# Lord vom Gleisdreieck in a pedigree



## Wilhoit

What traits would you expect Lord vom Gleisdreieck to bring to his descendents? What might you also want to include in a breeding in which one of the prospective mates had him in his/her pedigree, i.e. what other lines would best balance his traits? When I say traits, I mean those that can (and were) tested in something like schutzhund, maybe herding, etc. In other words, the traits were measured and recorded. Anything anecdotal is also interesting.

I am asking because I don't know anything about pedigrees and bloodlines and would like to start learning. I also don't know anything about Lord vom Gleisdreick, except that he turns up in the pedigrees of dogs I've been admiring.


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## gagsd

Reverse mask, handler sensitive, good/great tracking......

I have heard that Lord mixes well with Fero.


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## Uniballer

My closest experience with Lord was as the helper for a Lord grandson (Fiasco von Gebrueder Grimm x Cora vom Maerchenwald). This was a good looking, powerful dog with amazing grips and a pretty nice temperament overall. He stayed with me while his owner was out of town several times, and was reasonably social. He made overall V scores in SchH multiple times (pretty sure all phases, too). He could load up and become handler aggressive if corrected too much, or unfairly.


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## cliffson1

Lord is a very tricky dog to catergorize and requires depth of knowledge of bloodlines to maximize his value. Lord has been in the pedigree of some of the great sport dogs of past 20 years. Lord has been in the pedigree of some of the great police dogs of past 20 years. Lord has been in pedigree of some of the great pet dogs of past twenty years. It all depends on the combinations and recombinations that arise out of Lord in a pedigree. Lord was known to insert good hunt drive in his progeny, he was a great source of working hips, definitely threw the reverse mask and sometimes fading pigment. I've seen Lord progeny with great grips and chewy grips. I have seen Lord progeny with great nerve and with nerviness. I have seen Lord progeny with strong active and passive aggression and Lord progeny that didn't possess either. I have seen dogs linebred on Lord,(most of whom I didn't care for) and I have seen some nice dogs out of linebred Lord. 
One of the reasons for this, in my opinion, is Lord goes back through Jeff on sire side to grandsire Ingo v Rudigen. Ingo along with Bernd v Lierberg, are two of the most important dogs in the history of the breed in terms of producing the type of dogs that reflect what the breed was created for.
You will find both of these dogs im many many workinglines, Czech lines, and further back in many showlines in Europe. (Ingo more so in the DDR show dogs), Bernd in both DDR and German). 
So to really get a feel for Lord's impact you really have to know the genetic history of the other dogs in the pedigree and how strong they are in areas that Lord is either weak or strong. Like, more times than not if you see a good working dog with a fading mask, good chance that Lord is in pedigree somewhere. He was that dominant in producing that mask even when bred to all Black dogs.(That's not to say that Black corrects a fading mask but Black dogs usually have a strong base pigment strength in term of pigment and mask)
I could go on about Lord traits forever, but suffice it to say he was a great overall dog especially when used to HELP achieve a type of working dog. I also have owned and bred Lord progeny to see some of this firsthand.


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## cliffson1

Uniballer,
Years ago I owned a son of the brother of Fiasko v Gerbruder -Grim. I raised and trained the dog until he was two years old then he went to the New York State Police where he passed the academy and went on the streets. Very very nice dog.


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## boeselager

Very well said Cliffson1!!!!


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## Samba

Lord would be pretty far back in a pedigree these days, wouldn't he? How do we measure the influence of the dogs as they get further back?


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## Chris Wild

Cliff really hit the nail on the head in terms of "it depends".

We have a Lord granddaughter with bad hips (moderate HD), a host of mild to moderate nerve issues, mediocre drive, very soft and handler sensitive but at the same time quite independent and not at all biddable, possessing absolutely none of the tracking talent or hunt drive typically seen in these lines. What aggression she has is completely fear based, and while she's quick to alert bark beyond that her coping mechanism for any form of pressure or threat is to run and hide under the bed. Great with other animals and very social with people in general, but iffy around children (they make her uncomfortable) and dog aggressive. She has a totally wonderful, sweet, in many ways comical personality in general and is a fantastic pet. But certainly not a working dog in health or temperament, and of course was never used for breeding. I've seen many, many other dogs out of her sire (a Lord son) with various degrees of the same issues except the tracking. Overall the others I have seen are excellent trackers. And like her, by and large wonderful general personalities making them good companions but in many cases no more than that.

Our foundation bitch was a granddaughter of Fiasko, so a Lord great-granddaughter. Strong, but certainly not extreme drives. Very balanced prey and defense, and would show good aggression if given a good reason to. Phenomenal tracking and hunt drive. Excellent health and hips. Very biddable, compliant, handler focused nature. A bit on the softer, handler sensitive side, but extremely resilient and totally environmentally sound. Nothing phased her. Wonderful with people, kids, other dogs, cats. She produced extremely well, with many excellent working dogs (and excellent pets) amongst her offspring, and now grand offspring.

2 dogs going back on Lord fairly close in the pedigree, yet 2 very different dogs with very different things to offer. It most certainly came down to what that Lord was mixed with in their pedigrees.


