# 9 month GSD keeps attacking our other 2 dogs



## Christy512 (Mar 9, 2016)

We have an 11 year old chocolate lab Hershey, a 2 1/2 year old GSD Sierra and a 9 month GSD Max. All three have gotten along until about a month or two ago. Sierra has always given in to Hershey and loves to play with Max. Hershey ignores Sierra, will play with Max
occasionally, but has always let him know when she is done. The dynamics seemed fine, but recently Max challenging Hershey and has started charging Sierra, getting right up to her face and not letting her come up the steps, come over to see me, to go outside, etc. They still love to play with each other, but they have already gotten into a couple of fights. Sierra usually cowers and goes to another room. Max has gone to puppy socialization class, Basic 1 and is signed up for Basic 2, and we continue to work on his obedience training at home. Sierra has had Basic 1, one on one with a trainer to build her confidence and is currently in an entry level agility. It has gotten to the point where (when not playing) Sierra goes and lays in another room and won't come into the room with Max. Sierra used to lay with us, but now seems afraid to come by us with Max around. I'm hoping continued training for both will help, but I sure am ready for other suggestions.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Max appears to be running your household. This is about the time a confident dog will start challenging the pack structure. This is normal behavior. The problem, sorry, is you. You are letting him get away with this. Up your leadership skills big time. Max looses privileges for this behavior. He doesn't get the prize.. you.... or anything else when he behaves this way. Up obedience training and if he doesn't comply you have to exert leadership in no uncertain terms. If this is a mystery to you. Find a good trainer for one on one in a multiple dog household.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Very important to notice what is the position of the tail? The ears, eyes and tail will tell the story. Up that training, I just went through this and management with traing is key.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Very important to notice what is the position of the tail? The ears, eyes and tail will tell the story. Up that training, I just went through this and management with traing is key.


Is the tail up (even if wagging) an indicator of trouble? I think low tail wagging is a positive?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Christy512 said:


> We have an 11 year old chocolate lab Hershey, a 2 1/2 year old GSD Sierra and a 9 month GSD Max. All three have gotten along until about a month or two ago. Sierra has always given in to Hershey and loves to play with Max. Hershey ignores Sierra, will play with Max
> occasionally, but has always let him know when she is done. The dynamics seemed fine, but recently Max challenging Hershey and has started charging Sierra, getting right up to her face and not letting her come up the steps, come over to see me, to go outside, etc. They still love to play with each other, but they have already gotten into a couple of fights. Sierra usually cowers and goes to another room. Max has gone to puppy socialization class, Basic 1 and is signed up for Basic 2, and we continue to work on his obedience training at home. Sierra has had Basic 1, one on one with a trainer to build her confidence and is currently in an entry level agility. It has gotten to the point where (when not playing) Sierra goes and lays in another room and won't come into the room with Max. Sierra used to lay with us, but now seems afraid to come by us with Max around. I'm hoping continued training for both will help, but I sure am ready for other suggestions.


Yesss ... ironically enough ... I was just asked about the *"old" my dog changed thing!" *

Getting it wrong looks like this:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/624274-petting-my-dog.html#post7709290

I can pretty much guarantee you that the path you are on is going to lead to "stitches" for "someone" Dog or Human?? 

And Basic 1 and Basis 2?? Are "not" going to fix this and neither will "hoping it gets better!" If "whoever" you are working with is "aware" of "this" situation and they have not recommended "any" changes in household "management" with these dogs??? Then they don't have a clue! 

You need to make some changes in how you manage these dogs and those changes would look pretty much like this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7607634-post41.html

Or ... you can keep doing what you're doing and "hope" it works out?? "Hoping it gets better did not work out to well for me?? 

As always ask questions and Welcome aboard ... sorry it's a bumpy ride so far.


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## Christy512 (Mar 9, 2016)

Thanks for the responses. Believe me, I am blaming me. I know he needs the training and I need to display leadership, but honestly, other than practicing his obedience training, I don't know how. I make him sit to go outside, and then I go first. He has to sit while I get his food, and we've been practicing all the other basics (sit, stay, down, come, etc.) When he stops Sierra, his tail is up, not wagging, ears and eyes alert. He doesn't bite or growl, just blocks her. The strange part of all of this is when they are playing in the yard. We have 2 acres fenced and they chase and play with each other. But usually it's Sierra chasing him and rolling him. When I throw the ball for them, if Max comes near hers, she growls and stands her ground and Max backs off. I just can't figure out the dynamics.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Pretend he is a child. Use your voice - when he postures - tell him NO loudly and firmly, Physically MOVE him when he postures. Tell him NOT ACCEPTABLE. Crate him for periods. Feed in crate and leave him there for an hour. If Sierra is in the room with you and he postures or warns her - again CORRECT him. Put a 1 foot lead on his collar and let it drag so you can get ahold of him. Take over the leadership of all interactions between them. Now is better than later. It is unusual for a male to challenge a female, but step up and make the group dynamics run according to your rules, not the pups.


