# Need help with an aggressive Shepherd



## pjam (Jan 5, 2015)

Hello everyone,

My guy Jax is 1 1/2 yr old. He has been very aggressive around my other other people. I can't even bring him to the vet because he wants to kill everyone in there. The aggression is starting to carry over into the home with the kids and not sure what to do at this point.
We brought him to a trainer and they said that he is doing it more out of fear than straight aggression. 
I do not know what to do at this point now. My wife or I do not feel safe with the dog in the house with the kids and we can't properly take care of him if we can't bring him to ver.
I am in Greenville,SC if anyone can help. We are heart broken.
my email is [email protected]
Thanks


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

This can't be solved over the internet.You need a trainer to actually work with your family and the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can you give us a time line for the 18 months that the pup has been alive? For example only:

8 weeks, came home from breeder.

12 weeks, started puppy classes.

18 weeks finished pupppy classes and started basic.

6 months graduated basic training, got rabies vaccination, didn't like vet techs.

10 months noticed some negative behavior and called a trainer.

12 months was asked to not bring him to the dog park since he attacked a small dog there.

14 months, called another trainer for some food aggression issues, got 1 year booster at vet, had to muzzle him there.

18 months, needs another rabies shot, but needs to be muzzled, trainer says he is fear-aggressive, but he looks like the Tasmanian Devil. Can't have visitors over, and he has started grumbling towards the kids.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Keep him away from your kids. If what you're describing is accurate, I don't care what any trainer, behaviorist, or general expert has to say. That's not a dog I'd ever trust with my kids.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

pjam said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> We brought him to a trainer and they said that he is doing it more out of fear than straight aggression.


Like others pointed out, something like this can't be solved over internet.

As Dogma pointed out, you need to work with the trainer. You say "we brought him to a trainer", is it just for evaluation or did you actually train with them and completed the course(s)?

Remember that obedient dog is tired dog (I think that's how it goes, but may be a bit off). If you work with him and get him tired physically and more importantly mentally, he should be more obedient, calm and the more he learns, the more confidence it will give you both.

Mine started off more barky, but now he is becoming calmer and we are getting compliments from neighbors that he used to bark at on how much better he is behaving now.

Obviously each dog is unique and does require work. Changes won't happen overnight, just find a good trainer that both you and the pup will enjoy going to and work.

Hope you get it under control! And definitely have him supervised/crated inside the house for everyone's (including the dog) safety until you get a hold of the situation.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

maybe someone can suggest a trainer in Greenville for this person.

Or a vet in the area who knows more about GSDs


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Try Astro kennels in Simpsonville. They have experience with German Shepherds including police K9s. So they should have the experience and tools to advise and hopefully help you. 

In the mean time as others have said, be very careful with your dog. I hope you can work this out.

http://www.astrokennels.net/


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

Maybe talk to local police if they have a K9 unit? Just be cool about it and say you really need advice from a handler so it doesn't get out of control and for everyone's safety. I would totally do that. Worst case they will say no In best case scenario some cool dude will take on a little project to help you with him for a couple of hours here and there.:groovy:


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a fear aggressive dog that displays the fear as dog and human aggression. Results from early abuse and I imagine a few crossed wires due to breeding and malnutrition. I have a few medals (bite scars) from his early years as well. At 5 1/2 yrs and after lots of work, he doesn't completely lose his head seeing another dog, BUT he would still prefer they were dead. He can be social with dog smart people at this point, any others, he is muzzled and on leash IF he is even allowed around them. 

It was and still occasionally a rough road with him. He isn't allowed around kids at all, you can look back through previous posts of steps I take when grandson is visiting. If I had kids in the house during this time, I would not have considered keeping Woolf; he would not have been rehomed, he would have been pts. That is NOT a suggestion for you, but stating what MY decision would have been.

You can find good training suggestions online, but the best tool you can have is the human standing in front of you. The online suggestions just will not give you what you need in aggression like this. You need an experienced trainer with a proven track record in aggression cases. Be prepared for ongoing training that will not be cheap. If you are willing to drive, I believe Balif (forum member) is in NC(?)

In the meantime, you need to make arrangements to keep the dog separate from the kids. Large kennel in the backyard - shaded; an area inside for bad weather - storms, heat. If you haven't yet, begin conditioning your dog to a muzzle - basket muzzle specifically.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

New to GSD, not new to "aggressive breed" dogs as I have always has APBT. I am really kind of surprised at the completely different attitude concerning a human aggressive dog between the two communities. Dog aggression we are all used to as it just comes with the territory of owning a fighting breed, but human aggression under NO circumstance is tolerated. Not only is it the most glaring fault in a APBT (they haven't been called "nanny dogs" for nothing!) But those of us fighting to be able to keep our misaligned breeds cannot under any conditions allow unstable dogs to exist. We cannot afford bite incidents or god forbid this dog reproduces and passes on its terrible temperament to a litter. Sad to say but IMO this dog would be best off put down. He will not ever be trusted around children, and is even questionable around adults. Over eight thousand dogs are put down daily due to lack of homes, too many of them more than suitable for family life. Many are even purebreds. Think too if this dog clearly suffers from some kind of mental condition if he feels the need to constantly be on guard, scared and feels forced to bite to cope with it, how happy is he and how well is his quality of life as well? 

I understand you are in a hard place and no matter what you choose it will be difficult. Coming from a breed that no matter what, regardless of how they have been treated or provoked, is never to even exhibit aggression towards a person it is a little startling to see tolerance for it in another powerful, often misunderstood breed. Good luck and please let us know how things turn out.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That is just wrong on a lot of levels.

One of the glaring differences between the GSD community and* a lot* (not all) pittie type owners is we don't call German Shepherds "nanny dogs". 

That whole nanny dog business put forth by many pittie owners is part of their problem. 

Just because APBT and their close relations such as Staffies and however you guys are divvying up the lines now-a-days, have a bad rep and plenty of documented HA, doesn't mean a GSD which has shown aggression should automatically be put down. 

We have no idea what is really going on with this dog over the internet. Maybe it should be put down but that's not a call anyone should make over the internet.