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## Wilhoit

Wow, thanks for sharing your knowledge so generously--gave my printer a workout!

Now, I've got more questions (sorry!):
1.) Anyone have ideas as to why Lord might "mix well" with Fero? Is this Fero v Zueterner Himmelreich?

2.) Hopefully someone can answer Samba's question as to how we can "measure the influence of the dogs as they get further back?" 

3.) What, in your opinions, are some of the good combinations with Lord?

4.) What combinations, in your experiences, might it be wise to avoid?

Chris, your foundation bitch sounds close to ideal for my tastes. Will go to your website to answer some of my questions (#3 & 4). I also really admire the fact that you kept and loved the less desirable Lord descendent!

Once again, thank you all!


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## Liesje

I have a female that is a great-granddaughter of Lord on the dam's side and Fero on the sire's side. Not sure if that is applicable to your research.


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## Uniballer

cliffson1 said:


> Years ago I owned a son of the brother of Fiasko v Gerbruder -Grim. I raised and trained the dog until he was two years old then he went to the New York State Police where he passed the academy and went on the streets. Very very nice dog.


I can believe that.

On the issue of the Lord - Fero combination look at the pedigree links for the parents of the Lord grandson I was talking about. The dam was a Troll daughter (i.e. Fero granddaughter).

My current dog is linebred (5-5) Lord, but I can't really attribute anything specific to Lord in his makeup. At that point I think he is just good blood in the mix.


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## Wilhoit

I did, Uniballer! Figured I'd jumped the gun and posted to soon, so got my 6 generation pedigrees for both Cora, the dam, and Chila, the granddam. Noted Fero, got excited, then noted a lot of other names, and got stumped by my lack of knowledge!

Cliff, I carefully noted what you said about Ingo and Bernd (and have put their pedigrees aside for future reference). If you have any time to spare, I'd love to hear a bit more about your experiences with positive/negative combinations and recombinations of Lord in a bloodline. I always look for your posts, because they are so informative, but will quite understand if you do not have time to comment further here.

Liesje, I would love to hear what she might be like, and if you think that Lord brought anything specific to her makeup (working abilities, mental and physical). What might Fero have added to it?

I'm running out of paper, so will be getting to Chris's dogs a little later!

Thanks again!


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## Emoore

Chris and Cliff should co-write a book. They'd sell a million copies on this forum.


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## phgsd

I also have a Lord great-granddaughter...a link to her pedigree is in my signature (Kessy).

She's a great tracker, and learns very quickly. She loves to please, and can be a little sensitive, but she can take heavy compulsion and will bounce right back. She has very high drive and is high energy. She is training for her HGH (sheep herding) title, and is doing really nicely - she would work all day long if I let her, she lives to work.
She is social with people and loves kids. She does have aggression but I don't see it very often, usually she is just a goofy happy dog.
Her nerves are solid, nothing phases her and she is very confident in all situations. 

I have seen a number of offspring from Brix von der Kalenborner Höhe (a Lord grandson) and they were nice working dogs, however they were definitely very serious, not social to strangers, and could be handler aggressive especially if corrected unfairly. I am told Brix was the same way although I never got to meet him in person.


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## cliffson1

Another important aspect of Lord in a pedigree is where does he appear?? Is he coming through the damside or the sire side. I personally like to see him come from the dam side as opposed to thru sire. Gary Hanrahan's dog Pirol had Lord coming through the dam side if I'm not mistaken. One of the things that has to be considered in a dog is whether the strengths of the dog are natural traits or are they enhanced traits. Many of Lord's strengths came from natural traits like tracking, hunt drive, aloofness, etc. These things are very seldom enhanced for breeding by most GS breeders but some dogs seem to throw them more than others. Then you have other traits that have been enhanced by specialized breeding over the years. Traits like grips, prey drive, shyness, aggression, size, angulation, etc have been emphasized by breeders to the point that some dogs have a genetic overabundance. This can be the result of purposeful breeding; like the over the top prey drive of some sport dogs, or an unintended consequence; such as shyness/weak nerves that come from extensive line/inbreeding for other physical traits. Nonetheless, Lord did not have much enhanced traits, so that breeders that bred to him looking to improve prey drive, hardness, grips, were often disappointed. He was much better to come in from a perspective of complimenting a type that was already developed by bringing good recessive traits to the mix. This is why I think that many people have such controversial views of Lord. Again, this is just conjecture on my part, but I have analyzed this dog in and out over the years. 
More to come about Lord but want to review some pedigrees as I am talking off the top of my head at this point.


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## Wilhoit

Emoore said:


> Chris and Cliff should co-write a book. They'd sell a million copies on this forum.


I'd be in line to get anything the two of them wrote!

Phgsd, Thank you for describing Kessy and for the link to her pedigree. I was able to note that Fero was in there, once on the sire's side and once on the dam's. The notes about Kessy made me click on one of the female's in that "extraordinarily strong line of females" and ... there was Bernd vom Lierberg in, I think, the 8th generation. So, I see both Ingo (through Lord) and Bernd, the two dogs I learned from Cliff that have produced the finest type of GSDs. Then, I notice that your Kessy has two HGH dogs (the dam and granddam of Uran vom Kirschental in her pedigree and that they appear three times on both the dam's and sire's sides. This is exciting, since she is obviously gifted at herding! 