Lee


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Moriah said:


> Is the tail up (even if wagging) an indicator of trouble? I think low tail wagging is a positive?


Up and curled is trouble


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

DutchKarin said:


> Max appears to be running your household. This is about the time a confident dog will start challenging the pack structure. This is normal behavior. The problem, sorry, is you. You are letting him get away with this. Up your leadership skills big time. Max looses privileges for this behavior. He doesn't get the prize.. you.... or anything else when he behaves this way. Up obedience training and if he doesn't comply you have to exert leadership in no uncertain terms. If this is a mystery to you. Find a good trainer for one on one in a multiple dog household.


:thumbup: 

After one on one training to increase Sierra's confidence, you are really risking undoing all your hard work, and it certainly is not fair for your old dog to be subjected to your young, strong dog challenging her. 

Also, although I did not read Chip's links, he has been known to impart some pearls of wisdom along the way as to what you can do _now_ to start improving the situation at home and how to do it.

I am not sure of the size disparity between your dogs, or how rough they play, but from what you are posting, I would be a bit concerned in that area as well. I would stop any and all rough play, especially if their is a size difference. If allowed to continue, it can escalate to something ugly, and at the very least, can lead to injuries to the smaller, more passive, or older dog.

Of course, Wolfstraum always has good advice to offer.


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## Christy512 (Mar 9, 2016)

Dogs are all the same size. I have been telling him no and then using my body to push him back. Usually at that point he sits and looks up at me waiting. I keep him at sit and then release him and he goes and lays down. I didn't think of adding a drag lead, but I think that will help. We purposely got a male because our vet told us they would get along better than another female. I will try taking them out to play separately so they can't rough-house. Someone had told me I should rehome, but that's not an option. I feel they are family and sometimes families just need some extra help. Definitely time for a lot more work, but at least I feel like this can still be fixed. Thank you for all the suggestions.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You are the one needing some extra help. Hire a trainer to come to the house to observe the dynamics. A class in itself somewhere else is less effective. 
Just a "NO" won't do it for these personalities. They need consequences. At the first 'look' (stare), you tell him, OOPS and remove him. Teach him the down stay to enforce this. Get and read (!!) the book "Feeling Outnumbered?" by McConnell.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Correcting this problem has nothing to do with obedience training. Any trainer who tells you that more obedience classes will fix the problems between dogs in your house is wrong. You can have a top Ring III dog with all kinds of training and titles act like a bully and pick fights in the house. 

You need to directly address the behavior you do not want if it is not going to continue, and at a high enough level that this behavior is very unlikely to persist. That means a high level correction. It does not mean time out, or telling the dog to sit, or taking him to more obedience classes. 

It's pretty simple but it's not easy to do. The stronger and clearer a single correction is, the less likely you'll have to repeat it. The dog needs to realize picking fights and challenging the other dogs leads to very bad things. 

If you can't do this, you're probably going to have issues with these two dogs the rest of their lives. You can manage and separate but who wants to live like that, especially if they enjoy playing outside together.

Posturing, fighting, bullying, just can not happen. It doesn't matter what position the dog's tail is in, or ears, or anything else, it matters that he is clearly bullying and challenging his "sister" or the older dog. Not allowed, not ever. You need to make that very very clear to him. 

I am not advocating abusive correction. But realize that if you don't step up and correct the younger dog, a dog fight could lead to severe injury to you and your dogs. It's not to be taken lightly. 

Obedience training can help in that you can tell a dog to down at a distance, for example, if is he going at a dog, but it won't address the root of the problem.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Since my situation was similar I can tell you don't ever grab the younger dogs collar, this will amp him up. You have to stay on top of it and if he so much as glances the other dogs way, intervene. I have found its much more difficult to get that focus back on you with a stronger willed dog. I no longer allow any play that can turn things ugly quick, which in my case is no play at all between the two males. They are fine if there is no interaction. As the younger walks past the older I tell him leave it before he gets any stupid thoughts and he has been. I've been firmer and more no nonsense and that makes a difference too. When I say up the training I mean focus, leave its, etc. master voice control with these commands and it helps in the management.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Correcting this problem has nothing to do with obedience training. Any trainer who tells you that more obedience classes will fix the problems between dogs in your house is wrong. You can have a top Ring III dog with all kinds of training and titles act like a bully and pick fights in the house.
> 
> You need to directly address the behavior you do not want if it is not going to continue, and at a high enough level that this behavior is very unlikely to persist. That means a high level correction. It does not mean time out, or telling the dog to sit, or taking him to more obedience classes.
> 
> ...


