# Would you breed this dog?



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm not a breeder buit I have an opinion on what I would do in this situation and am wondering if I'm right or way off.

A freind of a freind wants to breed GSD. She has a male, who has health problems and will not be used. She has a female, not sure of age, and has just acquired a female puppy, which I think is aobut 3 months now. I believe all three got along.

She put the puppy and the female in one crate (I wouldn't have done that) and the female attacked the puppy. Damage was done to the face area and several areas required stiches. It turned out that the female went into heat shortly after the attack.

She wants to breed this female.

The female attacking the puppy could have been because of the heat and because they were in one kennel together. I don't know enough to make a solid conclusion. I would be very hesitant to breed this female, as I would be worried about her reaction to her puppies. To the experienced breeders, what is your opinion.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

NO!


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## LadyHawk (Jan 19, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaryW
> 
> She put the puppy and the female in one crate (I wouldn't have done that) and the female attacked the puppy. Damage was done to the face area and several areas required stiches. It turned out that the female went into heat shortly after the attack.
> 
> ...




Please do not take this with disrespect. But putting 2 animals (yes, they are actually animals) Females of all things.....in a crate together and leaving them unsupervised is about the most irresponsible thing I have heard of in awhile......
Especially at the expense of that puppy. I have no idea of the conformation, health or temperment of said female(bitch). However, I can say with pretty much 100% accuracy that your friend is not in the position to be whelping a litter. Nor to make the decision based upon one attack. There are many factors to breeding a quality bitch. 

I would suggest that she take a peek on PetFinder and the Urgent and Not- Urgent section of this board. Take a peek at the faces of those babies whom have no home or life due to this economy....
People are giving away dogs. It's not really the time to be breeding. And especially a dog whom is not proven sound of health OR Conformation. 

I know this response will seem very severe and rash. But the best are to be bred for the betterment of the breed; the continuation of great lines; of great form, health anf temperment. 
Not for the whim or the money.
It's a very serious endeavor.
PS every one of my animals is Spayed and/or neuetered. I am an ex animal control officer and currrently a vet tech. 
I am not a breeder nor will I ever be (no interest on my part) 
I leave that to people whom know the lines, know the best dogs to be selected and are dedicated to the quality of the breed. 
If your friend fits these parameters, as her dogs do as well...tell her to go ahead with 'our' blessings.......... if not, please to leave it to folks whom do the best interest of promotion the best qualities of this phenominal breed.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

She is not my friend. I have never met her, but information is being shared because the one in the middle is connected to both of us. Unfortunately I have no influence over her and have only expressed my opinion mildly. My opinion would not make a difference to her, except make others around me uncomfortable if I were to expressed my opinion more strongly.

There is no doubt in my mind that she should not be breeding, period. She does not show, she does not do obedience. This is not someone whom I would want to purchase a puppy from. This is her first time, not sure if she has a mentor or not.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I wouldn't rule out breeding the bitch based on the incident with the puppy. 
Leaving two dogs crated together without supervision (actually probably even WITH supervision would be bad) was a mistake. I wouldn't think that the poor result would reflect negatively on either dog.
If she doesn't want to use the male for a sire, I think it would be best to have him neutered.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't usually comment on who should breed and who shouldn't. However, if someone is that inexperienced, where they put a puppy in that siituation, they have no business trying to breed dogs. A little common sense about animals is required.


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## sunnygirl272 (Dec 10, 2003)

I would say even if the female's pedigree was impeccable...she has no dang business breeding.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I very seldom comment on breeding threads, however, IMHO if this woman is so clueless that she'd crate two unsupervised dogs in one crate, and even more important two unsupervised bitches in one crate, she'd probably be irresponsible in other areas, including breeding.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

She shouldnt be breeding, but not based on the fact that the bitch attacked the puppy. 

She shouldnt be breeding because she seems pretty clueless about dogs in general, shown by how she put an adult female and a puppy in a crate together!


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI don't usually comment on who should breed and who shouldn't. However, if someone is that inexperienced, where they put a puppy in that siituation, they have no business trying to breed dogs. A little common sense about animals is required.


I totally Agree!!!


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

The Dog may be fine as a breeding animal.. not enough info really, but the woman should probably be spayed and placed as a pet.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Windwalker...those were my thoughts exactly!!!


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18The Dog may be fine as a breeding animal.. not enough info really, but the woman should probably be spayed and placed as a pet.


I choked on my pop on that one! lol!