Big question for Cliff (and anyone else): If Lord (and, presumably, other DDR dogs) do not have much in the way of "enhanced traits," does this mean that the balance of their drives is closer to the balance found in the original herding dogs that founded the breed? Would that mean that there is a greater likelihood that herding abilities have survived in the DDR dogs. If so, then that might be another reason that Kessy is a natural for herding. What do you all think!!??


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Another important aspect of Lord in a pedigree is where does he appear?? Is he coming through the damside or the sire side.* I personally like to see him come from the dam side* as opposed to thru sire.


Why is that?


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## phgsd

I think herding instincts are present in a lot of GSD's today. I can't pinpoint exactly where Kessy's came from, but my first GSD (maybe 9 years ago) was from completely different lines (primarily west german workinglines), and I did some HGH herding with her as well. Comparing the two in training - my first GSD had much more straight "herding" drive and boundary insinct...Kessy has it but also has very high prey drive so it took time to get her to think and maintain the boundary vs. just wanting to chase sheep around.
Now Kessy still has the right instincts or she would never learn to maintain the border or move the flock, and she has a great feel for working the sheep which a lot of dogs never develop. But she is a challenge to work! Our trainer says that she is the type of dog who should work for hours a day, seven days a week, and he is 100% right. When she works for an hour (or sometimes two) a week, she's so amped up that it can be hard to keep her under control until she settles down. But once she does it's beautiful to watch.

Anyway - with my first GSD...she got the idea very quickly and I don't remember any struggle getting her to maintain the border, but she was super soft and at a slight correction she'd just quit working and getting her going again was difficult if not impossible. So she didn't make it very far. But the right instincts were there, and if she was a stronger dog I think she would have done well.

So I think a lot of GSD's (especially those from working lines IMO) can have potential to make herding dogs, and I can't pinpoint Lord as the source but can't rule him out either


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## cliffson1

Wilhoit,
I think you're on to something. Yes, I think the DDR dogs are probably closest to the "type" of GS that was multi purposed and capable of herding and and utility work. Most DDR lines do have strong herding backgrounds 10 to 15 generations ago.(Some much closer up). But in the natural state traits such as herding are inherently there. The enhanced dogs of today often have stronger ehanced traits than natural, so its not that the natural traits aren't there, its just that they are overrun by the ehanced creation. Like take some sport dogs who have drives(prey) so enhanced that they have more drive than brains....well certain aspects of herding they have a hard time with because it requires the dog to settle and also not react but figure out first. Take other dogs that have been bred for certain physical traits(angulation, color, extreme gait) and they have less than stellar nerve or courage. They may do alright herding three little sheep that are dog broke to get a Herding Started title, but what happens if they really had to work the flock for real and the big ewe or hard ram challenges them and charges to do damage....take a guess, or suppose a thunder storm occurrs out in the pasture.....????no table or bed or crate to go to!!
My point is natural traits should not be overrun by enhanced trait for some specialty purpose. Many of the DDRhave the good natural traits but the specialist of today want more in the field they are from.
WhiteGS,
The position of the dog has relevance in reading a pedigree if you know the dogs and there traits and what they passed. Its very complex and goes into the male possessing xy chromsone and female xx chromosone. So depending on where the traits emanated from and whether or not they can be passed, (small example...if my male has his strong nerve coming predominantly through his Y chromosone....then he can't pass that trait to the females in the litter...this is a simple example but when you know the dogs and what they possess and WHERE they got it from you can figure out a lot of what will go where), then you sometimes want to see certain dogs in certain positions for certain things to continue. 
There's a lot to it.


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## vomlittlehaus

Now I am very interested in this thread. Lord shows up 3 times in this pedigree:
Hena-C's Hey Ladies - German shepherd dog

And having Fero in my females pedigree, having bred to the above male:
German Shepherd Yoko von der Burg Austerlitz pedigree information 

I am really excited to see what they will be producing. Just this morning I was going over the bloodlines and getting some more research done. Taking a break from it and came here to find this thread.


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## Wilhoit

I looked at the pedigrees for Chris’s two dogs. Her foundation bitch has Lord on the dam’s side, which Cliff feels is preferable to having Lord come from the sire’s side. The pet dog, though, has Lord on the father’s side. I also found it interesting that Chris’s foundation bitch is a granddaughter of Fiasko von Gebruder Grimm, the same dog who was closely related to dogs that both Cliff and Uniballer liked. Chris, your foundation bitch is one lovely, lovely dog—what a wonderful temperament and abilities! Your frankness about your dogs is such a help to people like me.

One of the main things these posts have made me realize, though, is that dog breeding is so very complex. I now feel that rule #1 for me will be to find a breeder with lengthy, in depth experience, and who shares his/her knowledge in a friendly, cooperative way with other breeders. It would be impossible to breed really good GSDs, IMO, in a competitive, go it alone spirit—just too complicated! Starting to look at pedigrees makes me feel like I’m in a darkened treasure house, with a few pinpricks of light illuminating a tiny bit of detail—Ingo and Bernd, Lord on the mother’s side, Fiasko, natural and enhanced traits, etc.—all those things I'm starting to learn from you all. Thank you again!

