# Info on this breeder and website...



## class3204 (Dec 27, 2009)

Can you please give me feed back. Also can you look at the for sale page and comment on "Tasha"

http://www.cbk9.com


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

She is a cutie pie! <3 I can't comment on the professional stuff really but they seem pretty good. They have titles on their dogs and hip and health guarantees. I'm sure some of the more expirenced ppl can help you when they see this. Tasha is a sweetheart though!


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

They look like a small hobby breeder to me and they seem to focus on Schutzhund. It is really going to depend on what your plans are for the puppy. As a pet this type of dog and lines is not one of the best IMHO. This particular line has the extreme slope to the back which in many cases will put unnecessary stress on the animals back. 

http://www.vomhausmiller.com/images/risky08062.jpg

This is an image of what the standard slope in a GSD's back should be. 

And this...

http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm

So the short of it is that this is not a good example of the breed. This is a hobby breeder taking the sloped back to a costly health extreme. If you are looking for nothing more than a pet there are many other breeders that are good breeders that breed with the overall health including the back into consideration. If this is the look that you like I suggest researching the health problems that come with the extreme sloped back so you are prepared.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:This particular line has the extreme slope to the back which in many cases will put unnecessary stress on the animals back.


And what kind of problems will this cause? What sort of documentation do you have for this claim?


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

I'm curious about something I saw on this breeders page (http://www.cbk9.com/ourdogs/ourdogs.html).

Under "V Accie vom Clearcreek Bauernhof SchH I KKL1-a-normal ZW: 75" there is a picture with the name "URMA" on it. Now my breeder had the same name on one of her dogs photos (actually, on Siena's sire... Diego... http://nadelhaus.com/) and have seen it on countless other sites too).

Is this perhaps the photographer name? The typefont is the same on all and I've always wondered.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

This is a German Showline kennel. They seem to be working their own dogs, which is good. Showlines often make very good pets. As far as Tasha, she is a cutie.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: DianaBIs this perhaps the photographer name? The typefont is the same on all and I've always wondered.


http://www.fotourma.com/eng.html


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DianaBIs this perhaps the photographer name? The typefont is the same on all and I've always wondered.
> ...


Awesome. Thanks. I feel like it was a dumb question, but glad it was answered!


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:This particular line has the extreme slope to the back which in many cases will put unnecessary stress on the animals back.
> ...


There is plenty of documentation on it if one looks.


http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/05_The_Hindquarters/The_Hindquarters.html

The dogs on the website have a slope that does not start at the sacral joint. It starts further up. 

"The spine is not designed to absorb a great deal of force while curved, and this should be considered a serious fault."

"Excess angulation can be cause for concern. The more acute the angulation, the more energy the dog must expend both to hold up the levers of its rear when standing, and to move them when gaiting. Typically, as the angle between upper and lower thighs becomes more acute, the tibia/fibula becomes proportionately longer than the femur, pushing the hock closer to the ground and increasing the angle between the tibia/fibula and the metatarsus, a condition known as sickle hocks."

http://www.olderhill.co.za/press.html

"Too much fiddling around to give the dog a sloping back has caused a weakening of the back. Such dogs can't jump and will be injured by jumping, part of a working dog's function. "The spine - especially from the middle of the spine towards the tail becomes stiff and inflexible. Too much stress on this section causes it, literally, to disintegrate." 

http://www.mydogbreeds.com/dog-breeds/german-shepherd.asp

Basically the skeletal system of an extreme sloped back GSD is less flexible and sound. Jumping and rough play can injury their backs easier and the cases of hip dysplasia is more common because when the back is thrown off it also causes the hips to open up and take more trauma.

We all know that GSD's have hip and spine problems. The extreme sloping will give a much higher chance of injury and a dog that in it's senior years can not stand or move properly. Spondylosis and Hip Dysplasia are only two of the possible things that are more likely with an extremely sloped back.


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## class3204 (Dec 27, 2009)

Tri Shepherd- could this just look this way from the way the pics are taken??


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the sloped back is favored in the working dogs. There is a difference between German lines and American lines of German shepherds. The American lines have the flatter backs and are generally more laid back and suitable as household companions, wheras the German line shepherds are bred for their primary purpose - to work. 

Personally, I like the curve in the back. I prefer the German lines. Probably because of the more masculine (and possibly intimidating?) look they have. 

If the curve in the back really does affect their work, then why would it be preferred for working dogs?


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

It is not preferred in the Working lines it is preferred in the Show lines of the breed as the functionability of the spine is compromised. You will never see a Police dog, service dog, or search and rescue dog with a roach back.

class - I would say no as even in the "retirement" pictures of the stud you can see the slope in his back while he is playing in the water. 

That being said most of their females look to have better angles than their stud. 

http://www.myguardianangelshepherds.com/workingvsshow.html

The working lines is going to have a higher drive including a prey drive and a stronger straighter spine. The Show lines you can find both the extreme sloped spine and those that are bred without it. They will have less of a drive and are more suited as pets and companions. The AKC is taking measure against some breeders that are breeding for the extreme slope in the back. It is often referred to as a "roach back" when it is taken to an extreme. It can be crippling to a dog in it's later years. Not always but it can be as the stress is just greater than a normal sloped back or a straight back.

Really honestly it comes down to what you want from the dog as far as sport or companion, the activity and drive level you would like, and what look you like. My most honest suggestion is what ever line you pick research it. They all have good and bad points to them. 

I would have to see pictures of Tasha standing to see her back but from the sitting one on the right she looks pretty roached but that could be the angle. Do you have any idea as to who the sire and dam are? 

If I were looking for a sloped GSD from this line and look, the best looking dam in pictures only is Hanna. Her back seems to be more functional and to true standard but still sloped. She is too young bred yet though.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

Here is one last website to help you gain a little knowledge on the spine differences in the dogs and a way to help you see if you visit the dogs in person what to look for that could potentially cause problems later. 

And again I will say that your decision should really be based on what you want the dog to be and do and the look you want. just make it an informed decision.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey....I'm innocent!!!!LOL...Never met Tri-Shepherd a day in my life!!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:The AKC is taking measure against some breeders that are breeding for the extreme slope in the back.


And what measures would that be?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:Spondylosis and Hip Dysplasia are only two of the possible things that are more likely with an extremely sloped back.


