# Losing ball drive...



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Hey everyone,

I have a question for the experienced people on this forum - my dog is roughly 16 months old. He's always had great ball / tug drive which I've been trying to develop since he was a puppy. Lately, I'm seeing less and less in him. I haven't been correcting him hard nor have I "upped" the stakes much - maybe it's the heat because he does start off fast and slows down after a few minutes...

My question is, what should I do to bring it back? My thinking now is to stop all play and training for a few days and maybe take the ball out once a day and tease him with it just a little bit then put it away but I don't know... I read somewhere that I could try just playing with him i.e. stop training and just play some tug / fetch...

Any advice will be appreciated - do you see this happen in your dog? (fluctuating interest in the ball during a few weeks' span) What do you usually do if this happens? I know every situation is different and without seeing the training you can't make a good assessment (I'll bring this up next time I go to the club and get advice from the TD) but any advice will be helpful!

If you need any additional info, feel free to ask


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I have a question for the experienced people on this forum - my dog is roughly 16 months old. He's always had great ball / tug drive which I've been trying to develop since he was a puppy. Lately, I'm seeing less and less in him. I haven't been correcting him hard nor have I "upped" the stakes much - maybe it's the heat because he does start off fast and slows down after a few minutes...
> 
> ...


Don't have enough experience to speak to the drive change, but the first thing I would do is check his mouth and see if he has any sores, broken teeth... Could explain why he is into it at first then stops.

Past that, wait for the experts to chime it.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am having the same behavior with my dog. Part of it is the heat. I think part of it is that she only wants to do what she wants to do. After retreiving a few times she will stand and look at me like, "You idiot, if you stop throwing that thing away I won't have keep going to get it." She seems to quickly forget that she wanted to do it in the first place. But that's OK with me, she always fetches, however slowly ... as if she is duty-bound... and I get the message: enough already thank-you-very-much.


----------



## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think in Ivan Balabanovs 3rd tape when asked this question about when he stops retrieve with a dog he waits until the sides are heaving and then throws once more to build frustration. If you need to you might want to put a long flex line on the pup si when they are tired and want to stop you can gently guide them on that last throw right to you still. After all in Sch. we are asking the dog to do something for us not give them permission to do what they want. So maybe back off for a couple of days and then re-engage to build the drive.

Also have you maybe added in any ob or over the walls at club which use the retrieve and that is causing the problem?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would look beyond the ball or toy. Ideally, your dog should be working because it finds some level of joy and motivation in the work itself, and has a strong bond with you and respect for you. What do you mean by "losing ball drive?" Like can you do obedience and heeling without having a ball on you or near you, or will the dog only perform for a lure? How do you use the ball? I've noticed lately one of my dogs has been "flat" but it's not because he's losing any desire for his ball. I've over worked him a bit, and myself have been distracted while training. Also we both have had some health issues in the past few months. Even though we are a bit behind, we're basically taking a break from formal stuff to work on some "fun" things (lure coursing and dock diving titles). It's not the ball, it's me and how I've been handling. Even if your dog works like crazy, if he's only working for the ball I would still see that as a problem.


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I would look beyond the ball or toy. Ideally, your dog should be working because it finds some level of joy and motivation in the work itself, and has a strong bond with you and respect for you. What do you mean by "losing ball drive?" Like can you do obedience and heeling without having a ball on you or near you, or will the dog only perform for a lure? How do you use the ball? I've noticed lately one of my dogs has been "flat" but it's not because he's losing any desire for his ball. I've over worked him a bit, and myself have been distracted while training. Also we both have had some health issues in the past few months. Even though we are a bit behind, we're basically taking a break from formal stuff to work on some "fun" things (lure coursing and dock diving titles). It's not the ball, it's me and how I've been handling. Even if your dog works like crazy, if he's only working for the ball I would still see that as a problem.


Liesje, thanks for chiming in - I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "flat" because that's how I would describe how he looks.

Now as far as using the ball - I usually tease him to get him "amped" up with the ball or tug, then start fussing with the ball under my armpit or in my right hand. If it's under my armpit I'll give the release when I see something I like etc - at the release the dog will jump up and grab the toy from under my armpit and we'll tug for a minute. Rinse and repeat. If the ball is in my right hand I'll give the release and toss it over my head so it lands on my left side. If it's an exercise out of motion I'll give the command and reward either as soon as he completes it (toss it to him without looking backwards) or when I turn around (again toss it to him) or when I get back to him. You know, things like that... 

