briefly.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> I am mentioning this to you since you have at least 42 years of dogs under your belt, like me. I am in my later 60's and Deja is what I consider a high drive dog. She is 8 years old and there is no dent in her energy or health, unlike mine. But she does sleep a bit more now but when she is on, she is on. She is my heart dog and soul mate and I dread the day we have to part. I am not planning getting a similar drive pup when she passes because I will be in my 80's when that dog is older.


This is something I considered too. I’m 62, but tg very healthy and active. If I get this dog, she’ll be my last high drive pup. After this it’s medium drive only. 😅


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Idk if Id worry about high drive vs very high drive. If you’ve been around high drive working line german shepherds, you probably have an idea of what you’d be getting into. Personally Id go for more showlines /petlines if color and spending time outdoors were a main priority. Either way the breeder can give you references do people they’ve sold dogs too, which may help with some diligence


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

If you are not sure what very high drive means, respectfully, you have no business getting a dog like that.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Yes it’s a distinction that I’m not sure is relevant. High drive / very high drive. I mean once you’re in high drive you’re already in it. Degrees probably aren’t as significant as comparing medium drive to high drive. But I’m just assuming. Definitely I’m not concerned with high drive, I’m up for that. Maybe the breeder just intended to emphasis it to be sure I understood the puppy is high drive, and possibly she meant nothing additional by the word very. The comments on this thread have alerted me to the point that I have to determine what she means by that.
I will consider your comments. I do love all German shepherds, but I’ve never been partial to showlines myself. Maybe better I look for a working line with a bit less then very high drive.
good idea to contact others with her dogs and inquire about their drive and temperament. Appreciate your comments. thanks .


Sonny1984 said:


> Idk if Id worry about high drive vs very high drive. If you’ve been around high drive working line german shepherds, you probably have an idea of what you’d be getting into. Personally Id go for more showlines /petlines if color and spending time outdoors were a main priority. Either way the breeder can give you references do people they’ve sold dogs too, which may help with some diligence


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

If Zoey is the momma of this pup, she is a pup herself at only 18 months old. The sire would also be shy of 2 years old.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> If you are not sure what very high drive means, respectfully, you have no business getting a dog like that.


Can you explain the difference between high drive and very high drive? Could a person who copes well with a high drive animal not be able to handle very high drive? Is It another degree of drive or it’s just intense high drive. I’m not worried about high drive at all. 
maybe I misinterpret your comment but it landed in the unnecessarily rude category by my perception. Could have the opposite of your intended purpose cuz I’ll get a very high drive dog to prove you wrong. 😂


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Hellish said:


> If Zoey is the momma of this pup, she is a pup herself at only 18 months old. The sire would also be shy of 2 years old.


Oh! Well that’s interesting to know. 🙏 I’d ask more but I’ll direct questions where they belong. Thank you.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

jone said:


> Oh! Well that’s interesting to know. 🙏 I’d ask more but I’ll direct questions where they belong. Thank you.


Might also be interested in knowing that this isn’t a Working line litter either. Not sure you need to get hung up on _very high drives_ afterall.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

jone said:


> I was referring to the op question why the breeder selected her for me, whereas I selected her. I’m aware of the high drive of working line dogs, that I’m ok with. I have had a few German shepherds. I know what high drive is, but the “very” is something I’m not sure I do understand. I have an awesome trainer, a yard, and lots of time, and I love doing dog stuff. But no I don’t intend to do work training. Maybe herding, maybe agility, but there’s no schultzhund places near me so no protection or tracking training in the plan. I do a lot of country adventure trails, hiking swimming running. I have no problem being outdoors with a dog for hours every day. That’s my joy.
> i suppose I need to find out the difference between high drive and very high drive. Might be helpful if breeder can provide video to demonstrate what very high means? I think I’m ok with that, but you’re right I better be certain.


The term may mean different things to different buyers as well as breeders. 
But I don't know too many good breeders that will sell a "very high drive" GSD to a pet home, even an active one. Lots of medium drive working lines are more than a handful for even experienced owners.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Fodder said:


> Might also be interested in knowing that this isn’t a Working line litter either. Not sure you need to get hung up on _very high drives_ afterall.