Pam should take proper precautions, seek professional help from a trainer experienced with German Shepherds and working them. I would also see about sedating the dog to have it examined by a vet. It's entirely possible it's a medical issue that is causing this too.





atomic said:


> New to GSD, not new to "aggressive breed" dogs as I have always has APBT. I am really kind of surprised at the completely different attitude concerning a human aggressive dog between the two communities. Dog aggression we are all used to as it just comes with the territory of owning a fighting breed, but human aggression under NO circumstance is tolerated. Not only is it the most glaring fault in a APBT (they haven't been called "nanny dogs" for nothing!) But those of us fighting to be able to keep our misaligned breeds cannot under any conditions allow unstable dogs to exist. We cannot afford bite incidents or god forbid this dog reproduces and passes on its terrible temperament to a litter. Sad to say but IMO *this dog would be best off put down*. He will not ever be trusted around children, and is even questionable around adults. Over eight thousand dogs are put down daily due to lack of homes, too many of them more than suitable for family life. Many are even purebreds. Think too if this dog clearly suffers from some kind of mental condition if he feels the need to constantly be on guard, scared and feels forced to bite to cope with it, how happy is he and how well is his quality of life as well?
> 
> I understand you are in a hard place and no matter what you choose it will be difficult. Coming from a breed that no matter what, regardless of how they have been treated or provoked, is never to even exhibit aggression towards a person it is a little startling to see tolerance for it in another powerful, often misunderstood breed. Good luck and please let us know how things turn out.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

We do not call them "nanny dogs" and certainly not "pitties" just that they were once commonly referred to as nanny dogs back in the day, because of their temperaments concerning people. A purebred APBT or am staff should never, ever be HA and many of these "documented cases" are more often than not a pit bull type as people who think anything bulky with a blocky head is the same kind of dog. This could not be further from the truth.

I'm not telling this person what to do. There could very well (and probably is the case) more to this than we know and wouldn't be able to know unless we were credentialed and in person. I only said what I would do based off what has been said, I personally wouldn't stand for a dog that I felt threatened by and worried for my children's safety. That is all.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

pjam said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> My guy Jax is 1 1/2 yr old. He has been very aggressive around my other other people. I can't even bring him to the vet because he wants to kill everyone in there. The aggression is starting to carry over into the home with the kids and not sure what to do at this point.
> We brought him to a trainer and they said that he is doing it more out of fear than straight aggression.
> ...


I know a awesome trainer he lives in SC. He has 20 years worth of experience.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"It's Dog Bite Prevention Week. Did you know that there was never such thing as a 'Nanny's Dog'? This term was a recent invention created to describe the myriad of vintage photos of children enjoying their family pit bulls. While the intention behind the term was innocent, using it may mislead parents into being careless with their children around their family dog - A recipe for dog bites!"

Bad Rap, group of APBT supporters


No, we are not all used to dog on dog aggression at all. This is a GSD forum and GSDs are NOT a "dog" fighting breed. They are, first and foremost, sheep herders and protectors of the shepherd and the flock. 

German Shepherds are supposed to have HA. It is part of their breed standard, to guard and protect, and they do this by using aggression. If you don't like HA, then GSDs aren't the breed for you as it is expected behavior, it is bred for by reputable breeders, and a GSD without at least a modicum of HA should not be considered an exemplary specimen of the breed. GSDs are a working breed, they could not be dual purpose K9s, home protectors, personal protection dogs, etc., without this valuable inherent trait. HA is an expected and desirable characteristic. Anybody that considers a well bred GSD, one that is bred to the standard, as having a "terrible temperament" perhaps makes a poor choice of breed as an addition to their household.


Nobody knows what is going on with this German Shepherd, could be a health problem, could be mishandling, could be a variety of things or a combination of things. With children involved, this person should get professional help.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

*That one day the subject of GSD's gone rouge could be discussed without the thread closing topics of "Pit's" being brought up ... I see that's not today??*

OP even with the aid of a competent qualified professional the day to day life with this dog will have to change. That would be Crate and Place and no free roaming in the house, step one for "Management." I have the details on those ... more than covered. 

ANd to satisfy the find a trainer theme see here, if none of the suggestion for finding a trainer, thus far work out and if anyone you find on your own says ... Positive Only, thank them for there time and move on, they can't help you at anyrate :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html


At anyrate step one here off to the vet, you do need to find out of this a Medical condition or a Management or Dog with an Attitude problem??? If you can't just simply slap a muzzle on him and off to the vet you go?? Then see here for Muzzle Conditioning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz6f9TYYIi8

Keep the kids safe and don't be screwing around with putting strangers and strange dogs in his face. Don't "know" that you are doing any of that ... just saying.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

"They haven't been called 'nanny dogs' for nothing"....is very different from 'what they were called back in the day'.

Don't project the problems that pit bull owners have, who themselves have used the term pitties that's how I learned it, onto a individual dog/situation.

I honestly don't care what the breed is in this case. If the person had a lab, shih Tzu, mutt I would give the same advice.

Seek professional help. Get to a veterinarian using sedation if needed for health evaluation. Go to a professional trainer with the *right* kind of experience (i.e. bite sports/law enforcement). 

As for the rest, I don't care. 






atomic said:


> New to GSD, not new to "aggressive breed" dogs as I have always has APBT. I am really kind of surprised at the completely different attitude concerning a human aggressive dog between the two communities. Dog aggression we are all used to as it just comes with the territory of owning a fighting breed, but human aggression under NO circumstance is tolerated. Not only is it the most glaring fault in a APBT (*they haven't been called "nanny dogs" for nothing!) *But those of us fighting to be able to keep our misaligned breeds cannot under any conditions allow unstable dogs to exist. We cannot afford bite incidents or god forbid this dog reproduces and passes on its terrible temperament to a litter. Sad to say but IMO this dog would be best off put down. He will not ever be trusted around children, and is even questionable around adults. Over eight thousand dogs are put down daily due to lack of homes, too many of them more than suitable for family life. Many are even purebreds. Think too if this dog clearly suffers from some kind of mental condition if he feels the need to constantly be on guard, scared and feels forced to bite to cope with it, how happy is he and how well is his quality of life as well?
> 
> I understand you are in a hard place and no matter what you choose it will be difficult. Coming from a breed that no matter what, regardless of how they have been treated or provoked, is never to even exhibit aggression towards a person it is a little startling to see tolerance for it in another powerful, often misunderstood breed. Good luck and please let us know how things turn out.