Dawnandjr, were you specifically thinking of Lord as one of the components when you decided on the breeding? I hope those puppies turn out wonderfully for you!


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## Smithie86

The other thing to remember is that the pedigree is just one part of the equation. Paper to paper looks great, dogs are great, but sometime the combo does not 'click"


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## cliffson1

Sue,
that is the complexity of successful breeding. It takes understanding the phenotype and the geneotype. I find it very interesting that Gabor is a world class trainer and travels to Europe extensively and Sees the performance of the top dog competing while competing with them. Yet, we seem to end up using some of the same dogs in our breeding programs. Though we don't talk performance or pedigree...we often end up the same place. I agree wholeheartedly with you comment. The people who really are knowledgeable about the performance and pedigrees of dogs are able to oftentimes not get caught up in hype. Still, as you say breeding is an art as much as science and there are no guarantees how the genes will manifest themselves. But that's what makes it Fun.


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## Smithie86

Cliff,

That is the cool part. It is confirmation of what he likes and what the dogs produce.


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## cliffson1

I think Sue brings up an interesting point when it comes to pedigrees. 
I personally think their are different levels of pedigree knowledge that affect how important is pedigree knowledge. 
You have people who can quote you the names of dogs in a pedigree for 5 or 6 generations. They know the names but not necessarily the "traits" that go with those names other than maybe hips and trial/show performance. I found this a lot in the show world years ago because there was no performance elements to be able to judge physical working traits.
You have people who know the dogs in the pedigree and have a good understanding what that dog or line brings to the table in terms of positive and negative traits. These people are often in the performance world where you can visibly see certain strengths and weaknesses of dogs/lines. These people are often "plugged" in to networks and friends, and mentors that give them vast anecedotal information about dogs/lines of past and present. You often hear people say that training your own dog to a high level is a vital part of breeding. There is much merit in that, as even if the pedigree or the appearance or even the record of the dog is stellar, once you understand the thresholds of the breed, it is easier to tell substance from glitter. 
Lastly, there are people who have vast knowledge of pedigrees, experience, and participation in the breed at high levels. Many of these people are in Europe where they have natural advantages, but there are some in America like Sue and her husband Gabor. Their pedigree knowledge is enhanced by all three aspects(performance, bloodlines, and experience) and are the type you can learn a lot from that will help avoid mistakes in breeding.JMO


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## Smithie86

Cliff,

Thank you, but it is Gabor with the experience and knowledge . He is also pretty black and white when he is looking at his own dogs as well as dogs we are looking at using.

Another thing is to not let the pedigree overshadow from a health and structure standpoint, including faults. We like males that are physically fit and active to the later years. That shows an important element.


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## cliffson1

Another great point you make about activity and strength. Many here know I like the Stud Tom z Pohraninci straze. Aside from his performance as police dog, he sired my female at 11 1/2 years old naturally. I look for dogs that have that type virility.(Nowdays you have people using studs that if the female looks cross at the stud he won't breed). IMO, these dogs shouldn't be bred. Productive longevity is very important in making breeding decisions and strength and vitality are things we want to pass on. Totally agree, Sue!!


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## cliffson1

This is one of the reason I will seldom want progeny out of the young studs. Not to say that a young stud can't produce well, but almost all my dogs are sired by males that are eight years or better. I believe this gives me an opportunity to know the dog's body of work in production to go along with performance and pedigree.


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## onyx'girl

1995 Lord video


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## wolfstraum

Well - having had a female line bred 2-5,5 on Lord, I am going to jump in on this.

First off - I will say I am really really tired of hearing what a POS Alk was as a producer every time I mention my Alk daughter (from people who never saw her BTW) - we all know that he was bred to tons of females without any consideration of pedigree, type, suitablity etc....so yes, there were more litters than not that were not sucessful....I see plenty of issues with dogs that are from producers that get swooned over on this board constantly - but I do not return the disrespect on this board . Kyra was reslilent, strong in the work, superb in hunt and tracking, saw the sport as a game, unless she was presented with a strong helper who was truly a threat. She worked on any field, on any helper, in dark buildings, on bite suits, hidden sleves, tested by many K9 officers, was socialble to a fault sometimes, loved kids, was athletic and full of energy up to the day she died. She passed on the phenomenal hunt drive and the stable environmental nerves and solid temperament. One son is a dual purpose K9 on the Canadian border for the State Police, and has also been used sucessfully as an SAR dog in snowy mountains. 

Look at this website....

http://doggear.net/webusers/kennels/gsdk9/

Breeding since 1980 - used Alk a bunch - lots of certifed K9's from Alk - their Mattoon v Hundemark a 3/4 sister to my Kyra - going back through their Yago v d Polizei....I am honored to count these people as friends....and trust their opinions of temperament and true suitablity for real work implicitly. Tonka, Mary's present K9 is a son of Matty - my Csabre a daughter of Kyra...both from Alk daughters....Tonka one of the nicest looking and strongest dogs I have seen - and Matty was a producer of MANY police K9s and SAR dogs.