Hip Dysplasia is not caused by an extremely sloped back. It is a polygenic condition that can be eveident in puppies as young as 5 months old by x-ray.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: KonotashiCorrect me if I'm wrong, but I think the sloped back is favored in the working dogs. There is a difference between German lines and American lines of German shepherds. The American lines have the flatter backs and are generally more laid back and suitable as household companions, wheras the German line shepherds are bred for their primary purpose - to work.
> 
> Personally, I like the curve in the back. I prefer the German lines. Probably because of the more masculine (and possibly intimidating?) look they have.
> 
> If the curve in the back really does affect their work, then why would it be preferred for working dogs?


Incorrect. The roached back is favored amongst the Euro show lines. Even though both working lines and Euro show lines will have working titles, there is a huge difference between the two in structure, temperament and focus in breeding. The dogs typically seen with the roached backs are not working lines, they are show lines. 

The roached back is a show ring thing, just like extreme rear angulation is favored in the American lines. The purpose of both is supposedly to create a more fluid, ground covering "flying trot". The two camps just took different structural roads of acomplishing that.

Both extreme rear angulation and roached backs are undesireable for work because while perhaps better for trotting, they hamper general speed and agility and can compromise structural integrity. So they are not typically found in the working lines.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Tri-Shepherds.......what are you talking about?! a roached back is a "fault" for any bloodline....WL or SL.
The highest point of the GSD back should be it's withers.....not the middle of the back, nor the rear end....and the "back" should not be "squared" & flat like a table.
As for working.....many, many SL dogs have ScH titles. A few carry the Universal Sieger Title...which means they had to compete in conformation & working.
There are also some SL dogs in the K9 units....
So I guess, I don't understand your comment, that the SL's are more suited as pets & companions???...
Good dogs are just that.....good dogs. WL or SL.
There are poorly "structured" dogs of all bloodlines.
Do you personally compete in the "venues"?
They should ALL be sound enough to be suited for companion homes.
I don't understand the posts....sorry.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaBI'm curious about something I saw on this breeders page (http://www.cbk9.com/ourdogs/ourdogs.html).
> 
> Under "V Accie vom Clearcreek Bauernhof SchH I KKL1-a-normal ZW: 75" there is a picture with the name "URMA" on it. Now my breeder had the same name on one of her dogs photos (actually, on Siena's sire... Diego... http://nadelhaus.com/) and have seen it on countless other sites too).
> 
> Is this perhaps the photographer name? The typefont is the same on all and I've always wondered.


Yes, Urma takes the photos. They also make the "Urma books" which are huge compilations of the photos from each year.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: class3204Tri Shepherd- could this just look this way from the way the pics are taken??


Often, yes. An obvious fault cannot really be disguised with stacking, but to really judge the dog and every angle in detail you need to see the dog in person and see him moving. I can stack my dog so that he has a straight back or a cuved back. I can make him look roached (wither not the highest). I can make him have a "broken" topline or not. You can manipulate a lot with a photo.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Tri-Shepherds......no disrespect meant....I really am confused about the posts...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: class3204Tri Shepherd- could this just look this way from the way the pics are taken??
> ...


Oh and also any photo can be altered on the computer! I've seen photos where the dog's topline was obviously smoothed, the color was changed, fringe hairs removed, etc. I do some manipulation myself like removing a leash, making the background less distracting, editing out something on the ground (like if the grass is perfect except for one big dead leaf).


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:Spondylosis and Hip Dysplasia are only two of the possible things that are more likely with an extremely sloped back.
> ...


http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2084&aid=444

"Exercise may be another risk factor. It appears that dogs that are genetically susceptible to the disease may have an increased incidence of disease if they over-exercised at a young age. But at the same time, we know that dogs with large and prominent leg muscle mass are less likely to contract the disease than dogs with small muscle mass. So, exercising and maintaining good muscle mass may actually decrease the incidence of the disease. Moderate exercise that strengthens the gluteal muscles, such as running and swimming, is probably a good idea. Whereas, activities that apply a lot of force to the joint are contraindicated. An example would be jumping activities such as playing Frisbee."

Roach backed dogs do not have the strength of muscle development in their hindquarters that a straight backed dog has because the way they push off and the way the energy is used. 

I already quoted articles that clearly state that in roach backed dogs the pelvis tilt cause the hips to be more open and jumping will cause injury to the joints. Are you going to argue with science that injury and exercise that stresses the hip joints does not show a higher occurrence of HD? Because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd
> I already quoted articles that clearly state that in roach backed dogs the pelvis tilt cause the hips to be more open and jumping will cause injury to the joints. Are you going to argue with science that injury and exercise that stresses the hip joints does not show a higher occurrence of HD? Because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.


"Articles" are not science, anyone can find dozens of .com articles that will say or "prove" anything. There are plenty of dogs with roached backs with significantly lower ZW scores than many dogs with straight and/or horizontal backs.


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## class3204 (Dec 27, 2009)

I appreciate everyones help and knowledge! She will be a family dog if i go ahead with her. I will not do any kind of showing. Can everyone comment on her coat for me??


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:The AKC is taking measure against some breeders that are breeding for the extreme slope in the back.
> ...


I can not find the news article I read on it a few days ago although it is after 10:30am and I have not slept yet. However, since the BBC video was put out and the AKC at first tried to say that American Show Lines are not in danger like the German Show Lines are they are now encouraging breeders to adhere to the standards and not have structural problems in the line. So I guess it isn't necessarily "measures" until it gets to where they change their judging away from the steep angled backs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anyway, to the point....based on the web site, if you like the puppy I would definitely pursue it. The breeder is a member of several training clubs/competition venues, the dogs are titled, health is guaranteed.

The coat on the puppy is interesting, is that a long coat?

ETA: The kid in the pics showing dogs, I see him showing all over and read an article about him in one of the GSD publication (probably WDA). I would say this family is very invovled in the dogs and the GSD community. To me that is more valuable than a puppy who *looks* exactly like what I want, if that makes sense.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaTri-Shepherds.......what are you talking about?! a roached back is a "fault" for any bloodline....WL or SL.
> The highest point of the GSD back should be it's withers.....not the middle of the back, nor the rear end....and the "back" should not be "squared" & flat like a table.
> As for working.....many, many SL dogs have ScH titles. A few carry the Universal Sieger Title...which means they had to compete in conformation & working.
> There are also some SL dogs in the K9 units....
> ...


Where did I say it wasn't a fault? Roach back is a fault in almost all breeds. And that also extends to must mammals







If you get a Working Line GSD as a first dog and you are wanting nothing more than a companion or pet and will not give the dog a job or a lot of exercise than that dog is much more likely to have a behavior problem that stems from boredom. 