Uhoh. Lol. So maybe she’s perfect after all. 😂😂😂 i need to go to school apparently, she seemed very credible. (See how I used “very”). 😆 honestly I knew that sire didn’t look WL but I figured he could be 1/2 - 1/2. She has yet to provide any information about the pedigrees. Making a little more sense now.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

WNGD said:


> The term may mean different things to different buyers as well as breeders.
> But I don't know too many good breeders that will sell a "very high drive" GSD to a pet home, even an active one. Lots of medium drive working lines are more than a handful for even experienced owners.


Yes I think she’s not got an authentic story going.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Pedigrees can be found on the breeders facebook page.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Fodder said:


> Pedigrees can be found on the breeders facebook page.


Oh she has a fb page? Well I’m glad I came here before doing anything crazy. 🙏🙏🙏 
Still love the puppy tho. Ugh.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

I appreciate everyone’s input and advice. I’m saving all your suggested questions for when I find the right puppy. You were all so thoughtful and generous. I will be rethinking my preference for a WL as a pet, as well as my approach to the finding and purchase of my next dog. It’s serious business finding a healthy and good dog. I can’t just fall in love and act on impulse. Even if I know I can handle high drive, why should I when I’m not intending to work and an easier dog will also make a lovely active companion. 
This puppy doesn’t actually have very high drive and she’s not WL, which should be a relief and make her a better choice. Except I can’t in good conscience do business with someone who intentionally misrepresented. I contacted her because I like the puppy, she voluntarily told me they were WL. I just thought, cool even better. I really didn’t mind if she was pet quality or show line or whatever. 
i live in NYC, imagine my surprise that I fell for bs. I should know better. I just had googly eyes for the baby and didn’t use my own senses. 
Thanks to everyone who helped me when I almost fell off the cliff. 😘
Dang it. And I was so excited about her. I still like the lil honey bear, she felt so right for me. 💔😭
I’m not looking for a while now. This indicates I’m not ready. Going to focus on getting my beloved 13 year old off the planet with as much love & dignity as I can provide. She deserves all my attention in these final days / weeks. 
Much respect & appreciation for those of you who were willing to advise me kindly. I’m grateful.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think you are hopscotching through dogs, lines, drives, etc. without knowing what you need or looking for. Drive is not something you can measure accurately; it's subjective, especially if you try to figure out high/very high. Why don't you just enjoy your old dog and let that dog live its life out in peace. A puppy is not something an old dog will appreciate as another house dog. I think someone mentioned that puppy fever is best cured by getting one.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> I think you are hopscotching through dogs, lines, drives, etc. without knowing what you need or looking for. Drive is not something you can measure accurately; it's subjective, especially if you try to figure out high/very high. Why don't you just enjoy your old dog and let that dog live its life out in peace. A puppy is not something an old dog will appreciate as another house dog. I think someone mentioned that puppy fever is best cured by getting one.


This exactly! I so badly want a pup out of my dog but I know he’d be miserable with a rude puppy hounding him in his senior years. He is my priority right now and a puppy can come later.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> I think you are hopscotching through dogs, lines, drives, etc. without knowing what you need or looking for. Drive is not something you can measure accurately; it's subjective, especially if you try to figure out high/very high. Why don't you just enjoy your old dog and let that dog live its life out in peace. A puppy is not something an old dog will appreciate as another house dog. I think someone mentioned that puppy fever is best cured by getting one.


My older dog actually likes puppies, she still acts like one herself when she’s up and going. But I don’t think they would’ve met anyway because Jiva is nearly ready to slip into mystery. It wasn’t my intention that I’d have them together because that would be madness. 
I’ve been missing coko and throwing away dog stuff and it’s all so sad. I suddenly couldn’t stand the thought of not having a dog and started to shop around without clarity. An emotional decision for sure. 
Funny comment, yeah I don’t have puppy fever so much as I just hate thinking how I’m soon dogless. 
also I wasn’t hung up on the drive part, but everyone else was and it caused me to question it myself. I wasn’t out trying to find a high drive dog, I was just willing to take that on. I don’t like things easy, I apparently love work because I make a lot of it for myself. Just because I can doesn’t mean I should.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Saphire said:


> This exactly! I so badly want a pup out of my dog but I know he’d be miserable with a rude puppy hounding him in his senior years. He is my priority right now and a puppy can come later.


