# Low Pack Drive



## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

Has anyone has experienced a GSD with a very low pack drive and low prey drive as well? What's your experience and tips for this kind of dogs?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lower your expectations if you had any, don't compare him to other dogs, and plan on doing a lot of repetitions for anything you want from him. Then enjoy what you have.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Not one of my own dogs, but I have helped people with dogs like this. Nothing is free. Dog must work for its food, work for its toys (if it even will play), etc. They must depend on you for everything.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Are you sure it is a low pack drive and not an issue with bonding?


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

We are doing that, he won't play with toys haha but it's becoming so but su hard to maintain this dog meaning...he has a bunch of energy and walks are doing nothing, we always do quick training sessions at parks and...he runs a little bit with recalls but again does not too much. We are having an evaluation with a trainer in 2 weeks (horraaaay) and waiting for a second evaluation with another trainer. I can't wait to have them lol. 



lhczth said:


> Not one of my own dogs, but I have helped people with dogs like this. Nothing is free. Dog must work for its food, work for its toys (if it even will play), etc. They must depend on you for everything.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

How old is he?


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

Uhm...don't think so... how would you describe a bad bond? And how would you describe a dog who has a low pack drive?



voodoolamb said:


> Are you sure it is a low pack drive and not an issue with bonding?


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

He's going to be 3 years old in a couple of months.



Deb said:


> How old is he?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are days when I wouldn't mind that kind of a life.


"We are doing that, he won't play with toys haha but it's becoming so but su hard to maintain this dog meaning...he has a bunch of energy and walks are doing nothing, we always do quick training sessions at parks and...he runs a little bit with recalls but again does not too much. We are having an evaluation with a trainer in 2 weeks (horraaaay) and waiting for a second evaluation with another trainer. I can't wait to have them lol. "

a 3 year old dog . 
what kind of "toys" . Does he have a box full of toys and you expect him to pick from and amuse himself with?

a quick brush up at the park with happy free runs , with here and there unreliable recalls ? You have handed the dog
the life of Riley . 

probably wanders around the house , flakes out on the couch , has his dietary whims catered to. 

age 3 -- so what do you want to see from him. 

can you start by creating some distance between the two of you -- time and space. 
nothing makes the heart grow fonder than separation -- so far you are taken for granted.

create a spot in the yard - a safe dry kennel protected from wind , providing shade , and shelter from rain.

you put him in there. you take him out when YOU are ready . You do your walk and your training with him on lead .
You direct what happens and where he goes . No big party when he gets home - right back into kennel.

He'll look forward to your visits and joint activity.

Choose some activity where you make him work for something.

You can do something as simple as going to the grocery and bringing back a few small boxes which can nest into each other for easy storage.

teach him to look for his food concealed under a box . Show him at first. Look dog , here is your food , now watch this , tilt box so you can slide food under , release dog - go find it. Good - he has his reward . No more

second day - he is out of sight . You have prepared the box with hidden food. He may come in to room and not have a clue - you make him think and work -- he may look to you for help - "connection" -- tap box , here it is - good guy.

keep doing this - dog out of sight - wait -- bring dog in , ask him to find his food -- you are doing something with the dog -- engaging in something co-operative . If he doesn't participate , well , as the lottery ticket sales people say ,
you have to play to win .

when walking you and the dog get into the same zone. That means you aren't looking down on your phone screen and the dog isn't smelling every clump of grass along the way. 
Have a goal . Throw in your obedience there . Be unpredictable , make and keep him connected .

no free run .

low prey drive? what would happen if a squirrel ran out in front of you?


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> there are days when I wouldn't mind that kind of a life.
> 
> 
> "We are doing that, he won't play with toys haha but it's becoming so but su hard to maintain this dog meaning...he has a bunch of energy and walks are doing nothing, we always do quick training sessions at parks and...he runs a little bit with recalls but again does not too much. We are having an evaluation with a trainer in 2 weeks (horraaaay) and waiting for a second evaluation with another trainer. I can't wait to have them lol. "
> ...


Overall he has too much structure in his life that at this point I feel like is too...but too robotic but if I give him freedom, the gremlin inside of him comes out.

He never wanders at the house, if he's not on his crate he is on "place" command. BUT he's always inside the house building a kennel outside sounds like a great idea. 

Food, he works for his food, food means training time for him but the idea of the boxes sounds so great! I will do it, is something fun and out of the routine and I'm sure he will like it. 

Walks, we always have structured walks, I decide where he can pee, if I stop he sits and give eye contact, if he did good I will let him sniff here and there as a reward (and i am talking of a 15-30 second reward).

Recall, he has good recall we do it daily at a park (that's his freaking 5 min of running- but NO free roaming).

Toys, out of dog reach, like I said he doesn't play with toys I have to be the most entertaining thing when the toy comes out and build some...toy interest lol sometimes he is sometimes he is not.

I have been renting leeburg dvd's, and I am learning a lot must say that I need to be more sharp on my body movements of how to invite a dog to play tug, how to present a toy. Happy that I have found a trainer, I know for sure she has mastered that lol. Could be me failing or could be the dog that seriously does not care for toys at all.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Are you sure your dog has fun? Maybe look at his life from his point of view. How much fun are you for him? Your description reminded me of a career-changed guide dog I had in my pet dog class. He was complete uninterested in anything. He had become a robot without any initiative.
Are you worried you will lose control in a non-structured situation?
I don't mean all this to be disrespectful, just wondering.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You could be squishing him, and I'm not knocking you with this, but nagging him is a pretty easy to fall into. It can be tough to know what exactly is ok when you give him the time he needs, to just be a dog. I still think though, at 3 he is what he is and you have to be realistic about that and not compare him to other dogs you see light up at the thought of a ball. Thats one way you end up never really enjoying your dog.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

karladupler said:


> Overall he has too much structure in his life that at this point I feel like is too...but too robotic but if I give him freedom, the gremlin inside of him comes out.
> 
> 
> 
> He never wanders at the house, if he's not on his crate he is on "place" command. BUT he's always inside the house building a kennel outside sounds like a great idea.