I do not compete with GSD's in the Show Ring I do not want to own a dog that is so far off from the standard for the sake of a ribbon over it's health. I do show my DDB. 

The Germans almost demand of their Show Lines to have SCH training to try to sell the dog as suitable for more than it is. There was multiple articles on this a while back but again I'm sorry I have been awake with sick kids for almost 24 straight hours. Anyone that has done SCH training can freely admit that most dogs that go through training pass but are not the best at SCH. The true Working Dogs with the drive and temperament they are supposed to have far outclass the Show Lines. 

Of course there are poorly structured dogs in every breed in every line. I never said that there wasn't I also encouraged the OP to see the dogs in person and research them and the lines before making a decision so that it was informed and not just someones opinion. 

The fact is that American and German Show Lines do not have the drive of the Working Lines. Some do....most do not. I have 3 American Show Lines without angled backs, and one of them has the drive of a Working Line. He does not stop running and running and herding the kids and other dogs. I still stand by the fact that a first time GSD owner will not be a good fit for a high drive Working Line Shepherd as just a companion dog with no activities or jobs for the dog. No where did I state that Working Lines are not sound as "sound" enough. Simply that it is not best suited as a pet only with no activities.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:The AKC is taking measure against some breeders that are breeding for the extreme slope in the back.
> ...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article6736693.ece

Found the version of the UK Kennel Clubs actions. Not going to bother to look for the other at this hour on the AKC.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Well.......I finally actually "read" this entire post.
The Kennel that you are referring to....IS active in the sport(s).
The child "handling" the dogs, is a wonderful Jr. handler...and very talented. The stud dogs used have very good temperment, and are structurely sound.....I have met the dogs in person.
BTW-The young dog in "question" is not a long coat...she looks to be un-groomed at the time the pic was taken...or possibly just bathed. She has a decent pedigree, if you trully are interested in her....I would contact the breeder, and take it from there..
As for the German Showlines not being (physically) capable of actually working.....what a completely false comment. 
Kirschental dogs are BOTH SL & WL are are both ScH dogs and Herding dogs. There are also Universal Sieger dogs from all German Showlines that are multiple ScH3 titled. Just as there are wonderful Working line dogs that conform to a solid V-rating in conformation & are ScH titled. 
ALL sound GSD make wonderful family companions.
What experience are you basing your posts on?? Articles? Stats?
You cannot base "fact" from "fiction"......unless you actually "practice" what is being preached.
Many of us actually compete, train & show the GSDs we breed and own......we actually know first hand the bloodlines you speak poorly of.
Of course be careful, when looking to invest in any dog/puppy....it's a life long commitment(usually)...
I own both working & show line dogs....both are structurely & mind sound.
WL vs SL will always be a hot topic....we can all agree to disagree.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaWell.......I finally actually "read" this entire post.
> The Kennel that you are referring to....IS active in the sport(s).
> The child "handling" the dogs, is a wonderful Jr. handler...and very talented. The stud dogs used have very good temperment, and are structurely sound.....I have met the dogs in person.
> BTW-The young dog in "question" is not a long coat...she looks to be un-groomed at the time the pic was taken...or possibly just bathed. She has a decent pedigree, if you trully are interested in her....I would contact the breeder, and take it from there..
> ...


First off nowhere did I state that I breed GSD's. There are far too many dying in shelter to breed more dogs into the ever growing problem. Try more than 7,000 a day are in shelters and those are only the ones listed on Petfinder. Also I would refuse to conform to the American Show Line standard of the extreme slope to the back. Also nowhere did I state that there are never any Show Lines that can compete but there are not many it all depends on many different aspects not just what line someone decides to place it under. 

And again there you go saying I talked about them being "sound" or not. Please stick to the facts as you claim I don't. Working Line Shepherds are too much dog for many people. You want proof of that? Look at the statistics on them in shelters. Have you ever worked with GAP and seen the number of Working Lines that are too much dog for people and land in shelters? I have. 

http://www.gapdogs.org/dogs.htm

That is a small sampling of the placements. These dogs are mostly owner surrender and shelter dogs. 

As for a little background I have owned Shepherds for 34 years and they have been owned in my family for over 100 years. My grandfather not only was in the military with Working Lines Shepherds but was also the Chief of Police and the only K-9 Unit in the force back in the day. 

There are still some breeders that believe in integrating the Lines to have Shepherds that can Work and Show. 

Of course you will still deny that a "roach back" does affect the spine of a dog. And that's fine that is you. Of course you also believe that you must be mightier and smarter than others. I guess opinions are like....well you get the point. Just remember that just because I don't breed or show Shepherds and chose to rescue mine does not make your opinion or knowledge on the breed any better than mine. You have no idea what kind of genetic or pedigree research I am knowledgeable about or have studied. Because I chose to breed a different breed of dog does not make me an idiot about German Shepherd Lines.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are plenty of dogs bred for show that are not extreme. They may not make it in the show ring due to this lack of exremity. If the nerves are decent and the temperament is good, the dog could make someone a pet. Most of them do.

I prefer working line dogs myself, but many people obviously are quite happy with a pet from either type of showline. I personally have owned and trained them all.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Volunteered for a rescue in Chicago, owned several rescue dogs....Rotts, Dobie, Pit mix,... worked as a vet tech for 6yrs, Train, Breed (GSD) for over 15 yrs.......no where am I mightier than thou....or anyone else.
I just CHOOSE to not condemn breeders, bloodlines & post against something that I personally do not have 1st hand knowledge about.
As for rescues.....own 3 now....(not good candidates for most homes).
ScH titles do not MAKE the dog.....it's a sport. Many wonderful dogs will never have a "sporting" title....it does not make them any less of an ambassador of the breed.
If you feel like an idiot....that is completely on your own.
I don't even know you....how could I possibly refer to you as such?
AND those that actually do know me......would know better than that.
It is wonderful to be book smart and article(s) fluent.....but you cannot condemn simply by that.....thats the point I am making.
Hope your day gets better....didn't mean to strike a nerve...trully NOT my intention.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaVolunteered for a rescue in Chicago, owned several rescue dogs....Rotts, Dobie, Pit mix,... worked as a vet tech for 6yrs, Train, Breed (GSD) for over 15 yrs.......no where am I mightier than thou....or anyone else.
> I just CHOOSE to not condemn breeders, bloodlines & post against something that I personally do not have 1st hand knowledge about.
> As for rescues.....own 3 now....(not good candidates for most homes).
> ScH titles do not MAKE the dog.....it's a sport. Many wonderful dogs will never have a "sporting" title....it does not make them any less of an ambassador of the breed.
> ...