Good advice, especially to address the bullying and bad behavior.

One has to bear in mind that there also may be a power shift happening here. Sometimes it is better to aid and abet the power shift, while addressing the bullying and bad behavior, and have peace, than to get into an endless struggle of trying to force the most dominant dog into a submissive position. The older dogs may not be the most dominant, and may not want to be, it isn't fair to them either to force them into that position and try to maintain them in a position that they don't want. It can be very stressful to all involved.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Correcting this problem has nothing to do with obedience training. Any trainer who tells you that more obedience classes will fix the problems between dogs in your house is wrong. You can have a top Ring III dog with all kinds of training and titles act like a bully and pick fights in the house.
> 
> You need to directly address the behavior you do not want if it is not going to continue, and at a high enough level that this behavior is very unlikely to persist. That means a high level correction. It does not mean time out, or telling the dog to sit, or taking him to more obedience classes.
> 
> ...


I'm interested in what kind of correction you are talking about? Other then touching the dog because as I stated this means can amp the dog up and maybe even cause the dog to redirect if it's a dog that is super focused. Mine never redirected on me, but I could see that happening. I can say for sure that physically grabbing the dog once it's in this state is a no-no and will most likely make the dog more agitated.


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> Pretend he is a child. Use your voice - when he postures - tell him NO loudly and firmly, Physically MOVE him when he postures. Tell him NOT ACCEPTABLE. Crate him for periods. Feed in crate and leave him there for an hour. If Sierra is in the room with you and he postures or warns her - again CORRECT him. Put a 1 foot lead on his collar and let it drag so you can get ahold of him. Take over the leadership of all interactions between them. Now is better than later. It is unusual for a male to challenge a female, but step up and make the group dynamics run according to your rules, not the pups.
> 
> 
> Lee



Couldn't say it better.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Correcting this problem has nothing to do with obedience training. Any trainer who tells you that more obedience classes will fix the problems between dogs in your house is wrong. You can have a top Ring III dog with all kinds of training and titles act like a bully and pick fights in the house.
> 
> You need to directly address the behavior you do not want if it is not going to continue, and at a high enough level that this behavior is very unlikely to persist. That means a high level correction. It does not mean time out, or telling the dog to sit, or taking him to more obedience classes.
> 
> ...


Hmmm sounds like* "been there done that and got it right!"
*

And yep while all the pictures of the dog "postering" are useful ... I tend to think they are more "applicable "for rescue work and a better understanding of dogs, in general.

Far as I'm considered if you get or rather "allow" the "problem" dogs close enough to where you need to look for that ... "you've" already screwed up! 

And yes for it to stop, its gonna take a high level of "correction" to send a "Crystal Clear" message that "this" will not happen!

But that would be part two, part one would be management! And I pretty much spelled it out (lessons form the Pro's) and rehab starts with "Place!" 

That is where the "Pro's" that rehab fighting biting dogs and dog killers "Start" but if some people "still" want to conflate "Stay" which usually last what 5 minutes if that, with "Place" which is a two hour window "minum" good luck to them.

If they can't get past that ... then yeah find a "Pro" and again ... "good luck with that" without help.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yup, Chip. Exactly. 

For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training. It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything. 

The correction needs to happen ideally when the dog is thinking about being aggressive or bullying, and prior to committing.

Channel your version of "Red Ross".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QmiTbzptQs But joking aside...

You need to not be afraid of the dogs, you need to feel powerful and in control. You need to be in control of yourself, and "clearheaded". Otherwise don't even attempt it.

Chip- anything to add? I know this is vague.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Yup, Chip. Exactly.
> 
> For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training. It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything.
> 
> ...


It's the same results if you catch the dog before hand. There is no good timing. If your basing it on the dog looking and not reacting, the dog has already switched to a focused mode that can be difficult to break. The place command is not foolproof either. 