I hadn’t intended to bring a puppy into the house at the same time I’m doing hospice care for my senior. Not because I think she’d hate it as much as it would truly be impossible to provide both what they need simultaneously. I was prematurely lining up a potential pup because my beloved is nearly done with her time on the planet. Looking forward to a puppy made it easier to face the reality of not having a dog here with me for the 1st time in 42 years.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Colour and looks will fade in time, you’ll always think your dogs are the best. it’s easier to overlook what might be required for the dog now while just looking at pictures, not so much after. I’d be running for the hills for very high drive, and I do a lot with my dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A high drive dog isn't hard to live with if it has nerve strength and good temperament. I'd be more concerned with thresholds than drive. High drive dogs are problematic when they have low thresholds and/or are hectic. It's also very challenging if they have no off switch.

Any dog with low thresholds and no off switch is hard to live with.

A dog of a family member stayed with me for about a year for 9 hours a day M-F, so I had ample time to work with this dog. He's a medium prey drive ASL. Easy to train. Great on hikes and in public. He's hard to live with. He never settles and is constantly alerting to everything outside. He's always pestering you, even in a down stay or place. He leaks a lot. My high drive WL dog is much easier to live with. When he is on, he's all in, but when it's time to chill, he can truly relax. We camp full time and having the nervy ASL hanging out in the campground would be terrible. He would need constant management because he can't control his emotions. He would be worked up all the time. My dog will just chill, even on a tie out while I'm going on and out of the camper making dinner while people and other dogs are walking by.

Just things to consider. I'd definitely work with a breeder that takes things like this into consideration. Talk about the parents and other offspring from the pairing. Talk to owners of their past litters and see what the dogs are like in the home. Any GSD is capable of being an extremely active companion, regardless of line. Look for dogs that will be easy to live with unless you have a particular working goal.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Good advice. Appreciate your comments. 

The breeder , I should maybe say “breeder”, finally got back to me and answered a lot of my questions and she now says the puppy is 1/2 WL and when she said “very high drive” she just meant it as a way to explain GSD in general in case I wasn’t aware the breed has drive in general. She says the sire is laid back and dam has drive and could probably use some work activities. So they aren’t at all what she initially presented. this pup is likely very suitable as a pet. I’m not sure why she started out with misleading statements, and it is a red flag. Ive now seen the parents pedigrees. She offers health guarantees, the parents are both checked for hips, elbows although she didn’t provide evidence as such yet. The dam tested clear for dm and sire is a carrier as is this pup. I’m not breeding so a carrier gene shouldn’t be of concern. She claims the temperaments of both parents indicate the pup would be a good pet. Drive in activities but will settle nicely at home. 
Not sure what to think about any of that since she was misleading initially. I will not get the puppy because I’m too far away to go see for myself and am concerned about her program. 
My heart melts when I see the lil honey bear’s photo, but I know that decisions made from emotions are generally not ideal.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The breeder and you need more education. It seems impossible to get the right dog between the two of you. Enjoy your sweet oldie. You won't regret saving him from dealing with a pup. It was a good idea to ask around here 🙂


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Yes I agree, had a 2 month battle with osteosarcoma, take the time and some time after


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> Yes I agree, had a 2 month battle with osteosarcoma, take the time and some time after


Sorry to hear that. It’s so heartbreaking when they’re not well. 
My girl has DM advancing quickly at this point. She’s always been super active, strong, & proud. When her back legs stop working, or even better sometime just before that, I’ll make arrangements to help her out the door. She can go find our Coko bear. Legs failing fast, I think the time to say goodbye is coming very soon. 
appreciate your advice, thank you.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I wouldn’t worry about the breeder being misleading since she clarified things when you asked. High drive is relative and any GSD will be a very high drive in comparison with some usual pet dogs like pugs or I don’t know, other happy go lucky dog breeds. Also, with puppies, you never know what you end up with at the end.

My dog turned out to be higher drive than we expected, low threshold, great nerves and thankfully an excellent off switch. He can really control the arousal and move between on and off states with ease, I worked on this but I do believe it’s a genetic quality. He’s very aware when out and about, an independent dog, not the devoted Velcro type as some shepherds are. If he were my first dog I think he would go back to the breeders.

He will also hang out in the front yard and will not charge a fence or bark at people or dogs (we have a heavy foot traffic in front of our house). He will hike day and nite and do anything he’s asked to with genuine delight. He is not intimidated by anything and a very happy dog. 