atomic said:


> We do not call them "nanny dogs" and certainly not "pitties" just that they were once commonly referred to as nanny dogs back in the day, because of their temperaments concerning people. A purebred APBT or am staff should never, ever be HA and many of these "documented cases" are more often than not a pit bull type as people who think anything bulky with a blocky head is the same kind of dog. This could not be further from the truth.
> 
> I'm not telling this person what to do. There could very well (and probably is the case) more to this than we know and wouldn't be able to know unless we were credentialed and in person. I only said what I would do based off what has been said, I personally wouldn't stand for a dog that I felt threatened by and worried for my children's safety. That is all.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

For the OP, there are some really great trainers in NC. If you have any questions about a trainer you chose, go ahead and ask on here and we can probably help figure out if the trainer is a good match for your needs.

Unless this behavior is brand new I'd find a trainer to work with first and then get through any vet needs. A vet won't be able to figure out a whole lot if the dog is sedated or in a frenzy, at this point unless you have reason to suspect a medical issue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I kind of agree with Atomic, but I don't think an 18 month old GSD needs to be put down for what the trainer believes is fear-aggression. If it IS fear-aggression, that can be improved upon by providing more consistent leadership and training, managing the environment, and building the dog's confidence through training that includes much success, exercise, fun, and consistency/predictability -- agility training is good for this. 

An 18 month old dog is going to mature and settle down a lot in the next 18 months. 

And, while it isn't fun to be bitten by a GSD, it is rarely fatal or even seriously damaging. One can afford to give a GSD a shot, by improving the handling and working on the issue. 

Furthermore, human aggression is not out of the ball park with what the breed is bred to do. So aggressiveness to humans does not mean there is a serious character flaw that it would mean in say, an English Setter. An ES that started growling and biting people -- look for a brain tumor, because something bad is wrong. The bully breeds are different because they use a lot of aggression in what they are bred for, and the lines can be crossed between one type of aggression and another. A fault in temperament like this, from someone who loves the breed, probably would not be tolerated. But in GSD, it may not be any more of a fault than a dog who is spooked by a plastic bag blowing in the wind. And we do not kill every GSD that gets spooked easily. They can make ok pets. We just need to manage their environments carefully and provide outlets for them to use their minds and bodies within their comfort zones. 

An ES on the other hand, would be culled from a program and made a pet if he loves to run more than hunt with his handler. Neuter him and give him to someone as a pet. Not fatal. Fatal as a hunter, but not something to kill the dog over.

Human aggressive pit bulls are a serious danger to people and to the breed, and I understand people who love them being completely intolerant of members of their breed that have displayed human aggressiveness, and of irresponsible owners who fail their dogs, and the community by allowing human aggressive dogs to be at large.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> "They haven't been called 'nanny dogs' for nothing"....is very different from 'what they were called back in the day'.
> 
> Don't project the problems that pit bull owners have, who themselves have used the term pitties that's how I learned it, onto a individual dog/situation.
> 
> ...


LOL well I particularly noticed that post, because .. yep same here more than 10 years "experiance with Bullie,s APBT/Boxers American Band Dawgs and Boxers!

It did not mean crap with my first WL GSD, the high point ... was H/A aggression ....WTH is this???

Ultimately the people thing with an "intelligent approach" ... this is not a lab?? Proved to be no big deal ... but it was a surprise???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But, if the owners of the dog, the people that raised the dog for 10+ months, are afraid for their children's safety, then that cannot be ignored. I would rather see a dog that need not be put down, put down, than a child that need not be attacked be seriously attacked. The owner of this dog is worried. So keeping the kids safe should be number 1. I think the dog needs out of the situation. I don't know that it needs to be put down. But keeping kids and a dog separated safely and completely is something like keeping an accelerant near open flames. Maybe nothing will happen, but if it does, what do we say then?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I kind of agree with Atomic, but I don't think an 18 month old GSD needs to be put down for what the trainer believes is fear-aggression. If it IS fear-aggression, that can be improved upon by providing more consistent leadership and training, managing the environment, and building the dog's confidence through training that includes much success, exercise, fun, and consistency/predictability -- agility training is good for this.
> 
> An 18 month old dog is going to mature and settle down a lot in the next 18 months.
> 
> ...


LOL ... still letting the "Pitties" creep in here I see.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... still letting the "Pitties" creep in here I see.


Oh, no! Does Castlemaid admin this section??? 

I am really sorry, PJAM if this thread gets locked.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh I have no idea who the mod is myself?? I don't care, merely an observation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought I was just responding to a post that was on topic and made sense to me. Ah well.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think it's interesting there are so many posts, a little bickering, and the OP hasn't told us anything about this dog. 
Get a trainer. PM bailiff, or try finding a good trainer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I thought I was just responding to a post that was on topic and made sense to me. Ah well.


That is what I saw, you responded to somebody else's comment, and they were the one who let the Pit thing creep in.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I didn't see any real bickering. 

I think that yes, some people are going to suggest PTS when people are in fear of children in the home, and some people are going to find that idea insupportable, especially if the dog hasn't bitten yet/

But yeah, we need more info by the OP.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Well, a quick search shows the OP got the pup at 11 weeks old, back in January 2015. Here is a link to the thread with the pup's pedigree. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/518562-just-received-jaxs-pedigree.html

The OP hasn't been back on the board, until now. Yes, it would be very interesting to know some details, over the past year or so. Hopefully he/she will be back to shed some light.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I suppose one could try training first and hopefully it will help.

If they ever want to rule out health issues, at some point, the dog will have to go to a vet somehow.