Personally - I LIKE what I have that comes from Lord....there was a little too much independence in Kyra, but getting the biddability back was easy enough - and is carrying through. BTW - Kormeister Scheld and I have had several conversations about breeding with Lord in my lines specifically...."NO FERO" - from the dogs I have seen with Lord (& Alk) crossing with Fero (not through the well known sons though) - I would be very hesitant to bring Fero in randomly - it would have to be a very very special dog and the Fero (probably through only Troll/Aly) would have to be combined with other lines known for strong nerves and health. 

Kyra was heavy on the Lierburgs, Ex Reiderstein, and some Kirschental - she was a natural on sheep - I could not control her - and if the trainer I started working sheep with had not been murdered, we would have pursued herding (large flock, border collie trainer) - Csabre was tested by Shelly Fritzke, who confirmed that she too would have done well herding.

IMO, there is way too much breeding to this big name (or son) or that - without any consideration or research on what can be expected. Many people forget that schutzhund was intended as a tool to understand and confirm the breeding suitability of the dog to make dogs for REAL work - and current sport lines and popular dogs are bred with sport in mind - not with suitability for real work....

Csabre's next litter is being done with the input of her grandmother's breeder - and should produce dogs for real work and sport - and the goal is to produce a dog suitable for police K9 training and one I can bring back to my favorite Belgian lines again as the I's are very nice indeed.


When Meghan got Kessy, she was in Germany, and we talked constantly, looking over many litters wtih her, and other than a bit busier than expected, Kessy is exactly what I would have predicted, the Lord shows exactly as expected. And she's pretty too!


Lee


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## cliffson1

I owned an Alk daughter. She was from the H litter and her mother was a daughter of Orthos v Tiekerhook whom Greg was quite successful with as police and competition dog.


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## Vandal

You tell 'em Lee!
Don't know about Alk, don't really care about Alk........... could be a different type of dog entirely but the video shows a dog with a good amount of fight drive. There are a lot less dogs like that now, that is for certain. I still don't care for the lack of a mask but Lord himself looked to be a strong dog.

On another note, my WinSis program says Lord was born in 1983. That video has a time stamp on it that says 1995. I am having a hard time believing that is a 12 year old dog. Maybe transfered to a different video camera...who knows.


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## bocron

Vandal said:


> You tell 'em Lee!
> On another note, my WinSis program says Lord was born in 1983. That video has a time stamp on it that says 1995. I am having a hard time believing that is a 12 year old dog. Maybe transfered to a different video camera...who knows.


If you read the description on Youtube, it says they recorded it from TV in 1995, but the actual video is not from 1995.


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## cliffson1

Lee, I agree with your assessment about Alk's being bred to by many different females and the varied results. Many showline people brought their dogs to Alk and even some American line. Alk was not the type of dog to dominate his progeny with the type of power and strength that his sire was capable of. For one thing Alk was all DDR, and had typical DDR traits, IMO. Genetically, Manto was a far superior son in terms of dominant strong dog and producing dominant strong dogs. This is because of Julia on the dam side, IMO. Julia's lines are from strong West working lines. I trialed with Alk and Greg in 98/99 in Pa. He scored a 99-96-99. He was a nice dog and I got a pup from him, but I believe he was not as strong as his father,imo. But Alk brought a lot to the table if used right and bred to the right females as you said Lee. JMO


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## Vandal

> If you read the description on Youtube, it says they recorded it from TV in 1995, but the actual video is not from 1995


Didn't read it, just watched the provided video. Thanks for clarifying.

I am not going to comment on Lord more than I have already. I think mostly, people take things a tad too personal when it comes to dogs. You either believe you have good dogs or you don't. If you produce good dogs, there is nothing to explain. One day, people will wake up and realize how damaging this over-explanation of bloodlines has been and how much the fascination with papers has damaged the breed. Sure, it's helpful to know about bloodlines if you are breeding dogs but there is some danger in doing that too much. I have done this for a while and have heard people talk about bloodlines and dogs for years. The best breeders I know however, did not do this for hours on end or spend time writing up pedigree opinions. They were too busy working their dogs and figuring out what made them tick. Sure, those dogs were from certain bloodlines and they knew what those lines were bringing to the table. But, the reason they knew is because they were working the dogs more than they were talking about his papers. 