Now "I feel like an idiot"? And where did I state that? The only thing I stated was wrong with the dogs is a roached back. It is structurally not sound. Sorry to bust your bubble but I was also in vet school for a few years before I chose my children over a career. Ever see the x-rays of a roach back anything? Worked as a vet tech all through college and have worked in shelters. You still think that I am only book smart yet I currently own 3 American Show Lines. How do I not have any first hand knowledge again? 

http://mousemutant.jax.org/images/nm3485-kyphosis-reduced.jpg

There is a roach back mouse although more extreme than German Show Lines are you can see how the spine loses function. And nowhere did I state there are less of an "ambassador" of the breed I only stated fact that a roach back makes them more prone to heath problems and they have less flexibility and functionability in the spine. Show me a canine in the wild where they evolve for functionability that is roach backed. 

And if you are so content on me having proof to back my claim that they are more prone to health problems where is your proof that they aren't?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

You need to take a chill.......you should start over by reading your own posts.
This all started because you condemned a particular breeder & bloodlines that you have no personal knowledge of.
You advised a poster to look elsewhere, because of "stats" and "articles" you have read and posted....not because you actually know anything about the dog or the breeder.
There is nothing wrong with the dog's build...nor the dogs on the website.
I contradicted your posts...and you had a melt down.
Roach backs?....you speak of them as a "given" with SL dogs....poor health?...another given?
Get off the roached back kick!...it's old.
Thats not what my original post pertained to, and you know it.
It was about your expert opinion on physical health & temperment of specific bloodlines, and a specific puppy, that you informed the OP of.....
I originally posted contradicting the health & temperment issues....you carried it further.
I live & breath the GSD breed also.....both WL & SL.
You own 3 American GSD....that's great! I'm sure they are all just as wonderful as my dogs are.
You should breed the dogs you want....and I'll continue to breed the dogs that I want. I'm sure you dedicate alot of time and love into your dogs. 
You seem to have a true problem with anything or anyone that would contradict your point of view.......like you said....about opinions...?
I'm just a firm believer, that one should practice what they preach.
Don't bust a nerve...or become verbally ignorant, because I don't share your points of view. What a shame. People that dedicate their lives to the breed...should at least have the class to be civil in debates.
Your personal opinion of me is as relevant as mine is of you....
Have a nice day.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaYou need to take a chill.......you should start over by reading your own posts.
> This all started because you condemned a particular breeder & bloodlines that you have no personal knowledge of.
> You advised a poster to look elsewhere, because of "stats" and "articles" you have read and posted....not because you actually know anything about the dog or the breeder.
> There is nothing wrong with the dog's build...nor the dogs on the website.
> ...










Where exactly did I condemn the breeder?

"They look like a small hobby breeder to me and they seem to focus on Schutzhund. It is really going to depend on what your plans are for the puppy. As a pet this type of dog and lines is not one of the best IMHO. "

Is that it where it says IMHO?

"The working lines is going to have a higher drive including a prey drive and a stronger straighter spine. The Show lines you can find both the extreme sloped spine and those that are bred without it."

Or here? Where is is common knowledge the differences in the lines?

"Really honestly it comes down to what you want from the dog as far as sport or companion, the activity and drive level you would like, and what look you like. My most honest suggestion is what ever line you pick research it. They all have good and bad points to them."

Or here where I encouraged her to do research on the different lines?

"Here is one last website to help you gain a little knowledge on the spine differences in the dogs and a way to help you see if you visit the dogs in person what to look for that could potentially cause problems later.

And again I will say that your decision should really be based on what you want the dog to be and do and the look you want. just make it an informed decision."

Or was it there where I further encouraged her to research the different back slopes and make an educated decision?

I have no problem with contradicting points of view, but when you waltz in and claim I know nothing. And then further it by stating I said things I never did. I have a real problem with that. The words "extreme" were used many times referring to the dogs of this specific breeder. The male they have listed as retired is roached in his retirement pictures playing in the water. That is extreme. If you would also read and comprehend what was posted I stated that the females backs were not taken to the extreme that the males back was and that Hanna had the best looking back as far as the slope. No where did I tell the OP to go somewhere else I did many times tell her to do research and make an informed decision. You have turned a thread that the OP asked opinions on into a personal attack of my opinion that in no way is going to help the OP. Stating your side is one thing. Attacking someone else's opinion is an entirely different thing. So in your analogy a dog show judge must breed and show each and every single type of dog that he judges? Why not take a little of your own advice there since you seem to have such a vast knowledge of people also and learn to be civil. And as far as your vast knowledge and practicing what you preach.....well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd. The words "extreme" were used many times referring to the dogs of this specific breeder. The male they have listed as retired is roached in his retirement pictures playing in the water. That is extreme.


Says who? People who think they are extreme? Have you seen these dogs in person?

Where is this extreme roach behind the wither? Not saying I like/dislike the dog and maybe there are things about him that are more extreme but I personally don't belive roach to be one of them.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

That is not one of the dogs from the site in all due respect.









The roach in his back is apparent in his retirement picture. Not stacked and not done on purpose.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

Sorry didn't realize that was the photo from his pedigree I am now going on close to 30 hrs no sleep with 2 sick kids







It is starting to affect my sight I think. Haha I am wondering how old that pedigree picture is as the roach can get more pronounced over time and with SCH training I wouldn't be surprised. But also like you stated you can give your dog different back looks in stacked pictures. I am going by the photo of him in the water with his hind end tucked under and his back roached.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The dogs you commented on do not have roached backs.....as the retirement pic you claim. Someone better inform the people that own these "types" of dogs..(aged upward of 9-13yrs old)..that they will have physical spine & health issues before they drop dead of old age.....like a few of my own.
You gave your "expert" opinions about bloodlines & sports that you do not participate in...therefore you cannot claim it as 1st hand knowledge.
No one said you have NO knowledge to comment from....I simply contradicted your statements....on what I do absolutely know.
I do practice what I preach......no worries/clear conscience there.....vast knowledge?....well?...1st hand..YES.....and thats where I preach from. I don't preach/comment about things, I have no personal knowledge of....and if I'm wrong...I accept it.
I do however love how you picked sentences as needed, for your last post....clever! What an inspiring post you have there!
You know exactly what you actually stated and suggested....come on!...I just happened to be the one to call you on it.
Again, what a shame! You can't stand someone else knowing something..and NOT sharing your opinion.
All anyone has to do, is read ( really read) the beginning of the post from top to bottom.....truth be told.
Sincerely hope you have a good day!