Sedate, muzzle, all of the above. Something. :shrug:




Muskeg said:


> For the OP, there are some really great trainers in NC. If you have any questions about a trainer you chose, go ahead and ask on here and we can probably help figure out if the trainer is a good match for your needs.
> 
> Unless this behavior is brand new I'd find a trainer to work with first and then get through any vet needs. A vet won't be able to figure out a whole lot if the dog is sedated or in a frenzy, at this point unless you have reason to suspect a medical issue.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think getting Ballif in the loop is a good idea too. Pam left her e.mail. I'll send Baillif a PM (in case that hasn't been done) and direct him to this thread and contact info for Pam.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I think it's interesting there are so many posts, a little bickering, and the OP hasn't told us anything about this dog.
> Get a trainer. PM bailiff, or try finding a good trainer.


 Well yeah that would work also. Is she local to Baillif?? 

I'd certainly recommend that myself, but we know "Baillif the OP does not. So ... there is that.

And ... yet again no input from the OP?? So ...here we are yet again, debating among people who know what they are doing. 

Ok then the OP "assumes" that this dog has "problems" and know one will want him??

Well that's not really true, granted the pool of homes maybe smaller?? But the dog has "currently" no bite history?? Until he is cleared Medically, it's just simply another (most likely, I don't know yet another WL GSD with a people issue??)

No big deal, just because it's "to much dog (perhaps) for the OP?? That does not mean with someone else "this" dog cannot have a good life?? 

Speaking for myself ... I don't care what a dogs history is. If said dog is under my watch ...he won't be meeting people or dogs all "willy nilly" and stuff.  Theree are "actually" others out there like myself.

I finally got to work with my first, I will hurt you bad if you jack this up doggy! Sigh ...of course a "Pity" 

He actually did the Sit and won't move and the standing up thing and the growling in protest at leash pressure thing???

A hard leash correction with that guy?? And ... yep up leash dog there (he had a huge head!) That never happened short session but progress made. Pretty cool. 

At any rate if this dog is medically sound, then it's not a dog "problem" it's a management problem. 

"Out think your dog" ...no big deal for those willing to put in the effort. You just have to know what that looks like and it's not that complicated.

But by and large "this" is why "I" don't recommend WL GSD to most people myself. Not everyone wants to become "Dog Trainers" ... some people only want a dog, nothing wrong with that. 

Most likely a bit of "off topic ramblings" but for the OP ... you're not the first one that got one of these guys and found out they had "more dog than expected??" 

If the dog does not have a screw loose (which is rare but does happen) then it's a management,rules structure and limitations problem ... been there done that got er done.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I sincerely apologize. I do realize that this breed is often used for protection, but I did think that that kind of HA is directive and wouldn't be misplaced onto the dogs family members or even unthreatening strangers. I am used to a breed that goes out of its way to be the least HA so allowing that kind of potentially dangerous quality is alien to me. As I said I do not know the full situation and even if I was in person I do not consider myself a professional (clearly not in GSD) but all I know is if I had a dog that myself, my children, and innocent bystanders were in danger while being around him/her I would do whatever was necessary to keep people safe.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

atomic said:


> if I had a dog that myself, my children, and innocent bystanders were in danger while being around him/her I would do whatever was necessary to keep people safe.


Same here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> But, if the owners of the dog, the people that raised the dog for 10+ months, are afraid for their children's safety, then that cannot be ignored. I would rather see a dog that need not be put down, put down, than a child that need not be attacked be seriously attacked. The owner of this dog is worried. So keeping the kids safe should be number 1. I think the dog needs out of the situation. I don't know that it needs to be put down. But keeping kids and a dog separated safely and completely is something like keeping an accelerant near open flames. Maybe nothing will happen, but if it does, what do we say then?


I have absolutely no disagreement with "this." But saying well because "I" can't solve it ..." that means "no else can or is willing to??" 

Yeah that kinda rubs me raw. As I am want to say "...those that can do those that can't ... PTS."

Been there done that got it done "nine years later ... Rocky is still here!" If the dog is mentally sound then it's a management issue. Pretty much that simple ... in my view but ... I don't have kids.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Without seeing the dog one shouldn't make assumptions. Practice super careful management to be safe and to get a trainer and/or vet asap. Speaking of which I posted one earlier that is very close to Greenville, a relative of mine has trained there. 

Baliff is in NC. I pm'd him with a link to this thread. OP left an email so perhaps doesn't want to discuss this any further on a public forum.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am really only familiar with SL German shepherd Dogs. Mostly GSL. I had a working/pet line cross, and I took care of a WL dog for two years, but I attributed the former's human aggressive (with tons of bite inhibition) to be my own inexperience, and the other was a total sweetheart to everyone. The vast majority of dogs I have had or dealt with were show lines. 

I would put down a dog that attacked a human they lived with. I wouldn't put up with aggression to me or to people that the dog knows. I would also want to see some seriously extenuating circumstances for a dog to show aggressiveness to strangers. And I am including bitches with pups. I let complete strangers come into kennels with the bitch and her puppies. I am letting them in, and I am right there, and the bitch knows that. If she isn't smart enough to understand that I have allowed it, than I am not sure she should be having babies. 

These dogs are trainable. That is one of their biggest assets as a breed. If the dog cannot be trained that it shouldn't be producing. And that includes being tolerant of non-threatening humans, and humans the dog lives with. 

People very familiar with working lines, might have different opinions about the human-aggressiveness. Maybe the dog needs to see the human as physically worthy of respect to throw in with them -- I don't know. For show line dogs, though, aggression toward family members means something is serious broken, and while it could be handling, I guess, it really is not indicative of good character.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> I have absolutely no disagreement with "this." But saying well because "I" can't solve it ..." that means "no else can or is willing to??"
> 
> Yeah that kinda rubs me raw. As I am want to say "...those that can do those that can't ... PTS."
> 
> Been there done that got it done "nine years later ... Rocky is still here!" If the dog is mentally sound then it's a management issue. Pretty much that simple ... in my view but ... I don't have kids.


I guess, I am with Atomic on all the millions of perfectly friendly dogs put down each year just because there isn't enough space for them. Why in the world would anyone want a dog I raised to 18 months old that is out of control/biting people -- though I do not know that this dog has bitten anyone yet -- so it is a different story. Yes, one can recognize being over their heads with a dog and find a suitable home for the dog. Once dogs bite though, I think that there is added liability, and if I give my dog to someone that has bitten a child or an adult, and they give it to someone else, and it bites someone else, I think ALL OF US should be liable. Because we shouldn't lightly give dogs away that have bitten. 