Nowadays, we have people claiming they want this and that in their dog. They hear people use terms like social aggression, for example, and think that is what they want without having a CLUE what that means for them in "real time". They have no idea about when to do what with certain bloodlines and I think this has been a big reason we have dogs here in the US that no one will use for breeding. I have worked lots of dogs as the helper. Many of those dogs were very, very good dogs with really BAD training. Bad training and this huge void in understanding the dogs is a major reason we are where we are at nowadays . It was a problem years ago where people were just destroying one dog after the other with too much defense work. Now we have the opposite problem with training employing drive more than the other traits a GSD was intended to possess. We also have people who do not understand when a dog is ready for certain kinds of work in the training. For example, there are bloodlines where aggression shows up really early . These dogs will for sure BITE but they are not ready for a helper who sees that aggression and wants to keep pushing that button because it is the most obvious one. Maturity matters. On the other end of this, you have dogs who do not show aggression until much later and then you have the helpers who, one way or another, are going to get it out of the dog , even though it has not developed yet. Then what you are getting is insecurity, not aggression. Maturity matters here also but it not simply a matter of waiting, it is a matter of understanding the dog and what kind of work that dog will respond to. Nowadays, everyone is in a huge hurry. They get their four month old puppy out and have the helper work him in play. Then, later on, they wonder why that dog is so sleeve focused and refuses to bark. Basically, all the dogs are worked the same. When I started, the idea of doing that was considered stupid and absurd but back then, what was talked about the most was learning to read the dogs vs reading the points in the scorebook. 

My point here is, none of these discussions about bloodlines matter one bit if you don't know how to work with German Shepherds and the traits those different bloodlines offer . Years ago, I saw so many good dogs ruined and I wished I could do more to help the dogs. That is why I choose to talk about training vs bloodlines because to this day, the thing that is understood the least is the DOGS themselves. That ignorance has led us to where we are today and if you think that is a good thing, you have been around for two weeks or you have not been paying attention.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to offend anyone. Certainly some of this is interesting for people. Just commenting on what I see as a rather significant problem that only seems to be getting worse.


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## lhczth

> That is why I choose to talk about training vs bloodlines because to this day, the thing that is understood the least is the DOGS themselves.


:thumbup:


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## Smithie86

lhczth said:


> :thumbup:


I agree as well.


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## cliffson1

Anne, 
I think your post is very accurate and it certainly doesn't offend me. I have and still train dogs on a regular basis in sport and with police. (BTW, the SDA trial in Nov. my dog took HIT in P-1 which is roughly equivalent to Sch 1 in obedience and protection). Many people are interested in pedigrees and it is definitely not the end all to be all. It helps me to have some good dogs on my property or maybe some of you think I'm lucky
I try to help some people from this forum, if I had an Xbox360 in dog training maybe I could help them in training, but haven't figured that out yet. I totally agree about the changes in dogs and training over time and much of the things today are done differently. But then Sch is in a different position then it was years ago. Today many trainers and dogs are judged by a Sch standard. Not saying that is right or wrong and I have trained with some of the best in this country....but it is different training then we do at the police academy.
When training in sport I have one mindset, when training with L E dogs I have a somewhat different mindset...its all good. There are still good dogs out there, I see them all the time, not necessarily on the Sch field (though they are there also), but also in people's homes and in Law Enforcement. 
Like I said, I agree with your assessment Anne, me being offended...not hardly because I would need to come here for validation to be offended about what I do. I always feel there are three side to a story, left, right, and the middle. At the end of the day I think we probably like and have the same kind of dogs....the means to this may be varied but probably not an accident on either part.


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## cliffson1

Many people are tired of pedigree talk, cool with me! As for now I will leave the pedigree talk to others...Won't affect my knowledgebase one iota!!...peace!!!


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## ILGHAUS

I am enjoying reading this thread though it is somewhat over my head. I currently have 2 Lord grandsons and a 3rd who passed in Feb. this year. So for as many people who are tired of the topic there are probably as many that read to learn.


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## onyx'girl

I love reading as well...Cliff, Anne and Lee(and others) keep educating please!!


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## Smithie86

Cliff,

What I agree on with Anne is people that toss around phrases, know paper pedigrees (based on majority of info from others and/or mentors), but do not know what those phrases really mean and how the dog is, how peds can or can not click together. Based on what people said about "x" dog, based on breeding, it clouds what their perception is of the dog and they dog is typecast into what the person wants to see (pros or cons).

Paper to paper might or might not produce the dog that one would think.

If that makes sense.


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## Smithie86

Forgot to add. 

One element that comes up is the helpers that are not training helpers, people that do this as a business, not as a sport. There are very few really good, austute, knowledgable, flexible and physically fit training helpers in the states.

There are many paid helpers, paid at clubs and/or by breeders. 

How do you also get an objective view of a dogs work if the helper is the paid helper for the person who owns or owns/trains the dog?


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## GSDElsa

Can someone delete this? Somehow ended up with a double post.


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## GSDElsa

Smithie86 said:


> How do you also get an objective view of a dogs work if the helper is the paid helper for the person who owns or owns/trains the dog?


My first thought about this is the same as my job: providing a salary should not prevent a person to tell what _*is*_...not what someone wants to hear. In the long run a helper sugarcoating is not going to be a benefit to anyone in the long run. A good helper--paid or not--should be able to see that and put what is right before the dollar. I'm a black and white person and I know most things aren't that way...but they should be.

Wishful thinking, I suppose.