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

another thing.......sad....I think, I could have had a respectable conversation with you....few things I wanted to know about American Bloodlines....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdSorry didn't realize that was the photo from his pedigree I am now going on close to 30 hrs no sleep with 2 sick kids
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly, a photo is just a photo. Hence why I asked if you've seen these dogs in person. Honestly I'd be very hesistant to make any judgments about a dog's structure based on a head-on photo of an older dog. I could take a photo of *this dog* so that she looks roached. I still do not see any extreme roaching on any of the dogs on the site. Again, not saying I'd buy these dogs, but still.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdSorry didn't realize that was the photo from his pedigree I am now going on close to 30 hrs no sleep with 2 sick kids
> ...


The main thing going against the male and the roach is that it is not just one photo or one pose that shows it.










His back is roached in this stacked photo. Although not as extreme as the retirement one. 

http://www.cbk9.com/atstud/images/Enkob.jpg

Also this one in his gait. 

http://www.cbk9.com/gallery/images/Dogs4.jpg

And also this one from behind.

http://www.cbk9.com/gallery/images/KayleyDogTrain_00.jpg

And this one of him sitting you can see the curve.

If it were only stacked pictures it would be one thing but it is another when there are many of it evident from different angles. 

Although I agree seeing them in person is best and seeing them in movement, that is not always an option and you can learn a lot by looking at many photos in different activities and stacked to get a good feel for what the dog looks like. An free standing shot will tell you a heck of a lot more than a stacked shot. As I stated earlier the females don't look as bad in the extreme slope as the male. 

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/48497-crippled-german-shepherd.html

This is a thread featuring none other the Xeph lol and her dog in various stacked photos to get different results. Compare those to the females on the site.










Accie from the breeders site should at the withers have a gentle slope down but her back slopes slightly up before down.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaThe dogs you commented on do not have roached backs.....as the retirement pic you claim. Someone better inform the people that own these "types" of dogs..(aged upward of 9-13yrs old)..that they will have physical spine & health issues before they drop dead of old age.....like a few of my own.
> You gave your "expert" opinions about bloodlines & sports that you do not participate in...therefore you cannot claim it as 1st hand knowledge.
> No one said you have NO knowledge to comment from....I simply contradicted your statements....on what I do absolutely know.
> I do practice what I preach......no worries/clear conscience there.....vast knowledge?....well?...1st hand..YES.....and thats where I preach from. I don't preach/comment about things, I have no personal knowledge of....and if I'm wrong...I accept it.
> ...


You do not have to participate to watch and observe shows and sport events and gain knowledge on a first hand level. Show me proof with your vast 1st hand knowledge that really is just your opinion that roach backed dogs do not have more health problems. As for having no 1st hand knowledge on German Show Lines....you don't think they ever come through rescue? You don't think they are ever brought to shows I attend? You don't think I have ever talked to breeders of the Lines about the differences in the Lines or the health problems in the GSD overall and their specific line compared to American Show Lines? Or that I have ever watched the judging on them or the movement in them in and out of the show ring? Well gooly geez I guess I musta been locked up in the house for the last 34 years. As stated before you problem is not that you have a different opinion only in the way you attack someone without giving any real proof on your knowledge or opinion. You would much rather attack someones opinion that simply state that you have a different opinion or experience with the Line in question. 

As far as picking and choosing feel free to go back and look. That was several posts in which I encouraged the OP to research the different lines for one that suited the temperament, activity, and look they wanted. You can whine all you want about your 1st hand knowledge but you still really haven't given any response besides I'm wrong, your right, it's not roached, and you have 1st hand knowledge. That helps no one in seeing what you are intending to say besides your intent to attack someone elses opinion or post. For all your "vast 1st hand knowledge" I would figure you would have a better opinion then what you have stated as just I am wrong.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

You state that these so called roached back dogs will suffer from spinal problems....where are all the roached back dogs?
I do know there are some....I see pics of them posted also...
But the dogs you constantly refer to are not roached backed dogs.
They may be normal withered, steeper short crouped...which will have an illusion of a slightly curved back....but they are not roached back.
The German Showline is supposed to have a firm back, slightly sloping & curving downward towards the croup....from the highest point of the wither. This is what is preferred.
A true roached back dog's highest point...is the middle of the back, raised above the wither and croup.
The retired dog you comment on....has a rounder topline than I would personally like....but he is not a roach back.
As for dogs having physical problems because they have a slight curve in their toplines....not true.
I have German Showlines....aged from young to 13+ years.
Maybe they aren't your specific cup of tea....thats perfectly fine.
But they have no spinal problems other than occasional arthritis in a joint or two because of age.....I would think thats normal.
The Showline dogs have been competeing in shows, sports and herding all thru the decades. Being structured as they are, they are at no more risk of spinal problems than any other bloodline.
I think a true roached back, is as horrible as a sway back, or a completely flat back.
I think length & lay of upper-arms & flat withers also play a factor in the way a dog's topline looks....just as steep croups.
Many of these physical traits can cause an illusion and create an non desired toplines.
Just as over angulation in some German Showlines and under angulation in Working Lines. I cannot comment on American Bloodlines....I have no hands on experience in breeding or showing them....but I do know that I find some handsome.
Because I actively/hands on show & train our dogs.....I know German Conformation....it's our job to know.
I could read tons of articles and see a few shows regarding American Lines, but it wouldn't give me the right to an educated opinion about them.....I don't work or show them.
I have not attacked you personally.....I commented on your beginning post. You made it a personal attack.
Just as you....I've been around awhile.
You are entitled to your opinion as anyone is......as I am.
The female dog posted in the URMA pic....actually has a topline that would do well .."stacked" in the German Conformation ring.
I cannot comment on how she would hold the transport thru her back....unless I saw her move myself.
Maybe best to leave you to your posts.....sometimes a person should just walk away....that whole dead horse thing comes to mind.
As for whining.....never.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

So what you are telling me is that everything that is judged at a show as being a roach back you do not consider a roach back?

http://www.royalair.org/pasttopresent.htm

http://www.myguardianangelshepherds.com/workingvsshow.html

http://aringsburgkennel.blogspot.com/2008/03/evolution-of-german-shepherd-dog-breed.html

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandard.htm

This is what is called a roach back in the Dallas Area Shows. It is illustrated on all of these pages as being a roach back and talking to the local judges they also call it a roach back. Why do you not call it a roach back? What is it that you call it?

http://www.gaardog.com/breed_types_&_standards.htm

Even here in much more detail it is called roach back.