If I tell Joe Shmoe that the dog bit two people, that doesn't mean Joe will tell Tally his dog walker not to let the dog go up to people, it doesn't mean Joe will tell the guy who answered his newspaper ad that the dog has already bitten people, before he sells the dog to him. I don't want to see more bites attributed to our breed. If the dog bites someone without extenuating circumstances. Put the dog down. If the dog's owners are unwilling to keep and work with their great dog that has bitten some kid, why should anyone else want that dog? Put it down, and whoever might have taken it, can get one of those millions of dogs that are being slaughtered just for space. 

If I truly felt that the dog was fouled up by me, and I found someone who was willing and able to work with and keep the dog, that I trusted to do so, I probably would give the dog a chance. Probably. I don't like the ideal of killing dogs, especially if we see the human error in how the dog was raised.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I am really only familiar with SL German shepherd Dogs. Mostly GSL. I had a working/pet line cross, and I took care of a WL dog for two years, but I attributed the former's human aggressive (with tons of bite inhibition) to be my own inexperience, and the other was a total sweetheart to everyone. The vast majority of dogs I have had or dealt with were show lines.
> 
> *I would put down a dog that attacked a human they lived with.* I wouldn't put up with aggression to me or to people that the dog knows. I would also want to see some seriously extenuating circumstances for a dog to show aggressiveness to strangers. And I am including bitches with pups. I let complete strangers come into kennels with the bitch and her puppies. I am letting them in, and I am right there, and the bitch knows that. If she isn't smart enough to understand that I have allowed it, than I am not sure she should be having babies.
> 
> ...


I think that the bolded is always a training, handling, management problem except for extremely rare exception. I don't think the dog should be PTS because of owner failure.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

atomic said:


> I sincerely apologize. I do realize that this breed is often used for protection, but I did think that that kind of HA is directive and wouldn't be misplaced onto the dogs family members or even unthreatening strangers. I am used to a breed that goes out of its way to be the least HA so allowing that kind of potentially dangerous quality is alien to me. As I said I do not know the full situation and even if I was in person I do not consider myself a professional (clearly not in GSD) but all I know is if I had a dog that myself, my children, and innocent bystanders were in danger while being around him/her I would do whatever was necessary to keep people safe.


Yesss ... I call that getting sandbagged!!!

You're not the first. I had more than 10 years experiance with real dogs! American Band Dawgs, APBT/Boxers and Boxers so I my first WL GSD ...just a big furry dog with a pointy face ....yes ...not so much??? 

The first time company came over ... they were met by him with a low growl and a cold hard stare, WTH??

The "place Command was my solution for that and "Who Pets ..." was the other and yep I used a muzzle for awhile, no one was allowed to interact with him. Miles and Miles of one on one walks and I kept people out of his face and once I better understood what I was dealing with and what my dog looked like when he was calmed ... I dropped the muzzle. He understood "Daddy had his back." I showed him how I expected him to behave around people, he got that ... my job was not to be putting "starngers and other dogs" in his face and stuff!  

Train the dog to walk well on a loose leash, I think I posted that link?? Keep the kids clear of him in the house Crate and Place, period end of story. You train the dog to walk properly on a loose leash first! And then use a freaking muzzle and let the kids walk the dog!

No free roaming in the home Crate or Place period, in the home!!


As i had stated ...even if you are working with a trainer ... those things should be done! 

And even if you are working with "Baillif," these things should be done:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

If you train your dog in "Place" and do "Sit on the Dog" your dog won't need to be with him so long. Pretty sure he'd be doing those in anycase as he is where I learned of them from.

And "Place" is what I did to help with my company/family coming over deal.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yesss ... I call that getting sandbagged!!!
> 
> You're not the first. I had more than 10 years experiance with real dogs! American Band Dawgs, APBT/Boxers and Boxers so I my first WL GSD ...just a big furry dog with a pointy face ....yes ...not so much???
> 
> ...


How long should one take this to mean that the dog will be confined to one spot per day?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I guess, I am with Atomic on all the millions of perfectly friendly dogs put down each year just because there isn't enough space for them. Why in the world would anyone want a dog I raised to 18 months old that is out of control/biting people -- though I do not know that this dog has bitten anyone yet -- so it is a different story. Yes, one can recognize being over their heads with a dog and find a suitable home for the dog. Once dogs bite though, I think that there is added liability, and if I give my dog to someone that has bitten a child or an adult, and they give it to someone else, and it bites someone else, I think ALL OF US should be liable. Because we shouldn't lightly give dogs away that have bitten.
> 
> If I tell Joe Shmoe that the dog bit two people, that doesn't mean Joe will tell Tally his dog walker not to let the dog go up to people, it doesn't mean Joe will tell the guy who answered his newspaper ad that the dog has already bitten people, before he sells the dog to him. I don't want to see more bites attributed to our breed. If the dog bites someone without extenuating circumstances. Put the dog down. If the dog's owners are unwilling to keep and work with their great dog that has bitten some kid, why should anyone else want that dog? Put it down, and whoever might have taken it, can get one of those millions of dogs that are being slaughtered just for space.
> 
> If I truly felt that the dog was fouled up by me, and I found someone who was willing and able to work with and keep the dog, that I trusted to do so, I probably would give the dog a chance. Probably. I don't like the ideal of killing dogs, especially if we see the human error in how the dog was raised.


Yes but near as I know "this" dog has not bitten anyone???

"Assuming" he will ... is unfair and yes thousands of dogs that don't have problems are "PTS" each year! Life's not fair. 

But "this" dog is lucky, yeah apparently he has an attitude but he has not bitten, passing him on to someone more willing /capable is not "criminal??" 

Dog's gotten problems, no doubt and the I have kids, to much dog for me, thing does not help but that does not mean that there is no one that wants him??

Being "surprised" is not a crime, the OP got more dog than expected?? Yeah ...crap happens, so they need to step up up there game or pass the dog on. Again, "assuming the dog's not mental??