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## onyx'girl

I think if a helper is sugar-coating the dogs potential it will come back to bite him in the butt at trial time! 
I pay the helpers I've trained with and the helpers never sugar coat it. They know their reputation would be on the line if they continued to work a dog that isn't worthy.
But on the other hand, they look at the big picture and what is in the heart of the dog, so it may be a long road for some~ if they don't show the potential early on, it will come out with proper training.
One of my females wasn't SchH material, and one of the trainers said I could work her thru it if that is what _I _truely wanted, the dog _didn't _want it, and that is what matters most.


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## Wilhoit

cliffson1 said:


> I think Sue brings up an interesting point when it comes to pedigrees.
> I personally think their are different levels of pedigree knowledge that affect how important is pedigree knowledge.
> You have people who can quote you the names of dogs in a pedigree for 5 or 6 generations. They know the names but not necessarily the "traits" that go with those names other than maybe hips and trial/show performance. I found this a lot in the show world years ago because there was no performance elements to be able to judge physical working traits.
> You have people who know the dogs in the pedigree and have a good understanding what that dog or line brings to the table in terms of positive and negative traits. These people are often in the performance world where you can visibly see certain strengths and weaknesses of dogs/lines. These people are often "plugged" in to networks and friends, and mentors that give them vast anecedotal information about dogs/lines of past and present. You often hear people say that training your own dog to a high level is a vital part of breeding. There is much merit in that, as even if the pedigree or the appearance or even the record of the dog is stellar, once you understand the thresholds of the breed, it is easier to tell substance from glitter.
> Lastly, there are people who have vast knowledge of pedigrees, experience, and participation in the breed at high levels. Many of these people are in Europe where they have natural advantages, but there are some in America like Sue and her husband Gabor. Their pedigree knowledge is enhanced by all three aspects(performance, bloodlines, and experience) and are the type you can learn a lot from that will help avoid mistakes in breeding.JMO


 
This post, for me, helped me get a grasp on all the others. The three levels of pedigree knowledge synopsized so well what everyone else was talking about and helped me to appreciate more fully the riches in the other posts. Thank you, Cliff!

I am one of the others who are learning and who feel that pedigrees, properly understood and applied in breeding choices, are an essential part of breeding good dogs. It behoves me to learn as much as I can about them, otherwise, I only have myself to blame if I end up with the kind of dog that doesn't fit my requirements. 

Lee's meaty post about the intricacies of properly using lines and dogs in breeding was great illustration of how a breeder operates who understands the use of pedigrees, and can pull in desirable traits to complement those she had already in Kyra. Police work, in my uneducated opinion, is right up there with herding (range sheep, like Cliff described!), in indicating breedworthy dogs.

Anne's post was an awful warning about the dangers of us newbies trusting ignorant/kennel blind breeders who cannot understand what dogs to breed because they have no real knowledge of the dogs themselves--in Cliff's first category of those who only understand pedigrees and not dogs.

There is so much to thank you all for. One thing I especially enjoyed and from which I profited greatly were the series of posts between Smithie and Cliff, riffing off of each others knowledge in such a collegial fashion!

Thanks, too, for the video!


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## Wilhoit

I just watched Onyx/girl's video of Lord again, and I have some off the wall questions (I won't be offended if no one answers!). What routine was displayed at the end, when Lord crawls toward the handler and then finishes with a smart front sit? Is this something from police work?

Several more questions: What kind of drive or motivation impelled this big, tough dog to want to throw himself into his handler's arms at the end? Was he high in pack drive, or was this a form of dominance?

The one thing I think I was capable of noticing was that Lord seemed pretty relaxed--there was no tension (if I understood at all what I saw!) in the dog's drive to nail the helper. It seemed a part of a real toughness. If I am all wrong in what I thought I saw, please let me know!

I think Anne is right that we (the learners) need to learn, above all, what makes a dog tick so we can train them responsibly and not ruin them. That is why I'm asking!


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## gagsd

Regarding discussion vs. training....... I REALLY appreciate people taking the time to discuss these things. Yes, there is certainly a danger of someone on the receiving end misreading or misusing information/advice given. However I think that danger is outweighed by the thought it provokes in those who really want to learn.

Example, in the video of Lord posted, the dog regrips and has a tendency to thrash the sleeve. My dog goes back to Lord, and many times back to Ingo. My dog also thrashes and regrips. The fallacy might be if I said to myself, "Well he gets this from Lord," versus dealing with the rerality that I as the handler am causing some of the issues.

Does that make sense?


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## holland

I thought the best part of the video was the end of it-it looked to me as if it were a trick they taught the dog to crawl-I saw that as them just having fun together.


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## Xeph

I think it makes very much sense. While there is the possibility that Lord's passed genetics are the cause of your dog's thrashing, your dog is still and individual. While many traits can be attributed to various dogs in his pedigrees, some things are just "the way the dog is" as well as the result of training on the part of the handler.

It would probably be a truer statement that he got the thrashing from Lord if several more progeny with various handlers and trainers did the same.

At least that's how I'm interpreting it (I'm probably not explaining what I'm thinking very clearly though....)


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## gagsd

Wilhoit said:


> What routine was displayed at the end, when Lord crawls toward the handler and then finishes with a smart front sit? Is this something from police work?


Just watching it, and thinking East Germany, makes me think crawling under a fence/barb wire.