Thank you for actually bring an opinion to the discussion instead of still attacking. 

Also do you agree or disagree that a roach back has less flexibility in it's spine? The movement in many dogs I see is with the curvature in their back is not as fluid and smooth. It is showing the flexibility being limited in gaits.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The dogs that are posted from the German Sieger Shows...are not roached back dogs, and I'm sure that the German SV, Judges & Breeders are pretty secure in what they consider excellent specimins of a breed they created. They'd get a kick from the article.
Everything evolves...whether we like what we see or not.
If one chooses to conform to a specific standard of breed....they need to know that specific standard.
NONE of the GSD dogs of the 40s look like the dogs of today....they're not supposed to. 
As for wolves and wild canines....we are talking about a GSD...a domestic canine.
You state that these dogs are being judged at shows as roach backed dogs? Where? Not in any German Conformation Show that I've ever attended. A couple of the dogs posted are VA dogs from Germany. I would proudly own. Never heard a Judge say...VA1 Roach Back so & so.....
I will say that rear over-angulation has become a problem....and the Judges & Breeders are trying to address it, just as over-sized has become an issue.
But most of the pictures I just quickly viewed...are not "roach backed" dogs......no matter what the writer calls them.
Whippets, Greyhounds, Bedlingtons....those are what I would consider roach backed style dogs....being that the middle of the back is the highest point normally. OMG....no offense to the breeders of those dogs.....I have not read the standard of each....so I don't know if it's correct structure. I'm only using them as a common visual.
Again...it is all in the eyes of the beholder.....if you don't like the style of any particular bloodline....you don't get involved with it.
My personal ideal dog is neither extreme nor lacking.
So no....the answer is no....they are not a bunch of roached back dogs.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Get a room already!


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaThe dogs that are posted from the German Sieger Shows...are not roached back dogs, and I'm sure that the German SV, Judges & Breeders are pretty secure in what they consider excellent specimins of a breed they created. They'd get a kick from the article.
> Everything evolves...whether we like what we see or not.
> If one chooses to conform to a specific standard of breed....they need to know that specific standard.
> NONE of the GSD dogs of the 40s look like the dogs of today....they're not supposed to.
> ...


But with many of the....curved back I guess is what you call them it causes the pelvis to tilt and open up the hip joints. Some of course more extreme than the others. The opening of the hip joints with the titled pelvis breeders do to the breeding style to curve the back is what makes the hip dysplasia more prone. Would you agree that a titled pelvis dog that is being used in any sport that jumps or has impact to the back legs is more at risk for hip problems and injuries? It is along the same principal as not letting the dog jump or do high impact sports when still immature as to not damage the developing hips. 

http://www.workingdogs.com/standard_fci.htm

http://www.ppkgermanshepherds.com/FCI%20STANDARD%20No%20166.htm

The FCI Standard has changed over the years and it should not have. Nothing in the standard calls for a curvature of the back in a GSD. The GSDs from the 1940s were changed for what reasons? The closest dogs to the true standard are the working line German Shepherds. The only reasoning to change or modify their interpretation of the GSD standard was for looks. American Show Lines that breed for the extremely steep slope in the back and croup are not doing the breed a bit of good either. All three of mine have a straighter back. I hope you know that doesn't mean board straight. Just that from the withers to the croup they have a slight angle and a slight angle in the croup. Not the ski slope look that for some reason has become a part of the American Show Lines which opens up a whole host of problems in the hip and knee area.

My preferred GSD by looks is the Working Line. The stable, muscular, body and back. The problem I have with Working Lines is they have that insane drive that does not fit the lifestyle of most SAHMs.







Taking care of kids and my poor geriatric female GSD does not allow the necessary time to actively train and teach a dog and keep it active to the level it would be happiest at. 

The shows I go to are the Dallas area, KC shows hosted by the AKC. The judges do call the curve a roach back. There is no definition that lists a roach back as being at the center point of the dog or the middle of the back. A roach back is only simply defined as a curved spine regardless of the starting, ending, or severity. 

I think that one of the main problems is that different lines are taking the FCI Standard to mean what ever they feel it means instead of what the standard was meant for. That is what has caused the great division in the breed as a whole. And as you can see in German Show Lines and I can see in American Show Lines it is going so far as to hurt the breed and push the standard to the point that the judges are starting to push back. Anyways I have to go sit diligently by my DDB bitches dam as she is due to have her litter any time now. I am hoping for tonight. 

If you want to see a breed standard that is totally different look at the DDB. 

http://www.heavenlyacresbordeaux.com/breed_standard.htm

While the GSD's power comes from the back end the DDB has all the power in the front.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

SchH creates roached backs, working lines have insane drive incompatible with normal life, the health of the spine is based on show ring gait... Don't you love internet experts throwing links at you, quoting articles and frowning upon real life first hand experience?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Back in day, they never even considered the "hip issues"...either a dog was able to perform it's tasks...or it was not. No one will ever trully know what dogs had HD.
When the SV started using the system of grading hips, all GSD were required to certify for breeding rights. Now they use a ZW system to monitor the the percentage of HD probability....higher the ZW, the higher the possibility of chance in some breedings.
Many WL & SL dogs, have low ZW ratings. So the "curved, angled" look of the SL dogs does not influence their ZW ratings. HD does.
You will see higher ZW numbers on many dogs that are extremely used for breeding.....odds are, more puppies....more chances they must be certified....thus more chances of proven HD.
There are many beautifully structured German Working line dogs that easily V rate in conformation......but again, German Standard.
BTW....LOVE the DDBs. Good luck on the litter!


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07SchH creates roached backs, working lines have insane drive incompatible with normal life, the health of the spine is based on show ring gait... Don't you love internet experts throwing links at you, quoting articles and frowning upon real life first hand experience?


Hmmm okay if you are gonna jump on the bashing also make sure you quote right. Where was it stated again that SCH creates roach backs? Sorry don't see that anywhere.....
Next incompatible drive for normal life.....nope also not there not a good match for a first time GSD owner and for a pet family that will not take it to activities and exercise it....yep that is there. Health of the spine based on show room gait....? What? No health of spine is based on the curvature of the spine and the pelvis. Wow comprehend much or just read what you want?