So what happens if "the gremlin inside of him comes out"? What does that mean? What does he do? 

Also, I may be reading this wrong, but in the house he's either in a crate or in a down stay?


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> So what happens if "the gremlin inside of him comes out"? What does that mean? What does he do?
> 
> Also, I may be reading this wrong, but in the house he's either in a crate or in a down stay?


Wondering about this too! And curious about the gremlin?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree with maybe lower your expectations for this dog. Teach him manners and make him abide. And just be happy with taking him as far as you can.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

karladupler said:


> Overall he has too much structure in his life that at this point I feel like is too...but too robotic but if I give him freedom, the gremlin inside of him comes out.
> 
> He never wanders at the house, if he's not on his crate he is on "place" command. BUT he's always inside the house building a kennel outside sounds like a great idea.
> 
> ...


Always in a crate or in a place command? What if he's thirsty? 
You start to question the point of owning a dog if you never allow them to be a dog. 
Putting so many restraints (place command, sit on the dog, constant micromanaging) doesn't help a bond build. Because that dog, will find something a lot funner to do.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Many GSDs live to be next to their person. They tend to be velcro dogs who want to follow you around inside the home. Plopping in the middle of the kitchen floor during dinner prep, lying next to the computer when I'm working, whatever -- it's all about being next to ME with my dogs. That's one of the things I find so endearing about the breed. Even my foster dogs practice that behavior. If your dog doesn't do that, then I would think it may very well be a bond issue. 

Instead of limiting to two places in the home, how about putting him a leash inside the home, and letting him follow you around, while you help him with house manners? I do this for a couple of weeks with my new foster dogs, and even the mischief-filled adolescents tend to become pretty great house dogs in that time. It's easy to gently correct bad behavior (stay out of the waste basket, don't chew on my office chair, etc.), and reward them for being calm and lovely (I keep a treat pouch or fill my pocket with very high-value, meaty treats and drop them occasionally when they're chilling next to me and being good).

Have you had him since he was a pup, or did he come to you recently? How do you play together? What do you do with him for fun?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Magwart said:


> Many GSDs live to be next to their person. They tend to be velcro dogs who want to follow you around inside the home. Plopping in the middle of the kitchen floor during dinner prep, lying next to the computer when I'm working, whatever -- it's all about being next to ME with my dogs. That's one of the things I find so endearing about the breed. Even my foster dogs practice that behavior. If your dog doesn't do that, then I would think it may very well be a bond issue.


All my (foster) dogs were like this, except the Whippets; they kept a close eye on me from their comfy chair but that is the breed's trait. Bit the GSDs topped it to the point that they keep me company when I am cleaning the toilet!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Funny how the issue is about 'low pack drive' and never once is it expressed how the dog interacts with other dogs.​
Does the dog ever meet dogs? If he doesn't, could that be an issue? Humans are a poor substitute to an actual pack of dogs or interaction with dogs especially if all we want to do is impose rules for the dog.

Strict NILIF would be great way to spend ones live wouldn't it. Think about it from the dogs perspective. 

Throw out the old rule book and release the gremlin.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that is the relationship that you have with this dog.

at 3 there isn't going to be much of a change . 

the "pack" isn't other dogs . Too easy .

The reformed pack , the very reason we have invited dogs into our lives is to have helpful- companions , without which the entire history of human kinds success would be very very different.

in nomadic and old style agricultural or hunter-gatherer societies dogs are still an integral part of the family or community.

the dogs are not indulged and intentionally kept in a perpetual puppy-state , and nor are children allowed to stall at teenager hood for their entire lives.

that is the human - dog pack . 

do something that approximates working toward a mutually beneificial solution.

the box game for feeding - initiates motivation and hunt drive -- you find , you eat . 

do some tracking . do nose-works -- teach a chore -- I had a dog who had her proudest moments when she was allowed to carry home a bag of gristle scraps from the butcher . There was a swagger to her .
We went together , we each had something , the chore had value , and the reward was her enjoying the contents of the bag at home when she was given it.

dogs like to have a purpose .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

letting this dog have fun running with the doggy mob drives a wedge between this dog and the owner .

so much more rewarding , so much more fun.

just like in another thread a young pup , 15 weeks of age , is given an opportunity to play with a similar aged border collie pup . There are some pleasant times. another dog , a schnauzer enters the scenario with different dynamics and the subject GSD pup responds in a way the owner would not prefer.

If there is future reliance on pup-to-pup exposure then things can work against you and you end up with a dog who prefers same species social contact and a dog who will get so excited and strain and whine to make contact -- or have side effects brought out by frustration .


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> letting this dog have fun running with the doggy mob drives a wedge between this dog and the owner .


It might just show the true spirit of the dog and show the owner it is a dog and likes to run and have fun.

Such party poopers are people who will shield a dog from it's relations, as in other dogs. 

How hard is it to find well behaved dogs to interact with too. You suggesting dogs in a pack have to have a mob mentality is misleading.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nota bene -- this person isn't happy with the pack dynamics -- dog is indifferent ? to her .

maybe feels she is just an attendant meeting the dogs needs 

no matter what the dog is - what it looks like , whatever flaws it has other wise , they want to have that
dog appreciate them , "love" them - a minimum expectation 

there has to be mutual involvement --


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