The sterner voice and standing over the dog is effective but touching at any time--I would not recommend. If the dog has a prong and leash on, the correction can be effective too.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Yup, Chip. Exactly.
> 
> For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training. It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice again. This is key.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Yup, Chip. Exactly.
> 
> For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training. It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything.
> 
> ...


 Gotta ponder a bit but the collar grabbing, obviously bad if it's a problem dog use a drag leash! I chose the *"I dare you to approach" *when I saw/allowed Rocky to posture!! :mad

Rocky had his head over Gunther's shoulder! I'm fast but Rocky was faster!! I got the first stitches in my life in that one, breaking them up and a permanently bent little finger as a reminder! 

So chalk the *"I dare you to try it thing" *... as a hard "NO!" Good times , Good times ....

Delievery a "proper message" "may" take a "Pro" but "better and proper management" is in everybody's wheelhouse., if you know where the dog is indoors Crate or Place he can't start trouble!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> It's the same results if you catch the dog before hand. There is no good timing. If your basing it on the dog looking and not reacting, the dog has already switched to a focused mode that can be difficult to break. The place command is not foolproof either.
> 
> The sterner voice and standing over the dog is effective but touching at any time--I would not recommend. If the dog has a prong and leash on, the correction can be effective too.


"The Place Command" is a "part" of the rehab process not the "whole" of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> "The Place Command" is a "part" of the rehab process not the "whole" of it.


I would personally not trust the place command at all with dogs that have had previous issues. Apollo knows stay, he knows go to your spot, but I can bet a million dollars of Batman was out and about it would not last. I used to think Robyn was fast but she has nothing on Apollo, that dog is like lightning. If he broke the place command I wouldn't have time to save Batman, this is a fact. 

I worked on voice commands and voice control, I've noticed that he is now hearing me when I say leave it, I do have to use a very firm mean voice, but the point gets across. Apollo was the last dog to get that, but he is the youngest. It did take longer for him to understand I meant business. It's a beautiful relationship as long as he sees things my way


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Hope I am not redundant, I didn't read everyone's posts. I think time outs are a great consequence for behavior like this. The bully dog gets escorted to social isolation while he is in the act of doing bad behavior. Crate him, put him in a room alone ect. 

Also wanted to say that dynamics can totally change depending on inside vs outside, toy vs no toy. My male/female pair for years were like this: outside, she was faster, nastier, so ball crazy she would kill him if he looked at her ball. Inside, he is bigger and more into food than her and could steal her dinner and she would slink off. (I never allowed ANY of that, but point is they were totally different towards each other depending on circumetances and it was not consistent who had the upper hand

I think it is more important that you commit to taking control and zero tolerance to bullying than how you do it. Dogs have an incredible ability to comprehend our feeble attempts at cross species communication. 

For my super bully bitch I did also use an e collar so I could have a little more physical control of her when out in a group. She also does not play with her special toys unless she and I are alone. Obviously get educated and get a trainer if you want to use an e collar.

In my opinion, the more dogs you have, the more you have to tell them how to act socially with each other...they will take advantage of each other and can develop dysfunctional and even "abusive" relationships with each other where one is targeting a weaker one or so on. I don't tolerate a dog mistreating another dog in any way (I have a 16 year old pomeranian and an 8 month old gsd who is a 77lb wrecking ball lol)

You'll get it, you see there is a problem, just keep trying stuff out until you find something that works, you can have harmony, this doesn't sound severe enough to be thinking rehome to me. It sounds like you have just identified the problem and haven't had a chance to really fix it....now's your chance!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Also maybe preemptively put Max away for awhile and have some quality time with the one who is being shunned? 

Progressively let him back out, but maybe baby gate him one room over so he can see the family but can't intimidate the other one. Let everyone see that HE is the one being controlled now. Give him a chance loose with family but time out for the merest hint of intimidation to other dogs. 

Right now my 8 mo old is obsessed with trying to bodyslam my 9 y/o. A stern no while he is incoming will often stop him, if he does veer off I will quickly reward for that. Frequently I will have her walk riight with me because it is easy to protect her that way. When he comes toward her I step in front of her and give him the evil eye. I knows better than to mess with me. His attempted slams have decreased day by day, he is getting the message, I just won't allow it. She is way too old for that crap, it hurts her. He isn't being mean spirited but it doesn't matter, he hurts her and it isn't good playing style anyway. I do find that he is way less interested in shenanigans like this if I have spent some one on one time with him training and chucked a few balls to take the edge off, maybe this would help your guy?