No answer thus far on the muzzle thing that's step one in my view.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How long should one take this to mean that the dog will be confined to one spot per day?


LOL ...well at least this time your not "kicking newbies" and stuff. 

So yeah I got this! For "me" I don't care what the dog does during the day. My dogs were always free to come and go as they please we always left the back door open. 

But for this dog... when folks come home ... this dog should be on "lock Down" Crate or Place (once trained period end of story.) 

Eyes on ... you can't control him if you don't know where he is. 

The dog should be trained to walk properly on a leash "owners job" and use a muzzle and let the kids walk the dog once the dog knows how to walk properly on leash.

Once the dog knows to "respect" everyone in the household and yep "PLace and Sit on the Dog" would be a part of that, then the muzzle can be dropped. As I've said ... I don't have kids ... just stuff I know. 

Chip


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ...well at least this time your not "kicking newbies" and stuff.
> 
> So yeah I got this! For "me" I don't care what the dog does during the day. My dogs were always free to come and go as they please we always left the back door open.
> 
> ...


What if, among other things, this dog is under exercised and that is part of the problem? 

Did the owner say that the dog could not/ would not walk well on a leash? Maybe I missed that? Just skimming along. 

How do you think the owners should go about teaching the dog to respect everyone in the household?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What if, among other things, this dog is under exercised and that is part of the problem?
> 
> Did the owner say that the dog could not/ would not walk well on a leash? Maybe I missed that? Just skimming along.
> 
> How do you think the owners should go about teaching the dog to respect everyone in the household?


 I don't have kids, so yes ... that is a break for me and others in a similar position!

But for me ... since you asked. 

Step One here ... forget the past ... "I just got a rescue" first link:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Train "Place" use a muzzle and a drag leash, owner starts the process gets it done "two hour Place" " at the minimum, Dog knows understand and obeys the command, use a muzzle and have the kids command the Dog to "Place." 

Use a muzzle train the dog to walk properly on a loose leash (owner) once the dog understands that ... use a muzzle and have the kids "walk the dog."

No bed, no furniture privileges in the evening for this dog. Crate or Place Period! No touch no talk no eye contact ... feed the dog in the Crate, after a bit the kids should be able to order the dog to "kennel Up" ... it's in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

I may have posted it already but whatever. 

So yeah ... not easy but not unreasonable???


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I don't have kids, so yes ... that is a break for me and others in a similar position!
> 
> But for me ... since you asked.
> 
> ...


I am not sure I am seeing where you are addressing the possibility of a lack of exercise being a contributing factor? 

Not sure why you are advising teaching the dog to walk loose leash when I don't see this being listed as a problem. Maybe he already does?

Why are you suggesting the OP place a muzzle on the dog for training when OP hasn't stated there has been any aggression toward him?

I am not sure if you are suggesting that deprivation is going to teach the dog respect for everybody in the family?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I guess, I am with Atomic on all the millions of perfectly friendly dogs put down each year just because there isn't enough space for them. Why in the world would anyone want a dog I raised to 18 months old that is out of control/biting people -- though I do not know that this dog has bitten anyone yet -- so it is a different story. Yes, one can recognize being over their heads with a dog and find a suitable home for the dog. Once dogs bite though, I think that there is added liability, and if I give my dog to someone that has bitten a child or an adult, and they give it to someone else, and it bites someone else, I think ALL OF US should be liable. Because we shouldn't lightly give dogs away that have bitten.
> 
> If I tell Joe Shmoe that the dog bit two people, that doesn't mean Joe will tell Tally his dog walker not to let the dog go up to people, it doesn't mean Joe will tell the guy who answered his newspaper ad that the dog has already bitten people, before he sells the dog to him. I don't want to see more bites attributed to our breed. If the dog bites someone without extenuating circumstances. Put the dog down. If the dog's owners are unwilling to keep and work with their great dog that has bitten some kid, why should anyone else want that dog? Put it down, and whoever might have taken it, can get one of those millions of dogs that are being slaughtered just for space.
> 
> If I truly felt that the dog was fouled up by me, and I found someone who was willing and able to work with and keep the dog, that I trusted to do so, I probably would give the dog a chance. Probably. I don't like the ideal of killing dogs, especially if we see the human error in how the dog was raised.


Oh by and large people do things that make no sense all the time! "This " dog has not bitten anyone so far?? 

He simply has "issues" outside the range of experiance/expectations of the current owner. I had one and one of my solutions was calling the rescue ( I was a foster home) and telling them ... yeah "Rocky" is not working out here. Send him back where he came from and get a "Boxer!" That is not how "I "work but that's me. On the other, deciding that because "I" can't solve a problem ... it means "no one can??" Is hardly fair??

Sometimes all people need is a plan, that's what I try and provide.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not sure I am seeing where you are addressing the possibility of a lack of exercise being a contributing factor?
> 
> Not sure why you are advising teaching the dog to walk loose leash when I don't see this being listed as a problem. Maybe he already does?
> 
> ...


The muzzle thing ... dogs with kids .. I advocate as close to a "zero" bite risk on kids as possible. The dog should not really give a crap about the muzzle but it helps the owners felt better and it is a "safety margin" better safe than sorry,  


I have no idea if this dog walks well on a loose leash?? Not stated but I am saying ... if he does, walk well on a loose leash, use a muzzle and let the kids... walk the dog help build a bond of trust with the little ones.

The exercise think?? I have no idea?? I don't typically ask?? I assume it as a given ... I could be wrong ...I don't know?? In anycase ...not my thing. Others are free to bring that up. 

Deparavition?? I suppose?? I don't know, but yet again, I don't care, it's what I did I suppose?? Worked out fine for me, my dog came to my aide unbid, when I was flat on my back when I slipped on ice while defending him from charging dogs. So ... it would appear to me that he did not hold "Daddy's"lack of "vocalization" against me?? 

And we had spent many miles and weeks walking together in silence ... looking for people for him to ignore ... worked out fine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not sure I am seeing where you are addressing the possibility of a lack of exercise being a contributing factor?
> 
> Not sure why you are advising teaching the dog to walk loose leash when I don't see this being listed as a problem. Maybe he already does?
> 
> ...