In any rate he'll give me attention regardless of where the ball is and will work for ball, food, etc. He'll perform the commands without being driven first but it'll be slower (which I think is ok no? He'll do the work but clearly the toy is a motivator for faster performance)...

Anyway, yes, flat is the word to describe it and it's been happening recently. 
I think I'll do something similar to what you're doing and just back off a little - perhaps I over worked him a bit as well...


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I had to do with my dog a while back is change how we did the heeling so that he was not dependent on the lure (or on my body language associated with the lure). Sometimes I still heel holding the ball behind my dog's head in my left hand, but my preferred way is to not have toys on me at all b/c I don't want it to become a crutch as it inadvertently was. I drop it on the ground and then when I want to reward, give the dog a release word and he runs to grab the ball, brings it back, and jumps on my chest so I will tug on the string.

like this





I also put a bit more compulsion into heeling which I found clarified things for him and sometimes I use lighter pops to amp him up even more.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

For me, fetching is a game and it is not important to me if she does or does not want to continue. It is not a command that she is (or should be) trained to obey. If I were 'training' her to fetch that would be another thing. Just as when I played with my kids: I didn't push them to play ball beyond the point where it was enjoyable. But I DID demand that they eat without putting their elbows on the table.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> For me, fetching is a game and it is not important to me if she does or does not want to continue. It is not a command that she is (or should be) trained to obey. If I were 'training' her to fetch that would be another thing. Just as when I played with my kids: I didn't push them to play ball beyond the point where it was enjoyable. But I DID demand that they eat without putting their elbows on the table.


But if he is using fetch as the reward, it should not be something he has to train the dog to do on command, otherwise it's not really a reward. A reward should be something the dog already enjoys. I think there's a different between being a game or reward, or something the dog is trained to obey.


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Liesje said:


> But if he is using fetch as the reward, it should not be something he has to train the dog to do on command, otherwise it's not really a reward. A reward should be something the dog already enjoys. I think there's a different between being a game or reward, or something the dog is trained to obey.


Yea I don't really make him fetch as a reward, I should probably make that clear. _sometimes_ when I put a little too much stress on him I'll toss the ball and let him fetch it to release the stress... Other than that it's usually a release command for him to grab the ball and we start tugging (it's on a string). When I work on his play retrieve, I still make him retrieve every time but the purpose here is different. He may not want to keep retrieving but as long as I don't overwork him I think enforcing him to fetch with a long line will help me later with the dumbbell exercises...

But no, when we are working on OB I don't usually make him fetch but rather release him and play some tug.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

ayoitzrimz said:


> - maybe it's the heat because he does start off fast and slows down after a few minutes...


For most dogs "Drive" does go down in the heat. In this case best bet is to keep the sessions short and train in the coolest time of the day. You should see him getting more amped up when the weather cools off. For some dogs with ultra uber drive, the heat does not make a difference.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

As a puppy matures he loses play drive. And just like most puppies stop playing with and chasing grasshoppers and blowing leaves, they also stop playing with the ball if it's not used correctly. The first thing to remember is that the ball should not be seen as an object that the dog has fun with. The ball should be used as a conduit for play and interaction with the handler. It should also be seen as a place for the dog to relieve stress caused by the training. 


The best way to do this IMO is to start very early with making stress on the dog then using play to relieve the stress. So the most simple thing that I do with baby puppies is have someone hold them on a line while I run away calling the pup. The puppy gets stressed by the restraint and wants to be with me. The puppy is released to come to me or come and find me. Sometimes I then play with the ball and other times I just play with the puppy. 


Another easy one is to let the dog chase the ball in hand then pin the puppy with your leg against a fence or wall. When the puppy stresses a bit about being pinned I release enough pressure to let the puppy wiggle out and get the ball.


But you are already past that point so let's talk about your dog. The first thing I would do with your dog is to make the play with you the object of the game. Throw the ball for the dog. When the dog brings it back don't take the ball. You should run away from the dog and every time the dog touches you with his muzzle or head give a big reaction and squeal, giggle and play with the dog. After 20 seconds or so, run away again and play when the dog touches (pushes) you. Do this a few times then grab the string on the ball and play tug. Let him "win" the ball a few times. Then hard out (ask your training director how you should do this with YOUR dog) the dog make him down and you pick up and throw the ball when the dog is settled into the down. Do this a few times and end the session. 


The goal of this:
· teach the dog that the fun with the ball comes from you.


· stress means that fun things are on their way


· stressful situations can be overcome 


· working with the handler means a higher level of fun than working alone


· teaches the dog that he controls the fun by complying with you


----------