All dogs under my roof, boarders or not, know if they come to me and get behind me it is a universal request for assistance because someone is pestering them and I will handle it.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> Correcting this problem has nothing to do with obedience training. Any trainer who tells you that more obedience classes will fix the problems between dogs in your house is wrong. You can have a top Ring III dog with all kinds of training and titles act like a bully and pick fights in the house.
> 
> You need to directly address the behavior you do not want if it is not going to continue, and at a high enough level that this behavior is very unlikely to persist. That means a high level correction. It does not mean time out, or telling the dog to sit, or taking him to more obedience classes.
> 
> ...


Specifically, what type of "strong correction" should be used? Many of us have similar problems and would like to know exactly what to do. Thanks!


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> Yup, Chip. Exactly.
> 
> For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training. It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything.
> 
> ...


Yes, but what specifically should this strong correction be?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would just calmly isolate him or put him on a down stay. Harsh corrections, E collars etc, make the situation more tense. At this point I would keep him leashed with you and up your leadership. He has gotten away with too much already. Also double check if the other dogs are not challenging him. A subtle look can be enough and if he reacts he is the bad guy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Yup, Chip. Exactly.
> 
> For correction, it needs to be timed right. Grabbing the collar once the dog is committed to a fight or attack isn't good timing. In fact it could amp the dog up more. Kind of like a tie back in protection training.


 Oh Snap ... I just got that! Leash barrier aggression! 



Muskeg said:


> It can be a stop-gap to stop a dog but probably won't teach them anything.


 Most likely true.



Muskeg said:


> The correction needs to happen ideally when the dog is thinking about being aggressive or bullying, and prior to committing.


 Yes, no doubt and better management and control of conditions, can put an owner in a position to deliver a "correction." The "typical" "crap happens" approach that "Free Roaming" in the house allows. ... does not! 

But by and large for most "pet" owners that have not had this happen ... "Stunned, Disbelief " is the initial reaction??? And when they "finally" look for answer "silence" or "crap that won't work" is what they "typically find."





Muskeg said:


> Channel your version of "Red Ross".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QmiTbzptQs But joking aside...


 Starting to get a back up of stuff to see. But I'll get to it. 



Muskeg said:


> You need to not be afraid of the dogs, you need to feel powerful and in control. You need to be in control of yourself, and *"clearheaded".* Otherwise don't even attempt it.


 Yep but by and large for most "pet" owners that have not had this happen ... "Stunned, Disbelief " is the initial reaction??? 

For me I'd been facing down sigh ...various "Pit's" and there derivatives since 2000 .When a 90 lbs monster came thur a screen door behind me on a walk (Sigh ...near home)! I heard people screaming and the sound of the door, ripping?? The dog was making a bee line for my "Puppy!" I swung Stewie behind me and faced the dog down! The dog was confused as "I' was not his target?? The owner scooped the rouge Pit up and back inside they went.

There have been more since then, still that was nothing compared to the Ferocity "Rocky" OS WL GSD unleashed on Gunther that first time!! I'd not seen anything like it??? I never got to the "Clearheaded" part with them. 

Still post analysis discovery is what I've done every since and yes you pretty much nailed it! 

But I like to KISS for people and solving "this" as I now understand it is a two part process! And the first part "is" management and people don't need a "Trainer" for that. 

The second part is "rehab" and yeah at some point ... that is going to require sending the dog a "Crystal Clear Message!" 



Muskeg said:


> Chip- anything to add? I know this is vague.


 Hmmm well I think I already have but ... since "something else got brought up" .... "The Time Out???" Yes .... that is cute. 

By and large people that "think" a "timeout will work???" Haven't met the "right dog??" But hey I guess more or less I tried it?? It was called a "freaking muzzle!" In fact I had "stumbled" onto a partial solution for rehab but "not thinking clearly" ... I chose the time out approach.

I tired "time out like this" ... since Rocky was "still" allowed free roam in the house! I figured well I will throw a muzzle on him and I did so. I think he would have it on for three or four days while near Gunther in the home. And yep sure enough he was perfect gentleman, while muzzled.

Having wore it for a few days and having no issues that I could observe,??? I "concluded" that Rocky had indeed spent enough time in "Time Out" thinking about what he'd done!

So off would come the muzzle and once again at the first "opportunity" he was "given" "BAM" it was on yet again! 

"Time Out's "are not what the "Trainers" that deal with dogs with "serious" aggression issues do! But hey if people wanna give it a try ... go for it! I'll just say ... Good luck with that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> Yes, but what specifically should this strong correction be?


Yeah kinda hard to get a "straight" answer isn't it?? 