He’s over two years old now and I have a suspicion that we ended up with a dog that does have the ability to be a true working dog, but he’s a great and loved pet for us as well.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

jone said:


> Sorry to hear that. It’s so heartbreaking when they’re not well.
> My girl has DM advancing quickly at this point. She’s always been super active, strong, & proud. When her back legs stop working, or even better sometime just before that, I’ll make arrangements to help her out the door. She can go find our Coko bear. Legs failing fast, I think the time to say goodbye is coming very soon.
> appreciate your advice, thank you.


Sorry to hear, it’s never easy. Don’t under estimate the time to get over it, a puppy won’t help.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Sent PM.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jone said:


> I was prematurely lining up a potential pup because my beloved is nearly done with her time on the planet. Looking forward to a puppy made it easier to face the reality of not having a dog here with me for the 1st time in 42 years.


There is a puppy coming that I desperately, desperately want. I wanted the mother years ago and this will be her last litter. It is the perfect puppy for me, exactly what I have been searching for. 
My current dog is 12 this year, with a laundry list of health issues. I know I am on borrowed time here. She hates other dogs. I have never been with at least a dog. 
I am panicking. And making poor decisions on both sides. I am terrified that I will end up with NO dog. The rational part of my brain says this is a bad plan.
My current dog needs all of my love and attention right now. I owe her that. She has more then paid her dues.
I will probably do it anyway, but I am not very bright. Don't be like me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabi, if you are tempted to get a pup before your old gal is gone, let us know and we will keep you sane


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Sabi, if you are tempted to get a pup before your old gal is gone, let us know and we will keep you sane


If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus. 
I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Oh well, I tried 🤷‍♀️


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus.
> I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


If I had room for a pup, she could stay with me for a bit. Now that would be fun  I'm banned from new dogs until we get a bigger camper.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus.
> I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


Don’t worry. I offer a fine board and keep myself.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Carter Smith said:


> I’d be running for the hills for very high drive, and I do a lot with my dogs.


Exactly.
Hans wasn’t high drive, he was sold to me as the most mellow of his litter.
However, he was a nightmare as a puppy, and it was difficult for me to raise him.
Second time around, I went for a low drive pup, and he is perfect for me and my age and handling abilities. I’ll leave the very high drive for police and military, thank you very much.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus.
> I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


I thought you were talking about that litter, the thought of a pup from that litter scares me 😅


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Sunflowers said:


> Exactly.
> Hans wasn’t high drive, he was sold to me as the most mellow of his litter.
> However, he was a nightmare as a puppy, and it was difficult for me to raise him.
> Second time around, I went for a low drive pup, and he is perfect for me and my age and handling abilities. I’ll leave the very high drive for police and military, thank you very much.


Yep, I’ll probably say the same about mine


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> There is a puppy coming that I desperately, desperately want. I wanted the mother years ago and this will be her last litter. It is the perfect puppy for me, exactly what I have been searching for.
> My current dog is 12 this year, with a laundry list of health issues. I know I am on borrowed time here. She hates other dogs. I have never been with at least a dog.
> I am panicking. And making poor decisions on both sides. I am terrified that I will end up with NO dog. The rational part of my brain says this is a bad plan.
> My current dog needs all of my love and attention right now. I owe her that. She has more then paid her dues.
> I will probably do it anyway, but I am not very bright. Don't be like me.


Oh do I feel you. It isn’t always the wrong thing to do. Maybe arrange a meeting and see how your older dog reacts to the puppy before ruling it out.
20 years ago I got a 9 month old rescue / hot mess when my gsd dog was 14. My senior was really helpful in the rescue’s training and showed her how to be a good dog. My life was ****, slow walks with the old girl and then out again for brisk walks and a run with the other. Somehow I managed. And they did truly love each other. It seemed to perk up my 14 year old and gave her 1 last job. When my old gsd died at 15, the younger was inconsolably sad. We were both heartbroken. That night was the only time in her life she asked to climb into bed with me. We grieved together.
it was hard taking care of both when they both needed so much from me, but I never regretted it because their relationship was sweet. And I don’t know how I could possibly have taught the new dog all the things Cherry the dog taught her. She’d take Cherrys cues and fall in line with the program. It was immensely helpful.
It really is case by case depending on the dogs and also only possible if you are really up for 2 with completely different routines and diets and stuff.
my dog is super excited to even see other dogs, she loves meeting new friends and she’s always been into small dogs especially. She likes puppy energy. I really don’t think my dog would mind a puppy in the house, it’s more that i don’t want to relive the experience. 
I’m kinda hoping you get your pup. But only if you’re up for the challenge and if your senior isn’t sad or annoyed too much by it.