The muzzle thing ... dogs with kids .. I advocate as close to a "zero" bite risk on kids as possible. The dog should not really give a crap about the muzzle in anycase and it helps the owners fell better and it is a "safety margin" better safe than sorry,  


I have no idea if this dog walks well on a loose leash?? Not stated but I am saying ... if he does, walk well on a loose leash, use a muzzle and let the kids... walk the dog help build a bond of trust with the little ones.

The exercise think?? I have no idea?? I don't typically ask?? I assume it as a given ... I could be wrong ...I don't know?? In anycase ...not my thing. Others are free to bring that up. 

Deparavition?? I suppose?? I don't know, but yet again, I don't care, it's what I did I suppose?? Worked out fine for me, my dog came to my aide unbid, when I was flat on my back when I slipped on ice while defending him from charging dogs. So ... it would appear to me that he did not hold "Daddy's"lack of "vocalization" against me?? 

And we had spent many miles and weeks walking together in silence ... looking for people for him to ignore ... worked out fine. 

One need not "Yank and Crank" on a dog to make a point. Homie school of dog training. And as I am want to say ....










And since my "tone" is apparently ... subject to misinterpretation by some??? Rocky is a "Wobble" doggy and that did not affect his "attitude" but it did limit my options, yank and cranks was not an option. So yeah maybe my version of "Hard Core PO" here?? Perhaps... in any case it worked out fine. Just saying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that "deprivation" actually does improve some canine-human relationships. A wild dog is totally free. He pees where he wants, he moves over the ground as he sees fit. He eats what he finds. A dog that is domestic has boundaries. When we let dogs have too much freedom, it is harder for dogs to feel totally comfortable, harder for us to let the dog know what is ok and what is not ok. The dog is running wild, has no boundaries. By limiting access to things, we provide the dog with a safe place to rest or sleep, and then when he is out of that place, we are engaged with him, rather than just letting him amuse himself. 

It can improve a relationship. The dog can chase butterflies, only if YOU let him go chase butterflies. When YOU are ready for that game to end, he understands that you have the thumbs. You are better than chopped liver. When you are with him he can do A, B, C, D with you. When he is not with you, he is in his kennel or crate. 

When puppies are small, people house train them by making their area small enough that they do not eliminate in that space. If you let the pup have the run of the house, he runs about pooping and peeing everywhere, because he sees no need not to. We do not keep him in his crate until he is reliably pottying outside, but we supervise every move. And there is nothing wrong with that. The puppy learns and earns more freedom. With more freedom, we have to help him make good choices about what to chew on, etc. We may give him whatever room we are in, or a couple of rooms, not the whole house. 

It helps us stay aware of the pup, and the pup is staying close to us. The pup learns that we will tell him what he can do and what he cannot do, and the puppy becomes secure and confident because we restricted access to everything. 

Right now this pup is neither secure, nor confident. Restricting access to everything, and keeping him close and giving him instant feedback, can actually help. The dog needs to learn to look to the owner for what he wants, what he can do. Not a bad idea.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think that "deprivation" actually does improve some canine-human relationships. A wild dog is totally free. He pees where he wants, he moves over the ground as he sees fit. He eats what he finds. A dog that is domestic has boundaries. When we let dogs have too much freedom, it is harder for dogs to feel totally comfortable, harder for us to let the dog know what is ok and what is not ok. The dog is running wild, has no boundaries. By limiting access to things, we provide the dog with a safe place to rest or sleep, and then when he is out of that place, we are engaged with him, rather than just letting him amuse himself.
> 
> It can improve a relationship. The dog can chase butterflies, only if YOU let him go chase butterflies. When YOU are ready for that game to end, he understands that you have the thumbs. You are better than chopped liver. When you are with him he can do A, B, C, D with you. When he is not with you, he is in his kennel or crate.
> 
> ...


Uh ... I'm stunned?? Nothing to add or disagree with.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Uh ... I'm stunned?? Nothing to add or disagree with.


Maybe I should post more often when I am listening to the Indians trying to lose the game. Might help.

:grin2:


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> Maybe I should post more often when I am listening to the Indians trying to lose the game. Might help.
> 
> :grin2:


You're wasting your time. NHL playoffs are on. 

Topics like this are why there should be a shoutbox on this forum.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> You're wasting your time. NHL playoffs are on.
> 
> Topics like this are why there should be a shoutbox on this forum.


Indians squeezed a win. You would think it was late September or Ocotber.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The muzzle thing ... dogs with kids .. I advocate as close to a "zero" bite risk on kids as possible. The dog should not really give a crap about the muzzle in anycase and it helps the owners fell better and it is a "safety margin" better safe than sorry,
> 
> 
> I have no idea if this dog walks well on a loose leash?? Not stated but I am saying ... if he does, walk well on a loose leash, use a muzzle and let the kids... walk the dog help build a bond of trust with the little ones.
> ...


Homey don't have a choice. :grin2:

Just asking about the muzzle with the owner as the owner said nothing about the dog exhibiting aggression toward him. I still don't see the need when the owner is training it, might even serve as an unnecessary distraction. Around the kids, now that is a different story.

I asked about the loose leash walking because I did not see where OP addressed that issue and was curious what it has to do with this dog's aggression problem. I don't think if this dog is exhibiting unpredictable aggression with outside people that it is a good idea to put his leash in the hands of a child regardless of whether trained to walk loose leash and muzzled or not. Too much can go wrong.

How can you advise lock down when a lack of exercise could be the core problem? 

Did not mean deprivation strictly in the sense of lack of verbal communication, but any communication touch, talk, eye contact... and every single move they make. There is a huge difference between structure and deprivation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I think that "deprivation" actually does improve some canine-human relationships. A wild dog is totally free. He pees where he wants, he moves over the ground as he sees fit. He eats what he finds. A dog that is domestic has boundaries. When we let dogs have too much freedom, it is harder for dogs to feel totally comfortable, harder for us to let the dog know what is ok and what is not ok. The dog is running wild, has no boundaries. By limiting access to things, we provide the dog with a safe place to rest or sleep, and then when he is out of that place, we are engaged with him, rather than just letting him amuse himself.
> 
> It can improve a relationship. The dog can chase butterflies, only if YOU let him go chase butterflies. When YOU are ready for that game to end, he understands that you have the thumbs. You are better than chopped liver. When you are with him he can do A, B, C, D with you. When he is not with you, he is in his kennel or crate.
> 
> ...