By and large answers are out "there" you just have to know where to look. 

Lou, used to say the quickest and most humane way to train your dog is with the "Proper" use of an E-Collar! I know Jeff Gellman uses them for "aggressive dog rehab" and Food Protocol 's and "Dressage Whips" to monitor the client's dogs in group situations and sigh ... once again it all involves "Place" "Crates" and Management.

More "Old School??" would be a Dominant Dog Collar or .. if you're good enough a SLL! The SSL "would" have been my tool of choice but as "Rocky" in addition to "Attitude" had "Wobblers" using a SLL as A DDC was not an option for me, so at that time ... I had nothing???

At anyrate ... I'm going to "assume" you've tried the "timeout thing??" If it's been 10 years of "this crap?? Surely you must have??

But to answer your question or point you in the right direction, the answer for "most people" is in the first link I posted. 

But since then ... I've come up with "something else!" And it was "Astonishingly" simple, even "I" was impressed. 

Badly behaved "family pet" " "Herder Dog" at the point "I" encountered him .. he had bitten the owner four times and three strangers!! The owners (my friends ) have not been sued ... thus far?? Nevadans are a pretty tolerant bunch when it comes to badly behaved dogs ... apparently??

Anyway "Tool" free counter measure worked out fine!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh Maxtmills ... your gonna luv it! The link got taken down but I saw it thanks to MAWL, it kinda ticked her off. Cesar Milan and a "Pig Killing" Frenchie!!

Rehab at Cesar's ranch the Frenchie had killed the owners pet pig!! 

So she contacted Cesar for help with rehab, Cesar used his "Pigs" and then apparently chose not to keep a long line on the Little Beast??

Apparently the little Frenchie did not know who Cesar was and again apparently ??? Frenchies are pretty fast! No serious injuries involved to anyone but my take away was Cesar should have kept a "Drag Line on the dog!" 


No the dog did not kill the pig but he did tear his ear up pretty good. And managed to treat Cesar with a lack of respect in the process?? So if you're struggling with one of those guys, your in good company! I think I'll stick with Boxer's.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh Maxtmills ... your gonna luv it! The link got taken down but I saw it thanks to MAWL, it kinda ticked her off. Cesar Milan and a "Pig Killing" Frenchie!!
> 
> Rehab at Cesar's ranch the Frenchie had killed the owners pet pig!!
> 
> ...


The pig killing Frenchie was allowed free access to young pigs unmuzzled. They only showed close ups of one pig who was injured, but the Frenchie attacked a few pigs with serious intention during the short video clip. When a dog has a proven track record of killing a specific type of animal, a drag line is not a substitute for a muzzle for up close and personal interaction. His actions were no different than letting a proven cat killer loose and unmuzzled in a room full of kittens while he chased and tried to control the dog and calling it training. Disgusting!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Those of you asking for specifics. 

"If you can not correct your dog without danger to yourself, you will never be able to train the dog. Likewise, if you cannot gain the dog's respect without using an assortment of tools- whips, choke collars, sticks, etc.- you will never really teach him anything. Dogs establish their superior status with other dogs by coming in direct contact with them. It works the same way between a dog and trainer." 

Quote from "Training Lead Dogs" by Lee Fishback. I absolutely agree when it comes to dog-dog aggression. This quote does not apply nor was it meant to apply to things like simple obedience or trick training. 

I used Fishback's book to train my dogs to lead and pass other dogs in skijor harness and I really like what he writes about how to properly correct a dog for aggression mostly emphasizing timing, clarity (for the dog), and moving past a correction as soon as it is over. 

His book is well worth a read just to get into the head of a great "dog man" even if you have no interest in sled dog sports, or might not agree with all his methods. 

In short, as soon as you see any growling, stiff posture, lip curl, bullying, tip-toeing, whatever, correct this with exactly as hard a correction as needed to make that behavior stop instantly. Period. 

"How firm? Very firm. Physical corrections must always be completely understandable to a dog...any time one firm, direct action can take the place of three or four others, it should be used... Treat a dog like a dog; handle the dog as he would handle another dog." (Lee Fishback)


If the dog stops. That's it. Everyone moves on end of story.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Oh Maxtmills ... your gonna luv it! The link got taken down but I saw it thanks to MAWL, it kinda ticked her off. Cesar Milan and a "Pig Killing" Frenchie!!
> 
> Rehab at Cesar's ranch the Frenchie had killed the owners pet pig!!
> 
> ...