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus.
> I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


You know, you’re right. That isn’t a very smart idea. How about you give me the puppy and you’ll be free of that burden.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)




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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@David Winners that's just mean.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

David Winners said:


> View attachment 585441


Valors half sister says hi!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners that's just mean.


I'm thinking of starting my own board and keep program.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jone said:


> I’m kinda hoping you get your pup. But only if you’re up for the challenge and if your senior isn’t sad or annoyed too much by it.


You will find your perfect pup. Don't rush, take your time. I have been looking for a decade, David looked for years as well. 
Shadow will be devastated if I get this pup. She is my baby girl. I am well used to managing multiple dogs, but I don't enjoy it as much as I used to. I know I can make it work. I just don't like the potential cost to the dog that has given me everything she has. Like Saphire, I need to decide if it's fair. 
I would take a million puppies if I had it my way. Just wander around collecting random dogs.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Are you me? 😂


Sabis mom said:


> You will find your perfect pup. Don't rush, take your time. I have been looking for a decade, David looked for years as well.
> Shadow will be devastated if I get this pup. She is my baby girl. I am well used to managing multiple dogs, but I don't enjoy it as much as I used to. I know I can make it work. I just don't like the potential cost to the dog that has given me everything she has. Like Saphire, I need to decide if it's fair.
> I would take a million puppies if I had it my way. Just wander around collecting random dogs.


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

Fodder said:


> Might also be interested in knowing that this isn’t a Working line litter either. Not sure you need to get hung up on _very high drives_ afterall.


GM. Found the pedigrees. 😳 I don’t dont know how to understand the pedigrees, but it’s clear even to me that these are both light.
I want an education. Is there someone here who can help me learn to read and understand pedigrees better or is there a tutorial online you can direct me to?
Things that stand out here are the lack of credentials and accomplishments as well as spotty ofa testing, and a few very young dams. I have several questions, some specifically related to these and most about pedigrees in general. Where can I direct them for assistance? Ty


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Can you post the pedigrees here for people to look at?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> If I don't take this puppy I am giving up on my chance to own an Ellie Mae pup. And a Valor sister. Gus is just a bonus.
> I wanted Ellie herself. Like I said, I'm not very smart.


I can keep the pup here for as long as you like until you're ready. I'm closer, after all ....
She'd have 2 furry buddies, a creek and pond ot explore and lots of woods to adventure in.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

jone said:


> GM. Found the pedigrees. 😳 I don’t dont know how to understand the pedigrees, but it’s clear even to me that these are both light.
> I want an education. Is there someone here who can help me learn to read and understand pedigrees better or is there a tutorial online you can direct me to?
> Things that stand out here are the lack of credentials and accomplishments as well as spotty ofa testing, and a few very young dams. I have several questions, some specifically related to these and most about pedigrees in general. Where can I direct them for assistance? Ty


i think you’ve got a decent handle on the basics when it comes to red flags… very young dams, lack of titles, missing health clearances. there is no tutorial that i know of. naming conventions can typically point you in the direction of what lines a dog is from - ASL example being Ch Little Bad Dog Keystone or Misty Meadow’s Diva, etc. vs names with von/vom. It takes a bit more research and experience to narrow the lines down further (west german, czech, etc) or to gain more insight about particular dogs.

one thing that stood out in this particular situation - the dams parents, their names… i’d want to verify that they aren’t siblings.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jone said:


> Are you me? 😂


I checked with all the voices in my head. I am not you, none of us are.


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## Harris Hill GSD Farm (Nov 9, 2020)

jone said:


> I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.
> View attachment 585337


She is beautiful!! Her toe penciling is gorgeous


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## glorytoglory55 (Nov 30, 2021)

jone said:


> I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.
> View attachment 585337


She looks adorable. Have you ever had a Shepherd before.? She will most likely be very dark sable. If she comes from working lines be ready to do lots of work. They can be very high drive, and too much for the regular person looking for a pet. Not that titles are not important, but not everyone wants a dog bouncing off the walls.. Ask lost of questions..


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## glorytoglory55 (Nov 30, 2021)

Hellish said:


> If Zoey is the momma of this pup, she is a pup herself at only 18 months old. The sire would also be shy of 2 years old.





jone said:


> I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.
> View attachment 585337


It seems these parents are not even old enough for OFA, do they have dm clear? She will be very dark. But theres more to consider than just color.