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

Severe and rash aren't really words I would agree with. And I don't want to send the message I know anything about breeding dogs. I have been lurking and reading alot of posts in GS.com lately. But I read all kinds of posts about only "for the good of the breed". Seems to me like if everyone, and I mean everyone were thinking for "for the good of the breed" , then there should be no argument about "the health of the breed" I read over and over about all the titles every GSD should have. Thats really great, but health issues as it relates to the GSD with the "titles" and "all" of it's offspring should come into question at some point also. I hear ppl on here talk how the gentleman who is the founding father of the breed would like or dislike this title or that title. I think he would probably be more than disgusted at the health issues, more than what the breed can or can't do. I would think as a very responseable breeder, all the health problems that rear their ugly heads later in life and with the offspring should be included in the decision to ever breed the animal again. I know every problem is probably not genetic, alot are though. Seems as though anytime humans manipulate breeding anything, money and greed are more at stake than the betterment of the breed. Not everyone mind you, but more often than not. And I am not pointing fingers. I've been a breeder of horses for over 25 years and we all have problems too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You should not throw out the baby with the bathwater either. If you remove from the breeding pool every dog that has produced a dog with a serious, possibly genetic problem, then the breed will eventually die out completely because the dogs left to breed will be so few that their genetics will be seriously compramised so that they too will be rejected from the gene pool.


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerYou should not throw out the baby with the bathwater either. If you remove from the breeding pool every dog that has produced a dog with a serious, possibly genetic problem, then the breed will eventually die out completely because the dogs left to breed will be so few that their genetics will be seriously compramised so that they too will be rejected from the gene pool.


 Understood. Then if that being the case, I guess I need someone to tell me why most on this site talk about only using the best of the breed? Don't use BYB. Don't buy from them, because of the bad traits they breed into the GSD. Sounds to me, as if alot of the GSD breeders are talking the talk, but not walking the walk.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why would you want to support a BYB? They do not research or have the proper health tests in place to assure having a healthy litter, They take their chances, get their money for the pup and are done with it. 
Titles mean something, if they are earned properly. Otherwise, they are just letters and numbers following the dogs name.

I think 90% of the breeders _on this board_ are reputable and do walk the walk. Otherwise they would be called out on their practices, maybe not publicly, but the fallout would be apparent.

That is why it is a good idea to look at past litters, and their achievements, health before thinking of going with a certain breeder. The odds are better, if there is success and happy puppy owners.
.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hang on, if you wait until a bitch is two to breed her, and she has a litter, and a pup out of that litter is diagnosed with DM when it is 5 years old. The bitch is already too old to be bred again. So do you retire the stud? 

Lets say the stud has produced 10 litters and this is the only pup that developed DM. Could it have been the bitch? 

There is a lot more to it than just not breeding either again. If a dog develop a clearly genetic problem and it is relayed in time to add this to your breeding decision, of course. 

I think when you match a bitch to a dog, you are looking at improving certain aspects, and preserving certain things. If the litter turns out what you want, then you might repeat the breeding, if it does not, then you have determine which of the pair is the contributer. 

All reputable breeders take into consideration all the facts of their dogs, their lines, their history, their accomplishments, their health, their confomation, their progeny when making breeding decisions. They have to weigh each item on the list, and decide whether to repeat a breeding, or whether to try with a different stud or dam, or to retire a breeding animal. 

Just because your bitch has OFA good hips, if she throws dysplastic puppies then you will scratch her from your breeding program. But you have to know if it is the dog or the bitch.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

No.


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlWhy would you want to support a BYB? They do not research or have the proper health tests in place to assure having a healthy litter, They take their chances, get their money for the pup and are done with it.
> Titles mean something, if they are earned properly. Otherwise, they are just letters and numbers following the dogs name.
> 
> I think 90% of the breeders _on this board_ are reputable and do walk the walk. Otherwise they would be called out on their practices, maybe not publicly, but the fallout would be apparent.
> ...


 I'm not going to support a byb. I just have to wonder as a prospective GSD buyer, that as I read through alot of posts, it sounds like a gamble, a crap shoot if you will. Buying a puppy should not be such a gamble, but it sounds like, almost across the board that it is. Just less of a chance with a reputable breeder.


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

Selzer, That explanation I can live with . Thats why I'm not a breeder of dogs. But I understand what your're saying. Thank you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, it boils down to research as I wrote in my last paragraph. Nobody twists anyones arm to buy a puppy from anyone. Research is free. By taking time, and checking out the past progeny you will have better odds of getting it right.
And you are right, it is a crapshoot. I think with any breed of dog. Just like having children, never know what will happen there, either.... have to take the chance you are doing the right thing.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

There's different craps (no pun intended).
Duramax, you're just loading the dice in your favor by going to the most knowledgeable and ethical breeders. I'm sure you know that from breeding horses.
There's no guarantee but I like the odds of 90% problem free compared to 50% problem free.
Even though this is a GSD forum, it has maybe .001% of all GSD breeders out there. So whatever is written in this forum does not encompass the entire world of GSD breeders. This is just a very small sample of a very big population. A lot of bad breeders don't post in forums like this because they'll be exposed.


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