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaBack in day, they never even considered the "hip issues"...either a dog was able to perform it's tasks...or it was not. No one will ever trully know what dogs had HD.
> When the SV started using the system of grading hips, all GSD were required to certify for breeding rights. Now they use a ZW system to monitor the the percentage of HD probability....higher the ZW, the higher the possibility of chance in some breedings.
> Many WL & SL dogs, have low ZW ratings. So the "curved, angled" look of the SL dogs does not influence their ZW ratings. HD does.
> You will see higher ZW numbers on many dogs that are extremely used for breeding.....odds are, more puppies....more chances they must be certified....thus more chances of proven HD.
> ...


The German Lines get tested for hips a lot more often do they not? Do you see a fluctuation in the ratings with age or more work or strenuous activity?

Wow I really gotta run. LOL! I'll check back later.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

ok...now you threw a tough question at me....
Honestly, I would have to say...all of the above.
Had an imported male, lived his life outdoors in a kennel in Germany.
He continually "circled" in MY outside runs...so I'm sure he didn't help his joints any. But I decided to certify his ELBOWS at 5 1/2 yrs old...they passed as "fast normal"....as the SV rep, stated to me..."min minus normal"....so age?...maybe..... continual aggravated movement?...maybe.....
I honestly think ALL can & will play a factor.....this is only my opinion.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd
> Hmmm okay if you are gonna jump on the bashing also make sure you quote right. Where was it stated again that SCH creates roach backs? Sorry don't see that anywhere.....
> Next incompatible drive for normal life.....nope also not there not a good match for a first time GSD owner and for a pet family that will not take it to activities and exercise it....yep that is there. Health of the spine based on show room gait....? What? No health of spine is based on the curvature of the spine and the pelvis. Wow comprehend much or just read what you want?


LOL, Tri-shepherd, I'm not quoting, I'm abstracting from your posts (would be nice if you did the same with your sources instead of copy-pasting all those links here). Go ahead and find your words yourself: '...as the roach can get more pronounced over time and with SCH training...' LOL

Also you showed through your posts that you base your observations and conclusions re dogs' back, movement, flexibility, temps etc on pictures and dog shows, hence my comment about show ring. Wait, here's a quote: 'You do not have to participate to watch and observe shows and sport events and gain knowledge on a first hand level.' 

I'm not bashing, I'm just amused with your belief-fueled enthusiasm and the image of working lines that you so generously share here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tri-shepherd, you put up a lot of beautiful dogs, all German showlines. None of them looked roached in my opinion. I have seen some roaches, and while I am a German Showline enthusiast, the true roach is worrysome.

Still, this website does not look extreme in roach or angulation in my opinion. 

The other thing that you mentioned about a dog for a pet home was too much drive as they are working lines. 

They are NOT working lines (whether it is true about too much drive in WL for a pet home is material for another thread).

It is a misconception when you see dogs schutzhund titled or working the sleeve that they are WL dogs. It is a misconception. Showline dogs can and do schutzhund as well. If I wanted to do schutzhund, I would chose a GSL dog. If I wanted to get a high in trial at a schutzhund competition, I would chose a WL dog. I have never owned a WL dog, but my guess is that they are engineered better (physical and mentally)for schutzhund trials.

I am not puttin any superiority on WL dogs on the whole. I think they have a place where they excel more than other shepherds, and other shepherds excel in other areas. But I digress.

This looks like a decent breeder with good dogs, and if the OP is clear about what he is hoping for, I expect they can find him a nice match. 

As for hip and back problems, it is my understanding that they are in all lines, WL, ASL, and GSL. It would be interesting to see some numbers corresponding to the various types of GSD and the percentage of hip and back problems with relation to their populations. While I do not believe any such data exists, I would hope that the specialized breeding for specific sport or show does not increase the liklihood, and I would guess that the possibility of having problems would increase in breeding programs that are not doing health screenings or trying to match dogs up for correct stucture.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherd
> ...


Ah but if the roach back already existed then how could I be claiming that caused it? No tht statement says that with an already roached back the stress on the spine of jumping landing lunging ect can have an impact on it. And also is this not on German Show Lines and not Working Lines? Are you saying that there is no knowledge to be gain in attending dog shows, watching judging, and talking to and learning from the breeders at the shows? Now that's pretty ridiculous IMHO.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerTri-shepherd, you put up a lot of beautiful dogs, all German showlines. None of them looked roached in my opinion. I have seen some roaches, and while I am a German Showline enthusiast, the true roach is worrysome.
> 
> Still, this website does not look extreme in roach or angulation in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Would you post a picture of what you believe roached is? The opinion is obviously going to differ from person to person. The main thing on the male on this site is his free standing pictures where you can visibly seen the tilted in pelvis of the dog. That is not natural for any dog. I never stated that these were Working Lines or that their drive made them unsuitable for a pet home. Just that I don't feel this particular line is best suited in a pet home. Of course there are exceptions all the time. A Working Line breeder may have 1 dog a litter that has less drive and is better suited for a non-Working or less intense Working Home. This particular breeder is stressing SCH training in their dogs. They will tend to have a little more drive in them then just one of German Show Lines that is doing the minimum to pass SCH so that the dog can be bred. 

The info on the health comes from medical analysis on the structure of the dogs, veterinary advice on specific German Show Line dogs, and talking to a few American Show Line and German Show Line breeders and the troubles health wise they have in their kennels and have seen in other kennels. You can imagine that both sides have plenty to say about the other and are more tight lipped about their own lines and the problems in them. I guess the best answer you can get about the health affects on the roach back, sloped back, and tilted pelvis on the health of the animal and the breed is to look at the information that has come out from the BBC with Pedigree Dogs Exposed, and the judges and UK Kennel Club in restating the breed standard and refusing to allow some examples of the breed to be in shows or be judged. 

If the different lines of GSD would work together instead of against each other they could come up with a really comprehensive database and seriously gain some knowledge on what effects certain aspects of their program has on the dog. This will never happen though as Show Lines breed for looks as their primary focus and Working Lines breed for soundness, stucture, health, and temperament as their focus. 

A good example is the DDB Society. There is no split in the breed the show dog is the same standard as the working dog. They both are breed for the same strength, structure, and temperament. Every couple of years members of the DDB Society report in any dogs that have passed away. The information includes such things as age, cause of death, color, male or female, ect. They also have a database of Penn Hipp and OFA health testing of members including heart, thyroid, eyes, hips, and elbows at a minimum. This is a wealth of information for the breeder and helps many breeders look at the health of the breed as a whole. IMHO the Germans Shepherd lines could all learn a thing or two from a database such as this. 