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## srp1957 (Jul 14, 2021)

jone said:


> Thank you. Good questions. They’re working line, I’m told “very high drive”. I selected her because adorable and the others are male. Sorry I’m not sure what you mean by “middle of the road sable” can you explain please. I have pics of both parents if that helps.


Based on your questions, if she’s truly a “very high drive” dog you may be getting more than you bargained for. Any breeder describing their dogs as such, probably doesn’t know what a very high drive dog is. If they’re reputable and it’s truly a high drive dog, they wouldn’t let you take her home. Caveat Emptor.

A dog like that needs a “job” and will require lots of training. If you plan on Schutzhund, then ok, but know what you’re signing up to.

There are lots of low-medium drive pups out there that need love. They have plenty of energy and are very smart. They just won’t be using those attributes to test you every minute of every day!

It’s your decision, obviously, I just don’t want you to be yet another new owner on this forum shopping around for a new home for a dog that wasn’t a good fit. Temperament is way more important than looks.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

This is a 4 page thread….. OP has since decided to pass on the pup.


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

jone said:


> I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.
> View attachment 585337


Ok I think I'm in love too.... 🥰


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## mewhoshops (Jul 25, 2021)

The one question that I regret asking was about the temperament of the parents. After a few months we noticed his stubborn side coming out and then asked…both parents are stubborn and dominant so it’s been quite the ride for us. His high drive is toward our cats…one in particular but she seems to enjoy the play until it becomes too rough so my day is spent monitoring, and shuffling cats from one end of the house to the other. 
I have been dog sitting my daughters lab and they have been having a blast playing together so the cats have been given somewhat of a break. He definitely needs hard play and mental stimulation to wear him out.


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

jone said:


> I think I’m in love but don’t want to jump too quickly. What questions should I be asking besides health of elbows, hips , and dm gene? I’m hoping for a dark sable, I realize it’s not possible to know for certain; but does she look like she’ll be dark? Her momma is dark sable the sire is all black. They’re akc.
> View attachment 585337


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

Hello...Your puppy will be a dark sable... ... ...Dark Sable Dam X Black Sire=Dark Sable puppy...I have 7 Working Line GSD's and have many more...What's the pedigree of the puppy your interested in and what are your intentions for it?


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## jone (May 4, 2009)

BleuHaus said:


> Hello...Your puppy will be a dark sable... ... ...Dark Sable Dam X Black Sire=Dark Sable puppy...I have 7 Working Line GSD's and have many more...What's the pedigree of the puppy your interested in and what are your intentions for it?


Thanks for your reply. But it’s a hard pass on the puppy for a number of reasons. Biggest being the pedigrees. 💔 Will find the right one in the right time. I learned a lot about what I want and how to find it in this process so it wasn’t a total loss.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

srp1957 said:


> Based on your questions, if she’s truly a “very high drive” dog you may be getting more than you bargained for. Any breeder describing their dogs as such, probably doesn’t know what a very high drive dog is. If they’re reputable and it’s truly a high drive dog, they wouldn’t let you take her home. Caveat Emptor.
> 
> A dog like that needs a “job” and will require lots of training. If you plan on Schutzhund, then ok, but know what you’re signing up to.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I said, in one short sentence, between packing for an international trip… but OP found me rude.
Serves me right for trying , LOL.


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## Réa538 (Mar 25, 2021)

SMcN said:


> Good additional question list suggested. Meet the parents. The temperament quotient is EXTREMELY important. Other questions: Do they offer a health guarantee? Get details. Are there other puppies from this mating you can see/look into/contact owners to see or read about them? Are you fully aware of what "very high drive" actually means? Are you prepared to invest in training. Do the breeders have a take back/buy back if you cannot keep this puppy for any reason?
> 
> Re the mature color: We have been told how the puppy was at birth to about 3 days is what they will be as an adult.
> 
> Very cute pup BTW.


I agree with your comment on color. While it's not accurate 100% of the time, it definitely held true for my Brody boy. His sire was dark sable and dam was black. Brody grew to be a very dark sable. His coat was nearly all black when he was born and then he got lighter, much like the pic you posted, then got dark again. It asked if the breeder they had pictures of how the sire's coat changed over time, and his did the same. That bit of penciling on the feet is also an indicator that his coat will darken up. CUTE PUP!


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