Wow-Frenchie killing a pig! As I have stated before, French Bulldogs are 100% bulldog in temperament. I have had a number of Frenchies, and make no mistake - although every dog book in existence describes them as rollicking little clowns, they are not a pug with bat ears! We have never allowed our smaller dogs to be brats- they ALL go by NILIF, and are not in the habit of spending all their time on our laps. When they are on the couch with us, it is because we have invited them. If they hop up on their own, they are told "off".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The pig killing Frenchie was allowed free access to young pigs unmuzzled. They only showed close ups of one pig who was injured, but the Frenchie attacked a few pigs with serious intention during the short video clip. When a dog has a proven track record of killing a specific type of animal, a drag line is not a substitute for a muzzle for up close and personal interaction. His actions were no different than letting a proven cat killer loose and unmuzzled in a room full of kittens while he chased and tried to control the dog and calling it training. Disgusting!


Well I did see it as you know. 

So post analysis discussion as it were. Apparently this was filmed life and Cesar did not chose to do a tie back, a drag leash or a freaking muzzle! He screwed up and the Frenchie handed him his ... "butt!" 

Personally I think he badly underestimated that dog?? Too much faith in the "Pssst" thing (although I have used it to great success myself, even though I have heard it's crap! Obviously ... the Frenchie did not watch Cesar's shows so he did not who Cesar was and treated him as such, no respect! )


And "apparently" those short little guys with there funny face are pretty serious freaking dogs ... who knew??? 

I saw MaxT's thread and quickly "retracted" my recommendation of one of them (as a second dog) on Boxerforum! Someone was looking for a smaller dog for their Boxer. Another Boxer owner had said those guys could be a handful and then I saw Maxt's, post and thought hmmmm???

So I retracted the Frenchie and went with the Boston Terrier majority!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> Wow-Frenchie killing a pig! As I have stated before, French Bulldogs are 100% bulldog in temperament. I have had a number of Frenchies, and make no mistake - although every dog book in existence describes them as rollicking little clowns, they are not a pug with bat ears! We have never allowed our smaller dogs to be brats- they ALL go by NILIF, and are not in the habit of spending all their time on our laps. When they are on the couch with us, it is because we have invited them. If they hop up on their own, they are told "off".


Pugs with Bat ears ... luv it! I almost had one many years ago as a first dog! But someone else got him at rescue so I went with an American Band Dawg! Not exactly the same but still in the family but yes serious freaking "dawgs" indeed!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Apparently the Frenchie did more than chew on the pig's ear but removed a piece. It also previously killed two pet pigs, not one. This was a horrible failure and the pigs paid the price for Cesar's irresponsibility with this dangerous dog.

On the brighter side, sheriff’s deputies and investigators with LA County Animal Control did not find his shenanigans all that amusing as they are investigating Cesar for animal cruelty.

'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan Under Investigation For Possible Animal Cruelty | NBC Southern California

I used to be fond of Frenchies but after reading MaxTMill's experience with them and watching this video, it is causing me to think twice about the breed.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I do like my Frenchies, however, I do not plan to get a fourth! :/ Mine have all come from a very reputable breeder/show person. There have been a large number of Russian imports who have been sold through brokers in recent years - these dogs are oversized and fraught with medical and disposition problems. Just look up the French Bulldog Rescue League (FBRL). Ninety percent of the Frenchies there for adoption are relinquished due to aggression and behavior problems. To Chip- we had two Boxers years ago, and they are fantastic family dogs.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Sorry- it is French Bulldog Rescue Network (FBRN), not League.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> I do like my Frenchies, however, I do not plan to get a fourth! :/ Mine have all come from a very reputable breeder/show person. There have been a large number of Russian imports who have been sold through brokers in recent years - these dogs are oversized and fraught with medical and disposition problems. Just look up the French Bulldog Rescue League (FBRL). Ninety percent of the Frenchies there for adoption are relinquished due to aggression and behavior problems. To Chip- we had two Boxers years ago, and they are fantastic family dogs.


WOW 90 percent??? Are you kidding me??? 

LOL talk about "sandbag" city!! Who would expect that from a "Frenchie!!!" They look so cute, yes "Boxers" are my "Dawgs" I have met and worked with a few and only "saw" one that I'd not want to meet at a "Dog Park." Behind a fence.,the owners brought "her" out so I could see her. when I mentioned Boxers. She was straining at the leas, did not make a sound and was starting at "Rocky" like he was raw meat!! 

Well I kinda sorta took this a bit off topic. Still at it's core the "Cesar" thing is "relevant" and topical! Badly behaved dogs and how best to deal with them.