To bury our heads and think the "breeders" that participate in sports or shows are not doing anything that may harm the dog or the breed would be silly. I can point out many more "breeders" that are breeding structurally wrong or HD dogs than I can ones that aren't. It is the sad truth.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdAre you saying that there is no knowledge to be gain in attending dog shows, watching judging, and talking to and learning from the breeders at the shows? Now that's pretty ridiculous IMHO.


 Yes, I'm saying exactly this ridiculous thing: there is no knowledge to be gained about dogs without putting everything what you hear and see into practice and drawing your own conclusions based on your own practical experience. Otherwise how would you even know the difference between sound advice and opinion worth listening to vs BS? What are your criteria?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I personally do think that breeding for sport and breeding for show is detrimental to the breed. The reason is the purpose of the breeding program in those areas,(to win shows and to win trials). It should have everything to do with breeding for working dogs,(can do real work), and it takes sound health, and good structure, and good temperament , for a dog to do the most arduous tasks. Whether you breed for show or sport, you know you are "off base" when the product you are creating is decreasing in its use in the real work or real world. There have been periods of time when the breed "consistently" produced real working dogs from the top shows and the top trials. These shows/trials have gone to extremes in some aspects of what they are looking for and it has skewed the breeds ability to seamlessly transfer to working venues consistently!! Consistently is the operative word as people from both camps of high end show/trials, try to take exceptions to justify the majority. Then they use the exceptions to make proclamations that say "Yes they can". Welllll yes the exceptios can but what about the ordinary dog of this lineage....will they do arduous work if trained. I submit not and its because of the extremes we are seeking in those worlds. 
So people seeking a good dog has to be careful and have knowledge or good advice from people who have knowledge, because a lot of the socalled "reputable" breeders are breeding dogs that only their exceptions will live true to the GS legacy. And as I say this goes for top show and top sport. JMO


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Notice im my post I said nothing about workinglines or showlines...people who think in those terms are a BIG part of the problem. Why??? because they usually stay within that world or sphere when they breed. As opposed to breeding to whatever will help improve your stock so that it happens to have good working ability. Out of this thinking if you breed a dog with good conformation...then show it, if you breed a dog that is a little softer...then seek family or service home, if you breed a dog that is more aggressive or hyper...seek working or Law Enforcement setting. But you can't breed for all the puppies to specifically be show or sport as a primary goal...many so called experts still don't get this!! Read your Word and Picture book and grasp!! This is time tested by the founders and it still produces a better dog "consistently"..JMO


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Clifton,
You and I have had this conversation in the past and on (other boards?....you know, I agree on much about what has happened to this breed. Workability for a working breed is 1st & foremost.
We have dogs in the "real world"... as you post....
This debate on what is what, can go on and on......
My point is always simple....teach & preach what you actually know....and then learn more!
Thats one reason....I enjoy most of your posts.
Robin


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

And yes!......I noticed you didn't make it a Showline vs Working line thing!
My husband trains many dogs weekly for several people, although he WILL do the very best for any person's dog......it irritates him beyond imagination, when a dog of his own breeding "doesn't measure up"....no one is harder on our breedings than we are.We will not promote and put in the work for our breeding program, on a dog that isn't both strong in temperment & structurely sound.
We cannot "turn back" the hands of time, to what the GSD was originally....but we can go forward, and strive to once again create was it is supposed to be......
JMO
Robin


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Robin, your points are well taken!!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:Spondylosis and Hip Dysplasia are only two of the possible things that are more likely with an extremely sloped back.
> ...


I did not read the whole thread but I had to add to this. 

My Kayos is American showlines adn has severe HD, she has had one hip replaced. Her angulation and slope is very moderate.

When doing her PennHip xrays years ago I had aconveration with the orthopedic vet about HD, spine problems and angulation and structure in GSD's. 

She said there was NO relation between the 2. HD was a polygenic disorder that had absolutely no relation to angulation in the hock.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> She said there was NO relation between the 2. HD was a polygenic disorder that had absolutely no relation to angulation in the hock.


Just last night I was at training club when someone who happens to be one of if not the world's finest expert in veterinary radiology (hips, elbows, did research that PennHIP was based on, on OFA panel, etc) handed out books that examine genetic issues and selective breeding. In the first few pages it explains polygenic traits and then the first issue it examines in detail is hip dysplasia:



> Quote: Hip dysplasia is currently accepted to be an inherited disease caused by the interaction of many genes (polygenic).
> 
> [...]
> 
> HD cannot be diagnosed by observing how an animal moves, acts, lies down, etc.


It talks about German Shepherds as well, but never mentions anything along the lines of roaching, extreme angulation, or steep croups causing hip dysplasia.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't know why topics from another board are being brought over here, but the point of that post was about American showlines that can be made to look exaggerated, not German dogs with roachy/curved toplines (I do think some people need to accept that the term "roach" now means anything that has a hump for a back, not "mid point of back is higher than wither, JMO).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Extreme angulation or roach back...neither is correct so what's the point??


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think she's trying to say that "any" curve/slope in the topline is a roach looking back.....which is the way 99 % of the Top German Showline dogs look.....angulation or not.
Just as I would think that any dog, thats long & having the topline of an "ironing board" is in-correct.
Depends on who's eyes you're seeing with....
Extreme anything is wrong....structure or temperment.
Most American enthusiasts see German SL as "roached" backs....
Most German SL enthusiasts see American SL as "long, crippled & weak" backed ...
AND Most German WL enthusiasts dislike (either) because of their particular structures and temperments.
Oh...did I mention....no one wants to be wrong?!
Easily fixed!......stay away from the venues and bloodlines of the dogs you dislike!
These topics ALWAYS cause tension.
And this original topic was concerning a particular breeder and puppy.........


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I try to not let like/dislike enter into breeding decisions as far as my personal preference is concerned. I see a black and tan dog and he has the phenotype and genotype that will improve what I am lacking and not introduce any concentrated undesirables....then I use the dog. Color means nothing. I see an extremely angulated dog with the kind of speed, quickness, and jumping ability the breed should possess...then I use it. I see a dog with fair hips but a family history of strong hips and he/she has want I need...I use it. I see a dog with soft temperament....I don't use it regardless....its too hard to get out of stock and if it is a female it doesn't give the puppies the type of imprinting they need from birth to 8 weeks when they leave.
So for the original OP, if you don't have good knowledge of lines and you can go see the parents of your puppy...do it by all means. Because a lot of dogs that have titles and stack real well, do not have the temperament we "expect' with a German Shepherd.


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