Deprivation vs structure are two different things. Chip is talking no eye contact, no verbal contact, constantly crated or in its place, next to no interaction except for training. Some people do this to give their dogs an extra edge in training, that won't help here. This won't build a bond, but may do a bond some damage. This is not a puppy but an 18 month old teenage dog that is starting to mature that needs structure and training. Isolation serves no valuable purpose to any puppy or dog except in those rare circumstances where it is needed as an extreme interim safety measure.

And seriously, if a person feels the need to control a dog right down to when it breaks wind, for how long, and in what room of the house, maybe they just shouldn't own a dog. Pet rocks thrive under extreme control, dogs, not so much.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Maybe I should post more often when I am listening to the Indians trying to lose the game. Might help.
> 
> :grin2:


LOL nope you do just fine.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Deprivation vs structure are two different things. Chip is talking no eye contact, no verbal contact, constantly crated or in its place, next to no interaction except for training. Some people do this to give their dogs an extra edge in training, that won't help here. This won't build a bond, but may do a bond some damage. This is not a puppy but an 18 month old teenage dog that is starting to mature that needs structure and training. Isolation serves no valuable purpose to any puppy or dog except in those rare circumstances where it is needed as an extreme interim safety measure.
> 
> And seriously, if a person feels the need to control a dog right down to when it breaks wind, for how long, and in what room of the house, maybe they just shouldn't own a dog. Pet rocks thrive under extreme control, dogs, not so much.


Well "Rocky" survived the "isolation three feet" from my feet ... right where he is now. 

Hmm ... I just tested "Rocky" I said "Rocky" he turned and looked at me??? I said .."Who's a good boy ...who's a good boy?? " Got nothing ... clearly he's not a Boxer ... whatever we're still good.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well "Rocky" survived the "isolation three feet" from my feet ... right where he is now.
> 
> Hmm ... I just tested "Rocky" I said "Rocky" he turned and looked at me??? I said .."Who's a good boy ...who's a good boy?? " Got nothing ... clearly he's not a Boxer ... whatever we're still good.



As always! :smile2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Deprivation vs structure are two different things. Chip is talking no eye contact, no verbal contact, constantly crated or in its place, next to no interaction except for training. Some people do this to give their dogs an extra edge in training, that won't help here. This won't build a bond, but may do a bond some damage. This is not a puppy but an 18 month old teenage dog that is starting to mature that needs structure and training. Isolation serves no valuable purpose to any puppy or dog except in those rare circumstances where it is needed as an extreme interim safety measure.
> 
> And seriously, if a person feels the need to control a dog right down to when it breaks wind, for how long, and in what room of the house, maybe they just shouldn't own a dog. Pet rocks thrive under extreme control, dogs, not so much.


My dogs are generally kenneled. Of course the kennels are large and they are next to or in many cases in with other dogs all the time. The bond is excellent. But I agree that the dogs should not be brought out of a crate only for training. I think some need to be crated when you cannot guide them, pay attention to them, be aware of what they are doing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Homey don't have a choice. :grin2:
> 
> Just asking about the muzzle with the owner as the owner said nothing about the dog exhibiting aggression toward him. I still don't see the need when the owner is training it, might even serve as an unnecessary distraction. Around the kids, now that is a different story.
> 
> ...


OP made no mention of the walk, that was me. 


Just saying the dog needs to walk well on a leash for us "Pet People" I found a structured walk to be "extremely important" a dog does not need an owner to "exercise" he does need an owner to "walk." Others of course are free to disagree as to value of walking there dogs. 


ANd the kid and walks thing ... people have to exercise some discretion?? Kids walking the dog, does not mean ... here's the leash and a muzzle ... take care of it?? 

Parental supervision, I assume folks still do that ... I don't have kids?? But I would "assume" those that do would keep as close an eye on there kids as I did "Struddell (Boxer)???" 

And the exercise thing ... no doubt it's important but not my thing, you can stay on point with that one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> OP made no mention of the walk, that was me.
> 
> 
> Just saying the dog needs to walk well on a leash for us "Pet People" I found a structured walk to be "extremely important" a dog does not need an owner to "exercise" he does need an owner to "walk." Others of course are free to disagree as to value of walking there dogs.
> ...


Just trying to get on the same page as you, can't do it if I don't ask questions about what I don't understand. :smile2::smile2::smile2::smile2::smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just trying to get on the same page as you, can't do it if I don't ask questions about what I don't understand. :smile2::smile2::smile2::smile2::smile2:


Well ... if you don't understand ... then I was not clear?? 

No harm at all in "clarification!" Just don't be kicking around newbies and stuff with questions like "these." A lesson I remember from Selzer! 

Despite my "apparent still" tone of:









I'm not that guy.
...
I just like to :










For the dog ...










It's all good.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

OP hasn't returned in 2 days. I wouldn't mind evaluating the dog but I'm in NY training Crank for the next week and a half or so.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> OP hasn't returned in 2 days. I wouldn't mind evaluating the dog but I'm in NY training Crank for the next week and a half or so.


Well ...maybe they are working on Crate and Place and No Free Roaming in The house???


----------



## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Despite my "apparent still" tone of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, yea...you're not from the moon. You and your primitive third dimension.
If you were, you'd get your money from the government...and spend it on beer...Mexican beer...that's the cheapest of all beer.





(No body has any idea what I'm talking about)


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> OP hasn't returned in 2 days. I wouldn't mind evaluating the dog but I'm in NY training Crank for the next week and a half or so.


Where in NY? Upstate or fake NY? Go get a garbage plate in Rochester!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Saito said:


> Well, yea...you're not from the moon. You and your primitive third dimension.
> If you were, you'd get your money from the government...and spend it on beer...Mexican beer...that's the cheapest of all beer.
> 
> 
> ...


Who wrote "The Moon Rules #1" on my car with a key?!

(I know what you're talking about  )


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