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## wolfstraum

Pedigrees are an important PART of breeding - not a be-all/end-all!!!!! Having studied TB horses all my life (and Arabs, Apps and some QH) - pedigrees were a blue print as to what possibilities a breeding should bring....and what negatives come with the territory....Mr Prospectors for example - lots of bad bad front legs - but wow - the speed.....so it is a balance of risks and probability - ie - a GAMBLE!!! 

In dogs only about 12 years - I made it a point to study the pedigree of every dog I could find that I got to see work....saw common traits coming from common lines - did tons of online and telephone research....and like TBs - looked for - and found nicks and patterns - but watching dogs in training and in social environments always trying to learn what they were exhibiting and how much was the dog and how much was masked or enhanced by the skill/lack of skill of the people involved - handler/trainer/helper....

See dogs get big points because of skilled training, and some terrific dogs get average scores with minimal training - recognizing that the points do not tell the true story....a World dog in my hands from puppyhood will get titled eventually with mid 80s to mid 90s LOL just because of my time and training resources and skill level....and a dog who does not track but 3 or 4 times in a year, gets 2 weekends of brush up and gets an 87 is a dog who has a ton of innate talent and drive....score means nothing....

What knowing a pedigree and about the family of a dog does is help me to understand what I see in the dog at training...to understand what drives are more natural in that dog, and to wonder rather than assume why a reaction is a certain way....and on the flip side, when I know pedigrees/family traits and see a dog with problems, to not immediately pass it off as bad training but look to the pedigree for a possible source.

Everyone has their favorite dogs/lines - usually based on the dogs they personally see/know that they like! And same with what they dislike! I have seen dozens of dogs with XYZ in common - and do not like Factor A in them....so I avoid XYZ - even if he is sucessful elsewhere! On the other hand, I will use a dog with pedigree factors I do not like - if I see enough of the dog to believe he is not expressing/producing the factors I do not like - because I know that pedigrees do not tell 100% of the story!!! I have planned a breeding to a dog whose pedigree carries a name I have always avoided - because I have spent enough time with a ball in one hand and the dog's leash in another, have seen the dog work in training, in a trial, relaxing at liberty, and seen puppies whose pedigree are 3/4 of what I would have using him....lol lol never say never!!! 

The problem with pedigree discussion is that paper is not a 100% proof positive of what will end up on the end of the leash!!! 

Lee


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## tmchurch

*Lord vom Gleisdreieck progeny*

I bought a dog from a so called "backyard breeder" not knowing what I was doing or what the dog represented. Back then, I didn't even know what backyard breeder meant. 

Turned out my 10 yo GSD is a Lord great grandson, and had a lot of other somewhat well known dogs in his pedigree, on the dam side, all german or czech dogs. I have never had a better animal for a family pet, ever. Don't know much about the protection dog business, but this guy is the sweetest animal - he has an instinct where somehow he knows who is OK and who is not, and can be as tender as a mother to a child, especially a crying kid, and at the same time show a stranger to the family his place. Amazing. My goal in retirement years is to find and train animals like him, I know he will only live a few more years. Never a health problem, hips good, etc. Looks very much like Lord. 

Just my 2 cents worth from one newbie to another.


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## Chris Wild

Wilhoit said:


> I just watched Onyx/girl's video of Lord again, and I have some off the wall questions (I won't be offended if no one answers!). What routine was displayed at the end, when Lord crawls toward the handler and then finishes with a smart front sit? Is this something from police work?


The crawl was an exercise in the East German version of SchH in those days. Like all the exercises in SchH, it harkened back to police/military training work, in this case crawling under fence/wire.


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## cliffson1

I think the Zvv title in Czech Republic still has a crawling exercise.


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## Wilhoit

tmchurch, your "two cents" is worth a great deal to me. Your dog has many of my GSD, Wilhoit's traits. I was always amazed at how he was so gentle and responsive and also had such good judgement about people and would not hesitate to protect me, but was so reliable and obedient. He was a rescue and no one knew his origins. I suspected that he had some DDR in him. And yes, he had a number of the other traits members mentioned here about their dogs. I asked this question about Lord not just because I'm interested in learning about bloodlines (I am!), but because I'm trying to get some clues as to where I could find similar traits in the future. If you'd like to tell us more about your dog and post some photos, I love to hear more about him!

Ah, thank you Chris and Cliff. That's really interesting!


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## wolfstraum

tmchurch said:


> Turned out my 10 yo GSD is a Lord great grandson, and had a lot of other somewhat well known dogs in his pedigree, on the dam side, all german or czech dogs. I have never had a better animal for a family pet, ever. Don't know much about the protection dog business, but this guy is the sweetest animal - he has an instinct where somehow he knows who is OK and who is not, and can be as tender as a mother to a child, especially a crying kid, and at the same time show a stranger to the family his place. Amazing. My goal in retirement years is to find and train animals like him, I know he will only live a few more years. Never a health problem, hips good, etc. Looks very much like Lord.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth from one newbie to another.


And this is what breeding proper temperament should give you...that balance and discernment in temperament....genes will come through even when inadvertantly combined ....

Lee


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