In that regard it looks like "Cesar" should have given me a call and asked for advice and if he could borrow my long line?? Some strong language warning, Peter Caine has toned it down abit as it were. But he does raise some good points here.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPbYPX7o-2A

Question ... is the one?? Still launching "ambush predator" attacks at unexpected moments at you or others??


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Yes, Chip, my "ambush predator" is still in full force. He has been to the vet several times, had labs, etc. Everything within normal limits.But his behavior has become unpredictable and dangerous. With that bulldog underbite, when he bites, he sometimes tears the skin open (like butter!!), such as when he ripped my palm open, and other times he crushes the muscle tissue under the skin. I had a rock hard hematoma under the skin on my forearm that took months to resolve. When he bit my calf, he did not break the skin either, but my whole lower leg was purple for a few weeks. He had had several growths removed from his mouth and foot, and after talking to my old vet in the States, he theorized that Beaux may have some sort of brain issue, and all the training in the world cannot fix this. I have noticed that recently he is holding his head cocked to one side (no ear infection noted). I also spoke with my breeder in Texas, who said that at age 10, he could very well be suffering a neurological issue. With her support and advice, we have sadly decided to have Beaux put to sleep. I have never had to do this before. We had our first pug put to sleep when he became very very old, could not walk, was incontinent, and refused to eat anymore. But this situation is not so clear-cut. We will probably do this tomorrow, and have already talked to our vet. Not looking forward to it - it feels like murder, if that makes any sense. Sorry to take this thread way off course. Ugh. Not a fun thing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> Yes, Chip, my "ambush predator" is still in full force. He has been to the vet several times, had labs, etc. Everything within normal limits.But his behavior has become unpredictable and dangerous. With that bulldog underbite, when he bites, he sometimes tears the skin open (like butter!!), such as when he ripped my palm open, and other times he crushes the muscle tissue under the skin. I had a rock hard hematoma under the skin on my forearm that took months to resolve. When he bit my calf, he did not break the skin either, but my whole lower leg was purple for a few weeks. He had had several growths removed from his mouth and foot, and after talking to my old vet in the States, he theorized that Beaux may have some sort of brain issue, and all the training in the world cannot fix this. I have noticed that recently he is holding his head cocked to one side (no ear infection noted). I also spoke with my breeder in Texas, who said that at age 10, he could very well be suffering a neurological issue. With her support and advice, we have sadly decided to have Beaux put to sleep. I have never had to do this before. We had our first pug put to sleep when he became very very old, could not walk, was incontinent, and refused to eat anymore. But this situation is not so clear-cut. We will probably do this tomorrow, and have already talked to our vet. Not looking forward to it - it feels like murder, if that makes any sense. Sorry to take this thread way off course. Ugh. Not a fun thing.


Aww man I am so sorry to hear this! 

But those kinds of attacks?? OK that is crazy insane , and over the top!! If it's neurological?? No nothing can be done sometimes it happens. Jeff Gellman had to put his daughter's American Akita down, the dog was insane and unstable so yeah sometimes it happens ... so sorry, take care.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Thanks for the support, Chip. Beaux went to the Bridge today at the vet's office, with my husband petting and loving on him. I had to do it while I was still brave enough to go through with it.  Now I will see how my little pack re-adjusts. Sorry to the OP for taking his thread off-track! I am not extremely tech-saavy, but I think what I did is "hijacking". Sorry. :/


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Christy512 said:


> We have an 11 year old chocolate lab Hershey, a 2 1/2 year old GSD Sierra and a 9 month GSD Max. All three have gotten along until about a month or two ago. Sierra has always given in to Hershey and loves to play with Max. Hershey ignores Sierra, will play with Max
> occasionally, but has always let him know when she is done. The dynamics seemed fine, but recently Max challenging Hershey and has started charging Sierra, getting right up to her face and not letting her come up the steps, come over to see me, to go outside, etc. They still love to play with each other, but they have already gotten into a couple of fights. Sierra usually cowers and goes to another room. Max has gone to puppy socialization class, Basic 1 and is signed up for Basic 2, and we continue to work on his obedience training at home. Sierra has had Basic 1, one on one with a trainer to build her confidence and is currently in an entry level agility. It has gotten to the point where (when not playing) Sierra goes and lays in another room and won't come into the room with Max. Sierra used to lay with us, but now seems afraid to come by us with Max around. I'm hoping continued training for both will help, but I sure am ready for other suggestions.


Christy, I sent you a pm.


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